# S-189 lager yeasts at Ale temps



## Nick JD (18/2/12)

Split topic by moderator. As started on this thread http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry883388

Craftbrewer ferment their lagers at 19C.


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## jbowers (18/2/12)

Really?


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## seemax (18/2/12)

Yeah .... that's why its called S189 .. it's short for Saf @ 18-19C.


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## daemon (18/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Craftbrewer ferment their lagers at 19C.


I believe they use S-189 for the lagers, which at 19c is actually still quite clean. Sure it's not perfect, but for anyone wanting a XXXX / Corona / standard Euro Lager probably won't pick the difference. The megaswill breweries get away with using Lager yeast at similar temps with loads of sugar, iso hops and a week of "Lagering" so I'd still go for Ross's Lagers any day 

I can understand that smaller breweries / brew-4-u type establishments need a single ferment temp as I'm sure it already costs enough to run two cold rooms. Anyone fussy enough to pick the difference would probably do it all themselves at home anyway.

As for the 27c, it sounds like he was meant to say 17c. I've seen a few Brew 4 u / Brew by U type establishments and most use one room at ~18c and then the 2nd @ ~2c to cold condition.


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## Nick JD (22/2/12)

Daemon said:


> I believe they use S-189 for the lagers, which at 19c is actually still quite clean.



I tried it once. "Quite clean" is not the description I'd use.


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## Clutch (22/2/12)

I've done a lager with both the S-189 and S-23, at the same temps.

I'll take the S-23 any day of the week.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (22/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Craftbrewer ferment their lagers at 19C.



and I believe the previous owners of the said brewery used to brew a few points higher........... h34r:


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## Nick JD (22/2/12)

_WALLACE_ said:


> and I believe the previous owners of the said brewery used to brew a few points higher........... h34r:



Mmmmmm, lagers with esters. Stylish! :huh: 

19C with S189 is not a lager. It's a bowl of fruit.


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## Tony (22/2/12)

Oh come on Ross...... where is the advert coment?

 :icon_cheers:


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/2/12)

Tony said:


> Oh come on Ross...... where is the advert coment?
> 
> :icon_cheers:


Infomercial more like it.  Must be busy.
Nev


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## argon (22/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Mmmmmm, lagers with esters. Stylish! :huh:
> 
> 19C with S189 is not a lager. It's a bowl of fruit.


The thing about Craftbrewer and fermenting S189 @ 19C is that 19C is the temp the cold room is set at.... That is measuring the air. The fermenters are kept on a concrete floor and it's almost certain that the fabric of the room would be at least 4 to 5C cooler. So with a bottom fermenting yeast as S189 is the fermentation is probably more like 14C. Which is closer to a more traditional brewing temp. So 19C at Ross' is probably very different to 19C in my fridge.


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

argon said:


> The thing about Craftbrewer and fermenting S189 @ 19C is that 19C is the temp the cold room is set at.... That is measuring the air. The fermenters are kept on a concrete floor and it's almost certain that the fabric of the room would be at least 4 to 5C cooler. So with a bottom fermenting yeast as S189 is the fermentation is probably more like 14C. Which is closer to a more traditional brewing temp. So 19C at Ross' is probably very different to 19C in my fridge.



Heh heh. Rubbish. It'd be like 23C if it's 19C ambient. 

They shouldn't do it but they do. There's knowing where you can break the rules and then there's being restricted by having only one fermentation area for ales and lagers.

Recognising the difference is a customer's perogative when the retailers spout shit to suit their sales. S189 at 19C+ is fruity.

I'm getting a bit tired with the crap that the retailers post on AHB. Two sets of rules: theirs to break, and homebrewers to not.


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## Ross (23/2/12)

Our Boh Pils FWK took out 1st place in the Queensland championships last year brewed at 19c.
S-189 makes great lagers at 19c, we make them virtually every day, & countless customers (many great brewers), have tasted & agree...

But Nick brewed with it once & got a fruit salad, so he must be right....

Nothing more to add B) 

Cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Ross said:


> Our Boh Pils FWK took out 1st place in the Queensland championships last year brewed at 19c.
> S-189 makes great lagers at 19c, we make them virtually every day, & countless customers (many great brewers), have tasted & agree...
> 
> But Nick brewed with it once & got a fruit salad, so he must be right....
> ...



I brew with it all the time. Not at 19C though - it's a ******* lager yeast.

Who else entered? S189 in a Boh Pils at 19C? 

Oh dear. Can I suggest you use a Bohemian Pilsner yeast at a clean temperature? Or would that not work at 19C?!!!

This makes me lose faith in your competitions... 

Which commerical Boh Pils brewers use S189 at 19C?

More honesty would be appreciated, Ross.

Rigged for sure. Was the Boh Pils decocted? I'm starting to think that the competition at these comps is pretty ******* average.

Post the recipe. I'd like to brew it myself at 19C and see if it's a winner...

*Actually - wasn't this the comp you guys carpet bombed? For retail kudos. *

I'm glad you have nothing more to add.


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## argon (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Heh heh. Rubbish. It'd be like 23C if it's 19C ambient.


