# Electricians....question For You?



## pokolbinguy (17/1/10)

G'day folks,

I have a quick electrical question...and yes before anyone jumps on the "don't do it you will kill yourself bandwagon" ....which I assume people will (its ok LC I compelety understand where you are coming from with those sort of posts.)...anyway....I am hoping to get a fermenting fridge ...to ferment in ....but where I want to put it there is no powerpoint....its in my kitchen where there is a little wall next to the kitchen fridge...it protrudes out from the back wall where the fridge backs up to...which there is powerpoint for the kitchen fridge obviously....on the other side (where I want my ferment fridge) there is a hole in the wall (from previous tenants) that is roughly the same size as a power point....so my though was to "piggy back" a power point off the circuit that runs the kitchen fridge and mount a new powerpoint in leiu of the ugly tennis ball sized hole.

Now my question is.....would you "piggy back" the cable straight out of the current power point where the current cable wired into the current power point and loop through the wall to the new point (the framing is metal...so not sure what access is there for cabling) ....or would you put a splitter in the cable (say in the roof) and run the cable to the new point from there???

Also is anyone in Adelaide a leco??? Would love to be able to do this myself..and if I did would get a leco to check what I am doing/done before it is turned on at the board but if someone is willing to do it for a case of beer the "right" way then that would be even better. But also being a tennant I dont want to be in the position of the owner saying "who did this...are they qualified" etc etc

Anyway any help would be great.

Cheers, Pok

Note: I'm not a dickhead hillbilly "just stick wires here there and every where" type of guy and realise that electricity can kill me, my gf, my beer fridge and even the local cat if I get it wrong..thus this thread...so please don't just say "don't do it you will kill yourself ". Honest and real advise is what I am after


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## Screwtop (17/1/10)

pokolbinguy said:


> G'day folks,
> 
> I have a quick electrical question...and yes before anyone jumps on the "don't do it you will kill yourself bandwagon" ....which I assume people will (its ok LC I compelety understand where you are coming from with those sort of posts.)...anyway....I am hoping to get a fermenting fridge ...to ferment in ....but where I want to put it there is no powerpoint....its in my kitchen where there is a little wall next to the kitchen fridge...it protrudes out from the back wall where the fridge backs up to...which there is powerpoint for the kitchen fridge obviously....on the other side (where I want my ferment fridge) there is a hole in the wall (from previous tenants) that is roughly the same size as a power point....so my though was to "piggy back" a power point off the circuit that runs the kitchen fridge and mount a new powerpoint in leiu of the ugly tennis ball sized hole.
> 
> ...



Pok, what you propose is really shonky and rough and outside of the regs. Didn't tell you not to do it. My dickhead detector went off the scale when I read this though :lol:

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Gout (17/1/10)

do it do it do it 

Just be sure that if (it most likly wont) it was to cause a fire, and they find it was not installed by a leco - insurance may not pay up, then you would be in a spot of bother

I doubt it would cost much to have it done... or use a ext lead?


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## newguy (17/1/10)

I'm in Canada so I obviously can't comment on the Australian electrical code, but it's probably similar to the Canadian code, so I'll spout a bit. It's ultimately up to you what you want to do, code or not.

It's code here for the fridge outlet to be the only only circuit on that breaker. That said, a fridge doesn't draw a lot of current and a single breaker should support two of them.

It's against code anywhere to "bury" a connection point. The electrical box that houses the splice/connection between two cables must be accessible. You can't bury it behind drywall or any other place where it can't be accessed. An attic/crawlspace is okay.

All electrical outlets have two sets of connections, either screws or push-in style (usually both). The fridge outlet in place now, assuming it's the only outlet on that breaker, should have a spare set open. Instead of splicing into that cable as you wondered about, it's way easier to just tap into that outlet. Just run the cable from that outlet over to your new one. Just be careful about running the cable through the metal studs - there has to be some sort of grommet in place to prevent the cable from wearing through.

_The big issue is with insurance/liability. If there ever was a fire and your wiring handiwork is discovered (assuming it is against your electrical code to have more than one outlet on the fridge's breaker), there will be no insurance coverage. You'd be responsible for damages._


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## pokolbinguy (17/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> Pok, what you propose is really shonky and rough and outside of the regs. Didn't tell you not to do it. My dickhead detector went off the scale when I read this though :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



Thats ok Screwy...thats the whole reason I asked...any idea how much it would cost to pay a leco to do it properly...given there is a circuit there and only a short cable run??

Thanks for the honesty.

Cheers, Pok

EDIT: After reading these replies already...I will cough up the cash to get a leco to put it in properly...be that a fellow brewer who s qaulified and payment is beer or cash to a tradie...last thing I want is something going wrong and it being my fault and insurance coming to have my balls.

for the mean time an extension cord around the wall may be the solution...

Thanks for the words of wisdom so far guys.


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## MarkMc (17/1/10)

pokolbinguy said:


> Thats ok Screwy...thats the whole reason I asked...any idea how much it would cost to pay a leco to do it properly...given there is a circuit there and only a short cable run??
> 
> Thanks for the honesty.
> 
> Cheers, Pok



If the kitchen point has 2 cables, then take one out and put that in to the new point, and get a new bit of cable to join them upm keeping the ring main. well thats how i used to do it in the UK. not sure about aussie regs, but UK ones are pretty strict. Fomr my experience of aussie leco's (only 1) it would be safer to do it yourself.


