# A Crazy Idea For Trub/hop Separation In The Kettle



## Thirsty Boy (31/1/08)

OK, I'll start with why...

I use a converted keg as a boiler and for some reason, whirlpooling does absolutely nothing in my system.

I really really dislike leaving litres of wort behind in an attempt to avoid hot break and hops pellet sludge (I get cold break regardless... plate chiller)

So I have been coming up with whacky ways to not only avoid the goop... but also to drain every last drop out of the kettle. And I think I have one that will sound stupid at first, but the more I think about it, isn't so much.


Set kettle (keg) up with a dip tube running right to the bottom of the vessel, slip a bit of hose braid or similar over the end. Take a shovel full of (obviously well cleaned) medium grained sand and chuck it into the kettle.

Fill kettle with wort and boil as per normal. After flame out, give it a whirpool, which will (hopefully) pile the sand up in a nice flat cone around the diptube, let it settle for 5 mins and then start running off the wort.

The hosebraid will stop the sand from going up the diptube, the sand will act as a depth filter and trap the hops and break material, clear wort will run to the chiller, right down to the bottom of the kettle. Any sand that made it to the fermentor.. would be the first thing that settled to the bottom anyway. The sand is either just washed away when you wash the kettle, or I suppose you could clean it and use it again.

Its more or less the same thing that happens when you use a false bottom and flower hops... but the sand takes the place of both the false bottom and the flowers.. meaning that you can use pellets exclusively. Which is what I do.

This idea actually started out with me thinking that you could use a mesh bag (stockings or BIAB material??) of sand as a false bottom in a mash-tun... and I reckon that might work too

So.. crazy or not??

Thirsty


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## warrenlw63 (31/1/08)

Sounds mighty similar to Pumpy's gravel in the mashtun TB.  

Warren -


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## newguy (31/1/08)

Not so crazy as sand is used in municipal water filtration plants. I'd experiment though just to make sure that you can get a good flow rate. If the flow is satisfactory, throw a few hop pellets in and try again just to see if you can whirlpool the sand and that it does filter out the hop particles from the pellets.

Anyone here do sandblasting for a living? Isn't that sand quite clean? Using it might save a few washing steps.


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## devo (31/1/08)

or stainless steel ball bearings?!?!


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## joshuahardie (31/1/08)

I pass the wort over a cloth filter, mainly just a layer of cheap cotton, to clear all the rubbish out of my wort, because i can't seem to get clear runnings very well, even after trying, crash chilling, whirlpooling and irish moss.

don't know if it was a daft thing to do, but in the only time i tried it, it worked very well. a little slow as it clogs and has to be washed, but it still worked.

interesting idea though.


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## discoloop (31/1/08)

I just tip all the junk into the fermenter. Most of it settles over the course of fermentation. I proabably lose about a litre of beer at most, usually less, in doing this.

When I rack my beers, I make a 'bag' out of sterilised nylon stocking which I tie over the end of the racking tube. That seems to take care of the remaining the bad stuff.


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## Simon W (31/1/08)

joshuahardie said:


> I pass the wort over a cloth filter, mainly just a layer of cheap cotton, to clear all the rubbish out of my wort.....
> 
> don't know if it was a daft thing to do.....



Been doing this for some time and it works well, still trying to find the ultimate weave to get good flow and filtering with min blockage.

All cloth gets boiled for 30mins before use, yet to get an infection.


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## SJW (31/1/08)

I have the same setup, converted keg, and I just have a bit of copper pipe bent 180 deg and pointing down and it only leaves 1 litre behind + who cares about a little trub?

View attachment kettle.doc


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## pint of lager (31/1/08)

Thirsty boy, I was having problems with whirlpooling.

The problem turned out to be the residual heat trapped in the blocks holding the boiler up. These create thermals in the wort for quite a while after turning off the heat.

Try leaving the boiled wort for 10 minutes, then whirlpooling.

You must have been spending time with pumpy. The sand will probably work. Just like pumpy's gravel mash bottom.

One idea that pops up regularly is that hop cones create a very good filter bed to remove hot break. You just have to work out a false bottom to hold the cones back.


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## drsmurto (31/1/08)

I love reading about just how MacGyver like brewers are. It never ceases to amaze me the ingenuity you lot are capable of. 

Me on the other hand cant tell one end of a hammer form the other so i just save my pennies and bought one of these......

I can tip the kettle and get every last drop out. Plus, its part of the addiction ppl seem to have as brewers, shiny things.


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## newguy (31/1/08)

pint of lager said:


> One idea that pops up regularly is that hop cones create a very good filter bed to remove hot break. You just have to work out a false bottom to hold the cones back.



You don't need a false bottom. When I first started brewing I'd do my boils in a big pot on an electric stove. The pot didn't have a tap. I fashioned a piece of copper tubing into the shape of a question mark: ? The curved part fit around the inside bottom edge of my pot, and the straight portion of the question mark was bent straight up the side of the pot. The bottom of the curved part had many small holes drilled in it. I'd siphon the wort out through that tube. I used whole cone (flower) hops back then, and didn't whirlpool. The hops would drop out first, and the break would then cover them. My wort would be crystal clear every time.


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## brettprevans (31/1/08)

Smurto, where did you get your grouse looking peice of equip and does it stop pellets?

OT - talking about using sterile sand....I met a mother who was paranoid about her kid catching germs from the sand they bought for the kids sandpit. so she spend days boiling and steralising the sand only to have the cat come and 'foul' it 1 day later! funny stuff. silly woman... and no it wasnt my missus.


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## RobW (31/1/08)

I just run the last few litres into a couple of 2 litre PET bottles, put them in the fridge for a couple of hours and pour the clear stuff off the top into the fermenter.


