# Corny Instead Of A No-chill Cube.....



## pokolbinguy (22/12/08)

Ok so was planning to do my 1st AG today but after having to take my motorbike to the mechanics and dog to the vet the day was over before I knew it...so fingers crossed I will get to do it before the year is out....have to work every day between now and new years day except xmas day....

Anyway the recent thread by Jakechan has led me think about the idea of using a 19ltr corny to store wort after fermentation (no-chill)......instead of using a cube.....would this be a feasible option????

If you were to do as Jakechan (here) did and fill the keg and then purge with CO2 this should keep infection at bay nicely??? Then place in fridge to cool down for ferment....

Anyway what do others think??

At the moment I have a bundle of empty cornies and using them would be great instead of having to source cubes.

Pok


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## recharge (23/12/08)

I would think you would either be sucking air in into the keg as it cools down or possibly collapsing keg if it manages to seal.
Maybe

Rich


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## Thirsty Boy (23/12/08)

pokolbinguy said:


> Ok so was planning to do my 1st AG today but after having to take my motorbike to the mechanics and dog to the vet the day was over before I knew it...so fingers crossed I will get to do it before the year is out....have to work every day between now and new years day except xmas day....
> 
> Anyway the recent thread by Jakechan has led me think about the idea of using a 19ltr corny to store wort after fermentation (no-chill)......instead of using a cube.....would this be a feasible option????
> 
> ...



Just use the cubes dammit - there are lots of brewers here who keg their beer, if NCing in a corny was a great option, don't you think you would have read about it more frequently?? If you don't want to spend the $15 bucks on a willow cube from Kmart/woolies/bunnings/mitre10/camping stores... etc etc etc or you don't want to waste time looking around for one that you could score free - then just NC in the kettle. I dont think its great idea, but people on AHB regularly do it with success.

Sure you can do it with the corny... but why?? why not just do as the brewers who have been doing it for ages do it?

And don't stick it in the fridge -- you will achieve absolutely nothing, not one single thing, by putting it in there. Your cube (or perhaps corny) will still cool down far to slowly for you the get the benefits of rapid chilling and it will work the crap out of your fridge plus you will loose some of the pasturisation benefit of the long heat exposure.

If you want to branch out into unknown territory, fine, use the corny. But if it all goes wrong, you will know why. If you want to be sure that the hours of work you put into your first AG have the best chance of success.... just do it the way everyone else does.

Sorry to sound cross about it... but the answers you are looking for are all in front of your face, you just keep looking around them for different answers.

TB


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## FreemanDC (23/12/08)

Snap.!


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## Thirsty Boy (23/12/08)

yeah - bit more grumpy response than the perfectly reasonable question deserved... sorry about that.


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## BrissyBrew (23/12/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just use the cubes dammit - there are lots of brewers here who keg their beer, if NCing in a corny was a great option, don't you think you would have read about it more frequently?? If you don't want to spend the $15 bucks on a willow cube from Kmart/woolies/bunnings/mitre10/camping stores... etc etc etc or you don't want to waste time looking around for one that you could score free - then just NC in the kettle. I dont think its great idea, but people on AHB regularly do it with success.
> 
> Sure you can do it with the corny... but why?? why not just do as the brewers who have been doing it for ages do it?
> 
> ...


Until the keg gets to around 30 deg C I see no reason for putting it in the fridge, as rightly pointed oout. But once down around 35 to 30 I think the fridge will lower temps to pitching range, be it lager or ale. As for the keg, the 4% loss in volume will cause air to be drawn in, so you will need to allow for this somehow, unless you have a sanitary air filter (craftbrewer still sells them I think) and connect this up to gas port (dont over fill you keg) you will be sucking "dirty" air into the keg as it cools.


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## mikelinz (23/12/08)

Just a few thoughts.

If all brewers just did what every other brewer has already done there woulddn't be biab or cubeing.

How much pressure can a Corney take before collapsing inwards - surely more than that caused by the wort cooling

Now if one could find/machine something to replace both the gas and beer posts then you eliminate air being suckked in. However i thing the lid seals by pressure so would likely leak too with the negative pressure of the cooling wort


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## Jakechan (23/12/08)

As Pok pointed out, I put my first AG yesterday into a corny. And guess what, it didnt suck the sides in, it didnt ruin the keg, and as a matter of fact once it had got down to 30 there was still positive pressure in the keg. I find it strange that everyone is so paranoid about using the keg for nochilling. I have 2 cubes but will never use them now as long as I have an empty keg for the job.

