# Swiss Lager At 19 Degrees, Is This Possible?



## BjornJ (19/11/10)

Hi all,
is there anyone who has experience with brewing lagers at high temperatures and getting a clean flavor profile?

I have seen a couple of comments about an Australian lager yeast that could go high in temp, as well as hearing something about Swiss Lager yeast that could go high.

Looking in beersmith the highest I can see is the San Francisco Lager yeast which I have used a couple of times.
But it is not recommended to go over 15 to stay clean in flavor.

S-189 is a Swiss Lager dry yeast, Craftbrewer web site says 12 degrees is ideal but I believe Ross was saying it could be used up to 19?


Just asking if anyone has done this successfully as in getting a clean tasting lager.

(would be nice to make lagers at ale speeds)

thanks
Bjorn


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## Bribie G (19/11/10)

I do it all the time, but be prepared for a wee bit of fruit and not as totally clean as using a Pils style liquid yeast at 11 degrees - also give it a diacetyl rest. I normally use S-189 at around 16 degrees which seems to be sweet spot, and 10 days in primary, 10 days in lagering. I find it's good for highly hopped German Pils type lagers where you've got a few hops to hide behind


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## Steve (19/11/10)

BjornJ said:


> Hi all,
> is there anyone who has experience with brewing lagers at high temperatures and getting a clean flavor profile?
> 
> I have seen a couple of comments about an Australian lager yeast that could go high in temp, as well as hearing something about Swiss Lager yeast that could go high.
> ...



Yep, can be done at ale temps with good results. Done it a lot.


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## bignath (19/11/10)

bjorn,

only slightly off topic so i will make it quick mate.

I currently have two batches of a smash nelson sauvin lager fermenting with the swiss lager (s189) at 12 degrees in my fridge.

Both have gone from 1044 to 1016 in five days. This is the first time i have used this yeast so i didn't know what to expect.

I obviously don't know if this is normal for this yeast. If it is normal and you haven't used it before, then it could be good news to get a lager done a little quicker. 

I was expecting a two week primary, but it looks like i can go to secondary by start of next week.

cheers

bignath


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## Duff (19/11/10)

It's a very good, clean and attenuating dry lager yeast. As the prior poster noted, at lager temperatures it chews through the wort pretty quickly. Spend the extra couple of days and you will get the results.


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## BjornJ (19/11/10)

thanks for the feedback.
Would be fun to try, maybe do a lager at 15-16 degrees and just see how it turns out.

With the few lagers I have made I am struggeling to know how long they need to lager.
My last one was 2 weeks at 0 degrees and a couple of days at -2 and still had not cleared.
Haven't tested it yet but guessing it should have been lagered for longer.
Others seem to do only 10 days and get good results, hmm.


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## Crunched (19/11/10)

I tried a lager of Ross's the other day that he said was brewed at ale temps - very clean. Apparently he had fermented it for only 10 days as well and then filtered.


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## Ross (19/11/10)

Yes, all our lagers are currently fermented in a 19c coldroom. 10 days fermenting & then 10 days at 1c before filtering & kegging/bottling
The S-189 doesn't display any fruitiness or diaceytal. Perfect for Euro lagers

We do our Aussis style Ale/lagers with S-23 at 19c - Again no fruitiness at all, but we do get the ester character of the mainstream Aussie beers, so works great for the dreaded XXXX clones.

Cheers Ross


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## argon (19/11/10)

Ross said:


> Yes, all our lagers are currently fermented in a 19c coldroom. 10 days fermenting & then 10 days at 1c before filtering & kegging/bottling
> The S-189 doesn't display any fruitiness or diaceytal. Perfect for Euro lagers
> 
> We do our Aussis style Ale/lagers with S-23 at 19c - Again no fruitiness at all, but we do get the ester character of the mainstream Aussie beers, so works great for the dreaded XXXX clones.
> ...




nice to hear... i'll be doing this with the S-189 on the next foray into lagers with a big batch of bohemian pils alongside a regular ale... excellent.


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## MarkBastard (19/11/10)

If you do ferment these lagers at 19 degrees can you get away with one dry sachet instead of needing two?


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## Bribie G (19/11/10)

I've been going a bit cooler (16 degrees) but I'll definitely do the 19 degrees next time. In the past I've had great results from a number of yeasts when I have either deliberately or accidentally fermented them way out of the "politically correct" temperature range - for example Wyeast Irish Ale made a killer Irish Red at 24 degrees when I lost my temp control for a couple of days.


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## jbirbeck (19/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I've been going a bit cooler (16 degrees) but I'll definitely do the 19 degrees next time. In the past I've had great results from a number of yeasts when I have either deliberately or accidentally fermented them way out of the "politically correct" temperature range - for example Wyeast Irish Ale made a killer Irish Red at 24 degrees when I lost my temp control for a couple of days.



Interesting that...I've just done a FES that is tasting amazing out of the fermenter and I had 1084 running at 25 

Keen to have a crack using s-189 at some point and would prefer to run it at a slighter higher temp so I can get more beer brewing at the same time - two fermenters in the fridge, one a lager and one an ale.


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## felten (19/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you do ferment these lagers at 19 degrees can you get away with one dry sachet instead of needing two?


If you're using the pitching rate calc you can set the drop down from lager to hybrid and it might give you a good place to start from.


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## Steve (19/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you do ferment these lagers at 19 degrees can you get away with one dry sachet instead of needing two?



i only ever used one


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## Ross (19/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you do ferment these lagers at 19 degrees can you get away with one dry sachet instead of needing two?




Absolutely - We are using 1 twin pack (rehydrated in warm water prior to pitching) for 50L. .

cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (19/11/10)

I dumped fresh wort onto a 34/70 yeast cake at the beginning of the week and the wort was 20C (yeast cake was also) and the whole thing exploded out the gladwrap and was halfway to FG in about 24 hours :huh: . Luckily it's super hopped with loads of late American hops - so any esters are probably appreciated.

I can't detect any fusels though. Does anyone know if a lager fermenting 7C above recommended is the same as an ale 7C above making fusels? Or is the only reason we brew lagers cooler to reduce esters only?


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## MarkBastard (19/11/10)

Cheers guys, there's another bonus then.

That makes lagers in line with ales from a cost and ease point of view because I usually fermenter ales for 10 days and cold crash for 10 days anyway.

Which means I'll be doing more lagers.


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## Ross (19/11/10)

If in any doubt mark, just head down to the brewery for a tasting....


cheers ross


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## Paul H (19/11/10)

Was there an hour ago, went with the intention of not succumbing to Ross's tasters but was very impressed particulalry with the czech pils they had on tap again S189 at 19C.

Cheers

Paul


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## earle (19/11/10)

Rooting Kings said:


> Interesting that...I've just done a FES that is tasting amazing out of the fermenter and I had 1084 running at 25
> 
> Keen to have a crack using s-189 at some point and would prefer to run it at a slighter higher temp so I can get more beer brewing at the same time - two fermenters in the fridge, one a lager and one an ale.



Have used s-189 at lager temps but reckon this is great. As with a couple of others posters it means I can do ales and lagers concurrently. Can fit 2+ fermenters in the fridge but the brews usually overlap in timing, waiting for an empty fridge to change the temp and switch to lagers is a PITA when you're trying to keep the brewing turning over.


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## bignath (19/11/10)

Ross, i hope you've got a few packets of S189 lying around! Looks like you'll be selling even more now.....


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## BjornJ (19/11/10)

I should have asked this before, shouldn't I!

I started a WLP800 Pilsner yeast up yesterday, will feed it until Sunday when I plan to brew again.

Wish I had the S-189 now..


Bjorn


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## BjornJ (19/11/10)

A quick phone call to Dave's homebrew and a look at the ESB web site shows no S-189.
And no time to order from Craftbrewer either.
Sounds like it will have to be the Pilsner yeast for this one.

