# No Bubbling In Airlock.



## bcleary (6/12/09)

Morning all.

Just mixed another kit form beer last night.
A ringwood lager all in one liquid kit .
Pitched a lallemand Diamond Dry German Lager yeast.(which came with it,)
Got wort temp down to 25 deg Pitched the yeast waited 5 mins then gave it all a swirl put the lid and airlock on and put it straight into a tempmate temp controlled fridge at 18 deg.
Twelve hours later no signs of bubbles from the air lock at all and the airlock is very airtight too.
Do you think this is all still ok.
My last batch bubbled a bit at the start and stopped soon after.
Would love to hear your opinions.
Cheers
Big B


----------



## fergi (6/12/09)

Big B said:


> Morning all.
> 
> Just mixed another kit form beer last night.
> A ringwood lager all in one liquid kit .
> ...




dont stress, i have had plenty of brews that dont start that fast, if you have sanitised well it will be fine,i have had 48 hour starts and they come out good, i have a golden ale at the moment with us 05 that i put down last nite , this morning it doesnt even look like its awake but give it another 6/12 hours and it will be away.
cheers
fergi


----------



## chappo1970 (6/12/09)

Lager yeast take time to fire Big B. Try to exercise some Patience yeah? 

Also you may have under pitched by using only one satchel. I'm not familar with that yeast some maybe ok?
All will be fine I am sure.

Chap Chap


----------



## dans6401 (6/12/09)

Give it a bit more time, and don't trust the airlock. Personally i stopped using an airlock after my first brew, found with cling wrap i can see what's going on.


----------



## The Mad Hopper (6/12/09)

One of my fermenters just doesn't hold a seal all that well. I never get much in the way of bubbling through the airlock, but the beer always comes out fine. Check the gravity after a few days and then you'll know all is well.


----------



## Midnight Brew (6/12/09)

hey hey,

Like suggested could be a slow start or a dodgey seal somewhere, either way it should be fine and produce a great beer.

dicko


----------



## Steve (6/12/09)

Dont worry about the airlock not bubbling. Id be more concerned about fermenting it at 18 if it is a true lager yeast. Should be around 10-12 degrees.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## zabond (6/12/09)

Whoever invented airlocks needs their arse kicked-causes more worry than anything else for the rookie brewer-go to clingwrap and watch for the ferm signs-krausen/condensation & trust your hydrometer


----------



## litre_o_cola (6/12/09)

ZABOND said:


> Whoever invented airlocks needs their arse kicked-causes more worry than anything else for the rookie brewer-go to clingwrap and watch for the ferm signs-krausen/condensation & trust your hydrometer



Agreed, the only good part of the lid is the seal for the clingwrap.


----------



## Ross (6/12/09)

The Diamond dried yeast should be fermented between 10c & 15c.
I hope the yeast is fairly fresh as Diamond Lager has a use by date of just 12 months, & if pitching just one 11gm sachet you'd want viabillity as high as possible.

Cheers Ross


----------



## bcleary (6/12/09)

Thank you very much Ross
The yeast had no use by date on the pack and was purchased 3 weeks ago from betta brew in Parkwood on the coast.
I checked the fermenter this afternoon and there seems to be frothing on the top of the wort though still no movement on the air lock I will keep an eye on it at a constant temp of 18 deg c.
Cheers
Big B








Ross said:


> The Diamond dried yeast should be fermented between 10c & 15c.
> I hope the yeast is fairly fresh as Diamond Lager has a use by date of just 12 months, & if pitching just one 11gm sachet you'd want viabillity as high as possible.
> 
> Cheers Ross


----------



## troopa (6/12/09)

Sounds like a good chance you have an decent air leak 

Dont swet it.. if its starting to form krausen then just go with the flow.. its doing its thing.. you do yours 

Tom

Ps... throw the lid and airlock out and go buy a roll of gladwrap. And never stress about bubbling air locks again


----------



## np1962 (6/12/09)

Big B said:


> Thank you very much Ross
> The yeast had no use by date on the pack and was purchased 3 weeks ago from betta brew in Parkwood on the coast.
> I checked the fermenter this afternoon and there seems to be frothing on the top of the wort though still no movement on the air lock I will keep an eye on it at a constant temp of 18 deg c.
> Cheers
> Big B


