# Crown Lager Clone



## Crusty (31/12/09)

Hi all,
Happy new year to everyone.
I did a search but failed to get what I am looking for. Can somebody point me in the right direction for an All Grain Crown Lager Clone using Beersmith. Quite like the Crownies & I reckon an All Grain Clone would be a cracker.

Crusty


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## chappo1970 (31/12/09)

Try this one out. It's a house beer here and the usual TED/NEW drinkers like it as a crown clone.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=737

Maybe sub the rice for sugaz to dry it out more like a crownie?

Cheers

Chappo


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## therook (31/12/09)

Chappo said:


> Try this one out. It's a house beer here and the usual TED/NEW drinkers like it as a crown clone.
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=737
> 
> ...




Chappo,

I wouldn't have thought there would be any late hop additions in a Crownie?

Rook


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## chappo1970 (31/12/09)

therook said:


> Chappo,
> 
> I wouldn't have thought there would be any late hop additions in a Crownie?
> 
> Rook



Your right Rookster. Buts I needs me flavours or whats tha point HBing?  .


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## Bribie G (31/12/09)

Another brilliant malt to use is Barret Burston Galaxy. For a 'normal' 23L brew I'd go 4kg Galaxy, 500 rice cooked to a mush and 500 white sugar in the fermenter. 

A great yeast to use in Aussie Standards (thanks to Tidal Pete) is Wyeast Danish Lager 2042 which I see is OOS at Ross's at the moment. I read somewhere that Fosters may have got their yeast from Carlsberg originally. However I have been getting good results with dried lager yeast s-189 which ferments out happily at around 15 degrees. However give it a good long primary as it chucks a _lot_ of sulphur at those temps.


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## tipsy (31/12/09)

I make a CUB style for my mates

4.5kg JW pils
30-40g Roast barley for colour
300g Sugar

Bittered to around 22 IBU's with POR

Last one I used s-189 yeast

My mates say they like it better than CUB stuff but they could be saying that for the free beer. <_<


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## dr K (31/12/09)

Galaxy would be my pick
I have known some very very good brewers whose 18-20 year children say ..hey dad can you make a beer for my birthday, just like a Heineken please!!
The answer seems to be do as the big boys do, brew high gravity and dilute.
Make say 20 litres at 1058, add some yeast nutrient, ferment out and dilute to 24 litres.

K


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## bradsbrew (31/12/09)

dr K said:


> Galaxy would be my pick
> I have known some very very good brewers whose 18-20 year children say ..hey dad can you make a beer for my birthday, just like a Heineken please!!
> The answer seems to be do as the big boys do, brew high gravity and dilute.
> Make say 20 litres at 1058, add some yeast nutrient, ferment out and dilute to 24 litres.
> ...



Is that dilute before or after ferment?

Brad


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## MCT (31/12/09)

I'd say before, the high gravity will stress the yeast a bit.


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## dr K (31/12/09)

sorry, not so clear..after ferment, which is why some nutrient is pretty important (though not compulsory).
remember you are looking for a beer with clean flavor profile so the hops are predominately bittering,i would something like northern brewer to about 22IBU (at 1058), maybe for a bit of fum some galaxy or amarillo at flame-out/whirlpool.
hg brewing allows a greater qty of beer with a smaller volume of kettle/fermentors (particularly fermentors, your tun is used for say 3 hrs a brew, same with your kettle, your fermentor 50+ hours)

K


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## Ross (31/12/09)

BribieG said:


> Another brilliant malt to use is Barret Burston Galaxy. For a 'normal' 23L brew I'd go 4kg Galaxy, 500 rice cooked to a mush and 500 white sugar in the fermenter.
> 
> A great yeast to use in Aussie Standards (thanks to Tidal Pete) is Wyeast Danish Lager 2042 which I see is OOS at Ross's at the moment. I read somewhere that Fosters may have got their yeast from Carlsberg originally. However I have been getting good results with dried lager yeast s-189 which ferments out happily at around 15 degrees. However give it a good long primary as it chucks a _lot_ of sulphur at those temps.



Fresh stock arrived & on online Bribie  

Cheers Ross


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## Thirsty Boy (1/1/10)

dr K said:


> sorry, not so clear..after ferment, which is why some nutrient is pretty important (though not compulsory).
> remember you are looking for a beer with clean flavor profile so the hops are predominately bittering,i would something like northern brewer to about 22IBU (at 1058), maybe for a bit of fum some galaxy or amarillo at flame-out/whirlpool.
> hg brewing allows a greater qty of beer with a smaller volume of kettle/fermentors (particularly fermentors, your tun is used for say 3 hrs a brew, same with your kettle, your fermentor 50+ hours)
> 
> K



Dr K is on the money - dilute _after_ ferment, aim for a dilution ratio of about 1.3, so just a little less than K suggested. For Crown, bitter with POR at the start of boil only, 20ish IBUs

Use BB malt, galaxy would be a fine choice. But - the genuine article is brewed with about 20% of its fermentables from cane sugar. If you go all malt, the beer is almost bound to be overly malty for a crown lager.