Bjorn


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## Brewme (19/11/10)

Ross said:


> Yes, all our lagers are currently fermented in a 19c coldroom. 10 days fermenting & then 10 days at 1c before filtering & kegging/bottling
> The S-189 doesn't display any fruitiness or diaceytal. Perfect for Euro lagers
> 
> We do our Aussis style Ale/lagers with S-23 at 19c - Again no fruitiness at all, but we do get the ester character of the mainstream Aussie beers, so works great for the dreaded XXXX clones.
> ...




There's that word 'Filtering' again. Glad to see that professionals use them. Have read many posts from non-users that they are a waste of money.

I've used mine (from Craftbrewer) on 4 cloudy brews. They came out nice and clear. I still reckon if you took a sample of the Yarra River and put it through a filter, it would come out as clear as springwater.

Cheers


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## BobtheBrewer (19/11/10)

Brewme said:


> I still reckon if you took a sample of the Yarra River and put it through a filter, it would come out as clear as springwater.
> 
> Cheers




I'd like to see that, didn't know there was any water in the Yarra.


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## superjim (19/11/10)

It would have its work cut out with Adelaide tap water...


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## Brewman_ (19/11/10)

Quote Ross....
We do our Aussis style Ale/lagers with S-23 at 19c - Again no fruitiness at all, but we do get the ester character of the mainstream Aussie beers, so works great for the dreaded XXXX clones.

Cheers Ross
[/quote]


Hi Ross,

I normally associate Esters with Fruitiness - I know a bit of a generalisation. Not sure what you mean about the Ester Character of mainstream Aussie beers if its not fruity?

Fear 

Edit: something went wrong with the quote.


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## BjornJ (24/11/10)

I ended up not pitching the WLP800 Pilsner yeast, my lager is still in the cube waiting for the S-189.

Looking forward to trying a new yeast  

One thing though;

craftbrewer calls the S-189 Swiss Lager yeast: http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=842 
and gives temp 9-15 degrees C.




While beersmith calls S-189 a German lager yeast with temp range 8.9-13 degrees C.




The product sheet from the producer has the exact wording Craftbrewer has on the web shop: http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/CB/EN/Saflager_S-189_CB.pdf 


Is the beersmith info outdated or something?
Kind of sound like they are talking of two different S-189s...

Bjorn


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## deevee (28/11/10)

Has anyone used s189 to ferment at ale temps as discussed here for an ale. I'm planning to brew a lager and then reuse the yeast cake to brew an ale at 19c. Probably won't be the same as using say us05 but Hey it would still be clean.

Thoughts?


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## kelbygreen (28/11/10)

give it ago I am turning off us05 myself but hey its still good to start with I just find it strips alot of flavours maybe its just me but I done a double brew and split into 2 fermenters with US05 and muntons premium gold yeast and the muntons made a hell of alot nicer beer also the yeast dropped like a stone finished a point or so higher but it was far better in my mind.


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## Nick JD (28/11/10)

BjornJ said:


> Is the beersmith info outdated or something?
> Kind of sound like they are talking of two different S-189s...



If you're making a hoppy, fruity lager then s189 works fine at higher temps. If you are making a clean Euro lager I'd keep it at recommended temps.

I get quite a bit of esters from it at 16C. At 13-15C it ferments out just as quickly as at 18C. Remember Ross is using it at 19C to make XXXX, not Bo Pils (which it does a pretty decent job at considering).


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## TidalPete (28/11/10)

BjornJ said:


> I should have asked this before, shouldn't I!
> 
> I started a WLP800 Pilsner yeast up yesterday, will feed it until Sunday when I plan to brew again.
> 
> ...



If those dry yeasts were the be-all & end-all of everything (I use them on occasion) Wyeast, White labs, etc would have gone broke by now.  
Maybe, just perhaps, there's another reason some professional brewers like them?

TP


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## BjornJ (28/11/10)

Hi Nick,
thanks for letting me know that you get a bit of esters of it at 16.
Hmm, can't decide if I should go all-in at 19 or keep it down to 12 now..

The beer is ready in the NC cube, waiting for the yeast and I will have to decide then.




thanks
Bjorn


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## seemax (28/11/10)

Tried S-23 and S-189 at higher temps and wasn't too pleased with the results ... too fruity for me.

Wyeast 2112 would be a better choice IMO


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## Ross (29/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> Remember Ross is using it at 19C to make XXXX, not Bo Pils (which it does a pretty decent job at considering).




no - We do our XXXX clone with S-23, but we do our Boh Pils with S-189, both at 19c, The S189 (in our beers) displays no fruitiness at these temps. As I said in my opening post, perfect for Euro Lagers.



> If those dry yeasts were the be-all & end-all of everything (I use them on occasion) Wyeast, White labs, etc would have gone broke by now.
> Maybe, just perhaps, there's another reason some professional brewers like them?
> 
> TP



Dried yeasts are not the be all & end all of everything, but they are a bloody good yeast. In the AABC championships this year 3 out of the 4 winners in the lager classes used dry yeast.

Cheers Ross


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## Bribie G (29/11/10)

My Pale Continental Lager in the QABC (second place) was done on S-189 at around 16 degrees.


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## bconnery (29/11/10)

TidalPete said:


> If those dry yeasts were the be-all & end-all of everything (I use them on occasion) Wyeast, White labs, etc would have gone broke by now.
> Maybe, just perhaps, there's another reason some professional brewers like them?
> 
> TP


If those liquid yeasts were the be-all & end-all of everything (I use them on occasion) Fermentis, Danstar, etc would have gone broke by now.  
Maybe, just perhaps, there's another reason some professional brewers like them?


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## SpillsMostOfIt (29/11/10)

If those wild yeasts were the be-all & end-all of everything...


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## argon (29/11/10)

Ross said:


> Dried yeasts are not the be all & end all of everything, but they are a bloody good yeast. In the AABC championships this year 3 out of the 4 winners in the lager classes used dry yeast.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Good to know that.. cause i find making a starter large enough for a lager to be a PITA. Easier just to grab a double pack of dry lager yeast, reyhdrate and pitch


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## RobB (29/11/10)

deevee said:


> Has anyone used s189 to ferment at ale temps as discussed here for an ale. I'm planning to brew a lager and then reuse the yeast cake to brew an ale at 19c. Probably won't be the same as using say us05 but Hey it would still be clean.
> 
> Thoughts?



I've done this, although it was a bit cooler (16 degrees from memory). I would happily do it again.

If you have a favourite ale which you brew with US-05 at cooler temps (with the idea of the yeast being very neutral), then try it with the S-189 at the same temperature. I find the S-189 produces a much brighter, cleaner tasting beer and has the same level of attenuation. In particular, I find the malt character really shines when I use S-189. It will probably replace US-05 as my stand-by yeast, for both lagers and ales.


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## deevee (29/11/10)

Malty Cultural said:


> I've done this, although it was a bit cooler (16 degrees from memory). I would happily do it again.
> 
> If you have a favourite ale which you brew with US-05 at cooler temps (with the idea of the yeast being very neutral), then try it with the S-189 at the same temperature. I find the S-189 produces a much brighter, cleaner tasting beer and has the same level of attenuation. In particular, I find the malt character really shines when I use S-189. It will probably replace US-05 as my stand-by yeast, for both lagers and ales.



Thanks mate. This weekend I'm gonna brew a double batch of my apa and pitch us05 in one then s189 in another and see the differences then. Im a big fan of the 189 and have used it for a couple years, and I mainly brew lagers. But wouldn't mind some ales as well and I'm not really fussed on using a an ale yeast. That way I can reuse the yeast cake and brew a lager


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## BjornJ (30/11/10)

Got the yeast today, woohoo!

