# Simplest Cider



## pdilley

Huge cold swing came in over past 5 days. Temp dropped to 12-15 averages so put down simplest recipe I've done.

22 litres ALDI Pure Apple Juice
s-04 yeast
11.25 Brix

25 litre glass demijohm sanitised.
22 litre juice poured cold, splashed through large sanitised funnel for foaming oxygenation.
Yeast water rehydrated and pitched
Bunged and fermentation lock applied.


Following on from USA brew reports to how well they've fermented ciders with S-04

Pitching Montrachet wine yeast (Craft Brewer) instead of S-04 is reported to match near perfect German Apfelwein in taste when using the same simple cold apple juice as only ingridient. However, the yanks add sugar which Im against for sole purpose of high abv. Without sugar adjunct the abv will be close to real German Apfelwein so if you are a purist stick with pure juice.

Alternatives would include pear juice additions.

Ive heard a lot of cross honey to yeast ferments have shown US-05 makes some of nicer tasting meads than wine yeasts so I am preparing to do some small batch meads with 05 and also D-47 once the weekend frees me up to visit the LHBS for purhasing those yeasts.

Keeping mead abv 10-12% range will reduce the aging time, and consumption happen faster. OG would be closer to 1100 when working with 05.

Now just have to make sure SWMBO doesnt turn on the heater and crank it up to 24 during the day. (fingers crossed)

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Verbyla

Sorry for my ignorance but are you saying that you decided to brew a cider as the temperature is currently cold???

Is it best to brew cider at lower temperatures to beer?

I've always done mine around the 18-22 mark but haven't really thought that maybe it wasn't the correct temperature or heard any differently.


----------



## Ivan Other One

Hi Pete,
Having heard of this same recipe from my LHBS, am keen to learn how this turns out,AC%, taste, so please do keep us informed.

Cheers, The Other One


----------



## pdilley

The temperature inside the cider must during the fermentation (peak) will be 4 to 5 degrees higher than ambient. So my fermentation temperature is expected to be around the 18 degree mark on average. (16-20 degrees range). You do not want to be fermenting too low if you want to push the ester output of the British Ale yeast to get added fruitiness that wouldn't normally be in the finished cider. I've seen the simple cider fermented down around 14.4 C to 16 C online so I'm not stressing the temp on the first attempt.

SG for the Hydro guys should be 1046. This should be close to 11.25 Brix reading from the Refractometer.
Potential ABV would be 5.8% but expecting lower at around 4.9% mark if I hit a TG of 1006-1008.

Because it is an all apple juice ferment and due to the refractive nature of the sugar involved versus the compound mix of different sugar mix each of differing refractive properties in beer wort, I'll be using Refractometer exclusively for this fermentation as its a perfect match, although with the total volume of this batch using a hydro is perfectly fine. Degassing samples along the way. (Beer worts will require a few brews of each recipe through the different SRM/Lovibond ranges to calibrate your Refractometer to each compound sugar profile at each range in the SRM scale to determine the correction value to use for future brews to get the most accurate readings.)

Once you get into small batch brewing where 5 litres is your demijohn size you worry about racking (losing ~ 1/2 wine bottle for every racking) or multiple hydro readings (losing ~ 300ml for every reading depending on test tube size).

The Montrachet option, being a wine yeast will ferment out completely dry which is in character for German Apfelwein. I'm not into very dry Apfelwein where by your 3rd glass (serving size is small in Germany) you start to get some apple flavours hinting through at last so I'm doing the recommended S-04 for a more traditional cider flavour. If you know anyone who was ever stationed in Germany, using the Montrachet yeast will bring back memories for them when they take a sip of your Apfelwein.

That said over 10,000+ gallons of straight juice + Montrachet, or Juice + Sugar + Montrachet have been brewed and consumed in the States since the original recipe was posted so its tried and true if you want to give Apfelwein a go. No nutrient additions so sulphur elephant farts have happened in the fermenter with a lot of the Apfelweins brewed as Montrachet has a tendency towards sulphur when stressed as it is with just pure apple juice to feed off of as its rather nutrient barren for yeast on its own without ammendments. Most Apfelwein ends up kegged and carbonated and served on tap.

Pick your desired end result and have at it 

Maybe we should keep a running volume brewed total if everyone replies to this same post.

So to start it off the counters:
*German Apfelwein = 0 total litres brewed by AHB members.*
*Simplest Cider = 22 total litres brewed by AHB members.* (ok i'm cheating a bit as it needs a week or more in the fermenter)

I'll be picking up a lot of the US-05 it looks like this weekend as I have quite a bit of testing to do with it in mead recipes.


----------



## tcraig20

Brewer Pete said:


> No nutrient additions so sulphur elephant farts have happened in the fermenter with a lot of the Apfelweins brewed as Montrachet has a tendency towards sulphur when stressed as it is with just pure apple juice to feed off of as its rather nutrient barren for yeast on its own without ammendments.



Ive never noticed any sulfur from ciders Ive brewed without nutrient. These days I usually put nutrient in as fermentation is _REAALLLY SLOWWW_ without it - one took near 3 months to ferment out. My nutrient is usually just a couple of packs of old kit yeast boiled up for a couple of minutes.


----------



## pdilley

Are you brewing with the Red Star Montrachet wine yeast strain? It does not always produce sulphur for brewers but does on occasion and nutrient additions are always recommended for remediation of sulphur production.

Let me grab the technical blurb on Montrachet:


> Red Star Montrachet (Davis 522), a strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, has been derived from the collection of the University of California. This strain has been widely used in the U.S. since 1963. It is a strong fermenter with good ethanol tolerance, and will readily ferment grape musts and fruit juices to dryness. This strain also has good tolerance to free sulfur dioxide. This strain is recommended for full bodied reds and whites. It is not recommended for grapes that have recently been dusted with sulfur, because of a tendency to produce hydrogen sulfide in the presence of higher concentrations of sulfur compounds. Montrachet is noted for low volatile acidity, good flavor complexity, and intense color.



I have not run Montrachet through ALDI juice so I'm not going to comment on it much until I do.

Fermentation of the German Apfelwein is reported at a 2 to 3 week fermentation and then an additional 2 weeks of very low fermentation lock activity. Some people report rushing it into a keg by 6 weeks but most people report that the Apfelwein will not have cleared by then. For clearing the Apfelwien with Montrachet yeast will appear to not do anything for a minimum of 2 months and then all of a sudden will clear. Other posted reports also mention not to taste it until at least 2 months as it will not taste good. I think this later is related to the high sugar adjunct version they brew over there.

But when waiting for clarity you can not assign a time, so it could be 3 months as you experienced with yours:


> What appears to be the hardest concept for new Apfelwein brewers to grasp is that you can't put a schedule on your brew, you need to give it as much times as it needs. Having said that, when you are waiting for clarity, you are waiting for crystal clear brew. You should be able to hold a newspaper on the other side of the carboy and read the smallest print through it. That is assuming you are using a clear carboy though.



Hopefully these quotes will give some good information for those who chose to go the Apfelwein route with Montrachet yeast.


----------



## tcraig20

Brewer Pete said:


> Are you brewing with the Red Star Montrachet wine yeast strain?



No, sorry I misunderstood.


----------



## pdilley

Not a worry, but something to try next time!

One day I will try the Apfelwein by using Montrachet on ALDI juice. Just not today, want tasty cider that can be consumed quicker and with lower Alc% for now, especially after that Black Rock LHBS kit 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## tcraig20

Brewer Pete said:


> Not a worry, but something to try next time!
> 
> One day I will try the Apfelwein by using Montrachet on ALDI juice. Just not today, want tasty cider that can be consumed quicker and with lower Alc% for now, especially after that Black Rock LHBS kit
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



Yes, I just might do that. I dont mind a bit of sulfur nose to a lager, it might make for an interesting cider!


----------



## Melon

I've had good success with Coles Apple Juice and S-04.

I did a side by side brew test in 5L glass jugs, same juice in both but one with S-04 the other with Champagne yeast. 
I found the Champagne yeast left more apple flavours in the mix.


----------



## hayden

as have i just putting 9 litres of of smart buy apple juice and topping up with another 11 litres of water, and put acider yeast through it the tolerant tempt range is 7-35 degrees so making it bullet proof almost. no extra sugar was quite dry at the end but that can be adjusted as well with a bit of lactose ive heard to sweeten it up.


----------



## pdilley

As Murphy would have it, SWMBO had the heater on and it was 22 on the first day. She set the temporary temp to 14 but left the program mode running which ran the previous owners program of different heat during the day. I corrected that one. Photo of day one shows minor krausen formation. After temperature corrected, no foaming at all, completely disappeared. Day two had slow fermentation lock activity, Day three has faster activity. I'm in no rush.

Melon: You'll have to add the litres of your S-04 brews to the AHB Simplest Cider number tally.

I have a champagne strain here so I can always do a small batch 5 litre fermentation with it once I get some more 5 litre bottles from the LHBS.

Half-fix: That would be a low ABV drink which would be nice, still good enough to back sweeten with fresh juice which lowers the ABV even more which is fine. High ABV isn't the goal, a nice drink is.

Even if the yeast says it has a range 7-35 degrees, try and keep it under 20 as much as you can. Yeast grows best at the high temperatures but excrete all sorts of aweful muck at those temperatures. Keeping it low slows them down considerably and adds a bit of stress but lets you ferment a lot "cleaner". My Black Rock kit I allowed to ferment between 20-25 C and I will never do that again


----------



## Melon

Brewer Pete said:


> Melon: You'll have to add the litres of your S-04 brews to the AHB Simplest Cider number tally.



Add 16 Litres to your totals.


----------



## pdilley

*German Apfelwein = 0 total litres brewed by AHB members.
Simplest Cider = 38 total litres brewed by AHB members.*

I'll have to make some html coded signature block with these counters people can cut and paste into their signatures that link back to this post.


----------



## hayden

the higher ABV is only for what im trying to accomplish. seeing if i can make something to the celtic cider i had gotten once from my relatives. but again personal preference. 

im really not fussed usually on it. the end product tends to be really quite dry, from the yeast used but thats just from ive noticed


----------



## Airgead

Of course, if you really want an absolutely minimal cider you could let the wild yeast do the job...

Plenty of wild yeast on the skin of an apple...


----------



## brettprevans

inspired to do a quick/simple cider for ease sake. 

19L apple/pear juice (no preservitives)
3L water
s-04 or Montrachet (not sure yet)
guessing abv 9%
0.25L pomagranite concentrate
1 vanilla bean

once fermented out (say 6 weeks), I'll keg with the pomagranite juice and vanilla bean.

I figure the dry Montrachet yeast (if I use it) would be countered by the sweet pomagranite concentrate. or I could backsweeten slightly with lactose or similar.

then again the 204 traditional cider flavour may also well compliment the flavour of the pomagranite.

thoughts.


----------



## drsmurto

Brewer Pete said:


> *German Apfelwein = 0 total litres brewed by AHB members.
> Simplest Cider = 38 total litres brewed by AHB members.*
> 
> I'll have to make some html coded signature block with these counters people can cut and paste into their signatures that link back to this post.



Not meaning to sound derogatory Pete but if you were to do a search of AHB you would find that apple juice + yeast has been done _ad infinitum_.

I've been doing this for more than year and got the idea from this very website (Tangent brought a keg along to a brewing get together some time in 2007 - juice + wyeast 4766). Lost count of how many batches i have done - either bought apple juice or juice apples myself plus a yeast.

The poms on Jims Beer Kit have been doing it for a lot longer and refer to it as turbo cider (TC). They have played around with a variety of ale yeasts as well as wine yeasts.

