# Joe White in Hot Water



## manticle (8/10/14)

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/substandard-malt-by-joe-white-leaves-brewers-bitter/story-e6frg6n6-1227083028367

Sorry subscription only article, so here's the copy/paste text:




> _Substandard malt by Joe White leaves brewers bitter
> 
> 
> · BEN BUTLER
> ...


--


Interesting to see how it unfolds - we all know media stories and the underlying research can be downright terrible.


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## manticle (9/10/14)

Text added


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## schoey (9/10/14)

Interesting article. I haven't used JW malts for years, even then it was only spec malts so can't comment on quality. Has anyone experienced anything? I would imagine the likes of Tooheys and CUB would analyse incoming malt so why wouldn't they have picked it up earlier?


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## wobbly (9/10/14)

[SIZE=11pt]When in Broome earlier this year I had the opportunity to have a number of chats with the head brewer at Matsos and the following is his comments on malts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]_I do exclusively NOT use Joe White Maltings.__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_I used until recently (for the last six months) Barrett Burston.__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_But their quality variations have also put me off and I will be using Weyermann Pils for the next 6-12 months.__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_Prices are $1.63 compared to $1.34 for BBM......__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_I also have switched to Mangrove Jack Yeast, away from Fermentis, which I used exclusively for the last 14 years!!__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_Recently, the phenolics in both Lager and Ale plus banana and clove esters in the Pale Ale, fermented at 22 – 23 degrees.....__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_Unacceptable, so I try everything new and see, where we come out.....__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_I have no experience with any other grain than BBM, JW or Weyermann, so can’t comment on Maris Otter, but I don’t believe in the hype.__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt]_Except, when certain companies germinate feeding barley and sell it for brewing barley, like JW did once, long time ago.....__[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Wobbly[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]


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## klangers (9/10/14)

While the big brewers do contact conduct extract, colour and nitrogen tests, it's possible that other chemical analysis slipped under the radar.


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## DU99 (9/10/14)

you get what you pay for.


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## Yob (9/10/14)

Well.. That's partly the point.. Folks weren't


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## Dan Pratt (9/10/14)

The local brewery here on the C/Coast was using JW and about 6-8 months ago swapped over to BB.

Sounds like it was industry knowlegde.

P.s - for sale 1 x 25kg JW Ale malt h34r:


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## SimoB (9/10/14)

dam have traditional ale left, about 15kg. Get through that and I'm moving on.


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## Yob (9/10/14)

Won't be changing because of an unknown verified article. If I notice a difference in taste.. Sure


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## mckenry (9/10/14)

Yob said:


> Won't be changing because of an unknown verified article. If I notice a difference in taste.. Sure


Exactly. If anyone is shitting their pants about using JW Malts, I'll happily take it off your hands for free. h34r:


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## Weizguy (9/10/14)

I'm quite happy with the JW wheat malt I have in stock here, and will continue to use it


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## Spiesy (9/10/14)

I don't use a great of JW Ale, truth be told.
The difference between the cheapest and more expensive base malts is like $5-10 (at full retail) for 2.5 slabs worth.
That's like an extra $0.33 to $0.66 per six pack.

I'm certainly no rich man, but I can justify that.


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## manticle (9/10/14)

Even if the article is completely true, the new owners are obviously changing things so if you've used JW and been happy, it's only going to improve. I don't use it but nothing to do with the article.


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## AndrewQLD (9/10/14)

Been using JW malts in fairly high volume for the last 18 mths and have not noticed any variation in the quality.


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## AndrewQLD (9/10/14)

Pratty1 said:


> The local brewery here on the C/Coast was using JW and about 6-8 months ago swapped over to BB.
> 
> Sounds like it was industry knowlegde.
> 
> P.s - for sale 1 x 25kg JW Ale malt h34r:


More likely they were able to get a better volume discount from BB.


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## Bribie G (9/10/14)

I once got 80k from Oakey Maltings that had been malted for Nestle to make Milo. It made a passable beer.


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## Hippy (9/10/14)

Seems Joe White is not all it's cracked up to be according to the Australian they've been fudging analysis data. I did have a link up but it doesn't seem to be working.


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## verysupple (9/10/14)

That link leads to this thread.


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## jyo (9/10/14)

Try this link instead- http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83090-joe-white-in-hot-water/#


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## manticle (9/10/14)

Can't easily link because on phone but there's a thread on this already. Will merge topics tomorrow.


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## Hippy (9/10/14)

Thanks Manticle. Did look for it but couldn't find anything.


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## Hippy (9/10/14)

Thanks JYO your link is much better :lol:


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## Midnight Brew (9/10/14)

Im a Joe White wheat lover. The Vienna never tickled my fancy and never had any issues with the pils or ale. Sure I found them one dimensional in a SMASH but dress them up nicely with Munich, spec malts and hop additions and they're lovely.


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## GalBrew (9/10/14)

I used JW malts exclusively in my Dortmunder that has placed quite nicely in comps of late. Can't be all that bad?


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## slcmorro (9/10/14)

If anyone wants to offload their JW Malts to me because they're scared, let me know and I think I might be able to make room


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## warra48 (9/10/14)

Two topics on the same subject merged.


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## aussiebrewer (10/10/14)

I take it most people didn't read the article. From this I took that JW was doing the dodgie and then sold, didn't say anything about the new owner doing anything dodgie and im pretty sure there is no malt still for sale from the old owner. 

And they didn't say anything about the malt being bad really just that it didn't meet the customers requirements. We all know how anal and precious us brewers can be, if I was a malter id probably fudge the numbers too lol

I'm with you yob won't change till I start getting bad beer. 


Cheers 
Matt


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## manticle (10/10/14)

At most, I think many skim read it. I didn't post it to imply jw was bad or that people should sell/give away the malt.


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## Adr_0 (10/10/14)

Exactly how hot is this water? Good strike temp for a 68°C mash?


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## vykuza (10/10/14)

The take away from this that I got is that the price of the JW malt might rise, considering they will need to lower capacity to meet the standards the new owners want. I don't see it being much of an issue at home brewing level, but when they are competing for the business of the big breweries, it might make it a bit harder for JW to meet the price points the breweries demand.


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## clickeral (10/10/14)

Nick R said:


> The take away from this that I got is that the price of the JW malt might rise, considering they will need to lower capacity to meet the standards the new owners want. I don't see it being much of an issue at home brewing level, but when they are competing for the business of the big breweries, it might make it a bit harder for JW to meet the price points the breweries demand.


Atm a bag of the Ale and pilsner is under $50 pickup ($28 for delivery to where I am) I have had no issue with taste

if it goes up I'll switch to powells who sell for $50 a bag (pickup) but only do Ale and pale malt from what I can find out

I also work for a large scale food manufacter and while testing is done most of the time we take what the CofA has on it as correct generally we only test for mirco issues unless it is apparent its out of spec.

If the Malt being supplied was an issue then end product would have been noticeably effected


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## TheWiggman (10/10/14)

To me this sounds like a largely politicised issue from a new owner who's not satisfied with the deal they got. I have no doubt that there are bases behind the claims but it worries me when articles cite things like:

_Substandard malt by Joe White leaves brewers bitter__ - _not by those on this forum it seems. The article doesn't mention brewers being bitter at all.
_BREWERS have been routinely supplied with substandard malt - _substandard perhaps, but by what standard?
_... controversial Swiss commodities group Glencore - a_dding extra adjectives always put an immediate slant on the article, especially with a word like 'controversial' which immediately implies that foul play is afoot

I have a feeling there would have been a few instances where wrong product was sent (wrong barley for example) but I'm _guessing_ these were isolated cases. A mining company I used to work for stated that they would, about once a year, accidentally ship a product that was not to spec. I'm talking a few hundred tousand tonnes of product. Because of the quality testing in place, it's the customer who recognises this first and the cause is normally a clerical error drawing from the wrong stockpile or putting the wrong thing there in the first place.

I'm guessing the issue is more about false reporting of quality in some instances, and hoping the customer won't find out 2 row is being sent instead of 4 row for example. If the issue was genuinly concerning then the big players surely would have rejected the malt based on their own internal testing, which they certainly would have performed. If it was tested as being an appropriate spec for 250kl of beer, then even if it was slightly out of the stated spec it would still have been ok for the brew. It's not something a brewery would take a gamble on. If the brewers keep accepting the product, then perhaps JW got a little looser on their quality control because they knew it was all that was required for certain customers. This wouldn't surprise me at all.

Who knows really, I'm doing a lot of speculating. I use JW for all my bases and I suppose at least now, as Manticle said, I can have more faith that I'll be getting a decent product because this scrutiny has been raised by the new owners. I'm very keen to see if output does drop by 40% and they do actually spend $30 mil, because that's a big call for a business to make (lost turnover and unplanned capital). I'm hoping it's not just an announcement strategy to add more weight to the court case.


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## peas_and_corn (10/10/14)

This isn't an issue brought up by customers though- the new owners were lied to about the capacity of jw to produce up to spec malt, with their true capacity being 60% of what was claimed pre-sale.


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## contrarian (10/10/14)

There's an even more serious implication here, that Lion and SABmiller actually care about the flavour of the beer they produce!

Jokes aside when a company changes hands twice in quick succession you have to think that either Viterra noticed there was a problem and sold it on as quickly as possible to a company that didn't complete due diligence or that Cargill have expensive lawyers on reatiner who have convinced them there could be some money here.


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## Stormahead (10/10/14)

They state the use of Gibbrellic Acid as an additive - like they're committing some crime.
Guess what..they all use GA to achieve uniform germination, a lot of the food production industry use it 

The big brewers have a ridiculously tight spec on the malt yes but any deviation doesn't automatically mean its going to be bad malt


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## Pogierob (10/10/14)

_Joe White owner Viterra, a subsidiary of controversial Swiss commodities group Glencore, by the maltster’s new owner, US agribusiness behemoth Cargill.._


_And here I was thinking by using JW I was buying locally, sure it's produced in Australia but like everything the money rolls in a different direction after that._


_Hurry up NFH and get malting man._


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## manticle (11/10/14)

You're buying locally by using grain and grape or craftbrewer or whoever. About the best you can hope for.


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## sp0rk (30/11/14)

So to resurrect this
I've just made a Bavarian Weizen using Weyermann Boh Pils
I've been getting 65-68% efficiency with JW malts
Just hit 85% efficiency with the boh pils (and blew my expect gravity way out)
only difference was I did a Ferula-Acid rest with the boh pils


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## droid (30/11/14)

well there you go


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## 4KingAle (30/11/14)

sp0rk said:


> So to resurrect this
> I've just made a Bavarian Weizen using Weyermann Boh Pils
> I've been getting 65-68% efficiency with JW malts
> Just hit 85% efficiency with the boh pils (and blew my expect gravity way out)
> only difference was I did a Ferula-Acid rest with the boh pils


Lucky you're weren't brewing 500 litres or more at a time..... That's a lot of extra grain !


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## AndrewQLD (30/11/14)

sp0rk said:


> So to resurrect this
> I've just made a Bavarian Weizen using Weyermann Boh Pils
> I've been getting 65-68% efficiency with JW malts
> Just hit 85% efficiency with the boh pils (and blew my expect gravity way out)
> only difference was I did a Ferula-Acid rest with the boh pils


Sorry spork, but you have not really clarified anything, was the increase in eff due to the different malt or the ferulic acid rest.
I get 80% efficiency using JW pilsner on my system but a slightly reduced efficiency using weyermanns pilsner malt at 76% eff, and that's the exact same mash profile.


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## sp0rk (30/11/14)

I'll be doing the exact same mash schedule with my next beer (using JW ale), to get a better comparison


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## schtev (5/1/15)

sp0rk said:


> I'll be doing the exact same mash schedule with my next beer (using JW ale), to get a better comparison


Bump, did you ever do this test? Stumbled on to this thread and now I'm curious whether there's anything to it...


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## manticle (5/1/15)

The original article is about deliberate misinformation being allegedly passed onto a new owner.
Efficiency results in a batch of hb aren't really going to tell anyone anything 

I posted the original article because it was in mainstream news and of relevance to the community, not to freak everyone out and equate jw malt with cigarette ash.
Get a grip my brothers and sisters.


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## sp0rk (6/1/15)

The brew day ended up being cancelled, so I haven't brewed since
I don't know if I'll even bother with the experiment, I'm hoping to have my 3V up and running by the next time I have to brew so my efficiency will be different anyway


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