Jason got a pack for me as well, now he's saying to "go all in" and pitch at 19, even though this is higher than what I even do ales at.
Hmm, go nice and low at 12 seems to be out of the question, then what's the purpose of this experiment.

16 or 19... hmm..

Leaning towards 19 now, even though it sounds like madness.
But Ross should know what he is doing, so guessing that's where this is heading, eh?

Worst case scenario I'll do another one with the other pack at 15-16 and see if that works better.

Bjorn


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## Bribie G (30/11/10)

Have a number of posts been deleted from this thread from yesterday afternoon ????????? :huh: :huh: 

As I posted (which seems to have disappeared: )

I was at Craftbrewer today and sampled five or six beers made on S-23 and S-189 fermented at 19 degrees and all clean as a whistle. Including a Bohemian and a Schwartzbier and an American standard lager sort of Miller / Coors / Bud which didn't taste of much, but what it did taste of didn't include fruit  

I'm convinced.

Edit: one factor in the beers at Bacchus turning out so clean is obviously the strict cold crash / lagering regime where the beers get promptly trundled out of the 19 degree room and into the cold room for a specified period.


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## thesunsettree (30/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Have a number of posts been deleted from this thread from yesterday afternoon ????????? :huh: :huh:
> 
> As I posted (which seems to have disappeared: )
> 
> ...



bribie,

i too have tasted that schwarz, it is sensational. i looked at the recipe on cbrewer website and saw it used a lager yeast, as i brew ales and cant be arsed dropping my ferment fridge down i got somewhat despondent at not having a crack at that recipe. now knowing it was fermented at 19 (pretty much smack on my ferment fridge) its now GAME ON  .

cheers
matt 

p.s. how frickin good was that schwarz!!!


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## Nick JD (30/11/10)

Is that 19C in the fermenter, or in the air? 

Ross - can you give everyone a bit more informatuion on how to go about this? How long is the fermentation at 19C as opposed to 15C or 11C? 

What benefits does one hope to gain by fermenting at 19C except from fermentation speed? 

Why don't the commercials use similar temperatures with this yeast since it ferments so clean at ale temps?

Why not 23C? (although I suspect that's the fermentation temp in the fermenter anyway).

Do you high temp ferment with any other yeasts, and if so can you let us know the other yeasts where we can ignore the recommended temps and increase ferment speed with no affects?

Cheers.


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## thesunsettree (30/11/10)




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## winkle (30/11/10)

thesunsettree said:


> bribie,
> 
> i too have tasted that schwarz, it is sensational. i looked at the recipe on cbrewer website and saw it used a lager yeast, as i brew ales and cant be arsed dropping my ferment fridge down i got somewhat despondent at not having a crack at that recipe. now knowing it was fermented at 19 (pretty much smack on my ferment fridge) its now GAME ON  .
> 
> ...



Its ace, (hmmm, dry yeast at 19 C, shit even I'll have a go at it).


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## Nick JD (30/11/10)

winkle said:


> Its ace, (hmmm, dry yeast at 19 C, shit even I'll have a go at it).



Looks like you only have to use one packet at that temperature too. That's handy. 27L with only 1 packet is my kinda cheap!


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## Ross (30/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> Is that 19C in the fermenter, or in the air?
> 
> Ross - can you give everyone a bit more informatuion on how to go about this? How long is the fermentation at 19C as opposed to 15C or 11C?
> 
> ...




Nick,

The brewery we took over only has one fermenting room - it's air cooled & set to 19c. With the fans blowing i'd suspect the ferment sticks pretty close to the 19c, but may well rise a little above at the beginning.
the previous owners used to pitch just 15 grams into 50l, (beers still perfectly clean) but we've upped to 25 grams for 50L. All yeast is rehydrated in warm water before pitching.
Once fermented the beer is put in our conditioning cold room set at 1c for 10 days, before filtering & kegging/bottling.

cheers Ross


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## BjornJ (1/12/10)

Yesterday I got the S-189, and after going for a walk with my prettier half set about to pitch, still undecided on what temperature I would land on.

I washed and sanitised, hydrated the single 12 gr pack in 1.2 dl of lukewarm water. Left it for 30 min before stirring and then came back and stirred several times over the next half hour. I've read that hydrating in water is better than sprinkling it in the wort as the yeast then hydrates using wort and "stuff" can get through the cell wall of the yeasts cells before they are fully hydrated that shouldn't be inside the yeast.

Still undecided.. Poured the wort from the cube into the fermenter, splashed as much as I could. 
Put the fermenter and the yeast in the fridge for 20 mins to get back to 19 degrees.
What temp to use??! This is crazy, I can't ferment lagers at 3 degrees higher than I do ales! That's madness, madness I tell you!


But if Ross and BribieG both say it's nice and clean, they should know what they're on about..
Can it be like when shooting in a rifle, it has not one but two "sweet spots"? 
You aim a 7.62 mm in at 30 m and it will hit exactly there at 200 m as well as the projectile passes first over then under the line of sight.
Or at least that was the theory back when I did my conscription just before the Boer war.
Am I doing it wrong if going lower than 19 and not as low as 12??

To much back and forth, screw this.
Just pitch the damn yeast.


Ended up pitching at 19 degrees before chickening out and setting the fridge to 17 degrees.
Checked 1 hour later and the temp strip on the fermenter says 18-20 and the fridgemate 17.

The sensor of the fridgemate is under a piece of yoga mat for insulation, pressed against the wall of the fermenter held in place by a piece of elastic rope, halfway up. So the temp should be controlled pretty closely to 17 as fermentation starts and the temp rises. It's not in the fermenter but at least pressed against the fermenter outside with insulation on the outside so is not measuring only air temp.


Can't wait to see how this will turn out.
If it goes pear shaped I'll comfort myself with having the address of both Craftbrewer as well as BribieG in case I need to send bottles of foul beer anywhere  




Bjorn


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## Bribie G (1/12/10)

I bought a can of Coopers Cerveza to knock up a Xmas quickie with a mini rice n galaxy cereal mash BIAB on the side, and I have a nice Schott bottle full of S-189 slurry. Setting my fridge to 19 now.


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## rendo (1/12/10)

U got it in one!! madness it is  

So much so that I have jumped onto Craftbrewer last night and ordered some S-189 and a few other things,.....

cant wait to do this....but I am sure I will be fermenting at 11-12deg.....cant help it....i couldnt bring myself to do 17,18,19 etc...even though I know what has been said etc......MAYBE one day...just maybe I will try it

Am keen to hear your results...or even better, have a swig or two

Rendo



BjornJ said:


> That's madness, madness I tell you!
> 
> To much back and forth, screw this.
> Just pitch the damn yeast.


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## BjornJ (1/12/10)

Rendo,
come on buddy!!!
If I've forced myself to try this thing at 17, surely you can't be any worse?

We are breaking new ground here (ignoring the fact that everyone in Brisbane seems to have done so already).
If you want something to ferment at 12 degrees we have "normal" whitelabs stuff for that, let's go with the newfound optimism and go 17.

Or better still, I'll stay with my 17 and you do 19 and we'll have lunch again and compare  

1: you've posted on here that you are buying to try out but worried about the high temp
2: if you go low, it will be clean, big deal..
3: If you go high, you will either be able to say this works, or be one of us with 19-degree lagers.
4: but you will regret pitching at 12 and not testing for yourself... every day while it ferments, then when you bottle, then every time you get a bottle out you will hear my Norwegian accent saying "you know you zhould haive, A. but you chickened oout!!"


My argument to myself was that for $12 you get 2 x 12 gr of S-189, let's waste one in the name of (copy)science, hehe.

(he says proudly, hoping no one remembers the fact that he never did ferment it at 19..)

