# Cube Bitterness?



## balconybrewer (10/10/08)

hi all,

i have been AGing for about 4 months now and have only 'no chilled', i have started to try other brews and am noticing that my brews are way more bitter compared with others of similar ibus

i.e. i have brewed a couple of plaes ales to about 30ibu but they are bitter as all hell, they are as bitter as a 50 ibu IPA

is this a result of the wort sitting near boiling point in the cube for a long time with hops still in there.............?

have i missed a step in 'no chilling' by which hops need to be strained before it is cubed, and yes i do whirlpool but i still get a fair bit of trub into the cube.

any advice appreciated. cheers


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## Adamt (10/10/08)

Do you have a pick up tube or anything?

Do you use flowers or pellets?

I'm assuming it IS hop bitterness and not yeast-derived as it's just popped up since you've no-chilled.


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## buttersd70 (10/10/08)

For one thing, the bitterness is relative. a 30 IBU can be more bitter from a sensory perspective than a 40 or even a 50 IBU, depending on the OG and FG of the relative beers. Hence the common use of BU:GU, and the more accurate, but less utilised BV scale.

Were the OG and FG of the beers in question simmilar? were there any major differences in the grain bills, especially in the specialty malts? Were there any process changes, particularly any that would effect utilisation?


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## NickB (10/10/08)

Hi,

I do find that no-chilling adds some bitterness to the finished beer, but I don't think it would be much more than 5 IBU or so at most. I've taken to bittering my beers on the low end of the scale and just factoring in an additional couple of points of bitterness.

I've also noticed a lack of flavour an aroma from all my NC beers. Lately I've been just adding a bittering addition, and then a flameout for flavour. I'm tending to get the aroma from a dry hop addition.

I'm playing around with my hop schedules to see how I can best balance the beers...will post my results when I know them!

As for the trub, I whirlpool but I'm using my Hop Sock again (available from the above sponsors, no affiliation, yada yada) and I'm getting significantly less trub making its way into the cube and the fermenter, not that it should hurt your resulting beer at all though!


Cheers


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## matti (10/10/08)

This could be because you *may* carry a fair bit of trub and hops into the fermenter.
My first lot of no chills I managed to get a fair bit of trub into it.
I ended up racking it off the trub and cold break before it went into the fermenter.

If you whirl pool and check this out.

Linky


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## Tim (10/10/08)

The increased bitterness could be due to water chemistry. If your water is hard, it will make the bitterness stand our a lot more. Its like drinking Pilsner Urquell and Baron's ESB. The Pils is 40 ibu and hardly tastes bitter at all due to the soft water. The Baron's ESB is 30 ibu and tastes quite bitter due to the pseudo Burton on Trent water profile.


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## buttersd70 (10/10/08)

Tim said:


> The increased bitterness could be due to water chemistry. If your water is hard, it will make the bitterness stand our a lot more. Its like drinking Pilsner Urquell and Baron's ESB. The Pils is 40 ibu and hardly tastes bitter at all due to the soft water. The Baron's ESB is 30 ibu and tastes quite bitter due to the pseudo Burton on Trent water profile.



You're right in what you're saying, but....
I wouldn't have thought that it would make a difference to the same brewer using the same water supply....unless there is dabbling with water chem as part of the brewing practice? If there is no additions to the water, this would not change batch to batch for the same brewer (in most cases. Yes, water supplies vary, but surely not that much in such a short period?)


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## Tim (10/10/08)

Ryan says he has always no chilled, so its unlikely that no chilling is causing the extra bitterness. What I did assume is that he is comparing with commercial beers of known bitterness, not beers brewed by other brewers with the same water.

I still think its hard water or allowing late hop additions into the cube - probably both


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## buttersd70 (10/10/08)

Tim said:


> What I did assume is that he is comparing with commercial beers of known bitterness, not beers brewed by other brewers with the same water.



I thought he was comparing what he is currently brewing to his own previous brews. 

Ryan, can you clarify, please, what exactly are you comparing these bitter brews to? I see where tims coming from, cos you're initial description could be interpreted either way.


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## warra48 (10/10/08)

Port Macquarie does not really have hard water.
Here is our local water profile, which I received direct from our local council.

Name: Port Macquarie
PH: 7.0

Calcium: 11.3
Magnesium: 3.9
Sodium: 12.0
Sulfate: 3.6
Chloride: 18.0
Bicarbonate: 44.7


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## balconybrewer (10/10/08)

i have tried other friends brews of similar grain and hop schedules and IBU's and BU:GU and can notice a big difference in bitterness,

maybe i need to add a false bottom to my kettle or use a hop sock if i want to keep 'no-chilling'

cheere


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## troydo (10/10/08)

I can tell you this:

No chilling definatly increases your bitterness and decreases your aroma/flavour. 

I have had very similar results to NickB, and have also moved to just bittering and flameout, maybe some dry hop for aroma.

Its pretty simple, you boil hops for longer to get more bitterness, when you no chill you are effectivly keeping the hop compounds (flavour and aroma) almost at boiling (80-90 degrees) for a longer period of time therefore convertying some of theem to bitterness.

I have also found that its probably about 5IBU of difference so i always bitter my beer to 5 ibu less than i want.

