# Ever had a beer you thought was infected but turned out great?



## Doctormcbrewdle (13/2/18)

Just curious, I have a pale ale that didn't seem to show any physical signs of bacterial contamination in the fermenter but has a funky smell and taste reminiscent of a wheat beer.. it's been bottled 4 days now and is still there at this point

Funny thing is, I actually made a hefe prior to this one, which I'm considering the possibility of yeast being transferred on the aerator tool from 2 weeks prior or even fermenter but surely Star san would have killed anything, right? Plus, there couldn't possibly be enough yeast anyway to shine through this bad

Has anyone ever had any instances like this where conditioning the beer completely turned the tables after yeast cleaned up?

I've been noticing a little ring in the bottle neck from secondary fermentation for a while now but hear this is just krausen which makes sense and this is the only funky one I've had in a long time


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## Danscraftbeer (14/2/18)

If its finished with off flavors and aroma then its very unlikely it will improve. Sours are a different story. In general you shouldn't get a ring in the bottle neck. That is the indication of an infection. On the note of your air stone I boil mine in starsan just prior to every use. Also take care to make sure the air hose is well sanitized as well.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Thanks Dan,

Wow, I must be unwhittingly battling an infection in this case. I use plastic fermentation vessels and haven't exactly been great about sanitation. I give them a quick wipe over with a sponge after fermentation and stick them in the stinky mouldy shed, then spray with Star San all over and let soak for half an hour before syphoning a fresh wort in and pitching same day. I do have sodium percarbonate but haven't been thoroughly washing beforehand.

I would have thought that would ve enough but obviously not so?

I do aerate with a pain stirrer which of course also offers an entry point in the air for bacteria

Please feel free to crutique my process


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## Coodgee (14/2/18)

I use a silicon air hose now that can also be boiled.


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## Whistlingjack (14/2/18)

I had exactly the same thing happen recently. 

I ferment in two plastic fermenters, which I had previously used for a Hefe. Tasting the next pale ale during transfer to secondary, I detected a strong bubblegum (ethyl butyrate) ester from one of the fermenters.

I used Wyeast London Ale 1968 and initially thought I had exceeded the fermentation temp. Wyeast state that the presence of esters are not significant.

After thinking on it I noticed that the particular fermenter had a significantly shorter lag time. This leads me to believe that there was contamination with the Hefe yeast.

WJ


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## mongey (14/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Thanks Dan,
> 
> Wow, I must be unwhittingly battling an infection in this case. I use plastic fermentation vessels and haven't exactly been great about sanitation. I give them a quick wipe over with a sponge after fermentation and stick them in the stinky mouldy shed, then spray with Star San all over and let soak for half an hour before syphoning a fresh wort in and pitching same day. I do have sodium percarbonate but haven't been thoroughly washing beforehand.
> 
> ...



after every batch I fill my plastic fermenter to the top with the pink sutff and let it soak for a day or 2.

anything caked on is completely gone and a couple rinse with fresh water and its good for sanitizing



I have done say 25 batches in my fermenter over 4 years . I started doing the soak thing about batch 15. before that I thought my fermenter was clean .one time i had pink stuff made up left over from cleaning bottles so I just thought Ill pour it in the fermenter even though I had cleaned it . it filled it about 3/4 .came back the next day to drain it and the 3/4 submerged was completely white and the rest looked brown. realized it wasn't as clean as I thought it was

for how easy it is its totally worth doing


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## Matplat (14/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Thanks Dan,
> 
> Wow, I must be unwhittingly battling an infection in this case. I use plastic fermentation vessels and haven't exactly been great about sanitation. I give them a quick wipe over with a sponge after fermentation and stick them in the stinky mouldy shed, then spray with Star San all over and let soak for half an hour before syphoning a fresh wort in and pitching same day. I do have sodium percarbonate but haven't been thoroughly washing beforehand.
> 
> ...



You are running a gauntlet with that level of cleaning so it's not surprising you've copped an infection.

My fermenters get washed with hot (60deg) caustic soda after every use, some may say this is overkill, but I dropped way too many batches to infection before I started doing it, since then I haven't lost a single one. Caustic is cheap, readily available and works quickly.