Bjorn





Bjorn


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## Nick JD (1/12/10)

Remember that Ross Cold Conditions for 10 days after the 19C ferment. This might be essential to the process and might eat up the time saved if you don't have the ability or space to chill it just above freezing for ten days.

Something to consider if you have the fridge space. I don't, and will continue to use s189 at 12C and then bottle straight after primary. 

If I had a fridge dedicated to CCing I'd do this for sure. Wouldn't be surprised if the conditioning cleans up most of the undesirable flavours from the ale temp ferment.


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## BjornJ (2/12/10)

Well, the beer is bubbling away happily at 17 degrees.

I'm planning to give it 10-14 days before dropping the temp to 0 for another 10-14 days.

Maybe it's time to get that filter fitted with tubing so I can use it?
Absolutely had to have it off ebay then put it in the cupboard for 3 months, so maybe it's time to try it out.


Can't wait to try this one out.

Bjorn


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## Bribie G (2/12/10)

14 days in primary would be overkill B)


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## BjornJ (2/12/10)

I'm sure you are right if thinking of reaching FG,
but I noticed Ross gave it 10 days at 19 so 14 at 17 should probably give the yeast plenty of time to clean up after itself?
Fermenting at such high temps probably is a good time to give the yeast some extra days to clean up.
This is all speculating of course, and counterproductive to the whole "fast lager" theme, but hey who cares..

Remember Butters used to say about his Milds "10 days from grains to brains" but I have never been able to achieve that.
Not having a kegging setup doesn't help of course.

Right now I am drinking a light beer I bottled 3 weeks ago, trying to recreate the recipe as the laptop it was on is gone.
Very cleverly I took a backup from Beersmith of all my recipes and play recipes only the week before and put it on the desktop but never emailed it off..

This light beer is quite nice actually, 50/50 light munich and pilsner malt, only 60 min bittering .
San Francisco lager yeast 2 weeks at 14 and 2 weeks at 0 degrees.
After only 3 weeks in the bottle it hopefully has some improving to do still, but it is quite clean and pleasant.
30 IBUs may have been a touch much at OG 1.030 but at the same time it leaves something behind where light beers often "just dissapear" of the palate.
If this Swiss Lager Yeast experiment doesn't pay off I will go back to experimenting with the San Francisco Lager yeast.
After this light beer I think this yeast really has potential at making clean lagers at say 14 degrees which is high enough(ish). 
(this is without racking or finings, just 2 weeks in primary at 14 and 2 weeks in primary at 0)


so either way I will be making a lager this summer I will enjoy, by the sound of things  

Bjorn


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## samhaldane (2/12/10)

I'm going to try this too. I have the ability to ferment a lager at cool temperatures but it would be nice to crank one out quicker.

I'm aiming to brew a Weyermann Pils & Motueka SMASH on Monday night and hopefully have it on tap in the kegerator on Christmas Day. Cutting it fine I know, but if it still needs some time I'll just let it lager for another week and have it on tap for new years.


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## BjornJ (2/12/10)

sounds nice, please let us know how it goes.
Would be good to get some feedback posted back on here when those of us trying the S-189 at higher temps than normal get to taste the results.

Bjorn


----------



## samhaldane (2/12/10)

BjornJ said:


> sounds nice, please let us know how it goes.



Will do. I should have said in my last post I intend to report back with how it goes.

Looking forward to hearing how yours turns out Bjorn.

I don't actually have a filter, so it will be interesting to see how it matures unfiltered compared to yours which will be filtered. I am using koppafloc for the first time on recommendation and will try and nail my mash ph so hopefully it will clear out OK with some time at 0C.


----------



## BjornJ (2/12/10)

sounds great, looking forward to a test report.

if you're in Newtown, maybe we should organize a little tasting test?

Both tumi2 and I work in Australian Technology Park in Eveleigh/Redfern and we are both making lagers at the moment.

Would be fun to compare results.
Tumi2 is using a WLP800 (pilsner yeast) which he has made some great beers with in the past.
Would be fun to compare round a table WLP800 at lager temps and 4 weeks of lagering at 1 degree against our attempts at S-189?
Tumi2 got 'honorable mention' for his Pilsner with WLP800 at the Castle Hills show, so a good benchmark for sure.

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## kelbygreen (2/12/10)

I like this not for the fact that it doesnt take as long but I could brew a lager and ale at the same time which I always find it really hard to put a lager down as dont have the time to do them also I have 2 fridges but 1 temp control lol so if ones stuck fermenting a lager then I dont have space for another beer unless its a lager then my other fridge only fits 1 fermenter in so that makes it another problem haha


----------



## BjornJ (2/12/10)

good point, eh!

Put down a lager "Ross style" using S-189 at 17-19 degrees.
The next week chuck a fermenter with an ale in the fridge, leaving both beers for another week.
Next weekend drop the temp to 0 and leave for a week or two.

Now bottle in one go on the Saturday and brew on the Sunday if possible and you have done the complete cycle of brewing two beers and just pitched the third in one month.

We need to either get more friends or increase the consumption to keep the bottle supply ready for bottling!

Bjorn


----------



## samhaldane (2/12/10)

BjornJ said:


> if you're in Newtown, maybe we should organize a little tasting test?



Sounds great!

I guess some time between xmas and new years would be good, or early in the new year.


----------



## BjornJ (2/12/10)

we're shut down over Christmas, but let's aim for a wee tasting session in January.

Will PM you.
Bjorn


----------



## rendo (3/12/10)

ahhhhhh OKAY then! 

hahaha....I dont want a 'Norwegian accent saying "you know you zhould haive, A. but you chickened oout!!"' haunting me each time I drink a brew....

Your points are valid, why not have a bit of fun with an experiment....DONE...

Well I hopefully will be putting the brew down this weekend, so it should be bottled, matured and ready for drinking sometime in Jan....

Hilarious!



BjornJ said:


> Rendo,
> come on buddy!!!
> If I've forced myself to try this thing at 17, surely you can't be any worse?
> 
> ...


----------



## BjornJ (12/12/10)

Just a quick update,
the lager has now been 12 days at 17 degrees. I racked to a cube after 7 days to get it off the majority of the yeast as I want to reuse the yeast and add finings later to the secondary.
Will drop temp today.

When dropping the temp I just turn the fridgemate to 0 degrees and let it crash chill.

But I remember reading somewhere about dropping the temp first to 5 degrees, not to shock the yeast into secreting something-or-other that could be bad for head formation.
Then when the beer was at 5 degrees drop a degree a day.

Does anyone else do that, or just drop it as cold as possible in one go?


thanks
Bjorn


----------



## BjornJ (27/1/11)

I've had a couple of bottles of this one after a month in the bottle or so.
It's ok, but not that great.
It is pretty fruity to me.

Brought it to the NBBC meeting on the 22nd of January and most people there seemed to like it.
So maybe it's just me  

Will try it again later before I decide if wanting to try this again or not.

Bjorn


----------



## Nick JD (27/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> I've had a couple of bottles of this one after a month in the bottle or so.
> It's ok, but not that great.
> It is pretty fruity to me.
> 
> ...



I get fruity with S189 above 15C. I ferment it at 12C and it takes less than 10 days (inc. a rest @ 20C). 

If you're banging in a shedload of NZ/USA hops late then they will overpower the yeast's fruitiness ... but for a clean Euro lager I've found 189 works best in the range the manufacturer recommends (12C). YMMV.


----------



## samhaldane (27/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> I get fruity with S189 above 15C. I ferment it at 12C and it takes less than 10 days (inc. a rest @ 20C).



Do you find you need to lager it for a time after that Nick?

I didn't have very good results with mine fermented at 19C. I fermented for 10 days, then chilled down to 1C for 10 days, then kegged. It has been sitting in the kegerator for a month now, and it has only just lost the sulfur that was very obvious a week after kegging, and is only just starting to clear up (I didn't filter). The yeast character is still quite obvious and fruity.

