# How to get started in Cider. The definitive(ish) guide to beginner&#39



## Airgead

*The missus wants me to brew cider for her. Can I do that?*

Sure you can. Cider is easy. It's even easier than beer.

*Cool! She wants something like Rekorderlig. Can I do that?*

That's a bit harder. Those ciders need a bunch of extra processing to make them come out so sweet. Its really hard to make something like Rekorderlig but you can make a really nice cider.

*Humm... Ok... will it still get me laid?*

Absolutely.

*Sweet! Ok so how do I start?*

Easy. All you need is apple juice and yeast. Any apple juice will do as long as its preservative free. 

*Juice and yeast. Is that all?*

Yep.

*What juice? Do I need to pick apples?*

Get the best, most flavourful juice you can. Because juice is the main ingredient in a cider, it contributes more than anythign else to the flavour. Get the best you can. Picking apples allows you to blend the juice from different types to tweak the flavour but you can make a fine cider from regular apple juice.

*So supermarket juice is OK?*

Yep. Bear in mind though that really good ciders are made from special cider apples, not regular apple juice so while it will make a good cider, it won't make a great cider. Cider apples are hard to find here unless you live in apple country or grow them yourself. You can approximate cider apples by blending several types of eating and cooking apples together. If you want really great cider, you will need to go pick apples. But supermarket juice is a great place to start.

*What yeast would you recommend?*

Beer gets a lot of its flavour from the yeast. Cider though is more like wine. Most of the flavour comes from the fruit and minimal from the yeast. It does make some difference but not much. There are some special cider yeasts on the market. Wyeast 4766 is a good one. Any good white wine yeast will do nicely though. One thing to note here is that regardless of the yeast selection, your cider will most likely ferment out dry. Apple juice is all simple sugars so even if a yeast says 70% attenuation on the data sheet, that will be calibrated on a beer wort which contains complex sugars. in a cider, assume that all yeasts have 100% attenuation. They will eat all the sugar and leave you with a dry cider.

*How strong will my cider be?*

Depends on the juice. Normally in the 5-8% range.

*Can I make it stronger?*

Yes. If you want it stronger, just add sugar. You can add different sugars to get extra flavour. Honey is nice. Brown sugar is good too. Maple is lovely but expensive.

*Really strong? I mean.. like REALLY strong?*

*sigh* yes. If you want rocket fuel just pick a yeast with a high alcohol tolerance and keep adding sugar. Just don't invite me over to drink it with you.

*What temperature do you ferment cider at?*

Depends on the yeast. Most wine yeasts have a range of 14-25ish. Cider will benefit from a longer, slower fermentation so whatever yeast you use, try to go with something at the low end of its range.

*How long will it take?*

Fermentation will usually take between 1 and 4 weeks depending on yeast and temperature. Cider will benefit from some aging so leave it alone for 4-6 weeks and it will improve no end. Cider was traditionally brewed in autumn, aged over the winter and drunk in spring.

*My cider tastes too dry.*

Ciders will usually end up dry because the juice is all simple sugars. The yeast will chew through it all and leave it dry. If you want something sweeter, you need to add some extra, unfermentable sweetness. You can;'t just add sugar because the yeast will eat that as well. You need something that won't ferment. Lactose is traditional. Your other alternative is to sweeten when you serve. Add a shot of something sweet to the glass as you pour. Apple juice works. So does sugar syrup, honey, or if you want something really like Rekorderlig, some cordial. If you keg, you can sweeten the keg and keep it cold to prevent re-fermentation. You can also try artificial sweeteners. I think they taste foul but some people don't mind them.

*My cider tastes a bit ... you know... meh.*

Great cider is made from cider apples that contain sugar, acid and tannin. Most eating apples contain just sugar. Most shop bought juices are made from eating apples so they lack acid and tannin. You can add some grape tannin and some malic acid to compensate. You can get both from the brewshop. You can also add acid by juicing up some cooking apples and adding around 5-10% of your volume as cooking apple juice. Tannin is hard without cider apples.

*There is no foam on the fermenter. What have I done wrong?*

Nothing. Most of the time, ciders are low in protein which means they won't hold a stable foam. That means much less foam on the fermenter. This is also why cider's won't hold a head like beer.

*How do I carbonate it?*

Same as a beer.

*What are OzTops? I keep hearing about them.*

They are a plastic gizmo that lets you brew small batches of cider in a 3l juice bottle.

*Do I need them?*

Nope. They can be handy and are a good way to do small batch ciders but an airlock and a bung will let you do the same.

*Can I really brew in a 3l apple juice bottle?*

Yep. Just tip out (or drink) some of the juice and add yeast. Put the cap on loosely and away you go. Be careful though. You can't carbonate in those bottles. They aren't designed to take pressure so they will go foom and you will end up with cider everywhere.

*Where do I go from here?*

You have a few batches under your belt. The world is your oyster. Your regular cidermaking has translated into regular sex with your significant other. Other men regard you with a mixture of awe and terror. You are king of all you survey. But you want more.

You can take your cidermaking to the next level by looking into making seasonal ciders from freshly picked and juiced apples. I do warn you though that madness lies down that road. Soon you will have a cider press. Then you will have an orchard. Cider will consume your life and you will die a broken man from sheer sexual exhaustion.

Cheers
Dave


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## mwd

Good guide. You can add tannin by just adding some boiled black tea. I remember that from making fruit wines not from grapes.


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## manticle

Some people add tea for tannins - never tried it myself. Also crab apples.

Yeast and bacteria from french style cider houses and apple skins make a big difference (as do their fermentation processes and apple varieties).

People should get out and try some good craft ciders and leave 5 seeds, strongbow and rekordelig (and even things like pipsqueak) on the shelves.

Decent guide Dave - covers most bases.


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## Airgead

Ahh.. the old tea trick. I forgot about that one. Yes, you can indeed add tannin that way. Need to be careful not to add too much. Otherwise it ends up tasting like tea.

Lets see if we can set this thread up as a sort of FAQ on beginner cidermaking. We have them for various types of beer brewing so why not cider. I've made a start. Let's expand on it.

Cheers
Dave


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## fletcher

i've just put one down with the addition of honey, squeezed lemon and a bit of tea - tastes amazing now out of the fermenter and not finished yet


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## drsmurto

Great intro Airgead.

Once point i would make





> Beer gets a lot of its flavour from the yeast. Cider though is more like wine. Most of the flavour comes from the fruit and minimal from the yeast. It does make some difference but not much.


This holds true for mass produced cider but is so far from reality when you think of french and english cider (ie great cider).


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## cremmerson

Brilliant thread and well written. 

How much black tea for a 23l batch?


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## Deep End

I usually have one cup in the morning of brew day, then might have another whilst sterilising equipment, maybe even have one whilst mixing up, and for sure I'm having one when its all done. So its 4 Tea Bags for me.


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## Airgead

DrSmurto said:


> Great intro Airgead.
> 
> Once point i would make
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This holds true for mass produced cider but is so far from reality when you think of french and english cider (ie great cider).


Yeah... fair enough. When you get into the funky stuff that does change but this is a beginner's guide...

I regard funky cider as being in the advanced course.



> How much black tea for a 23l batch?


Make a cup of strong tea. Add a little. Taste. If its enough stop. If its not, add more. Rinse Repeat.

Stop a little short of where you think it should be. It may well intensify with aging. Or it may not. But its much easier to add more later that it is to take it away. It can be done but its tricky.

Cheers
Dave


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## Bribie G

Great guide. One point about the cider apples is that East Anglian ciders in the UK are made from dessert apples, the further West you go (towards scrumpy territory) the more robust the ciders become as they are made from purpose grown cider apples.

I'll try the tea trick with my latest batch.

I note that Craftbrewer doesn't stock Malic Acid, might have to score some on my next trip to Sydney.


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## Airgead

I say malic because that's the main acid naturally found in apples. You could just as easily add tartaric (grape acid) or citric. Both of which can be found in the supermarket in the baking section.

Malic is just a little more like what you would get if you used bittersharp cider apples.

Cheers
Dave


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## benen

Just making the Somerset Gold from the recipe list now. Bought myself a 5L carboy today for experimentation.


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## fletcher

cremmerson said:


> Brilliant thread and well written.
> How much black tea for a 23l batch?


i had 3 tea bags in about 500ml boiling water for a 10L batch. the tea flavour is there ever so slightly and not over powering. you could probably just get away with doubling that i reckon; if not slightly more


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## 431neb

Good guide. It took me a while to pull together the same information from scratch a few months ago.

As a fruity leg-spreader you can't go past an Aldi Apple, blackcurrant and (not too much) cranberry juice hooch back-sweetened with cordial of your partner's (or future partner's) taste. My advice for beginners is to keep it simple. I chased the impossible dream of sweeter cider (without pasteurisation) and it was pretty ordinary. Let's just say that cloudy pear juice can make for some pretty mobile sediment that picks up the blackcurrant stain. It's a really bad look especially in a clear bottle (if you roll that way).

Not advocating this method for great cider, more for backyard personality juice that goes well with a barbie... Or a barbecue.


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## Dave70

Airgead said:


> *Humm... Ok... will it still get me laid?*
> 
> Absolutely.


My wife doesn't like cider.

Is it OK to spike her milk with Rohypnol?


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## NickB

Well, from my only experience at making cider, I'd definitely advise letting your cider develop a nice pellicle thanks to a natural yeast fermentation. I'd also recommend, forgetting your yeast, and letting the yeast present on the apple skins ferment the batch out. Accidentally or otherwise! Honestly, I made an amazing cider, by completely forgetting the yeast (an accident) and tasting it 4 weeks later. So much so, that my latest batch has the dregs of the previous batch pitched in to help..... 


Anyone starting out, completely ignore my advice unless you like very sour, very tart, farmhouse ciders...



Mmmmmmm 


EDITave, my missus doesn't drink much at all. I have to use my natural charms to seduce her. It's an amazing twice-a-year-spectacle.....


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## talco92

What's a good sweetener for my apple cider? I'm moving it to secondary fermenter in 1-2 days and want to be able to drink it from the bottle, so adding cordial to it isn't really an option. 
I can't add lactose either (vegan) and I used wine yeast which can ferment maltodextrin so can't use that either. 

any hope or should I get used to completely dry cider? :icon_cheers:


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## benen

Stevia? I'd get used to it dry. So many things are an aquired taste.


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## Airgead

talco92 said:


> What's a good sweetener for my apple cider? I'm moving it to secondary fermenter in 1-2 days and want to be able to drink it from the bottle, so adding cordial to it isn't really an option.
> I can't add lactose either (vegan) and I used wine yeast which can ferment maltodextrin so can't use that either.
> 
> any hope or should I get used to completely dry cider? :icon_cheers:


You could pour it into a glass like civilised folk... 

Or just leave a little headspace in the bottle for a shot of cordial.

Are you sure about wine yeast and maltodextrin? Wine yeast has difficulties with any complex sugar. One of the key differentiators is that ale yeasts will ferment maltose and wine yeasts won't.

Lactose is milk sugar so yes, not vegan. Is yeast vegan?

Your options are pretty limited. Something like stevia will work but I find it tastes nasty. If you can keep the bottles cold you can add whatever sweetner you like and just keep them cold enough to prevent fermentation. Otherwise you need to get into some extra processing.

Sterile filtering before fermentation finishes will leave a sweet cider but carbonation will be an issue. You would need to force carbonate which may not be an option if you are bottling.

Some people bottle sweet, carbonate then pasturise the bottles to stop fermentation. I think they are insane and asking for glass explosions.

There are some traditional methods like Keeveing which reduce the nutrients in the juice and essentially stall fermentation early but for those you really need to be pressing your own apples.

Malolactic fermentation will smooth out a dry cider by converting malic acid into lactic acid which reduces the perceived acidity and makes it less sharp. That could be an option.

Or just learn to like it dry.

Cheers
Dave


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## JDW81

A small amount of hops can also add a little of what you miss through not having tannins (although not quite the same). I generally add 25g of cascade to a 23L batch, boiled for 10 minutes. Trust me, it works.

JD


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## Judanero

Has anyone steeped some crystal malt and added that to get a bit of sweetness? would that even work?

I've never brewed a cider but promised the missus I'd make her one for when she's stopped breast feeding, so figure I should get onto it.

Cheers


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## Airgead

That could work. You will get some unfermentables out of crystal. Never tried it myself though as the missus hates the taste of malt in a cider.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - and BTW - if you have a new sprog, even cider probably won't help get you laid. :unsure:


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## Judanero

Airgead said:


> if you have a new sprog, even cider probably won't help get you laid. :unsure:


Damn... this was supposed to be my fool proof plan. :lol:


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## fletcher

i just used US-05 yeast for my cider (apple juice, pear juice, honey, tiny bit of lemon juice and tea) and had a quick gravity/taste test this morning. it's been fermenting at 16C and has been fermenting since 05/05. it was sitting at 1.011 (started at 1.048). can i expect this to get lower? i'm hoping it doesn't as it currently tastes amazing. won't kill me if it does and gets drier - although i tried using an ale yeast to prevent this if possible.


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## Airgead

fletcher said:


> i just used US-05 yeast for my cider (apple juice, pear juice, honey, tiny bit of lemon juice and tea) and had a quick gravity/taste test this morning. it's been fermenting at 16C and has been fermenting since 05/05. it was sitting at 1.011 (started at 1.048). can i expect this to get lower? i'm hoping it doesn't as it currently tastes amazing. won't kill me if it does and gets drier - although i tried using an ale yeast to prevent this if possible.


Ciders will usually ferment dry regardless of the yeast. As long as the strength isn't above the alcohol tolerance of the yeast it will go dry. Ale yeast tends to handle up to 12% or so and your 1.048 isn't even close so I'd expect some further movement. It may be that you juice was low in nutrients and you have a very slow or completely stalled fermentation.

I'd check the gravity a couple more times a few days apart. If the reading is steady its probably stalled. If its still moving then its just slow.

If its stalled, you could bottle it up. Be careful though as a stalled fermentation isn't the same a a stopped one. Something, even the addition of priming sugar or the agitation of bottling could wake the yeast back up again. Or it might not. Stalled fermentations give me the heebie jeebies.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - missed the fact that you used pear juice. That can apparently add unfermentables. So you may not go completely dry. I'd still check the gravity a few times though.


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## mikec

Great little guide.

FYI Oztops will leave you with a carbonated cider, doing it in a juice bottle with the lid loose will not.
The top lets out just enough CO2 to prevent the bottle exploding, but holding enough pressure to maintain carbonation.
Different caps for different bottle types. Low pressure with low carbonation for juice bottles, medium/high pressure and medium/high carbonation for soft drink bottles.


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## fletcher

Airgead said:


> Ciders will usually ferment dry regardless of the yeast. As long as the strength isn't above the alcohol tolerance of the yeast it will go dry. Ale yeast tends to handle up to 12% or so and your 1.048 isn't even close so I'd expect some further movement. It may be that you juice was low in nutrients and you have a very slow or completely stalled fermentation.
> 
> I'd check the gravity a couple more times a few days apart. If the reading is steady its probably stalled. If its still moving then its just slow.
> 
> If its stalled, you could bottle it up. Be careful though as a stalled fermentation isn't the same a a stopped one. Something, even the addition of priming sugar or the agitation of bottling could wake the yeast back up again. Or it might not. Stalled fermentations give me the heebie jeebies.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> Edit - missed the fact that you used pear juice. That can apparently add unfermentables. So you may not go completely dry. I'd still check the gravity a few times though.


cheers mate, yeah i usually check my brews once before 2 weeks to see if they're on track, and likewise, this was my one test before that 2 week date. i've read as many threads as i can - should have realised i'd get lower than 1.011 from all that reading..but i was hoping haha.

will definitely check it again, and might increase the temperature up from 16 to try and rouse the little buggers and see what happens. if it's just a slow ferment then no worries there. i'll wait it out and test every few days as you say. worst case, i have lactose to use before bottle conditioning.


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## JDW81

fletcher said:


> i'll wait it out and test every few days as you say.


I'd leave it alone and test it in another two weeks. You've been fermenting for less than a fortnight. IMHO cider needs at least 3 weeks, but preferably 4 in the fermenter before packaging. 

If it finishes dry, back sweeten in the glass with juice, or leave it in the bottle for 12 months and watch those flavours mellow. IMHO cider needs a long, slow and cool condition before it really starts to come into its own.

JD.


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## fletcher

JDW81 said:


> I'd leave it alone and test it in another two weeks... long, slow and cool condition before it really starts to come into its own.
> 
> JD.


sounds scarily similar to lagering for me. i'd do it, but i'd get way too impatient. it's only 10 litres too (kind of a test batch). damn being impatient! haha


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## treefiddy

mikec said:


> Great little guide.
> 
> FYI Oztops will leave you with a carbonated cider, doing it in a juice bottle with the lid loose will not.
> The top lets out just enough CO2 to prevent the bottle exploding, but holding enough pressure to maintain carbonation.
> Different caps for different bottle types. Low pressure with low carbonation for juice bottles, medium/high pressure and medium/high carbonation for soft drink bottles.



I've tried a 2 L juice bottle with the lid cracked just enough to allow excess gas to escape. It worked fine, fair carbonation.

It did feel pretty ghetto though, but I do like to experiment.


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## gc.camel

Going to give a cider a go in a couple weeks when a fermenters freed up.

I was thinking a 10ish liter test batch incase it i don't like it!

7.2L Berri Apple Juice (3x 2.4L bottles)
2.55L Goulbourn Valley Pear Juice (3x 850mL tins)
Half a US05
and some lactose

Any thoughts on a good amount of lactose to start at. I was going to guess 100g. I don't like my cider too sweet but not too dry either 

Once fermented could i just keep adding more lactose until i liked the result?


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## JDW81

fletcher said:


> sounds scarily similar to lagering for me. i'd do it, but i'd get way too impatient. it's only 10 litres too (kind of a test batch). damn being impatient! haha


Not quite, lagering is done at very cold temps, cider would be conditioned at cellar (or melbourne garage) temperatures.


