# Water Chemistry Gurus



## Nick JD (13/6/12)

Just wondering if this is enough info to go on to do water adjustments...

http://www.allconnex.com.au/SiteCollection..._GC_2010-11.pdf

http://www.allconnex.com.au/myhome/waterqu...es/default.aspx

Sounds pretty good for euro lagers as is (pretty soft) - what should I be adding for UK beers (irish red for example)? Would my ales benefit from some salts? My efficiency?

Do I need a more indepth analysis?

:icon_cheers:


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## BlueSky (13/6/12)

That water report doesn't seem to list the amount of Chloride nor Sulphate/Sulfate as far as I can see. From what I've been reading you'll need that data to be able to calculate your salt additions for a specific 'style' of water.



> ...what should I be adding for UK beers (irish red for example)?



Hmm, I would have thought a true Irish Red Ale would come from Eire (ROI) and probably/possibly Dublin, so the water profile for Guinness would be appropriate. Palmer mentions that here... 'Malts & Minerals'

Also, just to confuse the issue further , have a look at Graham Wheeler's on-line 'Liquor Treatment Calculator' >>HERE<<


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## manticle (13/6/12)

Water profile for guiness today (soft and probably treated) or carbonate hard chalky crap that Palmer and BJCP talk about?

I wouldn't be using that chalk water for any of my beers and I think it's a bad* way to approach the subject (historical profiles etc) except as an introduction to what effects water has had on the evolution of brewing styles.

Blue sky is right though Nick - you need a chloride and sulphate level so see if you can get that from the company.

Ions you are mainly interested in are:

chloride
sulphate
Calcium
Carbonates (temporary hardness)
Magnesium
Zinc
Sodium

Also permanent hardness but only if the water is really hard.

Ions you are actually interested in adding are:
Calcium
Chloride
Sulphate
Zinc


Magnesium has a similar effect to calcium but less so and too much is very bad. Malt naturally contains magnesium, adequate levels as far as I understand. Some say carbonates for very dark beers. I avoid them but try them with and without and see for yourself. If your water has lots of carbonates or permanent hardness, you may need to work on dropping them out by RO filter etc. Temporary can be boiled out and precipitated but that's a bit of ******* around. A touch of sodium can work - too much is unpleasant and way too much can hurt/kill yeast.

Calcium for yeast health and enzyme activity.
Chloride for malt profile.
Sulphate for hop profile and bitterness.
Zinc for yeast health (usually a dose of wyeast yeast nutrient is probably enough)

I keep it simple and add calcium sulphate and calcium chloride - usually in equal amounts but ocassionally play if I really want to favour malt over hops or the other way. Some beers only chloride. I also add a teeny bit of phosphoric acid to some paler beers. Zinc I add in yeast nutrient form but you can buy zinc chloride and zinc sulphate I believe.
The other ions I am mainly interested in making sure the levels are low enough. Too much of anything is often worse than not enough.

For Irish red, I would add only calcium chloride to push a nice malty profile. Shouldn't need any acid with your darker, roastier malts but ez water calc or something will help you work that out.

PM me your email address. I may have a working document for you to peruse.

*Not in any way a personal attack on you Bluesky- water chem seems to always have a bit of controversy attached. I think the historical water profile idea pushed by BJCP and a bit by Palmer is arse about and fundamentally flawed. It's a complex subject but it can be made simple in practical brewing terms.

I'd like to add that just because I replied to this thread, doesn't bring me anywhere close to being a guru on it.


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## MastersBrewery (13/6/12)

manticle, I'm only just starting to string a few AG brew together, I have previously read through a few threads here and elsewhere on the net on water profiles, at this stage just happy to hit my targets so this stuff is out of my league for a while. My question is how much of a difference does the profile make? I ask that question in the context of living in sydney where I believe the profile is reasonably soft, I like my Pale Ales and lagers? will I see significant improvements to my beers when I finally have the confidence with my brew routine to start looking down this path?

