# No Rinse Sanitisers



## Yob (31/12/09)

Gday all, Now I dont know about the rest of you but I always worry that I havnt cleaned enough (Perhaps being a newbi adds a little paranoia  ).. I always clean immediatly after use and store in orig. box... but can someone suggest a good no rinse sanitiser??.. its not that I dont have enough gear already or anything stupid like that... I even have a steam jet thingy for doing the threads on the tap, lid and the seal... etc.

Its just that one final step of ensuring a successful brew and eliminating the possibility of onfection I guess..

I got given a beer tree set for chrissie... (cost me $75) with a bottle rinse squirty thing on top for sanitising bottles and it came with some brewcraft sanitiser that suggests a 30ml in 1Lt spraygun type approach.. some of the chemicals there have me a touch concerned.. such as hydrogen peroxide 3% and silver ions?? good lord really? Were all OK with this?

Happy New Year To All

:beer:


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## Gavo (31/12/09)

Two words, "Star San" no rinse and reusable. See above sponsors.

Gavo.


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## Yob (31/12/09)

This brew craft stuff then would need to be rinsed off then??... what with all types of chemicals tec...


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## manticle (31/12/09)

For ages I was using sodium metabisulphite and also used bleach/vinegar a few times. Having recently changed to saniclean (same company and very similar product to starsan) I can recommend either that or star-san. Easy to use, re-usable, no rinse, no taste, quick and economical.


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## Gavo (31/12/09)

I have never used the brewcraft sanitizer so can't advise anything but do what do the instructions say. If it says to rinse then you need to rinse, if it says it is a no rinse then just drain well. The problem with rinsing is that you are introducing non sanitised water unless you have first sanitised the water in some way.

Gavo.


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## Gout (31/12/09)

manticle said:


> For ages I was using sodium metabisulphite and also used bleach/vinegar a few times. Having recently changed to saniclean (same company and very similar product to starsan) I can recommend either that or star-san. Easy to use, re-usable, no rinse, no taste, quick and economical.



+1, i use both of these also and think its so easy to use. A spray bottle with a mix in it, is awesome in the brewery, as its ready to use when you just need to clean something small and can not be arsed making a batch. things like fermenter taps before using and airlocks

it will last you ages 
( i use starsan more than saniclean just because with the foaming it hangs on the parts a bit longer - both however should work)


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## mauriceatron (31/12/09)

I've mostly used Iodophor but I've also used The Country Brewer's Liquid Sanitiser (phosphoric acid) a couple of times. Both are excellent and work well when mixed to the right amounts. I will be switching to Star San though for when my current bottle of Iodophor runs out. No particular reason, "just because I can" I guess. It's got the name, the recognised quality and it's just as cheap as Iodophor.

The only thing in the liquid sanitisers that I think is a bit expensive is Sanitize which I think is a Morgan's product. Compared to anything else commonly used by home brewers, it's quite expensive and the other products do the job just as well.

Anything your local home brew store sells as a no rinse sanitiser will be fine I think - another good reason to go give them a visit. If you don't have a LHBS, Star San or Iodophor form a site sponsor will do you fine. Just remember to take care to mix to the right concentration, don't use a heavy hand when mixing. Using too much of any liquid no rinse product may leave a taste or, iirc, may not even work.


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## Bribie G (31/12/09)

Starsan lasts for ages and ages. Also because it's based on phosphates it is a yeast nutrient. After swishing out my fermenters etc with starsan solution I tip it around the veg garden and the plants go berserk. 

The perfect cleaner is sodium percarbonate (the active ingredient in Napisan). I usually soak stuff in perc first, then rinse twice, then starsan.


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## Gout (31/12/09)

mauriceatron, you raise a good point.

what do starsan users recomend as the dilution rate be?
I use 1.6ml/Lt ( no idea why because i think i converted the imperial to metric) in a spray bottle

Slightly less when i pump it through my herms/mash/boiler before a brew (as i use PBW before hand) and they both get a much longer contact time


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## rclemmett (31/12/09)

I have been using, and can recommend, liquid sanitiser from the Country Brewer. I've been using it for about two years now and have only used about two-thirds of a one litre bottle.

Its based on Phospheric acid... approx 10%... Dilute 10ml to 1 litre


http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/category68_1.htm


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## roverfj1200 (31/12/09)

Funny thing here is I am moving away from using sanitizers to just using hot tap water to rinse and clean....

I will probably cop an infection soon.. but have bottled around 100 this way ( and drank) and all good so far...


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## Gout (31/12/09)

roverfj1200 said:


> Funny thing here is I am moving away from using sanitizers to just using hot tap water to rinse and clean....
> 
> I will probably cop an infection soon.. but have bottled around 100 this way ( and drank) and all good so far...