I have used S-04 before and champagne (EC-1118) but found that the Wyeast 4766 allowed the apple flavour to shine through.

Cheers
DrSmurto

edit - spelling


----------



## brettprevans

Carn Smurto, give us ur 2c worth on my piss ant concoction. hmm m 4766 huh. ashame i dont have any

edit: yes its basicly for ladies (or their knickers hehe). but bet your bottom dollar ill be drinking it also


----------



## drsmurto

citymorgue2 said:


> Carn Smurto, give us ur 2c worth on my piss ant concoction. hmm m 4766 huh. ashame i dont have any
> 
> edit: yes its basicly for ladies (or their knickers hehe). but bet your bottom dollar ill be drinking it also



It wont be anywhere near 9%.

Straight apple juice has an OG of 1.046-8 (well, that depends on what sort of apples you use but apple juice from a bottle has as OG of 1.048).

When using the champers yeast FG 1.000 giving an abv of 7.2%.

With Wyeast 4766 - FG 1.010 giving an abv of 5.8%

The only thing i have added to a cider before is some lemon zest and a cinnamon stick. I prefer a straight cider.

Pomegranate concentrate might be interesting


----------



## brettprevans

thx Smurts. good info.

i must have misread the OG of apple juice somewhere. in that case i might just use straight juice no water,. Im not a big cider person and since its for the lady folk i thought id have it a little sweeter and a bit of fruit.


----------



## pdilley

Not a prob Doc, Im one of those that can not get the AHB search to return anything in a way my mind thinks it works so I gave up on it. I get more AHB results going to google.com and searching in their than using the AHB search. I also get most of my brew information from the radio and video podcasts from seppo land. As such I have over 298 shows that I have not listened to and slowly getting to them one by one. Im just a bit out of touch to old posts before my time on AHB.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## discoloop

Had a Coopers kit yeast floating about so pitched a sprinkling of it into a 3 litre Coles Smart Buy apple juice this arvo. I guess this would come under "Simple Cider"! I'm just wondering what sort of flavours I can expect from this experiment? I'm guessing it'll be a pretty unexciting dry cider? Just going to ferment out, bottle and carb up....


----------



## brettprevans

The only thing I havent come across in the 'simpliest' cider experiments is whether people are racking off the yeast cake after a few weeks or leaving the cider on the cake for as many weeks as it takes to clear???


----------



## Supra-Jim

CM2, 

When i did my 'simplest cider' a few months ago. I let it ferment out (approx 2 weeks) then jsut crash chilled the fermenter and straight into a keg. The resulting cider was very clear.

Note I used the Red Star yeast on this batch and wasn't very happy with it. Despite providing nutrients etc, still got a fair bit of sulphur coming off. Next time will be trying with the Wyeast option.

Cheers SJ


----------



## brettprevans

hmmm maybe i just imagined the 'taking ages to clear' thing. maybe im getting mead and cider confused. bugger i probably am! *CM2 slaps forehead*

in that case time to break out the hydrometer and take and SG of my pomaganite cider. if all good, crash chill (to kill of yeast) and backsweeten with pomnagranite syrup and a vanilla bean.

edit: bugger re redstar yeast, i ordered some from Ross thursday. oh well maybe ill mix it with another yeast and see how it goes.


----------



## Supra-Jim

CM2,

Yeah I think you are thinking of mead.

When i was discussing the sulphur smells with John @ G&G, he was pretty critical of the Red Star yeasts. I know its just an opinion and everyone has one, but i won't be using it again.

Cheers SJ


----------



## pdilley

The Red Star Montrachet is used for the German flavour option, the original Apfelwein (aka Ebbelwoi, ppler, Stffsche, Apfelmost, Viez, and Saurer Most) so its not a sweet cider for sure. The original brewer runs three 19L batches concurrently to keep the keg full.

Montrachet also is the king of the elephant farts  But the smell is supposed to last only a few days before dissipating during fermentation and Apfelwein brewers expect to get sulphur and don't think anything of it when they do.

I did mine as noted in the early posts with the S-04 yeast option as I'm not an Apfelwein aficionado yet. Its aging on the yeast cake in a very cold part of the house. I've pretty much got it in set it and forget it mode until one day when I notice its very clear (read fine print through the glass).

With Apfelwein (Saurer most) you should get a tart, sour taste to be true to style. You are supposed to drink 3 glasses of it before passing judgement when starting out for the first time with Apfelwein as by the third the apple flavours come through as your palette begins to adjusts to the style.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

The Red Star Montrachet Apfelwein with the added 900 grams of Dextrose took 1st Place at the 2007 Alamo City Cerveza Fest BJCP sanctioned competition for the Cider and Apple Wine Category and 2nd Place for Best of Show for Meads & Ciders so its true to style but maybe tart until you fatigue the palette a bit.

I'll dig up the time until keg for you if I can get it.

Yeast: Red Star Montrachet
Yeast Starter: None
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: None
Batch Size (Gallons): 5 [19 Litres]
Original Gravity: 1.066
Final Gravity: 0.998
Boiling Time (Minutes): None
Color: Champagne
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): At least 6 weeks at 74 degrees [23.3 degrees C]


GENERAL QUESTIONS

How does it taste?
It ferments quite dry. Some people have tried different yeasts in order to achieve a sweeter taste. It may take you a few glasses to get a feel for the flavor. It is very reminiscent of a sort of apfelwein produced locally in Germany. There really is no comparable product in the United States. It's drier and less sweet than commercial hard ciders.

What is the difference between Apfelwein and hard cider?
Most ciders are a bit sweeter. Ciders and Apfelwein are about 6% abv, but I like the little boost I give it with 2 pounds of Dextrose. It adds no body or flavor and still tastes like Possmann's Apfelwein, only it will kick your butt much quicker.

Is this like Apfelmost / Apfel Korn?
No. Apfel Korn is a german liqeur made from wheat spirits. Apfelmost is spontaneously fermented with fresh-pressed apples or apple juice. It is probably similar, but the results may vary as a result of the spontaneous fermentation. Either way, Apfelmost is most certainly has a lower alcohol content since the initial gravity is not increased by the use of concentrate or corn sugar.

Whats the difference between apple juice and cider?
Cider is made by pressing apples. Juice is then filtered to remove all of the stuff that makes it cloudy.

Can I use apple cider instead?
Sure! You can use whatever you want. However, there is not enough information in this thread to give you any better details as to how it will turn out. I recommend starting a new thread or ask more experienced cider-makers.

What kind of Apple Juice should I use?
Ideally, you want to use 100% natural apple juice with no preservatives. The only acceptable preservative is ascorbic acid, which is a source of vitamin C and does not affect fermentation. Pasteurized juice is preferred, since it will have less bacteria.

How much will this recipe cost me?
5 gallons of Apfelwein can be made for between 20 and 25 dollars.

What else can you do with this recipe?
This makes a great Grog in the winter time. Take a quart in a sauce pan, add some rum, turbinado sugar, and float a cinnamon stick in it and simmer for a while. Serve hot in mugs. It'll warm you right up.


----------



## brettprevans

Brewer Pete said:


> Its aging on the yeast cake in a very cold part of the house. I've pretty much got it in set it and forget it mode until one day when I notice its very clear (read fine print through the glass).
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete


so Pete, your advocating aging on the cake till clear? so long as its in a cool place? no risk of yeast autolysis? (sp) 

I recon my cider is done fermenting but dont think its crystal yet (only been 2 weeks). wondering whetehr I should leave it for a while longer or not before I kill the yeast by chilling it.


----------



## pdilley

citymorgue2 said:


> so Pete, your advocating aging on the cake till clear? so long as its in a cool place? no risk of yeast autolysis? (sp)
> 
> I recon my cider is done fermenting but dont think its crystal yet (only been 2 weeks). wondering whetehr I should leave it for a while longer or not before I kill the yeast by chilling it.



I have no anxiety about leaving it bulk aging for up to a couple months. If I don't get clearing and it gets close to 3 months I'll seriously consider a single racking and then wonder if its worth it since I'll be losing quite a bit of that protective CO2 blanket on top of the cider.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

I forgot about Simplest Cider in all the excitement finishing the fermentation on the 60 litre fermenter of Mead and doing the 4 weeks on the yeast cake experiment with the 30 litre fermenter of Ale. Thats the way it should be 

Simplest Cider has cleared. It has flocculated the bulk of the yeast off and is now at its first clearing stage. Its not enough to read fine print of a newspaper through the glass but its good timing as I can now rack Simplest Cider off into smaller fermentation vessels for long term aging and since the secondaries are all 5L demi's I can always sample from one along the way while leaving the others alone.

Simplest Cider will get even clearer as it ages and will fine-print reading material in no time.

This is what Simplest Cider will look like at this point of the fermentation when it goes from cloudy to its first clearing:





Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

Simple Cider is racked into 5L demis and now keeping JAOs company in the aging closet. Caps are resting on the jars but not sealed. I will see how it goes for a few days before deciding to affix any fermentation locks. Bottom is two boxes full of kit cider.




Brewers prerogative dictates the extra goes to the fridge expressly for purposes of sampling 



Already Simple Cider has all the kit ciders beat. Drinkable straight from the fermenter but will get better with age. Compared to kit ciders, burst of apple aroma and more apple flavour, a tartness not present in kit ciders and the fruitiness impression is better overall.

Finish is dry but no where near as dry as with kit ciders. I'm considering even more clearing and aging then backsweeten with non-fermentable and bottle and use up some champers yeast for priming I have hanging around.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Verbyla

Roughly what would the SG level be of a cider that used 20L of ALDI apple juice with roughly 1kg of sugar be?

Any guesses?

Of the few ciders i've done i've been really lazy in the past and haven't used the hydrometer or haven't recorded the readings i've gotten when i have used it and i was just trying to get a feel of what SG the juice itself would have and the rough effect 1kg of sugar has.


----------



## pdilley

sucrose should contribute 386.5 points/kg/L

Have a go trying to nut out what that reduces down to for 20 litres and add it to the ALDI juice SG on the previous page. If its not obvious or you are having difficulty I'll help.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Verbyla

Nah u just gave me exactly what i was after. 

Thanks for the help mate


----------



## pdilley

I've been taking small glassfuls every 4 days from my sample demijohn of simple cider and I'm impressed at how much it has improved in flavour in this little amount of time. This is going to be one easy drinking nice cider!

Gives me something to drink while waiting on the long aging recipes with higher ABV.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## discoloop

A few weeks ago I tossed about a quarter of a pack of leftover Coopers kit yeast into a 3L bottle of Coles Smart Buy apple juice. Interesting results. I'm carbing up and bottle conditioning now, but the result seemed very drinkable in its flat state straight from the fermenter. The predominant flavour, go figure, tasted like Coles Smart Buy Apple Juice. Just a little drier. Entirely drinkable, but for me its really highlighted that there's a lot of room for interesting experimentation with ciders.

As I don't have capacity to juice fresh apples, my next step will be to find some interesting yeasts to experiment with. My gut feel is that with the right yeast you should be able to produce a decent drop with virtually any apple juice.... Red star could be a good candidate.... or maybe a peppery beligian?


----------



## pdilley

discoloop said:


> A few weeks ago I tossed about a quarter of a pack of leftover Coopers kit yeast into a 3L bottle of Coles Smart Buy apple juice. Interesting results. I'm carbing up and bottle conditioning now, but the result seemed very drinkable in its flat state straight from the fermenter. The predominant flavour, go figure, tasted like Coles Smart Buy Apple Juice. Just a little drier. Entirely drinkable, but for me its really highlighted that there's a lot of room for interesting experimentation with ciders.
> 
> As I don't have capacity to juice fresh apples, my next step will be to find some interesting yeasts to experiment with. My gut feel is that with the right yeast you should be able to produce a decent drop with virtually any apple juice.... Red star could be a good candidate.... or maybe a peppery beligian?




