# COMPETITION: Super High Gravity Brewing 2017



## Zorco (8/10/16)

Rev B for final comments all

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High gravity brewing is favoured by many brewers; styles include Russian Imperial Stouts and Barley Wines.

There exists a dimension above these which requires a level of effort, ingredient selection and control that makes for an interesting challenge.

This is the *AHB Super High Gravity Brewing Competition*. Anyone can enter at any time, their submission is to be peer reviewed by a nominated person listed below and all you need to do is brew within The Rules:

The winning submission will be determined by midnight on the 12th of December each year and all results will be posted on this original post. Your submission must be peer reviewed by at least 1 of the nominated reviewers prior to the 12th.



*The Rules:*
1: Qualifying ABV ≥20.00% 
2: Allowable Ingredients:
2.01:- Water
2.02:- Hops
2.03:- Yeast
2.04:- Barley
2.05:- Wheat
2.06:- Rye
2.07:- Oats
2.08:- Glucose
2.09:- [SPARE]
2.10:- Candi Syrup
2.11:- Water Chemistry Salts
2.12:- Brewing Enzymes
2.13:- Yeast Nutrients
2.14:- Clearing agents (Whirfloc etc)
2.15:- Other Flavour and Aroma Ingredients ≤ 0.5 % by total ingredient mass

3: Final Gravity of beer ≤1039
4: NO partial distillation
5: NO pressure reduction on fermenter
6: NO freezing ferment for ethanol separation
7: Any Safe Yeast Strain permissible
8: Malt based fermentables to contribute a minimum of 67% of your beer's final ABV.
9: ABV to be determined by the brewer if possible otherwise reviewer's results will stand as final.
10: [SPARE]
11: Wort must be created and fermented on a non pro system. Use of a commercial system is not allowable.
12: Brewing method to be included with your submission. Your own AHB blog is a good option.
13: The submission must ultimately be recognisable as beer that is intended to be consumed for enjoyment.



*Active participants:*
01: Cosdog
02: Yob
03: Manticle
04: Grainer


*Nominated ABV Reviewers [2017]:*
01: Lyrebird_Cycles [Industry Standard Measurement Technology]
02: 
03:


*Prize Money [2017]:*
$60 for Highest ABV
$40 for Best Beer


*Best Super High Gravity Beer Competition [2017]:*
Following the exceptional achievements of all the participants, a bottle of each participant's beer may be sent for judging by a nominated beer judge. Aging and conditioning periods are up to the discretion of the participant and their beer may be submitted in any of the following years' competitions.


*Results Table [12th December 2017]:*
01:


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## Bribie G (8/10/16)

eis?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/10/16)

I'll volunteer to do the ABV measurements for all participants.

I *think* I've found a way to make the "method of differences" work for beer and I will be doing some validation trials as part of this. It looks like I'll have access to an Anton Paar ALEX 500 for the trials, including some super high gravity brews would be useful.

This means I won't be competing.


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## Yob (8/10/16)

Adjuncts, simple sugars such as dex, Candi Syrup I think should be included, there are definitely benefits in allowing. Should create an allowable ingredients list. 

Adjuncts such as corn and rice I feel should be excluded, aim for mostly barley, water, Hops and yeast (sugars aside) should provide a 'level field'


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I'll volunteer to do the ABV measurements for all participants.
> 
> I *think* I've found a way to make the "method of differences" work for beer and I will be doing some validation trials as part of this. It looks like I'll have access to an Anton Paar ALEX 500 for the trials, including some super high gravity brews would be useful.
> 
> This means I won't be competing.


Edit:

Thanks LC


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## Grainer (8/10/16)

A few initial comments.

1. Having done this before..many times .....maybe you are thinking too high.. these types of beers need 2-3 years to settle out to reach their prime drinkability..maybe try for 15% .. a suggestion.... 15% is still challenging to get right..this should be somewhat drinkable within a year.

Above 20% is a huge investment beer that takes a very long time to ferment out, multiple cultures, feeding regimes etc..that take up to at least 4 months or so before you actually get it to settle in the secondary. If at 15% you may also get more people willing to participate.

Maybe consider 2 ranges.. 15%-20% and a 20%+ category - although I would expect you probably won't see much of the second category.

2. How may people would actually have the facilities or access to a distillation unit, when it can easily be achieved by a dilution in the initial wort, which is also a very sound process to determine OG. People could provide photos of the dilutions if you wish..but I really see no point as regardless I think you have to take peoples word for it as per all competitions. It is better to give them a sound method of quantification that is accessible by all, at least then all beers are measured the same way. Fractional distillation is difficult, time consuming and expensive, unless you are offering this as a service? ..food for thought... (EDIT: when writing this there was only one post!)

3. Eisbock: A simple way to achieve high ABV without really worrying about fermentation.. This is a real easy way to achieve high ABV.. but do you want this as it removes the challenge that you have suggested about fermentability etc.. "There exists a dimension above these which requires a level of effort, ingredient selection and control that makes for an interesting challenge." I take it you are excluding Eisbock from this comment? .. I would agree if you are trying o challenge people Eisbock should be excluded.

4. Brewing Method.. I am doing a 27% Barleywine at the moment the brewing method is about 4 pages long!.. is this practical to include this or better to get the moderators to put up an extra section in the receipes especially for this purpose of Super ABV beers? or perhaps on a personal blog?

5. Enzymes should be allowable, it is a sound method and allows for the much higher beers to ferment out simple sugars.. they also will have different qualities.

6. Adjucts.. I say go to town on that.. what ever you want, provided it is a beer..hmm then what happens when you add honey? It becomes a braggot!

7. Given the huge ABV. I think a 330ml submission is more than enough to judge.

8. If this is in AHB.. "Aussie Home Brewer" I would suggest it must be done by a home brewer.. i.e. not on a commercial system or linked to one.. it should be done in your back yard/shed. If you are commercial it should be done on a home brew the setup and fermented at home etc.. this levels the playing field somewhat. 

9. Unsure why you are asking of evidence that you brewed it given here are very low amounts of these on the market. If you are brewing this type of beer I am sure there are people aware you are doing it. Photos don't do much to be honest..and in a thread you will get a heap of confusing posts that jump between receipes..and when someone actually wants to ry a receipe they will be confused by different threads. Maybe a suggestion is each contestant should run a blog on the beer in their profile?

cheers and good luck.