The keg takes a maximum of 100psi. I pressurised mine up to about 25 psi and there was no problem. Really, just how much atmosphere do the detractors think a cooling wort is going to suck in? Also, throughout the cooling period (as I was floating around the pool with the keg ) I was pulling the poppit valve every 5 or 10 minutes to ensure that there was still a positive pressure, and even after all this and at 30 there was.

And there is nothing cleaner in my system than the corny kegs. The steel cylinder cools quicker than a plastic cube, and puring it from the keg into the fermenter aerates the wort nicely ready for the yeast.

Cheers,
Jake


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## afromaiko (23/12/08)

Kegs are not designed to seal on inwards pressure. So what will happen is that air could be sucked in through the poppets and around the hatch. In fact, kegs won't seal properly at all unless they have a positive outward pressure. The only way I could see this working is if you pressurised the keg with CO2 at the correct amount to balance the suction caused by the cooling wort. Of course this also then causes a problem because you have begun to carbonate your freshly boiled wort with CO2, which isn't going to help ferment kick off unless you can aerate it again well.

EDIT: you just beat my post.. good to hear you were able to work it out.


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## pokolbinguy (23/12/08)

Well seems that Jakechan's experience seemed to work perfectly....the major advantage I see of using the corny's that I already have is that I dont have to find anymore space to house the cubes....spaces is scarce at home for brewing gear atm so being able to keep things neat and tidy would be great.

Also the cornies are nice and easy to keep clean being SS and are easily purged with CO2 for storage.

The positive pressure of the co2 should easily seal the keg...and any contraction of wort will be minimal in relation to the pressure of the co2....on the same note the carbonation forming in the wort would be minimal (read none) as you need quite a large volume of co2 to carbonate 18ltrs compared to just purging the keg.

Yes I could go and find myself a cube quite easily most probably....but why not use something I have at hand if it will work perfectly well....and thats why I asked...

Anyway food for thought.

If ideas like this were never challenged homebrewing would never change....

Pok


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## Jakechan (23/12/08)

Have a go Pok, if it doesnt work come and visit and I will shout you a brew


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## pokolbinguy (23/12/08)

Jakechan said:


> Have a go Pok, if it doesnt work come and visit and I will shout you a brew



Haha thats a pretty good offer there Jake....shame it might just work  

Anyway it seems like a good idea to me....and other than the idea of it sucking in air....which should be easily counteracted by purging the keg then there shoudn't really be any problems....


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## T.D. (23/12/08)

Pok, 

I know a commercial brewer who did this very thing in lieu of a plastic cube. It worked beautifully with none of the negative outcomes predicted above. Give it a go. I'm sure it will do the job nicely. Then just fashion up a liquid QD and some beer line, sterilise it all and push the wort into your fermenter with a squirt of CO2. Will oxygenate it very effectively. 

If there's one thing that kind of worries me a little about no chill, its prolonged use of plastic cubes, and any health implications that go along with that. Using a s/s keg instead sounds like a good option and if you have a few in reserve, why not use them!


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## randyrob (23/12/08)

When i first started AG I used to do this with no adverse effects at all, except the odd burn leg from accidentally leaning up against the keg.
I used to take it 1 step further and push a bit of beer out of the keg and make starters, once the starters going then pitch the rest!

I did find it a bit of a pain in the arse stripping the kegs right down after woods to remove hop trub etc from the dip tubes, poppets etc
but never had one suck in, i always purged the kegs with quite a bit of co2

Rob.


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## Fents (23/12/08)

very nice article in BYO about fermenting in a corny - attach a gas QD, with some beer liner running into a bucket of sterialised water and voila! instanst SS fermenter. Cannot see why NC wouldnt work in a keg. I loved to see how much pressure it took to collapse a keg - NC in a keg i dont think will go anywhere near close imo.


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## Steve (23/12/08)

pokolbinguy said:


> Anyway what do others think??



