# Seeking Advice For My First Extract Batch



## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Hi,
I've done 2 kit based batches and for my next one I'm going to have a go at an extract + speciality grain brew. I have most of my ingredients lined up already so now I just need to figure out the quantities. I want to make an American Pale Ale.

Heres my ingredient list so far (for 23L batch):

* Safale US-05 Yeast 1 packet (11.5g)
* Medium Crystal Malt not sure of amount yet, probably 250g ( I have 1kg)
* Simcoe Hops pellets (for bittering) not sure of amount yet
* Cascade Hops pellets (for finishing) not sure of amount yet
* 3kg Liquid malt extract perhaps 1 can of Coopers Light for the boil and 1 jar of a cheaper amber (Brewmaster) to add after the boil

Any advice on quantities to use? More details of my brew plan in my latest blog:
http://beerandgarden.com/planning-my-first-extract-batch/

Cheers,
Aidan


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

I would suggest you grab yourself a copy of Beesmith, makes life so much easier when formulating recipes, and really you'll need some sort of brewing programe so you can hit your IBU's, Acl and such. But I would say go with what you've intended 250g of Med Crystal is a good starting point IMO, personally I'd use up to 400g but it depends on what IBU your after. For the hop amounts you'll need to give us the AA% for any chance of being accurate


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> For the hop amounts you'll need to give us the AA% for any chance of being accurate



These are the actual hops I've purchased:
http://www.brewshop.co.nz/hops/hops-cascade.html (Alpha Rating: 9.0)
http://www.brewshop.co.nz/hops/hops-simcoe.html (Alpha Rating: 12.2)

What I have in mind when I think American Pale Ale is a nice hoppy beer like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

Hey I just chucked some numbers into the Kit and extract beer spreadsheet (See this thread)

Hop Additions for a total of approx 38.2 IBU

Simcoe 30g for 60mins (27.88IBU)
Cascade 30g for 15mins (10.37IBU)
Cascade 30g for 0mins (flameout; 0IBU)

Try the 250g of medium crystal and see how you go. You may find its not sweet enough, but its all up to personal taste. It just depends on what extract you use, and make sure you get unhopped cans, otherwise you will end up with a bit more bitterness.


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

Ok, this is only a rushed one because we're flat out at work (first day dack), hope it helps,

21L batch
3kg LME
250g crystal steeped
20g cascade @ flameout
20g Cascade @ 20 mins
10g Simcoe @ 60 mins
US-05, 2 packs

Dry hop if you want, bout 15-20g will suffice

I've based this on a 10L boil and using one tin of LME (1.5kg) in it, adding the other at flameout. It's at 35 IBU, adding another 5g Simcoe at 60 mins will bump it up near 45 IBU so use your own palate to decide where you want it. Color will be about 16 EBC, personally I'd up the crystal to 350g for a bit more of it and also some backbone for those hop additions.

Done this in a bit of a hurry so if I've missed anything someone will point it out


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> Ok, this is only a rushed one because we're flat out at work (first day dack), hope it helps,
> 
> 21L batch
> 3kg LME
> ...



Ah bugger... didn't account for boil volume. Disregard mine, and go for what Pennywise said. You won't necesarilly need to use 2 packs of US05, just re-hydrate it.


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Siborg said:


> Hey I just chucked some numbers into the Kit and extract beer spreadsheet (See this thread)
> 
> Hop Additions for a total of approx 38.2 IBU
> 
> ...



Thanks mate! I actually took Pennywise's advice and downloaded the Beersmith software - it's pretty cool. I plugged in some similar numbers to the Liberty Pale Ale recipe in John Palmer's book and came up with:

Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 9.00 L 
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.25 kg Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 52.94 % <- after the boil
1.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 35.29 % 
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 11.76 % 
20.00 gm Simcoe [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 23.9 IBU 
20.00 gm NZ Cascade [9.00 %] (30 min) Hops 13.5 IBU 
20.00 gm NZ Cascade [9.00 %] (15 min) Hops 8.7 IBU 
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 (Fermentis) Yeast-Ale 


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.60 % 
Bitterness: 46.2 IBU 
Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 13.7 SRM 

I actually had to increase the malt to 2.5 x 1.5kg can/jar to come out with a reasonable abv. (Or I guess I could just add some sugar instead?) My hops weights are only 2/3 of yours and yet the IBU is coming out quite high. Maybe it's because I'm only adding 1 tin to the 9L boil.


