# First Stout - it's gone berserk!



## TWW (24/9/20)

Hi All, just came across this site after a couple of attempts brewing straight from a kit (a couple of Ales) with reasonable success (what could go wrong?).

I am now having a go at brewing a Stout with some extras and keen to get some advice/information on progress as it went berserk on day 1 in the fermenter (primary fermentation?), foaming all over the place!

I have used the following:
1 x can Morgan's premium dockside stout + yeast
1 x 1.5kg can Morgan's dark roasted Malt (liquid/syrup)
500g dark malt (powdered)
1 x 50g chocolate essence/additive

I basically followed the instructions on the can, with the addition of the extra 500g powdered malt & the chocolate (Hoping to create some more depth of flavour). SG was at 1.048...

I put the yeast in @ approx 28 degrees, gave it a quick stir(?) and sealed it up. The next morning I had what resembled a primary school 'make your own volcanic eruption' science experiment in the garage with foam covering the top of the fermenter and continuing to spew out of the hydro/air lock. After a bit of a clean up it is now just quietly, and very slowly bubbling along at between 24/26 degrees. I am hoping that the initial foam party hasn't affected the brewing process or the yeast (quantity/activity)?

Interested in your thoughts/advice - anything I should/could consider doing? Or just leave it be and wait and see?

Thanks in advance...


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## GrumpyPaul (24/9/20)

Just leave it and wait and see. What you have is just a very active ferment.

I would suggest that 28 degrees is not ideal - it's too warm. Despite the fact that a lot of kits give instructions to ferment high, your yeast will be happier at around 20. If you have some way you control temp I would try keep the temp lower.

The high temp is also probably the reason fermentation kicked of so quickly and vigorously too.

Your SG seems a bit low for that recipe - I reckon it should be about 1.070 (assuming 23litres)

At the end of the day you are going to make bit.


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## kadmium (24/9/20)

Agreed with grumpy. Also, one thing to consider is to install a 'blow off' for the first few days, to avoid your paper mache volcano!

Essentially, get an airlock (I find the 2 piece airlocks work well) and just stick a piece of tubing like you would for transferring your beer (pvc tubing is fine) and run that into a bucket with sanitiser in it. Then keep the end of the tube under the liquid level. If fermentation gets too crazy, it will travel up the tube and into the bucket.

I wouldn't imagine that you have infected your brew or anything to stress about, but Grumpy is right that 28 can probably leave the yeast a bit hot and stressed, which can lead to a 'hot' alcohol taste (Fusel alcohol) which gives that almost cheap vodka burn / taste. The best way to control that is to monitor your temps and keep the yeast cooler.

Good luck and let us know how you go!


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## Grmblz (24/9/20)

Pretty much what Grumpy/Kadmium said ^. Except 28 is HOT imho, you're getting close to Kveik temp's, 20 ish is where you want to be, gumtree fridge $50-$100 Inkbird temp controller (or similar) $40, job sorted.
Stouts at the strongish end do have a tendency to explode, as Kadmium suggests a blow off tube is a cheap easy fix.
fwiw my quick calc puts your OG around 1055-1060, either way 1048 seems a bit light on (23L batch)


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## matt77 (24/9/20)

I was worried about this withmy stout.
I set ferment temperatire around 14°c just to slow it right down


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## Feldon (24/9/20)

When making a stout (toucan variety) I fill the fermenter up to only about 18L. That leaves enough extra headroom to contain the excessive foam. After the initial foaming has subsided a bit (day 2 or 3) I top up gently with cooled boiled water to the make up to 23L.
Got the tip from the Coopers website. Works a treat.


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## Grmblz (24/9/20)

matt77 said:


> I was worried about this withmy stout.
> I set ferment temperatire around 14°c just to slow it right down


Be careful Matt, 14 is really at the bottom end, you don't want it to stall, should be ok (yeast strain dependant) but I wouldn't go any lower, and consider going to 18 after it slows down a bit.


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## philrob (24/9/20)

28 is not too hot, in fact, the yeast will love it, as evidenced by the volcanic fermentation.

But....it is not the happiest temperature for making good beer. As others have already said, 18 to20º is better for ales (lagers are a different beast).

I generally start mine off at 18ºC for the first couple of days, then let it free rise to 20ºC. Max time in the fermenter for me is 2 weeks tops.


