# Uk Liquid Yeast



## warra48 (16/12/12)

OK, I bottle my brews, so if you keg, move on, there's nothing to see here.

My experience with every liquid UK style yeast I've used is that the things slowly keep on fermenting in the bottle, even though my Apparent Attenuation is always at the top end of the range.
I'm sick and tired of opening up a bottle 2 to 3 months post bottling, only to find it produces more foam than beer.
Doesn't happen with the dried UK yeasts, nor with any of the dried or liquid USA or German style yeasts.

Only clue I might have is from a discussion with BribieG recently, when he opined it might be because the liquid UK yeasts are primarily bred for cask ales, and these are consumed with a week or two of casking, so it's not an issue. 

Anyone else noticed this? 
Is there a solution (yes, I know, drink the whole batch within 2 weeks, but that's not my consumption pattern)?


----------



## goomboogo (16/12/12)

Have you tried priming a little less to allow for the extra attenuation you seem to be getting in the bottle?


----------



## Rowy (16/12/12)

I'm not a racking fan Warra but maybe that would reduce the amount of yeast after primary............


----------



## warra48 (16/12/12)

I prime at only about 1/2 the rate BeerSmith suggests for the style.

I never rack, but I would have thought 2 or 3 days Cold Crashing would achieve the same result?


I'm seriously thinking of using Danny's Favourite 50 for all my ales, whether USA or UK.
Obviously, German yeasts have been no problem.

I hardly ever brew Lagers or Belgians.


----------



## tiprya (16/12/12)

How long do you leave in primary/secondary?

I find with the liquid english's I've used they all ferment to the high end of the recommended attenuation range (1084, 1335, 1469). I leave in primary for 2 weeks and tend to ferment around 19 degrees and don't seem to have any problems in the bottle.

I have found with 1469, the 3 times I've used it, i've gotten 76-78% AA - which is far above specification (67-71).


----------



## Rowy (16/12/12)

tiprya said:


> How long do you leave in primary/secondary?
> 
> I find with the liquid english's I've used they all ferment to the high end of the recommended attenuation range (1084, 1335, 1469). I leave in primary for 2 weeks and tend to ferment around 19 degrees and don't seem to have any problems in the bottle.
> 
> I have found with 1469, the 3 times I've used it, i've gotten 76-78% AA - which is far above specification (67-71).



That 1469 is a beats! I love that yeast :beerbang:


----------



## felten (16/12/12)

I would try a fast ferment test on every batch you make. See if your yeast is really finishing as low as it can. 

If the fast ferment test FG is lower than your actual batch then you know something is stopping it from finishing, maybe not enough oxygen/nutrients.

If it isn't lower, than maybe some other cause like infection, or nucleation points in the bottles?


----------



## jyo (16/12/12)

Warra, every time I use liquid English my bottles are overcarbed. That is after swirling, rousing, heating up to 22-23' for a few days, leaving on the yeast for 2 weeks. Doesn't seem to matter, they wake up in the bottle. My last Bitter beer I carbed at half the priming rate and I'm glad I did. 

A solution would be good.


----------



## warra48 (16/12/12)

tiprya said:


> How long do you leave in primary/secondary?



Never less than 2 weeks, usually more like 3 weeks.
TempMate is set at 19.5C for UK styles.

Fast ferment test is a good idea, but how the heck do I get it to drop more in primary?


----------



## felten (16/12/12)

Lack of oxygen can be a big factor for under attenuation, especially for the English yeasts. Maybe look at getting an oxygen aeration kit, or putting in an extra aeration step 12 hours after you pitch the yeast, like double dropping, or just manually shaking/stirring. (if you aren't doing that already)


----------



## mje1980 (16/12/12)

Rouse rouse rouse to make sure its done. I always carb low for uk ales. Seems to work well for me. My uk ales always finish at around 1.010 or even less. I have to mash at 70c to get them to finish higher than 1.012, even with lots a crystal


----------



## hoppy2B (16/12/12)

Adding a second yeast with high attenuation properties just to finish off the last little bit before bottling may be an option.


----------



## mattbrewer (16/12/12)

Yes, rousing the yeast is the solution.