Edit: comment on #2.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Thanks for plenty of info and ideas Grainer!. Will be definitely taking points on board.

1: I'm looking for feedback on target. No worries
2: Distillation only mentioned for the final beer. Not the wort. Too easy. LC has offered to find a solution for final ABV. OG can be whatever, not constrained.
3: yep, eis already away.
4: Yeah, I was thinking just your brewer's log (maybe 4 pages, didn't have that in mind but cool - a blog is a smarter way to go for sure)
5: In
6: Check
7: Agree, LC will advise I'm sure. I imagined 250ml as that's the volume of my round bottom flask for my lab still
8: And that's right of course. I wasn't sure if that would attract enough home brewers and cast wide to start with. 
9: In my nature and probably perceived as offensive when verification is what I do in my profession, it was automatic. I'm cool if this drops off if others are.

Really appreciate the time you put in to reply. Would you participate in the comp mate?


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## Yob (8/10/16)

John, this is all about +20, started in a different thread but it is what it is, %15 issue not a 'real' challenge. 


We're testing our limits and I dispute it needs to be aged for years to be good.. Sure, it'll develop and meld, I drink %15 RIS from the FV and it's sensational..


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## Grainer (8/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Thanks for plenty of info and ideas Grainer!. Will be definitely taking points on board.
> 
> 1: I'm looking for feedback on target. No worries
> 2: Distillation only mentioned for the final beer. Not the wort. Too easy. LC has offered to find a solution for final ABV. OG can be whatever, not constrained.
> ...


Id consider it.. why not.. but probably wouldn't put in my Barleywine.. every bottle is going under lock and key for about 3 years minimum.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Yob said:


> John, this is all about +20, started in a different thread but it is what it is, %15 issue not a 'real' challenge.
> 
> 
> We're testing our limits and I dispute it needs to be aged for years to be good.. Sure, it'll develop and meld, I drink %15 RIS from the FV and it's sensational..



Yep, that's right about the ABV target. I'm happy to be open while we are annealing the rules to suit the community. 

I would only have my sights on the 20% AVB

This is the thread Yob referred to http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/92530-so-i-fell-asleepduring-a-boil/


I'm going to probably use the wort I've made to get my grounding. The boys here have heaps more high gravity brewing experience than I do so a warm up is a good approach.


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## Grainer (8/10/16)

knew nothing about another thread..all new to me


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Grainer said:


> Id consider it.. why not.. but probably wouldn't put in my Barleywine.. every bottle is going under lock and key for about 3 years minimum.









It isn't about it being ready to drink mate. You and Yob can cancel that chat. This is about skills to ferment. Whatever you submit is scored on ABV!. What you do to make it magic is totally your call!


This is mainly science and brewing control... And a shit tonne of learning (for me!)


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## Grainer (8/10/16)

so the point isn't to brew a nice beer..its just to produce as much alcohol as possible? Or am i missing something?


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## manticle (8/10/16)

Grainer said:


> knew nothing about another thread..all new to me


See "so I fell asleep.....during a boil'


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## Grainer (8/10/16)

Tedious but read it.. to give you an idea the receipe I am working on over the last 4-5 months is a 28% All grain without Eisbock etc.. it is all about yeast health and vitality/resurrection. Im not sure if I will be able to get beyond this so this is my target 27-28%ABV.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Grainer said:


> so the point isn't to brew a nice beer..its just to produce as much alcohol as possible? Or am i missing something?


Yes, in a way. But as I learnt from the boys at the Xmas in July case swap at Winkle's, my barleywine needed age. I immediately brewed an American barleywine and have it under my father in law's house for next year.

I plan to do the same if my super high gravity is ok.


The initial comp is just the ABV.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Grainer said:


> Tedious but read it.. to give you an idea the receipe I am working on over the last 4-5 months is a 28% All grain without Eisbock etc.. it is all about yeast health and vitality/resurrection. Im not sure if I will be able to get beyond this so this is my target 27-28%ABV.


"Tedious"?

That's the way I roll mang! You're absolutely a welcome contender mate. And please share advice along the way!

AHB had a few grumpy exchanges going on and an essence of tedium was a byproduct of the community environment. But the weather has changed at AHB now and top blokes and brewing awesomeness is raging again!

Now where is my lust for beer emoji in the new iPhone update...


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## black_labb (8/10/16)

I think there should be a limit on the amount of adjuncts used. Brewing a 1.050 beer and then constantly feeding it dextrose, yeast nutrients and fresh yeast to get it to 20% is probably going to be an easier method but won't really be in the spirit of the challenge. What about limiting unmashed adjuncts to say 30% max of gravity points?

Edit: Actually, what about a minimum gravity that is achieved from malt. You don't want to reach your unmashed adjunct limit and feel that you could have pumped it up a bit stronger.

I'd be interested in entering the comp but won't. I love a good high gravity belgian or RIS as much if not more than the next brewer but I have enough trouble fitting in time to enjoy my 4-6% beers.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Top ideas here. Yob, Grainer, a percentage constraint on Dex won't devastate your approach to super high gravity?


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## malt junkie (8/10/16)

Oats?


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## manticle (8/10/16)

Isn't a big part of it seeing where yeast can get to?

So regardless of dex % , for example, adjunct/sugar is only going to add so much anyway.


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## MartinOC (8/10/16)

Is the point of this to just achieve stellar ABV through manipulation of fermentation/technique, or a well-balanced beer of high ABV? Seems the former to me. Besides, who wants to drink a beer of that scale? One mouthful & you're done.

Seems like a bit of a wanking contest: "My ABV is bigger than yours..."


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## timmi9191 (8/10/16)

MartinOC said:


> One mouthful & you're done.
> 
> Seems like a bit of a wanking contest: "My ABV is bigger than yours..."


Bahaha..


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## manticle (8/10/16)

Doesn't need to be a wank and anyone that thinks one mouthful ends the relationship has obviously never met glenfarclas.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Rule 13 oral and wank explorers.

This must ultimately be a beer.

A screaming mess of Dex inspired hooch doesn't satisfy, no matter what your investigations into penile comparisons may be.

