# Dough Proof Box



## pdilley (19/12/09)

I finally got off my duff and went into the shed in the sweltering heat and completed building my dough proofing box.

o A large foam box re-used from shipping live animals (fish).
o A light bulb and dimmer switch assembly.
o Space next to the light bulb on the board to place a glass of water which provides humidity inside the box.
o An optional TempMate controller for precise temperature control when not used for the fermenting fridge or for the kegs fridge.

*Photos and even a movie can be provided for those who can not picture what it is like from the description given.

I plan on setting the dimmer switch down load and using the TempMate sensor to help me dial in a low temperature for manual rise mode when I don't have a free TempMate handy.

I looks very christmasy with the whole box lighting up like it does. I only had a 75Watt incandescent handy which heats up rapidly (about .2 to .3 degree jumps each sample from the TempMate) so I have no worries getting up to temp.


I wrote on the lid the "Commercial Bakeries" setting (home can use lower temps but this is what the Pros are listed as using).

38 degrees Celsius with 80% to 85% relative humidity in the box:
Doughnuts rise time is 15 to 20 minutes
Pizza Dough rise time is 30 to 60 minutes
Loaf of Bread rise time is 45 to 60 minutes

I plan on getting into a whole lot of baking now.

I don't have any decent flour to start with, just the crap flour from the supermarket but I am wondering what I should start to try making to give this proof box a spin?

I make a lot of home made pizzas using just Arabic pita bread bases so I guess it would be good to learn how to make really good home made pizza bases so that might be a place to start.

I already have built a stone flour grinding work bench! but still need to source some harvested wheat (probably a 3 hour drive to orange as a local ACT source crapped out when it came time to stand up to the plate to bat) so I will not get decent whole flour with full protein content for a while yet.


Does anyone have a good recipe or list of recipes to share?


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


EDIT: This box has a dual role. I will be making Sake brewing mould spores with it very soon so look for some exciting never before brewed Sake coming out of the ACT home brew scene! :icon_cheers:


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/12/09)

I use this breadmix

http://www.laucke.com.au/retail_premixes.asp

You can buy a 10kg bag for $20 which is great values. Get them at woolies or coles

The sour dough mix is fantastic :icon_drool2:


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## samhighley (20/12/09)

But if the box is dough-proof, how do you get the dough in there?


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## pdilley (20/12/09)

No hyphen in there Sammy  

I'm going to get some measurements out of the box and go shopping.

Turns out I'm pretty low on flour anyway so its a good excuse to find some containers that fit inside the box while letting the heat/humidity board set against the far edge.

Will test fire off a batch of bread today, but tomorrow I already have plans for this baby, I'm growing Mouldy Rice :beer: 

Not just any mouldy rice but the stuff that is required to start making proper Japanese Sake! :wub:

Once I grow out an insane amount of Mouldy Rice then I will give it to SWMBO to do some more breads.



Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (20/12/09)

Alright first run and so far it's awesome 

Best rises I ever got from any bread I've made.

That said I've not sourced any Lauke flour yet. The only lauke was in small bread machine boxes and with a trendy price to match. They had defiance bread flour in the packet but it was soft white so the protein content was only 8.3 or so grams out of 100grams of flour. Not good for much.

Now I did luck out and source some short grain rice although I got the last 10 kilo sack of it in a small Asian shop so it is looking good on the Sake making front.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Bongchitis (20/12/09)

LloydieP advocates the use of Black and Gold flour. I remember reading about it in some of the sourdough threads. High protein etc. I think he is a baker and from the photos appears to make some awesome bread.

The heated box sounds great. Good luck with it.


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## pdilley (20/12/09)

The box does rock! It's getting ready for it's maiden voyage into incubating Sake mould as we speak.

Black and Gold flour!? You mean in the plain flour aisle? I alredy used that before but not in a sourdough. In a standard bread I can get the crumb nice and the gas bubbles evenly sized and spaced but it seems low protein to me and more cake like in its soft texture absent of any chewy texture. 

