# Safety



## ballantynedewolf (5/12/17)

Caught up with an old brewing friend who lives in Darwin. He told me of a BIABer up there who spilled the whole boiling kettle on himself, spending 3 weeks in hospital with 3rd degree burns. An injury like that will lead to a lifetime of disability.
This has given me a hell of a pause for thought.
I'd be interested what measures members of this forum have implemented to prevent this kind of catastrophic spill.


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## BrockHops (5/12/17)

I had the same thoughts, now, I did just knock this frame up quickly on brew day, the plan is to build a good 3v system.
So, yes I know the build is a bit rough, but the idea was to have a frame with a removable bar at the front so I didn't have to lift the kettle up too high.
I certainly don't want to wear 40 odd litres of boiling sugary water on my legs.
Brock.


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## Coalminer (5/12/17)

I fail to see the need to have to lift/carry a large amount of boiling liquid


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## BrockHops (5/12/17)

Coalminer said:


> I fail to see the need to have to lift/carry a large amount of boiling liquid


Agreed.
To be clear I'm lifting an empty vessel.
Let the magic of gravity and pumps do their thing!


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## FarsideOfCrazy (5/12/17)

2 months ago I smashed the end of my second toe to the size of a 20c piece. 

I was lifting a 60l plastic fermenter in the fridge, foolishly by the black handles, as I nearly had it in I was thinking 'these handles might break with 40 litres of wort' crack, crack fermenter hits my toe.

Looking down there's my toe all smashed, blood pissing out everywhere, the lid popped off so wort has gone everywhere.

So next day trip to Dr he says go to hospital, spent the day in there, xrays, iv antibiotics and about 25 stitches.

Definitely not on my list of things to do again. 

Never lift one of those fermenter by the black handles always use the molded ones in the side walls.


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## ballantynedewolf (5/12/17)

So, not lifting or miving full vessels is an obvious first step. But what about one that topples off the stand for some reason?
I have set up under a verandah so I can pull the bag with a block and tackle, so I'm wondering about adding a chain up to an anchor from each handle?


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## ballantynedewolf (5/12/17)

BrockHops said:


> View attachment 110218
> 
> 
> I had the same thoughts, now, I did just knock this frame up quickly on
> ...


I like the shopping trolley shape - you could run a member up from bottom rear via the other diagonal to fix the top of the keg. Your base is very narrow tho, even 25% larger footprint would massively increase your tipping angle.


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## ballantynedewolf (5/12/17)

Also, how effective/wearable are rubberised aprons?


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## wereprawn (5/12/17)




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## ballantynedewolf (5/12/17)

wereprawn said:


>


Your bum looks big in that


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## BrockHops (5/12/17)

ballantynedewolf said:


> I like the shopping trolley shape - you could run a member up from bottom rear via the other diagonal to fix the top of the keg. Your base is very narrow tho, even 25% larger footprint would massively increase your tipping angle.


Haha, there's actually a step ladder behind that, not really a shopping trolley shape.
[emoji23]


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## Black Devil Dog (5/12/17)

Handling near boiling liquid is potentially very dangerous.

I tend not to drink until I've finished transferring my hot wort into cubes and if I do drink during my brew session, I limit it to 1 or 2.
My transfer hose gets clamped onto the ball valve outlet when transferring, because that would be the most likely point where there could be a failure.
Use silicone mits when handling hot cubes etc. I put my boots on during wort transfer usually too.
Keep my dogs away from hot liquid. 
There are also lifting issues to keep in mind. I use a tripod and pulley system to lift my malt pipe out of my 50 litre Braumeister.
Lifting fermenters into or out of fridges can be awkward, mine are only 26 litres and my fermenting fridges are quite narrow, so it can be a bit tricky. I imagine that 50 - 60 litre fermenters would be much more difficult.

As with everything in life, a little common sense will go a long way.


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## mondestrunken (5/12/17)

No. one rule is no drinking while brewing. I had a couple of near misses when I used to do half boils outside, and ever since I started full boils don't drink at all while brewing (hot side stuff at least...) It helps that my normal brew day start is around 5am on Sundays.


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## manticle (5/12/17)

I'm very safe at work and try and encourage that culture (without requiring ladder licences or biro rail guides - let's not get silly).

However, at home I do a lot of potentially dumb stuff. Not drinking while brewing offends the beer gods and means the beer tastes like wee. I lift my final volume (steaming hot keggle full of wort) onto a plastic trestle, leaning on an angle before whirlpooling and leaving for 20 mins.

