# Using a 40L Electric Urn for BIAB - a guide



## Bribie G

*Using a 40L Electric Urn for BIAB - a guide*​


​For a comprehensive guide to BIAB in general, see the thread airlocked in this sub forum.
This article is a re-write of one from about 7 years ago that ended up in the Partials sub forum.

*INTRODUCTION*

40L electric urns are now widely used, as they lend themselves to Brew in a Bag (BIAB), an All Grain method that was largely developed and refined in Australia.
The popularity of BIAB derives mostly from its being a 'one pot' method with no need to buy and operate three separate vessels with associated plumbing and in many cases pumps etc.

Many BIAB brewers have taken this method one stage further by using an electric urn, thus doing away with the need to buy gas bottles and burners or the need to drill or modify a large stockpot or a keggle. Add a brewing bag or voile sheet and the 40L urn is virtually a 'turn-key' brewery ready to go out of the box. It remains the the cheapest ready-made electric brewing solution and has produced award winning brews.

Here's a points summary of BIAB using a 40L urn so we know what we are going to cover in this guide. Then a fuller description of the necessary equipment and a walk through of the process.
It's assumed that a “standard” 23L brew is happening here using a 40L urn.



Heat 30 to 35 litres of water (liquor) to strike temperature, around 2 to 3 degrees hotter than the desired mash temperature.


Turn off the power to the urn


Fit a bag or circular sheet of Swiss Voile large enough to completely fill the urn


Quickly and thoroughly stir in the grain bill and put the lid on.


Insulate the urn to keep the temperature steady during the mash.


Remove the insulation and raise the bag to drain the wort back into the urn.


Bring to the boil, dispose of the spent grain.


Add hops, using a hop sock or hop bag if required.


Add kettle finings at the end of the boil.


Raise hopsock if you used one, put lid on urn and allow to boil just long enough to sterilise the head space, then switch off the power to the urn.


Leave for around 20 minutes for the trub to settle to the bottom of the urn, then run the clear wort into a chiller or a no-chill cube.

*Urn*
There are two main brands of urn available in Australia, Birko and Crown. In recent years Buffalo urns from the UK have appeared and other lesser known brands pop up on E bay.
Crowns are priced from $270 to $295 (March 2016) from our forum sponsors which represents excellent value; they haven't gone up much in the last 7 years. Best to buy from forum sponsors, or a local hospitality warehouse if they have good deals on.

Birko is a good urn, but Crown seems to be the most popular nowadays, since issues with the concealed element cutting out were fixed. They have consulted with home brewer suppliers to make their product more suitable. As with Birko, an exposed element model is available. Jury is still out on which is best for brewing. Personally I'd go the concealed element nowadays for ease of cleaning.
Buffalo urns have a following in the UK and they report good results. Now available from Australian suppliers.

Some brewers acquire 30L urns. Single Volume BIAB is possible but a sparging step might be needed due to the smaller volume of these urns. Not covered here, but not difficult, it just requires a source of sparging water and a collecting vessel such as a nappy bucket.

*Bag*
Swiss Voile is the most popular material, it's a thin light polyester curtain material available from Spotlight, about $15 for enough material to make a bag. Birko urns are a bit shorter and wider than Crown urns so I won't offer exact measurements, but the best bag design is exactly like a can of baked beans with a circular bottom section. This will hang like a teardrop on hoisting.

I use a hemmed circle of voile that's almost indestructible and dead easy to empty and clean, but bags still have their followers. Available ready made from online HB suppliers. I'll just use the term “bag”.


*Hoisting the Bag*
A “skyhook” and pulley system is a cheap and effective way of hoisting the bag. Many strapping young brewers are put off by the difficulty in pulling out and draining a heavy scalding hot bag.
A double pulley setup can be made cheaply from bits from hardware stores. My 81 year old lady friend who had a stroke can raise it with one hand.
Here's a threading diagram, if your upper “block” doesn't have a ring at the bottom, called a “beckett” then just attach the fixed end of the cord (the opposite end of the cord to the end you pull on) to the rafter or whatever you are hanging the hoist from. This does the same job.




Here's my setup.







