# Not Getting Much Head



## Phill D (29/10/09)

Hi Guys - now that i have your attention.....

Anyway - i have brewed a couple of times before but didnt continue because I was probably a little underwhelmed with the results. I have had a couple of passable brews but the head on the beer or retention of a head was a little dissapointing.

Q: Is that related directly to carbonation or lack of it? ie more carbonation = a better foaming top on the brew?

I have brewed a couple of coopers as standard with dextrose and blue mountains morgan with corn syrup, fermented ok, bottled with carbonation drops and waited for things to work etc etc. Maybe i was too impatient to get into it and it should have been left longer. On average how long should you / do you leave your brews to mature?

This time I have a Blue Mountains Lager with Pale Malt and Cascade Hops happening in the barrell and just about to bottle - so thought i would ask.

I have also seen some debate on carbon drops - is one carbon drop enough for a good carbonation In your Opinion.

Thanks in advance - this is a terrific forum and great knowledge base! 

2beers


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## troopa (29/10/09)

What size bottles are you using .. that would help with how much sugar you need to carbonate
Is the powered malt just light dried malt or is it the brew shops "special" blend?
Usually the blend adds wheat malt that will help with head retention

and to your question.. yes carbonation helps with head retention as far as if the beer is flat in the first place you wont get a head 

Usually you need at least 2 weeks to fully carb a bottle up but longer will allow the flavours to mellow a little and taste better

Congrats on sticking with it all and im sure in the end youll be making good beer (Edit) that you will be glad to offer to friends and family and tell them how much you now dislike VB over your own homebrew 

Tom


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## Phill D (29/10/09)

Troopa said:


> What size bottles are you using .. that would help with how much sugar you need to carbonate
> Is the powered malt just light dried malt or is it the brew shops "special" blend?
> Usually the blend adds wheat malt that will help with head retention
> 
> ...



Thanks Tom - appreciate the response. Yes perserverance was one of the things i picked up from reading the site and decided to get back into it. The malt additon was the Coopers Pale suggested by the HBS. I have a mix of bottles. 750ml pet and i have fifteen swingtops (grolsch etc)

Cheers
Phill


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## manticle (29/10/09)

Are your brews flat or carbonated but just without head?


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## Renegade (29/10/09)

I found that my early brews lacked head, and suspect that the glues & resins from the labels may have been the culprit, so all bottles were given a good clean with bicarb and a bottle brush. Could be my imagination. 

It appears that the greater the usage of grain instead of liquid malts, the less this has been an issue anyway. You can even use grain that will help head retention, such as carafoam (? dunno, I dont use it). For the time being, you could use a bit of maltodextrin and observe the difference. Dont go overboaerd on this stuff though, too much will do things to the body of your beer. 

There's an article in the database you may find worth reading: 
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...;showarticle=70

And one carbonation drop for a stubbie / two for a longneck is sufficient. Actually I reckon that's too much, but you cant really customise the measurement (and which is why bulk-priming is advantageous - but one thing at a time !)

All the best


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## BjornJ (29/10/09)

Hi there,
no expert on this but I have read a bit about what affects foam/head on the beer.
How long you leave them in the bottle seems to matter.
Having a very clean glass definetly does, as well. Normal dish washing detergent leaves a residue behind that normal rinsing possibly may not get rid of. I rinse my beer glasses 5-6 times really well (maybe a bit much?) after washing them, just to make sure.

After a month you can start tasting the homebrew, but "they" claim they will in most normal kit beer cases improve up to 3 months. In my experience my Coopers Lager, Coopers Draught kind of beers would be better after 3 months than after 2, better after 5 than after 3, by then they were all gone. Head/foam seemed to get better after several months, the foam consists then of more, smaller bubbles rather than the big, soft drink kind of bubbles.

How about adding some carapils? http://craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=799
Next time, make the exact same beer as today, take notes so you remember how much to add of everything.
But add 200 gr of Carapils, these grains are less fermentable than normal grains, leaving more stuff in the finished beer to give "body" and head.
You heat about a litre of water to 65-68 degrees and throw the grains in for 10-20 mins, then dump this (liquid only) in the fermenter.

thanks
BjornJ


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## Renegade (29/10/09)

BjornJ said:


> You heat about a litre of water to 65-68 degrees and throw the grains in for 10-20 mins, then dump this (liquid only) in the fermenter.



Add: You should really boil the tea after you take the grains out. Maybe not essential for a small addition, but good practice nonetheless.


