# Has mash ph been an improvement for you?



## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

Just bought a cheap meter online out of curiosity. I'm wondering: has correcting mash ph made a difference you can actually taste, a possible difference to fermentation, or no noticeable difference at all?

Also, when do I correct ph, after mash in?


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## Jack of all biers (13/12/17)

Yes, yes and best/easiest correcting the pH down rather than up. Edit- After mash-in, but read below.

The best thing to-do is know your source water profile and predict the mash pH with brewers friend, Brun water or similar as they are fairly accurate. Then use you pH meter to test the result and correct if needed. If your source water profile is fairly accurate, I'd be surprised if you will need to correct though.


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## Danscraftbeer (13/12/17)

Yes. Although there is doubts in cheap pH meters being accurate.
Goal is (always has been for me) To get pH of mash correct without correcting. If you have to correct mash after mash in then you didnt get the mash right in the first place is my thinking anyway.
2% Acidulated malt in the grain bill gets me pH 5.2 to 5.4 everytime for long time now. The darker the beer with darker malts the less % of Acidulated. So a Stout for eg gets no Acidulated malt and hits the mark. Keeping it as simple as possible.
I may use tiny amounts of Phosphoric Acid (a few drops) to lower sparge water to between pH 5 to 6.


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## droid (13/12/17)

I believe changing the pH alters the mouthfeel in some way - I lowered my sparge water pH on all fruity pale ales and the taste is more acidic and that acidity alters the mouthfeel - imho


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## Danscraftbeer (13/12/17)

droid said:


> I believe changing the pH alters the mouthfeel in some way - I lowered my sparge water pH on all fruity pale ales and the taste is more acidic and that acidity alters the mouthfeel - imho


I think its an improvement IMO. Crisper. Its a bonus that my filtered water is rarely ever higher than pH 6. So a quick check and I just use straight filtered water no additions. Keeping to simple as possible routine.


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## droid (13/12/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I think its an improvement IMO. Crisper. Its a bonus that my filtered water is rarely ever higher than pH 6. So a quick check and I just use straight filtered water no additions. Keeping to simple as possible routine.


^and so someone like me with a pH of 7.2 out of the tap would need to ad acid (or something else lowering pH?) to replicate your pales for eg


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

This would make sense to me. It's something I 'think' I've been missing in quest to make commercial quality beer. I've got a list of things to alter next brew, being:

1. Mash ph
2. Oxygenating
3. Hydrating yeast
4. Purging bottles of oxygen

This list alone sounds like it should make quite a difference(?)



droid said:


> I believe changing the pH alters the mouthfeel in some way - I lowered my sparge water pH on all fruity pale ales and the taste is more acidic and that acidity alters the mouthfeel - imho


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## droid (13/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> This would make sense to me. It's something I 'think' I've been missing in quest to make commercial quality beer. I've got a list of things to alter next brew, being:
> 
> 1. Mash ph
> 2. Oxygenating
> ...



oh shityeah


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

I don't have anything to adjust the ph down with, but think that our coffee machine descaler is the actual acid recommended(?) So that'd be handy


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## Jack of all biers (13/12/17)

On my phone before, but here.


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## manticle (13/12/17)

Yes (to original question - I know nothing about your descaler)


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## Jack of all biers (13/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I don't have anything to adjust the ph down with, but think that our coffee machine descaler is the actual acid recommended(?) So that'd be handy



Ahhh..... just missed your post as I was posting my above. You think your descaler acid is the same. Umm.. Make sure you use food grade acid.

Also look here before you go do any adjustments.

EDIT - I'll expand in brief, as the Brun water site will set you straight. You can adjust the mash pH down with some calcium additions, such as Calcium chloride or Calcium sulphate. In short the calcium reacts with the natural phosphates in the grains and releases Hydrogen ions (which brings the pH down). for the longer version, do some reading starting with the link.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

It's 100% lactic acid. Found the msds. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know!  I should probably go o line and buy some from a brew shop


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## Jack of all biers (13/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> It's 40-50% lactic acid. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know!


