# Just Answering



## pk.sax (10/2/12)

Maheel said:


> i wondered why all the Vic's are moving to QLD...



My doctor told me I'm not as smart as I used to be and should move to fit in better.


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## hendog88 (10/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> My doctor told me I'm not as smart as I used to be and should move to fit in better.



gimmie a few months and ill be up there too mate. leaving mexico for greener pastures!


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## raven19 (10/2/12)

Two good mates of mine have recently returned to SA after 1-2 yrs in Brissie.

Swings and roundabouts!? :icon_cheers:


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## bradsbrew (10/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> My doctor told me I'm not as smart as I used to be and should move to fit in better.



Yes we like to let some of the dumber ones in to bring down the average.


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## DUANNE (10/2/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Yes we like to let some of the dumber ones in to bring down up the average.


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## yardy (11/2/12)

I'd go back to the Northern Rivers today but queerland needs me too much :icon_cheers:


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## fnqbrew (11/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> My doctor told me I'm not as smart as I used to be and should move to fit in better.



Yeah, all the other Vics are here, so that makes sense.


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## losp (11/2/12)

Just a question, is queensland a little less nanny state. melbourne/vic is really starting to annoy me with that shit. so why not move to qld, the jobs pay more, the sun comes out more? What are the downsides? (other than the positives that Melbourne does have, sport/food etc)


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## pk.sax (11/2/12)

Fresh food is good but the restaurants are generally lame. There is plenty to like here and quite a few annoyances.

Try getting a driving license in this village, it's like going back to the dark ages! The TV is somewhat retarded, it's a good thing there is lots to do outdoors. Too many tourists though! The city is run over by tourists.

On the + side, the people are generally nice  I still like to go back to Melbourne when I can manage to, it's like stepping back into civilisation.

I'm staying for the wildlife...


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## browndog (11/2/12)

losp said:


> Just a question, is queensland a little less nanny state. melbourne/vic is really starting to annoy me with that shit. so why not move to qld, the jobs pay more, the sun comes out more? What are the downsides? (other than the positives that Melbourne does have, sport/food etc)



The tired old labor gov up here has just about rooted everything. Electricity and rates are though the roof, rego for a 6 cyl is about $800, huge tolls on all the latest roads, bridges and tunnels. Our public transport is among the highest priced in the world and set to go up 15% per year, unfortunately it is not to a world class standard. It does not pay to get sick in QLD either as labor has also rooted the health system, you can wait years for elective surgery. If you are thinking of moving to the Gold Coast and opening a business, then you may want to think again, for the past year or so it seems there has been at least 1 to 2 businesses being held up every day. Bob Katter was banging on about QLD being a nanny state with 70,000 pages of legislation and I agree with him. You can't do squat up here without a permit or the government's hand in your pocket. You need a fishing license to fish fresh water and the gov wants ( or wanted) to extend that to salt water. I would not say the sun comes out more much these days, SEQLD seems to be returing to more a tropical climate than it has in the past. Lots of regular rain and when the sun comes out the humidity is up 80-100% not nice at all. On the upside, the people up here are great, they are a friendly bunch and I think that when the flood occurred and the Mud Army came out in force it showed the kind of people QLDers are. I have to say QLD is a great place to live, exept at State of Origin time if you happen to be a cockroach like me.

cheers

Browndog


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## the_new_darren (11/2/12)

What hasn't labor stuffed up?

tnd


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## Maheel (11/2/12)

the_new_darren said:


> What hasn't labor stuffed up?
> 
> tnd



Rad-Adelaide? 

looks like we no who Browndog is voting for... :beerbang:


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## the_new_darren (11/2/12)

Maheel said:


> Rad-Adelaide?
> 
> looks like we no who Browndog is voting for... :beerbang:



Adelaide, corruption capital city of Aust. Labor fighting very hard against getting a corruption watchdog.

Introduction (numerous failed attempts costing millions) to bring in anti-association laws.

Loss of freedom of rights ALL over Australia.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (11/2/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Loss of freedom of rights ALL over Australia.


 :icon_offtopic: Tell me about it, people are too scared to call a spade a shovel. Bloody ridiculous and very un Australian..
Next there will be internet censorship because we paid for the NBN but they control it.
Nev


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## altstart (11/2/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> :icon_offtopic: Tell me about it, people are too scared to call a spade a shovel. Bloody ridiculous and very un Australian..
> Next there will be internet censorship because we paid for the NBN but they control it.
> Nev



Internet censorship is already here under the guise of the ACTA agreement. Apparently Australia has already signed this treaty without one word of public debate on the matter. This treaty in the UK has resulted in the Greater London Council preparing a bylaw to ban any photograhy in Trafalgar Square on the grounds of copyright infringement.
Cheers Altstart


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## Online Brewing Supplies (11/2/12)

altstart said:


> Internet censorship is already here under the guise of the ACTA agreement. Apparently Australia has already signed this treaty without one word of public debate on the matter. This treaty in the UK has resulted in the Greater London Council preparing a bylaw to ban any photograhy in Trafalgar Square on the grounds of copyright infringement.
> Cheers Altstart


I noticed UK had closed own some torrent sites, looks like we are next.
Be alarmed but dont be aware .
Nev


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## Fish13 (11/2/12)

you can not own a rabbit in queensland.

they keep the tolls on the roads after the tolls have paid for the roads many times over.

the hot chicks are far and few between and the hot chicks are made from plastic. watch out for crocs... not just the local cops too.

umm the place is filled with cane toads and sugar cane. everywhere i went in queensland the outskirts of town was marked with sugar cane.


