# My First Ag (biab) And Also My First Ever Brew!



## kyleg (1/6/11)

hi everyone i'm a new brewer, and have been looking into brewing for about the last 3 months, slowly acquiring my equipment and knowledge. after a bit of research i decided to skip the extract brews and jump straight into AG. i've been looking over this forum a bit over the last few months, but this is my first post. I am getting ready for my very first brew, which is going to be an AG BIAB. I've read through John Palmers "How to Brew", and have watched quite a few tutorials on youtube for BIAB, so i feel fairly confident I can pull it off. I just wanted to run my first brew by everyone and see if there is anything that i'm missing. all help much appreciated!

my equipment:

80L Aluminium StockPot, fitted with mashmaster weldeless thermometer.
BIAB Bag
Hop Sock
Scales
30L Fermenter w/ Airlock and Spigot
Stirring Spoon
Hydrometer
Bottle Brush
Nappisan (For Cleaning)
soon to purchase a sanitizer.. any suggestions?
Bottles
Capper
Caps
Easy Bottler
Bottling Bucket
still need to get hosing and possibly a siphon? (any suggestions)


Heating Method My plan is to do my brew on the gas stovetop. I will probably do a test boil very soon to see how long it takes to reach the boil.

Chill method: My 80L pot is quite large, my plan is to buy a big bucket that the pot will fit in from bunnings and chill with an ice bath.

Fermentation: I have a wine fridge which my fermenter will easily fit in, and it can keep a temperature between 8-24 degrees roughly (adjustable)
would there be any problem with fermenting it in the fridge?

Recipe im planning on using is from John Palmer's book and is an Amber Ale.

I'm not too sure on how much water to start with if i am hoping for 5 gallons (19L i think).

Rough Plan: Raise water temp to 67degrees, mix in the grain slowly avoiding clumps, time mash for 60 minutes, stirring every now and then slowly avoiding aeration, pull grain bag out and let drip til my arms give, put bag into bottling bucket to continue dripping and at that back in during the boil. Raise temp to Boiling and boil for 60 minutes with hop additions. Prepare Ice Bath during boil. When boil is finished add to ice bath, stirring the wort carefully. (should i remove hops before chilling?), once chilled to fermenting temperature i will pour wort from pot through a sanitized strainer into my fermenter, then back and fourth a few times to aerate. then add yeast that i hydrated earlier, pop the lid on and pop it in the fridge to ferment.

when do i take samples for hydrometer readings? before boil and after boil or after fermentation?

bottling day:

mix my priming solution into sanitized bottling bucket carefully, then using gravity and hosing connected to the spigot on my fermenter, drain the beer from fermenter slowly avoiding aeration into bottling bucket, then carefully mix priming solution in by stirring. now from the bottling bucket into the bottles, i can either siphon from bottling bucket with easy bottler attached (don't know what size siphon i'll need for this bottling attachment to fit?) or if i have a spigot on my bottling bucket i could connect hosing again and bottling attachment if it fits? this is where im a bit unsure.

thats it, i think.

if you have read this, thank you. and please help me fill in the gaps and correct mistakes so this brew tastes brilliant because it's been a long time coming and im bloody thirsty!

Kyle


----------



## keifer33 (1/6/11)

There is alot of questions there so will attempt to answer a few.

As far as sanitiser goes either Starsan or Idophor.

Chilling could be done as per the method you state but if you do a big batch the water will just warm up and not cool it down to pitching temps. Search 'no chill' on the forums as this is a very popular method which basically is draining/siphoning off the hot wort into jerry cans and letting it cool naturally over a day or so.

Getting the liquid out of the pot could be done via a weldless ball valve or a siphon of sorts. If you use a siphon the auto siphon tip and some silicone hose from Gryphon Brewing works a treat - http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/index.php

As you are doing BIAB it would be advisable to join - http://www.biabrewer.info/ . From there they have a handy calculator which will help get your started with mash volumes and boil volumes based on some averages which I have found to be very close.

Also post up your location in your profile and people might be able to recommend brew clubs/demo's


----------



## kelbygreen (1/6/11)

wow talk about jumping in the deep end. I would get beersmith or promash and play around with them put all your gear in there and then it will calculate alot you are asking. I wouldnt worry about kettle loss and I would do a 21lt batch not a 19lt batch. so kettle loss set to 0 batch size is 21lts but you will expect prob 2 lts of trub so set the batch size to 23lts. Id set the efficiency to about 67% for your first brew. Well maybe 70% as you doing a full boil I only do 20lt boils. Your better off with a stronger beer then a weaker one you can find your efficiency after the boil you can also roughly guess it before the boil if you know exactly the lts in the pre boiled wort. 

The stove top may take ages so best to do a trial. for the cooling remember the pots 100 deg so if your using plastic tub maybe put a tile or something to sit the pot on so it wont melt the plastic. 

The rest looks ok but with the temps you want 67 mash temp it will prob be like 78 water temp before grains are added but the brewing software will work that out for you. I wouldnt bother stiring when mashing as you got a thin mash anyway. I would pull the grain bag out heat the wort to 80deg put the bag back in and do a mash out. leave it for 10 mins then drain the bag.

for the removal of the hops yes you can do that but if it has 0 min hops then they will be best left till its cooled you can just throw them straight in the pot and take the sock out. with the strainer I wouldnt as you need to remove the trub. if you can put the ice bath on a bench put the pot in that add whirfloc 10mins in the boil then cool in the bath for 10 mins whirlpool and leave it till its cool. siphon off the clear wort and leave as much trub as you can behind (this has been allowed in the batch size above the 2lts of trub) if you get more or less then adjust the batch size to suit the trub loss.

