# 1kg Plain Flour In A Wit



## monkeybusiness (28/1/09)

I am keen to make a wit and have pretty much got my recipe ready to go but don't have any raw wheat on hand (and don't really want to wait for an order to come through). I've read and heard good results from using plain flour and borghul (several threads go into this), but the most I've seen people go for is 500g flour (about 10% of the grist). 

I've got 1 kg of plain wholemeal flour (about 20% of my "grain" schedule) ready to throw in the mash, and was thinking a few handfuls of rice hulls (about 100-200g) to keep things flowing. I've also read that adding the flour after adding the water to the rest of the grist can help reduce doughballs and stop the flour from clumping on the bottom. I was also thinking about mixing some of the mash water separately with the flour to make a kind of gravy to pour into the mash to avoid the dough situation.

So, before I make myself 5kg of grainy gravy or give myself one mother of a stuck sparge would anyone like to save me from myself?

ps. I would rather not just increase the borghul and reduce the flour as the local IGA only stocks it in 200g packets I think.


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## peas_and_corn (28/1/09)

the idea of adding flour confuses me. Why exactly are you adding it? What does flour add to a wheat beer?


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## Swinging Beef (28/1/09)

"mixing some of the mash water separately with the flour to make a kind of gravy"

Do that.
Adding another cup of "gravy" (roughtly a tablespoon) into the last 10 min of boil will help ensure a cloudy white beer, too.


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## monkeybusiness (28/1/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> the idea of adding flour confuses me. Why exactly are you adding it? What does flour add to a wheat beer?



Adding plain ol wheat flour as an alternative to buying raw wheat (some say essential to a good wit). When you crack raw wheat you end up with some flour and some cracked husks. This way all I have is flour. I'm assuming that "wholemeal flour" has the entire kernel ground to flour.


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## Fourstar (28/1/09)

Monkey business you could always try using some torrefied wheat.

Its not raw,(its steamed/puffed) but its not malted either.

I made a wit with this and it turned out relativly ok. the downside was the yeast/spice profile. Just a suggestion.

Cheers.


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## seemax (28/1/09)

CLAG CITY!!


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## TerritoryBrew (28/1/09)

I am of the impression that flour is only used in small quantities (1 Tbl to 20l) to give that haze that is present in Wit beer.

I got 1.5kg of raw wheat from a organic shop here in Darwin for just under $3 a kilo, have a look around at alternative health food shops. Using a kilo of flour won't add much to your brew and I think you will dissapointed. The gravy idea that Swinging Beef suggested is a good one,


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## warrenlw63 (28/1/09)

monkeybusiness said:


> ps. I would rather not just increase the borghul and reduce the flour as the local IGA only stocks it in 200g packets I think.



Try a Middle-Eastern store. We get bourghul for around $2 per kg in Melbourne. 

It's going to be less problematic than using larger amounts of flour.

Warren -


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## TerritoryBrew (28/1/09)

TerritoryBrew said:


> I am of the impression that flour is only used in small quantities (1 Tbl to 20l) to give that haze that is present in Wit beer.
> 
> I got 1.5kg of raw wheat from a organic shop here in Darwin for just under $3 a kilo, have a look around at alternative health food shops. Using a kilo of flour won't add much to your brew and I think you will dissapointed. The gravy idea that Swinging Beef suggested is a good one,



Monkey Business, I thought I would do a little research while I wasn't busy...

Green, unmalted wheat is available from the following outlet in Nowra...

Berry Street Seed and Produce
22 Berry Street, Nowra
(02) 44225885

I rang them and they sell it in 500g lots for about $3.

No affiliation or anything like that, just had some time...


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## tangent (28/1/09)

Glue beer. Good luck sparging.


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## blackbock (28/1/09)

Monkeybusiness get some puffed wheat from the health food shop, or even raw wheat. 1kg of flour is not a good idea, most people just use a spoonful or so to achieve that Wit-like cloudiness. Chances are you will end up with large amounts of starch in the beer and that is not what you want.


