# Soldering Instead Of Welding?



## Thirsty Boy (20/2/09)

I know that welding is the gold plate option for metal joints - but considering that soldering is much easier and can be done with a handheld propane torch rather than a TIG or MIG... why dont homebrewers solder more of their fittings??

You can solder copper to copper (so easy its laughable) to brass, to stainless, to aluminium and each of those metals to itself.

Sure, a soft solder joint isn't as strong as welding - but its not exactly weak either. I have a few soldered copper fittings in my brewery, and I tried to pull one apart the other day to see how strong it was. The copper pipe got nicely bent into odd shapes, but the soldered joint held. OK, you wouldn't want to build your brewstand out of it (although I have seen a lovely brewstand for an electric system made from soldered copper pipe) but kettle fittings? If you aren't an "it must all be stainless" nut, you could do all your own fittings in easy to work with brass and solder them into your vessels, without tape and o'rings and without paying someone to weld them. I know about glavanic corrosion, but its not going to be worse than if you used brass weldless fittings and plenty of people do that. Or just buy stainless plumbing bits and solder them in yourself - all stainless.

So why not more soldering and/or brazing??

Thirsty

some research to prove I am not crazed - check out the soldering of the pepsi can, not even hot enough to make the paint burn

http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixB-3.html

http://www.durafix.com.au/index.php?conten...onstrations.htm

soldering stainless video -  - he recommends an oxy torch but says you can get away with propane for small jobs.

and a lovely kettle fitting with brass soldered to stainless - http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....hilit=soldering with links to other examples of brass to stainless and stainless to stainless soldering

And I've personally seen Spillsmostofit braze a bit of brass to a bit of stainless tube - so its more than internet research and might even be true


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## Gavo (20/2/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> So why not more soldering and/or brazing??



Maybe just because its a bit more old school? You can basically silver solder almost anything together. I have silver soldered cast iron to copper. There are actually less stresses caused in the metal. A old mate of mine races go-carts (his 80cc does 170km/h) and he builds the chassis of his own and has built many for others. His frames are joined with nickel/bronze brazing rods. Far stronger than welding as welding causes built in stresses in the metal and the welded frames crack around the welds in time.

You could very easily silver solder fittings into stainless kettles etc. You would have to watch out for warping on thin metal due to the heat fro the flame. The oxidized metal would have to also be cleaned with some fine abrasive to halt any possible corrosion.

Brazing a stand together would be quite strong. It would just take longer to do.
I just find it easier to grab the MIG and weld it together.


Cheers
Gavo.


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## schooey (20/2/09)

Is Boilermaker, is welded....


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/2/09)

Is Sparky...is soldered..


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## Tony (20/2/09)

is fitter....... is hit with a hammer :lol:


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/2/09)

is manager... is given to some poor overworked bastard to do instead of eating lunch.


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## Tony (20/2/09)

Is trade unionist....... is going to have lunch anyway!

Back on topic.......... i think soldering is a great option. Braising and silver soldering are strong as as said, less stress creating methods of joining steel.

But to be honest, A Tig, used corectly will give a better finnish once pickled on SS and a Mig is just so damn east to use for welding thin walled tube for frame building ect.

If its soft soldering your refering to, like lead/tin....... i wouldnt recomend it.

cheers


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## schooey (20/2/09)

I found it pretty hard to get a decent soldered joint with one of those handheld butane torches and to silver solder properly, you really need a propane torch and a cylinder. Ok if you have one lying about I guess. I was considering silver soldering a lot of my fittings at one point, but the kettle drain fitting always had me a little nervous. The way the big ass burner licks up around the side of the kettle, I was a bit worried about it getting too warm.. sheer paranoia more than likely, but being TIG welded just gave me piece of mind


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## white.grant (20/2/09)

I've been learning how to braze thin wall steel tubing for my bike frame building hobby. Compared to MIG, its quite hard to get right, you gotta be really careful with joint preparation, fit and cleanliness. You really need an Oxy set to get stainless hot enough, though you can do milder steel, brass and copper with MAPP or propane.

