# Munich And Chocolate Malt Make?



## acoulson (26/8/09)

I have a bit of an Iron Chef situation here.

I'm running low on ingredients and because I'm in Japan its really difficult to get more quickly so...

What style would suit the following grain that I have available? 

-5 kg Munich malt 

-5 kg Chocolate malt

- 5 kg Crystal malt

- 800g Wheat malt

Also short on hops. 

- Bittering hops and

- NZ Cascade cones

Any bright ideas? I was thinking a Bitter but without pale malt or ale malt????


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## Stubbie (26/8/09)

How about a Munich Dunkel? 100% Munich and a bittering hop addition only.


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## Fatgodzilla (26/8/09)

Munich as base malt, crystal & choc for colour & a bit of depth, you got some simple altbiers. Adjust accordingly and add sugar or rice to make lighter style Australian Old beers. Go heavy on the choc for porters / american dark lager. 

Use the wheat to add body / head (couple hundred grams per brew).


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## buttersd70 (26/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> Any bright ideas? I was thinking a Bitter but without pale malt or ale malt????



Funny that, but I was thinking Bitter with a Munich base, as well. I might be a pom, but I have _no _problem with using german malts in english beers. :lol: 

Best I've ever done was 5% crystal (homemade, from golden promise), basemalt was 1/2 GP and 1/2 Munich...it was meant to be all GP (was going to be a GP/Bramling cross SMASH), but couldn't get enough GP....


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## acoulson (26/8/09)

Excellent suggestions. 



Fatgodzilla said:


> Munich as base malt, crystal & choc for colour & a bit of depth, you got some simple altbiers. Adjust accordingly and add sugar or rice to make lighter style Australian Old beers. Go heavy on the choc for porters / american dark lager.
> 
> Use the wheat to add body / head (couple hundred grams per brew).





Stubbie said:


> How about a Munich Dunkel? 100% Munich and a bittering hop addition only.



One think i didn't mention is that I only have six yeast in my collection and furthermore only two lager yeast- both of which are crap. I would like to try a Munich dunkel though. 
I do have a good top fermenting yeast which would suit an Altbier so maybe that's one way to go.



buttersd70 said:


> Funny that, but I was thinking Bitter with a Munich base, as well. I might be a pom, but I have _no _problem with using german malts in english beers. :lol:
> 
> Best I've ever done was 5% crystal (homemade, from golden promise), basemalt was 1/2 GP and 1/2 Munich...it was meant to be all GP (was going to be a GP/Bramling cross SMASH), but couldn't get enough GP....




I have a tendency to revert to what I know.. (British & Aussie beers) which I think tends to cloud my thinking sometimes but its good to know my initial instincts are not too far off (or at least shared by others).  Home made crystal sounds interesting- how did you go about that?


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## DJR (26/8/09)

A very malty APA - 80% munich, 15% wheat, 5% crystal and then bittering + cascade aroma/flavour hops

Mash dry 65C to balance out the maltiness


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## acoulson (26/8/09)

DJR said:


> A very malty APA - 80% munich, 15% wheat, 5% crystal and then bittering + cascade aroma/flavour hops
> 
> Mash dry 65C to balance out the maltiness



I like this idea too- never tried a APA....also I can use my Cascade hops


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## buttersd70 (26/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> Home made crystal sounds interesting- how did you go about that?



mash whole grains @65C for 2 hours (although, next time I'd extend it slightly, or step mash it), then dry in a slow oven, when dry, ramp the temp up gradually till I got the colour I was after....couldn't tell you the temps, exactly, it was a long process....sober when I started, not so much by the end.  

But the results were good....the actual flavour in the beer was more than I expected from a crush, smell, chew test.


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## acoulson (26/8/09)

buttersd70 said:


> it was a long process....sober when I started, not so much by the end.



Like watching grass dry.. a good hobby for drinking :chug: 


I've never thought about making crystal from kiln dried malt like that but it basically just replicates the traditional method doesn't it..... very good- something I'd like to try one day. You don't have any way to turn crystal back into pale male BTW do you ???? :huh:


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## buttersd70 (27/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> You don't have any way to turn crystal back into pale male BTW do you ???? :huh:



:lol: , no, I don't.

