# Brew Always Tastes Like Homebrew



## Liam dee

Hey guys,

I have brewed a few brews now.

European lager (coopers) - quite nice, esspecially around the 2 month mark
Ceveza (coopers) - Nice at first, got sick of it later, bit sweet
Draught (Thomas Coopers + can of malt) - getting better, but a bit flat - still had the taste
Canadian blonde (coopers) - much the same as Ceveza but with more bitter finish

Just layed down:
Pilsner (Thomas coopers) Used 500g Light dry Malt + 350g Dextrose. - waiting for results.

Now to the question (sort of a double banger)

1. My brew always has a "homebrew" finish. Its always sweetish, and I always used the spec ingrediance. I think about a few beers I enjoy, for instance: Tooheys New, and Carlton dry: If I was to drink those 2 one after the other, I would'nt sit back and go, "yep, they used the same brewing process".

How ever, when I have ANY of my homebrew after each other, for instance a Draught and a Ceveza, sure they taste completely different, but in that second after swallowing (and until the next mouthful) I just taste homebrew.

My next brew, Im going to try a tooheys whitestag (any suggestions would be great too.) This will include the addition of the dry enzyme. If any of you know, if this takes the "homebrew" sweetish finish off, let me know. Otherwise I will post my conclusions.

Its a long post, and the questions may be hard to find but any help will be greatly appreciated.

Just to reitterate the questions:
1. How do I get rid of the "homebrew" sweetish taste
2. How do I make a Whitestag Immitation (now that tooheys lowered the content to 4.4%)

Cheers and good beers


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## boobiedazzler

1. More hops
2. Use better yeast
2. Lower fermentation temperature
3. Use less (or no) sugar
4. Bottle Condition for 3 months


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## Cocko

+1 Boobiedazzler's points

Also,

Look into Partials, heaps of info on this site. Basically using a bit of grain to help with flavour!

But adding hops to a Kit will do a lot for your beer and is a simple addition to your process!

:icon_cheers:


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## seemax

Kits tend to have that twang... usually due to the kit yeast fermented at undesirable (and fluctuating) temperatures.

Most crappy aussie beer (tooheys new, VB, etc) are fermented with lager yeasts creating that dry crisp finish.

For that you'll need a decent yeast and something to keep it at 10C!


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## bconnery

boobiedazzler said:


> 1. More hops
> 2. Use better yeast
> 2. Lower fermentation temperature
> 3. Use less (or no) sugar
> 4. Bottle Condition for 3 months



There's some excellent advice here that I think gets to the heart of your issue, but I'd expand / disagree on a couple of points. 

1. Yes. But this will help with the initial flavour, it won't necessarily remove the 'homebrew' taste. 
2. Yes. I assume from your post you are using whatever comes with the kit, which can be hit or miss. Fine if you've gotten a kit that does have a good yeast, and you ferment at the right temperature range. 
2. (again ...) Lower fermentation temperature. Yes, and yes again. OP you didn't say what your temps were like but you are doing mostly lager type kits which will benefit from lower and slower fermentation. 
3. Actually sugar will help dry out your beers, adding alcohol but also helping to bring down the FG a little from the normally higher levels kits can give. 
4. Ideally perhaps but bottle conditioning will only smooth out some edges. If faults are a part of the base beer bottle aging isn't necessarily going to fix them. Won't hurt in the case of what it sounds like is happening for you. 

Of course it isn't really clear what you mean by a homebrew taste but in my opinion the classic "homebrew" taste generally comes from a number of factors. I found that kits do tend to finish higher at times, probably to do with the method of their preparation, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's also the amount of yeast that is sometimes thrown at them, as kit yeasts can be smaller in size. 
Temperature plays a big part. That slightly fruity homebrew aspect could easily be a result of higher temps, especially if you are doing lager kits, warm, with an ale yeast, and then wanting something like tooheys. 

Can't help on the whitestag though...


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## Screwtop

boobiedazzler said:


> 3. Use less (or no) sugar



:blink: 



Cocko said:


> +1 Boobiedazzler's points



:blink: 


Lucky for you an experienced brewer quotes:


bconnery said:


> 3. Actually sugar will help dry out your beers, adding alcohol but also helping to bring down the FG a little from the normally higher levels kits can give.


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## michaelcocks

Common theme here:
coopers ... Now don't get me wrong the coopers kits are Mongst the better ones... But you cannot get. Fresh grai. TAte from any kit brew ... You are alwYs tasting isohop !!!
They can produce a good beer if you replace the yeast and add some steeping grains 

If you have to kit brew try one of the esb kits or the country bread wetpAks with some reL grIn steeped
you Re also probably uSing the coopers kit yeast... Change this ... If you have to use dry yeast use safale or nottinghAm
as others have noted watch your temperature and cleanliness
even better ( As it sounds like you are still a way of all grain) go try one of the fresh wort kits

keep at it ... You'll get there

btw the coopers malt extract (unhopped) makes an excellent base for all beers just try to get off the prehopped kits if you can and deffinatley stY away from the kit yeasts...as farad temp goes you should be able to find somewhere around 18c in your house at tuis time of year ... perfect for most ales..


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## boobiedazzler

OK smartass. Brew me a beer with one can of malt, 1kg sugar and 7 grams of generic yeast at 28 degrees, without adding any hops or spec grain and tell me its wonderful. 

That shouldnt be a problem with all of your experience.


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## Oatlands Brewer

I my humble opinion your better off to step up to extract/partial brewing. cause Kit Twang will allways be kit twang.
Its a lot more satisfiying than kits and a much better product.

As has been said above fermentation temps make a huge difference to my brews i keep all my ales under 18/19 now and lagers at 10.

the other thing i found inproved my beers was not to be too keen to bottle, i wait until i hit a fg then leave it a few more days then cold condition it at 2/3 deg for another week


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## manticle

@boobiedazzler:

Settle down chief.

Not sure if you're referring to screwtop or bconnery (both experienced brewers) with the smartass comment but if you read between the lines - there was a basic agreement from bconnery with some qualifiers which were well explained.

Maybe Screwy explained with the aid of emoticons but the dogmatic malt purist route with extracts and kits can be misguided. Yes malt is great in a beer, what beer should be/is made from etc etc etc BUT - sugar used judiciously in certain styles (whether kit, extract or AG) can be a valuable ingredient. Extract beers in particular can struggle to attenuate properly and can be a bit cloying sweet. Sugar ( a bit, not a tonne) CAN help make things a little more balanced, all other things being equal. It's not a dirty ingredient in beer as so many people seem to suggest.

No-one said anything about brewing beer at 28 degrees. Also no-one suggested using 7 grams of kit yeast was a good idea. Bconnery expanded on your point by suggesting you use a better yeast but use it properly. Kit yeast is notoriously a bit more resistant to varied ferment conditions than some of the better dried yeasts so if you ARE going to brew at 28 you MIGHT be better brewing with coopers kit than with US05 etc etc. I think the basic point was - treat your yeast properly.

@ oatlands: People talk about kit twang and suggest it might be isohop. I'm not sure as I've found something I don't like with a lot of extract brews (mainly a one dimensionality and often an underattenuated sweetness that together screams extract at me). I've had a few good beers recently (both extract and kit) that tell me both can be done very well (and these beers were pale and lowly [if at all] hopped so no room for hiding behind the cheaty things). I think a good AG beer is the best there is but a good kit beer can still crap on an average AG beer. Good fermentation and yeast treatment is the key first and foremost. Everything else is just tweaking.


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## Oatlands Brewer

Awwwwww....Mant i wanna see Screwy arc up like a roman candle.....havent seen a decent fight on here for a while..... :blink: h34r:


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## manticle

I hate you


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## manticle

You shagged my dog


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## manticle

And forgot to leave a tip


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## Oatlands Brewer

Yeah but your dog liked it........


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## Oatlands Brewer

and you brew at 28deg...


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## manticle

I brew at whatever temp I like because I'm toughbrewer and my dog ate your cat anyway.




Sorry for OT.

I love eveybody and sugar is ok in beer if you know why you're adding it.


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## ballzac

We have to keep in mind what beers Liam Dee likes, because ultimately he is trying to brew a beer to suit his own taste.



> Tooheys New, and Carlton dry



I think it would be difficult to emulate one of these brews _without_ adding dextrose. These are lagers and as previously mentioned, a good lager yeast fermented at ~10 degrees and then cold conditioned at fridge temp or lower is ideal. However, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet that a neutral ale yeast can be used to good effect at lowish temperatures ~16C. US05 would probably be a good one to use. 

No idea what kit yeasts are like these days as it's been years since I've used one, but buying yeast separately you know exactly what you're getting and what properties it will have. A lot of kits don't cost much more than a good yeast, so if they come with yeast included, it is unlikely to be top quality.

Someone mentioned isohop...I was under the impression that the megaswill breweries use isohop anyway, so I can't see how that would be the source of twang.

I remember reading somewhere (maybe John Palmer or something?) that extract twang is often from stale extract. Obviously wort (extract is just dehydrated wort) doesn't keep as well as finished beer, and I certainly find it plausible that using old extract could produce inferior beer.


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## Cocko

Screwtop said:


> :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> :blink:
> 
> 
> Lucky for you an experienced brewer quotes:




:blink:


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## Nick JD

Liam dee said:


> I just taste homebrew.



Here's my take for better or worse. Let's start with an analogy: why doesn't my Nescafe Blend 43 taste like the Flat Whites at my local Italian Cafe? 

They use real beans, freshly ground. You use beans that were ground, made into coffee and then evaporated and put in a can. 

They use steam heated milk and very little water. You use lots of water and only a little bit of milk.

Making beer from stuff in cans is not making beer, it's making _"homebrew". _The very very best brewer's job if challenged to make the best K&K beer he can will alwas be an exercise in _hiding_ those homebrew flavours. It can be done, sort of - it's more difficult than making _real _beer.

See, to make real beer - just like making real coffee - you have to have the ingredients that real beer is made from. Surprisingly, you can make a real mess of making real beer and still make something that tastes better than K&K. 

Try your hands at a small AG brew - 3kg of grain, 30g of PoR hops, S189 yeast and some cheap gear _will _make Carlton. It's easy, seriously - and when you are drinking your delicious Carlton Clone the first thing that will enter you mind will be, "Shit, I can make _any _beer I damn well want now".


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## chappo1970

boobiedazzler said:


> OK smartass. Brew me a beer with one can of malt, 1kg sugar and 7 grams of generic yeast at 28 degrees, without adding any hops or spec grain and tell me its wonderful.
> 
> That shouldnt be a problem with all of your experience.



I'll bite... How dare you accuse Screwy and or bconnery as being smartasses. What you have demostrated to me is your complete lack of respect for very experienced brewers and regular contributors that have a genuine interest in sharing their experience and love of brewing. They always have the interest of the OP at the heart of their comments and contribution. Unlike yourself they both have runs on the board for their abilities and skills and don't need resort to your level of childishness to make a point. I am sick an tired of people like you running down bloody good brewers. The reason AHB is such a good resource is because of blokes like them and not because of assholes like you.

Unfortunately most of us are sick and tired of very bad or half assed advice. With your lack of respect and knowledge all you do degrade what is/was a great forum.

As for your childish and assinine dare? What I would like to see is if _*you*_ could make those ingredients into beer. Obviously the answer will be no. What you have done is completely missed the point as echoed my Manticle. By the way I would bet my entire brewery that both could make a decent beer over and above yours hands down.

Now I know both Screwy and 007 very well. I know their beers, their recipes and value the experience they bring. Unlike yourself who I see nothing of any worth. I highly respect both of them and often turn to both those guys for their advice and experience which they give freely to those willing to listen.

Son I suggest you suck your head in, delete that stupid post or apologise?

Sick and tired of the bullshit.

Chappo

Edit: I believe ben's response has covered it all OP.


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## Nick JD

Screwtop said:


> :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> :blink:
> 
> 
> Lucky for you an experienced brewer quotes:



I think you'll find that this was what started it, Chappo. Not the best way to help or correct someone's lack of experience, experienced or not. 

I fully agree that the wealth of experience here is a great asset ... but it would also be good if the Gods Of Brewing sometimes were a little less malicious and striking with their putdowns. 

Just because someone's experienced doesn't mean they can't be an asshole. If I listened everytime someone told me I didn't know how to make beer I'd start to believe them.


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## Murcluf

boobiedazzler said:


> OK smartass. Brew me a beer with one can of malt, 1kg sugar and 7 grams of generic yeast at 28 degrees, without adding any hops or spec grain and tell me its wonderful.
> 
> That shouldnt be a problem with all of your experience.



Obviously you have never tired one of GMK's Kit and Kilo award winning marvels, :icon_drool2: you'll never look at K&K in the same way ever again!!!

All stirring aside it is quite possible to make a very good K&K beer and I don't think it is all about what you chuck in the fermenter but more about how you treat what you have put in the fermenter. things let sanitisation, fermentation temps, oxidation, storage, handling of the beer, water & yeast quaility etc. 

I do know a couple of K&Ker's who brews, I'm more then happy shove the glass forward and say yes please :icon_cheers:


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## chappo1970

Nick JD said:


> I think you'll find that this was what started it, Chappo. Not the best way to help or correct someone's lack of experience, experienced or not.
> 
> I fully agree that the wealth of experience here is a great asset ... but it would also be good if the Gods Of Brewing sometimes were a little less malicious and striking with their putdowns.
> 
> Just because someone's experienced doesn't mean they can't be an asshole. If I listened everytime someone told me I didn't know how to make beer I'd start to believe them.



Disagree Nick. He qualifies his response by reiterating Ben's (bconnery) tomes of wisdom. I took it more to put emphasis on the misinformation being banned as fact. I can however see how you and the other fella could have taken it that way. But I also know Screwy is a top bloke and is also a bit of an Aussie larickin at heart. Sometimes the written word or a stoopid blinking icon doesn't translate that effectively. What I took offence to was the bullshit dare in such a childish asinine manner. Surely we are above that here?

Sugar as an adjunct is perfectly acceptable in certain styles. What drives that twang IMO is poor yeast management, cleaning regime and the isohops used in cans of goop and too much sugar. It ain't the sugar generally.

What Ben said is completely correct, shit on a stick, I add table sugar to my AG Aussie Lager for that exact reason. Without it, it really misses the mark IMO, and I cannot achieve the flavour profile and mouthfeel without doing so. Sugar does have a place in everyones brewing armourary IMO and shouldn't be viewed as unacceptable brewing adjunct/practice. Like all things in measured quantities it does a great job.

Nick if your ever in Brisvegas I would be honoured to share a few beers for the critique. After then we can lable each other whatever but until then prost and good health :icon_cheers: .

I have had the pleasure of many a good kit and kilo, so before we wheel out the brewing god/AG vs K&Kers crap wagon my comments are purely on the comment that sugar = shit beer. It's wrong full stop.


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## Rod

All of the above will help ,  

but if the brew is still too sweet for you 

add enzyme 

available from your LHBS

enzyme acts as a catalyst with yeast and is used to make dry beer and ferments more of the "sugars" out and gives a lower FG


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## Nick JD

Chappo said:


> ... my comments are purely on the comment that sugar = shit beer. It's wrong full stop.