I say give it a go if you want. I personally no chill in the fermenter. Once chilled aerate and throw in the yeast. Easy.
Cheers
Steve


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## Jakechan (23/12/08)

The beauty of the keg though is that you are not necessarily no chilling. I got mine from boiling down to 30 in probably an hour all up by the time I transferred and realised I can use the pool. I pitched the yeast the same day.

So, does this still count as no-chilling? I doubt it. But if I had used the cube I would be pitching the yeast today.

Cheers,
Jake


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## PostModern (23/12/08)

I always seem to have an empty keg about, but I wouldn't use it for NC. The poppets have a lot of seals, threads, invisible internal parts and the looong dip tube. I'd want to completely strip, sanitise and service the poppets each use. Mine have thread lids, so the seals would work despite negative pressure. I doubt they'd buckle as (unless pressurised with a little CO2) they'd just suck air into the gas port or beer line. 

Meh, each to their own. My HDPE cubes are working really well for me.


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## Thirsty Boy (23/12/08)

People might note that I didn't say it wouldn't work - I just said that I didn't think it was the best solution and that if it was, it would be the one that was the most common. It isn't.

I'm all for innovation in brewing - but honestly, is it people who are in the planning stages of their first AG who are likely to be successful at that innovation? or would they perhaps be better off following the lead of more experienced brewers till they have some sort of an idea what they are doing? And its not like this is innovation anyway... have a read of the original no-chill threads, it was thought of and done really rather early in the piece.

Jakechan successfully put hot wort from his first AG into a corny and rapid chilled it (that wasn't No-chill if it was cool in 60min..) and its been done as actual no-chill by a few other people as well - but how many people would have recommended it? As opposed to get yourself a cube, or chill in the kettle, or chill in the fermentor? Things that are regular parts of discussion around this forum? Anyone planning on stopping using their hdpe cubes in favour of a corny keg now that you know it works?

Sorry to rant at you Pok, I just think that you would be heaps better off going for a stock standard technique - something that someone else has worked all the kinks out of for you. And I think that those stock techniques are to be found, not in stuff that people "used to do when they first started" or "I did that once and it was fine" etc etc; but in the things that many people do with success every day.

Make some beers, learn what the hell is going on, learn which bits of the process you think are good and bad and _why_... and then maybe look for a case of " I tried this yesterday and it worked great..." that could help you tweak your process towards one that really suits you.

That said, if you have a compelling reason to use corny kegs.. what the hell. Use the damn things. Sounds like it will work fine.

Thirsty

PS - Jakechan, your corny cooled down rapidly in the pool... but why do you think that it did so any more quickly than a cube would? The corny might be steel and transfer heat better than hdpe... but the cube is going to have more surface area per unit of volume. If you want to "chill" in a container, then I still suggest that your cube would be a better choice of container to chuck in your pool. Easier to fill, easier to clean, no purging or pressurizing to worry about, no pulling in air if you don't pressurize, the Willow ones hold a higher volume so you get to fill the corny with a whole 19L of finished beer afterwards. You have both cubes and cornies... try them both rather than going with the I will never use the cubes line... then you get to see which is better. Either way. If you are rapid chilling in a keg/cube... rememer to be just as careful with your sanitation as you would be with your fermentor. You lose a great deal of the Pastuerization benefit involved in no-chilling by chucking it in the pool, so you need to be careful.


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## MartinS (23/12/08)

> but the cube is going to have more surface area per unit of volume



I somehow doubt that the surface area would be significant:
* The curved side of a corny (50cm h x 20cm d) has about 3150 sqcm of (stainless?) steel in it (ignoring the steel lid and all the rubber bits). 
* A typical cube is 17x54x34 giving it about double the surface area of the keg's curved side.
* Stainless steel has about 50 times the thermal conductance of HDPE (25 W/mK vs 0.5 at HDPE's upper end).

If the two are the same thickness, (I suspect a cube will actually have thicker walls than a keg), the keg will start emitting heat at about 25 times the rate that a cube would.

As for how much CO2 to put in there: A fixed mass/volume of CO2 at 100*C will have about 30% more pressure than the same gas at room temperature (I think). Factor in another 30% from the liquid shrinking (which will add 800mL to your headspace). If you set your guage at 60kpa, then disconnect, you should have just enough gas to handle the cooling (but not keep a seal). Put it at 120kpa, and you'll have plenty of gas in there to cover everything and keep a seal once its cooled, yet there's not going to be nearly enough gas to have any noticeable effect on carbonation.

