# Nice vs harsh bitterness



## bcp (12/6/13)

I've had pale ales, IPAs and even IPAs with delightful bitterness. 

Then occasionally I taste a pale or IPA that is just... harsh. It's like... ear wax or old-fashioned floor polish or something. Unpleasant. This thread depends on people guessing what I mean. 

I don't have a trained palate like many of you, so I'd like to understand what I'm tasting, what's causing this difference. My guesses are:
* Lack of malt balance? That's an obvious one, but I'm not sure that's the full story. 
* Higher levels of certain types of alpha acids? In my own brewing I tend to use more lower alpha hops, and they seem to bring more complexity, more going on than just bitter. Obviously some of the American hops are good examples, with the various citrous flavours coming through. 
* Water chemistry? Too much sodium or sulphate?


----------



## Mardoo (12/6/13)

Huge topic. I look forward to the coming discussion.


----------



## cremmerson (12/6/13)

I'm with you on the sidelines, Mardoo.


----------



## QldKev (12/6/13)

There's many causes, off the top of my head

Astringency.
Some hops are bad for being harsh. NS and Citra can be really harsh
Water chem, too much Chloride is a big one, but even too much Sulphate can become sharp which could be perceived as harshness.
I find leaving too much break material from the kettle causes a harsh bitterness and strips hop aroma.

Plenty more ideas will follow


----------



## Bribie G (12/6/13)

A 90 minute boil often smooths out the bitterness.


----------



## treefiddy (12/6/13)

QldKev said:


> astringency
> some hops are bad for this. NS and Citra can be really harsh


Do you think this is caused by tannins in the hops? Some varieties are perhaps worse higher in tannins?
Pair that with a high pH boil and I guess you're asking for it (extraction).

Edit: clarity


----------



## bcp (12/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> A 90 minute boil often smooths out the bitterness.


Just to clarify - I'm talking about commercial brews, not my own brewing.


----------



## dmac80 (12/6/13)

Tried the Bridge Road Single hop Galaxy or Stella?

They were a bit harsh...


----------



## QldKev (12/6/13)

treefiddy said:


> Do you think this is caused by tannins in the hops? Some varieties are perhaps worse higher in tannins?
> Pair that with a high pH boil and I guess you're asking for it (extraction).
> 
> Edit: clarity


They were 2 separate points.
Astringency.
Some hops are bad for being harsh. NS and Citra can be really harsh
I'll edit the post to clarify


I'm not sure exactly what compound in the hop it is from, but I find a lot of the newer high AA% hops to be harsher. Make a English bitter with EKG for bittering and you will fall in love with it, then try it with a really high AA% hop and it's no where near the same.

The pH in mash and also boil are also factors that can play havoc.


----------



## hoppy2B (12/6/13)

My honest opinion is that its just too high an IBU. Lower your IBU and it won't seem as bitter.


----------



## mikec (12/6/13)

I get where you're coming from bcp.
Overly bitter without the malt profile or enough hop flavour to back it up.
I have also found that over time, you develop a tolerance to the bitterness, and now I am liking bigger and more bitterer (yes that is a word, now) beers.


----------



## Bribie G (12/6/13)

I drink very few Australian craft beers, much prefer my own. When I'm at Dans I go for Eastern Euro beers or the more complex German beers such as DAB, predominantly.


----------



## bum (12/6/13)

Some of the things mentioned so far (and I strongly suspect the same of things to come) will make "roughness" better or worse (depending on the intention of the advice) regardless of ingredients used.

For me it all comes down to hop variety. Some just exhibit rougher bitterness.

Look at Amarillo versus Columbus, for example. Columbus is much smoother to the same IBU despite a significant difference in AA%. Or Galaxy versus Magnum - comparable AA% but Galaxy is rough as guts to my palate, but I could bitter a beer through the roof with Magnum.

Having said all that - I'm sure the science on this is well known to those who know it. It's not witchcraft, I am sure.


----------



## Adr_0 (12/6/13)

Over-doing low AA hops can bring in a harsh bitterness too.

