# Whirlpool Process



## Vanoontour (8/3/12)

Hey All,

I'm after a quick run down of the process at the end of the boil. I have finally mounted a tap and pick up tube to my pot and got a few questions. My plan is too do the following,
Flame out
Wait for convections to die down a bit
Whirlpool
Drain via tap while wort is still moving as part of whirlpool.

Is this correct? OR to you wait until after the whirlpool has settled before starting to drain? Does it matter?

Cheers


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## seemax (8/3/12)

I usually add flame out hops, whirlpool for few minutes, cover on and sit for 5-10mins until the convection stops or slows a lot.

Hose into cube, open tap and make sure it has good suction.... that's it!


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## felten (8/3/12)

usually wait for the whirlpool to stop and the trub to settle in the middle of the pot


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## QldKev (8/3/12)

Basically correct just the last step.

You need to wait until all the shit in suspension has dropped out. Could be 10min or more. I also find having the lid on helps stop the currents in the wort better, and allows it to drop out better. When you drain open the lid just enough to prevent a vacuum in the pot occurring. 

The key is you want to be draining clear wort if possible. So lid / no lid etc is something you can experiment with.

QldKev


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## balconybrewer (8/3/12)

ive always been confused by this stage and all the info is very contradictory. 

if you add your flame out hops, whirlpool for 2mins to get a good vortex and then let it stop spinning all of a sudden your late hops have all been in boiling wort for an extra 10 mins.

i have no dramas whirlpooling and letting a lighty hopped beer sit for 5-6 mins to settle but it is a tricky question that i have never really found the answer to when talking about a beer that has a large amount of late hops.

i did a green flash WCIPA clone last night and process was as follows;

start whirlpooling with plate chiller in-line 2 mins before flameout to sanatise the chiller and get the vortext happening. turned off the burner and waited 1 min for decent vortex. turned off the pump and added flameout hops. let settle for about 1-2 mins and then pumped through the chiller

im not saying this is the answer, just what i have come up with for beers with heaps of late hops, would also love some feedback

cheers


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## Malted (8/3/12)

I don't wait for the convection currents to stop before whirlpooling. I give it a good stir straight after turning off the heat, let it go for a bit and give it another swirl and then wait. I drain out the wort once the wort has stopped moving and the trub/hop cone has had a chance to form in the middle and drop out of suspension to settle on the bottom.

Once convection currents stop the bits drop to the bottom, the whirlpool is to make them drop in a nice clump in the middle. My devices can take 1/2 hour or longer for the convection currents to stop. I was worried that if I wait for the convection currents to stop that all of my hop additions would be sitting in wort hot enough to keep extracting bitterness (i.e. wort at hop isomerisation temps during the whirpool and the time whilst waiting for the convection currents to stop stirring it up). 

What I have tried a couple of times now is to do the above but after only 5 minutes I run a large proportion of the wort quickly through my plate chiller into a sterilised bucket and then dump it back into the kettle. The wort in the kettle is then probably down to 50oC or so. I then whirlpool it again and let it sit for as long as I like and thus get a nice clear wort with a good compact trub cone underneath and my mind is at ease because it is below isomerisation temps.

Edit: balconybrewer must have been typing the same time as me but I was slower. Yeah I have the same issue with whirlpooling as you.


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## argon (8/3/12)

When I used to whirlpool I would flameout, wait 5 mins for convection currents to stop. Whirlpool for a couple of minutes, wait another 15 mins for motion to stop and stuff to drop out. Then drain via a side pickup. Usually around a 20min wait post flameout process.

However a 2mm perf SS false bottom and central pickup with the use of some hop leaves as a filter bed eliminates the whirlpool step for me all together and saves me that time and inconsistency. Now I flameout and immediately open the tap and start chilling straight away. Crystal clear wort out of the kettle immediately. And with a central pickup under a filter bed I lose only about 500mL to kettle trub etc.


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## Malted (8/3/12)

argon said:


> When I used to whirlpool I would flameout, wait 5 mins for convection currents to stop. Whirlpool for a couple of minutes, wait another 15 mins for motion to stop and stuff to drop out. Then drain via a side pickup. Usually around a 20min wait post flameout process.
> 
> However a 2mm perf SS false bottom and central pickup with the use of some hop leaves as a filter bed eliminates the whirlpool step for me all together and saves me that time and inconsistency. Now I flameout and immediately open the tap and start chilling straight away. Crystal clear wort out of the kettle immediately. And with a central pickup under a filter bed I lose only about 500mL to kettle trub etc.



So your kettle is like a mashtun? Any pictures?


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## warra48 (8/3/12)

balconybrewer said:


> ive always been confused by this stage and all the info is very contradictory.
> 
> if you add your flame out hops, whirlpool for 2mins to get a good vortex and then let it stop spinning all of a sudden your late hops have all been in boiling wort for an extra 10 mins.
> 
> ...



I agree with you about contradictory information.

The difficulty with using a plate chiller, it seems to me, is that you drain your kettle as part of your chilling process. Hence whirlpooling won't work too well, because of the vortices from the heat in the kettle, and the fact you want to chill post boil as soon as practicable.

I think it works much better if you use an immersion chiller, take the chiller out after chilling, and then whirlpool. 
That's the process I use with my system, but even then the whirlpooling is only partly effective because of the presence of the tap etc in my kettle.
Probably works best if you have a kettle without other hardware, and syphon after chilling.


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## argon (8/3/12)

Exactly the same as a mash tun. Here's a couple of shitty pics.









I modified the pickup so that there is a threaded rod going through the false bottom almost touching the floor of the kettle. This way I lose very little by way of kettle loss. 

It's best to use a plug or 2 of hop leaf to act as a filter bed before the perf. Once drained there is a big pile of hop and break material on the falsy and the exposed base of the kettle is pretty much dry. Before setting up the 70L kettle I used to use an 80L keggle with side pickup and could lose 2-3L.


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## felten (8/3/12)

balconybrewer said:


> ive always been confused by this stage and all the info is very contradictory.
> 
> if you add your flame out hops, whirlpool for 2mins to get a good vortex and then let it stop spinning all of a sudden your late hops have all been in boiling wort for an extra 10 mins.
> 
> ...



Have you found you lose too much aroma from the late hops if they sit in the kettle for the extra time? 

