# Safale: S-04, strikes again!



## damoninja

Hi all. 

I love my S04, I've used it in a few darker brews now and it makes a yummy beer.

But does anyone else find it flops and give up at a magical number of 1.020 regardless of OG / fermentables? 3 brews now using S04, all different packets / batches / expiries... 

Every calc I've used for every one of these brews reckons it should have gone down to 1.013, 1.017 etc but noooo S04 says up yours I'm quitting. 

Not really complaining though, the sample I just took was delicious :icon_drool2:


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## GalBrew

I did, every time at 1.020. Until I started oxygenating the wort. Now I get it down to around 1.012.


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## wide eyed and legless

I use it most of the time and don't have a problem with it, are you putting the correct amount into the fermenter?


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## contrarian

I've had it happen a few times but normally a swirl of the fermenter and bumping the temp up a few degrees gets it going again.


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## schoey

Are you rehydrating before pitching? I've used it probably a dozen times and the 2 times I didn't rehydrate it the beer under-attenuated. Good oxygenation helps too.


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## AndrewQLD

That's happened once or twice to me, it's a heavily flocculating yeast so I just gave it a gentle stir and it always finished off as expected.


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## Not For Horses

Had a brew get down to 1004 with a lower mash temp. Consistently gets to 1012ish for most beers I use it in.
Even had it get one of my ciders down to 998 from 1050.
Oxy schedule consists of pouring wort from a height into the FV.
Combination of rehydration and chucking the dry yeast straight in.


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## Rubix

Just brewed a pale ale on Wednesday night that I'm fermenting with S-04. OG was 1.045 and it's already down to 1.013. Mashed at 64*c, no re hydration and the only o2 addition came from letting it fall in the FV from the chiller. I'm fermenting a little warmer than normal though as I've got a Saison sitting beside it in the fridge. The heating gear is set to 23*c on the saison and I'm just using the radiant heat from that to heat the fridge (about 21/22*c)


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## RelaxedBrewer

I find so4 to be very temperature dependent. It does not like any drops in temperature.

The way I have used it without any problems (like the famous quitting at 1.020) it ti pitch it cool and the slowly raise the fermentation temperature after 2 days. I try to raise it 1C a day.

When I have baby sat it like this it has preformed really well.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Had mine in the Hot Water System cupboard, as it's Tassie and rehydrated.

Got down to 1.009.


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## damoninja

Thanks all

I always oxygenate the crap outta my brews first when pouring from cube second I smash it with a thing on a drill. 
Tried the swish a few times, made no diff before. 

I don't rehydrate, the fermentis instructions are conflicting the packet says pitch into wort the fact sheet says rehydrate. I have no worries with it kicking off, has krausen in 12 hours usually. 

Temp may be the deal, I've done 1 at 17C and the other 2 at 19C so I might give it the swirl and increase the temp over a day or so. 
I usually pitch at my desired fermentation temp by placing the cube in the fridge for 24 hours before transferring and pitching.


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## damoninja

Surprise surprise, again with the stuck fermentation. 
*Brewing this: *
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77770-brewing-an-imperial-epic-boil-times/

*Important bits: *
Actual OG 1.100
Predicted FG 1.027

Pitched at 20 degrees, brewed at 18 degrees.

Actual SG after 7 days, 1.042
Swirled it and checked 24hrs later, about the same. 

I used about 150mL (as per Mr Malty) of the yeast that I'd harvested from the previous brew in this thread and it took off within about 12-18 hours with a nice thick layer of foam which stayed there for about 6 days then died off. 

I'm not worried about this finishing quick as I plan to leave it quite a while, but I really don't want it to finish THAT high...

If a daily swirl doesn't do the trick, should I pitch another thing of yeast? I've got 4 jars of it in the fridge and they're only 8 days old.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Might want to try Nottingham.

If you're doing a 1.100 beer (that's a big 'un), you really probably should have doubled the amount of yeast over and above the usual 1.040-1.055 OG beer. Did you pitch enough?

Maybe ramp up the temp a little and then rouse.

I'm going to try the M79 Morgan's craft series in a EPA (I think), and if this works out, I'll post results of it.


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## damoninja

According to Mr Malty I did, I pitched 150mL of the thick yeast slurry. 

I didn't want to use a nottingham or US05 because it would have been a bit dry for the style I want. 

I'd be happy if I can get it down another 10 points which I don't think is a huge ask considering it "should" go down to about 1.027


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## RelaxedBrewer

I don't think reusing a yeast that has had stuck fermentation issues before is a good idea.

