# All Munich dunkel - anyone got advice they wanna share?



## philistine (9/6/16)

So Im midway thru my winter lager journey.
I started with a Helles, now fermenting a Vienna, my next move is a Munich Dunkel.
Both the Helles and the Vienna have actually been SMASH beers and I'd kinda like to keep the theme going, so I wanna do an all Munich malt Munich Dunkel.

An article I read in BYO magazine suggested a 9:1 ratio between Munich I and Munich II (so I guess its technically not a SMASH, but close enough for me). It also went on to say that that grain bill produces a beer thats on the lighter end of the colour spectrum and closer to being a brown rather than a dark - which Im happy with, though Im wondering if maybe upping the percentage of Munich II - say to 20% - will improve the brew & colour without spoiling it?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Cheers


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## rude (9/6/16)

Go 50/50 never done it but have drunk one that was bloody beautifull

Its on my to do list

Have read a percentage of Pils is good in the grist as well


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## Adr_0 (9/6/16)

100% Munich II, decoction.


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## drsmurto (9/6/16)

Adr_0 said:


> 100% Munich II, decoction.


+1

Never brewed a dunkel without at least one decoction. Super malty!


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## nosco (9/6/16)

Can you do a decoction with bib? Maybe treat it as a mash tun for temps and add the sparge water after? Keen to do a dunkel too. Maybe not keen for a decoction though...


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## manticle (9/6/16)

Decoction is easy.
Scoop out some grain with a smidge of liquor, boul reasonably hard, stir ocassionally, add back in when appropriate to raise main mash temps.
Easy, satisfying, aromatic.

Do it.


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## philistine (9/6/16)

im keen, but its daunting... I was just gonna do hot water infusions to step up temps....

If I wanna try and get an accurate step up from Temp A to Temp B by decoction, how do you work out how much to scoop out?
I've done some googling and found some really shitty decoction calculators and they really shitty....

To be exact, I'm gonna do a 5kg grain bill, starting mash thickness at 2L/kg
I wanna go from acid rest 38c to protein rest at 50c


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## manticle (9/6/16)

I have never worried because I use a heat stick to step.

However if using infusion (whether water or grain), use your calculator as a guide, have both hot and cold water handy and just add slowly and mix thoroughly.

Make it relaxing. It sounds daunting at first but it really isn't as long as you relax and enjoy the process. Like AG brewing for first and subsequent times.


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## MHB (10/6/16)

A couple of suggestions/questions.
Could you mash in a bit thinner? Decoction mashes are usually a lot wetter than 2:1 often closer to 4:1 and I would suggest about 3.75:1 would be a workable minimum (you will find 3.75 is about half your water).
Why do an acid rest (if it isn't several hours long its a waste of time) likewise a protein rest, only necessary if you are using undermodified malt, which I doubt will be the case. Modern decoctions usually start at 35oC, rest for 30 minutes or so for the enzymes to go into solution then decoct up to saccharification temperatures, or mash in at saccharification temperatures usually low 60's for Beta activity.

Before we look at doing the calculations you need to supply Target OG and Volume.
Oh and how big is your pot and do you have a decent set of scales?
Happy to work through the maths if you like, hopefully you wont find it really shitty, tho they can take a little getting your head around.
Mark


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## droid (10/6/16)

I'm loving decoctions now and am on the same malty lager path, having done two Marzens and a Dunkles bock with an Eisbock and Dopplebock to follow, I also decoct all my pale euro lagers now. At first it was daunting and messy and I wasn't really sure what I was doing (just like starting out in AG) but after the boil I had long forgotten about the decoctions.

When I drank the beer and got that wonderful malty flavour up front I looked back on the brew day and thought "I'll try that decoction business again, it was kinda fun". Now 8 brew days in with decoctions I'm getting more agressive with the side boil, making sure it doesn't stick to the bottom is the only concern, it's great and it really is taking the creative soul a bit further down the track of all-grain brewing!

btw - I'm using 2206 wyeast and really like the results.

