# Fake Aussie Lager Recipe Suggestions



## husky (26/11/10)

Looking to put down an Aussie lager style brew this weekend and would appreciate recipe advice.
Im after something fairly light that can be enjoyed by "the others" on a summers day.

I was thinking along the lines of:

100% JW ale malt to around 1.050
POR @ 60 to 30IBU
US05 at 17 degrees

Not sure how the 100% ale bill will go. I also have wey pils, light munich and vienna to add if need be.
Would a dry lager yeast be the go? I have only ever used ale yeasties so far, however I do have a fermenting fridge so can ferment at lager temps.
A small amount of something for a touch more complexity or colour on the cards?
Any need for some dex to dry it out a fraction(would prefer not)

Any comments or suggestions appreciated.

cheers


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## argon (26/11/10)

For a premium lager better than any aussie mega i'd be doing;

Pils 80%
Vienna 15%
Munich 5%
POR to 25-30IBU @60
S189 at 13 (can be done with good results up to 19)

mash at 62-63

ferment out and lager for minimum of 2 weeks. The vienna and munich will just add that extra touch of complexity to step up from simple to "premium"


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## seemax (26/11/10)

Use a bit dextrose to lower the FG, you want it to be fairly dry, say 250g.

US05 kept low will do a good job (I've been as low as 14C).


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## mje1980 (26/11/10)

husky said:


> Looking to put down an Aussie lager style brew this weekend and would appreciate recipe advice.
> Im after something fairly light that can be enjoyed by "the others" on a summers day.
> 
> I was thinking along the lines of:
> ...



If you can keep it at 17, i reckon S189 is a goer. That is a very forgiving and very easy to use lager yeast. Or try wyeast 1007, yum. Though theres nothing wrong with using the 05. 

Cheers


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## argon (26/11/10)

seemax said:


> Use a bit dextrose to lower the FG, you want it to be fairly dry, say 250g.
> 
> US05 kept low will do a good job (I've been as low as 14C).




Can you explain how you consider that adding dextrose will lower the FG? or are you saying use dextrose within a recipe to achieve a low fg?


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## MarkBastard (26/11/10)

If you want something really light and dry that your mates will drink try this one, I tested it on my swill mates and they even got up and started drinking it the next morning for breakfast...

This is a bribie g special...

3.5kg Pilsner Pale Malt (Barrett Burston)
0.3kg Carapils Malt (Weyermann)
0.6kg Dextrose
15g Super Pride @ 60 minutes (23 IBU)
5g Super Pride @ 5 minutes (1.5 IBU) (I no chill so this could be considered a 20 minute addition if you chill).
S-189 Yeast (I did it at 12 degrees but apparently works at ale temps)

I did a 21 litre batch, it started at 1.048 and finished at 1.007 making it 5.3% alcohol which is more than I expected. Maybe do the same recipe but with less Dex to get it at 5%.

It was a very very surprisingly drinkable beer. I'm going to make one again. I made this for my mates but realised that I wouldn't mind having something like this on tap as a house beer and I intend to do that now.

Oh and I did about 10 days primary, then diacetyl rest for a couple of days, then cold conditioned for about 2 weeks on the yeast cake. No secondary. Polyclar + Filter. An hour after kegging it was like coloured water, completely see through, and already tasting pretty good.


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## argon (26/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> 3.5kg Pilsner Pale Malt (Barrett Burston)
> 0.3kg Carapils Malt (Weyermann)
> 0.6kg Dextrose
> 15g Super Pride @ 60 minutes (23 IBU)
> ...




That sounds good mate... might adopt this for a summer quaffer but i'll swap hops out for Bsaaz


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## earle (26/11/10)

> Use a bit dextrose to lower the FG, you want it to be fairly dry, say 250g.





argon said:


> Can you explain how you consider that adding dextrose will lower the FG? or are you saying use dextrose within a recipe to achieve a low fg?



The phrase 'add some dex to dry it out' seems to get bandied about quite a bit and had me thinking for some time. I'm sure people who say it really mean "Replace some malt with some dex". While their intention is good the communication of it can be misleading.


