# Stainless Conicals



## Wortgames (27/10/05)

Hi everyone, just thought I'd post a quick update on these conicals. We are hoping to have the first prototype built within a week or so, and all details are still subject to change.

Basically the first model will be about 300mm in diameter and a bit less than 600mm tall without legs. The capacity will be about 28L to the brim, which gives you a 20% headspace on a 23L batch and 10% headspace on a 25.5L batch.

The lid is likely to be a 6mm polycarbonate disc with a silicone seal around the edge, which attaches with a stainless steel lever-lock ring.

The fermenter is constructed from 1.6mm 316 stainless (better than 304 due to improved resistance to caustic cleaners. Both are food grade). It will terminate in a 1.5" triclover ferrule at the bottom, and at this stage they will be supplied without a side port option, although we hope to have some good options for that by the time we are shipping them.

The prices are still yet to be confirmed and there are lots of variables, but the fermenter and lid arrangement (no tap or legs) will probably come in under $300. Not sure yet whether this will be for a 'raw' one or fully polished.

It looks like we've been able to get some good pricing on sanitary valves and fittings, and we will probably offer 5 bottom valve options:

Valve option 1: The cheapest option is to provide you with a threaded spigot that will clamp on, which can then accept any BSP threaded valve (eg $8 in Bunnings). This spigot will probably cost around $20.

Valve option 2: For around $100 we can offer a threadless, stainless 1" sanitary ball valve, with full teflon seals and fully dismantleable, which will clamp straight onto the fermenter. The outlet of this will accept 1" PVC tubing. They are very tight fitting seals and unlikely to harbour gunk, so dismantling the valve should only be required occasionally (certainly not every brew).

Valve option 3: For around $170 you can get a 1.5" version of the sanitary ball valve. This will also clamp directly to the fermenter but offers the largest throat of all the options (possibly too large). It will also need larger outlet tubing.

Valve option 4: For the same $170 (approx) you can get a 1" butterfly valve. These are a thing of awesome stainlessy beauty (I have a couple here) and they have no cavity for bugs to lurk. They are also fully dismantleable for seal replacement - you shouldn't need to dismantle them for cleaning, just flush. However, if you regularly have solids in your fermenter, the fact that the butterfly sits mid-stream may lead to occasional blockages.

Valve option 5: For about $180, you can get a 1.5" butterfly valve. This will certainly handle hop detritus much better than the 1", but again requires fairly large diameter tubing on the outlet side.

A fully optioned, gleaming fermenter with legs will hopefully come in between $600 - $700, and a basic raw vessel, ready for you to finish will hopefully be under $300.

I'll be offering a discount in the region of 10% to AHB folks who order and pay before Christmas (assuming things go well with the prototype!), as the early customers will obviously help us get it off the ground. We'd like to retail these through homebrew shops so we won't be discounting once we've set prices. They will be far better and far cheaper than anything else available. The build quality will be superb and we intend to back these things up with a lengthy warranty.

When I have a prototype and some piccies and better prices I'll let you know the details. Obviously we'd like to make a quid out of these for all the folks involved, and hopefully the customer will still get a great Aussie-built bargain. However, if the mods have an issue with this becoming commercial please let me know and we can take it offline.

Anybody drooling yet?

:beer:


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## nonicman (27/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> Anybody drooling yet?
> 
> :beer:
> [post="86086"][/post]​


Yes


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## Doc (27/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> Anybody drooling yet?
> 
> :beer:
> [post="86086"][/post]​



Yep (where's the drooling smilie ?)
Xmas present wish list still on hold 

Really looking forward to the next update and photos now.

Doc


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## roach (27/10/05)

drooling - you betcha


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## GMK (27/10/05)

Fantastic News...
Really Looking Forward to the PICS....


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## PhilS (27/10/05)

I'm excited!


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## jgriffin (27/10/05)

You got it kenny, pics please!
Guess i'll have to start dropping hints to the missus. 

The size sounds great too - will fit in the fermentation fridge no worries. In fact, are you planning a larger one? I ask as i want to move to double batches for lagers, as i only have a single fridge, and if it takes 5 weeks to brew and lager the damn thing, i don't want to finish it in a week.


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## Green Iguana (27/10/05)

When can we order my good fellow...

Cheers


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## Wortgames (27/10/05)

Hi guys, larger sizes are on the drawing board for next year.

As they get larger in diameter we plan to offer custom heights - so if you want a wide, squat single batch one to fit a particular space we can do it. You could also go for a tall, thin one, but according to Fix you don't want the cylindrical part of the height to be too much taller than the diameter, otherwise you get poor circulation of both yeast and temperature (unless you circulate or agitate it mechanically). Having said that I'm tempted to go for 2 taller ones myself to fit side-by-side in my glass-doored commercial fridge...
:super: 

Note that the 60cm height I mentioned doesn't include the valve, you'll need to add 10-20cm or so, plus room for the airlock above, so we're definitely talking about a standard upright fridge here. The legs will be individually adjustable though, so you'll be able to sit the rear leg(s) on the compressor hump in most fridges.

The lid will probably be made available with a central pilot hole, or undrilled (in case you want to mount the airlock off-centre). You can come up with your own arrangement for pressure transfer, but probably the easiest way would be to wedge a bit of plastic tube in the airlock hole connected to your regulator [legal disclaimer here!].

As for ordering, I won't have a firmer grip on prices until we have built a couple and know for a fact exactly how much is involved at each stage. We have also been very fortunate in being able to access some very elaborate fabrication facilities at a great rate, but we're yet to see how sustainable that is and what plan B would entail.

I'm really keen to be able to deliver some before Christmas, and fingers crossed that will be the case, but I don't want to let anybody down so it's still a bit premature to take any money.

I'll report back in a week or two how the prototype goes, I'll hopefully have some photos and firmer prices by then.

:beer:


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## Doc (27/10/05)

I'll put my hand up to do some R&D on the implementation side of the units. ie. Capacity testing, pressure testing, stress testing, fermentation testing .....

