# Nc 10min Ipa



## loikar (15/12/11)

I just poured 20L of unhopped wort @ 90c+ onto 200g of hops in the cube.

It kinda felt wrong


Batch Size: 20.00 L 
Boil Size: 33.58 L
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 16.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 54.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBGrain 94.3 % 
0.30 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) Grain 5.7 % 
200.00 gm Cascade [5.80%] (10 min) Hops 54.1 IBU 
1 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) Yeast-Ale


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## doon (15/12/11)

nice let us know how it turns out!


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## jacknohe (15/12/11)

It does feel wrong... yet so right... Well with 200g of Cascade!!! :icon_drool2:


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (15/12/11)

Just be sure to post photos and results :chug:


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## MarkBastard (15/12/11)

Very interested to see how this turns out.


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## keifer33 (15/12/11)

It will turn out awesome. It does feel weird but sometimes weird feeling things are the best. I have made a funnel out of a juice bottle to get the hops into the cube easier. I am addicted to this method atm.


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## Gar (15/12/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Very interested to see how this turns out.



Indeed, I must say I don't have a lot of faith but it would be awesome to be proven wrong.

Are you chilling the cube in any way BF?

*edit* and are the hops pellets?


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## vaanderal (15/12/11)

I'm curious to know, wouldn't this be too sweet without the addition of bittering hops into the boil?


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## bkmad (15/12/11)

I'm keen to hear the results of this as well. I'd love to try a 10min IPA but I don't have a chiller and haven't had the guts to try what you're doing yet.


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## cdbrown (15/12/11)

vannderal - The load of hops at the end is providing the bitterness as well as aroma and flavour. The later in the boil the hops are added, the bitterness is extracted (or the more hops you need for a particular level of bitterness). Being dumped in the cube is pretty much the same as being dumped into the boil with 10min left.


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## Gar (15/12/11)

This is one of those threads where I wish I could fast forward time for the results, my last beer was a 10min IPA but I was too scared to no-chill it...

Good luck mate, hope its good :beerbang:


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## loikar (15/12/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> Just be sure to post photos and results :chug:



Yeah, I will.

This is basically an experiment to see how much bitterness NC adds.
I have a feeling I might get around 60IBU but wont have the aroma it needs due to the NC.

I had a bout of infections using my immersion chiller and changed to NC to combat the the funky air that was causing it.
I'm yet to produce a beer that is even close to the IPA's and APA's I was producing when I was chilling.

the 20min hop reduction works to combat the bitterness when NC'ing but there is certainly no up-front hop aroma.
Using a chiller definitely locks in the flame out addition and provides that up-front hop aroma.
However, for a malt driven beer, NC rounds out the hops smoothly and beautifully and my last Landlord was the best I have made due to this.

if you want to read through my change from an immersion chiller to slow chill and no chill, the link is below.
http://brewadelaide.com/forum/index.php?to...g12314#msg12314

so this no chill, cube hopped "10min" IPA is my crux. if it balances out, in the future, i may consider doing a quick boil and flame out addition the next day on the stove, then chilling it to provide the aroma it needs. but this seems like extra dicking around.

At this point, I'm definitely looking at moving to a plate chiller and giving NC a miss as it seems to negate the aroma hops unless you're doubling the late additions.

BF


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## loikar (15/12/11)

Gar said:


> Indeed, I must say I don't have a lot of faith but it would be awesome to be proven wrong.
> 
> Are you chilling the cube in any way BF?
> 
> *edit* and are the hops pellets?



Normally i would submerge the cube in a 60L bin of tap water to slow chill.
because I want to see how much bitterness 200g of 6.3% AA of Aussie Cascade imparts in the cube, this one is completely no chilled.

the hops are pellets.

BF


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## loikar (15/12/11)

vaanderal said:


> I'm curious to know, wouldn't this be too sweet without the addition of bittering hops into the boil?



that's the whole point of a 10min IPA

a fuckload of hops in the last 10min of the boil.
but in this case, since im NC'ing, im just cube hopping.


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## vaanderal (15/12/11)

cdbrown said:


> vannderal - The load of hops at the end is providing the bitterness as well as aroma and flavour. The later in the boil the hops are added, the bitterness is extracted (or the more hops you need for a particular level of bitterness). Being dumped in the cube is pretty much the same as being dumped into the boil with 10min left.



Ah righto  

Sounds tasty! This method will definitely be going on my to do list.


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## keifer33 (15/12/11)

vaanderal said:


> I'm curious to know, wouldn't this be too sweet without the addition of bittering hops into the boil?



Not at all. When running the wort into the cube @ 90ish degrees the hops are at a temperature that still allows the acids to do their thang. if you spend alot of time whirlpooling etc and drain closer to 80ish the results haven't been as appealing and are slightly sweeter than I like. 

I wanted to test this method as an alternative way of thinking in WA's state competition just to get feedback if the method was suited to APAs and IPAs. To my surprise the APA was a hit and got 40/50 so I have been happy using this method since.


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## WarmBeer (15/12/11)

BeerFingers said:


> At this point, I'm definitely looking at moving to a plate chiller and giving NC a miss as it seems to negate the aroma hops unless you're doubling the late additions.


Try Le Methode Argonoise.

Gave my last Black IPA a beautiful Cascade-y aroma that hung around.


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## Jace89 (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Try Le Methode Argonoise.
> 
> Gave my last Black IPA a beautiful Cascade-y aroma that hung around.



I use this method when NC'ing, it works a treat! Couldn't recommended more.


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## loikar (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Try Le Methode Argonoise.
> 
> Gave my last Black IPA a beautiful Cascade-y aroma that hung around.



