# Difficult water profile - Perth



## DustyRusty (12/2/19)

Hello 

Just about to complete my first all grain set up. Been doing extract + grains for years. Requested a water report for my local treatment plant. Here it is:

Here's my report:
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) - Median 73 
Calcium (mg/L) - Median 23
Chloride (mg/L) - Median 177
Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) - Median 71
Magnesium (mg/L) - Median 4.3
Sodium (mg/L) - Median 117
Sulphate (mg/L) - Median 13
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) (mg/L) - Median 473
Ph - Median 7.8

Been reading Palmer etc on water. Is this useable? I'm worried about the high sodium level and also very high chloride to sulphate ratio. I could raise the sulphates but that would mean highish sulphate along with high sodium which Palmer says will mean harsh tasting beer. I don't have the budget for a RO filter. Any solutions? I tend to like amber to dark beers but also love a saison in summer. Not interested in lagers or pilsners, but a decent APA every now and then is worthwhile.


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## krz (12/2/19)

Shit, didnt know your water was that bad. I looked up water profiles using beersmith, but couldnt find someplace higher than 177 in Na.

Buy a rainwater tank?


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## MHB (12/2/19)

Do us a favour, post up the original data or a link to it.
There ate a couple of things there that don't quite add up.
Mark


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## DustyRusty (12/2/19)

Sorry i did put calcium as 23 when it should have been 21. But everything else seems correct. File attached. Damn it! Just spent all this $$$ on setting up a 3v system only to discover my water is shite. Really don't want to have to fork out for a RO filter - wife will kill me.


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## DustyRusty (12/2/19)

krz said:


> Shit, didnt know your water was that bad. I looked up water profiles using beersmith, but couldnt find someplace higher than 177 in Na.
> 
> Buy a rainwater tank?



I think you misread or mistyped it. Sodium is 117 - it's chloride that is 177.

I think something like 50% of our water in Perth is from desalination. Another good chunk is groundwater. Hence, the sodium and chloride. Helps us in drought, but I guess doesn't help the beer.


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## Mat (13/2/19)

Have you thought about using bottled water for a percentage of your water? 50% bottled water should halve most of your numbers.
Coles has 10L jugs for $4. Not ideal I know, but it's an easy stopgap until you can get an RO system past the missus.


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## MHB (13/2/19)

Really the biggest problem is the amount of common salt (NaCl), as Mat said diluting your water about 50% with purified water would be a big step in the right direction. That or learn to like Gose.
Your Carbonate is also high, you could ask how much of it is temporary hardness (do you get much scale in your jug) if so boiling your water might help with the carbonate, but wont fix the Salt.
Before I went to a RoMo I would be investing in a decent pH meter and some food grade acid, in your case Lactic would be my first choice (all the others add more ionic compounds and you already have plenty).

Do a bit of a search, we have a couple of local businesses that supply purified water, mostly for office water coolers and the like. Ring around you might be able to get some cubes filled for a lot less than you think.
Mind you once your missus gets a taste for filtered water it might be a lot easier to get approval for the RoMo, might be a good idea to make filtered water available in the kitchen for making tea and coffee, cold fridge water...
Mark


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## RobB (13/2/19)

Before you get too depressed, those numbers are pretty typical for large areas of Perth and people have been making good beer with this water. Knock out the chlorine with a campden tablet and go for it.

The NaCl will favour maltier flavours which should work for those amber and dark beers you like. I eventually bought an RO unit so I could make really pale beers the way I wanted them, but not before making some great beer with Perth tap water minus the chlorine. Amber ales and porters were always the best.

+1 on the pH meter and start saving for an RO unit down the track, but you haven't built a white elephant.


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## DustyRusty (13/2/19)

RobB said:


> Before you get too depressed, those numbers are pretty typical for large areas of Perth and people have been making good beer with this water. Knock out the chlorine with a campden tablet and go for it.
> 
> The NaCl will favour maltier flavours which should work for those amber and dark beers you like. I eventually bought an RO unit so I could make really pale beers the way I wanted them, but not before making some great beer with Perth tap water minus the chlorine. Amber ales and porters were always the best.
> 
> +1 on the pH meter and start saving for an RO unit down the track, but you haven't built a white elephant.



Thanks mate. I was suspecting what you said as I thought about this too. Read this yesterday: http://brulosophy.com/2018/01/22/wa...impact-of-sodium-on-beer-exbeeriment-results/

Interesting that despite the high sodium and chloride a decent beer was still made. Might be a very different story with a beer with more hop bitterness though. I discovered I can buy demineralised drinking water from the supermarket for $8.50 for 10 litres. That's not too bad for now. Think I'll add some of that in - less for maltier beers and a lot for the lighter, hoppier ones. Thanks for the help.


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## MHB (13/2/19)

Don't put too much weight on what brulosophy have to say, far as I can tell in every "test" they have done - nothing matters.
Take that far enough and a teaspoon of malt stirred into a mug of hot water equals beer. A lot of what they say is complete BS or just flat fails to take into account a hell of a lot of factors that do accumulate to make a big difference.
Mark


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## markp (13/2/19)

A lot of petrol stations in Perth have penguin water stations, they’re water is of reasonable quality and only about $6 I believe for 15-20 ltrs you have to supply your own container for the water


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## DustyRusty (13/2/19)

markp said:


> A lot of petrol stations in Perth have penguin water stations, they’re water is of reasonable quality and only about $6 I believe for 15-20 ltrs you have to supply your own container for the water



Thanks! Do you know if it's spring water or distilled/RO/demineralised?


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## DustyRusty (13/2/19)

markp said:


> A lot of petrol stations in Perth have penguin water stations, they’re water is of reasonable quality and only about $6 I believe for 15-20 ltrs you have to supply your own container for the water


 
Wow. Just emailed them and got a reply in seconds. He said they filter water from each station and:

PURIFICATION PROCESS
--------------------

1. MICRON SEDIMENT FILTRATION removes all suspended solids such as sand,
silt, rust and algae.

2. ACTIVATED CARBON FILTRATION eliminates pesticides, chlorine, noxious
gases and odours.

3. REVERSE OSMOSIS FILTRATION ensures water is purified of virtually all
total dissolved solids including salt, lead, mercury, pesticides, and
micro-organisms.

4. Secondary ACTIVATED CARBON FILTRATION removes harmful gases, odours
and freshens the water.

5. ULTRAVIOLET STERILIZATION LAMP prevents secondary contamination by
bacteria.

Not sure exactly what that means in terms of what I punch into my brewing software. Would I regard this as basically zero on the minerals?


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## Mat (13/2/19)

DustyRusty said:


> Wow. Just emailed them and got a reply in seconds. He said they filter water from each station and:
> 
> PURIFICATION PROCESS
> --------------------
> ...



Yep zeroes all round


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## markp (13/2/19)

DustyRusty said:


> Wow. Just emailed them and got a reply in seconds. He said they filter water from each station and:
> 
> PURIFICATION PROCESS
> --------------------
> ...



Dusty, a few of the better brewers at the club I am a member of use this water and regularly win comps [emoji106]treat as ro for sure


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## enikoy (13/2/19)

I bought one of these RO filters recently. Very happy with it for $80 (with ebay deal). The two batches I have done with it (Yokine WA) have come through smoother tasting, an improvement for sure. Probably used it 4x as much for drinking water and the soda stream. Will work out much cheaper than the wife's beloved Britta jug filters.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/705-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=132439770303


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## mischa6262 (15/2/19)

DustyRusty said:


> Wow. Just emailed them and got a reply in seconds. He said they filter water from each station and:
> 
> PURIFICATION PROCESS
> --------------------
> ...


Hey DustyRusty
Just my 2 bobs worth ( I used to build RO plants) as good as that filtering you list above (and it is correct) if you drink that water you WILL have endotoxins in the water which are extremely dangerous to ingest.
Post UV should ALWAYS have a sub micron filter of at least 0.2uM to remove the endotoxins.
But as i say, im not the one drinking it, and id never drink RO water anyway for the reason stated


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## DustyRusty (19/2/19)

mischa6262 said:


> Hey DustyRusty
> Just my 2 bobs worth ( I used to build RO plants) as good as that filtering you list above (and it is correct) if you drink that water you WILL have endotoxins in the water which are extremely dangerous to ingest.
> Post UV should ALWAYS have a sub micron filter of at least 0.2uM to remove the endotoxins.
> But as i say, im not the one drinking it, and id never drink RO water anyway for the reason stated



Thanks for your help. Interesting. If I understand it correctly, endotoxins are released by bacteria when exposed to that UV treatment. But considering the RO would have filtered out nearly all of the bacteria anyway, wouldn't the potential endotoxin level be so low its benign? I would of course prefer another filter, but this seems a little different to a UV only treatment system which would result in a much higher level of bacteria in the water affected by the UV. I may have misunderstood this.


