# Mash Temp And Fg



## hockadays (26/5/06)

Hi guys ,


Up to around my 5th AG and still learning heaps every time. This time while making an Irish Red ale I mashed at 68degC for one hour then mashed out at 72deg for 10mins and then batch sparged at 75deg letting it rest for 30mins before running off. 

The OG was 1.049 in the fermenter and after its fermented and I racked it to secondary it looks like its going to finish up at around 1.017. Seems a little high for me but is this cause I mashed at 68degC. I used S04 for the yeast as I could not find a wyeast suitable. I tasted it and it dosen't taste sweet. Has anyone had the same sort of result when mashing at this temp. 
Also could the crush have anything to do with it. Crush seemed a little course. 

matt :unsure:


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## enoch (26/5/06)

I had a couple brews with an old thermometer as I couldn't find the usual. Diddn't check the accuracy until I had two ~1050->1020 brews in a row. Checked thermometer and it was a few degrees low so the 65 I thought I was at was more like 68-69.

New Thermometer and mashing at 63-64 has given me 1050 plus -> 1010 last couple brews. 

Mash thickness can also be an issue can't remember which direction though!) but 68C will give you a very full bodied brew.

Enoch


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## KoNG (26/5/06)

if i mashed at 68*C on my system i would expect an FG of around 16 or 17. It's amazing what difference even 0.5*C makes....
Did you also use much crystal or cara-pils.?


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## hockadays (26/5/06)

I might have to do a check on my thermometer but I think it's good.
My mash was a start of 2.6l/kg and up to 3l/kg at mash out..Maybe that has something to do with it as well. I only mashed for 60mins as well should I have mashed for say 90min..

I also used around 200g of crystal 135L
250g of wheat
100g munich
4kg pale
50g roast barley

matt


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## KoNG (26/5/06)

Matt, as i said you could expect around that FG.. so dont be too concerned (if it tatses good, be happy.. most people would brew an irish red and be bummed it went all the way down to 1.010). Also i have noted that S-04 has a tendency to drop out of sol'n and form a brick in the bottom of the ferm, a slight swirl, shake or stir might aid in you getting a few more points if you can keep it in suspension. Fermentation temperature at this time of year might also be worth looking at.


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## Darren (26/5/06)

hockadays said:


> I might have to do a check on my thermometer but I think it's good.
> My mash was a start of 2.6l/kg and up to 3l/kg at mash out..Maybe that has something to do with it as well. I only mashed for 60mins as well should I have mashed for say 90min..
> 
> I also used around 200g of crystal 135L
> ...




Hey Hockadays,
Not sure where you are situated? If you are about the go into "winter" then it could be your overnight temperature that made it stop. I don't think it is your mash regime, more likely a yeast problem.

cheers

Darren

cheers
Darren


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## hockadays (26/5/06)

thanks guys,,

I'm in brissy..
There was a bit of a cold snap that went through the other night. It was brewing at 20deg and didn't get below 18degc in the fridge it's in. The yeast did drop out real quick so I gave it a stir and racked and raised the temp up to 24deg to see if it would go again and it dropped a few more points to 1.018. Tasting it just now and there is a little residual sweetness there. Don't know if it would be worth putting more yeast in to get a couple more points. I was aiming for it to finish around 1.014..

matt


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## Darren (26/5/06)

What time frame are you talking, days, weeks?

cheers
Darren


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## stephen (26/5/06)

When mashing you have two enzymes at work: Alpha and Beta amylase. These emzymes work optimally at different temps and produce different results. I can't remember which works at what temp at this point, but if you mash at 60 deg then you will produce more fermentable sugars and end up with a lower FG reslting in a drier beer with higher alcohol content but somewhat lacking body. 

Conversely if you mashed at 70 deg you will produce a lot more unfermentable sugars (maltodextrine) that will result in a higher FG with a sweeter or cloying taste, lower alcohol and more body.

Hence you will often see mashing temps around the 65 degree mark.

