# Crab Apple Cider



## Airgead (4/4/09)

Folks

I have a large crab apple tree.





For the last few months it has been covered witr hundreds of lovely looking crab apples - 




My intention was to make a crab apple cider. Not 100% crab apple, I think that would be too tart. I was thinking maybe 10-20% with granny smith to make up the bulk. The first job though was to juice the crab apples. Thanks to the overwhelming generosity of the federal government, I now own a rather nice cold press juicing machine. Today I decided that the time was right and I'd give the machine a try.

First job - pick the apples. 20 minutes later I had a 10l bucket of crab apples and a tree that still had 2/3 of the apples on it. I figured that 10l of fruit was enough to give the machine a try so I've left the rest of the apples on the tree for now. Here's what 10l of crab apples looks like - 




And off to the juicer. The machine performed beautifully. It grinds them up cores, stems and all and extracts a huge amount of juice. Here's the juice straight out of the juicer - 




Pretty cloudy but after letting it sit for a few minutes - 




Lovely. Checked with the hydrometer and its a shade under 1050. I wasn't expecting a juge amount of juice. Crab apples aren't exactly known for their juiciness. I was expecting maybe 1-2l but after the pulp had settled, I had 3l of juice and another 2l of pulpy stuff. I treated the pulp with pectinainse and it looks to be dropping out a good bit more clear juice. I'll let it sit overnight but by the end I will probably have 4-4 1/2l. 




Its beautiful stuff. Tart, tannic. I'm thinking 4-5l in with 20l of granny smith juice and I'll have a great cider. I'll store it in the freezer until I have everything I need.

Next step - get 20l of granny smith juice. Stay tuned...

Cheers
Dave


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## randyrob (4/4/09)

Hey Mate,

nice work!

I've been experimenting with cider as well and having quite a bit of success. From my reading Crab apples are used to to add that tannin
bite that regular 'cooker' and 'table' apples lack. I'm not to sure if i would go all granny smith for the rest tho, i know they are cheap but
it might be better adding a mix of 'table' apples as well like red delicious, gala etc.

I have heard that LC's Pipsquek Cider only uses up to 30% Granny Smith apples, now i know your not trying to clone pipsquek but they could
do this for a reason.

What yeast are you going to go with and are you going to add a campden tablet to kill off any wild yeast?

looking foward to see how you go  

Rob.


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## pdilley (5/4/09)

Will be anticipating the results. Got a crab apple and a couple
Grannies that were not sprayed when I moved in. May have to ensure they get on a spraying schedule for the next season. Have a red apple but it was the lowest fruit set followed by the crab. The grannies just go gang busters though.

Did you core the apples or grind them up seeds and all?

Been looking at fruit presses but they are in the same ballpark as a juicing machine. Your looks to be a cork screw type extractor, slow but gets all the juice


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## Bizier (5/4/09)

I am jealous, great work.


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## Airgead (5/4/09)

Folks

4.5l of crab apple juice is in the fridge. Not bad for 1 bucket of fruit.

Pete - Yep my juicer is one of the screw type. Its an Oscar 900 and it does a great job. The pulp it spits out is nearly bone dry. I just chucked the fruit in whole (which is why I got so much pulp through). I couldn't be stuffed coring a bucket full of crab apples. I'll probably core and slice the regular apples when they go through.

Rob - To me a granny smith is a table apple. i like them tart but you're right with the crabs it may be too much in a cider. I might go 20% crab 40% granny and 40% something else. The 4l of crab juice I have is conveniently 20% of a 25l batch so that's cool. I'll use wyeast 4766 as I have that in the yeast bank already and it does a good job. I wasn't planing on killing the wild yeast. My wife is allergic to sulphur in wines etc so that rules out campden tabs. I'll bung in a big pitch of 4766 and let it go. That should overwhelm the wild stuff and if I do get some wild yeast flavours so be it. Apparently a lot of traditionally brewed cider is done with the wild skin yeast so that should be OK.

