# I can't bleach it's not StarSan



## DarrenTheDrunk (13/9/20)

Hello fellow drinkers

Some of you regulars will remember my posts in regard to using chlorine at various dilutions as a disinfectant. To say I was hounded about this is an understatement. Almost without exception, what everybody said was correct. I am on a learning trail at the moment. The purpose of this post is not to go on about chlorine, however I still use it in certain circumstances and it has many benefits.

Many talked about the Star San and other similar products and I recall my reply was that to use it at the dose rate recommended on the bottle, and to have my fermenters exposed to that ratio for one minute, i.e. 60 L fermenters, makes this option extremely expensive. I was then advised, and again I believe correctly so, that I do not need to fill the entire 60 L fermenter and leave it sit for one minute and that I just needed to wet the surfaces and allow that to sit for one minute.

The same principled discussion was used in relation to disinfecting kegs and bottles and several people said the same thing and the point of this post is, that I was advised I can disinfect a bottle, then pour that into another bottle, and pour that into another bottle and so on. It is reasonable to assume that same principle could be applied to kegs. My point, and I can hear everybody say, for crying out loud get to the bloody point is that, how many times can you do this before the star San becomes in effective? Further, how do you know at what point it becomes ineffective.

At least with chlorine, and I’m not promoting this at all but just making the point, the nose knows when it is ineffective. The same applies to sodium Metabisulphite. So I guess I am saying that I am not sold on star San unless somebody has an answer for me and given the amount of implements that need sanitising and I am one of those wankers that if I am told 10 mil per litre is sufficient, I will do 20 mills per litre to be sure …!!! I am planning now on getting a 20 kg bag of sodium metabisulphite ($50), which also is a “non-rinse” solution and does not have the corrosive effects that chlorine does on the alloy kegs. I would be interested in people’s opinions on this plan of attack. Now remember, we are all friends here, and we must take turns in the sandpit and play nicely together, or Miss will get grumpy at us and we might get spanked!!!.


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## clickeral (13/9/20)

You can reuse it until it gets above a ph of 3.0 

Brew Tips: Cloudy StarSan 

I tend to filter out any bits mine gets, cloudy isnt an issue as long as its ph 3.0 or below 

I also use straight alcohol which I spray on and I don't reuse that


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## Hangover68 (13/9/20)

I've been using household bleach diluted for over 20 years, a good rinse regime and no one would even know.


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## MashBasher (13/9/20)

I learned to brew in the 90s, out of Charlie Papazian’s books. Not much internetty wankery back then. No such thing as StarSan or PBW, at least where I was.

Charlie recommended chlorine as a sanitiser. Used it for years. BUT - brewing systems in place then were largely plastic buckets and glass carboys. Diluted chlorine bleach is generally fine with those materials. And the chlorine itself evaporates readily at room temperature (that’s why cats will drink the standing water out of the toilet, if you let them - they don’t like the chlorine that’s added to our water supply). And even so, Charlie warned against the dangers of pitting stainless steel through using bleach, way back then.

So chlorine bleach has a historical place in home brewing. So, unfortunately, does sodium metabisulphite.

Sodium Met is a powerful steriliser - in wine (fun fact - the ancient Romans also used it to for wine making). Wine has a low enough PH to make it effective. Beer generally doesn’t. Sodium Met was promoted by Coopers at around the same time (90’s) and it became popular because it was ubiquitous and came from a trusted source.

The other problem with Sodium Met is it is can have negative health effects if inhaled. I‘m an asthmatic; it makes me pretty frigging sick if I breathe in a whiff.

So I don’t like it because a) not all that effective b) dangerous. Potassium Metabisulphite is marginally better (very common in wine making) but still not all that effective.

What do I use now? PBW and StarSan. Why? It’s simply better. And I have a lot of stainless these days. Honestly, coupled with a bucket blaster from KegLand and a couple of fittings, I end up using bugger all chemicals - and far less time than I would otherwise.

Last week I needed to clean all 200 plus litres of my fermenter and packaging vessels. That’s stainless conical, brite tank, and half a dozen kegs of various sizes. Took me a couple of hours on each of two afternoons, used about two scoops of PBW and 15 ml of StarSan. Effective and economical. 

I won’t be going back to the “good ol’ days”, ‘cos quite frankly they weren’t that good.


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## paulyg (13/9/20)

Not sure how long it will last but I use about 1.5ml per batch of beer (1.5 ml diluted with 1-litre water in a spray bottle) which is enough to sanitise all bottles, kegs, fermenters equipment etc. So a $6.45 bottle of 500ml Stellar san should last me about 300+ batches of beer. 

It costs less than 2 cents per litre, so even if you use twice as much as needed you are only going to spend 4, maybe 5 cents per batch of beer and if you want you can store it for next the batch, but at 3 cents per batch, doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## Grmblz (13/9/20)

The joy of a cheap price is gone long before the bitterness of a false economy.


