# Cold Crashing Temperature-too High?



## Truman42 (11/1/13)

I normally cold crash my beer at around 1-2C in the fermenter for 5-7 days before bottling.

However I now have to use my fermenting fridge which is a small bar fridge and with the hot summer weather it struggles to get my beer down any lower than about 5-7 C especially on hot days. It might drop to 4 overnight but is back up to around 6-7 at the end of another hot summer scorcher like today where it gets very hot in the garage. (Why do these tight arse spec home builders not insulate the garage ceiling when they do the rest of the roof space)

So question is will this simply require more time at these temps for the yeast to drop out, or will the yeast NOT drop out above a certain temperature?

FYI- I tape my probe to the fermenter and have it covered with foam and its a 25 litre batch.


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## doon (11/1/13)

Chuck some gelatin in


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

The yeast will still floc out, but you will need to leave it about 3 days at those temps for it to finish. 

I would also look at another fridge long term. If the fridge is warming up over the day and it's running 100% of the time, it's sucking on the power like a 16 year old chick sucking on a .....  

The other thing you could look at is trying to insulate it better. Does it have external cooling fins at the back, if so cover the sides and top with insulation. Also is it getting hit with direct sun, if so that will heat them up pretty fast. At certain times of the year if I haven't drawn the blinds, my keg king kegerator in the house gets hit the morning sun for an hour and jumps a couple of degrees as it can't keep up with the cooling. 

QldKev


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

QldKev said:


> The yeast will still floc out, but you will need to leave it about 3 days at those temps for it to finish.
> 
> I would also look at another fridge long term. If the fridge is warming up over the day and it's running 100% of the time, it's sucking on the power like a 16 year old chick sucking on a .....
> 
> ...



Kev, Its in the garage so does not get direct sunlight and yes it has external cooling fins. But I thought if I cover them up it wouldn't allow the heat to escape from them. I was thinking about sitting a small fan on top of the fridge facing the back wall so the air deflects down onto the fins. 

@Doon...Good idea I didnt even consider that as I thought you still had to get it down in temp to around 2C for the gelatin to work effectively.


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

I can see what you though with my wording... Don't cover the cooling fins, cover the top and sides of the fridge itself with insulation. 

Be careful adding fans etc. A rough rules is if you are going to leave an appliance running all the time multiply the watts by 2 and add 10% to get $. So a small 40w fan will cost you $88 a year to run. But I guess you could get a timer so it's only on for the hottest 8 hours of the day, so then a third of 88 is only $30 a year. 

Also if the fridge is pushed back close to the wall, drag it forward a bit to allow extra air behind it, and if possible allow some air space on the sides for circulation. 

Gelatine is a great idea if you don't reuse the yeast.


QldKev


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

QldKev said:


> Don't cover the cooling fins, cover the top and sides of the fridge itself with insulation.
> 
> 
> Gelatine is good if you don't reuse the yeast.



Oh my bad, Im with you now.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/13)

Truman said:


> (Why do these tight arse spec home builders not insulate the garage ceiling when they do the rest of the roof space)



:icon_offtopic: Really? I would have thought that the new sustainability guidelines would make it manditory for full insulation. If they're cutting costs there, I be pretty concerned what other "savings" have they made like; low grade timber, cheap tiles and glue, 2 coat paint system, cheap electrical and cheap door furniture.

back on topic, get an old freezer with an stc, that little frdge will be costing you heaps to run.

Cheers


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## JDW81 (11/1/13)

bradsbrew said:


> :icon_offtopic: Really? I would have thought that the new sustainability guidelines would make it manditory for full insulation. If they're cutting costs there, I be pretty concerned what other "savings" have they made like; low grade timber, cheap tiles and glue, 2 coat paint system, cheap electrical and cheap door furniture.


 :icon_offtopic: 

Just because it is mandatory doesn't mean they do it. I live in a brand new rental (not for much longer, just signed the contract on my first place) and there is bugger all stuff which has been done to code, mind you the building code in victoria is pretty slack. Plenty of cheap fittings and tiles too.