Cheers
Dave


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## sinkas (5/4/09)

dont crab apples have some toxic component?


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## Sammus (5/4/09)

supposing you did use campden to kill of wild yeast, how do you get rid of the sulpher so it doesn't kill whatever yeast you end up pitching?


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## Airgead (5/4/09)

sinkas said:


> dont crab apples have some toxic component?



Having just quaffed a big glass of juice I certainly hope not!

Nahhh they are eatable. They are very tart and astringent so you probably wouldn't want to (unless you're a loon like me who eats them off the tree).

Besides grannies have been making crab apple jelly out of them for generations.

Cheers
Dave

P.S - Sammus - the suplhur dissipates over a few days so the idea with the campden tabs is to add, leave for a few days then pitch. Unfortunately my missus is allergic to the trace amounts left behind.


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## pdilley (5/4/09)

mmm *passes* Dave a healthy large glass of Syrup of Ipecac in case he doesn't want to use the two fingers down the throat method.


For Malus sylvestris domestica, see Apple. The fruit of the other species is not an important crop in most areas, being extremely sour and (in some species) woody, and is rarely eaten raw for this reason. However, crabapples are an excellent source of pectin, and their juice can be made into a ruby-coloured jelly with a full, spicy flavour[2].* A small percentage of crab apples in cider makes a more interesting flavour*. As Old English Wergulu, the crab apple is one of the nine plants invoked in the pagan Anglo-Saxon Nine Herbs Charm, recorded in the 10th century.

OT: 

Did you ever do pasta or mince meat and make sausages with that Oscar?
I've been meaning to get a new mixer too, but the new Mix Masters are said to be rubbish compared to the old ones and kitchen aids cost more than most peoples complete brewing setups


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## Airgead (5/4/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> mmm *passes* Dave a healthy large glass of Syrup of Ipecac in case he doesn't want to use the two fingers down the throat method.
> 
> 
> For Malus sylvestris domestica, see Apple. The fruit of the other species is not an important crop in most areas, being extremely sour and (in some species) woody, and is rarely eaten raw for this reason. However, crabapples are an excellent source of pectin, and their juice can be made into a ruby-coloured jelly with a full, spicy flavour[2].* A small percentage of crab apples in cider makes a more interesting flavour*. As Old English Wergulu, the crab apple is one of the nine plants invoked in the pagan Anglo-Saxon Nine Herbs Charm, recorded in the 10th century.
> ...



I'm still fine... 

No I haven't' done anything but the crabs through the oscar. I only picked it up last week so give me time ;-)

Having just bought a new mixer (last year) I can tell you that Sunbeam mixmasters are crap. They would have disintegrated in a few weeks with some of my sourdough mixes. OK for somple cakes and stuff but nothing more. Kitchenaid are OK but overprcied (very trendy you see). They can be hard to operate as you have to lift the head manually to raise and lower the beater and that's where the motor is so its heavy. my wife struggled. The lower model kenwoods are plastic and flimsy. We ended up going for a mid range Kenwood chef. One of the stainless ones. Handles a big sourdough no problem, easier to use than the kitchenaid and cheaper.

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (5/4/09)

Airgead said:


> I'm still fine...
> 
> No I haven't' done anything but the crabs through the oscar. I only picked it up last week so give me time ;-)
> 
> ...



OT:
Kitchenaid is bog standard overseas, not trendy at all. There you pay $199 for the same model they charge $799 over here for! - Probably the biggest reason I can not stomach coughing up so much money for something so bog standard -- add that that overseas you also have the Kitchenaid Pro with a massive big wattage motor is not even sold over here, but there was close to $399. Over here I grew up with Mix Master, but alas everyone says the new one is rather poor, especially at kneading bread dough. Kenwood Chef I looked at, but it was still in the $720 range the model I was looking at. Most of the $400 range models aren't crash hot. All of these would probably butcher a sponge if you didn't keep up on them to make sure things are not whipped into rubber.