Actually no, not rubbish... sciencey stuff suggests there is a thing called thermal lag. Objects of greater density will lag behind temperature changes of those of lesser density. Hence the fabric of the enclosure will be cooler than that of it's contents.



Nick JD said:


> I'm starting to think that the competition at these comps is pretty ******* average.



Put one in an you'll find out. Especially so, that i brew rubbish bo pils.




Nick JD said:


> Rigged for sure. Was the Boh Pils decocted?


Not sure what you mean here... but... the 2010 AABC Beer of Show was a Bo Pils from QLD done as an isothermal mash... no decoction


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

argon said:


> Put one in an you'll find out. Especially so, that i brew rubbish bo pils.



I'd like to see the recipe of this Boh Pils with S189 at 19C that won a competition. Ross - post it here so I can brew it. Was it a decoction mash?

Makes me think the competition is pretty ******* average. 

Makes me think that a WY2001 @ 10C triple decoction Wey Boh Pils might be a shoe in. 

Seriously? S189 at 19C?

What about US05 at 29C?


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

argon said:


> Actually no, not rubbish... sciencey stuff suggests there is a thing called thermal lag. Objects of greater density will lag behind temperature changes of those of lesser density. Hence the fabric of the enclosure will be cooler than that of it's contents.



Pfffft. Put a keg in a fridge and it'll be the same temperature as everything in the fridge - fool.

You guys are idiots. Out.


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## matho (23/2/12)

I have been led to believe that yeast produce most of the esters during the growth phase, so if you pitched a large enough yeast count to limit yeast growth then wouldn't the ester production also be reduced.

One of the translations for the word LAGER is storeroom, I do believe that Bacchus Brewing Co. has a cold storeroom at 0 deg c and they do put their lagers in the storeroom for about 10 days, so they have been lagered.

cheers


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## Tony (23/2/12)

I will add that i tried a Schwarzbier made by a HBS owner close to my area last year, and im fairly sure he said he used S-189 at 17 or 19 deg or something like that.
I recal being amazed how clean it was!

I might even give this a go myself....... would certanly save power on 4 week fridge fest brewing at low temps.


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## bum (23/2/12)

matho said:


> One of the translations for the word LAGER is storeroom, I do believe that Bacchus Brewing Co. has a cold storeroom at 0 deg c and they do put their lagers in the storeroom for about 10 days, so they have been lagered.


This is kinda unnecessarily picky. Nick's point is clearly related to lager _yeast_ and not about the semantics of the word.

Having said that, many people are saying the beer in question is good so I have no doubt that it is. It is just that your point is misleading. Of course, Nick is usually deliberately and frequently far more misleading so I don't wish for this to be seen as a defence of him - more an effort to point out to people who may not understand that simply CCing their brews doesn't mean they can always get away with hot ferments with all lager yeasts.


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## Tony (23/2/12)

Sean72 said:


> Would like to add I was only talking about the 'Brew By U', 'Bru 4 U' BOP setups, in no way were my comments directed at Ross and Craftbrewer.



I know...... but i just felt like stirring the bloke 


to add to bums comment.....

Not all yeast work the same....... look at Saison....... 30+ deg and quite clean beer.

Who says a yeast that will work at low lager temps wont ferment clean at low ale temps also ??


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## Lillywhite (23/2/12)

Tony said:


> I know...... but i just felt like stirring the bloke




Just wanted to ensure my next order wasn't spiked


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## bum (23/2/12)

For sure, Tony, but I'm not certain that'd be the message anyone would want new brewers to take away from this thread though. Right?


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## argon (23/2/12)

Tony said:


> Who says a yeast that will work at low lager temps wont ferment clean at low ale temps also ??


That's what I reckon about S189 too. Seems to be a couple of sweet spots. Not sure why, but it does seem the case with the circumstantial evidence I've encountered. 


Whether or not the 27C as mentioned in the OP is a sweet spot is doubtful though.


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## matho (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Mmmmmm, lagers with esters. Stylish! :huh:
> 
> 19C with S189 is not a lager. It's a bowl of fruit.






bum said:


> This is kinda unnecessarily picky. Nick's point is clearly related to lager _yeast_ and not about the semantics of the word.
> 
> Having said that, many people are saying the beer in question is good so I have no doubt that it is. It is just that your point is misleading. Of course, Nick is usually deliberately and frequently far more misleading so I don't wish for this to be seen as a defence of him - more an effort to point out to people who may not understand that simply CCing their brews doesn't mean they can always get away with hot ferments with all lager yeasts.



Bum, not trying to be misleading, maybe facetious, my point was that by limiting the growth of the yeast the esters are reduced and with some cold conditioning you can produce a respectable lager. The second part of the post was in response to nicks post, if you use lager yeast and lager your beers why can't you call it a lager. For the record I have tried S23 at 18deg in a beer with JW pils, 20% sugar and POR to 22 ibu, It produced a beer that tasted very CUBish and when i gave it to a megaswiller they thought it was great, it wasn't a fruit salad but it wasn't super clean either


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## Morebeer4me (23/2/12)

argon said:


> The thing about Craftbrewer and fermenting S189 @ 19C is that 19C is the temp the cold room is set at.... That is measuring the air. The fermenters are kept on a concrete floor and it's almost certain that the fabric of the room would be at least 4 to 5C cooler. So with a bottom fermenting yeast as S189 is the fermentation is probably more like 14C. Which is closer to a more traditional brewing temp. So 19C at Ross' is probably very different to 19C in my fridge.