As suggested by others, get your temp down a bit, 10 to 15 degrees as Ross has said.
If you must use an airlock and it eases your mind to see it bubbling an easy test that you have a good seal is to press down gently on the lid of your fermenter and hold.
The water level will change as you push down and will stay steady when you hold that position without you having to press harder.
I do use an airlock on all my fermenters and use this method, generally have plenty of bubbling but never worry if I don't get any as long as I have condensation, krausen, sediment on bottom of fermenter or most importantly dropping SG when tested with my hydrometer, the only true indication of fermentation!
It is a lager yeast, pitched dry and will take a little time to take off, don't worry but do get that temp down to get a better tasting beer.
Good Luck
Cheers
Nige

And look out for kittens h34r:


----------



## Hawk_eye (9/12/09)

Troopa said:


> Sounds like a good chance you have an decent air leak
> 
> Dont swet it.. if its starting to form krausen then just go with the flow.. its doing its thing.. you do yours
> 
> ...


Hi I'm a newbie at this can you please explain how you use gladwrap instead of an airlock.Also what is the benefit and how do you know if your brew is working and when it is ready.I always thought you had to have an airlock


----------



## cdbrown (9/12/09)

Simple Hawk_eye.

Inside the lid is a rubber seal - a black rubber o-ring. Take this out. Place a layer of glad wrap over the mouth of the fermenter. To hold it in place you then stretch the o-ring over the mouth and push it down below the threads. There you go. Now you can look into the top and see what's happening and you'll no longer worry about bubbling or not.


----------



## Yowster (9/12/09)

I think in the 6-7 brews I've done (so yes I still consider myself a newbie) I have never had any activity through the airlock. I've replaced the seal all to no avail. So now I'm no longer bothered by this.

The big thing as others have said and I'm sure you know is trust your hydrometer.


----------



## haysie (9/12/09)

Wheres Butters?
Our dud hero reinventing all things brewing and shitting on newbies or people asking questions goddamn them?


----------



## mccuaigm (9/1/10)

I have a concern that my yeast I used yesterday is suss too. The top of the wort is totally clear & showing no signs of life.

I put the brew down about 24 hours ago the yeast is a brew cellar American Ale Yeast from a Little Creature Pale Ale clone kit.

I rehydrated the yeast (first time for me) it was quite milky, but not foam or bubbles.

Is it stuffed you reckon?

If it is, what can I do?

Cheers


----------



## wynnum1 (9/1/10)

Are we living in the dark ages using glad wrap when you have a good lid.


----------



## bullfrog (9/1/10)

Goldy, how long did you leave the yeast to sit when you rehydrated? I'd imagine that you may still be okay -- leave it for another day or so and if you see no activity then perhaps pitch another packet of yeast.


----------



## mccuaigm (9/1/10)

Bullfrog,

I left it about 20-30 mins in about 200mls of tepid water.


----------



## daemon (9/1/10)

For people worrying about bubbling in their airlock, please do a search of the forums (use the google one). You'll find that many others have had the same concerns and in 99% of the cases it's been fine. The airlock isn't a good indicator of if your wort is fermenting or not, this is what your hydrometer is good for 



goldy said:


> I have a concern that my yeast I used yesterday is suss too. The top of the wort is totally clear & showing no signs of life.
> 
> I put the brew down about 24 hours ago the yeast is a brew cellar American Ale Yeast from a Little Creature Pale Ale clone kit.
> 
> ...


Wait at least 48 hours to see activity, you may have received an old pack of yeast. Always check the use by date, the older the yeast is the less viable it is. If after another 24 hours there's absolutely no activity (verified with your hydrometer), I'd buy a new pack of yeast (checking the date of course) and sprinkle over the top.



wynnum1 said:


> Are we living in the dark ages using glad wrap when you have a good lid.


Lids are another item to clean and it means you can't see the activity. Glad wrap on the other hand is cheap, easy and allows you to see what's going on. It also means no airlocks to suck water in when you move them around and a big reason for me is the fermenters wouldn't fit in the fridge with the lid / airlock.