I think Schooey's right though, I wouldn't use a low temp soldered joint anywhere near a NASA, bound to end in tears sooner or later.

cheers

grant


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## Batz (20/2/09)

What is solder?

Reels of solder
Photograph Rapid Electronics 
Solder is an alloy (mixture) of tin and lead, typically 60% tin and 40% lead. It melts at a temperature of about 200C. Coating a surface with solder is called 'tinning' because of the tin content of solder. Lead is poisonous and you should always wash your hands after using solder. 
Solder for electronics use contains tiny cores of flux, like the wires inside a mains flex. The flux is corrosive, like an acid, and it cleans the metal surfaces as the solder melts. This is why you must melt the solder actually on the joint, not on the iron tip. Without flux most joints would fail because metals quickly oxidise and the solder itself will not flow properly onto a dirty, oxidised, metal surface.


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## chappo1970 (20/2/09)

Do not solder what ever you do. I think your refering to brazing, I hope! But you have to have rocks in your head to solder. Remember the urban myth of American moonshiner's moonshine making people blind? It wasn't any myth. Apparently the bootlegger/moonshiner's would use the radiator out of car's and tin solder the stills together. Lead is dangerous stuff.



Tony said:


> Back on topic.......... i think soldering is a great option. Braising and silver soldering are strong as as said, less stress creating methods of joining steel.
> 
> But to be honest, A Tig, used corectly will give a better finnish once pickled on SS and a Mig is just so damn east to use for welding thin walled tube for frame building ect.
> 
> ...


Yep I agree with Tony and Batz.  TIG (A+++), MIG (A++) even good old stick welding (A-) is within the novices grasp these days. A good starting rig can be picked up from evilbay for around $300 new less for second hand and stainless rods of good quality are pretty cheap these days.

Brazing with silver is not difficult but requires patience and lots of practice to master. A simple MAP gas rig will get you started. But it's alot like riding a bike, once mastered you have the skill for life.

Honestly I love the internet for the info but sometimes it can be full of a lot of miss information that is just out and out dangerous. I admit I didn't check out those linkies but being a forum member of a welding/metal arts forum we get alot noobs that have seen this or read that about welding/brazing that just is not true or correct. Like brewing a good beer there are a thousand variables that go into joining metals properly. 

TB if I was in Melb I tell ya to bring what ever you wanted done to my place mate. I let ya nuts on my gear rather than see someone potentially hurt themselves. I twould also give you the knowledge of what you can do and what gear you would want. I have a TIG, MIG, OXY/ACE set, Plasma cutter and on and on.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/2/09)

I agree with most of what has been said above, particularly about misinformation.

Electronic solder has traditionally been made of tin/lead and since the European RoHS legislation has filtered through, you will usually find electronic solder to be lead-free, but if you're not convinced you can also buy leadless silver solder all over the place, including the big green hardware sheds. It's harder to solder with it because you need higher temperatures than lead (which is why the electronics manufacturing companies resisted the change - they had to rework or replace all their soldering equipment), but it works and works well once you've got the hang of it. Brazing rods want hotter again, but they're still doable (harder if the thing you're heating up is a cheapie, paper-thin kettle). I think the key is a good clean surface and a good flux. For me, there's nothing like a good acid to get that job done...

Somebody gave me a propane gas torch, so I tend to use it as I have plenty of experience with solder and I cannot justify the expense of welding kit. It is 25 years since I did any welding at all...


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## browndog (20/2/09)

I think TB when he was talking about solder was actually talking about silver solder, as Chappo stated is really more like brazing and nothing like lead solder. Jeez Chappo, I'd love to be given free reign in your garage mate, sounds like a HB Tinkerers heaven.

cheers

Browndog

edit: included (more like)


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## rclemmett (20/2/09)

Seems like a good time to ask my question............ I know this isn't a welding forum but you guys seem to know what your talking about, and I know very little.

