# Craft Beer Industry Concerns - what is and isn't craft beer



## crowmanz (3/6/15)

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/blueprintforliving/craft-beer-industry-concerns-come-to-a-head/6512740


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## mwd (3/6/15)

Agree JS is no craft beer just megaswill with a small bit of flavour. Never had a Matilda Bay product yet.


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## mckenry (3/6/15)

If you cant reach the bottom of your mash tun with your mash paddle in your own two hands, you aint a craft brewery.


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## sponge (3/6/15)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Agree JS is no craft beer just megaswill with a small bit of flavour. Never had a Matilda Bay product yet.


Haven't had a fat yak?

EDIT: The beer, I mean..


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## welly2 (3/6/15)

There's two Matilda Bay beers that I drink - Alpha Pale Ale and Minimum chips. I do enjoy them but I know they're nothing more than "megaswill with a small bit of flavour". As I've whinged on a bit here before, up in Darwin we're really limited to what we can buy so you've got to drink what you can. Even the "craft beer" pub has about a handful of actual craft beers and the rest being megaswill under the pretence of being craft. It's pretty frustrating.


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## DU99 (3/6/15)

Little creatures where does that fit in.


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## wide eyed and legless (3/6/15)

I have concerns about what is and isn't a craft beer, it's very hard to differentiate between the Australian craft beer and the megaswill.


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## GalBrew (3/6/15)

Obviously if your beard doesn't reach the bottom of your mash tun you are not a 'craft' brewer. But seriously all the bullshit about what 'craft beer' means......really is the term even required anymore? As far as I can see there is beer, some is produced in large factories, some not. Some taste good, some not. All have a degree of marketing wank about them that I don't really care for.

I will drink the beer I think tastes good, not overly fussed about the ownership of a given brewery, or how it is brewed. What is more 'craft'? An MG steam ale or JS hop thief? Both fine beers IMO. At least one is brewed in a brewery owned by the brewer.


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## droid (3/6/15)

ed - whoops more posts since I started my reply

how about the definition? "craft" means different things to different people. to me craft suggests something made at home, something your grandma makes or on a small ie; local group/community scale. but maybe at the moment "craft" in beer terms also suggests styles of beer maybe not recognised by the swilling armies...yet

"garage" is out there as well so what should that mean? how big can a garage be? soon enough one of the big boys will use "ghetto" as a descriptor, that'll piss me off


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## eMPTy (3/6/15)

I don't even care about this 'craft' label we are putting on certain operations.

What gets me is the misleading labelling and marketing in which a large brewery has every intention of pretending to be something they are not (e.g. the Byron Bay label in the link).

I just want to know who the brewery is and where they are based. Easily. Is that too much to ask?


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## GalBrew (3/6/15)

eMPTy said:


> I don't even care about this 'craft' label we are putting on certain operations.
> 
> What gets me is the misleading labelling and marketing in which a large brewery has every intention of pretending to be something they are not (e.g. the Byron Bay label in the link).
> 
> I just want to know who the brewery is and where they are based. Easily. Is that too much to ask?


I fully agree on both points. I don't care of x 'craft brewery' is owned by y 'mega brewery', but it would be nice to know which brewery a given beer is made in.

I think in the context of beer the word 'craft' is so nebulous that in effect it has no meaning.


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## welly2 (3/6/15)

GalBrew said:


> I fully agree on both points. I don't care of x 'craft brewery' is owned by y 'mega brewery', but it would be nice to know which brewery a given beer is made in.
> 
> I think in the context of beer the word 'craft' is so nebulous that in effect it has no meaning.


Agreed. I think there's absolutely no reason why a megaswill brewery can't produce a "craft" beer. The fact that they're also producing beer by ton does in no way stop them from making crafted, hand produced beer as well. I don't think "craft" is a good label to determine the size of the brewery. Craft is a technique or method.


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## Blind Dog (3/6/15)

GalBrew said:


> Obviously if your beard doesn't reach the bottom of your mash tun you are not a 'craft' brewer. But seriously all the bullshit about what 'craft beer' means......really is the term even required anymore? As far as I can see there is beer, some is produced in large factories, some not. Some taste good, some not. All have a degree of marketing wank about them that I don't really care for.
> 
> I will drink the beer I think tastes good, not overly fussed about the ownership of a given brewery, or how it is brewed.


This

I don't honestly care where a beer is made, or by whom, just how it tastes. I've had shit 'craft' beer from local independent breweries, and beer I've really enjoyed from the international behemoths. I know which I'll be buying again. 

Passing off is a whole other issue, and deserves far more that a $20k fine.


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## NewtownClown (3/6/15)

It's no mystery; after years of debate, the CBIA defines a craft brewery in Australia as an Australian based brewery that produces less than 40 million litres of beer annually.


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## GalBrew (3/6/15)

With respect to the CBIA, brewing less than 40 million litres of beer does not imply 'craft' or 'premium' or whatever positive spin you want to put on it (rightly or wrongly). I would argue that the industrial behemoths with their infinite manpower and superior technology and QC would have a far better chance of producing a better beer than some guy in an industrial backlot with repurposed dairy equipment. 

Just putting it out there.....


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## Vini2ton (3/6/15)

Have a look at who owns what in the wine industry and the way corporates go about business. This has been going on for hundreds of years. If you had established a small and successful product and were offered squillions for it, who wouldn"t take the money and run? Survival of the fittest, a free market with no "red-tape", isn't that the way? The big guys always screw the little guys.


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## mckenry (3/6/15)

NewtownClown said:


> It's no mystery; after years of debate, the CBIA defines a craft brewery in Australia as an Australian based brewery that produces less than 40 million litres of beer annually.


Sweeeeeeeet! I was worried if I ramped up production I'd be declared a macro brewer. Knowing this gives me another 799,350 brew days this year and I can still call myself craft. :wub: :wub:


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## Black Devil Dog (3/6/15)

Being 'craft beer' doesn't mean it's good, better or best, it should just mean it's not brewed by a mega brewery.


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## GalBrew (3/6/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Being 'craft beer' doesn't mean it's good, better or best, it should just mean it's not brewed by a mega brewery.


Then they should find a different description for themselves. Like 'micro' or 'small'.


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## TheWiggman (3/6/15)

... or 'craft'?


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## wombil (3/6/15)

Forty million litres,-----Not a bad backyard effort.


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## wide eyed and legless (3/6/15)

Being a small, craft, microbrewery would not be a guarantee for success.


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## Danscraftbeer (3/6/15)

Quote: 'It's like going to a farmers market and having McDonald's there because they have lettuce in their burgers.'

That's hitting the nail on the head.

So evolving craft brewers who large up! on scale become more a factory. Rather than craftsmanship?.

What's better? Good home cooked food? or take away?
Its a game on the consumer and what makes the economic wheels turn around.

Good beer, is good beer! under whomever craftman.


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## Liam_snorkel (4/6/15)

the 'craft' label is important for brewers and people in the industry, not so much from a consumer point of view unless you're the type that buys things 'ethically'.
a
As mentioned earlier, the real issue is large corporate owned breweries masquerading as small backyard operations and squeezing out independent operators. Saying "it happens everywhere in every industry, get used to it" doesn't make it right or fair, and generally speaking beer is better fresh. I'd rather have an adequately brewed beer that's super fresh than a better beer that's stale, lightstruck or oxidised.


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## wide eyed and legless (4/6/15)

Here is an interesting article and podcast from brew news.In particular the definition put forward by the English Craft Brewers on what a craft brewery is.
https://www.brewsnews.com.au/2015/05/episode-52-jamie-cook-on-the-state-of-the-beer-business/


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## Ciderman (4/6/15)

I think my biggest concern is the bigger breweries are actually using the wording 'craft' as part of the marketing and packaging. I Just bought a Suntory 'Craft Select' Brown ale because it stood out, or the word 'craft' resonated with me amongst all the other Japanese beers available. 

It was awful...


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## Bribie G (4/6/15)

Craft beer is orange in colour and chill hazed (we know this because it has to be served at -n degrees Celsius where n is a large number. )
It also has to have a stupid name like "old grandfather's jockstrap bloodhound false teeth".

Personally I prefer well made beers, served correctly, and brewed by whoever does them. Hop Thief 6, Four Pines APA and Pilsner Urquell to name but three.

As opposed to the consistently nasty Stone and Wood Pacific pale ale, a couple of the Wicked Elf cheese flavoured offerings and Australian Guinness on tap.


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## Grott (4/6/15)

I may be old fashioned but IMO I've always believed "craft" made to be something made personally, by hand, skilled based and with limitations on output. To me I make craft beer, start producing in mass I would suggest the craft aspect is gone. One thing though, a lot of "craft beers" are called that so they can charge heaps, a bit like some "organic" products or " glutton" free. Not everything is as it seems. 

