# Little Creatures Pa



## hockadays (23/11/05)

Hi folks just drank a few LCPA last night and I noticed a distinct Lichi flavour and I'm trying to work out what it's from. Could it be from the primary yeast strain or even the bottling strain or do they add Lichi flavour to the brew. Having a look at the wyeast page I can only find the 3638 Bavarian Wheat yeast to give a lichi flavour. Has any one got any ideas?? or used this yeast??

Matt


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## Gough (23/11/05)

G'day Matt,

I reckon if you did a search on LCPA on this site you computer would melt :lol: There has been more written about this beer than just about any other on AHB going back quite awhile. 

Nonetheless, my personal opinion is that it is the combination of hops moreso than the yeast that is giving the fruit aromas you speak of. My understanding is that the fresh Cascade and Chinook flowers that they use late and via the hopback is what gives it the hop aroma/flavour kick that LCPA fans (like me  ) love. Yeast may be a factor though, but I reckon what you are noticing is the fresh hop aroma.

My $0.02

Shawn.


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## T.D. (23/11/05)

I highly doubt LCPA uses this yeast. They probably use something more like WLP001 California Ale. My guess is that the flavours you are tasting are most likely derived from the hops. LCPA uses both Cascade and Chinook for flavour/aroma, and Goldings (I think) for bittering. I have heard various American hops being described as having lichi flavours before. Personally, I have only ever eaten one or two lichis in my whole life so I am not the best person to comment! :blink: But Cascade definitely has some tropical fruit flavours, and I think Chinook (if used in the right way) has similar flavours also.

I'd say you are tasting more the hops rather than the yeast. Just jam a truckload of cascade in to your next pale ale late in the boil (or dry hop/hop tea, depending on whether your brewing method) and you'll get similar flavours. :beer:


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## hockadays (23/11/05)

Thanks guys

Looks as though I was wandering down the wrong path..

Matt


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## devo (23/11/05)

agree  

I think it's the hops that you tasting. I attempted an AG clone using a wyeast american ale yeast, bittered with chinooks and dry hopped with cascade. It didn't really turn out like a LC PA but I ended up with a different but exceptionally good american style pale ale that I will be making again.


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## T.D. (23/11/05)

Devo, how did you find the Chinook for bittering? I am thinking of trying these hops at some stage soon (probably in an American IPA).


Sorry for the slight thread hyjack. h34r: 

I made an APA from Amarillo hops a few month back and it came out beautifully - overflowing with those tropical fruit flavours! The recipe was something like this:

4.5kg JW Ale malt
200g JW Dark Crystal malt
POR for bittering (to around 40 IBUs - was only about 10g though from memory)
30g Amarillo @ 20 mins
30g Amarillo @ 10 mins
60g Amarillo @ flameout
Safale S04

It was similar to LCPA but not really close enough to call a clone. Just as happy drinking either one though!


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## devo (23/11/05)

T.D. said:


> Devo, how did you find the Chinook for bittering? I am thinking of trying these hops at some stage soon (probably in an American IPA).
> 
> 
> Sorry for the slight thread hyjack. h34r:
> ...




If my memory serves me correct I think I got em here at: http://www.ubrew.com.au


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## Weizguy (23/11/05)

my 2 cents...

I actually bought some LCPA recently. I know it's extaravagant, but I got a $50 voucher.

Anyway, I reckon I can detect the Chinook (bigtime) in the flavour and taste.

If I was gonna try and copy it, I'd be adding some Chinook in dry hop as well as late in the boil. Worth a try!

Seth


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## devo (23/11/05)

I'm still experimenting with the chinnok aromatic/flavour profile. I've only used 20gms for dry hopping but will need to up it a bit more because it's still not coming through as much as I would like.


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## Boozy the clown (23/11/05)

Hey Devo, where did you find that avatar?


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## devo (23/11/05)

can't quite remember. stumbling about drunk on the web no doubt?


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## T.D. (23/11/05)

devo said:


> I'm still experimenting with the chinnok aromatic/flavour profile. I've only used 20gms for dry hopping but will need to up it a bit more because it's still not coming through as much as I would like.
> [post="92751"][/post]​



I haven't used Chinook before, but from all the stories I got the impression that you have to watch over-using it. Its interesting to hear that you will boost the quantities a bit next time. I love my hops (especially American varieties) so when I finally get around to ordering some Chinook, I definitely want to taste it. Would you happily use it in the same sort of quantities in an APA as cascade for instance? As in, do you think it could be substituted in place of cascade entirely? I'm just trying to get an idea of how "overpowering" and potent this variety really is.


