# Wlp800



## mfdes (20/8/07)

I just kegged an AG bohemian pilsner fermented with WLP800 Pilsen Lager. I pitched at 8 degrees, primary fermentation was 8-10 degrees (some slow fluctuation), allowed to rise to 16-18 degrees after 3 weeks for a diacetyl rest then kept cold for 2 weeks. Had a taste while I was kegging it and the acetaldehyde flavour is way overpowering!

I intend to keep at lager temperature (2-4 degrees) for a while, though space in the fridge is limited. How long till the acetaldehyde (bad cider / green apples) flavour mellows? 

Cheers,

MFS.


----------



## Sammus (20/8/07)

mfdes said:


> I just kegged an AG bohemian pilsner fermented with WLP800 Pilsen Lager. I pitched at 8 degrees, primary fermentation was 8-10 degrees (some slow fluctuation), allowed to rise to 16-18 degrees after 3 weeks for a diacetyl rest then kept cold for 2 weeks. Had a taste while I was kegging it and the acetaldehyde flavour is way overpowering!
> 
> I intend to keep at lager temperature (2-4 degrees) for a while, though space in the fridge is limited. How long till the acetaldehyde (bad cider / green apples) flavour mellows?
> 
> ...



How long was your diacetyl rest? I think your meant to leave it at about 18C for 3 days or so.

edit: just read in how to brew, Palmer says about 13-16C for 24-48hrs.


----------



## razz (20/8/07)

I think the key to an effective diacetyl rest is increasing the temp before fermentation is over. Did you check the gravity before your rest ? If fermentation was over before the rest commenced then I think you will now have to wait some weeks for the diacetyl to be consumed during the lager phase if at all.


----------



## mfdes (20/8/07)

razz said:


> I think the key to an effective diacetyl rest is increasing the temp before fermentation is over. Did you check the gravity before your rest ? If fermentation was over before the rest commenced then I think you will now have to wait some weeks for the diacetyl to be consumed during the lager phase if at all.



No, don't get me wrong... There is no noticeable amount of diacetyl... I did the 70 degree water test and there was little or no diacetyl in the finished product. Acetaldehyde on the other hand... 
Gravity when warmed up to diacetyl rest was 1.016 and the rest was 3 days, which was adequate (like I said, diacetyl is not a problem). FG was 1.012.

MFS.


----------



## Dr Gonzo (20/8/07)

> Acetaldehyde
> Acetaldehyde is perceived in both aroma and flavor as green apples, and in an oxidized state as acetic-cider. In the natural anaerobic fermentation process, Acetaldehyde is a precursor to ethanol:
> 
> Glucose -> pyruvic acid -> acetaldehyde -> ethanol
> ...



So it sounds like you just need to lager it for a few more weeks.


----------



## T.D. (17/8/09)

Just digging up this old thread. Very interesting to hear that there was some acetaldehyde issues with this yeast. I had a boston lager clone in the fermenter on this yeast and it tasted ok but had a really strong fruity aroma, which did have some similarities to apple juice. I can't think of anything other than acetaldehyde to explain it. The beer was pitched and fermented at almost the exact same temps as mentioned above (pitched at 8deg and fermented at 9-10deg), then at around 1.020 it was taken out of the fridge and finished at ambient temps.

Has anybody else had acetaldehyde issues with WLP800 (or the equivalent Wyeast Boh Pils strain)? And if so is there any way of dealing with it or correcting it?

Thanks :beer:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (17/8/09)

TD The classic causes of these type of problems are un-controlled fermentation and low pitching rates, I think I would suspect the later more so.I dont have any personal experience with White labs 800 but I have smelt and tasted the results of under pitching.
GB


----------



## therook (17/8/09)

T.D. said:


> Just digging up this old thread. Very interesting to hear that there was some acetaldehyde issues with this yeast. I had a boston lager clone in the fermenter on this yeast and it tasted ok but had a really strong fruity aroma, which did have some similarities to apple juice. I can't think of anything other than acetaldehyde to explain it. The beer was pitched and fermented at almost the exact same temps as mentioned above (pitched at 8deg and fermented at 9-10deg), then at around 1.020 it was taken out of the fridge and finished at ambient temps.
> 
> Has anybody else had acetaldehyde issues with WLP800 (or the equivalent Wyeast Boh Pils strain)? And if so is there any way of dealing with it or correcting it?
> 
> Thanks :beer:



Funny you should mention this Tim. I have just brewed ( 6 weeks ago ) Andrews Rice lager and also a German Pilsner using the equivalent Wyeast 2007.
Andrew and a couple of other people could detect a slight apple taste/aroma in the rice lager. The German Pilsner has no hints of apple, maybe this is due to it being pitched onto a huge yeast cake.
The flavour /aroma of the apples is more noticeable in the bottles than what's in the keg, also the kegged beer is crystal clear compared to the bottled stuff.

I'm looking forward to what others think

Rook


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (17/8/09)

therook said:


> Funny you should mention this Tim. I have just brewed ( 6 weeks ago ) Andrews Rice lager and also a German Pilsner using the equivalent Wyeast 2007.
> Andrew and a couple of other people could detect a slight apple taste/aroma in the rice lager. The German Pilsner has no hints of apple, maybe this is due to it being pitched onto a huge yeast cake.
> The flavour /aroma of the apples is more noticeable in the bottles than what's in the keg, also the kegged beer is crystal clear compared to the bottled stuff.
> 
> ...


Rook as to my previous post to TD , High use of adjuncts can give you the classic cidery taste and aroma.
GB


----------



## therook (17/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Rook as to my previous post to TD , High use of adjuncts can give you the classic cidery taste and aroma.
> GB




Nev, we must have posted at the same time....lol

I'm pretty sure my fermentation temps where ok as i have it sitting in fermentation fridge.....pitched at 9c and fermented at 10c so maybe my problem was underpitching.

Or having the fridgemate probe stuck to the side of my fermenter doesn't give me an acurate reading 

Rook


----------



## T.D. (17/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> TD The classic causes of these type of problems are un-controlled fermentation and low pitching rates, I think I would suspect the later more so.I dont have any personal experience with White labs 800 but I have smelt and tasted the results of under pitching.
> GB



Thanks GB, it may be this that is the cause. It was a VERY long primary ferment (almost 4 weeks) so that could also point to under pitching.

In Palmer's book he says it indicates that the beer is "too young", implying that it's effect should reduce with age/conditioning. Would you expect this to be the case in a lager - ie a good dose of lagering will sort it out?


----------



## Fourstar (17/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> TD The classic causes of these type of problems are un-controlled fermentation and low pitching rates, I think I would suspect the later more so.



I'd agree with this, with proper pitching rates, acontrolled fermentation and a ramp up at the end of fermentation it should provide enough healthy yeast to clear up any precursors. Whenever i brew lagers, they are always in brewed in groups of three, just incase i have a pitching problem with the 1st batch. The 1st batch is sacrificial but to date i haven't encountered any precursor issues on the final product. So id say my pitching rates have been close enough with the 1st pitch. As for the the 2nd and 3rd batches, i harvest the correct pitching rates and repitch, not only do i have the correct pitching rate but i also have a healthy developed 2nd and 3rd generation of yeast.

Edit:

TD: If you have not filtered, it may not hurt to let it sit at ambient, you may have enough transfered yeast to help clean up any acetaldehyde, other wise, lager away.


----------



## T.D. (17/8/09)

therook said:


> Funny you should mention this Tim. I have just brewed ( 6 weeks ago ) Andrews Rice lager and also a German Pilsner using the equivalent Wyeast 2007.
> Andrew and a couple of other people could detect a slight apple taste/aroma in the rice lager. The German Pilsner has no hints of apple, maybe this is due to it being pitched onto a huge yeast cake.
> The flavour /aroma of the apples is more noticeable in the bottles than what's in the keg, also the kegged beer is crystal clear compared to the bottled stuff.
> 
> ...



That's very interesting Rook. I have to say I didn't detect any apple aroma in the rice lager you sent me (great beer by the way :beer: ), so maybe it is something that dissipates with age.

Interesting that you ran into the same issue though. Lets hope that the Boh Pils I have pitched on the cake will fare better! Especially since you are due to get a bottle of it! If it doesn't turn out properly, you might get the full keg!