I should really be working, instead of running numbers .


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/12/08)

As a largely off-topic aside, I am about to return a couple of Willow cubes I bought on the weekend because they cannot be made to seal. When compared to the cubes I purchased a couple of years ago, it is clear they have decided to save some money on their molding.

So, I'm now on the lookout for the bestest cubes to be had.

Back on topic, I figure that I want to end up with at least a keg's full of beer coming out of my fermenter. Starting with a keg of wort to ferment doesn't help me get there. The thing I like about the 20-ish litre cubes is that they size nicely against standard (?) size fermenters which results in a goodly-sized batch. For my money, it is about ensuring the sizes of all the vessels throughout the process match.


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## Leigh (23/12/08)

Off-Topic:

I've read a couple of times on this thread about the pasteurising benefits of no-chill...has this actually been measured or is this just somebodies theorising that became urban myth that was repeated enough times that it is now fact?

On-Topic:

Just because a method isn't promoted by the members of one particular club (AHB), who are, as one of the retailers keeps pointing out, really just another minority group in the Australian home-brewing scheme, does not mean that the method isn't a good one, or is infact not better than the existing method...

...and further, being in charge of multi-millions of dollars in innovation funding, sometimes it is those who are just starting out who have the brightest ideas...the phrase "old dogs new tricks" comes to mind. 

Point is, ideas can come from anybody, so lets not go down that whole route of "you're not qualified to think on this topic"!


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## Steve (23/12/08)

Leigh said:


> Off-Topic:
> 
> I've read a couple of times on this thread about the pasteurising benefits of no-chill...has this actually been measured or is this just somebodies theorising that became urban myth that was repeated enough times that it is now fact?
> 
> ...



Off topice answer:
Dunno

On topic answer:
+1

Cheers
Steve


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## Ross (23/12/08)

Personally I love the idea of using S/S kegs as I still worry about the quality of plastics coming from some manufacturers; especially when I here of guys having to wash their cubes out with boiling water several times to get rid of the plastic taste - These things are supposed to be food grade, what the hell is leaching out that tastes of plastic? Does several rinses cure the problem, or is whatever's leaching, just not detectable by taste anymore?
Kegs are easy to fully sanitise, far easier for me than cubes & I have a nice selection of 23L ones that would be perfect for this.
i reckon I'd just fit my sodastream bottle at low pressure to the gas valve & purge the headspace with CO2. As the cooling creates contraction, the headspace will just top up with a small volume of CO2 - once cooled, just disconnect the bottle & put away till brew day.


Cheers Ross


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## buttersd70 (23/12/08)

Leigh said:


> Off-Topic:
> 
> I've read a couple of times on this thread about the pasteurising benefits of no-chill...has this actually been measured or is this just somebodies theorising that became urban myth that was repeated enough times that it is now fact?



One of the retailers (I think it might have been either scotty or MHB, but can't remember, nor can I find the link  ) made a post about a week ago, including a report that he'd prepared for his insurers relating to pasteurisation in the production of FWK (which is essentially the same as standard no chill). It had full graphical breakdown and analytical data relating to time v temperature, and it's effect on pasteurisation. It was a very interesting read.


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## Darren (23/12/08)

Thirsty,

Obviously the reason corny no-chill is "not the most common practice" is because MOST people no-chilling are trying to save money (or have not yet made a chiller). $10 for a "cube" is an easy, short term fix.

To think that everyone has spare kegs lying around to be used as "no-chill" vessels to me is short sighted!!

The reason the keg "chilled" in the pool so much quicker is in fact that plastic is a VERY poor thermal conductor.

cheers

Darren


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## T.D. (23/12/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> As a largely off-topic aside, I am about to return a couple of Willow cubes I bought on the weekend because they cannot be made to seal. When compared to the cubes I purchased a couple of years ago, it is clear they have decided to save some money on their molding.



What size were the cubes that didn't seal? Were they the 20L jerry cans. I bought some of these recently and could not get the lids to seal either. Seemed to be due to the heat (not what they are designed for) but still didn't make me that happy after shelling out $40. Anyway, I suppose they can be used as CCing cubes or something instead.

