# Using An Urn For Brew In A Bag - Tutorial



## Bribie G

I was chatting with Cocko who said I'm making a rod for my own back because I keep posting the same information and should write a guide to brewing in a bag specifically for electric urn users. Good call, article follows (about ten minutes from now, just gotta upload some pics so hang in). Maybe mods might like to airlock it in the newbie AG Partial thread here if that might be of use to new or prospective AG brewers? I didn't do it as a proper article because I believe they don't support the inclusion of pictures?


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## Bribie G

*A Basic Guide to Brew in a Bag (BIAB) using an Urn​*

​
For a comprehensive guide to BIAB, see the thread airlocked in the All Grain forum. However here's a summary of BIAB in an urn so we know what we are going to cover in this current article. This article is in two sections, a general discussion followed by a 'how to'.

Between 30 and 35 litres of water (liquor) is heated to strike temperature which is around 2 to 3 degrees hotter than the desired mash temperature. 

The power is turned off. A bag large enough to completely fill the urn is fitted and secured around the top of the urn. 
The grain bill is quickly and thoroughly stirred in and the urn covered. 
The urn is lagged using sleeping bags or a doonah or camping mat and left for the desired mash period (some brewers prefer to add heat during the mash, this will be covered later). 
The lagging is removed, the bag is hoisted and drained, power turned back on and the wort brought to the boil. 
A hop sock is suspended in the wort and hop additions are made. 
Kettle finings may be added towards the end of the boil. 
The hop sock is raised, the urn is covered and allowed to boil just long enough to sterilise the headspace without getting a boilover, and power is switched off.
The wort / break is allowed to settle and the wort is run off either through a chiller or into a cube for no-chilling.


*General Discussion*​
40L electric urns are becoming increasingly popular, as they lend themselves to Brew in a Bag (BIAB). The popularity of BIAB derives largely from its being a 'one pot' method with no need to buy and operate three separate vessels with associated plumbing and in many cases March pumps etc. 

Many BIAB brewers have taken this concept one stage further by using an electric urn, thus doing away with the need to buy gas bottles and burners or the need to drill or modify a large stockpot or a keggle. Add a brewing bag and the 40L urn is virtually a 'turn-key' brewery ready to go out of the box.


*Disadvantages of an urn. *

Brews are limited to single-size 'standard' 23 to 25 litre batches. Not having done a poll on this, I nevertheless get the impression that brewers doing large double or even triple batches are in the minority and urns would not suit their style of brewing. On the other hand the ease of use of an urn for BIAB brewing make it quite feasable to do a side by side brew using two urns, or even do two end-to-end brews on one day with not much more effort than a large three vessel brew with its attendant clean up and sanitising chores.

Any disadvantages of doing BIAB in a 40 litre pot in general also apply to urns, for example a 25 litre brew of extremely strong beer such as a Russian Imperial Stout would not be a serious candidate for this style of brewing. However for most brewers who prefer their beer between 3.5 % and 6% ABV they should have few efficiency problems.

Urns, reportedly, take longer to heat to strike temperature than gas and longer to raise the wort to a rolling boil compared to gas. Having said that many 3 vessel brewers actually use an urn as a Hot Liquor Tun. Some brewers use a time switch to turn on a pre-filled urn so the strike liquor is ready at a prearranged time. 

*Getting an Urn*

There are two main brands of urn available in Australia, Birko and Crown. Costing between $250 and $320 depending on deals and suppliers. (August 2009). Crown urns are available from the AHB sponsor CraftBrewer (no affilliation) within that price range. I have a Birko that I bought from a catering equipment firm. Birko urns have an exposed element, Crown Urns have a concealed element in the base. There has been some criticism that Crown urns have a thermostat cut off which makes the boil sluggish. This can be worked around but I don't offer any advice on this, not being a qualified electrician. Birko urns give a good rolling boil.
Some brewers on the forum have had luck getting a cheap urn on Ebay.

*Getting a Bag*

Swiss Voile is the most popular material, it's a thin light polyester curtain material available from Spotlight, about $15 for enough material to make a bag. I get the impression that Birko urns are a bit shorter and wider than Crown urns so I won't offer exact measurements, but the best design is exactly like a can of baked beans with a circular bottom section. This will hang like a teardrop on hoisting. A pillowcase or sling design whilst possibly stronger and more durable in the long run has the disadvantage that when it is hoisted it looks like a pair of dogs family jewels and the two lobes are almost guaranteed to dribble down the outside of the urn. 
If you are a long way from a fabric shop and don't have a sewing machine or know a sewing person then mail order is the way to go. Gryphon Brewing sell premade BIAB bags (no affilliation except that I bought one recently and can recommend) and CraftBrewer have started to stock Swiss Voile material as well. 

*Hoisting the Bag*

A skyhook is welcome, I just use a single pulley which is a cheap awning pulley with a fairly thick cord to avoid it slipping off the wheel and jamming. 




On hoisting, the cord can be tied off and the bag left to drip at its own pace while the wort is raised to the boil. If no skyhook then raise manually and squeeze, then drain into a nappy bucket hanging off a doorknob. I have even hung mine off the freezer door of my dead fridge. I won't beat around the bush here .. hoisting and draining is the unpleasant aspect of BIAB, probably as much a PITA as having to scoop kilos of spent grain out of a mash tun and clean it and the braid, no free lunches. Unfortunately Bunnings etc don't seem to stock light double pulley tackle for some reason but some BIAB brewers may have ideas on a double pulley design.

*Urn care*




The Birko element can be scrubbed nice and clean using a green kitchen scourer. Surprisingly sugars and other compounds don't get 'burned on' to it and after a few brews it may take on a chalky appearance but that scrubs off easily. An urn descaler/cleaner is available from Catering suppliers but I haven't used it yet, it's more for urns that have been used in catering and left on for days on end with town water in them I guess. It is very important to take the tap apart when cleaning. The Birko tap comes apart safely and easily. Crown owners please edit here accordingly. Many owners easily replace the native tap with a ball lock tap. I'll be doing that, haven't got round to it. 

Familiarity can breed contempt and always be aware that you are dealing with electric equipment containing nearly 40L of boiling liquid that could easily put you in hospital or kill pets and small children so the same safety precautions should be taken as with all brewing operations.

*Step by step how to​*
Of course this section contains a lot of information that is common to all brewing, and a lot that is common to all BIAB brewing. I'm just presenting how I do things on my equipment using a Birko Urn.

Thread your cord through the skyhook if you have one. Nothing worse than forgetting and having to clamber over a full hot urn later on.

*Prepare the strike liquor*

It is essential that you have a good thermometer, an electronic probe kitchen style thermometer is ideal for mashing. I don't fiddle with the temperature knob on the urn, I just leave the Birko on 95 full time. I'm fortunate to have solar hot water and carry 5 litre jerry cans to fill urn to about 35 litres. This leaves plenty of leeway for grain bills up to 5.5k. 
While the urn is heating I add any water salts and weigh out the grain bill. I don't personally mill but this would be the ideal time to mill your grain. As a rule of thumb I allow three degrees hotter strike water. So if I'm aiming for a mash at 66 I will heat the strike liquor to 69 but allow it to just "come off" after that for a few minutes. Give the liquor a good stir so you aren't measuring the temperature of a convection plume.

*Fit the bag*

Switch off the power, lower the bag and clip it round the edges of the urn with clothes pegs. The Gryphon bags are elasticated. 

*Dough in*

Add the grain bill in a thin stream and stir constantly with a large spoon to avoid doughballs. Then give the mash a good up and down rousing with a metal paint stirrer or a good stir with whatever other mash paddle you have on hand. 




*Cover and lag*

If your bag has a drawstring, close it up tight, lid on and slip an old kids sized sleeping bag over the urn like a giant condom. Be careful of the urn tap which you can flick on accidentally. Then wrap the whole thing in a doonah and strap it with some cord. You should get about one degree per hour drop in temperature, which is more than acceptable as most saccharification will take place in the first half hour. Many BIABers have their urn permanently lagged with cut-up camping mat but still wrap in extra insulation while mashing.






Some BIABers do a half - time application of heat. With a Crown this should not be a problem, with a Birko you could raise the bag clear of the element and apply a short burst. In both cases you would need to open the urn and do a big stir up to distribute the heat. Personally I wouldn't bother but may do an experiment sometime. 

I normally do 90 min mashes, and have a cheap timer set to 90 mins.

*Hoist the bag *

Before hoisting, I usually give the mash another good pumping with the paint stirrer to loosen it up and flush out any goodies that may be hiding in the grain husks. If you can get an assistant to grasp the bag in two hands, lift it clear of the wort and keep it there while you tie off the pulley rope, you've won.
Otherwise you will need to hold and squeeze until the bag is light enough to put it in a nappy bucket or small baby bath and hang it off a door knob, tripod, whatever you can find. For tying off the rope, a wall mounted cleat is a brilliant one-hand solution.

*A tweak: sparge in a bucket*

At this stage you could just bring the wort to the boil and tip the grain. However there's still malty goodness in there and I regularly do a sparge in a nappy bucket with five or six litres of very hot liquor prepared in the kitchen. In the photo it's hanging off the freezer door of the dead fridge as mentioned previously.




Now we are going for a rolling boil, 




note the hopsock ready to lower and also note that this level of wort in a Birko boiled for 90 minutes on a roll should reduce to enough wort to fill a 20L cube (actually 23 litres) plus up to three extra litres which I put into sterilised jars and add to the fermenter with the cube. I haven't done an exact calibration except to say that when they call it a 40L urn that's what it is, 40L no more and no less.

*At the end of the boil*

Don't forget the Whirlfloc. When finished, remove hopsock and put the lid on the urn then move quickly to the wall socket and keep an eye on the urn, you will see some plumes of steam shooting out of the nostrils on the lid. Then switch off before the wort rises and foams out from under the lid. This should have nicely sanitised the headspace so you can safely leave it for about twenty minutes by which time the break and shyte will have settled right out. 

BIAB's work is done.

*Equipment check list.*




Depending on which methods you use, you may not need all the items lower down in the list. I have not gone into No-chill equipment, which is not part of BIAB although a popular method, except to say that whatever cooling method you use, replacing the urn tap with a ball lock tap will enable you to fit a silicone hose which is difficult to do with the 'native' urn taps.

Urn 
Extension Cord
Bag
Mash Paddle and spoons
Accurate 'stick' thermometer
Scales accurate to 1g
If using a skyhook: Awning rope, pulley
If passive lagging: Sleeping bag, doonah
Nappy bucket
Stockpot

This should get you brewing grain beers and set yourself free for less than $400 (excluding fermentation side gear), less if you shop around and no doubt you will have many of these items already if you are already doing kits or extract brewing.

Happy Brewing

BribieG August 2009


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## reviled

Nice work mate, well written :icon_cheers:


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## Pollux

Good write up....

Notes I shall add as a Crown user.

1. The tap can be unscrewed, it may feel tight out of the box, but once it gets a dose of boiling liquid run through it's quite easy to undo.
2. The Crown does have issues in terms of heating and also holding a significant boil. I have performed the modification whereby I bypassed the "boil dry" switch. This has allowed the crown to reach it's strike/mashout/boil temps alot faster.
3. I am in the group of people who have used a camping/yoga mat as permanent insulation (although I do remove it to wash the urn). My advice is to avoid the mats that look like one giant piece of foam, as these tend to melt to the sides of the urn. I suck at being able to describe the style of mat, I shall take some photos tomorrow.


Great write up there Michael, about time someone did an urn guide.


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## Carboy

Hi BribieG,

Awesome work :super: , your post will certainly help me when I move to AG in an urn in a few weeks. 

Cheers
Carboy :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD

Awesome!


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## pdilley

You go Michael! 

Love your work. Would feel no worries over handing that writeup to any new brewer looking for advice

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## thylacine

Thanks for the step by step w/pics. Canberra currently has 40l Birkos for $266. I'll be refering to your suggestions in the near future.

I notice that you didn't include (or I missed it...) your current procedure re 'mash-out'. eg. 78c (I've read some of your previous threads/comments re mash-out)
Have you replaced it this 'tutorial' with your description of 'sparge in a bucket'?

Thanks again. You are always a positive voice...

Cheers


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## Bribie G

I was hesitating about adding the 'mashout' because you can't really do a mashout and a sparge in the bucket in the same BIAB brew because you would end up swimming in extra wort. I thought for the time being I would just include the sparge in a bucket to keep the discussion simple. Really I still don't know which one would result in better efficiency but I'm tending to the sparge in a bucket. :icon_cheers:


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## brando

I also use the 40L Birko for BIAB brewing.

I've used a Kmart $10 camping mat and it melted onto the urn at contact points. No good.

I use the light duty silicon hose from Craftbrewer, and attach it straight onto the "native" tap. It's a bit of a bugger to get on first time, but softens up over time, and I would recommend it.

My "bag" is just a 2 meter diameter round piece of Swiss Voile that Craftwbrewer also sells (although not advertised on the website). I can't see the benefit in screwing around sewing together a proper bag. Just overlock the edges to prevent any fraying.

Soaking in Napisan works ok to clean the element, but not great. Perhaps PBW would be better - anyone comment on this?


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## altone

Good onya BribieG

Nice little tutorial.
I'm going to try an electric urn BIAB next weekend (although mines only 30 litres so might aim for
18-20l of final wort) 
As others posted, I've bypassed the boildry sensor to improve boil time - obviously this cannot be recommended.
Gives all the basic info for electric urn 1 pot BIAB so far as I can see (in conjunction with the main BIAB link obviously)

Nice job


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## Thirsty Boy

Thanks for that Michael - I will be pointing people to this thread


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## loikar

Please Wiki this!


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## RdeVjun

Wow, what a top job, BribieG! This is something that's been in the back of my mind for a while, albeit from the dreaded stockpot angle, but this covers everything brilliantly and just tears the fork out. Absolutely no hesitation on my behalf in recommending this as a well thought out, pictorial and practical guide. :super: 

+1 for the bucket sparge tweak, it is a must- do for me, else make a small beer with the spent grain, but that's another OT story.

I don't even have a single question. Oh wait, yeah I do, but this one's for the Mods- what's the hold up in Airlocking this? :angry:


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## Macca17

Fantastic writeup, haven't done an AG brew yet, still getting the bits together,but that answered 
all my questions I still had


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## Gulf

To clean the element (including concealed element plate), fill the urn with 50% vinegar solution until the element is covered. Turn on the urn and boil for five minutes. Leave to cool (preferably overnight) and then empty the urn. Any remaining scale can be removed easily by wiping. Rinse the urn with clean water, bringing to the boil if desired.


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## brando

Gulf said:


> To clean the element (including concealed element plate), fill the urn with 50% vinegar solution until the element is covered. Turn on the urn and boil for five minutes. Leave to cool (preferably overnight) and then empty the urn. Any remaining scale can be removed easily by wiping. Rinse the urn with clean water, bringing to the boil if desired.




Good one! I'll try that.


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## crundle

Well done Bribie! I was thinking of doing a tutorial but you beat me to it, and a great tutorial you have written too!

Concerning the camping mats, I have one around mine that comes off for cleaning, and have only found that it sticks to the body of the urn when it gets wort spilled between the mat and the body of the urn. The water evaporates leaving behind the sugar like a glue. If this happens, wet the outside of the urn to dissolve the sugar and the mat will come off with no bits left stuck to the urn. The camping mats really do help with faster heating and better maintaining of a boil, and add an extra layer of insulation while mashing.

Regarding the Crown urn modification to make it boil harder/heat up quicker, here is the link for those that wish to give it a go - Crown urn modification It is a simple mod, but it does remove the anti boil-dry protection the Crown offers, so that must be kept in mind when using the urn after the mod.

Once again a great tutorial Bribie, well done!

cheers,

Crundle


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## Bubba Q

Brilliant guide. The only things that differ in my brew day are I lift the bag and squeeze by hand, then sparge by placing the bag on a rack from a roasting tray over a bucket, and instead of using a doona for insulation I have a camping mat and flip over a collapsible bunnings cooler to cover the urn. Works great.


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## bowie in space

Well Done Bribie! :icon_cheers: Perfect timing for me as I have just priced a 40L Birko urn through Hotel Agencies in Fitzroy for $265, and i'll be ordering a bag from gryphon with free postage for $43. So for just over $300, i'll be AG'ing in no time. I love it when birthdays are just around the corner.

This tutorial is the icing on the cake too :beer: 
Cheers
Bowie


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## Cocko

Well written mate.

:icon_chickcheers:


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## glaab

Good job Bribie!

When you try to remove your tap to replace it be careful I think its tightened up with a rattle gun or something, it wont wanna budge if it's like mine was. I tried to remove mine and it began to warp the sheetmetal which is pretty thin. You gotta put a socket on the inside with a long bar and then get a big shifta/ open ender on the outside. Probably a 2 man job. Also the hole is 21mm 'ish so you'll need to open it up to 23mm for a bulkhead.

Cheers, Chris.


