# Square fermentor idea/experiment.



## mje1980 (13/6/14)

I brew a lot of uk ales. A lot of reading suggests that the shape of the fermentor has an effect on the flavour of the beer, as well as an open fermentation. I'm thinking of trying a cheap storage tub and doing an experiment. My only concern is the material, it's co polymer polypropylene. I plan on transferring to a secondary when the beer is nearly done ( normal fermentor ). I'm also hoping to get a shit load of good healthy yeast off the top, hopefully!. 

Thoughts?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (13/6/14)

Your container will do the job but visit your local U brewit and get a food grade liner bag, should be sweet.
Nev


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## Batz (13/6/14)

On a small scale like we brew 20-50lt do you really think that vessel will make any difference?

I'm not having a go here as I really don't know, interested in your findings though.

Batz


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## lael (13/6/14)

I like the idea! Do it!


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## Not For Horses (13/6/14)

I've been thinking about this a bit too lately. I had a stainless laundry sink in mind. Might be able to plumb in a couple valves for yeast dump and beer offtake.


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## mje1980 (14/6/14)

Batz said:


> On a small scale like we brew 20-50lt do you really think that vessel will make any difference?
> 
> I'm not having a go here as I really don't know, interested in your finding though.
> 
> Batz


I don't know really. Though the idea is that the extra surface are exposes the beer to more oxygen, which is less stressful to the yeast, and they in turn go nuts ( ever notice the pics of open fermentation, there's pavlova on top  ). It seems that the beer needs to be racked when it's close to finishing, so that the finished beer is not exposed to too much oxygen. I'll just siphon into a normal fermentor.

It's kind of why I'm trying a $10 tub from bunnings. If it works, and has a big, positive effect I'll look at eventually making a ss version with valves etc. I need to buy an auto siphon anyway ( glass carboys ) so at the moment I won't need to put taps in it.


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## mje1980 (14/6/14)

Batz said:


> On a small scale like we brew 20-50lt do you really think that vessel will make any difference?
> 
> I'm not having a go here as I really don't know, interested in your finding though.
> 
> Batz


In the "yeast" book by Chris white and Jamil whatsisname they mention 2 beers fermented in different shaped fermentors would definately taste different. I've got a few other books, mainly the uk beer style books which mention different ester profiles etc. 

I'll tell you when I do it. 



Number one for me I guess is making my ferm fridge as germ free as possible. I will be pitching healthy, stir plated yeast but it's one thing to ferment with a loose lid ( been doing it for years lid basically just sits on top ), but to just leave it uncovered completely, I dunno. I don't think it will be attacked by bugs but who knows?. 

I'll brew up a mild this week and head to bunnings.


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## Weizguy (14/6/14)

most open fermentors are shallow, I have read.
Open fermentors are famously and traditionally used for Weissbier, the other German ale - Altbier, California common, Yorkie Bitter (of course) and not so well known for Bitburger pils.

Here's a link that may help if anyone is keen to create an open fermentor (BYO magazine link)


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## lael (14/6/14)

From the reading I've done my impression is that it is more the shallowness of the vessel and the open ferment that makes the different taste. 

The monks in blam talked about having to change their brewing when they went to stainless tall fermenters, and only using partial capacity to keep the height down. Think it is westy that commented on it.


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## Midnight Brew (14/6/14)

An old stainless steel sink would be awesome if you could do it up.

Another idea, cut the top of a cube. Could still use the tap and you could pick how shallow you wanted the ferment. Good for a small size but guessing you could get about 12L beer from it.


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## goomboogo (14/6/14)

A forum member(Screwtop) used to open ferment in a round fermenter. He may still do this although I think he may have gone stainless. He may information regarding the sanitation angle.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/6/14)

As a side OT...

I do remember reading something about conicals are not as good flat bottom ferms due to the surface area the yeast has in contact with the wort. And that wider ferms are better than tall thin ones.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/6/14)

Conicals will give a quicker ferment mainly due to vertical currents that they generate, hence more yeast movement.
Nev


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## superstock (14/6/14)

Midnight Brew said:


> Another idea, cut the top of a cube. Could still use the tap and you could pick how shallow you wanted the ferment. Good for a small size but guessing you could get about 12L beer from it.


