# Air-up



## sluggerdog (11/11/04)

Anyone hear of the following:

Air-Up Homebrew

My Local HBS has just brought it in, while I wan enquiring about keg systems he told me about it.
$281 UPFRONT for the gas bottle and then you own it for life, pay an extra $20 every time you need to re-fill and that is it.

Sounds ok to me.

Was going to rent howver I have air liquide a call on prices and they said it would cost me about $110 UPFRONT, then ADD an extra $40 for the bottle. SO about $150 per year to rent the bottle with gas.

Paid that off in 2 years with Air-Up..

Now I just got to find the $700 for the whole setup with gas bottle.

Cheers


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## big d (11/11/04)

sounds good sluggerdog.
hopefully with companys like this it might wake up the major companies into giving us better deals.i hate having to pay rent on gas bottles that i dont own.


cheers
big d


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## MAH (11/11/04)

It's absolutely fantastic that a supplier has come to the party and will now sell CO2 bottles AND has arranged for an extensive list of refillers across Australia.

BUT $276 is a bit steep, considering that guys out there are getting 2nd 5kg fire extinguishers for 1/2 the price, and they do exactly the same job.

A bit of competition in the market is needed to drive the price own. 

As an example of how competition brings down prices, in the US you can buy the same sied bottle for US$60 or about AUS$85. Those lucky yanks!

Cheers
MAH


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## kman (11/11/04)

id like to own my own bottle just for taking camping or parties and such.

On that note, i wonder if GMK has any of those cooler coils left, if so, i hope he pm's me 

cheers


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## sluggerdog (11/11/04)

I like the size of the bottle, pretty small and light weight.

I'm gonna get onto it as soon as I can. 

$280 might be a bit but it's still a brand new bottle, designed specifically for homebrew


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## big d (11/11/04)

and it will more than likely outlast you as well.good investment for future drinking pleasures i reckon  


cheers
big d


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## JasonY (11/11/04)

Great stuff I noticed that Chubb near me in WA are a refiller, sent em an email to see if they would be interested in the fire-extinguisher option  if not I guess I will have to consider forking out for the cylinder.


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## sluggerdog (12/11/04)

Just saw Goliath Brewing have a 1.5 kg C)2 Gas bottle they sell for $120.

http://www.brewgoliath.com.au/catalog/prod...products_id=144

This would be just as good... correct? A little smaller however it fits within my budget.

Cheers


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## johnno (12/11/04)

This is a great idea.
But if they really want a lot of business they should really consider dropping the price.

cheers


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## SteveSA (12/11/04)

$276 Ouch!! Can get a 5kg extinguisher + Goliath 1.5kg + change for that.

Still - it's good to see the market growing.


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## MAH (12/11/04)

My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that there are no manufacturers of CO2 cylinders in Australia (fire extinguishers might be the exception to the rule). This raises the question of where do we get them from?

My guess is that CO2 bottles are a bit like regulators. As far as I can tell all the regulator bodies use a 1/4" thread. In Australia we then screw in the adapator for our CO2 head. Is this the same with CO2 bottles? Do the bodies all have the same sized thread, and then in Australia we screw in our own head? If so can you buy a CO2 cylinder from the US, and then seperately buy the Australian head?

From my research I think the US cylinders have 1.125 - 12 UNF thread. So you would need a head with this thread on one end that has a 7/8UNF thread on the other end for our regulators. 

If you could do this I'm sure some of these new filling station would be willing to fill them. Why not they're filling private bottles through Air-Up?

Just some thoughts
MAH


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## Doc (17/2/05)

Just had a call from a mate who tried to get his converted fire extingusher filled at Air-Ups reseller Mannell Motors in Thornleigh Sydney.
They wouldn't do it. They will only fill their bottles.
Anyone else had this problem with Air-Up ?
Anyone know of a reliable refiller that will do converted fire extingushers in Sydney ?

Doc


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## SteveSA (17/2/05)

Doc said:


> Anyone know of a reliable refiller that will do converted fire extingushers in Sydney ?
> [post="45541"][/post]​



Hi Doc,

There's a thread on Grumpy's that talks about Quell doing refills. The bloke who posted it says he's from Sydney northern beaches. I don't know Sydney at all so I'm not sure how much help this is to you.

http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=35891

The relevant info was posted on 17/2/05

Regards
Steve


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## blotto (17/2/05)

I thought gas bottles had a life span before you had to get them tested?? Something like 5 years. Then not sure how much that would cost to get it checked.