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> Ok, this is only a rushed one because we're flat out at work (first day dack), hope it helps,
> 
> 21L batch
> 3kg LME
> ...



Cool. Pretty close to what I came up with using Palmer's recipe and Beersmith. I'll probably follow your advice and go a bit lower with the Simcoe - maybe split the differ to 15g and also go later with last Cascade addition.


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

The amount of hops you need to add will be dependant on the boil volume, the boil gravity, and to a lesser extent boil vigor (sp?). This is why brewing software is pretty important, take alot of the guess work out. If you click on the liquid extract in BS (while viewing your recipe), you can check a box "add after boil" or "late extract, boil for__mins". You don't need to add all the extract at the start of the boil, best to aim for a gravity of 1040 or there abouts so your hop utilisation is not wasted. A good rule is 100g LDME per litre of water will give you about 1040, LME is 20% water so for ease sake we'll just say 120g of LME in 1L water. So your 9L boil should have 1.1kg of the LME in it, I'd just use a whole tin to make it easier, hops don't cost that much h34r:


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## bum (4/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> Batch Size: 23.00 L
> Boil Size: 9.00 L
> Boil Time: 60 min
> 
> ...


I'd seriously look at either moving the cascade additions later (I'd think about 15/20 and 0) for more of the SNPA thing if that's what you're still chasing and dropping the crystal a bit (in fact, I'd definitely do it more like Pennywise's example). If you don't mind straying from your SNPA target a little, don't be afraid to use a little of the simcoe late too. Bloody lovely hop at both ends that one.


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

bum said:


> I'd seriously look at either moving the cascade additions later (I'd think about 15/20 and 0) for more of the SNPA thing if that's what you're still chasing and dropping the crystal a bit (in fact, I'd definitely do it more like Pennywise's example). If you don't mind straying from your SNPA target a little, don't be afraid to use a little of the simcoe late too. Bloody lovely hop at both ends that one.


Yep

Go with a 15 min and a 0 min addition of cascade, and increase your 60 min addition for a few extra IBU's if you still wanna be around the 45 mark.

Don't put too much crystal in!!! I did this once and it was a waste of a batch. Tasted like thick, syrupy sugar beer... Less is more, man. go for the 250-350 mark for starters, then try a little more.

If you want to add extra gravity, don't ruin your beer with sugar. Use light dry malt extract (LDME). There is an option in beersmith to include some as an ingredient.

But boil volume and gravity will have a big effect on hop utilisation (basically how well the alpha acid is converted into bitterness)

p.s. glad you're getting into beersmith. Its a great program. Just don't get too ambitious with the recipes and maybe ask someone on here first before you go and brew something you've toyed with. I wish I had a while ago, but I've learnt my lesson. Oh, and it won't take you long to work out what reasonable quantities are. Look at the percentages as a decent guide. For example, you don't want any more than 10% crystal in the batch but 10% is a maximum and will be quite sweet.


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

Siborg said:


> Don't put too much crystal in!!! I did this once and it was a waste of a batch. Tasted like thick, syrupy sugar beer... Less is more, man. go for the 250-350 mark for starters, then try a little more.
> 
> If you want to add extra gravity, don't ruin your beer with sugar. Use light dry malt extract (LDME). There is an option in beersmith to include some as an ingredient.




