# Vic Case Swap Equipment....ongoing..



## MartinOC (13/12/16)

Carrying-on from here.... http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91593-vic-xmas-2016-case-swap-recipe-cockos-place/page-16#entry1423683

'Just thought to carry-on from post #284...


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## Mardoo (13/12/16)

I've been contemplating the idea of a Big Brew club for some time now. I've talked about it some with Adam, and plan to some more. It seems that making some informal club of folks who want to work on Adam's big system from time to time might be a way to get the kinks ironed out in this system, plan what reasonable changes need to be made to the system, get the funds together to do that, and brew some beer. Because beer.


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## husky (14/12/16)

Keen to be involved in this and happy to throw my hat in the ring when it comes to having anything made up to improve the current set up that I saw you guys using at the xmas bash.
If a generator is an option I could assist with a 600L kettle with 30kW heating in the near future. If the solution is a non generator variety then happy to help out with a HERMS or similar setup to run on either electricity(suitable for residential connection off multiple circuits) or maybe even gas as I have a sketch of something I was looking to build one day using a Rinnai gas hot water heater on LPG to heat recirculation water for the mash using indirect heat exchange..


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## husky (21/3/17)

Had 5 minutes spare last weekend so had a crack at designing something that could do large volume portably(as much as possible anyway). Starting with the easiest first I have ordered the materials to build a 900L BFK! will be gas fired so will build a stand and allow as many burners as required to sit beneath. Has tangential out and inlet to allow hooking up a pump for WP. I have drawn something up and will get it fabricated in the next month or so, happy for people to PM me with anything that should be incorporated. Plan to make it available to anyone wanting to get together and do some larger scale stuff.

80% worked through a design for a portable LPG instantaneous hot water heater system to heat mash and sparge water. If there's any plumbers out there that can help out with sourcing a suitable heater, that would be great. Currently thinking a Rinnai HD unit that can heat to 85 deg C via pumped recirculation.

Input/ideas would be good.


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## malt junkie (22/3/17)

BFK??? Big [email protected]$koff Kettle?? Awesome work only thought would be 2 x outets with pickups, so we can cube twice as fast. Are you using TC connections?


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## husky (22/3/17)

Correct, Big [email protected]$king Kettle. Have gone with a 1.5" outlet with triclamp connection. Might bump it up to 2" so it could have two hose barbs to fill 2 x cubes at a time, good idea.


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## micbrew (22/3/17)

I may have a contact for a hot water service ..tbc


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## technobabble66 (22/3/17)

Wow, husky. 
That's a pretty [email protected]$&#%g impressive effort. Very generous of you!
One quick thought, is it worth the hassle of plumbing in an inlet/outlet solely for whirlpooling? 
I'm only thinking that doing the WP on idzys 600L with a big mash paddle wasn't really that difficult. 
Obviously 900L could make it significantly less practical, and automated anything is always better [emoji41] But if it's a hassle it would be along way down the priority list. 
Cheers


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## malt junkie (22/3/17)

husky said:


> Correct, Big [email protected]$king Kettle. Have gone with a 1.5" outlet with triclamp connection. Might bump it up to 2" so it could have two hose barbs to fill 2 x cubes at a time, good idea.


1.5" is pretty standard, I'd stick with that and T off to 2 valves, the ID will be around 1" anyway. Plenty of flow for cubing, if the T attaches to a butterfly valve rather than directly to the kettle, whirlpool can have full flow from the butterfly valve.


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## husky (25/3/17)

BFK900 80% complete.

Still required:
Acid clean
Scotchbrite
Buy some butterfly valves
Buy pump. Thinking the newer big Keg King pump to see if it gets a whirlpool happening.
Make a lid

Total Vol = 900L so who wants to do a big batch? Will need an assortment of burners to see how much power is required to get this to the boil at a good rate. I have a burner with med pressure reg but it definitely wont be enough. I'm thinking it needs around 180,000 BTU/hr of burners which is approx. equivalent to 50kw.
Inlet and outlet can be rotated to desired orientation - handy.























I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, have wanted to build one for a while now.


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## Mardoo (25/3/17)

I never would have guessed your next project would be a portable, 900L brew rig for case swaps 

It's...BOOTEEFULL!


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## droid (25/3/17)

^I try to refrain from profanity but **** YES!


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## droid (25/3/17)

I think I'm in love with husky....if someone can tell me about model #'s for hot water I can get it at cost +5% + the G and any electrical components - just throwing it out there if needed PM me


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## DJ_L3ThAL (25/3/17)

husky I already knew you didn't F-around, but wow. Awesome effort, you've got some great contacts!! Subscribed and keen to assist in whatever way I can?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (25/3/17)

I've got an Italian spiral burner that came with a higher pressure (think medium) reg and is 2-point adjustable (reg and Inlet needle valve). Happy to use for testing, case swaps etc. I keep it here for a backup in case I lose power on brew day [emoji3]


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## gezzanet (25/3/17)

Now that's almost as impressive as your brew bench 
Size matters


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## husky (25/3/17)

From what I saw on the last swap brew the mash recirc was the biggest issue. Thoughts on the below:
Grant with RIMS concept
Prefer to use gravity instead of a pump(too many sucked in FB's) although should be ok using the current manifold arrangement
Constant recirc through the grant to prevent burn on with a valve to divert excess flow to the MT's
Down side is it needs to be constantly monitored otherwise it could overflow. Could put a cap on the grant to prevent this however. 
Throttling valves to restrict flow out of MT's to prevent compacting grain bed
3 x standard KK elements for ease of replacement. Should be able to access 3 x power circuits but possibly lacking the grunt required. Gas fired grant?
The one below is 300mm diameter x 400 high
Just throwing some ideas out there.


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## Nullnvoid (26/3/17)

husky said:


> BFK Assembly.JPG


Only met you once I think, but this looks nothing like you!


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## malt junkie (26/3/17)

That kettle is bloody gorgeous!


I had thought through this a bit since our last swap and the starting of this thread. A gas fired Herms in a 50/100L kette with 3/4" coil plenty of kick to ramp at a reasonable rate. I think you'd really have to be pushing even the bigger KK pumps to compact the bed with the current manifold set up, that is if the beginning of the recirc is manage well. Burner control (via pid/brauduino)isn't hard to implement but head brewer would have to keep and eye on it. From memory we had 2x275L and 1x200l eky mush tuns, would multiple herms be required? Multiple coils in the herms kettle?

Not adverse to the RIMS grant, but would mean any brew location would need some serious power available just for the rig, I think we blew the circuits at cockos 3 or 4 times, and less power lines around to trip over when Jessie is handing out RIS's can only be a good thing.

Seriously That kettle :blink:


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## MartinOC (26/3/17)

WOW!!!!

Love the Grant idea. How about a small supplementary gas burner under it for quicker ramping (electronic control of the elements for ramping & rest maintenance).

To prevent overflow & the need for constant monitoring, how about a float-switch that automatically turns-on a pump for excess return to the MT's?


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## malt junkie (26/3/17)

MartinOC said:


> WOW!!!!
> 
> Love the Grant idea. How about a small supplementary gas burner under it for quicker ramping (electronic control of the elements for ramping & rest maintenance).
> 
> To prevent overflow & the need for constant monitoring, how about a float-switch that automatically turns-on a pump for excess return to the MT's?


yeah this works, I think our biggest issue was ability to ramp with the little herms units. Considering the state most of us are in halfway through brew day at a swap, a fail-safe for any recirc system would be wise. Definitely agree with a gas booster or direct fired with solenoid control. Hot surface ignitor, rather than pilot light, using a honeywell or equivalent valve and your as safe as your home HWS.

One request! Can we have pezio's for the BFK? you guys freak me out when yer lighting those bloody big burners.


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## MartinOC (26/3/17)

A few singed arm hairs is a rite of passage for any case swap... :unsure:


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## technobabble66 (26/3/17)

Fan ******* tastic husky!
Truly impressive. 

