# How do you use your Counter Flow Chiller (CFC) ?



## Dan Pratt (21/7/14)

Im wondering how to use my CFC as a replacement chiller from the current Immersion Chiller that I have. Now one may think that is simple but what I have to find out from those that use a CFC, how do you control the trub.

Here is my current process ( this is what works for me )

End of boil - turn on immersion chiller ( this has already been in during the boil )
When temp reaches below 30c - lift out immersion chiller
Whirlpool - I get the wort spinning with a santized SS spoon.
Replace lid and let that settle for 15mins - during this time I prepare the pre sanitized FV for transfer.

When the 15mins is done the wort is crystal clear, all the trub, hops debris, hot/coldbreak have all settled out - the Whirlfloc tablet attributes to this.

I can then transfer wort with little to no trub into the FV from the Kettle, this is my preference.

If Im to use the CFC, how do I get that settle out of the wort, where does the cold break go ( not that it matters if it gets in the beer ) but at the end of the boil there is heaps of hops and debris/trub floating around that will have not had time to settle out??

Do I just whirlpool and let it settle for 5 mins? Can I run the CFC and return line for 5 mins to chill the wort below 80c then let it settle....how do you use your CFC?


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## mckenry (21/7/14)

Flameout. Lid on.
Wait 15mins for convection currents to stop.
Whirlpool. Lid on.
Wait 15 mins for trub to settle.
Drain (I do mine through my march pump, which was sanitised with boiling wort) to the CFC
When trub is getting sucked towards the pickup, I stop there.

You will get cold break in your fermenter.
Deal with it however you like. i.e. leave it, dump it out of your conical, rack to another FV.
Most simply leave it.


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## Dan Pratt (21/7/14)

Thanks Mckenry, thats what I needed to read. Simple.

Do you have a Temp Dial Gauge on your CFC with a 1/2 ball valve to control the flow?


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## mckenry (21/7/14)

Pratty1 said:


> Thanks Mckenry, thats what I needed to read. Simple.
> 
> Do you have a Temp Dial Gauge on your CFC with a 1/2 ball valve to control the flow?


No, no temp gauge or ball valve on the CFC. No temp gauge on the kettle either. The kettle has a ball valve, which I have fully open, running to the march pump and then into the CFC, then out to the fermenter. I don't know what the actual temp is coming out of the kettle and going into the CFC, but the fermenter has an STC attached and I usually get to around 24° with summer water supply and 15° with winter supply. I just let the temp come down using the fridge from 24 to 19, then pitch and oxygenate. Or when doing lager from 15 down to 12 (or 10) and pitch and oxygenate.
You being in Springfield should have a pretty cold supply this time of year.
As long as you're sanitised fermenter stays sealed I cant see too much danger in leaving until the temp is ready. Ive tried pitching warmer (i.e. at 24 straight after transfer) and bringing the ferment temp down ASAP and it worked OK, but I prefer the beers I make that are pitched at ferment temp, then ramped up towards the end.
Thats the reason I do it that way.

Anyway - to guess at what you're getting at - I reckon in summer I put the wort in at about 80° and with one pass, no pre chill ice or any other 'help' it gets down to 24°. In winter 80 down to 15°


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## fraser_john (22/7/14)

Similar..

Boil wort
Flame (electric) out
Whirlpool
Drain kettle into FV via CFC (gravity feed)
Cold trub stays there

When I am doing a Pils or something I "might" settle for 24 hours and then open the dump valve in the conical to remove trub, but rarely.


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## micblair (22/7/14)

1.Flameout;
2.Whirlpool;
3.15 minute hot stand, or until wort runs clear (whichever comes first);
3. *LID OFF* (see note);
4. Chill, and
5. Pitch immediately.

Note:
The benefit of lid off is three-fold:
a) Allows any remaining DMS to continue to evaporate
b) assists in dropping the temperature faster slowing hop isomerisation/whirlpool utilisation
c) Allows for a slower flow of cold liquor (saving water) as you dropped the temperature a few extra degrees in the step above.


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## Dan Pratt (29/9/14)

Used the CFC today.