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## Airgead (5/4/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> OT:
> Kitchenaid is bog standard overseas, not trendy at all. There you pay $199 for the same model they charge $799 over here for! - Probably the biggest reason I can not stomach coughing up so much money for something so bog standard -- add that that overseas you also have the Kitchenaid Pro with a massive big wattage motor is not even sold over here, but there was close to $399. Over here I grew up with Mix Master, but alas everyone says the new one is rather poor, especially at kneading bread dough. Kenwood Chef I looked at, but it was still in the $720 range the model I was looking at. Most of the $400 range models aren't crash hot. All of these would probably butcher a sponge if you didn't keep up on them to make sure things are not whipped into rubber.



So far the Kenwood (and I think the one we have is in the one you were looking at) has done pretty well with everything we have thrown at it. No sponges so far but bread, slices, biscuits and cakes do fine. 

Cheers
Dave


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## troopa (5/4/09)

I coughed up the money for a kitchen aid for the wife last year
It hurt looking at the US price compared to the Aussie dollar but in the end it was worth it

The pain in the arse thing is that even the accessories are a pain to get over here in aus
Like the steel mincer.. Ive looked a fair bit up till recently and they only sell the plastic one over here 
But after looking at teh osacr i think ill get the juicer for it soon too 

Tom


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## rockyddinosaur (9/5/09)

G'day,

I undertook my annual cider pressing about three weeks ago. My apple bill consisted of:

3.5kg of crab apples
10kg of Granny Smith
36kg of Jonathan

This gave me 22l of juice. This year was the first time I have added crabs and the results were fantastic. Nice, tart and plenty of tannins. I used an aromatic white wine yeast from LHBS and a few tea spoons of yeast nutrient. I ferment in a glass demijohn and I bottle into champaigne bottles under crown seal.

I also have a kenwood chef mixer and a few attachments (mincer, sausage filler) which has never let me down. Ours is used nearly every day for mixing dough, batter, whipping cream, mincing meat, mashing potato, and will even kneed tough dough like for fresh egg pasta.


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## Airgead (12/5/09)

Rocky D Dinosaur said:


> G'day,
> 
> I undertook my annual cider pressing about three weeks ago. My apple bill consisted of:
> 
> ...



Cool. I've cheated a bit this year. I bought 12l of commercial organic juice rather than have to run 30kg or apples through the juicer. With the 4l of crab apple juice I have that will give me 16l so I'll get maybe 8-10kg of grannies and juice them up to make it up to the 22.

How do you juice yours? Or do you have a proper press?

Cheers
Dave


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## Schooie (23/5/09)

Hiyez,

I've go this year's cider batch in primary so I'm finding this an interesting thread.

I used 2l of crab apple juice from our 3 year old tree and the rest wildings from the paddock next door - nice acidic little (free!) apples. I have had really good results using Pink Ladies in the past - the best was with wild yeast but it doesn't always work (I've been told 1 in 10 works - not great odds...). Using Wyeast 4766 this year for the first time. 

Just out of interest, a commercial cider maker told me using crabs was a great idea but to limit them to no more than 10%. I think the tannins might be a bit much otherwise.

I'm fermenting pretty warm, 20C as recommended, but will chill it down once the primary's done. Anyone have any hints on fermentation for best results, cold conditioning etc. Smells fantastic! I'll keep you posted.


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## Airgead (25/5/09)

My cider has been waiting for some fermenter space to free up. I'll put it on this weekend. At the moment the recipe is 5l crabs, 10l commercial apple juice (good organic stuff) and 10l home crushed granny smith juice. I'll ferment with the 4766

I'll keep everyone posted.

Cheers
Dave


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## bconnery (25/5/09)

Airgead said:


> At the moment the recipe is 5l crabs,



DOes this make it the cider equivalent of an oyster stout?


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## Airgead (26/5/09)

bconnery said:


> DOes this make it the cider equivalent of an oyster stout?


