# Sweet And Sour Cider



## Newbiebrewer (19/6/11)

I'm looking to make a cider similar in taste to a lindemann's apple lambic. I'm a little unsure of how much (if any) pear juice is required to have some residual sweetness when finished or what brett strain I should use.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance


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## Tanga (19/6/11)

I'm pretty sure it's Brett B - I haven't done one, but someone on here did and I remember it sounded interesting.

What juice are you using? Real / bought? I just drank the last bottle of one which was about 1/4 pear juice and that was enough residual sweetness for me, but it was still dryish. It depends on your tastes. What do you usually drink?

PS - Apple and blackcurrant also adds a nice residual sweetness and colour.


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## bradsbrew (19/6/11)

If your after sweet and sour I'm pretty sure its called the "takeaways" yeast because sometimes the wind blows hot and cold. Incider I know you are now singing that song :icon_chickcheers: .

Sorry for this totally useless but funny for me post.

Brad


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## InCider (19/6/11)

bradsbrew said:


> If your after sweet and sour I'm pretty sure its called the "takeaways" yeast because sometimes the wind blows hot and cold. Incider I know you are now singing that song :icon_chickcheers: .
> 
> Sorry for this totally useless but funny for me post.
> 
> Brad



Life can be sweet and sour, but I am in control.


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## Newbiebrewer (22/6/11)

Tanga said:


> I'm pretty sure it's Brett B - I haven't done one, but someone on here did and I remember it sounded interesting.
> 
> What juice are you using? Real / bought? I just drank the last bottle of one which was about 1/4 pear juice and that was enough residual sweetness for me, but it was still dryish. It depends on your tastes. What do you usually drink?
> 
> PS - Apple and blackcurrant also adds a nice residual sweetness and colour.


You wouldn't happen to remember the name of the person or even the title of the thread?

Using bought juice, getting real juice is a problem. For me I don't mind a little sweetness in my cider but the dryness/tartness worked really well, which is ideally what I am chasing.


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## brettprevans (22/6/11)

eeeewww Brett B in a cider would be gross. thats sweaty horse blanket. Its Brett C you want. 
and Tanya is right....it was me who made the post. there is a link in my sig.

I wouldnt reccomend following my experiment and purely innoculate the cider with 100% Brett C. Its tart. its fkn tart. and dry. on a hot day thought its awsome. I would reccomend using a normal yeast to start with and say half way through ferment add the Brett C. that way you get a nice character without it being overpowering.

just remmember that as its a wild yeast it will chew through the sugars, so you might want to back sweeten with lactose. if you back sweeten with something fermentable please dont bottle as you'll get bottle bombs unless you kill off the yeast.

edit: bugger there doesnt seem to tbe link in my sig anymore. cant find the bloody thread either.


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## Tanga (22/6/11)

Oops, haha, good thing you were around to correct CM. I found the discussion. It was a side discussion in another thread:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=51034&st=0

What kind of tartness does the Brett add? For my taste cider is tart enough as is.


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## brettprevans (22/6/11)

Adds a tropical fruit tartness. Some dryness with it which accentuates the tartness. Think acidic tartness. Not really sure how to explain it. I wouldn't use 100% brettC again. The part ferment with brettC gave a wonderful slight freshness/tart bite in summer was brilliant. Adds another dimension. Make a small batch and give it ago.

Ps Brett b is great in some beers.


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## Greg.L (22/6/11)

Most people want to make their cider less tart. That's why I do a MLF, to get rid of the sour malic acid. In basque cider they get acetic sourness because their natural yeast produce a lot of acetic acid (vinegar). They pour from the bottle held high into a low glass to blow off some of the acetic taste. Also adds a bit of theatre.


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## brettprevans (22/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> Most people want to make their cider less tart. That's why I do a MLF, to get rid of the sour malic acid. In basque cider they get acetic sourness because their natural yeast produce a lot of acetic acid (vinegar). They pour from the bottle held high into a low glass to blow off some of the acetic taste. Also adds a bit of theatre.


I don't know how u guys make cider but mine aren't tart. and Ive never heard of anyone say they think cider is tart. But to each their own


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## Greg.L (22/6/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> I don't know how u guys make cider but mine aren't tart. and Ive never heard of anyone say they think cider is tart. But to each their own



I guess it's all relative but I was under the impression a lot of people want to sweeten cider because they find it too sour or dry. The difference between "dry" and "tart" is debatable but either way people feel the need to sweeten. The main acid in cider is malic acid which is used in confectionary to add sourness, and the difference after MLF is very noticeable, when the malic has been converted to lactic acid which is much less sour. commercial cider in Australia is never tart because it is always sweetened. 

Of course we all perceive taste differently but I have read a lot of complaints about cider being too tart. Personally I don't like sweetened cider.