Yeah, but what is the other 60-50%. Also food grade acid is cheap and I wouldn't be taking the risk. It might be fine, but don't say you weren't warned.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

Sorry mate, my bad. I've edited above. They say 100%, the other perventage is, fuq knows.. I'm not sure why that's in the sheet


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

Here T'is


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

Msds


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## Jack of all biers (13/12/17)

It can't be 100% unless it's a solid acid, so if it's a liquid acid then there must be at least some water added. It's probably one of those statements, like 100% pure natural ingredients listed on many products these days. Looking at the MSDS you've posted it looks like 30-50% lactic. That's a fair range to swing from, so suggests to me that the quality control of precision is not, well, precise!

A lot of HBS sell lactic or phosphoric acid, which are the two most commonly used. If you want you can use citric, tartaric or malic acids and the first two are a supermarket trip away. Read about them in the linked site above and you'll understand why lactic and phosphoric are more commonly used. But they are legitimate options.

Look for the sake of $15 or so for 500ml of food grad acid from Brewman or KK or one of the AHB sponsors then, I'd be avoiding an acid mix that MAY be ok for consumption, but isn't made with the same quality standards of acids that are.


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## Danscraftbeer (13/12/17)

droid said:


> ^and so someone like me with a pH of 7.2 out of the tap would need to ad acid (or something else lowering pH?) to replicate your pales for eg


I would but it may be more about filtered water. My tap water is ~pH 7.2 as well Thats the Melbourne water average. Now I've got a Pure Water Sytems filter and never looked back. Not trying to advertise for them but Melbourne water is of the best tap water in the world and I know far more experienced brewers than me use it straight and make no alteration to Melb tap water including added minerals/salts etc. 
Side by side taste my tap water then after the filter its so nice and soft and cleaner taste after the filter. For some reason (and a bonus for brewing I believe) after the filter its ~pH 5.8 to 6.2. I don't know why really but I'll take it.
Melbourne water does dose with chlorine periodically. It evaporates so quick to have a record able reading in the water profile. That's how I was lead to believe from unquotable sources. Thats why you can/do get a wif of chlorine in your tap water sometimes. 
I'm also an unquotable worthy source of information etc.


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## droid (13/12/17)

Some squeezed lemon will drop pH - you might not even need to drive to the shop.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/12/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Side by side taste my tap water then after the filter its so nice and soft and cleaner taste after the filter. For some reason (and a bonus for brewing I believe) after the filter its ~pH 5.8 to 6.2. I don't know why really but I'll take it.



The improvement in apparent flavour is likely to be as much from the removal of flavour active components* and residual chlorine than softness: the alkalinity in Melbourne water is very low. 

It is normal to get a pH around 6 in RO / DI water, due to the lack of cations to buffer the CO2 pickup.



* Australian water has a high level of colloidal polyphenols, possibly due to the eucalyptus leaves and bark in the catchments. I used to do some design work for a company that made high perfromance water purification systems, the principal engineer was frum Serth Effrika, he was the first person that pointed this out to me.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> It's 100% lactic acid. Found the msds. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know!  I should probably go o line and buy some from a brew shop



100% of the acid present is lactic. The concentration, however, is 88% or less.


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## wereprawn (13/12/17)

droid said:


> Some squeezed lemon will drop pH - you might not even need to drive to the shop.


When I started brewing, this was my "go to" method for better beer. Although that was around 30 years ago, and the instructions on the kits advised a kg of white sugar and ferment at silly high temps, you had to be pissed already to drink beer anyway, but it certainly did improve it.


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## Garfield (13/12/17)

IMHO tartaric acid is a great choice for PH adjustment without adding any random flavours. For this reason I would avoid lactic acid as it can contribute flavours of butter, dairy, protein, fat, vanilla and more. Might suit a funky stout or something but probably not pales or pils


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

Hmmm. If this is indeed true then we might as well not bother adjusting the ph if there's going to be another detriment to take it's place

Maybe I'll give the acid I have a try considering it will be such small amounts I don't expect any change in flavor. But I've been wrong before..