I am not a yeast expert and am not sure if it is a trait that will be transferred from generation to to generation, but why risk it.

I only reuse yeast from a fermentation that I am completely happy with and would suggest that you do the same.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Forget the calculators would be my best advice, 150mL seems like an underpitch to me for that beer, I'd be going between 1-2cups (250-500mL) worth of harvested slurry. 3/4 to 1cup of yeast slurry is what I aim for with a "normal" ale (1.043 - 1.050).

"Thick" and "Thin" is subjective and thus throws the validity of the calculator out. Rule of thumb prevails!

EDIT: To add to what RelaxedBrewer suggests, perhaps you could build a starter with a low gravity wort (~1.030) to grow as much yeast as you like by stepping it up if you want to stick with the harvested stuff. Not too sure about traits would carry over if you step built a starter out of it. I have experienced nothing but increasing performance out of the same yeast through generations and building starters each time.


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## damoninja

The jars that have settled in the fridge have 150mL of yeast that has settled to the bottom, I pitched a full one of these (300mL) before it had settled and it took off in no time, had foam for 6 days then bam - stopped. 

I haven't got anything to make another starer with now, would it work if I used a few 100mL of the wort that's currently in the fermenter? 

Or

I've got 4 jars in the fridge, would it be OK to re-pitch 1 or more of these?


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## malt_shovel

Hi there,

Just a quick observation that this brew has 25% LDME of which the amount of fermentables is set during manufacturing to god knows what, but could guess around 70%. Add to that a further ~25% roast / crystal malt, and some flaked barley to boot and I would be pretty darn happy with 1.026 as FG. If you think it is a pooped out yeast, then using some of the high alcoholic beer in the fermenter to rehydrate / build a starter won't work. Also tossing in some that have been rinsed and chilled will likely not work either. It is too hostile an environment. If it were me, I would check your balance value (no IBU's in your recipe linked) against what the style would suggest, and leave it to condition for a while.

1.026 on such a big beer sounds about right to me, particularly with the amount of spec malts in there.

Cheers

Edit: Sorry, got it wrong, you are at 1.042.....

So if it is pooped out yeast, then you need to get some fresh and ACTIVE yeast in there. I don't think using the rinsed yeast will do anything at this stage. I recently mashed WAAAAY high on an IPA and had it stall at 1.040. Fresh yeast did nothing, all the fermentables were used up. Hang on until you can get an active starter going (I wouldn't expect using the current fermenting beer to be a good way to make a starter, though I have never tried it before) to check it is yeast health.

Cheers


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## damoninja

Ok so I have 2 options in regard getting ingredients for a starter: 

1. Wait until Friday when I can have stuff delivered at a reasonable cost. 
2. Visit LHBS (only one I can get to before closing time) and pay $9 for 500g LDME. 

Will an extra couple of days sitting there half fermented hurt it any?


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Just wait, it won't hurt it at all providing your glad wrap airlock/lid is well sealed.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nope, won't hurt. 

I've left a Saison on the yeast for over 3 months (not that I'm advising it as best practice). Because I'm anal about sanitising (and probably a slab of luck), I bottled it last week without any infection issues.

A couple of days won't hurt.


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## damoninja

Thought as much, the gladwrap is sealed with the rubber ring and I haven't opened it at all so it's full of CO2. 

in the meantime I'll give 'er the old swirl in the morning's and nights and see if it helps over a few days.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

You can also sing to it, probably won't do anything. But you will feel all the better :beer:


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## Ross

You've not mentioned (that i can see) what temperature you mashed the grains at? That said, looking at the malt bill & the yeast used, 1042 doesn't surprise me at all.
Not sure why you think Nottingham or US-05 will give you too dry a beer, they are both a much better choice than SO-4 for the attenuation you are seeking & there's no way either are going to make an all malt 1.100 beer too dry. Depending on mash temps, you might struggle to get much lower anyway, but I'd try making a small starter with some Nott or US-05, warm the brew up to 23c & pitch the active starter into it.


Cheers Ross


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## damoninja

I considered the amount of malt I was using and mashed at 64.

Never considered throwing in a different type of yeast, are there any adverse affects to doing this?


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## damoninja

I left the door on my fridge slightly ajar for a little and changed the controller temp to 23, by about 10pm it was well and truly there. 

When I went to give it a light shake I found that it's bubbling again and has got positive pressure raising the glad wrap which was still there this morning. 

Looks like the temp increase might have given it a kick up the ass.


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## Sea_Eagle

An increase in temp will cause more dissolved gas to come out of solution, that may be what you are noticing.
I'm by no means an expert.