This is from the decaying grey matter. 

Guess I'll have another beer,

Steve


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## Darren (26/5/06)

Hey all,
And that is why you should add water to grain not grain to water.

cheers

Darren


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## Hogan (26/5/06)

Darren

You have said this previously. I would appreciate knowing what you base this on before I go adding water to grain or grain to water. Seems that grain to water may give a harsher temperature introduction for the grain but water to grain could produce an inconsistant mix and pockets of varying temp.

Cheers, Hogan


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## hockadays (26/5/06)

darren
time frame for fermentation was 4 days till I racked. 

I know it's only a couple of points and it's within the style but I like to know why things don't happen as planned. I first thought yeast problems but then thought maybe mash. May be a combination of both...

Do you think dropping a yeast at this stage is too late. Its been in secondary for 2 days now.


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## MHB (26/5/06)

These are the critical temperatures for mash brewing.

I have lifted this from a book but if you want to have control of the mash process these temperature steps are worth committing to memory.

40C A temperature stepped mash is sometimes started at this temperature, particularly if cooked cereals are to be added to the mash which would raise its temperature close to the optimum for proteolysis. Some German brewers stand the mash at this temperature for 24-48 hours to encourage lactic acid bacteria to grow and acidify the mash.

50C Optimum temperature for the protein rest, where (122F) proteolysis and some amylosysis takes place. Most temperature stepped mashes are started at this temperature. It is very tolerant, anywhere between 45C and 55C will give satisfactory results. Standing period can be anything from 15 minutes to one hour depending upon quantity of starchy adjuncts in the grist.

60C Optimum temperature for beta-amylase activity which converts starch into fermentable sugars. A beer mashed entirely at temperatures close to this would be fairly dry and relatively high in alcohol.

65C Optimum temperature for diastase activity which refers to alpha-amylase and beta-amylase working together synergistically. A beer mashed entirely at this temperature would have a well balanced ratio of fermentable to non fermentable sugars.

70C Optimum temperature for alpha-amylase activity which converts starch into non-fermentable dextrins. A beer mashed entirely at a temperature close to this value would be high in body and mouth-feel, but relatively low in alcohol.

76C Optimum temperature for liquefaction which reduces wort viscosity and aids mash tun run-off. Arrests beta-amylase activity but permits some alpha-amylase activity.

78C Typical sparge water temperature.


Good Brewing
MHB


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## stephen (26/5/06)

MHB

That's what I was trying to say earlier in this thread.

steve


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## Darren (26/5/06)

hockadays said:


> darren
> time frame for fermentation was 4 days till I racked.
> 
> I know it's only a couple of points and it's within the style but I like to know why things don't happen as planned. I first thought yeast problems but then thought maybe mash. May be a combination of both...
> ...




Hockadays,
4 days is a bit quick for 1.050. You probably should have left it for a week before transfering to secondary. After all it allows some of the crap to drop as well as getting those final couple of points. 
I think everything has gone exactly as it should have and will probably drop thise last couple of points over the next two weeks.

cheers
Darren


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## Darren (26/5/06)

Hogan said:


> Darren
> 
> You have said this previously. I would appreciate knowing what you base this on before I go adding water to grain or grain to water. Seems that grain to water may give a harsher temperature introduction for the grain but water to grain could produce an inconsistant mix and pockets of varying temp.
> 
> ...




Hogan,

I have posted this before and some have disageed with it so take it with a piece of salt.

You are right that adding grain to hot water will virtually kill all of the b-amylase (low temp enzyme converter) in the grain that hits the hot water first.

If you look at MHB's "grab" you will see that the what is quoted in the text are optimal, not critical enzyme temps. A "critical" enzyme temp would be described as one that irreversibly denatures the activity of that enzyme. Optimal is the one that the enzyme works its best. 
If you hit the malt with hot water the B-amylase will be irreversibly "killed" as 73-75C is above its "critical" temp tolerance.