Doc


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## Wortgames (27/10/05)

Thanks Doc, for volunteering to explode your fermenter for the common good  

I think we will have to say that they are definitely NOT pressure vessels, but we will probably sacrifice one in a mythbusters-style ceremony to see what does happen when you go over the line, and where that line is...


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## jgriffin (27/10/05)

What a great guy you are Doc to put yourself out like that for us fellow brewers


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## Doc (27/10/05)

You need someone to help with writing the WARNING section of the manual and the Specifications/Operating Limits section 

Doc


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## Darren (27/10/05)

I would certainly be interested in a bigger one (70 or so litres). I presume the price would be similar?
cheers
Darren


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## kirem (27/10/05)

I am interested....


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## Wortgames (27/10/05)

It's really difficult to say what the price will be for the larger ones until we get there, but at a rough guess I'd say a 70 litre one would be twice the price of the 28 litre. Obviously there is more material involved, more welding, and larger parts which we'd be buying in smaller quantities. A lot of the fittings would transfer over though.


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## tangent (27/10/05)

i got a b-day AND festivus to come!


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## big d (27/10/05)

im drooling also and hanging out for the pics wortgames.


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## Linz (27/10/05)

The wonder of the modern world has struck again!!

Spun round and told the missus the cost....and got the OK!!

SO I'M IN FOR ONE!!!!

As big Kev says " I'M EXCITED! "


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## Batz (28/10/05)

Were these going to have a cooling option?

Batz


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## Wortgames (28/10/05)

Hi Batz, ultimately we want to offer those options but it won't happen for a while unfortunately.

I was thinking along the lines of a stainless coil welded to the outside. We might consider the jacket arrangement but I suspect that to do this properly would put the price right up there so we'll see what the interest is once we have the basic model going.

A stainless coil should be fairly straightforward, and we could also include the cone section without too much trouble. Provided the exterior of the fermenter was well insulated I reckon it would work well.


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## Darren (28/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> Hey Batz, ultimately we want to have those options available but it won't happen for a while unfortunately.
> 
> I was thinking along the lines of a stainless coil welded to the outside. We might consider the jacket arrangement but I suspect that to do this properly would be put the price right up there so we'll see what the interest is once we have the basic model going.
> 
> ...




I woould want cooling. I doubt I would be able to lift a 70 litre stainless + beer


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## mikem108 (28/10/05)

Droooooooooooooooool......... and slober


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## Batz (28/10/05)

Darren said:


> Wortgames said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Batz, ultimately we want to have those options available but it won't happen for a while unfortunately.
> ...




Me too Darren,
Otherwise it would be use to me only a couple of months a year.
I think the coil mounted inside like a immersion chiller would be better . Sanitizing should not be any more difficult .
I suppose I could fit that myself.



Batz


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## Guest Lurker (28/10/05)

If I had one of these babies it would be on show, probably in the middle of my lounge room, not hidden in a fridge, hence would be waiting for the cooled version.


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## devo (28/10/05)

enuff talk, more pic's. :angry:


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## SteveSA (28/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> I think we will have to say that they are definitely NOT pressure vessels, but we will probably sacrifice one in a mythbusters-style ceremony to see what does happen when you go over the line, and where that line is...
> [post="86135"][/post]​


That would make for a good bonus DVD


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## tangent (28/10/05)

i like the idea of maybe an after market cooling/heating jacket and I just pump whatever heated or cooled liquid I need with my own pump/controller etc.

If we break this down into a basic model, then buy accessories later, it'll be easier to get past our Directors of Finance and Enjoyment!


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## Wortgames (28/10/05)

OK, here are some pics to appease the piccy monsters  

First the ball valve:







Then the butterfly valve:






These are both the 'smaller' 1" version. They are absolutely the best available, top quality seals etc. We'll be welding triclover type flanges directly to them, so they will simply clamp to the fermenter.

We can weld a fitting to both ends of the valve if you like, if you want to use triclover fittings on your hoses as well. We will be able to offer triclover ferrules with hose barbs, so you could interconnect your whole brewery with triclover.




tangent said:


> If we break this down into a basic model, then buy accessories later, it'll be easier to get past our Directors of Finance and Enjoyment!
> [post="86273"][/post]​



That's the plan - these are not particularly cheap things but hopefully we can customise them as time and money (and ministers) permit.


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## tangent (28/10/05)

Sexy!


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## Linz (28/10/05)

Mine will be going here.....


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## jgriffin (28/10/05)

Can't wait to see some pics.

And if my missus asks anyone during the next brew day, they cost only $100 ok!


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## Ross (28/10/05)

jgriffin said:


> Can't wait to see some pics.
> 
> And if my missus asks anyone during the next brew day, they cost only $100 ok!
> [post="86521"][/post]​



ABSOLUTELY - I'd be dead if my missus got a sniff at what I spend... 

she asked how much the taps cost me - "Bargin" I said "only $50 compared to $70 buying here"...forgot to mention x 10 LOL...


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## Doc (28/10/05)

Ross said:


> jgriffin said:
> 
> 
> > Can't wait to see some pics.
> ...



Better not let her read this forum then Ross, especially the post you made tonight on Ventmatic taps 

Doc


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## Ross (28/10/05)

Safe as Doc


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## Ross (28/10/05)

Doc,

Picking up the Glycol unit & the driptray on Monday - Bar should be finished end of next week - getting excited...
Shame the conicals won't be ready for my birthday on Monday, but hopefully xmas is looking good


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## normell (28/10/05)

Early happy birthday for Monday Ross

Normell


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## tangent (29/10/05)

Wortgames, i have organised someone who's coming back from Tassie after Festivus and will have room in the back of their wagon for a stainless conical when they drive from Melbs to Adl. - hint hint.
Keep me posted mate, and yeah, Director of Finance and Entertainment will be sniffing around so Mum's the word!
"They were practically giving them away, it was so cheap, I can't even remember what it costed honey!"


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## Brizbrew (29/10/05)

I would love to get my mits on one of these babies, they will be soooo sexy. 

Following the progress with interest. :beerbang:


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## Wortgames (5/11/05)

Not much to report yet and no pics, but we've tacked the first prototype together and I am very happy with it at this stage. The first one was built out of 1.6mm stainless and is probably a bit over-engineered, so we are going to go with 1.2mm.

