# Top Cropping Yeasts



## Stuffa (1/2/09)

It's the first time I've used a top cropping yeast, Wyeast 3638 Bavarian Wheat. Just a quick question if all the yeast ends up on the top, when bottling do you skim all the yeast of the top first? Usually I just make sure I don't disturb the yeast/sediment on the bottom when getting the last out of the fermenter.
What do you do?

Cheers Chris


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## mika (1/2/09)

It'll drop to the bottom (mostly), just treat it as any other ale. You might want to do some further research on 'top cropping' yeasts.


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## buttersd70 (1/2/09)

I use true top croppers most of the time (most notably 1469 west yorkshire). What I do is top skim it just prior to transfer to secondary. Then proceed as normal. So in my case, I top skim, transfer to secondary for a day or 2, then crash chill and fine (but obviously with a wheat, you might want it to be cloudy, in which case you wouldn't fine it. But you know what I mean.). Best harvested yeast you will ever have, _completely _free of trub, clean and pure.

The only add on to this, is that i have found with top cropped yeast (a opposed to getting yeast off the bottom after fermentation is fully, 100% done and dusted), is that you will need to vent the bottle you put it into for the next few days, because it might continue to have a wee bit of activity left in it....and you don't want farmed gushers on your hands.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/2/09)

Even full tilt top croppers will settle to the bottom after crash chilling - or on their own after long enough. When its truly done and dusted, whack it in the fridge and wait a few days. If you use a secondary like buttters.. then you either do exactly as he suggests, or you can transfer out from under the top cake (carefully) instead of skimming.

The weizen yeast will drop on its own though, don't even need to crash it.


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## buttersd70 (2/2/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Even full tilt top croppers will settle to the bottom after crash chilling - or on their own after long enough. When its truly done and dusted, whack it in the fridge and wait a few days. ....



Yep, 'tis true. I recently did a double, with 1469, and because of the size of my fridge, I had one in a fermenter, and one in a cube...so I couldn't top skim the cube one even if I'd wanted to. I got a bit lazy with this brew and didn't go to secondary, either, just crash chilled. Even the big strong beefy 1469 dropped out, no problem at all.


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## Acasta (31/8/10)

Firing up an old thread here but:
When top cropping, how would i store the yeast? with some sterile water in a sterile jar?


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## under (31/8/10)

Wheres Butters??


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## manticle (31/8/10)

Acasta said:


> Firing up an old thread here but:
> When top cropping, how would i store the yeast? with some sterile water in a sterile jar?



That'll be fine. When you want to use it, take it out of the fridge and let it warm up near room temp. I just use sanitised longnecks with boiled water which are capped with a crown seal. I fill the longnecks about halfway with the water.


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## Acasta (31/8/10)

It seems weird to me, just bottling the foam... Does it settle back out into yeast cake in the bottom of the bottle? This seems like a good way to get healthy yeast for next batch.


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## manticle (31/8/10)

That foam is the thickest healthiest, creamiest yeast you can imagine. Stick it in a bottle and refrigerate and it will settle to a layer at the bottom. As soon as you scoop some you will see the same thing that you see at the bottom of the fermenter after fermentation but nicer looking with no bits of hop etc. Give it a go.


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## RdeVjun (31/8/10)

Indeed, top- cropped yeast is extremely concentrated and also quite vigorous, just half a cup of it in the next batch and it goes completely berserk within hours (strain- dependant I presume). Thoroughly recommended for simple and reliable pitching, it would have to be the easiest method for a liquid yeast strain that I know of. Of course it helps if you need to pitch regularly though (using the same strain of course), if you're pitching two batches a week (or at least over one) it can continue almost indefinitely, plus it costs nothing!
Having said that, there may eventually be some drift in the strain's characteristics after several top crops as it selects the upwardly- mobile, however I've not noticed any great differences with several 1469s after more than half a dozen batches, I just occasionally reset it from a fresh slant to be sure.