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## geoffi (31/1/08)

I had an idea of doing something similar by clamping SS braid onto my dip tube.

Alas, then I read that if my aluminium pot came into contact with SS, really nasty things would happen.

Oh well...





DrSmurto said:


> I love reading about just how MacGyver like brewers are. It never ceases to amaze me the ingenuity you lot are capable of.
> 
> Me on the other hand cant tell one end of a hammer form the other so i just save my pennies and bought one of these......
> 
> I can tip the kettle and get every last drop out. Plus, its part of the addiction ppl seem to have as brewers, shiny things.


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## Lukes (31/1/08)

DrSmurto said:


> I love reading about just how MacGyver like brewers are. It never ceases to amaze me the ingenuity you lot are capable of.
> 
> Me on the other hand cant tell one end of a hammer form the other so i just save my pennies and bought one of these......
> 
> I can tip the kettle and get every last drop out. Plus, its part of the addiction ppl seem to have as brewers, shiny things.




DrSmurto, how does this go with hop flowers and pellets?
Do you have any after photo's?

- Luke


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## drsmurto (31/1/08)

So far i have only used pellets and plugs (but i have a few packets of flowers waiting impatiently). Hot break and hop trub stay in the kettle. Clear wort goes straight into a plate chiller (one of the reasons i bought this) Havent taken any pics of the trub, not sure why i would except for THAT thread.....


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## Lukes (31/1/08)

Nice I am getting in on some sort of screen in my new kettle soon.
One more question. 
Do you get a whirlpool going at flame out?

- Luke


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## drsmurto (31/1/08)

Lukes said:


> Nice I am getting in on some sort of screen in my new kettle soon.
> One more question.
> Do you get a whirlpool going at flame out?
> 
> - Luke



Yep, i whirlpool like crazy at flameout altho i am not sure its needed with this?


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## braufrau (31/1/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> Smurto, where did you get your grouse looking peice of equip and does it stop pellets?



Is that a beerbelly / domonsura thingy?


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## chovain (31/1/08)

braufrau said:


> Is that a beerbelly / domonsura thingy?



I'm pretty sure it's the kettle hopscreen here


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## drsmurto (31/1/08)

braufrau said:


> Is that a beerbelly / domonsura thingy?



It is indeed


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## enoch (31/1/08)

Geoffi said:


> I had an idea of doing something similar by clamping SS braid onto my dip tube.
> Alas, then I read that if my aluminium pot came into contact with SS, really nasty things would happen.



Stainless plus Ali shouldn't be an issue but if you use pellets my (and a lot of other) experience is that you are good odds to bind the braid and get nothing through it. Having said that now I use a hop sock it may be worth me trying the braid option again to get rid of the break material. 

Edit: link added


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## Thirsty Boy (31/1/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Sounds mighty similar to Pumpy's gravel in the mashtun TB.
> 
> Warren -



Gravel in the mashtun?? Now that would work, or even those nice round river pebbles. I'm off to have a search around for those threads.

As for my sand idea - I don't want any trub at all in my fermentor so I'm certainly not going to just ignore it, I predominantly use pellets so anything designed for flowers is no good to me, I've tried screening with hosebraid and it just clogs up. Thats why I'm searching for alternate solutions

I haven't tried a straight false bottom, just assumed that if it was fine enough to stop the break and pellets, it would also just clog up... but a few of those pics suggest maybe I'm wrong.

What I am setting up to try on my next brew... is a straight up post kettle, pre-chiller filter. Take the filter housing I use for filtering my water, pop into it a nice 20micron pleated poly filter, run wort out of kettle through filter housing on its way to the chiller (maybe via a pump??). As a bonus, it can serve double duty as a hop-back and I will get better aroma in my beers. I know the filters are fine up to 120C and I will do a bit of boiling water testing to make sure that the housing doesn't melt/leach nasty flavours or smells.

Still... i think I.m gonna try the sand thing one of these time, I reckon it might be a nice easy solution that doesn't need to be pulled out and cleaned under (damn I'm lazy as well as fussy  )

Thirsty


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## Pumpy (31/1/08)

Alas at the time the brewing fraternity was not ready to look at the process from outside the square , I would often sit at home in the corner and ponder ,and sigh what might have been  

Pumpy


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## schooey (31/1/08)

I went to the Captain Keyboard, aka Tony (sorry mate  ) school of building kettles. The false bottom works a treat and as long as I add flowers, or plugs along with pellets, the pellety slime and the trub tends to sit on top of the flowers or plugs and I get a beautiful clear wort.


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## Jye (31/1/08)

schooey, how did you get your kettle so shiny? :lol:


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## schooey (31/1/08)

Hard work and no PC skills.. D'oh


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## Thirsty Boy (1/2/08)

Pumpy said:


> Alas at the time the brewing fraternity was not ready to look at the process from outside the square , I would often sit at home in the corner and ponder ,and sigh what might have been
> 
> Pumpy



Haven't searched the threads yet ..... did you try it?? squares are for squares. I f you did I wanna know, If you didn't ..... we need to give it a go, just for the hell of it.

I'm dead certain it would work.
TB


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## Kai (1/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> So far i have only used pellets and plugs (but i have a few packets of flowers waiting impatiently). Hot break and hop trub stay in the kettle. Clear wort goes straight into a plate chiller (one of the reasons i bought this) Havent taken any pics of the trub, not sure why i would except for THAT thread.....



I have the same screen and make sure I use at least one plug in each batch. I'm beginning to really like whole hops, they look so nice rolling around in the boil. 

