# Frankos Anawbs Experience



## Franko (31/10/06)

G,Day Brewers,

Well finally today came the yellow envelope with a ANAWBS Explanation of why my Labels were not accepted for competition.

The letter reads:
_
Dear Frank

Thankyou for your entries in the label section of ANAWBS 2006.
The Label competion is only open to those entrants who have submitted wine or beer entries in the competition.

Unfortunately we did not recieve any beer or wine entry from you so we could not accept your labels for consideration in the label competition.However, we did request the judges to score your entries so that at least you could get the benefit of their comments about your label designs.

Thankyou again for you entry,hopefully next year you will again enter this competition together with a wine or beer.

Regards,

Label Competion Co-Ordinator_

IMHO

I wish to advise those at the ANAWBS to make there rules of this competition a little clearer in the future as there was no stipulation that a beer or wine needed to be entered for the Competition

It was good enough of the ANAWBS to take my registration money and my label entry money,(mind you entry to the label competion was free if you entered a beer or wine) and to display my entries on the day.
As someone advised me I was going to do very very well if I was eligible ????

Anyhow its all water under the bridge now and for those who wanted to know how the labels went in the judging here are the Results

Franko


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## eric8 (31/10/06)

Franko you got duped brotha!! :angry: . Obviously your labels where too good for them.


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## AndrewQLD (31/10/06)

Nice results there Franko, it's a shame you couldn't recieve the official recognition you deserve, but we all know that your a winner regardless.
I am sure that the organisers will be a little more explicit in their rules next year.

And a big thanks for all the labels you have produced for AHB members, you have raised this hobby another level.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Gerard_M (31/10/06)

From what I can see you will be ineligible next year as you will have lost your amateur status. Time to go pro!
Plus from what I hear you don't bottle anymore  
cheers
Gerard


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## Franko (31/10/06)

Gerard_M said:


> From what I can see you will be ineligible next year as you will have lost your amateur status. Time to go pro!
> Plus from what I hear you don't bottle anymore
> cheers
> Gerard



Thats Right Gerard,
Thankyou very much for helping me see clear in that direction


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## Boozy the clown (31/10/06)

Yes well sorry for the reply with no comment....


Looks like you have been shafted. As someone said earlier, we appreciate your work. Nice scores even if they didn't count. You left out your design for BTC inc, maybe that would have swayed them. No fair, slap one one of your own brews which must be getting up there in quality standards. 

maybe there will be a 'labels only' award. But that being said we dont want pro graphics guys taking a bloke's like yours effort away.

Thanks Franko for everyones stuff you have done. :beer: 





Franko said:


> G,Day Brewers,
> 
> Well finally today came the yellow envelope with a ANAWBS Explanation of why my Labels were not accepted for competition.
> 
> ...


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## poppa joe (31/10/06)

Franko...
Looks like there will be KEG LABELS...
From now on......  
PJ

What Program do you use......
I am learning Paint Shop X...Nowra Tafe...


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## dr K (31/10/06)

said franko:
I wish to advise those at the ANAWBS to make there rules of this competition a little clearer in the future as there was no stipulation that a beer or wine needed to be entered for the Competition

It was good enough of the ANAWBS to take my registration money and my label entry money,(mind you entry to the label competion was free if you entered a beer or wine) and to display my entries on the day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part of the problem with many of these things are that are apparently run by a committee. The committee will always be volunteers and will always look to precedent. There may well have been at some time a cobbled together a consensus semi-legalese (at least in its writing) conditions of entry that the current members feel they stick by.
Presented with an abberation, say labels not attached to bottles, they, rather than consider the abberation rationally with proper regard to argument they simply say..sorry...non-conforming and thus disqualify you. Spanish Referees some might say..I would say more so that these entities certainly have a strong direction, not dissimilar to that of a dog chasing its tail.

Having seen your work posted here..all I can say is...next year you might send, rather than bottle labels designer bathroom tissue.

Frunk >


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## Kai (31/10/06)

I'd say it's a regrettable administrative error on the part of the committee, perhaps if you contact them they might refund you your entry fee?


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## Screwtop (31/10/06)

Franko, mate I reckon you should be proud not pissed. The labels all scored well, that's the point of entering comps, not the bling. But I still hope things change and you cart home a truckload next year, you deserve it.

