# Minimum chlorine levels for noticeable phenol/band aid flavours?



## stuartf (15/10/16)

Does anyone have any info on what levels chlorine can start to create bamd aid flavour? Im trying to determine whether i have a problem with wild yeast or chlorine in my brew water. I'm beginning to suspect (and hope) it is the chlorine as i dont have any gushing from the bottled beer and there are no other off flavours i can detect. Looking at my local water supplier's report the level of chlorine (added as Cl gas) has roughly doubled in the last year from mean value of 6 to 10 mg/l. I thought this was still a pretty low concentration but would this be enough to cause noticable band aid flavour? The last 2 beers ive made (both pilsners) have had a strong band aid flavour. For good measure I've done a good caustic clean of my fermenters and ferm fridge but really do t want to waste another beer trying to figure out where the problem is if i can avoid it.


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## MHB (15/10/16)

Generally the flavour threshold is a fairly broad range, something like 3-40ppm. Some people are very sensitive to chlorophenols some less so, even when less than noticeable as a discrete flavour they can detract from the overall enjoyment of the beer at extremely low concentrations.
Been a couple of threads on getting rid of Chlorine and Chloramines, its pretty easy and well worth doing.
MArk


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## stuartf (15/10/16)

Hi mark, yeah ive read all the threads i could find so pretty happy i can deal with the issue if thats whats causing it. Hadnt been able to find any info on what levels could cause issues though. From the range you suggest my Cl level could be high enough and as its roughly doubled since last year it does seem likely that i am now detecting it when i couldnt before. Thanks for the info


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (16/10/16)

MHB said:


> Generally the flavour threshold is a fairly broad range, something like 3-40ppm. Some people are very sensitive to chlorophenols some less so, even when less than noticeable as a discrete flavour they can detract from the overall enjoyment of the beer at extremely low concentrations.
> Been a couple of threads on getting rid of Chlorine and Chloramines, its pretty easy and well worth doing.
> MArk


The more commonly accepted lower bound for threshold of chlorophenol in beer is ten times lower than your lowest level, 300 ng/l = 0.3 ppb, see for instance. http://www.aroxa.com/beer/beer-flavour-standard/2-6-dichlorophenol/

It is reasonably commonplace to have a 100 fold difference in threshold between the first and ninth decile of population.


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## Jack of all biers (31/10/16)

stuartf said:


> Does anyone have any info on what levels chlorine can start to create bamd aid flavour? Im trying to determine whether i have a problem with wild yeast or chlorine in my brew water. I'm beginning to suspect (and hope) it is the chlorine as i dont have any gushing from the bottled beer and there are no other off flavours i can detect. Looking at my local water supplier's report the level of chlorine (added as Cl gas) has roughly doubled in the last year from mean value of 6 to 10 mg/l. I thought this was still a pretty low concentration but would this be enough to cause noticable band aid flavour? The last 2 beers ive made (both pilsners) have had a strong band aid flavour. For good measure I've done a good caustic clean of my fermenters and ferm fridge but really do t want to waste another beer trying to figure out where the problem is if i can avoid it.


Sorry I'm late on the uptake on this thread. Are you sure your water report is 6-10 mg/L of free chlorine residual and not 0.6-1 mg/L. The NHMRC health guidelines puts the upper limit of 5 mg/L. If it is you should report your local water supplier. Also if it is that high then the chlorophenols will kick you in the face, so that may be why your brews have suddenly began to have that band aid flavour. I feel for you. My local water ranges from 2 mg/L to 0.1 mg/L with the average of 0.3 mg/L and I can sometimes detect a slight flavour if I don't treat it.


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## BKBrews (31/10/16)

I bought a grainfather and have done two tippable bathes to kick things off, which I've pretty much put down to chlorophenols from dodgey water. One was an IPA that is REAL bad and the other is a SMaSH that is bordering on drinkable.

I brewed on Saturday, with the plan to 100% determine whether the water is my issue. So I've done another Maris Otter SMaSH, just using a slightly different hop schedule as I didn't have the same hops on hand. I filled the grainfather to the brim (31 - 32L) the night before, chucked in a vitamin C tablet and then boiled it for 2 or so hours (I actually planned on just boiling for say half an hour but I went out after filling it and didn't realise that I'd left it on!). When I got home I topped it up to 31 - 32L while still hot (as some boiled off), put the lid on and left it until the next morning. When I was ready to brew I just put took water out and put it into my sparge vessel until I had my mash water amount in the GF and chucked in a tablespoon of Gypsum for good measure. This actually worked out really well because my water was already at about 45 - 50 degrees when I was ready to brew!

The SG wort definitely tastes sweeter and smoother than my previous batches (albeit a slightly lower IBU) and I actually think the fermentation looks cleaner as well. It kicked off after about 18 hours (re-hydrated dry yeast) and the krausen was a silky looking foam that slowly rose evenly. I could just be willing it to be better, but all signs so far point to a better brew. I will take a hydro reading next Saturday to see where we're at and I can't wait to taste it!

EDIT: I should also add that my first two batches were filled from the garden hose and stupid me forgot to run a few litres of water through it first and dump it - straight into the GF it went - which will have to have contributed to my off flavours. This time the GF was filled directly from the tap.


