# Protein rest?



## _Mick_ (18/9/13)

Hey guys, just wondering if I could get some plane language info on the importance of protein rests during a mash. I'm relatively new to all grain and only done single temp infusion mashes. 

Cheers
Mick.


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## pyrosx (18/9/13)

I'd read this section:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Theory_of_Mashing#Protein_converting_enzymes

Then probably read the rest of the site as well


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/9/13)

With modern malt you do not really need to worry about a protein rest. However if you are using non malted ingredients such as raw or flaked grains it could be beneficial. 

A protein rest can be done to break down proteins that may be present in wort. There are two temperature ranges that are most effective for breaking these proteins down and effect different types of proteins.

There are two different types of proteins that we brewers care about. The first type causes haze in the beer (chill haze) and the second helps with head retention/body.

The range 45-53C is the temperature that breaks down the haze creating proteins. A rest in this range is used to clear the beer.
The temperature range 56-58C breaks down the head retention/body proteins. A rest in this range is used to thin out a beer.

The use of these rests is dependent on your ingredients and what type of beer you want to make.

RB


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## QldKev (18/9/13)

You will see a lot of text book reasons why with modern malts you don't need too, and a lot of people who have never tried them telling you not to do it. 

All my beers get a 55c /. 5min step. Try it for yourself and see what it does for your beer.


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## _Mick_ (18/9/13)

Interesting stuff, my next brew will be a dry lager using just pils malt and rice so a good rest at the 45-53c range would be beneficial to clear up the end product?


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/9/13)

QldKev said:


> You will see a lot of text book reasons why with modern malts you don't need too, and a lot of people who have never tried them telling you not to do it.
> 
> All my beers get a 55c /. 5min step. Try it for yourself and see what it does for your beer.


I am very interested in this. What do you gain from doing this?

You are basically doing a short protein rest in the region that is supposed to thin the beer out.
Are you trying to thin it a bit or are you getting some other effect?


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/9/13)

_Mick_ said:


> Interesting stuff, my next brew will be a dry lager using just pils malt and rice so a good rest at the 45-53c range would be beneficial to clear up the end product?


Theoretically yes. I have never used rice before, so I am not sure how much haze it might cause but it definitely would not hurt.


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## manticle (18/9/13)

I do similarly to Kev. In conjunction with a 10 minute rest at 72, I notice a lovely, creamy looking head that laces and retains.


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## verysupple (18/9/13)

manticle said:


> I do similarly to Kev. In conjunction with a 10 minute rest at 72, I notice a lovely, creamy looking head that laces and retains.


Have you ever tried just the step at 72 without the low temp rest? I ask because I noticed mine have better head formation and retention just with the high step (usually 65 - 68 and then up to 71) and wonder if it could be even better with the low step as well.


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## manticle (18/9/13)

I have and it works well but I prefer the results with the two.

Never done side by side though so just relying on fairly inaccurate 'notions and memories"


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## QldKev (18/9/13)

I wasn't going to give it away that easy and make you test it for yourself, but manticle has said it 100%. As manticle also said combine it with a 72c step. Only difference I do either a 15min or 25min rest at 72c as I like my beer a bit fuller. (also most my beers are 3.5 to 4% abv)

If you wonder if it would be better with the low step aswell, try it, you have nothing to loose.


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## wbosher (18/9/13)

So you would do something like 10 mins at 55, 60 at 65 to 70ish, and then 10 at 72? Do you still do the mashout at 78? I do BIAB with gas so this may not be too easy to do, but still interesting


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## mje1980 (18/9/13)

I do the 72-15mins as its a bit of a pain to do 55,65,72, but I have done it and noticed good results. All my beers now get the 72 rest for 15 mins, even the super dry ones like Belgians.I have manticle to thank for putting me onto that. I find that just the 72 gives good lacing. It's also much easier to do, than the extra step if you're limited by equipment.

If I had the blinged up beer maker that could ramp temp up easily I'd do both.


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/9/13)

oops, I got my rests round the wrong way.

It should be

The range 45-53C is the temperature that breaks down the head retention/body proteins. A rest in this range is used to thin out a beer.
The temperature range 56-58C breaks down the haze creating proteins. A rest in this range is used to clear the beer.

This would make sense with what manticle and QldKev were saying.


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## syl (18/9/13)

55 - 15
65 - 45
72 - 15
75 - 10


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## Bribie G (18/9/13)

I've read (Palmer maybe) that protein rests actually chop some proteins into smaller chains that promote heading and lacings. It's not about whether you want to degrade proteins in general, more a case of _which _proteins you want in your finished beer.


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## Black n Tan (18/9/13)

what happens at 72C?


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## Bribie G (18/9/13)

Any remaining starches are converted by Alpha Amylase, in case they got missed at lower temperatures, generally to unfermentables such as dextrins that give body. Doesn't take Alpha Amylase long, mean bugger.


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## manticle (18/9/13)

72 is high end alpha but also glycoprotein rest. It has been suggested that glycoproteins contribute to head formation and retention.


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## mje1980 (13/12/13)

Bit of a bump but I now take the extra 10 minutes to add the 55-58c rest as well as the 72 for pretty much all my beers. Except uk ales, and pale ales, they get the 72 but not 55. Not really that much more effort. 2 pots on the stove instead of one.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/1/14)

This there a method for doing this on gas? Preferably a simple one, or its it beyond Biab on gas.


