# Tastes Like Chemicals?



## ckoerntjes (2/10/09)

Ok... So me and my mate have put down two brews neither of which have been up the scratch...

The first was a coopers pale, made with the yeast recommended by the brew shop and 1kg of malt also recommended by the brew shop (I now know to remember whatever goes in my brew.). Anyway obvious problems were that we followed the coopers directions and brewed it too warm (25 degrees.) and probably left it in the fermenter too long (we were paranoid it hadn't finished and didnt have a hydrometer yet.)

Anyway we bottled the stuff and were really excited when we opened the first one...until we tasted it. Carbonation was lovely (hell of a lot of yeast in the bottom of the bottle though.) but it tasted like beer mixed with a chemical of some sort . (We used no rinse sanitiser and everything was spotless before we started) This chemical taste was especially strong in the yeast sediment in the bottom.

After struggling through that bad lot we put down a brewcraft little creatures clone. (used everything in the box and didn't leave it in the fermenter too long (about 1 week).) When that was done and bottled we opened and it tasted better (had less sediment too) but still had the chemically flavour... We just put down a snowy mountains clone (Boxed kit) and are awaiting the results now..

Any ideas on getting rid of this chemically flavour????
(If your in SE Melbourne and fancy a taste it can be arranged)
Cheers.

(Apologies if I've missed info or don't make sense, I'm not much of a forumer.)


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## raven19 (2/10/09)

Hopefully brew #3 will be better.

The no rinse sanitiser should not leave a chemical taste in the beer.

I would arrange a test taste for some nearby brewers for sure.

Temperatures for the second brew?

Stick with it, it shall come good im sure.


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## bum (2/10/09)

I'm going to ask a pertinent (though potentially controversial) question: have you ever had homebrew before?


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## ckoerntjes (2/10/09)

bum said:


> I'm going to ask a pertinent (though potentially controversial) question: have you ever had homebrew before?



Once... it was a friends and he admits he did a rubbish job... I don't remember it very well (courtesy of the half slab of coopers I drank before hand). Why do you ask???


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## bum (2/10/09)

There is a flavour known as "kit twang" and I'm wondering if that is the flavour you're noticing.


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## kc_ksom (2/10/09)

OK I'll bite.

(I'm going to ask a pertinent (though potentially controversial) question: have you ever had homebrew before?)

What has that got to do with a chemical flavour, cause I dont know about your brew, but I can assure you that mine dont have any chemical flavour, lol..

casey


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

bum said:


> There is a flavour known as "kit twang" and I'm wondering if that is the flavour you're noticing.




+1

My exact thoughts Bum.

Isohops I have always suspected?


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## ckoerntjes (2/10/09)

Ummm... whats kit twang?
(sorry for my ignorance.)


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## Adamt (2/10/09)

"Kit twang" is a combination of:

-Acetaldehyde from a crap fermentation (cidery apple) -- this may not be a problem in this case as it was left for a while in the fermenter
-Metallic flavour from spoiled malt

Metallic could almost be called "medicinal"

Medicinal to me is a plasticcy (bandaid), spicy flavour caused by chlorophenols.

What cleaning/sanitising products did you use?


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## ckoerntjes (2/10/09)

Adamt said:


> "Kit twang" is a combination of:
> 
> -Acetaldehyde from a crap fermentation (cidery apple) -- this may not be a problem in this case as it was left for a while in the fermenter
> -Metallic flavour from spoiled malt
> ...


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## bum (2/10/09)

Adamt said:


> "Kit twang" is a combination of:
> 
> -Acetaldehyde from a crap fermentation (cidery apple) -- this may not be a problem in this case as it was left for a while in the fermenter
> -Metallic flavour from spoiled malt



I disagree with this. I agree that these are flavours that might be commonly found in kit brews but I think this is more process based than anything else. I've never had any cidery notes to any of my kits and I've definitely never had a metallic taste - however, no matter how hard I try there is always a common "twang" in all of my kits beers (a flavour that is not present in my extract beers). Not suggesting for a minute that my brewing practices are perfect, by any means, but that disappointing "twang" was the first thing that came to mind when I saw he had a common bad flavour between different styles/brands of kit with (presumably) different fermentables and somewhat different processes.