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## Airgead

Yep. Cider was traditionally brewed at harvest time (autumn), conditioned over winder in cellars then served in the spring.

Mine tend to get 2-3 months at 8-10C to condition but then I make 40-50l each year for the missus which is exactly enough to last her right through the year until the new batch is properly conditioned and ready.

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax

A little tip towards carbonating in a juice bottle for those that won't bother with oztops:

A. cider shouldn't be dry yet
B. there needs to be headspace in the bottle
C. squeeze out the air from the headspace and screw the cap on securely, place in door of fridge. Wait a day, the bottle should have reformed into the squeezing you did. It's carbed enough to drink. Works best with wine or champagne or other such 8-10C tolerant yeast.
D. how this works? Doors of most fridges aren't directly cooled, they are cooled through the depth of the shelves. This leaves them warmer than the rest of the fridge. Typically I'd leave the butter dish in the door. This is sort of ideal slow champagne fermentation territory. So, right yeast and bottle and you get gradual carbonation from sugars remaining in the juice. As a bonus, the cold helps yeast settle pretty well on the bottom of the bottle.
E. as a repeat reminder of Dave's warning, juice bottles aren't meant to be pressurised. I'd recommend never doing this outside a fridge or controlled environment. The weakest parts are the lids usually but it can also happen at the bottom where the rim the bottle stands on is worn out or the moulding that sews it together has a defect. Use common sense, use a new bottle if you do. Extra juicy juice bottles have these large grippy caps that I'd attest to the strength of by design that they don't break easily. I'd save a few caps for this kind of thing, sanitise and reuse.

Goes without saying but in the spirit of the guide, if you are fermenting in 20 odd juice bottles, why would you then bottle it on into smaller bottles? Is it worth the risk of infections and hassle. Rather put it all in a big fermenter and do a single ferment. Well, that's just pre-emptive advice.


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## donburke

I've pitched a cider on Monday

15L apple/pear juice (5 x 3L just juice apple/pear juice)
4L pear juice (5 x 850ml goulburn valley pear juice)
1 teaspoon yeast nutrient
2 x red star champagne yeast (rehydrated)

currently fermenting at 18 degrees, slowly

questions

1) is the ferment temp of 18 ok ? (red star champagne yeast has a range of 15 - 26) 

2) is there any benefit in leaving the cider on the yeast cake after final gravity, like we do in beer to clean up ?

3) if I crash chill, then keg, it might be too dry for my liking, so I might back sweeten with pear juice, if I do is there any chance of continued fermentation with the keg sitting at 3 or 4 degrees in my kegerator (yeast lower range is 15 degrees) ?

thanks


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## kierent

gc.camel said:


> Going to give a cider a go in a couple weeks when a fermenters freed up.
> 
> I was thinking a 10ish liter test batch incase it i don't like it!
> 
> 7.2L Berri Apple Juice (3x 2.4L bottles)
> 2.55L Goulbourn Valley Pear Juice (3x 850mL tins)
> Half a US05
> and some lactose
> 
> Any thoughts on a good amount of lactose to start at. I was going to guess 100g. I don't like my cider too sweet but not too dry either
> 
> Once fermented could i just keep adding more lactose until i liked the result?


I did a cider a couple of years back using lactose as a sweetener and from memory I used 200g in a 20L batch and it was quite sweet. Not as sweet as the commercial ones but I find them almost undrinkable. Also as you say, you can add lactose at the end to taste so maybe start with 80g. That's only from memory though, someone else may have better advice. I also used lemon juice and tea in mine which would change the characteristics a bit.


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## JDW81

gc.camel said:


> Going to give a cider a go in a couple weeks when a fermenters freed up.
> 
> I was thinking a 10ish liter test batch incase it i don't like it!
> 
> 7.2L Berri Apple Juice (3x 2.4L bottles)
> 2.55L Goulbourn Valley Pear Juice (3x 850mL tins)
> Half a US05
> and some lactose
> 
> Any thoughts on a good amount of lactose to start at. I was going to guess 100g. I don't like my cider too sweet but not too dry either
> 
> Once fermented could i just keep adding more lactose until i liked the result?


Use the whole pack of yeast. Other than that looks fine to me. 

I'd be light handed with the lactose first time around. You can always sweeten with juice in the glass if it is too dry, but if you over do the lactose it will taste horrid.

JD


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## Airgead

donburke said:


> I've pitched a cider on Monday
> 
> 15L apple/pear juice (5 x 3L just juice apple/pear juice)
> 4L pear juice (5 x 850ml goulburn valley pear juice)
> 1 teaspoon yeast nutrient
> 2 x red star champagne yeast (rehydrated)
> 
> currently fermenting at 18 degrees, slowly
> 
> questions
> 
> 1) is the ferment temp of 18 ok ? (red star champagne yeast has a range of 15 - 26)
> 
> 2) is there any benefit in leaving the cider on the yeast cake after final gravity, like we do in beer to clean up ?
> 
> 3) if I crash chill, then keg, it might be too dry for my liking, so I might back sweeten with pear juice, if I do is there any chance of continued fermentation with the keg sitting at 3 or 4 degrees in my kegerator (yeast lower range is 15 degrees) ?
> 
> thanks


1 - yes but I find that ciders are better if you go cooler and longer. I'd go with 15 personally but 18 should be fine.

2 - Depends a lot on the yeast. Yeast is a lot like kids. When they are finished with something, some will clean up. Others will make more mess.

3 - With that amount of pear juice its likely to be resonably sweet anyway. If really like lolly water, you can sweeten the keg and keep it cold. You will be fine. I do that quite often by adding a little honey (maybe half a cup) to the keg to add a really faint honey taste and touch of sweetness. Don't let it warm up though.

Cheers
Dave


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## Airgead

JDW81 said:


> Use the whole pack of yeast. Other than that looks fine to me.
> 
> I'd be light handed with the lactose first time around. You can always sweeten with juice in the glass if it is too dry, but if you over do the lactose it will taste horrid.
> 
> JD


Yep. You can add but can't take away. As lactose is unfermentable you might as well leave it out for fermentation and add to taste once finished.

Cheers
Dave


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## donburke

Airgead said:


> 1 - yes but I find that ciders are better if you go cooler and longer. I'd go with 15 personally but 18 should be fine.
> 
> 2 - Depends a lot on the yeast. Yeast is a lot like kids. When they are finished with something, some will clean up. Others will make more mess.
> 
> 3 - With that amount of pear juice its likely to be resonably sweet anyway. If really like lolly water, you can sweeten the keg and keep it cold. You will be fine. I do that quite often by adding a little honey (maybe half a cup) to the keg to add a really faint honey taste and touch of sweetness. Don't let it warm up though.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


thanks for the response airgead

I don't normally drink cider, except I tried vinaceous forbidden fruit pear cider and I quite liked it, it wasn't as sweet as the Swedish varieties, and had a champagne like character

so that's what i'm trying to get, hopefully my choice of ingredients will get me something close

cheers


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## nathan_madness

For all you guys heading down this route:


Airgead said:


> You can take your cidermaking to the next level by looking into making seasonal ciders from freshly picked and juiced apples. I do warn you though that madness lies down that road. Soon you will have a cider press. Then you will have an orchard. Cider will consume your life and you will die a broken man from sheer sexual exhaustion.


Have a good read of this http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm and you will understand how much cider will consume your life.


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## Airgead

Indeed. It kind of takes over.

To the point that next year I'm getting my license, pressing a tone or two of fruit to make a thousand or so bottles and selling the stuff (hopefully).

750ml Champagne bottles with crown seals. Bottle conditioned.

I'll be using a mix of eating and granny smith for a while until the row of cider apple tress I persuaded an orchardist to put in for me next year are fruiting. A nice mix of traditional bittersweet and bittersharp varieties.

Cheers
Dave


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## fletcher

quick question. 

if i have a cider that has potentially halted or stalled fermenting at 1.011 (the one i mentioned above), would it be possible to bottle now, leave carbonating at ambient until the PET bottles i use start to bulge slightly, and then keep at normal fridge temps to stop further carbonation? i'm using us-05 so fridge temps of 6C and below should be too low to keep it active. either that or i could keep it cold crashed at around 2C to be completely safe.

in this way would i be correct in assuming if the yeast then wakes up at ambient, the further fermentation would be what carbonates the cider? negating the need for priming sugar/carb drops.


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## fletcher

bah. i'll give it a go, and be very careful after bottling and report how i go


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## JDW81

fletcher said:


> quick question.
> 
> if i have a cider that has potentially halted or stalled fermenting at 1.011 (the one i mentioned above), would it be possible to bottle now, leave carbonating at ambient until the PET bottles i use start to bulge slightly, and then keep at normal fridge temps to stop further carbonation? i'm using us-05 so fridge temps of 6C and below should be too low to keep it active. either that or i could keep it cold crashed at around 2C to be completely safe.
> 
> in this way would i be correct in assuming if the yeast then wakes up at ambient, the further fermentation would be what carbonates the cider? negating the need for priming sugar/carb drops.


Is this the one you put down on the 5th?

Don't be so hasty. Give it another week at least, and then start to think about bottling. If your sanitisation is thorough then you can safely leave it in the fermenter for a lot longer. If you need the fermenter space go an buy another one, they're cheap.

I ferment cider for a month minimum.

JD


----------



## fletcher

thanks JD (yes it is). i'm too impatient for this hobby >.<


----------



## JDW81

fletcher said:


> i'm too impatient for this hobby >.<


Thats why you need a few things on the go at once.


----------



## fletcher

very true. so far it's only been my cider i've been too anxious for. all my beers i've been happy with waiting. weird.


----------



## benen

I can't help expanding. I got a 30L fermenter first. Then a week later a 5L carboy. Pretty keen on another carboy to use as a secondary for my small batches and to free up the first one for more experimenting. I think my bottle quantity will expand pretty quickly too. It's too hard to stop haha


----------



## Mattco92

Dave you are a gentlemen, and a scholar.
This was a much better love story than twilight


----------



## pressure_tested

So can one of you cider obsessed guys who are pleased with the results share a tried and tested recipe?


----------



## Airgead

Recipe using apples or using juice?

If its from apples then my standard is 85% eating apples (mix of sundowner and pink lady this year) and 15% granny smith. White wine yeast. This year I'll use 71B in half and CRU-005 in the other half.

Ferments out dry then I back sweeten a tiny bit in the keg.

I'll leave the juice recipes to those that use juice. There's really not much to a juice cider recipe though. At its most basic, juice+yeast=cider. The complexity in ciders comes when you start using apples and blending varieties to get the flavour you want.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pk.sax

Juice, Coles brand cloudy apple from the cold shelf + champagne or white wine yeast. Ferment dry, no added sugar. Carbonate and age minimum 1-2 months. A bit like apple wine. Develops strong fruity flavours with time.

Long life juice, pres free + honey, guessing about 100g/l honey to juice, dilute honey with some hot water before adding or you'd have rocket fuel. Ferment dry and age 1-2 months. Lovely honey sweetness and a smooth aftertaste, sort of honey slickness. Actually, blend this with some Belgian saison for a truly kickarse drink.


----------



## fletcher

practicalfool said:


> Juice, Coles brand cloudy apple from the cold shelf + champagne or white wine yeast. Ferment dry, no added sugar. Carbonate and age minimum 1-2 months. A bit like apple wine. Develops strong fruity flavours with time.
> Long life juice, pres free + honey, guessing about 100g/l honey to juice, dilute honey with some hot water before adding or you'd have rocket fuel. Ferment dry and age 1-2 months. Lovely honey sweetness and a smooth aftertaste, sort of honey slickness. Actually, blend this with some Belgian saison for a truly kickarse drink.


the belgian saison yeast or the actual saison itself? sorry if this is a stupid question


----------



## manticle

Airgead said:


> pressing a tone or two



Sine wave?

Regardless as to whether it's sine or square, please let me know when and where it's available.

Cheers.


----------



## bum

I'll have a pint if it's a sawtooth. I'm just like that, you know?

Very keen to know if I'll be able to get some down our way when it is done though.


----------



## Airgead

frickin autocorrect


----------



## manticle

Doesn't matter. Make cider, sell it to me, problem solved.


----------



## Airgead

That's the plan. Well... not selling specifically to you. To anyone who wishes to part with coin for cider.

First step though... get license. I'll keep everyone posted on how that goes. I may even write a blog about it. Unless its really easy and straightforward in which case it would be a very boring blog.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## bum

Airgead said:


> That's the plan. Well... not selling specifically to you. To anyone who wishes to part with coin for cider.
> 
> First step though... get license. I'll keep everyone posted on how that goes. I may even write a blog about it. Unless its really easy and straightforward in which case it would be a very boring blog.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


If you can discover an easy way to do it then I am sure many will find it interesting.


----------



## Greg.L

The easiest way to get a license is to own a farm and grow your own fruit.


----------



## pressure_tested

practicalfool said:


> Juice, Coles brand cloudy apple from the cold shelf + champagne or white wine yeast. Ferment dry, no added sugar. Carbonate and age minimum 1-2 months. A bit like apple wine. Develops strong fruity flavours with time.
> .


Have you ever blended the cloudy with cheaper juice? I priced that juice at $60 for 23 litres.


----------



## pk.sax

@ Fletcher, the saison itself. i.e., blending beer and saison in a glass/jug.

@ p_t, nah mate, I've only brewed 4L at a time in a glass demijohn. Still, 60 bucks compares to fwk prices... I like to bottle my cider though or drink it from the fermenter


----------



## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> The easiest way to get a license is to own a farm and grow your own fruit.


Yeah... unfortunately not an option for me at the moment but I will be partnering up with a commercial orchardist so that may help.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Judanero

1st attempt at Cider has been sitting in the ferment fridge at 17 degrees since Saturday.. fridge is smelling delicious.

Used 2 x 1.8L Berri brand Apple,Pomegranate and Rasberry juice, and ~1L of Woolies select Apple juice.

Used Lalvin strain ICV D47 yeast, checked on it today and discovered a fair amount of juice on the floor, seems it climbed out of the 5L demijohn. h34r:


----------



## fletcher

Judanero said:


> 1st attempt at Cider has been sitting in the ferment fridge at 17 degrees since Saturday.. fridge is smelling delicious.
> 
> Used 2 x 1.8L Berri brand Apple,Pomegranate and Rasberry juice, and ~1L of Woolies select Apple juice.
> 
> Used Lalvin strain ICV D47 yeast, checked on it today and discovered a fair amount of juice on the floor, seems it climbed out of the 5L demijohn. h34r:


nice mate. can you please update on here when it's done? i'd like to know how low that yeast gets as i noticed on their page that it's good for making residual sugar wines. i'm guessing/hoping it doesn't get AS low as other wine yeasts in that case.


----------



## treefiddy

Judanero said:


> Used Lalvin strain ICV D47 yeast, checked on it today and discovered a fair amount of juice on the floor, seems it climbed out of the 5L demijohn.  h34r:


Where the hell did you get the D47 from?

I've been looking for it (albeit not very hard) for so long that I forgot why I wanted it in the first place!


----------



## Matty McFly

I have weird balls of yeast, about the shape of chick peas that closely resemble tumors floating on top of my cider (21L).

Is this normal? Will it inhibit my getting laid? Chicks dig tumors, right?


----------



## fletcher

Matty McFly said:


> I have weird balls of yeast, about the shape of chick peas that closely resemble tumors floating on top of my cider (21L).
> 
> Is this normal? Will it inhibit my getting laid? Chicks dig tumors, right?


ooh, you have 'growths'? shit son, no chick likes going anywhere _near_ growths

"it's not a rash i swear"


----------



## Airgead

Matty McFly said:


> I have weird balls of yeast, about the shape of chick peas that closely resemble tumors floating on top of my cider (21L).
> 
> Is this normal? Will it inhibit my getting laid? Chicks dig tumors, right?


Not usually normal... which yeast? Any chance of a photo?

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Matty McFly

It was dry sachet of ale yeast that I rehydrated., came in a little white packet. Some English brand, I forget.

Here she is though.

Edit: It may also help to mention I added about 3/4 a cup of sultanas (no preservatives) in there and a little ginger, just to act as a makeshift yeast nutrient. This is just a guess, but I think the yeast may be engulfing the sultanas because well, c'mon, they're tasty.


----------



## Airgead

Yep... those are swollen sultanas. Nothing to worry about.

Someone else here got caught the same way.

BTW - adding sultanas probably isn't doing anything to the cider. I'd leave them out next time. People used to use them in the old days as a yeast nutrient. no need now and they don't add any flavour unless you use heaps (which is expensive).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Judanero

treefiddy said:


> Where the hell did you get the D47 from?


Hey mate I got it from 

http://www.ibrew.com.au/collections/wine-yeast-strains

along with a few other bits and pieces (as you do late night online shopping B) )


----------



## Judanero

fletcher said:


> nice mate. can you please update on here when it's done? i'd like to know how low that yeast gets as i noticed on their page that it's good for making residual sugar wines. i'm guessing/hoping it doesn't get AS low as other wine yeasts in that case.


 Yeah mate will do, it's my first run at cider so I'll update as soon as it's finished up and into the mini keg..

Fingers crossed it comes out alright!


----------



## InCider

Great post Airgead... I love zoider. If you need to make a cider to extinguish your tough talking mates, make 'Parish' cider. 18l of preservative free juice, 500g of brown sugar and champagne yeast. If they're still good after 2 pints I'll floss with a bike chain!

I love Nottingham yeast as a cider fave, and if you're wont to experiment, get some cherries or blueberries as if you were making a kriek.

InCider.


----------



## Bribie G

For those kegging cider, I have found the fermenter that God does cider in.

It's not cheap, the best part of $30 but it's perfect.

Because cider doesn't krausen during fermentation, you don't need massive headspace and the standard types of beer 30L FVs are a bit too big if you are doing a keg batch.

BCF (no affiliation) sell a very sturdy - makes other "fermenting vessels" seem like takeaway containers : nominal 20L water drum that is bloody brilliant. I originally bought it as a cold conditioning vessel for a keg size beer brew, but when I got onto cider it got swiftly purloined.





