# Boiling Too Hard And Producing Too Many Melanoidins



## SJW (3/9/08)

After doing a lot of reasearch on the effects of boiling on wort, and a few test brews, I have found some interesting results. (Other than it gets hot!)
I was first aware of the negative effects of a hard boil after listening to the Jamil show on Kolsch and Dusseldorf Altbiers. He was saying that with a good load of munich malt in the Alt you can produce to much melanoidin by boiling a wort too hard.
Now I always thought that more was better when it cam to H.P. LPG Gas and had always boild the crap out of my worts. I confirmed this therory in Noonans and so I set to brewing a test brew.
I did a simple pils this time as I have done the most of these and would have a good base line.
Simple recipe 100% Wey. Premium Pils with Saaz and a 67 deg C mash and mash out.
I used some photos and video I have seen of some European breweries boiling and noticed they only just had it wort boiling with it bubbling on on side of the kettle only. So I pulled back on the gas and just had it rolling, still giving off steam to rid the DMS and still moving the wort around.
The results were a very clean dry beer with great hop bite and not the normal OTT malt/melamoidin kick.
Has anyone else noticed this.

Steve


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## fraser_john (3/9/08)

How was the protein coagulation in the boi? I always boil mine fairly hard and get very little protein formation!


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## Stuster (3/9/08)

SJW said:


> Has anyone else noticed this.



I think Thirsty Boy might have mentioned it once or twice.  

Interesting results there, Steve. I'll have to give this a go next brew. Unless of course I forget.  

Any effects on clarity?


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## drsmurto (3/9/08)

Dont you get melonoidins from a decoction, not from the boil?


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## SJW (3/9/08)

> Dont you get melonoidins from a decoction, not from the boil?


Thats what I thought but the the texts say otherwise. I can't put my hands on any quotes at the moment as I am at work, but I am sure someone with more brains than me could explain.




> Any effects on clarity?


None, all was good, with the normal gelatine in the keg it come out nice. I must say that technically the kettle was boiling just not jumping out of the kettle. More like a strong simmer.




> How was the protein coagulation in the boi? I always boil mine fairly hard and get very little protein formation!



Interesting...........Well the beer ended up clear as ever. I did not notice any less trube after the kettle was drained.

Steve


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## PostModern (3/9/08)

Another myth bites the dust.


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## Fourstar (3/9/08)

Interesting theory. 

I find my boils generally only get this this 'simmer' boiling point on my 3 ring with low pressure LPG reg. With a standard 60Min boil i usually get around 15% loss and low Melanoidin notes (uness i use melanoidin malt) comparing a few beers ive made with the lid 1/4 on (to increase the boil strength to a rapid boil) the malt presence is allot stronger.

will be interested to test this when i start doing lagers. will test this on a pils.


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## Adamt (3/9/08)

Sorry if this comes across as a little harsh... but isn't this pretty much common knowledge (and backed up by reputable literature)?

You say you've had some interesting results... that are exactly as predicted.

Am I missing something? :huh:


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## Thirsty Boy (3/9/08)

Not so much a myth as a misconception - most homebrewers have never seen a commercial boil, they read the texts that say you should have a vigorous rolling boil and don't know what that actually means - so just to be on the safe side, they boil hard - and that grows into the misconception that harder equals better.

Not needed as SJW has discovered - the boil must roll, so that there is a nice obvious exchange of wort from top to bottom, this gives the physical agitation required for break formation; and it must evaporate enough so that the steam carries away undesirable volatiles - if you have that, the boil is hard enough to do everything it is supposed to do. Boiling harder doesn't help anything and it might hurt.

*Fraser John -* Boil hard but can't see much break formation? it might actually (this is speculation OK) be that you are boiling too hard and that the break is smashed up into very small particles that aren't obvious to the eye, don't flock too well and are hard to keep out of your fermentor. This is one of the reasons to not boil too hard. Lovely big flakes of break that sink to the bottom in a hurry, thats what you want, and if you boil the snot out of your wort you aren't going to get it.

*DrSmurto -* you get melanoidins any time you combine heat moisture and proteins (or is it amino acids... I forget which). In the mash, in the malting house, in the boil. When your wort darkens during the boil, it is because of melanoidin formation, the notion of "caramelization" in the kettle is a myth or at least a misnomer, the temps in a kettle aren't high enough for actual caramelization, its all melanoidins.

At work we have a separate whirpool vessel, the wort normally is transferred in obliquely so it spins and it is allowed to spin for a 10min rest before transfer to chillers takes place. If for some reason the chillers aren't ready and the wort has to sit in the whirpool vessel waiting - it can darken by a couple of degrees of EBC before the transfer is done. All melanoidins, and the wort isn't even boiling anymore at that point.

*Stuster -* I tried to resist but I just couldn't help myself.... I am weak, weak like my boils 

TB


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## SpillsMostOfIt (3/9/08)

There is a new brewcast from the Brewing Network called 'Brew Strong'. It is hosted by John Palmer and that Jamil guy and has two or three episodes on the archive site.