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## grunter (17/2/05)

quell northern or betta fire
brookvale
have contacted them and they seem cool with the whole thing


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## Doc (17/2/05)

Thanks SteveSA and Grunter.
Have passed on the info to my mate.
Pity Air-up aren't as flexible :angry: 

Beers,
Doc



SteveSA said:


> Doc said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know of a reliable refiller that will do converted fire extingushers in Sydney ?
> ...


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## Witchdoctor (21/2/05)

There are good reasons that Air-Up is not flexible with there fills. Brewers that are using fire extinguishers are risking contamination of their brew & all those that drink it. The reason is that the CO2 is not food grade. Air-Up fill stations are set up to fill the CO2 cylinders with the correct valve.
When purchasing a 1.5Kg (2nd hand) CO2 cylinder be informed that these are imported from the US they are not made to Australian standards & they are not covered by work cover. Also no repeatable company will risk filling these cylinders.
Air-Up cylinders are brand new & come full & have to be tested every 10 years. At the moment that will cost you about $45.00.
Privately owned cylinders are another problem for Air-Up refillers. There are brewers out there that have purchased old cylinders (acetylene) from the tip then paint them to match the CO2 colour. Would you like to be the person that is filling this cylinder when it explodes at 1000+ psi.
Regarding importing from the US. By the time you convert the US$ to AU$ and courier them in, as they can not be sent in mail as they are a dangerous good, no one will fill them as they are the wrong colour and have the wrong valve so your regulator will not fit. Companies like Air-Up are trying to supply quality goods to an industry that has been ignored by the big gas companies.
Air-Up is an Australian owned family business that consider safety a high Priority. The Fire services that will fill Air-Up cylinders are not food grade and are for the 4x4 industry utilizing the complete Air-Up System.


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## Ross (21/2/05)

i thought the airup cylinders were approx $280? Witchdoctor, you're saying $45?? If only $45 a much better proposition...

edit...

Early morning sleep in my eyes - retesting $45...


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## normell (21/2/05)

Ross said:


> i thought the airup cylinders were approx $280? Witchdoctor, you're saying $45?? If only $45 a much better proposition...
> 
> edit...
> 
> ...


Not bad prices tho, pity only 1 refiller for whole of Vic.
Hmmmmmmmmm
Might have to look into that.
   
Normell


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## Doc (21/2/05)

Witchdoctor said:


> There are good reasons that Air-Up is not flexible with there fills. Brewers that are using fire extinguishers are risking contamination of their brew & all those that drink it. The reason is that the CO2 is not food grade.



Interesting Witchdoctor.
There have been many discussions about this in the past on all Australian brewing groups, and the end result of all discussions was that the CO2 for both fire extingusher and food grade refils all came from the same cylinder at refil stations.

Would love to hear your reply.

Beers,
Doc


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## jgriffin (21/2/05)

I'e also looked at the Air-Up bottles, and the numbers just don't add up.

On current usage, i'm using 1.5 bottles per year from air Liquid for a 9KG bottle. That's approx $60 per year in gas plus $100 in rental.

After purchasing a 1.5kg bottle from AIr Liquid, it would mean that i would require 9 refills in the same time at $20 each. So that's $180 per year in refills.

So, Air liquide bottle - $160 per year
Air Up - $180 per yead + $280 purchase........


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## Ross (21/2/05)

I came close to those figures also.... but using a slightly smaller bottle...


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## MAH (21/2/05)

Witchdoctor said:


> Brewers that are using fire extinguishers are risking contamination of their brew & all those that drink it. The reason is that the CO2 is not food grade.



Bollocks! Do a quick search of BOC's Material Safety Data Sheets, number 104 and 032. One is for "Food Grade CO2", the other is "CO2 Bulk". Both report that the CO2 is a minimum of 99.5%.



Witchdoctor said:


> When purchasing a 1.5Kg (2nd hand) CO2 cylinder be informed that these are imported from the US they are not made to Australian standards



I better ring up my mate in the US and tell him not to use his CO2 bottle because it's not up to Australian Safety standards and could be potentially dangerous. My fire extinguisher was made in China, but has an AS stamp on it. I'm pretty sure that the 1.5kg bottles, even if they were made OS will have an AS stamp. 