I was having the same problems with every UK liquid yeast I used. So I read the relevant parts of "Brew your own real ale at home" by Wheeler and Protz.

I now rouse the yeast by racking when the krausen falls, incorporating about half the good yeast into the new fermantation vessel. All my UK yeasts now ferment out completely with good results in the bottle.

Matt


----------



## RdeVjun (16/12/12)

Can relate Warra, had a similar experience myself. May help to also raise the ferment temperature as it approaches the expected FG, aka diacetyl rest, seemed to help mine, but it has been hard to isolate the exact cause as I also changed oxyenation to 0, 12 and 24h where possible and rouse and changed strains many times. 
It is usually the most promising batch that's affected the worst! :angry:


----------



## manticle (17/12/12)

I find they often carb up a bit more in the bottle than I would like despite finishing 1010-1012 and carbing around 1-9 vol.

They are so good in so many other ways though that I'll stick with them.

I currently bottle condition too by the way.


----------



## black_labb (17/12/12)

I've noticed the same thing but I had never pinpointed it to being the english ale yeasts causing the issue, but now that I think about it that is spot on. I'll try reaerating the yeast as suggested above.

I love the english yeasts so I'll stick with them.


----------



## Diesel80 (17/12/12)

Currently experienced this stalling with wy1318, was stuck at 1.042 to 1.016 in fermenter (nearly done but a little high for receipe). I suspect my starter was a little small.
Days 5-6 stuck.
Bumped up temp by 1 deg C and gave the brew a gentle swirl in fermenter. Only did two swirls.
2 days later down to 1.014. Just upped it another .5 degree this morning with another swirl.

Did not oxygenate the wort further but seems to be getting somewhere now. 

Need to keg it Wednesday night but at least only 1 point off target FG now. 
Should still get a 24-36 hour CC in. Dark ale shoud mask some floaties 


Cheers,
D80


----------



## Tilt (17/12/12)

Diesel80 said:


> Currently experienced this stalling with wy1318, was stuck at 1.042 to 1.016 in fermenter (nearly done but a little high for receipe). I suspect my starter was a little small.
> Days 5-6 stuck.
> Bumped up temp by 1 deg C and gave the brew a gentle swirl in fermenter. Only did two swirls.
> 2 days later down to 1.014. Just upped it another .5 degree this morning with another swirl.
> ...





Great discussion - Had the same with 1318 a while ago. 
After working through the possible problems (starter size, ferment temps, mash temp, wort nutrients, aeration (pre pitch) etc) I didnt really get to the bottom of it. 
I tried raising temps and rousing, but later on in the ferment it didn't seem to do very much (dropped another 2 points but stalled again)
In the end I came to the conclusion I'd just try to compensate by dropping the priming sugar amounts.

I haven't tried a second, or even thrid, round of aeration during the early ferment though.
What are the best ways to do this while keeping everything sanitary?


----------



## mje1980 (17/12/12)

Nothing scientific, but I have noticed some uk strains to be temperamental. Seems to be the ones with lots of character. 1098 and also 1099 {whitbread number? } I find to be on the "cleaner" side (for a uk ale strain!}, but are very reliable, and consistent. Just got another vial of 023 burton ale, and while I love the yeast character, it can be a bit of a bitch to handle, in regards to user friendlyness. Still, I love the uk strains, so bloody good!!


----------



## mje1980 (17/12/12)

tilt said:


> Great discussion - Had the same with 1318 a while ago.
> After working through the possible problems (starter size, ferment temps, mash temp, wort nutrients, aeration (pre pitch) etc) I didnt really get to the bottom of it.
> I tried raising temps and rousing, but later on in the ferment it didn't seem to do very much (dropped another 2 points but stalled again)
> In the end I came to the conclusion I'd just try to compensate by dropping the priming sugar amounts.
> ...



I just swirl the fermentor. As im a botulism infested no chiller, they get lots of aeration when they get tipped in the fermemtor. I only really have to rouse about a third of the uk ales I brew. Most ferment out fully without.


