# Grain Bill For A Gernam Pils



## agraham (2/9/05)

I was wondering what grain bill you folks would recommend for an all grain German Pilsner. I was thinking 5 kg of Pils malt with 2-500 grams of Munich for color and maltyness.

Thoughts?


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## MAH (2/9/05)

I personally go with just 100% pils malt. Lots of people advocate the addition of Carapils, but I don't understand why when you're trying to make a dry beer you would want to add any form of crystal malt. An all-grain beer even made with just pils malt should have no problems with head retention and if you want added body then just mash at a bit higher temperature.

Your suggestion of using 200-500gms of Munich would also make for a nice pils.

Cheers
MAH


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## Malnourished (2/9/05)

MAH said:


> I personally go with just 100% pils malt...
> [post="75092"][/post]​


Seconded! German pils malt to be more specific. It gives heaps of malt flavour on its own in my experience.


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## agraham (2/9/05)

I was gonna use Powells malt, bought and crushed from Grain and Grape...

As I am new to brewing this will only be my 6th brew, and second all grain. I am happy to use the cheaper grains while i am still learning, however i dont want to end up with a poor beer if the powells malt is really that poor in quality.

Cheers,

Andrew


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## MAH (2/9/05)

Powells mlat will be fine, but my preference is for Weyermann Pils.

The grain bill will not be the big determinig factor for your beer, IMHO the selection of yeast and fermentation regime will have the biggest impact, followed by hop selection and schedule.

What yeast and hops are you going to use?

Cheers
MAH


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## pint of lager (2/9/05)

6th brew and 2nd all grain.

Go to it! 

100% pilsner malt, simple and easy recipe. Don't think just because it is an easy recipe that it is only beginners stuff. Am heading towards my 100th ag brew, and one of the recent batches was 100% Weyermann pilsner malt with all saaz hops.


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## agraham (2/9/05)

Thanks for the encouragement!

I will be using Tetnanger hops and Wyeast munich lager yeast.

Might also use Norther Brewer just for the bittering, havnt decided yet.

I have to wait till I have a spare fermentor beofre i can brew this one.

Fermentation will be:
-In primary until it has nearly reached final gravity
-Rack to secondary and lager at 10c in bathtub of water for 2-3 weeks
-Bottle and enjoy!

Cheers,

Andrew


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## JasonY (2/9/05)

MAH said:


> I personally go with just 100% pils malt.



Gotta agree, I am drinking one with 100% weyermann pils, tetnanger hops & Euorpoean lager yeast. Best lager I have managed to make, unfortunately the keg is emptying fast.


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## warrenlw63 (2/9/05)

I've got a German Pils on tap ATM. Has Tettnanger as late and final additions.

Personally I don't care for it. Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Saaz etc. always seem to be better choices. The Tettnanger seems too grassy/vegetal. 

Second 100% Pils Malt too. I've got a bit of CaraPils in it too. Seems to make the body a little too flabby.

Warren -


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## Malnourished (2/9/05)

agraham said:


> I will be using Tetnanger hops and Wyeast munich lager yeast.
> [post="75105"][/post]​


Not that I'm trying to completely ruin your plans, but I'd be careful with that yeast. I've never used it but it has a reputation for being very finicky. I would think you'd want to pitch real big, ferment cold, diacetyl rest, lager a long time blah blah blah. That said, it's supposed to make real good beer so you might as well go for it.

And I'm with Warren on the Tettnang too - seems more suited to ales to me, though I've used it for FWH/bittering in a few lagers of late.


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## Green Iguana (2/9/05)

I am assuming that you will be fermenting the primary between 10-14C, when you reach 3/4 toward final gravity, a brief rest at 18-20C for 48 hours to clear up any diacetyl/off flavours really helps. This is especially important if you pitch warm in the primary then cool to ferment temp. Lagering should be at as close to 0 C as you can maintain, 10 C sounds too close to primary ferment temps and would not really 'lager' the beer at all. 

