# Any Know Of A Vb Recipe?



## marksy (27/5/10)

Hey All, 

My dad really really like his VB. So I was wondering if anyone knows of or has a recipe roughly for this? (without using kits)


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/5/10)

I would start by urinating in some longnecks and capping them.... :lol:


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## Greg Lawrence (27/5/10)

Although this is only your second post, it appears that you have been lurking around these parts for some time (joined Dec 08). Do you honestly expect any serious answers to your post?
I wouldnt imagine that there would be too many that would have tried to clone VB, let alone admit it here.


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## unrealeous (27/5/10)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...=24031&st=0


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## Mr.Moonshine (27/5/10)

You'll probably struggle to make something like VB, it has a very...original.... flavour profile. However, from what I can tell a decent standard style beer recipe like that would be as follows;

95% pilsner malt (fairly cheap stuff)
5% cane sugar
18-22IBU worth of POR (mostly bittering, wouldn't worry too much about flavour or aroma hops)
A fairly clean lager yeast (I beleive VB is fermented with a sort of hybrid yeast, kind of like that used at Boags, that can do ales and lagers just with different temperatures)
Ferment lowish, 10-12 degrees.

Nice and simple. You could bang 1-2% carapils in there if you were keen but that might make it a bit too malty for a VB clone. That's how I'd do it anyway.

Hope this helps,

Mr. Moonshine


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## Bribie G (27/5/10)

You really need to do a mashed grain brew, extracts etc just won't hit the spot as a lot of the VB taste is in the malt, as there's not a lot of real hops in the stuff. 

I'd use:

3.5 kg Australian Pilsener Malt mashed at 64 degrees for 90 mins

800g white sugar in the boil
A scattering of 10g or even less of Pride of Ringwood hop pellets in the boil to encourage break formation

Boil for 90 mins - partly to darken the wort slightly as VB is more of a golden than a straw colour, and also to drive off any compounds such as Dimethyl Sulphide.

A fairly reliable yeast would be S-189 Lager yeast, start fermenting at around 13 degrees then let it rise to around 18 degrees, aiming for a total fermentation time of about 8 days. Another good one would be W - 34/70 treated similarly. Rack to a cube and cold crash for ten days with the usual clearing agents (gelatine, Polyclar or just Isinglass). Before bottling or kegging, add isohop extract to taste. Now on this point I might need some advice as I'm not sure how much to put in, I have a vial that a fellow forum member sent me but I'm out of my depth with dosage requirements. I believe Ross at Craftbrewer (sponsor at top of page) sells it now and he should be able to advise.

Should get you pretty close.


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## alowen474 (27/5/10)

For the effort you would put in, go and buya 30 pack of cans for $30 and make yourself some tasty beer.


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## Dave70 (27/5/10)

I did a batch a little while ago.
Here's a photo of the fresh wort..








...sorry...

But in fact, you might actualy want to ring around to the brew shops and ask about their fresh wort kits, they might get you close.

I know Pat at Absolute Home Brew has a bunch of different styles.


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## komodo (27/5/10)

You know I love that everyone pasts the shit out of VB (and well all mega swill) on here. At the end of the day the product sells extreemly well and a lot of people enjoy it and wouldnt have anything else pass their lips. 
I have to say the other day I had a bucks night to attend and the only beer supplied was VB and you know what - I bloody well enjoyed having a VB with my mates. 
Now if Marksy's old man likes a VB and marksy would like to do his darnest to make a clone for his old man then so be it. For all we know Marksy making a homebrewed / craftbrewed clone of VB might be just the ticket to opening his dads taste buds to other beers out there.


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## Back Yard Brewer (27/5/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I would start by urinating in some longnecks and capping them.... :lol:



ROFL

Chill and then force carbonate as well :lol: 

BYB


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## Bribie G (27/5/10)

I've just read Randy Mosher's book "Radical Brewing" and also watched him in an episode of some podcast where he has visited a Bud plant in the USA and his comments really echo what Thirsty Boy would probably espouse as well re the Carlton products:

These beers are actually very well made. You might not like them and you might have many grounds on which to criticize their flavour profile etc, but at the end of the day they are produced in scrupulously hygienic and temperature controlled environments from strictly quality controlled ingredients which are the finest available - others being rejected. University trained brewers tweak and massage each brew to achieve a dead consistent product day in , year out and in the case of the likes of Bud or VB which have such a bland flavour profile, they don't have the luxury that we home brewers have, that we can hide flaws and shortcomings behind a shitload of cascade or an extra handful of crystal malt or a pack of BE2.

