# QldKev's New Biab With Internal Rims



## QldKev

Some may have noticed about me talking about my new system I've been toying with for single batches, called my 'experimental system'. While I love using my 3V, the smallest batch I've done so far is a 69L brew, great for bulk house beer but not so good for things like a weizen or lambic where 1 cube is plenty, and not good for a new recipe idea trial run. I wanted the system to make brewing as easy as possible, to keep the fun in it. I though about going back to a normal BIAB setup, but really wanted to do step mashes because that's what I do on the main system and in recipe development I want to emulate on this system. I looked at the Braumeister builds, whilst excellent systems was a bit more complex than I wanted. Even back in March 2010 I was talking about BIAB with HERMS, so I though why not proceed. Whilst I prefer HERMS over RIMS, I though an internal RIMS setup can double as the heating element for the boil. The build began. Most parts were older parts from my other brewery builds, all I purchased was a pump, one T piece and a 15" pizza tray. 

Today I'm running my first brew in the system 

BIAB bag sitting above a false bottom to ensure the bag cannot touch the heating element. 




Inital recirc, while I build the return arm. Temp probe just shoved in outlet.



Return arm in place. Here you can see there are 2 return lines, one from the top for the recirc, and one below the false bottom to keep the wort moving past the element. The pump moved about 14Lmin, with about 4L returning from the top and the rest to the bottom.



Pic showing wort clarified up nicely. The return arm is almost an inch under wort level and looks crystal clear.



To keep things easy the system is a no-sparge system. But what wort drains from the bag is thrown back into the kettle, so you could argue it's a 2V system as I have a bucket to catch the runnings from the bag. Today I did a simple Aussie Gold brew following the normal stepped mash I use for it. I hit 86.2% pre-boil efficiency, which is virtually the same I get on my 3V, so it will make expectations of the beer pretty good for converting to the bigger system; I'm pretty happy with that. 



QldKev


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## Dan Pratt

Nice work Kev, looks like a nifty little rig> 

What was your step mash schedule?

Also, can you show us a look at the pump plumbing too?

Dan


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## QldKev

Pratty1 said:


> Nice work Kev, looks like a nifty little rig>
> 
> What was your step mash schedule?
> 
> Also, can you show us a look at the pump plumbing too?
> 
> Dan


Here's the technical specification I drew for the flow :lol:


For a better view of the plumbing check it out on  and 





The mash schedule was
60 - 5mins (normally I use 55, I chickened out not wanting a burnt RIMS element on the first brew)
62 - 45mins
68 - 20mins (normally I would be more 72, but didn't want too full of a beer)
78 - 5mins

QldKev


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## QldKev

Had a play with the 1V today. 

I've added a temp probe ready for matho's controller. (cable sticking out the front, still waiting on ebay to send XLR plugs for it.)
Washed the insulation, and re-installed it.
Hacked up a 19L pot ready to replace the bag.


The 1V







Bottom of the 19L pot with the false bottom setup. The 4 holes are going to have bolts through them for the legs.






One day I'll replace the old brass fittings for blingy stainless.


QldKev


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## breakbeer

Hi Kev,

I like the pot with the slits cut into the bottom of it, do you just use it as is or is there some kind of mesh on the inside?


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## QldKev

I've only just cut it today, but the plan is to use no other mesh/bag at all. The mash tun on my 3V uses a slotted false bottom exactly the same, using the same cut off wheel size, so I don't see any issues with the 1V working.

Pic of the 3V bottom.


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## QldKev

Giving the updated system a run today. Changes are Matho's controller and also the 19L pot to replace the bag.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csTZUDc4WZI&feature=youtu.be

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXVBNKjS3gs&feature=youtu.be


So far all is good for it's maiden run.


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## Bats

Well done QldKev.

You've given me some ideas.


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## joshF

Qldkev you stole my idea/setup!!!! (just kidding, i stole my idea from someone on homebrewtalk :lol: )

Looks really good mate. I've got all the bits and pieces to make mathos controller except the shield, lcd and a few other bits so i can't wait to finally run it with the controller!

For those looking at a recirculating kind of BIAB setup i've attached some more pics to give some ideas to other members. Its very similar to qldkevs and as he said, the wort clarity ends up nice and clear.

Mine's an urn with a big w pot inside, still using a grainbag aswell for a bit extra filtering and a bunnings sprinkler screwed under the lid of the urn so as to not upset the grain bed too much.




qldkev let me know what you end up doing for the return arm so i can steal your idea! Even though it works awesomely, the sprinkler is probably only a temporary measure


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## QldKev

joshF said:


> Qldkev you stole my idea/setup!!!! (just kidding, i stole my idea from someone on homebrewtalk :lol: )
> 
> Looks really good mate. I've got all the bits and pieces to make mathos controller except the shield, lcd and a few other bits so i can't wait to finally run it with the controller!
> 
> For those looking at a recirculating kind of BIAB setup i've attached some more pics to give some ideas to other members. Its very similar to qldkevs and as he said, the wort clarity ends up nice and clear.
> 
> Mine's an urn with a big w pot inside, still using a grainbag aswell for a bit extra filtering and a bunnings sprinkler screwed under the lid of the urn so as to not upset the grain bed too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> qldkev let me know what you end up doing for the return arm so i can steal your idea! Even though it works awesomely, the sprinkler is probably only a temporary measure




Funny thing is back in early 2010 I was going to convert my BIAB to this type of setup with HERMS , but the 3V bug kicked in and got the priority. It's just not I've done a lot of my 3V (never will be finished lol) I've started tinkering with this setup again.

edit: 
The return arm will most likely stay with what was in the videos. I believe if you have enough flow the wort will mix by the currents on top of the grain bed.


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## eresh666

KEv,

Any restriction on the brew size when using the 19L bigw as a 'malt pipe'? I'm interested in modifying my keggle to work similar to these (batch size 20-26L).


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## QldKev

I think there will be a restriction. Batch Size + target OG + efficiency will determine what you can brew.

I made a Falconers Flight yesterday with 28L into the cube, a target gravity of only 1.041, I dialed up 85% mash efficiency and hit 87.3%. This required 4.25kg of grain. 

I did not really check how full of grain the 19L pot was. I think about 5kg of grain would be the maximum you could comfortably fit, but I'm not that sure.

If I use 28L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.041 beer.
If I use 23L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.051 beer. 

If I use 28L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.047 beer. (that's about 4.8% abv)
If I use 23L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.058 beer. (that's about 5.9% abv, I can't remember last time I brewed this high)
If I use 20L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.066 beer. (that's about 6.8% abv)


I'm thinking of brewing another beer later today, maybe I should run a full strength through it to see what 5kg does and pay more attention to how full the 19L pot is.


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## Beerisyummy

eresh666 said:


> KEv,
> 
> Any restriction on the brew size when using the 19L bigw as a 'malt pipe'? I'm interested in modifying my keggle to work similar to these (batch size 20-26L).


If QK's setup works anything like mine I'd say you max out at around 5.5kg of grain. Beyond that the mash efficiency drops off very quickly.

I'll get some shots of my setup when I have the time so we can share some findings QK. Mine doesn't use a bag as such but the theory is the same.


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## j-dunn

Mine's an urn with a big w pot inside, still using a grainbag aswell for a bit extra filtering and a bunnings sprinkler screwed under the lid of the urn so as to not upset the grain bed too much.


Hi Josh
Having the sprinkler returning the liquid, is there any worry of the hot liquid being Aerated and makin the brew taste like crap?

Cheers
Joe


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## nala

QldKev said:


> I think there will be a restriction. Batch Size + target OG + efficiency will determine what you can brew.
> 
> I made a Falconers Flight yesterday with 28L into the cube, a target gravity of only 1.041, I dialed up 85% mash efficiency and hit 87.3%. This required 4.25kg of grain.
> 
> I did not really check how full of grain the 19L pot was. I think about 5kg of grain would be the maximum you could comfortably fit, but I'm not that sure.
> 
> If I use 28L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.041 beer.
> If I use 23L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.051 beer.
> 
> If I use 28L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.047 beer. (that's about 4.8% abv)
> If I use 23L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.058 beer. (that's about 5.9% abv, I can't remember last time I brewed this high)
> If I use 20L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.066 beer. (that's about 6.8% abv)
> 
> 
> I'm thinking of brewing another beer later today, maybe I should run a full strength through it to see what 5kg does and pay more attention to how full the 19L pot is.


Kev, I can only dream about getting anywhere near your efficiency numbers !
I too have a recirculating mashing system.
The problems I face are ; getting the flow of wort through the grain bed, I would like to achieve 3/4 litres per minute.
; I crush my grain using a 1.5mm gap between the rollers.
; I mash at 66oC for 1.5 hours.
; Sparge at 75oC
I have tried numerous false bottom's, 12" perforated, copper tube with holes, copper tube with slots, all results are the same.
The last brew I experimented by sieving the grist and doughing in with coarse grains first followed by the finer particles, made very little difference to the wort flow rate. Certainly no difference to the efficiency.
Getting a BigW pot today and will copy your excellent engineering example, watch this space !


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## joshF

j-dunn said:


> Hi Josh
> Having the sprinkler returning the liquid, is there any worry of the hot liquid being Aerated and makin the brew taste like crap?
> 
> Cheers
> Joe


Hey Joe,
Not from what i've experienced so far although i do have the output throttled back quite alot and i've since drilled 6 holes in the sprinkler head so its more of a continuous stream than a spray. I originally set it up just as a cheap fix but it worked OK so I just left it as is. Looking for a better solution though now


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## QldKev

nala said:


> Kev, I can only dream about getting anywhere near your efficiency numbers !
> I too have a recirculating mashing system.
> The problems I face are ; getting the flow of wort through the grain bed, I would like to achieve 3/4 litres per minute.
> ; I crush my grain using a 1.5mm gap between the rollers.
> ; I mash at 66oC for 1.5 hours.
> ; Sparge at 75oC
> I have tried numerous false bottom's, 12" perforated, copper tube with holes, copper tube with slots, all results are the same.
> The last brew I experimented by sieving the grist and doughing in with coarse grains first followed by the finer particles, made very little difference to the wort flow rate. Certainly no difference to the efficiency.
> Getting a BigW pot today and will copy your excellent engineering example, watch this space !


Don't get too stuck up on the efficiency topic. Remember when you started making AG you said you wanted to make good beer, you didn't say you want good efficiency. Using a 5% abv in a 23L batch there is only about 0.55 kg difference in grain between 75% and 85% mash efficiency.

What mill / sized rollers do you have? 1.5mm is a pretty big gap. I'm thinking this could be a huge issue for efficiency. My mates mill has 102mm diameter rollers and he runs that type of gap. On my Monster mill MM2 with 38mm diameter rollers I use 0.9mm. I keep the same setting for both my 1V and 3V setups. How are you powering the mill?

If you've tried all types of bottoms and braid, I'm thinking the change to the pot may not be the answer you are looking for. It may help other things though. 

Not that it would help your mash efficiency, but you have 4.5L deadspace. That would kill your overall brewhouse efficiency.


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## QldKev

joshF said:


> Hey Joe,
> Not from what i've experienced so far although i do have the output throttled back quite alot and i've since drilled 6 holes in the sprinkler head so its more of a continuous stream than a spray. I originally set it up just as a cheap fix but it worked OK so I just left it as is. Looking for a better solution though now



I find you don't need a really flash return system, just return the wort in a way it mixes with the top layer.


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## j-dunn

Regards to the "malt pot", I have a 60lt pot that i BIAB in, how big a pot would be suitable?

Currently I use a basket(crab cooker) with the bag in it.

I have toyed with the idea of recirculating the mash via cam lock (50mm) up through the grain bed as per braumiester system.

Cheers


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## nala

QldKev said:


> Don't get too stuck up on the efficiency topic. Remember when you started making AG you said you wanted to make good beer, you didn't say you want good efficiency. Using a 5% abv in a 23L batch there is only about 0.55 kg difference in grain between 75% and 85% mash efficiency.
> 
> What mill / sized rollers do you have? 1.5mm is a pretty big gap. I'm thinking this could be a huge issue for efficiency. My mates mill has 102mm diameter rollers and he runs that type of gap. On my Monster mill MM2 with 38mm diameter rollers I use 0.9mm. I keep the same setting for both my 1V and 3V setups. How are you powering the mill?
> 
> If you've tried all types of bottoms and braid, I'm thinking the change to the pot may not be the answer you are looking for. It may help other things though.
> 
> Not that it would help your mash efficiency, but you have 4.5L deadspace. That would kill your overall brewhouse efficiency.


You are correct to quote me as saying " I prefer to make good beer", I also think that there is a correlation between efficiency and getting a good wort flow through the grain bed. My issues are around the wort flow through the grain bed, I believe that with any recirculating system....HERMS, RIMS, WORMS BIAB, BUCKET BIAB, it is essential to get a good wort flow.
I am aiming to get 3 - 4 litres per minute this is why I am trying to get a good crush from the mill, hence my 1.5 mm gap.
I have a 2 roller mill powered by a high torque drill at a very low speed. 
The pump I use is a Brown pump which is capable of 6 litres per minute, this is more than adequate for the job, I see others recommending March pumps, the issue is definitely not the pump,when I did trials like your video using water I get superb ramp times and have perfect temperature control on all stages. When I put grain into the mash tun the flow rate obviously drops dramatically. This is the area in which I am hoping to improve, I have done 73 all grain brews over the last couple of years, some were BIAB, some were WORMS BIAB, others were either BUCKET BIAB or conventional single infusion mash.
I abandoned WORMS and BUCKET because I could not get the flow to produce a good and consistent temperature within the grain bed. The analogy I use to describe what I am after is ; when water is poured through a course gravel bed their is little resistance to flow, pour the same water through compacted sand and you have poor or no flow. I suppose in some ways I am trying to create perpetual motion !
I continue to spend copious amounts of money on trials with the hope that some day I will hit on something that works to a better extent to what I have tried up to date.
I do have ideas of my own but this forum is a great source of good ideas, yours included.


