# 20l Stovetop All Grain Aussie Lager



## Nick JD

In the "Move to All Grain for Thirty Bucks" thread there were a lot of comments asking how to do "full sized" brews and not little 9L ones on the stovetop. This is a tutorial thread to show the limits of what's comfortably possible on the stovetop and how with little effort you can make 20L of full-strength beer with only a 19L pot and a stove. 

There are other great guides very like this one. My intentions aren't to displace them but only to stand alongside them, and possibly advance those who followed my last tutorial thread in a familiar way. 

Suppose we'd better start with some grain. But first, _The World's Simplest Recipe:

_4kg Barrett Burston Ale Malt (don't worry that it's an ale malt for a lager - it doesn't matter and it is low in DMS precursers)
27g Pride of Ringwood Hops

Here's 1kg of grain.







And the Ol' Faithful grinder filled with as much as it'll take.






Lid on.






The result of about 10 seconds of grinding.






After a couple of minutes we have 1kg of ground grain. This level of mincing the grain is okay for BIAB, but not for traditional systems. 






Here's a close up photo of the consistency.


----------



## levin_ae92

So it doesnt take you long to grind all 4kg in that little grinder?


----------



## Nick JD

While we're grinding up the malt we can put about 12L of hot tap water in the pot and turn the element to eleven. It takes about 15 minutes to reach strike temperature with the lid on (in this case 70C, for a mash temperature of 65C).






Here's the 4kg of grain ready to go.






And this can sometimes happen.






I let it go past strike temperature by a couple of degrees. Some people like to add a bit of cold water here, but I chose to just pour a beer and wait for it to come back down to 70C. Didn't take long with some stiring.

So it's in with the bag and the grain. Then it's stirred up a bit to get out the bigger lumps and covered in 4 towels for insulation. We can then write down the "Mash In" time.






This mash is going for 90 minutes.


----------



## Nick JD

levin_ae92 said:


> So it doesnt take you long to grind all 4kg in that little grinder?



If I hurry I can do a kg in about 2 minutes.


----------



## levin_ae92

I'd be interested to see what effinciency you get. I follow the same procedure with grain normally milled and get about 65% effic


----------



## Nick JD

Time to kill here, so may as well get some hops ready. 

Here's some PoR which is the staple Aussie hop that's in every megaswill beer except XXXX. It makes your beer taste like Aussie beer without fail. 






One thing to note though, is that Carlton use extraction processes for their hops so an Aussie Lager made with real hops will taste more "hoppy" than one made with hop extracts - this is a good thing IMO.

27g are weighed.






Time to relax for 90 minutes, drink a couple and watch TV - preferably sport.


----------



## Nick JD

levin_ae92 said:


> I'd be interested to see what effinciency you get. I follow the same procedure with grain normally milled and get about 65% effic



I did this all yesterday, and am now writing it up so you won't have to wait 90 minutes, although I am a slow typer.


----------



## Nick JD

For these big stovetop mashes I like to do two things: take the pot off the stove and put it on the bench to finish the mash, and bring up about 6L of water to 75+C. I don't do this for my smaller mashes, but for the bigger ones I think it's worth it to do some "sparging" (or my version of it!).

Here's the hot water in another big pot (a 15L one).






When the mash is finished we basically lift the bag out and hold it up to let it drain - until my arms start to freakin hurt from holding it up.

Then we dump it in the other smaller pot, open it up and let it sit in there for a few minutes stirring the crap out of it, effectively doing exactly what it was doing in the larger pot. It's lifted out of this pot and squeezed, and then hung up to drain over the green brewer's bucket. 






All the sweet, sweet barley sugaz are combined into the one original pot and heat is applied at maximum warp.

We can now see how we did. _[Note: it's not good practice to put your hydrometer in your pot. I do it but probably shouldn't - I warm it up with the hot tap first and it never goes in hotter than 75C.]
_





That's roughly 15L of 1.042 at 64C - when we run that through some calculations that's 15L of 1.060 at 20C.

That's pretty much what we want because diluted to 20L, that's going to be beer with about 4.5% alc, like a Carlton.

We should (or could) really add about 300g of sugar at this stage to have an authentic Aussie Lager - but that's up to you. I'm leaving it out of this one because this is an Aussie Lager with a bit more body than usual. A few hundred grams of dextrose would pop it up to 5.0% and thin it out nicely if you are going for a closer copy. I like beers with a bit of bootie.


----------



## Nick JD

So the pot is on its way to the boil. I put the lid on for this part because I can hear the sound change when it's close to boiling (it goes quieter like a kettle). I don't recommend lidding it but it does speed it up a bit. 

So let's get the hops in a bag. Notice they are in a big bag - nice and loose like a tea bag.






When it hits the boil we can chuck the bag in. I used a peg to keep it on the side but it's cool to let it float off.






Here's how loose the hops should be in the bag once they have soaked and expanded.






As you can see we've already got a bit of evaporation happening after about 30 minutes. Don't worry about these things because it's easy to add more water. 

The water at this stage is only there to hold the sugaz and to extract the hop acids. 

I forgot to mention that we're using about 25% more hops because we're boiling in 1.060, not 1.040. That's about $1 more hops, so no worries.


----------



## Nick JD

Now we need to make sure not to forget this stuff.






It coagulates the proteins in the boil and makes them drop out and sink, so we can leave them behind when we transfer to the fermenter. I used half a tablet mainly because I can't work out how to quarter them. They smell like the sea. It's crumbled in with about ten minutes to go.

So here we are at the end of the boil. I've taken out the hop bag. We've lost a lot of liquid but no worries, but we haven't lost any sugaz - water's free and readily available - we'll add some more soon.






Now we can quick chill, or no chill the wort at this stage - but I put some gladwrap over the top and let it sit on some tiles overnight to cool. It works fine for me.


----------



## Nick JD

Hey presto, it's the next day (today).

We sanitize the fermenter and funnel and pour the contents of the pot (cooled to ambient temperature ~22C) into the "fermenter" (a "20L" camping water container) that holds about 23L.






As you can see it only comes to halfway-ish.






But we lost a few liters of water in the boil, but no sugaz, although we did leave behind about 500ml of crud (break material) in the pot. 

So now we top up the fermenter to 20L with cold tap water and bung it in the fermenting fridge with the temperature set to 11C because we're using a pack of 34/70 yeast.






I would have taken an OG but as you can see the water is sitting on top of the wort! I'll have to give it a while to let it homogenize and then get an OG. 

By the time the yeast kicks off it will have dropped down to a more lager-appropriate temperature. 

I'll post some more stuff when we come to FG, and add gelatin and polyclar - so we can be drinking nice, bright Aussie Lager.

Cheers. :icon_cheers:


----------



## AussieJosh

Thanks for this mate! although im not a huge fan of "aussie lager" im gonna give this a crack! i wanna move away from kits and extracts


----------



## manticle

Nick has shown you the technique and a simple recipe. You can replace the recipe using this technique.

My understanding is that you are a fan of coopers so if you simply use recultured coopers yeast with this recipe and ferment at ale temps rather than lager temps, you'll probably come close.


----------



## Nick JD

manticle said:


> My understanding is that you are a fan of coopers so if you simply use recultured coopers yeast with this recipe and ferment at ale temps rather than lager temps, you'll probably come close.



Very close.


----------



## MCT

Nick JD said:


> We should (or could) really add about 300g of sugar at this stage to have an authentic Aussie Lager - but that's up to you. I'm leaving it out of this one because this is an Aussie Lager with a bit more body than usual. A few hundred grams of dextrose would pop it up to 5.0% and thin it out nicely if you are going for a closer copy. I like beers with a bit of bootie



Nice job doing a full batch on the stove.

Just to let you know, that by adding more sugar, it won't 'thin' your beer out, it will still have the same body.
When people talk about using sugar to thin a beer out, it is using sugar and using less malt to get the same OG.

Just a common misconception that people often make.


----------



## Nick JD

MCT said:


> Just a common misconception that people often make.



That's true. 

I've added 400g of dextrose to this recipe before and it really seems to thin it out. Maybe alcohol's SG of 0.790 can make a bit of difference to FG.

You've raised an interesting point - if 5% of the beer is 0.790 SG, how many points of SG do the water and unfermentable sugars represent as a ratio? I would think beer would be at least 90% water ... raise the alcohol by 1% and you're lowering the body by a bit.


----------



## MCT

I agree it would make a difference, I just think don't think a huge difference.
It is an interesting point I haven't really thought through. How much actual alcohol (volume) would be created by adding 400g of sugar? If we knew that we could work out how that added to say 20 litres of beer with a gravity of say 1.012 would affect it.
I reckon missing mash temps would play a bigger role in the body of the beer. And yeast health.

Anyway enough thread hyjacking, I'm still impressed you did a full batch on the stove :beer:


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Superb tutorial Nick! Love your pics ... :beerbang:


----------



## Florian

Well done Nick. It's always good to see simple step by step instructions combined with pics. Your "30 bucks thread" has inspired me to do my very first all grain tomorrow. I like the idea of 9l batches to experiment, but once I've found a good enough recipe I will no doubt adapt your full batch approach.

Florian

Edit:spelling


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Nice thread Nick - a simple and easy to follow method for the stovetop brigade.

one little thing that is unimportant but a process step that might improve yield _slightly_. If you add dilution water to your pot before you cool it, then the 500ml of trub etc you leave behind will still be 500ml in volume, but contain less of your sugars. Not so important in normal gravity brewing, but in high gravity brewing it'll make a difference.

You ended up with slightly less than half a cube of wort, so say 11-12L in that pot post boil? And you left 500ml behind - thats 0.5/11 x 100 = 4.5% of your total sugars lost to trub. Top the pot up to 18L before cooling and its 0.5/18 x 100 = 2.8% instead. So you an get back a couple of % efficiency basically for free.

Not sure if or how that can mesh in with your method - or if its worth the bother - but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Nice post

TB


----------



## Nick JD

Thirsty Boy said:


> So you an get back a couple of % efficiency basically for free.



Great advice, Thirsty. Will do.

It breaks my heart to leave that super-concentrated wort in between those "brains" at the bottom of the pot. I heard Bribie say that he often strains it to remove the break and uses it to make a starter - I might also try that, but am not sure how to strain it. I wonder if voile would contain the break?

When I'm doing normal-gravity brewing with this method I even leave the cold break behind - only clear wort goes into the fermenter, but this method the cold break goes in or that's even more sugaz left behind.

EDIT: if I could get some (assured) clean ice and dump in 8L of it into the 11L of 100C wort in the pot ... I could probably pitch straight away. Now that would be a rapid chilling method :beerbang:.


----------



## Nick JD

Another method that I think some of the breweries round the world do, that would work in this situation is to ferment high-gravity.

Using a little fermenter and not diluting, you could ferment out the 1.078 SG wort with (probably need more, and definately healthy) yeast ending up with something like an 8% beer at bottling.

Then it's just a matter of priming, half-filling your bottles and topping up with cooled boiled water. Certainly an option if you have limited fridge space, and probably a great option for making mid-strength or light-strength beers.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

If you try and dilute post fermentation, you run into issues with oxygen - big breweries do dilute post fermentation, but they dilute with de-oxygenated water. You also get different fermentation characteristics with high gravity fermentations. Its perhaps doable... and maybe you might try if you really didn't have space for a bigger fermenter. But the more you try to squeeze lots of beer out of less equipment - the more likely you are to get to the point where the trade offs you make result in a lower quality result. Take it to its ultimate and what you end up with is a tin of goo....

I've regularly filtered my trub to re-use as a starter. You just filter it through a tea towel. If its cold and you muck about with it... you really need to re-boil it anyway if you pan to use it for a starter, so there is no need to be careful with sanitation... filter it through any old thing and re-boil it quickly to zap the bugs. You can freeze it after filtering it.. and do the re-boil at a later date when you want to use it.


----------



## Nick JD

I've done the dilution at bottling with cooled boiled water before and haven't noticed any ill effects, but I will add that I don't often have a bottle older than 6 weeks that hasn't been filtered by my liver and kidneys and flushed. 

If the water is de-oxygenated by boiling and is introduced into the bottle in the same method as the beer (into a bottle with 20% O2 in it) why would it introduce any more oxygen than the beer would?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Well you just said it, if its de-oxygenated by boiling - you have helped the issue, as long as you have been careful to not re-oxygenate it in the process.

The beer has a low level of oxygen because it is basically saturated with C02 - the water has its own dissolved oxygen.. thats the issue. If you were for instance to put boiling water in a keg, flush it out with C02 and lightly carbonate it... that would be de-oxygenated water which you could use without any real issue. Otherwise the water is going to pick up O2, or have its own pre-dissolved O2, which is going to reduce the shelf life of your beer.

If the shelf life of your beer is never going to be an issue - then its not an issue. Me - I regularly have beers around for 6 months or more so it matters.

Strokes, Folks, Different. Just flagging the issue so you are aware it exists.


----------



## RdeVjun

Congratz Nick on rolling your guide out! I've been doing this sort of stove- top BIAB/ dunk sparge + over- gravity boil for a while now, it works just fine and I'm pleased to see other folks coming to the same conclusion. It makes brilliant AG beer with easily- obtained and cheap equipment, plus, even with the smaller kettle, the batch size can be on par with other methods, but the risks involved with this are quite minimal (just the smaller stockpot and BIAB bag) compared to setting up even a basic traditional multi- vessel system, so more folks do have AG as an option to try out and it won't be risking the farm if they find it just isn't for them.
FWIW, I actually have a couple of legitimately- owned stainless firkins that I has grand plans for in a multi- vessel setup, but this stovetop method works just fine for me so I still use it and advocate others do the same.

I've also done a few post- ferment dilutions, I agree completely with TB- unless fermenter volume is a limiting factor then it really isn't worthwhile for the risks involved plus the extra PITA. By all means try it, but I found there wasn't any great benefit. Flavour from high- gravity fermentation was slightly different, not better or worse, just slightly different. Bottling a few of the undiluted beer gives you a couple of extra- strong variants of the batch which are useful for comparison, though after a couple of tallies of it I had to have a brief spell lying down!

I also harvest the last few hundred ml of wort from the boil gunk for yeast starters, just about any cloth would do as a filter but I use a cone of material that is for running cooking oil through to rejuvenate it, fits in a large sieve but also a funnel. Dilute (or not) and freeze in a plastic bottle, then when needed just thaw and transfer to a tough glass bottle for steaming and sanitising prior to inoculation.


----------



## johnyb

Thanks Nick. I am about to do my first BIAB this weekend, and your wonderful post has only added to my confidence to go forward. I do appreciate your time and effort.

John


----------



## aaronpetersen

Nick JD said:


> EDIT: if I could get some (assured) clean ice and dump in 8L of it into the 11L of 100C wort in the pot ... I could probably pitch straight away. Now that would be a rapid chilling method :beerbang: .



I do that all the time for cooling extract brews. I just use plain old tap water that I freeze in tupperware containers. Sure does cool the wort fast.


----------



## Nick JD

I forgot to show how to make your stovetop beer crystal clear. The method for fining beer varies a lot - this is the way I do it, but not the only, or best way. It works for me. 

When the beer has reached Final Gravity the temperature is upped to 20C (for a lager like this) for a couple of days so the yeast eats the diacetyl. Then it's brought back down to 10C and gelatin is added like this:

In a pot about half a cup of tap water is poured in.







Then about this much cooking gelatine from the supermarket (maybe a teaspoon and a half) is added to the water and swirled a bit. It's left for a few minutes to settle in and dissolve.











Then the stove is turned to a medium heat (don't want to see too many bubbles rising) and the thermometer is added to make sure we don't go over 75C. 






When it reaches 75C the pot's taken off the heat and left to stand for a minute or two. Then I just pour it into the fermenter and wait two days at 10C ... when we can add the Polyclar.


----------



## Nick JD

That's the suspended yeast made to clump (flocculate) and fall into the sediment - now the polyphenols (chill haze).

Polyclar doesn't really need any pictures. I just add 4g of it to a half cup of boiling water and stir it with a spoon for about 5 minutes reasonably vigouously. You're supposed to stir it for donkey's years, but I don't and it still seems to work. 

I add it to the 10C fermenter and bottle the next day. My lagers are crystal clear at 4C using this method. 

Here's a bottle from this brew that I bottled yesterday. The gelatin works a treat - and there's about a 2mm layer of yeast at the bottom. It's got a week or two to carbonate and I'll take a photo of the finished product in a cold glass.


----------



## peterhop

Thanks Nick - I have been inspired by your AG for 30 bucks thread.

I decided to move up to 20 L on a stovetop by getting a second kettle (cheap big W 17 L SS pot). Each pot BIABs about 9 L of wort.


----------



## MarkBastard

Nick I think you just sold me on gelatine and polyclar (though to be fair I was half-sold already)


----------



## Nick JD

Here's the final product in a schooner.

It could be a little bit more carbonated (should be hunky-dory in another week) but it's tasting great - dead ringer for a Carlton - somewhere around Carlton Draft flavour-wise, but a tad sweeter (which might be some of the carbonation sugar still unfermented). I'm guessing around 5.0% alc. Remember to take into account the 0.5% that the carbonation sugar adds if you're not kegging - and also if your mates are drinking a couple at your place and then driving.






As you can see, a 1 micron filter wouldn't take anything out of it. This is at about 5-6C. The bottle was still crystal clear at 4C. When your mates drink this and find out it's 15c a schooner, $50 says the next thing they ask you is to teach them how to do it . It's a good idea to teach your mates for two reasons: firstly, they won't always be drinking your beer; and secondly, you can drink theirs. Heh heh.






Cheers.


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

Awesome thread! My next order from Ross will include some grain for my first BIAB!


----------



## antains

I just got back from Big W with a 19l stockpot and wanted to clarify the process. I found your AG for $30 thread and now this one.

It's good to read a clear description with some pics to help demonstrate the process.

Thanks and cheers,
Ant. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I did my first AG brew a couple of weeks ago using a 19L pot on the stove. I used the 9L guide but applied it to a 20L brew. The issue was, I had rubbish efficiency, because the lower water to grain ratio does affect the efficiency. I found this guide after (typical) and it made a point that sparging would be good.

So when I ran another brew through on sunday, I used a pasta strainer into a 8L pot. I used water at 78 degrees (about 6L worth, 4.5L in the first wash and 1.5 in the second), used the rubber gloves and squeezed before sparge, sparged with 4.5L and squeezed again and then 1.5L to get the remnants out.

I found that, even though I had to water down the wort to fill out the required quantity, I had far better efficiency.

I mashed for 90 minutes, did the above and boiled for 90 minutes. The difference was very significant.

I think if I'm going to do a 20L batch in future, I'll half all ingredients and use the 2 pots ($11.98 at big W this week) to mash each half and then boil it down. I think it will be the most efficient I can be without much effort (and will reduce the possibility of spillovers on the stove, which I had on the weekend.


----------



## jakub76

Hey Nick_JD, great post. You're original AG for $30 convinced me, it was a great bridge between extract and AG. Full volume on your stove top is a top achievement. 



MCT said:


> How much actual alcohol (volume) would be created by adding 400g of sugar? If we knew that we could work out how that added to say 20 litres of beer with a gravity of say 1.012 would affect it.



I've punched the numbers into BrewPal and it seems 400g of cane sugar into 20L would yield 0.7% alcohol by volume = 140ml. So 140ml of alcohol at an SG of 0.790 - will it thin your beer out? There's some other formula someone else can punch in I'm sure but I would agree with MCT that sugar is used to thin a beer out by replacing some of the malt bill.


----------



## Nick JD

400g of sugar is quite a lot - especially if you are going to add another 200g or so, for bottle carbing. 

I reckon 250g of sugar is fine for an Aussie Lager, it actually _should _be there to remain faithful to the style. Probably best to take out maybe 400g of grain if you are going to add 250g of sugar.

I didn't want to add sugar to this because I wanted to show you could get a full strength beer without it at 20L on the stove - but I often add a bit of dextrose to my beers.

As always, it's _your _recipe.


----------



## KGB

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Awesome thread! My next order from Ross will include some grain for my first BIAB!



Same here, in the last week I have grabbed my $11.98 stock pot, $5 of voile (which got me a $hitload) and my $19.99 Aldi coffee grinder.
Great stuff Nick, well done.


----------



## technoicon

i was just doing this method but used a magic bullet type device instead. it looks like my grain is to fine now. if i hold it up in the biab bag, then i can sprinkle it like you would flour, is this correct? 
I'm about to see how it goes with 2 biab bags. 

is this fine for some of the grain to fall into the mash, will it disolve? or will there be heaps of crap in the bottom. dont really want to have to leave heaps of crud on the bottom when putting it in the fermenter.


----------



## bum

There will be crap. But there will be crap anyway.

Rad name, brah. For reals.


----------



## Nick JD

Bum has caught another case of verbal diarrhea.


----------



## bum

There will be crap, Nick. You know this. You have posted pictures of this. In your own beer glasses.


----------



## technoicon

hahaha. yeah cool. i just decided to just try it. Crushed my 4.5kg last night and brewing tonight. If i use 2 bags it almost doesnt come out. so still not sure if i want to because it might filter it to much.

I've taken photo's along the way so i will make my own post with how it went.


----------



## Nick JD

Awesome Fury said:


> I've taken photo's along the way so i will make my own post with how it went.



Good stuff.


----------



## Nick JD

bum said:


> There will be crap, Nick. You know this. You have posted pictures of this. In your own beer glasses.



Bazinga!


----------



## Bribie G

Nick, just caught up with this thread. I was off the Internet at the Beginning of May while moving house. Awesome tutorial. I've recently brewed up a batch of Oz Lager for a forthcoming comp and it's amazing just how close you can get. I find a great addition is 300g of Carapils to give a long lasting creamy head and lacing, although it lifts the beer more into premium class and away from swill class. I agree with you about the Polyclar, I used to stir it for 20 mins but now I do the boiling water trick as well. It doesn't degrade it and in fact there is a type of Polyclar you can add to the kettle (Brewbrite).


----------



## Nick JD

BribieG said:


> Nick, just caught up with this thread. I was off the Internet at the Beginning of May while moving house. Awesome tutorial. I've recently brewed up a batch of Oz Lager for a forthcoming comp and it's amazing just how close you can get. I find a great addition is 300g of Carapils to give a long lasting creamy head and lacing, although it lifts the beer more into premium class and away from swill class. I agree with you about the Polyclar, I used to stir it for 20 mins but now I do the boiling water trick as well. It doesn't degrade it and in fact there is a type of Polyclar you can add to the kettle (Brewbrite).



I think leaving the sugar out elbows it out of the swill class too - lowering the body lowers the head retention a little. I often sneak in a few hundred grams (10%) of wheat malt and that also slips it into the "nice beer" category! I've moved all lagers now to S189, possibly the finest dry yeast available. Not much difference in taste with 34/70, but much easier to use :icon_cheers: .

I'm about to finish the last bottle of my best lager yet with two additions of green bullet to 25IBU - an Aussie Lager with the PoR substituted for GB is sensational. Just bought a kilo of PoR and a kilo of Cluster, so there's plenty more refining to come...

Does Brewbrite take out the chill haze in the kettle? So chill haze isn't a yeast by-product? Hmmm, will check that out.


----------



## Bribie G

Chill haze is caused by Polyphenol-Protein complexes that get carried over into the fermenter as part of the cold break. Brewbrite is a mixture of a PVPP cousin of Polyclar and Irish Moss and I guess that when added to the kettle in the last ten minutes of boiling it flocs the Polyphenols down to the bottom of the kettle as part of the hot break instead of the cold break. It's hard to get hold of - Tidal Pete and I are getting some from a Member who bought a sack some time ago - apparently the only way you can get it at the moment - at $30 a kilo. Said anonymous guy brought a keg along to Chapchap's brew day and it was cold and crystal.


I'm keen to trial it, if it works hey we might even see about a BB? I wonder if we can get it from China?

Here we go again :blink:

I've looked on the Polyclar product range page and apparently the Polyclar VT that we get is really for the wine industry, but obviously works with beer. Be nice to have the version-for-beer instead. However as you can imagine a Polyclar/Irish Moss mix would probably cruel the sales of Whirlfloc by Home Brew suppliers so it's understandable that they stick to their tried and tested product range.


----------



## MarkBastard

That sounds awesome Bribie.


----------



## Nick JD

BribieG said:


> Here we go again :blink:



Powdered melamine has just so many uses! :lol: Delicious beer ... why do my kidneys hurt?


----------



## Acasta

How much Swiss Voile is needed to make a bag to fit into the 20L pot roughly?
What do you do with your sparge and green bucket sugazzzzz? Back into the 19L pot and let it all cool together?
How important is the gelatine and whirfloc? For the 1st few brews is it nesecary?
I had more questions but forgot them. Im suring ill post more soon.


----------



## Bribie G

If you get a metre and a half from Spotlight you are just about on the money. Then take it to your local curtain lady to get a bag made up. I would (no affiliation) go a bag from Gryphon brewing. By the time you have paid someone to make the bag, driven to and from spotlight etc etc you are definitely ahead and the thing is just about everlasting.

I use a 40L urn and can't comment on the sparging, plenty on the forum who do, however and will help you.

For your first few brews, if you aren't worried too much with clarity, forget the gelatine and polyclar, won't affect the flavour too much. It's an extra stage you can bring in later when you have become comfortable with what you are already doing.


----------



## RdeVjun

Acasta said:


> How much Swiss Voile is needed to make a bag to fit into the 20L pot roughly?
> What do you do with your sparge and green bucket sugazzzzz? Back into the 19L pot and let it all cool together?
> How important is the gelatine and whirfloc? For the 1st few brews is it nesecary?
> I had more questions but forgot them. Im suring ill post more soon.


Yeah, like Bribie says, maybe a metre and a half of fabric and I'd be happy. A couple of measly dollars for one of the most foolproof and simple lautering interfaces/ manifolds around!  

With sparge liquor, yes- add it to the stockpot for the boil, it definitely does need to be boiled. If there's too much to fit it all in at the beginning of the boil, that's fine, use it to fill the stockpot almost to the brim to start the boil, then just use the leftovers to top up evaporation losses during it. This will increase efficiency and translates to more beer in bottles/ keg.
Start heating sparge water before the mash is due to finish, I just run a couple of batches through my 1.75L domestic kettle- you want to lift the bag, give it a gentle squeeze and dunk it into the bucket with the hot sparge water so it needs to be ready beforehand. If you're using a 10L plastic bucket, just add 3 or 4 litres to start with, dunk the bag, stir the mash and then top it up from the kettle. I always stir it thoroughly a couple of times, lift the bag after 10 minutes and drain into the bucket- sparging is just a simple rinsing process and will become second nature with this method. If the sparge liquor is >1.030 I will redo it, perhaps with a bit less water than the first pass, though any excess sparge liquor that doesn't fit into the boil can be used for yeast starter propagation (ditto with kettle trub- drain it through a sieve).
A couple of tips for adding sparge- I wouldn't add any later than 10 minutes from the end of the boil, also pre- heating it will mean that the boil isn't paused by adding cooler liquor- I use the microwave! 

WRT gelatine and Whirlfloc- no, not absolutely necessary at all, your first beer will still most likely be fantastic without either of them. I use Whirlfloc in the boil, does a fairly good job at precipitating gunk, occasionally I use gelatine in the fermenter and add it with some hops tea, when I can be bothered but next up I'm trying agar just for an experiment. But initially, you don't need to use them at all, they're just an incremental change you can make to refine your beers.
Chill haze is about the only fault (largely cosmetic) that these two additives don't take care of either separately or combined, but I find that it is only occasional anyway, it doesn't worry me so I just ignore it, Polyclar or BrewBrite as BribieG mentions should sort out chill haze if it really bothers the brewer. A longer boil (90- 120 minutes) can help to make a brighter, clearer beer too, it can also pick up a hint of caramel from this which is quite a helpful little bonus for ESBs in particular.

I've said this a few times before, but I'll repeat it again- I actually have a couple of stainless firkins (40L kegs), gas burner, esky and bibs & bobs set aside for a multi- vessel brew rig, but I don't really see the need now to actually build it as this very simple method produces excellent beer from a trivial equipment outlay and so simply with minimal fuss, all that gear has become largely redundant to me now. If you're already brewing kits then you don't need much additional equipment to start AG at all! (/ob plug!)

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity.


----------



## Siborg

Well done Nick... another great thread!

You've actully inspired me to put down a simple lager on the stovetop now. I haven't done one since I subbed manticles recipe in to your method. 

I've done a few AG batches on my setup, but the effort of setting up and ceaning everything has been putting me off. I will definitly get back into it when spring/summer comes around, but in the meant time I just CBF...

However, I've been meaning to do a lager while the weather is cold, and a stovetop means I can do it from the comfort of my ducted-heated home and watch some TV while I'm brewing.

I might play with the recipe a bit... maybe a touch of carapils or wheat or both... maybe some rice.

Again: Excellent post Nick!

P.S. was that special note around the hops in the bag relating to the balls up I did?


----------



## thanme

Man...You make me feel like a bit of a pussy for not wanting to try 5kg of grain in my 30L urn....

Anyway, how big a grain bill would you tackle with your setup?? And is that just a 20L stock pot you're doing your boil in?


----------



## Acasta

Hi just went to get a coffee grinder and after checking it out i realised that my Foor processor (like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_processor) would proberly do the same thing but in a bigger batch right? Would the Food processor work?

Also, do you need to crush up the specialty grains? ie Carapils and stuff?


----------



## Nick JD

NME said:


> Anyway, how big a grain bill would you tackle with your setup?? And is that just a 20L stock pot you're doing your boil in?



I get the best efficiency with 3.5kg of grain and a fermenter volume of 15-18L (boil of 12-15L). The sky's the limit with high gravity brewing but your efficiency will suffer, and possibly also your flavour. 4.5kg in a 19L pot is doable.

As Thirsty has said before, liquid malt extract is high gravity brewing taken to the extreme.


----------



## Nick JD

Acasta said:


> Hi just went to get a coffee grinder and after checking it out i realised that my Foor processor (like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_processor) would proberly do the same thing but in a bigger batch right? Would the Food processor work?
> 
> Also, do you need to crush up the specialty grains? ie Carapils and stuff?



Food processors are great for chopping, but not so good for grinding. Yes, you need to mill all your grains, even the spec ones.


----------



## Acasta

Ah kk thanks mate. Also, maybe the coffee grinder i was looking at was not so good? All it was was a blade that spun inside the cylinder.