I like the idea, but if it's the depth & the surface area, why not just do 11 litres (1/2 batch) & leave the lid off?


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## Bribie G (14/6/14)

To get a protective layer of krausen, I'd use a top fermenting yeast such as Wyeast West Yorkshire, or Ringwood.




I'd been thinking along your lines for a while, personally I'd go for a less suss looking plastic, probably those clear plastic storage units with the little built in wheels.

If you were going to do open fermenting in a big way, why not make a simple "tent" out of clear polythene to act as a little clean room and have the whole thing mounted on a table.

ed: with the trundle style container you could put the lid on after primary, like they do when they seal off the bottom chamber of a Yorkshire Stone Square.


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## superstock (14/6/14)

Was at Woolies earlier and they had tubs like Bribie is describing. Marked as BPA free.


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## Weizguy (14/6/14)

Bribie G said:


> To get a protective layer of krausen, I'd use a top fermenting yeast such as Wyeast West Yorkshire, or Ringwood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love the W1469 and the W1187. Getting enthused again.



superstock said:


> Was at Woolies earlier and they had tubs like Bribie is describing. Marked as BPA free.


New Woolies just opened in my suburb, but still thinking about the BYO fermentor option in my post above.


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## mje1980 (15/6/14)

My plan is, if the cheapo version works, I'll do a stainless one, built to fit the fridge. 

Yes, picking the yeast is going to be fun, so many good ones from the uk.


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## booargy (15/6/14)

Hydronic heating/cooling under the tiles would be easy to do.


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## hugcra (15/6/14)

I've had issues fermenting in cubes before. Not enough oxygen maybe


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## wide eyed and legless (15/6/14)

http://www.abc.net.au/health/talkinghealth/factbuster/stories/2010/10/27/3048695.htm

A bit of plastic info mje, I like Not For Horses idea with the laundry trough.


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## mje1980 (15/6/14)

Cheers mate.


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## mje1980 (16/6/14)

I ended up grabbing a rectangular 18l willow storage container. This was the biggest that would fit in my small ferm fridge. Might have to do smaller batches than I normally do but I guess it's no big deal. I've got some 1318, and an auto siphon on the way and I'll be brewing a porter this week sometime to go in it. I plan on brewing beers for the bottle in the square/rectangle, or for the beer engine, not kegged beers. Might try a pale ale next if it works out ok.


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## mje1980 (17/6/14)

Brewing tomorrow, yeast should be here by weeks end, so hopefully by next week I'll have a tub full of yummy beer with a few inches of super healthy yeast on top. Will update whether it works as planned, or it goes bad and I end up with a storage tub full of sour mouldy puss


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## wide eyed and legless (17/6/14)

I agree with Les, the West Yorkshire 1469 would be a good yeast to try in an open ferment, don't know if you have to keep giving it a stir to wake it up though.


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## mje1980 (17/6/14)

Yeah it's a renowned top cropper. I dare say a lot of the uk strains would be suited to it. London ale 3, and West Yorkshire from wyeast are listed as both being top croppers, so I just picked one of those.


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## mje1980 (19/6/14)

So, my London ale 3 is on the stir plate, and by tomorrow it should be ready to go. Sanitising the container will be fun, I'll need to do it outside as it's not watertight by any means. Pretty excited, I'll take pics as I go.


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## Not For Horses (19/6/14)

What do you mean it's not watertight? How does the beer stay in there then?!?


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## headfreak (19/6/14)

Not For Horses said:


> What do you mean it's not watertight? How does the beer stay in there then?!?


As long as it's "wort tight" I guess...


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## mje1980 (19/6/14)

Not For Horses said:


> What do you mean it's not watertight? How does the beer stay in there then?!?


The lid, it's basically a rectangle storage tub, so when I put the iodophor in to sanitise I'll need to shake it around. With the lid not being watertight it'll probably be messy.


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## mje1980 (19/6/14)

The London ale 3 has been in the starter on the stir plate for maybe 3 hrs and is starting to show signs of life . I love the stir plate!


