# Distinguishing Hops Bitterness From Grain Tannin Astringency



## manticle (21/4/09)

I've started doing some partial mashes and I've done a few thing tits up due to not having a lot of money and trying to experiment.

Some people on here already know but try not to laugh as I'm the kind of person that likes to have a crack, then when he gets it wrong, work out why and have another.

Anyway, I've opened a tester of my recently bottled wheat beer. It's young but it's a tester to see where it's going. It tastes lovely - a little too similar to my recent lager but I'll have to play with some single hop beers to get more of an understanding of what they bring. Both had a lot of tettnanger later on, the wheat was also dry hopped with it and there's a distinct citrus/orange aroma and flavour. I like it but I'd like more distinction between my beer types.

However it also has a distinct bitter aftertaste that, to my mind is a little more like tannin in tea than a beer bitterness (obviously there's beer bitterness too).

This is the stupid part - I cracked my grains using a coffee grinder. I didn't grind them to dust - just a second or so but I've been given the impression that's just a no go. Grain mill will come courtesy of Rudd bonus, if it ever comes. My assumption is that I've extracted tannins (don't worry the coffee grinder is now strictly for coffee)

So - is there a clear indication that a bitter taste comes from overly cracked or highly temp mashed grain as opposed to too much hops? Are they a different 'bitter'? Or could I get the same from overly hopping?

Thanks.


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## peas_and_corn (21/4/09)

It's difficult to tell whether the flavours you are describing are tannins or bitterness- though it seems like it is tannins. the best way I would describe them would be the mouth puckering that you would get when you drink a red wine.

I doubt that it's your crushing method that did it. No doubt you should get a grain mill (or have your LHBS crush your grain for you), since mills crush rather than cur the grains. This will result in (as far as I'm aware) bad or lower efficiency but not tannins. The most common source of tannins is oversparging the mash in some way so that could be a source. If grain made it into the boil then that can leech tannins into your brew.

Hope that was helpful


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## manticle (21/4/09)

Thanks yes.

It needs more conditioning anyway but I may also have oversparged. Should be no grains in the fermenter or boil though.

Still learning this mashing thing.


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## katzke (22/4/09)

Tannin Extraction, my favorite subject.

Most everything you are told or read on the subject it just plain wrong.

What is correct is to extract tannins from your brewing grain you need high pH. Once the tannins are liberated then heat will help rinse them out of the grains. Heat by itself will not extract tannins from the grain.

That is why over sparging can extract tannins, the pH raises when sparging and taken to the extreme it gets way too high. This is also why a decoction mash does not cause a problem with tannins as the grain and as little water as possible is withdrawn and boiled. The grain can keep the pH low because of the small amount of water being boiled.


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## newguy (22/4/09)

+1 pH. If your pH is too high, you'll get tannins from the grain husks.

FWIW, even experienced beer judges confuse astringency and bitterness. Sometimes I'll pick up a grassy flavour (just like how a freshly mown lawn smells) in astringent beers. As far as I know, there is no way to tell where the astringency came from - hops or grain - but if your pH is too high chances are its the grain.


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## manticle (23/4/09)

newguy said:


> +1 pH. If your pH is too high, you'll get tannins from the grain husks.




I'm just using straight tap water (live in Melbourne and not at the fancy pants add gypsum, calcium and magnesium type stage just yet).

I'm pretty sure the water is a lower pH. I know other things can drive up the pH a little but it was only a 3kg mash with water at 70 deg. Sparge water was about 70 but I did rinse quite a few times. 

I might steal a test strip from uni and check it out


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## Screwtop (23/4/09)

BYB, might seem a silly question, but what did your beer finish at FG?

Screwy


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## Kai (23/4/09)

manticle said:


> However it also has a distinct bitter aftertaste that, to my mind is a little more like tannin in tea than a beer bitterness (obviously there's beer bitterness too).



A physical sensation akin to tea is a fairly good indicator of beer astringency. And while polyphenol extraction from the mash/sparge is indeed a process with a lot of factors that need considering, moving to a better crushing method than a coffee grinder is definitely an all-round good start.


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## Thirsty Boy (24/4/09)

I get a grippy squeaky kind of a feeling on my teeth from tannins, and the puckering drying sensation - as Kai said, a physical sensation. More so than a taste for me.

Oh - and pH... water is unfortunately not at the low end of the spectrum when you are talking about tannin extraction. Water is probably somewhere between 7 & 8 ... and tannin extraction starts to be a problem at about 6+

What you want to check, if you are trying to see if tannins were your problem, is the ph of the most dilute part of your sparge. So, from the runoff of your last batch sparge - or the total in the pot you dunk your grain bag in - the last bit. Thats where the pH will be the highest.

If higher than 6.. maybe an issue. If not.. its _probably_ something else.


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## jayse (24/4/09)

A good idea would be get a few other brewers to taste it, maybe take it into a well known and trusted brewshop.


