# My first yeast starter



## Fraser's BRB (19/6/16)

So on a cruddy rainy day and with fermentation fridges full, I decided it was a perfect opportunity to start up my own little yeast ranch!

Chose 1056 as the first victim so that I can pitch it straight into a pale or golden that I brew all the time thus eliminating any uncertainty on that side of things.

My flask is overly large for this size starter, however my thinking was that this size will suit for later on if I want to step up to a bigger starter for a higher ABV brew.

I've read a number of posts on here about starters (incuding Wolfy's excellent guide) and I've also read Palmer's thoughts on it in _How to Brew. _I've used MrMalty and compared the results to the tables in Palmer's book as well as that shown by the Wyeast pitching calculator, and the final yeast count varies wildly between all sources as well as the count required for any given OG. Do people just take an average or is there a definitive source?

Also, some information I've read says to run the starter at around 22deg whereas Palmer recommends running it at the temp you intend to ferment your beer at (in this instance 18deg). Any ideas on that one?

Finally, is direct light an issue for the starter? I've covered it just in case, wasn't sure on that one though.


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## Curly79 (19/6/16)

You have a yeast forge for your first ever starter!?


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## Fraser's BRB (19/6/16)

Curly79 said:


> You have a yeast forge for your first ever starter!?


I don't mess about 

I identified some time ago that I have this personality fault whereby I will sometimes buy stuff that will do the job, but is not necessarily the best bit of gear available. It will eat away at me for a while, then I'll just buy the shinier thing and I'm out of pocket for both items. The only upside is that now I have identified this issue, I tend to go straight to the "best" piece of shiny gear and cut out the expense of the slightly less shiny but capable piece of interim gear. The only time I can seem to bypass these urges is if the shiny piece of gear is outrageously expensive, hence why my brewrig is so ghetto.


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## Curly79 (19/6/16)

Fair call mate . I'm about to pitch a starter into an oatmeal stout right now. I've only done a few starters in my time but I'm really enjoying it. I've been getting old frozen vials of White Labs and bringing them back to life in my flask sitting by the wood heater. It's so exciting when 48 hrs in you think there's no hope, then all of a sudden they fire up. I think it's is anyway? Simple things amuse simple minds they say[emoji12]


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## Fraser's BRB (19/6/16)

Curly79 said:


> Fair call mate . I'm about to pitch a starter into an oatmeal stout right now. I've only done a few starters in my time but I'm really enjoying it. I've been getting old frozen vials of White Labs and bringing them back to life in my flask sitting by the wood heater. It's so exciting when 48 hrs in you think there's no hope, then all of a sudden they fire up. I think it's is anyway? Simple things amuse simple minds they say[emoji12]


Mine's been spinning for a couple of hours now and there's already activity with co2 forming at the edges and in the whirlpool. Of course the Wyeast packaging date was 29 May, so I'd expect it to be quick.


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## shacked (19/6/16)

Fraser's BRB said:


> I've read a number of posts on here about starters (incuding Wolfy's excellent guide) and I've also read Palmer's thoughts on it in _How to Brew. _I've used MrMalty and compared the results to the tables in Palmer's book as well as that shown by the Wyeast pitching calculator, and the final yeast count varies wildly between all sources as well as the count required for any given OG. Do people just take an average or is there a definitive source?
> 
> Also, some information I've read says to run the starter at around 22deg whereas Palmer recommends running it at the temp you intend to ferment your beer at (in this instance 18deg). Any ideas on that one?
> 
> Finally, is direct light an issue for the starter? I've covered it just in case, wasn't sure on that one though.


Hi Mate,

1) I use Mr. Malty and take the top of the range. So for pitching from slurry, I use thin slurry with the highest non-yeast percentage. In listening to Jamil's podcast 'Brewing with Style', he says that at Heretic they pitch double the recommended yeast quantity. I think within reason, it's probably best to over pitch a little than be under.

2) I do mine at room temp and when done, crash in the fridge overnight, decant the spent wort (leaving around 100 - 200 ml) and let what's left come to pitching temp. 