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## MHB (19/2/19)

I wouldn't be too worried, if you buy a decent RoMo filter it will have particulate and carbon filters up front. These take out a lot of stuff that can damage the membrane in the reverse osmosis part of the filter, if you are looking at a filter that hasn't got up front P&C filters - keep looking.

I have really nice water here, just go through a standard P&C to remove mud and Cl, my system has a UV steriliser but that only gets used when I want water for yeast work, water that isn't getting boiled as part of the process.
Mark


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## ABG (20/2/19)

@DustyRusty check with a local aquarium supplier. Many have RO water for sale at prices that will leave most other places in the dust. It's a good way of checking how much difference an RO system can make to your brewing before shelling out for a filter.


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## DustyRusty (20/2/19)

ABG said:


> @DustyRusty check with a local aquarium supplier. Many have RO water for sale at prices that will leave most other places in the dust. It's a good way of checking how much difference an RO system can make to your brewing before shelling out for a filter.



Thanks everyone. Unlikely to buy a filter at this stage. As above, just looking at buying demineralised water for each batch. $6 a refill is a pretty good deal.


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## mischa6262 (22/2/19)

DustyRusty said:


> Thanks for your help. Interesting. If I understand it correctly, endotoxins are released by bacteria when exposed to that UV treatment. But considering the RO would have filtered out nearly all of the bacteria anyway, wouldn't the potential endotoxin level be so low its benign? I would of course prefer another filter, but this seems a little different to a UV only treatment system which would result in a much higher level of bacteria in the water affected by the UV. I may have misunderstood this.



OK just to clarify for you:
1: An RO will not filter out bacteria
2: Pre treatment of water for RO purposes is usually treated with 5um poly spun pre filter and a 4-7uM Carbon filter to remove chlorine which if not the chlorine will greatly diminish the life of the RO membranes.
3: Also a water softener will also extend the life of the RO membranes (optional) you can get a water softener cartridge that fits a standard filter housing in either 10" or 20".
4: As i said post RO should ALWAYS be UV treated as it then kills the bacteria and in that process this creates the endotoxins
5: The endotoxins can then ONLY be removed with a sub micron filter of around 0.2 micron
6: If you're just going to pass town water through a UV system then IMO good luck i wouldnt be drinking it or RO water for that matter
just offering my expertise in building of RO plants


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## DustyRusty (24/2/19)

mischa6262 said:


> OK just to clarify for you:
> 1: An RO will not filter out bacteria



I fully respect you have significant experience here but everything I have read about RO systems claims they filter bacteria. If bacteria are around .2microns in size and a RO membrane is only just larger than .0001microns, how do they not filter bacteria? Some quick googling:

https://epa-water.com/does-a-reverse-osmosis-filter-remove-bacteria-from-tap-water/

http://www.mississippiexplorer.com/germs-removed-by-reverse-osmosis/

https://www.culligan.com/home/solut...at-water-problems-does-reverse-osmosis-remove

I acknowledge that if there is something wrong with the system you might have bacteria but in a properly working system it shouldn’t. That is unless everyone is wrong and you know something they don’t. Happy to be convinced otherwise. Thanks for your help


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## mischa6262 (26/2/19)

OK ill re clarify
My mistake, an RO will remove bacteria.
BUT:
If you are treating the water with carbon that removes chlorine, tastes and odours, this in-turn lets bacteria thrive in the water
Which in normal situations you will then get bacteria in the water.
You use UV to remove the bacteria, this then creates endotoxins which need the sub micron filter at a min 0.2uM
(just trying to assist you not tryin to be a know it all smart ass - as no one knows everything)
Ill leave it here now


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## DustyRusty (26/2/19)

mischa6262 said:


> OK ill re clarify
> My mistake, an RO will remove bacteria.
> BUT:
> If you are treating the water with carbon that removes chlorine, tastes and odours, this in-turn lets bacteria thrive in the water
> ...



thanks for all your help


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