# Starter sanitation necessary?



## Dubzie (3/1/16)

So back when i used to brew with can kits, you would sanitize the fermenter add some hot tap water, add your can contents, fill with cold tap water then add yeast, in the 20+ kit brews over the last few years never had an infection ect...

Now i've moved on to all grain brewing and also starter making.

If the dry yeast can grow quickly enough in such a large volume of wort and fight off infection, then why cant we do the same with our starters?
I mean we pitch same amount of yeast into only 2L of wort!

Please discuss!


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## manticle (3/1/16)

I don't understand the question.
What do you want to not sanitise? Vessel you make the starter in?


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## MartinOC (3/1/16)

Anything you grow-up in your starters will increase in your main batch..including nasties.

If you've moved to AG & have spent all that time creating your wort, why risk it? In fact, I'd say be even MORE careful with your sanitary practices with your starters than before.

It doesn't take much....


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Dubzie said:


> Please discuss!


You cant be serious...surley


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## Dubzie (3/1/16)

manticle said:


> I don't understand the question.
> What do you want to not sanitise? Vessel you make the starter in?


Yea sorry, still sanitize the equipment ect, but forgo the boiling and cooling of the water and malt extract.
The missus does not like me taking over her fridge/sink trying to cool the boiling wort for the starter.

I do have a espring water filter which has a UV filter and kills 99.99% of bacteria ect in tap water.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Dubzie said:


> The missus does not like me taking over her fridge/sink trying to cool the boiling wort for the starter.


Time for a trade in then B)


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## zappa (3/1/16)

Poor sanitisation may not lead to an "infection" you can easily identify, but more often than not will lead to undesirable/off flavours in your finished product. May not be evident immediately, but will often establish itself after a few days, weeks or months after kegging or bottling. May not be an issue if you're putting a keg away every few days, but why skimp? Use the laundry sink or a bucket instead, or just do it ahead of time, cover it and let it cool at room temp. Then again, if you're the only one drinking your brew, you're not out to brew the best you can and you're happy with the finished product, keep on as you are.


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## Rocker1986 (3/1/16)

I do a sort of "no-chill" with my yeast starters, by simply boiling it in the flask on the stove, then covering it with foil and boiling again for a minute or so, then leaving it sit there until it's at room temp.

Being on broken shifts at work makes this reasonably easy though as I can boil it up in my break and by the time I'm back home and heading to bed it's usually cooled down enough to pitch the yeast into. I wouldn't leave it any longer than that though as there is a headspace in it unlike in no-chill cubes.

I've done heaps of starters this way and have not had any problems. Occasionally I will chill them down in a water bath if I can be bothered, but yeah.


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## manticle (4/1/16)

Yeast is a microorganism. You are making conditions that many microorganisms love to multiply in.

Boiling will kill the microorganisms already present, providing a blank slate. If you don't boil, you may offer other microorganisms a chance to grow big, bold and nasty tasting.

Your beer, your choice. I boil.


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## VP Brewing (4/1/16)

Dubzie said:


> The missus does not like me taking over her fridge/sink trying to cool the boiling wort for the starter.


I'm glad I own half of my fridge/sink. Otherwise making starters would be hard too.


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## danestead (4/1/16)

My understanding wasn't that yeast will multiply so quickly that it will fight off infection, rather, it will multiply quickly and out number other bacteria/yeast etc. This means there is still undesirable bacteria/wild yeasts in there but as a % it is quite small hence the flavour effect isn't noticed as much. That being said, I find it hard to believe you never had an 'infection' in your kit and kilos, rather the level of infection or undesirable bacteria/wild yeasts was low or below flavour threshold. Even when sanitising, there will/may be a level of undesirable left still alive. If there weren't, it'd be called sterilizing. This is my understanding anyway and may or may not differ.

To answer the question, should you sanitise your starters etc, yes. If not, don't invite me over for a drink haha.


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## huez (4/1/16)

why are you making yeast starters with dry yeast?


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/1/16)

huez said:


> why are you making yeast starters with dry yeast?


Its not a starter...its re-hydration... h34r:


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## Dubzie (4/1/16)

huez said:


> why are you making yeast starters with dry yeast?


I dont.. Didnt say i did


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## seamad (4/1/16)

You don't need a sink to cool it in. Just boil in your flask with some foil on the top and set aside until cool enough to pitch.


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## huez (4/1/16)

Dubzie said:


> I dont.. Didnt say i did


you only mention dry yeast in your post so one would think you were using dry yeast. A packet of dry yeast has 220billion yeast cells, a vial of liquid yeast has 100 billion when its fresh, that number obviously dropping the older it is. So you're not pitching the same amount of yeast at all, thats why you're making the starter in the first place. Making a yeast starter is when you should be extra careful about how clean and sanitised everything is. If you can't make a clean starter you won't be able to make clean beer either. Boil it or just buy more vials of yeast. I hate making starters but sometimes it must be done!


edit:billion not million


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/1/16)

huez said:


> you only mention dry yeast in your post so one would think you were using dry yeast. A packet of dry yeast has 220million yeast cells, a vial of liquid yeast has 100 million when its fresh, that number obviously dropping the older it is. So you're not pitching the same amount of yeast at all, thats why you're making the starter in the first place. Making a yeast starter is when you should be extra careful about how clean and sanitised everything is. If you can't make a clean starter you won't be able to make clean beer either. Boil it or just buy more vials of yeast. I hate making starters but sometimes it must be done!


Wyeast smack packs dont need starters as they are direct pitchable


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## huez (4/1/16)

So is white labs. Pretty sure both start with the same cell count. Why would you need to make a starter with one and not the other?


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/1/16)

Cause the internet said so


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## huez (4/1/16)

The internet strikes again.


