# New Australian Style - Experiment Invite/Discussion



## Sippa (21/7/14)

Ok people, without looking to much into this (therefore I have don't know if this has really been looked at on this forum), as of yet, I think there are not enough beer styles attributed to great Aussie ingenuity. Sure we have APA, Bitter and Australian Lager but I think these styles are no longer a good representation of our developing palate with what appears to be a big surge towards American developed styles of late.

To accommodate our evolving taste I would challenge you to discuss or better yet create some beers that are unique to our geological location. Sure we can get any style of hop, yeast and grains here but what can we create using what is produced in Australia? And what can we create if we take modern re-refrigeration out of the equation?

Maybe we could broaden our thinking to Australasian instead of solely Australian in terms of available resources. 

I'd be interested to hear what you all think.


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## bradsbrew (21/7/14)

The government has now banned fridges ?


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

As far as I'm aware traditionally a style has been developed based on what was ingredients and techniques were available at the time to any one populous.


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

bradsbrew said:


> The government has now banned fridges ?


Thinking along the lines of what might be a limiting factor that would steer the development of any one style, ergo maybe a lot of northern brewers only brew in winter because they have no refrigeration capability for fermentation, or maybe they just choose to ferment at what ever ambient temp is and make a beer that works with those temperatures.


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## bradsbrew (21/7/14)

Sippa said:


> Ok people, without looking to much into this (therefore I have don't know if this has really been looked at on this forum), as of yet, I think there are not enough beer styles attributed to great Aussie ingenuity. Sure we have APA, Bitter and Australian Lager but I think these styles are* no longer a good representation of our developing palate *with what appears to be a big surge towards American developed styles of late.
> 
> To accommodate *our evolving taste* I would challenge you to discuss or better yet create some beers that are unique to our geological location. Sure we can get any style of hop, yeast and grains here but what can we create using what is produced in Australia? And what can we create if we take modern re-refrigeration out of the equation?
> 
> ...





Sippa said:


> As far as I'm aware traditionally a style has been developed based on what was ingredients and *techniques were available at the time* to any one populous.


Pretty sure fridges are available at this point.

Plenty of hops now grown in Australia these days, as with grain. I think the biggest limitation would be yeast.


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## bradsbrew (21/7/14)

Sippa said:


> Thinking along the lines of what might be a limiting factor that would steer the development of any one style, ergo maybe a lot of northern brewers only brew in winter because they have no refrigeration capability for fermentation, or maybe they just choose to ferment at what ever ambient temp is and make a beer that works with those temperatures.


I get where your coming from but why take away a component that severely effects the beer. If your talking lets make a beer that may have been created 200 years ago then fair enough. If your saying lets make a beer that reflects modern Australia and its produce then temp control is vital.

Cheers


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## mje1980 (21/7/14)

Just wait a few months, the bjcp seem to make up new styles every few months or so.


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

bradsbrew said:


> I get where your coming from but why take away a component that severely effects the beer. If your talking lets make a beer that may have been created 200 years ago then fair enough. If your saying lets make a beer that reflects modern Australia and its produce then temp control is vital.
> 
> Cheers


I'm saying both those things, create a modern beer or create one that might have been around 200 years ago, I did not intend to limit options I simply suggested what might have been a limiting factor, just an example is all.


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Pretty sure fridges are available at this point.
> 
> Plenty of hops now grown in Australia these days, as with grain. I think the biggest limitation would be yeast.


If you can't think of some way to use what is available, ie coopers, maybe a wild yeast or sour beer might be possible?


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## Spiesy (21/7/14)

If you're going to create one that was around "200 years ago" - you're going to have to be super inventive. 
Western civilisation had only just arrived 

For modern, which I think is a lot more conducive to your cause, you're going to have the luxury of all the hops that are relatively "new" on the scene. We're pretty sweet with grain, but yeah... yeast is going to be the issue. Although it would be pretty cool if someone was able to capture and culture some local wild yeast.


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## Spiesy (21/7/14)

BTW: where did Cooper's initially get their yeast from? Why is it the only Australian yeast?

Anyone know?


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## Bribie G (21/7/14)

Australian strong stout. Heavy on Australian hops and around 6% ABV.

There's virtually nothing like Coopers, Southwark or Sheaf in the British Isles.


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

Sippa said:


> If you can't think of some way to use what is available, ie coopers, maybe a wild yeast or sour beer might be possible?


Being the simple organism yeast is, it easily mutates, so there maybe a wild yeast already floating around your house that makes great beer! and that no one has ever seen before


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## Yob (21/7/14)

Or in my beard..


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## Spiesy (21/7/14)

Yob said:


> Or in my beard..


Yuck! 

I wonder how well that Rogue beer sold - I couldn't buy into it, to be honest.


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## The Judge (21/7/14)

[SIZE=medium]A good place to start might be to create a hop variety that can thrive below the 30th parallel. That would make a fairly unique beer and a very marketable hop.[/SIZE]


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## GrumpyPaul (21/7/14)

Yob said:


> Or in my beard..


Wipe that yeast of your chin Yob.


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## Grott (21/7/14)

Yob said:


> Or in my beard..


or in mine, or a combination of the two


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

Rinse your beards into a starter wort and find out!


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## Spiesy (21/7/14)

Putrino said:


> [SIZE=medium]A good place to start might be to create a hop variety that can thrive below the 30th parallel. That would make a fairly unique beer and a very marketable hop.[/SIZE]


I'm a little confused... this is an Australian Style - we are one of the "lucky" countries than can grow hops.


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## verysupple (21/7/14)

As hinted at in the OP, consumer's tastes evolve over time, and so do the beers brewers produce. A lot of recognised styles evolved as offshoots of existing styles - usually because brewers would push the boundaries of the existing styles and when it became widespread enough it became its own style. American amber ale stemming from American pale ale is a good example.

So bearing that in mind, it seems like people are quite often brewing pale ales that seem similar to an American pale ale but made with Aussie hops like Victoria Secret and Galaxy. Now at the moment these still fit into the American pale ale categoy but as these beers evolve, and perhaps take on a slightly different malt or fermentation character, they may become different enough to make them a separate style. 

But until enough people are actually brewing something that is different enough from a current style yet similar enough to each other, there won't be another Aussie style.

The style guidlines reflect what is being brewed. They don't tell people what to brew.


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## Spiesy (21/7/14)

verysupple said:


> The style guidlines reflect what is being brewed. They don't tell people what to brew.


Yes and no, in my humblest of opinions.
Some people just brew as they like, others try to stick within a styles guidelines.

Agree with the rest of your comments though.


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## Kingy (21/7/14)

Could use an australia lady and make a toi sennhauser opb using Australian grain and hops.


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## verysupple (21/7/14)

Spiesy said:


> Yes and no, in my humblest of opinions.
> Some people just brew as they like, others try to stick within a styles guidelines.
> 
> Agree with the rest of your comments though.


Yeah, as homebrewers a lot of us stick to the style guidelines. But those styles existed before they guidelines were written. It's the people that "brew as they like" that inadvertantly create new styles. It's when enough people all brew something similar (but different to an existing style) that some sort of officiating body (e.g. the BJCP) recognise it as a style.

Imagine you're a commercial brewer. You brew whatever you think will sell. What you put on the label is then influenced by a few factors like which style the beer is closest too, but more importantly, what's going to shift the product. Styles don't really matter to anyone except home brewers.


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## TSMill (21/7/14)

You will need a WilliamsWarn only competition to give the idea any sort of credibility.


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## MastersBrewery (21/7/14)

Spiesy said:


> BTW: where did Cooper's initially get their yeast from? Why is it the only Australian yeast?
> 
> Anyone know?


A bit :icon_offtopic:
But I was thinking about this the other day. The thought popped into my head and I believe it came from my uncle from when he was in Vietnam during the war. He said they used all sorts of wonderful things in their brew, and most common amongst Aussies Vegimite. So I though I might try and culture up the yeast and throw it at a 5L batch of stout.

thoughts?

MB


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## The Judge (21/7/14)

Spiesy said:


> I'm a little confused... this is an Australian Style - we are one of the "lucky" countries than can grow hops.


 Sorry, my point was that if you could get a hop variety to grow below the 30th parallel, then a huge part of the world which currently grows hops (Germany, UK, North America), wouldn't necessarily be able to grow this new variety, thus making it unique. Tropical places like Qld could therefore have their own style of flavour and aroma.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/7/14)

Make sure its on toast.
Nev


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## MastersBrewery (21/7/14)

always have a toast with my stout Nev


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## verysupple (21/7/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> A bit :icon_offtopic:
> But I was thinking about this the other day. The thought popped into my head and I believe it came from my uncle from when he was in Vietnam during the war. He said they used all sorts of wonderful things in their brew, and most common amongst Aussies Vegimite. So I though I might try and culture up the yeast and throw it at a 5L batch of stout.
> 
> thoughts?
> ...


I thought Vegemite had yeast _extract _(cell walls removed). I don't think you can bring it back to life and culture it up. But if you could, that'd be a very Aussie beer.


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## wereprawn (21/7/14)

verysupple said:


> I thought Vegemite had yeast _extract _(cell walls removed). I don't think you can bring it back to life and culture it up. But if you could, that'd be a very Aussie beer.


Is the yeast used to make vegemite Aussie? Unlikely IMO. They would obtain the used lager yeast from large megaswill breweries wouldn't they?


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## mje1980 (21/7/14)

Baby kangaroos in the kettle?, goannas in the mash?


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## verysupple (21/7/14)

wereprawn said:


> Is the yeast used to make vegemite Aussie? Unlikely IMO. They would obtain the used lager yeast from large megaswill breweries wouldn't they?


That's a good point. But if we're taking the yeast origin as the defining factor then Vegemite isn't Aussie either. Try selling that idea. Nobody else will take responsibility for it.


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## verysupple (21/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Baby kangaroos in the kettle?, goannas in the mash?


Let's keep it to the coat of arms; kangaroos and emus - both boiled obviously.


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## Sippa (21/7/14)

Boiling the coat of arms was not the intended direction for the thread. I thought maybe it would rouse some serious thought for experimentation and development of some truly unique brew accredited to Australian home brew swillers.


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## mje1980 (21/7/14)

Why does there need to be another style?


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## spog (21/7/14)

VB with Vegemite,Goanna oil,Koala piss,Kangaroo scrotum and crushed native seeds from Emu shit.
If an immigrant can drink a slab of it and keep it down they get free entry, welcome to Straya mate.


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## dicko (21/7/14)

I can see the need for redefining the style.

There are a lot more Aussie hops available now that do provide a multitude of diversity with flavours.

The OP has a good point IMO.

If we choose to remember back just a little while the famous Smurto's Golden Ale was re defined within the classification from where he entered it into an English Pale Ale from memory.
It could not be classed as an Aussie Pale Ale and survive the scrutiny of the rules within the class guidelines.