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## porky (17/1/10)

newguy said:


> I'm in Canada so I obviously can't comment on the Australian electrical code, but it's probably similar to the Canadian code, so I'll spout a bit. It's ultimately up to you what you want to do, code or not.



You are right to say you can't comment on the Australian electrical code.
It is completely different from yours. 
You use 115 volt don't you?
Here is 220, different altogether, know nothings should stay away from it. 
Another thing....I have several rentals...I would not be pleased if a tennant should chose to rewire MY house on their own.


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## bum (17/1/10)

budwiser said:


> You are right to say you can't comment on the Australian electrical code.
> It is completely different from yours.
> You use 115 volt don't you?



They're 15amp over there if memory serves. Doesn't really change anything except your rhetoric.


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## Screwtop (17/1/10)

pokolbinguy said:


> Thats ok Screwy...thats the whole reason I asked...any idea how much it would cost to pay a leco to do it properly...given there is a circuit there and only a short cable run??
> 
> Thanks for the honesty.
> 
> ...




Glad you took it in the vein intended mate. If you can run external (not inside the wall) from the existing PP to where you want the new PP - grab a GPO (double) and 2 x mounting blocks, some 2.5mm twin and earth cable, 16mm Grey PVC Electrical Conduit and some convoluted conduit (length depends on distance). Then call a lecky for a labour only job, should be around $75 per hr, might be less for cash no invoice. He will have a few sadles etc if needed. Buying the stuff at retail may end up costing more than having the sparkie do it all. Offer cash!

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Screwtop (17/1/10)

bum said:


> They're 15amp over there if memory serves. Doesn't really change anything except your rhetoric.




Voltage schmoltage, how does a little 30,000V - 50,000V static discharge feel when exiting your car in dry windy weather. It's the current that kills!  

Screwy


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## porky (17/1/10)

bum said:


> They're 15amp over there if memory serves. Doesn't really change anything except your rhetoric.



Another great example of someone talking that knows NOTHING of which he speaks.

WTF?....amps are not relevant to the issue.

but you would know that wouldn't you.

Or maybe not.

scary that advise like this is given out.....and with a stupid attitude as well. (referring to your stupid rhetoric comment)


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## bum (17/1/10)

I work around live HV cables on a daily basis. Voltage ain't shit.

Shit, they make 2 million volt tasers. Wanna know why they don't fry you instantly? They're only 0.002amperes.


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## Screwtop (17/1/10)

bum said:


> I work around live HV cables on a daily basis. Voltage ain't shit.
> 
> Shit, they make 2 million volt tasers. Wanna know why they don't fry you instantly? They're only 0.002amperes.




hehe, have melted a few shifting spanners dropping them accross 1,800A buss bars. Blam...............splatter..........gone :lol:

Screwy


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## bum (17/1/10)

You should have picked them up before they melted. You need to respect your tools.

( h34r: )


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## pokolbinguy (17/1/10)

I was always under the impression it was the amps that gives the thump...not the voltage....I could be wrong tho (considering this is from memory..and at times it is not a very good memory)..but a million volts and one millionth of an amp wont do shit...is this right?? I assume signs that say "beware forty billion volts enclosed" are more to scare people ...but its the 20 billion amps enclosed that will kill???


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## LethalCorpse (18/1/10)

Guys, please stop the pissing contest about voltage versus current. None of you (except newguy) know what you're talking about, and you're speaking as though you think you do. 

Budwiser, you're right, newguy doesn't know the particular regulations for South Australia, however, he knows far more about electricity and wiring than you do. Yes, I can say that categorically. Their supply voltage is different, but many of the wiring rules are the same wherever you are, because the justification behind them doesn't change. 115VAC, contrary to popular belief, will kill you almost as easily as 240VAC.

Now, for all of you, statements like "the voltage doesn't matter, it's the amps that kill you", or vice versa, mean absolutely nothing. Voltage and current are inextricably interdependent, for a given resistance. V=IR is a constant relationship (anyone who's read to the end of the chapter will please shut up about phase while I'm explaining the basics). Now, the folks arguing that current is the all-important variable are correct, to an extent - the heart will go into fibrillation when a certain amount of current is passed through it. This current, however, is incredibly low - about 60mA for AC, about 300mA for DC. The reason that you can apply fairly high voltages without reaching these currents is because your skin resistance is very high - dry skin will present upwards of 100 kilohms. This high resistance will prevent a high current from flowing, even if the voltage is fairly high. Wet skin is a much better conductor, at about 1kohms, which is why it's much easier to electrocute yourself when wet. 

Another important factor in electrocution is source impedance - the resistance, inductance and capacitance in the wires, transformers, etc of the thing delivering the voltage to the body. Statements like "Shit, they make 2 million volt tasers. Wanna know why they don't fry you instantly? They're only 0.002amperes" are approaching the truth, but not quite. The reason they may only deliver 0.002 amperes is because they have a very high source impedance. That source impedance, when added in series with the body's resistance, means that only a very small current will flow. The terminal voltage, if measured when connected across a human body, will be very much lower than that 2million volts. In fact, it will be much lower than 240VAC. Most of the voltage is across the high resistance in the source, because a voltage is shared proportionally across resistors in series (90% of the resistance sees 90% of the voltage). 