In a sense the commercial brews stand naked before the world - which is a world of yellow bland lager afficianados in their billions. The other side of the coin is that they are damned hard for home brewers to emulate. A lot of their character, such as it is, stems from proprietary ingredients such as the closely guarded yeast, and in the case of Fosters, the hop extracts that they manufacture in their own facilities. It's a challenge. In the forthcoming comps I'm actually going to try for a VB or Carlton clone and put it in the comps, if it does well then I reckon that's a well earned gong


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## warra48 (27/5/10)

VB may not be to our liking for most of us, but you must admit it certainly is popular with many drinkers out there.

I also feel you have to hand it to the major brewers that they are able to consistently produce a beer which appears to be the same from batch to batch all year round. That's no mean effort when you consider they need to deal with different malt lots and different hop vintages etc.

The beauty of homebrewing is we can attempt to brew anything we like which is to our taste, or to the taste of people you brew it for. If that happens to be VB, well so be it. It would take as much skill to get close to matching VB as it is to brew any of many other beer styles.

I don't have a recipe, as I don't brew many lagers, only 1 or maybe 2 a year, and I prefer to experiment with different styles of lagers. However, the advice from Mr Moonshine and BribieG looks sound to me.


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## Effect (27/5/10)

I would try using the wyeast 2124 but ferment at about 18 degrees, the taste I don't like in VB you should be able to get from a high temp with that lager yeast. For the malts I would go 92/3/5 Pilsner/carapils/sugar. I actually think that vb is more around the 25-30 IBU, POR should be fine at 60 min. It has the same amount of bitterness as fat yak - which is confirmed by the brewery.

Hope that helps
Cheers
Phil


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## Fourstar (27/5/10)

The question i want to put out there is, try and brew a plain Jane bland lager with the ingredients we use. Its a pretty hard job, even with 10% sucrose!

Heck, My Viet Rice lager for the last case swap got canned in beerfest for being to flavourful as a pale lager! :huh: 

One thing to note is CUB brew to high gravity and then thin their product out (or so im led to believe) post fermentation. What would the effect of the high gravity brewing have on ester production? You be the judge.

So it might not hurt to brew a 10% beer and once fermented, thin out with boiled cooled water and add ISO hop to adjust IBU if need be. Hmmm... i might try this the next time i make a light lager! At least that way i can brew a 20L batch and end up with two kegs worth! :beerbang:


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## Bribie G (27/5/10)

4* is dead right, I'd forgotten about that. They call the process "adjusting to Sale Strength" - sounds better than "watering down the piss" :lol:


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## hazard (27/5/10)

BribieG said:


> 4* is dead right, I'd forgotten about that. They call the process "adjusting to Sale Strength" - sounds better than "watering down the piss" :lol:


So when the ABV of VB went from 4.9% to 4.6%, I assume that this was achieved simply by adding more water to to the high ABV beer. Good trick, use same amount of ingredients, get more beer with less taste. 

BTW - I read in the paper that CUB's brewery opperations is worth around $10 BILLION dollars, So whinge about VB (I hate the stuff personally) but someone is making a s..tload of money out of it.


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## mje1980 (27/5/10)

S23 lager yeast, sugar, not many hops. My guess


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## Nick JD (27/5/10)

After a fair bit of trying to make clones of Aussie Megaswill Lagers and failing because my beer tastes nicer than CUBs I have come to the conclusion that one cannot make an accurate clone of a Carlton beer with _hops. _Well, I can't anyway. 

My clones taste like PoR. VB doesn't. It tastes like Mercaptan, and God help you if it's warmed up above 6C. My Aussie Lagers taste great at 6C - and that's not-to-style!

Get some PoR isohop. You'll never make a great clone of a beer made with hop extracts ... without hop extracts. 

2c.


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## petesbrew (27/5/10)

Ah VB! One of the most popular drinks in Oz.
I'd say you can break down vb drinkers into the following groups:

13% Teens & apprentices who are getting a taste for beer.
27% Old pricks stuck in their ways. It's VB or VB. Nothing else.
41% Immigrants with a bad grasp of english. VB is easy to say.
31% Guys buying 10 x 30can blocks for a party cos they couldn't be arsed choosing something else.
5% Dumbarses who are invited round to a homebrewers house, and leave a six pack of this in the fridge as thanks... bastards.
44% Guys with drinks tokens at events.... "hmmm I can get one extra drink out of this roll of vouchers if I stick to VB... gulp"

These percentages are correct. Don't bother argueing... but feel free to add more.