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

bradsbrew said:


> :icon_offtopic: Really? I would have thought that the new sustainability guidelines would make it manditory for full insulation. If they're cutting costs there, I be pretty concerned what other "savings" have they made like; low grade timber, cheap tiles and glue, 2 coat paint system, cheap electrical and cheap door furniture.
> 
> back on topic, get an old freezer with an stc, that little frdge will be costing you heaps to run.
> 
> Cheers



Im not 100% sure but it gets very hot in there so I dont think it has insulation. The fridge works fine normally and hardly runs. Yesterday and last night it held at 20C for 3 hours before switching on. Its only when its hot.


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

bradsbrew said:


> :icon_offtopic: Really? I would have thought that the new sustainability guidelines would make it manditory for full insulation. If they're cutting costs there, I be pretty concerned what other "savings" have they made like; low grade timber, cheap tiles and glue, 2 coat paint system, cheap electrical and cheap door furniture.
> 
> back on topic, get an old freezer with an stc, that little frdge will be costing you heaps to run.
> 
> Cheers



Every saving you can imagine, is in place.

Cheap paint, they spray painted the internal walls here!
Low grade timer, they used metal beams and trusses on this place
Hows this, they have plumbed my bath tub in the same size pipes and drain plug as they use in bathroom sinks to save another couple of dollars. 
Even the string to hold the float in the water tank was too short to be effective, it started refilling the tank from the mains at about 90% capacity. 5c worth of string saved!

Our carport is insulated, but it is often warmer than the rest of the house?


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

OT But this house has a water tank but its not connected up to the toilets. It only has two taps at the front and rear of the property. I thought it was mandatory that the water tank be connected to the toilets? Its good for running through my chiller though.

Also it has a hot water solar panel on the roof and a gas hot water unit and a hot water boost switch in the meter box. So I have no idea what its actually using? Does the gas hot water unit only run as a back up? If so what the hell is the boost switch in the meter box for? I always though that if you have solar heating then you can only have electric boost?


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## stux (11/1/13)

Truman said:


> OT But this house has a water tank but its not connected up to the toilets. It only has two taps at the front and rear of the property. I thought it was mandatory that the water tank be connected to the toilets? Its good for running through my chiller though.
> 
> Also it has a hot water solar panel on the roof and a gas hot water unit and a hot water boost switch in the meter box. So I have no idea what its actually using? Does the gas hot water unit only run as a back up? If so what the hell is the boost switch in the meter box for? I always though that if you have solar heating then you can only have electric boost?



I have instanaeous gas boost on my SHW system. 

So split system, where roof panels heat a 400L SS tank on the ground via recirculation pump (think little brown pump), which has a rinai infinity (solar edition) mounted on it. It heats the water up to 65C as you draw from the tank (if necessary) and then the tempering valve cools it back to 55C

A fridge which can't get below 7C isn't a fridge anymore 

My ferment fridges will get to zero C (even the really old ones)


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## Bribie G (11/1/13)

Back on topic, for less than $500 you can get a KegMate / Tomahawk style fridge which is purpose built for beer. Further insulate the door inside with real estate sign corflute. You can run it down to -1. When not used for CC it makes a brilliant fermenter coupled with a Fridgemate. Or if you want to just use the single fermenter, start it off on the Fridgemate then when it's time to crash, run the fridge "native" mode.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/13)

QldKev said:


> Every saving you can imagine, is in place.
> 
> Cheap paint, they spray painted the internal walls here!
> Low grade timer, they used metal beams and trusses on this place
> ...


Nothing wrong with spraying internals Kev, as long as they know how to use an airless properly. You would be suprised how many dont use it properly though, alot set it to one pressure ( full ) and use one tip, then wonder why they get covered in overspray. Another thing they do is thin there paint with the belief they are saving but all it does is atomise the paint more than is needed and creates overspray that wastes more paint than they have saved. Airless paint systems work well but you MUST backroll your sealer to hide the definition of plaster to paper and use at least a 3 coat system. Also vary the tips and pressure to the area and paint catergory used. I am slowly getting the message across to the guys in your area  . Once shown how to do it properly 60% change. Geez feel like I am back at work.