Filtering would probably help.


----------



## Nick JD (27/1/11)

haldini said:


> Do you find you need to lager it for a time after that Nick?



I don't do the whole lagering thing. Just gelatine and polyclar at 20C after the diacetyl rest (and that I do more to "finish it off" the last point or two of gravity).

S189 works fine at 19C, but I've found I might as well use an Ale yeast because the results are very similar. I reckon you get a cleaner "lager" at 19C with US05 than with S189. 

Ross is a much, much better brewer than I - so this is only worth the 2c it was printed on - but this is what I've found in my case.


----------



## canon1ball (27/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> Brought it to the NBBC meeting on the 22nd of January and most people there seemed to like it.
> So maybe it's just me



Save one for me, didn't get to try it. 
Forgot to ask you about this brew/yeast at the meeting and was about to ask when this thread popped up again.

Peter


----------



## Ross (27/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> I don't do the whole lagering thing. Just gelatine and polyclar at 20C after the diacetyl rest (and that I do more to "finish it off" the last point or two of gravity).
> 
> S189 works fine at 19C, but I've found I might as well use an Ale yeast because the results are very similar. I reckon you get a cleaner "lager" at 19C with US05 than with S189.
> 
> Ross is a much, much better brewer than I - so this is only worth the 2c it was printed on - but this is what I've found in my case.




Behave yourself Nick  .... Johann is our brewer not me  

We are brewing 100L to 200L a day using S-189 & S-23 & can only report our results. A good selection of the beers are on tap at the brewery for anyone to try & make their own judgement.

+++

Haldini.... I've never experienced sulphur from $-189, I reckon you may have other issues with that particular brew.

cheers Ross...


----------



## Bribie G (27/1/11)

BribieG said:


> I bought a can of Coopers Cerveza to knock up a Xmas quickie with a mini rice n galaxy cereal mash BIAB on the side, and I have a nice Schott bottle full of S-189 slurry. Setting my fridge to 19 now.


My Cerveza pimped - up can worked great on S-189 at 19 degrees, friends and family emptied the keg very quickly - however I did get a bit of sulphur but similar to commercial Australian Lagers so it wasn't really out of place. It was commented that it was just like a pub beer (is that a compliment ?) :huh: I've got a Chinese Saaz (new crop) lager in there at the moment on a fresh foil of S-189. I ran this one at 15 for a week and have turned it up to 19 for a few days then into the lagering fridge for 10 and see how that goes. I just had a sniff in the fermenting fridge and not obvious sulphur this time around.


----------



## samhaldane (27/1/11)

Ross said:


> Haldini.... I've never experienced sulphur from $-189, I reckon you may have other issues with that particular brew.



Good to know Ross, thanks.

It could be the salt additions I made, which I found to be quite large to get a full volume BIAB mash of only pilsner malt down to the right pH, which is a topic for another thread.


----------



## BjornJ (27/1/11)

thanks for the feedback, guys.

Maybe I should try it again and do 15 degrees, if that works I could try it warmer later if necessary.

Jason did it at 19 though and he says it turned out nice.

Been looking at that kg of flaked rice still in the cupboard, urging me to do a rice lager again.
Maybe that's where there the last S-189 foil pack is going.

Peter,
will save you a bottle for sure.
They're not going down very fast at mine, so far I think I have only had 2-3 plus the couple I brought to the meeting on Saturday  
We should actually try them together, Jason's one with S-189 at 19 and mine at 17.


thanks
Bjorn


----------



## Nick JD (27/1/11)

Ross said:


> Behave yourself Nick  .... Johann is our brewer not me



How much S189 does Johann pitch, Ross?


----------



## Ross (27/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> How much S189 does Johann pitch, Ross?




1 twin pack in approx 55L

Cheers Ross


----------



## mckenry (27/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> How much S189 does Johann pitch, Ross?



I'll think you'll find 25g/50L from earlier post. Rehydrated too.


----------



## Duff (27/1/11)

Ross said:


> We are brewing 100L to 200L a day...



Wow.


----------



## BjornJ (29/1/11)

Cracked another bottle of the lager with S-189 today....


...


..

Wow.

Only been brewing for 2 years.
My wife never likes my beers.
Too hoppy, too roasty, not enough carbonation, always something or other.
I take it as encouragement, meaning my beers do not taste like Toohey's New or VB.


Today she had a taste of this lager and liked it. So much she won't give the glass back  

Big moment, actually brewed a beer my wife enjoyed!

I still think it is too fruity, but will try it again at maybe a lower temp.

70% pilsner malt
16% munich
6% carapils
8% sugar (half/half dextrose and cane sugar, ran out of dextrose)

5 min at 55 degrees, 85 mins at 66.

S-189 at 17 degrees.

A winner on the domestic front  



Bjorn


----------



## Nevalicious (29/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> Cracked another bottle of the lager with S-189 today....
> 
> 
> ...
> ...



Awesome stuff. Its a definite win when you brew a beer your wife will drink. 

What hops did you use in this bad boy!??

Tyler


----------



## BjornJ (29/1/11)

ah, forgot that part!

I used Northern Brewer at 60 min to 29 IBUs.
Only bittering, no aroma or flavour hops.


OG 1.046
FG 1.012
alc 4.4% plus bottle conditioning so 3.4% alc 

Everyone knows bottle conditoning takes off a % to make the bubbles.  



Bjorn

edited to add the gravities.


----------



## raven19 (30/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> alc 4.4% plus bottle conditioning so 3.4% alc
> 
> Everyone knows bottle conditoning takes off a % to make the bubbles.



Priming sugar adds about 0.5% alcohol give or take depending on priming sugar levels.

Edit - I have a schwarzbier fermenting warmer with S189 atm too. Looking forward to sampling it soon.


----------



## Bribie G (30/1/11)

Well tomorrow is the big day when I put my S-189 at 19 degrees beer into cold conditioning for ten days then keg. 

*Chinese Lager - Strong International Lager*

4.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 70.18 % 
1.00 kg Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 17.54 % 
0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.77 % 
0.20 kg White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.51 % 

60.00 gm Saaz Chinese [3.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.1 IBU *New Season * B) 
60.00 gm Saaz Chinese [3.00 %] (10 min) Hops 6.6 IBU 

1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc 
1 Pkgs SafLager Swiss Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager 

Nothing but the best procedure for the best ingredients I say. 
This should really test it out.


----------



## under (30/1/11)

Ive been doing this with S189 at 12-14 degrees. Its a hit with everyone who drinks it. Nice, clean and dry.

Recipe: 34 - Aussie Draught
Brewer: Dazza
Asst Brewer: 
Style: German Pilsner (Pils)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 26.33 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 4.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 18.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.42 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EGrain 81.14 % 
0.28 kg Carapils / Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 6.69 % 
17.00 gm Pride of Ringwood (Flowers) [9.80 %] (60 Hops 18.1 IBU 
0.51 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 12.16 % 
1 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager


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## deevee (30/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> Bjorn, describe this fruit flavour please? I've been using 189 for years and it's the only yeast I use now, even for brewing ale type beers although I brew lagers 90% of the time.
> 
> Thanks daisy.


----------



## Paul H (30/1/11)

BribieG said:


> 60.00 gm Saaz Chinese [3.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.1 IBU *New Season * B)



& there's a difference in the quality between the new season & old season? I thought the importer had gone to ground?

Cheers

Paul


----------



## BjornJ (30/1/11)

deevee said:


> BjornJ said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Daisy,
> ...


----------



## BjornJ (30/1/11)

just had Brendan from the brew club and a mate of his drop by and try the S-189 lager.
The friend thought it was ok, Brendan felt it was way to fruity for a lager but not quite a pale ale fruity.


