# Temperature Controllers



## Wortgames (31/3/05)

Hi all,

It seems that there are a lot of brewers who are itching for some good temperature controllers, myself included. They seem to be ridiculously expensive, over-specified, and there isn't much of a range available. I'm wondering about the possibility of pooling our resources, finding a good solution, and buying a small batch to keep costs down.

So could those that have found ones they are happy with state their source and model, pros and cons?

Does anyone have access to Asian manufacturers?

I guess the ideal spec would be: digital, probe, 2-stage, 240v powered, built-in relays, 0-20C minimum range.

Anyone interested? Any other suggestions or recommendations?!


----------



## barls (31/3/05)

im interested in one if the price is right


----------



## NRB (31/3/05)

Ditto


----------



## Wortgames (1/4/05)

I'm thinking that we'd want to keep the price under AU$100 - everyone agree?


----------



## jayse (1/4/05)

Hi wortgames,
For under $100 dollars you can get a simple single temp controller from lots of places including all the best craftbrewing retailers. I should do a quick search and post some links of stuff already done here but alas pint near run empty. I know MAH posted a great looking thing that even peter from wagga could build.
I don't think there much of a call unless your want to make something even better than that simple unit for under $100. ie a unit with a digital interface but really that all just bells and whistle.

Anyway that all sounds all so negative. So i'll get past the idea of this just being for the brewer who just wants a fridge controller and more to the point you were getting to. I think theres many craft brewer that would look at jumping at the chance if you could get a much better unit that you could trust to measure and controll temps during the brewing. Such a unit would be great.
Anyway i have some fire hazards in the family that talk more shit that goes over my head than not which built mine i'll see what i can scratch up for you. 

I am all up for the idea. I have a PLC which is about to do everything but for the last nearly four years i have been using this one that one of the fire hazards built for me.

Jayse


----------



## ausdb (1/4/05)

Just a heads up from someone in the refrigeration trade, Heatcraft (Kirbys or Lovelocks) have some Dixell controlls out for sub $100 at the moment which are a bit flasher than the small units that were previously advertised

Cheers Ausdb


----------



## normell (1/4/05)

Over the weekend my fermenting fridge got a Tobins TS-040S thermostat.
The old thermostat housing was thrown away, and new thermo fitted into a normal mounting block and blank face plate, onto which the thermo was mounted.
On the side a small switch was put, for the light globe to be over rode if needed.
The TS-040S switch can control both the fridge motor from position 1 and heating light from position 2.
This has to be the best alteration that I have done to my brewing setup by far, can now lager or ale my beers at the rotation of the dial.

All this for the cost of about $50.00

Normell

http://www.tobins.com.au/


----------



## BJCP Education Director (1/4/05)

Here is a site I found on a quick google search:
http://www.ferret.com.au/search.asp?qu=tem...re%20controller

They are also called PID controllers.


----------



## dicko (1/4/05)

Ausdb,
Do you have a part no. for those units?
Cheers


----------



## shmick (1/4/05)

I was heading down this path http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30523/article.html
but nobody seems to stock the kit any more.

Interested in the sub $100 Dixell if we can get some info/specs.


----------



## manaen (1/4/05)

I have to agree with using the Tobins thermostat. I just replaced my standard fridge thermostat with a Tobins one (It's only 2 wires) and straight away I can brew anywhere from 0-40 deg C.

The only addition I bought was a digital thermometer from Jaycar so I can set it where I want. Only $20 and has been very handy:

http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?...eMax=&SUBCATID=

Never had a problem with the temp being off.


----------



## ausdb (1/4/05)

dicko said:


> Ausdb,
> Do you have a part no. for those units?
> Cheers
> [post="52012"][/post]​



I'll try and scan the ad today at work
Cheers


----------



## Wortgames (1/4/05)

Ausdb - I had a bad experience with a couple of quite expensive Dixell units being grossly inaccurate (up to 11 degrees off). I'd be interested to check out the model you are talking about, but I shudder to think what their cheapo units are like ;-)

Shmick - any idea what that kit cost to build?

