# AHB Wiki: Balancing A Draught System



## delboy

This is the discussion topic for article: Balancing A Draught System


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## delboy

kushti what did i do opps 
any way this is a great artical and hats off to the auther.
10/10

delboy


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## Cortez The Killer

Might be worth listing metric resistances some where in the article for 4 + 5 + 6 mm

Cheers


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## ntboozer

Noticed the large 'stick on' thermometers on the sides of your kegs.
I've used the search engine but can't locate anything.
Where did you get them?
cheers
nt
:beer:


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## Kingy

craftbrewer.com


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## lucas

ok, so I've got ~3M of 5mm CobraPlus+ line between the keg and the tap, my fridge is at 5 degrees and the pressure is at about 100kpa. the tap is mounted a few inches higher than the top of the keg.

keg was partially carbed via "the ross method", and the gas has been on 100kpa since then. it poured fine the first two days but since day 3 I've poured nothing but foam. looking at the line it's full of beer (no bubbles) so I'm guessing that something is going wrong in the tap. I've tried both dropping the serving pressure (even with the gas fully off and the head pressure purged) and raising the serving pressure but I still get all foam.

Any advice what to try next? I hadnt thought it could be overcarbonated, but I just looked at the numbers in my brewing software and it says 2.6 volumes which is much higher than I thought it should be. I thought I'd worked it out previously and it wasnt so high but I guess I was thinking of something else


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## Ross

Lucas 100kpa is too high, 70kpa max. Your beer has just become overcarbonated. there is no gas in the line as it's in balance with the 100kpa pouring pressure.
time to open up the relief valve & give it a gentle shake - will probably take a day or 2 to come right.

cheers Ross

edit: & thanks for your ahb search plugin, top work, works great :super:


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## lucas

ok, the kegs out of the fridge to warm up a bit and try and fix this. finally got my chest freezer + new tap up and running so I was expecting a few teething issues

no worries re: the search plugin. I'm glad people other than me are finding it useful


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## facter

Okay ...

I have no idea what I'm doing now 

I finally got my tap font installed that I bought from Craftbrewer ... I cant get the thing to pour any beer without it foaming .. and thats a waste of good Nelson ale!

Beer was force-carbed about four hours ago to 160 ... then sat around for a few hours settling ... I've tried pouring from pressures of anywhere between 70 and 130 - and still cant get it to pour properly. neer had this problem with my gun, which is now thankfully retired outside of parties ...but i just am not sure at all what I am doing. Fridge is at about 2c .. the line is the same length that was attached to the font (looks about 2 meters or so).


Any ideas?


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## BenH

Ross said:


> 100kpa is too high, 70kpa max.



Ross, I don't understand. 70kpa will only give 2.4 volumes at 4 degrees. This is too low for beer styles like lagers. Are you saying its overcarbonated, or that the beer line isn't long enough to sufficiently bring the pressure down at the tap?

I have my system balanced at 105kpa to give 2.8 volumes, and it pours fine. I have 2 lines of 5m of 4mmID line, one with a pluto gun and another with a party tap. The party tap pours slower than the pluto gun, but unless I've had too many  and do a sloppy pour, it's all good.


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## BenH

facter said:


> Any ideas?



facter, have you changed the length of your lines?

Or, is your font & tap warm initially, and causing the foaming? You probably wouldn't have had that problem with the gun as the gun would have been kept in the fridge.

This is one of the reasons I'll be going for a flooded font... when I work out how I want my bar set up.


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## Kingy

if you want a gassier beer you need to lengthen your beerlines to accomodate when you rise the kpa pressure this is so the beer pours slower and doesnt foam up.

If your beer is foaming up reduce the pressure or personally id rather keep the pressure the same and just extend the lines as i like my beer gassy.


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## Ross

BenH said:


> Ross, I don't understand. 70kpa will only give 2.4 volumes at 4 degrees. This is too low for beer styles like lagers. Are you saying its overcarbonated, or that the beer line isn't long enough to sufficiently bring the pressure down at the tap?
> 
> I have my system balanced at 105kpa to give 2.8 volumes, and it pours fine. I have 2 lines of 5m of 4mmID line, one with a pluto gun and another with a party tap. The party tap pours slower than the pluto gun, but unless I've had too many  and do a sloppy pour, it's all good.