I've no problem with people coming on to this phorum and promoting their product, but promotion is different to what Whitchdoctor has written. Promotion is about telling the public what your product has to offer, not slagging off your competitors with unsubstantiated rumours and insinuating that they are not reputable. Yeah Air-Up has given us an alternative choice and we're all grateful, but don't try and tell us that its either you or the big companies.

Cheers
MAH


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## Backlane Brewery (21/2/05)

Witchdoctor, if you DO work for Air Up, or have some other connection to them (which is how your post came across to me, and MAH at least it would seem) you should make it clear in your next post, when you answer the queries/clarify the issues you have raised.


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## normell (21/2/05)

Does seem a bit strange
Posts: 1
Joined: 14-November 04
Member No.: 679
Long time member, but ONLY one post
:blink: :huh: :blink: 
Normell


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## Bobby (21/2/05)

the food grade thing doesnt really wash with me. most of us live in the city and spend most of our time breathing polluted city air, which would almost certainly not be classed as food grade if you bottled it.
but horses for courses. if it doesnt sit right with you pay the extra money.....


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## JasonY (21/2/05)

I think a lot of the whole food grade spec is around the handling of the gas and what it comes into contact with. For legal reasons a seller of something that is 'food grade' has to be able to prove they are not using say a transfer line that is also used to top up accetylene also etc.

The guy at BOC mentioned something like this when getting a cylinder but I wasnt paying much attention. Something about knowing what the cylinders have been used for.

All this said if I could find a fire-extinguisher option in Perth I would go for it, I am sure the guys filling these are not also topping up cyanide cylinders 

Economics for air up didn't do much for me either, I think the cylinder needs to be about 5kg before it would be worth the effort.


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## Witchdoctor (21/2/05)

Yes i do work for Air-Up. 
I merely posted my comments as advice. I did not state the comments to promote the product.
BOC, Air Liquide and Supagas have stopped selling and filling private cylinders. This information comes from head office from all 3 companies. They want everyone to lease at around $110.00 per year + gas.
On the food grade & industrial grade CO2. BOC and Air Liquide have supplied in writing that the 2 grades of CO2 come from 2 separate manufacturing processes. Food grade is more refined. 
If you are happy with adapted equipment from another industries that is your choice. I was merely letting other brewers know there are safer options out there.
If my previous posting has offended anyone i apologize. 
If you purchase a 2.3 kg cylinder ($276.00 + freight) you never have to pay dead rent again. $20.00 for a fill which will give you 18 x 19 liter kegs gas and push.
Not all brewers want to take the risk of using a fire extinguisher knowing they are dealing with a high pressure vesicle and consuming it.


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## Ross (21/2/05)

Well I have it direct from BOC that there is ABSOLUTLY NO DIFFERENCE between their beer gas CO2 & regular grade. Filled both from the same tank... & Air Liquide will let you have a steel gas bottle down south for a fraction of the cost of an aluminium one...
So why not give us guys a real alternative & price your bottles @ a more reasonable level???


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## Linz (21/2/05)

... Information in, is that extinguisher cyclinders(these will be included) ARE to be tested as per BOC and Air liquide standard of every 5 years come April/May so that ALL pressure gas cylinders will be of the same standard to stop this kind of confusion(testing every 10 years, yeah right, the BBQ bottle maybe).

$45 purchase price???( I feel you are driving at pressure testing will cost $45) the guy in Campbelltown NSW wanted $285 initial purchase. Also you changed tune from post one to post two $45 to $276(and Can we assume + GST??)

Ive only seen ONE instance where a brewer was using the INCORRECT bottle for Co2 and was using a Dry Chemical extinguisher. These are tested to 2 MPa, so 1000+psi( Ive had to tell you MILLIONS of times to stop exaggerating!!!) explosions shouldnt happen(unless you wait 10 years to test the bottle!).

Using an Acetylene bottle from the tip??? you deserve what you get if you do this!!!