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## MarkBastard (26/11/10)

Yeah it's a definite lawn mower beer. The pale pilsner + dex do their best to pretend the beer has no malt in it but then the carapils adds in just enough for it to not be completely horrible.

Next time I'm going to put 500gm dex in but do everything else the same.


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## haysie (26/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Oh and I did about 10 days primary, then diacetyl rest for a couple of days, then cold conditioned for about 2 weeks on the yeast cake. No secondary. Polyclar + Filter. An hour after kegging it was like coloured water, completely see through, and already tasting pretty good.



Do you think c/c on primary yeast was worthwhile, polyclar? filter?, thats a lot of work.Must be some really shitty wort going to the fermenter?
No pun Mark, trying to get my head around 1v 2v systems. Personally i hate all these finings which i think??? and only think, BIAB really needs them. i.e The most active comments re finings are generally coming from the biab crowd. 
I plan to give this a go via Bribies method on the urn tutorial. >>>>>>>>>> I have 4/3/2 v, so a mash at 3lgr, then add boiling for a mashout. Yes this goes against the whole thing in a bag, but I am not convinced about the turbid stuff that comes out of a bag/mesh/yada. No chill is giving inconsistent results to clarity on my beers, so perhaps I am doing something completelly wrong........ Tell me. 

Tiptoeing thru the tulips and ressurecting the old way via a plate chiller.

Cheers Folk


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## argon (26/11/10)

earle said:


> The phrase 'add some dex to dry it out' seems to get bandied about quite a bit and had me thinking for some time. I'm sure people who say it really mean "Replace some malt with some dex". While their intention is good the communication of it can be misleading.




yeah thanks mate... knew this already... being a touch pedantic. Common myth that.


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## earle (26/11/10)

argon said:


> yeah thanks mate... knew this already... being a touch pedantic. Common myth that.



Figured since you asked the question that you knew the answer.  Thought I'd pop an answer in for anyone who wasn't in the know, as you say it is a common myth but it still gets repeated.


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## Batz (26/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you want something really light and dry that your mates will drink try this one, I tested it on my swill mates and they even got up and started drinking it the next morning for breakfast...
> 
> This is a bribie g special...
> 
> ...




That sounds better to me, munich or vienna will make it too malty for an Aussie lager.

Batz


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## manticle (26/11/10)

argon said:


> Can you explain how you consider that adding dextrose will lower the FG? or are you saying use dextrose within a recipe to achieve a low fg?



Pretty much figured seemax was talking about part of the fermentables coming from dex rather than adding magic drying dex.

However just to touch on this - brewing is about balance and perception. A 50 IBU beer that is sweet is perceived differently from a beer that is 50 IBU dry. Is it not the case that a beer may be given a different perception with the addition of dex? Not that the body will lessen or the FG will magically get lower but that the balance between sweet and dry will be different (hence the term 'dry it out')? A simple addition of dex on top of the malt will up the alc so the balance of fermentable that the malt has contributed to the total will be less - hence perception changes.

Hope that's clear and it's more of a question than a statement. Happy to be wrong.


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## ekul (26/11/10)

I made what i hope will be an aussie (fake) lager partial yesterday so that:

a) i can use up a can of coopers "real ale" that i've had lying around since i discovered all grain
b ) my rellos can drink something that they will enjoy at chrissy

I did...

*1.2kg* can of real ale (note its not 1.7kg, i saved 500g for starters)
2kg ale malt
.5kg rice

mash temp 68

hops

Cluster @ 40mins (i meant to do this @20 mins but i forgot to account for nochill adding an extra 20mins to everything. ) 

the can of real ale should add around 20ibus of isohop goodness  Exactly what i'm looking for.

total bitterness 30 ibus (I'm making another one in the next few days, it will be bittered to 25)
Alc should be 3.8% (plus .5% if you're bottling)

The wort tasted really thin but didn't taste like kit at all, so hopefully tha twang has been hidden. I have another can of coopers "mexican cervesa" that i will be using up in much the same way in the next few days.