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## troopa (29/10/09)

Um i mighta missed something in the OPs post.. but what has grains got to do with the way the OPs brewing?
2beers seems to be a KandK brewer.. and being posted in the Kits and extract section im guessing grains wernt a factor

And thers pleanty of stuff on the market to help these guys (sorry) with head retention.. BE2 Wheat malt Homebrew shops "Speacial" blend you name it 

plus someone else mentioned Cleaning your glass correctly and correct carbination 

Little rant sorry.. 

Tom


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## Renegade (29/10/09)

Mate, it's CONVERSATION ! You know, the stuff that people did before TV & Playstation (I know, it's ironic that I'm typing this to an internet site instead of talking to my family). His question is being addressed. What's the problem with adding another two bob's worth?


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## troopa (29/10/09)

Wasnt Suggesting it wasnt good conversation .. i would love to suggest to the OP to go partial then AG i actually recommend that 2beers has a big read of both sections if he/she hasnt already
But the question put forward in this sub forum was about kits and extracts and had nothing to do with grains ,steeping and boiling and the OPs level of knowledge showed that (sorry 2beers)

I think the question was a great one at that cause new ppl to home brewing relate how good their brew is to commercial by head retention and lacing( well i know i did ) apart from taste

Back on topic
just a thought would be to grab a bottle of your favorite beer and pour it in a glass you use and see just how good the glass is compared with a home brew
itll show if its your brew of your glass thats causing the problem

Tom


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## manticle (29/10/09)

Troopa said:


> Wasnt Suggesting it wasnt good conversation .. i would love to suggest to the OP to go partial then AG i actually recommend that 2beers has a big read of both sections if he/she hasnt already
> But the question put forward in this sub forum was about kits and extracts and had nothing to do with grains ,steeping and boiling and the OPs level of knowledge showed that (sorry 2beers)



The suggestion was that 2beers future brews' head retention might benefit from the addition of a small amount of steeped grain. It wasn't amazingly out of place.

'My brew is X'. 
'Well to fix X you might add Y'

Whether 'y' be maltodex or carapils, both are a simple and easily understood remedy.

Anyway the main thing to figure out is if it's something in the brew (and whether pre-ferment or during) or something in the bottle or something in the glass.

Then remedies will be forthcoming.


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## Renegade (29/10/09)

Troopa said:


> But the question put forward in this sub forum was about kits and extracts and *had nothing to do with grains* ,steeping and boiling and the OPs level of knowledge showed that



Huh ? Potentially the answer to this question is ALL about grain.


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## bullsneck (29/10/09)

Add some wheat extract to your beers, just a little. Wheat is higher in protein; the stuff that helps keeps foam on top.


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## gjhansford (29/10/09)

Hey ... wait a minute guys ...

Today (tonight) is 2beers first post ... and he only joined AHB at 4pm today ... gve the guy/girl a break! I notice he's logged out already ... hope we haven't blown him away with all the repartee ... let's be gentle on the new posters with genuine questions.


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## bum (29/10/09)

What the hell are you talking about? I cannot see anything 2beers might possibly take personally. 2beers has gotten plenty of good advice here. He should be stoked. I would be.

Lots of great things to try here, 2beers. Even the opposing view-points are all valid. If the options seem a bit overwhelming just do a search for key terms and get a bit more background info. Welcome aboard.


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## Renegade (29/10/09)

ghhb said:


> Hey ... wait a minute guys ...
> 
> Today (tonight) is 2beers first post ... and he only joined AHB at 4pm today ... gve the guy/girl a break! I notice he's logged out already ... hope we haven't blown him away with all the repartee ... let's be gentle on the new posters with genuine questions.



He logged out after only six hours ! Dear God, were you expecting him to pull an all-nighter ? 

And WTF are you talking about anyway? The only thing I can see that's coounter-productive here is Troopa's posts, and they weren't directed at the new member in the slightest (Ok, perhaps he was a touch patronising, but no big deal). 

How about showing the newbies that as grown men we (by we I mean YOU) don't have to be ******* drama queens ? THAT may determine whether someone revisits this site in future.


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## manticle (29/10/09)

I got furniture polish all over my carpet.


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## mwd (29/10/09)

I am suffering a deja view moment same month same planet.

No HEEEED .

Seems nobody ever can be bothered to go back a few pages now we will be getting another six page thread of garbage.


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## Renegade (29/10/09)

If any given question was only EVER asked once in the lifetime of this forum, it would be a very dull place indeed. 

And being that the OP joined three weeks after the last post on the the thread you referenced, your comment is invalid. Who are you to assume everyone knows the mechanics of a web forum ? It's not a prerequisite for membership ! 

2Beers, don't be put off by the whiney old grumps & the PMS suffering blokes here. Ask as many questions as you like, and mostly you'll get lots of good answers, along with suggestions you may have not considered.


