# AHB Wiki: Keg Spear Removal II



## deckedoutdaz (21/7/07)

This is the discussion topic for article: Keg Spear Removal II


----------



## deckedoutdaz (21/7/07)

HI all, in relation to the Keg Spear Removal, keep in mind that its soo important to empty all the gas before even thinking about tempting this, the reason that you can not purchase these kegs is because of the dangers involved.

But anyway, if you were going to use these kegs and you aquired them legally somehow, if you put a small cut from a grinder in the top of the spear neck as per photo, its extremely easy to lever out the circlip.

Remember to make sure all pressure is released.


----------



## deckedoutdaz (21/7/07)

HI all, in relation to the Keg Spear Removal, keep in mind that its soo important to empty all the gas before even thinking about tempting this, the reason that you can not purchase these kegs is because of the dangers involved.

But anyway, if you were going to use these kegs and you aquired them legally somehow, if you put a small cut from a grinder in the top of the spear neck as per photo, its extremely easy to lever out the circlip.

Remember to make sure all pressure is released.


----------



## paul (21/7/07)

If you plan on using one of these replace the snapring with a circlip to make removal easier.


----------



## deckedoutdaz (22/7/07)

That again, would be much easier!


----------



## Andyd (23/7/07)

deckedoutdaz said:


> That again, would be much easier!



I (would) drill 2 2mm holes in each end of the clip and use circlip pliers to remove and replace the original...


----------



## LethalCorpse (2/4/08)

Made a few edits


----------



## ausdb (2/4/08)

Andyd said:


> I (would) drill 2 2mm holes in each end of the clip and use circlip pliers to remove and replace the original...


Sorry to burst your bubble but have you ever tried to drill a hole in spring steel? just go and buy an internal circlip rather than waste drill bits


----------



## domonsura (2/4/08)

I wouldn't be grinding any bits out, it's not necessary. I posted the wiki article about this, you don't need to annihilate a keg to remove the spear...I thought the photo tutorial made that obvious....
Replacing the snap ring with a sirclip is a good idea though!

I have re-edited the wiki post to remove what I consider to be silly heavy handed suggestions...PLEASE DO NOT edit that wiki article with recommendations of damaging the keg to remove the sirclip...you have missed the entire point of the post, and that was doing the job without having to damage the vessel.......
If you wish to recommend another process, please list an alternative additional one instead of butchering an article I wrote to clarify a process that DOES NOT NEED A GRINDER....... ......


----------



## LethalCorpse (2/4/08)

It's not always possible to remove the circlip without grinding or drilling. Depending on the angle on the end of the clip and the tools available, it can be damn near impossible, because the tool needs to be both extremely small at the tip, and very strong in order to apply enough force. A small, careful notch with the angle grinder doesn't affect the form or function of the keg, and gets the job done quickly and easily.


----------



## domonsura (2/4/08)

With all due respect, I disagree. It is ALWAYS possible to do this job without damaging the keg. They are designed to be removed and unless someone has mangled the keg neck, it is always possible.


----------



## LethalCorpse (2/4/08)

Well, you're the expert. It may always be possible. But it's definitely not always easy, particularly if you're _not_ an expert. I dunno what tool you're using there (the article doesn't specify), but the only screwdriver I've got which would be small enough to get in there is also too flexible to be useful. Perhaps most people reading the article will be better prepared, but if not, or if they don't care about keeping the keg pristine (particularly if they're about to carve into it and the grinder is already plugged in), the article now shows them both options.


----------



## domonsura (2/4/08)

That's fine - I understand where you're coming from ...but please just write another article specifying an alternative procedure for those who don't care about the keg. Please don't butcher mine, as it was intended to show a 'non-damaging' way to do it, and I do not condone damaging kegs......


----------



## LethalCorpse (2/4/08)

Three points: First, the article doesn't say anywhere that it's intended to show a non-damaging way to do it. Second, by far the majority of people removing the spear from one of these kegs intend to then cut the top off, thereby damaging it far more than the notch. Third, it's a wiki, not a pulpit. The idea is that any article can be edited by anyone if they feel they can add to the body of knowledge. You might not like to cut a notch, the people who read the article might be happy to, or they might agree with you. They now have both options, and can choose for themselves which is better. If I'd deleted half your article, I'd understand your irritation. Since I've only added further information to it, I don't understand your problem. I note that you're not concerned that I also suggested laying the keg on its side first to avoid a beer shower, or emphasised that the spear unscrews clockwise because it's easy to get that wrong and try to force it the wrong way.