----------



## T.D. (17/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> I'd agree with this, Proper pitching rates, controlled fermentation and a ramp up at the end of fermentation should provide enough healthy yeast to clear up any precursors. Whenever i brew lagers, they are always in groups of three incase i have a pitching problem with the 1st batch its sacrificial but to date i havnt encountered precursor issues on the final product. So id say my pitching rates have been close enough with the 1st pitch. As for the the 2nd and 3rd batches, i harvest the correct pitching rates and repitch i not only have the correct pitching rate but i also have a healthy developed 2nd and 3rd generation of yeast.



Thanks Fourstar. In fact, my first batch was a sacraficial batch - it was a 15L jobbie with a can of Farmland Lager! :lol: . This was in lieu of a starter and I just pitched the vial of WLP into that and fermented at ambient temps. Then pitched the boston lager on the cake. Maybe even this wasn't a high enough cell count for an 8deg pitch???

I actually tipped the Boston last night and pitched the pils (wasn't sure if it was salvagable, turns out maybe it was...). I have another cube of the same wort (boston) so I will try that if the pils works out ok.


----------



## Fourstar (17/8/09)

T.D. said:


> Maybe even this wasn't a high enough cell count for an 8deg pitch???



Maybe you overpitched? Usually for lagers @1.050 i pitch 2/3rds - 1 cup of slurry, i'd say when fermenting out 15L you would have probabaly the same~ of slurry you would get from 23L, which is usually around 3 or so cups worth of thick slurry for me. Overpitching is quite hard todo though and its unlikly to provide the cause of your fault.

I'd still be betting on the temperature control at the end of fermentation and an extended rest period.


----------



## T.D. (17/8/09)

I doubt it was overpitched, it took 4 weeks to get from 1.047 to 1.015. And as I recall there wasn't a huge amount of slurry in the bottom of the fermenter after the Farmland starter had gone through. So I am banking on an underpitching issue. Hopefully that is rectified for the Boh Pils. I am also fermenting this one at 10-11deg to try and get things happening a bit better. 

On a slightly seperate topic, re diacetyl rests, I always thought they were only required if pitching warm and then chilling to lager temps once the yeast had fired (because it was in this stage that the diacetyl was produced). But I have seen a lot of people recommend diacetyl rests even when pitching at lager temps. In this case, where there is a problem like acetaldehyde that needs to be fixed, I can see the need for a rest at higher temps to get the yeast to eat up all the nasties. But if you pitch at the required rate at lager temps, is a diacetyl rest technically necessary?


----------



## Fourstar (17/8/09)

AFAIK, its best practice to always finish fermentation with a ramp up to clear up any precursors. 

Regardless of your fermentation control, you cant be sure that the correct amount of yeast are in suspension and are capable/willing to clean up any precursors at their fermentation temp. There is no detrimental effect on your beer by knocking off the last 2~ SG points @ anywhere up to 20deg when brewing lagers as any major ester production is done at the start of fermentation (which is why most recommend pitching at lower temps then ramping, not the reverse). I usually ramp mine up to ambient by simply pulling it from the fridge and leaving at ambient for 2-3 days, i check the FG and taste test. If everything is 'sound' its a 48 hour crash chill, keg, carb and lager.

I also follow the same process with my ales by simply whacking a heat belt on for 24 hours and hold @ 2-3deg higher than fermentation temp.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (17/8/09)

T.D. said:


> I doubt it was overpitched, it took 4 weeks to get from 1.047 to 1.015. And as I recall there wasn't a huge amount of slurry in the bottom of the fermenter after the Farmland starter had gone through. So I am banking on an underpitching issue. Hopefully that is rectified for the Boh Pils. I am also fermenting this one at 10-11deg to try and get things happening a bit better.
> 
> On a slightly seperate topic, re diacetyl rests, I always thought they were only required if pitching warm and then chilling to lager temps once the yeast had fired (because it was in this stage that the diacetyl was produced). But I have seen a lot of people recommend diacetyl rests even when pitching at lager temps. In this case, where there is a problem like acetaldehyde that needs to be fixed, I can see the need for a rest at higher temps to get the yeast to eat up all the nasties. But if you pitch at the required rate at lager temps, is a diacetyl rest technically necessary?