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## mje1980 (20/6/14)

So, its started. I've just put it in the fridge. I'm going to wait til tomorrow night and have a peak. Allowing 3" for krausen, I ended up putting around 10 litres in. Perfect for my real ale cube . The other 6 or so was still in the cube. Didn't want to waste it, so I raided the keg fridge and found a MJ Newcastle dark ale and a fresh vial of brett c. Pitched it all into my 10 litre funky cube to sit for a few months.


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## Bribie G (20/6/14)

I take it you nuked the fridge to ensure it's a clean room? Some of my fridges smell like a teenage boys' soccer change room.


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## mje1980 (20/6/14)

My fridge has always smelt pretty good. To be honest I didn't think of it at the time. Tell you tomorrow night if its ok


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## mje1980 (20/6/14)

If it tastes funny I'll just say it's the terroir of my fridge .


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)

Snuck a peek this morning, and there is a tan layer covering the surface of the whole tub. It's not thick like the pics of the uk squares, but I'm hoping by tonight or tomorrow it'll be nice and thick and creamy. The irony is I have 4 full cubes but none of them are uk ales haha, so I have nothing waiting to be fermented that would suit London ale yeast. I've got a beire de garde brune I suppose might suit but next time I'll make sure I've got something English waiting in a cube. 

I suppose in the future I could rack to 2ndary, clean and sanitise the tub, whack it straight back in the fridge with the fresh top cropped yeast and a new cube of ale, back to back. Maybe a bitter, then a pale ale, or a mild, then brown ale, then porter. As long as it kept throwing up a good crop. 

Probably getting ahead of myself at this stage haha. Will report back tonight.


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)

The MJ dark ale and brett c batch is going nuts as well.


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)




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## Robbo2234 (21/6/14)

Is that suspended my the handels in the shelf slots? If so that's a freaking good idea! I could ferment so much more beers that way!


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)

Nah mate it's just a tight fit!. Not sure the tub would be strong enough to hold the weight ?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/6/14)

mje1980 said:


> Nah mate it's just a tight fit!. Not sure the tub would be strong enough to hold the weight ?


If they did you could have a Burton union type set up where the yeast from the above FV would inoculate the lower one, brilliant.
The OVCIS : Open Vessel Cascading Inoculation System.
Nev


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## wide eyed and legless (21/6/14)

But you could put a support across the top of the tub and put another tub on top.


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## lael (21/6/14)

hmmm.... If stainless bain marie dishes were the right width for your fridge.... add a bulkhead, a pipe and a valve and you have Nev's idea ready to go...


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## gap (21/6/14)

> hmmm.... If stainless bain marie dishes were the right width for your fridge.... add a bulkhead, a pipe and a valve and you have Nev's idea ready to go...


I am currently researching bench top bain marie's for temperature control when making cheese.
They appear to come in a standard size about 530mm long by 325mm wide and 100mm or 150mm deep, may be able to get one 200mm deep. They also come in various fractions of this standard size.

Graeme


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## Bribie G (21/6/14)

The 150mm deep model would give you around 25L - a 200mm would be excellent.
How much to they cost?


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## gap (21/6/14)

On ebay for anything from $130 to $350 fpr a complete bench top bain marie with temperature control.

They trays can be had for 30$ or so.


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)

Hmmmmm, ss option would be very good. My fridge is small, so at the moment 400mm is the widest I can get and as you can see, it's tight at that. If the results are worth it, I'd happily look at getting a bigger ferm fridge so I could do full size batches. Might even swap my keg fridge over. A tap on the bottom would be awesome, and as mentioned, the beer could be "dropped" after 24hrs to another fermentor sitting underneath. 

I think the beer is at the first stage, where the junky crap is on top. Not sure when I should scoop this off to encourage fresh, healthy yeast to come up. Don't want to leave it too long. Might do tonight, that'll be 24 hours from pitching.


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)

Scooped the gunky foam off the top, and gently roused the beer with a sanitised ss spoon. I'm hoping tomorrow it'll have a decent head of cleaner foam. I made sure the surface of the beer is still covered with foam. After I roused it there was clearly bubbling activity through the foam so I'm assuming the yeast is doing it's thing. 

This is the most stressful fermentation ever haha. Smells nice though. It's a bit on the cool side, around 17c. Tomorrow I might let the temp come up a bit.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/6/14)

Think about an another throw away skim before you let the good one sit.
Can only make the final beer better/cleaner.
Nev


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## mje1980 (21/6/14)

Ok mate, will do. 