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## altstart (11/2/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I noticed UK had closed own some torrent sites, looks like we are next.
> Be alarmed but dont be aware .
> Nev



If you want to read about it here it is. http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_save_the_internet/?tta
Cheers Altstart


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## sim (11/2/12)

Maheel said:


> looks like we no who Browndog is voting for... :beerbang:



cant wait for CSG to put QLD on the map... <_<


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## NickB (11/2/12)

+1

The morons who still give approvals for CSG and fracking. Why has none learnt from the lessons in the US.... Bloody shocking. Mind you, the opposition and 'I'll close all public services' Newman is definitely no better, and be f%*ked if I'm giving Katter too much power... He says it like it is, but often how he sees it, and how normal people see it are not one and the same....

And while I'm on a rant, the courts and magistrates especially need to start handing out punishment that actually fits the crime. Boot a few people to prison for life (actual life, not '15 years' life) and you might start seeing the opportunistic criminals who know they'll only get a slap on the wrist, think twice before pulling stunts like armed hold-ups for a measly couple hundred dollars...

OK, ok, rant over!


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## browndog (11/2/12)

sim said:


> cant wait for CSG to put QLD on the map... <_<



Unfortunately I think the loony greens are the only ones against coal seam gas, labor and I guess the LNP just see it as money in their pockets. I'm pretty sure Katter wants to give the farmers the right to tell the miners to piss off so that is a point in his favour. You only have to look at what they have done to Gladstone, you really have to feel for the fishermen up there.


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## Rina (11/2/12)

I like Victoria. This is a case to get all 'wowser' about http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news...2-1226267205806 but the politicians aren't getting carried away with the scandalous nature. Afaik the guy had his phone stolen from him and the students uploaded the video on the phone to the web. 

Looks like a douche though.


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## Batz (11/2/12)

Queenslanders do seem to have a problem driving on the correct side of the road, and they are worlds worst tailgaters as well. I've lived in a few states but this one is by far the best, but a change of government is way over due. 

Batz


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## QldKev (11/2/12)

There's only 2 states to be in 

Queensland and Pissed!


I agree we need to move these pollies out to pasture

QldKev


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## yardy (11/2/12)

NickB said:


> *And while I'm on a rant, the courts and magistrates especially need to start handing out punishment that actually fits the crime. Boot a few people to prison for life (actual life, not '15 years' life) and you might start seeing the opportunistic criminals who know they'll only get a slap on the wrist, think twice before pulling stunts like armed hold-ups for a measly couple hundred dollars...*



it's very difficult for the police to apprehend criminals when all they are is a revenue raising department.

as an aside, i would love to see Anna Blight and Campbell Spewman drive north from Gympie to Rockhampton, which ever one survives would most likely get my vote, parts of the Bruce Hwy on this stretch are less than a car width wide with potholes that will destroy a front end and literally put you off the road or into the path of an oncoming truck, this is NOT due to recent flooding or even the Xmas 2010 floods, it's a f&%king disgrace and if you believe the media, will cost more than $1,000,000 a km to repair.
If Katter could show that the money dragged out of CQ and beyond would be spent in the region where the royalties originated, he would probably get my vote.

Yard


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## NickB (11/2/12)

Yep, SEQ is more spoilt in spending. When I was living in Nanango, was the same deal. Potholes, roads less than a car wide with gravel verges, signs missing or bent out of shape.... But I know the further north you go, the speed limit increases, and the road condition deteriorates.....

Cheers


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## jlm (11/2/12)

Ahhhh good ole qld. Or more appropriately seqld and the rest of the qld, as yardy pointed out. As some one who was born and bred (a term another forum member likes to use....) I'll say the state of south east qld is fu&*ed and cannot and will not be fixed, regardless of which side of politics is running the place. What's more, seqld'ers (and I say this as one) have to be the most whining, unwilling to do anything about their alleged gripes bunch whatever's I've had to deal with compared to other folk ive dealt or spent time with from this country. Looking forward to bagging out on flathead next weekend in NickB's old country..... :beerbang:


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## NickB (11/2/12)

God's country is old Tassie. I'm sure I'll end up back there at some point. Have fun with the flatty fishing! Where are you headed to jlm?

Cheers!


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## Screwtop (11/2/12)

QldKev said:


> There's only 2 states to be in
> 
> Queensland and Pissed!
> 
> ...


 

:beer: When will non party aligned voters learn to change the bastards every time. A second term = trust = do what is best for politicians.

When will voters realise that money does change hands for favours in politics.

Screwy


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## jlm (12/2/12)

NickB said:


> God's country is old Tassie. I'm sure I'll end up back there at some point. Have fun with the flatty fishing! Where are you headed to jlm?
> 
> Cheers!



Visiting friends at Charlotte Cove. Really love that area, the south channel round to Cygnet, but work dictated that we move to the north. Still, can't complain, we're renting 2 acres on the Tamar for the same that we rent out our place in Mansfield. Prefer waking up to this every morning
much more to suburban brisbane:


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## bonj (12/2/12)

NickB said:


> And while I'm on a rant, the courts and magistrates especially need to start handing out punishment that actually fits the crime. Boot a few people to prison for life (actual life, not '15 years' life) and you might start seeing the opportunistic criminals who know they'll only get a slap on the wrist, think twice before pulling stunts like armed hold-ups for a measly couple hundred dollars...


Weee..... I'll jump on the bandwagon here....

Sorry Nick, that's total crap. Raising penalties as a deterrent simply doesn't work. If it did, there'd be no murders in the USA.

Put people away for life sure, but next there'll be complaining about how much it costs to keep them in jail and why should our taxes increase? If we want sentences to increase, we need to be willing to pay for it. Our prisons are full as it is. Where will we put them all? Oh build a new prison, sure... that'll work, but no-one wants a new prison in *their* neighbourhood... and the cost... no-one wants to pay for that either.

If you do some research, you'll actually find that Queensland is the toughest state on crime. Compared to Victoria, the so called Nanny state, and NSW, we are complete fascists. I know this because I personally know lawyers working in criminal law in every Eastern state... both defence and prosecution.


