# Yeast Starter



## Cloud Surfer (28/11/20)

I’m about to do my first yeast starter. It’s going to be 3L using one Wyeast smack pack. I’m not sure how long before brew day I should make it. I do want to leave 12-24 hours at the end to put it in the fridge to settle so I can decant most of the liquid off the yeast cake. Most references indicate 24 hours is enough time, but is a 3L starter slightly bigger than usual, requiring a bit more time.

Initially, I thought I would make the starter 48 hours before brewing the beer, but would I be better off starting 72 hours out to give it enough time to finish and then get some fridge settling time?


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## razz (28/11/20)

If you are not aiming to pitch the starter at high krausen then I would do the 72 hour thing CS. When you have it coming out of the fridge decant the beer and add some fresh wort, it should get going pretty quick. Are you using a stir plate?


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## MHB (28/11/20)

There are going to be hundreds of answers, at least half wont be the best advice you could take.
Starters are a really complicated question, personally I'm not sure how good a job of yeast propagation a lot of home brewers do. Its too easy to end up with a lot of very unhealthy yeast (how do you know?) or an infected starter. For mine I would rather pitch the yeast I have into a suitable sized batch, crop that yeast and use it for a bigger or stronger batch... you end up with enough healthy yeast to do what you want, Know for a certainty that there will be some bugs in that yeast and that at some point it all falls down and you get an infected brew.

Have a read of Braukaiser on yeast propagation, his yeast growth experiment is worth reading to.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (28/11/20)

razz said:


> If you are not aiming to pitch the starter at high krausen then I would do the 72 hour thing CS. When you have it coming out of the fridge decant the beer and add some fresh wort, it should get going pretty quick. Are you using a stir plate?


I’m making my yeast starter setup today. Got a 5L flask and bought a stir plate from KL. Just making the stir ‘plate’ bigger to better support the big flask. I’ve added an aerating system into the flask as well to try and optimise the yeast growth.


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## Cloud Surfer (28/11/20)

MHB said:


> There are going to be hundreds of answers, at least half wont be the best advice you could take.
> Starters are a really complicated question, personally I'm not sure how good a job of yeast propagation a lot of home brewers do. Its too easy to end up with a lot of very unhealthy yeast (how do you know?) or an infected starter. For mine I would rather pitch the yeast I have into a suitable sized batch, crop that yeast and use it for a bigger or stronger batch... you end up with enough healthy yeast to do what you want, Know for a certainty that there will be some bugs in that yeast and that at some point it all falls down and you get an infected brew.
> 
> Have a read of Braukaiser on yeast propagation, his yeast growth experiment is worth reading to.
> Mark


Thanks Mark. Looks like I’m doing exactly what he describes in his article.


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## kadmium (29/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Thanks Mark. Looks like I’m doing exactly what he describes in his article.


No need for an aeration exercise in the starter other than stir plate.

2 days before and time to chill so if brew day is Sunday morning I make it Thursday morning gives it till Saturday morning and then a day to chill which helps drop the yeast especially if its not highly flocculant. For most beers a general rule I go by is 3L, with 500ml harvested from the starter and into a sanitised canning jar then the 2.5L into the fridge to crash.

Not sure how this is a huge risk for infection nor how top cropping is more sanitary.

You're harvesting yeast that have not undergone fermentation with hops and in a high gravity wort etc so I believe they are as healthy as you could assume.

The alternative is to pitch a packet of yeast that you have no idea on how they are stored? No thanks.

I measure the dry malt extract at 100g per L, then add water to make the volume. Eg 300g Light DME into the flask and top to 3L. Swirl to get it mixed well. Pop on the stove, add the stir bar. Put the foil over making a slightly tight wrap going down the outside of the neck. On the heat. Bring to a boil for 2 minutes. Transfer to a sink of cold water. No need for an ice bath. Sit in the sink with enough water till the flask is just about to float.

Swirl every 10m or so till its cool to the touch. Takes an hour or so. Meanwhile yeast is out of fridge. Don't smack it, no need in my view.

Put flask on stir plat and get it spun up. Once a good stir is going, add yeast. Let go for 48 hours. Gravity is always 1.037 using this method. Yeast will ferment out in 24 hours or so, the extended time in my view helps them build glycol reserves.

After 48 hours while all mixed up decant a 500ml mason jar worth. Fridge that. Let 2.5L remaining sit in fridge over night or more till required.

Remove from fridge about 1hr before needed. Decant off the liquid, and always some into a glass. Taste the non hopped "beer" for signs of infection. Be amazed at how much that little bittering addition helps.

Leave the yeast cake and about 100ml of liquid. Right before pitch swirl it all up using the stir bar to help break it all up, then grab the stir bar using a magnet. Pitch the yeast.

I am on 7th generation "Dennys favourite" for porters and stouts and still a great yeast.

I also had a 6 month old Imperial Dry Hop I spun up, tasted great no issues.


Yes, you can do slants and freeze etc but I find 3 or 4 strains that I usually brew with last 6 months or so between spins.


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## mje1980 (29/11/20)

I used to be very precise about starters. Now I do 2L in my flask ( 200g DME and yeast nutrient ) boiled and cooled. Yeast pitched ( room temp ). Then swirl ( don’t use my stir plate much now ) every few hours overnight and pitch. Unless it doesn’t look active but I’ve never had issues, even with 6 month old yeast. Keep 250ml for next time and pitch it all.

Most of my beers are 1.040 or less so if I’m doing a stronger one I’ll use my stir plate.


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## Grmblz (29/11/20)

Playing devils avocado here, why not just chuck in two packs of dried yeast? 

Imho the 11gms supplied as standard is a bit light on (it's interesting that Coopers are now selling dried yeast, but in 15gm packets, don't get excited it's all generic stuff)
With the recent advances in dried yeast production, and the ever growing variety I question the value of liquid cultures for every day use, sure they have their place but factor in the cost and time associated with them, and the argument is far less compelling now than it once was.
Find a specialist supplier with high turnover, I've had great results with Cheap Yeast Store no affiliation blah, blah, blah. He's often "sold out" (that's a good thing) and has a decent selection.

Having said that, I do maintain a frozen yeast bank, I pretty much use Kadmiums method but draw off the yeast from the 500ml into 50ml centrifuge tubes with a syringe, and store in a glycol mix. 
This is only done with the original smack pack/vial, as MHB points out there are bugs in yeast, the yeast manufacturers include a bacteria count in their data sheets, it may be a tiny amount but it's there, and they do multiply, wont argue that you can't get several generations out of a pack but the risk increases with each one, and genetic drift will ensure that the beer you made with gen1 will be different to the beer you make with gen10, it might still be great beer but the yeast will have mutated to a greater or lesser degree depending on the stresses endured by the multiple fermentations.

just my 2 bobs

fwiw if I'm sterilising an erlenmeyer with wort in it, glycol centrifuge tubes, syringes etc. I use a pressure cooker, just fill with water to about 2/3 the height of the wort and let it whistle for 10 min's, apparently there's bugs that can survive 100c, and 125c at pressure kills them.


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## Grmblz (29/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> I’m making my yeast starter setup today. Got a 5L flask and bought a stir plate from KL. Just making the stir ‘plate’ bigger to better support the big flask. I’ve added an aerating system into the flask as well to try and optimise the yeast growth.