As for the 1.5 kg Co2 bottles, always have been wary of importing bottles and gauges from the US, the one from Goliaths(as seen on the webpage 21/2/05 10pm) appear to have a P/T date stamp so it must comply to standards or someone is in ALOT of trouble....and not necessarily(?) Goliaths

Both yours, and the other smaller bottles look similar to the bottle used in the motor sport industry for fixed suppresion systems in race cars. Whilst employed by a fire company we were informed NOT to fill these as they Could be mounted horizontally and the liquid Co2 could freeze in the nozzles if there was water in them from the track.

The difference in the gas you get from BOC et al, and a fire co is that BOC is pressurised gas and fire co gas is LIQUID co2 that boils off to a gas as the bottle is used, hence the need for them to be kept UPRIGHT once the dip tube has been removed.



> "The Fire services that will fill Air-Up cylinders are not food grade and are for the 4x4 industry utilizing the complete Air-Up System."
> 
> 
> > So SOME fire co will fill them ..but for 4x4 use only??
> ...


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## Wobbo (21/2/05)

I checked with a Air up supplier in Wollongong (Albion Park) on the weekend and he quoted me $295 for the initial purchase. It seems the price of $276 quoted by Air-Up is only for an empty cylinder! You then need to pay $20 for the gas. The guy said he would give me $1 discount and make it an even $295. Seems like false advertising to suggest initial cost id $276 then sting you for $20 before you walk out the door....
Wobbo


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## ausdb (22/2/05)

Hi Linz 
I agree with everything you said except this bit, 



Linz said:


> The difference in the gas you get from BOC et al, and a fire co is that BOC is pressurised gas and fire co gas is LIQUID co2 that boils off to a gas as the bottle is used, hence the need for them to be kept UPRIGHT once the dip tube has been removed.



Even the cylinders from BOC have liquid CO in them. You can prove this by looking at the cylinder pressure gauge of your regulator, it will stay constant around 8-900 PSI (at mid 20 temp) for almost the whole time until it is completely empty. Thats because there is liquid CO in the bottle which is slowly boiling away to a gas as it is released.

O and N cylinders are filled with compressed gas only as liquifying them at ambient temps requires insane amounts of pressure! 

And I'm still looking for a fire extinguisher, Air up does not seem all that cost effective to me.

HTH
Ausdb


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## Linz (22/2/05)

I stand corrected on point B)


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## Thunderlips (22/2/05)

> Even the cylinders from BOC have liquid CO in them. You can prove this by looking at the cylinder pressure gauge of your regulator, it will stay constant around 8-900 PSI (at mid 20 temp) for almost the whole time until it is completely empty. Thats because there is liquid CO in the bottle which is slowly boiling away to a gas as it is released.



I'm on my first gas bottle and didn't realise this. It's sitting on around the numbers you mention, 8-900 PSI.
So I could be in the middle of carbonating a keg and all of a sudden it will run out of CO2? I was hoping that gauge would give me some kind of warning.


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## normell (22/2/05)

Linz said:


> ... Information in, is that extinguisher cyclinders(these will be included) ARE to be tested as per BOC and Air liquide standard of every 5 years come April/May so that ALL pressure gas cylinders will be of the same standard to stop this kind of confusion(testing every 10 years, yeah right, the BBQ bottle maybe).
> 
> $45 purchase price???( I feel you are driving at pressure testing will cost $45) the guy in Campbelltown NSW wanted $285 initial purchase. Also you changed tune from post one to post two $45 to $276(and Can we assume + GST??)
> 
> ...





Linz said:


> > > > > > > > Hi Linz
> > > > > > > > Before you get shot down in flames, re read the testimony from a Homebrewer states him: As seen on webpage on 21/2/05 at 10.30pm.
> > > > > > > > By Anthony Little.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ...


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## MAH (22/2/05)

Witchdoctor said:


> On the food grade & industrial grade CO2. BOC and Air Liquide have supplied in writing that the 2 grades of CO2 come from 2 separate manufacturing processes.



Then prove it! PDF the written documentation that you have and post it to this site for all to see. Then as home brewers we can either accept the documentation you've provided or take a copy to BOC and Air Liquide and have it verified.

Cheers
MAH


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## Ross (22/2/05)

Hear... hear...