Who's Grant and what's he doing in the mash? [emoji185]
(I assume a grant is just a big heat exchanger/boiler type thingy). 

Any reason to do RIMS and not HERMS? I don't do either, but I thought the HERMS is roughly the same but with zero chance of scorching. My only concern is Mr Cockup enjoys frequently popping in during the brew day, so minimizing the risk of scorching might be worth dropping the HEX efficiency a tiny bit. But happy to be corrected here. 

Yeah, the mash ramp was the only real issue we had. So it seemed like we needed to improve both the HEX units/capacity/power plus the flow throughput (so the pumps/pipes capacity). 
It looks like you're covering both of those elements already in your comments. 

Might be handy if we could rotate the outlet/pickup arm to a high and low position. Not necessary, but idzy's big kettle has the ability to have the pickup arm positioned several inches above the bottom, then rotate it down to the bottom for the last 20% of the wort. Helps prevent disturbing the whirlpool. As I said though, not necessary and I think we forgot to use it last time and it was all fine. 

How are we going to move this thing??


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/3/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Who's Grant and what's he doing in the mash? [emoji185]
> (I assume a grant is just a big heat exchanger/boiler type thingy).
> 
> Any reason to do RIMS and not HERMS? I don't do either, but I thought the HERMS is roughly the same but with zero chance of scorching. My only concern is Mr Cockup enjoys frequently popping in during the brew day, so minimizing the risk of scorching might be worth dropping the HEX efficiency a tiny bit. But happy to be corrected here.
> ...


Grant description - https://beerandbrewing.com/3-advantages-of-a-lauter-grant/

I'd think that the advantage of RIMS for such a large volume is that ramp times would be reduced (if designed right) and there is no risk of overshoot and the headaches with tuning/dialling in the system as once at the temp the element in contact with the wort would just switch off (rapidly carrying the residual heat in the element away where as a HERMS has a huge volume of heat capacity and you would need to stop the recirculation in order to stop ramping/overshoot. It also removes the need for a large vessel to store the hot water/HEX in.

As always, I could be totally wrong and happy to be corrected.


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## malt junkie (26/3/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Fan ******* tastic husky!
> Truly impressive.
> 
> Certainly is!
> ...


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## micbrew (26/3/17)

Oh lawdy lawdy 

I have seen the light 

Godam husky that is the SHIZ


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## husky (30/4/17)

Can anyone tell me what burner was used for the xmas swap on Idzy's tank and what the boil off rate was? Trying to find a suitable burner for the 900L kettle, biggest I can find is a 320,000Btu from the states and suspect it will still be a bit small if doing a full volume(approx. 700L) boil. Anyone with experience in this area?


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## GrumpyPaul (30/4/17)

Have you boys ever thought about picking up a trailer and mounting your big rig on it - would be perfect for moving around to swap meet locations.


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## malt junkie (30/4/17)

husky said:


> Can anyone tell me what burner was used for the xmas swap on Idzy's tank and what the boil off rate was? Trying to find a suitable burner for the 900L kettle, biggest I can find is a 320,000Btu from the states and suspect it will still be a bit small if doing a full volume(approx. 700L) boil. Anyone with experience in this area?


Martin would be the bloke to ask, the burner we were using was the same as the KK bango with high pressure reg. The BFK may need 2 or 3 of these, should be enough room under there.


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## malt junkie (30/4/17)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Have you boys ever thought about picking up a trailer and mounting your big rig on it - would be perfect for moving around to swap meet locations.


Yep designed in my head several times.... one power ball.


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## husky (30/4/17)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Have you boys ever thought about picking up a trailer and mounting your big rig on it - would be perfect for moving around to swap meet locations.


The BFK will fit in the back of a dual cab ute easily, it's 980mm diameter from memory then a bit of room behind for the stand. Too hard to store a trailer for me and you would need more than one to fit the whole brewery anyway.
I rekon it's kind of cool that everyone bring a bit of kit that all gets assembled on the day into a working brewery somewhere random and then disassembled, adds to the appeal. A rolling brewery would be cheating.


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## malt junkie (30/4/17)

Well, a car sized trailer might just fit the whole thing. Like I said thought about this abit. I agree it's half the fun pulling a brewery together from bits and pieces for the weekend. Last one was an absolute perler!


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## Benn (30/4/17)

If it's burners you need, I've got a spiral burner with HP reg and gas bottles I'd be happy to lend for the cause.


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## MartinOC (30/4/17)

malt junkie said:


> Martin would be the bloke to ask, the burner we were using was the same as the KK bango with high pressure reg. The BFK may need 2 or 3 of these, should be enough room under there.


Yep, Idzy uses ONE of those on the 600L boiler & we still had to keep an eye on it for boil-overs. Get the heat on as soon as the bottom of the boiler gets wet during runoff & it's generally boiling by the time the runnings hit 1010 (or shortly thereafter).


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## MartinOC (30/4/17)

Benn said:


> If it's burners you need, I've got a spiral burner with HP reg and gas bottles I'd be happy to lend for the cause.


Yep, thanks. Bring the lot along (wherever it ends-up being!) & bring your party-hat & dancing-shoes. Everything/everyone is welcome & as MJ pointed-out, it's kinda fun to cobble-together a brewery out of nothing on the day.


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## husky (30/4/17)

This is the one I'm looking at claimed 320,000BTU:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111903985241?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The same looking one available at Auscrown but 1/3 the rating? 118Mj/hr = 113,000BTU/hr?
https://www.auscrown.com.au/products/product/32-jet-mongolian-burner-lp-gas

Anyone know anything about these? They look to be low pressure burners but claim a high output, was thinking I need a med or high pressure burner but cant find anything around the same claimed 320,000BTU.


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## TheWiggman (30/4/17)

You're out of control husky. Shit man, check yourself. Compliments out of the way, if I may...
I've never heard of a grant up until now but I get the system proposed. Personally I would make it fully enclosed with a 50mm boss on the top for cleaning/access, or alternatively a fully sealed hinged or screwed lid. Commence flow, fill the grant completely and bleed from the top. Seal. Then run the pump and boom - zero risk of overflow, flow in = flow out. Some consideration would need to be put into the inlet and outlet locations of course to ensure no dead zones. "but wiggaz way if it boils yfi lolol!!1!" I hear you say. No drama, it will boil through the suction or inlet so it won't explode. That won't happen with a working sensor though. 
Agree about pump, needs to be 3 x the power of a Chugger in my opinion.


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## malt junkie (3/5/17)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Have you boys ever thought about picking up a trailer and mounting your big rig on it - would be perfect for moving around to swap meet locations.



I drew (by hand, I don't get that cad thing) up a 3v home system that, on swap day could support (herms, sparge and tippy dump for the mash) a techni ice mash tun up to 300l, gas fired, using less than 3amps for pumps and control. Foot print came to 1.3m x 1.4m (perfect for a 7x4 trailer) using 24m odd of 50mm SHS, So 3 of these and the BFK would fit on a car trailer, however brewing while mounted on a trailer would be near impossible. 

Each system alone would have a brew length of(dependent on chosen vessel sizes) between 80-180L as a home system. System comprising 2 kettles, BK 170-225L(used as sparge/strike at swaps), HLT 100- 170L ( HX supply), two counter flow chillers (run in parallel for herms), two Banjo burners,1x Honeywell gas controller, 3x KK 65w pumps, BrewmaniacEx controller (these are cheap I'm building them) and 2 x fans to turbo charge the burners, then a techni ice Tun of between 100-200L. Ideally as we've noted from past experience vessel outlets/inlets and hoses would all need to be bigger that 1/2 inch and at best go with 1.5" TC.