Another issue is capacity. A static discharge off a car is a very high voltage, and has fairly low impedance if you touch metal, but the number of electrons stored in the car which can pass to you is finite, and small. As they're transferred, the voltage drops dramatically, and quickly. It is only several thousand volts for the barest fraction of a second, and therefore not able to kill you. 

So, yes, it's the current that kills you, but you can't have a current without a voltage, and the whole thing depends on the skin resistance and the source resistance. You might as well say voltage and current don't mean squat, it's the resistance that kills you. The entire system must be considered as exactly that - a system. The behaviour of all components therein must be considered if you want to work out what's going to happen when you throw the switch. Voltages, resistances, capacitances, stored charges, inductances, source impedances, skin moisture, health of the subject and the present phases of the moon. 

Mains supplies, whatever voltage they are, have very low source impedances. They're designed to drive large currents, and any impedance would drag their voltage down, so they would not skip a beat whilst driving several amps into a human body. They'll most likely kill you if you screw it up. So don't.

Pok, I don't know how the wiring rules require you to connect your fridge - I'm not an electrician. I would almost certainly wire it as you've suggested - piggyback off the existing socket. There are probably a million reasons this is the wrong thing to do, newguy's suggestion of a fridge requiring its own circuit may be one of them (though my fridge doesn't have its own circuit, and you can plug in a fridge anywhere you like). A sparky is qualified to perform wiring according to the regulations. I've met many sparkies who don't know a damn thing about electricity, but they know the wiring rules. If you hire them to do the job, you have a reasonable expectation that they'll do it correctly. They'll probably do exactly the same thing you or I might do, whether or not the wiring rules allow it, but if it screws up you have paperwork to blame them for it. It's entirely up to you whether you chance it or hire a sparky for the peace of mind.


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## Gout (18/1/10)

I wouldnt ignore such a sign.... and its more than just to scare you. Volts jump, current thumps. neither are good really.

They use higher voltage on the lines to lower current and hence power loss (I^2.R) etc etc etc

end of story is power is a silent killer and unless you know exactly what your doing - dont do it

edit : LC post above covers it


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## pokolbinguy (18/1/10)

Guess I'll get a leco in then


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## avaneyk (18/1/10)

+1000 to what Lethal has said above.

Polkolbinguy - FWIW I've got a back to back powerpoint in my house - it was like that when I bought the place. My girlfriend's dad is a sparky and when he saw it he just said "Oh they've piggybacked it" but wasn't worried. That said though, it'd be best to get advice directly from a sparky who will know the rules.

[Edit: typos]


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## rude (18/1/10)

Hey Polk Turn the main switch off 

Use a meter to chech that the power is off before you touch (very important)

Then run some TPS from the existing GPO to you're new one

Weather you you do it in the roof space or from another GPO doesnt matter

Hopefully you havent allready got a million points on that cct but I doubt it

Make sure you match the wire colours & when screwing the GPO in you dont screw it into the cable


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## rude (18/1/10)

Hey Polk how many GPO fuses are there 2? (if you are a sparky & work on it you are suppose to bring it up to standards ie RCD )

Probably 1 fuse for lighting

Thats if its an older house most homes these days have more ccts due to derating factors on insulation of the cable due to many circumstances such as cables installed in groups or within 150mm of cieling space deemed to be in insulation

The SAA Wiring rules what a pusser

If I was over there mate Id give you a hand but you do null void insurance if it is bodgie

Having said all that if you are half handy & ask around this seems a very easy job of paralleling another GPO on to this cct


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## Dunno (18/1/10)

Hey Pok

As several in the know have suggested, I would get a licensed sparky on the job if only to cover your arse. There are too many variables to look at and if you are not aware of them it can cause problems. eg The wires to the existing outlet for your fridge are only designed to handle a rated current, usually 10amps max load per standard outlet. Some fridge outlets are wired individually from the switchboard - so if another appliance trips a circuit breaker, your fridge keeps running. Therefore the wiring may only be there to cater for a 10amp load. Piggybacking off this outlet may be fine for the fridge to run normally as the 2 fridges will use less than 10amps. However problems can occur randomly, eg if a master dropout fuse on the HV distribution network blows, you can be left with power supply but at a very low voltage. As Lethal mention earlier, Voltage, Current and Resistance are related. If a fridge motor is getting reduced voltage, it will draw more current to compensate, ie if the volts drop by a power of 10 (240 down to 24), the current will increase by a power of 10. This can lead to the wiring drawing too much current and heating up/burning out/catching fire. Before this point a circuit breaker or fuse should go. If this is the wrong size in the first place, then you may have a problem. 
For the record, I'm not an electrician but work in an office where everyone else is either an electrician or an electrical engineer, I'm just their bitch. But this is what they tell me so I understand why to tell members of the public to call a sparky. If there are any qualified tradies about, please feel free to let me know if I'm off the mark.

Dunno


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## Screwtop (18/1/10)

LethalCorpse said:


> Guys, please stop the pissing contest about voltage versus current. None of you (except newguy) know what you're talking about, and you're speaking as though you think you do.



