# Gas Or Electricity?



## flano (29/9/10)

So if I want to keep doing BIAB I need to do it outside the house....the smell was too much for the missus.

That doesn't bother me in the slightest though.

Was looking at those imersion element rod thingys to get a pot up to a rolling boil...
....or those little burner stands for gas with all the jets.

My only concern with the gas is that it would chew though a 9l gas bottle very quickly.

Or urn.

any advice would be great.

I have decided to dedicate my first BIAB brew to my missus and call it " Five Horses Lager" .

nag nag nag nag nag.


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## MarkBastard (29/9/10)

If you have power outside an urn is very easy and handy.


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## flano (29/9/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you have power outside an urn is very easy and handy.




yeah ...all my bar setup is in my garage that opens straight out into the back yard.
I have power outside .

What sort of urn ..I have seen a few on ebay but am not sure if they will get up a rolling boil for an hour.
Do they have a thermostat bypass or something?


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## argon (29/9/10)

Get yourself an urn fro BIAB mate from what I hear couldnt be easier look at Craftbrewers for one.

Can set strike temp easily, with the built in temp regulator and boils well.

Easily the best solution for BIAB I could think of. And if you decide to give it up one day, can be sold for any purpose non specific to brewing.


Beaten


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## Bribie G (29/9/10)

Definitely go the electricity in whatever form. For a long time brewing career, urns are great because despite their upfront cost of around $250 they more than pay for themselves with simplicity and reliability. When I hear about guys spending $7 on gas for a brew my jaw drops - great if you love the mighty Roar of the Rambo but I'd rather spend the dollars on ingredients. 
They point to the speed of bringing the pot to the boil, but they are mostly (not all of course) 3v or HERMS guys but we BIABers have a distinct time advantage anyway, even if it does take longer for the urn to get up to speed and I reckon we urnies are still ahead. 
Also I use HWS water with no ill effects so can usually dough in after a ten minute powerup while I'm fiddling with other stuff (my water is at about 55).

Edit: I do a mashout at 78 degrees and then when the bag is finally raised, the time the urn spends getting up to a boil is hangin and drainin time. Weighing out hop additions, cleaning any pans and stuff I have used for any adjuncts, and general faffing in the brewery soon passes the time and usualy I'm totally engrossed in doing something and suddenly become aware of the divine boil aroma drifting up my nostrils - hop time


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## QldKev (29/9/10)

Either an urn, or a burner with a pot.

The urn is quite, and all in one. Generally you are limited to smaller kettle sizes 30 or 40L.

The lpg burner will get you more heat quickly and allows a 50L kettle. Last time I measured it I got about 8 batchs from a bottle. Since then I have updated my burners to be more powerful and rate them at around 5 batches per bottle; maybe I get more but haven't taken note. So still under $5 per batch for lpg.

QldKev


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## brett mccluskey (29/9/10)

I use my 220kg house bottle of lpg for my burners.$34 exchange for a 9kg,$90 for a house bottle! No comparison :kooi:


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## joshuahardie (29/9/10)

I use an 2400w immersion element.

Biggest drawback is that it struggles to get to a solid boil in adverse conditions.

eg brewing outside in winter, it struggles to get a boil going. Same if the pot is placed on concrete. the ground just seems to absorb a stack of heat.

Inside it works a charm every time, and the time it takes to get to a boil is quite suitable in my opinion.

Your mileage may vary.


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## Bribie G (29/9/10)

toper1 said:


> I use my 220kg house bottle of lpg for my burners.$34 exchange for a 9kg,$90 for a house bottle! No comparison :kooi:


Brilliant move, why don't more people do that, I wonder? Is house gas different to LPG? I always thought that the BBQ bottles were Propane and that the house bottles were propane/methane or was that in the UK? If you are using the same burner then I guess not. Also, if on gas, then I expect if your brewery is anywhere near your kitchen a gasfitter could run out a dedicated line for a fairly standard charge.