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## TWW (24/9/20)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Just leave it and wait and see. What you have is just a very active ferment.
> 
> I would suggest that 28 degrees is not ideal - it's too warm. Despite the fact that a lot of kits give instructions to ferment high, your yeast will be happier at around 20. If you have some way you control temp I would try keep the temp lower.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Grumpy. Really appreciate the response.


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## TWW (24/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Agreed with grumpy. Also, one thing to consider is to install a 'blow off' for the first few days, to avoid your paper mache volcano!
> 
> Essentially, get an airlock (I find the 2 piece airlocks work well) and just stick a piece of tubing like you would for transferring your beer (pvc tubing is fine) and run that into a bucket with sanitiser in it. Then keep the end of the tube under the liquid level. If fermentation gets too crazy, it will travel up the tube and into the bucket.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip Kadmium. Will tee that up for the next attempt!


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## TWW (24/9/20)

Grmblz said:


> Pretty much what Grumpy/Kadmium said ^. Except 28 is HOT imho, you're getting close to Kveik temp's, 20 ish is where you want to be, gumtree fridge $50-$100 Inkbird temp controller (or similar) $40, job sorted.
> Stouts at the strongish end do have a tendency to explode, as Kadmium suggests a blow off tube is a cheap easy fix.
> fwiw my quick calc puts your OG around 1055-1060, either way 1048 seems a bit light on (23L batch)


Thanks. I took the SG ready pre pitching the yeast. I should probably calibrate my hydrometer again too. Good tips on the fridge set up too! I am in SEQ and she's warming up so some way to regulate temperature other than relying on the ambient temp of the garage is a wise call.


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## TWW (24/9/20)

philrob said:


> 28 is not too hot, in fact, the yeast will love it, as evidenced by the volcanic fermentation.
> 
> But....it is not the happiest temperature for making good beer. As others have already said, 18 to20º is better for ales (lagers are a different beast).
> 
> I generally start mine off at 18ºC for the first couple of days, then let it free rise to 20ºC. Max time in the fermenter for me is 2 weeks tops.


Thanks Philrob. Hoping the temp drops further over the next day or so.


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## philrob (24/9/20)

You can wrap a damp towel around the fermenter. It will help to cool it down a bit.


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## kadmium (24/9/20)

Yep and if you have a fan you can steal it from the missus and use it to cool your true love. Fan over damp towel works well!


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## Grmblz (24/9/20)

philrob said:


> 28 is not too hot, in fact, the yeast will love it, as evidenced by the volcanic fermentation.



Sorry Phil but you're wrong, the whole pressure fermenting thing is so you can ferment at higher temp's and not produce nasties.

The nasties I refer to are what gives homebrew a bad rap, I've said it before on this forum, we are not here to produce "homebrew" we are trying to produce craft beers (ales and or lagers) if you want "homebrew" just chuck a can and a kilo into a bucket and ferment it in the garage during summer.

"_A maximum of 32 degrees is listed as the upper limit in one well known brewing kit! The yeast will have no difficulty working at these temperatures. In fact it will flourish, fermenting out the beer in rapid-fire time_." RINGS A BELL?

_"Unfortunately, the object of brewing beer is not to ferment out the beer as fast as you can, but to produce beer as good as you possibly can with the equipment and ingredients you have at hand, and to do this you must ferment at lower temperatures"_ I rest my case.

Here's the complete article Brewing In Summer - How To Beat The Heat! - Aussie Brewer - Craft Brewing Supplies may I humbly suggest that anyone that thinks 28 deg's is ok to ferment at, has a read of it, unless you're using Kveik, in which case you're too cold, turn it up to 35, but that's a different discussion.


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## Grmblz (24/9/20)

For anyone wanting something a bit more scientific.

*fermentation temperature*: Higher temperatures accelerate the yeast's metabolism and the yeast will be able to consume the sugars faster and generally more complete. But the production of unwanted flavor compounds at higher temperatures limits the fermentation temperature. With good yeast health and sufficient pitching rate the fermentation temperature can be kept fairly low while still ensuring sufficient attenuation. A temperature rise towards the end of fermentation can be beneficial to attenuation while avoiding the off-flavors that higher fermentation temperature early in the fermentation can create.
Courtesy of http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Attenuation


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## philrob (24/9/20)

The point of my reply was that 28 is too hot to produce good beer, but good for keeping yeast happy. Again, not to make the best beer.
I'm not talking about kveik or pressure fermenting, which seem to be recent adaptations. I don't use either of these.


