# The New Unique Australian Beer



## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

I posed this question in an other thread (sorry Pumpy for the wee hijack) but I am very interested in everyone's thought's on what we could come up with as craftbrewers as being uniquely Australian in style.

I just wonder with all the grains, yeasts and hops available to the Aussie brewer would it not be possible to pioneer a new uniquely Australian style of beer? I wonder if there is an opening between all the various styles to come up with something, well Dinki-Di Australian?

I guess it would have to be an easy drinker, something for the hotter months and would need to appeal to the greater masses as well. So what would be your suggestion for an unique Aussie icon beer?

I like the SMASH idea of James Craig's with a single BB pale malt and Galaxy but instead with a clean lager yeast like 34/70?

What's your suggestion?


Chappo


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

I dont think we can claim that 34/70 (Weihenstephan lager yeast) is australian Chaps.

but i like the idea


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## Katherine (2/6/09)

I brew Australian beer.... with some local produce and imported produce...

cheers 

katie


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> I dont think we can claim that 34/70 (Weihenstephan lager yeast) is australian Chaps.
> 
> but i like the idea



True but unlike a fair majority I really don't like the coopers yeast culture. I can hear the stampede on the keyboards now but quite simply I don't and it lends itself more toward a belgium than anything else IMHO. That being said I'm not aware of a lager or ale yeast strain that is uniquely Australian? Maybe a guru or three might correct me?

Cheers


Chappo


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

have we got a uniquely australian fruit/grain that we could culture some wild yeast from?


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## bum (2/6/09)

Let's hold off on this one 'til Bizier gets his hop sorted.


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

Which hop bum?


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## bum (2/6/09)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=33429


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## tcraig20 (2/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I like the SMASH idea of James Craig's with a single BB pale malt and Galaxy but instead with a clean lager yeast like 34/70?



Not entirely my own idea there Chappo. At a guess I'd say that Stone and Wood's draught lager is pale malt, galaxy, and some (15%?) sugar - not sure on the yeast. Well, that's the impression my rather unsophisticated taste buds got anyway.


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## Renegade (2/6/09)

bum said:


> Let's hold off on this one 'til Bizier gets his hop sorted.



Isnt POR a uniquily Australian hop ? 

Bizier could be a while :unsure:


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## floppinab (2/6/09)

I made something pretty close to the above but given the amount of Wheat produced in this country I thought a hefty portion of wheat in the bill was appropriate.
Off the top of my head it was about 60% JW Ale, 40% JW Wheat and 3 additions of galaxy. I've had it on tap for a while but interestingly have also had a classic German Pils next to it. The Pils was gone in 2 weeks, 2 months later I've still got quite a bit of the Aussie Wheat Lager left.


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## fraser_john (2/6/09)

I would say that it would have to be POR based, it is a uniquely Australian bred hop and held the record for AA% for a while. If Galaxy is unique, then it could be used as well to provide flavour/aroma.

All Aussie malts would also be essential.

Oh, and the Coopers yeast too....just ferment at a lower temp, say 18-19c.

Just the recipe now.......

John

edited for yeast


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## gibbocore (2/6/09)

yeah i reckon it has to have coopers yeast.


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

Ok this is what we have to work with:
Grains:
Choc Chit - JW
Wheat Flaked - JW
Rice Flaked - Blue Lake
Ale Malt - Blue Lake
Caramalt - BB
Ale Malt - BB
Pils Galaxy -BB
Pils Pale Malt - BB
Wheat Malt - BB

There could be a couple more I'm sure?

Hops
Galaxy
POR
Cluster (Aust grown)
Summer Sazz (necer tried it)
Super Pride.

Gotta get something tasty out of that lot?


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## tcraig20 (2/6/09)

gibbocore said:


> yeah i reckon it has to have coopers yeast.



Do we have any characteristically Australian yeast apart from the coopers yeast?


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## tcraig20 (2/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Hops
> Galaxy
> POR
> Cluster (Aust grown)
> ...



Millennium (US cultivar, Aust grown)
Nugget

I notice Ross also has some 'Australian Tettnang'.


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## gibbocore (2/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Ok this is what we have to work with:
> Grains:
> Choc Chit - JW
> Wheat Flaked - JW
> ...



What about a galaxy and wheat summer ale, FWH with galaxy and late hopped with summer sazz (i love this hop). Ferment at 16 deg with coopers.

Shit i think i might make that.


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## winkle (2/6/09)

I'd be inclined to go with
BB Ale
BB Wheat
maybe a bit of cane sugar

hops-
Super Pride
& Galaxy
(Summer Saaz is a bit ho hum)

Coopers yeast around 17 c.


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## tcraig20 (2/6/09)

I might as well be the one to ask the stupid question: what would make it a style? 

Making a decent beer is one thing, making something that adds to the brewing nomeclature is something else.


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## geoffi (2/6/09)

JamesCraig said:


> Do we have any characteristically Australian yeast apart from the coopers yeast?




A couple of years ago I gave a bloke who lives up the road a bottle of WLP013 slurry. He brews stacks of extract beer of indifferent quality, and I thought it might give his product a lift.

A few months ago I went back for a visit and was offered a beer. Most peculiar flavour. Not completely undrinkable, but a sort of Weizen-gone-wrong character.

He proudly told me that it was made with the same yeast I'd given him 18 months before. He'd been reusing the yeast ever since, just dumping each new batch of wort onto the yeast cake. It must have been through at least 20 generations.

Now that's a uniquely Australian yeast. Not one I'd recommend, but definitely unique.


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

UPDATED
Grains:
Choc Chit - JW
Wheat Flaked - Blue Lake
Rice Flaked - Blue Lake
Caramalt - BB
Ale Malt - BB
Pils Galaxy -BB
Pils Pale Malt - BB
Wheat Malt - BB

There could be a couple more I'm sure?

Hops
Galaxy
POR
Cluster (Aust grown)
Summer Sazz (necer tried it)
Super Pride
Millennium
Nugget

Yeast
Coopers


I have had a thought I'm gunna brew say the 3 best recipes that comes from this little exercise split off 6 tallies to the recipes' owner and take the rest of 'em to the BABBS meeting for opinions.


Chappo


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## bum (2/6/09)

But, Chappo, don't forget it really should be BIAB and no-chill.


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## Sammus (2/6/09)

What's wrong with VB as an aussie beer?


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## winkle (2/6/09)

JamesCraig said:


> I might as well be the one to ask the stupid question: what would make it a style?
> 
> Making a decent beer is one thing, making something that adds to the brewing nomeclature is something else.



Your right, my suggestion would be somewhere between a summer ale and a weizen, hardly that different.
Back to the drawing board.


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

bum said:


> But, Chappo, don't forget it really should be BIAB and no-chill.




Actually Bum for once your dead right! It MUST be BIAB and No Chill.

Hmmmmm? Bribie mate might have to come up to yours for a big brew day mate?

Cheers

Chappo


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## bum (2/6/09)

What's this "for once" bullsh1t?!

IT IS ON!

[edit: swearbear]


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## Bribie G (2/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I posed this question in an other thread (sorry Pumpy for the wee hijack) but I am very interested in everyone's thought's on what we could come up with as craftbrewers as being uniquely Australian in style.
> 
> I just wonder with all the grains, yeasts and hops available to the Aussie brewer would it not be possible to pioneer a new uniquely Australian style of beer? I wonder if there is an opening between all the various styles to come up with something, well Dinki-Di Australian?
> 
> ...






Chappo said:


> True but unlike a fair majority I really don't like the coopers yeast culture. I can hear the stampede on the keyboards now but quite simply I don't and it lends itself more toward a belgium than anything else IMHO. That being said I'm not aware of a lager or ale yeast strain that is uniquely Australian? Maybe a guru or three might correct me?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...



Chappo, on Sunday at the case swap I will ply you with two examples of a SMASH of BB Pale Pilsener and Superpride, rice and sugar. I made two identical recipe batches and fermented one with w 34/70 and the other with a uniquely Australian yeast, Mauri Lager 497, bottled on the same day. I was going to bring them both along to the BABBs June meeting but they are both now drinkable, so we can do a taste off. :icon_cheers:

Edit: for a truly Australian style it better frign RAIN so the rice can be Murray River rice


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## BOG (2/6/09)

And the no chill cube has to sit on the top step of the swimming pool to chill down prior to pitiching.

Very Australian....



BOG


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

bum said:


> What's this "for once" bullsh1t?!
> 
> IT IS ON!



ROFL! Didn't think you pick that one up so quick? Whoops did it again didn't I? Nuthin worse than an angry bum.



BribieG said:


> Chappo, on Sunday at the case swap I will ply you with two examples of a SMASH of BB Pale Pilsener and Superpride, rice and sugar. I made two identical recipe batches and fermented one with w 34/70 and the other with a uniquely Australian yeast, Mauri Lager 497, bottled on the same day. I was going to bring them both along to the BABBs June meeting but they are both now drinkable, so we can do a taste off. :icon_cheers:



:icon_drool2: Taste off!

What about the BIAB Bribie any chance of using your gear?


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

are we suggesting that BIAB and no chill are uniquely aussie? 

edit:


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

Well aren't they?


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

i didnt think so. but they might be. i'll admit i havent investigated. so i guess its a legit question someone can answer.


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## geoffi (2/6/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> are we suggesting that BIAB and no chill are uniquely aussie?
> 
> edit:




I reckon they might well be Aussie innovations.


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

I wasn't around while all the hoohaa was happening but I thought Pistol Pete and Thirsty Boy really pioneered the whole thing?


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## bum (2/6/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> are we suggesting that BIAB and no chill are uniquely aussie?



Tall Poppy Syndrome!!!


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

bum said:


> Tall Poppy Syndrome!!!


my bum it is Bum. I just didnt think we (Aus) was the first to thihkn it up. if we did, then bloody marvellous! this thread is a bloody great idea. cant wait to see the end product.


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

Playing with the idea of 

Galaxy 75%
Roasted Wheat 15% (home roast :icon_drool2: )
Caramalt 5%

Suguz or rice 5%? Thinking rice but I'm a rice addict. Aussie grown of course

Cluster 
Nugget

Cooper yeast


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## Adamt (2/6/09)

I understand the premise behind this... but it's probably important to think about what a "style" is. The styles (BJCP, I'm referring to, but in general) are based off descriptions of well-known commercial beer styles. They were created for a couple of reasons.. to promote the rich heritage of beer, and to provide a baseline for brewing competitions. Without baselines, beer judging would be completely subjective and pointless. 

On Australian styles... for competitions' sake there are already guidelines for the AABC that cover many Aussie beers.

As far as the BIAB/No-chill malarkey goes, style guidelines should be (in the words of the BJCP) descriptive, not proscriptive. They should describe characteristics of the final product, not prescribe exactly what ingredients should be used, and how it should be brewed.

*takes of his Negative Neddy hat*


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## jayse (2/6/09)

I think what you want to get out of this is the question, do you want a style added to the state and nationals? 
If so any ingredients you use are up to you, you could make it out of anything you like because its the final beers colour, flavour and aroma etc which needs to be addressed. How you brew it is up to you, if you can get that flavour as described in the style guidelines out of dirty dishwater then so be it.
Its all about the finished beer, I think we do need a 'new world' pale and pilsner class to fit more into what local and NZ microbreweries and home brewers are brewing.

Or are you looking more at how the mash paddle first started, ie the beer must be brewed with these ingredients but there isn't really a style profile, judging is based on technical merit, balance and drinkabilty etc.
Anyway my ideas would be more toward lobbying for the introduction of 'new world' pale etc styles into our competions.


So yeah whats the bigger picture of what you want to achieve?


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## jayse (2/6/09)

Adamt said:


> As far as the BIAB/No-chill malarkey goes, style guidelines should be (in the words of the BJCP) descriptive, not proscriptive. They should describe characteristics of the final product, not prescribe exactly what ingredients should be used, and how it should be brewed.



Adam bet me too the punch, but yeah this is my line of thought.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I wasn't around while all the hoohaa was happening but I thought Pistol Pete and Thirsty Boy really pioneered the whole thing?




Hell no - not me. I've just got a big mouth that I'm not afraid to use. I've talked about it a lot (cause I like the sound if my own voice) bt no credit ot me for thinking of it or pioneering it in any way.

As far as the OP reason for this post -- I kind of like the notion of a wheat based beer with Galaxy hops - I'd put POR in there, but its an essential part of the one current "aussie" beer style - so lets go for something different.

I brewed a beer last Christmas that was 50% BB pale - 50% JW wheat and had NS and Galaxy Hops - it was a cracker and went down a treat over the hot x-mas period, even all my macro drinking relos and mates loved it.

So. Wheat - Aussie, Galaxy - Aussie, Nelson Sauvin .... NZ - BUT - is there anything more Aussie than pinching a successful Kiwi thing and _calling_ it "Australian" ??? - and Coopers Yeast. I used US56 ... but am dead sure the coopers profile would work well.

Light body and plenty of flavour so you can drink it ice cold - but its still got a bit of character

Aussie Wheat... that leaves room for wriggling on the hops and give a point of difference with an Aussie pale.

But for Christ's sake- lets make it a kristal - I've had enough of bloody cloudy beers.

TB


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## Katherine (2/6/09)

The history of BIAB is all on AHB... fantastic read if you ever get around to it.

and its PISTOL PATCH... not PETE! 

Thirsty and Spills did a fantastic interview which I found very informative and interesting... the link for that is also on the BIAB thread.