Just adding to these points.
Becuase I didn't realise you had Amber, must have skipped that bit  I would not use 500g crystal, keep it at the 250g you had at the start.
In regards to the use of sugar, you'll be fine for a few hundred grams to bump up the OG, just keep in mind it wont bump up you FG, because it'll ferment out. But, like Siborg is suggesting, too much can turn a brew on it's head. 5% you'll be fine in an APA


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Thanks for all the great responses Pennywise, Siborg & bum - this is really helpful. I've tweaked the recipe accordingly. So here's what I have now:

Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 10.00 L
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

2.25 kg Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 52.94 % [add after boil]
1.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 35.29 % 
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.88 % 
20.00 gm Simcoe [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 23.2 IBU 
25.00 gm NZ Cascade [9.00 %] (20 min) Hops 13.0 IBU 
25.00 gm NZ Cascade [9.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
0.25 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5.88 % 
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 (Fermentis) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.95 % 
Bitterness: 36.1 IBU 
Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 11.6 SRM


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

If that was my recipe I'd be happy to make it, looks good. BU:GU ratio is a good starting point for an APA, I usually have mine up near 8 but like I said before it's a personal preferance so if you like 36 IBU then stick with that, and if need be, adjust next time. It will still be a nice beer regardless


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> Thanks for all the great responses Pennywise, Siborg & bum - this is really helpful. I've tweaked the recipe accordingly. So here's what I have now:
> 
> Batch Size: 23.00 L
> Boil Size: 10.00 L
> ...


Looks good. If you want it a bit more bitter, maybe add 5g to your 60 and 20 min additions, but still should be nice

I'd recommend using LDME over sugar, but its up to you.

I feel like brewing an APA now. Just thinking of all that cascade is making me thirsty!


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> If that was my recipe I'd be happy to make it, looks good. BU:GU ratio is a good starting point for an APA, I usually have mine up near 8 but like I said before it's a personal preferance so if you like 36 IBU then stick with that, and if need be, adjust next time. It will still be a nice beer regardless


what's BU:GU ratio?


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Siborg said:


> Looks good. If you want it a bit more bitter, maybe add 5g to your 60 and 20 min additions, but still should be nice
> 
> I'd recommend using LDME over sugar, but its up to you.
> 
> I feel like brewing an APA now. Just thinking of all that cascade is making me thirsty!



Yeah, I think I'll tweak it a wee bit to up the bitterness slightly, maybe just increase the simcoe to 25g (that'll take it up to 41.9IBU)

Well it's just a small amount of sugar, final gravity is already at the high end according to style guide, and it would be another $11 for a 500g pack of DME, so I'll prob just stick with the sugar.


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

BU:GU is Bittering Units/Gravity units. Basically if you have a 50 IBU beer and it's OG is 1050, that ratio is 1. Some people like to use this as a guide to their beers bitterness/sweetness balance. This link has some good info http://beercolor.netfirms.com/balance.html


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

One question that's still nagging me (I've been asking it in other threads), *Is there a downside to doing a very small boil for the hop additions?* e.g. just 2L water and enough malt to bring it to 1.020. It certainly would be very fast/easy to cool and would maximise hop utillisation with a lower SG. Granted you would possibly need a bit more water to steep the crystal, but leaving that out of the equation, why are extract brewers going for larger boils? There must be a reason but I have not found it yet.


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

To be honest I have no idea how low a volume would be detrimental, but when I started extract brews I stuck with 10L boils. I think one of the issues about boiling small amounts is that after an hour you wouldn't have much left at all except a thick sticky mess (prolly much like the kits, but burned to the shit house) if you only started with 2-3L. I know with my old extract "system" after an hour I was left with 8L so no way would I have been able to only boil 2L

Edit: it really doesn't take that long to cool 10L down in the sink. And don't forget you can chill some top up water (your other 10L) in the fridge the night before so that will bring it down quick smart.


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> I think one of the issues about boiling small amounts is that after an hour you wouldn't have much left at all except a thick sticky mess (prolly much like the kits, but burned to the shit house) if you only started with 2-3L. I know with my old extract "system" after an hour I was left with 8L so no way would I have been able to only boil 2L


Good point, that must be the reason I was looking for. Leads to a few more questions though - 

Is it bad to top up your water during the boil? 
Do the bittering calculations take the evaporation into account? 
Does a 10L boil mean 10L of water plus additional vol of your ME at the start of the boil with the expectation that this will be well reduced by the end of the boil? 
Why do trusted sources such as John Palmer instruct to boil all the malt in half the water when the higher boil SG significantly decreases hops utillisation?