You will probably find that 5L is too big for that stir plate, I would suggest a 3L, you need a vigorous vortex that's going almost to the bottom of the flask for effective aeration, unless you are using an air stone in which case you don't need a stir plate.
You mention an aeration system, is that an aquarium air pump with a hepa filter or pure oxygen?
I only ask because it's very difficult to over oxygenate a wort with air, but remarkably easy to do it with oxygen, and oxygen in high levels is toxic to yeast.


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## MHB (29/11/20)

Its the use of oxygen that really does bother me most.
Once the O2 in the head space is used up, it think unless you are pumping it in, its imposable to get enough into the head space of the flask without drawing in a lot of contaminated air (most bacteria are attached to small dust partials floating in the air).
Without enough O2, you wont get the increase in population we are looking for and the yeast you do get will be stressed, low in glycogen and not really in fit condition to make good beer. Yet most home brewers assume they are getting maximum populations and in the best possible physical condition.
Doubtful
Mark


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## kadmium (29/11/20)

MHB said:


> Its the use of oxygen that really does bother me most.
> Once the O2 in the head space is used up, it think unless you are pumping it in, its imposable to get enough into the head space of the flask without drawing in a lot of contaminated air (most bacteria are attached to small dust partials floating in the air).
> Without enough O2, you wont get the increase in population we are looking for and the yeast you do get will be stressed, low in glycogen and not really in fit condition to make good beer. Yet most home brewers assume they are getting maximum populations and in the best possible physical condition.
> Doubtful
> Mark


Yeah but I'm not going to pitch 2 or more packets of Liquid and Dry yeast is also $7 a packet and doesn't come in the strains I want so I'd rather do a stir plate than not.

My opinion. Unless we brew in hermetically sealed environments with spectrometers should we assume everything we do is bad?

Yeast starters are bad, water chemistry bad, pressure fermenting bad blah blah blah. On the home brew level I don't think its an issue but hey, I must have a shot palette.


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## MHB (29/11/20)

Dude don't take it personally every time I suggest there might be a other/better way do do something!
Point of fact I have never said starters, water chemistry, pressure fermenting are bad, just that they all have implications for the finished beer and it will help your brewing to understand them.
Haven't tasted your beer so I obviously cant have an informed opinion now, can I!
You are brewing for you, if you're happy with what you are making, that's all that really matters.

Personally I think its pretty cheap and easy to get maximum benefit from making a starter. In this case an extra hole in the bung, a small fish tank air pump, an air stone, a HEPA filter and some extra hose.
In return you should get a bigger (slightly) and most importantly a much healthier population of yeast.
If you are investing a lot of time and money in a beer, like a Rochefort 10, its really important to get the most out of your yeast.
Mark


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## kadmium (29/11/20)

MHB said:


> Dude don't take it personally every time I suggest there might be a other/better way do do something!
> Point of fact I have never said starters, water chemistry, pressure fermenting are bad, just that they all have implications for the finished beer and it will help your brewing to understand them.
> Haven't tasted your beer so I obviously cant have an informed opinion no can I!
> You are brewing for you, if your happy with what you are making that's all that really matters.
> ...


I promise I don't take it personally! Just having a joke at my own expense lol. I understand your point of view but sometimes it comes across that unless things are done in a perfect way, people will not achieve good beer. 

Yes, perhaps a bung with a pump is a better solution but without microscopes and other laboratory equipment we won't really know what each person achieves. 

I get you're giving your opinion and advice from a commercial / formal training aspect but I think it needs to be remembered that 10s of thousands of people make yeast starters using a stir plate, and of all the beers I have made over the years I find them far more advantageous than just pitching yeast and hoping for the best.

Personally to OP, I think if you follow the basic principals of making a starter on a stir plate, don't overfill the flask so there is decent airspace, give it a good shake to get air into it (doesn't need to be hermetically sealed medical grade air) keep the nasties out with foil over the top and pitch the large colony. Keep an eye on the beer and if it develops an off taste in the beer you make in the starter don't pitch it and go with a fresh pitch. You won't really notice and I would be truly incredulous if you were to brew two identical beers from the exact same wort one using a stir plate and one using injected filtered air and be able to tell them apart. My opinion, maybe I'm not a super taster but I'm also a firm believer that there can be a high degree of snobbery that goes along with home brewing. 

Not saying your opinion isn't valid, I'm sure scientifically it may be the better way but I don't personally feel it makes an appreciable difference on the home brew scale.


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## wide eyed and legless (29/11/20)

I have posted this article a couple of years ago, some interesting info and points of view.
The Roving Brewer episode 5.





BeerTools Articles On Brewing Beer


Resources for craft brewers and home brewers, including The Beer Recipe Calculator for beer recipe formulation, The Hop Vine home brewing discussion forum, and other beer making resources for the creative home brewer.



www.beertools.com


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## Grmblz (29/11/20)

As WEAL says, it's "points of view", my post was merely a reference for how I do it, and hopefully why.
It's not a case of "This is how you do it" just hey guys this is one way of doing it.
I think it's a German saying "ask 5 brewers the same question, and you will receive 6 different answers"


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## MHB (29/11/20)

I think variations exist in every brewing community, another one I like is -
_There are three ways to do anything. The wrong way. A good way. A better way._
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (29/11/20)

So I finished putting my starter setup together today and I made the starter for my Belgium quad brew day. From what I read here I decided to give myself 3 days to get it ready instead of 2 days.

The stir plate is working really well. I decided rather than use alfoil, to make a stopper with two holes so I could feed the air line through and then use an airlock. I know airlocks aren’t typical in starter flasks, but it seems a better solution in combination with the air pump. I’ve found though I can’t run the air pump constantly as a head of foam builds up that would probably work it’s way up to the top of the flask if I let it go.

I’ve read all the posts and links and appreciate all the info, so thanks for your input.


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## Cloud Surfer (29/11/20)

Grmblz said:


> Playing devils avocado here, why not just chuck in two packs of dried yeast?
> 
> Imho the 11gms supplied as standard is a bit light on (it's interesting that Coopers are now selling dried yeast, but in 15gm packets, don't get excited it's all generic stuff)
> With the recent advances in dried yeast production, and the ever growing variety I question the value of liquid cultures for every day use, sure they have their place but factor in the cost and time associated with them, and the argument is far less compelling now than it once was.
> ...


I’ve had good experience with dried yeast so far, and would use it for everything if I could. But with the Belgium’s I make the yeast is the star of the show. Considering all the effort I go to I think I would be kidding myself if I didn’t use the authentic liquid yeasts to make the specific beers I’m trying to copy.


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## MHB (29/11/20)

You can throttle the air flow, have used a little G clamp and a couple of 20c pieces at least once.
That was years ago, now just a couple of drops of FermCap keeps it under control. My propagators are 6L and parallel sided so the foam doesn't build up as quickly as it will in a conical.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (29/11/20)

A clamp is a good idea. I was thinking of ways to restrict the airflow, as it’s pumping too much air for the small volume of the flask.


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## Cloud Surfer (1/12/20)

Out of interest, do you guys cover your starters to keep the light out of them?

I’m going to do a dunkelweizen soon and have the Wyeast smack pack for it. At an OG of 1.055 is it worth making a small starter or will one smack pack be enough. I know the Wyeast guide says to make a starter above 1.060, but just wondering what you guys would do.