Good luck I hope you try it and get into it! - embrace the mad cook in ya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7UmUX68KtE


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## philistine (10/6/16)

hahahahahhaaaaa, wow..... watching that swedish chef vid is pretty much the same kinda experience I have when googling the finer details of decocotion mash maths...... like- word for word (if you can call them words...) even the distracting phone call towards the end


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## philistine (10/6/16)

cheers for the encouragement though dudes, Im still keen to try this.

so to go back up to Mark's post and questions etc:

The reason the mash starts at that thickness is because basically my mash tun is too small (19L bev. cooler) to accommodate enough water to get thru a multi step mash using hot water infusions.
The original plan was to do 3 steps with 30mins rest each time - 50c, then 63-64c, then 69c. 
If I start at 2L/kg, it leaves me with enough room to comfortably do all 3 steps and still leaves room to stir the final addition well enough to stabilise the temp.
Ive used this mash schedule multiple times with great results and have become familiar enough with my gear to hit the target temps almost spot-on each time without the need for juggling backup water to adjust.
Also, my understanding (although limited) is that protein conversion favours a thicker mash, but thats just stuff that Ive read and I dont fully understand the science behind it.
In addition I should also mention that due to the round, tall and narrow dimensions of my bev. cooler mash tun, a thick mash like that still sits reasonably deep in a good volume of liquid and is well submerged.

The acid rest is suggested as a semi-optional 30 minute step in the same BYO article that I mentioned above about Dunkels.... but Im not hell-bent on doing it....http://byo.com/malt/item/578-dunkel-style-profile
The only way I could pull off that extra step and incorporate it into the same schedule (without making a mess) would be to stick with the same volumes and temps, but dough in at 35-38c, rest for 30min, then use a decoction to bring it up to 50c, followed by infusions to take it the rest of the way thru.
From what you've said Im thinking that, given the limitations of my set-up, perhaps its not really worth the time/effort for what's probably gonna be a below average result...(due to to many workarounds)
Unless of course I was to do a double or even triple decoction and do the whole mash that way.... but I think thats a project for another day and another brew. 

Ive invested a lot of time in this journey, spending almost two weeks prior to the Helles breeding yeast from an out of date pack etc., then timing bottling day with Vienna brew day so that I could repitch the same yeast straight away... 
So far everything has worked out really well... The helles hit all the targets, its bottled, the Vienna has also so far hit all the targets and Im feeling confident.... Im on a roll and I dont wanna ruin a good thing by getting tooooo crazy...

BUT, as you also mentioned - and I know the debate rages on about this - are these techniques even necessary with modern malts....?

having said all that, Im still keen to try work out if I can pull it off or not before making the decision!


As for specifics:


Target OG ~1.052
Target Batch volume 25L
Est. Boil volume ~ 32L (after a 90min boil, i'll finish up at about 26L which leaves about a litre behind as trub loss)

Pot size.... which pot? HLT is about 30L, MLT is about 19L, BK is a keggle..... then for doing the infusions, I set them all up simultaneously with the required water amounts inside on the kitchen stove in a 10L pot, a 6L pot and a 4L pot - so They're all on a low simmer when I dough in and I bring them up to the boil a minute or so before needed. 

scales... well, it depends what weight range you're referring to. I have accurate micro scales for yeast/agar/nutes, then 5kg kitchen scales for grain (but they're shit) and then I also use a set of cheapo bathroom scales with a solid glass top in the brewery to weigh the pots to work out how much liquid they have in them pre/post boil, SO MUCH EASIER THAN ANY OTHER METHOD -but they're only good for weight above 10kg or so... any smaller and they dont really register (they're digital and only seem to use 1-200gm increments)



phew... long post... thanks for reading :super:


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## MHB (10/6/16)

OK, first think I think you might have to remember is that a decoction isn't an addition like a hot water infusion. You take some out heat it and put it back, once, twice, three times if you want to and apart from a tiny amount of evaporation its the same as you started with.

The reason to mash in thinner is that you want to preserve the enzymes, the ones that get taken out with the decoction are all going to get killed off. When you mash in and give it a rest at around 35oC the enzymes go into solution, you take the thick doughy stuff from the bottom of the pot/tun (I find a soup ladle works really well), transfer that to you decocting pot.

