# Re Used Trub



## fergi (8/2/09)

well guys i have just kegged my coopers pale ale, as usual coopers rehydrated yeast, this time i have dumped a coopers sparkling ale"with bits" onto the trub, i left about 1 litre of the trub in the fermentor and swirled it around gently to mix, added the wort etc, put this into my fermenting fridge @17 deg, now after 30 mins i had 5 ml foam on top and airlock plopping away about 1 per second, i reset my fridgemate back abit to 16 deg to just slow this action down a bit as i can forsee a krausen attack from the fermenter shortly. hope i havent overpitched , this is the first time i have tried this 
cheers fergi


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## unterberg (8/2/09)

Its obviously overpitched. 1 litre of trub could be a lot of yeasties. 
Empty the trub out and just use a smaller amount next time (half a cup is probably still plenty).

For now I think a colder temp is probably a good idea to keep the fermentation down a bit but you probably will have to watch it and maybe even take some krausen off. I dont think there is much else you can do. Open fermentation would probably be ok for the first day and then when its slowed down put the lid on.


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## rclemmett (8/2/09)

I did that once............... It wasn't a good idea. The fermenter tried to walk out of the fridge.

When I did it the fridge wasn't turned on as I had no temp controller, just used ice. When I came back 12 hours later it had gone from 19C to 27C, the ambient temp was 15-19C at the time. Such a vigorous generates alot of heat, so it might be a good idea to back the temp of the fridge down a bit more.


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## Steve (8/2/09)

Unterberg said:


> (half a cup is probably still plenty).



yep - half a cups enough. Better start thinking a blow off tube


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## fergi (8/2/09)

well i have wound the tempmate back to 12 deg, see if that slows them up a bit ,will watch and if ferment starts to slow too much i will up the temp a little , does this overpitch give many undesirable off flavors.
cheers
fergi


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## QldKev (8/2/09)

Unterberg said:


> Its obviously overpitched. 1 litre of trub could be a lot of yeasties.



You will find a lot of seasoned brewers actually pitch straight onto a full yeast cake without any issues. The only thing you should be concerned about is if pitching a different style of brew onto a yeast cake. A Pilsner on a Stout yeast cake may produce unexpected flavours.

QldKev


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## fergi (8/2/09)

QldKev said:


> You will find a lot of seasoned brewers actually pitch straight onto a full yeast cake without any issues. The only thing you should be concerned about is if pitching a different style of brew onto a yeast cake. A Pilsner on a Stout yeast cake may produce unexpected flavours.
> 
> QldKev




no basic same aussie pale ale style kev.
fergi


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## rclemmett (8/2/09)

QldKev said:


> You will find a lot of seasoned brewers actually pitch straight onto a full yeast cake without any issues. The only thing you should be concerned about is if pitching a different style of brew onto a yeast cake. A Pilsner on a Stout yeast cake may produce unexpected flavours.
> 
> QldKev


 


> When you have a large yeast mass on the bottom of the fermentor, you have a large potential for off-flavors due to autolysis.



John Palmer How to brew

Autolysis happens much quicker when you over pitch because your yeast is skipping over the aerobic phase of the yeast life cycle. Fewer new cells are created and your fermentation will not be optimal. You are creating a retirement community of yeast cells. The yeast will not be as healthy and will die sooner. Too much dead yeast creates a really nasty off flavor in your beer.

The one time I pitched onto the yeast cake this happened to me. However, the beer I did fermented out at about 27C which I think was largely to blame.

I would not pitch onto the whole yeast cake again, but thats not to say it doesn't work............


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## thunderchild (8/2/09)

people much cleverer than I pitch onto the yeast cake with no probs. The one warning that hey gave me was to be ableto control temp (I.e fridgemate) otherwise you may have a hollywood blockbuster on your hands. (Attack of the yeastie beastie)


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## raven19 (8/2/09)

I have had good success taking a tablespoon of trub and reusing straight away on hte next batch of wort (appropriate sanitation measures in place of course!).