On a good day, I leave less than a litre of wort behind. On a bad, almost two. I'm pretty happy with that.


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## eric8 (1/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> It is indeed



DrS,
did you bend that yourself, or did it come pre bent?
I saw in another thread that someone use a tea leaf ball thingy on their tube, anyone know how that went? Anyone remember the thread?
Eric


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## drsmurto (1/2/08)

eric8 said:


> DrS,
> did you bend that yourself, or did it come pre bent?
> I saw in another thread that someone use a tea leaf ball thingy on their tube, anyone know how that went? Anyone remember the thread?
> Eric



Wayne bent it into shape to fit my kettle.


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## Andyd (1/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> I love reading about just how MacGyver like brewers are. It never ceases to amaze me the ingenuity you lot are capable of.
> 
> Me on the other hand cant tell one end of a hammer form the other so i just save my pennies and bought one of these......
> 
> I can tip the kettle and get every last drop out. Plus, its part of the addiction ppl seem to have as brewers, shiny things.




The website says this has 2mm perforations. Surely that's too big to stop the trub if youre only using hop pellets...

Andy


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## RobW (1/2/08)

This little jobby is claimed to screen out everything down to pellets and trub:

http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/TheHopStopper.pdf


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## warrenlw63 (1/2/08)

And you get a free pen !!! Awesome. :icon_chickcheers:

Warren -


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## RobW (1/2/08)

I think they mentioned steak knives somewhere too !


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## Thirsty Boy (2/2/08)

RobW said:


> This little jobby is claimed to screen out everything down to pellets and trub:
> 
> http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/TheHopStopper.pdf
> 
> View attachment 17506




Yeah.... thats the jigger I really want. Anybody importing them??


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## SpillsMostOfIt (2/2/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Yeah.... thats the jigger I really want. Anybody importing them??



Some sub-micron stainless steel bolting cloth and some time would see a facsimile device. Problem is getting suppliers of same to sell it to you...


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## justsomeguy (2/2/08)

I built something similar to the hopstoppa a while back.

Not overly impressed with the results using pellets though. I used a pair of 10 inch stainless steel splatter screens I picked up from the local supermarket for $4 each. Took the framing off and rolled the edges together. Did not work well when trying to recirculate for a whirlpool at the end of the boil. The pressure from the pump packed the hops hard against the screen stopping the pump altogether.

If you don't use a pump then I suppose its a reasonable bit of gear. I switched to a hopsock and haven't looked back.

gary


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## RobW (5/2/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Yeah.... thats the jigger I really want. Anybody importing them??



$60 off the website - plus postage, but it wouldn't weigh much.

http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/TheHopStopper.html


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## capretta (5/2/08)

newguy said:


> ...pot didn't have a tap. I fashioned a piece of copper tubing into the shape of a question mark: ? The curved part fit around the inside bottom edge of my pot, and the straight portion of the question mark was bent straight up the side of the pot. The bottom of the curved part had many small holes drilled in it. I'd siphon the wort out through that tube.



awesome solution to my problem there.. now i have some thing to do with my crappy first attempt at wort chiller! cheers.


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## drsmurto (6/2/08)

Andyd said:


> The website says this has 2mm perforations. Surely that's too big to stop the trub if youre only using hop pellets...
> 
> Andy



Been using a combo of plugs and pellets of late but yesterday did a brew with only pellets. Whirlpooled liked a mad man after flameout and let the styrian goldings steep for 20 mins. Lovely clear run off. Tipped a bit less than usual and left maybe 1L of wort behind, maybe 1.5L.


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## haysie (7/2/08)

RobW said:


> This little jobby is claimed to screen out everything down to pellets and trub:
> 
> http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/TheHopStopper.pdf
> 
> View attachment 17506






Anyone have any experience with these? I would be interested IF they did stop pellets and break as claimed, then again how is it any different too braid?


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## oldbugman (7/2/08)

Massive surface area.


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## drsmurto (7/2/08)

Its like someone welded two sieves together and stuck a pipe in it............


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## SJW (7/2/08)

Unless u got too much time on yours hands or nothing else to build in your brewery I would not be putting too much energy into this. Whats the cost to budget for and extra litre of wort?

Steve


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## Thirsty Boy (8/2/08)

Except that its my brewery and I find it important.

Budget has nothing whatsoever to do with it, I get both my base malt and the majority of my hops for free; and I brew 21 litre batches in a 50L pot ... so I can budget for 29L of extra wort if I want to, I just don't want to.

I find it inelegant to waste so much recoverable wort and I am most pleased that people have chosen to help me explore some different ways of recovering it


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## AUHEAMIC (8/2/08)

I got a tip from a brewer recently that I havent tried yet but it might be worth trying.

Put the left overs in a sanitised 5 litre demijohn (or similar) and leave it over night to settle. The next day rack it into your fermenter.

Another thing you could do is bottle it and boil the bottles as you would when making tomato sauce. You could then use it to make a starter at some later date.


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## domonsura (8/2/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Except that its my brewery and I find it important.
> 
> Budget has nothing whatsoever to do with it, I get both my base malt and the majority of my hops for free; and I brew 21 litre batches in a 50L pot ... so I can budget for 29L of extra wort if I want to, I just don't want to.
> 
> I find it inelegant to waste so much recoverable wort and I am most pleased that people have chosen to help me explore some different ways of recovering it




I agree. I look at what's left in the bottom of the kettle in terms of 'glasses' and 'how many'. I do brew to get beer after all, and it seems pointless to start throwing it away so early in a brew.

And yes, with direct fired mashtuns, a lack of insulation is more appropriate. I'm about to put _removeable insulation_ on someone's tun for them because it's going to be gas fired.