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## bonj (12/2/12)

Screwtop said:


> :beer: When will non party aligned voters learn to change the bastards every time. A second term = trust = do what is best for politicians.
> 
> When will voters realise that money does change hands for favours in politics.
> 
> Screwy


+1 (take that all you +1 haters!)

Swinging voters are what keep the bastards honest... particularly with a unicameral parliament in Qld.


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## NickB (12/2/12)

OK Bonj, I'll agree with the building more prisons thing. But think about the amount of repeat offenders who continually commit crimes like armed robbery, get put away for a couple of years, get out and do it all again. Surely there's a better option than a 'slap on the wrist'...??

Cheers


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## bonj (12/2/12)

NickB said:


> OK Bonj, I'll agree with the building more prisons thing. But think about the amount of repeat offenders who continually commit crimes like armed robbery, get put away for a couple of years, get out and do it all again. Surely there's a better option than a 'slap on the wrist'...??


1. They don't just get a slap on the wrist. This is a fallacy perpetuated by conservative media outlets like the Courier Mail.
2. Increasing penalties only works for certain crimes. It doesn't work for crimes of opportunity or desperation. Addressing the cause of crimes of desperation is the only thing that works, but that's too "touchy feely/bleeding heart/left wing/communist", so it never gets the funding it deserves.

I agree that certain facets of the criminal world need serious attention right now, but evidence suggests that deterrence just doesn't work. I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does, which just feeds our own concerns and the conservative media outlets.


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## NickB (12/2/12)

Sheesh mate, I'm offended that you'd even insinuate that I read the Courier Mail. Or any newspaper for that matter.......

I think we can agree to disagree on this one. :beer: 

Cheers


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## bonj (12/2/12)

NickB said:


> Sheesh mate, I'm offended that you'd even insinuate that I read the Courier Mail. Or any newspaper for that matter.......
> 
> I think we can agree to disagree on this one. :beer:
> 
> Cheers


I'm not saying that at all, it was just an easy target as an example of the media outlets I was referring to. I think the general population are largely misinformed about this subject and all media outlets are guilty of perpetuating that... either with their outright conservative propaganda, or the simple fact that they never follow up on anything, so no-one ever hears the full facts. They're only after sensationalism to fuel outrage in the pursuit of more viewers/readers.

I'd certainly rather tax money being spent on preventing crime than dealing with it after the fact. I'd rather see the deadbeat loser dole bludgers paid above the poverty line if it means they're sitting around in their garages smoking ciggies and drinking tax-payer funded piss than using those same dollars to imprison them because they're so desperate to actually survive that they threaten some poor petrol station attendant trying to earn an honest living.

Bring in some new leadership with fresh ideas!


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## manticle (12/2/12)

I think sentencing has/should have a punitive, protective, and restorative* aspect as well as a rehabilitory one.

I agree with the idea of reducing/removing causes of crime and the heavy handed conservative media driven 'throw the book at them' is misguided but imprisonment isn't just for reform and poverty and desperation is not the sole cause of all crimes.

Just throwing a couple of extra ideas into the mix.

* as in restoring balance/justice or the idea of those to society and victims.


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## bonj (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> imprisonment isn't just for reform and poverty and desperation is not the sole cause of all crimes.


I totally agree with you manticle. The problem with stupidity, poverty and desperation is that raising penalties doesn't stop their stupidity, poverty or desperation. It probably works quite well with white collar crime, but I don't have any knowledge of that.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

Bonj said:


> raising penalties doesn't stop their stupidity, poverty or desperation.



Agreed. However people who commit violent crime for example, will commit it again if you don't address those issues and if they are released back into the community.

Solution needs to be twofold. Smart politician/legislators who were less interested in media circuses, polls and popular votes and more interested in making things work (addressing social issues etc) would be be a great start.

Until then, it's just fuel for fuckwits like Andrew Bolt (and many, many equivalently one eyed bigots from the other side of politics).


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

Re poor desperate criminals, I see that and I squarely blame the Aussie - 'so what, no worries' mentality. I won't beat around ge edge of the debate, it's the aborigines that are worst affected by this. Their social structure just doesn't seem to be able to cope with them getting infected with the above mentioned attitude.
I've personally suffered, albeit mildly, at the hands of their crime.
The bleeding hearts need to realise that all or nothing has a place in some circumstances. Punishments need to be there and be uniform while they are at it.

PS: if by raising penalties you mean raising it from zero to something?! That's what they seem to get for everything, it's like they have nothing to lose by committing crime. Punishment should go hand in hand with rehabilitation, there need to be avenues for rehabilitated crooks to actually try and stay out of what sent them in last time.


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## bonj (12/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> Re poor desperate criminals, I see that and I squarely blame the Aussie - 'so what, no worries' mentality. I won't beat around ge edge of the debate, it's the aborigines that are worst affected by this. Their social structure just doesn't seem to be able to cope with them getting infected with the above mentioned attitude.
> I've personally suffered, albeit mildly, at the hands of their crime.
> The bleeding hearts need to realise that all or nothing has a place in some circumstances. Punishments need to be there and be uniform while they are at it.
> 
> PS: if by raising penalties you mean raising it from zero to something?! That's what they seem to get for everything, it's like they have nothing to lose by committing crime. Punishment should go hand in hand with rehabilitation, there need to be avenues for rehabilitated crooks to actually try and stay out of what sent them in last time.


