# B I A B Step Mash



## Ginger NZ (23/9/08)

Has anyone here done a step mash using BIAB?

I had a chat with another prospective BIABer and he mentioned that he was interested in brewing lagers. I've watched a few youtube clips on the theory behind step and decoction mashes and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be possible to strike and then rest, then raise the temp to mashing temps. 

So, can anyone bring the science and tell me why it's a bad idea? Any gotchas that they've encountered


----------



## phonos (23/9/08)

I've done a step mash on a bohemian lager - 50 degrees for 20 mins then 66C for 60mins. There was issues with the water chemistry which lead to a hazy beer (I get this with all my pale beers due to alkaline water). Apart from the appearance, the beer turned out great. Just ensure your bag isn't on the base of the pot when you raise the temperature.


----------



## seemax (23/9/08)

You could also do a step mash via multiple water additions. For example, start with a 2.5L/kg ratio for the initial 50C rest, followed by another addition to get to 66C. It does slightly defeat the purpose of BIAB in that it's not a full volume, one pot deal, but... my bag sits on the bottom of the pot and it's easier to add hot water than to heat it up on stove.


----------



## PistolPatch (23/9/08)

Have done a few of these Ginger.

It's a very easy process with a skyhook, rope and the paint stirrer type mash paddle.

When raising the temp, put your paddle in the bag and then lift the bag high enough so it is not touching the bottom. When you reach the desired step temp, lower the bag again and just give the stirrer a little jiggle up and down to make sure the mash is of even temp.

Monitor your temp and if you need to add more heat, just raise the bag.

This method of leaving the paddle in the bag is handy for those who like to step up to 72 and/or 78 as well.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## RobB (23/9/08)

seemax said:


> You could also do a step mash via multiple water additions. For example, start with a 2.5L/kg ratio for the initial 50C rest, followed by another addition to get to 66C. It does slightly defeat the purpose of BIAB in that it's not a full volume, one pot deal, but... my bag sits on the bottom of the pot and it's easier to add hot water than to heat it up on stove.



I've done this and it worked a treat. I have an urn at home but it only takes 8 litres. However, if I use it three times and calculate my volumes correctly, I get protein and saccharification rests followed by mash-out. Saves gas too!


----------



## Hashie (24/9/08)

I step mash all my brews.

Generally start at 54 for 15 minutes then step up to 65 for 60 minutes followed by mashout at 77 for 20 minutes.
I don't bother lifting the bag, I just use the paint stirrer/mash paddle thingy to keep everything agitated while the flame is on.
Never had a problem doing this.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (25/9/08)

and if you want to play the decoction game - BiaB makes it easier (sort of)

You gather up the bag from one edge only and it slowly raises the whole grainbed up to the top of the pot - then its really easy to scoop out the "solid" portion of the mash which is what you want in your decoction vessel anyway.

But... you have to add heat to the main brew via your burner as well - the greater mash volume means that the decocted portion wont raise the temps by nearly as much as in a traditional mash.

Play with the brewing software and it isn't too hard to crunch the numbers and hit your temps - but life is too short for frequent decoctions - they are an occasional pleasure for when I am feeling particularly masochistic.

TB


----------



## sumo (25/9/08)

I'm the other brewer Ginger is talking about, we had a good discussion about BIAB the other day, and I am looking forward to giving it a good try. 

After reading the BIAB thread I have just got to the point where I have a vessel big enough to take a full volume, and a burner to run it. One last thing to buy is the rack for the bottom so the grain bag has about 50 - 100mm clearence from the bottom of the keggle.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (25/9/08)

There is some debate about whether that rack is needed or not..... if you are careful when adding heat, lots of people are getting away with no rack at all.

Oh - and on teh step mashing front. With the large volume being heated, the steps are more like long gentle ramps. I would be very inclined to trade some of my "rest" time in exchange for some of the ramp time.

so as an example instead of

56 for 10min
step to 66
66 for 60 min

I would be thinking 

56 for 5min
ramp to 66 over 15min
66 for 50min

and maybe even consider increasing any sach rest temps by one or two - because the mash spends a reasonable amount of times at teh lower sach temps on teh way up.