For a quite authentic "Carlton" flavour profile, I have used Wyeast 2124 at higher temperatures and had it work. Pitch at something nice and normal for a lager, say 11 degrees or so, hold it there till its been actively fermenting for about a day, then let it free rise up to 17-18C and hold it there till its done.

It might be too much of a pain for you.. but if you can, de-aerate your dilution water. Boil it, transfer it into a corny keg still boiling hot and purge teh keg with co2. Let it cool in an oxygen free environment, fizz it up a little when its cool and it will help to keep it oxygen free during transfers. This will both sanitise your dilution water and stop it from introducing oxygen to your brew, which will help the shelf life a lot.

If was looking for Crown Lager (and God help me if I ever am) thats what I would do

Thirsty


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## Ross (1/1/10)

Great tips Thirsty :icon_chickcheers: 

Wonder why I'm not getting excited though  

Cheers Ross


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## kirem (1/1/10)

Like many I suppose, I get similar requests; 'can you brew me a keg full of 'crown lager' for my birthday party?'

So these tips are great, thanks thirsty.

I don't force the big flavour beers I brew down my mates throats, but they are my mates so I am more than happy to brew something they like to drink. It's their choice what they drink.

OT, so any tips for BUL Stella Artois? that is other beer I get asked to brew alot.


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## Bribie G (1/1/10)

Ross said:


> Fresh stock arrived & on online Bribie
> 
> Cheers Ross



Hmm 2124 - Also in the Carlsberg family. I'm thinking here more about my Bulimba draught / Gold Top project here. Would just white sugar be ok or should I invert it / slightly caramelise it etc?


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## scott_penno (1/1/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> It might be too much of a pain for you.. but if you can, de-aerate your dilution water. Boil it, transfer it into a corny keg still boiling hot and purge teh keg with co2. Let it cool in an oxygen free environment, fizz it up a little when its cool and it will help to keep it oxygen free during transfers. This will both sanitise your dilution water and stop it from introducing oxygen to your brew, which will help the shelf life a lot.




Thirsty,

If you didn't have kegs and CO2 on hand, could you just use a couple of bottles of soda water for dilution? This is likely to be sterile, carbonated and be low/free of oxygen - correct?

sap.


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## Bribie G (1/1/10)

sappas said:


> Thirsty,
> 
> If you didn't have kegs and CO2 on hand, could you just use a couple of bottles of soda water for dilution? This is likely to be sterile, carbonated and be low/free of oxygen - correct?
> 
> sap.



I use ALDI sparkling spring water, it's cheap, it's low in dissolved sodium etc (I guess soda water has more salts in it) and the bottles come in handy for filling from keg to take places. I use the stuff all the time for a source of sterile deoxygenated water for mixing up Polyclar, finings etc etc, and for topping up of course. Also after primary, a bottle of the sparkling into the fermenter and swished around gives you a nice runny 'yeast cream' that you can pour back into the bottle immediately, fridge, and keep for next brew. It stores perfectly for a week or so.


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## davewaldo (1/1/10)

Hi Bribie, thats interesting about the use of sparkling mineral water. 

Do we know though that it is in fact low in oxygen? I would imagine that in the factory they would just be carbonating cool springwater which would still have normal O2 levels. So although its got a lot of CO2 in it wouldn't the O2 levels be the same as normal water?

Dave


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## crundle (1/1/10)

I have been getting great results using 4kg Galaxy malt and 1kg rice, mash at 66, using POR @60 minutes to about 13 IBU and POR @20 minutes to about 2 IBU. Ferment using US-05 @ 18 degrees and the thing is fermented out in less than a week.

An easy drinker and has been compared to Crownies by some. I just like that I have finally found a drink that my family will drink happily without complaining about it having too much flavour!

Crundle


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## Jazzafish (1/1/10)

I know VB is 18 IBU's after testing it in a brewery Lab, so I reckon crown is around this mark too, or closer to 20 IBU's. Just a single addition of Pride of Ringwood for a 60min boil will get you close in the home environment.

