# Dark Beers And Roast Grain Additions



## Tony (16/4/11)

I am planning on brewing a stout next weekend.

Dry stout using 1882pc west yorkie II, FMMO, a bit of crystal, flaked barley, and a mix of pale choc, roast barley and chocolate wheat.

I have been doing some thinking about the stouts i have made in the past, and while they were nice...... im never really 100% happy with the resulting roast character i get. It just seems to be a bit harsh.

My last one that i turned the mash water to milk with CaCO3 (chalk) turned out good but not perfect.

I usually just chuck all the roast grain in the mash, but i read of others adding it late, cold steeping, ect ect.

I have used the steeping method way back when i was learning pre AHB but cant really quantify any results and i dont brew enough dark beers to trial lots of methods and find out whats best. Im sure others on here are interested in this too and im sure there are those who have tried lots of methods.

Im after info on how everyone out there adds their roast malts to a dark beer, for myself and for the sake of some good brewing discussion!

fire away


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## manticle (16/4/11)

All beers up to now - straight in the mash. Never found them overly roasty but my stouts are mainly sweet stouts.

Tomorrow I'm brewing an oatmeal stout and will be trying adding all my roast grains to the mash ten minutes out from MO after having cold steeped overnight.

Time will tell.

The bonus is being able to tweak my pH as I normally would without needing any calcium carbonate.


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## Pennywise (16/4/11)

Could the harshness be coming from the higher MO/sparge temps in conjunction with the roasted malts?


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## Tony (16/4/11)

mmm harshness it probably the wrong word.

They arnt harsh....... just the roast is not quite what im after.

Im sitting here drinking guinness from a can and thinking how its not as good as it is from the tap at the local irish pub...... its sweeter from the can, but very smooth. I want the smooth roastiness i get from the guinness at the pub


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## Goofinder (17/4/11)

CaCO3 to adjust the mash pH should help a fair bit. The ANHC tastings with the adjusted and non-adjusted water showed a huge reduction in what I call harshness in the adjusted beer. I see you've already done that and noticed an improvement and I would definitely stick with that.

I don't brew too many stouts but I've got one in the fermenter at the moment and everything went into the mash with some CaCO3 to adjust. Hopefully it turns out well.


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## mje1980 (17/4/11)

I have soft water ( not sure if relevant ), but i always add dark malts at the last 15 mins. Been doing it for a few years after a fellow club member told me about it ( i think the germans do it? ), and i love the results. Guarantees no harshness for me. Not sure if its "right" but i reckon i've made 20+ dark beers this way over the last few years and i don't plan on changing it now. Way easier than stuffing with your water. I still just use gypsum and cal chl like all my other beers. More gyps for bitter beers, more cal chl for malty beers, and for most other beers, half each. 

Cheers


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## bkmad (17/4/11)

Tony said:


> mmm harshness it probably the wrong word.
> 
> They arnt harsh....... just the roast is not quite what im after.
> 
> Im sitting here drinking guinness from a can and thinking how its not as good as it is from the tap at the local irish pub...... its sweeter from the can, but very smooth. I want the smooth roastiness i get from the guinness at the pub



I've had some success with following a recipe from the "brew your own british real ale" book which uses 70% pale, 20% flaked barley and 10% roasted barley. I put the roasted barley in the mash but it came out with a really smooth roastiness. I've since read on the jims beer kit forum that this is the actual grain bill for guinness, whether thats to be believed is another matter <_< . My best guess is that the flaked barley adds enough body to balance the roastiness, preventing it seeming too harsh.


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## Tony (17/4/11)

yeah now that i think about it..... my old stout recipe was always 80% ale, 10% Flaked barley and 10% roast barley but i wasnt adjusting the water back then.

I may get myself some more flaked barley and give the 20% a run...... sounds like a plan.

Anyone else got any methods they use?


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## Brewer_010 (17/4/11)

I find the english roast grains have a carbon-like taste that I don't enjoy much, but they can be smoothed out with crystal or caramel malts (I generally only use german grains for their smoothness, nothing else I've tried comes close). Maybe instead of using JW roast you could replace it with carafa III or something like that? 

IMO Roast barley is pretty astringent without some sweeter malt to help contain it.

cheers
Barry


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## Thirsty Boy (17/4/11)

Chalk makes beer, all beer, including stouts - taste bloody awful. I tasted those ANHC beers too and just couldn't understand why people seemed to think that the one with the chalk was better, it made it taste harsh, astringent and horrible IMO.

I think you should include some flaked barley - i am sure that its a vital part of a dry stout, and i also think you should try it without any chalk at all. If you dont like it without you can always add it later. Lots of chalk in the water doen't _make_ stout taste good, its just that if you have lots of chalk in the water stout is the only beer you are able to make taste any good at all.