One advantage is the "well" at the bottom - cider yeast sticks like shyte to a blanket and settles out to a very sticky and compact layer at the bottom of the well, so there is virtually no loss to trub. Usually manage to fill a keg and have a couple of pints out of the FV as well, which is ok for scrumpy style. :chug:


----------



## pk.sax

*O American overlords!*

*Can you please make this thread sticky!*


----------



## maxim0200

Great OP and resulting thread!
Thanks!


----------



## Natdene

Hi guys, 

I'm going to have crack at my first cider, my wife wants a strawberry and lime. So how does the following sound for a 9l trial batch
6l of Coles apple juice
Two .850 tins of pear juice
500g of strawberries - going to chop up and boil to a purée 
1 lime, juice in and boil up the zest and add as well
Cider yeast from local HB shop

What do you think? Have I missed anything? Anything I should add?


----------



## Airgead

Ok... don't boil the strawberries. unless you want it to taste like jam. Cooked strawberry tasted totally different to fresh. 

Strawberries also don't have a lot of flavour. Half a kilo I suspect you will barely taste. I'd be shooting at a kilo at least. Try to grab frozen ones. The freezing helps release the juice. They are also way cheaper than fresh.

You could also try adding the zest unboiled as well. Or make your zest tea and add it post fermentation. You may get more flavour that way.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Natdene

Ok thanks for the tips, I thought boiling the strawberries would kill any nasties but now I will just mash them up and get some frozen ones as well.

Thanks again, will let you know how it turns out in a few weeks


----------



## Nossil

Hey guys,

Got 14L of Aldi apple juice and 2L of Aldi apple blackcurrent (thought i'd chuck it in there, why not!) and half a kilo of dex bubbling away in the fermenter.

Will transfer to keg this, or next, weekend.

Missus isn't fond at all on pear juice/cider so after reading some things on this forum the cider is going to come out really dry.

Any tips on what to add to the keg to make it taste along the same vein as rekorderlig mixed berry? Hopefully something on the shelves of woolworths will do the trick. 
What about Cordial? Sounds weird but its just concentrated super sugar juice isnt it? 

My keg fridge is pretty cold, so I'm not too worried about the yeasties eating up whatever sweetener I add to the keg.


----------



## pk.sax

Taste it first, if the blackcurrant is strong enough already just dissolve some sugar and rack the cider onto it in the keg. If it doesn't taste right yet, add more flavouring, like cordial. Obviously that takes care of the sugar too.


----------



## The Village Idiot

If only doing a 3 litre batch, I guess you don't need a full packet of yeast??


----------



## manticle

Nossil said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Got 14L of Aldi apple juice and 2L of Aldi apple blackcurrent (thought i'd chuck it in there, why not!) and half a kilo of dex bubbling away in the fermenter.
> 
> Will transfer to keg this, or next, weekend.
> 
> Missus isn't fond at all on pear juice/cider so after reading some things on this forum the cider is going to come out really dry.
> 
> Any tips on what to add to the keg to make it taste along the same vein as rekorderlig mixed berry? Hopefully something on the shelves of woolworths will do the trick.
> What about Cordial? Sounds weird but its just concentrated super sugar juice isnt it?
> 
> My keg fridge is pretty cold, so I'm not too worried about the yeasties eating up whatever sweetener I add to the keg.



The guide that begins this thread makes some suggestions as to sweeter cider, including getting something near that vile Rekordelig rubbish.

Hopefully people are reading the guide Dave put so much work into writing.


----------



## Nossil

^Yeah mate, was after something a bit more specific with some actual examples besides "just add sugar" or "just add cordial".

The guide is great, and many thanks to Dave for putting it together.


----------



## bum

Do you think it may just be a case of simply adding sugar or cordial to taste?

You don't think Rekorderlig pulp strawberries and zest limes, do you?


----------



## manticle

Get appropriately flavoured cordial (some kind of mixed berry type in your case).
Dose glass of cider bit by bit till it tastes right.
Dose whole keg proportionally or alternatively just add cordial to glass as you serve.


----------



## Nossil

Good idea, I'll get my hands on some mixed berry cordial and do some trial and error in a glass and add proportionality to the keg.

Thanks manticle for the constructive response.


----------



## Airgead

Since this gets asked so often, I'm trying to put together a specific guide to sweet cider. Haven't had time to finish it though.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Anthony.R.M

Thanks for creating this guide. It really has sped up my confidence to move away from packs. My Cider #3 used store bought juice and Cider #4 used 23ltrs of freshly juiced apples. 

Any chances of throwing up some of your recipies Dave?


----------



## Airgead

My recipe is pretty simple. About 15% granny smith. The rest a mix of pink lady and sundowner. This year I split the batch and did half with with CRU-005 and half with 71B. Not much fancy recipe formulation with cider. its like wine - Ingredients:grapes, yeast.

I'm planning to rack into kegs this weekend so I'll have a taste then and see how its doing. I might chuck in some malic acid if its a bit low. This year the grannies were very sweet and low in acid so I might need some extra. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Anthony.R.M

Cheers. 

My local farmers market had royal gala's on sale for $1/kg. I've juiced them and made up a batch ove the weekend along with some pear juice. I'm interested to see how it turns out.


----------



## Airgead

If you talk to the grower and ask for seconds and windfalls you can often get them really cheap. Like a few/kilo or free. Mostly they throw that stuff away so they are often happy to get rid of it.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## eternaldrive

Hey Dave great guide helped out with planning of cider number 3.
You may want add your views on the following question (a common one for new cider makers).
Help my fermenter smells of rhino farts/rotten eggs ect what's wrong?
Cheers
Nick.


----------



## Airgead

Good point. I'll add that to version 2...

Answer BTW - Thats sulphur. A lot of yeast strains give it off. Most of the time it will dissapate during conditioning but you can minimise it by making sure the yeast isn't stressed. Sulphur is often a sign that the yeast may not have enough nutrient. A little yeast nutrient and it should fix things up. If the cider has been throwing sulphur for a while then a good long cold conditioning time (before bottling) will let the cider dissapate. If you bottle it with the sulphur it will be trapped in the bottle.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Bartman

Not sure if this is the right place BUT......
new brewer was wondering if I can do test brews in 500ml bottles to get a basic idea of what I put in to what comes out. Can I then just scale up the best brew, or does the smaller fermentation vessel size change the fermentation conditions and therefore the taste so it can't be reliably scaled up?


----------



## Airgead

Should scale up pretty well. Give it a go and see how it works.

I'd reccomend at least 1l as a batch size though. With a 500ml batch, by the time you have wastage to yeast sediment etc you will end up with a thimblefull to taste.

Cheers
Dave

I'm doing much the same thing right now - fermenting 50l as a test batch for 1000l next year.


----------



## pk.sax

Bartman said:


> Not sure if this is the right place BUT......
> new brewer was wondering if I can do test brews in 500ml bottles to get a basic idea of what I put in to what comes out. Can I then just scale up the best brew, or does the smaller fermentation vessel size change the fermentation conditions and therefore the taste so it can't be reliably scaled up?


Take bottle of juice, pour out a cup, drink (optional), sprinkle in a quarter of a teaspoon yeast, cap loosely.
Sit in temp controlled fridge at 18ish or in a cool dark cupboard that is around the same.
Should be ready to carbonate in about 4-5 days, slightly sweet. Might take about 7-10 days to fully ferment out. I pour my cider still-ish.


----------



## insane_rosenberg

Just bottled my first cider:
-12L of Apple Juice. Home juiced with an auger juicer. 10% granny Smith and the balance Pink Lady. 
-3 tea bags in 500mL water.
-Juice of one lemon.
Fermented for 4 weeks with Nottingham at 19ºC.
Out of the fermenter it is very cloudy, slightly bitter and tart, with noticeable alcohol warmth (1.056 down to 0.998). Not even sure how out of style these factors are? 
1. Will it clear up in the bottle? 
2. Should I strain the juice next time?
3. Any other obvious improvements?


----------



## Airgead

1 - yes
2 - meh
3 - see what it's like and adjust to your taste from there.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## simplefisherman

Hi there cider masters, I've been making Cole's apple juice cider ( aka prison hooch ) for a little while, using different yeasts and backsweetening ( or not ) with cloudy apple juice, also using the cloudy apple to naturally carbonate in pet bottles, I think it worked out at 80ml juice in a 2l bottle for 2.5 vol co2. It comes out a bit tart, quite nice and is now my preferred way of doing it.
I had an opened bottle of said coles cloudy apple in the fridge at 3-4 deg, and after a week or so it started leaking out the lid ( was on its side ) and had signs of fermentation. I took it out of the fridge and let it ferment out, I tried a small bit and its quite tangy and ' sharp ' but not unpleasantly so. According to the bottle its 99% apple juice and ( presumably) 1% vitamin c. Says keep refrigerated and consume within 5 days of opening. Does this mean its not pasteurized? I'm thinking about adding this about 1l to a batch of hooch of about 12l for something different.
Basically I'm wondering if this is a bad idea? Am I likely to make anybody ill with this ( aside from the purists hehe ) or is it worth a crack? What would be the fermenting agent, some cold loving wild yeast or a lactic something or other?
Thanks in advance for any advice/ opinion...


----------



## Airgead

What it means is that the bottle wasn't sealed properly (or wasn't cleaned properly) and *something* got in and caused the juice to ferment. Exactly what that something is, I can't say. most likely its some wild yeast. But it could be a bacteria. Or a fungus.

Will it make you sick? Probably not. Will it taste nice? Maybe. Would I add it to to batch of hooch and drink it? No. Should you ad it to a batch of hooch and drink it? Up to you. Probably won't kill you. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## simplefisherman

People of Australia, if you are reading this then I have probably been killed or hospitalised from drinking dodgey cider...
Anyways, probably not worth the risk then ha ha, in the sink it goes.
Out of interest though, what would be the best/ easiest way to encourage some wild yeast ferment, without moving to orchard country?


----------



## Airgead

Wild yeast is easy - just leace it open on the bench. You are liukely to get wild yeast in there. Wild yeast that tastes good though. Different story.


----------



## pk.sax

Dude, apologies Dave, if the thing caught it in the fridge owing to a bad seal, you've probably infected it wih the yeast you've been fermenting bottle batches in the fridge with. If it tastes alright...

Anyway, much fun to you.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Do you need to boil this like beer? or just add yeast 

;noob question I know


----------



## gap

No, do not boil apple juice , just add the yeast.


----------



## Airgead

Yep. No need to boil. You can boil but your cider ends up tasting like apple sauce not apple.

The boil in beer does a bunch of useful stuff like coagulating protiens and extracting hops. The killing bugs part of the boil is actually secondary.

None of those other things apply for cider and a good big pitch of yeast and basic sanitation take care of the bugs issue so a boil is unnecessary. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Ok cool I just finished putting a brew on.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

My first brew.


----------



## Airgead

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> My first brew.


Well done that man!

As a very wise man once said... you have just taken your first step into a much larger world...


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Can't seem to upload pics.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

lol think i found it


----------



## HalfWit

Hey, I have three cases Cider I want to condition as quickly as possible. Would it help to CC it or let it sit at room temps? I used Wyeast 4766. Cheers


----------



## Airgead

I condition long and cold but I'm a patient guy.

Why not leave 1 case warm and keep the others cold. The warmer one may condition a little more quickly. Maybe. That way you can drink side by side and see if there is any difference.

Regardless of the temp, the longer the better. Any time will improve it but the longer you can leave it the better it will be (up to a point of course... 3-6 months is the sweet spot for me).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Ok my first cider;

6 x 2.4lt Woolworths "select' Apple & Pear juice
1 x 2.4 Apple and Blackcurrent juice
1 x 850ml Goulburn Valley Pear juice
1 x lime (rind&juice)
500g light malt extract
250g Dextrose monohydrate
250g maltodextrin 
1 x 8 g Harvest white wine yeast (SN9)


I would just like to thank Dave for his recipe.Although i did plan to follow it the brew shop owner talked me into adding the extra sugars. 
I have a few questions tho.
1. Whats a good start point for the cider  to fully ferment out ?
2. Because im after a sweet brew for the wife i bought 1 kg of maltodextrin in case it turns a bit dry when is the best time to sweetin it ?
I have the Fermenter set at 18-21*C (old fridge)
Thanks again for the help


----------



## Airgead

Brewshop owners love convincing you to buy that extra kilo or so of sugar because that's where their profit margin is.

Regular shop bought juice will get you to about 5-6%. Maybe more. Freshly squeezed juice can be up to 9% in a good year.

Adding the extra sugars will add a percent or two. The malt will also add a beery flavour which may be a good thing for you but if I tried it my missus would refuse to drink it.

SN9 will dry everything right out except for the maltodextrin and the pear. That will leave you with a little residual sweetness. You could also add some lactose to taste after fermentation finishes. Never used maltodextrin myself but its only partially nonfermentable so I'd add it during fermentation. Otherwise it will be all ready to go, you will add the malto and fermentation will kick off again. Lactose is all nonfermentable so you can add it after. Not sure how much malto is appropriate having not used it. Maybe someone who has could comment on that.

I'd be tempted to forget the maltodextrin, see how it goes with the pear and add lactose after fermentation. Unless your missus is lactose intolerant in which case don't. That would be very bad.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Airgead said:


> Brewshop owners love convincing you to buy that extra kilo or so of sugar because that's where their profit margin is.
> 
> Regular shop bought juice will get you to about 5-6%. Maybe more. Freshly squeezed juice can be up to 9% in a good year.
> 
> Adding the extra sugars will add a percent or two. The malt will also add a beery flavour which may be a good thing for you but if I tried it my missus would refuse to drink it.
> 
> SN9 will dry everything right out except for the maltodextrin and the pear. That will leave you with a little residual sweetness. You could also add some lactose to taste after fermentation finishes. Never used maltodextrin myself but its only partially nonfermentable so I'd add it during fermentation. Otherwise it will be all ready to go, you will add the malto and fermentation will kick off again. Lactose is all nonfermentable so you can add it after. Not sure how much malto is appropriate having not used it. Maybe someone who has could comment on that.
> 
> I'd be tempted to forget the maltodextrin, see how it goes with the pear and add lactose after fermentation. Unless your missus is lactose intolerant in which case don't. That would be very bad.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

LOL cool thanks Dave. After two daus of ferment it smells very nice. How long bf the old girl can scoff the stuff.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

LOL cool thanks Dave. After two days of ferment it smells very nice. How long bf the old girl can scoff the stuff.


----------



## Airgead

As with all things brewing the answer is "it depends".

Fermentation will generally be done in a week. Maybe two. After that it will improve with age. The longer you can age it, the better it will be.

I have 2 kegs cold conditioning now that I pressed and fermented in March. We'll crack them open at the end of September (when I also start drinking my Octoberfest lager).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Wow ok then it may depend on the room in the ferment fridge. I'm looking to brew beer justcwaiting on equipment.I will keg at the last moment. Then wait.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

I will give it 4 weeks then keg. Maybe at 18-20c. Just waiting on my magna mill. Then beer next week. So it should get 2/3 weeks alone in my fridge bf the beer ferment.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Ok so my cider has stoped breathing Thu the airlock. I've takin a sg reading. Just that I think it's a bit early. Any help.


----------



## gap

Can't help you until you reveal the sg reading.


----------



## Airgead

Yep.. need the SG reading. Even better, do a couple of readings a few days apart. If they don't move then it has stopped.

Airlock activity is a very unreliable indicator of fermentation activity. More likely it just isn't sealed properly somewhere. My airlocks almost never bubble.

If it has stopped, and the gravity is still high, there can be several reasons. The most obvious would be that the temp dropped too low and it went into hibernation. In that case, warming it up and gently rousing the yeast will get it started.

it might have finished early due to low nutrient levels in which case you may need to add some nutrient and a new pitch of yeast.

Or the yeast may have reached its maximum alcohol tolerance. I seem to remember that your recipe had a bunch of extra sugar so that may be it. Unlikely though as you would need to get over 12% for most yeasts to stop. If it is that, you will need to pitch some higher tolerance yeast. EC1118 will take you up to 18-19%.

Or it could be unfermentable sugars. You used a lot of pear and maltodextrin so it could have stopped due to lack of fermentable sugar.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Ok thanks guys. Start 1070. Now it's at 1018
took a reading yesterday and today still at 1018. Because it's my first brew I'm a bit lost.


----------



## Airgead

With the amount of pear and other unferrmentables in your recipe, it could well be done. You used some straight pear plus a bunch of mixed apple and pear so there could be quite a bit of sorbitol in there. Did you end up adding the maltodextrin?

Take a sample every couple of days for a week and if it doesn't change then its probably done.

if its too sweet, you will probably need to add some acid to restore balance. Most sweet wines have quite a bit of acid to balance them back out. Shop bought juice is usually very low in acid as well. You can use citric, malic or tartaric acid. Citric is from citrus, tartaric is the main acid in grapes and mallic is the main acid in apples. Of the three I'd go for mallic but its harder to get. Citric and tartaric you can get in the baking isle of coles/woolies. Mallic means a trip to the brewshop. If you can't get hold of mallic, I'd go for tartaric.

Grab a known volume of the cider. Say 1l. Add a known amount of acid. Maybe 0.1g. Then taste. Keep adding small amounts till its right. Then work out how much to add to the full batch. You want to reduce that calculated amount by a little before you add it as acid can intensify with aging and its easier to add a tiny bit more than it is to remove some later.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Thanks Dave for that. How do I tell if it's a temp issue (raise the temp to kick the yeast back to life)or the yeast has finished fermenting the available sugars. As to low nutrientslevels how can I tell? The equipment was all brand new so I'm sure the airlock is working. It's was happily bubbling away two days ago.

As for the moltodextrin no I didn't add I felt I strayed of2f the recipe enough. Lol


----------



## Airgead

Is it room temp or in a temp controlled environment? If its temp controlled then its probably not temp. But we had a few cold nights over the last couple of days so if its at room temp it may have chilled and stalled.