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## Jack of all biers (31/10/16)

Your Ascorbic Acid treatment and the 2 hour boil would have gotten rid of a huge proportion of residual chlorine so I would be surprise if it didn't taste better. I have always had better brews with a simple boil of the mains water before hand. Here's hoping it turns out a cracker for you. :chug:


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/10/16)

BKBrews said:


> I filled the grainfather to the brim (31 - 32L) the night before, chucked in a vitamin C tablet and then boiled it for 2 or so hours (I actually planned on just boiling for say half an hour but I went out after filling it and didn't realise that I'd left it on!). When I got home I topped it up to 31 - 32L while still hot (as some boiled off), put the lid on and left it until the next morning.


I would recommend that you add the ascorbate after boiling the water, not before. Ascorbate is moderately heat labile.


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## Jack of all biers (31/10/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I would recommend that you add the ascorbate after boiling the water, not before. Ascorbate is moderately heat labile.


plus one to above. Although if you add it before and give it a couple of hours before boiling it would also be ok, as I don't believe the reaction time for ascorbic acid is too long. The benefit of boiling after is that you denature any residual Ascorbic acid prior to adding it to the mash.


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## good4whatAlesU (31/10/16)

stuartf said:


> Does anyone have any info on what levels chlorine can start to create bamd aid flavour? Im trying to determine whether i have a problem with wild yeast or chlorine in my brew water. I'm beginning to suspect (and hope) it is the chlorine as i dont have any gushing from the bottled beer and there are no other off flavours i can detect. Looking at my local water supplier's report the level of chlorine (added as Cl gas) has roughly doubled in the last year from mean value of 6 to 10 mg/l. I thought this was still a pretty low concentration but would this be enough to cause noticable band aid flavour? The last 2 beers ive made (both pilsners) have had a strong band aid flavour. For good measure I've done a good caustic clean of my fermenters and ferm fridge but really do t want to waste another beer trying to figure out where the problem is if i can avoid it.


We've got you covered there, 13 mg/L up in Ballina (13ppm). Currently in the process of reading existing threads to ameliorate this problem.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/10/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> The benefit of boiling after is that you denature any residual Ascorbic acid prior to adding it to the mash.


Yes, but....

If ascobate residues are going to be a problem, it's the denatured resultant of breakdown (dehydroascorbic acid) that will cause the problem.


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## BKBrews (31/10/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I would recommend that you add the ascorbate after boiling the water, not before. Ascorbate is moderately heat labile.


Thanks for that. Considering I chucked the vit c tablet in prior to the boil, what issues could I potentially encounter? Keeping in mind, once the boil was switched off (around 9pm), it sat there until 11am the next day when I commenced the mash in.


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## Jack of all biers (31/10/16)

Thanks for pointing that out. From my understanding after researching this, that this would be the case though no matter when the ascorbic acid is denatured right? So boiling/heating it before or after would still result in dehydroascorbic acid (DHA) ending up in the mash, then the wort and in the final beer. This would then lead to the potential for DHA to create Hydrogen peroxide that would then release oxygen therefore oxidizing the beer. I got that from this book (page 236). 

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=0os_gIvG_ccC&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=problems+with+dehydroascorbic+acid+in+beer&source=bl&ots=W3yMmYWZoq&sig=g1ke-6GWwnMl2ERVqNiC2ZC5rN8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinpbu07oTQAhWEGpQKHfQ7CdYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=problems%20with%20dehydroascorbic%20acid%20in%20beer&f=false 

So it may not be such a brilliant idea using Ascorbic acid to remove chlorine at all?


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## BKBrews (31/10/16)

Tell me it isn't so. My confidence can't take a 3rd failed brew in a row.

EDIT: Is there not a chance that the created oxygen would be taken up by the yeast?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/10/16)

BKBrews said:


> Thanks for that. Considering I chucked the vit c tablet in prior to the boil, what issues could I potentially encounter?


Simply that you are relying on residual heat to drive off the chlorine in the make up water, whereas if you add the ascorbic after boiling it will mop up any remaining chlorine.



Jack of all biers said:


> Thanks for pointing that out. From my understanding after researching this, that this would be the case though no matter when the ascorbic acid is denatured right?


Yes, but in practice DHAA does not appear to be a problem when small amounts of it are present in the water used for brewing.

I presume* that this is because it reacts with the organics present in the boil and has no discernable effect. I use about 15 mg/l ascorbic acid to treat Melbourne water after having a couple of brews that had a faint edge of an aroma that could have been a chlorophenol. IMO the beers made after I started adding the ascorbate are better than those made before. My son, who seems to share my ridiculous level of sensitivity** to phenols of all kinds, agrees


*Caveat: I have not done enough research to find any support for, or evidence against, this idea.

** I once spent a day scanning wine samples from an export load of casks that had been rejected for phenol taints. Several (Swedish) customers had complained but none of the wnemakers from the company involved could detect the problem. It turned out to be a rare halophenol that had diffused into the packaged wine from the floor of the container.

Weirdly, I could by tell by blind tasting which level each sample was from. The cue I used was how much they reminded me of my first wife when she came home from operating theatre.