I have also found that different hops have different amounts of "extra bittering" from cubing, i think that probably has something to do with teh Beta and alpha... not sure about that part....

thats my experience anyway, YMMV


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## balconybrewer (10/10/08)

*Troydo,

that makes sense to me and that was what i was getting @. and as you said it is simple, but i dont quite understanding the flavour hops then..... wouldnt they just totally convert to bitterness andresult in no flavour and aroma for that matter??????

that said i guess i can combat this by filtering out the hops before the wort goes into the cube, or do the flavour and aroma oils just convert to bitterness even though the pellets are removed............?

so many questions now i have a better think about it. cheers*


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## PostModern (10/10/08)

Isomerisation of alpha acids after flame out is negligible. Perhaps I just know my system, but I usually get exactly the bitterness I'm aiming for.

Of the guys who aren't getting enough flavour and aroma from whirlpool additions, what amount of hops do you add? Pellets or flowers? How long do you whirlpool?


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## Thirsty Boy (10/10/08)

Troydo said:


> I can tell you this:
> 
> No chilling definatly increases your bitterness and decreases your aroma/flavour.
> 
> ...



No-Chilling is almost destined to increase your bitterness - if you add late boil hops. The alpha acids from your 30min and 5min hops are going to stay dissolved and keep right on isomerising the whole time the cube is hot. There is no phsical agitation and the heat is lower than in a boil, so it wont be as high a rate, but its still going to happen.

The last two beers I made, I no-chilled taking this stuff into account.

The beers got no "late" hops, although they did get a small 30min addition for complexity in flavour - I do "cube hop" which I more or less treat as a flavour addition, it also gives a reasonably significant amount of bittering ( I calculate it to be the equivalent of a 20min addition with the same amount of hops) For aroma, there are no kettle additions or cube additions at all. - I *Ultra Late Hop* using a technique that is very similar to the "French Press Hopping" technique describe recently in BYO and on Basic Brewing Radio.

The Aroma addition is not added until 2/3rds of fermentation is complete - The hops are placed in a french press coffee maker, stirred and steeped for about 1min - then its pressed and the hot liquid is poured into the primary - the process is repeated to "sparge" the hops. You could steep for longer if you want, but I am trying to emulate the short contact time and rapid cooling you get from a hopback, so I keep the contact time to less than one minute.

The Vienna Lager that won champion beer at vicbrew - was aroma hopped in this fashion, although in its case, the hop juice was poured directly into the pre-filter keg and the beer was lagered for several weeks before filtering. I found that this gave a "vegetal" edge to the hoppiness, but it dissipated nicely with filtering and lagering. When the Ultra Late Hops are added to the fermentor... the vegetal thing does not seem to happen, but the hop character is not quite as pronounced.

The reason for all that versus a simple dry hop.... well, it doesn't smell or taste like dry hop, it smells and tastes like late addition hops.

I will keep experimenting with this as an easy way to compensate for the aroma decrease I see in no chill - so far I am happy with the results and I think it can be refined to te point where the affect of No-Chill on hop flavour/aroma can be completely compensated for.

Thirsty


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## buttersd70 (10/10/08)

ryanmoore184 said:


> i have tried other friends brews of similar grain and hop schedules and IBU's and BU:GU and can notice a big difference in bitterness,
> 
> maybe i need to add a false bottom to my kettle or use a hop sock if i want to keep 'no-chilling'
> 
> cheere



I agree that no chill will increase the bitterness. The degree to which it does so will depend, though, on how much late addition hop is in the brew. THis is one of the reasons I was hesitant to try NC, because bitter beers are not my thing at all. (I now NC all my beers, my late addition hops are in quite small amounts anyway, and the difference NC makes, at least in my case, is discernable, but not excessive)

But, here's a thought.....if your friends beer has similar IBU and BU:GU, and yours is (from what you are saying) a *lot *more bitter, are you using the same utilisation formulas? And are you using the same brewing software? If, for example, one is getting 30IBU using Rager, and the other is getting 30IBU using tinseth, then both will be "30IBU" but will be very different indeed......My understanding is that, even if using the 'same' formula (Tinseth comes to mind), promash will give different IBU level to Beersmith for identical recipes (I don't use promash myself, so can't check this, but I have read elswhere that this is the case. Can anyone using both programmes confirm or deny this?)

Not saying this is what _is _happenening, just offering it as a possibility.


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## ikern (10/10/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> The Aroma addition is not added until 2/3rds of fermentation is complete - The hops are placed in a french press coffee maker, stirred and steeped for about 1min - then its pressed and the hot liquid is poured into the primary - the process is repeated to "sparge" the hops. You could steep for longer if you want, but I am trying to emulate the short contact time and rapid cooling you get from a hopback, so I keep the contact time to less than one minute.



Thanks for the informative (as usual) post TB. I have to say I have in some cases been underwhelmed with the flavour and aroma coming through in some of my NC brews. 

My last brew, a cerveza-y ale-ish thing had the Glacier cube hopped so I've got higher hopes for the lemonless lemon flavour to come through. My next few brews will be some D-Saaz and NS summer ales so I think I'll give the ULH method a go as well.