Doesn't take off too quickly, seems to be just right.

2c.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/2/09)

re-pitching a "similar" strength beer onto a whole yeast cake isn't optimal - oh sure, it works, but its not optimal. As Rob2 said, you need some yeast growth, and in a finished beer of the same strength, there isn't going to be any, there are already enough cells for that amount of that strength beer.... its just that they are tired cells, low on resources, that have just dropped into their dormant phase at the end of a fermentation.

Autolysis will happen more readily, and you wont get the flavour development that you would expect, because a lot of that happens during the yest growth rather than the fermentation stages

Pitch em into a bigger volume or a bigger beer, with some nutrient and some oxygen... they will go back into growth phase, pep themselves up and pop out a bunch of fresh new cells as well, mollifying the effects of overpitching.... but a whole cake would still be too much for _optimum_ growth.

Pitching onto the whole cake for sure works... and it is definitely easy, its not likely to wreck your beer, but IMO its not by any means the "best" way to do it.

I'd go with closer to 500ml of very runny slurry if going form a low OG beer to a high OG beer, and more like 0.5 cup of the slurry if going back into a similar strength beer.

TB


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## KGB (10/2/09)

Yeah, I agree with whats already been said - next time sanitise a schooner and re-use about half the glass full of slurry and it should work well.
Another option I thought was a good idea was to actually bottle your trub and chill it, then if you don't want to start the next brew straight away (or want a different brew next) you've got a supply of yeats ready to pitch. Just pull a stubby from the fridge, let it come to room temp and pitch. Best to use PET bottles in case you have unexpected carbonation results etc.
I know there are a couple of members using variations on this idea, maybe Bribie for one?


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## andrewg1978 (10/2/09)

KGB said:


> Yeah, I agree with whats already been said - next time sanitise a schooner and re-use about half the glass full of slurry and it should work well.
> Another option I thought was a good idea was to actually bottle your trub and chill it, then if you don't want to start the next brew straight away (or want a different brew next) you've got a supply of yeats ready to pitch. Just pull a stubby from the fridge, let it come to room temp and pitch. Best to use PET bottles in case you have unexpected carbonation results etc.
> I know there are a couple of members using variations on this idea, maybe Bribie for one?



I have used as little as 200ml to re-pitch and has worked well. sanitising is the key.


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## fergi (14/2/09)

well this brew has finished, after 3 days, it went from 1050 to 1012, tastes really nice from the test tube so i have dropped it into a cube, i have put it back into fermenting fridge at 2deg, i dont normally chill my beer into secondarys anymore as i usually put them straight into a keg, gas them for a week and they turn out fine,this time i am keen to try this way so i am thinking of leaving it in there for 3 to 4 days then kegging, whats the general opinion on this idea, i do like my pale ales though to have that cloudy look and i think it has a nutty flavor with a bit of yeast in it.

cheers
fergi


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## QIK86 (14/2/09)

Is the yeast trub still reusable when full of particles from hop pellets? Would the hop flavour and aroma then be noticable in the next brew?


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## buttersd70 (14/2/09)

fergi said:


> well this brew has finished, after 3 days, it went from 1050 to 1012, tastes really nice from the test tube so i have dropped it into a cube, i have put it back into fermenting fridge at 2deg, i dont normally chill my beer into secondarys anymore as i usually put them straight into a keg, gas them for a week and they turn out fine,this time i am keen to try this way so i am thinking of leaving it in there for 3 to 4 days then kegging, whats the general opinion on this idea, i do like my pale ales though to have that cloudy look and i think it has a nutty flavor with a bit of yeast in it.
> 
> cheers
> fergi



Normally, I rack to cube, fine with geletine, leave 3-4 days then keg. However, I like clear beer. For cloudy beer...may as well go straight to keg. Going to the cube is done for 2 reasons, to aid it dropping the yeast out, or to give it some age and condition. The first isn't needed in your case, and the second can be done in the keg anyway (if you have the keg space).