To be honest, it was a real pita to do. The results were excellent, actually better than I'd hoped for, but the effort required is just too much on domestic equipment to be worth it, other than as a bit of fun experimentation.


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## Swinging Beef (27/8/09)

A lovely full bodied munich stout.
Yum!

I brewed a munich beer recently that was meant to be 100% munich and lager yeast, but my starter failed due to old yeast, and I ended up pitching ale yeast in.
It came out awesome.
I now definately consider munich a base malt for many, many applications.


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## jbirbeck (27/8/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> A lovely full bodied munich stout.
> Yum!
> 
> I brewed a munich beer recently that was meant to be 100% munich and lager yeast, but my starter failed due to old yeast, and I ended up pitching ale yeast in.
> ...



Now this is a great idea...I like it. Choc Munich stout. Munich as the base with a good does of choc for colour, and add a smidge of crystal.

OR an American Brown. Again Munich with a healthy dose of Choc, bitter highly with the bittering hops and add a heap of cascade at the end...mmmmm :icon_drool2: 

I think I've decided what I'll make in the next few brews.


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## Swinging Beef (27/8/09)

I find it very difficult to get enthusiastic about anything called a "Brown"
Sounds all waaaay too Blankety Blanks and Lucky Grills to me.


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## acoulson (27/8/09)

There's some great ideas right there- The choc-munich-stout sounds great for Autumn quaffing and with a bit of age would be perfect timing here. 

mmm,- I actually might have to try a FEW of these. I'm going to brew on my day off, Tuesday and have started my propagation of NCYC 363 which comes from a British stout. I love this yeast- its my favourite- so I've limited myself to a top fermenting style.


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## Sammus (27/8/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> I find it very difficult to get enthusiastic about anything called a "Brown"
> Sounds all waaaay too Blankety Blanks and Lucky Grills to me.



just wait till you taste my american brown.. actually you probably won't like it, your missus might tho hahaha


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## Tony (28/8/09)

I have made a couple great stouts and porters with a munich base.

I say robust porter!

munich base
7 or 8% crystal
5 or 6% chocolate

Bitter it with whatever.

in 23 liters: 1.058, 40 IBU, 56 EBC.

chuck the cascade in at the end if you must but would be cause for public execution at my place h34r: 

Thats what i would do!

cheers


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## acoulson (29/8/09)

Well thanks all and I've gone with consensus. - Munich Porter/Stout but I'm going to add just a bit more of a twist and add a little unmalted rye that I have. I don't know why- it just seems to fit IMO <_< also this is going to be a "Clean up brew" to use up my left over grain and extract

How does this look? 

Munich 45 %

Choc Malt 15%

Rye 15%

Crystal 10%

Wheat (mostly malted) 15%

Mash Schedule...

B-glucan rest; 40 degrees - 20 min (for the rye and a little bit of unmalted wheat )

Protein Rest; 48/30 (I'm going to chuck in some leftover Dk malt extract in the kettle so I'm worried about low FAN)

Amylase rest 65/ until conversion

Raise to mash out 78 degrees

Bitter to 40 BU

Chuck in the cascade aroma around 10 min from cast 

Ferment with NCYC 363.

I'm not sure it is going to be dark enough to call it a porter...has anybody tried roasting their own malt?


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## buttersd70 (29/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> I'm not sure it is going to be dark enough to call it a porter...has anybody tried roasting their own malt?



Yup, surely have. Hang about and I'll try to find the linky with the method...

sods law, whilst searching, I found this article on crystal :lol: ....link

hang on...


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## acoulson (29/8/09)

Thanks butters- that's crystal link an interesting read too. Still waiting for the link to the reverse crystal process  

Just looking at Tony's recommendation maybe I'm too heavy on the crystal and choc?


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## Tony (29/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> How does this look?
> 
> Munich 45 %
> 
> ...



I stuck the numbers in Promash and got 101 EBC. Mate thats blacker than than the darkest place you can imagine. You would be lucky to see light if you held it up to the sun.