Now see what I've done here: a small SS hook attached to a hangman's noose.
So after throttling the bag with the noose, just attach the hook to the bottom ring of the pulley block and hoist. To dispose of the grain simply unhook the bag and take it away.

On hoisting, the cord can be tied off and the bag left to drip at its own pace while the wort is raised to the boil.
Learn to do a hangman's noose until you have it down pat, it's the most useful knot for BIAB and I use it for everything as you can see from the photos.

*Other Equipment*
Most of the below is common with other methods of wort production but are here is a checklist:
Depending on which methods you use, you may not need all the items. I have not gone into No-chill equipment, which is not part of BIAB although a popular method, except to say that whatever cooling method you use, replacing the urn tap with a ball lock tap will enable you to fit a silicone hose which is difficult to do with the 'native' urn taps.

Urn
Extension Cord
Bag
Mash Paddle and spoons
Timer
Rack to keep bag off the urn element
Accurate 'stick' thermometer
Scales accurate to 1g
If using a skyhook: Awning rope, pulley
If passive lagging: Sleeping bag, doonah
Circle of bubble wrap same diameter as the urn
Refractometer or hydrometer to check wort gravities
Gardening gloves or heavy duty rubber gloves

This will get you brewing grain beers and set yourself free for less than $400 (excluding fermentation side gear), if you shop around and no doubt you will have many of these items already if you are brewing using other methods.


*METHOD*

*Prepare the strike liquor*
It is essential that you have a good thermometer, an electronic probe kitchen style thermometer is ideal for mashing. I don't fiddle with the temperature knob on the urn, I just leave the urn dial on maximum all the time.
Most 5% brews will require about 33L of strike liquor. A good brewing software such as Beersmith or Brewers Friend will help you fine tune this.

*Check grain temperature*
While the urn is heating I add any water salts and check the temperature of the milled grain I am going to mash. As a rule of thumb I allow three degrees hotter strike water than the starting mash. So if I'm aiming for a mash at 66 I would _generally _heat the strike liquor to 69. Give the liquor a good stir so you aren't measuring the temperature of a convection plume.

However, grain temperature can alter this by up to a degree. Check your brewing software to see if it has a strike temperature calculator that takes grain temperature into account. Brewmate and Beersmith have this feature, which is handy for cold weather.

*Avoid the bag coming into contact with the element*
If you intend to do step mashes or a mashout, you'll obviously need to keep the bag away from the element.

A good piece of kit is a curved roasting rack that you'll find in most upmarket kitchen shops. Preferably SS, around $15
Attach a length of brickie's twine to the rack so you can fish it out after mashing.



*Fit the bag*
Switch off the power, lower the bag and clip it round the edges of the urn with clothes pegs. Some commercial bags have a drawstring or are elasticated.

*Dough in*
Add the grain bill in a thin stream and stir constantly with a large spoon to avoid doughballs. Then give the mash a good up and down rousing with a metal paint stirrer or a good stir with whatever other mash paddle you have on hand.


*Cover and lag*
If you float a circle of bubble wrap on top of the mash (bubble side down) then put lid on urn, this will stop most heat escaping through the lid.
After using several methods over the years I find that a cheap $12 doonah from Big W makes a very good insulator, just wrap around and secure loosely with a bungee cord or two.
You should get about one and a half degree per hour drop in temperature, which is more than acceptable as most saccharification will take place in the first half hour. Some BIABers have their urn permanently lagged with cut-up camping mat but still wrap with extra insulation while mashing.
I normally do 60 min mashes with simple infusion mashes.

*Step Mashing *
BIAB in an urn is an ideal system for doing step mashes very easily, and is one of the clear advantages over 3 vessel brewing.
It's simply a case of turning on the power and ramping up the temperature between rests whilst occasionally pumping up and down with a suitable mash paddle and of course keeping a close eye on temperature. During each rest, the urn is re-lagged.

Popular step mashes include the Hochkurz mash as used in Germany:
62 degrees for 40 mins (Saccharification rest), 72 degrees for 40 mins (Dextrin rest) then 78 degrees for 10 mins (Mashout).
The final step, mashout, is easy with BIAB in an urn because you are going to heat the wort to boiling point anyway, and for mashout you just let the mash go along for the ride on the way up.