Cheers


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## Green Iguana (2/9/05)

I would also have to agree with the comments about using carapils. My pilsner brews that used carapils all seemed a bit 'full'. However they did have grate head in the glass. I would use no more than 200g of carapils if you must, however substituting for 200g of light munich would be a better option for head retention/colour/malt profile.....

Cheers


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## AndrewQLD (2/9/05)

Green Iguana said:


> I would also have to agree with the comments about using carapils. My pilsner brews that used carapils all seemed a bit 'full'. However they did have grate head in the glass. I would use no more than 200g of carapils if you must, however substituting for 200g of light munich would be a better option for head retention/colour/malt profile.....
> 
> Cheers
> [post="75115"][/post]​



Cara pils in a pilsner is really a big no-no, a good pils is malty but DRY and is not cloying and sweet. And as POL says simple is the best, 100% pilsner malt and all Saaz, and I will add, you need to LAGER a good Pils, the difference between conditioning for a few weeks and lagering for a couple of months is astounding, the complexity of the malt and hops blends to a smooth, dry slightly bitter brew with wonderful hop aroma and flavour that sort of mingles. I think I am getting a little excited here :huh: . What I am trying to say is, a 1 malt, 1 hop(with several additions) beer is a thing of beauty, and when you get it right, you will know it.
sorry about all that.
Andrew


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## SJW (3/9/05)

ANDREW, Your excited, its 8.12am and I am getting excited too. I never thought I would feel like a Pilsner at this hour of the day.
But "agraham" for what s worth if your going to the trouble of doing a nice AG pils dont be a tight wad and use Northern brewer. Spend the extra $5 and go big load of Saaz r a good noble hop. Or even first wort hop. Its worth the effort.

STEPHEN


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## agraham (3/9/05)

I will see what the guys at G&G think, as i think saaz hops leans away from a german style pils...not that i would complain.

Thanks for all the help lads. Time to go and get some supplies.


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## neonmeate (3/9/05)

i like tettnang! especially for aroma. my first AG pils, and still my best, was pretty similar to wha you're planning. it had all weyermann pils with 200g munich, + 200g acidulated for pH, with northern brewer for bittering, tettnang for aroma and mittelfrh FWH.
but you have to find what hops you like. muck around with combinations.


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## Lindsay Dive (3/9/05)

Andrew,

I notice with interest that you say that the addition of Cara Pils is a big no no in a Pilsner.

I always use 5% Weyermenn Cara Pils in all my Pilsners. This is a recommendation by Weyerman for 1. Foam Improvement, 2. Improved head retention and 3. Fuller body in Pilsners and Lagers. 
Weyermann also state that you can use as much as up to 40% in a beer.
With their Cara Pils having an EBC of 3 - 5, I can't see a problem.

I reckon it's great stuff and I personally would NOT brew a Pilsner without it! 

http://www.weyermann.de/eng/index.asp?sprache=2


Regards,
Lindsay.


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## tdh (3/9/05)

CaraPils a no no in Pilsner?

5% in a German, Bohemian or CAP is what it's designed for.

I would also add a few % of Melanoidin for a hint of complexity and malt aroma but keep usage within the colour range of a typical Pils (I assume you use Promash etc.).

tdh
(commercial CAP brewer)


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## AndrewQLD (3/9/05)

Hi Lindsay,
the reason I think (and it is only my opinion) that carapils is a big no no is this.
1 The same results body wise can be obtained by mashing at a slightly higher temp say 67c.
2 the higher temp will also improve foam and head retension
3 I can't imagine how thick and cloyingly sweet a beer would be with even 20% carapils let alone 40%.
4 According to the style guidelines "A pilsner should have a dry crisp finish, with a well attenuated maltiness", I just can't seem to get that crispness when using carapils.
But again, that is only my opinion. I used carapils for years to aid in head retension but stopped using it because I found my beers to have too much mouthfeel.
For anyone interested below is the BJCP style guide for Pilsner.

