# Dry Beer Enzyme



## albrews

hi,
does anyone have experience using dry beer enzyme. (e.g. brewcraft brand) and what final gravity reduction might i expect by using it. note dryness in winemaking implies final gravity around 1.000 .
any help or comments would be appreciated.

cheers alan


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## Guest Lurker

The few times I used it the beer came down to around 0.995 and tasted pretty foul.


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## albrews

Guest Lurker said:


> The few times I used it the beer came down to around 0.995 and tasted pretty foul.




hi , thanks for your experience , and i wonder if sorbate can be used as in winemaking to halt the yeast

action or heating to kill the yeast, so as to design a particular final gravity. say 1.003 for example. 

cheers alan


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## Kai

It can use sorbate, but if you're bottling then you won't get any fizz. If you heat it then you could add more yeast after, but you'll get a fair bit of flavour loss and a lot of dicking around. Dry enzyme is not worth the packet it comes in, in the experience of most home brewers.


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## Finite

Guest Lurker said:


> The few times I used it the beer came down to around 0.995.


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## maltedhopalong

Guest Lurker said:


> The few times I used it the beer came down to around 0.995 and tasted pretty foul.



Is this the general consensus???

Cos I've just had a look back at the beers i've made that were done using a dry enzyme and they're the ones that just came out totally wrong.

Do you guys find the dry enzyme gives a filthy taste? kinda tastes like the hops are just foul.


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## turto77

maltedhopalong said:


> Is this the general consensus???
> 
> Cos I've just had a look back at the beers i've made that were done using a dry enzyme and they're the ones that just came out totally wrong.
> 
> Do you guys find the dry enzyme gives a filthy taste? kinda tastes like the hops are just foul.




I did a k&k lager a while back with dry enzyme and it turned out like crap.

Never again. :angry:


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## maltedhopalong

Yeah, i guess i should do two batches one with dry enzyme and one without, but it's so hard to make a beer you are hoping will turn out bad...


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## rustie

albrews said:


> hi,
> does anyone have experience using dry beer enzyme. (e.g. brewcraft brand) and what final gravity reduction might i expect by using it. note dryness in winemaking implies final gravity around 1.000 .
> any help or comments would be appreciated.
> 
> cheers alan


I used it once & didn't like the result. Was a Lager 7 it had a strang taste.
Cheers rustie


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## Adamt

Dry enzyme effectively breaks up products in the beer that would normally contribute to body, residual sweetness, etc. so that the yeast can eat it. So, any bad taste that shouldnt be in the beer will be amplified and this is why I think it is silly to use for K&K brews. A lot of the megaswill companies use it in beers like TED, Pure Blonde, etc, which are bland and tasteless. These beers are very hard to replicate without fresh ingredients (or AG), iso-hop extract and some would say, cat piss.

The "foul hops" taste could be the infamous "metallic twang" taste that old malt extract yields. If you haven't liked brews using it in the past, don't use it again. Sure you can do it as an experiment, but do 2 small batches (5L or so).


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## maltedhopalong

coopers mexican cerveza came out with no "twang" and i didn't use any dry enzyme. i think the taste i've been trying to get out of my beers is coming from the dry enzyme. like you say, probably amplifying the "home brew" taste of the kit.


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## FazerPete

Why do people want to get their beer to have an FG of 1 or lower? If you want that then tip a bottle of vodka in some water with hop pellets in it.  

It's the unfermented stuff that gives beer a lot of it's flavour. Using a dry enzyme to completely ferment everything is going to remove all of that flavour so that all you are left with is yellow, hoppy water with no malt flavours to balance the flavour.


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## maltedhopalong

Pete, you are confused. nobody wants yellow hoppy water. some ppl want a full beer taste, but for it to finish crisply. So given the fact that you're not helping and just acting like a wannabe connoisseur, why don't you keep it to yourself? Alternatively, ADD something.


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## SJW

> Pete, you are confused. nobody wants yellow hoppy water.


So why is Corona such a big seller? <_<


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## maltedhopalong

I always order Coronas when i'm on business meetings etc. the reason? I KNOW it's going to be inoffensive, and if I feel like a "Beer" it'll do the job. but unless you really are craving after a super-hoppy, chocolate brown syrup, style dark ale, it'll make you throw up (the super-hoppy beer, i'm talking about, not the corona).

That's why it's a big seller. Beer makers don't make yellow-hoppy water. Some of my homebrews have actually been yellow-hoppy water and it annoyed me.

Who gives a flying duck if people like a beer that's less powerful than the kind of beer you like? Your doing nothing but turn people away. I love this site cos you guys are great at answering all my questions and it's sucha reliable source of information. But I don't know how much more of the elitism i can take.


