# Time For A Sour Mash?



## Weizguy (1/1/05)

So, the fam is away for 2 weeks.
It's prob the best time for a sour mash. :blink: 
I hope to make a soured Summer ale for quaffing (of course).
Anyone want to suggest % grist. I hear 5-10% is suitable.
Is a soured Berliner Weisse out of the question, or a Wit?
Let me hear ya say "Yo".
Prob go quite well in a soured smoked stout.
Well, that's my 4 fermentors accounted for.
Anyone want to convince to brew something else?
All replies welcomed!
Happy brew year :chug:  :chug: 
Seth


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## Doc (1/1/05)

Haven't done it myself but if I was going souring then Berliner Weisse would be my choice of brew.
Family gone for two week, mate brew up a storm. Double, triple decoctions, sour mashes, three hour boils ...........
I can get a pantry or kitchen prepped and painted plus 3+ AG brews done in two days. It all comes down to planning and multi-tasking.
Check out this topic

Beers,
Doc


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## Doc (1/1/05)

Also check out this topic to order yourself some cheap fermenters.
They arrive a day late for me to do a 4 AG brew day, but they were still A-Grade and a great price with a hassle free transaction. 
I don't know if anyone has ordered off him lately, but I hope he is still in business.

Beers,
Doc

PS: No affiliation or anything blah blah blah blah ..........


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## Weizguy (1/1/05)

Thanks Doc,
Do U mind if I adopt U as my (online) mentor?
Do U have any Berliner Weisse recipes? I have the one from BYO mag.
I've done a few multi-brew daze, but usually including at least one extract brew. Must fit in with the family, U know.
Seth out


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## Doc (1/1/05)

Weizguy said:


> Do U have any Berliner Weisse recipes? I have the one from BYO mag.


 Sorry Weiz, I don't have any experience brewing one, just drinking them.
I see them as a challenge to brew, and while I like to have the odd Berliner Weisse there is always other styles ahead of it in my palet queue to master.

Beers,
Doc


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## Weizguy (2/1/05)

Gonna try the BYO recipe. Good session beer at 2.6% alc.
Do U think that I could refrigerate some of the sour mash for later use? Surely it won't get contaminated, now that the lactobacillus have control.
In an old Ausbeer mag, Eric Young reckons that 3 daze @ 50C is the right time to sour a sample. Blue fuzzy stuff on it etc...  
I'll go and buy some malt for the Weisse and Wit tomorrow. Mark's home brew is open tomorrow U C. He was closed Friday as he was painting the shop, but will be open on Monday.
Prepare for lactobacilli to assume control of my house.  

Sethule


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## Doc (2/1/05)

Go for it Weise, and post pics.

Beers,
Doc


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## Weizguy (8/1/05)

Sour mash is now @ Day 2. Startiing to get a little smelly, but still gotta get close to detect it. I might leave it for 4 daze. Then we won't have chase the spiders and vinegar flys out of the house. Those little buggers love brew rooms.

Have already started 2 brews. The whimsical Coke Poorter, and another APA with hops in stock and a bit extra from the brew shop - all Cascade. (oops, I lied, there is Willamette mixed with Cascade for flavour).
The APA is a pm brew with 500g Vienna (in stock) and some English crystal (200g) and some dark munich (100g). Mash 90 min at 66-67 C, to ensure full conversion,...etc. It's for the Superbowl get-together, and I'm also making a wheat. Will prob take 1/2 doz Wit too, coz the host likes it.

Seth rambling on. Settle now, Bubby. Anyone recognise the quote? :wacko:


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## Weizguy (11/1/05)

Well, the sour mash has been going for 4 daze now. It's not getting smelly, and it's not getting mouldy or crusty.
It does smell like mushy baby porridge that's gone a bit sour, though.
It's been sitting at 50- 54 C in a hot water bath, which I think is right. 570g pils malt, with enough water to cover it only.
Will divide it into 2 lots this arvo, and place in freezer until I have a day off, and then it will go into the 2 mash brews (Wit and Berliner Weisse) when I brew them.
Photos later today. Not much to see. So prob just 2 photos.
Seth out


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## phantom (14/1/05)

Weizguy said:


> Seth rambling on. Settle now, Bubby. Anyone recognise the quote? :wacko:


 Bad boy bubby,bad boy.don,t gladwrap the cat


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## Weizguy (14/1/05)

phantom said:


> Bad boy bubby.


Yep, and the movie was made in Adelaide. The whole town feels like that. Some don't like it. I find it attractive.

