# Strange Taste In Every Brew



## Inge (29/4/08)

Every single one of the last 3 AG brews I put down has developed a strange taste. I can only describe it as a semi-sweet synthetic, plastic or chemical kind of taste. It masks most hop flavour, all malt flavour, and increases the perception of bitterness. Makes the beer utterly undrinkable. 

I am sure it's not an infection, as I'm scrupulous with hygeine, and there is no visible cultures on or in the wort even after 4 weeks at 22 (a little experiment of my own). It's not a phenolic taste, or like any of the other flavours you would associate with an infection.

I initially thought it may have been plasticisers leaching out of my racking hose, as the problems generally appeared after immediately after racking, however my current brew has developed the taste in primary, becoming really apparent right after cold conditioning. 

It's not the no-chill cube, as full boil partials tasted fine coming out of it. I used a different mash tun for the partials.

So I'm thinking of some possible scenarios.

1) The flavour is coming from the fermenter - I used the same fermenter for primary for this brew as I did for secondary last brew. So either the flavour originates from the fermenter itself, or plasticisers from the racking hose don't wash out. 

2) Residual cleaning chemicals - I'm using percarbonate to clean, Iodophor to sanitise. 

3) Remnant of rubber tubing from inside of the SS braid - I used the blowtorch method to get it out. Thinking this could be a likely cause of the problem.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments? I don't want to pour another cent into this until the problem is rectified.

My rig


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Come to think if it, 4 brews ago I did a K + K muntons IPA. Same taste, so rule out the mash tun.


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## pint of lager (29/4/08)

If you think it comes from your braid, grab the braid, soak it in clean very hot water for 30 minutes, let the water cool and taste the water.

Sodium percarbonate lingers. You need to rinse well, then follow with a kettle of boiling water.

Iodine, if used at super strength can leave a nasty twang. Taste (no need to swallow) some of your made up sanitiser and see if that is the same flavour.

To rule out your fermenter adding flavour, you can fill it with water, leave for a week and taste the water.

It does sound like an infection. Are you using fresh yeast from a known source or making up starters from possibly dodgy source? An infection does not necessarily leave a film on the surface.


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## matti (29/4/08)

what type of beer are you brewing.
diacetyl taste filmy in excess. In lager it come out as butter scotch.

Oxidisation taste a bit like carboard and will flaw even the hoppiest brew. it may taste a bit like chemicals.

Lactic acid is sour and silky and even the smallest amount can be detected in any brew.
It destroys the fullness.

Tannins are in excess the most likely culprit.
It accentuates bitterness and shortens the longevity of storing the beer.
It taste very strong and the flavour of the beer can taste slighty burned at times and to me a bit phosphoric.

Sulphur (matchbox) flavour will dissipate with proper lagering.

Does the beer poor a god head or are the flat?

Good luck


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## Stuster (29/4/08)

Are you sure it's not an infection? Could it be described as a band aid taste? Just sounds like it to me. It won't necessarily make the beer look any different to any other beer and being scrupulous about hygiene won't necessarily protect you from it (though it'll help). What yeasts have you used? It shouldn't be the cleaning/sterilising products you use (as long as you rinse out the percarbonate thoroughly). Although, is it pure percarbonate? Could it have perfume added?


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## reVoxAHB (29/4/08)

Inge said:


> 1) The flavour is coming from the fermenter - I used the same fermenter for primary for this brew as I did for secondary last brew. So either the flavour originates from the fermenter itself



To me, it sounds like an infection potentially coming from any one of the bits of gear you mentioned, so you may need to keep swapping bits until you nail it. 

Are you fermenting in plastic? 

Grab a 23L glass carboy with fresh bung and ferm your next batch in it. If the batch comes clean, you can put it down to the ferm vessel.

Are you using the SS Braid in the bottom of your tun? Why not replace it, or borrow a false bottom (etc) from a mate (for a trial batch). Doesn't sound like the no-chill cube is the culprit, but if you've got another freely available, give it the swap too or chill your next batch and skip the cube altogether. 

Point is, if you think it's gear related, swap bits (as is possible) until you locate the source of your woes. 

reVox


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## Inge (29/4/08)

pint of lager said:


> If you think it comes from your braid, grab the braid, soak it in clean very hot water for 30 minutes, let the water cool and taste the water.
> 
> Sodium percarbonate lingers. You need to rinse well, then follow with a kettle of boiling water.
> 
> ...



Yeast was dry... I made up the Iodophor as per directions (1:1000). Didn't rinse, of course. Thanks for the advice re: the braid, I'm going to try that right now.



Stuster said:


> Are you sure it's not an infection? Could it be described as a band aid taste? Just sounds like it to me. It won't necessarily make the beer look any different to any other beer and being scrupulous about hygiene won't necessarily protect you from it (though it'll help). What yeasts have you used? It shouldn't be the cleaning/sterilising products you use (as long as you rinse out the percarbonate thoroughly). Although, is it pure percarbonate? Could it have perfume added?



