# Les the Weizguy: Help with Erdinger clone



## thuperman (31/10/14)

I am particularly seeking out Les but would much appreciate any help that people can give me.

I have a question about the following recipe that Les posted, but wasn't sure if I should bring back from the dead a thread that hasn't been touched in 5.5 years.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/28987-erdinger-clone/?p=402164




> Start with about 10 litres of water in the pot and bring to the boil. Remove from heat and add about a kilo of the DME (wheat or barley, shouldn't make a difference), and dissolve. Return to the heat and recommence the boil. Be careful to dial in the boil to avoid boil-overs, as this will be on the stove-top for 90 minutes. I was just thinking that you could use the original hop quantities if you choose to add as FWH (in the cold water, as it heats). It's up to you - maybe next time?
> Add the remaining DME (off the heat) in the last 5 or 10 minutes of the boil.
> The advantage of the DME limited quantity boil, is that you can cool in a laundry sink or bathtub of cold water.
> The recipe:
> ...



I made the "Panic Button Hefeweizen" from Homebrew Talk almost two years ago but it turned out like liquid bubblegum. I didn't have temp control at the time and it turned me off creating Weizens as well as extract brewing.

Well, I'm back, have got temp control, now keg instead of bottle, and I'm really keen to make a nice extract hefeweizen.

Firstly, would it make much difference if I used a dry yeast - WB06 instead of W3068? I have never done a yeast starter before but a mate has offered his stirplate for me to borrow.

Any other modifications that you've made to the recipe recently?

Thanks for all the help (sorry that it's long-winded)!


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## Weizguy (31/10/14)

G'day thuperman,

I hear good things about WB-06 but I have little experience with it (only used it once). I'd suggest you try the recipe with it, and try again another time with the liquid yeast if the flavours are lacking.

Pretty sure I modified the recipe from the Wheeler and Protz 'Brew Classic European Beers like those you buy'.

Haven't brewed this recently, but maybe it's the right season!

Good luck with this recipe and please report back here.

Les


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## manticle (31/10/14)

Lez is still around and loves his weizens so I reckon you'll get some good advice from him.
My input though - you will get a different result (not worse/better - that depends on you and your expectations) but different. 3068 is a good hefe yeast.
Fermentation schedule and mash process (latter not relevant in your case) will influence clove/banana balance with 3068.


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## thuperman (3/11/14)

Thanks guys. I'm really keen to try the 3068, but might stick with the dry yeast for this one. Hobospy and I are having a brew off around Christmas time with some other mates and are trying to push each other outside of the box a little. You can check out how his first attempt at a yeast starter is going here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83470-how-long-to-wait-for-a-yeast-starter-to-kick-in

I'll report back with the results.


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## thuperman (10/11/14)

Brewed this up this evening as per instructions except that I pitched WB-06 instead of 3068 (incidentally I couldn't find 3068 at the LHBS anyway), and used a copper immersion wort chiller instead of the ice bath. I found that my stove top struggled to maintain a rolling boil towards the end.

Pitched a little high at 27C. Temp control at 18C. SG was 1058. Blowoff tube connected.

Will report back in a few weeks.


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## mr_wibble (11/11/14)

It would be an interesting experiment for you to brew the same recipe with '3068.

For me WB06 Vs 3068 is chalk and cheese.


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## thuperman (11/11/14)

Mr Wibble said:


> It would be an interesting experiment for you to brew the same recipe with '3068.
> 
> For me WB06 Vs 3068 is chalk and cheese.


Yeah, I'm definitely keen to try the same recipe with 3068. My mate is acting as Guinea pig with liquid yeast and a starter.

Anyone with WB06 experience think 18C will get too much clove? Last time I used it I didn't have temp control, it got hot one day and I ended up with bubblegum beer. Tasted terrible!


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## thuperman (11/11/14)

The other interesting thing was the SG of 1059 after mixing up to 23L. Higher than Les' predicted 1051.


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## thuperman (12/11/14)

Update for those of you playing at home...

The WB-06 went mental over the first night. Krausen was quite high but not quite high enough to end up in my blow off tube. Since then, the activity has been seemingly non-existent (no - I have not been checking the SG, yes - I realise that a lack of bubbling does not mean that it is not still fermenting). Does this sound normal? I've swapped over to a standard airlock. Still sitting at 18C.