I think we've got the lids and fittings just about finalised, and I've settled on some target size configurations which I thought I'd share.

28L: approx 30cm in diameter / 56cm tall (ex valve). Suit 23-25L batches (10-20% headspace).
46L: approx 30cm in diameter / 81cm tall (ex valve). Suit 38-42L batches (10-20% headspace).
56L: approx 42cm in diameter / 73cm tall (ex valve). Suit 46-51L batches (10-20% headspace).

You'll need to add about 8-10cm to the height for valves and about the same again for your airlock. The rim will add about 3cm to the diameter.

Note that the 46L model does not have the ideal geometry, but I reckon it is within the bounds of sensibility. The advantage is that it will comfortably ferment 2 kegs worth and I can fit 2 of them side by side in my commercial fridge B) 

The 28 and 56L sizes are both well within Fix's guidelines.

For temperature regulation we plan to offer a 316 grade stainless immersion coil, which will fit through the polycarbonate lid using cable glands. This is going to be a cheaper, neater and more efficient method than external coils or jackets, and it will be easy to add one down the track.

I am desperately hoping to get some of the small ones ready in time for Christmas, we'll have to see how things develop over the next couple of weeks. The larger ones shouldn't be too far behind, and once we've got the accessories sorted out we will eventually be able to offer custom sizes.

Prices are still subject to firming, but it's looking good.

:beer:


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## timmy (5/11/05)

before anyone else cany say,

Pics???????????????


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## Darren (5/11/05)

20% headspace is good.I only usually use 5-10% headspace


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## sluggerdog (5/11/05)

Wortgames said:


> For temperature regulation we plan to offer a 316 grade stainless immersion coil, which will fit through the polycarbonate lid using cable glands. This is going to be a cheaper, neater and more efficient method than external coils or jackets, and it will be easy to add one down the track.
> 
> [post="88491"][/post]​



Looking good WG.

With the immersiion coil would this be capable of keeping the wort at lager fermenting temps and do away with the need for a fermenting fridge? If so I cannot wait, 46L sounds perfect for this.

Cheers :beerbang:


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## Wortgames (5/11/05)

sluggerdog said:


> Looking good WG.
> 
> With the immersiion coil would this be capable of keeping the wort at lager fermenting temps and do away with the need for a fermenting fridge? If so I cannot wait, 46L sounds perfect for this.
> 
> ...




I reckon it should work well. It'll be a case of trial and error with insulation and chilling method, but I can't see any reason you wouldn't be able to chill down to quite low temps with the right setup.


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## Matty (7/11/05)

Wow...
I'd love to get my hands on one of these puppies..
I am assuming around the $700 mark for the 56L model with butterfly valves?


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## big d (7/11/05)

can someone please lend wortgames a camera.  
the suspense is killing a few of us.

cheers
big d


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## timmy (7/11/05)

I can email him a camera.


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## Wortgames (8/11/05)

Sorry guys, I'm conferencing all this week but hopefully my munchkins are toiling behind the scenes and I'll try and get some pics on the weekend. The first one was pretty ugly as it was only tacked together to check dimensions, and I didn't even think to take the camera with me.

Remain calm, nothing to see


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## Doc (8/11/05)

Don't worry guys.
I took delivery today of the prototype for R&D testing.
The prototype is a bit bigger that the planned production models, but the key spec's are all proportional so will scale down.

Here is a piccy.





Beers,
Doc

PS: It holds 126,000 gallons :lol: link


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/11/05)

Doc...

You owe me a new keyboard cause I spilt beer on it from laughing so hard


AND you owe me a beer as well.... :lol:


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## deadly (8/11/05)

:lol:


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## Wortgames (8/11/05)

note to self: make sure munchkins are using millimetres NOT feet...


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## warrenlw63 (8/11/05)

:lol: Mmmmm.... The Saturn 5 conical.  

Warren -


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## Little_Squares (9/11/05)

I'm the wife (and NSW Homebrew Judge) of a home brewer and would love to be able to give one of these to him for Christmas...... how are we looking?? :?


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## tangent (9/11/05)

we can't tell you or you might tell the other wifes


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## Wortgames (9/11/05)

I'll let you know as soon as I can - watch this space or send me an email if you don't check in very often.

More news after the weekend I hope!


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## Doc (12/11/05)

I really hope these come to fruition and soon Wortgames, as that will be my Xmas present from my wife.
Don't think I've really looked forward to the end of the weekend before, but I'm itiching to see some photos.

Beers,
Doc


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## Linz (12/11/05)

Doc, 

My skin is crawling too..and Im cashed up ready to go...


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## Wortgames (13/11/05)

*Hallelujah!*

OK boys and girls, here is your first sighting of a real genuine wortgames cylindro-conical unitank-style fermenting vessel.

Please ignore the weld quality, this is purely a prototype that has been put together under trying circumstances by Me Mate Glyn (pictured), to test fittings and to appease you guys.



*Me Mate Glyn*

I can't show you Me Mate Glyn's face cos he's the guy that NASA send their welding to when they get stuck, and he's in the Welder Protection Program.

You would not believe the kind of stuff that Me Mate Glyn can do with a suitably equipped workshop, but right here he's using a borrowed welder in his ex-girlfriend's back yard. Apparently NASA insist on this.

The genuine articles will most likely be welded in a pharmaceutical plant engineering facility on millions of dollars worth of equipment, unless we can fit millions of dollars worth of pharmaceutical plant welding equipment in the back of a 1986 Mitsubishi L300 and an ex-girlfriend's back yard.




*Mmm, stainlessy...*

The basic plot is that the bottom of the fermenter terminates in a triclover type threadless ferrule, and the valve (rather cunningly I thought) does the same thing. Pictured is a 1" butterfly valve, but there will be the option of a few different valves as mentioned earlier in this thread.

The legs will be essentially adjustable and based on square-section sockets with a pin to lock the legs in place. This may help to keep freight costs down if you want long legs, you could opt to buy them legless and visit your local square-section stainless / mild steel / aluminium / timber / titanium supplier to get some lengths of whatever material you want cut to whatever height you want. You'll just need to drill them for the locking pins.