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## QldKev

Went out to Bundaberg Constructions yesterday. Greg (mate that's also an all grain brewer) welded up the handle and some supports for the bucket to sit on to drain. Should make sparging pretty easy. The bottom of the bucket sits just above the 32L line.


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## QldKev

Brew day 2 with the new pot setup was at a brewday at Greg's place. He brewed on his 3V while I fired up the 1V. I was making a beer for another ex-brewer using some of his really old grains. The grains were milled in Greg's mill and ran through twice as I prefer a finer crush, also there was a large percentage of flaked maize in the mix. I found I could not leave the top return fully open as the wort level crept up in the pot. Although we assume this was caused from the old flaked maize which we found out afterwards has gone custard like in the bottom of the pot, I decided to throw some more openings in the pot. I was hesitant to put more slit in it with the grinder as it was already starting to get weak, so this morning I drilled some holes. If anyone else decides to cut slits in these thin BigW pots, I would keep them shorter and probably more staggered. 

I could have done a neater job :huh:







Then today I brewed, brewday 3. Grain crushed on my mill settings and the new holes, I managed to hold the flow on the top valve fully open and had no issues with the wort level getting high.

Finished off a nice clean looking wort.







Can't wait to try it :chug:


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## HBHB

Flash as a rat with a gold tooth. Nice 1 kev.

Martin


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## matho

Looks great Kev,
If there is any improvements to the controller that you could think of, let us know. I'm thinking about changing my original controller over to a brauduino just to see how it goes. I still like my orignal controller but I would like to see how a brew goes with the brauduino, I have never brewed with it.

cheers steve


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## thebigwilk

Looks all good Kev how do you get the false bottom up after the mash? Heres some pics of the system I built a year or so ago notice the hooks system on the false bottom to help remove it once the mash has finished to start the rolling boil.


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## QldKev

thebigwilk said:


> Looks all good Kev how do you get the false bottom up after the mash? Heres some pics of the system I built a year or so ago notice the hooks system on the false bottom to help remove it once the mash has finished to start the rolling boil.
> 
> <snip pics>>



I like your build, it's where I got the idea how to mount the 2 return lines. :beerbang:


The false bottom is part of the BigW 19L inner pot. So I don't use a swiss voile bag or the pizza tray false bottom anymore. To drain I just lift the pot and sit it on the ledges, so it drains directly back into the main wort. It also allows an easy sparge having solid sides so the water cannot leak out sideways.


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## QldKev

matho said:


> Looks great Kev,
> If there is any improvements to the controller that you could think of, let us know. I'm thinking about changing my original controller over to a brauduino just to see how it goes. I still like my orignal controller but I would like to see how a brew goes with the brauduino, I have never brewed with it.
> 
> cheers steve


Steve, I find it a great bit of kit and makes brewing easy. I love how easy the interface is compared to my Auber programmable pid.

My wish list is as follows.

*Controller*
Ability to install a louder alarm. I cannot hear mine from my office when brewing. Also with a loud alarm, a volume knob/pot would be great so I could turn it down if I'm in the area.
A wifi / network enabled version, that you can log onto from the network and monitor the progress.
Maybe a 20 x 4 display.

*Software*
Have a constant declared for _BoilStartTemp_ (95c is a bit cool for me, I use 98c)
Have a constant declared for _MaxPumpTemp_ (ie when to stop the pump, I run a Kaixin and don't take it past 80c)
Have a _pause_pump_ function triggered by _Button_next_. As per _pause_stage_ but pump only.
Do the CRC check on the temperature read


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## QldKev

eresh666 said:


> KEv,
> 
> Any restriction on the brew size when using the 19L bigw as a 'malt pipe'? I'm interested in modifying my keggle to work similar to these (batch size 20-26L).


I managed to squeze a 28L batch with 5.64kg of grain today. It was definitely a full pot.


Straight after mash in


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## nala

QldKev said:


> I managed to squeze a 28L batch with 5.64kg of grain today. It was definitely a full pot.
> 
> 
> Straight after mash in
> 
> I had my brewday yesterday, very pleased with the results, however, I have modified the wort return to include a control tap, the new pump was performing great, too good, so I had direct the wort to the outer pot to avoid spill over.
> Early days but my efficiency also improved to 75% from a planned 60%.
> Thanks for your guidance.


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## QldKev

nala said:


> I had my brewday yesterday, very pleased with the results, however, I have modified the wort return to include a control tap, the new pump was performing great, too good, so I had direct the wort to the outer pot to avoid spill over.
> Early days but my efficiency also improved to 75% from a planned 60%.
> Thanks for your guidance.



Glad you've improved your efficiency. 60 to 75% is a great change. The excess flow is great to redirect back at the heating element as it keeps the changes of scorching wort down, have a look at thebigwilk and my posts earlier in this thread, we have a second return at the bottom facing directly at the element. Then the pump flows full all the time, it's just how much you let to the inner pot that changes.


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## nala

QldKev said:


> Glad you've improved your efficiency. 60 to 75% is a great change. The excess flow is great to redirect back at the heating element as it keeps the changes of scorching wort down, have a look at thebigwilk and my posts earlier in this thread, we have a second return at the bottom facing directly at the element. Then the pump flows full all the time, it's just how much you let to the inner pot that changes.


Kev, I have a HEX so that problem does not exist although I understand the good point that you are making.
I am attaching a couple of pictures so that you can see the progress that I have made since you started this topic, sadly no bling,
the first picture gives you an idea of my setup, I have since changed the pump to one like your's.
The second picture shows the pot within the pot and also a temperatllure probe within the mash, I have a few adjustments to make but feel sure that success will come. I fabricated a return pipe which will give me the ability to divert the flow either into the mash pot or into the main pot for recirculating back to the HEX, I am keeping the pump at full flow.
Another trial awaits next week.


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## malt_shovel

QldKev said:


> ...
> I could have done a neater job :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then today I brewed, brewday 3. Grain crushed on my mill settings and the new holes, I managed to hold the flow on the top valve fully open and had no issues with the wort level getting high.
> 
> 
> Can't wait to try it :chug:


Mate,
Can you please let us know the width / diameter of the holes and slits you have made? Was this done with a dremel and cleaned up with a flap disc?

Cheers


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## QldKev

malt_shovel said:


> Mate,
> Can you please let us know the width / diameter of the holes and slits you have made? Was this done with a dremel and cleaned up with a flap disc?
> 
> Cheers



The slits were cut with a Makita 1.0mm stainless cutoff wheel on a normal grinder. I've found the dremel ones are too fine. Then cleaned up with a normal flap disc. I find after I've flap disc'd it I need to take the cut off wheel by hand and clean up the burs in the slits. Just remember to ensure the cutoff wheel and flap disc are new and have not touched non stainless steel.

The round holes are 2.2mm. But anywhere from 2.0mm to 2.5mm will be ok depending on your crush. I find drilling from the inside of the pot makes cleaning up a lot easier as the burns are on the outside.


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## cbet

Have you have any issues with rust in this system? 

I cut a series of slots in the bottom of my Big W 19L pot last week then smoothed it out with a grinder and it was looking great. Then yesterday, I discovered it was covered in rust.



QldKev said:


> Just remember to ensure the cutoff wheel and flap disc are new and have not touched non stainless steel.


Would this have anything to do with it? I used an old flap disc. Could I fix it by going over it with a new flap disc?


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## heyhey

Yep that would be your issue.

You could pickle it or get a stainless flap disc or wire brush wheel and run over it again.


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## nala

QldKev said:


> Glad you've improved your efficiency. 60 to 75% is a great change. The excess flow is great to redirect back at the heating element as it keeps the changes of scorching wort down, have a look at thebigwilk and my posts earlier in this thread, we have a second return at the bottom facing directly at the element. Then the pump flows full all the time, it's just how much you let to the inner pot that changes.


Second brew today, went really well.
I have increased the HEX thermocouple temperature to take into account the temperature differential between the HEX and the mash tun, the picture that I am attaching demonstrates this. I did a single infusion mash @ 66 degrees, the HEX thermocouple is set to 73 degrees and as can be seen by the two temperature probes within the mash I have a difference of 7 degrees, this kept constant during the 60 minute mash cycle, I am recirculating at 20 litres per minute and the other picture shows the wort return pipe that I made so that I can control the flow without overflowing the mash tun.
Really pleased to have made some good progress.


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## QldKev

cbet said:


> Have you have any issues with rust in this system?
> 
> I cut a series of slots in the bottom of my Big W 19L pot last week then smoothed it out with a grinder and it was looking great. Then yesterday, I discovered it was covered in rust.
> 
> 
> Would this have anything to do with it? I used an old flap disc. Could I fix it by going over it with a new flap disc?



This is the cause of your issue. I used my stainless work only discs (they are even kept separately from the normal job ones), and it has no sign of rust. You have successfully impregnated the stainless with some foreign metal which is rusting. Not sure how you will go with a fresh disc, as there will still be the foreign metal in the job. I would get some decent pickling paste if you can, failing that use something like straight starsan as the pickling paste.


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## Byran

Phosphoric acid will also work if you paint it on the rusty stainless it will eat away the ferrous metal leaving the chromium on top preventing further oxidation. Leave it for a while then wash off with water.


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## pat_00

How necessary is the bottom pump return with this design?

Have you tried protein rests without it?


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## QldKev

pat_00 said:


> How necessary is the bottom pump return with this design?
> 
> Have you tried protein rests without it?


With any element which is in contact with wort / RIMS I would recommend moving the wort past the element for a protein rest. There are a couple of systems in use that don't have the bottom return. IMHO you may get away without it for a while, but eventually it will bite you.


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## Beerisyummy

Hi QK,

Your results inspired me to totally overhaul my system on Sunday morning. I do a reverse flow up through the mash on my "pod" type of MT, but it's followed by a mash out sparging in the usual configuration.

I was struggling to get the flow quick enough. Now I know I can just drill a shirtload more holes and be done with it. Sweet!

Earlier on in the thread I said I'd bounce some ideas. Pics are the easy way to do that so here goes.....

My false bottom on the original pod.




The mesh screens that allow me to pump wort up as well as using gravity.



Pulling out 5kg of grain in the old setup.



The new and improved ( I hope) set up. I was bored and it was early on a Sunday morning.



All nestled together with 60% wheaty doughed in at tap temp.



Stick the lid on and you know the rest.



When I do my mash out sparge thingy at the end I use my system just like yours. I'm wondering if the mesh screens I use would help in your setup? You don't even need to worry about your flow getting too fast and grain flooding over the edges.


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## nala

Beerisyummy said:


> Hi QK,
> 
> Your results inspired me to totally overhaul my system on Sunday morning. I do a reverse flow up through the mash on my "pod" type of MT, but it's followed by a mash out sparging in the usual configuration.
> 
> I was struggling to get the flow quick enough. Now I know I can just drill a shirtload more holes and be done with it. Sweet!
> 
> Earlier on in the thread I said I'd bounce some ideas. Pics are the easy way to do that so here goes.....
> 
> My false bottom on the original pod.
> 
> 
> 
> PA064385.JPG
> 
> The mesh screens that allow me to pump wort up as well as using gravity.
> 
> 
> 
> PA064380.JPG
> 
> Pulling out 5kg of grain in the old setup.
> 
> 
> 
> PA064382.JPG
> 
> The new and improved ( I hope) set up. I was bored and it was early on a Sunday morning.
> 
> 
> 
> PA204483.JPG
> 
> All nestled together with 60% wheaty doughed in at tap temp.
> 
> 
> 
> PA204485.JPG
> 
> Stick the lid on and you know the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> PA204487.JPG
> 
> When I do my mash out sparge thingy at the end I use my system just like yours. I'm wondering if the mesh screens I use would help in your setup? You don't even need to worry about your flow getting too fast and grain flooding over the edges.


Could you please explain where you drilled the "shitload" of holes, I think I understand your very well thought out rig but the pictures do not show the holes that you have drilled.
Do you still use the old false bottom ?
How coarse are the mesh screens ?
Where does your recirculated wort re-enter the outer pot ?
Could you please explain how your sparging works, do you raise the inner pot and let gravity perculate the sparge water through the grain ?
Cheers.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Hi Nala,
I'll get into the garage tomorrow and answer a few of your questions without clogging up this thread.

I pinched a nerve in my back on Friday and worked today. High as all get out on pain killers and beer right now.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Could you please explain where you drilled the "shitload" of holes, I think I understand your very well thought out rig but the pictures do not show the holes that you have drilled.
> Do you still use the old false bottom ?
> How coarse are the mesh screens ?
> Where does your recirculated wort re-enter the outer pot ?
> Could you please explain how your sparging works, do you raise the inner pot and let gravity perculate the sparge water through the grain ?
> Cheers.