Dex is in play, but this is beer. I'm asking what a limit on ingredient percentage is right for this.

Edit: I've totally enjoyed my four pints of pale ale so far. The above is said with plenty of jovial gusto and smiles. 

[emoji135]‍[emoji134]‍[emoji136]‍[emoji137]‍

X O R L???


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

To table a value for a (productive and constructive) discussion, let's limit non-grain-malt sugars to say 20-30%.?

http://www.beertutor.com/beers/index.php?t=highest_alcohol


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## Zorco (8/10/16)




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## Zorco (8/10/16)

This category of brewing is a real thing. This competition will test the skills of its participants. It is a very cool endeavour.

It is chemistry; it is biology; it is firmly within the pursuit of brewing excellence.

Help us derive the rules for a good, fair and interesting game.


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## manticle (8/10/16)

I think a restriction on yeast strain makes more sense than a restriction on sugar type.

I'd knock eis-ing out and just see purely what can be done with fermentation.


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## LAGERFRENZY (8/10/16)

Would you be able to analyse if one of the brewers exceeded a 20% dextrose limit. Serious question - if bragging rights are the only outcome to shoot for how can you guarantee that there is not a Lance Armstrong in the race? Sorry if its a dumb question.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

manticle said:


> I think a restriction on yeast strain makes more sense than a restriction on sugar type.
> 
> I'd knock eis-ing out and just see purely what can be done with fermentation.


I think rule 6 has that covered. If I need to understand it better and update the rule let me know.

What sort of yeast restrictions?


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Grainer said:


> Tedious but read it.. to give you an idea the receipe I am working on over the last 4-5 months is a 28% All grain without Eisbock etc.. it is all about yeast health and vitality/resurrection. Im not sure if I will be able to get beyond this so this is my target 27-28%ABV.


So I'm going to beat,...errrr..... get close to that score.

Maybe[emoji53]


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## manticle (8/10/16)

Beer and wine yeast allowed, skip turbo yeast.


Although now I'm not convinced. Let me sleep on it.


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## manticle (8/10/16)

Yes rule six (There is NOOO Rule six) covers it. Just it was mentioned by bribie and I think someone else so I got confused.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Would you be able to analyse if one of the brewers exceeded a 20% dextrose limit. Serious question - if bragging rights are the only outcome to shoot for how can you guarantee that there is not a Lance Armstrong in the race? Sorry if its a dumb question.


So there is that point on quality again, a reoccurring theme in these healthy challenging questions.

I expect that some beers will be ripe after a year, maybe even fresher as per Yob's example. Grainer mentioned 3.

I don't know how to write a rule that imparts a requirement to brew a beer that is aimed to be a 'beer of exceptional quality'.

I kind of planned that participants would organically go for that.

So what if I put up, say, $100 prize money and sponsored this. The ingredients, time, planning, fermentor allocation, dedicated temp control, process expenses, labour, documenting... etc. involved by a participant would quickly render $100 worthless. 

It is my view that the intrinsic motivation of people will make them participate. And consequently there will be an effort to produce a damn fine product. 

A Lance Armstrong in this game would make a ethanol rich liquid without regard for Rule 13.


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## black_labb (8/10/16)

I don't think rice, corn, oats and other starch based adjuncts need to be limited. They don't stray to far from the norm.




manticle said:


> I think a restriction on yeast strain makes more sense than a restriction on sugar type.


Beer by definition is malt derived sugars fermented with yeast. I think there needs to be a certain amount of malt in there to fit the definition of beer. Yeast strain isn't in the definition of beer. Distilling, wine, ale and bread yeasts are essentially the same organism but bred/evolved to suit different situations. While turbo yeast does seem like cheating it is still yeast and not really all that different from any other ale yeast. A ballerina is very different from a body builder but they are both humans at the end of the day.

As I mentioned when I edited my comment, maybe there should be a mimimum amount of malt derived fermentables by gravity as opposed to max percentage of adjunct sugars. It would be a shame to have to stop feeding simple sugars to the ferment just to stay within a specific malt to simple sugar ratio if you've already 1.140 gravity points of malt. Having a beer that is 90% dextrose isn't really in the spirit of the comp in my opinion even if it does use typical beer yeasts.


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## LAGERFRENZY (8/10/16)

No my question was purely about how you might analyse the amount of dext used in a brew not a slag on the Quality vs ABV thing and I apologised if it was a dumb question. Guess that I will never know...


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

But **** it, I'll put $100 towards the winner of the 2017 competition.... if it works out better


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> No my question was purely about how you might analyse the amount of dext used in a brew not a slag on the Quality vs ABV thing and I apologised if it was a dumb question. Guess that I will never know...


Sorry, trying to answer more directly. A Dex only (majorly) brew may have a much lower FG than expected from a malt based version.

Unless the yeast perish from the alcohol leaving unfermented sugar. Not sure after that.


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## LAGERFRENZY (8/10/16)

thanks - i'll butt out of this high-stakes thread now as I have ginger beer to bottle tomorrow and I need to be at my best for that effort and to cheer my buddy on the next day.


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## black_labb (9/10/16)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> No my question was purely about how you might analyse the amount of dext used in a brew not a slag on the Quality vs ABV thing and I apologised if it was a dumb question. Guess that I will never know...


I think there is some degree of honesty required. If you wanted to cheat you would simply add some alcohol via strong spirits which would be even harder to detect than going mostly dextrose.

Were the people entering planning on carbonating their beers? If you really push the yeast to it's last legs there isn't going to enough healthy yeast for bottle carbonation. Was the plan to force carbonate or leave flat?

I'm also curious how effective the alcohol content via hydrometers will end up being. I can imagine that with multiple stages of racking onto fresh yeast and adding sugars there will be certain amounts of losses of volume of the beer and additions of fresh yeast will likely dilute the beer as there will still be residual beer/wort with the yeast. Over a period of time things could become difficult to keep track of.


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## peteru (9/10/16)

I think you would want to encourage creativity and drinkability. Based on that, I would put close to no restrictions on the ingredients, minimal restrictions on the process and high scoring contribution on the quality of the product.