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## manticle (13/12/17)

I have used lactic multiple times (also the acid in acidulated/acid malt and naturally occurring in barley malt. I have never experienced any of Garfield's described flavours and I think you may need excessive lactic to experience any of those.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

It will be interesting to see how much, or little I need too. We have very soft water in Darwin and I've been adding around 4g chloride and 12g gypsum, not knowing what that's been doing to the mash (could be ok, could also be disastrous..) so the meter will be a good help


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## malt junkie (14/12/17)

To answer the OP No, but yes I know what it is, that is to say I don't know what it is in my mash , mainly due to controversy around PH meters: their cost; accuracy; and longevity; virginity; fragility (almost like having a wife). The fact most experienced brewers I know quit using PH meters once they're dialed also has me thinking I'll have another expensive bit of kit that I rarely use.

someone just throw me $20BN or so these things would be so much simpler. I could have my own umpalumpa's mixing the mash continually.... my aspirations aren't big but they're mine.


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## MHB (14/12/17)

Garfield said:


> IMHO tartaric acid is a great choice for PH adjustment without adding any random flavours. For this reason I would avoid lactic acid as it can contribute flavours of butter, dairy, protein, fat, vanilla and more. Might suit a funky stout or something but probably not pales or pils


I would think that Tartaric Acid would be a really bad choice, it is described as having a lingering sourness.
There is already lots of Lactic Acid in malt (90% of the acidity in pale malt) it fits better into the flavour profile of beer, Tartaric is used in wine and cider making but I have never seen it recommended (or even suggested by anyone who knows anything about brewing) for beer brewing.
The amount of lactic acid required to adjust pH is way under the "Lactic" flavour threshold so none of the off flavours you have listed will show - unless you use way too much or have a lactobacillus infection.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (14/12/17)

Major problem with tartaric is that potassium hydrogen tartrate is sparingly soluble in water and less so in alcohol solutions. Commonly precipitates out of wines that are stored cold.

Factoid: Rochelle salt (a contact semiconductor used for crystal detectors) is potassium sodium tartrate.


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## Garfield (14/12/17)

Fair call. Come to think of it I am passing of the advice from a wine maker.

As for residual sourness. Is lemon juice really a good choice?


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (14/12/17)

I use phosphoric acid as i already have it as a no rinse sanitizer. I check the mash pH after 5 mins and adjust IF NECESSARY, I have only adjusted once and I think I only added 3 mls, usually it is OK. I have started adjusting my sparge water down to 4.5, this only takes 1 ml or less depending on the volume.


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## mabrungard (14/12/17)

I wouldn't poo-poo acids like citric, tartaric, or lactic in brewing. They can all be used to add desirable flavor nuances to beer. But they can easily become excessive. With the popularity of those New England IPAs and their fruity nature, those acids could fit right in. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does support those acids.


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## captain crumpet (14/12/17)

I use phosphorus to lower pH. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but phosphorus is consumed by yeast during the growth stage, and is an important nutrient to have present in wort.


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## MHB (14/12/17)

One of the reasons I have avoided Phosphoric is if you look at the mechanism by which Ca Salts lower the pH, through the formation of insoluble Calcium Phosphate.
I have always wondered if adding more phosphoric would lower the available calcium, haven't really had a detailed look and have always had Lactic on hand. might be that Ca only reacts with Phosphate rather than Phosphoric.
Would need to be a better chemist than me to know without a lot of digging - maybe maburngard or LC can tell me.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (14/12/17)

MHB said:


> I have always wondered if adding more phosphoric would lower the available calcium, haven't really had a detailed look



Short answer is yes. Phosphoric acid is simply tri hydrogen orthophophate so it forms phosphate salts. 

The relevant mechanism here is the solubility product (Ksp), I can run you through the chemistry but it will have to wait until tomorrow, it's after 2100 and I still have two tanks to clean..


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (15/12/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Short answer is yes. Phosphoric acid is simply tri hydrogen orthophophate so it forms phosphate salts.
> 
> The relevant mechanism here is the solubility product (Ksp), I can run you through the chemistry but it will have to wait until tomorrow, it's after 2100 and I still have two tanks to clean..



Would that affect the taste of the beer? Oh and are you in the army now?


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## MHB (15/12/17)

More to the point we pay money to buy Ca salts, and acid, strikes me as odd to buy two things that to some extent are going to eliminate each other. Not only a small waste of money, it's going to play hob with your Ca calculations.
Was thinking about some other organic acids mentioned above, Calcium Tartrate is not very soluble (<0.4g/L) Calcium Citrate more soluble (<1g/L) Calcium Phosphate ~20g/L for one form, a practically insoluble gem grade mineral for other forms (CaPhos makes for a family of weird possibilities)
The more I read up on water chemistry happier I am with using Lactic Acid.
I have mention using Calcium Lactate in brewing, if you want to help out LC have a look at the buffering capacity of CaLac/Lactic acid, that's about where I started looking for a refresher course on Ksp, been a while - mind you I had to differentiate an equation a while ago, last time I did much of that it was the late 1970's - use it or loose it, way too much is gone!
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (15/12/17)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> Would that affect the taste of the beer? Oh and are you in the army now?



Wine tanks, duh.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (15/12/17)

MHB said:


> Calcium Phosphate ~20g/L for one form, a practically insoluble gem grade mineral for other forms (CaPhos makes for a family of weird possibilities)



Also your teeth (calcium hydroxyapatite is a form of calcium phosphate)

The one that is revelant to brewing is calcium hydrogen orthophosphate, it has a Ksp of 1 x 10^-7.


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## MHB (15/12/17)

So a bit more soluble than AgCl which sort of defines Insoluble.


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## drsmurto (15/12/17)

Why do you think your mash pH needs correcting?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (15/12/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The one that is revelant to brewing is calcium hydrogen orthophosphate, it has a Ksp of 1 x 10^-7.





MHB said:


> So a bit more soluble than AgCl which sort of defines Insoluble.



EDIT: From info below it looks like I was wrong about calcium hydrogen orthophosphate being the relevant model, it is hydroxyapatite. Solubility of hydroxyapatite is much more complex so I've redacted this post.


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## mtb (15/12/17)

drsmurto said:


> Why do you think your mash pH needs correcting?


It's a justifiable assumption given the average water profile in Aus, and the target profiles advertised by Bru'n Water and the like.

ed: I'm referring to the target profile for the common brewing recipes, ie pale ales and lagers. Capital cities at least require some form of modification to hit the optimal pH without using darker grains in a proportion higher than the recipe calls for.


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## drsmurto (15/12/17)

Yes. Measure pH. If it's out of whack then decide what to do about it. Assuming your mash pH is out of whack and attempting to adjust is arse about, particularly if you don't measure pH after any adjustments.


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## mtb (15/12/17)

I agree completely, which is why I invested in a pH meter.. but is your local water profile report not enough to know the composition of water from your tap? 

I bought a pH meter to double-check the readings post alteration, but I trusted the water profile to know what water I was starting with. Maybe I shouldn't..


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## drsmurto (15/12/17)

Not sure what your water profile has do to with mash pH. 

Regardless of what water I have used for brewing, I've never measured a mash pH out of the desired range. I've even used an IPA as the water to brew with (beer, made from beer a la the Carlton Draught ad) and still got a mash pH bang on. Naturally occurring buffers FTW.

It's good you're actually measuring mash pH, far too many don't but insist of attempting to change mash pH with various means. I'm assuming they rely on the same level of assumptions for the mash temperature. It's the vibe.

Ignore this grumpy scientist, I probably just need to pour myself a beer and relax.


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## mtb (15/12/17)

Nah you're alright drsmurto, I've had a few already which means I've probably not interpreted your response properly.

Let's all have some beers!


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## peteru (15/12/17)

If you are taking pH readings as you go and the pH appears too high, at which stage would you contemplate adding lactic? After 2 minutes, 10, 20, half an hour into the mash?


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## timmi9191 (15/12/17)

Isnt the ca precipitation following acidification with phosphoric dependant upon ca saturation? Ie at ph 5.5 16mg/l ca will not be effected.

Also if phosphoric is used to adjust mash ph, as opposed to strike water ph, wouldnt the issue of ca precipitation be redundant?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (15/12/17)

timmi9191 said:


> Isnt the ca precipitation following acidification with phosphoric dependant upon ca saturation? Ie at ph 5.5 16mg/l ca will not be effected.



EDIT: See above


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## Jack of all biers (15/12/17)

peteru said:


> If you are taking pH readings as you go and the pH appears too high, at which stage would you contemplate adding lactic? After 2 minutes, 10, 20, half an hour into the mash?



The earlier the better*, as this allows the enzymes more time in the preferred pH range of 5.2-5.6. Thereby allowing them more time to fully convert the starches to sugars. It also allows less time for tannin extraction if your measured mash is pH 5.8 or higher

*This assumes that the measured mash pH is out of the above range to begin with. If it is just to adjust to within that range (ie from 5.5 to 5.3), well, I'd suggest that you're worrying over a minor thing and it doesn't matter. If it is to hit a certain pH goal for the finished beer, then I'd suggest that it won't matter (as long as you are within the preferred mash pH range) and you can acidify in the kettle or post boil.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (15/12/17)

drsmurto said:


> Regardless of what water I have used for brewing, I've never measured a mash pH out of the desired range.



I have definitely recorded mash pH outside my desired range and have been able to bring it back in range by changing mash salts. 

I'm confident my pH measurements are OK, I've been doing this a while.


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## manticle (15/12/17)

I've also found mash pH (mostly paler) outside range and calcium in waters I've used is always low.

That said - I agree with DS's point - measure first, action afterwards based on results.


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## Jack of all biers (15/12/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> It is dependent on Ca concentration (not saturation), as explained in my post above.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are asking in the second sentence so I can't answer.



I think what @timmi9191 is referring to is about calcium carbonate and calcium phosphate (and particularly hydroxyl apatite) being less saturated at lower pH. This is explained in short on page 115 & 116 or more thoroughly on page 253 "Example 3 - Determining calcium loss from Phosphoric acid additions" - Appendix B in the book 'Water - A comprehensive Guide for Brewers' Palmer/Kaminski, Brewers Publications 2013. Appendix B was contributed by A.J. deLange and he has used the term calcium saturation, when concentration may be more appropriate.


For those that don't have the book , but are interested I summarise below; (for about $25 delivered to your door, just buy it)

In short deLange states that apatite precipitation as a function of phosphoric acid addition can't be predicted as the mechanisms are hard to model. He further states that the saturation levels of calcium that can be tolerated before the onset of precipitation as a function of pH can be calculated. He says that the saturation limit is conveyed by "Sat. Ca+2; H2PO4; pH(X).

DeLange provides charts which show the remaining alkalinity of water after acidification and saturating (WRT Apatite, pKs=114) calcium concentration if brought to pH with phosphoric acid. These are done with differing Total Alkalinity concentrations (as CaCO3) [at 50, 100, 150 & 200ppm] and source water pH levels that have been acidified with phosphoric acid to pH 5.2, 5.5, 5.75 & 6. They show the respective saturation levels and calcium concentrations.

DeLange states that "the saturation limit for calcium increases the more you acidify", however, "the calcium saturation limit decrease with increasing total alkalinity level". For example;

for a source water with 16mg/L Ca, 50ppm CaCO3, a pH of 7.5 and using phosphoric acid to reduce it to pH of 6 the calcium saturation limit is about 40mg/L. Meaning concentrations of calcium above 40mg/L will likely precipitate out as apatite, but concentrations of calcium below won't. Not great right, because if you added 150mg/L Ca to the original 16mg/L Ca it would be reduced to 40mg/L or just under.
That same pH 7.5 source water acidified to pH 5.5 by phosphoric acid has a calcium saturation limit is of 400mg/L, meaning that one would need to up the Ca concentration to be 400mg/L or higher to start losing Ca to precipitation into apatite.

However, with increasing total alkalinity, for example, a source water with;

100ppm CaCO3, 7.5 pH then acidified to pH 6 the calcium saturation limit is just over 20mg/L Ca and acidified to pH 5.5 it is around 180mg/L Ca.
150ppm CaCO3, 7.5 pH then acidified to pH 6 the calcium saturation limit is about 20mg/L Ca and acidified to pH 5.5 is about 110mg/L Ca.
200ppm CaCO3, 7.5 pH, then acidified to pH 6 has a calcium saturation limit of about 20mg/L Ca and acidification to pH 5.5 has a calcium saturation limit of about 80mg/L Ca.
If you add Ca salt additions above those 'Ca saturation limit' concentrations then you are as LC and MHB said 'making expensive silt'.

So in short, if you have higher Total Alkalinity water to begin with and need to move the water pH down with phosphoric acid then, you should ensure you know what you are doing or probably look elsewhere or add your Ca additions to the boil so as to not lose significant amounts.

My Adelaide tap water has total alkalinity of 44 mg/L CaCO3, so I add Ca salts to the mash and very occasionally acidified malt (lactic acid essentially) and acidify my sparge water with phosphoric acid (aiming for pH 5.4, but often going under that). But if I ever did need to add acid to the mash, due to being out of acidified malt, I would not hesitate as I know that the Ca levels wouldn't be precipitated out as apatite.

*EDIT *- It appears that there is an error in the text of the book that threw-out my reading of the lower numbers on the charts. I have changed these to reflect the values provided in the charts, ie 4mg/L was actually 40mg/L on the chart.

Also what I didn't cover in the above is that if you add your Ca salts to the mash and measure the mash pH to be 5.75, but want to acidify to 5.6 to 5.2, even with 200ppm CaCO3 water, your calcium saturation limit is very high (above 200mg/L Ca) so to use phosphoric to do so should not reduce the Ca concentrations through extra precipitation as apatite.

Also, deLange modelled his results with CaSO4, not CaCl. He states if the SO4-to-Cl ratio is less than 1:2 or no SO4 at all (in the source water or by additions) then cut the Ca saturation values in half.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (16/12/17)

Yea, dude. A light pilsner vs. an imperial stout aint exactly gonna be close in ph.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/12/17)

Well my new ph meter arrived in the mail yesterday. Calibrated it and reads 7 in tap water. Out if curiosity I tested an older IPA which reads 4.9ph. Not sure if beer ph changes much from mash but that's what I got anyway. It's a 7.5% abv so not going to be same as a pale ale perse'


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/12/17)

Yes, beer should have a lower pH than the mash: pH generally falls by a bit more than 1 pH unit during fermentation, the actual change is dependent on wort composition, yeast strain and fermentation conditions.

That being said, 4.9 is very high for a finished beer, most beers will look soapy at that pH.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/12/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Yes, beer should have a lower pH than the mash: pH generally falls by a bit more than 1 pH unit during fermentation, the actual change is dependent on wort composition, yeast strain and fermentation conditions.
> 
> That being said, 4.9 is very high for a finished beer, most beers will look soapy at that pH.



Thanks L

Well it certainly does look soapy. And taste it too. Although, my meter is cheap. It does, however measure 7 in tap water and line up at 7.2 with my test strips in the pool which are accurate (there's 5ph colours in 0.2 increments) I'd hate to see where my APA and pilsners are sitting.. Could this really be correct, or could it be my meter?

I added 10g calcium salts to that 23l batch too

Edit, it's my Meter. Just tried again with the pool test strips and it's almost a full point out.. off to Ebay as we speak


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/12/17)

Any suggestions for a new meter anyone?


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## MHB (23/12/17)

Finished beer should (generally) be in the 4.1-4.3pH range.
I would get a litre or so of beer, add a drop or two of Lactic Acid and measure the pH, bring it down to around 4.3pH
Tip some into a glass.
Adjust the remainder down to 4.2pH, pour some off into a glass
Do the same again down to 4.1
Do a vertical tasting you will find that one of them is standout better - adjust the rest of the beer and enjoy it while you try to work out why its so far off target in the first place.
Call it a process review - something needs fixing.
Mark


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## MHB (23/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Yea, dude. A light pilsner vs. an imperial stout aint exactly gonna be close in ph.


Actually the pH of the finished beers wont be as far apart as you think.
Remember that darkest most acidic beers evolved in the highest carbonate waters, to counteract the high pH and bring it down into the optimum mashing range, from there it follows that the finished beer will be pretty close to the same.
Mark


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## Jack of all biers (23/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Thanks L
> It does, however measure 7 in tap water and line up at 7.2 with my test strips in the pool which are accurate (there's 5ph colours in 0.2 increments) I'd hate to see where my APA and pilsners are sitting.. Could this really be correct, or could it be my meter?
> 
> Edit, it's my Meter. Just tried again with the pool test strips and it's almost a full point out.. off to Ebay as we speak



Good that you found the issue so quick. Don't calibrate or judge the accuracy of your pH meter by testing it against water. Tap water (from municipal water supplies) pH can be anywhere from 6.5 to 8.5. So your reading of 7 may be correct, but next time might read 7.1 and still be correct. Better to use calibration solution to test the readings. If they are reading spot on then you can trust your meter for a few readings depending on how well it is manufactured. Even pure water fluctuates in pH and is difficult to read anyway as it is so pure. 

Read the attachment to post #10 and also this BYO article about pH. You generally want your beer at pH lower than 4.4, but lower than 4.7 is acceptable. Also search for pH meter on the search function as there are quite a few posts with recommendations for reasonably accurate pH meters.

EDIT - MHB beat me to the punch on the pH range.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/12/17)

Cheers guys. Can we keep the borax ph calibration solution in the fridge to test as we please?


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## Jack of all biers (23/12/17)

My understanding is that pH calibration solutions are best kept cold to remain as stable as possible for longer. So yes.

EDIT - but don't forget to allow it to warm up to 20-25C before calibrating or your calibration will be off.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/12/17)

Thanks!


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## MHB (23/12/17)

In commercial brewing and research, there has been a steady reduction of mash pH over the last couple of years.
Mashing quite low is becoming more common (5.1pH) as the low pH disables the enzyme Lipoxeygenase, has a big impact on beer stability and the effects of O2 on packaged beer.
Packaging at lower pH also promotes stability and gives the beer a "fresher - crisper" character.
If you have a decent pH meter its pretty easy to do the experimentation and find where you your beer should be for your palate.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/12/17)

Cheers MHB. Sounds like yet another emerging clue to the mystery of my shiddy beer and why it's just never quite right. I'll get there


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## MHB (23/12/17)

PM me with your location and a phone number we might be able to work through a few basic checks that will help pin down the problem.
With most brewing its a matter of getting the basics right - then look at refining the process.
Mark


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## evoo4u (23/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Any suggestions for a new meter anyone?



Long story, but I have a new Hanna 98128 surplus to requirements - $150.

I've been using my original 98128 for a couple of years, but recently couldn't successfully calibrate it. It rejected the 7 solution. I changed the electrode over with an old one, and then it accepted the 7, but rejected the 4.

Getting a bit cheesed off, and suspecting that moisture may have got in and played havoc with the electronics, I ordered a whole new meter and a spare electrode as well.

The new electrode solved the problem! A Hanna techie also told me that testing for pH in hot solutions was severely detrimental to the life of the electrode, and to restrict temps to <30C. I had been abusing the electrode by measuring at mash temps!!!

So that leaves me with a great working pH meter, also a new and unused 98128 if you're interested.


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## laxation (4/1/18)

I bought one of the cheapo ones off ebay to give it a try.

It comes with 2 x 250ml test sachets. Do I just mix up the entire sachet in water and leave it in the fridge, taking out a little bit to test each time?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (10/1/18)

I Googled the rates. You can get quite a few uses from each sachet of borax. Sounds like the same shitty one I bought.

Well, the results of my first ph corrected brew are in and as someone previously mentioned, there's an actual mouthfeel difference. One I was readily experiencing in many commercial beers but assumed was brewing salts. So now this first ph corrected brew is quite a bit drier tasting and yes, acidic. You can literally feel the freshness on your tongue

I don't experience anything else apart from that. The malt flavour itself isn't 'fresher' or more pronounced, it's possibly a tadd less tasty than usual but that could also be due to who knows what else. Time will tell for sure


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## MHB (10/1/18)

I have seen several references to Borax as a calibration standard, I hope people realise how accurately you need to measure both masse and volumes to be able to make reliably standards. I wold seriously want a 3 place (0.001g) scale at a minimum. A standard that isn't reliable is a bit like a condom - gives people a false sense of security whilst being screwed!

