# Style Of The Week 10/06/08 - Old Ale



## Stuster (10/6/08)

I thought we could look at a nice winter warmer this week, Old Ale. This is a traditional English style which was aged, mainly in wood giving it the chance to get some sweaty, stale flavours from brettanomyces and others. You don't have to do that now, though it's certainly a plus in my book.  

Anyway, some links.
All about beer article.
BT article on Old, Strong and Stock Ales

So what grains? hops? Which yeast? kits and bits? How to go about fermenting a strong style like this? How long to age this style for? Any other hints? I know a few brewers are making Old Ales at the moment and I know a few award winning Old Ale brewers are amongst us, so it'd be good to get your opinions so we can brew the best beer we can. :beer: 

From the BJCP site, link thing.



> 19A. Old Ale
> 
> Aroma: Malty-sweet with fruity esters, often with a complex blend of dried-fruit, vinous, caramelly, molasses, nutty, toffee, treacle, and/or other specialty malt aromas. Some alcohol and oxidative notes are acceptable, akin to those found in Sherry or Port. Hop aromas not usually present due to extended aging.
> 
> ...


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## Weizguy (10/6/08)

I read that Arrogant Bastard is considered to be a stock ale. I've made a few of those. Plenty of dark crystal malt (up to 1 kg).

Have also made an old, strong ale from kit and kilo(s of golden syrup). Took a while to ferment out, but has kept long enough to be a really old ale. Scored best Strong ale in NSW in 2006 comp.


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## phonos (10/6/08)

This is an old ale I've made a couple of times which I've really enjoyed - I got it from this forum somewhere. Sorry I can't remember who I got it from to give them the credit:

Recipe Theakston's Old PeculierStyle Old Ale
Brewer David Corless Batch 21.00 L


Recipe Characteristics 
Recipe Gravity 1.058 OG Estimated FG 1.014 FG
Recipe Bitterness 27 IBU Alcohol by Volume 5.8%
Recipe Color 16 SRM Alcohol by Weight 4.5%

Ingredients 
Quantity Grain Use
0.22 kg Dextrose extract
0.22 kg Brown Sugar extract
0.11 kg Bairds black Malt mashed
0.34 kg Bairds Pale crystal mashed
4.00 kg Joe White Ale mashed
0.17 kg Torrefied wheat mashed
0.11 kg Smiths Golden Syrup extract

Quantity Hop Form Time
50.00 g Fuggles pellet 60 minutes
15.00 g Fuggles pellet 15 minutes
15.00 g Fuggles pellet 5 minutes
31.00 g Fuggles (Dry) pellet 0 minutes

Quantity Misc Notes 
1.00 unit SafAle S-04 Reused Slurry

Recipe Notes 

Batch Notes 
1.057 @ 27C - 10/12/07 - 73% Efficiency
1.019 @ 20C - 15/12/07
1.016 @ 21C - 17/12/07 - Racked onto dry hops
1.013 @ 16C - 21/12/07
1.014 @ 12C - 26/12/07 - Kegged

BATCH 2
1.059 @ 26C - 28/12/07 - 75% Efficiency
1.019 @ 20C - 2/1/08
1.017 @ 20C - 4/1/08 - added Dry Hops to Primary
1.012 @ 24C - 11/1/08 - racked to secondary
1.012 @ 21C - 19/1/08 - primed with 94g dextrose


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## Stuster (11/6/08)

So far the common ingredient appears to be Golden Syrup. :lol: 

Just bumping this for any other Old Ale recipes, with or without the key ingredient.  

Les, I'm not sure AB is an Old Ale. Might just have a touch too much hoppiness.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (11/6/08)

My latest effort at this style. Brewed on 20th of Feb. Currently tasting pretty reasonable but will age it for longer before I give it a real nudge.

Old Cove Ale 
Old Ale 



Date: 20/02/2008 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Mark Rasheed 
Boil Size: 33.28 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 120 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.75 kg Bairds Marris Otter (5.0 EBC) Grain 76.2 % 
1.00 kg Weyermann Munich II (23.6 EBC) Grain 13.2 % 
0.40 kg Bairds Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) Grain 5.3 % 
0.20 kg TF Flaked Maize (0.0 EBC) Grain 2.6 % 
0.20 kg TF Pale Chocolate Malt (500.4 EBC) Grain 2.6 % 
32.00 gm Target [9.50%] (60 min) Hops 39.5 IBU 
28.00 gm EKG [5.5%] (Dry hop 14 days)
1 Pkgs London Ale (Wyeast Labs #1028) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.072 SG
Bitterness: 39.5 IBU 
Est Color: 40.3 EBC 


Notes

Mashed at 68C. Took 2 Litres of first runnings and boiled down to 0.5 Litres. 