Edit: if the stove top is no good get a 4 ring burner from a camping store a 3 ring will prob do but if you want to do doubles later and add a mash tun and keep the 80lt just for a kettle then a 4 ring should be enough.


----------



## brett mccluskey (1/6/11)

Congrats on going AG first time out :icon_cheers: A couple of suggestions,though i'm sure others will have a few more.When heat your mash water ,make sure it's a few degrees over your desired mash temp,the temp will drop when you add the grains,each system is slightly different,mine drops 4/5 degrees.Get something to sit on top of your 80L pot to sit your bag on and drain.I use a clean oven rack.Buy a long mash paddle and use it to stir/aerate the wort after transfer,much easier than pouring from container to container IMO .Good luck,you seem to have all the equipment,now gain the knowledge,and remember...don't panic,relax,etc :beer: And put a tap on your bottling bucket,much,much easier :chug:


----------



## pimpsqueak (1/6/11)

The first thing that strikes me here is the size of your pot for your batch size.
I had an 80L pot that provided a few hiccups... 
1: Pretty much impossible to get an effective whirlpool going in wort which is that shallow. I find it much easier in my new 50L pot.
2: fitting the bag to the pot was quite an exercise. It only just had enough give to shoehorn it on and even then, it was tapered (Craftbrewer one) and didn't fill the whole pot.

+1 for a brewing program of some sort. I use Beersmith and Brewmate.
Beersmith has a free trial. Brewmate is free, period.

Some sort of large potato masher/paint plunger type thing to pump the hell out of your grist with will be invaluable.

For your first BIAB you should go for a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil, in order to get a a shot at a good efficiency. You might want to have a look through HERE for really good info on your first BIAB.

As for water volumes and strike temps, just plug your batch size (I'd gun for 23L in your 30L fermenter) ingredients etc into Brewmate and it will calculate your volumes and temps for you.

Welcome to BIAB. Wish I had gotten into it earlier too...


----------



## Mayor of Mildura (1/6/11)

Hi mate

good work skipping the kits. You're not missing out on much.

I use starsan for a sanitizer. it hasn't let me down yet. 

wow 80l pot on the stove. that's awesome. i used to use a 19l pot and thought that was big. 

I'd keep things simple. i.e. just bring your strike water up to temp and dump the grain in there and mix around... don't mix it round during the mash. lift bag. drain. bring to boil. add hops. chill? (i used to put my pot in the sink not sure how you'll go with the big pot. I no chill now) then chuck into fermenter and sprinkle yeast on top. 

Bottling plan sounds good. Just put the bottling wand into the tap. forget about siphons and hoses and stuff.

Good luck with it and i want to see photos!!!


----------



## alizzan (1/6/11)

Mad props to you for going to AG first off. After tasting the difference between K&K/Extract and AG beers, I kind of wish I had gone AG first. I agree with the previous suggestions, however I use Brewmate which I have found to be very handy. Please do a write up after your first batch, and let us know how it goes. Also, I can only assume you've checked out NickJD's threads here and here. If not, most definitely worth a read. They're the main thing that got me into AG BIAB.


----------



## ekul (1/6/11)

The only thing you are going to miss out on with your total skipping of kits and extract brewing is the amazement of how much better ag tastes! Props to you!

If i were you i'd investigate a better heating source. I use a 32 jet mongolian gas burner (which is probably too big for an 80L pot) but plenty of blokes use electricity.

The other piece of equipmet i would be looking at is a refractometer. Does the same job as a hydrometer but its so much quicker.

Also, without a proper chiller you should investigate nochill. Its really cheap ( i use a siphon and a 20L cube) and if you want to get a chiller later you can. If you wanted to do it real cheap dodgy bros style you could just tranfer carefully to your fermenter and seal it up and let it cool slowly in there. 2M of silicon tubing from craftbrewer is a great investment. I bought some ages ago and haven't even bothered to fit a tap. A tap would make wort transfer easier but i haven't got around to it yet.

Its pretty hard to stuff up an ag brew, so your first batch is going to be very drinakable. With all the knowledge that is available i'm not sure why more people don't start with ag. Good luck!


----------



## kelbygreen (1/6/11)

alllizzan He is doing a full volume BIAB nicks threads are maxi BIAB or high gravity BIAB. he is in fact adding all the mash and sparge water in one hit. So for example you plug into beersmith 23 lts knock out they might say you need to prepare 32lts of water 15lts for the mash and mash out and 8.5 lts for each batch sparge. so you get your grain loss and boil loss out of that with 2 lts to spare to make 21lt brew in fermenter which I find Ideal for a keg. 

