# Irish Red Ale - Is There Really Such A Thing?



## MAH (19/4/05)

I keep seeing references to Irish Red Ale, but isn't this just a wanky title the Yanks have given to what is essentially a very lightly bittered Bitter that's usually served with nitrogen? 

Does Ireland really have their own beer style? I can see that Scottish ales are distinct from Bitters, it uses similar malts, but the mashing, hoping and in particular fermentation regimes are all quite different.

What is so distinctive about a so called Irish Red Ale? Is it the grain? Is it the mashing technique? Is it the hoping? Is it the fermentation? To me it looks like it's just the serving with nitro and it's Irish sounding name like Kilkenny that make it somehow distinct?

Anyone have some historical account of how it came to be?

Cheers
MAH


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## jgriffin (19/4/05)

I'm not an expert enough to comment, but did some searching and found some interesting articles on the matter almost straight away.

http://byo.com/mrwizard/1309.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/irlbrew.htm


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## kook (19/4/05)

MAH said:


> I keep seeing references to Irish Red Ale, but isn't this just a wanky title the Yanks have given to what is essentially a very lightly bittered Bitter that's usually served with nitrogen?
> 
> Does Ireland really have their own beer style? I can see that Scottish ales are distinct from Bitters, it uses similar malts, but the mashing, hoping and in particular fermentation regimes are all quite different.
> 
> ...



Michael Jackson. Most style guidelines come from his work during the 70's.

IMO its the same with the Scottish ales.

I personally cant understand the destinction between a bitter and a "scottish heavy 70/-". There may be some perceived peat/smokey flavours in a couple but I've had this in bitters too. As for the level of hopping, or fermentation technique its just bull. Many bitters over here are low in IBU. And many so called "scottish ales" are fermented for the same period of time using the same methods as a bitter.

Maybe its just me, but I'd love to sit down and have a blind cask tasting of say 10 bitters and a couple "scottish ales" like Belhaven. It'd be interesting to see if the BJCP judges could pick the scottish ones.

The only exception I could see to this may be the beers coming from Traquair House.


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## nonicman (19/4/05)

> The wort is now cooled and pitched with bottom fermenting yeast under controlled temperature. It is then fermented in oak over a period of seven days. The beer is then transferred into cold storage tanks or barrels and matured over a period of weeks. After maturation the beer is filtered prior to packing.



Traquair House Brewery

Maybe that's why it's tastes different. Not really a Scottish Ale or is it? :blink: :unsure:


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## wee stu (19/4/05)

kook said:


> I keep seeing references to Irish Red Ale, but
> 
> IMO its the same with the Scottish ales.
> 
> ...



I think this may be an indictment of the homogenisation of British pub, and packaged, beers nowadays, more than anything else. Certainly in the mid to mass market ranges.

Historically, and in the recent past, there certainly has been a marked difference between the indigenous Scottish style and the English.

The last Belhaven I had came in a nitrogenated, widgeted can. 
I agree, faced with this insipid, bland travesty and any of the English, or Irish, beers equally bastardised with - I would probably fail at a blind tasting. 
Which is a shame, because Belhaven used to have a particulalry "nutty", rather than overtly peaty character, a character common to a number of other Scottish beers - Maclays, Caledonian, even a good McEwan's IPA. 

Mind you I always used to think that the version of McEwan's you sometimes found South of the border was a peculiarly aneamic and watered down specimen  

I spent a number of years in Manchester also, and in an occasional nostalgic moment succumb to a nitrogenated, cream flow pint. Invariably I wonder why I bothered.

Kook - I've been away from the British pub scene for almost 15 years, so I am not going to question your more recent experiences, but believe me the Scottish Ale style is not an invention of Michael Jackson and the 1970s. That it might be hard for you to find now in 21st Century London is sad, but perhaps not so surprising.

Traquair house ales have always been something of an exception  


awrabest, stu


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## bradmcm (19/4/05)

For many years the main distinction between Scottish and English
bitters was the hop level. Nowadays more and more Scottish brews are
as bitter as their southern counterparts.

As for whether Irish Ale should be a seperate style -
my opinion is no. There is nothing to distinguish them from
the UK beers.