Looking over that list it ain't cheap, however if there were a few guys looking at upgrading to a larger/collab brew setups, then the buying power of 2 or 3 sets of these items would help somewhat.

food for thought


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## TheWiggman (14/5/17)

Any update on this? Brew day is creeping up.
For what it's worth my new controller is fancy AF and can control 2 x 15A mash vessels (or mash + HLT) from a single 15A power point. It only runs one at a time and will switch between them, preferencing the mash tun. Can also program 4 mash steps. I say this because we had trips galore on the Christmas swap but this will 100% have things under control overnight.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (14/5/17)

Nice, the electric Brewery panel clone?


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## TheWiggman (14/5/17)

On mobile but check out 'Another Arduino controller' thread. Mr Wibble wrote an absolutely A1 program controlled by an encoder and all GUI. It's brilliant except for some screen issues I'm getting. It will work fine for what we need it for.


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## technobabble66 (14/5/17)

That'd be fantastic, Wiggas.
That trip-out ~15mins after everyone went to bed and waking up to cold water was definitely a bit annoying.


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## JB (15/5/17)

#cockupatcockos


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## malt junkie (15/5/17)

Boil all strike water night before, hell we were still up at one last time, temp at kick off would still be in the 50/60's.


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## technobabble66 (15/5/17)

^+1. If we could wrap the kettle in a blanket or 2 before bed I reckon this is the simplest, fail safe option. 
Without blanket, likely to still be ~50*C by morning, but blanket should guarantee it being nice and high, ready for mashing in. 
2c


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## malt junkie (15/5/17)

Have moving blankets and duck tape!!


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## MartinOC (15/5/17)

Man, that's almost magical!

You have self-animated blankets & tape that quacks??


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## idzy (15/5/17)

Wow husky, I have only just seen this. Awesome work on the kettle! Absolutely magic!

I have a very large SS conical (~1000 litres) that I will have to talk to you about modifying and then we would have a matching HLT.

The three issues last time were ramping 500-600 litres of near frozen mash, only have two 10 amp outlets for the HEXs and relying on a timer (that didn't work) to start heating at 6am (rather than the time we noticed it didn't start - 9am). The lessons were, don't do a cold mash, have more than two 10 amp outlets, and KISS. As Nath mentioned, Mr Cockup hasn't missed a swap in a long time.

Ideally we want to mash in at 60 for a 55 rest. In July, we will be doing this with an instant hot water service. With regards to outlets, you really want at least 4x 10 amp outlets, ideally on two separate circuits. Keeping things nice a simple helps too, in the past we have used STC-1000s for running the HEXs, my preference is to upgrade these to PIDs with SSDs but I would need someone to design this for me, as I have no idea (similar to Wiggman's). PM me if you are game.


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## malt junkie (15/5/17)

idzy said:


> Wow husky, I have only just seen this. Awesome work on the kettle! Absolutely magic!
> 
> I have a very large SS conical (~1000 litres) that I will have to talk to you about modifying and then we would have a matching HLT.
> 
> ...



Idzy, 
I'll be bring up a controller, has PID with auto tune, set up to control mash and HLT temps and mash pump, with automagic step temps, I expect to be knocking out a fair few of these, also has wifi with web interface, I'll bring one to the swap, just as long as china's postal system don't hold things up too much. The one I'll bring will only have 2x 40amp SSR's, I'm looking at my final box having 3x SSR's, Might even be able to rig an extra non control web page so any of the lads can check on progress from any phone or tablet through out the day.


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## malt junkie (15/5/17)

MartinOC said:


> Man, that's almost magical!
> 
> You have self-animated blankets & tape that quacks??


I thought these came standard with every seventh consecutive pint of Belgian consumed. Surely you have at least as many as I????


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## TheWiggman (16/5/17)

What do you plug that thing into?


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## malt junkie (16/5/17)

TheWiggman said:


> What do you plug that thing into?


If this was regarding my post, I use the 40amp SSR's as standard, purely to ensure they're over rated. The controller I'll bring up has two 10amp inlets (sockets rated to 20amp each) I guess you could run 20amp per if you had the power available. Then 3 similarly rated outlets, one for pump, one mash and one HLT. My final version will have an extra inlet and outlet to allow either a double element for either the HLT or MLT, I'll be building this towards the end of the year.


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## TheWiggman (16/5/17)

Okie dokes. I ask because my unit has a 15A plug and 2 x 15A sockets but 2 40A SSRs. It'll need a single 15A power source. All depends on what idzy has on his walls.


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## malt junkie (16/5/17)

My plan down the track is to fire burners not elements, that is the relays open solenoids to fire various burners, therefore 1 mash and 1 HLT will draw less than 2 or 3 amps including 2x pumps. It'll be a hybrid of where the current controller is heading.


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## husky (21/5/17)

husky said:


> This is the one I'm looking at claimed 320,000BTU:
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111903985241?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> The same looking one available at Auscrown but 1/3 the rating? 118Mj/hr = 113,000BTU/hr?
> ...


Anyone got ideas on burners to boil a 900L kettle?

Pic below of where the BFK is at.
Added valves to allow 2 x outlets for filling 2 x cubes at a time.
Also has 2 x inlets we could connect 2 x pumps to and do a whirlpool, not sure how successful this would be but would like to try.
Added a lid.
Atted temp gauge
Working on a height adjustable bar that I can bolt a couple of burners to.
Still need to acid the welds and remove the PVC from the outside.

Crazy busy at work currently so have not re visited a grant to ramp mash temps but will get some free time in a couple of weeks may do something.


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## Benn (21/5/17)

DIY Burner? From memory there's a few clips on YouTube of home made jobs.... I was considering it till I scored a spiral burner off eBay for $10 
She'll be right mate, safe as houses


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## MartinOC (21/5/17)

Husky, I don't know if you should be awarded a medal or immediately committed to a local asylum.

Either way, that boiler is a thing of beauty & should definitely be given a run.


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## malt junkie (21/5/17)

Surely, if we were sober enough we could get two runs out of thew weekend? 

Yeah ok I've had a few, .... one run it is!


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## MartinOC (22/5/17)

malt junkie said:


> Surely, if we were sober enough we could get two runs out of the weekend?


Consider yourself Cyber-Spanked for considering such a riotously ridiculous suggestion.

Sober?? On a Case Swap weekend? Bah! Humbug!


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## TheWiggman (22/5/17)

malt junkie said:


> Surely, *if we were sober enough* we could get two runs out of thew weekend?
> 
> Yeah ok I've had a few, .... one run it is!


Completely agree, thus it will never happen.


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## husky (26/6/17)

Burners sorted I think. 2 x Keg King units, I believe idzy uses one of these burners under his 600L so here's hoping two is enough here. The regulators that come with them say max 2kg/hr propane which I don't think will be enough so trying to find a couple of high pressure adjustable regulators.
Burner will be about 120mm from the base of the tank, anyone have experience with this? ok or needs adjustment?
Anyone that regularly uses gas advise if there is a way to get consistency in boil off between batches? Can a pressure gauge be fitted to the low pressure side to maintain a constant pressure each brew? My old 3V has gas and I could never get the same boil off rate between brews.


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## malt junkie (26/6/17)

@husky I only link this site for the last of the product pics on the page, well ok it's some pretty cool gear but I think it answers one of your questions.


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## husky (26/6/17)

Ooo nice, haven't seen that site before. So looks like I need to find some LPG suitable TEE's and gauges. Same style burner so more confident now that 2 burners is fine.


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## MartinOC (26/6/17)

Seriously, mate, what you've achieved so far is waaay above & beyond the call of duty. Absolutely STELLAR performance!

The two you have will be fine. Idzy's single burner was enough to get 600l of pre-boil volume absolutely cranking & actually had to be turned down a few times to prevent boilovers ('Gotta say, I'm not generally impressed with KK stuff, but this is one piece of their kit that they got absolutely right & is MUCH better than they advertise).