1.018 is low enough that its unlikely to be nutrients. That tends to stall quite early. 1.070 to 1.019 gives a shade under 7%. That could stop some yeasts. Which yeast did you use again?

If its at room temp and warming it doesn't kick it back to life then it may well just be finished and you have a lot of unfermentable sugars present (which is the opposite problem most people have with cider). alternatively, if it is the alcohol that has stopped the yeast then a pitch of something like EC1118 (brewshop... most of them have it) will dry it out.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead

Just checked back.. you used SN9... it won't be the alcohol percentage. SN9 is another one you use to restart stuck ferments. That will handle up to 19% or so and needs very few nutrients (so its unlikely to be nutrients either). It also ferments down to 10C so unless its really cold at your place its unlikely to be temp either.

Could just be finished.

Some wine yeasts have trouble metabolising some of the complex sugars in malt (which was in your recipe) so it could be the remaining malt sugars that are leaving it with a high gravity. A beer yeast might dry it out further as they can metabolise more malt sugars. You could try that.

Give it a taste and see how it is. if its revoltingly sweet, try some beer yeast. Something neutral that will take a bit of alcohol. Like a while labs 001 - cal ale. If its not too bad, try adding acid to balance it out. Or you might like it just as is.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Ok Dave thanks. ive a temp controled ferment fridge sitting at 19-20 max. it did drop abit 15-18 during the nite. I have keged it and put co2 in to stop any more activity.now i will leave it for a week or so to see. thanks again for your help.


----------



## Airgead

Did you taste it? Keen to find out how it came out.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Hey Dave. Yes mate I tasted it bf putting in the keg wasn't very nice tbh. Now it's been chilled and carbonated it's quite nice. Nit to dry. I back sweetened with 1 lt of Apple juice as I put it in the keg. Over All very happy with my first attempt. Thanks again for all your he


Airgead said:


> Did you taste it? Keen to find out how it came out.


----------



## Airgead

Wow.. 1.018 finishing and back sweetened as well. That's a sweet tooth you have there.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

"back sweetened" is a begininers statement.I added the apple juice more for flavor than anything else.As This was my first brew ive not tasted a hot noncarbonated cider before.Thanks to your help it has turned out very nice.Its not over sweet on the finish and i think its the moltodextrin giving it a high Fg. Ive had four Stines of the stuff today and can say its very drinkable.Stightly tart not to sweet.A great start i feel.


----------



## philmud

I didn't think it warranted a new thread, but I'm curious if anyone has used BRY97 in a cider? I just popped some in my first cider because its what I had on hand and I see people use US-05 quite often.
I pitched a pack into 6L of apple juice and an 840ml can of pear juice, along with some rehydrated yeast nutrient.

Anyone used this yeast in cider before?


----------



## Airgead

Cracked the first keg of this year's cider. Tasting pretty good. Will carb up the second keg and do a side by side between the two yeasts (71B and CRU005).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## LiquidGold

Just a couple of quick questions so figured a new thread wasn't necessary. I've done one batch of simple cider and although I like it I'd like to play around with more flavours in my next batch.

I have some frozen mulberries I picked myself from a tree that was screened off and didn't appear to have any fruit fly. I'm considering racking onto them after primary is finished. Anyone done this? Too big a risk of infection?

Also considering adding mint and I was wondering if fresh leaves or a tea would be best. Primary or in secondary with the mulberries?

Cheers


----------



## Airgead

Adding fruit in secondary is pretty common. I do it all the time with my meads (not ciders though... If I start making berry ciders, someone please come and take my man card away).

You will be dumping into an acidic, alcoholic, anaerobic environment. Not exactly friendly conditions for nasties. the only one you really need to worry about is aecetobacter which will turn things to vinegar. That likes oxygen so make sure you introduce as little as possible. Also, add the fruit just when primary subsides. That way the yeast will fire up again quickly, scavenge any introduced oxygen and also out compete any other bugs you put in there.

You can also add the fruit in the primary which is safer but I find that the vigorous primary fermentation scrubs off a lot of the flavours. If I add when primary has subsided I get a much more gentle secondary fermentation that leaves the flavours intact.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## LiquidGold

Thanks for that Airgead, very informative. Do you ever use vanilla beans or spices in your ciders as that is another approach I am considering

Cheers

EDIT: more to the point.


----------



## Airgead

Again, not in ciders. i'm a bit of a purist there (or more importantly, the missus is a bit if a purist).

I do make spiced meads though.

The trick is to add a little, wait, taste and if it needs more, wait longer or add another small amount. Its really easy to overdo spices. I add in secondary essentially as a dry hop. The only exception is ginger which is riddles with lactic bacteria. that I tend to add as a tea made from boiled ginger (dry or fresh).

Normally, 1/2 a stick of cinnamon or 2 cloves in a 5l batch for a few days is enough. Vanilla you could dose with essence to work out how much or steep an inch or so of vanilla pod for a day or so.

Whatever you do, use the smallest amount you can. taste early. taste often. Pull the spices out just before you think there is enough. They may intensify with aging and its much easier to add more later than to take some out if it becomes too intense.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## LiquidGold

Ok yeah that makes sense to add little by little and tasting often instead of hoping for the best. I think I have a pretty good idea how I'll go about the next batch whenever I finally get around to it.

Thanks for your input, you have been very helpfull.

LG


----------



## einnebcj

Thanks Airgead (and other contributors) for this post - finally gave me the 'get-up' to put my first cider down.

Here's what I did....
Picked up about 8 kgs of mixed Granny Smith, Royal Gala and Sundowner apples from the Central Markets for $1.50 a kg and about 3 kgs of pears for the same price. Popped into Coles and got 2x2.4l Apple and Pear juice - 2 for $6. 

Recipe went as follows:
4.8l of Apple Pear Juice
2.6 kg of Granny's
3 kg of pears
2.5 kg of sundowners/royal galas - all juiced up in the Breville
200g of Demera sugar (because it was in the pantry) steeped in about 500ml of boiled water with two tea bags 
Pitched about 5g of Mangrove Jacks Cider yeast into the 10 litre total liquid

Glad wrap over the top and see what the hell happens!

Stay tuned.......

Chris


----------



## heyhey

Is there a way to deactivate the yeast to retain some natural sweetness without boiling and consequently changing the flavours?


----------



## manticle

Also adding your flavours to a glass bit by bit and calculating how much you need for a whole batch can be an indicator. Obviously flavour is a function of more than just amounts (time, temperature,etc) but you can get a rough guide for additions that way.

Heyhey; I've never tried it but bottle pasteurisation is one method people report success with. Info in detail on the homebrewtalk site.


----------



## heyhey

Cheers boss, if only the missus could appreciate a something more bitter LOL. But then again, I don't want to be with a bloke


----------



## manticle

What do you want Dave?

I wanna **** a bloke. Then I want a big strong bloke to **** me in the arse. You go and play with your girly tits ya fag. Straight - it's the new gay.

Sorry - thinking of another topic. Fully fermented cider won't be especially bitter unless you put loads of apple pips in. Will likely be tart, towards sour and definitely dry.

For anyone who doesn't understand:

The above is from a comedy skit, linked below. The use of the name Dave is entirely incidental to the OP of this thread as you will see if you follow the link.

I make and enjoy cider and do not equate it to a testament of someone's masculinity/femininity/effemininity, gender or sexuality. I am also not concerned with anybody's innate, chosen or preferred: sexuality, gender or beverage. I made a joke (really a reference to someone else's joke) and I'm very, very sorry that some people are stupid enough to misunderstand.


----------



## heyhey

That's what I meant, tart and dry. And that has nothing to do with bloke on bloke relations.


----------



## manticle

For context of the above:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71795-gay-marriage-law-passed-in-nz/?p=1087609


----------



## heyhey

I know, I've already read the last few pages of that thread


----------



## manticle

Someone obviously hasn't.

People should read properly before getting uppity and reporting posts they don't understand.

Not aimed at anyone specific because I have no idea who it was but please, whoever you are -try and work out context, especially when offered. The above stuff about girly tits and so forth was from a comedy skit, linked in my other post which is very plainly suggesting homophobia is entirely illogical and absurd.


Unless it was just a couple of swear words that made someone call the adults - in which case try this forum

http://www.kidzworld.com/forums

or the i take stuff literally forum. Whichever shoe fits I guess.

Sorry Airgead for the totally off topic stuff.


----------



## ///

So I was wondering;

* about adding sulphur to inhibit any unwanteds, esp for juice that may not have yeast pitched straight away
* using a candied sugar, if most wine yeast can only go after glucose then what about invert
* if folks want to sweeten and stop re-fermentation couldn't you just filter with a 5 micron filter and pasturise. Could do this in a cornie and a large brewing kettle, heating the water slowly to pasturising temps and cooling in your fridge. Would save the hassles with the sweetness dissapeering? Standard cornie should be able to take and expand/vacumm from the heat/cool cycle.
* and does leaving on the skins and any oxidation of such add any colour if using real fruit?

Scotty


----------



## manticle

From my experience/understanding:

Commercial ciders use sulphites to stabilise and increase shelf life. It's unnecessary in non commercial stuff and it gives me a headache.

Invert sugar is fructose and glucose yes? Can't wine yeast ferment fructose? Interesting idea if not.

Pretty sure people filter and keg and just keep cold for sweeter cider. Pasteurising and adding things like potassiuam sorbate are used to hinder yeast activity (and sulphites) - just depends what you want to/don't want to add. Chance of pasteurising changing flavour maybe? Do you pasteurise beer for shelf life? is there a point of comparison with flavour changes?
Bottle pasteurisation is mentioned above.

Last one I can't answer. Proper cider doesn't peel the apples when juicing but it does use the juice rather than any solids.

Also racking and keeving are methods used for less dry cider but are more complex than 'simple cider' methods.


----------



## Airgead

/// said:


> So I was wondering;
> 
> * about adding sulphur to inhibit any unwanteds, esp for juice that may not have yeast pitched straight away
> * using a candied sugar, if most wine yeast can only go after glucose then what about invert
> * if folks want to sweeten and stop re-fermentation couldn't you just filter with a 5 micron filter and pasturise. Could do this in a cornie and a large brewing kettle, heating the water slowly to pasturising temps and cooling in your fridge. Would save the hassles with the sweetness dissapeering? Standard cornie should be able to take and expand/vacumm from the heat/cool cycle.
> * and does leaving on the skins and any oxidation of such add any colour if using real fruit?
> 
> Scotty


Hi Scotty

Yep. Sulphur will work as a preservative and stabiliser same as it does for wine. I don't use it cos my missus is allergic. It will mean that you have to force carb which is fine if you keg but a lot of the questions here seem to be coming from those poor sods who still bottle.

Never tried an invert sugar. Might be worth an experiment. I'm not sure how the wine yeast will respond. Its probably strain dependent. i'll have to look into that.Although thinking about it, Honey is an invert sugar (at least partially) and the wine yeast has no trouble with that. I think its the more complex sugars wine yeast won't eat. not sure it cares whether its invert or not. Some candy sugar with some longer chain sugars might be a goer though.

You can sterile filter and/or pasturise but again, requires force carbing. I'd go the filter over the pasturisation. I spent years in industrial control designing control systems for industrial pasturisers. They sound simple but to get them working without overheating or changing flavours is not simple. Not really sure how it would go on a homebrew scale. Again, it limits you to force carbing.

Generally for cider you crush the whole apple, skin, seeds, core. The pulp is discarded and just the juice retained so there are no skins as such to leave the juice on. Its not like a wine where the whole fruit is fermented then the juice is pressed from the skins later. The juice will naturally oxidise on its own if left exposed. That does darken it and will change the flavour. A little oxidisation of the juice can be a desirable thing. I generally leave my juice overnight to settle after pressing and I get just a touch of oxidisation to darken the colour. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## fletcher

just wanted to pop in a note here. not related to any above post but wanted to strongly promote just how much bottle conditioning REALLY work. I wanted to echo the sentiments of people like JDW81 and Airgead and others who've mentioned it. for all the newbies to cider (like me)...it works well.

I've had a simple batch (i think i'd even mentioned it at the start of this thread) that i'd bottled some of and just left in my fridge. remembered they were there yesterday and tried one, and it's been conditioning for months now. tasted bloody amazing.


----------



## ///

Reading thru a few wine making books they definately do not make Sulphur an easy thing to consider. If we can avoid it then great

I'll check on the invert as well, was just thinking out loud.

The 5 micron is really only a rough filter for yeast and in beer, protein. Sterile is absolutes less than 1 micron, and these do affect flavour. Also needs a series of filtrations, aka DE, a DE trap filter (only needed if any bleed) then a <5 nominal and <1 absloute.

Pasturising can and will impact flavour, but it would be easy in a get to temp and regulate, the cooling would be another matter. But a skinny tall post mix keg would chill down quickly enough. 

Anyways, things you can do.


----------



## FlyingRain

I've done a few kit ciders. About to do my first cider from apples.

But I have a question that's rather newbish. When I chuck the apples in the blender, does the whole apple go in, or do I remove the core/pips etc?

Also, you brewers keep on saying that you buy some juice from Woolies/Coles/Aldi for taste. But from what I've read elsewhere, you need juice without preservatives, vitamin c, flavouring etc. When I've looked at Woolies and Coles they all have something added. What gives?


----------



## The Gas Man

FlyingRain said:


> I've done a few kit ciders. About to do my first cider from apples.
> 
> But I have a question that's rather newbish. When I chuck the apples in the blender, does the whole apple go in, or do I remove the core/pips etc?
> 
> Also, you brewers keep on saying that you buy some juice from Woolies/Coles/Aldi for taste. But from what I've read elsewhere, you need juice without preservatives, vitamin c, flavouring etc. When I've looked at Woolies and Coles they all have something added. What gives?


If you've got the time, take a trip up to Darkes Forest Orchard (near Helensburgh).

They sell their apple juice in both filtered and unfiltered state.

Just add yeast to their juice, latose sugar (for sweetness) and pear juice after fermentation has completed for additional sweetness.

The girls love it.

I'm making one this weekend just in time for Christmas.


----------



## bum

The Gas Man said:


> Just add yeast ... pear juice after fermentation has completed for additional sweetness.


Very dangerous if bottling. Somewhat unpredictable if kegging. Pear juice is probably better added to primary.


----------



## FlyingRain

The Gas Man said:


> If you've got the time, take a trip up to Darkes Forest Orchard (near Helensburgh).


Which produces the best results - filtered or unfiltered. I live in Wollongong, so Helensburgh is only a stones throw away.


----------



## The Gas Man

FlyingRain said:


> Which produces the best results - filtered or unfiltered. I live in Wollongong, so Helensburgh is only a stones throw away.


As you would expect the filtered apple juice gives a clearer looking cider, however I prefer the taste of the unfiltered cider. The only issue is that your cider will also be cloudy if you use the unfiltered.

Both are good but appearances can count for alot when your offering it to newcomers.


----------



## Airgead

FlyingRain said:


> I've done a few kit ciders. About to do my first cider from apples.
> 
> But I have a question that's rather newbish. When I chuck the apples in the blender, does the whole apple go in, or do I remove the core/pips etc?


Whole apple. Cores pips and stem. Particularly if you are using eating apples. Those bits add some tannins that give a little body to otherwise very bland juice.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead

Airgead said:


> Cracked the first keg of this year's cider. Tasting pretty good. Will carb up the second keg and do a side by side between the two yeasts (71B and CRU005).
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Did the side by side over the weekend. Surprising result.

Had been using the CRU005 for a few years and was happy with the result. Tried it side by side with my standard mead yeast (71B) just for shits & giggles. Wasn't expecting much difference.

The winner by a clear margin is the 71B. The CRU ended up bone dry with a nice apple flavour but had little mouth feel and felt a bit thin and very tart. I will try some additions of tanin to see if that firms things up. The 71B maintained a slight hint of sweetness, loads of apple flavour and better mouth feel. Still tart but a smoother acid. I think it metabolises more of the malic acid than the CRU.

This was a real side by side. Same batch of juice from 80% pink lady and 20% granny smith. Pressed together and split into 2 kegs. Fermented side by side in the same fridge under identical conditions. Aged and carbed side by side as well. The only difference is the yeast.

Looks like I can standardise on a single yeast for both mead and cider. Long live the mighty 71B! 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## lael

Hi Dave, looking at doing a cider in the next few days. You mentioned using a yeast nutrient to deal with the sulpher smells during fermentation etc. How much and how would you add it? ( given that there is no cooking like in a beer boil) 

Ever used the wyeast cider yeast? Any thoughts? Where did you get the mead yeast from?

Thanks!


----------



## ///

Paul, Glenburnie sells unfiltered juice. Am there!

Have set off a Woolies Juice cider, flat it tastes better than some of the commercials i have had. The more expensive super market juice seemed to have a lot of extra bits and pieces in it, including caramel. 

Being a yeast spotter, the yeast fell out pretty quick .. bit of sulphur came out in ferment, but all gone now


----------



## Airgead

lael said:


> Hi Dave, looking at doing a cider in the next few days. You mentioned using a yeast nutrient to deal with the sulpher smells during fermentation etc. How much and how would you add it? ( given that there is no cooking like in a beer boil)
> 
> Ever used the wyeast cider yeast? Any thoughts? Where did you get the mead yeast from?
> 
> Thanks!


Yeast nutrient - depends on which one you get. there are heaps on the market. Use as directed...

I did use the wyeast cider yeast for a few years before switching to the dry yeasts. Does a pretty good job but I was finding that with only one cider brew/year I couldn't keep the yeast in culture so had to buy it fresh each year (yeah i know... I'm cheap). I find the dry yeasts do a really good job and are easier to manage.

I get my 71B from ibrew (ibrew.com.au).. its only available in 100g packs which will last almost forever for most people. I tent do burn through it pretty quick though as I do a lot of mead brewing as well.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## davewaldo

Hello everyone, its been a while!

I've had a bit of good luck yesterday and scored a wine press and crusher for only $155 off ebay! Its quite a biggie as I plan to get more into making ciders. I've done several small batches but I'm keen to put down something more, and to be able to do some test batches from a single pressing.