I have no kids to knock it and my partner is almost always working when I brew so I don't have those considerations to worry about.

Only safety tip from me that I actually follow is wearing sturdy shoes (in my case steel caps). I may get burnt but my toes should survive intact.


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## droid (5/12/17)

pumps and silicone hose are a good investment, don't carry hot liquid or move it about in a bulk manner if poss

water, electricity and gas are other things to look at, danger is everywhere!!! sensible is good advice to me and the other message coming through seems to be to hold off on the frosty libations

and brewing with other peeps on other systems


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## mondestrunken (5/12/17)

I'm no killjoy and obviously everyone on this forum by definition enjoys a coolin'.
But seriously, at a certain scale, drinking too much while brewing is just stupid.

Having said that, work would never let me do half the shit I do at home on the weekend, but then again they're not liable here so why would they care?


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## Black Devil Dog (5/12/17)

Many weekend warriors end up in emergency because they choose to ignore safety when doing stuff around the home. 
Safety doesn't take the weekend off.


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## bradsbrew (5/12/17)

mondestrunken said:


> But seriously, at a certain scale, drinking too much while brewing is just stupid.


I prefer Captain Risky. Alot of the times i am half pissed before i start. One time i started brewing when i was pissed. Woke up at 2am with music playing and the brew cubed. I remember sparging.
Another time, had a stand go from under my 170L kettle and drop 150L of boiling wort, made a mess.


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## spog (5/12/17)

manticle said:


> I'm very safe at work and try and encourage that culture (without requiring ladder licences or biro rail guides - let's not get silly).
> 
> However, at home I do a lot of potentially dumb stuff. Not drinking while brewing offends the beer gods and means the beer tastes like wee. I lift my final volume (steaming hot keggle full of wort) onto a plastic trestle, leaning on an angle before whirlpooling and leaving for 20 mins.
> 
> ...



+1 , not drinking while brewing? 
Pigs arse it’s half the fun.


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## Stouter (5/12/17)

Potential splashing is what worries me, like if the BIAB bag I have strung up draining over the urn gave way and fell back in...
I should start putting a hose clamp on my urn to cube transfer hose again too, last few brews I've just pushed it on, she'll be right.
Other than that, I'm not carrying around any hot stuff or dealing with pumps etc. It's usually a sticky thongs, no shirt, and a beer on the go sort of scenario.


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## Benn (5/12/17)

Things got more safe when I stopped using the spiral burner indoors and cleaned up the garage. Other than that, shits pretty dodgy round my neck o the woods. I'm slowly moving towards a dedicated brew area which will be better than the nail in the rafter and string tied around the door knob wot hangs the BIAB Bag over the Urn n that.


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## peteru (6/12/17)

Probably the most dangerous piece of advice I have seen going around the traps is actually from Grainfather. They suggest (actually they even programmed the app to do it) ramping up the heater to bring the wort to boil while you are sparging with the malt pipe balanced on top of the kettle on nothing more than four tiny legs on a bit of springy steel rod resting in a groove of the vessel. Besides the potential failure modes of the equipment (the spring loaded steel rod has been known to give way), there's plenty of scope for the operator to drop the malt pipe back in the kettle and have near boiling wort shoot back in their face. It would be bad enough at 75C, but at 90+C? Lifting 8 or 9kg of water soaked grain up to eye level is not a trivial amount of effort.

I'm quite happy to sparge first, then add first wort hops and turn the heat on after the malt pipe is off the kettle. That extra 15-20 minutes is not worth the risk.


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## shacked (6/12/17)

I use silicon gloves, wear boots and also have a fire extinguisher handy. I brew on a 100L system. Electric HLT and gas BK. 

Plastic pails from bunnings could be your friend if you single vessel brew and don’t want to hoist the bag out. You could run off into a series of buckets, remove the bag, then tip wort back in (gloves of course). You’ll lose a little temp but I always found lifting the bag a bit of a nightmare. 

5 hours is a long time to not have a beer but I guess balance is the key here. This all went out the window when Paulyman and I did an 8 hour turbid mash brew day. Waaaay to many sours.


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## ballantynedewolf (6/12/17)

Where do you get these silicon gloves?


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## Dan_kville (6/12/17)

peteru said:


> Lifting 8 or 9kg of water soaked grain up to eye level is not a trivial amount of effort.
> 
> I'm quite happy to sparge first, then add first wort hops and turn the heat on after the malt pipe is off the kettle. That extra 15-20 minutes is not worth the risk.