Cheers
Andrew


2A. German Pilsner (Pils)
Aroma: Typically features a light grainy malt character (sometimes Graham cracker-like) and distinctive flowery or spicy noble hops. Clean, no fruity esters, no diacetyl. May have an initial sulfury aroma (from water and/or yeast) and a low background note of DMS (from pils malt).
Appearance: Straw to light gold, brilliant to very clear, with a creamy, long-lasting white head.
Flavor: Crisp and bitter, with a dry to medium-dry finish. Moderate to moderately-low yet well attenuated maltiness, although some grainy flavors and slight malt sweetness are acceptable. Hop bitterness dominates taste and continues through the finish and lingers into the aftertaste. Hop flavor can range from low to high but should only be derived from German noble hops. Clean, no fruity esters, no diacetyl.
Mouthfeel: Medium-light body, medium to high carbonation.
Overall Impression: Crisp, clean, refreshing beer that prominently features noble German hop bitterness accentuated by sulfates in the water


Lindsay Dive said:


> Andrew,
> 
> I notice with interest that you say that the addition of Cara Pils is a big no no in a Pilsner.
> 
> ...


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## Lindsay Dive (3/9/05)

Hi Andrew,

I must ask the question....Have you used Weyermann Cara Pils?

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## AndrewQLD (3/9/05)

To be honest, I am not sure if I used Weyermann or hoepfner.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Lindsay Dive (3/9/05)

Both Andrews,

Now to chuck my two bob's worth in regarding hops for your Pilsner. 
I was lucky enough to purchase some of this seasons New Zealand Saaz B Hop Cones.
Trust me, these are fantastic hops. I have not been able to get any for three years and I pleaded with the folks at New Zealand hops to sell some direct to me and they did.
I do not know if they are available from any of the brew shops but you could only try. I know the pellets area available though.
Weyermann Pilsner or Bohemian Pilsner malt, 5% Weyermann Cara Pils, Saaz B Hops and Whitelabs WLP802 (Czech Budejovice Lager) and you will be as happy as Larry.

Lindsay.


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## AndrewQLD (3/9/05)

Lindsay Dive said:


> Both Andrews,
> 
> Now to chuck my two bob's worth in regarding hops for your Pilsner.
> I was lucky enough to purchase some of this seasons New Zealand Saaz B Hop Cones.
> ...



Lindsay,
I don't suppose you have any of those Saaz B hops lying around that you would be willing to sell do you  I would love to give the cones a go. I would even be tempted to try your recipe including the carapils  just to be fair :lol: .

Cheers
Andrew


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## Lindsay Dive (3/9/05)

Andrew,

I treat this stuff like gold leaf!!

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## Guest Lurker (3/9/05)

Oops I have 100g of those NZ SaazB flowers in my fridge and wasnt sure what to do with them, used some in a CAP cos I wanted to get rid of them. I stand corrected and will use the rest in a German pilsner. Sorry Andrew that wont leave any to post. But I got mine of a guy who bouught directly from the hop board in NZ and said they were great to deal with and didnt mind small orders. They really are fresh and resiny.


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## tdh (4/9/05)

What happened to the Pils debate?

To me 100% Pils malt = Koelsch

But then again nearly every HB koelsch that I've come across has been 'fiddled' with "a bit of wheat, a touch of carapils, a little Vienna or Munich malt!!!

The problem with the interpretation of guidelines is that you also need to drink German Pilsners and also commercial Koelsch and ideally in Germany. Then one can truly interpret the guidelines.

tdh

tdh


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## Jazman (4/9/05)

GL the nz hop board are great to deal with as i got great service from when i was in NZ and sell pellets in 100grms lots in sealed foil bags and cheap maybee a good idea iwth a next bulk buy to get some kiwi hops as they have german and english ones as well.....