_*Specific Warning on protein rest. *_
_If, as part of a step mash, you want to try a protein rest at around 52 degrees you will have to do it with a thicker mash, then step up to over 60 degrees by using boiling water to bring up to your desired mash volume. Then let it rest for a while before ramping further. _
_At low temperatures there will have been little conversion of starches to sugars and if you switch on the urn at this point you are likely to burn starchy “flour” onto the element causing scorching, blackening of the element and a complete cut out. _

*Hoist the bag *
BIAB being a simple and quick method, the temptation is to say “how easy is this” then pull the bag out as quickly as possible.
This can result in a lot of turbulence and junk ending up in the wort.

Whilst a firm filtering grain bed does not form in the bag in the same way as a system such as Braumeister or HERMS, it is easy to form a quite practical and good-enough grain bed in the bag by very gently lifting while the wort is ramping up to the boil – there is no reason to hurry.

That's one reason a skyhook and pulley system is so good, I've recently started gentle lifting and getting far less trub in the urn after boil.
Don't forget to fish out your rack from the bottom of the urn.
Once the wort is running crystal clear out from the bottom of the bag, a firm squeeze, starting at the top of the bag, will retrieve the maximum amount of wort.
There are dedicated squeezers and dedicated non-squeezers. Up to you.




*Boiling*
With BIAB there is nearly always more turbid matter in the boil than with systems such as HERMS or Braumeister. A good way to keep turbidity down is to use a hopsock or hop spider. In my case I peg a grain bag right around the top of the urn and let hops flowers and pellets have their own “swimming pool”.

The grain bags sold by CraftBrewer, as well as paint strainer bags from decorator shops, retain most of the hop material including pellets but give perfect extraction as the steam and boiling has to go up through the bag while boiling.




The hop bag can be throttled and hoisted as well, to drain completely at the end of the boil.
The jury is out on whether turbid wort in the boil is better than clearer wort, but that aside, it's a fact that trub robs your volume of beer and costs money in the long run.

*At the end of the boil*
Don't forget Kettle Finings such as Whirlfloc.
Brewbright or Brewbrite is a newish kettle fining that also reduces chill haze in the finished beer.

When finished, remove hopsock and put the lid on the urn then move quickly to the wall socket and keep an eye on the urn, you will see some plumes of steam shooting out of the nostrils on the lid. Then switch off before the wort rises and foams out from under the lid. This should have nicely sanitised the headspace so you can safely leave it for about twenty minutes by which time the break and shyte will have settled right out.
You should get nice clear wort out of the urn. Any excess can be run into lab jars and allowed to settle out to add to the FV, use as starters etc.

BIAB's work is done.


Happy Brewing

*Bribie G, March 2016*


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## Beamer

Awesome stuff bribie thanks for step by step, just a quick question with step mashing, I have been reading Palmers how to brew and he says a rest at 40c for 20 min does not hurt at all, just wanting to know after a rest of 20 mins do you the hoist the grain out of the water and bring the water up to temp then lower back in or leave the grain in and give it a good stir till you reach next required temp??

Thanks,
Beamer


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## Bribie G

For any of the rests below 60 degrees I'd keep the urn turned off, do the rests with a thicker mash and use boiling water to raise the temperature.

If you read the warning section in blue, you'll note the danger of scorching the element because there's heaps of unconverted starch flour in the mash at those low temperatures that can smother the element.

For other steps I just leave the bag in, turn the urn on and stir / pump up and down frequently to distribute the heat as the mash warms up to the next temperature then turn the urn off and re-lag.


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## MastersBrewery

Top Work there Bribie, would certainly have helped me heaps when I first started.


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## Kumamoto_Ken

The original version of this article was an inspiration in terms of getting me into BIAB a couple of years ago, great stuff.

I have a question on the slower hoisting of the bag (I've always been a quick puller, so to speak). How slow is slow? Is it gradually over 10 minutes? 20?


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## Bribie G

Hi, Ken.. about ten minutes, raise a few cm at a time in between me doing stuff like sanitising cube, weighing hops etc.
I used to do the old "way hay and up she rises" hoist and heaps of murky looking wort would rush out initially.


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## Fents

Nice one bribe must of taken a bit of work, good guide for anyone wanting to go down the BIAB track.