Sorry for the OT truman but hopefully you already have your answer.

Cheers


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

Don't ask me about solar hot water. :angry: This place has solar hot water panels on the roof, and a hot water tank on the ground next to it. The tank has a 240v cord going to an outdoor socket, and it's never been switched on, I assume this would be an electric booster?. The fuse box has a circuit breaker marked with HWS. After anyone has a shower the system starts to draw 3150watts from the grid, even in Queensland summers. But if I switch the circuit breaker off in the fuse box, we have cold water 2 days later. 

QldKev


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## stux (11/1/13)

QldKev said:


> Don't ask me about solar hot water. :angry: This place has solar hot water panels on the roof, and a hot water tank on the ground next to it. The tank has a 240v cord going to an outdoor socket, and it's never been switched on, I assume this would be an electric booster?. The fuse box has a circuit breaker marked with HWS. After anyone has a shower the system starts to draw 3150watts from the grid, even in Queensland summers. But if I switch the circuit breaker off in the fuse box, we have cold water 2 days later.
> 
> QldKev



The 240v cord could be for the solar controller/recirculation pump. On my system it's a little box attached to the tank with sensor wires running to the roof and tank. Basically a giant solar HERMS 

An electric booster normally wouldn't be just 10A would it?


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

Stux said:


> The 240v cord could be for the solar controller/recirculation pump. On my system it's a little box attached to the tank with sensor wires running to the roof and tank. Basically a giant solar HERMS
> 
> An electric booster normally wouldn't be just 10A would it?



After 14months or so since moving in, and after reading your post and thinking yep time to do it, I've finally pulled the cover of the side where the cables go. 

Sure enough a hot logic controller. I've been running without my HERMS 



You would think the builders/plumber would leave it active?


Now to google why the status light is red. 

Thanks for the motivation to check. 

QldKev


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

Stux said:


> The 240v cord could be for the solar controller/recirculation pump. On my system it's a little box attached to the tank with sensor wires running to the roof and tank. Basically a giant solar HERMS
> 
> An electric booster normally wouldn't be just 10A would it?



Thats what mine has a control box on the side plugged into 240v socket. The other day I could hear the gas on and I switched this off to plug the water tank pump in (Only one socket for this and the water pump) and I heard the flame go out?

So does the solar provide hot water into the tank and the gas is only used if its not warm enough? Ive also noticed you cant turn the water temp down at all as the dial has been riveted on at its hottest setting.


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## Bribie G (11/1/13)

What's a good method of fixing chipped floor tiles, you know the little chip that you get when you drop a meat hammer or a pot or something - not a crack but just where it takes a chip off exposing the dark ceramic body of the tile?
I can easily mix up the correct colour artists oil paint and dummy them up but I was wondering if companies like Uptiles or Beaumont sell repair kits?


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

Us off topic never :lol:

but it was Truman's thread and he directed us here, so I assume all good


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## Sam England (11/1/13)

Back on topic for a second.

Truman, if you want to try your fan theory, use a double adaptor in your temp controller and that way it's only on when your fridge is running and needing to dissipate heat. This assumes it's not hard wired though.

Cheers,
BB


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## Bribie G (11/1/13)

I bet he's got a few chipped tiles as well so may well benefit from any hints or suggestions.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> What's a good method of fixing chipped floor tiles, you know the little chip that you get when you drop a meat hammer or a pot or something - not a crack but just where it takes a chip off exposing the dark ceramic body of the tile?
> I can easily mix up the correct colour artists oil paint and dummy them up but I was wondering if companies like Uptiles or Beaumont sell repair kits?



1. If you have a tile of similar colour you could tap the edge to get a chip then use the dremel to shape that chip to size then super glue it on.

2. Mix a bit of resin and fill the chip then paint.

3. Or most commonly done touch up with a felt pen.

Hope this helps with your dilema.