The top of the fermenter will have a rim and use a stainless steel clamping ring with an overcentre lever to clamp the lid to the fermenter. The lid itself will be 6mm polycarbonate to begin with but toughened glass may be an option next year if we can get some sensible pricing. Polycarbonate is very strong, relatively cheap and can easily be modified to accept a plethora (if not a myriad) of fittings such as airlocks, gas fittings, chiller coils and satellite dishes. Toughened glass will be more scratch resistant and therefore more sanitary over the longer term. Both will hopefully use the same silicone seal.

*Estimated Time of Arrival*

Trust me, I'm spending far too much time and money on pulling this together, but I have enough packet noodles to last me until Christmas. The situation as it stands is that the prototype pictured was built from my original apparition. The lid rings had to be sourced and flown in from overseas, and they are a bit larger than originally specified, so the design has now been tweaked to fit them. I will only get a couple of new blanks cut and rolled, until we can build the next prototype and confirm the fit with the lid rings. Assuming the fit is good I can then get a bunch of blanks cut and rolled and we are all go, but if my maths is kaput then we'll have to go through the cycle again. Unfortunately, Australia being the awesome and lucky country that it is, most suppliers are far busier buying new cars and swimming pools than returning customer phone calls or keeping promises so every step takes rather longer than we would all like.

I would dearly like to think a few of these are bubbling away on boxing day, but I'm very much aware that it's already mid-November and that a lot of industry is already cramming their existing work and thinking about hibernation for the summer, so I really don't want to make promises or take any money yet. I'm essentially optimistic though.

Expect another update next weekend!

:beer:


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## deadly (13/11/05)

FAARRRRK that rocks


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## Linz (13/11/05)

Dang....

Just made mess..... :wub: :blink: :blink:


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## tangent (13/11/05)

That really is a work of art!
I want one like i want supermodels


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## ntboozer (13/11/05)

Oh yeah....how good does that look...... :beerbang: 
I think I'll wait to upgrade my fermentation fridge until after specs are available for these babies.......Mmmmmmm shiney toys.
nt
:beer:


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## JasonY (13/11/05)

Looks very very nice wortgames!


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## Doc (13/11/05)

Schwing

Now counting the days to next weekend, and dearly hoping the ex girlfriend doesn't discover that you've been using her backyard, and someone else doesn't discover you are using their welder.

If you need some help in liasing with NASA to get Glyn released for this high priority time critical and critical path project for the greater well-being of Australian brewers, then drop me a PM. I know some guys who don't know some guys, but do know them if you know what I mean 

And by the way those pictures (over looking the welding) is pure 110% shiney eye candy on a Sunday night :lol:

Keep up the good work and don't over indulge on the packet noodles.

Beers,
Doc


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## jgriffin (13/11/05)

Damn... where's those tissues?


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## Linz (13/11/05)

sorry...I used them all

Lots of mess!


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## warrenlw63 (13/11/05)

Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... Shiney... :blink: 

Warren -


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (13/11/05)

Thats going straight to the pool room!

On the subject of toughened glass. This may be a problem as the glass is cut to size first then kilned, during this process it tends to warp a bit and could cause problems with sealing. 
Just something to bear in mind.




spelling corrected due to drunkeness.


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## AndrewQLD (14/11/05)

NIIICe, looking forward to next weekend. Have to say your a genius Wortgames, that is one professional looking fermenter. I will put my order in now.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Ross (14/11/05)

Bugger - Had convinced myself I didn't really need one - Now you go & show those pics :wub: - This forum will send me broke...


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## Shunty (14/11/05)

I wonder if air new zealand will take one as cary-on luggage.....


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## Weizguy (14/11/05)

Mmmmmm, yum (says Seth, crawling out from under his lurking-rock).

Must buy one b4 the missus wastes my money on socks, hankies and undies for Chrissy gifts.

I agree with Warren too...*shiny!*

Seth out (yet in, too)


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## FNQ Bunyip (14/11/05)

Wortgames you are to be congratulated that is very nice . 

However you realy need to look after your mate GLYN better if hes going to get around to building one or more of thease for us all . Tig welding in shorts and short sleves is not recomended . My other half wont let me sleep in our bed if I come home ROASTED from just a little tack darl it will be right ....... mmmmm .... a few hours later and that mild smell of roast bunyip ...get out you stink ,, not to mention skin and other cancers from welding radiation.... anyway rant over , just take care of GLYN...

Well done to you both ....

Cheers fnqbunyip


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## Wortgames (14/11/05)

Hehehe sounds like I'll need a chaperone if I'm delivering any of these by hand :blink: 

Bunyip - we are both Englishmen, so our natural skin colour is a kind of pale blue. It takes us about a week of sunbathing to go white. Having said that I am a little pink today, so I'll be investing in a $10 'supervisor' welding mask from Bunnings, so I can watch and criticise in relative comfort during the welding process. Glyn's legs are beyond any help whatsoever.

Vlad - good point re the toughened glass, I haven't looked into it much at all at this stage but that is a useful tip.

Doc - I don't want to use up any favours with NASA just yet, at least not until Glyn starts work on the titanium fermenter we've got planned which may require welding in zero gravity or something. 

Hopefully we can turn a few of these out soon, until then I'm living on a subsistence diet of MSG and hotel minties.


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## PhilS (14/11/05)

Top notch work Wortgames & Glyn. That has definately wet the appetite


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## kook (14/11/05)

Awesome.

I look forward to watching this come along


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## spog (14/11/05)

i tip,s me 'at to you both. very very niiiice. cheers spog :beerbang:


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## Doc (15/11/05)

Just been thinking about this some more and I will have to change the way I do some things on brewday in order to incorporate a SS conical.
I brew under the pagola, but then have to get the fermenter into the shed and into the chest freezer. Easy with a 25 litre plastic fermenter, just lift it up.
Will be a bit harder with a SS Conical as I still have to get up the four steps to the shed, then lift it into the freezer. 
Wheels, or a platform on wheels for the fermenter will solve the pagola to the shed part, but depending on weight getting it up four steps and lifting into the shed might be a bit of an effort.
Do you think a March pump will be able to pump my wort 20 meters with about a 2 meter head ?