Sorry Kev, My back's still hurting and I'm still high on pain killers and beer. I'll start my own thread soon.

-I have not drilled more holes in the base yet. I will before my next brew.

-No, I don't use the old false bottom now but that only changed last weekend. I'm much happier with the new design but I had achieved over 100% mash efficiency on the old rig. It all depends on the mash schedule and what you want from your system.

-The mash screens are these ones http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10165849/ I use two now for my fine ground wheat beer and one of these http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10165849/ with the glass smashed out as a seal. You can get away with just one screen for most beers.

-The wort recirculates back into the "pod" through the bottom. The old one was plumbed into the bottom of a pot and the false bottom sat above it. The new one has the false bottom in the main pot and a cradle type arrangement that feeds the MT pot from underneath.

-I sparge by lifting the pod up and letting hot wort or water percolate through the mash just like Kev does. 15-20 minutes of this is enough to clear the wort up after disturbing the grain bed.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Hi QK,

How's the system coming along? Any upgrades?


----------



## Econwatson

I'm doing a maiden brew on my new rig which was inspired by Kev's rig and advice.

Does anybody have any insight on how far the bottom of the malt pipe should be from the element? I need to keep it pretty close because the return arm needs to get over the top of the malt pipe. Any advice?

Cheers!


----------



## Bucks

Love the build Kev, it might give me some encouragement to pull matho's controller out of the basket which i built but never did anything with!!

Are you happy with the ramp times with your build? What size element are you running and what size would you recommend if building again in a 50L keg? And have you done any upgrades?

I have a CB 2400W element in a CB 70L pot which i've been brewing single batches in however im unsure whether to use it as never been really wrapped in its performance.

Cheers for your time


----------



## QldKev

No more mods/upgrades to it since the last one posted in this thread. 

Power wise more energy would be nice. I'm using a 2000w as by the time I include the controller and pump it starts getting me close to the 2400w/10amp limit of the circuit I use for it. I did need to use 3 layers of insulation to get a decent boil, and decent ramp rate. A bigger pot than the BigW would be great too, but it would become a harder fit.


----------



## Bucks

What about using 2 x 19L pots as a malt pipe thingy with one of them cut in half to extend the length as some have done in the braumeister NEXTGEN build??

If it was possible to shorten the legs on the pot and they didn't foul on anything ie. elements, it may work.

Cheers Bucks


----------



## QldKev

I've seen the pot in pot idea on someones brau clone. I looked at it, but I will probably only brew 1 or 2 beers a year that find the pot size a limit so though at this stage no more mods. (other hobbies sucking my personal budget dry)


----------



## Bucks

Maybe a concealed Crown urn element would be the go for this build. Allow for a lower malt pipe or more space for temp prob/ whirlpooling/ tap pickups??


----------



## QldKev

Bucks said:


> Maybe a concealed Crown urn element would be the go for this build. Allow for a lower malt pipe or more space for temp prob/ whirlpooling/ tap pickups??


I put one in my 3V's mash tun. I think they are too high of a heat density for mash temperatures. Needless to say, mine is now dead. It wont be getting replaced, I'm going to soup up the HERMS for the extra heating.


----------



## McFeast

Guys this thread was a great read. I'm a simple biab bloke and it can get messy and annoying at times. What you've shown here is something I can work towards. Just gotta find a 50l keg to cut and a decent inner pot.. Your setups look clean and organised too. Top shelf!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## QldKev

McFeast said:


> Guys this thread was a great read. I'm a simple biab bloke and it can get messy and annoying at times. What you've shown here is something I can work towards. Just gotta find a 50l keg to cut and a decent inner pot.. Your setups look clean and organised too. Top shelf!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My inner pot is just a 19L BigW pot, cost <$20.


----------



## indica86

Kev, what is he value in recirculating the wort? Is it clarity then less trub? Better flavour? Increased efficiency?


----------



## QldKev

All of above

It's been debated on here about wort clarity effecting the final product or not, but I think it helps.
Flavor, you can ensure / maintain better temperature control and allow for multiple temperature steps accurately and easily.
Efficiency, I get 85% pre-boil and only hose-sparge. (hose-sparge: batch sparge using cold water from a hose.) I used to get 75% in my traditional BIAB days.

One thing to remember, the 1V setup is a great system and I find it makes brewing a lot easier on the day. But at the end of the day pick a system you are happy with. I also enjoy brewing on my 3V, and think both systems make equally great beer. If you are ever down this way look me up and come over for a brew day. The best way is to see them in action, and see what you think of it.


----------



## indica86

Thanks. Buying some gear soon so getting my head around it all.

Thanks for the drop in offer too.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Kev, have you ever had issues with stuck sparges? I tried a run today, without the normal reverse flow to start, and the damn thing stuck like never before.
Admittedly, I grind reasonably fine and used the drill mixer to mash in this time.


----------



## QldKev

I did initially have an issue with slow draining before I added the extra holes. It never stuck, just was not as fast as I like to flow. But I moreso blame the high % of really old flaked maize as it set like custard in the bottom of the pot. Since then I have not used a high % of maize, I have the extra holes and not had any more issues. It would be great to incorporate something into the design to prevent the grain from being able to over flow from the top, it could also second to ensure an even recirc water distribution. But I'm not really concerned so it will be another year or two before I worry about it.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Thanks Kev. I think I need to drill a few more holes in my pot to solve the problem.


----------



## lukencode

Looking at putting together something similar - does the outer keg work well or is a pot the better option? The only place I've seen them available is the keggle at keg king (not to keen on chopping one up myself).


----------



## Beerisyummy

lukencode said:


> Looking at putting together something similar - does the outer keg work well or is a pot the better option? The only place I've seen them available is the keggle at keg king (not to keen on chopping one up myself).


I'm sure both options would be just fine depending on the other parts of the setup.
Eg: I use a cheap 50l stainless pot which just fits the BW pot inside it's inner diameter. This allows me to use an induction element to do most of the heavy lifting in my brewery.

If you where to use a 50l keggle with a gas burner, I'm sure it would work just as well. It would probably be cheaper also.
I'm sure Kev can give you more insight into this approach, as only use my 50l keg for fermenting.


----------



## sponge

This thread has just changed (for the better) the design of my 1V system.

I just have a question regarding the pump returns. I'm still not 100% sure why the return at the bottom of the kettle is used whilst the mash is recirculating.. I would've thought that the wort circulating through the mash, out the FB and over the elements back to the pump was enough flow over the elements to not require the return to the main kettle. I can see why having another return for whirlpooling (off say a 2-way valve) would be advantageous, but still not sure as to why both returns are required? Would having an outlet to the pump on either edge of the kettle (so 2 kettle outlets for the single pump on opposite sides of the kettle) 'encourage' more movement across the element as there would be less places for the wort to sit still and possibly scorch?

I am probably missing something very simple here so apologies in advance. I'm really liking the idea of recirculating like a normal mash and not up through the bottom. Makes the build a whole lot simpler not having to 'contain' the mash..


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> This thread has just changed (for the better) the design of my 1V system.
> 
> I just have a question regarding the pump returns. I'm still not 100% sure why the return at the bottom of the kettle is used whilst the mash is recirculating.. I would've thought that the wort circulating through the mash, out the FB and over the elements back to the pump was enough flow over the elements to not require the return to the main kettle. I can see why having another return for whirlpooling (off say a 2-way valve) would be advantageous, but still not sure as to why both returns are required? Would having an outlet to the pump on either edge of the kettle (so 2 kettle outlets for the single pump on opposite sides of the kettle) 'encourage' more movement across the element as there would be less places for the wort to sit still and possibly scorch?
> 
> I am probably missing something very simple here so apologies in advance. I'm really liking the idea of recirculating like a normal mash and not up through the bottom. Makes the build a whole lot simpler not having to 'contain' the mash..



It's just a case of wanting a lot more flow from the pump across the element, than I though I could achieve through the grain/false bottom without sucking down the grain bed and getting a stuck mash. The strong flow across the element is really useful at the lower temps of an acid and protein rest, but mainly the acid rest. 

Check out this video from about 1min 45sec for the speed of the water under the pot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csTZUDc4WZI&list=UUDInzeelCPde0_pvzMdzhng


----------



## sponge

Yea I had a watch of that video.. answered a lot of questions I had. 

It just seems like the mash will be lagging because of the split return. But that's purely a thought and not based on any evidence, whereas you've brewed enough beers on that system to show otherwise. I guess the bottom of the mash will still be sitting in some kettle wort anyways which will help ramp times and whatnot so I might have to look at doing something similar.


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> Yea I had a watch of that video.. answered a lot of questions I had.
> 
> It just seems like the mash will be lagging because of the split return. But that's purely a thought and not based on any evidence, whereas you've brewed enough beers on that system to show otherwise. I guess the bottom of the mash will still be sitting in some kettle wort anyways which will help ramp times and whatnot so I might have to look at doing something similar.


The pump I'm using on this system is the Kaixin mp20, most brewers use the smaller mp15, so it has a very big flow. I'm returning more flow from just the top return than say a little brown pump flows total, so plenty of flow into the mash itself. Although in the video the outside water level looks to be at the bottom of the pot, in the real world it is the same level as the inside. So if the water in the sump area should exceed the mash temperature by much, the mash tun being immersed in it, then it will also conduct heat into the mash through the pot. Real world I find this system has minimal mash temperature lag.

Another way I think of it, allowing a smaller pump for recirculation and only the top return then you would theoretically get the same heating of the mash bed from the same flow through the mash bed. The element would still be immersed in the same volume of wort. You would just loose the extra movement of wort under and around the pot which I don't think actually adds much extra mash heating, it's only there to safe guard the element. That's my theory anyway. 

Overall if I built the system from scratch again I would keep the 2 returns. But if you don't want to do the lower temperature steps, especially an acid rest, then the lower return becomes less important.


----------



## sponge

I don't often go below a protein rest TBH (unless I'm bringing the mash up to temp from ambient) but will almost definitely keep the dual return with a valve on each to control the flow.

I think I'll be putting in a 'plumbing drain' as well and have a tee-piece with a camlock and cover at the lowest point of the plumbing so that it's easy to take off the cover, let everything drain through there, give it a quick rinse with a hose and drain, then put the cap back on and get some sodium perc circulating through everything.

Thanks for the help Kev.


----------



## QldKev

Just chucked up some video from a few days ago, it shows the pot etc a lot better.


http://youtu.be/tbPAxWFB65s


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

Is the danger at lower temp rests without the lower return that you risk draining the wort below the grain bed faster than it will flow back through the grain bed and then expose the element?


----------



## QldKev

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Is the danger at lower temp rests without the lower return that you risk draining the wort below the grain bed faster than it will flow back through the grain bed and then expose the element?


At lower temperatures there is more shit that is likely to stick to the heating element causing it to burn out.


----------



## QldKev

Quote from http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/82038-braumeister-style-vs-1v-recirculated-from-above/?p=1210417
I replied here so I don't take over the other thread.


aamcle said:


> Kev.
> 
> Most impressed, my initial experiments were with a inner pot with a mesh bottom.
> I tried 7 mesh (7holes per inch) and twenty mesh the. 7# let a lot of grain matter through and the 20# restricted the flow to a slow trickle.
> Neither mesh permitted a flow rate like that in your video, the inner pot just over flowed into the outer vessel.
> The level of wort in the outer pot was only 25 to 50mm below the level in the inner pot
> One big difference is that I was only returning at the top, I didn't have a return to the bottom.
> 
> Do you think that the lack of a bottom return might be the issue?
> Is there anything special about your grain crush?
> 
> Were is the bottom return positioned relative to the base of the pot?
> 
> And of course are there any pictures of the return/outer pot?
> 
> I feel some experiments coming on!
> 
> Atb. Aamcle


I don't think the bottom return aids in the flow through the inner pot. It is only there to help protect the element.
Crush is my normal crush for my 3V, with my mm2 set to 0.9mm. I don't change it for this system.
The bottom return is from the side, facing the element. It's height is under the pot. In this thread back up somewhere there is a video of matho's controller pt1.



Not the best pic, but this shows the pickup, and lower return.
The pickup is the brass elbow, the return is the stainless elbow. I do want to replace the returns 90 elbow with a 45 degree one. You can see I still get shit on the element, but it cleans off ok. With the flow of water in the bottom it helps stop it from getting too hot and burning it on.








My crush


----------



## aamcle

Thanks Kev.

Looking at your video it seemed as if the wort in the outer pot was much lower than that in the inner pot. Is that correct? 

Atb. Aamcle


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

Thanks, for all your help Kev.

I have the Kaixin mp15 and I am worried that it does not have a high enough flow rate for both the top and bottom return.

Where did you get your Kaixin mp20 from? I can't find them anywhere. There are MKII models out now, that are supposed to be able withstand higher temperatures (rated to 110C) but they have the same advertised flow rate (19L/min) as my mp 15.


----------



## QldKev

aamcle said:


> Thanks Kev.
> 
> Looking at your video it seemed as if the wort in the outer pot was much lower than that in the inner pot. Is that correct?
> 
> Atb. Aamcle


You can see in the Aug 2014 update video when I lift the pot up for draining the outer level. It was approx 6cm difference. I don't think I could ever achieve it to sit even. The faster I run the flow the higher the difference.