Boom tish. :lol:


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## rockyddinosaur (31/5/09)

Airgead said:


> Cool. I've cheated a bit this year. I bought 12l of commercial organic juice rather than have to run 30kg or apples through the juicer. With the 4l of crab apple juice I have that will give me 16l so I'll get maybe 8-10kg of grannies and juice them up to make it up to the 22.
> 
> How do you juice yours? Or do you have a proper press?
> 
> ...



Pre bought juice does save you a bit of work! Most apple juice made for drinking is made from low tannin apples so your addition of the crab apples sould balance your cider our nicely, plus the Grannys will add quite a bit of acid as well.

I don't have a press, I just use a bench top juicer. Mine is the 1200w "Breville Commercial" which was a little more expensive than the standard one but can whip through 50kg of apples without a blinking. It came supplied with a little jug to catch the juice and seperate the foam but when I am doing a batch for cider I slip a piece of hose over the outlet nozzle and run it straight down to the bottom of the fermenter. The nozzle is quite wide, and the foamy liquid dosn't flow well so I have used a large piece of reinforced dishwasher tubing. 

The Breville can handle whole apples at a time and I usually fill two fermenters, let them settle and draw off the liquid underneath the foam when most of it has settled. 

I try to ferment at around 12-16 degrees and use white wine yeast - but this us mainly because I prefer my cider to be more like a sparkling wine (dry, crisp and tart).


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## pdilley (31/5/09)

Dave,

Gives us a taste test post before spraying season. Want to know if I should hit the Crab Apple tree with copper sulphate or just hit the green and reds.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (1/6/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Dave,
> 
> Gives us a taste test post before spraying season. Want to know if I should hit the Crab Apple tree with copper sulphate or just hit the green and reds.
> 
> ...



Will do. I have a fridge full of grannies to juice this week (the juicer will be getting a good workout) and the starter is firing up so i should have it in the fermenter in a couple of days.

Cheers
Dave


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## Greg.L (5/6/09)

Hi, I have a small farm near Bathurst and for the last 2 years have been making cider from table, cider and crab apples, and also pears. I think using crab apples is great, as has been noted, they add tannins and extra flavour (and definitely NO toxins). I got an OG of 1.06 from 1 crabapple tree this year, if your OG is only 1.05 you are probably picking a bit early.
I mill the apples with a garden mulcher, then press with a homemade press the traditional way. I get about 50% yield ie 5 litres per 10kg fruit. Pressing takes about an hour per 15 litres, this year I made 150 litres and it is drinking very well. I get an ABV of about 7% and carb in bottles after a month in primary.
This year I ordered 5 cider apple trees from strzlecki heritage apples, I aim to process over a ton of apples in a few years.
Greg


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## Airgead (9/6/09)

OK Folks. I finally did it. I spent yesterday juicing 10kg of Granny Smiths (photos to follow once I pull my finger out and download them from the camera). The end result was around 6-7L of lovely fresh apple juice. I added 12l of commercial preservative free organic juice and the 4.5l of crab apple juice that I had in the freezer from earlier.

End result - around 25l of very interesting juice with an OG of 1045. Added a nice active starter of wyeast 4766 and away we go.

I'll let you guys know how it ends up in a few weeks.

Cheers
Dave


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## Airgead (9/6/09)

Greg.L said:


> Hi, I have a small farm near Bathurst and for the last 2 years have been making cider from table, cider and crab apples, and also pears. I think using crab apples is great, as has been noted, they add tannins and extra flavour (and definitely NO toxins). I got an OG of 1.06 from 1 crabapple tree this year, if your OG is only 1.05 you are probably picking a bit early.
> I mill the apples with a garden mulcher, then press with a homemade press the traditional way. I get about 50% yield ie 5 litres per 10kg fruit. Pressing takes about an hour per 15 litres, this year I made 150 litres and it is drinking very well. I get an ABV of about 7% and carb in bottles after a month in primary.
> This year I ordered 5 cider apple trees from strzlecki heritage apples, I aim to process over a ton of apples in a few years.
> Greg



Can I be your friend? 

