# Beer Aftertaste Problem



## Beer Krout (4/7/05)

I guess the best method of finding out what Im doing wrong would be to get an expert taster to taste it for me.

Ive got an aftertaste problem with all my brews so far. Im not sure what exactly what the problem is, or what is causing it.
Ive tried different yeasts and different styles of beers but am constantly getting this issue.
The beer usually tastes good very early on and then gets slowly worse (which is confusing and frustrating).

At first I thought it was dry yeast, such as SAFale. Then using wet yeast I was getting a similar aftertaste.
Just recently I started thinking it was oxygenation, but now I am starting to think it might be my cleaning methods with bleach? 
I do rinse three times with hot water and then once again with cold water each time. 
I have been known to leave a fermenter soaking in a weak bleach solution for a week or so. 
Is there a possibility the plastic fermenter is soaking up the chlorine and beer is absorbing it from the plastic during fermentation?
Does this mean I will have buy new fermenters?

All my friends have not the experience to comment on the type of aftertaste itself. Although one did tell me an aftertaste was like medicine.

Im not interesting getting this after taste again.

BK


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## warrenlw63 (4/7/05)

BK,

Sounds like the bleach. How much are you using? You really only need about 30-50ml in your average 25-30 litre fermenter.

If the problem persists soak the fermenter in some Napisan and hot water overnight, rinse out with hot and cold water.

Only soak with bleach for an hour, rinse and use. Don't leave the fermenter soaking in the bleach for extended periods. Wash and dry it between uses.

Warren -


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## Beer Krout (4/7/05)

Much appreciated advice, warrenlw63.

Is the Napisan likely to save me the cost of two new fermenters?

I'll head down and buy some today.


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## warrenlw63 (4/7/05)

Should do BK,

It's quite good at removing odours. 2-3 teaspoons in hot water. Soak overnight and rinse thoroughly with hot or cold water. 

Warren -


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## Tony M (4/7/05)

I vaguely remember that chlorine breaks down somewhere around 33C or thereabouts so a good sluice of very hot water should get rid of it. Mind you I dont know the chemistry, it might turn into something really stinky, but someone here will be an expert.


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## jgriffin (4/7/05)

Chlorine breaks down anyway in the sun, just leave em out for the day in the sun without the lids on.

Medicine sounds like bleach, but it could also just be that "kit twang"


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## Beer Krout (4/7/05)

Thanks Tony M and jgriffin and again warrenlw63.
Ok. So there is a good possibility I might be able to clean them up. 
Excellent news.


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## dickTed (4/7/05)

Don't think it's the bleach man, unless, perhaps you're using the lemon scented bleach?

Point is, I've used nothing but White King regular, have left things soaking in it overnight etc., no aftertaste problems.

Changing to Napisan won't do any harm. Let us know what happens. Good Luck.


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## Mr Bond (4/7/05)

Bleach(sodium hypoclorite) is my friend too.

use it in fermenter and bottles etc........ 24 hr soak, double cold rinse and 2 days air dry in the good ol aussie sun without any funky flavas.

Used to use miltons until i discovered it @ $2.50 for 2litres locally.
Mix at 40 ml per 5 litres.(same as the recommended rate for sterilising baby bots)


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## Darren (4/7/05)

BK,
If you use Napisan it is advisable to "pop" the top of the container before you buy it and give it a "sniff".
I bought some recently and it smelled strongly of pine "o" clean or dettol.
Seems they put perfume in some. I will be buggered if I can see where abouts on the label it says "perfumed".
The batches i have bought before have had little or no smell.
Sniff before you buy.
cheers
Darren


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## Beer Krout (4/7/05)

Thanks guys

I had been doing canned kits till the last batch which was a ESB Fresh Wort Kit (Pilsner).

I've been using White King Regular (unscented) from the start. Must admit I have not been measuring the concentrations and just been splashing some in.

