# Lactobacillus



## Batz (2/1/16)

With the interest in sour brews of late I was wondering where brewers get their lactobacillus from. Wyeast 5335 is great but fairly expensive, do brewers make a starter and split it up like yeasts?
I have tried 'Ethical Nutrients IBS Support 30 Capsules' with no luck at all

http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/49531/Ethical-Nutrients-IBS-Support-30-Capsules?utm_source=dgm&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Skimbit

I made a starter and kept them at the right temperate for a few days and found they did not sour at all?

I've heard you can use a yogurt culture as well?

Interested in you guys who have done this and brewed with it with good results, rather than I read somewhere...

Cheers
Batz


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## waggastew (2/1/16)

I just kegged a Berliner that I planned to use a wyeast culture on.....until I saw the price! Ended up using grain for a kettle sour.

Buy, grow and split seems a good option. Another may be to bottle some soured wort that tastes otherwise clean and store it cold. 

Yoghurt option seems a bit risky with no real advantages over using grain?


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## adryargument (2/1/16)

I used the berliner weiss yeast.
Manufacturer says that creating a starter will create a different % of microbes than orignally intended in that strain, and its to be pitched directly.
One of the sourest beers i have tasted was a 5+ liter starter of berliner weiss blend thrown into a 100L barrel.

I guess the Lacto overpowered the yeast in the starter, and caused an unbalanced ferment.

It was hell tasty.


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## Batz (2/1/16)

adryargument said:


> I used the berliner weiss yeast.
> Manufacturer says that creating a starter will create a different % of microbes than orignally intended in that strain, and its to be pitched directly.
> One of the sourest beers i have tasted was a 5+ liter starter of berliner weiss blend thrown into a 100L barrel.
> 
> ...


What, or who's yeast was that?

Edit:

OK this https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp630-berliner-weisse-blend

Can take several months, I'm talking a turbo Berliner Weisse by infecting with Lacto then fermenting.


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## Batz (2/1/16)

OK so I'm a typical home brew tight arse, when buying yeast I make a starter and break it into 10 vials. Can this be done with lacto? Obviously not on the stir plate, has anyone done this with success or am I going to find out myself?


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## adryargument (2/1/16)

White labs i believe.

Dont see why it cant be done on a stirplate, should provide better growth too.
People generally dont do this because fears of cross-contamination but if your semi decent in your cleaning procedures then it should be fine.

I have a 100L barrel thats 8 months old and taste low-med sour with a very clean crisp profile. This was made using 3 year old wyeast rosalare and lambic 3 blend that were accidentally frozen a few times. Considering the yeast calcs give the chance of survival 0% on a 23l batch..... i severely underpitched and the result is great. Bugs are a different sort of beast. Hench the cross contamination fear. But they should survive ww3.

My 5+L starter had lots of white fluffy bits. And i believe i may have stepped it up from 2L on a stirplate.


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## Batz (2/1/16)

adryargument said:


> White labs i believe.
> 
> Dont see why it cant be done on a stirplate, should provide better growth too.
> People generally dont do this because fears of cross-contamination but if your semi decent in your cleaning procesdures then it should be fine.
> ...


A stir plate is used to introduce oxygen into the wort growing yeast. You don't want oxygen in your Lacto. This is the reason I said no stir plate.


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## paulyman (2/1/16)

Just starting my journey into sour beers, I found this piece of info from The Mad Fermentationist, yet to try it out.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/03/maintaining-brett-and-lacto-cultures.html


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## Batz (2/1/16)

paulyman said:


> Just starting my journey into sour beers, I found this piece of info from The Mad Fermentationist, yet to try it out.
> 
> http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/03/maintaining-brett-and-lacto-cultures.html


Yes seen that of course.
I have also seen how brewers keep 5lt carboys of their favorite cultures. I think that's me!


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## Jack of all biers (3/1/16)

Batz said:


> OK so I'm a typical home brew tight arse, when buying yeast I make a starter and break it into 10 vials. Can this be done with lacto? Obviously not on the stir plate, has anyone done this with success or am I going to find out myself?