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## Malnourished (4/9/05)

tdh said:


> What happened to the Pils debate?
> 
> To me 100% Pils malt = Koelsch
> 
> ...


I'm up for a Pils debate!
I'm no fan of style guidelines but I'd be willing to bet that there are numerous commercial examples of Klsch, German Pils, Bohemian Pils, Helles and "Premium"/Continental Lager all made with 100% Pils malt. The thing that differentiates them to me is the hops (primarily) and the yeast (second.) The mashing regime would obviously also have quite an influence.

Personally I don't feel the need for CaraPils in a Pilsener (or any style for that matter) because I get sufficient body without it. 

And Klsch is crap anyway - it needs wheat/Vienna/Munich/hops to make it more interesting


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## Trough Lolly (4/9/05)

I put down a German Pils last night: Half Hoepfner, half Weyermann Pils malt with 300g of Weyermann Carapils. Bittered with Northern Brewer and had two late additions of fresh Tettnanger. Yeast is 2L of S-189 slurry from a Czech Pils...
Without the Carapils, I'm brewing a Koelsch...
And you don't need to mash the stuff - so its great for extract brewers who want to improve head without the cloying additions of dextrin / powdered corn syrup.

I rarely brew without Carapils - it doesn't sweeten the brew and if it did add any of the alleged crystal notes that people keep referring to, then you are either mashing at the wrong temp, have your hopping additions out of balance or you are using the wrong yeast. I had an email chat with John Palmer and one of the former Breiss Employees / gurus about Carapils (I can copy/paste it in if people want), and the general consensus is that Carapils (Weyermann or Breiss) does not add any noticeable flavour in addition to the dextrins that it adds to the brew...

Leave carapils alone - it's great for lasting rocky heads of foam on tall glasses of crystal clear pils!!

/rant off - I'm needing one right now!!/

Cheers,
TL
Edit: sp.


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## Malnourished (4/9/05)

Trough Lolly said:


> ... the general consensus is that Carapils (Weyermann or Breiss) does not add any noticeable flavour in addition to the dextrins that it adds to the brew...
> [post="75328"][/post]​


So why not just mash higher then?


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## mje1980 (4/9/05)

Trough lolly, i agree with you, i use cara pils for a lot of beers, and i dont notice any sweetness at all. I have made 100% pils malt pilseners, but i believe the cara pils gives it a bit extra.


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## agraham (5/9/05)

Supplies have been purchased. 

6kg Powells Pilsner Malt.
500 g Powells Munich malt.

80g of Hellertau pellets.

Will let you know how this baby goes.

Cheers,

Andrew

P.S The nect project is for a munich dunkel...i was thinking 100% Powells munich malt with wyeast 2308 and 20-23 IBU's.


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## pint of lager (5/9/05)

If you can get any, try say 10-20 % weyerman dark munich in your next brew.

Regaurding the carapils, because it doesn't need mashing, it becomes a prime candidate for a split batch brew, some with carapils, some without.


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## SJW (5/9/05)

Well I am now drinking a Pilsner that had about 7% Carapils (WEYERMANN) from mem. it was 500grams in a 25 litre batch. IMO It has turned out a bit too sweet. I mashed cool, between 64 & 62 deg C so I can only put it down to the Carapils. I also First wort hopped with 50g Saaz then 50g Saaz for 60min boil and 50g Saaz for 10min's. Its not a bad drop but it is still very green and I will see how things develop. Its only been in the bottle for 4 weeks.

STEPHEN


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## Lindsay Dive (5/9/05)

I'm with Trough Lolly on this one.....well, for most.
I have a problem.
Koelsch = Ale. Am I off on a tangent? 
If I wish to make a Koelsch as opposed to a Pilsner, I basically use the same malt bill as the Pilsner with but with a European Ale Yeast. 
I'll leave the hops out of the discussion at present.