Yeah brewmate seems alright but only really tried it once and with always using beersmith I was more in tune with that and with both you get slightly different brew day reports, I have tailored my brew day to work with what beersmith says so if I used brewmate Id have to start again not that that would take long but more the fact of reworking stuff out. So really pick a program and just use that. 

toper one is right, if you screw up and something goes wrong dont worry you still make beer. Just learn from it and grow from there. My first AG BIAB I use a esky not a pot as I like to mash out. Any way first time, mash in was alright 1 deg off top it up with hot water ( oh yeah when you mash in maybe add 1-2lts less then what you need and have 2lts of boiling and 2lts of cold water on hand, if the temps to high or to low you can quickly add boiling or cold water to make the temp up. If you go shit its 2 deg under and gotto put the kettle on to make up some boiling water you are loosing time. so boil the coffee kettle put 2 lts in something and have it handy you will thank me later  ) any way back to the story haha. got right mash temp pushed the foam ontop of the mash put the lid on the esky but with the voile hanging out and left it on the concrete. Come back 30 mins later to get a beer, WTF voile is at the door way of the shed??? lids off the esky the grains in the mash water and a dog cowering in a corner when I start yelling profanity. Ok now I find out dogs like grain so the mongrel has grabbed the voile pulled it out of the esky and then thought he was king shit till he almost tasted his balls when my foot hit his arse lol. Ok all is not lost wash the bag put it in the pot pour the liquid in the pot and strain it with the bag. It was low efficiency and it fermented out to almost 1.000 lol but I made beer and it wasnt to bad so I learnt from there. 

I now mash on the bench and fold the voile inside the esky lol


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery (1/6/11)

+ 1 All the above. Get Brewmate software - its free with BIAB support. Get an ezisphon and 2 m hose from Gryphon Brewing. I have a 50L pot and no tap. I use the siphon to get the hot wort into the cube for no chilling and when you start kegging <_< you can use it for tranfering your fermented beer. Also get a spray bottle for your starsan - spray the crap out of everything .....
BIAB is brilliant ... 
Cheers
BBB


----------



## dr K (1/6/11)

curiosity really
how much final wort (say 1050) can you get out of an 80 litre biab setup?
K


----------



## Housecat (1/6/11)

dr K said:


> curiosity really
> how much final wort (say 1050) can you get out of an 80 litre biab setup?
> K



I BIAB in an 80L keggle and do double batches (46L) no problems and reckon I could squeeze a triple out of it if I topped it off with a bit of water just prior to the boil. Just a matter of handling 15KG + of wet grain!

Back to the OP, 

Don't worry too much about pre boil aeration and oxidation, it pretty much won't happen as you're going to boil it anyway. 
Aerate it as much as you want when it is time to pitch as the yeasties love the extra O2 and will use it up.

_*However*_, when it is time to bottle, don't splash your beer around as this is the time that you will really affect it with oxidation.

HC

edit: spoolink


----------



## pimpsqueak (1/6/11)

Well, I had great success with Brewmate during my last BIAB. I hit the figures dead on. So if I just up the numbers... 49L of 1.050 into the fermenter gives me a total mash volume of 78L and a 60 min boil.


----------



## dr K (2/6/11)

> I BIAB and do double batches (46L) no problems and reckon I could squeeze a triple out of it if I topped it off with a bit of water just prior to the boil. Just a matter of handling 15KG + of wet grain!


Your reply indicates you use use an 80 litre vessel (just curious) and BTW this does relate to OP.
I, of course, do not BIAB but I am familiar with it and as I understand its a sort of full volume brewing technique, that's to say you put all your brewing water both mash and sparge in a single vessel, enclose the grain in a bag, mash, drain rather than sparge then boil.
I understand, unless its changed that the liquor to grain ratio is about 7:1 (which equates BTW with trad mash/sparge process)
You for that double batch in an 80 litre pot add 10kg of grain (with a volume somewhat more than 10 litres ) to 70 litres of sparge/mash liquor....please how do you do it???
K


----------



## pimpsqueak (2/6/11)

dr K said:


> Your reply indicates you use use an 80 litre vessel (just curious) and BTW this does relate to OP.
> I, of course, do not BIAB but I am familiar with it and as I understand its a sort of full volume brewing technique, that's to say you put all your brewing water both mash and sparge in a single vessel, enclose the grain in a bag, mash, drain rather than sparge then boil.
> I understand, unless its changed that the liquor to grain ratio is about 7:1 (which equates BTW with trad mash/sparge process)
> You for that double batch in an 80 litre pot add 10kg of grain (with a volume somewhat more than 10 litres ) to 70 litres of sparge/mash liquor....please how do you do it???
> K



I'm just giving you the figures straight from Brewmate. I used to have an 80L pot but I swapped for a 50L as I only do single batches.

Total Grain: 10.869kg
Water/Grain ratio: 6.23
Strike Water (L): 67.75
Total mash volume: 78.62L
Pre-boil volume: 59.6L

Not that I would even contemplate pulling the bag with 11kg of wet grain in it. Must be around 17-18kg and I brew on the kitchen bench, so the lift starts at chest height :blink: screw that.

You're right about the full volume brewing technique. All your water goes in right from the start.
I know some people try variations on sparging in a separate vessel/bucket, but I hit 76% eff in my last BIAB with only the initial strike water. Why over-complicate a process that was born from simplicity I say


----------



## mfeighan (2/6/11)

i got a 60L batch (minus trub etc) biab in a robinox 70L, just topped up after hot break to close to the brim, this one i left in the pot over night to cool down, the trub compacted quite well and i was supprised with how much less i lost due to trub

for temps, i had an old doonah (sp?) and just chucked it over the top never lost more than .5 deg

good luck bro i was in a similar boat only 4 k&k's till i decided to take the plunge to AG and havent turned back 

if ur in perth i have one of them SS auto siphon thingos lying around that i dont need anymore



Housecat said:


> I BIAB in an 80L keggle and do double batches (46L) no problems and reckon I could squeeze a triple out of it if I topped it off with a bit of water just prior to the boil. Just a matter of handling 15KG + of wet grain!
> 
> Back to the OP,
> 
> ...