All the good nutrients have been stripped out by modern mills and sold to farmers as cattle feed so the yeast has not much left to work with in supermarket flours in my experience. You even see some bakers putting yeast nutrient mix additions into flours to improve the performance.

All of which Im hoping to bypass by stone grinding whole flour with all the nutrients left in the flour for the yeasts to work with.

Is the LloydieP still around AHB?


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## Airgead (21/12/09)

Kiala organic unbleached white flour. Marvellous stuff. 15% protein. Lovely pale cream colour. Makes a fantastic loaf.

I usually rise quite a bit cooler and slower. It lets the flavours develop more. High 20s and a 2 or so hour rise for regular bread. Up to 12 hours in the low 20s for the sourdough.

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (21/12/09)

I've not tried but heard the 24 hour + slow rise no knead bread is quite good as well.

Where do you source the Kiala from Dave? decent sized bags?


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (22/12/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> I've not tried but heard the 24 hour + slow rise no knead bread is quite good as well.
> 
> Where do you source the Kiala from Dave? decent sized bags?
> 
> ...



never tried no knead bread. I'm still working with the French kneading from Dough/Crust.

The organics home delivery mob I use will ship a 5kg bag of the Kialla flour. They are Sydney only though and you being a Canberran that doesn't do you much good. 

You can look at their website http://www.kiallafoods.com.au/. That has a list of stockists. A lot of hippy food shops carry it in the smaller sizes.

It also comes in a 20kg sack if you want to buy in serious bulk. I've thought about it but the missus isn't keen on yet more 20kg sacks of stuff sitting round the house.

They do a regular unbleached, high bran and wholemeal in the high protein plus a very nice spelt flour. I think they do a rye as well.

The other one you can try is Demeter Farm Mills (no website) but your hippy food shop may have some. Same basic products as the Kialla.

Cheers
Dave

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (22/12/09)

No hippy shops that I've found yet, I think they all go to the local indian grocery for their beans 

I do have an idea though, more boutique markets area. Will check them out for anything.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## zoigl (24/12/09)

Hi Brewer pete 
Alas my first post has nothing to do with beer

I have yet to make my first AG but I'm working on getting the gear togther, I love your hot box proving idea.

I have used two different books and 2 different approaches to bread making in my search for the perfect loaf
I started with "Artisan Bread in five minutes a day" Jeff Hertzberg and Zoe Francois. They have a web site www.artisanbreadinfive.com
a great idea  

but if you like the darker side, B) then you will get sucked into especially if you like sourdough type, really chewy, bread....then try
"Bread" by Jeffrey Hamelman. 
His recipes suggests using baking formulas just like beer brewing
Any bread flour works from the local supermarket, and the overall formula that I am using is
Bread flour 100% 1kg
Water 69% 690 gm
salt 2% 20 gm
yeast 1.5% 15gm
total yield 172.5%

Start by making a "Poolish" mix together

Bread flour 100% I use 500gm 
Water 100% I use 500gm
Yeast .2% I use 1/8th teaspoon

leave overnight in a smallish tupperware type lidded container 12 to 16 hours, I have left it a couple of days to no ill effect. Leave the lid a little opened

Next in a electric mixer with a dough hook on very low speed (#1)
water 190 gm
bread flour 500gm
and the Poolish
Mix to a shaggy mess

Cover and leave for 20-30 minutes
then sprinkle one and a half teaspoons yeast
salt 1 tablespoon
Mix at #2 speed for 1 to 2 minutes
dough should be 24.5 c and supple and moderately loose
leave covered for 25 minutes, I use glad wrap over the mixing bowl

then remove from bowl, gently flatten the dough and gently fold each edge into the middle once for each side.

repeat the folding process after another 25 minutes

25 minutes later cut into 2 pieces and place on a baker's canvas sheet/tea towel and cover with plastic for the final proof

Meantime preheat the oven to 237c

Now if you want a crusty crust then the secret is to add steam, I have a hi-tech Miele steam oven, but a cup of water in a lower tray helps

Put the bread on a tray, pizza stone if you have one and bake for 35 minutes, opening the door a little bit about hafway through the time to vent the steam

Let it cool before cutting other wise you will end up with a soggy loaf. The bread continues to cook while cooling down.