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## bum (2/10/09)

kc_ksom said:


> OK I'll bite.



I'm not trying to piss anyone off here. I do kit brews and I'd never tell anyone not to. 



ckoerntjes said:


> (sorry for my ignorance.)



Not at all. We're _all_ learning here. Well, those of us who don't think we already have all the answers anyway. Welcome aboard.


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

Two things I have suspected about kits. One is the tin is generally a galvanised tin of which a malt concentrate which is very mildly acidic is placed in. I reckon this imparts a tinny/chemical/twang flavour. Secondly isohops which I have had concentrate by itself imparted a simular taste. To me that is. Maybe I am overly sensitive to it but I can taste a kit a mile away. i found when I went to extract that common taste went completely away.


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## bum (2/10/09)

The only thing that is stopping me from happily blaming the can itself is the fact that I've done an all liquid extract brew and that taste should have been there if that was the reason. You're probably right about the isohops - but then why don't certain mega-brews have the twang?

The only way to get a definitive answer is for someone to do an AG brew with isohops only. You volunteering, Chappo?

[EDIT: spelling like a drunk]


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

bum said:


> The only thing that is stopping me from happily blaming the can itself is the fact that I've done an all liquid extract brew and thet taste should have been there if that was the reason. You're probably right about the isohops - but then why don't certain mega-brews have the twang?
> 
> The only way to get a definative answer is for someone to do an AG brew with isohops only. You volunteering, Chappo?




Fark no Bum! I'll take one for the boys as you know but i draw the line at isohops, sorry mate.

I get you your point with extract but it also does have some 200+ IBU's of isohops in there plus all the other crap? Be interesting to take a pH of a can of goop, no?

Chap Chap


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## bum (2/10/09)

Oh. Is the suggestion that the isohops reacts with the metal? I can see how that might happen (whether it actually could or not is beyond me, however).

Interesting idea.


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## Adamt (2/10/09)

The kit tins are plastic lined, if I recall correctly, there shouldn't be any leaching.

I'll still maintain that the twang is stale malt (and often this accompanies acetaldehyde in the real 2kg-of-sugar+28C kit beers), Palmer mentions it under "Metallic" in the common off-flavours section as hydrolysis of lipids in the extract (to a fatty acid/carboxylic acid? Probably chemistry fail.) I'm guessing whatever is leftover gets decomposed/driven off in the boil.

EDIT: While there is 200IBU of alpha acids in there, there is also a shiteload of solids, so alpha acid mixture in the tin would be very slow and exposure of alpha acid to the actual tin would also be low.


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

Well my theory relies on the higher concentration of Alpha Acids in the isohops. Acids being the word here reacting with the galvanised coating. Pure speculation :icon_cheers:


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## AntCoop (2/10/09)

I do all liquid extracts all the time now with steeping and my own hopping.( I get fresh liquid extract from work)

One thing I have really noticed is the better flavour and non ISOhop twang I used to get from K&K cans. 

Yes there really is a massive difference with your own hopping instead of isohop can bitterness IMO.

The verdict is kits no more for me...Hop your own!

Coops :icon_cheers: 

Edit : got to have good temperature control when fermenting or it don't mean jack!


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## ckoerntjes (2/10/09)

Oooookaaayyy... Most of what just happened flew way over my head like a C-130..
.
So am I doing something wrong? Or is it just the tins? (I do stress that I don't consider the coopers brew drinkable and the little creatures clone only just bearable so if the kit twang is supposed to be a rather subtle flavour then I don't think it's that.). 

If it is the tin obviously getting a can with furthest use by date would ease that problem...
Could it be that both the little creatures and coopers cans had been sitting on the shelf for too long?
Should I stick with doing the same brew multiple times trying to sort out this flavor or keep experimenting with different kits?