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## Gough (19/4/05)

MAH,

My experience during my 12 months in Ireland (albeit almost 10 years ago...) would lead me to agree with the thrust of your argument. The 'red ales' were just being released in numbers when I was there - Caffrey's was to my knowledge the first big commercial variety, followed by Kilkenny, then Beamish Red, then Murphy's Red. All very ordinary beers, and all targeted at the tourists. Our flat was in Galway and we have famiy in Sligo and no-one I asked either local in the pub or family member (also often in the pub  )had ever really seen these beers until the '90s. No-one in my experience (other than tourists) drank them either. It wasn't until we went on a trip through the north of England and (sorry Stu) Scotland that I saw anyone really drinking these beers in any quantity. Caffrey's and Kilkenny especially were very popular. Here in Aus they seem to have carved out a niche and fair play to them. Personally I think the _look_ a million dollars, but they just don't taste... well they don't really taste like anything. Kilkenny in particular just seems to have a big hole in its middle where all the flavour should be. Very disappointing.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that no, my 'pop' syudy of the subject would lead me to believe that these beers are relatively new inventions and can't really be claimed as any kind of Irish 'national beer'. At least not on the west coast anyway...

Shawn.


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## Weizguy (19/4/05)

When I get my act together, I will transcribe from the Irish red article in a 2003 (ish) article about the same, in BYO.

Unless anyone chooses to beat me to the draw...

Seth


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## wee stu (19/4/05)

Weizguy said:


> When I get my act together, I will transcribe from the Irish red article in a 2003 (ish) article about the same, in BYO.
> 
> Unless anyone beats me to the draw...
> 
> ...



Seth, Zymurgy also ran with the Irish Red Ale theme in their Jan/Feb 2004 issue (I know this 'cos I still have Gulf/Pedro's back issue collection  ). The gist of this article is that the history is about as clear as Murphy's (or any other Irish) stout!
The oldest known producer is Smithwicks (now part of Guinness). If I cast my mind back to the 80s in the UK, the only Irish beer I knew of that was not a stout was indeed Smithwick's - Smithwick' s Bitter to be exact.

Memory is a fallible, inexact instrument - but I remember that beer to be no different in character, if not in hue, from many of it's English counterparts.

Gough, I am not surprised the Scots are drinking Caffreys and Kilkenny by the bucketful. The Scots are also known to consume Tennants Lager and Carlsberg Special Brew in vast quantities  . 

Maybe it is time to allow myself to become typecast and try and brew a Scottish ale myself? Who knows, it might just be the last one in captivity :excl:


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## Gough (19/4/05)

wee stu said:


> The gist of this article is that the history is about as clear as Murphy's (or any other Irish) stout!
> The oldest known producer is Smithwicks (now part of Guinness). If I cast my mind back to the 80s in the UK, the only Irish beer I knew of that was not a stout was indeed Smithwick's - Smithwick' s Bitter to be exact.
> 
> Memory is a fallible, inexact instrument - but I remember that beer to be no different in character, if not in hue, from many of it's English counterparts.
> ...



My (also inexact!) memory has Smithwicks (owned by Guinness by the time - mid 90's - I was there) as a distinctly different beer to the 'red ales' of the Caffrey's/Kilkenny ilk. No nitrogen and more flavour. Wasn't a great beer by any means, but had its own charms. 

Sorry, I'm really down on the Irish Red Ales I'm afraid. The nitro sucks even more flavour from them, but I think they are the Budweiser/Miller's/Toohey's Extra Dry of the Brit ale world. There, I've said it! Cast me down... 

Flame suit on h34r: 

Shawn.


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## wee stu (20/4/05)

Gough said:


> Sorry, I'm really down on the Irish Red Ales I'm afraid. The nitro sucks even more flavour from them, but I think they are the Budweiser/Miller's/Toohey's Extra Dry of the Brit ale world. There, I've said it! Cast me down...
> 
> Flame suit on h34r:
> 
> ...



In full agreement Shawn :super: 
My mongrel heritage includes about 1/4 Irish. Truly I'd love to own these beers, if I thought they had any merit. Sadly I don't h34r: 

Flame suit redirection disclaimer. In directing anger either to Gough or me, please remember who started this thread. 

MAH - the brewery challenged, home demolishing and renovating, s&%t stirrer, par excelence B)


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## Tim (20/4/05)

Im with Shawn and Stu on this one.
My old man is Irish and spent the first half of his life there. He claims that he had never seen Kilkenny or Caffreys there (Dublin). He said that the only pale beers you could get on tap were Harp lager and Courage pale. He also commented that a popular drink was a narfa which was half a pint of Guinness with half a pint of Courage pale.

Upon tasting Kilkenny here in Aus a few years ago he described it as 'flat tooheys draught'.
I tend to agree.


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## MAH (20/4/05)

OK it seems we're in agreement that Irish Red Ales are a load of marketing bollocks and the Yanks were stupid enough to believe the hype and include the "style" in their guidelines.