3) I'd say avoiding UV light would be a good precaution

Yeast is great! We just make sugar, yeast is what turns it into delicious beer.


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## Danscraftbeer (19/6/16)

I love the volcano Krausen you get on the stir plate. Activated yeast pitch is confidence imo.
Starters are basically compulsory to me but that may be considered a disorder these days.
I made covers for my flasks with that silver insulating sheeting. Thow yeasties and the brew should be in the dark.


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## Reman (19/6/16)

I stir plate at room temp, off flavours are not a concern when building yeast starters.

I go 1.5L for ales and 3L for lagers for 20Lish, probably over pitching, but definitely not under.

I always keep a little back in a specimen jar to build up for the next brew.


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## Judanero (19/6/16)

I also use mr malty to get me in the ballpark and then slightly pitch over what it says.

Eg. 2L recommended starter size I'll make up 3L, chill and decant off the supernatant (leaving about 5mL above yeast) give it a swirl and fill a sterilised 60ml specimen/sample jar to go into the fridge for building up next time, pitch the rest of the yeast from the flask into wort once at equal temp.

I build my starters at ambient (inside an esky, stir plate and all), I guess this may help insulate the flask a bit so the starter temp may be a little bit warmer then ambient when you factor in the heat generated from fermentation.

Starter temp the same as ferment temp would be ideal if you are pitching the whole starter contents at "high krausen" but whether it is necessary if you're planning to decant? I doubt it.
It's been a while since I've read through the brewing yeast and fermentation book (I can't remember anything specifically about starting at ferment temp) but think it's preferable to have it slightly warmer than ferment temp. 

3L sounds like an under pitch for a lager Reman (unless it's low strength), mine are always at least 6L for the first gen and even then I think I'm slightly under pitching, I definitely am if I pitch cold.


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## Reman (20/6/16)

I use the Brewers friend pitch rate calc and using the Troester stir plate method a 60ml->1L->3L stepped starter is sufficient for ~25L. Fermented out a 1.069 Bock fine.

Having said that, I agree that over pitching is usually not an issue especially with a lager where you don't want any esters anyway. 

6L is a huuuuge starter though!


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## Judanero (20/6/16)

Reman said:


> I use the Brewers friend pitch rate calc and using the Troester stir plate method a 60ml->1L->3L stepped starter is sufficient for ~25L. Fermented out a 1.069 Bock fine.
> 
> Having said that, I agree that over pitching is usually not an issue especially with a lager where you don't want any esters anyway.
> 
> 6L is a huuuuge starter though!


That's going from a smack pack/vial, when using washed slurry it's still ~ 500 mL of yeast (assuming thin slurry, high non yeast an depending on OG) so to get to that you need a large starter! 

I checked out brewers friend, couldn't find the Troester- only White and Braukaiser methods, both indicate you would definitely be under pitching using the steps you outlined (assuming 1.020/5 P for starter wort).


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## Randai (21/6/16)

Kai Troester is braukaiser. A bloke that did a whole bunch of research on brewing science. Shared his data on
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

Another yeast calculator writer said he couldn't find any data to back up the mr malty calculator, but the braukaiser wiki has all his findings.

Also going to be doing my first stirred starter this weekend using a yeast forge, previous ones were left in a container of work and shaken around a few times.


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## Reman (21/6/16)

Judanero said:


> That's going from a smack pack/vial, when using washed slurry it's still ~ 500 mL of yeast (assuming thin slurry, high non yeast an depending on OG) so to get to that you need a large starter!
> 
> I checked out brewers friend, couldn't find the Troester- only White and Braukaiser methods, both indicate you would definitely be under pitching using the steps you outlined (assuming 1.020/5 P for starter wort).


Yeah, I go 1.045 for my starter wort which may help things along a little  

I think I went even higher for the second step for the Bock so there was some higher gravity conditioning (which may be bollocks)

Randai, good luck with the starter, I began with just shaking and I ended up with about double the slurry once I started stir plating. Some of the best money I spent on brewing bling.


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## Randai (21/6/16)

Thanks mate, look forward to it. Glad to hear others have such great success with it.