Why are you lifting it to eye level? Are you very short? Mine is lucky to be just over my waist and I am not very tall


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## EalingDrop (6/12/17)

A timely post. The BM, GF and Robobrew (BIAB in general), all face a precarious trinity of Height, Weight and Heat. 
Danger exists when introducing new equipment, not just the inconvenience of a longer brew day.

Last weekend I had to lift the Braumeister with over 30 litres of wort up onto 3 milk crates to gravity feed into the conical (as they all tend to be taller of course).
Safety can be met by using a transfer pump, or utilising built in pump of the Braumeister.


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## earle (6/12/17)

Where I currently brew (Crown urn biab) has enough height to have the urn on a bench, solid timber above to hoist bag using pulley and no issue with getting fermenter under urn's tap.

I've recently set up a new brewing dedicated area but it doesn't have the same height. Seriously considering building a scissor lift type table. The movement would be driven by threaded rod which would be powered by my Ozito spade handled drill. Would get another use other than milling.

Might even be able to "underlet" at mash in by raising the urn up to the already suspended grain bag. Figure I can brew at whatever height, and lower the table to drain the bag. Raise it once more when it's time to transfer to the fermenter.

This is a couple of examples I found for inspiration. Thinking I might add an upright in each corner for added safety and also would then provide something to suspend the grain bag from.

http://www.jax-design.net/2017/06/how-to-make-scissor-lift-table-lift.html


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## shacked (6/12/17)

ballantynedewolf said:


> Where do you get these silicon gloves?



Bunnings aka “Church” (as I am there every Sunday).


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## bradsbrew (6/12/17)

EalingDrop said:


> A timely post. The BM, GF and Robobrew (BIAB in general), all face a precarious trinity of Height, Weight and Heat.
> Danger exists when introducing new equipment, not just the inconvenience of a longer brew day.
> 
> Last weekend I had to lift the Braumeister with over 30 litres of wort up onto 3 milk crates to gravity feed into the conical (as they all tend to be taller of course).
> ...


Good kaixen pump can be had for $70 tops. Once your back is fucked, it's fucked.
Or tap to tap transfer, lift half the weight?


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## mtb (6/12/17)

I bought an electric winch for hoisting my malt pipe. Was $80 and saves my back as well as removing any reliance on a pulley system. Built a quick mounting frame using Bunnings Stack-It shelving for a further $60 which is rated to huge weights that I'll never even get close to exceeding.

https://www.mydeal.com.au/125-250kg...cXlYhruR54vytkCUhLtNwqJgOacWJ0xxoCNIEQAvD_BwE


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## malt junkie (6/12/17)

mtb said:


> I bought an electric winch for hoisting my malt pipe. Was $80 and saves my back as well as removing any reliance on a pulley system. Built a quick mounting frame using Bunnings Stack-It shelving for a further $60 which is rated to huge weights that I'll never even get close to exceeding.
> 
> https://www.mydeal.com.au/125-250kg...cXlYhruR54vytkCUhLtNwqJgOacWJ0xxoCNIEQAvD_BwE


first thing I built into my 1v


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## Stouter (6/12/17)

Probably to my detriment, but I'm more concerned with the long term old age safety issues rather than the immediate. I want to be brewing into older age.
I like these 1v hoist and height adjustable platform ideas.


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## peteru (6/12/17)

Dan_kville said:


> Why are you lifting it to eye level? Are you very short? Mine is lucky to be just over my waist and I am not very tall



Grainfather is 100cm tall. It sits on a 15-20cm tall platform. The malt pipe extends another 60+cm above that, plus you need a bit of clearance to get it off. In the end you are looking at holding the malt pipe handle at around 160-180cm above ground. Certainly closer to eye level than waist level.


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## bradsbrew (6/12/17)

peteru said:


> Grainfather is 100cm tall. It sits on a 15-20cm tall platform. The malt pipe extends another 60+cm above that, plus you need a bit of clearance to get it off. In the end you are looking at holding the malt pipe handle at around 160-180cm above ground. Certainly closer to eye level than waist level.


Why not just have it on the ground?

Also GF is only 580mm high and pipe is only 440mm.


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## Dan_kville (6/12/17)

bradsbrew said:


> Why not just have it on the ground?


