# New To Ahb



## rvpkash (25/8/11)

Hi guys, 

I've been lurking around this forum for a small while trying to research my second attempt at making cider.

The first time we did roughly this (it was a long time ago);

juiced many kg's of apples, two different varieties (not sure if we mixed in any sugar)

chucked in a campden tablet at the appropriate stage

used some champagne yeast from brewcraft

let it ferment until there were no bubbles left

bottled it with roughly a teaspoon of sugar in each bottle

after a few weeks bottled it tasted very yeasty and pretty gross

after many months it didnt taste yeasty but wasn't as bubbly and still tasted gross (but less so)

For my second attempt 

I'm probably going to use apple juice from aldi/costco/coles
some online store bought s04 yeast 
sugar in with the juice while its fermenting 

and then just bottle the same way


I got a few questions though - 

firstly is reconstituted apple juice ok? costco has some preservative free stuff at $7 for 9L 
I'll be getting a hydrometer this time around and bottling it before the bubbles stop as I read somewhere on AHB that letting it run through completely you end up with a very dry cider, which i guess we didnt like.

and what is a good reading i want to be aiming for? is ~1.05ish about right?
and how do i actually take out a sample of the cider to use the hydrometer with?

Thanks for your help in advance to all these nooby questions guys!


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## kevin_smevin (25/8/11)

rvpkash said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been lurking around this forum for a small while trying to research my second attempt at making cider.
> 
> ...




Reconstituted apple juice is fine for cider.

You have to let your cider completely ferment out. The gravity of the finished cider will probably be 1.000 which will mean it is very dry. Unfortunately when you are bottling, there is no way of having sweet naturally carbonated cider unless you sweeten with something that is unfermentable. Some people use lactose to give a bit of sweetness (you can add this at the beginning or end of fermentation). I'm not sure but you may be able to use an artificial sweetener? 
A SG of around 1.010-1.012 will give you a semi-sweet cider - dry enough to make you want more and sweet enough that it tastes nice

Good luck


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## Airgead (25/8/11)

Yep. If you bottle before fermentation stops you may well end up with glass grenades. Not much fun.

There are ways of doing a sweet cider but most of them are either unreliable (glass grenades), tricky or rely on things like kegging.

Let it ferment out dry then back sweeten. You need to be careful that the back sweetening doesn't re-srtart fermentation (glass grenades again) so use something unfermentable or as an alternative back sweeten in the glass. A spoon full of sugar in the glass as you pour (or a shot of apple juice) works a treat.

Or man up and learn to like dry cider...  

Cheers
Dave


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## rvpkash (25/8/11)

Airgead said:


> You need to be careful that the back sweetening doesn't re-srtart fermentation (glass grenades again) so use something unfermentable or as an alternative back sweeten in the glass.




to get sparkling cider i put the spoon of sugar into the bottle before capping it - doesn't that re-start the fermentation? 

I'll just man up and learn to like *real* cider and maybe mix it with some apple juice before i bottle it in the mean time, and maybe only half a teaspoon of sugar since there'll be sugars in the apple juice.


any other tips? I'm heading over to grain and grape in yarraville melbourne after lunch today to pick up some yeast + hydrometer

BUT

if i'm letting it ferment all the way out, do i really need the hydrometer?


thanks for all the help guys!


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## bignath (25/8/11)

rvpkash said:


> if i'm letting it ferment all the way out, do i really need the hydrometer?



Looking at this from another perspective, how do you know it's finished fermenting if you DON'T get a hyrdometer?


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## Airgead (25/8/11)

rvpkash said:


> to get sparkling cider i put the spoon of sugar into the bottle before capping it - doesn't that re-start the fermentation?
> 
> I'll just man up and learn to like *real* cider and maybe mix it with some apple juice before i bottle it in the mean time, and maybe only half a teaspoon of sugar since there'll be sugars in the apple juice.



Ok...

Yes. When you prime a bottle it does restart fermentation. What you are doing there is adding a small, controlled amount of simple sugars that the yeast will eat and produce your bottle carbonation. Generally its a small amount (1 teaspoon to a 750ml bottle or thereabouts). The priming sugar will be completely consumed and the finished cider will be as dry as it was when it went into the bottle only sparkling.

Back sweetening is a bit different. Rather than a small amount of sugar controlled to give a certain level of carbonation, you are adding more sugar to adjust the taste of the product. If this sweetening sugar is allowed to ferment, two things will happen - 1 your cider will end up dry again (and stringer than it was before) and 2 - if you are bottling, the amount of carbonation produced by the larger amount of sugar may cause bottles to explode.

If you want to back sweeten, you either need to use an unfermentable sugar (lactose), an artificial sweetener (bleaugh), or do your back sweetening after bottle carbonation - ie: add the sugar when you pour not when you bottle.

If you want to add apple juice to sweeten, the place to do it is in the glass when you pour rather than when you bottle. If you add it to the bottle it will ferment and you bottles might go foom. If you want to sweeten in the bottles you have to use something unfermentable.

You can keep the bottles cold to prevent fermentation but that will also prevent it developing any carbonation. And you have to make sure that all your bottles stay cold all the time.

Cheers
Dave


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## KudaPucat (25/8/11)

Please. 
Heed the above warnings. Exploding bottles can be quite dangerous. I've had ceiling lights broken by flying shards if glass bottles. Luckily, I've never been in the room. 
When bottling:
Make sure there is no fermentable sugar left
Or
Make sure all the yeast are dead. 