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## Fraser's BRB (23/6/16)

So I ended up pitching this starter (WY1056) into the monster crsytal brew posted in What are you Brewing. 

I'd allowed it to ferment out and stored in the fridge to drop the yeast out. Pulled out of the fridge when I started mashing in to warm up, decanted off most of the spent wort, swirled it to get the yeast in suspension, then pitched into 18deg wort about 2 hours later.

12 hours later it hasn't started fermenting. Now, I'm not overly concerned as usually I don't see anything until 24 to 36 hours, I've just seen all these posts saying starters tend to have really short lag times?

What's your average lag time for a starter that's settled?


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## Fraser's BRB (23/6/16)

Just got home from work, mad krausen and bubbling away happily.

This is far more advanced than my dry yeast would have been at this time, so success!


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## Reman (23/6/16)

Yep, it can take some time for the yeast to rouse themselves from the cold.

If you pitch straight from the stir plate aka a vitality starter, you might find it kicks off quicker


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## danestead (23/6/16)

Fraser's BRB said:


> Just got home from work, mad krausen and bubbling away happily.
> 
> This is far more advanced than my dry yeast would have been at this time, so success!


Awesome!

Just remember that a really short lag time isn't a good thing. It's a balance. A lot of important stuff takes place during the so called lag phase. If I remember correctly, yeast will take up the available oxygen within minutes. That's just 1 of the things that goes on.


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## Fraser's BRB (23/6/16)

Shit's getting real tonight, 2L starter to split, 1 for the fridge the other for a second starter to do 2 x 23L brews on Sunday.

WY1968, doing an ESB and maybe a stout, haven't really settled on second brew


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## rude (24/6/16)

Just did a 1098 wyeast september 2015 took a week to blow up at 21c
yeast calc recons 10 billion cells

Its for a 1044 Best Bitter yeast calc recons 189 billion cells

Then 500ml 1037 on the stir plate (home made) 30 odd hours (day & a half) to 47 billion cells
cc ed & decanted

Repitched into 1037 2.5 litres on the stir plate for 230 billion cells

So hopefully 5 times the growth

So thats 40 billion over might decant after cc ing & hold back a bit of slurry to rebuild again for another Pommy style beer
or even an American or English Brown

Mmmm bit hit & miss but thats where Im at


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/16)

Curly79 said:


> You have a yeast forge for your first ever starter!?


 You dont need a yeast forge

You just *need to understand* the basics


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## Yob (24/6/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You dont need a yeast forge
> 
> You just *need to understand* the basics


Why not? They are a bloody handy device, I can run starters in the shed in Vic winter at any temperature I want with these things


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## Fraser's BRB (24/6/16)

I know I don't need a yeast forge, but i also know that I will get a better result with it than without.

My work hours, lack of space, a toddler and general laziness would prevent me getting a great outcome if I had to rely on shaking the starter and no heat.


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## mofox1 (24/6/16)

Dunno, Stu... sure you don't need it, but you do need the appropriate temps to get a healthy starter.

If I had a yeast forge, I wouldn't have to wait for my fermenting fridge to be empty in order to build up a starter for the next batch... I've done the stc controller heat mat in an early before, but it's a lot of mucking around.

Oh yeah, it's only going to get up to 10° here today.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/16)

mofox1 said:


> Oh yeah, it's only going to get up to 10° here today.


Thats how cold it gets here overnight


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## Fraser's BRB (24/6/16)

mofox1 said:


> Dunno, Stu... sure you don't need it, but you do need the appropriate temps to get a healthy starter.
> 
> If I had a yeast forge, I wouldn't have to wait for my fermenting fridge to be empty in order to build up a starter for the next batch... I've done the stc controller heat mat in an early before, but it's a lot of mucking around.
> 
> Oh yeah, it's only going to get up to 10° here today.


The point on the temp control resonates for me also. With the YF I can have it happily spinning away on a corner bench whenever I like (for example last night when I did my second starter) rather than having to juggle space in one of my fermentation fridges which are currently occupied by a Celtic Red, an APA and an American Brown all bubbling away as well as assorted bottled beers.