----------



## RdeVjun

NME said:


> Man...You make me feel like a bit of a pussy for not wanting to try 5kg of grain in my 30L urn....
> 
> Anyway, how big a grain bill would you tackle with your setup?? And is that just a 20L stock pot you're doing your boil in?


At least once a week I push through 4.5kg with a similar method for about 23-25L of 1.050, up to 5.5 kg if I'm feeling adventurous, but the smaller amount is a piece of cake.

No, not 20L but a 19L pot usually.  

Sorry if I've led anyone up the garden path with my slightly different method description from Nick's OP and humblest apologies for me not quite remembering exactly how this thread started :unsure: - for the record I'm using a slightly different method with more grain, filling the stockpot to the brim at mashing, use the sparge liquor and post- boil dilution as described above and it yields more beer out of the fermenter. (Works just great though..!! :icon_cheers: )


----------



## felten

Acasta said:


> Ah kk thanks mate. Also, maybe the coffee grinder i was looking at was not so good? All it was was a blade that spun inside the cylinder.


That is typically what a coffee grinder looks like


----------



## Acasta

So how come it differes from a Food Processor?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

RdeVjun said:


> At least once a week I push through 4.5kg with a similar method for about 23-25L of 1.050, up to 5.5 kg if I'm feeling adventurous, but the smaller amount is a piece of cake.
> 
> No, not 20L but a 19L pot usually.
> 
> Sorry if I've led anyone up the garden path with my slightly different method description from Nick's OP and humblest apologies for me not quite remembering exactly how this thread started :unsure: - for the record I'm using a slightly different method with more grain, filling the stockpot to the brim at mashing, use the sparge liquor and post- boil dilution as described above and it yields more beer out of the fermenter. (Works just great though..!! :icon_cheers: )



I found that my efficiencies were pretty average doing a 22L brew in a 19L pot. I now own 2 pots and split brews up between the two (plus I can do two "experimental" batches concurrently if not doing a full sized brew).

With efficiency - I obtained SWMBO's 9L stockpot with pasta strainer insert and used it to 1. Squeezey, without hanging bags on hooks above buckets and 2. Sparge using 76 degree water over the grain bag, squeezing each sparge. It's so simple and with minimal effort, you get the most use out of your grains.

And (at the cost of a possible flamewar) I'll probably never get a mash tun or 3V system. I can't justify the extra expense or time:

If I amortise the cost of the hardware over the cost of the brews it makes, I'd rather pay an extra 3 or 4 bucks for the extra 1/2 to 1kg of grain per brew, or sacrifice a litre or two of brew.

The time taken to clean, prepare and the like a tun or full system - I've got three anklebiters - I'd rather use the extra time to spend with them.

So RdeVjun - I'm with you. I won't front the expense of a massive system. I'm making beer for one person (plus associated beggars), not operating a brewery. If I'm desperate - I'll head down to Ross' and use his stuff.


----------



## Siborg

Hey Nick. I'm gonna put down a similar brew next week. What do you reckon 90% Ale, 10% Wheat? What about a bit of rice, and what do you do with it when you use it? I'll go with similar hop schedule.


----------



## marksy

This is my BIAB method. 

I use a 20L pot and 2 x 25 L fermentors. plus I use as many other big pots as i can find to boil up sparge water. 

I generally use about 4 - 4.5kg grain.

Im only fairly new at all grain so im not to worried about what im making atm just aslong as im getting good results and so far with about 12L - 15L for a mash and my grain i get around 1060ish give or take. It works so im quite happy.

So with all my pots i boil up as much water as i can even in my 20L pot. I scoop out the water of the 20L pot till about 12-15L. the rest i leave on the stove with lids on. about 15mins before mash ends i check the temp of the boiled water in the spare pots to see what sorta temp they are. Most the time they are still pretty hot. 

So then i grab my pot and put it on a upside down milk create, with my sparge water i fill the 1st fermentor up and attach a cheap plastic shower head and tube to the tap. I grab some racking hose and shove it down under the grain bag to the bottom and the other end in the 2nd fermentor and i syphon away while i turn the tap on the 1st fermentor. I stirr all the grain aswell. 

once im down there i get a strainer big enough to sorta go just inside the 20L pot and sit the grain bag in there for a few mins let it drain, i also get the lid of the 20L pot and squash the reminder stuff out. 

Add the stuff from my 2nd fermentor and procced with boil. 

If you dont have a 2nd fermentor or all your spares are full just syphone from the pot. I just do it as its got a tap and i can turn it off as sometime the grain bag gets sucked into the syphon tube and it takes awhile and the water may over flow.


It sounds cheap but it works and its not that hard to do.


----------



## felten

Acasta said:


> So how come it differes from a Food Processor?


It's smaller?


----------



## Acasta

Not to argue or anything, just would like some good information;
If the food processor is the same, but bigger, wouldn't that mean it could do the same thing, with more grain?


----------



## Nick JD

Acasta said:


> Not to argue or anything, just would like some good information;
> If the food processor is the same, but bigger, wouldn't that mean it could do the same thing, with more grain?



Check out the way the blades on a coffee grinder have a weird end, and that the bowl is curved - I think this directs the circular motion in such a way that the largest particles are forced closest to the blades - and a constitent sized milling happens.


----------



## Acasta

Mkay, well Nick, if you say so ill go get me a coffee grinder! There $20 from aldi at the moment.


----------



## cam2584

Hey nick jsut wandering where did you sorce the grain from as I can find it on craft brewer or grain and grape 
cheers in advance


----------



## Nick JD

cam2584 said:


> Hey nick jsut wandering where did you sorce the grain from as I can find it on craft brewer or grain and grape
> cheers in advance



Can, or can't? If you _can_ find it then that's good, isn't it? 

I confused. :icon_cheers:


----------



## cam2584

Nick JD said:


> Can, or can't? If you _can_ find it then that's good, isn't it?
> 
> I confused. :icon_cheers:



sorry been trying the beer out that I put in keg yesterday I was ment to say I cant find it or I am probly jsut blind (in the eye sense)


----------



## manticle

Pretty sure that any regular pale malt will do for this recipe. If you can't find barrett burston, try Joe White or Bairds.

However craftbrewer bb ale malt is here: http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/product-search.asp


----------



## cam2584

cheers bud your a legend jsut priceing stuff asa i got some yeast here already


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

cam2584 said:


> cheers bud your a legend jsut priceing stuff asa i got some yeast here already




Not sure where u are cam but I discovered Dave from www.*greensboroughhomebrew*.com.au , he is fantastically cheap for small granbills, I got 4.7 kg of pils and wheat for $15, great bloke too!


----------



## cam2584

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Not sure where u are cam but I discovered Dave from www.*greensboroughhomebrew*.com.au , he is fantastically cheap for small granbills, I got 4.7 kg of pils and wheat for $15, great bloke too!
> 
> 
> in benalla bloke Ill bookmark it for a look later just slowly working out what I need thinking of doing it as cheap as possiale
> 
> 
> te]


----------



## Acasta

yeah i use dave too! good shop there. Its pretty close to to me aswell.


----------



## flano

does anyone know if those portable electric hotplates would have the balls to boil a 20 ltr brew like the this one?

They seem to range from about 1600 watt to 2000 watt.


----------



## manticle

If it's the hotplates I'm thinking of then no way (last time I used one I struggled to boil water for coffee). You may have a much bigger one in mind.


----------



## Nick JD

I think the big coil on my stove is an 8" coil - if it is, it's *2350W *from looking on the interwebs. 

Probably need > 2000W.


----------



## AussieJosh

OK! Im getting geard up to give this AG stove top thing a crack! today i got my 19L stock pot from Big W and my plastic Bucket!
i was looking at some grinders in a kitchen shop but they were over $100! So can anyone recomend a good place and brand for me to get a grinder for around $40 or less? Also a thermometer, also swiss Voile? 

Also..........

i live near brewcraft on north east road. Are there prices for grain and hops ok? or can i get them from some place much cheaper in the north east of adelaide? 

Cheers!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

AussieJosh said:


> OK! Im getting geard up to give this AG stove top thing a crack! today i got my 19L stock pot from Big W and my plastic Bucket!
> i was looking at some grinders in a kitchen shop but they were over $100! So can anyone recomend a good place and brand for me to get a grinder for around $40 or less? Also a thermometer, also swiss Voile?
> 
> Also..........
> 
> i live near brewcraft on north east road. Are there prices for grain and hops ok? or can i get them from some place much cheaper in the north east of adelaide?
> 
> Cheers!



see if your LHBS cracks grain or if you buy from a site sponsor, you can ask for it. Works fine.

I now use a pasta pot with insert strainer to sparge. I busted the first 9L plastic bucket.


----------



## Acasta

Aldi have/had coffee grinders for 20 bux, i got a clearance one for 13$ haha.
Find a kitchen place and get a candi thermometer (~$7) or dicksmith and get a digital one (~$15).
Swiss Voile, spotlight

The craftbrewer near me are expensive and don't have a good range. See what else is around.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

I agree with acasta, brewcraft are pretty pricey when you compair them to your LHBS.


----------



## flano

I am going to try this ...never done it before....never seen ...didn't know it could be done until I saw it on this website.
I just want to see it for myself and smell it etc..

I have got myself 4 kgs of JW traditional ale grain . It has been put through a mill already. 
Hope it doesn't matter that is not the same name grain as what you used Nick.
It isn't as finely milled as in the pic , willl that matter?

Got the POR hops and whirlfloc.

At what point in the boil do I put these 2 in and for how long?

My expectations are realistic ( 1st attempt )...Just hoping for a beer that is drinkable to not bad.



The Wife seems unstoked with the step up in weight division.

Cheers
norks.


----------



## kelbygreen

i think it says he was doing a 90min boil so id say POR was added at 90 or 60mins and whirfloc 15mins. The mill shouldnt matter I think its meant to be a bit finer for biab but I think it doesnt matter if you make it ultra fine as the bag holds it in. you should be fine


----------



## flano

getting hold of this swiss violle is turning into a mission.

Lincraft only had the cotton gear.
Tried the local HBS he only sells those cheese cloth hop bags ...doubt that will be big enough.
I got a couple for future things.

what Yeast are you using ?

safale US-05 ok ?


Got a 19 litre pot from Big W this morning ...$19 .00 . 

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

beernorks said:


> getting hold of this swiss violle is turning into a mission.
> 
> Lincraft only had the cotton gear.
> Tried the local HBS he only sells those cheese cloth hop bags ...doubt that will be big enough.
> I got a couple for future things.
> 
> what Yeast are you using ?
> 
> safale US-05 ok ?
> 
> 
> Got a 19 litre pot from Big W this morning ...$19 .00 .
> 
> Seems like a pretty good deal to me.




Safale is fine. I prefer Nottingham Yeast myself for these type of beers, but that's just personal preference based on the yeast's characteristics.

Be careful whom you ask at Lincraft, they sometimes have idiots that don't know what is what. Anything made from Polyester or nylon that allows grain to stay but wort to get through is fine. Look around and look at what appears practical. I got some from the local lincraft quite fine.

Hope this helps you out.

Goomba


----------



## kocken42

I picked up some Polyester Voile from Spotlight last weekend, which wasn't too hard to find at all...

It was in with all the curtain matierial... or the 'behind' cutain material used to pretty up a 7 year old girls windows...there was cotton, nylon, poly in a range of colours and different patterns. It was $6.99/m, so I went for 2m and only got charged $10.50 (?). 2m x 1.5m is heaps, think i'll have enough for a BIAB bag, hop sock and some left to pretty up my own windows


----------



## keifer33

I got Bohemian voile , 100% cotton. Anyone know if this is similar to Swiss voile or a decent substitute. Used it to steep some spec grains and seemed fine but haven't for an ag yet .


----------



## Nevalicious

AussieJosh said:


> OK! Im getting geard up to give this AG stove top thing a crack! today i got my 19L stock pot from Big W and my plastic Bucket!
> i was looking at some grinders in a kitchen shop but they were over $100! So can anyone recomend a good place and brand for me to get a grinder for around $40 or less? Also a thermometer, also swiss Voile?
> 
> Also..........
> 
> i live near brewcraft on north east road. Are there prices for grain and hops ok? or can i get them from some place much cheaper in the north east of adelaide?
> 
> Cheers!



Mate, I used to go there all the time (brewcraft, modbury) before I kept getting a bunch of bad advice (boil those grains, son!) and started to get sick of the prices... Used one of the site sponsers for a bit for spec grains and such, but now I just head over and see Wayne at Beerbelly (McGowan St, Pooraka)... Lovely bloke, hates a chat  and his prices are great. Will crush your grain (as most LHBS's will do) for nix and has most of the gear you're gonna need! Also, if you need any special taps, hop filters, false bottoms etc later on in your beer-travels, I'm sure he'd be able to help out. I'm yet to expand my brewery too far, but when I do, his proximity to my place is definitely going to be the deciding factor. I'm only 10 odd mins away at Greenwith. (must be said, no affiliation etc etc, was starting to sound like an ad, just a happy customer)

Good luck dude

Tyler

edit: As everyone has mentioned, Spotlight and ask for swiss voile (voyell: pronounced??) I picked up a 4 m end of roll for $6, enough for a massive grain bag and 3 or 4 oversized hop bags! Happy hunting


----------



## kocken42

Thanks so much Nick for this guide and the previous BIAB guide. It gave me to info and confidence to give AG a go!

Just put down my first batch tonight! LCBA clone made to 21L


----------



## pk.sax

@ AussieJosh Breville coffee grinder at Kmart for 39 bux, regular price. Definitely getting reliable quality. I haven't tried aldi or anything, good scope for getting it cheap there if you shop around for it.


----------



## Ade42

Ive just found this thread also!, 

Bugger me, I had NO IDEA that you could make a AG batch so easy, Just spent $$$ on the weekend on bloody tins and fermentables! ill have to have a crack at this, thanks man


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Ade42 said:


> Ive just found this thread also!,
> 
> Bugger me, I had NO IDEA that you could make a AG batch so easy, Just spent $$$ on the weekend on bloody tins and fermentables! ill have to have a crack at this, thanks man




good on ya mate you won't look back, plenty of people will help you out if you get stuck too :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## davo4772

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Not sure where u are cam but I discovered Dave from www.*greensboroughhomebrew*.com.au , he is fantastically cheap for small granbills, I got 4.7 kg of pils and wheat for $15, great bloke too!




+4 for Dave.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Ade42 said:


> Ive just found this thread also!,
> 
> Bugger me, I had NO IDEA that you could make a AG batch so easy, Just spent $$$ on the weekend on bloody tins and fermentables! ill have to have a crack at this, thanks man



See if the bloke cracks the grain for you and you can save the money on the kmart coffee grinder.

I personally have never purchased a coffee grinder and with my 2 pot system (I managed to get a 2nd pot at big w on special for $11) and vege strainer/pasta pot sparge, got fantastic efficiencies.

Had this thought yesterday - the biggest jump from unhopped extract plus hops plus grains plus yeast to AG is the number of grains and the flexiblity of what you make jumps incredibly.

Goomba


----------



## flano

finally got my bags back from the sewing lady today.

tomorrow here we go!!!!

Thanks for the info Nick....all over the calculater now!

cheers
norks.


----------



## alfisti72

If I may respectfully suggest to the forum, that the "grinders" you are referring to are not, in truth, grinders at all. 

The small whirly blade items from breville et al are share their mode of action with the standard blender or food processor. 

A proper grinder has two surfaces that crush between them. Also called milling. 

I'm only pretty new to brewing but have been in the coffee game for a very long time. The advantage of milling over chopping is the consistency of the end product - that is, you can set your grinder or mill to produce a flour (grind) that is any desired grain size.. In a blender you can not. 

In an environment where control over grain size is crucial (coffee) a blender will never give results in the same ballpark as a grinder, even a cheap one. 

I'm not enough of a mash extraction expert to know how consistency of the milled grain size affects sugar extraction, but I'd hazard a guess that its not as big a deal. 

Dont take this post as a criticism, please. I learn so much each day from you guys. But my inner pedant couldnt read "grinder" when I saw pictures of blender. 

PS a Sunbeam EM 0450 for $149 will smash thru grains on a coarse setting all day and only stop when you stop feeding it.


----------



## Ade42

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> See if the bloke cracks the grain for you and you can save the money on the kmart coffee grinder.
> 
> I personally have never purchased a coffee grinder and with my 2 pot system (I managed to get a 2nd pot at big w on special for $11) and vege strainer/pasta pot sparge, got fantastic efficiencies.
> 
> Had this thought yesterday - the biggest jump from unhopped extract polus hops plus grains plus yeast t AG is the number of grains and the flexiblity of what you make jumps incredibly.
> 
> Goomba



Funny thing is, one of the LHBS (I spend my Saturdays driving all over town, yeast best at this one, tins best here.. etc) Does crack grain, As i was waiting in line (its the first Saturday ive ever had to wait?, in all of em, result of fathers day? ) The shop owners was telling the customer in front of me all bout how he needs 24 hours notice for a grain order, then they talked about biag, and i wandered off looking at tins and didn't hear anything else! so at least he does crack the grain. 

Ive only just realized that the sugar component of the beer is extracted from the grain, call me stupid but i had NO IDEA that all grain was what it said on the box.. ALL grain. so therfore a simple version of AG like this MUST produce better results than kits and addins. 

How long can you keep cracked grain for unused?


----------



## argon

You can keep cracked grain for a reasonable amount if time... I wouldn't exceed a month only if it's in a vacuum sealed bag and kept in q dry cool place. 

I recently did a batch with 15kg of grain I bought, milled and mixed, about 3 or 4 weeks ago. Bags were still airtight and had munch on some if the grain and was crunchy and fresh.

Sponsor's above will mill and mix for no extra charge and delivery cost is quite small. Just order it up when you need to. Up to about batch 30 or so in AG and always had it done for me.


----------



## Nick JD

The main reason I grind mine in a coffee grinder is it means I can buy base malt for $2.20 a kg instead of $4.00. 

That's almost half price, and why I don't mind spending 15 minutes gristificating. 

Most people will probably find that the difference between paying $4 a kg and milling at home will pay for a mill (a real one) in a year. 

Milling kgs of grain by being an organ grinder monkey is working for bananas though. Get some electricity onto it.


----------



## flano

I am wondering how I am going to fit 4 kg' of grain and 12 ltrs of water into this 19 litr Big W pot.

It fits on a dry run...when the water added I reckon I could be in for trouble.

also ...Have I got the hottest water around...66dgrs straight from the tap...is this normal?


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> I am wondering how I am going to fit 4 kg' of grain and 12 ltrs of water into this 19 litr Big W pot.
> 
> It fits on a dry run...when the water added I reckon I could be in for trouble.
> 
> also ...Have I got the hottest water around...66dgrs straight from the tap...is this normal?



That 4kg of grain is largely air - and that air is replaced with water. You'll fit it no worries. Add it a kg at a time and break up the bigger lumps with your mash paddle.

Calculate your strike temperature accurately - it's really important. Check out Grain and Grape's strike temp calculator: 

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

If you have 12L of water and 4kg of grain that's 25C and you want a 65C mash ... you need the 12L of water to be 70.3C.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

beernorks said:


> I am wondering how I am going to fit 4 kg' of grain and 12 ltrs of water into this 19 litr Big W pot.
> 
> It fits on a dry run...when the water added I reckon I could be in for trouble.
> 
> also ...Have I got the hottest water around...66dgrs straight from the tap...is this normal?




Yeah no probs, I add 13 ltrs of water and 4.9 kilos of grain :beerbang:

That is pretty hot, but don't forget to heat your water to about 72 so you hit stike temp after a bit of a stir.


----------



## flano

Nick JD said:


> That 4kg of grain is largely air - and that air is replaced with water. You'll fit it no worries. Add it a kg at a time and break up the bigger lumps with your mash paddle.
> 
> Calculate your strike temperature accurately - it's really important. Check out Grain and Grape's strike temp calculator:
> 
> http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm
> 
> If you have 12L of water and 4kg of grain that's 25C and you want a 65C mash ... you need the 12L of water to be 70.3C.



thanks mate.

I will be reffering ( maybe even posting ) to this thread while doing it tomorrow morning.


----------



## thylacine

beernorks said:


> I am wondering how I am going to fit 4 kg' of grain and 12 ltrs of water into this 19 litr Big W pot.
> 
> It fits on a dry run...when the water added I reckon I could be in for trouble.
> 
> My current process is to BIAB 3.1-3.2kg base grains with 200-300g Spec grains into 14L water. Big W pot. Mash-out to 78c, rest ten minutes. Pull bag and immerse in a second Big W pot with 8L @ 78c. Bring both pots to boil and transfer sparge pot into main kettle ASAP. After boil (evaporation & trub) I get 15L into my 16.5L fermenters. 1050-1060 OG. ie ex-fresh wort kit containers. Fermentation at the yeast's 'low-end' of its' recommended temperature range has prevented 'overflows'.


----------



## RdeVjun

My 2c for making this a breeze with the 19L stockpot and spill- prevention: 
1) Calculate your strike water volume and grain mass to completely fill it. 
2) When your water has reached strike temp, pull out a couple of litres into a jug and reserve. 
3) Add the bag and grain, stir and measure the mash temperature- if it is high, add a bit of cold and some of the reserved water, if low then add some boiling water from the kettle and some the reserved, if just right... I think you know what to do! Obviously, at this point you'd want the stockpot full to the brim.

That way, you haven't overfilled the kettle for the given grain mass PLUS you get to adjust the mash temp if your calculations weren't quite right AND you don't have spousie screaming blue murder when grain and stuff spills all over her nice shiny cooktop! For once, he/ she'll think you're just so considerate! B) 
(Then don't mess up with the dunk sparge- its more likely to overflow than the mash... :angry: )

I wouldn't sweat over a degree or two mash temp early on, it really isn't that critical and you'll still make some fabulous beer regardless! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Ade42 said:


> Funny thing is, one of the LHBS (I spend my Saturdays driving all over town, yeast best at this one, tins best here.. etc) Does crack grain, As i was waiting in line (its the first Saturday ive ever had to wait?, in all of em, result of fathers day? ) The shop owners was telling the customer in front of me all bout how he needs 24 hours notice for a grain order, then they talked about biag, and i wandered off looking at tins and didn't hear anything else! so at least he does crack the grain.
> 
> Ive only just realized that the sugar component of the beer is extracted from the grain, call me stupid but i had NO IDEA that all grain was what it said on the box.. ALL grain. so therfore a simple version of AG like this MUST produce better results than kits and addins.
> 
> How long can you keep cracked grain for unused?



If you want, you can make the evolution by moving on to unhopped malt extract, plus hops, plus yeast (and maybe some specialty grains, mash (soak) at 68 degrees C for an hour). This will give you the ability to flexibly formulate recipes, with the unhopped extract is a concentrate of what comes from the grain. But you don't have any hops in the extract (and it hasn't been stored for months or years), so you can work out how hopping affects flavour, bitterness and aroma. Working with yeast (and researching it) helps figure out how the yeast eats up the sugaz from the malt.

Hope this helps you out. 

Goomba


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

RdeVjun said:


> My 2c for making this a breeze with the 19L stockpot and spill- prevention:
> 1) Calculate your strike water volume and grain mass to completely fill it.
> 2) When your water has reached strike temp, pull out a couple of litres into a jug and reserve.
> 3) Add the bag and grain, stir and measure the mash temperature- if it is high, add a bit of cold and some of the reserved water, if low then add some boiling water from the kettle and some the reserved, if just right... I think you know what to do! Obviously, at this point you'd want the stockpot full to the brim.
> 
> That way, you haven't overfilled the kettle for the given grain mass PLUS you get to adjust the mash temp if your calculations weren't quite right AND you don't have spousie screaming blue murder when grain and stuff spills all over her nice shiny cooktop! For once, he/ she'll think you're just so considerate! B)
> (Then don't mess up with the dunk sparge- its more likely to overflow than the mash... :angry: )
> 
> I wouldn't sweat over a degree or two mash temp early on, it really isn't that critical and you'll still make some fabulous beer regardless! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Edit: Clarity.



Got my 2nd big w pot by accident on special for $11. I now split the grain bill in 2 and mash it in the 2 pots I own. Makes it lots easier, because:

1. No overflows.
2. Easier to lift 2 x 2kg of wet grain bags (and if you choose to sparge, easier to sparge) than 1 x 4kg plus water wet grain bag.
3. Easier to avoid boil overs
4. Less watering down which means overall efficiency is far better.

Goomba


----------



## Acasta

I know its crazy, but theres an easy way to sparge/drain only using 1 pot and bucket. Just tie the bag around a stick and put the stick across 2 chairs or something, with the bucket underneath. This way you don't have to hold, and its cheaper then a hoist. When you wanna sparge, just pick the bag up, put it into bucket, untie and sparge then repeat


----------



## RdeVjun

Yep Lord Raja, different strokes for different folks, no doubt!  I'm just sold on this OP/ MaxiBIAB for simple, low- risk, low- cost entry into AG, just one of everything and its all commonly available, has trivial volume calculations but it still yields full- sized batches- its just one way and I realise there's others which are just as attractive, each has it features and failings. :icon_cheers:


----------



## flano

ok am in deep right now.

mid boil...all seems ok.

Did the messy stuff on the BBQ sideburner ...beam dircetly above me to hang the bag.

Got the pot on the boil ( inside the house on the stovetop )right now....was worried it was never going to boil.
All good now though.


The missus will be happy when she smells the house.



will give stats when finished.


----------



## Fents

david72 said:


> +4 for Dave.



+ ten housand million times a squillion.


----------



## flano

update...
the missus came home with about 15 to go of the boil and freaked out from the smell.
I knew she would .

anyway ...I have no idea how I went with efficiency.
this is what I got.
hope my terminology is correct here
71 dgrs mash in for 90 mins
66 dgrs mash out

did the extra sparge with another pot ...lots of squeezing ...hung it over a "green" brewers bucket.
1045 @ 60 dgrs probably about 18 ltrs.

60 min boil ..27 grms hops for half an hour... whilfloc for last 15 mins.

tasted it but Geeze I dunno what it should taste like toward the end of the boil.
sweet but bitter ..if that can be.

Stuck it in a laundry tub in an ice slurry .

gonna whack it in the fermenter a bit later .

I used 4 kgs of JW traditional ale and POR pellets.
I have 2 dif yeasts..safale s-04 and us-05
any tips for which one I should use???



oh and I'm banned from doing it in the house again.


----------



## MarkBastard

US05 at 16 degrees will make a decent fake lager.

Yep post boil wort tastes sweet and bitter.


----------



## MarkBastard

Nick JD said:


> The main reason I grind mine in a coffee grinder is it means I can buy base malt for $2.20 a kg instead of $4.00.
> 
> That's almost half price, and why I don't mind spending 15 minutes gristificating.
> 
> Most people will probably find that the difference between paying $4 a kg and milling at home will pay for a mill (a real one) in a year.
> 
> Milling kgs of grain by being an organ grinder monkey is working for bananas though. Get some electricity onto it.



If you buy more than 5kg of the same malt from craft brewer you get a discount of $1 per kg.

So if people just order two batches at a time it'll be $3 per kg for BB ale malt.

Could be handy for beginners as it cuts out the need to use a grinder.


----------



## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> Could be handy for beginners as it cuts out the need to use a grinder.



Excellent point.


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> 1045 @ 60 dgrs probably about 18 ltrs.



That's 18L of 1.061 ... which is outstanding for 4kg of grain. 

+1 on the US05, although S189 (Swiss Lager) is the stuff if you can keep the temp between 10 and 14C.


----------



## flano

OG was 1050

I tasted the hydro reading and it was very bitter...will this die down once it all settles down etc??


----------



## RdeVjun

beernorks, anyone who can predict with much accuracy the final state of the beer from an OG sample has my respect... especially considering there's yeast yet to do its thing!  
In all seriousness, if you've added the ingredients at the right time and right place, there's very little that can go so wrong as to wreck your beer, brewing is actually quite forgiving, so just relax and have a cold one! :icon_cheers:


----------



## flano

RdeVjun said:


> beernorks, anyone who can predict with much accuracy the final state of the beer from an OG sample has my respect... especially considering there's yeast yet to do its thing!
> In all seriousness, if you've added the ingredients at the right time and right place, there's very little that can go so wrong as to wreck your beer, brewing is actually quite forgiving, so just relax and have a cold one! :icon_cheers:




haha...cheers

good idea..

..great idea!



one other thing...in hindsight i doubt i ended up with 18 litres after the bag hang and squeeze...more like 17 .


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

beernorks said:


> haha...cheers
> 
> good idea..
> 
> ..great idea!
> 
> 
> 
> one other thing...in hindsight i doubt i ended up with 18 litres after the bag hang and squeeze...more like 17 .




Great Job beernorks :super: 

+1 for BIAB


----------



## manticle

beernorks said:


> one other thing...in hindsight i doubt i ended up with 18 litres after the bag hang and squeeze...more like 17 .



Have you ever measured a bee's dick?


----------



## flano

update:

nearly finished fermenting ..tasted the hyrdo sample yesterday and ..bloody hell tastes like beer!!!

and not that crappy home brew from the can taste.
Got a huge amount of sediment going on...probably rack it and gellatine in a fridge for a few days.
started at 1050 looking like being done at 1010.

Bitterness is great ....a world away from the sample I had straight from the pot.


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> ..bloody hell tastes like beer!!!



That's the thing people doing K&K often don't realise - home made AG, even with very simple equipment is usually _better than most of the beer_ at the bottlo. Mainly because the recipes are formulated with love of beer, not profit in mind.

One of the coolest aspects of AG at home is the ability to make reasonably accurate clones of some very expensive beers, meld styles to your personal tastes and even make the occasional beer that freaks the shit out of you _(he says drinking a smoked beer that tastes like pea and ham soup)_. 

The beer world's now your oyster.

Other things aside, the real secret to great beer is *great yeast* kept comfortable.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> That's the thing people doing K&K often don't realise - home made AG, even with very simple equipment is usually _better than most of the beer_ at the bottlo. Mainly because the recipes are formulated with love of beer, not profit in mind.
> 
> One of the coolest aspects of AG at home is the ability to make reasonably accurate clones of some very expensive beers, meld styles to your personal tastes and even make the occasional beer that freaks the shit out of you _(he says drinking a smoked beer that tastes like pea and ham soup)_.
> 
> The beer world's now your oyster.
> 
> Other things aside, the real secret to great beer is *great yeast* kept comfortable.



Yup. The other thing is that going from K & K to anything, means separating out the hops from the malt, which has several implications:

1. You choose the hop profile from start to finish (which means actually understanding the role hops play);
2. Extract is generally in better condition than Kit goo, and you can mix this according to your tastes; and
3. As a result of not having a yeast "under the lid", more often than not this means researching yeasts, whereas "chuck it in" was the only thing one thought of. The number of times I've replied to brewers who've been doing this for a long time, but finally figured to try new yeast is phenomenal.