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

Blue Baggers said:


> Back on topic for a second.
> 
> Truman, if you want to try your fan theory, use a double adaptor in your temp controller and that way it's only on when your fridge is running and needing to dissipate heat. This assumes it's not hard wired though.
> 
> ...



Good idea I will give that a try.

@bribieG Maybe I should have tilted this thread Home handyman tips 1. My fridge isnt running cold enough in the garage. HELP.. LOl

And yes i do have some chipped tiles...


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## Bribie G (11/1/13)

All purpose thread, then. Anyone looking for a good curry recipe? :lol:

Brad, they are just those annoying little chips so I'll do the fill and paint method. What's a good resin to use for small jobs like that? Araldite from the supermarket be ok or is that just for sticking things together?


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## stux (11/1/13)

Truman said:


> Thats what mine has a control box on the side plugged into 240v socket. The other day I could hear the gas on and I switched this off to plug the water tank pump in (Only one socket for this and the water pump) and I heard the flame go out?
> 
> So does the solar provide hot water into the tank and the gas is only used if its not warm enough? Ive also noticed you cant turn the water temp down at all as the dial has been riveted on at its hottest setting.



I'm not solar HW plumber, but I did do a little research into it when we had ours installed.

My system has two plugs, one to the gas booster, and one to the controller.

The controller is responsible for sending hot water to the roof when the roof is hot and the water at the top of the tank is less than 85C. Once the water at the top of the tank gets to 85C, they assume the whole tank is hot.

...

Then the water is drawn through an entirely separate system which is the gas boost, whch has its own powersupply. The power is just to run the electronics and electronic ignition, fan etc.

There is a pipe between the tank and the inlet to the gas boost, and generally this will have cooled to below 65C, so the gas will almost always turn on for a second or two, but will turn off or dial back, depending on how hot the tank water is.

Most inifnity systems can be dialed to a temp by a remote controller, but the solar ones are fixed to 65C. I suspect this is to combat legionaires or something like that 

And then, dumb regulations mean the whole shebang gets plumbed past a tempering valve which I managed to turn up from 48C to 55C. That basically dilutes the hotwater with cold water.


similar to this, older model, all stainless tank, and 400L

http://www.rinnai.com.au/index.php?option=...id=2&id=161


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## stux (11/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> All purpose thread, then. Anyone looking for a good curry recipe? :lol:
> 
> Brad, they are just those annoying little chips so I'll do the fill and paint method. What's a good resin to use for small jobs like that? Araldite from the supermarket be ok or is that just for sticking things together?



liquid paper?

araldite is nice. You can sand it back a bit if you make it lumpy 

gotta make sure you get the good stuff, and not the 5 or 15 minute crap from kmart


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## Truman42 (11/1/13)

Thanks Stux that explains it then.

Im still waiting for an answer to this question if anyone knows.



> OT But this house has a water tank but its not connected up to the toilets. It only has two taps at the front and rear of the property. I thought it was mandatory that the water tank be connected to the toilets?


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## stux (11/1/13)

I'd actually like to one day figure out how to cut the power to the gas boost when the tank water is 85C to prevent it cycling on/off for no reason 

STC?


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## stux (11/1/13)

Truman said:


> Thanks Stux that explains it then.
> 
> Im still waiting for an answer to this question if anyone knows.
> 
> ...



Be good for running a vege garden.


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

Truman said:


> Thanks Stux that explains it then.
> 
> Im still waiting for an answer to this question if anyone knows.




Not sure about down there, but up here there was a period where all new houses just had to have a rainwater tank for garden use. It was a year or two later that they said it had to be plumbed in for toilets and washing machine use. 

QldKev


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## QldKev (11/1/13)

A good tip I learnt from the neighbor back when I was in town (he was a renta, renta = new word) when moving out soap rubbed on scratches in the walls hide them very well. You may need to buy a couple of cakes of soap to get the color correct, but they are only a dollar each.


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## Nick JD (11/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> Anyone looking for a good curry recipe? :lol:



I use green and yellow split peas, whole green lentils, red lentils and moong dhal (mungbean) in equal proportions in my Dhal.