Mike

Edit: I gots to learn to type ....one day


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## manticle (13/6/12)

To my palate it makes a discernible difference - both overdoing it and doing it right.

There are essentially three parts to water chemistry that all interact - mash pH and its effect on enzymatic behaviour, ions and their effect on flavour and enzymatic behaviour and water and its effect on mash pH (influenced by the ions within).

In terms of mash pH, using the right amount of calcium will see a possible increase in efficiency in my experience. It's not vast though - you won't jump from 55 to 90 just by adding calcium.

Water chemistry, if you don't have ridiculously hard water, is one of those things you might consider from a tweaking or fine tuning perspective. Obviously you can make beer and decent, good, even very good beer without fiddling. Likewise your beer won't go from being average to fantastic merely by adding in some gypsum.

Understanding how it works is the complex bit. Making soft water appropriate for the beer you are brewing is very easy. Essentially like adding a pinch of salt to a dish. You can make good food without salt but it undeniably adds something to the process in the cooking and the final resulting flavour. Too much stuffs it more than none will.


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## beerdrinkingbob (13/6/12)

This article is handy and a good place to start, I think it was done by one of the Melbourne Brewers. 


My beers have improved following this as a guide but I have also tasted the effects of too much of a good thing :icon_vomit: 

View attachment key_20concepts_20in_20water_20treatment.pdf


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## white.grant (13/6/12)

Yes you need a "water profile" which is a chemicla analysis of the water composition, as opposed to the "water quality analysis" which is a regimen of tests for specific pathogens and chemicals that may be found in the water a certain points in the supply.

Water profile will give you the salts/ph levels that you need to know about before you start drawing on your nomograph and calculating your additions.


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## bum (13/6/12)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> This article is handy and a good place to start, I think it was done by one of the Melbourne Brewers.


Thanks, hadn't seen that before. Good practical introductory article.


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## Dazza88 (13/6/12)

Manticore, and others, do you aim to remove chlorine chloramines from your tap water? What is your method? Did you post about this recently? 

I wonder if removing these things is a primary concern with also the salts. 

I have calium chloride and gypsum and use brewater 3.0 and available water reports to mainly provide sufficient calciumI just ordered a carbon filter for for my filter to do this for future brews.


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## manticle (13/6/12)

Chloramines is an issue if you have them in your water and you will need something like an RO filter (charcoal filter may also work with that - need to check my notes)

However my water is chlorinated, not chloraminated so heat is enough to drive it off. Anything above 20 deg C will see Chlorine start to come out of solution. Hotter the solution is, the quicker it happens. I rely on strike temps and have no issues with chlorephenols (which I have tasted before - very distinctive).

As mentioned above - Tony Wheeler's article is a great summary and a link to it is included in the current wiki article on water/mash adjustment.

Slightly Melbourne centric as it was written for Melbourne brewers but really simplifies things down with good back up reference material. Read it once, leave it, then read it again. Helps engage with some of the slightly more tech based stuff if you get the gist of what's going on there too (and makes it all relevant to HB).


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## 1974Alby (13/6/12)

manticle said:


> I rely on strike temps


Manticle, 
does this mean you simply heat your mash water from tap temps to strike temps and are confident the chlorines are driven off in this time?...for me this takes about 30-45 minutes depending on ambient temp (37L for BIAB) but I hadn't considered that this would be suficient to dechlorinate my water...not that I can sense any chlorine flavours/aromas in my beer.

I actually reckon we have pretty awesome water on a global scale and expect our tap water can produce high quality beer of most varietys without the need for much/any adjustment. :beer:


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## Dazza88 (13/6/12)

Iirc Brisbane water has chloramine, anyone know for sure?

Edit: A quick google says yep, chloramine in Brisbane water. Interested to know what brassy brewers do for that, though I don't want to buy an ro filtration system atm. 