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## Hutch

maltedhopalong said:


> Your doing nothing but turn people away. I love this site cos you guys are great at answering all my questions and it's sucha reliable source of information. But I don't know how much more of the elitism i can take.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a BREWING site, not a piss-weak commercial mega-swill appreciation society.

Feel free to drink all the Corona you like, but for f*** sake, don't shoot down someone like FazerPete for expressing a valid opion on the topic of discussion, that is shared by the majority here.


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## Adamt

> Is this the general consensus???
> 
> Cos I've just had a look back at the beers i've made that were done using a dry enzyme and they're the ones that just came out totally wrong.
> 
> Do you guys find the dry enzyme gives a filthy taste? kinda tastes like the hops are just foul.




You've asked a bunch of hardcore brewers for their opinion. We've given it. It seems the general consensus is that it is not liked for homebrew purposes, and we find dry enzyme robs beer of most of the taste. This isn't a bloody flame war.


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## FazerPete

maltedhopalong said:


> Pete, you are confused. nobody wants yellow hoppy water. some ppl want a full beer taste, but for it to finish crisply. So given the fact that you're not helping and just acting like a wannabe connoisseur, why don't you keep it to yourself? Alternatively, ADD something.


So why don't you answer my question? What is it that you are trying to achieve by getting the FG that low? 

All I was saying is that by using a dry enzyme, you will remove most of the taste from your beer. I've tried it a couple of times and the beer comes out completely tasteless. If you want to make a TED or Corona copy then go for your life but IMO there's no point in doing this when you can easily make so much more.

BTW, who died and made you the forum police? :angry: If you read my post you will see that I tried to explain that it's the unfermented sugars in the malt that give a beer much of it's taste. By converting these to fermentable matter, the beer must have less malt flavour which only leaves the hop flavour behind. Simple flavour formula really: (Malt + Hops + Water + Yeast) - Malt = (Hops + Water + Yeast)

If you don't agree with this, then why don't you ADD something and explain how else it works.


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## maltedhopalong

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, also i'm not the person who spoke about getting FG below 1. I know how dry enzyme works, generally when I use it i prime (EDIT: not prime, i mean instead of dex/brew enhancher i use...) with corn syrup and/or a can of unhopped malt, the idea being that it actually tastes "dry". (EDIT: i.e. when my "dry" beer finishes it's still up around 1015 or something)

And i'm not trying to be some kind of forum policeman either, I apologise if I've come across that way. I honestly just feel like i've voicing the opinion of the minority. And that minority says "why aren't we allowed to drink beer that imitates commercial varieties?"

To put things in perspective i asked if you guys have found that the dry enzyme not only ferments more "stuff" but also imparts a very non-beery taste. And the second response i got was shooting down anyone who uses it, telling us we don't know sh!t about beer (reading between the lines). There are nicer ways of saying it than saying "why would you want to brew yellow, hoppy water? you might as well drink cat piss"


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## FazerPete

maltedhopalong said:


> To put things in perspective i asked if you guys have found that the dry enzyme not only ferments more "stuff" but also imparts a very non-beery taste. And the second response i got was shooting down anyone who uses it, telling us we don't know sh!t about beer (reading between the lines). There are nicer ways of saying it than saying "why would you want to brew yellow, hoppy water? you might as well drink cat piss"


Don't take everything so personally (I'm not, even though you started the flame). All I said is that you are going to be left with relatively tasteless beer and I don't think you'll find any brewer who will disagree.

I'm not criticising your aim to recreate a commercial beer but as you are a frequent member of this site and apparently an avid brewer, it's very strange that you would want to do it. This forum is focused on helping people make a better beer than anything they can buy and I think if you could start to appreciate some extra flavour in your beers then you'll enjoy the hobby more.


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## maltedhopalong

FazerPete said:


> Don't take everything so personally (I'm not, even though you started the flame). All I said is that you are going to be left with relatively tasteless beer and I don't think you'll find any brewer who will disagree.
> 
> I'm not criticising your aim to recreate a commercial beer but as you are a frequent member of this site and apparently an avid brewer, it's very strange that you would want to do it. This forum is focused on helping people make a better beer than anything they can buy and I think if you could start to appreciate some extra flavour in your beers then you'll enjoy the hobby more.



I'm sorry for taking it personally, but as I said I do think there are other ways of saying it. And yeah, it may seem strange that i would want to drink a "lawnmower" beer, but i do and i just get so sick and tired of being criticised for it.


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## maltedhopalong

I really shouldn't have bothered, but if other people have isolated the dry enzyme as adding some really strange tastes to their beer, maybe pm me or something. Note to hardcore uber-hardcore brewers, i'm not discussing the difference between dry and non-dry beer, but rather the enzyme itself and the TASTE it imparts (besides dryness).