I do find that on my own brewery, because the summers here are so 'lovely and warm' the beauty of insulation only really shines through in winter, when I start having issues with heat loss from every exposed surface without it. I rug up like a complete wimp during winter  so I do the same for my tun :lol:


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## Steve (8/2/08)

My wife found this when cleaning out her Great Aunts kitchen cupboards. Obviously some kind of kitchen implement.......soon as I saw it I thought...thats a filter. How could I fit this to my keg. Any ideas? Its made of aluminium.
Cheers
Steve


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## domonsura (8/2/08)

That there is the grounds bowl for a coffee percolator. I owned one of those brilliant little coffee kettles for ages until a flatmate moved out with it........they make the best coffee.....

I reckon fit it into the very centre at the bottom, flush against the bottom of the kettle with a pickup tube coming up from the centre hole to your outlet.


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## Steve (8/2/08)

Now that sounds like a plan! cheers Dom
Steve


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## TidalPete (8/2/08)

Steve said:


> My wife found this when cleaning out her Great Aunts kitchen cupboards. Obviously some kind of kitchen implement.......soon as I saw it I thought...thats a filter. How could I fit this to my keg. Any ideas? Its made of aluminium.
> Cheers
> Steve
> View attachment 17628
> ...



Perhaps with the ball valve on a bit of all thread + fibre washer + locking nut on the outside of kettle and 3mm insertion rubber (or similar) on the inside, then the filter & then the fibre washer + locknut inside of that to tighten the whole thing up. Sounds ok to me?
Anyway, let us all know how it goes. ATM I am just using the first version hop sock from CraftBrewer but an thinking of draining the whole lot out of the kettle through a termimesh filter sitting inside a ss conical sieve.

TP :beer:


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## Steve (8/2/08)

TidalPete said:


> Perhaps with the ball valve on a bit of all thread + fibre washer + locking nut on the outside of kettle and 3mm insertion rubber (or similar) on the inside, then the filter & then the fibre washer + locknut inside of that to tighten the whole thing up. Sounds ok to me?
> Anyway, let us all know how it goes. ATM I am just using the first version hop sock from CraftBrewer but an thinking of draining the whole lot out of the kettle through a termimesh filter sitting inside a ss conical sieve.
> 
> TP :beer:



that sounds even easier - thanks TP
Steve


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## haysie (8/2/08)

OldBugman said:


> Massive surface area.




No angle whatsoever in this question, other than , yes i throw good wort out, and i see two uses of this yankee hop stoppa, i.e mashtun and boiler.
Does the hop/trub/break surface area have to be smaller than "massive surface area"? i dont see the difference apart from one will get blocked before the other due too "surface area" if i am doing a big ipa 80+ ibu`s? because if it was bigger i.e more hop n shite than screened area then it would block? why would we all not be using this simple looking gadget other than expensive p/up tubes, hop stoppas, false bottoms etc.
Each to their own of course, but me 2 am interested in new ideas, albeit they are left field, out of the square or from overseas.
Haysie


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## rich_lamb (9/2/08)

I'm throwin my full weight (haha) behind Thirsty on this one - I hate the idea of wasting litres of well crafted beer in the kettle.
So a few thoughts from me on what I've tried and what I've yet to try...

1) The sand idea sounds good, but how much wort does the sand soak up? Trick would be to choose just coarse enough sand, like those very small river pebbles. You may end up losing the same wort without ever seeing it.

2) Any way you look at it, filtering seems to be the most common approach. And whatever filter you use the main problem is clogging. Hop stoppers work better than any small perforated jigger because they're bigger, and therefore clog less. Sand is about as big as you'd get. Hop flowers seem to be a nice natural solution, with the false bottom to give max filter area.

3) One way I've considered to reduce clogging is a blend of filtering and whirlpooling. You whirlpool, and carefully rack off the wort through a filter, which doesn't have to do much filtering until you reach the trub cone and therefore stays unclogged as long as possible?

4) I was trying to make something like a hopstopper out of locally sourced materials before I gave up as none of the suppliers would give me the time of day. There's a SS mesh called "termi mesh" used to stop termites which looks pretty good. Most wire suppliers have a range of fine meshes also. If anyone has a good source ?..

5) I do like that very simple suggestion of cooling the last litres in plastic bottles to settle the trub. Though it is an extra step. 

If given the choice between losing the beer or keeping the trub I'd probably lose the beer though. Trub carryover into the fermentor can cause problems when you're after a really clean flavour (eg. lagers), and you're gonna lose the beer anyway when you rack from the fermenter as nobody's going to filter that!


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## Thirsty Boy (24/2/08)

Well, a slight update on crazy trub separation ideas...

I didn't do the sand thing, although one of these days I am going to try it just for giggles. But I have done some post kettle filtration with a fair degree of success. I have a ruined 1micron pleated filter that previously helped me turn cloudy beer bright.. its currently doing no better than making them "less" hazy, so rather than throw it out, it has been demoted to wort filter.

I put it in the housing I use for my water filtration, between the kettle and the plate chiller. The theory being that these puppies also have massive surface area, probably more than you could get with an inside kettle application of any description, and even when obviously not working to capacity, a 1 micron filter is going to get rid of pretty much every last bit of hot break or hops... and as a bonus I can use it as a hop back should I so desire.

I wanted to make sure that it would work, the housing wouldn't melt mid cool and that I wouldn't get any flavour leeching from the plastic, so I did a test brew with 30L of boiling water, 250g of hop pellets and about 150g of carrageenan (to make it a little gummy) no actual wort, but plenty of other stuff to clog it up. And I took pictures... here they are.

