# Pitch Yeast Temperature



## jkeysers (20/2/07)

Hi,
I've been reading around on this forum for a while now, and I thought it was about time I made my mark. I have been home brewing for a little while (probly about 8 times), first with bottles, now with kegs, but have never managed to make a *really* nice beer (IMHO). Every brew, be it lager, bitter, draught, whatever always seems to have a similar sweet and cidery taste.

I figured that seeing as I have the keg setup now (which was a gift), I should put a bit more effort into it to try and make a better beer. I have always really just followed the basic instructions on the kits, so have been missing a lot (I never used to even hydrate the yeast for example, I just tipped it in). Anyway, tonight I brewed a Mexican Cerveza Kit, all went (pretty) well. When I was getting close to being finished brewing, I started the steps to hydrating the yeast. Then I ran into problems. Like I said, I wanted to make this brew right for a change, so I thought one way to improve was with better water quality. I "borrowed" a 20L spring water bottle from work and used that to top up the fermenter. However, because this wasn't as cold as water from the tap (it was roughly room temp I guess), and the fact I probly mixed my kit with closer to 3L of hot-boiling water than 2L, I had a lot of trouble getting the temp down to a pitching temp of 20-28 degrees. At first my fermenter was telling me it was like 38 degrees! After about 1 hour 45 minutes, sitting in cold water with a wet towel wrapped around it, my fermenter was telling me it was at about 30-31 degrees. Now I know these little temperature sticker thingies on the fermenters probly arent the most accurate, but I was stuck for what to do. As a relative noob, and only really having done "dumb" brewing, was I right to pitch the yeast at around the 30o mark? I was worried I might "overhydrate" my yeast, for want of a better term. Plus I think I read somewhere that you shouldn't leave your brew too long before putting your yeast in. So I bit the bullet. Should I have? Or would it have been better to wait?

I just wanted to get some opinions. I hope I haven't stuffed it. Should I be storing the beer at a different temperature to compensate? At any rate, I was a lot more careful with cleaning and temperatures this time compared to previous times.

Anyway, great forums, I've still got a lot to learn, but I already feel heaps more confident than I did. Thanks!


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## Keifer (20/2/07)

I would have done what you did, try to crash the temp to 30 then chuck the yeast in. Should be fine if you can get the temp down to a reasonable level like 20.

Personally i don't bother re-hydrating the yeast anymore because i could not see the difference and it's more things to do/clean.

Good on ya for trying to make better beer!


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## Kingy (20/2/07)

i usually use 3 litres of hot water sometimes 4 when i use a lot of sugars,on brewing day i stick 6 litres of cold water in the fridge sometimes more. and use this to top up the last 5 or 6 litres or so to get it down to at least 22 degrees before pitching yeast. its good to sit between 18 and 22.

the off flavours are from pitching yeast in high temps. as ive learnt also im currently forcing down a brew that i fermented at 28 degrees a few months back.(its horrible) 

if u cant get it cool i would think it would be ok to leave overnight before pitching yeast but im sure others can help you out here.

keep browsing the forums mate and u will learn heaps.


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/2/07)

Chicken


1) Stick on temp thingys tell lies like a lawyer in court

2) At Kit stage, spring water wont make any noticable difference

3) You dont have to rehydrate dry yeast. I do AG, and when I use dry yeast I just pour it in from the packet

4) Initial ( fermenter ) pitching temp is more important. Try to get it to 18-20* ish, and keep it cool. Yeast activity WILL increase the temp in your fermenter

5) The Cider taste is most likely due to using white sugar with your kit. Spend a few more dollars and get some dry malt. It costs a few $$ more but the improvements are well worth it

6) Fill in your location details, then someone will offer you to an afternoon of All grain brewing.This will be your demise.....AG will send you into the infinite spiral of the quest for the ultimate beer


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## braufrau (20/2/07)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Chicken
> 1) Stick on temp thingys tell lies like a lawyer in court



So what do you use then? Are the reasonably accurate once the T stablilises?

-braufrau


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/2/07)

Stick-ons wont tell you the temp inside the ferm.

They only tell you the temp on the outside of the ferm.

Plastic has a resonable insulation effect.

The only real way is to put a thermo into the ferm...or draw out sample from the tap and measure it.

