# Why is PBW so expensive?



## JoshAsh (21/8/14)

Done a bit of reading thanks to these forums, and I've picked up the main ingredients of PBW from a cleaning chemical supplier, Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Percarbonate.... 

Around 2-3 bucks per kilo landed for a close PBW clone minus surfactants and water softeners! 
I don't know why PBW itself is so dear, seems excessive unless there's something else in there we don't know about??


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## Lodan (21/8/14)

I feel the overheads Five Star of being an approved cleaning chemical provider for commercial breweries are what makes the PBW product more expensive than an equivalent made at home.
Think of costs such as verifying the quality/purity of ingredients, manufacturing/blending of the cleaning agents, packaging, sales etc. it is the cost for a business to be profitable


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## Fat Bastard (21/8/14)

Small volumes sold to (mostly) kit brewers + LHBS profit margin.

Napisan works quite well, but if you can get enough folks together, a bulk buy of Sodium Metabisulphate & Metaslicate will sort you out for a year or two.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/14)

Dont forget that those that supply you with the finished pre packed product have legal obligations, along with all the operational, packing and distribution costs.

Those costs add up.


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## dicko (22/8/14)

PBW from a retailer in the USA is $230.00 usd. for a 50lb tub so import costs aussie dollar and mark up make it pretty expensive in Aus.

It is a great product and the bottom line is wether you want to pay the retail price of mix it yourself.


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## Batz (22/8/14)

dicko said:


> PBW from a retailer in the USA is $230.00 usd. for a 50lb tub so import costs aussie dollar and mark up make it pretty expensive in Aus.
> 
> It is a great product and the bottom line is wether you want to pay the retail price of mix it yourself.


It is a great product but importing from the US seems a bit silly, why doesn't an Aussie firm make a knock-off?


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## Yob (22/8/14)

Damn... Your mate just got the mixer too 

Could call it GBC... Granulated brewery cleaner.. Copywrite pending


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## glenos (22/8/14)

Batz said:


> It is a great product but importing from the US seems a bit silly, why doesn't an Aussie firm make a knock-off?


They do its just called someting else. Looking at the SDS' for both product, PBW doesn't have enough info on thiers, this would be a pretty close match.
http://www.agar.com.au/Browse-Products/Safety-Bleach-Sanitises-and-Destains.aspx

Here's a big bucket of sodium percarbonate, http://store.centralcleaning.com.au/browse/ProductDetail.asp?code=T7021


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## pcmfisher (22/8/14)

JoshAsh said:


> Done a bit of reading thanks to these forums, and I've picked up the main ingredients of PBW from a cleaning chemical supplier, Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Percarbonate....
> 
> Around 2-3 bucks per kilo landed for a close PBW clone minus surfactants and water softeners!
> I don't know why PBW itself is so dear, seems excessive unless there's something else in there we don't know about??


For the same reason that the ingredients in a bottle of White King probably cost about 5 cents.

Lucrative business this chemical business.
Nearly as good as cosmetics................


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## Truman42 (22/8/14)

Fat Bastard said:


> Small volumes sold to (mostly) kit brewers + LHBS profit margin.
> 
> Napisan works quite well, but if you can get enough folks together, a bulk buy of Sodium Metabisulphate & Metaslicate will sort you out for a year or two.


Did I hear you say your going to arrange the next bulk buy???


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

Batz said:


> It is a great product but importing from the US seems a bit silly, why doesn't an Aussie firm make a knock-off?


I agree but its covered by a patent as far as I know, you know like Viagra
Well actually Viagra is no longer protected by a patent as it expired.
Boners on the cheap now 
Nev


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## manticle (22/8/14)

Mine are usually free.


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## Florian (22/8/14)

But they might not be so forever...


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

manticle said:


> Mine are usually free.


Yes but I am talking about giving one not taking one h34r:


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## mofox1 (22/8/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Yes but I am talking about giving one not taking one h34r:


Damn! You want fries with that?