----------



## felten (31/1/11)

Paul H said:


> & there's a difference in the quality between the new season & old season? I thought the importer had gone to ground?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Paul


Just migrated to another forum


----------



## Bribie G (31/1/11)

So far it seems good - heaps of aroma out of the kettle but lagering -> kegging -> drinking will tell.


----------



## deevee (31/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> It's just fruity, more like a pale ale than a lager? Not sure how to describe, it starts out ok then becomes a little "ale like" if that makes sense.
> 
> Whould you mind writing a little about your experiences with the S-189?
> Temperatures, lagering times, does it make a difference (flavour wise ) if filtering or not, etc.




Oh I like the idea of a Ale like" beer because my last batch I made an ale and instead of using US-05, thought give the 189 a go at 16-18c. Tastes Ale like to me but still has that clean lagery character.


I've used S189 for about 5 years now and mainly brew lagers. However as some of the guys in the Canberra Brewers would know my methods, I'm a "Lazy Lager" brewer. As in I don't follow the conventional lagering technique. I pitch the yeast at around 18 - 24 depending on whether it is winter or summer, obviosuly my immersion element will not cool it down past 26c in summer. Eventually the beer will ferment at 12-14c in the fermenting fridge until complete. Then I would transfer into kegs but also prime my kegs with dextrose. I have force carbed sometimes but fine that in my case, the beers tasted better primed. So once kegged, would leave it at room temp (anywhere from 12 - 20c) for a couple weeks. Then fridge for a day or two, open lid, add gelatin solution (1 tsp in 100ml cooled boiled water), reseal. Leave a couple of days and drink beer clears up after a couple of schooners). I always have some kegs conditioning so I'm not in a rush to drink a new batch.

That is all I do. I have used liquid lager yeasts like Budvar but find it doesn't give the best results with my method, however it is better when lagered correctly at cold temps. And in saying that, I find that yeast when treated correctly is similar to 189 anyway. So 189 is so much easier to use and handle and temp fluctuations doesn't seem to hurt it at all. Sulfur and diacetyl is so minimal in 189 I find in the end product.

I don't filter or anything like that. Just simple stuff here. And years ago I used to do various styles, now I just make beers I really like to drink, and that is lagers and S189 is all I use.

cheers Daisy


----------



## Nick JD (31/1/11)

How long is it taking you fellas at 12C to ferment out S189 in a 1.050 SG? 

It takes me the same time as what people are saying for 19C - which surely brings up the question of, Why the need for 19C? 

Am I missing something? I'm all for pushing shortcuts in brewing if they have minimal impact but I'm not getting the need for 19C.


----------



## dougsbrew (31/1/11)

hi there bjorn, i too last night had a win when i handed my latest s-189 to the missus and got a thumbs up, 
was a little like vb which she likes, i used mostly munich1, wheat, pilsner, and hopped with por. 
this is a good sign that our brews must be getting better.


----------



## samhaldane (31/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> How long is it taking you fellas at 12C to ferment out S189 in a 1.050 SG?



How much yeast do you pitch in that wort at that temp Nick?


----------



## Nick JD (31/1/11)

haldini said:


> How much yeast do you pitch in that wort at that temp Nick?



1 packet at 20-24C brought down to 12C within 12-18 hours (coinciding with active fermentation beginning). I'm basically following Wyeast's recommendations to have the wort in the early 20s for the yeast in its aerobic growth phase.


----------



## Bribie G (31/1/11)

The 19 degrees is, of course, pushing it but it's the temperature that Bacchus Brewing keep their ferm room for all the brews and I guess that didn't happen overnight (picture graph of Bacchus temperatures over the last couple of years wandering up and down and finally stabilising at 19 )  

So I guess the 19 is a sort of "Ross Benchmark Gold Standard" or something. I always get sulphur with S-189 even at 16 degrees and wonder if I'm doing something wrong - maybe should aerate more or use some nutrient - as Ross says definitely no sulphur at his temps and his beers on tap don't have that sulphur background.


----------



## DJR (31/1/11)

BribieG said:


> The 19 degrees is, of course, pushing it but it's the temperature that Bacchus Brewing keep their ferm room for all the brews and I guess that didn't happen overnight (picture graph of Bacchus temperatures over the last couple of years wandering up and down and finally stabilising at 19 )
> 
> So I guess the 19 is a sort of "Ross Benchmark Gold Standard" or something. I always get sulphur with S-189 even at 16 degrees and wonder if I'm doing something wrong - maybe should aerate more or use some nutrient - as Ross says definitely no sulphur at his temps and his beers on tap don't have that sulphur background.



Pitch rate? One pack in 23L?


----------



## argon (31/1/11)

BribieG said:


> The 19 degrees is, of course, pushing it but it's the temperature that Bacchus Brewing keep their ferm room for all the brews and I guess that didn't happen overnight (picture graph of Bacchus temperatures over the last couple of years wandering up and down and finally stabilising at 19 )
> 
> So I guess the 19 is a sort of "Ross Benchmark Gold Standard" or something. I always get sulphur with S-189 even at 16 degrees and wonder if I'm doing something wrong - maybe should aerate more or use some nutrient - as Ross says definitely no sulphur at his temps and his beers on tap don't have that sulphur background.




I'm interested in doing the 19C for s189 thing... but at Bachus where do the fermenters sit? on the ground on concrete? I know the air temp may be 19C but what temp is the wort at and how does thermal lag of the surrounding mass effect the temps? Probably should just go have a look, but it's an interesting factor to consider. I consider that 19C in my ferm fridge with the probe stuck on the side of the fermenter may not be the same as 19C in Ross' cold room.

(Trying very hard not to sound critical... just would like some further info  )


----------



## BjornJ (31/1/11)

Hi Daisy,
thanks for writing that up.
Sounds like you're getting good results with the S-189, all right if that's the yeast you ended up with re-brewing with again and again.

Sounds like you're pitching warmer than I did but then letting it go down to 12-14 which should be cleaner than the 17 I fermented at.

thanks
Bjorn





deevee said:


> Oh I like the idea of a Ale like" beer because my last batch I made an ale and instead of using US-05, thought give the 189 a go at 16-18c. Tastes Ale like to me but still has that clean lagery character.
> 
> 
> I've used S189 for about 5 years now and mainly brew lagers. However as some of the guys in the Canberra Brewers would know my methods, I'm a "Lazy Lager" brewer. As in I don't follow the conventional lagering technique. I pitch the yeast at around 18 - 24 depending on whether it is winter or summer, obviosuly my immersion element will not cool it down past 26c in summer. Eventually the beer will ferment at 12-14c in the fermenting fridge until complete. Then I would transfer into kegs but also prime my kegs with dextrose. I have force carbed sometimes but fine that in my case, the beers tasted better primed. So once kegged, would leave it at room temp (anywhere from 12 - 20c) for a couple weeks. Then fridge for a day or two, open lid, add gelatin solution (1 tsp in 100ml cooled boiled water), reseal. Leave a couple of days and drink beer clears up after a couple of schooners). I always have some kegs conditioning so I'm not in a rush to drink a new batch.
> ...


----------



## BjornJ (31/1/11)

Hi Daisy,
thanks for writing that up.
Sounds like you're getting good results with the S-189, all right if that's the yeast you ended up with re-brewing with again and again.

