# Save $ And Time



## The King of Spain (18/5/08)

LPG is expensive compared to your off-peak electricity. So today I used hot water from my (mains) boiler as a starting point. I was on gas for less than 90min. 

OK, maybe your all do this, but thats my lesson for today.

Cheers
KOS


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## Pumpy (18/5/08)

Sounds a good idea KOS 

I always was under the misconception it was not safe drinking water from the hotwater tank dont ask me why !!

Pumpy :unsure:


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## pokolbinguy (18/5/08)

Pumpy said:


> Sounds a good idea KOS
> 
> I always was under the misconception it was not safe drinking water from the hotwater tank dont ask me why !!
> 
> Pumpy :unsure:



Maybe not from a really old water heater but modern models should be health approved. Anyway once you boil the crap out of it I think all the nasties will be sorted!!


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## Leigh (18/5/08)

Hot temperature tolerant creatures love your "heat and store" type hot water services...this is why it has long been recommended to NOT drink the water...

Whether these nasties die when boiled I do not know...


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/5/08)

I always use hot water from my "hot water system".......as a starting point for my kettle


Dont know about anyone else, but to me it seems logical to fill a kettle with water @60* from my HWS than bring cold tap water to the same temp...


Call me weird...maybe I am

Damn...if only every one (could) set there HWS to strike temp........ h34r: 

leathalcorps.....I am listening....yes it aint legal...... :excl:


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/5/08)

Leigh said:


> Hot temperature tolerant creatures love your "heat and store" type hot water services...this is why it has long been recommended to NOT drink the water...
> 
> Whether these nasties die when boiled I do not know...[/quote
> 
> ...


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## Pumpy (18/5/08)

yeah suppose the boiling will get rid of the nasties 

but what about any lead and heavy metals built up in the hot water tank ,I wont be able to filter the hot water 

Or will I :unsure: 

Pumpy


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## Prawned (19/5/08)

I thought about doing this a few weeks ago too as i dont have an electric HLT yet.. done it in the last few brews and havent seen any problems


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## Aaron (19/5/08)

After years of a gas heated hlt I switched to a large electric urn and wouldn't look back. The timer turns it on before I get up on brew day and the water is ready for mash in as soon as I am up. I guess you could produce a similar system with gas solenoids etc but I imagine it would be a lot more complicated.


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## kram (19/5/08)

I've used hot tap water for all my grain beers. I've just purchased a water filter and will now be using cold filtered tap water. Won't know the improvements until I get a few beers down.


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## Ross (19/5/08)

I've always used hot water straight from the immersion tank. The time it saves in the morning is invaluable; I just have time to crack the grain & get ready as it hits mash in temp. My understanding is a little copper is good for your brew & since mine is rain water, it needs all the mineral help going  

Cheers Ross


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## kabooby (19/5/08)

I always use hot water to fill my HLT. Even your cold water spends a lot of time in copper pipes and metal reservoirs so I dont see it being any different. Our HWS is set to about 60C so if any bacteria is in there it wont last a 90 min boil.

The 60C temp cools a bit when I add it to the HLT which makes it the perfect temp for a protein rest addition

Kabooby


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

There are no "nasties" growing in your hot water service. But to prevent the tank from corroding they use a sacrificial anode. ie, a big lump of aluminium or magnesium alloy which will oxidise quicker than the copper tank or the heater elements. Traces of this anode end up in your water. Boiling will not drive off these metals, either.

I don't know whether my HWS has one, but because I don't know, I use cold tap water to brew with.


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## /// (19/5/08)

must be dangerous stuff if we can immerse ourselves in hot water from a service for at least 10 minutes a day .... i like to rub it all over myself personally ... i love danger ...


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## geoffi (19/5/08)

I always use hot water from the tap...but then I have a Rinai on-demand LPG system.


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## Cortez The Killer (19/5/08)

Has any one done a side by side taste test of 

ordinary tap water
versus 
cooled water from their hot water system 

I'm pretty sure that there is a fairly perceptible difference

I'm tempted to use the hot water system but I still have reservations

Hmmmm..........

Cheers


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

/// said:


> must be dangerous stuff if we can immerse ourselves in hot water from a service for at least 10 minutes a day .... i like to rub it all over myself personally ... i love danger ...



I think a little more metal gets into your system from drinking than wetting yourself with it. It's probably not dangerous... probably, particularly if you have a magnesium one. I think it's mostly the loony fringe saying that aluminium is dangerous in your diet, but there are quite a few hits for "Aluminium poisoning" in google. I choose to minimise my exposure because I don't know for sure. 

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/GWH.htm


> The sacrificial anode is a metal rod usually magnesium or aluminum which helps prevent corrosion of the metal tank. Electrolysis eats away the metal anode instead of the metal of the tank. Once the anode is gone the tank itself begins to corrode. To prolong the life of the tank, make sure your anode rod is still there, and replace it when needed.
> 
> The anode is screwed into the top of the tank and can be replaced. Sometimes the anode is built into a special outlet fitting. Softeners can cause the anode to wear out more quickly.
> 
> Bacteria can react with magnesium anodes causing hydrogen sulfide which can cause a rotten egg odor. Switching to an aluminum anode rod can help eliminate the odor problems.


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## bugwan (19/5/08)

I've been using hot water from the system since I began brewing. I really don't see many reasons why you wouldn't... I can be brewing within minutes rather than hours using this set up.

That said, I like to brew early now, so I've started pre-filling my HLT the night before and setting the timer on the heater automatically, so I can mash in wearing pyjamas. My next plan is to hook up the hot water to a PC-controlled solenoid, which will fill the HLT with hot water and cut down on costs again.


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## /// (19/5/08)

Taking a more serious tact if your a brewery you have a massive tank with an element in it and keep it heated most of the time, whats the difference from that to a Hot Water Heater??

My MASTER Brewer when working at Bass's Hope and Cannon brewery in Sheffield had a heat tolerant bacteria in their HLT. Took them a while to locate the source, contributed a 'wet dog' aroma to the beer which they could pick up against the other Bass brewery beers. Consumers did not mind either, seeing they made 300HL evey 3 hours but took them ages to get rid of it.

And just as a thought, if metals are very high in your liquor, this will start to wreak havoc on your fermentations (EPM pathway, flocculation and esterfication).