- end of boil open kettle ball valve
- open cfc ball valve
- start pump
- watch whirlpool return pipe start spinning wort
- add whirlpool hops and WP for 10mins
- end of WP, turn off pump
- close both ball valves
- allow wort to settle for 10mins (prepare FV)
- start water for cfc on full pelt
- open kettle ball valve and start pump
- commence transfer of wort to FV

Got from boil to 23c.....used a heap of water, way more than what the IC uses but was 10c cooler. Took less than an hour to chill to 18c in my commercial glass door fridge. 

not sure it's better....got way more cold break and hop debris than what I used to get using the IC......not that it matters but I would really prefer a clean no trub or cold break transfer.


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## IsonAd (29/9/14)

I recently took my cfc for its maiden voyage. Did similar to above. Gravity fed.
Flameout
Wait 10 mins
Whirlpool
Chill

Had hose on pretty fast but not full and slowed wort exit ball valve to about half. Got it down to only about 34. Water was cold Canberra August water so not sure what I did wrong. Used about 80-100l of Water I'd say.


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## dave81 (29/9/14)

I am also switching to cfc when I get my new system up and running and have ponderd these same questions, I was going to feed into fv through a strainer just to clear up a little bit more.and probably start recirculation via whorlpool port on the kettle within the last 5-10 mins of the boil.???


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## IsonAd (30/9/14)

I have to say that despite seeing quite a bit of trube going into the fv, there was remarkably little at the end of fermentation compared to other similar batches I either no chilled or ice bathed.


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## fraser_john (30/9/14)

IsonAd said:


> I have to say that despite seeing quite a bit of trube going into the fv, there was remarkably little at the end of fermentation compared to other similar batches I either no chilled or ice bathed.


Cold break is often quite "fluffy" as it comes out of a CFC, fermentation compacts it into tight groups that often look like crumbly yeast as part of the yeast cake. I use glass carboys or conical to ferment in and have watched the fluffy cold break compress overnight and then get kicked up with fermentation and compress into the crumbly type stuff.


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## HalfWit (30/9/14)

I run the wort through the CFC back into the kettle for 10 min, than whirlpool for 10 min than into the fermentor. Is this method okay?


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## Dan Pratt (30/9/14)

Halfwit, I was thinking that maybe I can run the return line/whirlpool back into the kettle for 10mins with the cold water running on the cfc to chill the wort from boil to say 50c....then let that settle for 10-15mins and that cold break will settle out.....then start transfer to the FV = less cold break into the fermenter.


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## Hawko777 (14/10/14)

Flameout
Plate chiller sterilised from pumping hot wort back to boiler -15 min
with pump still going I now turn on cold water
Keep whirlpooling until temp gets to around 30 Deg C in boiler
Temp gauge on Plate chiller outlet monitored until I can easily pump 22-24 Deg C to fermenter
Temp gauge on Plate chiller is good to monitor if you are running it off too quick or not(Too quick=no heat transfer)
Cold break in boiler.
Good large filter on dip tube in boiler to catch everything.
No blockages yet.

Sometimes in the middle of summer its hard to get the temp down so I will run through plate chiller to an immersion chiller bathed in iced water then into fermenter. Only needed to do this a couple of times in Perth.

Good Luck mate


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## Dan Pratt (20/10/14)

An update on how I have got my CFC running after 3 brews with the new equipment:

Preparing the CFC for use.

night before brew add 25lts of water and PBW to kettle and bring up to 75c
re-circulate this through the kettle, hoses, pump and CFC for 20mins
close off kettle valve and CFC valve and leave pbw to soak in hoses, pump and cfc overnight
wash out kettle and fill with 25lts of water, next morning, hook up hoses and drain 25lts through the system, flushing out the PBW.
Using the CFC

at 5 mins to go for the boil I hook up all the hoses for the wort and water
at flameout/boil finish, open valve in kettle and valve on CFC outlet/wort return
start pump and whirlpool commences, add whirlpool hops if required
allow to run for 5mins ( or longer for whirlpool hops ) with >95c wort ( the lid is on and it stays at about 97c)
When whirlpool finishes, close valves, turn off pump and let settle for 10mins
Prepare FV for transfer, remove whirlpool fitting and clean/sanitize transfer hose
after 10mins ( or however long it takes to get FV rinsed and sanitized ) turn water on, the CFC gets very cold quickly.
Open kettle valve and start the pump
 open the outlet valve just enough to start transfer, basically a trickle ( rate is about 1litre per minute )
I tilt the BM to get the final amounts stopping before trub goes through the outlet port and with current tap water temps at 18c I get wort at <25c. I get that to pitching temps (for me is17c) I would require to run a prechiller with my old IC. I have considered re-circulating back to the kettle to about 60c to reduce the cold break/hop debris intot the FV and will try it just to see how it goes.