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## damoninja

Sea_Eagle said:


> An increase in temp will cause more dissolved gas to come out of solution, that may be what you are noticing.
> I'm by no means an expert.


Yeah I thought of this, when I've raised temps before I haven't really noticed anything, especially when the temp's been raised for 12+ hours. 

I'll see how things are looking this arvo.


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## damoninja

Lost 2 points ;/

US-05 this weekend it is!


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## fletcher

damoninja said:


> Lost 2 points ;/
> 
> US-05 this weekend it is!


in response to what you asked before, adding us-05 or a neutral yeast won't affect the flavour and esters as the bulk of ferment was done with the previous yeast. only thing i've ever had with adding us-05 to finish it off was a more subdued hop note to the beer. it was an english ipa.


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## damoninja

Cheers fletcher - I've got some US-05 on hand but no malt for it to eat!


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## fletcher

damoninja said:


> Cheers fletcher - I've got some US-05 on hand but no malt for it to eat!


for a starter? do you have a popper/juice box? use that, it's about 1.040ish

EDIT: with no preservs, added sugar and shit obviously 

grab one cheap and use that instead. works a treat. chill and decant when done and then pitch slurry


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## damoninja

fletcher said:


> for a starter? do you have a popper/juice box? use that, it's about 1.040ish
> 
> EDIT: with no preservs, added sugar and shit obviously
> 
> grab one cheap and use that instead. works a treat. chill and decant when done and then pitch slurry


Nah mate, no juice on hand either... I've got is some apples I'm turning in to apple cider vinegar, somehow I don't think I want this in my beer :blink:


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## fletcher

late night 7-11 run? haha

all good mate, just trying to brainstorm for ya  someone on here once gave me that great tip. it's perfect for starters - obviously you wouldn't want the juice in the beer but for a later-decanted and pitched starter..perfect!


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## damoninja

I'll certainly keep it in mind, I've been working all evening else might have ducked out to the IGA...

I'll be out and about tomorrow night might get a chance to get things going but I'll have other stuff being delivered on Friday anyways so I'll have plenty of malty goodness if I don't get to it tomorrow.


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## Black Devil Dog

Thought I'd re-activate this thread than start another one.


I've just started drinking a batch in which I used S-04 for the first time and I'm finding that the batch is completely lacking in hop bitterness and flavour. 

It's meant to have 51 IBUs, but it would be lucky to have 1.

During ferment it went off like a bomb, very vigorous with krausen leaking out from under the glad wrap. Once fermentation had slowed, I replaced the glad wrap with some clean stuff. It's possible that I've introduced an infection, but I wouldn't have thought so.

I've just come of a keg of wheat beer, so taste buds should be picking up the bitterness. 

Is it possible that S-04 is stripping the hop flavours and bitterness?


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## Dan Pratt

^ I just used a S04 in a IPA to get more fruity ester and hop character from the beer and it came through. Have been using US05 for most of those style and will soon be trying liquid WLP002 to see how that fares. Stone brewing and Brewdog to name a couple of high quality brewery's from abroad use English strains to get the bitterness and hop character to come through aswell and they have perfected it.

What was your OG, IBU and hop schedule like?


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## Black Devil Dog

OG 1053
FG 1008

Ingredients:
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Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
3.75 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) ( Grain 1 60.8 % 
1.00 kg Munich 1 Malt (Weyermann) (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 16.2 % 
0.60 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 Grain 3 9.7 % 
0.50 kg Caramunich 1 Malt (Weyermann) (110.3 EBC Grain 4 8.1 % 
0.20 kg Cara-Pils Malt (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 5 3.2 % 
0.12 kg Acid Malt (5.9 EBC) Grain 6 1.9 % 
35.00 g Fuggles [3.52 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 7 13.9 IBUs 
30.00 g Pride of Ringwood [5.80 %] - First Wort Hop 8 19.6 IBUs 
20.00 g Fuggles [4.98 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 9 7.9 IBUs 
20.00 g Styrian Goldings [3.80 %] - Boil 30.0 mi Hop 10 6.0 IBUs 
10.00 g Fuggles [4.98 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 1.9 IBUs 
10.00 g Styrian Goldings [4.80 %] - Boil 10.0 mi Hop 12 1.8 IBUs 
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast 13 - 




Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Protein Add 35.83 l of water at 55.3 C 53.0 C 5 min 
Sacc Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 63.0 C 63.0 C 45 min 
Sacc Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 72.0 C 72.0 C 15 min 
Mash Out Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 78.0 C 78.0 C 15 min 



Another thing is that it's not very clear, I always thought S-04 was high flocculating. i often use gelatin to clear my beers, but didn't worry about it this time. I C.C'd for about 2-3 weeks. 