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

/// said:


> Taking a more serious tact if your a brewery you have a massive tank with an element in it and keep it heated most of the time, whats the difference from that to a Hot Water Heater??



A big hunk of magnesium or aluminium that's designed to dissolve!


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## /// (19/5/08)

MG would in too high levels would cause major issues, on you and the beer. Magnesium salts in Burton beers are good for cleaning you out!

For the bacterial side, would the same bacteria able to cope with 60C be able to cope with 105 odd C??


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## Ross (19/5/08)

PostModern said:


> There are no "nasties" growing in your hot water service. But to prevent the tank from corroding they use a sacrificial anode. ie, a big lump of aluminium or magnesium alloy which will oxidise quicker than the copper tank or the heater elements. Traces of this anode end up in your water. Boiling will not drive off these metals, either.
> 
> I don't know whether my HWS has one, but because I don't know, I use cold tap water to brew with.




Out of interest, where is this sacrificial anode placed?? 30 years in the scrap trade & handling thousands of HWS's I've never noticed one. Not saying thet are not there, just curious.

cheers Ross


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

Ross said:


> Out of interest, where is this sacrificial anode placed?? 30 years in the scrap trade & handling thousands of HWS's I've never noticed one. Not saying thet are not there, just curious.
> 
> cheers Ross



Posted this link http://www.chilipepperapp.com/GWH.htm before, has a pic. The anode goes in the top of the HWS. Might be an American only thing? As I said above, I have never seen one in my tank. Then again, Rheem Australia mentions them http://www.rheem.com.au/faq.asp?view=anode


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## Ross (19/5/08)

PostModern said:


> Posted this link http://www.chilipepperapp.com/GWH.htm before, has a pic. The anode goes in the top of the HWS. Might be an American only thing? As I said above, I have never seen one in my tank. Then again, Rheem Australia mentions them http://www.rheem.com.au/faq.asp?view=anode



thankyou


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## Darren (19/5/08)

/// said:


> My MASTER Brewer when working at Bass's Hope and Cannon brewery in Sheffield had a heat tolerant bacteria in their HLT. Took them a while to locate the source, contributed a 'wet dog' aroma to the beer which they could pick up against the other Bass brewery beers.




///,

You mean that heat resistent bacteria can survive HLT, mash and boil??


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

Ross said:


> thankyou



My pleasure 

Here's another page:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHR...ter-anodes.html

At the top, there is a pic of a spent anode next to a fresh one. All that metal would have come out thru the hot water taps. Sure most of it goes down the drain after a shower, but if you fill your HLT and cooking pots with it, a large proportion would have gone thru your intestinal tract, liver, kidneys and bladder as well.

EDIT: This page also mentions the hot water odour problem as well.


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## beeroclock (19/5/08)

Darren said:


> ///,
> 
> You mean that heat resistent bacteria can survive HLT, mash and boil??





/// said:


> Magnesium salts in Burton beers are good for cleaning you out!




just az well eh? some punters are full of ...


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## newguy (19/5/08)

Darren said:


> ///,
> 
> You mean that heat resistent bacteria can survive HLT, mash and boil??



Scientists have determined that the bacteria found around hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor can tolerate temperatures up to 80C. More info here. I don't know if they'd survive the boil, but they'd tolerate the mash for sure. Who knows what sort of things they'd create while they were alive and at work? I doubt that the boil would drive off these off flavours either. Same goes for anything lurking in your hot water tank. For what it's worth, I use hot water for brewing and don't have any issues.


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## Cortez The Killer (19/5/08)

Another sorta on point question...

Are there any ill effects or perceptible odours when using a run of the mill garden hose to fill the HLT

I know when you drink water from a garden hose you get that rubbery garden hose taste (even after running the hose for a while) 

Does this taste flow through to the final product?

I recently filled up one of my kegs (for soda water) from a garden hose and I think I perceived a slight taste initially - but haven't noticed it since

Cheers


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

beeroclock said:


> just az well eh? some punters are full of ...



Indeed.



Cortez The Killer said:


> Another sorta on point question...
> 
> Are there any ill effects or perceptible odours when using a run of the mill garden hose to fill the HLT
> 
> ...



I reckon the carbonic acid in the soda will mask hose flavours. I avoid the hose for drinking and brewing water, personally, but as you can see from above, I'm more fussy than most.


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

PostModern said:


> I reckon the carbonic acid in the soda will mask hose flavours. I avoid the hose for drinking and brewing water, personally, but as you can see from above, I'm more fussy than most.



I think you could most probably even drive it off. Maybe vent the keg a few times and the CO2 will carry it away ??

Warren -


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## white.grant (19/5/08)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Another sorta on point question...
> 
> Are there any ill effects or perceptible odours when using a run of the mill garden hose to fill the HLT
> 
> I know when you drink water from a garden hose you get that rubbery garden hose taste (even after running the hose for a while)



I use my garden hose all of the time, once the lizards get washed out, everything tastes fine.

grant


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> I think you could most probably even drive it off. Maybe vent the keg a few times and the CO2 will carry it away ??
> 
> Warren -



Like burping out the hop aromas? Is rubber hose flavour volatile enough to blow away? (Gah, honestly, I don't care to know if it is )



Grantw said:


> I use my garden hose all of the time, once the lizards get washed out, everything tastes fine.
> 
> grant



Good luck to the hose users! I have an outside tap just above corny height right next to my keg fridge and easy HDPE bucket carrying distance from my HLT. Personally, like Cortez, I have tasted cooled hot water service water and didn't like it. I have (naturally) tasted my fair share of garden hose water as well. Also, I don't like it. So I leave both sources out of my brewing. The stuff straight from the tap tastes fine, so I use it, with some calcium salts to assist the mash and add some "body" to the water. I also put some of those same salts into soda water kegs. (Calcium also apparently helps prevent takeup of Aluminium by the body).

If you're fine with hose water and hot water tank water, and you're happy with your results using same in the brewery, then all power to you.


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## /// (19/5/08)

Darren said:


> ///,
> 
> You mean that heat resistent bacteria can survive HLT, mash and boil??



