# Filtering - The Real Cost?



## jbowers (22/11/11)

Ok, so I have just bought a filter. My reasoning is primarily because once my ready-to go hoppy and wheat beers are done, I just want to get them in me. Impatient, yes.

But it got me thinking. Presuming this thing actually works, am I perhaps saving myself some money? I regularly hear the same thing: after 2 pints, kegged beer is generally clear enough and tasting great. I agree based on my own experience. However, I find it totally ridiculous that anyone could enjoy those first two cloudy, trubby, yeasty pints. As far as i'm concerned it is certainly NOT a visual thing. Clear, or reasonably clear beer, just tastes better. I can't stand the taste of trub. I find great beers can quickly become terrible if you allow that stuff in to the glass (kooinda pale?).

I've rambled a little bit, sure, but I think I have a point somewhere in there. Aside from the perks in terms of speed in achieving a bright beer, has anyone found they are actually ending up with MORE drinkable beer as a result of filtering?


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## adniels3n (22/11/11)

I do not filter. I know that my keg is about to run out when I pour my 1st clear beer.

Edit: Do you mean "MORE drinkable", or "A MORE drinkable beer"? (yes, that makes sense in my head).


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

I mean a larger quantity of beer that is enjoyable to drink.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

I filter but after a tear in my filter cartridge have just kegged my last two straight from the fermenter after cold conditioning. Luckily they were both Belgiuns where yeast isn't the end of the world.

Anyway, I mostly don't have any issues drinking trub/yeast in any style of beer. Doesn't bother me. I find with filters you lose beer to the filtering process for sure so I'd say overall there's more waste with a filter.


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I filter but after a tear in my filter cartridge have just kegged my last two straight from the fermenter after cold conditioning. Luckily they were both Belgiuns where yeast isn't the end of the world.
> 
> Anyway, I mostly don't have any issues drinking trub/yeast in any style of beer. Doesn't bother me. I find with filters you lose beer to the filtering process for sure so I'd say overall there's more waste with a filter.



Maybe your cold conditioning process is better than mine, but I end up with a situation where the first few glasses of beer range from mildy enjoyable to reasonably bad. After that it's all awesome beer till the keg blows. Surely a filter wont hold more than a pints worth of wastage?

Also, does no one else out there hate yeasty/trubby beer? (I like belgian and german yeast too, and don't object to having that in my beer. It's just american and british yeast + hop debris that I find tastes bad).


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## sim (23/11/11)

Mate i celebrate an unfiltered beer. not because it looks cloudy like coopers, but because its real live beer. I can drink un-filtered beer that is mighty clear, just not crystal sparkling, till the cows come home and feel great the next day. Yeast is good for you!

If its murky and full of trub then let it condition (cold if you can) for longer before you rack to keg.


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

Only problem is that I cold condition in a chest freezer. I've cc'd beers for a couple of weeks in there and through lifting it out of there to where I bottle, it's got enough yeast to make the first couple of pints dirty as hell.

I don't mind a cloudy beer either. Just had a glass of my IPA, very cloudy but the yeast has dropped enough that it is only a minor part of the flavour.


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## sim (23/11/11)

jbowers said:


> Surely a filter wont hold more than a pints worth of wastage?



Give or take id say definatley yes. Plus youve got set-up, cleaning and sanitation before and after (plus an extra keg possibly). 

A filter certainly has its pros though, you'd be aware of.


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

sim said:


> Give or take id say definatley yes. Plus youve got set-up, cleaning and sanitation before and after (plus an extra keg possibly).
> 
> A filter certainly has its pros though, you'd be aware of.



I'll be gravity filtering. Oh well, will see how it goes. Not a massive outlay if it turns out to be a waste of time.


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## Nick JD (23/11/11)

I have a filter but I only use it to impress people. 

Bright beer is like a hot chick - with the lights out and your mates don't know ... she might as well be a fatty boom bah.


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> I have a filter but I only use it to impress people.
> 
> Bright beer is like a hot chick - with the lights out and your mates don't know ... she might as well be a fatty boom bah.



You honestly can't taste the difference? I thought hopwired IPA was pretty average if you let the yeast get in to the glass. Great beer otherwise...


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## sim (23/11/11)

Shake up a little creature pale and see if you can taste the difference.

It can have a lot to do with just how much crap is in there, _alot_ of yeast certainly can change how a beer drinks, though a minute amount will just put a haze through it. I mainly see a filter as fixing a cosmetic issue, though i do have one, and i do occasionally whip it out for aethetics, to fix my blunders, or for time reasons.


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## jakub76 (23/11/11)

OK I'm not going to pretend I've never plugged Fattie Boom Bah but generally I'd rather not be.

I have now bent all of my keg dip tubes to draw from about 3-5cm above the keg floor. I don't like cloudy beer unless it's Wit or Weizen and even then I don't want half a glass of yeast. With any American style, hop-driven ale I find the hop bitterness clings to that yeast so when it's still cloudy it's much more harsh and bitter than when it's finally cleared and balanced somewhere near your recipe's goal.

I'm probably too lazy to filter so I just bend my dip tube and suffer the lost litre...works for me.


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

sim said:


> Shake up a little creature pale and see if you can taste the difference.
> 
> It can have a lot to do with just how much crap is in there, _alot_ of yeast certainly can change how a beer drinks, though a minute amount will just put a haze through it. I mainly see a filter as fixing a cosmetic issue, though i do have one, and i do occasionally whip it out for aethetics, to fix my blunders, or for time reasons.



I have, and I reckon you can. Not a fair comparison either as little creatures is filtered and then has a lager strain added at bottling. Therefore no hop compounds tied in with the yeast. Just clean, fresh lager yeast so it contributes very little to the flavour. 

Jakub, good move. I totally agree. The only styles I really object to yeast in is in american hoppy beers. I brew lots of those...


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## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Two weeks of cold conditioning and gelatine and I can get any yeast to **** right off to the bottom. 

If you want to bottle/keg from primary you HAVE to filter for clear beer. For BRIGHT you have to also get rid of the polyphenols unless you are serving at 10C.

I only filter the beers I want people who are commercial drinkers to appreciate. Other beers I leave "cloudy", which is not BRIGHT. Certainly not yeasty. Comparing an unfiltered beer with a secondary fermented beer shaken up is not the same thing.


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## sim (23/11/11)

jbowers said:


> The only styles I really object to yeast in is in american hoppy beers. I brew lots of those...



Sounds like you should get stuck into filtering then mate.


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## mje1980 (23/11/11)

I keg from primary, and after a week most are clear. My koelsh is quite clear.


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## milob40 (23/11/11)

i filter, i love it, i do it to speed up conditioning, fv to glass in 2 weeks if needed but i usually leave carbed for a week, have compared both methods with longer conditioning and filtering wins. keg to keg filtering is faster and easier and just soak filter in nappy san o/nite and it comes out clean as. you lose about half a glass of beer when filtering so it is not an issue for me. as for actual cost the filter is good for 30+ brews if looked after and costs $18 from my beer shop.
co2 is the biggest expense but worth every penny.


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## pk.sax (23/11/11)

Filtered beer tastes flavorless to me. That's krystall weizen and filtered kellerbier - commercial examples that I tasted and thought they'd lost all character. All the time I bottled, I never got any trub in my bottles, just beer and sugar. They all drop very clear. Not crystal clear but enough to read through the bottle if the bottles were clear.

I've kegged one beer so far and that was meant to be cloudy - galaxy. Honestly, the cloudiness is not unpleasant in it. I'm reasonably sure I didn't get much if any trub in the keg. I didn't even crash chill. Wlp001 as much as it drops out on it's own. I suppose if one is not greedy and leaves half a centimeter of murky beer at the bottom of the fermenter it makes a difference....