Sorry for the OT...


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## PostModern (23/12/08)

The best cubes are empty commercial wort packs. Food grade HDPE bought by a food goods producing company for the purpose of packaging hot wort, ie no guessing, the breweries order what they need. Food grade means that the plasticisers are safe to consume, even if they do leach, usually citric acid or similar is used. I've never had one smell like plastic, even when new. I would be suspect of using any container that smelled like plastic to put hot wort into.

Again, the main disadvantage I see with using corny kegs is that I wouldn't trust them for long term storage unless the posts have been completely broken down and sanitised _each use_. Wort needs more care than finished beer.


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## T.D. (23/12/08)

Ross said:


> Personally I love the idea of using S/S kegs as I still worry about the quality of plastics coming from some manufacturers; especially when I here of guys having to wash their cubes out with boiling water several times to get rid of the plastic taste - These things are supposed to be food grade, what the hell is leaching out that tastes of plastic? Does several rinses cure the problem, or is whatever's leaching, just not detectable by taste anymore?



Beyond any flavour issues, there's also the question of what chemicals are being leached out in the process. I don't want to sound paranoid, but given that fumes from plastic are considered toxic, is there a possibility that adding boiling liquid to plastic on an ongoing basis could extract similar toxins? Just playing devil's advocate here - no idea if there is any actual truth to this, but its always been something I've wondered about. The s/s option puts an end to any such possibilities though...


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## PostModern (23/12/08)

T.D. said:


> Beyond any flavour issues, there's also the question of what chemicals are being leached out in the process. I don't want to sound paranoid, but given that fumes from plastic are considered toxic,



Fumes from *burning* plastic. At wort temps, HDPE (shouldn't) doesn't release anything. It doesn't go plastic until 130C, at which time it might release a food grade plasticiser. We went thru all this in the early No Chill threads, no need to rehash it here.


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## David Sinclair (23/12/08)

I like the idea of fermenting in a keg, i've got plastic fermenters that are all stained and funky looking and (unfortunaltely) i always seem to have a couple of spare kegs. I might start doing 38l batches and using two kegs.

Such a simple idea, now why didn't i think of that.


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## T.D. (23/12/08)

PostModern said:


> Fumes from *burning* plastic. At wort temps, HDPE (shouldn't) doesn't release anything. It doesn't go plastic until 130C, at which time it might release a food grade plasticiser. We went thru all this in the early No Chill threads, no need to rehash it here.



Thanks PoMo for the clarification, and sorry to waste everybody's time with such trivial issues!


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## PostModern (23/12/08)

Sorry TD, didn't mean to get all forum Nazi on you, but the number of posts knocking NC in plastic cubes despite the (tens of??) millions of litres safely produced wort is quite frustrating to read again and again. HDPE is even used in place of tin cans for packing fruit now. The stuff is SAFE.


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## Jakechan (23/12/08)

Well, Im with Ross, I dont like the idea of using plastic at all. And when I can replace my fermenters with something else other than plastics I will be happy. I dont really care what the MSDS says for HDPE, I still dont trust it especially at higher temps.

This has been an interesting thread though. Apologies to the mods if they feel this topic is stale, but like any forum new people join all the time, and the old topics will continue to resurface. As long as we are all nice... 
(Im a mod at another forum BTW so I understand the problem)

Cheers,
Jake


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## PostModern (23/12/08)

Jakechan said:


> Well, Im with Ross, I dont like the idea of using plastic at all. And when I can replace my fermenters with something else other than plastics I will be happy. I dont really care what the MSDS says for HDPE, I still dont trust it especially at higher temps.
> 
> This has been an interesting thread though. Apologies to the mods if they feel this topic is stale, but like any forum new people join all the time, and the old topics will continue to resurface. As long as we are all nice...
> (Im a mod at another forum BTW so I understand the problem)
> ...



My last few posts weren't as a mod, they were as a NoChill zealot 

Using kegs to NC is a relatively new area. Like all brewing techniques, it'd be interesting to see this method tested.

EDIT: Interesting to see it tested without bashing an existing proven technique, preferably


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## Jakechan (23/12/08)

PostModern said:


> My last few posts weren't as a mod, they were as a NoChill zealot
> 
> Using kegs to NC is a relatively new area. Like all brewing techniques, it'd be interesting to see this method tested.