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## rude (29/10/09)

Try a kilo of light dried malt extract, I used to use muntons.

If you do you should boil it up in say 5 litres of water add some hops in a sock at 30 mins or less depending on style , type of hops & then some more hops on the last 1 min mark

Then poor this in with youre kit plus cool water to get it at pitching temp 18c if its an ale yeast.

I bet you dont have a prob with head retention providing there is no detergent on youre glass

Down the track you can steep some crystal grains (spec malt)

Then youll be into all grain before you know it

Nothing worse than no head he cried


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## phonos (30/10/09)

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is that (from what I've read and heard said by 'experts' on podcasts) hops also aid head retention. The easiest way for a kit brewer to add these is to grab a hop teabag from your homebrew shop, make a hop tea (exactly like you would make a normal cup of tea with a tea bag - no milk and sguar though!), let it sit for a couple of minutes and add the lot to your fermenter.

This method improves hop flavour and aroma as well as head retention.

Your homebrew shop owner will be able to suggest a suitable hop for the style of beer you're making.


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## Dazza_devil (30/10/09)

Nothing a rubber neck wouldn't fix.
But seriously I think the problem lies in under-carbonation, possibly waiting longer for carbonation at a good conditioning temp.
Perhaps revising pouring methods and glass cleansing technique may also help.
I'd go bulk priming, I did on my second brew and have never looked back. Now I carbonate to my specific desired level and it's good for any size bottle I wanna bottle in. 
And make sure them caps are on good and tight.


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## buttersd70 (30/10/09)

Phonos said:


> Something else that hasn't been mentioned is that (from what I've read and heard said by 'experts' on podcasts) hops also aid head retention. The easiest way for a kit brewer to add these is to grab a hop teabag from your homebrew shop, make a hop tea (exactly like you would make a normal cup of tea with a tea bag - no milk and sguar though!), let it sit for a couple of minutes and add the lot to your fermenter.
> 
> This method improves hop flavour and aroma as well as head retention.
> 
> Your homebrew shop owner will be able to suggest a suitable hop for the style of beer you're making.


Mentioned (albeit breifly) in the article previously linked.  



Boagsy said:


> Nothing a rubber neck wouldn't fix.
> But seriously I think the problem lies in under-carbonation, possibly waiting longer for carbonation at a good conditioning temp.
> Perhaps revising pouring methods and glass cleansing technique may also help.
> I'd go bulk priming, I did on my second brew and have never looked back. Now I carbonate to my specific desired level and it's good for any size bottle I wanna bottle in.
> And make sure them caps are on good and tight.



Low carbonation doesn't _necessarily _effect head retention. It can, however, effect head _formation_ (particularly in bottled beers. Pouring a low carbed beer from a bottle and being able to form the head is a bit of an art form). A pint of yorkshire bitter with sfa carbonation will hold it's head all the way to the bottom of the glass (as long as there are no other factors that denegrate head formation and retention)


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## Dazza_devil (30/10/09)

I haven't really taken much notice of how much head is left on my beers as they approach the bottom of the glass but would it be normal for a head to diminish to a degree, regardless of it's size? This may depend on how the beer is drunk I guess, especially if it sloshes back into the glass after you swig it.


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## RobboMC (30/10/09)

Phonos said:


> Something else that hasn't been mentioned is that (from what I've read and heard said by 'experts' on podcasts) hops also aid head retention. The easiest way for a kit brewer to add these is to grab a hop teabag from your homebrew shop, make a hop tea (exactly like you would make a normal cup of tea with a tea bag - no milk and sguar though!), let it sit for a couple of minutes and add the lot to your fermenter.
> 
> This method improves hop flavour and aroma as well as head retention.
> 
> Your homebrew shop owner will be able to suggest a suitable hop for the style of beer you're making.



When I was starting with hops I developed this little trick,
when you empty you kit can pop a spoonful or two of hop pellets into the can
and refill with boiling water. Let this sit while you stir and fill the fermenter
and pour it in the top before adding the yeast.

It's a really simple step that needs no skill or equipment,
and improves kit beer dramatically.


To improve head 2 steps-

stop adding dextrose
stop using carb drops

My early attepts at brewing with a kg of Brew enhancer and carb drops were headless swill.

Check my little Dark Ale picture - that's a kits and bits brew, you don't need to go all extract or AG to get awesome head,
just use all malt additions.