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## FazerPete

maltedhopalong said:


> I'm sorry for taking it personally, but as I said I do think there are other ways of saying it. And yeah, it may seem strange that i would want to drink a "lawnmower" beer, but i do and i just get so sick and tired of being criticised for it.


Sorry if my first post caused offence, it was meant to be fairly tongue in cheek.

I'm the first to defend people's right to have different tastes and I don't mind a very cold lighter beer on a hot day, but have you tried other beer styles to see if there's something else out there that you might like to make? With the colder weather here now, some of the low hop / high malt english ales are very tasty. :chug: 

My trouble is I like everything!


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## maltedhopalong

FazerPete said:


> Sorry if my first post caused offence, it was meant to be fairly tongue in cheek.
> 
> I'm the first to defend people's right to have different tastes and I don't mind a very cold lighter beer on a hot day, but have you tried other beer styles to see if there's something else out there that you might like to make? With the colder weather here now, some of the low hop / high malt english ales are very tasty. :chug:
> 
> My trouble is I like everything!



Yeah, i really appreciate strong malty beers, but i have VERY fickle taste buds when it comes to hops, there are a lot of different hops tastes that make a beer unpleasant to me, hence half the time I drink low hopped beers which are often the lighter ones (read: cat piss)


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## pint of lager

Time to do your very own experiment.

Buy a dry lager brew, make it up and divide it eqally between two fermenters. Pitch half the yeast into each fermenter. Pitch the dry enzyme into only one fermenter. Brew under exactly the same conditions and report back. Adam's suggestion of 5 litres is good, but by splitting it you have a bigger sample to work with.

Repeat the experiment as your brewing and beer tasting knowledge expands.

The few times I have resorted to dry enzyme to help a solidly stuck ferment, the brews have not been good quality.

Hop flavour is best with nice fresh hops. Make sure your HBS has fresh hops and stores them correctly. Or check out Ross's range. Old hops, or misusing hops varieties can be nasty.



> I know how dry enzyme works, generally when I use it i prime (EDIT: not prime, i mean instead of dex/brew enhancher i use...) with corn syrup and/or a can of unhopped malt, the idea being that it actually tastes "dry".



Corn syrup? This should never be used for priming. Being an Australian site, we try to avoid the American confusion with this product.

In Australia we call it maltodextrin (the yanks call it corn syrup)

The same with dextrose. To avoid confusion use the term dextrose rather than the yank terminology of corn sugar.


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## SJW

> Who gives a flying duck if people like a beer that's less powerful than the kind of beer you like? Your doing nothing but turn people away. I love this site cos you guys are great at answering all my questions and it's sucha reliable source of information. But I don't know how much more of the elitism i can take.



Pull ya head in maltedhopalong





> It's the unfermented stuff that gives beer a lot of it's flavour. Using a dry enzyme to completely ferment everything is going to remove all of that flavour so that all you are left with is yellow, hoppy water with no malt flavours to balance the flavour.



The fact is Fazerpete is 100% correct!


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## maltedhopalong

SJW said:


> Pull ya head in maltedhopalong




Yes sir. From today, no more commercially bought beer ever again for me and i'm headed down to the bank to take out a loan for an ag setup right now.

All you dopes who asked about dry enzyme, you're flamin' idiots! why don't you just drink cat piss???


[/sarcasm]


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## AUHEAMIC

Feel the Luv


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## SJW

> Yes sir. From today, no more commercially bought beer ever again for me and Im headed down to the bank to take out a loan for an ag setup right now.
> 
> All you dopes who asked about dry enzyme, you're flamin' idiots! why don't you just drink cat piss???



I think U just need to understand that this is a Homebrew web site. You should not expect much support for megswill beers no matter how much u like them. We all understand that these beers a light and inoffensive and taste great after mowing the grass on a 40+ day, but 99% of blokes on this site are trying to make a better HOME BREW.
Dont be such a tosser, I think poor ol Alan asked a very fair question in an environment where you would expect a lot of people to have had an experience with the stuff. Before u go calling Alan a DOPE and an IDIOT read his question. CLOWN!


> hi,
> Does anyone have experience using dry beer enzyme. (e.g. brewcraft brand) and what final gravity reduction might I expect by using it. note dryness in winemaking implies final gravity around 1.000 .
> any help or comments would be appreciated.
> 
> cheers alan


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## maltedhopalong

You're telling me to read people's questions??? I noticed you deleted the part where I said i was being sarcastic ([/sarcasm] means "end of sarcasm")

what i was saying is that YOU guys are the ones calling people idiots and dopes for wanting to use dry enzyme because as soon as u mention dry enzyme or some commercial clone, the inevitable response is: "why bother, tastes like cats piss, why don't you drink a real beer? blah blah blah"

anyway, sorry for what you guys have perceived as a flame, just wanted to say, if you don't like what someone's asking, please just think of a different way of telling that person they have no taste because that's just your opinion.


