# Some Questions On Brewing Cider



## dingo34

Hi All,
This is my first post here, I found this forum doing a search in google for home brew forum australia..

I wish to brew my own cider. As a cider drinker here in South Australia, my favourite cider is Bulmers cider, not that easy to get and expensive, and then my next favourite (the one I drink most) is Strongbow Dry. I don't like the sweet or original, they are too sweet. I can't drink Mercury cider either, for some reason it makes my teeth itchy.

Anyway, I would love to make a brew that resembled somewhat, Bulmers or Strongbow Dry, but more importantly, avoid anything that is too sweet.

I have found that there are quite a few recipes and methods. 

If I wanted to brew using straight apple juice, and was to use 18 litres of the stuff (I have the standard Coopers brew drum), where would I get so much at the best price?

Is using stright apple juice the best way for my tastes?

Are there any brew kits from local brewhouses that would give me something close to my tastes?

How about any recipes from those who like the same ciders as I do?

Thanks guys
Dingo


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## adniels3n

If you like dry cider, then you're in luck. Making it sweet is the harder bit. The yeast will eat up all the sugar leaving barely any sweetness at all.
If I'm buying juice, I wait till the Berri 2.4L come on sale. I aim for $1/L. Aldi or similar shops may be cheaper, but out here I'm stuck with Woolies or Coles.
For kits, Blackrock seems to get more positive comments than Brigalow.
Try a small batch done in the juice bottle first if you want a small scale taste test.
Have a search around in here, there's a few "My 1st Cider" type threads.


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## Greg.L

I think all the commercial cider in Australia is sweetened, even the stuff they call dry. Strongbow dry is actually fairly sweet. By law cider in Australia for sale must be mostly fermented apple juice, so its not really a recipe thing, more like wine in choosing the right juice and process. You should try to get some fully dry cider to see if you like it.
The easiest way to sweeten cider is in a keg kept cool and force-carbed with co2, so you can avoid bottle bombs. The best cider comes from the best juice, but aside from growing and pressing your own apples its not so easy to get good juice in Oz. Supermarket stuff is mostly concentrate from china.


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## Airgead

There is also a very good Austro Vino kit available through Ibrew. Its probably the best I have seen. I used to make it heaps before I switched to pressing my own juice. Its made from real cider apples so it gives a better flavour than some ciders made out of supermarket juice. Supermarket juice tends to be too low in acid and astringency to make a really good cider. You can add acid and tannin to help it out though.

Cheers
Dave


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## dingo34

Thanks for that, I never ever thought of doing a sample bottle in the juice bottle.....how easy is it? I mean, i have only ever done kits so wouldn't know where to start.....I'll have to have a look around this forum....as for kits, I did try brigalow a couple of years back but it lacked taste, it was like bubbly water more than anything else...


Muddzy said:


> If you like dry cider, then you're in luck. Making it sweet is the harder bit. The yeast will eat up all the sugar leaving barely any sweetness at all.
> If I'm buying juice, I wait till the Berri 2.4L come on sale. I aim for $1/L. Aldi or similar shops may be cheaper, but out here I'm stuck with Woolies or Coles.
> For kits, Blackrock seems to get more positive comments than Brigalow.
> Try a small batch done in the juice bottle first if you want a small scale taste test.
> Have a search around in here, there's a few "My 1st Cider" type threads.


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## dingo34

Thanks, this was something I didn't actually know....can you suggest a dry cider for me to try?


Greg.L said:


> I think all the commercial cider in Australia is sweetened, even the stuff they call dry. Strongbow dry is actually fairly sweet. By law cider in Australia for sale must be mostly fermented apple juice, so its not really a recipe thing, more like wine in choosing the right juice and process. You should try to get some fully dry cider to see if you like it.
> The easiest way to sweeten cider is in a keg kept cool and force-carbed with co2, so you can avoid bottle bombs. The best cider comes from the best juice, but aside from growing and pressing your own apples its not so easy to get good juice in Oz. Supermarket stuff is mostly concentrate from china.


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## dingo34

When i did a search on home brew cider recipes, I saw this a lot, pressing your own juice...is this hard, is it the better way to go for both cost and taste? I'm willing to try different methods...cheers


Airgead said:


> There is also a very good Austro Vino kit available through Ibrew. Its probably the best I have seen. I used to make it heaps before I switched to pressing my own juice. Its made from real cider apples so it gives a better flavour than some ciders made out of supermarket juice. Supermarket juice tends to be too low in acid and astringency to make a really good cider. You can add acid and tannin to help it out though.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


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## wynnum1

Made one batch of cider from Woolworth home brand 3 l total 20 L using Essencia - Super 6 Ultra Pure turned out quite good the super 6 is nutrient and yeast used 20 grams out of 100 g pack no added sugar about 5% next batch 26 L coles homebrand 3 l but added 2 kg white sugar and rest of yeast mixture .Sugar boiled with phosphoric acid and water for 20 minutes trying to invert sugar which after a week bubbling quickly now


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## KudaPucat

dingo34 said:


> When i did a search on home brew cider recipes, I saw this a lot, pressing your own juice...is this hard, is it the better way to go for both cost and taste? I'm willing to try different methods...cheers



It's relatively easy, though time consuming or requiring gear.
Greg and I both puree Apple then press it (puree is too fine a term, perhaps mulch would be better) using an apple scratter(me) or a garden mulcher (Greg) we had quite a big discussion about it recently in this forum, so you should be able to find it. it definitely had cider in the title, perhaps 'whole apples' or something too.

We then press with a hydraulic press after wrapping the apples in cheesecloth to make 'cheeses'

If you have to buy your apple, unless you able to get them from an orchard at stupid cheap prices, then I don't think pressing your own juice is as financially viable as getting juice from the market.
Check out your local markets and farmer's markets, some apple merchants sell pure fresh, preservative free juice. WIth some warning, they could bring you 20 litres at a good price.

If you get raw juice, you don't need nutrient. Yeast just LOVE apple juice.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Apple Juice from Aldi, decent homebrew dried yeast (at least 12g) - I used Nottingham last time, because it tends to ferment very dry and likes lower temps. If you want some fancy juice to give it a bit of depth (I used some cloudy stuff from BiLo) or some other fruit (apples, raspberries, blueberries - so it's a bit like Koppenberg/Rekorderlig) then feel free, but not necessary.

Sterlise fermenter, rehydrate yeast with lukewarm water until it looks like it's happy and eating (a teaspoon of sugar never hurts here) and once all is ready, chuck in apple juice and then yeast, give it a stir and leave until finished (hydrometer test - around 1.005-1.010 for mine).

That'll do it for the brewing side.

Goomba


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## Airgead

dingo34 said:


> When i did a search on home brew cider recipes, I saw this a lot, pressing your own juice...is this hard, is it the better way to go for both cost and taste? I'm willing to try different methods...cheers



I press between 30 and 40kg of apples (a mix of sweet eating and tart cooking) apples each year through a simple screw press juicer. Works a treat but it does take most of a day. One of these days I'll invest ion a proper scratter and press.

The tart apples add the acidity you need to balance the cider. I throw them through cores and all to extract tannins which helps with the balance as well.

Well worth the effort IMHO.

Cheers
Dave


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## Greg.L

Hard to suggest a dry cider for you. You might be able to get a dry english craft cider from one of the big bottle shops. The easiest way is to make some yourself. people do 4L batches, a 4L glass jug is a good way to get started. I think glass demijohns are the best way to make cider, and you need to top them up right into the neck once primary has finished to keep air out. If you do it that way its pretty foolproof, but you need to allow at least 2 months ageing, preferably 4-6 months to let the flavour settle.

Greg


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## Tanga

I like Strongbow dry, and so far my fav cider made with bought juice are the apple and pear (I used 1/4 pear, but will probably ramp it up to 50% next time as it could have done with more sweetness) and apple and blackcurrent. The yeast I used was 1118 - so it brewed out pretty dry. A cider yeast might give you some residual sweetness.

I used oztops because you get a result quicker, but here's the ghetto version:
Buy the juice you want to trial
Pour out a cup (drink it, whatever)
Put 1/4 teaspoon of dry yeast in
Put some gladwrap over the top of the bottle and seal it with a rubber band. Clean and keep the lid.
Brew for a couple of weeks (maybe 3-4 in this weather) - try and keep it kind of constant though, whatever the temp (not up and down heaps).

When it's done* gently pour the juice off the lees (the dead yeast) and into a softdrink bottle. Add about 8g of sugar a litre for priming purposes. Let sit for at least a week (or probably two) until the bottle is hard (ie full of CO2) and then refrigerate for as long as you can handle not drinking it (at least a day, a week is ideal) and then taste.

*you can guess whether it's done - based on the yeast dropping out and the time being up - but I suggest you use your hydrometer. You can put it straight into the bottle after a couple of weeks. Make sure it's clean and you pour boiling water over it to reduce the risk of infection.

I think that's a pretty good way of trailing different kinds of juice. You can mix together some apple and pear juices to see which is the best ratio for your tastes (1/4 pear worked for me, but I think 1/3 or even 1/2 might be better).

You won't get something that tastes like Bulmers easily unless you Keg (because it's sweet) but you can aim for something like strongbow dry and get it pretty easily using just juice and yeast.


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## nathanR

I have been doing a cider with just apple & pear juice 

30 Lt of berri apple and pear juice 
S04 ale yeast 
yeast nutrient
coopers Brew enhancer 1 


it has turned out pretty tasty a lot nicer than straight apple juice


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## dingo34

Allrighty!!! Thanks for all the tips. I reckon first off, I'm gonna go Tanga's way, just for tasting purposes. I assume all these fancy yeasts, such as 1118 and others I see mentioned have to be bought from a brew shop..is this correct? I assume you don't use a dried yeast that is used in baking bread etc, like the ones you get at the supermarket?

cheers
An excited Dingo!


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## Tanga

Yup, you can get them online too - look at the dried yeast to start - it's more convenient for small batches. I haven't tried the S04 yeast suggested by Nathan, but have heard good things about it as a cider yeast (it is a beer yeast, but is pretty neutral in flavour so works well for cider too). If want to do only cider (not wine) you can do worse than grabbing a couple of sachets of S04 to play with (you will only need to use 1/10 of the sachet for each bottle though - not one per bottle).

1118 comes in dry form too, and will (probably) give you a dryer taste - so if you want you can compare them. Either will work.