The biggest jump in quality I've said was going from K&K to Extract, plus hops, plus yeast. The AG jump wasn't as big, but customisability is the hugest jump. Having <i>that</i> much extra ingredients that so many malts give makes a massive difference to what you can produce. And +1 to BIAB via Nick's method (albeit I customised the method to my liking) - it really is dead simple - do the prac and then research the theory again and go back and forth until all these funky concept start to make sense. Worked for me.


Goomba


----------



## boriskane

hey, 

firstly, awesome thread, been reading the all-grain biab ones non-stop and soaking in all the info!

i just got a 19L pot from Big W, and im wondering what the maximum amount of grain/water i can get in there is? 

doing an apa with:
3kg BB Ale Malt
0.700kg JW Munich Malt
0.300kg Caramalt (leftovers)

also, whats the trade off in fermentability between the ale malt and munich? think i should change the grain bill?

(i just ran out of my brewing software trial and im on a mac, so i want to wait until beersmith comes out before spending the money on another program)

cheers!


----------



## keifer33

Can always give this a go.

http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe


----------



## Nick JD

boris kane said:


> i just got a 19L pot from Big W, and im wondering what the maximum amount of grain/water i can get in there is?



The amount that it doesn't spill over the sides! 

For your first go, fill the 19L pot up to half full - 9.5L (write all these volumes and weights down so you'll have it perfect next time) and bring that water up to strike temperature.

In another pot on another element, bring maybe 4-6L up to the same strike temperature. 

Bang your grain in the 19L pot and stir - break up the lumps so none of the grain is floating. 

Add as much hot water from your smaller pot as you need to bring it up to a safe level, noting how much water in total you've added with your 4kg of grain. 

Next time round you'll be able to get it _exactly _right - with as little freeboard in the pot as you dare. You only need that extra pot of strike water to get your volume correct the first time. Measure the water accurately for your second batch, and scratch a mark on the outside of the pot and you can forget about it. 

Don't worry about getting the maximum water to grain ratio - you'll still get good efficiency if the mash is a bit porridgey.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Or if possible - buy two big w pots and split the grain bill.

That works for me, though I was fortunate to get pot no 2 on special.

Make sure you break up the dough balls, whatever you do.

Goomba


Edit: to make sense


----------



## boriskane

thanks for the site keifer it helps for working it all out

thanks nic: so after topping up the mash with that additional strike water, i should also still sparge with enough to fill up the pot for the boil/replace my losses from the mash, yes?

@ goomba, yeah wasn't as lucky as you were unfortunately, they were still at $20. and cheers ill make sure to do that


----------



## Nick JD

boris kane said:


> thanks nic: so after topping up the mash with that additional strike water, i should also still sparge with enough to fill up the pot for the boil/replace my losses from the mash, yes?



Your 4kg of grain will remove about 4-5L of water from your pot (after you've squeezed the bag and returned that to it).

Your sparge can't be more than this or you'll have an overflow. This method of high-gravity brewing relies on topping up the fermenter, so always err on the "less" side in all your calculations. And remember that if you're boiling your hops in 1.065 liquor, you need to up the hops by about 20% to get the desired bitterness.

Also, You only want < 16L of liquor in your 19L pot when you're bringing it to the boil to allow for foaming and expansion.

It sounds complicated until you do it. Then it sounds very easy. Just don't get pissed when you are doing it!


----------



## boriskane

Nick JD said:


> It sounds complicated until you do it. Then it sounds very easy. Just don't get pissed when you are doing it!



yeah no better way to learn than first hand experience. ill make sure i keep this thread close by

cant wait to put this down tomorrow, eager to see what this slippery slope called AG looks like! :icon_cheers:


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

boris kane said:


> yeah no better way to learn than first hand experience. ill make sure i keep this thread close by
> 
> cant wait to put this down tomorrow, eager to see what this slippery slope called AG looks like! :icon_cheers:



you wont look back, good luck :icon_drunk:


----------



## argon

Nick JD said:


> * Just don't get pissed when you are doing it!*



Best. Advice. Ever... I always fcuk things up when I drink during a brew session.


----------



## manticle

Au contraire - some of my best brews have been made while half cut. Maybe just not the first few - get a grip on the process, then it becomes a bit more automatic.

Whichever side of sobriety you are during mash-in though, a few beers are mandatory while brewing.

Otherwise the brewing demon sets fire to your hops and drinks all your sanitiser.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

manticle said:


> Au contraire - some of my best brews have been made while half cut. Maybe just not the first few - get a grip on the process, then it becomes a bit more automatic.
> 
> Whichever side of sobriety you are during mash-in though, a few beers are mandatory while brewing.
> 
> Otherwise the brewing demon sets fire to your hops and drinks all your sanitiser.
> [/quote
> 
> Agreed, I have started having a brew or too now but i set the alarms on my phone to remind me when to add what.
> 
> recently i went to the gym when i was mashing, that's just wrong :icon_vomit:


----------



## DU99

i dont drink and brew at the same time ,mistakes can happen...sometimes the mistakes can make a top brew,or :icon_drunk:


----------



## Nick JD

Once I suddenly remembered I had a batch boiling away about 2 hours after adding the hops. Luckily it was an Aussie Lager and a high-grav brew - but I'd almost made canned goop.

The beer was pretty awesome in the end - if there are undesirable flavours made by boiling high gravity then they're very hard to taste. This was probably boiled down to 1.100. No DMS issues anyway!

Drink all you want once you're familiar with your gear. And get a new 9V battery for your fire alarm, sleeping beauty.


----------



## flano

I play guitar in a band and have learnt the hard way ...don't drink before a gig.

Funnily enough if I have a few beers once we have started playing I am fine .

Maybe this rule can be used with brewing as well.


----------



## Nick JD

I call that the Pool Playing Paradox. 

For me, it's between 1.5 and 2L of normal strength beer. Less, or more than this and I'm crap at pool.


----------



## boriskane

so my brewday has been postponed until wednesday night, damn weekend work.

but it also reminded me that i should ask about a hopping schedule for this recipe:

3kg BB Ale Malt
0.700kg JW Munich Malt
0.300kg Caramalt (leftovers)

US05

ive got 100g of centennial and 10g of cascade (dry hop?). ive never used centennial before so hoping someone can tell me whats good? im targeting around 35 IBU


cheers


----------



## flano

ta da!

I have my first BIAB finished and kegged.

It tastes pretty much like any beer on tap you would buy in the pub.

I am very impressed and would gladly use the same basic recipe for when I know I have mates coming around.

They are all just Tooheys new and VB drinkers and will think I am a genius when they taste this.

too easy ...scarey easy!
Thanks Nick and everyone else for putting info into this thread.

Can't really see myself going back to the fresh wort now.


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> ta da!



Nice one. If you start buying 25kg sacks of grain, reusing yeast and hops in kgs, a 19L keg will cost around $10 to fill.

Thing is though, now you can make any beer ... _in the world._


----------



## boriskane

just put down first BIAB using the 20L pot!

cheers for the method instructions you posted on the previous page Nick, really simple to follow and everything seemed to fall in place as per instructions.

recipe was
3.2kg Ale Malt
0.6kg Munich
0.3kg Caramalt
US05

25g Centennial @60
20g Centennial @20
20g Centennial @10
5g Centennial @5
30g Centennial DRY HOP

i hit a strike temp of ~73, but my thermometer isnt long enough to go all the way through the tun so i was left measuring about 5cm in, and it was saying my mash temp was 60 :unsure:. so im sure deeper inside the temp was warmer (?)

i got 1.060 (20C) for my preboil gravity with 15L of wort
then during the boil i lost 5L

and once i had filled up the fermenter to 23L my gravity was at 1.045. so with that and an assumed <1.010 final gravity because of the low mash temp. i should be looking at ABV 4.6% pre bottling (which adds 0.5%?), which is pretty decent.

how do i calculate my efficiency? curious to see how i went...

well it was a great experience and cannot believe i have to wait a couple weeks to get it in the bottle, maybe ill pop over to the lhbs and get a 25kg bag... so much for this weeks pay :drinks: 


boris


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

boris kane said:


> just put down first BIAB using the 20L pot!
> 
> cheers for the method instructions you posted on the previous page Nick, really simple to follow and everything seemed to fall in place as per instructions.
> 
> recipe was
> 3.2kg Ale Malt
> 0.6kg Munich
> 0.3kg Caramalt
> US05
> 
> 25g Centennial @60
> 20g Centennial @20
> 20g Centennial @10
> 5g Centennial @5
> 30g Centennial DRY HOP
> 
> i hit a strike temp of ~73, but my thermometer isnt long enough to go all the way through the tun so i was left measuring about 5cm in, and it was saying my mash temp was 60 :unsure: . so im sure deeper inside the temp was warmer (?)
> 
> i got 1.060 (20C) for my preboil gravity with 15L of wort
> then during the boil i lost 5L
> 
> and once i had filled up the fermenter to 23L my gravity was at 1.045. so with that and an assumed <1.010 final gravity because of the low mash temp. i should be looking at ABV 4.6% pre bottling (which adds 0.5%?), which is pretty decent.
> 
> how do i calculate my efficiency? curious to see how i went...
> 
> well it was a great experience and cannot believe i have to wait a couple weeks to get it in the bottle, maybe ill pop over to the lhbs and get a 25kg bag... so much for this weeks pay :drinks:
> 
> 
> boris



great work boris :icon_cheers: 

You mash temp would have been higher i think just from my expreience, if you didn't leave the lid open to long it should have 
been 67 to 68. Where it ended who knows depends on how many towels etc.

Would be interested if one of the members has a formula to work out efficiencies :beerbang:


----------



## Nick JD

boris kane said:


> ...and it was saying my mash temp was 60 :unsure:



It's all good.

If you went in at 73C and spent about 3 minutes paddling the mash then your mash temperature would have been ~67-68C. It's also probably why you got such a good efficiency. 

I would suggest to anyone starting out to err on the high side (65-70C mash, rather than a longer 60-65C) until you know your gear.

Measuring the temperature at the end of the mash is a good idea to know how your insulation is going. The least I've ever lost is 1.5C over 90 minutes, the most about 4C - and that's too much. I now use 2 towels and a "-5C" sleeping bag which if doubled over would nearly hold the mash temperature constant. Stirring can lose a lot of heat.


----------



## pk.sax

I just taste tested my first stovetop AG effort today too, even before sipping, smelt delicious - cascade and Amarillo. Thanks for the descriptions nick, method overall is a bit of too much farting around for me long term (read cleaning the kitchen instead of the equipment afterwards) but amazing for its simplicity.

And for a change, I will have to definitely cc it as it's cloudy from trub and yeast in a major effin way (no hop bag this time).


----------



## Nick JD

practicalfool said:


> ...method overall is a bit of too much farting around for me long term...



For sure. I don't use this method, but prefer to do 16-18L batches without sparging. 

Unfortunately this has started to snowball, where as I only really wrote it to show some of what's achievable when you push Stovetop brewing. 

For those who are serious about their move to AG I'd strongly suggest getting an urn and perhaps a pulley to hoist the bag. Simpler and you can punch out 25L of beer without any flippin' around.

One thing though, the intricacies of this method force the beginner to wrap their head around some complex brewing schemas, and for this it's good. Having to think about gravities and dilution and volumes and hop utilization is a great teaching tool for helping make more complete brewers earlier. 

I hate to say it but sometimes things like beersmith can stunt the learning process by making it easier in an obfuscative way.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> For sure. I don't use this method, but prefer to do 16-18L batches without sparging.
> 
> Unfortunately this has started to snowball, where as I only really wrote it to show some of what's achievable when you push Stovetop brewing.
> 
> For those who are serious about their move to AG I'd strongly suggest getting an urn and perhaps a pulley to hoist the bag. Simpler and you can punch out 25L of beer without any flippin' around.
> 
> One thing though, the intricacies of this method force the beginner to wrap their head around some complex brewing schemas, and for this it's good. Having to think about gravities and dilution and volumes and hop utilization is a great teaching tool for helping make more complete brewers.
> 
> I hate to say it but sometimes things like beersmith can stunt the learning process by making it easier in an obfuscative way.



+1 for articulate and insightful comment.

I use qbrew and we rely on the software to make the figures too much.

The big thing I found is that I did get my head around the theory by having some (simple) prac. I then used my equipment and experience to change my process to what suited and was easier, and now use qbrew to make sure I hit efficiencies and record notes, but not much else.

Goomba


----------



## boriskane

Nick JD said:


> One thing though, the intricacies of this method force the beginner to wrap their head around some complex brewing schemas, and for this it's good. Having to think about gravities and dilution and volumes and hop utilization is a great teaching tool for helping make more complete brewers.



i definitely agree with this, actually having to work through volume losses at different stages and constantly measuring amounts of water and making notes of how much i top up and sparge etc... and then calculating preboil gravity and how topping up the fermenter alters it has provided me with invaluable knowledge. 

i was playing around with a few other beer programs for a while and was met with this wall of information that no matter how much reading i did i was never going to understand until today.


----------



## pk.sax

Nick JD said:


> For sure. I don't use this method, but prefer to do 16-18L batches without sparging.
> 
> Unfortunately this has started to snowball, where as I only really wrote it to show some of what's achievable when you push Stovetop brewing.
> 
> For those who are serious about their move to AG I'd strongly suggest getting an urn and perhaps a pulley to hoist the bag. Simpler and you can punch out 25L of beer without any flippin' around.
> 
> One thing though, the intricacies of this method force the beginner to wrap their head around some complex brewing schemas, and for this it's good. Having to think about gravities and dilution and volumes and hop utilization is a great teaching tool for helping make more complete brewers earlier.
> 
> I hate to say it but sometimes things like beersmith can stunt the learning process by making it easier in an obfuscative way.



Too true about the software, I have found excel more than enough to do the minor calcs and adjustments to recipes I can see on here and then, have brewpal on the phone to do quick hob sub calcs etc and not much more. The complicated softwares shouldn't be allowed to kick in until you start balancing your own beers! Which, honestly, I am not anywhere near and trying to micromanage that will only put me off at this stage.

I'm thinking of going for a more 2v setup with some way of retaining the great sparge/drain exposure the biab gives incorporated in it.

hehe.. btw, the whole tightarse mashing and boiling did make me think about possible ways to monitor the gravity of the wort during the process if I am to build any type of rig that will actually improve the beer through the hardware (not the process), something like pressure sensors at defined volume points to measure the head difference for given volume of wort to chart how the sugar concentration changes and then improving on it.


----------



## theredone

ok guys so im realy realy looking forward to moving to ag, however, i wont be getting an urn until after xmas, and i dont realy want to go and buy a bigger pot. i do have an 11.5ltr pot, so my question is, can i do half batches useing this biab method? also it does no harm to a beer having only a half batch in a 30ltr fermenter does it? 

it would be great if i am able to do this, would give me a chance to get used to biabing b4 i get an urn, and also i could simple do 2 same styled beers at a time as i have a fridge big enough for 2 fermenters, this would eliminate any stock problems.

anyways what do you think?

cheers guys


----------



## Nick JD

theredone said:


> ok guys so im realy realy looking forward to moving to ag, however, i wont be getting an urn until after xmas, and i dont realy want to go and buy a bigger pot. i do have an 11.5ltr pot, so my question is, can i do half batches useing this biab method? also it does no harm to a beer having only a half batch in a 30ltr fermenter does it?
> 
> it would be great if i am able to do this, would give me a chance to get used to biabing b4 i get an urn, and also i could simple do 2 same styled beers at a time as i have a fridge big enough for 2 fermenters, this would eliminate any stock problems.
> 
> anyways what do you think?
> 
> cheers guys



Check out this thread.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=38674


----------



## keifer33

Just a quick question as im just getting ready to start my first AG as per this thread. How long can I leave the wort in the pot? In the guide it says overnight but Im planning on finishing approx 3pm today and then when I get home from work tomorrow night at around 6pm throwing it in the fermenter. Is this similar to the no-chill method or a slight variant?


----------



## RdeVjun

kiefer33, I've left the stockpot full of wort for >36hours before emptying into the fermenter, no problems, but obviously the longer it is left the greater risk of some infection finding its way in. 
You're quite right, it really isn't that different to no- chill as it is just containing the wort in a sanitary vessel but still on the kettle trub, whereas no chill is off the trub. I chill mine in the laundry tub, also yields few changes of cooling water which can be put to good use for cleaning up the mess.
If you have any flying insects or dust that may get through the tiny vent hole in the lid, it would help to place a layer of cling film over the whole lid and leave it until you're ready. I do that with lager worts in particular, they need refrigeration to get down to pitching temperature, invariably there's drips of condensation inside the fridge which could spoil things if they got into the wort.


----------



## keifer33

Thanks RdeVjun, I think I will try the no-chill-kettle method this time and will invest in some extra cubes to no chill properly for my next AG. I like the idea of splitting the brew day so it doesn't take so long.

Will report back if I have any issues.


----------



## boriskane

i just put the centennial pale ale with US05 into the fermenter on thursday afternoon, and went to check the gravity today and it was at 1.008. made sure my hydrometer was calibrated correctly and it was; then i took a couple of readings from the fermenter and they were the same. 

is it possible that it went from 1.045 to 1.008 in 3 days? i had heavy krausen and bubbling within 24 hours and the fermentation temp is at 18-22. would it have anything to do with a possible low mash temp?


----------



## keifer33

Given if it was 18-22 on the fermenter temp gauge add a few more degrees on inside and that's 20-24c so its definitely possible. Recently stuffed up temperatures on my last 2 brews and it went from 1.048 - 1.010 in just under 2 days as it was at approx 24-26c inside the fermenter.


----------



## RdeVjun

boris, I wouldn't be too concerned about the low FG. A fast ferment of low- mashed wort can leave it tasting a bit ordinary and low on the good flavours we want, but should still be still excellent comparatively speaking. Often my low- mashed UK Bitters get to 1.008 and lower with high attenuators like 1469, but don't lack at all for character, I'm after a quite dry beer.

No worries keifer, I do that overnight cooling all the time, makes for a simple process, shorter brewday(s) and no extra equipment (chiller etc) plus I get the 'free' warm water to clean up with! I've also poured from the kettle into a No- Chill cube through a sieve in a big funnel, but it isn't for the feint of heart, syphoning is probably better (no HSA problems either). I'd just be wary if you're leaving it to cool un- assisted, I've not done that in- situ and if the temperature doesn't get down low enough quick enough then it may increase the bittering and offset the late additions, but seeing as No- Chill works then it should be OK. The other concern some might have is the break material, but I think we've worked out that the impact is probably minimal. If you can though, I'd recommend to pop it into the laundry/ bath tub for cooling, but it is up to you and worthwhile to try in- situ if that suits.


----------



## boriskane

hmm yeah cheers guys.

would it be best to wait a few days and then to rack, cc, prime?

or to wait for another week or so so everything settles down and the yeast do some cleaning up?

curious to know whether the flavour will mellow out further over time, or whether it will enhance, because when i tasted it it was pretty dry with no lingering of either a malty flavour or a profound bittering one.


cheers


----------



## flano

just say I get an urn for BIAB..

how do you cool the wort down down??

do i need one of those big coils things??

or can I just cling film the top and let it cool naturally?

by the way had some mates around and they loved my first effort!!!!


----------



## tavas

beernorks said:


> just say I get an urn for BIAB..
> 
> how do you cool the wort down down??
> 
> do i need one of those big coils things??
> 
> or can I just cling film the top and let it cool naturally?
> 
> by the way had some mates around and they loved my first effort!!!!



I no chill straight into a plastic 20 ltr jerry can. Add 1/2 a tablet of whirlfloc about 15 mins prior to the end of your boil, switch off and let the convection settle (about5-10 minutes), then gently begin your whirlpool and let it settle for 10 mins, then either decant off or pour from the tap.

I replaced the urn tap with a 1/2" SS ball vale with a 3/8" barbed nipple. 3/8" silicon hose slips straight onto the nipple. Drop the other end into your cube/jerry can and Bob's your mother's brother. Usual notes about sanitation yadda yadda.

Or yes you can use a chiller coil. Your preference really. I don't only because I an't be arsed.


----------



## keifer33

Well I just finished my first attempt at AG and overall quite disappointed with my results. Started out promising with perfect mash temps and time. Then came the sparging which didn't go very well at all as far as extracting sugars and ended up with around 12lts of water at 1.056 (temp corrected via beersmith). Thought it might be ok but got only 9lts into the fermenter when topped up to 20lt got me a measly 1.030/32 which was too low. Beersmith recons 50% efficiency which is s***house and after doing a handful of partials got nothing this low. So had to scrounge around and found 500g LDME which I dissolved in 1 litre of water and added it to as I calced it save my brew and bring it back up to around 1.40ish.

The chilling in the sink worked a treat and I had 10lts of pre-chilled water to go which got me spot on my temperature until I had to add the boiling water so just waiting for the fermenter to cool a few more degrees before pitching.

Think I may try again soon but will definitely get a better bag than the voile (couldnt find swiss voile in time and had to use cotton voile) one I have as it just held to much water and the crack of the grain might have been too coarse for BIAB so might look at coffee grinder for the next one.


----------



## tavas

keifer33 said:


> Well I just finished my first attempt at AG and overall quite disappointed with my results. Started out promising with perfect mash temps and time. Then came the sparging which didn't go very well at all as far as extracting sugars and ended up with around 12lts of water at 1.056 (temp corrected via beersmith). Thought it might be ok but got only 9lts into the fermenter when topped up to 20lt got me a measly 1.030/32 which was too low. Beersmith recons 50% efficiency which is s***house and after doing a handful of partials got nothing this low. So had to scrounge around and found 500g LDME which I dissolved in 1 litre of water and added it to as I calced it save my brew and bring it back up to around 1.40ish.
> 
> The chilling in the sink worked a treat and I had 10lts of pre-chilled water to go which got me spot on my temperature until I had to add the boiling water so just waiting for the fermenter to cool a few more degrees before pitching.
> 
> Think I may try again soon but will definitely get a better bag than the voile (couldnt find swiss voile in time and had to use cotton voile) one I have as it just held to much water and the crack of the grain might have been too coarse for BIAB so might look at coffee grinder for the next one.



My first AG was similar. Low efficiency, low post boil volume, low OG. Tasted so bad I ended up throwing it away. 18 bottles didn't carb and 2 exploded. Wasn't anything wrong with the method per se, more in the excution. But I'll be buggered if I know what I did wrong. Keep trying. Up to my 5th batch, the taste has gone from vile to palatable, but certainly not the droolworthy that I was expecting.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

tavas said:


> My first AG was similar. Low efficiency, low post boil volume, low OG. Tasted so bad I ended up throwing it away. 18 bottles didn't carb and 2 exploded. Wasn't anything wrong with the method per se, more in the excution. But I'll be buggered if I know what I did wrong. Keep trying. Up to my 5th batch, the taste has gone from vile to palatable, but certainly not the droolworthy that I was expecting.



Same here, it was about 45-50% IIRC.

Sat down and thought about the process and what I could do better. I now mash as a rule for 90 minutes (though my 2nd batch I didn't, and was up in the 70s with my efficiency), I split the grain bill (for a full sized batch) over 2 big w pots, and I use the mrs vegesteamer/pasta pot with insert and use that to sparge, using minimum 4L per 2-2.5kg bag. It also means that I can squeeze without holding a bag up - just push it into the bottom of the strainer and liquid goes into pot.

I suggest you sit down and think about your process and your equipment and what you can do to get better efficiency. Sorry to hear about your frustration (it is painful after the effort put in), but stick with it - we all had that first BIAB batch and I use the stovetop method (with above alterations to procedure now) and get consistently 80% efficiency.

Good luck,

Goomba


----------



## tavas

Thanks Goomba.

I've made quite a few changes from my first. I now use a 40lt urn, and have just bought a digital temp controller for it. What I do now is heat my total water, draw off my mash water (2.5l/kg) into an esky and mash for 60 mins (usually at 66*C). While that's mashing I heat the remaining water to 72*C and dunk sparge for 10 minutes. Then hoist the bag (I use a pulley above the urn), add the mash water and start the boil.

The last batch (no 5) was the first one with this method. It is still in the fermenter so I can't comment on taste, but I am pretty comfortable with method. I got 77% eff post boil (approx 26 lts). I allowed 3 ltrs for trub etc.

I also think that no chilling was causing my bitterness to go through the roof, so for this batch I hopped at 45 mins, and moved the late hops (15 g @10 and 5 mins) to one 10g addition at flame out. So hopefully that should settle it down a bit.

I realise its not really BIAB anymore. But it all started with a bag and a 19lt pot.


----------



## tavas

Dammit, can't edit. That should be one 15g addition at flame out.


----------



## pk.sax

Its not the cotton voile, I squeezed mine and it let go o the wort easily enough.

I did learn one thing from my first effort recently, don't trust the volumes given by the software. Biab needs more volume to happen properly and a 19 litre pot just isn't going to do it for you unless you are mashin low temp and either 'sparging' generously or mashing with a generous amount water. I checked the drippings from my squeezed out grain and there still was a decent amount of sugar in them, means I should've accounted for biab and small pot differences. But, importantly, tastes and smells great, just put it into 2 demijohns to crash chill, I'll bottle as soon as it clears, was extremely cloudy - another thing I need to fix. Well, I reckon it's learning to apply the process to my equipment and also refining ky equipment so I can do things more reliably. I bet ppl's satisfaction will be proportional to how close they got to their targets with them. I got 11.5 litres into the fermenter instead of the 14.5 I was calculating for. So not that unhappy, just means I need to do it a little better next time. And finding out how each improvement affects the final outcome.

I daresay you'd have to be really really good and/or really lucky to do everything perfectly the first time around.


----------



## RdeVjun

practicalfool said:


> I did learn one thing from my first effort recently, don't trust the volumes given by the software. Biab needs more volume to happen properly


Yes, most brewing software isn't BIAB- aware, of that I'm quite sure, full- volume just stands it on its head, let alone sparging etc. I've got far more confidence in the guides from those that have 'been there' and 'done it' (Disclaimer- I'm a provider in that regard). However, the more consumers demand it, the more likely vendors will be willing to provide it, so shout at the vendor is my advice- they really could do to get with the times though, FFS... :huh:


----------



## Nick JD

There's no way you can make 20L of full strength beer on the stovetop. FFS. 

Just thought I'd stir the pot. 

The stove pot.


----------



## RdeVjun

Nick JD said:


> There's no way you can make 20L of full strength beer on the stovetop. FFS.
> 
> Just thought I'd stir the pot.
> 
> The stove pot.


Indeed- there's just no way known...


----------



## flano

Geeze dunno what I did right?

Mine turned out great.

Even gave some to a seasoned home brewer who was very impressed.
He wanted me to show him what I did next time I do it.

I just followed nicks instructions .
Only thing I did different was I used JW traditional ale grain ( my LHBS didn't have what he suggested )and I put the pot into an ice slurry in the laundry tub to cool it down quicker.
..and I poured all the sludge from the pot into the fermenter by mistake.
...and the dude in the LHBS cracked the grain for me.

I am going to keep making that exact recipe .


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

beernorks said:


> Geeze dunno what I did right?
> 
> Mine turned out great.
> 
> Even gave some to a seasoned home brewer who was very impressed.
> He wanted me to show him what I did next time I do it.
> 
> I just followed nicks instructions .
> Only thing I did different was I used JW traditional ale grain ( my LHBS didn't have what he suggested )and I put the pot into an ice slurry in the laundry tub to cool it down quicker.
> ..and I poured all the sludge from the pot into the fermenter by mistake.
> ...and the dude in the LHBS cracked the grain for me.
> 
> I am going to keep making that exact recipe .



Yup - I don't even own a coffee grinder. Just use the cracking that the LHBS (a site sponsor) gives.

I use 2 x big w pots (got the 2nd on extra-special), and this means I get 23L of good gravity (1.060 and above, if I want it) beer. Brewed a 7% Brown Ale on the stove and worked out really good.

@beernorks, may I suggest that you try a few different grains and hops. I've done a SMaSH on the stove and got great beer, but I find that I prefer a slightly more complex grain bill and at least 2 hop varieties. It goes from being *glug glug glug* "this is good" (from mates) to "wow, that is seriously good beer".

Even if you just do a 50/50 with some Pilsner Malt and Amber Malt plus maybe 10% spec malts, with some higher AA% bittering hops (as your POR will do, however I do prefer Amarillo for this - just personal taste) and some lower AA% hops for flavour at 15 minutes and flameout.

Your experienced mate will be blown away by how quickly you have picked up to brew a really good beer.

Goomba


----------



## MCE

keifer33 said:


> Thanks RdeVjun, I think I will try the no-chill-kettle method this time and will invest in some extra cubes to no chill properly for my next AG. I like the idea of splitting the brew day so it doesn't take so long.
> 
> Will report back if I have any issues.



I've had some similar thoughts about breaking up my brew day. I'm in the habit of chilling the pot in a sink of ice and water so that I can get the wort into the fermenter on the one day and then forget about it until bottling. This isn't the most time consuming step so I don't think changing to no-chill would help at all.

Lately I've been thinking about splitting up the brew day right down the middle by grinding the grain and mashing/squeezing etc. on one day, leaving the pot on the stove overnight and then coming back and doing the boil the next day. I imagine that this would add to the total time as I'd need to bring the pot all the way up to the boil from room temperature, rather than 60-70 degrees, but as long as it didn't take _too_ much longer then I reckon it would a more convenient way to do it.

As far as I can see, any bugs that may get into the (sealed) pot overnight would be well and truly boiled the next day so there shouldn't be any issue there. Has anybody tried this technique? Or have any comments on it? I might try it for my next brew so I can break it up over two evenings after work rather than taking up a whole weekend afternoon.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

MCE said:


> I've had some similar thoughts about breaking up my brew day. I'm in the habit of chilling the pot in a sink of ice and water so that I can get the wort into the fermenter on the one day and then forget about it until bottling. This isn't the most time consuming step so I don't think changing to no-chill would help at all.
> 
> Lately I've been thinking about splitting up the brew day right down the middle by grinding the grain and mashing/squeezing etc. on one day, leaving the pot on the stove overnight and then coming back and doing the boil the next day. I imagine that this would add to the total time as I'd need to bring the pot all the way up to the boil from room temperature, rather than 60-70 degrees, but as long as it didn't take _too_ much longer then I reckon it would a more convenient way to do it.
> 
> As far as I can see, any bugs that may get into the (sealed) pot overnight would be well and truly boiled the next day so there shouldn't be any issue there. Has anybody tried this technique? Or have any comments on it? I might try it for my next brew so I can break it up over two evenings after work rather than taking up a whole weekend afternoon.