So today a person could brew the same recipe with for example a single hop choice of one of the new Australian varieties and if push comes to shove, even use a CPA yeast (or WLP 009) but not comply because "it" doesn't fit the current description....

No wonder some of us never enter competitions. All these rules are made off our shores and for why???????


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## Nizmoose (22/7/14)

I definitely think that some more Australian styles would be great, especially with hops like galaxy now available. One beer that always comes to mind is Stone & Wood Pacific Ale. I'm sure there will be people that disagree but when I looked up it's specs under style was "beyond classification" and I'd have to agree, I don't know what I'd class it as, and that made me a bit happy because it means someone in Australia has created something uniquely Australian in my personal opinion. What would people class Stone & Wood Pacific Ale as? And if nothing what style would you name to put it into?


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## The Judge (22/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> I definitely think that some more Australian styles would be great, especially with hops like galaxy now available. One beer that always comes to mind is Stone & Wood Pacific Ale. I'm sure there will be people that disagree but when I looked up it's specs under style was "beyond classification" and I'd have to agree, I don't know what I'd class it as, and that made me a bit happy because it means someone in Australia has created something uniquely Australian in my personal opinion. What would people class Stone & Wood Pacific Ale as? And if nothing what style would you name to put it into?


Just as the Bavarians drink wheat beer as a breakfast beer, so is the Stone & Wood Pacific Ale the perfect fruity Australian Breakfast Ale.
Wheaty, fruity, and well suited to our sunny mornings imo


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## The Judge (22/7/14)

Actually - side note - a place in Perth called Gordon St Garage has been serving this as the sole beer on tap for a while now, and they're well known for their breakfasts. Perhaps it is already reputed as a good breakfast accompaniment.


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## Sippa (22/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> I definitely think that some more Australian styles would be great, especially with hops like galaxy now available. One beer that always comes to mind is Stone & Wood Pacific Ale. I'm sure there will be people that disagree but when I looked up it's specs under style was "beyond classification" and I'd have to agree, I don't know what I'd class it as, and that made me a bit happy because it means someone in Australia has created something uniquely Australian in my personal opinion. What would people class Stone & Wood Pacific Ale as? And if nothing what style would you name to put it into?


MMMMM.....mmmmmm........ Thats a tasty beverage! lets call it what it is.... a Pacific Ale.

My Bunny Boiler with Galaxy hops is something along the lines of a Pacific Ale, Much better than the Centennial version I did, It will become my house session ale, will try with something other than Amarillo next one.


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## technobabble66 (22/7/14)

Pacific Ale - very light grain bill (/malt flavour) with a strong impact of fruity hops, with a fairly light bittering.

What about:
Saisons - golden, red, brown or black. Malty or Hoppy. Given they are fermented at high temps. Seems an obvious choice for our climate.
Amp'ed up Lagers - red, brown or black lagers, and heavily hopped or malted. We already do the Minimal Flavour versions


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (22/7/14)

Saison seems smart enough.

Don't forget that if you listened to the podcast of the new BJCP guidelines, one of the key things that came out (other than how boring the bloke was to listen to) was that judges especially were too pedantic with styles and that 'good beers' should not be penalised for being not perfectly in style. As a result they opened up the style descriptions a fair bit and said "this is a guideline for judging a comp, not a holy bible of beer styles or of even categories".

What the styles allow for is to penalise faults and flaws, not make a certain hop or grain a flaw, if the end result is a good beer.

He also mentioned that this is really a response to what is being currently brewed. Red IPA/Black IPA are a style now - they never were but they became one. It's a reaction to what's being brewed, not a 'this is what you should be brewing' type scenario.


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## Spiesy (22/7/14)

Don't know... Saison sounds pretty French to me  

Aren't we making up a new style anyway?


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## dicko (22/7/14)

I think that AABC could maybe broaden the horizon when it comes to the Australian Pale Ale Style to include beers like S&W Pacific Pale Ale, Fat Yak (before it was ruined) and many others that are now available.


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## drewstertherooster (22/7/14)

I think Pacific Ale is one we can run with. Light grain bill, pale colour, good head retention. Sessionable, 4-5% abv, maybe you could go even lighter. Hop forward, majority of IBU's gained from late hopping, showcasing fruity characteristics of new Australian hop varieties such as Galaxy, Summer, Ella etc. As a 'Pacific' Ale, maybe NZ and even US (as if they don't get enough of a look in) hops could be used as well, for the same purpose. I used Wai Iti with Galaxy in my Pacific Ale and it complemented the passionfruit with a citrusy quality. Mmm. Maybe you could even add the pear-y flavours from the Coopers yeast?

Uses largely Aussie ingredients to produce a beer that's ideal for enjoying throughout the afternoon on a hot Summer day. How Aussie is that?


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## technobabble66 (22/7/14)

Spiesy said:


> Don't know... Saison sounds pretty French to me
> 
> Aren't we making up a new style anyway?


or belgian, even 

Nah - just say it with an ocker accent and put the word "mate" or "cobber" at the end of it:
"Straya Says-On, mate"

Or if you want to represent our multicultural population you could just try:
"Wog Beer, mate"

...Maybe this could be a new style:
Cobber Ale
Like a copper ale, but Australian.


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## Spiesy (22/7/14)

technobabble66 said:


> or belgian, even


_*Saison* (French, "season," French pronunciation: ​[sɛ.zɔ̃]) is a broadly defined pale ale that in modern versions is generally around 7% abv, highly carbonated, fruity, spicy (sometimes from the addition of spices), and is influenced by Saison Dupont Vieille Provision.[1] As a beer style it originated from beers brewed during the cooler and less active months in farmhouses in Wallonia, the French-speaking region of Belgium, and then stored for drinking by the farm workers during the summer months._

We're kind of both right, I guess.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/7/14)

Warm piss mate !


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## Sippa (22/7/14)

drewstertherooster said:


> I think Pacific Ale is one we can run with. Light grain bill, pale colour, good head retention. Sessionable, 4-5% abv, maybe you could go even lighter. Hop forward, majority of IBU's gained from late hopping, showcasing fruity characteristics of new Australian hop varieties such as Galaxy, Summer, Ella etc. *As a 'Pacific' Ale, maybe NZ and even US *(as if they don't get enough of a look in) hops could be used as well, for the same purpose. I used Wai Iti with Galaxy in my Pacific Ale and it complemented the passionfruit with a citrusy quality. Mmm. Maybe you could even add the pear-y flavours from the Coopers yeast?
> 
> Uses largely Aussie ingredients to produce a beer that's ideal for enjoying throughout the afternoon on a hot Summer day. How Aussie is that?


Lets call it an Australasian Ale then or an Oceanic Ale.

A dark version would be magic too. I was planning hopped up dark beer next so I might shoot for an Australasian influenced one. Galaxy as the bittering with an NZ hop for finishing, fermented with Coopers,


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## mje1980 (22/7/14)

This style is getting broader by the minute


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## sponge (22/7/14)

There'll soon be as many Aus styles as there are now IPA's in the BJCP guidelines.


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## barabool (22/7/14)

I know that most Aboriginal tribes used to make a 'damper' like bread before European colonisation. Would be interesting to see if native grains could be used as a type of specialised grain.
Just do a google search on 'Australian native grains'.
Now that would be unique. Now to find a 'native' hop bush.

Cheers


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## Whiteferret (22/7/14)

There is an Australian native hop bush. Looks nothing like a hop plant so maybe it was used for bittering I have seen it alot in the nurseries in the last few years. Dodenea something.


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## TimT (22/7/14)

_Now to find a 'native' hop bush._

Google 'dodonae viscosae', (the sticky hop bush) or just do a search of this site. It's been mentioned a couple of times here. Not related to good old _humulus lupus_ AKA hops but the taste is apparently similar.


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## pajs (22/7/14)

IIRC, there is a section in one of the Cribb books on Australian native plants about things used in drinks, including for bittering. Maybe the _Useful Wild Plants in Australia_ book? I will investigate further.


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## TimT (22/7/14)

We've lost more than we ever knew we had. Keith Dunstan's book _The Amber Nectar_, ostensibly written to celebrate 100 years of CUB brewing in Australia, is actually something of a backhanded compliment, as it chronicles in a great lot of detail how Carlton bullied and bought out all its competitors and how styles in Australia have changed over the past century.

Essentially, towards the end of the 19th century there were over 300(!) independent breweries in Australia. For many of those early years, ale (rather than lager) was the favoured style - which seems sensible for brewing, considering the insane temperatures in many parts of the country.

Few drinks from that time seem to have remained; perhaps some brews that give an idea of the styles favoured then include Coopers Sparkling and Tooheys Old. (Though not sure if Tooheys Old is actually an ale(?), most of the CUB brews seem to be brewed on lager yeasts).

I often feel uncomfortable regarding BJCP guidelines, since they seem to be defined for the needs of competition, rather than as a way of recording traditional or popular styles. Competitions help you to refine your brews, of course, but to me the most important way to improve your brewing is to have a deep and intimate understanding of traditional styles and why they were brewed the way they were. If you know why other styles came into being, that gives you a good indication where and how you can make your own styles in the future.


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## Toper (22/7/14)

wereprawn said:


> Is the yeast used to make vegemite Aussie? Unlikely IMO. They would obtain the used lager yeast from large megaswill breweries wouldn't they?


Yep,I worked for the company that makes the stuff several years ago.The yeast extract came from Tooheys in Sydney,and it's 'cooked' for filling,around 80C, so nothing useable there.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (22/7/14)

TimT said:


> I often feel uncomfortable regarding BJCP guidelines, since they seem to be defined for the needs of competition, rather than as a way of recording traditional or popular styles. Competitions help you to refine your brews, of course, but to me the most important way to improve your brewing is to have a deep and intimate understanding of traditional styles and why they were brewed the way they were. If you know why other styles came into being, that gives you a good indication where and how you can make your own styles in the future.


The BJCP felt the same, which is why they have historical styles and an attitude of "hey, brew a good beer, and the guidelines are wide enough for it now" with they 2014 revisions.

Certainly reading the pre-amble and listening to what was said at the AHBC by them indicates that their discomfort was a big reason for the revision.


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## dicko (22/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> The BJCP felt the same, which is why they have historical styles and an attitude of "hey, brew a good beer, and the guidelines are wide enough for it now" with they 2014 revisions.
> 
> Certainly reading the pre-amble and listening to what was said at the AHBC by them indicates that their discomfort was a big reason for the revision.


I like and hear what you say LRG but with BJCP they still have a loooonnng way to go to cover Pale Ale styles.

Edit: hear not here


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (22/7/14)

True, but I think they accept that, judging by the comments made.

