# Strongbow Clone



## Verbyla (19/4/09)

I've brewed a few ciders so far and most have turned out half decent.

My goal is to make a cider that taste just like a strongbow.

Anyone been successful with making a cider that taste like strongbow.

If so, anyone willing to share their recipe?

Also I've noticed that there's a bit of a shortage of cider recipe on the recipeDB. Again if anyone got a killer recipe that wana share? I'd love to hear them!!!!


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## manticle (19/4/09)

Verbyla said:


> I've brewed a few ciders so far and most have turned out half decent.
> 
> My goal is to make a cider that taste just like a strongbow.
> 
> ...



I'm a long way off perfecting a cider recipe. I'd personally steer clear of trying to make a strongbow as I reckon that's the worst cider on the market. Good luck to you though if that's what you like.

I made a juice and fresh apple based one thatcame out well except I can't seem to shake the horrible sulphite odour resulting from the use of potassium metabisulphite.

Next one I make will take the risk of avoiding it.

I'll be looking at using at least 3 or 4 different kinds of apples (a whole box, juiced), topping up with store bought juice and adding some light dried malt extract and either white wine yeast or a cider yeast if I can find one easily.

The malt should give sweetness as my current one is very dry. I understtand you can also stop fermentation earlier to retain some sweetness but I'm not sure how that works in regards to carbonation and bottle bombs.

Add all juice to sanitised fermenter
Leave for 24 -36 hours. 
Rack to second fermenter, leaving behind foam crud.
rehydrate dried yeast, add malt, allow to foam then add to fermenter.

That's very similar to my current one but without the potassium met and with some malt. We'll see how it goes.


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## tcraig20 (19/4/09)

manticle said:


> The malt should give sweetness as my current one is very dry. I understtand you can also stop fermentation earlier to retain some sweetness but I'm not sure how that works in regards to carbonation and bottle bombs.



Im not sure how malt would go in cider - Ive never tried it but Im curious. I think that it's unneccesary to add malt for sweetness or sugar/dex for dryness. 

The sweetness of cider can be managed through yeast selection - use a champagne yeast if you want something really dry, something like nottingham or s04 for the middle, and a low-attenuation yeast like windsor for a sweeter cider. 

You can manage it by stopping fermentation, but this only works for kegs that you force carbonate - doing it in bottles will always end badly.


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## Bribie G (19/4/09)

I love Mercury Cider, especially the sweet that isn't really all that sickly sweet as it has heaps of apple to balance it. Now as a Pom I know that in Australia, true cider apples aren't grown and I wonder if a search of UK sites and retailers could dig up some UK kits made on cider apples you could purchase online? Probably not too expensive to freight it here.


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## manticle (19/4/09)

JamesCraig said:


> Im not sure how malt would go in cider - Ive never tried it but Im curious. I think that it's unneccesary to add malt for sweetness or sugar/dex for dryness.
> 
> The sweetness of cider can be managed through yeast selection - use a champagne yeast if you want something really dry, something like nottingham or s04 for the middle, and a low-attenuation yeast like windsor for a sweeter cider.
> 
> You can manage it by stopping fermentation, but this only works for kegs that you force carbonate - doing it in bottles will always end badly.



Yeah it seems a point of contention. I know cider doesn't traditionally use malt but I've also seen some recipes here that like to add it. As far as I'm aware basic cider kits contain malt. I'm going to see how this one goes (I won't put in dextrose as I don't need to dry it out). Making ciders from fresh apples is a big step away from the brigalow kits I was using this time last year so now is the time to experiment and see if I can nail that perfect recipe.

I don't have a massive range of ciders that I've tasted but in order of preference:

Aspall
Bulmers 
Magners
Three Oaks
Scrumpy Jack
Mercuri
Pipsqueak
Strongbow

I find both pipsqueak and strongbow to be fairly bland, strongbow has the added downside of tasting cheap (like cheap white wine).

My aim is to get something going on like an aspall (strong apple flavour). A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to try some breton ciders at a Brittany style food cafe in Williamstown but being there for breakfast quite early in the morning, I listened to the angelic voice rather than the devilish one. I regret that now but williamstown isn't too far away so maybe I'll revisit.


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## manticle (19/4/09)

@OP 

Cider recipes here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scrumpy/cider/recipes.htm

and here: http://beerrecipes.org/findrecipe.php?beerstyle=Cider

I can't vouch for any of them.

Also a useful page on methods of breton cider making here: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/cider_1.htm

And because I can't edit my original post - I just remembered I added several nashi fruit and a few brown pears to my fresh apple/juice based effort.

