# Smash Pilsner Critique



## manticle (13/8/09)

I'm brewing a SMASH pilsner this weekend which I'm hoping to use for the vic case swap. Never done a case swap before and would like to make it a reasonable drop with no extra complications (hence the smash idea).

I've looked at Boston's recipe in the DB and doctored/tweaked it a little.

I figure if I brew 26 litres I should be right for 26 bottles + a few regular tastings to make sure I'm not providing bilge. Boston's recipe does not use an acid rest (nor a diacetyl rest but they're so easy I'll probably do that anyway).

Bohemian Pilsener

*Type:* All grain 
*Size:* 26 liters

*Color:* 3 HCU (~4 SRM) 

*Bitterness:* 27 IBU

*OG:* 1.049 
*FG* 1.015

*Alcohol:* 4.4% v/v (3.4% w/w)



*Grain:* 6kg JW Pilsner

*Hops:* 40g Saaz (4% AA, 60 min.)
30g Saaz (4% AA, 20 min.)
10g Saaz (4% AA, 15 min.)
10g Saaz (aroma)



Yeast: wyeast czech pilsner 


*
Mash:* 70% efficiency

*Boil:* 60 minutes 

SG 1.040 32 liters



I don't use beersmith so I hope I've calculated my water and sparge additions correctly as well as evaporation rates. Mash 18 L water, lose 6 L result 12 L. Batch sparge 16-18 L?

Cheers


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## Cocko (13/8/09)

Sounds about right bro...

Doesn't beersmith have a FREE 30 day trial? Give it a run!

:icon_cheers: 

If you like it, then you can pay for it... Don't download a crack!!


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## drew9242 (13/8/09)

If you don't mind me asking. I have read your other thread and am wondering how you are going to boil 32l in that pot.

But recipe looks good.


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## manticle (13/8/09)

Cocko said:


> Sounds about right bro...
> 
> Doesn't beersmith have a FREE 30 day trial? Give it a run!
> 
> ...



Unfortunately I downloaded the demo, got confused and never used it. Now expired and not eligible. I will be buying a version soon now my free online brewing software has shown its limitations (was great for extract and partial) and for the $20 odd it costs I wouldn't bother with going for a crack. That's worth supporting and it's on my list along with a couple of other things.

I think I should be less confused given my knowledge of brewing has expanded somewhat. I also have people I can bounce questions from who are familiar with it.


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## manticle (13/8/09)

Drew9242 said:


> If you don't mind me asking. I have read your other thread and am wondering how you are going to boil 32l in that pot.
> 
> But recipe looks good.



I have 3 different methods I can use

1. Borrow a much larger pot from someone I know (who has offered in the past). Not sure how they'll feel about my burner though.
2. Brew twice and blend. Takes longer but brewing is fun
3. Organise my trip to Cocko's sooner as the man has very kindly offered me a 50L keg for use as a boil pot.

By the way - I actually use 2 pots for my boils - one just didn't make it into the photos. The total is still too small though.


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## Cocko (13/8/09)

Have you run a ProMash Demo? I think it does a 30 day trial too....

Anyway, just tryin to help! :icon_cheers:


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## drew9242 (13/8/09)

I was confused with beersmith when i first got it, and never used it. But after reading more into beer brewing i went back to it, and it is quite helpful.


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## shmick (13/8/09)

G'day Manticle
Maybe add 1/2 kg of light munich for a bit of interest and bump up the IBU's up to low/mid 30's
Most Bo-Pils are a touch heavier than plain pils malt so the munich adds a nice level of complexity  

If you single infusion mash on the cool side (65C) and pitch a big starter you should good attenuation and a crisp finish.
It's good to see you're not overdoing the late hopping as it's very easy to lose a sense of balance with this style

Cheers


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## drew9242 (13/8/09)

manticle said:


> I have 3 different methods I can use
> 
> 1. Borrow a much larger pot from someone I know (who has offered in the past). Not sure how they'll feel about my burner though.
> 2. Brew twice and blend. Takes longer but brewing is fun
> ...




Ohh i see i was just wondering cause i have a very simlar setup. And using 2 pots i strugle to get 20l at the end.
Ahh can't wait to get me bigger pot and Burner.


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## shmick (13/8/09)

What does a copy of Beersmith cost these days - 1 or 2 AG brews?
Surely worth the investment


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## manticle (13/8/09)

shmick said:


> What does a copy of Beersmith cost these days - 1 or 2 AG brews?
> Surely worth the investment




Definitely worth the investment mate. I'm just in a financial pickle. I have beer brewing ingredients but buying so much as a ham sandwich at the moment is problematic. Slowly, slowly.