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> Good point, that must be the reason I was looking for. Leads to a few more questions though -
> 
> Is it bad to top up your water during the boil?
> Do the bittering calculations take the evaporation into account?
> ...


Definitely not bad to top up during the boil.

AFAIK, boil volume plays a big part on hop utilisation. I think the bigger the boil, the more the hops will be rolled around by a "rolling" boil, therefore you will get more bitterness out of what you throw in. Using a smaller boil, you would have to use more hops to get a similar bitterness level to a larger boil. It comes down to efficiency


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> Good point, that must be the reason I was looking for. Leads to a few more questions though -
> 
> Is it bad to top up your water during the boil?
> Do the bittering calculations take the evaporation into account?
> ...



1. I wouldn't, because I'm not sure how to take that into account for hop utilisation. But that's just me, and that's the only reason I have, so I'm not saying you shouldn't, just I wouldn't
2. Yes, BS should if you've set it up correctly, which you can only do after a few runs on YOUR system, I started at 10% and worked from there over the course of a few brewdays
3. No. 10L boil means 10L total, not your extract and then 10L of water
4. I'd say it would have something to do with sanitising the ingredients, not something you have to worry about when using fresh extract tins. Some suggest even dry malt extract wouldn't need to be boiled, even from an open pack. I'm starting to think likewise


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> 2. Yes, BS should if you've set it up correctly, which you can only do after a few runs on YOUR system, I started at 10% and worked from there over the course of a few brewdays


I hadn't noticed that setting but now that I look at it I see the default is 9%. I guess I'll just go with that for now and compare with actual then adjust as necessary.



Pennywise said:


> 3. No. 10L boil means 10L total, not your extract and then 10L of water


A 1.5kg can would be about a litre, so then for a 10L boil you would add 9L of water plus your tin of ME, right? I'm thinking some markings on the pot would be handy.


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> A 1.5kg can would be about a litre, so then for a 10L boil you would add 9L of water plus your tin of ME, right? I'm thinking some markings on the pot would be handy.


Or a stick (wooden spoons work a treat)


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Siborg said:


> Or a stick (wooden spoons work a treat)


bloody good idea!


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

bum said:


> If you don't mind straying from your SNPA target a little, don't be afraid to use a little of the simcoe late too. Bloody lovely hop at both ends that one.


Do ya reckon Simcoe and Cascade go well together? I'm asking because on another forum I was told "_I don't suggest Simcoe as a bittering hop as you'll end up losing all that great aroma and flavor_." The guy suggested using only Cascade. Do you think there is any validity in that?


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## bum (4/1/11)

Yes and no - depends on your interpretation of the initial point. Simcoe is a lovely hop and it does seem to be hiding its light under a bushel to be using it for bittering only - but it is a good bittering hop so there's no reason not to use it as far as I am concerned. As for only using cascade - it's up to you, really, you'll need to use more of it than you would the simcoe but I'm sure it'd be a nice beer too. Me? I wouldn't be making any huge alterations to your hop schedule - I'd really only consider a touch of simcoe late (if you aren't set on the SNPA thing, I wouldn't do it if you are) and would definitely consider dry hopping with some cascade.


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

Mate, I've done an all cascade APA a while back and it was good. Keep this one as is and try all cascade or all amarillo for your next one. You can keep the majority of the grains/extract the sames (you may want to tweak a little), then try a single hop variety doing a 60, 20 or 15, and 0 min addition. Its a good way to learn a particular hop variety and what its bittering, flavour and aroma characters are.


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

bum said:


> Yes and no - depends on your interpretation of the initial point. Simcoe is a lovely hop and it does seem to be hiding its light under a bushel to be using it for bittering only - but it is a good bittering hop so there's no reason not to use it as far as I am concerned. As for only using cascade - it's up to you, really, you'll need to use more of it than you would the simcoe but I'm sure it'd be a nice beer too. Me? I wouldn't be making any huge alterations to your hop schedule - I'd really only consider a touch of simcoe late (if you aren't set on the SNPA thing, I wouldn't do it if you are) and would definitely consider dry hopping with some cascade.