Its going to be a case of start at a traditional step regime - and tweak from there.

TB


----------



## Hashie (25/9/08)

I see what you are saying thirsty, but I think a lot depends on the set up.

For me, it is only a 5 - 7 minute "ramp". I have no problem stirring the mash for a few minutes while the temp comes up to the next rest.

Nor do I use a rack to protect the bag. I find the bag floats while heating to the first rest temp (this is where I add the grain). Subsequent heat additions simply require the grain bed being stirred/agitated to keep it off the bottom and therefore protected from direct heat.


----------



## sumo (25/9/08)

I was going to do a dry run this weekend before committing grain to the pot, however I may as well put the gumboots on and jump in because if I read any more I am liable to became an expert of the theory and never have touched completed a BIAB.

I anticipated my first run as follows:

My receipe: (Munich Helles)

Ingredients 
4.50 kg Pale Malt (Weyermann) 
0.15 kg Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
20 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 12.5 IBU 
15 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (15 min) Hops 8.8 IBU 
15 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (5 min) Hops 1.2 IBU 
1 Pkgs Danish Lager (Wyeast Labs #2042) Yeast-Lager 


- hit 57-58 using 30 litre (expecting 5 - 7 litre loss) boil then add 4.65kg grain (@ about 20) I should get 55.
- hold 5 - 10 min, then raise to 66 over 5 - 10 min (ever the optimist!).
- hold @ 66 for 50 - 60min (depending on time to rest and ramp.)
- raise to 77 for 20 min mash out.

- 60 min boil with above hop schedule

- no chill (as immersion chiller not ready yet)

Well I'll be off to my local craft brewer for my grains (and a beer) and hopefully have a brew day early next week .

Thanks for the information guys, I'll try to remember either to take photos or video.


----------



## Damian44 (25/9/08)

I hope it all goes well for you sumo. Im planning my first AG very soon too. What size and shape pot do you have? Arn't you suppose to start with 38 liters of water. Thats a loss of 15 litres. I have a 80 litre stock pot thats very wide. Im planning on starting with 40 liters and leaving the lid half on.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (25/9/08)

Hashie said:


> I see what you are saying thirsty, but I think a lot depends on the set up.
> 
> For me, it is only a 5 - 7 minute "ramp". I have no problem stirring the mash for a few minutes while the temp comes up to the next rest.
> 
> Nor do I use a rack to protect the bag. I find the bag floats while heating to the first rest temp (this is where I add the grain). Subsequent heat additions simply require the grain bed being stirred/agitated to keep it off the bottom and therefore protected from direct heat.



Yeah, thats why I was sort of trying to state it as a range rather than a "you should shorten your rests by this much..."

So it'd definitely depend on how fast you can get heat into the system. Very much longer than your 5-7mins though and I'd be starting to think about shortening rest times and adjust rest temperatures. Even at say ten minutes to get from 56-66 thats 5ish minutes in the commonly recognised sachrification zone, but at the really low end of it, and when yo consider how many posts I've seen saying that conversion is virtually completed in 15-20mins... thats to 25-33% of your most effective conversion time spent at lower temps than you intend with a given rest temperature.

Anyway, it all sorts itself out in the wash once you've done a few brews, tasted the results and fed them back into your process - definitely an "experience" rather than a "theory" thing... just something to consider thats all.

TB


----------



## Ginger NZ (25/9/08)

Thanks for the replies. I'm hoping to get going with this at the weekend.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (25/9/08)

sumo said:


> I was going to do a dry run this weekend before committing grain to the pot, however I may as well put the gumboots on and jump in because if I read any more I am liable to became an expert of the theory and never have touched completed a BIAB.
> 
> I anticipated my first run as follows:
> 
> ...