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## jimmyjack (23/11/05)

I may be crazy but i actually taste white labs 051 in Little Creature. I have used this yeast three times and to me it comes across like passionfruit or lychee similar to LC. It probably is 1056 with mostly hops coming across as you guys suggest. Still It would be interesting to do a side by side with these two yeasts.


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## Jazman (23/11/05)

i reckon chinook belongs in the bin


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## T.D. (23/11/05)

Why's that Jazman? Certainly seems like a hop variety that people either love or hate...

I have also been tossing up the option of Simcoe. Never tried it either. Its a similar aa% to Chinook, and seems a little more "stable" from the reports I have heard.

Apologies again for the hyjack  , but I guess this is _sort of_ relevant to a discussion of LCPA flavours...


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## Jazman (23/11/05)

simcoe is good and not as harsh or dominant as i hear but i have good results using New Zealand's high alpha hops like southern cross,or the funky nelson sauvin


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## wee stu (23/11/05)

T.D. said:


> Devo, how did you find the Chinook for bittering? I am thinking of trying these hops at some stage soon (probably in an American IPA).
> 
> 
> Sorry for the slight thread hyjack. h34r:
> ...



I think in this case it is definitely the hops giving it the tropical fruit flavours. 

Tropical is about the most common word I have heard in relation to amarillo.

My first amarillo brew (35g at flameout, in an otherwise classic English bitter) is just about ready for racking to cc. Looking forward to how this one turns out for the summer. 

Thanks to Aaron for the hops, btw.

Hope that supporting a hijack thread doesn't amount to a thread derailment. But, as has been perhaps implied already, there is plenty on thread LCPA discussion elsewhere on this board.

11 minutes to midnite h34r: 

awrabest, stu


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## Mr Bond (23/11/05)

Did a small partial as an experiment a while [email protected] min,[email protected],[email protected] min&flame out(1 gram per litre)
US 56 yeast.
Sensational.


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## Jazzafish (23/11/05)

At a tasting the Little Creatures rep mentoned it was a cascade flower added late...

doesn't mean it is right though. I guess the LCPA is a flavour I haven't stepped up to yet, a bit too much when I tried it... still loving the malt domination beers. But saying that, my brews IBU's are creeping up over time. I dare say I'd be into it one day


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## PJO (23/11/05)

hockadays said:


> Hi folks just drank a few LCPA last night and I noticed a distinct Lichi flavour and I'm trying to work out what it's from. Could it be from the primary yeast strain or even the bottling strain or do they add Lichi flavour to the brew. Having a look at the wyeast page I can only find the 3638 Bavarian Wheat yeast to give a lichi flavour. Has any one got any ideas?? or used this yeast??
> 
> Matt
> [post="92643"][/post]​



I have used this yeast to brew a few beers lately and although it has some nice estery flavours, I definitlely DO NOT think that it is used for LCPA (sorry for the yelling). This yeast produces some really good clean clove flavours which are not in LCPA.

I reckon the brewers extract those nice flavours by running the hot wort through a hop back stuffed with fresh Cascade hop flowers ^_^.

Cheers,
PJO


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## MHB (24/11/05)

LCPA has to be one of my favourite beers. I am assured that LC are using fresh Cascade and Chinook flowers in a hop back. We are recommending 15g of Chinook and 25 g of Cascade, for a taste addition and the other dry hoped in the rack. The results are outstanding.

The dried version of the American ale yeast (US-56) with the above hop combo goes into one of my best selling recipes; people keep coming back for more, so it must be hitting the spot.

Good Brewing
MHB


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## T.D. (24/11/05)

Jazzafish said:


> At a tasting the Little Creatures rep mentoned it was a cascade flower added late...
> 
> doesn't mean it is right though. I guess the LCPA is a flavour I haven't stepped up to yet, a bit too much when I tried it... still loving the malt domination beers. But saying that, my brews IBU's are creeping up over time. I dare say I'd be into it one day
> [post="92871"][/post]​



I'll give you less than 3 more brews Jazza, and I reckon people will have to pry you off those American hops! I reckon they are great. I mean there is a time and a place for UK and European varieties, no doubt about it, but I have certainly gravitated to American varieties over the past 6 months (for ales I mean). For me, my tastes started to change after visiting Canada last Christmas and trying some of those beautiful North American micro brews. 

And also, re the cascade added late with LCPA, its probably not wrong depending on how you interpret it, but I know they use both cascade and chinook in the hopback (as most people have mentioned here). What I don't know is whether they have hop additions late in the boil AS WELL AS the hopback. The most detail I have heard about the hopping of LCPA is that they use goldings for bittering (to around 35 IBUs) and imported cascade and chinook flowers in the hopback. That was more or less from the (alleged) horse's mouth.