I wouldn't worry about it unless your beer is coming out too bitter for your taste, in which case I would just reduce the bittering addition to compensate. Another alternative is to use a hopback, so the beer is chilled right after it passes through the hops, and it doubles as a trub filter.

Commercial breweries that add WP hops can have them sitting there for up to an hour or more, and that doesn't seem to cause too many problems.


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## pk.sax (8/3/12)

Me thinks I'm buying another falsie.
Thanks Aargon. That is a great solution.


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## dmac80 (8/3/12)

I had a similar kettle setup to Argon, but i put a hole in the centre of a stainless mesh splatter guard (removed the ring from the outside) and had the splatter guard mesh attached to the underside of the false bottom by the fittings through the centre of the false bottom. I used this arrangement with pellets as well as flowers and it worked fine for both.


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## Florian (8/3/12)

I've stopped whirlpooling all together about 10 or 15 brews ago. I've noticed that I get more clear wort into the cube without whirlpooling.

The tap on the Braumeister is a few cm above the bottom. When I whirlpool, I have a trub cone in the middle which extends above the height of the tap. When i then tilt the BM towards the end of transfer the cone slowly starts drifting towards the tap and eventually into the cube.

Without whirlpooling, I have a flat compact trub layer on the bottom which sits well below tapp level. Therefore, when I tilt the BM, the wort just runs over that layer without pulling the trub with it towards the tap. 

The difference in the amount of clear wort I get might not be huge, but at the same time I also avoid having to whirlpool and possibly introducing pollutants into the wort that I don't want in there. 

I now put the lid on during the last one or two minutes of the boil, just after adding brew brite, and leave it there until everything is transferred. It also means that my wort is generally a few degrees warmer when transferring which works well for the way I brew. I now start transferring when the wort reaches 94 degrees which i have found gives me just the right 'trub compactness'.


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## balconybrewer (8/3/12)

anyone out there that has the whirlpool situation sorted that uses a beerbelly hopscreen.

i am siding with argon in that im moving away from whirlpooling altogether and letting the hop screen filter most of my trub out. even if i get some hot break through i am still getting heaps of cold break from the chiller yet beers are still clear after ferment so maybe its a whole lot of work for nothing.

more input from similar setups would be helpful.

cheers


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## husky (8/3/12)

I do a 90 min boil
Add 60 min hops after 30 mins of boiling
turn off elements at 20 and continue to brew as normal. 
By the time I get down to 0 theres no convection currents and I whirlpool for a minute then drain through palte chiller.
After 20 minutes of no heat most things that will drop out have already and the wort is still 95 to 100 degrees to extract hop oils.
Right or wrong I dont know but this is what I am doing for highly hopped brews.


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## kelbygreen (8/3/12)

I cant see why you would use a pick up in the middle of the pot??? my pick up is bent like a S comes out bends the direction you will whirlpool (this sucks crap out of the tube and wont force crap in) then bends back to the wall and bends to follow the shape of the wall of the kettle. When you whirlpool the crap gets sucked into the center if done right then the pick up I use will suck alot out without getting any brake material. Just slow the flow when you hit the trub cone so it doesnt suck crap in.


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## dmac80 (8/3/12)

kelbygreen said:


> I cant see why you would use a pick up in the middle of the pot??? my pick up is bent like a S comes out bends the direction you will whirlpool (this sucks crap out of the tube and wont force crap in) then bends back to the wall and bends to follow the shape of the wall of the kettle. When you whirlpool the crap gets sucked into the center if done right then the pick up I use will suck alot out without getting any brake material. Just slow the flow when you hit the trub cone so it doesnt suck crap in.



You don't need to whirlpool with the pickup in the centre, and the wort is drawn from below the screen which strain out any hops and other debris.

This allows you to start draining the kettle straight away, without waiting for anything to settle.

Cheers


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## kelbygreen (8/3/12)

so all the hot break goes into the fermenter?


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## dmac80 (8/3/12)

No, hops tend to strain that out. Usually have a nice even layer of hops over the top of the screen which will 'filter' the wort as it passes through it.


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## kelbygreen (8/3/12)

oh ok. well mines set up so not changing it now  but if it works then thats good


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## dmac80 (8/3/12)

You've gotta do what works for you..


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## donburke (8/3/12)

husky said:


> I do a 90 min boil
> Add 60 min hops after 30 mins of boiling
> turn off elements at 20 and continue to brew as normal.
> By the time I get down to 0 theres no convection currents and I whirlpool for a minute then drain through palte chiller.
> ...




thats not a 90 min boil if you turn of elements at 20


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## donburke (8/3/12)

i did start off with a beerbelly hopscreen

as i whirlpool via recirculating with the pump i found that the hopscreen would fill very quickly with pellets (i only use pellets), restricting the flow considerably, so i removed it and replaced with a pickup tube that goes all the way to the side of the pot, and is about 1cm off the base

this works much better for me





balconybrewer said:


> anyone out there that has the whirlpool situation sorted that uses a beerbelly hopscreen.
> 
> i am siding with argon in that im moving away from whirlpooling altogether and letting the hop screen filter most of my trub out. even if i get some hot break through i am still getting heaps of cold break from the chiller yet beers are still clear after ferment so maybe its a whole lot of work for nothing.
> 
> ...


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## mmmyummybeer (8/3/12)

I use a immersion chiller to cool to temp then remove chiller. start whirlpool and let sit. I always definitely have lid on to stop bugs dropping in. The longer i leave it the better contraction of trub in the bottom. I then transfer and pitch when ready, generally at least an hour usually a few. Screen in bottom sound interesting,


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## argon (8/3/12)

mmmyummybeer said:


> I use a immersion chiller to cool to temp then remove chiller. start whirlpool and let sit. I always definitely have lid on to stop bugs dropping in. The longer i leave it the better contraction of trub in the bottom. I then transfer and pitch when ready, generally at least an hour usually a few. Screen in bottom sound interesting,


The reason I did it was to maximise my kettle yield as I was constantly frustrated at the amount of wort left in the kettle. However I found the extra benefits of time. A shorter time post flameout prior to chilling, which helped with late hopping and time saved in overall brewday as I didn't have to wait for the whirlpool. 

I'll never go back, I'll always have a screen/filter when draining the kettle.