I think this method would work, but it just seems a though you have a 2 day, 2 stage brew day.
I'm looking at having 1 brew day in the shortest time possible and for $130, i may as well just buy a plate chiller when compared to this method.

personally, I would rather have 1 brew day (inclusive of pitching my yeast), have no hop schedule adjustments and make beer as the recipe is intended.

Like I said, this will probably work well, but involves a bit more dicking around.

BF


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## sponge (15/12/11)

keifer33 said:


> Not at all. When running the wort into the cube @ 90ish degrees the hops are at a temperature that still allows the acids to do their thang. if you spend alot of time whirlpooling etc and drain closer to 80ish the results haven't been as appealing and are slightly sweeter than I like.
> 
> I wanted to test this method as an alternative way of thinking in WA's state competition just to get feedback if the method was suited to APAs and IPAs. To my surprise the APA was a hit and got 40/50 so I have been happy using this method since.



Just a question, how long do you normally let your wort sit after flameout? I normally go for 10min (or until the convection currents stop), whirlpool, let sit until it stops swirling, then transfer.

Would this method need to be done any faster than that to ensure theres not a substantial loss of temperature? I would be thinking not seeing as though the wort would retain its heat for quite a while after flameout, but since youve tried this method on a number of occasions, i just thought id ask the cheeky question

Cheers,



Sponge


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## loikar (15/12/11)

sponge said:


> Just a question, how long do you normally let your wort sit after flameout? I normally go for 10min (or until the convection currents stop), whirlpool, let sit until it stops swirling, then transfer.
> 
> Would this method need to be done any faster than that to ensure theres not a substantial loss of temperature? I would be thinking not seeing as though the wort would retain its heat for quite a while after flameout, but since youve tried this method on a number of occasions, i just thought id ask the cheeky question
> 
> ...



Kinda debatable...

If you don't mind break material in your cube, just whirlpool after the boil for 10min and transfer to the cube.
Alternatively you can wait for the thermals to settle, whirlpool and than then transfer, but you then run more of a risk of pasteurisation fail.

I basically whirlpool straight after the boil, have a ciggy and a beer and then crack the tap a little bit to transfer slowly, leaving as much break material as I can behind.

but it's up to you really, anything over 74degC for 1 minute will give you full pasturisation... PU units below:

1 minute @ 46 deg C (115 deg F) = 0.01 PU
1 minute @ 53 deg C (127 deg F) = 0.10 PU
1 minute @ 60 deg C (140 deg F) = 1.00 PU
1 minute @ 67 deg C (153 deg F) = 10.0 PU
1 minute @ 74 deg C (165 deg F) = 100.0 PU

http://www.redpostltd.com/support/science#PU

BF


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## WarmBeer (15/12/11)

BeerFingers said:


> I think this method would work, but it just seems a though you have a 2 day, 2 stage brew day.
> I'm looking at having 1 brew day in the shortest time possible and for $130, i may as well just buy a plate chiller when compared to this method.
> 
> personally, I would rather have 1 brew day (inclusive of pitching my yeast), have no hop schedule adjustments and make beer as the recipe is intended.
> ...


You say "tomato", I say "tomato"... (That differentiation doesn't work so well with the written word)

Yes, there is an additional process at pitching time, but it works well with my brewing process. I brew once the ankle-biters have gone to bed, so the last thing I want to be doing is hanging around after flameout, waiting for my wort to come down to pitching temperature (how long does it take you to get it to lager pitching temps?).

I whirlpool, wait for the cone to settle, drain into the cube, lay it on it's side, and I can be in bed, snuggling up to the wife within 20 minutes of flameout.


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## sponge (15/12/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Kinda debatable...
> 
> If you don't mind break material in your cube, just whirlpool after the boil for 10min and transfer to the cube.
> Alternatively you can wait for the thermals to settle, whirlpool and than then transfer, but you then run more of a risk of pasteurisation fail.
> ...



I guess the break material can settle out during CCing so thats not really an issue. plus i dont strive for perfectly clear beers... most seem to clear up alright after a week at 2' then a week in the keg.

i might have to give this a go, just FO, WP, 10min, then transfer onto the hops in the cube.

should still be nice and hot for pasteurisation purposes, along with hop utilisation.



Sponge


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## loikar (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> You say "tomato", I say "tomato"... (That differentiation doesn't work so well with the written word)
> 
> Yes, there is an additional process at pitching time, but it works well with my brewing process. I brew once the ankle-biters have gone to bed, so the last thing I want to be doing is hanging around after flameout, waiting for my wort to come down to pitching temperature (how long does it take you to get it to lager pitching temps?).
> 
> I whirlpool, wait for the cone to settle, drain into the cube, lay it on it's side, and I can be in bed, snuggling up to the wife within 20 minutes of flameout.



I don't brew lagers, mainly due to fridge space and that i'm an alcoholic who anguishes at the thought of a brew sitting in the fridge for 6 weeks CC'ing.
But when chilling an ale, I can smack it before brewing and pitch it before I go to bed, usually about 20c and my STC-1000 is set to 18c.

I totally get that, horses for courses, and having young children myself, I get what you mean.

for me, I only brew on the weekends when chilling due to the extra hour-ish it adds and give the wife plenty of notice. but when NCing I can knock a 20L brew out in just under 4 hours and can do that after work during the week and still have time to read the kids a story.

When Chilling, I always chill before the whirlpool.
When NC'ing I whirlpool at flame out for about 15min then slowly transfer to the cube.

Like I said, I think the small boil the next day will work well for the beer, but for $130, personally I can get a plate chiller and not have to worry about anything the next day.