Those years of study..........wasted..............I'm gutted....learn't nothing. Think I'll throw myself off a bridge (rectifier) :lol:

Screwy

Edit: To Qualify: Not a sparky, worked with much higher voltages/current.


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## Back Yard Brewer (18/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> Those years of study..........wasted..............I'm gutted....learn't nothing. Think I'll throw myself off a bridge (rectifier) :lol:
> 
> Screwy




Relax, don't worry - have a homebrew craftbrew!!




Now who was it that said that <_< 

BYB


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## Screwtop (18/1/10)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> Relax, don't worry - have a homebrew!!




<_< You know there are still 4 days to go :angry: 

Screwy


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## Zwickel (18/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> Those years of study..........wasted..............I'm gutted....learn't nothing. Think I'll throw myself off a bridge (rectifier) :lol:
> 
> Screwy


hahaha...Screwy.....no way, dont do that.....not for that reason 

Just take this thread for entertainment, lay back, relax and enjoy it.....where are the chips?

:lol:


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## Screwtop (18/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> hahaha...Screwy.....no way, dont do that.....not for that reason
> 
> Just take this thread for entertainment, lay back, relax and enjoy it.....where are the chips?
> 
> :lol:




They're in the Wave :lol: 

Last OT post promise, having too much fun.

Screwy


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

If there is a hole in the wall and there will be a fridge on either side, why don't you use an extension cord?


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## LethalCorpse (18/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> Voltage schmoltage, how does a little 30,000V - 50,000V static discharge feel when exiting your car in dry windy weather. It's the current that kills!
> 
> Screwy


sorry, screwy, but this one earnt you a place in my last post. You were probably taking the piss, but it's still rubbish.


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## LethalCorpse (18/1/10)

Dunno said:


> If a fridge motor is getting reduced voltage, it will draw more current to compensate, ie if the volts drop by a power of 10 (240 down to 24), the current will increase by a power of 10.


Nope, this doesn't happen. If you halve the voltage, most things will draw half the current. They don't have the brains to compensate. The general exception is switchmode power supplies - if designed to do so, switchmode supplies will draw twice the current to keep their outputs constant with a reduced supply.


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## yardy (18/1/10)

MarkMc said:


> Fomr my experience of aussie leco's (only 1) it would be safer to do it yourself.




classic, this thread has it all :lol: 

thanks for the laugh pok, start one on thermal lancing so i can get involved  

cheers


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

LethalCorpse said:


> Nope, this doesn't happen. If you halve the voltage, most things will draw half the current. They don't have the brains to compensate. The general exception is switchmode power supplies - if designed to do so, switchmode supplies will draw twice the current to keep their outputs constant with a reduced supply.



Wow... Wrong. LC whats going on?

When electric motors are subjected to voltages, below the nameplate rating, some of the characteristics will change slightly and others will change more dramatically. A basic point is, to drive a fixed mechanical load connected to the shaft, a motor must draw a fixed amount of power from the power line. The amount of power the motor draws is roughly related to the voltage times current (amps). Thus, when voltage gets low, the current must get higher to provide the same amount of power.

Of course that is assuming that the load on the compressor is fixed... I'm not a fridgie.


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## QldKev (18/1/10)

Rob2 said:


> Wow... Wrong. LC whats going on?
> 
> When electric motors are subjected to voltages, below the nameplate rating, some of the characteristics will change slightly and others will change more dramatically. A basic point is, to drive a fixed mechanical load connected to the shaft, a motor must draw a fixed amount of power from the power line. The amount of power the motor draws is roughly related to the voltage times current (amps). Thus, when voltage gets low, the current must get higher to provide the same amount of power.
> 
> Of course that is assuming that the load on the compressor is fixed... I'm not a fridgie.





You both are correct... but you must understand what you are saying.

If the voltage drops then yes the current flowing will also drop, basically as LC describes, it is know as Ohm's Law.
BUT... if you need to achieve the same output, in the case of driving the fixed mechanical load at the same speed, then at a lower voltage you would need to exceed the original current to achieve this. To do this a reduced resistance would need to be introduced.


Also in the how many GPO per line debate, in Australia it is illegal to use cabling that is capable of carrying a current less than that of the protection circuit (fuse/circuit breaker). So the idea of a fridge circuit being less than that of the circuit breaker is not realistic. By adding more GPO in line you can never damage the wiring as the circuit break should trip prior to the wire being overloaded. The more GPO inline the more of a load, so you may result in the breaker tripping more often. An electrician *should* determine the current load of a circuit prior to adding more load; and if necessary run a separate circuit for the new GPO.


I would consider using an electrician to install the new GPO as by doing it your self is not only illegal; but should a fire be caused by incorrect wiring your insurance will have a way out of paying.

EDIT: I am not an electrician, the above is my understanding of loads from working with many electrcians over the years.

QldKev


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## technocat (18/1/10)

yardy said:


> classic, this thread has it all :lol:
> thanks for the laugh pok, start one on thermal lancing so i can get involved
> cheers



Yep the laws of Gaus, Maxwell, Lenz, Kirchoff, Ohm, going down the path of no return. Going on memory I think five double GPO's max on each circuit.