----------



## domonsura (2/4/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Three points: First, the article doesn't say anywhere that it's intended to show a non-damaging way to do it. Second, by far the majority of people removing the spear from one of these kegs intend to then cut the top off, thereby damaging it far more than the notch. Third, it's a wiki, not a pulpit. The idea is that any article can be edited by anyone if they feel they can add to the body of knowledge. You might not like to cut a notch, the people who read the article might be happy to, or they might agree with you. They now have both options, and can choose for themselves which is better. If I'd deleted half your article, I'd understand your irritation. Since I've only added further information to it, I don't understand your problem. I note that you're not concerned that I also suggested laying the keg on its side first to avoid a beer shower, or emphasised that the spear unscrews clockwise because it's easy to get that wrong and try to force it the wrong way.



You added the clockwise information? Which way am I tapping the pliers in the photo? Your added information was un-necessary as a picture speaks a thousand words...

I am not specifying removal so you can then cut the top out - I made that VERY clear at the beginning of the article. If I was doing that, I would use a plasma cutter/cutting disc after drilling a small hole as it's not necessary to mess with the spear at all if that's what you're going to do.....your method has a very different end result/target audience....

And like I said...if you want to specify a DIFFERENT METHOD......write ANOTHER ARTICLE and put a link in to that article. You edit a wiki article when it's INCORRECT, not just because you feel like it....& sometimes a poorly thought add or un-necessary addition to an article changes the context of the original message which is what I feel you've done with your additions. You've turned a keg spear removal article into a 'butcher your keg/how to illegally modify a keg' article....and I am a retailer... I can't afford to be associated with that kind of bullshit - hence my reaction....there's no pulpit involved at all, I just happen to have a bit of experience in doing the job PROPERLY and wanted to share a way of doing the job that allowed you to be able to put it all back together with no damage.TO CLEAN THE VESSEL.....not rip it open with power tools..but that's fine, you do what you want... I won't bother to share the right way to do something again, since apparently in leiu of that you can do everything with an angle grinder .... :blink:


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

RDWHAHB there mate. It's not worth grabbing your bat and ball and going home. If you're not happy having your work modified and added to, you should post it on your website, not in a wiki that allows, nay, encourages editing. Nothing I wrote there (or here) should be interpreted as disrespectful of your contribution or your method. The wiki is a collaborative source of information, and this is a discussion. Don't mistake them for graffiti and abuse. 

Pictures speak a thousand words, but DIYers can be hasty folk. When presented with something that screws, we assume it undoes counterclockwise, and a photo of it being turned clockwise won't automatically change that, because we know how to unscrew something, and won't look for alternatives unless our attention is drawn to them. Even the word clockwise doesn't immediately change your mind, for the same reason. It's the sort of thing that needs big flashing lights, or can be overlooked. If I was attempting to remove a keg spear, the extra warning would help me. It might help others.

It's not a very different end result, or a very different target audience. The spear is still out, and the target audience is still the homebrewer intending to take the spear out of a keg - whether (s)he then intends to clean it and fill it with beer, or empty it of beer and cut the top off. It's not necessary to remove the spear before cutting the top off, but it may still be desirable, for example if one wishes to use an angle-grinder jig as shown in a video of the process. If the objective is to clean and reuse the keg, cutting a notch still achieves this - as I said, it doesn't affect the form or function of the keg, unless you're a complete purist.

I think it would be ridiculous to post a new article solely for the information I've added here. It's the same subject, the same process, with an extra option as to how to get the circlip out. There are seven articles in the tools and equipment section, you think three of them should be on how to pull a spear? There are probably a few other ways to get them out too, for example, quite a lot of people would balk at the idea of hitting one tool with another. Should each of them post their own article on how to get the spear out? If my extra information couldn't be easily included with yours, I would have made a new article, but this is simply a few extra lines augmenting your own.

You edit a wiki article to correct, improve or add to it. As I said above, it's a collaborative tool, which means that anyone can, and should, contribute information. If inappropriate changes are made, they can be undone, but the original author should not be the only arbiter of a change's propriety, and should not view their own work proprietarily. The idea that edits can only be made to correct goes against the entire philosophy of a wiki system. My reference to a pulpit was by way of saying that this is not a one-way flow of information, and the person who first presents it does not, and should not, have complete control over what happens to it afterwards. 