I don't know though if it settles Acasta, I've not stored top- cropped yeast like that, sounds like it from what manticle relates. If I had to, I'd prefer this to harvesting slurry.


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## O'Henry (31/8/10)

I have looked everywhere for info on 'true' top croppers that are widely available. I know Dr K posted something about it more than a year ago, but can never find it. If someone has more luck, please post here! (or anywhere for that matter)


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## manticle (31/8/10)

Settles out just like any other yeast - seeing as it's yeast I guess.

I haven't top cropped for a while but my next brew should be an ESB with one or another UK yeasts so I'll be getting into it again soon. How good is marris otter with 500g crystal and the right yeast?

O'Henry - from memory, wyeast distinguish if the yeasts are true TC although to my mind if it throws krausen, you can harvest it. Probably a pain to look through every description of WY (and then WL and then Proculture and the brewlab) but I guess start with the obvious - UK yeasts and maybe some Belgian and weizen yeasts.

I did just find this page which might help: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/list-top-...-needed-173641/


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## Nick JD (31/8/10)

With some belgian yeasts I top crop from the bottom. 

That makes no sense.

Because the FG is reached with a healthy krausen still on top of the brew I bottle the fecker and then also bottle a slurp of the krausen as it glugs down the tap. 

Mmmmmm, esters.


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## O'Henry (31/8/10)

manticle said:


> Settles out just like any other yeast - seeing as it's yeast I guess.
> 
> I haven't top cropped for a while but my next brew should be an ESB with one or another UK yeasts so I'll be getting into it again soon. How good is marris otter with 500g crystal and the right yeast?
> 
> ...




That was the vibe of the thread, then Dr K and Butters came in and said not all top fermenting yeasts are true top croppers, such as US05 which is best taken from the bottom as that is how it was developed. Shame Butters and Dr K are so rarely on here...

Thanks for the link though!


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## manticle (31/8/10)

Unfortunately I just read the link more thoroughly and it fails to go anywhere.. I wouldn't top crop 05 as I generally don't re-use dried yeasts.

Yeasts that I do know are top croppers (or I have successfully top cropped) include:

Wy london ale III
Wy 1099
Wy 3068 (presumably 3638 acts similarly but I haven't used it)
Wy 1272
Wy ringwood (1187?)
Wy 3787
Wy 1007

There's probably a few more in my fridge I've forgotten. Maybe we should start a list here? I believe Kolsch yeasts are meant to be good TC yeasts too. Also whatever WR are using is supposedly a TC yeast if my memory serves me correctly.

My understanding of True top croppers is yeasts that will form a huge krausen towards the finish of fermentation rather than floc out - something people sometimes look askance at. Even 1056 does that from time to time.


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## pk.sax (31/8/10)

thick krausen.. hmnn.... enlighten me please, my first semi-extract brew here, I have a sort of dense looking chocolate cofee coloured yeast layer on top of the beer. I did boil up the kit (coopers blonde) + 1.5 kilo liquid wheat extract up. using US05, just keep hearing so many good things about it, but you say don't top crop a dry yeast, ?? why not if its any good? Well, I'm just curious thats all, this brew, the yeast is looking so content and stable on top of the beer that I do feel like saving some, is that chocolate coloured yeast OK? (or relatedly, am I brewing something vile, possibly!)


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## manticle (31/8/10)

I said I don't re-use dry yeast - mainly because it's cheap but also because bacteria levels in dry yeast might be slightly higher. That wouldn't stop me from having a go and I suggest you do but the only times I've had manky yeast from re-used stuff was from US05. 

Non scientific - maybe means nothing and my experience only. Have a go. You have nothing to lose if you make a starter and smell/taste it first with some fresh yeast as a reserve back up when you brew.