----------



## reVoxAHB (9/1/10)

This thread again demonstrates how terribly inefficient the standard Aussie plastic, screw-top fermenter is. Time and time again, this situation presents itself (and it's fine that you asked for direction Big B B) ) but what astounds me is how many deal with it (lack of lock) by not dealing with it :huh: . Rather than address the issue, you glad wrap it? Seriously?

How can you be sure your fermentation fridge is free from bacteria and airborne contaminants? How can you be sure the room you are fermenting in is free from the same? How close is your ferm to the dunny? To the shower you haven't cleaned in as long as you can remember? Think about it. The next room? 8 steps away from where you've been shitting curry all morning? Yeah, glad wrap strikes me as better than nothing (1 step up from a tea towel draped over the top).

Point is, wouldn't we be doing a better service to beginners (and experts alike) by directing them to ditch the crap fermenter and explore better bottle, glass, or dare I suggest stainless? Clearly jumping straight to SS conical isn't going to appeal to 99% of beginners, but a glass or better bottle solution will run $40-$50. Throw in a carboy brush for cleaning, and yes it's slightly more than the cost of a standard plastic ferm but it pays for itself hand over fist in never having to be replaced (unless you crush or shatter), can be cleaned spotlessly with no chance of scratching (even on a micro level which will harbour bacteria), is NOT permeable to chlorophenol and more.

All homebrew is infected to a certain extent. I'll minimise mine, as best I can, by truly airlocking it and using diluted sanitiser in the airlock.




As others have mentioned, airlock is not an indication to gravity or how well your yeast is working, but it is a convenient way to simply glance at your fermenting beer and have a rough indication of activity, without having to open the vessel and potentially introduce infection. As it slows down, and stops (or as curiosity gets the better of you) pull a sample and read. If you have no airlock activity (due to a poorly sealed lid or seal, etc.) and you have to pull samples every other day, it's both fiddly and again, risks infection. 

Big B's issue with underpitching a lager yeast (at 25C) has been addressed which I won't touch on. 

Oh, and Jamil dedicated an entire podcast to comparing fermentation vessels: glass vs. plastic vs. stainless vs. other. I can't find it via teh google, but it's out there if you want to research further.

Full body flame suit on,

reVox


----------



## manticle (9/1/10)

To be fair there are a lot of issues with glass (weight and breakability being two of them and both are dangerous) and stainless steel costs are too prohibitive for most beginner brewers to contemplate.

You bring up some good points but doing good service to beginners (and experienced) means offering options thay may not have thought of rather than insisting they use this or that method.


----------



## dpadden (9/1/10)

reVox said:


> This thread again demonstrates how terribly inefficient the standard Aussie plastic, screw-top fermenter is. Time and time again, this situation presents itself (and it's fine that you asked for direction Big B B) ) but what astounds me is how many deal with it (lack of lock) by not dealing with it :huh: . Rather than address the issue, you glad wrap it? Seriously?
> 
> How can you be sure your fermentation fridge is free from bacteria and airborne contaminants? How can you be sure the room you are fermenting in is free from the same? How close is your ferm to the dunny? To the shower you haven't cleaned in as long as you can remember? Think about it. The next room? 8 steps away from where you've been shitting curry all morning? Yeah, glad wrap strikes me as better than nothing (1 step up from a tea towel draped over the top).
> 
> ...



Great post reVox, I switched to glass very early on and never looked back. 

Quick question for you. How do you draw samples from the carboy towards the end of fermentation? I've tried a few things but never really been happy with my methods.

Paddo


----------



## reVoxAHB (10/1/10)

manticle said:


> To be fair there are a lot of issues with glass (weight and breakability being two of them and both are dangerous) and stainless steel costs are too prohibitive for most beginner brewers to contemplate.
> 
> You bring up some good points but doing good service to beginners (and experienced) means offering options thay may not have thought of rather than insisting they use this or that method.