Very true. I loves me some sugar in beer. 

Recently I made a 5%, "AG" 20L brew with 1.5kg of sugar in it and there was zero twang. It was a great drop - surprised the hell outa me.

My money's on isohop and warm ferment being most responsible for that homebrew taste. Lately I've been going down the slippery road of nitrogen and yeast metabolism and my brain needs a wheel alignment. 

I don't think < 20% sugar in beer will ever make it taste bad - maybe not-to-style, but not bad.

I'd like to come up to Brissy sometime and taste other's beer and get some critiques on mine...


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## ballzac

Nick JD said:


> Here's my take for better or worse. Let's start with an analogy: why doesn't my Nescafe Blend 43 taste like the Flat Whites at my local Italian Cafe?
> 
> They use real beans, freshly ground. You use beans that were ground, made into coffee and then evaporated and put in a can.
> 
> They use steam heated milk and very little water. You use lots of water and only a little bit of milk.
> 
> Making beer from stuff in cans is not making beer, it's making _"homebrew". _The very very best brewer's job if challenged to make the best K&K beer he can will alwas be an exercise in _hiding_ those homebrew flavours. It can be done, sort of - it's more difficult than making _real _beer.
> 
> See, to make real beer - just like making real coffee - you have to have the ingredients that real beer is made from. Surprisingly, you can make a real mess of making real beer and still make something that tastes better than K&K.
> 
> Try your hands at a small AG brew - 3kg of grain, 30g of PoR hops, S189 yeast and some cheap gear _will _make Carlton. It's easy, seriously - and when you are drinking your delicious Carlton Clone the first thing that will enter you mind will be, "Shit, I can make _any _beer I damn well want now".


I would agree on a lot of this, but to produce the type of clear, dry lager that the OP wants may not be quite that easy. We're talking probably adding flaked rice, but this may not quite get the effect he is after, and he might have more luck with cooking the rice and doing a mixed mash. It all starts to get pretty complicated very quickly.

My suggestion would be to simply get a can of fresh unhopped pale malt extract, a kilo of dextrose, an ounce or two of POR, a sachet of saflager (to ferment at 10C) or safale US05 (to ferment at 16C). Four weeks cold conditioning. I reckon a pretty decent dry pale 'lager' can be produced this way. Baby steps 

________________________________________________________________________________
____________


Also, could people specify what sort of sugar they are referring to? Sugar is a catch all term that covers all of the simple carbohydrates - fermentable and otherwise - that we use in brewing. In some peoples' posts it sound like they're talking about sucrose, in others it sounds like dextrose. It's really quite ambiguous. You could just as easily be talking about lactose or maltodextrin...or maltose for that matter.

For the record, I would use only dextrose in addition to the malt in this type of brew. Sucrose is fine to boost alcohol content in a big beer like a tripel, but is going to give you even more of that 'twang' in a pale, dry lager.


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## Nick JD

ballzac said:


> Baby steps



Horse hockey! Deep end. Jump right in.


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## scotteth

There's definitely some good advice above which should all be followed. Finishing hops may help disguise some of the off flavours if your not using these already. I'd steer clear of the dry enzyme - In my opinion its likely to strip out any flavour thats not "kit twang" and leave a pretty awful beer. Maybe do a search for the fake lager recipes in the K&K threads. I think US05 and lower temps could get you closer to something you'll enjoy, and of course check the used by date on the kits, i think they are usually 2 years from manufacture?


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## chappo1970

Nick JD said:


> I'd like to come up to Brissy sometime and taste other's beer and get some critiques on mine...



Nick my door is always wide open to brewers and as demostrated by this weekends brew day for CM2. I am happy to host such things for those brewers, and your good self, that extend themselves to this forum. I would think it plain rude now if you didn't drop in for a g'day :icon_cheers: . As for the critique... well that's free service :beerbang:


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## Screwtop

Liam dee said:


> 1. My brew always has a "homebrew" finish. Its always sweetish, and I always used the spec ingrediance. I think about a few beers I enjoy, for instance: Tooheys New, and Carlton dry: If I was to drink those 2 one after the other, I would'nt sit back and go, "yep, they used the same brewing process".
> 
> How ever, when I have ANY of my homebrew after each other, for instance a Draught and a Ceveza, sure they taste completely different, but in that second after swallowing (and until the next mouthful) I just taste homebrew.
> 
> My next brew, Im going to try a tooheys whitestag (any suggestions would be great too.) This will include the addition of the dry enzyme. If any of you know, if this takes the "homebrew" sweetish finish off, let me know. Otherwise I will post my conclusions.
> 
> Its a long post, and the questions may be hard to find but any help will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Just to reitterate the questions:
> 1. How do I get rid of the "homebrew" sweetish taste



Time I chimed in then.

HAve a read of the OP. 
This guy joined last April 

Twang is not inherent in kit beers, and it can be eliminated. I know because I have made some good kit beers, never what I would class as fantastic but have had kit beers made by other brewers that were fantastic. 




boobiedazzler said:


> 3. Use less (or no) sugar



This is not good advice to give a new brewer, sugar does not cause a sweetish taste. Sugar in all of its forms including table sugar, is used in brewing beer. Malt extracts produce wort that is less fermentable and sugar actually helps to increase attenuation and result in a beer that is less sweet. 





Cocko said:


> +1 Boobiedazzler's points
> 
> Also,
> 
> Look into Partials, heaps of info on this site. Basically using a bit of grain to help with flavour!
> 
> But adding hops to a Kit will do a lot for your beer and is a simple addition to your process!
> 
> :icon_cheers:



You agreed with the bad advice but gave some good advice. Where does that leave our newb brewer?

This stuff stays here forever, newbs in the future will search and find advice that is not good/correct. Just plain pisses me off!!

Jump up and down and beat your chests, I don't give a shit!

Screwy


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## Screwtop

Chappo said:


> As for the critique... well that's free service :beerbang:




Unless they beat us in the SOO, then it's your hourly rate, right :lol:

Screwy


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## chappo1970

Screwtop said:


> Unless they beat us in the SOO, then it's your hourly rate, right :lol:
> 
> Screwy




 :lol:


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## Liam dee

So... This got out of hand quick... haha

OK... You want more info:

My fermenter is currently in the laundry sitting at approximately 20*C fairly consistantly.

My take on my favorite beers:

Carlton dry - easy drinking in any weather, not exactly dry finish in comparison to others, tasty, 10x better then TED's, sweetish finish, cannot drink carton after carton.
Tooheys whitestag - Easy drinking in any weather, dry finish, low carb = non bloating, good during meal, very tasty, classic aussi beer taste, without tasting cheap.
Stella - Beautiful beer, sort of a extra light fruity finish, makes me aggressive and unreasonable = must avoid.
James boags Premium - Beautiful beer, classically lager, aromatic, 5% which is hard to find now days, nicer colder weather beer, EXPENCIVE!
Little creatures - Classical australian boutique beer, noticable by its fruityness throughout the range. Rarely drink it, but is good comparison of what id call extra fruity beer, extremely aromatic

Now... I went down to the LHBS today and stated my case to the dude there. He said to try adding hops, and using a different yeast. He said the next step is, waiting till the brew stops bubbling alot, and switching it to another fermenter. This is because the dead yeast leaves alot of flavours. He said to limit temp fluctuation, and that dry enzyme should help to get rid of the sweetish homebrew taste im refuring to.

"homebrew" taste: noun, To start with a bitter taste for roughly .25 of a second and then turn sweet almost immediatly, leaving no taste of what the actual style of the brew was, but leaving with the strong memory of the fact that what you did just consume, was not a beer bought by the carton at a local bottle shop. A.K.A "twang"

All of these rough and undeveloped takes on beer come from a 22 Year old, who considers himself decent with beer for his age, but also thinks that Emu Export tastes ok warm, and ok ice cold, but extremely shite just chille

Try not to argue this time guys, lol cheers

- Liam


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## Liam dee

OH OH!!!!

I Forgot to add... My new brew:

Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
#11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
Dry Enzyme

- its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
I shall post results...
Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys


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## ballzac

Don't use POR for dry hopping. It's really only appropriate for bittering.

EDIT: IMHO


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## hamstringsally

Nick JD said:


> Here's my take for better or worse. Let's start with an analogy: why doesn't my Nescafe Blend 43 taste like the Flat Whites at my local Italian Cafe?
> 
> They use real beans, freshly ground. You use beans that were ground, made into coffee and then evaporated and put in a can.
> 
> They use steam heated milk and very little water. You use lots of water and only a little bit of milk.
> 
> Making beer from stuff in cans is not making beer, it's making _"homebrew". _The very very best brewer's job if challenged to make the best K&K beer he can will alwas be an exercise in _hiding_ those homebrew flavours. It can be done, sort of - it's more difficult than making _real _beer.
> 
> See, to make real beer - just like making real coffee - you have to have the ingredients that real beer is made from. Surprisingly, you can make a real mess of making real beer and still make something that tastes better than K&K.
> 
> Try your hands at a small AG brew - 3kg of grain, 30g of PoR hops, S189 yeast and some cheap gear _will _make Carlton. It's easy, seriously - and when you are drinking your delicious Carlton Clone the first thing that will enter you mind will be, "Shit, I can make _any _beer I damn well want now".




ive struggled for years fighting the can homebrew taste and have to say after going all grain in the last six months i couldnt agree with you more beer god and your coffee analogy. after getting your temp controls down for fermentation and smashing out a few all grains and having a little bit of understanding about what your doing and why not only is it more rewarding when you drink it but it really does taste amazing even if your mash temps are outor you get something wrong. i have learnt so much off everyone on this site and wouldnt be brewing good beer if i didnt ask questions here.

amin


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## bconnery

Liam dee said:


> So... This got out of hand quick... haha
> 
> OK... You want more info:
> 
> My fermenter is currently in the laundry sitting at approximately 20*C fairly consistantly.
> 
> My take on my favorite beers:
> 
> Carlton dry - easy drinking in any weather, not exactly dry finish in comparison to others, tasty, 10x better then TED's, sweetish finish, cannot drink carton after carton.
> Tooheys whitestag - Easy drinking in any weather, dry finish, low carb = non bloating, good during meal, very tasty, classic aussi beer taste, without tasting cheap.
> Stella - Beautiful beer, sort of a extra light fruity finish, makes me aggressive and unreasonable = must avoid.
> James boags Premium - Beautiful beer, classically lager, aromatic, 5% which is hard to find now days, nicer colder weather beer, EXPENCIVE!
> Little creatures - Classical australian boutique beer, noticable by its fruityness throughout the range. Rarely drink it, but is good comparison of what id call extra fruity beer, extremely aromatic
> 
> Now... I went down to the LHBS today and stated my case to the dude there. He said to try adding hops, and using a different yeast. He said the next step is, waiting till the brew stops bubbling alot, and switching it to another fermenter. This is because the dead yeast leaves alot of flavours. He said to limit temp fluctuation, and that dry enzyme should help to get rid of the sweetish homebrew taste im refuring to.
> 
> "homebrew" taste: noun, To start with a bitter taste for roughly .25 of a second and then turn sweet almost immediatly, leaving no taste of what the actual style of the brew was, but leaving with the strong memory of the fact that what you did just consume, was not a beer bought by the carton at a local bottle shop. A.K.A "twang"
> 
> All of these rough and undeveloped takes on beer come from a 22 Year old, who considers himself decent with beer for his age, but also thinks that Emu Export tastes ok warm, and ok ice cold, but extremely shite just chille
> 
> Try not to argue this time guys, lol cheers
> 
> - Liam



Alright, based on that post I'd say the first thing you want to get, before you consider heading towards extract or AG, is a fridge and temperature control so you can do lagers. With a fridge and a controller you can ferment at the 10-15 the lager yeasts want to be really ideal. 
I do agree that extract and AG will produce better beers, but if lagers are what you like a fridge is essential regardless of your brewing method. 

You clearly like the clean and crisp flavour in your beers. 
Little Creatures is a good example of an American Pale Ale, light malt but a strong fruity hop presence. You don't seem to mind it, but clearly your taste head towards more to the lager end... 

If you ferment with a proper lager yeast, at the right temp, with some lagering, and a lager kit, I think you'll get something closer to what you want.


----------



## ballzac

hamstringsally said:


> ive struggled for years fighting the can homebrew taste and have to say after going all grain in the last six months i couldnt agree with you more beer god and your coffee analogy. after getting your temp controls down for fermentation and smashing out a few all grains and having a little bit of understanding about what your doing and why not only is it more rewarding when you drink it but it really does taste amazing even if your mash temps are outor you get something wrong. i have learnt so much off everyone on this site and wouldnt be brewing good beer if i didnt ask questions here.
> 
> amin


I agree. I have never made a _bad_ beer using only grain. However, I think a _great_ beer can be made with extract, which is hard to do with kit tins. The OP does not want to get too complicated with things, and I think boiling a bit of hops in extract would be beneficial, without going to the effort of going AG. However, AG is definitely not difficult for those who want to put in the extra effort, and IMO is worth the extra effort.



bconnery said:


> With a fridge and a controller you can ferment at the 10-15 the lager yeasts want to be really ideal.


15 is a bit high for a lager yeast IMO. I wouldn't go above 12. I used to live in yapeen, near castlemaine. I brewed a couple of extract pilseners and just fermented them at ambient temperatures. The temperature of the wort would fluctuate between about 4C and 9C in winter. It took almost 3 months to completely ferment out, but was very clean and well attenuated after that. I was quite happy with the quality with no lagering period. So, although temperature control is important for lagers, I think it is more important to avoid going too high than avoiding going too low. It also depends how patient you are, and what ambient temperatures you achieve.

In suburban Melbourne, I have fermented lagers that fluctuate between about 8C and 12C, which ferment out after a month or so. Subsequently lagering at ~2C for 6-8 months has given me nice results. Definitely, if you were at around the 15C mark I would go for an ale yeast, but if the temp dropped much below that it might be difficult to get it going again.

It would be fallacious to assume that, at a given temperature, a lager yeast will be cleaner than an ale yeast. In fact, a lager yeast may produce MORE esters than an ale yeast if fermented at 15 or 16C. Lager yeast have a very clean profile only when fermented at the recommended temperatures.


----------



## tavas

Hi Liam

I found my brews improved in taste by soaking my fermenter in bleach solution for 24 hours after my last brew. I used to hot rinse it and clean it with a cloth to remove gunk, then sanitise it with SMBS (prior to brewing) but noticed it always had an odour in the fermenter (like the last brew). After reading some posts on here, I soaked the fermenter with diluted bleach (unscented White King, about 100 mls per 25 litres), left it for a day and then hot rinsed it until the chlorine smell went. My fermenter was only 3 or 4 brews old at the time. i now use bleach to sanitise (always rinse it well before brewing) and smells have gone and taste has improved.

I also found that taste imprves a lot after 6 weeks, but depending on how much ready to drink I have, it sometimes doesn't last for 6 weeks  

I always live by the adage that no matter how bad my homebrew tastes, it will still taste better than VB.