Btw I should mention I am in no position to begin AG brews.


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## bum (3/10/09)

ckoerntjes said:


> So am I doing something wrong? Or is it just the tins?


Could be one or the other. Or even a little of both. Really hard to be sure without tasting it. The same taste between brews rules out it being something specific to one tin, though.



ckoerntjes said:


> (I do stress that I don't consider the coopers brew drinkable and the little creatures clone only just bearable so if the kit twang is supposed to be a rather subtle flavour then I don't think it's that.).


I've noticed the kit twang bothers me more than it does some mates (both brewers and non-brewers). I don't find the twang to be subtle at all - maybe it's one of those thing that it either bothers you or it doesn't? Of course you're right, it is more than possible that the taste is something else entirely.



ckoerntjes said:


> If it is the tin obviously getting a can with furthest use by date would ease that problem...
> Could it be that both the little creatures and coopers cans had been sitting on the shelf for too long?
> Should I stick with doing the same brew multiple times trying to sort out this flavor or keep experimenting with different kits?


Always a good idea, Especially if you're using the kit yeast.
Entirely possible.
The theory is sound but life is too short.



ckoerntjes said:


> Btw I should mention I am in no position to begin AG brews.


Most would agree with this. The consensus is pretty much that it is a good idea to get a real understanding of the fundamentals first.

Good luck with number 3!


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## marksfish (3/10/09)

probaly a silly question, did you use the correct amount of sanitizer for no rinse.

only asking as i have screwed up many times by not reading instructions :icon_cheers:


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## Scruffy (3/10/09)

Dude, what's your method?

I used to boil the crap out of my kit goo (30 or 40 minutes) that seemed to mellow the isohop out a bit. I also used to add LME and my own hops... and let it fester for a week or so after it finished obviously fermenting.
Try making one style (one you like, eh?!), but split the kit if you can, so half done like you would normally and half done kind of like the above, try and help the fermenting temperature of the brew match the style. You say it's very chemical tasting, can you describe it? Band Aid? Metalic? Sour milk? Vinegar? Battery acid? Dog worming tablets (no idea what they taste like?!)...

- edit- oh, and try a new wyeast [sic]... you could try all the above suggestions together, or one at a time, so you know if something changes the taste...


yeah, ok, it's your third brew... boil the crap out of it, add some LME (light malt extract powder), have a look into controlling your temperatures and maybe try S-04 or S-05 (Nottingham etc... let the guys here know what your brewing, and they could suggest a reasonably priced yeast)...

Good luck mate!


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## Thunderlips (3/10/09)

ckoerntjes said:


> Brewshield sanitiser... Everything was thoroughly cleaned by my mate after the previous brews bottling. All we did was rinse in hot water and sanitise. Could it have been the detergent he used? (Even though it was all thoroughly rinsed?)


I think that Brewshield sanitiser needs at least 10 minutes or so of contact time to sanistise.
Have you been doing that?

I like Starsan since it only needs about 2 minutes and it froths up nicely so stays in contact with the plastic longer.
You also only need to use 1.5ml per litre and if your really tight it can even be re-used.

As for detergent. Why even use that stuff?
When I've emptied my fermenter into a keg I just give it a good rinse and sponge with water from the hose.
Some might sanitise after use but I don't bother and only ever sanitise before use.

Edit: the only time I ever got a chemical type taste from a kit was when I used to sanitise with bleach and didn't rinse properly.
Other than that I can't ever recall a chemical taste from kits.
As some have mentioned, extract brewing is so much better and it's not that hard. You just need a big stock pot, 20 litres is good, unhopped malt, some fresh hop pellets and 60 minutes of boil time.


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## jdsaint (3/10/09)

+1 for scruffy
I totally agree thats what I do, add 500mls water to a pot let it boil. add your can of goo stir it so it mixes in, add you LME and stir let it boil slowly, add some hops if you like I prefer t-bag when I am doing this method, and as per scruffy boil it for around 30-40 mins put it in the fermenter and fill as normal....

