# Yeast In Too Hot



## adz2332 (4/2/10)

Ok had a brain fade, chucked the yeast in with temps of around 36. No suprise 2 days later not 1 sign of it fermenting.
Is it just as simple as putting another packet of yeast in?
Should i stir it then add the new yeast?
Will it make any differance to the brew having two lots in there?


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## Dazza_devil (4/2/10)

What yeast are you using?
What are you using to measure and control temperature?


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## Supra-Jim (4/2/10)

Depending on the yeast, I reckon 36 deg probably wouldn't have killed it.

What yeast? Have you taken any gravity readings (or what signs of fermentation are you lacking?)

(I think John Palmer recommends temps around high 30's to 40deg when re-hydrating yeast)

Cheers SJ


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## Pennywise (4/2/10)

Have you taken an SG reading?


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## Nick JD (4/2/10)

Chuck more in anyway!


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## QldKev (4/2/10)

As the other posts said,

Check your SG, if it was that hot it may have already fermented out? 

Otherwise using a sanatised spoon stir in another packet. If the first packet was killed there will be no side effects; as long as you have not picked up any nasties in the time it has been sitting there.

QldKev


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## adz2332 (4/2/10)

US05 was the yeast.
Its actually in alcho lemonde.
I had just added around 7 ltrs of boiling water and 5 of cold water then 11 of room temp water.
Was going to sit it in ice water to cool it down then add the yeast but added it without thinking.
Has been sitting in ice water for two days now.

havent taken a reading. But there is no condensation at all, no Co2 out of the air lock and no sediment/foam forming etc

So get more yeast and stri it in you think??


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## manticle (4/2/10)

Always take a reading. Non -beer type brews don't always krausen up like beer and gravity dropping is the only way to be certain.

I doubt 36 deg would kill 05. Extra yeast won't kill the brew though.


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## Dazza_devil (4/2/10)

I found better results as far as lag time when I rehydrated dry yeasts.


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## adz2332 (4/2/10)

As long as extra wont hurt it ill just do that i think. then take a reading etc


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## piraterum (4/2/10)

It is possible the yeast may have survived, however the high temp would have stressed them so they may not ferment efficiently.

I would aerate the brew with a sanitised spoon and chuck another packet of yeast in. You need to get the fermentation started as quickly as possible to reduce the chance of contamination.

A general rule of thumb - the more yeast the better!


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## manticle (4/2/10)

piraterum said:


> A general rule of thumb - the more yeast the better!



While I'm pretty rough with my yeast calculations I don't think this is true. There are effects from overpitching as well as underpitching.

@Adz - if you do add new yeast, make sure you rehydrate first. Adding some yeast nutrient won't hurt either.


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## andy123 (4/2/10)

I like to use a yeast starter just to insure i have active yeast.A cup of warm water a bit of sugar and energizer an in 20 minutes somethings going on.An old or abused yeast will tell on itself without waiting a day for bubbles.Andy


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## QldKev (4/2/10)

piraterum said:


> It is possible the yeast may have survived, however the high temp would have stressed them so they may not ferment efficiently.
> 
> I would aerate the brew with a sanitised spoon and chuck another packet of yeast in. You need to get the fermentation started as quickly as possible to reduce the chance of contamination.
> 
> A general rule of thumb - the more yeast the better!




I agree about getting the fermenting started ASAP to reduce chance of infection, very good point 

but 'more yeast the better' is 100% incorrect. These is heaps of info on here that describes the phases yeast go through and it effects the flavour.

If the yeast was killed/dead, then add more yeast. Without a SG reading we don't really know what has happened.

QldKev


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## Dazza_devil (4/2/10)

andy123 said:


> A cup of warm water a bit of sugar




I wouldn't start my yeast with sugar. From what I have read this can make the yeast lazy when it comes to fermenting malt. In this case it's not gonna matter I guess but good practice is always a good idea. Start it with some LDME if you must but I don't really see it as paramount.
Remember to pitch within 20 mins or so when rehydrating. I think dried yeast has some sort of nutrient incorporated into it and it's spent within 30 mins of hydration.


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## Nick JD (4/2/10)

Sometimes I start my yeast with sugar. I own the term "starter".


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## Dazza_devil (4/2/10)

Nick JD said:


> Sometimes I start my yeast with sugar. I own the term "starter".




Good onya Nick.
So what I've read is crap ?


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## manticle (4/2/10)

Nick JD said:


> Sometimes I start my yeast with sugar. I own the term "starter".




Whatever works for you Nick works for you but companies like fermentis don't recommend proofing their product with sugar. I know Palmer used to recommend it (probably still says it in the online HTB version) but more recent edits of the text suggest not to.

You're a man who likes dispelling brewing myths and simplifying the process which is admirable. Maybe try a brew with proofing and a brew withouty to see if you notice a difference.


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## Back Yard Brewer (4/2/10)

Nick JD said:


> Sometimes I start my yeast with sugar. I own the term "starter™".