<_<


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## wakkatoo (18/1/10)

subscribed  

Not a leccy, don't know one (wish I did), vaguely remember some electrical stuff from high school and I have a house with power points in it. Guess that makes me as qualified as many others on here :lol: 

Not going to offer any opinion other than to say this thread seems to be running close to point 4 in the new guidelines that everyome is supposed to have read....

carry on....this thread will make my planning day much more enjoyable!


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## LethalCorpse (18/1/10)

oops, posting before coffee, and too long since I dealt with AC motors. Yep, the current goes up if you drop the voltage,. Not true for a whole lot of other things, though, certainly not anything with a resistive load (a motor is a largely inductive load). plenty of people assume that, in all situations, if voltage goes down, current goes up, hence my reaction


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## komodo (18/1/10)

Interesting thread...

IMO if you need to ask questions your not competent enough to be doing the job call in the professionals. I've done minor electrical works in my house - but mostly its just been changing over a light fitting, updating GPOs to clipsal 2000 series (every room seems to have a different brand / style of power point and light switch - and some rooms have several different styles) as I paint/renovate each room. 
Also being that you are in a rental property consult the landlord / real estate agent.

As for north america I believe that some of their kitchen and laundry circuits are 220/240V? And in the UK I believe that on commercial building sites the voltage is all 115V? I know in most new houses there is dedicated circuits for fridges and freezers. and I believe down here in Vic they are supplying 3 phase to most new houses 43amps a phase. oven and light, shed and general power, ac. r w b respectively. its only starting to come in because they cant keep up with the demand and dont want to upgrade the suppy because of cost factor. so limitting customer is easy and cheap. I know my parents place has 3 phase 120amps per phase and it cost them a fortune and thats how its wired. Causes some confusion though when theres been something happen to the lines and only one phase has gone out - lights are on but no TV for example.

Newguys post has me interested as doing renos on my place I'm finding concealed junction boxes all over the place like a mad womans shit. I can tell exactly where the original wiring was done because its mickey mouse. Everything is perfect - then someone who thought they were an electrician has gone up there and installed ceiling fans and down lights and additional power points (and ran power to an out building by running the power cable about 200mm deep without even conduit!)... Lets just say that its "interesting" and I've had an electrician mate come and disconnect anything that was dangerous and he is going to come back when he gets 5 minutes to install a safety switch and tidy up all the add on wiring.


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## pokolbinguy (18/1/10)

Wow this thread got damn indepth over night.


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## Frank (18/1/10)

Pok
Lots of good points to take in.
But first things first, it's not your house. Call your agent and ask them to pay for it, it is a reasonable request. It is all tax deductible to the owner.


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## pokolbinguy (18/1/10)

Boston said:


> Pok
> Lots of good points to take in.
> But first things first, it's not your house. Call your agent and ask them to pay for it, it is a reasonable request. It is all tax deductible to the owner.



Good idea. I think in the short term I will just run an extension lead around the corner, I'll fix it to the top of the skirting board with some of those "3M" stye cable clips to keep it neat and tidy...will save me modifying anything at all. Putting the GPO in was a sort of spur of the moment idea considering that there is a hole in the wall that needs to be fixed....then again it was here when we move in so not my responsibility.

As for it not being my house....thats a damn good point guys, I had forgotten this...so used to being in my family home where I can do what ever the hell I want. Last thing I want is to piss off the landlord etc...so will stick to the ext lead...and it will be cheaper anyway!!

Cheers, Pok


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## MarkBastard (18/1/10)

Good thread.

Even if you don't plan to do the work yourself it can be good to know the reasoning behind these things so that you can make sure the sparky you have hired is doing the right job, or you can estimate how much work there is for a sparky.

I've always wondered a similar thing myself so my bed side table power point comes through a conduit from the corner of the room. I'd rather it be piggy backed off the other bedside table power point so the conduit runs behind the bed where it can't be seen. I always wondered if power points can be piggy backed in this way.

I still don't really know after reading the thread. There's a bit of interesting but slightly off topic information in its place. Going back to the original question, is this a done practise? Are all points supposed to be wired back to the circuit breakers on their own wire?

Also I have 12V lights in my roof and some of the transformers have blown. These are hard wired. It is annoying to think I'll need and electrician to fix this and then more could blow and I'd be up for the cost again. I'd rather wire new ones in myself. But what I'd like to know is if it's possible to have them wired into plugs that sit inside the roof so that they are no longer hard wired. If so do they have to be the regular power point styles ones, or can they be like computer / UPS power cables with female / male ends (so that it's less bulky).


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## Gout (18/1/10)

I am not a leco but my mate who is wired my house, and there is more than one power point per circuit. ( i dont know the number or limits)


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## komodo (18/1/10)

I think thats a very good idea Pok!


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Are all points supposed to be wired back to the circuit breakers on their own wire?



no.



Mark^Bastard said:


> is if it's possible to have them wired into plugs that sit inside the roof so that they are no longer hard wired. If so do they have to be the regular power point styles ones, or can they be like computer / UPS power cables with female / male ends (so that it's less bulky).



Yes it is possible, that is how lighting is done in commercial ceilings. They are not regular power points though... They are single outlets without switches.