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## BKBrews (31/10/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Simply that you are relying on residual heat to drive off the chlorine in the make up water, whereas if you add the ascorbic after boiling it will mop up any remaining chlorine.
> 
> 
> Yes, but in practice DHAA does not appear to be a problem when small amounts of it are present in the water used for brewing.
> ...


OK cool. So realistically when should I put it in? The water was still at about 45-50 degrees over 12 hours later (sitting in the GF with the lid on). And do I need to be careful about how much I use? I put a full 500mg vit c tablet in.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/10/16)

A 500 mg tablet for 30 odd litres of water is very similar to the levels I'm using (I said 15 mg/l above, it's actually around 20).

I add mine with the water amelioration salts, all the evidence is that the reaction between chlorine / chloramines and ascorbate is very fast.


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## BKBrews (2/11/16)

Another quick question - do I really need to be careful with the water I use to make my sanitising solution as well? I use a phosphoric acid no rinse sanitiser from national homebrew - is this likely to neutralise any of the chlorine present? Do I even need to really worry considering it will mainly only be used to rinse kegs and bottles post fermentation? I sanitised my fermenter using the water I had boiled and added ascorbic acid too, so not worried about pre-fermentation here.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/11/16)

In order:

I don't think so.

No.

I don't think so.


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## Jack of all biers (2/11/16)

No. No need to worry as there would only be miniscule amounts of chlorine in the sanitizer solution and if there is residual amounts of sanitizer on your fermenter/equipment when it contacts your brew then it would be the residual of miniscule.... If your really worried about it you could take your sanitizer water from your de-chlorinated brew water.


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## BKBrews (2/11/16)

> In order:
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> ...


Thanks - didn't think so. I'm learning - I'd guess I don't need to worry because the chlorophenols are produced by the active yeast and not post ferm....


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## BKBrews (2/11/16)

> No. No need to worry as there would only be miniscule amounts of chlorine in the sanitizer solution and if there is residual amounts of sanitizer on your fermenter/equipment when it contacts your brew then it would be the residual of miniscule.... If your really worried about it you could take your sanitizer water from your de-chlorinated brew water.


Been doing that for my pre-fermentation sanitiser solution - was really only concerned about post fermentation when I've used all of that de-chlorinated brew water weeks prior. All good though, didn't think it would be an issue and sounds like it isn't  Just paranoid now!


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## MHB (2/11/16)

BKBrews said:


> Thanks - didn't think so. I'm learning - I'd guess I don't need to worry because the chlorophenols are produced by the active yeast and not post ferm....


I would be very worried about that assumption, the Phenols that are getting Chlorinated are mostly extracted from the husks.
Note the s on the end of the phenols - there are lots of different phenols, tannins, polyphenols flavonoids... that are mostly extracted during mashing. Some also come from hops many of these are alcohols (have an -OH group) and can be halogenated.

Treat your water before mashing in, I would choose Metabisulphite over Vitamin C, I think it is going to be a much better and faster scavenger of Cl and am much less concerned about the effects of its breakdown products and the effect of any left over.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/11/16)

Mark, do you have any references for polyphenols being involved in chlorination reactions in wort or beer leading to flavour active compounds?


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## Jack of all biers (2/11/16)

BK, have a look at this site for a few tips and tricks. It's not the be all and end all, but you could do a lot less researched than Martin's knowledge on the matter. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge I've read elsewhere the 1mg/L dosage rate for chloramine levels of 1 mg/L and Martin advocates 1.7 mg/L to remove up to 3 mg/L chloramine. This is well below your 500mg tablet dosage or what Lyrebird uses. This is probably why I was of the belief that adding it before the boil or after wouldn't matter, because I add 1 mg/L (my highest residual chlorine level is less than 2 mg/L). 

_"Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal. As indicated in the compound's name, this is an acid and it does reduce water pH if unreacted with a chlorine compound. In distilled water, it can produce a pH as low as 3.0. It is sometimes used in municipal water treatment, however it's pH reduction effect and higher cost can make it less desirable than metabisulfite addition. Ascorbic acid is added at a rate of 1.7 milligrams per liter (~6.4 milligrams per gallon) to remove up to 3 milligrams per liter of chloramine. The reaction equation for ascorbic acid and chloramine produces ammonium (NH4), chloride, and dehydroascorbic acid. Since the dosing is very low, the resulting concentrations are not a concern. Be aware that ammonium is a yeast nutrient and is not a problem in brewing water. The reaction is shown below:_
_ ascorbic acid (C6H8O6) + monochloramine (NH2Cl) --> NH4+ + Cl- + C6H6O6_
_A similar dosage will also remove chlorine (OCl-) from water. The reaction produces water, chloride, and dehydroascorbic acid._
_ ascorbic acid (C6H8O6) + hypochlorite (OCl-) --> H2O + Cl- + C6H6O6"_


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/11/16)

Ascorbic acid MW = 176 g/mol, NH2Cl MW = 51 g/mol, stoichiometry as stated is 1: 1, therefore 176 / 51 ~ 3.5 mg/l ascorbic reacts with 1 mg /l of chloramine.

It looks to me like someone has made an arithmetical error in your reference, 1.7 mg/l ascorbic would be the required addition rate for 0.5 mg/l chloramine, not 3 mg/l.

Perhaps Martin can comment.