Its my opinion that you don't need to leave the mash at Mash/out temps for the 20mins - in BiaB the Mash out really isn't for the same reasons a mash out is for in a traditional system. Its really not a mash out at all, its just raising the whole mash to sparge temperatures before you conduct your lauter - to increase the solubility of the sugars and decrease the viscosity of the liquid a little. Basically it means that your "lautering" step, ie pulling out the bag, is happening at the right temperature. No mash out and you are trying to lauter 10 cooler than everyone else in the brewing world does.

You have no need for the traditional mashout rest, because thats all about stabilising fermentability during a long lauter - and your lauter takes a couple of minutes not a couple of hours.

So when I BiaB - I bring the mash up to 78C, then pull the bag immediately, half the time I don't even turn the burner off - just get the grain out of the pot and let it continue on its merry way to the boil while I am buggering about with the bag.

You might as well cut the 15-20mins out of your brew day and spend a little more time drinking instead of brewing

Thirsty


----------



## sumo (26/9/08)

Damian44 said:


> I hope it all goes well for you sumo. Im planning my first AG very soon too. What size and shape pot do you have? Arn't you suppose to start with 38 liters of water. Thats a loss of 15 litres. I have a 80 litre stock pot thats very wide. Im planning on starting with 40 liters and leaving the lid half on.



Hi Damian

I have a converted 50 litre keg. From what I have read of the theory in BIAB it says you lose about .75 litres of water to grain absorption and and 15% per hour to boil. So I believe I'll lose about 5 - 7 litres being optimistic. I only need 19 - 20 litres for the keg, so this run will give me a good indication of the volume needed in the future.



Thirsty Boy said:


> You might as well cut the 15-20mins out of your brew day and spend a little more time drinking instead of brewing
> 
> Thirsty



I like your style... it's a done deal!


----------



## reviled (26/9/08)

Good to see 2 kiwis getting into BIAB on the same weekend B) Best of luck guys!


----------



## sumo (26/9/08)

reviled said:


> Good to see 2 kiwis getting into BIAB on the same weekend B) Best of luck guys!



I'm blaming you for this.... my wife will not be happy with you.


----------



## reviled (26/9/08)

sumo said:


> I'm blaming you for this.... my wife will not be happy with you.



:lol: lol, I can handle that :lol: Its worth it...

Is this James P?


----------



## sumo (26/9/08)

reviled said:


> :lol: lol, I can handle that :lol: Its worth it...
> 
> Is this James P?



That's me! Ginger is Rusty.


----------



## reviled (26/9/08)

sumo said:


> That's me! Ginger is Rusty.



:huh: Geez, cant you keep one name and be happy with it


----------



## reviled (29/9/08)

So how did you guys go this weekend? All good I hope...


----------



## moetman (1/10/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Ihalf the time I don't even turn the burner off - just get the grain out of the pot and let it continue on its merry way to the boil while I am buggering about with the bag.



What sort of buggering about are you doing with the bag Thirsty ? Rinsing?


----------



## Thirsty Boy (1/10/08)

moetman said:


> What sort of buggering about are you doing with the bag Thirsty ? Rinsing?



Various things - tossing it in a bucket, hanging it up to drain, giving it a squeeze, emptying and cleaning... some or all of those things. Usually just squeezing (while its still hanging over the kettle) and emptying/cleaning though.

No reason the flame cant be on flat chat from the moment your bag is clear of the wort - as long as you can still work around the kettle without burning your nads off if it is.

Rinsing the bag ( I assume you mean in order to extract more sugar) is in the "advanced" BiaB bag of tricks and is only necessary if you are an efficiency freak who insists on getting better than 80% mash efficiency. It also makes life a lot harder and necessitates more equipment - I virtually never bother with it.

TB


----------



## bennyc (26/10/08)

Malty Cultural said:


> I've done this and it worked a treat. I have an urn at home but it only takes 8 litres. However, if I use it three times and calculate my volumes correctly, I get protein and saccharification rests followed by mash-out. Saves gas too!