The real ale can was really dark, way too dark for what i am aiming for. I think the cervesa can will work alot better in this department.

I'll be fermenting with US05 really low and cold crashing for at least 5 days. I can keep it at 1C pretty much constantly. This will make it very clear. I did a stone and wood clone recently that uses about 50% wheat and it came out of the fermenter pretty clear because i forgot about it when i was crash chilling. Stone and wood is a cloudy beer, so it was basically the opposite of what i wanted!


So if you got some goop lying around from your kit days and you have rellos coming up, its time to break out the can openers and feed those isohops to the people who really _enjoy_ them.


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## Nick JD (26/11/10)

Making an Aussie Lager with real hops will unfortunately make it slightly nicer than the stuff in the pub and as such, not to style. 

Overgravity ferment it way too hot with a lager yeast and then bung some flavourless isohop in and water it down to 4.8%. Bang on. 

My best Aussie Lager recipe is this one:

18L
3kg BB Pale
200g Sucrose
100g Caramunich 3
20g Southern Cross for 15min
S189 @ 12C

...sactually not an Aussie Lager, but that's a good thing.  B)


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## bignath (26/11/10)

manticle said:


> However just to touch on this - brewing is about balance and perception. A 50 IBU beer that is sweet is perceived differently from a beer that is 50 IBU dry. Is it not the case that a beer may be given a different perception with the addition of dex? Not that the body will lessen or the FG will magically get lower but that the balance between sweet and dry will be different (hence the term 'dry it out')? A simple addition of dex on top of the malt will up the alc so the balance of fermentable that the malt has contributed to the total will be less - hence perception changes.




Yep, i reckon.


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## Nick JD (26/11/10)

Also, ethanol has a SG of 0.890, so if you increase your alcohol % by 2% with added dextrose (leaving everything else the same) you will lower your FG. 

Those who have added 3kg of dextrose to a can off goop in 23L will have experienced the 1.000 wispy firewater that results. Is it lower in body than the same recipe with only 1kg of dextrose? You bet, but I'm using the extreme to emphasise the point.

I find that little bit of extra alcohol can drastically alter the head retention, body, taste and aroma of a beer. A beer with exactly the same recipe, just a touch of dex.


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## edddy57 (26/11/10)

I use just use JW pilsner malt, carapils and a kilo of boiled rice (rice instead of the dex....... just cant bring myself to use the stuff in all grain). I adjust fermentables to try and bring it in around 4.8%. Hops are just POR for 60mins and hallertau into the cube. I also do some hallertau tea into fermenter when its 75% done (for aroma). Have used both S 189 and Wyeast . Both pretty good. Also gelatin, polyclar and filter. Turns out great and very clear .... no chill haze. Heres a pic I took for another thread. Any haziness is just the condensation on the outside of the glass


eddy


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## edddy57 (26/11/10)

Sorry meant to say Wyeast 2042


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## thesunsettree (26/11/10)

quote - "polyclar? filter?, thats a lot of work."

you must be ******* kidding, right. anyone who says that polyclar and filtering is "_a lot of work_", must be a fatter and lazier tnuc than I am (or obviously has never done it). and let me tell you, i am a fat lazy tnuc and it is the easiest part of my whole brewing process (3v ag), if it were as hard as you making out it wouldnt be part of my process.

matt

edit - i'm not for 1 minute suggesting everyone should/must polyclar and filter. each to their own and depending on style/preference. but to suggest doing so is "a lot of work" is an absolute crock....


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## beerdrinkingbob (26/11/10)

Is a clear beer better??


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## thesunsettree (26/11/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Is a clear beer better??




didn't say it was it was. just said it wasn't "a lot of work"

matt


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## beerdrinkingbob (26/11/10)

thesunsettree said:


> didn't say it was it was. just said it wasn't "a lot of work"
> 
> matt



Matt wasn't picking one, more so asking if it doesn't why do we bother?

Perfection is a curse, just ask my wife!