Of course, most people dont think that way.... They're all wrong


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (17/4/11)

Made lots of stouts, all good. Never used chalk. Have used flaked barley and/or flaked oats. 

I like the flaked whatevers to increase body, especially with extract brewing. Now I mash high to give me a thick, warming stout. that's low alcohol.

Goomba


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## bradsbrew (17/4/11)

I have always added my roast to the mash with the rest at the start. My better stouts have had a mix of roast, black and choc with at least 5% oats. I find a mash temp of 65/66 works well for a dry stout with this type of bill.

Tony do you think the nitro could be making a difference. I have found that nitro smoothes the roastiness.
I may just have to try the cold steeping overnight and last 10 additions too.

Cheers

edit= mash info


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## mje1980 (17/4/11)

Brewer_010 said:


> I find the english roast grains have a carbon-like taste that I don't enjoy much, but they can be smoothed out with crystal or caramel malts (I generally only use german grains for their smoothness, nothing else I've tried comes close). Maybe instead of using JW roast you could replace it with carafa III or something like that?
> 
> IMO Roast barley is pretty astringent without some sweeter malt to help contain it.
> 
> ...




Before i started adding my dark malts late i never brewed with dark malts because of this reason. Since adding the dark malts late, i make lots of dark beers!, usually teamed up with caramunich3.


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## felten (18/4/11)

Another thing that I've noticed with RB (and heard jamil go on about it) is that when you mill RB it shatters, and you end up with very fine bits in your finished beer that can take a while to settle out.


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## manticle (18/4/11)

Never noticed any RB bits in my porters or stouts. If it's milling too fine, just back the crush off but how are the bits finding their way into the boil and finished beer?

@TB - good to hear. I'm starting to get stuck into reading about water chemistry currently and most sources seem to recommend dropping carbonates out of the water in most circumstances. It just sounds like something best avoided to me so I'm glad to hear that idea confirmed.


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## felten (18/4/11)

For me? through the bag. For jamil? no idea, I was wondering the same thing, have heard him go on about it on several shows. Though it might have something to do with him suggesting to mill RB to flour in a coffee grinder.


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## manticle (18/4/11)

Not that I'd want to challenge old JZ particularly but I wonder what advantage will come from milling RB to a flour when you could just whack it through the regular crush.


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## outbreak (18/4/11)

I brewed an Oatmeal Stout yesturday and added my Roast Malts with 15min to go in the mash. I will update on their flavour, but being my first stout I don't really have a comparison.


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## felten (18/4/11)

manticle said:


> Not that I'd want to challenge old JZ particularly but I wonder what advantage will come from milling RB to a flour when you could just whack it through the regular crush.


agreed


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## Tony (18/4/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Chalk makes beer, all beer, including stouts - taste bloody awful. I tasted those ANHC beers too and just couldn't understand why people seemed to think that the one with the chalk was better, it made it taste harsh, astringent and horrible IMO.
> 
> I think you should include some flaked barley - i am sure that its a vital part of a dry stout, and i also think you should try it without any chalk at all. If you dont like it without you can always add it later. Lots of chalk in the water doen't _make_ stout taste good, its just that if you have lots of chalk in the water stout is the only beer you are able to make taste any good at all.
> 
> Of course, most people dont think that way.... They're all wrong



TB...... one day you and me are going to meet...... and its my shout! :icon_cheers: 



Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Made lots of stouts, all good. Never used chalk. Have used flaked barley and/or flaked oats.
> 
> I like the flaked whatevers to increase body, especially with extract brewing. Now I mash high to give me a thick, warming stout. that's low alcohol.
> 
> Goomba



I have used flaked barley a lot over the years and love the stuff. Im gunna give a larger amount a run this time round. 15 to 20% i think..... just for the hell of it.



bradsbrew said:


> I have always added my roast to the mash with the rest at the start. My better stouts have had a mix of roast, black and choc with at least 5% oats. I find a mash temp of 65/66 works well for a dry stout with this type of bill.
> 
> Tony do you think the nitro could be making a difference. I have found that nitro smoothes the roastiness.
> I may just have to try the cold steeping overnight and last 10 additions too.
> ...



Are you talking nitrogen or Nitromethane 

As far as i know...... the beer at the pub isnt carbed with nitrogen. Its actually very low carb with Co2 but they use nitrogen to serve it cause the nitrogen wont go into solution and increase the carbonation. The tap has a creamer in it that foams the low carb to make that super creamy head.