So I take it that you work out your strike water volume and addition volumes to roughly bring it up to your desired boil volume (and using software to calculate the temps needed)? Are there any problems that using a smaller volume to begin with might cause (can't think of any, but just in case...)?


----------



## RobB (27/10/08)

bennyc said:


> So I take it that you work out your strike water volume and addition volumes to roughly bring it up to your desired boil volume (and using software to calculate the temps needed)? Are there any problems that using a smaller volume to begin with might cause (can't think of any, but just in case...)?



What BIABers call a 'smaller volume' would be perfectly normal to brewers using traditonal methods. I certainly haven't encountered any problems so far.

I just use the equations in Palmer's How To Brew. I know how much I want to end up with in the kettle and how much I'm adding with each 'dump' from the urn, so I work it out backwards.

I start my boil with about 27 litres. Accounting for water retained by the grain, this means that I'll have added 30 litres of water over the course of the mash.

8 litres of this volume (the final urn dump) comes from the mashout step, so my saccharification rest uses 22 litres of water for 5kg of grain. That's an L:G ratio of 4.4 which is high for a traditional masher and low for a BIABer. Either way, it works for me.

Now that I think about it, if I take out the second urn dump (another 8 litres), my protein rest volume is 14 litres for an L:G of 2.8 which is perfectly normal for traditional mashers. So I don't encounter any problems which a good stir can't fix.


----------



## time01 (11/10/15)

attempted my first BIAB step mash yesterday, and even though I did a lot of stirring, when I went to lift the bag out at the end of the mash, I had managed to burn the bottom of pot a little and split the bag. I was thinking of just putting a wire rack or something similar at the bottom of pot and sit the bag on top of it for the entire mash, any other suggestions? apart from raising bag when raising temp?


----------



## Bribie G (11/10/15)

Kitchen shop.
Curved roasting rack.


----------



## Alex.Tas (12/10/15)

I just use some bulldog clips and clip the bag to the side of my electric urn at a height where the bottom of the bag cannot reach the heating element. Four clips seem to do the job. I'm not too sure how well this would work for gas fired though (I'm not sure what you use). I don't see any real problems so long as you aren't getting too much heat up the side of the kettle which may melt/burn the bag as it hangs over the side. 

I was going to get a wire rack then couldn't find a true stainless one (most are plated and i didn't want to have to replace it every now and again due to corrosion). I tried the bulldog clips and it works fine. It also means that i can shift the bag to the side of the pot, and then scrape the concealed element during steps - which is of vital importance if you want to do a protein, BG or acid rest. 

Now days I add boiling water to move up from a protein rest, and then use the element to move from beta to alpha/mash out. It is more messing around and equipment to add the boiling water, but it suits me fine as I already had a Big W pot anyway.


----------



## GrumpyPaul (12/10/15)

When I was BIABing I found a perforated pizza tray upside down was perfect to cover the element.

Like this

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-Steel-Pizza-trays-10-inch-10-size-with-holes-perforated-/291581431201?hash=item43e39b8da1

or these come in different sizes

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3x-Pizza-Pan-Tray-230mm-9-Aluminium-Perforated-Plate-Round-Oven-Tray-/301383338090?hash=item462bd8c86a


----------



## pajs (12/10/15)

I BIAB small volumes in a big pot. Easy enough to use one hand to lift the bag, the other to measure temperature while the gas ramps it up to the next point. I step mash almost all my brews now, even if just adding a single 78c or so 10 minute mash out rest period. Instead of stirring the grain inside the bag, swishing it around in the water seems to work well during the ramp ups.


----------



## mje1980 (13/10/15)

I use pegs to hold the bag up off th bottom during a step. I have a gas fired keggle. 3 pegs hold it up just fine. I lift up, peg, then light the gas. Occasionally one will drop in but it's easy to fish them out.


----------