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## Rocker1986

Bribie G said:


> _*Specific Warning on protein rest. *_
> _If, as part of a step mash, you want to try a protein rest at around 52 degrees you will have to do it with a thicker mash, then step up to over 60 degrees by using boiling water to bring up to your desired mash volume. Then let it rest for a while before ramping further. _
> _At low temperatures there will have been little conversion of starches to sugars and if you switch on the urn at this point you are likely to burn starchy “flour” onto the element causing scorching, blackening of the element and a complete cut out. _


I had this exact problem when I tried to do a full step mash on a pilsner last year. Gave up on it after the second try :lol:. It handles the Hochkurz mashes fine though, which is what I have used since.


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## RdeVjun

One of the best electric bag lautered guides around Bribie, very well constructed and plenty of detail. I've no hesitation in recommending this guide particularly considering the ever- growing gong collection.
Excellent point regarding the temperature setting on the urn, it isn't a substitute for a good thermometer.


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## BobtheBrewer

RdeVjun said:


> One of the best electric bag lautered guides around Bribie, very well constructed and plenty of detail. I've no hesitation in recommending this guide particularly considering the ever- growing gong collection.
> Excellent point regarding the temperature setting on the urn, it isn't a substitute for a good thermometer.


So no mashout anymore ?


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## Bribie G

When I started my "gentle bag lifting" thing I did it without mashout and found that it made no difference to my OG. Before that I always did a mashout because as I mentioned above, with BIAB you can just let the mash rise in temperature as you have the urn switched on anyway to get up to boiling point.

There's the general theory that this makes the wort more runny and you can get better extraction, but I haven't noticed that happening. Looking around the forums there's been a lot of debate, particularly on Homebrew Talk and over there they seem to agree that mashout is good for slow lautering systems like fly sparge, as it locks in the composition of the brew.

I've been going half way in the last couple of brews and raising to 72 degrees before hoisting.


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## Peter80

Bribie

Just Two questions:

1. Do you pause the mash time while raising between steps? I do and I am not sure if I should or if it really would matter if I did not as I do a 90 min mash.

2. When you say lagged I am guessing you are referring to recovering with insulation. Probably a stupid question but I do not remember seeing the term before.

This is an amazing post and I wish I would have thought of the step mash with boiling water last time I used unmalted wheat. Made for a horrible boil with a cutting out urn.


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## Bribie G

That wheat can get claggy. Lagging is an old term I suppose. In the UK and Europe water pipes can freeze and burst in the winter and need to be lagged.

With a single infusion mash I take the mash up into the 70 s to make sure that the starch conversation is complete but no need to pause. 

For something like a Hochkurz mash you need to treat each step as its own little mash and only put the urn on while you are ramping up to the next step.


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## BobtheBrewer

Bribie G said:


> Hi, Ken.. about ten minutes, raise a few cm at a time in between me doing stuff like sanitising cube, weighing hops etc.
> I used to do the old "way hay and up she rises" hoist and heaps of murky looking wort would rush out initially.


Looks like you don't whirlpool anymore. Is that correct?


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## Bribie G

I've never had success whirlpooling, I think the element kicks up too much interference. Do you use an urn and if so do you find it works for you?

Actually come to think of it, the concealed element should allow whirlpooling ( lightbulb moment)


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## BobtheBrewer

Bribie G said:


> I've never had success whirlpooling, I think the element kicks up too much interference. Do you use an urn and if so do you find it works for you?
> 
> Actually come to think of it, the concealed element should allow whirlpooling ( lightbulb moment)


Yes, I have a concealed element urn and whirlpooling works for me.


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## BobtheBrewer

Can't you edit your posts anymore? Further to the above, I tried your new method, no mashout, but I still got the same amount of trub. I did give the mash a fair pump before pulling the bag slowly. May try giving that a miss the next time. Hit all my figures so yes, mashout doesn't appear to make a difference as far as absorption goes. Saved a bit of time though.


