# Berliner Weisse starter?



## 2much2spend (20/10/15)

I need some advice, I got a wyeast 3191 and I'm wanting to do a Berliner Weisse brew but the yeast is out of date so I'm going to make a starter with a us05 addition.
So my question is with the starter do I have to leave it for a longer period for the sour, tart to develop? 
Also does the lacto need to be stepped up (like the yeast) or will it just need more time in the starter and the keg?
I'm looking to do a 50ltr brew.

Appreciate some good input.


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## Cannibal Smurf (20/10/15)

Why are you adding US-05 to your starter?
If you have an out of date 3191, make a starter from it and see if it fires solo. If it does, pitch it... if it doesn't, then you were only going to end up with US-05 anyway.


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## 2much2spend (20/10/15)

Good point! I haven't had much luck with old packets


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## hirschb (21/10/15)

The answer is going to depend on how sour you like your Berliners!
Lacto will not die off at nearly the same rate as sacch yeast. If your packet is old, you'll likely have a strong initial lacto activity, followed by a slower sacch fermentation. This should result in a Berliner with greater acidity (I normally do a 100% lacto start, then add sacch when I get down to the desired pH). I like my Berliners very sour, so as long as the packet isn't more than 5-6 months old, I would personally use the packet as is. I think you have three good options:
Moderate/low sour- Make a starter with 5-10 IBU wort. This will inhibit (but not kill) the lacto, and increase your sacch cell-count.
Medium sour- Make a normal starter. You will not have the exact lacto/sacch ratio as Wyeast intended, but this will get you the closest (and this is probably the safest option).
Very sour- Dump the packet in "as is." If you are really worried that the sacch is close to dead, pitch half the packet in the wort, and half in a starter. After the starter is good, decant, & dump into the beer.


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## cke11y (21/10/15)

I get good results from these berliner blends although some folks say the opposite. 

I basically agree with hirschb with some differences. 

Dump the packet as normal (although you cannot make 50l with one packet of course... Berliner starters built up to a bigger cell count lose lacto abilities) find a corner of your house you don't care about too much, preferably a small room. Stick an electic heater on full blast right in front of your fermenters and let the room get super hot for 48hrs. Now turn the heaters off. Move your fermenters to a cooler spot. Add a half vial/packet of kolsch yeast after 4 days total if you're really worried about the sacch ability of your blended yeast. Try us05 by all means instead of kolsch... I just think it's cleaner and better suited to low Ibu. 

This will get you to a 'normal' sour level for the style. I think?

This method saves starter creation at all. And perhaps you could get away with making 40l off your single packet by adding the kolsch yeast?


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## mje1980 (21/10/15)

cke11y said:


> I get good results from these berliner blends although some folks say the opposite.
> I basically agree with hirschb with some differences.
> Dump the packet as normal (although you cannot make 50l with one packet of course... Berliner starters built up to a bigger cell count lose lacto abilities) find a corner of your house you don't care about too much, preferably a small room. Stick an electic heater on full blast right in front of your fermenters and let the room get super hot for 48hrs. Now turn the heaters off. Move your fermenters to a cooler spot. Add a half vial/packet of kolsch yeast after 4 days total if you're really worried about the sacch ability of your blended yeast. Try us05 by all means instead of kolsch... I just think it's cleaner and better suited to low Ibu.
> This will get you to a 'normal' sour level for the style. I think?
> This method saves starter creation at all. And perhaps you could get away with making 40l off your single packet by adding the kolsch yeast?


The best one I've done was similar to this. Pitched straight lacto for a few days then 1007 German ale ( small starter though at 1.032 might not be needed ). I added cherries to half the batch, awesome.


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## Dips Me Lid (21/10/15)

Here's a great article on fast souring techniques with lacto.
http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/


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## hirschb (21/10/15)

cke11y said:


> Stick an electic heater on full blast right in front of your fermenters and let the room get super hot for 48hrs.


