# Water To Grist Ratios For The Mash.



## Lindsay Dive (23/2/06)

After reading the thread on 'Water to Grain or Grain to Water' I was more than interested to see the varying temperatures of brewers strike water.
Most of the folks here seem to be getting away with a strike temperature much lower that what I use.
My strike temp is around 75 - 76 degrees and I do NOT preheat the mash tun.
My Water to Grain ratio is around the 2.55 - 2.60 litres mark and most times hit the mash temperature of 66 degrees right on the button.
My grain is stored in a pretty cool area of the house though!
What are your thoughts?

Regards,
Lindsay


----------



## AndrewQLD (23/2/06)

Lindsay, my strike temps the most consistant part of my brewday. 75c for 2.5l/kilo will settle my mash at 66c or 73.5c for 3l/kilo will settle my mash at 66c. And I don't preheat my mash tun either, dry grain temp of 23c. And I always seem to hit my mash-in temp on the nose every time.
Just wish the same could be said for my efficiency  

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Gough (23/2/06)

Mmmm... I generally use the same l to g ratio, but I tend to vary my mash temp depending on the beer I'm brewing. I do give my tun a pretty basic pre-heat before adding my grain. If I'm after a mash temp of 66 I need 73-4 degree water at that ratio. I brew outside and find that extremes of temp do have a slight impact either side of that, but it is usually only a degree or two... So similar, but different I guess :blink: 

Shawn.


----------



## warrenlw63 (23/2/06)

I use the same strike temps as Shawn.

LG ratio is 3:1. :beer: 

Warren -


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (23/2/06)

I have a Keep Cold cooler for a mash tun. Never preheat it.
Use 3l/kg and strike water temperature of 73C to get 66C in the mash.

C&B
TDA


----------



## Lindsay Dive (23/2/06)

Very interesting that you guys seem to be going to 3 litres per kilo way.
Andrew's strike temps for the 2.5 L/Kg are very nearly the same as mine.
I'll go and check the temp of the grain.


----------



## Jye (23/2/06)

72C for a 65C mash @ 2.5 L/Kg... but I still get variations in mash efficiency


----------



## AndrewQLD (23/2/06)

Lindsay, I have noticed that a lot of brewers are pedantic about getting the thermal mass of their tun right when calculating strike temps (as they should) but seem to forget the importance of grain temp, this affects the final mash temp as well and can make the difference from a spot on mash temp to one you have to adjust by several degrees.

cheers
Andrew


----------



## Kai (23/2/06)

I have been using a ratio of 3L/kg but I am thinking of cutting it back a little. At the moment I don't really have the thermal mass of my tun worked out nor do I check my grain temperature. I've just been working it out roughly with reasonable success so far.


----------



## bindi (23/2/06)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> I have a Keep Cold cooler for a mash tun. Never preheat it.
> Use 3l/kg and strike water temperature of 73C to get 66C in the mash.
> 
> C&B
> ...



Same as above with the Keep Cold, but now I have a 50L ss tun covered in insulation and are yet to use it, so now I am not sure :huh: anyone help here? 6kg of grain at about 23c
Thanks


----------



## Aaron (23/2/06)

My setup is pretty much the same as what TDA has. I don't concentrate too much on the thermal mass or on grain temp. As you can imagine I often miss my strike temp. I allways aim 2.5l/kg. This gives me some room to adjust the temperature with some boiling water and some cool water.

I normally only ever miss by a couple of degrees. So I just live with it.


----------



## AndrewQLD (23/2/06)

bindi said:


> THE DRUNK ARAB said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Keep Cold cooler for a mash tun. Never preheat it.
> ...



Bindi,
If your using a 50 lt stainless steel mash tun (like me) it will have a thermal mass of 0.120 and I assume if it's like mine it will weigh around 13 kilo, so you should be able to mash in with your strike temp at 73.5c to get your mash to 66c if your grains were at 23c.

Thats
what I do

cheers
Andrew


----------



## Ross (23/2/06)

I give my mash tun a quick flush of hot tap water as it's all S/S - Strike temp for 2.5L/Kg seems to be always 9c above mash temp...

cheers Ross...


----------



## vlbaby (23/2/06)

I use a 50L s/s insulated mash tun, and i find that i lose 9 degC just transfering the water from hlt to mash tun. That works out to be a thermal mass ( as calculated by pro mash ) to 0.423. Quite a bit different to andrewqld. 
If i start with a preheated mash tun full of water at around 72 degc , I usually hit 66degC spot on. 
So my normal routine is preheat hlt to 81 deg, transfer into mash tun which should drop to 72 degC, then add 3kg/L grain to hit 66degC.

vl.