C&B
TDA


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## pmolou (14/6/08)

i'm brewing this after my blonde belgian finishes fermenting  

moloughneys old ale


est OG 1.065
est FG 1.017
est ABV 7%

ingrediants:
1kg dark munich
200g carared
200g 60L crystal malt
3kg coopers light liquid malt
0.375 demerera sugar
0.125 dextrose

nelson sauvin 15g @60mins
fuggles 20g @60mins
fuggles 20g @15 mins

IBU 32 

safale s04 sachet X1 

a few questions is my IBU too high (should it be 30) and with the s04 do i need to make a starter or should it be able to chew its way through this easily

any comments /tips


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## drsmurto (16/6/08)

Brewed this old ale on Thursday - Linky

First time using 1187 when i havent had to rouse it! Humming along beautifully, down to 1.026 in 2 and a bit days from 1.062. 

Was planning on letting this sit for a few months but with 5 out of 6 kegs empty i am in need of beer stat! I tend to brew 25L these days so i can get 10-12 longies in the shed. 

The Old Peculier is on the cards...... think i'm a bit late for old ale brewing season so may have to make them at the lower end of the scale so i can drink them before xmas!


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## pmolou (13/12/08)

tried my old ale for the first time after 4 months has a nice caramel malty flavour which dominates the beer could defidently had some more bitterness and i guess time will let this mellow out but overall exactly what i was looking for in an old ale


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## Tony (13/12/08)

How timly......... im boiling one right now behing me.

Its a slightly modified version of the Old Ale that won me last years NSW state comp and a Gold at the AABC.

I am making this one a little less complicated........... no golden syrip, just lots of pale crystal, a touch of pale chocolate and some Flaked Barley for body and texture.

here is the recipe. Its going to be fermented with 1098 and stored for 12 months before touching. Well might have to try one or 2 along the way.

cheers

Strong Old Ale 2

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 18.00 Wort Size (L): 18.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.46
Anticipated OG: 1.080 Plato: 19.42
Anticipated EBC: 32.0
Anticipated IBU: 58.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
77.4 5.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 5
12.4 0.80 kg. TF Pale Crystal UK 1.034 100
7.7 0.50 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
1.5 0.10 kg. Rice Gulls Australia 1.000 0
0.9 0.06 kg. TF Pale Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 550

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
44.00 g. Pilgrim Pellet 10.40 53.2 45 min.
10.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 3.3 20 min.
14.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 1.5 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1098 British Ale


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## Pumpy (13/12/08)

Tony said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 77.4 5.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 5
> 12.4 0.80 kg. TF Pale Crystal UK 1.034 100
> 7.7 0.50 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
> ...




Hey Tony What are the Rice Gulls for ?


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## Tony (13/12/08)

The flaked barley mate. I have found it binds up the mash in my good old blue esky with a flase bottom surface area of a 50c coin.

Its just insurance, thats all.

I also find they impart a fantastic caramel clavour the the beer and aid in carbonation once the beer is in the bottle 

cheers


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## Pumpy (13/12/08)

Tony said:


> The flaked barley mate. I have found it binds up the mash in my good old blue esky with a flase bottom surface area of a 50c coin.
> 
> Its just insurance, thats all.
> 
> ...




Thats interesting , Hey you gon back to basics Tony using your old Mash Tun what happened to the new Brewery ?

Pumpy


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## Tony (13/12/08)

I do "small" 18 to 27 liter batches in the esky. 

The Rig is for 50 liters and 50 liters of 1.080 Strong ale is a bit much in my book.

Would rather make 3 different beers at smaller volumes. 

I use the Rig for large volume batches to drink on tap. I experiment and no-chill with the old esky.

It still works as good as ever. Sometimes i use both at once.

cheers


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## crozdog (13/12/08)

Pumpy said:


> Hey Tony What are the Rice Gulls for ?



confusing people who don't know what the hell they are""   :lol: B) 

seriously - Tony's original recipe brew was sensational when I judged it last year - I even wrote give me the recipe on my comments - (if they could be read)


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## reviled (10/3/09)

Brett character - Can this be achieved by ageing the ale on unsanitised oak chips?? Does Brett hangout in oak?