A really cheap way to obtain a Lactobacillus culture, which is also fresh every time, as described below by the tried and tested Graham Wheeler. It may not be scientific, but the old and tested methods usually work and Wheeler never seems to get it wrong.

Lactobacillus inoculation - p.178 Brew Classic European Beers at Home, Wheeler/Protz 2001, CAMRA ISBN 1-85249-1 17-5

_"make up a micro-mash using crushed pale malt at 65-66C in a domestic vacuum-flask and stand for one-and-a-half hours. Cool, or allow to cool naturally, to 50C, mix in a quantity of uncrushed malt, fit the cap and stand for 24-48 hours. Alternatively, make up a malt extract solution of about OG 1040-50, boil for fifteen minutes, cool to 60C and add to the vacuum-flask, when the solution has cooled to 50C, add a quantity of uncrushed malt, fit the cap and stand for 24-48 hours. In both cases the culture is used by straining the fluid from the grains and adding to the fermenter. L. delbrueckii has a glucose requirement, and the bacteria is unlikely to compete well in the presence of active brewers yeast. In the case of Berliner wheat beers it is usual to add the bacteria culture a few hours before the yeast to give the bacteria a head start. In some instances the yeast and bacteria are added together."_

The problem with the information provided by Wheeler is that of obtaining consistency in the sourness of the brews. I'd say his last sentence about adding them together in some instances is due to his experiences at the various breweries that make the commercial Berliner Weisse and the lack of detailed information they provided him. The only receipe he has for a Berliner Weisse in the same book (p.161, Kindl Weisse) talks of adding the L. delbruckii "a few hours before adding the (yeast)". So even then he doesn't give a greatly reliable time frame for the brewer to obtain consistency. In saying that, I would give his method a go if you are reluctant to fork out cash for the commercial cultures available.


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## aaronpetersen (3/1/16)

Batz said:


> OK so I'm a typical home brew tight arse, when buying yeast I make a starter and break it into 10 vials. Can this be done with lacto? Obviously not on the stir plate, has anyone done this with success or am I going to find out myself?


I freeze all my yeast in vials in glycerol and have done the same with the WY5223 Lacto brevis strain that was released a while ago. I recently built up a starter with no problems at all. I did use a stir plate for my starter on slow speed to help keep the bacteria in suspension. Some really good info on different Lacto strains and starters here: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus


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## Batz (3/1/16)

Thanks for all the answers guys, interesting reading.

OK so what I really want to know, W5335 lactobacillus. Has anyone built up a starter and split it into vials for later use? I'm talking W5335 here which is lactobacillus only no Saccharomyces or Brettanomyces added.

Batz


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## antiphile (3/1/16)

Sorry Batz, but I can't answer your specific questions and haven't used any of the lacto variants. However, in the past, Nick from Barleyman has had L. brevis (WLP672) and L. delbrueckii (WLP677). If it's not a huge time issue, I'm sure he'd order it in in his next WLP batch.

Cheers


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## Pjp49rg (8/1/16)

Batz, currently have a Berliner kettle souring as we speak with 5335. Planning on taking some of the wort pre-boil and storing for later use much the same as with yeast slurry. Have dropped ph from 4.43 to 4.13 in 24hrs with a 1 liter starter added to the wort, so the starter works and cannot see why storing some of the wort would not... Wheats do 100ml at a time so I'd guess that might be enough. Also TBN had a show on the sour hour recently where one of the Brewers was using the same culture repeatedly with good effect. Might have been jester king out of Texas I think.


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## motman (18/1/16)

I have had a couple of very tasty beers soured with lacto from inner health plus tablets by an innovative Brewer at our brew club. I think they even state the count of bugs for ease of pitching.


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## Beersuit (19/1/16)

I recently went to a kettle sour class with croft and newstead brewing where they were adding 1 yes just 1 wy 5335 pack to 1000l. The results were spot on soured to a ph of 3.3 to 3.8 depending on the beers and when they stopped it. 
You should have no drama splitting a back bats and not having to worry about a starter to get bang for your buck.