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## MHB (1/12/20)

Depends on the volume too.
20L at 1.055 probably not, 40L at same for sure.
The typical recommended pitch rate for an Ale is around 0.5-1million cells/ mL/ Point of oP, 1.055 is 13.75oP, for wheat beer its suggested pitching at the lower end of the range gives more of the typical yeast esters, which are in large part why we brew Wheat beers.
So assuming 0.5*10^6 Cells X 20,000mL X 13.75 = 137,500,000,000 or 1.375*10^11. A fresh smack pack claims to have 100 Billion cells, or 1*10^11 (that's a bit of give or take, I have seen counts 30% higher in very fresh well stored yeast and a lot less if its got a bit of age or bad handling on it).
If the wort was well aerated I would probably go straight in, if you cant get 8-10ppm of Oxygen into solution or the wort is more than 20L. Make a starter!

Light mainly reacts with hop products (isoalpha acids), if you are using unhoped starter, meh.
It always made me wonder why beers brewed in clear glass demijohns (out of direct sunlight) not a hint of light strike, bottle that beer in a clear/green bottle and with half an hours exposure to sunlight, it reeks.
Heard a few theories none that satisfy.
Wouldn't put a starter on a windowsill, wouldn't be looking for a dark room red light either, just be sensible looks like the trick
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (1/12/20)

Mark, that’s a good point about pitch rates to get the esters. I’ve got an O2 setup and seeing as it’s a 21L brew it sounds like pitching just the one smack pack is the way to go.

I did cover my starter with a towel to keep the light out. Was just curious what others did.


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## kadmium (1/12/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Mark, that’s a good point about pitch rates to get the esters. I’ve got an O2 setup and seeing as it’s a 21L brew it sounds like pitching just the one smack pack is the way to go.
> 
> I did cover my starter with a towel to keep the light out. Was just curious what others did.


I'm clearly not in the best practice camp, I just leave mine in the kitchen out of direct sunlight. I always make a starter, only because I harvest and keep that yeast for future. I use about 6 yeasts across the styles I brew and if I decide to do something unique I just pitch 2 packs or make a big starter and pitch the lot. 

Harvested yeast I keep about 6 months between spins. If its been a while I spin it up and brew a beer (who needs more excuses to brew!)

Maybe they are all frankenmutated but they still produce reliable beers that don't seem to dramatically change from batch to batch. I always taste the starter wort prior to pitching though. Any funky or off issues straight in the bin and new yeast used. Always keep US-05 for emergencies and W34-70 for lagers. 

Yeast on stock
- Dennys favourite (porters and stouts)
- Imperial Dry Hop (probably gonna ditch I prefer London Ale III)
- London Ale III
- Wyeast German Kolsch (Kolsch and Schwarzbiers)
- White Labs Czech Pilsner (bohemian)
- Giga Yeast English Ale #2 (Generic ales and English Bitters)

Not sure you ever seen a super floculant yeast on the spin but its weird!


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## Cloud Surfer (1/12/20)

kadmium I admire your process of building a bank of yeast. To be honest I don’t see myself doing that, I’m probably to lazy. I’ve got a great Wyeast supplier a short drive away so I’m happy to buy a new smack pack each brew and start fresh with a new starter if needed for the big beers.

My first starter using the 1762 Rochefort yeast is in the fridge ready to go for tomorrow. The process was fairly painless and lifted another veil of secrecy surrounding this whole brewing thing.


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## kadmium (1/12/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> kadmium I admire your process of building a bank of yeast. To be honest I don’t see myself doing that, I’m probably to lazy. I’ve got a great Wyeast supplier a short drive away so I’m happy to buy a new smack pack each brew and start fresh with a new starter if needed for the big beers.
> 
> My first starter using the 1762 Rochefort yeast is in the fridge ready to go for tomorrow. The process was fairly painless and lifted another veil of secrecy surrounding this whole brewing thing.


Yeah fair enough. Its super simple to harvest. Just over build by 500ml and put into a sanitised canning jar, leave lid loose and put in fridge till next time you need.


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## BrewLizard (2/12/20)

I'm with kadmium on this one. I don't know how you could _not_ do overbuild starters (or harvesting) when liquid yeast packets are $15 each (+ice packs) here in Aus. I do it for all dry yeasts too.


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## grandadrob (2/12/20)

Why not use all the sludge from brew 1 to make brew 2. Then use half of the sludge from brew 2 to make brew 3 etc.

Another approach - last 3 pints of the brew in the fermenter, stir well and bottle without priming sugar. You get to drink 3 pints of beer and loads of yeast sediment to make a starter with....if you do this every brew you should get 20 batches from one commercial yeast......


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## Grmblz (2/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> Why not use all the sludge from brew 1 to make brew 2. Then use half of the sludge from brew 2 to make brew 3 etc.
> 
> Another approach - last 3 pints of the brew in the fermenter, stir well and bottle without priming sugar. You get to drink 3 pints of beer and loads of yeast sediment to make a starter with....if you do this every brew you should get 20 batches from one commercial yeast......


Contamination, kveik is a different story.


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## kadmium (2/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> Why not use all the sludge from brew 1 to make brew 2. Then use half of the sludge from brew 2 to make brew 3 etc.
> 
> Another approach - last 3 pints of the brew in the fermenter, stir well and bottle without priming sugar. You get to drink 3 pints of beer and loads of yeast sediment to make a starter with....if you do this every brew you should get 20 batches from one commercial yeast......


Cause I don't brew the same beer over and over and find that harvesting from a starter is so simple its criminal so why wouldn't I?

However Dr Hans did do an experiment where he re used the same fermenter without cleaning for a year just dropped back to back. He noticed it went south after about 12 brews if I remember.


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## grandadrob (3/12/20)

Cadmium ( you misspelt your name ) that is why I inferred 5 or 6 uses before starting over. I just bottled beer this morning I used a lot of pelleted hops that stayed suspended in the clear beer so I jugged the beer from FV and passed it through a sieve and paper tissues and then filled bottles using a jug and funnel - contamination is over exaggerated..........


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## Coalminer (3/12/20)

Back with the popcorn


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## kadmium (3/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> Cadmium ( you misspelt your name ) that is why I inferred 5 or 6 uses before starting over. I just bottled beer this morning I used a lot of pelleted hops that stayed suspended in the clear beer so I jugged the beer from FV and passed it through a sieve and paper tissues and then filled bottles using a jug and funnel - contamination is over exaggerated..........


Grandma Rob, (it seems you did too) you should do what works for you and I should do what works for me. I wouldn't be worried about infection as much as passing beer through a seive and paper towel by jug and then pouring into a bottle. So much oxygenation of the beer, with the words "lots of hops" in suspension I would be worried the beer is oxidised and will be very muted.

Then again it could be delicious. Brewing can be as simple or as complicated as people want to make it and that's the beauty of the hobby. But if the OP is going to the effort of making a starter then I dont see why for almost zero effort (sanitising a mason jar and pouring into it) they wouldn't. I would argue its more complicated handling a slurry and cleaning the fermenter then pitching back into the fermenter.

I'm not saying people have to be anal, but sanitation, yeast health, avoiding oxygen, and taking care are some simple steps to make great home brew.