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## Jye (13/4/09)

Finish my first Old Ale this arvo and after chilling the aroma was dominated by treacle... a bit too much <_< Is this something that fades a lot over time?

Reviled, Brett does live in barrels but you probably wont find much on chips since they have been toasted and I think the heating process will have killed any off.

*Old Ale *


Type: All Grain
Date: 13/04/2009 
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Brewer: Jye 
Boil Size: 27.46 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: SK Brew Hous 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.0 
Taste Notes: CSR Treacle 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
9.30 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 92.1 % 
0.25 kg Crystal Malt, Dark (Bairds) (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.5 % 
0.20 kg Crystal Malt, Medium (Bairds) (75.0 SRM) Grain 2.0 % 
0.05 kg Black (Patent) Malt (Bairds) (650.0 SRM) Grain 0.5 % 
0.30 kg Black Treacle (80.0 SRM) Sugar 3.0 % 

50.00 gm Magnum [13.10%] (60 min) Hops 59.6 IBU 

0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
3.00 gm Calcium Carbonate (Mash 5.0 min) Misc 
5.00 gm 5.2 (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 

1 Pkgs PC Old Ale Blend (Wyeast #9097) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.092 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.094 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.9 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.0 % 
Bitterness: 59.6 IBU Calories: 904 cal/l 
Est Color: 22.2 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: SK Brew Hous Mash Total Grain Weight: 9.80 kg 
Sparge Water: 13.77 L Grain Temperature: 25.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 100.0 C TunTemperature: 25.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 24.50 L of water at 71.1 C 65.0 C 90 min


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## Barry (13/4/09)

I used 500 gms of golden syrup in an old ale which is now 4 months old. The flavour is still a bit edgey which some do not like. I like it but it is mellowing with age. These beers are suppose be drank after a year or more so give it time.


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## warrenlw63 (13/4/09)

Jye could well be the treacle itself (CSR). Ours by all accounts are far more pungent and probably molasses like as opposed to the British stuff. Any UK recipes looking for Black Treacles are usually referring to Lyle's. 

Warren -


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Keen for some thoughts/advice on my Old Ale recipe - been knocking this back and forth for a while now, planning to mash fairly high, say 69/70*c, then let Brett unleash the fury :icon_cheers: 

OG - 1076 IBU - 38

4kg 200g Pale 
150g Wheat malt 
960g Munich 
60g Melanoidin 
120g CaraAmber 
120g CaraMunich 
180g CaraAroma 
120g Dark Crystal 
150g Rye 
60g Molasses 
300g Maple syrup - Or brown sugar?? 

FWH : 13g NZ Goldings, 13g Willamette 
60 : 5g NZ Goldings, 5g Williamette
15 : 10g NZ Goldings, 15g Williamette
5 : 10g NZ Goldings, 15g Williamette

Wyeast 1469 - Then Brett


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Bump  Anyone?


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## chappo1970 (12/5/09)

Sorry RevKnut not to up with this Style. Will be after this months BABBS meeting thou.

Maybe someone else can step in?

Chappo


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## reviled (12/5/09)

reviled said:


> Keen for some thoughts/advice on my Old Ale recipe - been knocking this back and forth for a while now, planning to mash fairly high, say 69/70*c, then let Brett unleash the fury :icon_cheers:
> 
> OG - 1076 IBU - 38
> 
> ...





Where are all you bug brewers hiding today?? :unsure:


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## Stuster (12/5/09)

Personally, I think there's just too much going on there. The number of grains and sugars, along with the hops, along with the yeast and brett might just end up being a bit messy.

I'd cut back to two types of crystal (maybe caramunich and caraaroma). One type of sugar or none. I think the molasses might be a bit much but I've never used it in a beer so if you have and you like it then go for it of course. I think such small amounts of rye and wheat will be unnoticeable but won't do any harm. Munich seems like a good idea. Since this is a beer you are going to be keeping a while, I think it might be leaving out the final hop additions, or just leaving one at flame out along with a simple bittering addition. Mashing high seems like a good idea.


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Cheers mate, thats some good info, back to the drawing board  

So re crystals, I could drop the dark crystal, and keep the caraaroma and caramunich, but had the caraamber in there as its not really a crystal malt, more of a biscuit malt and thought it could add complexity?

Oh, and I havnt used the molasses before thats why there was only a small amount


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## Stuster (12/5/09)

Caraamber is a medium crystal malt. Amber malt is different and might be a good idea, especially some of the UK stuff. :icon_drool2:


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Stuster said:


> Caraamber is a medium crystal malt. Amber malt is different and might be a good idea, especially some of the UK stuff. :icon_drool2:



Is it really? Cos ive also read that CaraRed and CaraMunich are medium crystals as well, which seems wierd that they would make three different types of medium crystal? 