I address the issue of breakability by using carboy handles ($8) and milk crates. That is, I transport, store, aerate my carboys with 1 hand firmly on handle at neck, and the other at milk crate handle (the carboy firmly rests in bottom of crate and is protected by plastic at all sides). I've never known weight to be an issue, even when [email protected], unless you mean full and hard to carry as no real handles are available, which certainly is the case when they're bare. Throw in wet hands and you've got a recipe for disaster. Been there. Agreed with SS being cost prohibitive, hence my won't appeal to 99%, but good clarification on that mostly being a cost issue.

I don't know how insistent I came across in regard to using any material, specifically. If I had to insist on anything, it would be to ditch the faulty, plastic fermenter. That I will insistently stand by. From there, I'm offering options persons may not have considered eg glass, better bottle or stainless. And further, if they want a real experts opinion, they can listen to a 45 minute podcast dedicated to an all-out experiment on the subject. Then, choose a superior product or solution that firstly works to airlock their fermenting beer, and next meets their fermentation requirement and budget. Here, I found the link. Or, direct .mp3 download 23mb. Also, just noticed this is a new podcast dated 2009-09-07. The original podcast was from a few years ago pre-better bottle. Haven't heard the new one yet, fwiw. Will listen today  




Paddo said:


> Great post reVox, I switched to glass very early on and never looked back.
> 
> Quick question for you. How do you draw samples from the carboy towards the end of fermentation? I've tried a few things but never really been happy with my methods.
> 
> Paddo


I use a glass wine thief:





Picked mine up in the states for a fiver (about 15 years ago). There are plastic wine thieves avail, too. 

Have fun.


----------



## manticle (10/1/10)

reVox said:


> I address the issue of breakability by using carboy handles ($8) and milk crates. That is, I transport, store, aerate my carboys with 1 hand firmly on handle at neck, and the other at milk crate handle (the carboy firmly rests in bottom of crate and is protected by plastic at all sides). I've never known weight to be an issue, even when [email protected], unless you mean full and hard to carry as no real handles are available, which certainly is the case when they're bare. Throw in wet hands and you've got a recipe for disaster. Been there. Agreed with SS being cost prohibitive, hence my won't appeal to 99%, but good clarification on that mostly being a cost issue.
> 
> I don't know how insistent I came across in regard to using any material, specifically. If I had to insist on anything, it would be to ditch the faulty, plastic fermenter. That I will insistently stand by. From there, I'm offering options persons may not have considered eg glass, better bottle or stainless. And further, if they want a real experts opinion, they can listen to a 45 minute podcast dedicated to an all-out experiment on the subject. Then, choose a superior product or solution that firstly works to airlock their fermenting beer, and next meets their fermentation requirement and budget. Here, I found the link. Or, direct .mp3 download 23mb. Also, just noticed this is a new podcast dated 2009-09-07. The original podcast was from a few years ago pre-better bottle. Haven't heard the new one yet, fwiw. Will listen today



I guess I was referring to the phrase 'direct them to use' but really I was just bringing up some related issues rather than having a go at you. I've just bought a glass demijohn for ageing of experimental beers and the idea of getting a few more appeals. It's good to know there are methods to handle and store them safely as knowing myrecent luck with brewing, something's bound to happen.

Better Bottle is something I hadn't thought of either so I might look into that. How do they go with lightstriking of the contents?

Plastic fermenters are easy and cheap which is why they appeal to beginners but everything easy and cheap is almost bound to let you down in one way or another.


----------



## daemon (10/1/10)

reVox said:


> This thread again demonstrates how terribly inefficient the standard Aussie plastic, screw-top fermenter is. Time and time again, this situation presents itself (and it's fine that you asked for direction Big B B) ) but what astounds me is how many deal with it (lack of lock) by not dealing with it :huh: . Rather than address the issue, you glad wrap it? Seriously?
> 
> How can you be sure your fermentation fridge is free from bacteria and airborne contaminants? How can you be sure the room you are fermenting in is free from the same? How close is your ferm to the dunny? To the shower you haven't cleaned in as long as you can remember? Think about it. The next room? 8 steps away from where you've been shitting curry all morning? Yeah, glad wrap strikes me as better than nothing (1 step up from a tea towel draped over the top).


