# Wheat doesn't make beer tart



## verysupple (18/7/14)

After many (eight - too many?) attempts at brewing a great Bavarian style weissbier I'm still researching the subject and brewing with wheat in general. One thing that keeps popping up in threads here and on other sites is that wheat (raw more so than malted) gives a tart quality to beer (sometimes known as "da tang"). Now my palate isn't perfect, but I've never had a commercial version of any wheat based ale (witbier, weissbier etc) that was tart. They're crisp and dry, but not tart. I've also never had a tart character from any of my home brewed wheat beers.

I'd like to know where this myth started, but really just want to get the message out there that wheat doesn't add tartness to beer. What are people doing to get this tart character? Letting it go sour? Anyway, if your wheat beers are tart/sour/have "da tang" they're probably infected or you did some crazy stuff with your water chemistry (i.e. too much lactic acid or acid malt).


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## mje1980 (18/7/14)

Yeast fermented at cooler temps can enhance phenols, which can be perceived as tart. 


There are some long time posters who brew lots of wheat beers that will chime in I'm sure.


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## indica86 (18/7/14)

Haha, my Rosella Wheat is a tart. Easy and fizzy and goes down well.


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## Lakey (18/7/14)

May come down to people's pallets, what one finds tart doesn't necessarily mean the next person tastes it.


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## GalBrew (18/7/14)

I do find that German wheat beers can have a note that I would describe as tart. Not the same a mild sourness or a lacto/acetic etc tartness, but tart nonetheless. I have no idea what causes this impression of tartness (as I don't think it is an actual sourness), but I would be looking at the yeast. Phenolic positive yeast can do some strange things....adds to the mystery I guess.


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## verysupple (18/7/14)

GalBrew said:


> I do find that German wheat beers can have a note that I would describe as tart. Not the same a mild sourness or a lacto/acetic etc tartness, but tart nonetheless. I have no idea what causes this impression of tartness (as I don't think it is an actual sourness), but I would be looking at the yeast. Phenolic positive yeast can do some strange things....adds to the mystery I guess.


Well, according to the Oxford dictionary:

*tart*
*1* sour. *2 *sharp in manner, _a tart reply._

So we agree the beers aren't sour, and *2 * isn't refering to flavour or taste sensation. So wheat doesn't make beer tart.


EDIT: And if there is any tartness in these beers from phenolics then that's most likely still nothing to do with the wheat. Good to see someone's thinking about it, though.


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## verysupple (18/7/14)

Lakey said:


> May come down to people's pallets, what one finds tart doesn't necessarily mean the next person tastes it.


That's true. But I'm very sensitive to tart/sour flavours. I can't stand 'sour worms' or other sour lollies, don't like lemon/lime on fish and even hate salt and vinegar chips. If I'm not picking up tart/sourness in these beers then I don't think it's there.


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## GalBrew (18/7/14)

I never said wheat makes beer tart. I put wheat in most of my beers and they are not tart at all. What I did say was that German wheat beers, specifically hefeweizens can (not always) have a tart note to them. Also I agree it is not the same tartness in a sour beer (although I would just call that sour), however 'tart' is still the best description I can come up with. 

If someone can come up with a better term for what I am talking about (and I am not alone here) then I am all ears.


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## Not For Horses (18/7/14)

Not really sure here but could it have something to do with ferulic acid rest employed by many wheat beer brewers? I know that ferulic acid is a precursor to the clove phenolics but does it also add that tartness?


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## verysupple (18/7/14)

Most experts agree that tartness/sourness is intimately related to pH. Maybe the high carbonation and in turn high carbonic acid (acids lower pH remember) have something to do with the perception of tartness?

And again, just to reiterate, if that's the case then wheat has nothing to do with it.


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## verysupple (18/7/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Not really sure here but could it have something to do with ferulic acid rest employed by many wheat beer brewers? I know that ferulic acid is a precursor to the clove phenolics but does it also add that tartness?


In theory ferulic acid could add to a sensation of tartness, but in reality there is such a small amount of ferulic acid left in a finished beer that it wouldn't matter. Also, while the ferulic acid rest is common for weissbiers it's not usually used for witbiers (which use raw wheat witch is supposedly more likely to give tartness), so I don't think that's it.

EDIT: Spelling


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/14)

I always found wheat can be more spicy than tart


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## mje1980 (19/7/14)

I could go a spicy tart at this time of the morning


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## Screwtop (19/7/14)

verysupple said:


> After many (eight - too many?) attempts at brewing a great Bavarian style weissbier I'm still researching the subject and brewing with wheat in general. One thing that keeps popping up in threads here and on other sites is that wheat (raw more so than malted) gives a tart quality to beer (sometimes known as "da tang"). Now my palate isn't perfect, but I've never had a commercial version of any wheat based ale (witbier, weissbier etc) that was tart. They're crisp and dry, but not tart. I've also never had a tart character from any of my home brewed wheat beers.
> 
> I'd like to know where this myth started, but really just want to get the message out there that wheat doesn't add tartness to beer. What are people doing to get this tart character? Letting it go sour? Anyway, if your wheat beers are tart/sour/have "da tang" they're probably infected or you did some crazy stuff with your water chemistry (i.e. too much lactic acid or acid malt).