I'll keep the munich in mind for next brew - this one is intended to be SMASH - as much for my own learning as anything else. I was thinking of trying to get to around 32 IBU so I might have a play in that department though. It's just difficult with saaz being such a low aa hop and substitution obviously defeats the purpose of a SMASH.

@drew: the other thing I have done for getting above 20 L is reserving some wort and adding it slowly as you get evaporation. You may need to do a slightly longer boil but it does work.


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## shmick (14/8/09)

manticle said:


> Definitely worth the investment mate. I'm just in a financial pickle.



Mate - we've all been there. What did they ever do before software??

John Palmer has a few calc sheets and formulas in his 'How to Brew' downloadable book which is all you need to get by.
I did full boil extract brews on the kitchen stove (before being exiled to the bbq after a boil over) in a 20l enamel pot for several years before gathering enough hardware and moving on to AG

Best thing is to just go at it. Take notes, practice, experiment and learn what works for your taste buds.
It is only beer - throw away what you can't stomach and brag about what you can.


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## jaycpollard (14/8/09)

hi mate.

i use one called and home brew calcultor. it free and got a shit load of recipiese you can check out.

http://www.haandbryg.dk/cgi-bin/beercalc.cgi

its heading is in danish but all the prompts and instructions are in english for example... user name. new brewer, new beer. and i think there is a english equivelnt for the web page or you can go through http://www.byo.com/resources/brewing

hope these lnks help thows out there who dont want to pay for a calcultor

cheers


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## DJR (14/8/09)

Brewsta is free and not bad, that's what i've used for ages,calculates things fine etc. A member here wrote it (Sosman). If you want Weyermann malt profiles for it let me know and i can give you the CSV which i created from the average malt specs on the Weyermann site.

Plenty of the ISB members used it for a while there too, at least when we put together recipes for v large batch sizes and the temp calcs were spot on...

http://sourceforge.net/projects/brewsta/


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## Supra-Jim (14/8/09)

Looks good manticle,

Just a note though, with all that pilsner malt I'd be boiling for 90mins (i think you listed 60mins) to ward of DMS.

Cheers SJ


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## manticle (14/8/09)

Thanks SJ. Good call.

@everyone - cheers for the replies. I use beerrecipator.org which has been great but doesn't incorporate some of the more tech parts of AG leaving you to do the calculations. My understanding is beersmith is a bit of a wizard.

In the meantime I might have a sqiz at somee of the others mentioned.


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## Frank (14/8/09)

Manticle
I punched the recipe into BeerSmith for you. I merged the 15 and 20min additions, to one 20 min. Evaporation is for my system, so you may need to adjust a bit for your gear. :icon_cheers: 
Boston
View attachment Manticle___SMaSH_Pilsner.pdf


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## lagers44 (14/8/09)

Hi manticle , getting back to the original question.
You should add some Carapils for some body 500 -600gm and and mash around 64 - 66C. Ff you are aiming for OG1049 then the bitterness should be higher at 30 to 35IBU, a Bo Pils is quite bitter with some body but with a dry finish. FG around 10-12 is Ok but 15 is way too high.
I've just made one with 39IBU OG1049 FG1010 and you wouldn't pick that high a bittering was in it , I think 27IBu would leave it too malty and not quenching enough.

Good luck.


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## brettprevans (14/8/09)

more SAAZ!!!!!! love saaz. I think we've only had one SMASH in the caseswaps. and not too many pils. good work manticle.


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## crozdog (14/8/09)

DJR said:


> Brewsta is free and not bad, that's what i've used for ages,calculates things fine etc. ...........
> 
> Plenty of the ISB members used it for a while there too, at least when we put together recipes for v large batch sizes and the temp calcs were spot on...


I still do!! :super: 



> Just a note though, with all that pilsner malt I'd be boiling for 90mins (i think you listed 60mins) to ward of DMS.


JW pils is highly modified and has low levels of DMS precursors, unlike US and some euro malts. A 60 min boil is fine.

largers44 has some good suggestions there.

what yeast are you going to use?


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## manticle (14/8/09)

Yeast is wyeast 2278 czech pilsner. Hopefully it's a good attenuator - was a conservative estimate only. I might up the IBU a little to around 32. I on't ebe adding any other malts at this stage though as it's specifically designed to be a single malt, single hop beer.

@ Boston - many thanks for that: big help.


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## crozdog (14/8/09)

manticle said:


> Yeast is wyeast 2278 czech pilsner.