It's the Cooper's percarbonate, so it's unperfumed. I used US-05 for the yeast, rehydrated and pitched at 20 degrees. It's not a bandaid taste - I wish it were, that way I'd know what to do about it! :lol: 



matti said:


> what type of beer are you brewing.
> diacetyl taste filmy in excess. In lager it come out as butter scotch.
> 
> Oxidisation taste a bit like carboard and will flaw even the hoppiest brew. it may taste a bit like chemicals.
> ...



It's an APA using cascade, chinook and northern brewer for bittering. There's no carbonation, so no head to speak of. It's definitely not diacetyl, or a lactic infection or sulphur. Possibly oxidation or tannins.

Ok - that's narrowed it down to a handful:

Tannins - my sparge water is kept at about 80 degrees - I did get a bit of flour into the kettle, but I thought the tannins came from the husks?

Oxidation - Maybe. I haven't splashed it about at all (except on the hot side, but that was minimal)... 

Residual Percarbonate - How would you describe the taste of percarbonate? I'm thinking this might be the culprit, as I haven't rinsed with boiling water ever, only cold water. Breaks down into H2O2, no? Would explain why it happened in my kit and kilo also... Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure it only started when I switched from neo pink to percarbonate.

I'm inclined to think the horrible flavour could be a combination of lingering percabonate and oxidation from the H2O2.

What do you reckon?


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Just tasted the soak water from the braid.

Tasted like water to me... Can rule that one out.


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## Julez (29/4/08)

Just out of interest, does this taste change over time? I have had a similar experience, have noticed a cardboardy taste and accentuated bitterness around week 3 then by week 4 it has dissipated quite a bit. In my case I am looking at the possibility of oxidation. Apparently one of the highest risk-times for oxidation to occur is at dough-in temps, so you even need to be quite careful adding your strike water to the mash tun. I also no-chill, which I am wondering about as well...

What is your process for transfering water or wort from vessel to vessel? 

Found this "Basic Brewing Radio" story recently, where a few guys do an experiment to test the results of hot-side aeration/oxidation. Worth a listen, at least to the last one in the series... http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/2006/11/basic-...e-aeration.html


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Julez said:


> Just out of interest, does this taste change over time? I have had a similar experience, have noticed a cardboardy taste and accentuated bitterness around week 3 then by week 4 it has dissipated quite a bit. In my case I am looking at the possibility of oxidation. Apparently one of the highest risk-times for oxidation to occur is at dough-in temps, so you even need to be quite careful adding your strike water to the mash tun. I also no-chill, which I am wondering about as well...
> 
> What is your process for transfering water or wort from vessel to vessel?
> 
> Found this "Basic Brewing Radio" story recently, where a few guys do an experiment to test the results of hot-side aeration/oxidation. Worth a listen, at least to the last one in the series... http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/2006/11/basic-...e-aeration.html



I try to minimise HSA by adding my grain to the strike water and stirring slowly. Will give it a listen :lol:


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## Darren (29/4/08)

Could simply be a nasty dose of Chinook. What the the IBU??

cheers

Darren


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## Julez (29/4/08)

Inge said:


> I try to minimise HSA by adding my grain to the strike water and stirring slowly. Will give it a listen :lol:



Cool - just listen to the last episode, as John Palmer comes in and points out a serious error in their experimentation process (this is the interesting bit, about lipoxegenase). From about 8 minutes onwards in the podcast.


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Darren said:


> Could simply be a nasty dose of Chinook. What the the IBU??
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren


Here's the recipe. Only a little bit of chinook...

Brew Type: All Grain Date: 15/04/2008
Style: American Pale Ale Brewer: Teaganbrau
Batch Size: 21.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 25.08 L Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 % Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Actual Efficiency: 64.1 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 62.5 %
2.00 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 35.7 %
0.10 kg Crystal Malt - Australian Grain (108.2 EBC) Grain 1.8 %
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (30 min) Hops 11.0 IBU
10.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 9.4 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (30 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (10 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
5.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (2 min) Hops 0.8 IBU

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.059 SG (1.045-1.060 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.015 SG (1.010-1.015 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Color: 17.5 EBC (9.9-27.6 EBC) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 34.0 IBU (30.0-50.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 1.9 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.7 % (4.5-6.0 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 %
Actual Calories: 508 cal/l


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Julez said:


> Cool - just listen to the last episode, as John Palmer comes in and points out a serious error in their experimentation process (this is the interesting bit, about lipoxegenase). From about 8 minutes onwards in the podcast.



Interesting stuff. Might have to try a pinch of metabisulfate in the next mash.

Sorry, to answer your questions before, hot wort transfer is done with silicon tubing + gravity, into nochill, and then just poured straight into the fermenter to oxygenate. The taste does change over time, but I put that down to the actual taste of the beer changing with time - a perceived change in the bad flavours.