I actually thought the Beta Acid % was a good indicator of harshness, particularly the ratio to alpha acid. A few examples (pick which one I think is a harsh bittering hop vs smooth...)
German Magnum --> Alpha/Beta ratio 2.2-3.5
Simcoe -> Alpha/Beta ratio 2.4-3.5
PoR -> Alpha/beta ratio 1.3-1.9

I haven't used Galaxy so I can't really comment. I guess a high Alpha/Beta ratio means that beta acids are comparatively lower?


----------



## vonromanz (12/6/13)

Old, oxidised, hops can do it. Although beta acids in fresh hops doesn't give bitterness in the boil, oxidise them and it will lend a harsh bitterness. Untreated water high in alkalinity used for pale beers, like lagers, will do it.


----------



## browndog (12/6/13)

An unbalanced beer can accentuate bitterness as will high carbonation. Simcoe and Magnum are really smooth bittering hops. Graeme's Chinese hops gave a real ascorbic acid type of bittering.


----------



## Adr_0 (12/6/13)

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Hop_chemistry#Beta_acids

Some extra info.

Balance is a definite one. I am having second thoughts about brewing my 5% ABV pale wheat beer with 80IBU of PoR and Galaxy...


----------



## manticle (12/6/13)

@Hoppy: Yes it might be less bitter if there's less bittering units. How do you know the IBU is too high if you don't know what beers he has tasted?

There is a difference in a beer of 40 IBU that's bittered with hallertauer mittelfruh or tettnanger and a beer that's bittered to the same measured level using galaxy or chinook.

BCP: it can be a combo of things. Cohumulone levels are one thing that has often been pointed to as a contributor to harsh bitterness. Co humolone levels were, until recently associated with high aa hops (as cohumulone is an alpha acid and more readily soluble than the others) and lower levels have been associated with noble hops (renowned for offering soft, smooth bittering). Nowadays many of the high aa hops have low cohumulone levels.

Late hopping can, according to Fix,lead to undesirable compounds, even in nobles due to the limited contact with hot wort (supporting the earlier assertion that longer boils may reduce harshness). Could it be heavily late hopped with new world hop type beers you're getting it in - 10 minute IPAs and such?

There are many compounds in hops, some of which contribute bitterness. IBU is a measurement solely of isomerised alpha acid in solution. Chew on a hop pellet or soak one in cold water - the alpha acids have not isomerised and will not have dissolved but you will still taste bitterness. One of these could be contributing to what you are tasting. High levels of mercene (an essential oil) add pungent, resiny, piney type characters whereas humulene is considered elegant.

Could be recipe balance as you say. Hop chemistry is not completely understood so there may be other factors. Wort pH plays a part (too high can contribute unpleasant characteristics).

Could also relate to malt - astringency from polyphenols/grain husks for example. Is it a feeling you get on the sides of the front of the tongue like sucking a wet tea bag?

Quality of bittering and flavouring has been associated with alpha: beta ratio but the book I read this in (Fix again) suggests that research is lacking into this correlation. That's late 90s so maybe that gap has been filled.

Not sure what exactly you're tasting but have had beers with both harsh bitterness and astringency before and there is a difference. Hopefully the above gives you some starting points.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob (12/6/13)

A good rule is the higher the Co-Humulone the harsher the bitterness, the best bittering hops are low in Co-Humulone. Some good examples are warrior around 24% and magnum, one of the worst is Galaxy 35% :huh: 

Edit, please excuse the speedy type font!!


----------



## beerdrinkingbob (12/6/13)

The AA% is a moot point IMO


----------



## roverfj1200 (12/6/13)

Manticle... Wicked reply... I feel I know so much more now,,, And I will make better beers for it.. Thanks.



Cheeers


----------



## Fat Bastard (12/6/13)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> A good rule is the higher the Co-Humulone the harsher the bitterness, the best bittering hops are low in Co-Humulone. Some good examples are warrior around 24% and magnum, one of the worst is Galaxy 35% :huh:
> 
> Edit, please excuse the speedy type font!!


I'm a massive fan of Warrior as a bittering hop in big IIPA's. My current Red IIPA calculates at 106IBU, but is very smooth and tastes like much less. I've got a Motueka/Pacifica pale ale that calculates at around 35IBU, which tastes much harsher, and seems more bitter than it actually is, even after you take into account the difference in style. To my palate, it seems not much less bitter than the big IIPA.