----------



## Thirsty Boy (2/6/11)

dr K said:


> Your reply indicates you use use an 80 litre vessel (just curious) and BTW this does relate to OP.
> I, of course, do not BIAB but I am familiar with it and as I understand its a sort of full volume brewing technique, that's to say you put all your brewing water both mash and sparge in a single vessel, enclose the grain in a bag, mash, drain rather than sparge then boil.
> I understand, unless its changed that the liquor to grain ratio is about 7:1 (which equates BTW with trad mash/sparge process)
> You for that double batch in an 80 litre pot add 10kg of grain (with a volume somewhat more than 10 litres ) to 70 litres of sparge/mash liquor....please how do you do it???
> K



K - the problem here is a paradigm change. You and most other brewers (me included when i brew on my normal system) consider L:G ratio to be a target. So you talk about the L:G ratio of BIAB being about 7, as though thats something that you would try to aim for... but that not how it works. L:G ratio in BIAB is simply a result... it something that you refer to as "it was" if someone asks, but which you basically never think of in an "it will be" type fashion.

You develop your recipes pretty much around your pre-boil volume, I use promash. here's how i would do it.

a double batch of german pilsner (46L into the fermenter)

- I know that to get my 46L of trub free wort I am probably going to need to finish my boil with 50L of wort, so into
pro-mash goes a batch size of 50L. 
- I get 75% mash/lauter efficiency, so I will need 10.45kg of pilsner malt to make 50L @ 1.050
- I always boil for 90 mins and will lose 3.3L per hour (lower than ideal for this sized boil I know) so I want to start my boil with 54.95L. Lets call it 55L.
- I lose about 0.6L of liquid to grain absorbtion for every kg of grain I start with, so I will lose 0.6 x 10.45 = 6.25L of liquid to grain and thus need to add that much extra at teh start to get my desired volumes.
- So the amount of water I put in at the start will be my 55L pre-boil volume + 6.25L = 61.25L
- Promash tells me that adding 10.45L of grain to 61.25L of water will give me a total mash volume of 68.23L (each KG of grain adds about .65L to the volume once it is stirred in, the volume occupied by a kg of grist includes air spaces, which become water spaces once it is mixed into a mash)

So - my brew is 10.45kg of Grain + 61.25L of water for a total maximum volume of 68.23L in the pot..... and it just so happens that the L:G turns out to be 5.86.

If I wanted a triple batch.... I would go through the same process and conclude that I either need a bigger pot, or that I would need to use one of the sparge/top-up variations of BIAB to pull it off.

*To the OP*, well done, good luck.

Be careful of.....

Your Mashmaster themometer - things sticking into BIAB pots are not the best option as they just give you a place for the bag to get caught and tear

The idea of picking up and moving a great big pot of boiling wort from the top of your stove to some big arsed bucket of ice water to cool it down. You slip on a wet spot in the kitchen, you wear 25L+ of boiling sugar water and well.... horrible injuries and maybe death. You might think the risk is small, but the consquences are pretty damn drastic. I personally wouldn't even consider doing it.

TB


----------



## katzke (2/6/11)

Only thing I can add is make sure the bag does not rest on the bottom of the kettle. I use a round thing made to cool cookies or cakes. Pull it out just before the boil.


----------



## felten (2/6/11)

I'd look at getting a stainless racking cane and a few metres of silicon hose and no-chilling, instead of trying to pour the hopefully chilled wort out of the kettle.

That way you can get a whirlpool going and leave all the trub and crap behind in the kettle, because you end up with a lot of it with BIAB.

You don't have to stir for the full 60-90mins while mashing. After you dough in you can wrap the pot up in something warm and that should keep the temp stable while it does it's thing.


----------



## kyleg (2/6/11)

felten said:


> I'd look at getting a stainless racking cane and a few metres of silicon hose and no-chilling, instead of trying to pour the hopefully chilled wort out of the kettle.
> 
> That way you can get a whirlpool going and leave all the trub and crap behind in the kettle, because you end up with a lot of it with BIAB.
> 
> You don't have to stir for the full 60-90mins while mashing. After you dough in you can wrap the pot up in something warm and that should keep the temp stable while it does it's thing.



could i use the above mentioned 'ezysiphon' for this?


----------



## kyleg (2/6/11)

thanks for all the feedback people!

this afternoon i did a test boil. 25L so by the sounds of things i'll need more when i brew. but 25L took 31 minutes to get from 20 degrees to 70 degrees, and then a further 24 minutes to reach boiling temperature. Do these times sound ok? I think i will look at getting a 4 ring burner in the future.

one thing i noticed, was how heavy the pot was with 25L of just water. so i think as thirstyboy said, this could be quite dangerous, so i will look into a no chill. one other method of chilling i saw somewhere i think was to clean, sanitize and fill a few 2L soda/milk bottles with boiled water, then put them in the freezer and drop them into the wort. not sure how effective this will be though.

i am located in perth, and have updated my profile now. i will get a eazy siphon and some tubing from gryphon homebrew. does anyone know if there is an actual store i can go to or is it only an online store? i want to buy my last few bits and pieces and my grain, hops and yeast, and aim to brew either monday or tuesday. so im not sure if i order it tonight(thursday) it will come in time. if not i will just have to put it off until the following week.

with regards to the mashmaster, i have already installed it, so i guess i'll have to look for something to plug the 1/2inch hole. 

i'll also look at putting a cake tray or something on the bottom to support the bag, but will the metal legs of the tray scratch the base of my pot leaving space for bacteria?

i will look into getting brewmate, sounds very handy.

haven't had time to read through everything properly, but will do asap. thanks again! will definately post an update post-brew day.