Adding the water from below the grain produces almost no clumps of grain and IMHO is gentler on the malt.


cheers

Darren


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## Darren (26/5/06)

MHB said:


> These are the critical temperatures for mash brewing.
> 
> I have lifted this from a book but if you want to have control of the mash process these temperature steps are worth committing to memory.
> 
> ...




MHB,
Those temps are not critical! It all depends on the relative amounts of each of the enzymes present in particular batch of malt. Some malts will happily convert at 68-72 others will not convert above 66. The take home message should be, once you go above the inactivation temp of any enzyme it is irreversibly denatured (killed).

cheers
Darren


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## wessmith (26/5/06)

Darren, you are attempting once again to rewrite many hundreds of years of brewing practice with your ill informed comments. The best thing you have said tonight is to "take it with a bit of salt" Sound advise, but PLEASE stop alarming the newer mash brewers witrh this pedantic enzyme denaturing nonsense of yours. It simply does not happen in practice. Go ask any pro or micro brewer.... Jeez!

Wes


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## Hogan (26/5/06)

Darren

Can't see the difference in underletting and sprinkling (grain to water) - both methods will have water strike the first grains (either coming up through the bottom inlet or grains dropping down from the surface) Either way the first grains wetted will receive the higher temp and the addition of further grain will reduce the water temp just by its volume.

I did not say _"adding grain to hot water will virtually kill all of the b-amylase (low temp enzyme converter) in the grain that hits the hot water first."_ 

I dont have any expertise on low temp enzyme coversion. But I would think that pouring hot water onto a tun of grain would kill as much if not more b-amylase than underletting or sprinkling. IMO.

Thats my grain of salt FWIW.

Cheers, Hogan.


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## Hogan (26/5/06)

On ya Wes.


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## Darren (26/5/06)

wessmith said:


> Darren, you are attempting once again to rewrite many hundreds of years of brewing practice with your ill informed comments. The best thing you have said tonight is to "take it with a bit of salt" Sound advise, but PLEASE stop alarming the newer mash brewers witrh this pedantic enzyme denaturing nonsense of yours. It simply does not happen in practice. Go ask any pro or micro brewer.... Jeez!
> 
> Wes
> [post="129468"][/post]​




So Wes,
These micro brewers dump grain into water? 

cheers
Darren


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## Guest Lurker (26/5/06)

Yeah, but you have to remember that it is Friday night, which is when Darren used to like to play "Collect all the threads". Now the site is too busy that is almost impossible (although I reckon maybe he could do it), so he has to play "Stir up the brewers" instead.


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## Darren (26/5/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> Yeah, but you have to remember that it is Friday night, which is when Darren used to like to play "Collect all the threads". Now the site is too busy that is almost impossible (although I reckon maybe he could do it), so he has to play "Stir up the brewers" instead.
> [post="129478"][/post]​




Hey guest,
Why not stir em up. Keeps open debate which people like Wes donot like because he has been taught nothing but listens to yes men.

cheers

Darren


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## Mr Bond (26/5/06)

Heres my 2c worth.

Darren and Wes(especially), you guys have the experience and knowledge that exceeds and takes it to another level in terms of average home brewers.

Wes ,your experience as an importer and malt dealer are worth a million $$$,not to mention your brewing experience and contact with micro breweries aus wide.

As a brewer of 7 years(extracts etc...) with only 12 AG's under the belt,I would like to say to all you potential AG'ers out there that in my (very humble) experience basic mashing will make a superb beer. I mash at 65/66C for 75 mins and batch sparge in a very basic(simple) system,and find that this gives me a clean,simple malt profile with a mouthfeel slightly fuller than a commercial beer but still on the lighter side an extract brew.Perfect for my palate.
Technically its great to know/learn all the finer points ,but don't get bogged down or intimidated by all the finer points of advanced brewing techniQues,when great beers can be made in such a simple fashion.

