# Coopers Lager Done In 24h?



## mick8882003 (19/3/09)

Put down a coopers lager tuesday, checked the SG last night and it was about 1014. Now I find it hard to belive that it has fermented out in 24H.

It was fermented with the can yeast, two cans of lager and two packets of dex.

Cheers MIck

Edit, was made up to 38L


----------



## Swinging Beef (19/3/09)

Mick C said:


> Put down a coopers lager tuesday, checked the SG last night and it was about 1014. Now I find it hard to belive that it has fermented out in 24H.
> It was fermented with the can yeast, two cans of lager and two packets of dex.
> Cheers MIck


It is quick.
Did you check what it started at?
Has the fermenter got a "high tide" mark, indicating the krausen has formed and gone down again?


----------



## MHB (19/3/09)

I suspect the thread title should read

Coopers Lager Done Too Hot

MHB


----------



## mick8882003 (19/3/09)

The "tide mark" goes all the way up the fermenter, whatever it was it went off. 

Oh yes and I had to stick my hand in it (sanitised of course) to retrieve the grommet.


----------



## mick8882003 (19/3/09)

MHB said:


> I suspect the thread title should read
> 
> Coopers Lager Done Too Hot
> 
> MHB



No, not at all, never went over 28 and has been sitting on 24ish.


----------



## mick8882003 (19/3/09)

The only thing I can think of is I used two packets of yeast, being a double brew.

Tell me is it likely its infected?


----------



## Swinging Beef (19/3/09)

I dont think it is _likely_ it is infected, but sticking your hand into it isnt really a good idea.
24 - 28 deg is a tad on the warm side.
Lagers like to ferment down at around 10 - 15 deg, some even less!
Lovely aromatic stinky warm fermented Belgian Ales dont realy like to go over 19 deg.

Check your hydrometer every day for three days.
If it doesnt change, its all good.
Bottle or keg as usual.
Drink beer, make beer.
Relax


----------



## .DJ. (19/3/09)

Mick C said:


> No, not at all, never went over 28 and has been sitting on 24ish.



too hot!

aim for 18-20 for an ale yeast (which i suspect it was....)

24 is too hot and 28 is crazily too hot!! :icon_vomit:


----------



## Adamt (19/3/09)

You're mash brewing and you still ferment at 24-28C? Oh dear.

Edit: Referring to AG beer in signature.


----------



## Katherine (19/3/09)

MHB said:


> I suspect the thread title should read
> 
> Coopers Lager Done Too Hot
> 
> MHB



ahhhh quicker & warmer the better my kit brewer dad would say... wierdly his beer is very drinkable! wont have any of my fancy stuff!


----------



## lczaban (19/3/09)

Hey Mick,



Mick C said:


> No, not at all, never went over 28 and has been sitting on 24ish.



I'm not sure what the temperature "de rigeur" was when you used to do HB, but the consensus now is that ale yeasts should be fermented ideally at between 18 and 20 degrees Celsius. Not that 24-28 degrees is outrageously high, but it would explain why the yeast has gone off like a frog in a sock....

Without going through other threads to find out, you'll probably find that the kit yeast with those Cooper's Lager kits is either a proper lager yeast (in which case the ideal ferment temperature is between 10 and 12 degrees) or a combination of both lager and ale yeasts. Either way it would be too high for the yeast to perform adequetely, and your yeast would have ripped through all your fermentables. 



Mick C said:


> The only thing I can think of is I used two packets of yeast, being a double brew.



Overpitching would not have helped your cause here either. One yeast sachet would have been ample. Btw, I'm not sure where you are getting your HB supplies but you can get quality dry yeast sachets for about $4-$5 that will completely run rings around the yeasties that are under the kit lid.

The fact that the vast majority of your fermentables in your brew were simple sugars (ie the malts in the kit and the dex) would have contributed to the fast fermentation as this is perfect yeast food. I can imagine they would have been having an absolute field day....



Mick C said:


> Tell me is it likely its infected?



To answer this, I'll refer to your other post...



Mick C said:


> Oh yes and I had to stick my hand in it (sanitised of course) to retrieve the grommet.



As much as you'd like to think you've sanitised your hand, I would pretty well put everything I've got on saying that it probably hasn't got rid of every bug you need to kill to keep your beer/wort infection free. You'd have to do something similar to a surgical scrub-up in order to get this right. The more sensible thing would have been to leave the airlock removed, cover it with glad wrap/bottle cap/other barrier and wait it out. As part of her uni training, a nurse friend of mine had to dip her hands in a UV die and then clean her hands as thoroughly as possible. It was pretty amazing how much dye there was left on her hands when she held them back up to a UV light after she had spent a good 5 - 10 mins scrubbing away at her hands. What hope have you got of getting rid of all the bugs in and around your fingernails/creases/knuckle joints??

