# Rosemary In Beer



## [email protected] (7/10/10)

I just had some rosemary bread. Seriously loved it! I can't stop thinking about rosemary.  

Why not Rosemary spice in beer? I like Rosemary... live Rosemary Bread... Beer and Bread.... Rosemary Spiced Beer sounds perfect! Okay, maybe not to much, but some would be great.

Now I need the perfect recipe. I've seen some brews for a Rosemary IPA. Any help would be great. I have some fresh rosemary waiting for me in my garden. 

Thanks for you for your help!

Tim


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/10/10)

timtupy said:


> I just had some rosemary bread. Seriously loved it! I can't stop thinking about rosemary.
> 
> Why not Rosemary spice in beer? I like Rosemary... live Rosemary Bread... Beer and Bread.... Rosemary Spiced Beer sounds perfect! Okay, maybe not to much, but some would be great.
> 
> ...



Maybe see if a hop has a spiciness that is equivalent to rosemary?

I dread to say it (I'll start a flame war here) but POR hops might be the go, even though I hate them myself.

Or pacific hallertauer.

Goomba


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## brettprevans (7/10/10)

search for 'herbs', 'gruit' and funnily enough 'rosemary'. it will bring up the appropriate threads.


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## ~MikE (7/10/10)

i looooooove rosemary, use it in lots of stuff. 
i'd recomend brewing a blandish pale ale, and putting a small sprig into a stubby while it primes. should give you an idea of what you could do with it and if you like the flavour without ruining a batch if you hate it.



Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Maybe see if a hop has a spiciness that is equivalent to rosemary?


rosemary is extremely distinctive, i doubt you'd be able to replicate it in a hop.


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## bum (7/10/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> search for 'herbs', 'gruit' and funnily enough 'rosemary'. it will bring up the appropriate threads.


Isn't it usually marsh (or wild) rosemary that is spoken about in gruits? Despite the name the plants are entirely dissimilar.

Mike's plan sounds like a goer to give you an idea how it will work.


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## QldKev (7/10/10)

Rosemary beer with a lamb roast, yum

QldKev


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## flano (7/10/10)

I reckon it would be alright.

I also reckon you could make beer with a few eucalyptist leaves and a wattle flower chucked in.

Malcolm Douglas made bush tea using all sorts of stuff.

I'd drink it.


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## Mikedub (7/10/10)

a while back a guy at work gave me a bottle of Rosemary Lager he'd brewed, he said he 'threw in a small sprig into each (750ml) bottle, 
even then it was pretty overpowering, I'd go with MikE's suggestion too, maybe vary and note the added amounts over a few bottles?


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## brettprevans (7/10/10)

bum said:


> Isn't it usually marsh (or wild) rosemary that is spoken about in gruits? Despite the name the plants are entirely dissimilar.
> 
> Mike's plan sounds like a goer to give you an idea how it will work.


some of the stuff is differant (esp in gruit as you said). but the threads that the search will bring up discusses using actual rosemary. jovial monk was into herbs etc


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## drsmurto (7/10/10)

Didn't the boys from Brewdog add rosemary to a beer or was that heather?


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## smilinggilroy (7/10/10)

Rosemary...yeah now ya talkin'
Got me interested!
Wondering whether it would go with a robust porter or a stout?
The stronger ale should be able to "carry" the rosemary, yes/no?
Ahh, more ideas, more research.


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## mwd (7/10/10)

If it was the brew in Oz and James Drink to Britain it was heather that they made beer from.


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## drsmurto (7/10/10)

Rosemary and smoked hocks go well together.....

How about a smoked beer with rosemary?

And yes, it was from the Oz and James show so heather it was.


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## under (7/10/10)

Rosemary has no part in beer. :icon_vomit:


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## King Brown (10/10/10)

DrSmurto said:


> How about a smoked beer with rosemary?



This sounds pretty damn good...


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## Shed101 (13/10/10)

Rosemary was used in beer in europe for centuries ... alongside millions of other herbs of course.

But not always in the boil.

There was an alewive in London in the 14th C. who was prosecuted for serving short measures, apparently people didn't notice the false bottoms in her quart pots because of the rosemary sprinkled on top.

Perhaps the OP could try infusing some fresh rosemary in a pale beer first and see how it tastes?