12V downlights would need to have a lead fitted by an electrician, unless you could find lights with plugs already fitted... I have not seen any, but that is not to say they don't exist


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## MarkBastard (18/1/10)

Rob2 said:


> 12V downlights would need to have a lead fitted by an electrician, unless you could find lights with plugs already fitted... I have not seen any, but that is not to say they don't exist



What I was thinking was if I had a sparkie install these plugs, whenever a transformer blows I could wire up a new transformer myself (like I do with a fridgemate) and just plug it in. I'd be more comfortable doing this than wiring up a 'live' wire.

Or I could take a few transformers down to my brother in laws place who lives an hour from me and get him to wire just those up. He is reluctant to come up here and work for free but if I took a simple job like that down to him he'd do it.


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> What I was thinking was if I had a sparkie install these plugs, whenever a transformer blows I could wire up a new transformer myself (like I do with a fridgemate) and just plug it in. I'd be more comfortable doing this than wiring up a 'live' wire.
> 
> Or I could take a few transformers down to my brother in laws place who lives an hour from me and get him to wire just those up. He is reluctant to come up here and work for free but if I took a simple job like that down to him he'd do it.



You could do that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

Ok..there no general hard and fast rule to how many power outlets you can have on a circuit, EXCEPT for 15Amp ccts, then you may only have 1

It is up to the electrician to work out how to spread out the GPO"s between CCT' as the max limit is 10Amps. BAsically you dont put Laundries and Kitchens on the same cct, as the total current of the appliances is to great...

Now, back to Polks issue, YES, all he needs to do is run wiring from the existing power point to the new one, simple, and thats what a sparky would do. trust me sparkies are lazy and wont make work for themselves


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## komodo (18/1/10)

Something like this mark?







as for transformers I believe you can get them with a 240V male plug on them for things like lighing in crystal cabinets etc. I'm 99% sure I've seen them at bunnings possibly as a kit though with light and transformer.


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## komodo (18/1/10)

I'd be questioning why are you blowing transformers up so regularly? 

Stu is on the money but Pok doesnt own the house was more the point I was making.
I am supprised to learn that only one point can be one a 15 amp circuit though! I didnt know that before. Makes sence though.


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ok..there no general hard and fast rule to how many power outlets you can have on a circuit, EXCEPT for 15Amp ccts, then you may only have 1



Yes there are... That was one of the changes in the new wiring rules.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

ATM I cant find my damn wiring rules book, so i cant quote the exact text


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> ATM I cant find my damn wiring rules book, so i cant quote the exact text



Table C8


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

whats it say..

Still cant find my book


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## MarkBastard (18/1/10)

Komodo said:


> I'd be questioning why are you blowing transformers up so regularly?



Brand new place (well 1.5 years old now) filled with 12V downlights. Seriously a room that would take 1 normal light takes 4 of these downlights. There must be over 50 in the whole place. Funny thing is I've had as many bulbs blow as I have had transformers blow. There's about 3 transformers that are blown (a working bulb installed on the transformer won't work so I assume the transformer is blown). I've had about 3 bulbs blow in the same time. The bulbs do last a long time but the transformers seem a bit crappy. Perhaps it's the case of them dying early on or lasting a while, like manufacturing faults or something like that, as they all died fairly early on and none have since. Other ones right next to them have been fine.

Just one of those things. Wouldn't be a drama except you shouldn't need a sparkie to affectively change a light bulb :-(


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

Are they getting hot ??


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> whats it say..
> 
> Still cant find my book



I can't paste the table, but...
"Guidance on the loading of points per final subcircuit"
Contribution of each point (A) (sum must not exceed rating of each circuit breaker)
10A single or multiphase socket outlets

Blah, blah, blah....

Each single 10A socket outlet counts toward one amp, a lighting point counts toward half an amp.

ie 2.5mm cable, 16A MCB = 16 Single outlets or 8 double outlets and less if lights are on the circuit.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

HAH...most new houses are built that tight they would flat out have a total of 8 doubles in the house :lol:


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## fraser_john (18/1/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Brand new place (well 1.5 years old now) filled with 12V downlights. Seriously a room that would take 1 normal light takes 4 of these downlights. There must be over 50 in the whole place. Funny thing is I've had as many bulbs blow as I have had transformers blow. There's about 3 transformers that are blown (a working bulb installed on the transformer won't work so I assume the transformer is blown). I've had about 3 bulbs blow in the same time. The bulbs do last a long time but the transformers seem a bit crappy. Perhaps it's the case of them dying early on or lasting a while, like manufacturing faults or something like that, as they all died fairly early on and none have since. Other ones right next to them have been fine.
> 
> Just one of those things. Wouldn't be a drama except you shouldn't need a sparkie to affectively change a light bulb :-(



Totally off topic, but because of the power these downlights use (55w + transformer inefficiency) and the fire risk associated with them, we spent $500 and replaced them all with new inserts and compact flourescents (7 watts each). They fit in the same hole and everything. Each compact is equivalent to 75 watts from memory. Our place looks much brighter and we now use a boatload less power.

When pulling the transformers out, some were puffed up and split with burn marks on them!!!! The sooner these shitty lighting systems are banned by code, the better.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

Rob2 said:


> I can't paste the table, but...
> "Guidance on the loading of points per final subcircuit"
> Contribution of each point (A) (sum must not exceed rating of each circuit breaker)
> 10A single or multiphase socket outlets
> ...