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## butisitart (13/9/20)

paulyg said:


> Not sure how long it will last but I use about 1.5ml per batch of beer (1.5 ml diluted with 1-litre water in a spray bottle) which is enough to sanitise all bottles, kegs, fermenters equipment etc. So a $6.45 bottle of 500ml Stellar san should last me about 300+ batches of beer.
> 
> It costs less than 2 cents per litre, so even if you use twice as much as needed you are only going to spend 4, maybe 5 cents per batch of beer and if you want you can store it for next the batch, but at 3 cents per batch, doesn't seem worth it to me.


that's probably about right. i've starsanned through 210 brews on my current bottle, sanitising bottles and fermenters plus tubing and whatever else you use when bottling/prepping a fermenter. i'm about 400ml into a 500ml.
6-7 drops into the bottle sanitizer plunger, more than that and you lose it all to froth - like overloading your washing machine with a whole packet of omo. then the plunger gets tipped into the fermenter for a sanitise, then back to the bottle plunger to be used for whatever else.
plus sanitise caps if i'm not on the swing tops, 6-7 droplets does a full days brew.
never had an issue, and cheap as chips. and no, never even thought to store it for a 2nd brew.


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## ozdevil (13/9/20)

i use star san not only for sanitising fermenters kegs and beer bottles it serves for a few purposes

yes it can be reused a few times .. 



i even set up the kitchen sink a mild detergent in 1 sink water in another for rinsing then a bit of starsan in my beer glass washer then just let it air dry

a result of this is the co2 will perform better in the glass if the co2 sticks to the side of a glass you will no the glass is dirty

and i will use the starsan for about a week of drinking


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## kadmium (13/9/20)

Hey mate. All been covered pretty well above there. The softer the water the longer the starsan will be good for. I fill a keg and then just daisy chain from one to the next as I fill them, and it lasts me weeks if not more. Thats 20L which is 45ml but a 500ml bottle is about $15 call it so its just over $1 to do say 5 kegs or 20c a keg. Not too bad. 

Meta is ok, but I personally don't use it. Starsan is easy, it foams which lets it get into all the nooks and crannies, the foam is harmless to the yeast, no worries about breathing it in, don't need to get a small resolution scale to mix up say 1L of the stuff. Can put in a spray bottle and spray down stuff with it. Great to keep around. 

Just my opinion. Sometimes there's things to save money on and sometimes its easier to just purchase the right tool. It's not super exorbitant if you scale it and use it sparingly compared to your health and losing a batch. 

Not having a go, every one is still learning including me.


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## philrob (13/9/20)

Used to use Starsan.
Now I use this, even more economical.


Brewman - Brewman Acid Sanitiser (500mL)


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## kadmium (13/9/20)

No offence, but at 5ml / L and Star San being 1.5ml / L and both being 500ml with Atomic 15 Foaming Sanitiser (star san) being $13 vs $11 its far more economical to use the Atomic 15. It's also made in Australia.


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## Grmblz (13/9/20)

Haaa, foaming sanitiser, the elephant in the room, "don't fear the foam" yeh fair call, but what about all that air/oxygen that's in the bubbles???
Pot stirred.


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## kadmium (13/9/20)

I mix mine in an O2 purged keg with pure argon.

Buy then again, only sanitising pre fermentation so oxygen good. Other then the few times I forgot the airlocks on, or when I tried to unclog the picnic tap and ducked a heap of sanitising water into my beer hahah


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## Nullnvoid (13/9/20)

You seem to be over thinking it mate


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## kadmium (13/9/20)

I was making a joke in relation to grmblz, I really struggle to convey sarcasm (my main form of communication) over text


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## Grmblz (13/9/20)

ARGON! pfft, Krypton is way better, but if I'm feeling flush I'll use my oganesson keg, don't blame me he ^^ started it.


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## ozdevil (13/9/20)

stellasan starsan etc 

i' wouldnt be skimping on them 1ml goes along way

love the stuff on brewday get the bucket blaster for kegs and fermenters in a 10l bucket with a bit of water and about 2.5ml of stella san and just enough to drown the pump and away ya go job done in secods chuck in scissors etc what ya going to use and bobs ya uncle

off course theres other ways but why make it harder i just love the sanitiser for beer you can just wash and leave and then put ya wort in without rinsing 

and how good it is with drinking glass is brilliant


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## Ronwales (13/9/20)

Hangover68 said:


> I've been using household bleach diluted for over 20 years, a good rinse regime and no one would even know.


I do the same , works a charm. Never had off flavours or infection.


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## MashBasher (13/9/20)

Grmblz said:


> ARGON! pfft, Krypton is way better, but if I'm feeling flush I'll use my oganesson keg, don't blame me he ^^ started it.


Lads, lads, lads. Get serious.

I freeze my keg to -260C using liquid nitrogen. Then flush with nitrous oxide. I push the flushed gas up into my 351 XY GTHO Falcon for a standing 10.9 quarter mile.

Following this simple procedure, I ensure a closed transfer using non-GMO, fully vegan line that has also been flushed with liquid helium.

There is a lot of gas with this approach, but it’s very noble.