Cheers


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## tangent (31/10/06)

mate, great labels, but not the comp for them. 
must have been a side line to the judging of amateur beers and wines, and some bright spark threw in labels on the side. not expecting for anyone to focus soley on the labels.
if you're not getting job offers from label companies i'd be surprised, but no shiny things for you so it seems.
bad luck but great work :beer:


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## Linz (31/10/06)

Screwtop said:


> Franko, mate I reckon you should be proud not pissed. The labels all scored well, that's the point of entering comps, not the bling.
> 
> Cheers




So what do you hang on the bar room wall????

some DIRTY little letter??

Especially when it stated that the label comp was free with a bottle...and Frank PAID rego and entry fees to cover the fact he wasnt sending a bottle??

And they've kept his money; ( HERES THE KICKER) and they also kept the LABELS that were not accepted for competition, BUT displyed them for the comps benefit 

I reckon a FULL REFUND(inc postage costs) and return of the labels is the LEAST they could do....otherwise a comp to steer clear of


done!

rant off


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## therook (1/11/06)

Exactly what Linz said.....

Full refund and return of Private Property

Rook


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## Tseay (1/11/06)

Franko- BYO magazine has a label comp each year (March April I think). Why not jump right over the top, and go international !


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## johnno (1/11/06)

Linz said:


> and they also kept the LABELS that were not accepted for competition, BUT displyed them for the comps benefit




Hope they have your permission Franko. If not this is a blatant breach of copyright.

oh and dont forget everyone. Put your entries in for anawbs 2007.........and 2008.............and 2009................and etc etc


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## Screwtop (1/11/06)

I am positive that no doubt exists within the AHB community of Franko's ability or creativity, we have all enjoyed and in the case of some (myself included) have personally benefited from his creative genius. But in all fairness, before slamming the ANAWBS please consider all of the details below from ANAWBS and note that a registration fee is payable, irrespective of fees paid for entry  into each category. As I understand it entry into the label competion attracted no entry fee. Moderators please note: I have not sought the permission of ANAWBS to post this information from their website. 

Label Competition
This year we continue the free Label Competition. If you submit a wine or beer entry, you may also submit your personal bottle label - simply stick it on a the label competition entry form. There will be 2 Classes, Z1 Traditional and Z2 Modern. Trophies and certificates will be awarded for First, Second and Third place for each class. 


CONDITIONS OF ENTRY
1. The competition is open to all interested Amateur Winemakers and Brewers. An Amateur
shall be a person unable under State or Commonwealth law to dispose of wine or other alcoholic
beverage for profit or gain.
2. Only amateur or homemade products may be entered, and all entries must be submitted in the
makers name.
3. Each exhibitor must complete the official registration and entry form which, along with fees,
must accompany the entry.
4. Each wine entry shall be submitted in one standard 750ml, or one 375ml (half) bottle
appropriate to the class. Liqueur entries may use a smaller bottle but must supply at least 100ml
of liqueur. Beer entries must supply a minimum of 500ml, normally a 750ml bottle but two
375ml bottles or similar are acceptable.
5. Each entry must only be labelled with the official label or a photocopy.
6. There is no limit to the number of entries an exhibitor may submit, except that no one wine or
beer may be entered in more than one class.
7. The Convenor may move an entry to another class if it is deemed that the entry is Out of
Class.
8. The Convenor may disqualify an entry if it is considered the entry is falsely represented. The
exhibitor of any such entry may have all other entries disqualified from the competition.
9. An exhibitor shall be bound by the decisions of the Show Committee and Judges. No disputes
will be entered into.
10. All entries and fees shall become the property of the Australian National Amateur Wine and
Beer Show.
11. The Show Committee will not be held responsible for the loss of, or damage to an entry, entry
form, or fees. Nor shall they be responsible for entries submitted in the wrong class or
incorrectly labelled
12. In the event of a lack of entries in a particular class, those entries will be included in the nearest
appropriate class or an amalgamated class.
13. The Show Committee reserves the right to alter these Conditions of Entry at any time without
notice
14. All exhibitors shall be deemed to have read and accepted these Conditions of Entry and
Schedule of Classes


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## warrenlw63 (1/11/06)

Why do I get a sinking feeling that this thread will be up to around 20 pages by this time next week?  