WTF  So all this time and with all the info I have taken from this site, I have been making my "starters" the wrong way (sometimes). Well out goes my malt. You learn something different every day :lol: But then I do use sugar with my pizza yeast and also used it back in my can opener days  

BYB


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## Dazza_devil (4/2/10)

Just be careful what you feed it, you may be creating a monster.
I wouldn't feed it bullshit if I were me.


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## adz2332 (5/2/10)

Well an update.
added another FRESH yeast US05 and woke up this morning and its bubbling away happily.
So think that may have been the prob!

Cheers guys


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## Dazza_devil (5/2/10)

Did you rehydrate it?


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## adz2332 (5/2/10)

rehydrate?? meaning ?? :S


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## Dazza_devil (5/2/10)

adz2332 said:


> rehydrate?? meaning ?? :S




Hydrate the yeast in 10 times it's weight of water.


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## manticle (5/2/10)

Don't get alarmed adz. If the brew is fermenting then it's fermenting.

However for next time read up about rehydrating yeast - it's something you do with dried yeast prior to pitching that helps it along and it is as simple as sprinkling it in some boiled cooled water and leaving it to sit for 10-20 minutes.


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## Nick JD (6/2/10)

Another interesting thing to do is to "Prove" your yeast once it's rehydrated. The word "prove" gives a hint as to what you'd do this for - you get proof of the yeast's health.

Rehydrate your pack o yeast in about 100ml of cooled boiled water @~25C. When it has taken on a creamy consistency add a quarter of a teaspoon of sugar.

Within 15-25 minutes you'll see it start to go nuts. 

If it doesn't, then you have dead (or worse - mostly dead) yeast. 

People will go on and on about how you shouldn't do this, but innoculating your wort with dead yeast is probably the best way to get an infection. Those two days of no yeast activity often mean INFECTION.

Proving your yeast can also be used as a guide to whether you yeast is _healthy_ enough to pitch - not just alive of dead. If I get evidence of slacker yeast (and the resulting massive Underpitch) I prove some more because not knowing your yeasts health is kinda stupid. 

I've had very, very fresh yeast that was stone cold dead. Currently I'm using 4 year old dried yeast and it's ALIVE as any I've ever used.


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## Ross (6/2/10)

Actually Nick its called "proofing your yeast", not proving.

The adding sugar step is not neccesary & Company's like Danstar recommend against it, as it uses up built in reserves in the dried yeast. Good yeast will foam up without any sugar addition.

Cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (6/2/10)

Ross said:


> Actually Nick its called "proofing your yeast", not proving.
> 
> The adding sugar step is not neccesary & Company's like Danstar recommend against it, as it uses up built in reserves in the dried yeast. Good yeast will foam up without any sugar addition.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Dead yeast will also "foam" up, Ross. Try it some time. Proved yeast wants to climb out the jar.

Here's John Palmer's picture of a proved yeast. 







He says, "Note: Lallemand/Danstar does not recommend proofing after rehydration of their yeast because they have optimized their yeast's nutrional reserves for quick starting in the main wort. Proofing expends some of those reserves." I don't use Danstar yeast.

Here's a question: what's the "activator" in a Wyeast pack?

From Danstar's FAQ:

_*Does foam or no foam during rehydration give me an indication of how actively the yeast will ferment?*

No! There is no definite explanation why some dry yeasts foam more than others but it has been proven in a series of tests that the occurrence of foam during rehydration is not an indication for more active yeast. Yeast that produced large amounts of foam could have poorer activity than yeast that did not produce any or only small amounts of foam._


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## Dazza_devil (6/2/10)

Proving and Proofing, interesting.
Maybe you can prove it's proofed, if you have proof it's prooved.

I'd have to agree with Ross though, the dried stuff would be better in your wort before it spends up reserved energy and I wouldn't feed it sugar.

What makes it foam when you rehydrate? I had a decent yeast take off really well when hydrating but it didn't foam up much at all.


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## Nick JD (6/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> ... I wouldn't feed it sugar.



Um, there's a lot of it in your wort! 

And the difference between the clunky verb, "proofing", and prove I've used for clarification of the act. "Proofing" sounds like psycological roofing.

When one spends decades brewing kit beers with their ever-dead, under-the-lid yeasts that have been stored at 40C for two years ... one learns not to trust yeast. However, if I was to buy yeast from our esteemed retailer I wouldn't bother. His yeasts are as healthy as one can get.


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## Dazza_devil (6/2/10)

Nick JD said:


> Um, there's a lot of it in your wort!
> 
> And the difference between the clunky verb, "proofing", and prove I've used for clarification of the act.


Just attemping to lighten the thread a little Nick. I found it amusing.

It was raised earlier in the thread about feeding yeast sugar or LDME. From what I've read it's not advisable to start yeast on sugar alone.

Only 150g of dex in my wort but I have in the past added dex after fermentation is well under way.

Agreed about the yeasts from CB, the proof is in the fermentation.


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## piraterum (6/2/10)

There is a strong consensus in yeast micro that DME (not sucrose, dextrose etc) should be used to make a starter.
DME provides a source of nutrients and amino acids which are esstential for yeast growth, whereas sugar does not.