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## Bribie G (14/2/09)

I regularly use some of the yeast cake to start the next brew, but don't pitch directly onto the old cake. I much prefer to clean and sanitise the fermenter and tap first. As I often dry hop, the fermenter is an ugly looking crime scene after the primary fermentation.


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## David Sinclair (14/2/09)

This is a little OT but can you re-use the yeast cake after using geletine or does geltine render the yeast useless?


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## neonmeate (14/2/09)

sorry to nitpick but a lot of you seem to be using the word "trub" to mean yeast cake, or slurry - trub is not yeast, it is the protein and fats and crap that's come out in the hot and cold break that you certainly *don't* want to repitch

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b....2/barchet.html
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-8.html

best way to reuse yeast is to scoop up all the active yeast off the top when it is at high krauesen.


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## Cube (15/2/09)

QIK86 said:


> Is the yeast trub still reusable when full of particles from hop pellets? Would the hop flavour and aroma then be noticable in the next brew?



I do this every brew. I have never had any adverse or wrong hop flavours. I only use 1/2 cup of yeast cake per brew, which is generally a total of half of one brew yeast cake.

I've had yeast cake in the fridge for 4 weeks, even more, and it still goes off within 18 hours of pitching directly into fermenter.

The last packet of US05 I bought was October last year if I'm not mistaken. I'm almost at the end of the generation cycle now with two pitches left to bring it up to the sixth generation.. Now that's economy. Each whole yeast cake gets split into two, then two again after next brew and so on until I hit 6. So that's 12 or more brews from one packet of US05.

I'm going to use coopers ale yeast next time and re use that in the same manner. I'm hoping for good results since I brew mostly pale ales. Good excuse to grab a couple of tallies as well.


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## buttersd70 (15/2/09)

Cube said:


> The last packet of US05 I bought was October last year if I'm not mistaken. I'm almost at the end of the generation cycle now with two pitches left to bring it up to the sixth generation.. Now that's economy. Each whole yeast cake gets split into two, then two again after next brew and so on until I hit 6. So that's 12 or more brews from one packet of US05.



If you top crop as well, you can get 2 from the top _and _2 from the bottom. Now _thats _economy.  1>4>16>64>256>1024=1365 batches.  A bit of a ridiculous example, in a way. By the time you got around to using anywhere near that much yeast, the viability would be seriously compromised due to the length of the storage. But yes, reusing yeast is definately economical. Personally, I repitch probably 3 to 4 times...I normally reserve only enough from each batch for 2 new ones, but you can get more. so thats still 1>2>4>8=15 batches. Which is cheap, even for a liquid yeast. Now that I slant, I wouldn't even bother with that...just the first pitch (after reslanting from it), reserve enough for 2 more, then toss the lot, and start again. The possibilities are endless.


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## big78sam (14/3/09)

OK so I have ANOTHER noob question. Butters, fergi etc are probably getting sick of answering my questions by now...

I recently did a pale ale with recultured coopers yeast and will rack off to a second fermenter today. I want to reuse the yeast cake and wanted to make sure the following is correct. 

Sterilize a pet bottle
swirl the yeast cake (I dry hopped without a bag so just threw 5-10 grams of hops straight into the fermenter so I guess I'll have hops mized in with the yeast cake) and remaining litre or so of liquid around so I have a "slurry" (I guess this is what "slurry" means")
Pick up 300ml of the slurry with the PET bottle, seal and put into the fridge
Pitch this straight into the fermenter, after allowing to come back up to room temp, when my next batch is ready to go
Do I have to reculture with a LDME/water mixture before pitching next time? How long will this last in the fridge? Does the fermentation have to have completely finished before I bottle the yeast cake?


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## Alby (16/3/09)

any answers for big Sam?..im interested in this too as having just got myself a fermentation fridge Im keen to take the next step and move beyond the kit yeasts (which get savaged on this forum) and see if I can notice a marked improvement...but I have never re-used a yeast before...always sprinkled a fresh packet. Whats the EASIEST way to do this...KISS, baby steps for me!