D47 is a wine yeast (so it will do wine and cider) but doesn't end up quite as dry as 1118 so is a good mid range one. It is one of the better mead yeasts I've come across too (only aged my current batch 4 months and it's drinking well).

None of these should set you back more than a few bucks a sachet/tube of dry. Five bucks tops.

I haven't tried adding any malt to a cider yet, but Nathan's looks like a good one. If you don't want to try making a small batch of that I certainly will - I'll let you know how it turns out =).


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## dingo34

Cheers for all that...speaking of adding other things, which I shall do in due time...I was at the Inglewood pub a few fridays ago and asked them what cidars they had, and apart from Aussie cider on tap (which I don't like), they had some locally made, from Houghton a Cider Stout, or Stout Cider, one of the two... :huh: , and I didn't think I'd take to them, but tried one and before the night was out I was buying a six pack to go....


on another note, could someone help me with a technical issue with this forum...when i am writing my posts, i can't see a cursor, etc and am unable to move back and edit withuot having to delete everything i wrote back to the part i want to change, it's really weird..unless i need a cider...yep maybe thats it..


Tanga said:


> Yup, you can get them online too - look at the dried yeast to start - it's more convenient for small batches. I haven't tried the S04 yeast suggested by Nathan, but have heard good things about it as a cider yeast (it is a beer yeast, but is pretty neutral in flavour so works well for cider too). If want to do only cider (not wine) you can do worse than grabbing a couple of sachets of S04 to play with (you will only need to use 1/10 of the sachet for each bottle though - not one per bottle).
> 
> 1118 comes in dry form too, and will (probably) give you a dryer taste - so if you want you can compare them. Either will work.
> 
> D47 is a wine yeast (so it will do wine and cider) but doesn't end up quite as dry as 1118 so is a good mid range one. It is one of the better mead yeasts I've come across too (only aged my current batch 4 months and it's drinking well).
> 
> None of these should set you back more than a few bucks a sachet/tube of dry. Five bucks tops.
> 
> I haven't tried adding any malt to a cider yet, but Nathan's looks like a good one. If you don't want to try making a small batch of that I certainly will - I'll let you know how it turns out =).


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## felten

dingo34 said:


> on another note, could someone help me with a technical issue with this forum...when i am writing my posts, i can't see a cursor, etc and am unable to move back and edit withuot having to delete everything i wrote back to the part i want to change, it's really weird..unless i need a cider...yep maybe thats it..


you have to toggle the rich text editor... like this


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## [email protected]

Its related so rather than start a new one, il just tag on the back of this one. 

I want to re-culture my Wyeast Cider 4766 from a few of my earlier attempts

Can i just use 1035 gravity Dex and water? will they still be ok to eat the fruit sugars after?
i will prob use juice later on in the stepping up, i have none at the moment.

cheers


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## pk.sax

Cider is quite forgiving. Should be ok with dex. Fruit sugars aren't too complex wrt dex anyway, less diff than malt.

PS: op - do it how tanga has so thoroughly described but use the home/cles brand cloudy apple juice from their fridge shelf. Any White wine yeast will do, think ec-1118 is the most widely stocked by brew shops. Keep it simple and you'll be happy. I'd suggest, before the fermentation is totally over (day 3-4) put the bottle cap back on and stickthe bottle in the door of your fridge, it will continue to ferment and carbonate in the same bottle. Really nothing wrong with pouring sparkling cider off the original yeast lees  as you go down the bottle the dryness increases given time to the slowed down ferment and taste a bunch of different flavours out of it.


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## super_simian

My best simple attempt so far used Coopers Homebrew Yeast, the gold foil packet from their kit cans. The apple/pear/banana aroma really set off the cider, and a little bit of strong tea help bump some tannins in.


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## KudaPucat

The best commercial actually dry cider I've had was called "Bress" I think. Very good on a hot day. Hard to drink on a cold night. So probably what you'd expect. 
It's bloody expensive, some $28 per 750ml, but a damn fine drop. 
I've only ever had it in Daylesford, Victoria. So I hope it's not too local a brew.


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## dingo34

OK, I have bought a 3 litre Apple Juice from Coles, which said 'No Added sugar'.( I could not find the cloudy apple juice in the fridge section practical fool mention -


> use the home/cles brand cloudy apple juice from their fridge shelf


. I am assuming you meant coles?). 

I also went to BrewCraft, I don't know any other brew shops in the Salisbury area, but they did not have 1118 yeast, said it's hard to get, but gave me what he said is equivalent, CL23 wine yeast.

I asked him if the yeast will keep in the fridge, he said maybe maybe not, it's not something you could count on, so I thought, maybe then I will buy 4 or 5 different types of Apple juices etc, to see which turns out better,

But, I did have another question, Tanga, you mentioned to just put yeast in, not sugar, until the 2nd stage, is that right? I only ask because when i brewed beer i was sure we put sugar in both stages

Cheers


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## KudaPucat

dingo34 said:


> <snip>
> I also went to BrewCraft, I don't know any other brew shops in the Salisbury area, but they did not have 1118 yeast, said it's hard to get, but gave me what he said is equivalent, CL23 wine yeast.
> 
> I asked him if the yeast will keep in the fridge, he said maybe maybe not, it's not something you could count on, so I thought, maybe then I will buy 4 or 5 different types of Apple juices etc, to see which turns out better,
> 
> But, I did have another question, Tanga, you mentioned to just put yeast in, not sugar, until the 2nd stage, is that right? I only ask because when i brewed beer i was sure we put sugar in both stages
> 
> Cheers



1. Find a new brew shop Lalvin 1118 is one of the most common yeasts sold in this country
2. It will keep just fine in the fridge. condensation is your biggest enemy, so if you can vacuum seal it, it'll have more chance
3. you shouldn't need to add sugar unless you want to 
a ) have a higher alcohol content or residual sweetness 
b ) destroy some of the apple flavour... pure glucose imho blows off some aromatics when fermented. It's good for beer and spirits, but I keep it away from such wonderful things as apple and fruit wines and mead.

When I've made cidre, it's just been pure apple juice and yeast. With your store bought apple juice, you may need to add nutrient, so keep a nostril out for faint sulphur/rotten egg smells, and feed the yeast if need be.

I've never used the yeast you were sold so I cannot comment.
However if it makes a good batch, I can tell you your cidre wont last long, so your idea of a compare and contrast is probably a good idea.

Edit: You'll want to make sure the apple juice is preservative free... if it's been loaded with Sodium Metabi-sulphate, your yeast probably wont take.


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## Tanga

What he said. Especially the bit about preservative free juice.

The sugar I mentioned (12g/L) is not much, a few teaspoons, and is added after the fermentation is finished just for the bubbles.


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## Gopha

dingo34 said:


> OK, I have bought a 3 litre Apple Juice from Coles, which said 'No Added sugar'.( I could not find the cloudy apple juice in the fridge section practical fool mention - . I am assuming you meant coles?).
> 
> I also went to BrewCraft, I don't know any other brew shops in the Salisbury area, but they did not have 1118 yeast, said it's hard to get, but gave me what he said is equivalent, CL23 wine yeast.
> 
> I asked him if the yeast will keep in the fridge, he said maybe maybe not, it's not something you could count on, so I thought, maybe then I will buy 4 or 5 different types of Apple juices etc, to see which turns out better,
> 
> But, I did have another question, Tanga, you mentioned to just put yeast in, not sugar, until the 2nd stage, is that right? I only ask because when i brewed beer i was sure we put sugar in both stages
> 
> Cheers


Hi, if you need some help and live on the north side, PM me for a phone number and I wil walk you through the process. CL23 yeast is a Vintners Harvest yeast and is a Brewcraft own brand, just repackaged wine yeasts. I use SN9 for my annual Mead and Cyser, both are variations of a champagne yeast. My experience with Brewcraft Salisbury is such that I prefer not to go there. Cheers


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## KudaPucat

Oh, just priming sugar? Yeah well don't have much choice. I suppose you could add raw juice, but it would not be worth the effort. 


Gopha said:


> <snip>
> My experience with Brewcraft Salisbury is such that I prefer not to go there. Cheers



Lol! From the horse's mouth! As I predicted ;-)


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## Tanga

Just googled it. Yeah, same yeast, more or less. If you live out south I'll probably be up for it. Or at least the tasting sesh in a couple of weeks =p


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## pk.sax

Well, if brewing in the bottle itself - easy to not add any sugar, just cap and fridge a little early. I keep repeating the keep in door trick, it really works. The fermentation slows down but doesn't stop.

If brewing in a carboy or something, well... It's so darn easy with apple juice. The bottle will have the amount of sugar/litre on the label. You practically don't need a hydrometer with cider if you let it ferment dry and carbonate very conservatively (waiting for flames... Yea yea hydros are out best friends, use them). Just go by volume and add enough juice from a new bottle to bring the total amount of sugar in the carboy to the right level for carbing.
What is simpler is to carbonate 4 litres of cider you need ~1 cup/glass of juice. Perfect reason to open another bottle of juice and set it to ferment after taking a cup full out  PS: brewcraft stores are really annoying, try ordering online even. These site sponsors are real brick and mortar stores and pretty happy to deal with you over the phone too 

PS: yes, Coles brand cloudy apple juice. I suppose it's seasonal, manes a great cider though - grapefruit flavours at one stage, mouth puckering dry if you let it ferment out. Almost like champagne as it ages. I kept a few bottles as much as 3-4 months, they drank great even in late months. Good thing about using rich sort of juices, esp cloudy ones is how they age compared to the clear stuff  all that nutrient breaking down and fermenting slowly. And you have to do SFA different to making regular cider.


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## pk.sax

Btw, chillax... Cider is easy  it's not beer, it doesn't demand the same fussiness as beer (except sanitation). Drop a few washed cherries or berries or a sliced strawberry or something in a ferment and see the difference it makes. A friend of mine does that a lot with his cider. They are lovely.


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## dingo34

thanks for the info...when you say 'feed the yeast'..what do you mean, do you mean add more, if so the same amount? Cheers  



KudaPucat said:


> 1. Find a new brew shop Lalvin 1118 is one of the most common yeasts sold in this country
> 2. It will keep just fine in the fridge. condensation is your biggest enemy, so if you can vacuum seal it, it'll have more chance
> 3. you shouldn't need to add sugar unless you want to
> a ) have a higher alcohol content or residual sweetness
> b ) destroy some of the apple flavour... pure glucose imho blows off some aromatics when fermented. It's good for beer and spirits, but I keep it away from such wonderful things as apple and fruit wines and mead.
> 
> When I've made cidre, it's just been pure apple juice and yeast. With your store bought apple juice, you may need to add nutrient, so keep a nostril out for faint sulphur/rotten egg smells, and feed the yeast if need be.
> 
> I've never used the yeast you were sold so I cannot comment.
> However if it makes a good batch, I can tell you your cidre wont last long, so your idea of a compare and contrast is probably a good idea.
> 
> Edit: You'll want to make sure the apple juice is preservative free... if it's been loaded with Sodium Metabi-sulphate, your yeast probably wont take.