This week I'm switching from beergas to regular CO2 as I wish to upgrade from a 6kg bottle to a 10kg one & BOC don't supply the beergas in 10kg bottles....
BOC tell me there is absolutly NO difference - So if you have proof otherwise Witchdoctor, I would appreciate your prompt response - PLEASE....


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## redbeard (22/2/05)

> On current usage, i'm using 1.5 bottles per year from air Liquid for a 9KG bottle. That's approx $60 per year in gas plus $100 in rental.
> 
> After purchasing a 1.5kg bottle from AIr Liquid, it would mean that i would require 9 refills in the same time at $20 each. So that's $180 per year in refills.
> 
> ...


i just rang Air liquide in sydney & was quoted $110 rental (ali or steel) + $28 to fill.
air-up is a 2.3kg cylinder. thus for 13.5 kg of gas/yr thats 1.5x 9kg or 6x2.3kg

```
yr1                        yr2      yr3

Air liquide  $110+44=154      154     154

Air-up          $280+120=400   120      120
```
(sorry, used this code thing to stop the unformatiing...)
so u break even after 7 yrs with air-up for 13.5kg. using 5kg / yr, the payback for air-up is about 3 yrs.

if u dont like air-up's pricing, stick with boc/air liquide/supagas. but dont complain about pricing, if your not prepared to support new competitors to the market. 

rumour is some pub gas suppliers will give cheap rental on steel cylinders, thou have yet to find one in sydney buti havent asked every single one 

as to food grade / bulk, a workmate with physics lab experience suggests they come from same factory but the food grade is filtered more, to remove noxious elements like benzine, which are irrelevant with a fire extinguisher. only boc / air liquide could give definitive statement.

cheers


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## Darren (22/2/05)

Hey guys,
I suspect the reason they supply "food grade" gas is because it DOES comply to food grade regulations. Sure it may all come from the same tank most of the time. You can be sure that some CO2 will not meet the food grade requirements (such as the first 100 or so litres in a batch as impurities are purged). Food grade will also apply to all lines and connectors used for filling. Non-food grade bottles will not be allowed to be filled with food grade lines/tanks. There could be the possibility of "stuff" on the nozzles of non-food grade containers.
I hate using BOC but I figure my liver gets enough of a beating as it is without adding any other toxins


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## MAH (22/2/05)

I'm still not convinced that the "food grade" CO2 is any more refined, as I posted earlier BOC's own Material Safety Data Sheet reports that their food grade product has the same minimum purity level as the bulk product. 

I do however think Darren is probably right in that it has to do with handling procedures. The food grade CO2 is probably guaranteed to be handled with other food grade hoses, connectors, bottles etc. 

Does anyone know a fire extinguisher re-filler who could confirm if they use the same equipment to refill the CO2 extinguisher with other more harmfull chemicals?

Cheers
MAH


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## Darren (22/2/05)

On another point. I think that industrial grade is even more highly refined. It is used in welding applications where it is essential that there is NO oxygen, oil or combustible material


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## Ross (22/2/05)

With due respect Redbeard & Darren, BOC here in Brisbane tell me they fill from exactly the same tank & told me there's no difference between the 2 products. If this is not correct then I would like Witchdoctor of anyone else for that matter to provide literature or a contact within BOC to confirm to the contrary. The cost is not the major factor here - I want to use the 10kg keg that does not come with beergas... 
Suggestions from third parties are of no help here, they just confuse the matter more... Facts please... :mellow:


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## Darren (22/2/05)

Ross,
Is there a difference in price between the two products? Why would they hold two"different" lines if they were exactly the same thing?


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## MAH (22/2/05)

Darren said:


> Why would they hold two"different" lines if they were exactly the same thing?



Marketing!

Product differentation through marketing is common practice. When your competitor sells a similar or the exact same product as you, you simply market yours differently to make it appear to be a superior product. 

If their CO2 happens to meet food grade regulations, apply the tag and you have a whole new market to sell to. When fire extinguisher guys are looking for CO2 they don't search for food grade, but the beverage industry would. Just whack on a new label and you can much easier sell the same product to two different markets, as you have used the right trigger words to get their attention. 

Cheers
MAH


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## Ross (22/2/05)

Exactly the same price!!! 

The guy @ BOC said it was a legacy from the past & something to do with someone like Macdonalds not wanting to see Beergas on their softdrink dispensing bottles...
Only going on what he told me... That's why if someone's got proof to the contrary I want to know before I collect my new bottle...