In the Bass instance, the bacteria had an effect on the mash. Far from a microbiologist, but i do remember Dave Logsdon from Wyeast raising the topic of biofilm's on heat exchangers and advising some of the nasties were not killed until extreme heat over 100c is applied. Seems the nasties build a polyusachridae film over themselves to survive.


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## maltedhopalong (19/5/08)

> The reason is that hot water dissolves contaminants more quickly than cold water, and many pipes in homes contain lead that can leach into water. And lead can damage the brain and nervous system, especially in young children.


 - The EPA in the NY Times



> Water heaters can have a big impact on water quality. That is one reason why you should not drink hot tap water. As water heaters age, the components in the water heater tank and the tank itself breaks down. You may find white flakes in your faucet screens. These are usually present when the dip tube (a plastic pipe in your water heater) starts to flake apart. You may see a clear or green gel like substance if you draw a bath of hot water. This is caused from the anode rod, found in all water heaters, breaking down. And your hot water may smell odd. This too is caused by the chemical reaction between the anode rod and the water or by bacteria in the water heater. If any of these conditions are of concern, call a plumber to investigate the problem.


 - An American Water Authority



> It is best to use cold water. Hot water is more likely to contain dissolved contaminants from your household plumbing system. These contaiminants may include rust, copper and lead.


 - An American City Council

So the dangers are: metals and metal salts dissolving in the water, breakdown of the dip tube and potentially bacteria proliferating in the warmth.

If you see green scum or white flakes in your water, you're not going to brew with it. Considering I've known people who have drunk water from their green, coroded taps their whole lives where the water comes out brown from the water tank or dam or whatever, I think the safety risk is overstated. I'm sure it's there, but it's never bothered them and it's never bothered me.

As far as bacteria goes, i don't think nasties from the bottom of the ocean will be travelling to my place any time soon. Also, it's not just the 100 degree temperature that kills bugs, but the effect of boiling, it's a violent affair that they just can't handle. Besides, if any bugs somehow managed to survive the boil, you'd know it in your fermentation (as did the commercial brewery). Further to that, if my HWS was a cesspool of bacteria, then it would be an ideal place for them to multiply, and they wouldn't stop until they'd taken over the world. So I'm sure there's SOME bacteria in there but I doubt they like it.

My 2,836,183,438,867 Argentinian peso's worth (two cents) - Pour a cup of hot and a cup of cold water, drink them and if you notice a difference you're not comfortable with, don't brew with it. I still will be, after all the instructions on those Coopers cans says "add hot tap water"!!!


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## newguy (19/5/08)

maltedhopalong said:


> As far as bacteria goes, i don't think nasties from the bottom of the ocean will be travelling to my place any time soon. Also, it's not just the 100 degree temperature that kills bugs, but the effect of boiling, it's a violent affair that they just can't handle. Besides, if any bugs somehow managed to survive the boil, you'd know it in your fermentation (as did the commercial brewery). Further to that, if my HWS was a cesspool of bacteria, then it would be an ideal place for them to multiply, and they wouldn't stop until they'd taken over the world. So I'm sure there's SOME bacteria in there but I doubt they like it.



Weird timing. Just watched a documentary on caves. One of the scientists said that at the moment, the highest heat tolerant bacteria that science is aware of can survive 113C.

I'm sure that there aren't any bottom-of-the-ocean bacteria in my hot water tank either, but there could be several varieties that normally don't thrive anywhere else.


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## Pumpy (19/5/08)

Yep the only Heavy Metal I want to be putting into my body is via my ears not my stomach :super: 


Pumpy


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

The King of Spain said:


> LPG is expensive compared to your off-peak electricity. So today I used hot water from my (mains) boiler as a starting point. I was on gas for less than 90min.
> 
> OK, maybe your all do this, but thats my lesson for today.
> 
> ...



:lol: King of Spain merely asks this (or actually states his findings). Funny how threads tend to take on a life of their own. <_< 

KOS If you come up with something new it pays not to post it these days.

Warren -


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## newguy (19/5/08)

Pumpy said:


> Yep the only Heavy Metal I want to be putting into my body is via my ears not my stomach :super:



Same here. I never thought that lead was an issue, at least for me, because I live in a not-too-old house (1979) and the pipes are all copper. But a few months ago the local paper ran a story regarding the lead distribution pipes still in use in some of the older areas of the city. :blink: 

Thankfully my neighbourhood isn't serviced by lead pipes. At least according to the newspaper. <_<


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## matti (19/5/08)

I prefer using cold water as I am trying to brew lagers quite often.
Just googled this.
It supports the PoMo talk about anodes.
My self, I got a Rinnai instant water heater
LINKY


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> KOS If you come up with something new it pays not to post it these days.



Are you saying that he should remain ignorant? The idea of discussion is that we might do some learnin'.

EDIT: Not saying that KOS is ignorant in general, but about sacrificial anodes. Even our former scrap metal dealer didn't know about them. Cheers for the extra link, matti.


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

PostModern said:


> Are you saying that he should remain ignorant? The idea of discussion is that we might do some learnin'.
> 
> EDIT: Not saying that KOS is ignorant in general, but about sacrificial anodes. Even our former scrap metal dealer didn't know about them. Cheers for the extra link, matti.



Not at all. Just that these threads at times seem to be a panacea for self-appointed luminaries to scare-monger. KOS has gone from a sacrificial anode to a sacrificial lamb. He merely thought he was giving a good tip in regards to a saving on energy costs by passing his water through a hot water heater that really doesn't present the water to anything scarier than that of a cold water pipe.

I dare say plenty of people have grimy uncleaned HLTs too. Effectively a worse medium than a domestic HWS that at least has water continually passing through it.

Edit: I'll rephrase to a degree. If your HWS is fairly new I'd say no worries. If its a little dated I'd say that common sense would prevail.

Warren -


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

Fair enough. As I said, if the water doesn't smell or taste off, use it. Mine does. 12 year old heater.


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

PostModern said:


> Fair enough. As I said, if the water doesn't smell or taste off, use it. Mine does. 12 year old heater.



:lol: You have a gem then... Isn't a given that they only have a 10 year duty cycle these days.

Scary actually, ours is a 5 year old Aquamax and it's already blown a control unit. $400 later and five minutes work from the Plumber its functioning again. <_< 

Warren -


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## SJW (19/5/08)

> I always use hot water from the tap...but then I have a Rinai on-demand LPG system.