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## FazerPete

maltedhopalong said:


> Yeah, i really appreciate strong malty beers, but i have VERY fickle taste buds when it comes to hops, there are a lot of different hops tastes that make a beer unpleasant to me, hence half the time I drink low hopped beers which are often the lighter ones (read: cat piss)


I think you'll find that using a dry enzyme will accentuate the hop flavour so I don't think you should use it. What you want to do is add more malt and use a low attenuating yeast like Windsor to get a higher FG. More malt will balance the hop flavour.

I assume you're a K&K guy like me so have a go at a Morgans Amber Ale or Muntons Scottish Ale with no added hops and 1-1.5kg of malt and I reckon you'll have a high FG beer that is really good.


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## Stuster

Settle now. I think you got some good answers actually, maltedhopalong. Adam's answer was detailed, answered your question, and was not offensive that I can see. Pete certainly did not call you an idiot in his original post. If (to him) such beers do not taste good, I think he should be able to say what he likes about them. If you like them, go ahead and ask about them. Not everyone will be complimentary about the beers you like though, as you weren't about the kind of beers many on here prefer.



> but unless you really are craving after a super-hoppy, chocolate brown syrup, style dark ale, it'll make you throw up (the super-hoppy beer, i'm talking about, not the corona).



Anyway, hopefully we can get on with it and not worry too much about everyone else's taste buds.


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## maltedhopalong

FazerPete said:


> I think you'll find that using a dry enzyme will accentuate the hop flavour so I don't think you should use it. What you want to do is add more malt and use a low attenuating yeast like Windsor to get a higher FG. More malt will balance the hop flavour.
> 
> I assume you're a K&K guy like me so have a go at a Morgans Amber Ale or Muntons Scottish Ale with no added hops and 1-1.5kg of malt and I reckon you'll have a high FG beer that is really good.



Thanks for that, that actually was really helpful and i hadn't even specifically asked for your help. You've effectively made me look like an angry old man, and i appreciate that, and i deserved it. Thanks mate, hope i didn't offend you, just had my button pressed one too many times.

oh and btw, stuster, i wasn't saying anything derogatory about anyone else's beers, just the fact that if you HAVE been out mowing the lawn in 40+ then you're hardly gonna wanna sit down to a 9% thick gooey chocolate beer served at 8degrees are you?


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## SJW

> oh and btw, stuster, i wasn't saying anything derogatory about anyone else's beers, just the fact that if you HAVE been out mowing the lawn in 40+ then you're hardly gonna wanna sit down to a 9% thick gooey chocolate beer served at 8degrees are you?


I could drink a Bock at any time.  
Ok everyones cool now


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## Stuster

maltedhopalong said:


> oh and btw, stuster, i wasn't saying anything derogatory about anyone else's beers, just the fact that if you HAVE been out mowing the lawn in 40+ then you're hardly gonna wanna sit down to a 9% thick gooey chocolate beer served at 8degrees are you?



That's true. I certainly do know what you're saying. Another thing you might want to take a look at is Belgian beer. They can be lightly hopped, bursting with flavour but with a dry, refreshing finish as the yeasts have great attenuation.


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## maltedhopalong

ta. i hang out on sports forums a lot and it's an unusual feeling to have ppl not hold 'having a different opinon' against u, thanks guys.


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## FazerPete

maltedhopalong said:


> Thanks for that, that actually was really helpful and i hadn't even specifically asked for your help. You've effectively made me look like an angry old man, and i appreciate that, and i deserved it. Thanks mate, hope i didn't offend you, just had my button pressed one too many times.


No worries mate, we've all had days like that and it takes a lot to offend me.  

Good brewing!...no matter what you like to drink


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## Steve

group hug now please


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## FazerPete

Steve said:


> group hug now please


Could this be called a Kodak moment? Aaahhhh  

Is it time to go home yet? I need a beer. :chug:


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## peterbulger

While being new to this site, I have been brewing a fair while. What keeps me brewing is that you can brew to ANY taste. I have and do use dry enzymes. My wife likes the lighter dryer beers while I like the darker maltier drops. 

However, drinking great malty beer all the time may result in that a spare tire growing around your waste. Not only does the enzyme produce a drier beer, there are also less carbs. 