After caustic has dried, they get stored with a litre of starsan in and glad wrap on. I swish the starsan round every so often and they are ready to go as soon as I am.


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## Coodgee (14/2/18)

^^ that is totally overkill! but each to his own. obviously it works! I give my fermenters a rinse under the pressure nozzle with the hose to get most of the krausen ring scum off. Then a cap-full of napisan and fill with water. I leave them like this until the next brew day when I rinse and rinse and rinse again and then sanitise with starsan. I recently smashed a fermenter with the whipper snipper so replaced it. I now have 2 fermenters that are 3 years old and one that is 2 months old. I'd give a keg of beer to anyone who could pick the new one...


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Yea, looks like I need to pick up my game in the cleaning dept.. spewing cause I was relying on this batch to get me through while my lager ferments. It's gonna take weeks!  looks like I'll be learning from this mistake for the next few weeks as I'm forced to drink them

Live n learn as they say and I guess ultimately it's a good thing if it gets me doing things right

I do actually recall this happening in the past too with a pale. Exactly the same thing happened where I brewed a hefe beforehand.. CLEAN THE F-IN FERMENTER!! Geez I'm slow on the uptake sometimes


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## Coodgee (14/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Yea, looks like I need to pick up my game in the cleaning dept.. spewing cause I was relying on this batch to get me through while my lager ferments. It's gonna take weeks!  looks like I'll be learning from this mistake for the next few weeks as I'm forced to drink them
> 
> Live n learn as they say and I guess ultimately it's a good thing if it gets me doing things right
> 
> I do actually recall this happening in the past too with a pale. Exactly the same thing happened where I brewed a hefe beforehand.. CLEAN THE F-IN FERMENTER!! Geez I'm slow on the uptake sometimes



Why do you think your lager will take weeks? I've been turning around lagers 2 weeks from grain to brain:

I've been re-pitching a big yeast cake into the next brew - airlock activity and fully formed krausen the next morning after a ~6pm pitch @ ~10 degrees.
After 3 or 4 days the krausen starts to drop and I ramp up to 17 degrees for 3-5 days. 
Then crash chill, keg with biofine clear and it's ready for serving 14 days after brew day.

Granted it gets better with time in the keg to lager, but only 10% better. This sort of process seems to be the commercial norm and becoming more and more so for home brewers.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/2/18)

I would be starting your learning curve at the start of the learning curve, never run before you can walk, cleaning and sanitising is the first thing, how do you think your lager is going?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Well, I suppose lagering in the bottle is as good as fermenter? Can't see why not. I'm interested in reusing the yeast, never done it before. How exactly do I go about this? 

I'm making another lager the very next day!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would be starting your learning curve at the start of the learning curve, never run before you can walk, cleaning and sanitising is the first thing, how do you think your lager is going?



Luckily I did scrub this one with the percarbobate. I wanted to be thoroug with it because it's so delicate. 3 days in and it smells and tastes good. Fingers crossed.. 

Funny thing is, I've been brewing for 20 years now! So not a beginner by any stretch. AG only 18 months or so though


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## wide eyed and legless (14/2/18)

Sodium perc is what I do after giving a rinse as Coodgee said, the perc will get rid of the stuck on shite I will leave it until ready for use then sanitise with phosphoric acid right before use. Bottles I either use per acetic acid or phosphoric acid again. That should be all that is needed, is there anyone around your area who could help you with your brewing?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

I'm good mate. Got a handle on the rest of it. It's just my bad habits of not thoroughly cleaning that seem to be bringing me down really

Just had another pale. Even worse today. Tastes like a mushroom!


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## wide eyed and legless (14/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I'm good mate. Got a handle on the rest of it. It's just my bad habits of not thoroughly cleaning that seem to be bringing me down really
> 
> Just had another pale. Even worse today. Tastes like a mushroom!


"Magic"


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## Mr B (14/2/18)

I had two batches get a bit of mould on them that I had fermented in the blue square Bunnings containers about 18 months ago. 

So I just put them on the bricks in front of the shed.

They are still there - I’m sort of interested to either try them or throw them out. Trying is probably the go, but you know......