I hope that you like this bread, 
Cheers and merry christmas


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## pdilley (24/12/09)

Cheers for the bread recipes Vespa2, and first post too!

I'm still waiting on my Sake rice spores to finish incubation but I'll give these a go over the holidays break.

Merry Christmas to you and yours,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (25/12/09)

Dave and all interested in no knead bread.


Here is better than words, a video!

Get out those dutch ovens if you have them 





EDIT: Article on why Dutch Oven technique works well for bread making here.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (27/12/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Dave and all interested in no knead bread.
> 
> 
> Here is better than words, a video!
> ...




I've seen some stuff on the no knead before but have yet to give it a try. I might give it a go with the kids while I'm off over the xmas break.

I've been meaning tot try the Duch oven thing for a while too. Keeps the himidty up and helps crust formation. 

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (29/12/09)

Dave you make me jealous with your 15% protein flour. I tried the local boutique market but its been closed both times I went.

15% Protein is the bare minimum required to make proper New York Pizza Dough. Try making one round of NY Style and report back just for giggles:

NY Pizza Dough is a Nutritionally Lean recipe that needs 5 days rising in the fridge! (2 if you can not wait) and yes this style of making the dough is necessary to get the true NY Pizza Dough Style


Ingredients:
1/4 tsp dry yeast
1 cup water (yes adjust depending on your flour's condition in your current humidity level)
1 tsp sugar
1 tsp salt
1 tsp oil (eliminate if only using lower protein flour)
Flour (15% Protein required for real NY, bread flour for less than satisfactory but passable results - NO plain flour!)

Note on Flour: 15% Protein is achieved from Spring planted wheats. Bread flour and plain flour are winter wheats. Because wheat is a plant, depending on growing conditions final protein content is 14%-16%.

If you want fast 2 day dough double the yeast but lose the flavour from 5 days of enzyme action.
If you go the 5 days and minimal yeast you get best flavour. If it gets to overproof condition *never ever EVER* rework the dough, just push it down with finger points. Letting overproof rise to 3 times volume will allow it to re-weaken protein.
Twice size is normal time to use the dough. Long slow rise with less yeast gives you more flavour and longer life from your dough.


Instructions:
1. Forget all bread making steps you use, follow these instead.
2. Yeast disolved in warm water, add sugar, then slow down fermentation by adding cold water. If your crust does not brown to your liking add more sugar next time.
3. Add salt and oil and flour to make a smooth batter consistency about 2 minutes of mixing.
4. Add remaining flour to make a stiff dough but stop if its already stiff early or add more from bag if not stiff enough at end.
5. Knead dough 5 to 8 minutes will suffice. Initially weak will become very elastic when pulled near end of kneading. if you want pastry style crust don't knead at all just stick it into the fridge.
6. Place in air tight container or bag with enough room for two or even three times expansion and seal and place in refrigerator. Coat the dough with some oil or oil spray.
7. Wait 5 days or until ready. Non-aged dough will result in worse quality pizzas.
8. If rising too fast don't re-knead or mix, just punch with fingertips. Add less yeast next time.
9. Never freeze, use fresh or bake into blank crusts for storage.
10. Hand shape for traditional style, roll thin for cracker style.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## nickel (29/12/09)

Thanks Pete for the very interesting no knead bread making links, I use too take it for granted being born and breed in Grifffith with a high Italian ancestry buying this style of bread super crunchy crust and light and airy inside on a daily basics. Hopefuly no more need for stocking up when I'm back there visiting family I'll give it go at home, and good luck with sake. :icon_drool2:


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## pdilley (29/12/09)

nickel said:


> Thanks Pete for the very interesting no knead bread making links, I use too take it for granted being born and breed in Grifffith with a high Italian ancestry buying this style of bread super crunchy crust and light and airy inside on a daily basics. Hopefuly no more need for stocking up when I'm back there visiting family I'll give it go at home, and good luck with sake. :icon_drool2:




Cheers Nickel


*NY DOUGH CORRECTION*
Firm Dough, well actually its quite soft after you mix the flour in and everything is still wet. Soft and spongy but as you knead the dough it gets tough and elastic after 5 to 8 minutes.