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## Goose (20/10/14)

All looks sound to me.

I also use a prechiller with tapwater to waste before a second stage, however by doing this you will find the thermal mass of the second chiller doubling and you may have to watch the temperature in the combined system to make sure its at a temperature to kill any lurking spores. I am informed this is above 90 deg C but it still makes me feel uneasy.

If you want to save some time and you prefer to leave the lid off (benefits mentioned above), an alternative you may wish to consider is to instead recirculate starsan for 10 mins through your CFC and hoses prior to transfer. Then get chill water flowing, hookup hose to boiler, crack the valve from the boiler and allow gravity to flush the starsan out to waste. When you see wort come through, connect to fermenter and commence transfer.

I've tried both methods and now run with the latter.


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## Dan Pratt (20/10/14)

Goose said:


> ..................................... an alternative you may wish to consider is to instead recirculate starsan for 10 mins through your CFC and hoses prior to transfer.


Thanks Goose, I have a question..

Starsan is a sanitizer, not a cleaner right? The cfc should be cleaned before use, which is why I do a PBW soak overnight.

See I flush the system with water after use but then the CFC will sit for over 7days before brewing again and brewers should not rely on boiling wort to clean and sanitize the internals. In the past with other equipment I used to just soak in starsan but after reading more about the topic, I learnt that cleaning is required before sanitizing, no one thing can do both. No doubt it has worked for you and Im not knocking your technique, just sharing why I dont do that, it certainly was an option when I was reading/learning how to use the equipment.

edit - its possible I may of misinterpreted what your saying...I whirlpool for 3 reasons - whirlpool hop additions, trub/cone formation at base of kettle for transfer and to sanitize the cfc and lines.


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## HalfWit (20/10/14)

I store my CFC filled in a solution of Starsan and distilled water.


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## Goose (20/10/14)

HalfWit said:


> I store my CFC filled in a solution of Starsan and distilled water.


I wouldn't. Not if your CFC is copper. Copper and acid don't like each other for long. Finish everything with PBW then a water rinse and leave to drain as best possible then leave open to air.


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## Goose (20/10/14)

Pratty1 said:


> Thanks Goose, I have a question..
> 
> Starsan is a sanitizer, not a cleaner right? The cfc should be cleaned before use, which is why I do a PBW soak overnight.
> 
> ...


You are dead right. Starsan is a sanitiser not a cleaner. PBW on the other hand, is a CIP cleaner. Therefore it follows that _after_ each brew if you properly flush and CIP with PBW then _before _your next brew you should only need to sanitise. Hence finish with PBW, start with Starsan.

Of course if you have left your CFC and hoses for a long time and fear something may have grown or crawled in there then a run with PBW prior to Starsan wont hurt, but if you are a few weeks between brews I would not be concerned.


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## ashley_leask (20/10/14)

Hawko777 said:


> ... Good large filter on dip tube in boiler to catch everything. No blockages yet...


What do you use? I'd probably do something similar to what you're doing if I could be sure I wasn't going to block the chiller. Do you use pellet hops free in the boil?


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## Goose (20/10/14)

I use one of these:







But a nylon hopsock that you can pick up from craftbrewer will do just as well.


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## doon (28/10/14)

Pratty1 what's the fitting your using to whirlpool on your bm


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## dave81 (28/10/14)

Goose said:


> I use one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where does one get one of those?


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## Goose (28/10/14)

https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php


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## Dan Pratt (29/10/14)

doon said:


> Pratty1 what's the fitting your using to whirlpool on your bm


a bloke I know is a plumber by trade and when he replaced our HWS I asked if he could bend some copper tube for the whirlpool. I added a camlock fitting to it and it sits about 2 inches below the wort level after the boil.

