# Australian Standard Lager



## chappo1970 (1/4/09)

Ok my Dad's 65th Birthday is looming up in June and we are having a bit of a family bash at Chappo Manor. Anyway he has been super keen for us to brew an Aussie Lager. Anyway this is what I have come up with. Any comments, suggestions, no no's and critiques would be welcome as always. :icon_cheers: 

Recipe: Aussie Lager
Brewer: Trent Chapman
Asst Brewer: DeeJay the Dog
Style: Standard American Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 38.00 L 
Boil Size: 47.85 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 7.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 20.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
7.80 kg Pilsner (3.9 EBC) Grain 91.23 % 
0.30 kg Cara-Pils (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.51 % 
35.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 20.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
0.45 kg Dextrose (0.0 EBC) Sugar 5.26 % 
2 Pkgs SafLager West European Lager (DCL Yeast #S-023 Yeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 8.10 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 21.14 L of water at 74.5 C 64.0 C 

Cheers Guys


----------



## Adamt (1/4/09)

Mash around 64 (70 is way too high!) and make sure you use some fresh PoR flowers and it should be lovely!


----------



## chappo1970 (1/4/09)

Thanks Adam for picking up the temp Beersmith seems to keep doing that on me ATM. <_< 

Fresh Flowers all the way or pellets for boil and flowers for aroma and flavour?


----------



## Thirsty Boy (1/4/09)

I'd leave the carapils out - in my opinion it adds nothing but body... which is being taken away by the dextrose.

A couple of % wheat if you are looking for foam.

mash for dryness as Adam says

Otherwise, nice.


----------



## Darren (1/4/09)

I will disagree with Adam and Thirsty Boy on this occasion,

Mash of 70 is fine. You want an Aussie Ale add a kilo of SUCROSE (yes sucrose) to the boil. 
Prime with dextrose if you have to.

cheers

Darren


----------



## dpadden (1/4/09)

I thought it was an aussie _lager_ ....


----------



## dj1984 (1/4/09)

I always thought 70 was for sweeter full body beers and a lower mash for dry pilsner lager beers, but what would i know im an noobie too all grain.


----------



## chappo1970 (1/4/09)

Darren,
I have read that adding sucrose would tend to give a syrupy, almost belgium accent, which was what I wanted to avoid?


----------



## Screwtop (1/4/09)

I agree with Darren......shudder........but yes, mashing for body at 70C would be fine if balanced out by say 10% sucrose. This would give a low FG but hold up the body a bit. And Chappo if your old man is a QLD'er then bitter with nugget and cluster.

Sugar is not only for Belgian Ales. Historically Aussie ales and lagers have been brewed using sucrose.

Made a similar thing for no.2 Son's workmates once. All pils mashed at 68C with 10% sugar, bittered at 60min with 20IBU of a 50/50 mix of Cluster and Nugget and fermented using S-189 @ 12C. XXXX drinkers tipped it into their heads and thought it was great.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## NickB (2/4/09)

Sounds like a plan... Was only thinking today that I would like an Ozzy Lager on tap...was thinking more along the lines of Cascade Light though.... so around 20IBU, bitter with POR, late addition of Hersbrucker (not much though!), S-189 and a nice cool ferment.....

Cheers


----------



## mje1980 (2/4/09)

Im planning a rice lager next, and im thinking of also mashing high, so it doesnt end up way too thin. Let us know what you do, and how it turns out. 

Cheers


----------



## Supra-Jim (2/4/09)

Chappo said:


> Fresh Flowers all the way or pellets for boil and flowers for aroma and flavour?



Pellets for your 60mins and fresh flowers for your flameout addition.

:icon_cheers: SJ


----------



## reviled (2/4/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Pellets for your 60mins and fresh flowers for your flameout addition.
> 
> :icon_cheers: SJ



:icon_drool2: man I gotta get me some fresh flowers!


----------



## chappo1970 (2/4/09)

Thanks guys for all your great and insightful input as always, I'm truly very appreciative indeed. I'm gunna ummm and arggh <pulling hair out icon> over the valid points made and post the final recipe up tonight.



Screwtop said:


> I agree with Darren......shudder........


Screwy your souls gunna burn in hell you know? :lol: 


Thanks guys!


----------



## Fourstar (2/4/09)

Hey Chappo, Another option is to do it with rice as an adjunct instead of Dex or surcose.

75% Pils
5% Carapils
20% Rice

Mash around 67 for 70 (extend it slightly for the rice conversion) Mashout and sparge.

This is an anwesome beer to knock out as an ale if you need a quick beer for the swill drinkers. I personally do it with NB'er to 25 IBU. The 5% Carapils adds a good amount of foam (i can never notice much sweetness at those levels like Thirsty said)

+1 for the Cluster/Nugget hopping to get the XXXX Character.