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## pint of lager (28/1/09)

I added plain white flour to a wit. Cannot remember the exact amount though, I think it was a kilo in a 45 litre batch. That would have made it 10% of the grist which sounds right.

Make sure you use rice gulls. (Love your work Tony.)


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## Jye (28/1/09)

No problems adding flour, checkout the Tropical Flower Wit in the recipe section of http://oz.craftbrewer.org/. One of our BABBs members has had a lot of success with the recipe and I know Chad has also brewed it with great results.


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## rwmingis (28/1/09)

Hi M.B.

I've done this with my "Witweisen". Just a few points.

Don't forget to raise your FGDB for your flour up by about 10%. I used 87% FYI and I hit my target overall efficiency spot on. (used 1 EBC for bleached flour and colour was as close as it could be, probably should be 0 though.) 

I mixed all my flour evenly with the grain prior to doughing in. The thinking is that if it's powder evenly distributed amongst all the grain, it won't clump, and it didn't.

I used heaps of rice hulls (450gm) for half a kilo of flour. It's overkill, but hey, never had a stuck mash. You could probably do with less. Normally I use 300gm. 

Be careful with adding too much starch post mash, it could affect body and taste, you don't wanna drink bread.

Flour Power  

Rob


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## dr K (28/1/09)

> the idea of adding flour confuses me. Why exactly are you adding it? What does flour add to a wheat beer?


 Wheat actually !
Raw wheat is really the right gear for a Wit. Raw wheat is a shzt to crack and a shzt to mash. I do not brew a lot of Wits and when I do they they are generally low gravity summer slinging beers and when I do I use use cheap generic white flour at 50% and NO rice hulls. I do however mix it thoroughly with the barley by running it under the mill , slowly. I only just crack the tap on my mashtun and do a slow deliberate run-off with no stuck sparge.
There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that wheat flour wits actually drop bright sometimes.

K


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## Chad (28/1/09)

Jye said:


> No problems adding flour, checkout the Tropical Flower Wit in the recipe section of http://oz.craftbrewer.org/. One of our BABBs members has had a lot of success with the recipe and I know Chad has also brewed it with great results.


Yep. I've done the TFW recipe, and just going over the last time I brewed it, it has 44% flour (2.25kg/24L). Use plenty of rice hulls  . Plan to brew this again in the next week or two. I have found that using the flour makes for a much lighter, sparkling and refreshing Wit.


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## dr K (28/1/09)

Rice hulls need are few washes (I know its unrelated but when I cook my favorite basmasti I rinse it in fact massage it it till the water runs clear but this is a starch thing not related to brewing in any way) before you use them..
Whack a third of cup of rice hulls into a cup of mash temp water for 60 minutes then have a smell, if you cannot smell anything then taste the less than xtal clear liquor, if nothing is still apparent then you sleep soundly in the knowledge that your beer is superior to Megaswill.


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## TidalPete (29/1/09)

Chad said:


> Yep. I've done the TFW recipe, and just going over the last time I brewed it, it has 44% flour (2.25kg/24L). Use plenty of rice hulls  . Plan to brew this again in the next week or two. I have found that using the flour makes for a much lighter, sparkling and refreshing Wit.



Chad Old Son,

I have had this recipe from Graham Sanders for ages & still haven't tried it out. Your link is not working for me so I presume that this is very similar?

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Yep. I've done the TFW recipe, and just going over the last time I brewed it, it has 44% flour (2.25kg/24L). Use plenty of rice hulls . Plan to brew this again in the next week or two. I have found that using the flour makes for a much lighter, sparkling and refreshing Wit. Belgian Wit (using wheat flour)