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## thuperman (19/11/14)

I generally leave my brews 3 weeks in the primary before kegging to allow for the yeast to clean up after itself. Anyone recommend kegging this one after two (assuming constant SG over 48 hours) given Les' comment below?



thuperman said:


> 3. Be careful not to exceed 20�C ferment temp, and bottle as soon as the beer is ready. Don't leave it in the vessel too long after ferment is finished. Wheat beer is so suceptible to aceto-bugs.


Also, there seems to be a lot of debate about whether to cold crash a hefe. Best to leave it out with this recipe?


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## Weizguy (19/11/14)

The Germans do it, but I usually don't.

If you feel like it, and have time, go for it.

If not, probably still good


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## thuperman (20/11/14)

Thanks Les.

You mentioned not to leave it in the vessel too long after the ferment is finished. Does this mean that there is no need to let the yeast clean up after itself as I would normally do with other styles?

Sorry for the 20 questions. I love a good wheat beer.


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## Weizguy (20/11/14)

Always good to perform a diacetyl rest. I have not enjoyed a few butterscotch weizens.

You can leave it in the vessel. I was more concerned about leaving at ambient temp.

Cold condition to drop the yeast or not.
Add lager yeast to bottle condition or not.
If bottling, and using up to 4.0 vol CO2, ALWAYS use strong bottles!


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## thuperman (20/11/14)

I used WB06 instead of W3068, so I assume that no diacetyl rest is required.

I think I'll leave the cold crash decision down to whether I have the time / can be bothered.

As for how long to leave it in the fermentor, that might come down to when I have time to keg it, given that your main concern seems to be related to leaving it at ambient temps rather than the actual time it's left after fermentation is complete.

Yes, and I will be kegging it, not bottling.

Thanks again!


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## Mr. No-Tip (21/11/14)

thuperman said:


> I used WB06 instead of W3068, so I assume that no diacetyl rest is required.
> 
> I think I'll leave the cold crash decision down to whether I have the time / can be bothered.
> 
> ...


Diacetyl is a function of yeast, not liquid yeast only. I've never had it in a hef, but you shouldn't assume.

If you can, try bottling a few. Personally, I find the refermentation adds a more complex flavour. Always interested to see what others think.


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## thuperman (21/11/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Diacetyl is a function of yeast, not liquid yeast only. I've never had it in a hef, but you shouldn't assume.


I've never done a d-rest before. What temperature should I be resting an ale yeast at if my fermentor has been sitting at 18C?

An article in BYO written by Christopher White suggests just giving it an extra day or two at fermentation temp:
"For ale production, the fermentation temperature is usually 65° to 70° F, so temperature modification is not necessary. But the fermentation should still be “rested” at this temperature for two days to ensure proper diacetyl reduction."

A pdf by fermentis suggests actually decreasing the temp for a day:
"Decrease temperature from 20°C (68°F) to 16-17°C (60-62°F) for 24 hours"



Mr. No-Tip said:


> If you can, try bottling a few. Personally, I find the refermentation adds a more complex flavour. Always interested to see what others think.


Thanks for the tip, No-Tip. I usually get two bottles out once the kegs has been filled but I might grab a few more based on this suggestion. :beer:


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## Weizguy (21/11/14)

Yeah, just a couple of extra days at ambient should clear the diacetyl.
Even if you drop the temp a couple of degrees, the yeast will still be active. Perhaps the temp decrease discourages negative impacts from bacterial growth.


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## thuperman (21/11/14)

Sweet. Just lowered it from 18 to 16 (can't hurt). Will either keg and bottle in two days or child crash for a further few days.


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## verysupple (21/11/14)

thuperman said:


> A pdf by fermentis suggests actually decreasing the temp for a day:
> "Decrease temperature from 20°C (68°F) to 16-17°C (60-62°F) for 24 hours"


I've never heard anything about reducing temp for a diacetyl rest, in fact I've always heard the oposite - that you should either maintain the temp or let it rise but definitely not let it drop. The theory being that yeast are more active at higher temps and will get the job done faster. That's one of the reasons lagers take longer to mature.

So I had a look at the document and it definitely says to decrease the temp. I wonder what the reasoning is?

EDIT: The plot below is interesting. It's for a lager fermentation and it indicates a rapid decline in diacetyl when the temp is raised to about 14 C from 12 C. But I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the gravity is close to terminal and more and more yeast are processing non-sugar compounds at that stage of the fermentation.