Cheers :icon_cheers: 

Soz


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## PostModern (10/10/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> ( I calculate it to be the equivalent of a 20min addition with the same amount of hops)



I doubt it would be that high. According to Beersmith, a 20 min addition of 28g of EKG in 40L gives 6 IBUs. I don't account for bitterness at all from my flameout additions, but there might be something to it. I have two cubes of Bitter sitting waiting for a ferment. I gave it 35IBUs or POR and Warrior at 60 mins and in the 40litre boil, it got 50g of EKG at flameout. So that should add ~10.7 IBUs. Will get some IBU members to taste the beer once fermented and see if they can estimate the IBUs. It'll either be 35 if late additions count for nothing, 45 if you're right with a 20 min bitterness equivalence, or somewhere in between.


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## troydo (10/10/08)

Thats really good stuff TB, I will have to try that, because some beers need the aroma without the dryhop grassyness...

HMM things to think about....


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## balconybrewer (10/10/08)

great response TB, thanks heaps, sounds like alot of work but, thats why i went for the cubing option.

just bumping this one too get some more opinions, do most people agree with TB or do some just stick the the standard hop additions i.e. 60mins, 20mins, 5mins and make sure they just allow for a little extra bitterness from the cube???

a scenario that most of us can relate to is probably dr smurtos JSGA clone, do the no chillers out there stick to his hop schedule and just lower the 60mins addition....? maybe drS even nochills himself........?

cheers


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## matti (10/10/08)

My latest brew I ended First wort hopping. (FWH)
I added the bitterness @ 45 min
then again at 30 min
flame out hop i added to cube. the recipe says 7 g but i actually added 14g (1 plug)
Recipe
I am either going to ferment with s-189 or 2206 Bavarian Lager yeast.

I tasted the wort and it one could detect some bitterness coming through the sweet wort no after taste.

I chose this hop-schedule to see if it will add any hop flavour to the lager.
My 1st lager/no chill, had Zero hop coming through but turned out very malty/ North German style.

This one will be great summer-quencher if it turns out good. :icon_cheers: 
matti


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## hoohaaman (10/10/08)

Hi matti ,have been reading a bit about FWH lately.

Have you substituted entire late editions to FWH,or do you hold some back for the actual time?

What I've read so far,I like the idea of FWH.

Cheers


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## matti (10/10/08)

I took out 1/3 of 60, 45, and 30 minutes and FWH:ed.
I thing I've read that 20% is the ball -park figure.
Cheers
EDIT: Just to clarify. thr 60 minutes hop was added with the 45 min hops.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/10/08)

Pomo - I dont calculate that "20min" figure from whirpool additions or late additions - thats from a bit of stocking with the hops in it, actually shoved in the cube. It stays there till I ferment. I suspect that late hop additions that dont transfer the physical hops to the cube would be much less. Probably on the order of 5 IBU depending I suppose on the type and amount of late addition hops - if its a 3.5% hallertau.... nothing much I guess - but a 15.5% galaxy.... I'd probably go with whatever you would get from a 5min addition.

Interestingly, I heard some pro-brewers on the Brewing Network or Basic Brewing discussing flameout/whirlpool utilisation and bitterness. I cant recall the numbers precisely, but they were definitely suggesting that a whirpool addition adds IBU's ... I think they were calculating it as a 10min addition??? or something close-ish to that anyway.


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## hoohaaman (11/10/08)

matti said:


> I took out 1/3 of 60, 45, and 30 minutes and FWH:ed.
> I thing I've read that 20% is the ball -park figure.
> Cheers
> EDIT: Just to clarify. thr 60 minutes hop was added with the 45 min hops.



Ok so 1/3 of 60 min addition was added with the 45 min.hops.Oh dear confusing myself more.

Might stick to 20% of late addition hops.

Cheers


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## Stuster (11/10/08)

Well, rather than wake the beast that is the original no-chill thread  I thought I'd post in this thread around my experiment. Finally, after nearly two years of promising off and on to do this, I've got round to doing a no-chill experiment. A double batch of APA - half run off to a cube, the other half then chilled. Both pitched with the same yeast - in this case second generation slurry of WLP008 East Coast Ale from an American Wheat/Rye. I chose an APA to see what the effects of chilling are on late hopping, especially aroma. This yeast is pretty clean so should help to work out 

As an experiment it has its shortcomings. The chilled part was obviously in contact with the hops and trub for a period while the no-chill part was run off but I estimate this was only around fifteen minutes which many people do anyway as an aroma steep. There was probably a bit more trub/hops that got through into the chilled part as this was the bottom part and a bit of it ran off towards the end.

The two parts are not quite the same size and the yeast pitching rate certainly won't be any more precise than my eyeballs can make it. The temperature of pitch may well not be identical either. But to give me a sense of how much of a difference chilling makes on aroma, I'm hoping these issues are not enough to influence the outcome. I'll take some along to a brew club meeting in due time and see if we can do a triangle test and see if people can taste/smell a big difference.

So any suggestions on what I can do now or what I've done wrong.