Cheers!


----------



## chappo1970 (2/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> ...20% Rice
> 
> Mash around 67 for 70 (extend it slightly for the rice conversion) Mashout and sparge.
> ...



Fourstar what does the rice add over dex/sucrose? I'm serious I have never used rice so I'm genuinely interested.


----------



## Ross (2/4/09)

Chappo said:


> Fourstar what does the rice add over dex/sucrose? I'm serious I have never used rice so I'm genuinely interested.




Chappo, the current Aussie pale in the shop you've tasted contains 20% maize. Maize gives the beer a nice rounded flavour, rice on the other hand really accentuates the hops & gives the beer a sharper edge.

Edit: Sugar basically gives alcohol & little else


cheers Ross


----------



## chappo1970 (3/4/09)

Thanks guys for all your inputs. We've decided to employ the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principal with this one as it our first AG lager. I really want to give the rice ago so maybe for the second one. And Ross I love your Aussie Pale so I do get your point.
So I have an Aussie Lager that is a single malt single hop and no where to hide if I stuff it up.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 41.00 L 
Boil Size: 51.36 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 6.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
8.00 kg Pilsner (3.9 EBC) Grain 89.89 % 
40.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 21.5 IBU 
35.00 gm Pride of Ringwood (Flowers) [9.00 %] (0 mHops - 
0.90 kg Cane Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 10.11 % 
2 Pkgs SafLager West European Lager (DCL Yeast #SYeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 8.00 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 20.86 L of water at 77.0 C 70.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 8.35 L of water at 91.5 C 75.6 C 

Will report how it goes.

Edit: Gramamamamar


----------



## warrenlw63 (3/4/09)

Ross said:


> rice on the other hand really accentuates the hops & gives the beer a sharper edge.



Sorry it had that result for you Ross.  Once upon a time I would have agreed that corn was the superior "body lightener" but having used flaked rice for my last few lawnmower type beers I appreciate the nice smooth, almost vanilla-like dimension it can add.

To me it could only be seen as "sharper" if the hopping rates weren't lowered accordingly.

Warren -


----------



## T.D. (3/4/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Sorry it had that result for you Ross.  Once upon a time I would have agreed that corn was the superior "body lightener" but having used flaked rice for my last few lawnmower type beers I appreciate the nice smooth, almost vanilla-like dimension it can add.
> 
> To me it could only be seen as "sharper" if the hopping rates weren't lowered accordingly.
> 
> Warren -



I can attest to Warren's findings here - I recently tried his Galaxy ale, made with a good whack of rice in the grist. I think it is probably the perfect corn or sugar alternative. It seems to have the same broad effect, but without the undesirable flavours that these adjuncts often give.

Whenever I have tasted a beer made with maize it reminds me of American megaswill. Doesn't matter what style its in, it always seems to have that undertone.


----------



## Ronin (3/4/09)

Chappo said:


> Thanks guys for all your inputs. We've decided to employ the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principal with this one as it our first AG lager. I really want to give the rice ago so maybe for the second one. And Ross I love your Aussie Pale so I do get your point.
> So I have an Aussie Lager that is a single malt single hop and no where to hide if I stuff it up.



Nothing wrong with all pilsner malt. Not sure how it happens but every lager (Helles) I've made with the vast majority of the grist being pilsner (small amount of munich and melanoidin) has had the thickest, creamiest head on that I've ever seen on any beer.

Reminded me of the beer hunter episode when he put the coin on the head of the beer (urquell? budvar?), I'd believe it'd support it.


----------



## Bribie G (3/4/09)

mje1980 said:


> Im planning a rice lager next, and im thinking of also mashing high, so it doesnt end up way too thin. Let us know what you do, and how it turns out.
> 
> Cheers






Ross said:


> Chappo, the current Aussie pale in the shop you've tasted contains 20% maize. Maize gives the beer a nice rounded flavour, rice on the other hand really accentuates the hops & gives the beer a sharper edge.
> 
> Edit: Sugar basically gives alcohol & little else
> 
> ...



I have two brews on the go at present. One from 4kg of Galaxy and a kilo of rice, the other from 4kg of Galaxy and a kilo of maize (polenta cooked mushy). Mashed out great, but did 2 hour mashes to ensure complete starch conversion. Local hopeless chemists don't sell white iodine so cant do a starch test yet.

Galaxy gives a lovely golden colour that surprised me as I was looking originally more for a pale corona-ish effect.

I'll report in due course but would go grain over sugaz for an Aussie style despite the fact that the breweries pump in heaps of sucrose.