I resent the statement that my addition turns the article into an instruction for illegal activity. Nowhere do I suggest that anyone should attempt this on a keg that they do not legally own. If the keg isn't legally owned, why should anyone attempt to remove the spear and clean it out for reuse? Perhaps you think it's not illegal for a person to use a brewery-owned keg in their own home for dispensing homebrew indefinitely, provided they don't modify it in any way and can return it when the brewery comes a-calling? I don't think that the absence of modifications allows one to use the "I was only 'angin' on to it for 'em, guv, honest!" defence. If someone is pulling the spear from a keg, they should own it outright, and therefore they are free to modify it in any way they see fit.

I greatly appreciate your contribution of information, products and services to this community, as, I'm sure, does everyone else. Don't stop doing that because I've said that your way to do something isn't the only way, or necessarily the "right way". The right way to do something is whatever the end user decides to do, based on the available information.


----------



## domonsura (3/4/08)

I disagree with a number of the things you've said there, not the least of which being you questioning whether I have a firm grasp of what 'illegal use of kegs' means. After nearly 2 decades in the liquor supply and hospitality trades at almost every level I have a better understanding than most.....

Your editing of my original article was un-discussed, very hasty, and has changed the overall message into something it was not intended to be. Yes it has annoyed me. The article took time to write, was factually correct and conveyed a simple message of the correct method of removing a spear if you do not have the correct tool.
What annoys me most is that you did not discuss the edits prior to making them, & while my name is attached to it as the original writer, it conveyed a message that I totally disagree with (re: your recommended use of an angle grinder ) yet the perception to the un-informed is that I wrote the article, so the information comes from or is endorsed by me. OR MY BUSINESS. Which it is not. 

As for the rest, I guess your perception of the philosophy of a wiki is different to mine and that of many/most of the people who started the wiki phenomenon. The philosophy you extoll and your haste to edit someone else's article without discussion is one of the reasons wiki has unfortunately come to mean a 'good but sometimes in-accurate information resource that has to be interpreted very carefully.'.......That was not the intention of the creators of wiki. I guess their intention has been edited by people who 'knew a different way' also......

Overall I have better things to do than write articles that get edited later, resulting in people doing things that I don't agree with and wouldn't recommend - thinking that it's what I would do. You can play with the bat and ball. I'm just not going to throw the ball _to_ you again


----------



## FNQ Bunyip (3/4/08)

domonsura said:


> With all due respect, I disagree. It is ALWAYS possible to do this job without damaging the keg. They are designed to be removed and unless someone has mangled the keg neck, it is always possible.




+1 , Many years ago I used many tools too open my first keg , Broke a few things, bashed, chiseled, hit it with a grinder ect ect .. After carefully looking at what I had left I worked out how it went together... 

I then spent the next 5 years or so reuseing 50lt kegs continualy , I can pull a speer wash out with nappie san refill and reuse in about 15mins now with no power tools anywhere in site. 

I also recommend not damaging the keg in anyway as its good too return it too its owner after a couple of uses so it can have new seals fitted ..

LC , I've read a few of your replies of late and they are not always very helpful , this community is about HELPING other brewers too enjoy our hobby/obsession ..Dom did a VERY good artical and I wish that it was around 8 years ago ..Remover you unwanted edits , start your own keg removal topic, and try too have a positive outlook ...

RDWHAHB


Cheers


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

You haven't yet given any useful reason as to _why_ you disagree with using an angle grinder. You've implied that it's illegal, which it's not, and you've implied that it destroys the keg, which it doesn't. As I said in my original post, you don't need to go nearly as deep as the photo shows, it can be done without even damaging the circlip. You keep saying yours is the correct method, but who decided that your way's correct? Like I said, you want a one-way flow of information, post it on your website, or even in the forum where it can't be touched.

As to the philosophy of a wiki, take a look at the wikipedia page on wiki, and the about page that can be linked to from the wikipedia homepage. What's given there is as I've described it - you may think it was hasty, but it was well thought out, grammatically correct, technically accurate, and discussed beforehand. It was discussed in this thread back in July last year. Not by me, but I don't think that's relevant. Since there was no dissention in the discussion, it's a valid edit. If it had remained unchanged, my name would've been there as the last editor, right beside yours as the creator. If folks reading the wiki don't realise they're looking at a wiki, and ascribe all comments to the original poster, that's their problem, not that of the original poster or the editor.