I was talking to a client at work ages ago and he informed me that they only tig weld stainless as when you use a mig it drives the "chronium" (can't quite remember if that was the element) out of the weld and then the weld will corrode. Is that true? If it is true, why doesn't a tig do the same and does the grade of stainless affect this?


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## chappo1970 (20/2/09)

browndog said:


> I think TB when he was talking about solder was actually talking about silver solder, as Chappo stated is really more like brazing and nothing like lead solder. Jeez Chappo, I'd love to be given free reign in your garage mate, sounds like a HB Tinkerers heaven.
> 
> cheers
> 
> ...


browndog you bring the beer mate and the shed is yours to play in! Anything is possible when there's beer involved!


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## browndog (20/2/09)

Chappo said:


> browndog you bring the beer mate and the shed is yours to play in! Anything is possible when there's beer involved!



Woohoo....I think I've found a new best mate!

cheers

Browndog


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## seravitae (20/2/09)

Silver solder for plumbing as far as i know must be food grade as it is used to connect plumbing designed for transferring water for human consumption. Silver soldering is very safe as long as you use the correct solder. In the big green shed in the tool shop next to the electronic solder they have plumbing silver solder. If you are worried call the company up and demand an MSDS - they have to supply one for you - it will list all the metals and fluxes used in the solder. Also next to the brass fittings they usually have 2% silver brazing rods which will do the same job. Generally the only difference between 'soldering' and 'brazing' are the temperature at which you are working at, brazing being higher. 

Silver soldering uses the same principals as electronic soldering but it is safe.. Safe enough that it is regularly used on potable water supplies from what i know.

Blindness is not a common symptom of lead poisoning, in fact I could not even find blindness listed anywhere. However it may happen due to issues with CNS. It is way more likely that the reason moonshiners got blind was because a lot of them were diluting their products with methanol as it was tax free. Also because a lot of them (and even to this day still) derive their ethanol from products like antiseptics, causing toxicity because they didn't seperate the ethanol completely from the other nasties in there. Not from lead..

Hope this clears some stuff up.


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## chappo1970 (20/2/09)

Rob2 said:


> Seems like a good time to ask my question............ I know this isn't a welding forum but you guys seem to know what your talking about, and I know very little.
> 
> I was talking to a client at work ages ago and he informed me that they only tig weld stainless as when you use a mig it drives the "chronium" (can't quite remember if that was the element) out of the weld and then the weld will corrode. Is that true? If it is true, why doesn't a tig do the same and does the grade of stainless affect this?



Wow Rob2 you know how to open up a can of worms here. 

OK I am to assume that this is for the lay man as you have told me you have little experience in welding. TIG and MIG are a bit like chalk and cheese as in the way they form the arc and the frequency (temp) but they can essentially get the same results. I could go into a whole heap of hertz this and amps that but I think that would confuse the whole thing.

In short you are correct it is chromium, as well as few other elements which I won't go into here, and no you mate wasn't right about "drives" the elements out of the weld. That tells me the element is being vapourised which is not true. What happens however in alloys such as stainless steel is the individual elements melt/turn to a liquid state at different temperatures therefore you get "pooling" of different elements. Those elements can be very brittle and or very soft therefore making the weld fail. So therefore different grades of stainless like 304, 316 and so on need to be welded with differing techniques and temperatures with the same process. eg MIG and or TIG. IMO TIG is superior but MIG shouldn't be discounter either. Like where to place a tempmate probe on this forum everybody has a differing opinion on which is best in the welding world.

I hope that answers your question?

I need to lay down


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## OLDS2006 (20/2/09)

BOC has a range of food safe solder


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## Tony (20/2/09)

The TIG is prefered as there is no spatter like you get from a MIG. Its like oxy welding where you form a molten pool with an electric ark under a cloud of argon gas and walk it along the join, adding filler rod as required.

The TIG will do the same to the stainless. 

Its heat related. Once its temp is raised above "x" deg, it will rust again in the area where the temp was raised.