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## Fourstar (27/5/10)

hazard said:


> So when the ABV of VB went from 4.9% to 4.6%, I assume that this was achieved simply by adding more water to to the high ABV beer. Good trick, use same amount of ingredients, get more beer with less taste.
> 
> BTW - I read in the paper that CUB's brewery opperations is worth around $10 BILLION dollars, So whinge about VB (I hate the stuff personally) but someone is making a s..tload of money out of it.



I believe i read somewhere, recipe tweaking was also used to try and adjust the flavour profile of the product. Put it this way, .2-.3% is the threshold of the tax requirements exceeding the noted ABV on the bottle (varies for bottle conditioned or force carbed). If it can vary that munch by and increase and no one screams bloody mary, why all of a sudden do they scream when its lower?

Bit of a placebo if you ask me! Also, for arseing around purposes ive taken hydro and refrac readings of Carlton Draught at times and have seen varied FG and different estimated OGs. Generally they are the same or _lower_ but it shows there are some density differences batch per batch. Or my equiptment needs calibration! :lol:


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## petesbrew (27/5/10)

VB? Piece of piss!
Tooheys lager
Tooheys brewing sugar
kit yeast

make label and add the word "premium", "dry" or "low carb".
Actually, if it's for your old man, don't. A VB drinker would never touch that stuff.


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## marksy (28/5/10)

To all of you who were helpfull thanks. All is noted and I will see what I can come up with. 

and to all of you who made a joke outta of it...


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## shadowofdarkness (28/5/10)

Hey Marksy, good luck...

Just for my two cents worth, 5% sugar as noted previously is VERY low for VB... Start creeping up around the 20-30% mark, mash higher, and maybe more crystal for colour/body. Also, as mentioned by 4*, brew stronger, and dilute to approx. 4.6% ABV.

Cheers.


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## benno1973 (28/5/10)

Out of interest (and I'm not saying anyone's wrong here)...

Why add sugar and carapils/crystal? Or why add sugar and then mash higher? Sugar is used to lighten body/flavour while still increasing ABV. Carapils and higher mash temps are there to increase body and flavour. Doesn't it seem that the two will cancel each other out? I can understand using both in a belgian tripel, where you're trying to dry out a full bodied beer to make it more drinkable, but not in a VB clone...


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## Muggus (28/5/10)

Personally I think you're best off keeping this simple, like Bribie mentioned earlier on.
100% Joe White Pilsner in a 90 min mash at low temps.
20% Cane Sugar
90 min boil to get some colour and boil off MOST of the DMS.
Pride Of Ringwood flowers up to 25IBU...maybe just a touch towards the end
Lager yeast...generic not one of the nice Czech/German ones...fermented a bit warmer than normal and no extended lagering.
And if you overstep the OG, abv or flavour at any stage, put the black snake in it and water it down!

Seems simple, but at the end of the day, consistency is the key to these macro lagers. If VB were a couple of IBU higher or lower, old mate down at the local would notice, even after a pack of Winny blues.

Good luck anyway bro...let me know when you're done and i'll come down for some tastings.


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## hazard (28/5/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> Out of interest (and I'm not saying anyone's wrong here)...
> 
> Why add sugar and carapils/crystal? Or why add sugar and then mash higher? Sugar is used to lighten body/flavour while still increasing ABV. Carapils and higher mash temps are there to increase body and flavour. Doesn't it seem that the two will cancel each other out?


Well the sugar is there becasue most Australian lagers are 30% sugar, so a clone must include it.

But I agree that you could drop the carapils. If grist was just pale malt and sugar it would be very light in colour so maybe a little bit of medium crystal for colour, not enough to make a big impact on taste. Say 100 to 200g.


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## tipsy (28/5/10)

Mr.Moonshine said:


> You'll probably struggle to make something like VB, it has a very...original.... flavour profile. However, from what I can tell a decent standard style beer recipe like that would be as follows;
> 
> 95% pilsner malt (fairly cheap stuff)
> 5% cane sugar
> ...



This is how I make it, I also add a small amount (30g) of roast barley.
This gets the colour right and helps to give it that dry taste.


