# comments or tips on water additions.



## arctic78 (16/9/16)

Looking for some advise on my water additions for an IPA.

starting water is : Ca 10.3

Mg 1.8

Na 3.7

So4 7.7

Cl 7.7

Hc03 25.3

With additions of Gypsum 5g, calcium chloride 3.5 and Epson salt 1g for 17ltrs

water is: Ca 135

Mg 7.6

Na 26.8

So4 194.7

Cl 143.7

Hc03 25.3

Wanting the hops to come through well in this beer ... Any comments much appreciated


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## kaiserben (16/9/16)

Add another gram of Epsom Salt (MgSO4) to get Mg to above 10ppm. 
Take out all the CaCl2. 

That'll probably get you where you want to be.


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## Dan Pratt (16/9/16)

Id suggest to not take out all the CaCl2, chloride targeted at 50ppm will be suitable for an IPA so do reduce the amount of CaCl2 to get the chloride lower. 

What does that make the suggested mash pH?


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

If I drop the CaCl2 and add 1g table salt and keep the 5 g gypsum and increase MgS04 to 2g 
it comes out as.. Ca 65.1

Mg 13.4

Na 26.8

S04 185

Cl 44.4

At what levels Does the Epson salts become a problem ?? Have read it can impart a metallic flavour.

Also what about this sulphate/chloride ratio and the effect it has on the balance of the beer?

Thanks for your comments

oh the predicted
ph was 5.53


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## yankinoz (16/9/16)

That pH is pretty high.


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## kaiserben (16/9/16)

What you've got in post #4 looks good IMO. 

I wouldn't worry about Epsom Salt in such small quantities. Mg between 10-30 is recommended (I always shoot for just over 10ppm). 

Your sulfate/chloride ratio will be good for a hoppy beer. 

That pH is a little high. Perhaps add more CaSO4. and get it under 5.5, but at 5.53 it's not crazily out of whack or anything.


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

Thanks for the advise
I have only been using the beersmith water profile in the latest version and not sure if I like it. I have not got excel so I can't use bru'n water or the Kaiser water programs.
If I add around 120g of acidulated malt I think this should get me to around 5.3-5.4 mark for Ph which is what I want.
still using Ph strips for this brew but should have my meter turn up in the next week.

Have been playing around a bit with my water on the last couple of brews but not happy with what I have tried so far.


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## SBOB (16/9/16)

arctic78 said:


> Thanks for the advise
> I have only been using the beersmith water profile in the latest version and not sure if I like it. I have not got excel so I can't use bru'n water or the Kaiser water programs.


thats no excuse
LibreOffice https://www.libreoffice.org/
and
OpenOffice https://www.openoffice.org/
are both free

(I'd try LibreOffice first)


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## manticle (16/9/16)

arctic78 said:


> If I drop the CaCl2 and add 1g table salt and keep the 5 g gypsum and increase MgS04 to 2g
> it comes out as.. Ca 65.1
> 
> Mg 13.4
> ...


Magnesium can also make you shit yourself in high quantities but I reckon you're well below.
That said, an all malt wort really should provide sufficient.

I don't buy the whole ratio thing - one salt affects hop/bitterness perception, one affects malt perception. It's about balancing those flavours in favour of desired result. For an american style ipa, you obviously want more sulphate than chloride. How much may depend on wheteher you're targeting nortwest/west coast/east coast or just generic aipa.

If it's uk you want (not specified in op) then the balance might be different again.

pH measured at room temp or mash temp?


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

Thanks SBOB .

@ Manticle The more I search and read about the different affects on bitterness , Malty etc. the more I am coming to the conclusion that it is totally dependant on your own taste and what you like so I guess I just have to find the balance where I like it. The whole water chemistry thing is a hell of a lot to take in. I have read and re-read things and now I am trying different things slowly but I am always keen to see what others have to say from their experience.
My Ph readings I take between 23-25 C


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## manticle (16/9/16)

Reasonable temp to take them at. 20 is ideal, yours is fine in the scheme of things.


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

Thanks I will do them at 20 if that is a better temp.


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## manticle (16/9/16)

When you get an accurate, well calibrated meter and need to be spot on but where you are is pretty ok for most purposes. Don't stress. Just that temp affects actual pH and mash temp is different to room temp. 3 degrees won't put you out by much though.


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

SBOB you rock I now have access to both bru'n water and Kaiser water. Not a computer person so would never had found that stuff.

Thanks Manticle . I am just waiting on my Ph meter to turn up. Can't wait . I got a Milwaukee MW101 for $100 from what I have read this should be more than enough for what I want.


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## Danscraftbeer (16/9/16)

Make sure to test your own skills with the ph meter. Calibrating and confirming test results etc.
That's a few hours being modest.


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## timmi9191 (16/9/16)

increase so4 to 300
reduce cl to 100

what are you adding to increase the sodium?


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

My Cl is at 44

I am using table salt for the sodium.


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## timmi9191 (16/9/16)

the OP says cl is 143??

so4 300 ppm for hoppy beers with a minimum 3:1 so4/cl ratio. can be as high as 5:1

just my $0.02


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## arctic78 (16/9/16)

_Yeah sorry I have messed around with it since then . _
_Where did you come across the ratio for the So4/Cl ???_

_Cheers._


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## timmi9191 (16/9/16)

multiple sources.
bru'n. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/
water by palmer http://www.brewerspublications.com/books/water-a-comprehensive-guide-for-brewers/


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## arctic78 (17/9/16)

thanks timmi9191


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## Reman (18/9/16)

I use the brewers friend advanced water calc, a really good tool.