Of course there needs to be punishment. Without penalty, there's no reason for *anyone* to do the right thing. By raising, I mean increasing the penalty from what it is currently. If by saying the penalty is currently zero, you're implying that the penalties are too low, then we're going around in circles.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/2/12)

Here is one for you, a guy breaks into our house (armed with a sharp object) while we are asleep, takes the wifes Mac, purse and keys to the 6 week old ford.
He is apprehended about 1500km north with four of his bros in our flogged out ford. He had 96 previous convictions, so they let him out on bail and he obviously takes off.
He is apprehend again and goes to court and found guilty.
Sentence = 20 hrs community service. What a joke !  
That just cost the tax payer thousands and the result is bloody laughable.
Nev


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## NickB (12/2/12)

This is what I'm talking about. Punishments to fit the crime, especially those who are repeat offenders. It's a joke what some magistrates class as 'punishment' these days...


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## bonj (12/2/12)

If those 96 previous convictions were for the same offence, then I agree, it seems lenient. A lot of factors come into play in sentencing. Personal circumstances, totality in sentencing, etc. But I don't know the full facts of that case, and I don't know anything about WA criminal law.


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## Rina (12/2/12)

Bonj said:


> If those 96 previous convictions were for the same offence, then I agree, it seems lenient. A lot of factors come into play in sentencing. Personal circumstances, totality in sentencing, etc. But I don't know the full facts of that case, and I don't know anything about WA criminal law.


Pretty much. A news article at least may indicate to some of the factors at play.

The issue of re offending criminals is complicated. This is an interesting article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13345189


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## Batz (12/2/12)

A dozen strokes of the Rattan doesn't cost the tax payers much and I bet the offender would remember it. It works in Singapore and Malaysia, oh the out cry of the do gooders hey?

Repeat offender 96 times, I think not.

Batz


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## Rina (12/2/12)

Batz you'd start at school if you wanted to go that route.


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## Pollux (12/2/12)

I'm all for some level of increased sentencing, and repeat offended should be dealt with in an even harsher manner...

Take this example from my local paper



> Teenager's car park rampage
> 08 Feb, 2012
> 
> A teenager who broke into 12 cars in one night caused nearly $10,000 in damage and stole goods to the value of more than $3000, Orange Childrens Court has heard.
> ...




Clearly this fucker has zero respect for the law, odds are he'll serve 3months detention, return to the street and do the same shit again.......Honestly I hope he gets caught by someone who won't just honk their horn and call the cops but grab him and make him disappear from society, plenty of bushland around here if you know what I mean......Or perhaps I've been watching too much Dexter lately.


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## Rina (12/2/12)

Problem is he is still seen as a minor.


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## bconnery (12/2/12)

Bonj said:


> Bring in some new leadership with fresh ideas!


Buggered if I can see where you except to find those though!


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

@ Bonj, it's more like zilch is done at times to apprehend/punish them because it will get nowhere. If I can believe the local newspaper, some shops tell their employees to let certain people shoplift because it's just not worth pursuing. And ge not just them, taking their cue, everyday Joe does the same these days. I know that for a fact because of hearing it from the offender's mouth.

@Batz, thinking more along the lines of compulsory hard labour. There are roads that need repairing up here, I'm sure they can round up enough to do night works. Considering some of the damage from Yasi year is/was still being repaired there is plenty of hard labour to be found. Might even give them some work skills and maybe a small amount of pride in doing constructive work rather than the BS community service crap.


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## Batz (12/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> @Batz, thinking more along the lines of compulsory hard labour. There are roads that need repairing up here, I'm sure they can round up enough to do night works. Considering some of the damage from Yasi year is/was still being repaired there is plenty of hard labour to be found. Might even give them some work skills and maybe a small amount of pride in doing constructive work rather than the BS community service crap.



You immediately have high costs involved, transport, overseeing, accommodation and food, the list goes on.


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## bonj (12/2/12)

Why don't we just eat them. Soylent green, am I right people?


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## Batz (12/2/12)

Rina said:


> Batz you'd start at school if you wanted to go that route.




The cane was used when I was at school and yes I copped it a couple of times and didn't do me any harm. If I did get the cane I sure as hell wouldn't go running home to tell my Dad so he could complain to the school, I'll run the risk of another from him.  

Batz


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

Batz said:


> You immediately have high costs involved, transport, overseeing, accommodation and food, the list goes on.


So, we're back to the fact that the problem has been created and we want to only use the cheapest nastiest way to deal with it!? Great approach, I totally get where the government gets the motivation for its approach from, if the people think that way then of course the govt will do fuckall about it. No matter what party - not my problem, why should I deal with it - everyone says that until they get robbed/raped etc.


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## Rina (12/2/12)

If you wanted to 'solve' crime petty crime you'd start with the parents, job rehabilitation etc.


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## TasChris (12/2/12)

Bonj said:


> Why don't we just eat them. Soylent green, am I right people?


My favourite T shirt slogan.

Feed the homeless to the hungry.

Cheers
Chris


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## TidalPete (12/2/12)

Just found this thread & can sympathise with all you blow-ins who came up here for a better life & to stuff up ours I don't think.

Northern NSW would be a much better choice for every single one of you as the climate is approx the same as SE Qld, no Anna Bligh, no tailgaiting, no restrictions on your ideal expectations in life but most importantly of all born & bred Queenslanders would not have to listen to all this crying, pathetic, self centred crap. :lol: 

If things up this way are too much of a culture shock for you poor bastards then the answer is soooo simple. ------------ Just go back where you came from (or to Northern NSW) for a better life.
Goodbye Locky & Happy Retirement :super: --- Hello seven years straight Origin supremacy. :super: 

Gentle hint --- Certain posters on the dope reply at their yellow peril. I have lots of ammunition & getting very tired of your bad-mouthing to anyone silly enough to believe you.<_< 

TP


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

While ur at it, I need some TP for my bunghole :lol:


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## booargy (12/2/12)