Not sure about yur last question, but I just tasted a fermented (but not bottled) beer where I no-chilled (out of lack of prep), and it was seriously more bitter than the 35 or so IBU I'd made it to be. So I suppose I am +1 to anecdotal evidence that no-chilling does increase bitterness. If I can figure out a way to factor that in (maybe drop 60 minutes boil addition of hops), then I will, just to have another method up my sleeve. It is easier in the sense that you really done have to crash chill it, and for me that is about half an hour off. Way easier for me to wake up next morning and just pitch the yeast and go to work (as I inevitably brew on Sunday as a rule).

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

MCE said:


> I've had some similar thoughts about breaking up my brew day. I'm in the habit of chilling the pot in a sink of ice and water so that I can get the wort into the fermenter on the one day and then forget about it until bottling. This isn't the most time consuming step so I don't think changing to no-chill would help at all.
> 
> Lately I've been thinking about splitting up the brew day right down the middle by grinding the grain and mashing/squeezing etc. on one day, leaving the pot on the stove overnight and then coming back and doing the boil the next day. I imagine that this would add to the total time as I'd need to bring the pot all the way up to the boil from room temperature, rather than 60-70 degrees, but as long as it didn't take _too_ much longer then I reckon it would a more convenient way to do it.
> 
> As far as I can see, any bugs that may get into the (sealed) pot overnight would be well and truly boiled the next day so there shouldn't be any issue there. Has anybody tried this technique? Or have any comments on it? I might try it for my next brew so I can break it up over two evenings after work rather than taking up a whole weekend afternoon.



I would be very worried about your wort going sour. Perhaps bring it up to the boil for a few minutes to kill the souring bugs.


----------



## MCE

Nick JD said:


> I would be very worried about your wort going sour. Perhaps bring it up to the boil for a few minutes to kill the souring bugs.



Ah, yeah, good point. In light of that it may not be worth doing as I'd have to mash, bring to the boil briefly before bringing it to the boil from room temperature next day. I think the amount of time added to the total would make it not worthwhile. Maybe if I get some high-powered burner down the track then it might be feasible.


----------



## Nick JD

MCE said:


> Ah, yeah, good point. In light of that it may not be worth doing as I'd have to mash, bring to the boil briefly before bringing it to the boil from room temperature next day. I think the amount of time added to the total would make it not worthwhile. Maybe if I get some high-powered burner down the track then it might be feasible.



People often mash overnight, but that's not 24 hours. I know when I leave my bag full of spent grain for 24 hours it's pretty sour.


----------



## Ade42

Did Mine today, with the same recipe, Added 250g of caramalt grain as I was getting a 500g bag, Thought Id Split it.

OG was at 1040 (after I topped up the fermenter to 21L with water) with a 90mn mash and some serious "sparging" I think the word is, LHBS did not have whirlock tabs so I got Irish Moss, Chucked in a teaspoon at 10 mins to go, Chilled it in about an hour with Icebricks and laundry sink, Got it down to 22c, Tipped into fermenter, tried to do it slowly but all the crap looked like it went into the ferementer (about a 1/4 went in) Dunno if Irish Moss is the go now, was suprised that it only filled less than half of the fermenter so put another 10 or so Liters untill 21L, Then tested the OG, Was 1040, I git carried away and boiled 300g Of Dex in about 1-2L with half a teaspoon of "Yeast Nutrient" LHBS recomended it, The Pitched 2 packetd of S-23 looked at the OG again it's now 1042-4. Looking good so far!. 

The holding of the bag is a killer though!


----------



## RdeVjun

Good on ya Ade! :beerbang: 

Don't worry about the muck, it mostly break and largely harmless. I'll let mine chill overnight, it condenses down reasonably well.

One other tip is to use some whole hops/ plugs (rather than pellets) and a big 6" sieve in the top of the fermenter, with a bit of patience you can basically pour the whole lot through with little of the break or hops making it into the fermenter, also means very little in the way of losses to trub.

Don't be afraid to try the no- sparge/ stock BIAB either, I recommend it before doing this variant but you've managed to pull it off, so well done! :icon_cheers:


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

RdeVjun said:


> Good on ya Ade! :beerbang:
> 
> Don't worry about the muck, it mostly break and largely harmless. I'll let mine chill overnight, it condenses down reasonably well.




I chill in the kitchen sick then leave it overnight, I've found the proteins settle a lot better and I get more in the fermenter!

I use Irish Moss too, leaving overnight does the trick, not sure if whirlfloc is better or not?

Congrats mate welcome aboard :beerbang:


----------



## DU99

Got the Pot ..need a few simple recipes..any takers..and remember CHEAP


----------



## flano

> Got the Pot ..need a few simple recipes..any takers..and remember CHEAP


mate

do this one ( this thread )it is pretty good.

I just bought a 25 kg bag of grain and a couple of 90 gram packs of Hops.

all up about $80.
That is for the equiv of 12 cartons of 24 stubbies.

I am going to just re-use the yeast....it doesn't come any cheaper.



did another one yesterday

I got a emersion wand from my LHBS to boil the wort...did it outside in the sun ...wife is happy .



unreal!!


----------



## Nick JD

DU99 said:


> Got the Pot ..need a few simple recipes..any takers..and remember CHEAP



Can't get much cheaper than the recipe at the start of this thread. 50c a litre.


----------



## flano

I'm drinking right now!!!!

:icon_cheers:


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Nick JD said:


> Can't get much cheaper than the recipe at the start of this thread. 50c a litre.




Any tweaks since nick?


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

DU99 said:


> Got the Pot ..need a few simple recipes..any takers..and remember CHEAP




Good on you Steve, you wont look back :beerbang:


----------



## DU99

got packets of S33 ...


----------



## Nick JD

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Any tweaks since nick?



I usually do 16-18L no-sparge batches with 3-3.5kg of grain. That's the only tweak I could offer - peg it back a little and you can ditch the sparging step - but you have to top up the pot with a few litres of boiling water (from the coffee kettle) to get your 16L of ~1.050 for the hop boil. I usually dilute a bit in the fermenter too, taking account of the priming sugar's 0.5%.


----------



## flano

I got one of these things 






and did the 19 ltr pot outside. 
It gets it up and boiling in about 10 mins .


----------



## Ade42

Where did you get the "heater" thing, and how much? 

I just did my second and like the first my hands are red with all the squeezing i do to the bag! 

and the liquid is not "clear" I noted, Its all thick with sediment, That's ok, yes?


----------



## Nick JD

Ade42 said:


> Where did you get the "heater" thing, and how much?
> 
> I just did my second and like the first my hands are red with all the squeezing i do to the bag!
> 
> and the liquid is not "clear" I noted, Its all thick with sediment, That's ok, yes?



Get yourself some washing up gloves. 

What do you mean "thick with sediment"? Are you using Polyester Swiss Voile from Spotlight?

When it's boiling does it look like this? 

Photos always help.


----------



## kelbygreen

can you take a pic of the swiss voile close up nick? I looked at some poly voile today at curtain wonderland and the weave looks to big but not sure what it should look like.


----------



## Nick JD

kelbygreen said:


> can you take a pic of the swiss voile close up nick? I looked at some poly voile today at curtain wonderland and the weave looks to big but not sure what it should look like.



Was is _SWISS _Voile?


----------



## kelbygreen

not swiss but it looks the same as that why does it have to be swiss? its polyester voile curtain sheer.

EDIT: also wanna ask can you mash one day then boil the next? as I am finding it hard to find 3-4 hours in a single day to do the lot lol


----------



## Nick JD

kelbygreen said:


> not swiss but it looks the same as that why does it have to be swiss? its polyester voile curtain sheer



It more a matter of Swiss Voile is a _known quality_. Small variations in weave size might have a large effect on drainage or letting stuff through.

It's probably the same stuff though. I used to use Nylon Swiss Voile and that was fine ... I've even used "Peel Ply" - stuff used in vacuum composite laminates, but that was years ago. 

Better to have too small holes than too big.

EDIT: Overnight mashes are done by some people. If you really want to leave your mash runnings 24 hours before boiling I'd suggest bringing it up to at least 75-80C for ten minutes and covering in gladwrap. That sweet liquid has a lot of things that really, really want to turn it into yoghurt.


----------



## kelbygreen

yeah ok might try to do all in the same day. Wonder how they do them AG fresh wort kits they must boil the wort after the mash I guess.


----------



## Nick JD

kelbygreen said:


> yeah ok might try to do all in the same day. Wonder how they do them AG fresh wort kits they must boil the wort after the mash I guess.



Yup - FWKs are just no-chilled cubes, they've been though the hop boil and only need to be splashed into the fermenter.


----------



## flano

Ade42 said:


> Where did you get the "heater" thing, and how much?
> 
> I just did my second and like the first my hands are red with all the squeezing i do to the bag!
> 
> and the liquid is not "clear" I noted, Its all thick with sediment, That's ok, yes?




the brew shop...a site sponsor
link is top right of this screen.

It cost $130.00 at the shop but is a bit more online.

I don't know how long it will last but I can say it worked great with the 19 ltr pot.

no cutting out switches or runnig out of gas to worry about...just heaps dangerous looking


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

beernorks said:


> I got one of these things
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and did the 19 ltr pot outside.
> It gets it up and boiling in about 10 mins .



did you have anything left at the end, looks vigorous!!


----------



## flano

beerdrinkingbob said:


> did you have anything left at the end, looks vigorous!!




yeah ...it was virtually the same as the stove.
OG was a bit different though 
stove was 1050
this was 1054

dunno if that has anything to do with it though.


----------



## boriskane

hey,

not sure if its already been posted somewhere, but im having trouble working with Beersmith when adopting the 20L biab system (e.g. adjusting batch sizes, mash profiles etc), any tips? or is a futile effort?

thanks


----------



## kelbygreen

you can add your equipment into beersmith there is a option but with this you need to put your boil volume in as well so just dont put 20lt batch size and 20lt boild size as the hop utilization will be out. Work out roughly what the boil size is (nick said his was around about 15lts from memory) but yours could be different. As for mash profiles I dont put them in but you can add it just for reference to your next batch it doesnt change the recipe at all. I got a book I write everything in so that is a log of all my brews beersmith is a tool just to work it out for me.


----------



## Nick JD

I found understanding Beersmith more difficult than making beer. 

BELETED!


----------



## manticle

kelbygreen said:


> .
> 
> EDIT: also wanna ask can you mash one day then boil the next? as I am finding it hard to find 3-4 hours in a single day to do the lot lol




You can but there is a risk that lacto bacteria will sour your wort.

If you have to (I've done it but wouldn't recommend as standard practice) then I would make sure you include a mashout step (bring wort to 76+ degrees) and cube into a no-chill container.

Over all it will take longer but sometimes splitting steps can help.


----------



## boriskane

kelbygreen said:


> you can add your equipment into beersmith there is a option but with this you need to put your boil volume in as well so just dont put 20lt batch size and 20lt boild size as the hop utilization will be out. Work out roughly what the boil size is (nick said his was around about 15lts from memory) but yours could be different. As for mash profiles I dont put them in but you can add it just for reference to your next batch it doesnt change the recipe at all. I got a book I write everything in so that is a log of all my brews beersmith is a tool just to work it out for me.



yeah cheers it makes things a lot easier knowing that it doesnt impact the recipe specs



Nick JD said:


> I found understanding Beersmith more difficult than making beer.
> 
> BELETED!




yeah! 1. throw grain in big container, 2. throw hot water in big container and mix everything around and let it sit for a while, 3. move liquid into another pot and boil then add flowers, 4. move to another plastic container and keep the lid open because then somehow it turns into beer


----------



## boriskane

hey fellas, got a confusing result from brewday yesterday:

3.2kg pilsner
0.7kg dark munich
0.3kg wheat

mash with 15L of water, then sparged with 5 for a preboil of 15L. this was the same amount of water i had for my previous batch with the same amount of grain, the only thing that was different was the mash temp was 65 this time as opposed to 60 last time. 

last time preboil i had an SG of 1.065 with 60C mash
this time preboil i had an SG of 1.048 with 65C mash

and seeing as postboil i would have ~11L, diluting it would make a very light wort.


question is: why is it that the higher mash temp resulted in a lower OG? or is there something else that might have occurred? there were some doughballs that were tough to break up, perhaps more of these were around?


cheers


----------



## kelbygreen

the mash temp shouldnt affect OG that I know of. Your efficiency as dropped though maybe from the dough balls. maybe there was more liquid in the pot. Was the grain cracked the same as the last time? did you do anything different? A higher mash temp will make a heavier beer. mashing at 60c must of been a light beer or was that mash out temp?


----------



## boriskane

kelbygreen said:


> the mash temp shouldnt affect OG that I know of. Your efficiency as dropped though maybe from the dough balls. maybe there was more liquid in the pot. Was the grain cracked the same as the last time? did you do anything different? A higher mash temp will make a heavier beer. mashing at 60c must of been a light beer or was that mash out temp?



ok thats good to know, cheers.

yeah it wouldve been the doughballs+slightly different grain cracking.

it was difficult to break up some doughballs because i had *unknowingly* used 100g more grain in my recipe+* knowingly* 1L more liquid than the last batch, which caused the pot to be filled to the brim, risking spillage if i had forcefully broken up the doughballs.

lesson learned: 
4.2kg of grain+15L of water into a 19L stock pot=bad
4.1kg of grain+14L of water into a 19L stock pot=good

it wasnt a light beer btw, just an accidentally low mash temp because of insufficient insulation and too slow mashing the grain in. that batch actually ended up at 5.5% because of a 1.006 FG due to the low mash temp. very thin+dry though, not so happy.

cheers for that, had a taste of it from the fermenter today (day 3) and it had a nice body to it and the SG had gone down to 1.010 already, hoping it stays at that level. 

if i rack and CC i can stick it there, cant i? its pretty low so its not significant to risking bottle bombs is it?


----------



## Nick JD

boris kane said:


> the doughballs+slightly different grain cracking.



These are the only two things it could have been.


----------



## boriskane

Nick JD said:


> These are the only two things it could have been.



from experience, what has given you a greater efficiency, the average level of cracking you get from an lhbs or your flour consistency cracking?


----------



## Nick JD

boris kane said:


> from experience, what has given you a greater efficiency, the average level of cracking you get from an lhbs or your flour consistency cracking?



Flour gives a great efficiency, but not a big enough difference to account for your difference.

Also, I find that doughballs aren't there at the end of the mash. I reckon they're gone after a few minutes. It's difficult to keep water out of something dry...


----------



## AussieJosh

just a quick queastion!
Im just heating up my water now to do my first stovetop AG. I have 1.5 m of Swiss Voile to put in and over my pot and i have noticed......ITS A CRAP LOAD.......of swiss Voile! Do you guys fold it in half or somthing so its 2 layers? or do you need all that extra hanging over the pot!?
Cheers!


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

AussieJosh said:


> just a quick queastion!
> Im just heating up my water now to do my first stovetop AG. I have 1.5 m of Swiss Voile to put in and over my pot and i have noticed......ITS A CRAP LOAD.......of swiss Voile! Do you guys fold it in half or somthing so its 2 layers? or do you need all that extra hanging over the pot!?
> Cheers!


I cut mine to size but still have a fair bit hanging over. It comes in handy to have extra to tie the bag up when draining. Don't double over as it won't drain as well.

Good luck mate. 

Cheers 

MOM


----------



## Bribie G

Trim to fit, for your next batch. I do full size batches (40L urn) and got 1.5m for my original bag that the sewing lady made for me, and she handed me back a shedload of spare voile she couldn't use. Still in a drawer, I might make keg hop bags out of it.


----------



## AussieJosh

Thanks guys just putting in the grain now.
also how do you guys go about washing/cleaining your Swiss Voile after you have used it?


----------



## felten

dump the majority of the grain in the compost then hit it with a hose, hang it up on the clothes line to dry fully


----------



## Bribie G

I give my full size bag a good rinse both sides under the tap then stuff it into a big jug full of strong hot nappysan solution, leave overnight and then rinse and hang in the sunshine and breezes B)


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

shake the grain out. rinse it. then hang it back across the window that i stole it from


----------



## AussieJosh

Ok a BIG thank you to Nick for posting this easy to read thread with lots of step by step pics! With out this i dont know when i would have pulled my finger out to do a AG!?
I used the same recipe but changed the yeast to a US05 and put 12g of Sazz in towards the end of the boil.

This is a pic with the reading i took after putting the juice from the two pots and the bucket back together, taken at about 55c




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The boil.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

There was a lot of gunk in the pot after the boil up, not sure what this is?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Reading taken after topping up to 20L at about 24c No dex or anything else added, anyone know what the aprox alc will be?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Lots of floaties.....is this ok?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Thank you so much again Nick and everyone else for your help!
Cheers!

Josh!


----------



## Bribie G

ABV (Alcohol by Volume) = Gravity Drop/8.06 %

So if your OG is 1046, which it looks to be, and your FG is say 1010 then 

46-10 = 36
ABV = 4.46 %

To stay within "style" for an Aussie, you could probably up it to around 5% by adding some dex but I'm not exactly sure what the calculations are for that. Say 300g would put you in the ballpark for a VB or XXXX knockoff. 

That bready stuff in the pot is hot break, let it settle out.


----------



## AussieJosh

Thanks for the reply BribieG!

what do you mean by settle out? I have already added the pot in to the fermenter and toped up to 20L It will just rest in the bottom of the fermenter right?
I dont really mind if it does not turn out in the style of a (aussie lager) Im not a huge fan of VB carlt and all that crap anyway, thats why i used some sazz and a ale yeast, was thinking it may turn out more like coopers mild ale...if you guys get that interstate? .....but just a full strength version.


----------



## haysie

BribieG said:


> To stay within "style" for an Aussie, you could probably up it to around 5%



Since when was an Aussie Lager 5%? Water it down to 4%... thats ball park full strength Aussie Lager!


----------



## Bribie G

Fosters is still 4.9% and who can you trust if not Fosters B) 

Haysie when you are here in March you'll have to have a session on real XXXX local version not the gold crap. I made Butters drink a bottle last case swap here and even he didn't mind it too much 

Josh: yes leave well alone and you should get a good quaffable, sorry I missed the part where you said the ale yeast, which one is it?


----------



## AussieJosh

US05


----------



## Cocko

Hey AJ,

A good 'whirlpool' could serve you well also..

2c.


----------



## haysie

BribieG said:


> Haysie when you are here in March you'll have to have a session on real XXXX local version not the gold crap. I made Butters drink a bottle last case swap here and even he didn't mind it too much
> 
> Josh: yes leave well alone and you should get a good quaffable, sorry I missed the part where you said the ale yeast, which one is it?



Somehow I dont like the idea of a session on XXXX, take your word for it though.

Josh, the US05 aint the greatest flocca in the world, so expect a little haysieness. For what your brewing, it will come out clean more like a hydrid common than a lager though


----------



## Nevalicious

haysie said:


> Somehow I dont like the idea of a session on XXXX, take your word for it though



Have had many sessions on the full strength XXXX... Loved every minute of it. Quite easy to drink. 

Then I discovered flavour...

Seriously, I dont mind XXXX (its what they'll be serving at the cricket today!), its just that other beers have sooooooo much more flavour. I'm currently fermenting an Aussie at the moment hopped with a 60 min POR addition, nothing else. Tastes the goods out of the FV

Cheers

Tyler


----------



## Nick JD

Josh - looks good, how did you cool the wort? 

If you left it overnight to cool then the hotbreak is the stuff on the very bottom of the pot. When you pour into your fermenter it'll be clear wort for about 90%, then your coldbreak (looks like thin yoghurt) will go in which is okay, but then stuff that looks more like cottage cheese - hotbreak - will be seen. Stop pouring at that stage. 

I've never had the hotbreak do anything but sit on the bottom when transfering to the fermenter - make sure you don't bump, carry, or move the pot - bring your fermenter to your pot, then top up with cold water to your desired gravity.

Get yourself some Amarillo, Citra, Nelson or Galaxy! These are the heavy-hitters of the hop world and will make your ales insane.


----------



## AussieJosh

Nick
with ten mins of the boil left i put in half of one of them tablets. at the end of the boil i put the pot in to a icy tub right away and left it for about 30 mins bringing the temp down to the mid 20s then i just poured the whole lot in to the fermenter about 13L i think? Then i just toped it up to 20L and put in the US05 at 24c sitting on 22c now.
have i stuffed it by tipping it all in the fermenter?


----------



## Nick JD

AussieJosh said:


> have i stuffed it by tipping it all in the fermenter?



It'll be fine. But try leaving that hotbreak behind the next time. Hot and cold break are very similar things but most brewers will tell you to leave the HB out. I'm surprised it didn't settle out in that time if you were gentle when pouring.

The beer will taste 1000% better than kit beer regardless.


----------



## AussieJosh

Thanks Nick
So will it be all lumpy like in my last pic when i put it in my kegs or bottles? or will it sit right at the bottom of the fermemnter?


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

AussieJosh said:


> Thanks Nick
> So will it be all lumpy like in my last pic when i put it in my kegs or bottles? or will it sit right at the bottom of the fermemnter?



Na mate that will settle out with your yeast in the bottom of you fermenter, great job mate, welcome to world of AG brewing :super:


----------



## flano

my 2 cents.

Been doing this for a few months and have had some great results.
Did the first few by tipping the lot into the fermenter and did the next few without.
Can't really tell the difference to be honest ...I am sure there is though.

Bit of tweaking here and there. Adding dif hops etc..all have been great.

I did a cascade and corriander one last time.
I just chucked a whole bunch of chopped fresh corriander roots and all in the hops bag about 20 from the end.
Came out great.could'nt even taste the corriander


----------



## Nick JD

Nevalicious said:


> Have had many sessions on the full strength XXXX... Loved every minute of it. Quite easy to drink.
> 
> Then I discovered flavour...
> 
> Seriously, I dont mind XXXX (its what they'll be serving at the cricket today!), its just that other beers have sooooooo much more flavour. I'm currently fermenting an Aussie at the moment hopped with a 60 min POR addition, nothing else. Tastes the goods out of the FV
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tyler



I got 1kg of Aus Cluster (XXXX hop) for $27 and have been adding 65g with ten minutes to go in the boil. This gives the same bitterness as XXXX ... but HUGE flavour/aroma. XXXX on steriods.


----------



## Bribie G

Nick, it will soon be a year since this thread started. Are you still on the original coffee grinder, or have you gone through a couple during the year? I've recently bought a Marga but thinking that the coffee grinder would be a good piece of kit to zap up small batches of Crystal etc - I expect the unmilled grains keep fresher than pre-milled.


----------



## AussieJosh

The smell comming out the top of my air lock and filling the wine cellar is amazing and smells so sweet! The krusen is the biggest i have ever had, at least 10cm!
If anyone is looking at this thread thinking about doing a AG this way, i would say GO FOR IT! Its is so easy! Just make sure you read all the instructions a bunch of times, and take you time! Make sure you have plenty of time up your sleev!


----------



## Cocko

beernorks said:


> I did a cascade and corriander one last time.
> I just chucked a whole bunch of chopped fresh corriander roots and all in the hops bag about 20 from the end.
> Came out great.could'nt even taste the corriander




Umm.. so what did the coriander add to the beer?


----------



## Nick JD

BribieG said:


> Nick, it will soon be a year since this thread started. Are you still on the original coffee grinder, or have you gone through a couple during the year? I've recently bought a Marga but thinking that the coffee grinder would be a good piece of kit to zap up small batches of Crystal etc - I expect the unmilled grains keep fresher than pre-milled.



Still the original Sunbeam. I'm losing track now, but it's got to be close, if not over 150kg that's gone through the thing. 

Where I think it'll finally kick the bucket is the lid. There are a few cracks and chips on the rim - I suspect from the occasional pebble/stone that can be in the grain.

It gets warm doing 4kg, and I make sure to wipe the dust that accumulates on the base (where the cooling vents are) each kg, but I'm as surprised as anyone that it's still going.


----------



## bluejay

Thanks for the thread. Seems like a very interesting and manageable technique for a beginner like myself.

One thing I don't understand though is how can 4kg of grain be enough for 20L of beer. I thought the general rule was 1kg of grain per 3 Litres of beer.

Is it because the grain is ground down so much that the efficiency is much higher?


----------



## RdeVjun

bluejay said:


> Thanks for the thread. Seems like a very interesting and manageable technique for a beginner like myself.
> 
> One thing I don't understand though is how can 4kg of grain be enough for 20L of beer. I thought the general rule was 1kg of grain per 3 Litres of beer.
> 
> Is it because the grain is ground down so much that the efficiency is much higher?


No, it is not because of efficiency bluejay, more that the method uses a thicker than normal BIAB mash and a sparge, but also does so in a smaller kettle, so reducing the water quantities while keeping the grain mass the same for the mash and boil, then the addition of water at pitching for post- boil dilution is where the volume is made up.
I use 4.75kg of grain to yield anywhere between 21 and 25L of wort (depending upon the target OG and efficiency), while fermentation and packaging losses are usually 2 or 3L, so its still a greater beer yield than the kettle volume. Its a pretty nifty trick if you're limited for space, budget, equipment etc but want the usual full- sized AG batches.

That value of 1:3 is not one I'm familiar with, are you sure you're not referring to liquor to grist (L:G) ratio? That's the usual amount of water to grain for the conventional infusion mash.


----------



## bluejay

RdeVjun said:


> No, it is not because of efficiency bluejay, more that the method uses a thicker than normal BIAB mash and a sparge, but also does so in a smaller kettle, so reducing the water quantities while keeping the grain mass the same for the mash and boil, then the addition of water at pitching for post- boil dilution is where the volume is made up.
> I use 4.75kg of grain to yield anywhere between 21 and 25L of wort (depending upon the target OG and efficiency), while fermentation and packaging losses are usually 2 or 3L, so its still a greater beer yield than the kettle volume. Its a pretty nifty trick if you're limited for space, budget, equipment etc but want the usual full- sized AG batches.
> 
> That value of 1:3 is not one I'm familiar with, are you sure you're not referring to liquor to grist (L:G) ratio? That's the usual amount of water to grain for the conventional infusion mash.



I can see how sparge improves yield, but why would a thicker bag and less water increase it?

Yeah that's I think what I mean.


----------



## Nick JD

bluejay said:


> Thanks for the thread. Seems like a very interesting and manageable technique for a beginner like myself.
> 
> One thing I don't understand though is how can 4kg of grain be enough for 20L of beer. I thought the general rule was 1kg of grain per 3 Litres of beer.
> 
> Is it because the grain is ground down so much that the efficiency is much higher?



At roughly 70% efficiency 4kg of grain mashed in any amount of water, boiled down to, or diluted to 20L will make a specific gravity of roughly 1.045. The last two numbers of the original gravity (depending on yeast used, but generally) can be thought of as the final alcohol percentage eg 4.5%. Priming sugar will up that to 4.9%.

Using the same equipment but using only 3kg of grain and making 16L of beer I can add 10 more points to my efficiency percentage - gear has its optimal range. 4kg is not optimal with this little pot. 3.2kg is.

1kg of grain to 3L of _water_ might be what you're thinking. 6kg of grain in 20L will make a pretty BIG beer.

Give it a go - it'll make sense once it's in the fermenter, and a lot more sense once it's in your glass.

EDIT: beaten by slow typing!


----------



## bluejay

Yes I meant 1kg of grain per 3L of water. I was just told by a friend that that's the general rule of thumb for AG. 

I will definitely try this method sometime when I have time


----------



## flano

Cocko said:


> Umm.. so what did the coriander add to the beer?




dunno.

Just tasted like beer.
Wouldn't bother again.


----------



## flano

sorry to bump this one again.

strike temp at 70 dgs as per nicks pics..

I have been doing it at about 76 ...the version of this I make is never as good as the first one I made which I probably did at 70.
Would this be why?

dunno why I have been doing it at 76.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

beernorks said:


> sorry to bump this one again.
> 
> strike temp at 70 dgs as per nicks pics..
> 
> I have been doing it at about 76 ...the version of this I make is never as good as the first one I made which I probably did at 70.
> Would this be why?
> 
> dunno why I have been doing it at 76.



You would be producing a lot of unfermentable sugar at that temp, have you noticed that you FG hasn't been as low as you expected. If you drop it back to a strike temp of 70 that should give you a mash temp of 65 ish which IMO will give you a better balance beer, however if you are trying to make a sweeter beer that is the way to do it.


----------



## Nick JD

Strike Temperature should be calculated every time you mash. It should never bee the same, even for the same recipe unless you brew in a climate-controlled place.

Go to: 
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

Scroll to the bottom where you'll see a calculator. Enter your numbers. It'll calculate the temperature your water needs to be (depending on its volume, and the warmth and volume of your grain) to hit the mash temperature you want.

If you want a 66C mash (62 is low and makes a thin high alc beer; 70C is high and makes a thick low alc beer), you have 14L of water and 3kg of grain that's got a temperature of 25C ... your water (strike) needs to be 69.51C.

Say you want to mash at 63C ... the _Strike Temperature _needs to be 66.25C.

More water, or more grain, or really cold grain in winter will affect your required strike - so use the calculator and you'll be bang on.


----------



## flano

the plot thickens..or thins...depending on the temp.

thanks again.

I will use this calulator next brew.

cheers

do I stick my thermometer into the dry grain?


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> do I stick my thermometer into the dry grain?



I've always used room temperature as grain temperature - unless you store it somewhere really warm, or cool I reckon room temp is good enough.


----------



## argon

beernorks said:


> the plot thickens..or thins...depending on the temp.
> 
> thanks again.
> 
> I will use this calulator next brew.
> 
> cheers
> 
> do I stick my thermometer into the dry grain?



Put it into your temp controlled fridge for a while (assuming you have one) at 18C or whatever... then use that figure for strike calculations. Or just measure ambient temp where your grain is... the grain should be the same


----------



## flano

thanks fella's

dumb question in hindsight.


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Thanks for the writeup Nick. I did my first AG yesterday using this method in my Donga in Karratha. I had some issues with initial temperature... It settled at 63 so I had to add boiling water to get it to 65. Better to be too low than too high I guess

The brew was an attempt at a Yorkie Bitter:

4kg Pale Ale Malt
200g Crystal 240
150g Aromatic
100g Biscuit
55g EKG @ 60
30g EKG @ 10
30g Aurora @ 0
1469 yeast

I also bought an air pump to aerate it a few times to replicate the Yorkshire square method... Not sure about how much air to give it though... Any comments Bribie?