I should add how I get my mash water level as it is very different to any traditional approach. I start with approx 25L strike water, and heat to strike temp. I then add the grain and check the water level with the pump running against my return arm height. Obviously the more grain the higher the water level. I then add cold water to get the end of the return arm just under water. The element/mash recovers from the water temp drop pretty fast.




RelaxedBrewer said:


> Thanks, for all your help Kev.
> 
> I have the Kaixin mp15 and I am worried that it does not have a high enough flow rate for both the top and bottom return.
> 
> Where did you get your Kaixin mp20 from? I can't find them anywhere. There are MKII models out now, that are supposed to be able withstand higher temperatures (rated to 110C) but they have the same advertised flow rate (19L/min) as my mp 15.


I got mine from aliexpress, but it was a lot cheaper than the current prices

I think the mp15 will be ok, if I had one I would just use it and see how you go. It will flow more having two returns as you reduce the line pressure some. Just keep all the hoses etc as short as you can.


----------



## aamcle

Right I think the success of your system is due to the height difference you generate between the inner pot and the outer pot. It creates enough head to get the wort to flow through the grain bed.

I can't emulate that with a 12v Solar Pump


Aamcle


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

You are right about my pump, may as well try if first and see what kind of flow I get going.
In the video it looked like you adjusted the flow rates on your returns via ball valves to get the correct flow rates. Is that how you do it?


Also, what temperature probe are you using and what kind of thermowell? If I remember correctly mathos controller uses the DS18B20 probe.


----------



## QldKev

RelaxedBrewer said:


> You are right about my pump, may as well try if first and see what kind of flow I get going.
> In the video it looked like you adjusted the flow rates on your returns via ball valves to get the correct flow rates. Is that how you do it?
> 
> 
> Also, what temperature probe are you using and what kind of thermowell? If I remember correctly mathos controller uses the DS18B20 probe.



Yep, I have a ball valve on both the top and bottom returns. Normally I leave the bottom one wide open, and adjust the top one. Unless I'm messing with higher flow then I open up the top and slow down the bottom one.

The probe I used is
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3m-Digital-Thermal-Tank-Sensor-Horizontal-DS18B20-/251319571157?pt=US_Weather_Meters&hash=item3a83d052d5

I cut the wire a few inches from the probe and soldered in an XLR joiner.


----------



## jonnir

Just a question on this one kev. 

I was sitting the 19l pot in the keg without cutting the handles off the pot. This way it sits 'on' the pot if you get what I mean. The pot won't be submersed in wort at all. The only thing I can see this affecting is retaining heat in the pot a little bit easier.

Am I correct in thinking this? 

In my mind it's just like a continuous sparge at whatever temperature I set the Stc at. Just gotta set the flow and sit the probe in pot.


----------



## QldKev

jonnir said:


> Just a question on this one kev.
> 
> I was sitting the 19l pot in the keg without cutting the handles off the pot. This way it sits 'on' the pot if you get what I mean. The pot won't be submersed in wort at all. The only thing I can see this affecting is retaining heat in the pot a little bit easier.
> 
> Am I correct in thinking this?
> 
> In my mind it's just like a continuous sparge at whatever temperature I set the Stc at. Just gotta set the flow and sit the probe in pot.


I did think about doing that too, as the extra height difference would mean it would have more forces for the wort to flow through back into the main pot. Not sure if I would like my wort draining and splashing back into the main vessel for an hour. But most people say HSA doesn't exist in a homebrew environment. I don't see the outside of the pot being exposed a huge issue for heat loss, there are plenty of 3V mash tuns that run a HERMS/RIMS and are not insulated. In effect this would not be all that different and the controller would ensure overall the temperature dot not drop. You would need to have a return arm that can be dropped into / attached to the pot, that could be removed for removing the pot. The main downside is you would have to match the speed of the pump to the draining speed accurately. Too fast the pot overflows, too slow and the top of the grain bed would become dry. You could put a tube up the center of the 19L pot as an overflow, the top would be just shy of the outer lip of the pot. So rather than overflowing the pot, the wort can overflow and run down the center tube. I'm not sure if it would be worth using mesh on the top, without mesh you could get grains passing down it, with mesh you risk the grain blocking it and allow the main pot to overflow.


----------



## jonnir

I'll do some research on this hot side aeration but just a quick explanation would be fantastic! Is there flavor issues? I suppose if I can get the height correct it would be similar to how you have yours sitting while your sparging. So that could be a way around the splashing.

Also I don't plan on having a fixed arm. Just some silicone tube sitting in the middle of the pot, similar idea to your arm but will have a fitting on the end of the tube for some weight.

I'm gonna give this way a go and will report back.


----------



## QldKev

The theory is splashing wort when hot can result in long term some unwanted flavors being developed. Remember some of these flavors will not develop immediately, it could just setup the precursors of them. How to brew link for HSA

Mine does allow some aeration during sparging, as the wort level touching the bottom of the pot is the level where I finish at. But it is only 1 pass of wort as it drains and not a constant recirculation doing it. I've never noticed an issue from HSA, but I try and minimize it where possible by design.


----------



## Rambo

Hey Kev, hoping you can help me. Currently in the process of finishing off a build similar to yours, and can't work out where to put the temp probe. Do you still have yours down towards the bottom of your pot? Any problems with temp differences between the mash and what you're measuring?

Cheers... and thanks for sharing your design


----------



## QldKev

Rambo said:


> Hey Kev, hoping you can help me. Currently in the process of finishing off a build similar to yours, and can't work out where to put the temp probe. Do you still have yours down towards the bottom of your pot? Any problems with temp differences between the mash and what you're measuring?
> 
> Cheers... and thanks for sharing your design



The temp probe is still in the same place, the bottom of the pot and not too close to the heating element. The majority of the enzyme activity occurs in the wort and not within the grain itself. That's why any long term HERMS and RIMS users always measure from the exit of the heat exchanger, as that is where you get the best reading and it prevents the wort being overheated and converting at too high a temperature. Measuring the wort at the hottest point there will always be some temperature lag within the grain bed during ramping up of temperatures. We can minimize that temperature lag by having sufficient wort flow through the grain bed so a decent false bottom design is required that allows a good flow without getting stuck mashes. The malt pipe/inner pot setup has the additional advantage that the mash bed is additionally heated from the wort surrounding it and not just the wort flowing through it.


----------



## Rambo

Cheers. Thanks for taking the time for a thorough explanation... Bottom of the pot it is.

Always learning!


----------



## Simpsoid

Hi Kev,

Where did you get the reflective insulation wrap for your kettle? Is it Reflectix?

I can't seem to find any anywhere, for cheap, that does a decent job. I also don't really need 60 metres of the stuff.

Thanks!


----------



## QldKev

Simpsoid said:


> Hi Kev,
> 
> Where did you get the reflective insulation wrap for your kettle? Is it Reflectix?
> 
> I can't seem to find any anywhere, for cheap, that does a decent job. I also don't really need 60 metres of the stuff.
> 
> Thanks!


Mine doesn't have a foil type insulation. I used material. An old blanket, then a stretchy material (think boob tube material) over it.


----------



## Pugwash

/Hi QldKev, 

Over the last couple of months I have been putting together a 1 vessel system. I thought your design was one of the simplest and best, so a copied it. Hope you don't mind. I haven't used it yet. Do you think it will flow enough with the amount of holes and slits I have cut? I'm going to make a Matho’s Controller for it as well. Thanks for sharing the ideas etc.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/8800-img-1950

I'm not sure how to insert images. However have an album in the gallery section.


----------



## paulyman

Man that looks awesome Pugwash. I'm trying the same thing, but yours looks so much better than mine. Great job.


----------



## lael

Looks great pugwash! Your outer pot looks beautiful. Where did you get it?


----------



## Pugwash

http://www.fischerequip.com.au/cookware-c7/ It is a catering equipment mob. I though the prices weren't bad. Comparable to brew shops.


----------



## CoxR

Looks good mate, I have been building similar, with some help from Kev. Your pot looks far better than my keg though.


----------



## lael

What size is the pot?


----------



## Pugwash

50L. I seems pretty solid. Thickist walls. Strong handles(riveted through though). Thick base. Not that the base mattered so much, as I'm internally heating. The build quality could be slightly better(nothing really to worry about). A bit more capacity then a crown urn. But not as much a 70L brew pot. I couldn't see myself ever doing double batches.


----------



## Eagleburger

noice... What did you seal the wood with? I made a similar trolley for my two 1-vessels. Tossing up between epoxy or 1-pack polyurethane. Here is some pics of mine, looks ghetto compared to yours. I have done a few brews on mine but am yet to fit out my trolley with filters, counter-flow chiller, pumps, hose reel etc

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1184-brewery-build/


----------



## Eagleburger

Ideally, the outlet of the pump would be at the top so you dont have any trapped air. I have read that hot side oxidation can cause off flavors. Probably just being pedantic as I am with such things.


----------



## Pugwash

Hi Eagleburger. I used a kitchen bench/chopping block oil. Basically tung oil. It does have a matt finish but with a few coats you can build more of a shine. It shouldn't contaminate food/grain once it has dried. However, the main reason I used it was that I was worried about heat ruining the finish. I though a poly, etc couldn't handle the heat. I can re-oil if needed. I hope it is good. Don't know for sure.


----------



## QldKev

Pugwash said:


> /Hi QldKev,
> 
> Over the last couple of months I have been putting together a 1 vessel system. I thought your design was one of the simplest and best, so a copied it. Hope you don't mind. I haven't used it yet. Do you think it will flow enough with the amount of holes and slits I have cut? I'm going to make a Matho’s Controller for it as well. Thanks for sharing the ideas etc.
> 
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/8800-img-1950
> 
> I'm not sure how to insert images. However have an album in the gallery section.


Glad you liked the design. A functional simple setup was the plan. I think the base should have plenty of open area for the wort to flow.


----------



## Jazzafish

This build has inspired me to do a similar build. Pot acquired today and modifications begun to put it in my urn.

Thanks Kev


----------



## QldKev

Here's a


----------



## lael

Cool vid Kev. How often do you use this system vs your larger system now?


----------



## QldKev

lael said:


> Cool vid Kev. How often do you use this system vs your larger system now?


I only made 3 batches of beer on the big system this year, the rest (maybe 30?) were done on the little system.


----------



## lael

Just cause of the convenience?


----------



## QldKev

It makes brew day a lot more fun and easy. I enjoy that there is not a lot to setup and clean. Allows me to experiment with a lot of recipes. Also I can knock out a brew pretty fast by backing up the heating with an immersion element. About 15mins and I'm at strike temp.

Don't get me wrong both systems are great. If I was time poor, then the 3V punching out 4 x 28L cubes at a time would be my choice. But at the moment I'm enjoying more brew days.


----------



## Moad

This has inspired me QK, I too have the 3v rig but it isn't really feasible to do less than a double batch. My list of "to brew" experimental batches is growing and this may be the answer.

I'll likely PM you or start another thread but for now I have a few quick questions:

Firstly, what would the total cost be approximately? I need a project but if is is going to run up around $500 or so then I may be better off picking of a grainfather...

Would a little brown pump be sufficient? You helped me build an old version of this rig and it seemed to do the job on it. I would imagine the pump you use may be cost prohibitive this time around. If it is a necessity then I will start on other parts of the project while scraping some coin together.

Is the benefit of mathos controller that you can program step mashes? I'll do some more reading on this.

I see you have used a keg, what would be the best alternative for the outside pot? What size would be best?

I avoided welding last time but it looks like I will have to find someone to do some simple welds for me.

Would you do anything differently if you were to build from scratch again?

Cheers,

Nick.


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> This has inspired me QK, I too have the 3v rig but it isn't really feasible to do less than a double batch. My list of "to brew" experimental batches is growing and this may be the answer.
> 
> I'll likely PM you or start another thread but for now I have a few quick questions:
> 
> Firstly, what would the total cost be approximately?
> Total cost, I didn't spend much on it.
> the element was a cheap uxcel $8 (about $20 inc enclosures, cord, etc)
> keg i had
> plumbing fittings I had
> 2m of the cheap $5.95 silicone hose
> pump was about $80
> big W pot, $20
> stainless bolts/bar/rod $20-$30
> insulation was what ever I had on hand
> matho's controller was about $200.  (a budget sestos setup would be a bit over $50)
> 
> I need a project but if is is going to run up around $500 or so then I may be better off picking of a grainfather...
> It's always more fun to build things, but I think the grainfather for $1K is great buying. Once they piss off that dual element setup and throw a basic pid in there it will be awesome. The bonus is it looks more bllingy. Also you can get the other head for it making it dual purpose should you ever go that way.
> 
> 
> Would a little brown pump be sufficient? You helped me build an old version of this rig and it seemed to do the job on it. I would imagine the pump you use may be cost prohibitive this time around. If it is a necessity then I will start on other parts of the project while scraping some coin together.
> It wold do the job, but if you can get one of the kaixin mp-15 for about $60 which would help ensure the element doesn't get burnt.
> 
> Is the benefit of mathos controller that you can program step mashes? I'll do some more reading on this.
> Yep, pid and it supports multiple steps, and mainly for the bling. Any pid even with manual steps would be great. So a sestos pid is still a great way, but without the multiple steps.
> 
> I see you have used a keg, what would be the best alternative for the outside pot? What size would be best?
> Kegs are great. Our metal recyclers sells stainless for $2 kg. A keg is approx 13kg. Just got to find one who doesn't make up a random price for it on the day. Otherwise any 50-60L pot.
> 
> I avoided welding last time but it looks like I will have to find someone to do some simple welds for me.
> No real need to weld. The rod for the inner pot handle could just be bent around the bolt, and done up with some wide washers. The upper support could be done the same was a braumeister does with a U type shape rod for the inner pot to sit one.
> 
> Would you do anything differently if you were to build from scratch again?
> I still want to swap the old plumbing parts for some bling stainless camlocks. One day
> Possibly get some blingy looking insulation for it
> Not knocking matho's controller, but in hind site I wished I went the EmbeddedControlConcepts setup.
> Also a skinnier taller inner and outer pot, with the inner one over 20L would be great.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick.


