# True Weizen vs Belgian yeasts for German phenolics



## Weizguy (17/10/16)

I started this topic in a post regarding the AABC, and mentioned a beer I tasted at the ANHC5. Time for a new thread, and some animated discussion.

At ANHC, Stan Hieronymus presented a talk, entitled Brewing with Wheat, with a strong focus on creating phenolics and wheat beer characters. He stated (pretty much) that the phenolics (4VG only) and esters (specifically, but not limited to iso-amyl acetate) from Belgian yeasts were produced at a higher level and more reproducible rate than true Weizen yeast, and could be used to produce true-tasting German wheat beer.

He seems to think that the phenolics from Belgian yeasts are the same as phenolics from German wheat yeast, and I was open to this, based on graphs and charts and actual experiments, and I was almost convinced, until the tasting...

IMHO, clearly the Ardennes-yeast fermented weizen that was presented at the ANHC was not of the right phenolic profile. I detected the phenols as plummy, rather than dry and bitter (as produced by Weizen yeast).

Has anyone entered a weizen brewed with a Belgian yeast in a BJCP competition, or judged one that clearly had the wrong yeast/phenol profile? What feedback was given? Could you tell there was a difference?

Any and all relevant feedback will be taken on board, but until then I feel there is a valid reason I choose to stick with a traditional style-specific yeast.

Stan, if you're out there, I haven't bought your book yet, but maybe soon...and please pounce on me if you feel the need to correct me. I did not make enough effort to confront you with my judgemental opinion at ANHC5, and seek relevant feedback, or provide food for thought, or a discuss/devise a set of structured experiments to confirm my proposition.

the Weizguy


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## TheWiggman (17/10/16)

I reckon there might be something in what you're saying Les, because I openly dislike wheat beers - or more specifically, I haven't had a wheat beer I've truly enjoyed - yet adore a quality Belgian (Le Guillotine, Leffe Radieuse, Delirium Tremens to name a few). The phenols are definietly different, and I get that dryness you refer to in a true wheat. To my tastes wheat beers taste 'plasticy'.
I have brewed an Abbey beer to 6.5% with 3942 Belgian Wheat, the said beer not containing a so much as a wheat husk. It was very enjoyable. I've also had a Tenich Dampfbier made with a Bavarian Weizen Yeast White Labs #WLP351 and loved it. Having had a wheat beer on the other hand brewed with US05, I didn't like it so much but it didn't have the normal what beer character you'd expect out of something like 3068. The phenols are evidently very yeast-driven, so I agree with where you're coming from.


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## kaiserben (17/10/16)

They're chalk and cheese IMO. 

But I'd be interested to hear more about why I'm wrong (or right). 

Admittedly I haven't made, or knowingly tasted, a weizen made with a Belgian strain. So I can only go off what I've tasted in other styles.


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## MartinOC (17/10/16)

Les, I'm with you here.

I wasn't at ANHC to witness the presentation, but it just doesn't make sense. Graphs & statistics can only tell one part of the story.

If I'm reading you right here, the converse of Stan's argument would be that you could make a great Belgian with a German Weizen yeast?? You really should've baled him up & put him on the spot during his presentation.

I've only read one of his books (Hops) & was ferociously unimpressed with the lack if detail & actual research. More like "How I managed to score an all-expenses-paid, tax-deductable junket to Europe under the guise of researching for a book". Most of the information in that book would've been available online & was a re-hash of the material in Mark Garetz's book from '94.

Unimpressed.


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## Reman (17/10/16)

I have done a Wit (hoegaarden clone) with 380, and it was pretty reasonable. But then 380 (hefe iv) when used to make a hefe, tasted a lot different to say 3638.

But then again I've had 380 produce a banana bomb and a spicy one....so....dunno


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## jyo (17/10/16)

Nick JD used to often comment that he thought a few Belgian strains produced better banana / bubblegum characteristics than weizen yeasts do.

Here's one example- http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/64632-wyeast-1214-bubblegumbanana/

I've never tried the Wy 1214. The description says suitable for witbiers, but no mention of the banana / bubblegum esters.


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## manticle (17/10/16)

Nick JD said a lot of things.
Belgian yeasts make Belgian beers.
Hefeweizen yeasts make hefe beers.


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## Weizguy (18/10/16)

MartinOC said:


> Les, I'm with you here.
> 
> I wasn't at ANHC to witness the presentation, but it just doesn't make sense. Graphs & statistics can only tell one part of the story.
> 
> ...