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## thesunsettree (26/11/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Matt was picking one, more so asking if it doesn't why do we bother?
> 
> Perfection is a curse, just ask my wife!




no probs mate,

the easy answer is; for some people it does (make a better beer). and for others it doesnt (make a better beer). really its mostly about style and preference, i prefer to filter the beers(styles) i make. only my 2c tho  

cheers
matt


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## Shaneygrog (26/11/10)

Do they brew lagers here in Australia?


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## Shaneygrog (26/11/10)

I mean would you really call a VB West end, XXXX or Tooheys or anything similar a lager?


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## Batz (26/11/10)

Shaneygrog said:


> I mean would you really call a VB West end, XXXX or Tooheys or anything similar a lager?




Absolutely, why would you call them Ales?

Batz


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## MarkBastard (26/11/10)

I'm not saying you have to polyclar and filter but the op obviously wants something that will appeal to megaswill mates ans they usually see chill haze and yeast characteristics as being negative home brew flavones. both problems can be overcome with time anyway. Nothing to do with biab imo


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## felten (27/11/10)

Shaneygrog said:


> I mean would you really call a VB West end, XXXX or Tooheys or anything similar a lager?


How many of the beers here and here are lagers? I would guess most of them are.


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## Shaneygrog (27/11/10)

Batz said:


> Absolutely, why would you call them Ales?
> 
> Batz


No but the German word for lager means to store and, well these things are brewery fresh as they say with Carlton Draught now on telly so they are not made like a lager is supposed to be made, only they have used a bottom fermenting yeast but that's about all. I guess you could call a VB a lager but then you would have to call a pastry filled with raw meat a pie. That's just my opinion. Isn't that part of why we brew? So we can make better beers than the big guys? We can actually store our lagers at low temp so the yeast can finish the job not just kill the yeast halfway through and get them in the fridge. Thank god Coopers decided to stick with ales when all others turned to lager yeast all those years ago.


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## Batz (27/11/10)

Shaneygrog said:


> No but the German word for lager means to store and, well these things are brewery fresh as they say with Carlton Draught now on telly so they are not made like a lager is supposed to be made, only they have used a bottom fermenting yeast but that's about all. I guess you could call a VB a lager but then you would have to call a pastry filled with raw meat a pie. That's just my opinion. Isn't that part of why we brew? So we can make better beers than the big guys? We can actually store our lagers at low temp so the yeast can finish the job not just kill the yeast halfway through and get them in the fridge. Thank god Coopers decided to stick with ales when all others turned to lager yeast all those years ago.




Well if you are going to state that any commercial beer that has not been stored (lagered), as they were historically is not a true lager, then I doubt you will find many commercial lagers in the world.






Batz


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## Bribie G (27/11/10)

AFAIK nearly all Australian Lagers are fermented using lager yeast but start off in the low teens degrees and are allowed to drift up almost to ale temperatures and then given a whopping ten days of lagering before filtering and getting sent off to the packing lines. However a few German breweries do this - I've given the beer book back to Tidal Pete but there's a reference to one of the biggest breweries in Germany (I don't think it's Oettinger, but it's a mega one there) ferment at 13 degrees and lager for that 10 days and the mobs can't get enough of it. 

So back on topic for a more authentic Aussie style I do the 10 10 10 procedure - ten days at around 15 degrees with a yeast like S-189, ten days lagering fridge temp with Polyclar towards the end, ten days in the keg (which is lagering as well) - However Ross and others report good results with S-189 and S-23 at 19 degrees, going to try that next and cut a few days off.

Wandering off topic again, I'm old enough to remember the Queensland Beer Strike - it was actually the packing lines on strike and they kept brewing till the holding tanks were full. Then they had to let them sit and lager for months. When the XXXX came back on tap (and there was only the one beer in those days, none of this Gold or Blond shyte) it was like mothers milk for the first few weeks :kooi:


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## manticle (27/11/10)

husky said:


> Looking to put down an Aussie lager style brew this weekend and would appreciate recipe advice.
> Im after something fairly light that can be enjoyed by "the others" on a summers day.
> 
> I was thinking along the lines of:
> ...