I'd say, any ingredient is OK as long as the result is drinkable and recognisable as a beer. If you think that you are going to get the best results by going 50% amber DME and 50% plum jam, go for it. In the end we may all learn something.

In terms of process, you want to ensure that the alcohol concentration is purely a result of the fermentation process and not as a result of a concentration process, such as _eis_ techniques. If that is the case, ask each entrant to describe the process. If the proposed process is described before being used, the entrants could come to agreement whether what they plan is within the spirit of the competition.

My assumptions here are that this is going to be very much an open book process, so that anyone following can learn things. The travelogue that describes the road to failure will be just as valuable as the winning recipe.

Maybe scale the scores. Drinkability gets a score from 1 (did you just give me a bottle of metho) to 10 (Yummo, Black Damnation) and then multiply the alcohol content above 20% by the drinkability factor and a scaling factor. Add the resulting value to the alcohol content. Such a scoring method would take into account the fact that as you go up in excessive alcohol content, it becomes more challenging to produce good tasting results.


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## Zorco (9/10/16)

peteru said:


> Maybe scale the scores. Drinkability gets a score from 1 (did you just give me a bottle of metho) to 10 (Yummo, Black Damnation) and then multiply the alcohol content above 20% by the drinkability factor and a scaling factor. Add the resulting value to the alcohol content. Such a scoring method would take into account the fact that as you go up in excessive alcohol content, it becomes more challenging to produce good tasting results.


I see the the value in this.

Adding a drinkability criteria item changes the comp from something which is a tangible measurement: Ye old science, to having a subjective element: yum yum....not so good.

Rule 13 is there to ensure that a good beer is made. Honesty is there because - well, just because

I think we run a second layer to the comp which pits the deliciousness of the beers against eachother. A scoring criteria honeymoon that will be! I don't think any two beers will be comparable anyway. But we should.



I think we are getting closer to bedding down the comp rules.


Really appreciate the input from everyone. I hope as many people join the comp!


Cosdog


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## Zorco (10/10/16)

Hi everyone,

I've updated the OP to encompass all that is intended from the competition as well as the suggestions from the community. If there is any final changes or desired updates then please shoot them through. I've added a layer to the competition which will open the door for the beer judging aspect of creating beers like this.


Can we plan to formalise the comp by, say, next Monday 17th October and get this show on the road. 

Can participants give me a nod if you like where the rules are sitting - I'm keen for your buy-in.


Cheers,

Cosdog


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## malt junkie (10/10/16)

you still missed oats as a permissible ingredient I won't jump in this year, but I'll be keeping a keen eye on this as I would love to give this a crack next year, would be nice to get some sponsorship rather than put a hole in your pocket Cd.

Also are you going to put a limit on age for best beer category? Obviously these kinds of beers take a good deal of time to process, and that is over and above the preparation and planning. If this were to become a full on annual or biannual event, to be fair to all contestants beer should be brewed between now and December 2017 and the following comp brewed post dec 2017 or as stipulated (perhaps June July 2017 start date for a Dec 2018 comp).

Thoughts?


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## Zorco (10/10/16)

malt junkie said:


> Thoughts?


Oats in: Check. 

I wanted to respect Grainer's statement of aging for much greater than a year. 3 in that particular case and the only way I could was to allow the participant enter in their beer in any of the following years. I don't know if an age limit will be in the interests of a brewer for beers like this. but I appreciate the point your made as well. 

On the annual nature of this, I'm pretty OK with my wording and think it agrees with what you're said. I'm not as sure about the june/july for the following december as much. That opens the window to an 18 month cycle and keeping track becomes a tiny bit harder. I'm keen to hear what others think as well..

But in any case, for the contenders now, I think we are on our way just about. We have plenty of time to come together and tune the ABV part of the comp to the Best SHG Beer part of the comp. 

If any company takes over my sponsorship offer then by all means. $100 is fairly trivial compared to what each participant would put into their beers - but it is an effort to formalise this as a competition.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (10/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Rev B for final comments all
> 
> 
> 2: Allowable Ingredients:
> ...


Redundant, they're the same thing.


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## Zorco (10/10/16)

Will fix after lunch.

Edit: Done


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## Yob (10/10/16)

11: wort must be created and fermented on a non pro system. Use of a commercial system is not allowable.


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## idzy (10/10/16)

*Active participants:*
01: Cosdog
02: Yob
03: Manticle
04: Grainer
05: Idzy

One clarification, the reviewers say 2017 and the post says 12th December, does that mean 12th December 2017 or is there a typo?


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## Zorco (10/10/16)

No typo mate, the game is that long. I'm going to do a practice run with the wort I accidentally made. Then hone my skills by Easter for the real submission.

If you knock out one faster then please submit. I'm not sure how soon before Lyrebird_Cycles will get hold of his mate ALEX, but soon after that submissions can be scored. 

Everything is easy. Please set up a blog (not sure how yet) so we can follow your efforts.

I'll sort out rule 11 tonight when I get to a computer.


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## Zorco (20/10/16)

I'm asking around about how to start my competition blog for this so any advice welcome.


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## Zorco (20/10/16)

Monday I started my white labs super high gravity on the stirplate. A couple of hundred grams of dme and a shot of O2 and nutrient. She was away.

Response was vigorous and another few hits of O2 and it was raging. Yeast cake has settled after a day not stirring and volume has increased substantially. I'd say 10 times original pitch.

On the second approach I have the English ale yeast cake. It was clean, and super healthy, but my SHG wasn't ready, so I fed the EA a 1062 stout which bloody exploded out the top of my glass carboy then proceeded to fill the fridge with black gunk and it seemed like ferment was done in 2 days. I'll rack it out to a keg tomorrow.

SO! Tomorrow is the day for the main show.

I am going to leave the SHG settle tonight and tomorrow pour off the top liquid -200ml, then agitate till all the yeast is in suspension. I will have the English ale mega cake (3 fights they've been in) and into that I'll pour the SHG slurry.

In will go 8l of wort for what I will expect will be a dazzling exhibition. 24 hours later the rest of what I have got.

O2 using my new stone from Pete and a dash of nutrient.

That's the plan so far.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

The wort is racking!

90mm of yeast cake including the SHG.

Transfer is so incredibly slow. So viscous... but a good outcome, maybe the yeast will commence ferment before being surrounded by wort... 

Like a brilliant intimate experience. Easy, slow and comfortable before the ferocious action happens.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

And this I wasn't expecting, it is more dense than the yeast cake. The yeast is simply floating! I'll agitate from now


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## Zorco (21/10/16)




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## Devhay (21/10/16)

Did you snap any pics in the process?

I'm keen to see how these go!

Edit - Must have gone up as I was posting haha, that colour looks great


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

110ml of wort and 110ml of distilled water. Ok accuracy anyway. Not wanting to mix!


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

1 read 1096 with 100% dilution.

Edit: measurement taken after a few gentle inversions with a stopper and the hydrometer in.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Can I have a verification of OG 1.192 please


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## Mardoo (21/10/16)

Can somebody give the Lord a hanclap! 

Sorry. Been a long week.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

We're into active fermentation already.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Nice and snug, candy and CSR on standby

Set for 18.1,

Currently at 21.2

Edit: got distracted and added all the wort.

This is a practice run anyway.


----------



## Zorco (21/10/16)

Mardoo said:


> Can somebody give the Lord a hanclap!
> 
> Sorry. Been a long week.


Your musical knowledge is unsurpassed Mardoo

This is HANCLAP

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3DwqQvf4U


Fermentation theme music if ever there was!

**** yeah


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## sp0rk (21/10/16)

I'm so tempted to buy a carboy and join in...


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

That would be cool mate.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Estimated ABV if I satisfy rule 3 will be 20.08% which will qualify.

I'm tempted to add sugar before max attenuation is reached from the malt sugars.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Forgot to note that I have a large cake of US05 in the other glass fermenter and it will be complete in 5 days[emoji16].

That will be my first backup cake. The second will be 099 again having taken on another stout.


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## malt junkie (21/10/16)

sp0rk said:


> I'm so tempted to buy a carboy and join in...


You mean a few carboys, I think there'll be several rackings before it's done.


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## Mardoo (21/10/16)

Am I missing something as to why carboys are needed?


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Not needed, I happen to have them and they are cool for seeing the action. My third fermenter is a plastic bucket. 

I think malt junky is right, this could take a few stages.


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Volcanico...... as expected


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

malt junkie said:


> You mean a few carboys, I think there'll be several rackings before it's done.


I have this hunch to maintain fermentation momentum. Like how it is much harder to start from stop when on the hill then to just pedal harder to avoid the stall.

Does this apply to yeast in any way? Should I rack a fermenting brew onto a new cake or wait for activity to slow so I'm maximising the potential of the current yeast?

Appreciate any comments.


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## Mardoo (21/10/16)

I would say wait to see it slowing - absolutely not stopping - and then pitch onto cake


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Your musical knowledge is unsurpassed Mardoo
> 
> This is HANCLAP
> 
> ...



So I tried to give Mardoo's HANCLAP a full listen to....

Now, my wife is a classically trained musician, has a degree in music from the Conservatorium Of Music, and has made a career as a professional music teacher: she was with me for the first 120 seconds and then she started, like, convulsing in stitches of hysteria. I asked her what grade of student would make a song better than that and she said grade 11. 

That's it for HANCLAP for now. 

I'm left disappointed. [emoji85][emoji445]


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## Zorco (21/10/16)

Mardoo said:


> I would say wait to see it slowing - absolutely not stopping - and then pitch onto cake


Cheers, I hope I haven't got the timings wrong with the US05 cake then.


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## Mardoo (21/10/16)

:icon_offtopic: Actually I misspelled handclap. I can't remember whether it was a sample in a Meat Beat Manifesto song, Tackhead Sound System, or a random trip-hop song from the early 90's. I fully disavow both the linked abomination (sorry) and any aspirations towards immense musical knowledge. When you're 50, and have listened to whatever interested you since about age 6, you end up with a pretty open musical mind. Hell, I even like Korn now that I know Yob 

Back on topic, if I were switching yeasts from initial ferment to cake, then I believe I would pitch onto the cake earlier, to avoid any potential negative effects from the yeast colonies trying to dominate each other. However, that's just thinking, and I've never actually experimented with it, so caveat emptor.


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## Zorco (22/10/16)

Ok, cheers Mardoo


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## Yob (22/10/16)

You want to try and keep them active mate, letting them start to finish up and wind down then feeding them again will make them grumpy, the longer you can keep them active the better then switch to cakes when you've maxed them out, at the upper limits of alcohol tolerance you can expect (in my experience) 8-10 points per cake hit..

YMMV


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## malt junkie (22/10/16)

Looks like cosdog will be like most mutts then.



Chasing his tail.


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## Zorco (22/10/16)

I don't follow?

I get chasing tail though...


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## malt junkie (22/10/16)

A brew a week for the next 7-10 weeks just to keep fresh cake upto it. Lots of tail chasing.


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## Coldspace (22/10/16)

Dedication... Hopefully your hard work pays off and pushes past the 20%


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## manticle (22/10/16)

Did this article pop up somewhere in this thread or the first?

https://byo.com/mead/item/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer


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## barls (22/10/16)

ask barry morgan about the light beer at anhc that he was drinking.
it was a 16% 5 year old braggot. if i had entered right it would of made the nationals.
i actually need to brew a new version for next anhc


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## Zorco (24/10/16)

manticle said:


> Did this article pop up somewhere in this thread or the first?
> 
> https://byo.com/mead/item/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer


That was a good read. I like that my approach has some similarities to his. I wish I'd only racked half of the wort in as per my original plan. I've been generous with O2 early on and when I checked this morning fermentation was still progressing nicely.


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## Zorco (24/10/16)

Ferment update, completely consistent ferment rate. Aroma is changing. Colour is getting slightly lighter, but the viscosity is about the same.

I'm starting to wonder if a mega boil is the right approach to a SHG beer. This attempt could fail badly on the FG rule.


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## peteru (24/10/16)

Only one way to find out. And you are firmly on the path. 

Go yeasties, go!


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## Yob (25/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Ferment update, completely consistent ferment rate. Aroma is changing. Colour is getting slightly lighter, but the viscosity is about the same.
> I'm starting to wonder if a mega boil is the right approach to a SHG beer. This attempt could fail badly on the FG rule.


Cake, cake, cake...


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## Yob (25/10/16)

manticle said:


> Did this article pop up somewhere in this thread or the first?
> https://byo.com/mead/item/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer


Quote 
I then added only 1.0 gallon (3.8 L) of OG 1.246 wort to the 1-gallon (3.8-L) starter. I oxygenated the combined wort for 15 minutes with oxygen (O2) and affixed an airlock. For oxygenation, I used a small welding oxygen cylinder I bought just for brewing. If you are using air, you should probably aerate longer.

15 effing minutes?? Dafuq?


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## sp0rk (25/10/16)

Mardoo said:


> Am I missing something as to why carboys are needed?


If I'm aging this for months, I'm not leaving it in plastic to potentially oxidize
Also I want a couple for doing big batches of mead
That or I can just follow Yob's lead and buy the stainless olive tanks


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## malt junkie (25/10/16)

For something like this I'd be going stainless or glass, a conical would be Ideal, as you could dump yeast at will (removable catch jar best) and not have to rack.


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## malt junkie (25/10/16)

A thought popped into my head, what sort of gravity it a kit prior to dilution? and are the same long boil methods used in creating them?


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## sp0rk (25/10/16)

malt junkie said:


> A thought popped into my head, what sort of gravity it a kit prior to dilution? and are the same long boil methods used in creating them?


Kits are created via Vacuum distillation/evaporation
Boiling to reduce that volume would considerably darken the wort and it'd probably taste like burnt toffee
I was thinking, I have an 80L kettle, if I do a 70L batch at 1.060 and boil down to 23L, I should hit 1.182OG
If it ferments out to 1.025, You'd hit 20.61% ABV
I really couldn't be bothered boiling down THAT much, though


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## Zorco (25/10/16)

sp0rk said:


> Kits are created via Vacuum distillation/evaporation
> Boiling to reduce that volume would considerably darken the wort and it'd probably taste like burnt toffee
> I was thinking, I have an 80L kettle, if I do a 70L batch at 1.060 and boil down to 23L, I should hit 1.182OG
> If it ferments out to 1.025, You'd hit 20.61% ABV
> I really couldn't be bothered boiling down THAT much, though


First beers at mash in mate! It takes the bother away [emoji57]


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## sp0rk (25/10/16)

Or I could just do 2 x 35L BIAB batches and boil each down to 23L in my keggle
Add enough hops to hit say 10IBU, just to make sure NCing is safe
Then combine both in the big kettle (at a later date) and boil down to 22L
I'll have to think about this...
Maybe even take a long weekend off from work to do this :beerbang:


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

Fermentation Update Folks. (Thanks for those who are interested)

The activity in the fermenter has slowed now and the manoeuvre to the second cake is all set up. I sanitised my hydrometer and dropped her in. Liquid is showing 1067. Without any prior experience 1192 --> 1067 seems like a reasonable effort. The 099 has had plenty of love and care, lots of O2, nutrient, and a damn good cake to begin with so my initial reaction is that I hoped this gravity would have been lower for a settling gravity.

But the beast which is 099 is equally new to me in this type of application so it just might be having intermission. I rouse up the yeast cake regularly and every time I do I see CO2 bubbles rising in uniformity around the vessel. It has me thinking that while 099 can handle the ethanol levels, it can't invigorate itself up from the cake at the bottom to get the work done. A hunch I have is that I need constant agitation to get this to final. But from my perceptions of what's going on, I think each of the agitations is achieving only 3 points under some sort of 1-e^t function.

The next cake will tell the story. I've asked this question before but the answer was no good. I want to see what the next cake can do before being overcome by the ethanol. Can the yeast metabolise sugar BEFORE cell death from the ethanol? 

A parallel plan is the enzyme game. I'm getting some of this tomorrow
http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/64865/Bioglan-Digest-Eze-40-Capsules


Also, if the 099 can handle 25% ABV, then what are the parameters of my ferment that are not ideal for it to rock on (other than agitation which I've guessed). My mash was low but maybe concentration of non-fermentables will prevent an FG below 1039. SO, this could catch me out where as the main game will be to use a lot more simple sugars... currently I'm where I am with only malt sugars.


That's all for now.

I'm skipping the ginger beer for now lagerfrenzy and kerr. This game has my attention and effort for now.

Cosdog.


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## malt junkie (30/10/16)

I think your confusing the issue. The 099 will live in 20%+ alcohol but the little pitch (by commercial standards) you gave it might not get the job done. I'd be getting another brew on for a second cake of 099, take half a cup of slurry from it for another cake, obviously after this next cake starts to slow.

having your cake and not yet able to eat it! I get the frustration.

was there too much cake in this post?


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

malt junkie said:


> I think your confusing the issue. The 099 will live in 20%+ alcohol but the little pitch (by commercial standards) you gave it might not get the job done.



What do you mean? I ran a starter for the 099 for about a week and the cake grown in the 5L flask was significant. I think I'll check again at pitch rates online. (When you say commercial standards, can you give me some examples? Equations for yeast mass ∝ OG ∝ Volume etc?)


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## malt junkie (30/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> What do you mean? I ran a starter for the 099 for about a week and the cake grown in the 5L flask was significant. I think I'll check again at pitch rates online. (When you say commercial standards, can you give me some examples? Equations for yeast mass ∝ OG ∝ Volume etc?)


simply put it's a huge beer. It'd be like 1 guy trying to please 15 nimphomaniacs, hell you'd do your best, but end of the day you'll run out of steam. pitch big pitch often. And commercial pitch rates are somewhere around double what you or I would do, but in this case it wouldn't really matter, no organism is having a party in 15% alcohol for a prolonged period, so a fresh pitch is the go, however the strain's tolerance to the high ABV will as you pointed out determine bag for buck. I think Yob said some thing like 10 points a cake, this is now the territory your in, 099 I would think would do better than the 10 points.

You got way lower than I thought you would with the initial pitch, remember this is extreme brewing.


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

yeah ok. That's almost helpful.

I'll review pitch rates against OG and wort volume.

If anyone has had direct experience with 099 then by all means let me know what you think of it and how it behaved for your higher gravity worts.


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## Mardoo (30/10/16)

I've experienced 099 chugging along slowly after about 10%abv. I've only taken it up to 15% abv though. It may do just a little bit for a week or so, and then 2 weeks later it's chewed off 25 more points. Occasional agitation helps, but no need at all to do constant agitation.


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

Mardoo said:


> I've experienced 099 chugging along slowly after about 10%abv. I've only taken it up to 15% abv though. It may do just a little bit for a week or so, and then 2 weeks later it's chewed off 25 more points. Occasional agitation helps, but no need at all to do constant agitation.


One of the plan variants I have is to add belgian candi sugar and see if it responds. That may help indicate if the yeast are fine and that the fermentable malt sugars have run out.

What about this idea?


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## LAGERFRENZY (30/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I'm skipping the ginger beer for now lagerfrenzy and kerr. This game has my attention and effort for now.
> 
> Cosdog.


Don't do ginger beer for me or kerr - just do it for your kids. Takes 5 minutes to set up the plant and the kids can feed it each day for you. Multitask Cosdog!


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Equations for yeast mass ∝ OG ∝ Volume etc?)


In commercial practice pitch rate is typically around 106 cells / ml / oP.


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> In commercial practice pitch rate is typically around 106 cells / ml / oP.


Alright, it is time I learnt to speak MHB and LC properly on this.

Why is the standard house terms for OG and FG units 10XX when you lads run with oP. What's the conversion; why use this instead; what's the easy thinking to convert between systems..?


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

So about 7.48x10^11 cells.

Each white labs packet contains at least 75 billion or 7.5 x 10^10 cells 

so I need 10 times the vial. My starter created

using http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

I had 500g of dme in my starter. but I also used 200g of white sugar. In any case, I think I have under pitched by 25-35%. 


Excellent lesson learnt.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/10/16)

The rough conversion is SG of 10xx = xx / 4 oP eg 1040 SG is around 10 oP


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## Zorco (30/10/16)

Why do you prefer Plato ?


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## manticle (30/10/16)

He was a smart man


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## Zorco (31/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> So about 7.48x10^11 cells.
> 
> Each white labs packet contains at least 75 billion or 7.5 x 10^10 cells
> 
> ...


Well, 5 pints of 7% Helles Bock might be to blame... but I have a correction: I racked the wort onto a couple of kilograms of English ale yeast in addition to the 099.

It would have been an over pitch.


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## malt junkie (31/10/16)

Pitch rates don't take into account the hostile environs of super high ABV, and there be the challenge. I wait to see when you bottom out and need enzimes to breakdown the remaining sugars.


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## Zorco (31/10/16)

malt junkie said:


> Pitch rates don't take into account the hostile environs of super high ABV, and there be the challenge. I wait to see when you bottom out and need enzimes to breakdown the remaining sugars.


I'm getting them tonight and will add to the fermenter.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Why do you prefer Plato ?


I think in terms of oP, if someone uses SG I have to convert back to Plato to know what they are talking about. I came into brewing from winemaking and was trained by European brewers, we all worked in oP.

I must admit that it was also taken as something that marked one as a professional, like pronouncing "lauter" and "trub" in German.


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## Zorco (31/10/16)

11 capsules of, dissolved into some warm water; good sanitation practiced.


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## Zorco (31/10/16)

Yeast slowed right down last night. Probably could have added enzyme a couple of days ago.


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## peteru (31/10/16)

In Czech Republic, most beers are referred to by the name of the brewery and the OG in degrees Plato. You'll often find people who prefer an afternoon session of 10oP beer from one brewery and switch to 12oP beer from a different brewery with dinner and into the night.

Using degrees Plato is as natural there for consumers as it is for professionals. "Mow the lawn and have a couple of Budvar 10's, then get stuck into roast duck with Pilsen 12's."


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## malt junkie (1/11/16)

I like it but a westvleteren 12 aint 12 plato rochefort 10 aint 10 plato either. Makes those europeans a very confusing bunch.


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## Yob (1/11/16)

The enzyme I have say to pitch while pitching yeast, it's something to do with not changing them back to simple sugars after they've gotten stuck into the complex sugars, possibly not an issue if you're swapping onto fresh yeast.. Dunno, not incredibly versed on enzyme use


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/11/16)

Yob said:


> The enzyme I have say to pitch while pitching yeast, it's something to do with not changing them back to simple sugars after they've gotten stuck into the complex sugars, possibly not an issue if you're swapping onto fresh yeast.. Dunno, not incredibly versed on enzyme use


It's called catabolite repression: when glucose is above a certain level (about 10 g/l IIRC) the yeast shuts down the transport mechanisms for other sugars. When the glucose runs out there will be another lag phase as it turns them back on.


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## Zorco (1/11/16)

Should I oxygenate again having added enzyme to my original yeasts?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/11/16)

If the yeast is lagging adding some extra oxygen can often help. I am not certain what will happen in your situation, never having done things in this order before.


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## Zorco (1/11/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> If the yeast is lagging adding some extra oxygen can often help. I am not certain what will happen in your situation, never having done things in this order before.


Professional polite speak for


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## Zorco (1/11/16)

:kooi:


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## Zorco (1/11/16)

Well, there is some fermentation happening tonight. Very slow still but an increase nonetheless. I roused up the yeast and a lovely cloud of CO2 was released. I'm still considering that I need to keep the yeast in suspension. I dropped a sanitised stir bar into the fermenter in the hope my home made stir plate could grab it but no joy. Magnetic coupling just too weak. 

I look forward to seeing what's happening tomorrow


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## Zorco (6/11/16)

Yob said:


> Cake, cake, cake...





Cake 2. US-05. Heaps of O2 once transfer is complete.


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## Zorco (18/11/16)

Coming up to two weeks with the new cake and not a lot of action to speak of. Enzyme additions may have helped the wort a little last time but nothing continuing. 

Current Gravity is still high, but I need to drop 30-40 points for this beer to meet Rule 3. There are ways to achieve this still.

What I'm going to try again is the enzyme. They're comparatively expensive as far as brewing ingredients go, but I'll dose up again.

I have my next White Labs SHG yeast with Hoppy Day and will pickup tonight/tomorrow. Then I'll ferment a big Stout with it and make the cake.

MAKE THE CAKE!!! 