We should increase prision sentences and the number of prisons. This will create jobs in the construction industry, the police service, the legal system and the security industry. Then we just sell every thing we own and pay a foriegn company to run every thing.
See it is win win. We get jobs and we don't have to worry because someone else runs the joint.
Good example. We have a government in a country that won't give the people passports. We don't like these people so who gives a ****. So someone has this great idea. Lets get a thousand million dollars and go to that country kick that gov out open up their borders. Show them how rich we are and make out how much we like them. We must like them because who sends people to be killed on their behalf if you don't like them? 
Then when they start coming here we get some more money and build facilities for them. Then we get another thousand million and pay a pommy company to run those facilities. 
See win win for someone. :blink:


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## TidalPete (12/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> While ur at it, I need some TP for my bunghole



GBWYCFYSPPF. :lol: :lol: 

Ohhhh! I love this. Giving you southern blow-ins a touch-up makes my day (Thanks Clint) :super: :lol: 

TP


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## thebeemann (12/2/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Here is one for you, a guy breaks into our house (armed with a sharp object) while we are asleep, takes the wifes Mac, purse and keys to the 6 week old ford.
> He is apprehended about 1500km north with four of his bros in our flogged out ford. He had 96 previous convictions, so they let him out on bail and he obviously takes off.
> He is apprehend again and goes to court and found guilty.
> Sentence = 20 hrs community service. What a joke !
> ...



And if he hurts himself on your property he can sue you ........ Guy in WA held an 8 yr old girl hostage and raped her for 8 days found her weighing under 20 kg she DIED on the way to hospital ...... This PRICK has been in jail 3 times as a convicted pedophile two words DEATH PENALTY !!!!!!
Parents cant do **** all to our kids anymore in the way of dicipline , bring back National Service , bet that straightens the kids out , and they wont be that keen to leave school at 14 yo either.


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## TidalPete (12/2/12)

Never, never, ever do something to make a forum moderator your (perceived) enemy.

MY CRIME (?) was to delete him from my "My Friends" list owing to the humiliation of having my PRIVATE P

Thanks to Moderator Batz this thread has been moved to "All Latest Threads" because of a percieved threat about his integrity? 
This "percived threat" is a matter of fact & I am going on record to state that this moderator has & is fiddling with my posts on this forum


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

Lmfao

Thanks mods for moving. I still haven't workers out the full expansion of that one TP. See, not as sharp as used to be


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## Batz (12/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> Lmfao
> 
> Thanks mods for moving. I still haven't workers out the full expansion of that one TP. See, not as sharp as used to be




No worries mate, yes I did move it to off topic at your request. I do agree with you as I can't see it has anything to do with beer.


Batz


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## Batz (12/2/12)

TidalPete said:


> Never, never, ever do something to make a forum moderator your (perceived) enemy.
> 
> MY CRIME (?) was to delete him from my "My Friends" list owing to the humiliation of having my PRIVATE P
> 
> ...




I moved this thread to _Off Topics _Pete, it had nothing to do with you it was a request of another member. You are stating my name and accusing me of fiddling with your posts, no I have not fiddled with your posts, please get your facts correct before you start making accusations.

Batz


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## jlm (12/2/12)

I certainly hope you didn't fiddle with his PRIVATE P.


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## bradsbrew (12/2/12)

Batz said:


> I moved this thread to _Off Topics _Pete, it had nothing to do with you it was a request of another member. You are stating my name and accusing me of fiddling with your posts, no I have not fiddled with your posts, please get your facts correct before you start making accusations.
> 
> Batz



Pete, Mate I was also PMed to move this thread to off topic. It certainly had nothin to do with you mate. I think you might owe Batz a beer big fella.




Cheers Brad


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## the_new_darren (12/2/12)

Batz said:


> The cane was used when I was at school and yes I copped it a couple of times and didn't do me any harm. If I did get the cane I sure as hell wouldn't go running home to tell my Dad so he could complain to the school, I'll run the risk of another from him.
> 
> Batz



Yep, me too. My parents actually endorsed me getting caned if I played up

Bring back the cane!!!

tnd


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## bum (12/2/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Yep, me too. My parents actually endorsed me getting caned if I played up
> 
> Bring back the cane!!!


For you? Yeah, I'm with your parents on that one.


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## goomboogo (12/2/12)

thebeemann said:


> Guy in WA held an 8 yr old girl hostage and raped her for 8 days found her weighing under 20 kg she DIED on the way to hospital



When were these offences supposedly committed? Do you have a source for this information?


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## leiothrix (12/2/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Yep, me too. My parents actually endorsed me getting caned if I played up
> 
> Bring back the cane!!!
> 
> tnd




The problem is adulthood -- do you know how much it costs to find someone to do that now?


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## Rina (12/2/12)

thebeemann said:


> Parents cant do **** all to our kids anymore in the way of dicipline , bring back National Service , bet that straightens the kids out , and they wont be that keen to leave school at 14 yo either.


Yes because our defence forces are such bastions of ethics and morals right now http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/filming-...0912-1k5cw.html


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## dane (12/2/12)

Guys, I just un-approved a couple of posts.

If you have a problem with the mods or anything regarding the site you PM me.

This is already off topic - if people continue to post rubbish we'll close the thread.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

thebeemann said:


> Parents cant do **** all to our kids anymore in the way of dicipline , bring back National Service , bet that straightens the kids out , and they wont be that keen to leave school at 14 yo either.



I can't understand how hitting someone or making them learn how to kill people for a couple of years is really going to help make a better society.


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## bum (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> I can't understand how hitting someone or making them learn how to kill people for a couple of years is really going to help make a better society.


All depends how you define "better".

Fear is a pretty well proven control mechanism.


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## Rina (12/2/12)

It worked for Sparta


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## bum (12/2/12)

Rina said:


> It worked for Sparta


TMV were better.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

bum said:


> All depends how you define "better".