A temporary pick-up tube drained the kettle almost to the bottom. No waiting for it to settle,no whirlpool was done, flame out, tap open. Whats left in there just fell to the bottom and stuck of its own accord while the kettle was draining.




Almost the whole thing drained out under gravity, it slowed down at about the 5-6L left mark and I hooked it up to the pump to go the rest of the way, just to see if that would work.. it did. This would be why it slowed down at the end!!! Thats a lot'o'hops






and all cleaned up. A soak in nappisan will restore it to white, not that I care.




A late in the cool sample (just before pump was connected) was taken and cooled for tasting. It was so bitter it was a little hard to tell, but I couldn't detect any plastic flavours at all and the housing took the heat without batting an eyelid.

I tried it out on an actual brew last weekend.. a 21L batch of Irish Red ale to 24IBUs. I fitted a proper all the way to the bottom pick-up and the filter handled the lesser amount of kettle goo with ridiculous ease on gravity alone; and with a little coaxing I lost less than 500ml of wort. Next time I will put a litre or so of cut/chase water into the kettle at end of cool to push the wort completely through the filter and the chiller, and the wort loss will be no more than the actual absorption of the hops.

Recoverable wort all recovered, plate filter safe from clogging and absolutely zero hot break into fermentor. An APA in the next week or two will test its abilities as hopback, but so far at least.. it seems all good.

Thirsty


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## shandy (17/12/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Been using a combo of plugs and pellets of late but yesterday did a brew with only pellets. Whirlpooled liked a mad man after flameout and let the styrian goldings steep for 20 mins. Lovely clear run off. Tipped a bit less than usual and left maybe 1L of wort behind, maybe 1.5L.



I'm pretty interested in this piece of kit if you reckon it works with only pellets. What sort of quantity of pellets were in your brew when you went all pellet? And at 2mm does it really stop the break material too? Do the hops build up around it and filter the break or is it managing to filter it on it's own. I'd gladly part with the money to get nice clear runoff but I want to be sure it's the right thing for me first.

So many questions :huh:


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## Thirsty Boy (18/12/08)

shandy said:


> I'm pretty interested in this piece of kit if you reckon it works with only pellets. What sort of quantity of pellets were in your brew when you went all pellet? And at 2mm does it really stop the break material too? Do the hops build up around it and filter the break or is it managing to filter it on it's own. I'd gladly part with the money to get nice clear runoff but I want to be sure it's the right thing for me first.
> 
> So many questions :huh:



well, dont bother with the filter housing thing... it worked a bit, but not really well. It might work with perhaps a less fine filter, but this one clogged up terribly and wort couldn't be forced through even with a pump after a couple of brews.. dammit.

I am back to whirlpooling (not that it does much...) and leaving behind 2-2.5L of wort. But I'm not happy about it. Less fussy these days about "chunks" because I am a No-chill convert and the plate chiller is a paper weight atm.


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## katzke (18/12/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> well, dont bother with the filter housing thing... it worked a bit, but not really well. It might work with perhaps a less fine filter, but this one clogged up terribly and wort couldn't be forced through even with a pump after a couple of brews.. dammit.
> 
> I am back to whirlpooling (not that it does much...) and leaving behind 2-2.5L of wort. But I'm not happy about it. Less fussy these days about "chunks" because I am a No-chill convert and the plate chiller is a paper weight atm.



Well I cannot help much with the filter but I have an idea to put the chiller to use.

Brew double batches in that big converted keg. Run off the first batch through the chiller and ferment. Then run the last off into a cube for no chill. Use some type of strainer to remove the chunks from the last runnings and let the rest settle in the cube.


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## Thirsty Boy (18/12/08)

nah.. I almost never do double batches. Single batches are too much for me really, I only do enough to fill a keg because I have kegs to fill, otherwise I would probably brew smaller batches.


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## shandy (18/12/08)

This has become my new mission as I brew a lot of lagers and clean clear wort into the fermenter is imperative to me, not to mention yeast reuse. Does anyone have any more info on the beer belly device? It's more expensive than an FB but with all that wasted wort anything that really works is going to pay for itself in no time.


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## Goofinder (18/12/08)

shandy said:


> Does anyone have any more info on the beer belly device? It's more expensive than an FB but with all that wasted wort anything that really works is going to pay for itself in no time.


The beerbelly hopscreen works great. I recently did a batch with all pellets and it even managed to stop the vast majority from getting into the cube. Also, now I've got a pickup tube on my urn I get a couple extra litres out which always helps :chug: There's basically just hop sludge left in the bottom now, with bugger all extra liquid.

Edit: Oh, and the 2mm spacing doesn't really make all that much difference because you have a pickup tube that sits at the bottom of the hopscreen. So you've got the outside of the hopscreen filtering out most of the crap, then even less making it into the pickup tube and into your cube/chiller.


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## rich_lamb (18/12/08)

Hey Thirsty - I'm going to give your "sand filter" a crack. I have this river sand that I normally use for the bottom of the aviary - it's a very course grade yet the pebbles are all well rounded, looks like quartz mostly. I buy it in 20kg bags from nurseries.
Anyway, not wanting to sacrifice a brew, I will test it first. And I need to recalibrate the kettle and such. My plan was to wash it first and boil it to get rid of any soluble minerals, fine particulate and other nasties.

Probably wash it again before I give it to the cocky.  

Let you know how it goes.


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## shandy (18/12/08)

Goofinder said:


> The beerbelly hopscreen works great. I recently did a batch with all pellets and it even managed to stop the vast majority from getting into the cube. Also, now I've got a pickup tube on my urn I get a couple extra litres out which always helps :chug: There's basically just hop sludge left in the bottom now, with bugger all extra liquid.