1/2 inch copper pipe and camlock



on the BM


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## doon (29/10/14)

Thats awesome. Will have to look into ding that


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## MattSR (22/12/14)

Do you run the wort through the inside or outside channel of the CFC? I tested my CFC last night on the Brau and he 'wort' still came out warm...

Also what hoses are you going there too? I want to move to camlocks and that big dia hose looks nice!!


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## Dan Pratt (22/12/14)

Hi Matt,

The wort should be on the inside pipe so that the cold water flows in the opposite direction, around the hot wort through the CFC.

Im using 13mm silicon hoses for the wort and SS camlocks, the water has the blue hose from bunnings with SS camlocks aswell.


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## MattSR (22/12/14)

OK thanks - I have it plumbed up correctly, now I'm thinking that the wort us flowing too quickly through the chiller - are you using a valve to restrict the wort flow through the CFC?


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## dave81 (22/12/14)

If you run a pump you could use the valve on the outgoing side of that or you could use a valve on thenoutlet of the cfc or the kettle


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## Dan Pratt (22/12/14)

I have a ball valve on the cfc outlet to restrict the flow into the FV.

You can zoom in to see the setup.


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## MattSR (22/12/14)

Awesome, thanks guys - I squeezed the hose during a test and the flow went right down, however the temp was perfect!! I could slow it down so that the outlet temp was just as cold as the tap water..

Just out of interest, how low does it take to drain out 20 litres of wort into the FV with the wort temperature nice and cold?

Cheers,
Matt


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## Dan Pratt (22/12/14)

Ive been transferring the wort to FV at about 1lt per min and getting about 26c final temp. I could slow that rate to about 1lt per 90secs but it only get about a 2c lower temp and takes another 10mins.


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## dave81 (4/2/15)

How do you account for the xtra bitterness from having the wort sitting st a high temp still for the extra 20mins while transfer to the fv
I would like to know because I will do my first double batch soon and some it may take 40mins or so to transfer it all.
Do you whirlpool through the cfc while chilling b4 transferring to tje fv?


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## Dan Pratt (4/2/15)

Hi Dave,

The xtra bitterness is not very high, infact rather low. From the dozen batches Ive made and some of these having 45ibu from a 60min addition, the increased bitterness would have been < 5 ibu but i had no " oh geez thats way more bitter than expected". My transfer takes about 20-25mins.

I whirlpool at the end of boil for at least 5mins before transfer to the FV I recirculate chilled wort back to the kettle before transfer. The hot wort goes out the kettle outlet, into pump, into CFC gets chilled and is transferred direct into the FV.


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## dave81 (4/2/15)

Cheers for the reply Pratty
Yeah I was thinking of doing the same as you and recirculate some chilled wort back to the kettle b4 going to the fv


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## Dan Pratt (5/2/15)

dave81 said:


> Cheers for the reply Pratty
> Yeah I was thinking of doing the same as you and recirculate some chilled wort back to the kettle b4 going to the fv


 sorry I should have said - I don't recirculate the wort back while chilling, hot wort get chilled and goes straight into the FV.

I have considered it for a whirlpool at 95c and then recirc and chill to 75c and add more whirlpool hops, Ive heard that get a different extraction of the oils.


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## MattSR (13/2/15)

Hi Guys,

After adding the valve and restricting the flow the wort is coming out at the right temperature. What I was thinking is that adding a second chiller might enable me to increase the flow dramatically. Running boiling water (100 degrees) through the chiller with no flow control gave me an outlet temp of 50 degrees. I figure a second chiller should be able to drop this from 50 degrees down to near the cooling water temperature..

Cheers,
Matt


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## Dan Pratt (13/2/15)

MattSR said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> After adding the valve and restricting the flow the wort is coming out at the right temperature. What I was thinking is that adding a second chiller might enable me to increase the flow dramatically. Running boiling water (100 degrees) through the chiller with no flow control gave me an outlet temp of 50 degrees. I figure a second chiller should be able to drop this from 50 degrees down to near the cooling water temperature..
> 
> ...