Pour my first beer and it's cloudy and then lacks the hop backbone I was after.


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## Dan Pratt

Do you normally FWH ? I recently used it on a IPA and used columbus to 35ibu and it was very rounded compared to usual boil additions of that hop. However the 30m addition should have seen some sharper bitterness.... did you adjust your water with Gypsum ? ( not sure if you do that ) 

My SO4 floculated great and it was a bit concerning as I'm so used to US05 having around for a few more days but I went on to dry hop it heavy and its now a hop hazed beer, Id go ahead with the Gelatine as per normal.

Its hard to say if its the yeast that has affected the bitterness outcome, maybe someone that has used S04 like a religion can advise.


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## Black Devil Dog

Thanks Pratty, I FWH pretty much all my beers now, I've done 60min etc, but I've settled on FWH as my default bittering. I like the mellow bittering effect it (usually) has on my beer. 

I don't adjust with gypsum, actually, I don't do any water adjustments, other than Acid malt. 

The beer tastes quite ok, it's just very malt forward and that's not what I was expecting.


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## Pogierob

I will never use 04 again. I have lost three batches to it. 
Granted I know a hell of a lot more now than back then but thrice bitten. ......


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## Dan Pratt

Black Devil Dog said:


> Thanks Pratty, I FWH pretty much all my beers now, I've done 60min etc, but I've settled on FWH as my default bittering. I like the mellow bittering effect it (usually) has on my beer.
> 
> I don't adjust with gypsum, actually, I don't do any water adjustments, other than Acid malt.
> 
> The beer tastes quite ok, it's just very malt forward and that's not what I was expecting.


It's possible your water was higher in chloride than normal and the malt was bought forward. You should look into the water to see the ppm for the 6main minerals. My water already has a great balance of 35ppm of sulphate and chloride which is great for my wheats and dark beers, but when it come to lighter beers and hoppy beers they need to be adjusted.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Yeah, not happy with S04. Windsor, M79 are better as far as dry yeasts go.

But..... it mightn't be the yeast but water.

I'd been having problems with the right bitterness and hoppiness in my beers. Got a copy of the local water profile, some brewing salts and quickly solved the problem.


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## Black Devil Dog

Cheers for the tips on water, It looks as though it's an area of my brewing that can't be ignored any more.


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## Markbeer

I always had probs with S04 attenuation.

Now I pitch big, aerate and warm it up thru the ferment.

Had a RIS go from 1115 to 1030 in 3 days.


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## contrarian

I use s04 a bit and really like it as a yeast, it does drop out a bit prematurely at times but a good swirl and a bump in temperature has always got it to finish the job for me.


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## stakka82

Yeah have been in and out of love with s04 but at the end if the day it is a solid yeast if using in the right styles


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I was using S04 for british beers.

But I find its profile too mellow for it. M79 does that for me - gives me a good profile to my tastes.

If I want something a bit more reliable - Notto will do it for me and quicker.

If I want something less attenuative - Windsor.


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## dago001

I brewed an Pale Ale with it the other week. It was more of an APA than anything else. Turned out pretty good. Didnt do any water adjustments, in fact I didnt use any additives at all as I have run out of brewbrite.
I normally pitch 2 or 3 packs per 36 litres, then half the yeast cake and ferment another brew on the cake.
Cheers
LB


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## Not For Horses

What temps do people use S04 at?
In my experience, anything less than 20 is not ideal. 22 is about where you need to be.
It is a great yeast once you know how to use it. Especially for malty amber ale, brown ale or stout.


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## dago001

I brewed my Pale at about 16 deg, which is the temp in the kitchen. I havent used it for a brown ale for a while, but the last one would have been around 18 deg and didnt have any issues with it. I have gone from not liking it, to be comfortable with it, which may be more to do with improving my rig and process, more than the yeast. However, as I said before, I always pitch more than recommended, so that may be the real answer here. Doing the same with S23 atm, which is a yeast I said I would never use again, so it will be interesting to see the results.
Cheers
LB


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## Vini2ton

I reckon that Irish Ale wyeast is a cracker for high gravity beers. Also a raft of liquids that far surpass 04 for what you are doing. Ringwood Notto !968 1028 have all been good to me.