I have contacted some of the eBay suppliers - does anyone have any recommendations or warnings regarding temp controllers on eBay?


----------



## dreamboat (1/4/05)

I use a dixell for everything - mash, HLT, fridge.... it is able to switch 20A so no need for an external relay. I posted a while back to try to hunt up some interest while the price was down a bit. A couple of blokes from my brew club bought one, but that was the sum of the interest. You can probably track down the original post by searching for "dixell". No bother to me as I now have three digital temp controllers, but I like the dixell.


dreamboat


----------



## shmick (1/4/05)

At a guess Wortgames,
$60-70 for the kit (can't tell exactly what's in it)
Be up for a plug pack and 240V rated relay for load switching - add $25

Would rather get an off the shelf jobby for the same price and save myself an hour with the soldering iron.

A work colleague reckons you could knock up an electronic controller (without a display) for $40. He'll drag out a few circuit diagrams for me on the w/e to look at. It would be similar in function to the Tobins unit but external and more accurate.


----------



## somnar (1/4/05)

View attachment 2186


If you have a box with a thermostat.. do you really need a thermometer ?

anyways.. here's a jaycar thermostat for $40...


----------



## shmick (1/4/05)

Thanks somnar
I'd originally dismissed that one because it only goes down to 5C.
But on reflection - if I run it in parallel with the original thermostat (only one on at a time though) it would work for my fermenter/freezer.
I usually lager & CC in a seperate fridge these days so should work out ok.
Might pick up one of Manean's digital therm's while I'm there.

Cheers


----------



## Wobbo (2/4/05)

Heres a pick of my controller below I built recently. Its an LAE MTR12 digital does -50 to +150C, heat/cool, came with a 2mt probe, just had to buy a relay and a box some cable and wire it up. Unit was $90, relay was $16, box was $7 and cable $0 all up cost about $120. If anyone is interested I can post better pics/details.




Cheers
Wobbo


----------



## warrenlw63 (2/4/05)

Very elegant unit Wobbo :super: 

Please do post details, suppliers etc. Sure there'd be lots of interest.

Warren -


----------



## Wobbo (2/4/05)

Ok, Got the unit and relay from a company called RES (Refrigeration Equipment Sales) in Silverwater in Sydney ph (02) 9648 0300. They also have a branch in Brisbane dont know where else though. Got the case from Middendorp electrical in Fyshwick and just used some old cable I had lying around in the shed. I will take some clearer photos tomorrow and post for everyone.

I use the controller on heat mode to control my electric HLT when mashing and sparging and then switch it to cool mode when fermenting in my fridge. 

Wobbo


----------



## Wortgames (3/4/05)

Hi Everyone, just an update on the temp controls.

I am firmly looking at 2-stage controllers, the weather in Melbourne gets cold enough to require heating at times and if I go away for a couple of days I'd like to know that my brew is being held at a constant temp. Some of you folks may never need to heat a brew.

That said, there are two promising options at this stage.

The first is an eBay supplier who may be able to supply 10 units of 2-stage digital controller for around US$50 each, plus probes etc. I am waiting on confirmation of specs but they look like a good device. They are twice the height of the little dixells etc and have either one or two lines of LED display (eg to display target and actual) - depending on what he can get his hands on. They will require installation in a box and wiring up.

The second option is a Ranco device from the US which is preassembled with a LCD display:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productde...1685906&ccitem=

It will run from 240V and can operate in Celsius, but I am waiting on relay specs. we would just need to add input and output mains leads.

There is a US company called Controls Depot http://www.controlsdepot.com that offers this model at US$86.27, and we may be able to negotiate a bulk deal depending on how many people are interested.

For those who are happy with single stage, Ranco make this one:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productde...1768432&ccitem=

which Controls Depot has listed at US$47.17 each.