Cheers :beer:


----------



## Xarb

Had a bit of issue with sparging all that grain when I attempted this due to my sparging vessel being way WAY too small. This caused my efficiency to be possibly the worst in the history of homebrewing! ha ha

So any future over-gravity brewers be sure that you have a decent sized sparging vessel. Oh well lesson learned. 

Anyway so I was thinking of buying a second pot for my next sparge attempt but then realised I could probably use my second fermenter as a sparging vessel. It is one of those fermenters with the full sized rip-off lids (see pic) so I can't see any problem but do any of you more experienced brewers see any potential issues with using it?


----------



## Bribie G

They've been using those in the UK for the last 40 years for fermenting and also sparging - I used to do AG in a two vessel system 30 years ago with sparging and it's fine, just line it with the bag, do a batch sparge and raise the bag a tad off the bottom to avoid blocking the tap as you run off into the boiler. You'll probably need a full size BIAB bag to fit that big boy, but that will stand you in good stead if you decide to go full volume BIAB in an urn or bigger pot.


----------



## Xarb

BribieG said:


> You'll probably need a full size BIAB bag to fit that big boy, but that will stand you in good stead if you decide to go full volume BIAB in an urn or bigger pot.


Bag size! I didn't think of that, which is why I asked the experts. Cheers Bribie. :icon_cheers: 

PS for any brewers looking for a coffee grinder, ALDI has them this week for $20:
http://www.aldi.com.au/au/html/offers/2827_17148.htm


----------



## HeavyNova

Nick JD said:


> Still the original Sunbeam. I'm losing track now, but it's got to be close, if not over 150kg that's gone through the thing.
> 
> Where I think it'll finally kick the bucket is the lid. There are a few cracks and chips on the rim - I suspect from the occasional pebble/stone that can be in the grain.
> 
> It gets warm doing 4kg, and I make sure to wipe the dust that accumulates on the base (where the cooling vents are) each kg, but I'm as surprised as anyone that it's still going.




Good to hear! I picked this same model up a few days ago for my first shot at an AG brew this weekend. Thanks for the easy to follow guide and the inspiration Nick!


----------



## Xarb

I got one of the ALDI coffee grinders and it seems to work well. Although I only tried it on a small amount as my grain was already cracked by my LHBS.

Also put down another batch using my spare fermenter as a sparge vessel and it worked surprisingly well. The only problem was when I moved my ~77C water to the fermenter it cooled down to 70C. When I put the grain in for sparging the temp settled at 75C so Im a little confused what the overall temp goal of the sparge water is. Should the end result with the grain be 75C or should the water be 75C before adding the grain? Or does it not matter too much?


----------



## Bribie G

As posted elsewhere, the free software Brewmate has a heap of useful calculators including strike temperature. Highly recommended, in fact I'm using BM now instead of BS as it does what I want it to quicker and dirtier :icon_cheers:


----------



## Nick JD

Xarb said:


> Or does it not matter too much?



Hot sparge water in 3 vessel brewing is used to basically kill the mash. The hot water (hotter than mash temp) "denatures" the enzymes that convert the starch into sugaz. It stop them working - so the sugars you have at the end of your mash are the sugars you intended to produce, and only them. 

In 3V brewing it takes a long, long time to get your runnings out of the mash tun. In this time the sugaz you were aiming for may be different to what you get because it took 40 minutes to get them all out and into your kettle.

With stovetop brewing it takes on a few minutes to get your sugaz out - so you could even sparge with hot tap water. You're "flushing" the bag, rather than trying to halt the sugaz ratios (maltriose:maltose:sucrose:glucose etc).

Something like that anyway.


----------



## Xarb

Yeah I just started using BeerMate and am loving it. I knew to use it for my mash strike temp, just didn't think to use it for my sparge water temp.





Thanks for the info Nick, I think I need to read the sciencey part of my How to Brew book and figure out exactly what is going on.


----------



## Nick JD

If you do a stovetop batch with 3.3kg of grain you don't need to sparge at all. Just squeeze like buggary and chuck the grain. 

Still gets 70% efficiency and ol' Pistol Patch will be happier for it as you are then doing correct BIAB.  

Good for 3.5-4.0% beers or for the ones where 250g of sugar are called for. 

Sometimes I can't be arsed sparging and instead I throw in 250g of Chinese Rice Malt ($1) instead.


----------



## boriskane

hey again, havent been on here or brewed since december due to work and travel so my plan for a brew tomorrow has left me itching to start AG again.

im planning to make an english strong/old ale of sorts in my 20L pot using 6kg of grain. can someone link me to a similar post or tell me how much water/temperature i should be mashing with to ensure a reasonable mash efficiency?

cheers guys,


boris


ps check out my hersbruckers, i missed out on harvest so the majority if not all of them are brown


----------



## Nick JD

boris kane said:


> im planning to make an english strong/old ale of sorts in my 20L pot using 6kg of grain. can someone link me to a similar post or tell me how much water/temperature i should be mashing with to ensure a reasonable mash efficiency?



You need a bigger pot.

4kg of grain is the limit of this setup before your efficiency starts to go out the window. 

You can mash twice - where you do your second mash in the first mash's liquor - but this effects some aspects of the beer a little. 

You can do two, 3kg mashes. Doing this you will get phenomenal efficiency, but you have to mash twice and boil twice - essentially you make two strong 10L beers the same and ferment them together.

Or get a bigger pot


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> You need a bigger pot.
> 
> 4kg of grain is the limit of this setup before your efficiency starts to go out the window.
> 
> You can mash twice - where you do your second mash in the first mash's liquor - but this effects some aspects of the beer a little.
> 
> You can do two, 3kg mashes. Doing this you will get phenomenal efficiency, but you have to mash twice and boil twice - essentially you make two strong 10L beers the same and ferment them together.
> 
> Or get a bigger pot



Or 2, like I have. They just fit on the stove.

Goomba


----------



## boriskane

Nick JD said:


> You need a bigger pot.
> 
> 4kg of grain is the limit of this setup before your efficiency starts to go out the window.
> 
> You can mash twice - where you do your second mash in the first mash's liquor - but this effects some aspects of the beer a little.
> 
> You can do two, 3kg mashes. Doing this you will get phenomenal efficiency, but you have to mash twice and boil twice - essentially you make two strong 10L beers the same and ferment them together.
> 
> Or get a bigger pot






Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Or 2, like I have. They just fit on the stove.
> 
> Goomba




yeah i was afraid of that, i made an attempt with a 5kg/13.5L and my efficiency was shot to bits, so i guess that confirms it.

ive got a 15L pot, reckon that will take 3kg+9L for the mash? then i could run two at once and shave some time off.


boris


----------



## Nick JD

I've done this a few times. Yeah it's a bit of a hassle, but I enjoy the process and I don't make big beers all that often.

Make a 10L batch of high gravity liquor, boil and add hops and all that. 

Cool it and add it to the fermenter - add the yeast. 10L of 1.070 (or whatever) with the yeast breeding up nicely just about to start fermenting.

Make another 10L batch the next day - exactly the same recipe.

Pour it on top of your last 10L. 

20L of 1.070 beer with a ripping healthy yeast already having a headstart. It's like you made a 10L starter.


----------



## boriskane

Nick JD said:


> I've done this a few times. Yeah it's a bit of a hassle, but I enjoy the process and I don't make big beers all that often.
> 
> Make a 10L batch of high gravity liquor, boil and add hops and all that.
> 
> Cool it and add it to the fermenter - add the yeast. 10L of 1.070 (or whatever) with the yeast breeding up nicely just about to start fermenting.
> 
> Make another 10L batch the next day - exactly the same recipe.
> 
> Pour it on top of your last 10L.
> 
> 20L of 1.070 beer with a ripping healthy yeast already having a headstart. It's like you made a 10L starter.



yeah actually, that sounds much better.

that, and i dont have two bags.

haha cheers for that quick refresher, i think im back up to speed. boiling the water as i type! wish me luck


----------



## Nick JD

If you are going to introduce the second half of the batch when the first is already fermenting hard - rack it in very gently with a sanatised hose so you don't add oxygen.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

boris kane said:


> yeah i was afraid of that, i made an attempt with a 5kg/13.5L and my efficiency was shot to bits, so i guess that confirms it.
> 
> ive got a 15L pot, reckon that will take 3kg+9L for the mash? then i could run two at once and shave some time off.
> 
> 
> boris



Big W 19L pots for $20. I got the second on special for $12. 2 lots of voile and after turning on the stove, I remove the knobs to fit the two pots fine.

I love Nick's method, but got frustrated when I drank through 9L (12 tallies) of a fantastic brew and found I had none left. And it was a lot of effort to produce 9L.

I now have an esky mash tun and still use the BIAB bags to help with draining it and sparging. The esky does make it easier by meaning I'm not hoisting bags, but you certainly could stick to BIAB, never have to shell out for more equipment and still continue producing great beers.

The only thing to note with 2 pots - divide the hops up evenly when doing the boil - it encourages hot break on both batches.

Goomba


----------



## boriskane

cheers for the tips

yeah i think ill have to pick up that 2nd pot from bigw. hopefully theres a special on.

all went pretty smoothly today for the first half of the batch:

got 6L from the mash, then sparged for an additional 3L. 
so 9L boil of 1.068 wort, then lost 1L to evaporation. anyway, was pretty spot on. 
woke up the yeast then pitched it when the wort got down to ~20.

lets hope it has a busy night

cheers again


boris


----------



## Amber Fluid

A fantastic resource and has given me incentive. I would love to see this thread airlocked or even as a wiki.

It is a great incentive to start AG which I will do once I get rid of my 17 cans of goo.

Thanks Nick, very much appreciated.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

I agree with you amber, Nick's thread was the one that pushed me over the edge and into AG. It's all downhill from here for you mate, good luck on your first AG :icon_cheers:


----------



## Tim F

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Or 2, like I have. They just fit on the stove.
> 
> Goomba



I did my first AG in a stovetop pot too but it was a pretty cheap upgrade to go to a 40L pot. I reckon I found mine for $80 in a hardware/fishing store, seen them in continental grocers too. Then a 2 ring burner for about $20-30 which just runs off your BBQs gas bottle and you're set.


----------



## Brown_hound

Tim F said:


> I did my first AG in a stovetop pot too but it was a pretty cheap upgrade to go to a 40L pot. I reckon I found mine for $80 in a hardware/fishing store, seen them in continental grocers too. Then a 2 ring burner for about $20-30 which just runs off your BBQs gas bottle and you're set.




Is a 2 ring burner powerful enough to get 40lt to a solid boil mate?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Tim F said:


> I did my first AG in a stovetop pot too but it was a pretty cheap upgrade to go to a 40L pot. I reckon I found mine for $80 in a hardware/fishing store, seen them in continental grocers too. Then a 2 ring burner for about $20-30 which just runs off your BBQs gas bottle and you're set.



I'll upgrade eventually, it's more convenient if nothing else. But I picked up the 2nd pot cheap, and I can make good AG beer with this setup, so it works adequately for me.

Goomba


----------



## Tim F

Brown_hound said:


> Is a 2 ring burner powerful enough to get 40lt to a solid boil mate?


Yeah mine works fine, it is a little slower than a bigger one obviously but it runs fine off a standard lpg reg and I can get a 30L batch to a good boil in around 20 minutes.


----------



## davo4772

BribieG said:


> As posted elsewhere, the free software Brewmate has a heap of useful calculators including strike temperature. Highly recommended, in fact I'm using BM now instead of BS as it does what I want it to quicker and dirtier :icon_cheers:
> 
> View attachment 44522



+1 The "Brew Day" page on Brewmate is very useful. BS is great but too much there for my purposes. Brewmate is awesome.


----------



## alizzan

Just want to give a massive thanks for your hard work, Nick. The concept of AG always scared the hell out of me, and your guides have made it seem so much simpler. I'm a little annoyed, though, cos I just bought about 10kg worth of dried extract today, but I figure I can use them in partials and the like. Anyway, thanks again. Can't wait to see the difference between my first three K+K beers, and some AG.


----------



## Rosscoe

Reading Nick's thread has inspired me to try to make the leap to AG. The advice and info on this site is great. Thanks to all.

I was wondering if the method of using a 20ltr container and topping up on water is going to work for all beer types, or is it going to be necessary to try and upgrade to a bigger set-up, like a 40ltr urn? Also, what do people use to mill their grain? can you use something like a coffee grinder, or is there something more suitible that's easy to get hold of?

Thanks in advance,

Rosscoe


----------



## RdeVjun

Rosscoe said:


> I was wondering if the method of using a 20ltr container and topping up on water is going to work for all beer types, or is it going to be necessary to try and upgrade to a bigger set-up, like a 40ltr urn? Also, what do people use to mill their grain? can you use something like a coffee grinder, or is there something more suitible that's easy to get hold of?


Yep Rosscoe, stovetop BIAB methods have indeed opened the all- grain door for lots of folks who wouldn't otherwise have had the opportunity to try it. For <$50, it set my all- grain brewery up, wasn't hard at all, plus the guides & info available here and around the traps along with some helpful fellow brewers, all made it fairly straight forward for me to get going.
To be honest, no, stovetop BIAB isn't suited to all styles, but by cripes, it is pretty good for a hell of a lot of them!  There's not really any limit as far as everyday styles go, that's for sure, bigger setups might augment your equipment for a little more flexibility, but I've not seen the need in almost two years of stovetop BIABing so I've stuck with it.
BIAB isn't as fussy with its crush as other methods using a manifold of some sort for lautering, so some brewers use a coffee grinder for sure, many use a Marga Mill (available from AHB sponsors), however at the moment the $A is strong so the imported mills from the US can be landed at a very reasonable price.


----------



## Rosscoe

RdeVjun said:


> Yep Rosscoe, stovetop BIAB methods have indeed opened the all- grain door for lots of folks who wouldn't otherwise have had the opportunity to try it. For <$50, it set my all- grain brewery up, wasn't hard at all, plus the guides & info available here and around the traps along with some helpful fellow brewers, all made it fairly straight forward for me to get going.
> To be honest, no, stovetop BIAB isn't suited to all styles, but by cripes, it is pretty good for a hell of a lot of them!  There's not really any limit as far as everyday styles go, that's for sure, bigger setups might augment your equipment for a little more flexibility, but I've not seen the need in almost two years of stovetop BIABing so I've stuck with it.
> BIAB isn't as fussy with its crush as other methods using a manifold of some sort for lautering, so some brewers use a coffee grinder for sure, many use a Marga Mill (available from AHB sponsors), however at the moment the $A is strong so the imported mills from the US can be landed at a very reasonable price.




Cheers heaps RdeVjun, I'm going to grab a 20ltr pot and a bag asap and give the stovetop a go for my next brew-day. Can't wait to give it a go.

Thanks again

Rosscoe


----------



## RdeVjun

No sweat Rosscoe, feel free to let us know if you have any hassles with it. :beer:


----------



## bradsbrew

What happened to NickJD havn't seen him around for a while?

Cheers


----------



## manticle

QLDKev made him dummy spit.


----------



## Rosscoe

Nick JD said:


> It's all good.
> 
> If you went in at 73C and spent about 3 minutes paddling the mash then your mash temperature would have been ~67-68C. It's also probably why you got such a good efficiency.
> 
> I would suggest to anyone starting out to err on the high side (65-70C mash, rather than a longer 60-65C) until you know your gear.
> 
> Measuring the temperature at the end of the mash is a good idea to know how your insulation is going. The least I've ever lost is 1.5C over 90 minutes, the most about 4C - and that's too much. I now use 2 towels and a "-5C" sleeping bag which if doubled over would nearly hold the mash temperature constant. Stirring can lose a lot of heat.




Could you try to use an esky or daddy cool type set-up for BIAB to do the mash in order to not loose temp? Just an idea. I'm still putting a shopping list together in my head so I can have a go at this.

Cheers

Rosscoe


----------



## manticle

You can mash in a bag in an esky. Defeats the idea of a one pot simple BIAB but can be and often is done. You need a way of transferring the hot wort from esky to boiler/kettle without splashing.


----------



## RdeVjun

Rosscoe, yes that can be done, however it is easier just to just keep it simple by insulating your stockpot or urn thoroughly, while preheating will help minimise heat losses even more. I've found that doing so, even during winter, results in around 1C loss over 90 minutes which is quite acceptable. I use a jumper and a woollen coat from the local Op shop, though some BIABers can't help themselves and really go to town with delightfully styled ensembles etc.!  Example:


----------



## Rosscoe

RdeVjun said:


> Rosscoe, yes that can be done, however it is easier just to just keep it simple by insulating your stockpot or urn thoroughly, while preheating will help minimise heat losses even more. I've found that doing so, even during winter, results in around 1C loss over 90 minutes which is quite acceptable. I use a jumper and a woollen coat from the local Op shop, though some BIABers can't help themselves and really go to town with delightfully styled ensembles etc.!  Example:



Hee hee... Cheers guys, I appreciate the replies. I'll probably stick to the original plan to start with. I just had one eye on the temps here in Canberra at the moment and thought that maintaining temp could be a possible issue.

Rosscoe


----------



## RdeVjun

Ah yes, chilly conditions- funny how this should come up just now! (Canbbbbrrrraa!!) I'd recommend overheating the strike water by a few degrees, placing the stockpot where it will mash (I do it on the bench beside the stove with a folded towel underneath), then insulating the stockpot to pre- heat it, when the water comes down to the right temperature, open it up, drop the grain in and mash away, then cover back up with cosy pre- heated insulation. Doing it like that means there are minimal heat losses during the mash, as I say, a degree or so which is quite OK.
Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Rosscoe

RdeVjun said:


> Ah yes, chilly conditions- funny how this should come up just now! (Canbbbbrrrraa!!) I'd recommend overheating the strike water by a few degrees, placing the stockpot where it will mash (I do it on the bench beside the stove with a folded towel underneath), then insulating the stockpot to pre- heat it, when the water comes down to the right temperature, open it up, drop the grain in and mash away, then cover back up with cosy pre- heated insulation. Doing it like that means there are minimal heat losses during the mash, as I say, a degree or so which is quite OK.
> Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:




Yep, it all helps at the moment RdeVjun. Thanks heaps.

I'll let you know how I go when I get around to getting it done. Hopefully next w/end! :chug:


----------



## Nick JD

bradsbrew said:


> What happened to NickJD havn't seen him around for a while?
> 
> Cheers



Who?


----------



## stux

Brown_hound said:


> Is a 2 ring burner powerful enough to get 40lt to a solid boil mate?



In My Experience, no. The insipid boil means you don't boil off the volatiles

BUT if you add a Medium Pressure adjustable regulator then yes, plenty powerful if you crank it.

http://beerbelly.com.au/burners.html

BUT I would recommend getting a better burner at the outset... Love the Italian Spiral I picked up, which I still use with the adjustable regulators , should boil up to a 100L


----------



## Wolfman

Great thread you started Nick JD. Any chance that this method has been put in .PDF format yet? Would help in printing all the instructions out when giving it a crack soon.


----------



## Nick JD

shan0066 said:


> Great thread you started Nick JD. Any chance that this method has been put in .PDF format yet? Would help in printing all the instructions out when giving it a crack soon.



The two tutorials I've done are for a 9L batch, and for a 20L batch. I don't do either of them myself - they were done to show people both a simple way to learn, and the maximum that's easily do-able on the stove. 

I make 18L batches. There's a sweet spot with the 19L pot round about 3.3-3.5kg of grain without sparging. 

I'm thinking about doing a more definitive guide to Stovetop - including a lot more theory about what's going on (and using explained "brewing" words) - that's more in line with what I do to make beer on a regular basis, rather than what I'd _teach_ someone who didn't know WTF they were doing. 

These tutorials have been great for their simplicity, to relax the uninitiated, but I'd like to do a more in depth version that is more aligned with the "weekly batch".


----------



## adz1179

Nick JD said:


> I'm thinking about doing a more definitive guide to Stovetop - including a lot more theory about what's going on (and using explained "brewing" words) - that's more in line with what I do to make beer on a regular basis, rather than what I'd _teach_ someone who didn't know WTF they were doing.



....Would be awesome mate :super:


----------



## tones0606

Nick JD said:


> The two tutorials I've done are for a 9L batch, and for a 20L batch. I don't do either of them myself - they were done to show people both a simple way to learn, and the maximum that's easily do-able on the stove.
> 
> I make 18L batches. There's a sweet spot with the 19L pot round about 3.3-3.5kg of grain without sparging.
> 
> I'm thinking about doing a more definitive guide to Stovetop - including a lot more theory about what's going on (and using explained "brewing" words) - that's more in line with what I do to make beer on a regular basis, rather than what I'd _teach_ someone who didn't know WTF they were doing.
> 
> These tutorials have been great for their simplicity, to relax the uninitiated, but I'd like to do a more in depth version that is more aligned with the "weekly batch".



hey Nick, thanks for doing the tutorial, will be doing a 20L stovetop as soon as grains arrive.

I'll be keeping an eye out for the more detailed version you speak of


----------



## gambit

Nick JD said:


> The two tutorials I've done are for a 9L batch, and for a 20L batch. I don't do either of them myself - they were done to show people both a simple way to learn, and the maximum that's easily do-able on the stove.
> 
> I make 18L batches. There's a sweet spot with the 19L pot round about 3.3-3.5kg of grain without sparging.
> 
> I'm thinking about doing a more definitive guide to Stovetop - including a lot more theory about what's going on (and using explained "brewing" words) - that's more in line with what I do to make beer on a regular basis, rather than what I'd _teach_ someone who didn't know WTF they were doing.
> 
> These tutorials have been great for their simplicity, to relax the uninitiated, but I'd like to do a more in depth version that is more aligned with the "weekly batch".



Thanks Nick. Just done my first AG following your method. I adapted it to different recipe, suggested by my LHBS, but your method made it easy.
4.5 kg Pale Malt
100g Crystal Malt

70g Fuggles 60Min
14g East Kent Goldings 10Min
14g East Kent Goldings 0 Min

I managed to hit my OG as calculated by Brewmate, inspite of leaving quite a bit more than 500ml crud in the bottom of the pot. Just got a bit nervous when the wort stopped running clear.

I have one question - Should I transfer the 0 min hops to the fermentor?

Will definitely be trying it again, just as soon as SWMBO gets over me stinking th house out. :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## alizzan

Me too. Just put down a Dr Smurto's Golden Ale AG. Following your guide (and some of Ralph's from BIABrewer.info), I can't believe how easy it was, and how cheap it is. I've said it before, but massive, massive shout out to the cats paving the way with BIAB. There is no way I would have got into a 3V AG setup, and BIAB has opened the door for making so many more beers without that strange kit taste. Can't wait to start exploring the world of AG recipes. Nick, if you're ever in Melbourne, I owe you a beer for this.


----------



## db73

alizzan said:


> Me too. Just put down a Dr Smurto's Golden Ale AG. Following your guide (and some of Ralph's from BIABrewer.info), I can't believe how easy it was, and how cheap it is. I've said it before, but massive, massive shout out to the cats paving the way with BIAB. There is no way I would have got into a 3V AG setup, and BIAB has opened the door for making so many more beers without that strange kit taste. Can't wait to start exploring the world of AG recipes. Nick, if you're ever in Melbourne, I owe you a beer for this.


I'm doing this right now. What should the hops schedule be? Same as recipe or like this one with 25% more hops at the start of the boil?


----------



## kelbygreen

take the gravity and temp of the wort before you boil calculate what it is and then use that in a brewing software I just adjust the boil volume in beer smith until it comes up with the same pre boil gravity. If you preview the brewsheet it will tell you the pre boil gravity there. Adjust the bittering hops the same but anything after 20mins id prob leave the same.

Edit: oh if you put the original recipe into beersmith they have a adjust bitterness tab so it will calculate it all for you as the bitterness may be lower because a higher gravity boil so hit that button enter the bitterness thats in the recipe and it will adjust, you can do the same with the grain bill to if you get less or more efficiency


----------



## RdeVjun

db73, are you doing DSGA as a 20L stovetop? If so, use the original recipe's hops schedule, shouldn't be any need to adjust. If its the Aussie Lager in this thread, then 27g of 9.8% AA PoR for bittering.
After 60- odd of these over- gravity boils with no adjustment for utilisation and hitting the odd over- bittered one, I'm loathe to suggest increasing the hops on account of poorer utilisation, I just don't think it is as big a problem as once was made out. If you do some and find that the bitterness is not what you want, by all means then I'd adjust, but not as a rule from the beginning.
Congratulations you guys, BTW! :beerbang:
Edit: However, if it is just a case of scaling on account of the batch size, I'd just scale linearly based on IBU (not just mass).


----------



## db73

RdeVjun said:


> db73, are you doing DSGA as a 20L stovetop? If so, use the original recipe's hops schedule, shouldn't be any need to adjust. If its the Aussie Lager in this thread, then 27g of 9.8% AA PoR for bittering.
> After 60- odd of these over- gravity boils with no adjustment for utilisation and hitting the odd over- bittered one, I'm loathe to suggest increasing the hops on account of poorer utilisation, I just don't think it is as big a problem as once was made out. If you do some and find that the bitterness is not what you want, by all means then I'd adjust, but not as a rule from the beginning.
> Congratulations you guys, BTW! :beerbang:
> Edit: However, if it is just a case of scaling on account of the batch size, I'd just scale linearly based on IBU (not just mass).



Thanks guys. I'm doing DSGA as a 20L stove top as per this technique. I'm a little nervous as this my first BIAB!! Anyway better go 10 mins left for mash time better get sparge water up to temp


----------



## RdeVjun

No probs db73, and don't be nervous! This is a time to be thrilled that you're making lots of fantastic beer quite easily and costs bugger all!
Just to clarify, I'd scale the recipe by IBU in this case. Simple if you've got brewing software to assist, if not, give us a hoy and we can work it out.


----------



## db73

RdeVjun said:


> No probs db73, and don't be nervous! This is a time to be thrilled that you're making lots of fantastic beer quite easily and costs bugger all!
> Just to clarify, I'd scale the recipe by IBU in this case. Simple if you've got brewing software to assist, if not, give us a hoy and we can work it out.



I'm using brewmate but struggling to get my head around it. so far all readings are per this technique. 1.045 @ 58.5 degrees


----------



## kelbygreen

it would be about 1.059 at 20c. I think you will be alright you should produce a better beer then you have before. Your first one or two will be a bit confusing but you will learn from them so no need to worry just learn from it


----------



## RdeVjun

Its probably getting late now, however my suggestion is to take a few minutes to cool a small cup of wort sample in a cold water bath until its around 30C, then measure it with your hydrometer and then discard it (don't add it back to the chilled wort). The adjustments for temperature are:
35C +0.004
30C +0.003
25C +0.001
20C None
15C -0.001
As we can see, there's not a lot in it at around room temperature, however at higher temperatures the correction is considerable and also prone to error. Nb. this is also assuming your hydrometer is calibrated to 20C, most are, 15C is the other common reference temperature.

As far as the hops adjustment goes, you need to scale your hops for two factors: batch 'volume' (may get more complicated later, but that's good enough for now) and the hops AA% (Alpha Acid content- how 'strong' they are). So, if you use hops with exactly the same %AA as your recipe, it is a simple scaling- in your case if the original recipe is 25L and say the bittering addition is 25g, then for your 20L batch it will be 20g. That should yield the same IBU in your batch.
Now, with %AA, the same sort of linear scaling applies, i.e. if your hops are twice as strong in terms of %AA (say 10% instead of 5%), use half as much for the same batch volume. However, the important point is that to reproduce the same recipe at a different volume, you need to scale the additions for volume and %AA to yield the same IBU as the original recipe. 
There is another factor to consider in hops utilisation, however brewing software usually takes care of that for you without any manual intervention. Similarly, most software packages scale a recipe quite simply as well, so long as your ingredients are accurate, so I'd take the time to get familiar with BrewMate- fiddle with various ingredients and see what the effects might be.
Hope that helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## db73

RdeVjun said:


> Its probably getting late now, however my suggestion is to take a few minutes to cool a small cup of wort sample in a cold water bath until its around 30C, then measure it with your hydrometer and then discard it (don't add it back to the chilled wort). The adjustments for temperature are:
> 35C +0.004
> 30C +0.003
> 25C +0.001
> 20C None
> 15C -0.001
> As we can see, there's not a lot in it at around room temperature, however at higher temperatures the correction is considerable and also prone to error. Nb. this is also assuming your hydrometer is calibrated to 20C, most are, 15C is the other common reference temperature.
> 
> As far as the hops adjustment goes, you need to scale your hops for two factors: batch 'volume' (may get more complicated later, but that's good enough for now) and the hops AA% (Alpha Acid content- how 'strong' they are). So, if you use hops with exactly the same %AA as your recipe, it is a simple scaling- in your case if the original recipe is 25L and say the bittering addition is 25g, then for your 20L batch it will be 20g. That should yield the same IBU in your batch.
> Now, with %AA, the same sort of linear scaling applies, i.e. if your hops are twice as strong in terms of %AA (say 10% instead of 5%), use half as much for the same batch volume. However, the important point is that to reproduce the same recipe at a different volume, you need to scale the additions for volume and %AA to yield the same IBU as the original recipe.
> There is another factor to consider in hops utilisation, however brewing software usually takes care of that for you without any manual intervention. Similarly, most software packages scale a recipe quite simply as well, so long as your ingredients are accurate, so I'd take the time to get familiar with BrewMate- fiddle with various ingredients and see what the effects might be.
> Hope that helps! :icon_cheers:


Thanks RdeVjun,

Some food for thought. I really do need to a grasp on Brewmate and get my head around scaling recipes. All done and dusted now though. Got the no chill thing happening now so into the fermenter tomorrow. Looking forward to tasting the result. Also a big thanks to Nick JD for his awesome guide which got me into this in the first place. 

Regardless I'm sure the result is going to taste better than the Coopers Pale Ale with BE2 that I'm drinking right now!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

To add to what rdevjun is saying, IBU calculations will also appear to note IBU as a unilaterally changing measurement, whereas it is a good indicator, but 25 IBU derived from early hopping, as opposed to 25 IBU derived from late hopping are the same number, but entirely different things.

I'm drinking a 30IBU beer now, that was only hopped from 30 mins onwards to 10 min (with some dry hopping) and there is virtually no bitterness, just flavour. It doesn't taste like a 30IBU beer.