Seriously, if you have any left over from your own cider making I'll be happy to take them off your hands...

Cheers 
Dave


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## Airgead (10/6/09)

OK Folks. Only the one photo. this was my crushng setup. Juice was tipped into the sanitised fermenter at the bottom of the shot. The pulp fell straight into a bucket for easy disposal. Worked pretty well. next time I will buy a piece of hose the right size to fit over the outlet of the juicer so I can run the juice straight into the fermenter.


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## peas_and_corn (10/6/09)

She even brought a mash paddle for later on!


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## Airgead (30/6/09)

An update on the cider - 

All did not go smoothly after pitching. As soon as I had the fermenter full, I pitched my starter and shifted it into the fermentation fridge. Unfortunately we then had a cold snap. Please note - fridge not switched on. The thermostat was set to 16. I was hoping that fermentation would take of quickly and generate enough heat to keep the fridge warm with the thermostat kicking in to stop it overheating. It didn't. The temp crashed overnight to 8c.

Two days later and no activity at all. Fortunately Ross came to the rescue with a heater pad and fresh packet of 4766. That took a couple of days to arrange though so by the time I had warmed the juice back up and pitched the new starter a week had gone by. Juice still tasted OK though.

This time the fermentation took off strongly. Possibly a bit too strongly. It finished last week at 1.000. Dead dry. I usually finish at around 1.004-1.006 with the 4766 so either the crab apples changed the way the yeast ferments or I picked up an infection with something during the week it was sitting there. I am starting to suspect the latter. There is a lot of wild yeast on apples so that weeks delay may have given them a foothold and they just took over when I heated the juice back up to 16. I probably should have switched the fridge down to proper fridge temps for safe storage while I waited for the new yeast and heater.

I've crash chilled it now to drop the yeast out and I'll taste again in a week or two. It tastes very acidic and slightly odd now but I'm hoping that a few weeks ageing will soften things. If not and the odd flavours grow into full blown infected flavours this one might be for the drain.

If it doesn't get any worse I might throw some maleolactic culture in to soften the acids. I'll still need to back sweeten though. I'll probably add some fresh juice or maybe a touch of honey in the keg. As long as I keep it cold it will not re-ferment.

Even if this batch doesn't work out I will still call the crab apple experiment a success. the crabs added a lot of character to the initial juice and until it fermented right down dry it was tasting really nice. Definitely worth trying again next year. I might cut down to 2-2.5l of crab juice rather than the 4.5 I used this time. That's 10% rather than 20%. Or I might do a bunch of small batches with maybe 2%, 5%, 10%, 20% and see which works best before committing to a full batch.

I'll let you guys know how it tastes in a week or two.

Cheers
Dave


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## Airgead (6/7/09)

OK. I did some experimenting over the weekend.

Back sweetening to 1.008->1.010 makes this a rather nice drinkable cider. Needs some ageing bit it will be very drinkable once it has aged.

20% crab apples is definitely way too much. Especially when coupled with the granny smiths. 5-10% will work better next time...

Still not sure what dried it out so much. the only thing I can think of is my home pressed juice had a lot of pulp in it that may have given the yeast extra nutrients. Either that or I did get wild yeast in there and I'm just lucky that it was a nice tasting wild yeast.

Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (6/7/09)

Are you still going for a maleolactic treatment or perhaps blending with another cider?

I'm getting a nice acidic component with the S-04 so Ill have to switch yeasts if using next seasons crab apples.


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## Airgead (7/7/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Are you still going for a maleolactic treatment or perhaps blending with another cider?
> 
> I'm getting a nice acidic component with the S-04 so Ill have to switch yeasts if using next seasons crab apples.



Still not sure. I might split the batch and do half with the maleolactic and half just sweetened.