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

FNQ Bunyip said:


> +1 , Many years ago I used many tools too open my first keg , Broke a few things, bashed, chiseled, hit it with a grinder ect ect .. After carefully looking at what I had left I worked out how it went together...
> 
> I then spent the next 5 years or so reuseing 50lt kegs continualy , I can pull a speer wash out with nappie san refill and reuse in about 15mins now with no power tools anywhere in site.
> 
> ...


There's only one person in this thread with a negative outlook mate. I don't see how more information and more options can be anything other than helpful, unless we're talking about enough extra information to cloud the issue entirely (which we're not). 

Refer me to specific replies of mine you're not happy with and we'll talk, preferably in their original threads.


----------



## domonsura (3/4/08)

NOW who's getting defensive LC.....how does it go? RDWHAHB???

Specifically I disagree with the use of an angle grinder, as it's not necessary and the article was detailing a how to WITHOUT using an angle grinder. Specifically, how to open it WITHOUT causing ANY damage. Your method causes damage. Any monkey can take a shortcut and cut something open with an angle grinder.

And I call it correct, because in lieu of having the correct tool (as I've already stated) it is the next easiest way to do the job without damaging the keg in any way. As far as I'm concerned, if it causes damage, then it's CLEARLY not the right way to do it. Pretty damned simple really. The same applies to the advice to 'use a screwdriver in the ball seal to release the pressure' I mean for crying out loud man!!!! It's a SEAL!!!

I'm not after 'one way information flow' or trying to grandstand as you seem to want to imply. I'm wanting to keep the article focused in the correct direction, and that is doing the job without causing ANY damage to the vessel. 
I didn't see the value in anything you added to the article. Turning the keg on it's side makes it unstable which is counterproductive. Using the angle grinder causes damage. I don't think it was unclear that the spear was being turned clockwise - the sequence of pictures is good enough. I have no control over DIY'ers being hasty to start forcing things in the wrong direction. 

So overall, I see it as an attempt on your part to put your 2 cents worth in where it's not needed in THIS particular case. Had you DISCUSSED your proposed changes before you made them, in THIS thread that was started (gee, is that what discussion thread means?) I might have had a chance to make my concerns known before you butchered the article up. You talk about things not being your problem if a reader can't figure the wiki flow out? When it's you that's interupted the flow in the first place? Most people just want to read the article, and don't bother reading the edits.........THAT'S one of the issues I have with people making edits...because they don't give a crap that they _may have_ made things less clear to the final reader - they just want to have some input. In any way they can in some cases it would appear........


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

domonsura said:


> NOW who's getting defensive LC.....how does it go? RDWHAHB???
> 
> Specifically I disagree with the use of an angle grinder, as it's not necessary and the article was detailing a how to WITHOUT using an angle grinder. Specifically, how to open it WITHOUT causing ANY damage. Your method causes damage. Any monkey can take a shortcut and cut something open with an angle grinder.
> 
> ...


Calm down domonsura. Your rhetoric is increasingly agitated, and it's not helpful. Note that I haven't made any attempt to reinstate my change after you unilaterally deleted it. I'm still here because I reckon vigorous and open debate is the only way to forward our collective understanding, so we're debating the issue at hand. That can't happen if any of the proponents is unwilling to listen to and address the arguments of the other side, or tries to "play the man instead of the ball". I'm playing the ball, and have from the start.

You disagree with my proposed method, but I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. I think it's pretty clear when looking at our combined efforts which way is more likely to keep the keg in pristine condition. If that's what the reader wants to do, the option is there for them. If they want to get it done quickly and that Jesus-clip is giving them grief, the angle grinder option is there too. I think the reader should be able to make up their own mind, given all of th possible options. They should be smart enough to ignore anything which doesn't suit them. 

You're keen to saddle me with all manner of unpleasant motives and attitudes. First I'm writing an instruction for illegal activity, now I'm just interested in sticking my oar in, indiscriminately butchering articles and kegs in my path. My objective was to assist the reader in the job of removing a spear, same as yours. I still think that my edit to the article was helpful, in that it provided more, or clearer, information to the reader, and did so without detracting from the original article in any way. I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't think so, and I wouldn't have kept defending it if my mind had been changed. I'm here to learn new information and pass on the things I've already learnt. If I think I can be helpful, I will, if I don't, I won't. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong, but I won't just be told that I'm wrong without arguing my case. That comment to bunyip in my last post wasn't defensive, it was serious - if I've posted something which he reckons isn't helpful, point it out and let's talk about it. I reckon any such post is going to be irrelevant to the proceedings here, though, and should be discussed in its associated thread.

