# Hop Thief 5 - James Squire



## linny (3/2/14)

Just wondering if i could get a bit of talk about this years hop theif 5 , i was about to put down a beez neez but family dragged me out to lunch where i had a beer..... Long storey short. I loved it, a bit heavy for me but i'd like to have a crack at it, but theres not much info on it.... 

This was on James Squires site

VARIETAL

Craft beer

STYLE

American pale ale

SIZE

Tap only

ALCOHOL BY VOLUME

5.0%



close 

the colour is close to a red with a tall head, and i would have a guess with the IBU being around 35 , and i found a review that said : 

_"Hop Thief 5 delivers a distinct, full-bodied hop flavour true to the American Pale Ale-style. The Centennial and Citra hop varieties add robust citrus and stone fruit characters, balanced by a rich malt body"_


My guess centennial would be a bittering and citra being flavour hop ? what would aroma be ?

I'm still new to this but ive been brewing 13L size batches to get skills and techniques up faster


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## Byran (3/2/14)

Havent tried this yet mate but Im guessing you would be right. Although citra is a great bittering hop also with high AA%. You could bitter with something piney then use centennial and citra late .? Do they dry hop it? Citra would be great for that in any case as an aroma. Red colours can be from a touch of roasted malt at the end of the mash to get the colour but not the flavour? What's it taste like malt wise?
Im keen to go find it.........for 1.


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## indica86 (3/2/14)

Centennial and Citra both work very well for aroma and flavour.
I'd go Magnum for bittering and then 10, 5 and dry hop with both of those ^^^ while watching the IBU.


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## linny (3/2/14)

How would you aim for colour with grain, majority pale malt with caramalt and a tiiiiny bit of crystal? if so how much caramalt is too much

I am no good at describing flavors, haven't quite got there yet


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## OneEye (3/2/14)

I work at JS and you're well on the way using a clean buttering hop to about 10IBU make up the final 25-30 with Centennial and Citra late in the kettle, pretty much all at flame out. Whirlpool/Hot stand for 20 odd mins and you're good to go

Also going for a malt bill similar to LIttle Fellas Pale Ale and upping the crystal slightly will have you in the ball park


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## bigmacca (3/2/14)

Just want to say... im a huge fan of this beer!!


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## NewtownClown (4/2/14)

moosebeer said:


> I work at JS and you're well on the way using a clean buttering hop to about 10IBU make up the final 25-30 with Centennial and Citra late in the kettle, pretty much all at flame out. Whirlpool/Hot stand for 20 odd mins and you're good to go
> 
> Also going for a malt bill similar to LIttle Fellas Pale Ale and upping the crystal slightly will have you in the ball park


"...upping the crystal slightly...", do you mean _adding _a_ slight _amount of crystal? For there is no crystal in LFPA (other than cara-pils which would only add more body rather than color or flavour, right?).


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## Hoppers (4/2/14)

I love this beer too, well the entire squire range. Glad to see that only the hops are seasonal now

Would love to make this at home, but im too far off at this stage


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## linny (4/2/14)

NewtownClown said:


> "...upping the crystal slightly...", do you mean _adding _a_ slight _amount of crystal? For there is no crystal in LFPA (other than cara-pils which would only add more body rather than color or flavour, right?).


Dont worry i was picking up what he was putting down ^_^


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## bambi99 (10/4/14)

So has anyone had a go at making this and if so how did it turn out and what was the grain bill and hop additions this beer is awesome


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## davedoran (10/4/14)

Ive done a similar brew using citra and centennial. Used EKG for bittering. Ready to bottle in a couple of days.
Tastes good so far.

71.4% Marris Otter
17.9% Munich
5.4% Carapils
5.4% Wheat.

9.1 IBU @ 45
18 IBU @10
12 IBU @ 5

10g each citra and centennial dry hop 5 days


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## marksy (10/4/14)

Bloody love this beer. It was perfect after a hard days work in 40c + weather. There are a few recipes of the older versions floating around, I remember when looking in to making my own. I just put down pale ale last night using the same hops, in the hope to have something similar.


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## davedoran (10/4/14)

Sorry should also mention the colour of this is a lot paler than Hop Thief ive had on tap in the pub. Recipe works out about 11.3 EBC but happy with the taste.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/4/14)

A touch (like a teaspoon or so) of black or roasted barley gets the colour adjusted quick smart without imparting much extra sweetness and the roastedness is too small to detect.

Just a tip I got from AABC style guidelines.


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## Rod (10/4/14)

dave doran said:


> Ive done a similar brew using citra and centennial. Used EKG for bittering. Ready to bottle in a couple of days.
> Tastes good so far.
> 
> 71.4% Marris Otter
> ...