And sry my autocorrect keeps spelling your name manticore.


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## Florian (13/6/12)

manticle said:


> Zinc I add in yeast nutrient form but you can buy zinc chloride and zinc sulphate I believe.



Slightly off topic, but if anyone is interested, I have a bit of Zinc Sulfate laying around which I purchased for non brewing purposes. 

Happy to send out 1.6g to the first 10 or so people to pm me their address for nix incl. free postage. 

Not being stingy with the stuff, but we worked out in another thread that 1.6g lasts for 100 single batches, so should be more than enough for most. Just dilute in 1L of (preferably R/O or distilled) water and add 10ml per brew 10 minutes to end of boil.


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## manticle (13/6/12)

DazDog said:


> Iirc Brisbane water has chloramine, anyone know for sure?
> 
> Edit: A quick google says yep, chloramine in Brisbane water. Interested to know what brassy brewers do for that, though I don't want to buy an ro filtration system atm.
> 
> And sry my autocorrect keeps spelling your name manticore.



Metabisulphites/campden tablets will remove chloramines. Not sure in what quantities though.


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## BlueSky (13/6/12)

Just for anybody interested... Dublin Water For Brewing Discussion c.2006 ...but who the feck knows where Guinness get their water from - River Liffey/council mains supply/own well - or how they may pre-treat it :blink: 




> *Not in any way a personal attack on you Bluesky- water chem seems to always have a bit of controversy attached. *I think the historical water profile idea* pushed by BJCP and a bit by Palmer is arse about and *fundamentally flawed.* It's a complex subject but it can be made simple in practical brewing terms.



Excellent post Manticle & no worries... I agree entirely. I've been reading up on Altbiers and the same 'argument' ensues about the specific water analysis there. 

Just to stir the pot a little more  anybody tried Bru'n Water ???


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## Simon Buckle (13/6/12)

From the water quality report for caboolture from unitywater mean chloramine 0.7 mg/l,
Median 0.2 mg/l.​


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## BlueSky (13/6/12)

manticle said:


> Metabisulphites/campden tablets will remove chloramines. Not sure in what quantities though.



This any help?...



> EDIT:_The usual recommendation of 1 campden tablet per 20 (US) gallons (~77.5l or 17 UK gallons) is intended to deal with a worst-case scenario of 3mg/l chlorine as chloramine. This would add 1.9mg/l of sodium; 3mg/l of chloride, 8mg/l of sulphate, 1.5mg/l ammonium ions and the alkalinity would be reduced by 4.2mg/l as calcium carbonate. If you consider that we normally boost calcium or chloride levels to 100-150mg/l, the extra 8mg/l sulphate or 3mg/l chloride is pretty insignificant. In most cases less metabisulphite will be required, which means some sulphur dioxide will be left over once the chlorine has been removed. Some will be driven off when the liquor is heated prior to mashing and sparging, and the rest will react with organics in the mash reducing them, and forming reductones, which are considered desirable as they help prevent oxidation and staling during storage._:EDIT



From here... JBK Thread ...usual long thread with a few gems of info on the first page (usually from Aleman)


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## manticle (13/6/12)

BlueSky said:


> Just to stir the pot a little more  anybody tried Bru'n Water ???



Not tried it but looking at it linked me to here: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

I've only skim read so far and it would be good to see some more in-text type referencing but the quality of info and the thorough and clearly laid out nature of the article looks really good at first glance.


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## BlueSky (13/6/12)

Oops, apologies, that's just his 'Water Knowledge' page (which I had book-marked)... here's the front page... https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Another free Excel s/sheet for 'building' water but it seems to go a bit further (caveat: I haven't played with it yet).


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## manticle (13/6/12)

No need to apologise - Your first link was right.

I was just saying that reading your first link led ME to the water knowledge page which I thought, without having fully read and digested, looks the goods.


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## manticle (13/6/12)

manticle said:


> Calcium for yeast health and enzyme activity.