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## [email protected] (23/11/11)

You can keg very clear beer from primary, just takes some time, sometimes gelatine and polyclar and some cold conditioning.
Siphon from the top and you have clear beer in your keg, not hard at all.


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## Dave70 (23/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> Two weeks of cold conditioning and gelatine and I can get any yeast to **** right off to the bottom.
> 
> If you want to bottle/keg from primary you HAVE to filter for clear beer. For BRIGHT you have to also get rid of the polyphenols unless you are serving at 10C.



I'll have my two bob each way on these statements (don't ya love those old timey sayings)

Cold conditioning, even on its own works wonders to clear brews.


As far a having to filter for clear beer, here's a Bo pills I made around March. 
Three weeks in the primary, a week at 1 deg in the fridge then bottled.
Not exactly cloudy is it.







If I were a competitive brewer, I could see the point. Other than that, filtering just seems like another opportunity to **** a batch of beer up and simply not worth the hassle.


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## Bribie G (23/11/11)

Recycled photos: but just showing what my beers look like when I keep two or three brews ahead and have the next batches waiting in CC, then I'm kegging clear beer into the keg and by the time it's gassed it normally pours clear from the first glass.








Jeez even my Midnight Train 40's are dressed to impress

:icon_chickcheers:


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## Florian (23/11/11)

Dave70 said:


> Not exactly cloudy is it.



But not exactly clear, either. Not that it matters, just saying.

I agree that you can get pretty clear beer without filtering, even clearer than the above picture with the help of polyclar.
When I used to bottle my beers were always clear, because my bottles had enough time to settle before I opened them.

But now that I keg I like to taste my beer sooner, and if only to find out that it still needs more conditioning time. 
For me it the easiest to determine that when the beer already presents like it eventually should anyway.

I also honestly think that I get more beer out of batch when filtering. 
- I don't need to chuck out the first yeasty glasses
- there is no wastage in the filter whatsoever if you turn it upside down, apart from what's soaked into the material which is not even worth mentioning
- if I was greedy I could even run the trub through the filter and get the last rops out of it.

Once you have your filter routine down pat it hardly takes more time to be honest, 10 minutes max incl cleaning and setup and obviously the time it takes to filter. I gravity filter from primary so there is no extra keg to clean, either.


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## wynnum1 (23/11/11)

No need to throw out first yeasty glasses just bottle and put in fridge and will settle out again .


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

Florian, don't you worry about the bubbles that come at the end of filtering when you have it upside down? I was thinking of making a dip tube inside my filter for the beer in part to try and counteract it.



milob40 said:


> i filter, i love it, i do it to speed up conditioning, fv to glass in 2 weeks if needed but i usually leave carbed for a week, have compared both methods with longer conditioning and filtering wins. keg to keg filtering is faster and easier and just soak filter in nappy san o/nite and it comes out clean as. you lose about half a glass of beer when filtering so it is not an issue for me. as for actual cost the filter is good for 30+ brews if looked after and costs $18 from my beer shop.
> co2 is the biggest expense but worth every penny.



Keg to keg filtering is NOT easier than gravity filtering.


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## kymba (23/11/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Florian, don't you worry about the bubbles that come at the end of filtering when you have it upside down?


if you purge the whole filter system with c02 then that is all that the bubbles are going to be...no worse than the massive foamy bubbleness from force carbing

but yeah, charge the filter then turn upside down - no waste!


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## Florian (23/11/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Florian, don't you worry about the bubbles that come at the end of filtering when you have it upside down?



No, I don't. Firstly because I hardly get any bubbles when I make sure that the fermenter tap outlet is always covered with beer by tilting the fermenter towrds the end.
And secondly I'm assuming that it is mostly Co2 anyway that's covering my beer after fermentation. 

Also, I partly purge my keg with Co2 before filtering when pushing Starsan trough the output and all lines and the filter itself, and I purge the head space after filtering.

Sounds like a lot of mucking around, but it is seriously not once you have your routine down pat.

EDIT: Kymba got it right


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## argon (23/11/11)

I've been concerned about the bubbling also, not enough to give up the filter mind you... love it!

But i would guess that it _is _in fact air being pulled in... not just Co2. I think when you empty your filter cartridge air is definitely being bubbled through the last remnants.

One way i've done it in the past is before the housing is empty i connect the beer in line to some co2 to push the last bit through.

Also as Florian has said if you tip the fermentor so you're 'filtering' trub before stopping you should be ok. 

...and yes i wholeheartedly agree, keg to keg filtering is more difficult than gravity. Done it a couple of times and each time it's been a major pain the arse.


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## Batz (23/11/11)

Filtering takes more time uses more C02, and I do it for every brew.

The previous photos showing clear unfiltered beer look good but not great, filtered beer is beautifully bright. I don't believe filtering strips any flavour from your brews either and I have done a side by side comparison.
It's all about presentation and if your happy with your brews as they are well and good, I like my beers to look and taste as good as I can possibly make them.

Like everything home brew it just a matter of choice.


Batz


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

Yeah I mean the last part of the filtering, where there is no more beer in the fermenter but the filter still contains a lot of beer. If you are using the filter correctly the entire filter should be full of beer when the fermenter runs out of beer, and then when the beer in the filter leaves the filter oxygen or whatever gas is in the fermenter will bubble through the filter until all of the beer is drained out.

You can just not bother collecting this beer but if so it would represent about a pint of waste (which is pertinent to this thread).

Or you can collect it all and worry that you've introduced some oxygenation of a part of your beer (I don't personally know if this is significantly an issue).

I was thinking if the beer-in part of the filter had a dip tube made out of beer/gas line, when it's in the upright position the beer would fill from the bottom of the filter upwards, which is preferable to letting it splash down from the top. Then when the filter is upside down and has air going into the beer-in part, the air should go up the dip tube and fill the top of the filter resulting in no bubbling.

I've been tempted to force the last part with co2 as well but I don't really have a co2 setup handy when filtering, plus that'd be a bit of extra work again in the context of this thread where we are being honest about filtering (not sales people selling our preferences to others).


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

argon said:


> ...and yes i wholeheartedly agree, keg to keg filtering is more difficult than gravity. Done it a couple of times and each time it's been a major pain the arse.



Even needing a surplus keg and the cleaning of the extra keg alone makes it significantly less easy.

If you add the time it takes to clean the extra keg into the equation gravity filtering is actually a lot quicker too.


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## Batz (23/11/11)

How many brewers pump straight from the fermenter through the filter? and what pump are you using?


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## argon (23/11/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Yeah I mean the last part of the filtering, where there is no more beer in the fermenter but the filter still contains a lot of beer. If you are using the filter correctly the entire filter should be full of beer when the fermenter runs out of beer, and then when the beer in the filter leaves the filter oxygen or whatever gas is in the fermenter will bubble through the filter until all of the beer is drained out.
> 
> You can just not bother collecting this beer but if so it would represent about a pint of waste (which is pertinent to this thread).
> 
> Or you can collect it all and worry that you've introduced some oxygenation of a part of your beer (I don't personally know if this is significantly an issue).


I think that's the only drawback to the filter in my mind... just not sure what the effects are of this bubbling that people experience. The brain says oxidation, but experience has told me that there's no ill effects. 



Mark^Bastard said:


> I was thinking if the beer-in part of the filter had a dip tube made out of beer/gas line, when it's in the upright position the beer would fill from the bottom of the filter upwards, which is preferable to letting it splash down from the top. Then when the filter is upside down and has air going into the beer-in part, the air should go up the dip tube and fill the top of the filter resulting in no bubbling.


When i begin filtering i keep it in the upright position with the purge valve depressed to let the purged Co2 out. Then once full and purged i invert to allow the beer to flow and allowing any Co2 that comes out of solution to gather at the top of the housing. Maybe next time i try filtering (this weekend probably)i'll try holding the housing horizontally with the beer in at the top and the beer out at the bottom. That way when the air starts coming it will be above the beer going out??? dunno... worth a try maybe.