*BUT* Dont be tempted to drink the sample....you could end up with an empty fermenter h34r:


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## microbe (20/2/07)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Stick-ons wont tell you the temp inside the ferm.
> 
> They only tell you the temp on the outside of the ferm.
> 
> ...



After 5 years of on and off brewing this only just occured to me the other day :blink: :angry: 

Why so stupid ?!?! ???

That being said - the fermenting wort will tend towards the ambient temperature anyway especially given that yeasties add to the heat -  - need to get me some temperature control - * and fast *


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## jkeysers (20/2/07)

Cool, thanks guys. Good, speedy responses!

Keifer. I have it in a fridge outside at the moment. It's currewntly sitting on around 26o. I keep hearing mixed things about hydrating the yeast. Some say its a must, some say dont bother.

KINGVEEBEE. I have learned next time to have at least a few lites of water in the fridge to try to control the temp. Do you think that pitching it around the 30o mark will ruin it? (Even if it is going by my little temp sticker).

Ducatiboy stu. Do you think that the sticker temp meter is more likely to lie up or down to me. Ie. if I think I pitched at 30o according to the sticker, would it be more likely I pitched at 32 or 28o? I hope to move to bigger and better things eventually (AG), but for now I just want to master kits. Tonights was just a Coopers Mexican with 500g Dextrose and 500g liquid malt extract. I hope it tastes OK. I don't want another one of the same (sweet cider beer)!!


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## microbe (20/2/07)

i_like_chicken said:


> Ducatiboy stu. Do you think that the sticker temp meter is more likely to lie up or down to me. Ie. if I think I pitched at 30o according to the sticker, would it be more likely I pitched at 32 or 28o? I hope to move to bigger and better things eventually (AG), but for now I just want to master kits. Tonights was just a Coopers Mexican with 500g Dextrose and 500g liquid malt extract. I hope it tastes OK. I don't want another one of the same (sweet cider beer)!!



Not to me - I know. But I'll offer an explanation anyway.

The reading from the sticker will likely be between the ambient temp and the temp inside the fermenter.

ie - if your wort is at 26 and the outside temp is 34 the sticker *might* say 30. *stress* this is only an example not based on any actual experimentation. The theory behind it though, is sound. 

basically the thermometer will be affected by both the air temp and the temp of the wort and will give you an average reading - exactly where that average lies will depend on many factors.

Cheers

microbe

Edit - spelling


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## DJR (20/2/07)

When you say sweet cider beer there can be 5 causes. One is a "sherry" taste that comes from using old, oxidised liquid extract like an old kit. Go find a kit on special at a homebrew shop, kmart or bigw, ferment it and you'll find out what that means, the same taste can come from oxidation of the beer although ends up tasting more "cardboardy/musty". The other is using mainly white sugar which will leave a slightly cidery taste, although i've never really got it as i never used white sugar. The 3rd cause can be too high a ferment temperature which will create a lot of esters and fusels which will make the beer taste fruity and at higher levels like nail polish remover or paint stripper (mainly ethyl acetate). 4th one is just residual sweetness in the beer from using extract or ingredients that is highly non-fermentable, too much crystal malt is one example.The last is a yeast that creates a estery/sweet (low attenuation) profile, but most kit yeasts are pretty clean and are designed to do their work day in day out without too much of a problem.

26C is too much. Aim for 18-20C or lower for ales, 16C is pretty good but some yeast strains don't work very well, so 18-20C is a good range to aim for for most ales. And try some better yeast that what comes under the lid. Go get yourself some US56 at least, or get some liquid yeast and read up on culturing so that you don't have to spend $15 per brew on yeast. I culture up and farm yeast and so it costs me almost nothing.


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## PistolPatch (20/2/07)

Howdy Chicken,

I feel your pain!!!

From the detail you have posted, it looks as though you are going through the stage where you feel as though you are doing everything right but still don't like the beer you are producing. You are trying to find that elusive factor that is making your beer not that good.

You might be like me...

I have tried brewing three times over twenty years and it is only in the last attempt, thanks to AHB, that I have finally been successful and actually found brewing a good beer easy.

If you are finding your beer to be cidery, puckering your mouth or generally being unenjoyable, you usually conclude that you are doing something wrong. Your post above reflects that.

This is the problem with brewing from a kit. There are blokes here that brew great beers from a kit - InCider and Old_Dog to name two. On some of their beers I have actually been unable to taste the cidery taste of kits and this amazed me - still does.

On my third venture into home brewing kits I found this forum.