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## mfdes (29/4/08)

Just to clear it out: It is clear you do full-volume boils. Do you top up with water and if so do you use exclusively boiled water?
I tend to avoid plastic if I can. The only plastic that comes in contact with my brews is the racking vynil. I'm in the process of switching to silicone that I can boil to thoroughly sanitise.

MFS.


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## Inge (29/4/08)

mfdes said:


> Just to clear it out: It is clear you do full-volume boils. Do you top up with water and if so do you use exclusively boiled water?
> I tend to avoid plastic if I can. The only plastic that comes in contact with my brews is the racking vynil. I'm in the process of switching to silicone that I can boil to thoroughly sanitise.
> 
> MFS.



Nope, never top up. Wouldn't dare either, seeing as though we are on tank water


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## devo (29/4/08)

Inge said:


> Nope, never top up. Wouldn't dare either, seeing as though we are on tank water




Tank water aye! Tried checking that out as the possible culprit? Tanks have recently been found to be leaking plenty of metals etc into the water that the manufactures originally claimed they didn't!!!


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## Inge (29/4/08)

devo said:


> Tank water aye! Tried checking that out as the possible culprit? Tanks have recently been found to be leaking plenty of metals etc into the water that the manufactures originally claimed they didn't!!!



Ooh. Hello. Another thing to cross off the list.

Going to put a brew on this Saturday. Single malt, single hop EKG ESB. 

Changes to make:

1) Fermenter is going to be cleaned with pink neo, rinsed with a few litres of boiling water, rinsed with lots of cold water and finally sanitised with iodophor
2) All water going into the kettle will be scheme water from the service station down the road
3) Absolute minimal aeration on the hot side, might add a pinch metabisulfate to the strike water
4) Fermented with clean starter
5) Racking hose replaced

Eliminate all potential causes, if this doesn't work, I'm giving up


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## amita (29/4/08)

Inge said:


> Ooh. Hello. Another thing to cross off the list.
> 
> Going to put a brew on this Saturday. Single malt, single hop EKG ESB.
> 
> ...


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Roger that mate, I'll caustic the shit out everything too, in case it is an infection.


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## Darren (29/4/08)

Hey Inge,

Looking back it could be any number of problems. Your OG's are in the range requiring excellent yeast health. There is quite a bit of colour in the recipe you posted so some funky crystal could also cause an unusual flavour.

As for sanitation, don't skimp-out with the sanitiser. In particular, sanitise the bejeezus out of your no-chill cube and also your fermeters. Use 10-1000x recommended levels and rinse thoroughly.

Remove and clean your taps and around the rubber seals in your lids. If possible, buy some new transfer lines.

Good luck.

cheers

Darren


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Darren said:


> Hey Inge,
> 
> Looking back it could be any number of problems. Your OG's are in the range requiring excellent yeast health. There is quite a bit of colour in the recipe you posted so some funky crystal could also cause an unusual flavour.
> 
> ...



10x-100x  

Nochill, 3 fermenters and fermenter, kettle taps are being soaked in caustic. I don't use lids, glad wrap always worked well for me 

Would it be worth washing the inside of my ferm fridge with ethanol?


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## jonw (29/4/08)

Darren said:


> Use 10-1000x recommended levels and rinse thoroughly.



I recall reading somewhere that Iodophor becomes _less_ effective when used at higher concentrations.


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## microbe (29/4/08)

jonw said:


> I recall reading somewhere that Iodophor becomes _less_ effective when used at higher concentrations.


It certainly wouldn't be no-rinse anymore, would it?

Cheers,

microbe


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## lou (29/4/08)

my perspective on cleaning plastic fermentors 

once you have a bug in them they are basically not worth using again 

the plastic is porous and bugs can lurk in there whatever you throw at them. 

plastic fermentors are imho basically disposable items

you can try using them again but the risk just ain't worth the wasted ingredients.

unfortunately fermentors are way over priced so I have moved to plastic buckets and want to upgrade to glass

I have ditched a number of fermentors over the years and a new one has simply solved my infection problems on more than one occaision - and I have a vigourous sanitation regime. 

they are always good for storing grain and carrying water etc even when no longer good for fermenting


lou


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## Darren (29/4/08)

jonw said:


> I recall reading somewhere that Iodophor becomes _less_ effective when used at higher concentrations.




I doubt it Jon,

Thats like saying chlorine is less effective at higher concentrations. I have never seen a surgeon dilute betadine either.

cheers

Darren


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## pint of lager (29/4/08)

I remeber reading the same as Jon-w, that iodine in higher concentrations is less effective. It may be in one of Fix's books.

Darren, we are not talking about full strength stuff you tip around in an operating theatre. That takes lots of rinsing!


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## Darren (29/4/08)

Ethanol in high concentrations is less effective. I suspect that iodine in betadine is the same as in iodophor. (Iodophor also contains phosphoric acid which would add to the sanitising efficacy)

cheers

Darren


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Ok, several caustic burns later, everything is soaking. 