Sounds like you're pitching warmer than I did but then letting it go down to 12-14 which should be cleaner than the 17 I fermented at.

thanks
Bjorn





deevee said:


> Oh I like the idea of a Ale like" beer because my last batch I made an ale and instead of using US-05, thought give the 189 a go at 16-18c. Tastes Ale like to me but still has that clean lagery character.
> 
> 
> I've used S189 for about 5 years now and mainly brew lagers. However as some of the guys in the Canberra Brewers would know my methods, I'm a "Lazy Lager" brewer. As in I don't follow the conventional lagering technique. I pitch the yeast at around 18 - 24 depending on whether it is winter or summer, obviosuly my immersion element will not cool it down past 26c in summer. Eventually the beer will ferment at 12-14c in the fermenting fridge until complete. Then I would transfer into kegs but also prime my kegs with dextrose. I have force carbed sometimes but fine that in my case, the beers tasted better primed. So once kegged, would leave it at room temp (anywhere from 12 - 20c) for a couple weeks. Then fridge for a day or two, open lid, add gelatin solution (1 tsp in 100ml cooled boiled water), reseal. Leave a couple of days and drink beer clears up after a couple of schooners). I always have some kegs conditioning so I'm not in a rush to drink a new batch.
> ...


----------



## BjornJ (31/1/11)

dougsbrew said:


> hi there bjorn, i too last night had a win when i handed my latest s-189 to the missus and got a thumbs up,
> was a little like vb which she likes, i used mostly munich1, wheat, pilsner, and hopped with por.
> this is a good sign that our brews must be getting better.




Good stuff!
I brew for me, and don't really mind that the guys in the brew club always give me shit for not brewing strong enough beers  
Same at home, usually there is always something "non normal" with my brews.

But it certainly was fun when the wife for once actually looked impressed and said I finally had made a normal, nice beer.

Bjorn


----------



## Bribie G (31/1/11)

My first APA before Xmas was cleaned out by gen Y's who were amazed that someone could actually make *Fat Yak* in the garage  

New clubbing and student beer up here, good on yer kids give TED and Blonde the arse. Hope yet.


----------



## Howlingdog (31/1/11)

BribieG said:


> My first APA before Xmas was cleaned out by gen Y's who were amazed that someone could actually make *Fat Yak* in the garage
> 
> New clubbing and student beer up here, good on yer kids give TED and Blonde the arse. Hope yet.



wasting your time in a call centre Bribie, start a BIAB night club on the island - save all the travelling (for work that is).


----------



## deevee (31/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> Hi Daisy,
> thanks for writing that up.
> Sounds like you're getting good results with the S-189, all right if that's the yeast you ended up with re-brewing with again and again.
> 
> ...




Yeah I haven't brewed a beer over 14c until my last effort - the Ale using 189 at 18c. But maybe there is a little fruit in my beers, but over the years my club members have always commenetd on how clean my beer is. So I guess what I'm doing works. An award for best Pale Lager in 2009 as well for my Boh Pils so I must be doing something right.


----------



## Tilt (19/10/11)

Dredging up this topic but hoping for some words of wisdom from those who've had the experience.

Does S-189 fermented at 19 degrees work for 1070ish IPAs?

I'm looking for a clean yeast that:
1. will let the malt and hops shine through without a lot of yeast character (happy with a little fruitiness - but not a lot)
2. can ferment at 17-20degrees (as it has to share a ferment fridge with another ale) 
3. ....and here's the kicker.... I want to use something other than S05 for a change.

Would S-189 do the biz or am I barking up the wrong tree?

If S-189s out - what else would be good?
Thanks


----------



## BjornJ (2/1/12)

tilt said:


> Dredging up this topic but hoping for some words of wisdom from those who've had the experience.
> 
> Does S-189 fermented at 19 degrees work for 1070ish IPAs?
> 
> ...





May be way to late to reply, but just wanted to suggest WLP007:
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp007.html 

I've used it found it to be a clean, fast yeast that fermented a big beer out really well.


Bjorn


----------



## Tilt (4/1/12)

BjornJ said:


> May be way to late to reply, but just wanted to suggest WLP007:
> http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp007.html
> 
> I've used it found it to be a clean, fast yeast that fermented a big beer out really well.
> ...



Thanks Bjorn - I ended up using s05 after all that - but am still keen to try something else at some stage.
I'll look into your suggestion - and see if I can get hold of WL yeast - AFAIK there isn't anyone currently importing their yeasts into NZ.
The attraction of S-189 was that its dry and probably travels a little better if I have to get some sent over.
Cheers


----------



## iralosavic (4/1/12)

BribieG said:


> My first APA before Xmas was cleaned out by gen Y's who were amazed that someone could actually make *Fat Yak* in the garage
> 
> New clubbing and student beer up here, good on yer kids give TED and Blonde the arse. Hope yet.



This is the challenge I am currently faced with. TEDs especially. The kids just like a very light bodied beer that can be smashed down ice cold one after the other, after the other, after the other etc.


----------



## mckenry (13/11/13)

Thought I'd tack this Q onto this thread as its pretty much what I was searching for.

So, with Xmas fast approaching and 20 guests heading my way, I need to brew 2 kegs worth by 6th December.
My plan is to do the one grain bill and split it two ways.
Make a simple lager for those that aren't adventurous and an APA a bit towards the hoppier end. (I have a hefe ready to go, so that will be 3 kegs all up)
I'm going to no chill both and cube hop the APA, maybe dry as well.
I need to ferment them both at the same time, so I am thinking 1272 for the APA as I already have a smack pack, but was thinking a Danish Lager (Danish/Swiss - they're the same aren't they?  ) 2042 for the lager. 
I am thinking about 16° for the both. Now, Danish 2042 is recommended 13° tops but there's a California Lager and a Bohemian that have tops recommended at 20° and 22° respectively. I expect I'll get either of these last 2 lager strains.

Here's my question(s)
Anyone done this or does anyone have any better ideas?


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## DJR (13/11/13)

I would ignore the temperature on the Bohemian 2124, this is noted on one of the yeast manufacturers sites as "can also be used for pseudo ale production at high temps" - basically this is intended for breweries who want to use a single strain for all batches to be able to make something tasting like an ale with a lager yeast.

For a lager at high temps go the Californian, I know of someone who has multiple lager trophies to his name that pretty much only uses that. Another good choice for a reasonably high temperature lager-like finish is WLP029 kolsch (will still be fruity though) or WLP833 is not bad at higher temps either. 

If you do a Kolsch or something similarly light and mild flavoured it'll probably go down better than calling something a lager and it isn't totally bland and tasteless like people are used to. Needs lots of sugar to get it to finish as dry as most aussie lagers (and not hoppy either, most are around 15-20 IBU).

S189 isn't Danish lager btw, S189 is a Hurlimann strain and 2042 Danish is Carlsberg


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## mckenry (13/11/13)

DJR said:


> I would ignore the temperature on the Bohemian 2124, this is noted on one of the yeast manufacturers sites as "can also be used for pseudo ale production at high temps" - basically this is intended for breweries who want to use a single strain for all batches to be able to make something tasting like an ale with a lager yeast.
> 
> For a lager at high temps go the Californian, I know of someone who has multiple lager trophies to his name that pretty much only uses that. Another good choice for a reasonably high temperature lager-like finish is WLP029 kolsch (will still be fruity though) or WLP833 is not bad at higher temps either.
> 
> ...


Cheers for the advice DJR. Why do you say ignore the temp of the Bohemian? Its listed as 22°, which is good for ale like beers and I want to ferment at around 16 anyway.
I like the idea of a Kolsch too. Hadnt thought of that, but cant get Whitelabs where I am going, but I could find the equiv Wyeast I'd reckon.
And yep, I knew S189 was swiss, but Wyeast only has a Danish - I was just messing around, Kiwi/Aus, Dane/Swiss kinda thing, seeing as I was posting in a Swiss Lager thread.


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## MCHammo (13/11/13)

mckenry said:


> Cheers for the advice DJR. Why do you say ignore the temp of the Bohemian? Its listed as 22°, which is good for ale like beers and I want to ferment at around 16 anyway.
> I like the idea of a Kolsch too. Hadnt thought of that, but cant get Whitelabs where I am going, but I could find the equiv Wyeast I'd reckon.
> And yep, I knew S189 was swiss, but Wyeast only has a Danish - I was just messing around, Kiwi/Aus, Dane/Swiss kinda thing, seeing as I was posting in a Swiss Lager thread.