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## RdeVjun

Bribie's willingness to challenge the status quo and research through repeated testing and experimentation over many years has been such a boon, yielding real dividends in this landmark Electric Urn BIAB guide. IMO, its another demonstration that, as with many brewing techniques that have their origins in commercial brewery setting, there is not the necessity to replicate each and every step and element of the process and the derivatives now common in home brewing are also subject to scrutiny; folks find this out through light bulb moments such as we see above, followed up with experimentation and exploration.
BIAB, or more generally a raised mesh lautering, has challenged the lauter orthodoxy and is now firmly rooted to the amateur brewers' techniques landscape. However, once the lautering is completed and all the liquor is generated, the BIAB aspect becomes irrelevant- as far as the kettle and boil go, there's scope to deconstruct that process some more too.
Its a bit out of scope here in this thread as I BIAB in a 36L kettle on gas, usually with a sparge step which doubles as the mashout, but FWIW I've not focused on a particular sparge/ mashout temperature and I haven't noted much benefit for my process. It seems to me that it is probably more beneficial in a commercial setting where every gravity point is accounted for, and repeatedly, but also the process may take longer to complete at a much larger scale.
As far as whirlpool goes, I don't, but I do use a large scrubby pickup and hops flowers where possible, with a 20 minute pause after flame out to permit settling of debris and break material before draining, usually into a no- chill cube.


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## Bribie G

+1

That was easy. haha

(thanks for analysis RdeV  )

Bob, I've been just lifting gently, as I reckon all the useful wort will make it into the kettle anyway. I'm coming to the conclusion that pumping up and down at the end chucks a lot of cloudy stuff back into suspension that had probably settled out nicely during the mash step.

Now, my next brew is going to be a double batch of a Burton style, two BIAB brews end to end, then combined in my 60L FV. What I'll do is a pump with the first batch then a no-pump with the second and see what eventuates.

Ed: a further test would be to do a Hochkurz mash but, at the end, re-lag the urn then leave to rest for half an hour before gently hoisting.


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## jayjt29

Great info Bribie, ive been using the BIAB method for few years and not had one bad batch. The only difference being i used no hoist, just lifted the bag into a spare fermenter bucket on top of a colander to drain the remaining wort or sparge some water over it. Then pour that back into the urn 

Cheers
Jay


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## stm

Great guide Bribie. This is what I'll be pointing every interested person to, from now on.

One typo: "trub robs your volume of beer" should that be "trub robs your beer of volume"?


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## Bribie G

Or maybe a part of your volume?


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## stm

Ha, now I'm really confused! Maybe just "trub robs you of beer"?


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## lost at sea

just to (hopefully) contribute something helpful to the BIAB team, when looking for a decent pulley setup for my BIAB i was hoping to rig something with a mech advantage of 3 or 4, but the cost of doubles is pretty steep, so i had my one lightbulb moment for 2017 and found on fleabay a boat trailer winch for $30 delivered which i mounted to the wall of my garage (i brew in the same spot every time) 
the winch is geared so you can hoist it one click at a time if you wish with barely an ounce of effort required. can also lower in reverse gear as well....

Link for the trailer/BIAB winch on ebay, no affil blah blah, $30 free delivery, works perfectly. 

http://www.ebay.com....b38f5651&_uhb=1

here it is in action defying laws of gravity in my garage for some reason...


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## hdawson

Excellent post Bribie.
My 20 year old twin double welded kegs seem a bit rustic now.
Ha Ha!
But the principles remain the same.
I have forwarded your post to my brother who is keen to brew, but looks at my set-up as something from the 19/20th century.
I'm also interested in your slow hoist as an alternative to my long held " get it out ASAP " method.
Keep up the good work mate and cheers.


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## Schikitar

Hi guys, I just bought one of these urns today, just wondering what's the best way to clean them out after a brew (I want to make sure I have everything on hand before I get started)? Cheers!


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## Bribie G

I just hose it out, then take a "non scratch" green kitchen pad to clean the whole inside. Is yours a concealed or exposed element? Mine is an exposed element and I clean it off with a SS scouring "ball". Every now and again, for show, I polish the outside with a SS polish like Metal Magic whatever.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Will reply when sober.


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## tj2204

If you get wort crusted on to the element chuck a bit of citric acid in with some water and bring to the boil. When it cools down the element will wipe clean with little effort.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

What Bribie says. Plastic scourer sponge over the inside and steel scourer for the element.


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## Bribie G

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Will reply when sober.


You sccrubbed up well.


