# Keg Conditioning V Forced Carbonation



## Fatgodzilla (11/2/08)

I've completely ignored all keg related issues until today, cos I've never had a kegging system (lots of bottles though).

I now have in my shed a fridge with two taps and EIGHT cornies. So time to reinvent my wheel.

With this many kegs, I have plenty of spares to condition beer. But I have a lot of questions. Are you ready.

1. Not worried about how to force carbonate. Have found the good reading. I have two beers ready to keg to play with. But why force carbonate ? Is it merely a time thing ?

2. To condition a keg do I add sugar (ie make it a large bottle ?). For instance, if I want to keg a brew that I would normally bottle condition for 6 months say, do I just wack it in the keg and leave it, or add the sugar for a long conditioning ? 

3. Is there any reasons why keg carbonated beer (and call it aged too if it helps) will taste different from the same brew force carbonated ?

4. After I force carb a keg, what happens when I take it out of the fridge and off the gas. As the keg contents warms up, what happens to the carbonation ?


I have a number of questions but these will do and I reckon the other questions will probably pop up. In the meantime, what is the difference and advantages of and between force carbonatated beer and keg carbonated beer ?


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## bconnery (11/2/08)

Alright. I'm only relatively new to kegging myself but it all seems to be going well so here is my understanding / belief / what I've read...
I could be wrong or there could be better ways but here goes...



Fatgodzilla said:


> 1. Not worried about how to force carbonate. Have found the good reading. I have two beers ready to keg to play with. But why force carbonate ? Is it merely a time thing ?



My understanding is that yes it is. I've talked to a few brewers about this and they seemed to say they force carbonated for speed reasons but I haven't delved around to see if there is a better explanation. SOmetimes I do it. Sometimes I don't...



> 2. To condition a keg do I add sugar (ie make it a large bottle ?). For instance, if I want to keg a brew that I would normally bottle condition for 6 months say, do I just wack it in the keg and leave it, or add the sugar for a long conditioning ?


You can add sugar to condition but I believe you either need to be super confident in your amounts or else have a relieve valve with gauge thing. (Sponsers, or at least one, sells them. ) You can also just leave it in the keg. I haven't tried to condition one that long yet 



> 3. Is there any reasons why keg carbonated beer (and call it aged too if it helps) will taste different from the same brew force carbonated ?


I don't know if there is a reason. Maybe the interaction with the sugars perhaps(assuming you are talking about adding sugar. 
It might be worth adding here that there are kind of two methods of adding gas without sugar. Force carbing usually refers to doing it quickly, with a high gas level, rather than adding gas at serving pressure and allowing it to carbonate up over a period, usualy around a week. 



> 4. After I force carb a keg, what happens when I take it out of the fridge and off the gas. As the keg contents warms up, what happens to the carbonation ?


Don't know. Maybe some might dissolve out but I don't think so. I don't think this is advisable. I think you should keep it cold but more experienced people will have to answer this one for you...


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## Zizzle (11/2/08)

What about the sediment that will inevitably form from yeast fermenting that sugar?

Moving the keg will disturb it and make the beer cloudy? Taste yeasty?


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## Back Yard Brewer (11/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> 4. After I force carb a keg, what happens when I take it out of the fridge and off the gas. As the keg contents warms up, what happens to the carbonation ?




I have force carbed many times then taken the keg out of the fridge and have let it go warm. Have had some sit for up to 3mths.The beer has then been run through a miracle,jockey,magic box call it what you like. Never a problem.

BYB


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## Fatgodzilla (11/2/08)

4. After I force carb a keg, what happens when I take it out of the fridge and off the gas. As the keg contents warms up, what happens to the carbonation ?




Back Yard Brewer said:


> I have force carbed many times then taken the keg out of the fridge and have let it go warm. Have had some sit for up to 3mths.The beer has then been run through a miracle,jockey,magic box call it what you like. Never a problem.
> 
> BYB




So your saying beer stays "preserved" in the keg - since it can't oxidise unless exposed to the air, nothing should go wrong ?



> Zizzle Posted Today, 01:34 PM What about the sediment that will inevitably form from yeast fermenting that sugar? Moving the keg will disturb it and make the beer cloudy? Taste yeasty?



Not worried about cloudy beer. Thought read sometime that the sedimentary yeast would be sucked up in first few brews, the balance should be clear. Yeasty taste - don't get that when I drink a bottled brew that has been disturbed - can't see why a keg would be different.


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## Ross (11/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Yeasty taste - don't get that when I drink a bottled brew that has been disturbed - can't see why a keg would be different.



I'm amazed you can't taste yeast in suspension, maybe we aren't all sensitive to it :unsure: . Generally ruins the beer for me, unless I'm looking for the yeast character, as in a wheatie...