When its welded, you paint the affected area with a pickling paste which is some sort of acid and this restores the stainless surface to the metal.

cheers


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## komodo (20/2/09)

OT : 


SpillsMostOfIt said:


> is manager... is given to some poor overworked bastard to do instead of eating lunch.



I LOL'd - thats me. 
I hate the fact that I cant weld - but love that I have staff who can.


On topic. My understanding is the properly done soldering is as strong as welding and applies less heat related stress to surrounding areas.
The downfall being that it requires better surface preparation and is a more time consuming process.


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## rclemmett (20/2/09)

Thanks Chappo and Tony.

The reason I ask is that I am thinking of addind a tap to my kettle and have access to mig and tig through work, but we're electricians not welders............. So I think I'll look into getting a professional to do it rather than ballsing it up myself. :icon_cheers:


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## chappo1970 (20/2/09)

Rob2 said:


> Thanks Chappo and Tony.
> 
> The reason I ask is that I am thinking of addind a tap to my kettle and have access to mig and tig through work, but we're electricians not welders............. So I think I'll look into getting a professional to do it rather than ballsing it up myself. :icon_cheers:


Yeah Agree Tony is spot on he must be a boilie by trade?

To be honest Rob2 that would be a good move to get a professional. It won't be an expensive exercise and will save in the long run mate. Not for any other reason but welding thin metal to a thick threaded taps takes experience, alot of experience. The main concern for me is that you would burn holes all the way thru and potentially stuff your kettle, sure it can be fixed but then the professional going to double his price.


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## chappo1970 (20/2/09)

sera said:


> Blindness is not a common symptom of lead poisoning, in fact I could not even find blindness listed anywhere. However it may happen due to issues with CNS. It is way more likely that the reason moonshiners got blind was because a lot of them were diluting their products with methanol as it was tax free. Also because a lot of them (and even to this day still) derive their ethanol from products like antiseptics, causing toxicity because they didn't seperate the ethanol completely from the other nasties in there. Not from lead..



Yes and No but anyway I don't want to get into who is right, the point you made is valid sera. All I can say is please DON'T USE SOLDER ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR BREWERY you will poison yourself.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/2/09)

Of course, if you don't like soldering/brazing and cannot weld, there is always lots and lots of silicone sealant...


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## Tony (20/2/09)

:lol: Im a leco by trade and mascerading as a control systems engineer these days.

I did spend lots of time hanging out with boilies learning how to weld ect when i was younger. Glad i did, the skill came in handy.

It takes a lot of practice to get something like tig welding right, Id say if your not confident, get an expert to do it.

cheers


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## roger mellie (20/2/09)

Chappo said:


> Yes and No but anyway I don't want to get into who is right, the point you made is valid sera. All I can say is please DON'T USE SOLDER ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR BREWERY you will poison yourself.



Silver Solder is OK Chappo. Dead easy to use.

RM


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## rclemmett (20/2/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Of course, if you don't like soldering/brazing and cannot weld, there is always lots and lots of silicone sealant...



What about duct tape?


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## chappo1970 (20/2/09)

roger mellie said:


> Silver Solder is OK Chappo. Dead easy to use.
> 
> RM



Roger tha Dodger you are 100% right sorry if I confused anyone.


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## browndog (20/2/09)

Tony said:


> :lol: Im a leco by trade and mascerading as a control systems engineer these days.
> 
> I did spend lots of time hanging out with boilies learning how to weld ect when i was younger. Glad i did, the skill came in handy.
> 
> ...



For some strange reason, I find myself nodding in agreement with all your posts Tony  

cheers

Browndog


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## Zizzle (20/2/09)

Rob2 said:


> What about duct tape?



Luxury. When I was kid all we had was snot and match sticks to put our kettles together. Both ways uphill in the snow.  

Seriously, you can get away with weldless fittings a lot of the time too.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/2/09)

Tony said:


> :lol: Im a leco by trade and mascerading as a control systems engineer these days.
> 
> I did spend lots of time hanging out with boilies learning how to weld ect when i was younger. Glad i did, the skill came in handy.
> 
> ...