Downside to the former is a dry cidre, downside to the latter is you can't carbonate naturally (without some fancy tricks anyhow)

Good luck, stay safe, and research this well.


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## BestServedCold (27/8/11)

So does this mean that if I want to bottle a sweet sparkling cider I add

1 Teaspoon of sugar (dextrose) to prime the bottles for carbonation and

x amount of lactose (to taste I guess) for the sweetness?

Also I guess the best way to find out how much lactose to put in would be to take 750ml and add lactose until it tastes nice?


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## manticle (27/8/11)

rvpkash said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been lurking around this forum for a small while trying to research my second attempt at making cider.
> 
> ...



Cider can take a really long time to mellow, especially if you bottled early (1005 is probably early), fermented warm or used sulphites (campden).

Personally I avoid sulphites, ferment cool and longer, let the cider mellow once fermented, cold condition then bottle. Gets better with age but no gross flavour. Can you describe gross?

For sweeter cider I have used lactose which I add in at the beginning to allow flavour to integrate. Boil in a bit of water and let cool, then add. It's unfermentable but not amazingly sweet. I would use 500g in a 20-ish L batch.

Also if using whole apples, crushed and juiced, you can let the whole lot sit overnight (or longer) till a cap forms (crusty foamy shit) then rack from underneath (transfer to a new clean vessel) then add yeast. This removes impurites and helps clarify the cider.

There is a risk of wild yeast taking over, but in my experience its overstated (hence I don't see the need for sulphites unless selling commercially and even then....). To combat the possibility though, I make an active starter with my preferred yeast and some fresh juice while the clarification is occurring.

Using supermarket juice, I have found that blending as many types of quality, preservative free juices as you can/want to/will afford, will give a more interesting, complex cider than just using one type of cheap juice.

You can look at bottle pasteurising for sweeter cider - homebrewtalk has an article on it somewhere. Personally the idea freaks me out a bit and I don't mind dry cider but make up your own mind. People report success in doing it.


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## Airgead (27/8/11)

BestServedCold said:


> So does this mean that if I want to bottle a sweet sparkling cider I add
> 
> 1 Teaspoon of sugar (dextrose) to prime the bottles for carbonation and
> 
> ...



Yep. That's it.

Remember that lactose isn't all that sweet so you will probably need to add more than you think.

Cheers
Dave


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## rvpkash (27/8/11)

manticle said:


> especially if you bottled early (1005 is probably early),




what would be the right time to bottle?

I'll be starting the the process tomorrow 

one last question that I have

when taking a sample to check the SG, I have to draw out the wort by syphoning it out right? i.e not opening up the whole barrel?

Last time we just assumed it was ready because there were no more bubbles coming through the air lock



This is an awesome community btw, once I get the process down im looking forward to trying different recipes and techniques on here!


when it comes to bottling i might make half dry cider and back sweeten the other half and see how it goes.


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## manticle (27/8/11)

The right time is when fermentation has finished. With most ciders allowed to naturally complete fermentation that would be around 1.000 and sometimes even lower. 

Leaving the brew on the yeast for a week or so after fermentation has finished helps condition and mature the cider and some cold conditioning (whole fermenter in fridge) for a week or more following that aids clearing and maturing.


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## rvpkash (12/9/11)

ok guys, its been about 3-4 weeks and im pretty sure im close to bottling but there are a few things stopping me.

When i try and take an SG reading, the cider itself is fizzy so the hydrometer gets bubbles on it and i can't get an accurate reading but the bubble rate is very very slow, a bubble every 1.5 minutes if that.

Also, the cider is quite fizzy/carbonated, which i'm not sure why and is making me hesitant to bottle and prime them like i normally would.

any tips?


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## Spork (12/9/11)

Take your sample, wait for it to "settle", then spin the hydrometer to remove any bubbles clinging to it and take your reading before more bubbles form. There is no hurry, take your sample, have a drink, then test (after de-bubbling hydrometer). You don't put the sample back into the fermenter (many / most here would suggest tasting it), so take your time.


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## rvpkash (12/9/11)

Thanks Spork, 

I did so, its about 1.002 - 1.004 so seems pretty close to being done, but should i prime them before i bottle them? it seems quite fizzy already


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## felten (12/9/11)

You can shake the shit out of the sample, or pour it between 2 containers to knock the co2 out as well.


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## KudaPucat (13/9/11)

You'll find racking a carbonated drink hard, as the co2 will release in the racking cane and break the siphon. Degas by shaking/swirling with the airlock in place.


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## manticle (13/9/11)

Leave it for longer. It may still get to 1000 or even lower and the maturation time will help even if it is finished.


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## rvpkash (14/9/11)

Thanks for the tips guys, i'll leave it for another week or two and check again then.


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## KudaPucat (15/9/11)

rvpkash said:


> Thanks for the tips guys, i'll leave it for another week or two and check again then.



It should only get lower than 1.000 if the ABV is higher than 5% and the brew is completely dry (ie no non-fermentables) But it can happen, My meads regularly finish at 0.994


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## rvpkash (15/9/11)

KudaPucat said:


> It should only get lower than 1.000 if the ABV is higher than 5% and the brew is completely dry (ie no non-fermentables) But it can happen, My meads regularly finish at 0.994




yeah not sure if i'll get lower than 1, but i'll probably just bottle next week


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