Hope that helps.


----------



## bconnery

ballzac said:


> It would be fallacious to assume that, at a given temperature, a lager yeast will be cleaner than an ale yeast. In fact, a lager yeast may produce MORE esters than an ale yeast if fermented at 15 or 16C. Lager yeast have a very clean profile only when fermented at the recommended temperatures.



Yes. But 15C is within the recommended range for most dry lager yeasts. Yes at the top end, but within the recommended range. 
Yes, 9-12 is ideal but I included 15 as it is a temp that is often achievable in winter in many cases without temperature control. 

At no stage did I assume that a lager yeast would be cleaner than an ale yeast for a given temperature, which is why I have specifically lager temperatures in my post. 

I'm pretty familiar with the difference in ester production between lager and ale yeasts, and the subsequent effect on beer and requirements for diacetyl rests and/or lagering, which is what drove my advice for the OP.


----------



## paulwolf350

Liam dee said:


> OH OH!!!!
> 
> I Forgot to add... My new brew:
> 
> Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
> #11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
> Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
> Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
> Dry Enzyme
> 
> - its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
> I shall post results...
> Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys




Bet $100 it still tastes like homebrew, 1000s of us started in kits, but we all drink ag now...........why?



> Hi Liam
> 
> I found my brews improved in taste by soaking my fermenter in bleach solution for 24 hours after my last brew. I used to hot rinse it and clean it with a cloth to remove gunk, then sanitise it with SMBS (prior to brewing) but noticed it always had an odour in the fermenter (like the last brew). After reading some posts on here, I soaked the fermenter with diluted bleach (unscented White King, about 100 mls per 25 litres), left it for a day and then hot rinsed it until the chlorine smell went. My fermenter was only 3 or 4 brews old at the time. i now use bleach to sanitise (always rinse it well before brewing) and smells have gone and taste has improved.
> 
> I also found that taste imprves a lot after 6 weeks, but depending on how much ready to drink I have, it sometimes doesn't last for 6 weeks
> 
> I always live by the adage that no matter how bad my homebrew tastes, it will still taste better than VB.



minus eleventy billion, 

this is the bad advice screwy was talking about, and is the reason why people dont give advice on the forum, chlorine (bleach) should NEVER be used in brewing regardless of how good you think your beer tastes.

Paul


----------



## ballzac

bconnery said:


> Yes. But 15C is within the recommended range for most dry lager yeasts. Yes at the top end, but within the recommended range.
> Yes, 9-12 is ideal but I included 15 as it is a temp that is often achievable in winter in many cases without temperature control.
> 
> At no stage did I assume that a lager yeast would be cleaner than an ale yeast for a given temperature, which is why I have specifically lager temperatures in my post.
> 
> I'm pretty familiar with the difference in ester production between lager and ale yeasts, and the subsequent effect on beer and requirements for diacetyl rests and/or lagering, which is what drove my advice for the OP.


Yep, understood. Just wanted to make sure it was clear for the OP


----------



## ballzac

It's been a wile since I've had any beers such as the ones you want to emulate, but here's an idea for a recipe. A guide only, and others may have better ideas for the specific flavour you are after:

3kg pilsener (or other pale) liquid malt extract
1kg dextrose (glucose)
50g 9%AA POR pellets (boiled 60 min)
Fermentis Saflager S-23
Final volume 26L

This would fit in a 30L fermenter and should not blow out at low temperatures, but you'd want to be careful if the temp is higher. The recipe could easily be scaled down, but I wrote this based on the fact that it's exactly two 1.5 kilo tins of liquid, and 1 bag of dextrose.

If you don't have a large enough pot for the 30+ litres of pre-boil volume, you can just use half a can of the extract with 5 litres or so of water in, say, a 9L stock pot. The hop utilisation can be a bit lower though and you might want to up the hops slightly. It's not ideal, but I've done it in the past and had good results.

Good luck in all your efforts. Just remember, the more effort you put in, the better your beer will be. Have fun experimenting


----------



## manticle

paulwolf350 said:


> minus eleventy billion,
> 
> this is the bad advice screwy was talking about, and is the reason why people dont give advice on the forum, chlorine (bleach) should NEVER be used in brewing regardless of how good you think your beer tastes.
> 
> Paul




I'm a little confused. A lot of people use unscented bleach as a sanitiser (including myself and including Screwtop) - you just need to make super sure that it's either rinsed properly (I use boiling water followed by sodium met, followed by cold water followed by starsan) or supposedly used in no rinse proportions (which I don't trust but the guy from star san does).

Sorry if I've misunderstood what you meant.


----------



## ballzac

Oh, and do we know your location Liam? In Melbourne you could do a lager without proper temperature control at the moment. No idea about other states though. If you don't have a spare fridge to lager in, you can cold condition in the bottle _after_ carbonating. Fill up your fridge with as many bottles as you can fit. 4C isn't ideal, but will give you decent results.


----------



## michaelcocks

ballzac said:


> It's been a wile since I've had any beers such as the ones you want to emulate, but here's an idea for a recipe. A guide only, and others may have better ideas for the specific flavour you are after:
> 
> 3kg pilsener (or other pale) liquid malt extract
> 1kg dextrose (glucose)
> 50g 9%AA POR pellets (boiled 60 min)
> Fermentis Saflager S-23
> Final volume 26L
> 
> This would fit in a 30L fermenter and should not blow out at low temperatures, but you'd want to be careful if the temp is higher. The recipe could easily be scaled down, but I wrote this based on the fact that it's exactly two 1.5 kilo tins of liquid, and 1 bag of dextrose.
> 
> If you don't have a large enough pot for the 30+ litres of pre-boil volume, you can just use half a can of the extract with 5 litres or so of water in, say, a 9L stock pot. The hop utilisation can be a bit lower though and you might want to up the hops slightly. It's not ideal, but I've done it in the past and had good results.
> 
> Good luck in all your efforts. Just remember, the more effort you put in, the better your beer will be. Have fun
> experimenting



50gm of 9%aa por would be a heck of alot of ibu's and probably above the style that the op is shooting for
most of his named Aussie lagers would be around 25ibu wouldn't they ?


----------



## ballzac

Yeah, you're probably right  works out to about 40IBU. 30g then?


----------



## jakub76

Your new brew looks a heap better than a standard kit, I'm sure it'll be an improvement. See what an innocent question and a hilarious bitch fight can do. I'm not sure what starin that yeast is but I have read that S-189 is a very forgiving lager yeast that will tolerate higher temperatures. So if you haven't got temp control but really want to make a lager it could be a solution.
Best.


Liam dee said:


> OH OH!!!!
> 
> I Forgot to add... My new brew:
> 
> Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
> #11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
> Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
> Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
> Dry Enzyme
> 
> - its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
> I shall post results...
> Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys


----------



## boobiedazzler

Whoa up there, men/boys. 

This all started from my innocent and genuine 4-Point considerations to the OP. I gathered from the tone of his descriptors that he is a new brewer, into K&K, not so up to speed on the various sciences behind this brewing art of ours, and maybe wrongly, but maybe not, assumed he was using a buttload of white sugar. And, no offense to the OP, but he said that he wants to do a whitestag clone. 

All I did was throw forward a few points. The shit that has started, and in which I was vilified by Screwtop as a a brewing illiterate old bitch that knows **** all, was the comment on sugar. 

For the record it was "USE LESS (OR NO) SUGAR". Shoud I have elaborated on invert candi syrup being a key part of many belgians? Does the OP need to know about this in his early stages into the craft ? NO, because it would detract from the helpfulness that I was trying to impart. 

Quite simply, the comment on sugar was, and still is IMO, a valid point for his reference point. Maybe he will say 'oh, then I'll add more DME next time'. Later on he might wonder where that powdered malt comes from, and start to steep some crystal. Before you know it he'll be brewing AG with his learned considerations, and hopefully making award winning brews that will kick Chappo's ass. 

My only gripe was that Screwtop slapped my bitch face as being some sort of greenhorn because I dared suggest LESS sugar in the OP's brews. Sure we can argue a sophisticsted pallete sweetness being more apparent with malt than highly attenuated sugar, but look at the Whole picture. I included the facets of hopping to offest the sweet perception, the better yeast so not to impart undesirable hydroxyl compounds during the fermentation process - ditto for ferm temps, and rounded it out with the 'more time in the bottle' conditioning process. 

So I called Screwtop a smartass. On reflection, it was a bit rude. So for that I apologise. 

No idea why or how you thought that bconnery was targeted. Shivers, he mostly agreed with me, and kindly elaborated on most of my bullet points to the OP. 

At Chapo. I think you have really over-reacted, and I hope my comments above serve to explain where Im coming from.


----------



## Barley Belly

As wise sage once told me the three basic steps to homebrewing:-

1) Cleanliness

2) Temperature Control

3) Quality Ingredients

In that order
Without 1 and 2 forget 3


----------



## bconnery

paulwolf350 said:


> Bet $100 it still tastes like homebrew, 1000s of us started in kits, but we all drink ag now...........why?
> 
> 
> 
> minus eleventy billion,
> 
> this is the bad advice screwy was talking about, and is the reason why people dont give advice on the forum, chlorine (bleach) should NEVER be used in brewing regardless of how good you think your beer tastes.
> 
> Paul


I used diluted bleach as my sanitiser, with a little white vinegar, for a long time. This is a commonly used sanitiser. 
It can be no rinse provided the concentrations are all correct. It is all reliant on the % of sodium something in your bleach too from memory. 
There's a lot of information around about it, including from an interview on basic brewing radio where the founder of 5 Star Chemicals discusses its benefits and use in a homebrew situation. 
I'm aware that many people shudder at the idea of introducing bleach but in the parts per million being talked about it is safe if used correctly. 

I do think it's good advice to change sanitisers occasionally. Keeps the bugs on their toes...


----------



## bconnery

boobiedazzler said:


> Whoa up there, men/boys.
> 
> This all started from my innocent and genuine 4-Point considerations to the OP. I gathered from the tone of his descriptors that he is a new brewer, into K&K, not so up to speed on the various sciences behind this brewing art of ours, and maybe wrongly, but maybe not, assumed he was using a buttload of white sugar. And, no offense to the OP, but he said that he wants to do a whitestag clone.
> 
> All I did was throw forward a few points. The shit that has started, and in which I was vilified by Screwtop as a a brewing illiterate old bitch that knows **** all, was the comment on sugar.
> 
> For the record it was "USE LESS (OR NO) SUGAR". Shoud I have elaborated on invert candi syrup being a key part of many belgians? Does the OP need to know about this in his early stages into the craft ? NO, because it would detract from the helpfulness that I was trying to impart.
> 
> Quite simply, the comment on sugar was, and still is IMO, a valid point for his reference point. Maybe he will say 'oh, then I'll add more DME next time'. Later on he might wonder where that powdered malt comes from, and start to steep some crystal. Before you know it he'll be brewing AG with his learned considerations, and hopefully making award winning brews that will kick Chappo's ass.
> 
> My only gripe was that Screwtop slapped my bitch face as being some sort of greenhorn because I dared suggest LESS sugar in the OP's brews. Sure we can argue a sophisticsted pallete sweetness being more apparent with malt than highly attenuated sugar, but look at the Whole picture. I included the facets of hopping to offest the sweet perception, the better yeast so not to impart undesirable hydroxyl compounds during the fermentation process - ditto for ferm temps, and rounded it out with the 'more time in the bottle' conditioning process.


I still don't agree though. His main complaint was a homebrew taste, and a sweetness. If he is using some sugar then removing it and replacing it with DME, or grain, is going to increase that sweetness. 
He mentions a recipe with 500g malt and 350g sugar. Taking that as a baseline for the sort of recipes he is using then decreasing the sugar is only going to increase the perception of sweetness to me. 
Increasing the hops, especially if, as is likely not to be doing much in the way of bittering additions, isn't necessarily going to counteract that.


----------



## Oatlands Brewer

same thing here with the bleach

The other thing i do after ive cleaned my fermenters, in readyness for the next batch is after bleach cleaning i stand them in the direct sun...Im not sure if there is any merit to it but my wife suggested it and there is no bleach smell after.

once there dry i loosely srew the lids back on and there ready to go after a SMBS treatment just before brewing

Oh and by the way Liam, Manticle and I were just muckin around....sorry for hijackin your thread the other night...... :beer:


----------



## Verbyla

Just wondering about the unhopped cans of malt extract that people have suggested using. Do they have any spec grain in them or are they just the same as the dried malt extract?


----------



## Rod

Rod said:


> All of the above will help ,
> 
> but if the brew is still too sweet for you
> 
> add enzyme
> 
> available from your LHBS
> 
> enzyme acts as a catalyst with yeast and is used to make dry beer and ferments more of the "sugars" out and gives a lower FG



I posted this

but personally have only made one or two batches

I like my bear a bit sweeter and most beers ( stove top brews ) I make end up at 1012 FG 

I do not even like commercial dry beer , not that I buy much commercial beer no a days


----------



## Screwtop

manticle said:


> I'm a little confused. A lot of people use unscented bleach as a sanitiser (including myself and including Screwtop) - you just need to make super sure that it's either rinsed properly (I use boiling water followed by sodium met, followed by cold water followed by starsan) or supposedly used in no rinse proportions (which I don't trust but the guy from star san does).
> 
> Sorry if I've misunderstood what you meant.






bconnery said:


> I used diluted bleach as my sanitiser, with a little white vinegar, for a long time. This is a commonly used sanitiser.
> It can be no rinse provided the concentrations are all correct. It is all reliant on the % of sodium something in your bleach too from memory.
> There's a lot of information around about it, including from an interview on basic brewing radio where the founder of 5 Star Chemicals discusses its benefits and use in a homebrew situation.
> I'm aware that many people shudder at the idea of introducing bleach but in the parts per million being talked about it is safe if used correctly.
> 
> I do think it's good advice to change sanitisers occasionally. Keeps the bugs on their toes...




Bleach has been part of my sanitisation routine ever since experiencing a ropey bacillus infection about 2001. Have posted lots about this on AHB and elsewhere before today. No more comment as there has been enough waffle on this thread already, apologies to the OP.

Screwy


----------



## matt.barrenger

ballzac said:


> It's been a wile since I've had any beers such as the ones you want to emulate, but here's an idea for a recipe. A guide only, and others may have better ideas for the specific flavour you are after:
> 
> 3kg pilsener (or other pale) liquid malt extract
> 1kg dextrose (glucose)
> 50g 9%AA POR pellets (boiled 60 min)
> Fermentis Saflager S-23
> Final volume 26L
> 
> This would fit in a 30L fermenter and should not blow out at low temperatures, but you'd want to be careful if the temp is higher. The recipe could easily be scaled down, but I wrote this based on the fact that it's exactly two 1.5 kilo tins of liquid, and 1 bag of dextrose.
> 
> If you don't have a large enough pot for the 30+ litres of pre-boil volume, you can just use half a can of the extract with 5 litres or so of water in, say, a 9L stock pot. The hop utilisation can be a bit lower though and you might want to up the hops slightly. It's not ideal, but I've done it in the past and had good results.
> 
> Good luck in all your efforts. Just remember, the more effort you put in, the better your beer will be. Have fun experimenting



Hey Ballzac,

I am keen to try my first extract - have been doing full batch boil K&k's for about 2 years now, with fridge/temp controller.