I admit, I had a sneaky peak just now. More foam building on top of what I skimmed already, still a bit dark in colour but a little lighter than it was. I really shouldn't look so much, I'm asking for trouble. Just so tempting to see haha. 

I'm going to transfer it to a standard plastic fermentor on Monday arvo. That will be 3 full days, so there should still be some fermentation left to do, but any flavours thrown up by the shape of the fermentor and open ferment should be in the beer already. Once it's in the fermentor I'll take a reading and see where it's at. 

Will make sure I do a trial run of the auto siphon too. 


In one way I'm hoping in the morning there isn't yeast overflowing the tub, making a mess of the fridge, but at the same time, I'll be quite happy if the yeast take off like that.


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## Mardoo (21/6/14)

This is where that glass-front fridge I just got COULD come in handy! May have to give it a go.


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## lael (21/6/14)

Ok, so the bain marie dishes are called Gastronorm Trays. Full size are 1/1 half 1/2 (go across the width of the bain marie) and third size 1/3rd (go across the width of the bain marie).


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## lael (21/6/14)

Pretty sure they used them on the brewbot - unsure if they are custom.
http://news.yahoo.com/brewbot-will-help-you-make-beer-with-a-mobile-app-controlled-brew-machine-183435818.html


It looks like the deepest standard I can find are 200mm deep:
http://hospitalitydepot.com.au/search/p/page/1/search/gastronorm%20tray/level3//field/level3/sort/title


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## mje1980 (22/6/14)

Much more creamy looking today. Not very thick and rocky but jeez, it's cool here, so maybe that could be contributing?. 

Anyway, I'll leave it til this arvo and scoop some off. 

So far, so good


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## wide eyed and legless (22/6/14)

Great thread mate, full of enthusiasm, always looking forward to your reports. Keep up the good work.


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## Midnight Brew (22/6/14)

Looks great mje, that's a good krausen if you think of the krausen in a round fermenter and this has more surface area. I've always found top cropping to be a timing based practice. Sometimes the window is too small, sometimes you end up with a krausen monster of over flow. Love it.


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## mje1980 (22/6/14)

Cheers mate, I love uk ales and while I'm happy with mine I'm always looking to make them better. Tub cost me $10 and I needed an auto siphon anyway so not a big expense so far. 

In the farmhouse ales book there's a pic of a DuPont fermentor, which is square. I've got two cubes of saison and some 3724 too. Tempted to give that a go too.


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## Mardoo (22/6/14)

I'll bet you could repurpose a SS laundry sink for this. Good depth, right capacity and you can pick them up used for next to nothing. BTW thanks for the inspiration. I've been thinking about trying this and I just may give it a go now.


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## billygoat (22/6/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> If they did you could have a Burton union type set up where the yeast from the above FV would inoculate the lower one, brilliant.
> Nev


I made a small Burton Union set up when using 1469. Worked well.
It was a PITA to clean though.


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## billygoat (22/6/14)

Don't know why the second picture has gone sideways, might have made it easier to clean though.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

Hey Mark, this tread has got me thinking, I may try a variation of your experiment.

I have an aeration kit (aquarium pump with air filter) I wonder if I left it pumping filtered air above the wort for a day or two? All as I would need to do is remove the air stone, push the tube through the airlock grommet so it’s suspended over the wort and leave the lid on slightly loose.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

All this talk of open fermenting has reminded me of these guys trying their hand at brewing. You may want to check this out and remember its particular important not to add too much yeast.


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## mje1980 (22/6/14)

Might work sean, let us know if you try it. I'd reckon a day or two max though.

I just top cropped some yeast. Seemed to work as usual, collected half a glass jar, topped up with cooled boiled water. Then roused gently with the spoon. Tomorrow arvo I'll bring it up to the kitchen bench and siphon into a closed secondary.


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## mkj (22/6/14)

Thinking about sinks as cheap SS vessels, wonder if you could use one for a boil kettle or mash tun too. Electric element, not gas fired.


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## Weizguy (22/6/14)

Would you use a rubber plug in the sink? How would you seal it?