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Whistlingjack said:


> I had exactly the same thing happen recently.
> 
> I ferment in two plastic fermenters, which I had previously used for a Hefe. Tasting the next pale ale during transfer to secondary, I detected a strong bubblegum (ethyl butyrate) ester from one of the fermenters.
> 
> ...




Yep, just having the wheat beer now and I'm 90% certain that's what's happened here. I'm amazed that just trace amounts I guess stuck to the sides of the fermenter can actually make it through to strike again and be so strongly felt (looked clean. Rinsed and sanitized with Star San. Did not soak or scrub though..)

If anyone's wondering, belgian style APA does NOT mix. It's a tipper. Just can't stomach this one


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Mr B said:


> I had two batches get a bit of mould on them that I had fermented in the blue square Bunnings containers about 18 months ago.
> 
> So I just put them on the bricks in front of the shed.
> 
> They are still there - I’m sort of interested to either try them or throw them out. Trying is probably the go, but you know......



You stuck the beers or fermenters on the bricks? Sorry man I'm not sure wich one you mean. If it's the beer you should stick one in the fridge and try. Though it would be off by now anyhow. But still, always good to learn first hand


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## S.E (14/2/18)

Coodgee said:


> ^^ that is totally overkill! but each to his own. obviously it works! I give my fermenters a rinse under the pressure nozzle with the hose to get most of the krausen ring scum off. Then a cap-full of napisan and fill with water. I leave them like this until the next brew day when I rinse and rinse and rinse again and then sanitise with starsan. I recently smashed a fermenter with the whipper snipper so replaced it. I now have 2 fermenters that are 3 years old and one that is 2 months old. I'd give a keg of beer to anyone who could pick the new one...



Hot caustic certainly isn’t overkill and arguably simpler and faster than the fill to the brim and soak overnight or till needed method.

What Matplat forgot to mention is you only need to heat 2-3L of water with a couple desert spoons of caustic and roll it in the fermenter for about a minute or less, job done.


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## Whistlingjack (14/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Yep, just having the wheat beer now and I'm 90% certain that's what's happened here. I'm amazed that just trace amounts I guess stuck to the sides of the fermenter can actually make it through to strike again and be so strongly felt (looked clean. Rinsed and sanitized with Star San. Did not soak or scrub though..)
> 
> If anyone's wondering, belgian style APA does NOT mix. It's a tipper. Just can't stomach this one



I'm pretty strict with cleaning and sanitising and haven't had a (noticeably) infected brew for about 30 years (I kid you not)

I can't think of any way it could have happened.

Mine wasn't so bad that I couldn't drink the keg dry.

WJ


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## Coodgee (14/2/18)

S.E said:


> Hot caustic certainly isn’t overkill and arguably simpler and faster than the fill to the brim and soak overnight or till needed method.
> 
> What Matplat forgot to mention is you only need to heat 2-3L of water with a couple desert spoons of caustic and roll it in the fermenter for about a minute or less,





Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Well, I suppose lagering in the bottle is as good as fermenter? Can't see why not. I'm interested in reusing the yeast, never done it before. How exactly do I go about this?
> 
> I'm making another lager the very next day!


Regarding re- using yeast: i time my brews so that i am pitching yeast for a new brew at the same time i am kegging the previous brew. When the new brew is at pitching temp i boil a stainless steel camp mug for 15 minutes. Then i keg the older beer and scoop most of the yeast cake into the new beer. Then hit it with oxygen for a couple of minutes and seal her up. Pretty easy. Otherwise you can collect the yeast in a sterilized container, store in fridge and pitch when ready. Saves money and gives fast clean fermentation


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Coodgee said:


> Regarding re- using yeast: i time my brews so that i am pitching yeast for a new brew at the same time i am kegging the previous brew. When the new brew is at pitching temp i boil a stainless steel camp mug for 15 minutes. Then i keg the older beer and scoop most of the yeast cake into the new beer. Then hit it with oxygen for a couple of minutes and seal her up. Pretty easy. Otherwise you can collect the yeast in a sterilized container, store in fridge and pitch when ready. Saves money and gives fast clean fermentation



Thanks man.

I'm wondering, my brews usually have some hop matter in the cake aswell, is this a no-no?


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## S.E (14/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> I'm wondering, my brews usually have some hop matter in the cake aswell, is this a no-no?