Not at war, not bombing the shit out of each other, not making laws discriminating against people of a certain colour, gender or sexuality, not boldly lying through our teeth for our own benefit, not basing every decision and action purely on financial profit, not ******* up every bit of natural history around us and basically not being a prick, arsehole or **** by default (or at least being aware of and accepting responsibility for being said appellations).


It's a start, anyway.


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## jlm (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> Not at war, not bombing the shit out of each other, not making laws discriminating against people of a certain colour, gender or sexuality, not boldly lying through our teeth for our own benefit, not basing every decision and action purely on financial profit, not ******* up every bit of natural history around us and basically not being a prick, arsehole or **** by default (or at least being aware of and accepting responsibility for being said appellations).
> 
> 
> It's a start, anyway.


It'll never fly. Would require empathy to be considered in one's daily tally of who to be hated/feared.


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

Have you given thought to the notion that the laws of entropy work on human behaviour?

As we progress in so called civilisation, so must we regress in other aspects of civilisation. There is no win win, its always win-lose.


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## raven19 (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> Not at war, not bombing the shit out of each other, not making laws discriminating against people of a certain colour, gender or sexuality, not boldly lying through our teeth for our own benefit, not basing every decision and action purely on financial profit, not ******* up every bit of natural history around us and basically not being a prick, arsehole or **** by default (or at least being aware of and accepting responsibility for being said appellations).
> 
> 
> It's a start, anyway.



I look forward to meeting you in person one day fella.


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## Rina (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> Not at war, not bombing the shit out of each other, not making laws discriminating against people of a certain colour, gender or sexuality, not boldly lying through our teeth for our own benefit, not basing every decision and action purely on financial profit, not ******* up every bit of natural history around us and basically not being a prick, arsehole or **** by default (or at least being aware of and accepting responsibility for being said appellations).
> 
> 
> It's a start, anyway.


You really are a teenager  

We do have those laws that make it illegal to discriminate against people. And they do 'work' http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bolt-los...0928-1kw8c.html 

Anyway this thread has confirmed that Victorians are bleeding heart liberals (in the American definition).


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## jlm (12/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> Have you given thought to the notion that the laws of entropy work on human behaviour?
> 
> As we progress in so called civilisation, so must we regress in other aspects of civilisation. There is no win win, its always win-lose.


I don't see that that notion being particularly relevant to human behaviour (it is of course subjective.....now we're gonna get philosophical and shit, where's lecterfan?). I think the ideas manticle put forward could be embraced without having to revert to barbarism (even though the idea of dressing up in Man-o-war garb and starting fights in town does appeal to me) in whatever it was he didn't completely cover there.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

Rina said:


> You really are a teenager
> 
> We do have those laws that make it illegal to discriminate against people. And they do 'work' http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bolt-los...0928-1kw8c.html
> 
> Anyway this thread has confirmed that Victorians are bleeding heart liberals (in the American definition).




Yep. A 36 year old balding teenager. I'm handsome too.

If living by the mantra 'don't be a ****, don't be an arsehole' makes me a bleeding heart liberal, then get the mop because I just made a mess of the floor.

As for that link - it's pretty hard to differentiate between my disdain for people like Andrew Bolt and my disdain for people like Geoff Clark but I was talking about human society as a whole, not just the legal framework in this nation. Not sure how shithead 1 no longer having carte blanche to write vitriolic garbage about shithead 2 fits in to my reply to bum about the ingredients for a better society but I'm a flexible guy.

Don't bomb, kill, discriminate, exploit = bleeding heart? Cool.

@Raven: Cheers.

@practicalfool: An interesting question philosophically perhaps but I don't accept it. We can simplify things, we can treat others and our environment with some modicum of respect or we can be lazy and self serving. Simple decision, up to the individual and not ruled by entropy or civilisation. Your question also presupposes that civilisation/progress is entirely linear which I don't believe it is or ever has been.


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## Lecterfan (12/2/12)

jlm said:


> I don't see that that notion being particularly relevant to human behaviour (it is of course subjective.....now we're gonna get philosophical and shit, where's lecterfan?)



:lol: I just replied to about 3 posts and deleted it, this is no place for me to spout off...I've been busy emptying my rhetoric bucket which is full to the brim...

All I'd say about many of the ideas put forward is this: nothing, absolutely nothing, in our shared lifeworld/factical reality (please don't reply with pre-Heidggerian ontology to this comment and expect me to acknowledge it) exists in a value/judgement/contextual-vacuum, but we tend to make decisions based on transitory or temporal events that are entirely contextual as if they were specific and freeze-framed moments of absolute objective truth. And then if you throw in the psychological personal perspective twist then we really get crazy interpretations on things...especially regarding notions of social inequality.

Bleeding heart? Hardly...just someone who agrees that "Americanisms" are unwelcome, and that includes the ignorant discourse of personal liberty and rights without an understanding of the transcendental vs. immanent origins of said rights (and reciprocal responsibilities that exist within the identical notion).

I do have a lot of ideas about many of these issues, but...meh, BEER!

I love beer. Drinking Leffe Radieuse at the moment.


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## Lecterfan (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> 'don't be a ****, don't be an arsehole'



HA! I will PM you an amusing story where I invoked this very idea (when I can be bothered). Forget having a ribbon day, or mchappy day or this or that 'day/week/month' which is the equivalent of people turning on their conscience for 24 hours and then returning to consumerism aftewards; just spend 365 days of the year not being a **** and see how the world magically improves...


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## bum (12/2/12)

Lecterfan said:


> (please don't reply with pre-Heidggerian ontology to this comment and expect me to acknowledge it)


And AHB crashes with the sudden rush of users simultaneously hitting the edit button...


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## raven19 (12/2/12)

Lecterfan said:


> I love beer.



Win Lecter.