..and I have had final SG down to 990 and sometimes a bit lower

Cheers to variety and choice

Pweder


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## Thirsty Boy

Just joining Pweder in going slightly back on topic. Not that I didn't enjoy the little tiff followed by the touching make-up hug 

I wonder if the "dry enzyme" is the same thing as the American "Beano". Beano is some sort of a digestive aid, but its made up of enzymes that are capable of cracking dextrines (unfermentable sugars) into fermentable sugars, so I suspect we are talking about the same sort of thing. 

I have read a few discussions about brewing with beano and I thought they might be relevant. So I might throw in a couple of the hints I heard for brewing with beano.

If you put it in your fermentor - Its gonna convert all/most of the dextrines; your yeast will chew the sugar, creating super dry, super thin beer at less than 1.0.

But.... like other enzymes, the ones in Beano (dry enzyme?) are vulnerable to being deactivated by heat. 

So -- 

If you were an AG brewer, you might put them into the mash at the end, or maybe even into the kettle before you turn on the flame and let them chew away on the dextrines for a while, then kill them off with your boil before they go too far and make your wort essentially completely fermentable. Then your beer would be much "dryer" without being completely dry.

A K&K man could achieve much the same thing by adding the enzyme to a mixture of his can and some water, letting it work away for a while, then bringing the mixture up to a boil to kill off the enzyme.

It would probably take a few brews worth of experimenting to get the timing and balance right ... but apparently its well possible.

I dont know the temperatures that the enzyme operates at the best, or anything else technical like that. But you might try a search for Beano on some American homebrewing forums. I've seen it discussed fairly often.

Or, like Pweder's good lady wife, maybe you like em super light and dry. In which case, toss em in the fermentor.

Just a couple more potential options. Hope they prove helpful.

Thirsty


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## Ross

Well, i got offered a beer down my local hbs last week & it was one of the commercial kits with enzyme (alaskan ice i think :unsure: ) . The result was a very clean refreshing beer & I thoroughly enjoyed it , no off taste at all. I love my big, hoppy, malty AG beers, but would welcome one of these anytime on a typical hot day here in qld :chug: 

cheers Ross


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## Ross

Isn't the effect of enzyme dependant on the amount added? If this is the case, surely just adding a little less, might give the crisp finish without stripping the beer too far :unsure: I've never used it & have little knowledge of the product, but if you can regulate its effect, then it could be a very useful tool in getting the finish you want.

cheers Ross


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## blackbock

I have seen the dry enzyme referred to on recipe sheets as "Amylase Enzyme", and if that's what it is, then good. 

But what I haven't been able to work out is why it suffices to just throw it into the fermenter, basically at room temperature, when AG brewers have to go to such lengths to achieve exactly the right temperature conditions for the Alpha and Beta Amylase enzymes in the grain to get to work breaking down the starches, dextrins etc.

Does anyone know the answer to this? Or are we talking about yet another type of Amylase enzyme, perhaps Gamma  I think more information is needed in general about what these "dry enzymes" are.


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## Thirsty Boy

blackbock said:


> Or are we talking about yet another type of Amylase enzyme, perhaps Gamma  I think more information is needed in general about what these "dry enzymes" are.



Yes .... assuming the Beano that the Americans are using is relatively the same stuff, and of course that the discussions I read were on the ball, then it is a different amalayse enzyme. There are a few different ones, they just play minor roles as compared to the Alphas and the Betas.

Also, the enzymes "work" outside of their optimum ranges, just not as efficiently. But the beer is a hell of a lot longer in the fermentor than it is in the mash tun. Dont know the tech details, but I imagine its something like that.

TB


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## peterbulger

I forgot to add that the brews take a lot longer in the fermenter. The more maltier the brew, the longer the enzyme will work to break down the sugars. Also, because of the lower SG mentioned earlier, it is difficult to use a hydrometer to know when it is done. I fall back to the "...wait til it stops bubbling, then another day, then have a look...". 

The off tastes mentioned by some amigos in the forum could be due to the enzyme still being active. Just a thought...

Pweder


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## MHB

Not going to comment on the taste of "Dry Beer" except to say that of my top 5 selling recipes 2 are dry beers - you can take it from that that they are fairly popular.

There are two types of "Dry Enzyme":-

Endogenous naturally occurring in malt and extracted from it to be used as a brewing additive. These are the same enzymes we know and love, isolated and concentrated. You dont see much of these as they are very expensive

Exogenous made usually by cultures of fungi, the fungi are either selected or engineered to make specific enzymes the same as or similar to the endogenous enzymes or having other properties perceived as desirable.

Using enzymes:-
Enzymes can be thought as a type of biological robot, they do 1 job they do it well and they keep doing it until something stops them.

The most common enzymes available to home brewers are either the "Dry Enzyme" powder we can add to a brew to reduce the complex carbohydrates into simple sugars that the yeast then converts into alcohol and CO2.