I think I was actually misinterpeting that guy's comment - I was thinking he was talking about loosing all the flavour and aroma of the Cascade (like Simcoe would cancel it out or something). But now that I read it again after your comment I see he could have been talking about the Simcoe rflavour & aroma. I have read that the variety of bittering hops does not make much difference to the end result and all the flavour comes from the finishing hops so I was a bit confused by the comment.

I think I will keep this as a Cascade featured brew and I'll do a batch later featuring the simcoe so that I can learn the characteristics of each. I'm just wondering now, do you think I would be better doing an all Cascade version and then an all Simcoe version, or mix them up a bit? Is there a well known beer featuring Simcoe?


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Siborg said:


> Hey I just chucked some numbers into the Kit and extract beer spreadsheet (See this thread)


I've downloaded that spreadsheet (very nice piece of work) and had a play around. I put in the same recipe as I have in beersmith but resulting numbers are totally different from beersmith. I'm wondering if I've made some schoolboy error or something.

Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 10.00 L
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

2.25 kg Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 52.94 % [add after boil]
1.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 35.29 %
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.88 %
25.00 gm Simcoe [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 23.2 IBU
25.00 gm NZ Cascade [9.00 %] (20 min) Hops 13.0 IBU
25.00 gm NZ Cascade [9.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.25 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5.88 %
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 (Fermentis) Yeast-Ale 

*Beersmith Result:*
Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: *4.95 %*
Bitterness: *36.1 IBU*

*Spreadsheet Result:*
Est Original Gravity: 1.056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: *6.0 %*
Bitterness: *48.3 IBU*

The only difference I could find is the amount of LME used in the boil - the spreadsheet automatically calculates it to achieve 1.040 BG. So I adjusted it down in BS accordingly and it brings the IBU to 41.9 but that's still a long way from 48.3 and there is still the 1.05% difference in ABV. Any ideas what could be causing this?


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

It could be the method of calculation of hop utilization. There are three main calculations, Tinseth, Rager & Garetz and they vary way too much for my liking. Possibly the culprit? IMO you really jut need to stick to one and and get a feel for what it is


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

Pennywise said:


> It could be the method of calculation of hop utilization. There are three main calculations, Tinseth, Rager & Garetz and they vary way too much for my liking. Possibly the culprit? IMO you really jut need to stick to one and and get a feel for what it is


Well that could explain the IBU difference but what could explain the big ABV difference? 

And which would you trust most - Beersmith or spreadsheet?


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## beerandgarden (4/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> Well that could explain the IBU difference but what could explain the big ABV difference?
> 
> And which would you trust most - Beersmith or spreadsheet?



Putting the OG & FG numbers into an abv calculator I get 5.1% 5.7% instead of 4.95% and 6% (BS off by 0.15 and spreadsheet off by 0.3)


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

I would trust both of them. I haven't used the spread sheet but enough people to my liking have given it the thumbs up. There must be something in the setting that makethe big difference. I would expect a little variation either way though. Which program do you expect to use most? Keep using that one, although I'm not sure ianh's spread sheet does AG? So if yh plan on moving to that then......


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## kelbygreen (4/1/11)

spreadsheet adds the priming sugar in unless you select otherwise doesnt it??? not sure about beersmith cant remember lol, But I found the spread sheet to be within a few points of what it says. Also it could be the yeast attention as this needs to be adjusted with different yeast strains with US05 I found the spreadsheet was almost spot on the money most of the time but once used other strains it was off by a little. plus the new malt I got seems to be lighter then the muntons or coopers but could be the new hydrometer I am doubting it alot as reads .998 in water so that dont help lol


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## Pennywise (4/1/11)

It took awhile for me to understand Beersmith and most of the settings. From what's been posted on the boards thats abonus on ianh's spread sheet, because it's set basically to kits and extract there's prolly more detail in the specifics


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## beerandgarden (5/1/11)

Ok, I think I've finalised my recipe. I've decided to go all Cascade after getting some more input about Simcoe possibly overpowering the Cascade. Since I have a 100g pack I'll just use all of it and I'll use my Simcoe for another batch (an all Simcoe batch?). I've also pulled out the sugar as it should be strong enough without it. I also had to adjust down the % for the cascade to 7.7% after noticing that the packet says 7.7% instead of the 9% shown on the website I bought it from.