Also if you can boil your water the night before the brew , let it cool before you use it!
Buy the same can of goo, mix your ingredients as well with each batch, also has anyone suggested to you to leave it in the bottle for around 10-12 weeks before drinking? try the brew if you dont like it then leave it longer, the best ingredient you can get for your beer is TIME!


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## Pennywise (3/10/09)

What type of pot are you using? Could be a possible cause.


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## Pennywise (3/10/09)

Also possibly oxidation combined with high ferment temps?


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## goomboogo (3/10/09)

ckoerntjes, you mentioned in the initial post that the first beer was fermented at 25c. Something you now know is not recommended for most yeasts. You haven't mentioned what the fermentation temperature was for the second beer. Are you doing anything to keep the temps down? In addition to factors such as old malt extract as mentioned by previous posters, fermentation temps are going to have an enormous affect on the outcome. I don't know if this is producing the flavour you are describing as chemical as different people describe flavours with different terms. Your suggestion of having experienced brewers taste the beers is a good one. They will be able to point you in the right direction.

It may be disheartening right now but you can be assured that many people are producing spectacular beers and you will very soon be making beers that you are happy with. Getting on top of the fundamentals early on will set you on the path to good beers. You will get there.


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## The Big Burper (3/10/09)

ckoerntjes



Try a Morgans kit, they roll boil the wort with real hops and don't use 
any isohop. Stockmans Draught is a goodie.

I have never encountered a "kit twang" with Morgans, but have had some shockers
from Coopers kits.

Fermenting at 25 will not give a chemical taste, I did it all the time out in the sticks.

The real secret is to leave it in the bottle for at least 6 weeks before drinking.

cheers
BB


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## Nick JD (3/10/09)

If you want beer that tastes like "homebrew", use kits (I've never been able to make a kit beer as good as an hopped extract beer). 

If you don't - learn about extract brewing. Just as easy, much tastier, slightly more expensive. Worth it.


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## ckoerntjes (3/10/09)

Wow... thanks for all the suggestions guys (and for your quick response.). 

Goom.. When we did the coopers we had it on a heating pad to maintain the 25 degrees. With the second we didn't use the pad but (still not being aware of the proper temp required) but it may have still been a but high...

The method we had been following is as follows:
Warm can in hot water.
Pour into fermenter
Boil a couple of litres of water (i think it was 3 or four)
Use boiled water to rinse out can into fermenter
Add malt extract and stir thoroughly.
Bring fermenter level to 23l mark and wait to cool to required temp
Add yeast.


If this brew is no dice (bottling today) I'll try boiling the wort up before we put it into the fermenter next.


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## Pennywise (3/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> If you want beer that tastes like "homebrew", use kits.



I don't agree with this, I've used (and still do, as well as partials & extracts) to brew and although it does take some skill to make a kit good, It can be done easliy if you learn the profile of the kit and know exactly what you want. There has been numerous times when people have tried my kit"n"bit beers and almost cum in their pants, and I've had the same thing happen with my partials/extracts, although funnily enough not as much as the kits. I guess that shows where my main skill is hey, but it can be done. All IMO of course :icon_cheers:


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## QldKev (3/10/09)

bum said:


> I'm going to ask a pertinent (though potentially controversial) question: have you ever had homebrew before?




I also wonder have you ever done a decent home brew too; go away idiot!!!!


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## bum (3/10/09)

You're an absolute legend, mate. Top quality stuff there. Can't wait to see how much that helps ckoerntjes find his problem.

Eat a dick, pal.