Category: 12. BELGIAN and FRENCH ALE
Style: Belgian Wit
Recipe Name: Tropical Flower Wit (of sorts)
Brewer's Name: Graham Sanders
Brewing Method: Mash
Starting Gravity: 1.053
Ending Gravity: 1.008-1.010
Alcohol (w/w%): around 5%
Bitterness (IBU): 17
Colour (SRM): Bloody Light
Specification Comments: This beer is made with plain white flour. You may instead used flaked or crushed wheat, in which case, up the amount by 10-20% to account for the yield difference. Do use lots of rice hulls to aid sparging.
Size of Batch: 38
Batch Size Unit: Litres
Extract Efficiency: 95%
Fermentables: 3.5 kg Pilsner Malt (Galaxy is good as it has a high glutenase level to aid in breaking down the wheat gums)
3.0 kg White Wheat Flour
0.3 kg Rolled Oats
Hop Additions: 45 grams low alpha Tettnanger 60 minutes boil
15 grams Goldings 10 minutes 
15 grams Goldings strike
Wort Preparation: A 2 and a half decoction is employed. Water is treated with salts to 50ppm Ca. Sodium Bimet added to stop oxidisation. Mix is 2.5 litres per kg of grain.
1. 1 kg of crushed grain is heated to 50C. All the flour mixed in. Raised to 68C and held for 30 minutes.
2. This is added to rest of grain and water. Temperature levels out to around mid 40C. Hold for 30 minutes
3. Lift a small proportion (25%). Raise to 70C hold 20 minutes, and then boil for 5 minutes. Add back to main mash.
4. Temp will level out mid 50C. Hold for 30 minutes.
5. Lift 35-40% of mash, raise to 70C, hold for 30 minutes, and boil then for 5 minutes, add then back to main mash.
6. Temp levels out at 68C, hold for an hour, then sparge.
Boiling and Cooling: Boil for 60 minutes
Other additions
30 grams of dried orange peel, 20 minutes from end
50 grams of lightly crushed coriander, 10 minutes from end
30 grams of lightly crushed coriander, 30 grams of mandarin peel, 0.5 teaspoon cumin, secret ingredient X at strike
Other Additions: A sour mash is done 2 days before hand with 5% of the grain bill, this is added to the mash.
Yeast Information: Yeast culture from Hoegaarden, fermented at 18C.
Fermentation Details: Ferment at 18C for a week.
Skim beer of all scum for super clean taste.
Other Brewing Information: pH is more critical here than people realise. Mash pH should level out at 5.1 from the sour mash, and sparge water pH should also be a little low at around 5.5.
Competition Results: Its fame speaks for itself. All who make this beer testify its worth the effort. Competitions won around the world with this recipe.
Recipe File Format: Text

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Giving it a lot of food for thought.

TP :beer:


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## monkeybusiness (29/1/09)

Thanks for the replies guys.

I decided not to brew last night after the first few replies but am back on the flour wagon now. The Graham Sanders recipe looks pretty hard core compared to what I was heading for so I should be OK provided I use enough rice hulls.

Dr K, I'd not heard of washing rice hulls. Thanks for the heads up. Do you do a B-glucan rest? I've read that this can help stop the flour gumming up and was going to head down that path.

Would the plain white flour be better than the wholemeal flour to give a whiter wit?

Swinging Beef, I'll take your advice and make a little gravy for the kettle.

Terrtitory Brew, dang you must have some time on your hands (or know the Nowra area). Anyway well spotted and thanks for the local raw wheat source. hadn't thought of checking the local agricultural suppliers. derr


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## muckanic (29/1/09)

A couple of points:

1. Flours vary widely in their protein content, and consequently in their stuck sparge potential (assuming no protein rest, which isn't clear in this case). From lowest to highest content, it would be cornflour, cakemaking flour, breadmaking flour. If it's wholemeal, it's probably breadmaking. With 50% cornflour at least, rice hulls are unnecessary.

2. However, a potential problem that hasn't been mentioned yet is that even if the sparge goes swimmingly, you can still wind up with a wort that is all fluffy deposit and no liquid. It may boil without scorching but still look more like a suspension than a solution. In that case, you need to get serious about filtration, eg, by passing the brew through polyester fibre.


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## Thirsty Boy (29/1/09)

To lessen the probability of a gluey mash - you can do a nice beta glucan-protein rest to knock out some of the stickier stuff, both glucans and protiens.

Before you mash, take your flour and about 0.5 kg of crushed pale/pilsner malt and put em in a pot with 4L of 43 degree water. This should give you a mash temp of about 40degrees, not to important, just aiming for about 40.