So here's my recipe for *Aidan's First All Cascade American Pale Ale*:

Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 10.00 L
Boil Time: 60 min

*Ingredients*
1.15 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 28.75 % [boil]
0.35 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 8.75 % [add at end of boil]
2.25 kg Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 56.25 % [add at end of boil]
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 % 
20.00 gm Cascade - NZ [7.70 %] (60 min) Hops 22.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade - NZ [7.70 %] (30 min) Hops 12.3 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade - NZ [7.70 %] (10 min) Hops 5.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade - NZ [7.70 %] (0 min) Hops - 
20.00 gm Cascade - NZ [7.70 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 (Fermentis) Yeast-Ale 

*Beer Profile (Beersmith)*
Est Original Gravity: 1.049 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.56 % 
Bitterness: 34.0 IBU
Est Color: 22.0 EBC

*Beer Profile (Spreadsheet)*
Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.4 % 
Bitterness: 35.9 IBU
Est Color: 24.3 EBC

*Beer Profile (Average)*
Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5 % 
Bitterness: 35 IBU
Est Color: 23 EBC


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## Siborg (5/1/11)

Looks good. Mate, cascade is an amazing hop. Full of grapefruity, citrusy goodness.

If you've forked out for beersmith (unless your still using the demo), get used to that and forget the spreadsheet. The thing to remember is that both of them may have different methods for calculating hop utilization and the ingredients the refer to (customisable in both) may be slightly different.

At the end of the day, these two programs are great guides to help you design a recipe, not make beer. That's your job

Hoping it goes well for you... now enough talk. get brewing!


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## Pennywise (5/1/11)

Do it


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## bum (5/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> some more input about Simcoe


What he's said makes no sense to me at all, to be honest. Simcoe will overpower the Cascade but then he goes on to recommend that a "more aggressive" bittering hop is better to use than Simcoe? The mind does truly boggle. Having said that, all Cascade will be very nice and most certainly does not constitute "bad advice".

Let us know how it goes.


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## Siborg (5/1/11)

bum said:


> What he's said makes no sense to me at all, to be honest. Simcoe will overpower the Cascade but then he goes on to recommend that a "more aggressive" bittering hop is better to use than Simcoe? The mind does truly boggle. Having said that, all Cascade will be very nice and most certainly does not constitute "bad advice".
> 
> Let us know how it goes.


That's kinda what I was thinking. If you're using something as a bittering hop, you're not going to get the oils that would give flavour and aroma, which may be overpowering if you put simcoe in as flavour and aroma additions.

Anyways, I have done all cascade before and its still damn tasty


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## beerandgarden (5/1/11)

You guys have all been a really great help and I've learned a lot since I started this thread. Beersmith and the spreadsheet are super tools for figuring out the quantities.

I'll be brewing it up next week when I get my current batch of kit beer out of the fermenter. I was thinking the same thing myself about simcoe but in any case all cascade will keep it simple so that I learn the characteristics of cascade without any confusion. I'll probably do an all simcoe batch later.

I'll report back on how it goes.
Cheers,
Aidan


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## beerandgarden (6/1/11)

This thread has been very educational to me and has covered a lot of different aspects of extract brewing. I reckon I've learned the most about brewing since reading _How To Brew_. So I've written up a blog post detailing what I've learned here - http://beerandgarden.com/first-extract-recipe/

Cheers,
Aidan


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## Brown_hound (6/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> This thread has been very educational to me and has covered a lot of different aspects of extract brewing. I reckon I've learned the most about brewing since reading _How To Brew_. So I've written up a blog post detailing what I've learned here - http://beerandgarden.com/first-extract-recipe/
> 
> Cheers,
> Aidan



G'day Aidan..

I've just popped over to your blog and it appears you've picked up heaps! You've really researched your stuff.