A little hop matter is fine.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

Question: Can't you simply use boiling water to sanitize? Surely this will kill any bacteria hiding in equipment, thus preventing contamination. Right?

I'm just doing some reading about a few people saying you should throw away old plastic brewing gear vs those who say just clean it well. Sone say 'biofilm' hides bacteria which cleaners can't penetrate. Surely boiling water will just kill them underneath


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## Coodgee (14/2/18)

Yes boiling will sterilize not just sanitize but i only boil glass and steel and silicon. Not plastic.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/2/18)

I think just a short contact time of boiling water should be ok. After all, no-chill guys do it all the time into the same rated plastics


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## Mr B (15/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> You stuck the beers or fermenters on the bricks? Sorry man I'm not sure wich one you mean. If it's the beer you should stick one in the fridge and try. Though it would be off by now anyhow. But still, always good to learn first hand



Both....fermenters with beer in, whollus bollus

The beer is covered in mould, and aside from the mould issues they will be completely oxidised and lightstruck

Curious and a little interested, but...

I’ll do something with them, one day


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## TheWiggman (15/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Luckily I did scrub this one with the percarbobate. I wanted to be thoroug with it because it's so delicate. 3 days in and it smells and tastes good. Fingers crossed..
> 
> Funny thing is, I've been brewing for 20 years now! So not a beginner by any stretch. AG only 18 months or so though



Forgive me for having to do a double take earlier as I thought the post about cleaning was a troll post. If you want to maximise chances or making good beer you have to be a cleaner first, brewer second. Most of my time spent making beer is on cleaning and sanitising equipment.

Everyone has their own preferences and habits but the important thing is that anything exposed to the chilled wort or beer must be CLEAN. Remove all indications of foreign matter and sanitise everything that touches or is exposed to the beer (like a lid or airlock). Anything that's foreign can house something that can cause an infection so it's important to get rid of it. Note though that there _will always_ be some unwanted living organism inside the vessel - it's floating in the air after all - so it's not possible to eliminate the risk completely, but the important thing is to minimise it as much as possible and let the yeast completely outgun anything that wants to compete with it.

My cleaning regime is -

Rinse keg/fermenter thoroughly

Boil a jug of water
Add cap full of sodium percarbonate and freshly boiled water to vessel, shake to buggery
Allow to soak for 30 mins, wipe off any remaining scum with a chux cloth

Empty vessel and rinse/clean 

Add jug of boiled water to vessel, shake again
After you're done ensure it's thoroughly dry. Later, before adding beer, sanitise with a product like iodopher or StarSan. Anything that that is used to prepare the beer like stirring spoons, measuring cups, hydrometers etc. should be given a quick douse in sanitiser and left for 30 seconds to 2 mins before use. 

And in response to the tread title no, I have never infected a beer and enjoyed the result (intentionally and otherwise).


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## Coodgee (15/2/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I think just a short contact time of boiling water should be ok. After all, no-chill guys do it all the time into the same rated plastics


 

As i understand you need to boil things for 15 minutes to sterilize. Could be wrong


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## Doctormcbrewdle (15/2/18)

Cheers guys. I've just become lazy after a good run of luck. I think if you get away with something for a while you tend to become blase'. I'll definitely be cleaning now. Just bought me some new cleaners too! So now I have Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Percarbonate, Sodium metabisulfite and bleach. Good to rotate them so I don't breed a superbug (do those things exist in home brew?)

Off the topic question here: I've just heard someone mention that Star San is a yeast nutrient if left in fermenters as no rinse. True, or?


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## Matplat (15/2/18)

Coodgee said:


> I'd give a keg of beer to anyone who could pick the new one...



I'm coming to your place next weekend to put this to the test


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## Doctormcbrewdle (16/2/18)

Just bought some bleach and put a half cup in a 30l esky to soak bottles which now seems too much. I'm hoping they'll rinse out ok and not leave any residue, your hands get so slippery after touching the water and it's really hard to get off!


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## Mardoo (16/2/18)

We did a Wee Heavy at one of the VIC swaps. 100L went into a whisky barrel that turned out to be...suspicious. Everyone else threw out their allotment, but I kept mine in the keg for a couple years to see what would happen.