Been to Adelaide a few times. Only place in Oz where U can get Bali belly. Well, maybe not , but I got sick there once due to the water. Mostly drank great beer and, sicko that i am, liked the green death - Southwark Pale ale. There is no accounting for taste.

BTW, my sour mash is in 2 ziplocks in the freezer. Doesn't smell real sour, and a can't taste it b4 I boil it, I'm told. though I nearly failed in resisting temptation.

I reckon the Berliner is first tomorrow. ag and cloe to a mini-mash. Should work well with a batch sparge. We shall see. I have wheat malt and pils malt and Spalter and sour mash and German ale yeast , I think.

I'll get back to you when I start.
Got a hoto of the sour mash bbuut it never got really stinky or mouldy. Maybe its the local acetobacter. Find out when I brew.

Seth out, and have a brewlicious weekend.


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## Weizguy (2/2/05)

OK, so it took me a while to get to this.
Berliner weisse...
According to BYO mag, I should start the mash at 35-38 C for an "acid and hydration rest" for a minimum of 2 hours. So I did, and then I read further along in the article that some German brewers "let the mash rest overnight". So that's what I'm doing to increase the phytic acid and hopefully let my sour mash (from the freezer) work on the entire grist.
Didn't post the sour mash pix coz there was nothing special to see. No blue mould, no fuzzy stuff, no odd appearance, just a small vessel containing a thick mash in a larger vessel ; double boiler-type setup.
If the beer's not sour enough after a week, I'll order some Lactobacillus Delbruckii and inocculate the wort with it.
I'll taste the wort as it goes into the fermentor, and check for acidity.
Before pitching the yeast, I'll reserve about 2 litres of wort for later use as krausen (food for the yeast, to produce carbonation).
Hope to be able to report some worthwhile data soon.
Seth


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## kook (3/2/05)

The traditional german breweries not only leave the mash to rest, they dont boil the wort!

Hops are added to the mash to provide a small amount of bitterness, and an ale yeast is used.

Very strange beer, a lot like a young unblended lambic.


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## Weizguy (3/2/05)

Have just done the protein rest at 50 C, and just about to add water for the main mash @ 64C...done (and wrapped the esky in mylar bubblewrap 4 insulation
The wort is plenty sour though, and will become moreso with time in the fermentor.:blink: 
I'll be adding Spalt (12.5g @ 4.5AA) and boiling for 15 min. Will use German Ale yeast
I look forward to my "people's champagne".
Much happier now. Yum
Seth


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## thehipone (3/2/05)

Mostly a curiosity,

would acidulated malt get you a close approximation of what you get from a sour mash? or is there something else going on too?


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## Darren (3/2/05)

I did a sour nash a year or so ago. It is so sour now that it could take the enamel off your teeth.
Reminds me I was supposed to give some to you chiller!


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## Gulf Brewery (3/2/05)

thehipone

The sour mash gives a lactic tang where the acidulated malt will only drop the pH. 

Cheers
Pedro


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## Weizguy (3/2/05)

G'day thehipone,
I'd say it's a matter of degree. The acidulated malt is produced naturally, too. I could've used it, but was informed at my lhbs that it's cheaper and easy enough to make your own. So I did.
There is probably a greater amount of acidity this way. But, in this style, the acidity can vary a lot, so it's not out of style.
The flavour tends to differ from a separate lactic acid addition, as it will need time to blend in. A sour mash should blend more quickly and the lactic bacteria will create a drier beer as they eat the remaining sugars after the yeast has had it's fill.
Would love to see how this beer gets rated in a competition.

Hey, I can now say that I've done a sour mash!
Seth out


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## Weizguy (4/2/05)

The Weisse was pitched with Wyeast German ale at 24C and will go into the fridge at 17-18C. OG is 1.030 at 19 litres volume.
The tang is not overpowering, but is assertive already. Hope the yeast culture and ferment temp keep the sourness down.
We shall see.
I still have some sourmash in the freezer for another beer. I might split it between the Witbier and a tangy Summer ale.
Seth


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## Weizguy (18/2/05)

The weisse was cooled to 10C for 2 days before bottling with 2 litres of reserved wort (speise).
The 2 litres wort was initially removed before the yeast was pitched. It was boiled and cooled in a sealed container in the fridge, then stored in the freezer until bottling. When thawed, it was full of lumpy porridgey bits and I had to strain it through a sieve to add it to the wort for bottling.
This all happened about a week ago. :beer: 
Now I just have to wait for about 3 months (I read in BYO), and consume at fridge temp of 10C (maybe with raspberry syrup). :beerbang: 
There is a lot of sediment (about 1 cm) in the bottles. Could not produce a clear wort after vorlauf. Recirculated for about 20 min, and decided to boil it all anyway.
Tips for next time?
Seth :chug: 
BTW, today I am not making a sour beer. Instead a Fuller's London Pride clone (grain with sugar - recipe from "Brew your own Real Ale at Home". Last 30 min of boil now.