BF


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## keifer33 (15/12/11)

sponge said:


> I guess the break material can settle out during CCing so thats not really an issue. plus i dont strive for perfectly clear beers... most seem to clear up alright after a week at 2' then a week in the keg.
> 
> i might have to give this a go, just FO, WP, 10min, then transfer onto the hops in the cube.
> 
> ...



From the end if the boil I leave for a few mind, but quick 5min whirlpool then drain. I use a pickup tube aswell and there is still a decent amount of break material left behind. The method does require some tradeoff with break material getting in the cube.


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## going down a hill (15/12/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Kinda debatable...
> 
> If you don't mind break material in your cube, just whirlpool after the boil for 10min and transfer to the cube.
> Alternatively you can wait for the thermals to settle, whirlpool and than then transfer, but you then run more of a risk of pasteurisation fail.
> ...



That makes it easier to know what timeline I can play with after flameout. 74c is the magic number, Cheers


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## loikar (15/12/11)

going down a hill said:


> That makes it easier to know what timeline I can play with after flameout. 74c is the magic number, Cheers



True, but I would be rounding that up to 80c just for a precaution,


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## WarmBeer (15/12/11)

Be interesting to see how much actual wort you get into the fermenter, 200gm of hops if going to soak up a whole lotta fluid.

I tried majorly cube hopping once, although not to the same extent, and ended up losing around 1.5 - 2 litres of wort, as I didn't want to pour a heap of gunky hop matter into my fermenter. I tried sieving it through a fine mesh, but that blocked up pretty quickly.

Will be watching with interest.


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## going down a hill (15/12/11)

BeerFingers said:


> True, but I would be rounding that up to 80c just for a precaution,


For sure, it demystifies the pasteurising process, which is a good thing to know.


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## argon (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Be interesting to see how much actual wort you get into the fermenter, 200gm of hops if going to soak up a whole lotta fluid.
> 
> I tried majorly cube hopping once, although not to the same extent, and ended up losing around 1.5 - 2 litres of wort, as I didn't want to pour a heap of gunky hop matter into my fermenter. I tried sieving it through a fine mesh, but that blocked up pretty quickly.
> 
> Will be watching with interest.



I'd suggest pouring it all in, then double dropping before 24hrs to get a fair bit of the hop debris out. Added benefit of more aeration and cold break exclusion.


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## loikar (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Be interesting to see how much actual wort you get into the fermenter, 200gm of hops if going to soak up a whole lotta fluid.
> 
> I tried majorly cube hopping once, although not to the same extent, and ended up losing around 1.5 - 2 litres of wort, as I didn't want to pour a heap of gunky hop matter into my fermenter. I tried sieving it through a fine mesh, but that blocked up pretty quickly.
> 
> Will be watching with interest.



Considering I ferment in the same cube, that's going to be tough to answer.

I keg, so I allow up to 2L to remain in the fermenter in my measurements when transferring to keg.

Although looking at it, there's going to be a fair whack of gunk in the bottom after ferment....

<_< 

BF


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## loikar (15/12/11)

going down a hill said:


> For sure, it demystifies the pasteurising process, which is a good thing to know.



I don't want to start a shit fight, but one of the things the "old timer" AHB members taught me when reading this forum was "check the facts".

This being a prime example.

1 minute at 74c and you're done.
Not 15 minutes at 90c

BF


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## Aus_Rider_22 (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Be interesting to see how much actual wort you get into the fermenter, 200gm of hops if going to soak up a whole lotta fluid.
> 
> I tried majorly cube hopping once, although not to the same extent, and ended up losing around 1.5 - 2 litres of wort, as I didn't want to pour a heap of gunky hop matter into my fermenter. I tried sieving it through a fine mesh, but that blocked up pretty quickly.
> 
> Will be watching with interest.



I started getting annoyed with having so much hop debris hanging around and making it into the fermenter so I now use a fine mesh bag that stays "open" and lets the boiling wort flow through the contained hops. This is it in action






Obviously this wouldn't work for a cube addition but I will using 180gm of hops in a similar mesh bag that will be tied up so the hop sludge will be contained as much as possible. Anyone else used a bag to contain the hops for a big NC cube addition?


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## loikar (15/12/11)

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Anyone else used a bag to contain the hops for a big NC cube addition?



I don't _really_ care about what makes it to the fermenter.
I care more about what makes it to the keg.

Ve ave vays ov making it vork!


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## argon (15/12/11)

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Anyone else used a bag to contain the hops for a big NC cube addition?




I did it one time...and will not be doing it again. Major PITA to get the swollen hop bag back out of the neck of the cube. Better off just letting into the fermentor. It won't cause any problems.


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## drsmurto (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> You say "tomato", I say "tomato"... (That differentiation doesn't work so well with the written word)
> 
> Yes, there is an additional process at pitching time, but it works well with my brewing process. I brew once the ankle-biters have gone to bed, so the last thing I want to be doing is hanging around after flameout, waiting for my wort to come down to pitching temperature (how long does it take you to get it to lager pitching temps?).
> 
> I whirlpool, wait for the cone to settle, drain into the cube, lay it on it's side, and I can be in bed, snuggling up to the wife within 20 minutes of flameout.



Additional time, in my brewery, is a fallacy.

It takes the same amount of time to run the wort into a cube as it does to run it to a fermenter via a plate chiller.

I'm (now) in the same boat, although mine doesn't have teeth so the biting thing isn't an issue (yet)....... 

If i am rushed for time i might shave 30 mins of mashing and/or boiling, they are much longer steps than chilling at 90 mins a piece.


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## argon (15/12/11)

DrSmurto said:


> It takes the same amount of time to run the wort into a cube as it does to run it to a fermenter via a plate chiller.