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## kelbygreen (8/3/12)

hmm few options here but would like to know how much hot break gets threw and if its not a heap if thats makes the beer different??? I guess every way you do it will make it different but see people tip the whole thing into the cube and seal so hot break is going in to. Sure you can try separate it when filling FV but you got hot and cold break then. All my cold break goes into FV I dont care I dont think its a problem but hotbreak I try to keep out


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## vortex (8/3/12)

balconybrewer said:


> anyone out there that has the whirlpool situation sorted that uses a beerbelly hopscreen.






Post Whirlpool by auvortex, on Flickr

Not the tightest hop cone in this case, last one was better but no pics. Spin the wort for a minute or two with a large spoon, let it settle, drain. No different to whirlpooling with any other system. Have a fitting in the side of the kettle for whirlpooling with a pump, but haven't used it yet (no pump).


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## Cocko (8/3/12)

If we are doing pix:

This is in my old 120L kettle with a simple elbow joint as a PU...


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## Fat Bastard (8/3/12)

Has anyone been able to get a decent whirlpool going in a kettle with an electric element sticking through the side? I definately can't, even after I locked myself out of the house for an hour after flame out.


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## QldKev (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> If we are doing pix:
> 
> This is in my old 120L kettle with a simple elbow joint as a PU...
> 
> View attachment 52895




Surprising how many can make it happen this way


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## Pennywise (9/3/12)

How long were you letting that settle after WP'ing Cocko?


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## pk.sax (9/3/12)

I always get a really shitty cone when using flowers. And unless forced to use pellets, I mostly use flowers. Pellets go in the bag so they've never been a problem.


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## Cocko (9/3/12)

Pennywise said:


> How long were you letting that settle after WP'ing Cocko?



Used to be 1 cigarette... Now its about 5-10 mins....

:icon_cheers:


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## Pennywise (9/3/12)

Hmm, I don't get anything like that after 15-20 mins


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## donburke (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> If we are doing pix:
> 
> This is in my old 120L kettle with a simple elbow joint as a PU...
> 
> View attachment 52895




as far as whirlpooling and cones of trub are concerned, that is the most beautiful thing i have seen, despite the fact that other may see that as a disgusting sight, me, as a brewer, see it is a thing of beauty

cocko, can you start a new thread 'rate my trub', i score that a 10


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## Vanoontour (9/3/12)

donburke said:


> as far as whirlpooling and cones of trub are concerned, that is the most beautiful thing i have seen, despite the fact that other may see that as a disgusting sight, me, as a brewer, see it is a thing of beauty
> 
> cocko, can you start a new thread 'rate my trub', i score that a 10




+1, that is all


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## sponge (9/3/12)

I'll give it a 9...




There was not enough eye contact with the audience.




But the performance itself was magnificent.




Sponge


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## jbowers (9/3/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> Has anyone been able to get a decent whirlpool going in a kettle with an electric element sticking through the side? I definately can't, even after I locked myself out of the house for an hour after flame out.




Would also like to hear some thoughts on this. Encountering the same problem...


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## donburke (9/3/12)

sponge said:


> I'll give it a 9...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



bit harsh i think, great pirouette cocko


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## sponge (9/3/12)

Fiiiiine.....



9.6 then




If it is given a perfect score, then there's no point ever trying to improve 


(Although that is one dam fine looking trub... I may even bump it to 9.7)


Sponge


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## Malted (9/3/12)

sponge said:


> Fiiiiine.....
> 
> 9.6 then
> 
> ...



I shall reserve my score until I have further info. 
Why sir, if the wort is so clear, have you left so much of it in the kettle? Is this as far as the elbow went down to? Could you not suck any more out without tilting the pot? Or have you simply allowed several litres above that which you FV requires, to go to trubb loss? Or would you recover some of the remaining wort to use as a starter?


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## Cocko (9/3/12)

Thank you, Thank you all *bows*

@ Malted - it was still draining into the last cube, I took of the lid, saw that, whipped out the phone for a pic.

So, score?

@ PW - I would think you are not getting it spinning enough maybe? you want it really spinning, coning in the top...


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## Pennywise (9/3/12)

I get a pretty decent cone going. But I have the immersion chiller in there while I'm doing the spinning, maybe I should be chilling, removing the chiller, then spinning? I start the WP once I hit below 80c ATM and let it chill and spin till I hit mid 20's, then in to FV. Which is like 20 mins


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## eamonnfoley (9/3/12)

balconybrewer said:


> anyone out there that has the whirlpool situation sorted that uses a beerbelly hopscreen.
> 
> i am siding with argon in that im moving away from whirlpooling altogether and letting the hop screen filter most of my trub out. even if i get some hot break through i am still getting heaps of cold break from the chiller yet beers are still clear after ferment so maybe its a whole lot of work for nothing.
> 
> ...



From my experience the beerbelly hopscreen does not filter any trub or pellet hops. I still use it because its there, but I use a hopsock as I dont want hops in chiller. I whirlpool to minimise break and trub into my fermenter. Even a partial cone is enough to stop most of it leaving the pot. I always leave a little wort behind though - not fussed about getting every drop.


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## Bongchitis (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> Thank you, Thank you all *bows*
> 
> @ Malted - it was still draining into the last cube, I took of the lid, saw that, whipped out the phone for a pic.
> 
> ...




+1 Yep it took me 2 years to figure out you thrash the living shit out of the wort until it nearly laps out of the top. Start off slow then build pace until you cant go any faster and try to do small circles in the centre. Works a treat... but I must say that I leave mine settle for 25 mins and dont get quite the results that cocko gets.

Hey Cocko, what do you use for finnings in the kettle?


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## sim (9/3/12)

maybe Cocko gets such good results from pork spinning his whirlpool...?


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## MaltyHops (9/3/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> Has anyone been able to get a decent whirlpool going in a kettle with an electric element
> sticking through the side? I definately can't, even after I locked myself out of the house
> for an hour after flame out.


Think I got a reasonable cone in the inaugural brew in my system (hope it wasn't
a fluke) I did get the element positioned with ~40mm of clearance above the
kettle floor - trade-off with having more clearance (for better whirlpooling) vs
being able to keep down the minimum amount of fluid needed (in RIMS mode).