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## TimL

Saf 04 can't be too bad a yeast as the majority of english micros either use it or notty according to jims beer kit,just drinking a beautiful dry stout i made with it now,always rehydrate and haven't had attenuation problems with it for years,great in dark beers


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## Weizguy

Rob.P said:


> I will never use 04 again. I have lost three batches to it.
> Granted I know a hell of a lot more now than back then but thrice bitten. ......


I hear that a poor tradesman blames his tools.

Or, there are no bad yeasts, just bad brewers.

Maybe it was a bad batch of S-04?


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## black_labb

Les the Weizguy said:


> I hear that a poor tradesman blames his tools.


Some tools require superior skills to be used effectively. Highly flocculant yeasts tend to drop out before FG if yeast health isn't great where less flocculant yeasts are more forgiving. That's why US05 is known the be more forgiving than S04.

I find that I am often quite lazy when it comes to handling dry yeast where I put more effort into liquid yeast. I 'll just chuck to dry in and expect perfect results where the liquid I'll do a few batches with the same yeast to get my moneys worth and as a consequence I'll do as "starter" of 1-2L in the fermenter 12 hours before pitching (from the cube so timing isn't an issue).



Vini2ton said:


> I reckon that Irish Ale wyeast is a cracker for high gravity beers. Also a raft of liquids that far surpass 04 for what you are doing. Ringwood Notto !968 1028 have all been good to me.


so4 is the dry version of 1968 if I'm correct.


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## Vini2ton

Heard said that so4 is whitbread, but then again I hear a lot of things. Never used whitbread, but have used so4 and 1968.


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## black_labb

Vini2ton said:


> Heard said that so4 is whitbread, but then again I hear a lot of things. Never used whitbread, but have used so4 and 1968.


Just did a search and you seem to be right. I don't know where I got the 1968 and S04 being the same from.


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## Vini2ton

black_labb said:


> Just did a search and you seem to be right. I don't know where I got the 1968 and S04 being the same from.


I want to get some whitbread now and see what it does. Most of those pommie yeasts just need a damn good thrashing.


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## Markbeer

I have always used it at 18 or less.

What esters do you get from it at 22 degrees?

Considering a brown fermented high.



Not For Horses said:


> What temps do people use S04 at?
> In my experience, anything less than 20 is not ideal. 22 is about where you need to be.
> It is a great yeast once you know how to use it. Especially for malty amber ale, brown ale or stout.


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## nala

I have only used this yeast for the past 8 years, I find that having now brewed in excess of 100 brews and never experienced a bad or under attenuated beer with this yeast I would ask myself if the problem is something else.
The instructions on the package does not require or recommend rehydrating. If you are doing something other than what is recommended by the manufacturer then you can only blame yourself and not the yeast. 
I sometimes smile to myself when I read about the brewers who criticize a yeast and draw comparisons with other yeasts which are considered better, probably because they are more expensive and have never done a side by side comparison.
If there was a challenge to find the best overall performing yeast, SO 4 would win hands down...no affiliation !!


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## peekaboo_jones

Rookie brewer here.
Just adding my latest, second batch ever is bottle conditioning now. 
I experimented with a kit n kilo, Bavarian lager kit split in half but I swapped the yeast for S-04 and chucked in 500g dark malt extract also, filled to 8L instead of 11.5L.
OG 1064
FG 1021
3 weeks at room temp in Melbourne but really it finished late week 2 but inexperienced I thought it would drop similar to other usual standard kits, i.e 1010ish...
All good though, every hydro sample tasted really good! Now bottled and should be carb'd up next weekend


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## AJ80

I'd be careful with those bottles, FG of 1.021 sounds high for a kit beer. It's not been the warmest in melbs and the yeast may have stalled (this strain is notorious for this). With warm weather coming back next week, I'm a little worried fermentation could kick off again in the bottles...maybe keep them under a heavy blanket as a fail safe? How long was the FG stable for before bottling?

Hope it's just me being paranoid for your sake, but better to be safe than sorry!


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## peekaboo_jones

Thanks AJ80, that's a bugger!
I too thought it was high, kept it in the laundry at 24deg for the last week hoping to lower it, before that in a wardrobe at 18deg. FG was stable for 6 days I think
Best to lock these monsters away for a few weeks just to be safe!

Is it a good idea to pitch two packets of yeast generally?


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## AJ80

You never know, it may have finished, but I'd say it stalled. I'd recommend drinking sooner rather than later - if the bottles start to gush at opening try and stick the whole batch in the fridge.

amount of yeast to pitch really depends on your OG and volume - there are some pretty handy online calculators (Mr Malty, etc) which will help you target your exact pitch rate.

It happens mate, a few of my early brews were bottled early and ended up overcarbed.


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