----------



## TasChris (17/12/12)

I too have had the issue of over carbed ales.
I changed my routine to racking after 7 days and then increasing temps by 4-5 deg.
ie ferment at 18 then raise to 23 after racking and leave for another 7 days.
After this I CC for approx a week prior to bottling. This seems to have fixed the issue.
Not sure if it is the racking or raising the temp.
I don't think that fermenting the last few points at 23 deg will have a large impact on flavour as its only a very small % of the entire ferment.
I also prime to a low level in my ales so this gives me a little room for any further fermentation in the bottle

Cheers
Chris


----------



## Tilt (17/12/12)

mje1980 said:


> I just swirl the fermentor. As im a botulism infested no chiller, they get lots of aeration when they get tipped in the fermemtor. I only really have to rouse about a third of the uk ales I brew. Most ferment out fully without.



Sounds the safe 'closed system' way to do it once fermentation's kicked in. 
Before pitching I drop wort about 2 feet to the fermentor and then shake the buggar for a few minutes with a sanitised thumb over the airlock hole. 
I'm always a bit nervous taking the lid off after pitching but swirling never gets the whole yeast cake into suspension. 
Conical users can blow 02 (or filtered air) from below - anyone tried this through the spigot in a standard 30L plastic fermentor?


----------



## Punkal (17/12/12)

I remember an old thread about double dropping English ales. It was used to get the yeast of the trube and to get extra oxygen into the wort, I know some people are nervous about about opening the lid so an option is pumping extra O2 into the fermenter around 16 hours after pitching.

This is an old technique developed by English brewers, probably because they were having the same problems.

Edit here is the link to the old thread http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=52795


----------



## Tilt (17/12/12)

Sweet - thanks mate. Another technique to add to the toolbox.


----------



## warra48 (17/12/12)

Thanks fellas.

Lots of interesting ideas to go on with.

One thing I found which does help, and that is to chill your bottles in the fridge for 2 to 3 days before consumption. Presumably the colder temperature enables more CO2 to be absorbed back into the beer. Just chilling it for a half to one hour in the freezer doesn't cut it.


----------



## Beerisyummy (17/12/12)

warra48 said:


> Thanks fellas.
> 
> Lots of interesting ideas to go on with.
> 
> One thing I found which does help, and that is to chill your bottles in the fridge for 2 to 3 days before consumption. Presumably the colder temperature enables more CO2 to be absorbed back into the beer. Just chilling it for a half to one hour in the freezer doesn't cut it.



Very true about slowly chilling bottles. I've noticed a much better type of head on beers that have been cooled for a long time.
The beer still tastes the same but it's better with lots of little bubbles.

What's the temperature like in the cellar at this time of year?


----------



## warra48 (17/12/12)

Beerisyummy said:


> Very true about slowly chilling bottles. I've noticed a much better type of head on beers that have been cooled for a long time.
> The beer still tastes the same but it's better with lots of little bubbles.
> 
> What's the temperature like in the cellar at this time of year?



The beer cellar is probably about 18 to 20C. Always feels cooler than the garage. Never put a thermometer in there, but I might just do that.
The wine cellar always feels even a little cooler than the beer cellar.

PS: I have one or two vintage wines targeted for christmas eve to match the seafood. Can't waste good vintage wine on philistines, as it would be on christmas day.


----------



## Kai (18/12/12)

mje1980 said:


> Rouse rouse rouse to make sure its done. I always carb low for uk ales. Seems to work well for me. My uk ales always finish at around 1.010 or even less. I have to mash at 70c to get them to finish higher than 1.012, even with lots a crystal




This is precisely correct, in my humble opinion. The issue is not about (extra) oxygenation, it's about rousing. 

Heavily flocculent top cropping english ale yeasts are pure evil on a homebrew stage, as far as I'm concerned. You have to beat them with a stick morning, noon and night to keep them working and if you don't, they fall to the top and the bottom.

Then they fall to the bottom and you're left with an unfinished beer full of diacetyl.

But you can't leave that beer in a homebrew fermenter, because in the time it takes that lazy bloody yeast to finish the job from the bottom, the beer oxidises and the yeast autolyses to boot!


----------



## Beerisyummy (19/12/12)

warra48 said:


> The beer cellar is probably about 18 to 20C. Always feels cooler than the garage. Never put a thermometer in there, but I might just do that.
> The wine cellar always feels even a little cooler than the beer cellar.
> 
> PS: I have one or two vintage wines targeted for christmas eve to match the seafood. Can't waste good vintage wine on philistines, as it would be on christmas day.