The worst thing you can do with enzymes is to misuse them, if for instance you add too little, the gravity will appear to stabilise, but the enzymes are still there working away slowly adding a little fermentable sugar to the brew every day, until the inevitable bottle bombs start detonating.

The other type of enzyme we see are the Promalt and Amlo type of product, these are usually a liquid and can be used as a fermentation aid like the dry enzyme powders.
They are also used in the mash to aid runoff. If you have a sticky mash, high adjunct levels or are trying to get faster runoff or better brewhouse efficiency they can be really useful.

Some of these are not denatured until near 100C so you have to be careful with them.

In Germany those brewers working under the Reinheitsgebot have been know to add finely powdered malt to the fermenter, the endogenous enzymes will act, all be it slowly, like a dry enzyme. As Thirst Boy pointed out; enzymes will work outside their peak ranges, but slowly.


MHB

PS
I have been thinking for some time about how to use malt powder as a dry enzyme, the obvious danger is infections on the malt, notably lactobacillus.
One thought was to sterilise some malt with peroxide, dry it carefully then milling and sifting it to remove the husks.

The aim is to sterilise without denaturing the enzymes.

Naturally the milling and sifting would have to performed in a sterile mill (sic, a blender or coffee grinder). Anyone with any experience in microbiology or enzymology - I would appreciate any input.

M


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## brettprevans

MHB why cant you run my LHBS?! that more detailed answer on a topic than ive ever got on all my past question combined from the old buggar who runs my LHBS. 

useful info on dry enzimes.


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## MHB

Thanks

My aim is to make the shop I have spent 20 years looking for, I like to think it's getting there, but there is a long way to go, the encouragement is appreciated.

Mark MHB


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## peterbulger

MHB
That was a cracker response - thanks

I only came back to add a Wikipedia reference with some useful info. Check out


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beano_(dietary_supplement)


Cheers
Pweder


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## Thirsty Boy

Nice response Mark.

Great info.

Maybe you could sterilize the dry malt by powdering and sifting it, then exposing the flour to UV light???


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## blackbock

MHB said:


> The most common enzymes available to home brewers are either the "Dry Enzyme" powder we can add to a brew to reduce the complex carbohydrates into simple sugars that the yeast then converts into alcohol and CO2.



Are you saying that the commonly available "dry enzyme" is made from fungi? :huh: 



> In Germany those brewers working under the Reinheitsgebot have been know to add finely powdered malt to the fermenter, the endogenous enzymes will act, all be it slowly, like a dry enzyme. As Thirst Boy pointed out; enzymes will work outside their peak ranges, but slowly.



Presumably they need water as well to get started? Otherwise we would have bags of Weyermann sugar lying around our homes  



> I have been thinking for some time about how to use malt powder as a dry enzyme, the obvious danger is infections on the malt, notably lactobacillus.
> One thought was to sterilise some malt with peroxide, dry it carefully then milling and sifting it to remove the husks.



Interesting idea. Keep us informed of the results!


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## MHB

Blackbock - more specifically BY fungi, but so is penicillin and a host of other products we use regularly; like the enzymes in laundry powder for instance, I wouldnt let it worry me.

And yes I did mean to a fermenter with beer in it.

Thirsty Boy - good thought, tho I wanted to sterilise the outside of the grain, before milling.
I figure that any steriliser like UV at high enough levels to sterilise would also denature the enzymes and that the inside of the malt isnt a major concern.

But to take the thought 1 step further making Ozone with UV then blowing it through the grain might do the trick; and it would save on drying the grain.

Cheers

MHB


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## Thirsty Boy

True, the photons would probably knock around the molecular structure of the enzymes at least as badly as the bacteria.

Maybe you could put a UV tube in the axis of a tumbler with grain inside, that way after a while all surfaces of the grain would be exposed to the light..... dunno.

I do like the ozone idea though


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## Guest Lurker

I suspect UV wouldnt work inside a tumbler, it would be pretty hazy in there. When we put UV sterilizers on bore water supplies, if the water isnt crystal clear, we have to run a filter upstream, otherwise the E coli sneak through hiding behind the suspended particles.


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## Thirsty Boy

Ahh well. it sounded good for a minute or two...


