# Step Mash Vs Single Infusion



## Crusty (22/2/12)

I am just curious wether to do a 3 or 4 step mash on my next APA or stick with the usual, simple single infusion.
Is there any advantage in stepping the mash for this beer?
I have full temp control with the PID & Rims so no hassle to programme it all in.
If it will make a difference to the final product, I'm willing to give it a go.
Great results with single infusion so maybe not worth it for this beer.
( step temps / times, etc. )


----------



## alfadog (22/2/12)

Crusty said:


> I am just curious wether to do a 3 or 4 step mash on my next APA or stick with the usual, simple single infusion.
> Is there any advantage in stepping the mash for this beer?
> I have full temp control with the PID & Rims so no hassle to programme it all in.
> If it will make a difference to the final product, I'm willing to give it a go.
> ...



I think the step mash is from the days of old where the malting process was not so good, If there are not too many adjuncts, like corn or wheat, and your beer is hop driven then I would not bother myself. It may increase efficiency a touch but I have not really looked into this angle.

my 2c


----------



## manticle (22/2/12)

Step mashing is great and has results that go beyond just whether malt is modified or not.

However APA is one of the few beers I'm still pretty much single infusion for.

Try it in a beer that has less going on (and is maybe more the kind of style you'd expect it in) then see if you reckon translating to apa or aipa is worth it.

If you like belgian beers, try a multi step in one of those and see what you think.


----------



## Deebo (22/2/12)

Try a decoction just for the hell of it.


----------



## Thefatdoghead (22/2/12)

Hey Crusty this is my mash schedule for a Imperial IPA I just made. 


EMP: 53/66/72/78
TIME: 5/70/10/10 

Not the same style but i'll let you know how it goes. To be honest iv'e only tried single infusion on 1 beer since I got the Braumeister, it was Ross's nelson summer ale and it turned out great mouthfeel wise and very lovely fruity aroma. One of the better beers iv'e made so next time i'll step mash it and see what happens. Interested to hear your results if you do a step mash. 
Great to hear your brewing again mate!
Gav


----------



## Tony (22/2/12)

Modern malting processes just ensure a faster and more complete conversion. It doesnt change the fact that you can control the profile of the beer by mashing at different temps.

Enzymes still do the same stuff they did way back when.........

APA is not a beer that really needs a complex mash program but a short 10 min protein rest at 52 to 55, a coolish mash at 64 to 66 and a high mash rest for 10 to 15 min in the low 70's will give you a very good beer. 

The step mash helps ensure you get complete conversion, can help get better efficiency and attenuation and can reduce chill haze.

I have not single infused im many years and would not go back.

cheers


----------



## Crusty (23/2/12)

Deebo said:


> Try a decoction just for the hell of it.



No thanks.





Gav80 said:


> Hey Crusty this is my mash schedule for a Imperial IPA I just made.
> 
> 
> EMP: 53/66/72/78
> ...



Thanks Gav.
Will probably be doing a brew on the weekend on the new Rims setup.
Have been playing around with the PID, step programming, ramping temps etc. Pretty quick ramp times with the Rims tube, very happy with it.
I'll let you know how it compares to the single infusion I used previously.




Tony said:


> Modern malting processes just ensure a faster and more complete conversion. It doesnt change the fact that you can control the profile of the beer by mashing at different temps.
> 
> Enzymes still do the same stuff they did way back when.........
> 
> ...



Thanks Tony.
I think I will step mash this one. I know it's not essential for an APA but it will be good to compare the final results. My simple single infusions have been awesome on the old rig but now that I have the ability to control the process more precisely, I am keen to make use of the PID's capabilities. I will probably gain some extra efficiency points as well so why not?
Cheers mate.


----------



## mckenry (23/2/12)

On a side note - not completely off topic.

I like to step mash. Was easy with Beersmith.
Now I use Brewmate as Beersmith has buggered up for me. Cant see ingredients window when opening recipe. Read all the help about deleting a certain file etc, but it still aint workin...
So when BS2 came out and I had to pay again, I thought stuff it and went with Brewmate.

Brewmate doesnt allow step mash as far as I can see? Nor does it allow for sparging in two (or more) lots either? I have read plenty of Brewmate threads btw. Maybe not enough?

Dont want to derail thread, so any yes/no answers would be good.


----------



## Crusty (23/2/12)

mckenry said:


> On a side note - not completely off topic.
> 
> I like to step mash. Was easy with Beersmith.
> Now I use Brewmate as Beersmith has buggered up for me. Cant see ingredients window when opening recipe. Read all the help about deleting a certain file etc, but it still aint workin...
> ...