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## grandadrob (3/12/20)

Kadmium - thanks for that - UK resident here - I meant very fine hop pellet particles - so fine they stay in suspension - a fine sieve did not catch them so I lined it with a tissue - not a paper towel that would have taken ages - my beers used to be ( pre covid) assessed by the head brewer of my local microbrewery and I have not had any real criticism - (I did ask him to be honest and tell me if I had problems) - the hop pellets in question were Nelson Sauvin - I get poor attenuation eg refractometer 10.7 down to 6.2 being typical - I would not know what an oxidised beer tasted like - perhaps you and others on this excellent forum could advise me - I prefer not to google.....


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## Grmblz (3/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> contamination is over exaggerated..........


Till it happens, and it's not always obvious when it does, homebrew has a deserved poor reputation, whereas craft beer is much sought after.
Contamination comes in many forms and may not be immediately noticeable to the untrained palate, but it can be the difference between homebrew and craft beer, one is "drinkable" the other delicious.
If you like what you brew and how you brew it, then fine, but if you get a commercial craft ale and think cor that's nice, perhaps ask why your beer doesn't taste quite as good.


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## grandadrob (3/12/20)

My beer is good - but not as nice as the best craft beers in UK. I constantly strive to improve - getting really full in the mouth hoppiness so far eludes me - just adding tons of hops at 10, 5, 3, 1 minutes doesn't achieve it.


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## Grmblz (4/12/20)

Ahhh, THAT! can of worms, it's a new thing, are you referring to smell, taste (fresh hoppy not bitterness) or bitterness?
Remember that taste is a blunt instrument, what many perceive as taste is in fact aroma from the olfactory gland (smell)
One of my favourites here in Aus is Bentspoke's crankshaft Beer. In Cans. (note, they list the hop varieties but not the type, T45, T90, cryo etc) crack the can and prepare to be assaulted by hops, this was when they had a full opening lid can, due to moronic recycling rules here these cans were deemed not redeemable as their lid was missing so Bentspoke went to a traditional can with the stupid little opening (think coke or pepsi can) result? Almost no hop assault as your mouth is now covering the opening, meaning that all the hoppy goodness was in fact coming in through the nostrils.
The yanks have been leading the charge on this sort of thing with their IPA's, and have come up with cryo, and extracts to accomplish things that cones and pellets alone cannot. A quick look at this T-45 versus T-90 Hop Pellets…. gives a small insight into the intricacies of standard pellets, add in cryo, and extract and you do indeed have a Pandora's box.
For the big aroma/flavour hit, dry hopping is the way to go, at various stages in the fermentation, and also in the keg, BUT (there's always a fuc**ng but) open the bottle or tap, pour the beer and whoosh all that hoppy stuff, wait a couple of minutes and it's mostly gone, I have yet to find a big hoppy beer (not talking bitterness here) that keeps its allure for more than a few minutes.
Personally I think this whole huge hoppy thing is a bit of a fad and will die a natural death, a bit like "hard seltzers" just chuck a large vodka into a glass of soda water ffs (bloody millennials)
After 68yrs (56 drinking, I started early) if I had to pick one beer for the rest of my life it would be cask conditioned London Pride (the draught/bottled is rubbish, way too much co2 bite) being an ex Fullers landlord I'm probably a bit biased but it's stood the test of time a bit like Old Peculiar, I wonder how many hop bombs will still be around in 10yrs time, let alone the 60yrs that LP has been served for, Fullers and Youngs (yeh I'm a Londoner) were brewing craft ale when the great unwashed British population was drinking Grotneys, and Fosters (with a dash of lime ugh!) the yanks were swilling Budweiser! 
Just Googled AND! 
*Bud Light* is the most popular beer by FAR. It did $5.2 billion in sales last year, which is more than double the runner up, *Coors Light*.Aug 8, 2019 

Oh dear I'm on my hobby horse again, sorry Rob got a bit side tracked, chase your hop fairies but be aware they are fleeting little creatures, maybe oils/extracts/cryo (I haven't used them so can't help there) are the answer, either way good luck with your quest, the beauty of this hobby/obsession is we are free to do as we please, and hopefully I've given you something to consider re: cryo/extracts, conventional wisdom btw is 50/50 cryo/T-pellets.

I'll stand by my statement that sanitation is key, followed by temp control, and then oxygen exposure, and I'm happy to agree to disagree.  

fwiw, drain a wooden barrel (36 gal) of LP and in the bottom you'll find about two double handfuls of hop cones (food for thought)


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## kadmium (4/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> Kadmium - thanks for that - UK resident here - I meant very fine hop pellet particles - so fine they stay in suspension - a fine sieve did not catch them so I lined it with a tissue - not a paper towel that would have taken ages - my beers used to be ( pre covid) assessed by the head brewer of my local microbrewery and I have not had any real criticism - (I did ask him to be honest and tell me if I had problems) - the hop pellets in question were Nelson Sauvin - I get poor attenuation eg refractometer 10.7 down to 6.2 being typical - I would not know what an oxidised beer tasted like - perhaps you and others on this excellent forum could advise me - I prefer not to google.....


Haha all good mate. Just sounded like a real process. I'm a simple man, prefer to fall into the area between best practice but not complicated. I like to stream line, maybe take a few shortcuts but if its necessary then I do it if that makes sense. 

The issue with oxygenated beer post fermentation is its a hard one. It can lend a sherry or wet cardboard vibe when really bad. The problem with highly hopped beers is that they will only need a tiny little exposure and the damage is done. 

Exposure to highly hopped beers usually leads to a browning in colour followed by muted hop character. The aroma falls off, flavour falls off and even bitterness is affected. You end up with a "meh" beer that doesn't have all the qualities you are trying to get by adding the hops. Thats my understanding and experience. I had a Galaxy SMaSH beer that I bottled. Was great just as it carbonated then fell of very rapidly. Ended up being that coppery, megaswill but nicer. That was a while back and I have since gone kegs and pressure transfers. Its improved all my beers significantly.


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## Klosey (4/12/20)

Grmblz said:


> Ahhh, THAT! can of worms, it's a new thing, are you referring to smell, taste (fresh hoppy not bitterness) or bitterness?
> Remember that taste is a blunt instrument, what many perceive as taste is in fact aroma from the olfactory gland (smell)
> One of my favourites here in Aus is Bentspoke's crankshaft Beer. In Cans. (note, they list the hop varieties but not the type, T45, T90, cryo etc) crack the can and prepare to be assaulted by hops, this was when they had a full opening lid can, due to moronic recycling rules here these cans were deemed not redeemable as their lid was missing so Bentspoke went to a traditional can with the stupid little opening (think coke or pepsi can) result? Almost no hop assault as your mouth is now covering the opening, meaning that all the hoppy goodness was in fact coming in through the nostrils.
> The yanks have been leading the charge on this sort of thing with their IPA's, and have come up with cryo, and extracts to accomplish things that cones and pellets alone cannot. A quick look at this T-45 versus T-90 Hop Pellets…. gives a small insight into the intricacies of standard pellets, add in cryo, and extract and you do indeed have a Pandora's box.
> ...


When I lived in London. Fullers ESB was one of my favourites. Is it still around these days? I lived there back in 1978.


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## Grmblz (4/12/20)

^ I imagine it would have to be, one of the difficulties of trying to produce a London Pride clone is that Fullers don't actually make a London Pride wort, they parti-gyle a mash then make ESB and London Pride from the running's, so logic would dictate that if their flagship ale (LP) is available then so too is ESB.
I know you can get bottles of it, we occasionally see it in specialty beer shops here in Aus, but as I mentioned before the bottled/keg versions are nothing like the cask conditioned ones, and not nearly as good imho.