Warren -


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## Beerpig (1/11/06)

Hmmmmm

Franko - Unlucky, but it looks like a beer or wine had to entered to be eligible for label comp

ANAWBS - Bad form to keep the money & also display the labels that were ruled out of contention

Have we learned something?

Time to turn the page

Cheers


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## Batz (1/11/06)

As you all know I entered one of my labels,of course it is Franko's creation.
This won a award,I am going to forward the medal and certificate to Franko as I believe he deserves them,well done Franko !
The small trophy will go into my bar room,Franko your welcome to come and see it anytime you like and have a few Batz beers as well  

I don't think we should be too hard on the organizers over this,I know it's very disappointing for Franko but please remember the work these guys put in.
We all know Franko's labels kick arse and Iam looking forward to seeing them in the BYO magazine.

Cheers
Batz

PS
Franko please PM me your address again


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## Franko (1/11/06)

Well said Batz,

Its all water under the bridge now guys Im looking foward to sending a few entries into the BYO magazine comp next year.
I was just very dissapointed that they took my cash and displayed my work for their own benifit.
Dont know if I will enter in that comp again we will have to see.

So with all that said heres,
to looking at heaps of new labels/logos coming to the AHB community shortly
Cheers all
Franko


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## jayse (1/11/06)

Beerpig said:


> Have we learned something?



Only thing learnt here is that some people didn't/haven't read the rules.






Screwtop said:


> 14. All exhibitors shall be deemed to have read and accepted these Conditions of Entry and
> Schedule of Classes


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## johnno (1/11/06)

Franko said:


> I was just very dissapointed that they took my cash and displayed my work for their own benifit.



Due to this term, kindly posted by Screwtop in the terms and conditions/rules, they can actually display your work as they now OWN it.




> 10. All entries and fees shall become the property of the Australian National Amateur Wine and
> Beer Show.



Yes, quite poor form for an amateur comp.

I never enter anything with a condition like this in it for this very reason. I would be horrified spending hours on artistic creativity and then giving it away like that.


Better luck in the future Franko.


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## Boozy the clown (1/11/06)

I think that they now own the physical labels that Franko has sent them but I doubt that they would own the image.

Franko would still have the copyright for the intellectual work. They wouldn't be able to turn around and start selling the things and I don't think they would have anything like that in mind.

I think the 'we own all submissions' is just to try and prevent people asking for their stuff to be sent back, that would be a nightmare for the organisers who by the looks of it have run a pretty good show.


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## warrenlw63 (1/11/06)

Boozy the clown said:


> Franko would still have the copyright for the intellectual work.t have run a pretty good show.




Would he? :unsure: 

I'm sure Harvey Comics would like to know that when they see the unauthorised use of Casper The Friendly Ghost on the Labels? I'm sure there's other breaches too.  

I'm sure Franko sought their permission though.  

Warren -


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## tdh (1/11/06)

Ripper labels Franko (apart from the German spelling breach, should read - *Schwarzbier*_)_


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## Voosher (1/11/06)

tdh said:


> Ripper labels Franko (apart from the German spelling breach, should read - *Schwarzbier*_)_


_

Probably cost the half-point.
Begs the question; who was the other judge????
_


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## Linz (1/11/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Boozy the clown said:
> 
> 
> > Franko would still have the copyright for the intellectual work.t have run a pretty good show.
> ...




I questioned Franko on that one too.....apparently has a remarkable likeness, but is not the same....

Casper has a rounder head and is not as long...


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## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (1/11/06)

Linz said:


> I questioned Franko on that one too.....apparently has a remarkable likeness, but is not the same....
> 
> Casper has a rounder head and is not as long...



 

My God! Your right Linz.

It looks so much like Casper and yet somethings definitely different.........................


I KNOW! I KNOW!!!!..........................its the eyes! CASPER has Blue Eyes!





That would stand up in Court I reckon.



 

ATOMT


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## Linz (1/11/06)

hehehehe B)


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## Screwtop (1/11/06)

Voosher said:


> Probably cost the half-point.
> Begs the question; who was the other judge????




Spooky The Tuff Little Ghost, maybe?


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## Linz (1/11/06)

jayse said:


> Beerpig said:
> 
> 
> > Have we learned something?
> ...


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## *hop*cone* (1/11/06)

I wouldn't be too concerned Franko, we all know how bloody good you are. 