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## balconybrewer (12/10/08)

great experiment suster, i look forward to hearing the results


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## jimmyjack (12/10/08)

I have noticed a significant amount of extra bitterness in my beers that have increased late additions. I recently brewed an APA and had to change the style because the bitterness was more like an IPA. I believe it adds more than 5 IBU more like 15. Its not the water as most of my beers are brewed with very soft tank water. 
My beers with small late additions do not have the increase bitterness. I have started to adjust my bittering timings to account for this and it has helped but is in no way a solution. I will try the boil screen like others to see if that stops it from continuing to bitter in the cube.


Cheers,

Jim


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## PostModern (12/10/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Pomo - I dont calculate that "20min" figure from whirpool additions or late additions - thats from a bit of stocking with the hops in it, actually shoved in the cube. It stays there till I ferment. I suspect that late hop additions that dont transfer the physical hops to the cube would be much less. Probably on the order of 5 IBU depending I suppose on the type and amount of late addition hops - if its a 3.5% hallertau.... nothing much I guess - but a 15.5% galaxy.... I'd probably go with whatever you would get from a 5min addition.
> 
> Interestingly, I heard some pro-brewers on the Brewing Network or Basic Brewing discussing flameout/whirlpool utilisation and bitterness. I cant recall the numbers precisely, but they were definitely suggesting that a whirpool addition adds IBU's ... I think they were calculating it as a 10min addition??? or something close-ish to that anyway.



I see. I misread your post. My system gets beer completely free of hop residue in to the cube, and as the whirlpool hops spend less than a few mins in the wort... for me, the late hops add almost nothing in the way of bitterness no matter how much I use. I guess it would be less than completely insignificant with high alpha hops, but again, not enough of a worry given my technique. I tend to keep high alpha for 60 mins and aroma hops for the end. Tho I have used Amarillo as a whirlpool addition, but it was in an already bitter brew, so even 10IBUs would have been unnoticeable.

As I see it, very simplistically, it seems, hops serve two purposes. The bitterring compounds need to isomerise, and the aroma/flavour compounds just need to dissolve into the wort. So two additions, one for bitterness with plenty of boil time, one for aroma, with zero boil time. All this balancing between 20,15,10,5 minute stuff... *shrug*


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## gerald (25/10/08)

I use a hop bag from craft brewer so i get no hop trub stuff in my cube when i no chill. that said i have only used it a couple of times and the aroma of these beers has been much lower than i hoped. flame out editions dont seem to be doing much. I might try TB's technique next time and see if that gets me more flavour/aroma.

great info in this thread guys.


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## Tony (25/10/08)

I do both........ i make 27 liter batches to no chill and 52 liter batches that are chilled and pitched for kegging.

I have found that a nochilled beer with a lot of late hops has a higher bitterness than i am usually after. To combat this i set my flameout addition in promash at 5 min to account for the extra utilisation while sitting hot in the kettle for 10 min and then in the cube. I have a falsie in my smaller no chilling kettle and get no hops in the cube.

I have also noticed a los of hop aroma in no chilled beers. I can get plenty of flavour but aroma goes out the window compared to a chilled beer. To comabt this......... i just add more flame out hops hops :beerbang: I dont like dry hopping...... its the grassy thing. I like the flame out addition.

Another thing i use a lot is FWH and a later bittering addition.

I boil for 90 min, i add 10 ibu worth of hops at FWH and the remainder ar 45 min to go. I get fantastic results with this. Doesnt matter if its 3% SAAZ or 11% target..... i still only add 10 IBU at FWH. The amounts will change but it will be relative to the %AA and thus the amount used at 45 min.

I use... as mentioned.... Promash and have my bitterness set to Tensith. I account an extra 5% utilisation for FWH hops.

To be honest the settings in your brewing software can have a drastic effect on the beers bitterness depending on your hopping scedule. TDH (GT) on here helped me set up my promash bitterness calculation many years ago and they work perfectly. Always get the bitterness i want no mater when i add what hops.

I basicly have my bitterness set to give me a 10% increase in utilisation for pellet hops and a further 5% increase for FWH. That way the calcs are based on the base of flower hops........ processed hops will give more bitterness as will FWH'ing

Works great

Stuster........... your triel sounds like a cracker. Will be great to see your findings. I dont see a problem whit the ecperiments methods as a no chill beer will have run off the hops sooner than a beer that was chilled in my garage. No chill sits in the kettle for 10 min then cubed, chilled.......... could be an hour sometimes after i turn off the water and let it all settle out.

big difference

cheers


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## Peaka (25/10/08)

Can someone tell me what these cubes are? Are they another style of fermenter or something?


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## buttersd70 (25/10/08)

Peaka said:


> Can someone tell me what these cubes are? Are they another style of fermenter or something?



Just a food grade jerry can, such as the blue Willow brand ones, or similar. Usually a 20L one will hold more. (the Willow 20L ones, for example, actually hold 24L, just.)

edit. Pics of the other shape type in the how to NC article here


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## matti (25/10/08)

jimmyjack said:


> I have noticed a significant amount of extra bitterness in my beers that have increased late additions. I recently brewed an APA and had to change the style because the bitterness was more like an IPA. I believe it adds more than 5 IBU more like 15. Its not the water as most of my beers are brewed with very soft tank water.
> My beers with small late additions do not have the increase bitterness. I have started to adjust my bittering timings to account for this and it has helped but is in no way a solution. I will try the boil screen like others to see if that stops it from continuing to bitter in the cube.
> 
> 
> ...