Why do you perceive glad wrap to be any worse than a lid? It's a sealed barrier just like a lid is and the 25 brews I made last year never had a problem (nor the 15 or so using glad wrap the year before that). I put it a step above a lid because you don't have to worry about cleaning and sanitising it and it's still every bit as good for a barrier. 

You don't have to worry about what airborne contaminants are in the fridge / dunny / shower etc that you're worried about as it's sealed. Just because it's not as thick as glass doesn't mean it is somehow more permeable. Comparing it to a teal towel means you haven't thought about it enough.

There's nothing wrong with the plastic fermenters at all, even if the lids don't seal tight. Once fermentation starts there is a positive pressure inside the fermenter and the only "problem" is that if the seal isn't perfect it doesn't bubble through the airlock. You'd need a fair amount of outside atmospheric pressure or temperature difference for the fermenter to suck anything in from the bad seal.


----------



## reVoxAHB (12/1/10)

manticle said:


> Better Bottle is something I hadn't thought of either so I might look into that. How do they go with lightstriking of the contents?


Hey maticle, I asked this same question (albeit with glass) a few of years ago. Here's the thread. 

Coincidentally (as I read it just yesterday), your question was asked in a skunking article by Ray Daniels in the Sept/Oct. 09 issue of Zymurgy, "Should I cover my clear glass fermenter to prevent exposure to light during fermentation and aging?"

Answer: "Probably not. First, normal incandescent lights don't create a problem, so unless you ferment under fluorescent light or expose your fermenters to sunlight, the wavelengths needed for skunking aren't present. Of course more and more people use energy efficient fluorescent lights at home these days and at least some of the bulbs appear to emit light in the harmful range. Check to see if they include mercury, as that's what generates the damaging wavelengths. Still, I'd be skeptical of the danger, in part because the color and cloudiness of beer in the fermenter prevents light from penetrating the brew and reaching much more than a fraction of the isohumulones."



Daemon said:


> Why do you perceive glad wrap to be any worse than a lid? It's a sealed barrier just like a lid is and the 25 brews I made last year never had a problem (nor the 15 or so using glad wrap the year before that). I put it a step above a lid because you don't have to worry about cleaning and sanitising it and it's still every bit as good for a barrier.
> 
> You don't have to worry about what airborne contaminants are in the fridge / dunny / shower etc that you're worried about as it's sealed. Just because it's not as thick as glass doesn't mean it is somehow more permeable. Comparing it to a teal towel means you haven't thought about it enough.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with the plastic fermenters at all, even if the lids don't seal tight. Once fermentation starts there is a positive pressure inside the fermenter and the only "problem" is that if the seal isn't perfect it doesn't bubble through the airlock. You'd need a fair amount of outside atmospheric pressure or temperature difference for the fermenter to suck anything in from the bad seal.



I perceive glad wrap to be worse than a lid, as common plastic wrap is roughly 0.01 mm thick where a lid is what, 1mm at least (I don't have one handy as reference)? Yes, the issue that comes to mind is permeability and how readily elements will permeate based on thickness of material. I have a friend with a now defunct brewery (professional and all the rest, I'm sure you've had his beers over the years) who found a black mold problem on 1 wall (well away from ferm tanks, etc.) Without thinking, he grabbed a bucket with diluted bleach and went to town on the mold. Within a week, his beers started pulling medicinal (chlorophenolic) character. He put it down to yeast, dumped 3 600L ferms, brewed again, 1st gen fresh yeast. Same result. Weeks into months went chasing the prob where he finally dropped $15K for an environmental analysis (of his brewery) where it was determined to be a chlorophenal contaminant. This happened from 1 use, treating a single wall well away from ferms in an ALL stainless brewery.

He (and the science guys) were perplexed at how he could be pulling phenols thru stainless. He looked at his lid seals, hoses, you name it. It took a while, then he finally realised he'd always done his starters in, wait for this, the ever humble aussie screw top plastic fermenter. Bingo. It basically cost him his brewery.

You might not use chlorine based cleaners in your brewery (or house hold), but my logic is that a plastic ferm vessel (with 0.01mm cling film lid) if far more permeable than other materials.

