# Vegemite Taste ?



## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

In the current BYO Brew mag, a passing reference was made to an infection (or possibly production fault) with a vegemite taste (fancy Americans saying that). A similiar comment was made in a discussion on a micro in Melbourne's output.

Knowing Vegemite is a yeast extract and being an Aussie so can eat Vegemite with a spoon, please enlighten me what a vegemite infected beer might taste like (salty, yeasty .. chicken ???) and likely causes.


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## peas_and_corn (7/5/08)

caused by autolysis- if you leave beer on the yeast cake too long it will start killing itself, creating all sorts of vegemite flavours.


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## Muggus (7/5/08)

peas_and_corn said:


> caused by autolysis- if you leave beer on the yeast cake too long it will start killing itself, creating all sorts of vegemite flavours.


Just out of interest, how long would be considered 'too long'?

I've had a stout that spent over a month in primary, and it was very vegemitey from memory.


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## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

Muggus said:


> Just out of interest, how long would be considered 'too long'?
> 
> I've had a stout that spent over a month in primary, and it was very vegemitey from memory.



What, thick & black ??

autolysis is when the yeast runs out of sugars, eats the alcohol ? to sustain itself ? Do remember that from somewhere - doesn't only certain types of yeast do that ?


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## peas_and_corn (7/5/08)

That's a grey one. I personally don't leave beer on primary for longer than two weeks (sometimes 20 days), but there are people who claim that they have left their beer on primary for months with no ill effect. So... depends a lot on many different factors- one being luck! I would advise that you not leave it on primary for longer than two weeks just to be on the safe side.


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## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

> Lager comes from the German word "lagern" which means to store. A lager beer is in cold storage while it ages in the conditioning phase. Temperature influences lagers in two ways. During primary fermentation, the cooler temperature (45-55 F) prevents the formation of fruity esters by the yeast. In addition to producing fewer byproducts during the primary phase, the yeast uses the long conditioning phase to finish off residual sugars and metabolize other compounds that may give rise to off-flavors and aromas. Unfortunately, this long time with the beer in contact with the yeast can be a problem. The problem is autolysis, i.e. yeast-suicide, which can produce terrible off-flavors in the beer.



From Palmer. i knew I read it somewhere. Normally shouldn't be a problem.

edit - more Palmer



> Luckily, the propensity of yeast to autolyze is decreased by a decrease in activity and a decrease in total yeast mass. What this means to a brewer is that racking to a secondary fermenter to get the beer off the dead yeast and lowering the temperature for the long cold storage allows the beer to condition without much risk of autolysis. At a minimum, a beer that has experienced autolysis will have a burnt rubber taste and smell and will probably be undrinkable. At worst it will be unapproachable.
> 
> As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis. Autolysis is not inevitable, but it is lurking.


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## Adamt (7/5/08)

Autolysis = Self-destruction. When yeast cells bust they release their digestive enzymes and stuff and eat themselves. It happens because of old yeast cells, steep temperature changes, etc. As for the taste, it's vegemite but less salty.


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## Kai (7/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Knowing Vegemite is a yeast extract and being an Aussie so can eat Vegemite with a spoon, please enlighten me what a vegemite infected beer might taste like.



Vegemite.


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## brendanos (7/5/08)

Burnt rubber is an interesting one. Good description of my 1yo lambic!


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## Jazzafish (7/5/08)

Try it for yourself...

Ingredients:
1 teaspoon of Vegimite
1 bottle of your best home brewed beer

Method
Take your favourite beer glass and add a teaspoon of vegimite
Pour your best home brew over the vegimite

ENJOY!
:icon_vomit: 

Either rack your beer off the yeast, or the yeast off the beer when lagering


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## Kai (7/5/08)

brendanos said:


> Burnt rubber is an interesting one. Good description of my 1yo lambic!