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## Malted (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> @ Malted - it was still draining into the last cube, I took of the lid, saw that, whipped out the phone for a pic.
> So, score?



Humpff, I suppose it looks alright.



Bongchitis said:


> Hey Cocko, what do you use for finnings in the kettle?





sim said:


> maybe Cocko gets such good results from pork spinning his whirlpool...?




Maybe it is the cheese from his 'spinner' that is a good* finning agent?

* poor terminology: it might would most likely  actually be very very bad for consumption purposes despite acting as a very effective finning agent.


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## Cocko (9/3/12)

Bongchitis said:


> +1 Yep it took me 2 years to figure out you thrash the living shit out of the wort until it nearly laps out of the top. Start off slow then build pace until you cant go any faster and try to do small circles in the centre. Works a treat... but I must say that I leave mine settle for 25 mins and dont get quite the results that cocko gets.
> 
> Hey Cocko, what do you use for finnings in the kettle?



Thats the exact method I use.. getting coning in the middle and as high it can go on the edges - start slow, build up until you can not physically go any faster. Similar method I use on swmbo  

Finnings = Irish Moss tablets.



sim said:


> maybe Cocko gets such good results from pork spinning his whirlpool...?



What is 'pork spinning' ? h34r: 



Malted said:


> Humpff, I suppose it looks alright.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:lol:


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## sim (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> What is 'pork spinning' ?



errr newb. Consult the AHB abreviations page FFS


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## Charst (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> If we are doing pix:
> 
> This is in my old 120L kettle with a simple elbow joint as a PU...
> 
> View attachment 52895




Very Jealous!
Struggle to Whirlpool mine with the immersion element in it, thinking about some kind of motorised paddle through the top of the lid to aid chilling and whirlpool. I've been using irish moss half a tab per 20L, wait for convections to stop, whirlpool, leave for hour and it still doesn't settle well.

What Flocculant and how much cocko?

Edit: Sorry thread updated between me reading and posting. ignore


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## Cocko (9/3/12)

sim said:


> errr newb. Consult the AHB abreviations page FFS



:lol:  



Charst said:


> Very Jealous!
> Struggle to Whirlpool mine with the immersion element in it, thinking about some kind of motorised paddle through the top of the lid to aid chilling and whirlpool. I've been using irish moss half a tab per 20L, wait for convections to stop, whirlpool, leave for hour and it still doesn't settle well.
> 
> What Flocculant and how much cocko?



Maybe the bigger pot helps.. dunno, used to get pretty constant result on that kettle.

Can't stress the really getting it spinning enough, start slow, small circle in the middle blah blah as before...

Irish Moss tablets - 4 tablets [in 88L] @ 10 minutes.



Oh, I also shelve half a tablet @ 5 minutes  h34r:


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## Pennywise (9/3/12)

No wonder the cone is so good, I can only imagine the spinning you'd get after racking up half a tab of Irish Moss :lol:


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## SJW (9/3/12)

I have never ever got a cone of any type in my kettle. I use 1/2 a whilfloc tab and stir the wort after the imersion chiller comes out. Maybe I dont spin it hard enough.??????


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## Vanoontour (9/3/12)

Right, well I got no idea what happened with mine then. No cone formed at all?? For a 15l batch used 1/4 whirlfloc at 5 mins to go. WP'd as much as possible till it spilling over the sides. Still, the trub cone was more of a trub pancake!! Its a Big W pot.

Any ideas??


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## adz1179 (9/3/12)

Cocko said:


> Thats the exact method I use.. getting coning in the middle and as high it can go on the edges - start slow, build up until you can not physically go any faster. Similar method I use on swmbo



Fark that's gold. Best laugh i have had all week. Read that out loud to my mrs and she even giggled and gave me the nod. Love your work son.


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## Cocko (9/3/12)

vanoontour said:


> Right, well I got no idea what happened with mine then. No cone formed at all?? For a 15l batch used 1/4 whirlfloc at 5 mins to go. WP'd as much as possible till it spilling over the sides. Still, the trub cone was more of a trub pancake!! Its a Big W pot.
> 
> Any ideas??



I am thinking on the fly here and as I said earlier, maybe the pot size really does change it a bit....

BUT - Can you try doing the same amount of spinning, as much as your pot can handle and open your tap before it stops?

And just maybe, the drawing of liquid through the tap will help in the process? Thoughts only.

It seems I am draining the kettle a lot earlier than others and it may be helping.. dunno, just a thought.

Report back if you do!

EDIT: Spin in direction your tube picks up from too!



adz1179 said:


> Fark that's gold. Best laugh i have had all week. Read that out loud to my mrs and she even giggled and gave me the nod. Love your work son.



Thanks, I'm here all week..


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## seemax (9/3/12)

I do the same, start slow, build up speed until your arm hurts and you desperately need a top up ... priorities and all.

I've got a 70L wide pot with an electric element, thermowell and angled pickup... absolutely no problem getting a good cone.


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## SJW (9/3/12)

I like the idea of not whirlpooling in the BM and just letting the wort slide on over the trub. While I dont get a cone, I do get a slight concentration in the middle.
On the old 3V system I never bothered with such nonsence. Just chill and dump it into the fermenter. 

Steve


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## donburke (9/3/12)

vanoontour said:


> Right, well I got no idea what happened with mine then. No cone formed at all?? For a 15l batch used 1/4 whirlfloc at 5 mins to go. WP'd as much as possible till it spilling over the sides. Still, the trub cone was more of a trub pancake!! Its a Big W pot.
> 
> Any ideas??




i give that a 1

roy & hg would call that a dogs breakfast


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## Fat Bastard (9/3/12)

MaltyHops said:


> Think I got a reasonable cone in the inaugural brew in my system (hope it wasn't
> a fluke) I did get the element positioned with ~40mm of clearance above the
> kettle floor - trade-off with having more clearance (for better whirlpooling) vs
> being able to keep down the minimum amount of fluid needed (in RIMS mode).




Looks similar to my set up except I have a home made hopscreen on the pickup, a perf plate bag rest and another s/s mesh false bottom that sits over that. Still can't get a whirlpool going that actually makes a cone. Just seems to stir shit up.