Cheers


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## droid (4/6/15)

I am the master of inappropriate comments that's why I hate funerals but what the hell...
my mrs bought me some red oak pale ale and it was something between beer, cider and lemonade absolutely friggin awful and I still have a couple in the fridge, it was on special but well within date. The guy leading the charge co founded red oak, so you know, no-ones perfect eh


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## panzerd18 (4/6/15)

Whats going to stop the big multi-nationals just creating a separate business name and then call it craft beer like they have been doing?


What is independent and what is not independent? Independent because it operates under a different business name?


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## panzerd18 (4/6/15)

Went into First Choice yesterday and saw a 6-pack of craft beer was advertised at $28.

I understand with alcohol tax the higher the ABV the higher the tax, but this was only 4.5% ABV I believe.

The Craft label is bordering on ridiculous with these prices.

Just because something is expensive, doesn't mean its always better.


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## GalBrew (4/6/15)

panzerd18 said:


> Went into First Choice yesterday and saw a 6-pack of craft beer was advertised at $28.


That's a tad pricey :blink:


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## mje1980 (4/6/15)

More annoying is trying a new offering from an Independant brewery and it tastes like 15 other pale ales.


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## Killer Brew (4/6/15)

The underlying issue here is truth in labelling. Consumers just want to be able to understand where products are made and by whom. The same issue is prevalent in the food industry (eg. try picking up a bottle of Real Iced Tea and work out who the manufacturer is. CLUE: it is one of the two big soft drink giants). These businesses go to great lengths to keep their sub-brands at arms length for the sole reason of making it difficult for shoppers to know who they are buying from. If they thought for a second that their master brand name would help them sell more product then you would see it plastered all over it. ACCC is right to try and push for greater truth in labelling to assist those who want to make a conscious decision to not support these conglomerates.

Disclaimer: the international conglomerate food company that I have been working for for 10 years are great employers and none of my above comments should be seen as any reflection upon them h34r:


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## Bribie G (4/6/15)

Labelling in the drinks market as a whole is ridiculous.

For example Somersby European Cider is made by Independent distillers in Melbourne under licence to Carlsberg, and wouldn't you think that Somersby might have something to do with the major cider region of Somerset.

Mt Kosciusko brewed at Malt Shovel (come off it, probably brewed at Lidcombe like most JS nowadays). 

And didn't Stone and Wood "craftwash" a beer by having it contract brewed by CUB or something similar?

I'd also agree with the post about craft brewers setting up then simply apeing American APAs, usually at a lower gravity as well as charging top dollar.

Actually my favourite go-to beer on tap when I'm in Newcastle is Murray's Moon Boy ale, it's an honest 4.5% quaffer made on Pilsner malt, as they state, with a well balanced hit of NZ hops and doesn't pretend to be the next Sierra Nevada clone. Fantastic beer to simply hammer a few schooners whilst on the pokies and you don't need to have a beard to enjoy it.


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## fraser_john (4/6/15)

mckenry said:


> If you cant reach the bottom of your mash tun with your mash paddle in your own two hands, you aint a craft brewery.


Should come up with a neat graphic, shorten the quote and make a fortune selling t-shirts to hipsters


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## verysupple (4/6/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> <snip>
> 
> What's better? Good home cooked food? or take away?
> 
> <snip>


Or what about that fantastic restaurant that serves over 200 pax regularly? Just because you serve a lot of people doesn't _necessarily _mean the food is shit. The same goes for beer.


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## eMPTy (4/6/15)

fraser_john said:


> Should come up with a neat graphic, shorten the quote and make a fortune selling t-shirts to hipsters


I'd wear one for shits and giggles.


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## droid (4/6/15)

fraser_john said:


> Should come up with a neat graphic, shorten the quote and make a fortune selling t-shirts to hipsters


Hipsters are on the way out bro, just sayin


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## Bomber Watson (4/6/15)

I refuse to drink any beer that is not made with grain grown in Individual seedling punnets then malted /kilned one grain at a time to exacting and differing levels of roastyness, mashed in water from chuck Norris's swimming pool by a man exactly 27856800 minutes old at the time of strike, doughed in using his beard, steped 297 times, then boiled for exactly three days. Then it must be fermented by individually trained and named yeast cells. At least half of these cells must know how to rollover and fetch, and one should be called bob.


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## wide eyed and legless (4/6/15)

panzerd18 said:


> Went into First Choice yesterday and saw a 6-pack of craft beer was advertised at $28.
> 
> I understand with alcohol tax the higher the ABV the higher the tax, but this was only 4.5% ABV I believe.
> 
> ...


Read about a guy on an American site, loved the Brooklyn Blast IPA and was looking for a recipe cos he didn't want to pay $8.00 for a 6 pack of a 9% ABV beer


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## Mardoo (4/6/15)

Brooklyn Blast is awesome!


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## Vini2ton (4/6/15)

Do craft-brewers have share-holders?


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## wide eyed and legless (4/6/15)

I believe most of Brooklyn Brewery's beers are Mardoo, still got to try and get over there.


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## wide eyed and legless (4/6/15)

Vini2ton said:


> Do craft-brewers have share-holders?


I think Stone and Wood do, and that's what will dictate the ingredients I would imagine, when you have to make a beer as cheaply as possible so you can give a return to the shareholders investment, I would like to know how much DME goes into the craft beers.


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## Liam_snorkel (4/6/15)

Do you really think DME is more cost effective than grain?


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## panzerd18 (4/6/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Do you really think DME is more cost effective than grain?


Dry or liquid malt extract is so expensive. More expensive than beer kits.


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## Vini2ton (4/6/15)

Sugar syrup. I think the question is now who can pump out grog. Let's get dirty.


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## wide eyed and legless (5/6/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Do you really think DME is more cost effective than grain?


I think that would depend on the size of the brewery's mash tun, also how much does a brewery pay for DME, I read about 2 brewery's in the US and all they use is DME, what made me remember that was someone else had replied that the beers produced by those 2 brewery's were the worst in the state.
I have been to the Coldstream Brewery twice and if they are using all grain they are trying really hard to make one of the most unpalatable beers I have ever tasted.


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## Liam_snorkel (5/6/15)

sounds like they're just a shit brewery.

There are places like this http://pickledpigbrewery.com.au/ who are essentially just one of those "Brew 4 U" places and use liquid extract. Nobody other than themselves consider them a craft brewery though.

Plenty of breweries have stakeholders, I don't really understand your comment relating to S&W, they're one of the more consistent and legit craft breweries in Aus.


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## wide eyed and legless (5/6/15)

The reference to S&W was in reply to investors in the craft beer industry, I agree they are committed to what they stand for they are one of the few who don't outsource when demand is too high,and keep control of their product.
I did read recently (and I am sure it was an interview with Jamie Cook) about craft brewers needing to find more money in order to grow, what I am saying is when you have investors to look after what started as a moral obligation to brew a good beer through love for the craft COULD take a backseat.


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## gap (5/6/15)

Why?
Surely the investors are concerned about making a profit.
Cheapen your product and have sales go through the floor does not seem a good way to make a profit.


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## mwd (5/6/15)

O.T. 4 Hearts Brewing Company seems to be going great guns in Ipswitch with beer and food. Does not seem that long ago he was just a homebrewer with an idea. Good work.

http://www.4heartsbrewing.com/


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## wide eyed and legless (5/6/15)

Why, same reason as SAB Miller, Lion Nathan, Kirrin, Woolworths, buy out companies like Blue Tongue, Malt Shovel, Little Creatures, Matilda Bay,Gage Roads to make money without any thought for the consumer. Get an investor with the same ideals as the brewer then it would work, another investor who purely sees the return on an investment would put the screws on the brewer.
How many beers are in the market and selling volumes which a lot on AHB wouldn't touch, there are plenty.


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## Feldon (5/6/15)

The current confused use of the word ‘craft’ to describe beer from both small and large breweries began simply from our struggle with the English language to find a suitable descriptor for beers with certain perceived qualities.

This sort of struggle with our language to cope with change is not uncommon. Before the 1600s in England the honorific ‘esquire’ was used to describe men who were armigerous – they had a legal right to display a coat of arms as registered with the College of Heralds in London. Men of high status who were not armigerous were termed ‘Mr’. or ‘gentleman’ instead. But by the late 1600s economic progess had produced many new-moneyed men and the term esquire was widely used to denote their status regardless of their legal right to be called esquires. And the College of Heralds gave up policing the matter (although today it is still technically illegal be use a coat of arms without right). I imagine many an old knight tut-tutted about the new moneyed interloppers using the word esquire, just as we are indignant of mega-breweries cashing in on the name ‘craft’ beer.