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## BKBrews (2/11/16)

Haven't read anything there that alarms me. Will see how this batch turns out anyway. 5 days in and it definitely has a more persistent Krause than I have previously had with us-05, so interesting to read about the ammonium.

Ps the tabs I have are 300mg ascorbic acid and 227mg sodium ascorbate.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/11/16)

300mg ascorbic + 227 mg sodium ascorbate is equivalent to 500 mg ascorbic, it will just have a higher pH when dissolved.

XXX-ic acids become XXX-ate anions when dissolved, XXX-ous acids become XXX-ite anions etc.


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## Jack of all biers (2/11/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Mark, do you have any references for polyphenols being involved in chlorination reactions in wort or beer leading to flavour active compounds?


The Bru'n water site I linked above states that chlorine can turn into hypochlorite which bond with 'organic compounds in the wort' to form chlorophenols. Also Palmer states that chlorine compounds can combine with phenols to form chlorophenol. Interestingly though the Complete Beer Fault (Thomas Barnes) guide states that the chlorine compounds react with alcohol to form chlorophenols. Not sure who is right, but page 85 of this book https://books.google.com.au/booksid=mBnKIRVt4JIC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=formation+of+chlorophenol&source=bl&ots=SiTm3CZk2u&sig=T6Xm71IwTV4wf_w2GaZdLrwYngI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ8ffQ6onQAhUHi5QKHeOTC_cQ6AEITzAG#v=onepage&q=formation%20of%20chlorophenol&f=false suggests that chlorine bonds with phenols to form the taste and odor forming chlorophenols. Also page 495 of this book https://books.google.com.au/books?id=0os_gIvG_ccC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=formation+of+chlorophenol+in+beer&source=bl&ots=W3yNd3X_rn&sig=NdcenslsCGMciVGrgBJmQCwe4xo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4qbX064nQAhVDOJQKHU1mBWsQ6AEIbjAQ#v=onepage&q=formation%20of%20chlorophenol%20in%20beer&f=false suggests _"selective absorbtion of polyphenols from beer reacted with chlorinated detergents to form chlorophenols" _although it sites a study that reports using chlorine dioxide does not form chlorophenols when in contact with beer (when used to sanitize equipment of brewery sized equipment) . Of that fact I am skeptical. 

EDIT - I can't get that second link to go on as a link sorry. Tried multiple times, but it will have to be copy and pasted. 

View attachment Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/11/16)

I'm asking about polyphenols, not phenols. The formation pathway from phenols is well understood but I can find nothing on formation from polyphenols; I've checked through Priest, Kunze and Briggs, no mentions in any of them I can find. I was hoping Mark had a literature reference.

BTW the thing about ClO2 is quite believable. It's widely used in pulp bleaching specifically to avoid forming organochlorides from chlorine bleaching.


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## Jack of all biers (2/11/16)

Yes and if you read my post again you will find one of the books I quoted states polyphenols as opposed to phenols. I am pointing out that out of a range of sources there seems to be different versions of the origins of chlorophenols in beer.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/11/16)

I read your post, most of it concerned phenols not polyphenols, so it seemed to me that you had not understood mine. My apologies if this was incorrect.

BTW the googbooks reference is unavailable, that seems to be their intent.


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## Matplat (3/11/16)

I just bought one of these to deal with any potential chlorine issues.

Seems simpler than worrying about pre-boiling, or other additions to remove chlorine.

I have been using sodium metabisulphite up until now, but without having confirmed chlorine levels in the water, it's always a bit of a guess as to how much is required.


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## altone (3/11/16)

Matplat said:


> I just bought one of these to deal with any potential chlorine issues.
> 
> Seems simpler than worrying about pre-boiling, or other additions to remove chlorine.
> 
> I have been using sodium metabisulphite up until now, but without having confirmed chlorine levels in the water, it's always a bit of a guess as to how much is required.


These work nicely so long as you maintain a slow flow and replace well before the suggested lifespan.
They work to remove chlorine and chloramine.

I always draw my water the day before a brew to allow most of the chlorine to disperse - works quite well
My local water is only chlorine treated.
If your local water board use chloramine this will not work and you need to either filter or treat your water to remove/neutralise it.

I keep tropical fish and have also in the past used their "water ager" to remove chloramine.
I think the active ingredient is sodium thiosulphate and I only use a few drops.

Hopefully the chemists here will let us all know if this is bad or good.
I assumed if the very fragile fish can handle it then I can too.


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## MHB (3/11/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Mark, do you have any references for polyphenols being involved in chlorination reactions in wort or beer leading to flavour active compounds?


Doing a course this week and next, 10 hours per day and am just home.
Had a bit of a quick look, in short every commercial reference I could find only talks about "Chlorophenols" as a group whether mono or poly cyclic phenols. There are just so many possible ways to combine Cl and Phenols and they all suck - they are avoided as a class.

Fix, Malting and Brewing Science and even the BJCP ascribe the formation of chlorophenols to reactions between Cl and Phenols (which have an alcohol group) The consensus appears to be that these reactions happen very easily and at "mild conditions" and that the remedial steps are to:
1/ remove Cl before it enters the wort stream i.e. before you mash in
2/ minimise the available phenols by proper milling, not over sparging, proper water chemistry... all the usual suspects.