Here is a link on preparing standards "Preparation of pH buffer solutions" at a quick look it appears reasonably reliable, not like some of the other sites that turned up.


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## laxation (11/1/18)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I Googled the rates. You can get quite a few uses from each sachet of borax. Sounds like the same shitty one I bought


Did you weigh out some of the solution and then mix with water, or mix the whole lot and use part of the watered down solution?


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## MHB (11/1/18)

I buy 1L bottles from my local Scientific Supply (Australian Scientific) along with electrode storage solution and even calibration solution for my TSD meter (just phoned them 1L of pH7 is $25+GST), lasts me several years and at least I can be fairly confident its accurate.
Use about 50mL/standardisation, don't tip it back into the bottle...
Mark


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## Doctormcbrewdle (11/1/18)

laxation said:


> Did you weigh out some of the solution and then mix with water, or mix the whole lot and use part of the watered down solution?



I weighed out


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## Doctormcbrewdle (11/1/18)

MHB said:


> I buy 1L bottles from my local Scientific Supply (Australian Scientific) along with electrode storage solution and even calibration solution for my TSD meter (just phoned them 1L of pH7 is $25+GST), lasts me several years and at least I can be fairly confident its accurate.
> Use about 50mL/standardisation, don't tip it back into the bottle...
> Mark



Cheers Mark.

The crappy ph meters we bought come with a sachet of 7 and 4.1 solution to calibrate with, that's what Lax is talking about

Lax: you can use the 4.1 solution as a short term storage solution if kept refrigerated (meters need to be stored with probe in storage solution. Yes, nice of our manual to tell us that..)


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## Beerandpies (11/1/18)

I have ph 5.2 stabiliser for my next brew as tge last quarters report was 6.8. Does anyone else use this? It'll be my first time


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## manticle (11/1/18)

Very dubious about its efficacy.

6.8 is presumably your water pH? Mash pH is what is important. Water (esp mineral content) can affect mash pH but water pH, in and of itself, is fairly unimportant.


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## mondestrunken (11/1/18)

What about pH indicator strips? Last time I checked they were like 20c each, much cheaper than a pH meter.

Also, water adjustment suggestions on a national forum are fraught as there are so many conflicting goals.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (11/1/18)

Noooooo. Please don't. Testing ph requires strict accuracy. Ph strips can be too far apart to be worthwhile using. You can do more harm than good with those (Says John Palmer in his latest revision of "how to brew")


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## GalBrew (11/1/18)

Beerandpies said:


> I have ph 5.2 stabiliser for my next brew as tge last quarters report was 6.8. Does anyone else use this? It'll be my first time



This stuff is garbage, don’t let it anywhere near your beer. There are plenty of threads about it if you search the forum.


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## laxation (12/1/18)

Does anyone have a PH adjustment calculator for dummies?
Like where I can put in my PH and it tells me what to do? 

I am extremely non-scientific and get a headache just looking at a lot of the shit in the calculators I've seen


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## mtb (12/1/18)

Bru'n Water!

ed: you may see it and think it's not for dummies.. but I was able to use it. So yes, yes it is.


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## droid (12/1/18)

I'd imagine anyone wanting to drop their sparge water pH would start by knowing what that initial pH is. So measuring water pH has it's place.


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## laxation (12/1/18)

mtb said:


> Bru'n Water!
> 
> ed: you may see it and think it's not for dummies.. but I was able to use it. So yes, yes it is.


I gave it a go, does this look right?


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## mtb (12/1/18)

laxation said:


> I gave it a go, does this look right?


Can't know for sure without seeing what you entered as your Existing Water Profile.

Also that looks like an older version, make sure to grab the latest which I believe is 1.18


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## laxation (12/1/18)

I've got 1.18a - fresh off the site
this is the water profile, based off what info i had from the Yarra Valley report. They didn't have everything, and have only mean values (for the whole area) for some things


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## manticle (13/1/18)

droid said:


> I'd imagine anyone wanting to drop their sparge water pH would start by knowing what that initial pH is. So measuring water pH has it's place.



Absolutely. Just don't use it on its own as an indication of how to get to target mash pH.


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