----------



## johnno (23/2/06)

I just do whatever Beersmith tells me.

Seems to work ok.

johnno


----------



## razz (23/2/06)

3 l/kg for mine, I also preheat the grain to approx 30-40 degrees. I sit the grain bag on the lid of the hlt the night before and set the stat on the hlt, works very well. Strike temp is always within one degree. 

Razz


----------



## Lindsay Dive (23/2/06)

Just checked....grain temp. 24 degrees.


----------



## sosman (23/2/06)

I let the software calculate this for me. I don't bother preheating anything.


----------



## cubbie (23/2/06)

I use a ratio of 3:1 and usally heat my water to about 73c depending on the temp of the grain. Always pre-heat the mash tun with a kettle full of boiling water.

At the end of the day Promash is my guide.

This what i did with my partials and what i did with my first AG (which was on the weekend just gone). Didn't get one congrates when I posted my first AG success in another thread


----------



## Stuster (23/2/06)

Congratulations on your first AG then cubbie. :beer: :chug:  :super: 

Must have missed the other mention of this momentous occasion. How did it go?


----------



## cubbie (23/2/06)

It was a rippa, but i do not want to hyjack this thread!

Cheers!


----------



## bindi (23/2/06)

AndrewQLD said:


> bindi said:
> 
> 
> > THE DRUNK ARAB said:
> ...



Thanks Andrew and Ross, as I thought, good info


----------



## Tony (23/2/06)

I have a 50 lter ss ton and use a thermal mass in promash of .175 in summer and .200 in winter but this acounts for the heat that my pump soaks up too so the 0.120 figure previously quoted would be close for sure.

I used a simple method to determine the thermal mass of my system.

Heat the usuall amount of water u use to mash in to 75deg c or so. Make sure you record its exact temperature though.

run it into your mash ton as you would if you were doing a brew and let it sit for about a minuite to stabalise the temps.

run any pumps etc that may change the mash temp at dough in at this time too.

measure the temp again.

now go to promash and put in your grain temp and initial water volumes and temps from the start and wind the thermal mass up till your strike temp is equal to what temp the water cooled down to.

this will give you the systems thermal mass.

mine cools it down 3 or 4 deg depending on how cool or warm my garage is.

cheers


----------



## vlbaby (23/2/06)

Tony said:


> I have a 50 lter ss ton and use a thermal mass in promash of .175 in summer and .200 in winter but this acounts for the heat that my pump soaks up too so the 0.120 figure previously quoted would be close for sure.
> 
> I used a simple method to determine the thermal mass of my system.
> 
> ...


thats interesting tony, i do exactly the same to measure my thermal mass. Maybe it might be a good idea for me to check the accuracy of my temperature probes.

vl.


----------



## bindi (23/2/06)

Tony, again all good stuff  do you realy look like your avatar though? :blink: scary


----------



## Stuster (23/2/06)

I have been using a water to grain ratio of 3:1, but I'm thinking of trying a thicker mash next time, probably 2.5:1. Has anybody found this gives a substantial difference to their beers?

I have been using promash for the temperature calculations and the water is usually about 10c higher than the mash temp I am aiming for. Buuut, I am never exactly spot on the temp so I add 3/4 of the water then check the temp, then add hot or cold water as necessary. (One day very soon I will do the right thing and work it the mash tun thermal mass so I don't have to do all this mucking about. :angry: )


----------



## Darren (23/2/06)

SOS,
What does BG stand for?

cheers
Darren


----------



## Lindsay Dive (23/2/06)

I thought this topic would create interest.
I use a ten gallon rubbermaid water cooler (bloody near worn out) for the mash tun (fitted with a stainless ball cock valve with a Phil's stainless steel false bottom) I fly spage and my efficiency is always around the 90% mark, often above.
But, I've never gone higher than 2.6 ltr/Kg grist ratio.
I really don't know the pro's and con's regarding the grist ratio......help!