Basically no professional brewer would ever try to make beer with chlorinated water, whether you use carbon filters, RoMo, Metabisulphite, Ascorbic Acid (not the best choice on its own, perhaps) or any of many options - getting rid of the Cl is a good idea.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (3/11/16)

My question arose because phenols are unusually active WRT electrophilic substitution due to the electronegativity of the hydroxyl disturbing the aromatic stabilisation of the benzene ring to which it is appended. None of the common flavonoids (aka polyphenols) in beer have a hydroxyl group attached to an aromatic ring, so they are not as reactive. I was surprised to see your inclusion of polyphenols as I have not seen any reference to chlorinated polyphenols in the literature, I thought you might have a reference.

The (minimal) research I have done indicates that flavonoids are quite resistant to chlorination.


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## Kev R (3/11/16)

With the life of carbon filters is time a factor in their effective life,or only the volume of water run through them?

Kev


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## good4whatAlesU (3/11/16)

Both the volume and the quality of water run through (amount of contaminants).


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## BKBrews (3/11/16)

Considering sodium metabisulphite is used as a sanitiser, I'm assuming you really don't want to use too much? What would be the recommended amount to use in ~32L of water? It's less than $10 per kg at my LHBS.

Do you assume there's up to 5mg/L and use an amount based on this?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/11/16)

I proceed on the assumption that a slight excess of SO2 (or in my case ascorbic) will do far less harm than underdosing, so I add enough to neutralise 6 mg/l.

With SO2 the reaction product is sulphate anion, this will raise the sulphate level by about 10 ppm. If your water chemistry is precise enough for this to make a difference you should take it into account.

As stated previously, I don't believe the breakdown product from ascorbic addition (DHAA) survives the boil but I am all ears if anyone has a reference that shows otherwise*

I own both a reverse osmosis machine and a full commercial spec carbon filter and haven't bothered using either for brewing at small scale. My problem with using either is that I don't brew enough to justify using it full time so it would need to be broken down and the cartridge stored until next time.





* Reference means a literature reference, not Palmer or a home brewer's website.


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## BKBrews (4/11/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I proceed on the assumption that a slight excess of SO2 (or in my case ascorbic) will do far less harm than underdosing, so I add enough to neutralise 6 mg/l.
> 
> With SO2 the reaction product is sulphate anion, this will raise the sulphate level by about 10 ppm. If your water chemistry is precise enough for this to make a difference you should take it into account.
> 
> ...


I'm a little confused.... didn't you say to add the ascorbic after I'd boiled my water because something happens? If the byproduct of ascorbic (DHAA) doesn't survive the boil, why does it matter when it goes in?

Sorry for all of the questions - just want to make sure I'm clear so I can lockdown a process. Lots of brews in the pipeline and I don't want anymore bad batches!


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/11/16)

I meant the wort boil, sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## BKBrews (4/11/16)

> I meant the wort boil, sorry if that wasn't clear.


So, the DHAA won't survive the wort boil? Why would it survive the water treatment boil?

So my brew day plan will be:

1. Fill grainfather with ~32L water
2. Boil for 1 hour with lid on (5cm hole in lid to vent)
3. Turn off boil and allow to sit overnight
4. 2 hours before mash-in, add 500mg Vit C tablet, stir until dissolved (temp could be anywhere from 20 - 50 during this time)
5. Brew as normal.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/11/16)

DHAA is the breakdown product of ascorbic acid and is fairly readily hydrolysed (much more readily than ascorbic).

I don't think I said anything about DHAA surviving the water boil.


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## BKBrews (4/11/16)

OK I think I just misread a few of those earlier posts. I thought it was implied that DHAA was produced by ascorbic acid that had been heated.... Will try the above schedule next time and see if I notice any differences between before or after boil addition.


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## Jack of all biers (4/11/16)

No, Lyrebird did not imply that DHAA would be produced when ascorbic acid was heated, but I don't think you did misread the earlier posts. It was implied that there would be a benefit from adding the ascorbic acid after an initial boil of the water as opposed to before it. Given the more recent statement that DHAA is fairly readily hydrolysed then can it be explained why this could not occur in a boil of the water alone? This did confuse me at the time as I was of the understanding from the research I had done, that indicated the time ascorbic acid took to react with chloramines was about 4-8 minutes. Given bringing that amount of water to boil would take longer than that. For the record I don't bother boiling the water now, but before the mash it is heated to initial infusion temps.

Lyrebird, just curious. Why is Palmer not suitable literature? Given he has written a few well researched books on brewing, water etc...? Are books not literature? For that matter why are brewing sites written by the likes of Martin Brungard also not suitable (or have I misread you)?


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## good4whatAlesU (4/11/16)

Peer review.


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## Jack of all biers (4/11/16)

Hang on, is this a scientific review board or a home brew forum?


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## good4whatAlesU (4/11/16)

Home brew. But you asked.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/11/16)

My main reason for glossing over the degradation of ascorbic was that IMO it just confuses the issue and there's enough confusion in this thread already.

Here's a potted summary which I hope will reduce confusion:

If you are going to both boil the water and add ascorbic, do it in that order. Boiling an ascorbic solution just reduces its efficacy.