Are you planning on fixing the burners in place, or have them moveable under the framework? I honestly think that once the boil gets under-way, a single one (possibly under the centre of the boiler) will do the job admirably to keep a good rolling boil.

BTW, you're going to be IC volume/boil-off rates for reference to future brews with this monster....


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## husky (26/6/17)

MartinOC said:


> Seriously, mate, what you've achieved so far is waaay above & beyond the call of duty. Absolutely STELLAR performance!
> 
> The two you have will be fine. Idzy's single burner was enough to get 600l of pre-boil volume absolutely cranking & actually had to be turned down a few times to prevent boilovers ('Gotta say, I'm not generally impressed with KK stuff, but this is one piece of their kit that they got absolutely right & is MUCH better than they advertise).
> 
> ...



The burner looks like a standard design available is many other places so hopefully ok.
I was going to have them moveable beneath and have built a slide bar to mount the burners to but when I picked up the burners the height of the standard frame suits to within 1mm(just lucky) so I think I will leave them as is moveable beneath the frame. Once its to the boil one can be turner off but there's no room to remove it so it will be an off centre boil if only running 1 burner, should be ok and might help turn the work over better? Will try first and mount them to the frame if it doesn't work as is.


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## malt junkie (26/6/17)

Martin you missed using our newest and best emoji specifically for this kind of effort!!


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## MartinOC (26/6/17)

Buggered if I know how to do emoji's under the new regime, but that's a perfect one for this situation! 

How the **** do I do this new stuff??


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## husky (26/6/17)

Who knows stuff about gas?

Below is what I have conjured up from some bits and pieces. Before I go to a gas type place who can answer me this:
- Do I need a specific gauge? I have a compressed air one currently but does it need to be made of certain materials?
- Materials, assume stainless is ok? Nicer than brass
- Does the orifice have to go right at the inlet to the burner or will it be ok before the TEE for the gauge?
- Where do I go to talk gas and parts? Reece?


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## malt junkie (26/6/17)

Does the hose unscrew from the reg? I think the gauge would be better further away from the heat.


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## TheWiggman (26/6/17)

I've never seen stainless on a gas system except at the burners. Not sure if there's a reason for this but I'd prefer the benefit of the doubt. Normally gas fittings have O-rings on them and threaded fittings to suit but I think this is mainly to minimise the chance of a leak.
I wouldn't bother with the gauge, I think the anger of the flames will be enough of a giveaway of how hard it's going. Reece might give you tips but a qualified plumber is probably your best bet.


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## malt junkie (26/6/17)

BOC do have this low pressure gauge, (if 600kpa is in the ball park) and for that money, I'd be happy knowing the gauge was fit for purpose. I think the stainless would be fine though the jet does need to be in the burner to create the venturi effect to suck in oxygen. Also those nipples look to be a different thread to the burner and T, and around stuff that burns .....


----------



## husky (26/6/17)

The threads are all 1/4" BSPT I just haven't screwed them all the way in during test fit. Moved the gauge. Will call some people tomorrow but I like the idea of the pressure gauge so there is a variable to adjust when aiming for a certain boil off rate.


----------



## malt junkie (27/6/17)

May be simpler there is a third outlet on the bottom for a gauge, just not sure if it's high or low, but wouldn't take much to figure out. And the reg is Npt


----------



## droid (27/6/17)

If there's a bit of wind about it can take forever to boil with no walls/guards around the base. Idzy fashioned some windbreakers.


----------



## Whiteferret (27/6/17)

+1 to the idea of wind guards. Most of you guys have seen my boiler but here's a picture. This saved roughly 1/3 the time and gas to get to the boil


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## malt junkie (27/6/17)

Actually if the burners were later to be permanently mounted, the sides could be completely enclosed; and a fan blower (think supercharger people) rigged to the air intake. This would improve fuel efficiency too. Yes it's been done before with LP natrual gas, but principle applies. And the fan blowers are cheap too (12v from memory).

ED : LINK to the fan, then you'd just use a cheap POT or voltage controller to control fan speed.


----------



## technobabble66 (27/6/17)

Fantastic work, husky. 
+1 on the wind guard. Might be good to look at both a guard for the kettle (like whiteferret has pictured), plus a guard for the stand similar to what idzy has on his. 


-1 for whiteferret's poor photography skills [emoji1]


----------



## Nullnvoid (27/6/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Fantastic work, husky.
> +1 on the wind guard. Might be good to look at both a guard for the kettle (like whiteferret has pictured), plus a guard for the stand similar to what idzy has on his.
> 
> 
> -1 for whiteferret's poor photography skills [emoji1]




In whiteferrets defence, all the times I have seen it, I have been drinking heavily and so my eyesight probably was that hazy. Probably wouldn't have recognised it, if it was a clear picture


----------



## husky (27/6/17)

I have put 100mm sheet down the 4 sides as a wind break but sounds like it needs to be completely enclosed?
Also turns out brass is usually used to prevent sparks/static when assembling/disassembling so have ordered some brass fittings and gauges. Can't see stainless being an issue here anyway but better safe than sorry I guess.


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## MartinOC (27/6/17)

Nope, 'doesn't need to be completely enclosed, just enough to stop draughts blowing the flames out/sideways from the burners.

Idzy has some heavy-duty aluminium(?) foil surrounding the base of his burner stand & seems to work a treat.

Dunno about MJ's blower idea, 'though. As long as air can get in/under/through the stand (read: a few perfectly acceptable leaky-bits), there shouldn't be any need for supplementary airflow.


----------



## malt junkie (27/6/17)

MartinOC said:


> Nope, 'doesn't need to be completely enclosed, just enough to stop draughts blowing the flames out/sideways from the burners.
> 
> Idzy has some heavy-duty aluminium(?) foil surrounding the base of his burner stand & seems to work a treat.
> 
> Dunno about MJ's blower idea, 'though. As long as air can get in/under/through the stand (read: a few perfectly acceptable leaky-bits), there shouldn't be any need for supplementary airflow.


Agree, if you fully enclosed without an dedicated air intake for the burner it would starve of oxygen. The blower idea I stole from elsewhere and may or may not be something you could exbeeriment with, if later down the track you decide to permanently mount the burners. With the blower in place you could near fully enclose the burner, you would still need say an inch of space around the bottom to allow convection flow. We can discuss at the swap, and it's something I'll be playing with next year myself.


----------



## husky (27/6/17)

Has 100mm shielding will see how it goes. If it all works ok then I will look at permanently mounting the burners and can then add further shielding.

I haven't looked at the grant idea for a while but simplistically could we just gravity out of mash tuns into a stainless tank with a burner under it and pump back to the mash with a burner under the tank. Would be very agricultural, not super accurate and need full time attendance but might be a back up option if temps are taking ages to ramp. Basically an inline decoction to ramp temps.


----------



## MartinOC (27/6/17)

I may be able to help us out here...

Clever Brewing has a number of "Corporate" items (ie. stuff that got damaged in delivery to us that we can't sell, but perfectly serviceable) including a heavy-duty pot with two ports. We could set that up as the grant/HEX on a burner.

I can cannibalise my home system HEX to monitor exit temps with an STC & just adjust the flow/burner to get where we want to be. Agricultural, but effective.

Thoughts anyone?


----------



## husky (27/6/17)

MartinOC said:


> I may be able to help us out here...
> 
> Clever Brewing has a number of "Corporate" items (ie. stuff that got damaged in delivery to us that we can't sell, but perfectly serviceable) including a heavy-duty pot with two ports. We could set that up as the grant/HEX on a burner.
> 
> ...



At the very least I rekon bring it as a back up, but should try use it and see how it goes so for these larger scale brews we not relying on electricity which we know struggles. With a bit of work could be a good basis for a large volume temp ramp system, We can see how it works and design a more permanent solution at the swap.