Personally I think it might work nicely with a sweet honey beer.


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## newguy (13/10/10)

Every year my club has a fun competition called BURRP - brewing under really ridiculous parameters. The entries are judged by our wives or anyone else outside of the club who doesn't know anything about beer. The general idea is to make something that non-beer drinkers would like. Two years ago, the ridiculous parameter was rosemary.

I paired up with another guy from our club and we brewed a rosemary ale on my system. He wanted to see how my system worked and this was the perfect excuse. We ended up winning the BURRP competition. Ironically, neither one of us liked that beer.

This is from memory as I didn't take notes for this batch (it was a 20l batch). The grist was about 15% dark crystal with the balance being ordinary pale 2-row. Our OG was in the 1.060's, bittered to approx 20 IBU from a single bittering addition. Yeast was wyeast 1968 special london. I believe that we added about 20g of rosemary for the last 5 minutes of the boil with another 40g added at flameout. The wort was allowed to sit for about 5 minutes before it was drained into the fermenter through a counterflow chiller. The judges commented at length about our beer's balance and fresh rosemary aroma.

Be careful with rosemary and hops as they're kind of mutually exclusive. I tasted the other entries and a few people went the hoppy route. They didn't work. Rosemary + malt sweetness works well.


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## skippy (13/10/10)

try drinking rosox?


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## flano (14/2/12)

ok 
I have made one using rosemary.
I used northern brewer and galaxy then 10 from the end of the boil I added dry orange navel rind about 10 grams and a fist full of fresh rosemary.
Just straight JW Pilsner .

It is nearly finished fermenting.

I could taste the rosemary in the wort....it was not unpleasent.
anyway I will post the final result in about a week....might do a blind test on mates and see what they think...without telling them it has rosemary.


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## evildrakey (14/2/12)

Flano said:


> ok
> I have made one using rosemary.
> I used northern brewer and galaxy then 10 from the end of the boil I added dry orange navel rind about 10 grams and a fist full of fresh rosemary.
> Just straight JW Pilsner .
> ...



I'm a big fan of Rosemary in Brewing... One thing to note is that Rosemary tastes very different and different times of the year. Floral in Spring, quite resinous and bitter in Autumn...

The best use of Rosemary is in Mead  This recipe is from the Closet of Sir Kenelm Digby Knight Opened (1669)
THE COUNTESS OF BULLINGBROOK'S WHITE METHEGLIN

http://

Take eight Gallons of Conduit-water, and boil it very well; then put as much Honey in it, as will bear an Egge, and stir it well together. Then set it upon the fire, and put in the whites of four Eggs to clarifie it; And as the scum riseth, take it off clean: Then put in a pretty quantity of Rosemary, and let it boil, till it tasteth a little of it: Then with a scummer take out the Rosemary, as fast as you can, and let it boil half a quarter of an hour; put it into earthen pans to cool; next morning put it into a barrel, and put into it a little barm, and an Ounce of Ginger scraped and sliced; And let it stand a Month or six Weeks. Then bottle it up close; you must be sure not to let it stand at all in Brass.


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## brucearnold (14/2/12)

Had a brewer here in Canberra that used to make a Rosemary beer, not a big hit with other brewers but I thought it was great! Was like drinking a sunday roast lamb lunch!


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## Nick JD (14/2/12)

Reinheitsgebot. It's German for "don't put wrong shit in beer!"


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## mikk (14/2/12)

Never tried it personally, but i've heard people go mental over rosemary & chocolate ice cream. This suggests that it might be nice with a porter to me...


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## Ross (14/2/12)

slightly :icon_offtopic: 

We just took delivery today of some herbs for trialling in beer - We are brewing a Celtic Red ale with heather flowers tomorrow.

Herbs & misc we got in:

Lemon Vebena
Rosehip
Mugwort
Lavander
Elder Flower
Heather Flowers
Rosemary leaf
juniper berries
Horehound.

Steeping & tasting these as typing....

Cheers Ross


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## HoppingMad (14/2/12)

Read a blog where a person used a standard pale ale recipe and added rosemary & pineapple mint late boil. They thought that the use of the mint meant the rosemary became a more subtle aftertaste. 

Hopper.


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## super_simian (14/2/12)

evildrakey said:


> "...Then put as much Honey in it, as will bear an Egge..."