I heat my strike water to 72c ish and add the grains to achieve a strike temp of 65/66c and let it mash for 75 mins with a 1c loss over this time. Never had a dough ball and am making beers with a malt flava and profile that i never could have achieved with extracts.

"*K*eep *I*t *S*imple *S*tupid " is my maxim.

Dave


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## Darren (26/5/06)

Hogan said:


> Darren
> 
> Either way the first grains wetted will receive the higher temp and the addition of further grain will reduce the water temp just by its volume.
> 
> ...




Hogan,
Not correct Hoges,
The first water in underletting will first take the "cool" from the tun then hit the grain.
Just out of curiosity, have you tried underletting?

cheers

Darren


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## MHB (26/5/06)

Darren
Sorry (_feeling or expressing regret for an action that has upset or inconvenienced somebody, or for a similar future action_ )
I should have been more explicit (_expressing all details in a clear and obvious way, leaving no doubt as to the intended meaning_ ).
I was referring to critical (_extremely important because of being a time or happening at a time of special difficulty, trouble, or danger, when matters could quickly get either worse or better_ ) INFORMATION (_the collected facts and data about a particular subject_ ) regarding OPTIMUM (_most desirable or favourable_ ) temperatures (_the heat of something measured on a particular scale such as the Fahrenheit or Celsius scale.), _ not information about the critical temperatures at which enzymes (_a complex protein produced by living cells that promotes a specific biochemical reaction by acting as a catalyst_ ) degrade.

I will try (_transitive and intransitive verb to make an effort or an attempt to do or achieve something_ ) to do better in future

MHB (_a guy that is sick of your shit_ )


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## wessmith (26/5/06)

Actually Darren I am the "Yes Man" I am the guy that designs the recipe and then recommends that the new brewery owner commit a quarter of a ton of grain to his mash tun. The result is on my head. And we ALWAYS add grain to water in our micros.

Go stir the pot on some other forum mate - you are a classic PITB

Wes


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## Darren (26/5/06)

wessmith said:


> Actually Darren I am the "Yes Man" I am the guy that designs the recipe and then recommends that the new brewery owner commit a quarter of a ton of grain to his mash tun. The result is on my head. And we ALWAYS add grain to water in our micros.
> 
> Go stir the pot on some other forum mate - you are a classic PITB
> 
> ...




OK Wes,
Take it up one step! Do Macro breweries add DRY malt to their water? Mr Yes man.

cheers

Darren


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## stephen (26/5/06)

The "water to grain," or "grain to water" will only affect the enzymes if you don't mix your mash and leave hot spots. The enzymes are like your fingers: You can pass them through a candle flame and not get burnt or hurt. Leave your finger in the flame a little longer and then you will really start to feel the heat - leave your finger in the flame and it will burn.

Your enzymes are the same. The initial shock of a higher temp water is like your finger passing through the flame - a fleeting heat if any! Why do you think that when you mash out, you mash out for several minutes? Same as leaving your finger in the flame - the heat comes into effect.

My rant!!!

Steve


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## Mr Bond (26/5/06)

wessmith said:


> . And we ALWAYS add grain to water in our micros.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And suddenly i don't feel so unprofessional :blink: .GT(tdh) showed me the basics @ a demo and its worked a treat for me,and he's a micro brewer of very tasty beers.


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## Darren (26/5/06)

stephen said:


> The "water to grain," or "grain to water" will only affect the enzymes if you don't mix your mash and leave hot spots. The enzymes are like your fingers: You can pass them through a candle flame and not get burnt or hurt. Leave your finger in the flame a little longer and then you will really start to feel the heat - leave your finger in the flame and it will burn.
> 
> Your enzymes are the same. The initial shock of a higher temp water is like your finger passing through the flame - a fleeting heat if any! Why do you think that when you mash out, you mash out for several minutes? Same as leaving your finger in the flame - the heat comes into effect.
> 
> ...