Cheers Ross


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## joecast (11/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> 4. After I force carb a keg, what happens when I take it out of the fridge and off the gas. As the keg contents warms up, what happens to the carbonation ?
> 
> So your saying beer stays "preserved" in the keg - since it can't oxidise unless exposed to the air, nothing should go wrong ?
> 
> Not worried about cloudy beer. Thought read sometime that the sedimentary yeast would be sucked up in first few brews, the balance should be clear. Yeasty taste - don't get that when I drink a bottled brew that has been disturbed - can't see why a keg would be different.



on the cloudy beer topic. the difference being in a keg you have sediment from 19L of beer (if you naturally carbed the beer) not 330ml as in a bottle. so you basically would get all your sediment through, or at least what the pick up tube can "pick up", in your first few pours, then if you move/disturb the keg and any other sediment that shifts. this is just what i can gather from reading about it as i've only carbed two kegs using gas.

as for carbonation level. once a beer has been carbonated and reached equilibrium, any change in temperature or pressure will affect carbonation level. i would think if you let it warm, then chilled it again prior to serving, the co2 would go back into solution and find equilibrium again. i dont think it would matter how the beer was carbed in the first place. 

and yeah, i think the only reason to force carb is the time factor. of course us new keggers are the ones most likely to be impatient, and the ones with the least experience too  cheers
joe

ps. hopefully none of that was blatantly wrong. im sure someone will correct if that is the case.


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## drsmurto (11/2/08)

Ross said:


> I'm amazed you can't taste yeast in suspension, maybe we aren't all sensitive to it :unsure: . Generally ruins the beer for me, unless I'm looking for the yeast character, as in a wheatie...
> 
> Cheers Ross



Me too. Not sure why ppl feel the need to naturally carb a keg. Last thing i want after i spend time racking ccing lagering beers is to fill it back up again with crud :huh: 

Not saying my beers are crystal clear but they are the bottom of a CPA keg either! 

As for tasting yeast - i think the whole tip vs no tip for drinking CPA sums up that issue.


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## Fatgodzilla (11/2/08)

Ross said:


> I'm amazed you can't taste yeast in suspension, maybe we aren't all sensitive to it :unsure: . Generally ruins the beer for me, unless I'm looking for the yeast character, as in a wheatie...
> 
> Cheers Ross



Ross if you tasted MY beers I can't guarantee what you will taste  

Because I often cube for a secondary rest my beers I get little yeast sediment. By the time I empty the bottle, drinking yeast and all, who knows what I'm tasting !!


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## geoffi (11/2/08)

I am but a humble party-kegger. But I don't think my beers have a 'crud' problem.

Surely all you need to do when naturally carbonating a keg is to make sure your dip-tube doesn't reach the bottom. The beer is sitting nice and cold anyway, so the yeast should drop out and sit harmlessly on the bottom.



DrSmurto said:


> Me too. Not sure why ppl feel the need to naturally carb a keg. Last thing i want after i spend time racking ccing lagering beers is to fill it back up again with crud :huh:
> 
> Not saying my beers are crystal clear but they are the bottom of a CPA keg either!
> 
> As for tasting yeast - i think the whole tip vs no tip for drinking CPA sums up that issue.


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## Fatgodzilla (11/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Me too. Not sure why ppl feel the need to naturally carb a keg. Last thing i want after i spend time racking ccing lagering beers is to fill it back up again with crud :huh:




Assume no filtering of beer from secondary to keg. Leave beer. Are you saying there will be no yeast sediment in the keg since there is no continuing fermentation to produce sediment ? 


The point is, apart from someone mentioning yeast in suspension, no one has answered the question - why force carb v condition carb ?


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## Cortez The Killer (11/2/08)

That's right - no further fermentation to produce crud

I've never had the patience to not force carbonate. In my early kegging days I would deliberately under carbonate - so as not to over carbonate - and while the beer was drinkable in this state - over time it'd come up to proper carbonation while left on the gas

You prime the keg in the same way you would a bottle. The only draw back of naturally carbonating is that you need to wait for the beer to clear up again.

As long as the beer is given time to clear up after naturally carbonating - it should be the same. The first couple of pints will have sediment - but the rest clear. Some keggers cut the bottom of the pick up off so the sediment isn't picked up.

So to basically answer the question naturally carbonating means you save gas but must trade this off with have to let the beer clear up once again and put up with some sediment 

This is weighed against being able to drink the beer 15 mins after force carbonating and the absence of sediment 

Try both methods and see what you prefer. Obviously some beers will be better suited to conditioning, while others are just about right to go out of the fermenter

Cheers


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## bconnery (11/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Assume no filtering of beer from secondary to keg. Leave beer. Are you saying there will be no yeast sediment in the keg since there is no continuing fermentation to produce sediment ?
> 
> 
> The point is, apart from someone mentioning yeast in suspension, no one has answered the question - why force carb v condition carb ?


The yeast in suspension mentioned would be a reason. 

I don't filter from primary to keg. I have given up on secondary altogether now, and I was a big fan of it before. I just ferment as usual, then chill the beer down for a few days like a mini cold condition. 
This drops the yeast right down into a big cake and I can rack directly to the keg with no filtering and have very little crud...
I use gelatine in the keg to drop the stuff down even further. 

Without filtering, using this method and kettle finings as well, I achieve very clear beers. 