+1 me too.

Where is Darren anyway? he could have a field day on this subject, just think about the BOTULISM risk........

Steve


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

Had mine looked at by a plumber last year. He replaced the pressure relief valve, adjusted the thermostat and gave it a clean bill of health. I don't like the water quality, but that's just me. It's only got to last me 18 more months and I'll be happy. New one goes in my new house.


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## maltedhopalong (19/5/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> :lol: King of Spain merely asks this (or actually states his findings). Funny how threads tend to take on a life of their own. <_<
> 
> KOS If you come up with something new it pays not to post it these days.
> 
> Warren -



I certainly hope KOS hasn't taken offence. Some have poo-poo'd the idea, but as far as I can see, it's all in the name of collating information.

I'll reply to a topic even if I don't have the answer to the question asked if I think I can at least add some relevant information that someone would find useful. This isn't limited to the original poster either, I try to post with the future forum searcher in mind as well. I'd hope most others do the same.

Hot water to fill up your HLT... I like the idea personally, others don't :shrugs:


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## mikelinz (19/5/08)

Ross said:


> Out of interest, where is this sacrificial anode placed?? 30 years in the scrap trade & handling thousands of HWS's I've never noticed one. Not saying thet are not there, just curious.
> 
> cheers Ross



maby they disolved already <grin>;0


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## beerguide (19/5/08)

I'm actually glad KOS bought this up. I've just 'discoverd' the joys of water from the hot water system to reduce the length my brew day. 
Whilst all this fear and talk of disolved metals etc may or may not be true. It does ask the question, is it safe to use stored hot water from a hot water system. Imagine if no one questioned the use of Asbestos?

I like the idea of using pre-heated water, but will be doing a bit more reading now as things like the anode I'd never even heard of before.


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## PostModern (19/5/08)

mikelinz said:


> maby they disolved already <grin>;0



Basically, by the time Ross saw them, they would have been a little steel wire hanging into the tank. The reason most enameled tanks fail is because the anode finishes sacrificing itself and the tank itself begins to corrode. If he only saw copper and stainless tanks, they don't need anodes (but cost a shitload).


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## Ross (19/5/08)

PostModern said:


> Basically, by the time Ross saw them, they would have been a little steel wire hanging into the tank. The reason most enameled tanks fail is because the anode finishes sacrificing itself and the tank itself begins to corrode. If he only saw copper and stainless tanks, they don't need anodes (but cost a shitload).



Ahhhhh.... that explains it, we only cut open & recycled copper ones


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## Stuster (19/5/08)

So, in theory would any of this apply to instant hot water heaters?

(In theory only for me as I've gone back to filtering my brewing water so cold only for me. It's hardly an issue though as I usually use 4kg or so of grain and the 12L of water for mash in takes 5-10 minutes with the NASA.  )


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## geoffi (19/5/08)

Stuster said:


> So, in theory would any of this apply to instant hot water heaters?
> 
> (In theory only for me as I've gone back to filtering my brewing water so cold only for me. It's hardly an issue though as I usually use 4kg or so of grain and the 12L of water for mash in takes 5-10 minutes with the NASA.  )



Not if it's gas, for sure. And I doubt that an instant electric system would need such a thing either.


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## Guest Lurker (20/5/08)

Interesting tangent this thread has headed. I always thought the only difference in hot water would be less dissolved oxygen. But corrosion is a big deal in Perth water, I had to replace my last HWS which had corroded out, and the plumber suggested you need to replace the anode every few years in Perth. There are companies that make a business out of doing only that, replacing anodes in hot water systems. So, thinking about it....

The anode is a quite long but small diameter rod, maybe it would weigh 1 kg.
The average water consumption in western society is about 200 l/person/day
I am going to guess about 20% of total consumption is hot water
A house with 2 people in it would use 200*20%*2*365 = about 30,000 l/year
If "a few years" from my plumber = 4 years, the total water through the system = 120,000 l
1 kg of anode dissolved in that water is an average concentration of 8 mg/l

In reality some of that anode metal would probably form non bio-available complexes, and there would be a fair variation depending on how long the water was in the tank, but still, as a ballpark number, thats quite high.
If my anode is zinc, then I wouldnt like to be drinking more than 2 l of my hot water a day.
If my anode is magnesium, then I wouldnt be concerned about that level at all and would drink loads of hot water
Aluminium limits arent very well defined, but I would prefer not to drink much of my hot water at 8 mg/l aluminium.

Might go find out what my anode is made of.


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## T.D. (20/5/08)

Is it correct to assume that all of that anode will end up dissolved in the water? Surely some would end up rattling around on the bottom of the tank? And further to that, doesn't the presence of an anode imply a chemical reaction is taking place? Therefore, is it actually the metal itself that is being dissolved in the water? Perhaps its just a compound that contains that metal? I am far from an expert in this stuff, so I am certainly not disputing what others have said, just providing a bit of food for thought...


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## Guest Lurker (20/5/08)

T.D. said:


> Is it correct to assume that all of that anode will end up dissolved in the water? Surely some would end up rattling around on the bottom of the tank? And further to that, doesn't the presence of an anode imply a chemical reaction is taking place? Therefore, is it actually the metal itself that is being dissolved in the water? Perhaps its just a compound that contains that metal? I am far from an expert in this stuff, so I am certainly not disputing what others have said, just providing a bit of food for thought...



It will depend on the pH and what else is in the water, in Perth where my water is at pH 8.5, most of the metal will not be in solution and isnt really available for biological uptake, but when I acidify my water for brewing, a lot of it will come back into solution.


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## Julez (20/5/08)

Why not just run hot tap water through a carbon filter? That way you get your hot water and all the metals and gunk are filtered out... :huh:


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## PostModern (20/5/08)

Guest Lurker said:


> Interesting tangent this thread has headed. I always thought the only difference in hot water would be less dissolved oxygen. But corrosion is a big deal in Perth water, I had to replace my last HWS which had corroded out, and the plumber suggested you need to replace the anode every few years in Perth. There are companies that make a business out of doing only that, replacing anodes in hot water systems. So, thinking about it....
> 
> The anode is a quite long but small diameter rod, maybe it would weigh 1 kg.
> The average water consumption in western society is about 200 l/person/day
> ...