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## dingo34

Sorry for all these questions....if i was to buy a bottle of apple juice from Coles' fridge, do i wait for it to get to room temperature before throwing in the yeast? 


practicalfool said:


> Well, if brewing in the bottle itself - easy to not add any sugar, just cap and fridge a little early. I keep repeating the keep in door trick, it really works. The fermentation slows down but doesn't stop.
> 
> If brewing in a carboy or something, well... It's so darn easy with apple juice. The bottle will have the amount of sugar/litre on the label. You practically don't need a hydrometer with cider if you let it ferment dry and carbonate very conservatively (waiting for flames... Yea yea hydros are out best friends, use them). Just go by volume and add enough juice from a new bottle to bring the total amount of sugar in the carboy to the right level for carbing.
> What is simpler is to carbonate 4 litres of cider you need ~1 cup/glass of juice. Perfect reason to open another bottle of juice and set it to ferment after taking a cup full out  PS: brewcraft stores are really annoying, try ordering online even. These site sponsors are real brick and mortar stores and pretty happy to deal with you over the phone too
> 
> PS: yes, Coles brand cloudy apple juice. I suppose it's seasonal, manes a great cider though - grapefruit flavours at one stage, mouth puckering dry if you let it ferment out. Almost like champagne as it ages. I kept a few bottles as much as 3-4 months, they drank great even in late months. Good thing about using rich sort of juices, esp cloudy ones is how they age compared to the clear stuff  all that nutrient breaking down and fermenting slowly. And you have to do SFA different to making regular cider.


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## pk.sax

dingo34 said:


> Sorry for all these questions....if i was to buy a bottle of apple juice from Coles' fridge, do i wait for it to get to room temperature before throwing in the yeast?



I keep my yeast in the fridge. Its the same temperature as whatever else comes out of the fridge. I stick the wine yeast straight into the bottle, no warming up or anything, its warm enough where I live for it to come up by itself. Both the yeast and the juice just happen to come from the same fridge.

Beer, always let the yeast acclimatise to the temperature of the wort you are pitching it into. Fermetation will however only start when the yeast's operating temperature is reached. And, just cause I had this crazy thought come in my head, NO - don't pitch the yeast cold and microwave the whole thing, it will kill the yeast.

PS: feeding the yeast means giving it nutrients to de-stress it. Look for yeast nutrient or just boil up some bread yeast and feed that to the yeast, I don't think you need it though.


Code:


Its more often required for making starters for yeast where using sugar or dextrose for the starter instead of wort.


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## dingo34

OK guys, I have gone ahead and started with four varieties. The varieties are the following:

Coles Home Brand Apple Juice 3 litres (put in 3/8 tsp yeast)
Coles Home Brand Apple and BlackCurrent juice 3 litres (3/8 tsp yeast)
Coles Cloudy Apple Juice form the fridge 2 litres (1/2 tsp yeast)
Just Juice 3 litres Apple juice (3/8 tsp yeast)

I also have one of those heating pads for kegs, I have put all 4 bottles on this pad to keep temp constant.

Of all the bottles, the Cloudy Apple juice (2l) and the Apple Blackcurrent, are forming bubbles, the other two are not. Will keep you all posted

Cheers
Dingo


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## Camo1234

dingo34 said:


> OK guys, I have gone ahead and started with four varieties. The varieties are the following:
> 
> Coles Home Brand Apple Juice 3 litres (put in 3/8 tsp yeast)
> Coles Home Brand Apple and BlackCurrent juice 3 litres (3/8 tsp yeast)
> Coles Cloudy Apple Juice form the fridge 2 litres (1/2 tsp yeast)
> Just Juice 3 litres Apple juice (3/8 tsp yeast)
> 
> I also have one of those heating pads for kegs, I have put all 4 bottles on this pad to keep temp constant.
> 
> Of all the bottles, the Cloudy Apple juice (2l) and the Apple Blackcurrent, are forming bubbles, the other two are not. Will keep you all posted
> 
> Cheers
> Dingo




Mate can you tell me what yeast you are using and what temp you have them at?


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## dingo34

Camo1234 said:


> Mate can you tell me what yeast you are using and what temp you have them at?



Hey mate, I used CL23 champagne yeast, it's from BrewCraft, but I've since been told I can do better than this shop, but it is apparently the same as 1118.

As for temperature, I have no idea because I actually don't know what temp the heat pad sits at, but I can tell you it's a BrewCraft heat pad, it's black and plastic, so you may be able to google it and find out

Cheers!


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## pk.sax

dingo34 said:


> Hey mate, I used CL23 champagne yeast, it's from BrewCraft, but I've since been told I can do better than this shop, but it is apparently the same as 1118.
> 
> As for temperature, I have no idea because I actually don't know what temp the heat pad sits at, but I can tell you it's a BrewCraft heat pad, it's black and plastic, so you may be able to google it and find out
> 
> Cheers!



that pad won't hold a certain temperature, it will just add a certain amount of heat to the brews. Its just a heater mate, I know what you are talking about.

Considering that is wine/champagne yeast, you shouldn't be worried anyway. if you have a strip thermo or something handy, put it right between the bottles to get a rough read, even a clinical thermometer would do for that. I'd suggest that if your house is at or above 12 degrees at night, skip the heat pad. If its colder, then by all means  from memory, 1118 starts at 12 degrees and goes to 25C or something!!! as with any brewing, the lower temp - usually the better the result.

PS: good on you for going out swinging on those, I'm sure you will have fun  If you can be bothered, bottle a bit of the cloudy stuff (once its done and finished).


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## dingo34

practicalfool said:


> that pad won't hold a certain temperature, it will just add a certain amount of heat to the brews. Its just a heater mate, I know what you are talking about.
> 
> Considering that is wine/champagne yeast, you shouldn't be worried anyway. if you have a strip thermo or something handy, put it right between the bottles to get a rough read, even a clinical thermometer would do for that. I'd suggest that if your house is at or above 12 degrees at night, skip the heat pad. If its colder, then by all means  from memory, 1118 starts at 12 degrees and goes to 25C or something!!! as with any brewing, the lower temp - usually the better the result.
> 
> PS: good on you for going out swinging on those, I'm sure you will have fun  If you can be bothered, bottle a bit of the cloudy stuff (once its done and finished).



Cheers! Being in Adelaide it hovers sometimes below 12 at night, sometimes a bit above, but our house is very cold at night and first thing in morning.

I guess I have to ask seeing as I have started, when I want to put lid on and put in fridge, i can use my hyrdrometer thingy, straight into the bottle I assume, and see if it is in the 1005-1010 range, and when it's there, then I can add sugar, put on lid, and place in fridge?


----------



## Tanga

* Make sure you dunk it in boiling water beforehand to kill any bugs.
* Wait another week after adding sugar before refrigerating otherwise the cider won't be carbonated.


----------



## pk.sax

My simple suggestion if carbonating in the bottle itself (in the fridge door) - wait for the krausen to die off, i.e. The constant layer of foam maintained by the ferment on top of it to die out to a thinnish layer. Then I say it's ready to cap and stick in fridge door. Remember, fridge doors are designed so that things like butter kept in the door doesn't harden and rather stays soft. My door holds a temp of 10 degrees in the fermenting bottle while the rest of the fridge is pretty cold. Its just about knowing what your fridge is naturally capable of. What works really well for one person might just not work for another. Still, no point in blindly being scared off by a million things said on the Internet that aren't backed up by good reason.

So, whack it in the fridge when the active part of fermentation is over and there would sure be enough sugar left in there to carbonate it without any extra. Of course, you can add more if you really want/need to.
I give it the hard bottle test, if the bottle has gone hard in the fridge I pour myself a drink 

PS: a cider ferments out really dry if you let it. 1010 is really too much. You should be looking at 1.000 - 1.002 fully fermented based on what juice. If it's a 1.010 you can safely cap it And it will carbonate enough without needing more sugar.


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## dingo34

Stupid me, I didn't do a reading before I put the yeast in!! 

But, I did do readings on 3 of the 4.

The three 3 litre bottle
One came up at 1.070
One came up at 1.030
One came up at 1.050

I couldn't do a reading of the cloudy apple juice because the bottle was too small, the meter was hitting the bottom of the bottle

I tell you what though, they are bubbling away all right. The two that did not form frothy bubbles on top are still bubbling away madly. They just look very clean.
Just on the frothy bubbles, with the two that did froth up, most of the froth has gone and there's basically sticky or sludgy type residue...

Now, let me see if I am reading you right...even though they have only been brewing for a couple of days, if I was to keep them in the same bottle, put the lids on, put them in the fridge door, then I just wait for them to go hard?

For my next load of batches, I will brew some on the heat pad, and some not, just to see the difference. I've still got some yeast left, it should still be ok after two days in the fridge (I didn't vaccum seal it though )


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## KudaPucat

Personally I don't like the possibility of a lid popping off, cracking, mess from bottle bursting (or the dange that comes if done in glass) So I would not do it that way.
An alternative is to let it ferment out dry, then add a measured amound of sugar and seal it up. This will stop disaster, and also give an appropriate amount of fizz. 
Too much fizz will alter the taste of the drink significantly.
I also find there's a lot less care needed when doing it this way, and you can store them for months, rather than having to drink it immediately, and cidre does get a lot better - definitely aromatically - after 9 to 12 months.
YMMV though so do as you see fit, the method described will certainly work, it's just less controlled than I would like.

If you want a sweet cidre, you can use a yeast with low tolerance, and let it fully ferment with excess sugar. To carbonate, brew it in a keg with a pressure regulator. then get it VERY cold (0C will do) and bottle, this will save most of the CO2 from escaping.


