# Brewing Systems: BIAB, 2V, 3V, BM etc.



## Spiesy (3/11/13)

So, I'm interested in upgrading from my 70l BIAB system. Homebrew is easily my biggest hobby and passion in life, has been for a couple of years now, and I'm only getting more obsessed with time.

I've read up a bit on 3V RIMS (which I'm keen on), 3V HERMS (which I'm not so keen on) and then today I was reading up on the expensive beast that is Braumeister. 

Everything has it's pro's and con's - but if you had a *budget of around $3.5k* and wanted to buy or build a system that could *easily pump out double batches (40l out of the brewery)* - what would you do, knowing what you know now?

Keen to hear the general consensus and the rationale behind your decision.


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## wbosher (3/11/13)

If I had 3.5K I'd continue to BIAB and take the missus and kids on a holiday. Or if I could palm the kids off, go on a cruise with her indoors.


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## Spiesy (3/11/13)

wbosher said:


> If I had 3.5K I'd continue to BIAB and take the missus and kids on a holiday. Or if I could palm the kids off, go on a cruise with her indoors.


For the sake of the argument, pretend you don't have a brew system.


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## NewtownClown (3/11/13)

http://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/index.php/everything-mashing/breweries-brew-sculptures/product/148-68ltr-3-vessel-brewery-brew-sculpture


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## Spiesy (3/11/13)

NewtownClown said:


> http://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/index.php/everything-mashing/breweries-brew-sculptures/product/148-68ltr-3-vessel-brewery-brew-sculpture


Yep. Eyeing off their systems. Very nice.


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## Rurik (3/11/13)

I like this question and had it myself a few years ago at the same budget. I brought a 20l BM because it worked in my situation. I live in a three bedroom town house and have four kids plus my wife so space is at a premium. We also plan on buying a unit in the city in the future so the space problem is not going away any time soon so I need to have a space efficient system. Also there is a need for it to run on electricity for space reason and due to the strata arrangement it had to work off 10amp. I work from home so I wanted a set and forget while I got about my day. If I need 40l I can brew twice in a day or I can brew two days in a row or I can use malt extract and water it down. 


I am very happy with my choice and would not change it but it may not work for you.


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## Spiesy (3/11/13)

Without wishing to sway anyone - for me, at the moment, I'm torn between 3v RIMS and 50l BM. For these reasons:

*3V RIMS:*
*Pro's*
Cheaper
More flexibility (can produce higher gravity worts) and more manual control

*Con's*
Bigger, requires more space and more time to clean
Not automated, requires more attention throughout brew day (an issue, we're hoping to start a family sometime soon)

*50l BRAUMEISTER*
*Pro's*
Smaller footprint, ran electrically - so can be run indoors
Less cleaning
More automation, less attention required throughout brew day

*Con's*
More expensive
Less flexible (slight restriction in amount of brew styles and strengths that can be brewed).

Probably more pro's and con's that I'm not yet aware of.


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## doon (3/11/13)

Trust me unless you have a good extraction fan you dont want to brew indoors with a bm unless you want sticky condensation running down all your walls.

I was doing it with a 20 and it was bad enough


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## doon (3/11/13)

And with a bm 50 pretty sure you could brew quite high gravity brews if you dont mind having less finished product


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## dicko (3/11/13)

I thought long and hard before I sold my beloved 3v herms 50 litre brew rig..but in the end I did sell it and got a BM.
My reasons were the first, to scale down in size
The second was that lifting those big pots and all that cleaning was getting me down and I was putting off brewing because of it.
The third was that the BM is set and almost forget which then gives me time to do other things while brewing.
The fourth was that I gained a heap of space in my brew area if compared to the 3V Herms.

Like many other people I had spent a lot more money building the 3V Herms brewery than you ever get back and a lot more than if I had just gone and bought a 50l BM. As it is, I opted for the 20l version which suits my needs.
I very rarely brew "big" beers and for that reason the BM suits me just fine.




doon said:


> Trust me unless you have a good extraction fan you dont want to brew indoors with a bm unless you want sticky condensation running down all your walls.
> 
> I was doing it with a 20 and it was bad enough


I have done 40 brews with my BM in the garage which is UMR and lined with gyprock and painted and prior to that I had done at least 60 brews with the old brewery with a 100 litre kettle that had a diameter of nearly 1 metre and a Nasa burner and I don't see any evidence of any sticky residue....not saying it may not happen in a small room with no ventilation.