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## Lobsta

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just joining Pweder in going slightly back on topic. Not that I didn't enjoy the little tiff followed by the touching make-up hug
> 
> I wonder if the "dry enzyme" is the same thing as the American "Beano". Beano is some sort of a digestive aid, but its made up of enzymes that are capable of cracking dextrines (unfermentable sugars) into fermentable sugars, so I suspect we are talking about the same sort of thing.
> 
> I have read a few discussions about brewing with beano and I thought they might be relevant. So I might throw in a couple of the hints I heard for brewing with beano.
> 
> If you put it in your fermentor - Its gonna convert all/most of the dextrines; your yeast will chew the sugar, creating super dry, super thin beer at less than 1.0.
> 
> But.... like other enzymes, the ones in Beano (dry enzyme?) are vulnerable to being deactivated by heat.
> 
> So --
> 
> If you were an AG brewer, you might put them into the mash at the end, or maybe even into the kettle before you turn on the flame and let them chew away on the dextrines for a while, then kill them off with your boil before they go too far and make your wort essentially completely fermentable. Then your beer would be much "dryer" without being completely dry.
> 
> A K&K man could achieve much the same thing by adding the enzyme to a mixture of his can and some water, letting it work away for a while, then bringing the mixture up to a boil to kill off the enzyme.
> 
> It would probably take a few brews worth of experimenting to get the timing and balance right ... but apparently its well possible.
> 
> I dont know the temperatures that the enzyme operates at the best, or anything else technical like that. But you might try a search for Beano on some American homebrewing forums. I've seen it discussed fairly often.
> 
> Or, like Pweder's good lady wife, maybe you like em super light and dry. In which case, toss em in the fermentor.
> 
> Just a couple more potential options. Hope they prove helpful.
> 
> Thirsty






MHB said:


> Not going to comment on the taste of "Dry Beer" except to say that of my top 5 selling recipes 2 are dry beers - you can take it from that that they are fairly popular.
> 
> There are two types of "Dry Enzyme":-
> 
> Endogenous naturally occurring in malt and extracted from it to be used as a brewing additive. These are the same enzymes we know and love, isolated and concentrated. You don't see much of these as they are very expensive
> 
> Exogenous made usually by cultures of fungi, the fungi are either selected or engineered to make specific enzymes the same as or similar to the endogenous enzymes or having other properties perceived as desirable.
> 
> Using enzymes:-
> Enzymes can be thought as a type of biological robot, they do 1 job they do it well and they keep doing it until something stops them.
> 
> The most common enzymes available to home brewers are either the "Dry Enzyme" powder we can add to a brew to reduce the complex carbohydrates into simple sugars that the yeast then converts into alcohol and CO2.
> 
> The worst thing you can do with enzymes is to misuse them, if for instance you add too little, the gravity will appear to stabilise, but the enzymes are still there working away slowly adding a little fermentable sugar to the brew every day, until the inevitable bottle bombs start detonating.
> 
> The other type of enzyme we see are the Promalt and Amlo type of product, these are usually a liquid and can be used as a fermentation aid like the dry enzyme powders.
> They are also used in the mash to aid runoff. If you have a sticky mash, high adjunct levels or are trying to get faster runoff or better brewhouse efficiency they can be really useful.
> 
> Some of these are not denatured until near 100C so you have to be careful with them.
> 
> In Germany those brewers working under the Reinheitsgebot have been know to add finely powdered malt to the fermenter, the endogenous enzymes will act, all be it slowly, like a dry enzyme. As Thirst Boy pointed out; enzymes will work outside their peak ranges, but slowly.
> 
> 
> MHB
> 
> PS
> I have been thinking for some time about how to use malt powder as a dry enzyme, the obvious danger is infections on the malt, notably lactobacillus.
> One thought was to sterilise some malt with peroxide, dry it carefully then milling and sifting it to remove the husks.
> 
> The aim is to sterilise without denaturing the enzymes.
> 
> Naturally the milling and sifting would have to performed in a sterile mill (sic, a blender or coffee grinder). Anyone with any experience in microbiology or enzymology - I would appreciate any input.
> 
> M



i would just like to thank both of you guys for your posts, they are the most complete and helpful posts on the topic i have found on this board so far. cheers fellas

Lobsta


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## Mantis

Ok, just read thru this whole thread. 
I have a Brewcraft kit in the fermenter that is a tin of goop, kilo of brewing sugars, hops and dry enzyme. Meant to be a pure blond knockoff. 
Didnt have a clue what the dry enzyme was meant to do till now. 
The brew is still bubbling slowly at day 9 and SG was 1008 on day 7. 
Question is, should I just let it bubble away till it stops or bottle it with maybe half the carbonation sugar of normal. 
I think I will get some PET bottles for this brew and never use dry enzyme again


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## tim_mortensen

Mantis said:


> Ok, just read thru this whole thread.
> I have a Brewcraft kit in the fermenter that is a tin of goop, kilo of brewing sugars, hops and dry enzyme. Meant to be a pure blond knockoff.
> Didnt have a clue what the dry enzyme was meant to do till now.
> The brew is still bubbling slowly at day 9 and SG was 1008 on day 7.
> Question is, should I just let it bubble away till it stops or bottle it with maybe half the carbonation sugar of normal.
> I think I will get some PET bottles for this brew and never use dry enzyme again



Mantis,

Haven't bothered reading through the thread, but in answer to your question; let it finish fermenting (actually this is a general rule!). With the enzyme it may go down to <1004. So give it time to finish then just bottle and carbonate normally.