Cool, my misunderstanding.

Cheers,
Jake


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## pokolbinguy (23/12/08)

Wow....this thread seems to have become a hot topic...never have thought it would be so controversial either....O well makes things interesting...

Pok


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## Leigh (23/12/08)

buttersd70 said:


> One of the retailers (I think it might have been either scotty or MHB, but can't remember, nor can I find the link  ) made a post about a week ago, including a report that he'd prepared for his insurers relating to pasteurisation in the production of FWK (which is essentially the same as standard no chill). It had full graphical breakdown and analytical data relating to time v temperature, and it's effect on pasteurisation. It was a very interesting read.



Thanks for that Butters, an interesting read. Linky here.

I still don't see the point though...pasteurisation is being used as an arguement for not chilling, but after a 30-60 min boil and dropping that into the cube at near boiling temperature, you are already as pasteurised as you will ever get...most pasteurisation holds at 70-80 degrees for a few minutes...more time just does nothing for that arguement...

Hence my question, which could have been phrased a little better:

The advocates for no-chill claim the "added" pasteurisation of no-chilling (hence the arguement above against chucking the corny in the pool)...my question above is really: Has this been measured (yada yada)?

Contrary to posts above, HDPE does breakdown (over a loooooong time), heat and UV etc only accelerate this...so isn't chilling when cubing better to avoid this?

Using these ideas, it would mean no-chill in something other than plastic would be preferred...

...and what exactly does "food grade" mean? Safe to consume?

Playing devils advocate here...


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## Duff (23/12/08)

A few of us in Sydney tried this a couple years ago in kegs - Linky

I guess at the end of the day it was the ease of dumping a 15L cube into the fermenter which resulted in the switch to a cube from a keg. Maybe some guys are still doing it.


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## trevc (23/12/08)

I was tempted to respond, but Thirsty Boy took the words right out of my mouth!


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## warrenlw63 (23/12/08)

Jakechan said:


> Well, Im with Ross, I dont like the idea of using plastic at all. And when I can replace my fermenters with something else other than plastics I will be happy. I dont really care what the MSDS says for HDPE, I still dont trust it especially at higher temps.
> 
> This has been an interesting thread though. Apologies to the mods if they feel this topic is stale, but like any forum new people join all the time, and the old topics will continue to resurface. As long as we are all nice...
> (Im a mod at another forum BTW so I understand the problem)
> ...



Heya Jakechan... Love yer avatar. Are you a fan of Pink Floyd or George Orwell's Animal Farm? Gotta love Napoleon.  

Oh and good to see yet ANOTHER NC thread. <_<

Warren -


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## dr K (23/12/08)

I do not NC, leave it at that.
If I were to do so I would use a keg, apart from anything else carefull selection of spear length would allow me to draw the wort off the trub. What annoys me though is the so-called advatage from a pasteurisation point of slow chill v fast chill.
Bollocks.
Pasteurisation occours in 20 secs at about 72C, that is 99.999% of the nasties are killed, in fact a normal 66C mash for 60 minutes will effectively pasteurise the wort. The beer from the boiler is almost sterile, I assume that no-chillers take the same sanitary precautions with their re-used cubes as they do or should do with everything else.
Sorry, you cannot have some something that is more pasteurised, it is or it is not.
Fresh Worts Kits are the greatest innovation in home brewing kits ever (why Coopers did not continue with them back in the early 80's I cannot say nor can I say if they were hot packaged) you are not going to get Botulism and the beer you produce from them is so many streets ahead of the concentrated malt extract diverted from Mars Bars derived kits that it really is a no-show for the old goo.
They do have their compromises though and one of those is inferior cold break and colloidal stability when compared to rapidly chilled wort though given the fact that the beer will be relatively quickly consumed and the myriad of other problems introduced by the home brewer that are toatlly of control of the wort kit manufacturer this can be effectively discounted.
Transferring this technology to home brewing though is curious.
Commercial breweries have the luxury production aids such as highly efficient whirl pooling, in a batch of 50 kits the first and last cubes can be easily sacrificed, however NC does have its advocates and it works for them so as I said I will leave it that., but arguing that it is better because the slow cooling offers some better form of pasteurisation rather weakens the other arguments put foward, as the slow chill better pasteurisation is patent bollocks how much faith can one put in their other arguments.