Hi Matt,

Good to here that you got a better result from the valve addition. 

You could add another chiller and achieve little more than what you already get which is >30c into the FV. If anything add a prechiller for the water to run through, immersion style copper tubing in a ice bath to get that cooling water temp to <10c, this way creating a greater gradiant for the 100c wort to be chilled, dropping your knockout temp down below 20c.

See tap water in summer here is 25c and the lowest temp at 1L/per min I get into teh FV is 32c, I could slow that rate down to 0.5lt/per min but may only get to 30c, but by lowering the water thats chilling to <10c that increases the gradiant and likely get my wort to pitching temps. However I use the fridge to do the rest instead of a prechiller and in your case a second chiller.

For the record in winter the water is like 18c and get my wort inthe FV at around 24/25c so its about a 7 degree variance running at 1L/per min through the CFC based on the tap water temp.

My advice, if you're keen to get to pitch temps then lower the tap water temperature by prechilling.


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## technobabble66 (13/2/15)

@Matt - totally agree w Pratty. 
CFCs depend entirely on the chilling medium that absorbs the heat. As your target temp approaches the temp of the chilling medium (ie: tap water) the efficiency (read: speed or final temp) of the CFC drops away dramatically. So a large increase in time or volume doesn't make a big difference; whereas dropping the temp of the chilling medium away from the target temp regains a large amount of efficiency. Hence you can easily drop your target temp further or increase your flow rate. Or both if you drop the temp of the chilling medium enough. 

Fwiw, the system I choose to run is:
Run starsan thru the pump and CFC in the late stages of the boil (the acid is good to remove any copper oxide residue in the CFC). 
Gravity drain most of the starsan. 
Recirculate wort thru the CFC back into the kettle at flameout. This drops the temp in the kettle to below 80*C within 5 mins. Another 5-10 mins drops it below 66*C - whirlpool hops go in now and pump/CFC turned off. Steeps for ~20-30mins. Whirlpool in the last 10-15mins. 
Turn pump and CFC water back on and kettle is drained into FV. 

I do it like that to get a rapid halt to bittering - to hopefully get more reproducible recipes. 
The drop to 66-ish is to drop below to volitization point of most of the hops oils. Great theory but I'm not sure if I'm losing out in other chemical reactions. So far so good. 
Temp into FV is around 21*C in January. If I need lower I commonly need to dilute out to hit target OG, so I just add a few litres of tap water (K&K's do it so why can't I?!). Generally will get it to 17-18*C fairly easily.


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## Dan Pratt (13/2/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Recirculate wort thru the CFC back into the kettle at flameout. This drops the temp in the kettle to below 80*C within 5 mins. Another 5-10 mins drops it below 66*C - whirlpool hops go in now and pump/CFC turned off. Steeps for ~20-30mins. Whirlpool in the last 10-15mins.


Hi techno,

I have considered trying that method to lower the temp before adding WP hops as Im currently adding them right after the boil has finished and the wort is whirpooling and leaving the lid on for about 10mins.

I have read that the lower temps hold more of teh volitile/essential oils, my question is have you tried a particular recipe with WP additions and different temps to see how much more hop flavour and aroma you get from the lower v's the higher temp?


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## technobabble66 (13/2/15)

Pratty1 said:


> Hi techno,
> 
> I have considered trying that method to lower the temp before adding WP hops as Im currently adding them right after the boil has finished and the wort is whirpooling and leaving the lid on for about 10mins.
> 
> I have read that the lower temps hold more of teh volitile/essential oils, my question is have you tried a particular recipe with WP additions and different temps to see how much more hop flavour and aroma you get from the lower v's the higher temp?


Short answer: nope, not yet. I just don't brew frequently enough to run replicated recipes. I'm still getting other basic elements correct in my recipes (eg: be careful with Nelson ...). However, once I've got those elements sorted I should be able to replicate the overall process every time. 
It *does* mean I can stack 20min flavour additions without needing to make an IPA every batch though; which is v handy for some/most of the styles I try. I have the tragic preference for lots of hops flavour and aroma, but not too many IBUs. 