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## Paleman (5/12/20)

Sorry if off topic. Ive just embarked on my first starter, using a stir plate. 500 mls of wort to 1040 og. Using one packet of Lallemund West Coast dry yeast. Sitting in my fermenter fridge at 24C. To be pitched two days later.

Its for an All Grain American Ale, which will start at around 1050 i hope. Is this all ok for the experienced around here? I was very anal in being sanitary.


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## grandadrob (5/12/20)

I make a starter with safale 04 dry yeast - it only takes 2 hours (no stirring or agitating) before pitching. I add a tiny amount of vitamin C and yeast nutrient to the starter.


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## Paleman (5/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> I make a starter with safale 04 dry yeast - it only takes 2 hours (no stirring or agitating) before pitching. I add a tiny amount of vitamin C and yeast nutrient to the starter.


Vitamin C. Thats new on me. Why Vitamin C?

Do you make a malt starter or rehydrate in water?


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

In water. All yeasts - including sourdough - like slightly acid conditions and vit C is acidic and anti-oxidant - and your beer won't catch a cold...........


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

Forgot to say - use bottled water for the starter - chlorine and chloramine in tap water inhibit yeast growth.


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## MHB (6/12/20)

Agree on getting rid of any Chlorine and adding a bit of nutrient.
Curious, couple of questions
What form is your vitamin C in?
Is this your own idea or do you have some reference?
Mark


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## Paleman (6/12/20)

MHB said:


> Agree on getting rid of any Chlorine and adding a bit of nutrient.
> Curious, couple of questions
> What form is your vitamin C in?
> Is this your own idea or do you have some reference?
> Mark


Mark could you peruse my post above and pick any dents? I'm willing to learn to make the best beer i possibly can.


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## Paleman (6/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> In water. All yeasts - including sourdough - like slightly acid conditions and vit C is acidic and anti-oxidant - and your beer won't catch a cold...........


I like it, no harm in learning new methods.


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

I buy pure vitamin C powder in 1 kg packs. If I get any hint of cold like symptoms I take 10 gm (10,000 mg) daily. Always have done. Can't prove its efficacy without having a spare me not taking vitamin C. I am 75 years old but not a health fanatic. This morning's pulse oximeter readings were 97 and 60......


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## Paleman (6/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> I buy pure vitamin C powder in 1 kg packs. If I get any hint of cold like symptoms I take 10 gm (10,000 mg) daily. Always have done. Can't prove its efficacy without having a spare me not taking vitamin C. I am 75 years old but not a health fanatic. This morning's pulse oximeter readings were 97 and 60......


Youre 75 so doing something right.


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## Paleman (6/12/20)

I believe love of music keeps me sane.


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

Youre 75 so doing something right 

I drink too much beer (70 units a week) am overweight (5 foot 11 95 kilos ) grow my own tomatoes peppers chillis carrots onions potatoes and binge on salted peanuts................. 50 minute walk every morning....


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## MHB (6/12/20)

Ok so adding Vitamin C is your own idea, not one I would be recommending without a lot better understanding of exactly what you are up to.
Two most common forms of Vitamin C are Ascorbic Acid and Sodium Ascorbate, still curious which you are using, it should say on the label.
These days there is a lot of debate around whether its even necessary to rehydrate (see the E2U range from Fermentis), I would be seriously careful moving the pH of the rehydrating medium too far from neutral without knowing exactly what you are doing. Look up Hydrogen Pump.

Paleman
Personally I don't think there is a "RIGHT!" answer. The drying process chosen by the manufacture, the exact strain of yeast, what's in the media... Not being precious about it, but I think the best advice is to do exactly what the manufacturer says. If you think about it they have a vested interest in you making good beer, if you are happy with the results you will buy their products again, if you aren't odds on you will shop with a competitor.
They want your business so they will usually give good effective advice.
Mark


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## Grmblz (6/12/20)

Paleman said:


> Sorry if off topic. Ive just embarked on my first starter, using a stir plate. 500 mls of wort to 1040 og. Using one packet of Lallemund West Coast dry yeast. Sitting in my fermenter fridge at 24C. To be pitched two days later.
> Its for an All Grain American Ale, which will start at around 1050 i hope. Is this all ok for the experienced around here? I was very anal in being sanitary.


I think grandadrob might be confusing re-hydration and making a starter. you can't make a starter in 2 hrs, and fwiw 2hrs is way too long for rehydration.
Take a look at: https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...ctices-RehydrationProtocol-A4-_printbleed.pdf I assume being the manufacturers that they have some idea on how to treat their yeast, 
and this from Fermentis (Safale): 
TODAY A STUDY DEMONSTRATES THAT THE USE OF ACTIVE DRY YEASTS (ADY) is very easy and does not necessarily include a rehydration step. To the contrary, the ADY can advantageously be immediately put in contact with the wort into the fermentation vessel (direct pitch). Several rehydration and direct pitch conditions do not show any significant differences in terms of viability and vitality of the ADY. This concept is protected under the E2UTM umbrella.
AFTER REHYDRATION, BACTERIAL CONTAMINATION CAN DEVELOP IN THE SLURRY. For that reason, we recommend a rehydration in sterile hopped wort compared to sterile unhopped wort or sterile water. The iso-alpha acids (ideally above 5ppm, the equivalent of 5 IBU) present in the media will protect it from Gram + bacterial development and will not affect the rehydration process of the ADY. 

For the whole story: https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_BAT_BD.pdf

You rehydrate if it's "best practice" this is determined by the manufacturer, you make a starter to increase yeast numbers, either because you have a high gravity wort (in your case 1050, it's marginal) or because you have low numbers (dregs from a bottle, or a suspect packet, old/badly stored) a much simpler solution for high gravity is just pitch two packets, rehydrated or not according to the manufacturer.
Sorry for the war and peace but yeast production methods (indeed the yeasts themselves) have undergone massive changes in the last few years, and what was once deemed essential might now be detrimental.


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

I feel I am wandering into outlaw country. I keep it simple. By "re-hydrating" I prove the yeast is "alive" [I use the bulk pack of SO4, kept in fridge] . Because 40 years ago I made up a kit, sprinkled on the dried yeast sachet and nothing happened. GOOD MORNING AUSTRALASIA !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BrewLizard (6/12/20)

You crack me up, Grandma Rob. That stream of consciousness flowing out of an atrophied, floating cerebrum on 70 standards of ethanol a week certainly leads to some hilarious posts. Don't ever change.


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## MHB (6/12/20)

40 years ago, proving yeast was a damn good idea! Even 20 years ago, dry yeast was very much less reliable than it is today.
Speaking of following manufacturer's advice, read on your 500g block what Fermentis have to say about how it should be stored after opening.
Mark


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

mY yeast is in original packaging and after taking out 15 gm for a 22 litre brew ( money no objective) I squeeze out the air, fold the pack down and selotape it up then back in the fridge. Brewlizard - I also make my own sourdough bread, xmas puddings, marmalade and damson jam. The point I am subtly making - maybe too subtle for you lot, is that it is very hard to spoil a brew. 22:27 here so goodnight one and all...