I've used the WLP 802 Czech Budejovice equivalent before. It's reportedly the Budvar yeast! Wyeast state 70 - 74% attenuation.

Great yeast, mine was a bit slow to start, but a beautiful crisp clear finished product with low sulphur - especially if you warm for 2 days towards the end of primary and lager for a while.


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## DKS (14/8/09)

As a side note, maybe a little off topic. 
What's meant by smash? Single malt variety in grain bill? :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## buttersd70 (14/8/09)

DKS said:


> As a side note, maybe a little off topic.
> What's meant by smash? Single malt variety in grain bill? :icon_cheers:
> Daz



*S*ingle *M*alt *A*nd *S*ingle *H*op.


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## DKS (14/8/09)

Clear and simple,Thank you Mr Butters. (again) :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## Fourstar (14/8/09)

Looks like a decent beer Mants!

My only advice (more a pet hate with light pilsner/lager brewing) is most people seem to try and brew Bohemian and a German Pils with the only difference being Saaz hops. This unfortunatly is not the only signature that gives you a Bohemian pils. They key to a Bohemian Pilsner is the soft and balanced water profile and the higher finishing gravity/dextrinous wort, not to mention a nice sweet malt profile. As for the Germans, a more pronounced bittering due to the harder sulphate water and finishes quite dry.

To cap off your recipe, make sure you mash at higher temps (67-68deg) to get a higher finishing gravity. Even though you want todo a SMASH, i'd still be tempted to put in say 2-3% Melanoiden malt or some carapils for extra body. The melanoiden will increase the richness of the malt profile as its a malt focused or 'sweet' pilsner, not so much a dry hoppy pilsner like a German is. Other than that, i'd keep everything as it is.

If you wanted to to be German, i'd go German yeast (even the Bohemian wyeast is fine). You can keep the saaz or i'd go Hallertau with the same hopping rate/schedule and add a tsp of Gypsum into the boil to help the hops 'pop'. Mash low 64-65deg and you will have a dry and hoppy pilsner. As you are in melbourne, we all have pretty much soft/low sulphate and carbonate water, perfect for a bohemian, add around 5g of gypsum to the boil and you will have a killer German pils. 

Too many a time i see recipes that are named 'X' style pilsner but there are no/excessive/incorrect water additions or the wrong mash temperature for the style. I believe pilsners and ligher euro lagers are harder to get right than most people think. Unfortuantly, there is more to these styles when building recipes than just hops, yeast and malt.


Either way your recipe looks sound. As long as you mash at higher temps, you have a bohemian pils that i will gladly inhale this summer. 

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## altone (14/8/09)

manticle said:


> Yeast is wyeast 2278 czech pilsner. Hopefully it's a good attenuator - was a conservative estimate only. I might up the IBU a little to around 32. I on't ebe adding any other malts at this stage though as it's specifically designed to be a single malt, single hop beer.
> 
> @ Boston - many thanks for that: big help.



I'm no expert but have brewed a lot of pilsners, your selected yeast is a good attenuator and creates a nice clean finished product.
I'd definately agree on upping the IBU to 32 or a bit more to give a more balanced finish.
It's suprising how much hops a bo pils can handle without tasting too hoppy.

I'm adding your recipe to my brew list, just because I've never done a SMASH pilsner before ( single hop sure, but never single malt)
Hope it turns out well for you mate.


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## manticle (15/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> Looks like a decent beer Mants!
> 
> My only advice (more a pet hate with light pilsner/lager brewing) is most people seem to try and brew Bohemian and a German Pils with the only difference being Saaz hops. This unfortunatly is not the only signature that gives you a Bohemian pils. They key to a Bohemian Pilsner is the soft and balanced water profile and the higher finishing gravity/dextrinous wort, not to mention a nice sweet malt profile. As for the Germans, a more pronounced bittering due to the harder sulphate water and finishes quite dry.
> 
> ...



I was after bohemian style. Admittedly I'm not an expert and water additions is only just something I've started trying to understand. melbourne water and Pilsen water are both soft aren't they? What kind of additions (if any) would you suggest in this case?

The insistence on sticking to a single malt is as much for my learning as anything else). Now that 2 people have both suggested a little extra darker, sweeter malt (all I have is med crystal) for body I can see it might be a good idea but hopefully brewing simply first will allow me to pick what's missing in the result for future brews. Original pils were just pils malt I thought?

@Boston (or anyone else who can answer): I've only ever done single infusion. You've recommended a step mash but I mash in an esky tun with no heat source. Is it possible to drop the initial amount of water and make the step addition to saccarification by adding a few litres of extra hot to up temp from 50 -68 or will that ruin it?