Whys that mate? i find the no rinse safer(burns), more effective(less contact time) and i would think maybe about the same cost (with a kettle to boil all the time)

however i dont bottle, i keg and normally 50Lt a time so i can swap the starsan from keg to keg and then wash my brewery


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## Yob (31/12/09)

I guess what im trying to do is nail down a proceedure and get things into a better formed,less laborious habbit... The typical newbi strugglel I guess...

From the very helpful posts so far it does indeed that NRS seem to be the way to go... questions however arise..

If this starsan type sanitiser is a re-usable type of thing, should I have maybe a 10Lt Cube to store a pre-mixed quantity with?... or something like this that I can then also re-use in my bottle rinser? 

Do these no rinse sanitisers require a dry time or can I bottle right after sanitising my bottles? 

For example.. My brew is in Fridge out back... Rinse bottles and put on tree inside house.. Move Fermenter to botteling area (Spare room) and proceed to bottle or should there say be a lag time for the no rinse to dry?

Is there considerations of negative taste being added? I would assume not or these things would not be popular! 

Cheers all and thanx for the superb advise. :icon_cheers:


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## Gavo (31/12/09)

I tend to mix 5lt at a time and reuse that as I have a 5lt container to store in can't see a problem with a 10 lt apart from I never use that much at one time. As for draining when bottling or kegging or whatever else, I just sanitise, drain and fill, no waiting time or complaints here.

Gavo.


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## Gout (31/12/09)

iamozziyob said:


> If this starsan type sanitiser is a re-usable type of thing, should I have maybe a 10Lt Cube to store a pre-mixed quantity with?... or something like this that I can then also re-use in my bottle rinser?
> 
> Do these no rinse sanitisers require a dry time or can I bottle right after sanitising my bottles?
> 
> ...



re-use - yes but they go "off" over time and if soiled. I basicly mix a few Lt of it (only 3ml of starsan) and swish in a clean fermenter, let it sit a min do it again a few times and it should be more than enough. I then tip it into my second fermenter and do the same. As they are clean already, the liquid is still basicly good to keep on using on the brew day.

I tip it after brew day ( for the tiny cost its not worth the effort to store i think).

The spray bottle i keep in the fridge and use on brew days, it dont keep it for months as it does go off with normal tap water i think. ( not sure here)

no rinse dry times - I think its best to use the bottles while they are wet ( once they have their 2 min to kill bugs)

taste - there is not ment to be any at the correct mixing rate.


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## Yob (31/12/09)

This might be kind of off topic but Ive only used the "spring water" from coles to brew with as I dont really trust tap water quality with the melbourne storages so low, is there anything wrong with this?

However the cleaning water has always been with tap water naturally...


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## Gout (31/12/09)

I think melbourne water is rather good you will find. I have never used spring water so cant comment. 

you could filter the water - cheaper than buying it. However i think you will be fine with the melb supply(if mains).


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## Rodolphe01 (31/12/09)

I've used the brewcraft stuff, it is a no rinse and it works fine. the hydogen peroxide (H2O2) decomposes to water (H2O) and oxygen gas (O2) so it isn't residual, silver ions are used in loads of things as an antimicrobial agent and i'm pretty sure it is safe to consume in the quantities that would be left after using the sanitiser as per the directions.

Not the greatest referrence, but quick to find, wikipedia says "_Silver ions and silver compounds show a toxic effect on some bacteria, viruses, algae and fungi, typical for heavy metals like lead or mercury, but without the high toxicity to humans that are normally associated with these other metals._"

Edit: I don't use the stuff anymore though, it works out to about 30x more expensive than iodophor which is what I use now.


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## bcp (31/12/09)

This is my research on these two:
Iodophor has been used in the dairy industry for 60-70 years. It only requires 12.5 parts/million to be effective (ie, 1 in 80,000, which is like one person in the mcg). More than that will start to leave residue (which would kill a few yeast cells), but the residue wouldn't be harmful unless you used massive over-concentration. It only requires 2 minutes of wet time to be effective, which may include the time it's drying. It doesn't matter if they're still wet. This level of concentration of iodine is completely harmless, and cannot be tasted. 

Starsan was developed to sanitise milk trucks. It only requires 30 seconds to be effective as a sanitiser. It says 2 minutes on the label because the EPA test is always for 2 minutes. Once the pH changes above 3.5, it is no longer dangerous (or effective), and in fact becomes bacterial food. All the ingredients for starsan are used in foods. For instance, the main ingredient - phosphoric acid - is in soft drinks like coke.

Rinsing of either of these products may undo your sanitisation - unless your water is sterilised. Using higher concentrations than recommended doesn't increase their effectiveness.

Open to correction.