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## Ross (22/2/05)

Spot on MAH....


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## Darren (22/2/05)

Ok. To throw another spanner in the ring (is that the saying?)
I just called BOC in Adelaide.
BOC sell three types of CO2. Beer gas, and food grade CO2. They are exactly the same thing and come from the same source. I was told that if industrial grade CO2 was used for any beverage dispensing their liability would be diminished if someone became sick. They said it was not as pure as food grade. It may contain contaminants not compliant to food grade applications.
So Ross, i would make sure you don't buy industrial grade gas.


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## Ross (22/2/05)

Cheers Darren,

I guess the guy in Brizzy was comparing food grade to beergas...  as he was fully aware of what I wanted it for...

But I'll make sure on collection...


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## MAH (22/2/05)

Hi Darren

I suspect that what the guy said about liability of using industrial CO2 has more to do with it not having the "official" designation of food grade than an actual difference in the products. I went back and looked at their MSDS again. 

They sell a lot more that 3 "forms" of CO2. Some of the more easily identifiable are 1) food grade liquid 2) compressed 3) liquid CO2 and 4) medical EP grade. 

The food grade liquid and liquid have the exact same minimum purity of 99.5%. This would suggest they have been refined to the same degree. And as the fire extinguisher guys would be buying the liquid CO2, it's probably the same product. So I reckon the food grade tag either comes from handling procedures or is purely a marketing label to help consumers identify a product that meets their needs.

Medical EP grade is 99.8%

The compressed CO2 has varying grades, but interestingly the purity is higher listed as:
CO2 - 99.8%
anaerobic grade - 99.95%
SFC and Coleman - 99.99%
261 - 99.99%
131 - 99.995%

Some other interesting information, is that Cellamix Vin Air used for dispensing wine is Argon. Cellamix 45, 55 and 75 is a CO2/Nitrogen mix, with the number representing the proportion of CO2. They have other products called Food Fresh 30 and 50 which is a CO2/Nitrogen, again the number representing the proportion of CO2.

All these different product lines with minimal difference indicates to me that a lot of this is mainly marketing differentation. As I said before, the guy you spoke to from BOC was probably refering to the technical legalities rather than any real product difference. 

I tend to believe the MSDS more than some office guy.

Cheers
MAH


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## Boots (22/2/05)

I found this PDF at AirLiquide's website that talks about liquid CO2 and references foodgrade, chemical usage, and welding on the same document with the same physical properties, with same >99.8% purity. You can check for yourselves at the following link, but the compressed gas document says the same / similar


This page then outlines what is in the different grades of CO2 that airliquide sell - but doesn't reference food grade / beverage grade (I'm not sure if this goes against the PDF or not)

http://www.airliquide.com.au/Pages/Special...bon_dioxide.htm




The link below lists possible contaminants of CO2, and what levels of contaminants the Beverage and Food grade specifications allow. This is a US based company so their food grade classification may differ from ours, but I'm sure it's indicative.

http://www.synetix.com/co2purification/impuritiesinco2.htm


Hopefully this data helps someone work out a conclusion (coz I'm using a fire extinguisher filled at a fire equipment place). I imagine common sense should prevail - the company who supplied my extinguisher knew what I was using it for, so I'm sure they wouldn't use poisonous gas lines on my beer CO2 extinguisher ??!!?? 

View attachment 03227_20UN2187_20Carbon_20Dioxide__20Liquid_1_.pdf


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## MAH (22/2/05)

Boots

It's intersting that the Air Liquide document says that the food industries consume most of the CO2. You would think then as the largest consumer, this would become the minimum standard.

And as you pointed out Air Liquide only have 2 types liquid and compressed, which refer to their state, and has nothing to do with the degree of refinement as both are 99.8%.

I still reckon that the large range of products we see are artifical constructs for market differentation.

Cheers
MAH


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## NRB (22/2/05)

I tend to agree with you MAH.


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## Boots (22/2/05)

.... nah I'm sorry .. I can't believe companies would bend the truth to make an extra couple of % out of "different" products that are actually the same....   