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## zoigl (14/9/20)

I'll probably get bombed for suggesting that Jasol 42% phosphoric acid is about the cheapest sanitizer available. If you need bubbles add a few mls. of the Star San type sanitizer.
I pay $30.17 for 5 litres. Check the ingredients in Star San.


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## Nullnvoid (14/9/20)

kadmium said:


> I was making a joke in relation to grmblz, I really struggle to convey sarcasm (my main form of communication) over text


Sorry I meant Darren, not you


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## Nullnvoid (14/9/20)

The water in Geelong is very soft so the Starsan (or equivalent) will last a while. There is a test you can use to see if it's still viable, one of the members who used to be here use to mention it, I'll see if I can find it.

We use starsan right throughout the house, on everything, and it's magical stuff. You shouldn't actually use it in dosage rates higher than it says as it can start to eat away at the materials.

A bottle lasts forever, I bought an extra one at the start of this apocolypse as our consumption increased dramatically and the new bottlemay very well not be used for years (might have to sell it I think).


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## kadmium (14/9/20)

I never thought about using it for glasses. Great idea tbh. 

Was thinking about what to wash my beer glasses with. Perfect idea. 

Great for baby bottles and things too.


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## Nullnvoid (14/9/20)

kadmium said:


> I never thought about using it for glasses. Great idea tbh.
> 
> Was thinking about what to wash my beer glasses with. Perfect idea.
> 
> Great for baby bottles and things too.



Yep when my daughter was born, all her bottles were sterilised in star san.

We have a stainless steel bench and that gets cleaned with Starsan, which is good because it is also a rust inhibitor and keeps it looking schweet!


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## Hangover68 (14/9/20)

I think DtD can consider himself spanked


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## peterlonz (14/9/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Hello fellow drinkers
> 
> Some of you regulars will remember my posts in regard to using chlorine at various dilutions as a disinfectant. To say I was hounded about this is an understatement. Almost without exception, what everybody said was correct. I am on a learning trail at the moment. The purpose of this post is not to go on about chlorine, however I still use it in certain circumstances and it has many benefits.
> 
> ...


I have no problems with your suggestions. BUT like you I am a bleach fan & I use it about 50;50 diluted with cold tapwater. Exposure need only be about 1 minute & the surfaces must be continually bathed by manipulating the vessel.
Only warnings are: Must not be used on stainless kegs, use safety specs when handling strong bleach (just in case).
I rinse out with hot water from the hot water tap (sometimes twice) until the nose tells me it's clean & zero chlorine smell.


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## Eddy Monsoon (14/9/20)

kadmium said:


> I was making a joke in relation to grmblz, I really struggle to convey sarcasm (my main form of communication) over text



Blue Text is the usual for Sarcasm, or use Sarcastica Font


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## Eddy Monsoon (14/9/20)

MashBasher said:


> I learned to brew in the 90s, out of Charlie Papazian’s books. Not much internetty wankery back then. No such thing as StarSan or PBW, at least where I was.
> 
> Charlie recommended chlorine as a sanitiser. Used it for years. BUT - brewing systems in place then were largely plastic buckets and glass carboys. Diluted chlorine bleach is generally fine with those materials. And the chlorine itself evaporates readily at room temperature (that’s why cats will drink the standing water out of the toilet, if you let them - they don’t like the chlorine that’s added to our water supply). And even so, Charlie warned against the dangers of pitting stainless steel through using bleach, way back then.


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## DTee (14/9/20)

zoigl said:


> I'll probably get bombed for suggesting that Jasol 42% phosphoric acid is about the cheapest sanitizer available. If you need bubbles add a few mls. of the Star San type sanitizer.
> I pay $30.17 for 5 litres. Check the ingredients in Star San.



Not an organic chemist - but I don't believe phosphoric acid on its own is an effective food use sanitiser. From what I understand the main function of the phosphoric in Starsan is to maintain a sufficiently low pH environment for the dodecylbenzenesulfonic to sanitise/kill bacteria.

Like I said - not a chemist, don't know for sure, so I stick with Starsan.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (15/9/20)

Eddy Monsoon said:


> View attachment 119100


I think Charlie used to drink out of the drip tray


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## peterlonz (15/9/20)

Star San is very suitable for all brewing purposes I can think of.
BUT it's not low cost.
Bleach is about $1.00 per litre & readily available at all pool shops - pretty damned low cost!
The only other factor to consider when using bleach is: do you have sufficient hot water to do the final rinsing out?
No point in using cold tap water, you are aiming to sanitize, & tap water can support pathogens. That said I brewed for many years using cold tap water, I don't take that (small) risk anymore. All my cold tap water is 0.5 micron filtered.