When I had the Red IIPA up around the 125IBU mark, people would comment on how smooth it was, and express large amounts of surprise when I showed them the Brewmate file.


----------



## hoppy2B (12/6/13)

Did anyone mention the role different yeast strains play in determining the level of bitterness?


----------



## mabrungard (12/6/13)

The use of high alpha hops for the main bittering charge is a good way to reduce the mass of hops in the kettle. Beyond that, making sure that the kettle wort pH is less than 5.5 is another good measure. If harshness continues to be a problem, further reducing the kettle wort pH may help. Be aware that hop utilization and hop expression is affected by reduced wort pH, so you may not want to overdo it.


----------



## Fat Bastard (12/6/13)

mabrungard said:


> The use of high alpha hops for the main bittering charge is a good way to reduce the mass of hops in the kettle. Beyond that, making sure that the kettle wort pH is less than 5.5 is another good measure. If harshness continues to be a problem, further reducing the kettle wort pH may help. Be aware that hop utilization and hop expression is affected by reduced wort pH, so you may not want to overdo it.


In your opinion, what is the best way to do this?
With my pale beers, I can't seem to get the pH into the right range according to the EZ water spreadsheet (tested with strips) but it's not a drama with the darker beers like the Red IIPA.

I've been looking to getting some 88% Lactic Acid or acidulated malt to compensate, but not sure which way to go here.


----------



## manticle (12/6/13)

Try either. Too much will affect flavour but with the right starting water and the right dose of calcium you should be able to add just enough to do the job without tasting it.


----------



## Fat Bastard (13/6/13)

Thanks manticle. With Sydney water, I'm only looking at small additions to get me into the correct range, according to the spreadsheet and the (coloured) test strips that were recommended by the tame analytical chemist at work.

I suspect this may be key to getting my pale beers tasting right. I've been mucking about with water chemistry for a while now, but can't seem to get my paler brews in the right pH range with Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate and MgSo4 alone. Coincidentally, I'm far more pleased by my darker beers' flavour.


----------



## manticle (13/6/13)

Drop the MgSO4. Use acid and the two calcium salts, style dependent.

Is your water chloraminated?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/6/13)

I find some commercial IPA/APA (given I stopped brewing for over 6 months, I had to purchase) are thin in body, and tend to have a fairly harsh bitterness. Aroma is often lacking as well.

Yet they often (when stated or someone has 'got the recipe') use hop varieties that I don't have this issue with.

I can't get any figures on the water here (cradle mountain water is the authority), so I can't pontificate about that. So far my water here seems a little more minerally but less 'chlorine tasting' than Brisbane, but again, no data to support.

I've been eagerly watching this from the sidelines, and have nothing to offer except a crappy anecdote, that maybe (hopefully) someone with the knowledge (like manticle) can offer more thoughts on or at least it can operate as a bump.

Loved mant's post too - learned a helluva lot.


----------



## pcmfisher (13/6/13)

I agree with the type of hop and boil time as harsh bitterness determinants. 

I have done many single hop extract brews to the same bitterness around 30 IBU with different hops and boil times.

Galaxy 60 mins = Harsh 

Citra 60 mins = Much smoother

Citra 30mins to same IBU = Harsher than Citra 60 min.


----------



## Nick JD (13/6/13)

I like harsh bitterness in some beers. It's grassiness I can not stand.


----------



## Dave70 (13/6/13)

Nick JD said:


> I like harsh bitterness in some beers. It's grassiness I can not stand.


I've got a little from both column A & B when dry hopping with Amarillo in an APA. The grassiness faded over time, but it remained harsh till the last drop.

But in the last wheat / pale with one 60 min and one flame out addition there was none, it's fruitilicious, and with no dark malts or crystal to hide behind. 


The wheat incidentally was no chill.
Just sayin.


----------



## Parks (13/6/13)

Dave70 said:


> I've got a little from both column A & B when dry hopping with Amarillo in an APA. The grassiness faded over time, but it remained harsh till the last drop.
> 
> But in the last wheat / pale with one 60 min and one flame out addition there was none, it's fruitilicious, and with no dark malts or crystal to hide behind.
> 
> ...