I think I need to find some more literature on the chemical reactions the hops oils go through as to whether the high temperatures are needed to utilize them properly or if my process can maximize their capture (maybe with a longer steep...).


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## MattSR (13/3/15)

Just been thinking over this one a bit more - the pre-chilling idea looks to be great and very effective, but I have also been toying with the idea of recirculating the wort back into the fermenter during the whirlpooling stage..

For example, at flameout, I start the pump, and feed the wort from the Braumeister, into the pump, then from the pump into the CFC, and from the CFC back into the vessel. Once a whirlpool is established, then I start running the cooling water through the CFC and watch the temp drop. Once the wort temp in the vessel is down to 20-30 degrees or whatever, I then stop the pump, remove the whirlpool hose, and transfer to the FV..

Does this sound ok to you guys?

Cheers,
Matt


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## Dan Pratt (13/3/15)

MattSR said:


> Just been thinking over this one a bit more - the pre-chilling idea looks to be great and very effective, but I have also been toying with the idea of recirculating the wort back into the fermenter during the whirlpooling stage..
> 
> For example, at flameout, I start the pump, and feed the wort from the Braumeister, into the pump, then from the pump into the CFC, and from the CFC back into the vessel. Once a whirlpool is established, then I start running the cooling water through the CFC and watch the temp drop. Once the wort temp in the vessel is down to 20-30 degrees or whatever, I then stop the pump, remove the whirlpool hose, and transfer to the FV..
> 
> ...


Hi Matt,

That sounds fine to me.

If your going that way, when the heat gets to below 80c, add 2g/L of hops and while it continues to cool the oils from the hops will be adding to aroma compunds in the beer.  

One thing I would suggest though is that when you reach your 20-30c, close the valves, prepare the hose into the FV and allow the whirpool out for about 10mins, this will drop out all the flaoting trub before the transfer, provided you used whirfloc or your wheat content is low. 

Dan


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## MattSR (13/3/15)

Awesome, thanks Pratty, I'm starting to get a handle on this whole AG brewing thing I feel..

I must say, I'm loving the Braumeister too, it is a fantastic bit of gear - and with the pump and CFC it is just awesome.

Cheers,
Matt


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## dave81 (13/3/15)

Pratty1 said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> That sounds fine to me.
> 
> ...


Thats how I use my cfc also but I dont add the whirlpool hops until I hit 60.c for less chance of boiling the hop oils away
I dont have a pre chiller yet but I struggle to get below 32-34.c Into the fermentor unless I take an hour to transfer so a pre chiller should sort that out


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## MattSR (13/3/15)

What's the best way to go about making a pre-chiller? I notice that Keg King has SS coils available, so I guess its just a matter of getting some fittings and an esky and plumbing it all up....

Cheers,
Matt


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## Dan Pratt (13/3/15)

^

Id go with one of these chiller plates, add water to cover the plate and fill with ice....should ge that water passing through at 5-10c







or use a plate chiller and double loop it using the entire surface area's,


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## MattSR (23/4/15)

Pratty1 said:


> a bloke I know is a plumber by trade and when he replaced our HWS I asked if he could bend some copper tube for the whirlpool. I added a camlock fitting to it and it sits about 2 inches below the wort level after the boil.
> 
> 1/2 inch copper pipe and camlock
> 
> ...


Hi Pratty1, 

I love that setup, do you mind if I copy it? :chug: :chug:Also - did you use a compression fitting to attach the camlock to the pipe or something else?

With the first chiller in the post above, do you know where I can source one of those? it looks great and is probably easier to hook up than a bunch of stainless or copper tubing in an easy..

Cheers,
Matt


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## Dan Pratt (23/4/15)

MattSR said:


> Hi Pratty1,
> 
> I love that setup, do you mind if I copy it? :chug: :chug:Also - did you use a compression fitting to attach the camlock to the pipe or something else?
> 
> ...


Hi,

By all means, make yourself a wort return pipe, it used a compression fitting with a male threaded cam lock into that.

The first chiller can be sourced from Andale, think they are around $125 retail but keep an eye out online for them they can pop up now and again.

Dan


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## takai (23/4/15)

How did you get the return pipe to sit at the angle that it does? Just gravity or does the rigidity of the hose help?


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