As you've learned first hand, there's so many incredibly knowledgeable figures around the place who are always willing to help, no matter how simple the question..

We ask, and we get tought... Without the slightest whisper of sarcasm, or 'stuff this newbie' mentality..


Do you mind if I suggest something? Tough if you do! :lol: 

You've learned about Beersmith (obviously still learning, as we all are). But it sound like you have the basics fairly well down pat.


Get a couple of extracts under your belt, do a bit of experimentation with your hops and a few different yeast strains etc.

Next thing: Jump dead set head first without a parachute into AG with BIAB.. 


There's nothing more gratifying than Drinking bloody nice stuff you've made from simple old Grains, Hops, Yeast and water... Yum!


All your favourite recipes you throw into Beersmith now, the program can automatically convert into grain recipes and vice versa.


The best part? It's cheap as chips to get started!

If you're curious about it check out PistolPatch's or Nick JD's guides on how to BIAB, then move onto BribieG's guide on how to in an urn..

As I said, get your bearings in Extract Brewing for a bit. In the meantime, you'll find those a fascinating read!


Good on you mate. Hope your first brew turns out a treat.


Hound.


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## beerandgarden (6/1/11)

Brown_hound said:


> ...
> 
> Do you mind if I suggest something? Tough if you do! :lol:
> 
> ...



Cheers mate, thanks for your faith in me! But to be honest I'm not in any rush to jump into AG just yet. I feel I have a lot of baby steps to take yet. Heck, I've just cracked open my very first brew this evening (and I'm experiencing a very satisfying buzz from it right now). It's a kit beer (Mangrove Jacks Munich Lager) and I'm very impressed (see here - http://beerandgarden.com/my-very-first-bot...f-my-own-beer/). My next batch is the extract APA for which the recipe was finalised in this thread, but I've got a Coopers Stout kit lined up after that - I've heard Guinness drinkers (of which I'm one) generally approve of the Coopers Stout so I'm real interested in trying it. So I guess it will kinda depend on how much room for improvement I feel there is after I've done a good few kit and extract batches vs. the extra effort. But being a hopelessly curious type I'll probably end up working my way there eventually...


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## Brown_hound (6/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> Cheers mate, thanks for your faith in me! But to be honest I'm not in any rush to jump into AG just yet. I feel I have a lot of baby steps to take yet. Heck, I've just cracked open my very first brew this evening (and I'm experiencing a very satisfying buzz from it right now). It's a kit beer (Mangrove Jacks Munich Lager) and I'm very impressed (see here - http://beerandgarden.com/my-very-first-bot...f-my-own-beer/). My next batch is the extract APA for which the recipe was finalised in this thread, but I've got a Coopers Stout kit lined up after that - I've heard Guinness drinkers (of which I'm one) generally approve of the Coopers Stout so I'm real interested in trying it. So I guess it will kinda depend on how much room for improvement I feel there is after I've done a good few kit and extract batches vs. the extra effort. But being a hopelessly curious type I'll probably end up working my way there eventually...




No worries mate...

Make sure to bear in mind that BIAB is the method in place to try and bridge the gap for the 'big scary AG brewing' consensus which tends to exist generally with the newer brewers...

I'm not a new brewer, I've been brewing now for 6 or 7 years, I too fell victim to that mentality... Mainly because of price to be honest.. 

I am however a brand spanking new AG brewer... Have just put down number 5 or 6 today... 


Extract brewing is a great place to learn what you're obviously in the process of learning... If it's baby steps? Kits, extract, partials, then BIAB/3v is the way to go..

I've found through the guidance offered on this site the confidence to skip partials straight into AG.. Trust me... 

A community 19000 strong (well 5000 strong if you forget the Spammers :lol who are willing to help at every turn in the road is a great one to be a part of...


Give it a go, in 5 or 6 brews time... You'll surprise yourself... I can assure you of that... In the meantime? Read up on it.

Hope this helps to motivate!!

Good on you Aidan... 

BTW have heard good things about the Cascade Stout if you're a stout drinker...


All the best.