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## Mayor of Mildura (28/5/10)

One of the other members on the forum (awesome fury) makes a mean aussie lager. 

Pretty much as the others have said. Mostly base malt, POR to 25 IBU, Wyeast 2024 Danish lager yeast.

Tastes well.... awesome! we drained a couple of his kegs for him last friday night just to make sure :icon_drunk:


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## technoicon (28/5/10)

mayor of mildura said:


> One of the other members on the forum (awesome fury) makes a mean aussie lager.
> 
> Pretty much as the others have said. Mostly base malt, POR to 25 IBU, Wyeast 2024 Danish lager yeast.
> 
> Tastes well.... awesome! we drained a couple of his kegs for him last friday night just to make sure :icon_drunk:




haha was a good night.

the recipe for anyone interested. i modified the aussie gold lager

Aussie Gold Lager 
Australian Lager 


Type: All Grain
Date: 16/03/2010 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Josef A Tamaliunas 
Boil Size: 28.19 L Asst Brewer: Awesome Fury 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 40.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 
Taste Notes: Easy to make, simple infusion mash for a great easy drinking beer 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 100.00 % 
20.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 19.9 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (30 min) Hops 4.7 IBU 
10.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (5 min) Hops 2.0 IBU 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Danish Lager (Wyeast Labs #2042) Yeast-Lager 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.70 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 % 
Bitterness: 26.5 IBU Calories: 487 cal/l 
Est Color: 7.1 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: BIAB Total Grain Weight: 5.00 kg 
Sparge Water: 12.45 L Grain Temperature: 22.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

BIAB Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
75 min Mash In Add 15.00 L of water at 74.4 C 68.5 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 6.25 L of water at 94.8 C 75.6 C 

Mash Notes: BIAG 
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.5 
Pressure/Weight: 10.0 PSI Carbonation Used: - 
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 2.0 C Age for: 14.0 days 
Storage Temperature: 3.0 C 

Notes

Can substitute late hops with Cascade or Horizon etc according to taste but you'll be amazed how good P.O.R. can be.


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## Dazza_devil (28/5/10)

What is the contributing factor in this beer that gives off the foul odour when you crack one, makes me reach.
The yeast?


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## Muggus (28/5/10)

Boagsy said:


> What is the contributing factor in this beer that gives off the foul odour when you crack one, makes me reach.
> The yeast?


Probably lager yeast fermented too warm.
Possibly, also, some DMS from the pilsner malt not being boiled long enough...not sure, been a while since i've had a VB.


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## geoffi (28/5/10)

I had one for the first time in years the other day, out of politeness. First impression was the foul stench. Yes, lager yeast fermented too warm might be the culprit. Second impression, the cloying sweetness. That could be down at least in part to the almost complete lack of bitterness in this laughably misnamed 'bitter'.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks. If it appeals to you, hey, go for it. But as for me, if I never drink another VB it will be too soon.


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## tazman1967 (28/5/10)

As for the yeast... I use Wyeast 2042 Danish Lager for my Cascade Premium recipe. Imho I heard that the Fosters group use this yeast ??


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## Tony (28/5/10)

Boagsy said:


> What is the contributing factor in this beer that gives off the foul odour when you crack one, makes me reach.
> The yeast?




Mmmm that calton smell. I notice it on a schooner of Kent brown at the bowling club. I tried it a couple times but cam to the conclusion its VB with a bit of colour.

Dont they boil the wort with no hops and add extract at bottling or something?

Mmmmm

I have an aussie ale on tap ATM and its very close to tooheys new..... but a tad more bitter as was my want. Used GOlden promise, some Pils and a bit of wheat and POR flowers. US-05 and its great. Nice crisp, easy to drink POR character they is evident in megaswills and no stink 

good luck on your quest mate

cheers


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## Batz (28/5/10)

Some good information here and the usual dribble about peeing in a bottle etc. V.B. is no easier to duplicate then any other beer. If you don't agree just try to do a clone with a side by side tasting and tell me if yours is the same.
OK, next we hear why bother, mine would be better, I won't lower my standards etc etc. 
To clone any beer is not all that easy, but clone a V.B. , hey why bother just drink cats pee :lol:  



Batz


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## chug!chug! (28/5/10)

Tony and Batz have great aussie ale recipes on the board. Make something based on these recipes first then adjust to taste. You will have a much better result.