+1... As a long time no chiller and 2 time plate chiller I found the same and was surprised at how similar the timing was. I'd always been told it takes longer.


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## benno1973 (15/12/11)

BeerFingers said:


> http://www.redpostltd.com/support/science#PU



That's a pretty interesting article, but where does it say that you need 100PU? The pasteurisation units mentioned are all for finished beer I assume, and anything less acidic or with more sugars (or both as in the case of unfermented beer) would need much higher pasteurisation. I don't doubt that 100PU would do it, just wondering where that is referenced.


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## loikar (15/12/11)

Kaiser Soze said:


> That's a pretty interesting article, but where does it say that you need 100PU? The pasteurisation units mentioned are all for finished beer I assume, and anything less acidic or with more sugars (or both as in the case of unfermented beer) would need much higher pasteurisation. I don't doubt that 100PU would do it, just wondering where that is referenced.



http://www.barry-wehmiller-company.com/con...b/Glossary.aspx

Is where the Temp Vs PU's is from.

My assumption, is that it's directly related to temperature Vs bacteria and the medium is negated.


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## manticle (15/12/11)

argon said:


> +1... As a long time no chiller and 2 time plate chiller I found the same and was surprised at how similar the timing was. I'd always been told it takes longer.




I've no chilled for most of my ag brewing time but have tried using a plate chiller. The advantages of no-chilling for me are definitely not time (otherwise I wouldn't step mash or decoct half my brews) and I'd agree that the difference with plate chilling is minimal.

It does give one more piece of equipment to clean and sanitise but I think that's a pretty small deal for most competent brewers unless you have a nasty wild yeast on the property.

Main advantage for me is saving water (I don't have a tank) and being able to prep a proper starter using identical wort. If starter fails, I can make another one without having to pitch US05 on my freshly made tripel.


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## argon (15/12/11)

manticle said:


> Main advantage for me is saving water (I don't have a tank)


That's my one concern... Although after a bit of thought, I fill the HLT back up for reuse for next time, then the mash tun for hot cleaning, then what ever over that go into cubes which then go into the washing machine when i put a wash on... which always a good idea on a brewday to get me in the good books with Mrs argon.


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## drsmurto (16/12/11)

Very true, I wouldn't advocate the use of a chiller if you were just running the water down the drain. Re-using it as Argon suggests. Let it cool down and use it on the garden (hops). 

I'm fortunate to have rainwater tanks that allows me to return my chilling water back into the tanks via the nearest downpipe.


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## jacknohe (18/12/11)

I'm about to move to fermenting in Willow 20L Jerry cans. I NC in the Jerry can and often add hops for APA or AIPA. But up till now I've poured the wort once cool into a barrel fermenter through a strainer (hop sock) and was able to remove the hop debris.

Has anyone had any issues like grassy flavours with leaving say 100g+ hops in the fermenter?


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## black_labb (18/12/11)

jacknohe said:


> I'm about to move to fermenting in Willow 20L Jerry cans. I NC in the Jerry can and often add hops for APA or AIPA. But up till now I've poured the wort once cool into a barrel fermenter through a strainer (hop sock) and was able to remove the hop debris.
> 
> Has anyone had any issues like grassy flavours with leaving say 100g+ hops in the fermenter?




I'd suggest that you would want to transfer the wort from the cube to something else so that you can aerate it. We go through alot of steps to remove as much oxygen from the wort before transferring into the cube and you need a fair amount for yeast health. 

I don't think leaving the fermenting wort on the hops for 10 days will make a difference when it has been on the hops for weeks before starting the ferment.


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## loikar (18/12/11)

OK, so pitched my London Ale II on this yesterday.

One thing a little concerning was the OG.... 1047 when I should be getting around the 1063..
I had it sitting upright on the concrete for about 48hours to before I pitched, and I drew off a small sample from the top using a pipette.

I'm "hoping" that it just separated a bit and it was just a little more watery on top.
I hit my preboil gravity with a few liters over, so it's about a 22L, but also sucked a shitload of trub in there too... so we'll see.

I'll wait until a krausen forms and then swap that plug for a tap, let it all settle again, suck a couple of liters out and use the hydrometer.
at least if I'm over 1047 I know my first reading was up the shitter.







BF


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## drtomc (18/12/11)

Just did a variation today for a mate to use up some hops:

23L
Efficiency 75%
4.25kg trad ale (JW)
0.75kg Munich I (Best)
0.5kg Wheat malt (JW)
0.1kg Crystal (JW)
0.05kg Choc (JW)

60min BIAB mash @ 67C

15g Magnum (14.1%) @ 60min
80g Amarillo (9.3%) @ cube
15g Cascade (??) @ cube
10g Galaxy (??) @ cube

OG 1.056
Est FG 1.015
IBU 50

All went well until my mate's cube wouldn't seal. Bugger. Carefully poured it into my cube (round cube :huh. Sealed, but left behind some hop material. Hopefully most of the good stuff already in solution/suspension.

T.

Edit: I think he's going to ferment it with US-05.


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## Phoney (18/12/11)

drtomc said:


> All went well until my mate's cube wouldn't seal. Bugger. Carefully poured it into my cube (round cube :huh. Sealed, but left behind some hop material. Hopefully most of the good stuff already in solution/suspension.



I had this problem a few times back when I used to no chill.

A few rounds of teflon tape around the thread did the trick.


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## Thirsty Boy (19/12/11)

on the PU front

PUs in the case of beer, wort etc etc, are about the liquid, and the liquid being microbiologically stable. They aren't what you need to concern yourself with when you are filling an NC cube. The liquid you are filling your cube with has in fact had thousands of PU's already and is almost certainly as sterile as its ever going to get - you boiled it for an hour!!