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

Well, his wish list looks to me the exact things people have lost respect for with things getting easier in life in general.
Let's take a 15-16 year old for example, in ages past, if you quit school early and went into the workforce you could not generally expect to make much of a career that would lead to 'being rich'.
A parent will always be encouraging (and other means) thei kids to study further so they can get ahead in life. And the social strata you ended up in due to your life choices would be greatly linked to you commitment to learning early in life. Always something for the others to desire and want. Targets and goals in modernspeak.
Today, a Kid starting off in KFC or another retail job can afford almost nearly everything they'd want at that stage. How long you save for and wait is much shorter than what it would've been back in some day. The entire modern ethos of standardised wages etc actually destroys the incentive for working harde and smarter. Mind you, these incentives still exist in more professional jobs but considering what you can make in unskilled and semi-unskilled jobs the incentive for working harder actually goes way down. There was a threw a while back about how the quality of tradesmen has nosedived, partly because they make truckloads changing lightbulbs and taps. As I was saying, everything has a follow on effect. In creating the 'fairer', all inclusive society we have today, a lot of considerations for how people behave in reality seem to have been ignored. I'd say we all need a leash, different lengths. I say that as someone that has a major problem in life with rules, I'm always redefining them, sometimes much to the anger of people that find it very annoying to keep up with changes.

All that being said, it was an example. Entropy in itself isn't a force or a cause. It is a symptom of the phenomenon that changes are caused in nature due to things we do and then nature returns the favour.
I'll take Australia's great reliance on mining income atm, putting money into the hands of people downstream from that, in retail, services etc obviously has an effect. If it is no longer a requirement to be a nice person to be able to make more than minimum wage, you raise a generation of pricks.


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## leiothrix (12/2/12)

As far as prices go I think that's a bit of BS. Mainly talking about housing prices -- they used to be around 3x annual wage, now more like 6x or so. 

That's a consequence of women in the workforce and housing prices expanding to fit a couples wages rather than that of one person (and for the record, women are equal, blah, blah, blah), but it makes it pretty hard for one person to buy a house on their own.

The other thing is the standard Socrates quote -- the whole "kids these days" thing. The point is kids are always a PITA, you just forget about what you did growing up when you get old.


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

When I was a kid, my parents could point and say you don't want to end up like that and it had an effect. This is parents that didn't believe in hitting.

Today, smart arse kids come back and tell parents that they can make more money than they do doing less. lots of bad examples and the reasons are not always in control of a parent trying to set their kid right.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

For those who think things are so much worse/different today than they were a generation ago or another one before that etc, just remember that the last century brought us 2 world wars (including the holocaust), the atomic bomb, the cold war, appartheid, the stalinist purges, vietnam and Korean wars, mcCarthayism, widespread environmental destruction, white australia and fascism.

Smacking people and making them join the army ain't going to make humans stop being fuckwits. If the young kids of today are such a problem stop ******* breeding them: especially if you can't be arsed trying to teach them anything (or are incapable of doing so without slapping them upside the head)..


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## bum (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> For those who think things are so much worse/different today than they were a generation ago or another one before that etc, just remember that the last century brought us 2 world wars (including the holocaust), the atomic bomb, the cold war, appartheid, the stalinist purges, vietnam and Korean wars, mcCarthayism, widespread environmental destruction, white australia and fascism.


Twilight.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

Mate, those little bastards have inflicted the wiggles, Rhianna, excessive vocoder use and bad eyebrow acting (aka twilight) on all of us so they don't get away scot free.


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## leiothrix (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> For those who think things are so much worse/different today than they were a generation ago or another one before that etc, just remember that the last century brought us 2 world wars (including the holocaust), the atomic bomb, the cold war, appartheid, the stalinist purges, vietnam and Korean wars, mcCarthayism, widespread environmental destruction, white australia and fascism.




Um, that shit all still happens. We just don't hear about anything unless it involves one of the "good" countries.


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## yardy (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> For those who think things are so much worse/different today than they were a generation ago or another one before that etc, just remember that the last century brought us 2 world wars (including the holocaust), the atomic bomb, the cold war, appartheid, the stalinist purges, vietnam and Korean wars, mcCarthayism, widespread environmental destruction, white australia and fascism.
> 
> Smacking people and making them join the army ain't going to make humans stop being fuckwits. If the young kids of today are such a problem stop ******* breeding them: especially if you can't be arsed trying to teach them anything (or are incapable of doing so without slapping them upside the head)..



how many kids do you have manticle ?


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## manticle (12/2/12)

@leothrix: I know it still happens. That wasn't my point. My point, quite simply is that whinging about the new generations having no respect and believing that national service and corporal punishment is going to make a difference is delusional.

Scroll back and see what I'm responding to.

@Yardy: I don't have any kids. That's a deliberate decision based partly on what I've written above.

If I did have kids, I wouldn't think hitting them and making them do drill is going to replace me taking responsibility for their behaviour which is what is lacking today in parents and why so many kids seem to be such brats.

I was smacked as a kid and I'll guess you were too but that was not what taught me respect and a good work ethic. My understanding of those things came from elsewhere - being smacked just made me scared and confused until I was older and tougher and it no longer hurt. I know people close to me (no need for more detail) who left home as teenagers due to physical abuse. What does that teach? I'm absolutely in favour of discipline and kids learning respect as they seem, in my old man's eyes, to have none. I just don't think you can point to the golden era when they did and say - 'we hit them and made them dress up in khakis and march and that's what's made the difference'.

The difference is people taking responsibility for themselves and having kids requires taking responsibility for them until they are old enough and smart enough to do it themselves (which should have been taught to them during that time).


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## leiothrix (12/2/12)

manticle said:


> I was smacked as a kid and I'll guess you were too but that was not what taught me respect and a good work ethic. My understanding of those things came from elsewhere - being smacked just made me scared and confused until I was older and tougher and it no longer hurt.