Greg


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## Tanga (22/6/11)

:icon_offtopic: Sorry.

I was thinking of doing a Malo-lactic fermentation myself on a cider Greg. How do you go about doing yours? Do you inoculate? Use a wooden barrel?


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## pk.sax (23/6/11)

Use that Coles brand 'fresh' squeezed cloudy apple juice from the fridge section for your cider, will defo find out what tartness is  I don't get that when using LL juice.


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## Greg.L (23/6/11)

I buy a sachet of culture from winequip, about $40, but I do some red wine as well so it's worth it for me. If anyone knows of a cheaper source it would be good to know. You only need a tiny bit of culture for cider, the recommended pitching rates are for wine but cider has more malic acid so it is easier to do in cider. If you have contacts at a winery they might give you some, you only need a pinch rehydrated in water at 20C.

With the right temperature and low so2 a mlf will happen naturally in cider, I pitch the culture to get it over early so I can bottle. I don't know if it is worth bothering for supermarket juice. The MLF takes about 2 weeks, then another 2 weeks for the flavour to settle down, initially it will taste very flat after MLF but soon improves.


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## Tanga (23/6/11)

Yeah, that's what I thought. Expensive.. Not worth it for the small batches I do. Apparently wood absorbs the ML bacteria (MLB) though. So once barrels have had MLF take place in them they don't need to be innoculated again. So you could perhaps add some oak chips in with your ML bacteria. That's what I was thinking of doing. Not sure how well (or quickly) it'll work though. The thing I'd be wary of is acetic acid production if the bacteris population isn't big enough.


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## Greg.L (23/6/11)

Tanga said:


> Yeah, that's what I thought. Expensive.. Not worth it for the small batches I do. Apparently wood absorbs the ML bacteria (MLB) though. So once barrels have had MLF take place in them they don't need to be innoculated again. So you could perhaps add some oak chips in with your ML bacteria. That's what I was thinking of doing. Not sure how well (or quickly) it'll work though. The thing I'd be wary of is acetic acid production if the bacteris population isn't big enough.



If you don't want to pay for it just keep your Temperature between 17-21C, so2 levels low and headspace as small as possible. Take a pH or TA before fermentation and then check after a month or so. If the pH has risen significantly then you probably have a wild MLF going, so leave a couple of weeks and then you can add so2 if you wish and lower the temperature for storage.


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## KudaPucat (23/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> If you don't want to pay for it just keep your Temperature between 17-21C, so2 levels low and headspace as small as possible. Take a pH or TA before fermentation and then check after a month or so. If the pH has risen significantly then you probably have a wild MLF going, so leave a couple of weeks and then you can add so2 if you wish and lower the temperature for storage.


Does MLF produce Gas/pressure?


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## Tanga (23/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Does MLF produce Gas/pressure?




Yes. I know what you're thinking (I thought the same), but I'm not sure if it's enough for carbonation (definately not enough for an explosion). A by product of MLF is CO2, about 1/3 as much as a soft drink has (on average).

Thanks for the suggestion Greg. I may give that a go. =)


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## KudaPucat (23/6/11)

Tanga said:


> Yes. I know what you're thinking (I thought the same), but I'm not sure if it's enough for carbonation (definately not enough for an explosion). A by product of MLF is CO2, about 1/3 as much as a soft drink has (on average).
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion Greg. I may give that a go. =)



Ahh good, I was worried about a bone dry batch I'd bottled that I didn't stabilise. feared it may go bang. I don't care for carbonation in most of my drinks anyhow.


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## Greg.L (23/6/11)

The amount of co2 produced by a single bottle isn't very much, but a 20L batch will produce a noticeable amount. A sudden release of co2 can indicate MLF but may also be due to other things like change in temp or pressure, or a restarted yeast fermentation, so its not a really reliable indicator. With cider a bit of co2 doesn't hurt so an in-bottle MLF isn't usually a problem. I prefer to have everything stable before bottling.


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## Newbiebrewer (27/6/11)

I was thinking for mine

Mostly apple juice, with maybe 3-5L of pear juice for some sweetness
wyeast cider for a week then brett c for another week maybe 2 weeks
bottle and stand for a month

anything extra that I maybe should watch out for?


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## KudaPucat (27/6/11)

Hughezy said:


> I was thinking for mine
> 
> Mostly apple juice, with maybe 3-5L of pear juice for some sweetness
> wyeast cider for a week then brett c for another week maybe 2 weeks
> ...



sounds good. I know little of brett, so keep an eye on it, in case it needs feeding, and tell me all about how good it tastes when you're done.


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## Newbiebrewer (27/6/11)

so add the brett after 5 days then?


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## Tanga (27/6/11)

I'm not a brett brewer, but I think your best bet would be to go on SG rather than time. It'll make it easier to redo the brew if it works (or change it if you need to).


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