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## Dan2 (21/1/16)

Batz - A small amount of grain is the easiest way to inoculate. Cheap too!
I'm fermenting my 4th Berliner now. 1st was soured with WY5335, and each one since with 100g uncrushed malt (in hop tea bags for easy removal).
PM if you want a detailed recipe (also happy to post here).


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## Motabika (21/1/16)

I just picked up some Gigayeast Gb110, this is known to be a fast souring lacto strain. Apparently can sour a 1.045 wort in 3-4 weeks at 22c, if co pitched with sacch


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## GalBrew (21/1/16)

As AaronP stated above you should really check out the Milk the Funk Wiki. The amount of knowledge on that site regarding all types of sour and funky beers is second to none. I would trying again with L.Plantarum, the general consensus seems to be that it is a super fast souring lacto. Just follow the methods they describe for starter production and souring. Perhaps your probiotic capsules had not been stored optimally and you got a big decline in viability?


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## Batz (21/1/16)

GalBrew said:


> As AaronP stated above you should really check out the Milk the Funk Wiki. The amount of knowledge on that site regarding all types of sour and funky beers is second to none. I would trying again with L.Plantarum, the general consensus seems to be that it is a super fast souring lacto. Just follow the methods they describe for starter production and souring. Perhaps your probiotic capsules had not been stored optimally and you got a big decline in viability?


Cheers
Yes I have been following Milk the Funk for quite sometime. Very happy with my latest berliner weisse using 5335 but keen to try Dan2's method as well.


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## Tex N Oz (21/1/16)

If you want straight lactobacillus then you should think about inoculating with Yukult. LsA (also known as LsC) is one incredibly tough microbe. 
One of only a handful that can handle the digestive tract. It's very sour and doesn't make good yoghurt. Yoghurt is usually LsY I believe.
I inoculate skim milk (UHT pastuerized) and ferment for 36 hours at 38°C. Turns into straight yoghurt in 72 hours and because it's so pH tolerant, it won't self-limit and over-sours.
would probably do very well in a beer if you made a starter out of Yukult, lactose and some peptides or a random yeast nutrient.


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## Grainer (21/1/16)

I just use a bit of apple juice to help the culture and use lacto plantarium in all cultures to help out with head and taste


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## Batz (21/1/16)

Grainer said:


> I just use a bit of apple juice to help the cul Chhersture and use lacto plantarium in all cultures to help out with head and taste


 Cheers Grainer, where are you getting your lacto plantarium.


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## Batz (24/1/16)

I see W5335 is not recommended for over 10 IBU. I understand this but just wondering if anyone has pushed this out?


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## Dan2 (25/1/16)

Batz said:


> I see W5335 is not recommended for over 10 IBU. I understand this but just wondering if anyone has pushed this out?


Won't be a problem if you're only using it to kettle sour then add hops after.
If you're adding it to the fermentor however........


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## Grainer (25/1/16)

The chemist.. good source of plantarum.. there is only a few probiotic that has only plantarum... i got my source from a friend that used capsules. Enleva and Metagenics from memory only have plantarum if you can find them.


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## takai (25/1/16)

I sour mash, so generally use Lacto P from the IBS support capsules in a corny for souring.


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## Grainer (25/1/16)

Yeah but that has a mixed culture.


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## takai (25/1/16)

No it doesnt. This stuff is 100% Lacto P


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## Salt (3/10/16)

Batz said:


> With the interest in sour brews of late I was wondering where brewers get their lactobacillus from. Wyeast 5335 is great but fairly expensive, do brewers make a starter and split it up like yeasts?
> I have tried 'Ethical Nutrients IBS Support 30 Capsules' with no luck at all
> 
> http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/49531/Ethical-Nutrients-IBS-Support-30-Capsules?utm_source=dgm&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Skimbit
> ...


Hey Batz.

