# Help! Flat Beer



## joel_cabban (1/4/10)

i have been brewing can and kilo for a little while, and have made a keg setup out of a 215L chest freezer, with a fridgemate to keep it at about -1...

my problem has been flat beer (still managed to drink it, but it would be nice if it wasnt flat)

i'm charging kegs at 30-35psi, then bringing it down to 10 to serve, before taking it back up overnight...

-thomas coopers australian lager: flat (didn't really measure gas or temp much, gassing in an esky), but i think it got more gassy towards the bottom of the keg?
-indian pale ale: flat, though this keg is still fairly new gassed at 30psi @ 0~-2 degrees for 5 days, still flat, pouring 3/4 head at first.

is my keg too full? i fill it up to under the gas dip tube, i'm gassing through the gas port... its shitting me!?!

any suggestions? cheers


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## Brewman_ (2/4/10)

Hi Joel_cabban,

Are you trying to carb up at room temp? Why are you bring the temp up and down, like "overnight"? Your keg is not too full that should not be am issue.

Have you tried to naturally carb your kegs, this is the simplest way to start. If you really wanto to force carb there are some instructions here that will guide you, I think it is called Al's or Ross's method or something like that.

Fear.


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## joel_cabban (2/4/10)

i've got the keg in my freezer, where the temp fluctuates between -2 and 0 degrees, where i have the gas bottle and everything in the freezer. the first keg was a bit of a shambles, because i didnt have the freezer ready, thomas coopers australian heritage lager in an icebox at 10psi for about 2 weeks.

i'm going to leave the keg at 10psi (after it has been at 30psi for 5 days to no carbonation), is this naturally carbonating? am i doing the right thing?

cheers


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## Brewman_ (2/4/10)

Hi,

Found the link, hope this works.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...on#topicoptions

Natural carbonation is adding sugar - dextrose to you keg when you fill it and then letting it sit like a bottle of home brew, to allow it to carbonate. This will take the same time as a bottle, so 2 weeks or so, but is really simple and reliable.

What you are doing is force carbonating and that is the topic of the link. The main thing i sthat you have to have your keg cold. there is a heap of science to it, but read the link first.

Fear


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## Bribie G (2/4/10)

joel_cabbban said:


> i have been brewing can and kilo for a little while, and have made a keg setup out of a 215L chest freezer, with a fridgemate to keep it at about -1...
> 
> my problem has been flat beer (still managed to drink it, but it would be nice if it wasnt flat)
> 
> ...



Still confused, you say your freezer is at -1 on the fridgemate. So are you saying that you keep the kegs out at room temperature, put them in the freezer to let them cool down to 10 for serving, then take them out again to warm up, or what ?  Erm why not just set the fridgemate to 10 or maybe 6 (as I would do for a nice cold draught beer) and just leave them there full time? They would carb up nicely in just a few days and stay carbed and fizzy.


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## joel_cabban (2/4/10)

thanks for the link fear

bribie nah i fill the keg, then put it in the freezer at -1 to gas, where it has been at 30psi for 5-6days. i turned the gas down to 10psi and purged to let some pressure out before serving, and when i poured, it was making 2/3 of a schooner of head at best, and the beer was flat... i had 4 schooners over about an hour to make sure it wasn't just unsettled in the keg or something, so yeah still unsure what it might be...

the photo shows the beer and gas lines, and how there hooked up, but i can't see how this would be the problem


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## joel_cabban (2/4/10)

how much dex should i add to naturally carb, and would it be best to keep it at room temp for 2 weeks or in the fridge at -1??

cheers


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## DUANNE (2/4/10)

joel_cabbban said:


> thanks for the link fear
> 
> bribie nah i fill the keg, then put it in the freezer at -1 to gas, where it has been at 30psi for 5-6days. i turned the gas down to 10psi and purged to let some pressure out before serving, and when i poured, it was making 2/3 of a schooner of head at best, and the beer was flat... i had 4 schooners over about an hour to make sure it wasn't just unsettled in the keg or something, so yeah still unsure what it might be...
> 
> the photo shows the beer and gas lines, and how there hooked up, but i can't see how this would be the problem




looks to me to be the beer is actually over carbonated.also that beer line looks like its to short and you may need to balance the system better.heres alink that may help
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=24


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## henderjo (3/4/10)

Hi Joel,

I've been kegging since day one, so know nothing about bottles... having said this - take your time to fully understand both links posted and you should sort your worries. For my two cents, don't bother force carbing as it can end in tears and a new reg ($$$). Your set up looks solid, but needs a couple of things if you'd like a quick win.