I'm still not convinced that it's an infection, but doesn't hurt to cover all bases. If it still lingers, I'll take your advice and ditch the fermenters.

Thanks for your help.


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## Stuster (29/4/08)

So the first beer you made that had this taste was a k+k. Did you boil all the water for that one? 

One more guess on the flavour. Could you describe it as solvent-like? Thinner? Would be helpful to have a good description of the flavour.

Overall, the best thing might be to take it to a local experienced brewer or judge who could give you some feedback on it.


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## Darren (29/4/08)

microbe said:


> It certainly wouldn't be no-rinse anymore, would it?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> microbe




Microbe,

No it wouldn't. The idea that you can effectively use a no rinse sanitiser is just plain silly. "Bugs" become resistant to all sanitisers (like antibiotics). If you use just enough to kill the weak ones, the strong ones will survive and come back to bite you on the butt.

I have always rinsed after sanitation. It takes a few minutes extra (and a boiled kettle) but is good insurance IMHO.


cheers

Darren


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Stuster said:


> So the first beer you made that had this taste was a k+k. Did you boil all the water for that one?
> 
> One more guess on the flavour. Could you describe it as solvent-like? Thinner? Would be helpful to have a good description of the flavour.
> 
> Overall, the best thing might be to take it to a local experienced brewer or judge who could give you some feedback on it.



Definitely not. It's hard for me to describe the flavour, but it's not a harsh paint stripper taste. Might do just that and head down the the LHBS, see what he can make of it.

Cheers for all the input guys!


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## amita (29/4/08)

Inge said:


> Definitely not. It's hard for me to describe the flavour, but it's not a harsh paint stripper taste. Might do just that and head down the the LHBS, see what he can make of it.
> 
> Cheers for all the input guys!



inge , I have a word document that could help you to indentify and describe different tastes and flavours, I will try to attach it, if it doesnt work, pm me with your email adress and I will send it,
good luck with it all,

cheers amita 

View attachment Flavors_In_Beer.doc


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## Dicko ACT (29/4/08)

Sorry to broaden your scope... BUT what are you drinking it from?

If it is from a keg it could be be an infected regulator, disconnect, o rings, line, tap... etc


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## Inge (29/4/08)

amita said:


> inge , I have a word document that could help you to indentify and describe different tastes and flavours, I will try to attach it, if it doesnt work, pm me with your email adress and I will send it,
> good luck with it all,
> 
> cheers amita



Of all of them, actually, solvent fits it closest.

Dicko, this is straight from the primary fermenter tap (!)


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## Darren (29/4/08)

Inge,

You need to wait at least a week before being too critical.

cheers

Darren


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## mickoz (29/4/08)

You guys every tried Star San? I use 1ml in 500ml of demineralised water in a spray bottle - this amount covers sanitising everything for one brew session and more.
Never had any problems with off flavours.

Mick


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## Trent (29/4/08)

Inge
For mine, it sounds like an infection, but I am often wrong, so dont take my word for it, and it sounds like you are fairly sure it isnt that. My only real input would be that you say the closest description for the taste is solvent, and that says to me that the ferment temp may have been too high? Nobody has asked that question yet, are you fermenting at 22C or higher, or using a heat belt and letting it run? I was going to suggest possible chlorophenol influence, but being on tankwater it is unlikely (unless you use some chlorine in the tank to kill bugs and stuff?).
Look at your pitching and ferment temp, and also tankwater, but if it is neither of them, then buggered if I know!
All the best
Trent


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## Inge (29/4/08)

Trent said:


> Inge
> For mine, it sounds like an infection, but I am often wrong, so dont take my word for it, and it sounds like you are fairly sure it isnt that. My only real input would be that you say the closest description for the taste is solvent, and that says to me that the ferment temp may have been too high? Nobody has asked that question yet, are you fermenting at 22C or higher, or using a heat belt and letting it run? I was going to suggest possible chlorophenol influence, but being on tankwater it is unlikely (unless you use some chlorine in the tank to kill bugs and stuff?).
> Look at your pitching and ferment temp, and also tankwater, but if it is neither of them, then buggered if I know!
> All the best
> Trent



No chlorine in the tank but you do pose a good question.

4-5 days is a bit quick for US 05 at 18 degrees, no? I ferment in a small temperature controlled fridge but we have been getting constant power outages due to roadworks around the suburb...

Would explain a lot. Vigourous fermentation in a switched off fridge = heat.


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## andreic (29/4/08)

Hi Inge,

I had an infection issue a couple of years ago and started my own thread of woe at the time... got lots of good advice and suggestions, PMs, and spoke to a few brewers on the phone. I have always been fairly thorough (anal) with sanitation so the thought that it was an infection didn't seem possible to me. Well... it was! From time to time you will see threads from experienced brewers getting infections - it happens! Could be some environmental issue (time of year, winds)... could be taps, fermenters, who knows?