Doc


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## Justin (15/11/05)

Only one way to find out Doc, hook up the garden hose and give it a go with water. How much beer would you expect to lose in the hose do you think?


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## dreamboat (15/11/05)

You could always isolate the hose at the low end when you finish pumping, switch off the pump, then raise the hose up to get it to drain through into the fermenter.... you would have to let some air in to break the vacuum, but it could be done.

Or you could do what the petroleum boys do, and pump a second, completely different substance through the line after the wort has all been pumped..... water would be my liquid of choice. It would only take you a couple of practice runs to see that you need to run through either a fixed additional volume to clear the pipeline, or run for a fixed time with water to get the wort through.... either way, you could keep any losses to a minimum.

dreamboat


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## Wortgames (15/11/05)

Another option might be to fill plastic containers as normal, and then drain these into the conicals in situ. Might be an extra opportunity for aeration too.

Alternatively it might be time to get a bigger brewery


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## Batz (15/11/05)

Doc said:


> Just been thinking about this some more and I will have to change the way I do some things on brewday in order to incorporate a SS conical.
> I brew under the pagola, but then have to get the fermenter into the shed and into the chest freezer. Easy with a 25 litre plastic fermenter, just lift it up.
> Will be a bit harder with a SS Conical as I still have to get up the four steps to the shed, then lift it into the freezer.
> Wheels, or a platform on wheels for the fermenter will solve the pagola to the shed part, but depending on weight getting it up four steps and lifting into the shed might be a bit of an effort.
> ...



A bamboo pole and two buckets Doc? :lol: 

Batz


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## Guest Lurker (15/11/05)

I have bamboo available at very reasonable rates.


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## Hoops (15/11/05)

Justin said:


> Only one way to find out Doc, hook up the garden hose and give it a go with water. How much beer would you expect to lose in the hose do you think?
> [post="90753"][/post]​


none if you can turn off the tap from kettle and open one from HLT so you flush the line with boiled sanitised water?!


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## redbeard (15/11/05)

dreamboat said:


> Or you could do what the petroleum boys do, and pump a second, completely different substance through the line after the wort has all been pumped.....
> [post="90756"][/post]​



dont they use pigs in the pipe to seperate the 2 liquids ? <_< 

(just google it ok ?)


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## sintax69 (15/11/05)

Why not make a straight 20 m CFC with couple lengths of copper pipe kill 2 birds


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## Doc (22/11/05)

Any more pics after last weekend Wortgames ?

Beers,
Doc


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## Wortgames (22/11/05)

Sorry Doc, we ran out of time on the weekend but we're planning another session on Thursday night.

Hopefully we'll actually be able to finish the first working vessel then, and if we're really lucky we'll get some legs on it too. It will at least look the part but I'm concerned about getting a tight seal with the lid at the moment, so the dimensions may still need some fine tuning before production.

Either way I should be able to post some better pics then.

Unfortunately it's not looking too great for delivery before Christmas, everyone I'm dealing with is already complaining that they've got too much work on, but I'm not giving up yet. Obviously I want to be sure that the design is perfect before I go ahead with any quantities.

I'll post an update as soon as I have anything.

:beer:


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## Wortgames (27/11/05)

Apologies for the lack of updates, there hasn't really been much to tell.

Unfortunately Christmas is looking almost impossible. Mrs Me Mate Glyn is pregnant, they are trying to find a new house and the powers that be are keeping Glyn's nose to the grindstone. Couple that with the general inability to get anything out of anybody during the leadup to Christmas and I'd have to bet on us not getting there. Sorry.

Basically, the general design is just about complete and what I've shown you in the previous pics is close to what we'll have. I've got a bit closer with the lid arrangement, it will look something like this:





The seal will not be quite as large, and my material of choice will be clear silicone, but you get the idea.

As mentioned previously the legs will be 'sockets' for 4 x 30mm whatever, and they will be attached corner-on to form a square. I will be able to provide stainless legs in different sizes but it will obviously be cheaper for people to source their own locally.

There are a few reasons I am going with 4 legs over 3, but here are some of them:
1. more stable (larger footprint)
2. much easier to build your own free-standing stand (or wall bracket)
3. legs will form part of handle arrangement
4. easier to fit in square spaces (I know, it sounds weak to me too).

There are just a few things slowing us down at the moment, aside from welder virility. I am still refining a lot of the details, and for obvious reasons the design isn't going to work until everything fits together properly. There is a lot of back-and-forth between suppliers until we settle on The Final Solution, and once we do that we then need to construct the appropriate jigs.

Once we start producing them we'll be able to support them as a 'product line' rather than just a bunch of one-off fabrications.

I still haven't decided what to do about the side port. The main purpose I can see for a side port at all is for sampling. When racking it should be easy to dump the sediment first and rack from the bottom. For this reason I was planning to supply them without side fittings, as it may not be necessary and if you want one it should be easy to drill a hole and add a weldless fitting (the rotating racking arms are a weldless design). However I am tempted to look at adding a smaller triclover ferrule to the side, as it should be possible to create a rotating design by welding a tube into the valve and lubricating the seal during assembly.

_[EDIT: I have since done some more research and the consensus seems to be that you can never really clear all of the yeast out of the bottom port - although most existing designs have some sort of ledge at the cone end which this design doesn't have]_

Does anybody have any input on what size valve they would want on the side port, and what they intend to use it for?

:beer:


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## jgriffin (27/11/05)

Well my thought would be for sampling and testing. Wouldn't it be a bit hard to take a gravity measurement through the dump valve without throwing away a litre or so of yeast trub every time?


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## Wortgames (27/11/05)

The simple answer is that you really wouldn't take gravity readings through the bottom valve at all, but as home brewers we can easily open the lid to take samples (with a wine thief or by taking direct reading with a sanitised hydrometer) which the big breweries can't do.

I was more wondering whether anyone reckons they would want to rack from the side port, leaving the trub in place, which might affect the type of valve we go with and its position.

???


