# I Love No Chill



## manticle (19/11/10)

Nothing against chillers - even borrowed a plate chiller recently to see the difference myself. previous chilling has been in a bath full of as many ice bricks as I can muster.

However I've been no chilling for around a year and a half and numerous brews (one a week on average) and the freedom NC gives me is great. It's not really the idea of shortening a brew day - I couldn't give a rat's as I enjoy the process. However planning a starter, having specific wort to feed the starter, being able to brew even if I have to wait for yeast to arrive etc etc is great.

Also I use less water.

Big thumbs up for NC from me.


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## Guysmiley54 (19/11/10)

manticle said:


> Nothing against chillers - even borrowed a plate chiller recently to see the difference myself. previous chilling has been in a bath full of as many ice bricks as I can muster.
> 
> However I've been no chilling for around a year and a half and numerous brews (one a week on average) and the freedom NC gives me is great. It's not really the idea of shortening a brew day - I couldn't give a rat's as I enjoy the process. However planning a starter, having specific wort to feed the starter, being able to brew even if I have to wait for yeast to arrive etc etc is great.
> 
> ...



I am considering trying this for the first time. How do you account for IBU and flavour/aroma additions? Do you strain all hops before transferring to the cube?

I plan to pitch within 24 hours. Is there any reason why I shouldn't just transfer straight to my fermenter (in a temp controlled fridge)?

I mainly do partials at this point. My fridge can achieve freezing point and I have been considering freezing 5-10 litres of clean water in my sterilized fermenter (quantity depending on the recipe). The plan would be that the hot wort would cool nicely on the ice and be ready to pitch relatively quickly.

What do you think?


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## Brewman_ (19/11/10)

NC is great. Never had a problem yet.

I don't ever carry any hops from the boil into the cube, but often add fresh hops to the cube when filling.

I also use cleaned and sanitised cube, add the wort as hot as possible, and then top up with boiling water and squeeze any air out.

Fear


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## bignath (19/11/10)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I am considering trying this for the first time. How do you account for IBU and flavour/aroma additions? Do you strain all hops before transferring to the cube?
> 
> I plan to pitch within 24 hours. Is there any reason why I shouldn't just transfer straight to my fermenter (in a temp controlled fridge)?
> 
> ...



My 2cents worth...

i wouldn't put it straight into your fermenter to slowly drop temp for a number of reasons. 

1 If you are using your lid on your fermenter with the airlock, as the wort cools it will shrink, and in the process suck in all the water from your airlock into your brew, and then when it's all gone, it will suck in air and risk an infection. If you use gladwrap as your "lid" you will have the same problem. It will suck into your fermenter, and break the seal that is created by your o-ring holding it in place....

2 Using a cube resolves the above issue, and i find that once the wort is cooled to pitching temps, i can pick up cube and pour from a decent height into my fermenter, and this does a great job of aerating the wort as i pitch the yeast. 

Re: other questions.

Some people use hop bags for all hop additions, so this would effectively remove the hops from the wort. I use a hop bag if i'm using hop flowers as i don't have any output filtration in my boiler.
I have recently begun no chilling and i like it a lot. I (like most of us) lead a very hectic life, with the rugrats hanging off my leg all the time plus work responsibilities means that this method FOR ME is more flexible.
About the hop additions - i think, most people who no chill would bring all hop additions earlier (you most likely know this already) because you will get more IBU's from your additions as your wort cools slowly. From memory i think it's roughly 15mins or 20mins earlier. Could be wrong about the exact time. 
If you do a 20 flavour addition, maybe throw this addition in at flameout. If you do an aroma addition at flameout usually, then this would probably by a dry hop in primary fermentation.
I have been leaving my recipes completely unaltered lately as i want to get a feel for exactly what difference no chill makes to MY SYSTEM. 
Some people feel it makes a huge difference, others notice no change whatsoever....

Hope this helps mate,

Nath


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## Guysmiley54 (19/11/10)

Big Nath said:


> My 2cents worth...
> 
> i wouldn't put it straight into your fermenter to slowly drop temp for a number of reasons.
> 
> ...



Thanks Nath, will take that into consideration.

I haven't ever seen anyone mention that using a cube is adding another vessel to keep clean and santise before use. Anyone out there found that to be a pain?

To be honest, it's the hop additions that stop me from no chilling. I am at an early stage and I'm still learning about hop additions/timing/quantities. To throw another variable into the mix right now seems like it may really slow down the learning process.

I would love to see a poll, because it seems like A LOT of AHB folks do the No Chill B)


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## DJR (19/11/10)

> i wouldn't put it straight into your fermenter to slowly drop temp for a number of reasons.
> 
> 1 If you are using your lid on your fermenter with the airlock, as the wort cools it will shrink, and in the process suck in all the water from your airlock into your brew, and then when it's all gone, it will suck in air and risk an infection. If you use gladwrap as your "lid" you will have the same problem. It will suck into your fermenter, and break the seal that is created by your o-ring holding it in place....



Plenty of people do this. Just put a sanitised bottle cap over the hole in the lid.

I normally cube stuff and have been doing so for 3 years but the other day i just ran it into the fermenter. The only real difference is that with a cube you can leave some of the trub out and also aerate the brew a bit more, but you can always shake/stir/aquarium air pump some air into it.

Thinking of getting some cheap copper coil to build an immersion chiller though just for the convenience of being done rather than having to put a brew on before i go to work on a monday (usually brew on a sunday)


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## bignath (19/11/10)

Guysmiley54 said:


> Thanks Nath, will take that into consideration.
> 
> I haven't ever seen anyone mention that using a cube is adding another vessel to keep clean and santise before use. Anyone out there found that to be a pain?
> 
> ...




The felxibility no chill gives me greatly outweighs the comparitively small inconvenience of cleaning another vessel. Quick hot water rinse, pink cleaning powder, let it sit for an hour, have a beer or two, watch some sport, empty vessel, hot water then cold water, put away for another day....

If you have a recipe you want to try for your first no chill, throw it up on the forum and let someone run an eye on it for potential problems.

Lastly, one thing i have been finding interesting lately, is using beersmith (brewing software) to get a vague idea of a predicted outcome from no chill. I enter my hop additions, and then play around with the "increase time" button and add a few hours onto the addition. After a couple of hours it doesn't add much more in the way of IBU's so i've been trying to work backwards. Plan my hop additions around this so that after a few hours in no chill cube, the temp has probably dropped to less than 80 degrees so bitterness extraction is really an issue and then add this amount as my "no chill" version of a particular recipe. Hope this makes sense, it's all fun and games this brewing caper....


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## Silo Ted (19/11/10)

manticle said:


> It's not really the idea of shortening a brew day - I couldn't give a rat's as I enjoy the process. However planning a starter, having specific wort to feed the starter, being able to brew even if I have to wait for yeast to arrive etc etc is great.
> 
> Also I use less water.



Exactly. NC is great :kooi: Couldn't see myself using chillers anytime soon.


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## Barley Belly (19/11/10)

I love no chill too

Easy peasy

Instead of 60min, 10min & 5min hop additions I use :-

40min
Flameout
&
15min after whirlpool (5mins before draining to cube)

Works for me :beerbang:

Here's a copy of a suggested No Chill VS Chill hop usage guide


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## Phoney (19/11/10)

I used to NC, but since buying a plate chiller I havent looked back. The hop aroma & flavours in my beers since ive been properly chilling my wort has been nothing short of freaking awesome and well worth the little bit of extra time & effort putting into doing it properly. plus I dont have to stuff around and guess my hop additions backwards to compensate.

That said, the only advantage NC gives you is the time to pitch your wort into the fermenter whenever you want. ie: You must have your yeast, spare fermenter & space in your fermenting fridge ready to go as soon as you finish the boil otherwise.


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## manticle (20/11/10)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I am considering trying this for the first time. How do you account for IBU and flavour/aroma additions? Do you strain all hops before transferring to the cube?
> 
> I plan to pitch within 24 hours. Is there any reason why I shouldn't just transfer straight to my fermenter (in a temp controlled fridge)?
> 
> ...



Actually I don't worry too much about it. If you want to compensate, generally consider each addition has about 15-20 minutes extra added to it but for me, even hop bursted ales, no chilled have come out beautifully. I am developing more and more love for bitterness though - if entering a comp or if not so into bitter then maybe try compensating. 

People do slow chill (which is what you're doing transferring to the fermenter). It may work but it is a different process and has different principles to no-chill. No chill is heat packing wort into a sanitised container which is pasteurised (by the heat obviously) and sealed.

Next bit is general and not directed at GuySmiley

Didn't start this thread as a pissing contest between NC and Chilling by the way - just a tongue in cheek homage to a method that works well for me in response to the recent 'I hate no chill' thread.

Chill or no chill but whatever you do, have a beer and chill.


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## chappo1970 (20/11/10)

Ewwwww! Botulism city!


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## manticle (20/11/10)

Totally. Every time I eat DARREN's chicken from my DARREN"S no chill cube I DARREN die a little inside from DARREN botulism poisoning *******.

You still brewing mister?


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## chappo1970 (20/11/10)

We brew tomorrow morning mate. Raven inspired, otherwise I would couch it all day.


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## chappo1970 (20/11/10)

See what no chill does????


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## black_labb (20/11/10)

Don't think about the fact that you are no chilling the beer as a limitation, its an opportunity. You can cube hop which ends up working very well. the hop aroma is stuck in the cube and you get 15 minutes worth of bittering out of it. For alot of my beers I do a 60-90 min bittering addition and cube hopping. Sometimes i'll make a hop tea or dry hop. You can always do a hop burst in a hop tea to add to the brew after so half the aroma doesnt blow out the airlock.

Only limitation I can see is when trying to follow a recipe. I usually just simplify a recipe to bittering, cube hopping and dry/hop tea additions but thats just me. I like to be able to start the boil and not have to think about it for an hour.

I drain all the trub straight into the cube (every last drop) and put it on top of my stack of milkcrates (where my bottle conditioning beers are stored) and then syphon it out. It is very efficient this way at keeping trub out and wort in, and when its 4 milkcrates above the fermentor it comes out like a hose which aerates the wort very nicely. 

Yes, I do love no chill


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## chappo1970 (20/11/10)

Yes yes! Botulism is awesome!!!


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## Mattese (20/11/10)

Chappo has risen!!!


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## Peteoz77 (20/11/10)

Well, let me see.... I haven't read the other thread, so I'll just comment on how I feel about No Chill.

It works. I allows guys to make beer that THEY love to drink, without the cost or hassle of a chiller or the water that they use. I think it's perfectly suitable for those folks that do it, and love their beer.

I prefer to brew my beer with as much of the "Professional" style and equipment as I can. I feel that professional brewers have had thousands of years to try to perfect a system that balances cost with great beer. Most of the professionals DON'T brew great beer.. but that's not a fault of the equipment.

I have brewed in a fairly large commercial brewery (2000 litre batches), and I have learned a LOT while doing it. a few of those things that were really important, were getting the wort from the kettle quickly, through a chiller, and oxygenating the wort on it's way. Another was holding the beer at an exact temperature during the fermenting process (Glycol chiller jackets on the fermenters.) If anyone would like to see pictures of these very important features, I can supply them.

So, what I am saying is that truly great beers need specific processes and temperatures to make them taste great, and almost as important, consistent. A good Heffeweizen can NOT be fermented at 24 degrees, nor can it be no chilled. You will still make beer, but it won't be the same beer as if you fermented at 17 degrees and rapidly chilled it.

No chill is good, and it works and for the folks that do it an love it, it's the ticket. But a proper chilling method and even more importantly a proper fermentation temperature is vital if you are trying to make great beers.

Yes, I know some members have made award winning beers via no chill. Imagine if they had chilled and fermented at the proper temperature what that award winning beer might have tasted like?


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## mxd (20/11/10)

welcome back chap chap.


Chappo said:


> Yes yes! Botulism is awesome!!!


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## Silo Ted (20/11/10)

Pete, why can't a hefeweizen be NC'd?


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## ekul (20/11/10)

No chill allows me to pitch at the perfect temp all the time, every time. When i was chilling i could only get temps down to 24C at best, most of the time it was sitting at 30C.
While i don't think pitching at 24 and letting the wort cool in the fridge was too harmful my beers do taste slightly bettter when i've pitched at the right temp.

I really like the idea that i can knock out 6 batches in a weekend and ferment whenever i want. Work is heating up and i'm not going to get as much time for brewing as i used to, so i'm really glad i went to no chill. No empty fermenters for me!

Recently i discovered cube hopping, I made up two batches of a stone and wood clone. One bittering addition @ 30 and the rest in the cube. The intensity of flavour and aroma is not something i had been able to achieve with chilling. PLus i can do a double batch and end up with two different beers by hopping each cube differently, try do that with chilling! 

Nice chart Barley Belly, i only move mine back by 15min. I've only just started experimenting with cubes so i'll give the 20min move a go.


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## jakester (20/11/10)

I think there are alot of reasons people no chill out there. For me, as i work all day and usually very busy on weekends we tend to brew a fair bit on weekdays when we get home from work. Sometimes we end up at the end of boil at about 10pm so we just put it in the no chill cube, go to bed and its ready to pitch the next day. Works for us. 
When i first started no chill i didnt realize the bittering factor. We were brewing the Golden ale with a 60min addition and the end result was terrible. When i read on here some months ago we need to alter it i nearly fell over and have been experimenting to get it right ever since. That table is great, could be a big help. I too brewed a stone & wood ale this week, a heavily hopped beer and will add some to my secondary when i rack. If im using pellets, is it best to use a hop bag, make a tea or throw the pellets straight in?


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## felten (20/11/10)

Throw em straight in, commando style. But if you want to put them in a bag make sure its a big one so they aren't constricted.


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## Gavo (20/11/10)

Hey me ole mate Chappo is back... Sorry Chap CHap still no chillin here, will plan to try the chiller over Christmas though.

Oh and on topic, No chill is convenient and the main reason I use this method. I will be trying out a lovely plate chiller soon and maybe I will be converted to the chiller usage. 

Now two of my cubes are empty so I will refill them today with a faux American Lager.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## Duff (20/11/10)

I've no chilled for over 5 - 6 years with hundreds of batches done.

Of late, I'm thinking about going back to chilling as I'm lacking flavour compared to when I was brewing no chill in Sydney. I think it's the water here and will be amending next weekend for the first time. Maybe it's the heat as well as the cube stays hotter for longer, but it's just not right for some reason. The water test from yesterday indicates I need around 7 grams of gypsum and 5gm of salt to balance things out. Will see how that goes.


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## winkle (20/11/10)

Gavo said:


> Hey me ole mate Chappo is back... Sorry Chap CHap still no chillin here, will plan to try the chiller over Christmas though.
> 
> Oh and on topic, No chill is convenient and the main reason I use this method. I will be trying out a lovely plate chiller soon and maybe I will be converted to the chiller usage.
> 
> ...



Meh, he'll disappear again quicker than you can say - "Where's the goat spoof curry?"

+ convenience.
I'd better put an APA out of one and prep up the grain for a gose to goes into one.


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## Bribie G (20/11/10)

Now that Chap Chap has resurfaced, hopefully for a while, he will confirm that at his last brew day (Altstart, Ross, Me, CM3, Gravity Guru etc, )he offered a surplus plate chiller and no takers  - With the ambient water temps hereabouts and especially on sandy old Bribie plate or CF chilling is most inefficient and with our water charges the highest in the Western World, thanks Anna Blight, not an attractive thing. Also it's probably hard for people south of the Border to appreciate, but we genuinely do think before turning on the tap. We nearly ran out of water last year and now the dams are full, but we really did get on board and our water consumption is half that of NSW and Vic per head of pop. 
Fine if you have a tank or dam. 

As for commercials, they didn't go to flash chilling until well into the 20th Century but used coolships (big open flat pans) and in the case of breweries such as Urquell they were in use until fairly recently. Coolships also oxygenate the wort.  Still in use in some trad breweries - here's one still used in Belgium to make wits, geuze etc. Can't see why you wouldn't do a hefe.





The big commercials started using rapid cooling when they went into lager production - here's one from around the time of the First World War at Allsop's in London. It's a 'trickle down' refrigerated unit. I reckon a fridgie could make something similar from a couple of old bar fridges. It also oxygenates the wort. 
I would guess that commercially the major attraction of plate / CF chilling is recovery of waste heat, the ability to crank out three or four brews in the same day on the same kit, and hence $$



Fig. 5.REFRIGERATORS IN "LAGER" BREWERY OF MESSRS. ALLSOPP.
The hot wort trickles over the outside of the series of pipes, and is cooled
by the cold water which circulates in them. From the shallow collecting trays 
the cooled wort is conducted to the fermenting backs.


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## drew9242 (20/11/10)

I Love No Chill aswell. I have a copper immersion chiller, which i used to chill all the time. But i though i would try no chill one day just see how it works. Haven't turned back yet. Great time saver, especially as i do 2 batchs in one day, instead of taking me 7 hours i can cut it down too less then 6 hours. Then you can leave it for a week until fermenters and yeast starters are all ready, and then dump it. In quality department i myself am producing the best consitent beers ever in my short brewing life. 

I still got the imersion chiller just in case i may want to use it. But i doubt it would be anytime soon.


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## chappo1970 (20/11/10)

Gavo said:


> Hey me ole mate Chappo is back... Sorry Chap CHap still no chillin here, will plan to try the chiller over Christmas though.




:lol: Give a brewer a perfectly good plate chiller and what does he do? Uses it as a dust collector FFS!


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## Bribie G (20/11/10)

Aha, So Gavo took it - in the winter out there he'll be able to use it just by sticking it out of the window


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## manticle (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Well, let me see.... I haven't read the other thread, so I'll just comment on how I feel about No Chill.
> 
> It works. I allows guys to make beer that THEY love to drink, without the cost or hassle of a chiller or the water that they use. I think it's perfectly suitable for those folks that do it, and love their beer.
> 
> ...



Compare apples with apples though. For a large commercial brewer, no chill is completely impractical. Not only would they need a giant cube and some very strong knees, they're generally wanting to get fermenting as quickly as possible, not wait the week that 10,000 decalitres will take to cool.

Home brewing has been around at least as long as professional brewing and the reason they 'get things right' is because they continually analyse and shift perspective where necessary. I don't buy the 'if it works commercially, it must work that way on an HB scale' because there are so many different contexts.

No chill is a proven method, as is chilling and speculation on what a beer 'might' taste like had it been brewed differently or fermented differently isn't much use really.


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## raven19 (20/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Now that Chap Chap has resurfaced, hopefully for a while...



I take full responsibility for getting him back on the horse. Or is that raven pie?

Anyway back on topic - awesome historical pics there Bribie.

I have a plate chiller now, but some brews that have minimal or nil late hopping I might still NC. Certainly saves an hour on the brew day when you dont have to recirc pbw thru the chiller, etc, etc,...


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## Gavo (20/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Now that Chap Chap has resurfaced, hopefully for a while, he will confirm that at his last brew day (Altstart, Ross, Me, CM3, Gravity Guru etc, )he offered a surplus plate chiller and no takers



Ah there was a taker, I stuck me hand up  ... no water problems here, full weir, full tanks and full swimming pool. Just haven't had time to try it out yet. It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

Gavo

Edit: geez, sorry Chappo just there's been a lot of shit happening here lately and frankly haven't had time nor the inclination to get it up and running.. As said, much appreciated and will happen.


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## matr (20/11/10)

So if you removed all hop debris at the end of the boil would you still have to adjust? Is it the actual hops remaining that causes the increase in IBU or the hop oils. With my limited knowledge I would have thought if you took them out you can't extract any more bitterness...

Like making a cup of tea. If you pull the tea bag out but let the cup sit it won't get any stronger.

Cheers, Mat


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## Gavo (20/11/10)

Yeah you can remove the hop debris but the compounds are still there ismorizing or whatever that word is - adding bitterness.

Dons flame suit and sits back with the popcorn. h34r: 

Gavo.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/11/10)

Chilling is more important for some beer styles than others, I believe.

Pilsners and such lagers should be chilled. Aussie Lagers should be chilled even further. Some ales can be enjoyed at room temperature in cooler climates, thus qualifying for No Chill.


Or am I missing something...


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## Gavo (20/11/10)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Chilling is more important for some beer styles than others, I believe.
> 
> Pilsners and such lagers should be chilled. Aussie Lagers should be chilled even further. Some ales can be enjoyed at room temperature in cooler climates, thus qualifying for No Chill.
> 
> ...




Gold :lol: 

By the way Chappo - answer your Pm's


Gavo.


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## goomboogo (20/11/10)

A question for Peteoz77. You mentioned a couple times, the need to ferment at correct temperature. You won't get any argument about that but what has no-chill got to do with fermentation temperature? You can no-chill and still ferment in the range of acceptable temps for the particular yeast exactly the same as if the wort was chilled immediately after brewing.

I will point out that I have never no-chilled. However, I may try it one day as I am open to the idea.


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## Peteoz77 (20/11/10)

No chill has nothing to do with fermentation temp, I merely pointed it out because I believe it is the second most important factor in the taste of your beer (after yeast selection... and of course hops).

I have two fermentation fridges, so if I don't chill the wort enough, it's still in temp within an hour or so.

I also have a 5,000 litre water tank that only cost me $400 (after my $400 rebate) and I recirculate from that, so I don't use any water essentially.

Tell you what I'm going to do. Next batch I'll cube half of the wort, and chill the other half. I'll ferment them both in the same fridge, and we'll see if there is a taste difference.

Maybe you will convert me......


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## Silo Ted (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Tell you what I'm going to do. Next batch I'll cube half of the wort, and chill the other half. I'll ferment them both in the same fridge, and we'll see if there is a taste difference.
> 
> Maybe you will convert me......



I don't think anyone's trying to convert others. Its just a practical solution for many, which allows more versatile brewing. There's enough NC'd beers winning awards (if you want a measure) to suggest that overall there aren't any negative effects.

If you have not NC'd before, its highly unlikely you will have the same results between the two. Especially if youre draining the same hopped wort into two samples. For no chillers, its about refining your methods to reach targets, and with any new system or step it takes time to get to know your own 'thing'. SO even if you did two batches, if its your first run with NC you wont get what you expected. 

You will taste a difference, as its an experiment that has no merit.


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## Steve (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Maybe you will convert me......



If that happens (which I doubt) can I have your chiller as im thinking of going back to chilling :lol:


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## manticle (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Maybe you will convert me......



I'm about to try a plate chiller (well couple of weeks at least when I next brew). Always good to try new things/things you haven't tried before.

Think I need to brew two hopbursted APAS and two simpler 3 addition brews and see what difference I notice.


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## jimi (20/11/10)

Duff said:


> I've no chilled for over 5 - 6 years with hundreds of batches done.
> 
> Of late, I'm thinking about going back to chilling as I'm lacking flavour compared to when I was brewing no chill in Sydney. I think it's the water here and will be amending next weekend for the first time. Maybe it's the heat as well as the cube stays hotter for longer, but it's just not right for some reason. The water test from yesterday indicates I need around 7 grams of gypsum and 5gm of salt to balance things out. Will see how that goes.



Much like you Duff, NCing has served me well but there is no denying that the aroma and hop flavour is not on par with chilling. Certainly lots of conviences to it and if you aren't doing a noticeable hop beer you don't lose anything, BUT if you want your hops to sing it ain't there from my experience. If I can save enough I'll get a plate and get back to chilling my hoppy beers I think


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## felten (20/11/10)

matr said:


> If you pull the tea bag out but let the cup sit it won't get any stronger.


That's not entirely true, I have one of those breville tea makers and regularily make up a large batch of tea in it, the first cup is nectar but as you leave it hot for longer it gets darker, stronger, and more tannic.

Completely OT but whatever!


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## Silo Ted (20/11/10)

jimi said:


> Much like you Duff, NCing has served me well but there is no denying that the aroma and hop flavour is not on par with chilling. Certainly lots of conviences to it and if you aren't doing a noticeable hop beer you don't lose anything, BUT if you want your hops to sing it ain't there from my experience. If I can save enough I'll get a plate and get back to chilling my hoppy beers I think



This is something I don't notice but I haven't chilled, and noone I know does beer styles like I do, so there's no comparison for me to make. What are your thoughts on decanting a couple of litres of wort when you are about to pitch, then do a mini-boil of flavour & flameout hops to add into the fermenter?


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## Silo Ted (20/11/10)

matr said:


> Like making a cup of tea. If you pull the tea bag out but let the cup sit it won't get any stronger.



Not much of a comparison. Tea leaves and hops are quite different beasts.


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## Howlingdog (20/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Now that Chap Chap has resurfaced, hopefully for a while, he will confirm that at his last brew day (Altstart, Ross, Me, CM3, Gravity Guru etc, )he offered a surplus plate chiller and no takers  - With the ambient water temps hereabouts and especially on sandy old Bribie plate or CF chilling is most inefficient and with our water charges the highest in the Western World, thanks Anna Blight, not an attractive thing. Also it's probably hard for people south of the Border to appreciate, but we genuinely do think before turning on the tap. We nearly ran out of water last year and now the dams are full, but we really did get on board and our water consumption is half that of NSW and Vic per head of pop.
> Fine if you have a tank or dam.
> 
> As for commercials, they didn't go to flash chilling until well into the 20th Century but used coolships (big open flat pans) and in the case of breweries such as Urquell they were in use until fairly recently. Coolships also oxygenate the wort.  Still in use in some trad breweries - here's one still used in Belgium to make wits, geuze etc. Can't see why you wouldn't do a hefe.
> ...


Here is a reason why the commercials now use plate chillers instead of coolships - RAF base nearby spews contaminants all over the roof.


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## edddy57 (20/11/10)

I love NC. Tried the immersion thing but the convenience of the NC outweighs any other issues. Particularly for lagers you can get the temp to the right pitching temp before pouring into the fermenter. No chiller will get wort down to 10 - 11 degrees ready for pitching. 

I use the the 15 - 20 mins time adjustments for hops ie. 

- Roughly 45 mins boil for bittering
- Favour hops are put in a hop sock and placed into cube with the hot wor
- Do a hop tea when fermentation about 75% done. Add through blow off hole using funnel

At the end of the day brewing is all experimentation. If you prefer increased flavour or bitterness you adjust the timings or hop additions next time.

Cleaning another container isn't an issue. I just give a good rinse, add napisan, bit of hot water and fill with cold water and leave a few days ... rinse and store (no more and 4 - 5 mins). just add some starsan before using again.

Some say there can be an increased problem with clarity and chill haze. I use gelatine (depending on yeast) and then polyclar..... never had a problem. 



Eddy


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## Steve (20/11/10)

Barley Belly said:


> I love no chill too
> 
> Easy peasy
> 
> ...



BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
Cheers
Steve


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## Bribie G (20/11/10)

I run crystal clear wort into my cubes and have never cube hopped due to green gunk, but I assume that would settle out after fermentation ok?


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## manticle (20/11/10)

Pretty much.

Actually most of it will settle with cold break overnight. I pour mostly clear wort into my fermenters after cube hopping. Tiny bit gets in, I leave most of the gunk behind. What's left drops during ferment.


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## felten (20/11/10)

You can pour the whole thing in, it settles out alright. I have poured through a sanitised sieve before to remove some plugs hops in the cube but smaller amounts aren't a problem. If I was cube hopping a large amount I would go with a hop bag.


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## black_labb (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Well, let me see.... I haven't read the other thread, so I'll just comment on how I feel about No Chill.
> 
> It works. I allows guys to make beer that THEY love to drink, without the cost or hassle of a chiller or the water that they use. I think it's perfectly suitable for those folks that do it, and love their beer.
> 
> ...






Peteoz77 said:


> No chill has nothing to do with fermentation temp, I merely pointed it out because I believe it is the second most important factor in the taste of your beer (after yeast selection... and of course hops).
> 
> I have two fermentation fridges, so if I don't chill the wort enough, it's still in temp within an hour or so.
> 
> ...



By agreeing to try NC are you saying that your earlier suggestion that NC is inherrantly limited/inferior is mindless shittalking or do you have any information to give the unlearned masses of lazy NC brewers?

Sorry if thats a bit harsh but your backing of the claim is that you've done batches at a commercial brewery and "learned some things". What is bad about the beer taking time from the boiler to the fermenter? If its bad to take 24 hrs instead of half an hour, why arent the cubes that are 6 months old showing the flaw in a notceable way?

I completely encourage you to try NC. I'm not saying its better but if you're going to say that it produces inferior beer for whatever reason please explain. Being experienced in making beer using a chiller of some sort doesnt mean that you know any science about no chilling. it just means you are comfortable with something else.

Please feel completely free to say you were talking out of the ass if you were. I'm sure I've done it plenty of times.


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## Steve (20/11/10)

black_labb said:


> By agreeing to try NC are you saying that your earlier suggestion that NC is inherrantly limited/inferior is mindless shittalking or do you have any information to give the unlearned masses of lazy NC brewers?
> 
> Sorry if thats a bit harsh but your backing of the claim is that you've done batches at a commercial brewery and "learned some things". What is bad about the beer taking time from the boiler to the fermenter? If its bad to take 24 hrs instead of half an hour, why arent the cubes that are 6 months old showing the flaw in a notceable way?
> 
> ...



Pete and I have made the same recipes, exact same technique but he chills and I no chill overnight in the fermenter and his beers are better than mine regarding flavour and aroma. Plain and simple. Admittedly I brew with the same hop additions as a chiller does so im interested in exploring the no chill hop additions. Pete rarely talks out of his "ass".
Cheers
Steve


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## black_labb (20/11/10)

Steve said:


> Pete and I have made the same recipes, exact same technique but he chills and I no chill overnight in the fermenter and his beers are better than mine regarding flavour and aroma. Plain and simple. Admittedly I brew with the same hop additions as a chiller does so im interested in exploring the no chill hop additions. Pete rarely talks out of his "ass".
> Cheers
> Steve



Well theres some information that could have been relevant to making him not seeming to be talking out of his ass. As you say the hopping methods were not adjusted for the equipment so that still doesnt give him a better stance unless his stance is ignorance.

I dont really like to come across hostile like this but he has come across all high and mighty without anything to back it up. If he likes to use a plate chiller that's fine, but it doesnt mean that his method is superior and inherrantly makes better beer.


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## Silo Ted (20/11/10)

Steve said:


> BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
> Cheers
> Steve



The table largely follows a rule of -20min, easy enough for anyone to follow. The FWH comparison is of some interest, and also conjecture.


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## Peteoz77 (20/11/10)

Well, you see Black Lab, I really don't care if you or anyone else thinks I am talking out of my arse or not. I give my input, same as everyone else. I try to qualify it by saying that I have worked in a commercial brewery, not because it means I am higher or mightier, only so you know that I have assisted in making a great commercial beer.. with chilling, not without. I have never said that NC is wrong, or bad, only that chilling seems to be the preferred method for a large portion of brewers worldwide, and that it SEEMS to give a much better result.

I have also said that I will attempt to do half a batch as NC, and the other half chilling, so as to compare the two... giving NC a 100% completely fair chance. I have no preconceived notions as to which will be superior.

Is there anything else I can do for you to assure you that I feel no higher or mightier than thou?


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## black_labb (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> So, what I am saying is that truly great beers need specific processes and temperatures to make them taste great, and almost as important, consistent. A good Heffeweizen can NOT be fermented at 24 degrees, nor can it be no chilled. You will still make beer, but it won't be the same beer as if you fermented at 17 degrees and rapidly chilled it.
> 
> No chill is good, and it works and for the folks that do it an love it, it's the ticket.  But a proper chilling method and even more importantly a proper fermentation temperature is vital if you are trying to make great beers.
> 
> Yes, I know some members have made award winning beers via no chill. Imagine if they had chilled and fermented at the proper temperature what that award winning beer might have tasted like?




So you are not full of shit aside from the underlined comments from above?


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## jyo (20/11/10)

I love no-chill. It's just so convenient to be able to ferment when I want.
It is turning out to be a reliable method of brewing, for me anyway. I simply use something similar to the above table in regards to hop additions. In the warmer months, when the cube takes even longer to cool, I reduce my 60 minute additions down to 30.

My first 5 batches of AG were chilled over a 2-3 hour period using an ice bath. Was the hop aroma better? Absolutely, without a doubt. 
However, I am still able to achieve fairly reliable bitterness and aroma levels that I am more than happy with by using a cube. Whirlpool and cube hops nearly achieve what a flameout addition does, in my limited experience. 

In saying that, my goal in brewing is to have a 3 tier set up in a couple of years that will include a plate chiller. It may not always get used, but having the option would great. :icon_cheers: 
Cheers, John.


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## Peteoz77 (20/11/10)

black_labb said:


> So you are not full of shit aside from the underlined comments from above?



Dude, if you want to have shitfight over your method of chilling/not chilling, please choose to have it with someone who really cares. I'm not going to argue with you, no matter how much you dig, OK?


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## manticle (20/11/10)

black_labb said:


> So you are not full of shit aside from the underlined comments from above?



Pete gave the benefit of his experience. He may not have worded it perfectly and I may not agree with what he wrote but it would be nice to see a thread not degenerate into pointless insult trading for once. Just because you can't look each other in the face doesn't mean you can't discuss the finer points of each perspective with a modicum of diplomacy.

Disagreement is good and healthy but no need to try and emulate question time.

I know I sound like a school teacher and I don't mean to but the number of threads that just become internet pissing contests is more than I would like and I certainly don't want to have created one of them. 

Pete is interested in trying No-chill. Pete has some experience that may be of interest to fellow brewers but has admitted he doesn't know everything (inferred from the fact that he is willing to give something a go).

None of us know everything - that's why we give things a go and talk about our experiences here.


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## jlm (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Well, you see Black Lab, I really don't care if you or anyone else thinks I am talking out of my arse or not. I give my input, same as everyone else. I try to qualify it by saying that I have worked in a commercial brewery, not because it means I am higher or mightier, only so you know that I have assisted in making a great commercial beer.. with chilling, not without. I have never said that NC is wrong, or bad, only that chilling seems to be the preferred method for a large portion of brewers worldwide, and that it SEEMS to give a much better result.
> 
> I have also said that I will attempt to do half a batch as NC, and the other half chilling, so as to compare the two... giving NC a 100% completely fair chance. I have no preconceived notions as to which will be superior.
> 
> Is there anything else I can do for you to assure you that I feel no higher or mightier than thou?



Hey Pete, if you do the chill/no chill split batch i'd be keen to see the results on a hefe. I agree that on hop driven beers chilling gives a better result, but on a low bittered beer where much of the character comes from the yeast, I would have thought the results would come out near identical (assuming ferment regimes are the same ect). Would make a good test I think.


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## black_labb (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> Dude, if you want to have shitfight over your method of chilling/not chilling, please choose to have it with someone who really cares. I'm not going to argue with you, no matter how much you dig, OK?



Sorry if I've come across a bit aggressive. I only want to know why you said the underlined things. I'm here to share and gain information. saying that no chill is going to make an inferior hefe or beer in general without backing it up is something i wanted to call you out on as they are somewhat bold statements to say without information to back it up, which you havent even hinted at knowing. 

I dont want an arguement (though I admit i didnt go about it correctly). 

I'll admit I came across too aggressively, I'm sorry about that. 
Will you admit that those statements are based on intuition or similar instead of theory or experimentation?


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## felten (20/11/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> I have also said that I will attempt to do half a batch as NC, and the other half chilling, so as to compare the two... giving NC a 100% completely fair chance. I have no preconceived notions as to which will be superior.



If you aren't altering the hop schedule for NC then they will definitely turn out different, one better than the other? well that might depend on the hopping amounts/schedule. NC is just a different process that you have to factor in when you're designing a recipe IMO.


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## barls (20/11/10)

ok guys the beer that won the specialty category at bitter and twisted was no chill, i know because i was there when it was brewed and still have my cube of it.
also myself and a fair few others have done quite well at comps with them.


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## thesunsettree (20/11/10)

ummm...wasnt blacklabb arguing FOR nc????


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## dr K (20/11/10)

I am a 100% No chill fan.
To me it makes doing well in comps so much easier.

K


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## goomboogo (20/11/10)

Chill dudes. Or don't.


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## barls (20/11/10)

my bad ive been drinking


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## hoohaaman (20/11/10)

I use to chill with a plate chiller,changed over to no chill to chase down an infection.Two years later still NC.

I am willing to sacrifice the small aroma loss for the sheer convenience NC provides me.I haven't made massive changes if any to most of my recipe hop schedules.Maybe I just don't notice increased IBU's anymore 

I have done hundreds of NC,with only two swollen cubes,both my fault because of crap cube with bad sealing lid and a good willow cube i didn't seal properly and sucked in bad shit.Both were really early on when first trying NC.

I personally doubt I'll ever use my plate chiller again.

Oh I store my cubes for months,sometimes.


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## Barley Belly (20/11/10)

Steve said:


> BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
> Cheers
> Steve



Not 100% who, but I'm sure someone posted it up on here back when I was starting out in AG. Used it as a guide and it has worked for me or my palate has worked to it vice versa.


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## bum (20/11/10)

I love/hate the process with which I am familar/unfamilar.


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## Lecterfan (20/11/10)

bum said:


> I love/hate the process with which I am familar/unfamilar.




:lol:


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## goomboogo (20/11/10)

bum said:


> I love/hate the process with which I am familar/unfamilar.



(Insert accent here)Please explain?


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## [email protected] (20/11/10)

I semi chill using the no-chill method.

I transfer my hot wort in to a cube - also do cube hopping etc , sit for a few minutes to sanitise the lid etc and then place in the pool to cool. I generally am down to a temperature of 25 degC in about an hour. I then place into the fridge to get to pitching temp and transfer to fermenter when I have time. This usually within 24 hours. I'm planning to do two batches in one day and pitch the second batch when the first batch is finished fermenting in two weeks time as I only have room for one fermenter in the fridge at one time. Using the "chill" option allows me to follow traditional hopping regimes and seems to work out OK.

Does anyone do the same? And if they do what is the longest time they have left the cube unfermented (given you have applied "chilling") and still have not had any issues? Does this method give similar results to chilling using a heat exchanger?

I like this method as gives me clean break during the brew day especially with family and kids.


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## hoohaaman (20/11/10)

Barley Belly said:


> Not 100% who, but I'm sure someone posted it up on here back when I was starting out in AG. Used it as a guide and it has worked for me or my palate has worked to it vice versa.



Comes from the yank site http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-...brewing-117111/

I'm pretty sure.At 51 pages I'm not searching


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## DUANNE (20/11/10)

are we still arguing about chill no chill? atleast 30 batches in ive had no cube infections and even more unbelievably no botulism.do you get cold break , clear beer or more bitterness or less aroma? personally i dont care im making beer that i enjoy and thats what its all about isnt it.i nc because it suits my life style and timing and honestly if i went to chilling now i would probably take quite a while to adjust to that with the first few beers being most likely not as good as what im doing now. that must mean chilling doesnt work and nc is better.


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## black_labb (21/11/10)

a few too many homebrew's and I'll try to gain support, but may end up digging my hole deeper. hopefully I can keep my wobbly flagpole above the crowds.

My issue with Pete's original message was that he was making claims that were supported by no evidence. 

I thought it would be a noble cause to push him to retract his statements or to provide some evidence. I went a bit strong and aggressive which ends up causing the target to become defensive and feeiling that if they agree with me they are losing the arguement. I made the arguement more aggressive by attacking pete specifically which makes it difficult to admit defeat without being made out to be an idiot. I set it up pretty quickly that I wanted pete to admit to shit talking. I think that I should have been more charismatic instead of trying to belittle or force pete to admit to shittalking.

I still would like to hear wether there is some information backing the calims pete, but I understand that I have been a bit aggressive and condescending which may lead you to avoid it. Please, for the sake of others please share. If anyone else has an explanation or speculation please speak up. I am actually in support of the sharing of information to improve beers not to stir shit. 

Pete, please give no chill a go and decide for yourself. I will not criticise your experiment. I would encourage you to post a planned recipe including the hopping scheduele before you try it so that you have some advice in compensating,


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## Hatchy (21/11/10)

I no chill because I don't have a chiller. Once I get a chiller I'll chill. To save water with a chiller I'd cube my chill water & use it as strike water for the next brewday.

I like the swimming pool idea, during summer I might take cubes to the beach with me & chill in the ocean.

My guess is that a beer with only a 60 minute addition would end up exactly the same chilled or no chilled but I'd prefer to chill beers with lots of late hops.


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## jakester (21/11/10)

I too have thought about putting the NC cube into the pool to cool it quicker but as i am trying to get tweak my recipes to work with the no chill method i might be taking another step backwards. My times might be all wrong again due to the wort cooling down alot quicker in the nc cube?
So if you can cool a nc in the pool in an hour or so but still leave it to a convenient time to pitch, like the next day or even week, would you still use the nc adjusted hopping schedule or would you go via the normal recipe schedule? Whats the said time frame that would make all the difference in the bittering dept.?
I agree with the posters who say you get the best beer with whatever works best for your gear, not who has the best gear. Thats why i ask questions on here and like topics like this, great reading if we could delete the pissing contests that can take place here sometimes.


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## Steve (21/11/10)

Ivesy said:


> I too have thought about putting the NC cube into the pool to cool it quicker but as i am trying to get tweak my recipes to work with the no chill method i might be taking another step backwards. My times might be all wrong again due to the wort cooling down alot quicker in the nc cube?
> So if you can cool a nc in the pool in an hour or so but still leave it to a convenient time to pitch, like the next day or even week, would you still use the nc adjusted hopping schedule or would you go via the normal recipe schedule? Whats the said time frame that would make all the difference in the bittering dept.?
> I agree with the posters who say you get the best beer with whatever works best for your gear, not who has the best gear. Thats why i ask questions on here and like topics like this, great reading if we could delete the pissing contests that can take place here sometimes.




I'd be going the normal hop schedule if cooling in the pool over an hour Ivesy. Maybe tweak the 60 min addition to 50 min instead of the 40 min slow no chill?


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## Bribie G (21/11/10)

Yesterday evening I cube hopped for the first time ( 30 EKG into a Speckled Hen attempt) and keen to sniff the resulting wort when I pitch later on today. This morning cube was cool enough to pop into my lager fridge without it going "WTF  " so looking at late afternoon if my Wy 1968 London ESB is up to the job.


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## jakester (21/11/10)

Thanks Steve, next brew i might adjust by ten minutes and see how it goes, that way i might sort of get best of both worlds without changing recipe too much. Might even throw on the burners and brew today if i get the time and see how long it takes to cool for me. Cheers.


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## chappo1970 (21/11/10)

I think I have botulism? Or I got really really hammered last night?


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## stux (21/11/10)

Steve said:


> BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
> Cheers
> Steve



Its The Pol's No Chill hop conversion table from Homebrewtalk.com

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-...tml#post1351694


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## nala (21/11/10)

Steve said:


> BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
> Cheers
> Steve


Is it possible to reduce the amount of hops rather than adjust time, would this not come to the same IBU's and save on amount of hops used ?


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## bum (21/11/10)

As long as bitterness is your only concern. You'll lose flavour and aroma too.


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## Goofinder (21/11/10)

nala said:


> Is it possible to reduce the amount of hops rather than adjust time, would this not come to the same IBU's and save on amount of hops used ?


I just aim for around 5IBU less and don't worry about anything else. I do remove the hops from the wort before cubing though (hopscreen).

As far as I'm concerned, the whole time adjustment thing is a waste of time, but then I've never chilled so maybe I don't know what I'm missing out on.


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## Batz (21/11/10)

OK I wasn't going to enter this debate....but
I have no chilled for years and I'm pleased with the results, this winter I decided use the chiller again and have done so for the last 6 or more months. I firmly believe my beers where better when I _no chilled_, like others I only NC overnight and always pitch the next day.
To me it amounts to the difference in having a single or double brew day. The chiller here is going to collect cob webs once again.

Batz


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## Duff (21/11/10)

It's good input regardless Batz.

After 5 - 6 years of no chilling, and nothing else, I went and bought 18m of copper tube today to start immersion chilling again. I'll know for sure whether the beers are different after the first couple of batches.


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## Gavo (21/11/10)

Chappo said:


> I think I have botulism? Or I got really really hammered last night?



Oh crap I think I get botulism at least once a week  ... Is that because I NC?

Cheers
Gavo


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## Florian (21/11/10)

I have so far no chilled most of my beers. I got however a copper coil immersion chiller from someone who gave up brewing for free and have used it once. As I (until now) have mostly brewed lagers, the immersion chiller just doesn't cut it, as the Queensland tap water is just way to warm. It took me an hour to bring my wort close to 20 degrees with rain water which I recirculated back into the tank afterwards, I then switched to tap water and only managed to bring it down to around 18 degrees, which is still way to warm to pitch a large starter of lager yeast into. I have transferred this wort into the fermenter and left it to cool overnight, then used an aquarium pump to aerate it. Not surprisingly at all the beer did not turn out to well, and the extra amount of time I put in was not justified. So my immersion chiller is standing in a corner now, getting dusty.
Might pull it out again one day when brewing ales, but even then, I did not enjoy the whole dicking around with water hoses and stuff. 

No chill it is for me!


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## Steve (21/11/10)

Batz said:


> OK I wasn't going to enter this debate....but
> I have no chilled for years and I'm pleased with the results, this winter I decided use the chiller again and have done so for the last 6 or more months. I firmly believe my beers where better when I _no chilled_, like others I only NC overnight and always pitch the next day.
> To me it amounts to the difference in having a single or double brew day. The chiller here is going to collect cob webs once again.
> 
> Batz



Do you use the table shown earlier Batz? How do you work out your additions?


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## Batz (21/11/10)

Steve said:


> Do you use the table shown earlier Batz? How do you work out your additions?




No I don't Steve, in fact I don't find a great difference. The interesting part is I find bitterness a little more in chilled beers, flavour and aroma I find much the same with both, goes against the popular beliefs but I call it as I find it.

Batz


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## black_labb (21/11/10)

Barley Belly said:


> I love no chill too
> 
> Easy peasy
> 
> ...




Thats a useful table for converting recipe's or for someone going from NC to cooling or cooling to NC.

I find once you start using NC you start to form your own methods and get an idea when to put your hops in to make your beer. People spend too much time comparing it to traditional hopping levels.

its like comparing a piece of meat roasted in the oven or spitroasted over a campfire. If you've roasted meat many times in the oven consistently and then do it the same way but spitroasted over a campfire it will end up differently.


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## [email protected] (21/11/10)

Ivesy said:


> I too have thought about putting the NC cube into the pool to cool it quicker but as i am trying to get tweak my recipes to work with the no chill method i might be taking another step backwards. My times might be all wrong again due to the wort cooling down alot quicker in the nc cube?
> So if you can cool a nc in the pool in an hour or so but still leave it to a convenient time to pitch, like the next day or even week, would you still use the nc adjusted hopping schedule or would you go via the normal recipe schedule? Whats the said time frame that would make all the difference in the bittering dept.?
> I agree with the posters who say you get the best beer with whatever works best for your gear, not who has the best gear. Thats why i ask questions on here and like topics like this, great reading if we could delete the pissing contests that can take place here sometimes.



Ivesy,

You can follow normal hop schedules. I suspect that the wort is below 70-80 degC within the first 10-15mins halting any isomerisation. I say the time my wort is isomerising is about 20-25mins by the time I whirlpool etc and transfer. This time would be quicker or the same as any commercial brews that can take quite sime time before the whole wort is transfered and cooled. The cube gives the added advantage of cube hopping. 

Any flameout addition/cube hop gets added in for a few minutes when using beersmith to account for any IBUs it may add. This is particularly important if you are using a high Alpha acid hop in a low IBU beer e.g. a stone and wood clone.


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## chappo1970 (21/11/10)

Batz said:


> OK I wasn't going to enter this debate....but
> I have no chilled for years and I'm pleased with the results, this winter I decided use the chiller again and have done so for the last 6 or more months. I firmly believe my beers where better when I _no chilled_, like others I only NC overnight and always pitch the next day.
> To me it amounts to the difference in having a single or double brew day. The chiller here is going to collect cob webs once again.
> 
> Batz



Totally agree with ya Batz! Since I have been NCing no problems. No infections and most importantly consistent beers. Plate chiller I had is now donated to Gavo and his beery endeavours. 


(Just been throwing a line out with the botulism  . I was certain i would catch a big snapper  )


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## bradsbrew (21/11/10)

Chappo said:


> (Just been throwing a line out with the botulism  . I was certain i would catch a big snapper  )



FFS Chappo i believed you and threw out all my cubes today............................

Nah you know me Chap I dont throw anything out.


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## dr K (21/11/10)

> I still would like to hear wether there is some information backing the calims pete, but I understand that I have been a bit aggressive and condescending which may lead you to avoid it. Please, for the sake of others please share. If anyone else has an explanation or speculation please speak up. I am actually in support of the sharing of information to improve beers not to stir shit.



Condescending, I think not, after all in order to be condescending a modicum of intelligence is required so clearly blacklabb you were not.
Pete is not "claiming" anything, he is merely noting that standard commercial practice, from micro's to megas is to to chill as quickly and efficiently as possible, yes there are commercial considerations, for example if your beer is shit people won't buy it, but having said that lots of HB people no-chill, many as this thread shows have both chilled and no chilled and settled on no chill.
To be brutally honest you are not going to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and as such chill or no chill makes no difference to the final product.

K


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## outbreak (21/11/10)

Keeping in minf that I am fairly new to brewing... but I thought getting the fermentation process down pat would be more important to the homebrewer rather than the chilling method. No chill made sense to me as it uses less water and I can pitch the yeast the next day.


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## chappo1970 (21/11/10)

No chill works for me its that simple. I challenge anyone to pick it in a well made beer.




bradsbrew said:


> FFS Chappo i believed you and threw out all my cubes today............................
> 
> Nah you know me Chap I dont throw anything out.



Yes... Yes I do.. :lol: 

Bottle tops anyone??? h34r:


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## bradsbrew (21/11/10)

Chappo said:


> Yes... Yes I do..
> Bottle tops anyone???



:lol: ......................................................................... <_< ................................................


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## Gavo (21/11/10)

Just tasted my last NC eight grain mongrel APA. Heaps of flavor and aroma. It was NC in the fermenters in the fermenter fridge overnight and yeast pitched within 18 hours.

Gavo.

Edit: I think I may get botulism Chappo style with this one.


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## Shed101 (21/11/10)

Batz said:


> The interesting part is I find bitterness a little more in chilled beers, flavour and aroma I find much the same with both, goes against the popular beliefs but I call it as I find it.



That's interesting, because I actually assumed that bitterness would be less with no-chill and the beer that I no-chilled and Screwface chilled came out far less bitter than I expected. It's the only n/c i've tried though.

You can get fucked if you think i'm ever going to buy a chiller though. Shit, people have been making beer for centuries without chilling it. Read an 18th century book about brewing and strangely enough there's no mention of it and they turned out all the beer that people try to emulate nowadays.

IMO (no H) the only reason people did start chilling it was for commercial reasons. 

But there's nowt as strange as folks with different strokes doing owt for nowt for thisen.


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## Bribie G (21/11/10)

In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries following the invention of the thermometer, UK and Continental breweries were fanatical about temperature control, especially during fermentation. They did this by means of heat exchange pipes passing through the fermenting vessels, called attemperators which they used to cool or heat the fermenting beer, and in the Yorkshire Stone Square system, the squares were one inside another with a water jacket surrounding the brew, which enabled them to control it to within a fraction of a degree.
But as Shed pointed out, no particular whiz bang method of wort cooling. Interesting.


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## black_labb (21/11/10)

dr K said:


> Condescending, I think not, after all in order to be condescending a modicum of intelligence is required so clearly blacklabb you were not.
> Pete is not "claiming" anything, he is merely noting that standard commercial practice, from micro's to megas is to to chill as quickly and efficiently as possible, yes there are commercial considerations, for example if your beer is shit people won't buy it, but having said that lots of HB people no-chill, many as this thread shows have both chilled and no chilled and settled on no chill.
> To be brutally honest you are not going to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and as such chill or no chill makes no difference to the final product.
> 
> K



Yes condescending was the wrong word. 

He was infact claiming that beer from chilled wort would be better than beer from unchilled wort, and that a good hefenweizer was not able to be made using no chill. 

I disagree with both statements and wanted to hear what information he has that he used to form these statements. 

I came across like an asshole which I regret. I would have much prefered to be able to have a discussion about his view on the issue but I made the discussion unenjoyable. Having said that he still hasnt presented any information. Maybe he knows something no one else does and I stopped him from sharing it. Most likely those statements have no substance to back them up.


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## Peteoz77 (22/11/10)

I have nothing further to say. 
This argument cannot be won by either side. 
I have put my statements out there, and you can take them on board, or shrug them off. 
I have no concerns over whether you believe me or not.
Now, can we please move forward, or continue to be bogged down?


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## JestersDarts (22/11/10)

Take a chill pill.


If you can swallow it through all the bitterness..


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## zebba (22/11/10)

JestersDarts said:


> Take a chill pill.
> 
> 
> If you can swallow it through all the bitterness..


surely a chilled pill would be less bitter though?


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## WarmBeer (22/11/10)

With the bi-polar arguments occurring in this and it's sister thread, I am looking forward to the next logical topic:

"I am ambivalent about No Chill"


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## jyo (22/11/10)

I blame Manticle. For most things.


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## schooey (22/11/10)

WarmBeer said:


> With the bi-polar arguments occurring in this and it's sister thread, I am looking forward to the next logical topic:
> 
> "I am ambivalent about No Chill"



I was tempted...

"I'm not sure whether I love or hate no chill and you're NOT helping!"


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## zebba (22/11/10)

Can I "half-assed chill"?


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## QldKev (22/11/10)

Batz said:


> No I don't Steve, in fact I don't find a great difference. The interesting part is I find bitterness a little more in chilled beers, flavour and aroma I find much the same with both, goes against the popular beliefs but I call it as I find it.
> 
> Batz



My immersion chiller is also colecting dust in the shed. The only change to my hop schedule is I add the flame out hops to the fermentor. This is a change I see to suit my taste requirements; like all brewers should do, adapt the recipie to suit your taste. I also do slow-chill to try and get under that critical 80degrees point as quick as I can.

QldKev


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## Weizguy (23/11/10)

Zebba said:


> surely a chilled pill would be less bitter though?


Yum, chilled Pils!

I am a no-chill lazy [email protected]


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