Mark^Bastard said:


> I've been tempted to force the last part with co2 as well but I don't really have a co2 setup handy when filtering, plus that'd be a bit of extra work again in the context of this thread where we are being honest about filtering (not sales people selling our preferences to others).


True that... it's a bit of a pain. Like i said done it before, but won't do it again.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

Batz said:


> How many brewers pump straight from the fermenter through the filter? and what pump are you using?



When I filter and when I don't filter I transfer from fermenter to keg using gravity and 5mm ID beer line.

The difference in time between filtering this way and not filtering isn't the end of the world. It takes maybe 20-25 minutes to gravity filter. It's one of those things where I walk away and just check it every now and then.

I wouldn't personally bother with a pump unless you can't use gravity due to not being able to lift the fermenter higher than the keg or whatever. I suppose in that case you'd maybe be using a conical that could be hooked up to co2.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

Argon that sideways idea makes sense. Only issue is maybe there'd still be some wastage? The gap between the filter membrane and the side of the housing. We are not talking about a massive lost of beer but the thread is specifically about wastage so worth bringing up.


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## Florian (23/11/11)

argon said:


> When i begin filtering i keep it in the upright position with the purge valve depressed to let the purged Co2 out. Then once full and purged i invert to allow the beer to flow and allowing any Co2 that comes out of solution to gather at the top of the housing. Maybe next time i try filtering (this weekend probably)i'll try holding the housing horizontally with the beer in at the top and the beer out at the bottom. That way when the air starts coming it will be above the beer going out??? dunno... worth a try maybe.



Yep, worth a try. I think it will work until the filter is about half empty, as the outlet is actually in the middle of the cartridge, although the actual outlet connector is on the bottom (when you hold the cartridge sideways). If you know what I mean... You can then maybe turn it upwards again.

In all honesty, i have never really worried about it. Even if there is a bit of air getting sucked in, it will still mostly be mixed with Co2 from fermentation, so it will be a tiny bit of oxygen bubbling through a tiny bit of beer (in the filter). Not a real concern for me, and as you say, can't taste it that's for sure. 

It's not as if you would introduce oxygen to your keg and close it in, that might possibly be a concern.


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## Wimmig (23/11/11)

I siphone from a better bottle, top down and then let sit when not CC for at least 14 days. For the most part, the beers are entirely clear. Clean consistant process will give these sorts of results...without filtration.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

Florian said:


> Yep, worth a try. I think it will work until the filter is about half empty, as the outlet is actually in the middle of the cartridge, although the actual outlet connector is on the bottom (when you hold the cartridge sideways). If you know what I mean... You can then maybe turn it upwards again.
> 
> In all honesty, i have never really worried about it. Even if there is a bit of air getting sucked in, it will still mostly be mixed with Co2 from fermentation, so it will be a tiny bit of oxygen bubbling through a tiny bit of beer (in the filter). Not a real concern for me, and as you say, can't taste it that's for sure.
> 
> It's not as if you would introduce oxygen to your keg and close it in, that might possibly be a concern.



Yeah I'm pretty sure I've had a filtered keg kept for 6 months or so with no ill effects.


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## Dave70 (23/11/11)

Florian said:


> But not exactly clear, either. Not that it matters, just saying.



I guess if it having the turbidity levels of distilled water equates to enjoyment of the beer for some folk, fair enough. Since I've never split a batch and filtered half, I cant say personally if it improves the finished product or strips flavors. Obviously depends on the style. I actually doubt my jaded palate could tell the difference, though I cant say I'm much of a fan any of the megaswill's that boast to be 'cold or triple filtered', they certainly seem to be missing something - though they _do _ seem to retain that lovely POR bitterness.. 

In any case, if a guest rejected my pils on the ground's of it not being 'exactly clear', well - I might politely ask them to get the hell off my property.
Just saying.


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## Tim F (23/11/11)

I get clear (well clear enough for me)beer from primary too. I lower it to cc temp gradually then leave at 0 for 3+ days. Then i pump it out to the keg without moving the fermenter and using a racking cane with the attachment that holds it off the bottom 1cm or so. Works well enough that I haven't needed to think about filtering (yet)


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## jbowers (23/11/11)

Just to clarify (ha!), my main reason for going down the filtering path is to have great tasting beer more quickly. I have no room for multiple vessels to be cold conditioning at once etc. I think the beers posted that are not filtered are more than clear enough for my taste.

Aesthetically, I don't really care - as long as I cant taste the yeast or trub, it makes no difference to me. There is something kind of cool about a big ballsy IPA that is similar to carlton draught in appearance though...

I am certain that with my process as it is, based on reading what other people have said, I will end up with more pints of highly enjoyable beer than I would without filtering. It suits me to be able to brew a few batches reasonably quickly when time permits, as I may not have time to brew for a while after that.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

When I don't filter I get 'clear beer' into the keg. However when the keg runs out, the bottom is covered in murky yeasty crap. When I filter this doesn't happen. So there obviously is a significant amount of crap that gets into a keg even when you think it doesn't. Unless you gelatine or whatever I guess.

I personally don't mind murkiness, or the flavour of yeast or even trub. Not enough to tip the beer out anyway. The main reason I filter is I just like the idea of all of the beer in the keg being the same until it's empty. And I can move the kegs without them clouding up again and all that. It just seems neater to be able to leave that crap upstream of the keg.

Makes cleaning the kegs a lot easier too...


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## Bribie G (23/11/11)

If it's possible to get clearer beer than the examples I posted then maybe I need my eyes checked. Maybe there's another one or two percent to be gained but I can't see myself paying a hundred dollars for the privilege, I can get a few slabs of Oettinger for that, if I want to savour totally crystal beer. Also as pointed out, filtered beer can still suffer from chill haze, you only have to visit a few brew pubs who serve at -1 to see that every day.


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## argon (23/11/11)

TBs clear beer polyclar and 1 micron filter


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## Florian (23/11/11)

Dave70 said:


> I guess if it having the turbidity levels of distilled water equates to enjoyment of the beer for some folk, fair enough. Since I've never split a batch and filtered half, I cant say personally if it improves the finished product or strips flavors. Obviously depends on the style. I actually doubt my jaded palate could tell the difference, though I cant say I'm much of a fan any of the megaswill's that boast to be 'cold or triple filtered', they certainly seem to be missing something - though they _do _ seem to retain that lovely POR bitterness..
> 
> In any case, if a guest rejected my pils on the ground's of it not being 'exactly clear', well - I might politely ask them to get the hell off my property.
> Just saying.



Dave, as I said, it doesn't matter if it doesn't worry you.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clear, but what I actually meant was that your beer looks pretty yeast free to me, similar to what you would get with a filter. 
The 'not exactly clear' part refers to what looks like chill haze to me, that's why I mentioned polyclar. You won't be able to remove chill haze with filtering only. 

As mentioned, I used to get pretty clear beer when I used to bottle, using gelatin, polyclar and time only. 
I've also seen plenty of Bribie's beers and they look pretty alright to me. 

But clear beer without filtering takes time, filtering speeds up the process and maybe adds that little bit of extra sparkle. 
And, same as the OP, I just don't like the taste of yeast in *my* beers, so I'm very happy that there is a way to filter it out to for me undetectable levels.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

Doesn't look carbed or chilled though argon?


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## argon (23/11/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Doesn't look carbed or chilled though argon?


probably correct... but is filtered


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## Dave70 (23/11/11)

Florian said:


> Dave, as I said, it doesn't matter if it doesn't worry you.
> 
> Maybe I should have been a bit more clear, but what I actually meant was that your beer looks pretty yeast free to me, similar to what you would get with a filter.
> The 'not exactly clear' part refers to what looks like chill haze to me, that's why I mentioned polyclar. You won't be able to remove chill haze with filtering only.
> ...