Stick it on the stove and slowly heat it up to 63degrees or whatever your planned main mash temperature is going to be - stirring constantly and pausing at 43-45 and again at 50-52. It will be claggy as hell at first, but you will notice as the mash progresses, it loosens up and becomes much more liquid.

When you get the temp to the same as your planned main mash - mash in your main mash and dump in the glucan mash.

The beta glucan / protien rest will make a fair difference in the viscosity of the wort and hopefully save you any potential trouble with a sticky mash - raising the whole kaboodle to a mash out temp will also help increase wort viscosity and lautering ease.

TB


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## rwmingis (29/1/09)

TidalPete said:


> Yep. I've done the TFW recipe, and just going over the last time I brewed it, it has 44% flour (2.25kg/24L). Use plenty of rice hulls . Plan to brew this again in the next week or two. I have found that using the flour makes for a much lighter, sparkling and refreshing Wit. Belgian Wit (using wheat flour)




Ooohhh, so have you figured out what "secret ingredient X" at strikeout is? Would love to know.

With regards to washing the rice hulls, I've never done this and been plenty happy with the results, I don't wash my grain & husks either.  

What might I be letting into my beers, not worried about colour.


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## dr K (29/1/09)

I understand X = Cardamon
I also am not concerned about laeching a bit colour out of my rice hulls, as I said sort of mash em by themselves, you will get a definite cedar box aroma, this clearly also happens to your rice hull mashed beers, as I said if you cant detect then frankly just do not worry aroma thresholds vary from smell to smell and person to person, perhaps I am just sensitive to that aroma or perhaps I am wrong in my opinion that such a smell is not appropriate in a wit. Your choice.

K


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## rwmingis (29/1/09)

dr K said:


> I understand X = Cardamon
> I also am not concerned about laeching a bit colour out of my rice hulls, as I said sort of mash em by themselves, you will get a definite cedar box aroma, this clearly also happens to your rice hull mashed beers, as I said if you cant detect then frankly just do not worry aroma thresholds vary from smell to smell and person to person, perhaps I am just sensitive to that aroma or perhaps I am wrong in my opinion that such a smell is not appropriate in a wit. Your choice.
> 
> K




Fair call, I will rinse when doing delicate beers. Any indication as to how much Cardamon seed per litre of finished beer?

Sorry to be off topic.

Cheers

Rob


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## monkeybusiness (30/1/09)

Well, just cubed my wit and it all went pretty smoothly. had the 1kg flour and 300g oats with some of the malted grain in a mini mash for a glucan rest before adding to the rest of the grain pretty much as Thirsty Boy suggested. No problems with the flour clumping or it being too gluey. Couple of dough balls but 5min of stirring an squashing against the side of the pot sorted that out.

Used about 300g of rice hulls in about 4.5kg of grain & flour and had no problems sparging as long as I didn't rush it. Got excited on the second sparge run and it did set like concrete, but a bit of a stir, recirculate and I was on my way again. Didn't bother with a mashout.

Out of the kettle the colour was bang on for that cloudy white you expect for a wit. Tasted good out of the kettle so now just have to wait and see how the final product turns out. :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy (30/1/09)

nice work. Glad it went well.

I tried using wheatbix (homebrand) as my source of unmalted wheat - there was some small issue with sticking....... but it got made and the Wit was good.

Have no doubt that yours will be too.

Cheers

TB


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## muckanic (30/1/09)

I know of one Belgian mob (not especially artisanal) who use star anise - possibly X. One aspect that never seems to receive much attention is use of alcohol to extract more oils, ie, dry spicing. It certainly works for coriander, although I understand that the dried peel actually needs a boil (and prolly doesn't have too much oil content after being dehydrated anyway).


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## Snow (30/1/09)

Since Graham named it "Tropical Flower Wit", I always assumed the secret ingredient was a tropical flower, or seeds from the flowering plant. Or maybe he meant "Tropical Flour Wit", referring to the flour in the recipe?


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