_TLR; Have used Ethical Nutrient IBS L.Plantarum caps successfully twice for kettle souring Berliner. Lovely Lactic bite and drops pH well. So worth trying again._

I have just made my 3rd Berliner Weisse using the Kettle Souring method to great success. My first batch was inoculated with Lacto from Raw Grains, however soon got onto a pure strain with the desire of repeat-ability. 
I use the Ethical Nutrient Probiotics that you have listed and for my 2nd and 3rd batches this worked really well. 

I will go into a bit of detail that may help...I got a fair bit of advice from a local Brewer here in NZ who uses these Probiotics to do kettle sours on a home brew scale. Here they cost me $30 for 30 caps, but using 5 caps means 6 batches - which is significantly cheaper than White Labs which is $18 a vial.

I have a fairly standard Berliner Weisse recipe that is 60% Pils, 35% Wheat and 5% Acid Malt. Mash at 65c to keep dry. OG of my latest batch was 1.042. Mash and Sparge like normal. Heat up to boiling to sanitize my wort chiller. Cool down to 45c. Purge kettle head space with Co2 (i dont bubble through as I have already done a short boil that helps remove O2 from the wort. Adjust pH to around 4.5 with Lactic Acid.Add the contents of 5 caps for 23Lts. Cover kettle with sanitized Gladwrap and then place lid on. Wrap in blankets and let temp fall on its own. I leave for 48hrs. pH was down to 3.2 after 48hrs of kettle souring. I then Boiled for 60min (eliminating any chance of DMS from the pils malt). I added about a few pellets of Amarillo for good measure (prob 2-4ibus worth) for 10mins and then cooled and pitched M44 at 19c.

The Beer finished fermenting in around a week, down to FG 1.008. I have just split this batch in two, half is now sitting on Raspberries, half will be bottled as is.

Post Kettle Souring the wort had a lovely Lemony tartness, along with the sugar from the malt, it tasted like a Honey/Lemon tea. After fermentation, it has a very pronounced Lemony Lactic sourness and is very clean. pH 3.2 is pretty tart, but just the way I like it.

By no means an expert in Kettle Sours but three successful batches from 3 attempts...if you have any questions please feel free to ask!

Cheers
Salt


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## fdsaasdf (14/1/17)

takai said:


> No it doesnt. This stuff is 100% Lacto P


Reviving an old thread, but search doesn't seem to turn up other threads that discuss use of this technique to sour. I am keen to give the IBS tablets a try with a 20L batch, should I just bring to the boil for a minute and then crack open 4 of these when I've got the temp back under 60 C?


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## huez (14/1/17)

Under 35c is the range i think you want to be in, don't think they will survive at 60c. I kept mine at 30c and it still took over 48hours to get to 3.6pH. Some people report it taking under 24hours to get to 3.3pH


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## earle (14/1/17)

I did mine at 40C.

A point to note is that yeast struggle at lower pH. AT 40C I got down to about 3.7-3.8 after 24 hours, then I did the hop boil etc. With only one pack of US05 it took a few days to get going. Next time I would pitch at least 2 packs and rehydrate the yeast before pitching.


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## Dozer71 (14/1/17)

In the midst of my first Berliner Weisse, Grain bill of pilsner and wheat mashed to 64C (BIAB method) to OG of 1.03 as expected. Brought to the boil, then covered with cling wrap straight away put lid on and dropped the temp overnight as don't have chilling facilities. Was 40C in the morning and pitched a 5 pack of Yakult (L.Casei at 6.5B per vial). Covered with cling wrap again and sleeping bag and left for 2 days. Have read that applying CO2 not as important when using pure strains (i.e. not grains), plus I don't have any. The temp dropped to 33C over the 2 days. Removed the cling wrap to be hit with a smell I have never encountered before. Checked all the off odours that can occur with souring and didn't appear to be any of them, but it was strong and I can't quite describe it. Boiled for 60 mins which generally killed the stench and the end of boil wort had a nice tartness about it. No chilled over night and pitched 1272 yeast which is 3 days in at the moment.

I went for Yakult following reading the Milk the Funk wiki with goodbelly probiotic drink, so it seemed an easy option to start with. 