Thanks for doing the maths, GL. The way I did the math (a lot like my brewing) was just to look at a pic of the rod and imagine eating it over 5-7 years. Um, no thanks. Obviously a lot of it end up down the drain with the laundry detergent, dish water and shower, but even so...


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## Julez (20/5/08)

Julez said:


> Why not just run hot tap water through a carbon filter? That way you get your hot water and all the metals and gunk are filtered out... :huh:



Just checked my own filter and it's operating range is from 4 - 82 degrees C. So to me that's the best solution. Crank the hot tap and run it through the filter. B)


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## Leigh (20/5/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Not at all. Just that these threads at times seem to be a panacea for self-appointed luminaries to scare-monger.



And likewise there are the self-appointed people who read far too much into some comments...

Scare-mongering, information gathering, debate, discussion...I see it as the latter 2 myself...

People "happily" inhabit temperatures of between 10 and 30 degrees, but are also found in areas where the temparature is -60 or +50 as well...


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## bconnery (20/5/08)

Leigh said:


> People "happily" inhabit temperatures of between 10 and 30 degrees, but are also found in areas where the temparature is -60 or +50 as well...


So you recommend +50 temps to get rid of the people from the brew then?


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## PostModern (20/5/08)

bconnery said:


> So you recommend +50 temps to get rid of the people from the brew then?



Well, tbh, I'd be happier at -30 than +50.


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## Leigh (20/5/08)

bconnery said:


> So you recommend +50 temps to get rid of the people from the brew then?



Would depend on what "time" you held them at the temperature, and also how "vigourous" the environment was...

Would a cyclonic 50 be more effective, or a stagnant 50


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## maltedhopalong (20/5/08)

The sacrificial annodes don't dissolve, they react with the corrosive elements to form salts. The assumption people are making is that these metals don't precipitate out and form crud at the bottom of the HWS. Magnesium oxide for example is "insoluble" in water - it's not COMPLETELY insoluble but it's chemically described as insoluble because so little of it is able to be absorbed by the water - it's far too heavy. So quite a fair bit wouldn't even make it out of the tank. Further than that, using the magnesium oxide example, it's pretty poorly absorbed by the human body. Doctors recommend Magnesium Aspartate, Magnesium Glycinate etc. etc. because these are much more effectively absorbed by the body where a magnesium supplement is required.

Bottom line is, don't think about eating the annode, think about licking it a couple of times over a few years.


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## PostModern (20/5/08)

maltedhopalong said:


> Bottom line is, don't think about eating the annode, think about licking it a couple of times over a few years.



Until it's all gone.

Got any stats on the number of Al vs Mg anodes in Aussie tanks?


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## barry2 (20/5/08)

Interesting thread.

A few quotes from a plumbing website in Sydney.

Every brand of mains-pressure hot water storage heater with a vitreous enamel (glass) lined tank, is fitted with one or two sacrificial anodes, to ensure that corrosion cannot take place during the warranty period of the tank. In Sydney, where the water quality is quite good, (an averageTDS* reading of 90 parts per million) anodes in small water heaters can last for as little as 4 or 5 years before being expended and thus allowing corrosion to commence. NB: Refer to the section - How long should an anode last before it needs replacement to see how long an anode should last for all sizes of water heaters.

Anodes are manufactured from a special grade of magnesium and they protect steel by a sacrificial electro-chemical action. Magnesium is electro-negative relative to steel. When a magnesium rod is fitted to a steel hotwater tank filled with fresh water, a current will constantly flow through the water between the rod and any exposed steel area on the tank wall. The circuit is completed through the tank back to the magnesium rod. This protective current is produced by the magnesium releasing ions, and this results in corrosion in the anodic area. This type of rust protection is called sacrificial. The magnesium (the anode) corrodes instead of the steel tank (the cathode). This principle of electrolytic corrosion control is called cathodic protection. Because cathodic surfaces cannot rust, the hot tank is protected.

The older a water heater is, the greater the likelihood of it having little or no remaining active anode and at the same time, having experienced an appreciable deterioration of the "glass" lining, thus leaving areas of' exposed steel wall where corrosion may have already started. While that corrosion cannot be reversed, it can certainly be arrested by the introduction of a new anode, which can get to work by reversing the electrical flow and converting the hot water tank wall back to a cathode (parts of it will have become anodic after the original anode ceased operating).

Once there is any discolouration of the hot water, the heater is usually too badly rusted to be saved by fitting a new anode. It's a simple matter to test for rust damage of the tank by filtering the hot water through several layers of closely woven white cloth directly from the hot tap for 30 seconds. (A make-up removal pad also works very well). Any tank corrosion will cause some discolouration of the water which will be evident on the cloth

http://www.calltheplumber.net.au/hot-water/


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## kram (20/5/08)

Julez said:


> Just checked my own filter and it's operating range is from 4 - 82 degrees C. So to me that's the best solution. Crank the hot tap and run it through the filter. B)


Mine is much the same as this, I would void my warranty for the filter/housing if I use it with water over 32. Not sure how they'd know though.


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## The King of Spain (20/5/08)

Wow! Whats that, 67 posts? Hey some pretty good stuff too. Plan B was always to convert to natural gas (methane) from the street when I do re-do our kitchen. Thats cheap too..

Cheers
KOS


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## Pumpy (20/5/08)

The King of Spain said:


> Wow! Whats that, 67 posts? Hey some pretty good stuff too. Plan B was always to convert to natural gas (methane) from the street when I do re-do our kitchen. Thats cheap too..
> 
> Cheers
> KOS



Thats it I am going to bed ,KOS you create a monster of using a electric water heater ,Then you kill it off by saying you were going to use natural gas anyway .

Pumpy


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## LethalCorpse (21/5/08)

Bugger. Very much my kinda thread, but I only find it after pretty much all my points have already been brought up. A few comments, though, if you'll permit me:



Ducatiboy stu said:


> Damn...if only every one (could) set there HWS to strike temp........
> 
> leathalcorps.....I am listening....yes it aint legal......