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## pk.sax (11/1/13)

I find cornice cement makes a wonderful material to fill gaps, sand and paint on.

Also bloody good for fixing toilet roll holders etc to walls, filling up holes in walls, fixing hooks into concrete. That stuff is tough and cheap.


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## KingKong (11/1/13)

Does your bar fridge have a small freezer in the top of it ???

If it does and you haven't already had to bend it down against the back wall to fit a fermentor inside you could try this? Or try taking the door off the freezer??

You can see it demonstrated early on in  . Although you could probably do a better job than that.


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## tlbeer (11/1/13)

Stux said:


> liquid paper?
> 
> araldite is nice. You can sand it back a bit if you make it lumpy
> 
> gotta make sure you get the good stuff, and not the 5 or 15 minute crap from kmart




You can get porcelain repair in a syringe type tube similar to Araldite. It is made by Selleys I think, I have used it on porcelain electrical 
insulator repairs before so would probably work on a tile and just need to paint it once set etc.


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## seamad (11/1/13)

You can add a bit of talcum powder to araldite to thicken and colour it greyish/white, or some graphite powder from a pencil to blacken it ( and make bearing).


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## bum (12/1/13)

Truman said:


> @bribieG Maybe I should have tilted this thread Home handyman tips 1. My fridge isnt running cold enough in the garage. HELP.. LOl


Well, there's always next time.


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## yum beer (12/1/13)

Truman said:


> Thanks Stux that explains it then.
> 
> Im still waiting for an answer to this question if anyone knows.




Only if its a new house and yes it should connect to the toilet and laundry I believe, maybe diff in VIC.
we built in NSW 2 1/2 years ago, water is supposed to flow from the tank first (for entire house) then bring in town supply when the tank is empty.
When it was all hooked up, builder takes me to the tank/pump and says' flick this tap and that handle to get tank water, leave them as they are and town water flows stright through'. As soon as you turn on the tank you bypass town pressure and require the pump. Tank water is for beer, light styles like lagers, town supply works fine for most ales.


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## bum (12/1/13)

To meet the 6 Star requirements you can have either a solar water heater or a water tank hooked up to supply the toilet (amongst others but the point is that having the tank hooked up to the toilet is not compulsory).


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## stux (12/1/13)

yum beer said:


> Only if its a new house and yes it should connect to the toilet and laundry I believe, maybe diff in VIC.
> we built in NSW 2 1/2 years ago, water is supposed to flow from the tank first (for entire house) then bring in town supply when the tank is empty.
> When it was all hooked up, builder takes me to the tank/pump and says' flick this tap and that handle to get tank water, leave them as they are and town water flows stright through'. As soon as you turn on the tank you bypass town pressure and require the pump. Tank water is for beer, light styles like lagers, town supply works fine for most ales.



Around here people actually install water tanks on that setup so they can get decent pressure. Tap pressure is sub 100kpa


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## ash2 (2/8/13)

Boys & Girls with my fridge & trying to CC a brew it only gets down to 4.5c ,do you foresee any probs with this temp.
Cheers


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## QldKev (2/8/13)

*Have you read this thread? *


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## ash2 (2/8/13)

I started to but lost interest in the hot water systems,water tanks & curry recipies posts


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## QldKev (2/8/13)

It's answered in the first few replies.




QldKev said:


> The yeast will still floc out, but you will need to leave it about 3 days at those temps for it to finish.
> 
> I would also look at another fridge long term. If the fridge is warming up over the day and it's running 100% of the time, it's sucking on the power like a 16 year old chick sucking on a .....
> 
> ...


If you leave it at 4.5c the yeast will still floc out over a few days. I actually set my fridge to 4c and leave it for over a week. My fridge will go below zero no problems, it just sits there waiting for keg space.