K


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## sav (23/12/08)

you could take it to a river ,in the rapids and have a swim with it.  
just being a [email protected]$ head.


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## haysie (23/12/08)

I dont no chill, I always plate, but if I were too, kegs are a little more robust and has more variable use`s than a kube. I dont accept "food grade" status as being the be all and end all. Not knocking the plastic, past linky`s assure us n/c is viable.


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## Jakechan (23/12/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Heya Jakechan... Love yer avatar. Are you a fan of Pink Floyd or George Orwell's Animal Farm? Gotta love Napoleon.
> 
> Oh and good to see yet ANOTHER NC thread. <_<
> 
> Warren -


Yeah, the Floyd is a favourite from my youth. Animals is a ripper (especially on vinyl) .  


Edit: added gratuitous mention of vinyl


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## rude (23/12/08)

Done only 2AGs n/c if I had a plate chiller I would have quick chilled for sure.
If I had kegs would definately give it a go plus a pool.
Plastic definately puts me off.
Oh well at least Im sucking a beer out some people cant drink jeez
Cheers to you all anyway.
Oh heres to the inventor who can get the wort into the fermentor from boiling to 20 or less in no time quickly , easily & cheaply.


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## Thirsty Boy (24/12/08)

OK - so we know that lot of people who don't actually no-chill, think that no-chilling in a keg might be a good idea... not so much from the people who actually do no-chill, but enough so that its an idea that might benefit from being explored.

dr K -I am fully aware of the theory of pasteurization - and yet... in actual practice.. there was a bit of a trend some time ago amongst people who actually no-chill, where those who used techniques to speed up the nonetheless slow chilling, were suffering anecdotally greater incidence of swollen/infected cubes. It was theorized that perhaps one of the reason might well be that this was because the heat had less time to act as a sterilizing agent.... theoretically right or theoretically wrong, it seemed to win general agreement and also seems like good advice to me - more heat for longer = more insurance against germs. If they are all dead anyway, hell, you get to dance on their graves. When its balanced off against achieving nothing at all in the case of putting a hot cube into a fridge.... go on, you tell him what he should do, you know best. Leave the cube to cool naturally, or stick it in the fridge? and why. After you provide us with advice, I will say nothing because I cant compete with all the stuff that you know that I don't.

Oh, and your statements about the formation of cold break and the colloidal stability of fresh wort / no-chill beers are based on which studies? Or are they perhaps based on inferences you have made from classic brewing theory. I'm not saying you aren't right ... but I don't see any proof apart from your say so. So its more than possible that this is bollocks... and what would that do for the credibility of the rest of your arguments?

As for thinking that someone needs to be qualified to innovate.. who the hell said that? If some of you people think that new brewers should be encouraged to go beyond methods that have a bit of experience behind them... then thank Christ you weren't the ones giving me advice when I first started brewing. New brewers can innovate - they just shouldn't _need_ to if they are getting decent advice.

Plastic cubes cool down within the hour in a big tub/swimming pool of water.. don't need surface area equations nor heat transference figures... actually watched it happen.

I've had enough of this thread - if people think that trying to steer a newbie towards the safe and well trodden bit of the path he has chosen is a bad thing, then I don't know what the hell is a good thing. Sorry for thinking I might know a thing or two about things I actually regularly do. I'll shut up now so the people who don't no-chill at all can go on giving advice about how it should best be done.


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## Ross (24/12/08)

Jeez thirstyboy, not like you to get het up so easily...

read Poks 1st post



> If you were to do as Jakechan (here) did and fill the keg and then purge with CO2 this should keep infection at bay nicely??? Then place in fridge to cool down for ferment....
> 
> Anyway what do others think??
> 
> At the moment I have a bundle of empty cornies and using them would be great instead of having to source cubes


.