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## tdh (5/9/05)

But a Koelsch is drier and less malty than a Pils and requires a single grain (maybe a touch of wheat).
The recommended Wyeast 2565 works at 13*C, essentially a cold fermented ale.
A pils needs to be maltier than a Koelsch and Carapils does the trick.

tdh


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## Ross (5/9/05)

TDH,

What would be your preferred malt bill for a pils then?


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## Lindsay Dive (5/9/05)

Direct from Whitelabs site,

_European Ale WLP011.
Malty, Northern European-origin ale yeast. Low ester production, giving a clean profile. Little to no sulfur production. Low attenuation helps to contribute to the malty character. Good for Alt, Kolsch, malty English ales, and fruit beers. 
Attenuation: 65-70; Flocculation: Medium; Optimum Ferm. Temp: 65-70._

Am I still missing something?

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## MAH (5/9/05)

tdh said:


> A pils needs to be maltier than a Koelsch and Carapils does the trick.



Hang on TDH, didn't someone else post that Carapils dosen't add any noticeable flavour? How can it add to the maltiness of the beer then?

The only reason I don't use Carapils is because the supposed benefits of head retention and body are not things that my 100% Pils beers have lacked. If they did have these problems them I might look at Carapils.

And in regards to the difference I would have thought that this comes down to the yeast you use and the more aggresive hop schedule of a pils.

1 grain, 1 hop (with bittering, flavour and aroma additions at 60/15/0) a good lager yeast, fermented cold and lagered makes for a fine Pilsner.

Cheers
MAH


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## MAH (5/9/05)

Malnourished said:


> agraham said:
> 
> 
> > I will be using Tetnanger hops and Wyeast munich lager yeast.
> ...



Used it and loved it. Earlier this year I made a 100% pils and 100% tettnanger German Pilsner.

I split the batch and pitched half with Danish Lager and half with Munich Lager. Both very at the top of beers I'd made. The Danish came out really nice and crisp and was perfect for summer drinking. The Munich was smoother, maltier, more complex, more refined. Strange thing though was that the Danish, even though it wasn't as full flavoured, got drunk quicker, there was just something about it's crisp character that made you want to drink one after the other.

I reckon the Munich would make a great Vienna lager using nothing but 100% Vienna malt (maybe 30mgs of some roasted malt for colour adjustment).

Cheers
MAH


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## mikem108 (6/9/05)

Tried a bottled Kolsch from Germany on the weekend, waaaaaay more malty than just about any pils I have tried before.


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## Asher (6/9/05)

I'm on the carapills bandwagon...... (mabe time for a poll here - sorry about the post hijack)

I add carapills not for 'a head' so to speak..., more for head retention.
I haven't noticed it adding any extra body or sweetness from the 5% additions I use, but I have noticed a drop in head performance in beers I don't use it in.....

..................................................

agraham - Munich lager is a cracker of a yeast.... Just don't be in a hurry to rack off the primary yeast cake... do a diacetyl rest or allow a week or so in secondary/keg at room temps before cold conditioning and you'll be fine... B) 

Asher for now


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## warrenlw63 (6/9/05)

One thing I'll say for CaraPils is I like the lacework it leaves on the glass.

Pils with a rather sticky head. :blink: 

Warren -


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## sluggerdog (6/9/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> One thing I'll say for CaraPils is I like the lacework it leaves on the glass.
> 
> Pils with a rather sticky head. :blink:
> 
> ...




I aggree. I always use the carapils for this reaon, even with a pint I have this all the way to the last drop...

:beer:


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## agraham (6/9/05)

I am excited as to put this puppy down.....Pitty i have to wait for my okctoberfest bier to slow down so that i can rack it to my secondary...I have no spare fermentors!

BTW. My ocktoberfest was 1/3 pils 1/3 vienna 1/3 munich, tetnang hops and 2308 munich lager yeast. I has a huge ass yeast cake on to of it, the likes of which i have never seen....
AND MAN IT SMELLS FANTASTIC!

wohoo!


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