Mate, if like the OP, cold conditioning was not an option, you bet I'd be filtering. 
I _hate _ yeasty tasting beers - OK, some wheat's aside - but I shit you not when I say I'd rather a VB than Cooper's (sparkling or pale) ale.


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## Dave70 (23/11/11)

argon said:


> TBs clear beer polyclar and 1 micron filter



Filtered, really?
Looks like it's got tree roots floating in it.


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## Batz (23/11/11)

> If it's possible to get clearer beer than the examples I posted then maybe I need my eyes checked. Maybe there's another one or two percent to be gained but I can't see myself paying a hundred dollars for the privilege, I can get a few slabs of Oettinger for that, if I want to savour totally crystal beer. Also as pointed out, filtered beer can still suffer from chill haze, you only have to visit a few brew pubs who serve at -1 to see that every day



There you go !





argon said:


> TBs clear beer polyclar and 1 micron filter


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

I reckon that's a really clear beer but it's not fair comparing it to a beer that's cold and carbonated.


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## Liam_snorkel (23/11/11)

looks like a glass of goon.


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## alcoadam (23/11/11)

I generally pop my beers into a stubbie cooler, so clarity is terrible!


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## sav (23/11/11)

milob40 said:


> i filter, i love it, i do it to speed up conditioning, fv to glass in 2 weeks if needed but i usually leave carbed for a week, have compared both methods with longer conditioning and filtering wins. keg to keg filtering is faster and easier and just soak filter in nappy san o/nite and it comes out clean as. you lose about half a glass of beer when filtering so it is not an issue for me. as for actual cost the filter is good for 30+ brews if looked after and costs $18 from my beer shop.
> co2 is the biggest expense but worth every penny.


I
I totally agree with this comment.i hav been using the same filter for three years and it's starting to slow I might buy a new one soon not bad run.I would love too know how many lts it's done.


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## alcoadam (23/11/11)

I'm quite happy with the clarity of my beer that spends two weeks racked with some finings. I usually end up with next to nothing in the bottom of the kegs when finished...

It would be interesting to do a comparison with the same brew but for me at the moment I'm not too keen on any extra work. 

I love a good quality beer and appreciate the work that goes into some, but I usually prefer to sit back and enjoy the flavour and focus more on the dirty magazine in front of me than the clarity of the drink that is bluring my vision anyhow. :icon_drunk:


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## drsmurto (23/11/11)

Batz said:


> Filtering takes more time uses more C02, and I do it for every brew.
> 
> The previous photos showing clear unfiltered beer look good but not great, filtered beer is beautifully bright. I don't believe filtering strips any flavour from your brews either and I have done a side by side comparison.
> It's all about presentation and if your happy with your brews as they are well and good, I like my beers to look and taste as good as I can possibly make them.
> ...



Agree with Batz. Other than Argons photo the other beers are clear, not bright.

There is a difference, and yes bribie, it's only slight but it is real. Very few beers at the nationals that i judged were bright, most were clear. I give full marks for appearance for a clear beer. Hazy (chill or yeast) beer loses points fast.

I sold my filter setup recently as i spend more time conditioning my beer and am happy with the clarity i get. Clear but not bright. I only ever used it for lagers and since i brew them so infrequently i hardly used it.

Yeast/polyphenols/proteins etc have a flavour and textural qualities so i use a range of finings agents to remove as much of these as i can.


----------



## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I reckon that's a really clear beer but it's not fair comparing it to a beer that's cold and carbonated.



Maybe they drink it warm and flat? And from a wine glass. 

Actually, maybe that's a chardonay and their beer looks like swampwater...


----------



## Bribie G (23/11/11)

Yes, I popped out for a three of Henninger to compare it with my Dort and finally I do admit that _clear _is a pathetic shadow of _bright _ and perhaps I should consider making the unmistakeable quantum leap to filtering to avoid drinking this turbid shyte :icon_cheers:


----------



## pk.sax (23/11/11)

If I wanted to drink something as clear as water, I'd be drinking water....


----------



## manticle (23/11/11)

If I wanted to read another debate between the merits of cold conditioning vs filtering, I'd shoot myself in the face.

Woops...... wha.....????


----------



## Bribie G (23/11/11)

I bet you did that all the time when you were a teenager B)


Hey I bet this is going to be my best recycled photo yet in the years to come


----------



## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Bribie G said:


> I bet you did that all the time when you were a teenager B)
> 
> 
> Hey I bet this is going to be my best recycled photo yet in the years to come
> ...



I've got a few "bullshit to your filter" recyclers too! :super: 

Still own a filter though - just can't be arsed using it unless I'm being judged by people who judge a beer by its cover.


----------



## manticle (23/11/11)

I merely meant your majesty, that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.


----------



## sim (23/11/11)

It seems the OP has their sights on quicker drinking beer, which a filter certainly will provide. For the style of APA or IPA where haze from dry hopping might be a problem, and extra nasty tasting hop-bound-trub a probable senario (if youre trying to drink it quick) a filter will be your friend. Also, for someone without loads of refridgeration space a filter is great, absolutley, and almost an answer to cold conditioning. Though, a properly excecuted cold conditioning period can do wonders for beer, of all kinds not just lager. I think filtering does strip something from the beer, im just going to call it character.


----------



## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Bribie G said:


> I bet you did that all the time when you were a teenager B)
> 
> 
> Hey I bet this is going to be my best recycled photo yet in the years to come
> ...



Oops, quadruple post.


----------



## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Bribie G said:


> I bet you did that all the time when you were a teenager B)
> 
> 
> Hey I bet this is going to be my best recycled photo yet in the years to come
> ...



Oops, quadruple post.


----------



## Cocko (23/11/11)

sim said:


> It seems the OP has their sights on quicker drinking beer, which a filter certainly will provide. For the style of APA or IPA where haze from dry hopping might be a problem, and extra nasty tasting hop-bound-trub a probable senario (if youre trying to drink it quick) a filter will be your friend. Also, for someone without loads of refridgeration space a filter is great, absolutley, and almost an answer to cold conditioning. Though, a properly excecuted cold conditioning period can do wonders for beer, of all kinds not just lager. I think filtering does strip something from the beer, im just going to call it character.



^Brilliant.

As far as helping the op, I assume the point of the thread - said like a boss!



:icon_cheers:


----------



## Bribie G (23/11/11)

Yes I concede that the OP was more about getting a better yield of beer out of the keg, rather than a peeing contest between CC and filtering. However CC done in such a way that the beer going _into _the keg is clear to start off with can no doubt yield as much clear beer into the glass as filtering would do.


----------



## Cocko (23/11/11)

jbowers said:


> Just to clarify (ha!), my main reason for going down the filtering path is to have great tasting beer more quickly.






Bribie G said:


> Yes I concede that the OP was more about getting a better yield of beer out of the keg, rather than a peeing contest between CC and filtering.



Quicker.


----------



## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Cocko said:


> Quicker.



I've found that gravity filtering from primary can be a monkey's game. It's got to be pretty damn clear (secondary for a day or two at ferment temps at least) to not block a 1 mic filter cartridge. 

If I want FAST I rack to secondary for a day (makes a big difference to remove the unfloccy primary trub from the filtering equation) and then gravity filter (12mm lines) to keg. 

This gives BRIGHT beer at 7C - my Ale serving temp. I use Koppafloc in the kettle.


----------



## manticle (23/11/11)

W Shakespeare said:


> Popped out for a three of Henninger,
> To compare it with my Dort
> This I made with mine own hands
> From hops and yeast and wort
> ...


