# DIY Brew Control Panels and House Insurance



## gava (11/3/14)

Hi All,

Just coming to the end of my build of my new brew controller and had an interesting conversion with a mate about connecting non electrical certified units in the house hold.

Boils down to, if you have a claim and they find you've got your DIY Control panel connected that's not tagged and tested they can void your insurance and not pay out.

Question : Has anyone looked up about this? Anyone find this to be true or full of crap? If you have checked it out what company and plan are you with?

I don't really wanna get any claims squashed due to this minor thing.

Cheers
Gavin.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/3/14)

The Insurance companies will do whatever it takes to refuse a claim. If you made something and used it that 

A. Not madee to the relevant AS:3000:2000
B. Not done by a licenced person

Not only that it would be deemed unlawfull and if it caused injury or death you are going to be in a lot of trouble.

I do not like giving advice to say" is my thingo wired up and safe" There is no way on gods earth I ever would, simply because if you get dragged into court by someone who said " yeah but this bloke on AHB siad it was all good" You wont have a leg to stand on. And I sure as **** aint going to jail for that.


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## dicko (11/3/14)

Good questions, and the same would apply to all the STC's,Fridgemates, Brewmates, Dixcells, etc with home made wiring.







:lol: :lol: h34r:


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## TSMill (11/3/14)

Brew in the shed, problem solved.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/3/14)

dicko said:


> Good questions, and the same would apply to all the STC's,Fridgemates, Brewmates, Dixcells, etc with home made wiring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HAHAHAHA, the two nails in the tape got me.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/3/14)

dicko said:


> Good questions, and the same would apply to all the STC's,Fridgemates, Brewmates, Dixcells, etc
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: h34r:


Sure does. Unless it is ready to plug n play with a sticker on the back showing power ratings, voltage, earthed or double insulated then its not going to help you in court.

If you have to wire it up.... Its prob not going to be legal.


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## dicko (11/3/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> HAHAHAHA, the two nails in the tape got me.


I think that pic came from this forum some time ago h34r:


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/3/14)

Actually that pic would be legal as they are std plugs and sockets and there really is nothing to say how many appliances you can plug into power boards. The circuit breaker is what will protect the power circuit.

But...you cant legeslate against stupidity


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/3/14)

TSMill said:


> Brew in the shed, problem solved.


Surely AS3000 still applies to a shed though? I thought it applies to any hard wiring to the mains power? Then portable stuff should be tested and tagged?


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## sponge (11/3/14)

You could probably say that all of the DIY stuff is in the shed if the house decides to have an electrical fire, which I'm assuming would be okay if all appliances inside the house were certified? (assuming that the shed doesn't burn down as well?)



EDIT: You gotta keep em separated..


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## wide eyed and legless (11/3/14)

Do you have to get house hold appliances tested? And isn't the test annually.
Also I am sure it is only for Work-safe Health and Safety for employers that they have to be tagged.


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## .DJ. (11/3/14)

it wouldnt have to be tested and tagged, but would have to be built to standard.

The insurer would certainly investagte the cause of the fire... Could they work out that a DIY controller caused it? Depends how damaged it was I guess.

The best bet is to have an electrician to build/install it and then if there is an issue, its covered by the electricians liability insurance.


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## DU99 (11/3/14)

Its not compulsory to have home applicances tested


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## TSMill (11/3/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:



> Surely AS3000 still applies to a shed though? I thought it applies to any hard wiring to the mains power? Then portable stuff should be tested and tagged?


Yes, but my shed won't burn down my house, and vice versa.


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## dicko (11/3/14)

gava said:


> Boils down to, if you have a claim and they find you've got your DIY Control panel connected that's not tagged and tested they can void your insurance and not pay out.
> 
> Question : Has anyone looked up about this? Anyone find this to be true or full of crap? If you have checked it out what company and plan are you with?
> 
> ...



We all have a way around the legal and technical side of most things but can someone answer the OP's question?


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## wide eyed and legless (11/3/14)

Gava, to be on the safe side why not get an insurance salesman out to inspect it, he will tell you what the score is.


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## gava (11/3/14)

wow that escalated quickly... Yeah thought I was going to have to ask my insurance company about it just thought someone else may have gone down this track already.