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## GregTheBrewer (6/12/20)

Guys, why are you making starters with dry yeast? It's not necessary. Check out the manufacturer's websites. The whole purpose of making a starter is to increase the cell count so your pitch rate is correct depending on the OG and style of beer you are brewing. Liquid yeast cell counts progressively decrease over time, so you usually need to make a starter (size depending...calcs such as Brewer's Friend or Mr. Malty are great) to account for this. But dry yeast doesn't need a starter. There are usually plenty of cells...all you need to do is rehydrate it, and even then many manufacturers still say you can pitch it directly into your wort. I personally always make a starter when I am using liquid yeasts, and I rehydrate before pitching when I am using dry yeast. Always end up with quick starting and vigourous fermentation 'cos the yeast is healthy. At least, that's my two bob's worth!


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## BrewLizard (6/12/20)

As said ad-infinitum by those making starters with dry yeast for the past 20 years of homebrew-related talk on the internet, the purpose is the same: to build higher cell counts.

This is either to enable a single dry packet to do a high-gravity brew (rather than 2+) or to overbuild and keep leftover yeast.

Starters aren’t necessary with liquid yeast either. Just use more money instead.


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## grandadrob (6/12/20)

Guys, why are you making starters with dry yeast? 
To ensure that the yeast is viable before adding it - I had a dead sachet once......


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## MHB (7/12/20)

Lets pin down some basic terms, helps if everyone is on the same page.

Proofing - Putting yeast in tepid water for long enough for it to show signs of activity "proving" that the yeast is alive. Probably not really necessary these days as the yeast is likely to be better condition before its chucked into water at a usually unmeasured temperature. Which is odds on to be doing more harm than good.

Rehydrating - Putting yeast into water (ideally with some minerals) at the optimum temperature (usually in the low 30's C - very strain dependent and specific) and allowing the yeast to fully hydrate so it is ready to start fermenting when its added to the wort. During WW2 a new way to dry yeast was developed, what was called Active Dry Yeast, it was much more stable than older dry yeasts but not infallible. Rehydrating both proofs the yeast and prepares it for use. The most recent development is a form of "Instant" yeast it is ready to be added directly to the wort, this is the type of yeast Lesaffre refers to under its E2U banner. Most dry brewing yeast is now this type of yeast.
You can rehydrate it but unless care is taken again its easy to do more harm than good. Slight variations from a fairly narrow temperature, mineral and pH range can kill off a fair fraction of the yeast, especially Lager yeast.
If you want to rehydrate do it properly, follow the makers instructions precisely. It is generally recommended that yeast not be hydrated and not pitched into the wort for more than half an hour, sitting around too long and it will be trying to reproduce without the nutrients in the wort being available the yeast will start using up its internal reserves and wont be as healthy when you do get around to pitching.

Starter - Rehydrating yeast in a nutrient media (usually wort) and with available oxygen will help the yeast reproduce increasing the population. If all the required nutrients most of the yeast will get on with making yeast, after a lag phase where the yeast attemperates to its new environment (around 1-3 hours or so) and given all the required nutrients, in theory yeast can reproduce every 20 minutes. In the real world its closer to 2 hours per generation. Until the yeast runs out of any of its many required nutrients (in a brew its usually Oxygen) or until it reaches a certain population limit usually in the 200-300million cells / mL range.
It would be a big mistake to think you are going to get "optimum" rates of population growth at home. Braukaiser gives a very practical way to get a reasonable idea of how much yeast you end up with.
A starter is usually cooled allowing the yeast to settle, the liquor above the yeast being discarded, the new larger population being used to inoculate the wort.

Active Starter - A portion of the wort to be fermenter (or fair approximation) is inoculated, kept well aerated and at a time when the yeast is still actively reproducing at the same temperature that the main wort is to be fermented, introduced to rest of the wort.
The amount of extra yeast is less than can be made in a starter, but the yeast tends to hit the ground running and in very good condition. Works best for lagers being fermented reasonably cool.
Can be a follow on from making a starter (settle the yeast, decant liquor, add fresh wort, aerate use when fermenting well) or when the initial population isn't too small but more is required. It will speed up the ferment.

Having had a dead yeast packet (once) 20 years ago I wouldn't regard as a good enough reason to muck around with yeast. I would normally say adding Ascorbic Acid to a starter would be a pretty weird notion, mind you it might be all that's saving you from serial infections, keeping a 500g brick of yeast in the fridge is pretty hairy.
The odds of infection approach a certainty. Adding acid to a starter is far from best practice but it might be suppressing some of the inevitable bugs. Not something I would recommend.
Mark


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## grandadrob (7/12/20)

Mark great post. The wort is acidic and adding dry yeast to it is fine. Therefore adding yeast to an acidic nutrient rich 200 ml bottled water starter in a clingfilmed 500 ml jar is fine, surely. So far I have not mentioned that I get a 1 to 2 inch head on the starter in 60 to 90 minutes, then I pitch. I have been doing this for more than 10 years. The 500 gm pack of normal dry yeast spherules is a new technique for me, I am 7 months into this technique and still have 300 gm in the pack, It is only open for 10 to 15 seconds, I squeeze the air out, fold it down, selotape it and straight back into the fridge.

7:40 am here, freezing fog, minus 4.2 deg C and my water is heating up. Today it is a medium to dark bitter loaded with cascade hops. And now for breakfast.....


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## BrewLizard (7/12/20)

I don't see the appeal of 500 g yeast packets for the home gamer. As per Fermentis' own advice states, you get a _week_ after opening if you *flush* the air out.

Of course, it will probably continue to brew good beer at near full strength for months to come, but how many? Viability will drop off to the point of needing more and more yeast. Eventually, you'll need to use twice as much, and given the 500 g packets are about half the price per gram, you're _behind_ as soon as this starts happening.

The problem is you have no way of knowing how much extra you need to compensate.

And this all assumes you're properly flushing the yeast of air, not just sellotaping it.

It also assumes your fingers or spoon or the air you expose it to in opening the packet ~50 times doesn't introduce significant humid air or bacteria at any point.

Do it all perfectly and you save 50% on yeast costs?

Versus...harvesting yeast (saves 50% the first time, then 33%, then 25% and eventually approaches free), or overbuilding starters, which costs the same + $1 of DME per brew.


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## grandadrob (7/12/20)

I observe my starter, and I observe the fermentation progress. So far no observable difference / problems. I am pitching 15 gm yeast to 22 litres of wort. So I am not saving money but slight overpitching works for my brews normally 3.6% to 4.1 %. At kitchen temperature in a skinflints house at this time of year, they take 5 to 6 days to ferment out, when I bottle in a range of sizes from 250 ml to 2 litres. It is minus 2 C in my garage where todays mash is about 35 minutes in.......


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## MHB (7/12/20)

What makes you think yeast likes an acid environment.
Yes fermentation will acidify the brew from 5.1-2pH at the end of the boil down to around 4.1*4.4pH by the end of fermentation.
Yeast also makes Alcohol and CO2, enough of either of these will stop the ferment, in fact they will poison the yeast.
Sorry I don't agree that acidifying the starter is a good idea. We are lucky yeast is such a tolerant organism but that's not an excuse to put it under un-necessary pressure, especially just because it feels like a good idea.
Mark


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## grandadrob (8/12/20)

I am not a scientist. I read somewhere that yeasts like slightly acid conditions. And an expert on sourdough said on youtube that he gets better starters when he adds a little vitamin C to his organic flour bottled water "starter starter".......think about it.