So with all pellets there was some transfer of pellet and break material to your fermenter?



> Edit: Oh, and the 2mm spacing doesn't really make all that much difference because you have a pickup tube that sits at the bottom of the hopscreen. So you've got the outside of the hopscreen filtering out most of the crap, then even less making it into the pickup tube and into your cube/chiller.



Do you mean there's another filter inside the device?


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## raven19 (18/12/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Hey Thirsty - I'm going to give your "sand filter" a crack. I have this river sand that I normally use for the bottom of the aviary - it's a very course grade yet the pebbles are all well rounded, looks like quartz mostly. I buy it in 20kg bags from nurseries.
> Anyway, not wanting to sacrifice a brew, I will test it first. And I need to recalibrate the kettle and such. My plan was to wash it first and boil it to get rid of any soluble minerals, fine particulate and other nasties.
> 
> Probably wash it again before I give it to the cocky.
> ...



B&T - I would presume a good boil and clean before use would be all that is needed. As its going to get boiled with the wort in the kettle yes?

The sand should not break down and is still inert at temperatures of approx 100 degrees (during boil) - if i recall from Geology correctly.

Keen to hear how it goes.


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## Thirsty Boy (18/12/08)

B&T, that'd be cool - I'll get around to trying this myself one day... but its a long way down the experiment list so it would have been a while. Love to hear what happens if you give it a go.

TB


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## Goofinder (18/12/08)

shandy said:


> So with all pellets there was some transfer of pellet and break material to your fermenter?


Very little makes it into the fermenter.



> Do you mean there's another filter inside the device?


No, just that any material that wants to get into the fermenter needs to get through the filter bed around the hopscreen, and make it into the pickup tube.


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## Bribie G (18/12/08)

I've been reading a 150 year old book on brewing and they nearly always used hop backs not only for the late hopping but as a filter so I'm thinking of using a cheapy 'hoppinator' that I'm designing, but I'll need a stainless steel funnel and can't seem to track one down either locally or on the web.

However if I can get one I'll give it a whirl next brew and see how the wort turns out, assuming my grand design doesn't clog up after the first couple of litres


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## drsmurto (18/12/08)

shandy said:


> I'm pretty interested in this piece of kit if you reckon it works with only pellets. What sort of quantity of pellets were in your brew when you went all pellet? And at 2mm does it really stop the break material too? Do the hops build up around it and filter the break or is it managing to filter it on it's own. I'd gladly part with the money to get nice clear runoff but I want to be sure it's the right thing for me first.
> 
> So many questions :huh:



Have done up to 250g of only pellets in the one batch. Clear as a bell going into the chiller, of course it comes out cloudy due to the cold break but thats a different story.

If i didnt tip then i would lose maybe 2-3L of wort. By tipping is get that down to 1-1.5L and the minute the runoff get cloudy i close the tap.

As for trub getting into the fermenter affecting your ability to re-use the yeast - wash it. I ferment on the cold break and still collect, wash and re-use my yeast multiple times.


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## raven19 (18/12/08)

BribieG said:


> I've been reading a 150 year old book on brewing and they nearly always used hop backs not only for the late hopping but as a filter so I'm thinking of using a cheapy 'hoppinator' that I'm designing, but I'll need a stainless steel funnel and can't seem to track one down either locally or on the web.
> 
> However if I can get one I'll give it a whirl next brew and see how the wort turns out, assuming my grand design doesn't clog up after the first couple of litres
> 
> View attachment 23337



Can you source food grade HDPE or similar that is heat resistant as an alternative?

I like the simplicity of it!!!


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## drsmurto (18/12/08)

A pyrex glass funnel would work just as well as stainless.....


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## OLDS2006 (18/12/08)

There was a ss funnel on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FUNNEL-STAINLESS-ST...A1%7C240%3A1318


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## shandy (18/12/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Have done up to 250g of only pellets in the one batch. Clear as a bell going into the chiller, of course it comes out cloudy due to the cold break but thats a different story.
> 
> If i didnt tip then i would lose maybe 2-3L of wort. By tipping is get that down to 1-1.5L and the minute the runoff get cloudy i close the tap.
> 
> As for trub getting into the fermenter affecting your ability to re-use the yeast - wash it. I ferment on the cold break and still collect, wash and re-use my yeast multiple times.



Ah, so your filtering the hops only with the beerbelly device and running your wort through a plate chiller straight into your fermenter. I have a whirlpool immersion setup so I'm recirculating through the outlet and back into the kettle throughout the cooling. Once it's chilled, I reconfigure and pump out to the fermenter. It's at that point that I want nice clear wort. Perhaps once it running out the hops around the filter device would filter the break material


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## Bribie G (18/12/08)

DrSmurto said:


> A pyrex glass funnel would work just as well as stainless.....






OLDS2006 said:


> There was a ss funnel on ebay
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FUNNEL-STAINLESS-ST...A1%7C240%3A1318



I originally thought SS because I was under the mistaken impression that there would be heaps of them out there, but apparently not. However I've found that there are plenty of not only Pyrex but also plastic funnels available from lab suppliers that can be autoclaved and withstand up to 120 degrees so I'll ring around. Probably more practical then SS at the end of the day.


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## drsmurto (18/12/08)

shandy said:


> Ah, so your filtering the hops only with the beerbelly device and running your wort through a plate chiller straight into your fermenter. I have a whirlpool immersion setup so I'm recirculating through the outlet and back into the kettle throughout the cooling. Once it's chilled, I reconfigure and pump out to the fermenter. It's at that point that I want nice clear wort. Perhaps once it running out the hops around the filter device would filter the break material



Hops _and_ the trub from the hot break. 