The joke initially was "are there two categories 1. Black IPA 2. Not a Black IPA".

The BJCP head admits that truth be told, he knows that they're pretty restricted to what they're doing and really reacting to what is already being done. I think reading between the lines, they want to encourage new styles, rather than react to them already being there. And in asking for feedback, he mentioned that realistically only a handful of Aussies hassling the BJCP is what got a new style included, but he goes on to say "but if there's something missed, by all means tell us so we can discuss".

I think the fact that we have S&W PA and it just wouldn't fit into a style but has become the craft brewer's lawnmower beer is a fair indication that the guidelines are flawed.


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## Nizmoose (22/7/14)

Sippa said:


> Lets call it an Australasian Ale then or an Oceanic Ale.
> 
> A dark version would be magic too. I was planning hopped up dark beer next so I might shoot for an Australasian influenced one. Galaxy as the bittering with an NZ hop for finishing, fermented with Coopers,


I'mliking where this is going, I tasted my first attempt at the S&W clone last night and absolutely loved it but both the real thing and my clone tastes nothing like I've really ever had before and I can't really put it in any existing style. I think a style along the lines of an Oceanic or Australiasian Ale (giving NZ hops and such a look in) could defintely work. Something light and fruity, 3.5-5% ABV with Australian or NZ hops and NO US hops (it would really make the style a much more specieal style as opposed to tainting it with overseas hops just because its easier). Sure you could add some american hops and still have a similar end product but I think if you wanted to brew a true Oceanic/Pacific?Australasian Ale the local hops should be stuck to. As the years go on there will be more Aus and NZ hops discovered and that would open up the style somewhat. 

Something like this would be good I think:
*Pacific Ale style guidelines:*


*Vital Statistics*:

OG: 1.030 – 1.045

IBUs: 15 – 35

FG: 1.005 – 1.015

SRM: 3 – 5

ABV: 3.5 – 5%

Australian and New Zealand hops (eg: Galaxy, Victoria, Vic Secret, NZ Cascade, NZ Hallertauer, etc)
Light, sessionable beer with fruity characteristics and mainly late hop additions


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## dicko (23/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> I'mliking where this is going, I tasted my first attempt at the S&W clone last night and absolutely loved it but both the real thing and my clone tastes nothing like I've really ever had before and I can't really put it in any existing style. I think a style along the lines of an Oceanic or Australiasian Ale (giving NZ hops and such a look in) could defintely work. Something light and fruity, 3.5-5% ABV with Australian or NZ hops and NO US hops (it would really make the style a much more specieal style as opposed to tainting it with overseas hops just because its easier). Sure you could add some american hops and still have a similar end product but I think if you wanted to brew a true Oceanic/Pacific?Australasian Ale the local hops should be stuck to. As the years go on there will be more Aus and NZ hops discovered and that would open up the style somewhat.
> 
> Something like this would be good I think:
> *Pacific Ale style guidelines:*
> ...


Your suggestion would be a good start Nizmoose.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Excellent idea Nizmoose.

I reckon you send it up to BJCP - they are asking for feedback on the new guidelines and specifically said that some countries will be under-represented because the BJCP is in American and without an international persepective it does get American-centric views of even non-American beers.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Excellent idea Nizmoose.
> 
> I reckon you send it up to BJCP - they are asking for feedback on the new guidelines and specifically said that some countries will be under-represented because the BJCP is in American and without an international persepective it does get American-centric views of even non-American beers.


Thanks a lot for the encouragement  I'm definitely keen to forward this on to BJCP but before that happens it'd be great if the people here could comment on the guidelines I put up to see if any tweaking should occur? I think it covers a decent enough range in the IBU department but my OG and FG targets were a bit of an estimate so any feedback would be awesome


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> Thanks a lot for the encouragement  I'm definitely keen to forward this on to BJCP but before that happens it'd be great if the people here could comment on the guidelines I put up to see if any tweaking should occur? I think it covers a decent enough range in the IBU department but my OG and FG targets were a bit of an estimate so any feedback would be awesome



I'm of the opinion you want a 4.5% tops beer, so I reckon 1.038-1.048 is a closer OG. Dry FG 1.008-1.002 to encourage warm weather drinkability.

Def agree with late hopping with New World varieties that give typical new world (read: not noble) traits in both flavour and aroma.

Appearance: Very light yellow to off-white colour. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. White head which may not linger, especially in lower bodied varieties.

Flavour: Balanced to slightly hoppy, but not very bitter. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with not a great deal of perceived bitterness. When hoppy, it should not overpower the beer, but leave enough body to retain drinkability. Clean yeast profile if using Ale or Lager yeast, with other yeasts (such as farmhouse, Saison, or wild yeasts) allowed, but their character should be muted and not overpower the hops or malt.

Mouthfeel: High carbonation, but not carbonic bite. Relatively thin, compared to traditional Ales, but not watery. Light malt backs up the hops, but leaves the beer balanced enough towards the hops. Use of wheat malt keeps mouthfeel "fresh", stops it from being too thin but does not add a 'breadiness' typical of German Wheat beers.

Aroma: AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. These need to be noticeable, but not dominant. Punchy fruity aroma, typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, whilst somewhat hoppy is still very much balanced. Whilst the fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is criticial as is a thirsty quenching character. Well attenutated.

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral if an Ale or Lager Yeast (minimal esters) or blended with hop aroma and malt flavour if Wild or Farmhouse variety such as a saison.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate), nor does it become an Aussie lager typical of large commercial breweries. 

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale.

How's that Niz?


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## dicko (23/7/14)

The AABC guidelines for an Aussie Pale Ale is

OG 1035 to 1048

and the IBU's are

25 to 40 IBU

and colour

4 to 7 SRM

For simplicity sake it may pay to stay close to these figures seeing that they already exist.

Personally I think that a max OG of 1050 would be in order but that is only me... 

Apology; I was posting the same time as LRG...... I like his description.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I'm of the opinion you want a 4.5% tops beer, so I reckon 1.038-1.048 is a closer OG. Dry FG 1.008-1.002 to encourage warm weather drinkability.
> 
> Def agree with late hopping with New World varieties that give typical new world (read: not noble) traits in both flavour and aroma.
> 
> ...


Absolutely LOVE this! Perfectly describes the style, The yeast notes and the use of wheat is a really good inclusion too! Looks like this is starting to gain some structure for sure


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## dicko (23/7/14)

I just had a thought...

what happens to the Pale Ale that already exists eg Coopers pale and sparkling?

will this be a new category and the old one remain or should the guidelines reflect both new and old styles?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

New Category.

Something like Australian Pacific Ale, or Australasian White Ale. I dunno about the name, I'll leave it to someone else to think up.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Australian Summer Ale?


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

dicko said:


> I just had a thought...
> 
> what happens to the Pale Ale that already exists eg Coopers pale and sparkling?
> 
> will this be a new category and the old one remain or should the guidelines reflect both new and old styles?


Yeah completely different style. With regards to name I think Australia should be kept out of it purely due to the use of NZ hops. Pacific Ale would work perfectly and so would Oceanic or Australasian but I think pacific has the best ring to it. Summer ale could work although I think it brings itself too close to styles that already have sort of used that as a nickname and implies a light lagery sort of thing as opposed to Pacific Ale. (also it makes me think of XXXX summer bright and makes me shudder  )


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

I lean heavily toward Pacific Ale.

If they wanted to keep the AUNZ theme maybe Australasian Pacific Ale, or ANZ Pacific Ale.

Given you'd want the category to be able to produce beers made with Nelson Sauvin, Kohatu, Wai-iti, Galaxy, Vic Secret - I reckon keeping the AU/NZ thing is important. Another reason could be that the Pacific Ocean does border the US West Coast (which is home of IPA). I'm probably talking myself out of Pacific Ale, but I do like it.

I was thinking as to whether we should put a descriptor saying that S&W pioneered or created a commercial variety which has been heavily replicated and cloned by homebrewers as a favourite.

Australian Pale Ale is the traditional Coopers style beer.


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## Sippa (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> New Category.
> 
> Something like Australian Pacific Ale, or Australasian White Ale. I dunno about the name, I'll leave it to someone else to think up.





Nizmoose said:


> Yeah completely different style. With regards to name I think Australia should be kept out of it purely due to the use of NZ hops. Pacific Ale would work perfectly and so would Oceanic or Australasian but I think pacific has the best ring to it. Summer ale could work although I think it brings itself too close to styles that already have sort of used that as a nickname and implies a light lagery sort of thing as opposed to Pacific Ale. (also it makes me think of XXXX summer bright and makes me shudder  )


I agree a pacific ale does sound good but I think it is too general and not reflective of the specifics in the style so Australasian or Oceanic would be more suiting to the style.

When I brew I generally like a chewier beer more so than a watery thin beer so I would brew between 1012 and 1008 and have a bit heavier fruit and bitterness to it, but that's just me, I like intensity even in my session beers!


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## Sippa (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I lean heavily toward Pacific Ale.
> 
> If they wanted to keep the AUNZ theme maybe Australasian Pacific Ale, or ANZ Pacific Ale.
> 
> ...


If your that bent on using 'Pacific' maybe a 'South Pacific Ale' SPA. 

So much in a name! needs to encompass the style particularly without ambiguity.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Sippa said:


> I agree a pacific ale does sound good but I think it is too general and not reflective of the specifics in the style so Australasian or Oceanic would be more suiting to the style.
> 
> When I brew I generally like a chewier beer more so than a watery thin beer so I would brew between 1012 and 1008 and have a bit heavier fruit and bitterness to it, but that's just me, I like intensity even in my session beers!


I think I must have hit "post" just before you.

With the beer - I think it's more a loose descriptor of Stone & Wood's beer - mainly because it's such a heavily cloned beer. But then extend that and say "could you brew one with Vic Secret or Nelson Sauvin?". Also, there is a hint toward the fact that for our summer - it's bleeding hot and a quaffer is what it's about. 

Don't forget that if you get a Saison at 1.002 - it's got a low FG, but is anything but thin and watery. And even my APA can be 1.009 and have massive body.

Just pontificating.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Sippa said:


> If your that bent on using 'Pacific' maybe a 'South Pacific Ale' SPA.
> 
> So much in a name! needs to encompass the style particularly without ambiguity.


Actually, I really like this.


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## paddy2 (23/7/14)

Pacific is a big ocean. I reckon South Pacific Ale would make it more specific to Aust/NZ.


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## Sippa (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Don't forget that if you get a Saison at 1.002 - it's got a low FG, but is anything but thin and watery. And even my APA can be 1.009 and have massive body.
> 
> Just pontificating.


Forgive me I am still starting out, onto 8 brews now, so much to learn.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

paddy2 said:


> Pacific is a big ocean. I reckon South Pacific Ale would make it more specific to Aust/NZ.