----------



## dingo34

KudaPucat said:


> Personally I don't like the possibility of a lid popping off, cracking, mess from bottle bursting (or the dange that comes if done in glass) So I would not do it that way.
> An alternative is to let it ferment out dry, then add a measured amound of sugar and seal it up. This will stop disaster, and also give an appropriate amount of fizz.
> Too much fizz will alter the taste of the drink significantly.
> I also find there's a lot less care needed when doing it this way, and you can store them for months, rather than having to drink it immediately, and cidre does get a lot better - definitely aromatically - after 9 to 12 months.
> YMMV though so do as you see fit, the method described will certainly work, it's just less controlled than I would like.
> 
> If you want a sweet cidre, you can use a yeast with low tolerance, and let it fully ferment with excess sugar. To carbonate, brew it in a keg with a pressure regulator. then get it VERY cold (0C will do) and bottle, this will save most of the CO2 from escaping.



So what you are saying is that when the bottle gets hard, it needs to be drunk quite quickly then to prevent explosion?


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## pk.sax

I'll be fair here...

Once I have figured out a combination I want to keep making AND storing I don't make it in the bottle anymore, I put it in a demijohn (4 Ltrs in a 5 Ltr demijohn) and ferment with an airlock or clingwrap/rubberband. Subsequently bottle as normal with a measured amount of juice added back.

wrt being dangerous with lids popping etc... if you refrigerate as suggested, it will be slow enough to be monitored once a day/2 days and be OK. Good part is you taste it as it ages through the week or so it takes to drink it. Letting it ferment dry and then carbonating you will only get one type of cider - ultra dry.

I like to steer clear of artificial sweeteners. So, just retarding it with cold is my fav method, but I won't do it in glass ever, those juice bottles are strong enough though, esp with the big grippy caps.

There are good methods of stopping a ferment midstream, like the low tolerance yeast you mention Kuda, everything involves extra equipment though.

One thing that I also avoid doing with cider that I'm trialling out is oxidation from bottling etc. Drink it fresh from the fermenter bottle  Once you get the ferment schedule etc down pat you can go for a bigger batch and work out the changes you will need to make for a bottled version.

Me, I'd just keep making the in the bottle cider out of that normal heat treated juice off the shelf. Every so often I make some with cloudy juice that I carefully bottle and let age (buy them when its a 2 for $4 sale or something). Those plastic bottles are good for short term storage and thats exactly how I use them. I won't leave them un-refrigerated though.

PS: you will NOT get clear cider brewing and dispensing from the bottle itself. If thats what you want you are most likely going to cold condition and separate off the yeast / filter and carbonate in a second vessel. Personal choice, I like mine cloudy.


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## pk.sax

dingo34 said:


> So what you are saying is that when the bottle gets hard, it needs to be drunk quite quickly then to prevent explosion?


haha... when you take a drink out of it, it will let go of the excess pressure. Cap it and the slow continuous fermentation will carbonate it back up until the next time you open it.



practicalfool said:


> I give it the hard bottle test, if the bottle has gone hard in the fridge I pour myself a drink


----------



## KudaPucat

I concur, however I'm too lazy and don't have enough fridge room. So I invested in some gear so I can 'set and forget'
I am about to buy a chest freezer for my kegs so that they can actually be used as kegs, and so I can use you cold halting method to retain sweetness without the high alcohol levels, and still retain the set and forget. 
I'm yet to buy CO2 or Argon gear though. That'll have to wait.


----------



## manticle

Tanga said:


> * Make sure you dunk it in boiling water beforehand to kill any bugs.



You're not talking about a hydrometer are you? Thin glass tube containing lead balls?

I can tell you from personal experience that hydrometers do not benefit in any way, shape or form from contact with boiling water and I hope I've misunderstood.


----------



## Camo1234

OK guys, I am going to give some ciders a go over the next few weeks, this thread seems to be the happening Cider thread over the last week so thought I would add my intentions on here as well.

I have three spare cubes at the moment (CB FWK Cubes!) so am planning on putting down 3 different 10ltr batches to try some different blends. I have read that Cider gets much, much better with age so the ferment and serve in the same bottle idea isnt what I am after as I want to bottle all these and store for a while.

So I am going to come up with 3 different juice combinations over the weekend but my questions are the following:

1)	I have got some of the Craft Brewer Cider Yeast on its way. How much of the dried yeast would you recommend for each 10 ltr batch?

2)	I have also ordered some yeast nutrient from Craft Brewer Anyone have any advice on how much to add per batch?

3)	I have read that people have used Lactose to sweeten their ciders so I am going to add some Lactose to 2 of the batches and leave the third to be a dry batch.. I read somewhere that someone added 500g to a 20ltr batch would 250g be fine for each of the 10 ltr batches?

4)	Bottling If I leave the batches to ferment right out, will it be safe to bottle in glass or would it be best to go PET? Also for carbonation can I bulk prime in the same way as I do for beer? Ie same dosage of dex?


Cheers guys... Appreciate any advice you can give or any other tips you may have!

Camo.


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## dingo34

So far, it's been a few days, I'm thinking of doing some straight in the fridge without adding any sugar, and some with a little bit of sugar, then waiting a bit before putting in the fridge. But I will do all of them in the same bottles as the juice came in.

Practical Fool, I have noticed the cloudiness of all my juices, but that doesn't bother me, I can drink it cloudy or not, i just want it to taste good 

I do have another question, what do you mean when you say 'when it has fermented dry'?

Tanga,
I checked out the Oztops website...they look cool...it says to make sure the juice has no preservatives, but what other names can they come by...for example, is food acid330, vitamin (300), or flavour 150d any of these preservatives?

As I have mentioned before, two of my juices did not froth up, where as the other two did, one has settled, while the other (the cloudy juice) is still got a bit of froth...what does it mean if the other two have not frothed at all (bear in mind though they are bubbling away quite a lot though is if they are like carbonated soft drink once you open the lid)?

cheers
dingo


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## seamad

fermented dry is fermented to completion, I have got to 998 with some ciders. this produces a very dry cider unlike commercial dry ciders
cheers
sean


----------



## Tanga

manticle said:


> You're not talking about a hydrometer are you? Thin glass tube containing lead balls?
> 
> I can tell you from personal experience that hydrometers do not benefit in any way, shape or form from contact with boiling water and I hope I've misunderstood.



I've never had any problems, but you may be right. So then he should just make sure it's clean.




Camo1234 said:


> OK guys, I am going to give some ciders a go over the next few weeks, this thread seems to be the happening Cider thread over the last week so thought I would add my intentions on here as well.
> 
> I have three spare cubes at t :icon_vomit: he moment (CB FWK Cubes!) so am planning on putting down 3 different 10ltr batches to try some different blends…. I have read that Cider gets much, much better with age so the ferment and serve in the same bottle idea isn’t what I am after as I want to bottle all these and store for a while.
> 
> So I am going to come up with 3 different juice combinations over the weekend but my questions are the following:
> 
> 1)	I have got some of the Craft Brewer Cider Yeast on its way. How much of the dried yeast would you recommend for each 10 ltr batch?



About 5-6 grams. But if you want to divide the yeast for a full batch (usually 12g dry) into 1/3s then that should be OK.



> 2)	I have also ordered some yeast nutrient from Craft Brewer… Anyone have any advice on how much to add per batch?



No idea, I don't usually use it, but again do your calculations and use slightly less than half the amount recommended for a full fermenter. You can probably get away with 1/3 of a full dose if that's the size of the packets. I haven't had a stuck ferment yet and I never use nutrient.



> 3)	I have read that people have used Lactose to sweeten their ciders so I am going to add some Lactose to 2 of the batches and leave the third to be a dry batch….. I read somewhere that someone added 500g to a 20ltr batch… would 250g be fine for each of the 10 ltr batches?
> 
> 4)	Bottling – If I leave the batches to ferment right out, will it be safe to bottle in glass or would it be best to go PET? Also for carbonation can I bulk prime in the same way as I do for beer? Ie same dosage of dex?



No problems bottling into glass. Cider bottles are no more likely to explode than beer. Just test the FG the same way you would for beer, but expect a lower FG. About 0 (same as for water) when using juice. Bulk priming works the same way, add the same amount as for one.of the spritzier beers.




> Cheers guys... Appreciate any advice you can give or any other tips you may have!
> 
> Camo.



Welcome to the non-beer section. Hopefully one of the quality cider guys pops back in here to convert you to real juice brewing, but until then this is fun and easy. Good-luck!


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## manticle

Tanga said:


> I've never had any problems, but you may be right. So then he should just make sure it's clean.




My first ever post on this forum: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...ic=26165&hl=

Just either spray with starsan or better still buy a sample tube.


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## KudaPucat

I dunk mine in a Sodium Metabisulphate solution. I rinse all my gear in the same thing.

The most common preservative used in juices is Sodium Metabisulphate. (or maybe Potassium, but practically they're the same thing)
To find a preservative fee juice look for "No added preservatives" in juice with no preservatives, the marketing dept thinks it's a great idea to make certain you know, so it's pretty easy like that.

If your juices aren't foaming, this could be one of MANY things.
Factors that reduce foaming with no ill effect:

Yeast
Temperature
Type of juice
Sugar types
Sugar concentration
Pressure
Surface tension
Speed of ferment
Fermentation already concluded/slowed

factors that reduce foaming with ill effect:

preservative. 
your yeast are dead

Law of averages says your fine. If you're worried take a hydrometer sample. if you see it dropping, you're all good.
If you don't have a hydrometer, whack your bottle on the kitchen scales. You should see the weight decreasing over time.


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## Tanga

Not disagreeing that it's potentially bad. I must have been lucky. I've lost 3 hydrometers to gravity and none to the expansion of hot gases.

Dingo old mate,
Investing in one of the above mentioned hydrometers is the best thing you can do if you want to start brewing big batches or repeating results. If you just want to play with small batches then Oztops are a safety release valve for keeping the lid on and pressure in the bottle (makes the cider ferment faster). The two yeasts provided - 1118 (blue) and d47 (orange) are pretty forgiving of temperature fluctuations.

The froth on top of the brew (called the krausen) doesn't really tell you how far the ferment has come. But if you get good bubbles for 4 or 5 days then you are ready to start refrigerating and tasting once a day until you like the flavour. If you measure the gravity at this stage with a hydrometer then we can more easily make a recipe for a larger brew.

Most preservative-free juice will say it is preservative-free on the bottle. None of what you mentioned will be a problem. No krausen (but bubbles) like you're seeing doesn't mean the juice won't ferment.