Thanks


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## Frank (15/8/09)

In only added a rest stage, because I though you said you were going to. As a few have stated, you probably won't need it. Stick to single infusion for this one keep it simple. If you want to add some Crystal that's your choice, but it wont be a SMASH. Go for a KISS SMASH and experiment with other additions next time. I will do a few changes and send the recipe again. Use rainwater if you have it for this beer.


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## manticle (15/8/09)

No I'm leaving the crystal out of this one. SMASH all the way - tweaking later as I learn to distinguish what's what and what it needs.

I was curious about the need for rests as I've heard soft water and pale malts needs a protein rest but having never done one, I'll go single infusion if I can.

Thanks for your replies. Heating water and making everything sweetly clean now.


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## Frank (15/8/09)

I got rid of your flame out addition. I am assuming you only have 90g of Saaz ready for this beer. If you want it more bitter, we will need to drop the volume. It is at 28.3 IBU now, which will be fine. You now have a KISS SMASH for your swap. If you use a bit of Gelatine once complete it will come up a treat.
View attachment Manticle___SMaSH_Pilsner__2_.pdf


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## manticle (15/8/09)

Great, thanks for that. Much appreciated.


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## Beerbuoy (15/8/09)

Stick with what you wanted to brew to begin with, SMaSH. Its not going to be a Boh Pils but more like a straight Saaz Pils. I'd stick with around 25 -30 IBU if its 100% pils malt because its going to be a light crisp beer.

Don't lose sight of what you set out to make, a great simple beer.

Cheers


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## neonmeate (15/8/09)

Personally I'd double or triple those saaz quantities! saaz is subtle. and 50IBU worth of saaz is a much gentler bitterness than 30IBU of something high alpha. pilseners are all about hops, whether they're german or czech, without being hoppy you're making a helles. i can barely taste 28 IBUs.

even a beer like Budvar, that isn't that bitter, still has a huge hop flavour - hard for us to get that sort of hoppiness without the best fresh saaz flowers, so using lots of flavour/aroma hops is the way to do it at home. i just made a pretend pilsener with 1007 with 56 IBU of saaz, 40g at 15mins and 40g at flameout. and i still think i should have used more.


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## Fourstar (15/8/09)

manticle said:


> I was after bohemian style. Admittedly I'm not an expert and water additions is only just something I've started trying to understand. melbourne water and Pilsen water are both soft aren't they? What kind of additions (if any) would you suggest in this case?
> 
> The insistence on sticking to a single malt is as much for my learning as anything else). Now that 2 people have both suggested a little extra darker, sweeter malt (all I have is med crystal) for body I can see it might be a good idea but hopefully brewing simply first will allow me to pick what's missing in the result for future brews. Original pils were just pils malt I thought?
> 
> ...



Yeah mate, nothing wrong with what you are doing, i was just pointing out the differences in styles when brewing them. You can easily get away with 100% Pils malt for a Bohemian. Just make sure you UP to Sacch temp to 67-68deg to ensure it finishes with a higher gravity. As you are probably aware, back in the day pilsners where decocted due to high protien malts/under modified which increased the rich melanoiden profile of them.

Considering Melbournes water is akin to Pilsen, the only thing i would add AFTER the mash is some Calcium Chloride to up the malt profile a little and aid in yeash health/flocculation, say 50ppm of calcium, that is all. it will not longer be like pilsens soft water but i'd say you would have a hard time picking it ip.

I'd stick well away from crystal malts in this. My main call for Carapils is to ensure you end up with a higher FG. You can simply do that by upping your mash temp, but adding some carapils will ensure you DO have some dextrins left over and also aid in head retention and body if you do fluff up your mash in some way.

As for mashing, you can do a multi step mash but personally, i wouldnt bother. Weyermann and Local malts are well modified and will convert quite easily. A little calcium would help in the mash to aid conversion, but its not a requirement. If you are worried, you can always mash for longer but if you do a higeher mash temp as ive advised, the enzymes will work faster anyway.

Rule of thumb, lower mash temp and more raw starch/adjunct = longer mash time. higher mash temp, less raw starch/adjunct = faster mash.

I hope this helps mate!

cheers!


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## manticle (15/8/09)

Clarification is good, thankyou.

Today is rapidly turning into more of a prep day than a brewday which is ok. I'm just keen to get this on before the weather gets too warm (which means this weekend) and in time for a decent lagering before the swap.

I'm keeping it simple and sticking with lower IBU. Apart from the fact that I only have a limited amount of saaz (and no means of getting more) I need to understand what I'm doing and build from there. It won't be the only time I make a pilsner and if I find the hoppiness too low I can work with boosting that.