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## Phoney

Love your work BribieG 

Your guide answers all of the questions I had before my first BIAB job. Only thing I can point out is that squeezing a bag full of hot grain cannot and should not be done with bare hands. So heatproof and waterproof gloves are essential. This is pretty obvious, but a newbie could be caught out redhanded (excuse the pun  ) come brew day.


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## Katherine

phoneyhuh said:


> Love your work BribieG
> 
> Your guide answers all of the questions I had before my first BIAB job. Only thing I can point out is that squeezing a bag full of hot grain cannot and should not be done with bare hands. So heatproof and waterproof gloves are essential. This is pretty obvious, but a newbie could be caught out redhanded (excuse the pun  ) come brew day.



I have a pulley system and twirl my bag but still give it a good squeeze with bare hands.


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## Wonderwoman

Katie said:


> I have a pulley system and twirl my bag but still give it a good squeeze with bare hands.




you're a tough nut then :lol: personally, I've used 2 large saucepan lids


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## Katherine

wonderwoman said:


> you're a tough nut then :lol: personally, I've used 2 large saucepan lids




Thats a great idea.... I would wear gloves but they dont make them in my hand size!


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## leiothrix

glaab said:


> Good job Bribie!
> 
> When you try to remove your tap to replace it be careful I think its tightened up with a rattle gun or something, it wont wanna budge if it's like mine was. I tried to remove mine and it began to warp the sheetmetal which is pretty thin. You gotta put a socket on the inside with a long bar and then get a big shifta/ open ender on the outside. Probably a 2 man job. Also the hole is 21mm 'ish so you'll need to open it up to 23mm for a bulkhead.
> 
> Cheers, Chris.



(Assuming you're talking about a Crown Urn) - To remove my tap i used a socket (don't remember size, prob 1"), a 2 or 3" extension & 1/2" ratchet. Hold the tap on the outside to stop the metal bending. It was on tight, but it came off no worries.

The hole is 21mm-ish, but the beer-belly bulkhead (which on the site says requires a 23mm hole) fit in perfectly. 

Of course there may be issues of tolerance, strength, tools available, etc but that was my experience.

Rob.


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## bullsneck

Wow, great tutorial.

AG brewing is all too tempting now.

Not sure I can resist the darkside now.


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## Darren

Hey BIAB'ers,
Not sure if I posted this before but I brewed in an urn for two years (about 15 years ago). I used a piece of stainless mesh moulded around the element and a copper pick-up tube to drain the wort. IIRC it cost about ten bucks and did not require the use of a sowing machine or a pulley/hoist to drain. 

Please can someone tell me the real long-term advantage of using BIAB?

cheers

Darren


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## Pollux

Darren,

How did you manage to separate the grains from the wort before the boil??


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## Darren

Into an old fermenter (aka known as a lauter grant).

I used a kettle from the kitchen to sparge, dumped the grain, then put the particle-free sweet wort into the urn for boil.

Primitive....yes, but it was reliable, durable and effective (and it didn't require use of curtain material or a sowing machine).

cheers


Darren


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## Murcluf

Darren said:


> Please can someone tell me the real long-term advantage of using BIAB?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren


I don't think there is any long term advantage to BIAB..... I technically MAIB (Masked in a bag) when I first went to AG for about 5 brew as i peiced together my set up. Don't get me wrong I think it is a brilliant way to get a taste AGing with minimal expence but I found it limited very quickly. Been now brewing with a primative AG setup now for over 18 months, first thing I noticed is how much more you can do doing it that way rather then BIAB. But this just my own opion...


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## haysie

Darren said:


> Please can someone tell me the real long-term advantage of using BIAB?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I suspect none, its just another method.
Saves time and water and energy and hops and can substitute for a coles bag picking up your dog shit in the local park whilst walking. I would look a bit silly carrying my 50ltr mashtun around the park behind the dog.


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## Cocko

Darren said:


> Please can someone tell me the real long-term advantage of using BIAB?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I am not sure what you mean by long term - Maybe you should ask BribieG directly and then compare a trophy count... B) 

Seriously Darren, what are you asking here? The long term is AG beers! GOOD AG beers.. award winning now in cases.

BIAB - is a cheap, simple way for brewers to get in and produce some AG beer - either short term or long term...

What are the real long term advantages of using 3V instead?

<_<


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## RdeVjun

The prospect of getting right into AG with minimal up- front expense, straightforward equipment and simple processes is so attractive to many, I know it certainly was for me and I'm not alone. Now this *Air- Locked* tutorial takes the beginner through it step by step, wrinkles (or rather dog's bollocks :lol: ) and all.
So, once again, me tips me lid- just brilliant work!

Speaking of Geordies, my spousie who, bless her, is one of them too, bought me a snappy lined woolen coat from the local Op Shop specifically for slipping over the pot while mashing. It does look rather smart while the mash is on, like a distinguished gent has sat on the bench, but unfortunately lost his extremities. (Legless perhaps!) How's about that then? Actually, I think she was actually telling me to stop using my jerseys for mash insulation... I have to use two in winter time. Tip there for everyone!


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## Paul H

Is it true that BIAB'ing will make you go blind?

Cheers

Paul


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## Bribie G

Darren said:


> Into an old fermenter (aka known as a lauter grant).
> 
> I used a kettle from the kitchen to sparge, dumped the grain, then put the particle-free sweet wort into the urn for boil.
> 
> Primitive....yes, but it was reliable, durable and effective (and it didn't require use of curtain material or a sowing machine).
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> Darren



Darren I used the same method as you many years ago in the UK using a Bruheat boiler (a plastic urn holding about 25L, still available and popular), did the mash in the Bruheat, sparged it out into a spare fermenter then put the runnings back into the Bruheat for the boil. It was a two vessel system, basically, and like you I did some brilliant brews. 

However with a 40L urn such as we have nowadays it can all be done in one vessel. I see where you are coming from but feel that the modern BIAB method has somewhat gone over your head. Kindly re-read the tutorial and if you have difficulties with any of the concepts please PM me.

Best regards



Edit: in fact anyone with a 30L Crown or Birko urn could probably do exactly that with a spare fermenter and do a two vessel brew with sparging and make good beer, but that's not the method described in this thread.


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## Thirsty Boy

Actually, it so happens that I have written a basic how to for BIAB in a 30L Crown, Birko or other urn. I was prompted by a thread asking about the suitability for brewing of some very very cheap 30L urns.

You could use them in the way Darren describes - but then you would have to transfer the wort a couple of times and also clean out the mashtun before using it as a kettle. That would of course work perfectly well, but here is an alternative for those of us who aren't afraid of a bit of sewing.

I still dislike the notion of mucking about with BIAB - I think it is at its best, displays all of its strengths and overcomes more of its weaknesses - when it is in its pure and basic 1 pot, full volume, no sparging original form.

BUT - the urns in question are really really cheap. ($65-75 - check e-bay) Cheap enough to make me think about how to use them and lose as little of the ease of use of BIAB as possible.

So I am attaching a How To document on Small Urn - 2 vessel modified BIAB - it is away to get full size (well 20L) finished volume batches out of one of these 30L urns - but avoid needing to boil extra water on the stove or in the kettle - and also avoid having to brew with concentrated wort.

In addition to your urn - you will need a 20L bucket (or preferably a 20L eski.. but a bucket will do) - I have brewed this way and came up with the method earlier on in the BIAB debate as a way to allow BIAB with more normal L:G ratios. Basically its a variation of the Dunk Sparge technique.

Anyway - here is the attachment

View attachment Smaller_Urn_2V_BIAB.doc


As I said, I have brewed almost exactly this way - it works - but it absolutely could be changed, tweaked and massaged in a variety of ways too

Hope you find it useful.

Thirsty


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## Pollux

TB: That's an interesting read, I'm tempted to try it out with my 40L urn as I have been wanting to incorporate a dunk sparge into my routine but as I brew in the garage and my apartment is two stories up I only have the urn as a heat source.

My other option is the take the BribieG dunk sparge route and use my 15L pot (previously used for extract brewing) to heat the sparge water, this would require another heat source.

Question is, could one of these little butane burners work for this? It would only have to heat roughly 7 litres to roughly 78deg, but I'm concerned regarding the gas usage.


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## Thirsty Boy

They're OK - I used to use one as my kettle burner for a 16L pot. The gas is cheap as ... buy it from an asian grocer rather than a camping store and its half as much. They aren't so good in the wind though - so I dont know how it'd go up on the second story.

If you are willing to use an extra pot and heat source ... then all bets are off, you can do it any way you want to. It will all pretty much work. The main point of my How To - was to keep things as close to native BIAB as possible. Only one extra, non metal vessel required, the urn still provides all the heating.

This is one of the disadvantages of brewing in an urn - their advantage is the "one bit of gear, all in one" thing - but that is of course, by its nature an inflexible arrangement. For me - a normal pot and an immersion element is the ultimate compromise between simplicity and flexibility

The more gear you add... the more options you have. Let your imagination run free BIABers. But also remember, you will reach a point where your complexity levels in equipment and effort - start to equate to that of a 3V system... and if price, time, effort and complexity even out, then I think you might be better off going with a nice tried and true 3V design that has had thousands of brewers work out the design kinks over many years... than invest too much into what would be an essentially experimental BIAB rig. Unless experimentation and adventure is your thing that is in which case more power to ya and it'll be cool to see just how far people can push the whole concept.


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## Bribie G

TB, I used a 24L Bruheat Boiler in the UK for AG and like you say with an extra cheap vessel or two you can turn out good brews with far less capital expenditure than a 3V system.

http://www.thebrewmart.com/bruheat-mashing...er-i602071.html

In the UK Bruheat supply bags, not for BIAB as such but for easy grain removal so you can whack the wort back in immediately and use it as a boiler. They even do wort recirculation rotating sparge arm systems etc. As we know, 40L gives the option of full water volume dead simple brewing but when you get down to 30L all bets are off  

Interesting reading TB.


----------



## under

Im back boys. 8 months break. Nearly finished all my brews I had made (275+ longies ), with a lilttle helping hand from the relos. 

Really thinking about moving over to AG after reading this. Only one thing. Im still bottling, no room for kegs. This ok?

And is the crown as good as the birko with the mod?


----------



## Bribie G

Welcome back. I BIABed for 9 months and bottled, before going to kegs at the end of July. What you store it in doesn't matter, once you have hoisted the bag and started the boil it's the same as any other AG method.

Get a Birko, you know you really want one B) B)


----------



## under

Im not liking the idea of the exposed element in the birko, and im not liking the idea of the slow/non boil in the crown without the mod.


----------



## Phoney

under said:


> Im not liking the idea of the exposed element in the birko



Well you have two simple options:

1) Heat up your water to strike temperature, turn the urn off, then fit the bag, dump your grain in, close the lid and insulate.
or
2) Buy a cheap 10" stainless steel colander that fits over your element and protects your bag like this:









I havent done enough BIAB's to really figure out which method is the preferred yet, I think option 2 might suit me better. From what ive learnt so far; 

1) pro's: The bag never gets a chance to touch a hot spot, temperature stays consistent throughout the urn. 
cons: If insulation is inadequate, temperature can drop below your required mash temperature. Only by a degree or three, but not quite perfect. Also, you have to raise the bag slightly to turn the urn back on for mashout.

2) pro's: Thermostat can be set to ~66C to ensure mash temperature doesnt drop below par. You dont need to touch the bag for mashout.
cons: heat "pocket" can be formed under the grain bag making temperature uneven in the urn - mixing the grains (in an up-and-down fashion) with your mash paddle at regular intervals seems to avoid this though.

Either way it's not really a problem - just something to be aware of.


----------



## RobB

phoneyhuh said:


> Well you have two simple options:
> 
> 1) Heat up your water to strike temperature, turn the urn off, then fit the bag, dump your grain in, close the lid and insulate.
> or
> 2) Buy a cheap 10" stainless steel colander that fits over your element and protects your bag like this:



I use a colander in my Birko. Actually, it's a cheap stainless mixing bowl which I drilled full of holes, but it's the same theory. I use it because I like to include a mash-out which seems to give me significantly better efficiency. I was also a bit paranoid about snagging the bottom of my bag on the element, so it gives me extra piece of mind.

I have tried step mash using just the urn, but I found that the bag, grain and colander were trapping a layer of hot water which no amount of stirring would fix. My temps were all over the place, so now I step up using additions from the kitchen kettle.

I love the BIAB/urn combo. Throw in a timer switch and it's an easy way to fit a brew into an otherwise full day.


----------



## MarkBastard

Nice thread Bribie.

I am undecided as to whether I should get a Crown or a Birko. Having a concealed element is certainly a plus from a cleaning and general use perspective, but what I'd love to see is a genuine comparison between the performance of a Birko and a Crown that's had the boil-dry removed.

ie how long does each take to get 30L of water to boiling temp?


----------



## Phoney

Mark^Bastard said:


> ie how long does each take to get 30L of water to boiling temp?


From what temperature? Ive got a birko and the first time I filled it up with cold tap water and switched it on full; 45 mins later it still wasnt quite boiling. Now I fill it up with 'hot' water from the laundry sink tap and it only takes 10 - 15 mins to get it from ~40C to 68C and only another 5 - 10 mins to go from mashout (78C) to a good rolling boil.


----------



## MarkBastard

As long as they both start at the same temperature I'm not fussed.

I just wanna see what the difference is. If the Birko is only 5% better then I'd go the Crown with the insulation on the outside any day, know what I mean?

But if the Crown is literally incapable of some things as it would appear reading some opinions, I'd go for the Birko.


----------



## Bribie G

I invariably use hot water out of the solar and often, this time of year, it is just about on strike temperature anyway. My old kid's sleeping bag I've had for 10 years and a chinese feather doonah keep the mash lagged efficiently enough for a 2 degree drop over 90 minutes so I have no need to apply heat, therefore the exposed element doesn't worry me.


----------



## MarkBastard

Fair enough, what about cleaning though?

How long do you have to wait after hitting strike temp to put the bag in? I imagine the element remains hot for a little while.


----------



## bowie in space

Mark 

check my post "cleaning my urn"

sorry don't know how to attach link

Bowie


----------



## bullsneck

I see that many people have replaced the tap on the Crown Urn with a ball valve.

Would someone be able to post a link to what I'd be after, please?

Just picked up my Crown tonight, so shiny!

Can't wait to brew!


----------



## bullsneck

bullsneck said:


> I see that many people have replaced the tap on the Crown Urn with a ball valve.
> 
> Would someone be able to post a link to what I'd be after, please?
> 
> Just picked up my Crown tonight, so shiny!
> 
> Can't wait to brew!



Bump


----------



## Cocko

Hey Bullsneck,

Not that I have done it myself but I would be looking at something like this linkage

I have used this and similar for 2 weldless fitting and worx a no dramas...

Others will have better info but thats my 2c!


----------



## leiothrix

I got my stuff from beerbelly

I've got a stainless pickup tube connected to a bulkhead fitting, then three piece ball valve and cam lock disconnects for the hose.

No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

Rob.


----------



## Bribie G

Just an update, on my Birko after about 50 brews the tap has failed, because I have religiously taken it apart, cleaned and reassembled it, and I have cross threaded and destroyed the thread on the plastic upper part of the tap where it screws into the lower cast metal tap body. Nothing wrong with the tap body itself but the other bit is going to cost me $45 from a Birko Service Agent. Bit rude - that should cover the cost of a ball lock 'straight through' tap so that's what I'll be getting. However until now I've had no problems with the Birko tap.

Anyone dismantling the tap on a regular basis I would recommend getting a little tube of tap lubricant (from sponsors - it's great for servicing your fonts and other taps as well) and use a bit of that on the threads so you never need to force anything.


----------



## Phoney

Excellent BribieG, I was just looking at my tap yesterday wondering how long it would last, ill add thread lube to my shopping list.

Ive also been thinking recently (and maybe this deserves a thread on it's own?) of the sorts of modifications I could add to the Birko urn. 

Firstly id love to have a mounted digital thermometer with a temperature probe that protrudes down through the lid into the centre of the urn so that I can keep an eye on the mash temperature without having to undo the doonah, take the lid off and stick my thermometer in there - which no doubt loses heat each time I need to do this. This shouldnt be too difficult to acheive it's just a matter of finding the right thermometer.

Secondly what id really love is an automated mash paddle fitted to the top of the lid that stirs the grains during the entire mash to further improve efficiency. Sort of like what Zwickel has done here, but with the paddles perhaps made out of rubber so as not to get the bag into a tangled & torn up mess.

Thoughts?


----------



## MarkBastard

It'd be nice if you could build a false bottom like in the pictures above but have some form of pump circulating the hot water from under the false bottom all around the urn etc.


----------



## brando

The photo shows bag lifted off the element of Birko urn after mash has been completed. Here I'm raising the temp from 65 to 80 degrees, to then lower the bag again for mashout then sparge. Usually takes about 10-15 mins to reach 80 degrees (which then drops back to about 77 degrees when bag lowered).