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## dingo34

Tanga said:


> Not disagreeing that it's potentially bad. I must have been lucky. I've lost 3 hydrometers to gravity and none to the expansion of hot gases.
> 
> Dingo old mate,
> Investing in one of the above mentioned hydrometers is the best thing you can do if you want to start brewing big batches or repeating results. If you just want to play with small batches then Oztops are a safety release valve for keeping the lid on and pressure in the bottle (makes the cider ferment faster). The two yeasts provided - 1118 (blue) and d47 (orange) are pretty forgiving of temperature fluctuations.
> 
> The froth on top of the brew (called the krausen) doesn't really tell you how far the ferment has come. But if you get good bubbles for 4 or 5 days then you are ready to start refrigerating and tasting once a day until you like the flavour. If you measure the gravity at this stage with a hydrometer then we can more easily make a recipe for a larger brew.
> 
> Most preservative-free juice will say it is preservative-free on the bottle. None of what you mentioned will be a problem. No krausen (but bubbles) like you're seeing doesn't mean the juice won't ferment.



Hi Tanga,
I do have a hydrometer, actually posted up the readings from yesterday in this thread. It seems I have to wait more though, the readings are still very high. As I started with the bottles on the heatpad, I have decided to leave them there until it finishes, but the next batch of bottles I buy I will not use the heatpad. I did a search on the yeast I am using CL23 and it can go as low as 8C, so I think I should be safe without the heatpad.

I finally got round to reading other posts on cider making in this forum, been doing it for the last two hours and have learned a lot. Everyone seems to have their own ways of doing things, but essentially, I think the idea is to get the reading down to as close to 1.000 as possible, and then place lid on and put in fridge. It seems as though it should take at least a week if not two to get to the fridging stage, but my only concern is the fact that it is on a heatpad, whether it will happen a lot quicker.

All things said and done, I want the cider to have at least 4-5% alcohol, if not a bit more, I'm not too concerned if it's not too carbonated or not, though a few bubbles would be better than none. As for sweetness, I'll experiment with some of the stuff I have read, plus your idea about pear juice etc. But for the first batch, yeah, I'm really wanting to make sure I get the 'process' right by way of fermenting and then fridging and then drinking 

Cheers
Dingo


----------



## Tanga

Don't forget that last step (the drinking). It's _very_ important. =p

Oops, yeah, I missed your post with the readings. Sorry. Yeah, I think about 1030 is the stage you want to start tasting. When you find the 'sweet-spot' we can start guestimating how much lactose to add to a brew for you.

The reason I suggest this way (you've probably read about it already) is that, unless you're going to keg it's impossible (well, very difficult, especially with bought juice) to only partially ferment the natural fruit sugars (fructose and glucose) in juice. So your best bet is to replace some of those sugars with lactose (another sugar) which doesn't ferment (so is safe to leave in the brew). This way you can bottle your brew, and just the right amount of fermentable sugar for bubbles and have a sweet result.


----------



## dingo34

Tanga said:


> Don't forget that last step (the drinking). It's _very_ important. =p
> 
> Oops, yeah, I missed your post with the readings. Sorry. Yeah, I think about 1030 is the stage you want to start tasting. When you find the 'sweet-spot' we can start guestimating how much lactose to add to a brew for you.
> 
> The reason I suggest this way (you've probably read about it already) is that, unless you're going to keg it's impossible (well, very difficult, especially with bought juice) to only partially ferment the natural fruit sugars (fructose and glucose) in juice. So your best bet is to replace some of those sugars with lactose (another sugar) which doesn't ferment (so is safe to leave in the brew). This way you can bottle your brew, and just the right amount of fermentable sugar for bubbles and have a sweet result.



Yeah, I actually quite like the idea of just using the bottles. It seems real easy, and if I can get something tasting half decent, I'll continue to use it. I think one of the primary reasons I kept start/stopping brewing in large quantities was all the cleaning involved. 

As for sweetness, I noticed several options, and you first off said Pear Juice in the initial stage (1/3 to 2/3)...which one do you get? I was in Coles today and could only find a 1litre Glass jar of it for almost $5. 

What about Honey?

So do you add the lactose at the 2nd stage, when you put it in the fridge?


----------



## dingo34

practicalfool said:


> My simple suggestion if carbonating in the bottle itself (in the fridge door) - wait for the krausen to die off, i.e. The constant layer of foam maintained by the ferment on top of it to die out to a thinnish layer. Then I say it's ready to cap and stick in fridge door. Remember, fridge doors are designed so that things like butter kept in the door doesn't harden and rather stays soft. My door holds a temp of 10 degrees in the fermenting bottle while the rest of the fridge is pretty cold. Its just about knowing what your fridge is naturally capable of. What works really well for one person might just not work for another. Still, no point in blindly being scared off by a million things said on the Internet that aren't backed up by good reason.
> 
> So, whack it in the fridge when the active part of fermentation is over and there would sure be enough sugar left in there to carbonate it without any extra. Of course, you can add more if you really want/need to.
> I give it the hard bottle test, if the bottle has gone hard in the fridge I pour myself a drink
> 
> PS: a cider ferments out really dry if you let it. 1010 is really too much. You should be looking at 1.000 - 1.002 fully fermented based on what juice. If it's a 1.010 you can safely cap it And it will carbonate enough without needing more sugar.



I just tried out the fridge door with a themometer and it's at 3C Yikes! So I then tested the shelf, again 3C. Looks like my fridge door is not warmer BUGGER!


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## dingo34

Ok, so I decided to get down and dirty...

I went to Coles and bought the same batches of Juice again (but they were out of the Cloudy; bugger!)

I took some out of each and did a hydrometer test on all of them for the OG

Coles Home Brand Apple Juice 1042
Coles Home Brand Apple & BlackCurrent 1044
Just Juice Apple Juice 1046

Now, I then tested all the ones I have been fermenting since tuesday night.

But I decided to pour a little into the test tube to do the reading rather than straight into the bottle

Coles Home Brand Apple Juice 1006 (OG 1042)
Coles Home Brand Apple & BlackCurrent 1022 (OG 1044)
Just Juice Apple Juice 1006 (OG 1046)
Cloudy 1022

It's funny because the ones that did not froth up are the ones that have done the most as per hydro readings.

I decided to then drink each of the test samples and I could definitely taste more sweetness in the ones reading 1022 than to those reading 1006. (hooly dooly feeling it a bit already kung pow!)

Is anyone surprised at how quick the two have gone from 1042-6 to 1006 in only 3 days?

Oh, and doing the OG --> FG formula, does that mean my two quickest brews are already at almost 5%?


----------



## Tanga

dingo34 said:


> Yeah, I actually quite like the idea of just using the bottles. It seems real easy, and if I can get something tasting half decent, I'll continue to use it. I think one of the primary reasons I kept start/stopping brewing in large quantities was all the cleaning involved.
> 
> As for sweetness, I noticed several options, and you first off said Pear Juice in the initial stage (1/3 to 2/3)...which one do you get? I was in Coles today and could only find a 1litre Glass jar of it for almost $5.
> 
> What about Honey?
> 
> So do you add the lactose at the 2nd stage, when you put it in the fridge?



Honey will ferment out also, so I don't recommend using that.

You add the lactose at the beginning (try 40g in a 2L bottle of juice, or 50g in 2.4L bottle (minus the cup of juice you take out), in the next batch you can add/subtract to your taste. I bought homebrand 50/50 apple/pear juice - $3 for 3L and used equal amounts of it and apple juice in my 5L demijohn (from memory - I think that's what I did - made up to 25% anyway). So your best bet will be to keep an eye out for the apple and pear juice and make it up in that bottle. Easy, and should be about the right sweetness (mine was still a little dry).

EDIT: Yeah, that's pretty quick. They must have been warm. Got any sulphur flavours? Try the blackcurrent when it's done. It is like pear in that it will still taste a little sweet even when it's done. I can't remember which - either golden circle, or just juice, but one of the black current and apple juices is much higher than all the other ones. I recommend that. It makes a pinker, sweeter (not overly by any means) cider.


----------



## dingo34

Tanga said:


> Honey will ferment out also, so I don't recommend using that.
> 
> You add the lactose at the beginning (try 40g in a 2L bottle of juice, or 50g in 2.4L bottle (minus the cup of juice you take out), in the next batch you can add/subtract to your taste. I bought homebrand 50/50 apple/pear juice - $3 for 3L and used equal amounts of it and apple juice in my 5L demijohn (from memory - I think that's what I did - made up to 25% anyway). So your best bet will be to keep an eye out for the apple and pear juice and make it up in that bottle. Easy, and should be about the right sweetness (mine was still a little dry).
> 
> EDIT: Yeah, that's pretty quick. They must have been warm. Got any sulphur flavours? Try the blackcurrent when it's done. It is like pear in that it will still taste a little sweet even when it's done. I can't remember which - either golden circle, or just juice, but one of the black current and apple juices is much higher than all the other ones. I recommend that. It makes a pinker, sweeter (not overly by any means) cider.



Not sure, what's a sulphur flavour, is that like the dreaded home brew taste that you never taste in commercial alcohol?


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## KudaPucat

Tanga said:


> Honey will ferment out also, so I don't recommend using that.



Depends how much you have...
I have a cyser that conked out at 1.005 at the moment.
But that did require a fair bit of honey. 

I've heard of healthy ferments as quick as 24 hrs. It depends on how healthy and well fed the yeast was. 
I suspected your inactive batches had fermented mostly before you even looked. 
My first mead was like this. I repitched, added food did all sorts of things before measuring it and finding it was already done.


----------



## Tanga

KudaPucat said:


> Depends how much you have...
> I have a cyser that conked out at 1.005 at the moment.
> But that did require a fair bit of honey.
> 
> I've heard of healthy ferments as quick as 24 hrs. It depends on how healthy and well fed the yeast was.
> I suspected your inactive batches had fermented mostly before you even looked.
> My first mead was like this. I repitched, added food did all sorts of things before measuring it and finding it was already done.



Wow, nice. Quick mead. I'm jealous.

I figured enough honey to sweeten a cider, even with an ale yeast, would be a bit pricey at this stage. Plus 1118 has a bad rep. Though I have a recipe for a delish apple and blackcurrent cyser if anyone's interested.


----------



## dingo34

KudaPucat said:


> Depends how much you have...
> I have a cyser that conked out at 1.005 at the moment.
> But that did require a fair bit of honey.
> 
> I've heard of healthy ferments as quick as 24 hrs. It depends on how healthy and well fed the yeast was.
> I suspected your inactive batches had fermented mostly before you even looked.
> My first mead was like this. I repitched, added food did all sorts of things before measuring it and finding it was already done.