Any way I don't believe comps to be fool proof for the most anyway. I once observed a friend... who shall remain nameless... an AHB member also. Repackage 2 Little Creatures Pale ale stubbies into a Tall neck and added a bit of sugar and yeast for carbonation. What do you know he came 4th for the American Pale Ale style in an un-named Comp. It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum, but also in this case it proves cheats never prosper either.


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## Batz (1/11/06)

Screwtop said:


> Spooky The Tuff Little Ghost, maybe?



Nothing like Casper
He was a friendly ghost right?


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## Stuster (2/11/06)

*HoP*CoNe* said:


> Any way I don't believe comps to be fool proof for the most anyway. I once observed a friend... who shall remain nameless... an AHB member also. Repackage 2 Little Creatures Pale ale stubbies into a Tall neck and added a bit of sugar and yeast for carbonation. What do you know he came 4th for the American Pale Ale style in an un-named Comp. It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum, but also in this case it proves cheats never prosper either.



Maybe it shows that LCPA is a good beer.


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## Batz (2/11/06)

Stuster said:


> *HoP*CoNe* said:
> 
> 
> > Any way I don't believe comps to be fool proof for the most anyway. I once observed a friend... who shall remain nameless... an AHB member also. Repackage 2 Little Creatures Pale ale stubbies into a Tall neck and added a bit of sugar and yeast for carbonation. What do you know he came 4th for the American Pale Ale style in an un-named Comp. It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum, but also in this case it proves cheats never prosper either.
> ...




Or not so good once someone adds sugar


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## goatherder (2/11/06)

Batz said:


> Stuster said:
> 
> 
> > *HoP*CoNe* said:
> ...




And oxidises it by opening, pouring and resealing it.


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## BrissyBrew (2/11/06)

An interesting thread to say the least.

Having sat in on the judging for the mashmaster mashpaddle I have to comment on the experience of the judges and the usefulness of BJCP judging guidelines. 

Two judging independently scoring beers within 1.5 to 1/2 a point within each other, consistently, hard to ask for much more. Sometimes the final scores would be exactly the same. For a scale of 50 points an average variance of 1 to 3% over 26 odd beers (the number of beers might be off one or two beers) is nothing. All the data I have seen (from large multinational food companies) shows that expert sensory tasting panels can only at their best achieve such a small variance between judges. 

As an aside MashMaster is considering running a comp to design a new mashmaster logo. It might allow the artistic component of AHB to exercise their competitive nature. But more on that at a later date.


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## Tseay (2/11/06)

*HoP*CoNe* said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned Franko, we all know how bloody good you are.
> 
> Any way I don't believe comps to be fool proof for the most anyway. I once observed a friend... who shall remain nameless... an AHB member also. Repackage 2 Little Creatures Pale ale stubbies into a Tall neck and added a bit of sugar and yeast for carbonation. What do you know he came 4th for the American Pale Ale style in an un-named Comp. It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum, but also in this case it proves cheats never prosper either.



I am afraid to say, that the above says more about your friend than the judging. I can imagine the complexities of running a comp the size of ANWABS. Somethings will fall between the cracks , because we are trying to run comps with very limited resources and we all have jobs etc to look after. I can understand Frankos frustration, however I'm sure it could be put right with an appropriate response from the organisers.


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## shotduck (2/11/06)

*HoP*CoNe* said:


> It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum...


I agree wholeheartedly. I remember entering an infected lager as a belgian pale in one comp, just for a laugh. It came fourth, with a score of 118 (or thereabouts), and comments such as "great, tart finish" and "excellent effort". I guess it comes down to personal tastes for many "untrained" volunteers - not that I am denegrating anyone who gives up their time to judge a beer comp, it just seems that we have a long way to go before our homebrew competitions can truly rival some international counterparts.


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## Ross (2/11/06)

*HoP*CoNe* said:


> Any way I don't believe comps to be fool proof for the most anyway. I once observed a friend... who shall remain nameless... an AHB member also. Repackage 2 Little Creatures Pale ale stubbies into a Tall neck and added a bit of sugar and yeast for carbonation. What do you know he came 4th for the American Pale Ale style in an un-named Comp. It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum, but also in this case it proves cheats never prosper either.