Hi mate,

this is the recipe for the malty version I did over winter. Just because it uses PoR doesn't mean it needs to be bland

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1260

As discussed today, I also brewed one with some sugar and rice to lighten it up and get closer to the aussie lager we all know. Would use a different yeast next time due to some apple creeping in (supposedly a characteristic of the yeast itself according to some sources)

*Aussie-ish lager 2*

*Type:* All grain
*Size:* 22 liters
*Color: *3 HCU (~3 SRM) 
*Bitterness: *36 IBU
*OG:* 1.051
*FG:* 1.010
*Alcohol:* 5.2% v/v (4.1% w/w)
*Grain:* 4kgJW Pilsner
500g Wheat malt
*Mash:* 70% efficiency, 64 degrees C
*Boil: *75 minutes SG 1.035 32 liters
*Adjuncts*:100g Cane sugar
500g Rice (raw weight) cooked and mashed
*Hops:* 30g Pride of Ringwood (10% AA, 60 min.)
*Yeast *WY 2007 (American Pilsner) 
*
Notes: *
*Mash*: 2g CaSO4 2g CaCl2

*Boil*: 1g CaSO4
1g CaSO4

 [email protected]

From memory I step mashed the first one, single infusion for the second.


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## Batz (27/11/10)

Yeast is a whole new story hey manticle? I really enjoy brewing Aussie lagers now and then, in fact it's my next brew and this time I'm using Danish lager 2042. Tidalpete brewed a cracker Aussie using this yeast once and if I remember he used Spalt hops, I'm yet to try another like it.
If you read about 2042 it's recommended for Dortmund-style lagers and they sound to be what we are looking for.

I've been playing around with Aussie lagers and ales for years and I'm still changing my recipe every brew, it's not an easy beer to brew.

Thesunsettree, sorry for drifting off topic but I think you have some useful info in between our ramblings, good luck with it.

Batz


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## manticle (27/11/10)

WY Danish was a consideration when working out the two recipes.

I'd definitely use the 2000 yeast again but might have a crack at the Danish next lager season. Let us know how it works.

For this one husky a dried lager yeast, a german ale yeast or even US 05 as low as it will function. Play with different liquids at the next point in the process.


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## earle (28/11/10)

manticle said:


> Pretty much figured seemax was talking about part of the fermentables coming from dex rather than adding magic drying dex.
> 
> However just to touch on this - brewing is about balance and perception. A 50 IBU beer that is sweet is perceived differently from a beer that is 50 IBU dry. Is it not the case that a beer may be given a different perception with the addition of dex? Not that the body will lessen or the FG will magically get lower but that the balance between sweet and dry will be different (hence the term 'dry it out')? A simple addition of dex on top of the malt will up the alc so the balance of fermentable that the malt has contributed to the total will be less - hence perception changes.
> 
> Hope that's clear and it's more of a question than a statement. Happy to be wrong.



Agree with you on balance and perception, but doesn't a lot of the sweetness in a finished brew come from non-fermentable sugars which we control through choice of malt, yeast (and temp of mash). Thats why we say a low attenutating yeast such as windsor gives a sweet finish and a high attenuator such as nottingham gives a dry finish. Alternatively its why beer from malt can have a sweet finish whereas cider from apples which is fully fermentable has a dry finish.

Following this thinking part of the perception of sweetness/dryness is unfermentable sugars which we measure by FG so I can't see how adding dex on top of malt can reduce this, whereas I can see how reducing the malt and adding some dex can.

As per Manticle this is more of a question. Hoping through discussion I/we can further our understanding of this.


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## under (28/11/10)

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Aussie Lager
Brewer: Dazza
Asst Brewer:
Style: Premium American Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 19.00 L
Boil Size: 22.88 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 6.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 20.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.75 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.Grain 73.03 %
0.61 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 16.23 %
0.31 kg Polenta (3.9 EBC) Grain 8.11 %
0.10 kg Carapils / Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 2.63 %
10.50 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 12.7 IBU
10.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (20 min) Hops 7.3 IBU


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 3.77 kg

This is what mje and I did a couple of weeks back. Using fresh POR flowers. Its currently sitting on S189. Hopefully it turns out great.