I curse that potassium met. every time I open the bottle. Without it I reckon I would have struck a winner. I can drink it but I hesitate to give it away which is always a good indicator.


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## Melon (21/4/09)

We do actually have cider apples in Australia, the CSIRO did a study of French and English cider apples which they found some of which are already growing here. As I understand they're mostly in Tasmania and South Australia.

Personally I don't find any of the overseas recipes for Cider any use as I can't get any of the relevant ingredients locally.

I think the best yeasts to go with are either S04 or EC-1118. Ferment for 2 weeks, then bottle and age for 8-12 weeks.

I recently held a cider tasting event for a few close friends and Strongbow universally scored the lowest.
For the record Aspall Suffolk cider is amazing (as it should be).

I tried using malt in a cider brew but I wasn't keen on the effect. If you like some sweetness in the mix use Lactose instead.


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## tcraig20 (23/4/09)

Melon said:


> I think the best yeasts to go with are either S04 or EC-1118. Ferment for 2 weeks, then bottle and age for 8-12 weeks.



I find my ciders generally need about 6 months to become really enjoyable. If you can wait, its definitely worth it. 

At the moment I have a few bottles of Mar 2007 cider still about, fantastic - brewed with S04, and a Nov 2008 batch made with Windsor that is just starting to come into its own.


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## HoppingMad (24/4/09)

Just made a cider and bottling tomorrow. Was made with 100% apples put through a juicer. Went through 5 half full garbage bags of fruit to make a 21L batch so a bit of work involved.

Used Wyeast wy4184 Sweet mead with it. Wanted to use Wyeast cider yeast but craftbrewer had run out unfortunately. Got notified it was back in stock after had already got the yeast. Found threads recommending the 4184 yeast as it ferments leaving residual sugar so it pretty much guarantees a sweet cider. Strongbow would be pretty sweet too so this yeast will do the trick. Apparently the Wyeast Cider yeast can ferment out quite dry in comparison.

Some have mentioned cider apples. Did a lot of searches on the right apples to use - most ciders commonly use 4 types of apples: Delicious, McIntosh, Rome and Gravesteins. My cider was made with golden and red delicious apples.

If you use apples through a juicer you need to 'pasteurise' - effectively all this entails is heating the juice at a minimum of 71 degrees celcius for around one minute. Boiling the juice is a no-no. If you boil the juice you can add haziness to your cider and release pectins etc, so you really only have to heat for a short while below boiling point to ensure you've got rid of any ecoli bacteria nasties.

Here's the recipe I used (taken from a US site):

- 5 gallons (19L) fresh pressed cider (unpasteurised juice)
- 2 lbs (907g) light brown sugar
- wyeast sweet mead yeast 4184

FG: 1.008-1.010 
7 days primary ferment. Cold crash fermenter a further week in fridge to allow yeast and apple residue to drop down then bottle.

Brown sugar is not 100% fermentable apparently so it guarantees that even if your cider ferments dry you will be left with some residual sugar afterwards making it yum. The samples taken from my fermenter certainly taste that way - nice and sweet, so looking forward to bottling this and getting some fizz in! 

Cheers,

Hopper.


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## manticle (24/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> If you use apples through a juicer you need to 'pasteurise' - effectively all this entails is heating the juice at a minimum of 71 degrees celcius for around one minute. Boiling the juice is a no-no. If you boil the juice you can add haziness to your cider and release pectins etc, so you really only have to heat for a short while below boiling point to ensure you've got rid of any ecoli bacteria nasties.



Can you explain this bit further?

I'm making a cider tomorrow/saturday using fresh apples and previous stuff I've heard suggests cooking will give you the wrong flavour. Obviously your method holds back from that but is it like a mash (eg reach and hold at 70 for specified length of time) or is it reach 70 and cool straight away?

I don't want to use campden but I don't want infected shite..


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## RdeVjun (24/4/09)

manticle said:


> Can you explain this bit further?
> 
> I'm making a cider tomorrow/saturday using fresh apples and previous stuff I've heard suggests cooking will give you the wrong flavour. Obviously your method holds back from that but is it like a mash (eg reach and hold at 70 for specified length of time) or is it reach 70 and cool straight away?
> 
> I don't want to use campden but I don't want infected shite..


Not my OP or response, but the latter I'd say, although the slight holding time will increase the effectiveness of pasteurisation. Speaking from experience here, in cheesemaking we had a few go naff and put it down to inefficient, or rather, ineffective pasteurisation. The cooling is best achieved as quick as you can too, with a plate chiller or similar would be good.

BTW, I did a canned cider with some malt, wasn't too bad, but in future I'll try yeast to manipulate sweetness.