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## malt junkie (27/6/17)

Martin,
I have a thermowell and tee not being used (in the it will happen one day spare parts bin) and with a few other bits and bobs we should get there without having to tare down a system. Also I'll be finally getting the brewmaniacex controller put together over the next few days and testing next week, all going well I can bring it.

I'm not a big fan of direct fire mash, but until we come up with gear to do gas fired herms that can scale, it's a simple system but will need a constant eye.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL (27/6/17)

Compressed air gauge may have oil in it, small risk using with fuel gases. Brass or SS fittings should be OK. In high end industrial fuel gas applications SS is more common but look at BBQ fittings etc, they're all brass so don't stress just use what you have and make sure it's kept clean of course.

Try Gameco for LPG gauges/fittings etc, there's a gauge here (https://www.gameco.com.au/product/pressure-guage-100kpa-50mm-14/) and if the regulator you got has questionable output they have very high output regs (1500MJ/hr - 2500MJ/hr) as well. The guys are pretty helpful. Let me know if I can be more help, I'm far from an expert in fuel gases but can try find out any other info needed [emoji106][emoji3]


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## husky (6/7/17)

Finally got time to sort out the BFK.
Acid cleaned and removed all the PVC.
Sourced some brass fittings and pressure gauge.
Test fired the kettle yesterday. Semi successful. Only ran 1 burner as I only had 1 full gas bottle, got approx. 300L to the boil with relative ease until the gas bottle froze up! Was running 40psi but I'm guessing at that rate as the LPG vaporises quickly its absorbing heat and freezing the outside of the bottle. This is ok except for the fact I think the cooler bottle temp also drops bottle pressure to around 20psi which drops burner output. I don't use gas is this a common problem? Once the bottle settled for an hr or so then I could get 40psi again.
Perhaps we try 2 burners and 30psi to slow the bottle freezing(or warm the bottle?)
What time do you guys want me to drop this off tomorrow?


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## technobabble66 (6/7/17)

Rockin'!!
Looks fantastic, husky!
Yes, the frozen bottle has been a problem since we started using Idzy's big kettle (well, at least in winter, i think the last one in summer was ok). We found that if we sat the bottle in a big tub of water, it would freeze and could maintain outlet pressure.
Hopefully someone will have a suitable water tub.


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## JB (6/7/17)

Husky, the BFK is a thing of beauty. Looking forward to seeing it in action. Legendary status for life!


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## Nullnvoid (6/7/17)

Isn't Martin bringing Curly's big bottle?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/7/17)

Yep the big LPG bottle will be there, more surface area on the bottle should allow more heat absorption to allow more vapourisation. We can also just hug it all day to warm it up[emoji13]

MAD job husky! You just won the Interwebs!


----------



## mofox1 (6/7/17)

That is some serious sexy brew porn.


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## Mardoo (6/7/17)

Can we hear it for the stand? Nice one.


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## Shortybronx (6/7/17)

holy crap that is awesome


----------



## Curly79 (6/7/17)

That's friggen magic Husky! Big bottle didn't freeze last winter swap.


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## Curly79 (6/7/17)

How you gunna cube out of that big fucker?


----------



## mofox1 (6/7/17)

Curly79 said:


> How you gunna cube out of that big fucker?



Good point.... is that tri clover? hoping there is a fitting + tube for it for cubing??

On a related note.. We usually have heaps of long silicone tubes, don't know who the rock star that normally does that is, but are they coming to this weekend's swap? I've only got the one tube that is of reasonable size.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/7/17)

From memory that triclover even has a adaptor fitting with 2x hose barbs coming off it?


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## micbrew (6/7/17)

good point Curly !!
does look a little low .. although it has 2 ports


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## MartinOC (6/7/17)

Simple solution to the bottle freezing is to wrap a couple of heat belts around the bottom (I've got one I can bring along, but another would be good).

I'm bringing Curly's 45Kg bottle & one of my own, so we should be right for gas.

The dogs got at my STC HERMS controller (GRRR!). I got replacement probes, but they'll need to be calibrated. Anyone else got something they can bring that's a plug & play solution?

I've got some gash Silicone hose that someone left-behind at Cocko's place (& obviously don't miss it), so I'll bring that along.


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## husky (6/7/17)

Curly79 said:


> How you gunna cube out of that big fucker?



Have some tri clamp fittings to suit 1/2" and 3/4" silicone hose so should be sorted for cube filling.


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## AJ80 (7/7/17)

husky said:


> Have some tri clamp fittings to suit 1/2" and 3/4" silicone hose so should be sorted for cube filling.
> 
> View attachment 106816



Why can I only like this once?? Awesome work Husky. Looking forward to seeing it in action.


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## technobabble66 (7/7/17)

Curly79 said:


> How you gunna cube out of that big fucker?



Dunk them in?
[emoji52]


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## droid (22/7/17)

There's been a bit going on in another thread which is relevant to this thread, probably time it was part of this thread.

It looks like husky is building a mash-tun, whether this is transportable I don't know. I'd really like to build a case-swap HEX but will wait and see what Husky is doing first....

There is a small possibility that I can get my grubby mitts on some used industrial food manufacturing stainless. This place is a delivery point most days, it's feckin massive. I have the name of the guy I need to speak to, they have a heap of bowls, pots, mixers, platforms etc all in stainless that is destined for scrapping or recycling.

Just need to get him on a good day - when the time is right to have a gander. I'll take pics. A small platform that we could use around the brew-house at the swap would be pretty cool. I understand this is maybe taking things too far - but nothing ventured, nothing gained and it's always nice to know where the edge is and there's only one way to know...


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## droid (22/7/17)

page 10 shows a nice layout with an oil heater included - if anyone is interested in different designs

http://www.prosperoequipment.com/download-d/513-pec-brewery-equipment-16/file


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## Mardoo (22/7/17)

Nice. There's gypsy brewing, and there's Gypsy Brewing!


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## husky (22/7/17)

We should talk @droid Ill shoot you a PM later today.


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## mofox1 (22/7/17)

husky said:


> We should talk @droid Ill shoot you a PM later today.


I like the possiblities arising from the two of you talking. Muhuhaha swap insanity.


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## Mardoo (22/7/17)

Do we need to be thinking about a portable steam generator? How about kero fired  Joke, just a joke. 

Actually, the whole oil-filled HEX discussion might be something to have. From kingy's experience it sounds like ramping was significantly improved. Although a HEX based on 3/4" tube could be the go. And/or what about a counter flow HEX to boost efficiency? Never even thought about that before - tube in tube style.


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## malt junkie (22/7/17)

Have suggested a couple of these before:


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## TheWiggman (22/7/17)

How would that work from a control point of view, only heat the counterflow fluid? I think that would work fine but would need an extra pump. A straight HERMS would be simpler. What's the main benefit of the counterflow?


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## Mardoo (22/7/17)

No definite benefit I can document, but there's potential for higher efficiency of heat exchange, just like counter flow chillers are said to be more efficient than immersion chillers. An interesting idea at this point.


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## malt junkie (22/7/17)

TheWiggman said:


> How would that work from a control point of view, only heat the counterflow fluid? I think that would work fine but would need an extra pump. A straight HERMS would be simpler. What's the main benefit of the counterflow?


Any HLT based Herms needs to be whirlpooled anyway or you end up with hot and cold spots and uneven heating.


Mardoo said:


> No definite benefit I can document, but there's potential for higher efficiency of heat exchange, just like counter flow chillers are said to be more efficient than immersion chillers. An interesting idea at this point.


T'is part of my plan for going 140L+ I don't have the amps here at home so gas is the only option. HLT control on gas isn't unheard of the trick will be temp vs flow to the cfc. I think best to set the grain bed and set a stable flow, then leave that constant; adjust temp with temp and flow from the HLT. Dialing in won't be a walk in the park, but I see it as a small valve adjustment to ramp. From memory big Nathan had his 5v (150L HLT, 2x 100L Mash, 2x150L boil, with 2 of the above CFC's as HX's, 2 tier from memory) set up in the same way.