Ascorbic acid in solution in the presence of oxidising agents such as chlorine or chloramine will be oxidised by those agents to dehydroascorbic acid (DHAA). This will happen very rapidly.

If the solution also has dissolved oxygen, this wil also oxidise the ascorbic but this will be slower, so if there's enough ascorbic to reduce a given level of chlorine or chloramine they will react first.

If the solution is then heated, any unreacted ascorbic will be hydrolysed but this will proceed slowly.

Meanwhile, the DHAA formed from the reactions with oxidising agents and oxygen will also be hydrolysed and this will occur much more rapidly.

I hope that is reasonably clear.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> Lyrebird, just curious. Why is Palmer not suitable literature? Given he has written a few well researched books on brewing, water etc...? Are books not literature? For that matter why are brewing sites written by the likes of Martin Brungard also not suitable (or have I misread you)?


I didn't say Palmer wasn't literature.

I asked for references that might show that what I believed based on my understanding of the chemistry was wrong.

If Palmer stated such a thing, I would just assume that he was wrong.

If Martin Brungard stated such a thing I would sit up and take notice and ask for clarification.

If a peer reviewed article by a professional chemist stated such a thing, I would busy myself working out why I had been mistaken.


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## Jack of all biers (6/11/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Peer review.





good4whatAlesU said:


> Home brew. But you asked.


I think you need to look up the difference in definition between literature and scientific literature. Given that literature references was requested my question was valid. Maybe I am being a smart arse, but I don't understand some of the snobbery that goes on around here. Seriously, if one goes back to MHB's post (#23) where he emphasis's the S in phenols and jump to mine, all I was doing was pointing that most of the literature sources I could find also used this generic term, except one that stated polyphenols (also vague, but it was referenced to a study, albeit one that a quick internet search can't find, but a referenced source) and another that stated that alcohol bonded with chlorine to form chlorophenols (yes I understand that there is a group of aromatic alcohols that are made up of phenols). Martin Brungard's reference stated only organic compounds which is most unhelpful. For the record, I was not trying to answer Lyrebirds question or educate him with my post, but just add a voice stating that the available literature was not clear on the matter.

I don't believe shutting people down because we don't personally believe they fit a certain mold is the way to go on a forum. When that happens, we may not receive input from those that may have something to add that we hadn't thought about.

Lyrebird, thanks for clarifying what you meant about boiling and ascorbic acid. It is logical and makes sense to me. Martin did state that chlorine reacts with organic compounds in the link I posted (#25) so hopefully he sees this thread and can have some input if he knows which of the multitude of phenols/polyphenols do or don't react to form chlorophenols.


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## MHB (6/11/16)

It's all pretty moot, exactly what reacts with what and when.
If you have Chlorine in you water you may get objectionable Chlorophenols, if you don't have Chlorine in your water you wont!
Its cheap and pretty easy to get rid of so do it, simples really.

Mark


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## good4whatAlesU (6/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> I think you need to look up the difference in definition between literature and scientific literature.


Was not meaning to cause offence (sorry if I did). I think Lyrebird is genuinely interested in the science behind the topic and as such, would be looking at peer reviewed scientific work to examine methods, results, stats and conclusions. Fair enough.

As MHB says, at the end of the day all most of us want is to remove the chlorine from our water so we have better tasting beer. Amen to that.

Happy brewing.


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## BKBrews (6/11/16)

Well, took my first hydro sample after 8 days fermenting AND *drum roll*.......

Crisis over. Tastes great, all of the weird water flavours are gone and I think we're back on track. Woes are over.

1.046 down to 1.009 after 8 days. Will dry hop in the morning and keg next Saturday morning.


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## manticle (6/11/16)

Good


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## good4whatAlesU (8/11/16)

Had no vitamin C in the house, so last night I threw a Barocca in (half in mash water, half in Sparge water). 

This could be interesting


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## BKBrews (8/11/16)

> Had no vitamin C in the house, so last night I threw a Barocca in (half in mash water, half in Sparge water).
> 
> This could be interesting


It has 500mg Vitamin C, so should do the trick? I have no idea whether any of the other vitamins react with anything though - this thread has made it quite clear to me that I know absolutely nothing about chemistry


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## rude (9/11/16)

> Well, took my first hydro sample after 8 days fermenting AND *drum roll*.......
> 
> Crisis over. Tastes great, all of the weird water flavours are gone and I think we're back on track. Woes are over.
> 
> ...


wow %80 attenuation was that us05 yeast ?

I use to use potassium metabisulfite for my tap water to rid chlorine

But happy with my R/O set up now except my attenuation has taken a hit
low %70 ies using us05 & nutrients

Just doesnt get as low 1013 1014 og 1050 mashing at 66c for Pale Ale 100g of crystal 500g of munich
the rest base malt

Anyway good thread lads


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## fungrel (9/11/16)

I use a RO filter, but still use metabisulfite to ensure that bacteria levels are kept in check in my cubes etc.


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## rude (9/11/16)

Thanks for that Fungrel I cube as well

How does it do that mate ?

I thought the boil of the wort & cleaning, sanitation of the cube before transfer took care of that 

Cheers in advanced Rude


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## BKBrews (9/11/16)

rude said:


> wow %80 attenuation was that us05 yeast ?
> 
> I use to use potassium metabisulfite for my tap water to rid chlorine
> 
> ...