For fermentables give this a go:
90% Pilsner Malt
10% Cane Sugar

Mash it around 64 to 65*C to help it dry out. Aim for a starting gravity of ~1.046

With the yeast, go a lager yeast fermented on the warm side ~14 to 16*C. When fermentation is finished, add finnings and crash chill.


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## BjornJ (1/1/10)

Hi guys,
this is a really interesting thread!

I like the look of Chappo's Aussie Lager, sounds like something to try at some stage.
I tried something similar by using flaked rice, base malt and Pride of Ringwood with San Francico Lager yeast but it turned out a bit thin and bland after trying the first bottle 2 weeks after bottling.

For the Crown Lager, are we aiming for less than 20 IBU? No late hop additions? Sugars to get FG down? Why the high temperature for a Lager yeast and what is the benefit of brewing high gravity and diluting after fermentation is finished, does this change the flavor compared to fermenting at lower gravity?

Have read quite a few threads about making Aussie lagers and very interested in any more help after my first rice lager try  

thanks
BjornJ


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## Thirsty Boy (1/1/10)

kirem said:


> OT, so any tips for BUL Stella Artois? that is other beer I get asked to brew alot.



Less of them - its basically a pilsner. For the BUL version - which is capable of being really nice when its good and fresh and new seasons hops are in - Bitter with POR, Saaz to finish. Cant really help with the yeast but its not a stock Fosters strain - something used especially for the Stella. Fermented at genuine lager temps (OK a bit higher than a homebrewer would do it but still low) and at high gravity again. It doesn't use cane sugar, but does have a glucose syrup addition as an adjunct... one tailored to give us the attenuation profile we want, so not something you could buy at the LHBS or the supermarket.

Pretty much a Continental Light lager with a decent whack of Saaz is going to give you something close enough.



BribieG said:


> Hmm 2124 - Also in the Carlsberg family. I'm thinking here more about my Bulimba draught / Gold Top project here. Would just white sugar be ok or should I invert it / slightly caramelise it etc?



Just table sugar will be fine



sappas said:


> Thirsty,
> 
> If you didn't have kegs and CO2 on hand, could you just use a couple of bottles of soda water for dilution? This is likely to be sterile, carbonated and be low/free of oxygen - correct?
> 
> sap.



mmm - maybe. Some soda waters have mineral salts added to them to make them taste like.. well, soda. You wouldn't want that, otherwise you are probably right, I don't know if they would be de-oxygenated.. but I reckon it would be better than out of the tap.

Oxygen is the biggest real problem with post fermentation dilution... maybe not so bad if you are re-fermenting in bottles though.



> *Bjorn*
> For the Crown Lager, are we aiming for less than 20 IBU? No late hop additions? Sugars to get FG down? Why the high temperature for a Lager yeast and what is the benefit of brewing high gravity and diluting after fermentation is finished, does this change the flavor compared to fermenting at lower gravity?



About 20 IBU - Yes. No late hop additions - Yes. Sugars to get the FG down - partially, but mainly to lighten the body of the beer and make it less malty; and to emulate what happens when actual Crown lager is made. Lager Yeast at high temperatures - attempt to emulate the flavour profile of the original. High gravity brewing and post fermentation dilution - attempt to emulate the flavour profile of the original.

Absolutely brewing and fermenting at high gravity will give different flavours than doing it at sales strength. Better?? Worse?? maybe, who knows?? But different yes.

My tips here aren't about brewing a tasty Aussie lager - they are how I would go about trying to emulate Crown Lager if I tried to brew a clone at home.

TB


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## Bribie G (2/1/10)

davewaldo said:


> Hi Bribie, thats interesting about the use of sparkling mineral water.
> 
> Do we know though that it is in fact low in oxygen? I would imagine that in the factory they would just be carbonating cool springwater which would still have normal O2 levels. So although its got a lot of CO2 in it wouldn't the O2 levels be the same as normal water?
> 
> Dave



You'd have to ask a real chemist, but from what I remember from high school chemistry and 'partition coefficients' then saturating a solution with one gas tends to drive out nearly all the other gases. I understand - for example - that bubbling CO2 through a keg and venting it off is a good way of driving off hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg gas) from lagers that have been kegged too soon.


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## DKS (2/1/10)

BribieG said:


> You'd have to ask a real chemist, but from what I remember from high school chemistry and 'partition coefficients' then saturating a solution with one gas tends to drive out nearly all the other gases. I understand - for example - that bubbling CO2 through a keg and venting it off is a good way of driving off hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg gas) from lagers that have been kegged too soon.