I have BS2 & Beer Tools Pro.
I use BTP exclusively now, awesome programme.


----------



## Nick JD (23/2/12)

I find that the key difference step mashing (and slightly moreso decoction mashing) from a single sacc rest is resting it at both sweet spots for the amylases and the subsequent affect on attenuation while retaining body and mouthfeel.

Resting at 62C and then 72C creates a wort quite different to one rested at 66C only. Especially in big beers that tend to have underattenuation issues. 

The rests down low can be skipped with out much change (40s and 50s).


----------



## Crusty (23/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> I find that the key difference step mashing (and slightly moreso decoction mashing) from a single sacc rest is resting it at both sweet spots for the amylases and the subsequent affect on attenuation while retaining body and mouthfeel.
> 
> Resting at 62C and then 72C creates a wort quite different to one rested at 66C only. Especially in big beers that tend to have underattenuation issues.
> 
> The rests down low can be skipped with out much change (40s and 50s).



Creating a different beer at those step temps!
Do you find it better than a simple single infusion @66deg?
What times do you do those temps at?
I'm pretty keen to do a bit of experimenting.


----------



## matho (23/2/12)

hey crusty, 

do a step mash because can :beerbang: 

cheers


----------



## Malted (23/2/12)

There is some discussion of different beers from different mashing schedules to be found here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry873740


----------



## zebba (23/2/12)

I always mash in at 55 for 10. I feel it is easier to get rid of dough balls with a thicker mash, and I believe the final product has a tighter head.

I freely accept that these perceptions may be all in my head.


----------



## Nick JD (23/2/12)

Crusty said:


> Creating a different beer at those step temps!
> Do you find it better than a simple single infusion @66deg?
> What times do you do those temps at?
> I'm pretty keen to do a bit of experimenting.



Probably best to give this a read as I'll be regurgitating it anyway. Principles are similar whether you infuse or add heat. Focus on the Hochkurz "high-short" stuff. You get a highly fermentable wort with lots of dextrins. From a commercial pov that's important.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing


----------



## Crusty (23/2/12)

matho said:


> hey crusty,
> 
> do a step mash because can :beerbang:
> 
> cheers



Too right. This temp control thing is pretty exciting. Lovin it so far & that's just with water. :beerbang: 




Malted said:


> There is some discussion of different beers from different mashing schedules to be found here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry873740



Cheers mate,
Will look through that.




Zebba said:


> I always mash in at 55 for 10. I feel it is easier to get rid of dough balls with a thicker mash, and I believe the final product has a tighter head.
> 
> I freely accept that these perceptions may be all in my head.



Thanks mate.
I am looking at a thinner mash, 3.75l/kg due to the Rims setup. I want to avoid a stuck mash at all costs.




Nick JD said:


> Probably best to give this a read as I'll be regurgitating it anyway. Principles are similar whether you infuse or add heat. Focus on the Hochkurz "high-short" stuff. You get a highly fermentable wort with lots of dextrins. From a commercial pov that's important.
> 
> http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing



Cheers JD.
Will look through that as well.

Thanks guys.


----------



## manticle (23/2/12)

If you're keen try it out.

As I said, APA is one of the few beers I don't really do it for but that's because most of my step mashing regimes involve 2 steps in the 60s plus other steps outside on both ends. With APA, I pick one 60s rest but still go to 72 for glycoprotein and later mash out (so I guess that's a step mash).


Most European beers for me go

TEMP: 55/62-64/67-68/72/78
TIME: 5/10 -30/50-20/10/10

The ranges in the sacch rest region depend on the final profile - longer low rest for drier, longer high rest for malty. As Nick says - attenuative wort is to be had but you can balance that with the thicker, maltier mouthfeel of a beer mashed higher.


----------



## Crusty (24/2/12)

Thanks for the tips.
You guys don't stir the mash at all when step mashing do you?
Just put your times into the PID & let it go through the step schedule.


----------



## SJW (22/4/12)

sorry to fire up an old thread, but I came accross it while reseaching multi step v single infusion mashing.
One thing I also noticed since using the Braumeister is the tightness of the beer head. I have been doing a short rest at 55 then then raising the mash to 62 then 72 then 78. I recently went back to a single infusion type mash and my efficiency went way down.
So I say if you have a RIMS type system go the multi step....just because you can 

Steve


----------



## Adr_0 (2/6/13)

Old thread fired up again...

I've seen a bit about Hochkurz and variations, essentially spending 30-75min in the beta amylase range to maximise/govern fermentability, then a rest typically 68-72°C with the minimum time governed by starch conversion - 20-30min? - and held longer for more mouthfeel.

That's all fine.