Yep - US-05 rehydrated and pitched/fermented at 18 degrees. I used 1.75 packs which I had in the fridge and were actually quite old, so happy that it got down. 

Why would using R/O water affect attenuation? I would have thought treated water would be far better for yeast health.


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## rude (10/11/16)

it takes nearly everything out so nutrient is the way I have gone for yeast health

The other thread that has gone mad 02 ing might help me also

I rehydrate as well 2 x pkts 23 litres 1050


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## Jack of all biers (13/11/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Had no vitamin C in the house, so last night I threw a Barocca in (half in mash water, half in Sparge water).
> 
> This could be interesting





BKBrews said:


> It has 500mg Vitamin C, so should do the trick? I have no idea whether any of the other vitamins react with anything though - this thread has made it quite clear to me that I know absolutely nothing about chemistry


I know this was a one off, but it got me thinking, so I did a little research.

Other than the Vitamin C which has already been covered, Berocca tablets contain small amounts of Zinc (~10 mg) and the Vitamin B's which are mostly heat stable (not B5 - Pantothenic acid) so aren't denatured by heating the strike water before adding to the mash. Fortunately both Zinc and B vitamins are good as co-factors or co-enzymes for enzymes, which will help your mash and yeast along. It also contains Calcium (~100 mg), Magnesium (~100 mg) and Sodium (~274 mg) that will need to be taken into account with your water profile. The Zinc will also need to be taken into account if you make additions.

However.....

Some of the things to be aware of with adding Berocca tablets to your water, would be the unknown amounts of Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate (bicarb of soda) and Sodium Carbonate (the ingredients that make them fizz). Obviously these would need to be taken into account in your water profile and I'd assume make up a large part of the tablets contents so you would need to take the carbonate levels in your water into account (not so much of an issue if you have low carbonate levels in your water, but if you have hard water then adding more will not help your mash pH). Also adding carbonates to your water are Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate (likely in smaller amounts). Also there is an anti-foaming agent in there to stop the liquid you place the tablet in from foaming over (Polysorbate 60 - polyoxyethylene (20) sorbitan monostearate) [It's a non-ionic surfactant and therefore the least toxic of surfactants. e.g. Polysorbate 80 is in most ice cream] . The amount in the tablet is unpublished, but if your brew volume was high and not a small batch it would probably be diluted enough not to effect the end product. Most emulsifiers are denatured when heated above 70C anyway, so the wort boil would likely finish it off.

So I guess positives and negatives. Food for thought for anyone who wants to add one to their water in the future though.

http://johnemsley.com/articles/wired/berocca.html 
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-berocca 
http://www.berocca.com.au/faqs/berocca-performance/
http://www.slideshare.net/arijabuhaniyeh/pharmaceutics-emulsions


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## mabrungard (13/11/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Ascorbic acid MW = 176 g/mol, NH2Cl MW = 51 g/mol, stoichiometry as stated is 1: 1, therefore 176 / 51 ~ 3.5 mg/l ascorbic reacts with 1 mg /l of chloramine.
> 
> It looks to me like someone has made an arithmetical error in your reference, 1.7 mg/l ascorbic would be the required addition rate for 0.5 mg/l chloramine, not 3 mg/l.
> 
> Perhaps Martin can comment.


That is a good catch. That 1.7mg/l ascorbic addition was taken from a reference by Davis, Barrett, and McGuire (1985) which was published in the American Water Works Association. It referred to a dialysis solution, but stated that the dose would remove up to 3 mg/l chloramines. As pointed out by stoichiometry, that addition does not appear to be sufficient to remove that level of disinfectant.

Further research into ascorbic acid dosage indicates that a dosage of about 2.5 parts ascorbic acid per part of chlorine is typically sufficient. However, it appears that this dosage is based on chlorine gas. That may not be correct since chlorine gas dissociates to hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid when combined with water. Therefore, the stoichiometric dose of about 3.5 parts ascorbic acid per part hypochlorite or monochloramine is about right.

The only question is if the reported free or total 'chlorine' content produced by lab or field testing is reporting the result as 'chlorine gas' or as 'hypochlorite or chloramines'? Review of Hach's website does show that when their testing equipment or methods are used, the resulting free or total chlorine content is reported in terms of chlorine gas (Cl2). Therefore, it appears that the dosage should be about 2.5 parts ascorbic acid per part chlorine. 

Sorry for the confusion. The information on ascorbic acid use in the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website has been revised.

Thanks for catching that!


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## BKBrews (13/11/16)

So I brewed again yesterday and reversed my process, I boiled the water the night before for 1 hour, switched off, topped back up to 32L - 33L and left overnight. The next morning I added my vit c tablet, about 1 hour prior to brewing. Now, again, the water was still 50 degrees when I added it. Would this sort of heat render it useless? I guess we'll find out. This was my first beer with water chemistry manipulation as well, so I added 8g CaSO4, 5g CaCI2 and 3g MgSO4.

My first beer using this new method is now on tap and tasting delicious. Chalk and cheese.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/11/16)

mabrungard said:


> That is a good catch.
> 
> The information on ascorbic acid use in the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website has been revised.


No problems.