I was never very worried about clarity in my beers, until I got them clear. The lack of stuff in suspension, wheats aside, allows flavours to stand out better. The beers taste brighter would be the best term I can manage. Plus they look really cool. More like commercial beer than homebrew...


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## Ross (11/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> The point is, apart from someone mentioning yeast in suspension, no one has answered the question - why force carb v condition carb ?



Speed is the main factor for force carbing, followed by clarity. If you filter or fine, then the clarity issue doesn't really come into it.
Naturally conditioned beer in theory should hold a better/tighter head. A force carbed by by head pressure alone will get similar results, but still takes time, whereas a force carbed beer by the rock n roll method, will get you drinking the beer in 5 minutes & removes the risk of possibly emptying your gas bottle, if you are unlucky & develop a leak. You take your choice. 
I generally filter & force carb as I'm an impatient bugger & like to get my next brew down.

cheers Ross


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## Fatgodzilla (11/2/08)

Ross said:


> Speed is the main factor for force carbing, followed by clarity. If you filter or fine, then the clarity issue doesn't really come into it.
> Naturally conditioned beer in theory should hold a better/tighter head. A force carbed by by head pressure alone will get similar results, but still takes time, whereas a force carbed beer by the rock n roll method, will get you drinking the beer in 5 minutes & removes the risk of possibly emptying your gas bottle, if you are unlucky & develop a leak. You take your choice.
> I generally filter & force carb as I'm an impatient bugger & like to get my next brew down.
> 
> cheers Ross




Okay, good good.

Now the obvious follow up though is, is there any advantage of using the kegs as a secondary. Eight kegs is way too many unless I use them as conditioning vessels. If I put the beer in kegs and then do either of two things, what will happen.

1. Fermenter to keg to fridge - cold condition for possible few months until need to gas and consume (get for lager ?)

2. Fermenter to keg - leave in shed. Cold winter (10C - 15C) or warm summer (20C - 25C). 

Assume kegs are airtight, can anything go wrong with the beer ?


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## TidalPete (11/2/08)

bconnery said:


> use gelatine in the keg to drop the stuff down even further.
> Without filtering, using this method and kettle finings as well, I achieve very clear beers.



Ben,

I've never added gelatine to the keg yet but would like to give it a go. How much gelatine do you add per keg & how long do you let the keg sit (in the fridge) before consumption?  

TP :beer:


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## Jye (11/2/08)

TidalPete said:


> Ben,
> 
> I've never added gelatine to the keg yet but would like to give it a go. How much gelatine do you add per keg & how long do you let the keg sit (in the fridge) before consumption?
> 
> TP :beer:



Hey Pete, dissolve 1 teaspoon in 100ml of pre boiled water that has been cooled down to 70. Then add it to your chilled beer when racking or already carbonated keg. Leave it for a minimum of 2 days, after this the first pint poured will be very yeasty and the beer should start to pour very clear after that.


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## drsmurto (12/2/08)

OT a touch but since gelatine has been raised in this thread i thought i would ask it here.

Never used gelatine in the keg - do you throw away the first pint or 2 until it clears?

If this is the case could you do this in the bottle? ie. pour a bottle from the keg, add gelatine and then cap? 

How long can beer be in contact with gelatine for? If time isnt an issue and assuming it drops to the bottom a gentle pour and all would be OK?


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## Jye (12/2/08)

I havent read anything about maximum contact time for gelatine. That said the longest Ive had is about 2 months and no off flavours were coming through.

I cant see any problems adding the gelatine to already carbed beer and bottling. But if the yeast has already dropped out in the keg then its pretty useless. Ive had gelatine clear chill haze but from my understanding this is a side effect from the yeast stripping process. So if the yeast has been removed gelatine can not remove chill haze.


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## drsmurto (12/2/08)

Its just that i have an APA in the keg that is very cloudy. I used US56 and found this is a regular issue. That said, i dont do protein rests and its been suggested this would help. 

Want to bottle a few of these to take with me on the weekend and i thought this would be an interesting experiment. As long as you tipped the bottle slowly i dotn see the issue. In the past i added it into secondary and then racked off into the keg. This time i was in desperate need of some hoppy beer so i kegged it asap! It tastes good, it just looks bad. Hard to convince nay saying mates my beer is good when i serve up torrens water to them. Especially after having a xtal clear pils.


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## SJW (12/2/08)

Weel I always throw in Gelatine and it works a treat. Crystal clear and bright as can be. The reason I like to force carb is I don't like leaving the gas on for days on end. I transfer from the primary into the keg (in the freezer) and just hook the gas up to gas in post, as normal, and leave at 300 kpa for 12 hours. Then dont even vent. And in another 6-12 hours the reg should be steady on 80 Kpa or so. If not I just give a hit each night before bed. But I like to see the reg steady on 50 or 80 kpa for days, without drinking of coars, that way I know I dont have a leak.

Steve


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## bconnery (12/2/08)

TidalPete said:


> Ben,
> 
> I've never added gelatine to the keg yet but would like to give it a go. How much gelatine do you add per keg & how long do you let the keg sit (in the fridge) before consumption?
> 
> TP :beer:


+1 what Jye said. It was from mostly from him that I got the tips in the first place...


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