With a 19L mash tun and 5kg of grain there is a problem mashing in at around 3.75:1 (18.75L) with the malt you should have about 22.25L in the tun, which could get messy. Personally I wouldn't try and do a decoction from a 2:1 mash in.

Another option would be to bail/syphon out the liquor and leave the decoction in the kettle and boil it there, then add the liquor back to the kettle.
Your 19L insulated tun would be a good place to sit it while you heat the decoction. - just thinking it through this sounds like the best option! Leaves you plenty of room for a hot water infusion for your second step, maybe even a third to mash out - have to run the numbers.

I would think of mashing in at 35oC/30m,decoct to 65+/-oC/60m, infuse to 75-78oC/10M, let it settle, syphon/bail off the sweet water (into a bucket, old fermenter...), pour the grist into your tun and sparge to the kettle, add the sweet water and start the boil.

Let us know if you want to have a play and we will work through the numbers.
Mark


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## technobabble66 (10/6/16)

This thread is a great coincidence: i'm looking at having a go at my first Munich Dunkel over the next month or so.
(- though maybe with a slight variation of using a little pale crystal in it to bring out some light caramel elements. I not too fussed on style, though obviously the style is defined around what works. Happy to reconsider if that's deemed to be a catastrophe...).

Anyway, i've read that using Wey Melanoiden malt is a decent substitute for decoctions. So i was planning on skipping the decoctions and just throwing in 150g of Melanoiden instead (in 5kg of grain, so 3%).
MHB et al, have you had experience with this, and if so what did/do you think of it?


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## MHB (10/6/16)

Sex with a condom on is better than no sex..... think it through.
Mark


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## technobabble66 (10/6/16)

Depends who it's with.
Stu




h34r: :lol:


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## MastersBrewery (10/6/16)

MHB said:


> Sex with a condom on is better than no sex..... think it through.
> Mark


 Best advice given on AHB in the last 6 years!


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## technobabble66 (10/6/16)

Ok.
God dammit!! So you really think the decoction provides way more awesomeness than Melanoiden could provide?? Bugger!!

Sooooo, onto decoctions then!

... just did some reading....

Quick query:
The mash steps I'll probably do are: 55/63/72/78, for 5/70/20/2.
What/when would you suggest to insert decoction steps?
The obvious 2 would be 55 -> 63 and 63 -> 72.
The second is fine, but the first may be an issue as i only sit it at 55 for 5mins, and it takes ~10mins to get it up to 63°C, so nowhere near enough time to get a decoction up to conversion for 15mins, then boil for 20mins.
One solution could be to split the sacch step into 2, such as 62-63 then 65-66. ~30mins each.

Would you say it's worth trying to do 2 decoctions, or just the one (63 up to 72) for this virginal attempt?


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## kaiserben (10/6/16)

Munich Dunkel is probably my favourite style. Weltenburg Kloster Barock Dunkel in particular being my favourite commercial example. I've only made one myself (when it comes to lagers I've also made 2 schwarzbiers, a helles and a bock). 

I was VERY happy with my dunkel, made without decoction (and without melanoidin). It took about 2 months lagering (in bottles) for it to hit its peak. Before then it wasn't particularly amazing, but after 2 months it was superb. 

I'm keen to give decoction a try one day for shits & giggles, but in no rush considering how happy I've been with my non-decocted lagers. 

Off the top of my head my malt bill for the dunkel was ~87% Munich 1, ~9% CaraMunich 2, (with some minor amounts of CaraAroma and Carafa Special 2).


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## MHB (10/6/16)

The benefit from decocting comes mainly from the heating up of the grist. Remember that there are still enzymes in there so you get all the usual degradations as you heat, note that you should heat slowly 1oC/minute, and rest at 60oC something to give the amylases a chance to do what they can (call it 10 minutes or so).
then you heat to a boil. At the higher temperatures quite a lot of interesting things can happen, among them is that small starch granules that normally don't get gelatinised become liquefied, normally these aren't available to the amylase as they aren't gelatinised before the amylase is killed off. Similar processes happen to some of the glucans, quite a lot of high molecular weight protein condenses...