----------



## ekul (2/6/11)

katzke said:


> Only thing I can add is make sure the bag does not rest on the bottom of the kettle. I use a round thing made to cool cookies or cakes. Pull it out just before the boil.


My bag rests on the bottom of my pot. The other day i even undershot my mash temp so i fired up the 32 jet mongolian. I stirred like buggery and the bag didn't split, i was very relieved. The bottom of my pot is VERY thin too. 

Kyle G- What recipe are you going to make first up? 
Also, Chilling with plastic bottles doesn't work very well. I tried a few different chilling methods. the imemrsion chiller used to take me about 45-60mins to get close to pitching temps. The long cooling time meant i got a few infections, even though the wort was covered, you're making a good choice going nochill, so much easier. Plus you can brew at a mates places and take your brew home.


Good luck with the brew!


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery (2/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> thanks for all the feedback people!
> 
> this afternoon i did a test boil. 25L so by the sounds of things i'll need more when i brew. but 25L took 31 minutes to get from 20 degrees to 70 degrees, and then a further 24 minutes to reach boiling temperature. Do these times sound ok? I think i will look at getting a 4 ring burner in the future.
> 
> ...



Mate get down to Grypgon brewing in Bassenden (email him for his address), he can smash your grain for you if you want. He has pretty much everything you need. Yes the Ezisphon gets the hot wort into the willow 20L no chill cube. No worries there.
I have a BIAB bag that has been hand made. When I get the water to mash temp (usually 68C before chucking in the grain) I put the bag in and then using bulldog clips I set the bag up so it cannot touch the bottom of the pot. Then chuck in the grain and mash. I then add the heat (gas three ring burner works fine) to 78C for mashout and I know the bottom of the bag cannot touch the bottom of the pot. Problem solved ...... 
Cheers
BBB


----------



## keifer33 (2/6/11)

Order from Gryphon and he will email you pretty soon after and you can organise to pick it all up. The ezisphon works a treat and will get the boiling hot stuff to your cube with ease and using the hd silicone hose is the best.

As far as the thermo goes you could probably still use it for now just try and leave some slack around that side of the pot or keep it off that wall. With an 80lt pot for 25lt im sure you wont miss the space. Just remain mindful there is something there that can tear your bag.


----------



## kymba (2/6/11)

awesome work on your first brew!

i couldn't see if you use fire or electricity to heat your pot, but if it is by fire you can add heat and not bother raising the bag. I add heat to my 98L pot with a spiral burner fed with a medium pressure regulator and haven't seen any hint of meltage, although I do stir the grains madly though whilst this heat is applied

also, if you don't want to deal with hot wort you can leave it in the pot until it has cooled (a triple batch in my pot take 2 days to cool to ambient). I just pop the lid on at flameout (giving it a whirlpool if if i remember) and wrap a couple of layers of gladwrap around the pot/lid joint

i've had success leaving it in the pot for 4-5 days then siphoning into the FV's


----------



## pimpsqueak (3/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> i'll also look at putting a cake tray or something on the bottom to support the bag, but will the metal legs of the tray scratch the base of my pot leaving space for bacteria?



Any bacteria will be killed in the boil.


----------



## felten (3/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> could i use the above mentioned 'ezysiphon' for this?


I've never used an ezysiphon, not sure what its made of, but if it's one of those plastic ones they might not work too well if you're going to siphon boiling hot wort.

[edit] just read the other replies, looks like its fine then.


----------



## chunckious (3/6/11)

Can anyone explain the concept behind no-chill?

I understand the process but not the science of it. If chilling down and you don't do it quick enough you can bacteria growth. How can you then no-chill over a longer time and the beer is good. 
The guys at the LHBS scoffed when I mentioned no-chill.

P.S. Awesome community to this site.......well done lads. Bottoms up!!!


----------



## Ross (3/6/11)

felten said:


> I've never used an ezysiphon, not sure what its made of, but if it's one of those plastic ones they might not work too well if you're going to siphon boiling hot wort.
> 
> [edit] just read the other replies, looks like its fine then.



Felten,

I'm not sure if the previous posters have used an Easy Siphon or not, but my experience says they will warp & fail in hot liquid, so you were right to question it. I would never recommend one for this purpose.
Get yourself a stainless siphon or instal a tap.

cheers Ross


----------



## ekul (3/6/11)

chunkious- when nochilling the wort is drained to a 20L cube and selaed up. The hot wort (90C+) pastuerises the insides of the container, allowing it to be stored for a lng periopd of time. Its like that long life milk, except it tastes better.

I was getting infections when chilling because the wort is not sealed up when it cools, so any bugs that float by can hop on in. Note that heaps of people chill without dramas, i even think it makes a slightly better beer, but the pros of nochill outweight the cons for me so thats what i do.


----------



## bignath (3/6/11)

Chunkious said:


> If chilling down and you don't do it quick enough you can bacteria growth. How can you then no-chill over a longer time and the beer is good.
> The guys at the LHBS scoffed when I mentioned no-chill.




Let me guess, LHBS guy is a black and yellow shop?

ekul is spot on with his info on no chill. The longer time your finished wort stays around boiling to 90deg or thereabouts, the harder it is for anything to grow in it, therefore keeping it nice and free from bacteria. 
The only couple of things about no chilling is you really need to have sound cleaning and sanitising processes down pat as you dont want to tip 5 hours of wort production into a vessel that has bacteria in it already.
The second thing is hop addition times are different when no chilling.
I have seen the error of my ways some time back when i was going halfway between chilling and no chilling and it was quickly explained that as brewers we should be doing either one of them. I was no chilling but then throwing it in the bathtub, pool whatever. This effectively lessened the time that the temp could keep my beer free from contaminants, so now i no chill properly and just let it cool down all by itself. Works well when you have a free cube, some spare time on the weekend, but no available fermenter space.