Hi Argon,
The concrete floor should be a very stable temp, if the cold room was set at 19c, then the concrete would be around the same give or take a half degree. Most commercial cold rooms are fan forced, therefore there should be no temperature differences of any notable amount. I have visited a small number of very small breweries and the fermenters are put on pellets and sometimes stacked with no contact with floor. I would suggest therefore tht the wort temp would be 19 degrees once stable
Cheers Mate
Edit : Typo


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## drew9242 (23/2/12)

argon said:


> Actually no, not rubbish... sciencey stuff suggests there is a thing called thermal lag. Objects of greater density will lag behind temperature changes of those of lesser density. Hence the fabric of the enclosure will be cooler than that of it's contents.



I'm finding it hard to understand this point. I would have thought the thermal lag would work in the opposite way. In Queensland the ambient temp outside would be 30. So all the insulating walls will be trying to stop the heat coming in and would have no coolness stored. If the thermostat works on the ambient air, once it hits 19 it stops. Leaving in my opinion all walls and floors warmer because the air hasn't had time to cool them. Then the heat from outside gets in through the thermal mass and heats up the air and turns it on again. Or the fementing beers heat up the air and it turns on again. Either way i can't seem to work out how the beer would be cooler then ambient air temp.

Not trying to have a go. Just was an interesting point you made and trying to understand it better.

Cheers


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## bum (23/2/12)

matho said:


> not trying to be misleading


Of course. I didn't mean to suggest this was your intention.

Naturally, saying that such beers aren't lagers is not correct but who has the time to go around correcting all of Nick's garbage? Perhaps I'm being unfair but my concern is that there are many members here of late who may read your post to mean that lagering can undo all damage done by inappropriate fermentation temps. Not suggesting that the discussed temps are always inappropriate.


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## Morebeer4me (23/2/12)

Drew9242 said:


> I'm finding it hard to understand this point. I would have thought the thermal lag would work in the opposite way. In Queensland the ambient temp outside would be 30. So all the insulating walls will be trying to stop the heat coming in and would have no coolness stored. If the thermostat works on the ambient air, once it hits 19 it stops. Leaving in my opinion all walls and floors warmer because the air hasn't had time to cool them. Then the heat from outside gets in through the thermal mass and heats up the air and turns it on again. Or the fementing beers heat up the air and it turns on again. Either way i can't seem to work out how the beer would be cooler then ambient air temp.
> 
> Not trying to have a go. Just was an interesting point you made and trying to understand it better.
> 
> Cheers


Drew9242, 
You are correct, also the thermal lag will only occur when the cold room is first turned on, after a week or so the concrete floor will be very stable. Later on because the floor and walls are close to the desired storage temps they I'll actually provide a Thermal buffer of sorts that will help the cold room keep stable temps.


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## stux (23/2/12)

Even if the ambient is 19, the wort will be at 21 during the primary phase

Wyeast do mention that you can ferment lagers hotter if you pitch more, because of the lack of growth derived esters


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

If Ross's FWK Bohemian Pilsner can win a competition using S189 at 19C (ambient ... the actual temp of the fermenter will be a few degrees higher, possibly 23C since 19C ambient produces a rapid fermentation and a fair bit of subsequent exothermic heat) then I'm not sure if this says volumes about Craftbrewer's brewing skills, or something about the quality of the judging at the competition where it won. 

Possibly a bit of both.

Imagine how good it'd be with a Czech yeast at an appropriate lager temperature.


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## pcmfisher (23/2/12)

I have used S23 many times at 18 deg.
Tasted ok to me. Definitely no diacetyl problems.

I think it works out about the same as US05.


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## the_new_darren (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> I brew with it all the time. Not at 19C though - it's a ******* lager yeast.
> 
> Who else entered? S189 in a Boh Pils at 19C?
> 
> ...



*Actually - wasn't this the comp you guys carpet bombed? For retail kudos. *

Others would call it cheating


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## NickB (23/2/12)

To defend Ross somewhat, I believe he did withdraw all entries from that competition. The competition he actually won was NOT the one the two trolls on here are referring to. But I'll let Ross respond in due course.

Cheers


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## Ross (23/2/12)

For those interested.

For German style lagers We use 25gms of S-189 in 55L of wort, fermented for 9 days in an airconditioned cold room set at 19c. The floor is the same temp as the air. The beers are then cold conditioned for 9 days at 1c, but this is primarilly to drop the yeast before filtering. It doesn't IMO have any noticable effect on the "fruitiness", as we taste all the beers when taking final gravities before transferring. 
For aussie style lagers we use 25gms of S-23 exactly as above.