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## butisitart (15/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Star San is very suitable for all brewing purposes I can think of.
> BUT it's not low cost.
> Bleach is about $1.00 per litre & readily available at all pool shops - pretty damned low cost!
> The only other factor to consider when using bleach is: do you have sufficient hot water to do the final rinsing out?
> No point in using cold tap water, you are aiming to sanitize, & tap water can support pathogens. That said I brewed for many years using cold tap water, I don't take that (small) risk anymore. All my cold tap water is 0.5 micron filtered.


not knocking the bleach (don't use it, don't know anything about it),
but my $12 starsan from 2015 has sanitised EVERYTHING for over 5 years and i've still got 25% of the bottle. i think it's a 200-250ml (the label drifted off it years ago). maybe you can say that starsan is not cheap per litre, but it's easy to use, super efficient, and i don't know how much cheaper you can get


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## Nullnvoid (15/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Star San is very suitable for all brewing purposes I can think of.
> BUT it's not low cost.
> Bleach is about $1.00 per litre & readily available at all pool shops - pretty damned low cost!
> The only other factor to consider when using bleach is: do you have sufficient hot water to do the final rinsing out?
> No point in using cold tap water, you are aiming to sanitize, & tap water can support pathogens. That said I brewed for many years using cold tap water, I don't take that (small) risk anymore. All my cold tap water is 0.5 micron filtered.



Umm...you may have inhaled much bleach fumes.

Bottle of star san currently is $6.45 for 500ml. 
At the rate of 1.5ml per litre, there is 333 does per bottle.

That's 0.019cents a litre?

1 litre goes a long way and depending on application can be reused.


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## GalBrew (15/9/20)

I make up 10L of Starsan and reuse it for at least 6 months. The pH has never drifted above 3.5 in this time and works fine. Its as cheap as chips, don't know why you would risk ruining a batch of beer by using bleach.


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## mje1980 (15/9/20)

I had a 5 litre bottle of iodophor from an ag shop for I think a decade, and I wasted a lot of it. Worked great, I have star san but think I might go back to iodophor. Was pretty cheap too from memory. I liked that you could see from the colour how strong it was.


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## zoigl (15/9/20)

*PHOS ACID 42% - Jasol*





PHOS ACID 42%







jasol.co.nz




Phos *Acid 42%* is a yellow liquid, pH <1.0 S.G. 1.26 Phos *Acid 42%* is formulated on a base of *phosphoric acid*, blended with surfactants, specifically designed for the *acid* cleaning of food processing equipment. Phos *Acid 42%* can be used to clean equipment such as pasteurizers, cream treatment units, vacuum pans, concentrators, pre-heaters and other high temperature processing
*Sanitizing with Phosphoric Acid | Community | BeerAdvocate*


https://www.beeradvocate.com/.../sanitizing-with-phosphoric-acid.13113


20/4/2012 · 5 Star does in fact offer *phosphoric acid sanitizer* without the detergent; I forget the name right now but it is marketed as non-foaming Star San (for CIP, etc). *Phosphoric acid* will do the job alone, but the foamy stuff will do it a little faster. If price is a concern, you can get basically the same stuff at most agricultural supply stores, marketed as 'foaming milkstone remover' or equipment. Phos ..


STAR SAN is a blend of *phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid*. This synergistic blend provides a unique killing system that is unaffected by excessive organic soils. STAR SAN is also a self-foaming sanitizer. It can be applied through a foamer to produce self-adhering sanitizing foam for external sanitation. 

*2-Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid | C18H30O3S - PubChem*








CID 88006914


CID 88006914 | C36H60O6S2 | CID 88006914 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.




pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid is a colorless liquid. It is soluble in water. It is corrosive to metals and tissue. It is used to make detergents.

I use Phosphoric acid with a small addition on star san, it seems to work for me, and as it is so cheap, I don't worry about throwing out a mix after it has been used once or twice. I don't like the amount of foam that is in star san.


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## Vini2ton (15/9/20)

Like a bunch of old sheila's at sponge competition. "Plain flour must be sifted with the right hand or it doesn't rise properly!" Many roads lead to Rome. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Lots of stuff works fine for lots of people. I might do a trial run using just detergent and rinsing with tap water, just to see how long it takes for an infection to occur. Nah, couldn't be bothered. Yawn. When's this covid shit gonna end. Maybe I'll gargle some starsan.


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## MashBasher (15/9/20)

So in summary of all that has gone before. I'm sure we can all agree on these:

Keep it clean and sanitary.
Use something that works.
Use something that is cheap.
Don't use chlorine bleach on stainless.

Works for me.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (15/9/20)

paulyg said:


> Not sure how long it will last but I use about 1.5ml per batch of beer (1.5 ml diluted with 1-litre water in a spray bottle) which is enough to sanitise all bottles, kegs, fermenters equipment etc. So a $6.45 bottle of 500ml Stellar san should last me about 300+ batches of beer.
> 
> It costs less than 2 cents per litre, so even if you use twice as much as needed you are only going to spend 4, maybe 5 cents per batch of beer and if you want you can store it for next the batch, but at 3 cents per batch, doesn't seem worth it to me.


Wow, My post clearly got a few fellow drinkers active on this sit e which is NEVER a bad thing. zoilg, my questions is, how many times can you do this and how or when do you know the product is not from age...not effective


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## DarrenTheDrunk (15/9/20)

zoigl said:


> I'll probably get bombed for suggesting that Jasol 42% phosphoric acid is about the cheapest sanitizer available. If you need bubbles add a few mls. of the Star San type sanitizer.
> I pay $30.17 for 5 litres. Check the ingredients in Star San.