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## Nick JD (3/10/09)

Homebrewer79 said:


> I don't agree with this, I've used (and still do, as well as partials & extracts) to brew and although it does take some skill to make a kit good, It can be done easliy if you learn the profile of the kit and know exactly what you want. There has been numerous times when people have tried my kit"n"bit beers and almost cum in their pants, and I've had the same thing happen with my partials/extracts, although funnily enough not as much as the kits. I guess that shows where my main skill is hey, but it can be done. All IMO of course :icon_cheers:



I agree whole heartedly. I can also crank out a kit that makes people go "yum". 

However  , those who are just beginning want beer cheap and want beer good and often want beer easy too. IMO, the best step any new brewer can be encouraged to do is to learn about extract brewing. In doing so they are _forced _into learning the finer points of Beer. They get to see Beer undressed for the first time ... and often this establishes a love they never thought possible.

Convincing kit brewers onto Extract Brewing is my new Evangelism because to know the beer is to love the beer. Amen.


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## Pennywise (3/10/09)

Yes true, I was the same when I started brewing, wanted it now and wanted it easy (and quite frankly was happy with the crap I was making). It did take me quite some time to get the goods out of kits, and hopefully ckoerntjes can take something from us and get it down quicker than I did thanks to the WWW.

On a side note, the amen thing just doesn't do it for me :lol: :lol: :lol: . Yeah I know, I'm a dick

Edit: That was wierd, just got flood controlled and my computer at home is that slow it would have taken me at least 5 mins to post anything anywhere


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## seravitae (3/10/09)

ckoerntjes

A few things I would suggest that would probably make a massive difference to your entire homebrewing experience, and I believe dispite your comment about AG not being possible (this is fine) there are some easier things you can do to try to make things go your way.

Firstly, if you are local, make friends with a brewer who is experienced. They can quite easily and quickly tell you what's wrong or how to improve. A taste of a beer is worth 1000 words.

Secondly, temperature temperature temperature! Even if you have to scrounge around for a second hand beaten-up fridge, beg and offer your product to mates, do whatever you need to get yourself a fridge and ferment at the correct temps. This is often heralded by brewers here as one of the most fundamental quality-enhancing factors of their product. In the case where you need a heating pad to get up to temps, use the correct temperatures, ignore what the kit packet says. You'll find the correct temp ranges for particular yeasts or beer styles on this forum or someone else may pipe in with them.

Thirdly, it is well established that kits (esp. coopers) need mega bottle conditioning times before they are passable. 6 weeks was mentioned here, I have seen other brewers suggest even longer.

Fourthly, consider BIAB. (Boil in a bag) - This can be done on near prison-inmate budgets, space requirements and time. While maybe by some, not fully appreciated as "all grain", the matter of the fact is, it is all grain, easy to do, and for the quality of the product you get plus the ability to vary your batches to taste, is well worth the 'trouble' - though there really isnt any. 

There are plenty of BIAB threads where people have made a danm good drop by using a pillowcase, 1 cheap stockpot on their stove, some grain and a mate's recepie.


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## manticle (3/10/09)

BIAB is all grain beyond dispute since it utilises grains and nothing but grains for its sugar content. Whatever criticisms brewers may have of the method it can't be seen as anything but an all grain brewing process.

@OP: It's all been mentioned but freshness of kit, cleanliness of equipment, temperature control and patience while fermenting (allow to ferment out then wait a few more days before bottling) will all help make any kit taste like beer rather than bad HB.

Next brew try leaving the fermenter for 2 days after it's fully fermented, then place it in the fridge for another 2 days before bottling. You will get a cleaner tasting beer and less sediment in the bottles. When bottling, leave behind the last litre. You can also add finings a day or 2 before bottling to reduce sediment.


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## ckoerntjes (15/10/09)

Sorry for my extended absence. (Bought a new computer)

Alrighty.. so the Snowy Mountain came out of the fermenter and into the bottles two weeks ago (only was in the fermenter a week but, gravity was steady and my mates dad wanted to brew his stout)

Anyway so far its absolute rubbish.... Less chemically but just distinctly average beer... (The chemical flavour is still there somewhat though (I reckon a little like metho))

But for planning the next brew I was thinking of doing a toucan...
2 Coopers pale
1 Cascade hops boiled for 5 mins and drained in.
Safale yeast. 