From my experience here is my advice:
1. take some suspect beers to experienced brewers and/or your local home brew shop for a taste test. When I did this my lhbs said "definitely an infection". I had some other brewers confirm this as well.
2. Keep it simple until you have eliminated or located the problem. e.g. do a few K+K brews or fresh wort kit brews. Once OK, do a simple AG. Personally, I wouldn't be spending 4-6 hours on a brewday until the simple issues are eliminated.
3. If you're still having problems with the simple brews - buy new fermenters, taps, hoses.... move your brew and/or fermentation location... clean the crap out of your brew and fermenting areas... get some help!

For my problem I suspected environmental issues and/or fermenter. I bought a new fermenter and retired the suspect one. I then completely cleaned out the area in which I fermented beer (a storage area in which I used to keep surf boards, fishing gear, etc), then sprayed around a bleach solution, then did a few K+K brews before doing an AG one. I've since moved but its all good now (other than one brew I tipped out a few months ago - my no chill jerrycan leaked and sucked in air - the other half of the same batch was fine).

In the depths of my despair I really thought I had lost 7 brews in a row! It was really depressing. In the end, 4 of the suspect brews were fine... don't just keep brewing without help and a methodical approach to address the problem or you will soon become very discouraged.

Good luck!

Andrei


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## Inge (29/4/08)

andreic said:


> Hi Inge,
> 
> I had an infection issue a couple of years ago and started my own thread of woe at the time... got lots of good advice and suggestions, PMs, and spoke to a few brewers on the phone. I have always been fairly thorough (anal) with sanitation so the thought that it was an infection didn't seem possible to me. Well... it was! From time to time you will see threads from experienced brewers getting infections - it happens! Could be some environmental issue (time of year, winds)... could be taps, fermenters, who knows?
> 
> ...



All noted. I've cleaned out the brewing area, will probably put on a kit and kilo. If everything goes well, I'll do an AG.


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## brendanos (29/4/08)

Inge said:


> I don't use lids, glad wrap always worked well for me



...for any particular reason?


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## Inge (29/4/08)

brendanos said:


> ...for any particular reason?



Pretty yeasties.

That and the taller fermenters don't fit in the fridge with an airlock fitted :lol:


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## brendanos (30/4/08)

It scares me when people ditch their lids for glad wrap - but maybe I'm just paranoid. How long do you leave your beer before bottling? And are the fermenters always in the fridge at a constant temp (excusing the last brew and the power outages) until you bottle?


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## pint of lager (30/4/08)

Inge, the beers that you have found suspect, are they all partials and ag's? Are these the first ag and partials you have done? Or have you done other partials and ag's and they have been fine? Just thinking that it may possibly be a problem with your grain technique. Are you oversparging? Squeezing the grain? Adding acid to drop pH? Using lots of minerals to adjust water profile? Sparge water too hot?

Grain dust is notorious for causing infections. If any of your brew area has grain dust, this may be the culprit.

No chill is also an area that will cause problems unless you are really solid on sanitation and technique. Have you no chilled overnight and pitched the next day? This method means any no chill issues are less likely.


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## TasChris (30/4/08)

Couple of other sources of possible infection are;

Condensation pooling ontop of the glad wrap then leaking back into the fermenter through any holes in the glad wrap.

I realised during a moment of clarity that I was sanitising my fermenters etc then rinsing in cold water straight from the water tank thus undoing the sanitising. I have noticed that if I leave a water bottle with my tank water in it in the sun it turns green within 2 weeks.

I also switch between different sanitisers from time to time to try and prevent any immunity issues
Cheers
Chris


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## Inge (30/4/08)

brendanos said:


> It scares me when people ditch their lids for glad wrap - but maybe I'm just paranoid. How long do you leave your beer before bottling? And are the fermenters always in the fridge at a constant temp (excusing the last brew and the power outages) until you bottle?



AFAIK lots of people use glad wrap with no detrimental effects. I don't poke any holes in it, the CO2 has no problem escaping under the O-ring. 
My ferm schedule usually goes like this. 2 weeks primary @ 18, crash chill, 1 week secondary @ 4, rack to keg and cold condition. 

Pint of Lager, these were my first AGs so it may be a technique issue, but it doesn't explain the same flavour in the K+K. I am mindful of grain dust, and dough in around the corner away from the hosing and cube. I crack all my grain at the LHBS.

I don't think I am oversparging, I don't squeeze the grain. I do add a little gypsum to the mash, about a level teaspoon (we have very soft rainwater), but I haven't modified the pH of the mash. How would I go about doing this? Sparge water is around 80 degrees. Either way, I'll slap on a k + k on Saturday. Everything was in caustic overnight, and this time I'll be using a different fermenter, so hopefully if it's infection it will be gone.


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## Inge (13/5/08)

Fermentation has finished on a K + K. Coopers Australian Pale, with 1kg DME and Cascade hops. Everything has been soaked in caustic soda, fermenter lid replaced, new airlock, cleaned with pink neo, sanitised with peroxide and iodophor, just to be safe. New tap, everything went smoohtly, fementation took 8 days at 17-18 degrees. Regularly checked for condensation on the lid - not a drop. I've stuffed the freezer compartment with towels to prevent dripping. Tasted ok while fermenting.