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## flattop (16/3/09)

Thats the guts of it Sam, I usually use a 2 litre pet, stick the slurry in it (around a litre) and bang it in the fridge overnight, drain off the lighter liquid (around 500-600mls). Occasionally i downsize to a 1 litre pet as a medium step and add sterile water band in the fridge overnight, drain again then swill the rest of the yeast into a couple of stubbies top with sterile water and cap.
Brew day, bring to room temp and open (beware, if you bottle with too much beer they can gush). 
I usually drain excess liquid before i pitch but i have pitched the whole thing sometimes.
Must you add ldme before pitching? No. 
Can you? yes, some say it is too much culture shock (sic), i don't bother, the yeasty beasties are already awake at room temp and there is plenty of sugar in the fermenter.

How long will a culture last? months. Obviously the older they are the more they die off but up to 3 months is ok, personally mine rarely stay in the fridge that long.

Look at the end of the day if you want simple then pitch the yeast straight on the next brew.
Harvest the trub in a PET, wash and sterilize your fermenter and gear, prepare your new wort and throw the yeast in.
1) go from dark to light with trub, not vice versa
2) if you are pitching in the next few days i wouldn't bother transferring to stubbies just use pets and pour off the excess liquid.


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## clarkey7 (29/6/09)

BribieG said:


> I regularly use some of the yeast cake to start the next brew, but don't pitch directly onto the old cake. I much prefer to clean and sanitise the fermenter and tap first. As I often dry hop, the fermenter is an ugly looking crime scene after the primary fermentation.


Hi All,

I'm was planning on dumping my whole batch straight onto the previous one's yeast cake.....
I have done this before with success (had to fit a blow-off tube and turn fridge down a bit....and clean a bit of a mess up)......but the beer was great.

I have searched previous yeasty threads for the pearls of wisdom (there are plenty), but I have an unanswered question in my head.

Problem: this time the 1st beer is a violent fermentation....There is a large krausen ring around the top of the fermentor.

I'm worried that all this crud will end in the second beer........creating an off flavour.

Question: Has anyone had issues with this is the past?

I probably need most of the yeast cake as the 2nd beer is a 8% Dark Strong Belgian (Wyeast 1762 Belgain Abbey II)

I'm now thinking of doing what you describe Bribie..

Does this sound anout right? :unsure: 

Sanitise new fermenter, rack off 1st beer to keg, tip cake from 1st beer into bottom of sanitised fermenter - while attempting to leave behind trub, vigorously pour 2nd beer on top of transfered cake to oxygenate and then seal her up. 
All the usual precautions (blow off tube, set fridge to lower end of yeasts happy zone, keep a watchful eye etc..)

Cheers for any suggestions,

PB :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (29/6/09)

I will be doing just that tomorrow. I have a Pale Ale made on Coopers bottle yeast that I'm going to keg and an Aussie Old in the cube ready to go.
When you get the beer off the yeast, check and see whether the sediment is sloppy or 'curdled' into a stiff cake. If the latter then have a kettle of boiled then cooled water handy to pour in and stir cake with a sterilized spoon into a liquid slurry and pitch that.
I don't know if I'd go the whole cake, about a third will do me. Also if you pour from fermenter 1 into fermenter 2 you probably only get about half of it anyway.


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## clarkey7 (29/6/09)

BribieG said:


> I will be doing just that tomorrow. I have a Pale Ale made on Coopers bottle yeast that I'm going to keg and an Aussie Old in the cube ready to go.
> When you get the beer off the yeast, check and see whether the sediment is sloppy or 'curdled' into a stiff cake. If the latter then have a kettle of boiled then cooled water handy to pour in and stir cake with a sterilized spoon into a liquid slurry and pitch that.
> I don't know if I'd go the whole cake, about a third will do me. Also if you pour from fermenter 1 into fermenter 2 you probably only get about half of it anyway.