----------



## AndrewQLD (23/2/06)

Lindsay Dive said:


> I thought this topic would create interest.
> I use a ten gallon rubbermaid water cooler (bloody near worn out) for the mash tun (fitted with a stainless ball cock valve with a Phil's stainless steel false bottom) I fly spage and my efficiency is always around the 90% mark, often above.
> But, I've never gone higher than 2.6 ltr/Kg grist ratio.
> I really don't know the pro's and con's regarding the grist ratio......help!
> [post="110647"][/post]​



Lindsay, you do ask interesting questions don't you :lol: , at the risk of a thorough flaming, as opinions differ on the subject a higher water to grain ratio in conjuction with lower mash temps (read 64-66c) leads to a more attenuating wort. the higher the mash temp and thicker the mash leads to more dextrines being produced.
Go for it guys h34r: h34r: 

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Gough (23/2/06)

No flaming from me Andrew. That's basically my understanding and experience as well  I guess I'm in the flame line now as well, so fire away :lol: 

Shawn.


----------



## warrenlw63 (24/2/06)

Let's throw all the rules out the window and ask what happens if we reverse the process. For example, we go for a lower LG ratio and lower mash temp (64-65) and our results on a higher LG ratio and higher mash temp? :unsure: This sort of runs a counter to Andrew's thoughts OTOH which I subscribe to and I'd say are on the mark. That said would things change if the process (LG ratios and temps are reversed?) Just thinking experimentally here. 

More fuel for the fire and splashing on the flame suits. :lol: 

From my own tastebuds and primitive equipment and uneven mash temps. Swirl the thermometer around the grainbed. The differentials can often be scary even after thorough mixing.  

I'm all for the higher LG ratio (3:1) only for the fact that I'm of the belief that more liquid in the tun (and reduced viscosity) should disperse the temperature more evenly no matter what. I learnt that lesson from Wes Smith several years ago and seem to gain more consistent results as a consequence.

Lower LG ratios of say 2:1 are bound to create pockets of temperature and grain turmoil. So me, myself and I prefer the higher LG ratio. 

Vote for soup over stew. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## Lindsay Dive (24/2/06)

C'mon Wes, we're waiting!


----------



## warrenlw63 (24/2/06)

Bear in mind Lindsay Wes recommended those LG ratios to me when I first started using Marris Otter and Weyermann malts when they first came into circulation here in about 2001.  

I've been mashing 3:1 ever since and have no cause to complain.  

Warren -


----------



## KoNG (24/2/06)

I'm 3:1, but mash in at 2.5:1 and then adjust mash temp with remaining liquor as others have mentioned. i usually use a HLT temp of 10*C above my mashing temp.

Does anyone know the approximate thermal mass for a 10 Gal round Igloo cooler.?


----------



## warrenlw63 (24/2/06)

KoNG

When I used to use a 10 Gal Igloo I had my thermal-mass set on ProMash at 0.30 IIRC it was the recommended setting by ProMash.

Seemed to work fine. :beerbang: 

Warren -


----------



## wessmith (24/2/06)

OK,OK, the best L/G compromise in my book is 3:1. Traditional English ale brewers used to use 2.7:1 but I think today you will find them more like 3 or even 4:1. Trying to mash in at 2.5:1 with anything other than a coursely ground grist is difficult and almost nigh impossible in a larger micro. 

The optimum L/G ratio for the diastase to be most effective is 2.7:1. However in practice, thinner mashes work best allowing a greater dispersment of the diastase (even though it is slightly more diluted), more even temperatures throughout the mash and overall better temp stability. 

I personally use 3:1 for ales and pilsners and 3.5:1 for wheats and wits. It is also a fact that thinner mashes result in more attenuable worts. We have also run single infusion mashes in a micro at 4:1 with no problems.

Wes


----------



## Tony (24/2/06)

Bindi..... no thats not me 

I mash at 3:1 but have been reading to the contry.

Greg Noonans book says that enzyms are more viable in a thicker mash but he is generally refering to higher dextrin content beers, not easily atenuated maltose based beers.

I king of like malty beers (ales and lagers) so i am going to drop back to 2.5:1 and see what happens.

that mash paddle should keep her stired up.

Here is a pic of me at a B&S ball for those concerned. Mot sure which is scarier  

Ah those were the days.

Sorry for hijac 

cheers


----------



## Jazzafish (24/2/06)

From Pro Mash:



> Mash Tun Thermal Mass
> 
> The amount of heat (expressed from 0.0 to 1.0) the mash tun will absorb. If you heat your water in the mash tun, or pre-heat the mash tun itself then the thermal mass will be 0.0. If you infuse into a cold mash tun you will need to know the thermal mass. If you do not know the thermal mass of your mash tun, we suggest starting with a value of 0.30 and comparing results with actual strike temperatures hit to accurately determine the thermal tun of your mash. This elements default value can be set in the System Defaults, so the same thermal mass can be used over and over without resetting the element.