Should help everyone make some awesome dough!


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (29/12/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Dave you make me jealous with your 15% protein flour. I tried the local boutique market but its been closed both times I went.



The Kialla website shows a stockist in Queanbeyan which shouldn't be too far away from you - 

Queanbeyan
Colours By Nature
PO Box 1188
Queanbeyan NSW 2620
PHONE 1300 249 347
WEB: http://www.coloursbynature.com.au/

Actually the last batch I got was only showing 13.5% protein. I think its a bit seasonal. Still 13.5% is not too shabby. Makes a nice loaf. Polished off a nice brown sourdough loaf tonight with a shoulder of lamb I roasted and smoked on the BBQ. *burp*

Here's the spec sheet - 

http://www.kiallafoods.com.au/Uploads/Prod...ain%20flour.pdf

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (2/1/10)

I have to wait until they are open but Colour by Nature is an ECO-paint and ECO-building supply company. Not sure if they really will be selling sacks of flour on the show room floor.

The local markets are shut until Jan 7th so no ability to find out what higher protein flour they have.

I have a local asian market asking about high protein flour as they order in all the restaurants supplies for the territory.

I have a local coop that may be another venue but they are shut until half-way through January as well 

I'll find 15% flour one day 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## domonsura (2/1/10)

Just head to your local Campbells cash & carry and buy *strong flour/pizza flour/bread flour*. What matters is the gluten content, that's what gives you the stretch that allows the dough to prove/proof. (depends on which hemisphere you're in as to how it is referred to) I woud stay away from breadmixes as they tend to cost way more than necessary and can have all sorts of crap in them, (stabilisers, free flow agents etc.....) If you get desperate, ask your local bakery or pizza shop where they buy their flour from.

When you find some good strong flour, this is my favourite trusted and true pizza dough recipe......have used it in more than one commercial pizza shop.

375 ml water @37 deg C
40ml olive oil (4tbsp)
8 grams bakers yeast 2 tsp
12 gm sugar
mix in a jar, shake and loosen off lid. keep in a warm place & measure out other ingredients while waiting for krausen.

In a mixer, place;

500gms strong flour
7 gms salt (1tsp)
50gms coarse semolina (4tbsp)
Add frothing yeast mix, mix on slow until combined then 2/3rd speed until 'slapping sides' (google 'dough windowpane test' to get an explanation of how to see when dough is properly stretched). If dough gets overmixed, rest and allow to relax, knocking back as required.
use 11grams of dough per 1cm of pizza pan circumference (ie: 30cm pan = 330grams of dough). Excess dough can be frozen and thawed/re-risen as required, so I suggest portioning before freezing. I usually make a few kg at a time, portion and use as required...(just scale the recipe up as required)...take one/two portions out in the afternoon and roll out when thawed and risen.....

Use a mix of tasty/mozarella and parmesian for better flavour....don't put too much topping on as it will stopthe base from cooking properly, and spread topping away from centre a bit...it will draw back in as it cooks. Just a spray or light brushing of oil in the pizza pan, as there is already oil in the dough.
Sauce...cheese....topping...cheese...seasoning.....cook @ 220-240 deg C for about 10 minutes ....TOO EASY!! Enjoy


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## pdilley (3/1/10)

domonsura said:


> Just head to your local Campbells cash & carry and buy *strong flour/pizza flour/bread flour*. What matters is the gluten content, that's what gives you the stretch that allows the dough to prove/proof. (depends on which hemisphere you're in as to how it is referred to) I woud stay away from breadmixes as they tend to cost way more than necessary and can have all sorts of crap in them, (stabilisers, free flow agents etc.....) If you get desperate, ask your local bakery or pizza shop where they buy their flour from.




Cheers for that tip domonsura, I have one and exactly one Campbells store. Of course they are shut  so I will have to wait to try them out for a flour source.