You don't always have the questions at the most appropriate time, but I'm happy to engage people here, and not sure how to contact Stan. I know that MHB is not so much a fan of Stan's easy-going, dismissive attitude in "Brewing with Wheat", but maybe that's not for me to say.
As for weizen yeast making a good Belgian, I feel that Stan would say no, due to the lower ester and phenol production, comparatively. I got the impression that he feels German tradition is the main factor for use of those yeasts and that it's becoming "stale".



jyo said:


> Nick JD used to often comment that he thought a few Belgian strains produced better banana / bubblegum characteristics than weizen yeasts do.
> 
> Here's one example- http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/64632-wyeast-1214-bubblegumbanana/
> 
> I've never tried the Wy 1214. The description says suitable for witbiers, but no mention of the banana / bubblegum esters.


"More" is not necessarily better.
There is surely a reason that the yeast propagators (manufacturers?) do not recommend the Belgian strains for weizenbier. In hindsight, again, I could have asked Chris White that question, obviously without appearing to get him to directly refute Stan's assertion, as I saw Chris about the place quite a bit more than Stan. Hmm, at least I know how to contact Chris White. Will report back here...


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## kaiserben (18/10/16)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I got the impression that he feels German tradition is the main factor for use of those yeasts and that it's becoming "stale".


So he thinks the style is in need of a bit of a shake up? 

We keep seeing commercially available hoppy weizens and other variations, but for a yeast-driven style I'm not sure throwing hops at it is the way to go. I'm sceptical that switching to Belgian yeasts is a good path to take either.

I had a revelation when I tasted the Roggenweizen made by Störtebeker. It has a spiciness to it that I actually enjoy (from the rye malt rather than from over-bearing phenols). For me it was completely refreshing take on the weizen style.


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## MartinOC (18/10/16)

kaiserben said:


> So he thinks the style is in need of a bit of a shake up?
> 
> We keep seeing commercially available hoppy weizens and other variations, but for a yeast-driven style I'm not sure throwing hops at it is the way to go. I'm sceptical that switching to Belgian yeasts is a good path to take either.


Like "most" (NOT ALL) Americans, they seem to think that their way is the best way (World Police  ). Everything needs to be changed to fit with their perceptions. In the case of beer, it means stuffing it full of too much hops & calling it a _new_ "Classic" style.

I remember when Coopers Sparkling Ale was considered a "passable" example of a "Classic" American style ('can't remember which, as they keep inventing new ones every year :wacko: ).


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/10/16)

I've just bottled a couple of days ago, a 50/50 Pale/Wheat beer bittered to about 20IBU on a Belgian Yeast (MJ M21). Given I've used WB06 in the past (not great) and 3638 (3068 was gone when I grabbed it) - which was pretty good in the banana stakes, I reckon this would make a fairly decent comparison.

From the taste out of the fermenter, I don't reckon it'll be very banana estery, and the phenols have more of a soft Belgian undertone (soft spice, rather than harsh spice that I've had in some other Belgian yeasts). It complements the wheat well but I wouldn't go near calling it a substitute. 

Weissbier yeasts are pretty much only okay in wet - a bit like a good bock yeast or a good saison yeast. Some styles dried yeast does well as a substitute (AIPA, some lowish ester British beers, a good lager that has been lagered), but not in the German wheat category. That being the case, the same should and could be said for using a Belgian as substitute for German.


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## Weizguy (19/10/16)

Les the Weizguy said:


> <snipped>
> There is surely a reason that the yeast propagators (manufacturers?) do not recommend the Belgian strains for weizenbier. In hindsight, again, I could have asked Chris White that question, obviously without appearing to get him to directly refute Stan's assertion, as I saw Chris about the place quite a bit more than Stan. Hmm, at least I know how to contact Chris White. Will report back here...


 I contacted White Labs and received the following reply about the plummy phenolics I tasted in the Belgian-fermented wheat beer, and the variety of phenols produced:

" The reason we don't typically use Belgian strains for hefeweizens is that there are more esters produced in some of those strains than just isoamyl acetate (banana). When you refer to "plum" you're speaking more about esters than about phenolics (spicy, clove). There are several types of phenols that are produced with both german and belgian strains, but it just depends in what proportion. This varies even between hefe and Belgian strains. 

Hope that helps! "


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## black_labb (19/10/16)

It's really about the flavour profile, not the inclusion of specific flavours (esters or phenols). You don't add a red curry paste to pulled pork because it happens to have some common flavours/spices. There are a lot of different flavours that come through from belgian yeasts that aren't appropriate for a typical weizen. That's not to say that it wouldn't be enjoyable.


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## Blind Dog (19/10/16)

personally, I think he's wrong both in implying German tradition is 'stale' and in suggesting you can use Belgian Yeats for Hefeweizen. Mind you, I've also read a comment he made about citra and nelson sauvin being interchangeable, so I'm not convinced he's actually worth listening to when it comes to brewing ingredients.

As for his wheat book, it's much like his hop book - good if you want a collection of stories, anecdotes and some historical context, but pretty much useless if you want to understand the how's and whys of brewing with wheat.