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## tcraig20 (2/6/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> i didnt think so. but they might be. i'll admit i havent investigated. so i guess its a legit question someone can answer.



Id say that they arent 'Australian' in any stylistic sense of the word. 

All real styles of beer have commercial examples. Show me one commercial brewery that uses either.

Australians may well have come up with them, but they are convient tools for home brewers, not a novel form of commercial production.


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## bum (2/6/09)

I was really just making a joke with the BIAB/no-chill thing. Sorry it seems inappropriate now that people are taking Chappo's concept a little more seriously (than he intended?).


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## Adamt (2/6/09)

Nothing wrong with discussion, bum. I was just trying to ensure things are steered in the right direction if it was serious!


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## bum (2/6/09)

Nah, I'm not having a go at anyone. I'm quite enjoying the discussion. Was just pointing out I wouldn't have made glib comments had I thought the topic would move towards actual submissions as a standard, etc.


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## Renegade (2/6/09)

Katie said:


> The history of BIAB is all on AHB... fantastic read if you ever get around to it.
> 
> and its PISTOL PATCH... not PETE!
> 
> Thirsty and Spills did a fantastic interview which I found very informative and interesting... the link for that is also on the BIAB thread.



Wow, I suspected it was an Aussie pioneering effort. DOing a quik historical search. could this thread be the birth of the idea that was put into practice by Pistol Patch ? Member James Squire, does he get free beers for eternity ?


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## kabooby (2/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I posed this question in an other thread (sorry Pumpy for the wee hijack) but I am very interested in everyone's thought's on what we could come up with as craftbrewers as being uniquely Australian in style.
> 
> I just wonder with all the grains, yeasts and hops available to the Aussie brewer would it not be possible to pioneer a new uniquely Australian style of beer? I wonder if there is an opening between all the various styles to come up with something, well Dinki-Di Australian?
> 
> ...



It's not new but I would think that AABC style guide 2.1 Australian Lager would tick all of your boxes Chappo. It's uniquly Australian, easy drinking, and appeals to the masses. 

Even if the more educated among us don't like the stuff

Kabooby


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

kabooby said:


> It's not new but I would think that AABC style guide 2.1 Australian Lager would tick all of your boxes Chappo. It's uniquly Australian, easy drinking, and appeals to the masses.
> 
> Even if the more educated among us don't like the stuff
> 
> Kabooby



I would agree Kabooby but we have styles such as APA which from my little knowledge usually dominate most competitions. Why is that? I'm more interested in a Uniquely Australian style that has that appeal not only to the masses but to us being the forefront of the brewing community. Something we are wanting to brew and call it Aussie.

As for what that style is I don't know but I do know this is the right place to plant that seed.

Cheers

Chappo


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## mash head (2/6/09)

Nothing more aussie than pinching stuff from all over the world mixing it up a bit and calling it Australian :lol: Greg


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## Tony (2/6/09)

JamesCraig said:


> I might as well be the one to ask the stupid question: what would make it a style?
> 
> Making a decent beer is one thing, making something that adds to the brewing nomeclature is something else.



Very true.

I think only one other noted this very important point that was made early on in the piece.

We can formulate recipes till the cows come home but what will make it a "style"

So far all i see is recipes for Aussie ale.

Now the way i see this is that i can brew a Kolsch.... but its not actually a Kolsch because it wasnt brewed in Cologne!

Therefor to define the style.... maybe you need to state that its not an Aussie ale if its not brewed next to a lit BBQ cooking snags while wearing thongs and a "Kiss the cook" aprin.

Another idea.......... years ago i smoked some malt over Ironbark chips. The beer tasted like an Aussie bushfire. It was not what you would call......... mainstream, but where else in the world can you drink a beer that tastes of Ironbark smoke?

I must do that again while i have itonbark out the back for the fire.

cheers


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## Josh (3/6/09)

If we are looking at "creating" a style unique to Aussies. We can do this as homebrewers. It's just deciding what style of beer to brew and then we as homebrewers can develop our own recipes to fit in with the style.

The way I see it, it's about making something up, not going with the current styles that already exist eg Australian Lager, Australian Ale. 

I'd also take into consideration that most major cities in Australia have a good water supply, so we don't necessarily need to go with too high a hop dominance or darker beer as a high sulfate or carbonate water might tend towards. So a light coloured, moderately hoppy beer would suffice. Australian hops would such as PoR and Galaxy would be ideal.

Wheat and sugar are in abundance so we can definitely lighten the colour even more there, and thin the body out a bit.

I would want to use Coopers yeast, but I wouldn't want to limit style to one particular yeast. So I would just say that in the style there is a noticeable ester profile, which pays homage to our origins as a British colony (Jase71 butt out).

So I think it's an Australian Wheat Beer
OG 1.046-1.052
FG 1.008-1.012
IBU 15-25
Low-medium hop aroma - Australian hops
Low-medium hop flavour - Australian hops
Low-high esters from fermentation
4.5-5.5 abv

Given all that, here's the recipe I might have to brew.

20L
50% JW Pilsener malt
50% BB Wheat malt
mash at 66C aiming for a 1.048 OG

20g Galaxy flameout
20g PoR 15 minutes
PoR bittering to 20IBU

Coopers yeast fermented at 20-22C for some banana ester production.

Thoughts?



Tony said:


> Another idea.......... years ago i smoked some malt over Ironbark chips. The beer tasted like an Aussie bushfire. It was not what you would call......... mainstream, but where else in the world can you drink a beer that tastes of Ironbark smoke?
> 
> I must do that again while i have itonbark out the back for the fire.


I was thinking of this today. You could also use Australian honey which can only be made here in our bush and forests.


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## jayse (3/6/09)

Tony said:


> snipped>
> 
> I think only one other noted this very important point that was made early on in the piece.
> 
> ...



I think some are waiting for the cows to come home :unsure: 

It is already a style I think, this new style is one that everyone is already making all over the world, its the brewers not making pale ale that fit the bitter style but they are not APA either nor are they any other style, its a balance of local hops with any number of malts made into a 5.0% flagship beer.






Josh said:


> If we are looking at "creating" a style unique to Aussies. We can do this as homebrewers. It's just deciding what style of beer to brew and then we as homebrewers can develop our own recipes to fit in with the style.
> 
> The way I see it, it's about making something up, not going with the current styles that already exist eg Australian Lager, Australian Ale.
> 
> ...



I would say the style can be much maltier than that and hops medium to high, any yeast. 
As far as aussie ingredients its a new 'style' any arguments that it would have this or it would have that is a bit off. We go to all sorts of lengths to get the best ingredients to go with this great pale ale we are going to make with these lovely local hops, and you can use lots of hops in this beer.


OG 1.046-1.058
FG 1.008-1.014
IBU 25-40
medium - high hop aroma - Australian, New Zealand or any new world unquie hops 
medium - high hop flavour - Australian hop same
Low-high esters from fermentation
4.5-5.5 abv

Malt and colour can be pretty wide some use marris otter some have munich, the greater proportion use crystal malt and some even use some choc malt.
These are New World pale ales, everyones doing it.


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## mfeighan (3/6/09)

how about something like emu export 

still cant forget a quote from one of my dodgy uni mates, all he drank was export and i asked why. 
He says "its the only beer that it doesn't matter if you drink it warm"


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## chappo1970 (3/6/09)

Jayse, Tony, Josh and Adamt,
I agree that a style needs to be defined and then the recipes will flow. I see gaps currently in the style guidelines that a distinctly Australian beer could sit:

Australian Bitter Ale
Australian Porter
Australian Amber
Australian Pils
Australian Pale Ale
Australian IPA
The last three IMO is were the glaring holes are that I know we can work on.

Toughts, comments?


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## joshuahardie (3/6/09)

Has anyone tried the crown lager ambassador?
It screams all australian style to me, all aussie ingredients, and not really in any current style.... hmmm imperial Australian lager?


although, i should probably be shot for even mentioning the crown word
:icon_cheers:


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## Supra-Jim (3/6/09)

Would need some other distinctly Aussie elements to i would think.

Maybe instead of fancy stainless/copper brewery equipment, a true aussie beer could be brewed/fermented in a converted corrugated iron water tank??? Mash paddle fashioned from a stick and an old thong? ( h34r: perhaps an aussie lambic from said thong????)

Enjoying the ideas being thrown around in this thread.

Cheers SJ


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## chappo1970 (3/6/09)

jayse said:


> I think some are waiting for the cows to come home :unsure:
> 
> OG 1.046-1.058
> FG 1.008-1.014
> ...




I like where this is going Jayse. Purely personal taste but I would like to see the beer go in the opposite direction to what we currently have on offer which has no balls in the hops or the malts department, yeah? Basically not offensive, characterless and as boring as hell would sum up Aussie Lagers and Ales.

I'm not talking brash in "yaw face" Americana or subdued "I wish the sun would shine" Pommy either. But I know within myself that I would like to see a beer brimming with character like Australians are. I like Josh's Wheatie idea I reckon it's got merit but on the same hand a true aussie AU-PA gets my rocks off.

I'm really enjoying this thread BTW guys.

Cheers

Chappo


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## Bizier (3/6/09)

I agree that you really need to differentiate this from an APA, and Galaxy hops are very American-ish.

How about 100% pilsner
35 IBU of Galaxy
Fruiter ale yeast

Hang on... this is a CSA clone with Galaxy

I really think that POR is a definitive and recognisable Australian flavour. I recently used a bunch late in a wet-hopped beer, and the result is quite interesting.

BTW, I can't breed without a male *cough* all I have is a healthy young randy nubile female harem for one lucky humulo-suitor.


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## Fatgodzilla (3/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I like where this is going Jayse. Purely personal taste but I would like to see the beer go in the opposite direction to what we currently have on offer which has no balls in the hops or the malts department, yeah? Basically not offensive, characterless and as boring as hell would sum up Aussie Lagers and Ales.
> 
> I'm not talking brash in "yaw face" Americana or subdued "I wish the sun would shine" Pommy either. But I know within myself that I would like to see a beer brimming with character like Australians are. I like Josh's Wheatie idea I reckon it's got merit but on the same hand a true aussie AU-PA gets my rocks off.
> 
> ...




Take your notion further Chappo. The only "real" American beer is pumpkin ale and it probably isn't authentic american anyway. All those other "american" styles are pale ales / lagers etc adapted to suit local products.

So, what is "our" pumpkin ale .. what is native to Australia that we can use in a a brew as a style ?


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## chappo1970 (3/6/09)

Bizier said:


> BTW, I can't breed without a male *cough* all I have is a healthy young randy nubile female harem for one lucky humulo-suitor.



Bizier we need you step up your hop campaign BTW mate. I only read thru that thread last night. I love the idea and it really is a worth while pursuit. Had much luck yet? I see someone was offering seeds?

Cheers

Chappo


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## tcraig20 (3/6/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So, what is "our" pumpkin ale .. what is native to Australia that we can use in a a brew as a style ?



Macadamia nuts. They are the only Australian foodstuff grown on any real commercial scale. 

Hmmm... Aussie Frangelico... but that would be another thread!


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## jayse (3/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Jayse, Tony, Josh and Adamt,
> I agree that a style needs to be defined and then the recipes will flow. I see gaps currently in the style guidelines that a distinctly Australian beer could sit:
> 
> Australian Bitter Ale
> ...



I think your thinking on the same lines as me now, although I think this thread has two very different sides, those talking about basically inventing a style on the spot one of which has not been brewed before and as lovely  as brewing in your thongs and filtering through some merino wool might be that style isn't gunna take off.

For this style I would say bitter, amber, pale and even IPA would all be in the same catergory with broad guidelines that covers beers that losely fit american pale and amber plus english bitter and pale but the hop character is more like new zealand and australian varieties such as bsaaz, dsaaz, NS and galaxy etc.
The style is fairly well balanced, commercial example could/would be to name a few of the top of my head, hargraeves hill ESB, Macs sazzy red, stone and wood draught, brewboys maiden ale, holegate Mt mac, white rabbit, gippsland gold, mildura storm, hop thief, bright ale, wicked elf pale, nirvana and the list is nearly endless and it is broad.

So the style is there it is being brewed yeah some may fit APA alright also and some may fit bitter OK but its a local style of the beers that are being brewed.
This is real its happening its not some crazy homebrew forum idea, its a new evolving style.


----------



## Supra-Jim (3/6/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So, what is "our" pumpkin ale .. what is native to Australia that we can use in a a brew as a style ?



That's a tough one. We've got plenty of unique bush spices and berries and such, however you would struggle to describe these as mainstream, as they're really only starting to appear in shops/fancy restaurants now. Where as pumpkin/sweet potato is pretty widely accepted/appreciated across America.

Kangeroo Stew Stout?  Can't imagine that one getting popular quickly. 

I do like the idea of using wheat, but not a wheat beer.

Cheers SJ


----------



## FNQ Bunyip (3/6/09)

like the sound of Tonys Iron bark smoked malt ,,, I'm a smoked malt fan ..

what about Wattle seeds , Lemon Myrtell (sp), Eucaliptus leaves... 

salt bush & Fort Bourke gypsum, for water chemistry

cheers


----------



## bconnery (3/6/09)

JamesCraig said:


> Macadamia nuts. They are the only Australian foodstuff grown on any real commercial scale.
> 
> Hmmm... Aussie Frangelico... but that would be another thread!



Holgates latest brown ale is apparently a macadamia nut brown. Haven't tasted it yet but there you go, it's already been done...


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## chappo1970 (3/6/09)

jayse said:


> <snip>...I think your thinking on the same lines as me now....