Also looking around the area for paver guys to find some terra cotta. All I've dug up with local building shops is terra cotta floor tile with glaze which is out on two counts, too thin and has glazing. Once I get a stoneware system setup on the shelf on the oven then if Campbells has peels as well then I will be all set!


Cheers,
Brewer pete


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## domonsura (4/1/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> if Campbells has peels as well then I will be all set!
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer pete



They do here, ali blade with wooden broom handle type handle....reasonably priced I guess (I think about $25? can't remember sorry) , but I'm not sure how long the ones I saw would last before they dropped your pizza on your feet. Maybe some 'pre-use precautionary strengthening' may be in order.....


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## pdilley (9/1/10)

Fast update, thanks to Wayne I have some Allied Pizza flour (all I could find really) and will get to give the box a good workout if I can free it from the job of making mouldy rice 

The pizza flour said 11% (not on the bag or on allied mills web page but buried deep in their site) but did not list the type of wheat (hard red spring wheat I am hoping) so I should be able to do pizza and perhaps bagels. Bread flour is usually high protein wheat with malted barley flour in a small percentage mixed in to promote yeast growth and more co2 production than 100% pure wheat flour so I think I'll get to use my stone mill to grind some malted barley flour for the first time 



Mine did not have pizza peels, stones, or other hardware gear so I'll still have to find a proper paver place with Terra cotta or proper stoneware and not the coloured cement rubbish at the local Bunnings.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (9/1/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> Bread flour is usually high protein wheat with malted barley flour in a small percentage mixed in to promote yeast growth and more co2 production than 100% pure wheat flour so I think I'll get to use my stone mill to grind some malted barley flour for the first time



BP

No bread flour I've ever seen has barley flour in it. Maybe in the premixed breadmaker kits but all the bakers flour I buy is 100% wheat.

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (10/1/10)

Hey Dave. The interwebs is where I got the reference from. Perhaps its what is sold to bakers as a bread flour enhancer? I'll have to dig up the web page but it mentioned that it was 99.9% wheat flour mixed with a small percentage of malted barley flour.

I gave the pizza flour a run last night and got a good rise, but I rubbed my fingers through the flour and it did not feel coarse milled. A bit too fine milled from my memory. I drove to a specialty shop to bite the bullet and get pizza stones but he was shut (the nerve!)  so I ended up going without. The rise was great, but the crumb and gluten levels were not there. More bread like than pizza dough like.

I got 11% off of a deep scouring of Allied Mills web site, its not published on any easy to get to page.

Will give it a go making bread and give it a slow rise treatment in the fridge to see if it improves. It could be down to technique after all but it got a good 8 minutes kneading at least if not more and a big rise in the proof box which was awesome to see after i got back from the shops. Best rise to date in any flours I've used.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (30/1/10)

I modified Vespa2's recipe as the proof box nearly cut all the rise times down in half.

I really like this proof box, its awesome 
Most important it adds consistency to both temperature and humidity so I can work on improving each recipe unique to this box and get them to come out spot on every time.


I got this lovely set of loaf tins risen in about 20 minutes:




Underneath both tins I had this bowl with the next batch just starting.
This photo was taken about 34 minutes later than above when the first bread was out of the oven and I could get those tins back!
More like triple than double in size. Time was about 40 minutes.



Then out of the oven was the first loaf:



And onto a rack to cool along with its twin:



The tins were cooled under the tap and immediately loaded with that bowl of freshly risen dough which was knocked back, rolled and formed into the tins.

6 more minutes and I need to go pop them in the oven.


Found out I could theoretically fit 6 tins in my oven at one go. That means I could knock off 12 loaves in just an hour and half of baking time and minimise my electric use and get all my loaves baked for the next week or two.

Starting to feel excited now 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (30/1/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> The tins were cooled under the tap and immediately loaded with that bowl of freshly risen dough which was knocked back, rolled and formed into the tins.



Here's a hint - take the loaves out of the tins half to 2/3 the way through cooking. It allows the bottom and sides to brown up and develop a little crust. 

It also means you get your tins back sooner...

Cheers
Dave

P.S. Baked 24 brown rolls this afternoon...


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## pdilley (30/1/10)

Cheers for the tip Dave.