So, the thing for me now is to wait 3 days and if the level is the same (1006) then lid it and put in fridge...is this correct?
But if it has dropped more, to say 1002 or 1000, then leave for another 3 days and test again...I'm reading that this idea is for it to stay at the same level for 3 days..then it's ready for the lid and fridge


----------



## Tanga

If you want to fridge now you can. Especially if you're not adding sugar and priming.


----------



## pk.sax

hehe.. that cloudy takes its time sometimes.... too bad ur fridge is too cold, guess I just got lucky

I bottle my cloudy btw, and make it in a carboy for the slightly extended ferment it enjoys.... Still, those bottles are meant to keep the juice fresh for a while and are grade 2 plastic, same as fermenters so shouldn't be too bad. Most people don't even try the cloudy cuz it doesn't look like bottle shop cider - and more expensive, but it is worth it if u develop a taste for it, closest you get to pressing your own.

btw, I've done pear once it did retain some sweetness, I think it stopped at 1.004 for me when I did that one. Did it in a carboy since I had to mix juices up. I didn't find it worth the hassle to bottle though so I just started doing the ferment in bottle apple juice and refrigerate to retard again. The cleaning does drive you nuts with carboys, fermenters n all.

re - Sanitising, get starsan, its good. I stuffed around for a while but the ease of using starsan is just a winner. Alternatively, in a pinch, check out a decent pharmacy for hydrogen peroxide. You will have to ask them for it and it comes in pissy 50 ml bottles, but you dilute it, just like you dilute starsan and it is very effective, neutral and no-rinse. I'm sure if you ask someone will tell you the dilution, I don't have my bottle on me anymore. The pharmacy sells 3% H2O2 as far as I remember, not the most cost effective though but for those stuck out in the middle of nowhere and not ordering a bunch of stuff to make postal orders worth it.... brew shops also sometimes sell it as copper tun hydrogen peroxide etc.. A little cheaper in that packaging than the pharmacy. Great thing about H2O2 is that it will never ever contaminate your brew AND it kills yeast, incl wild yeast so its useful to keep as a secondary no-rinse sanitiser. If I am paranoid about cross introducing yeasts between brews I spray with the H2O2 rather than starsan, which I heard is even a nutrient for yeast.
The other sanitiser I like is just plain old sodium percarbonate, its cheap, its not no-rinse but it loosens mild stains due to being an oxidiser but doens't create detergent like foam like napisan does. I've also stuck a load of bottles into the dishwasher on its highest heat setting (85-90C) and used the bottles straight after with no issues, some people bake their bottles... wait.. I'm gettign wayyyy :icon_offtopic:

PS: I hope ur enjoying a few drinks from those bottles by now  its bn long enough by my count. hehe.

:icon_offtopic: PPS: Kuda - I got kegs recently too, waiting on my gas bottles to turn up... then the next paycheck.. then a chest freezer/fridge or something.. then stuff, then time to actually brew again, haha.
I've got to take a pic of all the kegging gear I scored off a guy that quit brewing, 3 kegs, 1 normal 2 gauge regulator, 1 three gauge regulator (to dispense two kegs at a time), unused pluto gun, flexmaster line, beer tap to fix on fridge, steel drip tray to mount on fridge, some coopers buckets, fermenter, keg disconnects, line, hydro etc.. for 320 bucks. Even found some spare keg lid seals in the lot. Gumtree ftw


----------



## dingo34

practicalfool said:


> hehe.. that cloudy takes its time sometimes.... too bad ur fridge is too cold, guess I just got lucky



Well, I have finally put two in the fridge.
I did the readings today again (since yesterday) because it looked like they had stopped bubbling, and the two that were at 1006 yesterday are now at 1000-1002, so I put on the lids and stuck em in the fridge...

so, what to expect now? If I have this right, the remaining sugar in the juice (if there is any), will be what carbonates it, but I am not to expect too much by way of carbonation, not that it worries me at all. If the bottle gets hard, to open the lid, maybe pour a drink, but the main thing is to let some gas out, yes?

The fact is, I can really drink it when I like now hey? Having tasted them at room temperature, I am looking forward to tasting them chilled.

I just want to thank everyone for their input. This idea has really grown on me and I'm looking forward to exploring the possibilities

Cheeeers



> Don't forget that last step (the drinking). It's very important. =p



You bet


----------



## Tanga

dingo34 said:


> Well, I have finally put two in the fridge.
> I did the readings today again (since yesterday) because it looked like they had stopped bubbling, and the two that were at 1006 yesterday are now at 1000-1002, so I put on the lids and stuck em in the fridge...
> 
> so, what to expect now? If I have this right, the remaining sugar in the juice (if there is any), will be what carbonates it, but I am not to expect too much by way of carbonation, not that it worries me at all. If the bottle gets hard, to open the lid, maybe pour a drink, but the main thing is to let some gas out, yes?
> 
> The fact is, I can really drink it when I like now hey? Having tasted them at room temperature, I am looking forward to tasting them chilled.
> 
> I just want to thank everyone for their input. This idea has really grown on me and I'm looking forward to exploring the possibilities
> 
> Cheeeers
> 
> 
> 
> You bet



Yup, every thing you wrote there is correct. You've got the idea now =).


----------



## dingo34

practicalfool said:


> hehe.. that cloudy takes its time sometimes.... too bad ur fridge is too cold, guess I just got lucky
> 
> I bottle my cloudy btw, and make it in a carboy for the slightly extended ferment it enjoys.... Still, those bottles are meant to keep the juice fresh for a while and are grade 2 plastic, same as fermenters so shouldn't be too bad. Most people don't even try the cloudy cuz it doesn't look like bottle shop cider - and more expensive, but it is worth it if u develop a taste for it, closest you get to pressing your own.



I have PET bottles, will they do the trick?


----------



## pk.sax

> I have PET bottles, will they do the trick?


don't see why not.. keeping 3-4 months (my recommendation for cider), absolutely surely yes.

By the way, this brew in the bottle and cabonating in same bottle is just that, to get you past the basics of finding out what it tastes like at stages and how it ferments (fast/slow etc...). Just use your observations to tune it your way and now that you would know exactly what is lacking/good, you can ask more pointed meaningful questions on how to fix something if ur stuck.

Also, if you really fermented them out to 1000-1002, don't expect it to carbonate much by itself..... is why I said start refridgerating when it stops frothing/vigorously releasing bubbles. If you want that to fizz up, add a little sugar/fresh juice to the bottle. But, I'll be honest, my cider frm the bottle whose cap cracked (cheapo bottle, my mistake) tastes beautiful with low fizz, a bit chilled.

Cost SFA apart from juice and yeast to make it 

I just had an idea, next time I'll start a ferment 4 days before I go camping and then stick the bottle in my car fridge for the trip. That fridge only brings stuff down 15C from ambient, so I can expect cider  Gotta find a good strong bottle (and Cap) to do this in.


----------



## Tanga

Coke bottle is your best bet for that. Those things are made for high pressure. The Berri Apple and blackcurrant are ohmyfuckinggod brilliant like that. Plus the pink colour looks cool. Popular with the ladies, and while the blokes may pay you out they aren't slow to hold their glass out for a refill either.


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## pk.sax

Tanga said:


> Coke bottle is your best bet for that. Those things are made for high pressure. The Berri Apple and blackcurrant are ohmyfuckinggod brilliant like that. Plus the pink colour looks cool. Popular with the ladies, and while the blokes may pay you out they aren't slow to hold their glass out for a refill either.



hehe.. bn thinking that... might even help trap some yeast in the bottom... note - remember to buy coke (ew...) at the supermarket.


----------



## MHB

Have recently been reading up on Keeving, and found this website. The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal The downloadable "Science of Cidermaking" is about the best free reference I have ever seen. Have just ordered a couple of copies of the book (yes I like old fashioned books).

Well worth reading

MHB


----------



## Greg.L

MHB said:


> Have recently been reading up on Keeving, and found this website. The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal The downloadable "Science of Cidermaking" is about the best free reference I have ever seen. Have just ordered a couple of copies of the book (yes I like old fashioned books).
> 
> Well worth reading
> 
> MHB



Ha! this is a funny thread to mention Andrew Lea and keeving! He advocates slow, cool ferments with fresh juice from bittersweet cider apples, and wild yeast. This thread is about quick ferments of supermarket juice in a coke bottle. The only thing in common is they're both apple juice.

Andrews site is very good, but a lot of it is for cool climates where apples are harvested very late.


----------



## Tanga

IPA (supermarket) have quite a few juice specials at the moment. $2.99 for 2.4L, so not the cheapest for specials, but not bad. My eye was drawn by the Cranberry and Apple. If the special's still on this weekend I know what my next experiment will be.=)

Not sure what other supermarkets are doing, but usually they compete, so keep your eyes open.


----------



## KudaPucat

dingo34 said:


> Not sure, what's a sulphur flavour, is that like the dreaded home brew taste that you never taste in commercial alcohol?


It's like the nasty flavour you get from some natural springs. It smells of fire and brimstone. Or like rotten eggs in its gaseous form. 
You'll know the smell. Some cars with a broken catalytic converter will belch this out too.


----------



## pk.sax

I'm yet to make a cider that hasn't thrown off sulphur smells. A minute in the glass and it dissipates. I'm never concerned because it tastes right and I haven't added anything but yeast to the juice, so it can't be some nasty synthetic chemical.
It also goes away with bottling and some ageing. If it was a lingering pungent smell I'd be concerned but a bit of natural sulphur odour goes away in the time taken to click my fingers.


----------



## KudaPucat

practicalfool said:


> I'm yet to make a cider that hasn't thrown off sulphur smells. A minute in the glass and it dissipates. I'm never concerned because it tastes right and I haven't added anything but yeast to the juice, so it can't be some nasty synthetic chemical.
> It also goes away with bottling and some ageing. If it was a lingering pungent smell I'd be concerned but a bit of natural sulphur odour goes away in the time taken to click my fingers.


Yep, that's right.
If you get a big sulphur smell though it pays to take note.
Also it shows that your yeast are stressed/hungry, so the addition of nutrients will assist in a better brew at this point.
Run a test some time, add 4-6 raisins per litre in one of your batches, and see if it's smelly at all... I find sulphur smells to be inconsistant, so have never run this kind of test, but if you ALWAYS get a sulphur smell, try it, and see if the smell goes away. That few raisins will not flavour the brew noticeably. I'd be interested to see how good they are as a nitrogen source.
Happy yeast make for a quicker ferment, and less fusels and 'hot' flavours.