Love your work, I'm chuffed that I got to add a tiny bit to it.


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## BKBrews (16/11/16)

They've just installed a reverse osmosis water supply at the grocery store I go to. Going to give it a try next time. $4 per 15L, so I will take a 30L fermenter and fill it to the brim.


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## good4whatAlesU (16/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> I know this was a one off, but it got me thinking, so I did a little research.
> 
> Other than the Vitamin C which has already been covered, Berocca tablets contain small amounts of Zinc (~10 mg) and the Vitamin B's which are mostly heat stable (not B5 - Pantothenic acid) so aren't denatured by heating the strike water before adding to the mash. Fortunately both Zinc and B vitamins are good as co-factors or co-enzymes for enzymes, which will help your mash and yeast along. It also contains Calcium (~100 mg), Magnesium (~100 mg) and Sodium (~274 mg) that will need to be taken into account with your water profile. The Zinc will also need to be taken into account if you make additions.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's very interesting, as you say some positives and maybe some negatives.

The fermentation was very strong so I'm hopeful of a great beer. Will report back in a few weeks on how it goes.


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## good4whatAlesU (3/12/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> I know this was a one off, but it got me thinking, so I did a little research.
> 
> Other than the Vitamin C which has already been covered, Berocca tablets contain small amounts of Zinc (~10 mg) and the Vitamin B's which are mostly heat stable (not B5 - Pantothenic acid) so aren't denatured by heating the strike water before adding to the mash. Fortunately both Zinc and B vitamins are good as co-factors or co-enzymes for enzymes, which will help your mash and yeast along. It also contains Calcium (~100 mg), Magnesium (~100 mg) and Sodium (~274 mg) that will need to be taken into account with your water profile. The Zinc will also need to be taken into account if you make additions.
> 
> ...


Reporting back: The barocca beer turned out quite okay.
A smash with pilsner malt and wakatu - the wakatu is quite limey/apple tasting and a bit mild, probably wanted a little something extra .. but it's a light tasting inoffensive beer. Very drinkable won't last long, although if I'm patient it may improve with a couple weeks ageing.


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## Brewno Marz (13/6/17)

I would be grateful for advice on removing chloramine from the Brisbane tap water I use for brewing.

UQQ reports use of both chloramine and chlorine for disinfection. For water delivered in SEQ, UQQ states 95th percentile levels of:

Free chlorine: <0.1 mg/L
Total chlorine: 2.1 mg/L
Maximum levels are reported as 2.2 mg/L (free) and 3.1 mg/L (total).

Free chlorine is not an issue - I can test for it (and have tested for it) and I tend to fill my HLT the day before and leave it uncovered, which should allow most residual free chlorine to dissipate.

So, based on this data and negligible free chlorine in the water:

Could the amount of chloramines result in perceptible off flavours (chlorphenols?)? 
Should I just treat the water anyway?
What level of chloramine should be assumed for treatment? Would the 95th percentile level of 2.1 mg/L be reasonable?
For removal of the chloramine what amount should be used (mg per litre of tap water, based on your answer to question 3) for:
ascorbic acid; 
sodium metabisulphite?

Thanks


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## Rocker1986 (13/6/17)

I also use Brisbane tap water for all batches, other than pilsners where I distill it first, and I haven't had any problems with chloramines or chlorine affecting the flavour of my beers. They can affect it though I'm not sure at what level they would have to be at for this to happen. I have also read that some people can't taste chlorophenols even if they are present in the beer. 

That said, earlier this year I decided to grab some potassium metabisulphite to remove chlorine/chloramines from the strike water, more as a preventative measure than anything else. The instructed rate works out at about 0.5 - 1g per 100 litres of water to be treated, or 5-10mg per litre. I don't really measure it though, I just throw in a pinch that's probably somewhere around half a gram for my 32 or 36 litres of strike water. The SO2 produced gets boiled off anyway.


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## Brewno Marz (13/6/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> I also use Brisbane tap water for all batches, other than pilsners where I distill it first, and I haven't had any problems with chloramines or chlorine affecting the flavour of my beers.
> 
> That said, earlier this year I decided to grab some potassium metabisulphite to remove chlorine/chloramines from the strike water, more as a preventative measure than anything./QUOTE]



Thanks for the input. Sounds like I am at the same place you were a few months ago.

I'll grab some absorbic acid powder from local chemist and add 375mg (i.e three pinches) to the 75 litres of water in the HLT. Sounds close enough to the 2.5 parts absorbic to 1 part chloramine mentioned above.


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## stuartf (14/6/17)

Brewno Marz said:


> Thanks for the input. Sounds like I am at the same place you were a few months ago.
> 
> I'll grab some absorbic acid powder from local chemist and add 375mg (i.e three pinches) to the 75 litres of water in the HLT. Sounds close enough to the 2.5 parts absorbic to 1 part chloramine mentioned above.


I ended up getting an activated charcoal filter from the big green shed (the ones they use to filter water at caravan sites). This has removed my chlorine issues totally and is pretty easy too.


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## Rocker1986 (14/6/17)

At my current rate of use of the potassium metabisulphite for treating water, the 1kg bag I bought for 10 bucks will last me literally about 100 years. Is there a certain period it lasts before it goes inactive or something or does it just stay good forever?


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