Quick Q - how long did you dry hop for? My findings and heaps of reading lately suggest 2 days max for most so I would be interested to know what time you did which gave you perceived grassiness.


----------



## Maxt (13/6/13)

Manticle, I had never heard about the late hop/ harshness due to lack of boil time...I just know that I have always struggled to tame galaxy. Food for thought


----------



## manticle (13/6/13)

Like I say, it was just something I read. I have also read however that an extended hopped boil (from memory longer than 3 hours) and wort will actually reduce in bitterness.
First was from Fix (Principles of brewing science) second from allen & cantwell (barley wine). 

I'd be interested in exploring further. When I do a 2 or 3 hour boil I don't add hops till 60 mins left.


----------



## Mardoo (13/6/13)

I'm very interested in the relationship between late hopping and bitterness. There must be some pretty complex interactions between the various alpha acids during isomerization that wouldn't come into play as much with "hop bursting". 

I've never seen anything mentioned about late hopping and bitterness as related to the greater levels of oils remaining. Many plant "essential" oils are exceedingly bitter if concentrated, if not most. Could those be contributing to harsh bitterness in late hopping? This is pure speculation on my part.

Manticle, thanks, as always, for your great posts.


----------



## Fat Bastard (13/6/13)

manticle said:


> Drop the MgSO4. Use acid and the two calcium salts, style dependent.
> 
> Is your water chloraminated?


Sydney water has no chloramine as far as I know. Why would you drop the MgSO4? The spreadsheet says it should be in a certain range, and small amounts get it within that range. Lots of stuff I do when brewing I am yet to understand fully!


----------



## manticle (13/6/13)

All grain brewing provides enough magnesium. Unless you are brewing high adjunct beers, you will have enough. Magnesium does what calcium does but less effectively so you are better off using calcium salts than magnesium salts.

Too much magnesium makes beer taste odd, way too much makes you shit your pants.
In short - there's enough there already, extra is not super effective, too much is bad


----------



## Dan2 (13/6/13)

manticle said:


> All grain brewing provides enough magnesium.


Any idea how much? This is something the water calculators don't do.
EZwater says ideal range of 10-30ppm, and punching MgSO4 into it changes the profile readout, but adding grains doesn't change anything but pH


----------



## durgarth (13/6/13)

Fantastic discussion. From my own experimentation (from lots of reading)I have found a lot of the harsh acid bitterness can be "smoothed" out if a percentage of the hops are added in the mash. So for example the 20 minute additions are added to the mash (at least double the quantity) the result is a smooth balanced rounded product. If the same amount was added in the boil the result is harsher, more astringent and certainly more bitter.

I await more input from those more experienced.


----------



## manticle (13/6/13)

First wort hopping has been found (in some tests, not necessarily conclusively) to result in smooth bittering and flavour.
Mash hopping is what you describe which is different but it's possible it may have a similar effect - slow, hot steep pulls out essential oils and maybe very slow isomerisation or solubilisation of alpha acids.
I am hypothesising only.

@dan2 - no idea why calculators don't take it into account but I've not read a good text on the subject of water/mash pH that suggests you need to add extra Mg if your Ca levels are appropriate and my own limited experience with epsom has not been favourable.


----------



## Mardoo (14/6/13)

manticle said:


> @dan2 - no idea why calculators don't take it into account but I've not read a good text on the subject of water/mash pH that suggests you need to add extra Mg if your Ca levels are appropriate and my own limited experience with epsom has not been favourable.


Can you give a title for one of these texts Manticle or anyone? And also for any good text on hop utilization? I got the Brewers Publications book _For the Love of Hops_ and was pretty disappointed with the information on using hops.


----------



## manticle (14/6/13)

Essays in brewing science by Lewis and Bamforth, Principles of brewing science by George Fix, New Brewing Lager beer by Noonan and Brewing science and practice by briggs, boulton, brookes and stevens all have good information about hops and water/mash pH.

All bar the last are readily and cheaply available from the book depository (order through this link and support my brewing club: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/?a_aid=melbournebrewers&a_bid=7da4aeb1&chan=wadd )

The last is very expensive and very technical and I still have to re- read and wade through in its entirety. I may have another tech title somewhere that I've forgotten - will have a search.