Bought the Napisan OxyAction Max (hot pink container), it has that washing detergent smell.

Have plans to get the sosman to taste a couple of my brews and maybe point me in the right direction.

Cheers
BK


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## Bilph (4/7/05)

I use bleach and often leave fermenters soaking for several days. Mine just get drained well, rinsed well with cold water then given a wash out with a phosphoric acid based steriliser and a final rinse with boiled water.
The bleach solution is weak. Pretty close to the 30-50ml per 25-30l strength Warren suggested.
No problems here.


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## Weizguy (5/7/05)

G'day,

Don't know why no-one else has mentioned this, but I have seen it in the past.

*Wild yeast produce medicinal flavours*.

It may not be the chlorine at all. Do you use a scourer in your fermentor, and/or clean/ disassemble the tap and clean the threads? All prime sources for contamination, and very common places to forget about.

A friend here also suggests that your bottles may be propagating the taste,
but I still insist that U check the tap and threads too.

Seth


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## Beer Krout (5/7/05)

Thanks Weizguy for your input. 

I usually clean the fermenter krausen ring sediment with hot water and tissues with the intention of not creating scratches.

Haven't payed that much attention to the threads of the screw top for the fermenter, although they the inside of the lid usually gets the bleach treament.

The tap is dissassembled and left soaking in a bleach solution, usually till it's needed again. Rinsed three times in hot water before use, of course.

The bottles are left to sit in a bleach solution for at least a day then emptied and left in their boxes.
I use the Morgan's Sanitise with no rinsing on bottling day. 

BK


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## Weizguy (5/7/05)

BK,

I meant the threads where the tap screws in. I get a bit of build-up in there, and clean with a sponge and or bottle brush.

I usually clean up with pink detergent and rinse the brew vessel. On brewday, I will usually fill the fermentor with water, add an egg cup of cheap plain bleach, add other bits (spoon, airlock, grommet, anything else), put lid on and leave for 10 minutes. Then drain and rinse all with hot water until bleach smell is gone. put grommet and airlock back into lid and keep lid on for the short walk from tap to brew area, where the brew is almost immediatley added to the fermentor. So there is a short time (window) for contamination.

Seth


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## BRAD T (5/7/05)

I recently opened a Lager that has been sitting there for 2 1/2 months lagering to find that it had succumbed to a wild yeast infection. Medicinal , Band Aid type of taste to it. I didn't detect anything during fermentation or bottling. 
As this was the first time this had happened, I was not sure what it may have been, took a bottle to LHBS and the owner Colin was able to identify the problem straight away. Have done about 6 brews since and have not had any problems. 
All I can say is I don't know where it came from but I hope it will be the last for a while. It is quite dissapointing to open a brew after a couple of months to find out that it is crap.

Cheers
BradT


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## Beer Krout (13/7/05)

Hi guys

The sosman went beyond the call. I am in much debt to him.
I gave him four beers for testing and got back eight beer judging sheets all filled out. Him and one of his mates tasted them on Sunday, just gone.

The news is mixed.
The guys have not detected any oxidation or bleach related tastes.
The aftertaste is a sourness. Possibly lactic in three of the brews.

I suspect this isn't good news.
It's time to go ... fermenter?

BK

PS. There was talk that the sourness could be due to old extracts.


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## Linz (14/7/05)

Krout,

hoof the tap(if you have pulled it apart and cleaned it) and not the entire fermenter


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## Lufah (14/7/05)

You may need to look to your methods. How long are you letting the beer sit on the trub in primary? Yeast autoalysis could cause some funky flavors. If it was the bleach you would be creating Chlorophenols by combining the chlorine from the bleach and phenols from the yeast. This will give you a medicine taste.

The lactic sourness sounds like wild yeast. I would get a new fermentor and use the old one for making lambics. Of course I'm always looking for a reason to buy more gear.

Any idea how old the extract was? That could be a big problem also. I would try and find out from your supplier how old the stuff is.