----------



## Bribie G (23/11/11)

Speedie would shyte all over you Manticle

*Fleeing from filtering

Storks in the clear sunset

Bright settling*


----------



## bradsbrew (23/11/11)

Love Dick Nick JD said:


> I've found that gravity filtering from primary can be a monkey's game. It's got to be pretty damn clear (secondary for a day or two at ferment temps at least) to not block a 1 mic filter cartridge.
> 
> If I want FAST I rack to secondary for a day (makes a big difference to remove the unfloccy primary trub from the filtering equation) and then gravity filter (12mm lines) to keg.
> 
> This gives BRIGHT beer at 7C - my Ale serving temp. I use Koppafloc in the kettle.



HaHa, never thought to change the name of the poster. Onya manticle, cant wait for TND to post again.



Sorry Nick had to use an example



Cheers


----------



## manticle (23/11/11)

Bribie G said:


> Speedie would shyte all over you Manticle
> 
> *Fleeing from filtering
> 
> ...



Sonnet VS Haiku.

That's a VS I'm interested in watching.

Especially if Sonnet is played by Jet Li and Haiku by Bruce Lee (or vice versa)


----------



## freezkat (23/11/11)

manticle said:


> If I wanted to read another debate between the merits of cold conditioning vs filtering, I'd shoot myself in the face.
> 
> Woops...... wha.....????


I gotta go with Manticle and say filtering is "removing" beer flavor. Waiting for crap to settle and flavor to mellow are the way to go.

I make wine also, yes filter some delicate wines, but the clarity of beer is way over rated.


----------



## Cocko (23/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> I've found that gravity filtering from primary can be a monkey's game. It's got to be pretty damn clear (secondary for a day or two at ferment temps at least) to not block a 1 mic filter cartridge.
> 
> If I want FAST I rack to secondary for a day (makes a big difference to remove the unfloccy primary trub from the filtering equation) and then gravity filter (12mm lines) to keg.
> 
> This gives BRIGHT beer at 7C - my Ale serving temp. I use Koppafloc in the kettle.



Taste, not time!

:icon_cheers:


Edit: Quicker to taste all nice like... I think thats what the op meant, thats what happens for me...


----------



## manticle (23/11/11)

freezkat said:


> I gotta go with Manticle and say filtering is "removing" beer flavor.



My point is not one or the other. My point is the discussion has been had. Beer clear is not clear but this beer is more clear, and on and so forth and my mac is better than your holden made in a BIAB bag without polyclar.

Dreary


----------



## pk.sax (23/11/11)

I think missing from this whole thread is......

google it


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## Cocko (23/11/11)

So what is CC'ing and other additives doing?

Hmm, stripping/dropping shit from the beer to make it clearer and taste better? Sorry, am I wrong?

So, rather to let all that take its course, you can force its hand and filter it out in a pass -is this not the same?

Not being smart, asking.


----------



## pk.sax (23/11/11)

what they said in the beginning of the thread was right. Not everything drops in ccing. somethings just don't. Filtration will definitely strip them out. Its quite a difference.

This is what I inferred when I said I tasted a commercial brewer's experimental filtered' kellerbier. It tasted all wrong. Bland.

I don't intend to know about the chemistry of everything. so it suffices for me that removing yeast gently (ccing & lagering) are way better than forcing it out in a filter.


----------



## drsmurto (23/11/11)

Cocko said:


> So what is CC'ing and other additives doing?
> 
> Hmm, stripping/dropping shit from the beer to make it clearer and taste better? Sorry, am I wrong?
> 
> ...



The various finings used are based on electrostatic attraction. Targeted fining.

Filters are based on size and as such have no selection other than that based on the size of the particle.

So yes you are wrong but it is a very good question which is quite rare for this forum :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bribie G (23/11/11)

And it depends very much on the style as well. For example many UK keg beers were filtered in the 1960s, then kegged in gas-serving kegs and sent to the trade. When I lived in Cardiff there was a very pleasant real ale called "Hancock's HB" which was my favourite at lunch with a cheese and onion roll. Served from the cask. The filtered and kegged version was called "Allbright" and was sort of the XXXX Gold of that city in that era, the tradies and steelworkers' drink. 

Chalk and cheese, absolute chalk and cheese.


----------



## Cocko (23/11/11)

DrSmurto said:


> The various finings used are based on electrostatic attraction. Targeted fining.
> 
> Filters are based on size and as such have no selection other than that based on the size of the particle.
> 
> So yes you are wrong but it is a very good question which is quite rare for this forum :icon_cheers:



So you have used everything except a filter, fining, polycar whatever, and you have a 'BRIGHT' beer, what would be in there that the filter removed?

Again, not being smart.


----------



## spudfarmerboy (23/11/11)

Bribie G said:


> I bet you did that all the time when you were a teenager B)
> 
> 
> Hey I bet this is going to be my best recycled photo yet in the years to come
> ...



Hello Bribie,
What is your method for getting your beer so clear and bright? Do you gelatine, Polyclar and Brewbrite.
Cheers


----------



## drsmurto (23/11/11)

Cocko said:


> So you have used everything except a filter, fining, polycar whatever, and you have a 'BRIGHT' beer, what would be in there that the filter removed?
> 
> Again, not being smart.



I don't know the answer to that.

A filtered beer seems to shine/sparkle, something i have not seen in an unfiltered beer.

Molecules that don't have a charge won't be removed by finings. Possibly hop resins.


----------



## manticle (23/11/11)

If you haven't used filter, polyclar and fining, what's left? Cold and time and gravity?

That's all I use and I would say my beers are clear (sometimes very clear and clear enough for me) but never bright. I care not since some of my favourite beers in the world are all bottle conditioned and never bright but I know the difference when I look at a commercial filtered pilsner.


What I believe the Doc is saying though is that the principles on which various substances are removed from the beer, differ with the method. Different methods may mean different results - I'll let Dr S explain the science in layman's terms on accout of him being a better scientist.


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## drtomc (23/11/11)

Different particles will drop at different rates. In general, heavy/big particles drop more quickly than light/small ones. Confounding this, at lower temperatures, some things (e.g. some proteins) stick together and go from being light/small to heavy/big. Also at lower temperature, there is less thermal motion in the beer, so things drop more quickly anyway.

Without doing a rigorous experiment (I don't have a GC-MS machine), I speculate that cold conditioning may leave some things that don't stick together and drop out that might get caught by a filter, but I note that this is speculation only.

T.


----------



## Cocko (23/11/11)

manticle said:


> If you haven't used filter, polyclar and fining, what's left? Cold and time and gravity?
> 
> That's all I use and I would say my beers are clear (sometimes very clear and clear enough for me) but never bright. I care not since some of my favourite beers in the world are all bottle conditioned and never bright but I know the difference when I look at a commercial filtered pilsner.
> 
> ...



By all means, not arguing in any way clearing beer is better than the next and agree with you mants, if you use nothing and have a clear beer or even a muddy beer - its your beer to enjoy... each to their own.

One of my favorite things I have ever read on this forum, and I wish I could say by who and where but I can't, was the phrase:

"I brew beer for me" - _whoever, whenever.. 203930 _

Agreed again, the Dr. IS saying, different stroke for different folks....

As am I...

Sorry OP

Back to 'If filtered beer is best'


----------



## Bribie G (23/11/11)

spudfarmerboy said:


> Hello Bribie,
> What is your method for getting your beer so clear and bright? Do you gelatine, Polyclar and Brewbrite.
> Cheers



The beer in question had BrewBright at the end of the boil. Fermented as a lager using Hella Bock yeast, then racked to a secondary "cube" and held at -1 for a couple of weeks (heresy for a German Style Lager but I needed the fridge)  

Kegged, and the keg put in my "waiting fridge" for a couple more weeks, then into the keggo and started serving last week. 