The first one was dedicated to melanoidin formation and stuff and was a good listen.

It can be found at: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong


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## SJW (3/9/08)

> Sorry if this comes across as a little harsh... but isn't this pretty much common knowledge (and backed up by reputable literature)?
> 
> You say you've had some interesting results... that are exactly as predicted.
> 
> Am I missing something?


Sorry, they were interesting results for me anyway.


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## dr K (3/9/08)

Melanoidans..polyesters any one?
There are heaps of melanoidans, one for every amino acid -sugar combination..., you are (I believe) likely to get a greater melanoidan "creation" in kilning than anywhere else in the brewing process, melanoidan formation is much higher where there is a low moisture situation and water evaporation, say in a kiln producing Munich Malt, or roast vegetables, bread crust is a classic, so are biscuits..
You will get melanoidan formation in a mash, much much more so if it is decocted.
There is melanoidan formation in the boil but at a much lower rate than decoction or kilning. As to caramelisation, not very likely in a steam jacketed boiler but in a home brew set up with with very hot metal at the base of the kettle transferring heat through the wort to boiling then you do get at the very least browning.

K

(who cares I use Melanoidan Malt)


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## reviled (4/9/08)

SJW said:


> Sorry, they were interesting results for me anyway.



I appreciate the info mate, I hadnt read about it untill this post... Makes me happy I only have a 2 ring burner B)


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## Thirsty Boy (4/9/08)

dr K said:


> Melanoidans..polyesters any one?
> There are heaps of melanoidans, one for every amino acid -sugar combination..., you are (I believe) likely to get a greater melanoidan "creation" in kilning than anywhere else in the brewing process, melanoidan formation is much higher where there is a low moisture situation and water evaporation, say in a kiln producing Munich Malt, or roast vegetables, bread crust is a classic, so are biscuits..
> You will get melanoidan formation in a mash, much much more so if it is decocted.
> There is melanoidan formation in the boil but at a much lower rate than decoction or kilning. As to caramelisation, not very likely in a steam jacketed boiler but in a home brew set up with with very hot metal at the base of the kettle transferring heat through the wort to boiling then you do get at the very least browning.
> ...



Yes - and the browning is melanoidin formation. you would have to be using a very very hot burner concentrated in a very small spot in a very thin walled boiler to get actual caramelization. Possible, but not too likely to actually occur.

You are of course right, there are a virtually infinite number of different sorts of melanoidins that form from the different amino acid (thanks for jogging my memory) and sugar combos, but the other thing that dictates what sort of melanoidins form - is the moisture content. Different sorts of melanoidins at different levels. Thats why maltsters play around with different levels of moisture at kilning/roasting and are able to produce such a variety of flavours. Pretty much all the "malt" flavours are actually melanoidins. Wort in a kettle has a very high level of moisture and a relatively low heat (pretty much 100 max) so while there is plenty of melanoidin formation in a boil, its just that they are of a "type" - the rate of formation goes up with the vigour of the boil, because as you rightly point out, evaporation plays a part and the energy transfer from kettle wall to liquid plays a part. And that was part of the original post - that you can, if your boil is too vigorous, get really quite a lot of production of melanoidins in the kettle.

You might want those melanoidins from the boil, or depending on your beer you might not.

I prefer the flavour of those melanoidins that are produced by the Maltster, or those produced by a decoction - I find worts that are boiled to hard, to be too "intense" in their brown flavours and they get a little vegetal (sort of) to my palate. whereas the decoction melanoidins (and the melanoidin malt ones) are more toasty and fresh baked bread like. So I try to keep my boil at the minimum intensity that will do all the other things it is supposed to do, and get my melanoidins from malts or decoctions.

So mostly, I'm with you DrK - I'm really just posting about the small area where I disagree slightly with you as a way of continuing the discussion, which I think might be useful to people who haven't had a chance to do any formal reading on this sort of stuff.

Plus I have a thing about boil vigor...  

TB


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## gibbocore (4/9/08)

that was a great post, and is much appreciated.

Is there a limit to what sort of boil you can get away with and still retain hop isomerisation?


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## SJW (4/9/08)

> You might want those melanoidins from the boil, or depending on your beer you might not.
> 
> I prefer the flavour of those melanoidins that are produced by the Maltster, or those produced by a decoction - I find worts that are boiled to hard, to be too "intense" in their brown flavours and they get a little vegetal (sort of) to my palate. whereas the decoction melanoidins (and the melanoidin malt ones) are more toasty and fresh baked bread like. So I try to keep my boil at the minimum intensity that will do all the other things it is supposed to do, and get my melanoidins from malts or decoctions.



Thanks TB, I agree 100%

Steve


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## Thirsty Boy (4/9/08)

Do you mean upper or lower limit?

Upper - not really any limit, perhaps better utilization because of somewhat higher average temperature and increased physical agitation.