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## manticle (2/1/14)

Mash in cooler so your mash is at 52-55, keep it there for 5 minutes (long protein rests at lower temps can be detrimental with most modern malts), then gas it up till you hit your saccharification temperature.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/1/14)

Ok got it. I will need to take out the grain tho then boost the heat? I'm a touch worried about burning the bag on the bottom of the pot.


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## manticle (2/1/14)

Chuck a cake rack or something in the bottom to keep it off the pot base. Or mash in with less water and use boiling water to up the temp and volume. There are calculators around for working that out.

Otherwise yeah - just lift the bag.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/1/14)

Sorry about the noob question. Just don't want too mess it up


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/1/14)

Ok will do.


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## manticle (2/1/14)

Noob questions are fine.


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## Glot (2/1/14)

A very interesting and worthwhile post. I don't think I read one silly comment, even the questions.


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## Lecterfan (2/1/14)

No need to lift the bag or anything *as long as you stir constantly while raising the heat*. This is what I always do, is what Thirstyboy and (sorry I have forgotten the username) his counterpart always suggested and it works fine.

I am biab and step mash almost all of my beers by virtue of the fact that I will at the very least go from sacch rest temps to mashout (and this might mean from 64c to 78c which can be a solid 12 or so minutes of stirring the mash through the temp ranges in between).

Cake rack or whatever to lift the bag is probably heaps easier, but I like the hands-on approach anyway. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (2/1/14)

Spillsmostofit is probably the user you are thinking of.


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## brewtas (2/1/14)

I do the same as Lecterfan and have never had a problem with it.


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## Not For Horses (2/1/14)

I sometimes do step mash in my BIAB setup.
I lift the bag as it warms.
The opposite of nature.


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## Pokey (2/1/14)

I have issues with even heat distribution when heating up my BIAB mash, regular stirring and a gentle heat seem to help.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/1/14)

Ok guys thanks. This is what I've done. First step was a little hot. 58c I stirred the hell out of it and got it to 54c(plus pouring from a height,the shit you pick up in India).stayed at that for ten min. Now it's sitting at 72c. How long at this temp.I was thinking 15 min as that's is around the middle of what I have read.my gheto drag the bag to the side pic is included.


Sorry Edit ;single step infusion at 66c for 60 min between.


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## recharge (3/1/14)

I really like my bag on a rack as I can keep the bag open and stir the mash whilst raising temps.
I also shut off gas about 2 deg early as temp keeps climbing. This is using kettle + nasa burner.

Rich


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/1/14)

Yep ok mate. 2deg sounds about rite for me as well. Rambo burner. I will get a rack it's not a problem. I'm a Baker but needed to brew to day. I will fix my rack issue next brew.


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## dr K (3/1/14)

The OP (although not in his OP a few posts down) mentions his interest is in using Rice so this brings up a point that has certainly not been discussed in this thread.
Gelatinisation.
Before your enzymes do their work, whether they be alpha, beta or even omega your cereal needs to be gelatinised. With malted barley and wheat this happens conveniently in the mashing range, with rice however it is higher, in fact the dead land for alpha and particularly beta amalyse. With rice, and indeed corn/maize you need to do a cereal mash, outside the mash at 70C plus unless you use use pre-gelatiinised cereal, flaked rice in this case. All the protein or other rests in the world will do screw all for rice conversion without the higher than mash temp cereal rest.
Oh, that grain of malted barley you cracked before mashing is not entirely starch that requies gelatinisation (though most of it is) but other "things" which may or may not benefit your beer from lower temperature (pre-gelatinisation) steps, with highly modified barley not a lot ...with highly modified wheat somewhat more.

K


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## manticle (3/1/14)

I thought rice gel temps and alpha optimisation were roughly similar - 66-72 (ish for alpha) and 68-75 for rice? Nonetheless, gelatinising whatever adjunct you choose to add if not already done so is an important point.

Not used much rice so happy to be wrong - just going on reading.


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## dr K (3/1/14)

Beta-amylase of course plays a part in beer in as well. Sitting next to optimisation is denaturation, Neither happen instantly, but both happen with time, I leave to more learned colleagues to describe the effect of mash density (L:G) on gelatinisation but a thinner mash certainly reduces the denaturation time once the zone is reached.
Thick or thin, starting your mash at and holding for gelatinisation (which Manticle is NOT suggesting) at 68 plus is not a good idea.
We eat a lot of rice at KK, were I to feel I should make a beer with rice, I would simply cook extra and chuck it in !!!

K


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## manticle (3/1/14)

No definitely not suggesting that. As mentioned I've seldom brewed with rice but all the advice I've seen suggests pre-cooking or cereal mash.
My understanding of the process of starch breakdown is that there are 3 main processes - gelatinisation, liquefaction and saccharification. Without the first two, the third cannot occur. In malted barley, the malting process combined with mashing is sufficient (less modified malts may have required decoction, etc) but with unmalted adjuncts, they need more specific treatment.

Interestingly, contrary to what I wrote before, I have heard of rice sometimes requiring 80+ for gelatinisation which makes more sense in light of your first post.
De Clerck mentions a temp of around 85-90, held, then cooled to around 70-75 with tbe addition of some mashing barley malt (as in hydrated and at mash temp) so the alpha can saccharify the rice starch (cereal mash)


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## MartinOC (3/1/14)

I'm with Manticle on this & other un-malted sources of fermentable starch:

They need to be broken-down by gelatinization (hell! Boil the crap out of them to be sure!) before adding to the bulk of the mash.


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