No gelatine on this occasion as I knew it was going to get a couple of good rests before serving.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (26/11/11)

in the posted picture my beer was in fact ice cold, the fermenter was at negative 1 before i filtered it. it was however not carbonated. mind you - i've not noticed that dissolved co2 makes a beer cloudy.

anyway - i have no interest in the filter or dont filter debate, its been done to death and people can decide for themselves.

As to the OPs whether it costs or saves beer question - I manage to get a bit better use of my beer if i filter. the filter means that you can continue to run to your keg even after gunk starts to come off the yeast cake in the fermenter, either primary or secondary, in fact if i am using (i rarely do) a secondary, then i would probably swirl it up when it was getting close to empty and run every last drop out of it. so you probably get to use maybe 500-1000ml of beer that otherwise you (or i at least) would leave behind.

beer loss in the filter - less than 250ml. Two ways to recover almost all of it.

Note - my filter and keg are completely filled with CO2, i dont purge, i have a keg filled with sanitiser and i push the sanitiser out of the keg, through the filter with C02 - so the air is fully displaced. purging isn't effective enough for me and C02 "blankets" are the product of over active imaginations.

The first stuff that comes out of the filter is fine and oxygen free, goes to keg - no waste.

Option 1 - If you need all the beer in there to fill your keg - At the end, when your fermenter is empty, before any air gets in the line, detach the tube from the fermenter and hook it up to a C02 source, push the last beer out of the filter with C02. Lose only a couple of hundred ml tops.

Option 2 - If you have a little spare volume - just turn the filter upside down and let it drain by gravity.... which will bubble air through the beer, mixing oxygen, so you dont want that in your keg. I put it into a PET bottle, where you can

a} bung in a spoon of sugar, naturally carbonate it and see for yourself, every batch you make, whether the "alive and natuarlly carbonated is better" argument holds up

b} screw on a carbonator cap, whack some gas onto that puppy, shake the shit out of it and reward yourself for your efforts with a virtually instant sample of your brew. or at least drink it first before the oxygen can do its evil work.

So for me, filtering wastes only about 200-250ml and gives me a net result of probably a litre or so of extra drinkable beer per batch vs finings/cc. I suspect that if i fined all the time i could refine the process and make it comparably efficient to filtering.... but i dont see that i could make it better without being willing to drink some cloudy beer.


----------



## Nick JD (26/11/11)

I filterd a keg once - beautifully clear and bright, then stored it at room temp. Must have has a point or two of gravity left to drop ... bloody yeast were active again and cloudied the frekin thing up again!


----------



## Ross (26/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> I filterd a keg once - beautifully clear and bright, then stored it at room temp. Must have has a point or two of gravity left to drop ... bloody yeast were active again and cloudied the frekin thing up again!




A little tip! Maybe not active yeast....... If you used Starsan or simlilar to clean your cartridge & used it while still wet, the residue of sanitiser can react with your beer & turn it hazy by the following day.


Cheers Ross


----------



## Nick JD (26/11/11)

Ross said:


> A little tip! Maybe not active yeast....... If you used Starsan or simlilar to clean your cartridge & used it while still wet, the residue of sanitiser can react with your beer & turn it hazy by the following day.
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



I flush the sanitised filter IN and OUT with a few liters. How much starsan would there need to be? All other times I've filtered it's been fine - as long as I cool the keg straight away.

Although there is a chance I forgot to flush the filter that time.


----------



## Maheel (26/11/11)

Ross said:


> A little tip! Maybe not active yeast....... If you used Starsan or simlilar to clean your cartridge & used it while still wet, the residue of sanitiser can react with your beer & turn it hazy by the following day.
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross




do you get the same effect just using starsan to clean the keg, leave in the no-rinse dregs and then have cloudy beer (from the star san) ?

not that i filter or care that much about clear & bright beer


----------



## Ross (26/11/11)

Not sure Nick, but we had a staff member here that we used to take the mick out of all the time because his filtered beers were always hazy.
He swore they were perfect the day before when first filtered. Watching his technique of flushing with Starsan & then straight into filtering, it was my guess that the starsan was reacting with the beer.
We than filtered after giving the cartridges a rinse in water & the problem was resolved.

Cheers Ross

I personally let the cartridge dry over night before filtering - Try weiging one dry & then wet, you'lll be surprised how much liquid they hold.


----------



## Ross (26/11/11)

Maheel said:


> do you get the same effect just using starsan to clean the keg, leave in the no-rinse dregs and then have cloudy beer (from the star san) ?
> 
> not that i filter or care that much about clear & bright beer



No, the residue is miniscule.

cheers Ross


----------



## Nick JD (26/11/11)

Ross said:


> I personally let the cartridge dry over night before filtering.



I've always been a bit nervous about doing that. A damp filter drying would be like an agar plate to a critter. 

Then again, the whole filtering business is a bit of a sanitisation compromise saved by the pH and alcohol in the beer I guess. I reckon you could filter cooled wort through a "cleaned" used filter to innoculate it.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (26/11/11)

i've had that happen if you leave the filter cartridge wringing wet with starsan, but you dont need to let it completely dry out to avoid it, just sanitise the filter first and let it drain while you set everything else up, by then most of the liquid will have drained out and you can just blow it out of the cartridge with the last of the pressure in your keg.That seems to be enough to avoid the potential for cloudiness. If you're organised enough to sanitise the day before then the filter drains pretty much completely and its a non issue.


----------



## kymba (26/11/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> i've had that happen if you leave the filter cartridge wringing wet with starsan, but you dont need to let it completely dry out to avoid it, just sanitise the filter first and let it drain while you set everything else up, by then most of the liquid will have drained out and you can just blow it out of the cartridge with the last of the pressure in your keg.That seems to be enough to avoid the potential for cloudiness. If you're organised enough to sanitise the day before then the filter drains pretty much completely and its a non issue.



does starsan remain capable of killing nasties after it has been administered to a filter even though it has dried? the outside parts of the filter cartridge are surely going to dry long before the insides are

i just plead ignorance, give it a decent wash in hot water then filter straight away...if there are bugs that can withstand my hot water then i should be dead already. not to mention the alc and c02 points that nick has raised


----------



## Thirsty Boy (26/11/11)

Well, thats partly why i dont advocate letting it dry out, but keeping inside of its housing, in which its been sanitised and which is sealed so bugs of any description aren't able to get at it.

if you are happy with hot water as sanitiser, fair enough, you'll never experience this issue - lots of people aren't happy with hot water as a sanitiser and they might, so its actually pretty handy that Ross mentioned it.


----------



## kymba (27/11/11)

so you keep your filter in the housing full of sanitiser or in there after draining (damp with sanitiser)?

not being smart, but genuinely interested - what are the concerns with only hot water? my hot water brings the entire filter housing & cartridge up to and beyond the minimum temp required by the authorities for food preparation and service...if it is good for a pie, it is good for my beer


----------



## Thirsty Boy (28/11/11)

kymba said:


> so you keep your filter in the housing full of sanitiser or in there after draining (damp with sanitiser)?
> 
> not being smart, but genuinely interested - what are the concerns with only hot water? my hot water brings the entire filter housing & cartridge up to and beyond the minimum temp required by the authorities for food preparation and service...if it is good for a pie, it is good for my beer



If you keep your filter and cartridge at 80 for 10 or 15 minutes then i would consider that good enough, any less and i would consider it not properly sanitised. But thats what i think, for my brewery, if you think hot tap water is good enough and you haven't had any issues - i'm not telling you to do anything different.

As i said earier in the thread - i fill a keg completely with starsan, and push the whole keg of starsan through and out of the filter and housing with C02 - This completely displaces all the air in the keg, filter, housing and lines & sanitises them in the same step. Everything remains sealed, closed and under a little pressure for half an hour or so while i get my other shit together and this gives the filter cartridge enough time to drain a fair bit of residual sanitiser into the bottom of the housing - i flip it upside down and use the last of the pressure in the keg to blow it out the vent valve on the housing. If i get the filter ready the day before, the only thing that changes is the amount of time it has to drain... this changes the amount of liquid that comes out of it only minimally.