Next time will look to reduced the water for the BIAB mash, boil, then add ice cold water to chill to around straight after instead of waiting over night. Also looking at a yoghurt culture starter (Chobani no fat greek yoghurt) as outlined in Milk the Funk or even the IBS pills.


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## fdsaasdf (15/1/17)

Thanks for the replies, that's very helpful. I don't know why I typed 60C in the previous question, I meant to say 40C 

Also thanks earle for the heads-up about yeast struggling with low pH, I usually overpitch harvested US05 so hopefully it won't be an issue but I'll keep it in mind when preparing to pitch.


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## HoppyDays (15/1/17)

Hi Batz, 

I haven't used it but have tried some great sour's using Yakult, 2 x bottles I believe, I'm yet to have made a sour but plan on having play.

Good luck


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## capsicum (3/2/17)

Reading this thread got me pretty pumped on trying my first sour a few weeks ago so thought I'd share my experience. As a proof of concept I thought I'd give a stovetop berliner weisse with the Irritable Bowel Syndrome tablets a go. It was good.

Picked up a bottle of 30 Ethical Nurtients "IBS Support" capsules identical to the picture takai posted from a chemist for about $25. (Minor detail - the pharmacist told me to put them straight in the fridge but having no fridge available at work they stayed in my backpack in air con at work for the afternoon and were exposed to high 30s on the ride home before going in the fridge.)

I mashed 1kg pale ale malt in a mini stovetop BIAB. Got it _just_ to boiling then turned off an cooled, ended up with 4.5L at 1.051.

At 35° I broke two capsules of the IBS support (this would allegedly be 40 billion cells) into the wort and left it in the spare bathroom for 5 days. No CO2 purging or temp control, it probably sat at mid to high 20s. I went away during this stage so didn't get to monitor but when I got back I tasted a bit and it was pretty sour! I don't have a pH meter but to taste it was just what I was after.

At this point I did boil for 20 min (no hops, mainly to get the hot break as it was still very turbid), the cooled and pitched 60ml of foamy yeast goodness from the US05 krausen on a pale I had going. Fermented at 18°, bumped up to 22° for a few days at the end. Not much froth during the whole ferment but gravity dropped to 1.012.

Cleared up with some gelatin in my new little 4L beerkat keg.

It is bloody delicious. Pretty tart but none of the unusual "funk" aromas. Not great head but there's enough not to look weird. I'll definitely give this a go at full size, maybe split and do half with apricots.


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## fdsaasdf (27/3/17)

I just cubed my first kettle sour attempt, 42L out at 1.040. Mashed 5kg of wheat and 5 kg of BB ale malt, pretty close to what I expected as the first run with my completed 82/56 1V setup.

Followed the IBS tablet method, pitching 5 caps into ~50L after boiling post-mash for 10mins. In 2 days ph dropped something around 3.8, +/- the error of my ph strips.

Very pleased with the taste out of the kettle. Seems tart, sour and dry - hopefully these characteristics will translate to the finished beer.


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## dibbz (27/3/17)

I've also found 5 capsules of ethical nutrients in the grainfather at 33c for 36 hours works great. It lacks a bit of funk tho.


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## fdsaasdf (27/3/17)

I missed a vital step in my explanation, I actually left the wort to cool ambiently (lid on the kettle) for 12hrs by which time it was 39deg and time to pitch - contact time for the lacto was only 36hrs.

Agree that a lack of funk is characteristic of the pure-lacto kettle sour however that's exactly what I am after - most who drink at my bar aren't keen on sours so the plan is to refine & educate to end up with refreshing crowd pleaser. Or a keg to myself...


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## earle (28/3/17)

Yep, you get a pretty clean sourness from kettle souring with lacto. Very refreshing and suited to particular styles like Berliner Weisse. If you want funk and Brett you'll need to slow sour. I recently did a kettle sour with the same grain bill as a Flanders Red. Very enjoyable but not the same complexity. I reckon the key is not to call your sour something its not so drinkers have the right expectation - I've called mine a Kettle Soured Red so people aren't expecting a proper Flanders Red when a kettle sour won't meet those expectations.


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