There is some helpful blurb on the Ranco controllers here:

http://www.automatedaquariums.com/ranco.htm

Let me know your thoughts and a quick head count of how many folks are interested, and I'll see what I can get going.


----------



## normell (3/4/05)

Wortgames said:


> Hi Everyone, just an update on the temp controls.
> 
> I am firmly looking at 2-stage controllers, the weather in Melbourne gets cold enough to require heating at times and if I go away for a couple of days I'd like to know that my brew is being held at a constant temp. Some of you folks may never need to heat a brew.
> 
> ...




So what's wrong with the Tobins TS-040S.
It both heats and cools.
I have mine set up with a 40 watt globe.
It is set to 8*C, for lagering, if temp gets above 10*C switches compressor on untill temp goes down to 6*C, then turns the lamp on.

Simple to do, and cheap.
Normell


----------



## fergi (3/4/05)

normell that looks pretty cool ,where and how much,are they easy to fit
cheers
fergi


----------



## Wortgames (3/4/05)

Normell - for me, I'd prefer a digital display and also a self-contained, portable unit that I can put on any fridge and set depending on my requirements.

It also sounds like your system is always powering something - either the light or the compressor. This seems like a quick way to burn out a fridge and increase your energy bills?!

But maybe you could quote your price and source, I'm sure there are others who would be interested.


----------



## fergi (3/4/05)

sorry i found the link ,thanks normell
fergi


----------



## normell (3/4/05)

It also sounds like your system is always powering something - either the light or the compressor. This seems like a quick way to burn out a fridge and increase your energy bills?!
No the time between compressor off/on (with light on, being only 40watt, and under terra cotta pot plant ) is betwwen 45Min and one hour, not much different to normal fridge cycle.
In the first pic, see there is a switch on the side, that can be used to turn the light off completly, but why bother.
Cost was about $45 for the thermostat, delivered, and about $18 for the rest of stuff needed.

http://www.tobins.com.au/
http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ItemHTML/TS-040S.htm
Normell


----------



## Wortgames (3/4/05)

Just FYI, a proper 2-stage controller has 2 separate relays - one operates the heating circuit and one operates the cooling circuit. The controller only operates the circuits as necessary to maintain your target temp. You can usually set the width of the 'dead band', which is the permissible variation from target before the appropriate circuit is triggered. The narrower this is, the greater the effect of hysteresis, ie fast alternation between output states.

Most single-stage controllers (thermostats) CAN be configured to heat or cool simply by using the other output of the relay, but shouldn't be set up to do both simultaneously, as this will mean the thermostat is constantly alternating between heating and cooling. However, you could set it up for chilling in summer and heating in winter, for example.

Hope this helps?!


----------



## Wortgames (3/4/05)

But the light is on whenever the fridge is not running?


----------



## normell (3/4/05)

Wortgames said:


> But the light is on whenever the fridge is not running?
> [post="52417"][/post]​



Can't see how this is a problem, BUT if you turn the switch to the off position the light don't go

 :blink:  

Normell


----------



## fergi (3/4/05)

i guess what you are saying normell that you only have the light on when you want ale temps and when you want lager temps you turn the switch off
fergi


----------



## normell (3/4/05)

Yeah Fergi
Something like that

Normell


----------



## redbeard (3/4/05)

i have a Tobins TS-040S on the ferment fridge. cooling only. i figure the wort will be generating some heat, hence dont need a lamp. i have a seperate (cheap) digital thermometer, but even with this im expecting a few degrees error from wort / air temp / tobins calibration / thermo display. 

i think my next ferment fridge will have a nice computer controlled setup, ala Greg's temp-controlled fridge 

back to original bulk buy topic, if someone finds a reasonable wide range controller, suitable for hlt & fridge, with digital readout, id be in for one.