Thanks Bribie,

Yeah, I know I'm not supposed to overpitch......but the yeast is going to have a hard time chewing through the next wort. I want it to get the job done.

Half is probably about right to allow some growth before the explosion...so I'll go for that.

PB :beer:


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## Bribie G (29/6/09)

Pocket Beers said:


> .................I want it to get the job done.
> 
> ...........................
> 
> PB :beer:



Same here, like before the fourth week in July


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## clarkey7 (29/6/09)

BribieG said:


> Same here, like before the fourth week in July


Yep Bribie. The comp is good motivation, but I meant to complete attenuation of such a big beer. At least that's the story I'm sticking too.  

Update - I just checked on the first beer and yeast was leaping out of the airlock...  

Just fitted a blow-off tube into a jug of santiser.....

One is attempting to imagine what would happen if I just pitched the next beer straight on top........

Kaboom......View attachment kaboom.bmp


PB


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## raven19 (29/6/09)

PB, In your case definately clean the fermentor, and I think you will find a small amount (a few tablespoons to half a cup) of trub will be more than enough to get it going in time. You want the yeast to grow and multiply before going into full on fermentation mode.

You can always go to a darker style wort/beer with your reused yeast.

Go for it and post results and your thoughts when ready to drink! :icon_cheers:


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## DR.RELAX (30/6/09)

hi all,

wow i think ive been doing things a bit wrong cos i always pitch onto the full yeastcake,no cleaning ,just one old out, new one in and i have noticed on a couple of my bigger beers(usually pitched on the 3rd cake) a bit of a funny taste.i dont think its an infection,no bitter or sour flavours but theres something going on .. possibly autolysis??

can anyone describe the off flavours autolysis gives?

rob


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## felten (30/6/09)

doesn't exactly describe them, but it sounds nasty 

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-3.html


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## db73 (3/7/09)

raven19 said:


> PB, In your case definately clean the fermentor, and I think you will find a small amount (a few tablespoons to half a cup) of trub will be more than enough to get it going in time. You want the yeast to grow and multiply before going into full on fermentation mode.



Interesting. I have also just put a coopers pale ale made with recultured yeast from coopers stubbies, to keg. I have saved the slurry (probably about a stubbie full) from the bottom and put it into a pet bottle into the fridge two days ago. Now there is about an inch of wort/beer on top of the slurry. Would it be ok to tip the wort/beer from the top out and use about half the slurry to pitch into my next CPA, saving the other half for my next brew or should I be doing something else?

Thanks

Dave


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## pmolou (3/7/09)

iv just skim read the whole thread but i kinda like the idea of re-pitching onto the whole yeast cake multiple times and seeing if my yeast gets a 'house character' going to try it for at least 6 times


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## clarkey7 (5/7/09)

raven19 said:


> PB, In your case definately clean the fermentor, and I think you will find a small amount (a few tablespoons to half a cup) of trub will be more than enough to get it going in time. You want the yeast to grow and multiply before going into full on fermentation mode.
> 
> You can always go to a darker style wort/beer with your reused yeast.
> 
> Go for it and post results and your thoughts when ready to drink! :icon_cheers:


Drinking the 1st beer now (crash chilled a bottle outta fermeter and force carbonated)...very happy with how it tastes and smells.  

Used half the cake in the sanitised fermenter with the next beer.

Will let you know in 10 days or so how that one tastes...Hopefully I won't be posting a picture of my fermentation fridge missing a door tomorrow  

PB


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## clarkey7 (22/7/09)

Results:

In this instance with a healthy #1 fermentation, half the yeast cake was too much (cleaning up wise anyway) - even for a 1071 OG beer.

I awoke one morning to a yeasty smell coming from the garage......there was a pool of yeast outside the fridge door.  The blow-off tube had blown out of the jug and was squirting yeast everywhere.

Quite a mess.

I had to empty yeast out of the jug of sanitiser 4 times over the next 3 days.....

Long story, but final #2 Beer was bloody fantastic........conditioned and tasting good now.

PB :beerbang:


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