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## brett mccluskey (29/9/10)

I live a few miles out of town and i'm not on natural gas ,so I have a spare bottle on the back verandah for summer brewing(cooler) and in winter i brew on the front verandah(sunshine!) To my understanding,in the country all the gas is the same.propane or butane.It costs too much to send2 tankers.Same with LPG.The same tanker that fills the car gas at servos fills the BIG gas bottles too :beer:


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## MarkBastard (29/9/10)

beernorks said:


> yeah ...all my bar setup is in my garage that opens straight out into the back yard.
> I have power outside .
> 
> What sort of urn ..I have seen a few on ebay but am not sure if they will get up a rolling boil for an hour.
> Do they have a thermostat bypass or something?



Get a Crown urn from craft brewer. Get 1m of their recommended silicone hosing for racking from the urn into a cube (I'm presuming you'll be no-chilling). The tube slips over the end of the Crowns tap and sits on perfectly. Couldn't be easier.

As for which urn to get, I like my concealed element one but some people don't and prefer exposed element.

If you're brewing outside maybe the exposed element one will be safer.


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## Rodolphe01 (29/9/10)

I went electric for the small foot print of the gear required and the simplicity.

I was worried gas ends up bulky in that you need a bottle, hose, regulator, stand, etc. Also gas seems to have a degree of stuffing about, how many threads come up re broken jets, sooty smoke, poor performance and so on.

Another advantage of electric is that you can use a timer to get your water nice and hot while you are still in bed and you can dough in straight away  

I find with my exposed element crown urn I get a rolling boil, but not a furious one, I assume it is acceptable though (~14%). I have it insulated with a triple layer of camping mats (24mm total). I have only used it at night, so not sure what impact the cooler ambient is having.


Edit:

Another advanage with electric is you can insulate quite freely without fear of setting things ablaze. This is handy if you are BIAB in particular, in that you don't need to add the insulation (assuming you needed to insulate) once you've heated your water as you may need to do if using a burner.


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## Nick JD (29/9/10)

Electricity is CHEAP! 

15c per kilowatt hour ... running a 3000W element for 2 hours costs *90c*.

Yup, 90c.


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## Rodolphe01 (29/9/10)

hey hey hey, but if what the 6 o'clock news tells me is correct, that figure may jump up to $1.12 in a few years...


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## Nick JD (29/9/10)

Rudi 101 said:


> hey hey hey, but if what the 6 o'clock news tells me is correct, that figure may jump up to $1.12 in a few years...



Damn! I was going to spend that 22c on somethin' noice for the missus.


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## ekul (29/9/10)

Toper1, where do you get such bottles? $90 for one of them would be sweet as! Its just over twice the cost of a 8.5kg refill ($40), but over 20 times the capacity. 

EDITED TO ADD~ I just did some quick reading and apparently house gas and bbq gas are two different things. Do you notice any difference in performance? I just read that a volume of lpg (house) producing 1000BTU would require less than half the amount of propane (bbq) to produce 1000btus.
It still works out cheaper!

What kind of burner are you running?

Anyone know of any safety issues with using lpg in propane appliances? I'm going to seriously look into this, sick of paying so much for gas!

thanks toper1


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## felten (29/9/10)

The burner sizes are different so you have to buy one thats specific to the gas you are using. Most places have mongolian burners that are one, or the other, not sure about the other types


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## The_Duck (29/9/10)

Hi All,

As the son of someone senior in the gas industry I can tell you a few things:

1. There are generally 2 types of gas used for domestic purposes - LPG (Liquid Petroleum gas) and Natural Gas
2. LPG is pretty much your standard BBQ gas. Sold in many bottle sizes including hugeass tanks you see at petrol stations.
3. Natural Gas is a different chemical makeup but you can change the jets on a burner and switch to natural gas with little fuss. This is not easily compressible and is only really used in that form in the automotive industry (Sydney Busses especially).
4. I suspect that "house gas" you refer to is "natural gas".

If you get setup at home with a natural gas burner it will be generally cheaper than electricity to do the same job. 