Also plus one with the Cluster as used in XXXX.


----------



## warrenlw63 (3/4/09)

BribieG said:


> I have two brews on the go at present. One from 4kg of Galaxy and a kilo of rice, the other from 4kg of Galaxy and a kilo of maize (polenta cooked mushy).



Hey Bribie that's the sanest way to go about it.  It's too easy to give advice as to which the poster in question prefers but the only way for the person asking the question to really know is to try both methods for themselves. It's part of the fun of recipe formulation.

Please report back your tasting notes. I reckon there would be a lot of people who would love to hear your findings.

Warren -


----------



## Ross (3/4/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Sorry it had that result for you Ross.  Once upon a time I would have agreed that corn was the superior "body lightener" but having used flaked rice for my last few lawnmower type beers I appreciate the nice smooth, almost vanilla-like dimension it can add.
> 
> To me it could only be seen as "sharper" if the hopping rates weren't lowered accordingly.
> 
> Warren -




Hi Warren - I think you misunderstood my tone... i was not knocking rice, just explaining the difference if you used rice/corn with the same recipe.
I love using rice (especially Jasmine) & sugar at times, they all have their place. I agree entirely with your comments - Lower the hopping rate if using rice, unless you want the more aggresive hopping.

cheers Ross

Edit: spelling


----------



## Ross (3/4/09)

BribieG said:


> I have two brews on the go at present. One from 4kg of Galaxy and a kilo of rice, the other from 4kg of Galaxy and a kilo of maize (polenta cooked mushy). Mashed out great, but did 2 hour mashes to ensure complete starch conversion. Local hopeless chemists don't sell white iodine so cant do a starch test yet.
> 
> Galaxy gives a lovely golden colour that surprised me as I was looking originally more for a pale corona-ish effect.
> 
> ...




BribieG,

I did the same experiment as you using flaked maize/Flaked Rice with the below recipe a while back - The beers were brought to the club meeting for comparison.
The beers were distintly different & the opinion on which one was preffered equally split. The corn one had a more mellowed rounded charater against the drier, crisper more hop accentuated character of the rice one. Both beers were made side by side & had the identicle starting/finishing gravities.
My preference depended on the day & mood...Both bloody nice, which is why CAP's are probably my most repeated brews.

NZ CAP III (Rice) 
Classic American Pilsner 


Type: All Grain
Date: 8/02/2007 
Batch Size: 27.00 L
Boil Size: 35.31 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.50 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 84.11 % 
0.85 kg Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 15.89 % 
45.00 gm NZ Saaz B [6.70 %] (60 min) Hops 28.3 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [6.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.0 IBU 
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40 %] (10 min) Hops 3.9 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [6.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40 %] (0 min) Hops - 
0.50 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs CraftBrewer Swiss Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189)

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.91 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 % 
Bitterness: 34.2 IBU Calories: 487 cal/l 
Est Color: 6.3 EBC 



Cheers Ross


----------



## Steve (3/4/09)

Do you just put the uncooked rice in with the mash?
Cheers
Steve

Edit...also do you rinse it beforehand until it runs clear the same as when you are going to cook it?


----------



## warrenlw63 (3/4/09)

Steve gotta cook it first. Either that or the flaked stuff is a ready made alternative.  

Warren -


----------



## Fourstar (3/4/09)

Ross said:


> I love using rice (especially Jasmine) & sugar at times, they all have their place. I agree entirely with your comments - Lower the hopping rate if using rice, unless you want the more aggresive hopping.



Yeha i totally agree Ross, Rice just has a 'crispness' where as using just straight sucrose ass just alcohol and a lower FG. Adding insult to injury with sucrose, its to esay to ferment high if you have no temp control and your beer ends up going 'winey'.

Rice and kibbled Maize are used extensivly in my lighter beers. They add some character that you cant always get from jusing just barley.

I havn't used flaked rice as of yet, i usually go to the local asian grocer and pick up a bag of viet broken rice as it cooks allot quicker and more of the grain is exposed during cooking ready for conversion.

I also like splitting rice and corn for 20% of my grist in cream ales. very nice.


----------



## Bribie G (3/4/09)

The rice brew is intended to be sort of American with a fairly low Chinook only hop rate. The corn one is a new style  that nobody seems to have come up with yet, a NZ blonde with a tad of Carared as well and bittered with Green Bullet, then NZ Cascade and finally some BSaaz hop tea later on.

Rice is in cold crash bottling Tuesday
Corn is still in Primary 

Both on US 05 so should come out fairly crisp.


----------



## Fourstar (3/4/09)

Bribie, is that rice brew the one you made with rice malt extract from the asian grocer or striaght out plain white rice ? Just so the folks are on the same page.