I did go and have a google of the pacific to check and got sad when I saw the list of countries that border it lol, South Pacific is definitely a better representation


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Sippa said:


> Forgive me I am still starting out, onto 8 brews now, so much to learn.


Don't be. I don't believe absolutely strongly that this particular description _should be_ what we put out as a new style (though I'm not agnostic to it either), I just tried to put into words what the Stone & Wood Pacific Ale was and what the clones of it became. I do believe that S&W PA is one of those beers that has has defined a new style and probably agree with it at least being out there as an option.

How it goes from there is anyone's guess. Either way, I'm enjoying the beer conversation and given there are beers on BJCP that homebrewers haven't really even had much say on, it'd be nice to see something out there that's different from the stock-standard "Fosters" perception of Aussie beer.

Oh, and you never stop learning.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Sippa said:


> If your that bent on using 'Pacific' maybe a 'South Pacific Ale' SPA.
> 
> So much in a name! needs to encompass the style particularly without ambiguity.


Sorry for the double post but Ooo just read SPA and that has a nice ring to it!

Also as said before it'd be sooo nice to have a style we can be proud of that doesn't exist anywhere else and that doesn't reinforce that fosters vb sub par beer stigma that is attached to Australian beer. I think this style would be unique as well as having enough freedom to experiment in. S&W currently have the only commercial example but who's to say someone won't come up with some variations that fit within the style? I think it'd be exciting if this went further, something us Aussies could be proud to put our names next to.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (23/7/14)

Sippa said:


> I agree a pacific ale does sound good but I think it is too general and not reflective of the specifics in the style so Australasian or Oceanic would be more suiting to the style.
> 
> When I brew I generally like a chewier beer more so than a watery thin beer so I would brew between 1012 and 1008 and have a bit heavier fruit and bitterness to it, but that's just me, I like intensity even in my session beers!


Looking at maps its appears the the Indian ocean represents more of Australasia than any other.
South Pacific too me doesn't make me think Australian, does sound good though.
Southern Oceans Pale Ale has a ring to it.
Nev


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Not bad Nev, I don't mind that at all.

I suppose the majority of hop growing areas in the Antipodes are Pacific (though you'd argue that the Tasman Sea puts paid to that idea).

Southern Ocean does border part of Tassie and NZ, so it's more indicative.

I think I would be avoiding the use of "Pale" as a word, so it doesn't get classified as a Pale Ale (whether English or American) - it probably bears more resemblance to an American Wheat if anything (though I really dislike thinking of it that way).

Southern Oceans Ale? Southern Ocean Ale? Tasman Sea Ale? But then, S&W are on the Pacific Ocean - so are we going for providence of the beer, or providence of the hops?

I'm confusing myself 

After thinking it through - SPA or Southern Oceans Ale is better.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (23/7/14)

Yes could drop the pale part, (SOA) would cover all bases with out being exclusive.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Not bad Nev, I don't mind that at all.
> 
> I suppose the majority of hop growing areas in the Antipodes are Pacific (though you'd argue that the Tasman Sea puts paid to that idea).
> 
> ...


The P in SPA is for Pacific though not pale  I think Pacific covers both S&W providence as well as hops purely because both Australia (specifically the east coast) and new Zealand both border the pacific, then adding South indicates Oceania as opposed to North Pacific


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/14)

let me see if I understand this, you guys are creating a style guideline based on one commercial beer? Why not just broaden the existing AABA style of Australian Pale Ale to include a broader range of ingredients?


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## Blind Dog (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> let me see if I understand this, you guys are creating a style guideline based on one commercial beer? Why not just broaden the existing AABA style of Australian Pale Ale to include a broader range of ingredients?


Have to say I agree with the above

Difficult to see why we would want to have 2 styles representing Australasian ales that are each essentially based on a single commercial beer.

Plus, IMO, there are much better examples of Ales that either showcase AU/NZ hops or are simply better beers available commercially from AU or NZ craft brewers. Happy to agree to disagree on that one though


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> let me see if I understand this, you guys are creating a style guideline based on one commercial beer? Why not just broaden the existing AABA style of Australian Pale Ale to include a broader range of ingredients?


No based on one commercial beer that fits into no current style nor any broadening of any existing one. On top of that it's a style which is gaining popularity among brewers and is yet to have a name, it simply doesn't fit into the Aussie pale Ale style guidelines, even looking at the wheat content and fruity characters as well as colour it's nowhere near it. It's a style that is undefined and is gaining popularity and by all means may have more commercial representations in the future. Every style starts somewhere and typically styles were based around one brewery in one town in one country let alone one company


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> let me see if I understand this, you guys are creating a style guideline based on one commercial beer? Why not just broaden the existing AABA style of Australian Pale Ale to include a broader range of ingredients?



Because the existing Australian Pale Ale has become Australian Sparkling Ale in the 2014 revisions, and really reflects the coopers style beers with the pear/apple esters and the fairly balanced, but moderate amounts of everything.

This, as I see it, (and again I go back to, I don't necessarily believe in it, just in the idea that something extra be added for AU/NZ) is adding a style that is fairly different and couldn't really be subsumed to CPA/CSA style beers.

Yes, it started as S&W beer, but expanded to say "okay, if we had a lighter colour beer with AU and NZ hops in a similar style to S&W PA, what could it encompass?".

Listening to Gordon Stone of BJCP, the revisions are based on what brewers are brewing already. But he does admit that it's a fairly American centric proposition. Would the Americans do a beer like this? Would they do it with our hops? 

We do know that in Australia we are brewing a S&W clone a lot and this is taking it extra places. I would see possibly something like Ross' Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale being another beer fairly close in style. Or more Vic Secret based beers that are summer quaffers. Almost everyone is probably preparing to brew their summer beers, and most of us have a beer that is within cooee of this sort of style, even if we aren't using galaxy, we are brewing lighter bodied, sessionable ales with local hops for local weather.

Again, I'm just beer-versing


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Lord Raja's description I think aptly describes something that would not fit into current or modified AusPA style guidelines and if someone has created something completely unique that lots of people are brewing why would a new style be created? Why try and broaden an already broad style guideline? It defeats the purpose of a style guideline.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Have to say I agree with the above
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would say also, that a lot of these very very excellent beers are generally American Style Beers with Aussie hops. I think of Bridge Roads Bling IPA or Single Hop IPA with Galaxy or Stella. Excellent beers, but very much AIPA styles.


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> No based on one commercial beer that fits into no current style nor any broadening of any existing one. On top of that it's a style which is gaining popularity among brewers and is yet to have a name, it simply doesn't fit into the Aussie pale Ale style guidelines, even looking at the wheat content and fruity characters as well as colour it's nowhere near it. It's a style that is undefined and is gaining popularity and by all means may have more commercial representations in the future. Every style starts somewhere and typically styles were based around one brewery in one town in one country let alone one company


I disagree with this, to use the term style to me infers more than one example is available and while a style has to start somewhere it can hardly be termed a style until it has quite a few copiers and a larger range of beers to make it a style.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> I disagree with this, to use the term style to me infers more than one example is available and while a style has to start somewhere it can hardly be termed a style until it has quite a few copiers and a larger range of beers to make it a style.


Do the copiers need to be commercial breweries?


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/14)

LRG, then why don't we organize a style for JSGA ot fat yak?


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Do the copiers need to be commercial breweries?


You'd have to get clarification from the BJCP, although to be honest i don't see why they should be involved. Wouldn't this be better taken up with our own body here in Aust. the AABA?


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## Blind Dog (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I would say also, that a lot of these very very excellent beers are generally American Style Beers with Aussie hops. I think of Bridge Roads Bling IPA or Single Hop IPA with Galaxy or Stella. Excellent beers, but very much AIPA styles.


Can't disagree with that per se, but they're not simply SNPA clones with aussie hops; to my taste the malts have been rebalanced in the best examples to account for the Aussie hops


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> LRG, then why don't we organize a style for JSGA ot fat yak?


The way I am seeing it (and again, I'm blowing hot air for the sake of debate), JSGA and Fat Yak would be easily slotted into another style of beer - either AAA (JSGA) or APA (Fat Yak). So when formulating guidelines for AABC, and you want local commercial examples, you pop JSGA under AAA and Fat Yak under APA.

I've been pondering for a while where does S&W PA fit in? To me, it doesn't. But it does get fairly widely cloned by home brewers. The new guidelines are, according to Gordon, more about adjusting guidelines for what Homebrewers are making - which is why Black IPA gets a nod, but you couldn't enter it in its own category before, just as a specialty beer.

On another point, I'll pop the new BJCP guidelines up  - 12B is ASA.


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## Blind Dog (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Do the copiers need to be commercial breweries?


[SIZE=10pt]IMO there needs to be more than 1 commercial example, ideally a number of breweries and a heap of home brewers too[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Maybe I’m talking for myself, but even when I brew an absolute cracker of a beer the next time I brew it I’ll fiddle with the recipe so that by the time I’ve brewed it a few times it’s completely morphed from where it was to what it now is. Just following any recipe thread here would suggest that I’m not alone[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]How then can we define a style, which necessarily has set parameters that are quite narrow, based on what home brewers do when we are by nature tinkerers? I reckon we’ll be complaining about restrictions in no time flat[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]A commercial brewery does not have our freedom and thus it is easier and likely to be more accurate to define a style based on commercially available be[/SIZE]


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Can't disagree with that per se, but they're not simply SNPA clones with aussie hops; to my taste the malts have been rebalanced in the best examples to account for the Aussie hops


Or SN Southern Harvest. To me is still a good solid AIPA with different hops.

I'm enjoying seeing other people's opinions and I'm certainly not taking this too seriously. Just curious, and I had the time to quantify what a S&W PA was if you gave it a BJCP category of its own.

I don't see anything wrong with one beer as being the only example of a style. Vienna Lagers aren't pretty much dead in Vienna, but it gets a nod. And Coopers are really the only brewery that does an "Australian Pale Ale". With the current Aus PA style - there's a very 'one-hop centric' approach with regard to POR. To me there is precedent of 'one beer' styles.


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## vykuza (23/7/14)

I don't mind the flag waving - and having Australian styles is kinda nice - but I think more good will come from having a more generic light ale description - such as the previously mentioned Ross' Summer Ale recipe? That recipe works equally well with (US) Cascade as it does with Nelson - and I would smash either on a hot day.

How about asking for something more generic, that encompasses beers like S&W, rather than trying to define a style on a single beer example? More like a hoppier Blonde Ale perhaps?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Nick R said:


> I don't mind the flag waving - and having Australian styles is kinda nice - but I think more good will come from having a more generic light ale description - such as the previously mentioned Ross' Summer Ale recipe? That recipe works equally well with (US) Cascade as it does with Nelson - and I would smash either on a hot day.
> 
> How about asking for something more generic, that encompasses beers like S&W, rather than trying to define a style on a single beer example? More like a hoppier Blonde Ale perhaps?