Having just bought a burner myself, I weighed up the different gas types but just did not have the $ or contacts that could plumb in a natural gas point in the garage for brewing. It is on the cards... but not just yet.

Also... LPG and Propane are the same thing.


Duck


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## QldKev (29/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Electricity is CHEAP!
> 
> 15c per kilowatt hour ... running a 3000W element for 2 hours costs *90c*.
> 
> Yup, 90c.




Time is expensive. I know this is a hobby and we should not take time into the key considerations; but a shorter brew day means more opportunities when I can brew.

Also we are mixing BIAB & 3V here. I think both electricity and lpg offers benefits over each other, you have to pick which is best for your environment.

Often at work if all is quite I decide to knock of at lunch time and go home to do a brew. So no timer has been setup to have water up to temp for when I get home. I get home, setup and fill up the pots (remember I run dual BIAG) with water and hit the gas. By the time I've measured out my grain and milled it (about 15-20mins) the water is up to temp. With electricity I would need 4 x 2400w elements in each pot to do the same. Also not only a time saving here, but add the extra time it would take to get from mashout up to the boil. I've saved basically an hour from my brew day compared to when I used a standard 3ring burner.

I'm not knocking electricity; it is cheaper to run, ability to insulate the pots without burning it, it is quite (something I wish my burners were) and throws off a lot less heat. Ask anyone who has seen my system running the amount of heat it throws off with both burners running, not so good when you live in Queensland and want to brew under a patio/in a car port. Also with electricity it is easier to throw in a controller to get your temps exact, very important when thinking about HERMS.

So if we compare $1 against $5 per batch for the convenience and the time factor, lpg currently wins for me with my BIAB setup. Also in my house I cant draw too much power from it; 4800w is about the limit I can use and it will cost big $ to get more power wired into the main fuse panel. 

I've have been thinking since I already have some stc-1000 controllers and elements ready for my 3V, that I should set up the elements into my current pots. If I then provided decent heat shielding around the cords etc, I could still also run a lpg burner underneath. This way if I have planned to brew ahead of time I can dial up a temp on the controller have it ready for when Im there. If I decide to do a last minute brew I can just hit the lpg and get my water up to temp quickly. If this works out I may also use the same setup for my HLT when I go 3V. Use the elec + lpg to get close to temp, and then let the controller/elec get it to the exact temp. This would save the need to run multiple elements into the HLT for a quick startup.

QldKev


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## Nick JD (29/9/10)

QldKev said:


> Time is expensive.



Not where I buy it.


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## under (29/9/10)

:icon_offtopic: Can italian spirals run on natural gas?


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## under (29/9/10)

Also anyone know the prices on rental and refill on these 45kg bottles. I think there is Supagas and elgas locally.


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## brett mccluskey (29/9/10)

i get my gas bottles from the local ELGAS distributor/servoThanks for the info about gas,duck.I've heard it several times on ABC radio that the gas in the country areas are ALL the same,propane,butane,or lpg Like i said,it's too expensive to send 2 tankers to fill up different tanks,so it's all the same.My burners work quite well.I can't tell any difference between swap'n'go gas and the 220kg's


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## Acasta (29/9/10)

How much would it cost to fit a 50L kettle with enough elements for a boil?
EDIT: preferably weldless.


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## argon (29/9/10)

Acasta said:


> How much would it cost to fit a 50L kettle with enough elements for a boil?
> EDIT: preferably weldless.




Craftbrewers sell 2200w SS weldless elements for under $40 each. i have 1 in my HLT and can get a weak boil of around 40L in over an hour from room temp. Planning to get 2 more of these and put them in the kettle. I reckon it'll get a pretty strong boil. Have both of them on a tempmate or something to maintain a rolling boil without flogging it too hard.

So for $80 you could put together an electric kettle... just make sure you connect them to separate circuits if your current electrical system can't handle the 4400w load.