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## shmick (24/11/05)

The 1056 (US-56) can get citrus like flavours when fermented cool but I've found it usually fades after a month or so conditioning.
I doubt a commercial brewery would muck around fermenting at a yeast's lower range as it would take too long.

I've acheived a slight citrus note in the past with Northern Brewer at 5 min and flameout but it was in a malty Strong Ale and was hard to pick. :chug:

My votes on the hops


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## Lindsay Dive (24/11/05)

I made a clone of the LCPA about four years ago. It was spot on the money (Wes Smith & Phil Yates can vouch for that) and I used the New Zealand Cascade Hop Cones @ 8.6% AA.
I can't find the recipe at the moment (prior to the use of Promash) but I can clearly remember that I used the Whitelabs (WLP023) Burton Ale Yeast. I also remember chucking a whole heap of the flowers into the secondary and left them there for about 3 weeks prior to bottling.
The problem I find using Cascade Cones is the lack of consistency with the flavour profile you need.
The last time I made a LCPA clone using the same yeast, NZ Cascade Cones (different year to the first used) the beer had a distinct grassy flavour. The difference between the two beers was amazing, so much so that I haven't tried to copy this beer since.
Time heals most wounds so I guess I'll have to brew another in the near future.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (24/11/05)

Not that I am trying to copy LCPA.
I always find I get a great aroma with 20 grams of dry hopped Cascade pellets in my APA's.

I also love Simcoe as the bittering hop. 

C&B
TDA


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## colinw (24/11/05)

A big thumbs up from me for Chinook mixed with Amarillo for flavour & aroma.

Having used Amarillo I don't think I'll go back to Cascade. In the past I've had mixed results with Cascade. Sometimes it is superb and other times it seems kind of grassy, must depend on the freshess. Its been erratic enough that I'm hesitant to brew with it.

My most recent APA was Amarillo & Chinook only, with 20g of Amarillo & Chinook each at 1 minute, then 40g of Amarillo & 20g of Chinook a couple of minutes after strikeout. That was in a 42-litre batch (full recipe on 1st page of this newsletter). For my tastes, about that proportion seems to hit the right balance between the "tropical punch" effect of the Amarillo and the clean pungent grapefruit of the Chinook. I'd say it is the Chinook in the hopback which gives that "special something" to LCPA, without it (if you just used Cascade or Amarillo) you would still have a nice beer but it wouldn't have that crisp citrus bite in the aroma & flavour.

cheers,
Colin


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## Lindsay Dive (24/11/05)

colinw said:


> A big thumbs up from me for Chinook mixed with Amarillo for flavour & aroma.
> 
> Having used Amarillo I don't think I'll go back to Cascade. In the past I've had mixed results with Cascade. Sometimes it is superb and other times it seems kind of grassy, must depend on the freshess. Its been erratic enough that I'm hesitant to brew with it.
> 
> ...



Colin, where did you get the Amarillo and Chinook Hops from? You've got me interested!

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## colinw (24/11/05)

Bought them from Brew Your Own At Home in Canberra - Simcoe as well.

More recently one of our club members has brought some pellets in direct from the US.


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## Lindsay Dive (24/11/05)

Thanks Colin,
Rang up and ordered the last of the Amarillo (100gms) and 200 grams of the Chinook. I'm all eager now to make a nice APA.
Brilliant...thanks.

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## colinw (24/11/05)

Prepare to be stunned by one of the most glorious aroma & flavour hops around! You'll be drinking all your hydrometer samples of this one.


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## tangent (24/11/05)

you know it's gonna be a good beer when you're skolling hydrometer samples


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## Jazzafish (8/12/05)

> QUOTE(Jazzafish @ Nov 23 2005, 10:32 PM)
> At a tasting the Little Creatures rep mentoned it was a cascade flower added late...
> 
> doesn't mean it is right though. I guess the LCPA is a flavour I haven't stepped up to yet, a bit too much when I tried it... still loving the malt domination beers. But saying that, my brews IBU's are creeping up over time. I dare say I'd be into it one day
> ...



LOL,

it only took me 2 brews! Had it last night and loved it. Going to make something like it asap! Might try a recipe clone posted in here somewhere


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## T.D. (8/12/05)

Haha, good to hear Jazza!

I brewed an APA with Amarillo hops a while back and it was bloody great. Not quite as "over the top" hoppy as LCPA but definitely a whole bunch of hop flavour and aroma. Amarillo still seems to be as rare as hens' teeth so future efforts (for the mean time) will have to use Cascade instead, which is not really much of a consolation...