This method is standard when using initial 100% lacto fermentations. Keep in mind that this method is tailored to lacto strains that do best at ~38-49C. I believe, but am not 100% positive, that Wyeast is using a strain of lacto (probably brevis), that does fine at 27-38C. As long as the fermentor isn't too cold (below 27), I wouldn't worry too much about raising the temp. Ideally, you would monitor the pH, and add additional sacch when ready.
Another potential method is to dump the packet in with no aeration. This should favor lacto production, and make the sacch slower to start. Then, right before adding the additional sacch, churn the fermentor around or use an oxygenation stone to get the wort properly aerated.


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## hirschb (21/10/15)

And somebody really needs to import this stuff into Australia:
http://www.omegayeast.com/?portfolio=lactobacillus-blend
I'll see what I can do......


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## GalBrew (21/10/15)

If you are interested in fast souring methods, check out 'milk the funk' on Facebook. A lot of the yanks use lacto capsules (like yakult) from health food stores with great results.


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## 2much2spend (21/10/15)

GalBrew said:


> If you are interested in fast souring methods, check out 'milk the funk' on Facebook. A lot of the yanks use lacto capsules (like yakult) from health food stores with great results.


Well it's not so much that I want a fast lacto, I just want to make sure that it's not like under pitching yeast (off flavors and the sort). 
I know when you strain Brett it can go either way with flavour contributions.


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## Weizguy (21/10/15)

2much2spend said:


> I need some advice, I got a wyeast 3191 and I'm wanting to do a Berliner Weisse brew but the yeast is out of date so I'm going to make a starter with a us05 addition.
> So my question is with the starter do I have to leave it for a longer period for the sour, tart to develop?
> Also does the lacto need to be stepped up (like the yeast) or will it just need more time in the starter and the keg?
> I'm looking to do a 50ltr brew.
> ...


Expecting other than good input?

I have one of those yeasts, and will try it again soon. Could be a waste of time, as all 3 beers I have tasted, made with this yeast blend, taste very strongly of bad, wild yeast phenolics. Am thinking that it's not true to style with those characters.

I have made a few decent Berliners, and find that a sour mash addition is good, or a lacto ferment prior to the main beer yeast should provide enough sourness. If not, you can supplement with lactic acid post-ferment to boost the sourness, but you'll need to give it at least a month for those acid flavours to integrate


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## GalBrew (21/10/15)

2much2spend said:


> Well it's not so much that I want a fast lacto, I just want to make sure that it's not like under pitching yeast (off flavors and the sort).
> I know when you strain Brett it can go either way with flavour contributions.


Either way, it will open your mind to methods of souring that don't get kicked around here very often. There are also plenty of tips, tricks and pics.


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## Dips Me Lid (21/10/15)

I'll second Milk The Funk, lots of good info in the group and on their wiki page.

I'm kicking up two lacto starters this weekend, one from Jalna Greek yoghurt and one from probiotic capsules, both destined for berlinner's.


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## 2much2spend (21/10/15)

I might do a kettle sour probably got the best control of the lot


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## Fents (21/10/15)

you're a sour :lol: :chug:


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## Weizguy (21/10/15)

Dips Me Lid said:


> I'll second Milk The Funk, lots of good info in the group and on their wiki page.
> 
> I'm kicking up two lacto starters this weekend, one from Jalna Greek yoghurt and one from probiotic capsules, both destined for berlinner's.


What about one from raw wheat or malt, thrown into a low gravity starter, and kept at about 38°C in a Thermos overnight and cultured up to a higher volume?


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## Dips Me Lid (21/10/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> What about one from raw wheat or malt, thrown into a low gravity starter, and kept at about 38°C in a Thermos overnight and cultured up to a higher volume?


That will work, I've seen a couple of different threads on it, I believe the downside is not knowing what strains of Lacto are present on the grain.

From what I've read different strains have different sweet spots temperature wise to maximize clean lactic acid production and minimize off flavour development like butyric acid.

The probiotic capsules I'm using are one strain, Lactobacillus Plantarum, supposedly a good one to work with.
The yoghurt is a blend of Lacto Casei and Lacto Acidophilus.

It'll be an interesting experiment to test them both on a split wort.


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## GalBrew (21/10/15)

If you are going to kettle sour I would recommend purging as much oxygen from your vessel as possible. Will reduce the chances of 'bad stank' getting in during the souring period.