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## Spiesy (22/8/14)

dicko said:


> PBW from a retailer in the USA is $230.00 usd. for a 50lb tub so import costs aussie dollar and mark up make it pretty expensive in Aus.
> 
> It is a great product and the bottom line is wether you want to pay the retail price of mix it yourself.


Spot on. Importing a hazardous chemical is SUPER expensive. Believe me.
Freight alone from the States is usually quite expensive, but when you factor in the additional charges - it's crazy.

Unfortunately, with a lot of the products us homebrewers cherish, Australia gets burnt pretty heavily with freight charges, duties and taxes.

Liquid yeasts for example, White Labs and Wyeast in particular get hit with around 50% freight charges as they're air frighted, arriving within 3-4 days time, door-to-door. The yeast arrives cold and in top nick, but we pay for it.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

Spiesy said:


> Spot on. Importing a hazardous chemical is SUPER expensive. Believe me.
> Freight alone from the States is usually quite expensive, but when you factor in the additional charges - it's crazy.
> 
> Unfortunately, with a lot of the products us homebrewers cherish, Australia gets burnt pretty heavily with freight charges, duties and taxes.
> ...


I hear you brother, even more expensive to get it to WA as well, about 60% of the wyeast cost is Fedex charge !
I too inquired about PBW and starsan direct from the states, by time all charges were added on it just is not viable.
Nev


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## pk.sax (27/8/14)

I was having a gander on the Internet about sodium metasilicate and discovered this product:

http://www.ecostore.com.au/products/auto-dish-powder

Contains both active ingredients of pbw and a few other 'eco' dishwasher things. Made for the job? I'll definitely be looking in the shop for it and any other generic dishwasher powder for their ingredient mix. At 10 bucks a kilo for this one it's not exactly expensive.....


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## peas_and_corn (27/8/14)

I don't really want my equipment smelling like lemon or grapefruit


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## pk.sax (27/8/14)

I've got no issues rubbing down the kettle with a lemon. Citric washes off easily and is perfectly food safe.

Will look in the supermarket and see if there are some unscented ones though.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/14)

Spiesy said:


> Spot on. Importing a hazardous chemical is SUPER expensive. Believe me.


Prob cheaper to import it mixed with cocain or heroin....


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## Spiesy (28/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Prob cheaper to import it mixed with cocain or heroin....


Not to mention more fun.


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## barneey (28/8/14)

Cheapest way to buy the stuff is to group buy a 22.5kg tub of the stuff and split it 5 ways (4.5kg each). Just in the process of doing a 2nd group buy with some UK members brings the price down from £20.00 a kg to £7.55 a kg.


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## Yob (28/8/14)

Or... Buy 25kg sacks of percabonate and metasillicate and mix it 3/1 for about $1.50kg


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## mofox1 (28/8/14)

Yob said:


> Or... Buy 25kg sacks of percabonate and metasillicate and mix it 3/1 for about $1.50kg


3:1? I thought it was 2:1...

Anyway - bulkbuy anyone?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (28/8/14)

It was 4:1 at the time of the bulk buy when I got some and mixed it??? Lol


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## Yob (28/8/14)

It's been so long since I mixed any up TBH.. Usually the percabonate is enough for my cleaning needs, wolfy added the mix rates and extras needed to make home made PBW back in one of my bulk buys for perc and met. 

I can't be arsed looking it up though sorry


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## HBHB (28/8/14)

For a business to legitimately import anything and play by the rules, you've got to fork out a heap of dollars that are generally poorly understood.

You see, we don't only pay GST on the goods themselves but the freight component, the clearance fees on this end, the transport fees on the suppliers side & if you use a logistics & shipping agent to fill out the piles of paperwork for a pallet that may contain 20 different items, then there's Australian road freight plus a $50 fee to get a pallet off a truck at receiving.

Freight from the USA with most brewing supplies tends to work out at around 50% of the cost of the gear, but can blow out to 80% with DG rated stuff on board.

So, if you bring in $10K worth of stuff, we'll call it $15K post freight, plus fees of about another $2K, then plus GST $1.7K, then ship it to In store and put a few % on it over your gross business expenses and that pallet of gear that was only worth $10K is now a liability worth $18.7K before you even mark it up with a bread and butter margin to maybe help keep the lights on.