In particular I like Shawn's description of these blights on the beer world as having a big hole in the middle where the flavour should be. Maybe we should rename the "style" to Irish Doughnut Ales.

Cheers
MAH


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## MAH (20/4/05)

wee stu said:


> MAH - the brewery challenged, home demolishing and renovating, s&%t stirrer, par excelence B)



Well Stu after you left last night, I finished knocking out the cabinetary. I'll leave the neighbours in peace and quiet before I resume ripping up the floor with the bad boy of rotary hammer drils the *HILTI TE92
*

Cheers
MAH


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## Gough (20/4/05)

MAH said:


> OK it seems we're in agreement that Irish Red Ales are a load of marketing bollocks and the Yanks were stupid enough to believe the hype and include the "style" in their guidelines.
> 
> In particular I like Shawn's description of these blights on the beer world as having a big hole in the middle where the flavour should be. Maybe we should rename the "style" to Irish Doughnut Ales.
> 
> ...



Doughnut Ales it is then MAH  I think the name says it all. Now where is the number for the BJCP...  

Shawn.

ps - If anyone disagrees, check out Mah's gun - and he's not afraid to use it


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## PostModern (20/4/05)

I reckon a well crafted Red is a nice drop (I agree on Kilkenny being a doughnut tho). Or are you guys saying it's just a bitter with some redness in the colour? Either way, I'll be brewing more of them and calling them "Irish Red"


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## jayse (20/4/05)

I just call it 'irish git ale'.
Killkenny doesn't really seem to fit exactly what it is meant to be, i think it gets called a irish red ale because its irish its red and its a ale. I can't even say wether or not the modern australian brewed version is even a ale at all.
The caffereys you can actually tell they use a yeast similar to wyeast 1084 because you can actually taste some of its profile in the beer. Like everyone has said you can't really taste anything in kilkenny, but everynow and again i have tasted a mix of what i percieve as challanger and fuggles.

Anyway the only real historic reference to red ales being made in ireland i have found is The G.H. Lett Brewery of Enniscorthy, County Wexford, Ireland.
which was closed in the mid 50's by the last of five generations of brewers in george killian lett, this is were Coors got the name killian red from which by all accounts doesn't seem to be anything like the beer that the letts actually made.

One thing i have found is murphys red ale is meant to be the closest to the style and that beer is nothing at all like a kilkenny actually its pretty close to just a mass produced ale 'swill', from what i vaguely remember anyway.

Anyway i don't have any problem with the name irish red the problem i see it what people think the beer should be. I don't think kilkenny is anywhere near close to the measuring stick of the style but i could be wrong.
Either way brewers can brew and call there brews what they like and the fact does remain most brewers do see irish red as a style of its own, i'am not gunna agree or disagree with that just go along knowing what people mean when they use the term irish red ale.

I like the way irish tourists to australia put it..'your irish pubs are more irish than the ones in ireland'..which of course doesn't really make sense.
With this it looks like even though irish is in the name the irish red ale is not something that you'd get in ireland just like our so called irish pubs.


Sorry i realise iam just ranting.
Anyhow have a lovely afternoon chaps.
Jayse


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## warrenlw63 (20/4/05)

jayse said:


> I just call it 'irish git ale'.
> The caffereys you can actually tell they use a yeast similar to wyeast 1084 because you can actually taste some of its profile in the beer.[post="55418"][/post]​



Hey Jayse. I know that profile it's called staleness.  

I think nitro beers all taste basically the same. Below average beers slutted up with nitro. Boddingtons and Caffreys all taste like they're made at the same place.

That's their problem. They all have a sameness.

Warren -


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## Snow (20/4/05)

Well put, Jayse. There can be a lot of discrepency in how people define the Irish Red "style". However, I think if you asked someone to tell you the name of an Irish Red Ale, my gut feel is the majority would say Kilkenny. Most of the brewpubs I have been to that make an Irish Red have tried to clone Kilkenny. I guess it's really just an Amber Ale that's made in Ireland.

- Snow


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## Gulf Brewery (20/4/05)

The other hassle is that they now insist on serving everything "Ice Cold". I had kilkenny off tap a few years ago and the beer was served reasonably warm and it wasn't too bad. The stuff we get now is too cold and no flavour. 

Cheers
Pedro


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## MAH (20/4/05)

I still stand by my original assertion that there is nothing intrinsically Irish about this beer, except maybe that the Irish, in particular Guiness were the first to experiment with mixed gas pouring. To me Irish Red Ale is better described under other existing categories like Bitter (although it hardly has enough hops) or even better Brown Ale. 

