# BU-GU Ratio



## wombil (31/7/14)

Hey Guys,
I am doing an Irish Red and brewmate gives me a bu-gu ratio of 0.82.
I have made quite a few of these and they come out pretty good but I have never thought about this ratio thing.I don't like to complicate things unnecessarily.
Anyway, what does this thing mean and what should the ratio be ?
Mine is 0.82 and the beer is good so perhaps 0.82 is the perfect percentage.
I've been wrong before tho.
Cheers.


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## QldKev (31/7/14)

I think the BU:GU ratio is not worth watching. It's just a number made up from two important numbers. Also it does not take into account what the grain bill actually is. Malts like munich and dark malts need more IBUs to compliment them. I prefer to stick within the BJCP style guidelines.

But if you go by the guidelines for 9D Irish Red Ale, you are allowed IBU 17-28, and OG 1.044-1.060. So avg 23 IBU and avg 52 OG, 23/52 = 0.44, even using the extremes highest IBU 28 and lowest OG 44, 28/44 = 0.63; therefore you are very bitter for the style, and outside of the acceptable range.

I would prefer to see the IBU and OG listed, along with the actual recipe.


edit: Does brewmate allow you to select the style sheet for the brew and see how it compares to the guidelines.


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## QldKev (31/7/14)

Here's a pic from Beersmith of what I mean, "Style Guide Comparison"








So in this example, the BU:GU is high but within the acceptable ranges.


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## wombil (31/7/14)

Thanks Kev for that,
I think your first thought "",not to worry about"" that is my idea too.
See if I can get a shot of my brewmate screen up here.
Not worried about style guidelines Kev. only if the results are ok for me.
Last one hadmore cara red and caraaroma and was more black than red so we'll see how this one goes.
It's always a good drink..
Thanks,
wombil.


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## mosto (31/7/14)

I don't worry too much about BU:GU value. With Brewmate, if you're out of style for a particular value, it will turn from grey to yellow (such as it has for the IBU value in your screenshot). If you hover the cursor over the field it will display the range for that value, as per the style guidelines, ie if you hover the cursor over the IBU value field, a small square will appear saying 17-28, indicating that is the IBU range in the style guidelines for an Irish Red Ale.


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## danestead (31/7/14)

What FG do you normally get when brewing this beer? I prefer to mainly focus on a ratio that compares the FG as a real extract ratio (REU - basically the FG corrected for the skewing affects of alcohol) to bitterness.


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## wombil (31/7/14)

I normally get about 1.016 / 1.014.
I really am not concerned about guidelines for a specific style.
I just didn't know what that ratio meant.
Basically I just want to make beer that I like.bjcp (whatever that is )styles etc. are of little matter to me.
Thanks for the answer and interest


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## wombil (31/7/14)

Thanks mosto,I didn't know about hovering the cursor.


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## danestead (31/7/14)

wombil said:
 

> I normally get about 1.016 / 1.014.
> I really am not concerned about guidelines for a specific style.
> I just didn't know what that ratio meant.
> Basically I just want to make beer that I like.bjcp (whatever that is )styles etc. are of little matter to me.
> Thanks for the answer and interest


Ok when looking at the FG side of things it still comes out more bitter than an average Irish red style beer. More like pale ale bitterness really but if you say it tastes balanced then that is great!

The ratio is just how your bitterness compares to your original gravity. In general, a higher OG will leave a higher residual sweetness hence needing a higher amount of bitterness to balance it. That is why people often look at BU:GU (bitterness units:gravity units) or BU:REU (bitterness units:real extract units) ratios.

Hope that helps.


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## wombil (31/7/14)

Thanks danestead,
I can understand it more now after that.
I usually aim for an OG of i.050 but it has gone up to 1.056 which I thought was a bit high.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/7/14)

I actually find IBU:SG rather important.

Its one of the fundamentals of designing a beer.


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## QldKev (31/7/14)

even thou we have style guidelines which list the IBU and OG range?


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/7/14)

Yes.

Have a read of Designing Great Beers.


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## QldKev (31/7/14)

I own a copy of and have read it...

To clarify what I mean, is the style guidelines give us the valid range for both IBU and OG. So why then take a number that is derived from the initial two numbers to say is the beer is valid. It does show us the bittering Vs the malty sweetness to get a theoretical idea. But we need to stay within the guidelines for the style.

Can you clarify why the number is so important to you once you understand the beerstyle.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/7/14)

I could, but you will only want to argue the point, so no, I wont.