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## AndrewQLD (27/11/05)

Racking from a side port sounds a lot better than from the bottom, You will definately not be getting any trub or yeast through the side port, whereas from the bottom could be quite wasteful, you could lose a fair bit of wort befor it cleared up enough.
Love the lid design it looks clean and simple. hope your mate and his missus have a smooth move too.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Doc (27/11/05)

Wortgames said:


> I was more wondering whether anyone reckons they would want to rack from the side port, leaving the trub in place, which might affect the type of valve we go with and its position.



Possibly depending on the height of the bottom valve from the ground and the ability to get the beer out and into a keg without moving it from the freezer. Maybe easier to use the side port and a little CO2 to get the beer out.

Doc


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## Hoops (28/11/05)

When speaking to my mate (owns the conical I posted the pic of) - he said that you need to rack from the side valve as you will never get all the trub and yeast out if you rack from the dump valve. By using the side racking valve you let all the trub & yeast settle then draw from above it all so you get crystal clear beer.

As you say though they can always be added later.

Hoops


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## ausdb (29/11/05)

Wortgames said:


> I was more wondering whether anyone reckons they would want to rack from the side port, leaving the trub in place, which might affect the type of valve we go with and its position.



WG why not just give them the option of having an extra 1" ferrule welded on 1/2 way up the cone for a few extra bucks? Even if you don't use it straight away it just takes a blank, gasket and clamp to seal.


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## Hoops (29/11/05)

ausdb said:


> WG why not just give them the option of having an extra 1" ferrule welded on 1/2 way up the cone for a few extra bucks? Even if you don't use it straight away it just takes a blank, gasket and clamp to seal.
> [post="94038"][/post]​


Great idea ausdb, triclove fittings rock!

You're not a real brewer until you use tri-clove fittings h34r:


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## Trent (29/11/05)

I was always under the impression with a conical that you dont need to rack, just dump all the yeast and trub out of the bottom valve, and it is the same result as racking. Never hada conicla, it is just how I thought it went, is this right, or is there some flaw in my thinking?
All the best
Trent


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## Doc (29/11/05)

You are correct Trent.
I think Hoops is referring to racking to a keg or bottling bucket.

Beers,
Doc


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## Hoops (29/11/05)

As far as I understand yes & no :huh: 
You dump the majority of the trub & break material (as Doc has said).

When the yeast flocculates you can then take some of that for repitching.
I think the problem is that when you try and dump all yeast and trub you get turbulence caused in the cone which would mix some of the yeast and trub back into the beer so it would be a bit cloudy again. By drawing from the side port you don't disturb the yeast at all and get crystal clear beer. For most people this probably is a minor concern and might not be a problem.
We really need someone that has used conicals before to give us the heads up.

Hoops


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## Wortgames (29/11/05)

ausdb said:


> WG why not just give them the option of having an extra 1" ferrule welded on 1/2 way up the cone for a few extra bucks? Even if you don't use it straight away it just takes a blank, gasket and clamp to seal.




I agree ausdb, but I'm leaning towards using a 3/4" fitting to keep the cost of fittings down a little bit, and I can't see any need for a larger fitting on the side. The dump valve needs to handle solids but the side valve should always be clear sailing, so smaller is probably better in terms of flow control, hose diameters etc.

I could offer the same thing I am planning to have available for the bottom, basically a threaded ferrule which you can clamp on, which will then take a normal threaded ball valve. This would be a nice cheap option for folks that can't afford to get the works straight up, as they can use extremely cheap ball valves from Bunnings or similar to get started.

The ideal option would be something similar to this:

http://www.deerislandbrewery.com/rotating_racking_arm.htm

which we should be able to make down the track.


Anyhow, we got a couple more built, they aren't as big as the first one I sent Doc but I think I still need to check my dimensions:






:beer:


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## mikem108 (19/1/06)

Any idea when these will be available for purchase?


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## Doc (21/1/06)

Hey WG. 
Hope you have all the ex-girlfriends and fabrication location situations sorted as well as having a break over Xmas.
Already planning my birthday present list so looking forward to updates and seeing these fermenters out in the wild in '06

Beers,
Doc


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## Linz (21/1/06)

Missed Christmas and my Birthday <_< 


This year !


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## coolum brewer (18/2/06)

Bump.


Any more news?


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## Doc (2/3/06)

The solution for the installation of aftermarket cooling for SS Conicals.

Any updates WG ?

Beers,
Doc


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## FNQ Bunyip (2/3/06)

Looks the goods there DOC  might need 3 or 4 fitted though up this way. My ambiant water temp atm is 26.8c ... Got to love brewing in the tropics 



Hows the conicals going Wortgames ???? 
Earth to Wortgames , come in Wortgames!!!


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## Doc (2/3/06)

FNQ Bunyip said:


> Looks the goods there DOC  might need 3 or 4 fitted though up this way. My ambiant water temp atm is 26.8c ... Got to love brewing in the tropics



I think with insulation on the conical you could get away with one for ales and two for lagers.

Beers,
Doc


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## Hoops (1/4/06)

Seriously thinking about buying one from G&G soon.
Any updates Wortgames?

Hoops


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## BrissyBrew (1/4/06)

Hoops

I am in the design phase at present (25L plus in size will hold pressure). But I am more than 3 months away from getting samples out. I may even have to go to China again to organise this one, but I have been putting it off.


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## kirem (1/4/06)

I too am working on a conical design.

The guys at work are a bit busy with vintage to finish them off just yet.

I am doing a 50L design for the fridge and 200L stand alone temp controlled one.

I am also getting a reproduction of a 3 roller mill, but with a motor and hopper, ready to roll or crush as it may be.

I am also looking into a locally made and designed version of a US companies 3 or 2 tier pilot brewery, again 50L and 200L

Sorry for the hijack.

K


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## ntboozer (14/6/06)

It's been over two months since the last post. Any updates from all those out there that have tempted and teased us with the thought of affordable Aust designed and made SS conicals?
Cheers
nt
:beer: 
(who is about to upgrade small fermentation fridge to chest freezer, something a SS conical won't fit in  )


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## darkhorse (17/6/06)

don't you like the tease...?

but seriously SS conical or plastic, I'd be interested.

and the 3 roller mill...