-gav


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## GrumpyPaul (11/3/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Gava, to be on the safe side why not get an insurance salesman out to inspect it, he will tell you what the score is.


I am sorry WEAL...I cannot look at your avatar and take anything you say seriously.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/3/14)

Your local smiling insurance salesman may not know the answer to the OP question.

Its more of an assesor and loss adjusters job.


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## wide eyed and legless (11/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Your local smiling insurance salesman may not know the answer to the OP question.
> 
> Its more of an assesor and loss adjusters job.
> He hasn't burned it down yet!


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## .DJ. (12/3/14)

as "_Your local smiling insurance salesman_" I can tell you that all insurance companies look for recovery opportunities and ALL major house fires are investigated by professional investigation companies.

If a fire is cause by something illegal (I believe doing electrical work when unlicensed is) id be pretty confident the insurance company would deny your claim, or, if it was already paid out and further investgations reveal the cause, they would look to sue you directly to re-coup your money.

Im trying to find a precedent for this...


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## .DJ. (12/3/14)

although i would never reccomend youi...

http://www.youi.com.au/Default.aspx?DN=9abf0454-280a-487d-a0e8-c1cda26285d2

from a QLD website

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/homeowners-and-consumers/dontdiy


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## gava (12/3/14)

.DJ. said:


> although i would never reccomend youi...
> 
> http://www.youi.com.au/Default.aspx?DN=9abf0454-280a-487d-a0e8-c1cda26285d2
> 
> ...


Most of that is installing/relocating hard wired to mains units, with the exception of "or constructing an extension lead and replacing a plug on the end of a lead."
But not worth the risk with young kids in the house, Think I best research getting a sparky to look at it.

-gav


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## MastersBrewery (12/3/14)

If there was a fire, and the control unit was not being used IE not plugged in, I can't see it having any baring on insurance.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> If there was a fire, and the control unit was not being used IE not plugged in, I can't see it having any baring on insurance.


That would be different as its not in use...but it was plugged in and did cause domething then your screwed.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

gava said:


> Most of that is installing/relocating hard wired to mains units, with the exceptioon of "or constructing an extension lead and replacing a plug on the end of a lead."
> But not worth the risk with young kids in the house, Think I best research getting a sparky to look at it.
> 
> -gav


And includes wirring up an STC or something similar and/or repairing an appliance. The law covers more than just hard wired equipment.


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## gava (12/3/14)

Also found a statement about "You can't retrospectively get DIY electrical work certified even if its in 100% working order and to standard"
looks like I'm going to have to chance it and just unplug it after every brew.

-gav


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## verysupple (12/3/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> If there was a fire, and the control unit was not being used IE not plugged in, I can't see it having any baring on insurance.


You'd hope that would be the case. My gut feeling is the insurance company would take a standing similar to: "Even if your DIY equipment didn't cause _this_ fire, you're obviously not taking due care, so we're still not paying.".

I hope I'm wrong but I've seen just how far they're willing to go to get out of paying.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

They will do ANYTHING posible

I have known of car accidents where they didint pay out because the tryes where not inflated to the correct pressure.

If they can save $500,000 by finding out a way to not pay you, they will.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/3/14)

Brewery insurance http://midlandinsurance.com.au/industries/breweries
Not affiliation blah.....


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

Not much use...thats more for a commercial venture


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## .DJ. (12/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> They will do ANYTHING posible
> 
> I have known of car accidents where they didint pay out because the tryes where not inflated to the correct pressure.
> 
> If they can save $500,000 by finding out a way to not pay you, they will.


This is more the exception rather than the rule... and i would HIGHLY doubt a claim being denied due to incorrect pressure...

and no-one ever hears the instances where claims are paid where they dont have to be...


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

.DJ. said:


> This is more the exception rather than the rule... and i would HIGHLY doubt a claim being denied due to incorrect pressure...
> 
> and no-one ever hears the instances where claims are paid where they dont have to be...


Have a mate who owns a panel shop. The assesors are always checking for any mechanicle defect. When they want to be they will be real pricks. I have seen come in and check tyres regardless of the accident.