Normally we act to avoid these processes, as we would be creating a blue wort (un-degraded starch), Glucan gels and set proteins that make lautering a major bitch, and extract too much tannin. By reintroducing the boiled grist back into the sweet water many (even most) of the enzymes can act on the new starch and other bits we have made available and do so, one of the reasons we tend to get better extract yield from the same amount of malt. We also create some unique flavours from Maillard reactions at the same time.

Where this is going is that we get the best return on the extra time we invest in a decoction by boiling as much of the grain as possible. So lots of small decoctions or big temperature steps boil more of the malt.
That's why I would recommend you mash in at about 35oC reasonably thin and use the decoction to make one big step up to saccharification temperatures (around 30oC) it means you can boil most of the malt and get the biggest benefit from the decoction for the least time and effort.
Mark


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## kaiserben (10/6/16)

MHB kinda just touched on this, but maybe could elaborate: What about the tannins? I've always been so worried about extracting tannins with too much heat during the easier types of mashing, so boiling some grains during decotction seems counter-intuative. What's the story there?


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## MHB (10/6/16)

To my mind its just like making billy tea. Add tea and sugar to cold water heat to a boil, you get a unique rich sweet tea that isn't bitter.
Try the same without the sugar and it will taste like a barbed wire pull-through!
I think the sugar blocks the tannins from coming into solution.

Same in a decoction, you have grist, water, enzymes and you make sweet water, this blocks the husk tannins.
Worth remembering that most of the concerns about extracting tannins are related to sparging, where the sugar concentration is low.
Mark


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## philistine (10/6/16)

Thanks for taking the time mark, thats a bunch of really good info - in light of which ive decided to pass on the decoction this time 'round. The number one reason being that i just dont have the right kind of set up (ie small mash tun) and i reckon the workaround sounds like a pain in the arse, at least for a first attempt on a brew that i care about getting right. 
Maybe after the dunkel ill see if i can get a 4th lager in and ill be less invested and more inclined to experiment.

Btw - this thread really diverged from the original question [emoji41]

Im cool with that tho, but still keen to hear peoples opinions on an all munich malt bill!


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## bigmunchez (10/6/16)

Just finished my dunkel keg, sorry to see it go. I used 90% best munich 1, 10% weyermann munich 2, 1% carafa special 3. Hochkurz mash. Came out awesome, clean malty flavour but a dry finish. I'd caution against using too much crystal, I personally hate a sweet dunkel. Maybe brew it simple like you originally planned and then tweak from there. Colour wise it came out like

edit: photo didn't work...


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## manticle (10/6/16)

kaiserben said:


> MHB kinda just touched on this, but maybe could elaborate: What about the tannins? I've always been so worried about extracting tannins with too much heat during the easier types of mashing, so boiling some grains during decotction seems counter-intuative. What's the story there?


I believe pH is a major factor in tannin extraction so boiling the acidic grains and solution will not result in discernible tannin levels. Certainly not an effect I've ever encountered from decocting.


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## kaiserben (10/6/16)

All-Munich would end up too light in colour. Don't be afraid to add a little carafa. Just enough that you can only barely realise it's there. Not only will that correct the colour, but the discreet roastiness really adds to a dunkel IMO. 

98% Muncih malts 
2% Carafa Special 2 

EDIT: 
Having said that, when I created my recipe I found that this was still too light in colour, and not wanting to go overboard with the Carafa, I tweaked it till my colour was where I wanted it (hence ~9% CaraMunich 2 I mentioned earlier). 

Some recommend Pils Malt, but that's not going to help colour-wise.


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## pajs (10/6/16)

Have done a couple of different 100% Munich II beers and they can work quite well, in both malt-forward styles and something with more overt hop and yeast character.


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## technobabble66 (13/6/16)

Slight Hijack: I posted a recipe in the Style of the Week - Munich Dunkel thread.
Suggestions welcome!


For the record, it's: 
88% Munich,
4% Aromatic,
3% Melanoiden,
3% Midnight Wheat,
2% Acidulated.
Hall mitt, Select, & EKG roughly equal amounts @FWH to hit 21.5 IBUs.
2 Decoctions planned.


PS: that Style of the Week thread is pretty good for some reading on MDs, if you want to wade through the 8 pages.