But if you fridge can only get to 4.5c then it will be working hard sucking on the electricity. Say the fridge is 250w and it runs continuously, hence the lowest temperature you can get to. Then 250w * 25c per kWh = 6c per hour. 6c * 24hours a day = $1.44 a day. Over a week = $10 in power. It won't take too many brews to make the purchase of a more efficient fridge worthwhile. This inefficient fridge is also drawaing more energy at normal fermenting temperatures too.


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## CosmicBertie (2/8/13)

But will his hot water system still work if its plumbed into the rain water tank?


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## ash2 (2/8/13)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> But will his hot water system still work if its plumbed into the rain water tank?


That's the question on everybody's lips.


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## Rocker1986 (3/8/13)

The first time I tried cold crashing, it only got down to about 4C as well. The beer turned out to be one of the clearest beers I've ever brewed. This wasn't anything to do with the fridge being incapable, I just hadn't had the setting low enough in the fridge itself to bring it down any further. Once I figured that out and set it to its coldest setting, I set my STC to 1C with a 0.3C differential, and the fridge brings it down no problems and only comes on for short periods not very often to maintain it. This fridge is about 70 odd years old too.


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## ash2 (3/8/13)

Rocker1986 said:


> The first time I tried cold crashing, it only got down to about 4C as well. The beer turned out to be one of the clearest beers I've ever brewed. This wasn't anything to do with the fridge being incapable, I just hadn't had the setting low enough in the fridge itself to bring it down any further. Once I figured that out and set it to its coldest setting, I set my STC to 1C with a 0.3C differential, and the fridge brings it down no problems and only comes on for short periods not very often to maintain it. This fridge is about 70 odd years old too.


Thanks Rocker1986 ( or Kelsey )LOL,Thats what I havn't checked was the fridge settings,i will do that tmoz when I go back to work.
Cheers :beer:
P.S. I thought that the STC would override the fridge settings,but we all know what thoughts do. :blink:


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## ash2 (4/8/13)

Rocker1986 said:


> The first time I tried cold crashing, it only got down to about 4C as well. The beer turned out to be one of the clearest beers I've ever brewed. This wasn't anything to do with the fridge being incapable, I just hadn't had the setting low enough in the fridge itself to bring it down any further. Once I figured that out and set it to its coldest setting, I set my STC to 1C with a 0.3C differential, and the fridge brings it down no problems and only comes on for short periods not very often to maintain it. This fridge is about 70 odd years old too.


Thanks Mate it was as simple as checking the fridge settings,now they are down to 1.5c


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## Rocker1986 (4/8/13)

No worries mate. Yeah, I had a similar thought, but I guess it makes more sense that the fridge will only get as cold as it is set to, regardless of the setting on the STC being lower or not. Glad it worked out for ya though!


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## sponge (5/8/13)

ash2 said:


> P.S. I thought that the STC would override the fridge settings,but we all know what thoughts do. :blink:


That's why I never think before doing anything these days.


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## Rocker1986 (8/8/13)

One thing I did notice was that the fridge remained on the whole time, when I had it set warmer than the STC. The light would come on when I opened the door etc, even though it wasn't working to cool it any further, whereas if the STC is set to a higher temp than the fridge is set to, it will actually switch the fridge completely off when it gets to the set temp. So basically the fridge was working as it normally would without an STC being in place, until I re set it to a lower temp. I normally cold crash at 1C now, not sure if the fridge will go any lower as I haven't tried yet. Might switch the STC down to 0 tomorrow and see if it gets there.


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## anthonyUK (8/8/13)

The circuit is basically two relays in series so if either open the power to the compressor is cut. The STC1000 does this by killing the power completely as you mentioned.


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## Rocker1986 (9/8/13)

Ah that makes sense. That certainly explains why the fridge thermostat would override the STC if the fridge is set to a warmer temp than the STC is.


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## Yob (9/8/13)

One of my fridges would do a similar thing, wouldn't drop to sub 4's

Someone here told me How to disable the fridge thermostat by snipping a few wires and I've clocked it at sub zero temps now.

Also, if you are getting down to 1 to 2 degrees, set the differential on the STC to 1 degree, it's still at a temp that the yeast will flocc at and the fridge doesn't need to work as hard.


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