1 - add a one way 'check' valve on you gas line between reg and keg (close to your reg) if you try force carbing you may get beer in your reg = game over.
2 - you need make your beer line longer. As a rough guide, I use about 2.5 meters @ 80 psi. Just roll up the line into a coil and secure with zip ties or similar. Go to the trouble of making it one piece with no joins - no joins means less turbulence which will just give you foaming.
3 - turn your gas up... to about 60-80 psi.

Some things I found out along the way:

I needed to understand those two posts to make great beer.
If the tap isn't cold it'll foam - so I always end up wasting the half glass of beer each night... then it's fine.
DON'T TOUCH THE REG!!!!! EVER!!!!... once you've decided on, and set your pressure, leave it along, yes even over night, yes even the week you'll be away... if your system is solid you won't loose any gas.
To carb - just attach your gas line at pouring pressure and wait... ... ... it'll be ok by day 3, good by day 4, and great by day 5, and most likely gone a day later if you have mates <_< 
When the pressure (excuse the pun) is on, and you need it gassed now... just attach the gas as per usual and shake, roll, agitate the keg for 10 minutes or so [you can shake the crap out of it!]... let it rest for 5 or 10 minutes, spill the first beer, then it'll be at about day 4  (maybe cloudy if you don't clear or filter your beer though)
Use a check valve - it's saved my reg once or twice.

Let us know how you go.

Hendo.


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## joel_cabban (8/4/10)

hey i bumped the gas up to around 13psi the other day and now its pouring all foam! 2 pics here, one straight after pour, one after 10 min and the topped up..


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## henderjo (8/4/10)

So how long is the line from your keg to tap?


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## joel_cabban (8/4/10)

after 10 min


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## joel_cabban (8/4/10)

4 meters... so i dont get it? it worked better (1/4 beer to 3/4 head) with a 600mm hose... both flat


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## QSR (8/4/10)

According to your previous photo......the beer line from keg to tap does not look anywhere near 4 metres - doesn'y even look like it would be 2 metres ( unless it is just that photo )
Your pouring pressure looks just slightly too high looking at your regulator too.
I agree with one of the posters that your beer is also overgassed ( none of these things are helping you to pour a good beer at the moment )


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## henderjo (8/4/10)

Joel,

My mistake - psi and KPA arggg!!! I'm on kpa, sorry. Gassing as you did (in original post) @ 30psi for 5-6 days will WAY over do it! search for 'over gassed' to help you fix your issue this time. next time just aim for around 5 days at pouring pressure and temp, say 10 psi.

[edit]

I've been kegging since day one, so know nothing about bottles... having said this - take your time to fully understand both links posted and you should sort your worries. For my two cents, don't bother force carbing as it can end in tears and a new reg ($$$). Your set up looks solid, but needs a couple of things if you'd like a quick win.

1 - add a one way 'check' valve on you gas line between reg and keg (close to your reg) if you try force carbing you may get beer in your reg = game over.
2 - you need make your beer line longer. As a rough guide, I use about 2.5 meters @ 10 psi. Just roll up the line into a coil and secure with zip ties or similar. Go to the trouble of making it one piece with no joins - no joins means less turbulence which will just give you foaming.
3 - keep your reg at about 10 psi.