----------



## dingo34

ok, taste tests and update so far.

The two apple juices (3 litre bottles) don't really have much flavour, they taste like a poorly made cordial.

The cloudy however, I quite like this one.

The apple and black current has yet to go in fridge, will do so when I can make room (that is polish off one of the others)...

I also noticed that both of the apple juices have not gone hard, or there seems to be no pressure building at all, where as the cloudy, that seemed to pressurize within a day or two

cheers


----------



## pk.sax

dingo34 said:


> ok, taste tests and update so far.
> 
> The two apple juices (3 litre bottles) don't really have much flavour, they taste like a poorly made cordial.
> 
> The cloudy however, I quite like this one.
> 
> The apple and black current has yet to go in fridge, will do so when I can make room (that is polish off one of the others)...
> 
> I also noticed that both of the apple juices have not gone hard, or there seems to be no pressure building at all, where as the cloudy, that seemed to pressurize within a day or two
> 
> cheers



Mate, I'm guessing that cloudy is in the fridge and still going hard... yep, that always has leftover sugars to ferment slowly unless you leave it alone for a month or so, its actually the only supermarket juice cider I find worth bottling. Kinda self regulated. Glad you like it 
With the other ones, you get what you make. Fermented to almost dry that juice was not going to retain a lot of flavour. Its why I let it be a sweet cider by chilling it before it finishes. My suggestion, mix with some fresh apple juice in the glass to drink, it would be cider (alcohol) + fresh juice flavour.

PS: I forgot to mention before, even though the temp in the fridge door might be 3C, the yeast will push it up a little, that wine yeast is really tough, it ferments at even really low temp, slower but does keep doing it.

PPS: Mark, thats an awesome read. Not sure I'll ever be arsed to work that hard for cider but gonna pick something easy up to better mine


----------



## Hatchy

I kegged a cider tonight that finished at 1.002 which is the same as my hydrometer is reading water at the moment. I put 18L of apple & blackcurrent juice on the yeastcake because they didn't have apple & pear juice at the local. I'm hoping that turns out well or I'll get months of "I told you so" from my wife.


----------



## dingo34

practicalfool said:


> Mate, I'm guessing that cloudy is in the fridge and still going hard... yep, that always has leftover sugars to ferment slowly unless you leave it alone for a month or so, its actually the only supermarket juice cider I find worth bottling. Kinda self regulated. Glad you like it
> With the other ones, you get what you make. Fermented to almost dry that juice was not going to retain a lot of flavour. Its why I let it be a sweet cider by chilling it before it finishes. My suggestion, mix with some fresh apple juice in the glass to drink, it would be cider (alcohol) + fresh juice flavour.
> 
> PS: I forgot to mention before, even though the temp in the fridge door might be 3C, the yeast will push it up a little, that wine yeast is really tough, it ferments at even really low temp, slower but does keep doing it.
> 
> PPS: Mark, thats an awesome read. Not sure I'll ever be arsed to work that hard for cider but gonna pick something easy up to better mine



Sure is..and yes it's well tasty!!! 

I've learnt a lot about the sugars etc. I can see now what has happened between the straight apple juices and the A&B, as I have put the lid on the Apple Blackcurrent and already it's blowing out like Michelin Man.

I find it just fascinating the dynamics between the yeast, time, natural sugars etc. 

I will try my next batch in the fridge early, I've actually turned it down (meaning fridge temp up) a bit, this time of year it doesn't need to be sitting at 3C


----------



## Tanga

Hatchy said:


> I kegged a cider tonight that finished at 1.002 which is the same as my hydrometer is reading water at the moment. I put 18L of apple & blackcurrent juice on the yeastcake because they didn't have apple & pear juice at the local. I'm hoping that turns out well or I'll get months of "I told you so" from my wife.




If you Keg then you can keep some residual sugars if you want. Keg it at 1010 for a delicious drop with a hint of sweetness. I'm jealous, I can only do that 2L at a time.

Oh, and I just found my oztops caps =D. So this juice thing will be a lot easier from now on.


----------



## Hatchy

I could if I remembered to check it more often. I think I'll just chuck 2L of juice in there at some point for some sweetness assuming it doesn't get drunk 1st.


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## Tanga

LOL, or you could do that. Let us know what you and the crew think. For a pink drink this one is pretty popular with the bloke as well.


----------



## dingo34

an update and a question.

I did what was suggested, before the yeast had completely finished, I stuck a couple of bottles in the fridge (a week at room temp - then placed the lid on and straight in the fridge) and about 1 1/2 weeks later cracked one open and it was bloody beautiful...my missus wanted to fight me for the bottle!! only kidding! The taste was spot on, a little bubbly..GIDDY UP!

So, I'm all pumped up and I go out and buy 7 bottles of mixed apple juices...but then I made a big boo boo

I bought 3 * 2L Cloudy apple juice, and not checking back to Tanga's original post, I put 1/2 tsp of yeast in each, instead of 1/4!!!

So, now I have three 2L bottles each with 1/2 tsp yeast, and as such could only manage to get 1/4 tsp in each of the other 4, which are 3L.

So, my question(s) is/are....what to do? Will the cloudy's still be ok even though they have twice as much yeast? What about the 3L bottles, they really need 3/8 tsp, but instead only have 1/4 (1/3 of what they should have)..will it be enough, or should I go get more yeast and top up? And if so, does it matter when I do that?

Cheers


----------



## Tanga

dingo34 said:


> an update and a question.
> 
> I did what was suggested, before the yeast had completely finished, I stuck a couple of bottles in the fridge (a week at room temp - then placed the lid on and straight in the fridge) and about 1 1/2 weeks later cracked one open and it was bloody beautiful...my missus wanted to fight me for the bottle!! only kidding! The taste was spot on, a little bubbly..GIDDY UP!
> 
> So, I'm all pumped up and I go out and buy 7 bottles of mixed apple juices...but then I made a big boo boo
> 
> I bought 3 * 2L Cloudy apple juice, and not checking back to Tanga's original post, I put 1/2 tsp of yeast in each, instead of 1/4!!!
> 
> So, now I have three 2L bottles each with 1/2 tsp yeast, and as such could only manage to get 1/4 tsp in each of the other 4, which are 3L.
> 
> So, my question(s) is/are....what to do? Will the cloudy's still be ok even though they have twice as much yeast? What about the 3L bottles, they really need 3/8 tsp, but instead only have 1/4 (1/3 of what they should have)..will it be enough, or should I go get more yeast and top up? And if so, does it matter when I do that?
> 
> Cheers



Don't sweat it, have another homebrew =). The cloudy apples will be fine, so will the others, but they may take a bit longer to get started. More yeast won't hurt though.

What mixed juices? Just a warning tropical and apple juices don't turn out real well. Passionfruit and mango ones both ended up all fruity lexia tasting. Best so far is apple and blackcurrant. Let us know how yours go.


----------



## pk.sax

I've had had a bottle of juice ferment without adding yeast. h34r:

Hehe, I was making some cloudy in a carboy and cracked open a normal one to take a cup of juice to carb the cloudy. Absent mindedly, I capped the bottle and stuck it in a cool dark cupboard. A week - week 1/2 later I'm looking for something in the cupboard and notice the swollen bottle!!!!!

Cracked it open, had a smell, taste, liked it so I stuck it in the fridge. That one was an instant hit. Quite honestly that is how I came about brewing in the juice bottle without modifying it at all. I just keep a closer watch on them than leave in cupboard and forget, n I add the yeast now, just to be sure 

So, drink up n chillax 

Btw, mixt be worth brewing only so many bottles as you can drink in a week to keep it sorta fresh


----------



## Tanga

Just checked the juice section at Coles. Turns out they have two different kinds of apple and blackcurrant. One is 5%, but the cloudy apple is on special atm, so I'm going with that. Looking forward to it.=)


----------



## dingo34

Cloudy apple is so nice..thanks for putting me on to that.
As for how much I can drink in a week, well, ummm, yeah, ummm, hmmmm, can't answer that really  

I am finding, I can get a cloudy on the brewmat, leave for 4 days, put in fridge and later that day or next day, is ready to drink...and it's real nice....

The Apple and Blackcurrent was nice too, not as nice as the cloudy for me..and my missus really liked the straight apple, but not the first couple (which fermented dry), I put the second lot in the fridge a bit early and they fizzed up nice..she loved them!

I'm going to go to woolies at some point and try out the apple and pear.

So far
Cloudy 10 points
Apple 8 points as long as it gets lid on early enough
Apple Black current 6 points
Apple if left to go dry...3 points

Yum!!!


----------



## seamad

I've made a few ciders and would like to stop the next one @ 1010 to retain a little sweetness.
My keg fridge fits 3 kegs and I don't really want a keg of cider , would prefer to bottle as we don't drink cider that often.
I think I have a cunning plan..

If I dropped the temp of ferment to -4 or more ( I ferment in a small upright freezer) when close to 1010 and leave a few days would that kill the wee yeasties?. My plan would then be to force carbonate in a keg and transfer to bottles.

Would this work ?

cheers
sean


----------



## Tanga

... maybe. Sounds good. I'm not a kegger. Sorry. I know theoretically that should happen. But if your yeast misbehaves I don't want to be held responsible =).

While this thread is up though. Berri juice is 1.99 atm (2.4L) @ Coles. So 22L for $18. Not going to get much better than that.


----------



## pk.sax

seamad said:


> I've made a few ciders and would like to stop the next one @ 1010 to retain a little sweetness.
> My keg fridge fits 3 kegs and I don't really want a keg of cider , would prefer to bottle as we don't drink cider that often.
> I think I have a cunning plan..
> 
> If I dropped the temp of ferment to -4 or more ( I ferment in a small upright freezer) when close to 1010 and leave a few days would that kill the wee yeasties?. My plan would then be to force carbonate in a keg and transfer to bottles.
> 
> Would this work ?
> 
> cheers
> sean



Why don't you brew a small batch, 1-2 juice bottles worth and bottle just that @ ~1014 or so and refridgerate the bottles in the keg fridge.
I'm really not sure about freezing yeast. I pretty much froze a batch of beer once to clear it up and the yeast still survived enough to carb it up. The only options I've heard of that will kill yeast are pasteurization, using SO2 releasing chemicals and --maybeeeee ultra filtration of some sort.... Apart from that, bottle and keep cold. Even then, I'd be more comfortable bottling unfinished stuff in PET or steel.