----------



## jaytee (3/4/09)

BribieG said:


> The corn one is a new style  that nobody seems to have come up with yet, a NZ blonde with a tad of Carared as well and bittered with Green Bullet, then NZ Cascade and finally some BSaaz hop tea later on.



Well maybe not at AHB Bribie - but I've been brewing my Blande Ale 95% Pils, 2.5% each caramalt & wheat pretty regularly lately.
Bittering with Super Alpha and the NZ Hallertau later.

Agreed that the BSaaz addition would be great too :beer: 

cheers, jaytee


----------



## BjornJ (16/11/09)

Any feedback from Chappo and/or BribieG around the dextrose/sugar/rice thing?

Planning an Aussie Lager kind of thing but can't decide between using rice or dextrose...

Used corn a little while ago so want to try either rice boiled the day before or just plain dextrose to get a light enough body and low FG.
hoping to end with FG less than 1.010, should I mash from 65 degrees and leave it for 2 hours to let it cool down a bit, or start even lower?

any feedback appreciated,

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## Nashmandu (17/11/09)

Screwtop said:


> I agree with Darren......shudder........but yes, mashing for body at 70C would be fine if balanced out by say 10% sucrose. This would give a low FG but hold up the body a bit. And Chappo if your old man is a QLD'er then bitter with nugget and cluster.
> 
> Sugar is not only for Belgian Ales. Historically Aussie ales and lagers have been brewed using sucrose.
> 
> ...




Sugar is used cause its a cheap way of getting your alcohol (im refering to lager brewing). So why use it when your aim is taste and quality. ?? seems uneccesary to me. Why not just use extra pale malt? am i missing something....


----------



## Bribie G (17/11/09)

OOps this thread got buried...  

The German Reinheitsgebot dictated that beer should be made only from malt, hops, water and many German beers are of course great. However go anywhere else in the world and most beers are made with adjuncts - pop across the German Border to Switzerland, Austria, France and the Netherlands and there are great beers made with adjuncts. 

Grain Adjuncts: Heavily used in US beers, not necessarily as a cost saver. American Six row barley produced cloudy beers, being high in nitrogen, and the use of corn and rice adjuncts enabled the production of clear lagers towards the end of the 19th century - the corn and rice can 'soak up' the extra enzymes and proteins during mashing. Classic American Pilseners as brewed before Prohibition and now being rediscovered are a lovely beer, often with a fair whack of maize. Apparently since the rice crisis, it now costs the likes of Budweiser more to use rice than malt, but try changing the recipe and see how the public would react.

In the UK in the 19th century the use of artificial fertilizers created bumper crops of barley but, again, high protein - and brewers were getting persistent hazes, so breweries started using grain adjuncts as well. This is not an issue nowadays because low protein barleys have been developed, but some adjuncts are still used, and particularly sugar.

Sugar: In the Uk many beers are made with a proportion of sugar, and have been since grain rationing around the time of WW1. UK bitters and milds have a 'character' in which sugar plays a part. Similarly in Australia mainstream beers have been brewed with a large amount of sugar to thin the body and produce an easy quaffing lager suited to a hot climate. 

So if you are brewing a favourite beer you have had overseas or looking to produce a more gutsy version of a favourite Australian beer then you need to have a look at how it's made and take that into account. So if I'm aiming for a clean drinking Australian Classic I'll probably add a few more hops, but certainly use some sugars, and also some rice to give a polished clarity and finish.

Some of the most appalling Aussie beers are all malt. An example of this is the new VB raw. Try it and see for yourself. The point I'm making is that chanting a mantra of "malt, hops, water, yeast" is putting your brewing in a strait jacket. Apart from the Reinheitsgebot there's nothing to say that you can't put whatever you like into a brew :icon_cheers: The Reinheitsgebot, anyway, was apparently " introduced in part to prevent price competition with bakers for wheat and rye. The restriction of grains to barley was meant to ensure the availability of sufficient amounts of affordable bread, as the more valuable wheat and rye were reserved for use by bakers. Today many Bavarian beers are again brewed using wheat and are thus no longer compliant with the Reinheitsgebot. "


----------



## matthendry (17/11/09)

Bud is actually quite a hard beer to make even though it doesnt taste like it. Remeber its hard to make a beer with nearly no flavor and any faults will show up if you make any mistakes. 

Making A Bud Clone on a homebrew scale is extreamly hard and requires a separate cereal mash for the rice and a decoction step to replicate what is done is a Anheuser Busch brewery and then you need to dilute it down. Bud does this post fermetaion with dearated water (So does James Squire and if you've ever been to the brewery look for the large tank with the portholes ) .