If whirl pool addition give as much as 15 Ibu it think you may be exagurating( doya liek my speling?)

When no chilling I would add 60 minute addition at 45-50 minutes
And leave late addition a late as possible. 20 minute additon in recipe to about 15 and boost of flame out hops by 1/8 ish

Well that is the conclusion I get on listening to Jamil and you guys here.

Cheri0 matti 
It aint't all a science. Brewing is more like a feel of things thumb rule then some practice


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## stueywhytcross (17/11/08)

Stuster said:


> Well, rather than wake the beast that is the original no-chill thread  I thought I'd post in this thread around my experiment. Finally, after nearly two years of promising off and on to do this, I've got round to doing a no-chill experiment. A double batch of APA - half run off to a cube, the other half then chilled. Both pitched with the same yeast - in this case second generation slurry of WLP008 East Coast Ale from an American Wheat/Rye. I chose an APA to see what the effects of chilling are on late hopping, especially aroma. This yeast is pretty clean so should help to work out
> 
> As an experiment it has its shortcomings. The chilled part was obviously in contact with the hops and trub for a period while the no-chill part was run off but I estimate this was only around fifteen minutes which many people do anyway as an aroma steep. There was probably a bit more trub/hops that got through into the chilled part as this was the bottom part and a bit of it ran off towards the end.
> 
> ...



Any results yet Stuster?


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## clean brewer (17/11/08)

I just did my first AG 2 weeks ago and it was Drsmurtos JSGA, just racked it off to CC for now and when I tasted it, it was quite bitter, I no chilled as well and followed the hop schedule according to the recipe, I now can understand why it tasted quite bitter.. Obviously from sitting at a hot temperature for a longer time, Ill be adjusting my hop schedule in future to compensate for it..

:icon_cheers:


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## MCT (17/11/08)

matti said:


> If whirl pool addition give as much as 15 Ibu it think you may be exagurating( doya liek my speling?)
> 
> When no chilling I would add 60 minute addition at 45-50 minutes
> And leave late addition a late as possible. 20 minute additon in recipe to about 15 and boost of flame out hops by 1/8 ish
> ...



Interesting Matti, I might give this a go next time. I'm sure my cubed beers are more bitter than they should be.

Anyone else tried a similar hop schedule when doing no chill?
I have been experimenting with the flame out addition being added straight to the cube, but I still think the aromatics aren't quite there.


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## wambesi (17/11/08)

MCT said:


> Interesting Matti, I might give this a go next time. I'm sure my cubed beers are more bitter than they should be.
> 
> Anyone else tried a similar hop schedule when doing no chill?
> I have been experimenting with the flame out addition being added straight to the cube, but I still think the aromatics aren't quite there.



I found it quite bitter (well more than I was expecting) as well so adjusted it in my latest APA, did first taste the other day and it seemed better but I wont know for sure for another week or two at least.


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## matti (17/11/08)

I was in a hurry when I wrote that earlier post.

If you were to add all hop additions a little bit later I.e. 10-15 minutes.
Maybe boost your flame out additions a little. 
You may find that you can achieve a beer that results in having the IBUs desired with No chilling using a recipe designed for crash chilling.

The few things you need to keep in mind is:
No hop residue in the cube, that bitterness subsides with time and the BU:GU is at some sort of balance.

That any hop residue that has come with the break into cube will add to bitterness as the wort cools slowly.
Also break material in cube does affect the flavour some what even with bigger beers but less noticeably.

Crash chilling is a bit like mash outs.
It preserve the hop schedule as a mash out would preserve the conversion of the more complex sugar.

Without going further into the murky water of scientifically trying to achieve a beer.
With the above knowledge and application I am confident that every no-chiller can achieve a beer a palatable as the chiller.
Time to read a bed time story to my youngest
Cherio

Matti


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## kram (18/11/08)

I've no chilled from the beginning when I moved to AG. Flame out additions don't really exist anymore, I've shifted them to dry hops. I 'guesstimate' the late additions from chilled recipes and knock off 5-10 mins depending on the beer. I've taken Tonys approach (even though he's a chiller) recently and made bittering additions at 45 depending on the bittering hop. If it's a smooth as hell bittering hop 60 mins doesn't bother me. I don't have over bitter beers anymore but this could be due to the adjustments i've made over time. No real advice here! Like all systems, get to know its ins and outs and the beers balance out better.


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## Stuster (18/11/08)

disco stu said:


> Any results yet Stuster?



Well. Umm. Actually, there was a small issue with this experiment related to my poor labelling of fermenters. I did this batch, and a saison at the same time. Mixed up the no-chill one with the saison one and transferred the wrong one to secondary, bottling the wrong one. No wonder the two batches tasted different. :blink:  :lol: 

Anyway, all sorted out now but one batch was bottled two weeks before the other. Just waiting for the no-chill one to carb up and the yeast to clear in the bottle. Should be another week or so and then I'll get some tastings done.


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## matti (23/11/08)

Just reporting back on cube hopping.
I am currently drinking following recipe which has been in keg for about 3 weeks slowly carbing up and clearing without gelatine or finings of any kind.