However this is just a personal rant and I have the same problem with putting the word Imperial in front of everything just because it's higher in gravity than the normal version.

Maybe if Scottish and Newcastle wanted to introduce a "new" beer, they could serve a cream flow version of Newcastle Brown Ale and called Spud Murphy's Rowdy Red Ale!

Cheers
MAH


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## MAH (20/4/05)

What am I talking about, Scottish and Newcastle already make an Irish Red. I just looked up some of their breweries and found this:

Beamish & Crawford, Cork, Eire 

Capacity 574,000 hectolitres per annum with 1 keg line and 1 bottling line.
Main brands: Beamish genuine Irish Stout, Beamish Black, Beamish Red Irish Ale, Miller Genuine Draft, Fosters and Carling Black Label Lager. 

Just reading the list of beers produced by this alchohol factory should give an indication of the quality and authenticity of Irish Red Ales.

Cheers
MAH


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## Darren (20/4/05)

MAH,
How about Irish ales can have diacetyl. English ales not! Certainly one clear difference between the two styles.
cheers
Darren


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## MAH (20/4/05)

Darren said:


> MAH,
> How about Irish ales can have diacetyl. English ales not! Certainly one clear difference between the two styles.
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="55463"][/post]​




In a brown ale diacetyl is acceptable at low levels. So maybe an Irish is just a nitro served version of a Brown Ale?

Cheers
MAH


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## neonmeate (20/4/05)

MAH said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> > MAH,
> ...



yeah but an irish red has a caramel flavour and none of the toastiness of a brown.

but i agree with you, the style was invented to provide a sugary alternative to people not tough enough to drink guinness and should be abolished along with "amber ale"!


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## wee stu (20/4/05)

FWIW, Murphy's Irish Red was launched into the Irish market in 2005 - following success in markets such as the USA. 
It is branded as Irish Red Beer, not surprisingly really, 'cos it is, apparently, a lager  .

awrabest, stu


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## Sean (20/4/05)

Darren said:


> MAH,
> How about Irish ales can have diacetyl. English ales not! Certainly one clear difference between the two styles.
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="55463"][/post]​


?

There are heaps of English ales with significant diacetyl levels.


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## jayse (21/4/05)

MAH said:


> snipped>
> I still stand by my original assertion
> [post="55452"][/post]​



I still think we should plug the guitars in and play them! :blink: 
I know exactly where your coming from MAH but still understand and recognise many people do feel irish red is a style even though we mostly feel its a novelty not a beer.
same goes for when people post IPA recipes full of cascade we all now its not right but on some level we all know what the beer they are talking about is.


Jayse


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## Darren (21/4/05)

English bitter/ pale ale, is there any difference between them? Why are these beers given two different categories when they very clearly overlap?
At least irish ale has some distinguishing features.

Sean, If you enter an english ale with diacetyl in a HB competition you will be marked down for diacetyl. Not so if you enter as an Irish ale


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## MAH (21/4/05)

Darren said:


> English bitter/ pale ale, is there any difference between them? Why are these beers given two different categories when they very clearly overlap?



Darren

Yep let's do it, let's scrap the category Bitter, as you say they're all just Pale Ales, with varying degrees of starting gravity and corresponding bitterness. 

Cheers
MAH


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## The Scientist (4/11/06)

I love Irish Red Ales, Murphys, Caffrey's, Beamish, Guinness, Beer, Nitro, Potatoes, Brien O'Driscoll, Ireland and especially Killkenny. :beerbang: 

Yes I believe Irish Reds should have their own category and I don't really care that a lot of styles are ultimately very similar. I love the variety in the brewing world, even if the variety is purely in a name or origin. 

The English troops in India who enjoyed the original IPAs were known to be more English and Patriotic than people that lived in England. So the Irish pubs here in Aus being over the top Irish, is just one of the things that happen when you try and create a pub that is narrowly classified as 'Irish'.

Beer is only made up of a few key ingrediance, so to most people who don't share our passion of brewing 'Beer is Beer'. Most people don't even really know what makes a beer, a lot of people think that beer is made out of hops. :huh: 

The water in certain parts of the world imparts a unique character to some beers e.g. Pilsen. The Water in Ireland, Scotland and England are different, so their beers are different, this to name only one feature. To truly recreate this style obviously you would need to take these factors into consideration, but to say these styles should be abandoned is sad. I love the challenge of trying to replicate my Fav commercial brew, even if others think it is tasteless. What one person likes is another persons poison, I know I love Hoegaarden but my wife thinks it tastes like cat's piss :lol: Maybe I just have a wider range in my palette.