----------



## Adr_0 (14/6/13)

manticle said:


> Essays in brewing science by Lewis and Bamforth, Principles of brewing science by George Fix, New Brewing Lager beer by Noonan and Brewing science and practice by briggs, boulton, brookes and stevens all have good information about hops and water/mash pH.
> 
> All bar the last are readily and cheaply available from the book depository (order through this link and support my brewing club: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/?a_aid=melbournebrewers&a_bid=7da4aeb1&chan=wadd )
> 
> The last is very expensive and very technical and I still have to re- read and wade through in its entirety. I may have another tech title somewhere that I've forgotten - will have a search.


Even Palmer's 'How to Brew' shows the relative impact of Mg salts vs Ca with his little Ca/Mg/Hardness/beer colour scale. Braukaiser has some pretty in-depth water analysis/pH control articles. You probably need to measure this first. 

No idea about hop utilisation sorry.


----------



## Dave70 (14/6/13)

Parks said:


> Quick Q - how long did you dry hop for? My findings and heaps of reading lately suggest 2 days max for most so I would be interested to know what time you did which gave you perceived grassiness.


Pretty sure It was four days at normal temps, then a further three crash chilling - about 20 grams.

I would have dismissed it a s a harsh hop on that beer alone, but like I said, in a different beer, it tasted like a different hop. Perhaps it's not the hop, its what you do with it that counts.

I'd say definitely say there's a tipping point where more isn't necessarily better, no matter how well you balance it.


----------



## Nibbo (14/6/13)

I find i get some bitterness from Briess Extra Special Malt...From memory, the most i've used in a batch is about 10%. For me, I enjoy what flavour it gives.


----------



## Mardoo (14/6/13)

manticle said:


> Essays in brewing science by Lewis and Bamforth, Principles of brewing science by George Fix, New Brewing Lager beer by Noonan and Brewing science and practice by briggs, boulton, brookes and stevens all have good information about hops and water/mash pH.
> 
> All bar the last are readily and cheaply available from the book depository (order through this link and support my brewing club: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/?a_aid=melbournebrewers&a_bid=7da4aeb1&chan=wadd )
> 
> The last is very expensive and very technical and I still have to re- read and wade through in its entirety. I may have another tech title somewhere that I've forgotten - will have a search.


 :icon_offtopic: Yeah, the Briggs books are pretty full on, and as you say expensive. I read his "Malts and Malting" when I was toying with the idea of opening an Australian traditional floor maltings and the bio-chem was a real slog for me and FULLY worth it. Then I lost the book. Those suckers are pricey to replace! I may have to go all in on Brewing Science and Practice.

And Dr. Charlie Bamforth just rocks. I heard an interview where he mentions that Dr. Thomas Shellhammer was doing some good research on hop utilisation, but I haven't yet managed to track much down by him. There's this reeeeeally tempting link with abstracts from the World Brewing Congress but I haven't as yet tracked down any of the presentations. I may just have to contact the presenters directly. http://www.worldbrewingcongress.org/2012/abstracts/podiumabstracts.cfm


----------



## BreathingHeat (14/6/13)

dmac said:


> Tried the Bridge Road Single hop Galaxy or Stella?
> 
> They were a bit harsh...


Yep, definitely the Stella. Rather unpleasant in my opinion. Harsh bitterness would be a precise description. On the flip side, a beer like SN Torpedo is very bitter, but yet a smooth bitterness. Far less tough stinging.

I have struggled with superficial/harsh bitterness in many of my IPAs. 

Great topic.


----------



## mabrungard (16/6/13)

Fat Bastard said:


> In your opinion, what is the best way to do this?
> With my pale beers, I can't seem to get the pH into the right range according to the EZ water spreadsheet (tested with strips) but it's not a drama with the darker beers like the Red IIPA.
> 
> I've been looking to getting some 88% Lactic Acid or acidulated malt to compensate, but not sure which way to go here.


Paper pH strips are not reliable for brewing use. The plastic ColorpHast strips are generally reliable, but they have a systematic error of reading about 0.3 units too low. Since those strips are consistently low, you can adjust for that error. But paper strips are just not reliable at all. 