I dropped a cascade plug weighing in at 14g from memory into cube no chilling.
I am detecting a slightly slick feeling on the tongue.
This could be many thing but it is a rather bitter number and not too displeasing.  

Hopefully I can leave it alone for another few weeks and see if it will change its flavour perception.


Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.60
Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.48
Anticipated SRM: 6.6
Anticipated IBU: 38.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 23.53 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG 11.53 Plato



Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Extract SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
54.3 2.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.030 2
21.7 1.00 kg. Munich Malt Australia 1.012 6
21.7 1.00 kg. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.012 3
2.2 0.10 kg. JWM Crystal 140 Australia 1.001 74

Extract represented as SG.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Perle Pellet 6.30 15.2 60 min.
28.35 g. Willamette Pellet 6.00 20.8 40 min.
12.00 g. Willamette Pellet 6.00 2.3 10 min.
10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
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S-05


Mash Schedule
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Mash Type: Single Step
Grain kg: 4.60

Water L: 16.56 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 3.60 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 65 Time: 60+
Mash-out Rest Temp : 72 Time: 15
Sparge Temp : 78 Time: 45


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## kabooby (23/11/08)

It's my understanding that in order to get bitterness from hops they need to be isomerised by boiling. Therefore hops at flameout, in the cube, dry hopped should add very little if any extra bitterness to your beer. 

I haven't done any experiments myself, but I have not noticed any extra bitterness from my beers in the cube. Even the ones with big flame out additions.

Kabooby :unsure:


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## Muggus (23/11/08)

This thread has changed my whole way of thinking.
I essentially no-chill my beers these days, and never seen to get the aromatic hops in the primary I want, and result to dry hopping in the secondary in large amounts for aromatic hops.
Yesterday I shifted my hop schedule forward 5 minutes, just to compensate for the extra time the wort is still 'boiling' whilst non-chilled, and try to pack some more flavour and aroma in there. Hope it works!


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## troydo (24/11/08)

there is an interesting article in the BYO from the guys from stone brewing company, they add hops at whirlpool time, however they sit for 90mions at that temperature and they say that add alot of bitterness...


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## Effect (24/11/08)

As soon as I get my arse into gear and get the counterflow chiller going, I am going to do a double batch (or split a smaller batch) and do a side by side test.

*Going to do 'normal' hop additions, i.e. 60 minute boil, 60, 10 and 0 min additions. 

*No chill the first half and then counterflow chill the second. Will ferment with dried yeast in a temp controlled fridge.

*Using the same sized fermenter as well (well, actually the same fermenter) - which means I will be letting the no chill sit for as long as it takes to ferment the first batch.

*Bulk priming up to the same amount of carbonisation (and bottleing in the same sized and type of bottles) - what do you think? PET or Glass (I have an abundance of PET and only about 80 Glass bottles.


That is the way that I want to do it, but the only thing that has got me thinking that it isn't exactly the same is that the chilled wort beer will have about 3-4 weeks more in the bottle than the no-chilled wort. Might have to get some smaller jerry cans and use them to ferment in - that way I can ferment them at the same time. Which means I would only really want to leave the no-chilled wort for about 1 day so that the chilled wort doesn't get infected.

What are your thoughts on this method?

Anyone in adelaide is welcome to taste the beers as well...

Should be doing DrSmurto's Golden Ale for this one as most people have an idea about how it tastes...Will also try and make up a file reporting on the outcome etc (sort of like a year 8 science experiement)


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## buttersd70 (24/11/08)

Sounds good, phillip. As you said, the only real difference will be that one is goint to be in the bottle longer by about 3 weeks....if its aged to the point of 12 and 15 weeks in the bottle respectively, the difference caused by age will minimise to the point of being able to be discarded, I think, but thats quite some time to let it sit for experimental purposes....although, of course, the whole batch doesn't need to be left, just enough samples to conduct the experiment, and the rest can just be drunk as normal.  

Other option is to ferment one in a cube if you have a spare, and do them side by side (assuming your brewing fridge has the capacity).....


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## Effect (24/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Sounds good, phillip. As you said, the only real difference will be that one is goint to be in the bottle longer by about 3 weeks....if its aged to the point of 12 and 15 weeks in the bottle respectively, the difference caused by age will minimise to the point of being able to be discarded, I think, but thats quite some time to let it sit for experimental purposes....although, of course, the whole batch doesn't need to be left, just enough samples to conduct the experiment, and the rest can just be drunk as normal.
> 
> Other option is to ferment one in a cube if you have a spare, and do them side by side (assuming your brewing fridge has the capacity).....



Yeah, the side by side cubes or jerry cans is the way I think I might go. I thought about the 12 week and 15 week bottle conditioned beer would also be another option, but yeah, the 12 weeks I think is a bit too long for the experiement.


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## MattC (19/1/09)

Hope this thread has not been forgotten, quite an interesting read, seems like there are a few differing opinions out there as to the effect of the NC method on bitterness. 

Looking forward to hearing the results from Stuster's and Phillip's experiments!!


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## MattC (19/1/09)

Hope this thread has not been forgotten,


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## MattC (19/1/09)

Hope this thread has not been forgotten, quite an interesting read, seems like there are a few differing opinions out there as to the effect of the NC method on bitterness. 