Huh, seems like they were using an egg as a primitive hydrometer!


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## evildrakey (14/2/12)

super_simian said:


> Huh, seems like they were using an egg as a primitive hydrometer!



They certainly did! Not only that, some recipes have eggs of different sizes - Egge the size of a groat. Egg the size of a penny... Etc...
Some reenactment brewer in the US (I have the article SOMEWHERE) actually measured what kind of egg sizes equated to what SG... Would have been damn hilarious to have worked out...


>We are brewing a Celtic Red ale with heather flowers tomorrow.

Also, Ross - where did you find heather flowers.... I'd love to brew with those...


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

Whorehound and mugwort go well with newt's eyes if you can get them. 

$50 says this is the first and last time you add this shit to your beer. If I see a FWK full of bat's tits, I'll eat my hat made from fugglearseflaps.

There's a reason people make beer from malt hops and yeast ... it doesn't taste like there's a bustle in your hedgerow.


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## Goldenchild (15/2/12)

Juniper was quite common in Sweden back in the day. And still is in traditional Gotland ales. I believe they use it instead of hops and use whole branches! Will try and get hold of one since I'm here and review.

Unsure about elderflower in beer but it goes great in ciders. 
All the Swedish cider brands have one with and IMO are the tastiest.


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## Goldenchild (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> slightly :icon_offtopic:
> 
> We just took delivery today of some herbs for trialling in beer - We are brewing a Celtic Red ale with heather flowers tomorrow.


 

After reading this tonight I decided to try a beer in my locals fridge. 
Heather ale- fraoch ( heather in Gaelic) 

16th centuary recipe malt and heather that's it! Great beer actually more than impressed! Also in the fridge is a pine ale and a kelp ale not so sure about the last one as I hate sea weed but interesting non the less.


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## evildrakey (15/2/12)

goldenchild said:


> Juniper was quite common in Sweden back in the day. And still is in traditional Gotland ales. I believe they use it instead of hops and use whole branches! Will try and get hold of one since I'm here and review.
> 
> Unsure about elderflower in beer but it goes great in ciders.
> All the Swedish cider brands have one with and IMO are the tastiest.



Make sure you use Juniperus Communis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_communis, as some of the junipers are toxic. If you do find proper juniper branches, I'd love to know your source?


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## Goldenchild (15/2/12)

evildrakey said:


> Make sure you use Juniperus Communis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_communis, as some of the junipers are toxic. If you do find proper juniper branches, I'd love to know your source?


 Thanks for the heads up but I was more thinking of sourcing an ale with it. I don't think my 18l BIAB pot could handle any branches in it! 
As for sourcing branches I'm sure I could try find it over here (Sweden) but just assuming your in aussi I doubt customs would allow it in. Especially considering the tree is used fresh and not dried.


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## Brisfox (15/2/12)

As this subject is about rosemary, I did one very dark ale with 3 cardomon pods crushed up and thrown straight in at flame out.
High % if I remember rightly and went well with vindaloo.


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## Thirsty Boy (16/2/12)

I think someone gave you a nice solution - mead and rosemary is a tried combination. That suggests to me that going down the path of a Braggot or at least a "honey ale" will give you a flavour combination that you "know" works.


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## Thirsty Boy (16/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Whorehound and mugwort go well with newt's eyes if you can get them.
> 
> $50 says this is the first and last time you add this shit to your beer. If I see a FWK full of bat's tits, I'll eat my hat made from fugglearseflaps.
> 
> There's a reason people make beer from malt hops and yeast ... it doesn't taste like there's a bustle in your hedgerow.



As much as I hate to agree wholeheartedly with Nick... +1

There is a reason that dead beers died.... the people who were drinking them got a taste of that nice malt and hops stuff that the Czechs were making and decided "If Dad wants to keep drinking the cat piss and pinecone hooch that's "traditional" in the this villiage, he can go for his life, but I'm not drinking that shit anymore! Hand me a pint of Budvar thanks..."

No one drinks Gruit... because gruit is shit and they'd rather have a beer.


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## Goldenchild (16/2/12)

Your opinion and your entitled to it. But all you guys are doing here is stifling curiosity. People have different tastes and some like to experiment with things not so traditional in modern beers. 
Guessing you both wouldn't brew a wit then either? As adding coriander, chamomile and zest is I just plain crazy!