Travis


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## Beer Krout (14/7/05)

Linz and Lufah

Answering your questions
I clean the disassemble and clean the taps during every wash. 
I don't let beer sit on the trub for more than a week. 

I'm going on the theory that not all my kits and extracts could be too old and stale.
The beer tends to taste good early too.

I have heard lactobacillus is notoriously hard to clean out of a fermenter.

BK


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## vlbaby (14/7/05)

Beer Krout,
If you really suspect your fermenters are imparting the funky flavours, then before you through them out, I would suggest this. You fill one with pre-boiled ( sanitised ) water or even just boiling water, seal the lid and leave it to sit for a week or so, then have a taste. If the fermenter is adding flavours, it will be 10 times harder for it to hide in plain water as compared to your beer.

Ofcourse, if it is an infection problem your fermenter is causing, this probably wont tell you anything, but it will at least let you know is there is flavours leaching in your beer.

BTW I never thro out old fermenters, you'll find a use for them somewhere else in your brewery. I have one as a HLT.


vlbaby.


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## warrenlw63 (14/7/05)

Exactly the reasons I dumped plastic and went across to glass.

1) No taps to stress about and;

2) No scratches (that I know of) to harbour bacteria.

Worth the extra stuffing around in terms of cleaning.

Warren -


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## Steve (14/7/05)

Brad
What was the brew and what yeast did you use?
Cheers
Steve


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## Lufah (14/7/05)

Another thing I thought about, are you reusing yeast? That could carry over and wild yeast or bacteria.

Travis


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## pint of lager (14/7/05)

Infections can be hard to track down.

Remeber that every surface that comes in contact with your beer must be clean and sanitised. Lids, threads, grommets, o'rings, can opener, stirring spoon should be plastic or steel not wooden, the tap spout just prior to racking or filling bottles, don't float the hydrometer in the fermenetr, use a test jar and throw away or drink the sample, don't pour it back in and the fluid in the airlock that gets drawn back in when you pick up the fermenter are all possible sources.

One brewer I know of, he always had a similar problem to you. He found that he couldn't brew in his kitchen. Once he moved to the laundry, his infection problem went away.


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## Beer Krout (14/7/05)

Steve
I was not trying to make a Guinness or a Belgium lambic sour "style".
It's not just been one beer, it's been a number of batches that have had this problem.
I've used WLP-001, WLP-004, Wyeast Czech Pilsner and Saflager.

Lufah
I haven't been reusing yeast as a rule. I did do this once and the batch was infected and I had to chuck it out.

pint of lager
You right there's a lot of things to think about, everytime you do any thing with the brew. I have/had been soaking anything that touches the brew in bleach for up to days. I don't float the hydrometer in the fermenter or throw back the samples. I put boiling water in the airlock.
My fermenting is done in the bathroom and bottling in the laundry.

If it's lactic infection have I got a chance of getting out?

Does a lactic (sour) infection normally show itself straight away. Or does it take a few months to build up sourness?

I just tasted an amber ale that is not quite two weeks in the bottle. Tastes great at the moment. I plan to drink it quickly before the lactic sourness slowly sets in.


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## sosman (14/7/05)

Brett,

Whereas it is possible you may have some infection in your brewery, it is not the first place I would look. For peace of mind give everything a good clean and sanitise.

Given that there may be question over the age of some of the kit/extract that may explain the cidery taste in one of your brews. The sulphury note in the pils is probably just a normal byproduct of fermentation and will probably disappear.

It is easy to imagine flavours that are not really there, that is why I wanted a friend to help out with the tasting, even though I have judged hundreds of beers. Different people are also sensitive to different flavours and aromas.

If you are not up for a partial mash just yet, grab a reputable kit that is known to be fresh, and don't dilute it too much and add quality adjuncts. If you search around on here I am sure you will find some kit recommendations. After that it might be easier to track down other sources of "off flavours".