But, trying this in Beersmith 2 seems to give particularly high FG's, right on the bottom end (or below) typical attenuation for the yeast. As an e.g. in Beersmith, a 62°(45min), 69°C(20min) + 76°C(10min) profile yields a FG of 1.013 (OG 1.048) with 34/70, yielding an expected attenuation of 73%, which is well below what one would expect with this yeast (high 70's, 80%), i.e. something 1.010 or even below.

What have people observed, do you ignore Beersmith for a while with these (Hochkurz) mashes, or am I doing something wrong?


----------



## manticle (2/6/13)

I don't use beersmith but my attenuation with a short mash at say 62 followed by a longer one at 68 gives very similar attenuation to one mashed at 65 for 60. If making a saison or similar where I want a dry finish, I extend the beta rest (usually might do a 10 min rest so bump that to 15 or 20). The highly attenuative yeast does te rest.

In short, attenuation is pretty much the same for me as when I was doing single infusion mashes only. might be a glitch in beersmith. Does the attenuation change if you extend the low rest ? (although 45 minutes is way over what I would recommend - probably very little starch left for alpha to work with).


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

Helpful thread. Another question though.

I'm just starting to look into step mashes with my BIAB rig. 

I lift the bag of grain off the bottom of the pot with my pully leaving 80% of the grain submerged and the rest just above the wort surface, fire up the gas burner to get to the next temp level, rest and repeat as needed. 

It's not hard to do this, but certainly not as stream lined as an electronic system.

Opinions, better techniques and suggestions re this ?


----------



## Logman (2/6/13)

Can you do a step mash without a RIMS or HERMS by adding water - say for example if you are adding 15 litres total...adding 8 gets you to 52, then you use the other 7 to get you to 66, then add some of the sparge water to get it to 72? Or, is it important that it's done with the same volume of water?


----------



## felten (2/6/13)

Adr_0 said:


> What have people observed, do you ignore Beersmith for a while with these (Hochkurz) mashes, or am I doing something wrong?


Ignore beersmith, like Manticle said, it appears to be a glitch when you enter multiple steps.

I would take their predicted FG with a grain of salt anyway.


----------



## JDW81 (2/6/13)

Logman said:


> Can you do a step mash without a RIMS or HERMS by adding water - say for example if you are adding 15 litres total...adding 8 gets you to 52, then you use the other 7 to get you to 66, then add some of the sparge water to get it to 72? Or, is it important that it's done with the same volume of water?


You can, and I do this from time-to-time. You generally need to start with a fairly thick mash though, so you're able to hit your temps using boiling water. I don't think volumes really matter, so long as you're able to hit your desired temps.


----------



## Logman (2/6/13)

JDW81 said:


> You can, and I do this from time-to-time. You generally need to start with a fairly thick mash though, so you're able to hit your temps using boiling water. I don't think volumes really matter, so long as you're able to hit your desired temps.


Great thanks, gonna try on my next brew :beerbang:


----------



## felten (2/6/13)

KingKong said:


> Helpful thread. Another question though.
> 
> I'm just starting to look into step mashes with my BIAB rig.
> 
> ...


No need to hoist the bag, as long as you stir the mash while you're applying heat. What did you want to streamline?


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

felten said:


> No need to hoist the bag, as long as you stir the mash while you're applying heat. What did you want to streamline?


Nothing I want to stream line, I enjoy the active participation in my brew day (for the moment). I guess I was more seeing how others did this for BIAB or if any one had problems with it being done this way. I'm not sure I would trust the swiss viole not to melt if I didn't hoist it up off the bottom of the pot.


----------



## Adr_0 (2/6/13)

manticle said:


> . Does the attenuation change if you extend the low rest (although 45 minutes is way over what I would recommend - probably very little starch left for alpha to work with).


Nah that's the thing, it's temperature-sensitive only. That's what originally had me scratching my head and starting to doubt the magical Beersmith fairies.



felten said:


> I would take their predicted FG with a grain of salt anyway.


Yes, very true. 

Awesome, thanks guys... makes me feel a bit more confident.


----------



## felten (2/6/13)

KingKong said:


> Nothing I want to stream line, I enjoy the active participation in my brew day (for the moment). I guess I was more seeing how others did this for BIAB or if any one had problems with it being done this way. I'm not sure I would trust the swiss viole not to melt if I didn't hoist it up off the bottom of the pot.


With an element I would be worried about melting the bag, but with a gas burner I think you'll be fine. As long as you keep stirring. It also keeps your mash temperature homogenous, so you can hit your step target dead on, and not worry about possibly overshooting.


