# Weihenstephan Hefe Clone



## blakie21 (17/11/11)

Hi guys

I have made quite a few kit brews now, all turning out great by my standards. Unfortunately I can't go out and get a pint and enjoy it anymore unless I go somewhere with really good beers on tap as I can honestly say my beers are way ahead! 

I haven't bothered going to extract brewing because kits seemed easier but am considering going all grain after making a chocolate stout with grains and a kit. 

My question to you guys is, apart from the cost of AG being alot cheaper and being able to tweak recipes, will I notice a big difference? 
I recently made a weihenstephan hefe clone with a kit and 3068 yeast and came very close.. until I tried both together. I am pretty impressed that I got so close but I seem to be missing something I can't explain. My beer is missing the 'bite'. I apologise for the terrible explanation I can't do much better. 

My other question is, has anyone got a recipe that is very close? If it is possible with only all grain I will switch right now! I seriously love my weihenstephan haha. 

I would still be making band-aid beer if it wasn't for these forums!
Cheers guys


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## Nick JD (17/11/11)

With the heavily yeast-driven beers like hefeweizens you'll get a pretty decent result with extract brewing because the primary flavour components are yeast derived.

Where AG excels is in the styles that are malt driven. And to a lesser degree, hop driven. 

Try to clone a smooth Euro Lager with extracts and it's next to unpossible. But Hefes and Belgians suit extract brewing.

Fact remains that if you want to stop getting "close" and get "exact" you have to be using the same ingredients as the commerical breweries. Like with anything - you can completely screw up a lot of things and still get it right if you have the right stuff.

Cloning beers is 75% ingredients; 25% not ******* it up.


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## Dazza88 (17/11/11)

have you tried the search function?

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww....388&bih=715

and good on ya if ya happy with ya kit brewing, the best ones i ever did were the coopers dark ale and the english bitter, the sparkling ale wasn't bad either. 

People may be able to give you more direction if you actually post the details of the recipe you used.


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## jakub76 (17/11/11)

I have also been working towards emulating the nice spiciness of the Weihenstephan and Franziskaner Hefe. The 3068 does very well at this when pitched cold (14C) and fermented cool (17C). Warmer temps and small pitches will result in more banana flavour which I don't really like.

As for my recipe I use a bit of Munich malt for some extra malt flavour and colour, Carapils for sweetness, about 60% Wheat and the rest Pils. I do a decoction mash which also adds more colour and a unique flavour character. The clove character can be further encouraged by doing a ferulic acid mash rest at around 43C - something you can't control when using extract.

Though I'm sure you could get a decent result using extract. Most wheat malt extract is 40-50% wheat and extract generally finishes a bit high so you would theoretically get a bit of sweetness in the finished beer.


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## blakie21 (17/11/11)

Maybe thats why I have really enjoyed my beers so far. Made a couple of wheat beers, a belgian blonde, and a IPA. You make a really good point Nick and makes alot of sense now that I think about it. I may have to make the switch to AG anyway since euro lagers are on my "to brew list" and lagers so far have been decent but not anywhere near a euro lager. But so far my beers have been yeast driven or hop driven mostly. 

I have been happy with all of my kit brews so far since looking for fresh kits and using malt and decent yeast. I may have to give the 3068 cooler since mine was at around 20c since I don't mind banana in my beer. I think the spec malts might help me on my next quest for the hefe . Do you guys think spec malts will help make a better hefe? 

To be honest I am pretty happy and to want to beat or fully clone a brew which costs $80-100 a carton should be out of my reach otherwise I would not be buying them! Can't hurt to try ;D

For anybody interested my simple hefe clone was -

Thomas Coopers Wheat Beer
1.5kg Liquid Wheat Malt 
3068 yeast

Thanks guys.


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

Blakie said:


> Thomas Coopers Wheat Beer
> 1.5kg Liquid Wheat Malt
> 3068 yeast



Give this a go, Blakie. Easy Belgian.