Dunno, is it? Mine's a Rheem with an adjustable thermostat between 50C and 80C, currently set at 75C. It's a small unit and I'd rather use more power keeping it at a hotter temperature than run out of hot water every time I take a shower. You can't access that without taking off the cover plate, and you can't take off the cover plate without shutting off the power, and since it's a fixed appliance you can't do any of that unless you're an electrician. I, of course, know what's under there and what it's set to because an electrician friend showed me.
Seriously, though, there's exposed live terminals in there. Refer to sig.


warrenlw63 said:


> Not at all. Just that these threads at times seem to be a panacea for self-appointed luminaries to scare-monger.


Who, me? I'm not self-appointed, I was appointed by the Luminary General. 

There's a big difference between scare-mongering and discussion, debate and efforts to pass on acquired knowledge to others to allow them to make their own informed decisions. I'm sure scare-mongering goes on occasionally, but don't confuse the former with the latter. Just because you don't think that something is an issue, don't let it upset you when other people want to talk about it. I know I bring up corrosion a lot, but that's because there are threads discussing related questions a lot (this thread is in large part about the same issue), and I speak from a reasonably well informed position. I don't consider it to be an unassailable position though, and every time I do bring it up I'm presenting information, not telling anyone what decision to make. I also know that you're mostly pulling the piss, but you're laying it on a tad thick. And I think you misused panacea BTW. I'd've gone for soap box or pulpit. Luminaries was a good one though 


warrenlw63 said:


> :lol: You have a gem then... Isn't a given that they only have a 10 year duty cycle these days.
> 
> Scary actually, ours is a 5 year old Aquamax and it's already blown a control unit. $400 later and five minutes work from the Plumber its functioning again. <_<
> 
> Warren -


This intrigued me, because I thought they all came with at least five years warranty, mostly ten and up to twenty, so I checked the aquamax website. Slippery bastards eh? They give you a 5yr warranty on the cylinder, but a 1yr warranty on parts and labour.

Back on topic, like I said, most of my points are already here. I've seen a few sources which discourage drinking hot water because metals dissolve more readily in hot water than cold, and there's a whole range of heavy metals in the system including lead. I did see one story which gave an analysis with quite high levels of dissolved lead, aluminium, copper and even mercury, but I think it might have been on ACA or similar and therefore not worth referencing. There's the ever-present spectre of galvanic corrosion *winks at Warren* dissolving metal solids from the sacrificial anode and other assorted fittings, which results in greater concentrations than in other examples (like HLT, mashtun and fittings) because there's more metal involved and it sits there for longer periods of time. Then there's the bacteria, which probably isn't, but might be living happily in your water tank. This bacteria won't make it through the boil, but off-flavours and aromas from what it does before it gets to the kettle might. Then of course there's the years worth of other mineral deposits built up on the inside of the heater.

None of this is going to kill you. I'd be hard pressed to mount an argument for it potentially making you sick (though continued consumption of concentrated dissolved metal solids certainly can). I'd go so far as to contest that it might, to some extent, affect the flavour and quality of your beer, though. Traditional brewing lore says that the quality of the brewing water is of utmost importance. I can taste the difference between different sources of tap water around Australia, and between those and bottled water or fresh water out of mountain springs. You'd be mad not to think that those differences aren't perceptible after you've made beer out of the water. All of things above can affect the taste of the water, as can using non-food-grade plastics and hoses. Like PoMo said, if you can taste the hose when you're drinking out of it, don't brew with it. I'd love to be brewing beside the source of a mountain spring, or somewhere in Tasmania (you guys got good water, which I can taste in Boags), but in the meanwhile I'll settle for not adding anything more to my tap water than gets added on its way to me.


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## warrenlw63 (21/5/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> This intrigued me, because I thought they all came with at least five years warranty, mostly ten and up to twenty, so I checked the aquamax website. Slippery bastards eh? They give you a 5yr warranty on the cylinder, but a 1yr warranty on parts and labour.



Sorry to go a little O/T again guys but I'll give you a toldyaso here LC. It was "gulp!" galvanic corrosion that killed the gas control unit.  

Quite a bit of it too.  

Warren -


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## LethalCorpse (21/5/08)

Bugger. How'd that happen? Shouldn't be in contact with the water should it?


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## warrenlw63 (21/5/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Bugger. How'd that happen? Shouldn't be in contact with the water should it?



From memory, (I should look the old controller is still down the sideway). It was the interface/gasket area where the controller mates up with the tank. Some water leakage (I think) occurs around this area and corrodes the area where the bolts hold the controller to the tank?

Just stood there happy as Larry thinking it would not be that expensive after it took the plumber 5 minutes to replace it only to be told the job would cost us $400 when he cleaned up. <_< 

I'm in the wrong caper. Easy as to change upon observation and I'm guessing the new controller was less than half that price.  

Warren -


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## T.D. (21/5/08)

maltedhopalong said:


> The sacrificial annodes don't dissolve, they react with the corrosive elements to form salts.


This was precisely my thinking. The whole idea of an anode surely implies a chemical reaction with the metal to form some other chemical compound which is nothing like either of the two elements that make it up. Its not like eating the metal because the stuff that corrodes off the anode by that stage is a totally different substance.


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## mfdes (21/5/08)

Why I'm not worried: 

As has been pointed out, magnesium is not really a problem in the levels that normally occur in hot water. Now with aluminium, as has been stated, the levels are not well defined. However keep in mind that when you chew on one of the popular brands of antacid you're eating 500mg of aluminium hydroxide. These have never been identifying as posing a threat to your health. 
I'd be more concerned about lead in brass fittings and solder. If you hot water system was plumbed according to specs lead free solder should have been used. Lead in brass (a very small amount) can dissolve in acidic solutions, but brass fittings for hot water systems are designed assuming people are stupid and WILL drink water from the tank. 

When it comes to bacteria it is a simple thing to beef up your hot water tank to run above pasteurisation temperature (63 degrees +). If you have kiddies you may not want to do this, and it IS more expensive to run the hotter you run it at, but it's not hard to do.

Just my 2c.

MFS


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## bugwan (21/5/08)

Well said MFS, I had half replied along the same lines, however, I was far more vitriolic in my choice of words... Some things are better left unsaid I guess.


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## therook (21/5/08)

bugwan said:


> Well said MFS, I had half replied along the same lines, however, I was far more vitriolic in my choice of words... Some things are better left unsaid I guess.