I was always lead to believe that when wort boils it is the water that evaporates as steam and the sugars stay in the kettle.

If staining occurs when boiling wort is probably more due to the walls being dirty with fat or cooking residue and the steam enhances this.

Good lick with whichever way you decide to go Spiesy.


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## Rurik (3/11/13)

Spiesy said:


> Without wishing to sway anyone - for me, at the moment, I'm torn between 3v RIMS and 50l BM. For these reasons:
> 
> *3V RIMS:*
> *Pro's*
> ...


This was my answers to the pros and cons when I asked them to myself. I am just sharing to give you another POV. Please take it as such and not me trying to sell you a unit. 

When I looked at it the 3V was just as much as the BM when brought ready to go. If you are going to make it you still need to factor in your time and the cost of tooling up. Now a build may appeal to you. As to the more control, how? The BM can be manually driven with accuracy to a degree. If you want to program it it can have five steps to within a degree. Also the ongoing cost are much less as the cost of per unit energy making it into your brewing is a lot less. Yes they are more flexible with the range of gravity you can brew but the question I asked myself was how much beer did I make that had an OG over 1.060. The reply was not much and there are ways of exceeding this in a BM. 

As to the BM cons. There is just as much cleaning in a BM time wise as it is rather fiddly, it is not hard or anything but it has to be done and there is no quick way of doing it. Also see my comments in regards to cost above. 

I brew indoor with a pretty average extraction fan in one spot and none in the other. I have never had a problem with condensation I just brew next to an open window with a cross breeze.


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## Rurik (3/11/13)

dicko said:


> I have done 40 brews with my BM in the garage which is UMR and lined with gyprock and painted and prior to that I had done at least 60 brews with the old brewery with a 100 litre kettle that had a diameter of nearly 1 metre and a Nasa burner and I don't see any evidence of any sticky residue....not saying it may not happen in a small room with no ventilation.
> 
> I was always lead to believe that when wort boils it is the water that evaporates as steam and the sugars stay in the kettle.
> 
> If staining occurs when boiling wort is probably more due to the walls being dirty with fat or cooking residue and the steam enhances this.


I concur with this experience.


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## Rurik (3/11/13)

Having said all that I have said go and have a look at this setup.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/76372-for-sale-3v-herms-100ltr-system-brisbane/

I know it is on the other side of the country but I don't think it would cost you $1500 to ship it.


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## Bribie G (3/11/13)

What is this upgrading you speak of? Do you want to make beer or tinker with equipment? Nothing wrong with the latter of course, more power to the Arduino (whatever that is)

I can rip out a 50L brew using BIAB in an urn plus a twenty dollar esky any time I like, and top quality.

Got a good blind-tasting peer review on my quality over the weekend, picking up a gong for second place in the Pale Lagers at the Nats, very chuffed and many thanks to the Canberra organisers. :super:


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## QldKev (3/11/13)

My 2c based on my personal experiences.

*BIAB*
A great way for brewing. If you want to have temp control or do step mashing it becomes harder than it needs to be. Wanting to do step mashing easily was the only reason I moved away from it. I also tried up-scaling the system. I build a side by side setup so I could brew 2 BIAB brews simultaneously. I tried a double size BIAB setup, and even ended up with a 100L (beer output) system.

*1V* (recirculating BIAB/BIAP brew in a pot?)
I use a (28L beer output) recirculating system with a pot to hold the grain, having a slotted bottom for recirculation. A standard heating element sits just under the pot. The element is used to maintain the heat, to allow step mashing, and also for the boil . I love using mine, it is quick to setup, fun to use and quick to clean up. The only issue I see is by the time you scale it to a bigger system you loose a lot of that easy to use characteristic about it.

*3V *
Mine has an element under the false bottom I call an internal RIMS, and also a HERMS. It can do up to a 112L (beer output) batch and I found one element for the heat exchanger was not enough, hence I ended up with RIMS and HERMS. The RIMS can be a pain when mashing at lower temperatures. If I'm doing an acid rest I have to wait for the HERMS alone to bring up the temperature as shit always burns onto the RIMS element at that temperature. There is a lot more to setup, and a hell lot more at cleaning time. I do find the main run pretty straight forward.