Ambient temp in the house gets down around 10 overnight here.


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## themonkeysback (24/6/16)

Judanero said:


> That's going from a smack pack/vial, when using washed slurry it's still ~ 500 mL of yeast (assuming thin slurry, high non yeast an depending on OG) so to get to that you need a large starter!
> 
> I checked out brewers friend, couldn't find the Troester- only White and Braukaiser methods, both indicate you would definitely be under pitching using the steps you outlined (assuming 1.020/5 P for starter wort).


Not sure about brewers friend program, but the website does have troester (braukaiser - stirplate) option:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/


Home brew dad calculator is based from kai's findings also. It has an 'overbuild' option for harvesting as well:

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Certainly the braukaiser options offer the possibility of a much smaller pitch, as to whether this is more accurate or not who knows really. My general thoughts are it is much easier to under than overpitch. Generally I would say best just pick one method and stick with it assuming you are happy with the beers it produces.


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## A.B. (7/7/16)

Do you guys pour the whole starter in the wort or chill and separate?


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## shacked (7/7/16)

A.B. said:


> Do you guys pour the whole starter in the wort or chill and separate?


Chill, decant then let rise to roughly pitching temp, then throw in.


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## danestead (7/7/16)

A.B. said:


> Do you guys pour the whole starter in the wort or chill and separate?


It depends.

If the starter size is less than or equal to 5% of your batch size, I pitch the whole lot at high krausen.

If it's greater than 5% of the size, I chill and decant.


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## Fraser's BRB (7/7/16)

As I'm usually brewing more than one beer in a day with different yeasts I tend to do my starters during the week, chill and decant most of the wort, then keep in the fridge for a few days until the weekend when I brew, pour off the remaining liquid, yeast straight into the fermenter.

This week I've just harvested 100B cells to go into the fridge for next time and 290ish B cells for my Dano's Hop Hog of WY1056 American Ale. It will sit in the fridge until I pitch on sat/sun.

Tonight I'm doing a second starter of WY1084 Irish Ale for my Celtic red (same deal pull off 100B cells for the fridge for next time and 290ish B cells for the beer).

Saturday morning I'll start another one of WY1968 London ESB, harvest off 100B again and pitch the remaining straight in on Sunday afternoon.

I've come a long way since my first one several weeks ago.


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## Fraser's BRB (13/8/16)

Fast forward a couple of months and my latest yeast starter throws me a new learning opportunity.

Add a small amount of yeast nutrient as I usually do during a steady boil. BOOM! Wort volcano. 

It spat about half a litre out the top before you could say "holy shit I've got a problem here!". Sigh, more mess to clean in SWMBO's kitchen and I still have to top up the starter and get it boiling again.

Perhaps I dropped the full amount of yeast nutrient in too fast, might add it pre-boil from now on.


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## SBOB (13/8/16)

I did the same thing a couple of starters ago

Brain fart thinking 'I forgot to throw in the yeast nutrient, I'll just throw it in now', not thinking that chucking a 1/2 teaspoon of yeast nutrient in added about 1000 nucleation points for that almost boiling wort to quickly release some of its energy


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## Fraser's BRB (13/8/16)

SBOB said:


> I did the same thing a couple of starters ago
> 
> Brain fart thinking 'I forgot to throw in the yeast nutrient, I'll just throw it in now', not thinking that chucking a 1/2 teaspoon of yeast nutrient in added about 1000 nucleation points for that almost boiling wort to quickly release some of its energy


I knew I wouldn't be Robinson Crusoe on this one.

The more I brew, the more I see that Gordon Strong was right in his writings, that brewing can be viewed as a system with many control points. The control points can be very simple, like when/how to add yeast nutrient to a starter, but forgetting about one or cutting a corner can lead to problems that are hard or impossible to rectify later in the process. 

Edit: When I first read that stuff by Gordon Strong, I felt he was looking at brewing from an overcomplcated perspective. However, as my process has developed and advanced, I've seen that there's a lot more involved than first glance to make top quality beer.


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