This is something I struggled with earlier in formulation of recipes - IBU and BU:GU are important, but some educated guesswork regarding flavour versus true bitterness (i.e. additions at 60 minutes, not 30 mins) is required. I find brewmate still doesn't do that - through no fault of its own - it's just one of those things that can be a little trial and error.

I generally work on a guesstimated formula of 15 min additions being worth half their actual IBU in perceived bitterness. That is 30 IBU derived from 15 minute additions adds a perceived IBU of around 15 (not 30). This generally helps me generate better balanced recipes. Whether it is scientifically correct, I'm not sure, but certainly I find it works for me.

Goomba


----------



## db73

db73 said:


> I'm using brewmate but struggling to get my head around it. so far all readings are per this technique. 1.045 @ 58.5 degrees



Took an OG @ 1.030 after i topped up the fermenter to 20 litres.

That can't be good


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

db73 said:


> Took an OG @ 1.030 after i topped up the fermenter to 20 litres.
> 
> That can't be good


You've just made dr smurtos lite ale :lol: I bet it'll still taste pretty good. Next time check the gravity before you top up in case your efficiency wasn't so good.


----------



## db73

mayor of mildura said:


> You've just made dr smurtos lite ale :lol: I bet it'll still taste pretty good. Next time check the gravity before you top up in case your efficiency wasn't so good.



I'm thinking my efficiency was horrible


----------



## NickB

Quite possibly, but it's all a learning experience. 

Take for example myself: have brewed all-grain for about 7 years now, and only 3 weeks ago gave BIAB a go for the first time (I usually run a HERMS setup at home).

Was extremely surprised by just how easy the process was, and whilst I did get a better efficiency than you, db73, I learnt just how easy this method was, and how much time and effort it will save those who are new to AG.

As for the Dr Smurto's lite ale, just go with it, and adjust for next time. Maybe look at the options of sparging if you have the capacity, and if not, make sure you're giving the bag a good squeeze to extract all the goodness, and don't boil too hard (easy to do on the stovetop). As mentioned above, unless you're efficiency is extremely low or extremely high, leave the hop additions as is, and adjust next brew.

Good to see so many new people getting in on BIAB. It really has been a shining example of using what you have to create some great beers.

Cheers


----------



## db73

NickB said:


> Quite possibly, but it's all a learning experience.
> 
> Take for example myself: have brewed all-grain for about 7 years now, and only 3 weeks ago gave BIAB a go for the first time (I usually run a HERMS setup at home).
> 
> Was extremely surprised by just how easy the process was, and whilst I did get a better efficiency than you, db73, I learnt just how easy this method was, and how much time and effort it will save those who are new to AG.
> 
> As for the Dr Smurto's lite ale, just go with it, and adjust for next time. Maybe look at the options of sparging if you have the capacity, and if not, make sure you're giving the bag a good squeeze to extract all the goodness, and don't boil too hard (easy to do on the stovetop). As mentioned above, unless you're efficiency is extremely low or extremely high, leave the hop additions as is, and adjust next brew.
> 
> Good to see so many new people getting in on BIAB. It really has been a shining example of using what you have to create some great beers.
> 
> Cheers



Thanks NickB,


Firstly I don't think I sparged well enough
Secondly I think I might of over boiled a little but wouldn't have thought that would lead to poor efficientcy
All and all I loved doing it a will definately go again with improvments


----------



## NickB

db73 said:


> Thanks NickB,
> 
> 
> Firstly I don't think I sparged well enough
> Secondly I think I might of over boiled a little but wouldn't have thought that would lead to poor efficientcy
> All and all I loved doing it a will definately go again with improvments



Sure, you can sparge with BIAB (although it's not a necessity), and from what I read, you should get better efficiency. Really, I think it all comes down to what's 'left in the bag' so to speak. If you have lots of sugars left due to a thick mash (take for example a 19L pot, 10L water, 4kg grain) then sure, sparge next brew and see if efficiency improves. Even give the bag a good squeeze, and run maybe 2L from the kitchen kettle through....

Over boiling should give you a higher gravity wort, but as you diluted in the fermenter to 20 odd L, you're back to a 1.030 SG. Next brew, if you're diluting in the fermenter, add the water in 1 or 2L increments until you get to your Starting Gravity. This may or may not be 23L, but if not, just ferment with whatever volume you have, and you'll likely hit your predicted FG. Adjust for the next brew by either using more grain, or sparging into your kettle.

Cheers


----------



## pimpsqueak

db73 said:


> I'm thinking my efficiency was horrible


Mine was too on my 1st BIAB. 56% or thereabouts IIRC. Did my 2nd one on saturday and got up to around 76-77%
All I did was to implement pretty much all the suggestions that fellow AHBers put my way.
My final step to improve efficiency will be to get a finer crush for my grains, but if it turns out that 77% is the norm, then that's fine with me.


----------



## NickB

pimpsqueak said:


> My final step to improve efficiency will be to get a finer crush for my grains, but if it turns out that 77% is the norm, then that's fine with me.



+1 this.

Even with my HERMS setup, I have recently taken to double crushing my grains (sure, a smaller gap on the mill would do the same thing!) and my efficiency has jumped from around 70% to well into the 80s and sometimes the 90s 

Cheers


----------



## tones0606

Awsome work Nick JD!!
brewing her up now. i added 250g Crystal malt and using Amarillo hops with ale dry yeast.
Additions are 20g @ 50 minutes, 15 g at 10 min, and 15g at flameout (im no chilling)
Hopefully all works out
Smells awsome!!


----------



## Wolfman

Could i add more than the 27g of POR hops to this recipe? What would effects be? How much would you suggest?


----------



## Nick JD

shan0066 said:


> Could i add more than the 27g of POR hops to this recipe? What would effects be? How much would you suggest?



Yes, you could add more. It would get more bitter. I would suggest adding no more - PoR is not something that is often used to create a highly bitter beer.


----------



## whippee

I would also like to say thanks for the great info on this thread. I gave it go last night, will put in fermenter today. All worked well without any issues. I will update today when I put in fermenter and measure OG. 

Just thought I would let you know that I purchased a 19l pot at Big W at Parabanks shopping center in Salisbury SA for $11.97. Plenty of them left if anyone is interested.

Once again thanks for making the leap into grain brewing cheap and user friendly. Excited about learning and experimenting more in the future.

Andy


----------



## Weatherby

With help from this thread and Craftbrewer I did my first BIAB.












Golden Promise
Caraaroma
Goldings
Craftbrewer UK yeast blend


----------



## flano

this is the beer my mates like the most out of all the stuff I have made...go figure?
I make it all the time. ..stick to the recipe for this one ...I don't add any extra sugar though.
too lazy.



less is more.


----------



## Nick JD

I made this one again for the first time in ages 2 days ago! Cept it was a 17L batch with 250g of sucrose, which eliminates the sparging fluffabout (I'm a lazy sod). And a tad lower IBUs. 

And I added 100g of Barret Burston's caramalt - which is really nice stuff, possibly underrated because it's not German. 

S189 instead of 34/70. 

Almost completely different really!  But same.


----------



## Salt

Hey Nick,

I have just picked up a 19L pot and some swiss voil and am keen to give BIAB a go for the first time. I would like to do a BIAB version of Neills Centenarillo Ale as this was my best extract brew and right up my alley in terms of flavour/hops/style etc.

I have downloaded the BIAB designer spreadsheet and am mucking around a bit with it, however in plugging in details into the spread sheet on tab two, I am getting a requirement of 27 odd litres for initial water volume required.

However want to brew as you have done, over gravity and top up with water.

Could you give me some guidance on how to construct my recipes if I was only to use your method described in this thread?

I was thinking of 4kg Base Malt (Golden Promise) along with some Crystal to build up body and colour, but keeping the grain bill simple.
I have my hop schedule as
15g Centennial @ 60min
30g Amarillo @ 15min
30g Amarillo @ 5min
and dry hop of about 15g each.

How would I go about constructing this brew, based on your methods with a 12Lt mash and topping up with water?

Any advice from yourself or others, greatly appreciated.

Cheers


----------



## Nick JD

Sounds like you have it under control. Mash your grain bill in 12L - give it some sparge action - I've found it's almost unpossible to have a boil-over with 14L in the 19L pot. 

You'll need to adjust your hop schedule to whatever volume, and gravity your boil is at.

Check out the G&G IBU calculator. When you've got all your sparge back in your pot and it's ramping up to the boil ... get your volume and your gravity ... and plan your hop schedule using their calculator on the fly. 

To be honest, I'd just add about 10% to your hops you posted to allow for the slightly higher gravity boil. But I'm no perfectionist. 

Don't be overly concerned with volumes at this stage - just know that you're boiling _above_ your target fermenter gravity, so you'll dilute to your desired SG later. With 4kg of grain you should get 20L of 1.045, if you don't hit the bull's eye, don't worry, it'll still taste like Charlize Theron's nipples.


----------



## Salt

Nick JD said:


> Either way, it'll taste like Charlize Theron's nipples.


Best reply I could have asked for....hahahhaa
Cheers for the advice...im really looking forward to giving this a nudge...have just been reading up a storm over this thread and others so I can at least think I know what I am doing when it comes to BIAB day.
Thanks for the Link and the 10% recommendation!
Salt


----------



## Fodder

Just a quick question. Going to give this a go over the weekend and at the moment dont have my hands on any swisse voil. I do however have a muslin bag left over from previous uses....I assume that this would be fine to use as my bag???

Any reasons why I couldnt use it?

Thanks


----------



## DU99

Unless it's not clean..should be fine..also long as it's big enough for the grain load


----------



## Fodder

DU99 said:


> Unless it's not clean..should be fine..also long as it's big enough for the grain load



i wouldnt quite call it clean...i've been using it as a hop sock type thingo...but nothing a good dose of bleach cant fix

Also a little unsure of whether it'll hold the whole 4kgs of grain, but thats to be tested...

But by the sounds of it, as long as she'll allow water to pass through without letting the grains out then it basically does the trick...


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

It'll work, though I reckon your efficiency won't be as good. Mine certainly wasn't, because it tended to retain more sugars.

Goomba


----------



## Fodder

ok...so I ended up buying the swisse voil bag anyway so previous concerns regarding the muslin one are no longer an issue.

However, I have a quick question regarding a couple of the steps used in the guide which are puzzling me...I'm sure there are good reasons why these steps are like they are, but I'm rather naive and have no idea.

Instead of turning off the heat and insulating the pot during the hour long mash, why couldn't you turn the heat on for a couple of brief periods in order to maintain the optimum temperature?

Also, is there any reason why you shouldn't stir the mash during that hour?

Thanks!


----------



## [email protected]

Fodder said:


> ok...so I ended up buying the swisse voil bag anyway so previous concerns regarding the muslin one are no longer an issue.
> 
> However, I have a quick question regarding a couple of the steps used in the guide which are puzzling me...I'm sure there are good reasons why these steps are like they are, but I'm rather naive and have no idea.
> 
> Instead of turning off the heat and insulating the pot during the hour long mash, why couldn't you turn the heat on for a couple of brief periods in order to maintain the optimum temperature?
> 
> Also, is there any reason why you shouldn't stir the mash during that hour?
> 
> Thanks!



I think for your first few attempts, its well worth aiming for desired mash temp, getting it, then leaving it be for 60mins.

If you insulate any dead space you may have between the top of the grain bed and the lid of the pot with some foil (shiny side down) even better if you can get some polystyrene of some sort, then insulate the outside well, blankets, sleeping bags ect you should be fine.


----------



## Nick JD

Fodder said:


> Instead of turning off the heat and insulating the pot during the hour long mash, why couldn't you turn the heat on for a couple of brief periods in order to maintain the optimum temperature?



2 Reasons: 

Firstly, the whole process of taking the insulation off and stiring (having 75+C at the bottom of the pot will denature the enzymes you're trying to coax into changing your starch into maltose) which you will need to do will remove twice as much heat as you'll replace. Getting the reheat wrong will be more of an issue that not doing it at all.

And secondly, a well insulated pot will lose about 1-3C over an hour. This is well within the mash temperatures needed - so it's simply not necessary to reheat the mash. Start at 66C and finish at 64C - sorted. 

Melting your Voile bag ... not priceless. The best way to add temperature to a mash is to add boiling water - but you need to do the maths (or the experiemnts) to work out how much.


----------



## Fodder

Knew there must be a good/scientific reason for it - re: enzymes converting starch to maltose etc, etc...

Makes enough sense. Thanks for the clarification! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Mud Gecko

I'm going to give this a go but I dont have my fermenting fridge ready to do a lager, has someone got a simple ale recipe for this AG method? I'd rather not brew anything to complicated and I have to order all the grain, hops and yeast from interstate so any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers, Gecko


----------



## Fodder

Cant find the link just now, but followed a Clone recipe from the DB. Here's what I've got ready to go for this weekend:

4kg BB Ale Malt
0.5kg JWM Wheat Malt
0.25kg Weyermann Carared
30gm POR pellets (~60min addition aiming for 30 IBU depending on AA%)

Reculturing some coopers yeast (which has been going since Monday night and appears to have worked...Yay!)

Bascially should give me a Coopers Pale Ale clone, ferment at 18-20 degrees...

EDIT: Found it - http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1103


----------



## Fodder

I should add, the only reason I went for this grain bill, is at the start of the thread a couple of peeps mentioned using exactly the same grain bill as used in the original post, but by using the Coopers yeast and fermenting at ales temps, it should create something fairly close to the Coopers Pale Ale.

This just so happens to be my go to beer and I figured I may as well give it a crack so searched for a couple of recipes which seem to fit (eg: the 4kg of BB Ale Malt is still the main show, with just a few smaller additions of something else to give it a boost). I've also only just realised, but its not stated as being a CPA clone recipe, but what the hell, it cant be far off...

I've also recultured the Coopers yeast for the first time. Surprisingly simple, yet effective...well, yet to pitch it so we'll have to wait and see, but if the starter is anything to go by there is definately activity of the good kind and quite obvious growth in yeast numbers (the sludge at the bottom seems thicker everytime I give it a swirl).

Needless to say, I'm just a little excited about the whole thing and can't wait to get cracking come Sat morn.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

My Base house Pale Ale:

Get beermate or go onto beercalculus.hopville.com and punch in:

for 25L (easy to divide), assuming you do chill (but beermate has a no chill button for adjustment):

5kg Perle Malt
.5kg of a spec malt (usually a combination of caramunich I or crystal, plus something like rye or wheat)

find a hop or two you like (I like Citra and Nelson Sauvin, especially better, Cascade seems to be a great choice and generally very popular (and cheap))

Use enough of highest AA% hop at 30 minutes to give you 15IBU
Use enough of the two hops you like at 10 minutes to give you 10-15IBU

US-05 or Notto yeast.

It's a basic formula that can be repeated across most base malts, spec malts and hop varieties and when you've done it a few times - dead simple.

I'll post one that I like:

5kg Perle Malt
.3kg Briess Red Wheat Malt
.2kg Rye Malt

15g Nelson Sauvin (11.4%) at 30m - 14IBU
20g Citra (11.1%) at 10m - 8IBU
20g Nelson Sauvin (11.4%) at 10 min - 8IBU

US-05 ferment at 16-19 degrees (ideally).


----------



## Nick JD

Coopers Ales are all about their yeast. You could have any pale-ish grain bill with bland hops boiled for 60 minutes and as long as you use their yeast, it'll taste pretty close. 

And don't forget to filter your trub through a square of swiss voile sitting in a flour sifter or colander on a bowl and freeze it (I use old yoghurt containers). Then you've got a great starter wort - just needs to be brought to the boil and cooled before you use it.

I don't recommend using more than 4kg of grain in your 19L pot. After about 3.6kg, the efficiency (amount of grain extraction) plummets.


----------



## Fodder

So I went about my 1st AG stove top yesterday and all seems to have gone well. Its now the next day and I've not long transfered to my fermentor and pitched yeast.

I do however have a couple of quick questions...

First, it seems that after my boil and cool, I had less than 10L of wort left in my pot. My 'sparge' was a bit crappy, due to 6L of water and a full grain bag not fitting into an 11L pot. So some spillage and loss of volume was had at this step. Probably about 2L, if im generous. But I believe I had about 15L to 16L in the boil after a quick top up with some more sparged water...

The cold break material was well and truely not settled at the bottom of the pot this morning and even with a colander it seems most of it went into the fermentor. I just saw you recommend filtering through more swisse voil and a colander, so will do that next time. After topping up to 22L (I was aiming for 20L but got carried away) OG was 1.032. Which seems a little low...

Im not sure how to work out my efficiency from these numbers but my 16L of wort at the boil was 1.062 @ 20 degrees. 

So, what could I do next time in order to up the efficiency?

I must admit that I did have more than 4kg of grain too...grain bill is posted on the previous page...

Any ideas about how to work out efficiency, and what I could do to get better results next time???

Thanks!


----------



## Nick JD

If you had 16L of 1.062 then diluted to 22L you will have 16/22 of 1.062 ... or 1.045.

So to get 1.032 you've either topped up to 25L+, measure your SG at boil incorrectly, or left liters in the pot.

I'd work out why you had 16L of 1.062 and then 22L of 1.032 first. Numbers don't add up. 

Unfortunately you will be ending up with a really watery, bodyless, flavourless, lite beer.


----------



## Fodder

Oh well...im not all that fussed about what ill get out of it...its the 1st go so I get what I get. Obviously room for improvement...

Certainly 22L in the fermenter, not 25L+.
The SG reading I am taking as correct. I took the sample once all liquids combined in the pot, and starting the boil. Refridgerated it till @ 20 degrees, then read the hydro as being 1.062.
I left about 1L in the pot when transfering to the fermenter.

My measurements on the 16L for the boil may be off...perhaps less volume than I estimated. If it was 15L, 14L or even less does that make the numbers stack up better? E.g: more concentrated in the sample...thus giving a higher reading?

My mash in temp was 65, mash out was 63.5 after 70mins...if that makes any diff?


----------



## Nick JD

Fodder said:


> Oh well...im not all that fussed about what ill get out of it...its the 1st go so I get what I get. Obviously room for improvement...
> 
> Certainly 22L in the fermenter, not 25L+.
> The SG reading I am taking as correct. I took the sample once all liquids combined in the pot, and starting the boil. Refridgerated it till @ 20 degrees, then read the hydro as being 1.062.
> I left about 1L in the pot when transfering to the fermenter.
> 
> My measurements on the 16L for the boil may be off...perhaps less volume than I estimated. If it was 15L, 14L or even less does that make the numbers stack up better? E.g: more concentrated in the sample...thus giving a higher reading?
> 
> My mash in temp was 65, mash out was 63.5 after 70mins...if that makes any diff?



I'd say your pot volume might be lower than you think - it's handy to get a texter and fill the pot to 10L with tap water and mark on the outside the volume, then keep going up to 18L. It's especially handy when you're doing stepped mashes having accurate volume measurements. An even quicker way to get your pot volume marks is if you have digital bathroom scales - put them ouside and fill the pot with a hose. 1L = 1kg.

It'd a good idea to get an SG and volume reading in the fermenter, before you dilute with cold tap water ... then you can get the OG you want exact.

It's easy to over dilute when adding water - I've done it a few times. What yeast are you using?


----------



## Fodder

My smaller 11L pot has got markings on already so thats easy, but the bigger 19L one doesnt. Marking that one up will be the next move by the looks.

I've recultured some Coopers Pale Ale yeast and its bubbling away nicely so thats working fine. But as you say, going to be a bit thin/flavourless and low on alco%...


----------



## super_simian

Buy a SS ruler and work out how many mm=1L. For my Big W pot, it's 15mm (averaged). Bingo, no need to try to mark the pot.


----------



## keifer33

The BIAB Calculator on http://www.biabrewer.info/ is very helpful for different temperatures of water.


----------



## craigo

i did a half size stovetop biab i ended up with about 8 or 9 litres of beer the sg after i put into fermenter was 1060 at abot 26 degrees i was aiming for about 1048 will this make any difference to my finial product? and did i get a higher og because of the evaporation of the wort during the boil could i have added more water to the wort to bring the sg down before fermenting?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Depending on mash temp (and therefore how much sugars are fermentable in your wort), you may end up with a high abv% beer. At the very least it's gong to be big.

Don't worry, my first stovetop BIAB was "big" (ended up at 7%). Great beer, and I've learnt much since.

Get brew mate, use the dilution calculator and add the required boiled water to rbing it to the SG that you want, if that's what you want to do.

Or leave it and have high abv% beer.

The choice is yours - this is why AG is waaaaay better - you are much more the master of your own brewery.

Goomba


----------



## craigo

thanks mate i dont mind big beers i just didnt no if it would effect the taste or not it was mashed in at 66 for an hr it droped to about 63 then i mashed out at 77 for 10 mins.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

It'll have lots of malt flavour and a higher amount of alcohol - if left as is.


----------



## craigo

i think i will leave it and see how it tastes this way i will learn what the effects are when i stuff up as long as it is drinkable i dont mind. time to start looking for another recipe to put down.


----------



## Nick JD

I think I need to do a thread on the mathematics of dilution.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> I think I need to do a thread on the mathematics of dilution.



Don't worry. I'm an auditor - but I know that not everyone is going to "get it" - it's easier to say "get brewmate for free and let it do the maths".

I couldn't be bothered explaining it.

Goomba


----------



## craigo

i did use brewmate and followed it to a t but i didnt sparge the grain maybe thats where i went wrong im not sure.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

craigo said:


> i did use brewmate and followed it to a t but i didnt sparge the grain maybe thats where i went wrong im not sure.



use brewmate, use the tools menu and find the dilution calculator if you want to increase your volume but decrease the FG to 1.048.

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> use brewmate, use the tools menu and find the dilution calculator if you want to increase your volume but decrease the FG to 1.048.
> 
> Goomba



If you have 9L of 1.060 and want X liters of 1.048,

60/48 = 1.25

You need to increase the volume by 1.25,

What's 1.25 times 9L?

11.25L ... so you need to add 2.25L of water.

This reliance on software to do rudimentary calculations has me worried about the edumacation system.


----------



## Rowy

I was going to do an extract brew on saturday. I hadn't seen this thread before. Now I have completely changed my mind and I am now going to do my first AG. It's been said before but great thread Nick. The pictures tell a thousand words.


----------



## craigo

is there a rule of thumb to how grain and how much water you use to make a full strength beer when you are doing a high gravity stove top biab. and what is the reasons for doing a 90 min mash instead of a 60min? do you have to dilute the wort after it has cooled or can you do it straight after your finished the boil? sorry for all the questions but im going to attempt a 20l batch of beer doing the 19l stove top method getting a higher gravity and then diluting it to my desired volume.


----------



## RdeVjun

craigo, the real rule of thumb for this caper is to completely fill the mash tun (i.e. the kettle) at mashing, so take the grainbill for a particular brew length, reserve some strike water and then when the grain is in to just use it to fill the kettle to the brim. Around 5kg tops in a 19L kettle is my advice, less than that should be much easier to manage. 
During the boil again you want to keep the kettle full as possible until about 20 minutes from the end. Using sparge liquor for this top up has it doing something constructive rather than just a plain water addition. Sparge with about 2L/ kg of grain, if you are lucky you run out of sparge liquor to add right at that 20 minute mark.
Precise volumes don't really matter, as you'll be diluting it later, and so long as your efficiency is decent (tip- set it low to begin with, 70% is a good starting point) you should come close to the mark.
You probably want to dilute the wort once it is in the fermenter, so which ever way you end up managing it prior to going in there is up to you, I guess you could dilute it beforehand though. One thing to remember is that you are diluting to a target specific gravity, not to a target volume, and its probably most reliable to do this once the wort has cooled.
90 minute mash is mostly just a personal preference, probably more useful with drier beers, but it will ensure your mash has a chance to perform. If you want to stop at 60 minutes, by all means do!
Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Weatherby

Hey Nick,

My relo's should love this beer at christmas  

If it tastes any different to what you get served at the local, I can't tell







hopefully clears up a bit over the next 24hrs


----------



## Nick JD

Weatherby said:


> Hey Nick,
> 
> My relo's should love this beer at christmas
> 
> If it tastes any different to what you get served at the local, I can't tell
> 
> hopefully clears up a bit over the next 24hrs



Good stuff.


----------



## hellbent

so I could do a batch of DrSmurto's Golden Ale in my 19ltr Big W pot no worries??


----------



## Nick JD

hellbent said:


> so I could do a batch of DrSmurto's Golden Ale in my 19ltr Big W pot no worries??



Easily. 

Here's how to scale recipes:

if the original recipe was 25L, and you want to make a 15L batch...

divide 15 by 25.

Which gives you 0.6. This is your "scaling factor".

Now multiply all the ingredients and volumes in the original recipe by 0.6. 

And make the beer.


----------



## Rowy

The thread that got me started on AG..............brings a tear to my eye Nick. Moved on a fair bit now but I still owe you that beer. :icon_cheers:


----------



## hellbent

Nick JD said:


> Easily.
> Here's how to scale recipes:
> if the original recipe was 25L, and you want to make a 15L batch...
> divide 15 by 25.
> Which gives you 0.6. This is your "scaling factor".
> 
> Now multiply all the ingredients and volumes in the original recipe by 0.6.
> And make the beer.



Nick would that include halving the yeast? in my partials I have been useing a full satchell of US-05 and sprinkling over the wort in fermenter... Somehow seems to me that half a satchell of yeast is a tad

light on?..........Thanks again for your help


----------



## Nick JD

hellbent said:


> Nick would that include halving the yeast? in my partials I have been useing a full satchell of US-05 and sprinkling over the wort in fermenter... Somehow seems to me that half a satchell of yeast is a tad
> 
> light on?..........Thanks again for your help



What's the recipe use?


----------



## hellbent

Nick JD said:


> What's the recipe use?




the recipe states 11.5g for a full 20ltr wort.... that would by your calculations make it approx 8.6g.... on reflection I guess thats not to bad...


----------



## Nick JD

hellbent said:


> the recipe states 11.5g for a full 20ltr wort.... that would by your calculations make it approx 8.6g.... on reflection I guess thats not to bad...



My calculations were just an example using random figures - remember to use the actual volume figures.

I'd just pitch the whole packet in 15-18L.


----------



## hellbent

Nick JD said:


> My calculations were just an example using random figures - remember to use the actual volume figures.
> 
> I'd just pitch the whole packet in 15-18L.




Thanks for that, now just one more question and I promise to stop pestering you.... I'm doing a 15ltr BIAB using a recipe based on DSGA that calls for :-

1.2 kg Weyermann Pilsner ...
600g Weyermann Pale Wheat 
600g Weyermann Munich I 
187g Weyermann Caramunich I .........

now the sad fact is I have only 450g munich 1 & same in Munich 2..... I have plenty of pilsner and plenty of caramunich.... you reckon I'd get awaqy with it just using what I have??
or is it asking a bit to much being so light on?
I don't wish to order more in at the moment and as the grain has been milled I want to use it up ASAP.... thanks again for your help.
cheers


----------



## Nick JD

hellbent said:


> Thanks for that, now just one more question and I promise to stop pestering you.... I'm doing a 15ltr BIAB using a recipe based on DSGA that calls for :-
> 
> 1.2 kg Weyermann Pilsner ...
> 600g Weyermann Pale Wheat
> 600g Weyermann Munich I
> 187g Weyermann Caramunich I .........
> 
> now the sad fact is I have only 450g munich 1 & same in Munich 2..... I have plenty of pilsner and plenty of caramunich.... you reckon I'd get awaqy with it just using what I have??
> or is it asking a bit to much being so light on?
> I don't wish to order more in at the moment and as the grain has been milled I want to use it up ASAP.... thanks again for your help.
> cheers



Make it up to be the same total grain amount. The proportions make the recipe - but you might be actually improving the recipe by tweaking it. Wouldn't be the first time adversity has improved something.

This stuff ain't set in concrete. You know what to do - trust your instincts.


----------



## hellbent

Thanks Nick, as usual your advice is invaluable to guys like me....
cheers


----------



## aroo75

Nick JD said:


> Easily.
> 
> Here's how to scale recipes:
> 
> if the original recipe was 25L, and you want to make a 15L batch...
> 
> divide 15 by 25.
> 
> Which gives you 0.6. This is your "scaling factor".
> 
> Now multiply all the ingredients and volumes in the original recipe by 0.6.
> 
> And make the beer.


 

I did the Golden Ale with pretty much with the same original recipe grain amounts (total 4kg) in 12 L for a higher gravity boil. As I said in another post it was very messy sparge. Used full pack of US-05 in final diluted volume to 15L - is fermenting like a champion @15C for last 5 days. I too thought to using 1/2 a pack @15L was on the borderline. Can reuse this yeast again for next one. 

With the ~2.5kg grain bill it will be a rewarding brew day - good luck


----------



## indorat

Hiya!

I am currently brewing my first AG following this recipe, but I have misplaced my irish moss. Am I doomed?!? 

-Joel


----------



## Nick JD

JEG said:


> Hiya!
> 
> I am currently brewing my first AG following this recipe, but I have misplaced my irish moss. Am I doomed?!?
> 
> -Joel



Doesn't matter too much. Use them next time.


----------



## indorat

Nick JD said:


> Doesn't matter too much. Use them next time.



No worries!

Thanks for the step by step recipe Nick. Hopefully it all runs smoothly!


----------



## Darkonnis

Aye I'm definitely gonna give this a go. Surprisingly though coming by a 15L stove pot round here seems to be impossible so i'm waiting for a delivery.
Gonna try 1kg Maris Otter, and I have some Phoenix hops here, not a clue what it's going to turn out like and im not entirely sure how much hops to add but i figure with this small a batch, the experience is worth more than the beer  
Thanks nick, great guide.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Darkonnis said:


> ..... but i figure with this small a batch, the experience is worth more than the beer
> Thanks nick, great guide.



That's the essence of it. 

Making AG beer in 9L lots is (alongside fermenting at 30 degrees and finding that the beer is awful) a quick way to get fed up with brewing.

Use 9L for experience, not for long term brewing.

And find your own way to brew full sized batches. 

The fact that I do full sized on the stove is proof that you needn't obtain large amounts of expensive equipment to make beer.

Goomba


----------



## [email protected]

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> That's the essence of it.
> 
> Making AG beer in 9L lots is (alongside fermenting at 30 degrees and finding that the beer is awful) a quick way to get fed up with brewing.
> 
> Use 9L for experience, not for long term brewing.
> 
> And find your own way to brew full sized batches.
> 
> The fact that I do full sized on the stove is proof that you needn't obtain large amounts of expensive equipment to make beer.
> 
> Goomba



Funny that i am completely the opposite.
Brewing large batches of the same beer that i would have to drink my way through would be a very quick way for me to become fed up with brewing.
All depends on how much you intend to drink and how quickly, variety is the spice of life and fresh is best and i also enjoy "having" to brew more often....