Ben, 

i was responding to Lucas's question where he stated all was fine for a few days, but then went haywire. He also said 2.6 volumes was too high for what he wanted, unless i misunderstood. Sure, if he wants lagers then line length needs to be lengthened & the whole system brought back into balance, but for ales he needs lower pressure to bring his system back into balance.
i have my system set on 70kpa for ales & 110kpa for lagers, with the appropriate line length to each.
i tend to slightly under carbonate my beers these days by the quick carb method & then let them come into perfect balance over a few days connected to my system, as an overcarbed beer takes forever to get back into balance once connected. 

Cheers Ross

cheers Ross


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## facter

BenH said:


> facter, have you changed the length of your lines?
> 
> Or, is your font & tap warm initially, and causing the foaming? You probably wouldn't have had that problem with the gun as the gun would have been kept in the fridge.
> 
> This is one of the reasons I'll be going for a flooded font... when I work out how I want my bar set up.




.. no, i havnt changed the length of my lines. mind you, this is the very firt time that I have even used my new tapfont, I literaly jsut finished installing it this week so I've never used one before ... Im using the exact length that was provided to me (the font came with line) so im presuming that this was the correct length ...

both of ym beers should be around the 160 mark ... it has a split gas line running into both of them .. just cant get the thing to pour without foaming. hrmph.


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## Ross

facter said:


> .. no, i havnt changed the length of my lines. mind you, this is the very firt time that I have even used my new tapfont, I literaly jsut finished installing it this week so I've never used one before ... Im using the exact length that was provided to me (the font came with line) so im presuming that this was the correct length ...
> 
> both of ym beers should be around the 160 mark ... it has a split gas line running into both of them .. just cant get the thing to pour without foaming. hrmph.



Facter,

If you've carbonated your beers to saturation at 160 kpa, then they are going to be very over carbonated. The lines supplied with the font are fitted for your convienience & are a fine length for a standard ale pour. If you wish to serve highly carbonated beers, you will need to lengthen the line or fit flow restrictors.
Give me a call anytime day/evening & I can give you more detailed assistance.

Cheers Ross


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## paul

Facter, what size is the line that came with the font? Have a check to see that its 8mm od beer line and not 10mm. For the approx 3 metres of line to work it need to be 5mm id line (8mm od).

I have both of my taps with 3 metres of 5mm line and pour between 70-100kpa depending on the beer style.


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## AndrewQLD

This all sounds very complicated, when I keg my beer all I do is apply 260kpa of pressure for exactly 24hours with the beer at 6c. I then vent the keg and apply 80 kpa of pressure for serving. I have 3 taps and all have 2 mt of line. Every time I keg a beer the pressure is perfect after 24hrs. I get no foaming and no bubbles in the line.
Simple and fool proof.

Cheers
Andrew


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## facter

After talking to Ross yesterday it seems I have got my problem all sorted ... it does look like my beers were way too cabonated... the pils however is a little less fizzy than my liking, so I'm going to get a bit more line and extend one of the beer lines so that it can properly do pilseners as well as high carbed wheat beers.



thanks ross!


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## reveler

i've got two celli taps and I am picking up kegs/gas bottle this week and reading this has made me nervous.

I was planning on having friends over on Friday to christian the system, but sounds like I might want to ensure that I get it right myself first!


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## drag

Reveler said:


> i've got two celli taps and I am picking up kegs/gas bottle this week and reading this has made me nervous.
> 
> I was planning on having friends over on Friday to christian the system, but sounds like I might want to ensure that I get it right myself first!


Dont know how much you like your beer carbed, but the celi taps are far easyer to set up.
My side knob is horizontal to the ground & @ 100kpa. Nice head every time, except for the first pour of a new keg( havnt figured that out yet)
Definetly set it up the day before at least but dont have too many tries at the new toy before you plan on cristining it as you will run out.


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## davelovesbeer

Just reading the post as i am trying to balance my keg system instead of pouring foam. I have 5mm line, and most people say that they use ~3m line for a 100kPa pour. I initially used the formula posted somewhere of

Length = (pressure - (height x 0.5) - 1 ) / resistance

where length/height is in feet, pressure in psi and resistance pounds/ft

Therefore for 100kPa (~14 psi), for a tap 2 ft above the keg, beer line should be about 4.5 ft, which is about what i have, which gives alot of initial foam, and is about half as long as other people are using.

How come there is such a difference between the calculation, and what everyone else uses?


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## drsmurto

Stupid question maybe but does the tap have to be higher than the top of the keg? What would the result be? Air in the lines? Beer foam?


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## crozdog

Guys,

here is a new version of the spreadsheet with info on 5mm line added. (MODS / ADMINS - can you please replace the file on the wiki with this version?)