I'm sorry if you were abused as a child (that's what it sounds like anyway). A lot of people manage to conflate smacking with abuse though. An open handed slap on the bum today does not generally work its way into a punch in the face tomorrow.

Parents seem to have gone from using a smack on the bum to using nothing as discipline. 

If your kid is running towards a road and you yell "stop" you want them to bloody well stop. They have no idea what a car can do to them, but they do know that a smack on the bum hurts, so they'll stop.

You can't argue with a 2-3 year old. Reasoning doesn't work, because they are not reasonable. The whole point of a smack is that is a reasoned response. If you hit your kids because you are angry or upset, then you are doing it wrong.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

I wasn't what I would call physically abused. Wouldn't want to give that impression. I am close to someone who was and have seen the effects though. Not pleasant.

The discussion was originally about corporal punishment as a means of punishing criminals and seems somehow to have got onto physically punishing kids.

My own belief is that there are some circumstances where a short slap (as you say - very young kid running onto road or eating Cold power or somesuch) may be more effective than anything else. On that point I agree. What I didn't agree with, very simply, was that society would benefit or somehow improve massively from the (re) introduction of corporal punishment and/or conscription.


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## pk.sax (12/2/12)

I got my fair share of whopping from my old man. Nothing I appreciate or think made me any better.

But being held responsible for things I did from an early age does mean that I grew a particular aversion to making compromises, because they come back and bite you on the bum. And it hurts. It doesn't have to be a smack on the bum, when your mum looks at you and tells you she is disappointed that you stuffed up because you were lazy, that is enough. But that parent has to be a great example.

I work with adults, people that have kids, I don't think they are irresponsible or would be bad examples to their kids. But then, you step outside and you do see those as well.


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## browndog (12/2/12)

There is a million miles difference between smacking a child and child abuse, as a loving parent, I will smack my kids so that one day when they are running towards a cliff and I scream out stop, they will listen to me.


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## leiothrix (12/2/12)

Ok manticle, I agree with you entirely.

I do however, love how horrible a communication mechanism the internet is.


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## manticle (12/2/12)

browndog said:


> There is a million miles difference between smacking a child and child abuse,



Of course. The topic was never really about whether a parent should be able to smack their child under certain circumstances although I understand why that is a current issue.

Back track through the thread a bit and see where references to smacking (adults) came up.

@leothrix: I actually love the communication mechanism of the internet because it allows someone to expand on their point. Not everything I write or say is going to be necessarily clear the first time but when asked or questioned or challenged, I can expand or clarify. That's what makes good communication


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## Rina (12/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> Well, his wish list looks to me the exact things people have lost respect for with things getting easier in life in general.
> Let's take a 15-16 year old for example, in ages past, if you quit school early and went into the workforce you could not generally expect to make much of a career that would lead to 'being rich'.
> A parent will always be encouraging (and other means) thei kids to study further so they can get ahead in life. And the social strata you ended up in due to your life choices would be greatly linked to you commitment to learning early in life. Always something for the others to desire and want. Targets and goals in modernspeak.
> Today, a Kid starting off in KFC or another retail job can afford almost nearly everything they'd want at that stage. How long you save for and wait is much shorter than what it would've been back in some day. The entire modern ethos of standardised wages etc actually destroys the incentive for working harde and smarter. Mind you, these incentives still exist in more professional jobs but considering what you can make in unskilled and semi-unskilled jobs the incentive for working harder actually goes way down. There was a threw a while back about how the quality of tradesmen has nosedived, partly because they make truckloads changing lightbulbs and taps. As I was saying, everything has a follow on effect. In creating the 'fairer', all inclusive society we have today, a lot of considerations for how people behave in reality seem to have been ignored. I'd say we all need a leash, different lengths. I say that as someone that has a major problem in life with rules, I'm always redefining them, sometimes much to the anger of people that find it very annoying to keep up with changes.
> ...


Your hypothesis is interesting from a materialist (dare I say Marxist) perspective. Yes the average school leaver (say 16) may be able to afford the luxuries they want but at what cost? A retail or office administration job that has a high degree of alienation from the service they provide as opposed to a few decades ago where they would do a trade where there were higher degrees of 'job satisfaction'. A job where they can pay for all the 'luxuries' in life but not necessarily all the necessities such as housing, food, water, electricity since they still live with their parents due to 'cost of living' pressures. You have to wonder what a prolonged adolescence does to a person. Life simply becomes a race to see who can own the most toys. I know some of these people. You go out to dinner with them and they are the most boring people you will meet. I don't think it is healthy for a person or society. Conversely have you thought about the opposite about what 'standardised wages' bring- professionals such as doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers that work for the prestige and goodwill their job brings rather then just for a pay check.


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## leiothrix (12/2/12)

@Rina -- I'll summarize this by saying that "back in the day" we brought kids up to become adults. Lately we seem to be bringing kids up to be big kids, which doesn't help anyone.

(And yes, i brought up the Socrates quote up earlier, and I'm only 30, but still, kids these days . . .)


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## Rina (13/2/12)

I don't think it's that simple to just lay blame on parents. There are a range of other issues at play as well.


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## Fish13 (13/2/12)

leiothrix said:


> As far as prices go I think that's a bit of BS. Mainly talking about housing prices -- they used to be around 3x annual wage, now more like 6x or so.
> 
> That's a consequence of women in the workforce and housing prices expanding to fit a couples wages rather than that of one person (and for the record, women are equal, blah, blah, blah), but it makes it pretty hard for one person to buy a house on their own.



I blame the mining boom. the real estate agents/land developers being greedy and everyone in sydney selling up to leave NSW to WA becuase they realise that bob carr fucked up big time.


to jump from 150k to 300k in 6 months tells you someone out there made a fuckload and laughed all the way to the bank.


----------