----------



## keifer33 (3/6/11)

I do apoligise it appears I did quote the wrong name of the syphon I use. This is what I use.
http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=348

Must have been reading the post above while typing. Cannot comment if the easisiphon can handle it.


----------



## stux (3/6/11)

keifer33 said:


> I do apoligise it appears I did quote the wrong name of the syphon I use. This is what I use.
> http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=348
> 
> Must have been reading the post above while typing. Cannot comment if the easisiphon can handle it.



I use this with a few meters of hd 1/2" silicon hose to do my no chill siphoning. Works brilliantly


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery (3/6/11)

I have used the easy siphon for nearly 20 brews now with no problems. I admit I don't submerge the entire thing in hot wort - that would be silly. No warping or problems noted. 
Cheers
BBB


----------



## Jazzafish (3/6/11)

Well done on the investment into AG brewing. It will change your life... you have been warned! A few things to look into, in a constructive point of view. Just a few things I personally didn't give enough thought on my first batches. I got away without incident, but others have copped the ugly stick!

The weight of the hot wort has been identified as a hazard in the pot, and an ice bath is an unlikely way to chill anything above 10 Litres efficiently. The SS syphon/Installing a tap to get wort into a no chill cube is a great solution here BUT... Invest in some heat & water proof gloves. They come in handy, pardon the pun. 

Another hazard is the grain. It will almost double in weight, so obviously it gets heavy. It will be quite hot and needs to removed from your pot... so factor this into your batch size, you need to be able to lift the bag out, so consider any obstacles above/around your stove. A second pot/bucket is handy to transfer the bag of grain to and stop it getting messy.

I suggest a smaller batch size... until you get used to your rig and handling the hot wort/grain and figure out your limits. You can still do this in your 80L pot and will be easier to get to a boil.

Now I'm not sure of your living arrangements, but I join a long list of brewers that find it wise to brew outside in the interest of marital bliss... Just putting it out there that the 4 ring burner may have other benefits to heating the water/wort. For reasons I cannot understand my wife doesn't get excited about the smell of boiling wort or fresh hops filling the house? There are only so many places I can hide the knives after a boil over on the kitchen stove too!

Enjoy your brew day, it is important to have fun with it! Hard not to.


----------



## kyleg (4/6/11)

wow, pleasently suprised with the helpful and positive feedback. this is quite different from other forums on the internet.

looks like the SS siphon tip and a few meters of the silicone tubing is the way to go. and no chill. would i be able to get one of the no chill cubes at bunnings?

and i think that a 4 ring burner will be the way to go, as i have a rangehood sitting probably 300mm above the top of my pot when on the stove, so not alot of room to get the bag out. any suggestions on a place to get a burner and a rough price?


----------



## kelbygreen (4/6/11)

camping store. I think it was only like $40 for the 3 ring so 4 ring prob around $50-60. You will prob have to build a shield around it to stop wind and stuff getting in plus it will help with the boil.


----------



## kyleg (4/6/11)

ekul said:


> My bag rests on the bottom of my pot. The other day i even undershot my mash temp so i fired up the 32 jet mongolian. I stirred like buggery and the bag didn't split, i was very relieved. The bottom of my pot is VERY thin too.
> 
> Kyle G- What recipe are you going to make first up?
> Also, Chilling with plastic bottles doesn't work very well. I tried a few different chilling methods. the imemrsion chiller used to take me about 45-60mins to get close to pitching temps. The long cooling time meant i got a few infections, even though the wort was covered, you're making a good choice going nochill, so much easier. Plus you can brew at a mates places and take your brew home.
> ...



the recipe im going for first up is an american style amber ale from john palmers book, 


Big Basin Amber Ale

Malts
3.6kg british pale ale malt
.45kg crystal 60L
.45kg crystal 90L
227g flaked wheat.

(can anyone suggest a brand of malt if i'm going to buy from gryphon)

Hop
14g Centennial (10%) 60 min
28g Mt. Hood (7%) 30 min
29g Willamette (5%) 15 min

Yeast
Wyeast 1332
Northwest Ale


----------



## felten (5/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> (can anyone suggest a brand of malt if i'm going to buy from gryphon)


If you're after a british base malt it looks like Bairds golden promise or maris otter is the one to get.


----------



## ekul (5/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> any suggestions on a place to get a burner and a rough price?



There's a few options. If you've got an 80L pot you may as well buy a heating option that will allow you to do doubles.

I bought a 32jet mongolian from keefer bros, was one of my best purchases, although its a bit big for an 80L pot. I have heard that the italian spiral burners from beerbelly are quite good too.

Or BCF sells a turkey burner with stand (and high pressure reg?) for $169.

If you buy a good burner straight away you won't need to upgrade. I bought a 3ring burner, a 4ring burner and some other shittiy burner before i went and bought bthe biggest burner i could get my hands on.


----------



## matt white (5/6/11)

Another simple idea for a siphon is a 7- 800mm piece if copper hot water pipe (very cheap), bent into an L shape (preferably by a plumber to get the mandrel bend) connected to a metre or two of 10 or 12mm PVC pipe with an in line tap half way down it. Close the tap, fill the top half of PVC pipe with iodophor solution, connect to copper pipe which is already dunked in the hot wort, open tap and commence siphon into a bucket or similar. When pure wort siphons, close tap, put PVC pipe in fermenter, and siphon hot liquid into cube.