Good point. The guidelines I did write up sort of do this. A partly wheat based smashable Ale, not too big on body, brewed with southern hops.

Happy to have someone do an edit and see what comes out?


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> I disagree with this, to use the term style to me infers more than one example is available and while a style has to start somewhere it can hardly be termed a style until it has quite a few copiers and a larger range of beers to make it a style.


 I Understand that and I do agree to an extent however I think when it comes to styles if you're ahead of the game a bit I think you'd find that a larger range would present itself. for example lets say this style was actually listed, I'd be willing to bet that it's popularity would grow and as a result more examples would be made available.

EDIT: theres several examples of this historically, without trying to be too historically specific styles like the Oktoberfest for example originated in one place before becoming more popular. The beer came before the style and the style is based around a very specific region with a very specific set of rules. having said that there are now many modern examples both commercially and in the kegs of homebrewers and I think the establishment of the style itself leads to more people trying to brew it especially now knowing what sort of numbers they are trying to hit and what sort of ingredients should be used. The fact that there are not many commercial examples is for me more of a reason to make it an official style


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## mje1980 (23/7/14)

Oh man, this just gets better and better. Honestly, creating a new style guideline, in the hopes that everyone starts to brew it?. Cart before horse?


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Oh man, this just gets better and better. Honestly, creating a new style guideline, in the hopes that everyone starts to brew it?. Cart before horse?


Not in the hope that everyone starts to brew it lol what would that achieve? It just give solid guidelines to people who WANT to brew it, and of course that not to say you need a guideline to brew something, you dont need to follow any rules, but if someone has created something unique which doesnt currently fit into a style and the point of the BJCP and other such organisations is to represent the beer that is currently being brewed then I cannot understand why a new style is such a ludicrous idea?


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## Batz (23/7/14)

I was very interested in Australian ales of the past, the beer my Dad drank back in the 40t's is very different to what we brew now. Some years ago I did a bit a research and tried my hand at these beers, results were quite good. I'm not sure if I still have my notes, for some reason I lost interest.

Batz


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## mje1980 (23/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> Not in the hope that everyone starts to brew it lol what would that achieve? It just give solid guidelines to people who WANT to brew it, and of course that not to say you need a guideline to brew something, you dont need to follow any rules, but if someone has created something unique which doesnt currently fit into a style and the point of the BJCP and other such organisations is to represent the beer that is currently being brewed then I cannot understand why a new style is such a ludicrous idea?


It seems a lot like making up a style for the sake of making up a style.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> It seems a lot like making up a style for the sake of making up a style.


That's fair enough but I would argue the motivation behind it is somewhere along the lines of its the only beer I've really seen which in descriptions by various authors the style is listed as "unknown". I think that lends itself to further querying and thought as well as discussion about whether it fits somewhere or doesn't and if not what could be created to accommodate its classification. Think of it as species classification and a scientific approach, if something pops up that doesn't fit in a certain group and the prerequisites cannot be edited then a new classification would be established.


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## Blind Dog (23/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> Not in the hope that everyone starts to brew it lol what would that achieve? It just give solid guidelines to people who WANT to brew it, and of course that not to say you need a guideline to brew something, you dont need to follow any rules, but if someone has created something unique which doesnt currently fit into a style and the point of the BJCP and other such organisations is to represent the beer that is currently being brewed then I cannot understand why a new style is such a ludicrous idea?



I don't understand why you need a style guideline to brew a beer you like? Surely the main benefit of being a home brewer is that you can brew what the heck you want? It's the beer that's being brewed that should drive the style guidelines not the other way round. To be fair I think that's where this thread started


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Blind Dog said:


> I don't understand why you need a style guideline to brew a beer you like? Surely the main benefit of being a home brewer is that you can brew what the heck you want? It's the beer that's being brewed that should drive the style guidelines not the other way round. To be fair I think that's where this thread started


I thought I specifically went out of my way to state that you dont need a guideline in order to brew something? My point was that it gives people guidelines if they want them? Thats the point of guidelines? By your logic lets not have any guidelines, lets just get the BJCP to hit the ye old delete button so everyone can brew what they want.


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## Vini2ton (23/7/14)

_Coopers Sparkling Ale. Is this beer unique in the world​? What anywhere else is similar? Any suggestions as to any international beers I could try that come close to it ? Or is it already an Australian style?_


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## vykuza (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Good point. The guidelines I did write up sort of do this. A partly wheat based smashable Ale, not too big on body, brewed with southern hops.
> 
> Happy to have someone do an edit and see what comes out?



I'll have a crack at it in the morning, when this Zywiec isn't making the keyboard all bendy.


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## Blind Dog (23/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> I thought I specifically went out of my way to state that you dont need a guideline in order to brew something? My point was that it gives people guidelines if they want them? Thats the point of guidelines? By your logic lets not have any guidelines, lets just get the BJCP to hit the ye old delete button so everyone can brew what they want.


Maybe I misunderstood your post, just as you have misunderstood mine. My view is that there needs to be established commercial examples, and yes more than one, for there to be a new style as that establishes a base level of popularity. if we base new styles simply on what we as home brewers are doing or want to do then we'll end up with millions of them and surely that's pointless. So the only point we really disagree on is where to draw the line on the birth of a new style.

good discussion though


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## biggles266 (23/7/14)

Woah quite a topic - I love it! I agree with basing on Stone & Wood Pacific Ale - that beer changed everything in Australia. I remember the first night me and a couple of mates found it on tap at the Pig & Whistle in Brisbane in 2008 I think or 2007??? We started drinking it at midnight and just kept smashing down jugs until 4am. I think it holds a special place in the hearts of all Aussie beer lovers.

I like all the suggestions but I thought of using the word Ocean in there somewhere as homage. From the Stone and Wood website:

Inspired by our home on the edge of the Pacific Ocean and brewed using all Australian barley, wheat and Galaxy hops, Pacific Ale is cloudy and golden with a big fruity aroma and a refreshing finish.

It worked with old fashioned beer drinkers because it goes down easily in hot weather, so a low IBU is important. It worked for beer snobs such as us because it is just so damn good.

Variations would be along the lines of being refreshing and bringing out subtle hop flavours in a clever way. And being palatable for the old fashioned drinkers (XXXX Gold etc)...

I'd say Mornington Pale is close to the style proposed, I don't have the tech specs but it's refreshing and light but different hops altogether. (woops American hops just checked their website... oh well)


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## Online Brewing Supplies (23/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> It seems a lot like making up a style for the sake of making up a style.


How American would that be :lol:


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Maybe I misunderstood your post, just as you have misunderstood mine. My view is that there needs to be established commercial examples, and yes more than one, for there to be a new style as that establishes a base level of popularity. if we base new styles simply on what we as home brewers are doing or want to do then we'll end up with millions of them and surely that's pointless. So the only point we really disagree on is where to draw the line on the birth of a new style.
> 
> good discussion though


I see your point and it is a fair one, I guess it depends on the rules as to whether commercial examples need to be abundant or just one is enough but it's a fair point, I agree that if you made a new style for everything a homebrewer did there would be millions but I think this beer really is a different style and I haven't seen many people dispute this if any. People have only really disputed whether it should be a style or not as opposed to whether Stone and Wood Pacific Ale actually fits anywhere else. I'd argue that if you have a beer that is commercially produced and you can't rationally fit it into any of the current style guidelines nor adjust the current guidelines to fit the beer into an existing one then naturally if you are to have a good beer classification system you would add a style to accomodate the new beer. If you can find a style that adaquately fits the description of light, fruity, AUS/NZ hops, late addition, low IBU, 20-50% wheat with high drinkability and refreshing finish then I'll pipe down and say sure put it in that style but if it cannot be done then I'd argue that by the defintion of a classification system and the way it works that if it doesn't fit anywhere and can't fit anywhere then it gets its own place.


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## pajs (23/7/14)

Vini2ton said:


> _Coopers Sparkling Ale. Is this beer unique in the world​? What anywhere else is similar? Any suggestions as to any international beers I could try that come close to it ? Or is it already an Australian style?_


I've just been reading Randy Mosher's excellent _Radical Brewing_ book. He has a section (pages 84-7) on the history of 'sparkling ale'. As he tells it, the sparkling ales were a product of an 18th century trend to produce lighter, more drinkable beers than prevalent strong ales, but these new beers had higher hopping rates as well. This was partly an IPA story, but the Scots ran with this trend to produce beers called sparkling ales and were (by at least 1885) exporting these to America and the colonies. American and Australian brewers were also making 'sparkling ales' around this time. Mosher suggests that the only surviving beers of this line are those made in Adelaide (having become extinct in Scotland).

He has the Scottish examples as being highly carbonated, linking this to Scottish machine-making of higher-pressure suitable bottles. The American sparkling ales, Mosher says, fell between lagers and stock ales. He gives two recipes, on Scottish and one American. IBUs seem to have ranged between 30 & 50, alcohols at 4.2 to 6.4 across his recipes, with some use of lagering for conditioning.


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/14)

> If you can find a style that adaquately fits the description of light, fruity, AUS/NZ hops, late addition, low IBU, 20-50% wheat with high drinkability and refreshing finish then I'll pipe down and say sure put it in that style but if it cannot be done then I'd argue that by the defintion of a classification system and the way it works is that if it doesn't fit anywhere and can't fit anywhere then it gets its own place.



If that's the case you better start drawing up a guideline for jasper Ale, even the people at Stone and Wood can't categorise that beer  .

Seriously, there are plenty of commercial beers out there that don't adequately fit a particular style, I know that Pacific Ale is a nice beer but does it really warrant it's own style? It's good, but not that good that's it's being emulated commercially.


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## Batz (23/7/14)

Vini2ton said:


> _Coopers Sparkling Ale. Is this beer unique in the world​? What anywhere else is similar? Any suggestions as to any international beers I could try that come close to it ? Or is it already an Australian style?_


Agree Cooper Sparkling Ale has been around for ages, in Adelaide it was Cooper Sparkling, Coopers Stout and Coopers Extra Stout.
That was before all the other yuppie crap.


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> If that's the case you better start drawing up a guideline for jasper Ale, even the people at Stone and Wood can't categorise that beer  .
> 
> Seriously, there are plenty of commercial beers out there that don't adequately fit a particular style, I know that Pacific Ale is a nice beer but does it really warrant it's own style? It's good, but not that good that's it's being emulated commercially.


Haha that's a good point, perhaps it will take a few more commercial examples before it's considered a style of its own


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## dicko (23/7/14)

Cascade Bright Ale....is it an Ale?

Is it brewed in Australia?

Does it use all Aussie ingredients?