Just like Cocko and his pork-spinner.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/3/12)

Bigger, wider pot and nice flat bottom with minimal crap sticking into the kettle is the main thing, both theoretically and in my experience. Plus the "right" amount of kettle finings, not too little and not too much. but the wide pot helps most - whipping the crap out of it doesn't really make that much diff - this was 10 or 15 seconds of spinning it till the whole volume was rotating nicely and there was definite vortex shape, and a 10-15 min rest... but spinning it up with a power drill and attachment till it looks like a starter on my stirplate, makes little to no improvement.

In my converted keg kettle... i never got a decent cone, not once in over a hundred brews worth of trying different ways to manage it - in this pot (70L Al pot from allquip) it was like this first time and has been ever since.


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## kelbygreen (9/3/12)

Yes TB got it. My 20 lt pot would not get any cone at all. My 50lt keggle got slight one but not like I seen. My 80lt pot very wide and flat bottom gets a perfect cone about a inch and a half from the sides is not trub just like TB pic.

edit: Oh forgot what the thread was about as I use a alloy pot to!


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## Cocko (9/3/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Bigger, wider pot and nice flat bottom with minimal crap sticking into the kettle is the main thing, both theoretically and in my experience. Plus the "right" amount of kettle finings, not too little and not too much. but the wide pot helps most - whipping the crap out of it doesn't really make that much diff - this was 10 or 15 seconds of spinning it till the whole volume was rotating nicely and there was definite vortex shape, and a 10-15 min rest... but spinning it up with a power drill and attachment till it looks like a starter on my stirplate, makes little to no improvement.
> 
> In my converted keg kettle... i never got a decent cone, not once in over a hundred brews worth of trying different ways to manage it - in this pot (70L Al pot from allquip) it was like this first time and has been ever since.



Thought as such!

TB, is that really how much that PU tube drains that pot? FARK!

How? Is it cut on the angle to be flat against the bottom?


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## Brewman_ (9/3/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Bigger, wider pot and nice flat bottom with minimal crap sticking into the kettle is the main thing, both theoretically and in my experience. Plus the "right" amount of kettle finings, not too little and not too much. but the wide pot helps most - whipping the crap out of it doesn't really make that much diff - this was 10 or 15 seconds of spinning it till the whole volume was rotating nicely and there was definite vortex shape, and a 10-15 min rest... but spinning it up with a power drill and attachment till it looks like a starter on my stirplate, makes little to no improvement.
> 
> In my converted keg kettle... i never got a decent cone, not once in over a hundred brews worth of trying different ways to manage it - in this pot (70L Al pot from allquip) it was like this first time and has been ever since.




TB That really does look good.

But where is the rest of the liquid below the pickup tube? How did that get out of the kettle and leave the hot break so perfect?

Fear_n_loath


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## TidalPete (9/3/12)

Love the idea of not having to whirlpool but having tried several ways to go about that in the past (not yours argon :icon_cheers: ) 
Happy to go with whirlpooling via the March & whirlpool tool ATM after going to the expense of all stainless in regards to the whirlpool with a complete stainless conversion of the brewery to come ASAP.

However, I do have several litres left in the kettle after draining to fermenter but just pour the lot, trub & all into a 5-litre jug to be chilled overnight & the resultant clear wort frozen for the next or future starter.

Getting to the pointy bit I need to ask if hop flowers from the original brew (boiled again post-brew perhaps?) can be kept (frozen?) as a filter for future brews? Very interested in this dollar-wise as they will be sterilised again in the boil of future brews & must have no influence on the IBU's? whatsoever?

If I'm correct, they can only be used for a limited number of brews? 
Nothing lasts forever. 
Keen to hear your responses as I mostly use pellets for the sake of the budget & happy to be corrected if going about this the wrong way?

TP 

PS --- Interested in any info regards to a substitute for hop flowers? Small, smooth Mary River gravel? 
Don't laugh!  This has been done in the distant past when filtering the MT. Tony might remember?


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## MaltyHops (10/3/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> Looks similar to my set up except I have a home made hopscreen on the pickup, a perf plate bag rest and another s/s mesh false bottom that sits over that. Still can't get a whirlpool going that actually makes a cone. Just seems to stir shit up.
> 
> Just like Cocko and his pork-spinner.


  
Might be worth fishing the bag rest and false bottom out during the boil
stage - can imagine the perforated surfaces causing turbulence that wont
help cone formation. Could tie some nylon string to them to pull them out
to see if it makes a difference, with a more permanent solution if it proves
to solve the problem.

Could the hop screen also be causing too much turbulence? Could try
whirlpooling/draining the kettle without the hopscreen (into a cube so
if it didn't work, just drain back into kettle for a reboil). If this also makes
a difference then maybe make a lower profile hop screen.


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## QldKev (10/3/12)

Since were throwing some pics of the kettle draining up, here is one from my last brew


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## beerdrinkingbob (10/3/12)

QldKev said:


> Since were throwing some pics of the kettle draining up, here is one from my last brew
> 
> View attachment 52929


 needs more hops h34r: 

Back on topic, with a keggle would it just be better to let it drop and let the base of the keg do the rest? I was thinking of doing the same and having the pick up tube just above where the dome bottom starts.


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## QldKev (10/3/12)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> needs more hops h34r:
> 
> Back on topic, with a keggle would it just be better to let it drop and let the base of the keg do the rest? I was thinking of doing the same and having the pick up tube just above where the dome bottom starts.



That's 230g of pellets sitting there, but to be fair it's a 140L pot




I've only used a 50L keggle a dozen times. Like you said, the shape will help get a lot of the trub to the centre by gravity. I still think it is best to whirlpool them as you've only helping force more away from the tap.


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## Fat Bastard (2/4/12)

MaltyHops said:


> Might be worth fishing the bag rest and false bottom out during the boil
> stage - can imagine the perforated surfaces causing turbulence that wont
> help cone formation. Could tie some nylon string to them to pull them out
> to see if it makes a difference, with a more permanent solution if it proves
> ...



I ran an experiment the other day with a handfull of rice under the FB and a handfull on top, filled the kettle and whirlpooled with a big spoon, and got 2 nice little piles of rice dead centre of both the mesh screen and bottom of the pot, so it works to a certain extent. Emboldened by this, I gave the wort a damn good thrashing about 20 minutes post boil, stirred up a lot of trub and got a nice flat pancake covering the false bottom and a layer on the bottom of the kettle itself. 