----------



## kyleg (8/6/11)

thanks again people. i ended up going with the SS siphon tip and a few meters of silicone hosing. i picked it up this afternoon, and tried to give it a go to get the water out of my kettle that is still in it from when i did the test boil. i did struggle a bit and somehow got it to go but i think it was just luck. if anyone who uses this method could share some tips that would be great.

also when i did eventually drain some of the water out from my test boil, i noticed A) there were white floatie bits in the water, not sure what this is? and the has been a discolouration of the inside of my aluminium pot, up to where the water was sitting. should i be worried? im going to give it a propper clean with nappisan and warm water before i brew, not sure why it discoloured though?


----------



## [email protected] (8/6/11)

Really good video on getting a siphon started.


----------



## keifer33 (8/6/11)

Those ss siphon tips do take a bit of getting used too. I find trying to hold it as vertical as possible and making short fast movements up and down and its away.


----------



## bignath (8/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> and the has been a discolouration of the inside of my aluminium pot, up to where the water was sitting. should i be worried? im going to give it a propper clean with nappisan and warm water before i brew, not sure why it discoloured though?




*NO! STOP WHAT YOURE DOING!! DON'T GO HASTILY CLEANING YOUR POT JUST YET!!!!
*
The discoloration you have around the inside of the pot at the level your wort was - is it dark grey???

If so, IT'S A GOOD THING. It's called seasoning your pot or something or rather....It is actually a protective layer that forms only on aluminium pots. (stainless doesn't do this). I wouldn't use an aluminium pot that didn't have this "discoloration" barrier.

It's supposed to be there after the first time you use it apparently. If you go cleaning it off, you should reboil some water in the pot to bring it back again. I know it sounds kind of weird, but seriously, do a google search for things like:

"breaking in a aluminium pot" or "seasoning an aluminium pot" etc....

Cheers,

Nath


----------



## kyleg (8/6/11)

Big Nath said:


> *NO! STOP WHAT YOURE DOING!! DON'T GO HASTILY CLEANING YOUR POT JUST YET!!!!
> *
> The discoloration you have around the inside of the pot at the level your wort was - is it dark grey???
> 
> ...



ah good to hear, i only boiled 25L last time so i might need to do it again with more water so as to break in a higher level for when i do a full volume brew. thanks for the quick reply!

also a bit random, but im having problems with typing replys, i use firefox on a mac, and in these reply boxes, there is no flashing line, like the one to indicate where your about to type, also can't highlight and delete. any one else have this problem?


----------



## kyleg (8/6/11)

also thanks beer4u and kiefer33. ill check out the video and try holding it vertical. can't wait to finally get this brew under way!


----------



## stux (9/6/11)

I use one of those siphon tips.

Another name for them is "jiggle siphons" and that's a good hint on how to use them 

try to keep it vertical and use a bunch of short sharp thrusts, with each thrust you pump the wort up, keep on jiggling until it flows

probably worth practising a few times before the Big Boil 

Bunnings do sell the Willow 23L (marked as 20L) water jerrys, but I found kmart was cheaper.

Anaconda/BCF type/Disposals sell the 20L cubes

I would recommend filling them up with hot water and flushing a few times to season the cubes. Essentially you don't want to taste plastic in the water


----------



## pimpsqueak (9/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> also a bit random, but im having problems with typing replys, i use firefox on a mac, and in these reply boxes, there is no flashing line, like the one to indicate where your about to type, also can't highlight and delete. any one else have this problem?



Try going to "My Controls", then scroll down and on the left you click "Board Settings" then scroll down and change the type of text editor from "Rich" to "Standard".


----------



## felten (9/6/11)

Stux said:


> try to keep it vertical and use a bunch of short sharp thrusts, with each thrust you pump the wort up, keep on jiggling until it flows


  :lol:


----------



## bignath (9/6/11)

Stux said:


> try to keep it vertical and use a bunch of short sharp thrusts, with each thrust you pump the wort up, keep on jiggling until it flows




And be careful about the "boilover"...


----------



## kyleg (9/6/11)

ah thanks again people. going to give the siphon a bit more practice soon, just waiting for my pot water to cool a little bit more. and changing to stand text editor did the trick. thanks!


----------



## kyleg (9/6/11)

mmm still couldn't get it going via stroking. i find the silicone hose is hard to stroke, i get alot of friction. in the end what i did was put the hose in the water, with big thick plastic heatproof gloves, and filled up the siphon with a bit of water, put my thumb on the end to keep the water in then lowered the hose into my cube, then released thumb to start the flow, only problem was the first bit splashes in a little bit because you need to take your thumb off just before you put the hose in through the top hole. 

would there be a problem with doing this on brew day? that little splash make much of a difference? as long as my gloves and everything are sanitized. only problem i can see apart from the innitial splash is that the first bit of wort that fills up the siphon hose might be clumpy with hop residue as its not going through the SS tip, im assuming the SS tip acts like a bit of a filter?

*EDIT: figured it out. good link -> *


----------



## keifer33 (9/6/11)

Are you stroking the ss syphon just below the water level or near the base?


----------



## pimpsqueak (9/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> mmm still couldn't get it going via stroking.



Try viagra.  