50 litre pilot brewery sound awesome but I'm scared to find out the $$$

How about an update / ETA....? 

Brissybrew? / Kirem?


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## jagerbrau (23/6/06)

bump


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## Chilled (24/6/06)

Hey I'm interested too...but have you seen the date that BrissyBrew & kirem posted on. Have we been had?


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## ntboozer (24/6/06)

Mmmm - thinking the same here. Was all looking good there for a while then nothing. Perhaps access to the eng. shop was stopped when all the prototypes started appearing each morning. 
nt
:beer:


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## Andyd (25/6/06)

I'm hoping something happens before I get overly excited and build a couple of 50L copper fermenters...


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## Chilled (25/6/06)

Hey Andyd

Have you seen this

Copper Conicals


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## Andyd (25/6/06)

I did - I also saw a recent thread here  that suggests that copper is not suitable for a fermentor... bummer!


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## Chilled (25/6/06)

Just emailed the guy to see what experiences he had with his copper conical. Will let you know if and when he replies. Must admit I had my suspicions about copper though.


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## kirem (8/7/06)

Update,

I took my mill back from the guys at work; I got lots of promises and then nothing. I saw some very good progress early on, but the knurl on the rollers was to fine and I doubt it would have been able to draw in the grain. They kept saying week after week that they need to order in some new knurling tools, it never happened.

I am thinking of getting some drawings made up at work, by a guy who will get the job done and then for those who can get machine work done, use the drawings. I am still thinking of getting the rollers made by an outsource shop. The end plates and bushes, I can get done, easily. I really want to provide a complete working unit and varying levels of 'completeness', so you can add your own motor etc if you want to DIY or just buy a complete working unit.

The conical idea had a set back. I work for a major beverage company and was told I could get U/S 50L SS kegs from them for a song. When it came time to make it happen, some upper management decided it was a good time to change the rules on selling kegs to staff, it is now absolutely forbidden, something about pressure vessels and liability. My backup plan was to ask the guys who are doing the stainless work on my brewery for a quote; I am going to get a couple made for myself regardless (unless brissybrew comes up with another unbeatable price). So stay tuned, I know it is tedious, but this is not my fulltime job.

The breweries, similar to what morebeer make and sell and are still my number one idea. I am getting my own test rig altered at present. I will then do a few test brews and a few invite brewers to give it a go.

This is also a very busy time of the year for me at work, I have many blends that need to be together and in the bottle yesterday and the marketers keep changing the time frames on the products.

Just like shampoo, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen.


K


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## darkhorse (8/7/06)

Well I have drawn up my Mill plans in 3D just need to prepare the drawings for manufacture... have acquired some 2" SS rod and that is the key.

When the drawings are done I will make them available... similar design to most others. I hope to have it designed and my own mill functional by the end of the month (unless life gets in the way).

I'm keen to get more info in the stainless conicals though... even if it is mainly for the bling factor! B)


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## ozpowell (17/4/07)

Hey Brissy,

Any update on the conicals or the mills?

Thanks,
Michael.


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## Parkdale Brewer (23/4/07)

*


Wortgames said:



Hi everyone, just thought I'd post a quick update on these conicals. We are hoping to have the first prototype built within a week or so, and all details are still subject to change.

Basically the first model will be about 300mm in diameter and a bit less than 600mm tall without legs. The capacity will be about 28L to the brim, which gives you a 20% headspace on a 23L batch and 10% headspace on a 25.5L batch.

The lid is likely to be a 6mm polycarbonate disc with a silicone seal around the edge, which attaches with a stainless steel lever-lock ring.

The fermenter is constructed from 1.6mm 316 stainless (better than 304 due to improved resistance to caustic cleaners. Both are food grade). It will terminate in a 1.5" triclover ferrule at the bottom, and at this stage they will be supplied without a side port option, although we hope to have some good options for that by the time we are shipping them.

The prices are still yet to be confirmed and there are lots of variables, but the fermenter and lid arrangement (no tap or legs) will probably come in under $300. Not sure yet whether this will be for a 'raw' one or fully polished.

It looks like we've been able to get some good pricing on sanitary valves and fittings, and we will probably offer 5 bottom valve options:

Valve option 1: The cheapest option is to provide you with a threaded spigot that will clamp on, which can then accept any BSP threaded valve (eg $8 in Bunnings). This spigot will probably cost around $20.

Valve option 2: For around $100 we can offer a threadless, stainless 1" sanitary ball valve, with full teflon seals and fully dismantleable, which will clamp straight onto the fermenter. The outlet of this will accept 1" PVC tubing. They are very tight fitting seals and unlikely to harbour gunk, so dismantling the valve should only be required occasionally (certainly not every brew).

Valve option 3: For around $170 you can get a 1.5" version of the sanitary ball valve. This will also clamp directly to the fermenter but offers the largest throat of all the options (possibly too large). It will also need larger outlet tubing.

Valve option 4: For the same $170 (approx) you can get a 1" butterfly valve. These are a thing of awesome stainlessy beauty (I have a couple here) and they have no cavity for bugs to lurk. They are also fully dismantleable for seal replacement - you shouldn't need to dismantle them for cleaning, just flush. However, if you regularly have solids in your fermenter, the fact that the butterfly sits mid-stream may lead to occasional blockages.

Valve option 5: For about $180, you can get a 1.5" butterfly valve. This will certainly handle hop detritus much better than the 1", but again requires fairly large diameter tubing on the outlet side.

A fully optioned, gleaming fermenter with legs will hopefully come in between $600 - $700, and a basic raw vessel, ready for you to finish will hopefully be under $300.

I'll be offering a discount in the region of 10% to AHB folks who order and pay before Christmas (assuming things go well with the prototype!), as the early customers will obviously help us get it off the ground. We'd like to retail these through homebrew shops so we won't be discounting once we've set prices. They will be far better and far cheaper than anything else available. The build quality will be superb and we intend to back these things up with a lengthy warranty.

When I have a prototype and some piccies and better prices I'll let you know the details. Obviously we'd like to make a quid out of these for all the folks involved, and hopefully the customer will still get a great Aussie-built bargain. However, if the mods have an issue with this becoming commercial please let me know and we can take it offline.