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## freezkat (16/2/12)

too much rosemary can be toxic


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## brucearnold (16/2/12)

freezkat said:


> too much rosemary can be toxic



I don't think people are looking at putting any more rosemary in the pot than you would on a Sunday roast. Hardly classified as large amounts that the non-quoted study suggested is required.


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## Thirsty Boy (16/2/12)

goldenchild said:


> Your opinion and your entitled to it. But all you guys are doing here is stifling curiosity. People have different tastes and some like to experiment with things not so traditional in modern beers.
> Guessing you both wouldn't brew a wit then either? As adding coriander, chamomile and zest is I just plain crazy!



not at all - you might note that immediately above i make a suggestion as to what a half decent flavour match for rosemary in a beer (ish) beverage might be.

I merely point out that when you are talking about a drink as old as beer, you're unlikely to find a flavour combination that is completely untried; and that rather than thinking that diversity in beer has been killed off by some sort of conspiracy to promote bland beer - I think its been killed off by the fact that people realized that beer made in certain ways, with certain ingredients is actually better. Perhaps less "interesting", but better. In the same way as the mad bloke who hangs around at the train station has had a life that is more "interesting" than mine - but I'll take my more boring, but infinitely more palatable life any old day thanks. if rosemary in a beer was much good - theres a damn fine chance you'd have tasted it before.

I think that if you have to struggle to think what sort of beer you could use an ingredient in, then probably the answer is none. If you taste something and immediately a beer flavour combination leaps to mind, or you taste a beer and think "wow, this sort of beer would taste awesome with some **** in it" - thats when you are onto a winner. Like citrus and corriander in a Wit - been done, is good, nearly died out but saved _because it was good_.

Too many good flavour combinations to try, to waste time and effort on stuff that you need a shoehorn and some halucinogens to even imagine working - let alone things that _have_ been used before and were abandoned because something manifestly better came along.


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## sim (16/2/12)

and then theres history. have a lick of an encyclopedia. 

i agree with your point thirsty, and that its got to do with trends. A trend im noticing superceed Budvar's simple awesomeness is "beer is so cool to me right now what the frig else can i do/put in it".

and, i think it should be pointed out that the reason half those historical ingredients died out is we found out they were dangerous for us to consume.


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## Goldenchild (16/2/12)

Yep some good points there I do agree with you beer is better with just malt and hops and more combinations one can brew in a lifetime. But at the same time i also like experimentation. Sure there's always gunna be better beer out there but there's no harm in trying something different.

As for rosemary in a beer a quick google search 'rosemary beer' showed multiple entries from the American forum Homebrewtalk
Seems the beer of choice to try it in is a saison. Didn't read much more into as I'm not planning on a rosemary beer but there is pages of stuff out there.


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

The Phases of Brewing: 

Part One: Kit Beer

Here, the brewer begins. He mixes some goo and sugar with some hot water in a big barrel and adds water and yeast. It pleases him that it's cheap; it shocks him that it tastes cheap.

Part Two: Extract

Our diligent and enthusiastic brewer finds out that kit beer is made by robots and chemicals and vacuums and decides to add real hops to dried malts. He's happy, but those "real beer" flavours are still denied. Now he has a fermenting fridge, things are picking up ... and he can't now believe that the seasons dictated his beer's taste.

Part Three: All Grain

He has an epifanny (same as a female orgasm but real) and decides to actually make beer from things beer is made from. Then he goes a little bit mad - because he sees that he can make a three hundred IBU IIPA that's so malty it's like being caught underneath a combine harvester in a barley field. His beers become assulting and angry.

Part Four: Additions

He's now started down the dark path of adding fruit and spices to his beer. He bargains, "Why not add molten chicken arseholes? Everyone like's KFC. Surely everything I like the taste of deserves to be in the beer I drink?" Then the guilt sets in when his friends says, "This tastes like Pasito and chicken stock, dickhead. Where's the beer?" He's depressed.

Part Five: Resolution

He starts making delicious lagers and accepts he'd been so foolish as to think there was any reason why 90% of the beer drinkers of the world drink clean, refreshing, well-made lagers.