This recipie seems like a great place for me to start.
I may try the 30 g of POR hops as suggested in another post.
A few questions I have:

1: Would Coopers light malt extract can be ok? 
2: What difference would you expect by using coopers light malt?


Cheers 

Beaker


----------



## ballzac

beaker said:


> Hey Ballzac,
> 
> I am keen to try my first extract - have been doing full batch boil K&k's for about 2 years now, with fridge/temp controller.
> 
> This recipie seems like a great place for me to start.
> I may try the 30 g of POR hops as suggested in another post.
> A few questions I have:
> 
> 1: Would Coopers light malt extract can be ok?
> 2: What difference would you expect by using coopers light malt?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Beaker


I'm not sure whether I've used the coopers one. Been a while since I've used extract. Most pale, unhopped, extracts are pretty similar. Sometimes the pilsener ones are a bit paler than others, but not always. It will be fine, but others who have used it might have more specific info on it.


----------



## Liam dee

Ok...

Thanks for all your help guys. A few key points:
I always keep my kit clean
I never use table sugar. If I ever use anything thats not a brew enhancer or wet malt, I use dextrose
I always use quality ingrediance (except for this brew which called for a coopers lager green can... see how that goes)

The amount of info has been overwhelming. So i just pick out what i understand and can use... The key points I have picked up from this site and the LHBS is:
(and correct me if im wrong)
*asside from the basics, keep your kit clean, never use caster sugar, things of that nature
*Keep temperature low and constant
*Use hops to get a better taste and aroma
*Switch fermenters when brew stops bubbling, dead yeast can add an undesirable flavour

There where another few key points... i think they where:
*use AG
*use AG
*Use AG

... but until i get some more expirience, ill keep using K&K... You guys are right, I'm very novice at this but I plan on getting better.
Thanks to all that helped. I shall post results of my whitestag copy.

One more thing... It seems a few of you that have posted, sound like you havent tryed a "tailor made" beer from a shop recently. I suggest you go out, and get even just one. The taste may be different, supprising, and give you something to aim towards. After all diversity wasnt just an old wooden ship. A few newish beers on the market I would recommend.

*Sail and anchor dry dock - W.A beer
*Coopers 62 Pilsner - Incredibly smooth
*stienlager Pure - N.Z beer, dunno what there doing there but pretty smooth, tasty little number

Cheers again guys.
- Liam


----------



## bconnery

Liam dee said:


> Ok...
> 
> Thanks for all your help guys. A few key points:
> I always keep my kit clean
> I never use table sugar. If I ever use anything thats not a brew enhancer or wet malt, I use dextrose
> I always use quality ingrediance (except for this brew which called for a coopers lager green can... see how that goes)
> 
> The amount of info has been overwhelming. So i just pick out what i understand and can use... The key points I have picked up from this site and the LHBS is:
> (and correct me if im wrong)
> *asside from the basics, keep your kit clean, never use caster sugar, things of that nature
> *Keep temperature low and constant
> *Use hops to get a better taste and aroma
> *Switch fermenters when brew stops bubbling, dead yeast can add an undesirable flavour
> 
> There where another few key points... i think they where:
> *use AG
> *use AG
> *Use AG
> 
> ... but until i get some more expirience, ill keep using K&K... You guys are right, I'm very novice at this but I plan on getting better.
> Thanks to all that helped. I shall post results of my whitestag copy.
> 
> One more thing... It seems a few of you that have posted, sound like you havent tryed a "tailor made" beer from a shop recently. I suggest you go out, and get even just one. The taste may be different, supprising, and give you something to aim towards. After all diversity wasnt just an old wooden ship. A few newish beers on the market I would recommend.
> 
> *Sail and anchor dry dock - W.A beer
> *Coopers 62 Pilsner - Incredibly smooth
> *stienlager Pure - N.Z beer, dunno what there doing there but pretty smooth, tasty little number
> 
> Cheers again guys.
> - Liam


Nothing wrong with table sugar. The idea that you should never use it is a bit of a homebrewing myth, probably driven by it generally associated with beers fermented at high temps with the wrong yeast. 

As for the AG thing, look it is great. It makes great beer, IF it is done right. You can make bad AG beer very easily. Good process will make good beer. I absolutely love AG but I made some of my best beers with extract, and some of them I still haven't managed to replicate properly with AG. 

This seems as good a time as any to post a link to my guide to extract brewing I posted a few years ago. It really is easy and a great way to make very good beers. 
I used this method for a number of years and I believe it works well.


----------



## Kevman

I think there is a difference when using kits on what style you are doing.

The lighter syles such as lagers and pale ales show up the imperfections in either brewing techniques or the kit a lot more than for some of the darker beers such as dark ales, porters or stouts.

I've found no reason to switch to all grain as I prefer the darker style of beers and ales. I do the odd lager but they don't seem to come out as good as my ales.

For you liam, it may pay to move to an all-grain setup, obviously dependent on cost, space and time, to get the taste you desire. For me, kits and bits suit my purpose as I don't have that "home brew" taste due to the beers that I make are a lot more malty and have numerous other flavours. I think its horses for courses.


----------



## TidalPete

No more advice or help from me on this forum anymore until things happen to bring this great forum back to the way it once was.
K&C brewers who can't see the benefits of stepping up to liquid malt & hops, to (Shudder) BIAB, to AG are deluding themselves.

TP


----------



## ballzac

Liam dee said:


> One more thing... It seems a few of you that have posted, sound like you havent tryed a "tailor made" beer from a shop recently. I suggest you go out, and get even just one. The taste may be different, supprising, and give you something to aim towards. After all diversity wasnt just an old wooden ship. A few newish beers on the market I would recommend.



I think most people here just don't like beers that have little flavour. A beer marketed as "extra dry" or what-not, is not likely to tickle the fancy of most people in the homebrewing community I would expect. After you have been brewing for a while, you will become more familiar with the ingredients involved and the different flavours that can be achieved and will probably begin to shy away from the more bland pale lagers.

I'm not meaning to be snobby about it. Everyone's entitled to enjoy whatever beer they like, and these pale lagers are undeniably well made. I buy "tailor made" beers on a regular basis. Last weekend I picked up a Lindeman's Framboise, a Chantillon Guauze, an Innis and Gunn triple aged beer, an Aecht Schlenkerla Rauchbier Urbock, and yes, a pale lager (DAB). The Chantillon was a bit full on for my taste, but had a beautiful parmesan flavour :lol:

If I enjoy a Steinlager pure more than I enjoyed any of those beers, I will eat my hat


----------



## bradsbrew

Liam dee said:


> The amount of info has been overwhelming. So i just pick out what i understand and can use... The key points I have picked up from this site and the LHBS is:
> *asside from the basics, keep your kit clean, *never use caster sugar *
> *Keep temperature *low and constant*
> *Use hops to get a better taste and aroma
> **Switch fermenters when brew stops bubbling, dead yeast can add an undesirable flavour
> *


IMO, I think you have mistook the information
*1.* White sugar, table sugar, castor sugar. Can be used with your kit in addition to some dry malt extract. If you are thinking your beers are turning out a bit sweet try adding *some* sugar. thing is sugar can be used.

*2. *Yes you need to keep the fermentation temp down but this is relative to the *style of beer* and *more importantly the yeast* that you are using. Also if you brew at the lower end say 17 for an ale yeast you can bring this up to 20/22 at the end of fermentation to help the yeast finish off. This is very brief on the subject of yeast/ferment/temp. Have a search if you are not sure on the info you read PM one a couple of the brewers such as screwy,Ross,Bconnery etc and they will put you in the right direction.

*3. DO NOT RELY ON THE BUBBLING.* TAKE HYDROMETER READINGS THEY ARE THE INDICATOR OF WETHER YOUR BEER IS FINISHED FERMENTING. IF YOU TAKE IT OFF THE YEAST TOO EARLY YOUR BEER MAY END UP SWEET :huh: OR BLOW THE BOTTLES UP. When it is finished fermenting you dont have to switch fermenters, in fact I never do that. But I do drop the temperature to about 4 for a few days sometimes longer.

Cheers Brad


----------



## bradsbrew

TidalPete said:


> No more advice or help from me on this forum anymore until things happen to bring this great forum back to the way it once was.
> K&C brewers who can't see the benefits of stepping up to liquid malt & hops, to (Shudder) BIAB, to AG are deluding themselves.
> 
> TP




C'mon Pete, He's already said he's getting his head around the important things first. No point going extract or AG if he doesnt understand yeast and ferment and ingredients.  

Did you put your Gstring on back to front again Mr grumpy  .

Brad


----------



## ballzac

bradsbrew said:


> IMO, I think you have mistook the information
> *1.* White sugar, table sugar, castor sugar. Can be used with your kit in addition to some dry malt extract. If you are thinking your beers are turning out a bit sweet try adding *some* sugar. thing is sugar can be used.


Just curious what the pros for using sucrose over dextrose are, apart from cost? I would be thinking that using sucrose would risk introducing unwanted flavours in a style that is so low in other flavours. Dextrose is highly fermentable, and seems like the most logical choice to me, unless cost is a serious issue.


----------



## kelbygreen

beaker I would also suggest try this one to.

25lt batch,
2.5kg LDME
700g dextrose
POR 23g @ 45 min
POR 14g @ 15 min

I used hop pellets but was told to use flowers as they are better but ross was sold out  (have 180g comming next week) also I used 2.75kg malt and .5 dex was a tad sweet why I changed the list a bit as should be more ballanced.

Your aim is around 1.048 OG and 26IBU. Got this off Tony and tried his aussie pale ale was like new but what it should be like . although he done AG version i was trying to make a extract one close but it was a tad sweet


----------



## matt.barrenger

kelbygreen said:


> beaker I would also suggest try this one to.
> 
> 25lt batch,
> 2.5kg LDME
> 700g dextrose
> POR 23g @ 45 min
> POR 14g @ 15 min
> 
> I used hop pellets but was told to use flowers as they are better but ross was sold out  (have 180g comming next week) also I used 2.75kg malt and .5 dex was a tad sweet why I changed the list a bit as should be more ballanced.
> 
> Your aim is around 1.048 OG and 26IBU. Got this off Tony and tried his aussie pale ale was like new but what it should be like  . although he done AG version i was trying to make a extract one close but it was a tad sweet




hey kelby green,

Many thanks - a few questions - if you use hop flowers do you have to vary the amount (weight) to use?

what % AA are the hops?

Cheers


----------



## matt.barrenger

beaker said:


> hey kelby green,
> 
> Many thanks - a few questions - if you use hop flowers do you have to vary the amount (weight) to use?
> 
> what % AA are the hops?
> 
> Cheers



................................and also

I forgot

the 45 mins - that means 45 minutes into a 60 minute boil add the hops? or does it mean boil the hops for 45 minutes?


----------



## felten

@ the OP, I was just listening to the CYBI belgian golden ale show and it mentions that you can actually do a mini mash with your extract and a pound or so of malt (or high enzyme malt like galaxy) and the enzymes in the malt will start to break down the sugars in the extract, just like a normal mash, resulting in a drier finish.

That recipe uses 3.8kg of light extract and 1.35kg of white sugar too btw.


----------



## jakub76

45 minute addition means boil for 45 so you'd add it 15 minutes into a 60 minute boil.


beaker said:


> ................................and also
> 
> I forgot
> 
> the 45 mins - that means 45 minutes into a 60 minute boil add the hops? or does it mean boil the hops for 45 minutes?


----------



## paulwolf350

manticle said:


> I'm a little confused. A lot of people use unscented bleach as a sanitiser (including myself and including Screwtop) - you just need to make super sure that it's either rinsed properly (I use boiling water followed by sodium met, followed by cold water followed by starsan) or supposedly used in no rinse proportions (which I don't trust but the guy from star san does).
> 
> Sorry if I've misunderstood what you meant.




Rito then Bleach away

i will keep my thoughts to myself
Paul


----------



## Kevman

TidalPete said:


> No more advice or help from me on this forum anymore until things happen to bring this great forum back to the way it once was.
> K&C brewers who can't see the benefits of stepping up to liquid malt & hops, to (Shudder) BIAB, to AG are deluding themselves.
> 
> TP



Just more home brew snobbery on this website.

Perhaps we don't actually want your advice which seems to be "move to AG". K&K/K&B *brewers* get this one forum called Kits and Extracts while the AG brewers have a few other forums (AG and Partials, Beginner Partials/AG) to talk about how good AG is.


----------



## bconnery

paulwolf350 said:


> Well if you are rinsing if off, I believe you are wasting your time using it. You could use it as a cleaner, but there are better cleaners around.
> If you are using it to sanitise, then rinsing it off, the items are no longer sanitised and you would be better off Just using hot water.
> Most of the beers, where the brewer used bleach, the taste comes out in the finished product
> 
> 
> Manticle, if you are rinsing the bleach off, then using starsan, why use the bleach at all? Starsan is a guaranteed sanitiser with a known kill rate it will do the job all on its own, with no bleach flavour inparted to the finished product.
> 
> Acidifying bleach to make a no rinse sanitiser is a no no, because the resultant gas coming off is "mustard gas" the one they use to KILL people, think of that when you are splashing your fermenter
> 
> Sorry if you guys think i am a nut, but a quality no rinse sanitiser is much better advice to a newb
> 
> Dumb the bleach mate your brewing will be better for it
> 
> Paul


The gas is only an issue if you mix the vinegar and the bleach directly, not if you dilute the bleach to the correct concentration first. The information I read warned against this and I followed it accordingly and am still alive. 
Again, there's a lot of information around about how to correctly do this. 

I agree that bleach followed by a rinse followed by starsan seems a waste. I use starsan myself now and have had no issues with it, but bleach CAN be used as a no rinse sanitiser if used correctly. 
If you don't want to then that's fine. 

If bleach is being tasted in the finished product then the brewer isn't using it correctly. 
I can honestly say that no judge, homebrewer or other taster of my beer ever commented on the bleach taste present in my beer.


----------



## paulwolf350

bconnery said:


> I can honestly say that no judge, homebrewer or other taster of my beer ever commented on the bleach taste present in my beer.




this is why I am supprised to see you guys promoting it. 




I will refrain from further commment

Paul


----------



## felten

Well according to Wikipedia(FWIW), bleach and hydrochloric acid will release chlorine gas (mustard gas is different); however bleach and acetic acid will release something else, scroll down to the reactions and bleaching section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite It also gives you an idea of what it breaks down into.

I'm also in the boat of having used acidified bleach with no problems, but only once or twice before upgrading to starsan. Each to his own I guess.