I'm thinking that in the smaller diameter pots (mine's 36 litres - 355mm dia) the spoon creates too much turbulence and puts post of the hop trub and break material back into suspension, while there's not enough mass of moving liquid to move it to the centre.

I guess the next step here would be to get a pump of some sort and see if that improves things. If nothing else, it should eliminate the turbulence kicking up crap from the bottom.

Are those little brown pumps powerful enough to get a whirlpool going?


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## kelbygreen (2/4/12)

ok in my experience your right wider or more volume pot will get better cone. I had 20lt pot never got a sign of a cone. 50lt keggle I got a cone but right to the edge. 80lt kettle I got perfect cone and about 20mm from the edge it stopped. even when the spinning in the kettle was very slow I could see particals in the kettle with 80lt pot but when they settle it was all in a cone.


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## Thirsty Boy (3/4/12)

Cocko said:


> Thought as such!
> 
> TB, is that really how much that PU tube drains that pot? FARK!
> 
> How? Is it cut on the angle to be flat against the bottom?



Cut at an angle so it sits more or less flat on the bottom - that particular brew I did a little bit of tilting to get the last of the liquid out... had a smidgeon of goo in it but i was short on volume. Normally I'd be leaving behind something like 500ml of wort, perhaps 1mm deep accross the pot bottom.

Remember - the spinning itself does bugger all because while you are spinning, you're just stirring all the crap up into suspension - it all happens while the spin slows down, as a result of the frictional forces between the sides and bottom of the pot and the liquid.

Tall thin whirlpools dont have the optimum shape for the currents that do "the job" in a whirlpool - wider flatter ones have a much better geometry. Ideally, the shape of the body of wort will be about square.. as wide as it is deep. Its not quite that, but near enough.

Also - the same amount of solids will form (surprise surprise) the same sized pile of gudge no matter what sized pot you put them in. 25L of wort (A) will make the same pile of goo in a 27L pot as it will in a 75L pot... its just that the pile will go all the way to the edge, or if there isn't enough room, just make a layer. In the bigger pot it sits in the middle with clear space around it. Same amount of malt to make a concentrated wort in a small pot??? same amount of solids, same sized pile of goo, but an even smaller pot and a worse result.

A lot of whirlpool success is also about the technique you use in draining. You should start slowly and gently, dont smash up the cone with the currents you make draining wort away. Once things are going, you can gently increase the rate, the cone has had a bit more chance to settle and stick to itself and you aren't making sudden changes in the amount of pysical stress its under - just monitor the wort to see that it stays clear - and then its vital that you slow down as soon as the top of the cone gets to the surface of the wort. You must allow the level of retained liquid in the cone, to drop at the same rate as the liquid level in the pot - if the liquid level in the pot drops faster than the cone can drain, it will be heavy and slushy and it will just start to flow and pull itself apart.

Decent pot - good boil geometry is close enough to good whirlpool geometry, so its a win win. But a bit wider is probably better in terms of whirlpooling.
Correct amount of kettle finings - and IMO Brewbrite is the best on offer
Good technique and a willingness to be a little patient.
Blessings of the gods - because sometimes it just doesn't bloody work no matter what you do (short of buying a new pot)


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## iralosavic (3/4/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Cut at an angle so it sits more or less flat on the bottom - that particular brew I did a little bit of tilting to get the last of the liquid out... had a smidgeon of goo in it but i was short on volume. Normally I'd be leaving behind something like 500ml of wort, perhaps 1mm deep accross the pot bottom.
> 
> Remember - the spinning itself does bugger all because while you are spinning, you're just stirring all the crap up into suspension - it all happens while the spin slows down, as a result of the frictional forces between the sides and bottom of the pot and the liquid.
> 
> ...



Some handy tips, as usual. My last brew was a whirlpool disaster. I lost 5L from a 20L batch (usually lose 1). I tried out using a hop spider to try and improve on 1L loss (lol) and the hop spider poly pipe distorted under the hot steam and dropped the hop sock into the boil. Expecting to have no solids in the boil, I had no drain filter/screen, so at the 5L mark I had to stop draining as it was starting to block.  But yeah, the whirlpool appeared to do absolutely nothing in my keggle.


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## pk.sax (3/4/12)

Try a gentler whirlpool with a broom handle.

Being serious here, I always get a cone in my keggle, just not as nice as those big pot ones. Been doing little experiments in a tea mug with tea leaves and a spoon's back end and that's what I've come up with.
Less distance between the walls of the pot and the centre means the energy in the flow at the side will be too high if you are thrashing it hard. I can't try it for myself yet as my gear is in a state of rebuild.


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## sponge (3/4/12)

I actually use a thick-ish piece of dowel so to speak, similar to a broom handle, for my whirlpools, and although it doesnt get a crazy tight cone, it still has a nice lightly packed cone in the keggle which doesnt get sucked into the cube upon transfer.

Just seems easier to create a decent whirlpool using it as opposed to the mash paddle with the flat end.


Sponge


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## kcurnow (3/4/12)

I have a few photos from whirlpooling on a 600L DME setup. I realise its a bit larger than the usual homebrew setup but it was interesting to see.
The first photo shows the whirlpool. Essentially the wort is pumped out the bottom of the kettle and back in via a tangential inlet to get the whirlpool action. The pump is then switched off and the wort allowed to settle for about 20 minutes allowing the whirlpool to come to a stop. The wort is then pumped slowly from the side of the kettle and through the 2 stage glycol chiller. The second phot shows the top of the trub cone just starting to poke through the top of the wort in the kettle. At this stage the brewers generally stopped pumping to prevent any of the trub being pumped through the chiller and into the fermenters. This is probably the biggest difference with large scale brews compared to homebrewing in that the % of wort left in the kettle is much smaller on large batches than if you are brewing a 20L batch and have to leave a few litres in the kettle. The final photo is a shot of the wort on the cold side of the glycol chiller showing the cold break that formed during the rapid cooling process.

Cheers

Karl


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## Gar (3/4/12)

I get quite a nice cone in my 40L Birko with exposed element...

When no chilling, I let it settle for 10 minutes or so with the lid off, then whirlpool fast as I can with my mash paddle, put the lid on and leave sit for 15 minutes or so.