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## Vini2ton (22/6/14)

Love your work.Different ideas keeps us ticking.Beware of those tubs.They get brittle after a while.I use them(32 lt ) for storing stubbies and many are patched with packing tape.Ponder...chinese gold mine shafts.


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## mkj (22/6/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Would you use a rubber plug in the sink? How would you seal it?


I was assuming some kind of metal fitting. Old sinks have brass plugholes.


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## S.E (23/6/14)

Mark it’s just occurred to me that there may be a flaw in your process. As you are fermenting in a small fridge you are not really open fermenting as the fridge is a closed container so will still retain co2 and restrict fresh air movement around your fermenter. You also mentioned that you have been avoiding opening it which won’t help.

If you don’t get the desired result this time try again with the fridge unplugged and the door wide open for a couple days. Ambient temps are favourable here this time of year.

I occasionally open ferment in my fridge here but don’t get anything like the thick rocky head I used to get in the UK fermenting in an open room.


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## mje1980 (23/6/14)

It gets opened a few times a day . I know what you're saying though. Will see. I tried this because a lot of the reading I did mentioned the actual shape of the fermentor, particularly the height to width ratio was key to the flavour development. Something about surface to air ratio as well, not just purely the fact that it was an open ferment, although that seems to contribute as well.

Jesus mate, I'm now tempted to ferment one on the kitchen bench haha. 

Will update later on, I'm going to transfer to a standard plastic fermentor for the rest of the fermentation. 

As soon as I can figure out the auto siphon


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## mje1980 (23/6/14)

Unless it goes sour, you'll taste the result at the stoutfest, via the engine.


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## sponge (23/6/14)

Make it sour..


You know you want to


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## mje1980 (23/6/14)

Haha, mate, my 2 sour carboys are already full . But I did put 5 litres of this batch that didn't fit into the tub into my funky cube with some brett c and MJ dark ale yeast .


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## S.E (23/6/14)

I was thinking the air to surface ratio could also be restricted in a closed fridge as the air can’t move freely over the surface or at least as freely as it would in the open.

I need to brew for stout fest this week (actually I already had but its disappearing fast) so I think I will open ferment it and leave the fridge door open to see if it makes any difference.

We may end up with a few cubes of sour stout. Never mind we could blend them or make sponge drink it all.


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## sponge (23/6/14)

After a few RIS's I'm sure it won't make much of a difference what's in my glass.


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## mje1980 (23/6/14)

Ok, so I siphoned it into a fermentor. On tasting of the hydro sample I'm quite happy with it. Very nice ester profile. I'm looking forward to drinking this through the engine on the day . So far, at this stage I think it's worth further exploration.


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## mje1980 (29/6/14)

Going to try a pale ale next up in the square. 1.050 so it will be bottled.


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## mje1980 (1/7/14)

So I've cubed some of the porter ( ready for the beer engine ) for our next club day, and bottled some for my own selfish consumption. Sample still tasted very nice and I'm looking forward to drinking some. I'm doing dry July, though I'm making an exception for the club day.


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## Not For Horses (1/7/14)

I remembered last night that I'd actually done an open ferment recently.
It was 3 months ago.
In the back room.
Then I forgot about it.
Now it's half the original volume and mouldy and obscenely disgusting.
Think I better try again.


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## mje1980 (1/7/14)

Eeeeew. I racked the beer after 3 days for that reason, it needs to be transferred while there's still some fermentables left, otherwise, well, you know why .


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## Mardoo (1/7/14)

Not For Horses said:


> I remembered last night that I'd actually done an open ferment recently.
> It was 3 months ago.
> In the back room.
> Then I forgot about it.
> ...


Don't just chuck it out. Does it taste OK?


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## mje1980 (28/7/14)

Tried one of the few remaining bottles last night. Really like it. I put the rest through a beer engine at a recent club day with positive comments. 



Sometime this week I'll be brewing a hoppy pale to see how it goes.


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## Mardoo (4/9/14)

I heard a Brewing Network interview with Chris White tonight where he said the key to using White Labs Belgian yeasts and NOT getting a lot of fruitiness is wide, shallow open fermentors. This was in the context of Belgians other than saisons, but they weren't specifically excluded. He specified the important aspect was zero difference from atmospheric pressure or top pressure from a tall fermentor.

Yet one more reason to give this a go!


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