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## Schikitar

Ah okay, I have a concealed element, just wondering how to clean around the temp probe mainly but maybe soaking in lemon/water, bicarb or white vinegar would work, or just good ol' PBW...


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## Bribie G

If you can get your hands on some pure sodium percarbonate, the active ingredient in napisan, various dishwacher cleaners etc, a strong solution will zap off any organic matter and a follow up with an acid should remove mineral scale.


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## Schikitar

Great, thanks Bribie! I'm sure I'll have many more questions once I get going but this guide on the first page has been an absolute goldmine!!


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## lost at sea

i have exposed element, i simply hose out to begin with, the fill with couple of litres of water and sod perc to cover the element, bring to boil and empty it out and wipe the element clean, easy as, never had to scrub it hard.


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## stm

Concealed element, I find that lemon juice (squeezed on and left for a few minutes) is sufficient to clean off the gunk.


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## Chap

For someone like myself wanting but unsure how to get into BIAB, this is an awesome guide. Thanks Bribie!


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## Schikitar

Got my first brew down (an oatmeal XPA) with this urn and my whole new setup, everything went well, no hiccups. Wort is currently in the cube, will hopefully transfer to fermenter and pitch today. The info in this guide and on these forums has been invaluable. Cheers!


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## Roosterboy

I have a 40 L crown urn and use a SS Brew filter basket.


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## Schikitar

Nice, where'd you pick that up from @Roosterboy? Does it drain well?


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## Stouter

Schikitar said:


> Nice, where'd you pick that up from @Roosterboy? Does it drain well?


Does look nice. I was wondering too though, how's it go when it's raised with the run off? Does it just run down to the bottom of the bucket without splashing over the sides?


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## Roosterboy

Schikitar said:


> Nice, where'd you pick that up from @Roosterboy? Does it drain well?


I had them made for me. It's sitting on a pull out little stand my son found. We sparge like that and it drains great.
We have put in it besides barley, oats , rice and seaweed . The 400 micron mesh filters it.


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## Roosterboy

No , there is no issue with running down the outside of the urn.


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## Dan_kville

Roosterboy said:


> No , there is no issue with running down the outside of the urn.


Where did you have it made if you don't mind?


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## Roosterboy

Dan_kville said:


> Where did you have it made if you don't mind?


Overseas but if you want one , we have one that we have used a few times , it was spare from the last batch.
If your interested , I would sell it for $100.


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## Dharug2300

Hi all, firstly I am a former kit brewer. 
I always used good quality kits (no coopers/tooheys), good yeast, malt/dextrose. I had a decent keg setup, however had to dispose of tthe setup prior to the dv. 
I was reading this, and I still have some 30L drums and a 30L 'Beer Boiler' with a concealed element, but a 40mm hole in the lid. 
I saw mention of Strike Liquor, is this like the intial fermentation process with kit beers? Hops, crushed grain, yeast & water?


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## Greenbrew8

Hello! Does anyone have a guide on how to perform a thermal bypass for the boil dry switch?
Thanks!


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## CrabbyPatty

Just going along with necro-ing this thread - what are people's thoughts on doing a BIAB sparging step in a separate vessel for super high gravity recipes. I am still brand new to AG and BIAB but I had a 10 kg grain bill in my 35L electric boiler with the goal of hitting 1.250 but only managed to get to 1.108. I was thinking about the possibility of having a sterilised esky off the side with a bit of 70degC water in it that I could drop the grain bag into for 20 minutes after the initial mash. I have seen that some people do it but was looking for some input from an expert.


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## hairydog

I think that could be possible with the esky idea and a longer boil with a kilo of Dex or sugar if the recipe calls for it.You will need a long boil and a slight reduced volume to get your numbers.I use a crown urn with a stainless mesh basket which can handle 8 KG max and managed to get 1.1 SG with a volume
of 19L in the fermentor.


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## beergee

I've just got to say that this is a fantastic guide.
I just came on it during my research prior to doing my first BIAB. Cheers Bribie for going to the effort of writing it up all those years ago!
Invaluable.


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## Wisey

This was the guide that got me started in AG... Dr Smuto's golden Ale. Same brew that has me coming back to brewing ten years later 

Got a Biab bag from Ross at craft brewer aswell


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