----------



## wynnum1

If the kit beer is too sweet add more water and more dextrose to get required alcohol content .3 extra litres of water can make a big difference to taste .Adding fresh hops also helps .Also brewing at cooler temperatures more yeast may be needed then is supplied with kit buy two cans and use both yeasts in first brew and use yeast from first brew to ferment second brew


----------



## manticle

Hi Paul,

The reason I use chlorine then rinse, then use boiling water then rinse, then use sodium met, then rinse THEN use starsan (no rinse) is because I had a spate of infections in Summer that was incredibly depressing.

I have also experienced chlorephenols in a beer which were horrible - hence the use of the boiling water and the sodium met (with added sanitising properties).

I have become paranoid about both bleach flavours AND infection so I do my utmost to reduce the chance of either. I do know, firsthand what you mean about the related flavours - just thought it was a bit strange to say that use of chlorine is bad advice when it seems quite commonly used - in both rinse and no rinse proportions. I myself wouldn't use the no rinse proportion but I'm not going to tell others they can't.

I'm not advising anyone to follow my nutso regime (cleaned first with sodium percarb and super hot water) unless they experience the very upsetting phenomenon of nursing several hard work AG brews to undrinkable infections. In most cases I would say a good clean with sodium percarb or similar and a no rinse should be enough. Hell even sodium met was fine when I used that exclusively. In my case I'd rather look like I'm wasting my time than throw out another 60+ litres of beer because it tastes like arse.

Apologies to the OP for the OT


----------



## matt.barrenger

beaker said:


> ................................and also
> 
> I forgot
> 
> the 45 mins - that means 45 minutes into a 60 minute boil add the hops? or does it mean boil the hops for 45 minutes?




LDME - is that light dried malt extract? I get confused between LME, LDME, DME !!!


----------



## manticle

Liquid malt extract (lme), light dried malt extract (ldme) and either dried malt extract or dark malt extract (DME - most often read and meant as dried malt extract). Dark dried malt extract maybe written as DDME.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=17 - some acronyms explained.


----------



## Screwtop

paulwolf350 said:


> Rito then Bleach away
> 
> i will keep my thoughts to myself
> Paul



OT: so as brief as possible. Most brewers are beasts of habit/ritual. I got an infection while using sanitiser and was told by a commercial brewer that some bugs will survive sanitisers but not bleach. No idea myself, took his word for it. He said bleach everything prior to use then rinse and then treat as you normally would with sanitiser, so I do. It's been successful so it has become ritual :lol: My tap water contains chloramine not chlorine rinsing with it is sterile as needs be prior to using no-rinse sanitiser.

We have no idea what is in your water Paul or what type and dosage of chlorine bleach you were using, each case is different. I say stick to your practice.......... it works for you, that's what matters. Only needs looking into if you have a problem.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## roverfj1200

I have loved reading this thread.... Keep up the good work :lol: :lol:


----------



## Liam dee

Quote
"OH OH!!!!

I Forgot to add... My new brew:

Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
#11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
Dry Enzyme

- its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
I shall post results...
Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys "

Well, I cracked it today... its just over 2 weeks through, and it was a first for everything.

*first time using hops and different yeast
*First time bulk priming

1. Brew tastes beautiful. The hops took away that sweet aftertaste just nicely, and it finishes dry due to the dry enzyme
2. Sheet i was given said to add 210g of dextrose to 23 L. I feel this was wrong as it is over carbonated.

But just to reiterate: Brew is deliciouse... I wont go back to no hops now!


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

Very good to hear.

The step up in taste to a good extract over kit+hops is even greater!

Once you start you start bittering your beers with difference style of hops and different boil periods you will realise a whole new world! Just throwing it out there as you've just started the journey!


----------



## juzz1981

+1 for bleach use, no problem here as long as you rinse


----------



## ballzac

Liam dee said:


> 2. Sheet i was given said to add 210g of dextrose to 23 L. I feel this was wrong as it is over carbonated.


The amount of CO2 already in solution is dependent on temperature, so if your brew was cold when you bottled, it will give you higher carbonation than if it was hot. 210g is still a fair bit though.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html

EDIT: Oh, and congrats


----------



## ballzac

From the table I linked to:

I will assume you bottled at about 20C, as this is what you fermented at, this is 68F. You used 210g=7.4Oz for a 23L batch (equivalent to 6.1 Oz for a 19L (5USG) brew). On the table, 6.1 Oz of corn sugar (dextrose) at 68F gives maybe 3.4 volumes. That is some SERIOUS carbonation, suitable for a hefeweizen. If it was colder, it would have been even fizzier.

Please correct me if anyone sees a mistake in that calculation :unsure:


----------



## WarmBeer

ballzac said:


> From the table I linked to:
> 
> I will assume you bottled at about 20C, as this is what you fermented at, this is 68F. You used 210g=7.4Oz for a 23L batch (equivalent to 6.1 Oz for a 19L (5USG) brew). On the table, 6.1 Oz of corn sugar (dextrose) at 68F gives maybe 3.4 volumes. That is some SERIOUS carbonation, suitable for a hefeweizen. If it was colder, it would have been even fizzier.
> 
> Please correct me if anyone sees a mistake in that calculation :unsure:


My understanding is that it should be based on the maximum temperature of the beer once fermentation is nearing completion.

A smarter man than I wrote an excellent and comprehensive article about this topic: linky


----------



## bum

One thing for the OP: (and anyone else who cares to comment) another important thing to think about which I _know_ most newer brewers don't pay enough attention to (generalisations are always wrong) is aeration and this is one factor that I've always considered as being a major contributor to shitty-beer syndrome. Everyone is quick to say "twang comes from old tinned extract, everyone knows that!". Fucken bullshit. How many blokes here are making tops beers from LME from not so busy LHBS? Heaps, that's how many. A whole range of things cause twang and in my opinion one of those things is poor conditions (in this context a lack of oxygen) for underpitched, lower quality yeast (5g sachet from under the lid). So yeah, that and all the other stuff mentioned prior.

One thing for the SOFT PRICKS who are whinging about what passes for advice here these days: go get double fucked. Seriously. You want people to take homebrewing seriously in the broader community? Then how will that happen if the biggest board in the country ends up being reserved only for blokes trying to work out how to get the most alc out of a beer in the quickest time? The reason it seems there's almost only shit advice lately? It is because YOU aren't giving up the good stuff. And YOU aren't telling [name removed] to pull his head in with his bullshit. Sick of saying the same thing? Fine. Don't blame some dickhead who got a kit for Christmas for being the reason you've taken your bat and ball and gone home.


----------



## petesbrew

Liam, Regarding the carbonation, I usually bulk prime a 23L batch with no more than 180g dextrose. I once did it with 300g LDME, after misreading Charlie Papazian's book. Suprisingly there were no bottlebombs with that batch, but the head was hectic for an IPA. (a shit one at that).

Good to hear the latest batch has stepped up a notch.
Kits are fine. Stick with them as long as you like. You're brewing for yourself, not some knob at the other end of internetland.
Yeah I love doing AG's but when time is tight, a kit is nice and easy, and you can hop it, add steeped grain, etc etc.

And yeah, keep browsing down the imported aisles, and branch out for something you've never seen before... (belgians, czech pilsners, esbs, stouts).

Awesome vent there, Bum. We were all noobs at one point, and we can't forget that when we see a "my airlock isn't bubbling" thread.


----------



## ballzac

WarmBeer said:


> My understanding is that it should be based on the maximum temperature of the beer once fermentation is nearing completion.
> 
> A smarter man than I wrote an excellent and comprehensive article about this topic: linky


Hadn't heard that before. Interesting link. I don't know if that information is based on empirical evidence, or just theory, but the theory seems flawed to me. The fermenter, contrary to the claim, _is_ under pressure (roughly 15 PSI). I don't see why this pressure should be discounted when you consider what a dramatic effect an _extra_ 15 PSI will do to the quantity of dissolved CO2 in the beer.

There is a thick blanket of CO2 on the beer, and moreso when the temperature has been raised and more has come out of solution. Surely when the temperature drops (given enough time) this will go back into solution? I don't see what would prevent it from being redissolved.

EDIT:Of course, "given enough time" is an important point, because if it takes a week for the CO2 to go back into solution, but you chill over 24 hours and then bottle, the highest temp (or close to) should be used anyway.


----------



## petesbrew

bum said:


> Don't blame some dickhead who got a kit for Christmas for being the reason you've taken your bat and ball and gone home.


For the record, I got mine for my birthday. B)


----------



## Pennywise

Sorry if I've read your post incorrectly ballzac, but there is no way there is 15psi of pressure in the fermenter. The reason the wort/beer wont absorb any of the previously de-absorbed (yes, Iknow thats not a word but I can't think of the term ATM) co2 is because there isn't enough pressure in there, at a guess I'd say it would be sweet FA more that atmospheric pressure, probably not even a measurable difference.


----------



## megs80

When you start out brewing. That homebrew taste is just a fact of life. The way I approached getting rid of that flavour was a couple of things:

1. Use better yeast, Fermentis is good but a wyeast or white labs will make a big difference.
2. Make your better yeast as comfy as possible. Get an old fridge and a temp control unit. Best money you'll spend. All great beers are awesomely fermented.
3. Make starters. Boil water and DME together in a mix around 1040 (100g DME to 1ltr water from memory). Cool in an old softdrink bottle. Pitch ur yeast and add an airlock. Shake as often as possible for around 24hrs, then pitch to wort. This gets the yeast active and lets them multiply in another environment. That way all they want to do in your beer is eat instead of have an orgy, fart and multiply. This is especially necessary if ur doing lagers!

This will make your beer better, not great. Adding extra hops and steeping grains will make your beer better still. You will never make great beer with extract, Thats just the way it is. Its the freshness you will miss out on. The only way to make great beer is all grain. Saying that, ferment your beer well and you and your mates will enjoy ur beer.

Cheers,


----------



## Pennywise

megs80 said:


> You will never make great beer with extract, Thats just the way it is.




Sorry, but that is bullshit


----------



## WarmBeer

Homebrewer79 said:


> Sorry if I've read your post incorrectly ballzac, but there is no way there is 15psi of pressure in the fermenter.


HB79, Ballzac is being technically correct. 15 psi is equivalent to 1 atmosphere of pressure. This is the "strenuous" pressure we live under each and every day.

Now, as to it contributing to re-absorbtion of the CO2 layer back into the beer, I'll call BS, but am open to reasoned, well argued debate.


----------



## petesbrew

Homebrewer79 said:


> Sorry, but that is bullshit


+1.


----------



## Pennywise

WarmBeer said:


> HB79, Ballzac is being technically correct. 15 psi is equivalent to 1 atmosphere of pressure. This is the "strenuous" pressure we live under each and every day.




I was thinking he was saying 15 psi as in more pressure than a standard keg when carbed. Thanks WB :icon_cheers:


----------



## HoppingMad

In answer to the OP, the answer is quite simple.

Temp control, temp control, temp control.

Sure there are heaps of other variables as the guys say, but this is the biggest.

The reason homebrew gets twang, gets fruity gets esters, gets fusel notes is because your yeastie beasties in the drum are being cooked too high.

Get a Fridgemate, or a Tempmate, a manual fridge controller, or a thermostat, or a timer, or a heat pad thermostat, or an submersible aquarium heater, or simply forget the gear and brew in ambient temps that match the spec of your yeast (lagers in winter (when it's 10 degrees in the shed), ales in summer (when its 18-22 degrees)) then you'll hit the motherlode and get clean yummy beer.

Not sure what the temp range is for your yeast? Check the packet. Or better still, go to the Brewcellar, Wyeast, Fermentis or Whitelabs site and grab all the technical info on how to handle that particular yeast. Also realise that Brewcellar yeasts are actually repacked Fermentis yeasts. So if you're using European Lager Brewcellar, check the Fermentis guide for W34/70. If you're using American Ale Brewcellar, check the Fermentis guide for US-05. And so on.

Yeast handling and good temp control makes cleaner better brews. Bad yeast handling and temp control makes sharp tasting ones. The moment I realised this my beers went from the taste of toenail polish to clean heaven. Give it a bash and you'll see.

Hopper.


----------



## 501

Liam dee said:


> Well, I cracked it today... its just over 2 weeks through, and it was a first for everything.
> 1. Brew tastes beautiful. The hops took away that sweet aftertaste just nicely, and it finishes dry due to the dry enzyme
> 2. Sheet i was given said to add 210g of dextrose to 23 L. I feel this was wrong as it is over carbonated.
> But just to reiterate: Brew is deliciouse... I wont go back to no hops now!



Congradulations Liam dee  

Couple of points / questions :-

Temperature control as above: Vital. 

How long was that in the fermentor ? 
approx - 2 weeks in bottle and 2 weeks in fermentor from 12th June?
That seems a little quick to me for lager yeast, 
especially with dry enzyme.... 

I believe many people ferment lagers for around 4 weeks at 12 degrees? 
then lager as well.

Dry Enzyme Use: 
The enzyme makes fermentation take quite a bit longer. 
I had 2 Corona clones like this that were nearly bottle bombs. 
If I remember correctly they were fermented in the primary with ALE yeast for at least 
21 days ! 
Hydrometer read 1.000 ~

Always use a hydrometer. 
Record your results including hydrometer readings, process(es), taste, etc for future reference. 

Carbonation 210 Grams of priming sugar: 
That may be a little bit too much; I get 160-180 grams @ 20 degrees. 
But I would bet that the over carbonation is a product of the dry enzyme, 
and perhaps the use of Lager yeast that was not quite finished. 

Lager yeast even without dry enzyme can take around twice as long, 
to primary ferment and condition (minimum not talking proper lagering). 

Gratz again on a successful brew, 
heading in the right direction now. 



megs80 said:


> You will never make great beer with extract, Thats just the way it is. Its the freshness you will miss out on.


More correct would be to say it is Difficult to make a great lager with extract ? 
This is bs in relation to 'all' beers.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

HoppingMad said:


> In answer to the OP, the answer is quite simple.
> 
> Temp control, temp control, temp control.
> 
> Sure there are heaps of other variables as the guys say, but this is the biggest.
> 
> The reason homebrew gets twang, gets fruity gets esters, gets fusel notes is because your yeastie beasties in the drum are being cooked too high.
> 
> Get a Fridgemate, or a Tempmate, a manual fridge controller, or a thermostat, or a timer, or a heat pad thermostat, or an submersible aquarium heater, or simply forget the gear and brew in ambient temps that match the spec of your yeast (lagers in winter (when it's 10 degrees in the shed), ales in summer (when its 18-22 degrees)) then you'll hit the motherlode and get clean yummy beer.
> 
> Not sure what the temp range is for your yeast? Check the packet. Or better still, go to the Brewcellar, Wyeast, Fermentis or Whitelabs site and grab all the technical info on how to handle that particular yeast. Also realise that Brewcellar yeasts are actually repacked Fermentis yeasts. So if you're using European Lager Brewcellar, check the Fermentis guide for W34/70. If you're using American Ale Brewcellar, check the Fermentis guide for US-05. And so on.
> 
> Yeast handling and good temp control makes cleaner better brews. Bad yeast handling and temp control makes sharp tasting ones. The moment I realised this my beers went from the taste of toenail polish to clean heaven. Give it a bash and you'll see.
> 
> Hopper.