Thanks to all who replied and if it works, any Melbourne case swap attendees can give honest feedback in a few months. If it doesn't I'll be brewing something else.


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## Fourstar (15/8/09)

manticle said:


> I'm keeping it simple and sticking with lower IBU. Apart from the fact that I only have a limited amount of saaz (and no means of getting more) I need to understand what I'm doing and build from there. It won't be the only time I make a pilsner and if I find the hoppiness too low I can work with boosting that.



Even though it goes against your idea of a SMASH, with very good results you can use antoher Noble hop for bittering to bump the IBU. If you move all of the Saaz to later hop additions you will be lucky if you can taste any of the other hop used as the bittering. Just a suggestion.


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## manticle (15/8/09)

I did consider using Northern Brewer or Sterling for bittering but I want to eliminate all variables. I'm mainly a lover of dark ales, stouts, dubbels and so on so I'm trying to challenge myself. There's nowhere for faults to hide and it will develop my understanding of ingredients and process a bit further. Making it 'almost SMASH' will feel a bit like cheating. Start at one place and build from there.


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## Fourstar (15/8/09)

Yeah, understandable. Light lagers are one of the hardest things to get right and they do require stable temperatures during fermentation, moreso than ales as faults stand up quite easily. Keep temps stable, ramp up at the end of fermentation to kill off the last 1-2 gravity points and to clean up any precursors (acetaldehyde, diacetyl) and you are on track for a decent lager mate. The rest of it is in the recipe ingredients. Remember, good beer comes from good recipes and great beer is made by great brewers with good recipes. Follow your processes correctly and i'm sure we will all enjoy it.

Im weighing up if i should do a CAP, Helles or German Pilsner for this swap, A Marzen is another idea, a beer of whcih i haven never brewed but adore.


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## manticle (15/8/09)

I reckon Boston's second PDF posted is the recipe I'll be following. 

Stable temps of 10-12 until she's nearly done, 48 hour rest at around 18 then rack and cold condition at 2 until bottling time.

If it needs more hops then it needs more hops but everyone here seems to like to add 750 kg to every brew and I prefer a tad less. I want to challenge myself but I also want to present a beer that represents me.


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## Fourstar (15/8/09)

manticle said:


> I reckon Boston's second PDF posted is the recipe I'll be following.
> Stable temps of 10-12 until she's nearly done, 48 hour rest at around 18 then rack and cold condition at 2 until bottling time.
> If it needs more hops then it needs more hops but everyone here seems to like to add 750 kg to every brew and I prefer a tad less. I want to challenge myself but I also want to present a beer that represents me.



Sounds good mate! Looking at that PDF, it looks like you are brewing a SMASH Munich/Bohemian/Pilsen/Prague Helles hybrid more so than a Pilsner due to the low hopping rates. The only thing is a helles doesnt have allot of Hop flavour, mainly just bitterness. Either way im sure it will be a kickass beer. Maybe i'll brew a Pilsner of some sorts, a helles and a Marzen and weigh up whats best for the swap... that is of course if i have time.


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## altone (15/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> Sounds good mate! Looking at that PDF, it looks like you are brewing a SMASH Munich/Bohemian/Pilsen/Prague Helles hybrid more so than a Pilsner due to the low hopping rates. The only thing is a helles doesnt have allot of Hop flavour, mainly just bitterness. Either way im sure it will be a kickass beer. Maybe i'll brew a Pilsner of some sorts, a helles and a Marzen and weigh up whats best for the swap... that is of course if i have time.



Looks that way to me too, bit more hop for a nice straight pilsner, but hey Manticle I'd be suprised if it doesn't go down very 
nicely as is.
And as you say, you can tweak it into the direction you prefer from this starting point.
As for water, I normally keep it simple using half tap water and half carbon microfiltered - or distilled.

Good luck with the brew Manticle and I'll let you know how my more high hopped version turns out.


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## manticle (17/8/09)

Just pitched yeast @ 18. A bit high but I want to go to bed and the hi-tech chiller is taking its sweet time.

OG was 1060 so efficiency must have been better than expected. 25 litres (aiming for 26) so I may dilute with a litre or so of boiled cooled water. I don't want to bottle for the case swap and get 24 bottles because I did one too many gravity readings. Smacked the pack of wyeast on Thursday, made a starter with approx. 100g DME on Friday. No foam by this evening but I'm assuming that being a lager yeast it's less obviously active? Only ever done a couple of lagers and both were dried yeast so I'm not certain of what to expect.


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