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## droid (22/7/17)

Just a quick note on my HERMS and the idea there.

I have a 100ltr system and use a 20ltr birko urn which handles things fine, just. It heats at around the 1dC every 90 seconds . Last week I had 66ltrs at 5.2%, 

Based on that I figured that a 200ltr urn would be ok for 1000ltrs, well, at least 660ltrs into cubes albeit with a bigger pump, coils and heat. The thought was that being the (recent) proud owner of some jet burners I could use one or two under a 44g tank, the burners have lugs for ignitors to fix to, so it would be a case of pressing the ignitor and opening the gas valve/s as needed.

I'm happy to get up early on brew day and start a recirc through something like this, just as I do at home and while it would keep the HEX operator busy, it is a mobile option that would only need power for one decent pump.

it's not the be all and end all - just thoughts that have come along the way. Some kind of oil heated tank would be cool.


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## malt junkie (22/7/17)

Like I said the bigger the HLT the more heat stratification (especially with coils of cooler liquid) hence the need for whirlpool, though 2 pumps would still be under 1amp.


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## Mardoo (22/7/17)

MJ, when you say 2-tier, do you mean running 2 CFHEX's in sequence?


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## malt junkie (22/7/17)

HLT was raise, so gravity fed for sparge, Mash tuns and Kettles on a lower single level either side of the HLT.

HLT

Kettle Mash mash kettle

Bloody formating!


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## droid (22/7/17)

howz about a keggle sized hopback while we're at it? I'm sure there's a few heads that would like to get bent out of shape thinking about that


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## Shortybronx (22/7/17)

droid said:


> Just a quick note on my HERMS and the idea there.
> 
> I have a 100ltr system and use a 20ltr birko urn which handles things fine, just. It heats at around the 1dC every 90 seconds . Last week I had 66ltrs at 5.2%,
> 
> ...




Im interested to see where you go with this. Currently looking into heating about 400L of water at once in a RIMS type set up. Have done tests (500L) with dual RIMS running in series with interesting results. I plan on running four RIMS systems in a series using a pump in which I get about 20L through per Minute. 

Following with interest.


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## Mardoo (22/7/17)

Which pump is that?


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## Shortybronx (22/7/17)

KK 3/4 BSP pump. I can get close to 45L a minute If I open it up completely.


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## malt junkie (22/7/17)

droid said:


> howz about a keggle sized hopback while we're at it? I'm sure there's a few heads that would like to get bent out of shape thinking about that



Don't go there! I have said keg in the shed with a BM malt pipe that would strain hop matter beautifully.


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## MartinOC (22/7/17)

I'm liking where you guys are going with your thinking on this lot, with a bit of caution thrown-in. I'm trying to visualise how these suggestions could be effectively be put into service without someone having to constantly monitor & adjust things whilst still having a few bevvies. The idea is to relax whilst we do all the essential drinking & gas-bagging, letting the wort essentially make itself.

I'd temper the the exuberance with the KISS principle. The more there is to play-with, the more potential we may end-up at home to Mr Cockup. All it would take is one person with that essential bit of kit suddenly unable to attend (like a car accident, Alien-abduction or a promise of weekend-long wild, gratuitous rumpy-pumpy with 16 virgins) & we're all screwed. Pardon the obvious pun there......

I can see how a small HLT/urn supplying to a couple of CFC's would work as a HEX system (greater sensitivity to demands of temp. change) would work. 

If we're going to do a couple of brews over the weekend, maybe we look at doing a Friday night "cold-start-ramp" set to mash-out & just leave it to run overnight? Get-up on Saturday morning, runoff & boil in daylight, rather that having a couple of people working into the wee-smalls on their own? By the time the late-arrivers turn up on the Saturday, it's their job to clean-out the boiler & get everything set up for the second batch.

Just thinking out loud here......


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## droid (22/7/17)

good thoughts Marty

you hate Marty don't ya?


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## idzy (22/7/17)

Sounds like a few people have caught the big brew bug, haha!


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## malt junkie (22/7/17)

seriously there are 16 virgins (over 20) in this country?... you jest! Though I believe from this point on a standard watch the vehicle in front of you carefully when traveling to swap.


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## droid (13/9/17)

Check this !

Left is 1000ltr with some mixers
Right is 1500ltrs
Available fir a price


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## droid (14/9/17)

Well I've been told to pull my head in with spending so those two tanks above are around $700 ea and available on an a$ap basis.

No guarantee I can get.

The following bits might also be handy, I'd need to get a price.


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## homebrewnewb (14/9/17)

aren't you s'posed to be finishing what you started?


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## Shortybronx (14/9/17)

Droid I'm interested in pretty much everything you have posted! Let me know what I need to do haha


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## droid (15/9/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> aren't you s'posed to be finishing what you started?


yes I am...s'posed to be finishing what I started - that's true

apols for the arse about posting but was on the phone

have spoken with husky, not really good timing for either of us. I'll get some prices today, if someone wants to provide a piece of equipment for the case-swap then I would do my best to get it. Just putting it out there really as it's all gonna go very soon.


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## Mardoo (15/9/17)

Where is all that stuff being sold?


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## malt junkie (15/9/17)

Mardoo said:


> Where is all that stuff being sold?


If you want it, I can hitch up a trailer and bring down for the BB, not all of it mind you, it's a trailer not an 18 wheeler!


----------



## homebrewnewb (15/9/17)

droid said:


> yes I am...s'posed to be finishing what I started - that's true
> 
> apols for the arse about posting but was on the phone
> 
> have spoken with husky, not really good timing for either of us. I'll get some prices today, if someone wants to provide a piece of equipment for the case-swap then I would do my best to get it. Just putting it out there really as it's all gonna go very soon.


good luck to your wallet sir!


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## Mardoo (15/9/17)

malt junkie said:


> If you want it, I can hitch up a trailer and bring down for the BB, not all of it mind you, it's a trailer not an 18 wheeler!



I reckon one of those load platforms would go alright with the right engine and wheels. 

Thanks, but not now. I'm just looking for a honkin' big kettle. 200l or so.


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## malt junkie (15/9/17)

Mardoo said:


> I reckon one of those load platforms would go alright with the right engine and wheels.
> 
> Thanks, but not now. I'm just looking for a honkin' big kettle. 200l or so.


I've got that sort of project on the back burner, if something pops up I'll grab it. The keezer and BB have kept me pretty busy, and we may be moving closer to Melbourne in 6months (SWMBO's work). My plan was twin reasonable size mash tuns so I could get greater use, multiple brews at the same time or smaller batch sizes and even reiterate fairly easily. But there is soooo much gear in the shed!I really need to consolidate and sell off some excess.


----------



## droid (15/9/17)

Mardoo said:


> Where is all that stuff being sold?


it's a local commercial food manufacturing operation, it's a feckin massive site


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## Nullnvoid (15/9/17)

I think we need one of those platforms for the height challenged amongst us to be able to see into the bfk. 

What do you think grumpypaul?


----------



## malt junkie (15/9/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> I think we need one of those platforms for the height challenged amongst us to be able to see into the bfk.
> 
> What do you think grumpypaul?


Not fair on GP, but when we start hopping by the box a platform would certainly be handy.


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## Nullnvoid (15/9/17)

I'm also height challenged and would benefit from said platform 

I just assumed stuff was in the kettle


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## GrumpyPaul (15/9/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> I'm also height challenged



But you have about 6inches of afro to your advantage


----------



## Hermies (15/9/17)

GrumpyPaul said:


> But you have about 6inches of afro to your advantage


Thats why he is taller than you . Unlike I have no hair and am taller than the both of you


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## droid (16/9/17)

what would be a better platform?


the long lower one with the guard and steps either end allowing a bunch of people to stand on but maybe not a good fit around the gear

one of the taller ones with only a couple of people on it at one time
I didn't get there yesterday for pricing but should be able to text the guy with pics for pricing, shall do that Monday when we have some staff so I can get 5 minutes peace


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## droid (16/9/17)

Found a couple more pics on the phone
the thing with the plastic wrapped around it is some sort of hopper, as soon as he said that I asked if they had any mills but sadly no


----------



## idzy (16/9/17)

I hate to think why you are taking photos of those IBCs when we are talking about no-chill...