Well, it's now the Wee Jobby, a 12% Flanders Red-like ass kicker of a beer, malty as **** with a balancing sour and some brett character.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (16/2/18)

FWIW, It takes 1 minute to kill all pathogens in water over 70 degrees. Though a 1 minute rolling boil is recommended (just in case I guess)


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## Doctormcbrewdle (16/2/18)

Just remembered too that the bad batch had a mishap at pitching. Not sure if this could possibly have anything to do with it but I sat the pack of dried yeast on top of the boiled water glass I used to rehydrate it. 

It sat for 10 minutes or so before I realized it's too hot! So decided to pitch half tgat pack and a whole new pack too. Possible that the scaulded yeast was stressed and threw a bunch of off flavors? Maybe

I figured the more the merrier but I'm going to throw that half sachet now just in case


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## Doctormcbrewdle (22/2/18)

Coodgee said:


> Why do you think your lager will take weeks? I've been turning around lagers 2 weeks from grain to brain:
> 
> I've been re-pitching a big yeast cake into the next brew - airlock activity and fully formed krausen the next morning after a ~6pm pitch @ ~10 degrees.
> After 3 or 4 days the krausen starts to drop and I ramp up to 17 degrees for 3-5 days.
> ...



Just had to update

I put a lager in FV 10/2, lagered at 13 degrees for 3 days, slowly ramping up to 19 for the following 3 days. I had a mate's 40th to attend that night so wanted to give him a few brews because he's always interested in my brewing, so I crashed it knowing I'd just made fg at 1.008 for exactly 24hrs at 0.5 degrees.

I made up "Tiber's premium pils 1st place 2013 recipe which is a basic Weyerman pils malt, clean yeast and lots of Hallertau Mittelfrueh hop additions fwiw. The recipe is easily found online though he uses Dabish lager yeast.

Bottling was nice and clear and I was pretty confident everything was in track by taste and aroma at this early point.

Fast forward just 6 days conditioning in hot weather (opposite of lagering, laughs) yesterday day 5 was a bit green still but today it's just edged iver the hill and is a showstopper! An incredible lager by anyone's books. I'd be happy to pasteurise these bad boys and lager now because I know from experience my beer dies between the 4th and 5th week in heat so have to be careful

So mate, spot on with the fast lager method. I'd have no problem throwing this into a comp and would be confident it has every chance of competing with traditional slow lagers. Probably the best beer I've made in 20 odd years brewing. Thanks for chiming in, Cheers!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (5/4/18)

I have a new pale just 3 days young but conditioning in the current heat which is now showing signs in taste, aroma and slick mouthfeel of diacetly or something similar that reminds me of the original thread here..

This time it wasn't present at bottling so really hoping it's just diacetly from early secondary.. God I hope so. I know it's far to early to even make any assumption but it scared me because I've never tasted this in any other beer bar that really bad one. I don't even know for sure if it is diacetly but the slickness leads me to believe it is

Funny thing is I did a hefe in the same fermenter 4 weeks prior but scrubbed it with percarbonate afterward, sat a pot of boiling water in it for half an hour and shook shed out of it, then star sanned and let sit for an hour so really couldn't be that yeast, could it..? I did note that fermentation took off quicker than usual though.. less than 1 day rather than 2 days using M44

Time will tell


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## t2000kw (8/4/18)

In the summertime, even with the best sanitation practices, it's possible to pick up an infection from the air while the wort is cooling. I am a sanitation fanatic, and I use an iodophor treatment for my fermenter right before I put the wort into it after chilling it down to just above room temperature. One summer, I picked up a lactobacillus infection in an American lager. I could find nothing wrong with my sanitation and cleaning practices, so I did some research and found that old timers often did not brew in the summer time because their beer would often pick up an infection. I made the same beer later in the year without any problems.

You can buy a product called Lysozyme here in the United States at least that will prevent lactobacillus from getting a hold in your beer. I may get some this year to use for my summer time brewing.

Lactobacillus is probably not what happened to you though because it certainly did not leave a flavor of mushroom in my beer. That is, unless your mushroom flavor is sort of sour.