----------



## keng11 (3/4/05)

I too could be interseted at the right price, I have been looking too & came across this site http://www.eurotherm.com.au/control/main.htm


----------



## Ross (3/4/05)

I have a friend in the heating control industry that put 2 control boxes together for me. The units have 3 temperature probes that can be independently viewed via the digital screen. Each of these powers via relays, heating & cooling power sockets. The dead band can be set from 0 to whatever in 0.1 increments. I have fitted a S/S tube (sealed at one end) through the lids of my fermenters & cubes which the probes slide down into. I have set to 0.5c +/- & since the probe is contolled by the actual brew, this prevents the fridge or freezer from cycling too fast & maintains an extremely accurate brew temp. In winter the Heating socket will power my heatbelt at the same time.



The second contoller is being set up on my mashing tower to monitor/control the brew day. I will post pics once it's up & running.


----------



## 4077M*A*S*H (3/4/05)

Nice work Rob, Im using a Grow warm external thermostat that the fridge is pluged into, then I run the probe into fridge (drilled a hole). I have a brewers thermometer to see the temperature and a heat belt to raise it. 
Very technical stuff here, but its usually pretty warm in Brisvegas 


Forever Yours,


----------



## BrotherNutz (4/4/05)

I thought maybe you guys might like to check out another way of doing this.

http://zymo.homemail.com.au/picaxe.htm

I will continue to update the page as I think of things or you guys make suggestions for page content.

Cheers

Pete


----------



## Wortgames (4/4/05)

Nice ferm cabinet! Did you build it from scratch or convert something?


----------



## BrotherNutz (5/4/05)

It was a kitchen cupboard once....I then lagged it with styrofoam and built all the refrigeration, control and heating gear around it.

Works like a dream. Great to have a lager in one side at 10C and a wheat in the other side at 22C.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (5/4/05)

somnar said:


> View attachment 2186
> 
> 
> If you have a box with a thermostat.. do you really need a thermometer ?
> ...



I got one of these, but took it back. I don't think it was appropriate because of the range and I didn't want electrical equipment, hooked up to 240V, around the moisture of a fridge. I've forgotten the name of the company... refrigeration specialists. They had a second hand one, but my brother stole it. Was about $70, digital, program hysterisis, delay, etc.

I'm now looking at one from www.esbeer.com.au the GroWarm or something... $120 + shipping. Perhaps the buildable one is better.


----------



## shmick (5/4/05)

DB,
You didn't happen to pop the Jaycar unit open to see what sort of sensor it was using?
If it is the type of sensor I think it is, I was going to rip it off the pcb and attach it to some extension wires - can keep the unit outside the freezer then.
I wouldn't be happy with mains volts inside a damp box either.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (5/4/05)

shmick said:


> DB,
> You didn't happen to pop the Jaycar unit open to see what sort of sensor it was using?
> If it is the type of sensor I think it is, I was going to rip it off the pcb and attach it to some extension wires - can keep the unit outside the freezer then.
> I wouldn't be happy with mains volts inside a damp box either.
> [post="52866"][/post]​



Yes, that's possible. What I'd be worried about is the capitance of ~1m worth of wire... it would effect the temperature reading a dramatically, trust me. That's why I didn't do it. 
Other than that, just had typical C, NO, NC connections with the earth straight through.


----------



## sosman (5/4/05)

Far be it from me to try to stifle any form of innovation (or fun), just a reminder that a $40, all mechanical unit stuck inside the fridge with the sensing bulb stuck to the side of the fermenter controls my fermentation *really* well.

No batteries, no external wiring, no fitting into a case, relay included - don't overlook the option.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (5/4/05)

Mmmm, I could stick a thermometer in there I guess.
But, I would prefer to have as many shiny things as possible, preferably buttons and noises as well.


----------



## Wortgames (5/4/05)

In the absence of a machine that goes 'ping', I insist on an LED display and buttons at the very least.


----------



## barls (5/4/05)

im with wortgames the more flashy things the more fun i have, that probably why im an electronics tech.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (5/4/05)

Wortgames said:


> In the absence of a machine that goes 'ping', I insist on an LED display and buttons at the very least.
> [post="52910"][/post]​



Monty Python was it?