As can be seen, the bag is not fully out of the wort, and I'm wondering if I could be risking getting astringency from the contact at high temp. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## Darren

Brando,

I suspect you would be lowering you efficiency by lowering your BIAB into what would otherwise be higher gravity wort. BIABers need to consider how to "sparge" the "haggas". Perhaps a simple pour of boiled kettle water over the suspended bag would do?

Being positive  I maintain that there are more effective and easier ways to do this.

cheers

Darren


----------



## fergi

BribieG said:


> I invariably use hot water out of the solar and often, this time of year, it is just about on strike temperature anyway. My old kid's sleeping bag I've had for 10 years and a chinese feather doonah keep the mash lagged efficiently enough for a 2 degree drop over 90 minutes so I have no need to apply heat, therefore the exposed element doesn't worry me.




bribie, do you have any concerns running hot water from a hot water supply considering whats probably at the bottom of your tank, eg sludge etc. just curious , might try that pre heat myself. 

fergi


----------



## brando

Darren said:


> Brando,
> 
> I suspect you would be lowering you efficiency by lowering your BIAB into what would otherwise be higher gravity wort. BIABers need to consider how to "sparge" the "haggas". Perhaps a simple pour of boiled kettle water over the suspended bag would do?
> 
> Being positive  I maintain that there are more effective and easier ways to do this.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren, I'm ok with the efficiency, the concern is more about whether I might be extracting unwanted tannins this way.


----------



## QldKev

brando said:


> Darren, I'm ok with the efficiency, the concern is more about whether I might be extracting unwanted tannins this way.




If you are going to 80, and killing the heat for a sparge, all is ok.

QldKev


----------



## manticle

brando said:


> The photo shows bag lifted off the element of Birko urn after mash has been completed. Here I'm raising the temp from 65 to 80 degrees, to then lower the bag again for mashout then sparge. Usually takes about 10-15 mins to reach 80 degrees (which then drops back to about 77 degrees when bag lowered).
> 
> As can be seen, the bag is not fully out of the wort, and I'm wondering if I could be risking getting astringency from the contact at high temp.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I'm a bit confused as to your concerns.

Please clarify if I've misunderstood. 

You sacch rest at 65 then remove the bag until you heat to 80 then dunk the bag back in. However part of the bag remains in the liquid during the heating and you're worried that that heat will make the grains release tannins? The dropping back of the bag lowers the temp to a range at which you're not concerned?

Have I got it right?

To my mind (and someone else may have a much better idea) I wouldn't worry too much. I use a tun for my sacch rests but my mashout temps are up around 90+ degrees and I have never been able to pick up any astringency.

The main question though is; have YOU noticed any?

If not then I wouldn't concern myself too much.


----------



## under

I didnt think a mash out was required for BIAB, neither a sparge.


----------



## manticle

According to many, mashout isn't required for homebrewing at all, whether BIAB or 3V.


----------



## under

The way I was looking to do it was-

- Use approx 2L less water in the mash
- No mashout. Just pull the bag out.
- Turn on burner and bring to a boil.
- Let grain bag drain over a pail. 
- Heat up 2L of water to mashout temp
- When bag stops to a slow drip, pour the hot water all over the of the bag. Let drain.
- Add to boil.


----------



## Darren

brando said:


> Darren, I'm ok with the efficiency, the concern is more about whether I might be extracting unwanted tannins this way.




I would not worry about tannins unless you are "rinsing" too much.. 
Sitting "sugarless" grains in hot water would extract tannins but pouring hot water over a suspended BIAB would be very unlikely to extract excessive tannnins to cause problems

For your further information, decoctions (in a tun) requires of boiling of the grains. This process would extract heaps tannins if it is a problem. Additionally, tannins believe it or not also help with clarity of beer.


cheers

darren


----------



## manticle

Agree with the above. My experience is limited but I recently did my first decoction and despite finishing at 1008ish the beer is quite sweet. Definitely no tannins.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

re: the mashout in BIAB

Mashouts in "traditional" brewing are about fixing the fermentability profile, they probably aren't _needed_ in most homebrew situations.

BIAB is a little different though!

In a more traditional homebrew set-up with either a batch or a fly sparge, temperature is added during the sparge to the grain bed, because the sparge water is quite a bit hotter than the mash temperature. This increase in temperature not only helps with reducing the viscosity of the wort, it helps with the process of rinsing the sugars out of the grain.

This doesn't happen in BIAB if you don't raise the temp... you are effectively lautering 10 or so degrees C below the temperature that all the other methods use... this reduces your efficiency. Raising the temp in a BIAB mash is less about "mashing out" than rising to "Sparge" temperature.

The other thing that people rarely consider, is that starch is not perfectly gelatinised at normal mash temperatures, a portion of it remains ungelatinised and therefore unconverted... raising the temperature of the grainbed during the mashout helps to gelatinise this remaining starch, where it can be dextrinised by the Alpha Amylase that survives for quite a while even at M/O temps and even partial saccharified. Enzymes might well be dying off at M/O temps, but the ones that are left are working at great speed because of the raised temperatures.

So in BIAB, gaining the maximum conversion efficiency from your mash is one of the ways that it "makes up" for the lack of a sparge step. With a fine crush, the high L:G ratio and a ramp to a mashout - the conversion efficiency will be pushing 100% in BIAB.

The other reason (apart from straight efficiency) that this might be important in BIAB - is because of BIABs cloudy wort. In a mash/lauter tun, recirculation and filtration through the grain bed allows much of any unconverted starch (present as small particles) to be trapped during the lautering process. In BIAB... a lot more stuff just falls through the cloth. If there is unconverted starch.. then there is a decent chance it will make it into your kettle, and a corresponding chance it might make it into you beer, where it could cause haze and stability problems. Raising to a M/O temp converts the starch and avoids this potential issue.

I personally don't think the way Brando does his mashout is the best way to do it... the temp change from the perspective of the majority of the grist is too sudden. I think that the bag should be left in place and the mash stirred while the requisite heat is added. Both the stirring and the ramp itself making the conversion process more effective. Dumping the grain bag and its load of (potentially) unconverted starch back into a pot of 80C water asks the process to happen in a bloody great hurry - starch takes a little time to be accessed, heated and gelatinised, the enzymes take a little time to convert it... if you ramp slowly, all the gelatinisation and conversion that is able to happen at the lower temperatures on the "way up" to M/O temp, has happened already, and its just mopping up that happens at the peak temp.

I've always advocated a M/O in BIAB - performed by adding heat and constantly stirring till you reach the rest temp, then just pull the bag out. It needs a shield over you element if you have an exposed electric element in either an urn or other sort of pot, and it needs a little effort. But for the above reasons, I believe that it is the "better" way to do it.

Sorry for (yet another) long post. I would say things more briefly if I knew how to explain them more simply.

Thirsty

PS - a sparge of any description is NOT needed in BIAB. You can do one if you like, but you should be getting perfectly good efficiency without one ... if you do a mashout anyway.


----------



## RdeVjun

A really informative post yet again, Thirsty! I had wondered about lifting, draining and then adding near- boiling water for sparge + mashout and what effect that might have on enzymes. It sounds like it is better to gradually raise the temperature of the mash rather than dumping a heap of heat in there with at least some portions of it being overheated and probably reducing or destroying their activity. I might get that round cake cooling rack out again and slip it under the bag so I can just apply some heat.

Many thanks indeed for clearing all that up! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity.


----------



## Bribie G

TB
That's the best post I've read on the subject for ages - why didn't you tell me all that a year ago bastard




 

I'll be brewing this afternoon if grains turn up and I'll try the temperature raise. Here's a piccie of a beer that has been 2 months in the bottle. It was gelatined and polyclared, tastes great but I reckon that just _has_ to be a starch haze, :huh: plus I used a fair amount of rice, and mashed fairly low as I was looking for a drier beer. 





And I totally agree with Darren for once believe it or not,  about the tannins and the fact that the Germans and other decoction mashers have been boiling the crap out of grains for centuries, and produce fine beers that way.


----------



## thanme

Does any one have any success stories with BIAB in a 30L urn?? I want to move to BIAB, and have a 30L urn and want to give it a go before forking out for something bigger and better.
I read Thirsty Boys guide and it seems pretty straight forward.


----------



## Bribie G

If I had a 30 L urn I would personally adapt a method I used in the UK with a 'bruheat' electric boiler and do a 'two vessel' system. Basically you do a BIAB mash in the urn but with a 'thicker' mash. Hoist the bag and drain off the first runnings into a spare fermenter or even just a nappy bucket. Then heat some water to sparge temperature in the urn and dunk the bag to do a batch sparge. Hoist the bag, drain, squeeze, remove the bag, pour the first runnings back into the urn and away you go. The trick would be to try for around 28 litres and boil carefully at first. 

I don't know if anyone is having luck with this method, maybe RdeVuyn would have some comments as he's a small batch guy.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Rde Vjun is your man here - he is brewing full sized batches in small vessels.

So if you look at the guide I wrote (I know that will work) - Have read of Nick JDs post (here) about doing smaller batches in smaller vessels - And read of a few of Rde Vjun's posts (search em out, I know he posted a good description of his method once upon a time)

You will have seen a few variations of what to do with a smaller pot and have a few ideas about how to use yours.

Me personally - I would get some experience doing very simple, smaller AG batches via the "stock" no sparging no mucking about BIAB method, then have a go at a bigger batch as per my post - then a full size batch as per Rde Vjun's method.

Then, if you are bitten by the bug.. you can consider whether its worth your while investing in a bigger vessel (remember Urns are not the only choice... not even _necessarily_ the best choice) to make your life simpler.

Oh and if you haven't already - make sure you have a bit of a read of at least the first few pages of the main "Guide to Brewing in a Bag" thread. Its a monster.. but if you wade through it, it will answer all your questions.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

TB is right about the urn not being the only or best choice. I chose to go 40L urn for ease of use and basically getting a 'turn key' brewery in a box - however I was talking to PistolPatch, one of the fathers of BIAB, at a case swap a couple of weeks ago and we both agreed "wouldn't it be great if they made a 50L urn" Amen.

BIAB itself has few restrictions - urn size is a vessel restriction, not a BIAB restriction, but it can be worked around.


----------



## thanme

Thanks 

Sounds like I've got a bit of research to do! A smaller batch might be the go to start with. I'm more or less interested to get a feel for it, and see how I go with the process and how the beers go vs. my extract beers. I think I've got a good idea of the what and why of the whole thing..Just need to see if I can put it into practice! It'll also be interesting to see if I can live with having a half full fermenter 

I met PistolPatch a few weeks ago, and he's been a fountain of advice, but moreso with larger batches, and he actually mentioned talking to you (Bribie) with respect to doing it in an urn  And then I found this post. Good coincidence! 

Is there any hard and fast rule about mash water vs. grain amount??


----------



## Phoney

Thirsty Boy said:


> PS - a sparge of any description is NOT needed in BIAB. You can do one if you like, but you should be getting perfectly good efficiency without one ... if you do a mashout anyway.



I never used to do a sparge with my BIAB, never had an issue with efficiency, but the last two batches I did just out interest. Put 2 litres less water into the mash, then poured 2 litres out of my kitchen kettle over the grains that was sitting in an empty bucket. I was suprised how much sweet wort was extracted came out of the bag when I squeezed it the second time!

Again, it could have been a complete waste of time and acheived nothing for my efficiency, but it does get a fair whack of trapped sugars out of the spent grain. 




NME said:


> Is there any hard and fast rule about mash water vs. grain amount??



YES!

There's a spreadsheet that PistolPatch gave me that gives me the exact quantity of water to use. If you use a urn I cant recommend it highly enough!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Oh there is no doubt that sparging will improve your efficiency - it absolutely will (up to a point) - its just that as you said, you don't _need_ it to get decent efficiency.

If you want _more_ efficiency - and you are willing to trade time and effort to get it... then sparge away. If you want to, I suggest a dunk sparge with 20-25% of your starting water as the most likely to do the job effectively but not require "big" pots to heat the water in.


----------



## under

phoneyhuh said:


> I never used to do a sparge with my BIAB, never had an issue with efficiency, but the last two batches I did just out interest. Put 2 litres less water into the mash, then poured 2 litres out of my kitchen kettle over the grains that was sitting in an empty bucket. I was suprised how much sweet wort was extracted came out of the bag when I squeezed it the second time!
> 
> Again, it could have been a complete waste of time and acheived nothing for my efficiency, but it does get a fair whack of trapped sugars out of the spent grain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES!
> 
> There's a spreadsheet that PistolPatch gave me that gives me the exact quantity of water to use. If you use a urn I cant recommend it highly enough!



I have a 50L converted keg. And im also baffled on how much water to use per recipe.


----------



## Phoney

under said:


> I have a 50L converted keg. And im also baffled on how much water to use per recipe.



Here you go. You change the figures in red based on your recipe and your equipment... The figures in there at the moment are set to my 40L urn and Dr Smurto's Landlord ale.

View attachment Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls


----------



## under

phoneyhuh said:


> Here you go. You change the figures in red based on your recipe and your equipment... The figures in there at the moment are set to my 40L urn and Dr Smurto's Landlord ale.
> 
> View attachment 33367



Thanks mate. Is this from the original BIAB topic Here

Im assuming this is for straight sided kettles i.e urn. Not a keg??


----------



## geoff_tewierik

BribieG said:


> "wouldn't it be great if they made a 50L urn"



Got a 45L one that I don't use at the moment. Need a sparky to wire me up a 15 amp socket, as the urn runs a 3K+watt element on a 15 amp plug.


----------



## RdeVjun

BribieG said:


> I don't know if anyone is having luck with this method, maybe RdeVuyn would have some comments as he's a small batch guy.


Dunno if that's a compliment or not??!! :lol: But Thirsty, I'm seriously blushing and there's no need for that!! Buggered if I can find the post either... I guess its about time to pop a link in the sig block. When I find it... maybe this one?

Anyway, NickJD's the guy for small stock BIAB batches although today he's upping the ante with a high- gravity boil. I've basically been doing what he's shown us this evening, and as I've been doing it for a while now, can safely say the smaller vessel need not be an impediment to filling a fermenter. 3/4 fill the vessel with water, mash whatever the grain bill is (if there's not enough room then reduce water volume), lift & drain, dunk sparge+mashout with enough to fill the vessel. Redunk with a few more litres aiming for a similar mashout temp, add this to top up the vessel during the boil. Should get high- 70s efficiency, if not better. Dilute at pitching, no matter how you chill, although I've heard that dilution after fermentation might be worth a whirl too, some might consider that sacrilege though.  
Additional Water Volume = Actual SG / Target SG * Actual Volume - Actual Volume 
(A fairly rough calc, Nb. SG 1.045 expressed as 45, 1.072 as 72 etc.)

Again, I'd have to second what Thirsty and others say, that the sort of farting about I go through for this process is not for novice BIABers, please do the no- sparge version until familiar with the equipment. After that, everything should become fairly obvious and things like sparging and dilution should be a simple enough process.

Edit: Spleeing.


----------



## thanme

I'll add that to my reading list 
It's good to know what I can possibly pull of with my current equipment. I think for my first go, I'm going to go for a smaller batch size, just to make life a bit easier. No doubt I'll report back when I'm done, and have another plethora of questions on how to move forward


----------



## gone brewing

NME said:


> Does any one have any success stories with BIAB in a 30L urn?? I want to move to BIAB, and have a 30L urn and want to give it a go before forking out for something bigger and better.
> I read Thirsty Boys guide and it seems pretty straight forward.



I think your 30L urn is fine for making single batches around 20-22L. I have done 4 all grain batches by the BIAB method with my 30L urn and you are right, it is quite a straightforward process.

As a rough guide, you could think about using around 19L of water with 4.5kg of grain (4:1 ratio) for the mash. Too much more than this and you might spill some wort when you lift the bag or mix the mash. I then do a batch sparge in a 19L stockpot using about 8L of water. That gets me about 23L of wort at the start of the boil. I could do another sparge but I don't see the need as the mash efficiency is already good enough.

Towards the end of the boil, I add some boiling water to have about 23L in the urn at the end of boil. I lose some of this to trub and end up with about 20L in the no-chill cube. I can then add a bit more water in the fermenter if I need to adjust the SG/volume.

Not saying that all this is the best way to do it but it works for me and might be a starting point for you if you aren't sure where to begin.

I should add that for my first couple of batches I didn't have the bag sewn. It was just a huge sheet of voile shoved in the urn, so don't let that stop you.


----------



## under

RdeVjun said:


> A really informative post yet again, Thirsty! I had wondered about lifting, draining and then adding near- boiling water for sparge + mashout and what effect that might have on enzymes. It sounds like it is better to gradually raise the temperature of the mash rather than dumping a heap of heat in there with at least some portions of it being overheated and probably reducing or destroying their activity. I might get that round cake cooling rack out again and slip it under the bag so I can just apply some heat.
> 
> Many thanks indeed for clearing all that up! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Edit: Clarity.



Actually sounds like a good idea. Im thinking -

- Upon completion of mash, raise bag, until out of wort.
- Place a large cake cooling rack inside vessle on the bottom. Lower bag into wort.
- Turn on heat, raise to mashout temp, pull out bag, drain, squeeze etc.