I use a 90' elbow with a 3/8" hose barb for a pickup tube which I'm soon modifying to have a silicone hose with a tea ball on the end to reach the bottom.


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## stux (3/4/12)

Cocko said:


> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn. I use 1 in 66L


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## kieran (3/4/12)

argon said:


> However a 2mm perf SS false bottom and central pickup with the use of some hop leaves as a filter bed eliminates the whirlpool step for me all together and saves me that time and inconsistency. Now I flameout and immediately open the tap and start chilling straight away. Crystal clear wort out of the kettle immediately. And with a central pickup under a filter bed I lose only about 500mL to kettle trub etc.



This is my setup too - however I whirlpool for about 2 mins just to clear out any tiny bits of crud that may've collected underneath the false bottom near my pickup tube -- I've noticed a couple of times some stuff has come through and reduced my flow through my therminator. Its clear after that.

The attached picture isn't close to my current setup - it now has an inlet with angled SS tube (can be used as a return for whirlpooling, but is mainly the mash tun liquor inlet), and also has a thermowell in it too. The hose and thermowell doesn't help the whirpool, but I still get a reasonable (but not great) cone anyway. However it doesn't really matter because the bulk of the trub settles on top of the screen anyway.

The screen with through-port and pickup tube underneath nets me an extra 3-5L of clean wort per brew (since keg kettles have that dip in the bottom - I was losing a lot).


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## The_Duck (3/4/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> I ran an experiment the other day with a handfull of rice under the FB and a handfull on top, filled the kettle and whirlpooled with a big spoon, and got 2 nice little piles of rice dead centre of both the mesh screen and bottom of the pot, so it works to a certain extent. Emboldened by this, I gave the wort a damn good thrashing about 20 minutes post boil, stirred up a lot of trub and got a nice flat pancake covering the false bottom and a layer on the bottom of the kettle itself.
> 
> I'm thinking that in the smaller diameter pots (mine's 36 litres - 355mm dia) the spoon creates too much turbulence and puts post of the hop trub and break material back into suspension, while there's not enough mass of moving liquid to move it to the centre.
> 
> ...



I recently purchased a couple of the brown pumps with the intention to use one as a whirlpool pump as well as a wort transfer and one to run my immersion chiller.

I used a length of copper pipe hooked over the keggle as the outlet for the whirlpool in the wort. While the flow rate got the wort spinning slowly, I never got a funnel shaped cone on the top of the wort as a few posts have described as being optimal.

But seeing as how people are also saying that getting a whirlpool in a keggle is pretty hard, I am now not surprised.

I don't use a false bottom, screen or pickup tube and after seeing some of the pics from the other guys setups, I am thinking I may need to alter my process a bit. Most of my wort output to either cube or fermenter is well murky (like an upside down river aka Yarra River water). Usually still murky after fermentation and takes several weeks to clarify in the keg or in a bottle if I do some travellers.

I may need to get myself a kettlescreen of some sort to try and clean up my wort clarity. I also only whirlpooled for about 5 mins and drained before the wort had stopped spinning. Again, change in process might help.

Maybe I can use my mash paddle to get a good whirlpool going and then use the pump to try and keep it spinning as long as possible ?

I guess this calls for another brewday !!


Duck


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## pk.sax (3/4/12)

DD

I am going to switch to the Aargon/Kieran style pickup next kettle, in the meantime, I don't get murky water out of the kettle. The trick that I found was to whirlpool more gently for the keggle I used to go bananas in my 19L pot and even the first brew in the keggle and it was the proverbial yarra water. Just the recommended dose of whirfloc and a gentle whirlpool to just get it all spinning.
Don't have a pickup tube so towards the end I end up sucking some wort due to the tilting and the 'cone' disintegrates in to a sort of slurry. That is getting fixed with tht next keggle.

Also, my pellets go in a hop sock, flowers don't. Might make a difference.

P


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## Fat Bastard (3/4/12)

practicalfool said:


> Try a gentler whirlpool with a broom handle.
> 
> Being serious here, I always get a cone in my keggle, just not as nice as those big pot ones. Been doing little experiments in a tea mug with tea leaves and a spoon's back end and that's what I've come up with.
> Less distance between the walls of the pot and the centre means the energy in the flow at the side will be too high if you are thrashing it hard. I can't try it for myself yet as my gear is in a state of rebuild.






sponge said:


> I actually use a thick-ish piece of dowel so to speak, similar to a broom handle, for my whirlpools, and although it doesnt get a crazy tight cone, it still has a nice lightly packed cone in the keggle which doesnt get sucked into the cube upon transfer.
> 
> Just seems easier to create a decent whirlpool using it as opposed to the mash paddle with the flat end.
> 
> ...



Funny, when I was lying in bed last night after posting, I thought of using the back end of the brew spoon. I may have to see if I can find a dowel, or a piece of 7/8" stainless (with an old motorcycle grip to avoid burning my tiny 'and) and do another brew this weekend to see how it goes.

Will let you know.

Cheers,

FB


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## Fat Bastard (6/4/12)

Whirlpooled with the 1/2" dowel of doom today, and was rewarded with this magnificent sight greeting me as the wort drained.






And when I removed the false bottom screen and bag-rest, this also magnificent sight.






Neither is a perfect cone, and both slumped quite a bit as the wort drained, but then again there was over 250g of hop pellets in there! I can see this actually working quite well in a more normal beer.

A successful brew-day!


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## pk.sax (6/5/12)

Finally tried out that idea with the falsie in the kettle. Not the perfect candidate as there was bugger all hops (20L batch turned into a 23-24L batch with 3 hop plugs for bitterness only).

1/2 tab irish moss, no whirlpool, left maybe a schooner worth that wouldn't rise above the elbow pickup. Very happy.

Also, I jugged back a ~ 3 jugs to put the tiny bits that got through back on top, need to put a washer in at the point where the comp fitting goes through the falsie to stop the suck that happens through there. The comp fitting at the bottom is a 1/2" thread to 1/2" tube fitting that I drilled out the stop on the inside of to make a copper tube go all the way to the bottom.


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## timmi9191 (11/1/14)

Resurrecting an old thread, but great to see the various whirl pooling/ non wp techniques.

Is anyone considering/doing filtering out of the kettle.

A process similar to boil, chill, pump through micron filter into primary?