The S-189 gives a good clean result at these temps & is used worldwide commercially (especially in hotter climes), for the very reason that it ferments clean at warmer temps.
The S-23 is a little more estery & gives the beers a more aussie mega brewery type flavour & hence why we use in these brews.

If US-05 gave a better "lager" result at 19c we'd use it - It's half the price of S-189, but it doesn't, so we don't.

The beers we produce are permanently on tap at the brewery for anyone to sample & regularly on tap in bars around Brisbane. We make the beers the best we can with the ingredients & temperature control available to us.

....& as I've always said, my preference would be to ferment at lager temps, but we can't, so 19c it is & the results are quite acceptable.

Cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Ross said:


> ....& as I've always said, my preference would be to ferment at lager temps, but we can't, so 19c it is & the results are quite acceptable.



Good to hear - I didn't think it was best practice. But if it's winning comps then I'd say it's exceptional, not acceptable - especially with such a small pitch.


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## daemon (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Good to hear - I didn't think it was best practice. But if it's winning comps then I'd say it's exceptional, not acceptable - especially with such a small pitch.


So why all the name calling and bitching earlier? You complain about some of the posts on AHB yet contribute to the problem.... seems rather ironic to me.

I'd suggest putting your money where your mouth is and make a trip to Ross's shop to taste the beers. Give us some feedback then please, we'd all appreciate it.


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## mckenry (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Good to hear - I didn't think it was best practice. But if it's winning comps then I'd say it's exceptional, not acceptable - especially with such a small pitch.






Daemon said:


> So why all the name calling and bitching earlier? You complain about some of the posts on AHB yet contribute to the problem.... seems rather ironic to me.
> 
> I'd suggest putting your money where your mouth is and make a trip to Ross's shop to taste the beers. Give us some feedback then please, we'd all appreciate it.



I think its a sarcastic backhanded compliment Daemon. Nick JD is saying Ross' beers are not brewed with best practice, underpitched and exceptional - as in rare / being an exception / not usual, rather than outstandingly good.

I could be wrong, its hard to get someones tone on a forum, but thats my guess.

Just enjoy the friendly banter :icon_cheers:


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## MarkBastard (23/2/12)

This thread is hilarious because it's a total role reversal.

Nick JD, the pioneer of breaking rules and doing whatever to make beer easily is getting his back up about not fermenting yeast at an ideal temperature.

I normally tend to take Nick JD's side because he puts theory and bullshit aside and talks about his own experiences and how they work for him, however this time I can not. Nick it sounds like you brewed a batch and got fruity esters and now you're the authority? And the commercial brewer and competitive judges must be wrong. That just doesn't hold up.


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## petesbrew (23/2/12)

Ross said:


> For those interested.
> 
> For German style lagers We use 25gms of S-189 in 55L of wort, fermented for 9 days in an airconditioned cold room set at 19c. The floor is the same temp as the air. The beers are then cold conditioned for 9 days at 1c, but this is primarilly to drop the yeast before filtering. It doesn't IMO have any noticable effect on the "fruitiness", as we taste all the beers when taking final gravities before transferring.
> For aussie style lagers we use 25gms of S-23 exactly as above.
> ...


This is the same for a lot of us. And if there's a lager yeast that can get good results at those temps, then why not promote it?


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## MarkBastard (23/2/12)

petesbrew said:


> This is the same for a lot of us. And if there's a lager yeast that can get good results at those temps, then why not promote it?



Exactly. If it's true (I believe it is as I've sampled their lagers), then it's really handy information for home brewers. You can get away with higher temps, less fermenting and lagering time, and less yeast! Some people will like that and it may make them more likely to actually make lagers.


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Mark^Bastard said:


> This thread is hilarious because it's a total role reversal.
> 
> Nick JD, the pioneer of breaking rules and doing whatever to make beer easily is getting his back up about not fermenting yeast at an ideal temperature.
> 
> I normally tend to take Nick JD's side because he puts theory and bullshit aside and talks about his own experiences and how they work for him, however this time I can not. Nick it sounds like you brewed a batch and got fruity esters and now you're the authority? And the commercial brewer and competitive judges must be wrong. That just doesn't hold up.



My experience:

I used a whole rehydrated pack of S189 and pitched it onto 18L of a 1.045 Wey Pils (touch of Melanoidin) with 30 IBUS of Saaz and Tett at 19C and there were an undesirable amount of esters in a beer that should have had none. No amount of conditioning fixed it. In my own experience S189 shouldn't be fermented at a 19C ambient - but I did it before I knew Ross's setup meant he HAD to, and if he could ferment his lagers at lager fermenting temps, he would.

I have fermented over 30 batches with S189. Between 12C and 14C I find it is much less fruity. 

Anyway, I've since sent an emal to Pilsner Urquell telling them they're doing it wrong. S189 @19C FTW!


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## MarkBastard (23/2/12)

If someone followed your brewing instructions, left their pot on their garage floor overnight, and got an infection that made their beer taste like pine'o'clean and called you an idiot what would you think?

Make sure you tell PU that they're doing it wrong with their mashing techniques as well! They could do it for just $30!


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If someone followed your brewing instructions, left their pot on their garage floor overnight, and got an infection that made their beer taste like pine'o'clean and called you an idiot what would you think?