+1

If you don't want the fridge thing going, then brew beers 6 months in advance. I am now brewing beer I want to drink in summer, whilst it is cool enough to do so and not get estery beers - it makes it easier to have the chugger beers you like in summer, ready for summer. And plenty of time to age them well. I then in summer (usually feb or so) brew the winter beers - the dark beers, stouts, porters, dark amber with lots of hops, red ales. These beers do better with a higher temp fermenting yeast, tolerate alcohol well and esters in these beers are either acceptable or even desireable.

Plus, given that I don't want to drink these beers, when they are made, they have a better chance to make it to their season. Especially the darker beers - I don't like drinking them in summer - it's like drinking hot coffee in the middle of summer's day in the sun. The lighter beers - hell if I'm desperate, I might have one or two, but generally they make it to summer.

There is a reason why these things are! :drinks:


----------



## megs80

Seems I hit abit of a nerve with the extract and great beer call. Ive brewed with extract and made good beer with extract. My opinion is if you want to create beer as good as the great ones you can buy. You cant do it with wort reduced down to a syrup, tinned and shipped round the country.


----------



## 501

megs80 said:


> Seems I hit abit of a nerve with the extract and great beer call. Ive brewed with extract and made good beer with extract. My opinion is if you want to create beer as good as the great ones you can buy. You cant do it with wort reduced down to a syrup, tinned and shipped round the country.


yeah I definitely agree it's not as good, 
but - certain styles, 
e.g. plenty of 'great' amber ales, Apas etc can be made with good extract imo. 

Not all newer brewers have the time etc etc to go AG, 
and some experienced Ag'ers brew extracts for quickies and make pretty darn good ones. 
Cheers


----------



## earle

HoppingMad said:


> Yeast handling and good temp control makes cleaner better brews. Bad yeast handling and temp control makes sharp tasting ones. The moment I realised this my beers went from the taste of toenail polish to clean heaven. Give it a bash and you'll see.



Bear in mind that this also applies to yeast handling before it goes in the wort. I was recently running short and picked up a couple of brewcellar premium yeasts from Bowen HBS that were stored on the shelf unrefridgerated. Used them both in brews that I had previously made with success, with awful results. My advice is to make sure your supplier stores yeasts suitably as well.


----------



## Pennywise

megs80 said:


> Seems I hit abit of a nerve with the extract and great beer call. Ive brewed with extract and made good beer with extract. My opinion is if you want to create beer as good as the great ones you can buy. You cant do it with wort reduced down to a syrup, tinned and shipped round the country.




Not trying for a personal attack or anything, even though it may sound/look like it. But, just because you can't make great beer using extracts, doesn't mean I can't or anyone else can't. I can, and have and still do (and I've had much more experienced AG brewers tell me thay are great). I've done 2 AG brews so far, are they as good as some of my extract beers, no, doesn't mean you can't brew better beer with AG just because I can't yet. Have you made Neill's Cenetenarillo recipe, farkin :icon_drool2: , better than alot of beers on the shelf, I'm pretty sure BribieG has had kit recipes win comps (his headbanger stout I think, please correct me if I'm wrong BG), what about DrSmurto's Golden Ale recipe in kit or extract form? I've heard bloody good things about that. Like I said not trying to attack, I just know for a fact, you can make great beer using extract. Telling newbies that you absolutly can't is just going to drive some away from the hobby :beer:


----------



## 501

earle said:


> Bear in mind that this also applies to yeast handling before it goes in the wort. I was recently running short and picked up a couple of brewcellar premium yeasts from Bowen HBS that were stored on the shelf unrefridgerated. Used them both in brews that I had previously made with success, with awful results. My advice is to make sure your supplier stores yeasts suitably as well.


Sorry to go off topic a bit, 
Brewcellar yeasts, 
I had a problem with one firing recently as well, 
hbs here has them in fridge But no use by could be found on the offending 
yank ale yeast, the other brew (s04 brewcellar type) fired as usual. 

Should there be a seperate use by sticker that has perhaps been removed on these, 
or does anyone know the code for the stamps? 
cheers :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## boybrewer

501 said:


> yeah I definitely agree it's not as good,
> but - certain styles,
> e.g. plenty of 'great' amber ales, Apas etc can be made with good extract imo.
> 
> Not all newer brewers have the time etc etc to go AG,
> and some experienced Ag'ers brew extracts for quickies and make pretty darn good ones.
> Cheers



I disagree with that you can make a good beer with extract but not by extract alone except for Niels centenarillo and a couple of other brews listed in the recipe DB, mixing it with a few grains , some nice hop combo's and a good yeast to the style you are brewing with , can make a damn fine brew . I have proven this with a third place in the latest comp with a tin of goo and this was a stout  


Cheers
Beerbelly


----------



## unrealeous

HoppingMad said:


> Temp control, temp control, temp control.


+1

And next on the list that's helped my beers is getting the pitching rate right... Here a little experiment
http://seanterrill.com/2010/05/09/yeast-pi...g-rate-results/


----------



## petesbrew

Yes we know AG rocks, but I've tasted some pretty downright crook AG beers as well.
Yep, Extract has it's limitations, but with the convenience and what you can do with it, you can't turn your nose up at it. Geez, what do you think partials have in them?

I'll put my flame suit on, and say it all comes down to the brewer, the gear and ingredients he has at his disposal, and his knowledge, experience, creativity & willing to take risks.

I've made some pretty downright shocking beers but they're all a lesson well learnt, especially the fermenter full of infected AG beer that goes down the laundry sink. THAT sucks.

Back to work


----------



## WarmBeer

501 said:


> Sorry to go off topic a bit,
> Brewcellar yeasts,
> I had a problem with one firing recently as well,
> hbs here has them in fridge But no use by could be found on the offending
> yank ale yeast, the other brew (s04 brewcellar type) fired as usual.
> 
> Should there be a seperate use by sticker that has perhaps been removed on these,
> or does anyone know the code for the stamps?
> cheers :icon_chickcheers:


Same here, had an (admittedly old) pack of the Brewcellar American Ale, took over 48 hours to show any krausen or condensation on my glad wrap.

Once it fired up, it was fine, but 48 is a loooooooong time to be paranoid about infections making their way in.


----------



## ballzac

WarmBeer said:


> HB79, Ballzac is being technically correct. 15 psi is equivalent to 1 atmosphere of pressure. This is the "strenuous" pressure we live under each and every day.
> 
> Now, as to it contributing to re-absorbtion of the CO2 layer back into the beer, I'll call BS, but am open to reasoned, well argued debate.


Yep. That's what I meant. And sorry for going off-topic to an extent, but I just want to give my reasoning. The pressures normally used in kegging are actual _gauge_ pressures. That is, they are stated as quantities _above_ atmospheric pressure. So when you have your keg pressurised at '15 PSI', this is a gauge pressure, and actually means that there is about 30 PSI in the keg. If a keg is under this pressure at 15C, about 2 volumes of CO2 should be dissolved in the beer when it is saturated (I got this from one of the carbonation spreadsheets). If the temperature is dropped to 2C, and the pressure kept constant, the volumes of CO2 should increase to 3 (given time, perhaps a week?).

It seems to me that the same principles should be at work at atmospheric pressure, which is _not_ negligible, but is _half_ the absolute pressure that I was referring to in the kegging scenario, unless there is a reason that it shouldn't. I too am quite open to the idea that my argument is flawed, but a 'hunch' isn't enough to convince me . Of course, if this process takes a week or something in a keg, it would possibly take even longer at half the pressure. This means that if you have a beer that fermented at 20C and then quickly chill prior to carbonation, it will make FA difference. But what if you were lagering (in a CO2 purged lagering tank) or some other similar scenario? It could make a real difference to the amount of dissolved CO2, so it is an important point to get right. 

Perhaps an experiment is in order B)


----------



## Pennywise

Thanks for your eplanaition on your reasoning ballzac. Makes sense to me now what you meant. I still don't believe that under normal fermenter conditions that co2 would re-absorb, think of it this way, if it's coming out of solution at 15psi, then wouldn't it need to be higher for it to re-absorb, regardless of the temperature? Would be a little different in a purged keg I spose, if you left it pressurised but not hooked up to the gas, it would eventually reach equilibrium and absorb some of it. Sorry for even further :icon_offtopic:


----------



## ballzac

Homebrewer79 said:


> if it's coming out of solution at 15psi, then wouldn't it need to be higher for it to re-absorb, regardless of the temperature?


PV=NRT
So in some ways, a decrease in temperature is equivalent to an increase in pressure (over-simplified I know).


----------



## pcmfisher

Yes there is 15psi on the top of the beer in the fermenter, but there is also 15psi on all outsides of the fermenter effectively meaning no pressure difference.


----------



## ballzac

pcmfisher said:


> Yes there is 15psi on the top of the beer in the fermenter, but there is also 15psi on all outsides of the fermenter effectively meaning no pressure difference.


It's the same as in a keg, but in a keg the pressure is provided by the rigidity of the steel. The most important thing, as far as I can gather, is the pressure _at the interface_ of the beer and CO2.

EDIT: This discussion really belongs in the discussion topic for the wiki article, I'll copy it from here and we can continue it there.


----------



## bum

petesbrew said:


> For the record, I got mine for my birthday. B)


 
I had to buy mine for myself as no one loves me. 

I think some of us are forgetting that liquids generally don't want gases dissolved in them and it'll take more than ambient pressure to force it to. 

And, if I may, I'd like to present another perspective on HoppingMad's (very good) advice. The importance of temp control in this game is accepted by pretty much everyone - this importance can't be understated..._but_...I can tell you from bitter personal experience that temp control will not completely get rid of kit twang. High temps will promote it but fermenting at the cool end for your yeast will not prevent twang's presence in a beer.


----------



## ballzac

Carbonation/pressure/temperature tangent is now quoted in the wiki discussion topic: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry651619
Please continue it there as I think it is both interesting and important


----------



## megs80

Homebrewer79 said:


> Not trying for a personal attack or anything, even though it may sound/look like it. But, just because you can't make great beer using extracts, doesn't mean I can't or anyone else can't. I can, and have and still do (and I've had much more experienced AG brewers tell me thay are great). I've done 2 AG brews so far, are they as good as some of my extract beers, no, doesn't mean you can't brew better beer with AG just because I can't yet. Have you made Neill's Cenetenarillo recipe, farkin :icon_drool2: , better than alot of beers on the shelf, I'm pretty sure BribieG has had kit recipes win comps (his headbanger stout I think, please correct me if I'm wrong BG), what about DrSmurto's Golden Ale recipe in kit or extract form? I've heard bloody good things about that. Like I said not trying to attack, I just know for a fact, you can make great beer using extract. Telling newbies that you absolutly can't is just going to drive some away from the hobby :beer:



Dont worry no harm done. Im not knocking extract. My Ag brews arent as good as what my extract brews were yet. I even had an extract brew place 2nd in last years NSW comp. The thread started with beer having that homebrew taste. Most of the problem flavours are becouse of fermentation, I think most of us agree with that. There are also flavours associated with extract which can be put down to a homebrewy flavour. I think this becouse of the freshness of the extract. Maybe the places I got my extract from werent that fresh. Also I used term great beer. A great beer to me is a bottle of pliny or saison du pont. Maybe I should have said 50 point beer, or maybe I should have shut up  ,dont know. 
Anyway you do it your still making beer. Which is awesome!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

megs80 said:


> Dont worry no harm done. Im not knocking extract. My Ag brews arent as good as what my extract brews were yet. I even had an extract brew place 2nd in last years NSW comp. The thread started with beer having that homebrew taste. Most of the problem flavours are becouse of fermentation, I think most of us agree with that. There are also flavours associated with extract which can be put down to a homebrewy flavour. I think this becouse of the freshness of the extract. Maybe the places I got my extract from werent that fresh. Also I used term great beer. A great beer to me is a bottle of pliny or saison du pont. Maybe I should have said 50 point beer, or maybe I should have shut up  ,dont know.
> Anyway you do it your still making beer. Which is awesome!



The best extract beers are the ones made with grains as an adjunct (other than good yeast).

I brewed kit for 2 years, extract for 10 years and I'm a few batches in with AG. So I'm not an extract-snob, telling everyone to "go to AG, it's the best".

I found that my dark ales were extremely forgiving with extract. Generally the dark roast and the adjuncts I put in it were able to mask the twang - I had a lot of friends that drank stout and dark beer, so I made a helluva lot and they financed some brews on their behalf, so something good about extract brew. 

My lighter coloured beers weren't bad, but I find my AG lighter coloured beers are signficantly better - and that is only BIAB.

The things I believe make the best extract brews (other than yeast control, which has been sufficiently espoused) is:

1. Good quality extract (get it unhopped) and a good quantity of it. Don't be stingy.

2. Learn your hops and how to use them - this and unhopped extract are the biggest jumps in quality and personal touch (other than yeast) an extract/kit brewer can achieve.

3. Grains and adjuncts add depth to your beer. Learn how to use them properly. As a side benefit, if you want to try AG, it makes the learning curve less steep.

4. Avoid cane sugar. If you want more alcohol, increase the extract volume. Cane sugar I found is generally the biggest culprit in me getting twang. As soon as I ditched it, my brews got signficantly better. When progressing from kits & bits to extract you need to lose the cane sugar training wheels.

5. Go for beers that will forgive fruity esters - hoppy amber ales and pale ales, porter, stout. If you can't get rid of twang, you can hide it among the desireable flavours.

6. Don't use the cooper's tin yeast. If you obey point 1, this shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Pennywise

I agree that to make an extract brew excellent you do need spec grain, decent yeast (although I have no problem with the coopers kit yeast at all, but it must be fresh), good temp control and many other things.
@megs80, we're all hear to discuss brewing mate, never a need to just shut up :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bribie G

I've found that with kits and extracts, I could make very nice beers at the darker end of the range, in fact some brews such as Morgans Ironbark dark just as is, kit yeast and maybe a handful of fuggles is as twang free as you will get. Noice drop. Not to mention my crazy headbanger stout. :kooi: On the other hand the lighter and lighter I went, the more noticeable the extract taste became. However using very light extract and a selection of pale malts to do a partial mash got me beers that were well on the way to Melbourne Bitter etc. Which was what I was aiming for. Since I was spending a couple of hours doing a stovetop partial anyway, that's what got me into AG.