----------



## Fourstar (28/11/11)

Ross said:


> Not sure Nick, but we had a staff member here that we used to take the mick out of all the time because his filtered beers were always hazy.
> He swore they were perfect the day before when first filtered. Watching his technique of flushing with Starsan & then straight into filtering, it was my guess that the starsan was reacting with the beer.




this was pretty much my process before my cartridge decided to fungus up soaking in nappisan whilst i was away in HKG and had the exact same results.

i would soak the cartridge in the housing whist i was prepping everything else. then force CO2 through the hosuing ensuring it was devoid of air and then filtering. The day of filtration, diamond bright. 1-2 days later, hazy. Hop hazy like.

I always assumed it was the star san and now i have some results whcih prove similiar to mine. Good to know. Got to get another cartridge again soon when i feel like burning 70 bucks on something non-essential*.

* i love filtering and it threw my process out for a while not using one. If i still had a functional cartiridge i can assure you i would be filtering 90% of my beers still.


----------



## Nick JD (28/11/11)

Fourstar said:


> * i love filtering



I love filtered beer. I don't love filtering.


----------



## sama (28/11/11)

Ross said:


> Cheers Ross
> 
> I personally let the cartridge dry over night before filtering - Try weiging one dry & then wet, you'lll be surprised how much liquid they hold.


Thats interesting,dosent this sort of negate the sanitising process,surely overnight stuff would be breeding in the thing? Do most people rinse with starsan and use not long after?


----------



## Cocko (28/11/11)

sama said:


> Thats interesting,dosent this sort of negate the sanitising process,surely overnight stuff would be breeding in the thing? Do most people rinse with starsan and use not long after?



For the last 3 years I have used proxitane, with out a fault - great product. Went back to get more and the store is now only selling it in cubes, which would probably last this whole forum a few years...

Anyways, I went with some starsan from Ross with all the hype I have read from this forum. Last week I used it to do my filter for the first time, also note it was a brand new cartridge from Ross on the same order, so I usually just let it drip dry for about an hour and shake the crap hole out if..... Did this, and filtered.

Expecting a crystal result, as always and a brand new cartridge, First pour I find its hazy WTF! Then read Ross' post in this thread and think hmm.....

I blame the starsan but very rarely get chill haze... will let a beer warm up and report back!

Cheers


----------



## Fourstar (28/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> I love filtered beer. I don't love filtering.



Correction, I love the results filtering gives.

One of the first few things we agree on Nick.


----------



## spudfarmerboy (28/11/11)

Ross said:


> Not sure Nick, but we had a staff member here that we used to take the mick out of all the time because his filtered beers were always hazy.
> He swore they were perfect the day before when first filtered. Watching his technique of flushing with Starsan & then straight into filtering, it was my guess that the starsan was reacting with the beer.
> We than filtered after giving the cartridges a rinse in water & the problem was resolved.
> 
> ...



Ross,
How do you sanitise the filter, with Starsan? If you leave it to dry overnight, do you keep it in the fridge?
Cheers


----------



## Ross (28/11/11)

I sanitise with Starsan the night before & leave it on the drainer with the housing over it to keep off any bugs.

cheers Ross


----------



## Thirsty Boy (28/11/11)

Bugs, or at least the germ type ones, do not fly, they fall - usually on dust. if you make something sanitary, then to all intents and purposes, it will stay that way indefinitely if you cover it up in a fashion that would stop it getting dusty.

fourstar - filter with a little mould on it.... soak in bleach and rinse well. No more problem and dont leave it in the nappisan so long next time.


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## Batz (29/11/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> As i said earier in the thread - i fill a keg completely with starsan, and push the whole keg of starsan through and out of the filter and housing with C02 - This completely displaces all the air in the keg, filter, housing and lines & sanitises them in the same step. Everything remains sealed, closed and under a little pressure for half an hour or so while i get my other shit together and this gives the filter cartridge enough time to drain a fair bit of residual sanitiser into the bottom of the housing - i flip it upside down and use the last of the pressure in the keg to blow it out the vent valve on the housing. If i get the filter ready the day before, the only thing that changes is the amount of time it has to drain... this changes the amount of liquid that comes out of it only minimally.




Very similar as my process, I only use perhaps a quarter of a keg and I sanitize with phosphoric acid not starsan. I have never had it produce a hazy beer and I have never rinsed or dried the filter either, doing that somehow seems to defeat the purpose to me.

Batz


----------



## Fourstar (1/12/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> fourstar - filter with a little mould on it.... soak in bleach and rinse well. No more problem and dont leave it in the nappisan so long next time.




This was the issue where i got some odour taint as well (i PM'd you about it) and tried the whole acid/alkaline thing with little success. I just decided to turf it than risk infecting x amount of batches.

Blowing 70 bucks on a replacement for me is a hell of a lot easier to swallow than the idea of having wasted two whole days brewing then fermenting and filtering to find out a few days down the track the beers have picked up some taint from the filter i KNEW was dodgy.


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## argon (1/12/11)

argon said:


> I think that's the only drawback to the filter in my mind... just not sure what the effects are of this bubbling that people experience. The brain says oxidation, but experience has told me that there's no ill effects.
> 
> 
> When i begin filtering i keep it in the upright position with the purge valve depressed to let the purged Co2 out. Then once full and purged i invert to allow the beer to flow and allowing any Co2 that comes out of solution to gather at the top of the housing. Maybe next time i try filtering (this weekend probably)i'll try holding the housing horizontally with the beer in at the top and the beer out at the bottom. That way when the air starts coming it will be above the beer going out??? dunno... worth a try maybe.



Filtered a double batch of IPA last night and tried holding the housing horizontal as described above... worked a treat. No bubbling. The air was still entering the housing. It was just entering it above the line of the beer, hence not bubbling through. So hopefully the potential for oxidation was minimized.

Also keeping it on topic, i filtered pretty much through the trub/yeast cake, picking up another 1.5-2L by my measurements. Fermenters had 41L in there and now i have 19L in one keg and as much as it takes to overflow the second... close to 20L once weighed. So probably only lost about 1-1.5L to trub. When i don't filter i would expect a 2L loss from each fermenter. 

So i guess the premise that filtering does save money by allowing greater volume/packaging efficiency has held true in my case.


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## Thirsty Boy (1/12/11)

Fourstar said:


> This was the issue where i got some odour taint as well (i PM'd you about it) and tried the whole acid/alkaline thing with little success. I just decided to turf it than risk infecting x amount of batches.
> 
> Blowing 70 bucks on a replacement for me is a hell of a lot easier to swallow than the idea of having wasted two whole days brewing then fermenting and filtering to find out a few days down the track the beers have picked up some taint from the filter i KNEW was dodgy.




remember now - yeah, you gave it the treatment.


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## Brewman_ (1/12/11)

Ross said:


> I sanitise with Starsan the night before & leave it on the drainer with the housing over it to keep off any bugs.
> 
> cheers Ross



I have noticed that a wet filter cartridge can hold a lot of sanitiser, so the first runnings thorugh the filter will have quite a bit of sanitiser. 


Just wondering whether anyone fast rinses the sanitised cartridge with hot > 80Deg.C water or even almost boiling water prior to filtering just to remove any residual sanitiser? 


Fear_n_Loath


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## Nick JD (2/12/11)

I flush mine with hot tap water. My 12mm lines fit my laundry sink - so it's a few liters of piping hot through the IN, then I turn the filter and put a few liters through the OUT to back flush. I soak in Starsan for an overkill half hour.

Not sure if anything over 85C is good for the filter.