In recent times we have seen the use of the words like ‘digital’ or simply ‘technology’ to descibe modern computer and communications devices. On closer parallel with the use of ‘craft’ has been the use of ‘organic’ to describe unadulterated or unsullied food.

Prior to its proloiferation in the shops the word ‘organic’was used exclusively to describe the carbon-based substances found or derived from living things (eg. sugars, proteins). Organic chemistry was and still is the study of these such carbon-based chemicals found in plants, animals etc. Up until the recent past, if someone told you to add organic matter to your garden beds you added manure, compost or other rotted down biological material rather than mineral fertilisers. Now, you go to Bunnings and find bags of compost labelled ‘organic’. Which implies those bags not so labelled are not organic?

I think we are at point with craft beer that the organic movement was in not so long ago. In the early days the big food companies moved in on the term ‘organic’ and used it to promote their own mega-brand food products. This was much to the outrage of small organic producers who responded by setting up accreditation organisations with compliance schemes. These organisations gave members a stamp or symbol to display on their products which indicated compliance with certain standards (eg, pesticide and weedicide free etc.). Many such organisations and schemes came into being, some supported by the food giants, and a minor war has raged between them for popular recognition.

One lesson to be learned is that if the genuine ‘craft’ beer producers want to protect their product, market share and customer loyalty then they need to get together and establish an accreditation scheme - something that enshrines processes and handling as well as ingredients. Then we the buying public will know, by the trade-marked symbol, that the beer abides by certain standards.

But what exactly should those standards criteria be? And will the so-called ‘craft’ breweries be willing to go along. Afrer all, breweries both large and small are primarily run to make money.

Would Little Creatures Pale Ale have been the cash bonanza it was for its original brewers if the mega-breweries which bought the brand were compelled to continue producing the beer the same way it was in the beginning? To change the recipe or processes to produce the watery version we know today (compared with the original) the mega-brewery would risk losing the craft accreditation symbol, and thus we would know its not the same beer before buying it.

No doubt the mega-breweries could respond by paying some well regarded food or beer guru to set up a rival accreditation scheme that could give the appearance of high standards while allowing junk beer to masquerade as craft beer. This is what happened with organic foods accreditation schemes. Confuse the market with multiple rival schemes and the big boys win.


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## panzerd18 (5/6/15)

Interesting and good post. Thanks for taking the time.

Another question I have is, what is the difference between premium beer and non-premium beer? 

When I went into 1st Choice the other day, all the so called craft beer was under a shelf titled 'Premium Beer'.

I walked out with a 6-pack of White Rabbit beer. Now I find White Rabbit is owned by Lion Nathan who also owns Little Creatures.

Before long the multinationals, bankrolled with their $$$ will buy up all independents and will completely own the so called craft segment.


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## Parks (5/6/15)

Premium beer is nothing more than a self assigned marketing status.

I personally go out of my way to try beers made by brewers I know and also small breweries because I know my purchase means more to them than buying a LCPA does to Little Creatures.

What I am trying to get at is I would like to know who makes the beer so I can choose where my money goes.

I certainly don't mind having good beer produced by the big guys as long as they aren't trying to fool me to think they are a little guy who is just trying to make a living.


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## panzerd18 (5/6/15)

Should the craft beer label then only go to the 'little guy who is just trying to make a living'?


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## Parks (5/6/15)

I don't really know or care that it says craft per se, just that it's easily identifiable.

There is no right answer to this IMO - you have to cut the string at some length.


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## Liam_snorkel (5/6/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Would Little Creatures Pale Ale have been the cash bonanza it was for its original brewers if the mega-breweries which bought the brand were compelled to continue producing the beer the same way it was in the beginning? To change the recipe or processes to produce the watery version we know today (compared with the original) the mega-brewery would risk losing the craft accreditation symbol, and thus we would know its not the same beer before buying it.


I'm yet to have one of these watery LCPA that some people imagine.


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## Liam_snorkel (5/6/15)

One thing that I did have recently that was watery pus, Mountain Goat Surefoot Stout from a can. It tasted like a stout blended with 1/3 soda water. Basically looked like coke, maybe even a bit lighter. This is what happens when 'craft' breweries want to up their production and outsource it, these were brewed at Asahi's Melbourne brewery, same place as cricketers arms and steamrail etc.


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## wide eyed and legless (5/6/15)

wide eyed and legless, on 05 Jun 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:




wide eyed and legless said:


> Would Little Creatures Pale Ale have been the cash bonanza it was for its original brewers if the mega-breweries which bought the brand were compelled to continue producing the beer the same way it was in the beginning? To change the recipe or processes to produce the watery version we know today (compared with the original) the mega-brewery would risk losing the craft accreditation symbol, and thus we would know its not the same beer before buying it.


Don't recall saying that, not a beer I would normally buy unless the only other choices were VB or Carlton Draught, if someone has a good memory for taste they would tell the difference between the original and the replicated one.


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## michaeld16 (6/6/15)

Maybe we could go back to calling it boutique beer. But that was a bit gay


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## billygoat (7/6/15)

Bribie G said:


> And didn't Stone and Wood "craftwash" a beer by having it contract brewed by CUB or something similar.
> 
> Actually my favourite go-to beer on tap when I'm in Newcastle is Murray's Moon Boy ale, it's an honest 4.5% quaffer made on Pilsner malt, as they state, with a well balanced hit of NZ hops and doesn't pretend to be the next Sierra Nevada clone. Fantastic beer to simply hammer a few schooners whilst on the pokies and you don't need to have a beard to enjoy it.


That was Byron Bay Brewery not Stone and Wood.


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## Ditchnbeer (7/6/15)

I'd say Craft Beer = quality over quantity, no adjuncts to boost gravity (and lower costs) and small scale. This results in a way more expensive six pack, something which turns off mainstream punters right away. I asked a beer loving mate what he would buy if given $70 at Dan Murphys and he said 2 x slabs of VB. So while I drink craft beer I understand it can be costly to do that, and that's why I homebrew.


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## michaeld16 (7/6/15)

After just spending $90 on 12 beers at slowbeer this week for research purposes sometimes I wish that I could still be satisfied with a carton of vb


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## welly2 (7/6/15)

michaeld16 said:


> After just spending $90 on 12 beers at slowbeer this week for research purposes sometimes I wish that I could still be satisfied with a carton of vb


Chill it so cold you almost can't taste it, get yourself into a hot climate and it's actually an ideal drop. Anything outside those two parameters and you want nothing to do with it.


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## Vini2ton (7/6/15)

michaeld16 said:


> Maybe we could go back to calling it boutique beer. But that was a bit gay


Careful, don't get yourself into trouble doock.


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## Goose (7/6/15)

grott said:


> I may be old fashioned but IMO I've always believed "craft" made to be something made personally, by hand, skilled based and with limitations on output. To me I make craft beer, start producing in mass I would suggest the craft aspect is gone. One thing though, a lot of "craft beers" are called that so they can charge heaps, a bit like some "organic" products or " glutton" free. Not everything is as it seems.
> 
> Cheers



I would agree but I really cringe whenever I see the word 'craft' in front of it because it reminds of those damn 'craft' shops that are ubiquitously present in tourist towns like Hahndorf I(SA), Olinda (Vic) or Kuranda in QLD, to me seem to purvey overpriced crap that nobody needs. Being a practical person I think the pet hate of this stems from always being dragged into craft shops by wimmin who like to potter in there completely oblivious to price.

The Webster definition of 'craft' is:

: an activity that involves making something in a skillful way by using your hands
: a job or activity that requires special skill

pretty confusing though it does imply the more automated and machine dependent your production is the less 'crafty' it is... other searches suggest a 'craft' beer should be small, independent and traditional.

As such it has just become a marketing term to differentiate beer from megaswill but of course gets buggered along the way with the big guys trying to cash in on the gravy train. The analogy with the 'organic' marketing term has been mentioned as well, quite aptly.

If I were commercial I'd be more than happy to differentiate my beer by claiming origin as "microbrewed" and let the quality and price speak for itself.


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## jimmyjack (7/6/15)

I don't buy into beer marketing BS. Imagine if all beer was black and white and you had no idea where it came from. weather it be Craft V non Craft. If you drink a beer and enjoy it drink it!


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## Topher (7/6/15)

If the brewer/organisation cares about the quality of the liquid more than the bottom line.......that's craft.


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## BottloBill (8/6/15)

Wouldn't the definition of craftsman better explain the argument of the topic. A Man or Woman that practices the art of perfection in a single trade?


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## Feldon (8/6/15)

BottloBill said:


> Wouldn't the definition of craftsman better explain the argument of the topic. A Man or Woman that practices the art of perfection in a single trade?