I'd tell them I won a competition using the same method.


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## HoppingMad (23/2/12)

Really gobsmacked by some of the comments on this thread on S-189.

S-189 at 19 degrees? Wow - I've never taken it beyond 12-14 myself. Don't the specs say keep it 9-15 degrees? Pretty wild idea.

I guess if you're shooting for something with a California Lager style ester in it then doing your batch this high would create one in that zone?

Personally I love the W34/70 fermented low myself. Nice and clean, but does come up dusty initially until you cellar a bit. 
But when you get it right the beer just disappears - it's that good.

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

HoppingMad said:


> I guess if you're shooting for something with a California Lager style ester in it then doing your batch this high would create one in that zone?



I guess the best way to find this out would be to buy the same Boh Pils FWK and pitch at the same rate as they do with S189 at 19C. Then lager for the same time at the same temp.

Then enter it in a comp and see how it places. 

Would be a great experiement for a number of reasons...


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## NickB (23/2/12)

I'm game if you are. We could not only have a battle of the Beers, but a Battle of the Nicks! Shall we say, aim for the QABC this year? Should be in September sometime. Shall we say, minimum 3 Months Lagering? That means into keg/bottle by June 1st 2012, then onto the comp 3 months later... I'm happy to make that a 'last date' type arrangement. You nominate yeast, and I'll go the s-189... Ferment temp for mine will be 19C and yours can be the same if you want a fair comp, or whatever the manufacturer recommends.

The one and only prerequisite of this comp is that we meet up at some point to try Ross' beer before hand. Many other samples are at our discretion.....


So....Deal Nick #2? 

EDIT: Obviously, being FWKs we would not be eligible for prizes, but I think as a 'feedback Only' experiment, very much worth it!


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## Pennywise (23/2/12)

I've brewed with s-189 at 19c and the beer was as far from fruity as an RIS is from being straw colored. Was it perfectly flawless? No, it did have a barely noticeable diacetyl issue (I don't like diacetyl so for me it's an issue). It wasn't with a fwk though


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

NickB said:


> I'm game if you are. We could not only have a battle of the Beers, but a Battle of the Nicks! Shall we say, aim for the QABC this year? Should be in September sometime. Shall we say, minimum 3 Months Lagering? That means into keg/bottle by June 1st 2012, then onto the comp 3 months later... I'm happy to make that a 'last date' type arrangement. You nominate yeast, and I'll go the s-189... Ferment temp for mine will be 19C and yours can be the same if you want a fair comp, or whatever the manufacturer recommends.
> 
> The one and only prerequisite of this comp is that we meet up at some point to try Ross' beer before hand. Many other samples are at our discretion.....
> 
> ...



I'll be entering a FWK fermented the same way Ross does it to see where it places and what score it gets. Wouldn't be much of a comp if we both do it.

Wait a mo - I just read again - FWKs aren't contestable? WTF?


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## NickB (23/2/12)

Not sure actually, will have to read up on the rules. I know that Ross' entries last year started an almighty debate. I'm probably wrong in that FWKs aren't allowed, but would need to clarify. If you want, I'm happy use the same recipe as Ross provided and brew my own to compete.... Is that a fair comp mate? If not, let's just grab a beer at some stage and argue like bastards 

Cheers


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## bradsbrew (23/2/12)

I'd be keen for a "lager off comp". Each person brews the same recipe, has to start ferment at the same gravity and have to use a lager yeast. ferment at your desired temp and condition for set amount of time. Judged by brewers and external judges at a set date.



Cheers


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## NickB (23/2/12)

I'd be in that for sure Brad. Let's tee it up. I'd assume we're all in favour of Florian NOT competing though. We'd like to have a chance


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## Dazza88 (23/2/12)

The s189 at 19C thing . . . .

When Ross says 19C in a cool room could you assume that in the middle of their fermenters maintain 19C during fermentation whilst 19C in a fridge may not maintain 19C in the middle of the ferementer? 

When i used s189 last year i think i always did it at 16C max because i assumed my reading on the side of the fermenter would be lower than in the middle, and thought that 16C gave some leeway. 

The lager off sounds good, as well someone doing some controlled ferments with s189; 5 brews all the same but fermented at different temps.


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## Tony (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Wait a mo - I just read again - FWKs aren't contestable? WTF?



:lol: 

tripple decoction it is!


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Tony said:


> :lol:
> 
> tripple decoction it is!



I've set myself a mission to get more than 10EBC from Wey Boh Pils ... and last week I burnt a mashout decoction. Fried the fecker  

Still - back on the horse!


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## Tony (23/2/12)

I doubt the pils mate we get is the same as what they use to make pilsner urquell.

They would be getting it contract malted to a certain specification to make the beer they want. most big breweries do it. 

If they are getting it kilned differently to add the colour without having to fry decoction pots in their garage...... id say your out of luck getting a similar result using tripple decoctions. It will help but wont make it the same.

They also use 3 different yeasts and blend the final result..... the wyeast one you buy is but one strain afaik.

I wonder if one of them is S-189 at 19 deg?