Airgread - What do you use to crush and juice your apples for your large batches? Do you think I can use the grape crusher? I'd probably need to break the apples up a bit first. 

I plan to contact some orchardists in Stanthorpe to source some fruit, I see some are now growing cider varieties. 

Anyways, heres a pic of my score - Its a #50 press so should hold 130L of fruit! Any tips welcome 

Dave.


----------



## Greg.L

You will need an apple shredder of some sort, or freeze the apples. You can use a garden mulcher, build a scratter or just bash them with some timber in a bucket.


----------



## idzy

Must say quite a fun experiment. A mate and I added 5 litres to 5 different 10 litre jerries and fermented at 17c with 5 different yeasts. Amazing how different they all turned out with the same basic store bought juice.


----------



## Airgead

A grape press won't work for apples. Apple crushers are similar but the rollers have extra bits to help shred the hard fruit. Good news is that most wine crushers can be fitted with hard fruit rollers as an accessory. You may be able to find a set for your one.

At the moment I spend a whole day slicing apples and feeding them through a screw press juicer. its stupidly slow and really hard work but the yield is good. This year I'm getting an apple crusher (never even thought of ebay... good tip) and will pour the pulp through the juicer as I didn't pull my finger out in time to make a press. That should speed things up.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Greg.L

Airgead said:


> A grape press won't work for apples. Apple crushers are similar but the rollers have extra bits to help shred the hard fruit. Good news is that most wine crushers can be fitted with hard fruit rollers as an accessory. You may be able to find a set for your one.


I think you mean the crusher won't work. The grape press will work fine for shredded apples, not as well as some other presses but it will do the job ok.


----------



## davewaldo

Thanks guys, I think I'll try to make up some sort of shredder to sit above the grinding wheels that will replace the agitator bar. I think this should chop the apples quite small then the grinding wheels will squish it some more. What do you think? See this apple crusher uses similar rollers but replaces the agitator bar with a cutter:





I'll post what I come up with.

Dave.


----------



## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> I think you mean the crusher won't work. The grape press will work fine for shredded apples, not as well as some other presses but it will do the job ok.


Yep. Quite right. Sorry. Slip of the fingers. that will teach me to rush a post out on my way to a meeting...


----------



## GurkanYeniceri

Can somebody tell me who is selling CRU-005 and 71B yeasts in Australia.


----------



## Airgead

ibrew.com.au has the 71B but only in 100g packs. Winequip sells both but only on 500g packs.

They aren't easy to get in smaller sizes. A few people here did a bulk buy a few years back and split a 500g block between them. Could be a good option if there are enough interested.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## GurkanYeniceri

Thanks Airgead, I saw the ibrew one and yes it is expensive.

What is the shelf life of these if I keep it in my freezer. Or where they should be kept?


----------



## Airgead

I keep em in the fridge. In a sealed bag they last for quite a while. my first batch lasted at least 3 years but these days I tend to go through it a bit quicker...


----------



## GurkanYeniceri

Airgead, can you please point me out to CRU-005 at winequip's web site. I couldn't locate it.


----------



## ahmatti

Hi all,

new to home brew..started me first batch of cider on the wkend..just goin a simple recipe of 15l of aldi apple juice, added 750g of dextrose..plan on playing with the recipe with later brews..didnt taste too sweet..used a cider yeast recommended by local home brew store..SG was 1.062..starting bubble away through air lock..

plan on bottling into used stubbie bottles..

will let how it turns out..


----------



## Airgead

Ahhh...just had a look and its not on their yeast page any more. That was where the original bulk buy got it from. They must have stopped carrying it since.

Its a mycoferm strain and it looks like winequip now only do lalamand.

A quick google turns up EnolTech as another posibility - http://www.enoltech.com.au/products/ever-mycoferm-yeast-mlf-cultures-nutrients/yeast-strains/ever-yeast-strains-3-red-wine-range/mycoferm-cru-05.html

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Greg.L

davewaldo said:


> Thanks guys, I think I'll try to make up some sort of shredder to sit above the grinding wheels that will replace the agitator bar. I think this should chop the apples quite small then the grinding wheels will squish it some more. What do you think? See this apple crusher uses similar rollers but replaces the agitator bar with a cutter:
> 
> 
> I'll post what I come up with.
> 
> Dave.


There are some hand operated scratters that are the same as your crusher but with blades instead of rollers, so you might be able to adapt yours or try to buy blades to fit. From most reports they are a lot of work, but if you are doing less than 100kg they should be ok. Some people adapt them to work with electric motors, if you are good at diy there are some good plans for drum scratters on the net.


----------



## davewaldo

Greg.L said:


> There are some hand operated scratters that are the same as your crusher but with blades instead of rollers, so you might be able to adapt yours or try to buy blades to fit. From most reports they are a lot of work, but if you are doing less than 100kg they should be ok. Some people adapt them to work with electric motors, if you are good at diy there are some good plans for drum scratters on the net.


Thanks Greg, I've started a DIY build and its going very well. I'll post some pics in the next few days


----------



## GurkanYeniceri

Airgead said:


> Ahhh...just had a look and its not on their yeast page any more. That was where the original bulk buy got it from. They must have stopped carrying it since.
> 
> Its a mycoferm strain and it looks like winequip now only do lalamand.
> 
> A quick google turns up EnolTech as another posibility - http://www.enoltech.com.au/products/ever-mycoferm-yeast-mlf-cultures-nutrients/yeast-strains/ever-yeast-strains-3-red-wine-range/mycoferm-cru-05.html
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Thanks for the link Dave. It is half a Kg for nearly $50 bucks damn it.


----------



## Airgead

If you really want to give the CRU a try, I have some that I don't use any more (I find 71B to give a better result for what I do). Came from a bulk buy a few years back. Shoot me a PM and we can work something out.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## davewaldo

An update as promised: So, in order to get my new grape crusher to handle apples I've been building a smoosher  to replace the agitator bar. 

Here is what I have so far - a new 1" axel turned from aluminium, and then threaded for some 6mm 304 stainless steel rod. 

The plan is that I'll make a grating from the same stainless rod supported in a wooden panel so that any apples must go through this before reaching the rollers.

The tines move in such a way as they progress towards the centre as it rotates - hopefully this will encourage the apples to stay slightly more central. 

It will take some muscle to move all this but I plan to fit an electric motor utilising the v-belt pulley. Total cost so far for mods $15.50

Can anyone see any issues?

Dave.


----------



## Greg.L

You shouldn't have aluminium in contact with the apples, but you could paint the axle with varnish. Apple juice is pretty acidic.
You don't need the rollers at all for apples, I think they would just get in the way. A screen of stainless steel might be better.


----------



## lael

an update - I back sweetened a batch of woollies apple cider the other day and it turned out great! Bottled with about a third 'fresh' apple juice and no sugar. Left to carbonate for 7 days (tested after three, but carbonation wasn't as high as I wanted. Then pasteurised them at 80C for 10mins in the braumiser - the temp drops by about 10C when you put a new batch in so be careful to let it get back up to full temp before you put in a second round. I had two bottles pop their crown tops, but no breakages. Lid of the brau was on - so no harm done. I measured the temp of the cider in the second one that popped it's top and it was easily above what is needed within the five mins or so (76C) that it was in the brau. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pasteurization-methods-temperatures-d_1642.html%C2 Cider didn't taste great the same day - but excellent the next day / two after refridgeration. Nice blend of dry and sweet. 

Things that helped make this cider better than the last one I did (it was.... scrumpy...) - yeast nutrient at start of ferment (boiled in small amount water and then pitched in), added tannins from tea bags (about 5-6 bags 500ml for a while - to taste - it was more noticeable in the samples, but worked well with the backsweetening), long cold crash (month or so?), and pasteurisation to get sweet finish. Very tasty.


----------



## mr_wibble

Is it OK to use waxed apples from the supermarket ?


----------



## Airgead

Mr Wibble said:


> Is it OK to use waxed apples from the supermarket ?


Yep. As long as its this years harvest and they haven't been in cold store since last year. If they have, while you can use them, they will be pretty flavorless.

It will also cost you a fortune that way. If you get them from a grower you will pay a lot less.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Bax

Hi guys, thanks for this thread. I've been contemplating doing cider for a long time now and I can't believe I've only just stumbled across this section.

I live in central qld, so fresh apples are an impossibility, in fact I didn't even think I could get preservative free juice until the other day. It's 6 bucks for 2L, but that's still cheaper than some ciders.

So in summary, what does this plan seem like.
Buy 2x 2L bottles of apple juice.
Drop 3L into a large 3L bottle of sorts (Seems a waste of time putting it into the fermenter for only 3L?)
Drop in a sachet of yeast.
Put into the fridge at 15 degrees.
Wait for FG.
Bottle with Standard carbing sugars, 2 candy drops per bottle.

Wait.... Serve and top up with remaining Juice to lift the freshness up?


----------



## Airgead

Should work fine. You won't need a full packet of yeast. They are usually good for 25l so just a quarter or so will do.

The addition of juice will add sweetness and make it taste like apple juice instead of cider. In other words it will taste like commercial sweet ciders. if that's your thing then go for it. Or you could drink it like the cider gods intended...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Bax

Cheers Dave I'll give it a go.

I absolutely love Willie Smiths Organic apple cider. Unortunately it's a damn expensive drop that requires delivery. I don't like it ridiculously sweet, but if it's too dry.... I'll try it without any apple juice but I've got a feeling I'll need a small amount.


----------



## fuseo

Just put down a "Black Rock Cider" kit and kilo. My first attempt so heres hoping it turns out great! Method below needs to be critqued.


23 Ltr Coopers Fermenter
Cleaned and sanitised all equipment
Kilo of the sugar (bought from Sutherland Brew Shop)
2 Ltr of hot water stirred through 
Poured the Black Rock juice in
Added 2 x 800ml Pear Juice cans (no preservatives or colours) from Woolies
Topped up to the 23 Ltr mark
Put on the Krausen Kollar
Yeast added (yeast was the pre packaged one under the lid of can)
Original temp was 26 degrees
OG was 1037
From here is where I will need assistance, how long do I wait to bottle? What FG is recommended? I have a mix true of "Corona" bottles and long necks to use so normal carb drop quantity is okay? 

P.S. Temp has dropped down to 24 degrees today so hopefully it can sustain this temp for the rest of the fermentation.


----------



## Airgead

Wait till its done. Then let it clear. Cider likes some time to mature.

The FG is usually 1.000 for a cider made from juice. Not sure about the kits.

Once you are sure its finished and its clear, bottle away. Usual amount of carbonation will be fine.


----------



## fuseo

Thanks Airgead


----------



## fuseo

Quick update on my Black Rock K&K with additional Pear juice.

Gravity is at 1.012 and it tastes and smells like cider so I guess it's almost ready to be bottled. I am keen for this to be great when drank so I guess about three months should do the trick.

P.S. Does "racking off" mean to bottle ones poison?


----------



## fuseo

It's a bit dry too. Maybe bordering on sourish. Can I sweeten it a tad before bottling?


----------



## Airgead

Yes... and no...

You can sweeten but will have to use a sugar that is unfermentable. Otherwise the yeast will pick up again and just ferment it back out.

Or you can stabilise with sorbistat or another yeast inhibitor or sterile filter or pasturise and sweeten then. Trouble is you then have to force carb because there is no yeast to bottle condition.

Or you can just add some apple juice to the glass when you pour.

Or just man up and drink cider the way its intended 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## fuseo

Thanks Dave! 

Good info there. Ultimately I am a dry cider drinker but wanted to ask the question for the sake of the Mrs as she will undoubtedly not like it too dry.


----------



## Airgead

I dunno... my Mrs likes it dry (that sounds so wrong...)

I should have added that you can use an unfermentable sugar like lactose (unless your mrs is lactose intolerant) or use an artificial sweetener (unless you think they taste foul).

Sweet cider is a challenge.


----------



## Not For Horses

Airgead said:


> Sweet cider is a challenge.


Making it AND drinking it.
Yuck!
Cider is dry. The abomination that is Rekorderlig is not cider.


----------



## Airgead

Ahh yes... but what about a sweet Normandy style cider? Made by keeving the juice to retard the fermentation?

Cider is a broad church and we must accept all comers. Except rekordelig. That really is muck.


----------



## manticle

returdalig


----------



## Wilkensone

Just started my first cider attempt ~5l fermenting at 18 degrees. 
Berry preservative free juice
Yeast nutrient
MJ cider yeast rehydrated. 
OG was 1.046

I'm no expert but seems to have kicked off after just 3 hours 





(Not the best pic!)

OT these 5l demi's seem a great way to test out small batches!


----------



## fuseo

Looks the goods to me mate! :beerdrink:


----------



## Yeastfridge

I've wanted to brew a really good real cider (dry, wild ferment, non-back sweetened) for a while now and I think maybe this is the year for me.

I spoke to the maker of my favourite cider a few weeks back and I was surprised to hear he wasn't using cider apples. It's very dry, appley, refreshing and somewhere around 7.5%. Can't seem to find it online, only a link to his wines. He told me he makes the cider with a mix of all kinds of dessert apples, leaves the pressed juice on the pulp for a day or so (a process similar to leaving wine "on skins" to get a bit of tannin and tartness in there), then wild ferments in an oak barrel.

I could do the skin contact but at this point in my life don't have space for any barrels. 

Done anything like this?


----------



## Wilkensone

I haven't but I'd be keen to hear some feedback too!


Wilkens


----------



## TimT

_Done anything like this?_

Hah, there was that failed mead attempt of mine where I just chucked in the honey and water with cut up bits of apples and oranges. Oh, foolish, foolish, foolish me! If there was wild yeast it didn't have any enthusiasm at all about the fact that I'd just chucked it in a gigantic vat of yeast-food. As a consequence an acetobacter soon found a happy residence in the barrel....

Next time I try a trick like that with mead, I might try something rather different -
reserve a small portion of must first;
make sure to add some sort of nutrient to keep the yeast happy; honey on its own just ain't going to be good enough;
when there are definitive signs of a yeast fermentation, chuck in the rest of the brew.

Cider, however, is different: I've heard that just by pressing the juice out of the apples and then leaving it to itself a natural yeast fermentation will kick off. Well, maybe: if we collect enough apples this year for cider I might give it a go.


----------



## Yeastfridge

I got 7 litres of already-beginning-to-ferment Nudie apple juice in swollen plastic bottles free last Sunday, put a couple in the freezer, put a couple into a 2L glass flask with a peel of plum just in case (apparently that white coat on fruit skin is yeast). It dropped from 1.050 to 1.032 in a week and has some nice looking yeast sediment on the bottom and a very light yeasty ring on top. Hopefully with time it'll completely ferment out. No airlock on top but bubbles of CO2 keep rising up out of it, you can see them going. If it tastes good I was thinking of adding it to the big batch.
If it's bubbling from the bottom does that mean it's lager yeast?


----------



## Airgead

Apple skins do have quite a bit of yeast on them so getting a wild fermentation started isn't too hard. It is a lottery though. Some will turn out great. others not so much. For me its too much work pressing and crushing to risk it. I'll stick with adding yeast.

When crushing/pressing, put the whole apple through, skins cores, stems and all. that will give you that little bit of tannin. If you need more yuo can always look at adding some black tea or some grape tannin.


----------



## TimT

Oh yeah, and why would you peel the apples before? That's just adding another couple of hours work!


----------



## Not For Horses

TimT said:


> Oh yeah, and why would you peel the apples before? That's just adding another couple of hours work!


Good lord that would be horrible!
We're doing about 300kgs of apples in a few weeks. The thought peeling them makes me feel bad inside.

Going to do a split batch, half with a cider or ale yeast and half with a natural ferment.


----------



## Greg.L

Leaving the pulp for a day before pressing is fairly common practice, it is helpful if you are keeving. If you are not keeving I can't see the point of it, though it certainly doesn't hurt. They macerate perry that way but it is actually to reduce the bitterness, I think it helps to precipitate out the tannins in some high tannin perry pears.


----------



## Tahoose

Made a small batch cider the other day.

8ltrs
7 ltrs Aldi Apple Juice
500g brown sugar dissolved in 500mls of water
2 tea bags soaked in 200ml of boiled water

Fermenting at ambient temps with Nottingham ale yeast.

OG 1.056

Will report back when finished


----------



## Yeastfridge

Curious to hear how the tea goes. Thinking about juicing some pomegranates for tannin and acidity


----------



## Tahoose

I'm hoping I get a little bit of tannin from the tea, and maybe a little bit of residual sweetness from the brown sugar, although I should look at how fermentable brown sugar is I suppose.

I made the recipe to these specs so it would be easy to double or triple if it goes ok.


----------



## Mutaneer

Hi all,
I'm new to cider making and am up to my 3rd batch now, although none have come to drinking stage yet. I'm aiming for 8 weeks or more conditioning if i can resist the temptation.

Being from Tassie I have access to some great local apples, and a heap of great craft cider-makers who's brains I've been picking at every opportunity.

I've just been keeping it completely simple at the moment with fresh unpastuerised juice, two different strains of yeast (DV10, EC1118) to experiment with and some go-ferm nutrient., 
My aim is a simple, dry, carbonated cider.

Curently the juice has been 80% Jonagold and 20% Fuji
But I believe the new season juice coming through will have a mixture of red and green delicious, although no less than 50% Jonagold
If anyone has some thoughts on juice/ fruit selection, then I'm all ears. We have a huge variety of Apples produced down here and a number of different suppliers I can get it from.
Currently seeing an Initial SG at around 1.06. and 18'c.

Anyway,
Started off doing 2 x 5L batches, one of each yeast and just using pure white CSR sugar for bottle conditioning
My next 2x 5L batches were still one of each yeast, but come bottling, I've split them each and used white sugar in half and brown sugar in the other.
My hope is that may impart some of the caramel flavours

And my third batch which was thrown together only yesterday is simply 23L using only the DV10 yeast
I've found the DV10 gives a smoother and sweeter flavour, and on the second batch even had a slight "creamy" taste after 3 weeks racking.