I make my brews with extract

is it possible to substitute something for the maris otter and munich


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## davedoran (10/4/14)

Found this online. Might be harder to get out here but nothings impossible

Marris Otter Extract

They also have a munich extract but could possibly sub that for an amber extract.


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## Not For Horses (10/4/14)

Would Squire use Maris Otter though? I would've thought being owned by Lion Nathan would mean that you have to use Joe White. Just guessing mind you.


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## davedoran (10/4/14)

Yeah mate, probably right. Just an experiment for me.


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## dicko (10/4/14)

I would just use your base extract and steep some Carared or medium crystal and maybe a tad of roast or chocolate to colur


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## technobabble66 (10/4/14)

Fwiw, I researched HTA extensively about a year ago and came across mention from somewhere in their website that the grains claimed to be used in the first 3 HTAs were all the same: Pale Ale malt, Munich malt & crystal. 
Not sure whether HTA5 would be the same, but I believe HTA4 followed the same grist.


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## technobabble66 (10/4/14)

If you need Munich in extract form, Briess do a Munich Liquid Extract that's quite good - 50:50 Munich & ale malts I believe.


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## Rod (11/4/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Fwiw, I researched HTA extensively about a year ago and came across mention from somewhere in their website that the grains claimed to be used in the first 3 HTAs were all the same: Pale Ale malt, Munich malt & crystal.
> Not sure whether HTA5 would be the same, but I believe HTA4 followed the same grist.


Sorry I am lost with the 3 letter acronyms

what is HTA

HTA5 and HTA4

I assume you are saying the first three ingredients in this brew are the same

so if i use dried malt extract to give the right level of fermentables using brewmate

then add the wheat extract

proceed withe hop additions 

all will be Ok

as the lady once said , please explain


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## NewtownClown (11/4/14)

Going out on a limb here...
Could it mean *H*op *T*hief *A*le? Perhaps the numerical appellation is indicative of the various releases.


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## Rod (11/4/14)

NewtownClown said:


> Going out on a limb here...
> Could it mean *H*op *T*hief *A*le? Perhaps the numerical appellation is indicative of the various releases.


that helps , thanks , DOH 

now to the question 

although I feel I have enough information to make a brew , assuming it as the name suggests is hop driven


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## NewtownClown (11/4/14)

sure, but why aren't you including the wheat extract when you calculate "the right level of fermentables using brewmate" ?

I would probably use a mix of Light and Amber DME and steep a small amount of medium crystal. Bitter with a clean, neutral bittering hop and throw centennial and citra at it late and dry hop


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## OneEye (11/4/14)

Hop Thief 6 being tapped at the Portland Hotel tonight. Simcoe and Columbus


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## Rod (11/4/14)

Rod said:


> Sorry I am lost with the 3 letter acronyms
> 
> what is HTA
> 
> ...



sorry back in all the other stuff i mention the wheat extract


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## NewtownClown (11/4/14)

This


Rod said:


> so if i use dried malt extract to give the right level of fermentables using brewmate
> 
> _*then*_ add the wheat extract


 why are you adding wheat _after_ calculating the fermentables with brewmate. Include it


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## Rod (11/4/14)

NewtownClown said:


> This
> why are you adding wheat _after_ calculating the fermentables with brewmate. Include it


sorry just my bad post

I knew what i meant :wacko:


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## Rod (11/4/14)

moosebeer said:


> I work at JS and you're well on the way using a clean buttering hop to about 10IBU make up the final 25-30 with Centennial and Citra late in the kettle, pretty much all at flame out. Whirlpool/Hot stand for 20 odd mins and you're good to go
> 
> Also going for a malt bill similar to LIttle Fellas Pale Ale and upping the crystal slightly will have you in the ball park





dave doran said:


> Ive done a similar brew using citra and centennial. Used EKG for bittering. Ready to bottle in a couple of days.
> Tastes good so far.
> 
> 71.4% Marris Otter
> ...


I am having some problem working out the hop additions from the above using Brewmate

9.1 IBU at 45 minutes , no problem 20 grams

adding 35 g each of citra and centennial at 5 minutes gives me

a total hops IBU 26.1

should I then add the other 10g each citra and centennial dry hop 5 days ( at racking )

I know I am a pain but with % additions and extract brewing it is a slightly different language


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## davedoran (11/4/14)

I did 50g Centennial at 10 and 50g Citra at 5min.

Dry hop was in the primary after 5 days. Crash for 3 days then bottle up. Dry hop will certainly add flavour and bitterness. The amount of extra bitterness is up for grabs.