DrS, i see no reason why you can't. If you can add a -ve number into the height cell in the spreadsheet you will get a result. 

View attachment co2_and_keg_balancing_v1.1.xls


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## andrewg1978

I have only been kegging for about 3 batches now and have had similar issues but I am using a chiller plate through and esky on ice which in theory replaces required length of hose. I have approx 1 mt of 8mm hose b/w keg and plate and 1m of 5mm b/w plate and tap. This is hooked up to my taps sitting on an outdoor bar with esky on ground so envoironmental conditions (heat) seem to play a big part as I have been told that the beer will be warming up between the esky and tap.

Sometimes I will poor off 1/2 a pot (70% foam), let it sit for a minute to cool the tap and try again no probs. If it doesn't work, I wrap the tap in some dry ices packs and back the pressure off and seems to work well (as low as 0.3bar sometimes)! Likewise if the head is too small I have increased the pressure. This can change during the course of the keg being emptied as well.

I have tried a different type of brewkit each time and each different type of beer seems to behave differently with regards to the ideal pressure to work on my system

batch 1/ Coopers Larger - 0.3 Bar was ideal but this was on a hot night
batch 2/ Coopers Mixcana - as high as 1.7bar but the 2nd keg I have had a seal issue that I did not pick up until after gassing and could not wait to drink, so cranked up the pressure and it would go a little flat quickly but provided you slammed it down still did the job!
batch 3/ Coopers Draught - 1bar, best one so far but conditions cooler outside. 

Summary - Just trial and error for me at the moment but every brew has been excellent after a little playing.


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## crozdog

Here is a new version of the balancing spreadsheet after CDBOWN pointed out an error in the calculation of resistance for 5/8" tubing. New version now 1.2

Thanks CD 

View attachment co2_and_keg_balancing_v1.2.xls


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## cdbrown

Just to let everyone know that if you used the original file crozdog produced which didn't have the 5mm line size, then it worked fine. v1.1 introduced 5mm but then broke a lookup as it started to return values which excel thought were close enough instead of returning the exact value. It only affected those that used 3/8" ID, 3/8" OD, 5/16" ID and 5/16" OD as these kept providing the same line length as 3/16" ID.

Cheers
-cdbrown


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## afromaiko

I had a stab at adding 6mm ID tubing to this spreadsheet, but no luck.  It would be great if this could be included in newer versions, because the JG tubing that Craftbrewer carries is OD 8mm / ID 6mm. Using 1/4" is close, but more accuracy would be useful. Thanks.


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## crozdog

afromaiko said:


> I had a stab at adding 6mm ID tubing to this spreadsheet, but no luck.  It would be great if this could be included in newer versions, because the JG tubing that Craftbrewer carries is OD 8mm / ID 6mm. Using 1/4" is close, but more accuracy would be useful. Thanks.


Afro,

do you have the resistance/foot (or /m) for 6mm line? Let me know & I'll add it


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## fraser_john

Well, after years of having different length lines and messing constantly with the regulator, I downloaded this spread sheet, went through the figures, measured the temperature in my fridge, determined what volume of CO2 I wanted to get a good balance on english ales, stout, weizen, lagers and american ales, cut all my lines to matching lenghts etc

The result.......perfect pours and carbonation!! I am *wrapt* and kicking myself I had not done it earlier! 

AND, I only did it as I was pulling off the plastic liner from the inside of the door and replacing it with a masonite panel so I did not have to struggle to fit my fourth keg in! So as a side project, it was well worth doing!


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## hydroboy

I realise this is all very line dependent but the spreadsheet is using a very high line resistance for 3/16th ID tubing. 5/16th seems pretty spot on. Does any one know where I can get the line resistance figures for john guest tubing?


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## crozdog

hydroboy said:


> I realise this is all very line dependent but the spreadsheet is using a very high line resistance for 3/16th ID tubing. 5/16th seems pretty spot on. Does any one know where I can get the line resistance figures for john guest tubing?


Try john Guest directly or a distributor like craftbrewer


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## cdbrown

The 3/16th stuff is in the upper range of resistance according to this website http://kegman.net/balance.html. You can adjust it yourself if you think it's too high.


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## hydroboy

I know you can adjust it, but the whole point of this spreadsheet is to try and get your lines right first time, or at least close to save the whole trial and error thing. Not having a go at you or the original author but is anyone using 1m of 3/16th line successfully which is roughly what the spreadsheet suggests? I have read a lot of peoples posts using 2-3m of 3/16th stuff so it seems a fair way out of the norm. I will contact john guest and get back to you.