I think some of the beers I've brewed should have their own category, cuz they sure don't fit into any current ones. I think they still taste good, but some of you are probably starting to think my view has no merit.  

Don't make me pull the Beer racist card!!!

Cheers,

TS


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## Brewtus (4/11/06)

jayse said:


> I like the way irish tourists to australia put it..'your irish pubs are more irish than the ones in ireland'..which of course doesn't really make sense.
> With this it looks like even though irish is in the name the irish red ale is not something that you'd get in ireland just like our so called irish pubs.


This may be because at the turn of the century (6 years ago) there was a big trade in Irish pub crap. Overseas buyers would pay thousands for genuine irish pub fittings and decor, old lamps, buckets, hurling sticks, what ever crap had been in a pub in Ireland. Old pubs would sell all the crap, redecorate and still have money left and the irish got new, clean and modern pubs.

The bemish brewery is like tooheys in Sydney or Carlton in Melboure in the sense it is the cities traditional brewery but now is probably owned buy multinationals and brews sad copies of the companies other beers under licence to keep the volumes economically viable.


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## bconnery (4/11/06)

Personally I think Smithwicks is an excellent beer. In my time in Ireland I drank it a lot. I believe that stating that Irish Red isn't a valid style because of the likes of Beamish Red and Kilkenny is like stating that Lager isn't because of the likes of Budweiser, VB etc. 

St Arnou here in Brisbane does an excellent Irish red as well. Think Kilkenny with malt flavour and without the nitro kegness...

Irish Red is kind of like the bastard cousin of bitter and amber ale. 

I also think that Scottish beers still have a difference to British ones although like any style in the modern global world the lines can become blurred.

Of course I have been sampling all evening so it could be me that is 

I was forced to submit my Irish Red into the dark ale class of my local homebrew comp. 

I got a Bronze and was half a point of a place.

Does this prove or disprove my point? Not sure. But would I have done well with it in the bitter category? I'm not so sure...


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## Weizguy (5/11/06)

Weizguy said:


> When I get my act together, I will transcribe from the Irish red article in a 2003 (ish) article about the same, in BYO.
> 
> Unless anyone chooses to beat me to the draw...
> 
> Seth



Looks like it was a long draw on this one.  

Here's what Horst D. Dornbusch had to say in BYO (Jan- Feb 2003, Vol 9. No 1)...

*Red Ale - The other style from Ireland* - by Horst D. Dornbusch (excerpted without permission from BYO magazine, in the interest of beer education/ familiarisation on AHB)

Considering the popularity of Irish stouts, especially Guinness, we sometimes forget that stout was not the first Irish beer style. Nor has it always been the best known one. In fact, the earliest references to stout date only to the the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries.

Beer in Ireland is obviously much older than that, although nobody really knows how old. Irish missionaries went to Europe in the sixth century and started breweries on the continent, buut I do not know if they learned brewing there or brought the skill over from Ireland. In addition, the Vikings probably brewed in Irelandduring their occupation of the British Isles, from roughly the ninth to the twelfth century. Either way, history makes one fact fairly clear - the Celtic ales brewed in Ireland in the Middle Ages and earlier had a noticeable ruby-red tinge. Hence the name: Irish red ale.

Today, Irish red ale is an obscure style. Not a single example can claim unqualified authenticity for itself. Much like the Vienna lager of central Europe, the Irish red has almost disappeeared and there is some debate as to its true characteristics. As best we can tell, the empahasis of traditional Irish red ale brewers, not unlike that of Munich lager brewers, has been on strong, slightly nutty maltiness and certainly not on powerrful hoppiness.. The Celtic ales brewed in Ireland in the Middle Ages and before then were probably only lightly hopped, And, unlike the stout, they did not taste very roasted at all - even though they likely contained plenty of darkish (but not necessarily black) malts. The brew's maltiness and colour come mostly from traditional brown malts, roasted barley and sugar syrups. These ingredients are what give the beer its familiar reddish tinge. To use a forced comparison, the Irish red is probably more like a marriage between a British brown or dark ale and a German Altbier than it is a precursor to the stout.

The article goes on to describe relavant ingredients and techniques to brew this ale.

And, typical of me to present the opposite point of view, paraphrasing my lhbs owner (proably inaccurately, but U get that...): "Kilkenny red - a traditional Irish ale, since the late 80's".

BTW, Kilkenny is Smithwicks. The K name is used in overseas marketing, prob coz it sounds more Irish.  
I just can't help thinking of South Park. OMG, someone killed Kenny. You [email protected]!

Seth out


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