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## jakub76 (28/5/10)

Years ago I heard from a guy that worked at the Brisbane Carlton brewery that the only difference between Fosters and VB was a bag of salt. Now I have no idea why anyone would add salt to their beer, it inhibits yeast and tastes...well salty. 
That unmistakable taste and aroma from VB is something I would consider an off flavour in my own brews. I would be interested to see if someone sent a couple of VB bottles to a competition and received judge's notes. That would clear a lot of questions up for me. 
Better still - if there are any BJCP judges reading this thread, perhaps you could do a tasting of VB and give the rest of us some idea of what is going on with it.
Not something I'd be striving for but I completely understand the desire to clone a beer. My advice would be to broaden your horizons, taste some internationals and decide what you like best. Don't be bullied into saying IPA either, if it ends up that VB is your drink of choice then that is your decision and power to you.


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## shazzam (28/5/10)

Unless you can pasteurise the beer @ 60 degress you aren't going to get close to VB - apparently it tastes quite Ok pre-pasteurised !


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## BjornJ (28/5/10)

After reading some threads from ThirstyBoy who actually is a brewer, my understanding is that Australian Lagers taste the way they do (or at least partially because of):
-lager yeast started out low then ramped up to more ale-like temperatures
-beer fermented high-gravity then diluted with 30% oxygen-free water AFTER fermentation
-up to 20-30% cane sugar as this is the cheapest sugar in Australia (probably as some kind of syrup?)

And that this is why Australian Lagers have that easy-drinking, ice-cold not-very-malty kind of thing going that makes them easy to drink while the Swans are getting slaughtered yet again  


I have made a couple of versions of "aussie lager" but understand I won't be able to make them taste like the normal pub lagers as I probably use too much malt, not the "right" temperature, don't ferment high-gravity, etc.

thanks
Bjorn


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## chappo1970 (28/5/10)

Batz said:


> Some good information here and the usual dribble about peeing in a bottle etc. V.B. is no easier to duplicate then any other beer. If you don't agree just try to do a clone with a side by side tasting and tell me if yours is the same.
> OK, next we hear why bother, mine would be better, I won't lower my standards etc etc.
> To clone any beer is not all that easy, but clone a V.B. , hey why bother just drink cats pee :lol:
> 
> ...




:lol: I was thinkin' exactly the same Batz as I was scrolling thru this one


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## Tony (28/5/10)

give this a try:




Bulls Tail Pale Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.20
Anticipated OG: 1.045 Plato: 11.21
Anticipated EBC: 7.8
Anticipated IBU: 28.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.7 3.60 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
9.5 0.40 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.037 4
4.8 0.20 kg. JWM Caramalt Australia 1.036 50

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 10.20 10.6 First WH
14.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 10.20 15.1 45 min.
12.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 10.20 2.8 5 min.


Yeast
-----

US-05


you wont look back!

If your system wont handle whole flowers use pellets

cheers


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## michaelcocks (28/5/10)

BjornJ said:


> After reading some threads from ThirstyBoy who actually is a brewer, my understanding is that Australian Lagers taste the way they do (or at least partially because of):
> -lager yeast started out low then ramped up to more ale-like temperatures
> -beer fermented high-gravity then diluted with 30% oxygen-free water AFTER fermentation
> -up to 20-30% cane sugar as this is the cheapest sugar in Australia (probably as some kind of syrup?)
> ...



I recall doing a tour of the fosters brewer a few years back . The girl conducting the tour was just a marketing skirt and had obviously no concept of brewing 

(no change there I have yet to do a public tour that was conducted by anyone who new anything about brewing... My favourite classic was when I asked the speights (Dunedin NZ) brewery tour girl what variety of hops they used she said "these green ones here" pointing to a sample she had in her tour guide set of props...

Anyway back on point during the tour of the fosters brewery the tour girl proudly says beer is madefrom this ... Malt she holds up a few grains, hops (again the demo prop) and liquid sugar, (she proudly holds up a small container of transluscent brown goo...
She obviously wasn't told about the water and yeast..
Perhaps thirsty boy can enlighten us as to the quantity of sugar ( I have seenfigures anywhere between 10 and 30 %)


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## Benniee (28/5/10)

Batz said:


> V.B. is no easier to duplicate then any other beer. If you don't agree just try to do a clone with a side by side tasting and tell me if yours is the same.



I would agree that attempting to clone a commercial beer is a difficult task for most amatuer brewers - just take a look at a lot of people's favourite American brewer's latest round of podcasts - Can You Brew It.