The bloke who assesors your claim my not work for your insurance company. He really doesnt care


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## NewtownClown (12/3/14)

.DJ. said:


> This is more the exception rather than the rule... and i would HIGHLY doubt a claim being denied due to incorrect pressure...
> 
> and no-one ever hears the instances where claims are paid where they dont have to be...


Absolutely! I have a friend in Insurance (not sales) who is forever whining about the number of payouts he knows should be looked at but aren't. They are so busy processing claims that they "rubber stamp" approve the majority. They recoup their payouts in the premiums they charge and the knowledge that the majority of policy holders are over insured and will never make a claim.

Insurers are the biggest gamblers, their most valuable employees are the Actuaries (the bookmakers). 

I have emailed him regarding many points in this thread, he is to get back to me about the original post but believes it would be considered an "accidental fire"


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## NewtownClown (12/3/14)

My mate's company is one of the top three insurers in Australia
Quote; We have never had a claim that’s been denied because of a situation such as this.

That is not opinion but fact


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

But what if the did have a situation ...just because they have yet to have one doesnt automaticaly mean they would pay....

But I sure dont want to be the test case...


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## .DJ. (12/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Have a mate who owns a panel shop. The assesors are always checking for any mechanicle defect. When they want to be they will be real pricks. I have seen come in and check tyres regardless of the accident.
> 
> The bloke who assesors your claim my not work for your insurance company. He really doesnt care


I know how it works..

So they checked the tyres, but did they deny the claim... Dont let the truth get in the way of a good story...


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## .DJ. (12/3/14)

NewtownClown said:


> Absolutely! I have a friend in Insurance (not sales) who is forever whining about the number of payouts he knows should be looked at but aren't. They are so busy processing claims that they "rubber stamp" approve the majority. They recoup their payouts in the premiums they charge and the knowledge that the majority of policy holders are over insured and will never make a claim.


so true... liability claims are the worst. Its more economical to just pay out that try to fight or investigate..


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

.DJ. said:


> I know how it works..
> 
> So they checked the tyres, but did they deny the claim... Dont let the truth get in the way of a good story...


Journalism 101


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## indica86 (12/3/14)

What about the Keg King temp controllers? I'd say they wouldn't be covered either as they are not stamped.


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## pat_00 (12/3/14)

A timely thread, I was looking at buying a second stc1000 for a fermenting fridge. The KK unit came to mind because I thought it might be worth the extra $ than the dodgy deathtrap I wired up 

How can they sell an unapproved appliance?

That YOUI link tries to say that 240v is more deadly than 110v? Huh? Me fail electronics, but I thought it was current not voltage that kills ya?

I


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

pat_00 said:


> That YOUI link tries to say that 240v is more deadly than 110v? Huh? Me fail electronics, but I thought it was current not voltage that kills ya?
> 
> I


Well I strongly suggest you give 11kv a go....

High voltage DC is actually more dangerous as it causes your muscles to clamp where as AC will cause muscles to contract and release.

But I dont advocate trying to see which one will kill you easier...


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## zarniwoop (12/3/14)

It's been a while since I looked at the legislation (I.e. 10 years plus) but you don't need to be an electrician to mess around with mains based equipment outside of Qld. Qld instituted some bl**dy silly laws that required all 240V regardless of it's fixed or not to be handled by an electrician.

I'm still waiting to find a sparky that can advise me on designing the 240V side of a SMPS....


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## yum beer (12/3/14)

I'd say if your STC has caused the fire and you've got assessors looking around, the STC is gunna be pretty well melted into a heap, "this is the culprit, this dodgy piece of chinese electronics...when will people learn, tsk tsk.'
they would have a hard time telling who did the wiring, 'yes sir, it was a store bought jobby, ive had it many a year, what? receipt, burnt in the the other room, sorry.'


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## yum beer (12/3/14)

'When can I get my new Braumeister.'
'Receipt, attached to the one for the STC.'


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## MartinOC (12/3/14)

My old man used to be the media mouthpiece for the ICA (Insurance Council of Australia) & I queried him on this earlier today. Basically, he said that well over 85% of household claims are paid-out without question & there would need to be something seriously dodgy about a claim for it to be denied.

Even normal household good that are certified to Australian standards fail occasionally, which is why they cover "motor fusion" & loss of contents of a freezer in household insurance policies these days. There's always the Ombudsman.....