So, worrying about PUs in the cube is pointless. What you need to worry about there, is sterilising the interior surface of the cube, sterilising anything you have in there like hops, hop bag etc.

You need enough time and temp, for the heat to not only kill the things on the surface, but also for the heat to penetrate any cracks, scratches, crevises (the threads on your tap if you have one fitted) and kill microbes in there, and you need to assume that its more or less going to be dry heat that has to do the trick, because its entirely possible that surface tension is keeping actual liquid out of fine scratches in the plastic.

Surface sterilisation and dry heat sterilisation are entirely different beasts to pasteurisation and the numbers aren't quite the same.

in the brewing industry, or at least the bit of it I am familiar with, we would conduct a hot water sterilisation at 80+C for 20 minutes or a hot caustic CIP at a little lower (the caustic provides some chemical back up to the heat) - and thats just to sanitise a fermenter etc.... Thats probably "more" than sufficient, but remember, for the purposes of NC, you want something much closer to sterile because you have no yeast to help control any bacterial growth, so you need no bacteria at all, not just less of them.

Now, No-Chill obviously does a sufficient job in most cases, but people still do get infected cubes - so its plainly not so far in advance of the requirements that you can afford to be careless. The hotter you can get your wort into the cube and the longer it stays hot - the safer you are.

That doesn't mean that you will get an infection, or even that the risk is particularly high if you do this stuff a few degrees cooler. But it *is* more risk - and for me, personally, if I wasn't pretty sure that the liquid temperature in my NC cube wasn't at or close to 80C for at least 15 or so minutes after I filled it, i would consider it too much risk.

Your tolerance for risk may well be different to mine though, so YMMV.

TB


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## loikar (3/1/12)

This went into the keg last night.

As I said previously, I came in 16 points under.
This was due to my evaporation rate being @ 37% in beersmith for some bizarre reason.

Anyway, started at 1047, finished at 1015, so it's more of a 10min APA @ 4.2% ABV

How did it taste?
Well, it's still pretty green and I don't think it got to the 59 IBU's I was expecting. I would possibly say high 30's, low 40's but then again, IBU's is a perception thing.
It did have a nice malt profile up front thanks to the caramunich 1 which fell off the back of the tongue nicely and the mouthfeel was slightly coating and clean finishing.

The Hops?
bitterness is there, flavour is lacking, aroma is reminiscent of a hoppy beer.
I might be a bit premature since it's still very young and has no bubbles yet, but Having Chilled beers previously, I can say that cubing beer takes away some flavour and a lot of aroma from beers.
Maybe not so much "Takes away" but certainly rounds it all off and mutes the flavour and aroma.

Not saying that it's a bad beer, but if I had used 200g of hops in the last 10min and chilled it, there would have been a bigger smack in the face from the hops.

Will post back in a week when it's chilled and carbed up.

Cheers,

BF


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## Yob (3/1/12)

BeerFingers said:


>



is that a food grade rubber band I see there?

noice :unsure:


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## loikar (3/1/12)

iamozziyob said:


> is that a food grade rubber band I see there?
> 
> noice :unsure:



yeah, because rubber bands MUST be food grade if their holding stainless steel mesh onto a PVC tube that contains 18c wort for 3 minutes otherwise their going to leech toxic and cacogenic poisons all into my beer and ruin it.

let that be a warning to you all, if you have EVER touched a rubber band and not immediately washed the toxins it emits from your hands, you can definitely run the risk of toxic poisoning!
Don't even THINK of putting one in your mouth! 
I made a grave mistake by using non food grade rubber bands to hold mesh to my PVC tube and have put myself and my beer at risk, pay no further attention to me!

People like the quoted above are clearly veritable Genius's and when it comes to rubber bands, you should definitely consult them before exposing yourself to such harm 

Thanks for the insight iamozziyob, clearly you sir, are rowing with more than just one oar.

BF


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## loikar (9/1/12)

OK, so just over a week in the Keg....

Very surprised at the result.
While it's not as hoppy as my previously chilled beers, it's actually coming up ok.
The bubbles have definitely brought out the hop profile some more and it's starting to balance out ok.
A bit blurry:





In fact, I was happy enough to do it again yesterday with 270g of 2010 US Cascade plugs in the cube only.
Made it a 10min boil addition in BeerSmith but im expecting IBU's to come up around the high 40's low 50's






```
Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Batch Size: 20.00 L	  

Boil Size: 26.86 L

Estimated OG: 1.055 SG

Estimated Color: 19.6 EBC

Estimated IBU: 66.1 IBU

Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %

Boil Time: 60 Minutes



Ingredients:

------------

Amount		 Item									Type		 % or IBU	  

4.20 kg		Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas FawcetGrain		84.0 %		

0.50 kg		Caramalt (Joe White) (30.0 EBC)		 Grain		10.0 %		

0.30 kg		Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (118Grain		6.0 %		 

270.00 gm	  Cascade - CUBE [5.40%]  (10 min)		Hops		 66.1 IBU	  

80.00 gm	   Cascade [5.40%]  (Dry Hop 10 days)	  Hops		  -			

80.00 gm	   Cascade [5.40%]  (Dry Hop 5 days)	   Hops		  -			

1 Pkgs		 California Ale V (White Labs #WLP051)   Yeast-Ale				  





Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge

Total Grain Weight: 5.00 kg

----------------------------

Name				Description					   Step Temp	 Step Time	 

Mash In			 Add 13.04 L of water at 71.1 C	64.0 C		60 min		





Notes:

------

OG: 1051

FG: 

IBUs: All Cube Hopped

Mash at 64C

90 minute boil

270g of 2010 US Cascade plugs in the cube

80g Cascade dry hop  for 10 days

80g Cascade dry hop  for 5 days

Wyeast 1272 American Ale II

Ferment at 18c

Used a 1L Starter for this one.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
```

So 430g of hops in total B) 

So we'll see how hoppy this bastard gets 

BF


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## MarkBastard (9/1/12)

Would you suggest that Cube + Dry hop would be good?