What was the brew size? Did you take an OG reading before pitching the yeast? I'd be tempted to wait some more time in order for this brew to fully ferment out, which you can tell has happened because you get stable SG readings over a three day period. At least if you decide to bottle up this brew you won't be wondering about whether you have a batch of bottle bombs waiting to go off. :unsure: 

IMHO you may or may not have stuffed up this brew, but either way you can probably chalk this one up to re-experiencing the process. If you do decide to bottle it you'll probably find it will take a while to come good in the bottle, and even then it probably won't be the quality of brew that is going to scoop the pool at any competition any time soon. Reacquaint yourself with some of the different threads (esp the airlocked ones at the top of the Kits and Extracts page) for some good advise and hopefully your next brew turns out better than this one! :icon_cheers: 

Looking at SB's post, I'd say that for all the things that could have been done differently you'll more than likely have something that you can drink and get drunk from. If all else fails, empty out the bottles and get that next brew going!!! :beerbang:


----------



## brettprevans (19/3/09)

im still worried about the thinking that a grommet would do more damage to the beer than a great big dirty hand goin into the beer.

un i think consensus is that its fermented out ultra fast b/c of the high temp. you will have a lot of fusil alc there. so some bads tastes and headaches coming. probably have som green apple cider tastes in there also.

why are you still doing kits (and some really bad kits) if you can AG. and could understand kits and bits but tins of goo and dex?!!!

But whatever you like drinking is your business and so long as your homebrewing its all good.


----------



## HoppingMad (19/3/09)

Yup same as all the above.

If you brew coopers kits at high temperatures you will get quite a 'homebrew twang' to the taste. To avoid it, brew low at 18-20degrees. You'll get a better result.

Other posts have covered that most lager kits don't use a lager yeast - and Coopers certainly doesn't (theirs is ale) so you have to brew at the perfect ale temperature as above. To get rid of the twang altogether - it's simple, don't use a coopers kit yeast. Go into a Home Brew Store and grab a pack of Fermentis S-04 or S-05 dry yeast. They cost about 5 bucks or less and make your beer five times better.

I used to brew a lot of Coopers Lager kits in my uni days with the kit yeasts. We would ferment in the middle of summer with a heater pad underneath and temperatures would hit between 28 and 34 degrees - the brews always took under two days- about 1.5 days and the always tasted terrible. But we didn't care as we just wanted the booze out of the drum. It is possible to brew this fast, I've done it, but the result on the tastebuds is :icon_vomit: 

If you have a brew finishing in 24 hours then regardless of what your temperature says at the end of the day - this beer is fermenting at over 30 degrees to finish that quickly. You must have it in front of a window, a hot tin shed or other hot area, or have a heater pad on it. It is clearly heating up while you have left it unattended. In warmer months, you can easily brew these babies without a heater - as room temperature is around 20 degrees in most places.

It won't be infected, it will just have plenty of 'twang'. You'll drink this one, realise what you did wrong and make a better batch next time. Welcome to the wonderful journey of brewing. We've all been there.

Hopper.


----------



## Bribie G (19/3/09)

When I started my current incarnation as a brewer last June the weather was typical QLD winter with 10 degrees at night and 24 during the day so I just fermented out on the work bench. As the weather warmed up from September onwards it was definitely getting way too hot for brewing and I was not only getting two and three day ferments but picking up pretty nasty off flavours. The ambient in the garage was well into the high 20 and early 30s by October.

What really convinced me was when I went AG in December and finally went very strict temperature control with a dead fridge, plus a doonah and ice blocks arrangement for my ales. I ferment at 15 to 17 in the dead fridge and even during the summer have kept the ales going nicely at under 20 wrapped in the doonah.

I'm looking forward to winter again when I can achieve 10 - 12 and can attempt real lagers.

I'll be bottling an old ale on Monday that will have been in the fermenter for two weeks exactly at 19 - 20 degrees. Back in my beginning days a two week ferment would have had me running around in angst imagining stuck fermentation, shyte yeast etc. Now I look back and realise how much I was chancing it by not having temperature control.

A two day ferment would be nice however :lol: but no free lunches. :unsure:


----------



## Hutch (19/3/09)

As everyone has said, excessive temperature is the culprit here. Often the stick-on thermometers can be several degrees out, not giving you an accurate reading of the temperature inside the fermenter. An active ferment also generates a sizable amount of heat, often raising the wort temp by a few degrees over ambient. So from this I would suspect your wort fermented in the high 20's, if not low 30's.

A second point to mention is that fermenting low does not necessarily imply it will take weeks. If you pitch the right quantity of a good ale yeast, and oxygenate your wort well, you can expect it to ferment out in well under a week. 