Look at this link from the Maltose Falcons in the US for thier Bud Clone ..

http://archive.maltosefalcons.com/recipes/20040801.php


----------



## BjornJ (17/11/09)

Nashmandu said:


> Sugar is used cause its a cheap way of getting your alcohol (im refering to lager brewing). So why use it when your aim is taste and quality. ?? seems uneccesary to me. Why not just use extra pale malt? am i missing something....



Yes, I must admit I am unsure about adding the dextrose myself..
My thinking is that the last beers I've made all ended up at 1.014 using English Ale Yeast WLP002.
This lager will use San Francico Yeast WLP810, I understand this is another yeast but the attenuation % is exactly the same in beersmith. So guessing that if I were to keep my mash schedule, grain volume, etc I will end up with a similar FG.

As this is my first Lager I want lower FG than that, more like the commercial lager I tested a couple of weeks ago that was FG =1.004.

That's why I'm thinking to get a low FG
-low mash temp
-sugar?

And the sugar or rice to give a light-colored, light-bodied beer.

What I can't decide is whether to use only pilsner malt and rice and hope a low mash temp will give low enough FG, or if I should include sugar to help get the FG down..

Thinking
3.2 kg of Pilsner malt
1.00 kg of rice
0.2 kg of carapils
0.4 kg of dextrose
20 gr Pride of Ringwood (9.3%) @60 min 
5 gr Pride of Ringwood (9,3%) @20 min

for an estimated 
OG: 1.041
FG: 1.013 (hoping this is very wrong..)
IBU: 22.3
EBC: 5.2
(batch size 25 litres)

If I get the FG down to say 1.008 by using sugar/low mash temp, ABV is 5.1 before bottle carbing.
If FG 1.013, ABV is 3.7% before bottle carbing.


Matt Hendry:
I've seen that dougweiser mentioned before but not really read into it.
Thanks for the link, great stuff!
Maybe that's what I need to copy to get the low FG.
But wouldn't it be strange to boil base malt in the rice for 15 minutes? I thought that would extract tannins and what-not from the grain husks?


BribieG,
(I have the magnet, just need to look for a fan)
What is the FG you get on your various lagers, you seem to brew a lot with all kind of different adjuncts and yeasts?
 

thanks
Bjorn

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## BjornJ (17/11/09)

And now the starter is spinning away on the magnetic stirrer in the fridge, so I need to make some decisions


----------



## Bribie G (17/11/09)

Fourstar has posted a fantastic recipe for a rice beer in the thread "rice in brew" that you might like to have a look at.


----------



## Nick JD (17/11/09)

Rice has another benefit - it clears the beer. No idea why, but whenever I use rice as an adjunct the beer is much clearer than those without. (I use no clarifying additions)

For me, it gives a very distinctive flavour of vanilla creamed rice. If it excentuates the hops I haven't noticed - but I err on the knowledge base here. 

I'm leaning towards always having at least 10% rice in my beers.

EDIT: I've found it's best if you boil the crap outa a kg, drain it and leave it in the fridge. Next day you have the fried rice and the beer sorted.


----------



## Nashmandu (17/11/09)

BjornJ said:


> Yes, I must admit I am unsure about adding the dextrose myself..
> My thinking is that the last beers I've made all ended up at 1.014 using English Ale Yeast WLP002.
> This lager will use San Francico Yeast WLP810, I understand this is another yeast but the attenuation % is exactly the same in beersmith. So guessing that if I were to keep my mash schedule, grain volume, etc I will end up with a similar FG.
> 
> ...





BribieG provided a very interesting history of sugar use in beer, but personally i would always avoid it unless it was completely essential. I honestly think that using pilsner malt with a low mash temp, high attenuating yeast and giving it good condition time will give a nice level of crispness without sacrificing malt structure and mouth feel.


----------



## manticle (17/11/09)

Nick JD said:


> Rice has another benefit - it clears the beer. No idea why, but whenever I use rice as an adjunct the beer is much clearer than those without. (I use no clarifying additions)
> 
> For me, it gives a very distinctive flavour of vanilla creamed rice. If it excentuates the hops I haven't noticed - but I err on the knowledge base here.
> 
> ...



OT but the best fried rice in my opinion comes from frying the rice first (in oil for a few minutes till it starts to turn opaque), then boiling. It's a standard with risotto rice and I believe some Italian cooking techniques were inspired by those in China.


----------



## Nashmandu (17/11/09)

BribieG said:


> OOps this thread got buried...
> 
> The German Reinheitsgebot dictated that beer should be made only from malt, hops, water and many German beers are of course great. However go anywhere else in the world and most beers are made with adjuncts - pop across the German Border to Switzerland, Austria, France and the Netherlands and there are great beers made with adjuncts.
> 
> ...