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## NewtownClown (11/4/14)

Dry hopping adds flavour and aroma. Certainly does _*not *_add bitterness. Isomerisation of alpha-acids requires temps a lot higher than fermentation temperature


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## Not For Horses (11/4/14)

NewtownClown said:


> Dry hopping adds flavour and aroma. Certainly does _*not *_add bitterness. Isomerisation of alpha-acids requires temps a lot higher than fermentation temperature


Yeah but isomerisation of alpha acid is not the only source of bitterness from hops. Polyphenols (I think from memory) can add bitterness during dry hopping. IBUs no, bitterness yes.
Though not much from 20g.


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## Oakers (11/4/14)

I just had a pint of JS Hop Thief 6 (Simcoe and Columbus) tonight at the Squire's Bounty in Hobart…wow, what a great beer. Really fantastic hop presence and a lovely malt backbone. Definitely giving this a go as my next brew as I just got an order in from Yob that includes Simcoe and Columbus. I had a pint of JS Amber Ale after the HT and it was like drinking dishwater in comparison.


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## NewtownClown (11/4/14)

If you are talking hop polyphenols, isn't that "astringency" as opposed to bitterness - as measured by IBU?


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## Not For Horses (12/4/14)

NewtownClown said:


> If you are talking hop polyphenols, isn't that "astringency" as opposed to bitterness - as measured by IBU?


Well both actually. Certain polyphenols contribute to astringency and others contribute to bitterness.
I'm guessing you know this NC but others reading might not; bitterness is a flavour detected by the tongue whereas astringency is a physical sensation in the mouth but it is most often perceived as bitterness.
There have been a few publications in the JOIB over the years about polyphenols and bitterness that might be worth a read if anyone is interested in searching for them. Google scholar is useful for this.

Sorry for the off topic btw.


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## NewtownClown (12/4/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Well both actually. Certain polyphenols contribute to astringency and others contribute to bitterness.
> I'm guessing you know this NC but others reading might not; bitterness is a flavour detected by the tongue whereas astringency is a physical sensation in the mouth but it is most often perceived as bitterness.
> There have been a few publications in the JOIB over the years about polyphenols and bitterness that might be worth a read if anyone is interested in searching for them. Google scholar is useful for this.
> 
> Sorry for the off topic btw.



To get back on topic, I will stand by my statement regarding the dry hop schedule suggested above will not add IBU (at least perceptively, I concede).

I have read quite a bit about hop polyphenols in regards to astringency for I started to detect it when I began to replace late and whirlpool hops with heavy dry hopping. It wasn't a tannin type astringency. 
Sounds like more reading is called for to discover the relationship between hop polyphenols and bittering. I am already imagining it doesn't add very perceptible levels of IBU or else we would have heard a lot more about it it considering the massive amounts of dry hopping going on in commercial craft breweries.
This is a hobby in which education is never ending...


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## manticle (12/4/14)

It will not add IBU which is specifically a measurement of isomerised alpha acids in solution. However NFH is correct - there are other compounds in hops which contribute bitterness and dry hopping will add some bitterness - just no IBU.


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## DU99 (17/5/14)

Just bought a six pack ..simcoe/columbus Hops


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## davedoran (20/5/14)

DU99 said:


> Just bought a six pack ..simcoe/columbus Hops


What did you think.

Not completely sure but I think I preferred the Centennial / Citra combination.


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## marksy (20/5/14)

My last few brews I've been using cirta and centennial hops. They are a great mix.


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## Three Sheets (24/6/14)

So did you guys have a go at making this HT 5 or 6? I wasn't too fussed on 5. The 6 was nice in stubbies but on tap the 6 is a stand out. I am now hoping to find a clone. I have Simcoe and Columbus in the fridge and plenty of malt extract. 

Cheers

TS


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## DU99 (24/6/14)

i enjoyed the flavour of different hops,not overly bitter.


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## Markbeer (25/6/14)

I cant believe this many people like this beer so much. If he stole the hops he didn't put them in the beer.

To me it tastes like JS are being cheap with hops. Very little at flameout or flavour additions. Instead mostly dry hopped leading to overly herbal and grassy flavours without the smooth late hopped character coming through.

Still i can see that it could get people into trying craft beer as it is both cheap accessible and easy drinking.


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## thisispants (25/6/14)

I had hop theif 5 and absolutely loved it!!


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## Mikedub (8/7/14)

I tried a Hop Thief 6 on the weekend, on the tap was a sign that read ' hopped with Simcoe and Columbus' which was helpful as I would have guessed grass clippings, the underlying astringency also had no problem cutting through its wafer thin malt profile - I'm not a fan


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