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## Renegade (30/10/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Low carbonation doesn't _necessarily _effect head retention. It can, however, effect head _formation_ (particularly in bottled beers. Pouring a low carbed beer from a bottle and being able to form the head is a bit of an art form)



Precisely, and well worth a mention to avoid a common misconception. Earlier this year I made a partial choc porter and looking back on my notes i added 80g priming sugers to a full batch (for new readers here, I have often used twice as much sugar for carbing beer, depending on style). Head was fine, despite the intended low carbonation. 



Boagsy said:


> This may depend on how the beer is drunk I guess, especially if it sloshes back into the glass after you swig it



Eww Backwash ! The drinker's equivalent of the double dip. Remind me never to have a taste from your schooner


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## Dazza_devil (30/10/09)

Yeah Renegade you wont have to remind me to never let you have a taste of my schooner, jokin.
I don't personally backwash but I was refering to the beer that hasn't entered the orrifice returning to the bottom of the glass. Anyway the way you drink it can make a difference i'm sure.
I was of the impression that heads retention was, the amount of head diminishing = amount of head forming, please enlighten me.
Wouldn't carbonation have some effect on retention. If it was extrememly undercarbonated and you swished a head up on it would the head not just die down due to lack of carbonation?
Maybe it's the type/shape of the glasses he's using having an impact on head retention.


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## buttersd70 (30/10/09)

Boagsy....
if you take a low carbonated beer, half a glass, then tilt it away from you at a 45 degree angle, then tilt it quickly back to upright, you will see fine bubbles appear just below the head, which then move upward and replenish the head.  So the agitation occuring to the beer through the action of drinking should cause enough turbulence to replenish the head. Further to that, as the beer warms, it will release co2 more readily.....and as every beer drinker knows, the temp at the end of a glass often is considerably higher than when originally poured.

Not exactly helpful to the OP (although he may find interest in it), but everytime I hear the old furphy of low carbonated beer having poor head retention, a part of me dies inside.


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## Renegade (30/10/09)

how _dramatic_


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## Dazza_devil (30/10/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Boagsy....
> if you take a low carbonated beer, half a glass, then tilt it away from you at a 45 degree angle, then tilt it quickly back to upright, you will see fine bubbles appear just below the head, which then move upward and replenish the head.  So the agitation occuring to the beer through the action of drinking should cause enough turbulence to replenish the head. Further to that, as the beer warms, it will release co2 more readily.....and as every beer drinker knows, the temp at the end of a glass often is considerably higher than when originally poured.
> 
> Not exactly helpful to the OP (although he may find interest in it), but everytime I hear the old furphy of low carbonated beer having poor head retention, a part of me dies inside.



Ahh right, thanks Butters for clearing that up.
So the agitation caused by drinking and the warming up of the beer brings CO2 out of solution which aids in head retention. I guess you would have to have some amount of CO2 in solution to get a head in the first place or can O2 escaping from solution also form a head? 
Maybe if the OP has problems with head retention then putting a bigger head on the beer initially will make it last longer.


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## manticle (30/10/09)

What butters is saying (I think) is that a beer being fizzy or not fizzy is not an indicator of good retention. Think of a nice red ale or british brown and the lovely tight head you can get on that (excluding nitrogentated beers obviously). Low carbonation but good head retention. Various things including alcohol content, glass dirtiness, beer body, hop oils etc can affect the retention of a head. Head formation is another issue (although there are relationships) and yes you will need some C02 to be coming out of solution for either to occur.


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## Phill D (30/10/09)

Guys - your posts have been excellent - some 30 to read from. I went away from the Laptop and I think the system automatically timed out. Ive been at work all day to day.

Thats what I like about the forums - so many differnt and pertinent suggestions. Yes i started out as a kit brewer in a plastic barrell. But I will try some of the things that you have all suggested.

Dont get angry with each other guys because someone siad something about grains because i had already been reading the All Grain for 30 Bucks thread.

It was just a general question - carbonation seems Ok, glasses afre clean beer glasses, but perhaps because It gets hot in qLD I JUST THROW THEM IN THE FRIDGE because I cant wait anylonger (he he he )

Anyway - many many thanks for all the replies 

Now i have to read them all

Cheers 2beers


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## Phill D (30/10/09)

Thanks - good suggestions - I drink a bit of Amsterdam Mariner out of purpose pilsener glasses and its aok. I think its just a timing thing and maybe bulk priming instead of carb drops. Hey Im new to the game relatively speaking - so thats no problems

I appreciate all the discussions and pointers dropped in by all people - Thank You 



Troopa said:


> Wasnt Suggesting it wasnt good conversation .. i would love to suggest to the OP to go partial then AG i actually recommend that 2beers has a big read of both sections if he/she hasnt already
> But the question put forward in this sub forum was about kits and extracts and had nothing to do with grains ,steeping and boiling and the OPs level of knowledge showed that (sorry 2beers)
> 
> I think the question was a great one at that cause new ppl to home brewing relate how good their brew is to commercial by head retention and lacing( well i know i did ) apart from taste
> ...