Anybody drooling yet?

:beer:

Click to expand...

*


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## Batz (23/4/07)

I can live without a stainless conical,waste of money IMO,and it will not fit into my fridge.

Batz


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## T.D. (23/4/07)

Batz said:


> I can live without a stainless conical,waste of money IMO,and it will not fit into my fridge.
> 
> Batz



I agree Batz. I still can't really figure out what the HUGE benefit even is. I mean, I know all the "pros and cons" but a $500-$600 fermenter can't be _that_ much better than a $30 plastic carboy surely!!??? Just a big "bling" premium in my opinion... h34r:


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## kook (23/4/07)

T.D. said:


> I agree Batz. I still can't really figure out what the HUGE benefit even is. I mean, I know all the "pros and cons" but a $500-$600 fermenter can't be _that_ much better than a $30 plastic carboy surely!!??? Just a big "bling" premium in my opinion... h34r:



Personally, I'd love one for the ability to:

Seperate cold break (I use a CFWC)
Remove trub prior to conditioning, without moving vessels
Harvest Yeast in a sealed environment
Transfer directly to keg using pressure in a sealed environment

I realise you can pretty much do all of this with a plastic carboy, but it is easier with a conical.

Plus, have you seen how shiny they are?


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/4/07)

T.D. said:


> I agree Batz. I still can't really figure out what the HUGE benefit even is. I mean, I know all the "pros and cons" but a $500-$600 fermenter can't be _that_ much better than a $30 plastic carboy surely!!??? Just a big "bling" premium in my opinion... h34r:



You're paying too much for your plastic there, T.D. ...  

If I was brewing on a much bigger budget, it would be on the list of things to have, but not near the top.

I'm yet to find a buffing compound that brings out the bright, shiny lustre of my Bunnings fermenters. :blink:


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## delboy (23/4/07)

i cant understand why this homebrewing fraturnity don't get together and get a custom molded plastic fermenter blown surly that would be a cheaper option
del


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/4/07)

delboy said:


> i cant understand why this homebrewing fraturnity don't get together and get a custom molded plastic fermenter blown surly that would be a cheaper option
> del



I'd have to guess that it wouldn't any cheaper than these: http://www.rotamoulding.com.au/Cone.htm which would still price it out of my range until the lotto faery shat on me...


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## /// (23/4/07)

kook said:


> Personally, I'd love one for the ability to:
> 
> Seperate cold break (I use a CFWC)
> Remove trub prior to conditioning, without moving vessels



Thats not too hard, if using ale yeast skim the dirty head.

[/quote]

Harvest Yeast in a sealed environment
Transfer directly to keg using pressure in a sealed environment
[/quote]

On yeast harvesting, for ale yeast you want the head not the floc'ed yeast. Ale yeast self selects the best crop of yeast by the healthy yeast being ontop of the fermentation. Dead or poor condition cells fall out.

Yeast health is also questionable for conicals due to pressure and temperatures at the bottom of the cone. Alot of negative sentiment has come out about the use of the fermenters in the bigger end of town with some looking at alternate vessels. Also sealed fermentations?? Get good wort and enough good yeast and there is little need??

Additionaly if there are fermentation issues how does one rouse a cylindronical? Stories of UK brewers used to squares when swapping to cylindro's has seen beer blowing out of the fermenter and a right awful mess, not less the damage to the tank when they tried to rouse - pressure and dissolved gas makes for a fun time.

I am lucky to have been lent a 40 odd litre old wine keg - it has post mix fittings (gas in/dip tube) so i can ferment, skim and then close off at 1.018 (or so) to carbonate the beer and allow this carbonation to push out the beer on transfer. Saves on gas and lifting.


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## hughman666 (23/4/07)

as an in-between, it would be good to get hold of a plastic conical like asher's - from my blurred memory i think it was a 100L jobby.

any idea where to source one of these?


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## Andyd (23/4/07)

One of the things that has put me off thinking about plastic for a conical is that these vessles are gas permeable - oxygen will get in, and probably affect your beer, especially during an extended fermentation (say 8-12 weeks like the one I'm doing at the moment).

You could, I guess, use the conical for cultivating the yeast and then transfer to another vessel, but that would defeat one of the purposes of the conical in the first place (i.e. dumping your yeast and continuing the ferment without puting your beer at risk during transfer).

The more I think about it, the more I realise that conicals are not necessary for me. What I _*do*_ need to do is find a more effective way to maintain the temperature of my fermentors - having fridges all over the place is pissing my wife off  just isn't working for me


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## Ross (23/4/07)

hughman666 said:


> as an in-between, it would be good to get hold of a plastic conical like asher's - from my blurred memory i think it was a 100L jobby.
> 
> any idea where to source one of these?



Look 2 posts up at SpillsmostOfit's link  

cheers ross


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## Ross (23/4/07)

Andyd said:


> One of the things that has put me off thinking about plastic for a conical is that these vessles are gas permeable - oxygen will get in, and probably affect your beer, especially during an extended fermentation (say 8-12 weeks like the one I'm doing at the moment).



If oxygen is going to permutate through the plastic & spoil your beer in 8 - 12 weeks we are all in the poo!!!
There is no risk to be worried about...

cheers Ross


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## Asher (23/4/07)

My Cylindroconical has slotted into the Juncthouse nicely. 
So far I've managed to:

- Dump a lager yeast off the bottom to rescue a Flanders Red pitched with a Roselare blend that had some gravity issues.. This was at the end of a ferment and I had chilled the beer. Yeast was dumped without disturbing clearing beer above it

- Achieve very healthy fermentation. Seem to be fermenting beers out by a few extra gravity points (enough to have me considering tweaking my mash temps to compensate). To many new variables to pinpoint exactly why though.

- No longer lifting anything over 20kg's (my kegs). I have worked out a good CIP process for the fermenter between beers now. Probably not the most water efficient. The conical bottom makes CIP a breeze. Having the fridge on wheels helps too.

If I was doing small batches I'd stick with a standard 30l plastic fermenter. Anything up around the 60l+ mark, Cylindroconicals are the way to go IMO.

Asher


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