Isnt caraamber similair to belgian Biscuit?

Edit : Was talking to someone that said Caramunich is their crystal, caraamber is a lightly toasted biscuit and carared was a bit more toasted but that its still not a crystal malt???

Zwickel, where are ya?


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## Stuster (12/5/09)

Yep, they're all different colours though. Have a look at the Weyermann page on caramel (crystal) malts here. :icon_cheers: 

Ross does seem to say that caraamber can be a sub for Belgian biscuit. Never tried that biscuit so couldn't say really.


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## Quintrex (12/5/09)

Stuster said:


> Yep, they're all different colours though. Have a look at the Weyermann page on caramel (crystal) malts here. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Ross does seem to say that caraamber can be a sub for Belgian biscuit. Never tried that biscuit so couldn't say really.



Drop the molasses imo. Ferments out leaving a harsh flavour. Not a fan!!
BTW if you want to keep the rye, maybe add more than 150g, don't think it'll add anything discernable at this level.
Q


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Stuster said:


> Yep, they're all different colours though. Have a look at the Weyermann page on caramel (crystal) malts here. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Ross does seem to say that caraamber can be a sub for Belgian biscuit. Never tried that biscuit so couldn't say really.



There seems to be alot of debate about this over here, a few people swear that they aint crystal malts, allthough ive read those specs and just had another squizz and they do go in colour order...

But then Cara-Aroma is a sub for special B, caraamber is a sub for Biscuit, so theres gotta be more to the picture...

And Quintrex, ive got 150gms of Rye lying around so thought "why not" :icon_cheers:


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## Stuster (12/5/09)

reviled said:


> There seems to be alot of debate about this over here, a few people swear that they aint crystal malts, allthough ive read those specs and just had another squizz and they do go in colour order...



If Weyerman say they are caramel malts, that's good enough for me. :lol: 

Special B is a crystal malt too BTW.


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Stuster said:


> If Weyerman say they are caramel malts, that's good enough for me. :lol:
> 
> Special B is a crystal malt too BTW.



Fair enough I guess, I dont wanna argue with the guys who make it  

its just they seem so far different from each other, I mean, ive got CaraRed, CaraAmber, CaraAroma, and CaraMunich and they all have completely different qualities IMO, not like say dark and medium crystal where they are still quite similair..


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Allrighty - revised recipe - are we looking a bit tidier? Still too much? Everything is in there for a reason which ive listed next to it

4kg 200g Pale 
150g Wheat malt - head retention 
960g Munich - maltiness
60g Melanoidin - beef up the munich
120g CaraAmber - biscuit character
120g CaraMunich - fruit and nut character
180g CaraAroma - raisins yum lol
150g Rye - slight oilyness attributed

300g brown sugar - slight toffee flavour

FWH : 20g NZ Goldings, 20g Willamette 
15 : 10g NZ Goldings, 15g Williamette

Wyeast 1469 - Then Brett


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## Quintrex (12/5/09)

reviled said:


> Allrighty - revised recipe - are we looking a bit tidier? Still too much? Everything is in there for a reason which ive listed next to it
> 
> 4kg 200g Pale
> 150g Wheat malt - head retention
> ...



Looks great, I'd go back to your old hop schedule though, I prefer to add more hops to beers I wanna keep.
Mhhh save me a bottle 

Q


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## reviled (12/5/09)

Quintrex said:


> Looks great, I'd go back to your old hop schedule though, I prefer to add more hops to beers I wanna keep.
> Mhhh save me a bottle
> 
> Q



Interesting - I normally like lots of hops also but was going by what Stuster said, and seeing as ill be keeping it a fairly long time the hop character might diminish...

lol, decisions decisions eh? Love this game :icon_cheers: 

And ill save you a bottle - the catch is you got to come to Auckland to drink it


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## muckanic (12/5/09)

A few prejudices, which may be taken or left:

1. I would use about 1 kg of wheat and/or rye malt as a body booster. Rye starts to become noticeable (and possibly objectionable to some) after about 0.5 kg, so that probably means 50:50. There have been other suggestions to use high glucan stuff, like raw barley. Personally, I don't think it adds too much that can't be achieved other ways. Another IMHO: I fail to see what maize would contribute to this sort of a brew. Oats, however, are useful for their oily, sweet note (at about 10% or 0.5 kg). Unlike the rest of the brewing universe, I prefer whole, husks-on oats to oatmeal, as they are less gummy and also more flavoursome. They present the problem that they tend to pass straight through my Valley Mill on the smallest setting. They don't seem to need pre-gelatinisation. I have also encountered a husked, less elongated variety that basically reeked of horsefeed and was way more gummy. That could actually go well with Brett ...