That was more like rubber bands though. We'll try it again next year


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## dr K (7/5/08)

Not certain about a Vegemite "taste" as this is predominatly salty but ther certainly is a vegemite aroma to some beers.
I do not know what causes it, but is seems to be limited to darker beers and I strongly suspect that the character comes from oxidation of compounds found in darker beers. This aroma, by the way, I have often encountered in less than fresh commercial examples of darker beers as well as home brewed examples thus my suspiscion that it is an oxidative reaction rather than autolysis..which is actually quite hard to get and given the production line techniques of commercial breweries virtually impossible to get in a commercial beer.

K


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## Kai (8/5/08)

A few weeks ago I had a belhaven wee heavy that was a perfect example of vegemite in a glass. I've had it in lighter beers but only on a homebrew level. Your postulation intrigues me though, I'd like to discuss it in more depth but it's late and the beers I've had are inhibiting rational discourse. Maybe tomorrow


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## warrenlw63 (8/5/08)

It was a very apparent and common symptom when we used to judge Imperial Stouts at Club comps.

I also used to pick up a similar trait in Grand Ridge's Supershine.

My money would be on some form of autolysis or stressed yeast too.

Warren -


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## Adamt (8/5/08)

Dr K:

I very much doubt the notion of oxidation causing vegemite. If this were the case vegemite would be a hell of a lot cheaper, for starters .

I think the higher apparency you have noticed is due to the normally higher levels of alcohol in stouts (more stress on the yeast - faster autolysis), or due to bad yeast health (many inexperienced K&Kers seem to favour stouts as they hide off flavours better).


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## Plastic Man (8/5/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> I also used to pick up a similar trait in Grand Ridge's Supershine.



We bought a few cases of Grand Ridge's Moonshine for our work beer club a few years back. I enjoyed it, but one of the pommy guys said he reconed it tasted like Bovril. After he made the comment it was pretty noticable. 

Just as a note - I kegged a beer on Saturday that had been sitting in primary for 6 weeks due to the fact I was away 3 weeks and then flat out for 2 weeks when I got back so didn't get around to cleaning a keg out and doing the transfer till last w/e. I was a bit worried about autolysis but the beer was clean with no hints of vegimite. It was sitting at a low temp though which would have helped. Definately not soemthing to make a habit of though...


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## clay (8/5/08)

I wondered where the vegemite taste came from as I had a brew from a micro in the SW a while ago that was loaded with it. Couldn't even finish the sample glass


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## brendanos (9/5/08)

I copped a surprisingly meaty flavour from the lees of a craft brewed barleywine today, vaguely vegemite, though the flavour wasn't discernable in the beer.


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## Kai (9/5/08)

Meaty has foundations in sulphur compounds too, i have a brown ale fresh in bottle that exhibited similar flavours through fermentation and conditioning. Gone now fortunately.


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## tcraig20 (20/5/08)

Vegemite is made by the autolysis of brewer's yeast at elevated temperatures followed by vacuum evaporation/concentration. 

Given that, I'd say autolysis is the most likely cause of vegemite flavours in beer.


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## drsmurto (26/5/08)

Dropped in to the Lovely Valley Beverage Factory on Sunday on the way home from a weekend of camping down at Deep Creek. Mate of mine has been there a few times and wanted to stop in for a tasting and to grab some beer. I reluctantly agreed as i heard it was an extract micro.

Tasted their Creamy Stout and Irish Stout - having had the export Guinness on Saturday night followed by my AG version so it was fresh in our minds.

The irish stout tasted like someone had stirred a spoonful of vegemite into a glass of West End. :icon_vomit: 

Probably should have said something but the brewer is an old bloke who probably wouldnt understand. $48 a carton for extract based beer.


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## chris.taylor.98 (26/5/08)

I brewed a Weizenbock about 6 months back and after about 3 months it started to develop a slight Vegemite flavour ( not really that prominent but noticeable in the finish ). I was using the Wyeast 3333 (German Wheat).

I have had some since ( about 2 months later ) but the Vegemite flavour has seemed to have subsided again.