Lower - Well theoretically yes. The lower the temperature and the less physical movement of the wort, the less utilization you get. But practically, no. If your boil is vigorous enough to get rid of the volatiles and coagulate the proteins, then its going to be vigorous enough for you to get all the hop utilization you should expect.

Not boiling too hard - does not mean that the boil isn't still vigarous. Its just not going nuts thats all. You have to have a good rolling boil, there have to be bubbles forming and moving around, and thats good enough for both the break and the hops and the DMS etc etc. Fail to have bubbles and a roll, and you will fail to get pretty much all of what you want done in your boil.

I might have a thing about a "too vigorous" boil, but I'd much rather see someone boiling too hard than not boiling hard enough.

TB


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## Duff (4/9/08)

reviled said:


> Makes me happy I only have a 2 ring burner B)



Ditto. You don't need a NASA or equivalent if you use a flat bottom kettle like a aluminum stock pot.


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## The King of Spain (4/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Not so much a myth as a misconception - most homebrewers have never seen a commercial boil, they read the texts that say you should have a vigorous rolling boil and don't know what that actually means - so just to be on the safe side, they boil hard - and that grows into the misconception that harder equals better.
> 
> Not needed as SJW has discovered - the boil must roll, so that there is a nice obvious exchange of wort from top to bottom, this gives the physical agitation required for break formation; and it must evaporate enough so that the steam carries away undesirable volatiles - if you have that, the boil is hard enough to do everything it is supposed to do. Boiling harder doesn't help anything and it might hurt.
> 
> ...



With you there Thirsty

I was distracted on the weekend and forgot to turn my third ring back on and had a slower boil but best break ever. Big rolls of it on the bottom.


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## Bribie G (4/9/08)

Watching the Beer Hunter's tour of the Pilsener Urquell Brewery where they boil for two hours, he stuck his head in through the hatch in the copper and it was just bubbling and had almost a cauliflower head with obvioulsy whole clumps of hops 'crusting' the surface, but not what you would call a hard boil otherwise his head would have been scalded


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## SJW (4/9/08)

I think I forgot to mention in my original post, but because I have always had the wort jumpng out of the kettle I reckon that all that activity kept the hot break from clumping up like egg drop soup. With the softer boil there was a load of big hot break material.
Also I just want to mention that if I am brewing a Oktoberfest or Bock and esspecially if I dont do a decoction I will be goosing up the gas and getting the boil jumping to improve the melanoidin factor. Its just a nice change after 70 or 80 brews the old way. Might save some gas too.

Steve


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## pbrosnan (4/9/08)

dr K said:


> Melanoidans..polyesters any one?
> There are heaps of melanoidans, one for every amino acid -sugar combination..., you are (I believe) likely to get a greater melanoidan "creation" in kilning than anywhere else in the As to caramelisation, not very likely in a steam jacketed boiler but in a home brew set up with with very hot metal at the base of the kettle transferring heat through the wort to boiling then you do get at the very least browning.



I agree with TB. Caramelisation won't happen until reduced the wort to a high viscosity. You need a very high sugar concentration before you start to get caramel. Melaniodin formation seems like a much more likely explanation for wort darkening.


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## Tony (4/9/08)

Really good point Steve.

I tend to get my boil going but i try to keep it at just a nice role if you know what i mean for fear of scrotching and heat derived flavour development.

I do boil harder that a slow bubble around the edges and i get huge abounts of break. 3 to 4 inches deep. 

I think mash PH has a lot to do with The Cold break and beer clarity too. ITs not all boil related.

Another point........ i am probably wrong and have no real scientific knowledge in this but wont a boiling liquid's temperature stabalise around the 100 deg mark, maybe higher for a higher gravity liquid. Dont you need pressure to raise the temp? 

So is boil just the release of more evergy passing through the wort or a result of higher temp? Just reading what i typed in the first sentance made me question myself

cheers


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## Millet Man (4/9/08)

Tony said:


> So is boil just the release of more evergy passing through the wort or a result of higher temp? Just reading what i typed in the first sentance made me question myself
> 
> cheers


The boil is the result of putting in enough energy to vaporise water into steam. Heating water requires 4.186 kJ to raise 1 kg of water by 1 degree K. To vaporise water into steam (boil) requires 2260 kJ/kg.

So to answer your question the boil is related to how much energy you put in, temperature will be around 100C give or take a bit due to altitude, atmospheric pressure, sugar concentration etc...

Cheers, Andrew.


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## SJW (8/9/08)

Did another using the low "slow boil method" on Saturday. All went well and I think I could bring my Beersmith boil off rate back to 12% now from 15%. Thats got to be good!


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## Fourstar (8/9/08)

Good enough to lower your OG if you dont adjust your recipe!


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## SJW (16/9/08)

> Good enough to lower your OG if you dont adjust your recipe!


Pre-boil volume is less with a lower boil off %


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## technocat (20/9/08)

A slow rolling boil does me fine with no complaints with the finished product. A decoct now thats another story and I wonder if it is worthwhile for the H/brewer although many breweries in Europe use this process.


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