2. But all the stock ales I have tried have been more acidic than barnyard. Letting the Brett rip on the whole batch could be a bit much, so maybe a blend would be the way to go. You don't see too many dark lambics. I would personally be more concerned about getting some lactic character in there. This can boost the eventual ester content. Can't see the point of flavouring hops combined with Brett.

3. Molasses is one of those things that tastes wonderful until the sugar is stripped away, and so by the time you can taste it it is too much. 200g max is my limit. In that case, I would thin the brew with white sugar or dextrose. Combining molasses and brown sugar doesn't make a lot of sense. The sugars could be caramelised either in advance, or as part of a high-gravity wort boil. In that case, you don't need golden syrup.

4. It is debatable whether munich, vienna or the like is needed when using large quantities of caramel malts. I have used up to 2 kg of JWM's dark crystal and, contrary to conventional wisdom, the gravity didn't finish too high. Weyermann's cararoma, on the other hand, seems to be much more dextrinous. You want as much dark caramel malt as possible to provide oxidised products. It helps to balance the sweetness of the caramel malts with a small amount (100-125g) of highly roasted species. My most vinous brew ever used 1kg of roast barley, which is about double what most people would employ in stouts. The acidity of the caramel malts can screw up the mash unless corrected, but they should be at least added at mash-out for no other reason than that the grain bed is a practically effective filter and will reduce losses to the sediment.

5. Consider some subtle spicing. Licorice root, star anise and fennel all work well with dark brews.


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## brettprevans (12/5/09)

my 2c worth (already been conversin with reviled about this).

molasses seems to be a must in old ales.

I recon go the brown sugar instead of maple syrup. if you wanted some more 'sweetness' you could caramalise some of a small amount of the runnings. 

maybe bit of chocmalt or touch of black patent (replaces some of the carras)? for that older bold flavour that will mature with time.
Rye & Melanoidin are a nice touch. love Melanoidin in dark beers.

not sure about IBU. Ive seen a few recipes rang from about 30 -90 IBU. not exactly sure where in the range is best. i suppose if its more of a scottish old ale then less and if its more of an old english ale then more heavily hopped. I personally might shoot for 45. 

it really depends on what sort of old ale your shooting for. if your after that really hard aged big casky brett flavour then your going to have to give it hell and wait for it to mature.

im also going to do an old ale and use w9097.


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## warrenlw63 (12/5/09)

Alternatively you could get your hands on some treacle. Preferably not the CSR stuff (or whatever it's NZ equivalent is). Lyle's Black Treacle would probably be the best bet. Most British type grocery or confectionery stores usually have it. It's flavour is less-intense than that of molasses.

Warren -


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## reviled (13/5/09)

So is 60gms of molasses really going to leave me with an overpowering taste in the beer? I thought such a small amount would be ever so subtle??

I was going to let the brew ferment out with 1469 first, then pitch brett when its finished, but was planning on mashing high to leave a fair amount of food for the brett... And im definately expecting to have to age this for a while to let that desirable brett character develop..

Also I might up the IBU's a tad seeing as it will be aged, maybe just a FWH and a FO addition like Stuster suggested?


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## mje1980 (27/9/10)

Gunna try this. love to do it tomorrow, but doubt i'll get it done. 

Barking dog strong ale

81.1% JW trad
6.8% Wheat
8.1% Cara aroma
4.1% golden naked oats

17g Galena @ 60
90g Challenger @ 10

1.070
43.9 IBU
7.1% 

1968. 

Planning on mashing around 67, and a 90 min boil. Balanced water adjustments. Hops wise, the IBU's are split almost 50/50, so half will come from the small galena addition, and half will come from the 90g challenger @ 10 mins, so should be more hoppy than bitter. Calc'd, it'll stop at 1.017, but i think i can get it lower than that, as i'll probably do a 4% bitter as a "starter" hehe, so will probably be a touch stronger. 

This will be bottled


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## mje1980 (28/9/10)

In between painting skirting boards and mowing, i managed to get the beer brewed. Made a few changes, so here is the final recipe. 