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## vortex (11/1/14)

I use a BrewersHardware trub filter on the kettle, well, plate chiller actually - though I still do a whirlpool too. 15min WP with pump, 15 min to settle. The trub filter is primarily there so I don't get stuff in the plate chiller. I used to get stuff in the plate chiller before I was whirlpooling properly. I wouldn't use a filter like this as a replacement for whirlpool.

Thus:





Image doesn't want to work for me. Direct link: http://i.imgur.com/Hlo5A9W.jpg


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## timmi9191 (11/1/14)

Sweet rig


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## timmi9191 (11/1/14)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfp_ifTjMqg

I'm impressed with this guys equipment and technique. Anyone doing similar?


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## vortex (11/1/14)

IMO there would be an increased risk of infection chilling in the kettle like that if you didn't cover it with a lid - the upside though is that most of the cold break remains in the kettle (not much of an upside for the risk IMO). Personally I'm sticking to a plate chiller and plan to upgrade to the Sabco which can be dismantled, when funds allow.

Jamil Z has some info on his whirlpool chiller here: http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php


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## Camo6 (11/1/14)

I used a WP IC with my BIAB setup and plan to reuse it when I get around to setting it up on the HERMS rig. I'd recirc for 15mins then at flameout I'd cover the kettle with a metal lid with a small cutout for the pipes. I covered that hole with a starsan soaked cloth and a towel just to be on the safe side. Once the wort was cooled I'd switch of the LBP and let it settle then drain to fermentor without ever removing the kettle lid. Worked a treat and would chill boiling wort to pitching temps in about 30-40 mins IIRC.


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## ohgoodthinking99 (26/2/15)

donburke said:


> ... as i whirlpool via recirculating with the pump i found that the hopscreen would fill very quickly with pellets (i only use pellets), restricting the flow considerably, so i removed it and replaced with a pickup tube that goes all the way to the side of the pot, and is about 1cm off the base
> 
> this works much better for me


I'm interested to hear more about whirlpooling by recirculating with a pump. I plan to do this, post boil, whilst hot, in my kettle. And only pump out to a counterflow chiller after whirlpooling. Obviously I don't want to blow air into my hot wort. I can prime before my pump, but how do you go about priming the line feeding back to the whirlpool to minimise oxygenation?


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## Eagleburger (26/2/15)

I use an over the side return pipe. It didnt whirlpool real well on account of the poor flow throught the chilling system etc. The other night I left my pot stand in the kettle after mash and behold, a respectable cone.


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## seehuusen (3/3/15)

I've made a whirlpool arm exactly like Eagleburger's, and I'm hoping I can get a better whirlpool happening in my keggle next brew.
Without it, I just end up with a whole lot of trub in my fermenter, which ideally, like the rest of you, I'd like to avoid


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## osprey brewday (17/7/15)

Im only a newby to all this and the whirl pool trub cone has me beat. Tried my first no chill a few months ago and seemed to eliminate all trub from the kettle perfect cone but last brew went back to immersion chiller whirl pool after chilling 

and could not clear the pick up from about 100mm from bottom of kettle picked up a plate chiller today so am going to whirlpool hot insulate kettle put lid on give it 15 then run out through the plate chiller with ice slurry in chiller will let u know how it goes


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## osprey brewday (17/7/15)

ohgoodthinking99 said:


> I'm interested to hear more about whirlpooling by recirculating with a pump. I plan to do this, post boil, whilst hot, in my kettle. And only pump out to a counterflow chiller after whirlpooling. Obviously I don't want to blow air into my hot wort. I can prime before my pump, but how do you go about priming the line feeding back to the whirlpool to minimise oxygenation?


I tried it with a keg king magnetic drive pump just seamed to blend all the crap together and make it worse I pulled from drain valve and made an arm to return to side not sure what I did wrong but did not work made it worse.


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## Camo6 (18/7/15)

osprey brewday said:


> Im only a newby to all this and the whirl pool trub cone has me beat. Tried my first no chill a few months ago and seemed to eliminate all trub from the kettle perfect cone but last brew went back to immersion chiller whirl pool after chilling
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've found I get a much better trub cone when no-chilling compared to using an IC. I reckon you're right that the pump is blending the break and undoing the work of any finings you're using. I used to use a little brown pump to recirc while chilling in a keggle but never got the murky wort like in your pic. Now I just use a long handled T piece of SS in a cordless drill to whirlpool. Let it sit 15mins and gives a great trub cone. Out of interest, is your return arm on a horizontal plane?


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## osprey brewday (18/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> I've found I get a much better trub cone when no-chilling compared to using an IC. I reckon you're right that the pump is blending the break and undoing the work of any finings you're using. I used to use a little brown pump to recirc while chilling in a keggle but never got the murky wort like in your pic. Now I just use a long handled T piece of SS in a cordless drill to whirlpool. Let it sit 15mins and gives a great trub cone. Out of interest, is your return arm on a horizontal plane?


yes it was horizontal and curved to the pot radius returned about half way down the wort used it while chilling and to form a whirlpool when chiller removed the merky pic doesent show it to well but there is clear wort [pilsner I think that one was] on top of the break it just took ages to settle once it got to that level and no clump.


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## osprey brewday (2/8/15)

mastered the whirlpool. first brew with the plate chiller. whirlpool about 10 mins after flame out, wrapped up kettle in sleeping bag lid on left for 30 mins for whirlpool to stop and settle. ran out at 90degrees into plate chiller 9 deg c out of plate chiller using immersion chiller in a ice bath as a pre chiller. I found the trick is not to remove the lid no peeking and pull burner out from under kettle also first 10 mins after flame out cool down around bottom of kettle stand I used a fan but don't leave it on turn off after 10 mins. Perfect trub cone I was able to push pick up all the way to floor of kettle with no break or hop matter that's a first for me. 
Whirlpool done with a plastic spoon for about 40 secs.


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## Wolfman (7/8/15)

Thinking of using a pump and a whirlpool arm for the whirlpool in the brau. Anyone doing this? I tried it with the mark 1 pump from keg king but didn't get the best result. I'm thinking the heat of the wort may have contributed to the lack of flow. I have had a look on line and it looks as though the new pumps from keg King are rated up to 120c. Anyone using one of these pumps to whirlpool?


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