Plastic (even food grade) is oxygen permeable (let alone permeable to heavier nasties). It means, your beer is exposed to the environment, plain and simple. In the real world, a 7-10 day ferment isn't going to introduce oxidation but you are limiting the amount of time the beer should spend in your plastic bucket, plastic ferm, etc. Also, any time the environment is not airlocked you are, in the most direct terms, exposing the beer to possible infection. Plain and simple.

I agree with your take that cliing film can be superior to a lid in its simplicity, in not having to sanitise the lid, seals, grooves, possible scratches, possible areas that have picked up bugs, etc. Which, only affirms how wonky (with areas for infection) those lids can be. You don't have all that crap _anywhere_ in a glass bottle, for example. 

Yes, positive pressure and stable atmospheric and temperature differential is ideal in fermentation. Once positive pressure drops off, cling film doesn't strike me as ideal. A bad seal in a lid doesn't strike me as ideal. How many brewers secondary/bottle/keg on the exact day of stable, final gravity? If you're anything like me, you get around to it when you have the chance.. the weekend perhaps, or even longer. Throw a beginner into this scenario (you're read the threads, is it ok to bottle? when can i drink my beer? etc.) and this is likely further exaggerated.

There's more skew room (or chances that a brewer will produce a cleaner, better beer) by ferming in a truly airlocked environment, in a non or less permeable material, where transfer time can be flexible to the brewer's schedule.

reVox


----------



## yardy (12/1/10)

gday BigB,

mate, ditch the airlock and the glad wrap and go with a blow off tube into a plastic bottle with some diluted betadine, about 250ml of solution is fine.

if you have an old bottle filler cut about 30mm off, it fits perfectly into the grommet in the lid, run about 400mm of sanitised silicon hose from that to the bottle.

you can see in the pic where the ferment _blew off_ into the bottle and caused the betadine to bubble out of the bottle, one word of caution though, when ferment is done and you crash chill if the blow off tube is too short you can draw the sanitised solution into the brew, it's never happened to me but it came close





cheers

Dave


----------



## staggalee (12/1/10)

and 3 cheers for the pail fermenters, they`re head and shoulders over the screw top things. Wish I could get the pail in 15l. size as well, but can`t find one anywhere, only 15 l. screwtop.

stagga.


----------



## mccuaigm (25/1/10)

Well, the bubbling did start after a little more time. I have taken a couple o freadings over the last few days & it has been reading 1.010 & I thought it's ready to keg.

Pulled it out of the fermentation fridge & put it on the bench, the bubbling has started again.

Any advice?

goldy


----------



## pokolbinguy (25/1/10)

Ignore the bubbling and trust your hydrometer readings. If it is not dropping then it should very much be done. The airlock can continue to bubble after ferment is finished, especially if the temp changes and the gas inside the fermenter warms up and "wants out".

Sounds like its ready to keg to me.

Pok


----------



## Bribie G (25/1/10)

goldy said:


> Well, the bubbling did start after a little more time. I have taken a couple o freadings over the last few days & it has been reading 1.010 & I thought it's ready to keg.
> 
> Pulled it out of the fermentation fridge & put it on the bench, the bubbling has started again.
> 
> ...



If it's only an occasional bubble then it's probably just the beer and the headspace expanding slightly as it warms up an sending the odd bubble through the airlock. It's done.


----------



## shawnheiderich (25/1/10)

Most likely CO2 coming out of solution due to temp change, the golden rule is same FG reading over three days then bottle.

Enjoy

Shawn


----------



## manticle (25/1/10)

Measure the gravity?

Carbon dioxide is coming out of solution which is what's causing the bubbling. You should have a rough region of expected final gravity which will depend mainly on the recipe but there are some other potential factors. If you get the same gravity 2 or 3 days in a row then it's most likely finished fermenting. You can now bottle or keg it or you can leave it a bit longer (no harm in 5 days) which will help clean and round out the flavours. A patient man would put it back in the fridge at fermentation temp for 5 days then drop the temp to below 4 degrees for another 5 days after this final gravity figure was confirmed.


----------



## mccuaigm (25/1/10)

Thanks guys,

I decided to keg it & see how it goes.

Since the temp difference is quite significant, I'd say it's just that causing the C02 wanting to escape.

Thanks again


----------