Yeah I do this. Assumed everyone does. Obviously I assumed wrong lol


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## peteru (6/12/17)

Dan_kville said:


> Yeah I do this. Assumed everyone does. Obviously I assumed wrong lol



The floor is not level in the area where I brew. The platform allows me to keep the GF level.

I got the 100cm height off the Grainfather product specification page, but now that I double checked, that figure is actually for the storage bag, not the unit itself.

It's probably more accurate to say that I need to lift the malt pipe handle to chest level rather than eye level. Either way, it's an awkward lift and if the malt pipe does drop back down into the kettle, you are going to get wort splashing right back into your face.


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## EalingDrop (6/12/17)

bradsbrew said:


> Good kaixen pump can be had for $70 tops. Once your back is fucked, it's fucked.
> Or tap to tap transfer, lift half the weight?


$70 for a pump and bit of time to sanitise to protect the back is worth it. As said about the back, once stuffed it doesn't really go away. Too easy to take things for granted until it's too late.


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## spog (6/12/17)

EalingDrop said:


> A timely post. The BM, GF and Robobrew (BIAB in general), all face a precarious trinity of Height, Weight and Heat.
> Danger exists when introducing new equipment, not just the inconvenience of a longer brew day.
> 
> Last weekend I had to lift the Braumeister with over 30 litres of wort up onto 3 milk crates to gravity feed into the conical (as they all tend to be taller of course).
> ...



Milk crates!
Asking for trouble, big trouble.
Just sayin.


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## EalingDrop (6/12/17)

spog said:


> Milk crates!
> Asking for trouble, big trouble.
> Just sayin.


Extra precaution was taken that brew day with extra time set aside as well as brewing in the evening to minimise traffic.

Yes, it is asking for trouble and it was a reminder to be mindful of introducing new gear equipment which isn't always as planned. By posting here, hopefully someone with a similar setup would come across this and help them avoid it. It's not a case of what to do, but what NOT to do. Brewing is fun, but sometimes the situation can get desperate especially all that works been put in.

Following this thread, I've also thought about a solution which can help. All part of what makes this forum so valuable, and I'm glad the O.P raised this topic. Goodness how many mistakes I've avoided from reading about others who were prepared to post theirs.


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## karrathabrewer (7/12/17)

Iv got a pump I use with my 1v BIAB set up that I use to recirculate my wort during my mash, helps with keeping the temp stable and with clarity as I'm sure you guys already know but I use the same pump to recirculate ice water through my immersion chill to bring the temp down fast and to bring it to pitching temp as the water out ground here in karratha West Aus is as warm as dog piss all year round..... my point is I don't come into contact with any hot wort all my wort is chilled before I go near it and I can't work out why any homebrewer would even attempt to move 20 liters of near boiling wort it's madness guys cool it first dump it into your fermenter it's the safest way, the pump costs $70 from keg king!


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## EalingDrop (7/12/17)

Just to reiterate, the wort was cold when it was lifted up for gravity feed. The pump addresses this issue. Personally it means the Lauter Helix will be taking gardening leave.

It would be utterly insane to lift boiling wort up that high, and it makes no sense for anyone (BIAB or not) to do so. The most lifting for a BIAB is post mash, I've not dropped my malt pipe back where 78c wort splashes, but I can see how that could be a concern for some.

The Grainfather allows you to pump into a Fermenter ( as with Robobrew?) and the Braumeister users need a mod to do the same, which I'll have ready for my next batch. 

Many moons ago, before the Grainfather I had built my own system, which utilises the pump in a similar way as you. I like the fact that the pump gets a nice wash while it works on the chilling [emoji3]


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## karrathabrewer (7/12/17)

Ahh ok sorry I didn't read the original post properly! Yes I agree there are major concerns with hot wort and gain bags, I used to lift the bag straight out of my pot and put a strainer underneath with my spare hand and that was pretty dodgey, now I use a rope and pully like most biaber these days


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## ballantynedewolf (29/12/17)

Thanks everyone for your comments on this topic. I've now got a bit of a manual in my head:

No lifts higher than 16kg.
No moving hot vessels
Pull bag w double purchase tackle (already did this and felt much better)

No drinking till fermenter fill on brew day
Kettle as low to the ground as poss
Safety chain on the kettle in case of topple
Wear boots and longs
Get some better gloves
No visitors nor animals in brew area
Wear PPC in immediate safety area around the kettle
No trailing hoses to trip over
Merry Christmas


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## peteru (29/12/17)

Quite comprehensive. Add signage and you are ready for an inspection by the officials.