I've separated a post response on various yeasts into The Great Cider Yeast Experiment.

Have a read of that and have at it!


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

Ok I have a hard time getting a good focus with the automatic camera. But I have not been bothered enough to bring my Canon Digital out of the cupboard and do a manual focus with a real SLR camera. So bear with me.

A shot of simplest cider, cleared in the fermenter. Card stock behind it with print. Camera kept focusing on the glass in the front of the fermenter grrr.
I had to convert if from JPEG-2000 (.jp2) to old JPEG as the board does not support the new JPEG format yet  so it got double blurred! in the file conversion. grrr times 2.


With no flash, my hand holding induced blur as well as exposure time is long. Will have to get a proper shot next time.
You'll have to take my word its a lot clearer than the photo shows.

Racking day photo for comparison.



Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Fermented

'Evening!

I've read this thread and the other cider threads a few times and have bitten the bullet.

* Juiced 12 kg of Bilpin apples (sorry - haven't identified the species) yielding 6 litre of juice
* Pasteurised the juice and skimmed the crud off
* Topped up to 24 l with Aldi juice
* Whipped it into a frenzy, pitched S-04

... and it's quietly burping its airlock behind me in a warmer room (20C only). 

So far, so good. 


The only place where I'm having a little trouble is understanding the need to halt fermentation, if it is indeed needed. 

Do I just wait, a la ales etc, until SG is stable?

Do I wait until it drops clear?

Or do I wait until I get an SG that I'm happy with (say 1010-ish), bottle, prime at say 140 g for the batch, cool store it at ~14C, wait a couple of weeks then chill it down to 3C for a few days prior to drinking?

Any hints on the final stages from the perspective of a bottler would be well appreciated. 


Cheers - Fermented.


EDIT: Clarified juice proportions. 

PS - Put the full, dull details on my blog if there is not enough info here about what I did.


----------



## bum

My understanding is that if you're bottle carbing you need to wait for primary to stop just like anything else.

If you're not carbing (just bottling) I guess if you can keep the yeast cold enough to stay asleep then halting fermentation should be ok but you'd wanna be pretty confident of that, IMO. Personally I'd leave it longer to be sure it is fermented out completely (and this will obviously help clarity anyway).

Just out of interest, how much of your volume ended up being juice?

Good luck with it.


----------



## manticle

bum said:


> My understanding is that if you're bottle carbing you need to wait for primary to stop just like anything else.



This is correct. Halting fermentation can only be done if you are kegging. If bottling you will need to sweeten via some other method (eg. lactose or juice backsweetening).


----------



## Fermented

bum said:


> My understanding is that if you're bottle carbing you need to wait for primary to stop just like anything else.


At first look, it seems that way. However, reading more prognostications about 'stuff' has caused me to raise these questions. I can't recall which thread it was in, but someone mentioned FG=0.99x - perhaps a tad hot and dry for what I have in mind. Yes, it could be fixed with some lactose come bottling time but it's nicer to get it right the first time around, imho. 



bum said:


> If you're not carbing (just bottling) I guess if you can keep the yeast cold enough to stay asleep then halting fermentation should be ok but you'd wanna be pretty confident of that, IMO. Personally I'd leave it longer to be sure it is fermented out completely (and this will obviously help clarity anyway).


Am rather keen to carb. I like bubbles.  



bum said:


> Just out of interest, how much of your volume ended up being juice?


12 kg apples yielded 6 litre of juice. They were some pretty decent sized eating apples. I've read somewhere that the juice yield should be in the 40 - 55% range. 

And thank you for the wishes for good luck. 


Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Greg Lawrence

I thought I would give it a crack.

24L of Aldi apple juice
10g Lalvin EC1118 yeast

Its been out in the garage at around 10 deg for 3 days and still no action in the airlock (yes the seal is OK).
I just stirred the yeast in, pehraps I should have rehydrated the yeast 1st.

Any thoughts?


----------



## manticle

Might have been underpitched and maybe better to rehydrate but airlock action is not a reliable indicator of anything. Are there other signs of fermentation - specifically condensation on the lid, foam on the surface or (most importantly) a drop in points between first pitch and now? 
(eg gravity/hydrometer etc measurings). If the gravity has dropped, the yeast is working.


----------



## bum

Fermented said:


> At first look, it seems that way. However, reading more prognostications about 'stuff' has caused me to raise these questions. I can't recall which thread it was in, but someone mentioned FG=0.99x - perhaps a tad hot and dry for what I have in mind. Yes, it could be fixed with some lactose come bottling time but it's nicer to get it right the first time around, imho.



I think the variations you've noticed might come down to yeast selection, rather than people wilfully stopping fermentaion (keggers aside, obviously). Champers yeast and (I think) white wine yeast will both ferment dryer than, say, S-05. Also I don't think yours will ferment down as low as the 0.99x mentioned even with a feroucious yeast - I reckon that one might have been all juice.

Manticle, some UK styles of cider aren't carbonated. Was just leaving open a window for that possiblity.


----------



## Greg Lawrence

No signs at all.
Do you think it would be OK to get some more yeast, rehydrate and pitch again?
Might also try raising the temp a tad.


----------



## manticle

bum said:


> Manticle, some UK styles of cider aren't carbonated. Was just leaving open a window for that possiblity.



Wasn't arguing with you on that chief. Possibilities are good.

I also like windows.


----------



## Fermented

+1 on Manticle's comment, especially on Butters' fave topic - airlocks.  

However, I would guess 10C could be a wee bit low. If you can give it a bit more heat some how, I think it should go a bit better. 

Have a look at this: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/images/library/EC1118_Yeast.pdf - it seems to indicate a warmer ferment than is happening for you right now.

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Tyred

Gregor said:


> I thought I would give it a crack.
> 
> 24L of Aldi apple juice
> 10g Lalvin EC1118 yeast
> 
> Its been out in the garage at around 10 deg for 3 days and still no action in the airlock (yes the seal is OK).
> I just stirred the yeast in, pehraps I should have rehydrated the yeast 1st.
> 
> Any thoughts?



10 degrees is a bit low, but not completely out of range. I think it can work down to 9 degrees but 15 to 25 degrees is regarded as optimum.


----------



## bum

manticle said:


> Might have been underpitched



Pitch rate for that yeast (according to manufacturer) is 25/40g per 100 litres. I think he'll be ok with that.


----------



## manticle

I entirely missed the temp reference. I've had success using a wine yeast with cider at about 14 deg. I haven't used that yeast but as pointed out it might need a warmer ferment than 10 degrees.

@Gregor - if there's been no action at all I'd make a starter over about 24-48 hours. In the meantime, try warming the fermenter. If absolutely no sign and the gravity is still the same in a day or so, hit it with the starter. I'm just taking a stab - it's what I would do in the same situation but more experienced cider makers might have a better suggestion.

Does it still taste like apple juice?


----------



## Greg Lawrence

Thanks fellas
I have it sitting on a steel work bench, so Im going to put a lamp under it controlled with a fridgemate set to 15 deg.
I'll also wrap the fermenter in a yoga mat to insulate it from the overnight lows and see how it goes.


----------



## Fermented

Maybe rouse it by rocking and put it in a nice warm place (say 18C-22C) for a day or so to get it going and then find and 18C-ish place to let it run its course.

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Greg Lawrence

Got it up to about 17 degrees and wrapped the fermenter.
Bubbling away nicely now.
Thanks again for all the helpful advice.

Gregor


----------



## Fourstar

When my APA finsihes up, i might harvest some slurry of American Ale II, wash the yeast and pitch some into 20L of Aldi Apple juice... really tempting!


----------



## Greg Lawrence

10 days on and its down to 1.000
I forgot to take an OG reading. Can anyone help me out here? It was just plain old Aldi apple juice, nothing else.

Gregor


----------



## Steve

I tried a cracker of a cider a couple of weekends ago from Peteoz77. 20 odd litres of apple juuice from coles, bag of dextrose and some yeast I cant remember the name....lalvinl56 or....?? something or other. It was a ripper.!
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Verbyla

I think plain old ALDI juice has an SG of 1.042-1.046


----------



## Greg Lawrence

Verbyla said:


> I think plain old ALDI juice has an SG of 1.042-1.046



Thanks Verbyla


----------



## Phoney

I put on this cider last friday:

12L Apple Juice from ALDI
8L Berri Apple & Pear Juice
3 x packets yeast nutrient
3 x Cinnamon sticks
2 x Granny smith apples quatered
1 x Pink lady apple quatered
300g LDME 
wyeast 4766 pitched in 500ml starter with 50g LDME

OG 1055

Got the tempmate set to 18.5C. 6 days in the bubbling has slowed right down, ill be taking a measurement tonight then another on Saturday and if they're the same ill rack to secondary and stick that in a fridge @ 4C for another 14 days.


The funny thing about 4766 it produces no krausen! Neither in the starter nor the fermenter... I wasnt expecting that...


----------



## Trav

Hi people Trav from Kooinda Boutique Brewery, all this talk of cider i am wondering if it could be an option for a new release at the brewery. I was just wondering if anybody knows of any apple growers in outer melb that well sell bulk amounts, say 500 litres at a time of apple juice suitable for making cider. Do people think it would be a good idea to release such a product? Look fowward to any feedback! :icon_chickcheers: 
Cheers Trav


----------



## Fermented

I was talking about cider with a mate from Alsace (western France, they tend to be more German than French about a lot of things). While he loves cider, as do some pommy mates, they tend to think of it as a summer drink taken cold more than anything else. 

@ Trav: There has been a UK-driven resurgence in ciders globally over the past couple of years. It might be a good bet for you but I wouldn't pin my profits on market research from one source alone. 


The cider I did finished up at around 1010 @ 19C. Tastes pretty good. Minimal sweetness, but a slight bit of astringence from the ascorbic acid in the Aldi juice. Have bottled some with dex for priming and some with a touch of lactose to try for a girly sweet one.


Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Fourstar

Trav said:


> I was just wondering if anybody knows of any apple growers in outer melb that well sell bulk amounts, say 500 litres at a time of apple juice suitable for making cider. Do people think it would be a good idea to release such a product?



Hey Trav, Might not hurt to have a chat with Coldstream brewery... They might be able to give you some contacts. I believe the get their apples/juice for a local supplier in the Yarra Valley.


----------



## Fents

Fourstar said:


> Hey Trav, Might not hurt to have a chat with Coldstream brewery... They might be able to give you some contacts. I believe the get their apples/juice for a local supplier in the Yarra Valley.



No they dont they get it from kellybrook winery in Wonga Park. Coldstream was setup by one of the Kelly brothers i belive.


----------



## Fourstar

Fents said:


> No they dont they get it from kellybrook winery in Wonga Park. Coldstream was setup by one of the Kelly brothers i belive.



Isn't that in the Yarra Valley? h34r:


----------



## saccarin63

Fourstar said:


> Isn't that in the Yarra Valley? h34r:


 correct fresh apples from the yarra valley.


----------



## Fourstar

mickey eyes said:


> correct fresh apples from the yarra valley.



Mickey chimes in to stir the pot! :lol:


----------



## Fents

and here i was thinking i actually knew something fourstar didnt know. ba bow. back to the drawing board.