Looking forward to hearing the results from Stuster's and Phillip's experiments!!


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## MattC (19/1/09)

Hope this thread has not b


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## Bribie G (19/1/09)

hope this thread has n b . ..  

Nope, not forgotten, I just had my first taste of my Burton Ale NC and it had a real late-developing bitter lingering aftertaste, and quite nice, and I was thinking "is that from the cubing or would it taste different if it had been rapidly chilled?" I have actually cut down on the bittering hops, from say 45g fuggles 60mins to 30 and upped the aroma hops as a late addition to the fermenter. Seems to be working.


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## MattC (19/1/09)

MattC said:


> Hope this thread has not b




Dont know how that happened ??????


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## Bribie G (19/1/09)

MattC said:


> Dont know how that happened ??????



I'm on a couple of other forums powered by Invision and it happens now and again when the server is slow. Probably Rudd's censorship Board is probing the site at the moment. h34r:


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## Effect (20/1/09)

well, if I can get some more amarillo then I will do the golden ale again, one no chill and one counter-flow chilled.

Should plan to make this on either 31st of jan or 1st of feb...


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## MattC (23/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> The Aroma addition is not added until 2/3rds of fermentation is complete - The hops are placed in a french press coffee maker, stirred and steeped for about 1min - then its pressed and the hot liquid is poured into the primary - the process is repeated to "sparge" the hops. You could steep for longer if you want, but I am trying to emulate the short contact time and rapid cooling you get from a hopback, so I keep the contact time to less than one minute.
> 
> Thirsty



Thirsty Boy, What temp water do you use in this process?


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## KHB (1/6/09)

Reviving an old thread, but im now using a hopsock and doing 60min 20min and flameout addition in the kettle and will be interested to see if the hopsock cancels out any added bitterness as im yet to try one made this way. Anyone out there do it this way?


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## Stuster (1/6/09)

Well, sorry Matt, I have obviously missed this thread and not given the feedback on my test I promised. In brief, I found that there was a noticeable difference in flavour and aroma between the chilled and no-chilled batches. The chilled batch had a much stronger, brighter aroma/flavour and was definitely a better APA than the no-chilled batch. I didn't notice a significant difference in bitterness, but that might simply be due to the fact that the difference in hop flavour and aroma was so striking that other differences were much less noticeable. I'm still planning on doing this again as there were some stuff ups with the last batch, differences in time in the fermenter being a possible source of difference. And also to check whether I notice any bitterness difference. But I do think now that for the perfect APA, chilling might be the best option. Sad but true. Still, there are other ways round it such as dry hopping, the ultra late hopping notion etc. I'll try to get round to this soon, but there are so many other beers butting there way into my schedule (along with my general slackness) that I make no promises of it being soon. :icon_cheers:


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## clean brewer (1/6/09)

Scotsman06 said:


> Reviving an old thread, but im now using a hopsock and doing 60min 20min and flameout addition in the kettle and will be interested to see if the hopsock cancels out any added bitterness as im yet to try one made this way. Anyone out there do it this way?



Hey Scotsman,
I just got a hopsock aswell and used it on my last brew, ask a similar question in another Topic and the answer was that it will keep alot of the hop material out of the cube but the bittering compounds in the hops will have been released from the hops and still be dissolved into the wort..

Wont really matter on the 60min addition to much but im still sticking to 45min addition(for 60min) and cube hopping for the 20min addition(flavour) and dry hopping(if required for specific brew) after 7-10 days of fermentation for aroma... Getting good results with this method..  

I still think with using the hopsock and by keeping most of the hop material out of the cube, you will decrease some bitterness though from the hops as im sure that all hasnt been released from them...


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## Thirsty Boy (1/6/09)

clean brewer said:


> Hey Scotsman,
> I just got a hopsock aswell and used it on my last brew, ask a similar question in another Topic and the answer was that it will keep alot of the hop material out of the cube but the bittering compounds in the hops will have been released from the hops and still be dissolved into the wort..
> 
> Wont really matter on the 60min addition to much but im still sticking to 45min addition(for 60min) and cube hopping for the 20min addition(flavour) and dry hopping(if required for specific brew) after 7-10 days of fermentation for aroma... Getting good results with this method..
> ...




maybe -- what you say is roughly what I believe, so I'm not arguing with you - but I think that this is all still new enough that we are still discovering how it works and people's individual experiences have yet to firmly distill down to a commonly accepted "this is what happens"

The only area where I don't more or less think your method is solid, is in the dry hopping. Dry hopping adds a distinctly different sort of aroma to late hopping. Nothing wrong with it - but its not the same. That why people are mucking about with the french press stuff - to emulate late hop aroma, not just to get a strong aroma. 

MattC - sorry mate, I missed your question till now. I use nearly boiling water for my Ultra Late hopping - from the kettle to a pre-heated beaker to measure the volume, to the French press.