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## manticle (31/12/09)

Gout said:


> re-use - yes but they go "off" over time and if soiled. I basicly mix a few Lt of it (only 3ml of starsan) and swish in a clean fermenter, let it sit a min do it again a few times and it should be more than enough. I then tip it into my second fermenter and do the same. As they are clean already, the liquid is still basicly good to keep on using on the brew day.
> 
> I tip it after brew day ( for the tiny cost its not worth the effort to store i think).
> 
> ...




I do a similar thing. Clean with woolworths oxygen bleach (36% sodium percarbonate, biodegradeable, cheap and unscented) and hot water.

Rinse well - all the rinse water goes on the herb/vege/hop garden

I use 1 mL per litre water of saniclean which I syringe into the fermenter (usually 5 litres water). Give it a good shake so everything inside is completely coated (new tap, o-ring, any transfer hoses, airlock etc). This is then transferred into any other fermenter or container. If it's not used again within a day or so it goes on the aforementioned garden. The instructions suggest 3 minutes contact time so after about 5 minutes I'm usually good to go although the whole thing might be left for half an hour or so.

Definitely no perceptible taste in either bottles or hydrometer samples.

Any process you work out should just become standard and as mentioned above - don't be tempted to alter the suggested concentration of the sanitiser.

This sanitiser is also far more cost effective than the sodium met I was using (yes I'm a convert) although I will occasionally does everything with sodium met, rinse and then go again with saniclean just to keep the bugs from getting complacent.


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## Yob (31/12/09)

I guess setteling on a product really i sth efirst step in this, and indeed I have a few choices now, thanx all. :icon_cheers:


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## Gout (31/12/09)

watch out with sod.met - i will not breath right for hours after it - infact i hate the stuff. I have never had problems breathing and was doing a heap of sport, but a snif of that wet or dust i was in trouble


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## harry72 (31/12/09)

I have recently started using Starsan to replace the brewcraft one, mainly as i figured it would save me money, however i find that it foams up a lot and i have to rinse anyway - am i doing something wrong? i am using 1.5ml per litre as suggested. When washing my fermenter i put 3 litres of water in and 4.5ml of starsan and give it a shake and voom, it's foam city in there......any suggestions??

Cheers,
Hazwald


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## Gout (31/12/09)

Hazwald said:


> I have recently started using Starsan to replace the brewcraft one, mainly as i figured it would save me money, however i find that it foams up a lot and i have to rinse anyway - am i doing something wrong? i am using 1.5ml per litre as suggested. When washing my fermenter i put 3 litres of water in and 4.5ml of starsan and give it a shake and voom, it's foam city in there......any suggestions??
> 
> Cheers,
> Hazwald


I let it drain a while, then just fill ontop of the foam. it sits on top and i was told this is infact good. If your really worried saniclean does not foam but is basicly the same result

foam is your friend


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## manticle (31/12/09)

Gout said:


> watch out with sod.met - i will not breath right for hours after it -



Agreed. Personally, I never minded the smell but it is bad for the lungs, particularly athsmatics. I never understood why everybody was so against it (seemed to sanitise fine and is used a lot in winemaking as far as I know) but now that I've switched to an easier, more economical variety, its use is limited in my brewery.

@Hazwald - it's meant to foam. Don't worry about it and don't rinse.


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## bcp (31/12/09)

Gout said:


> I let it drain a while, then just fill ontop of the foam. it sits on top and i was told this is infact good. If your really worried saniclean does not foam but is basicly the same result
> 
> foam is your friend


Yes, the guy who created it says it's quite ok, because once the pH rises, it's no longer harmful.


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## harry72 (31/12/09)

Gout said:


> I let it drain a while, then just fill ontop of the foam. it sits on top and i was told this is infact good. If your really worried saniclean does not foam but is basicly the same result
> 
> foam is your friend



As in just make the new brew with all that foam in there?!?! There seems to be an awful lot in there (also in the bottles too mind you when they've been done as well).


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## Gout (31/12/09)

the foam is pushed out, its dilute and with the volume of beer its really dilute. Also its fine on the yeast ( i hear) so even a bonus.

I would not stress at all (unless you had a Lt of it sitting in the fermenter) - a very easy product to use. I started using it this year and i am not looking back not that i ever had problems with bugs but i feel happy with it




edit never could spell.


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## hefevice (31/12/09)

Hazwald said:


> I have recently started using Starsan to replace the brewcraft one, mainly as i figured it would save me money, however i find that it foams up a lot and i have to rinse anyway - am i doing something wrong? i am using 1.5ml per litre as suggested. When washing my fermenter i put 3 litres of water in and 4.5ml of starsan and give it a shake and voom, it's foam city in there......any suggestions??
> 
> Cheers,
> Hazwald



In the words of Charlie Tally (owner of 5 Star Chemicals and inventer of StarSan) "don't fear the foam"!