Besides, if your Circuit Breaker/RCD keeps tripping, it's giving you a VERY clear message!


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

It would be illegall in NSW to wire up an STC or similar device without a licence. You would need to wire up a socket or plug and that requires a licence. And cutting a an extension cord in half and using that is still illegal. 

The fact that your insurer may still pay out does not stop the fact that wiring up your STC without a licence is illegal

Guys, get over it. You cant DIY an STC yourself without a licence. IT IS ILLEGAL.

http://blog.tradeplatform.com.au/2013/04/home-improvement-diy/is-your-diy-electrical-project-actually-breaking-the-law/

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Tradespeople/Electricians.page


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## zarniwoop (12/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> It would be illegall in NSW to wire up an STC or similar device without a licence. You would need to wire up a socket or plug and that requires a licence. And cutting a an extension cord in half and using that is still illegal.
> 
> The fact that your insurer may still pay out does not stop the fact that wiring up your STC without a licence is illegal
> 
> ...


Are you quite sure that applies to non fixed appliances? Can you show me the legislation? I'm not trying to contradict you but I understood different.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

You would have to wire a plug or socket. Thats ilegal. Its on tge NSW fairtrading site


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/esa2004309/


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Product_and_service_safety/Electrical_safety/Eliminating_electrical_accidents.page 

Fair Trading's inspections of electrical equipment 

Suppliers of electrical equipment are responsible for the safety of the products they sell. NSW Fair Trading enforces activities aimed at removing unsafe equipment from the marketplace. As a result of shop inspections or complaints of equipment failure, sellers of unsatisfactory goods may also be instructed to suspend sales, recall previously sold goods or face prosecution. Go to the Product safety – electrical goods
page to view examples of failed products.


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## Black Devil Dog (12/3/14)

Such a dilemma. Do I save myself a few bucks and wire an electrical item myself, not really knowing what I'm doing and potentially voiding my house insurance, thus losing several hundred thousand dollars in assets?

Or, do I get an electrical item that's been done legally, pay a few more bucks and not have to worry about it?

It's a tough one.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It's a tough one.


You really only have one choice.


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## pk.sax (12/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You really only have one choice.


Use gas


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## zarniwoop (12/3/14)

Sorry I don't accept this, the legislation you have posted relates to the sale of electrical items and the safety of the consumer, nothing to do with wiring plugs on at home.

Safe work Australia excludes this from their "MANAGING ELECTRICAL RISKS IN THE WORKPLACE - Code of Practice" document under:

This Code does not apply to:

electrical work on extra-low voltage electrical equipment, including extra-low voltage electrical installations
electrical work on high voltage equipment after switching, isolation, short circuiting and earthing, subject to summary guidance in Chapter 10 of this Code
*the manufacture of electrical equipment*
automotive electrical work
work that is not electrical work carried out on telephone, communication and data systems
work carried out by or on behalf of an electricity supply authority on the electrical equipment controlled or operated by the authority to generate, transform, transmit or supply electricity
*[SIZE=11pt]repair of consumer electrical equipment when unplugged from any electrical socket outlet[/SIZE]*
Link: http://tinyurl.com/kboq7u6

In addition Workcover NSW mentions it in their 2006 test and tag document:


WHO IS ALLOWED TO REPLACE A PLUG OR SOCKET?
Plugs and extension cord sockets may be replaced by a non-electrically trained person, provided the
person has been trained and found competent to fit plugs and sockets according to the manufacturer’s
instructions.

No mention of electricians there. Link:http://tinyurl.com/nxd4gw4

Unless you can specifically point to a credible document that states that only licensed electricians can wire a plug on 240V appliances I don't accept what you say to be correct. (excluding Qld of course  )