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## Melon (24/4/09)

JamesCraig said:


> I find my ciders generally need about 6 months to become really enjoyable. If you can wait, its definitely worth it.



Thats fair enough, 8-12 weeks is the minimum in my opinion. I guess for me the limiting factor has been the supply of champagne bottles. 

You've got to develop a relationship with your local function centre to get empties from wedding receptions etc. New Years, Mothers Day, Melbourne Cup are also great occasions to harvest heaps from your local pubs glass bins.


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## manticle (24/4/09)

Bought 7 kgs of various apples today. Funnily enough 5 kg cost $30 but then I went past stalls at the other end of the market where I could by 2 kgs for $3.

Oh well.

I'm hoping to make it today or tomorrow so if anyone knows about the pasteurisation method mentioned above please post here.

I don't want cooked apples but I also don't want 23 litres of ff crud.


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## Verbyla (25/4/09)

I haven't touched on making cider from scratch. I've always just used apple juice from the supermarket. I think the main reason behind not taking the next step and juicing my own apples is that i'm not confident on which apples to buy, what quantity/ratio for each type of apple and where best to buy them. 
Anyone able to help me out in any of the above areas?

I've noticed a lot of people saying that they use brown sugar to sweeten the cider as its not fully fermentable. Just recently found out that a really good way to make a sweet cider is to add around 400grams of lactose to a 21L batch as its not fermentable alongside 1kg of dextrose as it's fully fermentable.

Must admit that strongbow isn't the best cider out there either but with most of my ciders tasting very dry, having just found out that lactose is an easy way to sweeten things up and still using supermarket apple juice, I'm not going to try to strive for a cider like Bulmers quite yet. Although if anyone has a recipe that taste anything like Bulmers or Aspall please do tell 

Lastly, has anyone had a play around with the oztops cider making kit? If you haven't its worth trying as its a lot of fun to experiment with any type juice imaginable. Give it a google search if you haven't heard of it.


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## Uncle Fester (25/4/09)

Just adding my 2c

Recently made a cider with Aldi preservative free apple juice and Nottingham ale yeast.


Came out really nice. Since I kegged it, I added 500g of sugar dissolved in 1 litre of juice to the keg. Since it is holding @ 4 degrees, the sugar gives a sweet result without causing further fermentation (Keg is force carbed)

Can't say its a strongbow clone, but it is a bloody nice sweet cider.

I will definately do again, but this time I may use US-05 instead.

Fester.

(Ps: the Aldi apple juice was something like $1.89/2 litres, so the whole keg was about $21 inclusive of yeast)


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## manticle (25/4/09)

Ok here goes.

I'm taking a punt (taking into consideration some things I've read here and elsewhere)

Apparently pasteurisation is good for soft cider (although some claim it affectc the flavour) but for hard cider the ethnol should kill any e.coli.

I'm about to start a cider according to the following:

2 kg royal gala
2 kg Granny Smith
1 kg fuji
800g Red delicious
1 kg Jonathon
1 kg apples I bought yesterday but forgot to remember the name of (surprise element)
2 delicious unknown farm fresh apples given to me by some kind relatives
4 Nashi pear (brown)
4 litres preservative/added sugar free berri 100% apple juice
200g lactose
500g brown sugar
15g white wine yeast
10g nutrient


1 Juice all apples. 
2 Pour juice into fermenter with preservative free juice and allow to clarify for 48 hours.
3 Start yeast (rehydrate etc)
4 Rack to second vessel leaving crust behind
5 Add dissolved sugars
6 Take gravity reading
7 Top up to 20 L with boiled cooled water (no idea yet how much water that will be)
8 Take 2nd gravity reading andadjust sugar/water level to desired level (something between 1040 and 1060 is acceptable to me)
9 Ferment at 15 deg
10 when hits 1010 or lower rack again, , fine, leave then prime and bottle.

I'll post here how it goes as I'm taking a risk with wild yeasts but not the full risk (ie adding yast of my own).

If this works the next one might be a totally wild ferment.

If it doesn't I'm out a lot of apples and time.


For those curious about cider apples in Australia - I found this link:

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/hort...cider/varieties


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## tcraig20 (25/4/09)

manticle said:


> Apparently pasteurisation is good for soft cider (although some claim it affectc the flavour) but for hard cider the ethnol should kill any e.coli.



I think the risk of unpasturised apple juice is wild yeast from the apple skins imparting undesirable flavours rather than e. coli.

Still, sounds like it will taste great!


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## manticle (25/4/09)

To help prevent the wild yeasts taking over I'm clarifying the soft cider in my ferment fridge at around 5 deg C. As far as I'm aware temp should have no major effect on the clarification.