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## Acasta (12/11/12)

I split a pack of 1469 on 2/8/12 and left it in the fridge. Today upon letting it warm and adding it to a starter I got some vegemite smells coming from it. After I bit of reading, I figured its autolysis of the yeast. Assuming that not all the cells are dead, I've pitched it into a 500ml starter anyway and will see what results.
Any thoughts on this? Will it be ok after producing some more cells?


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## Yob (12/11/12)

Acasta said:


> Any thoughts on this?



I pulled a small jar out of the fridge yesterday that was starting to darken on the top (indicative of mortality) I was going to pitch it to a starter but decided to "rinse" the yeast as I would do from re-using trub to remove the dead cells. Reminds me to go pull it out of the fridge again and get the starter ready  

:icon_cheers:


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## dmclaugh (18/4/14)

Hi peoples,
I made an AG 6 weeks ago from which I rinsed the yeast from the trub and placed in a preserving jar in the fridge. I sterilised the jars etc, and currently am in the middle of doing a yeast starter. I smelled the preserving jar and it smelled like Vegemite, and smelling the starter after a few hours, it smells like beer and is fermenting fine. I'm assuming it's ok, but am interested to hear how the beers went when people have brewed using yeast having these characteristics.
Thanks in adavnce


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## philmud (18/4/14)

I brewed a stout a couple of weeks ago, out of the fermenter I got coffee/choc/roasty malt - 2 people I gave a small sample to both said Vegemite (independently)


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## geneabovill (19/4/14)

Maybe we could write to the BJCP and have Vegemite Stout added as a style. 

Could possibly call it 'Australian Breakfast Ale' or something..


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## Midnight Brew (19/4/14)

dmclaugh said:


> Hi peoples,
> I made an AG 6 weeks ago from which I rinsed the yeast from the trub and placed in a preserving jar in the fridge. I sterilised the jars etc, and currently am in the middle of doing a yeast starter. I smelled the preserving jar and it smelled like Vegemite, and smelling the starter after a few hours, it smells like beer and is fermenting fine. I'm assuming it's ok, but am interested to hear how the beers went when people have brewed using yeast having these characteristics.
> Thanks in adavnce


Sounds like the yeast started consuming themselves, those damn cannibal yeasties! Should be okay now its in a starter and ferementing but could have less then predicted viability.

On the subject of jars of yeast, I found a jar at the back of the kitchen fridge yesterday that had a compact brown layer of yeast, a white layer of yeast and the rest was amber coloured water. Looked at the date on the jar and it had been hidden there 18, months. Opened it up and smelt like vegemite and yeast. Tipped it out and cleaned the jar and put it in the dishwasher.


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## dmclaugh (19/4/14)

The starter finished, I poured a bit into a glass, smelt fine and tasted it. Tasted like beer so I pitched it. Hope it works because the wort tasted sensational!
Thanks for the responses peoples and will follow up when the brew is up for tasting.

Cheers
Dan


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## peas_and_corn (20/4/14)

You shouldn't pitch a starter when it's finished, it's best to pitch when it's active as that's when vitality is highest.


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## dmclaugh (30/6/14)

Just to round out the conversation in case others come across this. It's been 3 months since (man time flies) and all I can say is that this brew turned out to be the best I have done to date! So as far as I'm concerned, even if it does smell like vegemite, as long as the starter ferments, then the yeast is good to go. I actually have more yeast that is older and does visibly show signs of autolysis (blackish layer on yeast cake), but I'm of the opinion that if it ferments in the starter then the there is still viable yeast so that should be right to make brew #4. I'm planning to do the same recipe I made in the next 3 weeks, so I'll let you know how that goes...


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## Lionman (9/8/16)

Necro sorry.

My first keg has developed some vegemite flavours, but it hasn't been treated well.

I accidentally froze it in the keg (was fine tuning the setup, was lack of air circulation which I have fixed now.) I though it was empty so pulled it out. Went to clean it a week later and realised there was still a few litres in it. I chilled it again and hooked it back up but it definitely has a vegemite tinge to it now.

Would this have been caused by yeast activity in the keg after it came back up to room temp?

Think I will ditch it, I don't think it's drinkable, I pushed through a glass and I don't think I can do another one haha.


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