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## Weizguy (27/2/05)

G'day,
I tasted a sour weisse on Friday night. Not too bad at about 10C and without syrup. I added about 25ml raspberry syrup and it tasted like a fizzy drink with a slightly tangy sour aftertaste. Too easy to drink. :chug: 

Sethule


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## NRB (7/4/05)

Thought I'd dig this old topic up as I'm about to attempt a sour mash for a Hoegaarden clone over the weekend.

Thanks go to Pedro for pointing me to the Craft Brewers discussion on "lactic ferment", and thanks go to Asher for the post there.

If I'm reding correctly, taking 250g of my grain bill and minimashing it at 65C for 30 mins, cooling until <40C, mixing in a teaspoon of crushed but unmashed grain and leaving in a warm place for a few days, I SHOULD end up with Lark's vomit.

I take it that once mashed in wort is not strained off the grain, and no sparging takes place with this minimash... I've basically got the grain sitting in a 6-pack esky with gladwrap over it sitting in an old dead bar fridge with a heat pad turned on. Is this correct?

On brew day, I also presume that I either throw this entire lot into the mash or strain into the brew kettle making sure that it's boiled long enought to kill lactobacillus?

If someone could give me some clarity in these issues it would be most appreciated! Oh, and how did your sour beers turn out Seth?


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## AndrewQLD (7/4/05)

Throw the whole lot into the mash on brewday and proceed as normal, you will love it I'm sure.

Andrew


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## Jovial_Monk (7/4/05)

The grain added to the cooled minimash should be whole.

Jovial Monk


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## Weizguy (7/4/05)

NRB said:


> Oh, and how did your sour beers turn out Seth?
> [post="53301"][/post]​



First thing, as advised by Andrew, just chuck the lot in and mash as normal.

Nextly, I have been either busy, lazy or both and have _only made the Berliner weisse._
Great taste. Strong tartness that *begs* you to have another sip. I'll be consuming another of my "limited edition" bottles tonight. I may need to make another one soon, buuut... that may have to wait behind some other project beers.

If I have an opportunity, I'll do my Witbier this weekend, with about 150g of my frozen sour mash from the freezer(ziploc bag). S'pose I should be building my yeast up already.

I have about 1/2 dozen batches to make b4 I attempt the quaffing soured ale (or is that a soured quaffer?). A London Pride clone, another weizen (house ale), English pale ale, Wit, Czech Pils and a novelty Passionfruit Fizzy drink Wit (all the ingredients are here, just gotta make time). :chug: 

Don't worry, I'll keep this thread alive when I have results.

Seth


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## NRB (7/4/05)

Thanks for the input fellas.

JM - does it really matter if it's whole or cracked? There's _Lactobacillus_ there whether it's whole or cracked...


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## Weizguy (7/4/05)

NRB,

I'll answer this if that's OK... The grain can be either way; crushed or otherwise. The beasties are on the outside of the husk, so it doesn't need to be crushed, but if you've done it already...

You can also mix with water and bring to 45C for a few days. I did mine at 50C, all grain was crushed. The beer came out well nice. I soured 500g and split it into 2 lots and froze them until required.

JM, anything you want to add/ correct?

Seth


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## NRB (7/4/05)

Seth, that's what I'm getting at - the bacteria don't much care whether the carrier is whole or crushed; provided they've not been taken to a temperature above which they'd die.

It's sitting at 38C and will hopefully show signs of activity tomorrow.


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## Weizguy (7/4/05)

Yep, but the bacteria also needs to access the inside of the grain as a food source.
So U prob need some crushed grain.

Am I still coherent?

Seth


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## NRB (9/4/05)

It's been sitting between 39C and 41C for 2 days now... starting to smell really bad. Definitely see where the description comes from as it's a sickly vomitus smell. I'll leave it until 5pm today (exactly 48hrs since innoculated) and see how it's progressed.

I bloody hope I can remove the smell from my esky when it's all done!