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## Mr. No-Tip (21/11/14)

verysupple said:


> I've never heard anything about reducing temp for a diacetyl rest, in fact I've always heard the oposite - that you should either maintain the temp or let it rise but definitely not let it drop. The theory being that yeast are more active at higher temps and will get the job done faster. That's one of the reasons lagers take longer to mature.
> 
> So I had a look at the document and it definitely says to decrease the temp. I wonder what the reasoning is?
> 
> EDIT: The plot below is interesting. It's for a lager fermentation and it indicates a rapid decline in diacetyl when the temp is raised to about 14 C from 12 C. But I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the gravity is close to terminal and more and more yeast are processing non-sugar compounds at that stage of the fermentation.


Yeah, I don't know WTF fermentis are on about. I'd suspect it was a typo if it wasn't consistent in a couple points. 

I've always thought of fermentation as a party. If you just keep drinking, the party will end, but you probably passed out without cleaning up. If you take a bunch of cocaine, you probably won't be able to get to sleep and end up doing a speed clean at 4am. And...um...raising the yeast temp stimulates them like cocaine, or something....


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## thuperman (29/11/14)

Arrrrghhhhh!!

Keg / bottled this Friday night and gave it a try on Saturday night... Bubblegum again!!!

Devastated!

I don't know what I have done to this yeast for it to hate me so.

Fermented at 18C, weird Fermentis suggested D-rest at 16C for 2 or 3 days, Cold crashed at 2C for 3 days.


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## hobospy (30/11/14)

Not half as devastated as I am mate!! :-D.


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## thuperman (30/11/14)

At least twice as devastated. I now have used WB-06 twice and have two batches of bubblegum beer. I'd offer it to the 5 year old next door if it wasn't alcoholic.

Anyone else had so much trouble with this yeast? Maybe I can try it with Mango juice like they do at the Lowenbrau.


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## droid (30/11/14)

~ the yeast has gotten into an orgy it has produced a lot of diacetyl from the high initial temp
~ until it has essentially dropped off from dropping the temp down and not enough yeast was left to clean up the diacteyl
~ not much yeast left will produce esters in the ferment
~ the diacetyl will also produce esters when bottled (not sure with kegging)
~ not aerating the wort will produce esters

making a yeast starter with dried yeast or liquid
cool wort quickly
aerate the wort when it is cooled (pouring from bucket to bucket will do it)
pitch at your desired ferment temp (eg - yeast is 20deg, the wort is 20deg and the ferment temp is 20deg)

yours sincerely
the bubblegum beer king


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## jasonmac72 (1/12/14)

I'm sorry to hear I'll be drinking bubblegum beer at the brewoff. -_-

Third time lucky!


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## thuperman (1/12/14)

droid said:


> ~ the yeast has gotten into an orgy it has produced a lot of diacetyl from the high initial temp
> ~ until it has essentially dropped off from dropping the temp down and not enough yeast was left to clean up the diacteyl
> ~ not much yeast left will produce esters in the ferment
> ~ the diacetyl will also produce esters when bottled (not sure with kegging)
> ...


So, the pitching at 27C killed me, even though it would have been down to ~18C within two hours?

Bugger! I miscalculated how cool that I need to get the wort before mixing with tap water.

Next time will pitch at fermentation temp. If I miss it again, can I use the temp-controlled fermentation fridge (for an hour or two) to get the wort to the desired temp before pitching the yeast? Is the consequence a chance of infection due to no CO2 layer above the wort?

Finally, is there anything that I can do to salvage this batch? Pitch some more yeast and leave at ambient temps for a D-rest? Chew some Hubba Bubba before drinking it so that, relatively, it doesn't taste so bad?


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## Weizguy (1/12/14)

I'm sure that the outside of the vessel may have been down to 18°C in two hours, but what of the core of wort? Do you have a thermowell thermometer?

Having said that, I find it quite acceptable to cool the wort in the sanitised and sealed fermentor for an overnight chilling, prior to pitching.

I have not been blessed/cursed with the bubblegum character for a while, so cannot comment about it.

Best not to share wheat beer with kids. They will get a taste for it, and that can only lead to, umm, beer appreciation?


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## droid (1/12/14)

> So, the pitching at 27C killed me, even though it would have been down to ~18C within two hours?


I could be wrong plenty of other people are saying so in the urgent help thread, I seem to be the only one having an issue with temp drops directly after yeast pitching - all I can say is that there will be no thermal shocking if the yeast is pitched from a starter at the same temp, having always pitched high and nearly always getting that bubblegummy sort of flavour, when i never aerated the wort and I pitched yeast too warm



> Bugger! I miscalculated how cool that I need to get the wort before mixing with tap water
> 
> Next time will pitch at fermentation temp. If I miss it again, can I use the temp-controlled fermentation fridge (for an hour or two) to get the wort to the desired temp before pitching the yeast? Is the consequence a chance of infection due to no CO2 layer above the wort?.