Plate chiller just looked like an easier option to me. Less hassle. Didnt have to build anything which suits my phobia of tools (both literal and metaphorical).

Whirlpool. Hook up plate chiller. Run thru plate chiller. Pitch yeast.  

If i want to separate the cold break from my ferment i can wait 15-20 mins after running it thru the plate chiller and then run it into another fermenter....... 

Not sure that people worry that much about fermenting on the cold break, i could be wrong tho....

As i said, i can easily separate the trub from the yeast when collecting the yeast cake after primary fermentation.


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## quantocks (18/12/08)

BribieG,



> Fallsdell stock a range of stainless steel funnels, and can also custom manufacture funnels to suit any requirement. Please use the enquiry form below to request more information





> Stainless Steel Funnel [76mm] 76
> 
> Stainless Steel Funnel [104mm] 104
> 
> ...








maybe give these dudes a call 

here


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## Bribie G (18/12/08)

Cheers Quantocks I've emailed them via their contact page.


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## Frank (18/12/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Hey Thirsty - I'm going to give your "sand filter" a crack. I have this river sand that I normally use for the bottom of the aviary - it's a very course grade yet the pebbles are all well rounded, looks like quartz mostly. I buy it in 20kg bags from nurseries.
> Anyway, not wanting to sacrifice a brew, I will test it first. And I need to recalibrate the kettle and such. My plan was to wash it first and boil it to get rid of any soluble minerals, fine particulate and other nasties.
> Probably wash it again before I give it to the cocky.
> Let you know how it goes.


A better filter bed would be with a smaller, more angular media, once the media starts to round off I ditch it. I use crushed basalt in large irrigation media filter, particle size 1.2-1.8mm. Can not comment on the taint issues though to put through beer production. This type of material can be bought commercially, that have been washed and screened. I have about a tonne that I will be replacing soon, so might save a bit if anyone wants to experiment. 
I think cleaning and storing the sand may become a PitA though.
Here's a PDF on sand filters I am talking about.
View attachment 4000_Series_Media_Filter_1_.pdf


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## kram (18/12/08)

Hey Bribie, will that be hot wort leaving the kettle through the funnel? If it is, there may be a risk of hot side aeration to the wort.


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## Bribie G (18/12/08)

kram said:


> Hey Bribie, will that be hot wort leaving the kettle through the funnel? If it is, there may be a risk of hot side aeration to the wort.


The piccie is for general reference only, in reality the spigot of the urn would be just about touching the spent hop bed and flowing gently on to it rather than splashing and bubbling, and I've included a racking cane / hose rather than letting it splash into the cube, so hopefully there won't be too much oxygen take up. Also with darker ales being drunk young I understand that HSA isn't as much of an issue as with, for example, light beers for lagering and long storage.


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## kram (18/12/08)

Ah thanks for clarifying, looks like you've got it covered.


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## Tony (18/12/08)

I just use a false battom. ITs only kight guage. I tried it in the mash and it buckled.

So i tried it in the kettle to see if it would hold pellets, and it does. I drain slowly by only cracking the tap.

I get maybe 10% of the hops and break in the cube...... some at the start and a bit at the end

And i get every last drop!

Im thinking of taking my old 18 gallon keg with the "grand canyon" bottom to an engineering shop to have a nice curved base welded into it so i can do the same in it as well.

cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (19/12/08)

Dammit Tony - You are just rubbing it in there. Why does that sort of stuff work for other people. Every time I have tried a filter screen, false bottom.. anything like that, it either clogs almost immediately and nothing gets through, or it lets so much trub through that its not worth the bother.

Must be just me and my mechanical ineptitude.... bugger it.

TB


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## shandy (19/12/08)

Tony said:


> I just use a false battom. ITs only kight guage. I tried it in the mash and it buckled.
> 
> So i tried it in the kettle to see if it would hold pellets, and it does. I drain slowly by only cracking the tap.
> 
> ...



What's the diameter of the perforations in that false bottom Tony? Pumpy reckons the one he has stops the lot and I'm leaning towards the false bottom solution myself but you're getting some hops and break through yours so I'm wondering what the difference is.


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## Tony (19/12/08)

The holes are roughly 1.75 to 2 mm. 

Yeah i get a bit through, but its only a tad. maybe 5g out of 100g of hops....... bugger all really. And it makes no real difference to the beer. 

The upside is i recover every drop of wort from the kettle.

I turn off the gas and direct a fan on the base of the kettle (while its still sitting on its stand over the burner) to cool the rim of the converted "vessel". I let it cool for 10 min and lift it up on the bench. A quick stir to form a rough wirlpool, let it settle for 5 min and start draining.

The trick is to get it running with a full tube without fast flow. I let it run out slowly by just cracking the outlet valve and pinching the tube about half way down so it fills with wort. When its full from the pinch to the top i let it go slowly so it runs out and pushes all the air out. You will get a bit of hops that was under the FB but within a few seconds it runns clear till the end.

A slow flow, taking 5 min to fill a 25 liter cube will see it stay clear.

Patience grasshopper, patience!

cheers


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## shandy (19/12/08)

Tony said:


> The holes are roughly 1.75 to 2 mm.
> 
> Yeah i get a bit through, but its only a tad. maybe 5g out of 100g of hops....... bugger all really. And it makes no real difference to the beer.
> 
> ...




Sounds pretty good. Since I chill I'd be hoping that the hop bed would create a filter for the break material too. If it works and it only pulls the unwanted that's under the FB I could be sold on it.


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## Tony (19/12/08)

Well thats my plan for the 18 galloong keg kettle.