Cheers
Dave


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## Airgead (31/7/09)

O.K. Final update

After some sweetening experiments it tasted good enough that I didn't bother with the maleo-lactic. I back sweetened to 1.006 with a 50/50 mix of sugar and honey and kegged. Its tasting pretty good now. The crab apple definitely gives a lot more character and I'll certainly use them again. Probably around 5% though. 

I had a couple of litres that wouldn't fit in the keg so I sweetened to 1.020 and fortified with 30% brandy to make an apple liqueur. That tastes fantastic. The missus is very happy. I'm not sure how long the 3l will last but I can always make more from the base cider - just add sugar/honey and brandy.

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto (31/7/09)

Airgead - next time you can add campden tablets to your your fresh juice (sodium or potassium metabisulphite). 

This will kill any wild yeast present on the apples.

I do this, let the juice sit for 24-48h during which time the juice settles with the froth on top and clear juice underneath.

Rack the clear juice and add the yeast - like you i prefer wyeast 4766.

Very excited to hear the crab apple experiment worked. :icon_cheers:


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## Airgead (31/7/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Airgead - next time you can add campden tablets to your your fresh juice (sodium or potassium metabisulphite).
> 
> This will kill any wild yeast present on the apples.



I'm afraid I can't. I make this for the missus and she is allergic to the sulphur compounds in the campden tabs...

It would be so much easier if I could though.

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto (31/7/09)

Have you thought about potassium sorbate instead?

Seems like a lot of effort to go to only to risk infection.


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## Airgead (31/7/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Have you thought about potassium sorbate instead?
> 
> Seems like a lot of effort to go to only to risk infection.



I've thought about it but I'm not sure it would do the job. its a yeast inhibitor - stops the yeast from budding so I'm not sure I want that in there before adding my starter. If I add it and wait for it to dissipate, the wild yeast will come back to life as well and I'll be back where I started.

Traditional cider makers don't use the chemicals so I'll stick with my chemical free approach for a while. Next time I'll do two batches and try to keeve one. That sounds like fun.

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto (31/7/09)

Airgead said:


> I've thought about it but I'm not sure it would do the job. its a yeast inhibitor - stops the yeast from budding so I'm not sure I want that in there before adding my starter. If I add it and wait for it to dissipate, the wild yeast will come back to life as well and I'll be back where I started.
> 
> Traditional cider makers don't use the chemicals so I'll stick with my chemical free approach for a while. Next time I'll do two batches and try to keeve one. That sounds like fun.
> 
> ...



Traditional cider makers dont add yeast either........ :lol:


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## jonocarroll (31/7/09)

Airgead said:


> I treated the pulp with pectinainse and it looks to be dropping out a good bit more clear juice.





Airgead said:


> Traditional cider makers don't use the chemicals so I'll stick with my chemical free approach for a while.


 :huh: 



Airgead said:


> Next time I'll do two batches and try to keeve one. That sounds like fun.


You're already half-way there with the pectinase (as long as you mean pectin-methyl-esterase or PME enzyme, and not the pectinase that winemakers use for fining... ?) Incidentally, where did you get it? I had to do some wheelin' and dealin' to get mine, but it was ultra-pure. 'Traditionally' cider makers would use the natural PME in the fruit to separate the juices and keeve... but that's the slow way. They would however add chalk and common table salt to make calcium carbonate to help the pectin gel precipitate, so you can't exactly say they didn't add chemicals.

As for keeving - you want it to go slow, so you'll either need to have apples that happen to only have a small amount of good yeast on them, or use something to kill half the yeast. If sulphates are out, then the sorbate may be your only option, apart from many frequent rackings that will likely end in infection.

My keeved cider is in bottles, unexploded. I cracked a bottle earlier this week (several months ahead of schedule, out of anticipation) and it's got some fizz, and a nice apple taste. I'm really looking forward to summer with this one.


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## pdilley (31/7/09)

Sounds good dave. I'll add the Crab Apple tree to the spraying round this season.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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