Cheers,
Tim


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## pint of lager

Like MHB said, dry enzymes can take a long time to finish up.

The usual answer is to make sure you have a stable sg reading over 2-3 days, then bottle.

With a dry enzyme brew, leave it for at least 10 -15 days in the fermenter and double check the sg is stable over 3-5 days.

Don't trust the airlock, it may bubble slowly for a month. It will also bubble with changes in temperature and changes in atmospheric pressure. Use your hydrometer.


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## Mantis

pint of lager said:


> Like MHB said, dry enzymes can take a long time to finish up.
> 
> The usual answer is to make sure you have a stable sg reading over 2-3 days, then bottle.
> 
> With a dry enzyme brew, leave it for at least 10 -15 days in the fermenter and double check the sg is stable over 3-5 days.
> 
> Don't trust the airlock, it may bubble slowly for a month. It will also bubble with changes in temperature and changes in atmospheric pressure. Use your hydrometer.



Just did another SG and its down to 1004 from 1008 two days ago. Airlock hasnt bubbled for days. Will keep checking as you say until its stable. But, I have to go into hossy for an operation next tues, so if it hasnt stabilised by monday I guess just leaving it for another 8 days till I am able to bottle would be ok, yes? 

Oh, and BTW, I tasted the sample and I know what you guys mean by a super dry hops only taste, cause thats what it is. I am learning so much in here, so thanks heaps


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## pint of lager

That will be fine for another 8 days. So long as it isn't sitting on a heat mat. Leaving it for any time with the yeast and trub on a mat would not be a good idea.

All the best for your hospital stay.


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## Mantis

pint of lager said:


> That will be fine for another 8 days. So long as it isn't sitting on a heat mat. Leaving it for any time with the yeast and trub on a mat would not be a good idea.
> 
> All the best for your hospital stay.




Thanks. 
I will move the fermenter to a spare room that is cooler than the rest of the house. 
Will have to go buy another fermenter now as I want to put down another batch before I go in. This will be an all malt brew with nooooooo enzymes


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## under

Mantis how did it work out. 

I put down a brew yesterday with a dry enzyme to test it out. 

Used -

1 x Can Coopers Heritage Lager
1kg Superbrew (think its 500g LME, 250g DEX, 250G malto?? maybe..)
1 x Packet cluster hops (steeped 10min then chucked in)
1x Packet Dry enzyme
1x Coopers Lager yeast


Since reading, I wish I had left the enzyme out.


Im thinking if I were to prime with lme or something like that, woul it make it a better beer.

Or is there someway at the end of fermenting I can do to make it better.


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## under

Hmmm.

4 days @ 22c and its at 1007. Dosent seem right. Tastes ok out of the hydrometer. Nice hops zing and a dry finish.

Sound weird to anyone???


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## kyleg

Just read through this thread on my iPhone. Eyes a bit sore. I have a brew of American stout that's been sitting in my secondary for about 2 months now, from memory OG was about 1058, with a target FG of about 1014, how ever the brew only fermented out to 1021. 

I was wondering if this dry enzyme could be used to reach my target FG of around 1.014...?

Thanks


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## joshuahardie

In my experience with the Dry Enzyme, you simply won't be able to stop it at a desired FG.
I would expect it would drop down below 1008, which you may not want.

How does your stout taste. If it is not too sweet, don't stuff around with it.

If it is far too sweet for your liking, and you don't want to blend with a drier beer, sure give it a go, because the only other option is turfing the beer.


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## kyleg

Yeah that is what I'm thinking, it's sitting in the secondary at the moment and I've contemplated dumping it to spare up the carboy. So I think I'll try this and if it doesn't work lesson learnt, no real harm done.


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## Termite

Hi guys 
I know this is an old post but I use a dry enzyme in 99% of my brews and get no bad flavours 
I brew with extract and only omit the enzyme if I add a grain infusion pack
I also dont boil my hops any longer then 30 seconds 
I bring hops extract and 2 litres of water to the boil and let cool then strain into the fermenter 
Then top up with filtered water and add the enzyme the then yeast starter
And bingo never had a failure


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## yankinoz

Funny thing: Cluster hops, like me, are of American origin and very old. The beers I drank in my youth mostly used them for bittering, but only to 10-15 IBUs, sometimes for late additions. Used as above, lightly, I suppose they're useful for nostalgia brews.


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