It does sound like your water has some alkalinity in it since pale beers are troublesome and darker beers are less so. Including acidification in your brewing process would be wise for those paler beers. I suggest that you visit the Bru'n Water site and review the Water Knowledge page to get an understanding of more of these water adjustment goals and techniques. 

Unfortunately, there is misinformation out there regarding magnesium in brewing water. As mentioned above, malt provides all the Mg needed for brewing. The ONLY reason to add Mg is when you want its sour astringency in your beer. For hoppy and bitter beers, that effect is desirable. Therefore, the true desirable range for Mg in brewing water is 0 to 40 ppm.


----------



## mmmyummybeer (16/6/13)

:icon_offtopic:
Maybe getting slightly off topping to bitterness but just wanted to add to earlier water adjustment and reading resources posts earlier and mentioning that John Palmer's 'Water' book should be due out later on in the year which I imagine would be a good easy to read resource for water info.


----------



## Fat Bastard (16/6/13)

mabrungard said:


> Paper pH strips are not reliable for brewing use. The plastic ColorpHast strips are generally reliable, but they have a systematic error of reading about 0.3 units too low. Since those strips are consistently low, you can adjust for that error. But paper strips are just not reliable at all.
> 
> It does sound like your water has some alkalinity in it since pale beers are troublesome and darker beers are less so. Including acidification in your brewing process would be wise for those paler beers. I suggest that you visit the Bru'n Water site and review the Water Knowledge page to get an understanding of more of these water adjustment goals and techniques.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is misinformation out there regarding magnesium in brewing water. As mentioned above, malt provides all the Mg needed for brewing. The ONLY reason to add Mg is when you want its sour astringency in your beer. For hoppy and bitter beers, that effect is desirable. Therefore, the true desirable range for Mg in brewing water is 0 to 40 ppm.


Thanks for your helpful post!
I'm using those plastic pH strips you mentioned. The reason the guys at work recommend these over a meter is that in their opinion, meters can be accurate, but without calibration at every use, using expensive test soutions and careful handling they can be worse than the strips. Then again, the glorified sparkie calibration dude uses a pH meter to check the RO water system. 

In honesty, I haven't measured the mash pH for ages, and given that I've had a measurable increase in efficiency over 20 odd brews since starting to play with water chemistry, and a subjective improvement in taste, I've been happy to leave it at that. I do recall the measured mash pH was lower than EZ water predicted, but maybe not by as much as 0.3.

Looks like the next steps for me will be to dump the Epsom Salts, use acidulated malt to bring the pH down to the higher end of the scale on EZ water, and go from there. 

Cheers!
FB


----------



## mabrungard (17/6/13)

mmmyummybeer said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> Maybe getting slightly off topping to bitterness but just wanted to add to earlier water adjustment and reading resources posts earlier and mentioning that John Palmer's 'Water' book should be due out later on in the year which I imagine would be a good easy to read resource for water info.


Thanks for the mention. AJ Delange and I were the technical editors for that book. It should be out in October.

FB: calibration solutions are a necessary part of pH meter use. Yes, they have to be used prior to each day's use. They aren't expensive though. 

The plastic strips seem to be relatively accurate enough when you include the systematic error. Do recognize that those strips have a short lifetime also. They go bad, so use them quickly. Share with some friends so that you don't have to waste them. Cutting the strips in half can be a good technique to extend their use. Be aware that the manufacturer recommends dunking them in the solution for 1 to 10 minutes to get a good reading. It seems that wort has a low ionic strength and that is why a long contact time is required.


----------



## treefiddy (17/6/13)

Fat Bastard said:


> Thanks for your helpful post!
> I'm using those plastic pH strips you mentioned. The reason the guys at work recommend these over a meter is that in their opinion, meters can be accurate, but without calibration at every use, using expensive test soutions and careful handling they can be worse than the strips. Then again, the glorified sparkie calibration dude uses a pH meter to check the RO water system.


pH meters can also often measure conductivity. Since the RO system is probably removing mostly dissolved salts, the conductivity is much lower in the purified water. The purity of RO water is usually measured in resistivity, but it is closely related to conductivity so what he's doing is pretty normal.