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## schooey (29/9/10)

Umm...gas must be a lot cheaper in country Vic than it is in NSW or the cylinders are only the standard 45kg household cylinders? They're about 1.3-1.4m high and about 400 dia? One of those costs me $90 for a swap out.... The 225kg cylinders are the big mothers at the servo...


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## Acasta (29/9/10)

Very nice, i saw G+Gs for about 60, but this seems pretty good. How would you rig the temp mate if you are going to have two separate circuits?


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## argon (29/9/10)

I'd probably just have one on full guts and the other on the tempmate set above boiling temp. Then hopefully the one on the tempmate would turn off as needed to maintain the correct boil... Would take a bit of tweaking though to get vigour right.

Bit of a stab in the dark, cause I haven't fully looked into it but sounds achievable to me. 

Anyone else?


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## Acasta (29/9/10)

Sounds pretty good, as long as the single coil wouldn't over boil on its own.


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## argon (29/9/10)

Yep... Then if the single element did the job I guess you wouldn't need the second one. Or at least be able to turn it completely off and have it there only for fast ramping up to the boil.


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## Acasta (29/9/10)

Yeah, waiting for the boil seems like an annoyance. Im assuming your going to no-chill still, do you worry about loss of fresh hop character?


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## manticle (29/9/10)

beernorks said:


> So if I want to keep doing BIAB I need to do it outside the house....the smell was too much for the missus.
> 
> That doesn't bother me in the slightest though.
> 
> ...



I use an immersion heater for my HLT and gas for my kettle. If my gas runs out I can finish the boil with my immersion heater. My burner brings the kettle to the boil quicker. If there's a power shortage I can heat my HLT with the burner.

I did not buy both at once but having both is really handy. Immersion heaters are also good for step mashes and raising temp if you are a couple of degrees short.


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## white.grant (29/9/10)

under said:


> :icon_offtopic: Can italian spirals run on natural gas?



No

Mongolians can though


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## under (29/9/10)

Meh. Im thinking a 45kg is a good investment anyways.  That and a bigger pot. Or maybe even going the esky and using my 50l keg.


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## The_Duck (29/9/10)

The spiral burner COULD be setup to use Natural gas by boring out the jets by a bit to allow for a greater flow rate required for Natural gas to burn.

Not exactly practical I grant you. A mongolian would be much easier. 

Keefer Bros in Melbourne offer their burners with natural gas jets OR LPG jets. Many others likewise.


Duck


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## Rodolphe01 (29/9/10)

all this talk about gas burners, size of bottles, types of jet, types of gas, cost of gas, etc is making me glad i went with electric (as stated in my previous post) - just plug the damn thing in


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## felten (30/9/10)

fire is always better h34r:


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## QldKev (30/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Not where I buy it.



I worked out for the cost of the amount of LPG I use per batch, how many minutes to earn the $$ back. I'm not spending an extra hour on brew day to save 2 or $3. 

QldKev


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## jbirbeck (30/9/10)

I use a combo at the moment of natural gas (on a 4 ring burner) on the HLT, electricity to heat the HLT quicker and get the kettle to the boil quicker, and LPG which does the kettle as the 4 ring on Ng doesn't have the grunt to get the wort to the boil quickly or well...it will do it but it takes ages and most often needs to be covered.

I have considered dropping the LPG and going with the NG and electricity on the kettle as well. I like the combo methods as I can cut down on the time taken for brewing. Two young kids with a third on the way - time is the most valuable thing in my brewhaus...don't give rats as to whether it costs more to do this or that. I do love having NG and electricity working together because they never run out...the electricity is even better now the solar panels are on the roof.


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## Nick JD (30/9/10)

QldKev said:


> I worked out for the cost of the amount of LPG I use per batch, how many minutes to earn the $ back. I'm not spending an extra hour on brew day to save 2 or $3.
> 
> QldKev



An extra hour?


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## flano (30/9/10)

anyway ...
probably go with the urn.

I came across that thread where people did the bypass on the cut out switch and stuffed their urns.

any updates.

Can an urn with no mod get the rolling boil going ok?


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## QldKev (30/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> An extra hour?