I am and I am starting to see your original reference points. I agree that the style should also support the NZ hop varieties as they are not only from our neck of the woods, so to speak, but also a major importer and hop influence here in Oz are they not? NZ hops also have a character that is subtly different from Yank hops IMO.

Chappo


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## Bizier (3/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I see someone was offering seeds?



Cheers Chappo,

I just had a 'special' moment where I couldn't find my own thread with a google search...


----------



## peted27 (3/6/09)

FNQ Bunyip said:


> like the sound of Tonys Iron bark smoked malt ,,, I'm a smoked malt fan ..
> 
> what about Wattle seeds , Lemon Myrtell (sp), Eucaliptus leaves...
> 
> ...



mmmm Eucaliptus leaves, they smell tasty. anyone tried chucking this in as a hop addition??


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## PostModern (3/6/09)

peted27 said:


> mmmm Eucaliptus leaves, they smell tasty. anyone tried chucking this in as a hop addition??



Apart from shuddering at the thought of making beer that tastes like Anticol, I found this on the web:



> *Poisonous Part of Eucalyptus:*
> Leaves, bark.
> *Symptoms :*
> Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, coma. Skin redness, irritation, and burning from handling leaves and bark. Eucalyptus oil is extremely toxic if eaten.
> ...



Adds a whole new meaning to the shout question, "What's your poison?"


----------



## peted27 (3/6/09)

PostModern said:


> Apart from making beer that tastes like Anticol, I found this on the web:
> 
> 
> 
> Adds a whole new meaning to the shout question, "What's your poison?"



takes care of that idea

edit:

ive eaten thousands of these (falvoured with Eucalyptus Oil) http://www.candystore.com.au/product.php?id=10&cat_id=5 and am still here to tell the story... so cant be that bad


----------



## Mercs Own (3/6/09)

A uniquely Aussie style???? you mean like this http://stoneandwood.com.au/blog/draught-ale/

Another unique style that comes to mind is American Wheat beer - it has wheat in it but doesnt use a wheat yeast to ferment. They use an ale yeast so doesnt that make it an Ale, or a pale ale (but not of course an American Pale Ale) but it is not a wheat beer in my mind.

"American wheat beer is a brand new style, invented by specialty brewers in the United States only about 10 years ago. It may even stretch the definition of "style," for nowhere is the creativity and diversity of America's craft brewers better displayed than in the new wheat beers.

American wheat beer does not use the traditional German weizenbier/weissbier yeast. The whole point of American wheat beer is to avoid the typical spicy/phenolic character of German wheat beers, which many brewers and beer drinkers find objectionable or unsaleable. Most micro and pub brewers use a conventional ale yeast, but doubtless there are bottom-fermented versions in use."

Uniquely Australian - VB, Fosters, Tooheys New, Tooheys Old, Emu Bitter, Coopers Ale etc they are already undique to Australia are they not? Stone and Wood Draughts seems to me to have been designed to be something a little different and therfore unique.

It may be possible to make something uniquely Australian (Barons Wattle Seed ale) but I would hate to see a style created that is similar to the American Wheat which to me is not a unique style at all - we all make ales with plenty of wheat malt and ale yeast and those who started doing this 15 years ago didnt even know they were brewing a uniquely american style??!??

How about a witchety grub wheat using, BB, Aussie hops, Aussie rice and a lager yeast at an ale temp that would be unique? 

The point is what are we already making that is unique to us?

I may be in a slightly cynical mood as I am out of work - time to get brewing.


----------



## PostModern (3/6/09)

This bit:



> Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, coma.



reminds me of my local pub. Maybe they have a secret eucalyptus beer on tap out the back?


----------



## Bizier (3/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> A uniquely Aussie style???? you mean like this http://stoneandwood.com.au/blog/draught-ale/



I think you are near spot on here Mr. Merc.
I thought that this beer nailed an ethereal Australian 'vibe', even if it did not particularly appeal to my sensibilities.


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## winkle (3/6/09)

> It may be possible to make something uniquely Australian (Barons Wattle Seed ale)



Rosella wit (for want of a better name) coming soon to a hogshead brewery near you  
Hopefully I can get the fruit for less than $10 a kg (effing Toowong prices) - I'm growing my own next year.


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## Bizier (3/6/09)

winkle said:


> Rosella wit (for want of a better name) coming soon to a hogshead brewery near you



How do you plan on getting a Rosella in your mashtun?


----------



## winkle (3/6/09)

Bizier said:


> How do you plan on getting a Rosella in your mashtun?



They follow the grain in. <_<


----------



## Fatgodzilla (3/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> 1.A uniquely Aussie style???? you mean like this http://stoneandwood.com.au/blog/draught-ale/
> 
> 
> 2. American wheat beer does not use the traditional German weizenbier/weissbier yeast. The whole point of American wheat beer is to avoid the typical spicy/phenolic character of German wheat beers, which many brewers and beer drinkers find objectionable or unsaleable. Most micro and pub brewers use a conventional ale yeast, but doubtless there are bottom-fermented versions in use."
> ...




Three interesting points from MO.

1. I like the usage of malted and unmalted grains in the stone & wood blurb. If we are to have a "new" and "unique" style, we need to think outside the square on ingredients. Forget rosellas, seagulls and wattle - whilst all plentiful, they are not commercially available in numbers to warrant thinking about. But there must be something ..

2. American wheat is a style through adjustment of an old recipe adapted to suit a new market. I have made a number of wheat based more on the american style than european (remember my dark american wheat that used Wyeast scottish ale in a past case swap). Maybe the unique australian concept beer will also be a major variation on an existing beer.

3. Didn't you have a member of your family that told you to forget acting and get a real job ?


----------



## tcraig20 (3/6/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Three interesting points from MO.
> 
> 1. I like the usage of malted and unmalted grains in the stone & wood blurb. If we are to have a "new" and "unique" style, we need to think outside the square on ingredients.



Stone and wood draught is sort of where this all started from (post 9). Im not sure that you could call it a unique 'style' of beer or not. 

Ive had this before, and its a decent enough drop. Quite thin, which you'd expect from Aussie beer. I didnt really pick up the wheat, or the unmalted grain (although my palate is probably not sophisticated enough to recognise unmalted grain). 

What really sets it apart from the macros is that it has flavour and aroma. I was very pleasantly suprised when I placed the first schooner under my nose caught a strong wiff of beautiful hop aroma. 

I agree it doesnt really fit with the 'low aroma' beers typical of Australia, but is it really a new 'style'?


----------



## PostModern (3/6/09)

JamesCraig said:


> Stone and wood draught is sort of where this all started from (post 9). Im not sure that you could call it a unique 'style' of beer or not.
> 
> Ive had this before, and its a decent enough drop. Quite thin, which you'd expect from Aussie beer. I didnt really pick up the wheat, or the unmalted grain (although my palate is probably not sophisticated enough to recognise unmalted grain).
> 
> ...



Galaxy hops will do that. Hit you with their presence, and they're not an unpleasant hop. Thing is, a lot of micros are using Galaxy now, which is not a bad thing in some ways, but it does mean that many many local beers have the same hop profile.

I haven't tried Stone and Wood yet. Would love to, tho.


----------



## KingPython (3/6/09)

Belgians use candi syrup, Australians use cane sugar so it should be in it's part of our history.
Bottle conditioned. Pale malts. Easily drinkable for our hot weather.
Using readily available ingredients it would be an Australian Pale Ale. Moderate use of sugar, pale malts, moderate hop bitterness, moderate hop aroma, moderate maltiness. 
A bit boring though. It's set apart from other pale ales by it's high use of sugar and new age Australian hops.


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## jayse (3/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> A uniquely Aussie style???? you mean like this http://stoneandwood.com.au/blog/draught-ale/
> 
> 
> The point is what are we already making that is unique to us?



These have been my exact points aswell but for the most part has fell on deaf ears with people claiming this brew should be something no one has brewed yet and made out of the arse of grandpa's gardening pants and other unique australian ingredients.

My idea is to set out some guidelines which discribe these new beers being brewed by everyone.




King Python said:


> Belgians use candi syrup, Australians use cane sugar so it should be in it's part of our history.
> Bottle conditioned. Pale malts. Easily drinkable for our hot weather.
> Using readily available ingredients it would be an Australian Pale Ale. Moderate use of sugar, pale malts, moderate hop bitterness, moderate hop aroma, moderate maltiness.
> A bit boring though. It's set apart from other pale ales by it's high use of sugar and new age Australian hops.



I disagree, these beers are craftbrewed styles already being made by microbrewers and homebrewers and no such examples use sugar and most have more hop character than that. I don't know of a single one which is simply a aussie sparkling ale with a little bit more pleasant hop character, maybe beechworth pale, but again that is a craftbrewed style not simply a thin swill pale.
The style can have more malt character and nearly always has more malt character than a standard aussie pale ale.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (4/6/09)

who the hell says there has to be THE Australian style?? Why cant there be a few?

Fair enough a candidate will, or might even already be, emerge from the commercial examples - but why cant someone try to envisage what a beer that was "Australian" by character and ingredient might be? Think it up, brew it, tell people how great it is and if they brew it and agree -- maybe it becomes popular enough to deserve an official style designation one day.

I'm for an Aussie wheat, light to med body and bitterness with Aussie or NZ hop character. Coopers or similar yeast.

That keeps the common features of the current reasonably unique aussie beers - and also the features of the beers that are actually popular with the majority of Australians - makes it a beer appropriate for the local climate - as well as using ingredients that are if not uniquely, certainly typically Australian.

I actually think that we have a better chance of inventing something on spec. I personally don't notice anything particularly unique emerging about most of the Micro brewed beers I taste - they are mostly well within what I would consider to be the existing styles of beer, usually English, American or Aussie pale ales - recently that might be a little different because so many of them are using Galaxy.

I love micro brewed beer - but to be honest there are bugger all of them doing anything much that could be considered new or different. Its still exciting when one of the local guys breaks away from the Pale Ale-Stout/Porter-Hefe trio and brews a belgian or something. Micros who have brewed something daring or unique and also actually good - are pretty thin on the ground. Certainly not common enough to be developing any sort of an ongoing theme.

IMO if we get a new genuinely Aussie style - it'll emerge from the less constrained ranks of homebrewers


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## Wardhog (4/6/09)

I was thinking the same thing myself, TB.

Next brew is going to be an invention. All Aussie malts (sod the sugar), Galaxy at 60 and POR at 15 to high 20s IBU.

-No hop aroma, just malt
-High 4 ABV, about 4.8 will be good
-All crystal malts to be centered around 50-75 Lovibond 
-Light fruitiness remains from the Galaxy, no trace of anything from the yeast (US-05 or a lager yeast)

I'm drooling just thinking about this. It's not complete yet, I have to think about a few more things, but it will certainly be a beer to drink rather than judge.


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## flattop (4/6/09)

It would be good to brew a style that worked for us... POR is a must, has to be drunk cold i mean COLD on a hot day, you have to hum working class man while brewing it in a blue truckies singlet to get the right flavor profile....

Seriously though, i guess what we are really known for here is middle of the range megaswill lagers (thinking blue cans)


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## chappo1970 (4/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> who the hell says there has to be THE Australian style?? Why cant there be a few?
> 
> Fair enough a candidate will, or might even already be, emerge from the commercial examples - but why cant someone try to envisage what a beer that was "Australian" by character and ingredient might be? Think it up, brew it, tell people how great it is and if they brew it and agree -- maybe it becomes popular enough to deserve an official style designation one day.
> 
> ...



TB I do like the way you think outside the square and totally agree. 

<Chappo hops up on the soapbox>
From my stance on this subject I really do believe more than any one entity, we the craft brewers of Australia, have the ability to not only to dream up a new style or three but also push it through to become an accepted Unique Aussie style. It may even go main stream but that not the object of the exercise by any stretch of the imagination. I don't believe commercial success is the ultimate measure and yard stick for the acceptance of a style. We are!

As for getting traction and acceptance. Well that needs to come from us as craft brewers. The more we accept a certain style and that style starts being brewed by us craft brewers and entered into competitions the style itself will hopefully become the norm. There are plenty of Club commitee members and Judges on this forum that could help, if they saw the need or felt strong enough, to make this happen make it become a reality rather than being a dream. 

Australia is a big beer drinking nation and to only have a handful of styles considered as being Australian I find riddiculous and to be honest embarassing. Seriously those style put forward as Asutralian are IMHO, well boring, flat and completely uninspired from an era that didn't have craft brewing as a main stream hobby. I for one would like to see this forum and it's members push the boundaries of style because we DO have the brains trust, we DO have the ability and we can effect change even if it is just at our level.

I do believe it is more than possible and do-able.
<Chappo hops down off the soapbox>





Wardhog said:


> I was thinking the same thing myself, TB.
> 
> Next brew is going to be an invention. All Aussie malts (sod the sugar), Galaxy at 60 and POR at 15 to high 20s IBU.
> 
> ...



I like it especially the lager yeast. I do think it needs to clean and let the flavours and aromas to come thru and shine.


Cheers

Chappo


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## marlow_coates (4/6/09)

"Four score and seven years ago....."  

Nice Chappo, I agree, just look at recent additions to styles accepted at competitions in recent years.

Will put some time and thought into how I am going to rumble up something Aussie inspired as of next week.