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## kadmium (24/9/20)

Kveik has been around longer than most beer styles so it's not new. It's just a new fad (pedantic I know)

And I would argue that yeast aren't happy at 28c, they are stressed and in a feeding frenzy. That's why they produce fusel alcohols and other undesirable off flavours. 

Yeast that can reproduce, eat and clean up after themselves are happiest (I admit though I've never asked one)

Thats why the fermentation range is specific to the yeast strain. Some prefer cooler, but too cool and they sleep. Too warm and they enter into a frenzy, and as a by-product of stress improperly metabolise the sugars creating by-products which do not taste good.

It's also dangerous to say "yeast are happy at 28" without quantifying it with the preceeding information, as a new brewer may take that as they should ferment hot. Just my thoughts.


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## Outback (25/9/20)

I disagree with Grimblz, and agree totally with Philrob.
Yeast love higher temps, it just makes for not very nice beer flavours. 
Lager yeast don't enjoy being kept so freaking cold, they just manage to keep chipping away, but it's why we have to pitch more of the little wonder makers.


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## GrumpyPaul (25/9/20)

Its funny how much disagreement we can have to say the same thing.....

What I hear everyone saying is....

Under traditional fermentation conditions (ie not pressure fermenting) high temps will produce flavours in the beer we don't want.

The funny thing, to me, is that most of the disagreements above are about the "feelings" of the yeast - whether it's "happy" or "stressed". 

I might be heartless....but I don't care about the feelings of my yeast. I just want to make good beer so that means have a temp that gets the best out of the yeast.


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## mje1980 (25/9/20)

Grmblz said:


> Sorry Phil but you're wrong, the whole pressure fermenting thing is so you can ferment at higher temp's and not produce nasties.
> 
> The nasties I refer to are what gives homebrew a bad rap, I've said it before on this forum, we are not here to produce "homebrew" we are trying to produce craft beers (ales and or lagers) if you want "homebrew" just chuck a can and a kilo into a bucket and ferment it in the garage during summer.
> 
> ...


Did you read his whole reply?


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## mje1980 (25/9/20)

philrob said:


> The point of my reply was that 28 is too hot to produce good beer, but good for keeping yeast happy. Again, not to make the best beer.
> I'm not talking about kveik or pressure fermenting, which seem to be recent adaptations. I don't use either of these.


I thought you made that point quite clearly. Clearly enough to not need any further explanation.


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## Grmblz (25/9/20)

mje1980 said:


> Did you read his whole reply?



I did, and "28 is not too hot, in fact, the yeast will love it" in this context is just plain wrong, we're not talking about keeping yeast happy, we're talking about how to make good beer.
The rest of his post is sound advice, however a new brewer reading that post could come away with the idea that whilst 28 wasn't ideal it was still ok,
and OP (TWW) is a new brewer.
I assume OP has looked at the articles I linked to and is now much wiser. The first article is especially relevant to new brewers as it keeps the whole temperature thing simple, and the second one was intended for experienced brewers that may have dismissed the first as just one persons opinion, although I doubt an experienced brewer would disagree with the first article.
Cheers G


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## mje1980 (25/9/20)

Context is pretty clear in the second paragraph if you read it.


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## Outback (25/9/20)

so, explain then, why was there a volcanic like eruption? I would have thought it self evident that the yeast went bat shit crazy, just luvvin the balmy temp. A vey simple statement was made. It stands as fact on its own merits, an nd doesn't need or want qualification. To say it is wrong, and then defend it is ignorant.


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## philrob (25/9/20)

We've probably discussed the temperature enough. Let's leave personal back and forth alone from here, please.


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## Grmblz (25/9/20)

philrob said:


> We've probably discussed the temperature enough. Let's leave personal back and forth alone from here, please.


Well said, common sense at last.


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## Grmblz (25/9/20)

philrob said:


> We've probably discussed the temperature enough. Let's leave personal back and forth alone from here, please.


Nowhere else to post this Phil, how come we can't send you a PM? I would like to ask a question of both you and Grumpy, nothing to do with this thread, and there is no option to pm you???


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## philrob (25/9/20)

There should be. You could always report your post and send us a message that way. We'll each see it.


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## Grmblz (25/9/20)

Nope, gift and follow but no "start a conversation" and it's not a post it's an alert (no way to report that short of hacking the site), given the political nature of it I'd rather not have the conversation in the public domain, maybe pm me a ? and I can respond?


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## philrob (25/9/20)

Message sent.