Some other food for thought I found after a bit of reading.

http://www.microbrewers.net/2009/make-a-yeast-starter/
"The reason to use DME over other fermentables is to get the yeast acclimated to the environment they are going to be in and to build strong and healthy cell walls and membranes. You wouldnt put your freshwater fish in a saltwater tank so dont put your yeast in an unhealthy environment."


Palmer http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-6.html

"The starter wort and the main wort must be very similar if the starter is pitched at or near peak activity. Why? Because the yeast in the starter wort have produced a specific set of enzymes for that wort's sugar profile. If those yeast are then pitched to a different wort, with a different relative percentage of sugars, the yeast will be impaired and the fermentation may be affected. Kind of like trying to change boats in mid-stream. This is especially true for starter worts made from extract that includes refined sugars. Yeast that has been eating sucrose, glucose/dextrose, or fructose will quit making the enzyme that allows it to eat maltose - the main sugar of brewer's wort."


http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm
"Use an all malt wort for starters. The sugar in the starter needs to be maltose, not simple sugar. Yeast that have been eating a lot of simple sugars stop making the enzyme that enable it to break down maltose, which is the main sugar in wort. The yeast quickly learn to be lazy and the ability to fully attenuate a batch of beer suffers."


http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-p...s-and-practices

The addition of yeast nutrients and certain salts can also improve yeast growth and are a worthwhile addition to starters. Yeast nutrients usually are of two types, one which is ammonium phosphate-based, and the other which is amino acid/peptide and vitamin-based (similar to the peptone and yeast extract in the laboratory media described below). Both serve the same basic function which is to increase the nitrogen content of the wort and yeast. A mixture of different nitrogen sources have been shown to enhance both growth and fermentation and suggest that the amino acid/peptide-based nutrients may be more appropriate than diammonium phosphate. Also rapidly growing yeast such as those in starters have a higher than normal nitrogen requirement. Thus starter worts should be supplemented with yeast nutrients so that nitrogen is not limiting.

Table 3. Recommended Media for Starter

Starter Wort	Amount for 1 Liter (qt) 
Dry Malt Extract or
~1.040 O.G. wort	1 cup or 0.25 lbs DME 
1% vitamin based yeast nutrient	1/2 tsp or 10 g 
Hops (optional)	1 pellet or a few drops of iso-alpha extract 


http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_FAQ.html - Cascade brewery have similar instructions
"Procedure:
In a medium sauce pan, add 2 pints of water and 1 cup Dried Malt Extract (DME). Mix well and boil the solution for about 10 minutes to sterilize. Cover and cool the pan to room temperature in an ice bath. This will give you a wort of approximately 1.040 OG. Keeping the Original Gravity low is important because you want to keep the yeast in its growth phase, rather than its fermentation phase. The fermentation phase will create alcohol which can be toxic to yeast in high concentrations"

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/starter.htm

"Yeast undergoes a series of metabolic steps when it is pitched into wort. It takes a while for the yeast to figure out what to do. When yeast is poured from the tube or package directly into wort, they are in a dormant state. They don't immediately begin fermentation. The first thing they do is to assess the level of nutrients, including sugar, amino acids and oxygen levels. Once they've adapted to the environment, they begin a reproductive phase. They will continue to reproduce as long as oxygen and other nutrients are available. Fermentation begins in earnest only once all the oxygen has been depleted."


It seems the problem of overpitching is minimal  


http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Overpitching

Overpitching is when too much yeast is pitched into the wort. If this occurs, the most common symptoms is a very yeasty-flavoured beer, beer that is fermented too quickly and has high fermentation temperatures as a result. This is a very uncommon in a home brewing setup for the following reasons:

1- Most yeast packets- even liquid yeast starters- are considered by experts in the field to be either *just* enough yeast to ferment a 5 gallon batch or even to be underpitching.

2- It takes a lot of yeast to overpitch. 

If you want to be anal you can use a yeast pitching calc like this one:

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html


cheers,

piraterum


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## Nick JD (6/2/10)

Great info!

I'm just checking the yeast is alive to make a perfectly drinkable beer that will never be entered in a competition. Perhaps I should use LDME for proving yeast ... but to be honest, my yeasts don't seem to be as anal as some others. A bit of sugar to wake them up and what do you know - they still make delicious beer. And unless I'm mistaken - the bubbles that are rising when proving yeast are CO2.

Dead yeast, as far as I know, do not make delicious beer. 

Considering the fact that I've just learned there is 10% glucose in all AG beers ... I think it's a moot point.


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## Dazza_devil (6/2/10)

Nick JD said:


> Great info!
> 
> I'm just checking the yeast is alive to make a perfectly drinkable beer that will never be entered in a competition. Perhaps I should use LDME for proving yeast ... but to be honest, my yeasts don't seem to be as anal as some others. A bit of sugar to wake them up and what do you know - they still make delicious beer. And unless I'm mistaken - the bubbles that are rising when proving yeast are CO2.
> 
> ...




Probly right Nick, if you have healthy yeast and not underpitching or at the wrong temps just throw it in dry. Worked for me many times before I started rehydrating or making starters.


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