Crash chilled, now it's got that taste again. 

It CAN'T be my gear.


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## Stuster (13/5/08)

Could still be your gear. Have you got anybody to give these beers a taste? Is it still in the original fermenter or did you rack it?


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## newguy (13/5/08)

What sort of yeast did you use for this and the other batches that went south? Your description of a plastic taste strongly suggests a wild yeast infection. If you can rule out the sanitation of your equipment, the next logical cause is the yeast.


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## mika (13/5/08)

PM me, I like weird tasting beer


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## Julez (13/5/08)

Has to be something airborne or the gear. Sounds like you have pretty much eliminated all process issues by repeating the problem with a K+K...

Either this, or the beer is fine and you have the bug :lol: 

Seems a few people have said the plastic fermenters can be unsalvagable once they get scuffed up and bugs nestle into the surface pits. Surely that is the last thing to do, swap for a glass fermenter?

I was thinking it had something to do with oxidation (which can occur from as low as 26 degrees C) or temp inaccuracies due to a possibly dodgy thermometer (e.g. sparge temps too high - should be no more than 76 degrees according to Palmer and others). I was also wondering if the no chill cube had a lot of headspace. Even though I know you were just chilling overnight then pitching, I worry about the time the wort is exposed to oxygen in the cube if there is excess head space. And DMS from the slow chill. But that's a whole new can of worms. Either way, your K+K would suggest none of this applies... :huh: 

I reckon a new glass fermenter is in order...


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## Julez (13/5/08)

or one of these http://www.better-bottle.com/


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## rh1an5 (13/5/08)

glad wrap, i can see that working, the girlfriends grandpa told me he uses a towl, no lid , a towl, ferments for 3-4 days and then botttles, i can imagine soem strange tastes out of that


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## paul (13/5/08)

When I was using a plastic fermenter I used glad wrap. I now use a glass saucepan lid. 

Dont some of the breweries do open fermentation with no lid at all?


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## Darren (13/5/08)

I would put the lid back on your fermenter if you are getting successive "bad" batches.

I would also buy a new fermenter.

cheers

Darren


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## andreic (13/5/08)

Inge said:


> Fermentation has finished on a K + K. Coopers Australian Pale, with 1kg DME and Cascade hops. Everything has been soaked in caustic soda, fermenter lid replaced, new airlock, cleaned with pink neo, sanitised with peroxide and iodophor, just to be safe. New tap, everything went smoohtly, fementation took 8 days at 17-18 degrees. Regularly checked for condensation on the lid - not a drop. I've stuffed the freezer compartment with towels to prevent dripping. Tasted ok while fermenting.
> 
> Crash chilled, now it's got that taste again.
> 
> It CAN'T be my gear.



It CAN'T be your AG brewing gear because you didn't use this... but it can still be your fermenting gear...

1. Get someone experienced to taste this beer!
2. Get a new fermenter!

You crash chilled the beer and got the taste again - how'd you do this? Did you crash chill in the fermenter by dropping the fermentation fridge temp? If so - probably chuck out your fermenter and buy a new one! If you transferred to another fermenter or cube to crash chill - maybe this is where it went wrong (but get a new fermenter anyway).

When I had problems almost 2 years ago - I cleaned the crap out of my brewing / transfer / bottling areas and retired my 2 fermenters, racking tubes, taps and started with fresh fermenting gear. I even started transferring beer from fermenter to bulk prime vessel in a different room. Perhaps the caustic and subsequent cleaning simply didn't get your fermenter clean of the bug, or something else happened - such as an environmental issue.

In any case - if you can, get some help! You want to try and minimise the number of failed brews and time it takes to get this right or you'll start to get very discouraged (if not already)...

cheers, Andrei


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## Inge (13/5/08)

The fermenter I used wasn't the same one as before - I decided to not take a chance and have retired that one to storage duties. Crash chilled in the fridge.
Perhaps it's me. The taste is there, nowhere near as noticeable as last time. Maybe I'm paranoid and tasting things that aren't there. Yeast was S-05.

Maybe it's acetaldehyde or something and I'm sensitive to it. 

I think I'm going nuts!

I'm going to let it rest for a few days and if there's no change I'll do the rounds and get a couple of opinions. Might take you up on the offer mika, seeing as though you are just round the corner.

E: Also, might set fire to the inside of the fermenting fridge, just to be safe.


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## matr (13/5/08)

Only a thought but reading through this it seems to me the common denominator is when you chill it??? (Correct me if I'm wrong)

You're obviously chilling it in a fridge / freezer???? Maybe it's something to do with that?? Maybe try not chilling?


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## Stuster (13/5/08)

Inge said:


> E: Also, might set fire to the inside of the fermenting fridge, just to be safe.



Definitely the best answer. :lol: 

Get a few opinions from experienced people. You're right, it might just be you.