[SIZE=medium]Very good point.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium](and apologies in advance for what turned out to be a long reply)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If the notion of craftsmanship is pursued to its end I think we’ll find that none of the beers that claim to be craft beers are that at all. Beers made by commercial breweries and, I would think, just about all home brewers are far removed from what craftsmanship really is in its purest form.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Let me explain what I mean by way of an anecdote.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Way back in 1976 I went to South Africa to visit a mate before heading off up north on a road trip to Europe. My mate had just graduated as a systems analyst and working for a computer company in Durban that was automating a paper mill, and I was taken to have a look. It was a big, hot, noisy plant comprising two long production lines. At one end the pulp was taken up on a series of rollers and fed through dryers to the other end of the plant where the finished roll (the size of a small car) was released. A critical attribute of the finished paper was its water content which had to be about 11 per cent (from memory) which was measured by sensors as part of the computerised production process, and the speed of the various rollers was adjusted by the computer to achieve this result. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The computer itself was a row of cabinets with blinking lights and those old reel-to-reel program tapes spinning inside – reminded me of _Lost in Space_. I guess this was state of the art gear back then, but by modern standards it probably had about as much computer grunt of an STC 1000 has today. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Only one of the production lines was computerised – the other one was still manually controlled by a team of Zulu workers. I noticed that one of the Zulus, a wrinkled old man, would go up to the paper rolls that came off the manual line and placed his hand on the warm paper surface for a few seconds, then go and write something down in a book on a nearby table. I asked my mate what he was doing. He said, “He’s our competition and he’s hard to beat”. He explained that the old man had worked at the paper mill all his life, and he could tell the water content of the finished roll by laying his palm on its surface. And he was always right.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The old Zulu was a craftsman. He had learned through years of repetition and experience what 11 per cent water content felt like. And the paper he and his workmates produced was a product of that craftsmanship, whereas the computerised plant’s paper was – what? – something else? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So how to apply this notion of craftmanship to the making of craft beer? A craft brewer worthy of the name in its purest sense should learn his craft through his own senses and not through instruments and devices. He will bring his mash water up to strike temperature not by using a thermometer, but by watching the water vapour wisp up from the surface. And he knows that it looks different depending on the weather – in summer the water vapour is almost imperceptible, but in the cold of winter it will appear thick, almost smoky, as more vapour condenses in the cold air. But through years of observing, and perhaps learing from a master in his early years, he has learned his craft and he knows when the liquor is ready for the grain. And of course he would also touch the mash to know when the temperature is right, just as a nursing mother might splash a few drops of warmed milk on the back of her hand to determine if the bottle of milk is right to feed her baby.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The grain bill itself would not be weighed. Just as a chef making a sauce or dressing may not measure out the ingredients but observe the changing appearance and consistency of the food in the pan or bowl, neither will the craft brewer. He will know by the appearance of the mash and the resistance he feels from his mash paddle just how much grain is enough for the beer he is making. Neither will the craft brewer use calibration markings on his grain mill to get the grist he wants. He will start the mill and collect a handful of the first crushed grain as it leaves the mill, and rub it between his fingers. He knows when the mill is adjusted correctly by the gritty feel of the grain.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]A craft brewer will not set a timer for his mash nor look at a watch or clock. He knows from brewing in the same place for years how the light changes in the brew shed, how the shadows shorten or lengthen with the passage of time. And he tastes the mash and can tell when it is as sweet as it can be. Similarly, during the boil he knows when to add hops, and he tastes of the wort to know when he has added enough.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So in its purest sense a craft beer would be one made by a craftsman who is in harmony with his surroundings, ingredients and experience and is less reliant on instruments and measuring devices. This is how beer was made up until the scientific revolution of the past few hundred years, and few if any beers like this are made by us today. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]All the more reason perhaps to discard the word ‘craft’ from brewing and find some other tag. But let’s not abandon the pursuit of craftsmanship all together. In spite of all the gauges, PIDs, hydrometers and other tools we use, craftmanship is a quality that can not only make us better brewers but also better people.[/SIZE]


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## BottloBill (8/6/15)

Feldon said:


> Very good point.
> 
> (and apologies in advance for what turned out to be a long reply)
> 
> ...


+1 this is a very good representation thus definition as such


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## Goose (8/6/15)

> [SIZE=medium]A craft brewer will not set a timer for his mash nor look at a watch or clock.[/SIZE]


Might get a bit tricky to bet the IBU target in the boiling of the hops part though. B)


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## Feldon (8/6/15)

Goose said:


> Might get a bit tricky to bet the IBU target in the boiling of the hops part though. B)


I think you may have entirely missed the point I was making.


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## MarkyMark (8/6/15)

I hate dropping into a bottleshop, grabbing a six pack of what looks to be a beer from a new craft brewery (I want to support new small breweries) only to find when I get home that it has no flavour and it is in fact from a megaswill brewery. They need to wack the big boys hard when they mislead consumers, as it impacts the small guys (I'm less likely to try something new I've never heard of after being burnt a couple of times).


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## Goose (8/6/15)

Feldon said:


> I think you may have entirely missed the point I was making.


sigh

not at all.


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## Feldon (8/6/15)

Goose said:


> sigh
> 
> not at all.


And your point is?


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## barls (8/6/15)

MarkyMark said:


> I hate dropping into a bottleshop, grabbing a six pack of what looks to be a beer from a new craft brewery (I want to support new small breweries) only to find when I get home that it has no flavour and it is in fact from a megaswill brewery. They need to wack the big boys hard when they mislead consumers, as it impacts the small guys (I'm less likely to try something new I've never heard of after being burnt a couple of times).


they did. all of them now have to be labeled as such


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## Bribie G (9/6/15)

billygoat said:


> That was Byron Bay Brewery not Stone and Wood.


Aha I didn't know there were two breweries at Byron Bay.
I've been to Byron Bay twice (first and last time).


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## Goose (9/6/15)

Feldon said:


> And your point is?


I think you missed it...


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## BottloBill (18/6/15)

Posted in its own thread but thought I would slot it here aswell http//www.brewsnews.com.au/2015/06/tooheys-taps-into-pale-ale-trend/


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## BottloBill (18/6/15)

BottloBill said:


> Posted in its own thread but thought I would slot it here aswell
> http://www.brewsnews.com.au/2015/06/tooheys-taps-into-pale-ale-trend/


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## MichaelM (23/11/15)

Craft beer is more about the implied culture and economics around the production of beer. It's about the individual or group of individuals who take their passion to make good beer and turn it into an independent business. The small man giving it a go. It's about producing a beer for the local community on a small scale and the business's interaction with with the community. Local job creation despite economic inefficiencies, Giving back to the community, offering a cultural opportunity. Working collaboratively with other craft breweries rather than a war for the taps and shelves. Craft brewers revive historical practices in the brewing industry. They have the financial backing of investors who actually care about the product and not purely the profit, despite not having access to millions that the multinationals. Here's a link to an inspiring video on you tube: https://youtu.be/Xh2oDdTHXQU


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## GalBrew (1/12/15)

MichaelM said:


> Craft beer is more about the implied culture and economics around the production of beer. It's about the individual or group of individuals who take their passion to make good beer and turn it into an independent business. The small man giving it a go. It's about producing a beer for the local community on a small scale and the business's interaction with with the community. Local job creation despite economic inefficiencies, Giving back to the community, offering a cultural opportunity. Working collaboratively with other craft breweries rather than a war for the taps and shelves. Craft brewers revive historical practices in the brewing industry. They have the financial backing of investors who actually care about the product and not purely the profit, despite not having access to millions that the multinationals. Here's a link to an inspiring video on you tube: https://youtu.be/Xh2oDdTHXQU


So what happens when said craft brewery becomes successful and expands a few times like a Sierra Nevada for example? Is a brewery no longer 'craft' once it goes beyond 'the small man having a go'? Because then 'craft' is basically a term for unprofitable local breweries that will no doubt last only a short time. Any brewery that is successful anywhere will expand and grow, that is how business works and that is why the 'small' descriptor for craft breweries can only be temporary.


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## Liam_snorkel (1/12/15)

I disagree with your assessment of "craft" being "unprofitable local breweries that only last a short time". Not all businesses want to expand in that way.
You could argue that massive 'craft' breweries like SN have outgrown the label, but I guess being family owned, not cutting down on ingredients, doing things like the "beer camp" collaborations, open fermentations (such as bigfoot) - mean that they have a foot in each door.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/12/15)

GalBrew said:


> So what happens when said craft brewery becomes successful and expands a few times like a Sierra Nevada for example? Is a brewery no longer 'craft' once it goes beyond 'the small man having a go'? Because then 'craft' is basically a term for unprofitable local breweries that will no doubt last only a short time. Any brewery that is successful anywhere will expand and grow, that is how business works and that is why the 'small' descriptor for craft breweries can only be temporary.