----------



## Not For Horses

I had good success last year with 50/50 Jonagold and Granny.
This year I've got Jonathon, Jonagold, Granny and Pink Lady and maybe some Fuji later on if the first 150L from those 4 doesn't suffice...
They would be my pick of the commercially available apples down here.
If you could find someone growing Coxs Orange then that would be great. I had a feeling that there might be some around in Huonville somewhere.

I've tried the brown sugar at bottling. It makes extremely close to zero difference to the flavour.


----------



## Greg.L

I think the ripeness is more important than the variety, with non-cider varieties. If you have a choice get out your refractometer and take the apples with the highest brix, chances are they will make the best cider. Fully ripe grannies are good for cider, but if they are under-ripe they won't give much flavour.
Also apples from cold store lose their acid, so apples from the current season are best.


----------



## Mutaneer

I'm just relying on the producers bringing juice along to the local farmers markets, so don;t really have a choice.
The one I'm using now do make and sell a lot of their own juice mixes.

Interesting about the addition of tea.

And finally, I'm toying with the idea of barrel aging some cider, 
As one of our "big" craft producers down here (Willie Smiths) have a wonderful Lark Whiskey, Barrel-Aged Cider


----------



## Airgead

Yeast wise DV10 and EC1118 are both quite similar. If you can get hold of some try some CRU005 or 71B. Both can partly metabolise malic acid (which the others can't) which mellows out the acidity in the juice and makes it seem a little sweeter than it really is.

For apples you want a balance of sweet, acid and tannin. Most eating apples are low in tannin. Most are also low in acid. I find about 20% granny smith in the mix adds plenty of acidity. Tannin is harder to get with commercial apples though.


----------



## Mutaneer

Have just had a quick chat with the supplier tonight and he's informed me the last couple of batches of juice have had a reasonable amount of Red Delicious in with them so there should be a decent amount of Tanin.

I'll probably leave this batch as is, but might experiment with some tea in the next one.

At the end of the day, $30 gets me 25L of juice, so if i ruin a batch or two in the process, it's not a big cost at all.
Especially compared with paying $10 per 750ml bottle of the good craft ciders available locally.

And I'm all for experimenting with different yeats, etc.
But i'm trying to steer clear of using anything artificial to boost it.
I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to things like this, so using different natural ingredients/ aging/ yeasts to get the desired result is all part of the journey.
And you get a buzz from the finished product.

I also bought a 5L charred oak barrel too.
I'll need to flush and flavour it with whiskey for a few months first, but should give some interesting results


----------



## Mutaneer

Just reporting in here
we finally opened the first matured bottles of my first batch of cider over the weekend,
Simplest recepie, Just pure fresh local juice (80% Jonagold, 20% Fuji, i think) and some using DV10 and some using EC1118 yeasts
no other additives at all, fermented fully dry and it's had 8 weeks in the bottle.

I was astounded at how good it actually was. it was dry, but nothing like the mouth puckering dryness it had before carbonation.
And even the otehr drinkers who like the lolly water stuff, really enjoyed it, 
so much so that all bar 2 bottles of my first 10L batch were gone in a few hours.. 

I'm really considering not bothering with any more additions to my batches.
The simplest recipe is brilliant, easily drinkable straight from the fridge, 4' but even better up at about 8'.

SO i'll probably just bang out 20L batches of the simple variant and do smaller 5L batches with different additives.


----------



## H0U5ECAT

Is it OK to use tetra long life juice?
I always thought that the heat treated juice was a little questionable to ferment.
Anywho, I'm going to do a batch with the juice from a company called "black rock". 
I've tried his juice and it tastes rather decent.
Looking through recipes on the net, I decided to also add in some honey.

I was in Maitland and picked up some really nice iron bark honey.
Doing a few small batch tests, I worked out about 180ml of honey to 20ltrs of juice and I have a pearler of cider.

Now... My question is...
If I want a nice and clear cider, can I add Irish moss or similar?


----------



## TimT

We have a 4 litre scrumpy we've just started: windfall apples from around Bright and Wandiligong and a few of our own garden pickings - mostly Granny Smith and Pink Lady. Did the milling and crushing at home which shortened the process considerably, though it was still a lot of hard work. A few raisins thrown into the mix to give the yeast something to think about. Champagne yeast (can't remember exactly which variety). Last year we did a similar batch and after three quarters of a year it came out really well. So, er, I'll let you know how this lot goes.... in 10 months or so.


----------



## TimT

The original gravity, btw, was around 1.064/1.063 - probably 1.063, making a correction for the temp here at the moment.

How many people bother carbonating their cider here? I'm not really sold on the idea - I know it makes it more like commercial/champagne ciders but I suspect it would obscure more than it would reveal.


----------



## Airgead

H0U5ECAT said:


> Is it OK to use tetra long life juice?
> 
> If I want a nice and clear cider, can I add Irish moss or similar?


Ummm.... yeah. You can. Will it make a great cider? Probably not. It will ferment but you'll want to add plenty of oxygen and nutrient to start things off.

And yes, you can add irish moss. I don't bother though. A few months settling and the cider is perfectly clear.


----------



## Airgead

TimT said:


> How many people bother carbonating their cider here? I'm not really sold on the idea - I know it makes it more like commercial/champagne ciders but I suspect it would obscure more than it would reveal.


Yep. I keg mine and carb just like I would a beer. Low carbonation level though. 

Apparently there are 3 levels of carbonation in cider judging - still, petulant and sparkling. Still is, well, still. Sparkling is 2.5 volume or more. often champagne type carbonation (4+ volumes). Petulant is just slightly carbonated. Sort of 1-1.5 volumes. I aim for petulant (mostly because its such a cool word).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## TimT

"Petulant!" Cool word indeed!


----------



## Not For Horses

Interesting choice of adjective...
'Irritable, impatient or sullen in a peevish or capricious way'.
Doesn't really sound like 'kinda carbonated but not really'


----------



## TimT

My aim is to give it plenty of wine flavours with the body, depth, complexity, and fragrances brought to it by the apples - I was blown away by the way our scrumpy settled out last year (after several months of ageing) into a delicious complex wine. I don't think carbonation would bring anything more to this, though the bubbles may well obscure some of the subtler flavours.

I suppose carbonation may work well with perfectly-balanced ciders and of course it's a good match for commercial ones - as it hides faults well.


----------



## Airgead

Well... its pronounced petulant but the actual spelling (now that I check) is French - petillant.


----------



## TimT

I'm guessing it means something like "little bubble", I do remember French for "small" is "Petit".


----------



## Greg.L

I carb my cider, (primed with 7g/l) and also drink it at room temperature. For craft cider room temperature allows more of the flavour to come through. For the Somerset or French styles with tannins etc drinking them chilled is a bit of a waste, you will miss a lot of the flavour.

The classic way to get petillant cider is to arrest the fermentation with either keeving or cold crashing and racking over a few months. Then when the cider is bottled there will be a slow fermentation continuing in the bottle to give a sweet petillant cider. (or bottle bombs if you don't get it right.)


----------



## TimT

Write up about our latest cider.


----------



## Tahoose

Tahoose said:


> Made a small batch cider the other day.
> 
> 8ltrs
> 7 ltrs Aldi Apple Juice
> 500g brown sugar dissolved in 500mls of water
> 2 tea bags soaked in 200ml of boiled water
> 
> Fermenting at ambient temps with Nottingham ale yeast.
> 
> OG 1.056
> 
> Will report back when finished


So I put this batch into a keg the yesterday, I have a sneaking suspicion that this was originally 
higher than the reported OG.

I put it into a 9.5 litre keg and added 1ltr of unfermented juice and a sugar syrup (3 tablespoons sugar/100ml water)

This gave it a nice semi-sweet flavour and kept every body happy. Drank well and was carbonated on the low-mid scale.

I think it must have been on the 7%abv as it knocked a few people around. Ended up with a nice golden clear colour


----------



## Wilkensone

Tahoose said:


> So I put this batch into a keg the yesterday, I have a sneaking suspicion that this was originally
> higher than the reported OG.
> 
> I put it into a 9.5 litre keg and added 1ltr of unfermented juice and a sugar syrup (3 tablespoons sugar/100ml water)
> 
> This gave it a nice semi-sweet flavour and kept every body happy. Drank well and was carbonated on the low-mid scale.
> 
> I think it must have been on the 7%abv as it knocked a few people around. Ended up with a nice golden clear colour


cmoooon show us a picture =p


----------



## Tahoose

Haha don't have one as of yet but I'll try to remember, not home so not near the keg.


----------



## Tahoose

Here you go.


----------



## Bax

I'm back, still haven't picked up any yeast yet and that's been the only thing delaying me. Was going to buy an airlock to stick into the lid of a juice bottle, but decided it'll be easier to just run it into a blow off container instead using the existing lid.

As I said, yeast is holding me back, but I noticed I have some standard coopers beer yeast sitting in the fridge door. I'm sure that I can use it, but will it be terrible?


----------



## Mutaneer

Just drop into your local HBS and get some champagne or white wine yeast, and some airlocks.
geez, i've got a dozen of them kicking around somewhere


----------



## Tahoose

Forgot the airlock, gladwrap and rubber bands are your friends.


----------



## Bax

I was going to do it in the juice container, so I figured I'd need the blow off. 

But, what about the yeast?


----------



## Tahoose

Beer yeast will work, if your doing small batches. If your going to do a large batch and put a fair bit into it, it might be worth getting a cider yeast, wyeast4766 is a popular one.

When you say juice containers do you mean the bottle that the juice comes in, if so pour 150ml or so out of the bottle, add yeast, glad wrap on top, rubber band to seal, it's about that easy.


----------



## Airgead

Tahoose said:


> Forgot the airlock, gladwrap and rubber bands are your friends.


Ummm... yeah.... not so much for cider.

Cider is more prone to oxidative damage than beer.

Its OK for the initial ferment when there is positive co2 pressure but if you intend on letting it age for any length of time once fermentation stops, you really want to use something better.I'd still use an airlock though. They are what, 5 bucks at most? And they last forever (unless you step on them).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## ciderlover

Airgead said:


> Ummm... yeah.... not so much for cider.
> 
> Cider is more prone to oxidative damage than beer.
> 
> Its OK for the initial ferment when there is positive co2 pressure but if you intend on letting it age for any length of time once fermentation stops, you really want to use something better.I'd still use an airlock though. They are what, 5 bucks at most? And they last forever (unless you step on them).
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Oh bugger!
I've had my cider fermenting in a Coopers DIY FV for almost 3 weeks. For anyone that has ever used one of these they'll know it is not an airtight container, probably only made for beer fermentation. I'll have to rush out to BIGW this arvo to grab a few dozen PET bottles and do some emergency bottling.

As this is my first cider, would you gents recommend I carbonate the bottles with plain white sugar or something else? I really want it to turn out nice and dry, I hate sweet cider.
Cheers!


----------



## TimT

_I'd still use an airlock though. They are what, 5 bucks at most? And they last forever (unless you step on them)._

Or, um, try to sterilise them in by chucking them in boiling water. Whoops.


----------



## Airgead

ciderlover said:


> Oh bugger!
> I've had my cider fermenting in a Coopers DIY FV for almost 3 weeks. For anyone that has ever used one of these they'll know it is not an airtight container, probably only made for beer fermentation. I'll have to rush out to BIGW this arvo to grab a few dozen PET bottles and do some emergency bottling.


Don't stress too much. While its actively fermenting you will be OK as there is positive co2 pressure and active yeast, both of which will protect you. Its aging that will cause problems if you allow o2 contact.

I've fermented in plastic before with no problems but transfer as soon as fermentation stops to something that isn't o2 permeable (like a keg). 

BTW - PET bottles aren't great for long term aging either. There's a reason wine is still bottled in glass.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Not For Horses

TimT said:


> Or, um, try to sterilise them in by chucking them in boiling water. Whoops.


Happened to a friend right?


----------



## ciderlover

Ah right, thanks for that info Airgead. My SG readings seems to have stabilised at around 1.003 so I guess it might be ready to bottle anyway.

Considering they just get chucked out and recycled, has anyone ever gone to their local pub or club and dumpster dived for used bottles?


----------



## TimT

_Happened to a friend right?_

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


----------



## Airgead

ciderlover said:


> Considering they just get chucked out and recycled, has anyone ever gone to their local pub or club and dumpster dived for used bottles?


Yep.. Got a good load of champagne bottles that way.


----------



## Tahoose

Airgead said:


> Ummm... yeah.... not so much for cider.
> 
> Cider is more prone to oxidative damage than beer.
> 
> Its OK for the initial ferment when there is positive co2 pressure but if you intend on letting it age for any length of time once fermentation stops, you really want to use something better.I'd still use an airlock though. They are what, 5 bucks at most? And they last forever (unless you step on them).
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Point noted.


----------



## H0U5ECAT

If you want to sweeten your cider, try adding a little spend a or some other sugar substitute.
The yeast won't eat the sugar, as there is none.

Some people here have spoken about adding cinnamon to their brews.
Because the cinnamon sticks might have some nasties attached, we can assume you never boiled the sticks, try some essence instead.


----------



## Airgead

A lot of people don't like the flavour of splenda or other artificial sweetners (I'm one of them). If you don't mine them then they are an easy way to sweeten a cider (and one used by some commercial lolly water type ciders).

Making a spice essence by extracting in hot water or string alcohol (soak a cinnamon stick in vodka for a few days) is a really good way to get a precise amount of spice into your brew. Very controllable. You can add a drip at a time until its just right.

Most people just chuck a stick in the fermenter though.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## TimT

Just bottled our scrumpy today! It had been going along pretty well for a while but I noticed yesterday that the fermentation had pretty definitively stopped. We did have a couple of cold nights, which may have discouraged the yeast, but even so by that time there can't have been much sugar for the yeast left anyway.

Got 12 bottles; a small amount of sediment may have got into them (I don't really care about that). The gravity went right down to 1.000. The colour is a lovely cloudy gold; the smell, delicious - fresh apple aromas are still present. The taste is interesting too; there still seems to be some residual sugar leaving sweetness (in spite of the gravity reading), and there are also some bitter-sour tastes; I expect they'll mellow and become more gentle in a few months leaving us with a nice mature scrumpy.

I actually sang this song while bottling.

http://youtu.be/rQqwG_rQx7A

It's true!


----------



## Mutaneer

yep, all of mine have that hint of acidity at bottling.

But the next batch I'll rack off a full 5 litre glass demijohn and let it sit for a few months.
a, just to see how the flavour develops without teh effects of carbing
b, a still warm cider might be a good thing coming to the end of winter


----------



## TimT

Last year with the dregs we made a beaut mushroom stew. This year - disastro - there are no mushrooms! WHATEVER WILL WE DO.


----------



## TimT

Also I seem to remember last year the taste was much more intensely spirituous on bottling, and it was only in a few months that the full wine flavours seemed to come out.


----------



## TimT

Opened a bottle of scrumpy today. It seems to have matured and settled out, with a lovely apple fragrance - however it's not as rich or as complex or quite as wine-y as last year.I put that mostly down to the apples we had to work with (less, basically - it was a disappointing harvest; few apples to begin with; and we selected them quite late). Interesting though. I opened a bottle about a month or so ago, and the taste was quite neutral - a slightly uninspired wine. Nevertheless it's getting quite nice now - the acidity is now more noticeable again, but in a balanced way. It also has done that weird thing where it seems to become sweet again after a few months of being quite dry and not-sweet.

I'm heartened by the way this cider improves with age and who knows? By Christmas and New Year it could be a new wine again!


----------



## Airgead

That's one of the joys of cider.


----------



## Middo

Just finished reading all 14 pages over the last couple days at work and have made a number of purchases based on the feedback within. The only thing's I'm not sure on is whether my fermenter is too big, the amount of malic acid to use and whether to use a yeast nutrient with 71b. 

Thanks everyone who has contributed thus far, I've been all grain brewing for a little over a year now and have all the equipment and kegerator ready for a cider. My goal is to make something this weekend and have it kegged for xmas / new years.

I'm also an apiarist with a few top bar hives on my property giving me a great supply of fresh natural honey. If anyone sees anything wrong or would change please advise. My goal is pretty simple really being my first cider and hopefully my sister who has been pestering me for a cider for a while will like it. I'm not wanting something too dry and can back sweeten with more honey or lactose to taste when kegging.

I was going to hop it a little with cascade and citra but figure I'll leave the experimental stuff for later on. 

Here's the recipe and process I've put together using what I learnt from this thread and what I know from all grain. 

18 litres Aldi apple juice (preservative free)
1.5 litre of water boiled with 4 organic black tea bags
Adding 800g honey to tea mix
Mixing all contents above into a 60 litre fermenter (I don't have anything smaller but can get it if required).
Adding ??g Malic acid to juice in fermenter.
Shake the contents rigorously to oxiginate pre yeast addition
Adding 10 grams Lavlin 71B to fermenter
Temp controlled fridge at 18 degrees ramping up to 22 over the first week and leaving at 22 for 2.5 weeks.
Cold crash for .5 week.
Force carb and serve at 4 degrees / 70 kpa pressure (same as my pale and ipa get served at).... just in time for xmas day.

I'm not sure if all malic acid is the same but I got 100g from here: http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/malic-acid

Cheers,
Middo


----------



## Airgead

Looks fine. I'd add the acid after fermentation if needed. If you add too much its really hard to take it out again. the flavour will change as it ferments so something that has just the right amount of acid before fermentation will be way too much once the sweetness ferments away.

Cheers
dave


----------



## manticle

Yes to nutrient.


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

i have just read the entire 14 pages of this thread, and WOW! you guys have inspired me to have another go at cider (after 3 failed attempts).
Im going to have a go at a mulberry cider (as the brother in law has 5 trees).


----------



## Airgead

Come... Join us....


----------



## jsm

Great beginners guide. I found it helpful. Has anyone used double cans of brigalow apple cider and 29 liters of apple juice before??? My first cider came out sweet and dry when i used an expensive kit I bought from the local brew shop. Just wondering if it is useful in aiding in sweetening?