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## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Tony said:


> I wonder if one of them is S-189 at 19 deg?



Not by the sounds of it...

So is this all crap?

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi....3/urquell.html


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## Tony (23/2/12)

is that the old brewery or the new one?


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## Fish13 (24/2/12)

Tony said:


> I doubt the pils mate we get is the same as what they use to make pilsner urquell.
> 
> They would be getting it contract malted to a certain specification to make the beer they want. most big breweries do it.
> 
> ...



i belive PU still malt there own grains...


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## DJR (24/2/12)

Tony said:


> They also use 3 different yeasts and blend the final result..... the wyeast one you buy is but one strain afaik.




OK, off topic now, if they do ( i thought they used one, where is Gerard when you need him) then it's the H- strain, the D- strain and something else.

From what i can tell, 2001 is the H- strain which is also used by Gambrinus in the same complex. D- is 2278.

That article was from '97, so it'd be the old one. They have another brewery over in Poland I believe but we still get the stuff from Plzen

On topic, I have tried 2x packs of S-189 in a brew at about 18-20C, I didn't really like the result. It was a basic Pilsener I was trying to do, and it wasn't quite clean enough. But I didn't lager/CC it, which probably would have made a fair difference to the result.


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## the_new_darren (24/2/12)

Im still waiting to see if the comp Ross is "spruiking" about was the State Amateur competition??

tnd


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## donburke (24/2/12)

DJR said:


> OK, off topic now, if they do ( i thought they used one, where is Gerard when you need him) then it's the H- strain, the D- strain and something else.
> 
> From what i can tell, 2001 is the H- strain which is also used by Gambrinus in the same complex. D- is 2278.
> 
> ...



just on this, has anyone successfully blended these yeast on a home brew level to produce a cracker pilsner ?

might be worth a shot, say a smackpack of each ?


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## Rina (24/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Ross is a much, much better brewer than I - so this is only worth the 2c it was printed on - but this is what I've found in my case.


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=49743

h34r:


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## HoppingMad (24/2/12)

Wow there you go, just Rina's side thread and seems like plenty of people do it with fine results.

Just learnt something.  

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (24/2/12)

Rina said:


> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=49743
> 
> h34r:



Let me rephrase that, "Ross's employees are much, much better brewers than I - so this is only worth the 2c it was printed on - but this is what I've found in my case."

Double Ninja.  
h34r: 
h34r:


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## mckenry (9/4/17)

Necro alert.
There are a few other Swiss Lager at 19°C threads about, but chose this one to tack onto. Most though kind of fizzled out 2013/14


Is anyone still doing this? I'd like to know if its become a standard practice and what the results are.
Reason I ask is, I've been very impressed by the new(ish) range of dried yeasts available to us now. Pretty much enough that I'll go with dry for everything from now on, bar Hefe. Havent been impressed with dry wheat yeast yet, but thats getting O/T.
I used the MJ California lager at 19°C and it was a great Euro Lager knock off. MJ's promote this temp. range.
I'd like to try S-189 at ale temps. Fermentis states 9-22°C range, ideally 12-15°C.
Just thought I'd see if any brothers or sisters out there are doing this.


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## technobabble66 (9/4/17)

Yep. Done a few over the last 2 winters with S-189. 
I've done 2-3 batches sequentially on the yeast cake. I've varied the main fermentation temp from 13 to 16 to 17. All came out perfectly well. 
So I'd highly recommend it from my experience, though I've not really done many lagers overall. 
That MJ Californian lager strain looks great, but they're pretty specific about it working at 18-22*c. 
I'll likely continue to do lagers in the colder months to help with the lagering phase, if not the fermentation itself. So for me, the S-189 seems a better choice at the moment as my fermentation temp is more likely to be ~15-16*C than reliably hold 18+
If I was doing a lager in the hotter months, I' be very tempted to use the MJ Californian lager.


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## Bribie G (9/4/17)

Nice necro.

What happened to the individual sachets of S-189 that were supposed to be coming out?


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## Grott (9/4/17)

"189 YEAST 15G OVERSIZED BAG (INGREDIENTS: 100% FERMENTIS/SAFLAGER S-189)"

From Keg King.

http://cdn.kegking.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1080x/dc4f5d9b6c0b1ca5ac9e41dce4e31704/f/e/fermentis_oversized_large_.jpg


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## Bribie G (9/4/17)

Yes and you can get a similar pack from CraftBrewer (they both buy in the 500g blocks and repack).

I thought the Saflager people were bringing out individual branded packs like their S 23 etc.


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## GalBrew (9/4/17)

Bribie G said:


> Nice necro.
> 
> What happened to the individual sachets of S-189 that were supposed to be coming out?


Grain and Grape have the 11.5g packets on their website.

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/SQYJCAII-dried-brewing-yeast/8YEAST%20SAFLAGER%20S-189--fermentis-saflager-s-189-11-5g-swiss-


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## nosco (9/4/17)

I remember reading some great arguments about this yeast in some of the older threads. Before my time Im afraid *_sigh_*


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## technobabble66 (9/4/17)

Big Dave at Greensborough HBS also has the individual packets, so I'm sure a few others in Oz will 'ave 'em. 