Marlow


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## Barry (4/6/09)

I have made two beers recently. Inspired by the Americans ability to take a style and add their influence (eg American IPA, APA). First is a brown ale, grain bill like an American brown ale but with WLP009 Aussie ale yeast hopped with POR and Galaxy to 40IBU with lots of flavour and aroma. An uncommon mix of esters, hops and dark malts (Americans don't seem to appreciate esters in anything besides wheat and Belgian beers).
The second is an attempt at an Aussie IPA. Basically make a sparkling ale with OG 1.065, 50 IBU, lots of POR and especially Galaxy (still in the fermenter, needs to be dry hopped with galaxy). 
Having new Australian hops such as Galaxy gives more freedom to be creative.
Just some ideas to kick around.


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## jonocarroll (4/6/09)

Chappo said:


> <Chappo hops up on the soapbox>


I'll add my $0.02 while I have a spare minute (edit: okay... that took a while);

What makes an 'English Beer' English - does it have tea and scones in it? 

What makes a 'German Beer' German - is it particularly productive?

I doubt that when Pilsners were being created people thought 'what would be particularly Bavarian about this?' - they were using a new technique (lagering), and that gave the beers a distinct character. English beers aren't low carbonated because the creamy head reminds them of fog. I find it odd to try to force the idea of a (new) 'Australian Beer Style' by randomly introducing 'Australian... things'.

Apart from the argument of 'why does Australia even need a style?' - a respectable style should come about naturally, and be identified as 'Australian' because that's where it originated - why should you not be considering a large proportion of the English ingredients? A style that comes about naturally in Australia will probably have English roots.

As for Australians being big beer drinkers, that's a bit of a stretch. Other countries are proud of their world-class beers, exported and respected globally. As Aussies we (as in, the general population) seem to be overly proud of the mainstream swill produced for local consumption, but you wouldn't put it out to play with the big boys. Sure, craft brewing is taking off in a big way, but it's still very much a minority, and ignored by most of the population. The term 'craft-brew' is actually known throughout America, and these beers are sought-after, not just stumbled upon. 

Now I'm all for craft-brewing, but I think this is where you'll need to look if you're ever going to see something 'Australian'. Even then, any 'new' style will likely fit somewhere in between BJCP styles, so it will be 'a bit of English with American notes', or whatever. As homebrewers we can play around with new techniques - and I believe that this is where those techniques will be developed - but those techniques will need to be picked up by micros before they get any good recognition.

I'm not trying to (entirely) discourage you, but rather make you think about 'what exactly it is that you're trying to do.' Although you'll likely make something quite nice with an interesting range of ingredients (and that's a great achievement) I think if you want to make 'a new style' you'll need to start looking into turning the entire process on it's head, and producing a new technique that gives a beer a distinct quality. Think what decoctions did for German beers. That may or may not come about by random trial and error, but education (one of the main reasons many people frequent this forum) is a great place to start.


----------



## eamonnfoley (4/6/09)

I would imagine that eventually a new style is going to "fall out" of all the activity/recipes on Aussiehomebrewer. From there, new breweries are going to take it up and bang - we have a new style. But an aussie style needs aussie ingredients (grain & hops) and probably a unique yeast strain (which we already have one in coopers). One of our strengths is decent quality malt, so maybe we need a way to showcase that in a beer style.

Has anyone taken the spakling ale concept any further in a way that works well? I.e. different hops/grain ?


----------



## eamonnfoley (4/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Think what decoctions did for German beers.



How about "What BIAB & no-chill did for Australian beers"


----------



## jonocarroll (4/6/09)

foles said:


> How about "What BIAB & no-chill did for Australian beers"


Well, BIAB isn't uniquely Australian (not sure of the origins of no-chill), and doesn't (flame suit: activated) alter the qualities of a beer. But that *is* exactly the point I was trying to make - any new processes we come up with that *do* uniquely affect the qualities of beer (in a positive way of course) will be what defines an 'Australian Beer Style'.

BIAB and no-chill have done great things for Australian _brewing_ - just not the beers or styles as such.


----------



## eamonnfoley (4/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Well, BIAB isn't uniquely Australian (not sure of the origins of no-chill), and doesn't (flame suit: activated) alter the qualities of a beer. But that *is* exactly the point I was trying to make - any new processes we come up with that *do* uniquely affect the qualities of beer (in a positive way of course) will be what defines an 'Australian Beer Style'.
> 
> BIAB and no-chill have done great things for Australian _brewing_ - just not the beers or styles as such.



Yeah I know - was saying it in jest. :icon_cheers: . 

I think local yeast, hops and grain are enough to create a beer style, if there is enough creativity.........


----------



## JoeG (4/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> I'll add my $0.02 while I have a spare minute (edit: okay... that took a while);
> 
> What makes an 'English Beer' English - does it have tea and scones in it?
> 
> ...



:icon_offtopic: 

I don't wish to be too picky here QB - but you may wish to read up on your beer history regarding pilsner. It had nothing to do with Bavarian brewers, and lagering as a brewing practice was around for a long time before Pilsner emerged as a style.

Anywho - back to the discussion.

Just brew it! All the recipes chucked about here sound pretty tasty.

Cheers


----------



## jonocarroll (4/6/09)

JoeG said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> I don't wish to be too picky here QB - but you may wish to read up on your beer history regarding pilsner. It had nothing to do with Bavarian brewers, and lagering as a brewing practice was around for a long time before Pilsner emerged as a style.
> 
> ...


<insert overly long quote to reply to a single point raised>

Hey, you're right. That completely invalidates my entire argument. What was I thinking? Your insightful, and clearly well researched, point of "Just brew it, it will be yummy" really does have deep meaning for the concept of creating a completely new style of beer to be recognised alongside the classics. I've no doubt that in the past the Trappist monks have been known to utter "Go forth, brother, and brew for us a random mix of ingredients brought forth from the mountains, for later we shall just call it 'a new style', and there shall be much rejoicing". <_<


----------



## brettprevans (4/6/09)

Wardhog said:


> Next brew is going to be an invention. All Aussie malts (sod the sugar), Galaxy at 60 and POR at 15 to high 20s IBU.
> 
> -No hop aroma, just malt
> -High 4 ABV, about 4.8 will be good
> ...


sounds like a bloody great summer beer. it doesnt have to be fancy just taste great. its the craftbrewers version of VB/new etc etc. something to drink and enjoy an not have to critique every element of it


----------



## jayse (4/6/09)

Morning Thirsty, 
Just picked some bits I'd like to put my own opinion on here, I don't by any stretch mean any disrespect to your opinion in doing so.



Thirsty Boy said:


> who the hell says there has to be THE Australian style?? Why cant there be a few?



My view is theres currently possibly a spot for new world styles to be introduce into the aaba guidelines.
Just as the new zealand brewers guild have just introduced to their guidelines, maybe some consultation with them would be the next step for this to get it off the ground.



Thirsty Boy said:


> Fair enough a candidate will, or might even already be, emerge from the commercial examples - but why cant someone try to envisage what a beer that was "Australian" by character and ingredient might be? Think it up, brew it, tell people how great it is and if they brew it and agree -- maybe it becomes popular enough to deserve an official style designation one day.


 
Sure go ahead and give it your best shot, it will take years before I see it becoming regonized, 50 AHBs' might brew it within the next year and it will be simply seen as a fad. Untill it is seen as a serious style and being widely commercially brewed I can't see any member of the bjcp, aha or aaba doing anything but have a giggle at the thought of this.

You may get it introduced into a standalone comp such as anawbs, depending on what the style ends up being I see this whole new yet to be invented style as fizzing in the arse after a year.
Quite happy for you guys to try prove me wrong.



Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm for an Aussie wheat, light to med body and bitterness with Aussie or NZ hop character. Coopers or similar yeast.
> That keeps the common features of the current reasonably unique aussie beers - and also the features of the beers that are actually popular with the majority of Australians - makes it a beer appropriate for the local climate - as well as using ingredients that are if not uniquely, certainly typically Australian.



A beer made like that would pretty much fit into this new world style I am talking about.



Thirsty Boy said:


> I actually think that we have a better chance of inventing something on spec.



I will with all respect disagree but it is going to take a lot of disagreements and discussion before we all find a happy medium we all agree on. 

What QuantumBrewer posted here I think is well said and I personally agree with this line of thought.



QuantumBrewer said:


> I'll add my $0.02 while I have a spare minute (edit: okay... that took a while);
> 
> What makes an 'English Beer' English - does it have tea and scones in it?
> 
> ...


----------



## King Brown (4/6/09)

I've thought about this before, to make something of Australian ingredients, thought about a wit, as australia produces a lot of wheat, and its light refreshing flavour would suit the hot aussie climate. Ferment with coopers yeast, loads of fruitiness would suit A wheat beer imo. Make it more bitter than a typical wit to reflect the aussie tastes, using POR (also quite a citrusy hop) Then add some wattle seeds or other bush spices.

On the subject of bush spices my old boss was a gourmet who reckoned wattle seed is excellent in coffee, perhaps a wattle stout would be very drinkable...

Id just like to experiment with ingredients that we have here to see what interesting beers could result


----------



## KingPython (4/6/09)

Let's make the equivalent of saison- we have the hot weather use a wine yeat and modify it for use in beer or use Coppers yeast and modify that to get higher temp usage- use cane sugar to thin it out, pale malts, a higher IBU than a Belgian- perfect summer beer.


----------



## floppinab (4/6/09)

Wardhog said:


> I was thinking the same thing myself, TB.
> 
> Next brew is going to be an invention. All Aussie malts (sod the sugar), Galaxy at 60 and POR at 15 to high 20s IBU.
> 
> ...



Damn close to what I mentioned in post #9 in this thread. I really put it together as an alternative to Aussie plain 'ol pub lager but and although I like the beer I've been disappointed in the reaction I've got from some of my mates. I may have overdone the galaxy a bit and that may be whats turning a few off. I would say if you head down this path keep at 2 additions tops and the IBU's relatively low.


----------



## Josh (4/6/09)

Okay I've had a read of the last few pages and I have one point. 

If we're trying to "invent" a new style that we can be proud of, I guess we don't need to be using solely Australian ingredients. We also don't necessarily need to follow craftbrewers in what they are doing. I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that styles such as American Brown Ale were pushed by homebrewers. As the craftbrewers saw what styles were popular among the homebrewers they started making those commercially. 

The idea might be just to find a hole in the beer tapestry and make it our own...

What about a dark wheat beer that is highly hopped as opposed to a wheat and yeast driven dunkelweizen?


----------



## Bizier (4/6/09)

Many beers are also developed from necessity and invention. Why use lager yeast and lager extensively here, when it costs us near a billion times the amount in electricity?

My attempts at a sour beer for a definitive Aussie beer proved less than popular


----------



## marlow_coates (4/6/09)

Josh, what your saying is something I have been thinking about for a while now, and just fits into this concept.

I know wheat beers are typically low IBU, so why not up the bitterness? 
Haven't tried it yet, but can't see it being horrible.

Also, was thinking due to most of the country being hot most of the time, fermenting at higher temps could be seen as a 'necessity' (if we ignore all modern forms of refridgeration)

In summary, 
:a wheat beer >50% 
:high IBU, 
:colour (no set limit?)(although I like the idea of a dark wheat, I don't reckon it looks as good as a light one)
:yeast - coopers yeast fermented low-mid 20's??, or any other yeast that will ferment reasonably well at higher temps

Have I just described a category of beer already in circulation?


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## KingPython (4/6/09)

Bizier said:


> Many beers are also developed from necessity and invention. Why use lager yeast and lager extensively here, when it costs us near a billion times the amount in electricity?
> 
> My attempts at a sour beer for a definitive Aussie beer proved less than popular


That's my line of thinking as well. We're known for bland lagers so why not go for some high temperature brewing with weird phenols.


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## Bizier (4/6/09)

King Python said:


> That's my line of thinking as well. We're known for bland lagers so why not go for some high temperature brewing with weird phenols.



OK, I have it!

Cooper's kit yeast at 35 degrees, 50% dextrose. That sums up a large portion of what Australians are doing. No other country is doing that.


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## KingPython (4/6/09)

Brilliant! I'll put down a batch now. 

Cane sugar despite all the shit it gets is important I think. It has a played a part in Australia's history and brewing history. Hell in America it's valued over corn syrup in Coke and other food\drink. It's a valid ingredient (in moderation) in my book.


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## flattop (4/6/09)

The thing is beer (and mead before it) has been around a hell of a long time, all the basic styles are already here, i'm sure that experimentation has been going on in many countries for a long time. What we don't have going against us is tradition and regulation, we mustn't conform to a Belgian or German style because that's where we brew but neither is there any point in re-inventing the wheel. Most of it has probably been tried before and failed (an therefore doesn't exist) or been successful and we are drinking it now.
The Germans had their purity law, the Belgians have the Abbey styles and Candi Sugar.... 

Really we pretty much have cane sugar and POR, will it give us a profile that will make a memorable beer?
I'm not sure that it will be easy to find a style significantly different from what is already out there.
A point in case, a wheat with high ibu is still a wheat.... not knocking the idea but we almost need a new "grain" to emit a new flavor profile.
I guess sugar cane could add to that but we almost need a "sunday lamb roast beer" or "bbq snags" flavor, or barramundi cooked in ashes....

We could brew a "Paul Hogans armpit" beer or Hugh Jackmans sideburns for those too young to remember Hoges....


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## jayse (4/6/09)

Josh said:


> I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that styles such as American Brown Ale were pushed by homebrewers. As the craftbrewers saw what styles were popular among the homebrewers they started making those commercially.