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## loikar (9/1/12)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Would you suggest that Cube + Dry hop would be good?




I'm thinking that based on the last one, it would be a good thing just to boost the aroma...
the 160g I'll be dropping in may be a little excessive, and i'm thinking it'll need a few weeks longer in the keg to settle out the "grass".
But since I want flavour and a "smack in the face" aroma to be prominent on this one i'm hoping it'll do the job.

So short answer = Yes

BF


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## stux (9/1/12)

BeerFingers said:


> Made it a 10min boil addition in BeerSmith but im expecting IBU's to come up around the high 40's low 50's



Interesting page by QldKev on why No Chill hop additions should be calculated/shifted as 10 min additions and not 15 min 
http://members.iinet.net.au/~julielonghurst/nochill.php


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## loikar (9/1/12)

Stux said:


> Interesting page by QldKev on why No Chill hop additions should be calculated/shifted as 10 min additions and not 15 min
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~julielonghurst/nochill.php



Yep I did read that when starting this experiment.

The thing is there is _so much_ confliction in so many elements of home brewing, and not knocking QldKev's thoughts on this, but I find its best to work it out for yourself and what works best for you. the biggest hurdle is the "What If I make a shit Beer I don't want\Can't Drink"
Get over that and you can start trial and error work to really work out what does what and when.

Up until the first all cube hopped beer I did, I wasn't really satisfied with no-chill\Slow-chill.
What I'm trying to do now is get a no-chilled beer as close to my previously chilled beers as possible and then compare recipes etc.
If this latest one is anything to go by, the trick will be to throw a shitload of hops in the cube and dry hop it's tits off.

I'll have to work it out, but in the long run, it'll probably be cheaper just to buy a chiller or just drink malt driven beers.

BF


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## loikar (13/1/12)

Thought I would just update those that were interested in this thread.

This beer is coming up a treat despite the **** up.
Nice cascade aroma and flavour coming through but not killing the caramunich. it's starting to balance out nicely.
A couple of faults:
The bitterness. If I was to do this again I would have a 10-15g 10min addition or even a 5-10g first wort addition, it needs more IBU's, maybe about 10-15 units.
It's a little thin in body, but I put this down the my evaporation rate **** up.

This method will be the way I will do all my NC beers from now on. I think it's the closest I can get for flavour and aroma compared to a chilled beer.
The downside?, you need double the hops to achive the same\similar hop hit.

that being said, my next one will be an IPA, have a mash hop, 15min as well as a 0min addition, and the rest in the cube.
will be chasing 75ish IBU's and 570g of hops in total :icon_cheers: 

BF


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## keifer33 (13/1/12)

Your experience is almost identical to mine BeerFingers. I have started to put a small bittering addition to just guarantee that you get some bitterness. I love hops so using more isn't a bad thing.


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## sponge (13/1/12)

So would this method be comparable to a 5min addition by what youre saying about the lack of IBU's as opposed to the 15min or so that was predicted?

Definitely giving it a go on the next brew though

Cheers for the updates BF



Sponge


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## loikar (13/1/12)

keifer33 said:


> Your experience is almost identical to mine BeerFingers. I have started to put a small bittering addition to just guarantee that you get some bitterness. I love hops so using more isn't a bad thing.



Kinda...
Coming from someone who used to chill, and am now no-chilling the same recipes.
The money you spend on throwing 250g+ of hops into each brew could well be spent on a $130 chill plate allowing you to get the same\similar amount of flavour and aroma for less hops.
For my last all cube hopped brew, I've used an extra 130g of cascade to boost the flavour and aroma.

I will keep experimenting with this as my aim is to replicate as close as possible my Epic Pale Clone to the same as when it was chilled.
once I get it how I remember it, i'll brew the original recipe again and chill it to compare.

Cheers,

BF


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## stux (13/1/12)

Have you considered argonizing or french-pressing fermenter hop additions?

I found the french-press added a good whack of hop aroma without consuming a large amount


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## loikar (13/1/12)

sponge said:


> So would this method be comparable to a 5min addition by what youre saying about the lack of IBU's as opposed to the 15min or so that was predicted?
> 
> Definitely giving it a go on the next brew though
> 
> ...



I'm putting the IBU's around 20-22 on the original recipe in this thread.
I was initially chasing ~60IBU, but then again it was also supposed to be an IPA as well.
Depending on the AA's, I would start at a 10-15min addition and work your up to possibly a 20min addition, or keep a 10-15min addition but using say; 20g of hops.

BF


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## loikar (13/1/12)

Stux said:


> Have you considered argonizing or french-pressing fermenter hop additions?
> 
> I found the french-press added a good whack of hop aroma without consuming a large amount



Sure, that's definitely and option, and from what other brewers have said, it works well at putting that hoppy front end on beers.

My (somewhat forced) "experimenting" with no-chill is to see what it takes to achieve the same result without having to mess around the next day by doing a small boil and flame out addition or french pressing.

for the sake of a $130 plate chiller I would rather have my brew day extended for 30-40min and pitch on the same day and be done with it, rather than splitting my brewday into 2 separate events.