This way im getting a quick sparge before adding heat, and a sparge after mashout.

Sound ok??


----------



## Phoney

Why not put the cake cooling rack inside the vessel on the bottom before fitting the bag to begin with? ie: before the mash. That way you only need to lift the bag out once.... As TB mentioned, you dont even really need a sparge, let alone two.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

A cake rack into your BIAB kettle.. well I never  

sorry guys - its another one of those coming full circle things. Cake racks in BIAB vessels were one of the things that were thought to be "probably necessary" when the method was first being developed.

If you have either a hidden element urn (ie the Crown Urns) or a normal pot on a gas burner, then you don't need a cake rack - just stir whenever you have the heat on, thats is enough. If you have an exposed element urn or a fixed element in a pot... then you "might" get away with it not being sheilded - but its probably a bit risky. So... an upside down collander seems to be the weapon of choice for urn brewers. I'm sure something similar can be dreamed up for any given situation.


----------



## under

I made something up today thats pretty bloody good. Ill post my pics of my completed setup (finished today) tomorrow.


----------



## bullsneck

Hey all

I was after the excel spreadsheet which helped you ascertain boil volumes and starting volumes for BIABing.

I did have it, but computer troubles have rendered it missing. I tried the search function to no avail.

Thanks!!

Edit - Found it!


----------



## Cocko

bullsneck said:


> Hey all
> 
> I was after the excel spreadsheet which helped you ascertain boil volumes and starting volumes for BIABing.
> 
> I did have it, but computer troubles have rendered it missing. I tried the search function to no avail.
> 
> Thanks!!



Hey Bullsneck,

Why not learn the math yourself?

So:

Grain in a BIAB mash ratio will suck up a couple of degree or 3... depending on vessel. So heat your water to 69 or so if you wanna mash a around 66!

Then the the grain will SOAK up about a litre a kilo of water added - loss.

Kettle loss 1-2L.

SO,


eg: using 5 kg of grain and want 23 into fermenter..

Assuming urn can handle it...

37L into urn.

Heat to 69 degress.

Put in bag, then grain and stir.

Temp should be around 66.

Maintain for an hour.

Pull bag out = Loss of 1L per kilo [If you drain, or go 1.5L if you dont] SO

37 - 5 =32 L in urn. [Pre boil]

Allow for up to 15% loss during boil, might not be that bad but calculate it as that figure until you know your rig.

SO, post boil is 32 - 15% = 27 odd L's.

Take 1-2 L kettle loss = 25L

Then cooling loss and trub etc..... I reckon that would put 23L or so into bottles!

OR someone may have posted the spread sheet by now and all this is arabic jargon!

Either way, brew beer!


:icon_cheers:

Bribie, am I wrong here? Sorry if so, have only ever BIAB'ed n a 50L vessel....


----------



## leiothrix

I have a 40L crown urn. For a 23L batch:
~5kg grain
~33L water 

After mashing & draining the bag for a bit and giving it a good squeeze i have 30L

After a 90 minute boil there is 25L

2L lost to trub, deadspace, etc, so 23L into fermenter.

My urn has the boil-dry protection removed so it does a constant boil. If you haven't done this the boil turns on and off, so you'd get less evaporation.

I also have a pickup tube on the tap so that gets more wort out of the urn.

HTH,
Rob.


----------



## under

phoneyhuh said:


> Here you go. You change the figures in red based on your recipe and your equipment... The figures in there at the moment are set to my 40L urn and Dr Smurto's Landlord ale.
> 
> View attachment 33367



Here is the setup sheet


----------



## bcp

"Any disadvantages of doing BIAB in a 40 litre pot in general also apply to urns, for example a 25 litre brew of extremely strong beer such as a Russian Imperial Stout would not be a serious candidate for this style of brewing"

Ok, so why? I looked at a recipe for Russian Imperial Stout and can't see what the problem is? I'm thinking about going the urn route so what else would be difficult to do?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

your problem with a BIG beer, is just that you will have more trouble fitting everything in the pot at once. A 40L urn is getting pretty full when you do a reasonably strong 23L batch... when you do a very strong one it is overfull. In most cases, the need to reserve some water for a sparge or top up addition is optional... with a big beer like an RIS, you will find it is necessary.

So there is no absolute reason you cant do an RIS in a 40L urn as a BIAB - but you will be required to use an "alternate" strategy. You will need to sparge quite a lot or do a re-iterated mash or other variations on the basic method like that. If you have the equipment to do it... no problems, if you don't it presents a problem.

You will probably find that you get distinctly less efficiency than normal too - all brewing methods tend to get lower efficiency when they have big grain bills, batch sparging is worse than fly sparging, BIAB is worse than batch sparging. Basically the less thoroughly your sparge, the worse it is - and all the the variations of BIAB have less intensive sparging regimes than other methods, so suffer a bit more drastically when the OG goes up.

This is a pretty stock standard brewing issue - lots of brewers have faced the "my mash tun isn't big enough to do a barleywine/RIS/IIPA" problem - you can get around it most of the time, its just a matter of it being a PITA. If you brew a lot of stronger ales, then your life will be stacks easier if you buy a mashtun or BIAB pot that is appropriately big.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

Yes it's an urn thing, not a BIAB thing. I was talking to Pistol Patch a few weeks ago and we both agreed it would be wonderful if Birko made a 50 litre urn.


----------



## malbur

BribieG said:


> Yes it's an urn thing, not a BIAB thing. I was talking to Pistol Patch a few weeks ago and we both agreed it would be wonderful if Birko made a 50 litre urn.



My urn is a 45 litre Aus made Woodson urn.
getting closer to 50L, not sure if there available anymore


----------



## Bribie G

malbur said:


> My urn is a 45 litre Aus made Woodson urn.
> getting closer to 50L, not sure if there available anymore


Never heard of them, however I see they are still in business and make urns but largest is 30L nowadays  Hang on to yours Malbur, you have the king of urns for BIAB  

One thing that I'm sure many would frown upon, but is fortuitous in my own case, is that my two mainstream styles are UK Real Ales and Aussie / International style lagers, both of which I use some sugaz with as part of the style. So a bit of sugar can remedy a million efficiency problems. 

Of course I wouldn't dream of doing so with a Bohemian Pilsener or a German of any description.


----------



## bcp

Ok, i've just purchased a 40litre Birko urn and want to set it up on Beer Smith. 

Can someone post their 'my equipment' profile?
Are there any other changes in the Options or anywhere else?


----------



## BjornJ

hi, don't have beersmith on this computer but the values are:

material: steel
loss to boil was 3.5 litre per hour
loss to trub 2.5 litres (after tap stops running this is left in kettle)
Veight 5.1 kg.

it takes mine 15 min from mash temp 66 degrees to reach mash-out at 76.
(with a steel colander over the element to not burn the bag)


hope this helps, thanks.


----------



## Phoney

So far ive been doing a single long mash where I heat water up to strike of say 68C, dump the grain, and passive lag for 90 mins.

But how would I do a mash schedule like this?

5 min Mash In Add 18.00 L of water at 36.6 C 35.0 C 
15 min Protien Rest Heat to 52.0 C over 10 min 52.0 C 
60 min Sacch Rest Heat to 63.0 C over 10 min 63.0 C 
20 min Step Heat to 72.0 C over 2 min 72.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C 

It may be as simple as turning the urn on & off, stirring with the mash paddle while it's on so as not to overheat the grain closest to the element, and monitor the time & temperature...but is there anything else I may need to know? Ive never done one of these multi-step mashes before.... (All these words like infusion, decoction, sacch rest, protein rest, confuse the bejeezus out of me!)


Cheers


----------



## PistolPatch

phoneyhuh said:


> (All these words like infusion, decoction, sacch rest, protein rest, confuse the bejeezus out of me!)



LOL phoney! Was just taking a break from some other stuff and saw your post.

Great question though. It could be one to ask in a separate topic or send Thirsty Boy a PM asking him to comment as he knows this sort of stuff.

The only problem I can see here is providing heat quick enough with an urn???

As you say, you can apply heat and keep stirring (or raise the bag during heat application) but I am worried you might be standing there a very long time 

The other question to consider (and the main reason I am replying here) is, "Should I even worry about a multi-step mash especially over such a wide temperature range?"

There are blokes over here that win Gold medals on lagers all the time and never step over such a range, if at all. For me, that says a lot.

These things are great to learn about but sometimes I wonder if they are even worth trying.

What I'm trying to say is ten points for the willingness to experiment but don't get over-confident that you will produce a better beer.


Pat

P.S. Not sure how well the spreadsheet mentioned a few posts above works for urns as I was only able to get figures on this from two urn brewers at that time - bribieG and crundle.


----------



## Phoney

Thanks Pat 

The question to consider is a good point. In fact for the dark ale I will be brewing this weekend with the above mash-regime I may not bother as you say and just do as I normally do and hope for the best. However ive been reading a lot on wit's and wiezen's lately and most of the experts in the style seem to be very adamant on a mult-step mash to acheive the best results, so this is something that I want to be able to at least have a have a crack at and hopefully master eventually... I might start up a new thread on this topic tomorrow!


As for the spreadsheet, for calculating water volumes it works beautifully! In fact ive gone one step further and marked out volumes with a permanent marker on my urn right beside the sight level, from 20L up to 33L. This means I no longer have to measure the water im pouring into the urn when im initially filling it up, and it also means that after raising & squeezing the bag if I find for that some reason im lets say a litre below my pre-boil volume, I sparge a litre of hot water through the spent grain, give it a squeeze and then do a top up..... Or on the other hand if im a litre over I just boil it off until it's right, and then start my timer. I would highly recommend all urn BIABers (who dont know their equipment like the backs of their hands) do this! 


Cheers! :icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

Top post phoney!

Glad to hear the spreadsheet works out okay on the, "tall narrow," vessells (urns). Very pleasing. Even better, it is great seeing guys like yourself passing on quality advice to Electric Urn BIABrewers - an area I know too little about.

I am very disappointed in you talking about Wits and Weizens though and will probably tell Batz on you    Wheat beer is not beer!

LOL,
Pat


----------



## Phoney

PistolPatch said:


> I am very disappointed in you talking about Wits and Weizens though and will probably tell Batz on you    Wheat beer is not beer!
> 
> LOL,
> Pat




No, it's the nectar of the gods!  

Cheers


----------



## Bribie G

phoneyhuh said:


> Thanks Pat
> 
> The question to consider is a good point. In fact for the dark ale I will be brewing this weekend with the above mash-regime I may not bother as you say and just do as I normally do and hope for the best. However ive been reading a lot on wit's and wiezen's lately and most of the experts in the style seem to be very adamant on a mult-step mash to acheive the best results, so this is something that I want to be able to at least have a have a crack at and hopefully master eventually... I might start up a new thread on this topic tomorrow!
> 
> 
> As for the spreadsheet, for calculating water volumes it works beautifully! In fact ive gone one step further and marked out volumes with a permanent marker on my urn right beside the sight level, from 20L up to 33L. This means I no longer have to measure the water im pouring into the urn when im initially filling it up, and it also means that after raising & squeezing the bag if I find for that some reason im lets say a litre below my pre-boil volume, I sparge a litre of hot water through the spent grain, give it a squeeze and then do a top up..... Or on the other hand if im a litre over I just boil it off until it's right, and then start my timer. I would highly recommend all urn BIABers (who dont know their equipment like the backs of their hands) do this!
> 
> 
> Cheers! :icon_cheers:



A copy of the spreadsheet would be great. Water volume is the one 'wobbly' factor I have come across with BIAB using a 40 L urn, as it's a full volume method. For example using a 3.5 k grain bill for a mild leaves you, after hoisting and squeezing, with far more wort pre-boil than a 6k bill for an American Amber and like you I've resorted to sparge in a bucket etc to build up the volume so, after a 90 min boil it will fill a Willow cube. Also it's not just a straight "x kg of grain will absorb y kilos of water so work it out stupid" - I often use a fair whack of adjuncts and find that, say 4 k of grain plus a kilo of rice ends up giving you more pre boil wort than 5 k of straight grain - the rice (or maize) seems to mostly disappear into soluble sugars.


----------



## Phoney

BribieG said:


> A copy of the spreadsheet would be great.



It's on page 5 of this thread 

LINK

Is that the one you mean?


----------



## PistolPatch

It's a tad hard to find the latest spreadsheet (almost impossible really) so here it is...
View attachment BIABrewer_Volumes_Spreadsheet.xls


Am working on finding someone to add some very simple grain and hop calcs to the sheet.

Fingers crossed 
Pat

P.S. Phoney may have linked the right one but I have so many versions on my computer alone, it is too time-consuming to check!


----------



## potof4x

BribieG said:


> *Hoisting the Bag*
> 
> A skyhook is welcome, I just use a single pulley which is a cheap awning pulley with a fairly thick cord to avoid it slipping off the wheel and jamming.
> 
> View attachment 29910
> 
> 
> On hoisting, the cord can be tied off and the bag left to drip at its own pace while the wort is raised to the boil. If no skyhook then raise manually and squeeze, then drain into a nappy bucket hanging off a doorknob. I have even hung mine off the freezer door of my dead fridge. I won't beat around the bush here .. hoisting and draining is the unpleasant aspect of BIAB, probably as much a PITA as having to scoop kilos of spent grain out of a mash tun and clean it and the braid, no free lunches. Unfortunately Bunnings etc don't seem to stock light double pulley tackle for some reason but some BIAB brewers may have ideas on a double pulley design.
> 
> BribieG August 2009



All that is required for for a double pulley system is another pulley identical to the one you already have, another anchor point and roughly double the rope. 
To setup, leave your original pulley where it is. Add another anchor point next to it (looks like a piece of string on a beam is used in the above photo). Then run your doubly long length of rope through your original pulley, through your new second pulley and then attach the end of the rope to your new anchor point. The new pulley will 'run' up and down with the bag, and it will take exactly half the force (but twice the time) to lift the weight of the bag.
Hope this helps!


----------



## leiothrix

I got me a hoist. I had a single pully and found it to be a real PITA trying to juggle everything. Because there is no ratchet on it it was kinda hard to do everything with only two hands.

Hoist is great though - press a button and it moves all by itself.


Edit: No affiliation, blah blah. Used their photo because I couldn't be arsed going down to the garage and taking a photo.


----------



## Phoney

That's a fine BIAB bling addition you've got yourself there! How much did that set you back if you dont mind me asking?


----------



## leiothrix

I got lucky on an auction and got it for $61 + $27 shipping.

At the moment they have it (linky) for $109 + $27 shipping buy-it-now.

Rob.


----------



## Bribie G

I'm impressed :icon_cheers: 
Even at the big price it's still in the league of a Counter Pressure Bottle filler, or a filter, so not outrageous.

With the single / double pulley thing I've spent $6 on a wall cleat and can now lift the bag with left hand to a suitable height then do a quick cleat hitch and it's sweet. Should have got one a year ago. Even with a fairly big grain bill, and I'm no Sumo Wrestler, I can hold the bag up for long enough to do a quick swoosh swoosh swoosh with my other well trained hand and everything is tied off nicely.


----------



## epe

I have been doing my brewing in a bag by adding the strikewater to a common amount of 3 liters/kg. And then adding boiling water to sustain or raise the temperature. This way you can easily have a mashout and do the actual mashing at normal water to grist ratios. The extra water propably isn't a problem. Ihave just been doing my brewing that way because to me it feels easiest.

Yuo'll obviously have to keep track of the added water to reach the final beer volume + boiloff + water absorbed by the spent grain (about 0,7 liters / kilo of grist). For my standard OB I'll use about 20+2+3,5*0,7~25.

I just love this BIAB method. It is so simple and it led me to all grain brewing. I started my experimentations in a 10 liter pot with a big nylon hopbag. That way you van easily extend your kits and extracts or just try all grain brewing. It isn't much harder than steeping grains.

In europe we have these normally 27-30 liters canning cettles wich work fine for 20 liters of lower gravity beers.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

absolutely nothing wrong with doing it that way epe - the only reason to use the high water to grain ratio, is that its a way to avoid needing another vessel in which to heat extra water. This was a goal of the original BIAB design. One vessel only needed - it was in fact nearly the point of BIAB to be done in a single vessel considering the method grew out of a thread about brewing in a single pot. So... the high L:G ratio was a _result_ of the one vessel limitation. Its not in any way a requirement of BIAB brewing to brew at high L:G ratios, if you happen to have another vessel to heat up extra water in.

The simplest and easiest way to do a BIAB is to have a bigger pot, use all the water at the start, not bother with a sparge and just go.... BUT if a bigger pot is harder for you than an extra pot, the situation becomes reversed and the lower L:G ratios make a lot of sense.

TB


----------



## boobiedazzler

this excellend thread has inspired me to take the plunge into all grain brewing so im gonna pick up a birko this arvo. can someone tell me how to attach a length of pipe to the tap so hot wert can be run straight into a cube, will i need to change the tap to a ballvalve or can i wedge one right up into it and will it stay there


----------



## Phoney

boobiedazzler said:


> can someone tell me how to attach a length of pipe to the tap so hot wert can be run straight into a cube, will i need to change the tap to a ballvalve or can i wedge one right up into it and will it stay there



Pop your urn on top of a milk crate and it'll be at just the right height for the cube's opening to sit underneath the tap.


----------



## Ross

boobiedazzler said:


> this excellend thread has inspired me to take the plunge into all grain brewing so im gonna pick up a birko this arvo. can someone tell me how to attach a length of pipe to the tap so hot wert can be run straight into a cube, will i need to change the tap to a ballvalve or can i wedge one right up into it and will it stay there




1/2" silicon hose fits the Crown Urns we sell perfectly - I assume the Birko has a similar tap if that's what you've decided on.

Cheers Ross


----------



## big78sam

boobiedazzler, I have a birko and it's quite a wide tap. I use a standard 12mm silicon hose but I needed to cut a slit in the pipe and hold it in while transferring (with gloves or you'll burn yourself). You'll struggle to get 12mm tubing to stay on. The method I use does the job through and I preferred this to changing the tap as I'm useless at that sort of thing

You could try and get a wider silicon hose but grain and grape didn't have them. Your LHBS may have. G&G had 16mm vinyl tubing but this is rated only to 70 degrees. They said it should still so the job but I preferred to stick with the silicon I know.

EDIT: Ross' suggestion of a crown is possible but I didn;t want to have to do anything to the urn and apparently the biol dry switch needs a workaround with the crown. A search will give you plenty of info on crown v birko


----------



## Ross

big78sam said:


> EDIT: Ross' suggestion of a crown is possible but I didn;t want to have to do anything to the urn and apparently the biol dry switch needs a workaround with the crown. A search will give you plenty of info on crown v birko




The Crown Urn does not require any electrical modding (not recommended), but if using outside in the open some insulation around the urn will definately assist in getting a stronger boil.

cheers Ross


----------



## Bribie G

Ross said:


> 1/2" silicon hose fits the Crown Urns we sell perfectly - I assume the Birko has a similar tap if that's what you've decided on.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Unfortunately the Birko tap is different, it doesn't fit. <_< Much as I like the Birko they have also made the current tap cheaper and nastier than some old models I have seen, and the tap can disintegrate if you dismantle it for cleaning too often. I'm getting a ball lock tap myself which should solve all problems. 
My urn sits on a stand so that the tap is just above my no chill cube and I just run it in. Hot side aeration? Maybe but it hasn't affected my ales AFAIK. However as an insurance policy when I get the ball lock I'll use the silicone hose, which I already have on hand.


----------



## boobiedazzler

well i just got home with my new birko. regular all grain brewing here we come. as for the hose issue, im going to try and find a 20mm high temp hose to fit on the outside of the tap and secure it with a hoseclamp because the inside has teeth that would make it tough for a hose or tube to fit inside the tap without leaking. 

this is probably a dumb question but whats the need to dismantle the tap for cleaning if the only thing going through it is post boiled hot wert .. Or is this just for those that cool the liqor down while its still in the kettle. in my case i plan to transfer straight to a cube and let it cool naturally over a week. will probably run some hot water through it at the end but not sure how fastidious i need to be about sanitation because imo 25 liters of almost boiling wert is going to kill any bacteria.


----------



## Pollux

I stripped down my crown urn tap after every boil, the gunk that is in there would not be pleasant if ignored for a week or so.....


----------



## Bribie G

I started dismantling the tap after I tried to do a "no chill" in the urn overnight and got an infection. On taking the tap apart I found some hop debris etc. Always do it now.


----------



## leiothrix

I pulled apart my three piece ball valve that was hooked up to my crown urn the other day and learned two thing:

1. A fair bit of gunk does build up inside. Hasn't affected anything i've made though as i've NC'ed in either the fermenter or cube, so only boiling hot wort has moved through it.

2. There are significantly more than three pieces in a three piece ball valve.

Rob.


----------



## Bribie G

:lol: Reminds me of when I took my font taps apart for the first time, for cleaning. Wheels within wheels within wheels ............ :unsure:


----------



## DoctorBob

BribieG said:


> :lol: Reminds me of when I took my font taps apart for the first time, for cleaning. Wheels within wheels within wheels ............ :unsure:



Hi BribieG,

I'm interested in some of your earlier posts relating to multi vessel BIAB. I have got 2 x 36L ss pots & a 59L ss pot ready to build a 3v recirculating 2 pump rig........but it won't happen quickly...time & money. It would be great to do a few BIABs with the 3 vessels in the meantime, and start the move away from kits & bits / extract.

Do you reckon I could do a 40 L double batch by adding 26L water in V1 plus 8kg grain, then swop the bag to V2 (26L water), then transfer contents of V1, and V2 to V3 and boil. With loses of around 4L at boil, 2L to trub, and 5.6L to grist absorbtion it should give about 40L final vol from what I have read on this thread?

Will 8kg grain and 26L water fit in a 36L pot? or could I just add 20L to V1, and V2, then warm a bit more water up and stick it in with the wort in V3 before starting the boil to get the pre boil volume to 46L if needed?


----------



## Bribie G

Doc, let you know in the morning, its late and I've had a massive amount of Thames Valley II Brakspear wannabe :chug:


----------



## rendo

Hey BribieG,

So since then have u also done no-chill in the urn with no issues

rendo



BribieG said:


> I started dismantling the tap after I tried to do a "no chill" in the urn overnight and got an infection. On taking the tap apart I found some hop debris etc. Always do it now.


----------



## Ross

Doctor Bob said:


> Hi BribieG,
> 
> I'm interested in some of your earlier posts relating to multi vessel BIAB. I have got 2 x 36L ss pots & a 59L ss pot ready to build a 3v recirculating 2 pump rig........but it won't happen quickly...time & money. It would be great to do a few BIABs with the 3 vessels in the meantime, and start the move away from kits & bits / extract.
> 
> Do you reckon I could do a 40 L double batch by adding 26L water in V1 plus 8kg grain, then swop the bag to V2 (26L water), then transfer contents of V1, and V2 to V3 and boil. With loses of around 4L at boil, 2L to trub, and 5.6L to grist absorbtion it should give about 40L final vol from what I have read on this thread?
> 
> Will 8kg grain and 26L water fit in a 36L pot? or could I just add 20L to V1, and V2, then warm a bit more water up and stick it in with the wort in V3 before starting the boil to get the pre boil volume to 46L if needed?




Doc,

Why all the vessel changing?? Just do the BIAB in vessel 3 (57L), it's all you need.

cheers Ross


----------



## DoctorBob

Ross said:


> Doc,
> 
> Why all the vessel changing?? Just do the BIAB in vessel 3 (57L), it's all you need.
> 
> cheers Ross



Hi Ross,

Thanks for the reply,

I guess I am just after feedback on the best approach (ease & efficiency) given the equipment I currently have available.

I wondered if you would get better efficiency by doing the second immersion of the bag in clean water to extract more of the sugars.

I suppose you could just use two pots to do this?

Or maybe as you say just do a single immersion of the bag in the big vessel. 

Cheers

Rob


----------



## Bribie G

If you have a sky hook and ability to lift what will be a very heavy bag, just looking at the figures briefly I'd go the Ross suggestion, however with that size pot you may be struggling a bit to get to the final 40 L with evaporation, loss to trub etc. I assume you are doing a batch for 2 kegs so you would need to hit that volume to allow for loss during racking. I would personally go for a BIAB in the big pot but do a dunk sparge in one of the smaller pots to get some extra wort to make up your pre boil volume.


----------



## Ross

BribieG said:


> If you have a sky hook and ability to lift what will be a very heavy bag, just looking at the figures briefly I'd go the Ross suggestion, however with that size pot you may be struggling a bit to get to the final 40 L with evaporation, loss to trub etc.




Bribie,

No problem at all getting a 40L final volume out of a 59L Pot - heaps of room 

cheers Ross


----------



## Bribie G

Practically that would be the equivalent of getting around 27L out of my 40 L urn, and that's doable with a one hour boil, but I find with a 90 min rolling boil in the Birko I get only around 24- 25 L and end up with a nicely full cube and maybe a litre in the schottie for a yeast starter. However it also depends on the strength of the brew, I find a 40L struggles with a bigger bill (say 5.5 K) but pisses it in with a smaller bill (say 3.5 for a mild). 

:icon_offtopic: My Bri-bot system I am looking at will have in-situ sparging available without messing around with a bucket sparge so I can brew to obtain a precise volume. One less hassle.


----------



## big78sam

I've done a search but can't seem to find anything... 

Are there some tips on what to do when cleaning a tap on the newer style birko urns? I'm hopeless at that sort of thing and did get lots of hops in the tap (enough to block it completely and without going into the details it caused me lots of grief) in my last brew. I used plugs for the first time without a hop sock. I managed to partially clean them out but I'm guessing there's still crud left inside.


----------



## Ross

BribieG said:


> Practically that would be the equivalent of getting around 27L out of my 40 L urn, and that's doable with a one hour boil, but I find with a 90 min rolling boil in the Birko I get only around 24- 25 L and end up with a nicely full cube and maybe a litre in the schottie for a yeast starter. However it also depends on the strength of the brew, I find a 40L struggles with a bigger bill (say 5.5 K) but pisses it in with a smaller bill (say 3.5 for a mild).




Bribie,

My vessels are 57L & I have no problem at all boiling 90 mins with a full rolling boil for 90 minutes. The boil off is irrelevant to beer strength, it only makes a difference to fitting all the grain & entire boil volume in the vessel at once, & yes that would be dependant on beer strength, easy to handle though with the spare vessels Bob has on hand.
If you are getting 24 to 25L with a 90 minute boil, then the 59L should produce 43 to 44L as the boil off volume will be the same, so allowing for possible differences in boil off rates between the 2 systems, 40L should be easily managable.

cheers Ross


----------



## boobiedazzler

bribieg if you end up with 24-25 litres then how big is your cube. are you leaving some of the liqor behind, like the amount below the tap which is going to have crap settled out of it such as hop waste and grain protein or whatever the hell that stuff is that drops out. i bought two 20 litre cubes and i think i should aim to follow your instructions to the letter for the first few attempts. you seem to have it sorted with volumes, boil times and so on

big78sam the blocked tap sounds like a terrible experience and once im going to be thinking about so i dont suffer the same fate. do you think some sort of metal gauze screen would stop this from happening in future?


----------



## big78sam

I know others have done something similar, i.e gauze screen. I think I'll use a hop sock next time and that should solve the problem. I'm also going to make sure I have a long enough hose so I can syphon into the cube if need be. 

I had cut my hose into convenient 1 metre leghts and this wasn't quite enough to syphon. In the end I had to use a jug to get the wort from the urn to the cube and I ended up leaving a good 5 litres in the urn. Thankfully it was still hot enough to avoid any infection problems. I just hope this didnt splash around too much.


----------



## Bribie G

Ross, yes I was forgetting that the boil off volume should be fairly similar as the circular surface exposed to the atmosphere would be fairly similar in a 60L pot and a 40L one. I was simply multiplying everything by 2/3 but I take your point. 

Those 20 L willow cubes are actually 23 L but I'm not sure about any Rays outdoors or BCF type jerrycans.

I don't know about the current BIRKO taps but mine screws off like so:





and everything can be cleaned out - but eventually the plastic thread that goes onto the metal thread of the tap moulding will strip. On the old Birkos the plastic tap had an inbuilt metal thread sunk into it so it was metal on metal, but it's now made cheaper and nastier. And they want $40 for the plastic tap assembly so they can bite their bums. Ball valve is same or cheaper. If your tap is the same I'd recommend getting a tube of proper tap lube like the sponsors sell and smear the threads with a little bit of that for longer life and no cross threading and forcing.


----------



## big78sam

Thanks Bribie, once again you're a great help. I'll give it a go.


----------



## boobiedazzler

For measuring purposes on the Birko Urn, I am using a steel ruler. It appears that as a general guide, 1cm is close to 1litre, Basing this on: 

Pi x Radius x Height

or (3.14) x (17.5cm x 17.5cm) x (43cm)

It would mean that the max. volume of the urn is about 41.3litres. Remembering that the element takes up some space, as well as the cake rack in there, as well as the sight gauge nuts and the tap nut, 1cm=1litre is a good rule of thumb.


----------



## bcp

boobiedazzler said:


> For measuring purposes on the Birko Urn, I am using a steel ruler. It appears that as a general guide, 1cm is close to 1litre, Basing this on:
> 
> Pi x Radius x Height
> 
> or (3.14) x (17.5cm x 17.5cm) x (43cm)
> 
> It would mean that the max. volume of the urn is about 41.3litres. Remembering that the element takes up some space, as well as the cake rack in there, as well as the sight gauge nuts and the tap nut, 1cm=1litre is a good rule of thumb.



Yes, i used the same formula and rule of thumb for the birko. The only thing is that hot water will expand a little - more than i expected. It doesn't really matter because you only have to write down your measurements and make adjustments to your starting volume next time. Having said that - 5 brews in and i'm still slightly unsure of my starting volume even given adjustments for grain bills.


----------



## Phoney

BribieG said:


> *Disadvantages of an urn. *
> 
> ......
> 
> Any disadvantages of doing BIAB in a 40 litre pot in general also apply to urns, for example a 25 litre brew of extremely strong beer such as a Russian Imperial Stout would not be a serious candidate for this style of brewing. However for most brewers who prefer their beer between 3.5 % and 6% ABV they should have few efficiency problems.



Well, ive gone against the grain (excuse the pun) and successfully brewed a 8.2KG grain bill for a 23L batch in my urn on the weekend. Obviously, as with all grain bills of over 6kg I had to reserve 4 - 5L in a separate pot, then after hoisting the bag I sparged the grains with that water heated on the stove @ 78C into a bucket. 

OG 1085 so dead on 75% efficiency. 

It can be done!


----------



## Nevalicious

Well, after thorough reading of the both of Nick JD's threads on the simple AG methods (move to all grain for 30 bucks and 20LT stovetop brewing) and this great thread, it has inspired me to take the plunge to the dark side. 

I have ordered one of the 30lt urns off of evilbay (as opposed to the 40lt ones, mine is far cheaper (time will tell if the quality shows it)), went to spotlight and picked up an end of roll (3m) of swiss voile for nix. The grain and hop bags are currently being sewn up by my talented auntie... I guess the only thing left I need to consider is what exactly to brew. Efficiency for my first AG aside, I would like to try something a little more challenging than what Nick did in his original thread (pale malt and 1 x 60 min adddtion of POR, although I realise that was just for the purpose of the example), I have a handle on using specialty grains in extracts and uses and flavours of many different hops, so that shouldn't be an issue...

I've did had a squiz around the site, so many to choose from... Was looking at trying a malt driven dark english ale using preferably EKG as its main hop, pretty much coz I have plenty of it from when I was doing extracts. 

Any suggestions to an AG noob on a tried and tested beer of the above style that wouldn't be too difficult?? Maybe a recipe using something a little more complex than just base pale malt (rice, wheat malt??). Any suggestions would be swell

Thanks again guys

Tyler


----------



## argon

Nevalicious said:


> Well, after thorough reading of the both of Nick JD's threads on the simple AG methods (move to all grain for 30 bucks and 20LT stovetop brewing) and this great thread, it has inspired me to take the plunge to the dark side.
> 
> I have ordered one of the 30lt urns off of evilbay (as opposed to the 40lt ones, mine is far cheaper (time will tell if the quality shows it)), went to spotlight and picked up an end of roll (3m) of swiss voile for nix. The grain and hop bags are currently being sewn up by my talented auntie... I guess the only thing left I need to consider is what exactly to brew. Efficiency for my first AG aside, I would like to try something a little more challenging than what Nick did in his original thread (pale malt and 1 x 60 min adddtion of POR, although I realise that was just for the purpose of the example), I have a handle on using specialty grains in extracts and uses and flavours of many different hops, so that shouldn't be an issue...
> 
> I've did had a squiz around the site, so many to choose from... Was looking at trying a malt driven dark english ale using preferably EKG as its main hop, pretty much coz I have plenty of it from when I was doing extracts.
> 
> Any suggestions to an AG noob on a tried and tested beer of the above style that wouldn't be too difficult?? Maybe a recipe using something a little more complex than just base pale malt (rice, wheat malt??). Any suggestions would be swell
> 
> Thanks again guys
> 
> Tyler



Try this on for size... it's essentially Dr Smurto's Landlord ... a clone of Timothy Taylor's Landlord. 

Not too difficult, not too simple... 100% delicious. Great English Ale


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Landlord 23L
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 38.00 L 
Boil Size: 42.40 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 11.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 32.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
8.70 kg Golden Promise (Floor Malted (3.2 SRM) Grain 96.67 % 
0.30 kg Caraaroma (198.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 % 
45.00 gm Fuggles [4.20 %] (90 min) Hops 12.7 IBU 
45.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (50 min) Hops 12.6 IBU 
45.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 7.0 IBU 
2.00 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
10.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 9.00 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 31.19 L of water at 70.8 C 66.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 18.71 L of water at 91.6 C 75.0 C 


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## argon

Oops!!! put in the double batch... that won't work for you in the 30L urn here's the single batch version (won't let me edit)


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Landlord 23L
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.43 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 10.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 31.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.91 kg Golden Promise (Floor Malted (3.2 SRM) Grain 96.67 % 
0.17 kg Caraaroma (198.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 % 
26.52 gm Fuggles [4.20 %] (90 min) Hops 12.4 IBU 
26.52 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (50 min) Hops 12.4 IBU 
26.52 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU 
1.21 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
6.05 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.08 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 17.62 L of water at 70.8 C 66.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 10.57 L of water at 91.6 C 75.0 C 


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## haysie

what do you urn guys suggest using for a thermometer? I notice some chat about loss of temp during mash, how do you measure that without a fixed probe type thermometer? thx


----------



## bcp

haysie said:


> what do you urn guys suggest using for a thermometer? I notice some chat about loss of temp during mash, how do you measure that without a fixed probe type thermometer? thx



I've got a digital thermometer with a long probe. I can pretty much put that inside the bag. 



The only thing is i've got two digital thermometers and they vary by about 1.5c, depending on the temp. So... which one is correct? They both seem about right at boiling and freezing, so stuffed if i know.


----------



## felten

bcp said:


> The only thing is i've got two digital thermometers and they vary by about 1.5c, depending on the temp. So... which one is correct? They both seem about right at boiling and freezing, so stuffed if i know.



Cook a few eggs with them..... http://blog.khymos.org/2009/04/09/towards-...oft-boiled-egg/ h34r:


----------



## Bribie G

I just use a hand held stick digital thermometer to check: 

Temp of strike liquor
What mash temp I actually got
What the temp got down to after a 60 or 90 min mash (out of interest, and for future reference: nothing much else you can do at that stage  )

When lagging urn with an old sleeping bag then a doonah I always seem to get about a degree drop per hour, and considering that most of the conversion takes place in the first 20 mins then that's fine by me. If you are using passive lagging like doonahs you could maybe go half a degree higher for initial mash temperature, if accuracy is a worry, and it should all come out in the wash. 

On the rare occasion when you stuff up and, when checking the initial mash temp, the mash turns out say two degrees below target  then it's easy with an urn, just quickly hoist just off the element, apply a burst of power for only a couple of minutes, pump the mash like buggery, turn off the power and you'll find all is restored to target. An urn can take a fair while to raise cold water to strike temperature, but once you are in the dough in zone, where you are talking just a degree or two difference, it doesn't take 2400w much time to heat up that degree or two. In fact you have to be right on the ball to make sure you don't overshoot. 

B)


----------



## haysie

bcp said:


> I've got a digital thermometer with a long probe. I can pretty much put that inside the bag.
> View attachment 42404
> 
> 
> The only thing is i've got two digital thermometers and they vary by about 1.5c, depending on the temp. So... which one is correct? They both seem about right at boiling and freezing, so stuffed if i know.



I have seen these in action, down the inside of a keg spear. The cable part I dont like though.




BribieG said:


> I just use a hand held stick digital thermometer to check:
> 
> Temp of strike liquor
> What mash temp I actually got
> What the temp got down to after a 60 or 90 min mash (out of interest, and for future reference: nothing much else you can do at that stage  )
> 
> When lagging urn with an old sleeping bag then a doonah I always seem to get about a degree drop per hour, and considering that most of the conversion takes place in the first 20 mins then that's fine by me. If you are using passive lagging like doonahs you could maybe go half a degree higher for initial mash temperature, if accuracy is a worry, and it should all come out in the wash.
> 
> On the rare occasion when you stuff up and, when checking the initial mash temp, the mash turns out say two degrees below target  then it's easy with an urn, just quickly hoist just off the element, apply a burst of power for only a couple of minutes, pump the mash like buggery, turn off the power and you'll find all is restored to target. An urn can take a fair while to raise cold water to strike temperature, but once you are in the dough in zone, where you are talking just a degree or two difference, it doesn't take 2400w much time to heat up that degree or two. In fact you have to be right on the ball to make sure you don't overshoot.
> 
> B)



Very true, temperature is all about hitting and not so the losses. My mashtun can lose anything from 1 > 5deg on a 90 min mash (pockets) Stirring a mash before mashout also distributes the loss even worse.
Mashing out whilst stirring grain and stirring a stick cant be that hard afterall. B)


----------



## Bribie G

I agree, hitting the temp first up is the goal. With BIAB (provided you have something to thoroughly blend the mash with - like my oversize potato-masher paint stirrer) - you don't get 'pockets' that could come back to bite you, and with an urn you can very quickly rescue a mash that hasn't hit the proper temp.


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

Hi Bribie 

This morning I successfully took my new urn on her maiden voyage. All smooth sailing. After a year or so using a bigw 19l pot on my stove (nickjd style) this is pure luxury!

Thanks for the inspiration and this great guide.

Cheers

MOM.


----------



## Bribie G

Glad it worked out well. My first Urn BIAB was my very first AG as well, over 2 years ago - it's an excellent system. I was at a 3V brewday the other day and my kit n kilo mate came along for a look and I was explaining the different steps as they occurred - for example the batch sparging, the trundling the kettle out to the rambo on the patio and lighting it etc. "oh I see, that's like when you stand at the wall and click the switch on for the boil"..   

Not rubbishing the other systems, they also make great beer and we all had a great brew day at Winkle's but as you so rightly say, the_ luxury_ :drinks:


----------



## eviljesus

Hey guys,

Looking at doing my first batch and it so happens i have a 50L boiler at home ready to roll. 4.5KW element, so very capable.

I'd preferably like to do some double batches, and judging from argon's recipe's posted above, I should be able to do enough for 2 x 23L batches in the one go? (or is he doing 2 x 19L batches?, i suspect he is.

Can you do it like the FWK you see at the HBS where they are about 15 litres, add 5 litres of water? Sort of a concentrate? 

Ultimately id like to do a double batch, no-chill it, get one batch fermenting straight away and leave a cube for later.


----------



## theredone

hey guys,
did my first brew in new urn last night, didnt really think about hcf, just thought more water so more hops..... giving it more thought now i think ive done it wrong. the denser the water the less bitterness extracted? thus watered down wort(pre boil 35ltrs ish) would extract more? meaning i should decrease the amount of hops?

not too sure on this one

cheers
red


----------



## Bribie G

If you are talking full volume brew in a 40L urn, then the density of the wort should be the same as any other mashing method, e.g. 3 vessel or HERMS etc and wouldn't affect the quantitiy of hops at all. Think of it this way - by the time you have drained and got rid of the bag, then BIAB has done its job and assuming you are heading for a "normal" 23 litre-ish brew and an hour or hour and a half boil, then no hop adjustment needed, if you are following a recipe designed for that size batch.

I think you may be getting a bit confused with the "over gravity" brewing as practiced by MINI BIABers who use smaller pots - NickJD or RdeVjun may wish to comment on that. :icon_cheers:


----------



## RdeVjun

Yeah, sounds like over- gravity boil to me? red, we need some more details to be sure about this and I'm not sure what you mean by 'hcf'
Which ever way, a general rule of thumb is when the boil gravity exceeds 1.050, add 10% more IBUs per 0.010 over that figure- i.e. the stronger the wort the lower the hops utilisation (search will turn up heaps of resources). However, if your software is aware, it should factor that in automagically (but not all of them can handle over- gravity boils sensibly). In practical terms though, unless you're dealing with quite unusual wort, it is generally not worth getting excited about.


----------



## theredone

cheers guys ill just go as per recipe and c how it goes, if its not bitter enough ill bump up for next brew.


----------



## ianh

theredone said:


> hey guys,
> did my first brew in new urn last night, didnt really think about hcf, just thought more water so more hops..... giving it more thought now i think ive done it wrong. the denser the water the less bitterness extracted? thus watered down wort(pre boil 35ltrs ish) would extract more? meaning i should decrease the amount of hops?
> 
> not too sure on this one
> 
> cheers
> red



Hi Red

The hcf (hop concentration factor) is involved in the Gareth method of calculating bitterness and only becomes important when boiling small volumes compared with the fermented volume. So does not apply to BIAB.

This link will give you more info link


cheers

Ian


----------



## homebrewkid

just read the tuitorial good write up 
im going to do this one day............
for a double pulley block try your local boat shop or bias marine or whitworths 
brand name ronstan might be strong enough both shops have websites and mail order
just a thought hope this helps someone out [these pulleys are used to hoist sails in the wind so should be pretty strong]
but id ask the friendly staff first explain what you are doing and the weight of what you want to lift 
they will be all to happy to help out id think.


p.s if anyone does try this id love to know how it goes please.

p.p.s they also make 3 pulley blocks


----------



## Endo

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/48-litre-tea-coffee...bb#ht_500wt_843

Just saw these on ebay... 48litres


----------



## kjparker

Endo said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/48-litre-tea-coffee...bb#ht_500wt_843
> 
> Just saw these on ebay... 48litres




Run. Run as fast as you can from these.....


----------



## Endo

clueless said:


> Run. Run as fast as you can from these.....



That good huh?

Boooo was such a good size too


----------



## Wolfman

What about these?

http://www.cedarhospitality.com/products/c...r-urn-36ltr.php


----------



## theredone

hey has anyone found that the crowns dont have a very vicious boil? thus you need to boil a bit longet to try and reduce down to an acceptable voulme to OG? my first few batches came out with like 26ltrs at 1.030.(efficiency may be partly to blame also)


----------



## Bribie G

Exposed element or concealed element? I've got an exposed and it boils down ok. I still get mixed messages about the concealed element ones, if that's yours then I'd be looking to try lagging with camping mat or that silver covered foam you get from Clark Rubber, and also budget in a 90 min boil for most brews. 

Also look at your strike liquor, how did you calculate yours? In the case of my Crown I have a 33L mark on the sight tube and this is just about spot on for:

5.5k grain bill
60 min boil
23L cube full (Willow 20L cube actually holds 23) plus a half litre extra to keep for a starter. 

:icon_cheers:


----------



## theredone

Yeah i have the concealed, thought they were the way to go, have done the mod to bypass boilover cutout thing as well.

so lag it and just always leave it on? the camping mat wont melt?

lol i dont calculate, i just fill with water till it looks good  mind you going off the pictures in this tread mine is never quite as full as the OP's. by the sight tube, what do you mean? there is a tube coming out near the tap of mine but i was pretty sure that was just for allowing air to get to the tap to improve flow, might be wrong though, ill have to check it out. 

either way though i should really put a mark on it for water level. but anyways, i still dont think it is boiling as strongly as it should, at a guess i loose maybe 2 ltrs through a 1 hour boil (bout an inch worth of reduction = roughly 2 ltrs?) and i have started to boild for half hour - hour b4 adding hops to reduce it down now.


----------



## Joshisgood

Hi all, going to be doing my first biab tomorrow morning. Got everything sorted I think, just realized I'm not sure how much water to start with. I'm using a crown 40l urn and plan on doing a 90 min mash and 90min boil with a roughly 5kg grainbill, aiming for a 23 litre batch of dsga, any advice here would be well appreciated
Cheers


----------



## felten

There's an up to date volume calc spreadsheet on biabrewer.info, you might have to sign up for it though.

There's an older version floating around on this forum somewhere that I still use. I think PP prefers people being linked to the latest version though.


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks felten  

We're working on a new calculator now that will most likely be called the BIABacus. It is much more fancier than the current calculator and does some pretty clever stuff.

I think once we have that up, we'll consider allowing access to it without having to go through the full BIABrewer.info registration process that currently exists.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


----------



## eviljesus

Getting all my gear ready and gave the 40L Birko a test run tonight to make sure she could do it. First BIAB goes down on Monday! 

Still looking for a recipe that I can decide on. If anyone the would recommend or has any suggestions, I'm all ears! Preferable to keep it fairly simple for a first run.


----------



## Mikedub

eviljesus said:


> Getting all my gear ready and gave the 40L Birko a test run tonight to make sure she could do it. First BIAB goes down on Monday!
> 
> Still looking for a recipe that I can decide on. If anyone the would recommend or has any suggestions, I'm all ears! Preferable to keep it fairly simple for a first run.



if you want simple go with a recipe of grain, water, hops, maybe some yeast when it cools down a bit,  
sorry - being a smart arse,
so many to choose from in the database, what have you got in the way of ingredients?


----------



## eviljesus

Just done some more reading and nailed down my first 2 recipes.

Dr Smurto's Golden Ale
&
Rude's English

Those two brews should give me a good base to get started and work the potential kinks out of the setup and learn the ropes before I move on to more advanced beers.


----------



## Crusty

theredone said:


> hey has anyone found that the crowns dont have a very vicious boil? thus you need to boil a bit longet to try and reduce down to an acceptable voulme to OG? my first few batches came out with like 26ltrs at 1.030.(efficiency may be partly to blame also)



I was going to ask this as well. I got my 40lt Crown exposed element urn yesterday & dome some water calibrations on the sight glass. BeerSmith 2 suggests a 30lt pre-boil approx for me so I fired it up & let her rip. Once boiling, I took note of how gentle the boil is compared to my old system, 23jet mongolian with LPG. I lost 8l/hr to that burner so my boil was probably on the extreme side. The Crown boil is very gentle, almost a simmering rolling boil, but definately boiling. I am going to run another test this morning & see how many litres I lose for a 60min boil.


----------



## Bribie G

I've got used to the Crown boil (about the same as a Birko) so I reckon that's what you get with 2.4 kw. 
I'd suggest you decide how much final volume you need for a cube plus loss to trub, pour that volume of water in the urn and put a dot on the sight tube. Then top up to what you estimate as your full volume, put another dot, and do a 60 min test boil. That should give you a good idea of how much you will lose in a 60min boil.

After squillions of brews I just go by the dots nowadays and yes over time some of the dots have moved up and down as I got to grips with Urnest, and I have various dots for big grain bills, adjunct grain bills, 90 min boils, whatever


----------



## Crusty

Ok, test done, urn is still hot & may lose a tad more to cooling losses but I filled to the 33l mark & boiled for 60mins, no insulation & lost 3L approximately. Hope that sounds about right.


----------



## ianh

Crusty said:


> Ok, test done, urn is still hot & may lose a tad more to cooling losses but I filled to the 33l mark & boiled for 60mins, no insulation & lost 3L approximately. Hope that sounds about right.



Hi Crusty

I have a Crown 40l concealed element urn with a camping mat for insulation and get 3.4/3.5 litres per hour evaporation (in unheated garage).

Water losses about 4% in volume cooling from 100C to 20C so you may get a bit more.

BIAB Spreadsheet may be of help Link lastest version in post 30


----------



## Crusty

ianh said:


> Hi Crusty
> 
> I have a Crown 40l concealed element urn with a camping mat for insulation and get 3.4/3.5 litres per hour evaporation (in unheated garage).
> 
> Water losses about 4% in volume cooling from 100C to 20C so you may get a bit more.
> 
> BIAB Spreadsheet may be of help Link lastest version in post 30



When you say camping mat, do you mean the thick stuff that goes together like a jigsaw puzzle or the cheap blue mat that you can sleep on? I am worried that it might melt whilst boiling as the urn is way too hot to touch when boiling.
I don't have excel which is a real PITA. I would love to use the spreadsheet but can't unfortunately.
Looks as though you have spent quite some time on the project mate, top effort.


----------



## eviljesus

Well just finished my first BIAB. 

Very easy, didnt take too long. It just cooling down now so I can pitch tomorrow hopefully!


----------



## Crusty

eviljesus said:


> Well just finished my first BIAB.
> 
> Very easy, didnt take too long. It just cooling down now so I can pitch tomorrow hopefully!



More info please. How did it all go?


----------



## eviljesus

Went excellent! My urn took a bit to warm up but I've got the cake tin ready for the next batch which will (hopefully) be happening this weekend). That should get everything up to temp properly. I'm also going to take a bit more time to check strike temps and get them bang on next time. They were pretty close, (plus, minus 2 degrees) but should they be closer? Is it worth the effort?

My final gravity was 1.030, which is very thin I know. I don't think it was an efficiency problem or a problem with the actually BIAB process itself, moreover I attempted the sparge in a bucket and clearly used WAY too much extra water I boiled onwater. What is the max amount of water you would use for a sparge? Is it even worth doing to squeeze every last bit out of the grain? How do you guys do the sparge in a bucket?

Also was a bit excited so forgot to add the whirlfloc but a bit of haziness really doesnt faze me at all. 

The US05 is currently making its way through it at 20.3 degrees (when i checked last). I am EXCITED to be kegging and drinking this thats for sure.


----------



## Crusty

eviljesus said:


> Went excellent! My urn took a bit to warm up but I've got the cake tin ready for the next batch which will (hopefully) be happening this weekend). That should get everything up to temp properly. I'm also going to take a bit more time to check strike temps and get them bang on next time. They were pretty close, (plus, minus 2 degrees) but should they be closer? Is it worth the effort?
> 
> My final gravity was 1.030, which is very thin I know. I don't think it was an efficiency problem or a problem with the actually BIAB process itself, moreover I attempted the sparge in a bucket and clearly used WAY too much extra water I boiled onwater. What is the max amount of water you would use for a sparge? Is it even worth doing to squeeze every last bit out of the grain? How do you guys do the sparge in a bucket?
> 
> Also was a bit excited so forgot to add the whirlfloc but a bit of haziness really doesnt faze me at all.
> 
> The US05 is currently making its way through it at 20.3 degrees (when i checked last). I am EXCITED to be kegging and drinking this thats for sure.



Nice one, seems like it went pretty well. I'm not going to sparge at all, it's probably not worth the extra effort for the minimal gain in efficiency. Although I have been all grain brewing for around 5yrs, I am a complete noob at biab. I have got my 40lt Crown exposed element urn, grain bag, hops bag & a new MashMaster Minimill. I am just doing some water tests & temp rest tests to see how much temp I loose in 90mins. I am looking at hitting Bunnings this week & getting a skyhook of some kind & some other bits & pieces. I am just going to follow BribieG's advice & see where I end up. BeerSmith tells me 33lt into the urn, heat to 69deg, bag in & grain in, hopefully that's 66deg rest for 90mins. Raise temp to 78deg whilst pumping with paint stirrer & once at 78, give the mash a good pumping, remove bag & drain naturally whilst getting to the boil. Just before the boil, squeeze the bag into a bucket & add to the urn, 60min boil.


----------



## edschache

Crusty said:


> When you say camping mat, do you mean the thick stuff that goes together like a jigsaw puzzle or the cheap blue mat that you can sleep on? I am worried that it might melt whilst boiling as the urn is way too hot to touch when boiling.
> I don't have excel which is a real PITA. I would love to use the spreadsheet but can't unfortunately.
> Looks as though you have spent quite some time on the project mate, top effort.



I use one of the ones you'd sleep on - a decent thick one that is actually half decent to sleep on. I wrap an old towel around the urn and then put the sleeping mat around that. I forgot the towel once and the mat melted slightly but I noticed before the full boil so not a disaster. With the towel between the urn and the mat it's always been fine.

With this setup I get a fairly vigorous boil - I don't think you'd need it any more aggressive.


----------



## Crusty

edschache said:


> I use one of the ones you'd sleep on - a decent thick one that is actually half decent to sleep on. I wrap an old towel around the urn and then put the sleeping mat around that. I forgot the towel once and the mat melted slightly but I noticed before the full boil so not a disaster. With the towel between the urn and the mat it's always been fine.
> 
> With this setup I get a fairly vigorous boil - I don't think you'd need it any more aggressive.



Cheers mate.
I was pretty certain that rubber mat would melt to the urn for sure. I might just look at wrapping the urn just for the sacc rest & whip it off for the boil. I tested the urn with 33lt of water & the boil was a gentle rolling boil & good enough I think. I lost 3lt to the boil so I think the boil vigor is about right.


----------



## Bribie G

Hi Crusty
Just did a double batch (second one boiling now) - No sparge - something I forgot to mention, get a pair of rubber gloves from Aldi and give the bag a really good squeeze, you'll get an extra litre out of it.


----------



## Crusty

Bribie G said:


> Hi Crusty
> Just did a double batch (second one boiling now) - No sparge - something I forgot to mention, get a pair of rubber gloves from Aldi and give the bag a really good squeeze, you'll get an extra litre out of it.



Will do Bribie
Heading to Grafton on Thursday so will drop in to Aldi
Anything special I should be looking for with skyhooks/pulleys? Maximum weights etc.


----------



## eviljesus

Excellent. Sounds like i've done alright then by the sounds of everything.

a pair of rubber gloves will help. I was trying to squeeze the bag/grab hop bag for additions and it was pretty ******* hot. I didnt find a skyhook necessary for a normal batch. That said, i picked it up. Let it drain for about a minute and then put it in an old fermenter and sparged in there. Bribie, do you sparge, if so, what is your process so the brew doesnt end up thin? or did i just mess it up?

Crusty, my urn had absolutely no issues getting to the boil without any mat/etc around it. Sure it could of been faster, but it wasnt a ridiculous wait.


----------



## Crusty

I assume most people are using hop bags to reduce final trub etc but is it ok just to toss pellets in?
Not too sure if it's a good idea getting too much hops into the cube if no chilling.


----------



## Bribie G

Pellets aint pellets. For example yesterday I did an American Wheat on 18g of Simcoe, single addition. Plenty bitter. And I tossed the pellets straight in. 

However if using a lower AA hop and maybe up to 120g in a brew such as a Pommy IPA with mobs of Fuggles, Challenger, Styrians then throwing the pellets in can produce a lot of green jelly swamp slop at the end, and rob your wort volume. 

I use a CraftBrewer grain bag and peg it round the top of the urn to give the hops a little swimming pool. It retains nearly all the hop sludge very well and the hop material gets a good boil as the steam bubbles are forced up through it, nowhere else to go. The bag tends to billow up, you can chuck a few SS kitchen spoons it to weigh it down. A MUST for hop flowers. 







Edit: not the CB BIAB bag, its the two foot X two foot one on the old scale, about $8 - I think it's also the same as a paint straining bag from a deco shop (You love those deco shops don't you Crusty    )


----------



## Wimmig

When doing BIAB i alwayes hoisted the bag up with a skyhook and left it there for a good hour or so while the urn ramped right up. At this time, even squeezing it gave little output. 

As for the hop bag, i used one to reduce clean times and trub / rubbish. Would do again.


----------



## Crusty

Bribie G said:


> Pellets aint pellets. For example yesterday I did an American Wheat on 18g of Simcoe, single addition. Plenty bitter. And I tossed the pellets straight in.
> 
> However if using a lower AA hop and maybe up to 120g in a brew such as a Pommy IPA with mobs of Fuggles, Challenger, Styrians then throwing the pellets in can produce a lot of green jelly swamp slop at the end, and rob your wort volume.
> 
> I use a CraftBrewer grain bag and peg it round the top of the urn to give the hops a little swimming pool. It retains nearly all the hop sludge very well and the hop material gets a good boil as the steam bubbles are forced up through it, nowhere else to go. The bag tends to billow up, you can chuck a few SS kitchen spoons it to weigh it down. A MUST for hop flowers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: not the CB BIAB bag, its the two foot X two foot one on the old scale, about $8 - I think it's also the same as a paint straining bag from a deco shop (You love those deco shops don't you Crusty    )



I do love deco shops, just not the useless ones around here. I ended up getting a paint stirrer like yours from these guys. 620mm long & the mash paddle is 130mm wide. $8.95 for the stirrer & $12.00 for postage, bloody useless local paint shop :angry: 
I did buy this hop bag from Ross but when it turned up I thought I got the wrong one. I could get 10kg of hops in that thing. Sounds like it's what you are using so all good.


----------



## Bribie G

Yup that's the bag, I've got two - you are right on the money


----------



## Samuel Adams

How much grain can these 40L urns handle ?
I understand a 9% RIS is out of the question but would I be able to do a 7% IPA at all ?


----------



## Crusty

Samuel Adams said:


> How much grain can these 40L urns handle ?
> I understand a 9% RIS is out of the question but would I be able to do a 7% IPA at all ?



A 9% beer is quite doable in a 40lt urn but you won't be doing a 23lt batch of beer, more like 15lt or maybe a tad more.
My biggest beer is a Bierre de garde & is 23lt @6.29%, 1.064, 80% efficiency. This gives me a total mash volume of 38.9lt so you wouldn't want to go too much more than that. You could also look at maxi BIAB but almost every beer I do is in the 4-6% range & that suits me & my equipment.


----------



## Samuel Adams

Crusty said:


> A 9% beer is quite doable in a 40lt urn but you won't be doing a 23lt batch of beer, more like 15lt or maybe a tad more.
> My biggest beer is a Bierre de garde & is 23lt @6.29%, 1.064, 80% efficiency. This gives me a total mash volume of 38.9lt so you wouldn't want to go too much more than that. You could also look at maxi BIAB but almost every beer I do is in the 4-6% range & that suits me & my equipment.



Cheers Crusty !
Almost sold on the urn just looking into other options first


----------



## Bribie G

You can do a full sized 9% ABV batch in an urn provided you are prepared to do a genuine substantial sparge on the side and return those runnings to the urn. Then possibly but not necessarily do a longer boil to concentrate the wort back to the level you would normally get for a full batch. 

All it takes is a bucket such as a Bunnings handi pail or a $8 20L laundry bowl.

I haven't done the exact calcs on the method as I've only done it a couple of times. However once you have done a few brews you will know where the initial wort level should be to yield a cube full, and mark it on your sight tube.

I have a couple of marks for 60 min boil and 90 min boil. 

Just keep sparging and adding back into the urn till you are at your chosen mark, and if the OG of the runnings is still above 1018 keep on and add to urn and see where you end up.


----------



## Crusty

Samuel Adams said:


> Cheers Crusty !
> Almost sold on the urn just looking into other options first



If you decide on the urn, go for the exposed element. It was suggested to me to go that way & I'm glad I did.
A few guys have had a bit of trouble with the concealed element urn switching on & off during the boil & it appears to be less of a problem with the exposed element. A recipe containing protein rests may cause the exposed element to do the same but I don't do protein rests anymore. I find that it really plays havoc with head retention in my beers & these days we are using highly modified malts & I don't think they are necessary. Of course that's purely my opinion & I'm sure others will contest that.
Cheers


----------



## Samuel Adams

Thanks Bribie, good to know my only restriction is my own effort !

Funnily enough Crusty I'm looking at a concealed element urn, I have read a few people having no issues with a rolling boil out of them.


----------



## Crusty

Samuel Adams said:


> Thanks Bribie, good to know my only restriction is my own effort !
> 
> Funnily enough Crusty I'm looking at a concealed element urn, I have read a few people having no issues with a rolling boil out of them.



I think the exposed element will boil a bit more vigorously. I get a nice rolling boil from my exposed element, no insulation & inline with my calculated boil off loss, around 10%. I am more than happy with my urn. Brew days are so enjoyable & clean up is a piece of cake. I went from a 3V set up to using an urn & it's one of the best decisions I've made, it's just too easy.


----------



## lukiferj

Great tutorial BribieG. I have read it through it (and the comments) quite a few times. After around 20 extract brews this year I am picking up my exposed element crown urn tomorrow. Can't wait to do my first AG brew.


----------



## Bribie G

Welcome to the dark side - The Urn BIAB "system" is fairly bulletproof. Most gripes are about raising and draining the bag, a skyhook is probably the best piece of kit you can get and if you can set up a double pulley system (I did my new one with bits from the hardware store) even your pet hamster could hoist the bag for you. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Puv

Thanks for the tutorial, looks interesting and I think this is a formula that could see me giving it a go. I actually have an urn at home (see pics) that was / has been used for general tea / coffee duties over the years. Do you think it would be a possibility to use? I know it's only 20L but that might be a blessing to get me started and making AG with small batches for trial and error.

If this is suitable, I will go about giving it a nice clean up and ensure its santised throughly.

Plenty more for me to read and investigate as well as sort out a recipe but my first brew could be closer than I think.


----------



## Bribie G

To clean the urn I'd first descale it using either a commercial "de scaler" or initially try a couple of tubs of supermarket Citric Acid with a couple of electric jugs of boiling water and leave overnight, Then attack the insides with a green scotch brite and you should make headway B) 

If you get onto one of the sub forums such as "Maxi BIAB" where they guys use a 19L pot, you can do the same in an urn and produce a full strength 20L batch by sparging and diluting post-boil. Works ok, just a bit more faffing around but has produced some award winning beers (RdeVjun is the guru here).


----------



## Puv

Thanks for the fast reply.... looks like I will start cleaning


----------



## Truman42

Ive cleaned 2 urns now with a small box of cream of tarter which you can buy from the baking section of any supermarket and filled with water and just switched it on and brought it to the boil. Let it boil for a good 10 minutes or so and it cleaned them up really well.

YMMV.

I did BIAB in an 18 litre urn and produced many good beers. When you pull out your bag at mash out dun k it in a bucket of hot water and top up the bucket until its almost full of water then stir the grains every so often for about 15 minutes. Meanwhile your bringing your wort up to the boil. 
then pull the bag and pour this into the urn and your volumes should come up almost back to the top of the urn. You can do the same again if you like but hold off starting the boil until you have. This way you start out with a full volume boil and so have more to bottle. If you dont dunk sparge you might only end up with 10 litres or less. As Bribie said look up MAXIBIAB, it explains how to do it.


----------



## Bribie G

Citric Acid, Tartaric Acid, battery acid   Loves to attack that scale.


----------



## wood88

this is prob a stupid question but when you doing your boil after the mash, do you leave the lid on or not?
Also I'm using a birko is it best to just leave it on high?

Thanks


----------



## technobabble66

Generally leave the lid on until it starts to boil (watch it as it gets close - v easy for it to suddenly boil over). Helps it reach boiling point faster. Then take the lid off & leave it off (allows DMS to be boiled off out of the wort). 

Probably best to leave it on the highest setting to get it to boil, then it depends on your setup - whatever setting is required to maintain a "rolling boil."


----------



## Bribie G

Birko does an awesome boil, the only time I put the lid on my Crownie is right at the end when I deliberately pop it on and stand at the wall with my finger on the power switch until the steam starts to come out of the vents, then switch it off before it does its impersonation of Vesuvius.

Then the headspace is sterile and I can leave it for 20 minutes for the trub to settle, then run it into the no chill cube.

If you leave the lid on while boiling, invest in a good mop to clean up the mess B)


----------



## geneabovill

I've got a 40l urn and PID system (thanks Pratty). Depending on yer locality, I'm happy to have you round next brewday to do all the heavy - I mean watch. 

I'm in Newcastle, NSW.


----------



## Bribie G

I'm at Old Bar, planning a run down to Newcastle before Xmas, we'll have to keep in touch. :super:


----------



## BottloBill

Hey genesbovill, where bouts in Newcastle are you as I would love to catch up for a practical lesson???


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken

Just got my first ever AG brew in the cube and have to say thanks to Bribie G and his tutorial for the inspiration (after 120-odd K&K/extract/partials etc).

I went with a pretty simple recipe for my first attempt: 95% pale ale malt and 5% crystal, hop additions all Cascade (~35IBU).
Both my FVs are currently in use...but I can't wait to get it into the bottle (and my belly).

Edit: grammar


----------



## Bribie G

Welcome to the dark side, Ken :beerbang:

Bill I believe genesbovill is Northside or whatever you'd call that in Newcastle, on the way out towards Port Stephens as opposed to down the coast - usually only takes me about 90 mins to hit Heatherbrae on the way down, so if you're up for a run I'm more than happy to put on a bru day.


----------



## TheBlackMini

Hi all,

I'm to assume these aren't good?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121243690944?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## Bribie G

At 2000w it could be a bit underpowered for a good boil, but at the end of the day you would only be down $100 if the unit fails. I like the size.


----------



## TheBlackMini

Yeah the size is what got me. Do you think it would be hard to change the element? Would it be worth the effort?


----------



## Bribie G

sorry missed your post.

I'm no electrician but if it's out of China I guess it could be a custom element for that model and not equivalent to anything in the general trade.

However you can get a hand held immersion heater (I use mine all the time for extra grunt) and whilst pricey, would be a good tool to have in the brewery whatever system you go to.


----------



## MastersBrewery

They do make replacements for the crown, Qldkev, uses one he installed into a pot, check his site for details. The element is 2400 watt, and very well maybe a bolt in option.

ED: Link to element http://www.tobins.com.au/html/ClassHTML/175.htm

ED2: Cheaper from crown them selves http://www.crownindustries.com.au/a/Tech-Support


----------



## BottloBill

Bribie G said:


> Welcome to the dark side, Ken :beerbang:
> 
> Bill I believe genesbovill is Northside or whatever you'd call that in Newcastle, on the way out towards Port Stephens as opposed to down the coast - usually only takes me about 90 mins to hit Heatherbrae on the way down, so if you're up for a run I'm more than happy to put on a bru day.


How far are you away from Newy champ? As soon as I get my license back around the 6th of Feb I could always do a run to your shack for a demo


----------



## BottloBill

BottloBill said:


> How far are you away from Newy champ? As soon as I get my license back around the 6th of Feb I could always do a run to your shack for a demo


edit: sorry didn't read that bit about 90mins


----------



## davedoran

Bribie G said:


> A copy of the spreadsheet would be great. Water volume is the one 'wobbly' factor I have come across with BIAB using a 40 L urn, as it's a full volume method. For example using a 3.5 k grain bill for a mild leaves you, after hoisting and squeezing, with far more wort pre-boil than a 6k bill for an American Amber and like you I've resorted to sparge in a bucket etc to build up the volume so, after a 90 min boil it will fill a Willow cube. Also it's not just a straight "x kg of grain will absorb y kilos of water so work it out stupid" - I often use a fair whack of adjuncts and find that, say 4 k of grain plus a kilo of rice ends up giving you more pre boil wort than 5 k of straight grain - the rice (or maize) seems to mostly disappear into soluble sugars.