79.5% JW trad ale
6.6% Wheat
8% Cara aroma
4% Golden naked oats
1% Black malt
.9% Lyle's dark treacle

10g galena 60 mins
90g challenger 10mins

1.072
44 IBU

Managed to hit the gravity spot on, which im very happy about, as with big beers normally i fall short.

Will use the thames 2, or 1968, just dont know which one yet. 

The golden naked oats are a trip!. Taste and smell a little like porridge or something. Im thinking they will add some silky mouthfeel. Hope so anyway. Won't get brewed for a few weeks yet, as i have a few already in the works, but im in no hurry.


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## manticle (5/12/10)

Ressurection.

I have a packet of Wy PC old ale in the fridge and am thinking of a future brew that I can age in a glass carboy for next winter. I haven't run these figures through software yet - just playing with ideas.

85% Crisp Marris otter
2.5% Dark Crystal (UK)
2.5% pale crystal (UK)
5% medium crystal (UK)
2% biscuit (Belg)
A small addition of treacle or golden syrup or a blend of both.

Fuggles to bitter, EKG for flavour, roughly 40-50 IBU. OG around 1060-65

WY old ale.

Worth adding the treacle as I would sugar with a begian (after primary) or just chuck it in? Also styrians could be a goer in this. Thoughts on dry hopping?

Feedback very welcome.


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## Tony (5/12/10)

hey mate.

for a great Old Ale...... dont be afraid of adding lots of crystal..... im talking 15% or more. A lot of dark crystal malts can be a bit much though and i used about 8% TF caramalt which goes like toffee with age! 4 or 5% medium and dark crystal on this and your talking buisness. An addition of 5% flaked barley doesnt go astray either.

MO base...... perfect. 90 min mash, 90 min boil.

The old ale i made years ago that won awards used several % Demarara (speeling ) sugar for its deep caramel notes i love so much in my coffee.

Also dont be afraid to add a good chunk of flavour and aroma hops. I know its an aging beer and they will fade, but they fade to a complexity that adds wonders to the beer when aged.

cheers


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## manticle (5/12/10)

Cheers mate. Might up the pale and medium crystal a touch to hit 12-15% total crystal and scale everything else accordingly.

EKG and styrians for later hops? I also have target which I quite like late.


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## Tony (5/12/10)

manticle said:


> EKG and styrians for later hops? I also have target which I quite like late.



late hops...... perfect!

Target is an awsome bittering hop.....id use it for that in this beer....... or challenger :icon_drool2: 

Also.. aim for a BU:GU of about 0.7

have fun!


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## manticle (5/12/10)

Thanks mate. I'll have a play around in the software and see what I can come up with. Recently bought some challenger too (and first gold) as I've never tried them.


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## Tony (5/12/10)

this is the beer i made that won gold at AABC. I look at it now and think.... WTF was i thinking but it worked. It tasted like crap for the forst 12 months, but an old ale is all about time and it hit its peak after 2 years in cool dark storage.

strong ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.90
Anticipated OG: 1.076 Plato: 18.44
Anticipated EBC: 26.8
Anticipated IBU: 44.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 76 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
77.5 10.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 5
7.8 1.00 kg. TF Caramalt UK 1.034 30
4.7 0.60 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145
3.9 0.50 kg. Demerara Sugar Generic 1.042 2
3.9 0.50 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
2.3 0.30 kg. JWM Dark Crystal Australia 1.036 230

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
100.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 30.6 60 min.
40.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 9.4 30 min.
40.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 4.4 10 min.
14.00 g. Fuggle Plugs Plug 4.80 0.0 Dry Hop
14.00 g. Northdown Plugs Plug 5.80 0.0 Dry Hop



Yeast
-----

WYeast 1338 European Ale


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## haysie (5/12/10)

manticle said:


> Ressurection.
> 
> I have a packet of Wy PC old ale in the fridge and am thinking of a future brew that I can age in a glass carboy for next winter. I haven't run these figures through software yet - just playing with ideas.
> 
> ...



The yeast you have is the brett old ale combo? 
If so, some serious fermenter/carboy time before bottling. Maybe incorrect but a brett intro would be most warranted for this style.
I bought the same yeast and brewed 28 ltrs last week. I didnt care much for the recipe, base m/o, special b, simpsons crystal med and dark, shedload of boiling with an addition of raw sugar. Some, 12 ltrs of which I have racked to fruit. 1092 was the O/G. Its big, thats how I want it for 2012.
Keep us posted.