----------



## Nick JD

Make whatever sized batch you like. It's your liver.


----------



## Maheel

id make 9L batches if i had some 9L kegs


----------



## Nick JD

Maheel said:


> id make 9L batches if i had some 9L kegs



I regularly put as little as 12L in a 19L keg. Where's the rule that says you have to fill them?


----------



## Darkonnis

Pan arrived, made a batch up. I was initially going to go for a smash. but in the end i looked at it and thought well **** it. whats the worst that can happen (7L or undrinkable beer?)
1kg Munich malt
1kg Maris Otter
13g Phoenix hops for 15 mins.
OG according to the calculator posted earlier on this thread was 1069 so its likely i should have topped it up with some water but its done now. 
Wasn't as easy as i was expecting actually. But that was mostly down to me having a small kitchen, no free work tops and no bowl big enough to get all of my grain into, taste quite nice though.
Fucked up the yeast though, completely forgot to sterilise the glass i put half my s04 in and the other half i hydrated in a sterile glass just didnt feel like playing. As i was splitting my brew into two 5L demijons anyway i just split the wort and yeast and marked the non sterile yeast one just on the off chance. The non sterile one got straight to it and at present is churning over with foam etc etc and the sterile one is quitely going about its business with a thing layer of foam. Just have to see how it goes. It'll go better next time


----------



## kierent

This quote from Nick's original tutorial...



Nick JD said:


> I would have taken an OG but as you can see the water is sitting on top of the wort! I'll have to give it a while to let it homogenize and then get an OG.



First of all, thanks Nick, ripper tutorial! I'm sitting down for the 90min mash phase as we speak but just had a quick question about this. When you say the water is sitting on top of the wort is that because you have to add the water and not mix it to the wort for some reason, or just that even after adding the water it doesn't mix properly until the yeast starts eating? 

I've only done partials before this but have always thought a good shake of the wort aids oxygen levels and therefore yeast performance. Is this right for AG too? So can I add water to correct volume, shake and then do the OG? Not necessarily expecting an answer in time for this brew but I plan on brewing like this in future so would be good to know. 

Thanks


----------



## RdeVjun

Yep, its an awesome thread is this Kieren! :beerbang: 
I'd say it was because the water didn't mix well with the concentrated wort when added initially, that's no biggie. There's loads of turbulence to mix things up once the yeast get going, but if you want an accurate OG value, it probably won't hurt to mix it up before then. Either way, you'll end up with beer, loads of it in fact! :icon_cheers: 
Yes, aeration will help just about every starting wort, so don't be afraid to splash it about but just keep it all sanitary, however once your wort has had yeast for a few days- no more oxygenation is necessary.


----------



## kierent

Thanks for the quick response!! Cheers :beerbang:


----------



## lukiferj

Thanks Nick! Great simple to follow instructions. Will look at doing my first BIAB in the next few weeks once some of my current equipment frees up.

Cheers,
Luke


----------



## paulmclaren11

I have now done this method 3 times, and it is easy as and the quality is great and worth the extra time.

Following Nick JD's advice I bought a coffee grinder to get a consistent mill and take it to a fine powder.

However, when I add the grain once at strike temp I am getting heaps of dough balls! I think it takes me about 5 mins to get rid of them all.

Am I grinding too fine... or is this the norm? Trying to mash all the balls out has reduced my mash temps a little, but as I am still learning the AG caper I am not that fussed and have been hitting close to the numbers I want.

Is there a technique to be used when adding this finely ground grain - I have been adding it all at once.


Cheers again, I am hooked on AG now!


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> I have now done this method 3 times, and it is easy as and the quality is great and worth the extra time.
> 
> Following Nick JD's advice I bought a coffee grinder to get a consistent mill and take it to a fine powder.
> 
> However, when I add the grain once at strike temp I am getting heaps of dough balls! I think it takes me about 5 mins to get rid of them all.
> 
> Am I grinding too fine... or is this the norm? Trying to mash all the balls out has reduced my mash temps a little, but as I am still learning the AG caper I am not that fussed and have been hitting close to the numbers I want.
> 
> Is there a technique to be used when adding this finely ground grain - I have been adding it all at once.
> 
> 
> Cheers again, I am hooked on AG now!



Here's a way to sort out an extremely fine mash and dough balls.

Fill up only to about 8~9L with just hot tap water, put in your bag and then dump in your grain. You should end up (of course this depends on your hot tap water temp) with about 45-50C mash.

This is below the temperature that the starch will dough-up, so you just get a nice thick, slippery porridge. 

Put 2L of water in the coffee kettle and boil it. This will give you about 52-55C when you add it (while stiriring). By the time the kettle has boiled again, you've done a few minute protein rest. 

Add the next 2L and you'll get up to ~62C. You can leave it here if you want a dry beer, or you can add another 2L and get up to ~66C. You've probably hit the rim of the 19L pot about there.

This will both eliminate doughballs, give you a wicked efficiency and give you most of the benefits of an stepped infusion mash ... just gotta boil the kettle 3 or 4 times. 

Alternatively, get your HBS to mill your grain or cough up a few hundred for a mill setup.

I infuse often (usually 45C, 52C, 60C, 64C) because it makes a better beer. Dry with head-retention.

Once you work out your gear you can put the lid on in these periods between adding the next kettle and do a full on stepped mash. Takes notes and refine. Google "Hochkurz mash".


----------



## paulmclaren11

Great thanks Nick, will give this a go next time I do it.

I can already see me upgrading to larger scale gear once the wifey lets me.... ;0


----------



## Nossil

I did my second and third ever biab 20L stovetop batches over the weekend. 


I'm having a bit of trouble with efficiency (i think?).

4kg grains, after topping up to 18 or 19L only getting around 1.040. Never higher. 


Mash @ around 64/65 *C for 90 minutes. Usually only losing 1 maybe 2 degrees over that time. 

For sparging I heat around 4L of 70*c in a seperate pot, then after the mash I put the grain bag into a big bucket, open it up and poor the 4L of water over the grains. Then I dunk it in like a teapag a dozen or so time. Then tie it to the door handle and wait for 10 mins whilst it drips. Then i squeeze the juices from it as best i can and add the contents in the bucket back to the 19L boil. 


After 1hr boiling usually left with around 11L in the pot. Topping up another 7 or 8L gives my 1.040. 

Does this sound about right? Final ABV should be roughly 4% if FG is around 1.010. 




What's the next step up from the stovetop? Suppose buying a 30L Urn to do full volume mash?


----------



## glenwal

20L batches/4KG of grain on a stovetop is pushing the limits, so you have to work hard for it. For your 2nd or 3rd attempt, your results sound pretty good. I still do all my brewing in a big W pot, and hit about 85% efficiency for a 20L batch. The most important things (that i've found) are

- Fill your pot to the brim for the mash. 

- A 90 min (or longer) boil. The additional boil time means more boil off, which means you can top up with more sparge water.

- A really good sparge. You'll want more than 4L of sparge water. I top up the pot up with sparge water pre-boil (whilst it's comming up to the boil), and then again during the boil (until about 15-20mins from the end). Keeping the pot topped up (lean how full you can go without boiling over) with sparge water during the boil means you keep adding more sugar and improving your efficiency. Then I only need a couple of liters of water to top up in the fermenter.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Glen W said:


> 20L batches/4KG of grain on a stovetop is pushing the limits, so you have to work hard for it. For your 2nd or 3rd attempt, your results sound pretty good. I still do all my brewing in a big W pot, and hit about 85% efficiency for a 20L batch. The most important things (that i've found) are
> 
> - Fill your pot to the brim for the mash.
> 
> - A 90 min (or longer) boil. The additional boil time means more boil off, which means you can top up with more sparge water.
> 
> - A really good sparge. You'll want more than 4L of sparge water. I top up the pot up with sparge water pre-boil (whilst it's comming up to the boil), and then again during the boil (until about 15-20mins from the end). Keeping the pot topped up (lean how full you can go without boiling over) with sparge water during the boil means you keep adding more sugar and improving your efficiency. Then I only need a couple of liters of water to top up in the fermenter.



+1 - all sound advice.

I now use my ghetto lauter to sparge in - less labour and higher efficiency despite less labour. Now consistently around 85% and not the same labour as I did when trying to bucket sparge/pasta pot sparge with BIAB.


----------



## Nick JD

I very rarely do 20L batches. Yesterday I did a 14L batch of cascade IPA.

Two ways of dealing with 1 pot stove brewing: accept that 15-17L batches are easy and cope with that; or buy some big gear.

Sweet spot with this method is 3.5kg and 17L, no sparging necessary - just a hefty squeeze. You lose 3L, but you really don't lose any sugaz.

Also, 250g of sucrose is perfectly accepable in a lager like this, and will give you an extra 0.5% or 1.005 for nix.

If you wanna make a really big beer, just don't (or a tiny bit) dilute.


----------



## paulmclaren11

This may be a silly question....

Nick you state the sweet spot for the 19ltr pot method is 3.5kg of Grain and 17 litres.. do you mean only dilute to 17 ltrs in the fermenter or a 17 ltr mash/boil?

I have been wanting to do a bigger IPA type beer with this method, could you share your grain bill for the 14 litre cascade IPA you mention to get an idea of what you did?

Thanks again from a noob


----------



## Nossil

Glen W said:


> 20L batches/4KG of grain on a stovetop is pushing the limits, so you have to work hard for it. For your 2nd or 3rd attempt, your results sound pretty good. I still do all my brewing in a big W pot, and hit about 85% efficiency for a 20L batch. The most important things (that i've found) are
> 
> - Fill your pot to the brim for the mash.
> 
> - A 90 min (or longer) boil. The additional boil time means more boil off, which means you can top up with more sparge water.
> 
> - A really good sparge. You'll want more than 4L of sparge water. I top up the pot up with sparge water pre-boil (whilst it's comming up to the boil), and then again during the boil (until about 15-20mins from the end). Keeping the pot topped up (lean how full you can go without boiling over) with sparge water during the boil means you keep adding more sugar and improving your efficiency. Then I only need a couple of liters of water to top up in the fermenter.



Great advice, thanks.

Would never have thought to keep sparging after adding the initial sparge wort to the boiler! Makes so much sense that the efficiency will increase if you add sparge water instead of tap water! 

1 Question though, lets just say you are 15 minutes out from flame-out, and you add another say 2-3 litres of precious sparge wort, this stops the boil temporarily as the sparge water will be cooler (lets say its cooled to 60*c during the final sparge process). As the boil has stopped, and takes another say 5-10 minutes to get back to full boil do you pause the boil time until it reaches boiling again?


----------



## glenwal

Nossil said:


> 1 Question though, lets just say you are 15 minutes out from flame-out, and you add another say 2-3 litres of precious sparge wort, this stops the boil temporarily as the sparge water will be cooler (lets say its cooled to 60*c during the final sparge process). As the boil has stopped, and takes another say 5-10 minutes to get back to full boil do you pause the boil time until it reaches boiling again?



I generally try to add smaller quantities (about 500ml) more often so it doesn't kill the boil. The other alternative is to bring the sparge water up to temp in a 2nd smaller pot.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

paulmclaren11 said:


> This may be a silly question....
> 
> Nick you state the sweet spot for the 19ltr pot method is 3.5kg of Grain and 17 litres.. do you mean only dilute to 17 ltrs in the fermenter or a 17 ltr mash/boil?
> 
> I have been wanting to do a bigger IPA type beer with this method, could you share your grain bill for the 14 litre cascade IPA you mention to get an idea of what you did?
> 
> Thanks again from a noob



Boil longer.

If I do a 90 minute plus boil, I can (without too much effort) get 1.070 gravity at 23L from my two pot system, so a 14L IPA wouldn't be out of the question - it's just the time factor involved.


----------



## thylacine

Nossil said:


> I did my second and third ever biab 20L stovetop batches over the weekend.
> 
> 
> I'm having a bit of trouble with efficiency (i think?).
> 
> 4kg grains, after topping up to 18 or 19L only getting around 1.040. Never higher.
> 
> 
> Mash @ around 64/65 *C for 90 minutes. Usually only losing 1 maybe 2 degrees over that time.
> 
> For sparging I heat around 4L of 70*c in a seperate pot, then after the mash I put the grain bag into a big bucket, open it up and poor the 4L of water over the grains. Then I dunk it in like a teapag a dozen or so time. Then tie it to the door handle and wait for 10 mins whilst it drips. Then i squeeze the juices from it as best i can and add the contents in the bucket back to the 19L boil.
> 
> 
> After 1hr boiling usually left with around 11L in the pot. Topping up another 7 or 8L gives my 1.040.
> 
> Does this sound about right? Final ABV should be roughly 4% if FG is around 1.010.
> 
> 
> My ex-FWK containers are now my fermenters. ie. 15-15.5L batch size. I use 3.1 kgs base malt and 200-400g specialty grains. Similar to your process description, I use two Big W pots. The second for a dunk sparge. ie. 14L strike water, cover & mash for 90min minimum. second pot has 8L heated to 78c and when the bag & grains are inserted into this pot I give the grains a steady stir for a few minutes. I also always perform a mash-out to 78c, stirring continually. My OG is consistently 1050-1054
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry921224
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the next step up from the stovetop? Suppose buying a 30L Urn to do full volume mash?


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> do you mean only dilute to 17 ltrs in the fermenter or a 17 ltr mash/boil?
> 
> I have been wanting to do a bigger IPA type beer with this method, could you share your grain bill for the 14 litre cascade IPA you mention to get an idea of what you did?



Follow the same methodology as with the 20L brew (but without any sparging) - do a ~17-18L mash with 3.5kg, squeeze the bag and return runnings to the pot, top up to ~14L, boil, then top up to 17L in the fermenter. Probably be about 1.050, depends on your gear and processes.

_NZ Cascade IPA
American IPA

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 14.0
Total Grain (kg): 3.900
Total Hops (g): 55.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.068 (P): 16.6
Final Gravity (FG): 1.016 (P): 4.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 6.86 %
Colour (SRM): 9.4 (EBC): 18.5
Bitterness (IBU): 57.9 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.500 kg Pale Ale Malt (89.74%)
0.200 kg Cane Sugar (5.13%)
0.200 kg Caramunich III (5.13%)

Hop Bill
----------------
20.0 g Galena Pellet (10% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.4 g/L)
30.0 g Cascade Pellet (8.9% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (2.1 g/L)
5.0 g Galaxy Pellet (13.4% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with Safale US-05_

This stovetop caper is all about altering your volume, not your grain amount. Same grain bill every time (~3.5kg) ... different volume. You get 23L of a mild, you only get 14L of a strong.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Great thanks again Nick


----------



## flano

any reason why the grain is milled to almost a fine powder for BIAB?

I use a monster mill and it is nowhere near a fine powder.....still works...still tastes good....still get me pissed....still gets my mates coming over and drinking my beer then leaving ...stills gives me some cracking hangovers.

Will my beer be better with a finer milling using BIAB?

CHEERS.


----------



## Nick JD

Flano said:


> Will my beer be better with a finer milling using BIAB?



No. 

People who mill fine do it because they haven't got a mill but are using kitchen appliances which don't crack the grains but smash them up.

Does it makes a worse beer? I can't tell the difference, and I've brewed the same recipe with store-milled and blender-milled. They are both great.

Will it make a difference to my efficiency? Yes - you'll probably get about 5% more, but this comes at a cost of more trub (not really an issue) and a slower-draining bag, and more doughballs.

This thread is not intended for those who are willing to shell out $200 on a mill; it's for people who want to try AG brewing and _don't_ want to spend that much ... yet.


----------



## flano

Nick JD said:


> No.
> 
> People who mill fine do it because they haven't got a mill but are using kitchen appliances which don't crack the grains but smash them up.
> 
> Does it makes a worse beer? I can't tell the difference, and I've brewed the same recipe with store-milled and blender-milled. They are both great.
> 
> Will it make a difference to my efficiency? Yes - you'll probably get about 5% more, but this comes at a cost of more trub (not really an issue) and a slower-draining bag, and more doughballs.
> 
> This thread is not intended for those who are willing to shell out $200 on a mill; it's for people who want to try AG brewing and _don't_ want to spend that much ... yet.




cheers mate,

I have noticed the ease in mashing it less milled...no dough balls.

Loving the BIAB by the way ...made a great american pale ale using your technique... a fair whack of dark crystal in it and dry hopped with .
Bit of a fluke beer...threw what I had laying around in.

One mate reckons it is as good as any good quality micro brewed stuff. ...and he is a piss head.


----------



## soundawake

Well, I finally got around to trying this out a couple of weeks ago. Followed instructions to the letter except I used a Coopers Pale clone grain bill with recultured Coopers yeast instead.

Efficiency was in the toilet. After letting it cool overnight, I poured it into the fermenter and only got about 8 litres. Topped up to 19 L and ended up with an OG of 1.030. D'oh! I should have topped up only to 15L or so. In hindsight I also should have used one of the calcs on Brewmate to add dex or LDME to get the gravity to where it should have been - around 1.042. One thing I also forgot to do was add half a whirlfloc tablet near the end of the boil. This would have helped! What an idiot.

Not to worry, I did plan to possibly toss this beer out if it wasn't good and use it as a pure training/learning exercise. 

Next one I plan to do is Dr Smurto's Golden Ale, although I'll need a hopsock for that due to multiple hop additions (I used a stainless hopball for the single addition of POR last time).


----------



## Nossil

I kegged & gellatined the beer in this thread last friday and tried it last night..

Was pretty good! Dead ringer for Carlton Draught. Not my drink of choice but the purpose of my first BIAB was to follow Nick's instructions exactly and see what i got. So the experiment worked! 

Pretty poor head retention (even after adding in i think 100-200grams of carapills grain -the only modification to the initial instructions). One day i'll get around to figuring out how to maintain a decent head. At least the beer taste good thats the main thing. 



Pic attached, not sure if the gellatine helped with the clarity or if thats the way it would have looked without the gellatine anyway. Thoughts?


----------



## Nick JD

soundawake said:


> Well, I finally got around to trying this out a couple of weeks ago. Followed instructions to the letter except I used a Coopers Pale clone grain bill with recultured Coopers yeast instead.
> 
> Efficiency was in the toilet. After letting it cool overnight, I poured it into the fermenter and only got about 8 litres. Topped up to 19 L and ended up with an OG of 1.030. D'oh! I should have topped up only to 15L or so. In hindsight I also should have used one of the calcs on Brewmate to add dex or LDME to get the gravity to where it should have been - around 1.042. One thing I also forgot to do was add half a whirlfloc tablet near the end of the boil. This would have helped! What an idiot.
> 
> Not to worry, I did plan to possibly toss this beer out if it wasn't good and use it as a pure training/learning exercise.
> 
> Next one I plan to do is Dr Smurto's Golden Ale, although I'll need a hopsock for that due to multiple hop additions (I used a stainless hopball for the single addition of POR last time).


----------



## glenwal

Nossil said:


> Was pretty good! Dead ringer for Carlton Draught.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxymoron


----------



## soundawake

Nick JD said:


>




LOL yep, my exact quote to my friend who was helping was 'well, I think I've made a Mild Ale.'

I should add - Nick, thanks for making these easy as piss tutorials available on AHB. They were the sole reason I decided to try out all grain.


----------



## Nick JD

Nossil said:


> Pic attached, not sure if the gellatine helped with the clarity or if thats the way it would have looked without the gellatine anyway. Thoughts?



Looks great! 

Gelatine works a treat with yeasts that aren't very flocculant. On yeasts that are, it doesn't really do much as those yeasts like to clump and fall anyway.

Most of the dried lager yeasts aren't great at flocculating out - but I often use it just to speed up the process in an Aussie Lager type beer, because why wait for ages for something with POR in it! My Euro lagers get a bit of cold conditioning though, so often don't get gelatined. S189 will get crystal clear in a week of secondary at <7C, so will 34/70.


----------



## Nossil

I haven't started experimenting with different yeasts yet. Sticking the the Safale 05 for the moment, experimenting with recycling the trub. After a get a few more brews under my belt I'll branch out into different yeasts. So not to sure if gelatine is helping s05 yeast clump together but its not hurting it  

I don't have a fridge for cold crashing either. 




Glen W said:


> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxymoron




hahahahaha, i know i know. Its not terrible, but its _pretty good. 

_My second and third BIAB batches a brewing at the moment. Truckloads of cascade and Nelson sauvin hops with some different grains... judging how this beer came out _pretty good,_ i think this next beer will be freakin awesome


----------



## Nick JD

Nossil said:


> So not to sure if gelatine is helping s05 yeast clump together but its not hurting it



US05? The gelatine is fully helping that.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> US05? The gelatine is fully helping that.


+1


----------



## Nossil

Nick JD said:


> US05? The gelatine is fully helping that.




Yep thats the one. In the pink packet. 
Good to know!


----------



## sgw86

Hi All,

I have spent the better part of today reading through this thread and am now quite excited to attempt to move into AG using Nick's method. I have recently been brewing Extract with Specality grains and have had some great results though really wanted to move to AG using my original 19L BigW stockpot. So thanks to Nick for the tutorial.

I have just a few quick questions before I dive in and have a crack. I will be using my 19L stockpot.


1. Can I use this as my bag to hold the grain? http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=8822 I see people going to spotlight etc. but will the one at G&G do the job?

2. I will be topping the fermenter up with chilled water to achieve the 21L for fermentation. So boiling with 12-14L as suggested. Do I need to sparge and when is it required to sparge (will be following Nicks sparging guide)

3. What is the limit of grain that can be used for this method using the 12L suggested for the mash.

I will probably have more questions as I try to wrap my head around the method and AG brewing but thanks in advance for the help.



Cheers.


----------



## glenwal

Sambo7 said:


> 1. Can I use this as my bag to hold the grain? http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=8822 I see people going to spotlight etc. but will the one at G&G do the job?


Definately - the sheet of voile from spotlight is just the tight ass version.



Sambo7 said:


> 2. I will be topping the fermenter up with chilled water to achieve the 21L for fermentation.


Don't plan on topping up to 21L. Measure your gravity when you're done and top up based on the OG you want to achieve.



Sambo7 said:


> Do I need to sparge and when is it required to sparge (will be following Nicks sparging guide)


Yes, you'll need to sparge - i'd recommend topping the pot up with sparge water before the boil to as full as your comfortable with (not too full or it'll boil over and make a mess), and as you boil off liquid, top back up with sparge water. The more sparge water you can squeeze in (instead of topping up with plain water) the better your efficiency and hence the more beer you'll get. 




Sambo7 said:


> 3. What is the limit of grain that can be used for this method using the 12L suggested for the mash.


 If you want to make your life easy, stick to 3-3.5kg grain max (note: you won't get 21L, maybe 15-17L). With a good sparge and effort though you can push it up to about 4.5kg without issues


----------



## sgw86

Glen W said:


> Definately - the sheet of voile from spotlight is just the tight ass version.
> 
> Don't plan on topping up to 21L. Measure your gravity when you're done and top up based on the OG you want to achieve.
> 
> Yes, you'll need to sparge - i'd recommend topping the pot up with sparge water before the boil to as full as your comfortable with (not too full or it'll boil over and make a mess), and as you boil off liquid, top back up with sparge water. The more sparge water you can squeeze in (instead of topping up with plain water) the better your efficiency and hence the more beer you'll get.
> 
> 
> If you want to make your life easy, stick to 3-3.5kg grain max (note: you won't get 21L, maybe 15-17L). With a good sparge and effort though you can push it up to about 4.5kg without issues



Thanks for the feedback mate. I will follow the exact method posted by Nick on the first page for my first attempt. Coming from doing Extract I included Dextrose in nearly all my brews....and I usually am only brewing Lagers or Pilsners lately. If I follow the boil size etc. from the initial method posted by Nick but add say 400-500g of Dextrose to the 60min Boil this will increase my Alc % if I top the fermenter up to 20-21L?

So not to create too many posts I was thinking for my first attempt to create an Aussie Lager similar to say a Draught (I know people will frown on this).

3-3.5kg Pilsner Malt (Perhaps Joe White Pilsner Malt from G&G)
400g Dextrose

90min mash @ 65C

As for crushing the grain do I need to blitz it in a coffee grinder or will I get the same efficiency if I get G&G to mill the grain for me?

Cheers,

Sam.


----------



## glenwal

Sambo7 said:


> 3-3.5kg Pilsner Malt (Perhaps Joe White Pilsner Malt from G&G)
> 400g Dextrose



Bitter with POR to 20-25 IBU and you'll have a pretty good brew that'll please any mega swill drinker.

Getting G&G to mill your grain is fine. In the long run though you'll find it cheaper to jump in on a bulk buy and grab a 25KG sack, and then you'll need to blitz it yourself (or get a mill).


----------



## flano

Sambo7 said:


> Thanks for the feedback mate. I will follow the exact method posted by Nick on the first page for my first attempt. Coming from doing Extract I included Dextrose in nearly all my brews....and I usually am only brewing Lagers or Pilsners lately. If I follow the boil size etc. from the initial method posted by Nick but add say 400-500g of Dextrose to the 60min Boil this will increase my Alc % if I top the fermenter up to 20-21L?
> 
> So not to create too many posts I was thinking for my first attempt to create an Aussie Lager similar to say a Draught (I know people will frown on this).
> 
> 3-3.5kg Pilsner Malt (Perhaps Joe White Pilsner Malt from G&G)
> 400g Dextrose
> 
> 90min mash @ 65C
> 
> As for crushing the grain do I need to blitz it in a coffee grinder or will I get the same efficiency if I get G&G to mill the grain for me?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Sam.



just get them to mill it for you.

It will still work no problemo.


I do 4kg's ( max ) of grain per 19 lit pot. Works great. Using Nicks Thread as a guide.

I have found those single grain batches are a bit boring...they work perfectly though
But if you love pils'
Give one a go . keep the sugar for your corn flakes. I did it once and noticed that shit home brew taste which I put down to adding sugar like in the kit beer.

I am sure people will say I am wrong ..but in my mind I know I am right 

try this ( pick the cheapest grain to start with and JW pils is the cheapest one of all I think

3.8 kg JW pils

.200 kg weyerman carapils

25 grams saaz pellets at 60 , 25 and 5 min from end of boil. Put them in their own little bag during the boil.

Ferment pretty cold between 10 -15 ( great now mid winter ) give 3 weeks in fermenter. Using that pils yeast in the yellow packet.US-23???

I would even stick fermenter in spare fridge for a few days at the end to clear it up some more.

This is just a standard recipe that I would knock out off the top of my head and I bet it works pretty well.

good luck.

It is not as precise as it all sounds...I make it up on the spot all the time and they all seem to be pretty good.

Just look at the recipe base on this website and do a version close enough to what you have available.


----------



## sgw86

Flano said:


> just get them to mill it for you.
> 
> It will still work no problemo.
> 
> 
> I do 4kg's ( max ) of grain per 19 lit pot. Works great. Using Nicks Thread as a guide.
> 
> I have found those single grain batches are a bit boring...they work perfectly though
> But if you love pils'
> Give one a go . keep the sugar for your corn flakes. I did it once and noticed that shit home brew taste which I put down to adding sugar like in the kit beer.
> 
> I am sure people will say I am wrong ..but in my mind I know I am right
> 
> try this ( pick the cheapest grain to start with and JW pils is the cheapest one of all I think
> 
> 3.8 kg JW pils
> 
> .200 kg weyerman carapils
> 
> 25 grams saaz pellets at 60 , 25 and 5 min from end of boil. Put them in their own little bag during the boil.
> 
> Ferment pretty cold between 10 -15 ( great now mid winter ) give 3 weeks in fermenter. Using that pils yeast in the yellow packet.US-23???
> 
> I would even stick fermenter in spare fridge for a few days at the end to clear it up some more.
> 
> This is just a standard recipe that I would knock out off the top of my head and I bet it works pretty well.
> 
> good luck.
> 
> It is not as precise as it all sounds...I make it up on the spot all the time and they all seem to be pretty good.
> 
> Just look at the recipe base on this website and do a version close enough to what you have available.




Flano,

Thanks for the feedback! Good to see 4kg can be done. PS. Check your personal messages.

Wondering if anybody has some recipes for Lagers using Nicks AG guide. Even a Californian Common that I have been wanting to try for a while.

Cheers,

Sam.


----------



## emnpaul

Sambo7 said:


> Flano,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback! Good to see 4kg can be done. PS. Check your personal messages.
> 
> Wondering if anybody has some recipes for Lagers using Nicks AG guide. Even a Californian Common that I have been wanting to try for a while.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Sam.



There's lagers and there's lagers. Then there's faux lagers and Cal. Commons. Do you have temp control and do you like Aussie pub bitters or German style lagers? 

The first link should be pretty easy to knock up. The second one slightly more complicated (rice solids). If you have brew mate or Beer Smith you can scale pretty much any recipe you can find to suit this method, but bear in mind unless you include a sparge step you will lose a fair amount of efficiency or final volume on bigger beers (higher O.G.).

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1500

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=998

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=303


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I've done w SMaSH faux lager using this method.

I've altered my system since, but yeah fo sho it can be done.

I never did the Aussie lager, as i don't like them. 

It's the technique/system that's important, not the beer style. Get the technique down pat on a proven recipe/s, and use the practical side to cement the theory/jargon and how the elements of brewing come together.

Goomba


----------



## sgw86

emnpaul said:


> There's lagers and there's lagers. Then there's faux lagers and Cal. Commons. Do you have temp control and do you like Aussie pub bitters or German style lagers?
> 
> The first link should be pretty easy to knock up. The second one slightly more complicated (rice solids). If you have brew mate or Beer Smith you can scale pretty much any recipe you can find to suit this method, but bear in mind unless you include a sparge step you will lose a fair amount of efficiency or final volume on bigger beers (higher O.G.).
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1500
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=998
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=303



emnpaul,

Yep I have a temp control fridge. People are going to shudder though I do enjoy CD on tap at Pubs and really this is my main drink. I do however enjoy any Lagers really. My aim for my first recipe doing AG would be a simple Lager (such as a CD clone or Pub megaswill clone)...However really want to brew a Cali Common after I get some experience doing Nicks Method and brewing AG.

Thanks for the links! I like the first one and will give this one a shot as it seems simple enough.

As above I posted a recipe for another easy megaswill clone and have read through some posts on here of people trying to attempt. 

Would the below recipe be fine for a megaswill pub clone?