Hey Bribie. Hopefully this isn't too cheeky but did you notice a rule to follow when working out volume in the urn. I.e say 10mm to every litre for example. 

Taken inspiration from this thread I've bought myself a 40l birko today and looking to go all grain within a few weeks. All giddy with excitement. 
Giddy up.


----------



## Black Devil Dog

dave doran said:


> All giddy with excitement.


With good reason. You won't regret it Dave.


There was some discussion a little while ago about measuring volumes here.


----------



## lukiferj

I just used a measuring jug to make 5 litre nikko marks on the sightglass. Once you get your measurements sorted, makes getting water ready so much quicker.


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken

Kumamoto_Ken said:


> Just got my first ever AG brew in the cube and have to say thanks to Bribie G and his tutorial for the inspiration (after 120-odd K&K/extract/partials etc).
> 
> I went with a pretty simple recipe for my first attempt: 95% pale ale malt and 5% crystal, hop additions all Cascade (~35IBU).
> Both my FVs are currently in use...but I can't wait to get it into the bottle (and my belly).
> 
> Edit: grammar


An update

It went into a FV on the 19th of Jan.
Spent two weeks in the fermentation fridge at about 17C (BRY-97).
Bottled 2nd of Feb.
Couldn't help myself and tasted it today after 6 days in the bottle...cloudy as, but rapt with the outcome on my first AG brew.


----------



## Mattwa

Did my first AG brew in a 40L crown urn yesterday. A big thanks to Bribie G for the instructions and the confidence to give it a go. 

The very simple Maiden brew is in cube and will going into the FV in 2 weeks!


----------



## lukiferj

Mattwa said:


> Did my first AG brew in a 40L crown urn yesterday. A big thanks to Bribie G for the instructions and the confidence to give it a go.
> 
> The very simple Maiden brew is in cube and will going into the FV in 2 weeks!


 2 weeks? Get it in the fv asap. Will blow your mind  Seriously though, nice one. It's actually not that hard to make really good ag beer.


----------



## Mattwa

lukiferj said:


> 2 weeks? Get it in the fv asap. Will blow your mind  Seriously though, nice one. It's actually not that hard to make really good ag beer.


Haha yeah I can't fit it in with the two and a half brews already in the fermenting chamber. I wasn't planning to start AG this soon, but the wife went away unexpectedly for the weekend, and you know what they say about idle hands!


----------



## lukiferj

Gotta take your opportunities when they come up!


----------



## Mattwa

Exactly!


----------



## HBHB

No turning back now you blokes. Welcome to AG.

Martin


----------



## Pogierob

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread(wasn't going to read all 300ish posts) 

You can buy an upgraded "cut off switch" from crown that will allow a
Rolling boil and still protect your urn from overheating the element. 

I believe it is around $15 now 
I got mine last year for $7 so I guess they are onto us brew folk.


----------



## Mattwa

Do you have a link by any chance Rob?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pogierob

http://www.crownindustries.com.au/a/Tech-Support

There is a PDF at the bottom with spare parts listed. 

I found it easier to just ring and have a chat.


----------



## Pogierob

Here is a pic of the element I blew when I bypassed the wiring instead of upgrading the switch. 

Lesson learnt. 

To replace the switch simply undo the cover plate on the bottom of the urn and then pop off the two connectors, remove the switch by unscrewing the little nut and replace plug wiring back on and you are done.


----------



## Mattwa

Just ordered the replacement boil dry cut-out switch that takes the cut-out to 150C.

Spoke to Graham at Crown who was very helpful and very enthusiastic about using the urn for homebrew. They are very aware of homebrewers using their equipment and are happy to support it which is great to hear.

The part was U-6205-150 and as per the pricelist Rob linked to was $15.35 + GST with $6.60 postage.


----------



## indica86

So, I need 40L urn + bag (grain and maybe hop sock?) + hose + no-chill cube and I'm good to go?


----------



## Pogierob

Pretty much.


----------



## indica86

Done, first brew yesterday. So good.


----------



## H0U5ECAT

Realistically, if one cant get his hands on a 40ltr urn, what is a good size to get?
How much Wort would a 20ltr pot turn out?


----------



## hathro

40ltr would be the minimum. With 20ltr you're looking at 12L of wort if you're lucky, then factor in your losses to trub. Hardly makes it worthwhile. You will have more wort if you mash in a mash tun and use the 20L as a boil pot.


----------



## H0U5ECAT

so really, a little pointless.
If you go in for BIAB, a 40 ltr + would be the way?

Looking on Youtube, I've come across Big Nath's setup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ3gsx-Lx9Y
now, what I want to know, is why is there a recirculating pump and a thermocoupler?

Obviously a reason.


----------



## pedleyr

Look up "Maxi BIAB" - people have managed to get 21 odd litres of wort with a 19 litre pot by brewing high gravity and diluting. It's definitely worth a look. 

Alternatively just brew half sized batches - that'd what I did to get started while I got equipment together for full size batches.


----------



## hathro

40L Buffalo urns are <$200 new here: http://www.nisbets.com.au/Buffalo-Manual-Fill-Water-Boiler-40Ltr/CC193-A/ProductDetail.raction

Use the code WELCOME10 to get $10 off.

Check this thread to make it an unstopable beast: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78765-solved-brand-new-buffalo-urn-wont-reach-rolling-boil/page-2#entry1172939


----------



## Bribie G

They have a good rep on the UK forums, if my Crownie ever karks it I'd consider getting one.


----------



## SBOB

so planning to make the venture into AG with a Birko and BIAB w/ no chill but the various spreadsheets and recipes have me a bit confused regarding a basic recipe 

Can anyone link me to a basic pale ale recipe that is pretty much ideal for a copy to a BIAB in an urn with no-chill?
Bit confused regarding water quantity/grain bill etc


----------



## anthonyUK

In a 40l Buffalo I start with 35l which is about 1" below the MAX line.
Using a 4-5kg grain bill this gives me 23-24l into the FV with no further water additions e.g. no sparging.

I have some BIAB recipes on beersmith, some original and some modified - http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewuser/27877/anthonyuk


----------



## Bribie G

That would be about right, with a Crown urn I put in around 33L that ends up with around 24L after a typical one hour boil.

A typical recipe for those volumes would be around 5 kg of grains to give about 5.2% abv.


----------



## SBOB

Thanks... so if I took something like the well renowned 'Dr Smurtos Golden Ale' recipe, using Brewmate and selecting BIAB/cold chill and adjusting hops schedule for ~20 minute change due to no chill I get the following... Can someone run their eye over it and tell me if its right/wrong/wayoff? Shows about 5kg grain, and starting water amount ~33L and about 23L at the end. These are just using standard 'Brewmate' estimates so not sure if they 'fit' an urn characteristics..

*Recipe*
Dr Smurto's Golden Ale
American Pale Ale
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.261
Total Hops (g): 67.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 10.6 (EBC): 20.9
Bitterness (IBU): 34.7 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
2.406 kg Pale Ale Malt (56.47%)
0.802 kg Caramalt (18.82%)
0.802 kg Wheat Malt (18.82%)
0.251 kg Caramunich I (5.88%)
Hop Bill
----------------
22.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
15.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
15.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop) (0.8 g/L)
15.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop) (0.8 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
Single step Infusion at 66°C for 75 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with Safale US-05

Recipe Generated with BrewMate

*Brew Day*

Dr Smurto's Golden Ale
American Pale Ale
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Total Water Required (L): 32.89
Mash
---------------
Total Grain (kg): 4.899
Grain Temp (°C): 25.0
Strike Water (L): 32.89
Grain Absorbtion (L/Kg): 0.60
Water / Grain Ratio (L/Kg): 6.71
Desired Mash Temp (°C): 66.0
Strike Water Temp (°C): 68.4
Total Mash Volume (L): 37.79
Boil
----------------
Wort Volume before Boil (L): 30.0
SG before Boil: 1.047 (°P): 11.7
Boil Length (Minutes): 60.0
% Evaporation per Hour (5-15%): 10.0
Wort Volume after Boil (L): 27.0
SG after Boil: 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Losses to Trub and Chiller: 3.0
Final Volume (L): 24.0
After Cooling (4% loss): 23.0


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Are you no-chilling?

Brewmate is fine for urn characteristics, so long as the urn has the volume necessary to contain the mash.

If this is your first beer, 75% efficiency might be a little ambitious though. Better off lowering that (either to produce less wort, or lower gravity wort) to 65% and then increasing it to your real world efficiency once you get a more consistent figure for that.


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## SBOB

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Are you no-chilling?
> 
> Brewmate is fine for urn characteristics, so long as the urn has the volume necessary to contain the mash.
> 
> If this is your first beer, 75% efficiency might be a little ambitious though. Better off lowering that (either to produce less wort, or lower gravity wort) to 65% and then increasing it to your real world efficiency once you get a more consistent figure for that.


planning on no-chilling, which is why i moved the hop schedule up ~20 minutes and moved the last two to being dry hop additions.. This kept Brewmate's calculated IBU about the same..

So dropping the efficiency % will either tell me to 'put less water in' for same OG at end of brew or 'keep water the same' and OG (and resulting ABV) will be lower?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Probably bring the early addition to 30 minutes and cube hop the rest. It's what I've been doing and there's a fairly decent topic on cube hopping, with the master hopper (Yob) there with the anecdotes and non-scientific evidence of how to go about it (but it works!).

Dropping the efficiency in brewmate will give you a lower OG figure. Do this, and then just lock ingredients (button on left) and adjust down the volume until the figures are where you want them to be.

If you want to increase your ingredients to the original volume you wanted, just unlock the ingredients and put in the volume you'd like and then it'll adjust up the ingredients.


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## davedoran

Anyone use the tea strainer on the crown urns here. 
I imagine its too small and not strong enough for the grain but a pricey hop spider i suppose.


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## Forever Wort

Looks good but it seems to only sit at a high level on the urn. In other words it may not reach down low enough to be submerged in only 24l.


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## Bribie G

I saw that when I was in at CraftBrewer and came to the same conclusion as Forever Wort.

Perfect for ladies bingo nights in the church hall


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## leighaus

im in the the study stage of moving to BIAB. Im definitely going electric... 

Ive come to the conclusion of either getting a buffalo and hoping its good,

or a:

BCF crabpot 38L $75
5 star distilling 2400W shrouded element $90
and STC1000 25$..

then just etch mark the inside of the pot for litre markings. I think that would see me into the BIAB territory.. Is there anything i'm missing asides from some swiss voile ?


What do people recommend is the best cheapest way to get going thats not going to be dead in 3 brews


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## mrsupraboy

Make Ur own but I would go at least a 50 L pot


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## Forever Wort

I am an advocate of the Crown Urn. Sensational piece of equipment. Not a single drama since I bought mine a few months ago.


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## panzerd18

I am seriously considering a Crown urn with concealed element but one negative I have heard is it cannot sustain a boil due to some engineered protection.


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## HBHB

dave doran said:


> Anyone use the tea strainer on the crown urns here.
> 
> I imagine its too small and not strong enough for the grain but a pricey hop spider i suppose.



No good for hop additions. Have tried one. The strainer isn't long enough to reach right down into the boil and the mesh is way too large. After 3 minutes all of the hops are in the boil.



panzerd18 said:


> I am seriously considering a Crown urn with concealed element but one negative I have heard is it cannot sustain a boil due to some engineered protection.


There's nothing wrong with the Crown urn. Several months ago, the constant boil temp was elevated and that negated any need to disable the boil dry protection and thermostat control.

Boil is vigorous enough to do full sized boils without any tweaks.

IMHO, Given they're an Australian company doing a great product at a reasonable price with outstanding warranty, i think they're a better option than some of the lesser units from OS.


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## indica86

+1 for what Martin stated. I bought one from him and it is great, gets a decent rolling boil going without issue.
I have easily made 20 litre 8% IPAs in mine.


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## Drewski

panzerd18 said:


> I am seriously considering a Crown urn with concealed element but one negative I have heard is it cannot sustain a boil due to some engineered protection.


I got one from grain and grape maybe two months ago, it boils constantly with no problems at all. I asked about this when i purchased due to comments on here and was told they had been changed by crown to remedy this. So unless you get old stock should be all good.


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## tj2204

Thanks Bribie G. 

Did my first AG & first BIAB last night. It actually seemed easier than a full extract with steeping grains , getting the boiling wort out of the kitchen where there are dogs and babies running around was a huge bonus too.

A big thank you to everyone on AHB for sharing all your knowledge and making things easier for newbies like me.

Cheers.


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## Bribie G

Welcome to the dark side. Even after nearly 7 years of BIAB in urn I still find myself wondering if I've missed something out in the middle of a brew session, because it can't be this quick and easy. 
But it is.


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## Aydos

Bribie G was the reason I got into all grain and I still have my biab rig in use to this day.


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## mrwoody1985

RdeVjun said:


> Dunno if that's a compliment or not??!! :lol: But Thirsty, I'm seriously blushing and there's no need for that!! Buggered if I can find the post either... I guess its about time to pop a link in the sig block. When I find it... maybe this one?
> 
> Anyway, NickJD's the guy for small stock BIAB batches although today he's upping the ante with a high- gravity boil. I've basically been doing what he's shown us this evening, and as I've been doing it for a while now, can safely say the smaller vessel need not be an impediment to filling a fermenter. 3/4 fill the vessel with water, mash whatever the grain bill is (if there's not enough room then reduce water volume), lift & drain, dunk sparge+mashout with enough to fill the vessel. Redunk with a few more litres aiming for a similar mashout temp, add this to top up the vessel during the boil. Should get high- 70s efficiency, if not better. Dilute at pitching, no matter how you chill, although I've heard that dilution after fermentation might be worth a whirl too, some might consider that sacrilege though.
> Additional Water Volume = Actual SG / Target SG * Actual Volume - Actual Volume
> (A fairly rough calc, Nb. SG 1.045 expressed as 45, 1.072 as 72 etc.)
> 
> Again, I'd have to second what Thirsty and others say, that the sort of farting about I go through for this process is not for novice BIABers, please do the no- sparge version until familiar with the equipment. After that, everything should become fairly obvious and things like sparging and dilution should be a simple enough process.
> 
> Edit: Spleeing.


hi guys and girls, this is my 1st post here, My question is can i BIAB or AG to a higher percentage of alcohol to store in the 15ltr food grade bottles? the reason i ask is because i am rapidly acquiring all the gear to do AG for the 1st time ever.. im still very new to brewing and would like to go straight to AG. the smaller but stronger batches is because i today got a 30l urn for BIAB and after much research i find that it will not be sufficient to give me a 19l final volume (for my kegs) can i get away with a 15l batch and dilute before ferment as you do when buying AG in 15l tubs at HB shops? Now i think this quoted comment states that i can, but i would need to get my recipe and do it as per recipe minus 5L of final water volume, is that correct? any help is great.. ive been reading this forum for 3 nights now, wow what alot of knowledge you guys have. i feel like im learning alot. if anybody can point me in the direction of a recipe i can take to the HB shop and get the ingrediants to perform this monuver thatd also be great. thank you


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## RdeVjun

Yep, if I've understood your post correctly, you sure can.
One way to do this is as a simple 'full volume' (well, 'full urn' really) BIAB with dilution at ferment- that seems to be where you are headed.
Alternatively, start with the entire grain bill in the urn, full to the brim as above, reserve the water that won't fit for a sparge step. Then after the initial lauter that additional sparge liquor should get your volume and SG there. I do this regularly in a 36L kettle, usually get a 19L cornie and half a dozen PET bottles of product.

Tip: Suggest also to be cautious when adding the grain to the urn, aka' dough in', make sure you have enough space for it, otherwise it may overflow. I set aside the water in a 19 stockpot, reserving some which is used for the sparge.


What a blast from the past this thread is!!


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## mrwoody1985

I think im just going to go for it, from what i can understand it "might" work if i do the following with 5kg of grain.
1. Heat 20l of water up to 71deg and add it to cooler (cooler will be pre heated)
2.add grain stiring vigorously. Checking temp gets to 66deg (adjusting accordingly) & let it rest for 60-90 mins watching temp.
3.have sparge water ready at 80deg and once my strike/mash is back in kettle heating up for boil, add 10ltrs of 80deg water into cooler with grain bag in there and stir for 10 mins, adding this to the mash in kettle one the 10 mins is finished.
4. Start a 60min timer once rolling boil is achieved and start hop additions accordingly, and hald a whirlfloc at 10 mins to go.
5. Cool is as fast as possible with my immersion chiller to 22deg
6.add to fermenter and pitch yeast? Obviously sterilization is everything post boil.

Is this going to work? I dont know if im calling the steps or products the right names (strike/sparge etc) but i hope you understand?


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## Bribie G

*Note:*
*Anyone coming across this thread, the "tutorial" has been rewritten. *
*The more up to date version is now in the All Grain Sub Forum. *

Using a 40L Electric Urn for BIAB - a guide.


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