Nice one. I have a 100g of Hallertauer in the fridge, in transit. 
I might also bring up the new rig. It packs away to not much bigger than a Big W pot. Criticisms always welcome.

The long of the short with carbonation is the same as with any diffusion of gas into a liquid. From what I can tell the initial bottle carbonation temperature will alter the overall volumes of co2 available. The quick chilling of a bottle will never really give the same mouth feel as a bottle that has been chilled over several hours.

From personal/anacdotal evidence, I would say it takes over eight hours at drinking temp for a beer to settle into the bottle. I've been crash chilling for years but it's just a habit caused by not having a dedicated beer fridge.


----------



## warra48 (19/12/12)

Beerisyummy said:


> Nice one. I have a 100g of Hallertauer in the fridge, in transit.
> I might also bring up the new rig. It packs away to not much bigger than a Big W pot. Criticisms always welcome.
> 
> The long of the short with carbonation is the same as with any diffusion of gas into a liquid. From what I can tell the initial bottle carbonation temperature will alter the overall volumes of co2 available. The quick chilling of a bottle will never really give the same mouth feel as a bottle that has been chilled over several hours.
> ...



Excellent, thanks. See you next week.


----------



## drsmurto (19/12/12)

Another vote for rousing.

The minute i see the yeast dropping, i rouse. I also raise the temperature once i am within a few points of expected FG. 2-4C above fermentation temperature to help keep the yeast active.

I do rack which is something you don't do. One of the advantages of this is it allows me to carry some yeast over to the secondary container and resuspend it. I normally see a 1 or 2 point drop in secondary which would otherwise occur in the bottle or keg.


----------



## Tilt (19/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Another vote for rousing.



OK, its becoming clearer for me - its not about oxygen - just the mechanical re-suspension of lazy arsed chiilled out yeast.
What methods of rousing do you felllas find best? Fermentor swirl, stir with a sanitised spoon, sitting on the washing machine on spin cycle.....?


----------



## mje1980 (19/12/12)

I'll let you in on a secret. I swirl, but its not how you do it, its what you're wearing when you do it. Crotchless leather cowboy chaps, and a pink tutu works for me. 


Just kidding haha i just swirl. It swirling doesnt drop it, it aint gunna drop probably. When im top cropping the UK strains, i use a SS ladle, soaked in iodophor. I suppose it could be used to really stir it up, but i've never had to do more than swirling. It's also a good thing to remember your mash temp. I recently mashed a mild at 70c, and when it didn't drop past 1.015 i was pretty pissed off that it was stuck so high. Then i remembered i'd mashed it at 70c, so i kegged it. Yum.


----------



## drsmurto (19/12/12)

It's not JUST about oxygen is more correct.

You still need oxygen and the more the better. 

Rousing for me is simply swirling the fermenter a few times a day.


----------



## billygoat (19/12/12)

This is how they do it at Black Sheep Brewery in Masham, Yorkshire.


----------



## Punkal (19/12/12)

well that will rouse them... I guess that is a mechanical method of double dropping.


----------



## hoppy2B (19/12/12)

No fear opening the ferment vessel at Black Sheep. :beerbang:


----------



## warra48 (20/12/12)

OK, to summarise, let's see if I have all the helpful suggestions and experiences correct:

1. Aerate well, and again within say 12 to 16 hours
2. Rouse the yeast, and rouse it again, several times a day, to keep the little fungi working their butts off
3. Let the temperature rise by 2 to 4C after the initial stage of fermentation, or when you see the yeast starting to drop
4. Rack to help it drop another couple of points
5. CC for a period
6. Carbonate at the low end of the scale. Suits UK ales anyway, so that's no problem.

7. If all else fails, add another higher attenuation yeast to finish it off?
8. If that still fails, give up brewing UK ales, and go back to USA and German brews (I don't normally do Belgians)

I think 1 to 6 put together should provide a solution. Here's hoping, because I do love a good UK ale.


----------



## drsmurto (20/12/12)

warra48 said:


> OK, to summarise, let's see if I have all the helpful suggestions and experiences correct:
> 
> 1. Aerate well, and again within say 12 to 16 hours
> 2. Rouse the yeast, and rouse it again, several times a day, to keep the little fungi working their butts off
> ...



Or buy a handpump and serve it uncarbonated :icon_drool2:


----------



## mje1980 (20/12/12)

Change strains. Some of them are quite user friendly. Whitbread ( 1099? ), and 1098 ( british ale ) i've found to be very user friendly, in terms of just quietly doing the job, leaving me to the finer points of brewing. Drinking!

DrSmurto has a pretty good idea too!!.


----------



## stux (20/12/12)

Heh,

Any tips on swirling 60L in a 60L fermenter?


----------



## warra48 (20/12/12)

Whitbread WY1099 is the last strain I've been using. 
Still have a test tubes or two to culture up.
I do like what it did in an Amber Ale and a Bitter, so will persist.

DrS: No way will I get the funds from the minister of finance to get into kegging and hand pumping, so bottling it will remain. 
Every time the Reserve drops the interest rates, there's loud hoorahs from the mortgage payers, but it shittss us self-funded retirees, I can tell you, as it reduces our earnings, and brings us a step closer to applying to suckle on the public teat.


----------



## warra48 (20/12/12)

Stux said:


> Heh,
> 
> Any tips on swirling 60L in a 60L fermenter?



Paint stirrer chucked into your drill? Takes the hard work out of it.


----------



## TasChris (29/9/13)

About 7 months ago I brewed a Mild and a Brown Ale using Wyeast 1968. Both beers turned out well, were mashed at 66 and the wort was oxegenated and agitated during fermentation. A strong fermenting starter was used for each beer.

All in all I think that I did everything I could to ensure complete fermentation. The beers both reached the the correct FG ( 1010 and 1012) with attenuation of 71.1 and 76.0 for the two beers..

Both beers were kegged and were fantastic, the kegs were consumed in approx four weeks post fermentation. Approx 2 week ago I found a stash of 8 bottles from the two batches. All 8 bottles were gushers, no off flavors, no bad tastes at all in fact little flavor. I think the yeast has scrubbed out much of the malt flavors, and a fair bit of the body. I measured the gravity and the beer had dropped to 1006 for both beers.

I think that 1968 keeps on chewing at the more complex fermantables thus leading to over carbonation and impacting on flavor and body.

No big drama, just have to consume the beer nice and early, which is pretty much what happens in UK

Cheers
Chris


----------



## warra48 (29/9/13)

I think you got it TasChris, that's been my experience.
Definitely consume nice and early.


----------



## JDW81 (29/9/13)

Same happened to me. The beer kept getting better flavour wise, but the carbonation level kept climbing as well.


----------



## verysupple (29/9/13)

Yup, same here. I bottle all my beer so I do two things to minimise the over carbonation when using 1968: CC it for at least a few days to drop out as much yeast as possible and then drink it while it's young. 

I sent Wyeast an email a while back asking about 1968 and it's dendency to keep fermenting in the bottle. They just put it down to the yeast floccing early and then starting up again after bottling. I really doubt that's what's going on seeing as my last batch with it hit 78% apparent attenuation before I bottled and they say it should only manage between 67 - 71%.


----------



## MikeHell (2/10/13)

Kai said:


> This is precisely correct, in my humble opinion. The issue is not about (extra) oxygenation, it's about rousing.
> 
> Heavily flocculent top cropping english ale yeasts are pure evil on a homebrew stage, as far as I'm concerned. You have to beat them with a stick morning, noon and night to keep them working and if you don't, they fall to the top and the bottom.
> 
> ...


Nail on the head right there!


----------



## TasChris (3/10/13)

MikeHell said:


> Nail on the head right there!


No I don't quite fully agree.
I think that you can perform all the various steps for good yeast and fermentation management such as size of pitch, vitatilty of pitch, oxygenation, rousing, mash temp, mutli step mashing, yeast nutrients, ferment temps, raising ferment temps at end of ferment, racking, CCing etc etc however some of the UK yeasts will continue to slowly munch away on the complex sugars over time.
This leads to over carbonation and reduction in body and flavor as the yeast eventually scrubs out more and more over time.
Mind you there is an easy cure. Drink up.
Cheers
Chris


----------