Some things I found out along the way:

I needed to understand those two posts to make great beer.
If the tap isn't cold it'll foam - so I always end up wasting the half glass of beer each night... then it's fine.
DON'T TOUCH THE REG!!!!! EVER!!!!... once you've decided on, and set your pressure, leave it along, yes even over night, yes even the week you'll be away... if your system is solid you won't loose any gas.
To carb - just attach your gas line at pouring pressure and wait... ... ... it'll be ok by day 3, good by day 4, and great by day 5, and most likely gone a day later if you have mates dry.gif
When the pressure (excuse the pun) is on, and you need it gassed now... just attach the gas as per usual and shake, roll, agitate the keg for 10 minutes or so [you can shake the crap out of it!]... let it rest for 5 or 10 minutes, spill the first beer, then it'll be at about day 4 (maybe cloudy if you don't clear or filter your beer though)
Use a check valve - it's saved my reg once or twice.

Let us know how you go.


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## mccuaigm (8/4/10)

Joel,

Make sure the beer is not frozen too mate. I had a couple that behave just like that if they get a little too cold. Shake the keg a little & make sure there are no floaties in it...

Cheers
Goldy


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## goomboogo (8/4/10)

Joel, your beer is definitely over carbonated. 5 days at 30 psi or 210kpa for beer that is being chilled as low as yours is going to make for an extremely gassy beer. The reason it seems flat is because the gas is coming out of solution (the glass full of gassy froth) and by the time the froth dies down there is no gas in the beer that remains.

If you are going to gas at serving pressure then 10psi(70 kpa) is going to be closer to the mark. The exact number will depend on the desired carbonation level as well as the temperature of the beer.


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## QSR (8/4/10)

Yes, also forgot to mention your fridgemate temperarure is too low.
I have set my fridgemate at 4 degrees ( where it fluctuates between 2 and 5 degrees ) have never altered it since.

What you need to do now is get rid of some of that excess gas in your keg.
This time only........turn off your gas. Pull the pressure release valve up until the hissing ( gas escaping ) almost stops or stops ( about 5 seconds or so )and then shut the valve back off. Leave the gas turned off still. Release it again tomorrow morning and afternoon....but try it each afternoon before releasing until you can pour a good beer from it. You will find you will rarely need to add gas to pour again......if so....just turn on your gas for about 2 to 3 seconds.....and it will pour good again......

Hope this helps :beerbang:


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## joel_cabban (12/4/10)

ok so i've brought the gas down to 10psi, raised the temp to between 0 and 2 degrees, waited 3 days (releasing and shaking periodically), poured beer... 

first half schooner was foam (due to hot lines outside the freezer?)- left to sit, calmed down, went flat (expected)

poured a 7oz: beer looked good! good colour plenty of bubbles stuck to the inside of the glass, and some rising, lots of creamy head but looked like a decent beer!

poured another: all foam!!

first thing: it looks like its kinda dribbling a out of the tap when pouring (compared to a commercial tap) any comments? normal?

and second: could it be the beer??

ive tried: new glass, clean glass, dirty glass, different shapes of glasses (even one shaped like a naked chick - no luck funnily enough...), different ways of pouring, higher pressure, lower pressure, standing on one leg whilst pouring...

attached photo shows foam being poured at 10psi, keg temp 1 degree thru about 4m of beer line, 1/3 keg, the line is about 1/2 keg old...

thanks everyone for your patience, at least if anyone else ever experiences this problem, just about every possible cause has been discussed...


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## bullfrog (13/4/10)

I'd point to your 4m lines as the reason the beer 'dribbles' out of the tap. Just going on my limited understanding of keg systems (currently building mine), the average line length should be about half that. That's what my LHBS bloke told me, anyways (although it's moot for me because I bought Celi taps).


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## usastman (13/4/10)

I had major issues when I start kegging - got to the point of giving up.

Had same issues with heaps of foam and flat beer.

This is what I do now.

- Chill keg to 1-2 deg
- Attach gas to out post
- Gas at 45 psi for 45 seconds rocking keg- make sure you have a return valve
- Leave for 24 hours
- Burp and pour

When you pour and you still have too much foam - burp keg every few hours.

You will find that as you burp the keg a few times - the foam will get less until you get just the right carbonation.

Its important to only gas for about 45 seconds.