I know this has gone a bit off topic, but don't really see what you're eluding to here. Are you claiming it should have got 1st place if judged correctly? I'd personally be dissapointed if my APA got judged behind Little Creatures & there are many brewers making finer APA's than I am. LC is a great commercial offering, but we as craft brewers have the ability to produce beers better than any commercial offering, especially one that's been rebottled & primed with sugar. I'm dismayed that anyone would be that shallow to try & get accolades for something they didn't brew, what's the point? Not like there's huge prizes at stake & he's going to look pretty damn stupid when friends come over to try his award winning brews...

++++

& to get back on topic, bad luck Franko, but to me it is fairly clear that it was a comp for labels off entered beers. 
I think the gripes could have been better dealt with, through correspondance with the organisers & if no satisfactory outcome achieved, (as in refund of entry requested & refused, or whatever), then sure, bring it to the forum. Remember, these are amatuer comps run by people giving up their free time for no reward other than satisfaction of seeing a job well done. Negative feedback like this, made public before trying to reach an amicable understanding/settlement, IMO does more damage than good to all parties.
I make stuff up's in my business, but the customer comes to me first & we endeavour to resolve the problem. If the problem isn't resolved to the customers satisfaction, then I'd expect to see adverse publicity posted here - but if the first I knew about it, was seeing a post here, I'd be pretty dissapointed...


cheers Ross...


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## DJR (2/11/06)

*HoP*CoNe* said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned Franko, we all know how bloody good you are.
> 
> Any way I don't believe comps to be fool proof for the most anyway. I once observed a friend... who shall remain nameless... an AHB member also. Repackage 2 Little Creatures Pale ale stubbies into a Tall neck and added a bit of sugar and yeast for carbonation. What do you know he came 4th for the American Pale Ale style in an un-named Comp. It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum, but also in this case it proves cheats never prosper either.



Hmmm... the honour system is alive and well obviously  

LCPA is good, but i'm surprised that somebody would go to that length to prove a point.... Why would you bother when you can get a much more flavoursome beer with loads of aroma from using nice fresh hops.

I wonder what would happen if this said person was to get a couple of longnecks of SNPA and re-package it!


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## johnno (2/11/06)

I see nothing wrong at all with bringing a discussion like this to a forum.

Thats what forums are for. Discussing things in a civilised manner.


johnno


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## warrenlw63 (2/11/06)

All depends really Johnno.

I understand where you're coming from but I'm inclined to think that this thread's started out as one person's arse-bleed that's gone totally OT, particularly now people are quoting potential skullduggery in HB comps without any real proof and I'm inclined to agree with what Ross just said. 

Personally I think the pure HB content of it has to be questioned.

I've never seen too many brewers make beer from sour grapes. 

Perhaps better on a wine forum. :lol: 

Warren -


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## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (2/11/06)

Off topic or not. Anyone who enters a "Joke" entry into a craft brewing competition, whether a rebottled commercial beer, an infected beer or whatever, does the home brewing / Craft brewing fraternity NO FAVOURS. :angry: 

I doubt Franko would be laughing at this even though I understand his frustrations regarding his disqualification.

Anyone who puts a fake entry into a comp and doesnt take into account that these are not run by a big multinational or commercial brewing company is undermining our craft unecessarily. If you dont like the comps....dont enter them, but dont sabotage them.

ATOMT


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## Screwtop (2/11/06)

The Shot Duck said:


> *HoP*CoNe* said:
> 
> 
> > It proves some people are not really great judges and wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the bum...
> ...




I do not understand what drives people to do the above, take an infected beer and pay to enter it into a comp in an attempt to fool the judges, then accept the award given??????? 

Would have thought the satisfaction would have been in catching out the judges. In which case you could have gotten your jollies by bringing to their notice the fact that you "Einstien" had caught them out. You could have then also returned your award and requested your entry payment be refunded.

And what sort of flea denegrates amateur judges for not being able to detect a cheats entry in a comp, supporting the cheat. 

For FS it's time this was airlocked. This thread started out as Franko's ANAWBS experience which we all know to be fact not like the above drivvle.


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## Tseay (2/11/06)

On the subject of International Comps and local comps, last year I sent a Wheat Beer to the US for judging in a major club comp. The same beer was judged in the 2005 State comp. Apart from the yanks being a bit more descriptive in their comments, there was no appreciable differences between the judging standards bewteen the State and The US. 