TB


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## clean brewer (1/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> maybe -- what you say is roughly what I believe, so I'm not arguing with you - but I think that this is all still new enough that we are still discovering how it works and people's individual experiences have yet to firmly distill down to a commonly accepted "this is what happens"
> 
> The only area where I don't more or less think your method is solid, is in the dry hopping. Dry hopping adds a distinctly different sort of aroma to late hopping. Nothing wrong with it - but its not the same. That why people are mucking about with the french press stuff - to emulate late hop aroma, not just to get a strong aroma.
> 
> ...



I agree TB, as I sent in a PM to Scotsman, I am still tweaking/experimenting with a few different things, unfortunately it takes a while to learn as Im only learning on each brew and each brew takes a little bit to drink... Im going to be trying the "French Press" idea next and see what the results are from that..  

Im sure one day someone will be able to do some serious scientifics on "No-chilling" and give us a conclusive answer to everything with it to bring it in-line with chilling straight up after doing a brew and normal additions...

But for now, its just brew by brew and learning along the way.... so many factors to take into account other than addition times etc

:icon_cheers: CB


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## hazard (30/6/09)

I found this on the homebrewtalk forum
View attachment No_Chill_Hop_Adjust.bmp


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## buttersd70 (30/6/09)

hazard said:


> I found this on the homebrewtalk forum
> View attachment 28459



mmm. I disagree. as I said a few pages back, I don't think theres _that _much difference. Particularly when you look at the discrepency between hop utilisation, cross-platform.


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## clean brewer (30/6/09)

+1 for Butters in a way for me....  

I have been working on:

-Bittering(60 MIN) as FWH
-20 Minute addtion into the Cube
and Aroma as a dry Hop into Fermenter after 7-9 days, but still playing with that aswell but have been getting some good results IMO.

Hopping also is dependant on Style aswell............... :icon_cheers: 

:icon_chickcheers: CB


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## Beer&Kebab (9/9/09)

I have been getting into AG for about a year now. Most brews have been cubed, though some have been BIAB half batches chilled in a 20 litre stock pot in the sink. These have all had "normal" hop additions. With the full size no-chilled batches I have been adding 60 min bittering additions + cube hopping + dry hopping and I have to say that the flavour and aroma aren't as good as my chilled attempts. I haven't done side by side tests but it seems to me with no chilling that the bitterness isn't really the issue but the lovely subtlness that comes from the late additions that are then chilled are lost. Another AHBer (maybe in this thread - I have read so many) said that chilling is like a mash-out, it preserves the hop profile. I think that is absolutley spot on. I find these days if I make a kit beer and boil a little malt and add the some 10-5-0 hop additions I get all the hop flavours and aromas just how I like coz I can chill the pot nice and quick and "lock-in" that profile. So for my next AG batch I am going to add the normal 60 min addition, no-chill that with no other hop additions. Then when it is chilled (IE the next day) I will run off a litre or so into a saucepan bring it to the boil and do the 10-5-0 hop additions (just like I do with a kit beer) and give it a quick chill in the sink and then mix it with the rest of the cubes contents into the fermenter. This is the only way I can think of getting around the issue. I can't see there being an issue with a small size boil adding the flavour and aroma like there would be adding bittering. Sorry for war and peace


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## crundle (10/9/09)

For mid to low AA hops I have been keeping my hop additions the same as most recipes call for, but with high AA hops I tend to reduce the boil additions by about 1/5th or so. For flameout hops, or those 5 minutes or less before flameout, I have taken to going for the French Press method, but I leave the hops in the plunger for 5 minutes, and have noticed a slightly more lingering aroma in my kegged beers.

This hasn't been the result of a controlled experiment, just my observations over about the last 5 brews that used a fair amount of aroma addtions. I add the hot hop soup to my chilled keg filled with beer, then gas/purge and gas up over about 10 days. I get a nice strong aroma that lasts for ages, but have not noticed anything untoward, such as vegetal flavours from doing so.

Crundle


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## Elbow (11/8/10)

There's a recipe in the DB for a 10 minute IPA which I'm keen on having a crack at:


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...amp;recipe=1192

I was going to Pride of Ringwood for this (8.9%). How would this translate to NC given that the recipe calls for one mega addition of hops at 10 minutes to achieve 60 IBU'S? Would it all be french pressed, cube hopped or added at whirl-pool?


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## Phoney (11/8/10)

Elbow said:


> There's a recipe in the DB for a 10 minute IPA which I'm keen on having a crack at:
> 
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...amp;recipe=1192
> ...



If you read the first couple of pages of the accompanying thread (below), NC info is all there.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=46298


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## Elbow (11/8/10)

I don't have any brewing software at the moment so I'm a bit stuck!


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## Hatchy (12/8/10)

I think he's suggesting that you don't need software, there's a conversation about NC for that recipe in the discussion thread about that recipe.

Does anyone know what temp the wort needs to be to stop hop utilisation? Does anyone do a half arsed chill to stop hop utilisation but not to get to pitching temperature?


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## Effect (12/8/10)

I know some qlders that will chill to about 70-75 degrees to stop the hop utilization and still be hot enough for no chill.


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## argon (12/8/10)

Phillip said:


> I know some qlders that will chill to about 70-75 degrees to stop the hop utilization and still be hot enough for no chill.


+1 i'm pretty sure I've heard Ross mention that he does this with any cubes beers. Seems like a decent compromise.


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