Yep, if I had a 3000w element it would take me at least 25mins longer to hit mash in temp, and then another 25min extra to get to the boil.

QldKev


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## QldKev (30/9/10)

beernorks said:


> anyway ...
> probably go with the urn.
> 
> I came across that thread where people did the bypass on the cut out switch and stuffed their urns.
> ...



Having never actually used an urn, but from what I have read on here, the answer is yes. 
But wrap it up and keep it out of the cold; and be prepared to wait a bit longer to get to mash in temps, and also to the boil.

QldKev


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## wynnum1 (30/9/10)

There is going to be a big rise in the price of gas when lpg for cars is taxed


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## Nick JD (30/9/10)

QldKev said:


> Yep, if I had a 3000w element it would take me at least 25mins longer to hit mash in temp, and then another 25min extra to get to the boil.
> 
> QldKev



I'm used to a 2500W element working on 16L in a thin pot with a lid. I didn't realise others using electric elements were having to wait so long.


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## QldKev (30/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> I'm used to a 2500W element working on 16L in a thin pot with a lid. I didn't realise others using electric elements were having to wait so long.



Good point, if you are doing full volume mash with BIAB you have basically twice the water that you are using. 
So with 16L and 2500w it would take about 25mins to get to mash in temp (depending on starting water temps etc)
Double the water = 50mins. 

I can get my full volume up to temp in about 15mins.

I assume with your spage water you heat it during the mash time. 
You do a reduced boil volume, also reducing the heating requirement/time to get to the boil.

I think it all comes back to what I said back in the other post
_I think both electricity and lpg offers benefits over each other, you have to pick which is best for your environment._

QldKev


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## Acasta (30/9/10)

Has anyone considered getting mirrors in a dish shape and focusing the suns power onto their brew kettle? Seems cheap and readily available? Maybe not in Melbourne but up in QLD i hear the sun is strong.


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## joshuahardie (30/9/10)

Solar brewing has seen the light of day

eh eh see what I did there....

oh well

Basic Brewing Radio - Solar Brewing

link is to a podcast on the topic
This link also has some info on the topic.


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## MarkBastard (30/9/10)

beernorks said:


> anyway ...
> probably go with the urn.
> 
> I came across that thread where people did the bypass on the cut out switch and stuffed their urns.
> ...



First of all if you get the Crown model with the exposed element or a Birko you won't have any problems like this.

If you do want a concealed element Crown then you MAY have some problems.

I have a Crown with the mod. Before I did my last brew I opened her up to see if there was any 'wearing out' of the element and it still all looked brand new. Not saying that means it's safe but I'm pretty happy to keep using the modified urn for now.

After I'm finished my mash it takes about 30-40 minutes to get to a good boil, but that time is spend draining the bag etc and getting my hop additions weighed out so it doesn't really both me too much.

I wouldn't consider ramping up to temps quicker as a good enough benefit to outweigh having to own a gas bottle and swap it over to get it filled up etc. That'd shit me to tears.


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## ekul (30/9/10)

Acasta- I was pondering using giant magnifying glasses this morning... http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=48353


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## Acasta (30/9/10)

ekul said:


> Acasta- I was pondering using giant magnifying glasses this morning... http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=48353


haha, nice one!


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## sm0902 (30/9/10)

I've had my Birko 40 litre for a few months now. Couldn't be happier. Holds a good rolling boil, and gets to the boil quick enough (under 20 minutes).

Bought from a local Noosa supplier for $305 ...

Interesting to read about the cost per batch. I was a bit worried about this (yet to see an Electricity bill), but if it's only 90c ... perfect.