I should have added 'AND to drop mash pH' .




Albainian said:


> Manticle,
> does this mean you simply heat your mash water from tap temps to strike temps and are confident the chlorines are driven off in this time?..



Yep.

Measured purely by taste in finished beer but as I said - I have tasted chlorephenols in beer before so if that band aid shit isn't there, I'm happy enough with my process.


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## Nick JD (21/6/12)

Thanks for all the help fellas! So I got the numbers (all mg/L).

Bicarb 43
Chloride 22
Sulphate 10
Calcium 16
Magnesium 1.8
Zinc 0.04
Sodium 14
pH 7.5

What would I need to add to get my water "right"; and what would I add to tweak it for hoppy ales vs smooth lagers? I don't really make dark (roasty) beers.

I'm thinking some CaCl? Or CaSo4? Is 7.5 cool? My mash pH is in the "good" range when I test it (only tested it for decocting). 

Gold coast has some pretty good brewing water, no?


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## Nick JD (21/6/12)

I just bunged my numbers into that Liquor Treatment Calculator and it reckons I add (mg/L):

241 Calcium Sulphate
102 Calcium Chloride
83 Magnesium Sulphate
15 Sodium Chloride

...for "general purpose". Does this sound about right? 

For Lagers

59
45
2
0

Am I on the right track?


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## seamad (21/6/12)

For a 20 litre batch I would add between 6-10g total of CaCl and Ca SO4.
For pils probably @7g CaCl and super hoppy ale maybe 2.5g CaCl and 5g CaSO4. Imbetween beers 50/50 . Not a big lager maker myself,but for hefe/wit etc just the CaCl. Most apa's are 50:50 sometimes with some epsom salts ( 2.5g)in an english bitter, ipa ususally 1:2 Cl:SO4 ratio.

Having said that monitor pH for a bit with your additions too see where you are going.
cheers
sean


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## Nick JD (21/6/12)

It says I need roughly a gram each of CaCl and CaSo4 for a lager for my batch size. Dunno if it's worth bothering there, although it seems reckons Ca is pretty useful when the water is deficient of it.

"General Purpose" - which is probably my PAs, I reckon 4g CaSo4, 2g CaCl, 1.5g MgSo4


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## seamad (21/6/12)

What size are your batches ?


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## Nick JD (21/6/12)

seamad said:


> What size are your batches ?



Generally 17L. I plugged my numbers into this:

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html


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## seamad (21/6/12)

Looks like a good calculator, i tend to use the one on bs2 .

From a chemistry point of view i aim for between 100-150 ppm Ca which pretty well covers the various Ca requirements in the brewing process.

Adjust the Cl:SO4 ratio to suit malty: hoppy.

My personal preference for most pa is equal ratio, probably a good starting point then play around with it to suit your tastes.

Off the top of my head, and ive had a couple of brews already, is a normal mash will produce @18 ppm Ca itself, so you already have 34 ppm with your water.
Cheers
Sean


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## drsmurto (22/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> Thanks for all the help fellas! So I got the numbers (all mg/L).
> 
> Bicarb 43
> Chloride 22
> ...






seamad said:


> For a 20 litre batch I would add between 6-10g total of CaCl and Ca SO4.
> For pils probably @7g CaCl and super hoppy ale maybe 2.5g CaCl and 5g CaSO4. Imbetween beers 50/50 . Not a big lager maker myself,but for hefe/wit etc just the CaCl. Most apa's are 50:50 sometimes with some epsom salts ( 2.5g)in an english bitter, ipa ususally 1:2 Cl:SO4 ratio.
> 
> Having said that monitor pH for a bit with your additions too see where you are going.
> ...






Nick JD said:


> It says I need roughly a gram each of CaCl and CaSo4 for a lager for my batch size. Dunno if it's worth bothering there, although it seems reckons Ca is pretty useful when the water is deficient of it.
> 
> "General Purpose" - which is probably my PAs, I reckon 4g CaSo4, 2g CaCl, 1.5g MgSo4



The first one to produce CaCl gets a nomination for a Nobel Prize.