You could take one of your strips into work and dunk it in the pH 4 buffer solution used to calibrate the pH meters, it may give you a better idea of the accuracy of your particular strips.


----------



## piraterum (17/6/13)

Great discussion!

It's clearly a complex issue with many factors at play.

Interestingly, in the Mr Malty article which references several different sources, it suggests late hopping results in a much smoother hop bitterness than the traditional 60 min / 90min bittering additions. It specifically mentions how well this works in 10 min IPA's ie where except for 3 or 4 IBUs, all of the hops are added during the last 10 minutes of the boil.

"*Hop Selection*

Select your late hop varieties based on how pleasing the aroma. "I select hops for late hopping based on their aromatic quality," Brynildson says. "We utilize a number of low alpha aroma varieties as well as mid-alpha dual purpose hops for late hopping. Some examples are Styrian Golding, East Kent Golding, Cascade, Centennial, Crystal, Mount Hood, and US Fuggle."

Zien says, "We look for aromatic hop varieties with good flavor characteristics and low cohumulone values. In our experience, these are the hops that isomerize without imparting harsh or astringent-like hop profiles. This goes beyond late-hopping for flavor and aroma, and applies equally to smooth bittering early in the boil as well. The hops that have worked best for our late-hopping include Cascade, Amarillo, Tomahawk, Simcoe, Chinook, and a newer variety, Palisades. Tomahawk and Simcoe have relatively high alpha acid values and somewhat low cohumulone values and are best used in lesser percentages than the other hops mentioned. For our English-style Ales, we use East Kent Golding and Styrian Golding. One of AleSmith's Belgian-style Ales, Lil' Devil, benefits from a run through a hop-back containing Styrian Golding whole hops on its way to the heat exchanger."

Some studies suggest that late hopping with high cohumulone hops tends to result in a more harsh bitterness. However, Brynildson says, "I don't buy into the cohumulone equals 'harsh bitterness' theory. I also believe that the cohumulone argument is independent of how you are utilizing the hops-kettle hopping or late hopping. Some of the best smelling hops in the world are high in cohumulone and I plan to continue using them."

Given that a number of brewers report a less harsh bitter from late hopping, it might be a lesser issue than first thought. It might be more important to select late hops based on their flavors and aromas first, and their cohumulone fraction second."


http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php




manticle said:


> Late hopping can, according to Fix,lead to undesirable compounds, even in nobles due to the limited contact with hot wort (supporting the earlier assertion that longer boils may reduce harshness). Could it be heavily late hopped with new world hop type beers you're getting it in - 10 minute IPAs and such?


----------



## Adr_0 (17/6/13)

My further 2c (probably up to 14c by now?) - warning, anecdotal evidence following:

I brewed an ESB with my Brisbane water, without adding gypsum and diluting to approx 9L/kg in the mash (my stuffup on brewday):
78% MO
8.5% demerara sugar
6.4% medium crystal (Thomas F)
1.6% roast barley
Hopped to 35IBU with Challenger at 60min, plus some Willamette at 15min
Wyeast 1275.
It was quite astringent, obscenely so in the pre-ferm sample. It improved somewhat mid fermentation, but was bag again towards the end (typical) at 1.013 or thereabouts. However, at 1.010 now it is quite smooth, but still has a definite hint of astringence, astringency, astringentness and maybe even astringentism. Probably astringency. Did pH play a part? I didn't measure so I can't totally say (hence the anecdotal).

A day later, brewing my extra-pale black IPA with 2g/kg gypsum, max dilution was 4.5L/kg in the mash:
88% Weyermann vienna
6.8% Weyermann CaraMunich I
4.5% wheat
1.057, 50IBU
9 IBU Simcoe at 60min
8.5IBU Simcoe at 50min
8IBU Simcoe at 40min
7IBU Amarillo at 30min
6.2IBU Amarillo at 25min
5.5IBU Amarillo at 20min
3IBU Cascade at 15min
1-2IBU Cascade at 5min

Smooth as the buttocks of a young child at a tasting at 1.023 - obviously will get drier but I can't see it being an issue at all in a week. Again, did not measure pH but even the fairly chunky volume of hops had the pre-fermentation sample tasting wonderful.