What I have found however is that in the middle of the range, attempting malt driven UK Bitters and Milds, I have had no luck with extract. It seems to turn out just like my old dad's extract and dried up fuggles 1950s brews. I'm off to Coles today and if they have some Coopers on Spec I might run up a couple of toucan stout headbangers as my brewery is tied up with comp beers ATM and I need a couple of quick quaffers. :beerbang:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

BribieG said:


> I've found that with kits and extracts, I could make very nice beers at the darker end of the range, in fact some brews such as Morgans Ironbark dark just as is, kit yeast and maybe a handful of fuggles is as twang free as you will get. Noice drop. Not to mention my crazy headbanger stout. :kooi: On the other hand the lighter and lighter I went, the more noticeable the extract taste became. However using very light extract and a selection of pale malts to do a partial mash got me beers that were well on the way to Melbourne Bitter etc. Which was what I was aiming for. Since I was spending a couple of hours doing a stovetop partial anyway, that's what got me into AG.
> 
> What I have found however is that in the middle of the range, attempting malt driven UK Bitters and Milds, I have had no luck with extract. It seems to turn out just like my old dad's extract and dried up fuggles 1950s brews. I'm off to Coles today and if they have some Coopers on Spec I might run up a couple of toucan stout headbangers as my brewery is tied up with comp beers ATM and I need a couple of quick quaffers. :beerbang:



+1 - exactly what I think.

My theory as to why the darker brews are more forgiving than light ones, and that english ales are awful from a kit? Darker variety malt. The bitterness roasted/chocolate/whatever dark malt provides a beer is unique and has the habit of hiding twang. It provides bitterness that is different to hops, so you don't end up with old hop odours dominating the bittering part of the palate.

With light beers - there is no roast to hide the twang. The hops, if they are old, exacerbate it somewhat. Even fresh hops leave a light extract brew tasting agricultural. 

The English malt beers are all sweet, and low hop, so the sweetness which is the dominant characteristic of these styles, has nothing to hide behind (hop bitterness nor roasting bitterness), so again, twang.

I also hid twang in many of my darker beers behind cloves (numbs the palate a little too, as well as making the stout a 2 stubbie and I'm asleep job) and other spices (star anise, cardamom, cinnamon (sparingly)).

Below beer is an AG brew. No spices in this one, just a good grain bill. Oh and honey and cherry juice and Nelson Sauvin hops and a windsor yeast.


----------



## Fourstar

This is the funniest, least moderated thread i have read in a while. Kinda feel like i am in 4chan right about now. :lol: 






+



=


----------



## Pennywise

4*, the kitten is supposed to be IN the airlock


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

Fourstar said:


> This is the funniest, least moderated thread i have read in a while. Kinda feel like i am in 4chan right about now. :lol:



:lol: 

If only we could cause the commercial brewers trouble like the 4chan crew did with Beiber! :lol: :lol:


----------



## bum

Fourstar said:


> least moderated thread i have read in a while.


 
Yeah, it's not just helpful brewers who've all but disappeared from here.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Don't get it.

Usually beer = pussy for me. Not the other way around.


----------



## Pete2501

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Don't get it.
> 
> Usually beer = pussy for me. Not the other way around.



To make beer properly you need to put moar kittens in the air lock.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Fourstar said:


> This is the funniest, least moderated thread i have read in a while. Kinda feel like i am in 4chan right about now. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> 
> 
> 
> =






Pete2501 said:


> To make beer properly you need to put moar kittens in the air lock.



Why kittens? *literal person here*.

Seriously, this debate rolling around AHB the last couple of weeks is crazy. We have the extract don't-tell-us-to-go-all-grain nazis vs the AG you-can't possibly-make-adequate-beer snobs.

It's getting old.

IMO - AG produces the best beer. But extract can produce good beer. And years' of experience doing extract have taught me that darker beers have more give in errors. After all the Guide to Allgrain brewing in a bag (not the nick_JD one - that's another flamewar in its own right) uses a basic dark beer to start, because of that same reason.

The funniest thing in this thread is actually bum's rant. But for what it's worth, he's right.


----------



## 501

Ah ic 
you mean pussy brings beer 
lucky man 
:drinks:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

501 said:


> Ah ic
> you mean pussy brings beer
> lucky man
> :drinks:




Nope. Pussy doesn't bring beer. But if I bring beer to owner of pussy.....


----------



## Fourstar

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> The funniest thing in this thread *is actually bum's rant*. But for what it's worth, he's right.



Dang, it only took 40 posts for someone to comment on it. Maybe this forum *is *on the way down?! People can't even be bothered to bite back!


----------



## muckey

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Why kittens? *literal person here*.
> 
> *snip*




not trying to hijack the thread but the kittens relates back to a quote from someone who used to be a member of this forum

rants will never be the same again h34r:


----------



## bum

Muckey said:


> not trying to hijack the thread but the kittens relates back to a quote from someone who used to be a member of this forum
> 
> rants will never be the same again h34r:


 
Yep, pretty big shoes to fill. He is very sorely missed. 

And a quick reminder - kittens are for choking as an educational aid, not for stuffing into airlocks.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Fourstar said:


> Dang, it only took 40 posts for someone to comment on it. Maybe this forum *is *on the way down?! People can't even be bothered to bite back!



regarding bum's rant - if someone gives bad advice, they get lambasted by AG "all non AG beer is garbage" snobs. If they give good advice (usually centred around good brewing practice and advice to go to AG), the "don't tell us to go AG, brewing isn't that complicated, how dare you say my kit beer isn't as good as your AG from a 3V system" start a friggin' crybaby trollbot flamewar. Happened to me last week and I didn't even explicitly say "you should go AG", just that _my_ AG beers are an improvement in 6 batches over 10 years of extract.

Dunno - I know that I've given the best advice I know - and when it comes to extract, I know my stuff. Can't say the same for AG, but in my limited opinion, it is the best way to brew beer. Time consuming, yes. More complicated, yes, but a better result.

But at the same time, I'm not about to tell someone who is doing kit/extract "go away n00b, go AG with a 3V system and $2000 worth of kegerator, it's the only way you get half decent beer", because I know from personal experience that good beer can be made from extract and that lack of knowledge about great brewing practices doesn't automatically doom someone to brewing failure - even if it does increase likelihood of said failure. We all learn at our own speed. And I'm sure the ancients occasionally made good beer. Ugly people never died out.


----------



## bum

I'd like to distance myself from LRG's opinion on my opinion. He is misinterpreting my point to suit his own position. In fact, I can barely see how it even relates.


----------



## muckey

I certainly agree that my AG efforts are far better than my kit / extract efforts too.

In reality, most people start with a kit brew and some of us progress from there. Forme, it has nothing to do with which method produces the best beer. I think that brewing with kits and progressing from there is a perfect way to learn about cleaning, sanitation, fermentation and also to gain an understanding of what some adjuct bring to the beer - eg by dryhopping, steeping grains, trying different yeast etc and all of this can be done without even knowing what 3V system is.

sorry peoples / rant off. :lol: 

I personally think that the best things that I found to reduce the home brew taste were steeped grains and learning how to remove the yeast from my beer.


----------



## MarkBastard

Talking extract (unhopped) Vs All Grain,

I think it comes down to the following.

1 - All grain you can choose from many different base malts and can mash these for different lengths of time at different temperatures etc.
2 - LME you have far less choice or control over this.
3 - With this in mind, if your recipe just happened to require base malt that would be very similar to Pale LME, then your extract + spec grain beer will probably be pretty bloody close to the AG one, albeit with a bit of a twang.

A good extract beer is like 90% as good as the AG equivalent.

Where as a kit beer that's isohopped is IMO about 10% of the way towards AG.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

bum said:


> I'd like to distance myself from LRG's opinion on my opinion. He is misinterpreting my point to suit his own position. In fact, I can barely see how it even relates.



Then what is your position? Because I re-read your post before making mine - and AFAIK, I've interpreted it right. 

What I see you saying is "don't blame us for bad advice, harden up. Will someone with good advice please share it." And my position on that is clear - I agree. 

But there are flamewars all through the forum, and principally it revolves around either 1. Average advice or 2. Good advice that someone else unrelated doesn't want to hear and starts an OT flamewar.

But I may have lost your meaning in the expletive laiden rant.  

Either way, this debate is healthy. And I always stand corrected on anything I write. I don't think of myself as any oracle or that my opinion is final, absolute or even correct. However, I do prefer that either way, healthy debate is not discouraged. After all, art is something peculiar to each person, and whilst brewing is definately a science, it is also an art.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Mark^Bastard said:


> Talking extract (unhopped) Vs All Grain,
> 
> I think it comes down to the following.
> 
> 1 - All grain you can choose from many different base malts and can mash these for different lengths of time at different temperatures etc.
> 2 - LME you have far less choice or control over this.
> 3 - With this in mind, if your recipe just happened to require base malt that would be very similar to Pale LME, then your extract + spec grain beer will probably be pretty bloody close to the AG one, albeit with a bit of a twang.
> 
> A good extract beer is like 90% as good as the AG equivalent.
> 
> Where as a kit beer that's isohopped is IMO about 10% of the way towards AG.



Agreed. My biggest jump in quality was moving from kit to extract plus grain plus hops. But the biggest jump in choices and styles is from extract to AG, as the world of malts especially opened up to give me so many more ingredients to play with.


----------



## bum

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I've interpreted it right.


 


Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> And I always stand corrected on anything I write. I don't think of myself as any oracle or that my opinion is final, absolute or even correct.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

bum - Quoted out of context. Didn't I write "as far as I know, I've interpreted it right"? hence the latter comment stands as consistent with the former comment. I also invited a clearly written comment that can be interpreted. Again, consistent with my comments.

Geez - have you got the same disease as SWMBO?


----------



## bum

As far as I know, "AFAIK" in practical terms means "not my fault if I'm wrong" and can be discounted completely when used in the context you used it.

Can you get your SWMBO to post here? She sounds pretty sensible to me.


----------



## Fourstar

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Geez - have you got the same disease as SWMBO?



If you havn't been active on most threads, Bum did complete his  her first all grain brewday in a leopard print g string. Purely for asthetic reasons of course! Aerodynamics go a long way in this black art.

EDIT: strikeout


----------



## megs80

Mark^Bastard said:


> Talking extract (unhopped) Vs All Grain,
> 
> I think it comes down to the following.
> 
> 1 - All grain you can choose from many different base malts and can mash these for different lengths of time at different temperatures etc.
> 2 - LME you have far less choice or control over this.
> 3 - With this in mind, if your recipe just happened to require base malt that would be very similar to Pale LME, then your extract + spec grain beer will probably be pretty bloody close to the AG one, albeit with a bit of a twang.
> 
> A good extract beer is like 90% as good as the AG equivalent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where as a kit beer that's isohopped is IMO about 10% of the way towards AG.



I agree


----------



## bum

Now, now, Fourstar. Now you're misrepresenting me. It was my first AG brewday done out of the kitchen. It was only proper to put something on. What would the neighbours think?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

bum said:


> As far as I know, "AFAIK" in practical terms means "not my fault if I'm wrong" and can be discounted completely when used in the context you used it.
> 
> Can you get your SWMBO to post here? She sounds pretty sensible to me.



aaargh, forget it. This is boring and pointless. "Anything you do say will be twisted, quoted out of context and used against you".

Rather funny that I've just started reading _1984_. What a bizarre co-incidence. Not big brother, the thought police.


----------



## bum

Now I'm Big Brother? 

Yeah, definitely me doing the word twisting.

My ignore list is getting longer every day. Seriously.


----------



## staggalee

bum said:


> Now I'm Big Brother?
> 
> My ignore list is getting longer every day. Seriously.



I`m not on it yet tho, am I ?  

stagga.


----------



## bum

Who said that?


----------



## staggalee

Bugger it....it`s that long since I posted I forget how to post an image. Oh well back to the Hanwood Estate muscat.
Goodbye again all. :beer: 

stagga.


----------



## Pennywise

My point, which may have been ill written, wasn't weather AG was better tasting or not, I'd say it prolly is when done with knowledge & experience compared to the same person brewing the same recipe with extract. My point was that you can make great beer with extract, end of story. I'm off to go and choke my cat now, does it matter if she isn't a kitten anymore?


----------



## levin_ae92

ballzac said:


> PV=NRT
> So in some ways, a decrease in temperature is equivalent to an increase in pressure (over-simplified I know).



sorry having fun just Reading this epic thread, but thought I'd add that the above equation states all else being equal an increase in temp equals an increase in pressure. This is why aerosol cans explode in heat. Shouldn't state scientific equations unless you know what your talking about or else you look stupid.


----------



## ballzac

levin_ae92 said:


> sorry having fun just Reading this epic thread, but thought I'd add that the above equation states all else being equal an increase in temp equals an increase in pressure. This is why aerosol cans explode in heat. Shouldn't state scientific equations unless you know what your talking about or else you look stupid.


I went to the effort of moving the entire discussion to another thread to avoid clogging up this one, so you can go to the other one to make this point and we can discuss it there...unless you just wanted a larger audience before which to put me down


----------



## manticle

Has anyone ever tried to hold their breath underwater for longer than a minute? It's really hard.

Thread's great by the way - go AG, shut up snob, extract is rubbish, my best beers were brewed by my mum, etc etc etc.

Anyone know if no chilling can kill you and what does everyone here think about BIAB?


----------



## Hatchy

You forgot to mention lid vs glad wrap Manticle. I tried glad wrap but drowned too many kittens so the RSPCA bought me some lids & airlocks.

Edit: Why isn't my kitten bubbling in the airlock?


----------



## Katherine

manticle said:


> Has anyone ever tried to hold their breath underwater for longer than a minute? It's really hard.
> 
> Thread's great by the way - go AG, shut up snob, extract is rubbish, my best beers were brewed by my mum, etc etc etc.
> 
> Anyone know if no chilling can kill you and what does everyone here think about BIAB?



my best beer (and comp winner) was brewed by a mum...


----------



## Bribie G

For those who came in late the kittens thing was a former member who exploded in a thread posted by yet another person who said "My airlock isn't bubbling" to which the former member posted something like "look, to make my point and get you to understand I'll come round and strangle a kitten in front of you "

Since then kittens and airlock bubbling have been closely intertwined on AHB


----------



## manticle

Yes but is glad wrap foodsafe?

and can you get botulism from a kitten?




Katie said:


> my best beer (and comp winner) was brewed by a mum...



ya mum?


----------



## kbe

The way I look at it, there is a few very valid reasons that people brew with kits and extract.

One is the time that they have available to brew. For me, I am lucky to have 4 days off a month, and along with other things I do, I have just enough time to do some brews with some goo and maybe some additions.

The second is $'s. Not everyone can afford to go to all grain brewing. Most people get into home brewing for this exact reason. All grain, for some is not an option. If anyone is willing to send me enough to make a complete Brutus 10 for me, then I would be willing to try to find some time to use it.

All grain could very well taste better than kit or extract, but then, what do the BIG brewers use to make the stuff that most of us do not like to drink. I bet it is not from kits and extract, so maybe all grain is not that great. (This is just another way of looking at things. Specifically my way.)

Point is, from what I read here, most questions that are asked about kit and extract nearly always get dragged towards the "all grain" side of things, and maybe people should edit that out of their responses before clicking the 'add reply' button.

My brews have become a lot better since I acquired a second hand fridge and added temperature control to it, as has using some of the yeast that have been recommended in threads here. I have also started to add steeped grains to again add more flavour. To do this I bought a portable gas cooker and some gas cylinders for about $25 from Big W, and use a pot from the kitchen, which all costs less than an all grain setup.

I read the advice given by people who do all grain, but I think that some of you could give us kits and extracts blokes a break from the 'go all grain' as a standard part of your responses.