I have done this for my last few kegs and am now happy with the process.


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## unrealeous (13/4/10)

joel_cabbban said:


> first thing: it looks like its kinda dribbling a out of the tap when pouring (compared to a commercial tap) any comments? normal?
> 
> and second: could it be the beer??


My 0.02 - I think your beer sounds over-carbonated. It will foam in the beer line and come out as head when its over carbonated - and ends up flat in the glass when the head goes down. So I'd highly doubt there is anything wrong with your beer.

What I'd suggest is get all the gas out and start over. You've tried the forced carbonating method, well why not try the 'force flattening method' - basically give the keg a bit of a rock, burp it, repeat a bunch of times, until you can start rocking it harder and it doesn't burp that much. Let the keg sit for an hour or more, then see how it pours. Often it will pour under its own pressure, but you can reattach the gas to slowly turn it up to push some out. If it comes out flatter than you want - at least you know which direction to go with the gas carbonating.

Kegging isn't that fun first time around, I think most people go through the kegging blues at first. I had a hell of a time, but with a bit of practice you'll never look back.


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## henderjo (13/4/10)

Hey Joel,

Saga continues! Don't lose heart - thik you've got most of it right just need to balance your system.

Beer is most likely fine, except for the level of Co2 trapped inside <_< 

The pour rate you describe is due to the drag/friction caused by the beer line. Longer line requires more force [read higher pressure] to push the beer through the line. So my 2 cents now... cut about 50cms off your beer line and see how it flows... stick with the 10 psi - only ever adjust one thing at a time (might pay to read the balancing your system post again).

Sounds like your beer is still over carbed though... keep trying to de-gass your beer as per previous post until you can't get any more (gas) out of it using the pressure relief valve on the top of your keg - ie it's flat - then re-gas (carb) as I described above. It will always take more than a couple of beers to clear the expelled Co2 (gas) from the beer line. Have a look at your beer line, are there any places where there is no beer? ie it's replaced by gas - if so this needs to be cleared before you'll get a decent pour.

In the mean time have you done another brew to connect at pouring pressure for 5 days or so?  

Let us know when you've got it right!


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## joel_cabban (13/4/10)

ok so i cut a metre off the hose, it poured a bit more full, but still foam... new brew will be done soon, perhaps this will be better.


my brew shop guy said to gas at 34psi (240kpa) for 36 hours... anyone else use this method?


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## mccuaigm (13/4/10)

I had the same issues, still do sometimes when my fridge goes a little screwy.

I just throw the keg in, let it get cold for a day & connect up the gas once cold. I generally leave it at around 60-70 kpa for at least 4 or 5 days.

I have also used your method mentioned with success too, there are many threads on this one, keep at it & decide what workjs best for you mate.

Happy kegging


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## beerbog (14/4/10)

What I do is add the keg to the fridge, warm, then set the reg to 300kpa for 24 hours, turns out perfect. After that leave at 100kpa, adjust for correct pouring pressure.


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## henderjo (15/4/10)

joel_cabbban said:


> ok so i cut a metre off the hose, it poured a bit more full, but still foam... new brew will be done soon, perhaps this will be better.
> 
> 
> my brew shop guy said to gas at 34psi (240kpa) for 36 hours... anyone else use this method?




I went to a brew day where I was told 40 hours @ 40 psi - which is pretty close to what you have been told.... But it turned out over carbed - that's why I went back to just connecting at pouring pressure and waiting the 5 days. Works well, and it's very consistent. Having room for two kegs, it might work for you too.

Hendo.


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## thesunsettree (15/4/10)

henderjo said:


> I went to a brew day where I was told 40 hours @ 40 psi - which is pretty close to what you have been told.... But it turned out over carbed - that's why I went back to just connecting at pouring pressure and waiting the 5 days. Works well, and it's very consistent. Having room for two kegs, it might work for you too.
> 
> Hendo.




hi mate,

from my experience thats too much by a fair bit on my brews. maybe try 32psi @ 40-42hrs (i do 42hrs mostly) thats what i do . works an absolute treat for me, spot on.

cheers
matt


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## goomboogo (16/4/10)

henderjo said:


> I went to a brew day where I was told 40 hours @ 40 psi - which is pretty close to what you have been told.... But it turned out over carbed - that's why I went back to just connecting at pouring pressure and waiting the 5 days. Works well, and it's very consistent. Having room for two kegs, it might work for you too.
> 
> Hendo.