S-189 rocks!


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## Lionman (10/4/17)

SO what temps can this yeast handle before it's a 'bowl of fruit'?


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## Cosh (10/4/17)

I really don't like S-189, I've used it so many times at 10 deg, 12 deg and 18 deg and it just comes through as bland and boring, no matter what style.

I much prefer W34/70 or WY2124 for lagers.


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## laxation (10/4/17)

Forgive me if it was somewhere in the first 4 pages, but I got sick of reading about retailer/competition politics real damn quickly...

What happens if you brew a lager yeast at warmer temps?
I don't have a fermentation fridge but I like cheap tap beers like VB & wouldn't mind making something similar (i dont care, shoot me - i like cheap beer)


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## mtb (10/4/17)

laxation said:


> What happens if you brew a lager yeast at warmer temps?


You'll get some potentially unwanted esters but I have fermented a couple lagers at warmer temps (nothing over 18C) and they turned out nice.



laxation said:


> I like cheap tap beers like VB & wouldn't mind making something similar (i dont care, shoot me - i like cheap beer)


Nothing wrong with that mate, anyone who tells you otherwise can shove it.


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## laxation (10/4/17)

mtb said:


> Nothing wrong with that mate, anyone who tells you otherwise can shove it.


My sister likes to rub it in my face while drinking $60 cases of beer paid for with disability ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What would happen if you brewed at 20-24 degrees with a lager yeast?
Or similarly an ale yeast at cold, sub-20 temps?

I haven't brewed in my house during winter so really not sure at all what temperature I will be getting...

Oh and just googled Ester, is that a fruity flavour?


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## mtb (10/4/17)

Sub-20 for an ale yeast is what you should be aiming for (18C or thereabouts). Dependent on the yeast strain though.

Can't speak for what will happen if fermenting a lager around the 20-24C mark but I'd say you would get strong esters. Your googling is correct, esters are fruity, but in my experience not pleasantly fruity. More like cheap white wine. YMMV though.

Your best course re your sister is to one-up her with some brilliant home brews. If I manage to produce a cracker of an ale, my commercial craft beer-swilling friends often tell me they couldn't enjoy a bottle of commercial after having one of mine because it tastes like crap in comparison h34r:


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## laxation (10/4/17)

Cool thanks for that.



mtb said:


> Your best course re your sister is to one-up her with some brilliant home brews. If I manage to produce a cracker of an ale, my commercial craft beer-swilling friends often tell me they couldn't enjoy a bottle of commercial after having one of mine because it tastes like crap in comparison h34r:


Eh, I'll just sit quietly and let her drink what she wants...


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## wereprawn (10/4/17)

laxation said:


> My sister likes to rub it in my face while drinking $60 cases of beer paid for with disability ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> What would happen if you brewed at 20-24 degrees with a lager yeast?
> Or similarly an ale yeast at cold, sub-20 temps?
> ...


You should get an agreeable beer by using an mex cervesa kit , following instructions , except for a few things . Sub the 500g of booster for 300g of white sugar, boil 500ml of water and remove from stove ,add 10g of Pride of Ringwood hops, cover and allow to steep for 10 minutes . Cool the pot in a sink of iced water and add to the brew leaving most of the hop debris behind. Use Nottingham yeast and place fermentor in the coolest spot in your home, which should be 12c -16c for a clean lager-like beer.


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## laxation (10/4/17)

Does your recipe taste at all like mexican beer? Not a fan of that...


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## wereprawn (10/4/17)

laxation said:


> Does your recipe taste at all like mexican beer? Not a fan of that...


No. More in the vein of Carlton or VB.


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## Bribie G (10/4/17)

:icon_offtopic: If you want a yeast that can trot along at up to 24 degrees try Wyeast Irish Ale 1084, which is supposedly a close relation of Guinness yeast.
However not just for stout, it works very well in an ale and you could try using just base malt to go for a fake "lager" using Aussie hops such as Superpride for that VB effect. 

Dublin Guinness is pitched at around 20 and allowed to rise naturally to just under 25 degrees, I've used it in award winning dry stouts and it doesn't seem to chuck fruit.

As MHB would confirm, Guinness brewery yeast used to be the major home brew yeast in the UK several decades ago. Guinness in bottles, back then, was bottle conditioned so the yeast was readily available for reculturing and was noted for accepting just about any punishment that the home brewer could inflict on it.


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## laxation (10/4/17)

wereprawn said:


> No. More in the vein of Carlton or VB.


Cheers, will give it a go! Are you saying to use just the Kit and 300g sugar? 
Or is it sugar + 1kg of malt?

Maybe do it trying that guiness yeast too...


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## wereprawn (10/4/17)

laxation said:


> Cheers, will give it a go! Are you saying to use just the Kit and 300g sugar?
> Or is it sugar + 1kg of malt?
> 
> Maybe do it trying that guiness yeast too...


Swap out 500g of the dry malt for for 300g of sugar.


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## Lionman (10/4/17)

I would probably lean towards dextrose (brewers sugar) rather than sucrose (table sugar) though.