As a case in point, 2 weeks ago I made an AG Coopers Pale Ale clone, using a healthy starter of recultured coopers yeast. It fermented out completely in under 3 days, at a constant 18 degrees, and is one of the best beers I've ever made (drinking at 2 weeks!). So the old addage that low temps = long slow ferements is not necessarily always the case. Some yeast strains will get the job done quickly even at the bottom end of their range. My advice to all new brewers is to ditch the kit yeast, and fork out a few extra $ for a decent yeast, and try fermenting it at a constant temp around 18-20 deg. The results speak for themselves.

And in terms of "kit twang", this is largely due to staling of the extract in the kit. High temps and crap yeast impart fusils, while sugar imparts a cidery tang (the usual "crap homebrew" character that we've all come across). The best way to minimise "twang" in kit brewing is to get the freshest kit you can. Obviously using better yeasts and temp control help to improve the end result, but the twang is largly due to the age of the kit. My best kit ever was a Coopers Euro lager only a few months from manufacture (from the supermarket), fermented with S189 yeast at 12 degrees, with some DME and dex. Hardly a trace of "twang", and very close to a good AG lager.


----------



## blackbock (19/3/09)

24 hours? That's got to be a record, even if the result is utterly undrinkable.


----------



## manticle (19/3/09)

All this temperature schningle makes me wonder why on earth they sell those brew belt things at k-mart. 

When I first started brewing with kits I knew nothing about slow fermentation being better for the beer.


----------



## Adamt (19/3/09)

There's nothing wrong with fast fermentation. A good, clean ale fermentation can be accomplished at 20C in 2-4 days, providing you pitch enough healthy yeast.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone has mentioned; 1014 is not done.


----------



## buttersd70 (19/3/09)

Adamt said:


> There's nothing wrong with fast fermentation. A good, clean ale fermentation can be accomplished at 20C in 2-4 days, providing you pitch enough healthy yeast.
> 
> Oh yeah, I don't think anyone has mentioned; 1014 is not done.



slight correction, adam....

1014 is not _necesarilly _(sp?) done. Depends on what went in it. But I sees ya point.

edit: and agree, fast does not necesarily mean bad....I get fg usually in 3 days or so, with a couple extra to be sure. But thats healthy yeast, at a good rate, into a healthy wort.....different kettle of kittens fish.


----------



## Pollux (19/3/09)

manticle said:


> All this temperature schningle makes me wonder why on earth they sell those brew belt things at k-mart.
> 
> When I first started brewing with kits I knew nothing about slow fermentation being better for the beer.



I brw in my garage, in winter it can be 5 or 6 deg in there overnight....

A belt wouldn't go astray on those occasions..


----------



## juzz1981 (19/1/10)

Hi,

Yes that does seem quick for fermentation and probably due to high ferment temp, although I put down a Coopers Draught using the kit yeast and making a starter sit for about 12hrs, i added the active yeast and fermentation took approx 3 days to fully ferment out @ 19c and tasted fine with no detectable "twang".

Although yeast starters are generally not recommended for dry yeast, quick fermentation can be sucessfully achieved in a short time


----------



## jonocarroll (19/1/10)

juzz1981 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes that does seem quick for fermentation and probably due to high ferment temp, although I put down a Coopers Draught using the kit yeast and making a starter sit for about 12hrs, i added the active yeast and fermentation took approx 3 days to fully ferment out @ 19c and tasted fine with no detectable "twang".
> 
> Although yeast starters are generally not recommended for dry yeast, quick fermentation can be sucessfully achieved in a short time









OP was last seen in October. What an odd first post. Anyhoo, 19*C is quite different to 28*C.

Edit: Welcome!


----------



## RobH (19/1/10)

wonder if OP will come back and tell us how it tasted in the end


----------



## Nick JD (20/1/10)

If the OP is brewing at ambient temps then I would think 24-28 _are the maximum temps._ 

What is the temp at 5am on a day that's 26 at 3pm?

You might find that his beer (38L is a pretty large thermal mass) brewed almost exactly at 20C. 

BTW - Fermentis advise up to 24 for their ale yeasts. I find that what they print on their product is the truth (they've possibly even conducted some research into their own product!). 24 is the threshold for good ale using this yeast ... not 19. 

And again - _average daily _temperature. Not maximum.

I've found going too low temperatures with ale yeasts takes all the yeast character out of the beer. I want esters and fruitiness from an ale, otherwise I'll turn the temp down and brew lagers. At 18, US05 produces the world's most bland ale. Great for your Aussie Lager swilling mates, but BORING.


----------



## RobH (22/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> I've found going too low temperatures with ale yeasts takes all the yeast character out of the beer. I want esters and fruitiness from an ale, otherwise I'll turn the temp down and brew lagers. At 18, US05 produces the world's most bland ale. Great for your Aussie Lager swilling mates, but BORING.




Mate I am glad you brought that up because it has been a question in the back of my mind for a while now, and whilst I agree temperature control is required to some degree, maybe alot of us have been a bit too stringent with it's application to ales .. and it stands to reason that different yeasts perform optimally at different temperatures.


----------