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## peterlonz (26/9/20)

Summer ferment in Queensland without any practical temp control:
Two can stout.
Crazy ferment within a few hours, checked temp - around 28 maybe higher.
Foam everywhere, airlock acting like a safety valve, not a good look for a long time brewer, (what was I thinking)?
Bottles of frozen water packed around all in laundry tub, never really gained control but the whole ferment was "quick".
To my surprise the final stout was OK no worse than a temp controlled or winter brew.
I now use a purpose made insulation jacket (from LHBS) & I've learned roughly how many 3 litre frozen water bottles to use, have to replace about every 12 hours but reasonable control has become possible even in summer.
I post for new brewers to consider, the old hands - well LOL


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## matt77 (26/9/20)

Grmblz said:


> Be careful Matt, 14 is really at the bottom end, you don't want it to stall, should be ok (yeast strain dependant) but I wouldn't go any lower, and consider going to 18 after it slows down a bit.


I have i did.
Funny comment based on not knowing what yeast i was using.
And i aim for 17°c at start for most ferments
But yeah if it still got 3 inches of foamy krausen i think it was fermenting fine


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## Grmblz (26/9/20)

matt77 said:


> I have i did.
> Funny comment based on not knowing what yeast i was using.
> And i aim for 17°c at start for most ferments
> But yeah if it still got 3 inches of foamy krausen i think it was fermenting fine


I was just assuming you were using an ale yeast rather than lager, and I've had ale yeasts go to sleep at 14, glad it's worked out ok.


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## butisitart (26/9/20)

matt77 said:


> I have i did.
> Funny comment based on not knowing what yeast i was using.
> And i aim for 17°c at start for most ferments
> But yeah if it still got 3 inches of foamy krausen i think it was fermenting fine


i'd go with grmblz. if you're going to make a generic statement about slowing a yeast down by heading to 14 degrees, then you'd generically be using an ale yeast, regardless of strain. if you're aiming at 17 degrees, then no contest.
so on that basis, doesn't matter what brand of yeast you're using. 
14 degrees for an ale is at about the bottom end, so it's not a funny comment
if it was a lager, you'd have said (or should have said) 2 degrees, and only then would 14 degrees be funny


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## GregTheBrewer (27/9/20)

Just as an aside TWW, as with any biological system and enzymes, acitivity increases with temperature, but as many have pointed out, there are undesirable side effects from too much temp when it comes to brewing. This is why the yeast manufacturers have recommended ranges for their yeasts on the packet or website. My advice would be to keep an eye out for a cheap chest freezer on Gumtree or Facebook marketplace, and get an STC-1000 based temperature controller. You can wire them up yourself if you have the skills and knowledge (a MUST!) or buy a pre-made one like Kegland sell. Then put your heat belt on the fermenter, wack it in the freezer and connect everything! Because you are not running the freezer down to its normal temps, it has a very easy time of it and won't use much power. Most people put a temp probe on the side of the fermenter using Blutac or similar, but if you want to get really fancy, drill an extra hole in the fermenter lid, and put a sanitised thermowell into the beer with the temp probe inside it. That way you get a very accurate readout of the beer temp. And don't worry about uneven temps...warming and cooling, convective currents form and circulate within the beer so it evens itself out. At the end of the fermentation, you can even use it to cold crash to clarify before bottling! Such a setup makes brewing lagers a breeze as well, as you can easily control it for your diacetyl rest later in the ferment. I have been doing this sort of thing down here in the Leper Colony (ruled by Chairman Dan) for years, and have had great results. Good luck with your brewing, and I am very envious of all of you north of Sicktoria!!!


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## Grmblz (27/9/20)

Remember the disbelief, and general outrage when the news showed people in China being locked up in their blocks of flats, seems insignificant now. We feel for you Greg, and that old political cop-out of "I don't recall" is just not good enough.

Just a quick observation on GTBs' recommendations, lifting a full fermenter in and out of a chest freezer can be a challenge for some, a fridge may be a better option.

Fridge pros: generally uses less floor space, can easily view the fermentation (PET fermenters) easier to move fermenter in and out, easier to clean when things go wrong.

Chest freezer pros: much better insulation so uses less power, and whilst they are a bit harder to clean they will contain (if the drain hole is plugged) any spillage, the fridge may be easier to clean but when the inevitable happens you will be mopping the floor as well.

A good compromise is an upright freezer, best of both worlds, except the spillage control, just make sure the cooling elements aren't part of the shelves.