Hound


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## beerandgarden (6/1/11)

Brown_hound said:


> ...
> 
> Make sure to bear in mind that BIAB is the method in place to try and bridge the gap for the 'big scary AG brewing' consensus which tends to exist generally with the newer brewers...
> 
> ...


sounds good, will definitely be looking in to it once I've got a few more brews under my belt


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## bum (6/1/11)

Brown_hound said:


> Make sure to bear in mind that BIAB is the method in place to try and bridge the gap for the 'big scary AG brewing' consensus which tends to exist generally with the newer brewers...


Goddamn you talk some stupid shit.

Lurk more.


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## speedie (6/1/11)

bite your lip


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## manticle (7/1/11)

bum said:


> Goddamn you talk some stupid shit.
> 
> Lurk more.



My interpretation of that is that Brown hound is suggesting to anyone scared of AG and all its technicalities, that BIAB will put your mind to rest with its simplicity.

I don't think he was suggesting BIAB was merely a stepping stone to 'real AG'.

Happy to be wrong but unpleased to be involved in any ensuing debates. Been done, not interesting.


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## bum (7/1/11)

manticle said:


> Happy to be wrong but unpleased to be involved in any ensuing debates. Been done, not interesting.


What a meaty proposition!


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## manticle (7/1/11)

sausage


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## Hatchy (7/1/11)

manticle said:


> My interpretation of that is that Brown hound is suggesting to anyone scared of AG and all its technicalities, that BIAB will put your mind to rest with its simplicity.
> 
> I don't think he was suggesting BIAB was merely a stepping stone to 'real AG'.
> 
> Happy to be wrong but unpleased to be involved in any ensuing debates. Been done, not interesting.



I'm also unpleased to be involved in unnecessary arguments over the pros & cons of BIAB vs 3v but the 1 BIAB I did was a massively painful brewday. Admittedly it was the day after I got married & I spent a fair percentage of the day trying to work out whether I was hungover or drunk but that's not the point.

I was reading a thread a while ago where someone seemed like they were making BIAB way harder than it needed to be to the point where he looked like he was making a false bottom for his grain bag to sit in. It reminded me of the awful home brew book I got about 10 years ago which was part of the reason I hardly brewed for a decade.

1 thing I remember from the book is the explanation of how to make a crude mash tun, it's a bucket inside a bucket with holes in the inside bucket. I can't see a reason that I couldn't brew 3v in the kitchen using saucepans & a couple of buckets.

Like I said, I'm not looking to start a BIAB vs 3v war. Having typed this then looked at the thread title I'm going OT but having spent this much time typing I can't not post it. I'm going to try my kitchen 3v bucket tun brewday idea next time Mrs Hatchy goes out for a while. If I have an OK brewday I'll start a new thread. If it's a bad idea then this is the last anyone will hear from me on the subject of bucket tuns.

Edit: that's an unnecessarily long dribble, my "point" was meant to be that I'm not sure why people think BIAB is easier than 3v. I can't remember why I quoted Manticle but it seemed necessary before I started typing.

I'm going to turn my laptop off then grab another beer.


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## Pennywise (7/1/11)

beerandgarden said:


> sounds good, will definitely be looking in to it once I've got a few more brews under my belt



Doesn't matter how you brew mate, if you enjoy the process and the end result, your on a winner :icon_cheers:


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## beerandgarden (13/1/11)

Brewed up this recipe last night. I have a few niggling worries about it. OG came out at 1.042, quite a ways of the 1.050 target. The wort tasted pretty bad - very bitter and hoppy. I hope it's not an indication of final taste. Previously I've just done of home brew, both from pre-hopped kits and the wort tasted good in both cases. I've always drank my SG samples but this time I couldn't. Just worried that since the OG came out lower than anticipated, I might have over hopped it. I'm actually considering not adding the dry hops.

It's been 10.5 hours since pitching and fermentation has not started yet. This time I rehydrated my yeast. For previous 2 batches I just sprinkled the kit yeast on top and in both cases it was bubbling away by next morning. I thought the rehydrated yeast was supposed to kick into action faster, so I'm a bit surprised by that.


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