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## Oatlands Brewer

Can anyone tell me why my airlocks not bubbling my brews been at 120 deg for 20 mins and nothings happnen.

oh and i used Baker's yeast


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## Smashin

thats all very good oatlands but I think you find it will kick off nicely if you sit it up against a north facing window...



Oatlands Brewer said:


> Can anyone tell me why my airlocks not bubbling my brews been at 120 deg for 20 mins and nothings happnen.
> 
> oh and i used Baker's yeast


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## Oatlands Brewer

Smashin said:


> thats all very good oatlands but I think you find it will kick off nicely if you sit it up against a north facing window...




Thanks Smash but being in Oatlands all our windows face south and have bars on them


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## muckey

120 degrees is a bit cool isnt it???

and for those who cant get their airlock bubbling.... you need a kitten and some bubblewrap


Oh my god I went there didn't I................ :unsure:


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## Bribie G

kbe makes a good point that to get into AG full sized batches there is a definite financial 'hump' to get over - despite the stovetop mini-biab get into AG for less than $30 methods most people go the BIAB urn or the 3V with kettles and and eski, and not all of us can fork out four or five hundred dollars - for example I'm a part pensioner (Carer) and most of my equipment has been financed by that nice Mr Howard, and then that nice Mr Rudd stimulating me, and I am about to be stimulated again by that lovely redhead who is not yet at the Lodge - however there are a lot of guys out there with mortgages and ankle biters etc who don't get a cash injection by the Govt. and are brewing to a budget and have fairly basic jobs. 

Great news is that they can get into brewing a good drinkable drop with the high quality of kits and bits available in Australia. Get onto a UK forum like Jim's beer kit and for everyone in Australia who is using Muntons, there are fifty Poms buying exported Coopers tins at twenty bucks a pop their money. Speaks for itself.


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## stuart13

kbe said:


> My brews have become a lot better since I acquired a second hand fridge and added temperature control to it, as has using some of the yeast that have been recommended in threads here. I have also started to add steeped grains to again add more flavour. To do this I bought a portable gas cooker and some gas cylinders for about $25 from Big W, and use a pot from the kitchen, which all costs less than an all grain setup.



You are standing atop a slippery slide, my friend...


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## jyo

stuart13 said:


> You are standing atop a slippery slide, my friend...



I agree. Stop now. All Grain will only produce shit beer anyway.

Wow, 4 pages in one day...this must be a record....


Edit- And thanks for the clarification on the kitten incident, Bribie. I had wondered for bloody months!


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## Hatchy

Apologies for a potentially on topic post here & double apologies if this has been covered in previous pages.

To answer question 1 from the original post, I'm guessing I'm with most of the other dudes here who are or have been fully familiar with the kit twang mentioned by OP. I'd agree with the blokes who suggested temp control, it's definitely been one of the better improvements here, having said that, during summer I brewed some pretty good beers at 26 using us05 (flame suit on). Using a good recipe certainly doesn't hurt, Neill's centenarillo is a winner (I used galaxy as I didn't have any centennial but I don't think I've seen a bad word said about that recipe), I'm happy to share some of my better ones but they're not going to be anywhere near the commercial beers mentioned in OP. I would suggest doing a blind tasting of Tooheys new & Carlton dry to see how much different they do taste & if you can pick the difference (I'm not saying you won't pick the difference but the worst thing that can come from this experiment is that you'll drink 2 beers). I would have the top 5 most important things to look at for kit/extract beer as sanitation, sanitation, sanitation, temp control, good, re-hydrated yeast & using a recipe that is going to make beer that you'll enjoy drinking.

As an "answer" to question 2, I'd never heard of Tooheys whitestag until reading this thread, sorry.

P.S. Thanks everyone for keeping up the entertainment in this thread during what was an otherwise uneventful day at "work".


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## petesbrew

BribieG said:


> View attachment 39255
> 
> 
> For those who came in late the kittens thing was a former member who exploded in a thread posted by yet another person who said "My airlock isn't bubbling" to which the former member posted something like "look, to make my point and get you to understand I'll come round and strangle a kitten in front of you "
> 
> Since then kittens and airlock bubbling have been closely intertwined on AHB


Been on this site for around 4 years, and FINALLY someone's explained it.
Thankyou, Bribie. :beer:


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## Kevman

kbe said:


> Point is, from what I read here, most questions that are asked about kit and extract nearly always get dragged towards the "all grain" side of things, and maybe people should edit that out of their responses before clicking the 'add reply' button.
> 
> I read the advice given by people who do all grain, but I think that some of you could give us kits and extracts blokes a break from the 'go all grain' as a standard part of your responses.



I agree with kbe on this one.

One of the biggest issues is that we don't know the experience of the person asking the question. They might have only done two or three kits using a kit, kilo of sugar and fermented at 26C because thats what the instructions said. With AG, you want them to start understanding mash in and out temps, efficiency ratings, hop schedules, sparging, etc. it just isn't going to happen. This is like giving a 17 year old two driving lessons, throwing them in a Formula 1 car on a race track and expecting the car back in one piece.

I think homebrewing tends to be a progressive journey. You start doing kits with sugar, then learn some information here, get your temperature and sanitation under control. Next you start using better yeasts, steeping some grains, and adding hops to your kits. Next you start doing extracts and designing your own recipes. Then you might decide to do some all grain.


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## Nick JD

I find the biggest increase in homebrew quality comes with replacing the kit goop with unhopped extract, good yeast and real hops in a small boil. 

Having a peer say, "Hey, this doesn't taste like homebrew," after a sip is motivation enough to cause brewing addiction, and that road almost always leads to AG if someone shows how simple it actually is. It's not the equipment the novice brewer needs, it's the instruction that cements the theory. 

I sometimes think the American situation where they don't have K&K (and are forced into extract brewing as novices) is probably a good thing. 

I also don't know why no homebrew kit company sells a can of unhopped goop (2.5kg) with a packet of fresh hops and yeast to go with it - the whole lot stored in the supermarket fridge. Coopers? You listening? I suspect if Coopers sold a kit that practically made as good a beer as the stuff they sell at the Bottlo ... it might not be good for business. 

And therein ends my soapbox conspiracy as to why K&K is deliberately made to be terrible ... it's made by the same companies who make beer. Can anyone think of another reason they tell people to brew at those temperatures?


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## Hatchy

That's probably part of it but I reckon they see the home brew market as a different market to their traditional market. I reckon it's more about keeping it simple for beginners.


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## Pete2501

BribieG said:


> For those who came in late the kittens thing was a former member who exploded in a thread posted by yet another person who said "My airlock isn't bubbling" to which the former member posted something like "look, to make my point and get you to understand I'll come round and strangle a kitten in front of you "
> 
> Since then kittens and airlock bubbling have been closely intertwined on AHB



That's pretty funny.


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## Scruffy

[Car analogy warning... ]

Kit car using pre-assembled parts and bits:







Bespoke car, bespoke parts:






[/Car analogy warning... ]


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## petesbrew

Scruffy said:


> [Car analogy warning... ]



Bulk buy anyone?


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## Nick JD

This is also a Kit Car. :icon_cheers:


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## Scruffy

That's why the car analogy works every time...

Unless you devote your time and skill to a project, and use the best bits you can find, and don't spend all your cash in Bunnings, even a kit can scrub up well...

Shame about the engine in that one though...


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## Scruffy

Think this is a porsche clone too:






err, looks a bit like one...


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## Shed101

Back OT ... assuming the OP hasn't already drowned himself in his own fermenter. 

The only homebrew twang i've had was from my first effort, where I used kit yeast and dextrose. I bought a tempmate 'cos the minimal research I'd done said temperature was important and i fortunately had a spare fridge, but while I was away for the easter weekend the fridge shelf collapsed and the fermenter pushed the door opened so the temp. probably fluctuated for the first 4 days.

Since then all of my beers have cost ~$40 / 20-23 litres in ingredients and despite inevitable cock-ups  "useful learning experiences" and a lot of procrastination "research" on this fine site my beer is improving and my K&B beer is remarkably drinkable.

You don't need to shell out a fortune for a decent homebrew, but you do need to spend where it matters.


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## HoppingMad

One thing has been neglected in this kit vs extract vs AG debate. 

Competition results - a true test of what is best.

When you look at comps like VicBrew you'll see plenty of kits and bits beers winning and beating a field of all-grainers and extracters. And plenty or extracts winning, and plenty of AG beers too. It's pretty even. 

I can't speak for every year, but the 2006 VicBrew book I referred to lists 7 kit and bit winners that thumped the rest.
There was even an Imperial Stout winning brew was a double can kit with a few additions!

So let's get some perspective here. I think it is not about the tools you have at your disposal. But how you use them. 

You can still win a race with a Mini Minor if those driving the Ferrari can't get out of first gear. 

Hopper.


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## sandjeep457

Shed101 said:


> Since then all of my beers have cost ~$40 / 20-23 litres in ingredients and despite inevitable cock-ups  "useful learning experiences" and a lot of procrastination "research" on this fine site my beer is improving and my .



Hi Shed,

How do you spend the $40 ? I have been using Coopers Cans @$12 and White Sugar (sorry) at about $2.50. I assume you are buying hops and using other yeast ?

Sandy.


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## drsmurto

I've always preferred the bolognaise analogy.

Kits = a jar of dolmio. 10 mins effort for something that tastes ok but you don't really know what is in the jar.

AG = fresh tomatoes, herbs etc and several hours of slow cooking. You know everything that has gone into the pot.

If you are short on time kits will produce nice beer, if you have the time and passion for the hobby then AG can make a wider range of beers using fresh ingredients and you have total control over the process.

The vast majority of AG brewers started life as kit brewers so i don't understand why some feel the need to look down their noses at kit brewers and their beers.

Whilst i haven't gone back to kits (or jars of dolmio) i still believe that with a few added extras; fresh hops, good yeast and if appropriate, some steeped grain you can produce very good beers that have won awards in the past. 

When i first stumbled on this site i was a kit brewer and its something i refuse to forget. Which is why when people ask for a kit/extract/partial version of any of my recipes i am more than happy to help. I was helped so much when i first found this site and so its only fair that i repay that help by helping out newer brewers.

I'll take a well made kit beer over a crap AG beer any day of the week :icon_cheers: 

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. apologies for the OT soap box.


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## Shed101

sandjeep457 said:


> Hi Shed,
> 
> How do you spend the $40 ? I have been using Coopers Cans @$12 and White Sugar (sorry) at about $2.50. I assume you are buying hops and using other yeast ?
> 
> Sandy.



Hi Sandy

I've used pricier ingredients - I refuse to shop at the Supermarket Duopoly (for anything) so pay a bit more for kits, i've used Munton's cans sometimes, dry malt at $6-7 / kg, hop bags, flowers and pellets and different yeasts, plus i've steeped grains.

Shed


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## drsmurto

sandjeep457 said:


> Hi Shed,
> 
> How do you spend the $40 ? I have been using Coopers Cans @$12 and White Sugar (sorry) at about $2.50. I assume you are buying hops and using other yeast ?
> 
> Sandy.



At the end of my kit brewing days i was regularly spending >$40 per 23L batch

Kit - $15
Can of unhopped extract - $12-15
Spec grains - $2.50 - $5.
Hops - $5
Yeast - $5.


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## Shed101

That's pretty much what i'm doing - except reusing yeast.


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## 501

struth, 
once you go above $40 that's getting up to fresh wort prices?
not inc postage etc if applicable.


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## earle

My kits or extract with bits come in a bit over $30. Fresh wort kits are not an option for me because of freight, also a lot of control is taken out of your hands. I like researching a beer style and deciding what ingredients to use. Granted I don't have as much choice compared to AG.


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## Brewme

My Oxford dictionary defines 'Home Brew' as "Beer or other alcoholic drink brewed at home".

I guess it depends on where the BEER is brewed.

If a BEER is brewed, from kit, extract or other form, at home, then that BEER would be classified as home brew.

I do agree that BEER made at home tastes different to commercially, mass manufactured beer.

Once you have crafted a BEER at home to your liking, and enjoy a few, there is no going back to your previously preferred commercial beer. Actually, the commercial stuff will taste 'off'.

Commercial beer is mass produced at a speed to get it to the consumer as soon as possible. It sure doesn't have the aroma or great taste it used to have when I had my first taste (about 45+ years) ago. In those days Reschs used to be my preferred drop. In those days beer was referred to as 'Nectar Of The Gods'. Today it's just a hopped, flavoured alcoholic beverage.

I have made a few Coopers kit BEERS at home and have settled on the Canadian Blonde and European Lager. Made to instructions with the addition of their No1 and No2 brew enhancer kits. I'm currently brewing a European Lager with Saflager S-23 yeast to taste the difference.

Keep at it and I'm sure you'll brew a BEER at home that you will be proud of.

Cheers


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## boobiedazzler

Brewme said:


> In those days Reschs used to be my preferred drop.



That reminds me, earlier in the week i was at the bottleshop, and a guy behind me was carrying a carton of resches to the counter. Simultaneous to this moment, but unrelated to him or me,one staff member asked another "where are the Tooheys cartons in the coolroom", Mr Reshes pipes up and says to no-one in particular "who bloody cares, its a shit beer anyway". 

I would have liked to turn to him and say "nice call, ya drongo spastic, enjoy your goddamn resches" but I bit my tongue.


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## benno1973

DrSmurto said:


> ...AG can make a wider range of beers using fresh ingredients and you have total control over the process....



Spot on. Control over the process and ingredients is the major reason for switching to AG. Kit beers can be good, can be great in fact, but you don't have the same ability to tweak the final product like you do with AG. Like Dolmio, you can open the jar and make a few minor changes (add a bit of basil and pepper) but at the end of the day the base of the product is still going to be the same. You don't have the choice of using Roma tomatoes or cherry tomatoes, yellow rather than red capsicums, maldon sea salt rather than iodised table salt, etc etc. And thats the reason I make beer, cheese, sausages, salami, yoghurt, bread, and anything else that I can make at home with just a little more effort.


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## tavas

HoppingMad said:


> One thing has been neglected in this kit vs extract vs AG debate.
> 
> Competition results - a true test of what is best.
> 
> When you look at comps like VicBrew you'll see plenty of kits and bits beers winning and beating a field of all-grainers and extracters. And plenty or extracts winning, and plenty of AG beers too. It's pretty even.
> 
> I can't speak for every year, but the 2006 VicBrew book I referred to lists 7 kit and bit winners that thumped the rest.
> There was even an Imperial Stout winning brew was a double can kit with a few additions!
> 
> So let's get some perspective here. I think it is not about the tools you have at your disposal. But how you use them.
> 
> You can still win a race with a Mini Minor if those driving the Ferrari can't get out of first gear.
> 
> Hopper.



I agree

It all depends on what you define as "good beer". Some award winning wines are nasty, but judges look for different characteristics to what the average drinker likes.

VB is a terrible drop, but is the largest selling beer in Australia.

Some people think Paris Hilton is pretty.

it's all about your perspective.


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