Stephen, that is correct. 
But if you were to firstly malt your fingers then crush them into small pieces the relative enzymes would be exposed to all enviromental insults more readily.

A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.

This is not scare mongering as Wes would like you to believe but more a scientific observation.
No need to worry about it just something you need to be aware of.

cheers

Darren


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## stephen (26/5/06)

Darren said:


> stephen said:
> 
> 
> > The "water to grain," or "grain to water" will only affect the enzymes if you don't mix your mash and leave hot spots. The enzymes are like your fingers: You can pass them through a candle flame and not get burnt or hurt. Leave your finger in the flame a little longer and then you will really start to feel the heat - leave your finger in the flame and it will burn.
> ...


Darren

Have a search for and look at the malting process and the temps involved and let me know how either amylase survives. The grains are cured at temps from about 80-85 deg C.

Steve


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## Mr Bond (26/5/06)

Darren said:


> A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.
> 
> This is not scare mongering as Wes would like you to believe but more a scientific observation.
> No need to worry about it just something you need to be aware of.
> ...



In that contextis it really relevant to the average Home brewer(masher) as a %age improvement in end product.Or is it all a pointless my kowledge is better than your knowledge debate *(EGO)*


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## Darren (26/5/06)

Brauluver said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> > A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.
> ...




Brau,

Bit of both I suspect. A bit of knowledge cannot hurt. Rather than blind faith.

cheers

Darren


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## vlbaby (26/5/06)

Darren,
Even if your idea is correct and the enzymes in the first grains are instantly denatured, who cares? There is more than enough surviving enzymes left in the bulk of the remaining grain to do the job of converting starches to sugars. What overall difference can it honestly make?

If killing a few enzymes presented a problem then decoction mashing would never work.

vl.


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## stephen (26/5/06)

Further to my post above re the curing of grains during the malting process, the grains are helad at 80-85 deg C from 4-48 hours.

I still want to know how a couple seconds or maybe a minute is really going to hurt?

Over to you Darren, and yes I can reference my information.

regards

Steve


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## Darren (26/5/06)

vlbaby said:


> Darren,
> Even if your idea is correct and the enzymes in the first grains are instantly denatured, who cares? There is more than enough surving enzymes left in the bulk of the remaining grain to do the job of converting starches to sugars. What overall difference can it honestly make?
> 
> If killing a few enzymes presented a problem then decoction mashing would never work.
> ...




vl,

I guess the difference it makes is, firstly efficiency, secondly the profile of the resulting beer. I bet fifty cents (yes some scottish heritage) that micro breweries have lower strike temps than the average homebrewer.
Finally, decoction works because you mash in (BTW 80% of the work is done in 10 minutes), then draw the thick mash (mainly grain) and boil then add it back to the soluble (liquid phase) enzymes.

What you are forgetting is that although the mash takes you 60-90 minutes is actually over in 10-20 minutes.

If you don't believe me just check it at 1, 2, 5, 10 and twenty miniute intervals. If needed plot the graph. Doesn't change much after 20 minutes.

cheers

Darren


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## Mr Bond (26/5/06)

Darren said:


> What you are forgetting is that although the mash takes you 60-90 minutes is actually over in 10-20 minutes.
> 
> Doesn't change much after 20 minutes.
> 
> ...


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## tangent (26/5/06)

actually, there's been talk between a lot of brewers that do iodine tests that prove highly modified malts convert during a very short time

but, yeah witch witch etc...


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## Darren (26/5/06)

For me, time isn't really all that a big an issue, plus i like to extract that last little bit (read more glasses of beer).

Check your gravity readings yourself. You will see after half an hour there is a slight but insignificant difference to conversion.

cheers

Darren


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## Millet Man (26/5/06)

Darren,

Some interesting points that tend to be irrelevant to making good beer.



Darren said:


> Take it up one step! Do Macro breweries add DRY malt to their water? Mr Yes man.
> [post="129490"][/post]​



As I recall they actually crush the malt in water to avoid oxidation so that the camel's urine they produce does not taste like anything other than - camel's urine. It has nothing to do with avoiding enzyme denaturing.