Of the commercial examples you've tried, where where they made? If they were from German breweries, where in Germany? Remember Berliner Weisse is a style which exhibits a sour, tart, fruity character. This is achieved more by brewing methods than the content of wheat. Wheat beers from the South or Bavaria (Weissebiers rather than Weizens of the North) can finish a little sweet with more banana than the tart/cloviness of Northern Weizens. 



GalBrew said:


> I do find that German wheat beers can have a note that I would describe as tart. Not the same a mild sourness or a lacto/acetic etc tartness, but tart nonetheless. I have no idea what causes this impression of tartness (as I don't think it is an actual sourness), but I would be looking at the yeast. Phenolic positive yeast can do some strange things....adds to the mystery I guess.


Yep!



Not For Horses said:


> Not really sure here but could it have something to do with ferulic acid rest employed by many wheat beer brewers? I know that ferulic acid is a precursor to the clove phenolics but does it also add that tartness?


Yep!



verysupple said:


> In theory ferulic acid could add to a sensation of tartness, but in reality there is such a small amount of ferulic acid left in a finished beer that it wouldn't matter. Also, while the ferulic acid rest is common for weissbiers it's not usually used for witbiers (which use raw wheat witch is supposedly more likely to give tartness), so I don't think that's it.
> 
> EDIT: Spelling


Correct, some wheat brewing styles use a Ferulic Rest and others don't. I prefer to not use the rest as it produces more of a North German Weizen ............ a little too clovey/tart for my liking. For a Weissbier style I use ale malt not Pils 50/50 with pale malted wheat, a single infusion at 68° and a higher FG around GU 52. Fermented using a Bavarian wheat yeast this produces a nice Bavarian Style finish, a little sweeter with a lower wheatiness/cloviness and more isoamyl acetate in the aroma.

Screwy


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## stakka82 (19/7/14)

I only ever get tartness when using wheat in conjunction with a wit yeast.


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## verysupple (20/7/14)

Screwtop said:


> Of the commercial examples you've tried, where where they made? If they were from German breweries, where in Germany? Remember Berliner Weisse is a style which exhibits a sour, tart, fruity character. This is achieved more by brewing methods than the content of wheat. Wheat beers from the South or Bavaria (Weissebiers rather than Weizens of the North) can finish a little sweet with more banana than the tart/cloviness of Northern Weizens.


Admittedly I haven't had many from the north. Probably the most northern is Schofferhofer from Frankfurt. Yes, Berliner weisse is clearly tart or sour, but as you say that's not from the ingredients but from the way it's brewed. It's intentionally soured. If wheat automatically made the beer sour they wouldn't need to do anything to _make_ it happen.

Maybe the misconception that wheat makes beer tart comes from there being a few styles that can be slightly tart (or quite sour in the case of Berliner weisse) that have wheat in them, which happens to be a conincidence as the tartness in all these styles comes from either lactic souring in the mash or is yeast derived. You could make a 100% wheat beer with a single infusion mash at normal sacc. temps and ferment it with a POF- yeast strain and it won't be tart. Therefore, wheat isn't the cause.


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## n87 (20/7/14)

i recon its just to do with the carbonation. that the only hint of 'tart'iness that i have from heffeweizens.

have a taste of soda water, thats the 'off/different/out-of-place' taste i get


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## Screwtop (20/7/14)

verysupple said:


> Admittedly I haven't had many from the north. Probably the most northern is Schofferhofer from Frankfurt. Yes, Berliner weisse is clearly tart or sour, but as you say that's not from the ingredients but from the way it's brewed. It's intentionally soured. If wheat automatically made the beer sour they wouldn't need to do anything to _make_ it happen.
> 
> Maybe the misconception that wheat makes beer tart comes from there being a few styles that can be slightly tart (or quite sour in the case of Berliner weisse) that have wheat in them, which happens to be a conincidence as the tartness in all these styles comes from either lactic souring in the mash or is yeast derived. You could make a 100% wheat beer with a single infusion mash at normal sacc. temps and ferment it with a POF- yeast strain and it won't be tart. Therefore, wheat isn't the cause.


Well!!! So long at the diastatic power of the wheat malt is 35 °Lintner or above you could. 

Also wheat must contribute as people don't notice this clovey/tartness in beers without wheat. There are a few commercial examples which use 30% wheat malt in the grainbill and ferment using other than wheat yeast strains, but I can notice a very slight clove/tartness in the beer. Many use 5% - 10% wheat to improve foam retention but I would say most experienced brewers could pick wheat above 20% in a beer. 





n87 said:


> i recon its just to do with the carbonation. that the only hint of 'tart'iness that i have from heffeweizens.
> 
> have a taste of soda water, thats the 'off/different/out-of-place' taste i get


= Carbonic Acid, why all beers have a perceived increase in bitterness once carbonated.

Screwy


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