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## manticle (29/12/17)

Get some high vis in there too.
And some SWMMS template forms.


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## mtb (29/12/17)

Producing ethanol is dangerous in of itself, squeeze oranges instead.


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## Grott (29/12/17)

manticle said:


> Get some high vis in there too.



Nullnvoid even wears his to bed.


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## MartinOC (29/12/17)

Grott said:


> Nullnvoid even wears his to bed.


It's a tough gig being a head-brewer at a Vic case swap. Maybe he just forgot to take it off, or maybe he liked the attention...?

Back to the subject:

1. Use your head, not your back.
2. Plan your brewing gear & brew-day & think about potential areas of up-fuckage/danger before you start (see rule #1).
3. Spend *good* money on anything that will make life easier/safer to brew, not *bad* money on the shiny-blingy stuff that won't make a blind bit of difference to the overall quality. 

Shelling-out a few $'s on pumps/hosing for transfers or planning a hoisting mechanism for your BIAB/Grainfather/Robobrew is a shitload cheaper (& less painful) than spending time in hospital with no income &/or an angry boss/SWMBO.

If you plan correctly, you can still have fun, get the job done in good time & have a few bevvies whilst you do it.


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## timmi9191 (29/12/17)

Solid advice

Can i add. Apply the tradies rule of measure twice cut once. Ie

Before opening or closing valves for transfer double check connections.

This will help prevent boiling wort pouring onto your feet or other uncovered appendages


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## MartinOC (29/12/17)

timmi9191 said:


> Solid advice
> 
> Can i add. Apply the tradies rule of measure twice cut once. Ie
> 
> ...


I deliberately planned my main brew-rig at such a level that when I brew naked, there's no way anything hot can get at my uncovered appendages

Manticle & I have an ongoing bet (a six-pack of Westy 12) that I won't dare brew naked during a Kinglake winter & I fear he may actually get the better of me (for safety reasons of course.....).


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## malt junkie (29/12/17)

Bung back can certainly upset SWMBO especially if it screws with other enjoyable activities, beer helps though.


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## Nullnvoid (29/12/17)

Grott said:


> Nullnvoid even wears his to bed.



The bed is the most dangerous place! I need to be seen


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## MartinOC (29/12/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> The bed is the most dangerous place! I need to be seen


**** ME! Was Cocko ACTUALLY there in person? I thought he only had us under surveillance for this one? 

JEES! Just how safe do you need to brew these days????


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## droid (29/12/17)

I fell asleep for a nano-second whilst leaning on the kettle as it was transferring to FV's - could've made a mess of the trub in the kettle with the sudden jolt back to cogmentus. I was holding a torch to watch the trub cone appear too - dodged a bullet there I reckon foa shoa


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## timmi9191 (29/12/17)

During the planning phase was it considered that said appendages would be at least 500mm internally inverted in a kinglake winter


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## MartinOC (29/12/17)

timmi9191 said:


> During the planning phase was it considered that said appendages would be at least 500mm internally inverted in a kinglake winter


Ah! You flatter me sir!

Anyway, back to safety.....


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## brisie (1/1/18)

I bought 2 of these couple of months ago http://keg-king.com.au/brewery-equi...sure-lpg-burner-with-stand-and-regulator.html
Made my own stands out of 40mm SHS so I cut off the legs. I'm not kidding there is one mig tack on the back of the leg join and two tracks on the front they would be lucky to have had 1/2 mm of penitration and they claim can hold up to 200kG.


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## pacman (1/1/18)

Being an old bugger, I have looked to make things as easy and safe as possible. I BIAB and No Chill with a 40L Crown urn, and transfer into two 10L cubes. Silicon hose transfer, with hose controlled with kitchen tongs, and paper towel to hold hot part of hose. I use three grain bags, 1.5 - 2.0 kg each. My beers finish at 4.5% - 6.5% ABV. Easy Peasy! I wear socks and sneakers, not thongs! WHS will not visit me! Beers are rated "awesome" by family and friends (freeloaders).


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## salty dog (12/2/18)

I am just doing 10L batches, BIAB on the stovetop, so no heavy lifting & I get to brew more often so get to try more things. Works for me.


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## captain crumpet (13/2/18)

I once tried lifting my pot with 50L of wort but leaned back too far and branded the back of my leg on my burner. Don't be stupid like me.


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