----------



## T.D.

Fermented said:


> I've read this thread and the other cider threads a few times and have bitten the bullet.
> 
> * Juiced 12 kg of Bilpin apples (sorry - haven't identified the species) yielding 6 litre of juice
> * Pasteurised the juice and skimmed the crud off
> * Topped up to 24 l with Aldi juice
> * Whipped it into a frenzy, pitched S-04



Hi Fermented,

I'm quite interested in doing a cider. But if I did I'd like to try and make it out of fresh apples. You are the only person I can find in this thread who's done anything with fresh apples.

For the apples you juiced yourself, did you cut the core out and peel the skin off? Also, is it necessary to pasturise the juice? They don't pasturise grape juice when making wine, I would have thought it'd be the same for cider.

And one more question... will the clarity of the cider be the same using freshly juiced apples than apple juice from the supermarket? That is, will the cloudy pulp settle out?


----------



## manticle

Trav said:


> Hi people Trav from Kooinda Boutique Brewery, all this talk of cider i am wondering if it could be an option for a new release at the brewery. I was just wondering if anybody knows of any apple growers in outer melb that well sell bulk amounts, say 500 litres at a time of apple juice suitable for making cider. Do people think it would be a good idea to release such a product? Look fowward to any feedback! :icon_chickcheers:
> Cheers Trav



Can't help you with the growing part of it but I'd be happy to help with the purchasing and drinking side of it. I have a couple of non-brewing mates who love cider too.

I think it's a good idea - cider tends to appeal to a lot of people who aren't necessarily beer drinkers (as well as some like myself who are) so it might open up your market. MAke it better than the little creatures one (a bit bland as far as I'm concerned). I love a cider that actually tastes like apples.


----------



## saccarin63

Fents said:


> and here i was thinking i actually knew something fourstar didnt know. ba bow. back to the drawing board.


 you the man ratsruof


----------



## Fermented

T.D. said:


> For the apples you juiced yourself, did you cut the core out and peel the skin off? Also, is it necessary to pasturise the juice? They don't pasturise grape juice when making wine, I would have thought it'd be the same for cider.


Nope - cut 'em, fed 'em into the juicer, dumped the pulp every litre or so. I've explained my reasons for pasteurisation in the link below. There are two schools on the thought and there are some really excellent and long-winded and useful explanations in another thread somewhere around here. I don't recall which ones I read to do the research, but it's worth doing so that you can make a decision that better suits your desired outcome. 



T.D. said:


> And one more question... will the clarity of the cider be the same using freshly juiced apples than apple juice from the supermarket? That is, will the cloudy pulp settle out?


Similar. Have a read over here: http://yeastygoodness.blogspot.com/2009/07...der-tastic.html It's what I did exactly, whether right or wrong. Turned out rather clear at 1.5W and I expect it to floc out further during bottle conditioning. The pics from the job aren't up yet. Will do that later this arvo when I have a moment. 

Lunch over - work time now. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## manticle

T.D. said:


> Hi Fermented,
> 
> I'm quite interested in doing a cider. But if I did I'd like to try and make it out of fresh apples. You are the only person I can find in this thread who's done anything with fresh apples.
> 
> For the apples you juiced yourself, did you cut the core out and peel the skin off? Also, is it necessary to pasturise the juice? They don't pasturise grape juice when making wine, I would have thought it'd be the same for cider.
> 
> And one more question... will the clarity of the cider be the same using freshly juiced apples than apple juice from the supermarket? That is, will the cloudy pulp settle out?



Brewer Pete will have done a few (or many). I've done a couple as well (one with 8 kg apples plus juice + kit and one with an unknown quantiy of apples (yield was about 10 L) + juice plus water)

I'm putting one on either tomorrow or Saturday that will be all apple.

My tips - buy a blend of apples. You need to balance sweet and bitter and acid. 

You do not need to skin the apples. I core them because I'm paranoid about getting any of the bitter seeds in the brew. Take the stickers off too.

You can use campden tablets to kill any microbes but personally I find sulphites and apples to be enemies. Soft (non alcoholic) cider is usually pasteurised but because the yeast action will develop an alcoholic environment you can get away with unpasteurised (in my opinion and experience). I also read that somewhere so it's not just me - came across it when trying to research my last one and I ended up using no campden and no pasteurisation and 20 L later I'm alive and well. It's mainly for non-alcoholic fresh cider as far as I know.

As for clarity - before adding any yeast allow the juice to sit for about 48 hours. A crust will form (a bit like a krausen). Rack to a different fermenter, leaving this crust behind. Add yeast and ferment. I reckon cooler temps are better. I use a wine yeast which can ferment low and I treat it much like a lager - slow cool ferment (probably a touch higher than lager though - about 12 -14). I use lactose to stop it becoming absolutely dry - it's up to you how dry you like and there are various different methods of sweetening and back sweetening. I make a starter so that fermentation kicks off quickly - helps ensure no bugs or wild yeasts get a hold. I think my last starter was just yeast and dex although you could probably try juice.

When fermented (wine yeast gets it to 1000) I cold condition which further helps with clarity. I believe Brewer Pete has some other things he does to get crystal clear cider but they involve more patience than I've so far exhibited.

Some people don't like the dryness of wine or champagne yeast. Preference and experimentation will tell you what you want to use. Age well (months rather than weeks).

You will need to use some yeast nutrient too.


----------



## Phoney

I just checked my gravity, only down to 1020 <_< Now i had a look on the wyeast website, it says for for cider yeast to keep it at 21-24C 

So ive bumped it up to 21C. WHat FG's have you guys achieved with this yeast?


EDIT: Also, it tastes quite sour/tart - is this normal at this stage?


----------



## Fourstar

Fents said:


> and here i was thinking i actually knew something fourstar didnt know. ba bow. back to the drawing board.



Didnt say you where wrong mate, just said mine may also be right (wonga park = yarra valley). Tyou merely pinned the location if its correct. 

So, when are you inviting us all around for another kickass spit thats ready by midnight? :lol:


----------



## T.D.

Thanks Fermented and Manticle. I was up in Orange on the weekend and noticed an apple orchard that had a "self serve" system for buying their apples (presumably like an honesty system) so next time I am up there I might drop in and grab a few kilos. Worth giving it a try I reckon. I like the idea of making a cider from bare-bones ingredients.


----------



## WarmBeer

I've got a really simple cider experiment going at the moment (i.e. 2lt ALDI juice bottle with some US-05 slurry chucked in, yup, that's simple).

I've been wondering about how to stop the yeast from fermenting out 100% of the (fructose/sucrose, I assume) sugars, as I want to be able to produce cider that Mrs. WarmBeer will like, so not too dry.

Am currently thinking I can either freeze the cider temporarily, which will both drop out and kill off any live yeast, or alternately, heat the finished cider to a point that will kill off the live yeast, without evaporating the alcohol.

Has anybody got any prior experience doing either of these? I think the freezing method will be easier, as I know from prior "cold conditioning" experience my fridge can get down low enough.

Cheers,

WarmBeer


----------



## manticle

I don't think freezing kills yeast. Heating it might alter the flavours. Adding lactose at the beginning will add sweetness to the final product. You can also backsweeten but I've not done it. Alternatively, you can use campden (sodium or potassium metabisulphite) to stop fermentation but this is not a method I like.


----------



## Greg Lawrence

I have just kegged my Aldi cider.
It was 24L of Aldi apple juice, Lalvin yeast, and nutrient.
Ended up quite dry, so filled one keg to about 17L and added a 2L bottle of apple juice.
Im pretty happy with the result.
The rest I used to top up an existing keg of aldi cider that was watered down and also had .5kg LDME. Also a good result as the original was too malty.


----------



## pdilley

All good!


Hey just a reminder to keep your ALDI 2L Juice bottles. They make wonderful brewing tools.

I use them to collect yeast trub, do basic yeast washing and then repitch into new wort to make more beer.

I also this time used them in a rush to make a yeast starter. I had a Schfferhofer Hefeweizen that was bottled in Germany. I noticed a milky residue in the bottle after pouring and immediately grabbed from the fridge a 2L ALDI bottle full of left over wort from draining my BIAB bag last time I brewed beer.

First draining from the BIAB bag went back in the brew pot and left over draining after went into ALDI 2L and in the fridge.

Filled the Schfferhofer with a little wort and a little plastic wrap and after a few days it built up enough to pour into the ALDI 2L container.

Just about to start brewing a Heffeweizen in 30 minutes and this is what I'm going to pitch into it even though I have WLP300 already, I just am curious about this yeast and want to give it a go.







Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## manticle

Interested in the results. I think I have some in my fridge although it may be a bit old. I've read that they condition with a lager yeast (don't know how true that is) so keep us informed as to how it turns out.

Threw away 6 ALDI juice bottles last week and now realise that may have been premature. Having said that, the less said about last week's brewing the better.


----------



## pdilley

manticle said:


> Interested in the results. I think I have some in my fridge although it may be a bit old. I've read that they condition with a lager yeast (don't know how true that is) so keep us informed as to how it turns out.
> 
> Threw away 6 ALDI juice bottles last week and now realise that may have been premature. Having said that, the less said about last week's brewing the better.



It already has a heady aroma of bananas and I don't pick up much clove yet so I am pretty sure i've got some German Weizen yeast in there 

I picked the Schfferhofer bottle from the bottle shop because it had the German words "NATURTRB PREMIUM-WEISSBIER" which let me know I'd probably get a good chance of culturing yeast from this bottle.

I love the ALDI bottles, wife uses them cut up for painting and paint cleaners. I use them for brewing.


If I'm in a made rush I'll just fill the bottling fermenter with a little extra water and swish it around to pick up yeast trub and then just pour it straight into the ALDI 2L bottles (got 4 last time!) and put it in the fridge until later when I can wash it.

I am going to bottle today an Amarillo Ale I made with yeast from that last session. Got 4 bottles down to one for pitching.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## manticle

My understanding of good brewing practice is that bottle conditioning should take place with the same yeast so it would make more sense if they've used their original strain.

Schofferhoffer hefe and kristal are both sold at my corner shop and are both quite tasty. Farming yeast from them is an extra incentive.


----------



## pdilley

manticle said:


> My understanding of good brewing practice is that bottle conditioning should take place with the same yeast so it would make more sense if they've used their original strain.
> 
> Schofferhoffer hefe and kristal are both sold at my corner shop and are both quite tasty. Farming yeast from them is an extra incentive.



My WLP300 tube of German Hefeweizen yeast was $14 or so (forgot exact price).
One bottle of Schfferhofer from the local bottle shop is a hell of a lot cheaper! Plus you get a beer to drink!

Win Win Situation 

I will be hopefully putting the WLP300 into a starter and then hopefully by then have some slant tubes to store a library of it so less purchases.
The Schfferhofer, well I guess I could do that as well if it turns out to make a bloody great hefeweizen! Or just keep drinking a bottle from the shop.

Hell, I think its cheaper than a dry sachet of bog standard yeast to drink a Schfferhofer and then brew a beer from it 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Yuma

Im thinking about laying down a small test batch of this (5l Demijohn) with maybe a champagne yeast. Any suggestions? I know im going to lose most of it to sediment etc. which im fine with, but i dont want to completely stuff up what would essentially be a tester batch.


----------



## Airgead

Yuma said:


> Im thinking about laying down a small test batch of this (5l Demijohn) with maybe a champagne yeast. Any suggestions? I know im going to lose most of it to sediment etc. which im fine with, but i dont want to completely stuff up what would essentially be a tester batch.