The hops will sink faster to form a filter bed for the break

I do this currently witrh a dodgy SS mesh FB and it works to a point but a large surface area FB would work much much better.

As you can see the FB above is much more efficient. The dodgy mesh one is all i can fit tin the rotton odd shaped base of the 18 gallon keg and i get more hops and break in the fermenter. Still doesnt make any difference as it sinks and the beer is racked off it when done. Also loose a liter or 2 in the kettle as it blocks and sucks air at the end before it can slowly drain through.

Surface area is the key i think...... size does matter 

cheers


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## rich_lamb (19/12/08)

Yeah, Thirsty has the truth of it - it looks like a nice simple solution (how can it possibly work so well!); if the gravel doesn't work I'm going to a Tony-type screen. Reducing the scudge to 5 or 10% would be fine by me and I do like that "every last drop" claim. Perhaps those large holes are an advantage when it comes to clogging?

I think the trick to any internal filter is the low flow rate as Tony says; you need to settle your mass of trub carefully without too much vacuum. Same as with sparging generally. Randy Mosher (Radical Brewing) goes on about this at length.

Thanks for the tip Boston; I was gonna try with the sand I have just to test the concept. Optimise later. I was also hoping my pre-eroded "river" sand would be extremely neutral and not shed much grit. We'll see


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## shandy (19/12/08)

Tony said:


> Well thats my plan for the 18 galloong keg kettle.
> 
> The hops will sink faster to form a filter bed for the break
> 
> ...



Toss a few whole hop flowers into the mix and you've got yourself a pretty good filter bed then I reckon.

Looks like a 9" false bottom could be on my post xmas shopping list. If anyone knows of the best kind for the job shout out. The only ones I know of are the More Beer ones that Grain and Grape carry.


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## Tony (19/12/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> you need to settle your mass of trub carefully without too much vacuum. Same as with sparging generally.



Hit the nail on the head!

As for hop flowers........ it was origionaly built to handle them and i thought........ i wonder if it will hold pellets......... and it did.

Hop flowers really show how they catch the hot break!

here is a small amount of Sothern Cross used to bitter a Doppelbock.

cheers


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## rich_lamb (22/12/08)

Well Thirsty, you are a genius after all  - I tested the sand filter and it works brilliantly.

My test used a reduced boil size of 15L, and no malt so there are assumptions about hot break.
The sand I have looks like this (after being rinsed several times):




My pickup tube is a pretty basic affair - just a copper elbow that points to the bottom of the kettle. 
But for this I wrapped it in stainless gauze (which I borrowed from my mash tun). 
It's a bit long but does the job of excluding the sand:




So with about 1.5L of the sand spread in the bottom of the kettle:




I added the 15L of water, got her up to the boil - which all behaved as per normal - and added a selection of hop pellets I had in the fridge.
In this case I used:
21g of cascade @ 6.7%
34g of fuggles @ 3.9%

which should be pretty representative of a typical brew in terms of sheer mass of hop pellets. 
Who really cares about how bitter my water ends up being right?
Boiled for about 5-10 minutes, flame out and then run off into the cube.

I reduced the runoff rate: very slow to start, then a bit faster such that it fully drained in about 10-15 minutes.

At the end, I had extracted "every last drop" of hopped water, with it's greenish tinge, and all the pellet residue was left behind:




The liquid in the cube has now cooled quite a bit - it's been there about an hour - and the amount of residue that's settled out is miniscule. Barely a dusting on the bottom of the cube.

So it seems to work as well as a Tony screen; and I guess there's other ways of doing it also, though I think Tony is right in the secret is the rate you drain the kettle to not clog up your filter.

cheers,
B&T

PS: no water wasted - all tank water, which seems to be falling from the sky for free in great abundance right now


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## Pumpy (22/12/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Well Thirsty, you are a genius after all  - I tested the sand filter and it works brilliantly.
> 
> My test used a reduced boil size of 15L, and no malt so there are assumptions about hot break.
> The sand I have looks like this (after being rinsed several times):
> ...


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## Thirsty Boy (23/12/08)

well bugger me - it works. It might not be practical, but it does seem to be effective.

Perhaps a wee flywire mesh baggie of the stuff might even be practical in a weird sort of way - probably not but who knows.

Did it effect the boil at all?

Pumpy ... seems that sand/gravel is effective at filtering out all sorts of stuff 

Cheers for trying that B&T

Thirsty


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## Pumpy (23/12/08)

I am your biggest fan Thirsty, Merry Christmas 

Pumpy


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## Tony (23/12/08)

Did you wash the sand/gravel out afterwards? Was it easy to clean up?

Cant think of a better use for cascade and fuggles!!! :lol: h34r: 

Good work folks!

cheers


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## rich_lamb (23/12/08)

Well it's not that impractical - just a bit of rinsing of sand involved. I did rinse it afterwards and the hops come out quite easily, so I put the sand in an old hopsock to dry.

It didn't affect the boil other than a slight crackling noise as the bubbles come through the sand - the sand pretty much stays put though.

I'll use it a few times until something better presents - its a pretty cheap and easy solution for now!


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## SJW (23/12/08)

Do u need to recirculate the cooled wort for long through the sand bed?
And that looks more like the gravel you use infish tanks?

Steve


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## Tony (23/12/08)

I thought the same thing steve...... fishtank gravel

cheers


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## rich_lamb (23/12/08)

Come ta think of it, yeah it's like some fishtank gravels - most fishtank gravel is a bit finer than this stuff. But I doubt it would make much difference.

I didn't recirculate at all - just turned on the tap slowly, running straight into the cube.


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