+1 thank God for MFS, why didn't you post earlier instead of putting us through all the duplicated posts about us all going to die 

Rook


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## PostModern (21/5/08)

therook said:


> +1 thank God for MFS, why didn't you post earlier instead of putting us through all the duplicated posts about us all going to die
> 
> Rook



Who said anything about dying from using hot tank water? I said it tastes bad. Others said Mg is a tonic, others said it falls into the bottom of your tank. No-one (and I just re-read the thread to confirm) said that anyone was going to die.


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## pint of lager (21/5/08)

Thread cleanup. 

Come one people, keep it on topic.

You haven't discussed yeast health with high levels of metal salts.


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## AndrewQLD (21/5/08)

PostModern said:


> Who said anything about dying from using hot tank water? I said it tastes bad. Others said Mg is a tonic, others said it falls into the bottom of your tank. No-one (and I just re-read the thread to confirm) said that anyone was going to die.



I'm with PoMo here, while this is anecdotal and hardly evidence as such I have noticed if I make a cup of coffee by boiling water from the cold tap it tastes fine, however if I boil the water from the hot tap the coffee tastes like sh!t.

That's why I don't use the hot water service during brewing.

Andrew


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## warrenlw63 (21/5/08)

Julez said:


> Why not just run hot tap water through a carbon filter? That way you get your hot water and all the metals and gunk are filtered out... :huh:



My vote goes for Julez's post... Real common sense that everybody just sidestepped I think.  

Any reasons this would not work or are water filters big, bad and bitey too? B) 

Warren -


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## PostModern (21/5/08)

I did a small test yesterday to validate what I was saying. I filled a pint glass from the hot tap, filled another from the cold tap and left them on the bench until they were the same temp. The hot water one tasted rank. Not like it was infected, but there is a distinct metallic taste.

Filtering is common sense and it would bear some experimentation for anyone who reckons their filter will survive the heat.

I'd offer to test, but I don't have a bench filter, our tap water here is so damn sweet, I don't see the need. If someone wants to run some hot water thru a filter, measure the temp and give a before and after taste test, then we'd know. It might just be a matter of replacing the anode.


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## Darren (21/5/08)

AndrewQLD said:


> I'm with PoMo here, while this is anecdotal and hardly evidence as such I have noticed if I make a cup of coffee by boiling water from the cold tap it tastes fine, however if I boil the water from the hot tap the coffee tastes like sh!t.
> 
> That's why I don't use the hot water service during brewing.
> 
> Andrew




+1


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## Millet Man (21/5/08)

AndrewQLD said:


> I'm with PoMo here, while this is anecdotal and hardly evidence as such I have noticed if I make a cup of coffee by boiling water from the cold tap it tastes fine, however if I boil the water from the hot tap the coffee tastes like sh!t.
> 
> That's why I don't use the hot water service during brewing.
> 
> Andrew


+2

I always fill the kettle and pots for cooking food from the cold water tap because it tastes so much better. Same goes for brewing.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Ross (21/5/08)

I've always used the hot water tank & been very happy with the results - might do the hot & cold water test though & see if there's a difference in the taste... will definately change if it tastes bad...

cheers Ross


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## Pumpy (21/5/08)

Julez said:


> Why not just run hot tap water through a carbon filter? That way you get your hot water and all the metals and gunk are filtered out... :huh:






mmmmmmmmmmmJulez correct me if i am wrong but carbon filter wont get rid of heavy metals !!!!

dont you need a 'CZR /Carbon filter '

pumpy


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## bugwan (21/5/08)

I've always used hot water in the kettle for making tea. In the 8+ properties I've lived in over the last 10 years, I can't tell the difference...they all taste like tea. When I quizzed my parents on what they did for tea water a few years ago (tea aficionados by the way), they said they've always put hot water in the kettle, as it's quicker to boil! No noticeable taste difference to them either. I think we're all agreed on this - if it tastes ok, you're good to go.

Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence and does not necessarily translate to brewers across the country (or perhaps even next door). Best of luck with your chosen method... Pre-heated water saves me time and money and doesn't contribute to taste in my brews.

As home brewers, we're all anecdotalists to some point. What works in one brewery, doesn't work in another. I need to learn to respect the opinions of other brewers as much as anyone. I guess my aversion is to those who take a legit topic and pick out minutiae, creating hysteria over detail that doesn't deserve airtime... I felt it was only done in a very minor form in this thread and hey, maybe that's just my super-sensitive commercial-television-anti-exploitation-radar telling me to treat such coverage with huge scepticism, but it was still annoying to see it here all the same.


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

No one's creating hysteria. No one is suggesting anyone's going to die.


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## bugwan (22/5/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> No one's creating hysteria. No one is suggesting anyone's going to die.



Hysteria yes, death no.

The O.P. observed that using off-peak gas (from his hot water system) as a source of water for his HLT, cut down on brew costs. A great idea... but it's hardly the time for mentioning extremophilic bacteria and heavy metal contamination, surely? Maybe they belong in a microbiological enthusiasts thread?

Sometimes it's the way people type their ideas out, but other times, it's just people being difficult. I hope it's the former in this case.

Some points made in these forums (no matter how valid) are quite often irrelevant to brewers. People posting detailed, yet irrelevant, examples of their knowledge (in their area of expertise) doesn't impress me... Is this breakdown of sacrificial anodes in the slightest way relevant to a decent brew? I see no evidence, because I've brewed many a magnificent beer on my system that uses water from a (god-knows-how-old) hot water system.

Do sacrificial anodes break down in the water over time? Sure they do. Does the plastic from an Esky wall contribute flavours to a final tasting? Possibly. Am I brewing too close to a street carrying heavy traffic and adding unnecessary lead to my brew?? There are FAR TOO MANY variables outside of this topic that contribute taste effects to worry about this particular example, IMO.

Let's not be silly here - how about we try to keep things in perspective, if your hot water system spits out rusty (brown) water or it tastes like shit, then don't brew with it. But if it smells/tastes fine, then use it and don't be too persuaded by the naysayers! I did.


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

I think you're right. Hysteria has indeed been created.


