# Us / English Grain Substitutes



## under (19/4/10)

Hey All,

Im after a spreadsheet of some sort with all of the substitues of US/English/German malts that we cannot get here in Australia, or are named something different - i.e victory etc. Its a pain in the arse asking everytime and I think it would be handy when trying to convert a grain bill. Anyways this is my recipe, its a nut brown -

Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) - Im thinking Maris Otter / JW Traditional / BB Ale
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) - Caramunich III???
Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) - Same
Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) - Melanoidin/Amber/Brown??
Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) - Same


----------



## under (19/4/10)

I had a quick search about 'Oats'. Can they be subbed with normal uncle tobys oats, or just some quick oats etc!!!


----------



## Stuster (19/4/10)

Most oats should work. Really anything that says rolled oats as the rolling process gelatinises the proteins and makes them usable without a cereal mash. Quick oats are fine.

With the 2 row in that recipe, I think that something more like BB Galaxy or JW Pilsner might be better than the ale malts.


----------



## glaab (19/4/10)

View attachment grain_comparison.xls


quick oats are good,

I'd probably use Carared and sub Victory with Biscuit.


----------



## Sammus (19/4/10)

I think Amber is also a good subs for Victory, I think some make amber closer in colour to victory than what the biscuit is. I had it marked as my preferred substitute in beersmith for some reason, followed by biscuit.


----------



## Fourstar (19/4/10)

Victory = biscuit/amber and ive also read things that say blending the two makes it close to victory. Its a propritary malt by Briess but most highly kilned malts within the same SRM value should come close. I'd probabaly look at Simpsons Aromatic malt or Dingemans Bicsuit (whatever you can get your hands on) if it was my recipe.

as for the base malt just choose what you want, the closest to domestic US 2-row would be JW Ale or BB Ale. MO has abit more character than the ale's and gives a slight nuttiness to the beer.

The crystal would be any 60L crystal such as Caramunich II/III or Bairds Medium Crystal. The Joe White crystals will miss the mark, they fall in ranges roughly around 30L and 80L. Although blending the two is quite tasty!


----------



## benno1973 (19/4/10)

*US 2-row Pale Malt* I'd sub BB Ale or JW Ale. US 2-row is very light in flavour and used for some mass produced US beers. MO would be too nutty or biscuity, although you're adding some victory malt anyway, so it wouldn't affect the flavour profile too much. Pilsner malt would add a grainy sweetness which is different to the US 2-row.

*Caramel/Crystal 60L* I'd sub CaraMunich II which is around 60L. JW Crystal is 70L, so around the same as CaraMunich III.

*Oats, Flaked* you can use regular or instant oats. Instant oats are gelatinised at higher temps I think, which makes the starch more accessible, so that's always a better choice. If you use regular oats, it's better if you grind them up a bit smaller.

*Victory *I'd sub Amber.

*Chocolate Malt* requires no subbing.


----------



## under (19/4/10)

After looking at the comparison chart that glaab posted im inclined to do this as my recipe, since its a Nut Brown Ale afterall  -

Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) - Maris Otter (Giving a more pronounced nutty flavour)
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) - Caramunich III
Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) - Quick Oats
Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) - Melanoidin and Biscuit 50/50
Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) - Same

Thanks to all that chipped in. Appreciate it.


----------



## Fourstar (19/4/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> *Oats, Flaked* you can use regular or instant oats. Instant oats are gelatinised at higher temps I think, which makes the starch more accessible, so that's always a better choice. If you use regular oats, it's better if you grind them up a bit smaller.



Another good thing with oats is to toast them in a dry frying pan before using them! :icon_cheers:


----------



## mje1980 (19/4/10)

Victory = biscuit/amber 

I've used both amber and biscuit, and they are not similar at all IMHO. 

.02c


If you need quality control on this, i will be keen as mustard mate!!


----------



## benno1973 (19/4/10)

I think I meant CaraMunich III was 60L, not Cara II. Sorry. Looks like you've chosen Cara III anyway.

Melanoidin is a malt I'd hesitate to include more than 1-2% of as it makes a huge impact. If you're going to try 50/50 with biscuit, I'd suggest more like 90/10 biscuit/melanoidin.


----------



## mje1980 (19/4/10)

Yeah Kaiser i agree, not too much of either biscuit or melanoiden.


----------



## Fourstar (19/4/10)

mje1980 said:


> Victory = biscuit/amber
> I've used both amber and biscuit, and they are not similar at all IMHO.
> .02c
> If you need quality control on this, i will be keen as mustard mate!!



Sorry, I was alluding to these malts as being a substitute for victory, not biscuit or amber tasting like eachother. After all, its guess work for all of us on this board execpt for those who have used this malt (probabaly only the American blokes).

As i noted, ive read reports on brewboards (NB mainly from memory) that most call of amber or biscuit as a substitute for victory and some have noted good reports of blending these malts to simulate victory. I'd probabaly say the blending would be the best result to try and get the most of waht Briess describe Victory as.

I always find Biscuit/Aromatic/Imperial malt gives you different levels of a 'digestive biscuit' flavour from light to heavy baked where as Amber give a slightly tannic/bitter husk characteristic with a heavy toasted bread quality.

Anyway, here is Briess description of Victory. 

"This exceptional malt delivers truly unique biscuity, nutty flavors. With the distinctive and comforting aroma of baking bread, Victory Malt is awesome in Nut Brown Ales and other dark beers. It adds smooth, complex flavor and aroma to any beer style when used at low percentages. "

You might even be on a winner with around 1% Melanoiden in there to get the richness in the aroma hightened?!

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## under (19/4/10)

LOL.


Ok lads. Ill give you my percenatges and we can go from here ok.