Yuma

That yeast is going to give you an absolutely dry cider. If that's what you like then go for it but most people seem to like a little residual sweetness left in a cider. Particularly of you use juice with a fair bit of natural acid you need some sweetness to balance it. Your usual shop bought stuff is pretty low acid so if you like a dry cider you should be OK. If you want something sweeter you might want to try a lower attenuating yeast. I think BP posted a bunch of suggestions here. I use the wyeast 4766 cider yeast but BP has had some disappointing results with shop bought juice. I think it really needs proper cider apple juice to give a good result. One of the English ale yeasts fermented quite cool to keep the beery esters down might be a good way to go.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Yuma

Airgead said:


> One of the English ale yeasts fermented quite cool to keep the beery esters down might be a good way to go.




So maybe the S-04 or there abouts?


----------



## manticle

Anyone ever tried a lager yeast in their cider?

If so which and how did it work out?


----------



## Yuma

Brewer Pete said:


> What kind of Apple Juice should I use?
> Ideally, you want to use 100% natural apple juice with no preservatives. The only acceptable preservative is ascorbic acid, which is a source of vitamin C and does not affect fermentation. Pasteurized juice is preferred, since it will have less bacteria.



So, things like nat. flavours and food acids are ok? I tried 2 diff Aldi's and a Woolies and none had 100% apple juice with only Ascorbic acid.


----------



## Fermented

Yuma said:


> So, things like nat. flavours and food acids are ok? I tried 2 diff Aldi's and a Woolies and none had 100% apple juice with only Ascorbic acid.



Ascorbic acid is OK and won't have an effect on fermentation etc. It does tend to add to the tartness a little, but ages out nicely. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Yuma

So by that ill assume the food acid is alright also?


----------



## Melon

Yuma said:


> So maybe the S-04 or there abouts?



Safale S-04 is a great yeast for newbie brewers. In my experience it carbonates in the bottle fairly quickly and for your first couple of brews you just want to drink it as soon as possible.
View attachment Safale_S_04.pdf


However I'd also recommend the Lavlin EC-1118. It takes a bit longer in the bottle to carbonate, but leaves a lot more of the flavour behind.
View attachment Lalvin_EC_1118.pdf


Has anyone else used the Saflager S-23? I did a test batch because it's said to give "fruity esters". What I produced though most ppl said tasted like cheap cask wine.
Good thing there was only 6 bottles.  It was considerably poorer than the other brews I've done with similar wort mixes.

My tastes run to the dry end of the spectrum but to prevent my beverages being overly dry I add about 50g Lactose to a 5L brew.


----------



## Verbyla

Just started my first apple juicing project and realised there was a few basic things i still didn't know  

So here it is:
Just wondering what exactly does pectinase do to apple juice and when should it be added?

ALSO

At what temperature should juice be pasteurised at and how long should the temperaure be held?

I've taken plenty of photos and will let you know how everything is going as soon as i'm done with juicing all 50kgs of the bloody apples!


----------



## Airgead

Verbyla said:


> Just started my first apple juicing project and realised there was a few basic things i still didn't know
> 
> So here it is:
> Just wondering what exactly does pectinase do to apple juice and when should it be added?
> 
> ALSO
> 
> At what temperature should juice be pasteurised at and how long should the temperaure be held?
> 
> I've taken plenty of photos and will let you know how everything is going as soon as i'm done with juicing all 50kgs of the bloody apples!



Pectinaise is a pectic enzyme. It is used to break down the pectins in fruit juice. What they actually do is make sure all the juice is released from the pulp and help the pulp settle so you get a clear end product.

Pasteurisation is hard to do at home. Ideally you hold it at over 70c for 30 mins or so but you then end up with cooked apple flavours. Commercially they flash pasteurise at 95+ under pressure for about 30 secs but you can't do that without specialised kit. If you just want to prevent wild fermentation you can use campden (suplhate) tablets to inhibit the wild yeast.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Fermented

>72C for 3 minutes will do just fine. 

Have done it with a batch of 100% freshly juiced apples (Pink Lady) and there were no adverse effects.

You're only targeting the 80% of nasties that may do injury to you or the cider. The other 20% are of less concern. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Verbyla

Thanks for that guys. 

I don't want sulfur any where near the cider so i think i'll stick to the 3 minutes pasteurisation and just build up a big starter to ensure the yeast overwhelm any other nasties.

I'll also make sure i use the pectinase after i pasteurise all the juice.

How did the 100% pink lady cider turn out Fermented???


----------



## manticle

There's no real need. Pasteurisation is often done to soft ciders but if you are producing ethanol you will drive away most of the bacteria responsible for illness (which I think is mainly e.coli - could be wrong). I've made several apple/juice based ciders and I use neither campden nor pasteurisation.

Personal experience and a link I read only - I have no peer reviewed studies but my stomach says it's all good.


----------



## Fermented

If it's based on all commercial juice, which is normally pasteurised, there is nothing to worry about. Sanitise, pour, pitch, wait, bottle/keg, wait, drink and be merry. 

With apples from an orchard, there is a concern which justifies pasteurisation. Not all the apples have come from the tree. Some are picked up off from the ground. The ground is very often fertilised with chook poo - a top source of salmonella and some other choice pathogens. The ethanol will knock off a good percentage of those, but for the sake of a few minutes at 72C, it's better safe than sorry. It's just risk mitigation. 

Campden tabs? Hmmm - sulphury scented goodness. I give 'em a big miss. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## manticle

Fermented said:


> If it's based on all commercial juice, which is normally pasteurised, there is nothing to worry about. Sanitise, pour, pitch, wait, bottle/keg, wait, drink and be merry.
> 
> With apples from an orchard, there is a concern which justifies pasteurisation. Not all the apples have come from the tree. Some are picked up off from the ground. The ground is very often fertilised with chook poo - a top source of salmonella and some other choice pathogens. The ethanol will knock off a good percentage of those, but for the sake of a few minutes at 72C, it's better safe than sorry. It's just risk mitigation.
> 
> Campden tabs? Hmmm - sulphury scented goodness. I give 'em a big miss.
> 
> Cheers - Fermented.



I don't pasteurise when I use fresh apples either. I understand what you're saying but I would bite into those apples after a quick rinse without issue so juicing and chucking a yeast starter straight on top doesn't worry me. Changing the flavour of the cider with heat does.

I agree 100% on the campden.


----------



## Fermented

Verbyla said:


> Thanks for that guys.
> 
> I don't want sulfur any where near the cider so i think i'll stick to the 3 minutes pasteurisation and just build up a big starter to ensure the yeast overwhelm any other nasties.
> 
> I'll also make sure i use the pectinase after i pasteurise all the juice.
> 
> How did the 100% pink lady cider turn out Fermented???



The Pink Lady turned out rather OK. There is still some aging. I had a few mugs of it straight from the fermenter and it was rather tasty.

A big starter isn't really needed. A single S-04 / S-05 will do just fine. However lately I've just been bottling and adding the next 20-odd litres and going again. I now have one fermenter doing only cider. It takes off quickly, ferments pretty much at a normal pace. The sediment layer needs a stir after the first five litres are in there and then roughly pour in the rest to the desired volume. I find that more ferments over the same cake adds to the character, especially if there have been different varieties of apples or mixes of commercial and fresh used. Not ideal methodology at all, but it's working (wouldn't use it for beer fermentation) to a maximum of five batches over the same yeast. 

Clarity isn't a big issue. It's just time in the bottle and time in the fermenter and it comes out rather nicely. Not commercial clear, but just rather nice. 

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on some Notto and giving it another shot soon. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Fermented

@ manticle: 
I do the juicing skins and all after a quick wash. I might give it a shot, unpasteurised, next time around if the apples look to be top notch rather than the seconds and the like I pick up in Bilpin or at Paddys.

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## manticle

Just did a quick net search to find a couple of reference points for non pasteurisation of hard ciders.

I haven't evaluated the references particularly so it's more of reading interest than a dogmatic 'this is how it is' link.


Book on growing apples
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=N6Dk8E...;q=&f=false

Wikipedia link mentions pateurisation for soft cider but the hard cider link says nothing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider#Pasteurization from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider

Interesting discussion among homebrewing cider makers here: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/320065

And a more scientific article on a possible process of pasteurising hard cider (abstract only unfortunately but I'm sure if you can find the whole article it will be informative): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider):

http://vivo.cornell.edu/individual/vivo/individual16419

And another scientific assessment abstarct on pasteurisation - makes note of different flavours, particularly wherer more heat is applied.

Cheers.


----------



## Fermented

I've read that article at Cornell in the past. There are some others which agree with it or similar. 

I am confident that there is some flavour change after application of heat to the raw juice. It does visibly darken during the heating process. However, I find it's a great opportunity to lift the scum out of the juice and create a purer (visually) product. I photographed it when I did it the first time and have been meaning to add it to my blog but I have been too busy. 

If I had my druthers, I would rather push it through a 5 - 10 micron filter and UV sterilisation rig, but that's dollars I don't want to spend. I think that kind of effective commercial style preparation would add some _quality_ to the product but for every up there's doubtless a down. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## manticle

I find just leaving the juice in the fermenter a couple of days before pitching gets rid of most of the scum. I rack leaving that behind, pitch, ferment low, fine and cold condition and generally get clear cider after 2 weeks in the bottle.

Anyway the more methods you know about the more techniques you have at your disposal I guess. That's half the fun.


----------



## Fermented

Good idea... one more thing to add to my to-do list of experiments!

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## manticle

So the recent two ciders I've made have both been in the bottle a week.

First was around 30 kg of different apples and was intended to be all apple but due to equipment breakdowns and having to use a food processor to juice (I do not reccommend this) I had to top up with around 12 L of ALDI juice.

Fermented with white wine yeast at around 12 degrees, added 500g lactose, racked to secondary, cold conditioned for just over a week then left at ambient temperatures for another week before bottling.

Verdict so far (yes I know cider takes a good time to come to its prime): very little carbonation, fairly clear, lovely crisp apple flavour, quite dry due to the wine yeast but held off bone dry by the lactose and nice discernible apple flavour. No sulphur: easily the best cider I've done.

Second was a kit I've had sitting around for yonks. When I racked the first I thought "why not?" and brewed straight onto the yeast cake, added around 6 L of store bought juice, some dextrose and raw sugar and topped up with water. Same fermenting conditions as above, slightly less cold conditioning time, bottled straight after cc.

Verdict so far: For an unknown reason, this is much more carbonated and gives a beautiful fluffy white head reminiscent of Duvel. I bulk primed both at the same time with the same sugar solution and bottled both simultaneously so the difference is presumably in the brew ingredients themselves. Both stored in the same place too. Much sweeter - presumably due to the malt and aspartame present in the brigalow kit used. Still some apple flavour, presumably due to the juice but version 1 knocks it on the head. Some sulphur which dissipates readily after pouring - maybe due to the slightly less conditioning time (both produced some during fermentation and no sulphites were used in either brew). Better than an average kit but the first shows me how tasty fresh ingredients will make something and there's no way I'd be buying another kit to try and replicate this. It will suffice for drinking while the other one ages a bit. Also I will be buying a good juicer.


----------



## Airgead

manticle said:


> : For an unknown reason, this is much more carbonated and gives a beautiful fluffy white head reminiscent of Duvel.



As you said, the kits use malt. The proteins in malt are what helps a head form and persist.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## manticle

Well seemingly overnight, the non-kit has fluffed up too. Despite such little time, it's tasting good. Must force myself to hang onto a few for proper ageing.


----------



## pdilley

Give a graff a try next time manticle. That has malt and even some hopping to add to the apple juice. Its rather yum and a natural progression as an intermediate style cider up from simple cider.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## manticle

A which?

My main aim is to get to all apple - I just need the equpiment to juice the apples properly but I'm curious to know what you mean.