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## pk.sax (31/8/10)

cool, prolly safe your way too, since its cheap for dried yeast anyway and then when I made my starter to clean out the extract can the yeast took to it like dogs kept hungry for a week, straight out of the fridge too.. so I do get the 'whats the point'. Just wanted to keep a sample in the fridge for those Sundays when Pete closes his shop in boronia and I remember I have everything on hand but.... gah. thnx again.


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## drsmurto (31/8/10)

WY1469 is a true top cropper, here's a pic of the last top crop i did. Scooped out with a sanitised ladle and rinsed into the bottle with some boiled, cooled water. Photo was taken a few minutes after cropping. It flocced out quickly to form a nice compact layer just shy of 100mL. Pure as the driven snow.

I made the mistake of throwing some top cropped yeast into a starter after it had been in the fridge for 3 weeks. I tend to make starters after 2 weeks with yeastcakes etc just to check viability and get them on their way but within 10 mins of making the starter (300mL in a 2L flask) it had spewed out the top. Active little bugger.

Have been fortunate enough to have several long chats to Butters over a few pints about top cropping. And yes, Butters is still alive.


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## matr (31/8/10)

I just top cropped a pro culture P10 Sierra ale yeast. Huge krausen. Didn't even settle out at FG.


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## Bribie G (31/8/10)

Slightly off topic, but if you have a genuine top cropper then try your utmost to harvest the top yeast, not the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter. I've done an experiment (another thread) doing a double batch of beer with the bulk of the cold break going into one fermenter, and the rest of the wort with hardly any cold break going into the other.
After primary, the layer of slurry on the bottom of the cold-break fermenter was easily twice as thick as the other one, leading to the conclusion that so called yeast cake is really "settled out shyte cake that happens to contain a bit of yeast"
From now on if saving ale yeast I'll be doing it from the krausen.


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## Acasta (31/8/10)

BribieG said:


> From now on if saving ale yeast I'll be doing it from the krausen.


Only the top cropping ones? 

Seems like some good info is being passed around. Good to learn a new thing or two. Disappointingly i already was racking this brew off then i thought of it, so i got some top crop and a bit of slurry, but no biggie, ill try clean it and pitch it again getting the top crop properly next time.


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## np1962 (1/9/10)

DrSmurto said:


> And yes, Butters is still alive.


 :icon_drunk: Most of the time! :lol:


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## mje1980 (1/9/10)

Hmmm i m gunna give this a go with thames valley 2 next time i use it. Sounds like a good idea.


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## hazard (1/9/10)

BribieG said:


> Slightly off topic, but if you have a genuine top cropper then try your utmost to harvest the top yeast, not the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter. I've done an experiment (another thread) doing a double batch of beer with the bulk of the cold break going into one fermenter, and the rest of the wort with hardly any cold break going into the other.
> After primary, the layer of slurry on the bottom of the cold-break fermenter was easily twice as thick as the other one, leading to the conclusion that so called yeast cake is really "settled out shyte cake that happens to contain a bit of yeast"
> From now on if saving ale yeast I'll be doing it from the krausen.


And that is why I always harvest slurry from a secondary fermenter - I can't remember where I read this trick but I know I didn't make it up myself. My process is:
1. Leave in primary for 2 weeks.
2. Rack to another fermenter, chill for 1 week to make sure its really clear
3. Rack to bottling bucket and bottle
4. Collect clean slurry from secondary

Works for me. I don't fine any more, because I was getting gelatin in the yeast that i wanted to harvest. A week in the fridge and beer is nice and clear anyway, haven't noticed a big improvement from fining (well with gelatin anyway).


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## Bribie G (1/9/10)

hazard said:


> And that is why I always harvest slurry from a secondary fermenter - I can't remember where I read this trick but I know I didn't make it up myself. My process is:
> 1. Leave in primary for 2 weeks.
> 2. Rack to another fermenter, chill for 1 week to make sure its really clear
> 3. Rack to bottling bucket and bottle
> ...