Yeah I remember something about that, but it isnt absoloute, but you must have a 16Amp breaker on the cct


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## schooey (18/1/10)

The whole bepuzzlement of all this code and stuff is the average Joe is then free to take his $2.50 down to Bunnings and by a four way powerboad and plub whatever the damn hell he wants into it... Yeah I know I know, user responsibility, but it's still stupid these things are allowed


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## Screwtop (18/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> HAH...most new houses are built that tight they would flat out have a total of 8 doubles in the house :lol:




Yeah project homes Stu. Cabled my sons new place couple of years back, 800M of 2.5 T&E, 600M of 1.5 T&E 100M of cat5 plus 3pr and 6pr for security. 16 ceiling fans, 4 x 2W switches, dimmers frikkin hell

By the time we allowed for bio-cycle and water pumps we had 6 pwr ccts 2 per ELCB/Ssw. Volunteered to wire the place as alove job.......................took nearly a week  


Screwy

Another off topic, but since LC was asked not to comment at the outset, it's probable ok :lol:


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

schooey said:


> The whole bepuzzlement of all this code and stuff is the average Joe is then free to take his $2.50 down to Bunnings and by a four way powerboad and plub whatever the damn hell he wants into it... Yeah I know I know, user responsibility, but it's still stupid these things are allowed



Yep, cant count how many offices have powerboards pluged into power boards......scary stuff


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## rclemmett (18/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yeah I remember something about that, but it isnt absoloute, but you must have a 16Amp breaker on the cct



I use it as an absolute... It could save an argument with an II.

Edit: I just spoke to an II here in Sydney, and you're right... They do just treat it as a guide, not a rule.


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## alowen474 (18/1/10)

schooey said:


> The whole bepuzzlement of all this code and stuff is the average Joe is then free to take his $2.50 down to Bunnings and by a four way powerboad and plub whatever the damn hell he wants into it... Yeah I know I know, user responsibility, but it's still stupid these things are allowed


We bought a 12 point board from bunnings a few years ago.
We affectionately named it the 12 banger.
We only ran a few computers of it though it was a very impressive piece!!


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## jlm (18/1/10)

Well just to keep the ot going,



Ducatiboy stu said:


> HAH...most new houses are built that tight they would flat out have a total of 8 doubles in the house :lol:



I wish I worked on these houses stu. I just ordered all the GPO's and switches for a house I'm doing at atm, all saturn series, 62 GPOs. At whatever price they come in at, plus now we can only have 3 ccts/rcd, rcd's on AC ccts, oven ccts (nearly everything now really) which means bigger SB which means more money. All we hear is I want, I want, I want, then when the quote comes in "Why does it cost so much?" followed by accusing stare at obviously profiteering sparky. 
End rant. First day back at work.......

And Mark, possum transformers will solve your problem. Made in AUS, if installed properly we never get call backs to change them. Almost all others are cheap chinese made crap. Um, do I have to identify myself as a craftsparky to allow for that statement of their quality?


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## Back Yard Brewer (18/1/10)

High guys. Was wondering if someone can help me with an electrical issue. You see I was in one of those retro shops and bought something similar to the picture below. Now before people start going off I want just a few pointers thats all. I have one of those sub boxes just out front of home that supplies part of our estate. Should I wire straight into that or through my power board :huh: Yep I would contact ETSA prior to linking through the sub box. It would be the polite thing to do, right? Anyway just thought I would pose the question, I mean since things have gotten a little :icon_offtopic: 







BTW and FWIW the chair is purely for aesthetics but it would be a real buzz or should I say a great talking point for friends when they call :unsure: 


BYB


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## Adamt (18/1/10)

Ahhhhh I knew Kenny was moving but I didn't know he was moving in with you...


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## Leigh (18/1/10)

To spice this thread up a bit, built a new house 6 years ago, from day 1 you had to turn off both safety switches that were marked lights to actually stop electricity flowing to any individual light...hmm, the sparky couldn't possibly have crossed the circuits could they?

Packing up my Xmas lights this year, I had 4 x 4way power boards and 3 x 6 way power boards all piggy backed and running through a single timer and power point h34r:


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## Screwtop (18/1/10)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> High guys. Was wondering if someone can help me with an electrical issue. You see I was in one of those retro shops and bought something similar to the picture below. Now before people start going off I want just a few pointers thats all. I have one of those sub boxes just out front of home that supplies part of our estate. Should I wire straight into that or through my power board :huh: Yep I would contact ETSA prior to linking through the sub box. It would be the polite thing to do, right? Anyway just thought I would pose the question, I mean since things have gotten a little
> 
> 
> View attachment 34919
> ...




:lol: :lol: Is that for the cellar Igor?


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## Back Yard Brewer (18/1/10)

Adamt said:


> Ahhhhh I knew Kenny was moving but I didn't know he was moving in with you...