I intend to use a lager yeast for the next one and once I feel I have nailed (within reason) yeast driven cidermaking I aim to try a Normandy style with no extra yeast.


----------



## pdilley

Graff is a slightly hopped malty cider, a step up from simple cider.

19L batch is as follows:

Pack of US-05 Yeast
225 grams of Crystal 60L
30 grams of Torrified wheat (pregelatinised brewing adjunct) for head retention
15 Litres of Apple Juice
3.8 Litres of Water
450 grams of Amber Dry Malt Extract
450 grams of Light Dry Malt extract
14 grams of your favourite 6% AA Hops. Adjust accordingly. Always err on less not more unless you wish to leave it more than a month to mellow the bitterness

Brewing Steps
Steep the Crystal and Torrified Wheat for 30 minutes in 2.8 litres of 66C water
Sparge in 1 litre of 76C water then toss out the grains
Add Dry Malt Extract and bring to boil
Add Hops and boil 30 minutes

Ferment with US-05 at 18C to 20C

Drinkable right away if kegging but better if you let it age 2 weeks before drinking.
That gives the bottlers a chance to carb up and be the right age at bottle opening time.
Best tasting at 3 week mark.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## manticle

Interesting.

Keen to give winemaking and meadmaking a go at some point too but they're all a bit further down the track. I'll keep graff on the list.


----------



## Fourstar

Brewer Pete said:


> 30 grams of Torrified wheat (pregelatinised brewing adjunct) for head retention



AFAIK, torrified wheat requires conversion from base malt like flaked rice/barley/corn/raw wheat. All you are doing is adding starch to your Graff. In future, I'd probably go for some Carapils to add some dextrins to your Graff if all you are interested in doing is steeping.

Just an idea. I wonder if anyone has gone to the trouble of an AG Graff? Pete, what kind of SG do you usually anticipate to get out of the malt bill?

Cheers!


----------



## Fourstar

Well im just knocking back my 1st attempt at a simple cider and all i can say is; "im never buying swill commerical cider again"!

20L of Aldi apple juice (airated to the clappers)
1 packet of Safale US05
1 tsp of calcium chloride boiled in 500ml of water (thaught it helps for yeast health in beer so i'll give it all the help i can)

OG 1.042
FG 1.004
4.9% ABV

Fermented out in just over a week @ 20deg~.

Pushed it through my filter today for diamond bright cider! Enjoy the cider porn!

Sweet/tart and acdic, clean apple aroma, no fermentation precursors/faults (that i can think of). Finishes dry with a sweet apple flavour in the finish. Very nice indeed.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


----------



## under

Ive done Franko's cider. Not bad. My misses drunk the whole bloody lot.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=398723


----------



## Phoney

Im a big fan of Franko's recipe....and so is the missus!


I put one a slight variation last sunday:

14.4L Apple (6 x 2.4L Berri)
9.6 Apple & Pear (4 x 2.4L Berri)
500g LDME
2 Vanilla beans
4 sticks of cinnamon
4 pink lady apples, quatered & thrown in

White wine yeast...

be interested to see how it turns out


----------



## Scotty

Fourstar, that picture is just cider porn lol. 

Im still waiting for my simple cider (18L apple juice) to clear a bit more in secondary. I used a champagne yeast which i think might have been a mistake as it tastes like it fermented everything it possibly could and im left with a cider that tastes a little sour. I will filter it and if it is still sour im thinking maybe 200g of lactose before kegging.... Any thoughts anyone????


----------



## petesbrew

Put my first cider down just then.

4x 3L Apple Juice
4x 2.4l Berri Apple/Pear Juice
Champagne yeast (what is it...ec-1113?) Can't remember exactly. the pack's in the bin.
og=1042


----------



## c0z

recently put down my simple cider attempt
3x 3l coles apple pear.
4x 3l berri apple juice
Yeast slurry from Coopers Ginger beer kit.


----------



## Franko

under said:


> Ive done Franko's cider. Not bad. My misses drunk the whole bloody lot.
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=398723



lol :lol: 

The exact problem also exists here at my place.

glad to hear it worked out well

Franko


----------



## vykuza

Just put my first cider down.

5L batch (fermenting in a Tap-A-Draft brown PET bottle 6L capacity)
4L Just Juice Apple
1L Happy Farm Cranberry
2g yeast nutrient
US-05 yeast slurry from a Saaz summer ale. It was a bit beery, so expecting a tiny amount of character from it.
Fermenting at 18c

I'm going to make a cinnamon tea and throw that in when fermentation dies off, and go with a Christmassy theme, though I don't expect it will be at it's prime by then.

Anyone ever tried fermenting a cider with a Saison yeast? I'm finishing one up now, and was pondering if throwing a bunch of juice on it would be a good idea... Might be interesting to have those spicy bubblegummy notes with the apple... hrmmm

Wish me luck!


----------



## petesbrew

petesbrew said:


> Put my first cider down just then.
> 
> 4x 3L Apple Juice
> 4x 2.4l Berri Apple/Pear Juice
> Champagne yeast (what is it...ec-1113?) Can't remember exactly. the pack's in the bin.
> og=1042


Took a sample yesterday. OG=1010
I suppose it tastes okay. But it's gone heaps cloudy. The rumpus room smells like cider.


----------



## dgilks

petesbrew said:


> Took a sample yesterday. OG=1010
> I suppose it tastes okay. But it's gone heaps cloudy. The rumpus room smells like cider.



As I understand it, the wine yeasts take a while to clear out. Mine (using Montrachet) is going on 6 weeks now and has cleared out.


----------



## petesbrew

hey lads, what ballpark FG would I expect to get from my cider (a couple of posts above).
Got a 1000 reading last friday.
Cheers
Pete


----------



## Gulpa

With all this excitement about cider, I put one of these down on the weekend to see how it goes. Used US05 slurry from an APA. Interested to see how it turns out.

What kind of differences would you expect to see if you used a real cider yeast?

Cheers
Andrew.


----------



## petesbrew

petesbrew said:


> hey lads, what ballpark FG would I expect to get from my cider (a couple of posts above).
> Got a 1000 reading last friday.
> Cheers
> Pete


Seems to have definitely stopped at 1000. Bottling tonight.
All the best with yours, Andrew


----------



## Fourstar

petesbrew said:


> Seems to have definitely stopped at 1000. Bottling tonight.
> All the best with yours, Andrew



From memory, i had mine finish @ 1.004


----------



## Fents

Gulpa said:


> With all this excitement about cider, I put one of these down on the weekend to see how it goes. Used US05 slurry from an APA. Interested to see how it turns out.
> 
> What kind of differences would you expect to see if you used a real cider yeast?
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew.



basically a wine or champagne yeast will finish lower say 1.005-1.000 where as a beer yeast say us-05 or s-04 will finish higher say 1.005 - 1.015 and it will make the end product sweeter....i dont like dry ciders so i always use us-05 or s-04 if im brewing one....if your kegging it you can basicalloy keg it a whatever gravity you like (within reason), force carb and drink it....with bottles you HAVE to let it ferment right out or else risk loosing an eye with bottle bombs.

edit - just re read and you said cider yeast as in liquid cider yeast, sorry my bad, i've never used one so dont know what it finsh's at or what it tastes like.


----------



## WarmBeer

My little experiment with Aldi juice and some US-05 turned out at 1.001, if i remember right.

4 months on, it's drinkable, but dry. Needs to be sweetened with some fresh apple juice to be enjoyable.

Would prefer a beer...


----------



## Fents

what OG did it start at WB? keg it or bottle it?


----------



## WarmBeer

Fents said:


> what OG did it start at WB? keg it or bottle it?


Hmmmm, good question...

IIRC, it was around about the 1040 mark, so will be marginally higher %alc/vol than a similar gravity beer.

It really was a p1ssy little 3lt Aldi juice that I chucked a little dribble of US-05 slurry into, then only half screwed on the lid. Made 5 stubbies worth, but I figure for a total cost of < $3, it was worth the (minimal) time and effort.

Now, at least, I know my wife doesn't like home-made cider, and I can go back to brewing beer instead :lol:


----------



## vicelore

Iv just started reading this thread and told my mates about it.. ( all big cider drinkers) and we are gonna through down 60L tonight of Aldi juice and S05.. Looking forward to kegging it and giving it a try 

Cheers Vice


----------



## WarmBeer

vicelore said:


> Iv just started reading this thread and told my mates about it.. ( all big cider drinkers) and we are gonna through down 60L tonight of Aldi juice and S05.. Looking forward to kegging it and giving it a try
> 
> Cheers Vice


It's going to be drier than a dead dingo if you just go down that path. You don't want to let the apple juice fully ferment out, as it has higher fermentability than malt, and the end result will be "unpleasant".

Given you're kegging, rather than bottling, you've got a couple of options open to you.
- Let it fully ferment out, then add some lactose to sweeten it. The lactose won't ferment, but will retain some sweetness and body.
- Back-sweeten it with apple juice in the keg. You will need to make sure you keep your kegs cold, otherwise the yeast will rouse back up and ferment out the sugars in the additional apple juice.
- Back sweeten in the glass - easy and flexible
- If you're feeling adventurous, try to "neutralise" the yeast at a specific point during fermentation. I would guess you want to let it ferment out to around 1010-1012, then somehow kill off or remove the yeast. This could be done with a fine filter, a Campden tablet, or if you're game, heat treatment (you would need to bring the cider up to about 70 deg pasteurisation point, not sure if this would affect the alcohol, I'm not a chemist).

Give it a go, let us know how it turns out.


----------



## Fourstar

Batz said:


> Food for thought hey? 4 kegs full of grain, thats at least a sack freight free !
> 
> I'm in on this, need a bag of Galaxy.
> 
> Batz






WarmBeer said:


> It's going to be drier than a dead dingo if you just go down that path. You don't want to let the apple juice fully ferment out, as it has higher fermentability than malt, and the end result will be "unpleasant".



Mine is 'dry'. It finished @ 1.004 with US05 following this method. I filtered my yeast out and popped in the frige in a keg. Its a tasty treat. As its getting older it is getting 'tarter' but i wouldnt say dryer. Its almost lactic zingy but definitely not infected. 

On my next attempt i might filter at my desired ABV 4.2-4.7, transfer to a keg and add a campden table. Leave for a few days at ambient, then purge CO2 to push out excessive sulfur (if present).


----------



## vicelore

Thanks for the replys guys..

4 Star just wondering how you filtered out the yeast ??? 

I think i might go the tablet option sounds the easiest, Ill just taste along the way and kill it when im happy with it..

I do like a Dry cider tho.

Cheers Vice.


----------



## vicelore

Well we put down that cider last night .. All went well except for my mates mucking up the ratio of star san to water.. They used 14mil for 2L or water... when i looked at it it was meant to be 2.8mil per 2L ... Im hoping it will be ok tho as its allot of juice to lose hehe.. 

Safeways didnt know what hit them.. got the juice for 93c per litre.. allot cheaper than aldi at $3.50 per 2L.

Heres some pics from last night.. 

Cheers Vice


----------



## Fourstar

vicelore said:


> Safeways didnt know what hit them.. got the juice for 93c per litre.. allot cheaper than aldi at $3.50 per 2L.



h34r: Did it have preservative in it?



vicelore said:


> 4 Star just wondering how you filtered out the yeast ???



Just used by beerfilter from craftbrewer and soaked the bejeebus out of it with nappisan, changing daily for 3-4 days to get the 'cider taint' from it. Worth the effort for a 7 day turnaround of delicious cider! :beerbang:


----------



## vicelore

Nah 4 star.. it was presertive free.. Good stuff..

Cheers Vice


----------



## Fourstar

vicelore said:


> Nah 4 star.. it was presertive free.. Good stuff..
> 
> Cheers Vice



giddy up. let me know how it turns out. Im thinking of doing an allsorts juice cider soon too. Some from aldi, berri, homebrand, etc and blend them all up. Hopefully get a different flavour profile happening. I might even buy a few L of the 'freshly squeezed' stuff and see how that goes in it. After all, the aldi cider only cost me a grand total of 20 odd bucks. @ around 60 cents a pint you cant go wrong!


----------



## vicelore

Did you get the Aldi for $3.50 per 2L ??

Seems steep.

Cheers Vice


----------



## Fourstar

vicelore said:


> Did you get the Aldi for $3.50 per 2L ??
> 
> Seems steep.
> 
> Cheers Vice



Well from memory it cost $18.90 and i had 20L of cider so $1.89 each!


----------



## discoloop

I'm about to make up a small batch of simplest using nothing but Home Brand apple juice and a small starter of recultured Coopers yeast. Anyone tried this yeast in a cider before? I reckon the fruity notes would work really well. Hopefully it won't attenuate down too far. I'm hoping it'll end up around 1.005.

I'm just doing a small batch - I'll simply dump the yeast into the 3L juice bottle.


----------



## phinnsfotos

From what I've read here. You should probably add a little yeast nutrients when you pitch straight into a juice bottle. I'm not sure if this is a dry yeast only thing though. I pitched about 1gm of US05 into two litres of no-name apple juice and it all worked, but the gas has a definite egg smell. I've left it in the fridge for a little while and I'll see if it settles out.


----------



## vicelore

I used a table spoon of nutregent in mine with 2 packs of US05.. really hope i dont get a egg flavour.. 

Will let you guys know down the track..

My SG was 1.043 so im gonna check if its moved tonight 

Cheers Vice


----------



## discoloop

> From what I've read here. You should probably add a little yeast nutrients when you pitch straight into a juice bottle. I'm not sure if this is a dry yeast only thing though



I have dumped about a third of an old kit yeast (Coopers) into a juice bottle before and had good results. The cider was nice and definitely not too dry. I'm kind of thinking the lack of nutrients helps the yeast to peter out sooner resulting in a slightly sweeter brew. Had no problems carbing either, although I did condition for about six weeks before drinking.

Regarding using the Coopers reculturing, I'm sure a little of the malt extract used to build up the starter will make it into the juice bottle and will provide a bit of yeasty-food.


----------



## petesbrew

Bottled mine on saturday night. It's cleared out beautifully, and I'll be hanging to try it.


----------



## vicelore

Hey Guys.

Well my Cider is deffently on its way.. hit 1.021sg last night and im hoping will be around 1.005 by friday for a kegging and weekend sesh..

Just wondering when i should be getting the clearing of the cider. its very cloudy atm. will this happen when its chilled in the keg or in the final stages of fermentation.

Cheers Vice


----------



## petesbrew

vicelore said:


> Hey Guys.
> 
> Well my Cider is deffently on its way.. hit 1.021sg last night and im hoping will be around 1.005 by friday for a kegging and weekend sesh..
> 
> Just wondering when i should be getting the clearing of the cider. its very cloudy atm. will this happen when its chilled in the keg or in the final stages of fermentation.
> 
> Cheers Vice


Funny, mine was really cloudy on hydro sampling, but once I started bottling them they were Extremely clear. That was on about 2-3 weeks in the fermenter. I should've run some off the tap before my sample, I think.


----------



## cdbrown

Just did a second batch of the cider as it seemed to be enjoyed by a few people. 6x2.4L Berri Apple, 2x2.4L Berri Apple/Pear, 200g LDME, 2tspn yeast nutrient and a 1.5L starter of wyeast 4766 cider. Was 1.044 which i thought was a little low. Need to take a sample of it tonight to see how it's travelling. Once done I'll chill it for a few days, transfer onto some gelatine and then keg.


----------



## Screwtop

Preparing for XMAS Day here, attempted a Cheeky Vimto Clone on Mon.

20L of no preservative Apple Juice

Couldn't find Vimto, so

2.4L no preservative Grape Juice, so it's now a Cheeky Grape :lol:

Recipe called for 200g of sugar but I dropped it, want to see how this juice ferments out before adding sucrose.

OG 1.043

Fermenting ATM with S-04 current grav 1.021


----------



## thanme

Sounds awesome Screwy!!

My first simple cider (half apple/half apple pear then put an extra bottle of apple juice in the keg) was a real hit with the missus, and I'd like to start exploring different fruits now


----------



## daryl5412

7 x 3 litre bottles of coles apple juice ( but only got charged for 6, bonus!!! )
Nottingham ale yeast
Bung all in fermenter and let it go for 4 weeks, at ambient. 18 - 30 deg C
Great semi-dry cider.

What may be of interest is this yeast actually through a krousen, which suprised me..

Finished at about 1010


----------



## petesbrew

petesbrew said:


> Put my first cider down just then.
> 
> 4x 3L Apple Juice
> 4x 2.4l Berri Apple/Pear Juice
> Champagne yeast (what is it...ec-1113?) Can't remember exactly. the pack's in the bin.
> og=1042
> fg=1002


Tasted the first one last night. It's only 1.5 weeks in the bottle, and it was warm so I added some ice cubes, so let's not take this tasting as gospel, okay?
Tastes a bit thin, medium sweetness. SWMBO had a try, said the pear was very noticable, but nice. Overall it's quite nice and quaffable, but for future ciders I'll drop the pear back a fair bit.
Will crack a few open over Christmas hols, but I'll keep half the batch for a couple of months to see how it develops.


----------



## Gulpa

petesbrew said:


> Tasted the first one last night. It's only 1.5 weeks in the bottle, and it was warm so I added some ice cubes, so let's not take this tasting as gospel, okay?
> Tastes a bit thin, medium sweetness. SWMBO had a try, said the pear was very noticable, but nice. Overall it's quite nice and quaffable, but for future ciders I'll drop the pear back a fair bit.
> Will crack a few open over Christmas hols, but I'll keep half the batch for a couple of months to see how it develops.



Hi Pete,

Did you sweeten when bottling? I need to bottle mine, but it tastes quite sharp. I guess the carb will lessen this but just interested to know if sweetening is necessary.

Thanks
Andrew.


----------



## Screwtop

Screwtop said:


> Preparing for XMAS Day here, attempted a Cheeky Vimto Clone on Mon.
> 
> 20L of no preservative Apple Juice
> 
> Couldn't find Vimto, so
> 
> 2.4L no preservative Grape Juice, so it's now a Cheeky Grape :lol:
> 
> Recipe called for 200g of sugar but I dropped it, want to see how this juice ferments out before adding sucrose.
> 
> OG 1.043
> 
> Fermenting ATM with S-04 current grav 1.021




Good thing I didn't add sugar, it's now at 1.004, should have pulled it up at about 1.012 with some Pottasium Sorbate, might have to add something non fermentable to sweeten it a little. Next time I'll pull it up, wanted a low ABV cider for XMAS day.

Screwy


----------



## petesbrew

Gulpa said:


> Hi Pete,
> 
> Did you sweeten when bottling? I need to bottle mine, but it tastes quite sharp. I guess the carb will lessen this but just interested to know if sweetening is necessary.
> 
> Thanks
> Andrew.


No I just primed with Dextrose. 1st cider ever, so I wasn't sure about how to go about it. I just kept it simple. The pear has given it the sweet edge, as I've read.


----------



## vicelore

Well mines down at 1.010 atm making it 4.3% down from 1.043, got it down to 5 Deg to stop the fementation and am gonna keg it tonight. 

Planning on keeping it fairly cold to stop any further fementation.

Whats your guys thaughts on doing this ??

Cheers Vice


----------



## drsmurto

vicelore said:


> Well mines down at 1.010 atm making it 4.3% down from 1.043, got it down to 5 Deg to stop the fementation and am gonna keg it tonight.
> 
> Planning on keeping it fairly cold to stop any further fementation.
> 
> Whats your guys thaughts on doing this ??
> 
> Cheers Vice



I suspect it will still ferment out even at the lower temp albeit at a slower rate.

If you want it to stay at 1.010 i would be adding potassium sorbate (or metabisulphite) to kill the yeast - not that i have done this but from my reading this _should_ put a halt to fermentation.


----------



## vicelore

So me and the my mate got it on tap tonight.. think we are stuffing something up with the force carbing as it seems pretty flatt. and didnt get the drop in presure on the reg that the instructions described but yea .. pretty good for a 1st attempt.

we are gonna back sweeten with either cherry or pear juice tommorow with the 1/4 of a empty keg we now have 

Cheers Vice


----------



## petesbrew

Just gave the workmates a sample of mine then. Thumbs up. Looking forward to having this with Lunch on Christmas day.


----------



## sirotilc

Tried the first of my 'natural' coles Apple Juice and S04 cider tonight. Left it in 5L demijohns for about 2 months - I could still see fermentation. I ended up bottling last week as SWMBO was back in the country today. I really liked it - tart, appley - and with an interesting aftertaste that reminds me of a good champagne. Has anyone else tasted that particular aftertaste if they leave their cider on lees for that time?


----------



## bum

Screwtop said:


> Good thing I didn't add sugar, it's now at 1.004, should have pulled it up at about 1.012 with some Pottasium Sorbate, might have to add something non fermentable to sweeten it a little. Next time I'll pull it up, wanted a low ABV cider for XMAS day.



Add apple juice on serving (or in the refrigerated keg). This will cut back the alc% and add some sweetness without detracting too much from the cidery qualities.


----------



## pwarren

Add some more to the total 

23L of Apfelwein. 23L Aldi apple juice, 1Kg Dextrose, champagne yeast from brew your own at home.

My OG was 1092. It's been bubbling vigorously for a week at about 22C, I'm yet to invest in a fermenting fridge, but with the heat this summer, and how cold I know my brewspace gets, I probably will fairly soon, Chest freezer + Tempmate ftw!


----------



## opposition

As well as me....

Just put this down.

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
0.15 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 100.00 % 
2.40 l Apple/Pear Juice (Primary 3.0 weeks) Misc 
18.00 l Apple Juice (Primary 3.0 weeks) Misc 
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 (Fermentis #US-05) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 4.54 kg
----------------------------


Notes:
------
Wooloworths Home Brand Apple Juice - 18L
Berri Apple & Pear Juice - 4.8L
150gm Light Dried Malt
6gms Yeast Nutrient
US-05
Ferment at 19C until FG 1008-1010

Looking forward to this.

Dean.


----------



## 431neb

What a popular thread. Good one Pete. Thought I would share my experience thus-far.
2 15L Square cubes from Bunnings ( they fit in my esky).16 L Aldi apple juice2L Aldi cranberry juice.2L Aldi apple and black currant.Coopers leftover yeast. Ale yeast I suppose.
No nutrient.
Forgot the gravity so have assumed about 1.045 from my reading.Pitched my yeast starter after mixing and splitting the mix between the two cubes at 10L each.
Both formed a greasy looking pastel purple krausen. Weird after beer. This is my first "cider".
After 6 days the krausen started to drop away.
I should note her that the temp of the wort(?) was maintained at about 16 to 18 degrees after pitching into room temp juice.
Yesterday I siphoned(no taps on these suckers or hey don't fit into esky) one cube into the original Aldi bottles. The hydro reading was 1.016. It's sweet and tastes good, cloudy but clearing I think. Tat will put 'em at about 4.5% I think.
I'm leaving the bottles at ambient temps to carb a little then I'll store in the fridge. I also capped some in stubbies with a carbonation drop each and I'll keep a very close eye on them and refrigerate as soon as they reach a level I'm happy with.

I'm not going to store any of these they are for quaffing.
10 L remains in a cube to clear some more. Maybe do a dry cider carbonate and backsweeten if needed.
It's clear that this will be a workable drink for Summer.
There you have it . Very rough and ready but maybe enough to help others decide what to do.


----------



## 431neb

431neb said:


> What a popular thread. Good one Pete. Thought I would share my experience thus-far.
> 2 15L Square cubes from Bunnings ( they fit in my esky).16 L Aldi apple juice2L Aldi cranberry juice.2L Aldi apple and black currant.Coopers leftover yeast. Ale yeast I suppose.
> No nutrient.
> Forgot the gravity so have assumed about 1.045 from my reading.Pitched my yeast starter after mixing and splitting the mix between the two cubes at 10L each.
> Both formed a greasy looking pastel purple krausen. Weird after beer. This is my first "cider".
> After 6 days the krausen started to drop away.
> I should note her that the temp of the wort(?) was maintained at about 16 to 18 degrees after pitching into room temp juice.
> Yesterday I siphoned(no taps on these suckers or hey don't fit into esky) one cube into the original Aldi bottles. The hydro reading was 1.016. It's sweet and tastes good, cloudy but clearing I think. Tat will put 'em at about 4.5% I think.
> I'm leaving the bottles at ambient temps to carb a little then I'll store in the fridge. I also capped some in stubbies with a carbonation drop each and I'll keep a very close eye on them and refrigerate as soon as they reach a level I'm happy with.
> 
> I'm not going to store any of these they are for quaffing.
> 10 L remains in a cube to clear some more. Maybe do a dry cider carbonate and backsweeten if needed.
> It's clear that this will be a workable drink for Summer.
> There you have it . Very rough and ready but maybe enough to help others decide what to do.




Update. Bottled 10 liters in the original bottles with no sugar and lo and behold they carbed enough to be a very nice drink. I bottled the other ten litres after racking previously and it's carbing slowly but I'm very pleased. They will be beutifully clear, with some residual sweetness and perfectly carbed I reckon. Will update again when testing resumes.


----------



## drunkenmonkey

started my first cider today, used a brigalow apple cider kit, seeing as the general consensus seems to be that brigalow kits suck i figured if i mess it up it wont matter as much, so i swapped the 14L of water for 5L of berri apple/pear and 9L of berri apple giving an OG of 1.076 now to wait


----------



## bum

What yeast did you use, drunkenmonkey? You're looking at an abv in the range that is known to kill most yeast. Depending on yeast choice and health, you may be looking at a brew that won't reach FG (might be something you're happy with) and won't carb in the bottle (might be something you're less happy with).

The above assumes your very high OG reading is correct - which looks likely if you have replaced all of the water with juice.


----------



## drunkenmonkey

what ever yeast brigalow put in the kit is what was used, if the yeast dies off leaving it sweet the ladies will be happy and i wont be to fussed, if it survives and comes out at the 9-10% mark we definately will be having a happy birthday party for my friend's 40th in feb.

as for carbonation problems from what i've seen from looking around the forums theres plenty of folks with nifty tips and tricks that might have a variety of suggestions on what to try.

and as i said before im not expecting much due to the kit brand so it'll be a learning experience at the least, plus it gives me something to mess with while my meads are bubbling away


----------



## Tahoose

Read this thread a few weeks ago and found it very informative, have put together one of the recipes found here and will see how it is in a few weeks.

Here's a big BUMP

The recipe was 
12 Ltrs Aldi apple juice
8 Ltrs woolworths apple and pear 
300 LDM + (700 ml water)
Wyeast 4766 cider 
OG 1047


----------



## Linz

I had a go at cider for the first time after being inspired by Frankos Apple and pear cider....and been meaning to do it for ages

recipe was:

5 x 2.4lt Apple juice
4 x 2.4lt Apple and pear juice
3 x large Packham pears
8 x pink lady apples
1 x granny smith apple

fruit was stemmed, seeded and quartered then shredded in a food processor. Followed by being stewed on the stove top for approx 10 mins....

Mad Millies dry cider yeast used to ferment

poured 2 bottles of juice into sanitised fermenter and then added stewed fruit then emptied remaining bottles of juice then sprinkled dry yeast over the top and put into temp controlled fridge at 22oC for 10 days....last hydro reading was approx 1.010 but there was quite a bit of shredded fruit in the sample
bottled into champers bottles with the nominal homebrewers 'scoop' of raw sugar(it was in the sugar container at the time) and crown sealed......

now to see if Ive made weapons of mass destruction or something drinkable....


----------



## manticle

Might have a cooked apple flavour due to being stewed. Might be pleasant, might not be. See how it goes I guess but generally cider is made from juice from raw apples.


----------



## Tahoose

Was going to bottle the cider i mentioned a couple of posts ago today, but ater drinking a slab + of mercury draught as a music festival over the weekend the thought of bottling a batch of cider today was making me shudder.

I also have a cider which I previously bottled which was my very first attempt, brigalow can plus 22 ltrs of Aldi aplle juice wyeast 4677

came out with a bit of sweetness left but due to a mishap i stuffed my OG reading, thinki it is 7% ABV upwards, tastes a little bit like wine but not too bad for a first try i thought


----------



## Linz

manticle said:


> Might have a cooked apple flavour due to being stewed. Might be pleasant, might not be. See how it goes I guess but generally cider is made from juice from raw apples.


...wanted to make sure the yeast got first go not the wild stuff on the fruit....thats the theory anyhoos


----------



## 431neb

Had to laugh when I read through this thread and discovered some of my own posts from my early "cider" experiments. After experimenting with a myriad of supposed improvements, I continue to use a very similar method to what I started with.

20 l Aldi juice (some apple some apple and black' ) , 200 grams of dex', US05 or whatever is lying around - I should experiment more with yeast but I'm lazy - keg and backsweeten with Ribena or cherry cordial or similar.

So it's really an apple based drink. Hence the "cider".

Cheap, easy to brew hooch for the missus and the masses. Bloody nice after you have wiped out your palate on too many beers.

Bloody easy way to make sure one extra tap is running without finding the time for another brew-day.


----------



## Wortgames

18L Aldi apple juice onto the yeast cake of whatever was in the fermenter before it. Fermented 2 weeks then kegged.

Tastes like cider h34r:

I must admit I'm a bit puzzled why some people add dextrose, use champagne yeast, ferment for several months, and then complain that it's too dry :unsure:


----------



## Tahoose

I agree WortGames, pretty happy with my first cider attempt has dried out a little in the bottle but over all not too bad, SWMBO said that she likes it and she'll just have to be careful because it doesn't taste very strong  

I just remember the other day that when I used s-04 for a biggish beer it didn't quite ferment all the way down, finished at 1020, so maybe for leaving some sweetness this might be go


----------



## fuseo

So I'm reading a whole bunch of posts around the best ways to ferment and go about brewing cider. It does seems a bit disambiguos and the whole thread does have some conflicting notes too. 

So... In order to get my head rapt around this I decided to post my questions. 

1- Can I definitely ferment the brew in my plastic coopers fermenter tub? (23L)
2- I can use "Woolworths" style canned or plastic bottle everyday apple juice to flavour the brew? Really?
3- Should I use the BE1 or BE2 to add some kick to the brew or just the sugar in the juice will be fine?
4- Yeast... It's seems to be 'wine yeast' that is the best one to use judging by many of the posts. Is this okay?
5- Do I need my Krausen Collar in the yeast adding segment of the brew?
6- Is two weeks okay for the initial fermentation? Then ensure consistent gravity is maintained. 
7- Can I use my glass 700ml bottles the second fermentation? Or do I need 5l flagons?

Many thanks for the replies in advance guys. Really keen to pump out the cider so any info will be great!


----------



## davedoran

I don't know a lot about cider but this is what I do know ... if it helps.

1- Can I definitely ferment the brew in my plastic coopers fermenter tub? (23L) Yes no problem. Good to ferment beer, wine, cider.
2- I can use "Woolworths" style canned or plastic bottle everyday apple juice to flavour the brew? Really? Yes, so long as there are no preservetives
3- Should I use the BE1 or BE2 to add some kick to the brew or just the sugar in the juice will be fine? Never done this so not sure. I find there is tons of sugars in the juice already
4- Yeast... It's seems to be 'wine yeast' that is the best one to use judging by many of the posts. Is this okay? Yes. Beer yeast is ok but wine yeast is better.
5- Do I need my Krausen Collar in the yeast adding segment of the brew? Ive never had much krausen with a cider.
6- Is two weeks okay for the initial fermentation? Then ensure consistent gravity is maintained. Two weeks would result in a very dry tasting cider in my opinion. Can ferment out really quickly.
7- Can I use my glass 700ml bottles the second fermentation? Or do I need 5l flagons? Can use any size bottle so long as its finished. I use pet bottle to be safe with cider.


On another note I have started using these. Great for little trial batches. Did a 1 litre bottle last week. Turned out ok. Put it in fridge to stop ferment after 3 days though, not 2 weeks.

http://www.oztops.com.au/


----------



## fuseo

Thanks mate! Helpful info there! Will be getting some more advice from my local home brew shop. Hopefully I can get cracking on this!

Cheers


----------



## superstock

So... In order to get my head rapt around this I decided to post my questions.

1- Can I definitely ferment the brew in my plastic coopers fermenter tub? (23L) Anything you can ferment beer or wine in will work
2- I can use "Woolworths" style canned or plastic bottle everyday apple juice to flavour the brew? Really? Get the pasteurised juice off the shelf, not out of the chiller.
3- Should I use the BE1 or BE2 to add some kick to the brew or just the sugar in the juice will be fine? The juice itself has enough sugar for around 5%.
4- Yeast... It's seems to be 'wine yeast' that is the best one to use judging by many of the posts. Is this okay? Nearly all yeast will ferment cider to dryness because it is nearly all simple sugars. I prefer ale yeast. S-04
5- Do I need my Krausen Collar in the yeast adding segment of the brew? Not really, cider from supermarket juice normally does not produce much krausen.
6- Is two weeks okay for the initial fermentation? Then ensure consistent gravity is maintained.
Depends on ferment temp. I usually ferment at 16-18'c, because of the ale yeast, rack to a secondary after 14 days, adding Lactose if I want to sweeten. Then I get lazy and might leave it be for 2-4 weeks, or not.
7- Can I use my glass 700ml bottles the second fermentation? Or do I need 5l flagons? I secondary ferment in the racked FV and carb in the bottle. When I bottle in glass, I always fill 1 PET bottle as a carb indicator.
Have a look through the non beer section for my simple cider recipe


----------



## GeoffN

Had two goes at cider.

First one the test
2l aldi juice
3 granny smith apples juiced
2 pears juiced
Brigalow yeast (was in fridge)

Only bottled yesterday not bad going into the bottle I think it will be great in two weeks time. Definitely alcoholic. Wife said it is too strong and too much like wine. She likes sweet muscato. left it in the fridge as I was hoping it would clear a little. Not a very dry finish, so the pears may have added a little residual sweetness. It is about a month old now.

Second one
3 l Woolies apple juice
3 l water
2.55 l Gobourn pear juice.
US-05 yeast
Yeast nutrient
Starting Brix 8.0
Checked tonight. Brix 3.8 hydrometer 1.007. Tart start but good fruity aftertaste. Has potential to turn out very well. Not as overtly alcoholic. Will leave for another week before bottling. Will check for completed fermentation before bottling.

Hopefully wife will enjoy them otherwise I may have to drink them myself. Such a pity


----------