Foam tells you that your surfaces are coated and that the product is effective (in fact it is nothing but Phoshoric Acid and a surfactant). Just rack onto the foam, it will be fine!


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## bradsbrew (31/12/09)

I use Sodium Percarbonate to clean, then cold water to rinse and boiling water to finish before filling my fermenters and kegs.
I use Phosphoric Acid as a rust inhibitor not a sanitiser.

Brad


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## Gavo (31/12/09)

hefevice said:


> In the words of Charlie Tally (owner of 5 Star Chemicals and inventer of StarSan) "don't fear the foam"!



Got it in one there, Infact I tend to shake it in whatever I am sanitizing in order to make it foam.

Gavo.


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## harry72 (31/12/09)

Gavo said:


> Got it in one there, Infact I tend to shake it in whatever I am sanitizing in order to make it foam.
> 
> Gavo.



Well i may have to give it a go, although every time i see the foam i can't help but think it needs to go.....it looks like soap!!!!


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## Yob (1/1/10)

happy diluting/sterilising ne w year to all.. Weeeeeee


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## Thirsty Boy (1/1/10)

The foam in fact sanitises just as affectively as the liquid and the solution is meant to foam, this helps its stick to the vertical surfaces and under the topof horizontal surfaces. Increasing contact time and helping to ensure good sanitation.

Drain well, whatever foam does not drain out - ignore.

If the foam freaks you out - use Saniclean. Essentially the same product but a low foaming formulation.

I alternate between starsan and iodophor - usually 5 or 6 brews on Starsan and then one on Iodophor. Keeps the bugs on their toes I reckon. Anything that decides its getting used to the one sanitiser and decides not to die.. gets blindsided in a few brews time before it can turn into a residual infection. Maybe once or twice a year I use an acidified bleach solution as an extra change-up.

I work too hard on my beer to lose one to infection - I'm very careful with sanitation.

TB


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## altstart (1/1/10)

The foam from Starsan is no problem. When I keg a beer I use a Peristaltic pump with 5 litres of starsan in the keg and I draw it up the out tube and pump it back in the gas in disconnect. I pump the solution from one keg to another and when the first keg is empty I turn it upside down to drain the foam. When all 4 kegs have been sanitised I fill the first keg and push out the foam with the beer and then fill the rest of the kegs. I have not had a problem with infection and would be very upset to lose a beer through infection at this stage of the beer making procedure.
Cheers Altstart


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## manticle (6/1/10)

manticle said:


> I use 1 mL per litre water of saniclean which I syringe into the fermenter (usually 5 litres water).



This needs correction.

30 mL to 4 litres water (big difference) is the calculation I have come up with. No wonder I have two brews that currently taste like arse.


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## nathanR (6/1/10)

isnt it 30ml to 5 gal of water ?

Directions: A dilution of 1 ounce to 5 gallons of water, STAR SAN will provide 300 ppm of dodecylbenzenesulfonic
acid. After 1 to 2 minutes contact time, drain sanitizing solution equipment thoroughly. Do not rinse. If using Star
San in CIP, proper water balance must be maintained or your pump may cavitate. If used at a rate of more than
300 ppm, a potable rinse is required.


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## manticle (6/1/10)

I'm talking saniclean. Simialar product, different dilution rates.

Ok I'm going to go through it again in case I've got it tits up (which I think I have).

Label says 1 oz (which I assume is fluid ounce) to 3 gallons (which I assume are US gallons)

1 fl ounce US = 29.5 mL

3 US liquid gallons = 11.35 litres

So 30 mL to 10/11 litres or 15 mL to 5 /5.5 litres.

Nobody in the world uses imperial measurements anymore. Frustration city. If anyone can see an error in this set of calculations please help.


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## nathanR (6/1/10)

why dont they say a shot glass in a bucket of water 

that would be easier


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## under (7/1/10)

Starsan 1.5ml per Litre


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## sicdog1 (7/1/10)

i was always told to use miltons for bottles and fermenters seems to work really well any thoughts?


sd


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## Yob (7/1/10)

is Miltons a re-usable type as mentioned earlier in the post? Where do you source this from and what sort of cost?

Cheers


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## sicdog1 (7/1/10)

soak for minimum 15 min ( then can use botlles straight away ) to 24 hours and renew , its prety cheap mixes well 50ml per 4litres $8 litre bottle bigw baby section ithink, no rinsing required i tend to wash my bottles straight after drinking then soak and store havent had a issue when bottling next brew


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## harry72 (8/1/10)

well i did another brew on the weekend and it was still foam city in there - just couldn't bring myself to put a new one in on all that foam.....still don't know why as i know it's not soap - had to rinse it out a bit first!!!! Maybe next time.................


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