I reduced the final rise in the tins to only 16 minutes. This has resulted in perfectly round smooth-as-a-baby-bottom tops to all the tin loaves without any spillover like one of the first batch did.

I also jam a butter knife in the over door half way through baking to let more moisture out in the final bake.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (13/2/10)

Raining since it was dark outside this morning and still going, cold as anything. Wife's away. what to do? Bake Bread!

I got the box, the power to do bread any weather consistently so why not.


Today we have two variations on the theme going.

First Two Loaves:
10 % Galaxy Malted Barley, ground into wholemeal and then four coarse screenings to remove the large chaff while leaving lots of smaller flecks of husk for fibre.
90 % Strong Flour
So 100gm Barley Flour, 900gm Strong Flour
Water at 690gm and Salt at 20gm
Using Lowans yeast this time, giant tin with heaps of yeast for next to nothing.

and the second variation

Last Two Loaves:
100% Strong Flour 1kg
Whole Milk at 690gm
Salt at 20gm
Lowans yeast


Going for an interesting bread on the first batch, I've read up to 50% Barley flour can be used, I'm starting low at 10% but keeping it wholemeal.

Going for a English Milk loaf on the second.

Oven's fired up, dough has proofed like buggary in this proof box, lets see how they turn out!


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (16/2/10)

I switched to a longer proofing period as described in the recipe for milk loaf I had in an old book.

One thing I noticed is this produced a more dense loaf, and one tin I dropped onto the bench and the long proofing collapsed, as a sign of over proof. I will switch for milk loaf back to my normal proof routine I developed with the first loaves made with this box.

For baking, only after baking the barley loaves did I find a recipe for one with a long time period, cooler temperature baking schedule, that of oatmeal breads. As a result the normal temperature was too hot and the sugars caramelised and quickly turned to burning. I pulled the loaves out a few minutes early and they did not get to develop the internal temperature to keep cooking them through when cooling, so I ended up with the typical fault of uncooked centres.

The milk loaves turned out a lot better, almost perfect, but again milk has sugars in it so they came out with dark top crusts which tasted fine, just might be considered a baking fault by a picky bread book. I will also adjust their temperature down and lengthen the baking time on the next batch.

I have four milk loaves planned for this weeks baking so lets see how they turn out with the modifications mentioned above.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (16/2/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> I switched to a longer proofing period as described in the recipe for milk loaf I had in an old book.
> 
> One thing I noticed is this produced a more dense loaf, and one tin I dropped onto the bench and the long proofing collapsed, as a sign of over proof. I will switch for milk loaf back to my normal proof routine I developed with the first loaves made with this box.



You might be able to do the long proof if you lower the temp. I find a longer, cooler proof gives a better development of flavours.

I have been known to proof for 12 or 18 hours in the fridge...

Cheers
Dave

Edit - In an old baking book they are probably proofing at room temp (no temp controlled proofing boxes back then). Unless its a commercial baking book in which case they might have used higher temp.


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## pdilley (28/2/10)

Cheers Dave,

I'll have to go slow for artisan styles. This baking is for my sandwich bread for work lunches. The flavour is already above what I buy in the stores for a standard white loaf so no complaints.


Doing an upgrade to the dough proof box. Adding one of these:


SKU 3172
Now I get a clock inside the box to time begin/end proof with and temperature and humidity gauge to help track each proof session against the previous. At this price the humid environment should kill it after years and years of use but no worry, get another as a replacement.
Not bad for about $9 including shipping to Australia.



Adding a general temp probe as well but not for this box, but for the baking and also for the mashing of beers:


SKU 11694
Gives me a fast measuring (second or so) digital thermometer where most of them I saw were very slow 22 seconds of 2 second sample time to get a locked accurate reading. Also as a benefit the probe is in the very tip so good for placement in a loaf of bread centre to get my baking down pat with proper internal loaf temperature before removal from the oven. And even better, 2nd use in the mashing of beers.
Not bad for about $6 including the shipping to Australia.


And of course, got some more dough getting ready to go into the proof box for this weeks baking. 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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