I put mine in the fridge (temp controlled) let it get down to the temp overnight with the lid and airlock on, I get up in the morning and aerate the wort pouring into a big pot and back into the fermenter a few times then add the yeast, no problems but this is what cubing is good for too, because there is less headspace, however I cool my beer from the stove down to 30 or so in a short time



> Finally, is there anything that I can do to salvage this batch? Pitch some more yeast and leave at ambient temps for a D-rest? Chew some Hubba Bubba before drinking it so that, relatively, it doesn't taste so bad?


lol when you work that out let me know, I think this is a really interesting area and I have not seen much speak about it. maybe people don't want to admit to screwing up - that's a no brainer really isn't it? maybe people give up

it may be even worth doing some small batches, I can do 5ltrs, try a few different ways to save it, on the urgent thread my thought would have been to cold crash, rack out of fermenter off the yeast layer, bring back up to ferment temp, aerate then re-pitch

we might be able to take beer to bubblegum and back again! lol


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## manticle (1/12/14)

No. Don't aerate finished beer. Active yeast can help reduce diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Pretty sure it won't change esters or phenolics.
While droid may be correct about the higher temps leading to bubblegum, I have not heard of diacetyl creating esters (different chemical pathways involved for a start).
I agree with pitching close to intended ferment temps. Try changing yeast to 3068.


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## droid (1/12/14)

> on the urgent thread my thought would have been to cold crash, rack out of fermenter off the yeast layer, bring back up to ferment temp, aerate then re-pitch


not about this thread

well i did not "hear" about diacetyl but rather read it yesterday while researching about pitching yeast too high and then dropping temps too quick, esters and the like

I will try to find the reference I thought it was in John Palmers book, it was a book on beer, so I figure they know what they are talking about


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## manticle (1/12/14)

Regardless of which thread, aerating beer once fermentation is underway is a bad idea.


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## droid (1/12/14)

sorry thuperman for this shit

right, forums huh? vs palmer, hieronymous and Strachan - hmmn they talk to people who have actually done the stuff they're talking about, good stuff

I will allow you to put the link up thanks Mr, that'll be for the other thread.

have you pitched a 1010 yeast over its highest temp boundary of 23 degrees by 2 degrees? you let it go for a day at that temp dropped the temp down to 20, fermented it for how long, racked it, dry hopped it? and whatevered it?

you then did another 25 degree batch and left it at 25, everything else the same? wow!

you then did another but crashed it, racked it, brought it back up to temp and aerated it, re-pitched and left it at the perfect temp

it was worse than the other two was it?

bravo


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## manticle (1/12/14)

What? Chill out brother. You are making little sense and are being defensive for no reason.
It is well established that aerating fermenting beer is a bad idea - if you have evidence to the contrary, please enlighten.
I am unsure about your diacetyl = esters reference (actually reasonably sure it's something you misread) but again - you made the statement, you provide the evidence.
In the mean time - relax. I'm discussing brewing, not spoiling for a rumble.


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## thuperman (1/12/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I'm sure that the outside of the vessel may have been down to 18°C in two hours, but what of the core of wort? Do you have a thermowell thermometer?
> 
> Having said that, I find it quite acceptable to cool the wort in the sanitised and sealed fermentor for an overnight chilling, prior to pitching.
> 
> ...


Fair point, although I didn't think there would be a huge difference in temp between the outer and middle parts of the wort. I don't use a thermowell, just insulate against the side of the vessel.

At 6.5%, I agree that it's best to keep this one away from the kiddies. 



droid said:


> I could be wrong plenty of other people are saying so in the urgent help thread, I seem to be the only one having an issue with temp drops directly after yeast pitching - all I can say is that there will be no thermal shocking if the yeast is pitched from a starter at the same temp, having always pitched high and nearly always getting that bubblegummy sort of flavour, when i never aerated the wort and I pitched yeast too warm
> 
> I put mine in the fridge (temp controlled) let it get down to the temp overnight with the lid and airlock on, I get up in the morning and aerate the wort pouring into a big pot and back into the fermenter a few times then add the yeast, no problems but this is what cubing is good for too, because there is less headspace, however I cool my beer from the stove down to 30 or so in a short time
> 
> ...