I haven't ever set out to duplicate a commercial beer, but I have attempted to brew to style. In fact I now try to brew all of my beers to a defined BJCP style.

One thing to be aware of when brewing a light lager such as this is any slight flaws with your brewing process can show up in the final product. There isn't a lot of hops or malt to hide behind in the finished beer. I don't mean to discourage you in any way. If I were having a crack at this I'd take as many notes as I could about each brew/recipe - and hopefully over a couple of batches of beer you'll get close enough.

Good luck with it - and have fun brewing. I'm sure you're Dad will enjoy drinking your attempts  

Benniee


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## thelastspud (29/5/10)

shazzam said:


> Unless you can pasteurise the beer @ 60 degress you aren't going to get close to VB - apparently it tastes quite Ok pre-pasteurised !



you could put the keg or bottles in your hlt for a hour at 60 degress that would pasteurise it. A mate of mine does something similar with his home made tomato sauce.


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## kelbygreen (29/5/10)

wouldnt heating it to 60deg kill the yeast off?? might be ok if kegging but doubt you would get carbonation in bottled unless it was force carbed


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## Bribie G (29/5/10)

Yes that pasteurisation would be a bugger to replicate. Here in Bris you can still get XXXX off the wood served on gravity, unpasteurised, and it's on a totally different plane to the nuked gassed 'normal' version. I suppose you could pasteurise a couple of dozen bottles then open them and drop a few granules of yeast into each, and recap. If you did it with already gassed bottles I reckon you might get an ugly scene in the kitchen. Just out of interest I may try it with a PET of beer next time I have the urn on full of strike water, but I'll cover it with a blast proof doonah - don't fancy the effect on the white and cream decor in the garage if things go pear shaped :unsure:

Edit: I know some breweries do it with their bottle conditioned beers, so you don't steal their yeast. Don't LCPA do that? There are more threads than you can poke a stick at re culturing Coopers Sparkling yeast but you never hear about LCPA being used similarly.


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## thelastspud (29/5/10)

BribieG said:


> Edit: I know some breweries do it with their bottle conditioned beers, so you don't steal their yeast. Don't LCPA do that? There are more threads than you can poke a stick at re culturing Coopers Sparkling yeast but you never hear about LCPA being used similarly.



I think I read on here that LCPA is filtered and then dosed with the pilsner yeast.

edit
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...40301&st=20 
yeah here is a post from the LC chief brewer


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## Bribie G (29/5/10)

Wow, Alex T (Alex Troncoso) "Our yeast is stored in Copenhagen"...................." and Wyeast Danish pops up again and again when discussing the brewing of Aussie Lagers. All roads lead to Copenhagen it seems. As it happens I'm going to do a lager today, might head for the pub and get a few LCPAs.


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## Nick JD (29/5/10)

I have no idea how they make VB taste worse than their other offerings, but a great "Carlton Clone" is easy - and is one of my three quaffers. 

18L
3kg BB Ale
300g Dextrose
16g PoR for 60 min
34/70 Yeast @ 11C with 20C diacetyl rest at FG

Tasted back to back with Carlton Draft it's very, very similar but with a tad more PoR flavour. I woudn't be surprised if a 90 minute boil would remove more of the hop flavour - but I don't because I think that remnant PoR flavour in an Aussie Lager is delicious.

VB's "sewer" aroma makes me think _mercaptan, _and I have a suspicion that DMS and sulphur compounds might be reacting to produce this stuff in VB when they warm it to 67C for a few minutes - but that's a complete guess and doesn't explain why only VB has it. 

Is the "salt" thing for real?


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## MHB (29/5/10)

Not one of my favourite beers; however like most successful commercial brewers they are "Technically" excellently made.

There are some features of the production process that are unique and in some cases fairly difficult to emulate on a small scale, one of them is the sheer size of the fermenters. If you work out the pressure on the yeast at the bottom of a fermenter that is say 50 meters high (not sure of the exact height of the fermenters at CUB but they are HUGE). Remember that the 

Beer is brewed at a high over gravity probably 1.070-1.080, from P=Density X Height X g we get 1.075 x 50 x 9.81= 526.75 kPa or over 5 bar, I'm pretty sure both the high gravity and high pressure are going to change the way the yeast behaves.

CUB makes their own hop extract and according to the flow diagram at the brewery the "Bitterness" is added after lagering, again yeast acting on unhoped wort acts differently.