Ahhh - exactly why I asked the question in the first place. TIG welding is hard - TIG welders are expensive. The realm of experts in my opinion.

But soldering (not lead based of course.. the links I posted _did_ specify that....) is easy, a half decent torch for same is not too exy - and if you screw it up or change your mind... you can heat it up and pull it apart again. Just the right sort of conditions for an amateur to have a crack.

So it would seem an attractive option for people who prefer to do things themselves, but don't have the equipment or skill for stainless welding. You can solder different metals together which seems a useful feature and especially it would seem not too big an ask to solder copper to Aluminium.

It just seems to me that there is a lot misinformation out there that makes people think it can't or at the least shouldn't be done, which stops them from even considering it as an option.

Interesting to see everyone's different points of view. 

Thirsty


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## Tony (20/2/09)

browndog said:


> For some strange reason, I find myself nodding in agreement with all your posts Tony
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



VB is nice

VB is good

VB is better than Duvel

keep noding mate


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## rclemmett (20/2/09)

Tony said:


> VB is nice
> 
> VB is good
> 
> ...



As long as you keep your posts short we'll keep nodding.

PS please keep posting.

PPS what happened to the other GIF?


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## Jakechan (20/2/09)

Coincidentally Ive just spent the last 2 days stick welding, I have a project at home (not beer related but thoughts of a brewing engine are formulating!). Haven't welded for over 25 years and its all coming flooding back to me...the tired eyes, the sore knees, the strained back 

But to add to Chappo's mention of inexpensive welders, I just bought the CIG Wledskill 170 Inverter brand-spankers for $380, and its a ripper.

Can do TIG too apparently but I wont bother with that.

Cheers,
Jake


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## Tony (20/2/09)

It was a bit much...... Photobucket killed it before AHB but i have a feeling it wasnt long before the mods stepped in on that one.

Hoping this one will pass without tipping a 10 on the offencive meter.

back to topic 

cheers


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## Sully (20/2/09)

Caveat Emptor - watch the cheap MIG welders on Evilbay... $300 unit turned out not to be a good investment :angry: 

Even a mate that can weld couldnt use it, so my lack of knowledge and experience wasn't the main problem.

OT.... MIG Welder for sale $200 ono - 1 month old & barely used, will make for a terrific Boat Anchor. h34r:

Cheers

Sully


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## TidalPete (21/2/09)

Tony said:


> It was a bit much...... Photobucket killed it before AHB but i have a feeling it wasnt long before the mods stepped in on that one.
> 
> Hoping this one will pass without tipping a 10 on the offencive meter.



:icon_offtopic: 

Ahh Tony, you take me back!

Political correctness has killed a lot of the fun & enjoyment in life mate.  
Remember NRB's avatar? 

 *I LOVEIT!* :lol: 
Haven't seen him around for a long time.

TP


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## yardy (21/2/09)

Sully said:


> Caveat Emptor - watch the cheap MIG welders on Evilbay... $300 unit turned out not to be a good investment :angry:
> 
> Even a mate that can weld couldnt use it, so my lack of knowledge and experience wasn't the main problem.
> 
> ...




what was the problem with it Sully ?


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## Sully (21/2/09)

yardy said:


> what was the problem with it Sully ?


We spent hours mucking around with it different speeds and amps and couldnt get a decent weld. Basically welding on 1 or 4 was the same, no mound and very flat welds on every setting. I am not that savvy with the technical side of welding but it was shit, kept blowing holes and couldn't get a fluid weld happening no matter what we tried. I used my mates welder and could get a decent looking weld with my level of experience first go. 

It's a 180Amp Gas/Gasless but not using the gas, using flux core wire and the polarity has been reversed.


Hope that makes sence, as I said, not really savvy with it just yet.