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## QldKev (31/7/14)

So you are happy to say it is a fundamental idea of designing a beer as Ray once wrote, but wont back it up why you said you find it important. Not meaning to be argumentative, I am honestly interested why you find it a key.

If we stay within the style guidelines wont we always meet the ratio?
Wouldn't a BU to FG be a better number for designing a great beer?


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## mje1980 (31/7/14)

It's just another guide people can use. Not everyone gives a crap about the bjcp. I mean, do you think the Belgian monks, or the guys at pilsner urquell gave 2 fucks about brewing to a certain style?


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/7/14)

BJCP...meh...


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## QldKev (31/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> It's just another guide people can use. Not everyone gives a crap about the bjcp. I mean, do you think the Belgian monks, or the guys at pilsner urquell gave 2 fucks about brewing to a certain style?


Wasn't the guidelines written based on real world examples for the style? Hence the monks didn't care for a style guideline, but the guidelines were based to reflect their examples?

Also if you don't follow the style guidelines how do you know what a valid BU:OG would be for a style?



Ducatiboy stu said:


> BJCP...meh...


will leave it at that then.






For the record, I do brew beers that don't meet style guidelines. My house APA is outside the APA guideline.


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## sp0rk (31/7/14)

Toasting in an epic bread


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## danestead (31/7/14)

To the original poster, don't worry about the guys above having a little tiff.

But anyway, if anyone is going to bag out the BJCP, then you are only bagging out a 'loose set of guidelines that encompass the majority of the average examples of that style'. Not a binding set of rules. So I'm not really sure why you are arguing a mute point...


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## Alex.Tas (31/7/14)

QldKev said:


> If we stay within the style guidelines wont we always meet the ratio?
> Wouldn't a BU to FG be a better number for designing a great beer?


My understanding is that fg is kinda a measure of residual sweetness of a brew. This sweetness needs to be offset by hop bitterness. You can have two brews with similar OGs, but wildly different residual sweetnesses (FGs), therefore requiring different levels of bitterness to balance a the beer.
So I would think that logically, you would want to compare the fg to the ibu, as og doesn't really dictate the finishing sweetness.
Does that make sense?

I understand that fg isn't only reflecting apparent sweetness...

Edit: so kev, I agree


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## wombil (31/7/14)

Me too


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## manticle (31/7/14)

BU/GU ratio is a guide, one of many you can choose (or not) to use to design a recipe.
BJCP guidelines are another thing you can choose (or not) to help design a recipe.

At the end of the day, you need to be smart enough to work out what each element brings and how to tweak it to make the beer you want to make.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/7/14)

manticle said:


> At the end of the day, you need to be smart enough to work out what each element brings and how to tweak it to make the beer you want to make.


Indeed


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## dicko (3/8/14)

When you look at it there is probably no right or wrong answer.

The OP stated that he was happy with his beer and after checking what the bu/ gu ratio was, he found it to be outside the guidelines for the style, according to the "rules"

Bitterness IMO relies on the perception of the drinker.
For me, the classic example is an Aussie Lager. The bitterness levels according to the " rules" are too low for me and when I make one I have the IBU in the red on Beersmith which is generally a couple of points above what is stated.
When I give this same beer to my son and his wife they both tend to say that it is a bit too bitter but for me it is fine.

I think that they, at least in theory, are correct because they are comparing my beer to the incipid swill that is served across the bar in most aussie pubs, which probably does fall within the style guidelines but is not to my taste.

Make beer and if you enjoy what you have made then make it again....if it isn't to your liking then change it.
If you are entering competitions that use BJCP as the base then brew to style according to your software.


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## pat86 (3/8/14)

To the OP it is quite a valid question. I've wondered before if I had a number that worked for me so I could alter recipes to my tastes but it is a bit tricky as I like quite a lot of different styles. 

So far, I basically figured what Dicko did - that for most beers I make, I prefer them more bitter and hoppy beers more hoppy, than what other people may etc... 

To Alex and co. Talking about using FG instead of OG that seems to make sense... I wonder why haven't people been doing it?


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## Blind Dog (3/8/14)

To paraphrase Henry Ford there's lies, damn lies and brewing statistics. If it's good that's all that counts

But, maybe one of them holds the secret to the perfect pint. I feel an obsession coming on...


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## Blind Dog (3/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> To paraphrase Henry Ford there's lies, damn lies and brewing statistics. If it's good that's all that counts
> But, maybe one of them holds the secret to the perfect pint. I feel an obsession coming on...


Or even Mark Twain. It's late


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