Are you confusing Switzerland with Sweden?


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## mckenry (13/11/13)

MCHammo said:


> Are you confusing Switzerland with Sweden?


haha, no, theyre the same :lol:


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## Bribie G (13/11/13)

I've made two megalagers recently with S-189 (ordered in error, I was after S-23) and also Wyeast Danish. I did the same fermentation schedule with both, pitched at 13, fermented for about five days then allowed to rise to 19 (edit: over the course of another five days) then lagered for a week. You should definitely be able to crank one out long before Xmas.

The S-189 took third in the NSW pale lagers this year and the Danish got second place in the Nats pale lagers.

The S-189 one is definitely a bit fruitier but quite in style.


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## MCHammo (13/11/13)

mckenry said:


> haha, no, theyre the same :lol:


I suppose so. There's only 1000-2500km, a few countries, a sea and a dozen langues separating them. :huh:


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## mckenry (14/11/13)

Bribie G said:


> I've made two megalagers recently with S-189 (ordered in error, I was after S-23) and also Wyeast Danish. I did the same fermentation schedule with both, pitched at 13, fermented for about five days then allowed to rise to 19 (edit: over the course of another five days) then lagered for a week. You should definitely be able to crank one out long before Xmas.
> 
> The S-189 took third in the NSW pale lagers this year and the Danish got second place in the Nats pale lagers.
> 
> The S-189 one is definitely a bit fruitier but quite in style.


Thanks Bribie


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## mckenry (14/11/13)

MCHammo said:


> I suppose so. There's only 1000-2500km, a few countries, a sea and a dozen langues separating them. :huh:


STOP! MCHammo time.

Mate, seriously, read my posts closely. I was taking the piss about the scandanavian area and some peoples lack of knowledge about it.. There is no reason to think I was confusing Switzerland with Sweden. Where was Sweden brought into it?
Dont be so literal. Maybe you are from the area and English is your second language. If thats the case, relax, I'm taking the piss out of my culture, not ABBA's.


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## MCHammo (14/11/13)

mckenry said:


> STOP! MCHammo time.
> 
> Mate, seriously, read my posts closely. I was taking the piss about the scandanavian area and some peoples lack of knowledge about it.. There is no reason to think I was confusing Switzerland with Sweden. Where was Sweden brought into it?
> Dont be so literal. Maybe you are from the area and English is your second language. If thats the case, relax, I'm taking the piss out of my culture, not ABBA's.


At first I thought you may have been genuinely confused, as Switzerland isn't anywhere near Scandinavia (or Denmark). Sweden is, and some people do confuse them.

That last post was in jest.


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## Black n Tan (14/11/13)

DJR said:


> If you do a Kolsch or something similarly light and mild flavoured it'll probably go down better than calling something a lager and it isn't totally bland and tasteless like people are used to. Needs lots of sugar to get it to finish as dry as most aussie lagers (and not hoppy either, most are around 15-20 IBU).


I would go the Kolsch route also. I use yeast 2565 at 15C and it gives just a very slight hint of fruit. I think 16C would also be fine.


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## mckenry (14/11/13)

MCHammo said:


> At first I thought you may have been genuinely confused, as Switzerland isn't anywhere near Scandinavia (or Denmark). Sweden is, and some people do confuse them. That last post was in jest.


Yep, quite often sarcasm / humour gets missed on the net. I can see how you might think I didnt know, but I am well aware of the geography. My S.I.L is Danish, and I have travelled through most of the areas mentioned.
For the record;
S189 = Swiss lager
Wyeast 2042 = Danish Lager

This thread, about Swiss lager at 19° was started by a Dane (IIRC)


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## Bribie G (14/11/13)

Love those Slovakian hops, particulary Bobek and Aurora.


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## DJR (20/11/13)

mckenry said:


> Cheers for the advice DJR. Why do you say ignore the temp of the Bohemian? Its listed as 22°, which is good for ale like beers and I want to ferment at around 16 anyway.
> I like the idea of a Kolsch too. Hadnt thought of that, but cant get Whitelabs where I am going, but I could find the equiv Wyeast I'd reckon.
> And yep, I knew S189 was swiss, but Wyeast only has a Danish - I was just messing around, Kiwi/Aus, Dane/Swiss kinda thing, seeing as I was posting in a Swiss Lager thread.


Like i said the upper temp range is for pseudo ale production. At 15 or 16 though it's probably still OK.

as for kolsch the wlp029 is good from a flocculation perspective, wyeast 2565 is incredibly dusty and hard to settle. Wyeast 2575 if you can find it (it was a seasonal from april-june) is fantastic flavour wise and also settles a little better, that'd be my preference if you can get it, WLP036/WY1007 also does a good job. Even US05 (keep it cold, 16C) makes a decent enough Kolsch with a good recipe.


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## mckenry (20/11/13)

DJR said:


> Like i said the upper temp range is for pseudo ale production. At 15 or 16 though it's probably still OK.
> 
> as for kolsch the wlp029 is good from a flocculation perspective, wyeast 2565 is incredibly dusty and hard to settle. Wyeast 2575 if you can find it (it was a seasonal from april-june) is fantastic flavour wise and also settles a little better, that'd be my preference if you can get it, WLP036/WY1007 also does a good job. Even US05 (keep it cold, 16C) makes a decent enough Kolsch with a good recipe.


Thanks,
What was available and what I ended up doing has just been posted to the 'what are you brewing III' thread here


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## Keppmiestet (21/11/13)

I use wyeast Californian lager 2112 yeast for warmer fermenting but still keeps a lager taste . Great in steam beer, trying it now in an American style pilsner fermenting between 18 to 20 degrees , cool as I can keep it with this warmer weather.


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## Liam_snorkel (13/3/14)

Last three brews I've used S189 at ale temps (17deg). The last two were repitches of 1/2 cup of slurry. 
Current batch (schwarzbier) has gone from 1.049 to 1.011 in 2.5 days since pitching. 
I'm enjoying the results so far. All three have had either plenty of hops or roast malt, so any off flavours which may be there aren't detectable to me.


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## mckenry (13/3/14)

mckenry said:


> Thanks,
> What was available and what I ended up doing has just been posted to the 'what are you brewing III' thread here


Saw this thread and thought I should update. The American lager 2035 at 16deg was a failure. Started off ok, but aged into fruit cup cordial. Ergh. S189 might like it but 2035 doesn't.


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## mckenry (26/3/14)

mckenry said:


> Saw this thread and thought I should update. The American lager 2035 at 16deg was a failure. Started off ok, but aged into fruit cup cordial. Ergh. S189 might like it but 2035 doesn't.


Farrrrk. Just checked on my Dortmunder with 2042 and it is at 18° !!! I forgot to turn the switch on to the fridge after getting it down to 11. I pitched at 11 and it has naturally risen to 18° over 2 days. Very shitty now. 
Somebody please tell me theyve successfully fermented 2042 - Danish Lager at Ale temps  As above the American didnt like it....


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## Liam_snorkel (26/3/14)

Bribie_G uses 2042 for his Aussie lagers. starting at 13 and ramping up to 19


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## mckenry (26/3/14)

Cheers Liam


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## Bribie G (26/3/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Bribie_G uses 2042 for his Aussie lagers. starting at 13 and ramping up to 19


I got that advice from a CUB guy. My last one won a gong.


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## mckenry (26/3/14)

Bribie G said:


> I got that advice from a CUB guy. My last one won a gong.


Here's hoping.... Do you reckon pitching at 11 and letting it rise to 18 over 2 days is too quick though?


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