I've only had infections twice in beers in nearly 40 years of brewing, but I believe both were lactobacillus infections. Both were also in the summertime.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (8/4/18)

Just having another at just 1 week in the bottle and it's still there but I'm thinking it may actually be the galaxy hops with Maris Otter and crystal that just doesn't sit right. It's an extreme combination of malt and hops

The last tipper I started this thread with was all galaxy while this one has more Amarillo than galaxy. While I can barely detect amarillo I still get alot if galaxy and it's horrid at this point. Hope it ages out ok.. galaxy is really a hop used either very sparingly or with a very light malt bill to be star of the show

So I think that's what it is anyway. Will update as time rolls on


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## t2000kw (8/4/18)

Hope it's not an infection and that the flavor mellows with time.

I made a pumpkin beer a few years ago and it's never going to mellow. I consider it a failed experiment. A friend liked it enough to take some off my hands but the rest is going down the drain as soon as I need to use the keg. And the keg will probably need to be taken apart and the o-rings soaked or replaced, too.

If it turns out it is an infection, good cleaning and sanitation of everything on the cold side (post-boil) that touches the wort usually prevents it from happening again. That and very quickly cooling the wort to pitching temperature so that exposure to air is minimized. I probably should do my cooling inside the house once flameout has occurred.

There is actually a test kit I saw online somewhere to test whether your beer is infected or not. This is the product (just looked and found it) but the supplier is in the US:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/fastorange-ready-tubes-2-5ml-swabs.html

But other than maybe telling you that's what happened, it doesn't do anything to fix things for you. I think the test kit is almost pointless unless you're trying to troubleshoot where an infection came from (like the spigot on a bottling bucket, bottle filler, etc.) or just want to confirm a beer is infected.

If it still looks fine to the eyes in a few months with no ropy looking bacteria slime in the beer, you probably are right that you just have a bad combination of ingredients. I had one batch that I ordered what I thought were the same ingredients that was in a kit from a homebrewing supplier, but it turned out that in their kits they must have used a different brand of dried malt extract. It was dark extract, same as called for in the recipe, but it did not turn out anywhere near the same taste as the kit. No infection was present, just one of those things. They don't label their recipe nor their dried extract as to which brand it was. I thought I was saving a few dollars by making up my own kit but it turned out to be a beer that wasn't all that great. Drinkable, but not refreshing. More for medicinal purposes, I guess, after a bad day at work.  The place makes some great extract with grains kits, though. I've moved on to all grain and because of time and storage considerations am going back to extract with grains again. I hope to brew again this year after a break of a few years since my last brew, probably this spring (your autumn).


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## Doctormcbrewdle (12/4/18)

Tasting @ 11 days in bottle, wacky taste mellowing but still there. It's the galaxy. Just so damn strong that stuff and I'm not a real fan to begin with so just not my cup of tea. So much so it tastes like an almost ruined batch (laughs)

It's a pitty I still have almost half a kg left over.. might have to give it away to someone who does like it


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## Lobby Lobster (14/4/18)

To answer the question, Yes.
I’m drinking an extract brew, a kolsch with WLP029 that I brewed three times previously. 
This time I was convinced that it was infected- didn’t taste right on bottling day or over the first month.
I was close to tipping it to free up some bottles. However after 2 months it’s as good as I remember it. Kind of weird and certainly unexpected. But now it’s so good I will do it again.
I have had a couple of infected beers before and the key sign was gushing when you pop the lid. The old “it’s a boy” is not a good sign.
When I was a young brewer and hadn’t been to Belgium I thought lots of things were wrong because they didn’t taste like the commercial beers I was used to. In Bruges I realized, wow that tastes like that ale I did that time- I tipped it because it didn’t taste like Cascade.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/4/18)

Update. Gave one to a mate I brew alot of pales for. He loves it. Go figure.. so just being hard on myself and don't like the hop source. It did have quite alot of diacetly to begin with though abd is getting better


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## Doctormcbrewdle (16/4/18)

Update. It's bloody amazing now! Just hit 2 weeks in the bottle. Time is all it's needed. I'm finding that the M44 yeast seems to produce alot of what seems to be diacetly and is taking at least two weeks to clean up. I can even appreciate the Galaxy now! And Amarillo has popped too. Like a flower in spring after the cold winter has passed

Cheers all!


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