3.5kg Pilsner Malt (JW Pilsner Malt or Weyermann Pilsner Malt?)
400g Dextrose
Pride of Ringwood bittered to 20 IBU
S-23 @ 12C


----------



## Nick JD

Here's a couple of nice lagers. Both 17L - which is a good size for this method.

No Decoction Budvar Clone
Bohemian Pilsener

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 17.0
Total Grain (kg): 3.933
Total Hops (g): 60.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 8.2 (EBC): 16.2
Bitterness (IBU): 34.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.500 kg Bohemian Pilsner (89.5%)
0.300 kg Melanoidin (7.68%)
0.100 kg Carabohemian (2.82%)

Hop Bill
----------------
60.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3.5 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 64C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 10C with Wyeast 2000 - Budvar Lager

Green Bottle Lager
German Pilsner (Pils)

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 17.0
Total Grain (kg): 3.550
Total Hops (g): 35.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.72 %
Colour (SRM): 4.3 (EBC): 8.5
Bitterness (IBU): 26.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.500 kg Pilsner (98.59%)
0.050 kg Caramunich III (1.41%)

Hop Bill
----------------
15.0 g NZ Hallertau Aroma Pellet (7% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.9 g/L)
20.0 g NZ Hallertau Aroma Pellet (7% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 65C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 12C with Saflager S-189


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


----------



## emnpaul

Sambo7 said:


> 3.5kg Pilsner Malt (JW Pilsner Malt or Weyermann Pilsner Malt?)
> 400g Dextrose
> Pride of Ringwood bittered to 20 IBU
> S-23 @ 12C



Looks ok to me but the again I've never set out to brew an Aussie Mega Swill clone and thankfully haven't brewed one by accident either. If it were me I'd go for Nick's Boh Pils. :icon_drool2: 

Not much help I know.


----------



## paulmclaren11

slightly off topic... But i have noticed using this method my swiss voile is getting pulls and small holes in it...i assume from squeezing the bag hard. How long should the bag last? They are only small holes but with a grinder as a mill I am sure more grain will get through, is this okay?


----------



## flano

paulmclaren11 said:


> slightly off topic... But i have noticed using this method my swiss voile is getting pulls and small holes in it...i assume from squeezing the bag hard. How long should the bag last? They are only small holes but with a grinder as a mill I am sure more grain will get through, is this okay?



Yeah mine too.

I have had to sew it back together once.


Next time no bag . Just a big sheet gathered and tied in a knot will do the same job.


----------



## KingKong

This seems like a really good post. From my ignorance of all things home brew point of view, its really good to see these types of tutorials. I think they should be put some where for easy reference! 


IMHO. 



Kongy.


----------



## Bribie G

I agree, I think this thread should definitely be airlocked. = "stickied"


----------



## Rowy

I wouldn't have started AG without it. How do we go about getting it airlocked? So that those K&K brewers that come after us can share in it's wisdom!


----------



## Nick JD

I'd rather airlock a revised version. Sort of a combo of this, and the Thirty Buck thread. Happy to do it if it was to be stickied.


----------



## Rowy

Nick JD said:


> I'd rather airlock a revised version. Sort of a combo of this, and the Thirty Buck thread. Happy to do it if it was to be stickied.




Actually my blue. It was the Thirty Buck thread that got me started! But either way Nick a lot of blokes have joined the craft through these threads!


----------



## glenwal

A combined and stickied version would be awsome. These two threads are what go me into AG, and the method has served me well ever since.


----------



## KingKong

Hmmm who do you tap on the shoulder ?


Im miles away from trying this stuff, still happy pouring cans of glug. But I know in 6 months time when Im looking for this thread wanting to give it a crack it will be hard to find. 

There needs to be a tutorial thread, for step by step tutorials, similar to the enerjex yeast reculture tutorial. Its much easier to follow pictures !


IMHO.


Kongy


----------



## Bribie G

If you can be bothered to go back to the first post in the thread you'll get as many pictures as you can handle.


----------



## stm

paulmclaren11 said:


> slightly off topic... But i have noticed using this method my swiss voile is getting pulls and small holes in it...i assume from squeezing the bag hard. How long should the bag last? They are only small holes but with a grinder as a mill I am sure more grain will get through, is this okay?



Are you sure you have the polyester swiss voile? Or cotton? My home-sewn polyester voile bag is still perfect after about three years of regular use (and hard squeezing!).


----------



## paulmclaren11

Yes I am pretty sure it is polyester from Spotlight.... going to use the bag again this week I am sure it will be fine.


----------



## hellbent

So ok let me try and get this right once and for all...
I get 3.5 grain and put it through the blender ( 400g dextrose to be added later pre-boil) Strike up 12 ltrs of water to 70c for a mash at 65c , put bag in pot, then add crushed grain , wrap the pot up in blankets and god knows what and mash for 90 mins.
What is an acceptable heat loss over that time??? last one I done for 60mins finished at 60c, actually I have been wondering if I sat my pot on my heat pad and wrap around a towel to keep temps up would that work or would it get too hot?? 
Ok so after 90 mins I lift bag out, drain it, squeeze the crap out of it, then transfer it over to another pot with 6 ltrs @ 75+C in it, open the bag up and stir the hell out of it again and leave it sit in there for 10 mins or so then lift and let drain over the bucket (green of course) ... 
Ok then I combine all my wort into one pot, get my temps and readings, and stir in my 400g dextrose. Allowing for grain absorbtion I should have about 14-15l of wort @ 1.060 ready to boil.

Now from here on is where I'm ballsing things up, getting up to the 20ltrs.... Do I top the wort up with water to the 20ltr mark, bring to the boil, add my 27g Pride of Ringwood Hops and boil for 90 mins. this will prob leave me with about 15-16 ltrs after boil,so I then top up in pot or fermenter to bring it to 20 ltrs?
Or do I just boil the 14-15 ltr wort from the mash etc. and on boiling add 27g Pride of Ringwood Hops, boil in a nice easy boil for 90 mins and finish up with about a 10 ltr wort then top up in pot or fermenter to 20 ltrs? 
Which is the proper and the best way to do it to finish up with good efficiency? is there another way to do it? this seems to be where I get into trouble and it throws my numbers all over the shop and I finish with a beer that tastes like dead set sour crap.

sorry for the length of this post and thanks for reading but I just need to find out exactly what is the correct way to do it. I'm tossing a lot of brew out lately and it hurts like crazy, (although the vegie garden loves it) I would appreciate any help or advice available on the subject.


----------



## Nick JD

hellbent said:


> Do I top the wort up with water to the 20ltr mark, bring to the boil, add my 27g Pride of Ringwood Hops and boil for 90 mins.



Not sure how you are going to manage adding 20L to a 19L pot but I'd be interested to watch someone try.

If your beer is coming out like sour crap - it's your fermenting that's the problem. 

Follow the method at the start of this thread.


----------



## lukasfab

Hellbent,

sounds like you want to do MAXI BIAB

read this easy to understand guide
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=352


----------



## Nick JD

lukasfab said:


> sounds like you want to do MAXI BIAB



How does MaxiBIAB differ from this tutorial?


----------



## Nossil

hellbent said:


> So ok let me try and get this right once and for all...
> I get 3.5 grain and put it through the blender ( 400g dextrose to be added later pre-boil) Strike up 12 ltrs of water to 70c for a mash at 65c , put bag in pot, then add crushed grain , wrap the pot up in blankets and god knows what and mash for 90 mins.
> What is an acceptable heat loss over that time??? last one I done for 60mins finished at 60c, actually I have been wondering if I sat my pot on my heat pad and wrap around a towel to keep temps up would that work or would it get too hot??
> Ok so after 90 mins I lift bag out, drain it, squeeze the crap out of it, then transfer it over to another pot with 6 ltrs @ 75+C in it, open the bag up and stir the hell out of it again and leave it sit in there for 10 mins or so then lift and let drain over the bucket (green of course) ...
> Ok then I combine all my wort into one pot, get my temps and readings, and stir in my 400g dextrose. Allowing for grain absorbtion I should have about 14-15l of wort @ 1.060 ready to boil.
> 
> Now from here on is where I'm ballsing things up, getting up to the 20ltrs.... Do I top the wort up with water to the 20ltr mark, bring to the boil, add my 27g Pride of Ringwood Hops and boil for 90 mins. this will prob leave me with about 15-16 ltrs after boil,so I then top up in pot or fermenter to bring it to 20 ltrs?
> Or do I just boil the 14-15 ltr wort from the mash etc. and on boiling add 27g Pride of Ringwood Hops, boil in a nice easy boil for 90 mins and finish up with about a 10 ltr wort then top up in pot or fermenter to 20 ltrs?
> Which is the proper and the best way to do it to finish up with good efficiency? is there another way to do it? this seems to be where I get into trouble and it throws my numbers all over the shop and I finish with a beer that tastes like dead set sour crap.
> 
> sorry for the length of this post and thanks for reading but I just need to find out exactly what is the correct way to do it. I'm tossing a lot of brew out lately and it hurts like crazy, (although the vegie garden loves it) I would appreciate any help or advice available on the subject.



As suggested a page or so back, I would make sure when boiling that you keep topping up with Sparge water. Keep sparging with the grain bag whilst boiling. 

I was adding water to the boiling kettle (after the initial sparge) and getting terrible efficiency. I did a brew on the weekend where i kept topping up the kettle (nearly to the brim) with sparge water. Ended up getting 1.050 with around 17 or 18L or so (left a bit of hotbreak(?) in the pot). 

Then after my first attempt at no-chilling, i added to the fermenter and topped up with 3 Litres of tap water to get around 1.043ish. 

Doesn't the original tutorial call for only 60 mins boilding? I don't boil for 90 mins, 60 mins is fine for most recipes. 

I also don't add dextrose, plenty of 'sugaz' converted from the grains. 

If you 'stuff up' this method worst case scenario is weak beer... Not a big deal, it still tastes great! I'm currently drinking a mid strength Fat Yak @ approx 3.5% ABV. 

As Nick was eluding to above, if you are getting sour beer i'd be checking your sanitasation and cleaning.. Don't stir your brew with that same wooden spoon you were just making scrambled eggs with! 

Best advice I recieved was to keep adding sparge water to the kettle during the boil instead of plain tapwater -does wonders for efficiency. 



I also think this thread, or a revamped version by Nick should be stickied.. has gotten SO many people into all grain, it is a great help.


----------



## hellbent

Nick JD said:


> Not sure how you are going to manage adding 20L to a 19L pot but I'd be interested to watch someone try.
> 
> If your beer is coming out like sour crap - it's your fermenting that's the problem.
> 
> Follow the method at the start of this thread.



miracles do happen... Actually Nick it's BigW 19ltr which will take 20ltrs at a pinch,,,,sounds Irish dont it?
I will be keeping an eye on fermenting, I have a fridgemate set at 20c and varies from 20-22c and seems to be all ok, , maybe I could be bottling to early....10 days or so..... thanks for your advice NJD. Cheers


----------



## hellbent

Nossil said:


> As suggested a page or so back, I would make sure when boiling that you keep topping up with Sparge water. Keep sparging with the grain bag whilst boiling.
> 
> I was adding water to the boiling kettle (after the initial sparge) and getting terrible efficiency. I did a brew on the weekend where i kept topping up the kettle (nearly to the brim) with sparge water. Ended up getting 1.050 with around 17 or 18L or so (left a bit of hotbreak(?) in the pot).
> 
> Then after my first attempt at no-chilling, i added to the fermenter and topped up with 3 Litres of tap water to get around 1.043ish.
> 
> Doesn't the original tutorial call for only 60 mins boilding? I don't boil for 90 mins, 60 mins is fine for most recipes.
> 
> I also don't add dextrose, plenty of 'sugaz' converted from the grains.
> 
> If you 'stuff up' this method worst case scenario is weak beer... Not a big deal, it still tastes great! I'm currently drinking a mid strength Fat Yak @ approx 3.5% ABV.
> 
> As Nick was eluding to above, if you are getting sour beer i'd be checking your sanitasation and cleaning.. Don't stir your brew with that same wooden spoon you were just making scrambled eggs with!
> 
> Best advice I recieved was to keep adding sparge water to the kettle during the boil instead of plain tapwater -does wonders for efficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> I also think this thread, or a revamped version by Nick should be stickied.. has gotten SO many people into all grain, it is a great help.



Thanks mate for your reply, I like the idea of your progressive sparge water additions sounds quit logic I guess.... I think you will find that in the tutorial it was suggested the addition of dextrose could improve the end product but on reflection maybe I would be best just keeping to the tutorial. In the Tutorial Nick said "This mash is going for 90 minutes." so 90 mins it will be. although I wonder if I can hold my temperatures for that long.... I'm starting to think you may be right with the problem being in fermentation....I sterelise everything after the boil with Idophor including my long stirring spoon from LHBS. I use the no chill method and usually leave it in the cube overnight before bringing back up to 20c in morning then adding yeast ,maybe something there, dunno, will be extra aware of my sanitation this coming brew , You make a totally good suggestion re the sparge water and I'll try that.
BTW I agree that a revamped Version By NickJB should definitely be stickied. the guys a legend and his tutorials and inputs are always more than helpful.


----------



## lukasfab

Nick JD said:


> How does MaxiBIAB differ from this tutorial?




it doesn't, sorry thought this was the 9l job and he was trying to achieve full volume


----------



## soundawake

One question...

I am having a second go at this on friday, brewing a DrSmurto's GA. I'd like to cube the wort instead of just gladwrapping the pot to cool overnight, but obviously my 19L pot doesn't have a tap. I'd have to pour it out the top through a large funnel to get it into the cube. My worry is that this would possibly oxygenate the wort which would increase the chances of infection.. Or am I worrying over nothing?


----------



## glenwal

soundawake said:


> One question...
> 
> I am having a second go at this on friday, brewing a DrSmurto's GA. I'd like to cube the wort instead of just gladwrapping the pot to cool overnight, but obviously my 19L pot doesn't have a tap. I'd have to pour it out the top through a large funnel to get it into the cube. My worry is that this would possibly oxygenate the wort which would increase the chances of infection.. Or am I worrying over nothing?


one word...



siphon


----------



## keifer33

These are the bomb (no affiliation)

http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=348


----------



## soundawake

Glen W said:


> one word...
> 
> 
> 
> siphon



Six words....

Of course, how silly of me!


----------



## soundawake

keifer33 said:


> These are the bomb (no affiliation)
> 
> http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=348



Cheers man, I've emailed them to see if I can have one arrive by friday as that's my planned brew day.


----------



## Nick JD

Hot Side Aeration is what you'd be worried about if you were pouring into the cube with a funnel. 

Should you worry about HSA? Jury's out on that one - I saw a photo once of a brewery (might have been urquell) where there was a huge frothing pipe squirting hot wort into another vessel for cooling.

Some people worry about HSA, should the Stovetop brewer? Not sure.


----------



## Nossil

I bought a siphon from bunnings on the weekend, but didn't look anywhere as durable as the one linked above.

Put it in my hot wort and it melted... 


Lesson: Plastic siphon in 100+*c wort not a good idea. 


I think the tube might be silicon though, so I just took the end part off and used some tapwater to start the siphon. 




You could try pouring it in through a funnel, but instead of worrying about infections or HSA as Nick referred to above, I'd be worried about pouring boiling wort on the floor or yourself!


----------



## soundawake

Thanks for all your speedy replies fellas. Silicon tubing and a siphon valve have been ordered and paid for. I am raising my beer glass to you guys and the power of the internet.

POWA


----------



## stm

Soundawake - just cool the wort a bit in an ice bath, then you can use standard plastic hosing for your syphon. You do not want to try pouring the wort out of the pot into a funnel - it will end up on the floor, as Nossil suggests. HSA is the least of your worries! Fill the hose with tap water to get it started. (You are probably topping up the fermenter with tap water anyway, so no big deal.)

Hellbent - given your ongoing problems, maybe best to follow the KISS rule for the next few brews. Eg, just aim for say 15L into the fermenter. Mash 3.5kg as per usual in 12L for 60 min, drain bag with the dunk sparge in the second pot, drain this and pour into first pot. Top up to say 18L then boil for 60 min with hops. No dextrose, no continuous topping up. You'll end up with say 15L. Chill in ice bath (more quickly than no chill), then into fermenter and pitch yeast. Very simple and higher chance of success (but a smaller batch obviously). Once you get this right, start experimenting with the more complex processes to get bigger batches or higher gravity. (Your mash temp dropping to 60 over one hour is probably not a major concern - much of the conversion happens early in the mash. Maybe try a sleeping bag, or starting at 67, if it concerns you.)


----------



## jazzad1

I came across this thread about a week ago, and was looking to get a 40L urn to start all grain brewing, 2 x 19L pots from Big W are a lot cheaper and the process today went really well!

I used 4kg of Joe White Traditional Ale malt from G & G (I bought 25kg to experiment with, and got them to crush it)

mashed at 66 degrees, verified with a thermocouple from my PID controller, I also bought a floating thermometer from G & G and it is out by 6-7 degrees C. It read 77-78 when my thermocouple read 71, the thermocouple has been calibrated at freezing and boiling points of water at my elevation. The floating thermometer only cost $9 or so but it is still something to keep an eye on, it could screw up the mash I imagine.

I sparged with 6 litres, which left me with not a lot of room in the pot for the boil, but it all worked out ok. I found out my gas stove top only just has enough heat to get the 18 or so litres to boil, but it wasn't super vigorous, I'll be looking into buying an immersion heater for the next brew I think. 

After dilution to just under 20 litres I ended up with an OG of 1.044 so I'm really pleased with the results, all the squeezing paid off! About that, I might construct this for next time, making a relatively simple process into damn near effortless one!
BIAB Bag Press

I think I will siphon the wort straight into a no-chill cube next time, less opportunity for spills and less time taken up cooling the pot in the sink/bath.

Thanks to Nick JD for establishing this thread, it is excellent! A great introduction to all grain brewing and its processes.


----------



## hellbent

stm said:


> Soundawake - just cool the wort a bit in an ice bath, then you can use standard plastic hosing for your syphon. You do not want to try pouring the wort out of the pot into a funnel - it will end up on the floor, as Nossil suggests. HSA is the least of your worries! Fill the hose with tap water to get it started. (You are probably topping up the fermenter with tap water anyway, so no big deal.)
> 
> Hellbent - given your ongoing problems, maybe best to follow the KISS rule for the next few brews. Eg, just aim for say 15L into the fermenter. Mash 3.5kg as per usual in 12L for 60 min, drain bag with the dunk sparge in the second pot, drain this and pour into first pot. Top up to say 18L then boil for 60 min with hops. No dextrose, no continuous topping up. You'll end up with say 15L. Chill in ice bath (more quickly than no chill), then into fermenter and pitch yeast. Very simple and higher chance of success (but a smaller batch obviously). Once you get this right, start experimenting with the more complex processes to get bigger batches or higher gravity. (Your mash temp dropping to 60 over one hour is probably not a major concern - much of the conversion happens early in the mash. Maybe try a sleeping bag, or starting at 67, if it concerns you.)



Thanks for the advice mate and some how you may be right, maybe a straight forward 15ltr brew for a while isn't a bad idea. I am totally frustrated by my lack of success and have been spending hours reading up in AHB and any other forum I can find, I have nearly worn google out with queries and such, but I now feel as though it's within my reach at the moment, I reckon this is the one. A couple of the guys suggested maybe sanitary causes may be the problem so I will be having a big look at that. I'm sure once I get it right once then the floodgates will open. I don't like asking frivolous questions in the forum but I am a very slow learner and some times they must be asked, one thing I have learnt over the years is when in doubt ask. cheers


----------



## sgw86

Hi,

I attempted my first Stovetop AG on the weekend and think I did fairly well! I ended up brewing the below recipe

3.5kg Joe White Pilsner Malt
400g Dextrose

I took an SG reading before adding the yeast and got a reading of 1050.

One thing I did do though was I poured the entire contents of the pot into the fermenter...There was a fair bit of gunk (is this hot break?) that went in as well.....

Major concern is this will destroy the taste? I had about 14L in the pot that was added to the Fermenter and I topped the fermenter up to 20L with cold water.

Next time is it best to pour the contents of the pot through a colander to try and remove adding some of the hot break?

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Sam.


----------



## Nick JD

Line the colander with swiss voile that's been either boiled for a minute or two, or been soaked in starsan. 

Pour into the fermenter until you start to see break material, then pour through the colander. Don't wait too long for it to drain - 5 minutes max. 

The yoghurty stuff that first wants to tip into the fermenter is cold break - getting some of this in your brew doesn't affect the taste, and some would argue it should be in there. I've left it out and left it in and don't notice the difference.

The cottage cheesey stuff at the very bottom of the pot is hot break. This is essentially Barley Tofu. I've also left it in and left it out and I'm really not sure If I could tell the difference, but most would say to leave it out. The difference between cold and hot break is mostly fat, and you don't want fat in a beer, mainly because it might affect head retention and mouth feel.

Much of the "rules" about break material have been written by traditional brewing methods. Because cold break always ends up in the fermenter with people who rapidly cool wort, then it's "okay" because they have to live with it. Because traditional brewing methods can avoid hot break - they say "it's evil stuff!" 

With this method you can avoid both, but I'm the last one to say you should. Your beer will be fine.

EDIT: you put hops in it, right?


----------



## kierent

I've done this method 3 times now and the first time I totally forgot to leave out the break material. I was worried later when i remembered but the beer turned out great. The second time I did the same recipe and left out the break material but this also meant leaving some sugaz out (I didn't realise the difference between cold and hot break so left it all out) and ended up with a 3.8% pilsner. It tastes great, but a bit weak. 3rd brew was an ale and is still fermenting but so far looks good- 1.045 OG which I was happy with. 

Bottom line, I think I can live with a bit of break material if it doesn't make bad beer and increases efficiency figures. I'll try the collander method above though, thanks Nick!


----------



## Nick JD

kierent said:


> I'll try the collander method above though, thanks Nick!



Remember to make sure everything is super clean and sanitised though.


----------



## sgw86

Nick JD said:


> Line the colander with swiss voile that's been either boiled for a minute or two, or been soaked in starsan.
> 
> Pour into the fermenter until you start to see break material, then pour through the colander. Don't wait too long for it to drain - 5 minutes max.
> 
> The yoghurty stuff that first wants to tip into the fermenter is cold break - getting some of this in your brew doesn't affect the taste, and some would argue it should be in there. I've left it out and left it in and don't notice the difference.
> 
> The cottage cheesey stuff at the very bottom of the pot is hot break. This is essentially Barley Tofu. I've also left it in and left it out and I'm really not sure If I could tell the difference, but most would say to leave it out. The difference between cold and hot break is mostly fat, and you don't want fat in a beer, mainly because it might affect head retention and mouth feel.
> 
> Much of the "rules" about break material have been written by traditional brewing methods. Because cold break always ends up in the fermenter with people who rapidly cool wort, then it's "okay" because they have to live with it. Because traditional brewing methods can avoid hot break - they say "it's evil stuff!"
> 
> With this method you can avoid both, but I'm the last one to say you should. Your beer will be fine.
> 
> EDIT: you put hops in it, right?



Thanks Nick! Glad that I havn't potentially ruined this batch by adding the hot break. From what I understand of your comment above the hot break whether added to the Fermenter or not really doesn't make much difference?

Sorry forgot to add the Hops I used.

22g Pride of Ringwood @ 60mins.


----------



## Nick JD

Sambo7 said:


> From what I understand of your comment above the hot break whether added to the Fermenter or not really doesn't make much difference?



Try it with, and without - and make your choice.  Making beer is like making anything; some people obsess over the details, others eliminate the intricacies.


----------



## sgw86

Thanks Nick! Will try your swiss voile straining method for removing hot break.

I know you posted some Lager recipes in an earlier post however I am in the process of brewing my Extract brews in AG. I use to do a Czech Pilsner (from a post on this forum) when I brewed Extract and the recipe was

2KG Pilsen Dry Malt
400g Dextrose
120g CaraPils Malt

60G Saaz @ 60
20G Saaz @ 15

Does anybody have any suggestions for an AG version?

I was thinking perhaps the following recipe (feedback appreciated)

3.2KG Weyermann Pilsner Malt
500G Weyermann Munich Light Malt (Type 1)
200G Weyermann CaraPils Malt

Mashed @ 64 for 90mins

60G Saaz (3.7%) @ 60mins
20G Saaz (3.7%) @ 15mins

Boiled for 60mins


----------



## kierent

I use this for a 20L stovetop bohemian pilsner and it's great: 
4kg Weyermann Floor malted pilsner
200g Carahell
200g Carapils
Saaz to about 36 IBU in brewmate
Wyeast 2287 Czech Pils yeast fermented at 12C for a few weeks. 

First time I mashed at 66C for about 90min and it finished about 1.012 and tasted probably a bit too sweet. 
2nd time I did it I started at 62C for 45min then slowly (over about 15min) raised it to 68C and left for another 15min. This one was much drier, kinda like a hahn superdry feel to it (but better flavour).


----------



## sgw86

kierent said:


> I use this for a 20L stovetop bohemian pilsner and it's great:
> 4kg Weyermann Floor malted pilsner
> 200g Carahell
> 200g Carapils
> Saaz to about 36 IBU in brewmate
> Wyeast 2287 Czech Pils yeast fermented at 12C for a few weeks.
> 
> First time I mashed at 66C for about 90min and it finished about 1.012 and tasted probably a bit too sweet.
> 2nd time I did it I started at 62C for 45min then slowly (over about 15min) raised it to 68C and left for another 15min. This one was much drier, kinda like a hahn superdry feel to it (but better flavour).



Great! Thanks Kierent!

When raising the temp from 62 to 68 did you just apply heat and stir (so not to burn the bag and grain)?


----------



## Nick JD

Use Boh Pils grain, and 5+% Melanoidin. Alternatively, look into decoction mashing - it's easy on the stovetop because you have another element right next to you.


----------



## sgw86

Nick JD said:


> Use Boh Pils grain, and 5+% Melanoidin. Alternatively, look into decoction mashing - it's easy on the stovetop because you have another element right next to you.



Thanks Nick! Put the recipe through BrewMate. How does that look for a final one? Is the Mash temp/length fine? (strike temp of 70c).

I will also be using Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt and Weyermann Melanoidin. I have added the CaraPils malt for a bit of body but not really not sure if this should be kept?


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.087
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.044 (P): 11.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.32 %
Colour (SRM): 4.7 (EBC): 9.2
Bitterness (IBU): 35.4 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.734 kg Pilsner (91.36%)
0.202 kg Melanoidin (4.94%)
0.151 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (3.7%)

Hop Bill
----------------
60.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3 g/L)
20.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 62C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 10C with Saflager W-34/70


----------



## Nick JD

I'd ditch the carapils - never saw the point in that stuff, but that's just me. If you are having issues with head retention or body it's a bit of a band aid. 

62C is a bit too low. I'd go with 65C without the carapils. And upping the melanoidin to 300g wouldn't hurt - PU and Budvar are pretty dark. I even chuck in a bit of carabohemian too.


----------



## sgw86

Nick JD said:


> I'd ditch the carapils - never saw the point in that stuff, but that's just me. If you are having issues with head retention or body it's a bit of a band aid.
> 
> 62C is a bit too low. I'd go with 65C without the carapils. And upping the melanoidin to 300g wouldn't hurt - PU and Budvar are pretty dark. I even chuck in a bit of carabohemian too.



Excellent. Thanks Nick!

Have adjusted the recipe now and will attempt once my current batch finishes up. Without asking too many questions. My last question is the addition of Dextrose. If I wanted to increase the alcohol without sacrificing volume in the fermenter is the additon of Dex a good idea? Say max of 200g for this recipe?

Czech Pilsner


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.000
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.043 (P): 10.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.22 %
Colour (SRM): 5.3 (EBC): 10.5
Bitterness (IBU): 35.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.700 kg Pilsner (92.5%)
0.300 kg Melanoidin (7.5%)

Hop Bill
----------------
60.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3 g/L)
20.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 65C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 10C with Saflager W-34/70


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


----------



## Nick JD

I've found that with this brewing method it's quite possible to buffer it out with sugaz additions, but you can't get too carried away (unless the recipe calls for sugaz, then ya can - one of the reasons why this type of brewing suits Belgians so well). 

The trick is, if you're adding sugaz, to not be too far below 65C with your mash temp. Below 65, the enzyme that favours a thin beer (low FG) is encouraged ... so if you start bunging in da sugaz you can really wash the beer out. You're making Euro beer here not Australian!

Mashing always produces glucose and sucrose in small amounts - so all AG beer has a fair portion of white powdery sugaz in it, but if you mash at 70C and add a fair whack, the beer will end up not being all that different than one mashed at 63C. 

Sure, it's a little more complicated than this in reality, but when you're just starting out it's all far superior to K&K unless you want to add 1kg of sucrose, then you've officially overdone it. 

Personally, in styles that don't really have sugar in them I find it's better to just lose a liter or two off the batch size and concentrate on the flavour - especially something as bittersweet as a Boh Pils. It should have balls.


----------



## kierent

Nick JD said:


> Use Boh Pils grain, and 5+% Melanoidin. Alternatively, look into decoction mashing - it's easy on the stovetop because you have another element right next to you.




Might have to look into docoction mashing for future brews. But to raise the temp all I did was take off the lid, turn on the gas burner to about medium and stir vigorously until the temp reached what I wanted. The stirring was both to avoid burning and to make sure my thermometer was measuring accurately. Also, I haven't even heard of malanoidin, this just replaces the other malts? I'll do some googling. Always keen to learn more


----------



## sgw86

Keirent,

Found this description on Brew Dudes....

Melanoidin Malt is a type of malt produced by the Weyermann Malting Company. Melanoidins are desirable flavor compounds that are present in malts (especially German malts like Munich and Vienna). This specialty variety has been described as turbo Munich.

From what I have read, I formed this theory: Melanoidin Malt was developed to give homebrewers a way to get these big malty flavor compounds into beer without having to mash German malts. Historically to get melanoidins extracted into your wort, brewers would need to follow a decoction mash schedulewhich is time consuming. I think this malt is kilned in a special way to give homebrewers the ability to get the flavors without the hassle.


----------



## Nick JD

Sambo7 said:


> Keirent,
> 
> Found this description on Brew Dudes....
> 
> Melanoidin Malt is a type of malt produced by the Weyermann Malting Company. Melanoidins are desirable flavor compounds that are present in malts (especially German malts like Munich and Vienna). This specialty variety has been described as turbo Munich.
> 
> From what I have read, I formed this theory: Melanoidin Malt was developed to give homebrewers a way to get these big malty flavor compounds into beer without having to mash German malts. