# My Belgians Are Often Horrible



## manticle (25/6/10)

Sipping (and wincing) on a dubbel that was tasting on target during ferment and showed promise early on. A few months down the track, it's a lovely colour, beautiful clarity but just tastes wrong. A bit yeasty a bit unpleasantly phenolicky, nowhere near malty enough. Dryness and bitterness in balance I think, warm alc is not over the top, aroma is the same phenolicky yeastiness.

I won't bore you with the recipe but essentially I follow the principles of simple grain bill (mainly pilsner malt with a touch of biscuit and a spec or two for colour), appropriate yeast (in this case 3787) built to good size starter, candi sugar (usually homemade, in this case store bought D2 syrup), sugar added after primary (in this case in increments) and slow cool ferment, secondary ferment, cold conditioned.

It tastes wrong. I will admit that I have had AU microbrewed belgian style attempts that also taste wrong (eg bridge rd) so maybe there's something I'm missing. Most of my tripel attempts have been woeful (recent one is an exception but even though I posted the recipe in the db in excitement at thinking I finally cracked it I'm still not sure).

I've tried mashing low and I've tried mashing high but long (which I think is more in line with the Belgian brewing process).

People who've successfully brewed good dubbels and tripels - what am I doing wrong? Yes I've read Brew like a monk so please don't quote it unless you are actually referring to a method you've tried with success that you think I've missed. More importantly - what do you do right?

By the way - this is specific to my use of Belgian yeasts. While not every brew is perfect or even great, I have good success with weizen, american brown, stout, porter, ESB and APA since I started AG. Just the belgians always seem to poke me in the eye.

Alternative to answering the above - a recipe that includes specific mash schedule, any water chemistry adjustments, yeast starter size and specific fermentation schedule to make a good dubbel in the region of rochefort 8, chimay red or blue or westmalle dubbel would be appreciated. I mean a tried and true recipe that has been brewed several times with consistent results (and hopefully good, objective feedback) because I am about to give up and just focus on getting my English styles to where I want them (probably worth doing anyway).


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## Kai (25/6/10)

Do you always use sugar and/or candi sugar? I would start by dropping them just to see if it makes a difference. Do you normally do the slow cool ferment? Perhaps try warming and speeding that up one or two days into fermentation.

Or perhaps try blending your yeast a la Wyeast 3056 to see if you like that better?


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## bulp (25/6/10)

manticle said:


> and slow cool ferment



It sounds as if you have everything sussed there manticle but this phrase stuck out , from my experience with this yeast i like to pitch at 21c and gradually ramp the temp to 26c this i gleaned from the mighty and no longer present on AHB brewer Bindi who was the Belgian master, the times i've brewed with it i was extremely happy with the results and is my fav yeast so far. Only thing to note is don't crash too soon let the yeast do its thing and clean up after itself. Stick with it, its a beautiful yeast.


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## manticle (25/6/10)

@bulp: I have had experiences of trying to ramp up temp in a chimay white clone that just came out all bananas and ethanol which is why I've become a bit more conservative.

Admittedly my temp control is primitive (works for most beers as long as I'm cautious and I err on the side of cooler rather than hotter) but maybe for something like a dubbel I need to be more specific.

I always leave beer on the yeast for around a week before crashing. Any need for longer with these kinds of beers?

@Kai - always used the candi. Maybe that's a worthwhile experiment - dropping it out to see what happens. I may also try exactly the same grist/fermentables and ferment/mash schedule but with a different yeast and see what the differences are.

I love Belgian beer and would be stoked to replicate the basic things I love about them. Tough nuts to crack for sure.


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## bulp (25/6/10)

manticle said:


> I always leave beer on the yeast for around a week before crashing. Any need for longer with these kinds of beers?



I generally leave my belgians on the yeast for a total of three weeks (including ferment) sometimes longer if i'm being a fat lazy bastard, I probably wouldn't go over four weeks though. Once i tried to rush through a belgian for easter with this yeast and man it was horrible diacetyl city.


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## michaelcocks (25/6/10)

Your Belgian sounds just like every commercial Belgian I've ever tasted


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## manticle (26/6/10)

bulp said:


> I generally leave my belgians on the yeast for a total of three weeks (including ferment) sometimes longer if i'm being a fat lazy bastard, I probably wouldn't go over four weeks though. Once i tried to rush through a belgian for easter with this yeast and man it was horrible diacetyl city.



My normal process with all ales is ferment to 2/3 - 3/4 way through, rack, reach FG, leave on the yeast 1 week, cold condition 1 week minimum then prime and bottle. I have just bought a 23 litre glass demijohn for bulk longer term ageing of beers (like dubbels, stouts and porters) so maybe I'll give this a crack.

Alternatively I might just stick with the beers I'm making well, work on really nailing them consistently then think again about moving into belgian territory.


@Michaelcocks - you're welcome to compare the half bottle I couldn't finish last night (and I've run out of homebrew so that should tell you something) to compare to the commercials and judge if I'm anywhere close.


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## white.grant (26/6/10)

I think Bulp has nailed it for you. Belgian beers are all (well mostly) about the yeast, and how you stress it at the appropriate times to create the flavour profile you are after. 

If you haven't already seen it, there's a good dubbel recipe in JZ's brewing classic styles, he recommends pitching 3787 at 18 degrees and then controlling the temperature increase over the last third of the fermentation cycle.

Based on your comments about low tech temp control, you may need to sort something with more control.

cheers

grant


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Yeah I read that recipe last night and I think it's definitely missing from my process. I was a bit confused though because it's not as if they are lacking in yeast phenolics. Maybe they're just not balanced in the right way with the right esters.

I need to work out how to put in better temp control while still having somewhere to store my yeast and hops. My lady is supportive but I don't think she'll dig a test tube rack in the kitchen fridge or kilos of hop flowers in the freezer. Neither will she be happy about a third fridge and the resultant boost to our power bill.

Cheers all.


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## Screwtop (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> Sipping (and wincing) on a dubbel that was tasting on target during ferment and showed promise early on. A few months down the track, it's a lovely colour, beautiful clarity but just tastes wrong. A bit yeasty a bit unpleasantly phenolicky, nowhere near malty enough. Dryness and bitterness in balance I think, warm alc is not over the top, aroma is the same phenolicky yeastiness.
> 
> I won't bore you with the recipe but essentially I follow the principles of simple grain bill (mainly pilsner malt with a touch of biscuit and a spec or two for colour), appropriate yeast (in this case 3787) built to good size starter, candi sugar (usually homemade, in this case store bought D2 syrup), sugar added after primary (in this case in increments) and slow cool ferment, secondary ferment, cold conditioned.
> 
> ...



Interested to know what IBU'd your Belgians have been brewed to. Belgians like Weizens can be totally off the mark and out of character if the wrong hop varieties are used or IBU's too high. 


Screwy


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Recent tripel was around 36-37 if the software is right. That one turned out OK though and the bitterness was pretty spot on. With dubbels I usually go between 25 and 30.

Hop varieties are always noble hops.

recent dubbel (the one I found undrinkable after a few months in the bottle - 

Style: Belgian Dubbel
Type:	All grain	
Size:	22 liters
Color: 64 HCU (~26 SRM)	
Bitterness:	29 IBU
OG:	1.072	
FG:	1.016
Alcohol:	7.2% v/v (5.7% w/w)
Grain:	6kg JW Pilsner
250g Dingemans biscuit
100g Dingemans Special B
100g JW DK crystal 135-165L
50g JW choc
Mash:	70% efficiency
Boil: 75minutes	
SG 1.053
preboil vol: 30 liters

600g Belgian candi sugar (D2 syrup) added incrementally after high krausen in 200g lots.

Hops: 30g Hallertauer (6.3% AA, 60 min.)
20g Hersbrucker (3.5% AA, 60 min.)

[email protected] for 90 minutes
WY 3787

It's definitely a yeasty characteristic that's overbalanced/out of balance with something. My extract attempts were probably better. Think I might try a really simple golden strong following the suggestions in the style of the week thread and see where we go from there.


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## Kieren (26/6/10)

Have you tried dingnemans pilsner for the base? Or at the very least wey pilsner?


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## manticle (26/6/10)

No but while they might give a better result I can't imagine it's solely that that is giving me this unpleasant character. Still next time I'll give Dingemans a go.


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## bkmad (26/6/10)

With your good size starter, are you pitching the whole thing or letting the yeast settle and draining off the wort before pitching. If you are pitching the whole thing, could your problem be from oxidised wort in the starter tainting the beer?


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## Kieren (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> No but while they might give a better result I can't imagine it's solely that that is giving me this unpleasant character. Still next time I'll give Dingemans a go.



I have always used continental pilsner malt for my belgians and while I am yet to master them I can't say I have had a truly unpleasant one. Not saying this is down to just the malt but I think it is often overlooked with belgians, there is often a lot of it in a belgian recipe. But I follow most of the other advice mentioned here; controlling yeast pitching rates, gradually raising the ferment temp, 90 minute boil, etc


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## manticle (26/6/10)

bkmad said:


> With your good size starter, are you pitching the whole thing or letting the yeast settle and draining off the wort before pitching. If you are pitching the whole thing, could your problem be from oxidised wort in the starter tainting the beer?




I alway pitch my whole starters but control the temperatures and don't agitate once I see signs of fermentation. Again though I might try the next one differently.


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## Smashin (26/6/10)

oxidation of the wort/beer isn't an issue while the yeast is still present to consume it.

Belgian ales are favorite beers, while every brew is different i always have one on the go. 3787 does have a unique flavour/presence even compared to other belgian style yeasts, strong phenolics that last even over 6-8 weeks. Even against other belgian yeasts 3787 ihas that flavour that i can only call trapest. 

Have you tried many other belgian yeasts? I find most belgian yeasts have that great pheolic character which love.

If your only noticing this flavour in your belgian yeasts then id sugest that your probably doing nothing wrongand this is just the inherent flavour of the yeast. I have at time abused my yeasts, under pitch, over heat, temp swings and am yet to brew a belgian style ale that was unplesant. 

Try 1214 for a belgian style yeast that is low in phenolics and rich in bubble gum/bannana flavours.


GL
Smashin :icon_cheers: 



manticle said:


> I alway pitch my whole starters but control the temperatures and don't agitate once I see signs of fermentation. Again though I might try the next one differently.


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## manticle (26/6/10)

I've used both 1214 and 3787. A recent 1214 tripel came out OK and some of the dubbels have not been too bad (most often using 3787). I'm very surprised by this current one - it was shaping up to be the best and has come out the worst. Even my extracts were better and they were just way too sweet.

I think the flavours are inherent but I am somehow using them wrong as they are nothing like the commercial styles I know and love. I know I can't expect a clone but ballpark would be excellent. These are yeast phenolics yes but way out of whack and with none of the lovely fruity esters you get from a westmalle. Re-reading that sentence I believe it may be as simple as the temp control to balance the phenolics with esters. I just don't have this much trouble getting a beautifully balanced, complex English bitter or porter or stout or even APA or hefe (least often brewed styles) so I figure it must be my yeast treatment.

By the way - are you saying it's not possible to oxidise a beer once it begins fermenting? My impression is very different.


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## Smashin (26/6/10)

im sure i'll be proven wrong if it say not possible, but my understanding is just that, hence why oxidation in naturally carbonated beers is not an issue compared to kegging'

smashin

edit: i think the point is that while sugars are available the yeast will use the o2 and ferment agian, hence the difference in a naturally carbonated brew.\\



manticle said:


> I've used both 1214 and 3787. A recent 1214 tripel came out OK and some of the dubbels have not been too bad (most often using 3787). I'm very surprised by this current one - it was shaping up to be the best and has come out the worst. Even my extracts were better and they were just way too sweet.
> 
> I think the flavours are inherent but I am somehow using them wrong as they are nothing like the commercial styles I know and love. I know I can't expect a clone but ballpark would be excellent. These are yeast phenolics yes but way out of whack and with none of the lovely fruity esters you get from a westmalle. Re-reading that sentence I believe it may be as simple as the temp control to balance the phenolics with esters. I just don't have this much trouble getting a beautifully balanced, complex English bitter or porter or stout or even APA or hefe (least often brewed styles) so I figure it must be my yeast treatment.
> 
> By the way - are you saying it's not possible to oxidise a beer once it begins fermenting? My impression is very different.


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## manticle (26/6/10)

My understanding is that once the yeast have finished the aerobic phase, the beer is susceptible to oxidation if agitated too much.


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## Screwtop (26/6/10)

What are they finishing at A ??


Screwy


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Around 1012.

Most of my beers in general seem to get to between 1012 and 1014 unless I use something like lactose. A few mashed lower have hit 1008 (not Belgians though).


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## Screwtop (26/6/10)

Mmmm think I would be dropping the IBU to balance up to the FG. Maybe something around 20 - 25 IBU......... just my 2c worth.

Nothing worse than Belgian friut/phenolics,funk battling bitterness. Weizens are similar, they taste way too clovey and tart if IBU's are much above 15. low bitterness allows the sweetness to enhanse banana and bubblegum. 

Screwy


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Presumably you mean for the dubbel? I'll add that to my growing list of things to try. Admittedly the ones that worked better previously were in the region of 25 so maybe that is what is out of balance along with the esters.

Cheers

to summarise (in addition to what I'm already doing):

Low ferment start, build up to 26 over the next few days.
Keep IBUs down in dubbels to 25 max
Try a bit less sugar
Longer secondary time and maybe longer CC time
Decant my yeast and just add stepped up yeast rather than active starter.


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## bulp (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> to summarise (in addition to what I'm already doing):
> 
> Low ferment start, build up to 26 over the next few days.
> Keep IBUs down in dubbels to 25 max
> ...



Personally, unless i'm dry hopping i don't transfer to a secondary fermenter i don't think its necessary, and your creating another chance for infection and/or increasing the chance of adding unwanted oxygen to your already fermented beer, just my preference. Is there a specific reason you transfer to secondary ? Maybe oxidation is the cause of the unwanted flavours, Do you purge your secondary with co2 before racking ?

Just another thing to think about and add to your growing list of to do's, the way we're going your not gonna know what fixed it :lol: .


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## Screwtop (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> Presumably you mean for the dubbel? I'll add that to my growing list of things to try. Admittedly the ones that worked better previously were in the region of 25 so maybe that is what is out of balance along with the esters.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...



Would worry less about sugar additions.
Temps with Belgians......meeeh just brew them in summer and who cares, vnt-grd approach.
Yes keep the IBU's down
Always pitch an active starter if you can.
Secondary, why!



bulp said:


> Personally, unless i'm dry hopping i don't transfer to a secondary fermenter i don't think its necessary, and your creating another chance for infection and/or increasing the chance of adding unwanted oxygen to your already fermented beer, just my preference. Is there a specific reason you transfer to secondary ? Maybe oxidation is the cause of the unwanted flavours, Do you purge your secondary with co2 before racking ?
> 
> Just another thing to think about and add to your growing list of to do's, the way we're going your not gonna know what fixed it :lol: .




Listen to Him ▲

Screwy


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## manticle (26/6/10)

I rack for a secondary fermentation -i e 2/3 the way through so it's still actively fermenting. I started doing this a long time ago due to reading about it (thought I'd give it a crack). It's to give the active yeast a chance to continue fermenting while removing the stuff that's done it's dash.

I have a tendency to leave my beers for some time after FG to condition (minimum 5 days but if the weather is cool or I'm busy it will be up to 3 weeks). They then get CC'ed. I know people suggest that it's not necessary with ales but I have noticed a bit of unpleasant yeastiness in some beers I haven't racked. It makes bottling a lot easier too and I don't worry about racking to bulk prime. I know it's a potential infection risk and I have had infections but most beers that get racked come out fine (and better than those I haven't).

I have no means to purge with Co2 but I'm fairly certain this isn't oxidation (haven't had oxidised beer to my knowledge but there's neither sherry nor wet cardboard here). It's like Belgian yeast syrup. Maybe it just needed more conditioning? Maybe everything. Bloody fckn complicated Belgian bastards with their tasty fckn complex beers!



> Listen to Him ▲
> 
> Screwy



At this point I'll give anything a shot if I think the adviser knows their stuff.


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## Screwtop (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> I rack for a secondary fermentation -i e 2/3 the way through so it's still actively fermenting. I started doing this a long time ago due to reading about it (thought I'd give it a crack). It's to give the active yeast a chance to continue fermenting while removing the stuff that's done it's dash.



Good thing to do if using real top cropping yeast. Belgian yeast....mmmm ...... NO




manticle said:


> I have a tendency to leave my beers for some time after FG to condition (minimum 5 days but if the weather is cool or I'm busy it will be up to 3 weeks). They then get CC'ed. I know people suggest that it's not necessary with ales but I have noticed a bit of unpleasant yeastiness in some beers I haven't racked. It makes bottling a lot easier too and I don't worry about racking to bulk prime. I know it's a potential infection risk and I have had infections but most beers that get racked come out fine (and better than those I haven't).



Don't stress



manticle said:


> I have no means to purge with Co2 but I'm fairly certain this isn't oxidation (haven't had oxidised beer to my knowledge but there's neither sherry nor wet cardboard here). It's like Belgian yeast syrup. Maybe it just needed more conditioning? Maybe everything. Bloody fckn complicated Belgian bastards with their tasty fckn complex beers!



Bullshit....... Belgians ......... make em simple, fermentation....... let em go. Conditioning..........maybe. 

Peice a piss, this brewing eh!

Screwy


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## Batz (26/6/10)

> My Belgians Are Often Horrible



Perhaps you don't like Belgian style beers, I know that their my least favorite after wheats.
It's all in your own preferences really, some of us like'em some of us don't.

Batz


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## manticle (26/6/10)

I've loved most Belgian beers I've tried since I was about 18/19 (now 35). What I'm failing in is making my own versions taste anything like the ones that inspire me.

I'm going to go away, concentrate on the beers I like that I know I can make well and kock out some consistent ones. When I'm pretty happy with my processes, I'll come back to Belgian land and use some of the above pointers.

@Screwy - deceptively simple yes. I mean complex flavours that I'm struggling to replicate. I've got a few years of brewing left to get things right and get things wrong so you're right - I won't stress.


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## white.grant (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> What I'm failing in is making my own versions taste anything like the ones that inspire me.



You are not alone, and it's why Brother Theodore is on a fast track to sainthood. It aint easy. But it's fun trying!


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## Stuster (26/6/10)

I agree with Screwtop. I think making a very drinkable Belgian doesn't need to be complicated. I think the first thing might be to try making one without racking it. I'm definitely in the ST/bulp camp on this. Removing the beer from the yeast can mean the yeast doesn't clean up after itself as well.

I don't believe that strict temp control is vital but letting the yeast finish is IMO. I think that 37 IBUs is on the high end and I think that might be dropped down a bit too.


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## Thirsty Boy (26/6/10)

I always make lousy belgians too - or at least I used to. I no longer make lousy Belgians by the simple device of _deciding_ not to like the bloody things anymore. Stupid phenolic fruity buggers.... can't understand what I ever saw in them.

Once I am able to pop out a faultless lager at will, when I can whip up a batch of ESB and know it will be great every time - then I might decide I like Belgian beers enough to try and make them again. In the meantime - an occasional batch of saison aside, if I want a dubbel/trippel/golden strong.... I go buy one.

Same as you Manticle - I'll master the Belgian Beast one of these days, in the meantime there is lower hanging fruit to pick on my way to being a good brewer.


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Stuster said:


> I agree with Screwtop. I think making a very drinkable Belgian doesn't need to be complicated. I think the first thing might be to try making one without racking it. I'm definitely in the ST/bulp camp on this. Removing the beer from the yeast can mean the yeast doesn't clean up after itself as well.
> 
> I don't believe that strict temp control is vital but letting the yeast finish is IMO. I think that 37 IBUs is on the high end and I think that might be dropped down a bit too.




37 is for the tripel and is in keeping with style guidelines and suggested levels for things like westmalle. It's mainly the dubbel I'm having trouble with (and which is my favourite commercial beer).

I'll keep the rest in mind though. 

One question: As I'm racking 2/3 - 3/4 through ferment (rather than just at FG for clarity), doesn't the beer have enough yeast left to clean up after itself?

Thanks Thirsty Boy. I feel slightly less retarded now.


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## Stuster (26/6/10)

Possibly you do, manticle. Only one way to find out I guess. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Yeah I'll give leaving it alone a shot. What have I got to lose?


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## bulp (26/6/10)

Batz said:


> Perhaps you don't like Belgian style beers, I know that their my least favorite after wheats.
> It's all in your own preferences really, some of us like'em some of us don't.
> 
> Batz



You don't like Belgians either ? oh the humanity, what are we gunna do with you Batz.


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## MVZOOM (26/6/10)

I've only done one Belgian, a Triple, last year. Still have some in a keg.. it was very easy to make, quite simple, nothing complicated in the process at all. The only thing I had issue with was keeping it warm enough. Good yeast and simple practice produced me a very good beer. 

Maybe just relax, start very simple and see how it goes.


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## michaelcocks (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> My normal process with all ales is ferment to 2/3 - 3/4 way through, rack, reach FG, leave on the yeast 1 week, cold condition 1 week minimum then prime and bottle. I have just bought a 23 litre glass demijohn for bulk longer term ageing of beers (like dubbels, stouts and porters) so maybe I'll give this a crack.
> 
> Alternatively I might just stick with the beers I'm making well, work on really nailing them consistently then think again about moving into belgian territory.
> 
> ...



sorry manticle I was being ironic (and slightly envious ,as I woul never try anything as tough as a Belgian

seriuosly though your description does sound like nearly every belgian (commercial craftbrew or homebrew that I've ever had.... I am sure you can taste the difference, but I haven't tasted one that I realy liked, so your description does sound to me ...well like a belian !! Phenolic, hot alcohol, yeasty ...


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## chadjaja (26/6/10)

I've had great success in the past with extract dark strongs and I've got bottled dubbel now made with dingemans pills, aromatic malt, all noble hops, home made amber candi and abbey II from memory. Fermented quite cool as it was mainly for the father in law who likes them less funky than I do. Its not long in bottle but maybe I can give you a bottle to try and compare. I'm in the northern subs too so should be easy.

I just racked my all grain dark strong and it smelt real promising too. Its just JW ale with some aromatic, dark brown sugar etc with 1214. I racked and hit with c02 as I have the advantage of having keg gas here too. Doing another batch this week of the same brew to bottle so it will be interesting to compared the same recipe both kegged and bottled. 

Planned my trippel too and its not far away from being brewed either. 

I've always just pitched the yeast slurry from my stepped up starter from my stir plate, they always take off pretty quickly but even then in such strong beers I wouldn't think too much of adding a full active starter apart from the fact I brew only 13L batches or so and 2L's of starter is a bit much I think.

If you count saisons in your group I have a hit recipe that turned out one of the best beers I have made although you will need a heat belt and controller to brew it this time of the year.


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## manticle (26/6/10)

chadjaja said:


> Fermented quite cool as it was mainly for the father in law who likes them less funky than I do. Its not long in bottle but maybe I can give you a bottle to try and compare.



Happy to take you up on your kind offer.

Maybe set one aside to age for a bit - I'll swap something but need a bit of conditioning time for a couple of my own brews.


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## chadjaja (26/6/10)

Sure not a problem. 

It was bottled on the 10/4/10

OG 106
FG 1013

20L batch
4.030kg Belg pills
700 caravienne
500g amber candi rocks
80g hall herb (60 I think)
40 st Gold 15 min
mash temp 67

20 degree's first week or so
22-24 second week or so
wyeast 1672 starter pitched yeast slurry only

Simple and not over complicated. A bit thin for my liking but still a decent beer on a cold night. Far from perfect but its a start and I'll keep working on it but I'm not unhappy with it and certainly don't have that yeasty taste you describe.


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Confused about the yeast. 1762?

Cheers


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## chadjaja (26/6/10)

how do you spell dyslexia??

yeah 1762 LOL Too be fair Im a fair way thru a bottle of 2005 GSM with MTV karaoke LOL

Even my notes said the wrong yeast. Can't blame the wine it seems.


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## petesbrew (26/6/10)

Only have skimmed over the responses, but I might suggest a change in yeast strains?


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## Gulpa (27/6/10)

petesbrew said:


> Only have skimmed over the responses, but I might suggest a change in yeast strains?



Pete, I was thinking the same thing. 

Ive only made a handful of belgians, had some successes and failures so Im not an expert. But they are not that hard to make and you shouldnt really have to change your normal processes to make them (except letting the temp run free). Find a yeast that works for your processes rather than the other way round. And use imported malt.

cheers
Andrew.


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## Effect (27/6/10)

im doing 2 belgians soon (maybe three) and all will be with JW malt...do you honestly think there will be a big difference between JW and imported? For me, malt is malt, it isn't like microwave frozen pizza vs wood oven hand made pizza now is it? Many good beers are made with BB and JW malts. I can understand the arguement for imported specialty malts...

I will be putting a bigger emphasis on yeast management for these beers, as I find that will either make or break it.

Cheers
Phil


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## andrewsydes (27/6/10)

petesbrew said:


> Only have skimmed over the responses, but I might suggest a change in yeast strains?



For what it's worth I think this point is key. I've never been 100% pleased with any beers I've made using 3787, while I've been happier with most of mine than you are with yours, I still don't regard them as successes/what I was aiming for. Your description of the profile you don't like in your beer sounds very much like 3787 to me.

I think the reason you'll struggle to get good results with that yeast is the reason that your beer is tasting like a lot of Australian craft brewed attempts. Bare with me... 3787 is pretty subdued IMO compared to other wyeast belgian strains, and quite a few who I've chatted with about it have come to the same conclusion. I know it's a popular choice with Aussie micros for that very reason, it allows them to have a number of belgian beers on the menu and only one belgian yeast. I can think of two off the top of my head. That's not to say it's a bad yeast, obviously does okay in a few Belgian made beers, but yeast will behave differently on a homebrew scale than in a big brewery (think 3724, try making a saison as hot and as fast as brasserie dupont do - it's not going to happen)

So I would say give that yeast a break. The other thing i'd suggest is a second to what screwtop and a couple of others have said and say watch the IBUs. I think one of the key problems with most otherwise well made home brewed belgians (and wheats for that matter) is balance of bitterness. Especially if you keg you have the peace of mind of knowing you can always add a little more IBUs to a keg (isohop - don't judge me  ) But belgians can go woefully wrong with just a little too much bitterness, balance is important blah blah blah you get the point.

It sounds to me however that in this case, the yeast is it.


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## Gulpa (27/6/10)

Phillip said:


> im doing 2 belgians soon (maybe three) and all will be with JW malt...do you honestly think there will be a big difference between JW and imported? For me, malt is malt, it isn't like microwave frozen pizza vs wood oven hand made pizza now is it? Many good beers are made with BB and JW malts. I can understand the arguement for imported specialty malts...
> 
> I will be putting a bigger emphasis on yeast management for these beers, as I find that will either make or break it.
> 
> ...



For me, malt isnt malt. I wouldnt say there is a big difference but there will be a difference. And Im certainly not saying you cant make a good beer JW/BB. With belgians, I really want the malt to shine because there isnt a lot of hops or specialty grain for it to hide behind. I guess it is subjective but I find the continental malts have a subtle complexity that I really like in these beers and I dont get that from domestic malts.

cheers
Andrew.


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## manticle (27/6/10)

Thanks for all the responses guys.

From the responses, it seems to me as if various flavours that make these beers work are just out of balance and balance in all beers is key. I'm going to back away from trying to replicate Westmalle Dubbel and just concentrate on getting a few more basics down pat. Still working on upgrading my system, still learning a hell of a lot just by making errors and working out where I went wrong. Too many people try and run before they can walk.

I'll come back to these lovely, lovely beers but in the meantime I'll focus on what I know I can/should get right. My brewing will only be the better for it.


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## Effect (27/6/10)

gw manticle. I think it takes some balls to start a thread like this, and I'm glad you have got a game plan from it!


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## Swinging Beef (27/6/10)

"Belgians Are Often Horrible"

Perhaps they are actually French, not Belgian... that would explain it.


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## crozdog (27/6/10)

been watching this thread for a couple of days. My thoughts align with what others have said & relate to the cold side ie 
- probably fermenting too cool
- yeast strain selection try another variety (I love 1388)
- possibly racking too early 

My main suggestion would be to try another strain, ensure you have a big healthy starter - consider pitching on the yeast cake after doing a smaller beer

Let us know how you go.


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## petesbrew (28/6/10)

Have only tried a few Belgian yeasts.
T-58 for when I was starting out. Ho hum, but it worked okay.
WLP-500 Just plain awesome. I just bought a new vial on the weekend.
WLP-550 culture off a mate, had 2 bottle bombs in 2 seperate batches, and both were nothing special.
Farmhouse Ale culture off a mate, worked beautifully in a Saison.
Sour Blend, a few drops in each bottle for experimentation. Awesome. This really lifted the character of my Saison and a knk framboise.

Sorry it's a vague response, and my yeast handling isn't the best. So I can't go blaming a certain strain, but it just goes to show how there's so many factors involved in this game


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## hazard (28/6/10)

Screwtop said:


> Peice a piss, this brewing eh!
> 
> Screwy


I've only been doing AG for 12 months and always been afraid to do a big belgian, but this thread has inspired me.

Before AG i messed about with partials and FWKs. I did manage to make a passable dubbel using G&G FWK#4 (no affiliation yadda yadda yadda) and the recipe contained on their web site. Main changes I made were
- I used about a kilo of torrifed wheat, and mashed this with same amount of pilsener malt (why? - because I have read that grist for Chimay Blue is 10% wheat flour). Steeping grains were also added to this mini-mash
- made about 250g of dark candi sugar on the stove and added this to the boil
- used 2 packets of T58.
- and no temperature control was used.

I thought it tasted OK. Some of my more learned friends said they could taste green apples. But i believe that this usually passes with time.


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## mje1980 (28/6/10)

I believe JW export pils is at least as good as wey pils, and the malt flavour is awesome. I wouldn't buy wey pils again. Just my .02c, just using "imported" malt wont miraculously transform your beers. 

Good luck with them mate.


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## sinkas (28/6/10)

I have struggled to make any good beer with the rochefort strain, they all seem very flat flavour profile, and kind of slick. even with all the belg malts and candsugars etc

I have found duvel clones pretty easy with 1388 though


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## raven19 (28/6/10)

manticle said:


> One question: As I'm racking 2/3 - 3/4 through ferment (rather than just at FG for clarity), doesn't the beer have enough yeast left to clean up after itself?



Theoretically yes, but why not leave it on the cake until 1-2 weeks after completion of the ferment?

More yeast then available to help clean up the beer.

(Good thread thus far too).


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## manticle (28/6/10)

It's been suggested by a couple of people who seem to know their Belgians that I should do this so next time I have a crack I will. However it's worked well for me withmost other styles - some I've left in primary and had a slightly unpleasant yeast bite (subtle but present) despite the beer being clear as a bell. Could be overpitching in some instances too. When I moved into extracts and partials I started racking for secondary ferment and noticed an immediate improvement. However at that time I was also changing a few things as my knowledge expanded.

@Sinkas: love rochefort myself (esp. 8) so that is a brewing grail for me. I'm a long way off hitting it. I was considering next time I think Belgian, going for a duvel type so hopefully that one works out.

@mje1980: Agrred. I know some malts do make a difference (not necessarily better or worse - just different) but I'd be surprised if my problems were anything to do with me using JW. Even if more expensive malts could improve the beer, they couldn't hide the yeasty overbalanced stuff I tried to drink a few days ago. If it was as simple as spending a few more bucks, I'd be laughing.

Lots of great info and suggestions in this thread so far.


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## neonmeate (9/7/10)

your recipe looks fine apart from maybe a couple of things i would do differently - obviously not being able to taste it this is just speculation, but these are my thoughts fwiw (and i have brewed a lot of big belgian beers that i've been happy with and that have done well in comps etc)

i would try adding a kilo of munich II to your base if you want something maltier. 

i understand some people choosing to use JW malt out of patriotism, or reverse snobbery, but I think the JW dark crystal in particular is nasty stuff, and I would get rid of it. try limiting the darker malts so that you build up the colour from the bottom. i find belgian dark ales work better when the darkness comes out of lots of 20-60L malts (dark munich, aromatic, cara-amber, caramunich etc) rather than getting the colour out of small amounts of dark malts (although a touch of special B is fine).

i also think dark2 is strong stuff indeed. i'm going to try using dark1 next time. best sugar i've ever used was the rochefort soft brown sugar - unrefined beet sugar - (cassonade brune) - that ross briefly had in stock two years ago. that delicious rochefort rumminess comes from that im convinced.
i would try an all malt beer, or just white sugar for your sugar component, to see whether the sugar is the thing you don't like. try for instance something like the nostradamus grist in BLAM - that's a beautiful rich malty beer, and has no candi sugar - just white sugar, but lots of midrange malts - munich, aromatic, two types of caramalt.

3787 is great stuff, but sometimes can be hit and miss getting the real fresh doughy belgian yeast aroma from it - sometimes it is a bit timid, especially if fermented too cool. actually for some reason ive made better beers with the WL equivalent (530) but that could be coincidence. it does bring out malt better than other yeasts, but depends what you're after. try achouffe yeast (3522) for something really complex and aromatic with lots of "top notes".

stick with it! belgian beer is fun


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## manticle (9/7/10)

Great advice neonmate.

I was thinking of doing a brew along the same lines as you suggest - dropping out or reducing the sugar and upping the malts. I've been following the principles of simple pilsner, tiny spec and dark sugar but I can make very tasty beers using just grains so I might approach it from a different angle. Definitely up for changing the yeast too.

Put the the rest of the D2 syrup in my first kit brew in 2 years (absolute mishmash/hybrid/mongrel of a thing which includes spec malts and a later base grain minimash added in as well as some lactose). At FG and just resting on the yeast and surprisingly tasting really good and the d2 is coming through much more than it did with my dubbel.


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## mje1980 (9/7/10)

Just to add from my other post, i am very happy with JW base malts, but only use Weyermann character malts, ie caramunich, carared, munich and vienna etc. 

I find the JW crystal very harsh. 

Im waiting for summer to brew my 1st belgian, its just too cold. My beers are fermenting around 16c at the moment, probably dropping to 14c overnight.


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