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

felten said:


> With an element I would be worried about melting the bag, but with a gas burner I think you'll be fine. As long as you keep stirring. It also keeps your mash temperature homogenous, so you can hit your step target dead on, and not worry about possibly overshooting.


I just cant bring myself to chance my custom built bag, you would understand if you could see it , it's my best piece of kit !!! Maybe if I had a raised false bottom... that sounds the go. I completely agree with the mash temp staying homogeneous, though keeping the bag still submerged whilst hoisted I have found keeps the temp reading I take true for the mash.


----------



## Midnight Brew (2/6/13)

KingKong said:


> I just cant bring myself to chance my custom built bag, you would understand if you could see it , it's my best piece of kit !!! Maybe if I had a raised false bottom... that sounds the go. I completely agree with the mash temp staying homogeneous, though keeping the bag still submerged whilst hoisted I have found keeps the temp reading I take true for the mash.


It should be fine, I've got a custom Swiss volie bag and I just stir and stir. Usually raises by a degree a minute. Bags holding up awesome with no melting or burning issues.


----------



## QldKev (2/6/13)

Why not throw in a pump to move wort from the bottom to the top and a fake false floor to hold the bag up. Makes brewing a lot easier and then you can sit back with a beer and watch it.


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

QldKev said:


> Why not throw in a pump to move wort from the bottom to the top and a fake false floor to hold the bag up. Makes brewing a lot easier and then you can sit back with a beer and watch it.


BIAB 'Make 1' is still fresh and has the paint drying (as is the brewer) but when I start feeling I have pushed it to the limit , Ill get that itch back and be pursuing automation and re-circulation for sure.

Its doing everything I want it to at the moment and I kind of like having limited gear that can let me down.

Nothing I have found I can't do with it (such as step mashes to keep on topic) that others do with fancier systems.

Just takes a bit more effort and doesn't look half as cool.


----------



## pk.sax (2/6/13)

Re-circulating was the easiest and most hassle eliminating step I added to my brewing. It's just a pump with a couple of hoses sticking out and eliminates the need to stir and stir and stir. I had to make polenta last night and the recipe said to stir, in one direction, for a half hour. **** my life. Worked around it. My next setup is going to be a recirculated bag with a fb/cake rack to hold the bag up.


----------



## QldKev (2/6/13)

KingKong said:


> BIAB 'Make 1' is still fresh and has the paint drying (as is the brewer) but when I start feeling I have pushed it to the limit , Ill get that itch back and be pursuing automation and re-circulation for sure.
> 
> Its doing everything I want it to at the moment and I kind of like having limited gear that can let me down.
> 
> ...


My point was more from personal experience. I tried temperature steps when I had a straight BIAB setup / no pumps etc. It's more stuffing around than it needs to be. A simple pump and fake false floor is not hard to add, and it will stop issues with astringency cause by the wort getting too hot under the grain, and burning bags etc.


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

QldKev said:


> My point was more from personal experience. I tried temperature steps when I had a straight BIAB setup / no pumps etc. It's more stuffing around than it needs to be. A simple pump and fake false floor is not hard to add, and it will stop issues with astringency cause by the wort getting too hot under the grain, and burning bags etc.


Not saying it wouldn't be beneficial or that a non recirculating system is just as good as a recirculating system.

I am just satisfied with my very simple set up, as is, at the moment. Might shoot you both a PM when I look into it though.


----------



## GuyQLD (2/6/13)

I step mash using infusion with my BIAB setup. Gas is a bitch to get perfect temps even if you're stirring the shit out of it while ramping. I don't bother. A bit of maths and a 10L Aldi stock pot solve all the problems. 

I tried stepping with the gas burner. Boiling water is just easier to deal with.


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

Would you mind giving a demonstration of the maths?


----------



## GuyQLD (2/6/13)

The maths is in How to brew and a few other places. This is a simple Excel I use. There's also numerous online calculators. 

View attachment Multistep infusion.xlsx


----------



## KingKong (2/6/13)

Thanks.


----------



## AJ80 (2/6/13)

Similar question - can you use an OTS element to step mash/mash out in an esky mash tun? Does anyone do this?

I'm in the process of pulling together a 3v system and was thinking this could be a hassle free way to step mash/mash out (as opposed to infusing with extra water - just add the element and stir til hit desired temp). Seems like it would be possible as long as I kept the element moving around so I didn't scorch the grain...

Cheers,

AJ


----------



## Econwatson (2/6/13)

practicalfool said:


> Re-circulating was the easiest and most hassle eliminating step I added to my brewing. It's just a pump with a couple of hoses sticking out and eliminates the need to stir and stir and stir. I had to make polenta last night and the recipe said to stir, in one direction, for a half hour. **** my life. Worked around it. My next setup is going to be a recirculated bag with a fb/cake rack to hold the bag up.