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## rude (14/6/16)

Good thread decoction sounds good

When I do mine first up 50/50 munich 1 & 2 maybe carafa 2 for colour just for starters

Then the decoction with tweaks


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## thylacine (25/6/16)

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/313493/old-dark-bear

"Old Dark Bear" recipe. 97% Munich, 3% Carafa III

(I like it with 5% Smoked grain)

Cheers


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## nosco (25/6/16)

I have a heap of Munich 1 that I was going to use for a dunkel. But since no one seems to like the idea of a biab with decoction would a long boil work? Maybe not for colour but for flavour. Manticle suggested a long boil in the 2hr brew thread. So maybe 50/50 Munich 1 & 2 and a long boil?

Edit: I didn't realise that Munich 1 wouldn't be dark enough when I bought it. But I use it a lot in other brews so no problem.


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## manticle (25/6/16)

Long boil is great with great results (I'd do it with a doppelbock for example) but I have no idea why biab would preclude a decoction or two. Process is the same.


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## nosco (25/6/16)

Cheers I'll give it a go.


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## Randai (26/6/16)

I attempted a decoction using BIAB recently on an 95%ish munich 2 alt that went alright. Though I haven't done the recipe without a decoction at this stage so can't tell you if it'd be better or worse.
But give it a crack, it was a lot of fun, also my efficiency shot up by quite a bit. Probably all the stirring.


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## Adr_0 (26/6/16)

Randai said:


> I attempted a decoction using BIAB recently on an 95%ish munich 2 alt that went alright. Though I haven't done the recipe without a decoction at this stage so can't tell you if it'd be better or worse.
> But give it a crack, it was a lot of fun, also my efficiency shot up by quite a bit. Probably all the stirring.


What wasn't quite right? Water, hops, yeast,an off flavour from fermentation... Or not quite what you were expecting? I would think that would be too bready caramel for an alt.


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## Randai (26/6/16)

Adr_0 said:


> What wasn't quite right? Water, hops, yeast,an off flavour from fermentation... Or not quite what you were expecting? I would think that would be too bready caramel for an alt.


Yeah the dark munich, while a only a few shades darker than the light munich seems a bit too much maltiness at this stage. Maybe with some more time it'll meld a bit better. Probably even the decoction probably lent some more melanoidans to that richness.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kaiser_Alt

Followed this recipe with the exception of the munich 2, but from what I gather an alt shouldn't be as heavy as a dunkel, which I think munich 2 might suite a bit better.


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## Danscraftbeer (26/6/16)

Good reading. This is cooking! Many ways to skin a cat. Or cook a good steak casserole.
I do the the single infusion mash in an esky and batch sparge but my esky mash tun has room to spare. So next time I'll try doing something like the step/deconcoction.
Basically the way I see it is the mash starts off low temps and raises over time to mash out temps. I can start low at 2lt/grain . Then add hotter water.
Drain off some wort and heat and re add.
That's the way I'll wing it.

Or is boiling mashed grains something to be better? That is my question. :icon_drool2:


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## philistine (28/6/16)

My understanding is that with a decoction you wanna boil the grain itself with as little wort as possible so as to not kill off too many enzymes. 
So if your mashing in an un-heated esky and wanna use different temp rests, you have a choice between either boiling the grain and adding it back (decoction) or using boiling water infusions. Draining off wort and heating it would ok but only if it didnt get hotter than mash-out temps.
Further back in this thread mhb was saying that a decoction mash should start at around 3.5l per kg , so 2l per kg is too thick for that method and would better suit boiling water infusions.....

For me, with my mash tun esky being only 19l - the only way to do a 3 step mash is to use boiling water infusions and start with a thick 2l/kg mash.... Theres just not enough space to do a 3.5l/kg mash to suit a decoction.

Anyway, back to grain, im doing it this wknd and there was no munich 1 available so that made the decision to try a 100% munich 2 grain bill that much easier [emoji41]


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## sstacey (28/6/16)

Having made dunkels with all munich vs more complex grain bills, I definitely prefer recipes with carafa special 2 in it. It gives a darker colour and more chocolatey flavour, which I love in a Dunkel. Without the carafa special I find it a bit plain and one dimensional.


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