So Basically, I just heat my strike water in the mash tun (25L Esky) to the temps pro mash tells me. I always take a temperature reading of the grain as late as possible. Then add the grain to the water. Normally hit the mark pretty easily.

Looking at my last brew, 

I had 4.5Kg of grain at 26*C
Heated 13.5L of water to 71*C (3:1 ratio)
Added the grain while stirring to avoid dough balls
Hit target of 66*C

Keep in mind I have a hand held element, and use a fermenter as a HLT. 

However I'm going to try underletting next brew. The time it takes to get the water from my hlt to the mash tun may cause a bit of temperature problems?


----------



## KoNG (24/2/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> KoNG
> 
> When I used to use a 10 Gal Igloo I had my thermal-mass set on ProMash at 0.30 IIRC it was the recommended setting by ProMash.
> 
> ...



Thanx Warren,
i use BeerSmith and i'm fairly certain thats what it is set at.
Although i wonder if it is right, as i heat my water approx 2-3*C higher than the suggested. I guess my manifold system needs to be factored in aswell.?
i bit of tweeking is needed me thinks  


Big 400 :super:


----------



## warrenlw63 (24/2/06)

KoNG

Tweaking can only be achieved by making more beer. What a bugger eh? :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## Darren (24/2/06)

I alays thought that L/G ratios were determined by the minimum rather than the maximum amount of water and the size of your tun.
That is, If you have a 5:1 L/G ratio you would need a huge tun and more $ to make it. 

Too thick and it balls up and is a bastard to stir.

cheers
Darren


----------



## sosman (24/2/06)

Darren said:


> SOS,
> What does BG stand for?
> [post="110645"][/post]​


Boil Gravity (pre boil).


----------



## Darren (24/2/06)

thanks.

cheers
darren


----------



## Lindsay Dive (25/2/06)

Thanks for all the replies.

The next Pilsner I attack I'm going to go for a w/g ratio of 2.8:1 and see if there is any difference with my present brew.
I won't change anything else and see if the beer is a little thinner or possibly a tad dryer!

Warren, IIRC! If I Read Correctly, is that right?
I'm getting too old for this stuff. 

Regards,
Lindsay.


----------



## Trent (25/2/06)

Wow
Looks like I am an anomoly  . I use a 44L mashtun, always pre-heat it with hot tap water until the mash water is nearly ready. I never mash over 2.1L/kg grain (although my batch last weekend I used 2.3L to see the diff, none yet  ). I usually add my mash water at 6C above the temp I am aiming for, and, like Gough, I vary my mash temp according to the beer I am making. I think that making a thinner mash leads to a more attenuative beer, wheras a thick mash (like mine) leads to a fuller bodied beer (I think :huh: ), and definitely higher FG's. Going back through my notes, there arent too many beers in the last 6 months that have finished below 1014. I am quite happy with my ratio's, I dont have any brew software, so I do all my calcs by hand, as per John Palmer's numbers, and they work out pretty well. Maybe I should try a 3:1 mash one day, but on the same hand, I would also recommend you try a 2.1:1 mash, on your most commonly brewed beer, just to see the difference. Should be interesting to experiment with....
All the best
Trent


----------



## Tony (25/2/06)

Hey trent.

I have spoken to a couple of brewers that also mash at 2:1 and the literature i have been reading suports it.

I am going to make a dunkelwiezen next weekend with 60% wheat and a heap of Weyermann minich 1 .

Was going to do a decoction mash and might mash at 2 - 2.5:1 with a couple of liters of rice hulls.

cheers


----------



## Lindsay Dive (25/2/06)

Hm, that's thrown a spanner in the works for present time.
Waiting for more!

Regards,
Lindsay.


----------



## Doc (26/2/06)

Typically 3.2 l/kg for me simply because if I don't have that volume in the mash I won't have enough volume in the HLT for sparging to collect 47 litres.
When doing a 23 litre brew length I go for 2.8 l/kg.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Trent (26/2/06)

Hey Tony
That makes me feel a bit better  . Good luck with the dunkelweizen, I was thinking about doing a single decoction myself when the weather gets a bit cooler, just to see how it goes, and how to do it. How many decoctions are you doing? Keep us up to date with how it goes, be interesting to see if it makes a big difference.
All the best
Trent


----------