What pump did you use mate? Would this work on a concealed element Crown urn just as well?


----------



## Bribie G (2/6/13)

AJ80 said:


> Similar question - can you use an OTS element to step mash/mash out in an esky mash tun? Does anyone do this?
> 
> I'm in the process of pulling together a 3v system and was thinking this could be a hassle free way to step mash/mash out (as opposed to infusing with extra water - just add the element and stir til hit desired temp). Seems like it would be possible as long as I kept the element moving around so I didn't scorch the grain...
> 
> ...


Yes.
I occasionally use an eski mash tun when I'm doing a piggy back double BIAB using urn and eski (don't ask, it's very very ugly :lol: ) and I do this with an OTS element.

Talking of BIAB, provided you have a trivet or cake rack to keep the bag off the element, step mashing in an urn by applying direct heat during the ramping of the temperature from step to step is almost trivial. Just ramp temp while pumping up and down with the paint stirrer or chosen tool then re-wrap the urn for the 40 minutes or whatever.


----------



## manticle (2/6/13)

AJ80 said:


> Similar question - can you use an OTS element to step mash/mash out in an esky mash tun? Does anyone do this?
> 
> I'm in the process of pulling together a 3v system and was thinking this could be a hassle free way to step mash/mash out (as opposed to infusing with extra water - just add the element and stir til hit desired temp). Seems like it would be possible as long as I kept the element moving around so I didn't scorch the grain...
> 
> ...


I use an OTS element in an esky mash tun to step mash - have done since I started stepping regularly.

Just need to keep the element moving constantly


----------



## JDW81 (2/6/13)

manticle said:


> I use an OTS element in an esky mash tun to step mash - have done since I started stepping regularly.
> 
> Just need to keep the element moving constantly


How long does it take you to get your temps up between rests?


----------



## manticle (2/6/13)

Depends a bit on the rests but in a 26 L esky, it's a few minutes between say 62 and 68. Less than most HERMS I've seen in action.

Have tried it in a much bigger tun and obviously it's much less efficient.


----------



## AJ80 (2/6/13)

Cheers for the responses - so much to bloody learn with this brewing caper! Really looking forward to brewing my first AG now...should be next weekend if things go to plan.


----------



## pk.sax (2/6/13)

Hi econ, I chanced on a march pump in eBay rated to 80C that I use for my recirc needs.
A brown pump or any other pump capable of 70-80C should be just fine. I'd be tempted by those green magnetic pumps coming from china land available through sponsors etc or the bulk buys too.


Econwatson said:


> What pump did you use mate? Would this work on a concealed element Crown urn just as well?


Should work just fine for the urn too, the way I had it was that bag or no bag, the element (in my case direct gas fire) heats the liquid between the fb and the vessel bottom and my pickup goes to the lowest point so he pump is picking up the hottest wort and circulating it back to the top. Kind of like a bastardised rims in the vessel.


----------



## Econwatson (9/6/13)

Sorry for the late reply, thanks very much for the response, definitely going to look into it


----------



## Lakey (31/8/13)

Reviving an old thread. I am wanting to do a step mash brew using my 25L esky mash tun, I am thinking of doing a mash schedule like 55℃/10 62℃/30. 67℃/15 71℃/10. 78℃/10. Using a step mash calculator I will have to mash in thick say 1.5L/kg 9L @ 65℃ approx then infuse with about 2.1L of boiling to get 1.85L/kg. To get to 67℃ infuse another 2.2L of boiling to 2.19L/kg then for 71℃ infuse 2.2L boiling to 2.55L/kg then infuse 5.7L of boiling for 3.5L/kg for 78℃ mash out. This brings a problem as the last step (mash out) will bring me over my mash tun capcity. Should I skip this step as boiling will stop any conversion still occurring or can I include the step but run off some wort to the kettle beforehand then infuse to mash out. 

EDIT- I should include that this mash schedule willbe for a saison using 6kg of grain, 5kg of bb galaxy, .5 kg of Munich, .5kg of Vienna in a 23L batch. Not sure what yeast yet, either belle saison or wyeast French saison.


----------



## mje1980 (31/8/13)

You don't need so many. You could quite easily get similar results with less. Search "hochkurz" and read up mate. I normally just do a low 60's, then a short low 70's, with very good results. You can add the 55 if you like. I never mash out either. Beers taste fine.


----------



## QldKev (31/8/13)

I would also drop the 67 step. It's sitting in the middle of targeting any specific amalyse. Try 55/5 62/30 72/25 77/5.


----------