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## Bribie G (28/11/10)

Batz said:


> Yeast is a whole new story hey manticle? I really enjoy brewing Aussie lagers now and then, in fact it's my next brew and this time I'm using Danish lager 2042. Tidalpete brewed a cracker Aussie using this yeast once and if I remember he used Spalt hops, I'm yet to try another like it.
> If you read about 2042 it's recommended for Dortmund-style lagers and they sound to be what we are looking for.
> 
> I've been playing around with Aussie lagers and ales for years and I'm still changing my recipe every brew, it's not an easy beer to brew.
> ...



Pete gave me a bottle of that last year, and I think it was Spalt as well, it tasted like Crown Lager _Should_ taste and I reckon it was largely in the yeast, I've finally got a pack of Danish sitting in the fridge and will be doing a series of Aussies for the hot weather ahead. Pete's recipe didn't have any sugaz in it however and it was far meatier than say a Carlton Draught or XXXX. But one of the best HBs that has ever flowed past my tonsils.
Edit: I reckon he should put it up in the recipe DB or at least put up the Beersmith page for us.


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## manticle (28/11/10)

earle said:


> Agree with you on balance and perception, but doesn't a lot of the sweetness in a finished brew come from non-fermentable sugars which we control through choice of malt, yeast (and temp of mash). Thats why we say a low attenutating yeast such as windsor gives a sweet finish and a high attenuator such as nottingham gives a dry finish. Alternatively its why beer from malt can have a sweet finish whereas cider from apples which is fully fermentable has a dry finish.
> 
> Following this thinking part of the perception of sweetness/dryness is unfermentable sugars which we measure by FG so I can't see how adding dex on top of malt can reduce this, whereas I can see how reducing the malt and adding some dex can.
> 
> As per Manticle this is more of a question. Hoping through discussion I/we can further our understanding of this.



I don't think just adding a kg of dex on top will reduce the FG - just that the BU/GU ratio will change, the alc level will obviously change and the perceived bitterness and dryness will change. Even if the FG stays at x, the degree or percentage of attenuation will be higher if we assume that all that dex is femented. That's if added, not replaced. Think of high grav belgian style beers for example.

If not added but used as a replacement/partial replacement then the FG will be lower.

Any advice I would give to add a touch of sugar would involve choosing an OG in the recipe development and using a portion of sugar to hit that figure, not choosing that figure, then bumping it up with the sugar.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Bribie G (28/11/10)

I've over ordered a shedload of BB ale to make malt liquors but decided to put da mofo liquaz on hold for a while and do some toucan headbangers instead. 

I expect BB ale would be fine for making a basic Aussie Lager? Or blended half and half with BB Pilsener?


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## TidalPete (28/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I've over ordered a shedload of BB ale to make malt liquors but decided to put da mofo liquaz on hold for a while and do some toucan headbangers instead.
> 
> I expect BB ale would be fine for making a basic Aussie Lager? Or blended half and half with BB Pilsener?



Always used Galaxy Bribie but now it is no more (and until the much vaunted replacement arrives next year) perhaps BB pale would be your best bet amongst the Barrett Burston malts?

TP


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## Bribie G (28/11/10)

Yes, I currently have 8kg of pale and 15kg of ale, I'll try half and half - the srm of the ale isn't too bad for making a pale beer.


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## husky (28/11/10)

Went into G&G yesterday and they do not stock s-189 so picked up 34/70 instead. Where are people getting 189? apparently its only available in bulk amounts.


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## manticle (28/11/10)

You can order from Craftbrewer: http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/product-search.asp


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## Nick JD (28/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I expect BB ale would be fine for making a basic Aussie Lager? Or blended half and half with BB Pilsener?



I find Aussie Lagers are better made with BB Ale than BB Pale - the Pale comes out too sweet.


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