Excellent idea, as the unwanted break material and any hops etc will be left in the primary vessel, and cloudiness in the secondary would be just about pure yeast cells swimming around and doing their thing. I've not done that so far as I was worried about possible infections because the green beer has been 'double handled' but I guess at the end of the day if the beer tastes good on kegging or bottling then the yeast is good as well. :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (1/9/10)

BribieG said:


> Excellent idea, as the unwanted break material and any hops etc will be left in the primary vessel, and cloudiness in the secondary would be just about pure yeast cells swimming around and doing their thing. I've not done that so far as I was worried about possible infections because the green beer has been 'double handled' but I guess at the end of the day if the beer tastes good on kegging or bottling then the yeast is good as well. :icon_cheers:




Using yest from secondary isnt always the best practise as they are less flocculant.


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## Bribie G (1/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> Using yest from secondary isnt always the best practise as they are less flocculant.



So are you saying that by re using this yeast you are selecting for cells that like to float as opposed to clump and sink, and the strain can quickly 'drift'?


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## felten (1/9/10)

BribieG said:


> So are you saying that by re using this yeast you are selecting for cells that like to float as opposed to clump and sink, and the strain can quickly 'drift'?



That seems to be the general consensus. Here is a good read (if you haven't already), http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-yeast-harvest.cfm


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## reviled (1/9/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Butters is still alive.



Whats that bloke doing with himself these days? Still madly obsessed with brewing a perfect english ale?


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## Bribie G (1/9/10)

reviled said:


> Whats that bloke doing with himself these days? Still madly obsessed with brewing a perfect english ale?


Last time I was in contact with him he was working shiftwork in a factory - I hope he's not making Holdens........nooooooooooooooooo......... and didn't have much time for brewing, I'd love him back on the forum. And Chappo <_<


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## WarmBeer (1/9/10)

BribieG said:


> ... And Chappo...


What happened to the "worst most prodigious poster". Burn out from posting too much?


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## np1962 (1/9/10)

reviled said:


> Whats that bloke doing with himself these days? Still madly obsessed with brewing a perfect english ale?


Has now finished night shift and is easing back into normallity. Obsessed/obsessive as usual! :icon_cheers:


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## mje1980 (4/3/11)

Just cropped a stout fermented with 1469, first gen. Thick creamy mousse like yeast!. Hope to keep in the fridge for a week, then brew a bitter, or something similar. Do i need to add cooled boiled water? or can i just leave it as the thick creamy yeast??


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## beerbrewer76543 (4/3/11)

Hmm does anyone have any good ideas on how to top crop out of a 25L water drum (cube) fermenter?

edit: cube


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## manticle (4/3/11)

You just need a spoon that will fit the opening. A large table spoon, clean and sanitised, will do the trick.


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## beerbrewer76543 (4/3/11)

Scoop scoop scoop into a jar or other suitable vessel?


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## manticle (4/3/11)

Yes. Top with cooled boiled water, seal and refrigerate or scoop straight into a waiting appropriate style wort.


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## goatherder (4/3/11)

I can confirm that 3638 is a top cropper, I'm drinking the results as I type.


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## Thirsty Boy (6/3/11)

If you are top cropping your yeast for re-pitching purposes... Then whether the yeast is amtrue top cropper or not makes very little difference at all. You shouldn't be waiting for FG to take your crop for pitching, you should be doing it more or less as the yeast is at high krausen.

Basically you discard the first or "brown" yeast heads, you will know what they are, brown scum mixed in with the foam (its hop goo and coldbreak mostly) - thats if you are skimming it off anyway, just ignore it till it goes away if you aren't. Then when the yeast is in vigorous growth phase, with creamy white heads... THEN you take your crop of yeast for re-pitching. Store it in the fridge under sterile water or pitch it directly to your next batch. After that anything else yu do in your main fermentation is just about your preferred method of clarification.