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## Jovial_Monk (9/4/05)

From what I remember reading about this, crushing the grain can create enough heat to kill the lactobaccillus!

Since you are adding it to a mash plenty for the beasties to chew on

JM


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## chiller (9/4/05)

Jovial_Monk said:


> From what I remember reading about this, crushing the grain can create enough heat to kill the lactobaccillus!
> 
> Since you are adding it to a mash plenty for the beasties to chew on
> 
> ...




This statement certainly needs clarification JM "from what you remember" come on what are you crushing with a steam driven heated roller mill.

Grain dust is a sure way to innoculate with lactobaccillus!

Now -- If I have woken from a Saturday slumber and misread your post you now have the opportunity to post scientific data to back you "theory"

Steve


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## Jovial_Monk (9/4/05)

Ummmmm "Homebrewing" by Graham Wheeler, likely others besides.

Any mention I have seen anywhere of a lactic mash mentions whole grains


JM


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## NRB (9/4/05)

Jovial_Monk said:


> From what I remember reading about this, crushing the grain can create enough heat to kill the lactobaccillus!



I find it very hard to believe that you can sterilise grain by running it through the mill.


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## Kai (9/4/05)

I'm sure lactobacillus could be killed in the crush, if the grain got hot enough to immolate. Beer might turn out a bit crap though.


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## Jovial_Monk (9/4/05)

Ummmmm, Kai, the ole lactowhatsit is killed at pasteurisation temp which is w w a a y y below burning point of the grains

JM


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## Gulf Brewery (9/4/05)

Jovial_Monk said:


> Ummmmm, Kai, the ole lactowhatsit is killed at pasteurisation temp which is w w a a y y below burning point of the grains
> 
> JM
> [post="53635"][/post]​



So JM

What temp do you crush at to kill lacto? No homebrewer could possibly crush grain around the temp required. 

Pedro


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## Kai (9/4/05)

So you're telling me your grain gets over 65C when you crack it, JM? And that's ignoring the fact that to kill bacteria you need far more heat in a dry medium, and that even if for a fraction of a second your grain does get hot, to compensate for that low time you'd need an incredibly high temperature to compensate both for the time and lack of water, then think of all that high surface area grain dust floating round. Can you say le whoosh?

But, by all means go ahead and brew some beers with the cracking as your sole pasteurisation step. I look forward to not trying the results.


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## Borret (31/5/05)

Weizguy said:


> NRB said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and how did your sour beers turn out Seth?
> ...


 Hey Seth,

Did you ever do that sour mash Wit?

I have got the week after the longweekend off (very longbrew weekend and my birthday in the middle of it :super: ) and am planning on doing a half batch AG Wit that week. And as I have the time I was considering doing a 5% sourmash leading up to the event to drop into the mash. Have got all my ingredients so can give it a go. 
So have you got any tips from your experince? Is it worth the little extra effort do the sour mash?

For the recipe I am going for the 50% pils malt, 45% raw wheat (from health food store) and 5% oats with bittering from either saaz or goldings and the usual corriander and orange skin (BTW I have about half a kg of dried stuff from the chinese woman at work who went a bit overboard when I asked her to get some from the asian grocery store. I think it may be mandarin skin, but should work, so if ya ever need some... I have quite a surplus to my requirement) At this stage am using a hoegaarden culture. I would love to use the wyeast wit you offered but can't see myself up that way before I need it. Perhaps I can use it for a comparison down the track.
Haven't decided on whether to try and step mash it yet, will depend on allocated time on brewday from SWMBO. I anticipate quite a slow sparge with all that raw wheat. 

All advice graciously accepted guys. Your comments will be taken on board and dismissed at our jury's discression.  

Cheers

Borret :blink:


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## Weizguy (31/5/05)

Borret,

No, I never got to making the sour mash Wit, but still have all the fixings.

It may go on the backburner while I make some Dunkelweizen and some IPA.

This week, I'll be bottling my London Pride clone (mkII), and my extract-based Arrogant Bastard clone (tastes great from the fermentor).

Bye 4 now

Seth out


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## warrenlw63 (31/5/05)

Borret,

I've done a couple of sour mashes. They work OK but results can be a little unpredictable. I've had them with noticeable sourness and some with virtually none detectable at all.

I've found a good shortcut in Witbiers is to add about 5% Acidulated malt. It more or less replicates a sour-mash with a bit more predictability.