I make my own malt that is much lower in enzyme strength compared to barley malt. After only saving 1 litre of enzyme liquid per kg of malt from the full decoction boil that I need to do I still get 80% attenuation at a 65C amylase rest temperature. The full decoction would kill more enzymes than any drop infusion with 75C strike water.

You will kill some enzymes along the way but picking your mash temp will give you the required attenuation regardless of if you drop infuse, step infuse, underlet or decoct. All methods are a means to an end.

Back to hockadays original question in the thread.

I have only done one barley malt mash to educate my kit brewing brother (about 100 gluten free mashes for me) but in that case I did a similar thing in hitting a 68C mash temp for an IPA. It attenuated from 1.057 to 1.018 so not too different to what you achieved.

Simple answer is mash in at a lower temp if you want to get a lower FG. That's my experience and the experience of 99% of other mash brewers out there.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## hockadays (27/5/06)

Thanks Andrew,

Thats the same as Kong has had at 68degC so I think the yeast has done it's job properly. I normally mash at 66/67 and they always go down to around 1.010-1.012 so I'll know in the future what to expect at 68degC. 

matt


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## vlbaby (27/5/06)

Darren said:


> vl,
> 
> I guess the difference it makes is, firstly efficiency, secondly the profile of the resulting beer. I bet fifty cents (yes some scottish heritage) that micro breweries have lower strike temps than the average homebrewer.
> Finally, decoction works because you mash in (BTW 80% of the work is done in 10 minutes), then draw the thick mash (mainly grain) and boil then add it back to the soluble (liquid phase) enzymes.
> ...



Darren,

the first tens minutes of a decoction mash are most likely at 50 degC which is a protein rest. So during this first tens minutes your alpha amylase and beta amylase have done squat! 

This is besides the point anyway. The point is that a small amount of enzyme denaturing will not result in poorly attenuated beer. 
I would dare to say h34r: that most AG brewers do actually add their grain to the water, and have absolutely no side effects from doing this.

I would suggest that too high a mash temp ( due to a bad thermometer etc ) would be more likely the cause of the high FG's not the method of mashing in.

sorry for the thread hijack hockadays :unsure: 

vl.



*edit. * removed all the obscenities


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## Guest Lurker (27/5/06)

I always add the grain to the water and the enzymes seem to have done their job OK over 50 or so batches.


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## Darren (27/5/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> I always add the grain to the water and the enzymes seem to have done their job OK over 50 or so batches.
> [post="129584"][/post]​



Yeah my first 50 or so batches I did exactly that too. The next 70 or so I found it was easier to underlet and my efficiency rose by 5 points.

cheers

Darren


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## Darren (27/5/06)

stephen said:


> Further to my post above re the curing of grains during the malting process, the grains are helad at 80-85 deg C from 4-48 hours.
> 
> I still want to know how a couple seconds or maybe a minute is really going to hurt?
> 
> ...




Sorry Stephen I missed your post!

Its easy. Enzymes are a lot more stable dry than they are wet. The evaporation of the water from the malt also actually cools the malt. The kiln may be at 80 but the malt isn't. You want references?
With your analogy you wouldn't even need to mash the grain as the enzymes would have done all their work on the way up to 80


cheers

Darren


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## stephen (27/5/06)

Darren said:


> stephen said:
> 
> 
> > Further to my post above re the curing of grains during the malting process, the grains are helad at 80-85 deg C from 4-48 hours.
> ...


Darren

I am fully aware that enzymes kick off with the addition of water and become more active. What I was trying to point out is that the temporary transit of the enzymes into a temp that may denature them is only brief and, like my finger in the candle flame analogy, will not kill them off altogether. 

What you said in an earlier post, is that once above 70 deg the beta amylase is kaput! Some will be dead, however, some will survive and continue to perform their duty in converting starch into fermentable sugars. 