Cheers,


Sully


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## yardy (21/2/09)

Sully said:


> We spent hours mucking around with it different speeds and amps and couldnt get a decent weld. Basically welding on 1 or 4 was the same, no mound and very flat welds on every setting. I am not that savvy with the technical side of welding but it was shit, kept blowing holes and couldn't get a fluid weld happening no matter what we tried. I used my mates welder and could get a decent looking weld with my level of experience first go.
> 
> It's a 180Amp Gas/Gasless but not using the gas, using flux core wire and the polarity has been reversed.
> 
> ...



Sully,

just sounds like it's running very _hot_ on light material, you're giving yourself an uppercut using that bloody gasless wire as well. 

what thickness steel were you welding on ? hope it's not galv  

pm me if you like, might be able to help you out with a couple of tips

cheers
Yard

sorry for the :icon_offtopic: btw..


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## chappo1970 (23/2/09)

yardy said:


> just sounds like it's running very _hot_ on light material, you're giving yourself an uppercut using that bloody gasless wire as well.



Got to agree with yardy. Flux core = not good for ya health = splatters = ugly welds = lots of grinding = not so good final product IMHO.
CO2 and Argon gas cyclinders, the throw away variety, from Trades Tools etc aren't overly expensive but you will end up with a better job.

A+ to yardy for helping.


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## litre_o_cola (23/2/09)

Sully said:


> We spent hours mucking around with it different speeds and amps and couldnt get a decent weld. Basically welding on 1 or 4 was the same, no mound and very flat welds on every setting. I am not that savvy with the technical side of welding but it was shit, kept blowing holes and couldn't get a fluid weld happening no matter what we tried. I used my mates welder and could get a decent looking weld with my level of experience first go.
> 
> It's a 180Amp Gas/Gasless but not using the gas, using flux core wire and the polarity has been reversed.
> 
> ...



When setting my gasless up I found that the wire feed rollers weren't at the correct tension and same with the spool tensioner, once I set that up fine changing wire speed and power to the bastard actually made a difference after getting the shits with it for a couple of hours.


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## seravitae (23/2/09)

Anyone done brass to stainless welding? I attempted to install a brass threaded rod thru the side of my mash tun in order to fit a drain tap last week, and even with a silicone gasket when it is fully filled there is a very slow leak (drip in 10 seconds?). I think we didnt flatten the side enough when drilling, so the hole is probably very slightly oval shaped. I am thinking of taking it to some welders to see if they can permanently seal it in with TIG welding. 

Any ideas if i should do this or is there some other way?


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## razz (23/2/09)

Did you check it with hot water in the tun Sera? My boiler leaked a little but once I filled it with very hot water it was okay.


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## Gavo (23/2/09)

sera said:


> Anyone done brass to stainless welding?



You can only weld similar metals like stainless to mild steel ( not that you would want to do that as it defeats the purpose of using SS inthe first place). Brass and Stainless metals are too dissimilar and can't be welded successfully. braizing or silver soldering would be the better solution, or use a weldless fitting solution.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## seravitae (23/2/09)

Hot water may temporarily fix it due to thermal expansion of the materials but im not sure i'd be satisfied with that being a permanent solution. With the amount of force I need to apply to get a decent seal, causes the silicone gasket to 'run away' from the gap. I'm going to try adding a washer to extend the surface area around the silicone gasket, in hopes that it then can't run away, but other then that, i'm off to find a tig welding dude/dudette and get a stainless threaded rod. If i can get the stainless threaded rod with the same thread as the ball valve and stuff I bought, then i can get that welded in, and then just use the brass fittings/nuts I already bought.


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## rich_lamb (23/2/09)

Back on to TB's original assertion - I don't think anybody's given any good reasoning for NOT using (food grade) solder. I guess that means it's strong and reliable enough to use generally?

I agree with the notion that it's easy for us hackers who don't have the exxy welding gear and just wanna do one joint without mucking around too much.

But you do hear these myths that come from Trades (no offence guys) from time to time about solder joints being unreliable and such. I soldered a lot of the plumbing in my house before I aquired an oxy kit - in awkward locations sqeezed up under the house, and it's been perfectly reliable for nearly two decades.