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## manticle (24/4/09)

Screwtop said:


> BYB, might seem a silly question, but what did your beer finish at FG?
> 
> Screwy



From memory:

FG: 1.008

OG:1.057


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## manticle (24/4/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I get a grippy squeaky kind of a feeling on my teeth from tannins, and the puckering drying sensation - as Kai said, a physical sensation. More so than a taste for me.
> 
> Oh - and pH... water is unfortunately not at the low end of the spectrum when you are talking about tannin extraction. Water is probably somewhere between 7 & 8 ... and tannin extraction starts to be a problem at about 6+
> 
> ...




So now I'm a little confused. If tap water is usually in the alkaline region why do some brewers add calcium or magnesium or other things designed to raise the pH?


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## Stuster (24/4/09)

Not quite how it works, manticle. Have a look at the chapter on water chemistry in How to Brew. Link.


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## Thirsty Boy (24/4/09)

definately read teh link stu pointed to

in short - adding calcium chloride,\ or gypsum - doesn't in itself do a hell of a lot to the water pH - it adds hardness, but not pH.

However, when the calcium ions get into contact with wort compunds, they react (mostly with phytases and phosphates) in a way that release H+ ions ... and that lowers the pH from water's 7+ - down to mash level pHs of 5.2 - 5.7 ish


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## manticle (24/4/09)

I'll definitely read more but this is where it gets confusing. Below 6 is acidic but the first part of Palmer's article suggests water should be moderately alkaline (ie above 6).

However the most interesting part of the palmer article so far (have to read it again more thoroughly) is distinguishing between water pH and mash pH (mash pH being the important one). 

Thanks all for the responses and suggestions so far - a lot of things to try and understand but that's what makes it fun.


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## manticle (24/4/09)

I'm just enjoying a James Squire India Pale ale now (never actually had one before) and the bitterness in my wheat is extremely similar.

Maybe it is just the hops and my nubile, burgeoning, adolescent, perky knowledge

Single hop beers, here I come.


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## Fatgodzilla (24/4/09)

manticle said:


> I'll definitely read more but this is where it gets confusing. Below 6 is acidic but the first part of Palmer's article suggests water should be moderately alkaline (ie above 6).
> 
> However the most interesting part of the palmer article so far (have to read it again more thoroughly) is distinguishing between water pH and mash pH (mash pH being the important one).
> 
> Thanks all for the responses and suggestions so far - a lot of things to try and understand but that's what makes it fun.



So a simple type of answer for a man soon to be drunk ... and who never liked chemistry (why I became an accountant). Palmer not gelling for me tonight.

I add 5.2 stabilizer to my water PRIOR to mashing. Therefore the water I use both for mashing AND THEN sparging are both stabilized at 5.2. For the mash, this is good. Is it good for the sparge ? What will it do in the sparge ?

Also with the 5.2 in the mash water, is my mash pH level therefore 5.2 ?


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## Thirsty Boy (24/4/09)

you add enough 5.2 - then it will all be at 5.2

the question is whether the 5.2 is affecting the flavour.

5.2 adds stuff in both pH directions, that has a bit of "inertia" to it. so it takes a bit of a push to get it to move either up or down. Mostly phosphates I think. But its not flavour neutral and I know that I have seen a fair amount of talk on the Brewing Network about experienced tasters being able to pick the minerality added by using the 5.2 buffer.

So you can add enough 5.2 to make sure pH is never an issue.. but you might not want to.


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## brendanos (24/4/09)

If the sensation is predominantly on the back of your tongue I'd say it's bitterness, though if it is more of a roof-of-the-mouth sensation then it's probably tannins.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/4/09)

Red wine is a good way to find out what tannins are. Astringency is mouth puckering.Once you know them
you will not forget.Not easy to describe but if there is some thing around (astringent,tanninish) and some one to explain at that point in time its a good lesson.I hope I dont taste too much of either.
GB


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## RagingBull (7/6/09)

I've recently tasted my hydrometer sample and found it to be astringent (gravity at the time ~1022- expected final <1014). Kicking myself about it, but i know i left a few floaties from the runoff into the boil.

I dont think this astringency will ever go away, thus its probably best to dump the femented beer?


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## Ross (7/6/09)

RagingBull said:


> I've recently tasted my hydrometer sample and found it to be astringent (gravity at the time ~1022- expected final <1014). Kicking myself about it, but i know i left a few floaties from the runoff into the boil.
> 
> I dont think this astringency will ever go away, thus its probably best to dump the femented beer?




Absolutly not!!... A few floaties are not likely to have caused a problem & relying on a hydro sample which more often than not have trub mixed through them.
Try chilling & adding a bit of polyclar after the ferment if you are concerned, polyclar will help reduce harshness in the final beer.


Cheers Ross


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## RagingBull (7/6/09)

Thanks for talking some sense into me Ross,

Better organise my next order to have some polyclar before i have to crash chill this one. :icon_cheers:


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## technocat (7/6/09)

I am on tank water and pH lies in around 5-7 according to meter. I do water additions to emulate water profile of region where style of beer is made. Don't know about mouth puckering how about a sensation of an instant hit of dryness on the palate would be how I would describe astringency.


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