It's also to see how much bitterness no chilling adds to a brew.
for me: 200g of 6.8% AA adds about 22-ish IBU's 

BF


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## MarkBastard (13/1/12)

IMO dry hopping is the most economical way to add aroma hops. I found french press method horrible. Not sure why some people dislike dry hopping, I love that resinous character.


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## drsmurto (13/1/12)

Mark^Bastard said:


> IMO dry hopping is the most economical way to add aroma hops. I found french press method horrible. Not sure why some people dislike dry hopping, I love that resinous character.



Some of us aren't fans of freshly mown lawn clippings in our beer :icon_vomit:


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## Phoney (13/1/12)

How people can find no chilling more convinient while spending half an hour the following day dicking around with a french press is sonething ill never understand. I tried it once and bought a chiller. h34r:


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## MarkBastard (13/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Some of us aren't fans of freshly mown lawn clippings in our beer :icon_vomit:



It never tastes anything like that to me when I dry hop. On the other hand when using the french press method I notice definite negative flavours (sort of grassy harshness).



phoneyhuh said:


> How people can find no chilling more convinient while spending half an hour the following day dicking around with a french press is sonething ill never understand. I tried it once and bought a chiller. h34r:



I agree, but not everyone does all that extra stuff.


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## loikar (13/1/12)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I agree, but not everyone does all that extra stuff.



The whole reason I'm doing this with NC...

I don't want to be ******* around with mini-boils or French press's or steeping etc the next day.
I just want to have a brew day, clean up, pitch my yeast and go to bed.
come back 2 weeks later and fill a keg, AND have a nice hoppy APA, IPA etc.
the only difference is, I pitch my yeast the next night which is only a 3min job.

What this thread is about, it trying to achieve with NC what I could when I was chilling.
Slowly, and expensively, im getting there.

BF


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## Effect (13/1/12)

BeerFingers said:


> that's the whole point of a 10min IPA



cause that is just how we roll!

nice to see you on the 10 min IPA bandwagon my friend.


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## loikar (13/1/12)

Phillip said:


> cause that is just how we roll!
> 
> nice to see you on the 10 min IPA bandwagon my friend.



Natural Progression Really :icon_chickcheers:


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## Vanoontour (4/4/12)

So how'd it turn out in the end??


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## Gar (4/4/12)

Not sure if Beerfingers can post anymore but I had a bit of a try at cube hopping 200 grams of falconers flight in my last IPA... I bottled it on friday and so far I'm quite impressed!

I'll probably open up a bottle on friday night as an early taster.


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## sponge (4/4/12)

The last 3 brews ive done have all been single cube hop additions.

Its giving a real nice hop flavour and aroma which I've been lacking in my NC beers.

I normally don't need to dry hop either, unless I want a rediculous in your face aroma, as the large late addition seems to compensate for a lot of that lost aroma. 

It may use a reasonable amount of hops (~10g/l) but its been totally worth it with the brews I've done.

Plus hops arent overly expensive, and an extra $15 for a whole lotta flavour and aroma with the benefit NC? Don't mind if I do, sir!

I may one day get a chiller when I have a water tank so I can just pump the water back through there, but until then, I'm more than happy to throw a few extra hops into the cube to make up for lost flavour and aroma.


Sponge


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## loikar (4/4/12)

vanoontour said:


> So how'd it turn out in the end??




I ended up doing quite a few NC beers with 10min additions, all cube hopped additions, 60 40 20min bittering additions and the rest in the cube.
out of all of them there was one i was kind of happy with:
20L Batch
94.3% pale
5.7% Caramunich 1
200g of cascade in the cube
London ale III #1318

This one was drinkable apart from lacking on bitterness.

So my findings on the NC method?...
too many variables and dicking around involved to get a nice beer. Too many adjustments required depending on the type of beer you're brewing.

For example:
it's a good method for stouts, porters, Alt's etc, or for any malt driven beers. 

For a single NC\ferment vessel, IPA's, bigger APA's or hop forward beers, it's a pig of a method.
the cube additions basically sit and stew in the cube. as the beer ferments, alcohol also strips the vegetal flavours from the hops which contribute to the harshness of the beer. 
High AA hops and therefore high cohumulone levels are deal breakers with this method for me. Whereas lower AA's such as noble hops etc seem to work better.
your aroma will be muted without making up for it via a small boil or french press or something at a later time.

SO, depending on the style of beer you're making, depending on the hops you're using, depending on the quantity of hops required, depending on when you add the hops, it's all a bit of a juggling act.
The NC method will work, but if you're expecting to make the same beer as your mate with the chiller, you're going to be disappointed.

If you insist on NC, and insist on using cube additions, my suggestions having done *some* experimenting with NC are:


As soon as it's at pitching temp, rack it off any hops and into your fermenter
Don't ferment with the hops in the cube. Ideally, even for people with chillers, dry hop once the ferment is complete and dry hop while CC'ing the beer in order for the alcohol to strip the lupulin and not any vegetal flavours.
Adjust your hop additions in relation to the AA levels as well as time, the more AA the more bitterness (and cohumulone) you're going to get.
Forget your aroma addition until the next day, then do a mini-boil and add your flame out then.
have a chat to Smurto and Philip about HopHash (sorry fellas  )
stop ******* around with all the above and see NigeP62 for a plate chiller.


I have since bought a plate chiller from Nige @ brewadelaide.com for $130 and have made a Schwarzbier, a Landlord and have a Hoppy APA cooking now.
No adjustments made to the recipie for NC, they are smelling and tasting great and just how I remember when I was using the immersion chiller.

My recommendation is to invest in a chiller.


BUT!! 
I was up at (the great) Butters house the other week and tasted his AAA, while not a hop forward beer, it was well balanced.
His beer was NC'd and had no hop additions changed to allow for NC, and pretty much contradicted my findings on NC.