*Braumeister*
I have never used one, or even seen one in action. So I can't really comment on this. I do see most people enjoying the use, but see people talking about limitations for grains bills etc.



I think all the systems are great ways of making great beer.


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## Bribie G (3/11/13)

Great post Kev - would take issue on the step mash thingo, with BIAB because you have to raise the temperature to boiling anyway, you get the steps "for free", although I take your point that it can involve a tad more work with re-lagging the mashtun between steps.

As your venerable Premier Joh who is now reborn in his new persona said; " there's many ways of skinning a cat"


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## Crusty (3/11/13)

I've had a 3V Rims, PID controlled, & for me, it was very bulky, was a pain to use & I encountered a few stuck sparges which peeved me off. I ended up selling it because I wanted something a bit more simple.
I moved on to Biab in an urn. Simple system, great results but the exposed element means a hassle to step mash, especially at protein rest temperatures. I lose a couple of degrees over a 90min mash but the beers are turning out great. I would like the ability to step mash more simply, control mash temps better & not have to just do single infusions.
I think I would get a 50lt BM if I had the coin. Small malt pipe for experimental batches & a bit less finished volume if you want to create really big beers.
Full control with a small footprint.


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## Bribie G (3/11/13)

Protein rest with BIAB and an urn can be nasty as you can toast the element. However that can be worked around with an addition of boiling water to do that initial raise up to sacch. rest, then the urn hadles everything from there on.
That aside, what issues have you had with stepping, Crusty? I just move from step to step with stirring/pumping the mash with a paint stirrer then wrap the urn up again for the 40 minutes or whatever per step.


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## timmi9191 (3/11/13)

Off topic

Anyone step mash BIAB via a Hermes? I Use a 60l frosty boy esky as a mash tun and double batch. Was considering building a manifold and running it through a Hx to step mash. Anyone?


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## Spiesy (3/11/13)

Bribie G said:


> What is this upgrading you speak of? Do you want to make beer or tinker with equipment? Nothing wrong with the latter of course, more power to the Arduino (whatever that is)
> 
> I can rip out a 50L brew using BIAB in an urn plus a twenty dollar esky any time I like, and top quality.


Upgrading to easily allow for stepping, sparging and a bit more control. The BM, if I go down that road, also offers a lot of automation.

I'm (mostly) making good beers now, but I still want to get better. I'm under no illusion that the equipment is all I need to make better beers, but it will likely help.


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## Spiesy (3/11/13)

I'm surprised to see HERMS smashing RIMS, as my previous reading of AHB threads lead me to believe that RIMS was the favoured system.

Are people voting HERMS due to RIMS' tendency to scorch at lower rest temps (as I've read in this thread)?


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## QldKev (3/11/13)

Spiesy said:


> I'm surprised to see HERMS smashing RIMS, as my previous reading of AHB threads lead me to believe that RIMS was the favoured system.
> 
> Are people voting HERMS due to RIMS' tendency to scorch at lower rest temps (as I've read in this thread)?


As the poster of the comment, I voted HERMS for that reason.

If you get an element with a low enough heat density the RIMS should be ok. I just think HERMS is safer at the lower temperatures.


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## Spiesy (3/11/13)

Thanks Kev.


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## QldKev (3/11/13)

If you don't mind some copper in the brewery I would design the HERMS using tightly wound coil as they use in a reflux still column in a 2" tube with a kegking element shoved up the middle. 

(pic stolen from here) Using the coil on the right hand side in this pic. You could go a 2" or even a 3" version


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## Dan Pratt (3/11/13)

After 24 brews this year with my BM and likely to complete another 4-5 before 2013 comes to a close, I can say that i often think it would be nice to have a 3V system and allow for the hands on action and the manual attention to the brew day, somewhat similar to a micro or nano brew house. Then I think about how good it is to set and forget for a few hours and do other stuff while the BM does its thing ( being a new dad that matters right now ).

The BM's have their limitations but as you know, making great beer is about many factors, not just the mash. If you wants hands on & active brewing, go with the 3V, if you want to spend time doing a few other things while the mash happens go with the BM, for me it works. ( clean up factors are obvious ) 

What is it about BIAB that you feel, your beers are missing?