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## warrenlw63 (22/5/08)

Pumpy said:


> mmmmmmmmmmmJulez correct me if i am wrong but carbon filter wont get rid of heavy metals !!!!
> 
> dont you need a 'CZR /Carbon filter '
> 
> pumpy



Looks like you're right Pumpy to remove metals you need a combination of carbon and KDF-55 filter medium. Cartridges are a little more pricey though.

KDF-55 removes algae and fungi, controls bacterial growth, removes Chlorine, Pesticides, Organic matter, Rust, Unpleasant taste and odour Hydrogen sulphide, Iron, Lead, Calcium, Aluminium, Mercury, Arsenic and other inorganic compounds. 

Warren -


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## kabooby (22/5/08)

Ross said:


> I've always used the hot water tank & been very happy with the results - might do the hot & cold water test though & see if there's a difference in the taste... will definately change if it tastes bad...
> 
> cheers Ross



+1

I will have to do a comparison just to see

Kabooby


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

And probably filters at a rate of 1L/min/m^2 at mains pressure


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## warrenlw63 (22/5/08)

Yoicks! That would take me nearly an hour to fill my HLT !! (55 litres of strike water)  

Glad I'm not using water from the HWS after all that.  

Warren -


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

Well, I was guessing, and exaggerating my guess, but really good filtration is, by definition, bloody slow.


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## bugwan (22/5/08)

I do still like the idea of an 'on-demand' gas fired system specifically for the brewery. That way you only use gas when you need it...although that kind of defeats the purpose of off-peak heating...

Apologies for the earlier rant too...it was late, I was tired and my APA had just run out.


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

All good - it's a bugger when you run out of beer. It's a nasty side effect of not brewing enough, as is irritability 

As an aside, if your hot water system is electric, and your HLT is electric, you won't save any money at all by filling from the hot tap. If you've got a thermostat control and a timer on it, you'll not save time either. If you're currently using a gas-fired HLT and concerned about your expenditure on gas, you can cut your time and money without any of the much debated metallic concerns by converting to electric.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (22/5/08)

I googled 'hot water carbon filter' and got a few (probably not authoritative) people suggesting that hot water through carbon filters might make the carbon pores expand and release any unwanted nasties they had previously trapped there.

I do not know one way or another, frankly. I'd thought about doing it and I believe there is a micro somewhere not too far away that uses a couple of instantaneous hot water services to heat their strike water, but *my* instantaneous HWS has always delivered different tasting water.

I think my immersion elements are as close to efficient as any hot water service is likely to be, so switching would not save me money, and as has been suggested before, I could automate their on/offness to have the water heating while I shower/breakfast/whatever.


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## edoeven (22/5/08)

interesting thread  I never really thought about filling my kettle from the HWS, but it would speed up brewdays thats for sure. I will do a taste test on our HWS, I think tis ok - but I should be able to get some definitive answers in a few days - I am currently doing my phd in analytical/electrochemistry so will take a few samples from our HWS (a reasonably old gas unit) and run a few AAS or ICP if needed and compare Mg/Al/Cu/Ni/Zn to what we have in the water straight from the tap.

wont be hugely relevant to anyone except me (I assume every HWS would be a slightly different case - depend on local water ph, plumbing etc) but it should be interesting anyways  will post results if/when I get around to it!


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

The good news is your immersion elements are 100% efficient - every joule of energy produced goes into the water. Your HLT insulation may not be all that crash hot (which is what affects the overall efficiency), but with the temps and times involved here it's still got to be much more efficient than gas - either fired under the tank or in an instantaneous HWS heat exchanger. Where an instant HWS wins back efficiency points against an electric system is in the fact that it's not trying to keep a large volume at temperature for long periods of time, and hence losing heat to the atmosphere - it only heats when you're using the water.


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## PostModern (22/5/08)

bugwan said:


> . but it's hardly the time for mentioning extremophilic bacteria and heavy metal contamination, surely? Maybe they belong in a microbiological enthusiasts thread?



It was just the geek in me teasing out the minutiae of things like this. Sometimes there is more to a great idea than $ and time. Exploring the fine detail is how we learn about and then expand our boundaries. It's the geeks that bring us new things from the exploration of things others know noting and care nothing about.

If it offends you, then feel free not to read the thread. 

Great posts like these below are what result from such meanderings. 

Cheers,
PoMo.



likesbeer:D said:


> interesting thread  I never really thought about filling my kettle from the HWS, but it would speed up brewdays thats for sure. I will do a taste test on our HWS, I think tis ok - but I should be able to get some definitive answers in a few days - I am currently doing my phd in analytical/electrochemistry so will take a few samples from our HWS (a reasonably old gas unit) and run a few AAS or ICP if needed and compare Mg/Al/Cu/Ni/Zn to what we have in the water straight from the tap.
> 
> wont be hugely relevant to anyone except me (I assume every HWS would be a slightly different case - depend on local water ph, plumbing etc) but it should be interesting anyways  will post results if/when I get around to it!



Yes! Please, post them. I've said it before and I'll say it again, science is nothing without measurement.



LethalCorpse said:


> The good news is your immersion elements are 100% efficient - every joule of energy produced goes into the water. Your HLT insulation may not be all that crash hot (which is what affects the overall efficiency), but with the temps and times involved here it's still got to be much more efficient than gas - either fired under the tank or in an instantaneous HWS heat exchanger. Where an instant HWS wins back efficiency points against an electric system is in the fact that it's not trying to keep a large volume at temperature for long periods of time, and hence losing heat to the atmosphere - it only heats when you're using the water.



I doubt 100%, given losses. A fair bit of heat from mine goes out thru the handle and even the cord supplying the element. Also, offpeak electricity is charged at a lower rate, so you do get more joules for your $ from an offpeak electric HWS.


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## LethalCorpse (22/5/08)

agreed - very interested in your findings, likesbeer.

BTW, aren't we all microbiological enthusiasts?


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## Cortez The Killer (6/6/08)

I did the side by side test the other day and while there was a perceptible difference between the hot and cold - I couldn't say that the hot was bad or unpleasant :mellow: 

Had SWMBO try the samples too and she preferred the hot over the cold <_< 

On the back of this I've used hot water for my last 4 batches  

Talk about time saving - I can pretty much fill the HLT and run the nasa for a couple of minutes and it's up to sparge / mash temps B) 

I'll see how the final product turns out shortly

Cheers


----------