It would just be called an independent brewery, if someone starts a brewery with good intentions of making craft beer, it will be inevitable that it would have to grow, one would find it impossible not to, if they don't someone else will then they would eventually disappear.


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## Liam_snorkel (1/12/15)

I think the exception to that case are some brewpubs that don't package their beers except for kegs to be distributed locally. Profitable, without (geographical) expansion being a goal.


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## Brooa (1/12/15)

This whole dodgey marketing thing gets us at the public bar as well. I was at a private function with a bar tab at the local recently. Included in the bar tab was any local beer. When I asked for a fat yak, the barman says "no mate that's not local, It's Matilda Bay". I don't know how much more local you can get than 5klm from the major Brisbane brewery it's brewed at.


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## MichaelM (1/12/15)

Not all businesses want to be bought out by larger multinational breweries but want to keep it in the family and remain independent. Also not all businesses want to expand to the point of being another James Squire. Depends on the business model. Being small doesn't mean you will be unsuccessful. You focus on a niche market.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/12/15)

MichaelM said:


> Not all businesses want to be bought out by larger multinational breweries but want to keep it in the family and remain independent. Also not all businesses want to expand to the point of being another James Squire. Depends on the business model. Being small doesn't mean you will be unsuccessful. You focus on a niche market.


The only problem with that is there are many others in that niche market and expansion would have to follow as a natural turn of events, if you brew a successful beer and it becomes popular, then without expanding the only option is to get it brewed elsewhere, a business becomes like a small child which you are proud of and it would be inevitable that one would nurture it and see it grow.If one wants to brew beer in a small profitable way as Liam suggested a brew pub is the way to go.


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## GalBrew (1/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The only problem with that is there are many others in that niche market and expansion would have to follow as a natural turn of events, if you brew a successful beer and it becomes popular, then without expanding the only option is to get it brewed elsewhere, a business becomes like a small child which you are proud of and it would be inevitable that one would nurture it and see it grow.If one wants to brew beer in a small profitable way as Liam suggested a brew pub is the way to go.


This is exactly the problem. What happens in 20 years time when there is a 'craft brewery' on ever corner? Margins on beer are not great, the only ones that will survive the inevitable craft beer wars of the 21st century will be small local brewpubs, that are far more profitable compared to setup cost (you make a lot more by pouring a beer over the bar than by packaging/kegging for distribution) or the larger packaging breweries that can sell far more product (for lower margin), be they independently owned or not.


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## Dave70 (1/12/15)

Brooa said:


> This whole dodgey marketing thing gets us at the public bar as well. I was at a private function with a bar tab at the local recently. Included in the bar tab was any local beer. When I asked for a fat yak, the barman says "no mate that's not local, It's Matilda Bay". I don't know how much more local you can get than 5klm from the major Brisbane brewery it's brewed at.


Thats funny. On a same same but different note, we had a set menu at the the brother in laws birthday the other night at a Greek restaurant. Wonderful food, truly, but the beer choice on offer was a trifecta of shit - Crownies, Haan super dry and can you guess?? - yes that's right, Corona. Anyhow, I though **** this, they must at least have Ouzo. So I went inside to check the fridge to discover a range of Murrys and JS beer. The Crownies and Corona were about the same exorbitant price as the the other stuff, about $8 a pop, so it just seemed odd they weren't part of the set menu list. 
Guess the markup must be less. In any case, the meal was $44 per head. My drinks bill was $48. It was worth it.


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## MichaelM (1/12/15)

To try and draw a parallel. Is cheese made on a small scale by an independent business and sold at a farmers market or at a local outlet not considered artisan/craft cheese? If that same cheese was mass produced at a large factory it wouldn't be considered craft/ artisan cheese .can the same not be applied to beer?


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## GalBrew (1/12/15)

But what happens when that small scale cheese factory increases in size, employs more staff and churns out vast amounts of the exact same cheese?


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## Liam_snorkel (1/12/15)

it's all about the vibe, man.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/12/15)

I suppose it is applied to beer, it would start life out as a craft beer and as it grows the craft seems to get dropped, as it would apply only to a small operation. It would then become an independent brewery, though Ballast Point Brewery when it sold for $1 billion was touted as a craft brewery, even though it was a large brewery and about to enter on to the stock market just before it was sold so that it could expand to keep up with demand.
I would say "craft" is a misused word when it comes to beer, I can't recall a craft cheese being mass produced so the craft is dropped, in beer it is a marketing ploy used by the likes of Coles, Woolworths/Dan Murphys.


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## crowmanz (1/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I can't recall a craft cheese being mass produced


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## GalBrew (1/12/15)

Whata about a brewery like Cantillon? They are pretty big as is Rodenbach and Weihenstephan. Are we suggesting that they are no longer craft? Because they have been honing their craft for a while now and make stellar beers.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/12/15)

I think I will stick to calling it artisan cheese  Artisan cheeses are aged for months or years even, in some dark cellar or cave mass produced cheese doesn't have that luxury, cheese making has been around a long time even mentioned in the bible, "Blessed are the cheese makers"
Getting back on topic here is a link to Brew dog's views on craft beer and what it is.
https://www.brewdog.com/lowdown/blog/defining-craft-beer


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## idzy (1/12/15)

> vibe, artisan, expansion, margins, brewpub, niche market, popularity, independent, family, marketing, business model, local distribution, profitability, growth, success, culture, economics,


Words used in this thread so far. The interesting thing is that these words have nothing to do with the actual beer itself. They have to do with where the beer is, where it is not, how much it costs, what business produces it, how profitable it is or how much aspiration it has.

I want to add a new one, philosophy. The philosophy of making good quality beer. That is what sets craft beer apart and the reason people drink it. People want flavour, variety and quality. By having a good philosophy, you will achieve this end and be known as a craft brewer. If your philosophy is anything else, you will be found out, tried, tested and shunned.

EDIT: Grammar


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## Dave70 (1/12/15)

Maby better off re naming this the bogged down in semantics thread then.


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## Feldon (1/12/15)

The contemporary notion of 'craftmanship' has its roots in the Arts and Crafts movement which kicked off in Britain in the 1880s. It was driven by early British socialists who saw the worker being a slave to machinery, creatively detached from the products they were producing. Arts and Crafts guilds and societies sprang up to train men in the crafts of their forefathers and employ them in collective workshops where they and designers worked in unison. They produced things such as furniture, ceramics, jewellery and wrought iron ware as well as dabbled in architecture. World War I blew the whole ideal apart and by the 1930s Modernism took its place, but its philosophy still lives on.

Plenty about it on the internet to read. A good place to start is the entry for Charles Ashbee at Wikipedia.

Its a challenging concept. The idea of being a slave to machinery is something to keep in mind next time you turn on your PID.


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## Dave70 (1/12/15)

Feldon said:


> The contemporary notion of 'craftmanship' has its roots in the Arts and Crafts movement which kicked off in Britain in the 1880s. It was driven by early British socialists who saw the worker being a slave to machinery, creatively detached from the products they were producing. Arts and Crafts guilds and societies sprang up to train men in the crafts of their forefathers and employ them in collective workshops where they and designers worked in unison. They produced things such as furniture, ceramics, jewellery and wrought iron ware as well as dabbled in architecture. World War I blew the whole ideal apart and by the 1930s Modernism took its place, but its philosophy still lives on.
> 
> Plenty about it on the internet to read. A good place to start is the entry for Charles Ashbee at Wikipedia.
> 
> Its a challenging concept. The idea of being a slave to machinery is something to keep in mind next time you turn on your PID.


Don't suppose you caught that show that traced the history of automaton on fox last night from its roots from watchmaking, clockwork analogs to the point where the power loom replaced traditional weaving?
The Luddites never had a chance.

Yes sorry. OT.


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## TheWiggman (1/12/15)

Say I'm the owner of a craft brewery (whatever that is) due to my quality beer philosophy, which isn't a bad concept raised by idzy. I have my range of ales, dark and big beers. Everything's written on chalkboards and there are pictures of the brewing process, which as far as I'm aware is what constitutes craft brewing.
If I'm impassioned to create a CUB-alike using PoR, white sugarz, JW pils and filter it so it's brighter than the sun, am I creating a craft beer? Am I no longer a craft brewer? Because I_ would_ create something like that in the interests of pleasing the punters who aren't too fond of pumpkin ales and IIPAs, and to be honest I would be very proud to put out a beer that keeps mega swill drinkers happy. I'd argue it's good quality beer.
Back to my mushroom to ponder...


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## Feldon (1/12/15)

Dave70 said:


> Don't suppose you caught that show that traced the history of automaton on fox last night from its roots from watchmaking, clockwork analogs to the point where the power loom replaced traditional weaving?
> The Luddites never had a chance.
> 
> Yes sorry. OT.