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## Nick JD (22/6/12)

DrSmurto said:


> The first one to produce CaCl gets a nomination for a Nobel Prize.



Care to help - or are you only here to show everyone you're brainy with year 9 chemistry? Even I can remember that Ca has two plusses and Cl only one minus. I just didn't think anyone would be a big enough arse to care about my missing "2". Seems I was wrong.


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## MHB (22/6/12)

Maybe not so much care as know that its really important to get the basics right.
M


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## seamad (22/6/12)

and that i have a science degree too, the shame the shame, best go top myself now.


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## drsmurto (22/6/12)

Water chemistry requires attention to detail.

Given you know it should be CaCl2 (plus how ever many water molecules your particular sample contains) but write it as CaCl demonstrates your lack of attention to detail.

I don't see it as my job to educate you Nick, given you can read and write you have all that is required to do the research yourself.


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## eamonnfoley (22/6/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Water chemistry requires attention to detail.
> 
> Given you know it should be CaCl2 (plus how ever many water molecules your particular sample contains) but write it as CaCl demonstrates your lack of attention to detail.
> 
> I don't see it as my job to educate you Nick, given you can read and write you have all that is required to do the research yourself.



If only we had a name like epsum or gypsum for it, these arguments would not happen  

Lets name it "crapsum"


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## kymba (22/6/12)

foles said:


> If only we had a name like epsum or gypsum for it, these arguments would not happen
> 
> Lets name it "crapsum"



i think "santorum" would be more fitting


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## Fish13 (17/2/13)

off topic from Nickjd's orginal post but i cant make pale ale beers very well. Make them dark, amber onwards, and its fine.

the flavour is nice but then this overpowering "sort of sweetness". I know the bunbury water has alot of calicum carbonate in it and i have a very white element in my urns...

To try o solve this should i pre boil the water in the urns and then brew the next day?

Boil the water in the urn and then transfer to a fermentor placed in the fridge to clean the urn of the CaCO3?


I was trying additions of gypsum at the boil to improve the hop pronounceness but have given that up after my last pales.


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## Nick JD (17/2/13)

Collect rainwater.


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## manticle (17/2/13)

Fish - temporary hardness (relating to bicarbonte content) can be removed by boiling and allowing precipitation. Permanent hardness (relating to sulphate content) needs treatment with slaked lime or removal by RO water filter.
Pretty sure gryphon brewing is au fait with mash and water chem so see if you can get his advice on the best approach with WA water.


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## Nick JD (17/2/13)

Most importantly though, whatever you do, remember to pay attention to detail - this is most important - leaving a "2" off the end of a salt will incur the _Wrath of the Geeks_.

Remember, it's not their job to educate you, it's their job to point out your mistakes.


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## bum (17/2/13)

It is the same thing when you're wrong, Nick.


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## Nick JD (17/2/13)

I'm never wrong, bum.

Sometimes I'm just not quite right.

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl

CaCl2


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## bum (17/2/13)




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## Beerisyummy (27/2/13)

Even monkeys need a hug now and then. Maybe it was his priest, but hey, who knows.
I just keep hearing Whitney in the corner of my mind.

Getting beyond the whole Nick JD ego trip, what is the answer to your question?

Don't get me wrong, I love your approach, but you can be a bit problematic.
I'd like to hear some insider trading secrets.

I have an RO/DI filter for my water and would like to know if I should be compensating for pure water additions? PPM= 000 with DI. 003 without.
(PSI filters supplied rig for treating reef tank evaporation top off)


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## Beerisyummy (27/2/13)

In fact, if anyone would like to try a pure water brew in my area, they are welcome to some water.

There's also shirt loads of damprid if you need the calcium chloride addition.


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