I just replied toi your first post mate and if my issue is considered not relevant in terms of know the duration of it efficacy then any heads up about getting STar San at the best price I am sure will be very much appreciated by most. cheers


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## DarrenTheDrunk (15/9/20)

MashBasher said:


> So in summary of all that has gone before. I'm sure we can all agree on these:
> 
> Keep it clean and sanitary.
> Use something that works.
> ...




I agree 10000000000% . I buggered up a keg using chlorine but no worried cos I use this keg to sanitize the other kegs and the entire line the the beer travels "beer trail" like audit trail ( yes yes yes... I am one of those boring bloody accountants) but your point is spot on MashBasher


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## DarrenTheDrunk (15/9/20)

MashBasher said:


> Lads, lads, lads. Get serious.
> 
> I freeze my keg to -260C using liquid nitrogen. Then flush with nitrous oxide. I push the flushed gas up into my 351 XY GTHO Falcon for a standing 10.9 quarter mile.
> 
> ...




in the voice of "Cheek and Chong" for you older brewers..."man...that sounds just so cool man...get me some of that shit and I will try it man...pass me the bong man..."


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## DarrenTheDrunk (15/9/20)

Grmblz said:


> Haaa, foaming sanitiser, the elephant in the room, "don't fear the foam" yeh fair call, but what about all that air/oxygen that's in the bubbles???
> Pot stirred.



very good point my old lost friend...!!!


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## kadmium (15/9/20)

If you want to know when Star San is no longer effective either check the PH using a digital PH meter or... it looks like this...






Don't ask me how guys, but managed to suck a full load of gelatine into my star san keg while trying to purge the bottle...

Never said I was smart. 

But that's what bad starsan looks like.


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## zoigl (16/9/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Wow, My post clearly got a few fellow drinkers active on this sit e which is NEVER a bad thing. zoilg, my questions is, how many times can you do this and how or when do you know the product is not from age...not effective


Normally, I don't keep it more than the day of brewing, I use filtered tap water. 
I keep a 10 litre keg of my mix to flush the beer lines after each session. I use boiled rain water for this mix.
For general spraying around during brew/kegging days, I use distilled water. I do a litmus tests regularly, and will not use cloudy mixes.


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## yankinoz (16/9/20)

D the D:

I'll be cranky and throw in a few points about chlorine, by which I assume everyone means chlorine bleach, @ 5% sodium hypochlorite solution. It is highly effective against a broad spectrum (Star-San is not great against wild yeasts) and cheap. Its drawbacks: (1) some knowledgeable brewers, including Palmer, maintain the chlorine gets adsorbed into the plastics used in brewing and builds up there, though that does not apply to glass. (2) Most of the chlorine bleach solutions contain detergents that persist even on glass. Unfortunately, that seems to be particularly true of Australian brands, e..g., I found Clorox in the US did not foam on shaking, but in Australia it does. White King is especially problematic that way. I've found brands at Aldi that foam very little, use them in bottling only and rinse well.


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## scomet (16/9/20)

DTee said:


> for the dodecylbenzenesulfonic to sanitise/kill bacteria.


I was told by an eminent chemist “thats just soap”

Darren, 10 is good 20 is better doesn't work, especially with chemicals, its all to do with dilute molecule size, same with weed killers… (10 works, 20 may-not)

Starsan Rocks, good thread btw.


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## peterlonz (16/9/20)

Star San as cheap as reported here? Well not in Australia.
But lets have the links to the lower priced suppliers.....................................please
Also something definitive about longevity both "as supplied, non diluted" & (as apparently frequently used) diluted.

BTW bleach haters who have never used the stuff - stop knocking something that works. If you happen to have an infection that's hard to track down - try undiluted bleach & allow 5 minutes exposure.
Fortunately most posting here are unlikely to face severe infections.


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## Grmblz (16/9/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> in the voice of "Cheek and Chong" for you older brewers..."man...that sounds just so cool man...get me some of that shit and I will try it man...pass me the bong man..."


"that's some heavy shit man" - "yeh, kinda grabs you by the boo boo dont it"


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## Nullnvoid (16/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Star San as cheap as reported here? Well not in Australia.
> But lets have the links to the lower priced suppliers.....................................please
> Also something definitive about longevity both "as supplied, non diluted" & (as apparently frequently used) diluted.
> 
> ...



StellarSan Sanitiser 500ml - (Phosphoric Based) (similar to StarSan) - $6.95 for 500ml
https://www.keg-king.com.au/atomic-15-foaming-sanitiser-orange.html $12.95 for 500ml
Star San - Clever Brewing Home Brew Beer Supplies - $34.95 for 500ml (this equates to 10cents per litre)
STARSAN Quality Home Brewing Supplies and Equipment, Adelaide - South Australia. We ship to your door Australia Wide. - $48.90 for 500ml (this equates to 7cents per litre)

You get the idea.