For the OP: working on electrical equipment that is not fixed (i.e. not permanently wired in like an oven or a wall socket) is not illegal in most states (Qld has some stupid laws around this), you need to exercise caution as there is a risk of electrocution if you get it wrong but that's up to you to decide if it's worth the risk. (There is also a risk of fire but provided your switch board and house wiring is up to scratch this is less likely than electrocution). Regarding the actual question you asked re insurance that's really for someone who knows more about insurance law than I do but they would need to prove that your equipment caused the fire, if it did then I don't know if that would void your policy as it's a very grey area: You're not selling it so it doesn't need to comply to standards (probably) and even if it did is the insurance company really going to start measuring the gaps between the PCB tracks on the STC-1000 to ensure it meets the relevant standard (prehaps you could ask an electrician about that one  ) etc etc. Having said all that they could just say no and not pay and then you've got to sue them. Best to listen to those who know about insurance law rather than technical issues. (FWIW I don't worry about the insurance issue but then again I'm qualified and could quite probably argue the technical issue in court from a professional level)

Now having broken my cardinal rule of not debating issues on the net anymore I shall sink back to oblivion unless a credible document appears 


Cheers

Zarniwoop


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## indica86 (12/3/14)

zarniwoop said:


> WHO IS ALLOWED TO REPLACE A PLUG OR SOCKET?
> Plugs and extension cord sockets may be replaced by a non-electrically trained person, provided the
> person has been trained and found competent to fit plugs and sockets according to the manufacturer’s
> instructions.


What the actual **** does that mean?
Non-electrically trained but in the same breath trained?


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## zarniwoop (12/3/14)

It's an arse covering exercise as the document relates to work places, in other words any idiot can replace plugs but they must be competent, some documents state trained some experienced but critically not electrically trained.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

zarniwoop said:


> WHO IS ALLOWED TO REPLACE A PLUG OR SOCKET?
> Plugs and extension cord sockets may be replaced by a non-electrically trained person, provided the
> person has been trained and found competent to fit plugs and sockets according to the manufacturer’s
> instructions.
> ...


So if your not trained and not deemed to be found competent, where does leave you..?

I know your looking at it from a pure legal view, but personally I think its irresponsible to give people the impresion that they can go and wire up equipment at will. I hope I am wrong with how I have interpreted your view.


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## Dunkelbrau (12/3/14)

Unqualified but trained.. Hungry jacks employees are trained.. Doesn't mean they are qualified chefs.

I would say if you're unsure don't touch it. But if you're sure on what to do, go for it. If the appliance melts down the tag attached to it will be gone as well. All they will find is the source, no the cause within the unit. Electric blankets probably cause more fires.

Technically, if you follow the no un qualified persons touching anything mains powered then you can't change a light bulb.


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## gava (12/3/14)

Here is my wiring.... anyone notice anything obviously wrong.


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## breakbeer (12/3/14)

My wife is an insurance loss adjuster & what most people on here are saying about 'they'll do ANYTHING to get out of paying a claim' is simply & flat out not true. 
In a nutshell, every policy & PDS is different in so many ways, unless it's written in stone on your policy then they have nothing to 'hang their hat on'
Comparing auto insurance policies regarding tire pressures & a House & Contents policy regarding electronics is like comparing Jessica Alba to the meth addicted, toothless chick who sleeps at the local train station. 

Google the '2005 Financial Services Reform Act' if you're that way inclined


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## spog (12/3/14)

pat_00 said:


> A timely thread, I was looking at buying a second stc1000 for a fermenting fridge. The KK unit came to mind because I thought it might be worth the extra $ than the dodgy deathtrap I wired up
> 
> How can they sell an unapproved appliance?
> 
> ...


Caveat Empor.( I think the spelling is correct) but basically it is buyer beware.
These days responsibility is becoming more and more self regulated,as a tradie I have to accept that anyone can buy a power tool or power lead that has not been tested/tagged as part of the purchase but the rules,regs,laws are just that.
The law is that I as a tradie must do the right thing or be held responsible.
Here the price of T&T is between $ 7.50/10.00 per item.
Off topic,yes,but I am saying that if you are caught out,lookout out.
Any sparkie ( in the true sense of this topic) would be stupid NOT to charge you / me / for their time and record it as an arse covering legal transaction.
A retailer sells a product in good faith what you ,we do with it is our choice,yes the liability argument can go on for ever.
But as I understand,plug and play brew systems and appliances (from a complient trader) are covered by household insurance.


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## zarniwoop (12/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So if your not trained and not deemed to be found competent, where does leave you..?
> 
> I know your looking at it from a pure legal view, but personally I think its irresponsible to give people the impresion that they can go and wire up equipment at will. I hope I am wrong with how I have interpreted your view.