The issue of adding grain to water or water to grain is therefore moot. I actually add a third of my water to the mash tun then half the grain, mix add another third of my water, the rest of my grain, mix and add the final third of my water. With this procedure I have been acheiving results around 80-85%. 

For all you budding AG brewers out there, I say, go out and do it! Keep your gear simple, your process simple and you will brew great beer. Do not get concerned with things like efficiency, whether to add grain to water or water to grain or if your mash is a degree high or low. Do your first AG and enjoy the improvement in the quality of the beer. Do your next brew and fine tune your procedure. Again, do not worry about efficiency! Wait until you have done a couple of AG brews before you start fine tuning the efficiency side of things.

Best of all, go out and make some beer that you like!!

Steve


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## smashed jaffa (28/5/06)

Snip:

"For all you budding AG brewers out there, I say, go out and do it! Keep your gear simple, your process simple and you will brew great beer. Do not get concerned with things like efficiency, whether to add grain to water or water to grain or if your mash is a degree high or low. Do your first AG and enjoy the improvement in the quality of the beer. Do your next brew and fine tune your procedure. Again, do not worry about efficiency! Wait until you have done a couple of AG brews before you start fine tuning the efficiency side of things.

Best of all, go out and make some beer that you like!!

Steve"

Well said Steve!! :beer: 

I am about to do my third AG and am starting to get more interested in efficiency as I go along. But the thing that has got me to where I am now is great advice from more experienced people off this forum. 

Mostly though I have tried to keep it simple and not get caught up with the finer points just yet.

Beer = Science + Art + Enjoyment! :chug: 

Smasher.


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## hupnupnee (28/5/06)

I have just had a chance to have a look at this thread, fascinating. 

A point I think that Darren has failed to realise about the nature of chemical reactions and temperature. Heat is the kinetic energy of a substance where as temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy. The funny thing about average is that not all the enzymes are at that temperatre, in fact it would be fair to say in a system the size of a mash half the enzymes would be below a particular temperature and half would be above. Thus if the temperature is short lived, that is less than a few half life periods for that particular enzymes denature curve for a particular temperture, it would be reasonable to assume that a goodly qualtitiy of the enzyme would remain viable. 

So unless the mash was kept at say 70* for a suffieciently long time (I don not know what the half life is for beta amylase at 70*) then there is a very good chance that a fair amount of bete amylase would remain viable. Further more in most mashing systems there is a significant gradient or irregularity in teh temperture through out the mash, so areas of hot and areas of cool. Areas with lots of good enzyme, areas of not much good enzyme. 

The notion that all molecules of a particular enzyme are denatured instantly at a temperature of around 70* is ridiculous

My two bobs worth.

Floculator 

Tim


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## hupnupnee (28/5/06)

"Sorry" hence why the finger in the flame is such a good analogy





Should have added this as well

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/biology/enztech/temperature.html

for those that have nothing better to do with their time. Should be drinking or brewing beer!!! :chug:


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## Randall the Enamel Animal (28/5/06)

The malts we use these days are bloody good, have very high diastatic power, you can bang them around and they work just fine. Like Wess said, if the brewery uses pre-milled grist and a grist case, grist goes into water and works just fine. Breweries as big as, say, Malt Shovel will mill on demand, mix instantly with water and pump the resulting slurry to the kettle. Works just fine. In our 6hl brewhouse, I add a bag of grist for every 50l of mash water and then trim the overall temp with the last 50l of water. Works just fine.

Don't get hung-up on getting better efficiencies, aim for a consistant efficiency and adjust up or down your malt weight.

Like Tim said, beta-amylase will not all instantly de-nature at the same time and there are things that can be done to protect enzymes other than temperature (liquour:grist ratio, pH, divalent cation concentration).

Get in, have a go, WRITE DOWN WHAT HAPPENED, have fun and always have a beer going when you're brewing.


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