Really the whole modern microbrewing movement came about from homebrewers for the most part, even sierra nevada was once just a homebrewer in a shed, the way these beer styles came about is more at the heart of my arguement of styles naturally evolving out of known styles being pushed to there limits and incorporating local hop varieties to even the extreme. 
These styles come to be so wide spread they are now considered real world beer styles.

But there isn't anything doctored about it, such as this thread is, were a bunch of brewers debated it out to try and invent a totally new style ending up what ever group shouts the loudest gets what they think to be accepted and engraved in stone, it just won't ever happen that way.
Its the beer becoming popular and drunk everywhere which is going to make it a style.

It was a natural process of beer evolution such as the case with how the new zealand brewers guild have recently come out and said there is now a need to add some extra style catergories in competions to fit these pilsners and pales that brewers are brewing with non traditional local hop varieties that don't fit the traditional mold.

I can see now this thread is not at all with much reality and to be honest some delusional ideas for simply shits and giggles to hash it out and whoever shouts the loudest is gunna claim to invented a new style. :unsure: 
I'll be interested to see were it goes for sure but I think my serious agrument to follow the steps of the new zealand brewers guild must be a different topic all together.


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## jayse (4/6/09)

flattop said:


> ....
> 
> We could brew a "Paul Hogans armpit" beer or Hugh Jackmans sideburns for those too young to remember Hoges....



I'am glad there are at least a few people on the some wave length as myself.

Cheers
Jayse


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## eamonnfoley (4/6/09)

King Brown said:


> I've thought about this before, to make something of Australian ingredients, thought about a wit, as australia produces a lot of wheat, and its light refreshing flavour would suit the hot aussie climate. Ferment with coopers yeast, loads of fruitiness would suit A wheat beer imo. Make it more bitter than a typical wit to reflect the aussie tastes, using POR (also quite a citrusy hop) Then add some wattle seeds or other bush spices.
> 
> On the subject of bush spices my old boss was a gourmet who reckoned wattle seed is excellent in coffee, perhaps a wattle stout would be very drinkable...
> 
> Id just like to experiment with ingredients that we have here to see what interesting beers could result



Barons Brewery use wattle seed in one of their beers - very popular, was brewed by Barons in a UK brewery for the UK Wetherspoons beer festival.


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## flattop (4/6/09)

Golden ale (UK)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the United Kingdom, a Golden ale is a style of beer developed in the late 20th century by breweries to compete with the large light lager market.

A typical golden ale has an appearance similar to that of a Pilsener. Malt character is subdued and the hop profile ranges from spicy to citrus; common hop additions include Styrian Golding and Cascade. Alcohol is in the 4% to 5% range ABV.

Aussie brew
By Flattop
In Australia they got frustrated with Europeans getting the limelight with their stylistic brews so they designed a beer made with Kylie Minogues G string, Hoges shorts and added POR and sand from Gunamatta and a loose camel poo from NT to make sure that no one forgets where it came from.....


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## Muggus (4/6/09)

I reckon you could have a number of different "Aussie-style" beers, using distinctly Aussie ingredients.

Obviously you've got all of those bush spices that Barons use in their beers...lemon myrtle, wattleseed...but they generally add them to other styles of beer...English brown/Belgian Wit. The real deciding factor here seems to be the yeast and malt structures of the beers themselves, which are based around different styles.
Aussie yeast seems to be a no brainer...Coopers? Does the job, and can be quite versitile. 
Aussie grains/grist, seems easy enough with Aussie maltsters, but you could get more inventive than that. The use of cane sugar is quite original (if not frowned upon) in the brewing world. Pair that with wheat, rice, and other grains you wind up with something a bit different all together. 
You could almost make an Aussie-style Saison, using Coopers yeast for complex esters, bush spices, and a malt bill with cane sugar and a few different Australian-grown grains, and you wind up with something that wouldn't taste anything like a Belgian counterpart. Hell, age it in Bundy Rum casks and BAM, totally Aussie.


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## flattop (4/6/09)

Hmm when i read Aussie style Saison i almost spat it.... isn't that what we are trying to avoid? Matching our style to another then it's not an Aussie Hoges, its a "saison" but then go on to read aged in Bundi casks and all of a sudden there is a style developing...
Has anyone milled a uniquely Aussie seed and made it a decent percentage of the grain bill?
Imagine 50% wattle seed, 50% pils with cane sugar to compensate for any loss of of fermentable sugars in the wattle top it off with POR...

Of course there is the issue of getting 3k of wattle seed....


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## chappo1970 (4/6/09)

jayse said:


> I'am glad there are at least a few people on the some wave length as myself.
> 
> Cheers
> Jayse




Ahh! But Jayse this topic is a wonderful talking point and debate, no?

I agree that style will evolve with the popularity of a beer and it's twist or stretch on a traditional style. I guess by the intelligent debate thus far on this thread that there is some interest in the topic. I still believe it can happen even if only one person is inspired and goes on to fame and fortune I would be happy. I'll be dead in 30 years so I probably won't get to see it happen anyway but I like the thought of it becoming real none the less. :icon_cheers: 

Cheers

Chappo


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## Muggus (4/6/09)

flattop said:


> Has anyone milled a uniquely Aussie seed and made it a decent percentage of the grain bill?
> Imagine 50% wattle seed, 50% pils with cane sugar to compensate for any loss of of fermentable sugars in the wattle top it off with POR...
> 
> Of course there is the issue of getting 3k of wattle seed....


I'm not sure wattle seed would be used as a fermentable, more like a spice. The flavour is pretty strong from what i remember.

Actually on that note, are there any unique Australian grains out there?


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## pdilley (4/6/09)

Australia has wild peach, native pepper and native flowers that produce all sorts of jams for anyone who has their head out of their rear you can find tons of native foods.

Australia has bloody hot summers and in some areas bloody cold winters. There is at least 2 beer styles crying out right there which would need to brew out in counter-seasons. I'd like to see something that incorporates a uniquely Australian ingredient/adjunct in at least one recipe. We can get 3 recipes if we go low gravity, medium gravity, high gravity and work it out from there.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## chappo1970 (4/6/09)

Pete tell more about these flowers please?

Chappo


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## geoffi (4/6/09)

Bizier said:


> OK, I have it!
> 
> Cooper's kit yeast at 35 degrees, 50% dextrose. That sums up a large portion of what Australians are doing. No other country is doing that.




Don't forget the sweat filtered through a blue singlet. That's vital to the flavour profile.


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## pdilley (4/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Pete tell more about these flowers please?
> 
> Chappo



Moreso fruit after the flowers but we have in addition to whats been mentioned, wild lime, native currants, muntries, passionberries, quandongs, sandpaper figs, mountain pepper, lemon myrtle, native raspberry, native giner, midyim, cedar bay cherry, candle nuts, burdekin plums, bunya nuts, bungwall fern, riberries, um.. and more! 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## flattop (4/6/09)

I think we need ingredients that are very readily available and close to hand...


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## tcraig20 (4/6/09)

Muggus said:


> I'm not sure wattle seed would be used as a fermentable, more like a spice. The flavour is pretty strong from what i remember.
> 
> Actually on that note, are there any unique Australian grains out there?



There are. None of them commercial, but there are a lot of wild grasses that were exploited by the Aborigines, along with starchy yams, nuts, cycads, etc. Cant recall specific names or species at the moment though...

Edit: if you want a true 'novelty beer' a Bunya nut trippel would be a nice touch - Bunya pines only fruit every three years.


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## Mercs Own (4/6/09)

I was reading this thread tonight when my wife came in to the office and asked what I was reading about. I filled her in saying that it was a post about creating a uniquely Australian beer and her comment was - "dont we already have one?" I responded by asking her what she thought that was. She said.....Coopers.

nuff said

the amount of time people refer to using Coopers yeast in this thread as a uniquely Australian identity screams out that most likely Coopers is a truly unique Australian beer - doesnt it?

My point earlier about American wheat beer being an American bastardisation of a style is backed up by them now making their own styles of IPA, PA and all the rest - all they are doing is taking a style and adding a nuance and calling it theirs - is it????? No! Pumpkin Ale is a uniquely American beer - American wheat is not.

The question to me (and to you) is what do we make now that is or could be seen as uniquely Australian. I reckon if we answer that question we will have the first idea of what direction we should be going in. From there we can refine, tweak and develop the beer and elivate it to a truly unique Aussie brew.

Australian Sparkling Ale anyone?


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## haysie (4/6/09)

Black Rock Mussel Stout, 
Scrubworm Bitter
Olde Convict Carp Ale
Calicivirus Rabbit Lager


Anythings possible.


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## Wardhog (4/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> The question to me (and to you) is what do we make now that is or could be seen as uniquely Australian.



Does there have to be a gimmick? Can't we just create a good beer with regular ingredients, but Aussie ones?


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## haysie (4/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> Australian Sparkling Ale anyone?



Enjoying as we type. :chug:


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## bum (4/6/09)

Wardhog said:


> Does there have to be a gimmick? Can't we just create a good beer with regular ingredients, but Aussie ones?



Wouldn't that just be making an existing style with locally sourced ingredients?

Sure, there is absolutely no reason that couldn't be a tremendous beer but what makes it uniquely Australian?

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not all that keen on a quondong beer. Cider maybe.


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## haysie (4/6/09)

bum said:


> Don't get me wrong though, I'm not all that keen on a quondong beer. Cider maybe.



If thats the stuff from China, I`ll have a cider as well.


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## Wardhog (4/6/09)

bum said:


> Wouldn't that just be making an existing style with locally sourced ingredients?
> 
> Sure, there is absolutely no reason that couldn't be a tremendous beer but what makes it uniquely Australian?
> 
> Don't get me wrong though, I'm not all that keen on a quondong beer. Cider maybe.



Not an existing style necessarily. Design a beer based on features you want, in a combination that you can't already find.

For me, this would be :

-Medium copper in colour
-Nutty and caramel flavours abound 
-Little to no hop aroma
-Clean and crisp, no yeast flavour
-Medium hop bitterness, low hop flavour

Doesn't sound too exotic a beer, does it? Sounds kinda like a few beers we already know. Well, with some imagination and the characteristics of the distinctly Aussie ingredients, do something that (to my knowledge) hasn't been done before.
-Galaxy as bittering
-POR as flavour hop.

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be all that keen on Roasted Gumnut Lager.


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## Thirsty Boy (4/6/09)

jayse said:


> Really the whole modern microbrewing movement came about from homebrewers for the most part, even sierra nevada was once just a homebrewer in a shed, the way these beer styles came about is more at the heart of my arguement of styles naturally evolving out of known styles being pushed to there limits and incorporating local hop varieties to even the extreme.
> These styles come to be so wide spread they are now considered real world beer styles.
> 
> But there isn't anything doctored about it, such as this thread is, were a bunch of brewers debated it out to try and invent a totally new style ending up what ever group shouts the loudest gets what they think to be accepted and engraved in stone, it just won't ever happen that way.
> ...




Fair go Jayse - people are just tossing an idea about the place - to be honest, you seem to be one of the few who have contributed to this thread, that seemed to have given more than passing consideration to how someone would actively "push" any beer that might get dreamed up towards official acceptance as a style -- sure, other people have thought about it happening, or about targeting a gap in the existing styles - but not many have really proposed any sort of a campaign to actively ram something through. Its a little rough to then disparage people who are actually just throwing around some speculations.

At an rate - I am probably being just as harsh on you as you are on other people, so I guess I also should tone it down. Doesn't mean I'm not going to counter your argument though (many of which I agree with btw)

Styles aren't something that evolved over lengthy periods of time, styles are new - how they come to be "official" isn't exactly a matter of long standing venerable tradition - it a matter of what Charlie Papazian and a few others reckoned when they were defining the styles not all that long ago - Before that, they were just beers from different places. Including a few styles that had either no, or only one or two commercial examples - but which were popular with homebrewers.

As for a unique style needing to in some way evolve..... waiting for stuff to distill out of teh ether is hardly a standard human trait. Identify a need - think of a way to address it - proceed with trying. Its called having ideas - and its not like good ones take all that long to be accepted as Business as Usual.

When I saw the OP of this thread - I thought that we were being asked to apply our brains to the mental exercise of emulating a beer style's "natural evolution" - take into consideration the things that cause beers to evolve - local climate, local ingredients, local tastes, available technology etc etc - and see where the model might take us.

Of course - its already been done - Coopers pale/sparkling, and whether people like it or not, Fosters and Tooheys mega lagers. VB, New etc are all products of exactly that series of local conditions resulting in beers that are (subtly) unique to Australia. Of course, two things that those beers share as a major influence - are that they also need to be commercial commodities and this has also affected their evolution - AND - that most homebrewers (this is who we are talking to remember) dont particularly like them.

So - what were are doing (or at least what I am doing) is engaging in a shared mental exercise to see if we can dream up a few sorts of beer that _could_ have, but didn't follow a path of natural evolution in the local environment - and I think that that includes different beers for the different local environments in Australia (why would Queenslanders develop the same beers as Tasmanians?) and because we don't have them - without the commercial considerations.

I actually think it would be a great theme for a competition - Aussie Beers

Brew a beer - make it good - and justify why its Aussie. Your beer doesn't only need to be a decent drop, it needs to have a good back story as well. And that's what makes a style in my book - a decent drink, a tiny bit of uniqueness (doesn't need much) and a good story. Would saison be as interesting if it was just a style popped out by a few belgian commercial breweries that got popular - what about the Trappist Ales or German kloister beers? Scotch ales without the pressure of English taxes on hops??

15/20 for the beer - 5/20 for the story

The conversation certainly isn't going to hurt anyone by having happened and I'll bet a dollar that it inspires the brewing of a number of good and maybe unique beers.