No didn't see it. But I've always had a soft spot for the Luddites. They've often got a bad press, especially since the 1950s when the world started worshiping 'progress'. (Yeah, knock down that old building and put up a concrete and glass tower, its progress!).


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## idzy (1/12/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Say I'm the owner of a craft brewery (whatever that is) due to my quality beer philosophy, which isn't a bad concept raised by idzy. I have my range of ales, dark and big beers. Everything's written on chalkboards and there are pictures of the brewing process, which as far as I'm aware is what constitutes craft brewing.
> If I'm impassioned to create a CUB-alike using PoR, white sugarz, JW pils and filter it so it's brighter than the sun, am I creating a craft beer? Am I no longer a craft brewer? Because I_ would_ create something like that in the interests of pleasing the punters who aren't too fond of pumpkin ales and IIPAs, and to be honest I would be very proud to put out a beer that keeps mega swill drinkers happy. I'd argue it's good quality beer.
> Back to my mushroom to ponder...


Preying on appealing to the punters and mega swill drinkers is what the global corps do. They are more focused on marketing their cheap sub-standard product that is made will those same types of ingredients. In their own right, there is nothing wrong with PoR (can't believe I just said that), JW Pils and filtering. The point that would be made is that there are much better tasting lagers that can be made than what they do.


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## GalBrew (1/12/15)

idzy said:


> In their own right, there is nothing wrong with PoR (can't believe I just said that), JW Pils and filtering. The point that would be made is that there are much better tasting lagers that can be made.


To be fair that is a subjective assessment of flavour. So long as the beer is made well with appropriate ingredients (which JW pils is for style I guess), fermented well and lagered appropriately then that is 'craft' right?


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## idzy (1/12/15)

GalBrew said:


> To be fair that is a subjective assessment of flavour. So long as the beer is made well with appropriate ingredients (which JW pils is for style I guess), fermented well and lagered appropriately then that is 'craft' right?


Precisely what I said. The philosophy of making good quality beer. That is what sets craft beer apart and the reason people drink it. People want flavour, variety and quality.


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## Mr. No-Tip (1/12/15)

Visit the US. The top ten craft guys have breweries bigger than little creatures Geelong- maybe bugger than some CUB places - many of them have two facilities east and west coast. They're huge, but still craft.


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## MichaelM (1/12/15)

One could argue that the philosophy of manufacturers of mass produced beer also have the philosophy of making quality beer that uses the best ingredients albeit for the consumer who only knows or prefers pale fizzy lagers. After all if they failed in making a quality product they wouldn't be doing so well. So in terms of philosophy there would need to be a differentiation beyond quality and variety, though they are important. Something that mass marketed beer manufacturers can't offer.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/12/15)

An excellent response to the Brewdog question of a craft brewery.This also applies here. 

Thanks for trying to make sense of this mess. However, I'm now beginning to feel that it’s too late to work out what we are really talking about, 'craft beer'/'craft brewery' have become marketing terms. For example – do any of these really come from a ‘craft brewery’?• Marston's Revisionist Craft Lager (4%),• Fuller's new lager, Frontier (4.5%), promoted as a: 'new wave craft lager' • Brains with their 'craft brewery' and (bottled) IPA • Greene King (Morland): 'Old Crafty Hen' .......No-one knows what ‘carft brewery’ really means .... no matter how good a definition is worked out, the confusion will continue ..... ‘craft’ is now a marketing term. Hopefully, in the UK, we will return to the use of clear definitions: cask conditioned beer, keg …… and stop using meaningless terms such as ‘craft beer.’


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## Danscraftbeer (1/12/15)

My take = $0.02. Beer is the craft.
Megaswill commercial beer dominates the conception of beer over most of the population. That massive influence on a small square in the realm of beer. Step outside the square more into the realm of the enormously broad range. There is a beer out there for every person including those who say "ew I don't like beer".

Though that enormous broad range is a very small square on the commercial market. Basically unobtainable. Hence home brew. :chug:


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## Kingy (1/12/15)

I havnt read the hole thread but when a brewery gets brought out like mountain goat is it still crafty.


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## spog (1/12/15)

Feldon said:


> The contemporary notion of 'craftmanship' has its roots in the Arts and Crafts movement which kicked off in Britain in the 1880s. It was driven by early British socialists who saw the worker being a slave to machinery, creatively detached from the products they were producing. Arts and Crafts guilds and societies sprang up to train men in the crafts of their forefathers and employ them in collective workshops where they and designers worked in unison. They produced things such as furniture, ceramics, jewellery and wrought iron ware as well as dabbled in architecture. World War I blew the whole ideal apart and by the 1930s Modernism took its place, but its philosophy still lives on.
> 
> Plenty about it on the internet to read. A good place to start is the entry for Charles Ashbee at Wikipedia.
> 
> Its a challenging concept. The idea of being a slave to machinery is something to keep in mind next time you turn on your PID.


I have a nice piece of " trench art " my Grandpa brought back from the trenches of WW 1 and a piece given to my Norwegien Grandma by a Russian PoW as thanks for her help,both inventive and priceless for what they are.
Hand made IS art,hand made IS craft. A skill sadly lacking in today's expectant society......until you find IT !


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## Danscraftbeer (1/12/15)

spog said:


> I have a nice piece of " trench art " my Grandpa brought back from the trenches of WW 1 and a piece given to my Norwegien Grandma by a Russian PoW as thanks for her help,both inventive and priceless for what they are.
> Hand made IS art,hand made IS craft. A skill sadly lacking in today's expectant society......until you find IT !


Please consider readers of all kind. I myself don't know what you refer to as IS craft? :unsure:
I'm a common dumbarse that gets easily confused with abbreviations etc.


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## Droopy Brew (1/12/15)

IF it doesnt contain at least dried macaroni, clag glue and either gold or silver paint, Im sorry it isnt craft AFAIC


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## spog (1/12/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Please consider readers of all kind. I myself don't know what you refer to as IS craft? :unsure:
> I'm a common dumbarse that gets easily confused with abbreviations etc.


#107 was what I was referring to, O T .


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## idzy (1/12/15)

MichaelM said:


> One could argue that the philosophy of manufacturers of mass produced beer also have the philosophy of making quality beer that uses the best ingredients albeit for the consumer who only knows or prefers pale fizzy lagers. After all if they failed in making a quality product they wouldn't be doing so well. So in terms of philosophy there would need to be a differentiation beyond quality and variety, though they are important. Something that mass marketed beer manufacturers can't offer.


This is to suppose that they are making a quality product because they are doing well. This is to say that there are not products in the market that are sold at scale. I think even you would agree Michael, that this is simply not the case and therefore your argument doesn't stand.

The manufacturers focus on making the largest volume of beer for as cheap as possible, whilst maintaining some level of quality yes, flavour is subjective, but most would agree no and variety most would agree no. To a large extent the mass marketed mass produced lagers taste near on the same, using rice/corn, pils, pride of ringwood, super alpha and sugar.


Craftbrewing is the philosophy of making good quality beer. That is what sets craft beer apart and the reason people drink it. People want flavour, variety and quality.


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## Danscraftbeer (1/12/15)

spog said:


> #107 was what I was referring to, O T .


erm, :unsure: I must be a dumb arse because that's at least as cryptic as my first confusion.


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## Danscraftbeer (1/12/15)

Please can people just spell out the words for frigs sake. What's so hard with that. 
To expect every reader to know abbreviations is ridiculous because abbreviations can be interpreted in a multitude a variations leaving one in a multitude of interpretations. Blaahhhh! Or I'm just stupid and then again I wont be the only one. Is there some in house code or something? :chug:


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## Feldon (2/12/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Please consider readers of all kind. I myself don't know what you refer to as IS craft? :unsure:
> I'm a common dumbarse that gets easily confused with abbreviations etc.


By "IS craft" he simply meant "is craft" - he was using the capital letters to emphasise the word 'is'. In internet speak its called 'shouting'.

"IS" was not used as an abbreviation for anything. Same with the other capitalisations he used in his post.


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## wide eyed and legless (2/12/15)

IS - Islamic State. h34r:


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## Dave70 (2/12/15)

Here's the definition via Bestnaturalfoods.com according to no less a luminary than the late Greg Noonan.

http://www.brewerspublications.com/authors/greg-noonan/


Craft-brewed Beers

*“Craft beer should mean natural beer brewed in a non-automated brewery of less than 50-barrel brew length, using traditional methods and premium, whole, natural ingredients, and no flavor-lessening adjuncts or extracts, additives or preservatives.” – brewmaster Greg Noonan*

Full article.

http://bestnaturalfoods.com/newsletter/organic_beer.html


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## sponge (2/12/15)

Non-automated ey..?