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## Mardoo (16/9/17)

I SO want to do a 1000L no-chill! Reckon one of those couldn't handle it though. And tipping it on its side would be hard.


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## droid (18/9/17)

I may have low balled myself out of the equation. I thought Italians loved to haggle, not this fella, reckons I need 3x what I offered for a bunch of stuff, think he's being a bit of a spanker. Now if I go back I lose, oh well better sit tight and wait it out.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (18/10/17)

If we had 76A I’d have our pumping situation sorted...


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## malt junkie (4/12/17)

Mardoo is getting on the hex situation and Im looking at installing those with control and pumps in this.










The base will be getting a respray over chrissy. The kegs are what are going to be used for hexes. Last pic plenty of space for pumps and control box. Inlets and outlets to the tuns will be off the outside wall. A total of upto 4 power inlets, but able to run on just 2.


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## MartinOC (4/12/17)

Without understanding the engineering involved, this seems like WAAAAYYY OTT for the required application.

KISS is the best principle & what about transportability??


----------



## eldertaco (4/12/17)

Holy shit, this looks serious in here. Will have to pull my finger out and get in on the next one! Carry on...


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## malt junkie (4/12/17)

MartinOC said:


> Without understanding the engineering involved, this seems like WAAAAYYY OTT for the required application.
> 
> KISS is the best principle & what about transportability??


It has wheels, I have trailer or 4x4, and considering the recent expansion of the system, a little bit of head room is built in. Keep in mind the 6 "P's". And in essences simpler than cables and hoses going every where to different hexes with temp probes falling out and hexes boiling and expensive pumps on the ground.

TRUST ME


----------



## TheWiggman (5/12/17)

May I suggest that kegs are a complete pain in the arse to fit heat exchangers to? Refer hilarity: One of my first posts
If you are still game I advise cutting the tops of the kegs off completely and having a reaaaaaaaally good think about how you're going to install the heating elements, as I'm guessing they will be typical long elements that rise vertically from the base. Because they stick up there's less tolerance for any water loss unless we elect to get something like Nev's HERMS elements. Note too that it will be good idea to have a mount so the base of the junction box is not supporting the weight of the keg. Actually now that I think of it that's probably quite doable. Just make sure you don't run low on water or you'll burn out the tip of the element.
While you're following the KISS principle, make sure you install some super-impressive controller like Mr Wibble's Arduino with a simple encoder for control. Some mild modifications to the programming would easily allow LCD control with step mashing on a small panel on the top of the... BBQ.


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## malt junkie (5/12/17)

I believe cutting the top off the kegs is the plan so total volume will be down to length of elements/ coverage of coil. Coils may well be custom?? Not sure where Mardoo is going. As for the base for these to sit on I'll see what Mardoo does with the hex and we'll mount them appropriately. Control will be 2x Brewmaniacex, so very similar to brauduino but with wifi capability with web interface (will have hard wired buttons and LCD) and ability to upload from beersmith. So simply setup to mash, upload recipe, hit go(as far as control goes anyway).


----------



## technobabble66 (5/12/17)

I think this was discussed earlier, but is electricity definite the best way to go with the HERMS?
Or rather, is there any value looking at a combined electricity + gas setup?

What i was thinking is that to maintain temp, electricity seems definitely best. But to aid ramping times, could it be worthwhile looking at a gas-fired HERMS unit to use solely when we're trying to ramp across the major temps steps? 
I was just thinking that given we already have the huge burner set-up of the BFK, could we devise (ie: basically husky would need to be keen enough to build it) a second vessel, say a shallow 100-200L vessel, with the heat exchanger sitting in the heated water. When we're ramping, swap hoses to that. Once we've hit temp, swap to temp-controlled electrical HERMS coils and maintain the step until the next ramp.

I was thinking it means we might circumvent some of the problem with getting enough power through the HERMS unit(s) to ramp quickly enough.


----------



## malt junkie (5/12/17)

technobabble66 said:


> I think this was discussed earlier, but is electricity definite the best way to go with the HERMS?
> Or rather, is there any value looking at a combined electricity + gas setup?
> 
> What i was thinking is that to maintain temp, electricity seems definitely best. But to aid ramping times, could it be worthwhile looking at a gas-fired HERMS unit to use solely when we're trying to ramp across the major temps steps?
> ...


we wouldn't need to build anything specific just use a 1-200l kettle on a burner recirculated through a cfc, with wort passing through the other side your output temp manually adjusted with flow control.


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## technobabble66 (5/12/17)

Ok. Just wasn't sure if a regular 100-200L pot was big enough to take advantage of the 2 side-by-side burners.


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## malt junkie (5/12/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Ok. Just wasn't sure if a regular 100-200L pot was big enough to take advantage of the 2 side-by-side burners.


to ramp you'd only need a single burner, if you had a 2hl pot @85c with burner going we'd stick the mash before striping the heat bellow target, it's all about heat exchange, the only way that happens instantly is with steam.


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## husky (5/12/17)

technobabble66 said:


> I think this was discussed earlier, but is electricity definite the best way to go with the HERMS?
> Or rather, is there any value looking at a combined electricity + gas setup?
> 
> What i was thinking is that to maintain temp, electricity seems definitely best. But to aid ramping times, could it be worthwhile looking at a gas-fired HERMS unit to use solely when we're trying to ramp across the major temps steps?
> ...



Have started building said vessel, wide tank with one of its own BFK burners. Just need time, $$ and motivation to finish as it needs a custom coil. It's on the long term project list once the 2HL is complete.


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## laxation (5/12/17)

how much does it cost? crowd-source?


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## malt junkie (5/12/17)

I don't know that a coil IN a really big pot is the best approach, particularly with a large body of residual heat it would be real easy to over shoot your out put temp, while still being well under on the input temp. I know the yanks do gas herms and even rims on smaller scale but the flow rate VS heat bank mean heat can be stripped quite quickly and any over shoot can be recovered from . With a coil in a big (2HL+) pot, any over shoot would continue for a good period. Remember the enzymes we are targeting with temperature are in the wort not just the mash tun.
Believe me I'm all for more power, I was a motorcyclist who lived by the moto "too much power is barely enough" and still some how survived. In this case having a big bank of power when we need it is great but like a motor bike we need to control it's delivery. Hence the CCFC as HX idea; flow of both wort and heat can be adjusted. Or we could build a flash boiler and ramp those puppies with steam but that shit scares me.

ED#2 any of you crazy bastards who go googling flash boiler and then decide to build one, and then either burn or injure themselves or others note: I have here by warned you of said risks and my advice would be to instead be paitient like the rest of us and wait for your wort to boil.


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## technobabble66 (6/12/17)

I understand your point and concur, @malt junkie. 
We need to be able to control the heat input into the wort stream. So using a Counter Flow setup would definitely be a better concept. 
Also we might be able to leverage the BFK &/or its burners by building up a really big reserve of heat (ie: really large volume of hot water) prior to needing it, ready to run thru the CF system at the appropriate time. 

Do you think it best to rig up a tube CF system, or look at a plate system? Those Dudadiesel guys have some seriously impressive HEX plate stacks. Obviously we'd need to ensure the grain bed is settled prior to running it through the plates. 

Also, is it better to look at a single big HEX or a few parallel smaller HEXs?