Im thinking of getting a creamer tap, and running a low pressure line into the keg of stout and using a very short piece of line from the keg to the tap so i can serve it at a keg pressure of about 30kpa..

worth a shot i recon 



felten said:


> Another thing that I've noticed with RB (and heard jamil go on about it) is that when you mill RB it shatters, and you end up with very fine bits in your finished beer that can take a while to settle out.



They would want to be smaller than 1 micron to make it past my filter. I can understand the reasoning though........ small bits of fine roast grain in the beer would add a bit of astringancy.



outbreak said:


> I brewed an Oatmeal Stout yesturday and added my Roast Malts with 15min to go in the mash. I will update on their flavour, but being my first stout I don't really have a comparison.



And thats what im going to do......... a 15 min soak once the mash is done so i dont have to add any chalk as per TB's recomendations.

Also....... i have found i have no Roast Barley but i do have 2 kilos of Weyermann Chocolate wheat........ so im gunna give this a go:

Bull Dust Stout

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.00
Anticipated OG: 1.045 Plato: 11.14
Anticipated EBC: 60.0
Anticipated IBU: 40.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.0 7.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 5
20.0 2.00 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
10.0 1.00 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1000


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.00 g. Wye Target Pellet 9.00 24.3 60 min.
40.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.30 15.8 60 min.



Yeast
-----

WYeast 1882PC


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## dmac80 (18/4/11)

Tony said:


> TB...... one day you and me are going to meet...... and its my shout! :icon_cheers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let us know if you want some roast barley mate, I have some here.

Cheers


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## Tony (18/4/11)

cheers mate.... but im gunna give the choc wheat a run.

Your selcome to drop over for a look and a Wit though.... i will let you know when im brewing.

you havnt seen the REX yet have ya


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## dmac80 (18/4/11)

Tony said:


> cheers mate.... but im gunna give the choc wheat a run.
> 
> Your selcome to drop over for a look and a Wit though.... i will let you know when im brewing.
> 
> you havnt seen the REX yet have ya




Cheers, might take you up on that


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## Tony (26/4/11)

Well just threw in the stout on short notice as the wife got called into work.

I have gone with this:

Australian Stout

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 46.00 Wort Size (L): 46.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.10
Anticipated OG: 1.064 Plato: 15.56
Anticipated EBC: 80.4
Anticipated IBU: 44.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.2 8.50 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 5
16.5 2.00 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
8.3 1.00 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1100
2.5 0.30 kg. TF Pale Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 550
2.5 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
120.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 8.00 44.7 45 min.




I have put the crystal and pale choc in the mash and will add the chocolate wheat with 10 min to go in the mash.

Gunna hop it up with some of my home grown PoR flowers..... see how thay go too.

cheers


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## Fourstar (26/4/11)

Hey Tony,

Just FYI, i was at the James Squire brewhouse in melbourne last night and they had their seasonal stout "the craic" on tap. From memeory when i had discussions with the brewer some time ago, the bulk of the roast component in that beer is roast wheat followed by roast barley. 

In short, its probably the best local example of a dry stout (at least in my opinion). Im planning on getting my hands on some of the briess Midnight Wheat soon so might give this angle a crack as the current stout i have whilst it is good, the malt profile is angled more towards a porter.

From what i observed, it seems the roast wheat gives that smooth roasted character you speak of to slightly thin the roast barley but doesnt make it overly bitter/sharp nor chocolatey like carafa does if you used it in the same way.

Cheers.


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## Tony (26/4/11)

I have used the JW Roast Wheat a lot over the years...... usually as a sub for black malt as i prefer the dry ashy roast it imparts. 

I had a friend who loved making his dunkleweizens give up brewing last year and just after i bought a kilo of Weyermann choc wheat..... he gives me another 2 kilos of it.

I gave some away and this stout has consumed another kilo of it...... and i must say....... DAMN it smells good going into the kettle. Kind of like very dark roast coffee.

I have a feeling this is going to be a nice stout


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## Peter Wadey (26/4/11)

Tony said:


> I have used the JW Roast Wheat a lot over the years...... usually as a sub for black malt as i prefer the dry ashy roast it imparts.
> 
> I had a friend who loved making his dunkleweizens give up brewing last year and just after i bought a kilo of Weyermann choc wheat..... he gives me another 2 kilos of it.
> 
> ...



G'day Tony,
This is the great thing about making your own....you can suit yourself 

While I too am happy to sub roasted wheat malt for Black (in English style stouts) , my preference is definitely for Roast Barley in a Stout.
Entirely different flavour.

Rgds,
Peter
Not brewing, but keeping out of the wet instead

Oh, PS, just noticed the topic, sorry. My dark malts go in with everything else.


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