Yes they can go and wire up equipment at will, it's the law. In the same way they can go and fix their own brakes on a car or repair their scuba tank regulator there's nothing to say they can't. It's up to the individual to decide whether they are competent to do this and as a qualified and experienced electronics engineer I get fed up with people stating that something is illegal when it isn't, there is far too much scare-mongering regarding electrical issues and this is a classic example.

Yes it can be dangerous, but so are many things, it's up to the individual to decide but they should have the facts regarding what they can and cannot do legally before they do.


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## zarniwoop (12/3/14)

breakbeer said:


> My wife is an insurance loss adjuster & what most people on here are saying about 'they'll do ANYTHING to get out of paying a claim' is simply & flat out not true.
> In a nutshell, every policy & PDS is different in so many ways, unless it's written in stone on your policy then they have nothing to 'hang their hat on'
> Comparing auto insurance policies regarding tire pressures & a House & Contents policy regarding electronics is like comparing Jessica Alba to the meth addicted, toothless chick who sleeps at the local train station.
> 
> Google the '2005 Financial Services Reform Act' if you're that way inclined


This and other insurance info is the most useful in this thread so far.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

breakbeer said:


> My wife is an insurance loss adjuster & what most people on here are saying about 'thoey'll do ANYTHING to get out of paying a claim' is simply & flat out not true.


 http://m.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-business-wins-supreme-court-case-against-allianz-over-stormwater-insurance-rejection/story-fnihsrf2-1226684555779

http://m.smh.com.au/environment/weather/when-is-a-flood-not-a-flood-20110105-19g0p.html

http://www.ausbt.com.au/will-your-travel-insurance-cover-brisbane-s-floods 

Mmmmmm..........


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/3/14)

zarniwoop said:


> Yes they can go and wire up equipment at will, it's the law.


Can you point me towards the legaslation that allows for this, I would like to check it out further.


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## DU99 (12/3/14)

:icon_offtopic: few years ago the ETU tried to have the rules selling electricial parts changed so only licensed people could buy them..
Also OCEI in victoria imposes very heavy fines for non licensed electricial work connected to the supply.


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## barls (13/3/14)

ever done the test and tag course. 3 days if your not electrically qualified but about 3/4 if you are.
and yes i have my test and tag number plus a cert 4 in electronics and electrical and another one in frontline govt management.
if anyone can tell me what the second one does ill be happy


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## wide eyed and legless (13/3/14)

I wouldn't imagine there would be any legislation pointing out things that are not illegal, but one thing's for sure Bunnings and other electrical wholesalers wouldn't be selling cable, electrical plugs, sockets and the like for fear of litigation if Joe Blow the village idiot who doesn't know his earth from his elbow wired something up and he had an accident.
Responsibility is with the purchaser.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/3/14)

Bunnings & TLE etc state that electrical wirring must be performed by licenced electricians. Its not illegal to sell it, just installing it


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## Screwtop (13/3/14)

Electrical contractor installed power to my shed including a sub switchboard with a safety switch, lighting circuit and two power circuits, one 15A.

I built my control panel, if it malfunctioned/shorted/burnt resulting is a fire or damage to the building without tripping the breakers/safety switch installed by the contractor I would sue him if my insurance provider would not pay up.

Screwy


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## booargy (13/3/14)

Screwtop said:


> Electrical contractor installed power to my shed including a sub switchboard with a safety switch, lighting circuit and two power circuits, one 15A.
> 
> I built my control panel, if it malfunctioned/shorted/burnt resulting is a fire or damage to the building without tripping the breakers/safety switch installed by the contractor I would sue him if my insurance provider would not pay up.
> 
> Screwy


The protection installed on the circuit is only designed to protect the wiring not what is plugged into the outlet. So if the fault current doesn't exceed the circuit protection it will not trip.
for example a "hot joint" is a high resistance connection(loose,corroded,broken cable strands) that gets hot enough to burn but doesn't draw enough current to trip the circuit protection.


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## zarniwoop (13/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Can you point me towards the legaslation that allows for this, I would like to check it out further.


Sure when you can give me legislation that says I can eat chocolate cake or whistle a tune or build a model train. In the vast majority of cases legislation exists to tell you what you can't do, not what you can do. The lack of a law banning this means you can do this.