I reckon if I make a starter with the white wine yeast it should be virulent enough to dominate. If not I may get some interesting flavours. It's mainly making apple poison that concerns me so if I can avoid that withougt sulphites then I'm happy.

I got about 10.5 L of juice using the fruit and berri juice (that's 10.5 in the fermenter and possibly another 600 - 1000 mL on the floor). About an hour and a half to core, slice and juice the apples (as well as removing the stickers).

I look forward to it.

Unidentified apples were pink lady (I read the stickers). I reckon I missed close to 2 kg in my original recipe outline as I bought another 1.5 - 2kg at the supermarket yesterday. 9 kg various + 1 kg nashi + 2 unidentified farm apple (big red crisp and juicy)+ 4 L Berri all up. Depending on gravity after sugar additions, I'm looking at around 10L cooled, boiled water to be added after clarification.


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## manticle (28/4/09)

Racked the juice, added sugar and pitched the yeast last night. I wanted to make 20 odd Litres so I had to add extra sugar (another 500g brown sugar and about 750g or dextrose) to get my gravity up. This means there's a high water content (50/50 Juice/water) so I may have sacrificed flavour for volume. I may try a smaller quantity next time, or up the berri component as that's a lot of apples in a small juicer.


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## HoppingMad (28/4/09)

Apologies, a bit late on this one. Did a late night AG and then the AHB server was down yesterday so has taken me some time to get back to this thread.

Why pasteurise? Well from what I'd found this is why:

Unpasteurised (unheated) apple cider has been linked with illness caused by E. coli O157:H7 bacteria. If these bacteria are in the faeces of animals, birds etc, apples that fall on the ground could be contaminated. Pasteurisation kills harmful bacteria. 

Sorry guys, don't have the link anymore. 

Don't know anything about the wild yeast thing. If you're not fermenting in an open container and provided you're sterilising right then I wouldn't have thought it wouldn't be an issue. As an aside if you search around there are plenty of recipes that suggest using wild yeast and not adding your own - they suggest covering your fermenter with a tea towel and letting the stuff blow in :huh: . I wouldn't recommend this but an interesting science experiment!

Just bottled my recipe and it has finished very high in alcohol almost taking over from the taste of apples (a bit like sweet apple schnapps - finished at SG of 1). Next time I think I'm going to reduce the sugar addition and let the apples do their thing, but followed the recipe I listed to a tee. Looks like this one is going in the cellar for 3 months - hopefully it will improve. 

Hopper.


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## manticle (28/4/09)

References I found to e-coli were generally about soft (non alcoholic cider). I avoided ipasteurisation as I was worried about a cooked apple flavour coming through.

The wild yeasts are supposedly contained within the apples themselves so pen fermentation is not necessary - just clarify, then leave at low temperatures to ferment slow.

Never done it - that's just the info I found online.


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## HoppingMad (29/4/09)

Intreresting manticle, yeah can't find the link I had but found about 5 posts on different US forums that all said 'Oh if you're juicing apples or using a crusher then pasteurise'. Also read that the cooked apple taste only comes through if you boil. Boiling also means you'll have a cider that looks like the bottom of the yarra.

Tried a hydrometer sample after pasteurising and it was fine - no cooked taste at all. Tasted really good actually.

Once ferment was done no cooked taste either. One thing I will say is that if you can get the fermenter into a fridge for a week prior to bottling it does help everything clarify. Did that and my cider is really clear. That's one good thing I can say about it my cider. Just hope the apple 'hooch/grappa/schnapps' taste dies down. Wasn't planning on making 'apple wine' Only with cellaring will I know if I can iron out the sharpness I've got. 

Hopper.


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## manticle (29/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Intreresting manticle, yeah can't find the link I had but found about 5 posts on different US forums that all said 'Oh if you're juicing apples or using a crusher then pasteurise'. Also read that the cooked apple taste only comes through if you boil. Boiling also means you'll have a cider that looks like the bottom of the yarra.
> 
> Tried a hydrometer sample after pasteurising and it was fine - no cooked taste at all. Tasted really good actually.
> 
> ...



We'll see how mine goes. I only clarified (in fridge) for 48 hours before racking but the one I did last time was similar and that came out crystal clear.


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## HoppingMad (30/5/09)

Reviving an old thread, but had to share kids, exciting news.

The cider from the recipe posted earlier has come up a treat. Really yummy. With a month's cellar time it's come up well.
Good big apple flavour and the alcohol hoochieness has come right off. Anyone doing a cider like this I really advise cellaring, it's worth it.

Have read about cellaring cider made with real apples for up to 3 months before drinking and thought 'stuff that' now I understand why.

Hopper.


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