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## manticle (5/12/10)

haysie said:


> The yeast you have is the brett old ale combo?
> If so, some serious fermenter/carboy time before bottling. Maybe incorrect but a brett intro would be most warranted for this style.
> I bought the same yeast and brewed 28 ltrs last week. I didnt care much for the recipe, base m/o, special b, simpsons crystal med and dark, shedload of boiling with an addition of raw sugar. Some, 12 ltrs of which I have racked to fruit. 1092 was the O/G. Its big, thats how I want it for 2012.
> Keep us posted.



Yeah I'll be whacking it into glass and leaving at least until winter. I'll taste it then and see if further ageing is warranted - could be winter 2012 as you suggest.

Are you saying additional brett besides what's already in the WY packet should be added?


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## haysie (5/12/10)

manticle said:


> Are you saying additional brett besides what's already in the WY packet should be added?



No, edit, Cracker of a yeast Mants, went 60 points in 72 hours off a 3ltr fresh starter and was still going. Headspace is a must. Its a belgian like yeast 80% +


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## manticle (5/12/10)

Sorry. Misunderstood. Will be ageing for a good bit of time though. Subtle brett is good brett.


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## haysie (5/12/10)

edited above post Manticle. Go the STRONG OLD ALE, no pisfarting around with English IPA`S or ESB`S.


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## BjornJ (6/12/10)

Hi guys,
I have been playing with a recipe for an Old Ale, something quite different from what I would normally brew, just something to put down and take out now and then in small bottles over the next couple of years.

Some really good advice in this thread, really appreciate the help, thanks.

I was thinking something along the lines of 

25 litres
4-5 kg of Pilsner malt just because I have a bit of it
1 kg of Munich
1 kg of wheat
0.3 kg of crystal
Northern Brewer @60 mins and 1 gr/litre of Hallertauer or something at 2 min just for a touch of something or other that probably will fade within 6 months anyway.

this from memory should be about 1.058 and 46 IBUs, then after 3-5 days in the fermenter add 1.5 kg of DME for a total OG of 1.080.

Planning to ferment it cool, 13-15 degrees with a couple of packs of US-04 or US-05 before racking to a cube and putting it in the garage for a couple of months before bottling.
Guessing after that long I would need to add another pack of dry yeast to make sure they carbonate.

1: Is it clever to add the fermentables in two batches rather than try fermenting out from 1.080? Hoping for fewer "funny" flavours from fermenting ultra-high gravity, that's why I'm also thinking of starting fermentation really low. Worst case scenario if the US-05 (or 4, can't decide) doesn't kick off at 13 degrees I'll slowly ramp it up a degree a day until it does.
2: Oxidation, is it possible to leave it in a hdpe cube (or whatever they are called, the fresh wort cubes) for a couple of months, or will oxygen get in and mess it up?
3: Bottle bombs. Will such a ultra high-gravity wort continue to ferment for a long time, possibly creating bottle bombs? or will it be safe to bottle after a month or two in the cube and any maturation/conditioning of the beer is minor stuff that does not create more CO2?
4: Low on crystal? I have read here that people add quite a bit of crystal, is this necessary or more if you like it sweet? I am not hoping for a liquour barley wine kind of sweetness, just a strong, "complex" ale hopefully without too much high alcohol taste and some dry fruit tones. (taking off here, please ignore the last bit)


Would appreciate any input, have never tried this kind of beer before.
Just thinking it would be fun to put something aside for next winter, try a couple of bottles, then again the next winter, etc.


thanks
Bjorn


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## manticle (29/12/10)

A bit late in replying Bjorn but a few months in HDPE is no big deal. I have a sour that's been in plastic for at least 6 months. I keep meaning to rack it into glass but want to have another brew ready to utilise the bugs.

Every so often I taste a sample and have no major oxidation flavours nor massive amounts of aceto (aceto in the bug yeast pack). Admittedly the whole thing is still protected by a pellicle. 

Just make sure your headspace is minimal.

As for bottling - I had the same concern after my first brett beer. It weas suggested to me that under 1006 should be OK but that's using brett which will eat things many other beers find unfermentable. High gravity with 05 will probably just attenuate less rather than comntinue to ferment so the old 3 days at FG rule should be fine.

For crystal complexity try using a couple of varieties (eg some dark, some light, some weyerman, some simpsons etc). A bit of biscuit or vienna will add to the profile as well.