If yes, does it fit into the current guidelines or should a beer like that fit into a new style guidline?

The AABC guidelines are close but only need a little adjustment. I would like to forget BJCP personally.

Again, only my thoughts. 

Then if we are creating a new style there are many NZ beers which don't fit the BJCP guidelines either. h34r:


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## Nizmoose (23/7/14)

dicko said:


> Cascade Bright Ale....is it an Ale?
> 
> Is it brewed in Australia?
> 
> ...


You make an interesting point about BJCP vs AABC


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## Camo6 (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Good point. The guidelines I did write up sort of do this. A partly wheat based smashable Ale, not too big on body, brewed with southern hops.
> 
> Happy to have someone do an edit and see what comes out?


BJCP STYLES

12.B ASA: Australian Sparkling Ale

12.B.2 ASAM: A'strayan Smashbull Ale...Maaate.


I think you nailed it LRG. Next!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

Look truth be told, I'm not certain, I just think this is a fantastic debate and a point worth talking about.

But continuing the debate, with little or no tweaking beers such as Mac's Hop Rocker, Bridge Roads Single Hop IPA (less IBU but the flavour and malt profile is right), even Knappstein Reserve Lager - due to use of Nelson Sauvin could be tweaked to be in it.

Also, the weather thing. It is a beer for "Aussie" summer weather. Heck, even here in Tassie it gets warm.

I see the S&W PA being the base of this style (and let's face it, it doesn't to be the only one), because it was the first on memory to give Galaxy a go, it doesn't fit another style, it has spawned a helluva lot of clones and it has appeared to spawn a lot of single hop beers. Now I know that SMaSH beers or Single Hop craft style beers (yes, I know that XXXX and VB are single hop, don't be facetious  ) aren't the exclusive domain of Aussies, but we do tend to do them a great deal.

S&WPA isn't the same old same old of American beers with an Aussie hop interpretation, it is new enough. Add in the fact that it is very readily available all over Australia (I walked into Dan's at Albury-Wodonga and there it is on the shelf, as I did all down the eastern seaboard) means that it has a fairly decent commercial market and reach.

Don't read my putting this beer up as my exclusive devotion to it, or that it's the best beer ever. There are many beers I like better. But I see the beers I like better as being examples of existing styles.

Taking some snippets from the BJCP draft guidelines:

"The goals of the new edition are to better _address world beer styles as found in their local markets_, _keep pace with emerging craft beer market trends_, describe historical beers now finding a following, _better describe the sensory characteristics of modern brewing ingredients_, take advantage of new research and references, and help competition organizers better manage the complexity of their events."

"We believed we were creating a standardized set of style descriptions for use in homebrew competitions, but then found they were widely adopted worldwide to describe beer in general. Many countries with emerging craft beer markets were using them as handbooks for what to brew"

_To me, this means that the BJCP were always intended only for HB comps, not for commercial or educational use. _If we as HBers are regularly brewing a clone of a non-styled beer, it should be there.

About the styles - "They are suggestions, not hard limits. Allow for some flexibility in judging so that well-crafted examples can be rewarded. The guidelines are written in detail to facilitate the process of the structured evaluation of beer as practiced in homebrewing competitions; don’t take each individual statement in a style description as a reason to disqualify a beer."

Countering my own arguments:

"Not every commercial beer fits our styles. Don’t assume that every beer fits neatly into one of our categories. Some breweries revel in creating examples that don’t match our (or anyone else’s) guidelines. Some create beers called a style name that deliberately don’t match our guidelines. It’s perfectly fine for a commercial beer to not match one of our styles; we have not attempted to categorize every commercial beer – that is not our intent or our mission........They do, however, describe the _beers most commonly made today by homebrewers and many craft breweries._"

To me - we could use S&W PA as the basis for a style, or we could widen the scope for it and make a style that would include S&WPA, but not exclusively so. Or this whole debate is pointless and we stick to what is already there. 

I really value the comments of all who have seriously weighed in, even if I disagree (or appear to) with you. I think it's worth a talk. What defines "Aussie" craft beer, that isn't just American-style beer made in Australia. Who knows, but I reckon it's worth discussing.

And as I said above, putting those guidelines together were just fleshing out what was pretty well already discussed in the format for a style guideline. As BJCP said, they aren't set in stone.

The fact that we're debating this post a 'style guideline' means that at least we have created a starting point.


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## vykuza (24/7/14)

Appearance: Very light yellow to gold. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. Low to medium white head with fair to good retention.

Flavour: Optional light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, wheat). Caramel flavors typically absent. Moderate hop flavour, but not aggressive. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with low perceived bitterness. Clean yeast profile if using Ale or Lager yeast, with other yeasts (such as farmhouse, Saison, or wild yeasts) allowed, but their character should be muted and not overpower the hops or malt.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium-light body. Well attenuated. Medium to high carbonation. Smooth without harsh bitterness, carbonic bite or astringency.

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma. Medium hop aroma and can reflect almost any AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. Typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, while hop-forward, still retains balance. Fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is critical as is a thirst-quenching character. 

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral if an Ale or Lager Yeast (minimal esters) or blended with hop aroma and malt flavour if Wild or Farmhouse variety such as a saison.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate). 

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale, Two Birds Golden Ale


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

Excellent Job, NickR.


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## mje1980 (24/7/14)

If you use a farmhouse or saison yeast it will be a completely different beer to a standard clean ale or lager yeast. How can a specific style have such diversity in the yeast used to ferment it?.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> If you use a farmhouse or saison yeast it will be a completely different beer to a standard clean ale or lager yeast. How can a specific style have such diversity in the yeast used to ferment it?.


I've used Saison yeast on a 50/50 Pils/Wheat with Galaxy. It ends up drier, but pretty much in the style and does have that 'thirst quenching' taste.

I only chucked that in there for the discussion. As is mentioned, this is, as Live say, White, Discussion.


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## sponge (24/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> If you use a farmhouse or saison yeast it will be a completely different beer to a standard clean ale or lager yeast. How can a specific style have such diversity in the yeast used to ferment it?.


I agree. Something cleaner would be required for this. As much as saisons suit brewing in the Australian climate, the beers for this 'style' are generally cleaner and quaffable (not saying saisons aren't) with much more hop presence. Not to say you couldn't use a saison yeast, but it would need to be fermented cold and fairly restrained with the esters.



Nick R said:


> Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale, Two Birds Golden Ale


Could almost be adding beers like Australian Brewery pale ale, and Murrays whale ale, assuming the whale ale uses Aus/NZ hops.. although you could probably also class that as an american wheat.

Just some food for thought.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

Good point, sponge, Murray's Whale Ale very much fits the bill (Do murrays change hops? that way it wouldn't be american wheat).

How about the guidelines without Saison/farmhouse etc. It was chucked in there for climate but no commercial examples exist per se.

Interesting to see this post in the Vic case swap recipe thread, by an Englishman no less


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## sponge (24/7/14)

Guidelines without the farmhouse/saison differentiates this style to the belgian blondes and saisons and the like. A cleaner yeast, or even british yeast fermented cooler works (I've used 1469 on a couple of these styles of beers with good results) would be the most suitable IMO.

I know Murrays love their NZ hops so wouldn't be surprised if they used something from there for the whale ale.

But I think something with a decent % of wheat, light bitterness, fairly clean and dry with a fruity nose is on the money for what we're discussing.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

Spoke to a commercial (successful) craft brewer in Victoria, and their take is that NZ Pilsener should already be included as a style.

A couple of quotes:

"Because [a new style emerging can be] clearly based on NZ pilsner, New Zealand style pilsners encompass exactly what you are talking about. Best example I’ve had is Croucher Pilsner, this beer is awesome other typical examples are the hugely successful Emersons Pilsner, Wanaka Beerworks Brewski, Macs Hop Rocker and of course Knappstein.

 "NZ pilsner [of] which there are a number of regional definite examples. We saw plenty of them amongst the general pilsner category when judging at the AIBA this year and they stick out like dogs balls, and almost always score higher than their euro opposition."

So maybe we're looking at a possible two styles. NZ (or Southern) Pilsener, of which there are definite examples, which are being awarded (reactive to trends). And this as yet unquantified and unnamed style, which is increasingly looking to be an Ale (proactive creation of a trend not yet spread among commercial brewers, but has been among HBers).


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## vykuza (24/7/14)

Appearance: Very light yellow to gold. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. Low to medium white head with fair to good retention.

Flavour: Optional light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, wheat). Caramel flavors typically absent. Moderate hop flavour, but not aggressive. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with low perceived bitterness. Clean yeast profile.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium-light body. Well attenuated. Medium to high carbonation. Smooth without harsh bitterness, carbonic bite or astringency.

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma. Medium hop aroma and can reflect almost any AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. Typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, while hop-forward, still retains balance. Fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is critical as is a thirst-quenching character. 

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate). 

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale, Two Birds Golden Ale, Murray's Whale Ale, Australian Brewery Pale Ale


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

For *Antipodean Pilsener:*

Appearance: Light Straw to Light Gold appears, brilliantly clear. White head which can linger.

Flavour: Fresh, clean, vibrant malt character, with optional light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, caramel). Moderately Low to Moderate hop flavour (but always balanced) with clean bitterness from early kettle additions and not aggressively late hopped, though with adequate use to distinguish from the Saazer type hops used in European Pilseners. No Esters.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium-light body. Well attenuated with dry mouthfeel, without being tart. High carbonation. Smooth and spritzy without harsh bitterness, carbonic bite or astringency. Not overly bitter but reflecting balance slightly towards the hops.

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma with typical pilsener malt notes. Can have some specialty malt aroma, but this must remain low. Low-Medium hop aroma and can reflect almost any AU/NZ hops, with almost any descriptor (fruity, citrus, spicy, wine-like or floral) but aroma must not overly reflect a "Saazer style" hop typical of European examples and should not dominate the malt presence. Clean fermentation profile from use of Lager yeasts. No esters.

Overall Impression: An antipodean take on a European Pilsener with Australia or New Zealand hops replacing Saazer type hops, reflective of locally available ingredients. Will likely have a low-moderate fruity palate from use of AU/NZ hops, but these do not dominate. Rather the balanced bitterness reflective of the standard pilsener style is still there, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpoweringly hoppy nor overly bitter. Sessionability is critical as is a thirst-quenching character. 

Ingredients: Pilsener Malt (locally produced or imported) is used and forms the majority of the grist. If locally produced Pils malt is used, it can have a slight 'mousecage' aroma to it. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should be minimal. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Neutral Lager Yeast.