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## mje1980 (21/10/15)

2much2spend said:


> I might do a kettle sour probably got the best control of the lot



Make very sure you have good temp control. I lost a batch to clostridium. You do NOT want that, it is the most disgusting shit ever. Eat a block of Parmesan then spew it back up smells about right.


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## Dips Me Lid (21/10/15)

I'm gonna rack the wort into purged kegs and pitch the lacto in, seems like the best way to avoid oxygen at a homebrew level.


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## 2much2spend (21/10/15)

Fents said:


> you're a sour :lol: :chug:


. 
Your weird mate stop harassing me !


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## hirschb (22/10/15)

Dips Me Lid said:


> I'm gonna rack the wort into purged kegs and pitch the lacto in, seems like the best way to avoid oxygen at a homebrew level.


Yeah, this is the best way to do it!
After I move, I'm planning to start a "sour beer" keg that will permanently be filled with a multi-lacto/pedio culture. This soured wort base can then be added/blended to other beers as needed (pasteurized or not depending on the beer). Ideally, I'd keep the wort free from yeast contamination.


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## hirschb (22/10/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> What about one from raw wheat or malt, thrown into a low gravity starter, and kept at about 38°C in a Thermos overnight and cultured up to a higher volume?


This works, but is also a crap-shoot. If you try this, you absolutely MUST make sure that the wort is not exposed to oxygen!!!!
If not, you will get all sorts of nasty crap growing in the wort.
It's also good to have a low pH starter if using this method. Your chances of getting something you don't want are much higher if you don't use a low pH wort (I'd go find some food grade lactic acid).


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## hirschb (22/10/15)

Good reading!
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus


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## Dips Me Lid (22/10/15)

hirschb said:


> Yeah, this is the best way to do it!
> After I move, I'm planning to start a "sour beer" keg that will permanently be filled with a multi-lacto/pedio culture. This soured wort base can then be added/blended to other beers as needed (pasteurized or not depending on the beer). Ideally, I'd keep the wort free from yeast contamination.


That's pretty much my exact plan as well! I think it will provide the Bacteria a chance to build up nicely. I'm planning on attempting the same idea in another keg with a bottle dreg culture I've been propping up for a month.


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## 2much2spend (22/10/15)

hirschb said:


> Good reading!
> http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus


. 
That's good reading, really good!


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## OneEye (22/10/15)

The way I've always done mine is to do the mash and run off into the BK as usual. Then throw some raw wheat into it (bagged up of course). Then I put some good ol' glad wrap on the top, connect a CO2 hose to either your sight glass or your tap and bubble CO2 through the wort. This pushes out any O2 and puts a nice protective layer of CO2 on top of your wort. Leave it at ~40C and taste it over the next 36-48 hours (or more!) By tasting it regularly you can see how the acidity develops and when it gets to where you want it you boil it for 15-20 mins (kills bacteria and sanitises your kettle again) and from here on out you treat it as a normal beer. Ferment it with whatever yeast you like... something nice and neutral will do the trick. Always produces a good drop for me and I can control just how acidic I want it to be.


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## 2much2spend (22/10/15)

OneEye said:


> The way I've always done mine is to do the mash and run off into the BK as usual. Then throw some raw wheat into it (bagged up of course). Then I put some good ol' glad wrap on the top, connect a CO2 hose to either your sight glass or your tap and bubble CO2 through the wort. This pushes out any O2 and puts a nice protective layer of CO2 on top of your wort. Leave it at ~40C and taste it over the next 36-48 hours (or more!) By tasting it regularly you can see how the acidity develops and when it gets to where you want it you boil it for 15-20 mins (kills bacteria and sanitises your kettle again) and from here on out you treat it as a normal beer. Ferment it with whatever yeast you like... something nice and neutral will do the trick. Always produces a good drop for me and I can control just how acidic I want it to be.


 what's your method for retaining the temp?


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## OneEye (22/10/15)

You could use an STC, or people using urns could just set and forget


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## dannymars (22/10/15)

I make a kettle cocoon, and use an stc + submersible aquarium heater (with the thermostat turned all the way up AKA off)... 