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## Vini2ton (4/1/16)

If the missus has an issue with you using the kitchen for brewing related activities, just give her your credit-card and send her off shopping when ýou're doing it. Problem solved. Pressure cookers are great for making starter wort and bulk priming solutions. Starters are a critical control point in our operations. CCP. That means important. If you want to make starters from dried yeast, then you want to hunker down my friend. Good luck with it all.


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## Rocker1986 (4/1/16)

I don't believe dry yeast packs contain anywhere near that many billion cells. The Fermentis site suggests their dry yeast contains >6.8x109 cells per gram, or thereabouts. That's something around >70 billion per pack. I'd like to think it's more than 70 billion but 220 billion is a bit of a stretch in my mind.

I make starters with dry yeast purely for the reason that I harvest my yeast from starters as opposed to the fermenter trub. I also make them with Wyeast packs even though they state they can be direct pitched, for the same reason and to ensure I have enough viable cells at pitching time. 100 billion cells ain't gonna be 100 billion cells after 4 months in the smack pack...


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## Barge (4/1/16)

I don't see why it would be okay for an extract brewer to add a packet of yeast directly to 20L of tap water mixed with extract but it's suddenly an issue to add it to 2L and then to 20L (or whatever). 

Scenario 1. Yeast grows faster than unwanted organisms. 

Scenario 2. Yeast grows faster than unwanted organisms. And then does it again.

I can't see how that's an issue.


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## Dubzie (4/1/16)

Barge said:


> I don't see why it would be okay for an extract brewer to add a packet of yeast directly to 20L of tap water mixed with extract but it's suddenly an issue to add it to 2L and then to 20L (or whatever).
> 
> Scenario 1. Yeast grows faster than unwanted organisms.
> 
> ...


This was my thinking exactly, except i'm not using dry yeast, but rather making a starter from slurry or liquid yeast...


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## barls (4/1/16)

Dubzie said:


> This was my thinking exactly, except i'm not using dry yeast, but rather making a starter from slurry or liquid yeast...





Barge said:


> I don't see why it would be okay for an extract brewer to add a packet of yeast directly to 20L of tap water mixed with extract but it's suddenly an issue to add it to 2L and then to 20L (or whatever).
> 
> Scenario 1. Yeast grows faster than unwanted organisms.
> 
> ...


its more about preventing the presence of said unwanted organisms.
yes you can make decent beer with kits by pitching directly in.
you will make better beer with a boil and pitching the right amount of yeast.
this book covers most of the ideas behind it
Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation


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## WitWonder (4/1/16)

Barge said:


> I don't see why it would be okay for an extract brewer to add a packet of yeast directly to 20L of tap water mixed with extract but it's suddenly an issue to add it to 2L and then to 20L (or whatever).
> 
> Scenario 1. Yeast grows faster than unwanted organisms.
> 
> ...


Micro organisms that ruin beer (eg bacteria) grow at an exponentially faster rate than yeast. If you have said bacteria in your starter (then subsequent beer) your beer is ruined. Simple. Yeast will not "out grow" bacteria and somehow make a good beer regardless of the bacteria present.

For the most part, tap water in Australia is free of such contaminates so yes you can pitch your yeast straight into a kit with tap water, same applies to a starter but the issue with that is the bacteria might come with the process associated with producing the yeast, the yeast nutrient, the dried extract, vessel, etc. In other words, more variables and therefore potential sources of contaminates. 

Anything post boil (including yeast preparation) is very susceptible to an infection so sanitisation is paramount. Boiling your starter in an erlenmeyer flask is not hard. Leave it overnight with foil over the top then pitch the yeast the next day (or preferably prepare the starter beforehand, having stepped-up a couple of times so it's ready to pitch as soon as your wort is at pitching temps).


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## manticle (4/1/16)

Cost/risk/benefit analysis.

Or as witwonder said.

Presumably you moved away from kit brewing because you were looking for better results.


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## huez (4/1/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> I don't believe dry yeast packs contain anywhere near that many billion cells. The Fermentis site suggests their dry yeast contains >6.8x109 cells per gram, or thereabouts. That's something around >70 billion per pack. I'd like to think it's more than 70 billion but 220 billion is a bit of a stretch in my mind.


Thats probably mr malty leading me astray there, he suggest 20billion per gram. I won't get into that argument but its on his website under pitching rates.


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## danestead (5/1/16)

Disregard ducatiboy stu talking about direct pitching wyeast. Yes that may be possible with a very fresh packet which has been handled in the best way possible but to say that it is direct pitchable in a general sense is just going to mislead someone who does not yet have much knowledge of liquid yeasts. Liquid yeast loses viabilty very quickly as compared to dry yeast and is very sensitive to the temperature it is stored at. To mislead a less experienced brewer into thinking they can just pitch 1 packet of wyeast into a batch of beer no matter how old it is is pretty poor. You generally create a starter for liquid yeasts to end up with a caculated number of yeast ideal for the brew you are doing as this number is very often more than the viable cells in 1 wyeast packet for a standard 20ish litre 1.050 brew.


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## Dubzie (5/1/16)

What are your thoughts on using water that has been sanitized through a filter that is also UV treated?
My filter destroys more then 99.99% of bacteria in water.

Since boiling doesn't sterilize the water, nor does spraying everything with starsan.


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## manticle (5/1/16)

My thoughts are that boiling is so easy and kills the organisms most likely to spoil your beer that it is an additional step I would always take.

Does the filter remove 99.9% of yeast cells too? If so, combined with boiling and starsan, you'll have taken great precautions with minimal effort. Also you can't filter the malt you're adding - just the base water.

Why not try boiling some water, adding malt and cover? Leave at room temp for 5 days.
Do the same with filtered water/extract.

Taste in 5 days.


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