I then went on to do 8 crap kit brews. I did everything sacredly. Temperature control, sanitation, I even tried packet yeast!

All the beers were to me undrinkable. Some of these beers I even left for 4 months to see if they would improve. They didn't.

Even with me mentioning InCider (tasted 3 beers) and OldDog (3 beers that were kit and not all-grain), I still found 2 out of the 3 to have that puckering taste to some degree.

I have concluded that becoming succesful at brewing a great beer is a lot harder when done from a kit. The above guys often get it half or absolutely right and I can't tell you how jealous I am of them!

However, if you are like me, and get frustrated when you do everything right and still produce a crap beer then I think, instead of persisting with kits, you should invest $150 and go straight to all-grain brewing. 

The peace of mind that comes with being able to start brewing a beer today and being able to confidently drink it 7-10 days later (with your keg set-up) is indescribable.

What I suggest you do is add, to your AHB profile, where you live. Hopefully you are in an area where an all-grain brewer also resides. Start a new thread, "Can someone teach me All-Grain in ........."

If there is no one in your area, I'm in the process of re-writing, "A Guide to All-Grain Brewing In a Bag," which is the cheapest and most simple way of brewing an all-grain beer that, to date, currently exists.

Even a read of the existing guide should give you an idea of how easy it is to brew a great beer now that you have obviously considered the basics.

Cheers
Pat

* I would have included the link but am in the process of moving house. The BIAB thread is Airlocked (top of the list) in what I think is the "All-Grain and Partials." forum.


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## FNQ Bunyip (21/2/07)

Come on Pat , You've been moving house for 2 months buddy need a new excuse  


Chicken: You said you have your brew in an old fridge Turn it ON. Temp control is the most important part for your KK to improve. The sponsers of this site sell a digital temp control for about $45, get one put it on your old fridge and things will improve...

I have said it befor , but I think that if temp control was explaned better on kits more brewers would keep brewing and not be turned off by the crap taste of beers fermented at 20+ deg. Get your ferm temps down to 16 o 18 and things will get alot better. 

Good luck withit ,, have a look at the BIAB , its ezy and the brews are way better than any kit I have brewed..

Fill in your location for more friendly local AHB suport.

:beer:


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## jkeysers (21/2/07)

microbe - It was a warm day in Melbourne yesterday, and my house has a lovely habit of holding temprature, so it was probly about 30-32 inside. Which I guess puts the beer at around the same temp seeing as thats what the temp sticker read. Bummer, looks like I pitched too warm. I shoulda just waited. Like I said, tho, I'm sure I read somewhere that you werent sposed to wait too long before pitching your yeast as it can ruin your wert. It was already nearly 2 hours. Oh well, cant be helped now.

DJR - Thanks for your tips. I think for me it was probly number 3. I was never that careful to keep it at a cool, constant temperature. I just kept it in a cool dark place, but probly not cool (or constant) enough. I will keep your other tips in mind too.

Patch - I hope to move to AG eventually. I just want to master kits first. I'd love to just try some nice home brew, be it kit or AG. Mine and my friends all tend to taste the same. I hope to be one of the few who can make a decent kit brew. Its just so easy and convenient.

FNQ - When I pitched last night, my temp sticker read 30-31 (which I guess means the wort was anywhere between about 27-32). Afterwards I put it in the fridge and turned it on (at warmest setting). Then I made my first post here. Just before I went to bed about 2 hours later, the fermenter was reading about 24-26 (again, depends how much you trust the sticker). I decided to leave it ON overnight. Checked it this morning and it read 16 degrees, so I turned the fridge off. I figured I might ring the Mrs and get her to turn it back on shortly, and from here on in I will have the fridge on between 8am-6pm (when the outside temp is higher) and off at night when its a bit cooler, trying to keep it at around 18 degrees. Does this sound OK?

Ideas? Or is it too late to bother keeping constant temperature coz I likely pitched too warm?


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## Simon W (21/2/07)

> ....I'm sure I read somewhere that you werent sposed to wait too long before pitching your yeast as it can ruin your wert. It was already nearly 2 hours. Oh well, cant be helped now.



Hi ILC,

It's not as bad as kit instructions make out. If the fermenter is sanitised well before adding the wort, the wort added while still pretty hot, and then sealed up quickly, it can sit there for some time. Infact, there is a whole group of brewers that use a method called 'No Chill', you can read up on it HERE and HERE.