Anyway, I reckon APAs have probably been the style I have brewed most of, and slowly but surely I think I am starting to get an idea of what works and what doesn't. Anyway, I reckon something like the following recipe would be a damned tasty brew:

For batch size of 25L
95% Ale malt
5% Crystal malt
Northern Brewer (to ~ 35 IBUs)
30g Cascade @ 15 mins
30g Cascade @ 5 mins
60g Cascade @ flameout
Target OG: 1.050

So simple, but I reckon that could be a winner - it is very similar to the Amarillo brew I mentioned above, but with Cascade instead.

Good luck with it mate!


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## yardy (27/10/06)

Lindsay Dive said:


> I made a clone of the LCPA about four years ago. It was spot on the money (Wes Smith & Phil Yates can vouch for that) and I used the New Zealand Cascade Hop Cones @ 8.6% AA.
> I can't find the recipe at the moment (prior to the use of Promash) but I can clearly remember that I used the Whitelabs (WLP023) Burton Ale Yeast. I also remember chucking a whole heap of the flowers into the secondary and left them there for about 3 weeks prior to bottling.





Gday Lindsay, 

did you ever locate that recipe ?

cheers

Yard



EDIT:
nevermind, i found the SFPA thread.

cheers

yard


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## devo (1/11/06)

I was heading over to my sister in laws place last night for a free feed and thought I'd stop into the drive thru to pick up some brews and found these Little Creatures Pale Ales in "pint size" stubbies. 

Me thinks I'll be keeping the empties for my own brews.  

View attachment 9788


Anyone else come across these at all?


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## Weizguy (1/11/06)

I've seen these bottles. Apparently available at Dan Murphy's (no affiliation) and other places.

Is it just my cynical mind, but is LC aiming at the market that Coopers currently has for beer in homebrewer-friendly bottles?

Good on 'em, either way!

Seth


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## Wardhog (8/11/06)

My first unhopped extract brew was an APA with Chinook & Cascade, and I love it. 

3kg Light LME
200g Medium Crystal
10g Chinook @60
15g Cascade @30
15g Cascade @5
US-56
To 23 Litres

Is by far the best beer I've brewed. 

Going on hydrometer sample tasting, got another batch exactly the same on.


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## Simon W (8/11/06)

devo said:


> Anyone else come across these at all?



Nup, but I'd heard rumours.
Now I've seen a pic I'm on the hunt!
yeehaa!


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## colinw (8/11/06)

First Choice liquor at the Newnham Hotel on the Brisbane south side has these bottles.


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## Dunkel_Boy (8/11/06)

I have a feeling my house brew will end up something like...

1.5kg extra pale LME
2.5kg MO
300g caramunich III

30IBU worth of First Gold

US-56



LCPA I think is a fantastic beer, but moreso because it inspires me to throw around a lot of hops with the same malt/yeast background, and see what I come up with. And then settle down with a beer that's... what's that word... bal... bala.... balanced. That's the word.


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## devo (1/12/06)

I'm having LCPA served up to my guests at my wedding reception tomorrow night, woo hoo


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## Stuster (1/12/06)

Congratulations, devo. Nice beer.  

But really, have a great day. :beer:


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## Adamt (1/12/06)

Expensive! But well worth it  Congrats!


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## winkle (1/12/06)

Congrats, have a good one :beer: You'll probably upset the VB drinkers though.


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## therook (1/12/06)

I did start a topic about Devo's wedding in the "OFF TOPIC" section but unfortunatly that section doesn't show the postings as a thread  

rook


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## shotduck (1/12/06)

As for the yeast used in LCPA... what makes you all think they don't just use a plain old dried generic, like 514? I know of a few micros that use 514 exclusively as their stock yeast. It's a proven, neutral yeast that costs 3/10's of stuff all.



Cheers,
TSD


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## sinkas (1/12/06)

A certian provider of yeast and yeast related products gave the low down earlier this year.


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## ausdb (1/12/06)

sinkas said:


> A certian provider of yeast and yeast related products gave the low down earlier this year.



Goes something along the lines of 001 I think!


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## devo (1/12/06)

winkle said:


> Congrats, have a good one :beer: You'll probably upset the VB drinkers though.



HAHA that's the plan on both fronts


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## shotduck (1/12/06)

sinkas said:


> A certian provider of yeast and yeast related products gave the low down earlier this year.





ausdb said:


> Goes something along the lines of 001 I think!


Sweet. Nice to hear a reference rather than the typical conjecture that usually gets thrown about. Thanks for that.

Cheers,
TSD


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## ausdb (1/12/06)

The Shot Duck said:


> sinkas said:
> 
> 
> > A certian provider of yeast and yeast related products gave the low down earlier this year.
> ...



It basically went along the lines of "we ship a lot of this there frequently"


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