If you ever get up this way look me up and we can throw a brew through on mine. Best way to see if you like it in action.


----------



## Moad

Awesome thanks mate, the element was my next question... I thought the pump would be more than that too.

I'll go over yours in a bit more detail and no doubt have some more questions. 

Edit: why bcs? Bling factor? Seems overkill on this build

I'll be up that way in March but not sure of itinerary yet, could be a goer. Thanks for the offer


----------



## QldKev

Here's a couple of links for the mp-15 pump, both have the newer high temp head
Craftbrewer, includes plug $70
National Home Brew, need your own plug $65
(These are just 2 suppliers I use, there are more ones out there)

Also do you have a pump on the existing system that you could port between the 2 setups?


BCS, mainly bling and so I can monitor it from my office


----------



## Moad

hahaha I thought so re:BCS. I am looking into it, may be a little over my head without significant research. If I was tackling an electronics project like that it would more likely be something like kegbot to monitor keg levels. 

I actually have a spare March pump that came with the 3v so will use that!

With the elements, anything in particular I should be looking at? Putting a 20A circuit in the garage this weekend if that makes a difference.

Will start looking at some pots


----------



## QldKev

I went for a cheap $7 uxcell 2,000w element. It was just a concept to see how it went so I got the cheapest. I went for 2,000w so by the time I add the pump and controller I am still under the 10amp for a standard GPO. Only thing is these elements have gone up a lot since then, making other cheap water system elements look more attractive. With 2,000w it does take a bit to get to the boil, and I have needed to wrap it in 3 layers of insulation to get a decent boil off amount. So 2,000w is the min and not the best. Depending on power on the day I often throw in an immersion element to speed things up. With both running it is fast, but once I hit the boil I only run the 2,000w element.

With 20amps you have a few choices, you could get a big element and also a voltage controller. Then you can crank it up for ramping to strike and to the boil etc, and once you hit the boil drop the volts until you get a nice boil. The Camco from Amazon and ebay have a good reputation. If it was mine I would do the volt controller ($10 to $50) and a Camco 3500w ultra low density (approx $30odd)

5star also does some decent 2400w elements in weld or weldless that are reliable. 2400w weldless, or 3600w weldless. I run a couple of the 2400w weldless for another hobby and they have been great, and being stainless housing they look bling too.

Your sparky will know, but ensure they use a decent heavy duty cable that meets or exceeds the power rating of the element.


----------



## husky

I have recently had to size some elements for my boil kettle and found the following calculation useful. It does assume ideal conditions and does not account for losses but it has served me well. Cant figure out how to link the excel but you'll get the idea. We know how much energy is required to evaporate 1kg water @100 degrees so you just need to enter your boil off rate required. I usually aim for 12% so for a standard single batch your 2Kw element is right in the ball park as you have found. Have you measured your boil off % with just the 2kw in a single batch Kev? 


*[SIZE=medium]Heat Transfer Calculations[/SIZE]* 
[SIZE=medium]hfg - water[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]2257[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]kj/kg[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Target Evaporation[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]12%[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]per hour[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Start Volume[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]28[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]L[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Evaporation Volume[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]3.36[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]L[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Energy Required[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]7583.52[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]kj [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Power required to evap in 60 mins[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]2.106533[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]kW[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]edit: bugger, table doesn't come in.[/SIZE]


----------



## Moad

Throw in Google sheets or drop box?

Thanks Kev I'll hold off on any more questions for now.

edit: I know it isn't a PID but I have a spare flashed STC that I could use to control element for step mashing... thoughts?


----------



## QldKev

husky said:


> I have recently had to size some elements for my boil kettle and found the following calculation useful. It does assume ideal conditions and does not account for losses but it has served me well. Cant figure out how to link the excel but you'll get the idea. We know how much energy is required to evaporate 1kg water @100 degrees so you just need to enter your boil off rate required. I usually aim for 12% so for a standard single batch your 2Kw element is right in the ball park as you have found. Have you measured your boil off % with just the 2kw in a single batch Kev?
> 
> 
> *[SIZE=medium]Heat Transfer Calculations[/SIZE]*
> [SIZE=medium]hfg - water[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]2257[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]kj/kg[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Target Evaporation[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]12%[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]per hour[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Start Volume[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]28[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]L[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Evaporation Volume[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]3.36[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]L[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Energy Required[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]7583.52[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]kj [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Power required to evap in 60 mins[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]2.106533[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]kW[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=medium]edit: bugger, table doesn't come in.[/SIZE]


I often start with a 32L and end at 28L, which works out at 12% boil off


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> Throw in Google sheets or drop box?
> 
> Thanks Kev I'll hold off on any more questions for now.
> 
> edit: I know it isn't a PID but I have a spare flashed STC that I could use to control element for step mashing... thoughts?



I think a STC is a great start up controller, heaps better than manually trying to do it.


----------



## Moad

Great, I can even save multiple profiles with the STC+ firmware.

I note earlier you said the probe is fine below the inner pot, is this still your thinking? Why not on the return?

Nothing really different here but these are my thoughts, would like to have a little control box. The pump isn't neccessarily below the pot either, my paint skills are piss weak.

What would you suggest for quick disconnects on the liquid lines, I'll add power cable disconnects on the element and pump lines as well as something for the probe so I can strip it right down for cleaning/storage.








edit: I did say I wouldn't ask any more questions but I'm all pumped (<-- see what I did there) for another project now.


----------



## QldKev

The idea of the temperature probe is to be in the hottest part of the wort as the enzyme activity occurs in the wort. So in the middle of the grain bed would be a bad place to monitor it as the return wort could far exceed this temperature especially when ramping up temperatures. On a traditional mash tun the return after any HX is normally the best spot as it is an easy spot to pick up that warm wort. But to clarify my temp pickup on my 3V is from the HERMS output as it exits the coil, and not after the return hose as it could potentially lose a small amount of heat into the hose. Realistically we are talking minute amounts of heat difference in the 2 spots.

In the case of our 1V since the sump area (area below pot) is free moving wort that is getting recirculated by the lower pump return I think it would potentially be the best spot as it is in direct contact to the heated wort at the hottest point. By putting it at the top of the return hose you stand to lose some heat from the wort prior to that point. Once again I think the heat loss would be very minimal so both positions make a great spot. Not that it is a huge concern, but should the pump fail then the probe in the sump would still detect the temperatures there and prevent potential boiling.

For the plumbing I like the camlocks I have on my 3V, and one day will upgrade my 1V with them. I got them from T&S valves. I've noticed these days most sponsors and also ebay has them. There is no set specification for them, so camlocks from different suppliers may not fit each other. I know the ebay ones will not fit the T&S valves ones.

I agree with the idea of being able to unplug everything from the system. The more crap you can unplug and get out the way the easier cleanups are. On my 1V all hoses, pump, controller, etc all get stored in it between uses.


Feel free to ask question, it's what we are here for


----------



## QldKev

Also talking about heating elements, I noticed

20L Braumeister (25L wort) = 2,000w
50L Braumeister (55L wort) = 3,200w
30L Grainfather (?? wort) = 2,000w

Also the shape of the pot will make a difference to the amount of heating required. A skinny tall pot will require less heat than a wider one.


----------



## Moad

Cheers mate, I am thinking a 2400w water element. The braumeister elements have alot of surface area to avoid scorching etc

and regarding the return, makes complete sense. Another benefit of the dual return.


----------



## QldKev

Another thought regarding the STC,  I ran a STC for nearly a year before updating to matho's controller. :super:


----------



## Moad

I was thinking I could use it for step mashing but it is only one step per hour unfortunately. Might still go with mathos or look at bcs. Will depend on budget once I tally it all up


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> I was thinking I could use it for step mashing but it is only one step per hour unfortunately. Might still go with mathos or look at bcs. Will depend on budget once I tally it all up


Also dont forget the Auber ramp/soak pid, it's what I'm running on my 3V. But it's not the most user friendly thing to play with.


----------



## Pugwash

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1267-1-vessel-system/

Sorted some insulation for it. Now just to make a Matho/Lael's controller.


----------



## QldKev

Pugwash said:


> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1267-1-vessel-system/
> 
> Sorted some insulation for it. Now just to make a Matho/Lael's controller.


That looks really neat and professional. How are you planning on sitting the pot in the draining position.


----------



## Pugwash

I don't have the welding skills to put pegs in the pot wall. I'm just going to hang it from the beam above in the shed. I like how yours sits a the right height to show the correct wort level etc. Not sure what I'm going to do about measuring wort levels. I don't have a sight glass. I think I'll make up a measuring stick of some sort. Suggestions?


----------



## QldKev

Here's my flash measurements. I've only drawn back gone over them once in 2 years. I was going to make something more bling, but it wont make better beer.












also check out this thread on etching


----------



## Pugwash

I think I might do the same as you. I'm still learning about all-grain. I was going to no-chill in a cube. I have a 17.5 Litre cube already. Should I use it, then add 5 litres of water when I put it into the fermenter. Or just go and buy a 20 Litre or 25Litre Cube?


----------



## QldKev

If it was me I would get the correct size cube for your batches. But a lot of people on ere do higher gravity boils and water it down.


----------



## Moad

Hey Kev,

Got alot of stuff sorted now, looking at fittings for the return arms.

I'm thinking I'll need a ball valve top and bottom, what did you use to connect them up.

I'm going cam locks as you suggested, they look easy. All stainless so far so would be great to continue with that

Edit, will run a camlock male at the bottom of the return into a tee piece. Do I just need some pipe and compression fittings up to the top one into an elbow?


----------



## CoxR

I have used silicone tube with bsp male swivels that have a hose barb. The only cam locks I have are on the pump.


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> Hey Kev,
> 
> Got alot of stuff sorted now, looking at fittings for the return arms.
> 
> I'm thinking I'll need a ball valve top and bottom, what did you use to connect them up.
> 
> I'm going cam locks as you suggested, they look easy. All stainless so far so would be great to continue with that
> 
> Edit, will run a camlock male at the bottom of the return into a tee piece. Do I just need some pipe and compression fittings up to the top one into an elbow?



Check out pugwash's for the way he done his plumbing looks very neat. Only difference I would do is have camlocks on the hoses that go down to the pump so they can be removed for cleaning and storage.


----------



## Moad

Yeah looks similar to what I was thinking but what is linking the top and bottom ball valves? From the elbow to the T and from the T to the bottom elbow?

Are the just threaded pipe lengths?

Cheers


----------



## Pugwash

Yeah. Just threaded pipe, about 2inchs long. You have to get the right length so it is not too long or too short. It is a bit of stuffing around.


----------



## QldKev

Mine is a slightly different setup with the ball valves sticking out from the pot and the pump feed coming in from the bottom, I used a chunk of silicone hose between the top and bottom valves. Mine was built from a mis-match of hose fittings that I had laying around. The top is just a hose fitting and the bottom has a threaded T with a hose tail. With the ball valves sticking out they take a bit more space up, but the top one is pretty handy to pick the pot up from.


----------



## QldKev

Actually this pic from my first brew day on it is probably better for the plumbing.


----------



## paulyman

What is the insulation you are using pugwash?


----------



## Pugwash

I had a foam camp mattress that I was going to use. However, I saw this stuff at Bunnings and thought I give it a go. http://www.bunnings.com.au/ideal-diy-floors-900mm-black-anti-fatigue-rib-foam-matting-roll-_p6610195 I thought is would be a bit neater and more durable. More expense, but what the heck, I already blew my budget. Also thought about using rubber backed carpet. I was worried that the foam would melt. So did an underlay of a $5 cotton towel. Did my first brew in it a couple of days ago. No signs of melting and some of the foam was in contact with the pipe and valve. Left in on during the boil. You might be able to get away with just the foam but I like that the towel provided more insulation.


----------



## marksy

This looks really good QLD Kev. I have some controllers on order from Lael and I think I might go down this path for the build. 

For the people who have made one, do you guys sparge? and if so how do you go about it?

I`m thinking the the malt pipe returning, adding a tube for sparging, that I can lift the malt pipe out and rinse that way. 

The cam locks look great, what do you guys think about quick disconnects? 

marksy.


----------



## Moad

thanks fellas

Pug - where did you get that threaded pipe from?

edit - marksy I used the stainless QD's from onlinebrewingstore in the past and they were great. I'm going camlocks this time because they are cheaper and look to be a popular choice

Sorry another question - I am hoping to get away with weldless... I can't find any stainless full threaded pipe to cut to size.