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## mika (13/5/08)

mika said:


> PM me, I like weird tasting beer



No...seriously :lol: 
I'll come round and taste it if you want another take on it. If you bottle some I'll give it to another brewer to sample as well, presuming I don't drop dead from it.


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## pint of lager (13/5/08)

What is your source of water?

High chlorine levels can make funny flavours.

One of the club's brewers was having ongoing problems with infections. He is a successful and very careful kits and bits brewer. He cannot put his brew down in the kitchen, or it becomes infected. He has now moved his brewing to the laundry and hasn't had a problem since.


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## Pumpy (13/5/08)

Inge are you using the garden hose to fill your HLT ?
the heat from the sun will leach out the plasticisers from the PVC pipe and impart a plastic taste to your beer !!


pumpy


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## amita (13/5/08)

Inge said:


> Yeast was S-05.
> 
> Hi Inge,
> Pistol Patch has a whole thing about this yeast!!sounds like you might have to have achat with him,
> ...


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## Inge (13/5/08)

Water is rainwater from the tank, filled from the tap, so tehre isn't a skerrick of chlorine. 

Interesting point about the potential for airbourne infection, I suppose the kitchen is the best place for bacteria to harbour. Will keep it in mind.


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## pint of lager (13/5/08)

Aha! Rainwater. Now, how do you sanitise the rainwater?


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## Screwtop (13/5/08)

Inge, are you kegging or bottling??


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## MVZOOM (13/5/08)

I was gunning for a bad boiler until I read your latest K&K was the same as the rest. Was thinking that your boiler is leaching something into the wort, however you seem to have cancelled that out.

I'd just buy a new fermenter and see how that goes.

Cheers - Mike


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## Cocko (13/5/08)

pint of lager said:


> Aha! Rainwater. Now, how do you sanitise the rainwater?




Yep, rainwater, so pure and clean.. UNTILL it runs through your filthy gutters and sit in your non chlorinated tank!!

If you are not boiling it off - this is your problem... I reckon.

Cocko.


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## pint of lager (13/5/08)

Even rainwater before it hits your roof is loaded with small amounts of gunk. Dust, pollens, spores, jetfuel, bugs are all washed out of the air by rain. Then, add the bird crap, possum pooh and dead leaves and you have quite a nice mix.


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## Inge (13/5/08)

Cocko said:


> Yep, rainwater, so pure and clean.. UNTILL it runs through your filthy gutters and sit in your non chlorinated tank!!
> 
> If you are not boiling it off - this is your problem... I reckon.
> 
> Cocko.



Rainwater is always boiled, I 'no-chilled' the water for use the next day. Water tasted just as good coming out of the cube, so it's not that. 

I am kegging currently.

The wort for the latest K + K is still in the primary fermentation vessel.


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## dr K (13/5/08)

Well...yes thats correct about rainwater, but you see, the problem started with AG brews, which presumably are thoroughly boiled (and given that sanitaion is a function of time and temperature, even a simmer for 60 minutes will knock out most of the nasties).
I recently tasted a number of beers, in PET bottles that were all brewed using tank water and were all well made, well balanced and not infected.
It is very difficult to tell without tasting the beer, and even then its not a cake-walk..unless the problem is immediately obvious, I have put my thinking goggles on though...if I can make some suggestion later this evening I will...I just need to read this thread again....

K


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## Guest Lurker (13/5/08)

Like Mika suggests, you have got to the point where someone else needs to taste it and help confirm there is a taste there and what it is. I am down the road a bit in Bayswater if you want to drop some beer off. Mrs GL is now quite used to blokes turning up on the doorstep with dubious murky samples freshly drawn from fermenters. Failing that take it to a West Coast Brewers meeting.


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## dr K (13/5/08)

Inge
Your last one tasted fine from the fermentor (18C??) but the taste was there after chilling to (OC??).
I guess you have racked it off the yeast/trub so how does it taste if you warm to 18C again??


K


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## dr K (13/5/08)

> I am kegging currently.



Have you given your keg system as big a kill-kill as everything else. Chances are that you did have an infection (as oppossed to an environmental transient such as leaching plasticizers) in a batch that has got stuck in your kegs (prob in the poppets). Strip it down as much you can, the rubbery/neoprene or whatever bits you cannot replace boil the shirts off, boil the poppets, the lids and such, give them a decent hit with beerstone remover, polish the insides then caustic them at 5%....etc....
Replace your beer lines, pump a few kegs at 5% through the taps....anything else as wild and crazy as you can imagine...oh and don't forget to rinse !!!

K


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## andreic (13/5/08)

You know what? It might just be you now... :blink: 

Once you get that bad infected taste for a few brews... you taste it everywhere... you say its not as bad this time? Bottle or keg it... and see how it goes... it'll be pretty obvious to experienced brewers if its infected.


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## Screwtop (13/5/08)

Inge said:


> I am kegging currently.



Bingo! Tell me about your taps, how many what type.