I use a mixture of grain starter and pro-biotics... keep the temp 40C and avoid O2 (I have gladwrap directly in contact with the surface of the wort and going up the sides of the kettle. can get very sour very quickly, monitor it often.


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## super_simian (22/10/15)

mje1980 said:


> Make very sure you have good temp control. I lost a batch to clostridium. You do NOT want that, it is the most disgusting shit ever. Eat a block of Parmesan then spew it back up smells about right.


I posted this then read your post - so right!


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## sharpcliff (29/10/15)

http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/49531/Ethical-Nutrients-IBS-Support-30-Capsules

These are a great source of 100% lacto Plantarum. I mix it 50/50 with white lab's lacto brevis to make my own version of the omega lacto blend. 1 litre starter will do ya. 3 pills plus a vial. 1.040 starter wort w/ 10% apple juice and nutrient held around 40c for 48 hours. That'll get you pretty far, so long as you don't add any hops until AFTER souring. VERY sour after 48-72 hours.


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## 2much2spend (29/10/15)

sharpcliff said:


> http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/49531/Ethical-Nutrients-IBS-Support-30-Capsules
> 
> These are a great source of 100% lacto Plantarum. I mix it 50/50 with white lab's lacto brevis to make my own version of the omega lacto blend. 1 litre starter will do ya. 3 pills plus a vial. 1.040 starter wort w/ 10% apple juice and nutrient held around 40c for 48 hours. That'll get you pretty far, so long as you don't add any hops until AFTER souring. VERY sour after 48-72 hours.


I think I'll try that, I got some lacto brevis coming tomorrow. 
That pitch will do what size brew? 
what pH did you look to get to?
How did you keep the o2 out when kettle souring?


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## sharpcliff (9/11/15)

That'll do a 23 litre batch. Just did it again but this time with a slightly larger pitch (4 pills plus a splash of Brevis) and kept at 40c and at 3.35pH after 24 hours. I usually reach about 3.2 though I'll boil soon I reckon. Think I got a bit of yeast in there because there's more airlock activity than usual!

I sour in a better bottle because souring in my aluminium kettle is a bad idea. Strips that oxide layer clean off. I don't purge because I don't have a tank. Just keep an airlock on it. Keeping o2 away is always a good idea, but not nearly as crucial as when you're inoculating with grain. Much less competing bacteria when you're sanitary and pitch a more pure culture.


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## sharpcliff (9/11/15)

Make sure to gently rouse the pills contents in the starter a couple of times over the first 24 hours when making the starter. I twist the flask. The pill's contents can just sink to the bottom and be slow to start unless mixed in a bit.


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## BJB (20/11/15)

So do make a hole in the capsules and sqeeze the contents out or chuck them in as is? About to give this a go.


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## BJB (20/11/15)

BJB said:


> So do make a hole in the capsules and sqeeze the contents out or chuck them in as is? About to give this a go.


OK so it was powder in the capsules, all sorted and starter going!


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## sharpcliff (21/11/15)

Yup. The capsules pull apart pretty easily. Try not to spill it too much when they pop open


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## BJB (21/11/15)

The starter has been going for around 24 hours, very little sourness as yet. Sitting at around 39C.


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## krausenhaus (21/11/15)

I'm having my first crack at kettle souring at the moment.

I put a vial of WLP672 straight into 25 litres. I'm keeping it at 35 degrees at the moment. White Labs give the temp range as 21-35 but I feel like it'll be too slow if I keep it much cooler. 

Does anyone have experience using a direct pitch of WLP672? How fast should I expect it to sour? I'm four hours in and there has been no pH change as yet.


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## luggy (21/11/15)

I don't think a starter is required for bacteria, you have to remember that bacteria reproduces every 20-30 mins so you'll have plenty of cells in no time. I don't think that bacteria gets stressed as much as yeast does either.

I was speaking to a commercial brewer a while back and he said that he used a single wyeast smack pack to kettle sour a 500L batch which only took something like 48 hours to reach the desired acidity. Food for thought


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