Don't take my opinion coz I'm not in the gas industry, but it would not be out of the realms of probability that they would be banking (literally) on the confusion, and lack of knowledge around a non-consumer product.

--------

Are all the ingredients in a cigarette manufactured on a food grade production line? Any smokers care to comment :blink:


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## jgriffin (22/2/05)

Boots - i've seen it in dozens (well not dozens) of industries. The same product with different names sold at different prices. It's cheaper often to manufacture to a single standard, and just change the price.

A company i used to work for imported monitors, and (legally) re-branded them to a different brand and charged a premium. One of my customers imports tools, and sells them under different brands at different prices.


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## MAH (23/2/05)

Boots said:


> Don't take my opinion coz I'm not in the gas industry, but it would not be out of the realms of probability that they would be banking (literally) on the confusion, and lack of knowledge around a non-consumer product.




I reckon your bang on the money Boots. The classic example is Health Insurance. Most insurers sell the same product, but they dress it up to look different. They make it difficult for you as a lone customer to understand the minute differences. You don't have the time to go through all the different brochures and finally settle on the best known "brand". It's refered to as information cost.

Cheers
MAH


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## Backlane Brewery (23/2/05)

And let's not get started on trying to choose a mobile phone plan...

Can I just say, as someone who doesn't keg, that this discussion has been hugely interesting, not least for the rigorous way people sought out and provided information from reliable sources. Another HB myth bites the dust.


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## deebee (23/2/05)

A bit off track I know but...

I thought there was no such thing as liquid CO2. It's either solid ("dry ice") or gaseous.


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## RobW (23/2/05)

Sublimation - change of a solid substance directly to a vapor without first passing through the liquid state. The term is also used to describe the reverse process of the gas changing directly to the solid again upon cooling. An example of sublimation is seen when iodine, on being heated, changes from a dark solid to a purplish vapor that condenses directly to a crystalline solid upon striking a cool surface. In this way pure crystals of iodine are prepared. Some other substances, e.g., mercuric chloride, can be prepared by sublimation. Solid carbon dioxide, commonly known as dry ice, sublimes at -78.5C (-109.3F). Sublimation also occurs when air saturated with water vapor is suddenly cooled below the freezing point of water. Frost and snowflakes are thus formed by water changing directly from the gaseous to the solid state.

Presumably there is a way to maintain CO2 in the liquid state.


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## MCWB (23/2/05)

deebee said:


> A bit off track I know but...
> 
> I thought there was no such thing as liquid CO2. It's either solid ("dry ice") or gaseous.
> [post="46579"][/post]​


At atmospheric pressure, yes, you're correct. It is possible to liquify CO2 under high pressure though.


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## troppo (23/2/05)

G`day guys
as a newbie and a lurker here i hope this is the right place for this post but it seems to fit the thread
all this talk about gas bottles and extinguishers made me think i have a 5 kg LPG bottle out the back for the BBQ, would this be suitable for CO2? would the air people fill it?
they cost a hell of a lot less than the bottles i`ve been reading about in here
just a thought


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## Doc (23/2/05)

Troppo,

In a word "No"
The refillers have issues doing extingusher bottles that have only ever had CO2 in them.
I wouldn't want to get CO2 in my beer from a bottle that has had propane in it either.

Doc


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## jgriffin (23/2/05)

No, No, and No.


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## normell (23/2/05)

How come the turkey that was sprucking Air-Up has gone soooooo quiet
...............
Normell


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## Linz (23/2/05)

Normell I saw that, but the heading that listed the interests didnt mention the homebrewing.





> 4x4 traveller, motorcyclist, diver, climber, teacher, drinker.
> Gold Coast, Australia.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bobby (23/2/05)

there are better options around. if your new to the game contact one of the senior members of this forum in you area and ask them for advice.

i think it was linz that put me on to someone that filled my bottle. cheers bloke.