I can assure you, it isn't the retailers that are responsible for the prices.


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## AdelaideHillsBrewer (28/8/14)

Really does it matter, For the little amount One uses after each clean down. Dont be so tight guys and just fork out for the real stuff.


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## Yob (28/8/14)

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66741-eoi-sodium-metasilicate/?p=946502

Ok Found it... dayumm Ive done a lot of these buys :lol:

For clarity here so you dont have to follow the link unless you want to..
_________________________________________________________________________________________
"Just an FYI, to make the equivalent of PBW, to the 70% Sodium Percarbonate 30% Sodium Metasilicate mix add:
Sodium laurilsulfate (detergent/surfacant, suggested mix 0.5-1%) is about $8/kg
EDTA (water softer, limescale remover, suggested mix 1-5%) is about $7/kg (_only available in 25kg bags_)"
_________________________________________________________________________________________

So yeah, 3:1 Ratio is about right.


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## mofox1 (28/8/14)

Yob said:


> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66741-eoi-sodium-metasilicate/?p=946502
> 
> Ok Found it... dayumm Ive done a lot of these buys :lol:
> 
> ...


And you said you weren't going to look it up, you big softy.


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## DU99 (28/8/14)

Must check and see how much perc i have left.


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## Yob (28/8/14)

must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 
must... not... arrange... bulk... buys.... 

at least until all the SS FV's, SNIPA Glassware, Rogue Stout Glassware *and ton+ of NFH's grains has all been collected..


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## SmallFry (28/8/14)

All I read was 'Yob... bulk... buy'

I'll go you quarters in a bag of Sodium Perc, okay?

Thanks for stepping up to the plate and organizing yet another bulk buy, Yob. A true champ...

:lol:


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## mofox1 (28/8/14)

Yob said:


> must... not... arrange... bulk... buys....
> must... not... arrange... bulk... buys....
> must... not... arrange... bulk... buys....
> must... not... arrange... bulk... buys....
> ...


Come on... Hucon chemical supplies is just sooo close to you. Hardly any effort at all really.

I'm choosing to ignore the fact that it's even closer to me - you're the official BB guy. 

Speaking of a ton of grain - where the heck are you going to put 40+ bags of malt?

*Edit: *OT about the grain. Sorry... maybe. Still curious though. Still OT. Sorry.


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## Yob (28/8/14)

Under or in the bed


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## mofox1 (28/8/14)

Yob said:


> Under or in the bed


Okay. Now I'm sorry. But I'm sure someone will take up the invitation Yob.


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## DU99 (28/8/14)

:icon_offtopic:  wouldn't mind a speciality grain bulk buy either


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## pk.sax (29/8/14)

Only dishwasher with sodium metasilicate in it was the one I named above. Rest were phosphate based. This one is mostly plant based. Will let know results, have a really dirty kettle to wash.


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## pk.sax (6/9/14)

Ok, time for that review.

Had to clean out a ss saucepan that I burnt some rice into. Boiled with this cleaner and it did a stellar job of loosening the crud. Not completely gone but still quite good. Next hit with acid cleaner and subsequent rub with a lime and overnight soak did the job.

Now, for the brew pot. Here is a story. I'd brewed a few Sundays ago and left the pot to sit outside overnight without cleaning meaning to do it the next day. Got a call at midnight and had to rush out at 6 in the morning overseas. Back a week later the thing was covered in moulds of all hues!
Hit it with some industrial phosphoric acid first, overnight soak and rinsed the next day. All good so far.

Now, I put some of that pbw like dishwasher powder in there and filled it up with water - cold. Left to soak for a week until I got a chance today. It ate through everything in its path! The ss bits were fine. The aluminium was exfoliated out of every pit/groove in that pot. Lots of pitting in the base and sides. Pot is still usable but I'm gonna have to watch out and make certain to sanitise it before use and clean harder to ensure there isn't trapped crud in those pits now.

Basically, I would never recommend extended soaking of aluminium with pbw or any other caustic cleaners.


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