Judges have to start off somewhere and it is the responsibility of the chief judge and more "wiser souls" to guide new comers to the art. Helpfull feedback to the comp organisers helps us all.

It up to the craft if you want to "light a candle or curse the darkness". Don't like comps. here's an idea, run one yourself !


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## shotduck (2/11/06)

AngelTearsOnMyTongue said:


> Off topic or not. Anyone who enters a "Joke" entry into a craft brewing competition, whether a rebottled commercial beer, an infected beer or whatever, does the home brewing / Craft brewing fraternity NO FAVOURS.
> 
> I doubt Franko would be laughing at this even though I understand his frustrations regarding his disqualification.
> 
> ...





While I agree with your sentiment - to a point - I actually think my infected entry did do this particular competition a big favour. I informed the organisers after the event and, after a good laugh at the absurdity of the situation, they decided to improve their standard for choosing judges in the future. It may have been a rather unorthodox, and admittedly, unintentional, method of improving the calibre of judges - but it worked, from what I could tell.



One of my biggest beefs with competitions is the apparent ability for anyone to approach the judges and say "I brew beer... let me judge". I have helped to organise a few competitions and judged in several state level comps and unfortunately it appears that in a desperate bid to get all the judging over in the minimal time necessary, many organisers simply pull in as many "potential judges" as possible without paying heed to the need for experienced tasters to make up the bulk of the judging.



It seems to be a prevalent belief that beer judging is in some way inferior to wine judging and is essentially easier, therefore the skill level neednt be as high. I find that there is as much depth of character in beer as there is in wine and commend the US based BJCP in their highly successful efforts to raise the bar in beer judging. I would love to see this program adopted more fully in Australian beer competitions, rather than the impotent lip-service they seem to give the name, and would congratulate anyone who would take the time needed to bring this method, including a means of properly training potential judges, to Australia.



Unfortunately, the Australian homebrew hobby is only just starting to break out of its infancy, and considering the added hindrance of the cost of completing such a program, it may be many years yet before a large fraternity of Australian BCJP judges becomes more than just a pipe-dream. I know that if I had the money spare, I would complete such a program rather than wasting the money of trying to come up with the next gadget that will improve the efficiency of my backyard brewery by an entire 1.3%.



Hmm it appears I have gone off on a tangent to a post that had already taken such a turn I apologise.



Oh, and screwtop the beer came fourth not an award place. And yes, if the beer had won an award, then I would have ensured it went to the rightful place winner instead, including all accolades. As I said above, I did inform the organisers and I am certain that if I hadnt offered any acquired awards back, they would have demanded them at any rate. As it stands, I also took out first and third place in the same category for a rather delectable dubbel and a tripel, respectively.



And for those of you who think I was denigrating amateur competitions, then re-read this post. If that still fails to satisfy, then brew yourself up a sense of humour.


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## Kai (2/11/06)

The Shot Duck said:


> While I agree with your sentiment - to a point - I actually think my infected entry did do this particular competition a big favour. I informed the organisers after the event and, after a good laugh at the absurdity of the situation, they decided to improve their standard for choosing judges in the future. It may have been a rather unorthodox, and admittedly, unintentional, method of improving the calibre of judges - but it worked, from what I could tell.



How much like a belgian pale did it taste?


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## shotduck (2/11/06)

Kai said:


> How much like a belgian pale did it taste?


Not much at all. Very medicinal and sour. In fact, I threw the remainder of the batch away. Believe me when I say if it had tasted like a belgian pale, it would NEVER have ended up lawn fertiliser  .


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## Ross (2/11/06)

This turn is an interesting thread in its own right, could a moderator split it please?

Cheers Ross....


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## homebrewworld.com (2/11/06)

I know that if I had the money spare, I would complete such a program rather than wasting the money of trying to come up with the next gadget that will improve the efficiency of my backyard brewery by an entire 1.3%.


My Bjcp course cost me sweet bugger all ( say Sixty bucks and time )
So what are you waiting for........ :blink:
Oh...so to keep this thread on topic, i hope you told em to get 'Far Kurnelled Franko' !


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## Franko (2/11/06)

Ok guys enoughs enough
its getting way off topic Im 1000% over it
l
lets nip this thread in the butt
Frank


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## pint of lager (2/11/06)

Done.


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