Comments: Antipodean Pils were created as an alternative to mainstream mass-produced pilseners imported from Europe, which had often had an aged quality to them and locally made "Brewed Under Licence" European Pilseners, which often lacked the softer water qualities of a Czech Pilsener. In using local hops and with a shorter distance to travel, these reflected the "fresh" quality typical of European Pilseners consumed at the source. Originally and almost exclusively used the Nelson Sauvin variety, which lent a dry, white-wine like flavour to the beer, however this variety now uses most Australian or New Zealand grown varieties (including AU/NZ Grown cascade), usually with a whole or part fruitiness in flavour.

Commercial examples: Emersons Pilsner, Wanaka Beerworks Brewski, Macs Hop Rocker, Croucher Pilsner, Knappstein Reserve Lager.


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## drewstertherooster (24/7/14)

Don't know if anyone had a chance to try Mash's Summer Ale? Think it was called 'Wild Child'. That seemed to fit in well with the style. From memory it was somewhere between 4.5-5%, pale gold colour, good head retention, very fruity from Summer hops I think.

I don't know if this is something that needs to be sent off to BJCP or wherever just yet. I like the discussion and like the idea of starting to define a style based on homebrewers and commercial breweries starting to brew beers similar to S&W PA. Once there are more commercial examples and there's a strong feeling amongst homebrewers that 'this is a Pacific Ale' (or whatever it's called), then I'd think that's when we get these bodies to recognise it in their guidelines.

For the people questioning why we're bothering, I don't see what's wrong with having the discussion? Beer is constantly changing and evolving and it's nice to have this discussion to reflect on a small aspect, and an Australian aspect, of that evolution.


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## AndrewQLD (24/7/14)

I have no objection to discussing or creating a new style as such, I would just prefer the results were directed firstly to the AABA/AABC which has their own set of guidelines for the Australian major State and national competitions and then if that becomes accepted and popular then a request to the BJCP/AHA body could be made to include it in their guidelines.

As the guidelines that the AABC use are not the same as the BJCP ones it makes more sense to make any change to the guidelines that are more relevant to Australian brewers first.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

Good idea. Why shouldn't it go to the AABC? 

But who does it? As an individual we might not have any great influence (heck the commercial brewer I spoke to has been, reading between the lines, asking for NZ Pils to be included as a separate category for a couple of years now).

<sees picture in mind> Goomba emails AABC "I reckon we should put in xyz beer as a style guidelines" AABC says "yeah, you and whose army?"

</sees>

However, if we are discussing this issue (and the diverse points of view it seems to attact) here, wouldn't the voice of a larger number of Australian Home Brewers, complete with how we arrived at a/some style/s be an option?

If nothing else comes of this discussion, why not just enjoy that we all see "Aussie Craft Brew" and the development of Home Brew in Australia from a myriad points of view?


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## dicko (24/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> I have no objection to discussing or creating a new style as such, I would just prefer the results were directed firstly to the AABA/AABC which has their own set of guidelines for the Australian major State and national competitions and then if that becomes accepted and popular then a request to the BJCP/AHA body could be made to include it in their guidelines.
> 
> As the guidelines that the AABC use are not the same as the BJCP ones it makes more sense to make any change to the guidelines that are more relevant to Australian brewers first.


I totally agree with AndrewQLD....keep it on our shores but broaden the existing category /s to reflect what is being brewed currently both commercially and on the HB scene.

It does seem the logical step to have the guidelines changed by our representing body to suit our region before anyone singularly tries to change the rest of the worlds thinking on beer styles.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> I have no objection to discussing or creating a new style as such, I would just prefer the results were directed firstly to the AABA/AABC which has their own set of guidelines for the Australian major State and national competitions and then if that becomes accepted and popular then a request to the BJCP/AHA body could be made to include it in their guidelines.
> 
> As the guidelines that the AABC use are not the same as the BJCP ones it makes more sense to make any change to the guidelines that are more relevant to Australian brewers first.





dicko said:


> I totally agree with AndrewQLD....keep it on our shores but broaden the existing category /s to reflect what is being brewed currently both commercially and on the HB scene.
> 
> It does seem the logical step to have the guidelines changed by our representing body to suit our region before anyone singularly tries to change the rest of the worlds thinking on beer styles.


Totally agree with both of you - I had missed that key step in the process.

I think that the BJCP change in guidelines might have prompted this thought of 'hey what do we brew' - but yeah, the Aussie body changing to what we actually brew and then they can take up any changes that they see fit with BJCP.

The BJCP to their credit do say that what they produce is a general, US-centric guide, and they can't possibly be on top of it all.

Excellent point.  :chug:


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## barabool (24/7/14)

What about some inspiration from some historic Australian beers -
This is from the The Australasian newspaper (Melbourne, Vic. ), Saturday 9 October 1880, page 24


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## HBHB (24/7/14)

Spiesy said:


> Don't know... Saison sounds pretty French to me
> 
> Aren't we making up a new style anyway?


So call it a "Season" Orstraylyan for Saison.  yeast cultured from the belly button fluff of a shearer wearing a Jackie Howe singlet.


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## verysupple (24/7/14)

:icon_offtopic:



Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> <snip>
> 
> Southern Oceans Ale? Southern Ocean Ale? Tasman Sea Ale? But then, S&W are on the Pacific Ocean - so are we going for providence of the beer, or providence of the hops?
> 
> <snip>


I'm a bit behind in this thread, but I think the word you're looking for is "provenance". Providence means something completely different...or a town in Rhode Island, USA.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

verysupple said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> 
> I'm a bit behind in this thread, but I think the word you're looking for is "provenance". Providence means something completely different...or a town in Rhode Island, USA.


Must be a tablet typo.

My wife is French descent (1st gen Aussie), I should know the proper word!

Thanks mate


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## /// (24/7/14)

I read thru, and seemed that much of the discussion was about a light Pale Ale that simply uses what was a new hop in dry hop. Unlike a beer like Barons (forgive me for mentioning them) Wattle Seed Ale ... or a take on a different theme ... Vienna Imperial Lager ... with belgo ale and lager yeast ... 

So i'd ask the question about the use of a technique or a addition other than a new hop ...

Flame suit on ...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

I used to love Baron's Lemon Myrtle Witbier.

The current idea sprange from the fact that S&W PA was neither an APA nor an American Wheat. It sort of straddled a number of styles and uses AU/NZ hops. Based on both AABC and BJCP guidelines it cannot be classified at the moment.

I would (though hesitatingly) add that they use a very very light IBU profile, mostly late additions - we're talking the aroma of these hops, flavour, but tops 20IBU in this instance.

It's a commercial success and in qualitative terms, it tastes like Aussie Summer should.

Another possible explanation - look at, say an American Pilsener or even APA as a style. It realistically is just a continental (in the case of Pils) or English Ale (APA) with American hops. But certainly the beer is much different from that which it originated from.

No flamesuit  - this is a massive discussion thread on 'what a current Aussie craft beer is and can we define one (or more) styles for it'.

After thinking about AU/NZ Pils, I think this discussion runs deeper than "change x hop, but it's still the same" - but I certainly think that 'there is no right or wrong answer' to this.


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## /// (24/7/14)

Yes, there is no right answer. The beer discussed won a World Beer Cup medal in the English Summer Ale category just to confuse issues.

We have made a few 100% wheat beers for ourselves and a contract (one included wasabi), and I'd also say there are quite a few brewers chasing a similar light ale with all the hops put into the whirlpool ... so what is new about that sort of beer ...

I'd be keen to see a clandestine network of home brewers wearing hoddies canoodling in dark corners talking in whispers about something other than a dry hopped light ale, maybe a solera wood aged wild yeast flanders beer refermented with pear juice ...

Want some left field very original beers, look no further ... http://www.farmhousebeer.com/our-beers.html


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## HBHB (25/7/14)

If I may add two worthless cents:

Does it really matter?

Outside of a competitive entry submitted for judging, brewers will always just make what beer style suits them. I mean who ever heard of something black as the ace of spades being classed as pale? ie Black Indian Pale Ale maybe - I'm missing something. What's next...a Black Belgian Witbier?

If at some stage, their beer doesn't sit within the style guidelines of BJCP or AABC, it doesn't detract from the said beer being gob smackingly delicious. If they want it judged then they can enter it into the specialty beer category and have the beer judged on it's own merits.

BTW, Amber Ales don't have a category under AABC either. (Correction, they do now for 2014, tks Andrew)


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## sponge (25/7/14)

/// said:


> I read thru, and seemed that much of the discussion was about a light Pale Ale that simply uses what was a new hop in dry hop. Unlike a beer like Barons (forgive me for mentioning them) Wattle Seed Ale ... or a take on a different theme ... Vienna Imperial Lager ... with belgo ale and lager yeast ...
> 
> So i'd ask the question about the use of a technique or a addition other than a new hop ...
> 
> Flame suit on ...


Completely off topic, but there's a small brewery out in Renmark (Woolshed brewery) that does a wattleseed dark ale and is quite nice indeed. Can be a little hit and miss, but when it's good it's a real nice drop.

And just down the road from the brewery is a place that makes sticky wattleseed balsamic. My lord.. god's nectar. Myself and the mrs go through far too much of that stuff.. Doesn't help that we buy it in casks.

If it was alcoholic, I'd have a new poison.


Now, back to the style discussion!


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## mje1980 (25/7/14)

For years I've been wanting to put my chilli vanilla vegemite imperial stout pale lager saison in a comp. The way things are going, soon there might even be an Australian version of the style.


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## AndrewQLD (25/7/14)

> BTW, Amber Ales don't have a category under AABC either.


8.4 American Amber Ale


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## Bribie G (25/7/14)

Australian style:

kilo saunders malt
two kilos raw sugar
ounce of Pride of Ringwood flowers stored on a LHBS shelf for at least one summer
Teaspoon Parisian Essence

Tandaco yeast

Ferment at 27 degrees for a week.


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## HBHB (25/7/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> 8.4 American Amber Ale


Thanks, when did that come in Andrew? Looking at a print out here now.....nada. 2010 guidelines printed 2012 has duseldorf Alt as 8.4.
sorry for the hijack


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## AndrewQLD (25/7/14)

I think it changed in 2013, although my memory is pretty crap.


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## Bribie G (25/7/14)

The Australian version of the BJCP guidelines dropped the American Amber as it was considered that nobody was brewing it anymore. They were in the style guide in 2009 as I entered one. However they disappeared then reappeared a few years later, I think it might have been 2012.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (25/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> The Australian version of the BJCP guidelines dropped the American Amber as it was considered that nobody was brewing it anymore. They were in the style guide in 2009 as I entered one. However they disappeared then reappeared a few years later, I think it might have been 2012.


Thus why this discussion is worth having (heck I think it is even for the fun of it!  ).

Styles are coming on and off the BJCP and AABC guidelines in line with 'demand' (to give it an economic term). Why not discuss new styles. Outside of AABC (for Aus) no one has more brewers' input in this country regarding what is currently being brewed.