Having said all that, there's nothing more gentle on your SS than a weldless fitting, and ANYBODY can do that.

While I'm here - hopefully not off topic - does anybody know how to braze brass fitting without burning the crap out of them?


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## chappo1970 (23/2/09)

gavo said:


> You can only weld similar metals like stainless to mild steel ( not that you would want to do that as it defeats the purpose of using SS inthe first place). Brass and Stainless metals are too dissimilar and can't be welded successfully. braizing or silver soldering would be the better solution, or use a weldless fitting solution.
> 
> Cheers
> Gavo.




Gavo has it all and is completely right IMO silver solder will do the job you want.



Bitter & Twisted said:


> ...I don't think anybody's given any good reasoning for NOT using (food grade) solder. I guess that means it's strong and reliable enough to use generally?



Nope it is perfectly fine to use "SILVER SOLDER" just like what the plumber's use. I have an issue with tinned solder and or electrical type solder which contains tin and lead (Pb). It's just plain stupid to use and if you do use it you are a deadset drop kick IMHO.



Bitter & Twisted said:


> I agree with the notion that it's easy for us hackers who don't have the exxy welding gear and just wanna do one joint without mucking around too much.


You can, it is easy as and most importantly affordable. A map gas setup is under $100 and will do the job superbly.



Bitter & Twisted said:


> But you do hear these myths that come from Trades (no offence guys) from time to time about solder joints being unreliable and such. I soldered a lot of the plumbing in my house before I aquired an oxy kit - in awkward locations sqeezed up under the house, and it's been perfectly reliable for nearly two decades.



 please tell me that the plumbing in your house wasn't soldered using tinned/lead solder?



Bitter & Twisted said:


> While I'm here - hopefully not off topic - does anybody know how to braze brass fitting without burning the crap out of them?



Slowly slowy catch a monkey. Gently heat the work piece up occasionally dabbing the filler rod on the work piece without the flame. Once the filler rod begins to melt you have reached the right temp to start brazing which means basically the same technique. Heat dab, heat dab, heat dab can be a little tricky but you will get it especially if you have brazed copper tubing before.


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## mika (23/2/09)

Brazing in the past, have found it easier to 'tin' (build the weld material up on) each piece to be joined and then sit the two together and just heat it up enough for the weld material to join and smooth out. Makes it a lot easier for fittings close to the bottom of kettles where access to the underside of the fitting on the inside is not so easy.


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## stew.w (23/2/09)

Soft solder (tin) which is used in plumbing doesn't have lead in it anymore, i find it reasonably easy to use but you just cant get it too hot or it will burn the tin out of it and then you will have a lot of trouble getting a seal. a few houses i have worked on have had every joint in the house soft soldered. 
Most plumbers use silver solder now because it is stronger and more reliable, but i hear in england they still soft solder all water pipework in houses. 
So as long as you use the right solder it should be fine, although i would still silver solder it.

Stew


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## chappo1970 (24/2/09)

muckanic said:


> And if someone really seeks bragging rights, could I suggest that welding two 50L kegs together to form a decent-sized boiler would be right up there on my list of impressive things to do!



Yep I agree you want to keep the parts you need to service eg Taps away from being hard wired in. However welding/soldering/brazing/fabricating parts is part and parcel of setting up a brewery. Fixing a threaded manifold so you can remove the tap and leave the pick up tube in place comes to mind... or then there's this [topic="27136"]type[/topic] of set up and or [topic="27353"]this
[/topic] and then there [topic="16391"]this[/topic] level (a personal favourite)

Don't get me wrong I get your point but there are some out here in the wilderness that love to tinker and fabricate and make stuff.


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## schooey (24/2/09)

muckanic said:


> And if someone really seeks bragging rights, could I suggest that welding two 50L kegs together to form a decent-sized boiler would be right up there on my list of impressive things to do!



Pfffft... Heaps of people here have done that. The ol' Boozeroony is one from memory...