Brewing another batch now, will stick it in the fridge overnight if I cannot get it down to fermenting temp tonight. And I'll let you know if I can save it. So far, thinking of letting it get warm and hoping that whatever yeast is left in there might do a bit of a D-rest.



manticle said:


> No. Don't aerate finished beer. Active yeast can help reduce diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Pretty sure it won't change esters or phenolics.
> While droid may be correct about the higher temps leading to bubblegum, I have not heard of diacetyl creating esters (different chemical pathways involved for a start).
> I agree with pitching close to intended ferment temps. Try changing yeast to 3068.


Plan has always been to try this recipe with 3068 next. Was hoping to have a fair comparison of WB06 to use. Doesn't look like that's going to happen.


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## Mr. No-Tip (1/12/14)

Try a stress pitch at 12 or 13 degrees, ranking to 18 or so over four days. Makes for the best Hefs IMO.


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## thuperman (2/12/14)

I won't have much control over temp now that it's in the keg. I took it out of the keezer last night and it's currently sitting in the garage.

Plan was to pitch half a pack of US05 tonight, purge the air, leave for roughly 4 days at ambient temp (could get warm in Sydney), throw it back in the keezer (set to 3C).

Does this sound OK or which fundamental rules of brewing would this destroy?


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## thuperman (2/12/14)

OK, after a bit of reading, I'm now considering not pitching anymore yeast just yet. I think I'll just let it warm up for ~4 days and then cool and taste again. If that doesn't work, I might think about the yeast again.

I was also surprised to read that people actually aim for the bubblegum flavour. I certainly didn't enjoy it.

Side note: Can anyone suggest a commercial weissbier that is high in banana and another that is high in clove? I might have to do a side-by-side comparison before I brew my next hefe.


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## Mr. No-Tip (2/12/14)

thuperman said:


> Side note: Can anyone suggest a commercial weissbier that is high in banana and another that is high in clove? I might have to do a side-by-side comparison before I brew my next hefe.


To me a good hef should be balanced so that neither dominates, to the point that a novice mightn't pick the banana and wouldn't pick the clove without it being pointed out. That said, they'll all have their different takes. Rather than have someone hand you a bottle and say 'this ones nana', get yourself a Schofferhoffer, an Erdinger, a Franziskaner and a Paulaner and compare them blind yourself. Which do you like? Does it have one flavour more dominant?


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## thuperman (3/12/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> To me a good hef should be balanced so that neither dominates, to the point that a novice mightn't pick the banana and wouldn't pick the clove without it being pointed out. That said, they'll all have their different takes. Rather than have someone hand you a bottle and say 'this ones nana', get yourself a Schofferhoffer, an Erdinger, a Franziskaner and a Paulaner and compare them blind yourself. Which do you like? Does it have one flavour more dominant?


I was going to do this the last time I was at Dan's but didn't have time to browse. I'll make a trek there soon. I was going to add Weihenstephaner to that list. I should say that I have tried all of these but wasn't exactly analysing them.


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## droid (4/12/14)

@manticle

apologies, it was a long day of reading and forum searching, it seems people sometimes jump on the bandwagon, drinking the cool-aid so to speak and yeah anyway

I cant find the text, not even the site, I thought I read that when the temp is high too <edit) high a lot of diacetyl is produced, then if the temp is dropped esters are produced then if it is bottled with a lot of diacetyl the sugar reacts creating more esters which I thought shared some relationship with the diacetyl

anyway, sorry - onwards and upwards


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## manticle (4/12/14)

No worries mate. Esters are a result of a fatty acid and an alcohol combining. Amounts and types of acids and alcohols are partly a function of temperature at the beginning of fermentation so the amounts and esters formed will depend on early temperatures even though the esters are actually formed later (one reason why keeping temp low close to pitching time is important in terms of ester production).

Temperature early on also contributes to levels of diacetyl produced and yeast health is a significant factor in the level of diacetyl which is later reduced. There is a definite relationship between temperature, yeast health and levels of esters and diacetyl.

I agree entirely with you when you suggest keeping temp low at the beginning to reduce esters and diacetyl in finished beer.


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## thuperman (31/12/14)

Just as a bit of a status update, the bubblegum flavour dropped out dramatically after letting the keg warm up with ambient temps. The result is actually quite a nice wheat.

I have also been trying out several German Wheats and was not a huge fan of the Erdinger, but I LOVED Franziskaner (always have). What I hadn't noticed before (I hadn't tasted it for different flavours before), was the banana explosion in the Franziskaner. Moving to BIAB soon so I'm going to be trawling this site for AG clones soon.

Thanks again for all your help! Morale of this story: never give up on a beer.


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