FWIW I would try to work on one variety of kit for a brew or two. Going from pils, to nut brown, to stout, to lager makes it difficult to track other variables.


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## organicbrewer (18/7/05)

Are you using tap water or filtered/bottled water? I ask this because my first couple of brews had an astringent aftertaste that got worse as the beer got older. It turned out to be the chlorine in my drinking water. Now that i filter my water no more taste.


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## Beer Krout (18/7/05)

Thanks sosman 
Ok guys. I'm going to try a few things with sanitation. ie buy some gloves, replace the rings and taps,. I will try using bottled water and brew the same beer for a few brews to see if anything changes.

Organicbrewer
I've been using tap water. Melbourne water is supposed to pretty good. I guess it could be my pipes. I will try bottled water and see how that goes.

Will report any successes or failures at a later date.


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## BRAD T (19/7/05)

Steve said:


> Brad
> What was the brew and what yeast did you use?
> Cheers
> Steve
> [post="67130"][/post]​




Hi Steve,
It was just a Kit brew of 1 can Coopers Lager 500g Pale Malt extract & 500g Coopers Brew Enhancer 1 with 34/70 Yeast.

Cheers
Brad T


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## Steve (19/7/05)

Brad
I did an ESB Bavarian Lager last year using the same yeast...turned out the same. Band Aid - Medicical taste. I had to dump it as they started gooshing. This was also from Col. He reckoned it was the yeast not stored at correct temps at the suppliers?. I dunno. He fixed me up with a replacementt - being the nice bloke he is. Its very disappointing. P.S. Hows the fridge conversion coming along? Saw your post on the keg-set up thread.
Cheers
Steve


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## Ziggy-san (23/7/05)

BK - 

In addition to the thoughts on chlorine and infections, it could HSA -- hot side aeration. Conventionally, HSA off flavors are describeds as 'wet cardboard' flavors -- I thought it smelled like wet sawdust and sulfur and tasted like athlete's foot covered in lamicil. 

It could also be oxidation...

I seriously doubt yeast autolysis is the culprit -- I've stored beer on primary trub for six weeks with no issues.

BTW, is there any good reason for using valves in your buckets? I found them to be more of a hassle what with the need for extra sanitation, and racking canes and tubes work just as well. 

Check your tubing as well.


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## Darren (23/7/05)

Could easily be oxidation. Was the beer exposed to air for extended periods of time?


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## Beer Krout (25/7/05)

Can't really blame it on Oxidation.
The tasters didn't detect an oxidation flavour in their testing.

The last batch I did was an ESB Fresh Wort kit. Pour in to the fermenter and top up with cold water. No heating at all.

Still has a sour aftertaste?!?


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## sosman (25/7/05)

Beer Krout said:


> Can't really blame it on Oxidation.
> The tasters didn't detect an oxidation flavour in their testing.
> 
> The last batch I did was an ESB Fresh Wort kit. Pour in to the fermenter and top up with cold water. No heating at all.
> [post="68432"][/post]​


Isn't that the one you made up to 23 litres? IIRC that was the main problem.


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## organo (26/7/05)

Beer Krout.. 

if it's any consolation, I reckon I have exactly the same problem... 

after laying down my brews, it seems to take a month, more for the early ones, and less recently to develop a sour aftertaste to my brews.. 

a recent stout is quite undrinkable now, and it seems to have taken about fortnight for a very smooth drink to become a sour/bitter medicinal mess.. java script:emoticon(':blink:')
smilieam holding on to see how it develops, but am not optimistic... 

am reading the thread with great interest, and as soon as I have bottled my present brew (Cooper's Sparkling Ale) - which is already showing signs of sourness.. am going to clean my gear as much as possible... 

only problem is that I either have to drink (very difficult) - or throw out (painful) - some beer to make way for the next lot

Commiserations.. 