As a percentage of extract I suspect the sugar content is around 40% and the mash will be very hot and very intensive to provide an appropriate amount of unfermentable dextrin's in the diluted, lagered finished beer.

From what I have heard the brewhouse efficiency is very high approaching 100%, so very fine grist, extremely high efficiency multi step programmed infusion and extremely slow lautering.

Love it or hate it the brewers are very good at what they do. And it's possibly the hardest style of beer to make at home

MHB


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## Dazza_devil (29/5/10)

I 'm just pleased I go to much much less trouble to make much much better beer.


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## Thirsty Boy (30/5/10)

The main two tings you wont be able to emulate is the Yeast - CUB beers are brewed with a proprietary yeast. IMO the yeast that comes closest to CUB's main strain is WY2124 (saflager 34/70) fermented at a higher temperature.. low ale temps - and the hop extract. Even other non-Abbotsford made iso extracts don't taste right. But as far as I am aware CUB sells its extract... so for all I know the isohop you buy in the LHBS might be ours anyway.

MHB - close enough on most counts. Considerably less sugar than that, try 15-20% of your extract and you would be closer. Not high mash temps... short sach rests instead (Its much more practical for a big brewery to control fermentability with time than temperature). Medium lauter and the grist is processed in a 6 roller mill, so its not course or fine.. its tailored for our lauter tuns to give specific percentages of husk, course grits, fine grits and flour. I'm sure CUB would love it if the efficiency was approaching 100%... but its less than that. Its still pretty damn high by homebrewer standards.... but nothing you wouldn't expect from a well run lauter tun.

Thirsty


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## MHB (30/5/10)

Thanks TB, Nothing like working there to get the right answers, most of my guestimates were based on gossip and fairly widely available information.

Those 6 roll mills are a work of art, from memory they looked like Stiners with the vibrating separators very precisely controlled grist.

Just out of curiosity is the balance of the grist all barley, (fully understand if that's not something you can talk about) just that quite a few books talk about the high rice content of Australian commercial lagers, frankly I can't find anyone who uses much if any.

MHB


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## keleidoscope (31/5/10)

michaelcocks said:


> My favourite classic was when I asked the speights (Dunedin NZ) brewery tour girl what variety of hops they used she said "these green ones here" pointing to a sample she had in her tour guide set of props...



That's a shame, my tour there was done by one of the brewers, and he knew his shit. Though I was the only one on the tour who had heard of hops and had any idea about how beer was made, so I guess they can get away with it in most cases. The guys asks, who knows what other plant hops are related to? I answer marijuana and everyone looked at me like I was nuts. I'm there thinking, god I hope I'm right or I'll look like a crazy stoner.


On topic, if you can't be bothered with going to the effort of a mash for this project, Brew Craft make a VB imitation bundle. I've never peeked inside the box to see what exactly they have got in there though. It might be close enough.


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## Thirsty Boy (31/5/10)

MHB said:


> Thanks TB, Nothing like working there to get the right answers, most of my guestimates were based on gossip and fairly widely available information.
> 
> Those 6 roll mills are a work of art, from memory they looked like Stiners with the vibrating separators very precisely controlled grist.
> 
> ...



They are ancient looking things, but like you said, works of industrial art.. to be honest I cant re-call the brand (Bizarrely I don't know that I have ever actually looked) but apart from chucking the occasional belt, I can't believe that things that are so old and have so many moving, rolling vibrating bits in them, can work so well and so reliably. Beautiful grist they pump out. They do have the vibrating separators.. so you are probably right.

I'm pretty sure I am on safe grounds discussing this stuff... I don't think I have said (and I try not to say) anything that you aren't going to be able to get on the tours they run through the plant every day. No rice, just a few different sorts of Barret Burston malt (and roast barley) and syrups.


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## Nick JD (31/5/10)

Where does one buy an accurate PoR isohop extract? I can still taste lovely hops in my Aussie Lagers even at 90 minute boils!


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## Bribie G (31/5/10)

Nick JD said:


> Where does one buy an accurate PoR isohop extract? I can still taste lovely hops in my Aussie Lagers even at 90 minute boils!



Give Ross a ring. He said they had isohop in stock but not yet on the site.


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## Nick JD (31/5/10)

BribieG said:


> Give Ross a ring. He said they had isohop in stock but not yet on the site.



Thanks, mate - am popping up to Bris in the next few days, so will add it to the list. I wonder if it's the CUB stuff?


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