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## peterlonz (27/9/20)

GregTheBrewer said:


> Just as an aside TWW, as with any biological system and enzymes, acitivity increases with temperature, but as many have pointed out, there are undesirable side effects from too much temp when it comes to brewing. This is why the yeast manufacturers have recommended ranges for their yeasts on the packet or website. My advice would be to keep an eye out for a cheap chest freezer on Gumtree or Facebook marketplace, and get an STC-1000 based temperature controller. You can wire them up yourself if you have the skills and knowledge (a MUST!) or buy a pre-made one like Kegland sell. Then put your heat belt on the fermenter, wack it in the freezer and connect everything! Because you are not running the freezer down to its normal temps, it has a very easy time of it and won't use much power. Most people put a temp probe on the side of the fermenter using Blutac or similar, but if you want to get really fancy, drill an extra hole in the fermenter lid, and put a sanitised thermowell into the beer with the temp probe inside it. That way you get a very accurate readout of the beer temp. And don't worry about uneven temps...warming and cooling, convective currents form and circulate within the beer so it evens itself out. At the end of the fermentation, you can even use it to cold crash to clarify before bottling! Such a setup makes brewing lagers a breeze as well, as you can easily control it for your diacetyl rest later in the ferment. I have been doing this sort of thing down here in the Leper Colony (ruled by Chairman Dan) for years, and have had great results. Good luck with your brewing, and I am very envious of all of you north of Sicktoria!!!


I have found the best way to record the actual temp in the fermenter is to use a digital readout thermometer with thermocouple probe on 1 metre flexible line. Purchase on Ebay dirt cheap 4 for AUS10 as I recall. Then simply use some quality aluminium tape (Also on Ebay - adhesive on one side) & tape on the thermo probe.
BTW I always check calibration against a good quality "spirit in glass" traditional thermometer. If calibration is out more than 1 degree don't use that one.


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## TWW (9/10/20)

Hi All, just checking back in on the thread after a couple of mental weeks of work (& life) getting in the way. Wow! Some passionate advice being given and I am grateful for all of it.
As I've already mentioned I may have got a bit ambitious with a Stout - albeit from a tin - with my very basic set up.

So, it's got down to an average of 22/24 degrees which by all accounts is a little warm. I am thinking I should be bottling this now (it's been in the fermenter for nearly 3 weeks) but the fermenter is still bubbling away at a calm, but consistent pace. Corrected OG was around the 1.052 mark pre-pitching the yeast. I have taken a reading now at 1.022. I am thinking it isn't ready for bottling yet given there is still fermentation activity....patience right?

Would be interested in some advice on a basic carbonation strategy for Stout when bottling. Some have alluded to maybe undercutting/excluding the carbonation sugars when bottling? 

Finally, with cold crashing is there a certain temperature to aim for, or is it as simple as getting it in a fridge and leaving it (overnight?). 

Really thankful for the advice and input again @Grmblz, @philrob, @GregTheBrewer, @peterlonz


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## kadmium (9/10/20)

Stout shouldn't have the same volume of carbonation as some other styles, but you do still want it carbonated to some degree. It will benefit from an extended bottle condition.

I would not bottle until you have reached a stable gravity for several days. 1.022 is a touch high, and I would expect it to drop some more. Once you reach FG and it's stable, THEN bottle. Otherwise you risk over carbonating and all the bad things that happen with that.

If it's been fermenting warm, aging will also help level out some of the Fusel Alcohols that may have been produced, but this is more of a months in the bottle type deal depending on how 'hot' it tastes.


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## TWW (9/10/20)

kadmium said:


> I would not bottle until you have reached a stable gravity for several days. 1.022 is a touch high, and I would expect it to drop some more. Once you reach FG and it's stable, THEN bottle. Otherwise you risk over carbonating and all the bad things that happen with that.
> 
> If it's been fermenting warm, aging will also help level out some of the Fusel Alcohols that may have been produced, but this is more of a months in the bottle type deal depending on how 'hot' it tastes.


Thanks @kadmium for the advice. Will be patient and try and use some of the tips to cool it down a touch. Any ideas what FG I'd need to look out for? Happy to be patient with this as I'll likely do a couple of pale ales for mid summer enjoyment.

Thanks again!


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## kadmium (9/10/20)

Hey, can't really say but a typical stout with typical yeast anywhere around 10.15 depending. 

There's a few factors which go into it like yeast strain and ingredients


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## Grmblz (9/10/20)

If bottling a fairly high gravity (ok it's not huge, but anyway) it might be worth considering bulk priming, and adding a bottling yeast, just an option, there's many ways to skin the cat.


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