Recipe: 17 - My Nuts In Your Brown
Brewer: Dazza
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Northern English Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 34.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.73 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) Grain 76.56 % 
0.41 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 8.51 % 
0.41 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 8.51 % 
0.21 kg Victory Malt (49.3 EBC) Grain 4.35 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1000.8 EBC) Grain 2.08 % 
25.00 gm Fuggles [7.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.7 IBU 
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (15 min) Hops 6.4 IBU


So now I need a sub for victory  And i think im going to do this with Nottingham, as im loving this yeast and have heaps spare.


----------



## benno1973 (19/4/10)

Love the name!


----------



## Fourstar (19/4/10)

under said:


> LOL.
> 
> Ok lads. Ill give you my percenatges and we can go from here ok.



Looks good. Considering its an NEB, i think about swapping the caramunich for Bairds Crystal/TF Crystal for that true English Crystal malt (if you can get it). Either way, its pretty much splitting hairs if you dont.

As for the Victory, this would be my suggestion.

3% Biscuit
1% Amber
1% Melanoiden (if no melanoiden, increase the amber)

Although traditionally a NEB would have straight Amber over Biscuit/victory malt so think about using the complete 4.35% as amber. (just to confuse you even more!) :lol:


----------



## Wolfy (19/4/10)

Fourstar said:


> Another good thing with oats is to toast them in a dry frying pan before using them! :icon_cheers:


Or the oven toasted gently till they smell like yummie fresh baked cookies, especially if they are to be used in a nut-brown-ale.


----------



## Fourstar (19/4/10)

Wolfy said:


> Or the oven toasted gently till they smell like yummie fresh baked cookies, especially if they are to be used in a nut-brown-ale.




Soo got to do this in an ale sometime soon. Turned out quite unique in a belgian wit. Im getting right into british ales these days and keen to start trialing them in a few bitters. Got to try the golden naked oats by Simpsons too. :icon_cheers:


----------



## katzke (20/4/10)

under said:


> After looking at the comparison chart that glaab posted im inclined to do this as my recipe, since its a Nut Brown Ale afterall  -
> 
> Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) - Maris Otter (Giving a more pronounced nutty flavour)



You can use Maris Otter if you want. It will be a different beer because it is a significantly different malt. US 2-Row is a neutral base malt for making ale and I would use the same of your malts. Basically whatever is your substitute grain for pale malt extract.

For the Victory I think I would use Biscuit. The color of Victory is about 29L so you may need to adjust color a bit with a darker bready malt.


----------



## Screwtop (20/4/10)

Anyone know what to sub for UK Mild Malt????

Screwy


----------



## hazard (20/4/10)

Fourstar said:


> Another good thing with oats is to toast them in a dry frying pan before using them! :icon_cheers:


So I assume that this is done with a dry pan - no oil?

I made an oatmeal stout recently and used home brand oats because they are cheap - could be a big mistake. The stout has been in the bottle for about 2 months now, has carbonation, but NO head retention at all  . My only guess is that the cheap oats have a high oit content, which is killing the head . Has anyone had a simialr experience? In the meantime, I would strongly advise - use good quality oats, don't skimp or you may regret it.


----------



## Fourstar (20/4/10)

Screwtop said:


> Anyone know what to sub for UK Mild Malt????
> Screwy



Having abit of a read Screwy its described as either mildly nutty, sweet and malty. Looking at the specs its kilned slightly higher than base malt but just below Munich territory, like 5 Lov~. 

Possibly blending Maris Otter with Golden Promise to get that sweet malt/nutty balance might be the go as long as you keep it on the lighter end of the Mild scale. Although if you are boosting your mild up with like 15% highly kilned malts and crystals its probabaly going to make SFA difference to your beer if you just used straight GP or straight MO.




hazard said:


> So I assume that this is done with a dry pan - no oil?
> I made an oatmeal stout recently and used home brand oats because they are cheap - could be a big mistake. The stout has been in the bottle for about 2 months now, has carbonation, but NO head retention at all  . My only guess is that the cheap oats have a high oit content, which is killing the head . Has anyone had a simialr experience? In the meantime, I would strongly advise - use good quality oats, don't skimp or you may regret it.



Yes dry pan, like dry roasing spices. Just keep agitating the pan until you start to smell the oats get toasty like baking bread aromas. I used Uncle Tobys instant in my witbier @ 8% of the grist and didnt notice any foam issues.


----------



## benno1973 (20/4/10)

hazard said:


> So I assume that this is done with a dry pan - no oil?
> 
> I made an oatmeal stout recently and used home brand oats because they are cheap - could be a big mistake. The stout has been in the bottle for about 2 months now, has carbonation, but NO head retention at all  . My only guess is that the cheap oats have a high oit content, which is killing the head . Has anyone had a simialr experience? In the meantime, I would strongly advise - use good quality oats, don't skimp or you may regret it.



I doubt cheap oats = high oil content. Firstly, homebrand packages are often packed by the major labels, just with different packaging. You may well be getting Uncle Toby's oats, just packed in homebrand packages. It makes sense for the supermarkets to do this, so they can concentrate on the business of supermarkets, rather than food production. It also minimises cost, and serves the cheaper end of the market, as people percieve product differences between brands when there often are none. (Check homebrand ingredients and percentages against major brand products - often you'll find that they are the same, because they are the same product).

Secondly, even if they were done at a separate processing plant, there would need to be a different oil content in the oats themselves before they were gelatinised. Gelatinising the oats simply presses them under hot rollers AFAIK, and I can't imagine how this process could be changed to raise or lower the oil content.

I've bought homebrand quick oats for an oatmeal stout, so I'll let you know how it goes...


----------