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## Lodan (3/11/13)

Grain bill limitations on th BM can be offset by DME addition.

Stick with the BIAB or move to the BM for simplicity, size and automation

Only go with the others if you want a new project and think you can come up cheaper than store purchased


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## Brad Churchill (3/11/13)

You mentioned you were looking at starting a family soon. 
Go the 50L Braumeister and if you can afford it the short malt pipe for experimental brews. 

There would be nothing worse than putting together a beaut 3V system and then not having the time to brew on it. I have a 50L Braumeister a 3 kids and it makes a huge difference as to when you can and can't brew. Prior to this I had a 3V system so I can make the comparison.

I haven't really found any limitations with the Braumeister. It is just a kick arse well made piece of equipment that gives you ease of operations and great consistency.

If you like to do decoction mashes then that might be an issue for you ....

Cheers
Brad


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## Crusty (3/11/13)

Bribie G said:


> That aside, what issues have you had with stepping, Crusty?


No real issues with step mashing, just a bit more mucking around.
The one thing I hate about Biab, & it's the only thing I hate, is constantly rousing the mash with my paint stirrer. It takes a little while to get from sacc rest to mash out & it's a real workout. I've only step mashed a couple of times with the urn & although not a serious problem, heating, rousing the mash & re-lagging the urn is a PITA.
I loved how the PID just took it from one temp to the next & rested for the set time before moving onto the next step.
I'm a bit time poor with the three kids so doing a single 90min infusion gives me a little window to take them to Macca's for lunch or drop them off in town or pick them up from friends houses etc. As far as the quality of the beers coming from the urn, no complaints here.


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## seamad (4/11/13)

One plus of a 3V system is you can dough in a second brew whilst getting the first to the boil, not a big time penalty for twice the output.and no extra cleaning.


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## Spiesy (4/11/13)

A dominating display from the 50l Brau overnight!


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## jzabski (4/11/13)

I have never had a 3 vessel system how my mate had a great HERMS set up and we both build brau clones. He says he will never use his 3V again and is thinking of selling due to the ease of use and great quality of beers. I love my clone and the beers coming out of it. The only down size i see is not being able to do big grain bills like a Russian imperial stout. Go the BM it really is that easy.


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## Eggs (4/11/13)

I currently use gas fired BIAB but have been looking at building one of the recirculating BIAB or pot in a pot type sysetms. Ive been undecided between one of punkins RIMS or a herm-it HERMS.
I dont have the cash now so its all just speculative for me. I use a 65lt pot now and plan to have a basket made to fit inside. I hope its just large enough to do double batches. Ill probably use my old urn as a HLT so i suppose it would be a 2 vessel system.


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## tavas (4/11/13)

I have a 50lt BM and purchased for the same reasons as mentioned: set and forget nature, consistency, small footprint, plus we have 2 small kids around so being able to put the BM in a place little hands can't touch is important for me.

I was in the process of trying to make a single vessel recirc clone when my wife decided to buy the BM for me. Her logic was "how long will it take and how much will it cost to build?"
So we bought one and never looked back.

I have not done big beers with it (nothing over 1.065) and have no intention to do so. If I ever get the urge to have a RIS I'll go and buy it.

As for the thought that a BM is hands off, you still have to design your beer, fill it with water, crack your grain, mash in, sparge, remove grain and cube/chill. The only hands off aspect to a BM is the mash time/temp which some 3V systems have anyway.

With my BM, I bought time. Make more beer, less frequently, and get back an hour or two during the mash when I can be doing something else. Plus the missus is happy so happy wife, happy life.

I should also point out that the beers do not taste any different than my BIAB versions.


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## lael (5/11/13)

Made a Brau clone. First system. Built for the same reasons everyone else mentioned. Still wishing / thinking auto hopping would be nice. 

I love mine! Can do up to 50L of 1.050/55. Did a weaty clone and ended up with just about 28L @ 1.093 including sugars, which most bigger beers have. 

Definitely took some time and effort finding all the parts, but satisfying, and a ton cheaper than the real thing. Pretty easy to clean up and a cinch to use. 

Cheers!


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## evvy.rogerson (27/7/14)

Hey Mark!

What did you end up going with?


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