A major factor to consider is the temperature of the beer. If it is room temperature (say 20c) when it goes into the fridge and onto gas then you may get away with the 40 hours @40psi. But if the beer has been chilled prior to gassing (e.g if you cold conditioned the beer prior to kegging) then 40 hours @40psi is going to be overcarbed. In the first example, the beer won't accept that much gas for the first day or so whilst it is still coming down in temperature.

So, regarding the original post, the pressure and times suggested by the lhbs have omitted the important piece of information regarding the temperature of the beer. As of your last post Joel, the beer is still over-gassed. Continue to release gas as others have suggested and you'll get there eventually.


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## zabond (16/4/10)

as another thought,if your've burped the keg as others have sugested,and are still pouring foam and cant fix prob it could be the seal on the pickup tube [had this prob once,couldn't figureout why brews were getting progressingly headier each brew when temps/gas press ect were constant]when keg was empty removed out conecter and tube and found I could suck air when sucking on tube[if that makes sense]checked tube "O"ring and found it worn'10c oring prob fixed


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## beerbog (16/4/10)

Gibbo1 said:


> What I do is add the keg to the fridge, warm, then set the reg to 300kpa for 24 hours, turns out perfect. After that leave at 100kpa, adjust for correct pouring pressure.




I guarantee this works, as long as the keg goes into the fridge warm, not prechilled. :chug:


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## zoidbergmerc (16/4/10)

Gibbo1 said:


> I guarantee this works, as long as the keg goes into the fridge warm, not prechilled. :chug:



I do it this way too.


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## SirDrinkalot (17/4/10)

24 hours at 40psi is the general rule that the people I know use.


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## zoidbergmerc (17/4/10)

SirDrinkalot said:


> 24 hours at 40psi is the general rule that the people I know use.



300 KPA = 43.5 PSI

Same dif.


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## joel_cabban (23/4/10)

would there be any reason for the beer not holding gas?? apart from being over carbed?

from the chart i've looked at from [post="0"]http://www.wortgames.com/reckoner/reckoner.pdf[/post]

i've got my fridge at 1degC, so for "typical" carbonation (2.5), the chart says 9.3psi or 64kpa is ideal... which is how i have it set. does this look shonky to anyone?

from the symptoms i've got, everyone's saying over carbed beer, but if i lower the pressure any more it takes almost a minute to pour a schooner.


would it make sense if the beer wasn't quite finished fermenting (although SG was stable for 2 days before racking), and producing more gas?

i've pulled my tap apart to look for any rough edges, even pulled the spring out to give it a more direct flow.


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## stew.w (23/4/10)

i chill my beer in the fermenter to 4c then keg it, connect the gas at 300kPa and roll the keg on its side for 50 seconds.
then i turn off the gas and keep rolling the keg until the pressure stops dropping (100-120kPa)
put it back in the fridge and pour a beer :icon_cheers: 
never had any problems and my beer lines are reasonably short too.

cheers,

stewart


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## Brewman_ (23/4/10)

Hi Joel_cabban,

It sounds like you are getting info overload.

I agree that your beer is over carbed. Really before changing / cutting anything you have to reduce the gas in your beer, but it sounds a bit late.

Keep in mind, when you look at charts for carbing they are based on an equlibrium and that can take a hell of a long time to achieve if you set your guage at the pressure setting with flat beer, which is why people are suggesting high pressures for short periods of time - speed up this trasnfer of CO2 into your beer. Also keep in mind that any pressure setting must be set with he correct beer temperature. Then the amount of dissolved gas will be equivalent to static head pressure at say 1 Deg.C and 64Kpa - hopefully. But thats's to carb the beer, normally I would serve quite a bit lower, mayem 35 to 50 Kpa.