----------



## dingo34

Tanga said:


> ... maybe. Sounds good. I'm not a kegger. Sorry. I know theoretically that should happen. But if your yeast misbehaves I don't want to be held responsible =).
> 
> While this thread is up though. Berri juice is 1.99 atm (2.4L) @ Coles. So 22L for $18. Not going to get much better than that.



Thx Tanga..

were you the one who said you were going to try apple and mango? did you and how was it?


----------



## Tanga

dingo34 said:


> Thx Tanga..
> 
> were you the one who said you were going to try apple and mango? did you and how was it?



Fuggin awful! It ended up tasting like fruity lexia. Drinkable, sorta, but more of a cheap and nasty wine than a cider. Passionfruit was the same. They may have aged alright, probably should have bottled rather than chucked them, but I doubt it was going to end up much better.

If you want to try something different then grape was fun. Not a fine wine by any means, no tannins etc, but I carbonated it in the bottle, like for cider, and it went great in Sangria (my intention) or even serve with ice to wine drinkers with no taste (ie lambrusco drinkers). =p


----------



## KudaPucat

FYI
Coles have berri 2.4l at $1.99 at the moment
I bought 3 bottles to try cos I'm out of cider from last year's harvest already.


----------



## Tanga

Look forward to seeing what you do. Which juices did you grab?


----------



## KudaPucat

Tanga said:


> Look forward to seeing what you do. Which juices did you grab?


Just apple, I will lightly flavour 2 of the three with real in-season fruit.

I've never used commercial juice before, so a bit of an experiment.


----------



## dingo34

I think I may have left my bottles on the heat pad a bit too long and they have fermented dry...the reason I reckon this is because I've had the lids on and in the fridge for over at least a couple of days now but there doesn't seem to be any carbonation, nor are the bottle getting hard. 

I was wondering, even though I have put the lids on two days ago, can I still add some sugar now, or is it too late...I'd like to get some fizzy in them, even if just a bit...

Cheers


----------



## Tanga

No probs at all doing that dingo. Better yet, add juice, but sugar will get the job done. It'll work better if it's been dissolved in a little hot water first (don't add it until it's cooled though).


----------



## dingo34

Tanga said:


> No probs at all doing that dingo. Better yet, add juice, but sugar will get the job done. It'll work better if it's been dissolved in a little hot water first (don't add it until it's cooled though).



Cheers Tanga,
Well it's official now, on the heatpad, any longer than 4 days and they ferment dry. My second batch I think I took them off the heatpad and put them in the fridge after just 3 days and nights...they all came out nice with some fizz.

This time, I had 4 bottles on the heatpad, and 4 bottles just on the floor, I let the ones on the floor ferment for 6 days and i put the lids on this morning and already, especially the cloudy ones, are bloating out like no ones business....i reckon on the heat pad 3 days, on the floor, 6 days, and perfect!


----------



## pk.sax

dingo34 said:


> Cheers Tanga,
> Well it's official now, on the heatpad, any longer than 4 days and they ferment dry. My second batch I think I took them off the heatpad and put them in the fridge after just 3 days and nights...they all came out nice with some fizz.
> 
> This time, I had 4 bottles on the heatpad, and 4 bottles just on the floor, I let the ones on the floor ferment for 6 days and i put the lids on this morning and already, especially the cloudy ones, are bloating out like no ones business....i reckon on the heat pad 3 days, on the floor, 6 days, and perfect!



Or you could come live up here in qld and they will bloat, heat pad or not like it's nobody's business 
I refrigerated a bottle today, extra juicy - that's the juice with the tough bottle lids  was on sale, ~ 2.5 days outside, now in the fridge. It's already bloated twice in the damn fridge in 1 evening. I suppose I'll just pour myself one tonight to increase head space


----------



## KudaPucat

KudaPucat said:


> Just apple, I will lightly flavour 2 of the three with real in-season fruit.
> 
> I've never used commercial juice before, so a bit of an experiment.



Ok ended up trying a quick cyser recipe. 
1kg honey
4 litres juice
K1v1116
Boiled K1 for nutrient
1/2 tsp of tannin

Will add 1/2 tsp DAP when lag is over
Recipe says to cold crash at 1.017 and stabilise, and wait for it to clear. 

I'll let you know, perhaps in it's own thread. 
Using non cloudy juice is not ideal for this. Fresh pressed apples would be best
But it's meant to be ready and drinkable as quickly as a JAO so perhaps juice is better, and there won't be much that will need ageing out.


----------



## pk.sax

10 days since I stuck that bottle in the fridge, the fermentation has finally slowed off. It's not blowing up anymore.

That will go to show how hard that wine yeast works even at cold temperatures. Fermentation in the fridge does throw up slight sulphur which dissipates as soon as you pour a glass. In fact, with temp controlled ferments of cider at ~18C sulphur odours are still a problem, but it dies out in the bottle with a little aging. Ferment in bottle in fridge just generally creates less sulphur odour as the yeast is a bit less stressed in it's initial phase. At least, that's what I've noticed. My cloudy ciders brewed in carboys threw massive sulphur fits even with additions of nutrients and all. If there are esters because of the warmer initial ferment, then I guess they must be quite palatable  I don't detect any harshness - not very practiced in sensing that though.


----------



## manticle

I rarely/never notice sulphur smells with my ciders. The only time was when I tried using potassium metabisulphite (never again). The egginess hung around the finished product for aeons.

I ferment between 10 and 14 so maybe that makes a difference. Have used white wine yeast, 4766 and currently a sweet mead yeast from Wyeast.


----------



## pk.sax

Crap, that rules it out for me ATM then. Temp control is an issue here, best I'll come up with in the space ive got is ice packs in can cooler. I might give the next juice bottle a go at fermenting straight away in the fridge as soon as it kicks off. It will take forever but meh.... 

btw, that bottle of cider you gave me is still in melb.... Waiting for me to go down again, maturing... haha. I had the beer before I came though, it was great. I really love hallertau, it's such a non offensive hop.


----------



## manticle

Let me know when you're down. Might have a bottle of the recent sweet mead yeast cider for you. Ordered some malic acid and tannic acid which may find its way into this one or the next.


----------



## pk.sax

Will do 

PS: I gave golani &reg; a carboy full of slow fermented US05 cider, then aged on it's lees for a few months. Give that fatso a kick for me and tell him to bottle and share


----------



## pk.sax

This is after quite some time fermenting at cold fridge temperature. Pretty clear actually, turning the bottle around in front of the light stirred it a up a little but the yeasts have taken to sit on the bottom quite happily now.

Refreshing bite, but some fruity esters from the warm ferment it had in the first 2 days. Altogether, goes down a treat. Usually I don't let it last this long and drink it a little darker.. with some sugars still in there. THIS is quite pale.


----------



## pk.sax

I'm coming to the conclusion that spending money on yeast for brew in a bottle cider is wasted money.

Just polished off a naturally fermented juice bottle cider, bright, clear and tasty (within reason for a LL juice cider). And no a granule of yeast added by hand. Poured out a bit into another container fo a cyser, lidded the leftover and left it where I could see it out of direct sunlight. 1 day for it to take off, rather nice flavour, chilled 2 days and all the east dropped out and stayed stuck to the bottom while I poured.


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## Miro73

Hi guys i just fermented my first 5L jug of Cyder (Bilpen cloudy apple). I fermented it out around 999 using lavlin 1118 wine yeast. i just gave it a taste before bottling, it tastes a lot like Chardonnay. Whilst i don't mind this i was hoping to keep some of the apple flavors rather than tasting like wine. 

1. Is this because i fermented it out.
2. the type of yeast i used.
3. Will the flavor change when i bottle it and carbonate.
This is my first brew sorry if i have missed the answer to my questions in the previous posts.
Cheers miro


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## pk.sax

3. Is correct.

Let it age a few months. The flavours develop over time. In fact, at a month or two from mow, you might taste passionfruit. Then another month later it'd be gone.

Shortcut is always to mix in glass with fresh juice if ur not keen on aging/waiting.


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## Miro73

Thanx Pract i am patient and will wait, looking forward to tasting it though lol. Maybe crack one for xmas. I guess id better try a large batch soon.


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## sillyboybrybry

Okay guys,
First post ever - and I am trying to brew some cider in bottles straight from the shop. I read as a far in the thread as the ghetto instructions on how to make it and now have 6 bottles of different combinations of apple and mango juice. I even have one straight mango which was only 25% real juice so added sugar to see what happens!
I have since read further and discovered that apple and mango is not the ideal combo but hey it is all in the name of science isn't it?
Will keep you posted!


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## lukasfab

I got these two juices to give this cider a go, 6 pages and no pics so thought i would add


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## GalBrew

So what yeast do people prefer to use? I fermented my last batch with 4766 at 18degC and while it fermented out quite quickly and super dry, I was left with a slight funky yeast aroma in the finished cider even after the yeast flocced out. Is this a part of using 4766 or was a fermenting a touch hot? It's not an issue from my point of view, but you know the ladies...etc. I notice people are using a variety of ale yeasts, what do people use to get a super clean finish?

:beer:


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## manticle

I like 4766 but I also like to ferment ciders cool - around 12-14.

Recently used cru-05 with good results which I believe is a red wine dry yeast (although I also added the dregs of a funky french cider and I like funky and dry)


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## Airgead

I've used 4766 before and it does get a bit funky if you ferment hot. It prefers a slow, cold fermentation. I seem to recall fermenting at around 13-14 degrees.

Cheers
Dave


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## BPH87

How long does it take for 4766 to ferment out?

I was going to give 4184 a go to retain some of the residual sugars.........

Anyone used this yeast yet?

Cheers

Ben


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## BPH87

I intend to keg, so was going to back sweeten if needed.

Also I was thinking of racking onto some frozen raspberries/lime (brewing for some girls who like bloody rekorderlig) will this be ok? I will cold crash to stop any more fermentation.

Cheers Ben


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## manticle

Is 4184 the sweet mead yeast? It will still ferment cider dry - it is sweet for meads because they tend to have a higher OG and the sweet mead yeast is a low attenuator..

I used the sweet mead with the same intentions as you - still 1.000. I liked the results though.


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## BPH87

manticle said:


> Is 4184 the sweet mead yeast? It will still ferment cider dry - it is sweet for meads because they tend to have a higher OG and the sweet mead yeast is a low attenuator..
> 
> I used the sweet mead with the same intentions as you - still 1.000. I liked the results though.



Did it finish dry????

Edit: Yes it is Sweet Mead yeast


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