----------



## Airgead

The cheap kits are often artificially sweetened so you, it will probably add sweetness. Mind you they are also designed to be added to water so using two kits plus apple juice is likely to give you something you could run your car off rather than something you would like to drink...

Sweet ciders are hard to do without a bunch of extra work. There is a thread on it here - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83751-sweet-cider-how-to-keep-things-sweet/

Easiest way it to add some apple juice to the glass when serving.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## CCC

This is my first post so excuse me if it seems a silly question. I made my first cider 2 weeks ago today - 18 litres of Woolworths Apple juice and 2.4 litres of Apple and pear. Pitched it at 21 and have kept it there. Used a cider (liquid) yeast in black packet (sorry used to beer yeasts so can't remember the name) 
It was 1.050 and is now 1.008. In the tube though it still had quiet a lot of bubbles and tasted nice but was a bit carbonated. Should I keep it going or would it be ok to bottle? And do I use the same carbonation rates as I would for beer?


----------



## LiquidGold

Was that reading stable over several days? Most ciders usually get to 1.000 or sometimes even lower although the pear juice would have some unfermentables and could be attributed to the higher reading. Also make sure you knock all the bubbles off the hydrometer as they can give a false reading.


----------



## manticle

Leave it mate. Cider ferments right out.


----------



## CCC

Thanks for the answers. It was a reading for one day only so I'll keep checking ( are the rules the same as for beer- same reading for two days in a row is done?). It was reasonably fizzy to drink so will it lose that when it's ready and then carbonate normally?


----------



## Sambrew

Just picked, juiced and am currently fermenting about 50 l of cider, smells terrific and tastes like it will be a good drop. O.G. Approximately 1060, fermented with champagne yeast currently passing the 1040 range. Should be a ball tearer..


----------



## Ciderman

I was hell bent on making quality cider about 6 years ago. In the end I just couldn't get ahold of the heirloom varieties required to make perfectly balanced cider. Given that store bought Apple juice is made from the same boring varieties found in shops I don't know why I didn't think of using store bought juice before. Their juicing methods will likely be better than mine. 

Now that I keg it certainly makes it easier as you can't back sweeten bottles. 18 Litres of Golden Circle Apple juice were purchased at $2.50 per 3L bottle. 15 Litres fermented with Craftbrewer cider yeast. OG was a surprisingly low 1042 and FG was 1000. Back sweetened with 3L. 

Tastes pretty close to Napoleone Cider which is a favourite of the missus.


----------



## flave_7

Ciderman said:


> Back sweetened with 3L.


Looking at doing a 20L batch with store juice. But the wife doesn't like dry ciders but hates Rekorderlig yet insists on me doing a cider, helpful I know <_< !

What did you back sweeten with?


----------



## Ciderman

Just more apple juice. I was happy with the 15:3 ratio. I never remeasured the gravity after adding more juice but I'd expect what I made was still a medium dry cider. Just ferment 14 litres and see how much fermented juice you need to get the taste right.


----------



## flave_7

Cheers will give it a go see what happens.


----------



## TheBlackAdder

Ciderman said:


> Just more apple juice. I was happy with the 15:3 ratio. I never remeasured the gravity after adding more juice but I'd expect what I made was still a medium dry cider. Just ferment 14 litres and see how much fermented juice you need to get the taste right.


Im just curious why you are using a 15:3 ratio instead of a 5:1 ratio?


----------



## NikZak

This is an awesome thread and has inspired me to make my first cider...

Tonight I'm going to Aldi to buy a jug of Apple juice and some baker's yeast for my first go... I was watching a video on the YouTube and the guy put sugar in his also, is it worth doing this or will it make no real difference?


----------



## Airgead

It will make it stronger and taste worse

BTW - use a decent brewing yeast. Leave the baking yeast for baking....

Unless you developed a taste for prison hooch while inside.


----------



## flave_7

So I've put the cider on to ferment.

10L Apple (golden circle in the end)
8L Apple, pear and raspberry (as that's all they had. No other brand had just Apple and pear!)
1L of strong tea
Juice 2 lemons
400g honey
Safale US-05

OG 1050 currently sitting at 20-22°C
Bubbling away and smells quite nice!

Interested to see how it turns out. Going to leave it in a keg until summer and then force carb it. Bit excited though as a mate did a cider a while back and it smelled really sulphury but tasted fine. Mine isn't doing that ATM and I hope it doesn't!


----------



## Brew Forky

A mate who knew I brewed told me he wanted to make cider and asked for some advice. I found this thread and gave him the link, read the whole thread the night after, found juice on a promotion special the day after and now have 18L of cider fermenting away in my spare fermenter.

How's them apples?

6 x 2.4L Berri Apple and Pear Juice
1 x 3L Mildura Apple juice

Dissolved in 750ml:
1 1/2 Lemons
3 Tea bags
120g Honey
100g Brown Sugar
3 year old Coopers kit yeast for nutrients

EC1118 yeast

All out of the blue and quite excitement.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

NikZak said:


> This is an awesome thread and has inspired me to make my first cider...
> 
> Tonight I'm going to Aldi to buy a jug of Apple juice and some baker's yeast for my first go... I was watching a video on the YouTube and the guy put sugar in his also, is it worth doing this or will it make no real difference?


Ditch the sugar and bakers yeast

Add malt and use a decent yeast


----------



## NikZak

I've got some EC-1118 now which will be used for my next batch of cider, I have to say though, the flavor using just baker's yeast was pretty good so hopefully the EC will be even better


----------



## Airgead

EC is pretty good. Nice and clean but can be a bit tart with high acid apples. I tend to use 71B as my go to yeast for meads and ciders as it tends to preserve some fruit character (more than EC1118 anyway) and will partially break down malic acid so it tends to smooth out the sharpness in the juice.

The EC1118 is a good place to start though. Used it for years before experimenting with other yeasts.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## indica86

Recent cider was made from bargain bin apples and pears from woolies.
Got 15 litres of juice, added juice of a lemon and SN9 yeast.
Several months down the track it is a cracker. Lovely aroma, crisp clean and dry taste.
OG was 1058 so rather strong too.


----------



## flave_7

So after 8 days of fermenting bubbling had slowed right down and I thought I'd taste it. Initially quite sharp but quickly dissipated and had a decent level of sweetness that wasn't sickly but not too dry. FG was 1008 So I crashed chilled it. And I'll test tomorrow to see where it's at.


----------



## decr

Well after reading through this thread yesterday (like many else in the past), I was compelled to give it a go and holy moly this thing took off like a rocket compared to beer. Hydrated EC1118 seems to love the stuff. Just put down a 4l batch and it was happily bubbling away after a while. It's my first cider so really excited about it, hope it works out and it will be interesting to finally taste this "dry" cider everyone is going on about. Obviously it's not the "dry" swill you get from the local...


----------



## Mutaneer

Make sure you give it some nutrients with EC1118, either a handful of sultanas or some dedicated nutrient (I use GoFerm)
What juice are you using?


----------



## jkeysers

Just found this thread, it’s really interesting! I’ve only ever brewed one cider, from a kit, and it’s not bad. That artificial sweetener definitely has a taste though.

So after reading a big chunk of this thread, I have a few questions.
1. I understand that people put the tea in for tannins. What is the significance of pear (a lot of people using apple AND pear juice)? Brown Sugar? Honey?
2. I notice some people using lemons. Just the juice or the zest as well? I’ve had great success with zest of lemons and limes in beers, wondering how it would work here.
3. Thinking about sweetening. My wife likes Rekorderligs. They’re too sweet for me, but I would like to end up with something maybe just a little less sweet than Rek. I use kegs, and I CC before I keg to reduce sediment (I assume it’s the same for a cider?). Given that he cider would be cold when kegged (and the yeast inactive) could I pour some juice in the kegs with the brew to sweeten things up. How about other sweeteners to put in at keg time? Sugar water. Sprite/Solo or something? Just spitballing here 
4. How about juices with other fruits? Or even cloudy apple juice (which I love).


----------



## TimT

Pear juice is similar to apple juice; a pure pear juice cider is called a perry. If you mill the pears or apples yourself and then crush the juice out yourself, you will probably get some tannins from the flesh (though depends on the variety - the most common pear and apple varieties are selected for sweetness rather than the tart, dry tannin taste). Otherwise you should consider somehow adding tannins into the process (oaking is another way that could have pleasing results - ie, ageing on oak chips or in an oak barrel). 

Brown sugar is a fairly simple sugar and will almost entirely ferment out, making your cider high and dry (high alcohol, little body). Too much sugar and the cider will lose its cidery qualities and be less pleasant to drink.

Honey is a bit more complex but is basically fermentable sugar too; it will also tend to leave your cider high and dry. Add lots of honey and you won't have the base for a cider: you'll have cyser - a type of mead made out of apple and honey. I recommend this, but it's different to cider and will need some ageing, possibly a good deal of ageing.


----------



## TimT

I've been pleased with many of my ciders this year. I got a pick of a fairly wide variety of apples and switched from champagne yeasts (which I used in previous years) to White Labs cider yeast, or, in one case, a wild cider. I also did two cysers - one on a red wine yeast, the other on a wild yeast I harvested myself mid-last year. 

The results have tended to tartness but you can definitely taste the apple and there also seem to be some remaining sugars. 

I think the lesson from this is pick a variety of apples and make sure they're fresh. Being selective about the yeast may help too.


----------



## Airgead

Pear juice also contains an unfermentable sugar called sorbitol. So it will add some residual sweetness. How much depends on a lot of factors like pear variety, ripeness, etc.


----------



## TimT

i-like-chicken, question 3 is answered at the start of this thread with Airgead's initial post. 

As to question 2 and question 4, I quite like lemon zest, not sure if it would go in a cider - as it tends to add a lemony bitterness to it and in a fermented cider you will already have a lot of tartness. I guess it could go well in a spiced cider. Other fruit of course can be used; if they've got sugar then generally they can be fermented. If you add a lot of fruit though you won't have a cider. You'll have a fruit wine. Possibly not one with much sugar either; as a lot of fruit wines seem to be made with fruit *and* sugar.


----------



## wareemba

Airgead said:


> I tend to use 71B as my go to yeast for meads and ciders
> Cheers
> Dave


where do (can?) you get this locally?


----------



## Airgead

wareemba said:


> where do (can?) you get this locally?


It can be a little tricky to find. I used to buy mine from I brew (ibrew.com.au). They have it in 10g foil packets or 100g blocks. I tend to buy mine in kilo packs at winemaker's suppliers these days. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## wareemba

ah OK, thanks for the info


----------



## balconybrewer

.


----------



## GregMeady

Put down a batch of cider a few days ago from the Somerset Gold recipe > http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/950-somerset-gold/ < in the recipe section into a 5lt demi, while I wait for my meads haha. Then put a further 15lt in one of those blueish water cooler bottles just using an ale yeast ( i guess) or the brigalow that was available in the local woolies. After 5 minutes, I was bored again (haha) so put down a 5lt batch of the same somerset gold recipe which called for 2.4lt apple & 2.4lt apple and pear, switched the apple for apple & black currant, which smells bloody awesome. 
All this waiting is killing me :icon_drool2:


----------



## decr

GregMeady, haha yep waiting is the killer. Then bottle and wait some more unless you can convince yourself that the cider is supposed to be cloudy like that!


----------



## waggastew

Brewing my first cider as a special order for a mate. Bloody easier than brewing although it's kinda cheating to use stir bought juice I guess!

12L Coles apple juice
1L Pear juice
1L Apricot juice
3 Granny Smiths, chopped
3 Fuji, chopped
Yeast nutrient
Rehydrated Notto

Ferment at 20degC


----------



## decr

Yum. I was surprised with the end result from Coles juice, didn't expect much but it's ok. Could have more flavour but it comes out better than I thought initially. That reminds me, need to add 10 bottles to my next order, nothing like having groceries delivered to the kitchen bench.


----------



## 2blokes

Great thread, thanks for all the effort.

I have made a couple of ciders from fresh pressed apples, mostly table 'sweet' apples and a year or two back I had a go at a couple of perry's, one from pears I crushed the other from farm pressed juice.

Ican't remember what yeast I used for the Perry's but I think it was EC1118. For Cider, first time I used an English Cider Yeast the 2nd 71B.

All four times came out a bit tart, I am not sure if I can describe it correctly but acidic or sharp is the best I can come up with. None were horrible but none as smooth as I would like.

I used the 71B as I read it can ferment some of the malic acid which I believe these types of apples contain as their primary acid??

While the 71B batch is abit young but it seems to taste just the same.

Questions:
What exactly are you trying to add with the tannins? I realise it is to balance sweetness but does it make it taste more acidic or is it that puckering dryness you get with tea? I dont drink alot of tea so am abit in the dark here.

I understand you can add a malolatic culture to the cider to take care of the malic acid, is this the same as what 71B does? I ask as I have read that that culture seems sensitive to things like temperature pH etc and can take a while to complete. My 71B batch is only a month old, it is clearing in the garage where it is nice and cool - below 17c. I am wondering how much time I need to give the 71B to act on the malic acid and should I be concerned about maintaining a higher temp?

Appreciate any help.


----------



## kerrplease

so these ciders are non alcoholic .does anyone recommend how to gather the ingredients or a place to buy the yeast from online straight to the door postage.


----------



## kerrplease

is this non alcoholic do i just look up the recipes at the top of the site page and buy recipe to order it online


----------



## kerrplease

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/950-somerset-gold/


----------



## kerrplease

just the coopers style yeast


----------



## kerrplease

do i times the yest as well by five if making more than one lot or if its two lots add two yest then.


----------



## kerrplease

does this cider have to be bottled with the carbonation drops in each one again


----------



## BradG

kerrplease said:


> Cider is alcoholic. You can press some apples and make juice, but don't recommend fermenting it if you are looking to avoid alcohol.
> 
> Maybe try the ginger beer recipes?


----------



## laxation

I can get a lot of apples from the in laws' trees - so thought about making a cider. Do I need to do anything to the juice (will be using a mate's juicer, not a press) before fermenting?

Boil it or anything to clean it up?


----------



## Airgead

Nope. I just let it settle in the fridge overnight and rack off the pulp. Even that is optional though. 

Just juice and pitch is all you need to do.


----------



## laxation

Cheers! I am surprised at how easy it sounds...


----------



## nosco

A bit of yeast nutrient helps too


----------



## Airgead

Yes. It does indeed. 

Cider differs from beer in that the process is much simpler. The difficulty in cider is getting good apples and blending them into something great.


----------



## laxation

nosco said:


> A bit of yeast nutrient helps too


How much would you use? I have a packet from a lemonade i have just brewed


----------



## Airgead

Whatever it says on the packet. Diferent nutrients have diferent dosing rates.


----------



## beerbrewer76543

I'm having a crack at this Cider gig with a batch of 50/50 apple / pear juice from Coles. A couple of questions for the pros:

1. Has anyone had good results with oak chips? If so, how much and how long do you soak them for?

2. Is it best to transfer to a secondary or is bottle ageing OK?

3. Has anyone tried dry hopping with good results? 

Cheers!


----------



## manticle

Bottle ageing is fine.
Oak chips are fine if you like oaked cider.
I never met a hopped cider I enjoyed but if they are your thing then dry hopping is also fine.


----------



## GregMeady

If you are bottle carbonating cider, do you use the same amount of sugar/dex as you would a beer? i.e. 1tsp in 375ml / 2tsp in 750ml?
Also is it ok to bottle in clear glass (corona 355ml bottles) or do they have to be dark?
Thanks in advance & sorry for the newbie question 
I have done cider before when i first starting brewing but always resorted to drinking them flat. It's nice if they are a bit sparkly lol


----------



## manticle

Same priming sugar amount is fine - just make sure the batch has finished fermenting properly. Juice will get to 1.000 and even lower.

Clear bottles can work here because there are no hops (unless doing graff/hopped cider type) but uv is a powerful force that affects more than hops so I'd take that option only in a pinch.


----------



## vincent

hi probably a stupid question but this apple juice should work?
https://www.spreytonfresh.com.au/index.php/juices/ 
second stupid question if i make my cider in a glass demijohn is there a chance it will blow up not just blow the bung out? 
and third stupid question i watched this video  and he uses something to stop the fermentation process is there any down side to the stuff he uses? (sorry about not using the right word and just saying stuff)


----------



## manticle

Spreyton is something I've used in the past successfully (as part of a mix). Make sure it's preservative free.

Does your fermentation vessel bung have a hole or airlock? Gas just needs somewhere to go and to blow up, your vessel needs to be totally sealed.

I haven't watched the video but most of the likely products may slow fermentation or yeast reproduction - they are not something to use in place of safe bottling practices though. High levels can have a flavour impact but if used properly should be OK. If it's sulphite related (eg sodium or potassium metabisulphite - some people don't react well, the powders themselves can be bad for asthmatics when using/mixing.


----------



## vincent

thanks heaps bungs have holes so should be safe yeah? probably just look into safe bottling practice  thanks again


----------



## vincent

one more noob question after ive brewed said cider for say 2 weeks? i then turn off heat and test with a hydrometer every few days till i get the same reading every day? or? really sorry just a bit confused


----------



## manticle

How much heat are you applying? I prefer to ferment cider reasonably cool - how cool may depend on the yeast. Between 10 and 14 is my preference

Once it's close to 1.002, I'd test every few days until it stabilises. That's for straight apple which can get below 1.000. Add malt or pear juice or whatever and it will finish a bit higher.


----------



## vincent

i live in tasmania so im figuring i'll have to apply heat just to get it to 10 maybe 15 tops still unsure on best method for this was thinking of using this (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Heating-...hash=item27bc802572:m:mQ492WgLWFgeNh2Mvnzf8QA) and this (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-...OZ-plug-/201828381242?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276) but was also unsure if it would make it to hot?

ok cool when should i do my first test? and will it slow down the fermentation taking the lid off to test? or should i use the tap on the bottom to test? this is what ive decided to make my cider in http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/American...605087?hash=item25b262bc1f:g:sJEAAOSwLnBX26pV


----------



## vincent

oh yeah and thanks againt manticle


----------



## manticle

Tap at the bottom. Test after a couple of weeks - no harm done.