Diacetyl is part of the process of fermentation, Some yeast are prone to producing more diacetyl and not being able to clean it up at the end of fermentation.Removing beer off the yeast to early compounds this fault.There fore you raise temp near the end in the hope that these faults will be re absobed by the yeasts. I always use a Diacetyl rest , both for lager and Ales.I dont like the smell or taste.
Gb


----------



## phonos (17/8/09)

Recently I made an experimental beer to try out the rice malt extract that coles sells. This was fermented using wyeast 2007 (pilsen lager yeast). I used an old slurry I found in the fridge, which means that I definitely underpitched and the yeast was not particularly viable. The resulting beer has such a strong acetaldehyde flavour that I occasionally drink it as a cider... 

I made this in may/june and haven't had one for about a month. I'll have one tonight and let you know if the green apple flavour has dissipated.


----------



## petesbrew (17/8/09)

I got that green apple flavour from my WLP800 culture about this time last year. It was also (I'm pretty sure) the culprit in a big bottle bomb incident last summer.


----------



## T.D. (17/8/09)

Cripes, this is quickly starting to look like a common attribute of the WLP800/Wy2007 strain!

Thanks for your comments guys. Phonos, I'd be very interested in hearing whether the apple flavour in your beer has subsided over time. 

Maybe I should have gone the trusty old W34/70!!


----------



## DJR (17/8/09)

I had some noticeable ethanal (i hate the Americanised version Acetaldehyde, the IUPAC name is Ethanal as opposed to Ethanol or Ethanoic Acid) in a WLP833 Helles the other day, it was really just green apples. No diacetyl, a day of 17C sorted that, but I was a bit worried about it. At lager temps yeast is really bad at getting rid of it. It will disappear faster if you let the beer sit warmer - mine was at about 8-10C and was gone in about a week. Almost like an "ethanal rest". I had some issues with Budvar WLP802 yeast a while ago where it made a lot of ethanal and i tipped quite a lot of bottles down the sink after lagering at 2C didn't get rid of it in 2 months. I reckon just raise the temp when it happens. It's not like it's going to hurt the beer too much once it's fermented anyway.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/8/09)

One thing I forgot to mention is the lack of dissolved oxygen (DO) prior to pitching.The lack of DO causes pyruvic acid , fatty acids and your amino acids to be converted to aldehydes.Lack of DO causes the yeast to absorb sterols from the trub (to build its cells walls ready for growth/fermentation) this results in the yeast excreting staling compounds which can be converted to acetaldehyde. So what we though may have been under pitching was probably was in a way, but a result of the lack of growth from the yeast due to O2 starvation.It appears that this strain of yeast require a substantial amount of O2 to get them growing.TD did you oxygenate really well. I am really interested to see if this is the cause. I may have found the answer?
GB


----------



## phonos (18/8/09)

T.D. said:


> Cripes, this is quickly starting to look like a common attribute of the WLP800/Wy2007 strain!
> 
> Thanks for your comments guys. Phonos, I'd be very interested in hearing whether the apple flavour in your beer has subsided over time.
> 
> Maybe I should have gone the trusty old W34/70!!




I tried another bottle last night. The last time I tried it was probably 3 weeks ago (I bottled it in june). From memory, I think the apple flavour has diminished slightly, but not very much. It started out tasting exactly like fermented just juice, but now I can notice a slight beer flavour to it. I'll try one again in another month and see if it further diminishes.

Does anyone know if there is any danger in dinking small amounts of acetaldehyde (Ethanal for DJR!)?


----------



## T.D. (18/8/09)

Thanks GB, that's an interesting perspective on the issue. I oxygenated the same way I always do - by dumping a cube full of wort into the bottom of the fermenter! Not sure if that is sufficient but I am not sure how I would get much more oxygen into it short of using an air stone or something (which I am not a fan of).

Lagers are the exception rather than the rule in my brewing - I primarily brew ales. So I am the first to admit I don't understand their requirements as well as maybe I should - perhaps they require more oxygenation that what I am doing. Or maybe the yeast cell count from the farmland kit starter wasn't high enough to eat up all the dodgies.

I will persevere a bit more with the boh pils which is in the fermenter now. Sounds like people have had some success with raising temps at the end. One question though, when is best to raise the temp? Is 1.015 ok or should it be more like 1.020?