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## Inge (13/5/08)

dr K said:


> Have you given your keg system as big a kill-kill as everything else. Chances are that you did have an infection (as oppossed to an environmental transient such as leaching plasticizers) in a batch that has got stuck in your kegs (prob in the poppets). Strip it down as much you can, the rubbery/neoprene or whatever bits you cannot replace boil the shirts off, boil the poppets, the lids and such, give them a decent hit with beerstone remover, polish the insides then caustic them at 5%....etc....
> Replace your beer lines, pump a few kegs at 5% through the taps....anything else as wild and crazy as you can imagine...oh and don't forget to rinse !!!
> 
> K



None of the bad brews have seen the inside of the keg. Even then, I've cleaned them with boiling caustic, and replaced seals.

I'm starting to think more and more it my\ight be my own paranoia haha


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## Inge (13/5/08)

dr K said:


> Inge
> Your last one tasted fine from the fermentor (18C??) but the taste was there after chilling to (OC??).
> I guess you have racked it off the yeast/trub so how does it taste if you warm to 18C again??
> 
> ...



Actually, I'm just in the process of doing this. It out warming up to ambient - will let you know.


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## Julez (14/5/08)

Inge said:


> Actually, I'm just in the process of doing this. It out warming up to ambient - will let you know.



I'm really interested to know how this goes too. Your scenario sounds so similar to mine, and I find the taste is more pronounced at lower temps, then dissipates when warmed again. What does this mean though...?


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## Darren (14/5/08)

Fermenting in a fridge with glad wrap as a lid could be your problem.

cheers

Darren


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## barneyhanway (14/5/08)

I agree, and even more so if you chill to pitching temp (from boiling) in a fridge with gladwrap for a lid.
Fridges are disgusting. Turn one off and leave it for a couple of weeks if you don't believe me.

As a function of cooling, air is being sucked into your fermenter. Air from your fridge. Read above.


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## Julez (14/5/08)

barneyhanway said:


> I agree, and even more so if you chill to pitching temp (from boiling) in a fridge with gladwrap for a lid.
> Fridges are disgusting. Turn one off and leave it for a couple of weeks if you don't believe me.
> 
> As a function of cooling, air is being sucked into your fermenter. Air from your fridge. Read above.



I think if you guys read Inge's last test report, he stated that he replaced the fermenter and the lid and airlock! So it's not to do with glad wrap!

Irrespective, that's a damn good point, I guess if you are chilling from boiling in a fridge even with a lid and airlock, it still sucks fridge air in at the worst possible time, as wort is going through danger zone with temp. Unless you seal up the airlock hole or plug the airlock with some alcohol-soaked cotton-wool, etc....

Given the problem was still present with Inge's latest K+K though, I assume this is irrelevant anyway.


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## Jez (14/5/08)

Clean all your fridges - both your fermenting fridge & your keg fridge.

I had a horrible taste problem which sounds pretty close to yours with everything I kegged - tasted fine whilst fermenting in the fermentation fridge then developed the same green apple, acetaldehyde (sp?) taste once kegged and in my keg fridge.

I did heaps of research about acetaldehyde "green apple" infections, lactic acid infections & changed my practice - was carefully that I milled my grain far away from where I brewed, let my beers ferment for a little longer, made sure I racked them to get them off the yeast cake etc. Nothing helped. Everything I kegged had the same green apple taste.

It happened about the same time I started AG brewing too so I was close to giving up. Then at my wits end one day I pulled my whole keg system out of the fridge it was in (pulled the taps off the front & blocked the holes, took out the gas manifold & all the lines) & used it as a fermentation fridge for one brew to see what happened. Got the same infected taste from that fermenter whist it was fermenting.

I gave the fridge a MAJOR domestos clean & fermented another beer in there recently, bottled it 8 weeks ago and so far it tastes ok.

I haven't put the keg system back together yet but have bought reseal kits for all kegs, new lines and have pulled the taps apart for a napisan soak. Hopefully will be all good.

Good luck!

Jez


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## Inge (14/5/08)

Jules mate, you're spot on. Warmed it up to 18 degrees and I can't notice the bad flavour at all, hop and a touch of malt sweetness is all. Not too bad! Chilled back down to 10 degrees, and the same result. Seems as though the taste is only noticeable at very low temps, where malt and hop flavour is diminished. It's in the process of cooling to serving temperature, 6 degrees. This differs from the last 'bad' batch, where the taste was prominent plastic throughout the temperature range 18 through to 6. 

Regardless, the fridge is getting a spraydown with peroxide. Need to cover all bases here.

Best case scenario, I'm tasting is normal acetaldehyde from a young beer, and a paranoid mind has warped the senses. Home brewers are a mad lot anyway. :lol: Worst case, it's a flaw only perceivable at super low temperature. I'm pressing ahead with this beer, it's going into the keg after a stint in secondary. I'll note any changes in flavour every couple of days until it's ready to drink. 

Thanks for all your help guys!


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