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## haysie (4/6/09)

Roasted gumnuts you can stix up ur ass, Are they really fermentable?
The caramel, nutty doesnt lend itself too Oi Oi,
2 malts 1 hop , yeast????????? theres the fun? Us aussies struggle for a yeast that indentifies our beer from the next.
You always know when you are sipping an English, always know sipping a belgian "the yeast tells us"

Does it really have to be coopers? Its a hunderecyears old, come on micro`s a new Australian yeast is called for.


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## discoloop (4/6/09)

In my mind, a basic template already exists:
- Australian ale (i.e. Coopers)
- Australian lager (i.e. any Aussie lager from VB to Cascade to Hahn pemium to even Barons lager)

I would say that if any recognised Australian styles were going to emerge they'd form around creative takes on these styles.


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## Tony (4/6/09)

jayse said:


> I think your thinking on the same lines as me now, although I think this thread has two very different sides, those talking about basically inventing a style on the spot one of which has not been brewed before and as lovely  as brewing in your thongs and filtering through some merino wool might be that style isn't gunna take off.
> 
> For this style I would say bitter, amber, pale and even IPA would all be in the same catergory with broad guidelines that covers beers that losely fit american pale and amber plus english bitter and pale but the hop character is more like new zealand and australian varieties such as bsaaz, dsaaz, NS and galaxy etc.
> The style is fairly well balanced, commercial example could/would be to name a few of the top of my head, hargraeves hill ESB, Macs sazzy red, stone and wood draught, brewboys maiden ale, holegate Mt mac, white rabbit, gippsland gold, mildura storm, hop thief, bright ale, wicked elf pale, nirvana and the list is nearly endless and it is broad.
> ...



I did some thinking about this topic today at work.

I do agree with Jayse! Its already there..... yes its still evolving, growing and covers a broad range, but its there.

Gage roads IPA, LCBA, god... there are hundreds of them........ they are aussie adaptations made to suit local waters, ingredients and tastebuds.

I also came to the conclusion today that trying to invent a new style that we can name "X" style is a bit unrealistic. Jayse is correct........ its already there.

I had a look through My promash recipes and found recipes like Aussie IPA and Aussie amber ale, and many more. I had a luagh when i realised i have been brewing this "new style" for years. Taking a beer style and adapting it to Aussie water, malts, hops and most of all..... tastes!

When i brew a ridgy didge IPA or APA or Bitter ect, friends and family like them but i find when i make what i refer to as "knock up beer" its gone before i get some.

Ask Les what he thought of my Aussie pale, brewed with 100% ale malt and hopped all the way with Aussie Cluster. Now there is no BJCP guideline for Aussie ale, the closest being blond ale i guess. Mine was more bitter, hoppier but not too hoppy. It was made for Aussie taste buds and it was a hit.

Ive made stouts with nothing but POR.......... hell the Sheep Shagger that case sydney swappers from a year or so ago would remember well fits. Made with Nothing but NZ hops it fit IPA stars but was much more pale and the flavour was very different to anything english.

This emerging style is more freestyle brewing............ now thats aussie!

given numbers like:

1.048 - 1.065
25 - 60 IBU
8 - 24 EBC

......... you could brew just about anything and could fit most craftbrewed/ microbrewed beers into there somewhere.


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## Bribie G (4/6/09)

Many beer styles developed not from a desire by the brewers to create beers that would be loved and enjoyed by their loyal drinkers, but instead by gross industrial and commercial pressures. For example UK bitters are not centuries old ales passed down lovingly from father to son but are a 20th century invention which arose out of the breweries acquiring huge estates of tied pubs that they bought or more commonly built as 'estate pubs' in the new housing estates that sprang up in the land fit for heroes at the time. Before then, beers such as pale ales would be conditioned at the brewery and sent out to the trade. With their tied houses, breweries sent the beer out young to be cask conditioned in pub cellars. Called 'running beers' they were the forerunners of 'real ale' and divested the breweries of the responsibility of holding huge stocks of maturing beer, and put the responsibility of the pub managers to condition the beer themselves. Shortly therafter the First, then Second World Wars made the use of sugars desirable because of grain shortages caused by the Wars. Most modern UK bitters are a legacy of the above forces.

In Australia the development of the railways, around the same era, signed the death warrant for many small regional breweries who were rapidly underpriced by big breweries such as Carlton who had economies of scale, and the development of refrigeration made possible the production of lager beers that didn't need cask conditioning and could be shipped out to the likes of Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong overnight. So our national 'style' became totally divorced from UK styles and ende dup as chilled lagers by the First World War .. as well as their suitability to hot summer beer drinking. Coopers, being in a bit of a geographical backwater, is a hold-out from the early parts of the 20th century and long may it continue, but it's really a last remaining example of a former style, much as Guinness is a hold-out of the porters that were the national drink in England in the 17th century, but nobody would suggest that stout should be the Unique English style.

I'd still go the Crown (don flame suit)


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## PostModern (4/6/09)

Tony said:


> freestyle brewing............ now thats aussie!



BAM!


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## staggalee (4/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Fair go Jayse - people are just tossing an idea about the place - to be honest, you seem to be one of the few who have contributed to this thread, that seemed to have given more than passing consideration to how someone would actively "push" any beer that might get dreamed up towards official acceptance as a style -- sure, other people have thought about it happening, or about targeting a gap in the existing styles - but not many have really proposed any sort of a campaign to actively ram something through. Its a little rough to then disparage people who are actually just throwing around some speculations.
> 
> At an rate - I am probably being just as harsh on you as you are on other people, so I guess I also should tone it down. Doesn't mean I'm not going to counter your argument though (many of which I agree with btw)
> 
> ...



A dollar?
A speech like that, and you want to back it for one dollar ?
You wouldn`t get a 2nd. hand soapbox for $1.

stagga.


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## haysie (4/6/09)

Fosters! Japan ready, probably Abbotford ready? no
Maybe our knowitall contributor from AHB can steal the recipe.


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## bum (4/6/09)

Tony said:


> This emerging style is more freestyle brewing............ now thats aussie!



I actually like the sound of this. Completely in line of the "she'll be right, mate!" attitude for which we're famous and without being held down by proscriptive (and artificially imposed) guidelines. Maybe it isn't an ingredient that would make an Australian beer definitively Australian but more an attitude towards brewing. Greatly similar to the, much derided (in this thread, but adored on the rest of the board), American classifications of existing styles. Of course this can't really exist (or succeed at any rate) outside of a homebrew/very small scale craftbrew environment.


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## jayse (4/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> The conversation certainly isn't going to hurt anyone by having happened and I'll bet a dollar that it inspires the brewing of a number of good and maybe unique beers.



Yeap your right there and my agenda so to speak isn't the same as most people posting in this thread, I am enjoying the banter about this new invented style but like you said my position is a little bit different too most on the subject such as maybe I am looking at proposing a campaign to include such beer that is already here.

I put some guidelines/discriptors together I'll post in a sec.



Tony said:


> I did some thinking about this topic today at work.
> 
> I do agree with Jayse! Its already there..... yes its still evolving, growing and covers a broad range, but its there.
> 
> ...



I narrowed the style a little bit more then all that in this draft but agree its a broad style.
have a read of this is anyone could be bothered, its just some thoughts on what i think these beers are, feel free to add to it, take from it or just tell me if i am imagining things.

Aroma: Hop aroma moderate to high, and can use any variety of hops although Australain and New Zealand hops are most traditional. Medium-low to medium-high malt aroma, May have a low caramel component (this character will be more subtle to none in paler versions) with soft clean sweetish malt character. low to Medium fruity esters and clean fermentation. Generally diacetyl will be considered a fault. 

Appearance: golden to light amber. Good to very good clarity is ussual but some haze acceptable. Good foam formation and retention. Carbonation is generally medium but may be medium high. 

Flavor: Medium to medium-high bitterness with supporting malt flavors evident. May have and ussually does have a moderately low caramelly malt sweetness. Hop flavor moderately high to high (any variety, although floral, resiny, and/or spicey and fruity australian and new zealand hops are most traditional). Hop bitterness and should be noticeable, but should not totally dominate malt flavors. May have low levels of secondary malt flavors (e.g., wheat lightness in the mouth with soft grain character also may have light toasted malt character) adding complexity. low to medium fruity esters. Medium-dry finish. Generally no diacetyl. Generally a hop flavour driven beer with clean slightly sweetish malt backbone.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body. moderately high carbonation, 

Overall Impression: An average-strength beer in the vain of english and american pale ales with hop influences from australia and new zealand and other new world type varieties, may be a hybrid, lager style examples being somewhat common. The balance may be fairly even between malt and hops. Drinkability is a critical component of the style; emphasis can be in the moderate to aggressive middle and late hopping seen in American ales. A rather broad style that allows for considerable interpretation by the brewer. 

Comments: More evident malt and hop flavors than in a standard Australian pale ale also with more body. Some versions may overlap somewhat from english summer ales to american pale ales, although paler versions will be not quite as bold as others they should still entertain reasonble hop flavours with some soft clean sweetish pale malt. Generally these are the flagship hop driven ales of most craftbrewers both at home and commercially. Less malt and yeast character ussually then english style pale ales.

History: With begingings from english summer ales and american pale ales these beers become popular with the availiblity of new varieties of hops availble fresh and whole grown in new zealand and australia, also to a smaller degree developed through some international hop prices rising and availibilty declining with varieties such as amarillo.

Ingredients: Any pale malts but generally australian, lacks the deep complex character of english floor malted flavours in bitter so english malts should be kept to a minimum, small amounts of munich style malts are not uncommon, crystal malts are very common, may use a touch of choc malt for color adjustment. May use sugar adjuncts but not to the extreme in other australian light bodied industrial beers. New Zealand and Australian hops most typical, although American, European and the more floral english varieties are also being used. Yeast character is low with cool fermentations. 

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.048 1.058 
IBUs: 30 50 FG: 1.010 1.014 
EBC: 10 25 ABV: 4.5 5.5% 

Commercial Examples: Malt Shovel Hop Thief, Steam Exchange Steam Ale, Brewboys Maiden Ale, LC bright ale, Malt Shovel Golden Ale,


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## bum (4/6/09)

Jayse, I really enjoyed reading that. It seems you've put into words ideas that I've been having about the beers I'd like to make without even knowing how to ask the right questions about how I can get there. That probably makes no sense. I went on a little expedition to Uncle Dan's and First choice earlier tonight hunting beers I've never had before. But I do have one or two criticisms, if you'll forgive me.

The first is I can imagine other people reading that and feeling the same as I did but thinking about completely different beers. It seems more a "vibe" than a guideline. I'm not sure this idea is something that can be tied down by a definition but if one is to attempt surely it must take a slightly harder line?

The second is much smaller - is JS Hop Thief a good reference since it only exists as 3 vastly different releases? Although I do agree it fits completely in spirit but the spirit of something is indefinable, right?


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## haysie (4/6/09)

call a comp, no one will enter.
someone make a call?


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## jayse (4/6/09)

bum said:


> Jayse, I really enjoyed reading that. It seems you've put into words ideas that I've been having about the beers I'd like to make without even knowing how to ask the right questions about how I can get there. That probably makes no sense. I went on a little expedition to Uncle Dan's and First choice earlier tonight hunting beers I've never had before. But I do have one or two criticisms, if you'll forgive me.
> 
> The first is I can imagine other people reading that and feeling the same as I did but thinking about completely different beers. It seems more a "vibe" than a guideline. I'm not sure this idea is something that can be tied down by a definition but if one is to attempt surely it must take a slightly harder line?
> 
> The second is much smaller - is JS Hop Thief a good reference since it only exists as 3 vastly different releases? Although I do agree it fits completely in spirit but the spirit of something is indefinable, right?



Lol reminded me of The Castle 'its the vibe of the thing' :lol: 
Glad you enjoyed it and I am getting somewhere.

With the three different hop thiefs I think all three fit perfectly, yes theres difference in each but the style has room for brewer interpretations and as such has some breadth to play with, many styles do have this room to move so to speak.


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## Tony (4/6/09)

Great stuff Jayse............. love the guidelines!

I think back on a lot of the recipes i have looked at in the what are you brewing threads and a lot of them would fit this. 

knock up beers using whats around...... and more so lately, aussie and NZ hops.

Its also good to see people saying they are experimenting with POR and not just flooding everything with cascade and amarillo. 

As you say..... price and availability!

cheers


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## chappo1970 (4/6/09)

Fark me Jayse it took some probing and a little prodding but we finally got it out of ya mate! I love it! I NOW think we are getting somewhere, no? Now tell me this wasn't worth a while discusssion?

Tony I'm so glad you and other have chimed in. It's your experience and knowledge that will carry this from the obscure to reality.

Please lets keep this going in a constructive manner.

Cheers and beers

Chappo


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## Thirsty Boy (4/6/09)

jayse said:


> Yeap your right there and my agenda so to speak isn't the same as most people posting in this thread, I am enjoying the banter about this new invented style but like you said my position is a little bit different too most on the subject such as maybe I am looking at proposing a campaign to include such beer that is already here.
> 
> I put some guidelines/discriptors together I'll post in a sec.
> 
> ...



Nice - so now we get two conversations for the price of one... I like it

I think you have done a pretty damn good job of defining a style - it keeps very much with your notion of a "new world" category - but puts a twist in it to make it a little "Australian"

I reckon that's a great tack to take if the object of the game is actually to fill a gap in the BJCP styles. An overarching style called "New world Beers" that can include variations on the general theme of a pale ale; brewed with reference to local conditions and tastes - any beer that ends up emerging from the pack that proves so popular and distinct that it clearly deserve it. Can be promoted to an individual style definition.

top work.