Obviously different hops and different profile, but the 50IBU came across significantly smoother than the 35IBU. I have used Challenger and Northdown in a previous ESB that was beautiful (I always do 30-35IBU for some reason for these beers), but had what I would describe as a 'bite' on the tongue rather than an astringent note, and was dosed at 1.5-2g/kg with gypsum. Same water, guarantee the water/grain wasn't as diluted as it was a fly sparge and a moderate boil only. The yeast in that case was Whitelabs Burton Ale, but it was a glowing bright beer.

But, I can probably throw all this out the door as I didn't measure pH in either case. There are a few definite pre-cursors of higher than ideal pH - poor mash conversion (some starch in the mash), astringency, dark cloudy wort.

Very anecdotal, but if somebody out there has kept better records and noticed astringent bitterness correlated with high pH, it might be something to steer away from in future batches. I will be brewing the ESB again soon - was happy with the recipe and love the yeast - so I will be curious how I go with gypsum dosing and a less dilute mash. I will just have to brew it within the next couple of months - and it will still be anecdotal until I measure two examples. 

EDIT: corrected gypsum to 2g/kg from 2g/L


----------



## roverfj1200 (17/6/13)

With Mash PH is this any good

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=919

Was planning on giving it a go

Cheers.


----------



## mabrungard (18/6/13)

roverfj1200 said:


> With Mash PH is this any good
> 
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=919
> 
> ...


It's far from ideal. Other researchers have found that it buffers to a pH of more like 5.7 which is several tenths higher than desirable. Learning to use an acid to neutralize excess alkalinity is a better approach.


----------



## bum (18/6/13)

mabrungard said:


> It's far from ideal. Other researchers have found that it buffers to a pH of more like 5.7 which is several tenths higher than desirable. Learning to use an acid to neutralize excess alkalinity is a better approach.


Did the research give any indication if it may actually be of benefit over not treating water at all (that even though the resulting ph may not be perfect)?


----------



## spog (18/6/13)

*fellas,for good info on hops&bitterness listen to the BeerSmith podcast #58 with Charlie Bamforth.*
*it an interesting topic and Charlie explains it well. ...cheers...spog...*


----------



## Nick JD (18/6/13)

spog said:


> *fellas,for good info on hops&bitterness listen to the BeerSmith podcast #58 with Charlie Bamforth.*
> *it an interesting topic and Charlie explains it well. ...cheers...spog...*


Thos podcasts always leave me with a lot of interesting theoretical knowledge and zero practical application of it. I know know all about the alpha acids, their stereoisomers (and how cis and trans taste different) but have SFA Idea how this applies to hop selection and boiling approaches. In short - those podcasts are great for speaking crap, but useless for making better beer.


----------



## piraterum (20/6/13)

Some interesting articles on late hopping, bitterness and steeping temps

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/


http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands


----------



## technobabble66 (20/6/13)

Just found & read this. Thought it is applicable here.

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf?sequence=1

(first page is blank)

It's waay too long to read the whole thing, but there's a great summary of hop compounds affecting aroma/flavour on pg4-16, plus some stuff right at the end in the Conclusion (plus some other tidbits in the Discussions).
In particular reference to this, page 16 talks about the *polyphenols* in the hops. They're water soluble, so easily extracted (think compounds in tea leaves); but contribute both positive & negative elements to taste/aroma. They seem to be the *main contributors to harshness & astringency* (aside from poorly balanced IBU's, i assume!).

I think it's implied in the experimental results that for dry hopping, pellets achieve the best extraction however everything is extracted, including the polyphenols. So flowers/plugs might be the better dry hopping material to reduce potential harshness (?). Also, i think the less processed material has a better yield of geraniol (floral & ester aromas ?).

So it may come down to the variance of amounts & types of polyphenols in a given hop in a given year as to how harsh it'll be. Since i don't think this info is reported by producers, i guess we're back to anecdotal evidence as to what's harsh or not (further complicated by individual variance in detecting different polyphenol compounds).

Haha ... so maybe i added nothing to the discussion really.

Nothing to see here. Carry on


----------