Thomas Coopers Wheat Beer
1.5kg Liquid Malt 
1kg Dextrose
1214 yeast


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## blakie21 (18/11/11)

Cheers Nick,

Been looking for a recipe to use the 1214! 
Would you suggest any specialty grains steeped or not bother?


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## Silo Ted (18/11/11)

Blake, keep a bottle of your wheaty in the fridge upside down, and drink after a day when all the yeast is suspended. It will taste a lot different, and might be what youre looking for.


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## blakie21 (18/11/11)

Cheers Silo,

I have kegs now so I basically just shake it up whenever I feel like a beer . Tastes much better with the yeast though for sure!


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

Blakie said:


> Cheers Nick,
> 
> Been looking for a recipe to use the 1214!
> Would you suggest any specialty grains steeped or not bother?



Depends what you're after. Which Chimay do you like best?


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## blakie21 (18/11/11)

Everyone loves the blue so I am probably going to get shot down but.. I actually really liked the red and the yellow more than the blue.. all great beers though

However I made the mistake of drinking the yellow and red first so when I got to the blue I wasn't in the best tasting frame of mind .


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

Blakie said:


> Everyone loves the blue so I am probably going to get shot down but.. I actually really liked the red and the yellow more than the blue.. all great beers though
> 
> However I made the mistake of drinking the yellow and red first so when I got to the blue I wasn't in the best tasting frame of mind .



Steep 250g of Special B and 200g of Caramunich #1 - you'd want an OG of around 1.060-1.065.


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## blakie21 (18/11/11)

Awesome 

Will be giving that one a try for sure. Thanks for the belgian expertise 

Would that be like the red?


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

Blakie said:


> Would that be like the red?



Yup. 

For the White Triple you wanna aim for 1.075-1.080 and pretty much leave out the spec malts. 

The AG versions have about 10-20% sucrose, but with extracts I'd go up to 30% as the liquid malts are quite unfermentable and designed to work with more sugar. 

That said - don't just add more sugar to go from red to white to blue - keep it balanced. 

1214 is in all of them.


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## blakie21 (18/11/11)

Thanks, Appreciate the help! 

Three more beers added to the neverending list of stuff to brew. I didn't realise simple sugars were good in some recipes as I always aimed for mostly malt and a small amount of dextrose to boost alcohol. 

Would you say the sucrose actually adds to the character of the beer? or is it just from a cost standpoint? 

Sorry for all the questions


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

Blakie said:


> Would you say the sucrose actually adds to the character of the beer? or is it just from a cost standpoint?



The Monks love the stuff! Seems to be in most belgians, a guess is that it's handy to boost the alcohol without boosting the body too much. 

I think here in Oz we're "sugar nazis" because it's associated with K&K and Megaswill (Aussie lagers have shitloads of sugar in them).

But the Monks make freakin delicious beer; and if they use sugar than I say GOOD! 

Same as with anything though - a bit is okay, too much is not.


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## Est.91 (18/11/11)

Hi Mate,

I know that your question was about AG...But I found the Hefeweizen fresh wort that I used with orange peel and coriander seed additions + WLP300 liquid yeast was ridiculously close to the real thing. It's an AG beer with about 1 tenth of the effort. These are the guys I get mine from: http://www.brewerschoice.com.au/contact-us.html


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## seamad (18/11/11)

I think you mean a wit, a hefe has no spices/orange etc


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## HoppingMad (21/11/11)

The 'bite' you seek for the ultimate Weihenstephan Hefe sounds like you're looking for a better mouthfeel and caramel backbone to me.

Best acheived by doing a form of mashing called Decoction. Used by many traditional European breweries. 

Without it you have a thinner and more watery wheat - albeit a drinkable enough beer, but you won't have the 3rd dimension that decoction will give you like the bottled one you buy. The only homebrewed clones I've tried that come close to the real deal Weihanstephaner use a decoction. I'm talking all-grain though - with some extracts/kits you may get more body & melanoids if you're heading that way.

There is a short cut if you don't want to use a decoction. Basically you could or put in some Melanoiden Malt which will simulate the effect of a decoction mash. Just don't add too much or you will cock up your brew and also make the beer darker and sweet/cloying. You will find most weizen recipes only recommend 120 - 228g thereabouts of Melanoiden malt in a 5 gallon/19L batch, but have a surf around and devise your own combo.