Undiluted I don't think it has a used by date. And diluted I think it depends on your water (hard/soft, rain, mains, snow etc)

But even if you use a litre each time to do kegs/fermenters etc that still 333.33333 doses per bottle.

How does that compare to how you use bleach?


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## kadmium (16/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Star San as cheap as reported here? Well not in Australia.
> But lets have the links to the lower priced suppliers.....................................please
> Also something definitive about longevity both "as supplied, non diluted" & (as apparently frequently used) diluted.
> 
> ...


Why would you say bleach is better? It boggles my mind that you would sanitise something with bleach "because it's more effective" and then rinse the crap out of it with tap water. Good one. I might as well just rinse all my stuff with plain tap water.

The advantage of Star San is that it's NO RINSE. As in, you don't rinse it.

And, as stated multiple times, bleach isn't an issue for glass. Sure, use it on your bottles that's great. But the OP mentioned using it on kegs. Bleach and stainless steel do NOT mix. In fact, I believe OP even stated he has ruined one of his kegs using bleach.

You know what works on Plastic, Glass, Stainless, Rubber, Nylon, **** almost any surface? Star San (or it's equivalent like Atomic 15 foaming) so no, I don't intend on using bleach.

As for the links to cheap products, the Australian made Atomic 15 Foaming cleaner from Keg King is $13 for 500ml with 1.5ml making 1 L of solution, which equates to 750 litres of solution.

Storage for undiluted is indefinite, and for premade solution depending on storage conditions anywhere from weeks to months.


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## Nullnvoid (16/9/20)

Umm I don't mean to deviate off topic, but @GrumpyPaul or @philrob can we change the topic title. This is a worthwhile discussion and I think it deserves a better title.

Something like "Starsan Vs The other shit" or "How good is Star San", or "I can't bleach it's not StarSan" Heheheh, actually that last one made me LOL. I pick that.

But seriously, maybe a topic title more relevent.


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## butisitart (16/9/20)

there's lot's of songs about it
brew my beer with a bottle of star san (cold chisel)
i was starsan struck (acka dacka)
there's a starsan waiting in the sink (david bowie)

and movies
starsan: the bottles bounce back
starsan and jane


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## MashBasher (16/9/20)

butisitart said:


> there's lot's of songs about it, and movies



Oh man,

Pretty (Blonde) Woman
PBW
“Plug me in” by PBW

“Song for Zula” by Phosphorescent
“The Phosphorus Rap”

Oh, Jesus, stop me! This is too much farkin’ fun...


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## GalBrew (17/9/20)

Arguing over the merits of StarSan makes me feel like it's 2010 again.


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## peterlonz (17/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Why would you say bleach is better? It boggles my mind that you would sanitise something with bleach "because it's more effective" and then rinse the crap out of it with tap water. Good one. I might as well just rinse all my stuff with plain tap water.
> 
> The advantage of Star San is that it's NO RINSE. As in, you don't rinse it.
> 
> ...


Clearly you have not bothered to read what has been said. Not unusual for the anti- bleach people who can't even acknowledge the cheapest source of bleach is "liquid chlorine" bought at any pool shop (smallest qty usually 5 or 10 litres) great around the house ( dishwasher clean out etc, sanitise whatever you have & it does not foam or build up in plastics. Is Star San better? Probably generally, but mainly because bleach needs care in handling (safety specs minimum) but also because rinsing out bleach needs to be done with either hot tap water or 0.5 micron filtered cold tap water. I'm repeating for those non readers
The cost of Star San puts me off: here we see reported (by Nullnvoid) price per litre varying from 14 Dlrs/litre to 98 Dlrs/litre. Unless Nullnvoid misreported only the highest cost stuff is genuine Star San.
For gods sake if you like Star San keep using it but don't present BS to make a case against chlorine bleach which did & will always works.


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## kadmium (17/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Clearly you have not bothered to read what has been said. Not unusual for the anti- bleach people who can't even acknowledge the cheapest source of bleach is "liquid chlorine" bought at any pool shop (smallest qty usually 5 or 10 litres) great around the house ( dishwasher clean out etc, sanitise whatever you have & it does not foam or build up in plastics. Is Star San better? Probably generally, but mainly because bleach needs care in handling (safety specs minimum) but also because rinsing out bleach needs to be done with either hot tap water or 0.5 micron filtered cold tap water. I'm repeating for those non readers
> The cost of Star San puts me off: here we see reported (by Nullnvoid) price per litre varying from 14 Dlrs/litre to 98 Dlrs/litre. Unless Nullnvoid misreported only the highest cost stuff is genuine Star San.
> For gods sake if you like Star San keep using it but don't present BS to make a case against chlorine bleach which did & will always works.


I think you have been drinking the bleach.

a) It. Corrodes. Stainless. Steel.
b) You need a specialised filter to rinse it? no thanks
c) You can't rinse everything with hot water, and hot water is not sanitary
d) PET Fermenters can't be rinsed with hot water anyway, nor PET bottles for bottling
d) Star San is the name given to generic acid based cleaners, Atomic 15 Sanitiser is 500ml UNDILUTED. It makes over 700 litres of product. It costs 17c per litre once made up. Put 3 grams less hops if you're so concerned about money.