Using this sort of yeast, cropped at it most healthy and vigarous, is why english breweries are able to serially re-pitch their yeast so many times without horrible strain drift, infection and changes in the yeast's brewing properties. Whereas if you crop from the bottom, or after the yeast has finished fermenting, you are more likely to only be able to do 8-10 re-pitches before things start to noticably change about your fermentations and beer. You will also notice a BIG difference in the performance of the yeast... If bottom cropped yeast is David Banner - then top cropped yeast is what happens when you make him angry.

This works pretty much the same way for ALL strains, not just top cropping ones.

TB


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## mje1980 (6/3/11)

TB, im brewing a stout, so it was brown, 2 days after pitching is when i spooned it out. It was like mousse, and i checked it the next day, the stuff settled under the water looks light tan in colour. Have i just grapped a heap of shit, instead of good yeast cream??. Might keep some slurry anyway in case.


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## Thirsty Boy (6/3/11)

It almost certainly mostly yeast - if not, the yeast you have gotten will be perfectly good, just maybe you grabbed a bit of gunk as well thats all.

Only you can tell really. They yeast will carry to the surface all kinds of gunk for the first day or so, then most of that gunk will stick to the sides of the fermenter or eventually fall to the bottom. So, it will start out dirty, then get cleaner. If it was cleaner when you took the crop... You got the good stuff. If it gets cleaner and cleaner... Just take some more and discard the first lot. Its only experience that will tell you.

An open, easy to open or see through fermenter lid will help a lot with this stuff.

BTW - i am mostly parroting stuff from books here. I've done this a few times, but dont brew beers with the same yeast in a row very often, so haven't got much in the way of practical experience. It is very solid book learnin' though. Nothing controversial in it.


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## mje1980 (6/3/11)

I grabbed some more today, which is certainly lighter. Though i think the first lot should be ok. I made sure i got a good cup's worth, so im guessing/hoping the amount i got will make up for crap stuff. Its the first beer made with a fresh smack pack, so should be good. I brewed a TTL inspired ale today so i'll get it in there within a few days. Will update. 

Might have to look into one of these books. 

Thanks mate, much appreciated


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## mje1980 (9/3/11)

I used the original sample and pitched it into a TTL style ale. A few hours and it was foaming!!. Faaark this is bloody easy. Just need some more open mouth jars!!. Took some off the TTL style ale ( took like 3 days to get to almost done ) just now, and it was like a cake, so thick haha. A bloody good idea.


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## davo4772 (10/3/11)

Hello All,

How long could the yeast be kept in the fridge under sterile water? I would guess no more than a couple of weeks?


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## adryargument (10/3/11)

2-3 weeks i believe, just started farming myself, however you can mix them with antifreeze and place them in the freezer for upto a year.
Every year you just need to cultivate a new started and refreeze.



david72 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> How long could the yeast be kept in the fridge under sterile water? I would guess no more than a couple of weeks?


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## Eater (10/3/11)

I certainly wouldnt want an angry David Banner in my fermenter....


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## Wolfy (10/3/11)

david72 said:


> How long could the yeast be kept in the fridge under sterile water? I would guess no more than a couple of weeks?


If you are going to repitch the yeast without making a starter, its best to use it as soon as possible, no more than a week or two from when it was harvested.
However, if you are going to make a starter, the yeast can be stored like that for a much longer period of time, 6 months is a resonable period of time, but there will still be some yeast viable after 12 months.


adryargument said:


> 2-3 weeks i believe, just started farming myself, however you can mix them with antifreeze and place them in the freezer for upto a year.
> Every year you just need to cultivate a new started and refreeze.


Storing yeast samples in the bottle or under water can easily last 6 months and up to 12.
Using slants/slopes is also a good way to store yeast in the fridge.
If you want to freeze yeast you need to ensure that the freezing process does not rupture the cells, most often this is done by the addition of glycerin.
Once successfully frozen, yeast samples should remain viable for a long period of time, much longer than 12 months.