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## grandadrob (8/12/20)

*Preparing Dry Yeast (copied from John Palmer How to Brew)*

Dry yeast should be re-hydrated in water before pitching. Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105°F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage.



If it's not showing signs of life (churning, foaming) after a half hour, your yeast may be too old or dead. Unfortunately, this can be a common problem with dry yeast packets, especially if they are the non-name brand packets taped to the top of malt extract beer kits. Using name brand brewers yeasts like those mentioned previously usually prevents this problem. Have a third packet available as back-up.



*Re-hydrating Dry Yeast*
1. Put 1 cup of warm (95-105F, 35-40C) boiled water into a sanitized jar and stir in the yeast. Cover with Saran Wrap and wait 15 minutes.
2. "Proof" the yeast by adding one teaspoon of extract or sugar that has been boiled in a small amount of water. Allow the sugar solution to cool before adding it to the jar.
3. Cover and place in a warm area out of direct sunlight.
4. After 30 minutes or so the yeast should be visibly churning and/or foaming, and is ready to pitch.

Note: Lallemand/Danstar does not recommend proofing after rehydration of their yeast because they have optimized their yeast's nutrional reserves for quick starting in the main wort. Proofing expends some of those reserves.



I add brewing sugar with my vitamin C and nutrient to bottles water and add the dried yeast. Today’s “starter” took 2 hours to develop a one inch head.



The vitamin C may not help, but it surely can do no harm.


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## kadmium (8/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> *Preparing Dry Yeast (copied from John Palmer How to Brew)*
> 
> Dry yeast should be re-hydrated in water before pitching. Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105°F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage.
> 
> ...


Vitamin C is an antioxidant so it will be scavenging up free oxygen in the water which is counter productive to yeast growth. 

I believe you will also find the vitamin C used in baking is because it breaks down the glucan in the flour to elasticise it more. I once saw a bloke add a little diesel to his engine oil when flushing, I wonder if that would help me flush my kegs better. Surely if it worked for that, logic states it must be good for flushing things out. 

If you decide to go against what the yeast manufacturers state to do, that's up to you. But even JP states that Llalemand and Fermentis do not recommend hydrating yeast. 

The only time I rehydrate yeast is when making mead, and that's using something like D47 wine yeast and I use Fermaid Protect hydrating powders and then do TOSNA nutrient additions. 

If you want to make fluffier bread add Vitamin C, if you want to make stressed, unhappy and oxygen deprived yeast add vitamin c.


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## Grmblz (8/12/20)

@grandadrob OK, so you have a book, written by:
John J. Palmer is the author of the self-published book, How to Brew and an active member of the homebrewing community. Palmer began writing How to Brew in 1995. The website The Real Beer Page hosted the first edition of the book at howtobrew.com. Palmer self-published a print edition of How to Brew in 2000.

So, 25yrs ago an enthusiastic homebrewer published his own book (it has recently been revised and for what it is, it's a great general reference for people just starting the hobby)
He recommends rehydrating yeast in a cup of water, the people that make the stuff say 10 times its weight, for an 11.5gm packet that's 115ml, under half a cup.

On the other hand you have this from the manufacturers, specialising in just one aspect/ingredient of brewing, and published within the last two years

From Lallemand:
YEAST REHYDRATION PROCESS Step by Step - Sanitize the upper part of the pack (e.g. ethanol 70%) and the scissors before opening. - Sprinkle the yeast on the surface of 10 times its weight in clean, sterilized water at 30-35°C (86- 95F). - Leave it undisturbed for 15 minutes, stir gently to suspend yeast completely. - Leave it for 5 more minutes at 30-35°C (86- 95F). - Attemperate in steps at 5-minute intervals of 10°C to the temperature of the wort by mixing aliquots of wort in order to adjust the temperature of the hydrated yeast, with no delay. Please Do Not - Do not use distilled or reverse osmosis water, as it will result in loss of viability. - Do not stir right after sprinkling, as it may break the yeast cell membrane. - Do not allow attemperation to be carried out by natural heat loss. This will take too long and could result in loss of viability or vitality

From Lessafre (Fermentis):
Direct pitch If the brewery is not equipped with a system designed for the rehydration step, *we highly recommend a direct pitch*. To do so we recommend using the necessary quantity in weight of ADY and to put it into the fermentation vessel during the first part of the wort cooling step. The temperature of cooling will be the same as the temperature used to start fermentation. There is no need for aeration during this process.

IF YOU ARE USED TO REHYDRATE DRY YEAST, NO WORRY you still can! Just follow our recommendation process. - 
Rehydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream by sprinkling it on 10 times its own weight of sterile water or hopped wort. - The temperature of the hydration media is between 10 and 28°C (50-82,4°F); and should ideally be close to fermentation temperature. - Leave to rest; and optionally agitate gently (no violent agitation) for about 15 minutes. - Finally, pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
AFTER REHYDRATION, BACTERIAL CONTAMINATION CAN DEVELOP IN THE SLURRY. For that reason, we recommend a rehydration in sterile hopped wort compared to sterile unhopped wort or sterile water. The iso-alpha acids (ideally above 5ppm, the equivalent of 5 IBU) present in the media will protect it from Gram + bacterial development and will not affect the rehydration process of the ADY.

Look at my post in this thread #54 for links to the above.

You will note they are very specific about what to do, and even go to the trouble to explain why, they do NOT use the same process, their recommended temp's are different, as is their production method.

What is being discussed here is merely "best practice" for what we have currently available to make craft brews, there are many different ways to end up with an alcoholic beverage, and you are free to use whatever method you choose, but this forum is about advancing the craft, and improving brewers knowledge, no one knows everything, and we all need advice at times, you can either take that advice offered, or ignore it, your choice.


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## grandadrob (8/12/20)

Kadmium - I agree to disagree with you - lol - the manufacturer is not always 100 % truthful - I am just coming from years of doing something that works for me - tell you what - fly over here when it is safe to do so and I let you taste my beer - eg tonights beer was brewed just 3 weeks ago and it is nectar - is that a word u understand - if not it it is extremely nice old chap. Or possibly chappess. We have to be poltically correct, non sexist etc..................


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## BrewLizard (8/12/20)

Your beer tasting good is not even close to counting as evidence of vitamin C helping your starter.


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## kadmium (8/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> Kadmium - I agree to disagree with you - lol - the manufacturer is not always 100 % truthful - I am just coming from years of doing something that works for me - tell you what - fly over here when it is safe to do so and I let you taste my beer - eg tonights beer was brewed just 3 weeks ago and it is nectar - is that a word u understand - if not it it is extremely nice old chap. Or possibly chappess. We have to be poltically correct, non sexist etc..................


What makes you think I have such a tenuous grasp on the English lexicon as to be unable to discern the use of the word nectar in relation to the description of a beer. Did you assume I would think you had literally produced a transmutation of wort into the sugary secretion of a flower?

Alas, fear not for I had the insight to discern the true context of the word nectar as it was juxtaposed with other positively descriptive words, to which I assumed you were referring to the colloquial "nectar of the gods"

Do you understand the above? TLDR stop assuming that I can't spell nor understand your below average vocabulary. I have seen the extent of your mental flexibility and it leaves one wanting.