Do I just get a nipple and a nut with a washer and have the hex piece on the outside of the vessel?


----------



## QldKev

marksy said:


> This looks really good QLD Kev. I have some controllers on order from Lael and I think I might go down this path for the build.
> 
> For the people who have made one, do you guys sparge? and if so how do you go about it?
> 
> I`m thinking the the malt pipe returning, adding a tube for sparging, that I can lift the malt pipe out and rinse that way.
> 
> The cam locks look great, what do you guys think about quick disconnects?
> 
> marksy.



I started with disconnects, but they started leaking etc after a year or so. So I've gone with cam locks and haven't had issues.

Check out , I bucket sparge 2/3 the way into it.


----------



## Moad

Could I use a male compression fitting inside the kettle, with a washer and silicon washer inside the hex part of it. Then screw the ball valve into the other side of the compression fitting? Would there be enough thread.

This is the piece im talking about...http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-2-BSPx16MM-Double-Ferrule-Tube-Fitting-Male-Connector-BSP-Stainless-Steel-304-/111335825439


----------



## marksy

Thanks for the quick replies every body. 

Cam locks seem to be the way to go. 

Thanks for the link Kev, I just realized I had the video open in another tab ready to watch. ha-ha. Looking now. 


Cheers

marksy


----------



## Pugwash

Prochem are very good quality. http://www.prochem.com.au/contact-us/
Craftbrewer stock these https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2844
ebay from China. Cheap but I have heard about problems with quality
I got mine from a local supplier here in Bundy. Decent price and not bad quality.


----------



## Pugwash

Just watch the thread. Pipe comes in BSP (British Standard Pipe) where the thread goes all the way in and NPT (National Pipe Thread(American)) which is tapered. NPT doesn't screw all the way in and is hard to get a seal when going through a kettle wall.


----------



## Moad

Thanks Pugwash, if I don't go the china stainless I think I'll start out with Brass and upgrade to stainless later


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> Thanks Pugwash, if I don't go the china stainless I think I'll start out with Brass and upgrade to stainless later


All mine are still brass on my 1V and 3V  

I did get sent a KegKrap "Stainless Pipe with External ½” BSP Thread - 35mm Long (005656)" to try out but never got around to swapping it over


----------



## Moad

The exchange rate killed me on the PID's so trying to be a bit cheap on the remaining work.


There was a thread on that supplier (chinese ebay stainless fittings) and the feedback was that the quality was acceptable so I am really not sure what to do


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> The exchange rate killed me on the PID's so trying to be a bit cheap on the remaining work.
> 
> 
> There was a thread on that supplier (chinese ebay stainless fittings) and the feedback was that the quality was acceptable so I am really not sure what to do


I have purchased heaps and heaps of stainless gear from 2014online on ebay, excellent supplier for stainless stuff. When ever I get around to updating the remaining parts for this hobby they will be my source of parts.


----------



## Moad

That was the seller.

Thanks Kev, back to stainless it is hahaha.

Just need to measure of those threaded pipe lengths so it is aaaal stainless.

Hopefully I can get enough thread on the compression fittings through the wall of the keg to put the elbows on


----------



## Bomber Watson

Pugwash said:


> Just watch the thread. Pipe comes in BSP (British Standard Pipe) where the thread goes all the way in and NPT (National Pipe Thread(American)) which is tapered. NPT doesn't screw all the way in and is hard to get a seal when going through a kettle wall.


Dont forget bspt. Bsp thread with a taper.


----------



## teebee

Hi qldkev love the design mate, I'm looking to set up my 40l crown urn similarly and was looking for some advice. I'm thinking of a pizza tray as a false bottom as 12" will fit quite snug and continue to use a bag. What is the height difference between your 'false bottom' or bottom of your inner pot and bottom of your kettle? With the element being in the centre of the urn should I aim to pass the flow from the return tube over it or continue to set it up so it whirlpools like yours. I fear if I whirlpooled it I would create a scorching problem.


----------



## QldKev

The pizza tray I used originally had 100mm legs. I would direct the wort stream across the element, as you said the key is to prevent the scorching.


----------



## teebee

Thanks mate, and are you fittings and pipe 1/2" or 3/8"? Does it make a difference between the two?


----------



## QldKev

All mine are 1/2" BSP. Most main home brew pumps now recommend using 3/4" on the inlet and 1/2" on the return side.


----------



## Pugwash

Hi QldKev

I have brewed twice in my 1V. I'm continuing to have trouble with the mash sticking/flowing very slowly. I have to have my top return on just a trickle or on then shut off etc. I have added more holes to the 'malt pipe' but this doesn't seem to of helped much. I end up have to disturb the grain bed to get it to flow. The wort then gets very 'murky', however this does settle out at the end of the boil and in the fermenter and cooling cube. One of the advantages I was hope for with this system was a clearer wort.

Here is a picture of the crashed grain (done at the LHB shop, I'm not sure what setting they have their mill on.)
Both mashs I have had trouble with contained Wheat Malt. This one pictured was for a Golden Ale (2.6kg of Pale, 850g of Munich 1, 850g of Wheat, 40g of Caraaroma) The other recipe only had 400g of wheat malt.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/8993-img-2223/

This is the malt pipe in current form. 3/32inch holes and 1mm grinder slits. 
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/8994-img-2227/

Any suggestions? Should I drill the holes out to 2.5mm? Drill more holes? Try to get a different crush? Any other ideas.


----------



## QldKev

By the sounds of when you stir the wort you are ending up channeling, hence the wort not really clarifying after that point. The crush looks good. The slots and holes look like there is plenty.

When you say the mash is sticking, it the inner pot filling up and overflowing?


----------



## Pugwash

Yeah, the inner pot drains very slowly and would fill and overflow if left. I think the slits in your pot are much longer. Allowing a much greater flow through. I made them shorter and used more holes because I was worried about the strength of the base. The top return has to be on only trickle (nothing even close to the the flow you get). How many litres of water do you put in for mashing. I put about 26L. Is the bottom of you inner pot below the wort level in the outer pot?


----------



## QldKev

The wort level in my outer pot would be almost half the way up the innner pot. My slits are def longer, but if I designed it again I would have gone with more your length. Your local, let me know when you are brewing next and I'll help empty your beer fridge. I think it will be easiest to see it and see what is happening.


----------



## RobB

Pugwash said:


> .............I'm continuing to have trouble with the mash sticking/flowing very slowly. I have to have my top return on just a trickle or on then shut off etc
> 
> ................Both mashs I have had trouble with contained Wheat Malt.
> 
> .............Any suggestions? Should I drill the holes out to 2.5mm? Drill more holes? Try to get a different crush? Any other ideas.


Have you tried rice hulls? Even if you don't fancy using them for every brew, they could at least confirm whether or not it's your crush. I have a similar system to QldKev's and I routinely throw them in at 5% of the total grain weight plus an additional 5% for anything without a husk. I have had brews where the entire 15 L/min flow (Kaixin pump) went through the grain bed without needing my overflow diversion (my alternative to QldKev's bottom valve).

Even though my grain bed is obviously very free flowing, my wort clarity and efficiency are excellent.

I think you're only a minor tweak away from getting the wort you want. Best of luck.


----------



## Pugwash

Sounds great. It won't be for a while, but I'll let you know. Cheers.


----------



## Pugwash

Thanks Malty Cultural. Will try the rice hulls if I can't sort it out. Worth a try.


----------



## Moad

Some progress pics, all wired up and tested with some sodium perc through to clean. We made 2 at the same time but got this one up and running.

Very happy with the fittings purchased from 2014online particularly the camlocks. Everything can be unplugged from the control box, pump and vessel meaning small footprint.

Just need some insulation and a trolley/stand. Also need to finish drilling holes in the internal pot and add little bolts on the outside to lift it out.

Not sure what I am going to do about the lid, will possibly use the pot lid and cover it in a few layers of camping mat insulation.

For the top return I'll be using some silicone hose into the compression fitting.

Will post some pics when complete, thanks for the ideas Kev


----------



## marksy

Hey Moads, how does the keg go with the top off like you've done?? Solid?


----------



## Cervantes

I have a brew kettle done the same way. It's as solid as a rock and much easier to clean.


----------



## CoxR

I did the same, it makes it real easy to clean. The only thing I need to do is cut out a piece of stainless plate to go over the top and cut out a whole in that the same size as the lid from the 20L Big W pot for a decent top


----------



## Moad

It is solid as, absolutely no concerns about that. It just makes it harder to make a lid/cover but worth it for ease of cleaning/moving etc


----------



## marksy

Sweet I might cut mine off then.


----------



## Cervantes

I use an old Wok lid from the salvo's. It's a perfect fit.


----------



## Dazzbrew

Cut the keg from the side, right on the bottom edge of the weld where the crown joins the keg body. That way you can plug the hole in the top and use it as a lid. I got a couple of handles welded onto the keg and also some lugs on the crown/lid so it cant fall off.


----------



## paulyman

My rig is finally fully operational. Recirc valves installed instead of just hanging silicone hose over the side.


----------



## Dazzbrew

Beerisyummy said:


> -The mash screens are these ones http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10165849/ I use two now for my fine ground wheat beer and one of these http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10165849/ with the glass smashed out as a seal. You can get away with just one screen for most beers..


would these screens work ok as a false bottom in a kettle, are they fine enough mesh to filter trub?


----------



## sponge

Picked up my 'malt pipe' yesterday after having some mods made to it. I might have to slap a picture or two up..


----------



## dropbear85

Dazzbrew said:


> would these screens work ok as a false bottom in a kettle, are they fine enough mesh to filter trub?


I use one of those screens as a filter for in my big w 19l malt basket. works well, if anything it's a touch on the too fine side but it does the job


----------



## sponge

100L pot with legs and 250mm hole in the base for bottom drain and removable false bottom. If I find the bottom drain to cause too much channeling I can just drill some more holes on the base of the pot.


----------



## takai

Hm, feeling a bit brain dead today. But why the lower recirculation entry point?


----------



## crowmanz

I think it is so there is always wort flow over the element to avoid scorching.


----------



## takai

crowmanz said:


> I think it is so there is always wort flow over the element to avoid scorching.


Ah of course, hence no overflow on the malt pipes. Knew i was feeling brain dead today.


----------



## woodwormm

Hi, Couple questions re a 1 Vessel build, hope this is an ok spot, happy to shift to new thread if deemed.

on the malt pipe, if i put a "lid" on it to contain the grain, is the height of the lid determined by the size of the bill? ie just put the grain in then the lid on top accordingly? also does it need an overflow pipe? or can it just overflow outside the malt pipe if it can't flow through the gran quick enough?

on the Kettle, if if use a keggle, any opinions on centre or side draining? I'm quite keen on the upside down keg and using triclover fitting to use its natural draining ability? 

cheers


----------



## paulyman

printed forms section said:


> also does it need an overflow pipe? or can it just overflow outside the malt pipe if it can't flow through the gran quick enough?


Mine (see photos above), is like QLDKev's and has an inlet that aims straight at the element. That way if a stuck mash does occur there is still ample flow through the system and it hopefully minimises scorching. Can't help with the other bits I'll let somewhere better qualified answer those.


----------



## marksy

Hey,

I`m finally looking to build something like this now (doing a parts list), my one question is:

How do you guys sparge? Have some pre-heated water and just pour it over the grain bed when its draining?

Or do you just add all the required water and let it run and just lift the grain out when done???


Cheers.

marksy.


----------



## paulyman

marksy said:


> Hey,
> 
> I`m finally looking to build something like this now (doing a parts list), my one question is:
> 
> How do you guys sparge? Have some pre-heated water and just pour it over the grain bed when its draining?
> 
> Or do you just add all the required water and let it run and just lift the grain out when done???
> 
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> marksy.


At the moment I just no sparge, lift the bag and let it drain, when it slows I put it in a bucket in a bucket made from bunnings handy pails until maybe mid boil. Then I take out the bag for cleaning and carefully drain the bucket into the boil.


----------



## CoxR

I take the pot out and sit it on an oven rack. I let it drain will bringing it to the boil if I don't have the volume I need I pour water heated or room temperature over and tamp down on the grain with a flat pot lid


----------



## marksy

Cool, good replies. Could you in theory add all the water at the start? Then just lift the malt out?

Pros/Cons?


----------



## dannymars

I've either lifted the malt pot/pipe out and transferred the outlet hose to a bucket of 75C water.. (making sure to keep the pump primed etc)... OR have just lifted the malt-pipe out and poured the contents of the bucket in... have noticed no real difference in the two methods.. .and would happily do a no sparge, however if my recirc/mash water volume is too large I feel that the liquid between the main pot and the pipe doesn't move around enough and thus gets cold... (I've check with a thermometer and confirmed).. I have a HERMS which doesn't get all the liquid passing through if I have too much liquid in the mash. 

Heating the pot directly worked, but it's a PITA to ride the gas throughout the whole mash.


----------



## Matplat

I'm about to make a system like this, and I am planning on using my stc-1000 to control mash temp.

Has anyone else done the same? would you put the sensor in the actual mash bed or just hang it in the pot outside the malt pipe?

I was originally thinking of only having one return into the malt pipe, but from what i've read having a second return/whirlpool is pretty important, however at the moment I only have an LBP equivalent which supposedly flows 10 L/min, will this be enough to supply both returns?