Cheers all

Tis nearly Christmas time...go get your shopping done


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## Coldspace (19/11/16)

That beast will really rock your taste buds... And your head lol


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## Zorco (17/2/17)

So WTF,

Months now in the fermenter and she is still stagnate. Enzyme tablets - lots and expensive - have had their time to operate on their starch. 

Three days ago I racked again onto a ridiculously healthy cake of white labs SHG and US05..... It was in my kegmenter after the pale ale madpierre shouted me.

Air lock shut, and after three days I intended to vent....ANYTHING, but zilch.


Are the enzymes not breaking down the long chains? Do I go Brett? Do I dilute and retain the substantial ethanol fraction I have for further SHG ambition.

Why does a wort of mammoth gravity not come down to ethanol with enzyme and time and yeast which is in spec.

I know that I don't know, but absolutely no response from this transfer has a question. Any answers or ideas welcome.


BTW, I'm totally fine restarting, but experience with this science is sought after.

Zorco


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

Update. That big healthy cake of US05 and White Labs 099 in the kegmenter and away it goes again. You beauty.

Hope this keeps going. Will try and take a specific gravity measurement this weekend


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## peteru (1/3/17)

There's most of the year to go still, so even at this pace, you might be tracking OK.

Keep at it and good luck to you and your yeasties. :icon_cheers:


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## Mardoo (1/3/17)

Zorco, is that the same cake as in the 17/2 post? I've sometimes found 099 to be a slow starter when added fresh, late into an HG ferment.


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

Yes Mardoo, I did remember your advice.

Burped the kegmenter again this morning and consistent progress. The aroma is changing too. Fermentation by my thinking.

I wonder if the enzyme had been working away for the past few months and now the yeast, after a time, got into gear.


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## bradsbrew (1/3/17)

Zorco said:


> I wonder if the enzyme had been working away for the past few months and now the yeast, after a time, got into gear.


Wild Yeast has found it's way in?


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

Very possible. In the pale ale in the kegmenter prior there was a tiny funk that developed in the keg after I racked. I think the kegmenter or racking gear might have had an intruder. But maybe the keg only

Can wild yeasts survive >13-15% alcohol concentration as well as something intended for that range?


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## Mardoo (1/3/17)

bradsbrew said:


> Wild Yeast has found it's way in?


Not impossible, but I've had a major lag with late-addition 099 in a number of high gravity beers. They've all aged well with no signs of off flavours or flavour degradation with over-carbonation.


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

And the aroma from the kegmenter venting smells strong and untainted.

My vote is lag on 099


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

I'm getting slightly excited that this will turn out... imagine a 21% beer from only yeast.


Home brewed

From a mistake.


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## Zorco (4/3/17)

DEFINITELY FERMENTATION.

Gravity down to 1038. And it smells incredible....


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## Zorco (25/3/17)

A little update,

I've been burping the kegmenter all month and I'm pretty impressed that 099 has been in battle all the while. This week there has been a noticeable reduction of gas production. Still smells excellent.

Maybe a guess that it will be over by tuesday-wednesday. We will see what the gravity is....


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## Zorco (26/3/17)

1029.... smells and tastes like beer.

LyrebirdC, I'm interested in a reading in the coming month or so. Is timing ok?


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## Zorco (28/3/17)

Yeah, well I should have known better.....

This is some nuclear decay action. I'd better aim for a horizon of May before this puppy is complete.

I'm calling it I reckon; this will be my only entry this year.


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## Mardoo (28/3/17)

You mean it's still going, or you drank too much?


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## manticle (29/3/17)

I think he means ham is a nice medium


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## Zorco (14/4/17)

Ferment still going, has burps every day. Slow and steady is winning this race...

With absence of any competitors anyway. [emoji18]


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## Mardoo (14/4/17)

It's kind of nice when you can stretch your arms in a thread, really take a breath and feel the landscape and the breeze, yaknow?


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## Zorco (14/4/17)

Stretching arms..??

This is the internet, you're all virtual people who I'll never know and are a construct of the non real

Yesterday me drunk on beer realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.  Here's Yob with the Dealz.


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## Zorco (17/4/17)

1027 approx

Meniscus climbs two points on my hydro.


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## malt junkie (17/4/17)

So your at 21.6% ABV calculated, has it completely stopped? I mean after enzime and lots of yeasties what's the chance of it going lower once bottled? And are you going to carb?


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## Zorco (17/4/17)

I don't think it is completely over yet; small amounts of gas still being produced.

I'm not sure about the bottling stage and when to go ahead. As there is sugar available and the yeast is specified to 25% my preference is to wait till it's stopped for a week.

I'd like to carb and even age a few bottles for a year or two. I won't carb my submission to LC or the litre I test myself with simple distillation.

Drank the 200ml in the cylinder while watching 260rips this arvo, pretty good.


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## Zorco (4/6/17)

Ferment completed. Still 1027 and no more gas from the kegmenter for 3 days now. 

Submission prepared, corny filled about 60%.

Wife calls it a beer liqueur; Rich and relatively smooth. I think sipping the 250ml from the sample will be sufficient for today. It certainly attracts flies fast - not sure how to rate that feature.


Now, to age this bad boy.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/6/17)

Zorco said:


> LyrebirdC, I'm interested in a reading in the coming month or so. Is timing ok?


Wasn't then, is now. That being said, I've lost access to the Anton Paar machine (it was at a brewery run by an old associate, he's moved on).

I can do an alcohol by distillation and hydrometery but the alcohol hydrometers I have are the large lab grade units so it requires a large sample: 500ml minimum.

I can do the "method of differences" on a smaller sample: I just bought an Anton Paar DMA 35 from a surplus dealer, assuming I can get it going again I'll only need 20 ml or so.


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## Zorco (29/12/17)

Alright two days to go and she's all over......

So far one sample has been brewed which will lead to two outcomes....

The sample meets all the rules and I win, handing myself the prize money, OR it fails and the money stays where it is...--> wife's account.


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## manticle (29/12/17)

Sorry zorco - dropped the ball on this one. Still interested but I sense failure on my part till I have an O2 setup. Either brewman or LC when he goes live with his device.

Been on my list for a while, life keeps getting in the way.


----------