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## MartinOC (19/10/16)

Amen, brother. Not impressed.


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## manticle (19/10/16)

Brew like a monk was mostly good.
The Belgian bits anyway. Recreation of recipes in USA was less so.


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## MartinOC (19/10/16)

I can feel a pattern forming here....


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## Fourstar (19/10/16)

Throwing a spanner in the works...

Not that i was present at ANHC but while these Belgian yeasts may be producing the primary pehnols and esters that are appreciable in Weizens, what about all of the *minor* compounds that are being produced by the Belgian vs Weizen yeasts? Surely this is enough to throw the balance out of kilter between the strains. Not to mention their attenuation and other compounds which change the perception of mouthfeel and overall perception. e.g. diacetyl or glycerol.


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## moonhead (20/10/16)

What I took away from his talk wasn't so much that Belgian strains would be better at getting the wheat beer characteristics we all know, but instead these strains _can _throw off all these flavours in high amounts, which is undesirable in some styles of beer. Point being that you need to get the fermentation temp and conditions right when using these yeasts to avoid that situation.


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## n87 (17/11/16)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I've just bottled a couple of days ago, a 50/50 Pale/Wheat beer bittered to about 20IBU on a Belgian Yeast (MJ M21). Given I've used WB06 in the past (not great) and 3638 (3068 was gone when I grabbed it) - which was pretty good in the banana stakes, I reckon this would make a fairly decent comparison.
> 
> From the taste out of the fermenter, I don't reckon it'll be very banana estery, and the phenols have more of a soft Belgian undertone (soft spice, rather than harsh spice that I've had in some other Belgian yeasts). It complements the wheat well but I wouldn't go near calling it a substitute.
> 
> Weissbier yeasts are pretty much only okay in wet - a bit like a good bock yeast or a good saison yeast. Some styles dried yeast does well as a substitute (AIPA, some lowish ester British beers, a good lager that has been lagered), but not in the German wheat category. That being the case, the same should and could be said for using a Belgian as substitute for German.


Hey LRG,

somewhat off topic...
How did your M21 batch end up?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (17/11/16)

n87 said:


> Hey LRG,
> 
> somewhat off topic...
> How did your M21 batch end up?


Brilliant. It's the yeast I was looking for - for a Saison.

I've been struggling with dry Saison yeasts (Belle Saison and the MJ equiv) to get any tart or funk or farmhouse sort of flavours. Ran the things at 28 degrees - nada. Like an average tasting one dimensional Belgian (though at least the Danstar Belle Saison was good enough to give a mild amount of phenols).

Run M21 at 21 degrees, and I got a tart, interesting slightly funky beer, that tastes a little like a Belgian Kristall and a bit like a mildly bretty beer without the blue cheese being massive.

A bit like T58, if you find its sweet spot, it can really deliver on the day. The only problem is that I wanted an ambient temp yeast to give me what I need for a quick keg filler (my fermenting fridge only has room for one fermenter), and I got more Saison from the Belgian than the dry Saison yeasts gave me.


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## n87 (18/11/16)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Brilliant. It's the yeast I was looking for - for a Saison.
> 
> I've been struggling with dry Saison yeasts (Belle Saison and the MJ equiv) to get any tart or funk or farmhouse sort of flavours. Ran the things at 28 degrees - nada. Like an average tasting one dimensional Belgian (though at least the Danstar Belle Saison was good enough to give a mild amount of phenols).
> 
> ...


Thanks, I guess that means not that crash hot for a hefe or wit?

regarding Belle Saison, me and co-brewer did a split batch, each fermenting 25L with Belle.
He did it at ~18 and got much more fruit than mine, which ended up a sort of spicy clean at ~22.
I havent used it again yet for a saison (the Biere de Garde is lagering, and is tasting great), but if i did, i would do it at a lower temp.
My current saison, done with WLP566, is beginning to taste like a peach/citrus sherbet after nearly a month in the keg (keep in mind i had a smoked doublebock beforehand).
When it was first keged, there was a little spice, but not much in the fruit dept. Im guessing there is something funky in there slowly chewing away... I might have to check one of the bottles to make sure they dont blow up


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## hirschb (18/11/16)

If you want tart, you need to use lacto, pedio, or particular brett strains (that sometimes give off acid in the right conditions). If you want funk or farmhouse, you need to use brett. The only Sacch that I've tried with some decent farmhouse character is TYB Wallonian farmhouse. Weird yeast, but it can have nice results depending on various factors. Belle Saison isn't a bad saison yeast, but it has far less character than most saison strains.


Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I've been struggling with dry Saison yeasts (Belle Saison and the MJ equiv) to get any tart or funk or farmhouse sort of flavours. Ran the things at 28 degrees - nada. Like an average tasting one dimensional Belgian (though at least the Danstar Belle Saison was good enough to give a mild amount of phenols).


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