What I would suggest is.
1) Leaving your beer in the fridge disconnect the gas, and beer lines, open the pressure relief valve and leave it open for 24 Hrs.
2) After 24 Hrs, close the relief valve, reconnect the gas and beer lines, with no pressure, that is with the bottle & reg closed and no pressure in the lines.
3) Open the gas bottle, so the reg is still closed - no pressure on the keg. Then slowly open the reg and increase the pressure to just 20Kpa to start.
4) Get a bucket and pour off the first half a schooner.
5) Try and pour a beer. If it pours OK, increase the pressure ot 35Kpa, and pour the next, if that pours OK, your set.

Now if the beer is full of foam, repeat the above steps. Yes the beer will be pouring slowly, but don't worry about that, you can adjust this when you get the carbonation right. Continue this until the beer pours without a heap of foam. Then try to increas the pressure a little until the pour speed is right.

One other point. Avoid any advice that relates to starting the carbing processs from a warm keg. This is difficult to reproduce as your system may not cool the keg at the same rate as others members and as a result, while they may get good results you may not. Start your process from a cold keg, which should take about 2 days to acheive, but it can vary.

I would suggest on your next keg, just use sugar to prime the keg. Get that working first.

Fear_n_Loath


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## joel_cabban (24/4/10)

yeah i've tried to avoid carbing at anything more than serving pressure, failing that, priming with sugar was going to be my next plan of attack... any particulars to prime this way? (25.3 longnecks in 19L so 50.6 teaspoons?) haha 

what is the standard? should i add extra yeast for the priming sugar? any particular type? how long does it take to prime?


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## goomboogo (24/4/10)

Joel, [email protected] doesn't sound shonky. What does sound shonky is taking a minute to pour a scooner at this pressure. I am starting to wonder about the accuracy of your regulator gauge. Maybe the 64kpa is actually a lot lower than that. If this is the case it would have accentuated the problem when you were carbing at the higher pressure.

You say the beer seems to not be holding gas. Are you saying the beer is still flat? If so, is it still pouring with a big foam or is it just pouring completely dead? How long has been continually connected at this pressure?


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## joel_cabban (25/4/10)

henderjo said:


> Hey Joel,
> 
> Saga continues! Don't lose heart - thik you've got most of it right just need to balance your system.
> 
> ...



ok so i've done a bit of a test... at a 2 day stable 8psi at 1-2degC(55kpa) it takes 25 sec to pour a beer, and depending on the glass i use i get a pretty good head, which stays for probably 1/2 to 2/3 of the schooner, but it still tastes a little flat for my liking, especially towards the end (the beer is heating up and expelling i spose)... so i've tweaked the gas to about 9.5psi (65kpa) which is where the carb table says it should be, and will test again tomorrow arvo... any thoughts on this?

i just bought an andale flooded font for $100 off ebay, and was thinking of putting the brumby taps on it,

http://www.andale.com.au/productListing.as...s+and++Beer+Gun


if i was to go with the DA taps instead, could i then have a shorted beer line and just use the flow restricter on the tap to adjust the pour? can the restricter cause much turbulence in the beer?? or would i be better with the brumbys, and just play with the beer line lengths. (i guess i'm asking if its worth the extra $50 for them)

open to everyones opinions, as learning from my own mistakes is getting pretty over rated 

cheers :beer: 

View attachment andale_font.tiff


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## henderjo (26/4/10)

Hey Joel,

Congrats on pouring a decent beer! Sounds like you've overcome most of your issue. I also like, what some would consider to be too many bubbles in my beer. If you're now happy with your level of carbonation, I'd start trimming your beer line - say 200mm at a time - until you get to a pouring speed you're happy with. You will most likely end up with line around 2 - 2.5 m in length. Job done.

As for the new kit you're getting:
Font looks sweet. I know the taps with the restricters are supposed to get around the beer line length thing (without causing turbulence) - so yes you should then be able to have short lines. I can't comment any further though - no experience with those taps at all.


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