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## troppo (23/2/05)

AND BEING A BUSH BASHER IS A BAD THING LINZ????????????????????????
each to their own mate, everyone has their own opinions but we dont need the negative ones thrown around, it makes for a bad feel
you have your life and and he has his as well, no point trying to make him do as you do
different strokes and all


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## Linz (24/2/05)

troppo said:


> AND BEING A BUSH BASHER IS A BAD THING LINZ????????????????????????
> each to their own mate, everyone has their own opinions but we dont need the negative ones thrown around, it makes for a bad feel
> you have your life and and he has his as well, no point trying to make him do as you do
> different strokes and all
> [post="46683"][/post]​




Troppo,


WHOA dude........didnt say it was. Just someone outside with NO real feel for the hobby or craft(which raises another point...why was there no craftbrewers at the needle and craft show at Rosehill race corse last weekend??) coming on and foisting their view on us and a sterotype alot here would understand.

focusing on the pointy end of the stick only ends up with a poke in the eye!..


As you so eloquently put it ..."no point trying to make him do as you do".... He came on here telling a number of us that what we were doing was wrong and detrimental to our health. Then to add the insult ..hit us up for $275 each.


So who was try to make who do what first then????



As I said before.....this thread is getting tired


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## Darren (24/2/05)

Howdy MAH,
I think it all comes down to a standard. If it is certified food grade any downstream user of that product knows it is food grade. Once someone buys and them passes on a product and does not supply food grade certification then ANYTHING can happen to that product.
Just because it was foodgrade from BOC doesn't mean it is still food grade from fire extinguisher company.
You will have no legal comeback if you or one of your friends/family get sick. 
After all you did buy gas from a fire-extinguisher company (because it was a little bit cheaper) knowing full well that food grade certified gas was available.
Another point is that there is a fire extinguisher company in Adelaide who make their own CO2 on premises. They will fill your bottle no worries. They do not have food grade certification.


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## Boots (24/2/05)

Darren,

Who is it that makes their own C02 on premise? I would be starting to get worried then, because that IS a bit different from BOC etc listing all their gasses the same.

It's one thing to hear that BOC fill beer CO2 cylinders from the same source using the same lines as they fill non food grade CO2 cylinders. IMO it is a different kettle of fish when CO2 is being produced on-premise by a fire company for their fire extinguishers.

As (i think) the link I posted above outlines (the one pointing off to the US site), there can be many contaminants in CO2 after the production process which need to be filtered out. I personnally would have a long hard think before i got mine filled from this site, and I'm kinda hoping that it's not the mob I already got it filled at.

--Edit--

I also meant to say that I personally am not tired about this thread as some are. I'm using an extinguisher under the belief that it is safe to use. Information doesn't come out into the open until people get motivated (read: irritated / concerned) enough to search for facts.

Which is what is driving this whole thread.


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## Darren (24/2/05)

Hi Michael,
I don't feel like being sued. If anyone is concerned just PM me with the name and I will tell you if it is them.
cheers
Darren


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## Darren (24/2/05)

Michael,
Nope it is not them. Their name is very similar though. Not suprising I guess seeing how they are all putting out fires.
BTW, I am not trying to cause trouble, just concerned that because someone posted somewhere that all CO2 was ok to be used in beer does not mean it is.

A funny story is a year or so ago I went to a brew get together where there were quite a few experienced brewers. One of the beers we tasted everyone thought it was great. Nice sparkling bite to it. I thought that something was not quite right. I asked if the brewer (well respected) had added phosphoric acid to it. He said yes. Turned out he had added about 100x more acid than he should have. The nice, sharp, tingly sensation was the acid eating the enamel off our teeth :blink: 
I hate to think what is happening to all those aluminium pots that people are using especially will poorly calculated acid additions.
My "gut" feeling is that if it isn't certified "food grade" it probably shouldn't be going into food.


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## Boots (24/2/05)

Thanks for that Darren,

The place i use, is the same place that most people with Extinguishers in Adelaide have sourced their equipment from to my knowledge.

The more info the better when it comes to health. I only want to damage my liver, not the rest of me  :blink: 

Cheers


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## Linz (24/2/05)

Boots said:


> Darren,
> 
> Who is it that makes their own C02 on premise? I would be starting to get worried then, because that IS a bit different from BOC etc listing all their gasses the same.
> 
> ...




A fire Co is "manufacturing" their own Co2?????


Thats a new one to me...All the fire places I know of all have theirs trucked in by BOC or A/L...

Linz....rubbing his eyes with a second wind


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## robbo5253 (2/5/06)

Any feedback for supagas, they seem the cheapest in adelaide and the guy I spoke to today seemed more than happy to help.

Cheers and happy brewing.

Robbo


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