----------



## barls (5/4/05)

yes the meaning of life if im not mistaken


----------



## Wobbo (5/4/05)

Just bought this one off ebay the other week. Its a 2 stage Eliwell ewpc907t. Was from the US but is 240/110v switchable  Only cost $60  



Wobbo


----------



## Gizzbrewer (22/4/05)

Hi all,

I too have made my own design using a PIC controller, Real time clock, LCD, Dallas 18S20 temp sensors, Fridge and heater. I can set the temp I require for the ferment, the software determines wether it has to be heated or cooled (with a delay so it doesn't switch back and forth). I have one of the temp probes on the outside of the fermenter (insulated from the ambient). The LCD shows me the set temp, the wort temp and the ambient temp of the fridge, as well as the time and date and the elapsed time of the current brew cycle.
If anybody wants the techo info (Circuits, code etc) let me know and I will send it to you.

Cheers


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (22/4/05)

I would like the info please, looks great.


----------



## vlbaby (22/4/05)

Damn! That controller almost looks like a carbon copy of the one I made, except I didn't think of putting a timer into mine.

Good Work Gizzbrewer!

vlbaby.


----------



## dreamboat (22/4/05)

A couple of very nice setups there.
One day i will look at trying to ferment by measuring both the wort and ambient temps... has to be the best way to get the right ferm temps.
Any info that can be posted about how to build this type of thing would be most appreciated.


dreamboat


----------



## Goat (22/4/05)

great setup gizbrewer. (PM sent)

what is the thing you are using (other than the ockey strap) to set the sensor against the fermenter?


----------



## Gizzbrewer (23/4/05)

Goat said:


> great setup gizbrewer. (PM sent)
> 
> what is the thing you are using (other than the ockey strap) to set the sensor against the fermenter?
> [post="55809"][/post]​





vlbaby your setup is very impressive, the timer is abit of wank factor not really required. The bits you don't see on mine are the powerpoints and power supply. I think I might have to start on the next version that is a bit neater on the back.

Goat, the thing under the strap is the temp sensor for the brew, it is insulated from the ambient air to give a more acurate reading. I tried a probe in the brew but it proved to be too much of a hassle.

anyway here is the pcb, circuit and code. 

Cheers 

View attachment vx4_nest.pdf


View attachment vx4_nest_brd1.pdf


View attachment vx4_nest_brd.pdf


View attachment VX4_MKII_ver3.txt


----------



## vlbaby (23/4/05)

gizz,
you could do what i did. I bought some stainless tube, blind on one end, and insert the dallas temp chip into the tube and seal it with araldite. Then grab a few fittings from HIS hose to plumb it into the side of your fermenter.
I bought the tube from Industrial Thermocouple Supplies in Thomastown VIC.
Only catch to using 6mm tube is that the sensor was too big to fit, meaning i had to bore it out on a lathe. If i was doing it again i would buy 8mm instead or maybe an imperial size because compression fitting are mostly available in inches.

vlbaby.


----------



## Gizzbrewer (23/4/05)

vlbaby,
I like the stainless probe idea, in fact I have just brazed one into my kettle, I too had hassels fitting the dallas probe into the tube so I filed the corners off the probe, seems to work ok. I think you have inspired me to start on my next version. This time I will include more probes, now I've started mashing. One for the HLT, Mash Tun, and Kettle. 

As you can see by the pics I'm not real handy with the Oxy kit.

What's with the Jug element? 

Cheers


----------



## Ross (23/4/05)

I use a s/s tube like vlbaby for my sensors, but I simply made a hole in my various lids (mash tun, HLT, fermenter) & suspend the tubes through them - This allows easy change of depth of your sensors (where required) & doesn't require water tight seals for your probes... Also, I don't like probes sticking through the edge of my mash tun when I'm trying to give it a good stir...


----------