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## avaneyk (5/2/11)

Hi guys,
When you talk about aging cool do you mean cold as in a lager or is it more cellar temps? I'm thinking about doing an old to age until winter and was planning to keep it in my keg fridge. Would this work?

Cheers.


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## avaneyk (5/2/11)

Bump


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## mje1980 (5/2/11)

I think cellar temps would be better. 

I entered this in a local show brew comp, and won first in its category, and best beer of show, with 40.5 out of 50. Pretty happy!. 

79.5% JW trad
6.6% Wheat malt
8% Cara aroma
4% Golden naked oats ( simpsons )
1% Black patent
.9% Lyle's treacle

67c mash, equal amounts calc chloride and gypsum

Galena 60 mins

Chalenger in the cube, 90 g worth but cant pick it in the flavour!!

1968

1.072
43 IBU.

Calc'd it comes down to 1.017, but mine hit 1.012 ( pretty sure, will check later if wanted ).


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## avaneyk (5/2/11)

Makes me wish I had a cellar - don't really want to tie up my fermenting fridge for 6 months.

I might try storing it in the keg fridge like I do with lagers and see how it turns out.

I'm brewing a special bitter today and plan to repitch the yeast for the old ale.


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## avaneyk (9/2/11)

Hi guys,
any advice on the following recipe?

83% Marris Otter
7.5% pale crystal
3.8% dark crystal
1.5% amber malt
0.75% pale choc
3.3% dark candy syrup (leftover from a belgian)

challenger for 60
EKG for 20

Wyeast 1318

OG 1.068; 50 IBU

I'm still deciding whether to use any late hops - I have EKG, a tiny bit of fuggles and challenger.

Cheers,
Andrew.


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## mje1980 (9/2/11)

Loos good mate. As for late hops, i put 90g of challenger in the cube, and i still can't pick the flavour in the beer. Maybe it adds a small dimension to the beer, but i can't say definately.


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## avaneyk (9/2/11)

Thanks :icon_cheers: 

I think I might leave out the late hops this time. I might even leave out the 20min addition and just go for a 60min.


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## bullsneck (11/4/13)

Tony said:


> this is the beer i made that won gold at AABC. I look at it now and think.... WTF was i thinking but it worked. It tasted like crap for the forst 12 months, but an old ale is all about time and it hit its peak after 2 years in cool dark storage.
> 
> strong ale
> 
> ...


What sort of mash regime did you go with here?


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## Tony (11/4/13)

haha that was many years ago 

I expect it was a short protein rest at 52 and then a 60 min rest at 67 deg.

It took a good 12 months of cool storage before it was drinkable... let along wonderful.

I really think the winner for this beer was the TF caramalt that was rated at about 28 ebc i think. It really added this deep seated sweetness that stuck in your mouth once it had aged a couple years.


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## bullsneck (6/5/13)

Brewed and bottled. I don't know if I can wait 1 month! Forget more than a year? Tasted pretty good in primary. Nice and complex. I subbed the Demerara for Lyle's Golden Syrup and Treacle.

If anyone needs an Old Ale recipe - go this one!


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## bradmccoy (4/9/13)

If you can get your hands on it, the Hair of the Dog beer called Adam is an old ale from the US. It is probably the best beer I've ever had. There is a clone recipe for that here:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/05/adambier-hotd-adam-clone.html
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/04/hair-of-dog-adam-clone-tasting.html

Not for beginners (myself included), I'm thinking!


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## jimboy1 (23/3/14)

Bump 

This is my current plan, been fiddling with the specialty grains but hopefully this will give it a nice rainsy/dried fruit, biscuity and toffee/caramel profile with lots of malt!

Estimated OG: 1.086
Color: 40.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 55 IBUs 
Boil Time: 45 Minutes

*Ingredients: *
_Extract:_
1.00 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 6 16.5 %
4.00 kg Light Dry Extract [Boil for5 min] (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 8 66.1 %

_Grains:_
0.30 kg Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) Grain 1 - 4.9 %
0.30 kg Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 2 - 4.9 %
0.20 kg Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess) (55.2 EBC) Grain 3 - 3.3 %
0.05 kg Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1000.8 EBC) Grain 4 - 0.8 %

_Other:_
0.30 kg Brown Sugar, Light (15.8 EBC) Sugar 10 5.0 %

_Hops:_
70.00 g Challenger [7.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min 55.0 IBUs

_Yeast:_
3.0 pkg Nottingham (Danstar) [23.66 ml]

Will most likely brew in a 60L fermentor just to avoid exploding krausen! Hopefully will be all nice and ready by Christmas.


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