The way I see it, the guidelines are reactive (to what is being brewed) to allow like beers to be judged in as fair a way as possible (although we all know that even this is subject to different judges' perceptions and interpretations). Having said that, this topic started as a proactive "what if we made up a new style?" exercise, not a reactive "this is why we're brewing, why not create a style of our own?".

If it's just a big whole lot of wind and no-one enjoys talking about it (it's a bit like pub speak, lots of hot air  ), we can just all agree to disagree and leave it _status quo ante bellum._


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## Nizmoose (26/7/14)

HBHB said:


> If I may add two worthless cents:
> 
> Does it really matter?
> 
> ...


It really doesn't matter and you're 100% correct any addition or subtraction of styles is highly unlikely to change the frequency of which they're brewed but it's a good conversation


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## Blind Dog (26/7/14)

Nizmoose said:


> It really doesn't matter and you're 100% correct any addition or subtraction of styles is highly unlikely to change the frequency of which they're brewed but it's a good conversation


+1 (if that's what you young uns do; I don't get Gen A let alone Gen Y or anything in between)

And I just realized that I have to eat humble pie, climb a long ladder and hang myself from my own petard, as b***** me sideways but there is already a style with 1 commercial example; Ladies and gentleperkins I give you BJCP style 7B California common (aka Anchor Steam; they're scraping the barrel with the other 2 examples given in the 2008 guidelines).


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (26/7/14)

Blind Dog said:


> +1 (if that's what you young uns do; I don't get Gen A let alone Gen Y or anything in between)
> And I just realized that I have to eat humble pie, climb a long ladder and hang myself from my own petard, as b***** me sideways but there is already a style with 1 commercial example; Ladies and gentleperkins I give you BJCP style 7B California common (aka Anchor Steam; they're scraping the barrel with the other 2 examples given in the 2008 guidelines).


And I reckon a lot of Commons and cream ales are being brewed here _ because _ they're in the (American) guidelines.


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## /// (26/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> For years I've been wanting to put my chilli vanilla vegemite imperial stout pale lager saison in a comp. The way things are going, soon there might even be an Australian version of the style.


No barrel aging? Prefer those ones ...


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## peas_and_corn (27/7/14)

HBHB said:


> If I may add two worthless cents:
> 
> Does it really matter?
> 
> Outside of a competitive entry submitted for judging, brewers will always just make what beer style suits them. I mean who ever heard of something black as the ace of spades being classed as pale? ie Black Indian Pale Ale maybe - I'm missing something. What's next...a Black Belgian Witbier?


Black wits do exist- is called a dunkelweissen (not belgian though)


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## Pilchard (27/7/14)

From a not too involved brewer and new to this scene, I would have to say S&W pacific was a big new contender for me. An easy drinking summer ale, he'll Darwin is nearly summer ale temps, even Newcastle is not that cold, it would only be non applicable to the southern states in winter, sly fox is another I put into this category. I reckon being the sunburnt country we should be producing light bodied with adequate floral/nasal hop characteristics to be a world leader. This is what I am working on and haven't had many complaints from the mates. I started with the S&W recipe from the brewery. I just like it a little more bitter with more passionfruit.


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## pajs (27/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> And I reckon a lot of Commons and cream ales are being brewed here _ because _ they're in the (American) guidelines.


Not sure about cream ales, but I think more Cali Commons/steam beers make sense for Australian brewing. A good style for making in Australian climates, I think, given our limited window of ambient temperatures suitable for cold lager brewing.


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## Blind Dog (27/7/14)

HBHB said:


> If I may add two worthless cents:
> 
> Does it really matter?
> 
> ...


Maybe. I'm sure they help both brewers and judges for comps and I do use them as guides to figure out recipes for styles outside my normal repertoire. But I also struggle with the proliferation of styles. There's seems to be a new one every time I look.

But there are some really good points being made in this discussion and I'm kind of being persuaded that Nizmoose, LRG et al have a point

Also a really great wit with chocolate overtones from dark malts sounds fabulous...


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## Moad (27/7/14)

verysupple said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a bit behind in this thread, but I think the word you're looking for is "provenance". Providence means something completely different...or a town in Rhode Island, USA.


Prevelance?


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## Elz (30/7/14)

Australian style
Strong ale style beer but a little cloudy. Likely to be drunk in the cooler months say 10-20 oC. Slight smokiness, reminiscent of our brushfire heritage. Maybe a touch of smoked eucalypts during kilning. Also a little on the malty side which I reckon could be balanced with the smallest amount of saltiness (girt by sea) I mean really a small amount of saltiness. Hops would be universal which represents our heritage of multiculturalism. I reckon a blend of Aus, UK, Europe and NZ, chuck in USA if you want? Aged in a cask for 6 months. Served at 7oC, lightly carbonated with a nice thick head. Great lacing, definitely aromatic but not too bitter (40-45 IBU). Sold in 750 ml bottle. ABV 7-8%. could do with some bottle ageing also.Beautiful!


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## Kizza91 (31/7/14)

I have been thinking about this and have just bottled my attempt. Made with all Aussie hops and added a dose of 100% eucalyptus oil to the fermenter and at bottling. I'll see how it goes in a couple of weeks.


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## vykuza (31/7/14)

Nice! Love people trying new things. That could be extremely refreshing...


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## barabool (31/7/14)

12B. Australian Sparkling Ale

Aroma: Fairly soft, clean aroma with a balanced mix of esters, hops, malt, and yeast – all moderate to low in intensity. The esters 
are frequently pears and apples, possibly with a very light touch of banana (optional). The hops are earthy, herbaceous, or might 
show the characteristic iron-like Pride of Ringwood nose. The malt can range from neutral grainy to moderately sweet to lightly 
bready; no caramel should be evident. Very fresh examples can have a lightly yeasty, sulfury nose.
Appearance: Deep yellow to light amber in color, often medium gold. Tall, frothy, persistent white head with tiny bubbles. 
Noticeable effervescence due to high carbonation. Brilliant clarity if decanted, but typically poured with yeast to have a cloudy 
appearance. Not typically cloudy unless yeast roused during the pour.

Flavor: Medium to low rounded, grainy to bready malt flavor, initially mild to malty-sweet but a medium to medium-high 
bitterness rises mid-palate to balance the malt. Caramel flavors typically absent. Highly attenuated, giving a dry finish with 
lingering bitterness, although the body gives an impression of fullness. Medium to medium-high hop flavor, somewhat earthy and 
possibly herbal, resinous, peppery, or iron-like but not floral, lasting into aftertaste. Medium-high to medium-low esters, often 
pears and apples. Banana is optional, but should never dominate. May be lightly minerally or sulfury, especially if yeast is 
present. Should not be bland.

Mouthfeel: High to very high carbonation, giving mouth-filling bubbles and a crisp, spritzy carbonic bite. Medium to medium

full body, tending to the higher side if poured with yeast. Smooth but gassy. Stronger versions may have a light alcohol warmth, 
but lower alcohol versions will not. Very well-attenuated, should not have any residual sweetness.



Overall Impression: Smooth and balanced, all components merge together with similar intensities. Moderate flavors showcasing 
Australian ingredients. Large flavor dimension. Very drinkable, suited to a hot climate. Relies on yeast character



Comments: Coopers has been making their flagship Sparkling Ale since 1862, although the formulation has changed over the 
years. Presently the beer will have brilliant clarity if decanted, but publicans often pour most of the beer into a glass then swirl 
the bottle and dump in all the yeast. In some bars, the bottle is rolled along the bar! When served on draught, the brewery 
instructs publicans to invert the keg to rouse the yeast. A cloudy appearance for the style seems to be a modern consumer 
preference. Always naturally carbonated, even in the keg. A present-use ale, best enjoyed fresh.

History: Brewing records show that the majority of Australian beer brewed in the 19th century was draught XXX (Mild) and 
porter. Ale in bottle was originally developed to compete with imported bottled pale ales from British breweries, such as Bass and 
Wm Younger’ Monk. By the early 20th century, bottled pale ale went out of fashion and “lighter” lager beers were in vogue. 
Many Australian Sparkling and Pale Ales were labeled as ales, but were actually bottom-fermented lagers with very similar grists 
to the ales that they replaced. Coopers of Adelaide, South Australia is the only surviving brewer producing the Sparkling Ale 
style



Characteristic Ingredients: Lightly kilned Australian 2-row pale malt, lager varieties may be used. Small amounts of crystal 
malt for color adjustment only. Modern examples use no adjuncts, cane sugar for priming only. Historical examples using 45% 2 
row, 30% higher protein malt (6 row) would use around 25% sugar to dilute the nitrogen content. Traditionally used Australian
hops, Cluster, and Goldings until replaced from mid-1960s by Pride of Ringwood. Highly attenuative Burton-type yeast 
(Australian-type strain typical). Variable water profile, typically with low carbonates and moderate sulfates.
Style Comparison: Superficially similar to English Pale Ales, although much more highly carbonated, with less caramel, less 
late hops, and showcasing the signature yeast strain and hop variety. More bitter than IBUs might suggest due to high attenuation, 
low final gravity, and somewhat coarse hops. 

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.038 – 1.050
IBUs: 20 – 35 FG: 1.004 – 1.006 
SRM: 4 – 7 ABV: 4.5 – 6.0% 
Commercial Examples: Coopers Sparkling Ale, Coopers Original Pale Ale

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/2014%20BJCP%20Style%20Guidelines%20(DRAFT).pdf


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## elollerenshaw (31/7/14)

I think this is a really interesting topic Sippa. And I understand your point exactly with Refrigeration.

We are generally focussed on reproducing beer styles from overseas (for good reason) but wouldn't it be great if we could create a our own distinctive style.

Especially as being Australians we pride ourselves on our beer drinking (swilling) abilities.
I do remember James Squire (?) making a pepper berry winter ale which is a native plant.
also Two Metre Tall in Tassie, emphasise using local/native ingredients.

For example; they make a dark huon ale which uses apple juice (from the huon valley) in a true secondary fermentation.
Just a pity it doesn't taste that great! Hopefully others disagree.

The other ingredient that comes to mind is honey. e.g. native eucalyptus flowers. Bee's may have been introduced within last 200 yrs.?

Don't know what the answer is, but excellent starter Sippo. I'm sure with some australian creativity we can well improve on "Aussie Bitter".
Is that really a proper style anyway?


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## elollerenshaw (31/7/14)

Hmmm.
I read page 1, but not Page 2-9 before making that last post.!


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## technobabble66 (16/9/14)

Fwiw, i spoke to an overseas friend today who said he went to a craft beer bar & bottle shop in Singapore on saturday. He mentioned there were _several_ beers there from, namely, the UK (& maybe US also) that were labelled as Pacific Ale or South Pacific Ale.
So it seems like there could be a new style/label organically emerging after all.


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