Well said, but honestly, the traditional lagers of pilzen or bohemia would not have been brewed with rice, corn or sugar....


----------



## manticle (17/11/09)

And the traditional lagers of plzen etc are tops. They are however not the only tops beers in the world so restricting yourself to just that purely because they did seems a bit......................well......

....restrictive.

Loads of amazing beers are brewed with sugar, wild yeasts or adjuncts. Loads of shit ones are brewed only with malted barley.


----------



## Bribie G (17/11/09)

Nashmandu said:


> Well said, but honestly, the traditional lagers of pilzen or bohemia would not have been brewed with rice, corn or sugar....



I've brewed a couple of Bohemian Pilseners and of course I would not dream of putting sugar in them. On the other hand when I do a Carlton style Aussie Standard Lager I wouldn't dream of _not_ putting sugar in it :icon_cheers: 
Of course I could do an Aussie Style with all malt and it would probably turn out like an Aussie boutique micro style a-la-Bondi or Bluetongue but that's not really what I'm after, rather an easy drinking house beer / quaffing drop / lawnmower.


----------



## BjornJ (17/11/09)

Thanks, read the recipe from fourstar and doubled the carapils, keeping the kg of rice.
This means I will end up with 0.2 - 0.3 kg of dextrose.

Can't really decide on the hops either..
Definitely Pride of Ringwood at @60 min for bittering, but POR for flavor @20 as well?

Going for as BribieG calls it the standard Aussie carlton kind of beer, not a really interesting, hoppy something or other  

Options from the fridge are
-POR
-Saaz
-Amarillo
-Cascade
-Challenger
-Styrian Golding
-East Kent Goldings


(think my next one will be Dr.Smurto;s Golden Ale so probably not Amarillo)

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## manticle (17/11/09)

Go POR and saaz and make it just a tiny bit interesting.


----------



## BjornJ (17/11/09)

so just a touch of Saaz at 15 or 20 minutes?

should I stay away from POR as it is more a bittering hop, and go with the more "noble" Saaz?

One part of me wants to try POR all the way, another part (not sure which) says to go Saaz to not take any chances with the first lager  

Also playing with the idea of mashing in at 45 degrees, then 55 for say 20 min then 64 for an hour to try really get the fermentability up.


----------



## manticle (17/11/09)

Well to me the idea of a basic Aussie lager suggests pride of ringwood so I'd keep that. The idea of a basic lager suggests saaz and it works well: hence my recommendation. Otherwise try POR all the way. Either of these will fit in with your idea of a basic aussie lager without too much in the way of challenging flavours.

I think either Bribie G's recipes or Chappo's recipes for basic aussie type beers are probably a good place to start. Also Andrew QLD's Coopers red clone.

If as you say, you want a carlton type beer then I reckon any of the other hops will be out of place.

I'm not the best person to advise on step mashing - I've only ever done one single decoction mash with a ferulic acid rest and a protein rest. Everyhting else so far has been single infusion. Are you a regular step masher? Is your system easy to tweak or are you like me and have to calculate different amounts of water in order to hit temp?

regardless - why not give it a go? Get another brew on as soon as you can in case it fails but you never learn if you never try.


----------



## rude (17/11/09)

Im not really qualified to be answering on this forum & I have never used pride of ringwood hops for my brews

What I have heard though, read, suggests it is a bitterring hop ?

The question now is does it have any flavour ?

The next question is does it have any aroma ?

I dont want to go too off topic here but pride of ringwood is Aussie so I hope Im within the guidelines here

There are a lot of knockers of the VB,Crownie,Aussie meggaswill & here we are trying to emulate it

Dont get me wrong at times I try them & say shite but other times when I have been working hard they go down sooooo nice especially the first one so I geuss Im just flying the flag a bit for the Aussies

I also realise clusters is used in our megga swill & Ive tried them all at certain times & they have gone down well with good Aussie company

By the way this is a good thread as I would like to emulate a good Aussie Larger so will be saving this thread

Anyway back to drinking my pommy bitter cheers all hoping to here youre thoughts on Pride of ringwood


----------



## BjornJ (17/11/09)

manticle said:


> I'm not the best person to advise on step mashing - I've only ever done one single decoction mash with a ferulic acid rest and a protein rest. Everyhting else so far has been single infusion. Are you a regular step masher? Is your system easy to tweak or are you like me and have to calculate different amounts of water in order to hit temp?
> 
> regardless - why not give it a go? Get another brew on as soon as you can in case it fails but you never learn if you never try.