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## beerbrewer76543 (10/3/11)

:icon_offtopic: Every time I see this thread "Top Cropping Yeasts" I think of the Beastie Boys song "Block Rockin Beats"





edit: make pic work


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## Lecterfan (22/3/11)

OK, so it's old news to many people, but I just top cropped my first 1469 from a TTLL type recipe. First of all the smell was amazing (pitched on Sunday lunchtime-ish), thick and creamy head of krausen, skimmed, waited then skimmed from the new yeast layer. I felt like putting it in a desert bowl, chopping in some strawberries and hooking into it.


In fact the amount I have will probably be overpitching for 23L of 1.048...now where are my chocolate sprinkles?


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## bullsneck (6/6/11)

I'm doing a 23L LCBA on Saturday, then a 12L American Stout on Monday. How much top cropped yeast do I need so that I can pitch the right amount of yeast, as in cell count etc?


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## argon (6/6/11)

bullsneck said:


> I'm doing a 23L LCBA on Saturday, then a 12L American Stout on Monday. How much top cropped yeast do I need so that I can pitch the right amount of yeast, as in cell count etc?



What's your OG of the American Stout? 

Go to Mr Malty and plug in your figures and look at the "Repitching from Slurry" window. when top cropping your taking pure yeast and if done correctly picking up nothing else. So when i do the figures i set a thick slurry and 0% non-yeast %... as below;




So assuming you you've got 12L of 1050 you'll need about 26mL of top cropped yeast.


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## mje1980 (22/8/11)

Just top cropped some fresh 2565 from a koelsh, nice tan mousse!!!. Love top cropping!!


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## argon (22/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> Just top cropped some fresh 2565 from a koelsh, nice tan mousse!!!. Love top cropping!!



I know... i just rinsed a yeast cake over the weekend. Freakin' tipping cooled boiled water from jar to jar over a few hours. PITA. 
Top crop straight into cooled boiled water into sterile jars is too easy.


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## manticle (22/8/11)

Top cropping straight into another waiting brew is even easier.


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## argon (22/8/11)

manticle said:


> Top cropping straight into another waiting brew is even easier.


Surely is.... But I never have confidence in myself that I've harvested enough. That is until the foam starts to jump out of the fermented inside 12hours! Always looks like not enough, but I guess because it's so pure it's right.


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## RdeVjun (22/8/11)

12 hours, argon? Oh my, you must've had a sluggish one!  
Around here a generous 1469 top crop is away in a new wort within few hours, definitely bulging the cling film overnight, in fact to the extent that I wonder about overpitching, but the results have been quite OK. Saves all the rinsing caper too, that certainly has its place, but if you're happy to coordinate several batches to use the same strain one after another it makes pitching all but the first one a real breeze. B) 
No- chill and cheap big green shed fermenters have been a real boon for this process too. :beerbang:


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## mje1980 (1/4/12)

Anyone got a list of which UK strains are good for top cropping? I know most of them are, just looking for a few different strains, so when i buy a few more, they are all good top croppers. 1318 seems like a good one. I've used 1469 too, but its not always available. Just got past a run of infections, so want to get back to having a fridge full of sweet sweet UK ale yeasties!!


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## Midnight Brew (1/4/12)

You can top crop any strain but the true top croppers for the *UK strains* are

WLP022 Essex
WLP023 Burton Ale
WLP038 Manchester
WLP033 East Midlands
Wyeast 1187 Ringwood Ale
Wyeast 1318 London Ale III
Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire Ale


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## tazman1967 (14/9/13)

My Brett farmhouse ale is going nuts.. high krausen in 3 hours.. h34r:
Yeast is Brett Trios..
Ive just skimmed the scummy layer off.
Chad Yakobson in his BN interview recommends Brett be stored at Room temps eg. 18-20d.
My question is.. can you top crop a Brett and storage ?


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