Thanks.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/8/09)

T.D. said:


> Thanks GB, that's an interesting perspective on the issue. I oxygenated the same way I always do - by dumping a cube full of wort into the bottom of the fermenter! Not sure if that is sufficient but I am not sure how I would get much more oxygen into it short of using an air stone or something (which I am not a fan of).
> 
> Lagers are the exception rather than the rule in my brewing - I primarily brew ales. So I am the first to admit I don't understand their requirements as well as maybe I should - perhaps they require more oxygenation that what I am doing. Or maybe the yeast cell count from the farmland kit starter wasn't high enough to eat up all the dodgies.
> 
> ...


I have an aeration system which is inline (after my glycol chiller) when I transfer to the fermenter.Some times I dont get enough DO because the head starts crawling out the top of the fermenter and I have to stop.. I start to temp ramp at 1020 (season dependant) if I expect the FG to be around 1014, I use the exothermic nature of the yeast to generated the required rise, if I miss my mark I bring out the brew belt and warm it up .
GB


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/8/09)

Phonos said:


> I tried another bottle last night. The last time I tried it was probably 3 weeks ago (I bottled it in june). From memory, I think the apple flavour has diminished slightly, but not very much. It started out tasting exactly like fermented just juice, but now I can notice a slight beer flavour to it. I'll try one again in another month and see if it further diminishes.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is any danger in dinking small amounts of acetaldehyde (Ethanal for DJR!)?


If my memory is correct your body converts ethanol to ethanal, ethanal is what gives you the hangover.Acetadehyde from a quick search, in small amounts doesnt appear to be a big risk.
Gb


----------



## T.D. (18/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> If my memory is correct your body converts ethanol to ethanal, ethanal is what gives you the hangover.Acetadehyde from a quick search, in small amounts doesnt appear to be a big risk.
> Gb



So poor old phonos has just made some hangover bombs? Good to keep in the fridge for when a "mate" drops in unannounced for a beer huh???  

Good to hear the acetaldehyde (ethanal) seems to be dissipating in the bottle with age. Phonos, did you do a diacetyle rest on that beer?


----------



## DJR (18/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> If my memory is correct your body converts ethanol to ethanal, ethanal is what gives you the hangover.Acetadehyde from a quick search, in small amounts doesnt appear to be a big risk.
> Gb



Yes, small amounts isn't that bad, you'll probably just fall asleep before you can get too much into your body. There is a genetic abnormality particularly in Northern Chinese that causes a lack of a key enzyme to process alcohol into aldehyde - if afflicted, one drink pretty much knocks you out.

The enzyme (alcohol dehydrogenase) appears to be the same one that yeast uses to convert ethanal to ethanol. There is a whole bucketload of stuff on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_dehydrogenase



> Steps
> 
> 1. Binding of the coenzyme NAD+;
> 2. Binding of the alcohol substrate by coordination to zinc;
> ...



The article also talks about the different genome subtypes of ADH in brewer's yeast which are ADH2 and ADH1. ADH2 is a brewers yeast specialty that can convert ethanol into ethanal so it can use it to feed, ADH1 is the opposite in that it can convert ethanal to ethanol. Thankfully ADH2 only kicks in when sugar concentrations are low and oxygen is high - so if you don't introduce oxygen at the end of the process and drink your bottle conditioned beer in a reasonable time all is well.


----------



## phonos (18/8/09)

T.D. said:


> So poor old phonos has just made some hangover bombs? Good to keep in the fridge for when a "mate" drops in unannounced for a beer huh???
> 
> Good to hear the acetaldehyde (ethanal) seems to be dissipating in the bottle with age. Phonos, did you do a diacetyle rest on that beer?



I don't have notes for this beer, but I generally do a diacetyl rest. However, I tend not to do it as early as Gryphon Brewing suggests, I generally wait til there is only a few expected gravity points to go. From memory I fermented this one a little warmer because there was a long lag time, so I'm not totally convinced that a diacetyl rest would have made a lot of difference to the aceetaldehyde levels in this case.

I didn't experience a hangover this morning, despite having 500ml of the "apple beer" (and about 5 standard drinks afterwards), but perhaps testing on other specimens is a good idea for scientific purposes...


----------