The recommended pH of 5.2-5.6 is at mash temp not room temp. The equivalent room temp is about 5.6-5.8(?)


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## rude (20/9/16)

Reman said:


> I use the brewers friend advanced water calc, a really good tool.
> 
> The recommended pH of 5.2-5.6 is at mash temp not room temp. The equivalent room temp is about 5.6-5.8(?)


Oh no here we go

This has been done to the nines & some more just do a google

Definetly room temp


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## jbaker9 (20/9/16)

According to John Palmer How to Brew pH should be 5.1 to 5.5 at mash temp / 5.4 to 5.8 at room temp. This is pretty close to what Reman said, different authors will.put slightly different values.


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## Dan Pratt (20/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> the OP says cl is 143??
> 
> so4 300 ppm for hoppy beers with a minimum 3:1 so4/cl ratio. can be as high as 5:1
> 
> just my $0.02


I used to run with that same ratio and it works ok. The more I brew hoppy beers the higher the chloride gets.

Alot of northeast cloudy style beer recipes that have metric fk tonnes of hops thrown in late are high with chloride with a more 1:1 ratio getting both at 150ppm, which seems high fro chloride but the beers are holdings hops better than 6:1 ever have.


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## timmi9191 (20/9/16)

"_In Summary, these resources indicate an optimum room temperature pH target range of anywhere from 5.0 to 5.6. The low end of this range is probably not as applicable as it once was since today's highly modified malts reduce the need for proteolysis. Therefore the target mash pH range should probably be 5.2-5.6_"

Page 60 Water by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski.

Pretty clear its room temp pH


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## timmi9191 (20/9/16)

jbaker9 said:


> According to John Palmer How to Brew pH should be 5.1 to 5.5 at mash temp / 5.4 to 5.8 at room temp. This is pretty close to what Reman said, different authors will.put slightly different values.


5.1-5.5 at 66 Celsius doesn't adjust to 5.4 to 5.8 at 25 Celsius


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## Dan Pratt (20/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> 5.1-5.5 at 66 Celsius doesn't adjust to 5.4 to 5.8 at 25 Celsius


 ahh yes it does. 

reading braukiser and the difference is shown to be 0.35 when tested at room temp 25c from that of a sample done at mash temp 

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/

h34r:


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## timmi9191 (20/9/16)

Pratty1 said:


> ahh yes it does.
> 
> reading braukiser and the difference is shown to be 0.35 when tested at room temp 25c from that of a sample done at mash temp
> 
> ...


http://reagecon.com/pdf/technicalpapers/Effects_of_Temperature_on_pH_v4-_TSP-01-2.pdf

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/PhTempCorrection.php


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (20/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> http://reagecon.com/pdf/technicalpapers/Effects_of_Temperature_on_pH_v4-_TSP-01-2.pdf
> 
> https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/PhTempCorrection.php


You've confused the temperature compensation for response of the pH electrode with the pH shift of the mash with temperature.

They are different things.


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## timmi9191 (20/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> You've confused the temperature compensation for response of the pH electrode with the pH shift of the mash with temperature.


Not at all



Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> They are different things.


I know


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## jhsbaker (20/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> 5.1-5.5 at 66 Celsius doesn't adjust to 5.4 to 5.8 at 25 Celsius


This is directly from How to Brew Chapter 15: Understanding the Mash PH: Balancing the Malts and Minerals.

"Let me state the goal right up front: for best results the mash pH should be 5.1 to 5.5 when measured at mash temperature, and 5.4 to 5.8 when measured at room temperature. (At mash temperature the pH will measure 0.3 lower due to greater dissociation of the hydrogen ions)"

I also have the Palmer and Kaminski book, which does recommend somewhere between 5.2 - 5.6 at room temperature. At mash temperature with 0.3 adjust this gives 4.9 - 5.3 (ie, 5.1 +/- 0.2). Looks pretty reasonable and consistent to me. Palmer could be more consistent between the two books, but I guess that's something you'd need to take up with him....


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (20/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Not at all


Then why did you post links to probe compensation in a dicussion of pH shift with temperature?


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## timmi9191 (20/9/16)

James said:


> This is directly from How to Brew Chapter 15: Understanding the Mash PH: Balancing the Malts and Minerals.
> 
> "Let me state the goal right up front: for best results the mash pH should be 5.1 to 5.5 when measured at mash temperature, and 5.4 to 5.8 when measured at room temperature. (At mash temperature the pH will measure 0.3 lower due to greater dissociation of the hydrogen ions)"
> 
> I also have the Palmer and Kaminski book, which does recommend somewhere between 5.2 - 5.6 at room temperature. At mash temperature with 0.3 adjust this gives 4.9 - 5.3 (ie, 5.1 +/- 0.2). Looks pretty reasonable and consistent to me. Palmer could be more consistent between the two books, but I guess that's something you'd need to take up with him....





Pratty1 said:


> ahh yes it does.
> 
> reading braukiser and the difference is shown to be 0.35 when tested at room temp 25c from that of a sample done at mash temp
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. 
My error was i considering the effect of ph of buffer solutions v temperature, which obviously behave differently to wort.

So yes wort at 5.1 to 5.5 at mash temp is roughly 5.4 to 5.8 at room temp


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## timmi9191 (20/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Then why did you post links to probe compensation in a dicussion of pH shift with temperature?


Is that all that was discussed in the article was it?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (20/9/16)

No, the Barron reference particularly is a very good discussion of the various affects of temperature on pH electrodes.

There's a brief discussion of sample variation in section 3.2 but the information given there is not germane to the discussion at hand.


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