TB

Haysie - 

Fosters Lager

*Malt *- 100% BB pale malt
*Sugar* - a 50/50 (ish) mixture of sucrose syrups (from Australian cane) and Glucose syrups (although they are mostly maltose) from Australian wheat. You will want 10-15% by weight if you are using dry sugars instead of syrups
*Hops* - either use iso hop made by fosters at the Abbotsford plant from (mostly) superpride; or bitter to around 20 IBUs with POR or superpride. No aroma or flavour additions.
*Yeast *- Fosters uses a propriety yeast developed by them a long time ago specifically to cope with local temperature conditions and the local palate. And of course to meet commercial requirements for speedy fermentations. It isn't a generally available thing. I would use Californian Lager yeast as it displays many of the same properties and its flavour profile isn't vastly different. Better in my book.

Not a beer I am a big fan of - but certainly Aussie by circumstance and design.


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## jayse (4/6/09)

Cheers Tony, Chappo and Thirsty boy,

Yeap enjoyed this thread and to be honest I am not much of a debater of arguements to clearly get my point across but I think put into the style guidelines format I have sumed up my thoughts. I don't want it taken as gospel though simply by being the person who is shouting the loudest.


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## Bribie G (4/6/09)

T.B. that Fosters 'recipe' 

Sounds not unlike the BB Pale / Rice / Superpride/ sugar brew that I made to try and recapture the Carlton Draught that was around when I first arrived in Australia in the 70s. I'll ply Chappo _et al_ with a couple at the case swap and get some third party critique.

I like the sound of the Californian yeast, I made two identical versions with w 34/70 (way Euro with a slight sulphur 'snatch') and Mauri Lager (hmm a bit neutral) so will try the Californian.

Edit:

T.B. we often see the 30% sugar thing bandied about, but what does that actually mean, does it mean that for every 66k of malt grain they use 33k of sugar, or does it mean that 30% of the GRAVITY comes from the sugar, which of course is a totally different thing ?


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## Josh (4/6/09)

That made for great reading Jayse. I think the guideline you posted summed up your argument nicely. While I don't think it was the intention of the OP, I think this might wind up being the direction of the thread.

Sounds like a few ales I've brewed recently. My Rakau/Galaxy Pale Ale didn't last very long in the keg on a cricket tour.

So is there a comp out there willing to have a crack at judging this style? I'd send one away.


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## chappo1970 (4/6/09)

Josh said:


> ...While I don't think it was the intention of the OP, I think this might wind up being the direction of the thread...



Oi! I resemble that remark Josh!


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## Thirsty Boy (4/6/09)

BribieG said:


> T.B. that Fosters 'recipe'
> 
> Sounds not unlike the BB Pale / Rice / Superpride/ sugar brew that I made to try and recapture the Carlton Draught that was around when I first arrived in Australia in the 70s. I'll ply Chappo _et al_ with a couple at the case swap and get some third party critique.
> 
> ...



I dont actually know - the 30% or half the time 50% figures I see bandied about the place seem to have been plucked out of the air at random by people who wouldn't know. The different beers use different proportions of sugars and different mixes of various types of sugars - hell, some of the beers use no sugars at all and are all malt. Its also hard to say for sure because the brewery doesn't use dry sugar - it uses syrups and it brews at high gravity. So when I say use 10-15% by weight of dry sugar - I came up with that because I know the PG, grain bill, kettle volumes and mash efficiency for Fosters, and I basically shoved those figures into pro-mash and added sucrose till it all added up. I make 10-15% by dry weight of cane sugar - to be 15-22% as a percentage of the fermentables. Its not exact by any means.. but it isn't a million miles off either. 

This is a bit OT here so I will leave it at that. If you want any more info shoot me a PM and I will be happy to share anything that I dont think is a desperate company secret.

TB


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## Bribie G (5/6/09)

:icon_offtopic: T.B. no that sounds like a workable sort of figure, I've not been adding more than around 500g to a 'commercial clone' brew and often less, say 300g so that's a good ballpark without ripping the guts out of the body of the beer. The use of the cane sugar is more an acknowledgement of the 'style' of a mainstream brew than an attempt to get alcohol on the cheap othewise I would be doing K n K. And obviously an attempt at something like a premium Cascade would be AG. 
Cheers.


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## Scruffy (5/6/09)

Quick quiz:
England's Unique beer is: 
Germany's Unique beer is:
Belgium's Unique beer is:

any number of facetious remarks like ...warm, hahaha...; ahem. Delivered by an efficient transport infrastructure. Enjoyed by all Belgians. Can't be brewed anywhere else (although in Europe they're introducing some daft laws that say Champagne can only be called Champagne if it comes from Champagne, I digress...)

Speaking as a crass and naive Pom, I think Australia is a very big country with lots of people stuck on different edges all brought up on cold fizzy 'beer'. Delve a little into the regional variation of each of the above countries (OK, you could fit Belgium on a postcard), and then apply the same science to a vast country still growing in it's cultural diversity, maybe ask the same question of Australia's Unique cuisine...
I don't believe for a minute Fosters and the others will continue as we know them over the next few years - Interesting times, Little creatures is now Lion Nathan and I believe Matilda Bay is Fosters (they must be doing something right), I think Blue Tongue is up and coming 'mainstream' (i might be wrong...) 
The revolution has already started, and I think there's a pattern forming... Take the best Ideas from around the world, and make them better...

Beesting (Barossa Valley Brewing, SA)
Flavoursome bottle-fermented ale made with Riverland honey that neatly juggles yeasty notes with hints of orange-laced honey and a lively hop bitterness.

Blonde (St Peters Brewery, Sydney)
Easy-drinking, wheat-based ale that appeals to mainstream tastes; brewer Matt Donelan is clearly more interested in winning over punters than winning awards. 

Bluetongue Pilsner (Bluetongue Brewery, Newcastle)
Citrus-tinged, aromatic hop notes set this apart from more European-influenced pilseners; forget the style guidelines and just enjoy this fine brew.

Bulldog Best Bitter (Wig & Pen Brewery/Tavern, Canberra)
Served on handpump at cellar temperature, this is as fine a session ale as you’ll find – layers of malt, a hint of caramel and a lip-smacking hop bitterness.

Burragorang Bock (Scharer’s Little Brewery, NSW)
Dark, strong and packed with sweet malty flavours (though slightly drier than it once used to be); always better enjoyed on tap.

Gage Roads Pure Malt Lager (Gage Roads Brewing Co, WA)
Full-bodied with bags of chewy malt balanced with a bold bitterness in the style of a northern German lager.

James Squire Porter (Malt Shovel Brewery, Sydney)
This dark brew has become more fruity and assertive of late, still based on a lovely mouthful of espresso, dark chocolate and Horlicks flavour notes. 

Little Creatures Pale Ale (Little Creatures Brewing, WA)
Not for timid palates but hop-heads love the burst of distinctive grapefruit/citrus hop aromatics, rich flavour notes and generously bittered finish. 

Matilda Bay Bohemian Pilsner (Matilda Bay Brewing, WA)
A classic Bohemian style pilsener with layers of luscious malt intertwined with a bristling bitter finish; manages to combine delicate complexity with solid sessionability. 

Moo Brew Pale Ale (Moo Brew, Hobart)
A classy newcomer from Tasmania that nails the US-style pale ale style with upfront grapefruit aromatics and a mouthfilling balance of malt and hops in the palate.

Mountain Goat Hightail Ale (Mountain Goat Brewery, Melbourne)
With an elevated English hop character of late, this cloudy, amber ale is chock full with character, yet straightforward and true to style. 

Paddy’s Amber Ale (Paddy’s Brewery, Sydney)
It’s a fair trek out to the Markets Hotel, Flemington but worth it to sample this house ale on tap; the upfront toffee notes are balanced with just enough bitterness.

Redoak Framboise Froment (Redoak Boutique Beer Caf, Sydney)
Pink beer may not be everyone’s cup of tea but this one’s made from real raspberries and offers a spectacularly fruity introduction to Redoak extensive range of house brews.

Schwartz Bier (Macquarie Hotel, Sydney)
German style black lager with chewy malt initially and pleasant roasty notes, followed by a clean, rounded finish.

Three Sheets (Lord Nelson Brewery Hotel, Sydney)
A fine session ale when it’s on song; hazy, amber-hued beer with solid malt and a well-hopped finish (due to be released in 330ml bottles from late September).

(List plagiarised from bits around the internet)

I'm guessing that rather than being known for a particular style, Australia will be known for brewing some of the best and diverse bevvies on the planet... 

However one monster troll must be tossed off the bridge - From my research, a 50l keg costs about $160 - then the feds skim off about $50 in excise - could you guys run your business (like all of it, not just grains from Ross...) on that...

Carry on, I've had a few...


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## warrenlw63 (5/6/09)

I haven't read through this thoroughly but why don't you blokes come up with a basic set of parameters and make your own interpretations then organise a case-swap of sorts and mutually evaluate your efforts? I've partaken in similar projects with other brewers before and it always proves to be a valuable exercise.

To be honest if you just debate it and don't make and evaluate you're just the same as a bunch of blokes sitting around talking about what you'd do if you won the lottery. We've all had that conversation before. 

If you already plan to do this I retract my idea.  

Warren -


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## KingPython (5/6/09)

Some ideas here are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous, I mean will it taste 'good'? Personally I think majority Pilsner, some wheat, some cane sugar syrup thing, coopers yeast fermented in the mid 20's and some supermarket\shopping centre-healthfood store available Australian spices would be the go. An Australian take on a farmhouse ale, which doesn't have the connotation of a saison as I said earlier.


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## jonocarroll (5/6/09)

Scruffy said:


> although in Europe they're introducing some daft laws that say Champagne can only be called Champagne if it comes from Champagne, I digress...


Sure, if by "introducing" you mean designating Appellation d'Origine Contrle in 1936, created and mandated by French laws in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, though even before that, controlled by virtue of legal protection as part of the Treaty of Madrid (1891). Then, yeah, it's being "introduced". <_< 



Scruffy said:


> Interesting times, Little creatures is now Lion Nathan and I believe Matilda Bay is Fosters (they must be doing something right)


Interesting indeed: Little Creatures is owned by Little World Beverages*,* "a publicly listed company, just over 40% owned by the giant Japanese-controlled beverages company Lion Nathan." ... "The company was launched in November 2000 by several ex-staff and shareholders of the Maitilda Bay Brewing Company after that company was bought by Carlton & United Beverages (CUB)." "CUB is a wholly owned subsidiary of Foster's Group." Any micro making enough money will be gobbled up by the big two sooner or later.

All I see from this thread is recipes for making (albeit, unique) beer with funky local ingredients. I'm not against it, and I'd probably even participate in a local brewing/tasting of such, but that's pretty far removed from 'creating a style' - about as much as a coffee/promite beer is 'creating the style of breakfast beers'.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/6/09)

yeah, you can't be just popping out new styles that easily - next thing you know people will start shoving any old beer into a barrel for a while and demand a new category for wood aged beer......

It doesn't seem that hard really - look in the specialty ales section of the BJCP guidelines and alongside Australian Sparkling Ale and Czech dark lager as proto styles that might get "promoted" to full style status is Stike Alt ... a beer that is brewed by precisely one brewery in the world, has only ever been brewed by that one brewery and they only brew it twice a year....


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## Bizier (5/6/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> wild lime



You can foot the bill for that one Pete.

I think lilly pilly wouldn't go too bad, as it is a refreshing flavour.


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## chappo1970 (5/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> I haven't read through this thoroughly but why don't you blokes come up with a basic set of parameters and make your own interpretations then organise a case-swap of sorts and mutually evaluate your efforts? I've partaken in similar projects with other brewers before and it always proves to be a valuable exercise.
> 
> To be honest if you just debate it and don't make and evaluate you're just the same as a bunch of blokes sitting around talking about what you'd do if you won the lottery. We've all had that conversation before.
> 
> ...



Totally 100% agree with ya Warren. There has been good discussion/debate but no resolution as yet.



Thirsty Boy said:


> yeah, you can't be just popping out new styles that easily - next thing you know people will start shoving any old beer into a barrel for a while and demand a new category for wood aged beer......
> 
> It doesn't seem that hard really - look in the specialty ales section of the BJCP guidelines and alongside Australian Sparkling Ale and Czech dark lager as proto styles that might get "promoted" to full style status is Stike Alt ... a beer that is brewed by precisely one brewery in the world, has only ever been brewed by that one brewery and they only brew it twice a year....



TB funny you should mention this and beat me to the punch. I was reading the AABC style guidelines this morning on the way to work. Category 18 in particular 18.7 Other Speciality is definitely the place to start. It states:

*"This category can also be used as an "incubator" for any minor world beer style (other than Belgiuns) for which there is currently no AABA category. If sufficient interest exists, some of the minor style might be promoted to full styles in the future."

*So there's the answer guys to both problems, no? AABC is the deadline and the comp will be independantly Judged. I'm sure we could stuff the style guideline under the noses of the Judges for their input and interpretation.

Now all we need to do is agree on a style guideline use it to produce our interpretation (recipes) of that guideline, enter them into the comp and let the cards fall where they may. I plan to make it to this AABC so that could be the meeting point for a case swap and cross reference to refine the style even further.

2c FWIW?