Just so we are very clear on this I will state my point again: *Whilst it is illegal to work on fixed mains voltage equipment**, it is not illegal to work on non fixed mains equipment* *(i.e. equipment connected to the mains by a plug) with the exception of Qld.*

Evidence to the contrary please? (and not just what someone thinks or they were told)


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## O-beer-wan-kenobi (13/3/14)

zarniwoop I hear your point.
I work for a switchboard manufacture. We can have people working on our equipment installing cables, bus bars etc with no electrical qualifications at all. However the equipment must be tested and to the relevant standards before it is connected to the main supply.
To work on mains connected equipment we must use licensed electricians.

I'm not sure of the regulations about non fixed mains equipment via plugs. The WA Energy Safety web site below does not say that it is illegal or legal to work on appliances. If it was illegal I would have thought that they would state this.
It does say that it is legal to connect plugs and cords.

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/energysafety/Content/Consumers/Safe_use_of_electricity/index.htm

These rules are there for a reason to make sure we are safe. If we do not follow them there maybe consequences


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## pcmfisher (13/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have known of car accidents where they didint pay out because the tryes where not inflated to the correct pressure.


And I know someone that got a chicken bone stuck in their throat while eating at KFC, and when the doctor removed it he said "That's not a chicken bone, its a cat bone".......

I actually did know this person. Really and truely. Honest.


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## DU99 (13/3/14)

portable equipment has to be tag and tested at certain periods of time,reason being that they are safe for people to use

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3760
http://www.appliancetaggingservices.com.au/electrical-safety-standard


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## Coalminer (13/3/14)

zarniwoop said:


> Sure when you can give me legislation that says I can eat chocolate cake or whistle a tune or build a model train. In the vast majority of cases legislation exists to tell you what you can't do, not what you can do. The lack of a law banning this means you can do this.
> 
> Just so we are very clear on this I will state my point again: *Whilst it is illegal to work on fixed mains voltage equipment**, it is not illegal to work on non fixed mains equipment* *(i.e. equipment connected to the mains by a plug) with the exception of Qld.*
> 
> Evidence to the contrary please? (and not just what someone thinks or they were told)


Not disagreeing with this, but we all know laws are stupid sometimes (reflects the commonsense of those that draw up those laws)
But therefore I can change the oven element in a microwave oven or small plug-in conventional oven but I can't change the oven element in a fixed wired conventional oven as its permanently connected!


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## pk.sax (13/3/14)

Coalminer said:


> Not disagreeing with this, but we all know laws are stupid sometimes (reflects the commonsense of those that draw up those laws)
> But therefore I can change the oven element in a microwave oven or small plug-in conventional oven but I can't change the oven element in a fixed wired conventional oven as its permanently connected!


Makes sense to me.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/3/14)

Coalminer said:


> But therefore I can change the oven element in a microwave oven


Good luck with that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/3/14)

Stoopid double posting...


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## zarniwoop (13/3/14)

Well it been a while and no-one has come up with evidence showing that you cannot work on non-fixed mains equipment outside of Qld so by the rules of the internet I'm going to call this myth busted.

Back to the OP's question; this all comes down to liability and your insurance policy. As one poster mentioned products that are built and sold need to be built to a standard and this is quite true, most electrical products have to comply with electrical safety standards as well as other standards about what that product is supposed to do if it serves a specific function. Difference here is that you are building this for personal use and frankly I have no idea (and I really doubt anyone else on here does unless they're a lawyer dealing with this area) about how this applies to the various standards (no guesses on this please).

As you are legally allowed to do this it becomes a grey area, if you build a product professionally and it kills someone then you need to prove that you built it correctly and that it's not your fault if you're prosecuted. I'm a engineer which gives me the qualifications to build this but that would not be enough as a defense if I built it, sold it and it killed someone, an electrician would have even less of a defense as they are not as a rule trained and experienced in design, but regardless the person defending would need to show they built it correctly which is why we have standards for commercial products. (Actually I think the prosecution would need to show they didn't build it to standards but it's basically the same thing).