Sorry if these questions have been asked earlier in the thread....

Cheers, Matt


----------



## QldKev

My system started life with a stc-1000, heaps better than trying to control it manually. I put my temperature sensor in the wort return. 

Lots of brewers especially BIAB brewers brew for years without the second return flowing against the heating element, it is just insurance. I kind of like that warm and fuzzy feeling it gives me. I think a lot of it will come down to the heat density of the heating element. With 10 lpm I think I would leave out the bottom return, but someone else may be able to chip in who has tried it with the smaller pumps.


----------



## Matplat

Yeah, I was initially thinking of putting the outflow to the pump either next to the heater terminal, or directly opposite (with the heater element pointing at it) to encourage flow around the element thinking that would be enough, but all this talk of scorching got me worried.

I might just add the port and see if the LBP can do it on it's lonesome... if it can't i'l buy another one!

Someone else also mentioned cold spots between pot and malt pipe, which sounds less than ideal so would be good to avoid that too.

I'm an engineer, so process control gives me a hard on :super:

Righto time to go home and drink the first bottle of Jamil's belgian pale ale!


----------



## thebigwilk

I think the return outlet below the mash bed is very important lets call this part of the water below the grain the foundation water. In the system I use I have an elbow fitting on the return above the grain bed and below, both creating a whirlpool effect this helps to avoid any channelling above the mash and also helps to mix an even layer of heated water through the mash. In the case of the foundation water the second return inlet also uses the elbow fitting to create a whirlpool below the mash bed again aiding in the process of eliminating any dead spots and to provide an even heat wave rising through the mash bed and also helping in interrupting any path of least resistance when the water passes through the mash. these are the reasons why I went with this system its very accurate way of controlling your mash.

Cheers!


----------



## Matplat

QldKev said:


> My system started life with a stc-1000, heaps better than trying to control it manually. I put my temperature sensor in the wort return.
> 
> Lots of brewers especially BIAB brewers brew for years without the second return flowing against the heating element, it is just insurance. I kind of like that warm and fuzzy feeling it gives me. I think a lot of it will come down to the heat density of the heating element. With 10 lpm I think I would leave out the bottom return, but someone else may be able to chip in who has tried it with the smaller pumps.


Did you ever run a full 10amps through your stc-1000?

It get's a bit warm running my fridge, so not sure if I need to run it through another relay or not....


----------



## QldKev

Matplat said:


> Did you ever run a full 10amps through your stc-1000?
> 
> It get's a bit warm running my fridge, so not sure if I need to run it through another relay or not....


Never a full 10 amps, but I did brew with my 2,000w element for over a year. Only reason I don't any more was I wanted to check out mathos controller so I converted to it.


----------



## krausenhaus

I've been using a recirculating brew-in-a-basket system for a while (this one) that returned wort through the whirlpool inlet, but I was getting very little wort exchange through the bag and so the bulk of the mash stayed a few degrees under my target temp for the whole mash.

I just upgraded to a top wort return and made a new mash basket out of a Big W pot and a false bottom, like this:






I gave it a spin on the weekend and got very little drainage through the mash. I had it at a trickle most of the time and completely shut off for the rest.

I think there is plenty of open area on the false bottom to give good drainage. The only two reasons I can think of are:

- I used 5% flaked barley in the mash. I didn't use rice hulls or a beta glucan rest, because it was only 5%. That said, I've never used flaked barley in a 3V setup so I don't know how much 5% can stick a lauter but I'm guessing it would be pretty insignificant.

- my pickup at the bottom of the kettle is angled towards the inside wall of the pot rather than towards the bottom of the mash basket, so probably not the best orientation for pulling wort through the mash. Still, I would expect gravity alone to give more flow than I was getting.

Interested to hear input from you guys on this, I'm pretty dissapointed!


----------



## Pugwash

I am having the exact same issue. I haven't brewed in ages as my wife and I just had another baby and have been a bit busy. I have talked about it earlier in this thread. Going to try rice hulls. My mashes have had a bit of wheat in them. Kev's malt pipe has longer slits than mine. But I would have thought like with yours there would be more than drainage. If you find a solution please let me know.


----------



## Fylp

I agree that returning to the top and bottom would get more movement and equaling more even heat, but would you think sucking it in from the bottom would have a similar effect?


----------



## QldKev

I don't think where the pickup is located would matter. Have you tried setting the grain bed before increasing the flow?


----------



## Matplat

In anticipation of having the same problem, (as the first brew I will do on my new system will be 50% wheat) what do you mean by 'setting the grain bed' exactly?


Cheers, Matt


----------



## krausenhaus

Yeah, can you clarify for me as well Kev?


----------



## verysupple

I think he means let it sit for a few min before starting recirculation so that the grain bed settles and forms a filter but does not compact (as can happen if pumping too fast before it has settled properly).


----------



## QldKev

Yep, there is a detailed procedure on here but basically
mash in,
sit for a minute or so with little to no recirc,
increase the flow to a slow speed, sit for a couple of mins,
keep increasing the flow, waiting at each step as you go, until you are happy with the speed.

You will find once you have done it a couple of times you can skip a lot of steps. I normally mash in with a slow flow for a few minutes then increase to a speed i am happy at.


----------



## krausenhaus

I added 150g of rice hulls to today's brew and tried the mash bed setting but still got bugger all flow.

I stirred in another 100g rice hulls (up to 5% of grain bill), went through the setting steps again and now it's filtering well.

Still not sure why it's so slow without the rice hulls but I'm happy, better buy a few kilos.


----------



## Barge

Krausenhaus,

What did you use for your insulation? 

Cheers


----------



## Rambo

Just thought I would share a solution to the draining problem for those like me who don't have welding skills (or friends with welding skills). Didn't want to start a new thread so thought I would add it to the list of solutions on this thread (hope you don't mind Kev).

Pretty simple really. Took the idea Kev uses with the lift and turn onto latches welded to the outer pot, with bolts coming through the malt pipe. But instead of welded latches I've just screwed together a square frame with the inside side length greater than the inner malt pipe but still able to sit on top of the outer pot/urn. The screws just have to be able to fit through the diagonal on the frame. 

No hassle trying to get a trivet under the malt pipe while lifting with one hand, and no spills.


----------



## Barge

Any benefit to leaving each piece of timber longer than necessary?


----------



## Rambo

No. If you don't count that I had already put the saw away.


----------



## Barge

Just wondering. I thought it might have provided some stability. I'm about as handy with a saw as I am with a welder so both options are probably a stretch.


----------



## Syd

C


----------



## krausenhaus

I've done the same thing. I built a frame out of some square tube and brackets, and to the pot I riveted on some flat hooks that I cut off some tea towel holders from bunnings. Here is an old photo of it from my original non-recirculating setup:





The handle is made from stainless rope with some tube at the ends, bent into hooks and attached with JB Weld. One of these failed recently and broke off so I'm trying to figure out a better solution to attach the handle. Not being able to weld sucks.


----------



## krausenhaus

Barge said:


> Krausenhaus,
> 
> What did you use for your insulation?
> 
> Cheers


It's called Aeroflex and I got it from eBay. It's not particularly cheap. Also it tears pretty easily so I need to be careful with it. I glued it to the side of the kettle with Kwik Grip wallpaper glue.


----------



## Moad

Im having drainage issues with a 19L pot too. Slits and holes but maybe not enough.

I'm going to drill some more small holes, basically as many as I can fit. Does anyone use a top plate as insurance against grain escaping? I've considered using a bag but that defeats the purpose of the grain basket!


----------



## Barge

I'm wondering if the whirlpool action that you see in QldKev's videos provides some sort of suction or pressure differential between the top of the pipe and the bottom.

Are the people with draining issues only using a top return, or dual return without a whirlpool?

Does everyone with a whirlpool return have no issues with draining?


----------



## QldKev

I wonder if the drainage issue could be from a finer crush? What crush are you using / any pics?


----------



## Moad

I'm using 1.1 I think, good point though. I'll get some pics today and likely brew on it this week. I might start with more holes first and then look at crush, ideally I would keep the same crush as my 3v system.


----------



## QldKev

Being the same crush as the 3V, I'm thinking it may not be the cause. 

This is my crush, 0.9mm using a mm2 (monster mill)


----------



## dropbear85

could have something to do with the amount of water used during the mash. I had a similar problem and after doing a bit of reading about the grainfather it turned out I was mashing with too much water. 
I have found that you want the water level outside of the malt basket to be lower than on the inside. reason being it means that the water inside the malt basket has a greater head of pressure and forces the water through the grain. if both levels of water are the same then water will be drawn from the path of least resistance (outside of the basket). 
may be a little controversial but the bottom return could be part of the problem as water is basically being returned to the inlet of the pump therefore not sucking the wort throughly the grain. I had a bottom return on the first system I built but found it worked better without one. as long as you have enough grain and water to fill the malt basket plus cover the element and go 3-4 inches up the outside of the basket your element will never run dry. 

just a bit of food for thought


----------



## Matplat

In this post are some photos of the slots I cut in my bigW pot.

I generally flow 1-2l/min at the start of the mash, then flow increases to 6-8l/min as mash progresses....


----------



## krausenhaus

I have a whirlpool return. The bottom of my basket is a commercial false bottom that has shitloads of holes so I don't think drainage is the issue.

I always use rice hulls now and it flows beautifully, so I think the main issue with me is crush. I can't get a good crush right now because the rollers on my minimill are duds - I have to run it through at least twice and it's pretty pounded by the end of it.

I'm happy to use the hulls for now.


----------



## Moad

Anyone using the keg with 19L pot inside, how much water do you start with?

I ran a brew through this week to test it out, started with 23L for 5KG of grain which came about 1/3 - 1/2 way up the inner pot before any grain was added. When grain was in and circulating it dropped to almost the bottom of the inner pot (on the outside). My eff was only 65% 

It didn't seem like the mash was too think, I did mash in too hot though and it may have denatured before conversion really got under way.

I'll brew again this week and start 25L of strike water, hopefully get a bit more than 65%


----------



## CoxR

Full volume for me


----------



## Moad

so what 35L? Does it not overfil the inner pot?


----------



## QldKev

I start about 25L, and hit 85% eff constantly. The crush and pH are keys.


----------



## CoxR

It will depend on the distance between the bottom of the keg and pot.
On mine the water and grain (5kg) will sit about 50-65mm from the top of the inner pot with the recirculation fully open.


----------



## Moad

Went with a coarser crush today and had no flow issues whatsoever but my efficiency was still 65%.

I have a feeling I need to go somewhere between the two. I was at 1mm originally and today 1.4mm. 1.2 might be the sweet spot.


----------



## Moad

Still not getting any better than 65% regardless of the crush. Might be time to start looking at pH

If I could simply throw more grain in I wouldn't worry too much but the small pot restricts me to 6KG


----------



## Matplat

I gained 5% efficiency on my last brew just by getting my ph down..... hydrochloric is cheap and easily available.


----------



## Meddo

G'day all,

I've built myself a 1V recirc system similar to many in this thread as my first step into AG - I don't know anyone who does AG home brew so I figured the best way to learn was to read as much as I could then jump in and have a crack. I've done one brew on it a week or so ago to get a feel of how things fit together and now have a few questions please, now that I know how things are working. The brew mostly seemed to go pretty well although my brewhouse efficiency was only around 62-65% according to BeerSmith. Thanks in advance for any help and info.

Basic specs on my system:

71 litre Cheeky Peak SS kettle
50 litre ebay SS malt pipe
KK magnetic pump
KK 2200W SS element
KK temp controller in SS thermowell on the down-whirlpool side of the element
Batch target 21 litres (until I get a second element)
No-sparge at this stage
The brew was a straight Dr Smurto's Golden Ale taken from the BeerSmith2 database
A few pics of the overall system for context:












1) When recirculating during the mash do we want to be disturbing the grain at all? My initial assumption was no, however I've been reading that BIABers stir their grain so I was wondering if the same needs to happen with the 1V? The video below shows the minimal disturbance I was getting at the top of the bed (by design at the time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8IAjqXS5Ks

2) The photo below shows the slits I've cut in the malt pipe (rough, I know...), flow seems fine through them with the KK/MP15 pump almost wide open at the top return (as per vid above) but I'm wondering if not having them more evenly distributed would be affecting my efficiency?




3) Is the boil below vigorous enough? Given it's only a single batch volume in a double-batch sized vessel I wasn't sure if the entire brew was staying hot enough, particularly around the edges:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Nt8uKzPEw

4) Probably hard to tell without a better scale indication but does the grain grind below look fine enough? It went through my fluted MashMaster mill, I don't have a gauge to work out what it was set at but from memory it wasn't far off it's narrowest setting.






Thanks again :beer:


----------



## sp0rk

Matplat said:


> I gained 5% efficiency on my last brew just by getting my ph down..... hydrochloric is cheap and easily available.


Where do you source yours?
I can't find any food grade locally, and this is really the only other one I could find
https://www.bunnings.com.au/bondall-1l-hydrochloric-acid_p0960232


----------



## Matplat

Yeah I use a similar product that I got from mitre 10.... don't think there is such a thing as 'food grade' HCl, it's potent stuff so there sure aint gonna be any bugs in it.... my chemistry teacher in high school diluted hydrochloric a few hundred times and gave it to us to taste.... tasted like lemon juice.