CHappo


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## Fourstar (5/6/09)

Good point there Chappo, even if there is not a commercial example that compares from what eventuates, im sure anything is possible.

American Brown ale made it without commercial help so why not a 'uniquely Aussie beer?!?!


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## chappo1970 (5/6/09)

Dead right 4star. American Brown was originated by American Homebrewers. Can't see why we can't have a crack at something simular?


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## Millet Man (5/6/09)

Muggus said:


> Actually on that note, are there any unique Australian grains out there?



I bought some Alpine Rice a while ago, it is a native Australian seed that is similar to rice and gluten free, was going to make a native Australian gluten free beer but never got around to it...maybe it was the fact it cost close to $25 to get 1 kg delivered that put me off.

As others have mentioned, if you want to make a new style of beer that is not in the "guidelines" then do it and enter it as specialty/other and see how it goes - that's what the category is for. If it catches on and becomes popular then it's time to ask the question of it deserving it's own style category.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Mercs Own (5/6/09)

It is interesting to note that probably the foremost influential beer producer/brewer this country has ever had has just opened himself another brewery - White Rabbit, you would think that the beer coming out of there by a damn fine (and good looking brewer) would be working along the lines of being "uniquely Australian"

I havent tried the beer yet but those who have (whom I have spoken to) have expressed disappointment - saying the beer is damn fine but perhaps too close to Little Creatures/Sierra Nevada. So it is not different to what else is going on.

The way way they make/ferment it is certainly a departure to any other brewery operation in Aus.

I look forward to getting down there. Anyone had it?? Is it unique???

As for unique and cane sugar - what is so special about cane sugar????? Yes it is grown in Queensland and has always been used to fill out a beer so as to make a profit for the brewery - it has nothing to do with flavour etc Sausage rolls are unique to Australia - no other country has them, well not since I travelled.

This discussion could go around in circles for decades.....the proof will be in the taste.


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## bum (5/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> Sausage rolls are unique to Australia - no other country has them, well not since I travelled.



I guess you didn't go to Ireland or The Netherlands.


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## chappo1970 (5/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> This discussion could go around in circles for decades.....the proof will be in the taste.



Ypur right it's time for action!


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## Mercs Own (5/6/09)

bum said:


> I guess you didn't go to Ireland or The Netherlands.



Never been to Ireland but I did hang out in the Netherlands for a while in the 80's never saw a sausage roll but they had some lovely chocolates you got from those special smoking shops!


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## Ross (5/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Ypur right it's time for action!




Chappo, your entry into the BABB's Aussie pale ale is due in at next months meeting - a perfect opportunity to put your twist on an aussie style - The whole basis of the comp is to brew the the most drinkable aussie style ale, with no restrictions on interpretation. With the winner seeing his beer on tap at the platform Bar, what more could you ask for :icon_cheers: 

Cheers Ross


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## chappo1970 (5/6/09)

Ross said:


> Chappo, your entry into the BABB's Aussie pale ale is due in at next months meeting - a perfect opportunity to put your twist on an aussie style - The whole basis of the comp is to brew the the most drinkable aussie style ale, with no restrictions on interpretation. With the winner seeing his beer on tap at the platform Bar, what more could you ask for :icon_cheers:
> 
> Cheers Ross



FFS I really need to read things better! I sincerely thought it was traditional pale ale?

Ok I have time and the grain why not?

Cheers Ross

Chappo


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## Kai (5/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> It is interesting to note that probably the foremost influential beer producer/brewer this country has ever had has just opened himself another brewery - White Rabbit, you would think that the beer coming out of there by a damn fine (and good looking brewer) would be working along the lines of being "uniquely Australian"
> 
> I havent tried the beer yet but those who have (whom I have spoken to) have expressed disappointment - saying the beer is damn fine but perhaps too close to Little Creatures/Sierra Nevada. So it is not different to what else is going on.
> 
> ...




Sorry to take this slightly OT, but after the venue opened the direction of the beer changed. What you'll get off tap now is still hoppy but less bitter, much darker and packs a pretty complex specialty malt profile. Thanks for saying the brewers are good looking though


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## Tony (5/6/09)

I recal from a few sydney case swaps ago........ i think it was Jon W... is that him? he made a B Sazz pale ale.

It fit the bill perfectly. It was around the 16 to 18 EBC mark, light on the malt but enough to ballance the hops.

Hops were bold but not APA bold. THey were spicy and prominent but ballanced.

Bitterness was firm and the beer finnished dry and refreshing.

I remember it well because it was an awsome beer and one i would consider as one of my "knock up beers" if i had of brewed it. One that wouldnt have lasted long in the keg.

Im going to have a go at making something in the Aussie Wheat vain this weekend. It will be an out there beer not fitting any style.

Im thinking 60% aussie wheat malt....... pilsner malt (i only have weyerman) some crystal for body and colour. POR to bitter and perhaps some Halertau aroma from NZ..... fresh whole hops in the finnish.

might mash cool and chuck it on some 1469 for some fun.

recipe to come.

cheers


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## Tony (5/6/09)

Ok...... here is my Aussie Wheat ale. I have been planning something like this for a while now and this thread has inspired me.

I have decided to use US-05 for a nice dry finnish...... the crystal malts will add sweetness and body to ballance out the high attenuation.

using a similar hopping schedule to my LCBA mockup which always comes out great with whatever hops you use.

I wanted a kind of american wheat but less hops and less citrus and pine.

should come out malty but dry, hoppy with a spicy floral edge. A bit of malt sweetness to ballance the bitterness and dry malt pressence of all that wheat.

And i just love these NZ hops! So do the people who drink my beers. 



Aussie Wheat Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 52.00 Wort Size (L): 52.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.50
Anticipated OG: 1.050 Plato: 12.50
Anticipated EBC: 13.2
Anticipated IBU: 33.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
57.1 6.00 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4
36.2 3.80 kg. TF Golden Promise Pale Ale Ma UK 1.037 6
3.8 0.40 kg. JWM Caramalt Australia 1.036 50
2.9 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.00 14.4 45 min.
40.00 g. Hallertau Aroma Whole 6.60 11.9 45 min.
20.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.00 3.9 15 min.
20.00 g. Hallertau Aroma Whole 6.60 3.2 15 min.
30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.00 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Hallertau Aroma Whole 6.60 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

US-05 @ 19 deg


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: 

Total Grain kg: 10.50
Total Water Qts: 22.22 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 21.02 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.08
Grain Temp: 18.28 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein rest 5 15 52 51 Infuse 59 21.02 2.00
mash 5 60 65 65 Infuse 99 10.83 3.03


cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (5/6/09)

Mercs Own said:


> It is interesting to note that probably the foremost influential beer producer/brewer this country has ever had has just opened himself another brewery - White Rabbit, you would think that the beer coming out of there by a damn fine (and good looking brewer) would be working along the lines of being "uniquely Australian"
> 
> I havent tried the beer yet but those who have (whom I have spoken to) have expressed disappointment - saying the beer is damn fine but perhaps too close to Little Creatures/Sierra Nevada. So it is not different to what else is going on.
> 
> ...



Sugar Cane might not be uniquely Australian, but if one of the things you are looking for is to make a beer that reflects local ingredients, culture and some influence on the Nations identity - then its a hard one to go past. Especially for the north eastern parts of the country. It has influenced the local ethnic make up, local business and life and even the balance of nature (cane toads) - somewhat significant I say.

And I need to disagree with the whole "always been used to fill out a beer so as to make a profit for the brewery" sentiment. Yes it has - but people seem to think that that's the only reason it is used - its not. It is deliberately used and this is the original reason it was included in Australian beers - for entirely flavour related reasons. The Australian palate wanted lighter and easier to drink beers, that were at their best cold and could be consumed reasonably quickly and in quantity, This isn't some marketing drive by the "big" brewers, not unless it was one that emerged even before the big brewers were big - it is an adaption of recipes to meet the expectations of the local market. Why is it that people think that brewers are somehow unique in their ability to force the public to buy a product that they really don't prefer??

Sugar in Australian beers is there for exactly the same reason it is in Belgian beers - to lighten the body, reduce the maltiness, increase the dryness and make the beer more drinkable. No one bitches and moans about sugar in Duvel - but do precisely the same thing in a beer that isn't as nice - and suddenly the sugar itself is somehow a bad thing.
Yeah - its got economic benefits for the breweries, and I'm guessing that there aren't exactly a bunch of mega brewers out there praying that the local tastes change away from adjunct lagers. But I just cant understand the antipathy that so many home brewers seem to have to the very idea of putting sugar into a beer ... well until they try and make a trippel anyway.

If sugar doesn't have a place in a beer designed to reflect local ingredients - then nothing does.

Mind you this is the other conversation - not the one about actually trying to get something included in the style guidelines.


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## PostModern (5/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Sugar Cane might not be uniquely Australian, but if one of the things you are looking for is to make a beer that reflects local ingredients, culture and some influence on the Nations identity - then its a hard one to go past. Especially for the north eastern parts of the country. It has influenced the local ethnic make up, local business and life and even the balance of nature (cane toads) - somewhat significant I say.
> 
> And I need to disagree with the whole "always been used to fill out a beer so as to make a profit for the brewery" sentiment. Yes it has - but people seem to think that that's the only reason it is used - its not. It is deliberately used and this is the original reason it was included in Australian beers - for entirely flavour related reasons. The Australian palate wanted lighter and easier to drink beers, that were at their best cold and could be consumed reasonably quickly and in quantity, This isn't some marketing drive by the "big" brewers, not unless it was one that emerged even before the big brewers were big - it is an adaption of recipes to meet the expectations of the local market. Why is it that people think that brewers are somehow unique in their ability to force the public to buy a product that they really don't prefer??
> 
> ...



I agree about the sugar. It's in many of my beers, English bitters, IPA's, Belgians, Australian/House Ale. Hell, I even used it once to correct a mashed-too-hot doppelbock. Nothing wrong with sugar in beer, when used well and thoughtfully. Wow, only two lines to say that


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## jayse (5/6/09)

This thread is starting to look like a episode of lost, its all over the place and I have no idea whats going on.
I am just gunna brew a beer out of the arse of grandpas's gardening pants and dry hop it with lamingtons.


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## Adamt (5/6/09)

Don't forget the hair from Skippy's chest.


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## bum (5/6/09)

jayse said:


> This thread is starting to look like a episode of lost, its all over the place and I have no idea whats going on.
> I am just gunna brew a beer out of the arse of grandpas's gardening pants and dry hop it with lamingtons.



Ok. Now I'm confused.

I thought the only thing that was agreed upon was that this is a beast that can't be pinned down as being just one thing?

(And can you mash desiccated coconut?)


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## chappo1970 (5/6/09)

It can be many different things but if we don't have a style guideline to brew to.... we are well? Aimless? The point being made is without a defined quantifiable style we are just well... brewing aimlessly against what? Air.

Chappo :icon_cheers:


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## bum (5/6/09)

Who are you making beer for?

Regardless, I'm not saying the exercise is futile. I'm just saying that it seems to me, as an observer, that the second like most people are on the same page that (shit, how do I avoid a mixed metaphor?) we're at opposite ends of the library again.

(Apologies to fans of metaphor and simile alike)


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## chappo1970 (5/6/09)

bum said:


> Who are you making beer for?




Well for us? Aussie's? 

I reckon Fosters. Tooheys Old and Coopers Pale Ale/Sparkling Ale aren't our measure? that's all.

Chap Chap


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## Bribie G (5/6/09)

Chappo _et al_, on Sunday I'll bring along a couple of brews for tasties, one is my 'Kiwi Gold' that is an Aussie BB malt beer featuring NZ hops and maize, which we grow in abundance. Despite the name it could be within the guidelines as proposed in an earlier post. The other one is a SMASH Aussie Malt, Superpride, Sugaz and rice with a couple of different lager yeasts (2 brews same recipe) which I will present for a taste off of the 2 yeasts. Might give us some ideas.


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## chappo1970 (6/6/09)

BribieG said:


> Chappo _et al_, on Sunday I'll bring along a couple of brews for tasties, one is my 'Kiwi Gold' that is an Aussie BB malt beer featuring NZ hops and maize, which we grow in abundance. Despite the name it could be within the guidelines as proposed in an earlier post. The other one is a SMASH Aussie Malt, Superpride, Sugaz and rice with a couple of different lager yeasts (2 brews same recipe) which I will present for a taste off of the 2 yeasts. Might give us some ideas.




BribieG there is no one better to IMO cultivate my tastebuds... Bring it on!


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## Bizier (6/6/09)

How can you go past sugar cane? 
It was in the Barnsey 'Working Class Man' clip.


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## chappo1970 (6/6/09)

We've done that too death, no?

Come on let's get serious?


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## bum (6/6/09)

Whoa! Chappo is telling people to keep a conversation serious and on topic.

I don't know you anymore, man. You've changed.


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## cdbrown (6/6/09)

Bizier said:


> How can you go past sugar cane?
> It was in the Barnsey 'Working Class Man' clip.



Only coz it was on fire


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## chappo1970 (6/6/09)

bum said:


> Whoa! Chappo is telling people to keep a conversation serious and on topic.
> 
> I don't know you anymore, man. You've changed.


It's all I have left....


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## cdbrown (6/6/09)

bum said:


> Whoa! Chappo is telling people to keep a conversation serious and on topic.
> 
> I don't know you anymore, man. You've changed.



You should see him in the chatroom - he's absolutely no help at all...So he's just the same, not changed at all.

As for the aussie beer - any chance of adding some VB or EB for some old school aussie flavour?


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