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## Phill D (30/10/09)

Its no problem mate - not blown away. I will try one thing first and then next time try the little bit of grain suggested.

2beers - Phill




ghhb said:


> Hey ... wait a minute guys ...
> 
> Today (tonight) is 2beers first post ... and he only joined AHB at 4pm today ... gve the guy/girl a break! I notice he's logged out already ... hope we haven't blown him away with all the repartee ... let's be gentle on the new posters with genuine questions.


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## henderjo (30/10/09)

Bought some headmaster glasses the other day. Very happy - little laser etching on the bottom (inside) makes for a constantly replenishing head :icon_cheers: still need to sort your beer, but might just be what makes the difference.


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## Aus_Rider_22 (31/10/09)

henderjo said:


> Bought some headmaster glasses the other day. Very happy - little laser etching on the bottom (inside) makes for a constantly replenishing head :icon_cheers: still need to sort your beer, but might just be what makes the difference.



I see them on eBay and have been considering getting some. The local pub here uses the headmasters, too bad the beer isn't as good as at home!

I will end up getting 6 schooners I think. :icon_cheers:


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## bum (31/10/09)

I bought some Headmasters and wish I hadn't. They're nice and thick but you need to be pretty critical on the pour.


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## Aus_Rider_22 (31/10/09)

bum said:


> I bought some Headmasters and wish I hadn't. They're nice and thick but you need to be pretty critical on the pour.



Can you elaborate? Did the etching cause to much turbulence?

Cheers. :icon_cheers:


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## bum (31/10/09)

I'd make too many enemies if were to complain about getting too much head.


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## Renegade (31/10/09)

See ! 2Beers came back ! Go with the flow, brothers. We are all here to help each other, not censor the secret knowledge of making a better beer. 

The headmaster glasses really aren't the answer. They are just props that serve a purpose in a commercial setting, with commercial beer in mind. And, really, they aren't enhancing a good brew, but a bad one. 

Does Redoak use etched glasses ? No

Paddys @ Flemington ? No

Four Pines ? No

The Lord Nelson ?


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## Thunderlips (31/10/09)

As has been mentioned, for the easiest way add some dry wheat malt.
For more effort, add some grain.

Or if you want to cheat, go and buy some Headmaster glasses 

I'm using one tonight filled with a Coopers Sparkling, and it's thick and 
creamy right down to the last drop.

To see what kind of magic this glass can work I must get around to testing it on a VB.
If it can get that to hold a head it'll work on anything.


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## jdsaint (31/10/09)

Thunderlips said:


> I'm using one tonight filled with a Coopers Sparkling, and it's thick and
> creamy right down to the last drop.




Me to had coopers sparkling ale in tooheys new schooner glass keep head all the way to the bottem like a guiness,
the trick is to rinse in boiling hot water then put them back into the fridge, dont let it come in contact with soap suds, I do however if others were to use my glass's, give them a quick rinse with neo-pink put prefer the hot water method!


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## henderjo (31/10/09)

I wasn't suggesting headmaster was the solution, but rather something that might "assist" and keep 2beers brewing long enough (this time) to sort out his trouble getting head  The bubbles produced by the lasered nucleation points are tiny and there for won't "give you" a head, they will however support a correctly brewed and carbonated beer served in a clean, dry glass. If your having trouble pouring into a headmaster it might be that your carbonation levels are too high? been there done that... but I'd always much rather a highly carbed beer over a flat one regardless of [most] styles - just my taste... and my 2c.


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## Phill D (31/10/09)

Excellent guys - I will be bottling today and let you all kno what happens .............in a couple of weeks.

2beers


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## mwd (31/10/09)

Don't feed the trolls.

Start here Forum


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## bum (31/10/09)

henderjo said:


> If your having trouble pouring into a headmaster it might be that your carbonation levels are too high? been there done that



I see your point but I don't think so - I get a fine pour in other glassware. The only way to get one with the Headmasters is to tilt the shit out of the glass like a n00b.


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## henderjo (31/10/09)

bum said:


> I see your point but I don't think so - I get a fine pour in other glassware. The only way to get one with the Headmasters is to tilt the shit out of the glass like a n00b.



Which I am <_< just trying to offer something outside the square... though I don't really have issues with the glasses.


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## bum (31/10/09)

Wasn't meaning to call anyone a n00b. Was just saying that if I need to put the handbrake on when pouring in one specific glass only then the problem is most likely that glass.


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