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## manticle (16/2/12)

That fact that you struggle to make the ladies tremor in sexual satisfaction and therefore believe it the work of magic fairies makes me doubt the rest of your list.

I like lagers. I like sour beers. I like well balanced apas and IPAs. I like historical beers and modern day beers. I like brewing to style and experimenting with ingredients.

Give it a shot GC. Don't overdo it and make it the right beer and I reckon you'll probably work something that's quite nice. Might not be a quaffer or a house ale but not everything needs to be.


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

:lol: :lol:

Who wants 20L of rosemary beer in their cupboard? 

Just buy her a vibrator.


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## manticle (16/2/12)

I like to think of it as a companion rather than a competitor.


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## Goldenchild (16/2/12)

Nickjd- Geez I dread the day I'm where your at in brewing and making solely lagers.

90% of beer drinkers think that is the only beer. Or as there led to believe by the lager megaswill brewers of the world it needs to be as crisp, flavorless an clear as the water it's made from but then still alcoholic. To be a good beer!

Lagers are great when it's hot out and ya really thirsty and imo every other beer has it's time and place .

What's step 6?

Realizing that your wasting your time making boring lagers. And going back to the megaswill where we all started?


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## Rina (16/2/12)

epifanny smh


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

goldenchild said:


> Nickjd- Geez I dread the day I'm where your at in brewing and making solely lagers.



Not solely lagers, just not soley ales. 

I was looking through the BrewMate recipe list yesterday and there's like only a handful of lager recipes in there. That's a bit shit. People get wound up in Ales and yet the world has chosen.

Your average punter has more than enough access to ales and has chosen lagers. Why? 

My guess is most people don't want their beer to taste of fruit.


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## manticle (16/2/12)

Actually industrialisation and a bunch of other things come into play.

Market preference isn't solely driven by consumers but that's a discussion for another day.

I believe good lagers have been unfairly treated by most beer geeks and brewing nerds and placed in the too bland basket and I love many different types of them. However, particularly in this day and age, popularity and quality do not always go hand in hand (otherwise Katy Perry trumps Bach).


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

manticle said:


> Actually industrialisation and a bunch of other things come into play.
> 
> Market preference isn't solely driven by consumers but that's a discussion for another day.
> 
> I believe good lagers have been unfairly treated by most beer geeks and brewing nerds and placed in the too bland basket and I love many different types of them. However, particularly in this day and age, popularity and quality do not always go hand in hand (otherwise Katy Perry trumps Bach).



Katy Perry does trump Bach. Bach doesn't have fireworks coming out his clacker. 

I've also often wondered why the harder-to-make beer has become the standard? Please explain. 

I can pump ales out way quicker than lagers. Why did the industry choose the expensive beer if the masses did not?


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## brucearnold (16/2/12)

So how is that discussion on rosemary beer going?

Do we need to start a new tread on tradition beers and their place in today's society?


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

BruceA said:


> So how is that discussion on rosemary beer going?
> 
> Do we need to start a new tread on tradition beers and their place in today's society?



Rosemary is good with Lamb. Dip a wad of it into your beer and see if it improves it. It didn't? Well, there you go.

Mmmmm, Katy Perry.


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## manticle (16/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Katy Perry does trump Bach. Bach doesn't have fireworks coming out his clacker.
> 
> I've also often wondered why the harder-to-make beer has become the standard? Please explain.
> 
> I can pump ales out way quicker than lagers. Why did the industry choose the expensive beer if the masses did not?



You can. At home. Major breweries can pump out stuff quicker than you can do either.

There's a million historical reasons why pale lager became the norm, some of which are to do with customer preference and some of which are to do with industrialisation, homogeneity and how much easier that is to market (or dictate customer preference).

It's a blend, not a black or white deal which is why you prefer your pale lagers to CUB's.

Bach kissed a girl too.

I know it's OT moderators but it's about beer, it's a friendly discussion so please for the love of just letting things be, stop deleting stuff that shouldn't be deleted.

To make it on topic: Take 3 or 4 types of your favourite beer or beer you think rosemary may work in. Steep a bit of fresh rosemary in each. Taste. If you think the flavour combo works, make up a recipe around that.

Alternatively, find a trad or US contemporary recipe and brew that.