Pretty sure there's a whole bunch of homebrewers who wouldn't be making craft beer at all then.

Just beer, only beer.

No craft for you.


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## Dave70 (2/12/15)

sponge said:


> Non-automated ey..?
> 
> Pretty sure there's a whole bunch of homebrewers who wouldn't be making craft beer at all then.
> 
> ...


Does the fact that I occasionally use an auto lever bench capper for bottling instead of corks and a wooden mallet make me 'big beer' do you think?


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## klangers (2/12/15)

The notion of "craft" as being anything other than a marketing ploy is simply absurd. It has no tangible meaning. The whole argument with labels and origin is a reflection of the industry-wide regulations in Australia.

It was originally coined by what _were_ small breweries trying to differentiate themselves from the big boys so they could make a buck. Since they had nothing else to compete on, they pushed the "hand-made", small batch, warm-and-fuzzy-let's-grow-a-big-beard-and-give-our-beers-cutsie-names operation.

All of a sudden people liked the beers that were being brewed, and the small breweries became big. The big breweries noticed and decided to do what they do best - cash in on trends to make money.

The fact that this thread is so long is testament to how well the marketing ploy of "craft" has worked. It's one of those words where everyone has their own interpretation and is therefore perfect to divide a market through confusion. Where we had "the beer market", we now have "the craft beer market" as well. This is a marketer's dream because they can now pit the two camps against each other ("only wankers drink craft beer" vs. "don't be uncouth and drink that SWILL") and now we have more fronts to fight the competition war.

This notion that no automation or shit technology in general somehow makes beer "craft" is just naïve. There's no way "craft" beer in this sense would be anything other than a curious oddity that would be brewed at home due to the ridiculously high labour requirements. Unless, of course, mechanisation is allowed (but don't worry "automation" is still banned) so the 100 hL mash tun doesn't need to be stirred by a team of 10 strong men (with massive, un-hygienic beards of course). While we're at it let's fire up the coal boiler and ensure that it's hand-stoked, so we'll have to employ a full time stoker (and pay for his black-lung health complications). At the end of the day, automation and mechanisation have enabled vastly better living and working conditions for all industries. It's not about making the product worse, in many cases it makes it better by improving repeatability and traceability.

The reality is that beer is beer - a fermented drink made from saccharified starch and flavours.


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## sponge (2/12/15)

Dave70 said:


> Does the fact that I occasionally use an auto lever bench capper for bottling instead of corks and a wooden mallet make me 'big beer' do you think?


Well I never.. Might as well be CUB.

Timber fire, horse-and-cart pulley, fermented in an old bathtub or nada.


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## Dave70 (2/12/15)

klangers said:


> The notion of "organic" as being anything other than a marketing ploy is simply absurd. It has no tangible meaning.


Just trying it on for size. Yep, makes for a nice fit.


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## TheWiggman (2/12/15)

I'm going to be literal and use an English dictionary.

Craft: "an activity involving skill in making things by hand." or "an activity that involves making something in a skillful way by using your hands" 
Beer: "Beer"

Craft beer is beer which is made skilfully by way of using your hands. Rules out many of the larger brewers, includes most of the smaller brewers.

When I do a web search for 'craft beer' above all else I get links to products, copious advertisements and locations which sell beer. Which says it all as far as I'm concerned and explains why we've been talking about this for 7 pages now.


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## Blind Dog (2/12/15)

At what point is beer 'made by hand'?. Every brewer knows that beer is made by yeast. So there is no such thing as craft beer, just people who think there is.

Personally, beer comes in 4 categories:
- beer I've never tried
- beer I've tried and wont bother trying again
- beer I've tried and enjoyed
- beer that's marginally better than anything else on offer, so its that or go home

Way too many 'craft' beers fall in the 2nd category.


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## Westo (2/12/15)

If its sold on tap at the local mega-swill pub then its a safe bet to say that its not craft beer!


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## wide eyed and legless (2/12/15)

This thread should have ended at post 128 by Klangers, this is a discussion that will never be resolved, and the small craft breweries should go back to being called "Micro Breweries".


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## GalBrew (2/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> This thread should have ended at post 128 by Klangers, this is a discussion that will never be resolved, and the small craft breweries should go back to being called "Micro Breweries".


Agreed!


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## Blind Dog (2/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> This thread should have ended at post 128 by Klangers, this is a discussion that will never be resolved, and the small craft breweries should go back to being called "Micro Breweries".


Or even post 8 by Galbrew - its all just marketing spin (Galbrew may have used a different term!)


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## spog (2/12/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Please can people just spell out the words for frigs sake. What's so hard with that.
> To expect every reader to know abbreviations is ridiculous because abbreviations can be interpreted in a multitude a variations leaving one in a multitude of interpretations. Blaahhhh! Or I'm just stupid and then again I wont be the only one. Is there some in house code or something? :chug:


If you were as pissed as I was you would have understood what a was blathering about......
I must learn to control myself,nah stuff that.


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## /// (2/12/15)

So with a bit of history with this topic, maybe what we want 'craft beer' to be is not the argument. What it ain't is maybe the point.

Beer is a food product. We went thru the 80's and 90's of consolidation. It happened, that's all fine. Maybe though, we like to see how things are made after a few years. We also like to know the bloke who makes the beer. 

With those things there will be a breadth of difference. A small shop who pays wages versus a mega company who pays dividends to shareholders maybe helps. With that, the small bloke can afford some risk, make something left of centre, heaven forbid they can make and sell something off the wall which is new and innovative and never been done before. And, he still pays himself a wage. Winner winner, chicken dinner

The mega takes a risk, it fails and with the loss is the 're-assignment' of the marketing manager responsible. The craft brewer made a different beer and it took a few weeks to sell. No one 'real-assigned', it's all good, it is craft beer and something new is tried.

And then someone came up with the idea of making a killer US IPA and then adding grape fruit to it. And then sold for a $USD 1 billion ... 

So what is craft? Something. Fluid and always changing


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## Dave70 (3/12/15)

TheWiggman said:


> I'm going to be literal and use an English dictionary.
> 
> Craft: "an activity involving skill in making things by hand." or "an activity that involves making something in a skillful way by using your hands"
> Beer: "Beer"
> ...


I'll see your literalisim and raise you some silliness. 
Fosters eh. Blow me down.


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## spog (3/12/15)

Dave70 said:


> I'll see your literalisim and raise you some silliness.
> Fosters eh. Blow me down.


Ahh,Fosters. I have a Fosters story for you all,so gather around kids and listen.
Twas an Arctic Xmas in Kirkenes northern Norway in the year 2000, a time of year when the sun doesn't come above the horizon so it's dark 24 hrs a day which probably goes some way to explain my older brothers demeanour ,tinted with his storm trooper attitude .
It was 27 degrees below zero and while waiting for the bus and being Aussies we spotted a pub.( right next to the bus stop ).
Upon entering we saw the pub was festooned with Fosters paraphernalia !
I said G,day to the barman and he said " oh Australian do want Fosters ?". And this is where it turned to shit.
My brother ever the diplomat replied, " **** off mate no body in Australia drinks that camels piss that's why your selling the shit here".
I kid you not.
The look on the poor buggers face was priceless , the quick talking on my behalf and asking for Norwegien beer to smooth the problem over and then talking about the cold and the differences in culture etc soon solved the problem.
And to this day the stormtrooper still owes me a slab of piss for saving our arses from being kicked out into the snow.
The useless prick wouldn't shout if a shark bit him....fuckwit.


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## Mardoo (2/1/16)

Here's a pretty interesting talk by Tony Magee, owner/originator of Lagunitas Brewing in the States. It's a talk he gave at a major-brewer marketing conference about the difference between craft and major breweries. He all but raises the finger at them 

http://www.craftbeer.com/wp-content/uploads/Tony_Magee_Final.pdf


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## yankinoz (2/1/16)

Whatever the definition.of craft beer, if the ACCC takes action against exclusionary contracts, as the article indicates might happen, it's good news.


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## Mardoo (2/1/16)

We also need a beer equivalent of the WET.


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## wide eyed and legless (2/1/16)

Good article, read one of Tony Magee's books, 'Can't shove a great life into a small dream'


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## Mardoo (2/1/16)

His "So You Want to Start A Brewery" is a great read. Just finished it


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## crowmanz (25/1/16)

Here it is again - hottest 100 sparks customary debate what is craft beer?


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## LAGERFRENZY (25/1/16)

At around four bucks a stubby at Uncles Dan's maybe it should be called Crafty beer?


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

craft

krɑːft/

_noun_




*1*.


an activity involving skill in making things by *hand*.
"the craft of cobbling"







Generally, unless your doing it by hand (grinding, mashing, boiling) .. . it ain't craft. 