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## MarkBastard

I use metric line so I've always found the spreadsheet a little hard to follow because of that.

But either way line length is the easiest factor to work out once you're sure the other factors (temperature and reg pressure) are set correctly.


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## Logman

I'm setting my keg system up at the moment - I bought 10m of 6mm to get me started, but after reading this article it sounds wiser to get something smaller for the lines. My taps will be about 2 feet above the middle of my keg (upright 250L fridge/freezer).

The calculations leave me thinking that I'm going to end up with pretty long lines using that diameter  

If you were building a system, what size lines would you prefer?


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## Wolfy

The article links to a "_reckoner.pdf_" file, however the website (wortgames.com) appears to have gone AWOL.

Does someone have a copy of the PDF that they can upload to AHB?


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## felten

Theres one linked by TB here, I assume its the same thing anyway.


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## Hedgehog

G'day. Has anybody got a working version of the spread sheet. I get an "unknown function" message every time I try to load it up. I am trying to balance a new keg set up so any info would be appreciated. 

Cheers Jim


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## arogers

PM your email, I'll send it to you.

PS, can anyone tell me the beer line size (as in ID) the Keg King fridges come standard with?

EDIT: scratch that, ive attached it 

View attachment crozdog_balancing_table.xls


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## Hedgehog

Sorry Regulator, didn't read the whole message....I still cant get it to work. must be something wrong with my computer.


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## arogers

works fine here..... you need to enable editing first in excel, maybe that's it?


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## Hedgehog

Thanks, worked it out. Your right Regulator, need editing enabled.

Cheers jim


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## enuun

does it matter if the line is coiled up? I have to coil them up in my fridge due to lack of space and huge amounts of grain


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## Amber Fluid

enuun said:


> does it matter if the line is coiled up? I have to coil them up in my fridge due to lack of space and huge amounts of grain



Not at all and some people don't even get that choice due to limited space. 

Edit: I believe you do need to avoid kinking the lines though.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I use the curly hose picnic tap to conserve space (and limit my clumsiness' ability to step on something/break something).

I balance as per normal using the spreadsheet and no issues, other than the last 1/4 kg being a little more carbonated.

Goomba


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## enuun

Thanks guys. 

enuun


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## stux

I got sick of having 10+M of beer tubing in my keg fridge

so went with shank mounted flow controllers

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=820442

Not the cheapest solution, but they do in fact rock 


Means I now have the bare minimum tubing inside the fridge and I can dial the flow back/forth at a whim

I think, at the end of the day, purchasing perlick's for 30$ from the US, + the controllers is actually cheaper than going for Celli taps


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## mr_tyreman

Could somebody please help me, I don't have exel, could you dial in 5mm lines with a head height of 0.5m and something like 80kpa and give me a line length...

Thankyou so very much


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## razz

mr_tyreman said:


> Could somebody please help me, I don't have exel, could you dial in 5mm lines with a head height of 0.5m and something like 80kpa and give me a line length...
> 
> Thankyou so very much


For a serving temp of 4 degrees, you will need 1.13 mtrs. The table doesn't do mm only inches, I input 3/16" (4.79mm)


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## mr_tyreman

Razz your a champ!!!

there is a version in page 2 that has the 5mm option in it, and my serve temp is 6*C....

thankyou 

Edit: updated excel spreadsheet in post #25


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## razz

Make that 2.04mtrs


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## mr_tyreman

hahaha thats handy, i ordered 12m of 5mm for 6 taps and plumbed it all up, expecting to cut them down, but thats just worked out nicely....cheers for ya help Razz


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## nala

Would it possible to insert one of these John Guest type inline ball valves and control the resistance without having to cut line to a
predetermined length ?


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## barls

bad idea as it will only lead to a glass of head. by reducing the id of the pipe your just asking for the gas to come back out of solution.
i have two of these ones that you can by if you want
Compensator - Quick Fit 3/8"


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## Spiesy

Re-balancing the kegerator today....

Initially it came with very long beer lines, and poured good beer... then I got sick of the long lines in the fridge, ordered Perlick flow control taps, and cut the lines back ultra short. Probably not a great idea... was okay for me, but guests (and my wife) struggle to come to grips with the flow control aspect of the Perlicks, and consequently bad beers are being poured and fun times are not being had. 

I'd much rather have longer, coiled up lines in the fridge and good beer experiences, than vice versus.


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## Cocko

How did you go mate? Pouring well?


sc.


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