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

manticle said:


> I know it's OT moderators but it's about beer, it's a friendly discussion so please for the love of just letting things be, stop deleting stuff that shouldn't be deleted.



GLaDOS has no use for your banter. There will be no cake.

EDIT: a new wave of moderators will sure soon tire of their generalisimoistics.


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## sim (16/2/12)

...so, anyway. incedentally a rosemary lager has been on my list of things to brew for the last year. just happens i dont find much time to brew lager ...but thats another story. i think rosemary will go very nicely with a nice crisp lager, perhaps a bigger alcohol content give it a bit of warmth. dont imagine it will be a house favourite, certainly not at the top of the list, but hey how good is beer?!


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## Newbee(r) (16/2/12)

Ross said:


> slightly :icon_offtopic:
> 
> We just took delivery today of some herbs for trialling in beer - We are brewing a Celtic Red ale with heather flowers tomorrow.
> 
> ...



Sounds like some interesting beers to come! 

The book 'The home brewer's garden' by Fisher.J., and fisher.D. covers most of these. some excerpts if helpful:

Elderflower : 57g as dry hops or 450g to 2.7kg of berries for sweet honey flavour to the beer
Heather: imparts a spicy, complex bitterness and deep purple colour to the beer
Horehound: very bitter - warming, almost menthol quality 28g of dried horehound at boil commencement
juniper: 2 tablespoons late in boil for ginlike flavour. leaves added to secondary give bittersweet aroma.
Lavender: complex bitterness similar to heather. 14g late in boil
rose hips: citrus flavour and red colour 7 to 28g late in the boil
rosemary: 42g fresh leaves late in the boil or dry hop for piney scent to the beer

From memory, mugwort is toxic at high levels. 

*Inspired and heading out into the garden with torch and scissors...*


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## flano (2/5/12)

OK 
I made it...kegged it and tried it...let it sit for a few weeks and tried it again.

It is weird .
Wont be doing it again.

It tastes a bit like beery green cordial with a bit of detol or something in it.
It is quite over powering.
I only used a handful too.

one or two is ok ...just.


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## mikec (2/5/12)

LOL.

Or maybe SOL (snigger out loud).

Thanks for the update mate, you're a brave man.


I think there are some things best left untried. Bacon beer comes to mind. It's one of those things that probably sounded like a great idea to someone, but I've tried it and it tastes like, well, it's gross.


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## evildrakey (2/5/12)

Flano said:


> OK
> I made it...kegged it and tried it...let it sit for a few weeks and tried it again.
> 
> It is weird .
> ...



One thing to remind people is that Rosemary is unusual amongst herbs. It's flavour is VERY dependant on season and growing year - also the variety of Rosemary.... Hmmm... Kind of like Hops. And if I said, all hops taste the same and make my beer taste bitter, I'm sure the moderators would 'accidentally' unsubscribe me.

Rosemary in the spring and summer is lighter and more floral, in the autumn and winter it's much more piney and resinous... The Rosemary in my Brisbane Garden is very piney and resinous all year round where as my Adelaide Garden has a much lighter tasting rosemary that varies by the seasons.

So, please watch your assumptions. My recommendation is that a rosemary beer would be lovely if you used fresh flowers and leaves in late spring from a nice, floral variety... I have a friend in Auckland who has made Hungary Water. Which is an Aquavitae done with loads of fresh rosemary. When he delivered it, it came in 20 small bottles... 5 bottles from different cuts on the still run and 4 runs done in 4 seasons... Every bottle was different and I was completely astounded...


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## flano (2/5/12)

Very piney is a good description

It is like I know the flavor but can't put my finger on it.
I am saving what's left for the slab club meet.

I Should get paid out on accordingly.


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## thylacine (2/5/12)

sim said:


> ...so, anyway. incedentally a rosemary lager has been on my list of things to brew for the last year. just happens i dont find much time to brew lager ...but thats another story. i think rosemary will go very nicely with a nice crisp lager, perhaps a bigger alcohol content give it a bit of warmth. dont imagine it will be a house favourite, certainly not at the top of the list, but hey how good is beer?!




Re brewing herbs,

http://mansgarden.com/brewing.html


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## milestron (2/5/12)

i've been following some of the us homebrew blogs, this one guy had done a dark orange and rosemary saison? http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/...ary-saison.html


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