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## malt junkie (6/12/17)

I like these, so the extra c wasn't a mistake; convoluted counter flow chiller, so the inner tube has twisted ridges that create turbulence, a really chunky one would be awesome, could probably be fabed straight 5 or 6 lengths of say 1m stacked and joined in a zig zag. 3/4 inner tube and inch outer, even in copper. Though Alibaba have some bigger coiled ones that may be worth a look, but as always postage will be the killer.
BTW I hate plate chillers to many tight hard unseen places for grainy bits to stick and hide.

Ed: Link to the updated fancy pance version


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## droid (6/12/17)

I'm happy to lend one of the 200ltr stainless drums as a HERMS vessel, We might be able to do something for the winter swap with it depending on Husky.

At present it can be Gas fired with a stand underneath on a frame (with an ignitor) - just needs the big coil or a couple of smaller coils and an appropriate pump. We would have to monitor the ramping but I like having some human input on recirc mashing and ramping aka fun brewing. Gas HERMS is a little hit and miss but transportable and only needs a pump. Electric (200ltr) is much more controlled but would require more power than my household could produce I think.

Maybe we can have a bush HERMS and a Power HERMS, I'm still keen on building something of the gas variety anywho, just getting by with power on a 100ltr system let alone 1k

I can feel the *HERMS WARS *coming on


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## Whiteferret (6/12/17)

Have a coil that drops into the gas fired HLT that is supplying the sparge water. As long as the burner can ramp the HLT to the next step temp while the previous step is resting.


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## malt junkie (6/12/17)

droid said:


> I can feel the *HERMS WARS *coming on


would certainly be interesting on the ramping side, and the flash boiler would work 60c-steam but the snap crackle pop noises are unnerving, and live steam and alcohol don't mix. Also fab would have to be tig,
To explain this





sits inside a stove pipe/flue with a jet burner at the bottom, water is passed(in this case the input is the center) through those tiny tubes and comes out the other end, temperature is controlled by follow rates(both gas and water).









Note with these sorts of things the output HAS to be open or your creating back pressure beyond what the unit will cope with and therefore steam explosion and resulting injuries/death. But like most dangerous toys; very powerful, also very efficient with numbers well above standard direct fire.


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## TheWiggman (6/12/17)

technobabble66 said:


> I think this was discussed earlier, but is electricity definite the best way to go with the HERMS?



Of course it is heathen, Benjamin Franklin didn't spend his life's work studying probably the most significant form of energy to shape modern life only to have it pushed aside in favour of simply 'burning' something that's been sitting in the ground for millennia. Disregarding how we actually generate said electricity in this country.
I like electricity because -
a. It's easy to control
b. You don't run out of bottles of it
c. Quiet
d. Measurably consistent (i.e. 3.6kW = 3.6kW of power) and doesn't get affected by wind
e. Unlikely to burn your house down or explode

Obvious big negatives of electricity is you need the power supply available / suitable circuits and adequate electricity isn't portable. 
Generally speaking 10A / 2400W is good for 25 litres comfortably. I'm confident 40 litres would boil with 10A albeit not well. 2 x 2400W elements per Idzy esky has managed to ramp the mash in the past, not rapidly but been up to the task. I think if each HERMS vessel had at least 2 x 2400W elements we'd get reasonable performance and with enough extension cords most homes could cater.


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## husky (6/12/17)

Whiteferret said:


> Have a coil that drops into the gas fired HLT that is supplying the sparge water. As long as the burner can ramp the HLT to the next step temp while the previous step is resting.



You just gave me an idea. The tank temperature could just be set to 80 deg C and a servo driven arm that raises and lowers the coil to achieve the temperature setpoint. Raise the coil for the lower temp steps and lower for stepping up. The projects are endless!


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## malt junkie (6/12/17)

husky said:


> You just gave me an idea. The tank temperature could just be set to 80 deg C and a servo driven arm that raises and lowers the coil to achieve the temperature setpoint. Raise the coil for the lower temp steps and lower for stepping up. The projects are endless!


Now thats some outside of the box thinking!, are you going to control the burner with solenoid valves?


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## Mardoo (6/12/17)

Let’s build a robot! Oh, wait…


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## Mardoo (6/12/17)

I really like the idea of a gas-fired HEX. I’ve been assuming an electric build simply because that’s what I know how to build. Gas removes the issues around residential power limitations and bush-brews. I think being able to take the swaps bush is an awesome idea. Then Idzy’s buckets would see some use for hauling water. We’d need a generator for pumps if we wanted to be free from powered campsites. 

I’m a bit less stoked about ideas like using CFC’s or other setups, merely because, AFAIK none of us have tried it. I’m happy to nut out that kind of stuff on a home system, but not on a 700L brew. Also, a number of those solutions require 2 pumps per HEX. I see a huge advantage here in sticking with what we know. 

So what are the purposes, needs and possibilities for a new HEX build for the swap system? We don’t need to get so basic as temperature control - I think we can assume those sorts of things. Copy and add:

PURPOSES
1. Ability to ramp temp during mash, as opposed to maintaining temp on a single mash step. 

NEEDS
1. If electric, elements are added in multiples of 2400 watts

POSSIBILITIES
1. If we have 2 HEX’s we can run different temps on each mashtun. We’ve used this to our advantage before.


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## husky (6/12/17)

malt junkie said:


> Now thats some outside of the box thinking!, are you going to control the burner with solenoid valves?



Yes, I'm not a fan of gas, love my electric setup on my 20L but for 700L my gut says gas and I was planning to use a solenoid valve to regulate gas pressure to maintain temp anyways. I'm also really keen to do some bush brews so either gas or the more primitive fire options are the go.


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## malt junkie (6/12/17)

PURPOSES
1. Ability to ramp temp during mash, as opposed to maintaining temp on a single mash step.

NEEDS
1. If electric, elements are added in multiples of 2400 watts
2. Simplicity of actuation (we don't want a mechanical breakdown screwing brewday)

POSSIBILITIES
1. If we have 2 HEX’s we can run different temps on each mashtun. We’ve used this to our advantage before.
2. (and I know the CFC ain't a popular choice) Hlt (or instant HWS) recirc through coil in the tun. simple and easy! ED: this is while using standard herms to maintain so just a power boost.


@Mardoo i see your scared of steam too


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## MartinOC (6/12/17)

Mardoo, how's that ex-MR keg HEX project coming? I think that would be a nice, simple, compact solution to all the discussions/dilemmas/requirements.


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## Mardoo (6/12/17)

MartinOC said:


> Mardoo, how's that ex-MR keg HEX project coming? I think that would be a nice, simple, compact solution to all the discussions/dilemmas/requirements.


It's likely I'll go with the shorter, squat 19L Firestone's MaltJunkie has, simply because it will involve less faffing about to fit two elements in them. If we're going with an electric HEX, that'll be the easiest solution for sure. I'll drop your MR back round to you. Still may use the coil.

The little poll above arose largely because Nullnvoid has offered to sell me his monster SS coil he posted in the HERMS Coil thread he started, and that got a lot of thinking going, as well as an ongoing PM and conversation MaltJunkie and I have been having about the HEX build. A HEX built around Nully's coil would likely work well to run both mashtuns with 4 x 2400w or 3600w elements, but the pumping demand would be high in that scenario. Another option is to build one 19L HEX for each of the big mashtuns, each with 2 x 2400w or 3600w elements.

However, when someone raised the gas-fired HEX option, it seemed a good thing to consider, simply because not everyone lives in a place that has enough amperage on single or separate circuits to handle the needs of 9600w of elements, ideally more. I have the plans for the Brutus 10 system which explain how to set up a solenoid controlled gas heat exchanger. A gas-fired HEX, although a learning curve at first, appears to actually be the simplest solution in the long run.

I really hope folks can contribute to the needs list. It will help work out final decisions about build so we can get this thing done by the March RIS Collab brew.


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## malt junkie (6/12/17)

Bush brews sound good too!


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