I don't think you're grandstanding, that's an unfortunate interpretation of my pulpit reference. I think you're genuinely upset that something you put effort into working on had been changed, and I can appreciate that. I feel the same way about my edits being wiped and dismissed as butchering and illegality.


----------



## HKS (3/4/08)

There are plenty of places to buy the correct tool (Sanke knife) for removing the snap ring and its cheap. 

http://morebeer.com/view_product/7544/1034...25fb72475b47a97
http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/754...PSESSID=e3690d9
http://www.stpats.com/oakbarrels.htm


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

Very nice! Though why you'd need it if the keg's already got the keyways (the manufactured version of what I'm suggesting), I don't know.


----------



## domonsura (3/4/08)

I'm not agitated mate :lol: - that would be your interpretation of my 'rhetoric', it's not really any skin off my nose at all to be honest.....and I don't think we're going to achieve anything by debating further.
I stated why I dis-agreed with your method and statements and that's not going to change. Lets just leave it at that - you do what you want - but if I see something that presents information that would condone/recommend damaging a vessel, in an article that I am an author of and therefore mis-represents me or my business - I will 'unilaterally' (as you put it) remove it without discussion because I have a reputation to look after and I *will not be a part of recommending damage to a perfectly good keg.*

End of discussion.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (3/4/08)

Our old swan kegs (flat tops) are really easy to remove! another reason to move West. :icon_cheers:Healthy debate though.Angle grinders at 50 paces.  
GB


----------



## Linz (3/4/08)

I'm surprised the Mods haven't delete BOTH threads in relation to the topic, as these kegs are not legally allowed to be in your possession anyways!! therefore illegal activity......

Specifically Posts/Topics will be removed (at the discretion of the administrators/moderators) if:

They contain an unacceptable amount of offensive language
They are considered abusive
They threaten, slander or insult other AHB users
They are distasteful, vulgar or contain offensive pornographic material
*They discuss illegal material (such as spirit distilling and the unlawful acquisition of equipment (eg. brewery owned kegs).*
They are not in the context of the forum (eg are SPAM or requesting referral credits (eg. please click on this link so i get money)
They complain about moderation - PM is there for a reason
They are discussing administrative decisions - PM is there for a reason.


"look, ma, at all those worms crawling out of that can!!!" B)


----------



## domonsura (3/4/08)

So go ahead, delete both threads and the wiki article  Won't phase me one little bit, and it will definitely stop the debate


----------



## chovain (3/4/08)

Linz said:


> I'm surprised the Mods haven't delete BOTH threads in relation to the topic, as these kegs are not legally allowed to be in your possession anyways!! therefore illegal activity......



It's only illegal to have brewery owned kegs in your possession. This article applies to all Sankey kegs, regardless of their origin. There have been a number of threads in the past on how to legally get your hands on 50L kegs - I'm pretty sure they're Sankey.


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

I've one last question, which explains my initial comment that it's not always possible to remove the clip, and the edit in the first place. In the photos in the article, the ends of the clip are angled in the same direction, such that one makes an acute angle to the collar, and the other makes a reflex angle to the collar. You're able to get the point of the tool in behind the acute angle and lever it out. In the photos added to this thread, the ends of the clip are angled in opposite directions, such that they both make a reflex angle to the collar, leaving no easy way to get the point of a tool behind them and provide leverage - as I said, the tool has to have both a very fine point to get behind the sharp end of the clip, and be strong enough to lever it without bending. How should such a clip be removed?


----------



## bugwan (3/4/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> How should such a clip be removed?



Angle grinder  h34r:


----------



## LethalCorpse (3/4/08)

that's what I thought, but I wasn't game to say it


----------



## domonsura (3/4/08)

With a bit more care and patience...... I know it sounds like a big ask, but you just have to be able to get something in behind the clip. Some of them take more effort than others, but I've never had to take stronger measures with a keg unless someone had already tried to force it or smacked it with a hammer etc.....


----------



## schooey (3/4/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> How should such a clip be removed?



Drill a couple of 2mm holes in each end of the clip and use some circlip pliers


----------



## paul (3/4/08)

Im with Domonsura on this one. Ive opened about a dozen kegs with just an oring pick and a screwdriver to remove the snapring. As already stated replace it with a circlip.

Using a grinder is rough as guts.


----------