Hardly any breweries out there that don't use some kind of automated gear these days I would have thought. 

*edit: Boutique* is probably the word that is wanted. But us burly beer drinking types don't want to be labelled as "boutique'

*boutique*

noun
1.
a small shop or a small specialty department within a larger store,especially one that sells fashionable clothes and accessories or aspecial selection of other merchandise.

2.
any small, exclusive business offering customized service:
Our advertising is handled by a new Madison Avenue boutique.


3.
*Informal.** a small business, department, etc., specializing in one aspect of a larger industry:*

4.
*of,** designating, or characteristic of a small, exclusive producer or business:*


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## Killer Brew (9/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> craft
> 
> krɑːft/
> 
> ...


FFS, so you have finished going on about what defines an ale and have now turned to craft?? Wouldn't be many craft breweries that are fully automated for a start so there is an element of doing it by hand involved. Aside from that and you have selected one very limited definition of the term to make your case. Try the following from Cambridge Dictionary for size.


craft


noun
UK /krɑːft/ US /kræft/







craft noun (SKILL)


B2 [C or U] plural crafts skill and experience, especially inrelation to making objects; a job or activity that needsskill and experience, or something produced using skill andexperience:the craft of furniture making/sewing/glassblowingpolitical/literary craftrural/ancient/traditional craftscraft workers (= skilled workers)


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## rude (9/6/16)

Wow this post is long haven't read the lot so apologies if this has already been said

Way out West here south of the river we have an LHBS called TWOC run owned by ROY

Started out as a craft shop by his wife Tina's World of Craft

Roy & co have muscled in & transformed it into a ripper craft brew shop

Now that's what I call crafty


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

Killer Brew said:


> FFS, so you have finished going on about what defines an ale and have now turned to craft?? Wouldn't be many craft breweries that are fully automated for a start so there is an element of doing it by hand involved. Aside from that and you have selected one very limited definition of the term to make your case. Try the following from Cambridge Dictionary for size.
> 
> 
> craft
> ...


Dueling dictionaries at 10 paces?


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

It's sort of like going down to the local markets to buy "craft products" to find out that many of them have driven up from Sydney with a lot of crap they ordered from China on eBay. 

Craft generally means hand made locally. That's my interpretation (opinion). You may have another and your entitled to it. 

If a so called "craft brewery" is putting out a couple hundred thousand litres a year, with automated machinery - that can hardly be called craft, can it?


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## sp0rk (9/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> It's sort of like going down to the local markets to buy "craft products" to find out that many of them have driven up from Sydney with a lot of crap they ordered from China on eBay.
> 
> Craft generally means hand made locally. That's my interpretation (opinion). You may have another and your entitled to it.
> 
> If a so called "craft brewery" is putting out a couple hundred thousand litres a year, with automated machinery - that can hardly be called craft, can it?


The generally accepted term in the US is based on a brewery's output, being independent and using traditional brewing methods
Australia hasn't really had a set definition for "craft beer" until CBIA came along in 2011, and their definition is a brewer who outputs under 40 million litres per year


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## Killer Brew (9/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> It's sort of like going down to the local markets to buy "craft products" to find out that many of them have driven up from Sydney with a lot of crap they ordered from China on eBay.
> 
> Craft generally means hand made locally. That's my interpretation (opinion). You may have another and your entitled to it.
> 
> If a so called "craft brewery" is putting out a couple hundred thousand litres a year, with automated machinery - that can hardly be called craft, can it?


What craft beer has to do with China and Ebay I have no idea. A couple of hundred thousand litres per year is nothing. Barely possible to be profitable at that level unless you are selling it all at retail margins rather than distributing. As such fairly much every brewery worthy of the name has some degree of automation. Hell, most of the homebrewers here use a degree of automation.


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

I suppose if they are all using Australian bottles, Australian paper, Australian cardboard, Australian crown caps, Australian glue, Australian machinery, Australian metal, Australian Ink, Australian vacuums, Australian broom to sweep with. 

Then yes, there is nothing to do with China. 

True though. I do use a chinese made esky as a mash tun at home. Guilty.


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

Getting of topic though .. it is truly a skillful thing to brew beer well and that is a true 'craft' granted. I wish I could do it.

But a brewery that cost several million dollars and is pumping out hundreds of thousands of litres of beer a year. That's pushing the definition IMO.


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## Killer Brew (9/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Getting of topic though .. it is truly a skillful thing to brew beer well and that is a true 'craft' granted. I wish I could do it.
> 
> But a brewery that cost several million dollars and is pumping out hundreds of thousands of litres of beer a year. That's pushing the definition IMO.


But that is the point. If you use a definition that craft beer is only that which comes from a brewery doing less than 100,000L p.a. then it is just as well that you are brewing for yourself as you will have very little to choose from at any retail outlet.


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

There's no reason they can't call them boutique beers or just 'beers'.
'Craft' is essentially just a misplaced marketing term.

it's like free range chooks. How many chooks in a shed is free range? ... Answer: none, because that's not 'free range.


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## sp0rk (9/6/16)

I would dare say boutique is a misplaced marketing term...
All the big boys were calling their beers boutique before the craft craze came along


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## Vini2ton (9/6/16)

It's probably been said earlier in the thread, I can't remember. But isn't CRAFT an acronym for a condition that happens when one over-imbibes.


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## Fraser's BRB (9/6/16)

Parks said:


> What I am trying to get at is I would like to know who makes the beer so I can choose where my money goes.
> 
> I certainly don't mind having good beer produced by the big guys as long as they aren't trying to fool me to think they are a little guy who is just trying to make a living.


This.

It's really that simple and as someone else said, $20k fines are too small for lack of truth in advertising. Even now, having been seriously learning about beer and who makes it for several years, I sometimes find it hard to tell by looking at the label, who actually brews the beer. It's deliberately deceptive and done purely to make a quick buck off those who may not know better.

Happy to buy a good beer off any producer, (although I do prefer to support the little guy) just don't pretend to be something you're not.


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## Killer Brew (9/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> There's no reason they can't call them boutique beers or just 'beers'.
> 'Craft' is essentially just a misplaced marketing term.
> it's like free range chooks. How many chooks in a shed is free range? ... Answer: none, because that's not 'free range.


I don't think that it is as it refers to the skill and hands on nature of the brewer.

In your world it would seem the only beer worthy of the title would be an ale sans hops made in a brewery producing less than 1000 barrels per year by a brewer using only his bare hands and physical prowess to get the job done. Should it also be delivered by horse and cart? You understand that this is not medieval England right?


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## good4whatAlesU (9/6/16)

In my world there would be a great deal more 'craft' breweries because;

a) the alcohol excise would be lower, and:
b) regulations would be simpler.

no need for horse and cart, craft can be delivered by droned. Just watch out for teenagers and sling shots.


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## Roosterboy (9/6/16)

Fraser's BRB said:


> This.
> 
> It's really that simple and as someone else said, $20k fines are too small for lack of truth in advertising. Even now, having been seriously learning about beer and who makes it for several years, I sometimes find it hard to tell by looking at the label, who actually brews the beer. It's deliberately deceptive and done purely to make a quick buck off those who may not know better.
> 
> Happy to buy a good beer off any producer, (although I do prefer to support the little guy) just don't pretend to be something you're not.


As Parks has said and Fraser's BRB and many others , great points. I also have some other things I can't stand and that's a large retail outlet who
makes out it provides a large selection of craft beers and if you go through and count them , there aren't many.
Coopers don't count as a craft brewer, but I love their attitude , and I ALWAYS have some Coopers in the fridge because they symbolize what a Craft Brewer
should be . They 're owned by the people of their homeland , their reputation is paramount, family pride that comes when the big guys come knocking on
your door and you tell them to go f... themselves. I hope they never sell out.


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## Killer Brew (9/6/16)

Roosterboy said:


> As Parks has said and Fraser's BRB and many others , great points. I also have some other things I can't stand and that's a large retail outlet who
> makes out it provides a large selection of craft beers and if you go through and count them , there aren't many.
> Coopers don't count as a craft brewer, but I love their attitude , and I ALWAYS have some Coopers in the fridge because they symbolize what a Craft Brewer
> should be . They 're owned by the people of their homeland , their reputation is paramount, family pride that comes when the big guys come knocking on
> your door and you tell them to go f... themselves. I hope they never sell out.


Absolutely. And add to that their long term support of the homebrewer. Mind you that is a two way street and they openly admit that they owe their ongoing existence to the homebrew market that got them through the tough times.


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## GalBrew (9/6/16)

I like to think Coopers in the same way as Anchor. Still 'craft' (whatever that means) but at the extreme end in terms of size.


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