I would drop the chocolate back to about 10% at the most. If you want it roastier that yes....... roast up some of the chocolate at home. Im sure butters will come through with the instructions.

I recon the rye will be great! and unmalted wheat.......... man its gunna hold a head!

And the cascase....... personally i think roast and citrus dont mix but do it if you must.

If you need to get rid of the cascade there is always the bin.  h34r: 

cheers


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## buttersd70 (29/8/09)

Ah, found (almost) what I'm looking for...I've posted my method before, but can't find it (it's bad when you can't even find your own posts :lol: ), but I've found the article I got the method from anyway
link

I used the slow method, which is at the bottom, to retain diastatic potential...ramped mine up (JW traditional ale) to the 120 mark for about 20/30 mins, this achieved colour similar to munich 2, roughly. Also did a batch where I took it too far, and got amber/brown...stuck out like dogswotsits. Took a while to settle in (cos I didn't realise I'd gone too far, and it was 50% of the grist).

Theres an article here with the hotter for quicker method, but my 2c is that slow and steady wins the race if only going to a light grade which will form a significant portion of the grist. At the bottom of that, it's got suggested times for roasting crystal into darker grades, and it also talks about raw barley.

As for the crystal...only briefly skimmed that article, as I said, I'd accidently found it....method is fairly similar to mine, difference being I didn't do the stewing in the oven, I did it in the mash tun with a very thick mash....I think in hindsight, the oven stew would probably be better.


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## acoulson (29/8/09)

It's really great to bounce ideas off you guys. Once you hear a different perspective its much clearer. 

The Cascade IS really citrusy. Better to leave it out. I dry hopped a wheat with the cascade and split the secondary in two- the other half with coriander and orange. The bloody cascade came out more citrusy than the orange! I've got some fuggle hop oil in the fridge- could pump a bit of that in a few bottles if it really needs it (it's not the same though :unsure: )

I'll trim the choc back to 8-10% I do all my calculations myself but the one thing that is a real guesstimate for me its the colour so I really appreciate you checking that for me Tony :beer: 

Thanks Butters for the roasting post. I think I'll roast up a really small amount just for some astringency and balance. 

All the suggestions are fantastic and actually this the brew I'm most looking forward to doing for a long time


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## acoulson (5/9/09)

Well, I brewed the Choc. Munich porter on Tuesday and all went well. I had a bit of trouble with lautering as I expected but really happy with the colour and OG.


One extra thought though- I had a bottle of Orval a two weeks ago and for sh**s and giggles I cultured up the yeast. I was surprised to find it was brettanomyces (colonies slightly brown, slower to grow on solid media than usual slightly acetic odour and colonies rounded rather than apiculate) so I started a propagation to check out the properties. 

Question #1 Does anyone know what strain of Brett??? that Orval uses? 

Also the stars seem to have aligned and my porter will be ready to go into secondary tomorrow. I was thinking of splitting it into two and throwing my brett prop. into one half.

Question #2 Has anybody used brett. in a porter or stout and what were your results?


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## Steve Lacey (7/9/09)

Where are you in Japan? I may know some people who could help with your future ingredient stocks  ... better PM me.


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## acoulson (9/9/09)

Steve- sent you a PM. Thanks.

I didn't get any advice about the Brett question so I just pitched my prop into 5 L of the green beer. I'll leave it for a few months and see how it goes. 

I've got a big function coming up in a week so I fermented at a higher temp. and bottled straight from a slightly extended primary. FG was 1012 and the flavour on bottling was very complex, estery, slightly toffeeish and very smooth. Didn't get a perceivable rye flavour but didn't really expect to at that grist level.

Colour was dark enough, with a red hue when held up to the light. Can't wait to taste the carbonated version. Thanks all for your input.


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## mje1980 (10/9/09)

buttersd70 said:


> but I have _no _problem with using german malts in english beers. :lol:




I agree 100%. I use caramunich in my bitters. Excellent. I just did a vienna dark ale. Very nice. Dark ale with vienna as the base. Mmmmmmm


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