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## rotten (30/9/10)

I use a 3V system, actually 2V, HLT & Kettle are the same. I looked into gas and the pot, reg, burner etc, too expensive. As an AGer starting out a $100 30l ltr urn from ebay was the way to go. Or countless dollars for Big pot & gas gear. Yes it takes a bit longer to boil, not that much longer though. It's a concealed element & the thermostat is accurate, won't boil dry coz it's either heating or turned off.
Cheers


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## pbrosnan (30/9/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Get a Crown urn from craft brewer. Get 1m of their recommended silicone hosing for racking from the urn into a cube (I'm presuming you'll be no-chilling). The tube slips over the end of the Crowns tap and sits on perfectly. Couldn't be easier.
> 
> As for which urn to get, I like my concealed element one but some people don't and prefer exposed element.
> 
> If you're brewing outside maybe the exposed element one will be safer.


I'm looking at a 40L Crown Urn with concealed element. Have a quote from AllfoodEuipment for $286 delivered to WA. Not a bad price for some new kit. This will replace my 30L kurnel which is starting to look a bit tired. I've probably done about 50 or 60 brews in it and it cost $90. My main reason for changing is just the bigger volume. ANd what's this about bypassing the cutout switch. I did this with my current urn but I wasn't planning to do it with the new one. I expect there's a thread about it somewhere ...


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## flano (1/10/10)

sm0902 said:


> I've had my Birko 40 litre for a few months now. Couldn't be happier. Holds a good rolling boil, and gets to the boil quick enough (under 20 minutes).
> 
> Bought from a local Noosa supplier for $305 ...
> 
> Interesting to read about the cost per batch. I was a bit worried about this (yet to see an Electricity bill), but if it's only 90c ... perfect.




Does birko have the exposed element?

I want to get one just because of the name of it.


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## Bribie G (1/10/10)

I also now have a Crown Exposed element. I can do a double batch by staggering the two urns 30 minutes apart, so there's always plenty going on - I have two timers on the go and while one urn is heating up to boiling, there's always something useful going on in the other urn, and I have heaps to do in between timer beeps anyway. I can crank out a 50L batch in less time than a 3v sparge job with the advantage that I can do two different beers or two the same, and can even dovetail 90min / 60 min mashes or 90min / 60min boils in such a way that heating-up time only becomes a small part of the equation. Major concern being the fact that it tends to do my head in  
Orta do up a spreadsheet for myself


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## yardy (1/10/10)

go gas B)


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## manticle (1/10/10)

How long does your burner take to get 100L of cold wort to the boil yardy? Looks like maybe 3 minutes? 

If it hasn't already taken your whole brewshed to the moon and back in that time.


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## Alex81 (1/10/10)

I am concerned about the effect of the exposed element on the wort. 

should I be?


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## sm0902 (1/10/10)

beernorks said:


> Does birko have the exposed element?
> 
> I want to get one just because of the name of it.




Yes, Birko has an exposed element.




Alex81 said:


> I am concerned about the effect of the exposed element on the wort.
> 
> should I be?





I find - if anything - the exposed element helps with the whirlpool. The element seems to collect the hot-break and other material.

I haven't noticed any change to the final product from when I used the gas stove. I've been making the same Blonde Ale for my wife for a few years now, 3 months with the Birko, and I can't see/taste any difference.


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## insane_rosenberg (1/10/10)

I picked up my Crown 40L w/ concealed element from a local commercial kitchen installer for $264. Don't be afraid to check the stockist list on the crown website and shoot off a few emails.

That was last Friday. I was genuinely surprised how long it took to boil (having never boiled 38L of water before). Dont have the data with me but it was +2 hours. That's indoor with Melbourne town water (feels like 2 degrees, thermometer assures me it's about 14). But after a test run (water only) the heating times go straight into the brew schedule, no more worries. I will be picking up a $10 or $25 timer from Jaycar in the next week or so though. 

Haven't done the mod, no insulation, ambient 20-21 degrees, and I was happy with the rolling boil (once it got there).

Pros:
- Just plugs into the wall.
- Takes up bugger all space in the shed.
- Safe for indoor use.
- Easy to clean.
- Level tube on the outside great for volume measurements (once you've marked out litres).
- Tap, thermostat etc. already fitted.
- 12mth warranty.
- My wife understands it's my passion and doesn't bitch (too much) about the smell.

Cons:
-It's slow.


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