Although I haven't spoken to him about it yet, I want to perform an experiment with him where we both brew the same recipie twice, one chilled, one no-chilled. I'm sure he'll be keen.
I also want to include this in a Triangle tasting session DrSmurto and I have had planned for a while now in regards to AG Vs Extract.

We've both had a lot going on at the moment (especially me) so when we'll get to do any of this who knows, but the NC and the AG Vs Extract debates needs to be settled (at least in the minds of a few of us) once and for all.


Cheers,

BeerFingers


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## MarkBastard (4/4/12)

I would use a chiller if I was in a place that had cold enough water.

Even in the dead of winter I doubt the water is cold enough at my joint.


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## [email protected] (4/4/12)

BeerFingers said:


> [*]have a chat to Smurto and Philip about HopHash (sorry fellas  )



Ahh but they went all quiet on that one??  I can sort of understand why my sort of father in law thought i was some sort of druggie when i explained the process to him. But IMO it is a viable method of getting great hop aroma and flavour into a beer, massive amounts in fact without the grass associated with large amounts of normal hopping.

Anyone who grows their own hops should try it at least once, you only have to google the subject and a commercial brewery in USA has previously released a hop hash beer. 

Hell if i was really flush with cash i would probably by bulk flowers and do it more often as unlikely that is to happen.


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## Gar (4/4/12)

Sounds interesting, could anyone point me in the right direction for the process?

Bubble bags and butane spring to mind from my youth :lol: 



Beer4U said:


> Ahh but they went all quiet on that one??  I can sort of understand why my sort of father in law thought i was some sort of druggie when i explained the process to him. But IMO it is a viable method of getting great hop aroma and flavour into a beer, massive amounts in fact without the grass associated with large amounts of normal hopping.
> 
> Anyone who grows their own hops should try it at least once, you only have to google the subject and a commercial brewery in USA has previously released a hop hash beer.
> 
> Hell if i was really flush with cash i would probably by bulk flowers and do it more often as unlikely that is to happen.


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## [email protected] (4/4/12)

Gar said:


> Sounds interesting, could anyone point me in the right direction for the process?
> 
> Bubble bags and butane spring to mind from my youth :lol:



Yes bubble bags / ice extraction is what you want, you dont NEED bubble bags, you can do less refined process using gravity and swiss voile.


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## Bongchitis (5/4/12)

..Or a more refined process of subcritical butane extraction h34r:


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## YankeeTankard (5/4/12)

BeerFingers, thanks for the review of your experiences with no-chill brewing hoppy ales. I joined the forum specifically to research this technique and your summary is much appreciated! I still haven't tried the method out, but with warmer weather approaching I'll have to pick out a beer soon as my sacrificial lamb.


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## kelbygreen (5/4/12)

it is a great way to do a brew day and store beers. I would chill in a heartbeat but like yesterday I put 66lts into cubes. Now that is not possible or viable unless all fermenters are empty. I also look at it I dont have to brew for 3 weeks now there is 3 cubes sitting there waiting to go into fermenters. 

It took me 4.5 hrs from filling the HLT with water to stacking the washed vessels back onto the stand, I done a pils and a PA so not bad for 2 totally different styles  I wont lie I did not get to rest in that 4.5 hrs (except for mashing) as My HLT turned into my second kettle and I had to bend and make a new pick up tube to put in after I had sparged the big batch to make way for the use of a boiler. I mashed the pils for prob 80mins then decoction some out and boiled while fly sparging the big batch and had to use the stove top to heat the mash so was running back and forward  

Burnt my hand from forgetting to turn the kettle tap off and pulling off the QD :S lol used 100g of flowers in the HLT (kettle now for single batch) and they kept plugging up the pick up tube.

So I could get it down to prob 4 hrs if I got a small burner, another gas bottle or ran 3 burners off the one and maybe another pot not sure my 19lt pot would cut it as it was to the brim many times. Also if I had some one to help me it would help but you know you do what you can  

If I done a 10 min IPA I would prob chill fast, anything I would like hop and aroma driven would go the extra step and chill or just add bittering hops and do a small 10min boil on the day.


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## loikar (7/4/12)

YankeeTankard said:


> BeerFingers, thanks for the review of your experiences with no-chill brewing hoppy ales. I joined the forum specifically to research this technique and your summary is much appreciated! I still haven't tried the method out, but with warmer weather approaching I'll have to pick out a beer soon as my sacrificial lamb.



No problems, PM me with any questions if you want.
I don't visit here too often anymore.


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## loikar (7/4/12)

kelbygreen said:


> it is a great way to do a brew day and store beers. I would chill in a heartbeat but like yesterday I put 66lts into cubes. Now that is not possible or viable unless all fermenters are empty. I also look at it I dont have to brew for 3 weeks now there is 3 cubes sitting there waiting to go into fermenters.





kelbygreen said:


> If I done a 10 min IPA I would prob chill fast, anything I would like hop and aroma driven would go the extra step and chill or just add bittering hops and do a small 10min boil on the day.



that's it in a nutshell.

if you like malt driven beers, NC will work and I think gives you a deeper more complexed flavour.

If you like hop driven beers, or a nicely balanced beer, get a chiller.


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## Impy (16/4/12)

Could the use of relatively low AA cascade be throwing out the expectation of bitterness? Could you supplement in some high AA complimentary hop to get the most out of the amount of time it'll be in contact with the hot (but not boiling) wort in the cube?

Also, what about wrapping the cube in a blanket? If you could maintain the amount of time it was at non boiling, but still hot, temps more AA might get isomerized adding to bitterness?


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