So, if you want to use Bleach or liquid chlorine or what ever it is, go for it. But don't suggest new brewers try and save 4c / L.

Acid based, no rinse sanitisers are great. If you don't like foaming, use idophor jfc


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## paulyg (17/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Clearly you have not bothered to read what has been said. Not unusual for the anti- bleach people who can't even acknowledge the cheapest source of bleach is "liquid chlorine" bought at any pool shop (smallest qty usually 5 or 10 litres) great around the house ( dishwasher clean out etc, sanitise whatever you have & it does not foam or build up in plastics. Is Star San better? Probably generally, but mainly because bleach needs care in handling (safety specs minimum) but also because rinsing out bleach needs to be done with either hot tap water or 0.5 micron filtered cold tap water. I'm repeating for those non readers
> The cost of Star San puts me off: here we see reported (by Nullnvoid) price per litre varying from 14 Dlrs/litre to 98 Dlrs/litre. Unless Nullnvoid misreported only the highest cost stuff is genuine Star San.
> For gods sake if you like Star San keep using it but don't present BS to make a case against chlorine bleach which did & will always works.



How many ml of liquid chlorine would you need to add to 1 liter of water for effective sanitising?


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## butisitart (17/9/20)

kadmium said:


> I think you have been drinking the bleach.
> 
> d) Star San is the name given to generic acid based cleaners, Atomic 15 Sanitiser is 500ml UNDILUTED. It makes over 700 litres of product. It costs 17c per litre once made up. Put 3 grams less hops if you're so concerned about money.
> 
> Acid based, no rinse sanitisers are great. If you don't like foaming, use idophor jfc


d) i get to waste less hops woo-hoo bonus

i love the foamy bit. bit like bubble bath. it's a good indicator of if you've got enough / too much in the dilute. (or omo in the washing machine). dunno how much ml is in 6-7 droplets in a bottle plunger. never thought to measure it.


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## kadmium (17/9/20)

paulyg said:


> How many ml of liquid chlorine would you need to add to 1 liter of water for effective sanitising?


I think the concentration for food safe is around 15ml for 4 liters, which is call it 4ml / l so 5L will make 1,250L of the stuff. That makes it 12c a Liter. Compared to a no rinse, food safe, acid based, non corrosive sanitiser that costs 17c L.... my mind boggles at the sheer stubbornness of some


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## GalBrew (17/9/20)

The worst aspect of bleach is that if you don't rinse it completely off it will ruin your beer, flavour wise. Also there is Saniclean for those of you who want a low foam version of StarSan.


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## butisitart (17/9/20)

kadmium said:


> I think the concentration for food safe is around 15ml for 4 liters, which is call it 4ml / l so 5L will make 1,250L of the stuff. That makes it 12c a Liter. Compared to a no rinse, food safe, acid based, non corrosive sanitiser that costs 17c L.... my mind boggles at the sheer stubbornness of some


it's so cheap i've never bothered to measure it per L (although that's obviously a major factor on this thread).
i've been measuring it at 6-7 droplets for a brew day, and i've apparently been wasting it cos i can re-use it LOL. 
so i can extend the use of a 250ml ish bottle to about a decade, comfortably.
with the money i save, i can afford more hops


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## paulyg (17/9/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Hello fellow drinkers
> 
> Some of you regulars will remember my posts in regard to using chlorine at various dilutions as a disinfectant. To say I was hounded about this is an understatement. Almost without exception, what everybody said was correct. I am on a learning trail at the moment. The purpose of this post is not to go on about chlorine, however I still use it in certain circumstances and it has many benefits.
> 
> ...



So after reading all this, I'm pretty keen to know what you have decided to use?


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## butisitart (17/9/20)

one thing i DID learn off this thread is the using it as a spray - i'm currently 2/3 through a 1L ethanol sanitizer which i use when i couldn't be arsed mixing up some starsan, eg sanitising stirbars when everything else is already sanitised. but that IS expensive (about $10L) and lasts me less than a year. so when this one runs out, i'll re-fill with starsan solution at a billionth of the cost.


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## kadmium (17/9/20)

I use the ethyl too, cause its almost instant.

But yeah I'll probably take my own advice and go back to using starsan


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## peterlonz (18/9/20)

Kadmium, please stop the BS & deliberate mis-representation. Its unworthy of this forum.
I use bleach, always have. Yes I also have Iodophor & Starsan.
I have sought only to present a working reliable alternative & I have attempted to be fair.

Regarding the question of dilution of bleach, I generally just go 50:50 with cold tapwater, about one cupful of each.
Regarding rinsing,I thought almost all brewers by now were using filtered water so using cold filtered tapwater to rinse out the chlorine seems a straightforward proposition.
If you don't have that,don't use bleach or use hot tap which should be stored typically at 65 to 70 C & therefore draw off can be expected to be sanitary.
If new brewers find this confusing - Use StarSan because it has no drawbacks except cost which it seems is not so bad as I had thought.