> ...I figured I might ring the Mrs and get her to turn it back on shortly, and from here on in I will have the fridge on between 8am-6pm (when the outside temp is higher) and off at night when its a bit cooler, trying to keep it at around 18 degrees. Does this sound OK?



Better late than never, no stress if the fridge gets left on accidentally and the temp drops pretty low. The 20-odd litres of wort will drop in temp pretty slowly, so chances you'll catch it are good. Even if it gets down to single digit temps, the yeast will wake up again once the temp is raised to normal.


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## jkeysers (21/2/07)

Simon W said:


> Hi ILC,
> 
> It's not as bad as kit instructions make out. If the fermenter is sanitised well before adding the wort, the wort added while still pretty hot, and then sealed up quickly, it can sit there for some time. Infact, there is a whole group of brewers that use a method called 'No Chill', you can read up on it HERE and HERE.



Good to know. It was well sanitised, as I'd said, I was really trying to improve so I made sure of it! Bummer! So I should have just waited for temp to drop. Oh well, like I said, can't be helped. I'll know for next time. Although I think next time I'll just be more careful to try and get my wort to end up around the low to mid twenties in the first place!



Simon W said:


> Better late than never, no stress if the fridge gets left on accidentally and the temp drops pretty low. The 20-odd litres of wort will drop in temp pretty slowly, so chances you'll catch it are good. Even if it gets down to single digit temps, the yeast will wake up again once the temp is raised to normal.



I rang the Mrs about 11am this morning, it's still hovering around the 16o mark. So I'm thinking I'll just turn on the fridge every night for 4 hours or so when I get home from work bewteen about 5.30-9.30 from here on in. I know that cold temps don't affect the yeast too much, but everyone says to try to keep the temperature constant. Or is it more fluctuations *above* the acceptable temperature range I have to worry about? Ie. Does temperature consistency not matter as much if I'm bouncing up and down between say 10-12 and 18-20 degrees?

Man, so much I haven't been doing properly. And I'm annoyed already with this lot coz I didn't get it right and perfect the way I wanted. I'll be drinking it and even if it does taste good, be wondering if it could have been better had I done things differently! Argh! haha.


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## Simon W (21/2/07)

> ....but everyone says to try to keep the temperature constant. Or is it more fluctuations above the acceptable temperature range I have to worry about?



Stable temp is the ideal, but not everyone can get a perfectly stable temperature, so hovering in a 2 or 3 degreeC band is fine.
I reckon breif excersions below ideal temp is not detrimental other than slowing fermentation. Not sure if there is any off-flavours/aroma's produced.
If there is, they're not as infamous as those produced by going over-temp.

Edit: If your fridge's temperature varies by say 5degree's over a day, the wort's temperature will fluctuate even less due to its thermal mass.
Ever had an Aquarium with a thermometer in it? On hot days the water temp does rise, but very slowly and will never get near the days high, same for the days lows. When I had my aquarium, the temp would only vary a few degree's over the day. There was a lot more water in my aquarium than in my fermenter tho!
In the fridge, it will sorta sit in the middle of the min-max 'swing'.

Edit#2: Another analogy , a swimming pool stays pretty constant temp over a day, even with a days massive swings in temperature(say 40 to 10degrees). We don't have that thermal mass, so we must reduce(no need to eliminate) the ambient temperature swings.


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## braufrau (21/2/07)

ILC,

you should get yourself a controller for the fridge and then you can relax about the T
and concentrate on brewing!

http://www.mashmaster.com.au/store/product...;products_id=28

There are a couple of other reasons beer can taste sweet apart from the 5 that DJR said.

6. When you add extra fermentables to a kit you need to offset them with more hops. Try adding
some finishing hops or boiling the sugar and malt with some hops to add acidity.
7. The beer isn't carbonated. But since you haven't said your beer is flat I guess that's not the problem.

Pat is probably right that AG will be the only thing that makes you happy but there are some 
intermediate steps.
The first one is do away with the kit and just use hops, malt extract and crystal grains. 
The second step is a partial mash where you use some extract and mash some grains.

Also, IMO, rehydrating the yeast does help, but what helps even more is to use enough yeast.
You need two of those itty bitty packets that come with the kits for a 23l brew.

And don't drink your beer straight away. Store it for at least a month. That will reduce the astringency.