You can also check out specs on grains like these at the Weyerman website where they list percentages you should use, or talk to your local homebrew store.

Another way to add some more body is to mash out at a higher temp at the end - many recipes and experienced Weizen buffs suggest this to get rid of the thin factor.

Hopper.


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## blakie21 (21/11/11)

Thanks for the awesome post Hopper. 

Glad you understood my terrible explanation but sounds exactly like what mine is lacking. 

Can the Melanoiden malt be added to an extract brew as a cheat method? Can it be steeped or does it need to be mashed?

Going to be venturing into AG territory soon but due to time constraints might be sticking to extract and kit for now. You have given me something to aim for and the means to get there! Cheers


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## Nick JD (21/11/11)

Adding some melanoidin (needs to be mashed) to an extract is going to be a big hassle.


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## blakie21 (21/11/11)

Looks like I will be going AG sooner than I thought . Thanks Nick


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## Nick JD (21/11/11)

Watch this:



_[don't mention the War]_

While staring at this:


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## HoppingMad (23/11/11)

OK gotcha - sorry - thought because the category said beginnerpartials/ag you may be more ag. 

If memory serves me one of the beers that won VicBrew in 2006 or placed that year in the Wheat Category was an extract based Hefe. 

That guy must have done something right in terms of his ingredients. I'll check the book I have when I get home - it might suggest what you need to do to get a good hefe without having to plunge into full blown AG right away. 

A couple of hundred grams of Melanoiden should be something you could crush simply in a coffee grinder or using the teatowel & rolling pin trick to add to your other extract ingredients? It's a crude method but can be done. I wouldn't have thought doing a small crush, steeping a small amount and adding it the kit/extract would have been a big issue? 

Not that I'm trying to stop you! You should join us on the dark side, it's better here (laughs wickedly into his delicious tasting AG beer) h34r: 

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (23/11/11)

HoppingMad said:


> A couple of hundred grams of Melanoiden should be something you could crush simply in a coffee grinder or using the teatowel & rolling pin trick to add to your other extract ingredients? It's a crude method but can be done. I wouldn't have thought doing a small crush, steeping a small amount and adding it the kit/extract would have been a big issue?



Melanoidin needs to be mashed. Not steeped. Mashed.


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## felten (23/11/11)

Even if you don't convert the starch in it (you wouldn't notice starch haze in a hef anyway), you should still be able to steep the flavour out right?


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## Nick JD (23/11/11)

felten said:


> Even if you don't convert the starch in it (you wouldn't notice starch haze in a hef anyway), you should still be able to steep the flavour out right?



Dunno. Could always "steep" it at 70C for 30 minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if the melanoidins are locked up in with the starch. Unlike the caramel toffee that's readily dissolvable in a caramalt grain. Munich et al are just hot kilned to produce the melanoidins and unconverted, I believe.

I would guess that one of the main reasons adding melanoidin to a beer rather than decocting is that the melanoidin is made at hotter temperatures than a decoction.


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## blakie21 (23/11/11)

Maybe I can guinea pig this? 

Worst case I make beer right? Would it make it taste really bad? or just not work?


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## Nick JD (23/11/11)

Blakie said:


> Would it make it taste really bad? or just not work?



You know how you usually steep spec grains? This time, put a thermometer in to make sure the water is ~71C then add your melanoidin grain, put the lid on and cover it in a towel and wait 30 minutes.

Use the thingo at the bottom of this page

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

to calculate your strike temp with you water volume and grain amount. A mash at 70C only takes 30 minutes.


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## Wimmig (23/11/11)

The extract one i did was;

2.72kg wheat dry malt
28g hallertau hersbrucker @ 4.5%
Wyeast 3068

Though the other lists around;

AG
OG 1.053
2.27kg german pilsner malt
2.27kg german wheat malt
226g rice / oat hulls
3.7 HBU
Wyeast 3068


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