Interesting, I hope you're right Bribie. Ill have to give this a go and report back. Hopefully gas and purge, regularly may help.
I have an Aussie lager that's a bit stinky, more so like vomit smell to me rather than rotten egg. Taste is fine but sticking your nose in the 1st glass is not so nice.
Fermented 10-12* and in keg for 6 weeks. I didn't rush ferment, all readings were as per Beersmith to 1pt either way. Ill see how she goes.Thanks for the tip. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## BjornJ (2/1/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> About 20 IBU - Yes. No late hop additions - Yes. Sugars to get the FG down - partially, but mainly to lighten the body of the beer and make it less malty; and to emulate what happens when actual Crown lager is made. Lager Yeast at high temperatures - attempt to emulate the flavour profile of the original. High gravity brewing and post fermentation dilution - attempt to emulate the flavour profile of the original.
> 
> Absolutely brewing and fermenting at high gravity will give different flavours than doing it at sales strength. Better?? Worse?? maybe, who knows?? But different yes.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply, interesting to learn more about how the proper breweries do it,

thanks
Bjorn


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## Jazzafish (3/1/10)

To get the oxygen out of water at the brewery we simply pumped CO2 through it. After some time we ran the water through a meter that told us exactly how much disolved oxygen was present and used this info to decide when it was safe to dilute. 

That said, all brews were mashed high gravity, but diluted in the kettle before pumping into the fermenter. It is cheaper, easier and more importantly safer to dilute at this point in the process. Post fermentation diluting was only done to fix a rare problem. EG: A beer not getting the spec'd attenuation.

Have also considered using carbonated water to dilute home brew considering, but never had the need to. I'm not all that bothered if my beer stops at 1.012 instead of 1.010, as long as it tastes good I'm happy. Be interested in how much DO is in a bottle of carbonated water, guess it is safe


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## WarmBeer (3/1/10)

Crusty said:


> Can somebody point me in the right direction for an All Grain Crown Lager Clone...


1. Brew an All Grain Foster's Lager Clone
2. Put it in a fancy bottle and charge double for it

Boom, tish. Try the veal


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## Thirsty Boy (5/1/10)

Jazzafish said:


> To get the oxygen out of water at the brewery we simply pumped CO2 through it. After some time we ran the water through a meter that told us exactly how much disolved oxygen was present and used this info to decide when it was safe to dilute.
> 
> That said, all brews were mashed high gravity, but diluted in the kettle before pumping into the fermenter. It is cheaper, easier and more importantly safer to dilute at this point in the process. Post fermentation diluting was only done to fix a rare problem. EG: A beer not getting the spec'd attenuation.
> 
> Have also considered using carbonated water to dilute home brew considering, but never had the need to. I'm not all that bothered if my beer stops at 1.012 instead of 1.010, as long as it tastes good I'm happy. Be interested in how much DO is in a bottle of carbonated water, guess it is safe



Yeah, you have to be shedloads more fussy about the DO levels when you are adding post fermentation cut water - especially if you are talking filtered and force carbed beer. Just bubbling C02 through works mostly but if I was adding post ferm liquor I would boil first as well as doing the C02 thing. Belts and braces don't you know - unless I had some palladium and a source of pure hydrogen floating about...

My question with carbonated water would be -- did they remove the oxygen (why would they) or did they just force in lots of C02?? The C02 only works to remove the oxygen if it is sparge through and vented.. not just whacked on as top pressure.

Still, it would fizz up, release C02 and maybe help to sheild/sparge out some 02 when you were pouring it in... maybe.

Post ferm dilution is the most efficient way to use brewery tank resources... I generally wouldn't bother with HG brewing of any description at home, let alone post fermentation dilution - but thats the way its done at Fosters if you really want to try and hit that Carlton flavour. I'd try without first and see if you think you need it.

TB


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## RdeVjun (5/1/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I generally wouldn't bother with HG brewing of any description at home, let alone post fermentation dilution - but thats the way its done at Fosters if you really want to try and hit that Carlton flavour. I'd try without first and see if you think you need it.


+1
Having done a few post- ferment dilutions, I'd say for pure shits & giggles factor, it is maybe worth an experimental dab at it but that's really about all. There's no magical flavour enhancement to be gained or anything like that, just a slightly different beer and more of it in one batch than you've handled previously, but perhaps with a shorter shelf life. Unless you have some particular and inescapable volume limitations, I'd say the fartarsing around and slight to moderate risks of ruination are just not worth it. Home brewing doesn't have to be that complex though- we know it works just fine on the regular scale!

One up side to it is that, if you bottle, invariably you end up with a few tubes of the undiluted strong ale variant/ anaesthetic which tastes pretty awesome but it just quietly knocks your socks off. I had just the one last night and it nearly put me to sleep!  

My 2c... :icon_cheers:


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