Organo


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## Darren (26/7/05)

BK,
Oxidation can go through several phases. Severe oxidation can result in sourness that masks any slight oxidation faults (cardboard).
Also exposure to oxygen allows bacteria such as acetobacter to thrive, resulting in sourness.
How much "headspace" do you have in your fermenter? How well is your fermenter sealed whilst conditioning?


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## Beer Krout (26/7/05)

Hi Guys

I'm not sure about the oxidation. I'm usually very careful after primary fermentation starts to avoid it. I have two plastic 30L fermenters and I rack from one to the other with a 2m by 8mm of clear PVC plastic tube spiraled on the bottom of the second fermenter. 

My brew volumes are now between 15-18L

I have just purchased a 20L Glass Carboy style fermenter for a secondary. If oxidation is happening during that stage. This should fix it. Haven't used it yet.

My bulk priming method has been to gently pour the sugar solution on the side of the fermenter and gently stir with a spoon, hopefully avoiding oxidation.

Bottling is done in the normal, little bottler way!

Organo. Commiserations also.
Just chucked out a heap of six month old beer, that was undrinkable. 

I'm taking a lot of new careful steps to rid myself of this problem, whether its lactic sourness, oxygenation or chlorination. I'm unsure, but I will attempt to fight it on all fronts.
Have begun the yeast starter for a new batch of APA. Will keep you guys informed on how things turn out.

BK.


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## pint of lager (27/7/05)

BK, you are using 30 litre fermnters and racking from one to another with a batch size of 18 litres. Are you racking for bulk priming, or for secondary? Bulk priming is ok, but if you are seondarying in a fermenter with large headspace, that would certainly be the cause of oxidation.


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## Weizguy (27/7/05)

For my 2 cents worth... <_< 

I have had a couple of ESB fresh wort kits that became sour.
Certainly don't want to blame it on them. Not out of hand, anyway.

I could taste mine as a vinegar flavour, and blame it on acetobacter. At the time, we had a few Drosophila (vinegar flies) in the house.

I cleaned my equipment (more vigourously than usual) and have brewed since that time without the same result.

In my case, I need to ensure that there are no beasties in the house and house ventilation/ air turbulence is minimised while brewing.

Looking forward to my California Common and Dunkelweizen soon.

Seth :lol:


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## johnno (27/7/05)

pint of lager said:


> BK, you are using 30 litre fermnters and racking from one to another with a batch size of 18 litres. Are you racking for bulk priming, or for secondary? Bulk priming is ok, but if you are seondarying in a fermenter with large headspace, that would certainly be the cause of oxidation.
> [post="68744"][/post]​



POL,
I have made quite a few 10-20 litre batches and used a 30 litre fermentor for secondary. Cant say I have ever tasted anything off in my beers.

johnno


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## Beer Krout (13/10/05)

Hi Guys

Just updating you and the archives with how things turned out.

I've now decided what ever was off flavours I was getting was during bottling. 

Because the brews that were in the fermentation stage, when I made the big changes to my sanitisation procedures, have turned out fine.

I now use gloves for bottling and most wort handing procedures. The outside of the gloves are rinsed in the Brewcraft Brewshield Sanitiser. 

You know when you have to jam the little bottler into the fermenter tap just prior to bottling. I used to do this with bare hands. This may haven been the source of my problems.

Anyway. Everything is good now and the beer is fantastic.

Cheers
Beer Krout


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## kungy (13/10/05)

Hi, just joining the party late. As an aside, i have beers that started a little sour come good over time. In particular two beers i made with Nottinghams had some definite flaws after a month, now there coming good. Just in time for summer.

Cheers

Will


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## shmick (14/10/05)

Beer Krout said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> Just updating you and the archives with how things turned out.
> 
> ...



After fitting my bottling cane I spray it with this stuff from Tricky Dick's

http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefro...duct/View/N0049

It's cheap, evaporates pretty quick and works a treat.
Dries out your skin though - gloves are best.


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