To clean I back flush with cold tap water for about 10L, then flush with the same - then open up and add a tablespoon of napisan and leave the lid on upside down to keep the cartridge submerged for 2 days. Then I flush the napisan until the runnings are no longer "greasy", flick as much water out as I can and then leave it out to dry.

But usually I just add finings to secondary as it's MUCH easier. The filter is great when you're in a hurry to get the beer served.


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## Brewman_ (3/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> But usually I just add finings to secondary as it's MUCH easier. The filter is great when you're in a hurry to get the beer served.



I do much the same, except the hot water flush of the filter but I think that's a good idea, will do that next time.

On the finings: I have recently returned to using finings after many years. I am finding the results using finings very good. I am using finings in the primary, leaving to settle for two days, sometimes with low temps, sometimes not depending on the beer and then keg. Once I crack the keg it is fairly cloudy, but after about a third of the keg, I would say that the beer is very clear and almost filter bright. The filter gets some use, but not as much as it used to.

Fear_n_loath


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## KillerRx4 (3/12/11)

I dump the 1st litre or so of beer passed through the filter. A quick check with a refractometer will show how diluted it is with sanitiser or whatever the cartridge is wet with.


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## [email protected] (6/12/11)

Beer4U said:


> You can keg very clear beer from primary, just takes some time, sometimes gelatine and polyclar and some cold conditioning.
> Siphon from the top and you have clear beer in your keg, not hard at all.



While this is true  i am very happy with my clarity. This thread and recent events, such as me having to move my kegs around briefly - stiring up the stuff that had settled to the bottom
after a couple of weeks in the fridge, resulting in a few glasses of sub tasting beer and a couple of days to settle down again.
So all is well if i dont ever have to move the keg :angry: 

Anyway got some xmas money and bought a filter, will only be using it on the kegged beer, very happy with how my bottles turn out  

So 1 micron absolute it is, hopefully it makes for a more stable keg of beer.

Dam cheap beer! thats it this time! im not buying anything else so in the next 6months i will have cheap beer again


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## jbowers (6/12/11)

Beer4U said:


> While this is true  i am very happy with my clarity. This thread and recent events, such as me having to move my kegs around briefly - stiring up the stuff that had settled to the bottom
> after a couple of weeks in the fridge, resulting in a few glasses of sub tasting beer and a couple of days to settle down again.
> So all is well if i dont ever have to move the keg :angry:
> 
> ...



Thats my favourite part of filtering. The beer will be good from the get go, and moving it around wont make it trubby again.


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## rbtmc (8/12/11)

OK after all this talk of filtering I'm kind of keen to check it out...

So can someone recommend a decent filter?

:icon_cheers:


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## davo4772 (8/12/11)

I bought a cheapie first. Never worked properly, leaked. Didn't seem to filter well. 

Ended up cutting my losses and bought a craftbrewer model, awesome. Crystal clear beer.

I'm sure any of the sponsors will sell quality filters.


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## Nick JD (10/12/11)

I got a fifty buck one. Works a treat. It's got a 12mm in and out - which is handy because that's the outer diameter of my fermenter taps.

Fermenter on bench; filter on chair; keg on ground; clear beer into keg. Takes about 15 minutes.


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## sav (10/12/11)

sav said:


> I
> I totally agree with this comment.i hav been using the same filter for three years and it's starting to slow I might buy a new one soon not bad run.I would love too know how many lts it's done.




Just too quote myself about my filter slowing down its clean and white but slow.
After talking someone no names? about my filter I back flushed it with water with the hose and it has fixed it ,I filtered three keg in 30min sorry ross dont have to buy one yet.

sava


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## jbowers (16/12/11)

An update on this. For those considering filtering for the reasons I was hypothesising - do it. My entire keg is now drinkable, and is good from Day 1. No more waiting around for the yeast to drop, and I have to assume there will be no trubby glass at the end of the keg either. 

It's upped my usual keg/carb regime from 15 minutes to about an hour including the filtering by gravity and cleaning the filter. I still think it's worth it. Easily. Aside from beers that I plan to bottle condition for lengthy periods of time, and hefeweizens, I don't think I will ever keg a beer without filtering it from now on.

The problem for me was, even with a bloody good cold condition I would always disturb some yeast lifting the fermenter out of the freezer to where I bottle/keg.


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## raven19 (17/12/11)

For interest, this is how little beer is left in the filter after gravity filtering using a beerbelly type filter.


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## [email protected] (17/12/11)

After filtering one batch i can say i am happy i got one. 
Makes the whole brewing process more efficient, i will be brewing less beer in the future to fill my kegs as there is no wastage in the fermenter.

I also like the whole closed transfer, i purged with CO2 and when fermenter emptied i closed of the flow and gently forced the last of the beer through the filter with CO2.

The beer has been in the keg a week now and is tasting great, so instead of it sitting in the fermenter CCing, it can do that clean as whistle in the keg fridge.
Also means i am not running another fridge at 0 - 2 degrees for a week or more and with my electricity price set to jump to 31.35c/KWH in JAN that makes me happy. Needless to say i am shopping around for a better electricity deal.


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## Clutch (19/12/11)

I'm keen to try filtering, do you need kegs to do it in?


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## argon (19/12/11)

Clutch said:


> I'm keen to try filtering, do you need kegs to do it in?


Nope,

You can just filter to a bottling bucket/priming bucket. The bottle as normal. You will of course get some sediment via bottle conditioning, but it will be significantly less. You'll still have enough yeast for carbing, but it may take a little longer.


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## Nick JD (19/12/11)

Clutch said:


> I'm keen to try filtering, do you need kegs to do it in?



Why bother? Even if you bottle very turbid beer they will be clear by the time they are carbonated - and you can decant off the yeast.

Filtering will only delay the carbonation process, and there will still be too much yeast to drink from the bottle, as the yeast needs to repopulate the bottle to eat the priming sugar.


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## Florian (19/12/11)

Have to agree with Nick, yes you have less sediment in the bottle, but after all you still _have_ sediment in the bottle. 

Unless you are concerned to get 20ml more out of each bottle I wouldn't bother either. You also have an increased risk that some of the bottles might not carb up if you have issues with yeast health (doesn't have to happen, but the chances are certainly higher), and you have to leave your beer longer to carb which means longer at non-fridge temps, which doesn't do your beer any good either.


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## WitWonder (19/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> Why bother? Even if you bottle very turbid beer they will be clear by the time they are carbonated - and you can decant off the yeast.
> 
> Filtering will only delay the carbonation process, and there will still be too much yeast to drink from the bottle, as the yeast needs to repopulate the bottle to eat the priming sugar.



Not sure I agree; it only takes two weeks or so to carbonate bottles and there's no guarantee your beer will be clear in that time, nor is there any guarantee for kegged or bottled beer that it will ever clear to the level provided by filtering, as has been debated already in this thread. True you'll still have to most likely still decant the bottle, but what you're decanting is much clearer.


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## drsmurto (19/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> Why bother? Even if you bottle very turbid beer they will be clear by the time they are carbonated - and you can decant off the yeast.
> 
> Filtering will only delay the carbonation process, and there will still be too much yeast to drink from the bottle, as the yeast needs to repopulate the bottle to eat the priming sugar.



Filtering removes than just yeast


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## Nick JD (19/12/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Filtering removes than just yeast



Exactly! I often morn the loss of the yeast and the good job they do while bottle conditioning. And it must also be said that a healthy population of bottle yeast aids flavour development, such that many commercial bottle conditined beers have a fresh lager yeast added so they can condition the beer ... not just add fizz.

I feel for the poor, skiny, young and sick yeast that make it through the 1 mic filter leaving behind all their healthy peers. 

Filtered beer in a bottle is the Auschwitz of bottle conditioning. Not only does it remove flavour, it removes the cells that can most effictively condition your beer.

The diacetyl difference between my filtered US05 kegs and their bottled counterparts is staggering.


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