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> High guys. Was wondering if someone can help me with an electrical issue. You see I was in one of those retro shops and bought something similar to the picture below. Now before people start going off I want just a few pointers thats all. I have one of those sub boxes just out front of home that supplies part of our estate. Should I wire straight into that or through my power board :huh: Yep I would contact ETSA prior to linking through the sub box. It would be the polite thing to do, right? Anyway just thought I would pose the question, I mean since things have gotten a little :icon_offtopic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would use a double adapter and run 2 leads to it, to give you twice as much power.If the fuse blows, just replace it with a big nail or bolt


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## svyturys (18/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I would use a double adapter and run 2 leads to it, to give you twice as much power.If the fuse blows, just replace it with a big nail or bolt



To really go OT.
A big nail(s) is exactly what an Australian VERY mainstream band used to use in the late 70's to make sure that their light show worked in older pubs. Well, actually it was the roadcrew, not the band, that carried out this procedure. Our roadcrew learnt a lot from these dedicated cowboys.

Cheers


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## LethalCorpse (18/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> Another off topic, but since LC was asked not to comment at the outset, it's probable ok :lol:


Hey, I was asked not to jump in with "don't do it or you'll kill yourself", which I definitely didn't do.

EDIT: unless you count my sig...


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/10)

Just do it , then kill yourself


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## MarkBastard (18/1/10)

fraser_john said:


> Totally off topic, but because of the power these downlights use (55w + transformer inefficiency) and the fire risk associated with them, we spent $500 and replaced them all with new inserts and compact flourescents (7 watts each). They fit in the same hole and everything. Each compact is equivalent to 75 watts from memory. Our place looks much brighter and we now use a boatload less power.
> 
> When pulling the transformers out, some were puffed up and split with burn marks on them!!!! The sooner these shitty lighting systems are banned by code, the better.



That's a good point, the transformers are loose in the roof and perhaps the ones that blew were sitting too close to the light. They get EXTREMELY hot these things. I measured one with my infra-red thermometer and it was well over 200 degrees. I have touched one accidentally and it's like touching a frying pan.

Dunno if I want to replace everything just yet. I was sort of waiting to see how LED lighting was advancing.

BTW just throwing this out there, if any sparkies want carton work or cash work or whatever in Brisbane let me know. Can do it whenever (night time if you want). Wouldn't mind a 15amp socket (right next to the circuit breakers) for an urn and some other bits and pieces done.


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## komodo (18/1/10)

svyturys said:


> To really go OT.
> A big nail(s) is exactly what an Australian VERY mainstream band used to use in the late 70's to make sure that their light show worked in older pubs. Well, actually it was the roadcrew, not the band, that carried out this procedure. Our roadcrew learnt a lot from these dedicated cowboys.
> 
> Cheers



LOL yep seen this one before - the top paper/foil from a cigarette box works equally well. And when doing festivals and powering off generators - "earth - what earth?" h34r: stops the light show dissapearing mid set. Ahh LX guys - nice and dodgy. Glad I wasn't responsible for any of that...


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## Screwtop (18/1/10)

LethalCorpse said:


> unless you count my sig...




Pretty quick LC

:super: 

Screwy


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## Back Yard Brewer (18/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> :lol: :lol: Is that for the cellar Igor?




Yep, got a mate called Lurch who would just love it :lol: 


BYB


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## newguy (19/1/10)

Wow. Very entertaining. I'm away from my computer for a day and a lot happens. Mental note, topics that evoke a visceral response on AHB:

1) Chinese hops.
2) Someone named Graham.
3) No chill.
4) Electricity.



Just so that this isn't completely OT, some circuit breaker trivia. In my 2nd year of undergrad we did a lab where we had to test a standard 120V, 15A breaker's time to activation as a function of current. Bear in mind that breakers will wear out over time - their internal workings get weak and they will tend to flip sooner than a new one, and these breakers had been abused by literally thousands of students prior to us abusing them. At 75A, it took 20 minutes for the breaker to flip. I don't remember any of the other data points but I do remember that we had to use a log-log plot to get a straight line. For relatively "low" overcurrents of 20-25A, it would take hours to flip. All this was done in a small lab with what we called the toaster boxes - large open caged carts with huge red hot power resistors. I'm certain the temperature in that room exceeded 45C by the time we were finished.


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## kabooby (19/1/10)

Hey Newguy,

That's why they are used for circuit protection and not personal saftey.

Kabooby


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## pokolbinguy (19/1/10)

Problem solved with an extension lead.





Pok


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## newguy (19/1/10)

pokolbinguy said:


> Problem solved with an extension lead.




......Pussy.


KIDDING! KIDDING! KIDDING!


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## pbrosnan (19/1/10)

LethalCorpse said:


> Guys, please stop the pissing contest about voltage versus current. None of you (except newguy) know what you're talking about, and you're speaking as though you think you do.


P=VI. I learn it from a book.


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## LethalCorpse (19/1/10)

How very accurate of you, pbrosnan. Utterly, abjectly useless, but accurate.


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## manticle (19/1/10)

I can speak English. I learn it from a boooook.

Hello. How are you sir.


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## pbrosnan (19/1/10)

LethalCorpse said:


> How very accurate of you, pbrosnan. Utterly, abjectly useless, but accurate.


Que?


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## Lilo (19/1/10)

Many Telecom Telephone Exchanges of old had a similar emergency fuse replacement guide tot he one below displayed on the wall....

Handy....


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## altstart (19/1/10)

Lilo said:


> Many Telecom Telephone Exchanges of old had a similar emergency fuse replacement guide tot he one below displayed on the wall....
> 
> Handy....



Hilarious
Cheers Altstart


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## LethalCorpse (19/1/10)




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