He states quite clearly he has a bundle of empty cornies & would rather use than source cubes if suitable - The fact is, kegs are quite suitable & there's really little reason not to use if you wish - plastic cubes maybe better or maybe not, I've personally only ever used cubes or fermenters & regularly "no chill", but that wasn't the question - also Pok is not a newbie, even if he is doing his first AG, having been around for several years as a regular poster.
It was a good question & has certainly given me food for thought....  

cheers Ross


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## PostModern (24/12/08)

Leigh said:


> ...and what exactly does "food grade" mean? Safe to consume?



Food grade plastics contain only non-toxic plasticisers. ie, as the plastic breaks down, you only get eg citric acid out.



dr K said:


> What annoys me though is the so-called advatage from a pasteurisation point of slow chill v fast chill.
> Bollocks.
> <snip>
> Transferring this technology to home brewing though is curious.



Knowing that the wort is pasteurised and hermetically sealed in a cube means that it can be stored until needed. There are instances of very old (6 months plus, I believe) cubes of wort being dumped into fermenters and great beers produced.

The advantage for me is that I rarely get the hours needed to make AG beer, so when I find myself with the time, I can bang out a dozen cubes in a week and ferment them as I need.

Not sure how all the others treat their cubes, but I look after them in terms of cleaning as well as my fermenters. I also have a friendly local brewer who supplies me with plenty of single-use cubes (ex commercial wort packs), so I can retire cubes if for whatever reason I consider them suss, or as more fresh ones come in.

This technology has traversed from commercial to home brewing successfully and has many advantages, few disadvantages, many practitioners and more detractors.


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## imellor (24/12/08)

Pok
Seems your plan is a great topic. Only problem I can see as I think someone else has stated is that after ferment will you have enough left to fill your corny. I use cubes and have never had a problem but always ferment more than 19L to ensure I fill the keg without disturbing the yeast cake. What is left goes into a bottle 1L or 2L.

Cheers
Ian


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## Thirsty Boy (24/12/08)

Dammit - it must be that time of the month... I am foaming at the mouth then remorsefull, then all ticked off again. Think I'll go have a cry, a bex and a bit of a lie down. I shall attempt to redeem myself by being reasonable for a second, then I really will withdraw from this thread... but only so I don't have another hissy fit in an hour's time and make more of a dick of myself  

a] - I don't think that trying to no-chill in a keg is a "bad" idea or wont work, never said that. I just think that they are not going to be _as_ suitable a container for doing it in' as are the type of cubes that most people currently use (not counting the kettle and fermentor guys)

b] - I know Pok isn't a newbie, I didn't at any point mean to infer that he isn't capable of thinking through the process. He is a new AG brewer though.

c] - I still think that when Pok does his first AG, he would be steering for the safest (in terms of results) easiest and most well trodden ground, to go with putting his wort into a bog standard NC cube (or fermentor). Or of course to actually chill. Corny kegs might well be the best NC container on the planet; and in a year's time we might have all chucked our cubes in the bin... but someone who is about to do their first AG, should leave the _risks_ of finding out to people who have only a batch at stake... not their "first" batch.

d] - Unless.... they have a good reason to take the risk, which it seems that Pok well might

Having said as clearly as I have been so far able to manage.. what it is that I actually meant all along - I'll call it quits before I lapse into histrionics again.

Thirsty


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## reviled (24/12/08)

I personally wouldnt use a keg to NC, purely due to the fact that I then wouldnt have any drinkable beer in it  And thats just not good! :lol:


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## haysie (24/12/08)

Was it, 
Faaaark me said the Fairy Queen, there CAN only be one way!! Pigs ass!
Good topic, about to head around to a fellow AHB`er 4 a xmas beer,he has no chilled in the keg. Ill ask him to read the thread and post his results and opinion.


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## pb unleaded (25/12/08)

haysie said:


> Was it,
> Faaaark me said the Fairy Queen, there CAN only be one way!! Pigs ass!
> Good topic, about to head around to a fellow AHB`er 4 a xmas beer,he has no chilled in the keg. Ill ask him to read the thread and post his results and opinion.


I no chilled in kegs many times with good results. After filling it with hot wort I would then put the keg in a fish pond to speed up the no chilling. This was probably unnecessary as I always waited til next day to transfer to fermenter.
Now I 'yes chill" but if I was to no chill again I would still do it in a keg.
In my opinion a keg is more suitable container than a cube.

merry xmas

arthr


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## Mr_Brewer (25/6/17)

any one seen this not the same but


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