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## Nullnvoid (18/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Kadmium, please stop the BS & deliberate mis-representation. Its unworthy of this forum.
> I use bleach, always have. Yes I also have Iodophor & Starsan.
> I have sought only to present a working reliable alternative & I have attempted to be fair.
> 
> ...


How much do you buy bleach for and in what quantity?


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## Paddy Melon (18/9/20)

Hi Guys, I'm sure some of you would have heard this podcast. It's an interview with the guy who developed StarSan. He puts Bleach and StarSan into perspective and answers all of the above questions, misnomers and fraudulent representations. After that you make up your own mind which to chose. Just highlight the link below and open it.



http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3


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## kadmium (18/9/20)

peterlonz said:


> Kadmium, please stop the BS & deliberate mis-representation. Its unworthy of this forum.
> I use bleach, always have. Yes I also have Iodophor & Starsan.
> I have sought only to present a working reliable alternative & I have attempted to be fair.
> 
> ...


Please explain where I misrepresented anything, and as far as BS, you alleged I did not read your post regarding bleach. I am not sure how much more can be explained further than, bleach corrodes stainless steel which is what got OP into strife in the first place. So, not sure why you would continue to advocate for it.

Secondly, filtered water doesn't necessary mean sanitary. Nor does water that's 60c. So if there is any misrepresentation, its stating that Bleach is better than purpose made, no rinse acid based sanitisers.

Oh, and mixing it at a ratio of 1:1 is faaaaaaaar higher than the recommended safe usage for sanitation of fresh fruit and vegetables, which is 100ppm or 100 parts per million. About 15ml in 4 litres.

Not sure where you think I misrepresented anything, but a mix of 1:1 bleach to water is definitely not something you should recommend. I would love to know where you got your ratios from?

Here is a link stating RO water should not be your primary means of removing bacteria and organisms from your water

Here is a link from Foodstandards.gov.au stating bleach should be used at 25ml to 10L of water

So please, show how you represented a 1:1 ratio as not misleading.

If you don't agree with my position that's fine, but resorting to name calling, alleging I am misrepresenting my position, and then calling it 'BS' without substantiating anything is childish at best.

Edit: Oh, and tap water is stored at 60c or above to prevent bacterial growth or legionaries, but is then tempered with cold water and by law is not to be hotter than 50c, well below the pasteurisation temp for water -> as can be seen here


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## GrumpyPaul (18/9/20)

Ok children...

Don't make me put my moderator boots on.

State your case, post your links even disagree. But do it respectfully. 

There's obviously options. What's best, or better, probably comes down to opinion or personal preference. 

Please tone it down, enough with the allegations of BS and name calling.


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## Nullnvoid (18/9/20)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Ok children...
> 
> Don't make me put my moderator boots on.
> 
> ...



Ohh what?? You got a free fermentation vessel from KK AND some moderator boots???? Man, you are so lucky!


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## djebel (18/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Edit: Oh, and tap water is stored at 60c or above to prevent bacterial growth or legionaries, but is then tempered with cold water and by law is not to be hotter than 50c, well below the pasteurisation temp for water -> as can be seen here


That's rule only applies to bathroom taps. showers, etc. Kitchen, laundry, pretty much anywhere else is allowed to be full temperature. Some builders just install a single tempering valve at the outlet of the HWS to save $$$.


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## philrob (18/9/20)

I think we have gone far enough in this debate. Both sides have had a fair go at stating their positions, and I don't see that anything more will be useful.
GrumpyPaul is just doing what any moderator on any forum should do. No need to have a go at him.
If it continues with personal arguments, we'll just lock the thread.


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## Nullnvoid (18/9/20)

philrob said:


> I think we have gone far enough in this debate. Both sides have had a fair go at stating their positions, and I don't see that anything more will be useful.
> GrumpyPaul is just doing what any moderator on any forum should do. No need to have a go at him.
> If it continues with personal arguments, we'll just lock the thread.



Sorry if you think I was having a go. The only crime I committed was attempting "Witty banter"


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## GrumpyPaul (18/9/20)

Nullnvoid said:


> Sorry if you think I was having a go. The only crime I committed was attempting "*dim-witted *banter"



FTFY


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## Nullnvoid (18/9/20)

GrumpyPaul said:


> FTFY


Reported!


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## fdsaasdf (18/9/20)

GalBrew said:


> Arguing over the merits of StarSan makes me feel like it's 2010 again.


Yep, anyone advocating bleach is simply ignorant to the facts that bleach is damaging/contaminating to brewing equipment, less effective and likely more expensive.

It is also incredibly damaging to the environment. But I guess that also doesn't matter to some people.


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## kadmium (18/9/20)

fdsaasdf said:


> Yep, anyone advocating bleach is simply ignorant to the facts that bleach is damaging/contaminating to brewing equipment, less effective and likely more expensive.
> 
> It is also incredibly damaging to the environment. But I guess that also doesn't matter to some people.


Careful, you will be accused of being ignorant, full of BS and misleading if you don't drink bleach. I mean use bleach. Star San? More like SatanSan (sarcasm)


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