This would be a relatively foolproof kit to make yes?
(I'll also try to boil the cans with water before we add them.)


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## manticle (15/10/09)

If it tastes like metho it could be fusel alcohols. Higher temperatures are usually the cause as well as insufficient yeast or poor yeast health or lack of oxygen to the yeast early during growth.

This page might help you identify what you're tasting - unstable temps can also lead to the production of esters, some of which taste like fruits and some of which taste like nail polish remover (acetone).

http://www.homebrewzone.com/off-flavors.htm

Get a fresh tin.
Get some new yeast that is within useby and has been kept in the fridge. Try safale US05 which comes in 11.5 gram packs and ferments clean and neutral.
When you mix the goop and water use a clean sanitised whisk to aerate everything
Ferment at 18 degrees, constantly until finished then leave for another week.
Make sure you leave the bottles to condition for a good few weeks (try 4 weeks)


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## wynnum1 (16/10/09)

manticle said:


> If it tastes like metho it could be fusel alcohols. Higher temperatures are usually the cause as well as insufficient yeast or poor yeast health or lack of oxygen to the yeast early during growth.
> 
> This page might help you identify what you're tasting - unstable temps can also lead to the production of esters, some of which taste like fruits and some of which taste like nail polish remover (acetone).
> 
> ...


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## manticle (16/10/09)

?


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## bum (16/10/09)

+1?


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## Pennywise (16/10/09)

+2? :huh:

Possibly new to forums and didn't quite figure it out?


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## bum (16/10/09)

Sorry, I was being a bit obtuse there. I was wondering if his post constituted a "+1".


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## zebba (16/10/09)

It happened to me once before and I'll swear on the atheist bible that I had actually written stuff and it got lost sometime after I hit "Add Reply".


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## Fermented (23/10/09)

bum said:


> Sorry, I was being a bit obtuse there. I was wondering if his post constituted a "+1".



Happens to me in Firefox under Vista occasionally too. Weird. 


Someone commented about stale malt giving a metallic taste. I can't say I've had it from a can, but only from the bulk pails of unhopped malt (28 kg). I didn't float some vodka on top of one honey pail of it and left it for about six months - only a few kg at the bottom of the pail. It was certainly oxidised and wasn't nice at all. Now I only buy LDME bulk and just grab cans of unhopped extracts when I want to play with other styles and types. 

The only can I have had which tasted like chemicals was Cerveza. Tasted like aspirin until a month or so of bottle conditioning. I won't be making it again as have migrated SWMBO to proper ales, etc.


Cheers - Fermented.


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## ckoerntjes (27/10/09)

Yay so I left the Snowy Mountain Pale for another four or so weeks. And now it tastes like drinkable beer... A little shallow (Lacking body) but certainly not disgusting... Thanks all for your help...


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## D.lycle (29/10/09)

####s are fun.

Doin your freind is better.

But with a #### you might get an STD which is kinda cool. I mean its like a chance game "Wonder if im gonna get an STD this time?"


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## under (29/10/09)

manticle said:


> If it tastes like metho it could be fusel alcohols. Higher temperatures are usually the cause as well as insufficient yeast or poor yeast health or lack of oxygen to the yeast early during growth.
> 
> This page might help you identify what you're tasting - unstable temps can also lead to the production of esters, some of which taste like fruits and some of which taste like nail polish remover (acetone).
> 
> ...



+3 - Exactly what i was about to type up.


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## under (29/10/09)

ckoerntjes said:


> Yay so I left the Snowy Mountain Pale for another four or so weeks. And now it tastes like drinkable beer... A little shallow (Lacking body) but certainly not disgusting... Thanks all for your help...



You can get a bit more out of your brew by steeping speciality grains and adding them into your kit. Or pissing off the kits and moving up to extract/grain brewing. Which is a noticable step up from kits, but a little more expensive


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