-braufrau


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## PistolPatch (21/2/07)

LOL Bunyip  If I hadn't had so many beers before writing that post last night I probably would have suggested something a little more sensible than going straight to all-grain such as...

Fresh Wort Kits: Assuming you have all the basics right but still get that cidery, puckering taste, go for the fresh wort kits. I had a taste of a few of these recently and they were excellent. No off-flavours at all. Whilst they are a little more expensive, you will get a great beer without having to buy any extra equipment or spend any extra time.

Cheers
Pat (Sober tonight ^_^ )


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/2/07)

Pistol


Your last post is the shortest post you have ever posted  

You stopped drinking mate.... B)


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## jkeysers (22/2/07)

Simon W - Your words are encouraging. Cheers. Ive managed to keep it (again, this is just according to the crappy little sticker temp guage) around 16o pretty consistently for about 36 hours now. Is this too cold? I know that fermentation is done once my gravity readings are consistent over a few days, but at these temps (16-18o), how long would I expect it to take? A week? 10 days?

braufrau - Will have to look into some better equipment and ingredients like the ones you mentioned once I have the funds. The Mrs recently informed me we are expecting our first baby, so I don't know when that'll be! haha. When you say dont drink straight away, I keg my beer. Should I be gassing it then leaving it for a month? Or leaving it for a month then gassing it? Chilled or unchilled. So much to learn! Sorry if these are stupid questions. Just wanna learn as much as I can. I'm still trying to work out how I'm gonna get the beer in the keg without splashing coz apparently that can ruin it my homebrew shop guy told me. I'm thinking through a length of garden hose at this stage. Anyway, off topic...

Pat - Fresh wort kits? I havent heard of those. That doesnt mean much tho I guess. Is there any Melbourne people out there who can recommend good brew shops? Mine doesnt have much variety. I'm not sure i've seen anything like that.


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## PistolPatch (22/2/07)

I did write one shorter post a while ago Ducati. BigD was so amazed he ofered to buy me a beer!

Chicken, the fresh wort kits are the perfect step up from the kits. This is advice I recieved early on but unfortunately ignored as I too hadn't heard of them.

These kits are basically a 15 litre container of fresh wort. In other words, the manufacturer has mashed the grain, added hops and then boiled it all for you. All you do is throw this into your fermenter, add 8 litres of water to top it up and then pitch your yeast and ferment as usual at the appropriate temperature.

There's bound to be a supplier in Melbourne somewhere. There are several beer styles to choose from and if you like, you can add extra hops, try different yeasts etc. In other words, you can do all the stuff you can do with all-grain except alter the grain bill. In all cases, you are going to get a lovely beer so I can't really see any downside to this method.

Go to the Search page of the forum (just to the left of the help button at top right) and search for fresh wort kits but ask the engine to search thread titles only. Hopefully there'll be some intereesting info there. Otherwise Google it.

Spot ya,
Pat


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## braufrau (22/2/07)

i_like_chicken said:


> braufrau - Will have to look into some better equipment and ingredients like the ones you mentioned once I have the funds. The Mrs recently informed me we are expecting our first baby, so I don't know when that'll be! haha.



I totally understand about the funds! I started brewing to save money. Wheeled the baby up to
the supermarket and told her to pick a kit for daddy! Since then, things have got a bit out of hand.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the kegging since I only bottle. I'm afraid if I did keg my husband might
go from one bottle / night to one keg / night. 

The grain and grape sell fresh wort kits but they are a bit far from packenham!
grain and grape

IMO, Coopers yeast cultured from a bottle is better than anything stuck to the top of a kit can.
That's cheap way to improve beer. Just costs you a long neck and some dried malt extract.

Good luck! Take it a step at a time.

-braufrau


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## jkeysers (22/2/07)

PistolPatch said:


> These kits are basically a 15 litre container of fresh wort. In other words, the manufacturer has mashed the grain, added hops and then boiled it all for you. All you do is throw this into your fermenter, add 8 litres of water to top it up and then pitch your yeast and ferment as usual at the appropriate temperature.



That sounds VERY interesting. I do less work and get better beer! The big question is cost. What would I be looking at for a fresh wort kit and some decent yeast to throw in? $50? More? I am searching around and finding information, but not really much on prices (or local sellers as yet).

I am intrigued by this new development tho. Thanks pat! Any Victorians who might be able to help on sellers?


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