Impresseive is cutting a coke can in half around the centre and tigging it back together..... without any distortion


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## chappo1970 (24/2/09)

schooey said:


> Impresseive is cutting a coke can in half around the centre and tigging it back together..... without any distortion



Now I would pay money to see that! B)


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## katzke (24/2/09)

Chappo said:


> please tell me that the plumbing in your house wasn't soldered using tinned/lead solder?



Well yes I am willing to wager they are. Except the one I had to fix after some contractor needing to borrow my bib left the hose attached and it froze. Not sure when plumbers stopped using lead solder but I am sure it was after my house was built. By the way it was built just after they stopped using lead in paint (1970 something).

Care to wager if any of your city water pipes are made with asbestos pipe? They used it over here so I bet they used it over there also. Sometime between the old wood ones and the new plastic ones. I met a guy that removed asbestos for a living. Asked him what he was going to do whaen they ran out of asbestos to remove. He just smiled and said start on fiberglass.


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## chappo1970 (24/2/09)

katzke said:


> Well yes I am willing to wager they are. Except the one I had to fix after some contractor needing to borrow my bib left the hose attached and it froze. Not sure when plumbers stopped using lead solder but I am sure it was after my house was built. By the way it was built just after they stopped using lead in paint (1970 something).
> 
> Care to wager if any of your city water pipes are made with asbestos pipe? They used it over here so I bet they used it over there also. Sometime between the old wood ones and the new plastic ones. I met a guy that removed asbestos for a living. Asked him what he was going to do whaen they ran out of asbestos to remove. He just smiled and said start on fiberglass.



I know your right katzke. I won't wager ya on that one mate. Over 23 years in commerical construction has opened my eye to fair amount of WTF is going on here stuff. If you really want to scare yourself you should check out your local hospitals, as in back of house and basements. Let's just say there's reasons why some don't come home from hospital.

There is a particular hospital that still stores radioactive materials from the nuclear tests conducted in 1950's at Maralinga (doesn't look right but you know the name) in a bunker that is surrounded by 2m thick concrete walls, floors and ceilings. It started leaking 5 years ago and it still isn't fixed!

Anyway I guess my point was to avoid using leaded solder. We are probably exposed enough to it without putting it your loving hand crafted beer IMO!


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## katzke (24/2/09)

Chappo said:


> Anyway I guess my point was to avoid using leaded solder. We are probably exposed enough to it without putting it your loving hand crafted beer IMO!



Yep no need to use any solder on pipes that you are not 100% sure is safe. I still have a lifetime supply of lead solder from what I have picked up over the years and use it for suitable things where the lead will not harm anything. It is still available in the store if I remember correctly.

As to the subject of the thread. I think braising is suitable for some applications around the brewery. I have a nice copper brew spoon that I made up and used lead free plumbers solder to put it together. Still have a finishing touch to put on it but have not decided yet how to finish. I think any fitting for a valve on a brew kettle should be welded or weldless. The thought of knocking off a fitting holding back all that boiling wort that was just braised on is not comforting.


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## Tony (24/2/09)

I have a soldered 90 deg fitting (silver soldered) and i have discovered its leaking on the weekend.

Going to chop it off and try and bend the tube around somehow to have it weldless.

Things like this i would recomend avoiding weld or solder joints.

cheers


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## rich_lamb (24/2/09)

Chappo said:


> please tell me that the plumbing in your house wasn't soldered using tinned/lead solder?



No, I'm not quite that stupid. It was most certainly lead free. Can't vouch for the silver content though.
Much better than the old corroded steel pipes with what looked like hession as gasketing - talk about primitive.




Chappo said:


> Slowly slowy catch a monkey. Gently heat the work piece up occasionally dabbing the filler rod on the work piece without the flame. Once the filler rod begins to melt you have reached the right temp to start brazing which means basically the same technique. Heat dab, heat dab, heat dab can be a little tricky but you will get it especially if you have brazed copper tubing before.



Cheers, thanks for the tip


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