Seriously though, it's a jiggle siphon, not a stroking syphon. I doubt you'll get it going that way.
In order to prepare yourself, go and google up a video of Pamela Anderson using a skipping rope... that's jiggling. 



Stroking is optional


----------



## kyleg (9/6/11)

pimpsqueak said:


> Try viagra.
> 
> Seriously though, it's a jiggle siphon, not a stroking syphon. I doubt you'll get it going that way.
> In order to prepare yourself, go and google up a video of Pamela Anderson using a skipping rope... that's jiggling.
> ...



yeah i looked up jiggle siphon on youtube. made it much easier! so now i have my new no chill cube and fermenter soaking in hot/warm water with a bit of nappisan. now off to go buy a burner!


----------



## kyleg (9/6/11)

keifer33 said:


> Are you stroking the ss syphon just below the water level or near the base?



yeah i was stroking outside of the pot, so not even near the water, i guess that was wrong!


----------



## kyleg (9/6/11)

bought one of those campfire mega jet burners this afternoon, and fired it up for a test boil with approx 60L in my 80L Pot. Stopped it at 45 degrees because the paint on the base of the cooked was melting and flaking. i then saw on the box it says maximum diameter of pot 300mm, and mine is about 500mm which means it covers the whole base. 

heres a photo of the burner if your unfamiliar - http://shopping.netsuite.com/core/media/me...39372e6225798cb

Do you think once the paint has melted off that it will be ok to keep using? i sure hope so.


----------



## stux (9/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> mmm still couldn't get it going via stroking. i find the silicone hose is hard to stroke, i get alot of friction.



I have no idea what you were trying to do 

BUT I'm glad YouTube saved the day


----------



## stux (9/6/11)

Kyle G said:


> bought one of those campfire mega jet burners this afternoon, and fired it up for a test boil with approx 60L in my 80L Pot. Stopped it at 45 degrees because the paint on the base of the cooked was melting and flaking. i then saw on the box it says maximum diameter of pot 300mm, and mine is about 500mm which means it covers the whole base.
> 
> heres a photo of the burner if your unfamiliar - http://shopping.netsuite.com/core/media/me...39372e6225798cb
> 
> Do you think once the paint has melted off that it will be ok to keep using? i sure hope so.



Good idea to pre-boil water in your pot as a "dry run", it will also mean you can burn off the paint, as its going to burn off anyway, and this way, maybe you wont get fumes in your beer


----------



## kyleg (12/6/11)

well, the brew has been done! was a good day, felt a bit pressed for time, so was a little hectic and unorganized, but no major problems. had a few issues with temperature stability during the mash as i was brewing outside and the wind was pretty chilly, will have to look into some insulating material for my kettle. also had a pretty high evaporation rate during the boil as some people had predicted, so ended up with probably a liter or two less than the 23L i was aiming for. also when i was doing the recipe up in brewmate before hand i noticed that since my recipe was for 19L and i was planning to do a 23L batch, i needed to up my quantities of malt and hops to suit. also my siphon struggled towards the last 5L of the batch not sure why that was, but i had to pour it in through a sift and funnel into my no chill cube, so it would have splashed a little but it was over 3/4 full when i started doing that. 

havn't transferred to the fermenter yet as i pulled the yeast from the FREEZER this afternoon, and then saw on the packed it says 'DO NOT FREEZE', so im going to pick up some more yeast tomorrow and it will just have to sit in the cube for another day. got a few pictures to upload soon too.

thanks again for everyones help! cant wait to drink it!


----------



## RdeVjun (12/6/11)

No biggies there Kyle, sounds like it was a breeze (pun intended)! Insulating the kettle thoroughly during mashing makes life pretty simple.
With frozen yeast, it is probably best to get some more, but with your wort in a cube you can take as long as you like with that. :icon_cheers:


----------



## brett mccluskey (12/6/11)

Top stuff Kyle :icon_cheers: Sounds like you had a successful brew day.I wouldn't panic about anything,unless the mash temp was out of whack for a long time things will be fine.Same for the slight splashing,a minor issue IMO.Let us know how it goes,and congrats on your first AG


----------



## kyleg (11/7/11)

So I cracked open the first stubby thursday night, which I think was 11 days after bottling, a bit premature I know. A few things I found, the beer was under carbonated, i used 102g of raw sugar (same as cane sugar I think) for 19L, which I got from John palmers book. Will carbonation continue to improve? Also he beer is quite hazy, I'm thinking it might be because I used rolled wheat instead of flamed wheat. 

In terms of flavour I think it's pretty good, slightly too much hop flavor/aroma and maybe a bit too bitter, the flavour drops off quickly, not much on the back palate. Though I'm thinking these flaws will smooth out with a bit more conditioning time. Thoughts?

Pictures from grain to bottle coming soon!


----------



## Lecterfan (11/7/11)

Kyle G said:


> So I cracked open the first stubby thursday night, which I think was 11 days after bottling, a bit premature I know. A few things I found, the beer was under carbonated, i used 102g of raw sugar (same as cane sugar I think) for 19L, which I got from John palmers book. Will carbonation continue to improve? Also he beer is quite hazy, I'm thinking it might be because I used rolled wheat instead of flamed wheat.
> 
> In terms of flavour I think it's pretty good, slightly too much hop flavor/aroma and maybe a bit too bitter, the flavour drops off quickly, not much on the back palate. Though I'm thinking these flaws will smooth out with a bit more conditioning time. Thoughts?
> 
> Pictures from grain to bottle coming soon!




Chillax fella - try it again at 4 weeks and go from there...


----------