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## Coalminer (8/12/20)

Grmblz said:


> @grandadrob OK, so you have a book, written by:
> John J. Palmer is the author of the self-published book, How to Brew and an active member of the homebrewing community. Palmer began writing How to Brew in 1995. The website The Real Beer Page hosted the first edition of the book at howtobrew.com. Palmer self-published a print edition of How to Brew in 2000.
> 
> So, 25yrs ago an enthusiastic homebrewer published his own book (it has recently been revised and for what it is, it's a great general reference for people just starting the hobby)
> ...



How To Brew
Latest Revised edition (in metric)

Publication date 01 Jun 2017


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## kadmium (8/12/20)

Coalminer said:


> How To Brew
> Latest Revised edition (in metric)
> 
> Publication date 01 Jun 2017


To be fair to Grmblz, it's only in the last few years Llalemand and Fermentis recommended not oxygenating wort with dry pitch. Things change, and JP book is a good basic read. 

I see no real harm in hydrating, but putting in crushed up centrum pills ain't gonna do good, and will probably do harm. As stated, vitamin c in baking helps elasticity. Making the leap from "sourdough uses yeast and vitamin C therefore it must be good for beer" is just that. A leap.


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## Coalminer (8/12/20)

kadmium said:


> To be fair to Grmblz, it's only in the last few years Llalemand and Fermentis recommended not oxygenating wort with dry pitch. Things change, and JP book is a good basic read.
> 
> I see no real harm in hydrating, but putting in crushed up centrum pills ain't gonna do good, and will probably do harm. As stated, vitamin c in baking helps elasticity. Making the leap from "sourdough uses yeast and vitamin C therefore it must be good for beer" is just that. A leap.


Was not advocating Vitamin C, Asprin or any other additive
I rehydrate my dry yeast as a matter of course (when I rarely have occasion to use it) as per manufacturers instructions, not Palmer's.
Just making an observation that the book has had 4 revisions since the online basic version was available
Saying that, the printed book is a far better read than the free version


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## Nullnvoid (8/12/20)

Coalminer said:


> Was not advocating Vitamin C, Asprin or any other additive
> I rehydrate my dry yeast as a matter of course (when I rarely have occasion to use it) as per manufacturers instructions, not Palmer's.
> Just making an observation that the book has had 4 revisions since the online basic version was available
> Saying that, the printed book is a far better read than the free version


I think he was referring to Grandpa about the vitamin c.

He was referring to you in regards to the Palmer book.


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## Grmblz (8/12/20)

kadmium said:


> Vitamin C is an antioxidant so it will be scavenging up free oxygen in the water which is counter productive to yeast growth.
> 
> I believe you will also find the vitamin C used in baking is because it breaks down the glucan in the flour to elasticise it more. I once saw a bloke add a little diesel to his engine oil when flushing, I wonder if that would help me flush my kegs better. Surely if it worked for that, logic states it must be good for flushing things out.
> 
> ...


On citric acid, 
Lallemand: "In most cases,dry-pitched fermentations proceed normally without any problems. However, this option is not recommended in high gravity worts (above 16ºP or SG 1.065) or in soured worts with low pH."
Citric is going to lower the pH so rehydrating as opposed to direct pitch is deemed necessary, although how rehydrating in an acid environment which is clearly not beneficial to dried yeast is beyond me.

Of greater interest is:
AFTER REHYDRATION, BACTERIAL CONTAMINATION CAN DEVELOP IN THE SLURRY. For that reason, we recommend a rehydration in sterile hopped wort compared to sterile unhopped wort or sterile water. The iso-alpha acids (ideally above 5ppm, the equivalent of 5 IBU) present in the media will protect it from Gram + bacterial development and will not affect the rehydration process of the ADY 

I've been aware of bacterial presence in dried yeast, hence the need for speed when rehydrating it, ang getting it into the wort post haste, but it's never occurred to me to use a "hopped" wort for rehydration (I've just used boiled, cooled tap water) and the same goes for my starters, boil 100gms dme in 1L of water, cool and pitch, in fact somewhere in the back of my head is the thought that hops actually aren't beneficial to yeast, no idea where I got that thought from, perhaps it was an assumption that because hops are anti bacterial they also have a negative effect on yeast, dunno. 
I only rehydrate these days if it's specifically required, but I do make starters when using my yeast bank, and I think I'll change my process to include hops in the starter wort.


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## Grmblz (8/12/20)

Coalminer said:


> Just making an observation that the book has had 4 revisions since the online basic version was available
> Saying that, the printed book is a far better read than the free version


I know, and I wonder which version grandadrob has been referencing? "rehydrate in a cup of water?"
Your assumption that he has the latest 2017 version is unlikely to be correct given how long he has been brewing for, and who buys a book they already have just because it now has metric conversions, and some updates, especially in the UK where many still operate in Imperial, meh! (especially old farts like rob and myself) 
"I need 2.4 mtrs of 4 x 2" gets some very strange looks at my local hardware store.


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## Coalminer (8/12/20)

Grmblz said:


> I know, and I wonder which version grandadrob has been referencing? "rehydrate in a cup of water?"
> Your assumption that he has the latest 2017 version is unlikely to be correct given how long he has been brewing for, and who buys a book they already have just because it now has metric conversions, and some updates, especially in the UK where many still operate in Imperial, meh! (especially old farts like rob and myself)
> "I need 2.4 mtrs of 4 x 2" gets some very strange looks at my local hardware store.


I did not assume he had the latest version book at all, or any version. I really suspect is probably reading the online version.


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## MHB (8/12/20)

I just gave up on about the 7th mention of sourdough, this is a beer forum, we are talking about brewing. Much as I like good sourdough.

Just one point, not Hops, but Iso-Alpha Acids may be beneficial. From memory most yeasts aren't Gram+, well except the one that makes girls itchy.
Mark


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## grandadrob (8/12/20)

Coalmi ner - correct
Kadmium - trying (and failing ?) to do a joke / pun on amber nectar.

Really think vit c part of this thread has been debated to death. for my next brew (next monday) I shall make 2 identical starters and add vit C to one of them, then observe / photograph progress....


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## Grmblz (8/12/20)

grandadrob said:


> Coalmi ner - correct
> Kadmium - trying (and failing ?) to do a joke / pun on amber nectar.
> 
> Really think vit c part of this thread has been debated to death. for my next brew (next monday) I shall make 2 identical starters and add vit C to one of them, then observe / photograph progress....


ROB! as they say here in Aus, "fer fuc*s sake mate, give it a rest" If you really think you know better than the people that make this sh*t then "good on ya" but stop clogging up the forum with your outdated sour dough testing, yeast proofing crap, READ! what's been posted ffs. 
As an old Londoner, Fullers, Smith and Turner cellar man/relief manager, and Whitbreads manager/Landlord, I'll say "stop takin the piss pal!"
Your posts are now just a wind up, any more and I would hope those in the know will lock the thread.


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## grandadrob (8/12/20)

not trying to wind up or extract the urine so goodnight all...


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## Grok (9/12/20)

Grmblz said:


> For that reason, we recommend a rehydration in sterile hopped wort compared to sterile unhopped wort or sterile water. The iso-alpha acids (ideally above 5ppm, the equivalent of 5 IBU) present in the media will protect it from Gram + bacterial development and will not affect the rehydration process of the ADY.


I have been using trub remains for next brew starters for ages, works well. Instead of tipping all the left over trub down the drain, put some in a sterile bottle or jar, gunk and all, then put it in the fridge and forget about it till next brew. The trub settles down and you get about 3/4 bottle/jar of good clear sterile hopped wort.


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