----------



## Maheel

all those barbells are making me nervous 

i hope your using them to counterbalance your BIAB bag 

cannot quite tell your "location" by the number plate could be QLD based on WBin colors ..... :\
looks like you have got your brewing pretty sorted !!


----------



## marksy

Meddo said:


> G'day all,
> 
> I've built myself a 1V recirc system similar to many in this thread as my first step into AG - I don't know anyone who does AG home brew so I figured the best way to learn was to read as much as I could then jump in and have a crack. I've done one brew on it a week or so ago to get a feel of how things fit together and now have a few questions please, now that I know how things are working. The brew mostly seemed to go pretty well although my brewhouse efficiency was only around 62-65% according to BeerSmith. Thanks in advance for any help and info.
> 
> Basic specs on my system:
> 
> 71 litre Cheeky Peak SS kettle
> 50 litre ebay SS malt pipe
> KK magnetic pump
> KK 2200W SS element
> KK temp controller in SS thermowell on the down-whirlpool side of the element
> Batch target 21 litres (until I get a second element)
> No-sparge at this stage
> The brew was a straight Dr Smurto's Golden Ale taken from the BeerSmith2 database
> A few pics of the overall system for context:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20160605_142717_1.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20160605_125245_1.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20160605_112306_1.jpg
> 
> 
> 1) When recirculating during the mash do we want to be disturbing the grain at all? My initial assumption was no, however I've been reading that BIABers stir their grain so I was wondering if the same needs to happen with the 1V? The video below shows the minimal disturbance I was getting at the top of the bed (by design at the time).
> 
> 
> 
> 2) The photo below shows the slits I've cut in the malt pipe (rough, I know...), flow seems fine through them with the KK/MP15 pump almost wide open at the top return (as per vid above) but I'm wondering if not having them more evenly distributed would be affecting my efficiency?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20160522_174736_1.jpg
> 
> 3) Is the boil below vigorous enough? Given it's only a single batch volume in a double-batch sized vessel I wasn't sure if the entire brew was staying hot enough, particularly around the edges:
> 
> 
> 
> 4) Probably hard to tell without a better scale indication but does the grain grind below look fine enough? It went through my fluted MashMaster mill, I don't have a gauge to work out what it was set at but from memory it wasn't far off it's narrowest setting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20160604_170844_1.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20160604_170808_1.jpg
> Thanks again :beer:



Like to eBay special pot?


----------



## buckerooni

Very nice work Meddo! I like the 3 piece valves with the silicone tubing. 

What I like about this is less thread tape and hopefully less opportunities to leak. Also means you can just unclip those and soak 'em in perc and let the valves dry. Seems like a practical approach.

I might adopt this idea for my build, thanks for sharing (might go some elbows off the ball valves though).

Amazed the 56L fits into the 71L! I got the cheeky peak 100L with this 56L pot: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-LARGE-56L-STAINLESS-STEEL-STOCK-POT-SAUCE-SET/182064174219 and there wasn't alot of room.


----------



## Meddo

marksy said:


> Like to eBay special pot?


Huh. Made a liar of me - it was only a 38L pot I wound up getting in the end, not the 50L. This is the link, anyway: 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/182056075912

The 56L from the same seller is here:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/182064174219



buckerooni said:


> Very nice work Meddo! I like the 3 piece valves with the silicone tubing.
> 
> What I like about this is less thread tape and hopefully less opportunities to leak. Also means you can just unclip those and soak 'em in perc and let the valves dry. Seems like a practical approach.
> 
> I might adopt this idea for my build, thanks for sharing (might go some elbows off the ball valves though).
> 
> Amazed the 56L fits into the 71L! I got the cheeky peak 100L with this 56L pot: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-LARGE-56L-STAINLESS-STEEL-STOCK-POT-SAUCE-SET/182064174219 and there wasn't alot of room.


Yeah as above, recall fail :huh:

Re the valves and camlocks, yeah that was the intention with them being easy to remove. I was a little bit surprised how much tubing I needed to avoid kinks though so I may end up doing as you say and putting elbows off the valves and move the male camlocks to those elbows to cut out some of the curvature and hose length.

The benefit at the moment is I can close the top return and then use the pump (throttled right back) and the hose normally going to the low return to fill the fermenter. If I crack open the top return I even get it sucking a bit of air in to aerate the wort on the way  Hopefully soon I'll have a better stand arrangement though with the kettle a bit higher so I can just gravity feed from a separate hose - again just camlock it on though for quick changeover.

Answering some of my own questions if anyone's interested since I ran brewday #2 on Sunday and got 70% brewhouse efficiency this time around. Unfortunately I changed quite a few things from brewday #1 so I can't isolate which had the most / any effect on that efficiency.

1) I used a silicon hose to recirculate from the top return near wide-open to a point about halfway down the grain bed with the intent that this would keep things stirred up for the first 45 minutes of the mash - little bit hard to tell how much effect it was having below the foam though. I moved the hose outlet above the grain bed and throttled back for the last fifteen minutes to clarify the wort a bit.
2) 7.1 kg grain bill this time around, couldn't quite open the top return fully as the wort level in the malt pipe started rising a bit. Wasn't far off fully open though so seem to be getting plenty of flow through not a lot of slittage.
3) Boil-off seemed to be only about 3-4 litres / hour (haven't etched my kettle yet so hard to tell for sure). So I'm guessing a bit more heating power wouldn't go astray.
4) Ground on the narrowest setting with the fluted Millmaster, didn't look a hell of a lot different (was previously the second narrowest mark). This may have had some effect though on the recirculation rate slowing up a bit from brewday #1 (was only a ~5kg grain bill that time though).


----------



## checkers

Ss


----------



## tumi2

Hi all,

I have read all this thread and found some great information. I am hoping for some guidance as im thinking of moving from gas to electricity so I can auto control my process using www.craftbeerpi.com. There are other reasons for the switch also like safety, automation and controlling temp with a flickering gas flame is a PITA.

My situation is as follows:

- I have been BIAB brewing for 10 years using a very ghetto gas driven mashed up system but it actually works well

- I use an expensive chef grade stainless steel 50 liter pot that I have been reluctant to drill holes in and I use a BIAB bag. I am finding gas heating is a real PITA particularly maintain mash temps, the bag can scorch and I have little kids running around, hence a move to electricity is in my planning.

I have started to think that I should just drill some holes in my quality 50l pot and create a recirc system similar to the ones described in this thread. The caveat here is that I also use the said 50l pot for my yearly batch of Italian Pasata sauce and a few other large scale cooking endeavours. For these projects I still need gas heating so if I convert my pot it must be able to go on the gas burner.

Is it feasible that I convert my pot and use entirely connections that can be removed and replaced with capped plugs that I can put on for my other gas based cooking projects. I obviously don’t want leaks or burnt seals etc. removing and adding the connections would not bother me provided it was simple as I would only do it a couple of times per year.

I welcome any thoughts, thanks


----------



## Matplat

Couldn't you boil your passata using the electric element also?

Silicone seals are good for 250degC, so if you use weldless fittings to mount the element and taps, and need to fry on the base you don't need to worry about the seals.


----------



## tumi2

Matplat said:


> Couldn't you boil your passata using the electric element also?
> 
> Silicone seals are good for 250degC, so if you use weldless fittings to mount the element and taps, and need to fry on the base you don't need to worry about the seals.


I think the tomato sauce would burn directly touching an element. Weldless seems the go using the silicone seals. I didnt realise they are fine to such high temps.


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## Matplat

Yeah think of those silicone pie molds that can be oven baked... people often worry about wort scorching on exposed elements, but I haven't seen it happen to date. When you apply a gas flame to a pot, the inside surface of the pot base gets hot, just like an element, provided you use a sufficiently low watt density element you shouldn't have a problem.


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## tumi2

Is there a reason most use stainless steel plumbing connections. I checked prices and it is way more expensive than brass. Is their a practical reason to use SS over brass or is it appearance only.


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## Matplat

Brass is fine, except you can't clean brass with caustic as it exposes the lead in the brass. Or if you do you need to soak brass components in a mix of peroxide and vinegar after to dissolve the lead


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## tumi2

How is everyone connecting the silicone host to the camlock, its difficult to see from the pictures in this thread? Is it using these nipple attachments

I have read that it is better just to force the hose over a male thread camlock to increase the flow capacity due to the larger diameter.

Interested to hear the thoughts from those who use camlocks?


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## Moad

Moad said:


> Still not getting any better than 65% regardless of the crush. Might be time to start looking at pH
> 
> If I could simply throw more grain in I wouldn't worry too much but the small pot restricts me to 6KG



silly me... 65% brewhouse and closer to 75% mash


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## ScottyDoesntKnow

Reading through this thread, pretty keen to build one of these myself out of a keg and big w 19l pot. The people that were having issues with wort flow through the malt pipe, have you sorted this/tried anything new since? Is pump size possibly another reason why this might be occurring? Cheers.


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## QldKev

I think the major issue is trying to recirc too fast too early. You really need to set the grain bed slowly and increase the flow as the bed stabilises. Most brewers are running the Kaixin mp-15, I'm running the mp-20 (biggger pump) and can flow very fast once the bed is stabilised correctly.


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## ScottyDoesntKnow

Sounds good Kev, I've also read some people who BIAB do a slow lift of the bag at mash in and then lower it back down to help set the grain bed. Maybe this could help set the grain bed within the malt pipe too?


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## Matplat

I had thought that the slow flow rate at the beginning was caused by the starches in the mash at the beginning being more viscous, then as the enzymes do their thing breaking down long chains into shorter ones that it becomes less viscous and thus flows quicker....?

I have to say this is my only dislike of the system, I have to monitor the level in the malt pipe constantly to check it isnt about to overflow, or that the top of the bed has become exposed.... I find it usually takes around 30-40mins to be able to reach a consistent flow rate...

While I'm at it, Kev, I've been meaning to ask you if you could post a photo of the terminal blocks you used on your 2kw element. I'm thinking of adding a similar one to mine to boost power to 3.6kw, for ramping and a more vigorous boil.... I know I saw a photo somewhere, but have searched the entire thread and couldn't find it. 

Cheers, Matt


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## malt junkie

Think about it like this. When grain is wet it expands as it absorbs liquid, this absorbtion isn't instantaneous. What your trying to avoid is compacting or sticking the grain bed. The steps to avoid these issues are the same for every recirculating mash system.


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## QldKev

I think there are several things going on when we mash in. The less viscous starch chains, the swelling of the grains as they take on water, and as the grain bed settles into a grain bed that allows water/wort flow through out of it to act as a filter bed to clarify the wort and not getting sucked down into a solid lump. I find within 5 - 10min I can get a decent flow. I tend to fire up the system slow and walk away for 5 or so mins, come back do a second level flow for another 5mins, then open it up for the main mash. With vols I used to be worry about monitoring it from a dry grain bed/over flowing, but now I tend to mash in with a slightly low water level then top up once the grain is in.

For the terminal blocks etc, here some random pics of the system
http://s988.photobucket.com/user/QldKev/library/1V


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## Hefty

Phew, made it through all the awesome info in this thread to date!
I'm looking to make a system using a 40L crown urn and a 19L big W pot. I already have them from previous brewing set ups. Eventually I'm looking to use a Matho's/Lael's/ardbir type controller but I'm going to start with an STC for now.
Questions:
1. The pot, if I remove the handles, will fit inside the urn, but only just. There is about 1 cm on either side of the inner pot. Is this enough?
2. How do people determine how high to sit their inner pot from the bottom of the urn/kettle. I'll only be making 19-23L single batches. How do I calculate what length of legs/bolts/whatever to get the top of the pot at the right height for the batch volume to fit but not overflow?
3. The urn is made from really thin stainless. Without grabbing, warping or buckling the steel, how have people drilled holes for intakes, outlets etc? hole saw? Spade bit? Any tips on the actual process?

Cheers,
Jono.


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## Chap

Im looking at building the exact same system as Jono above and also am a bit wary of drilling into the urn. Pro tips greatly appreciated. 
On a side note, my urn has a concealed element, so would it still be necessary for a bottom return inlet for the recirc?
Cheers
Chap


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## hairydog

Gday Chap,

I have been using a 40L urn with a malt basket made from ss mesh (thanks rooster boy),I pump the wort
and split the pumps output with one line having a ball valve, one line in the basket to keep an even temperature and one line to the element this helps keep the element from scorching too much especially when using rye and keeps the wort moving around the element.I use my sensor at the point where the wort enters the mash with a T piece and a RTD probed used a 20mm step drill nice and easy at a fairly slow speed with no hassles, check eBay they are sold at quite a good price.I have checked my wort temperature with a thermopen and its pretty well spot on with my PID temp controller.


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## Hefty

Did my first water test yesterday! A few minor leaks fixed and it ramps approx 1 degree per minute with plain water. I presume it will be a little slower in a mash. Can't find a spot to host my video but there's a few after thought photos attached. 






The first one is of an old stainless barbed elbow I had. A few wraps of tape and my temp probe is a good "shove" fit until my thermowell arrives from Ali express.
Qldkev, thanks for your recommendation of 2014online on eBay. Only about 20 dollars more expensive than brass fittings from Bunnings for full stainless and they arrived 2 days before eBay's earliest postage estimates!!
Now just gotta get some ingredients and get brewing!
Cheers!
Jono.


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