My setup consists of one of those cheap, imported 30-litre urnes, works great.
It boils fast, so I think it will be pretty easy to say mash-in to get 45 degrees, then full heat after say 15 min to reach 55 degrees and keep that for another 20 min before full heat again, etc.
It boils very fast so going from mash-out temp usually doesn't take to long, so should maybe just have a try at the different temps.

Picked up the grains earlier today, pilsner and carapils, will use a kg of rice as well. 
Guess it's brew time again this weekend, woohoo!

Will have another think about it, but it seems Saaz or POR for flavor and POR for bittering is the go.

thanks for the help,
Bjorn


----------



## manticle (17/11/09)

I wouldn't blame the hop for a shit brew.

Just because Pride of Ringwood is used in some average beers doesn't mean it's an average hop. A bittering hop has a good alpha acid level and when used for bittering gives a clean profile. That doesn't mean that it can't be used at other points in the boil.

Of course it has flavour and aroma: just as any and all hops do. 

To any who think a good brew can't be be made with PoR - just think coopers pale and sparkling.


----------



## bowie in space (17/11/09)

True Manticle,

I have just bought POR for the first time and am going to try a coopers pale ale clone on friday. I am very interested to taste and smell the hop character. It does receive negative reviews because of the beers associated with it, but how would you know if you don't try it? I only have pellets at this stage, but after I test the hop I'll try again with flowers, perhaps for aroma at flameout, and compare the two. 

I love HB...particularly AG...so many choices. Tweaking and tinkering about with recipes is so much fun. :icon_cheers: 

Bowie


----------



## rude (17/11/09)

So true Mants you never know till you try it but does it have aroma?


----------



## Nashmandu (18/11/09)

BribieG said:


> I've brewed a couple of Bohemian Pilseners and of course I would not dream of putting sugar in them. On the other hand when I do a Carlton style Aussie Standard Lager I wouldn't dream of _not_ putting sugar in it :icon_cheers:
> Of course I could do an Aussie Style with all malt and it would probably turn out like an Aussie boutique micro style a-la-Bondi or Bluetongue but that's not really what I'm after, rather an easy drinking house beer / quaffing drop / lawnmower.




But why on earth would you deliberately brew a carlton style lager! Australian commercial lagers are mud and should be avoided...why why why....it makes no sense


----------



## rude (18/11/09)

Easy Nashi youre dealing with Aussies here mate lol


----------



## rude (18/11/09)

So what should he be mashing mate whats the good mud


----------



## manticle (18/11/09)

Nashmandu said:


> But why on earth would you deliberately brew a carlton style lager! Australian commercial lagers are mud and should be avoided...why why why....it makes no sense




Maybe you're brewing for your mates and they all think homebrew is weird and you want to prove them wrong?

Maybe you grew up on the stuff?

Maybe you're making a good version to show how it can be done properly?

@rude: As I said above - of course it has aroma. Whether or not it's an aroma you like or want in your beer is for you to decide but like any other hop, if you add it late in the boil or fermentation it will lend a specific aroma to your beer. This is not a hop I've brewed with by the way - it's just common sense. It's a hop. It behaves like other hops. If I'm wrong you can take me out to the cinema and make me pay for popcorn.


----------



## rude (18/11/09)

A full reciepe would be nice of what is the good mud cheers

lol still waiting


----------



## rude (18/11/09)

pass mants youre too good looking for me mate

I recon its a good bittering hop thats it


----------



## manticle (18/11/09)

manticle said:


> I think either Bribie G's recipes or Chappo's recipes for basic aussie type beers are probably a good place to start. Also Andrew QLD's Coopers red clone.



If you want the good mud, this is where I'd be looking.


----------



## Bribie G (18/11/09)

Nashmandu said:


> But why on earth would you deliberately brew a carlton style lager! Australian commercial lagers are mud and should be avoided...why why why....it makes no sense



Compared to many International beers such as Carlsberg or Castle Lager of South Africa or Red Stripe or San Miguel or Brahma of Brazil or dare we say it Budweiser or Miller or Coors, Australian domestic lagers hold up very nicely indeed. They are heaps better than most domestic UK lagers - before emigrating to Australia I sampled a heap of them, from Cascade to Tooths (now deceased) to XXXX and found them to be very drinkable. Even Fosters. For every home brew zealot who reckons that beer has to be fiercely bitter, orange in colour and cloudy there are tens of thousands of people who just love their drop of Carlton or XXXX. As a previous poster said, to brew a commercial beer is actually one of the hardest things you can do as a home brewer. Personally I really like to slam down an icy Melbourne Bitter after a hot session on the beach. I love UK bitters, most German and Czech lagers and Melbourne Bitter. I don't like Hefes, Belgians, wheat beers, and a whole range of beers that many home brewers think are the bees knees. There was a micro in Brisbane that closed down a year or so ago, and a lot of people still mourn its passing. I went there a few times and found their beer, in my opinion, to be ugly tasting frozen cloudy concoctions with stupid names served in dimple mug glasses, although they were cheap enough so no harm done to the wallet. Give me a Carlton any day. All a matter of individual taste. :icon_cheers:


----------



## rude (18/11/09)

here here you Aussie ledgend shite his a pomm

A melbourne bitter is allright mate cheers too ya

And all de best ta ya family

Over here mate its swan draught on tap they arent too bad but Im a miser I like me castle so0 I tend to stick at home with the family & drink my own mud


----------



## Nick JD (18/11/09)

All these Aussie beers are lagers? Well I'll be...


----------



## Bribie G (18/11/09)

Nick JD said:


> All these Aussie beers are lagers? Well I'll be...


With the exception of Coopers (mostly) and Tooheys Old. Also some of the Little Creatures and James Squire beers which I suppose you could class as 'mega breweries' nowadays. Not sure about Carlton Black, I expect they crank it out using a lager yeast.

Lagers quickly became the norm with the widespread use of refrigeration at the brewery and at the pub. May have something to do with the climate perhaps :icon_drunk:


----------



## Nick JD (18/11/09)

BribieG said:


> With the exception of Coopers (mostly) and Tooheys Old. Also some of the Little Creatures and James Squire beers which I suppose you could class as 'mega breweries' nowadays. Not sure about Carlton Black, I expect they crank it out using a lager yeast.
> 
> Lagers quickly became the norm with the widespread use of refrigeration at the brewery and at the pub. May have something to do with the climate perhaps :icon_drunk:



If I were running a megaswill company I'd be brewing beers that don't occupy the equipment for twice as long as others to make more money and a more competitive product. The same equipment could produce twice the ale in the same time as a lager ... and less cooling costs ... and nicer beer ... and if VB and XXXX are "lagers" why not make ales? No one will be the wiser.

It's a funny world.


----------



## rude (18/11/09)

When you are on a good thing you stick to it $$$

Marketing I dont know how they do their research but the latest is low carb beers

They seem to smother the market so you cannot get a choice or they advertise so the lesser dont get a look in & people just go along with it.

If someone could brew a nice ale for a lot cheaper than the meggerswill then we might have a chance but from what Ive seen it cost more.


----------



## BjornJ (20/11/09)

ok, will give it a try tomorrow.
My first lager, yeeeaaah!

pilsner/rice/POR and possibly some Saaz.
Will keep the sugar nearby if I chicken out  


Bjorn


----------



## manticle (20/11/09)

BjornJ said:


> Will keep the chicken out
> 
> 
> Bjorn



Best. Chicken is only good in ales and ciders.


----------



## BjornJ (24/11/09)

hehe, took me a second to understand. Then I remembered the chicken carcass in cider thread, hehehe. I would have bet money on that not being true, a chicken carcass in the cider barrel.

had a smashing brew day on Saturday brewing on the balcony while drinking beer and reading a book. Then managed to spill some wort, break the hydrometer (as well as the glass measuring tube), burn a big hole in the grain bag, before started to fill the fermenter with chilled wort only to find I had not yet put the tap in, oopps.

Not a brew day to remember, in other words..
Ended up with 21 litres of 1.042 of very light, clear wort bubbling away in the fridge at 12 degrees as we type  

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## BjornJ (14/1/10)

Update:

This beer turned out a bit dissapointing!

I made my "Aussie Lager" or "Rice Lager" and it came out VERY thin in color, quite clear and not very bitter.
So pretty much spot on.

After two weeks in the fermenter and another week in the cube it was crash chilled for a week. Then isinglass, polyclar and then filtered with a 5 micron filter. (my first ever filtered beer).


After two weeks in the bottle I tried one to see how we were doing, and it was not very nice.
It was VERY light in color, very light in taste with low or no bittering, but then this cidery, sourey (if that is a word) taste?


Have put a couple of bottles in the fridge thinking of lagering it for some weeks and try again, but pretty disappointed if this is how it is turning out..


Bjorn


----------



## Melthar (14/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> If I were running a megaswill company I'd be brewing beers that don't occupy the equipment for twice as long as others to make more money and a more competitive product. The same equipment could produce twice the ale in the same time as a lager ... and less cooling costs ... and nicer beer ... and if VB and XXXX are "lagers" why not make ales? No one will be the wiser.
> 
> It's a funny world.



You can blame the Kiwis for lagers being the mainstay of the commercial breweries. It comes down to the "Continuous fermentation" process.

http://www.roadshow.org/index.php?option=c...=view&id=50


----------