If you decide to do a sour mash just mash in the portion (really small esky helps here), let it saccharify, cool it to about 50-55c then throw in a handful of crushed malt. Then cover the top of the mash with some foil to close up the surface area. Try and keep it between about 40-50c for a minimum of 24 hours. Open it up regularly and have a whiff, it will start to smell a bit ordinary. If you have any way of checking the pH your mash is good when it drops below pH 4.0.

Have fun.

Warren -


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## Borret (31/5/05)

Warren,

So if I do it a week or so before, and chuck it in the freezer to stop progress when it's good and bring it out the night before brewday it should all work smoothly? Will the portion mash actually taste quite sour/ tart at this point or will the smell be a better tell tail? 
I don't have anything to test PH with but the lab at work may, but I doubt it. If they do I might do a bouble sour batch and split it for later use.

Cheers

Borret


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## warrenlw63 (31/5/05)

Can't quantify this Borret,

Never frozen a mash. That said I couldn't see you having any problems. As long as you heat the soured portion up to mashing temps.

Hmmmm.... The advanced preparation. <_< Now you can see why I advocate the use of Acidulated Malt. Sour mashing is already done for you.

Warren -


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## Borret (31/5/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> Can't quantify this Borret,
> 
> Never frozen a mash. That said I couldn't see you having any problems. As long as you heat the soured portion up to mashing temps.
> 
> ...



I was under the impression that acidulated malt didn't really give you the souring quality required, only adjusted the PH of the mash. Or can you confirm otherwise from personal experience that it does give similar results?

Anyone else got some thought's here?

Regards

Borret :blink:


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## Darren (31/5/05)

Borret,I don't think the acid malt is sour mashed. I think it is sprayed with acid.
You certainly wouldn't want the flavours often associated with sour mashing in a light crisp pilsener
No harm in using in a wit though


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## warrenlw63 (31/5/05)

Yep,

Primary use is to lower mash pH. Malt is sprayed with lactic acid. Chew a few kernels of this malt and you'll realise how it gets its other name Sauermalz. 

Borret. It's very nature is to lower mash pH. Lower pH means acidic. I usually add about a kilo of this stuff per 40 litre batch of Wit. Proabably wouldn't use any more.

You'll detect it's flavour. The amounts I use aren't overpowering but they are noticeable.

Warren -


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## Weizguy (1/6/05)

Borret said:


> Warren,
> 
> So if I do it a week or so before, and chuck it in the freezer to stop progress when it's good and bring it out the night before brewday it should all work smoothly? Will the portion mash actually taste quite sour/ tart at this point or will the smell be a better tell tail?
> I don't have anything to test PH with but the lab at work may, but I doubt it. If they do I might do a bouble sour batch and split it for later use.
> ...



Borret,

My Berliner weisse was soured by a portion of the sour mash. It had been in the freezer for a while, and was well sour.

Freezing may affect the bacteria, but will not remove the lactic acid that has already been produced...
BTW mine didn't smell too filthy, but I guess that maybe I'm more tolerant than most.

Gave some of the sour Berliner to a wheat farmer and he couldn't stomach it. Didn't even taste it. Reminded him of rotten wheat.

Seth


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## Borret (1/6/05)

So the whole batch tastes like you haven't cleaned the mash tun for a week or is it different? I'm not sure that's desirable. Might build the sour mash and decide once I see how it turns out. Or I'll try adn get some acidualted malt between now and then.

Cheers

Borret


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## Chad (10/10/07)

NRB said:


> I take it that once mashed in wort is not strained off the grain, and no sparging takes place with this minimash...


This never got answered, so is it correct. Just leave everything in there for the souring, then dump it all into the final mash?


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## Jye (10/10/07)

Chad said:


> This never got answered, so is it correct. Just leave everything in there for the souring, then dump it all into the final mash?



Yes thats correct.


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## Weizguy (10/10/07)

Borret said:


> So the whole batch tastes like you haven't cleaned the mash tun for a week or is it different? I'm not sure that's desirable. Might build the sour mash and decide once I see how it turns out. Or I'll try adn get some acidualted malt between now and then.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Borret


As I never answered this one at the time, and considering that someone revived the thread...

No, Borret, the whole batch doesn't taste like you haven't cleaned the mash tun for a week. Those flavours are extreme, and would include some lacto and acetic flavours, as well as many others such as polyamines (chloriney, fishy, yucky).

The beer produced from a small sour mash has the sourness of a plain/natural yoghurt, which is more tart than sour.

You can always top up with straight lactic acid (in small amounts) if the tartness is underwhelming or unbalanced.

Any more questions.
Beerz
Seth


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