I'm in tas too. Today is a beautiful 16 deg day in hobart (well hobart greater at least). Winter is a good time to do cider. Got a mate down at Nubeena who'll be pressing 150 kg of various apples this weekend.


----------



## vincent

so i shouldn't need to use the heat pad setup? what would you suggest? just a heater on low in the same room on the colder days or? far out how much juice will that make? sounds like heaps lol


----------



## manticle

Not suggesting you don't use it. Just don't try and get the juice to 22 or something silly and try and keep the temp constant. A fridge with controller is a good thing to have so you can set and forget but ambient brewing can work fine too.

My main objection to heat pads is that they heat the bottom of the fermenter where all the yeast gathers and cooked yeast isn't great.

Anyway - have a crack, taste the results and adjust next time if you think it needs it. You'll make a tasty brew with spreyton and patience, don't overthink it.


----------



## vincent

cheers again manticle you've saved me a lot of wasted money i have the perfect room already will start brewing asap


----------



## manticle

vincent said:


> far out how much juice will that make? sounds like heaps lol



With fresh apples, the juice yield will vary depending on apple variety, vintage/season, methods and equipment but as a rough guide, bank on about 1/2 juice volume by weight (so 75 L per 150 kg).


----------



## vincent

struth! hes getting tanked lol


----------



## manticle

It's not all for his own consumption. He won't tap till close to summer, he stores and gives a lot away and is investigating going commercial.


----------



## vincent

sorry i was only joking lol


----------



## Hangover68

who does a good cider kit ?


----------



## homebrewnewb

oh my mangrove jacks, i have a pear i need to put down!


----------



## bcp

*Pear cider*
After reading all 17 pages here, not so much info on pear ciders, which is what I want to try in a few small batches - starting with store-bought juices. I'm not sure how much pure pear changes anything to the previous discussion here. 

I'm after a relatively dry finish, bottle conditioning and maybe back-sweeten a little if it's too dry.
4 litres of pear juice (Bickfords Cloudy or Goulburn Valley)
Maybe some tea - 1 teabag?
Safcider yeast

A few questions:
1. Sorbitol - provides residual sweetness. Since I'll be using only pear juice, how much residual sweetness will that have? Will I get sorbitol from store-bought juices or is it possible they have a process that might reduce/eliminate it (since I don't really know what it is)?
2. Back-sweetening - Thinking of using Giffard's Pear (Poire) Syrup in the glass. Never tried it but since it's made from pears, has a pear aroma, etc. Anyone familiar with it? 
3. Yeast nutrient - with smaller batches is yeast nutrient still worth doing? 
4. Tea - I'm no expert in the role of tannins in pear cider or what is already present in the juices. Still worth doing?


----------



## desmogod

Great thread guys, thank you. 
Going to be brewing a few all grains after many years of not brewing anything (previous was BIAB type brews) for our after drinks on our wedding day. 
The bride to be wants me to brew a cider and after reading that it really needs conditioning for a while and the event only being 10 weeks away, I’ll be getting a cider on tomorrow night. 
I’ve read the entire thread but have a few questions. 
Planning on:
15 litres Aldi apple juice (preservative free)
4 litres of pear juice 
1 litre of water boiled with a few tea bags and adding roughly 500g of her grandfather’s honey to the tea mix. 
US-05
Malic acid to taste at the end of fermentation. 
My only real concern is that it’s still relatively cold here at night (7-9C) and I’m worried the yeast won’t do it’s job. 
Or should I just pitch it and hope for the best?


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## theSeekerr

Bodge up a fermentation chamber - a cardboard box insulated with whatever comes to hand is better than nothing, but you could get fancy with some foam insulation board from the big green shed. Keep it inside the house if you can get away with it.

A 20L batch in an enclosed space does a pretty good job of keeping itself warm once it gets going.


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## Wolfman1

desmogod said:


> Great thread guys, thank you.
> Going to be brewing a few all grains after many years of not brewing anything (previous was BIAB type brews) for our after drinks on our wedding day.
> The bride to be wants me to brew a cider and after reading that it really needs conditioning for a while and the event only being 10 weeks away, I’ll be getting a cider on tomorrow night.
> I’ve read the entire thread but have a few questions.
> Planning on:
> 15 litres Aldi apple juice (preservative free)
> 4 litres of pear juice
> 1 litre of water boiled with a few tea bags and adding roughly 500g of her grandfather’s honey to the tea mix.
> US-05
> Malic acid to taste at the end of fermentation.
> My only real concern is that it’s still relatively cold here at night (7-9C) and I’m worried the yeast won’t do it’s job.
> Or should I just pitch it and hope for the best?


Yes, go for it. Build a box and/or blankets or old jackets etc will help. 
Are you doing kegs or bottles? If kegs then Consider getting a really nice classy apple juice as a back sweetener rather than the malic acid. I’ve just done that for a mates birthday and 500ml of juice from the farmers market gave it a big lift. Chuck it in a few days before 
Congrats on the big day


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## desmogod

Wolfman1 said:


> Yes, go for it. Build a box and/or blankets or old jackets etc will help.
> Are you doing kegs or bottles? If kegs then Consider getting a really nice classy apple juice as a back sweetener rather than the malic acid. I’ve just done that for a mates birthday and 500ml of juice from the farmers market gave it a big lift. Chuck it in a few days before
> Congrats on the big day



Going into a corny so I’ll take your advice on back sweetening


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## Dubzie

My simple strong/sweet cider:

18L Coles Apple juice
2kg Brown Sugar

2L starter of S-04 (cold crashed and decanted)

Fermented at 20*c
OG 1.085 
FG 1.020 (into kegs) (i use a Tilt to monitor the gravity)
ABV 8.5%

Kegging and storing at beer fridge temps slows/stops the fermentation, you can let it ferment a bit more if its too sweet for you.
This is still quite sweet, but doesn't taste like its 8%, winner with the wife!


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## altone

Dubzie said:


> My simple strong/sweet cider:
> 
> 18L Coles Apple juice
> 2kg Brown Sugar
> 
> 2L starter of S-04 (cold crashed and decanted)
> 
> Fermented at 20*c
> OG 1.085
> FG 1.020 (into kegs) (i use a Tilt to monitor the gravity)
> ABV 8.5%
> 
> Kegging and storing at beer fridge temps slows/stops the fermentation, you can let it ferment a bit more if its too sweet for you.
> This is still quite sweet, but doesn't taste like its 8%, winner with the wife!



Is that the cheap pasteurized stuff at $2 for 2l ? If so, I might give it a go. I'd be aiming for the dryer end of the spectrum.


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## Dubzie

altone said:


> Is that the cheap pasteurized stuff at $2 for 2l ? If so, I might give it a go. I'd be aiming for the dryer end of the spectrum.


Yea mate, total cost was like $26? if you included the cost of the DME for the starter, it's REAL easy drinking


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## Thomas Wood

Dubzie said:


> 18L Coles Apple juice
> 2kg Brown Sugar


So basically just chuck that all into a fermenter, sprinkle some S04 and she's sweet?


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## Dubzie

Thomas Wood said:


> So basically just chuck that all into a fermenter, sprinkle some S04 and she's sweet?


If you're going to use dry yeast, i'd use 2 packets. (I've got a small bank of saved S-04 that i use to make yeast starters with)


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## EziTasting

A friend that makes wine (as if recently) has asked how I stop the cider from Oxydising?

I don’t recall reading about oxidizing effects... I have seen someone mention camden tablets (not that I can find it now) ... are they necessary?

Cheers
EZ


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## gap

EziTasting said:


> A friend that makes wine (as if recently) has asked how I stop the cider from Oxydising?
> 
> I don’t recall reading about oxidizing effects... I have seen someone mention camden tablets (not that I can find it now) ... are they necessary?
> 
> Cheers
> EZ


You should have very little headspace in your fermenter to help minimise oxidation.
Cider does not throw a large krausen.
Besides apple juice starts oxidising as soon as you crush the apples.


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## EziTasting

gap said:


> You should have very little headspace in your fermenter to help minimise oxidation.
> Cider does not throw a large krausen.
> Besides apple juice starts oxidising as soon as you crush the apples.



Thank you @gap.
I take it the same applies when bottling!?!


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## gap

EziTasting said:


> Thank you @gap.
> I take it the same applies when bottling!?!


Same headspace as bottling beer is OK


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## Luchadore Brewer

I've posted this in a few other forums since I've joined here and have been getting good advice.
Interested to know your thoughts on my attempt, and where I can improve to make an otherwise "Meh" cider sweeter a great cider.
I think I lost the flavours somewhere in fermentation.

In a 5L glass bottle:
4x 1L cartons of Dewlands Apple Juice
1x 480ml Herbapol Blackcurrant Syrup
1Cup sugar
1tsp Yeast Nutrient
1tsp Pectinase
1tsp Mangrove Jack Cider Yeast activated in apple juice


It was suggested that next time don't add the sugar, as the syrup and the apple juice had enough sugar on it's own. Primary fermentation finished in a week. 
I don't drink a whole lot (and I used to work in a winery, funny that), so I don't know what to look for in the flavour of the final product, only what I think it should taste like.
In my next attempt I will ditch the extra sugar and add more syrup.


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## Rob Oxenbridge

Hi folks,

I'm completely new to brewing cider. I spent some weeks reading forums and articles before starting then thought I'd start simple with a Mangrove Jack's kit. Day 5 in the fermenter and I've just had a taste test. It's going very nicely but certainly needs some more time yet before bottling.

But I'm already thinking about my next batch and I'd like to use juice rather than a concentrate pouch. I have a recipe in mind based on everything I've read and what I would like.

My question is this. The kit includes the M02 yeast (which produces a nice drop by all accounts). Will it work to bottle off the current batch, leaving enough in the bottom as a starter, then add 20L of juice onto it? I'm thinking yes, but I've seen conflicting opinions. One person says add the fresh juice no worries. Others say skim off some yeast and wash it. Others say you only need a small amount from the original batch. One thread on reddit included a couple of people who claimed to work for commercial breweries and that they just re-use the raw liquid up to 10 times.

Can anyone add their experience based thoughts on which way to go? Seems a waste to tip it out and start with a new dry packet.

Thanks!


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## drewbert

Hi everyone. Have been reading this htread in depth and pulled the trigger for my first cider (second brew ever too)

Into a typical Cooper's FV went:
21 litres of Golden Circle Applie Juice 
2 litres of Golden Circle Pear/Apple/Raspberry Juice (60% pear, 38% apple, 2% raspberry)
1 kilogram CSR Brown Sugar
5g (1 packet) Brigalow Brewing Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae)

pitched at 20 degrees. 
Planning for a 3-4 week fermentation, then into bottles with those Coopers sugar tablets.

OG was 1059 which im hoping would go to 1020 or lower. 
Im not sure how it would go in the end, as the Pear juice + the fact the yeast is an ale yeast so would (should?) not go too the same dryness and FG of a champagne yeast.

Is there anything that i would be wise to be on the look out for while it does its thing?
Thank you in advance for the shared advice in the past 18 pages, this is going to be fun!


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## McDuck

After reading a bit here, regular brewing of cider will leave it dry, unless you use sweeteners that are unfermentable.
So what if once you get to bottling stage, adding 50ml? Of the same juice used to the bottle then the 2 carbonate drops in the 740ml per bottles? Will the secondary fermentation eat it up? Will it go boom?
Or just try someone’s else recipe/keep researching.
Cheers


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## captnhaddock

McDuck said:


> So what if once you get to bottling stage, adding 50ml?
> Of the same juice used to the bottle then the 2 carbonate drops in the 740ml per bottles? Will the secondary fermentation eat it up? Will it go boom?
> Or just try someone’s else recipe/keep researching.
> Cheers



1) No, do not add raw cider/juice & carb drops pre-bottling, you will kick off fermentation again and at best over-carb, at worse create a bottle bomb. Also, the yeast will take any raw cider/juice back dry, thusly negating the purpose of the addition.
2) As you've mentioned you'll want to add unfermentable sugars to achieve both mouth-feel and sweetness. I would recomend adding the unfermentable sugars at the beginning of the process rather than at the end. 
3) don't over think it, just have a go at it, see if you like it, and make small & incremental changes to the next batches.


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## Elmar

captnhaddock said:


> 1) No, do not add raw cider/juice & carb drops pre-bottling, you will kick off fermentation again and at best over-carb, at worse create a bottle bomb. Also, the yeast will take any raw cider/juice back dry, thusly negating the purpose of the addition.
> 2) As you've mentioned you'll want to add unfermentable sugars to achieve both mouth-feel and sweetness. I would recomend adding the unfermentable sugars at the beginning of the process rather than at the end.
> 3) don't over think it, just have a go at it, see if you like it, and make small & incremental changes to the next batches.


Try this recipe, works well.
I didn't worry about pectinase.

homebrewingaustralia.net/recipe-crisp-apple-cider/


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## Johngee

I've just joined up and have been doing some research this morning re: sweetness.
An American guy put extra suger in 2nd fermentation for a short period and then placed into hot water to kill the yeast thereby retaining the sweetness.
Has anyone tried this?

Also, I see that lots mention raw/brown sugar - my research from today said to only use white sugar?

Looking for thoughts/opinions - thnx


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## Hangover68

You can use lactose to add sweetness, most HB shops will sell it.


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## Grmblz

Johngee said:


> I've just joined up and have been doing some research this morning re: sweetness.
> An American guy put extra suger in 2nd fermentation for a short period and then placed into hot water to kill the yeast thereby retaining the sweetness.
> Has anyone tried this?
> 
> Also, I see that lots mention raw/brown sugar - my research from today said to only use white sugar?
> 
> Looking for thoughts/opinions - thnx


See #19 page one, until you have experienced bottle bombs you have no idea just how dangerous they are.


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## golfandbrew

Johngee said:


> I've just joined up and have been doing some research this morning re: sweetness.
> An American guy put extra suger in 2nd fermentation for a short period and then placed into hot water to kill the yeast thereby retaining the sweetness.
> Has anyone tried this?
> 
> If you want more sweetness why not just add some sugar after you have poured your cider into a glass. Works for your coffee, no reason it shouldn't work for your cider.
> 
> Also, I see that lots mention raw/brown sugar - my research from today said to only use white sugar?
> 
> Looking for thoughts/opinions - thnx


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## golfandbrew

If you want more sweetness why not just add some sugar after you have poured your cider into a glass. Works for your coffee, no reason it shouldn't work for your cider.


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## postmaster

Airgead said:


> You could pour it into a glass like civilised folk...
> 
> Or just leave a little headspace in the bottle for a shot of cordial.
> 
> Are you sure about wine yeast and maltodextrin? Wine yeast has difficulties with any complex sugar. One of the key differentiators is that ale yeasts will ferment maltose and wine yeasts won't.
> 
> Lactose is milk sugar so yes, not vegan. Is yeast vegan?
> 
> Your options are pretty limited. Something like stevia will work but I find it tastes nasty. If you can keep the bottles cold you can add whatever sweetner you like and just keep them cold enough to prevent fermentation. Otherwise you need to get into some extra processing.
> 
> Sterile filtering before fermentation finishes will leave a sweet cider but carbonation will be an issue. You would need to force carbonate which may not be an option if you are bottling.
> 
> Some people bottle sweet, carbonate then pasturise the bottles to stop fermentation. I think they are insane and asking for glass explosions.
> 
> There are some traditional methods like Keeveing which reduce the nutrients in the juice and essentially stall fermentation early but for those you really need to be pressing your own apples.
> 
> Malolactic fermentation will smooth out a dry cider by converting malic acid into lactic acid which reduces the perceived acidity and makes it less sharp. That could be an option.
> 
> Or just learn to like it dry.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Dave, I have pasturised in the Keg by heating to 65 deg and leave for 10 mins. I don.t think from memory it was very successful. We do scrumpy cider with the neighbour each year and he bottles with the 750ml pet bottle and has pasturised without much success. I use Mangrove jacks yeast. I am wondering if I used say Safale S40 which does not attenuate fully or am I asking for off flavours with that. He suggested after fermentation to put the juice into a boiler and pasturise to 65 deg, but I am concerned about infection by doing that.
Any thoughts on those two. S40 and heating the actual cider. Cheers. p.s. I Usually cold crash it (4 deg c) at 1.015 for sweetness, but the yeast still keeps working.


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## Grmblz

Scrumpy isn't sweet, however if you want residual sweetness in your beverage:









There's Potassium Sorbate in My Food — Is That Safe? | Livestrong.com


Potassium sorbate is a common food preservative that helps extend a food's shelf life. Here's what to know about its safety and which foods contain it.




www.livestrong.com




"Potassium sorbate is also used to prevent yeast from continuing to ferment in the wine-making process, according to Virginia Tech's Food Science & Technology department."

This is just a pointer, do your due diligence/homework, exploding bottles have and will inflict serious injury.

I make verjuice (bugger Maggie Beer and her $20 for 750ml of what is in effect waste product) and scrumpy, there's no need to kill everything, just prevent it from multiplying.


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## Eddy Monsoon

Can anyone recommend a wine press for apples ?

I' m gonna kill the juicer if I stick 10 kilos through again.


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## Grmblz

There's an article in BYO where some guy uses a waste disposal unit to pulverise the apples, after that your juicer might be able to cope?


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## clarkejw

I seem to remember reading somewhere about adding a litre of fresh apple juice to the brew immediately before kegging it. Don't know about bottling, and even that info could be wrong.


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## ballantynedewolf

Great 19 page thread. Admirable restraint and good advice from Airgead/Dave.
If you love Breton cider like I do, you might try keeving, but otherwise sweetening in the glass is surely the safest and easiest if you can't take it dry.
My question concerns conditioning in timber. Are timber barrels airtight enough? Would glass carboy and timber chips be better?


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## BullseyeEBF

For those using the Lavlin 71B, are you adding yeast nutrients too? Or not required with that particular strain?


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