Sucrose can have a bit of a cidery flavour after fermentation, which will be more apparent with the ~20IBU of a weak as piss Australian beer.

Dextrose should ferment out a bit cleaner.

What gives Australian beers there distinctive flavour is Pride of Ringwood hops, or Super Pride hops (a stronger variety of Pride of Ringwood). If you brew a mild ale with these you'll get an "Australian" tasting beer.


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## mckenry (14/4/17)

mckenry said:


> Necro alert.
> There are a few other Swiss Lager at 19°C threads about, but chose this one to tack onto. Most though kind of fizzled out 2013/14
> 
> 
> ...


Well,
I'm doing it! Having had success with MJ's California Lager at 19°C I want to see if Fermentis' S-189 can do it too. The MJ made a great Euro Lager clone at 19, but I couldn't get the same hops this time round, so its not a perfect comparison. I used Dr. Rudi to ~18IBU last time.

For the record and my lack of memory when I come back here to report...
83% JW Pils
12.5% Carapils
3% Acid
1.5% med crystal
Mashed in at 55 for 0
64 for 60
72 for 10
78 for 10
75min boil.

Magnum @60mins to ~20IBU

Pitched 4 packets (46g) rehydrated (half hour at 23°C) into 45L of 1.047 wort at 20.3°C.
Fridge set to 19°C and wort reached that within the hour.

Here's hoping....
One thing's for sure. I'm having a better 'good' Friday than Jesus was a couple of thousand years ago +/-


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## Dr_Rocks (14/4/17)

mckenry said:


> Well,
> I'm doing it! Having had success with MJ's California Lager at 19°C I want to see if Fermentis' S-189 can do it too. The MJ made a great Euro Lager clone at 19, but I couldn't get the same hops this time round, so its not a perfect comparison. I used Dr. Rudi to ~18IBU last time.
> 
> For the record and my lack of memory when I come back here to report...
> ...


Holy wowzers, four packets of yeast rehydrated for a 1.047 beer. Super-yeasties!

Do you get a super quick start with that much being pitched?


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## GalBrew (14/4/17)

Dr_Rocks said:


> Holy wowzers, four packets of yeast rehydrated for a 1.047 beer. Super-yeasties!
> 
> Do you get a super quick start with that much being pitched?


I usually pitch 30g into a 23L batch. Works great, works fast.


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## mckenry (14/4/17)

Dr_Rocks said:


> Holy wowzers, four packets of yeast rehydrated for a 1.047 beer. Super-yeasties!
> 
> Do you get a super quick start with that much being pitched?





GalBrew said:


> I usually pitch 30g into a 23L batch. Works great, works fast.


Yep. In some previous posts, maybe another thread, I cant remember, I said I pretty much aim for 1g/L.
That takes into consideration that there may have been some degradation due to poor handling, age and temp over its time.
Also, yes, its a fairly fast take off, fermentation is complete in 3 days and I always hit predicted FG.
In my opinion, dry yeast is so much easier and actually more reliable (unless you have a microscope for cell counts) than liquid. With the ever expanding range of dried coming onto the market, I'm sure there will be a competitor for each liquid strain soon enough.
Been brewing now for 20+ years and spent so much time washing yeast, culturing, stepping up and *wasting* yeasts that I never got back to...
I dont brew to save $. A whole brew day, what's a few extra bucks to pitch at 1g/L and save hours culturing yeast?


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## mckenry (25/4/17)

mckenry said:


> Necro alert.
> There are a few other Swiss Lager at 19°C threads about, but chose this one to tack onto. Most though kind of fizzled out 2013/14
> 
> 
> ...





mckenry said:


> Well,
> I'm doing it! Having had success with MJ's California Lager at 19°C I want to see if Fermentis' S-189 can do it too. The MJ made a great Euro Lager clone at 19, but I couldn't get the same hops this time round, so its not a perfect comparison. I used Dr. Rudi to ~18IBU last time.
> 
> For the record and my lack of memory when I come back here to report...
> ...


Well, I've done it. I can confirm from my sample pool of 1, that S-189 at 19°C gives a very Euro-Lager megaswill result.
I'm impressed. Maybe Mangrove Jacks Cali Lager was a fannyhair better, but, as above, might be the hops...
Either way, I'm happy that its acceptable, I'm not tipping 50L and the brewday wasnt wasted.
For the record.
1g/L pitch, hydrated. Pitched at 20, setpoint 19.
3 days at 19°C and all done.
yeast dump day 5.
Fridge set to 1.5°C for crash chill. Finings added.
5 days at 2°C (wouldnt go lower - and takes a day to get there for those doing the maths)
Filtered and kegged day 11.
Awesome if you're after a Euro knockoff. Very Heineken, Becks, Carlsberg kind of memories are flooding back.
11 days grain to brain for a lager? That'll do me.
Quick carb - been kegged 10 mins by the time these photos were taken.


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## fungrel (25/4/17)

Just kegged a cream ale that I pitched and fermented at 14c with 189, and it finished in under 10 days with a very acceptable level of esters for a cream ale.


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