But as you've built it for personal use and you're not selling it an insurance company would need to show that it caused the fire, you built it incorrectly and it voids the policy. It's not just enough for them to say "sorry buddy but you're not trained in this area and it looks like it caused the fire so tough luck", you're not doing anything illegal so they need to prove it's your fault. Now to be honest provided you don't do anything stupid like keep your collection of ancient antique newspapers in the control box and install 100A fuses protecting wire that will burn up at 10mA you're going to have to try to burn the thing down, and to a degree an insurance policy will have to pay out against accidental damage like this or else they'd never pay out on things like people leaving candles burning etc.

That's the technical liability side of things which is just my basic understanding, I'm happy to be corrected by someone involved in the area if this is incorrect. What you really need here is *the opin*i*on of someone who knows about insurance law and policies*, what does a company pay out against? What does your policy exclude? How much wiggle room do they have? etc etc. The reality is much of this is case law (i.e. decided by the court not written in legislation) so it's a difficult area to understand. Despite internet tradition I will not start to pontificate on an area that I have no real knowledge of. Personally I'd go ahead and build it.

As a final comment a number of people have mentioned they don't agree with the legislation allowing people to work on mains equipment who aren't electricians, this, and the issue of allowing people to work on fixed mains wiring as they do in the UK, NZ and the USA, is one of those arguments that you can have on the internet that go on forever with no end and just end up as a slanging match between the various groups, even though I have strong views in that area I'm not going to get involved in that one as I'd rather spend the time worrying about why my FG is constantly high on my last few brews and besides I can cut out the middle man and just smash my head into a brick wall myself.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go and help my mate wire up an orphanage h34r:


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## spog (13/3/14)

To my mind this topic has certainly given food for thought,as I understand a " shed " would come under house and contents cover?.
The whole topic has covered many suggestions,ideas etc but it certainly is a " grey" area.
But as has been said in this and the other control panel wiring topics get it wired by a licenced sparky to give yourself peace of mind and confidence,then what ever happens,happens.
Cheers...spog....


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## zarniwoop (13/3/14)

A sparky would need to check and approve the design which they may not be qualified to do and they would charge a fortune.


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## Coalminer (13/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Good luck with that.


The point being?
Have 46 years trade experience - should be able to handle a simple job like that (never had to as yet though)


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## pk.sax (13/3/14)

Normally microwaves don't have a 'heating element'.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/3/14)

10pts PF.

Gota love deemed competence.


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## zarniwoop (14/3/14)

The other problem with microwaves from memory is that they generate very high voltages at quite high relative currents which if you don't discharge them properly before working on them it's goodnight time. Ironically they are one of the few pieces of kit I would say you shouldn't mess with. But then it's not 240V in a GPO so I doubt your average electrician should mess with it either, best to take them to a specialist in microwave repair, who probably won't be legally allowed to work on fixed mains but they will know how to fix a microwave. (I really need a stir icon)


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## Coalminer (14/3/14)

Did not mention magnetrons ( I would not touch one myself either ) but was referring to convection elements

I have had one for many years

http://www.appliancesonline.com.au/convection-microwaves/?gclid=CLP0qrGnkL0CFYVZpQodzCQA0g




edit: clarity


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## gava (14/3/14)

oh wow, this still going...


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## zarniwoop (14/3/14)

But in the best traditions of the internet it didn't really answer your question 

But you're right I really need to stop posting on this one. Time to go to work....


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## gava (14/3/14)

what I got from this is......

If your in QLD suffer in your jocks..

Cheap/Risky (potentially deadly) Option : Connect it up see how you go, house burns down just hope you don't get a prick assessor. 

Legal/Expensive/safer Option : Get a fully qualified person to make it and certify it.

*I said safer option because as previously said you can't account for dickehads*

THE END!


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## Screwtop (14/3/14)

What I got from this. 

Lots of posts based upon **** all knowledge!

Screwy


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/3/14)

I have made some enquiries to try and get a definative answer...unfortunatly it would appear that the answer is not that simple. 

I have a feeling that there could be tears involved...


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (14/3/14)

Is this thread still going. Lol. If your scared of losing your house don't do any electrical work. Simple. 
Losing my house is one thing,but loseing my family in a fire wouldn't I'm shor be coved with insurance. 
Built your gear in the shed at least that way you don't lose anything important.


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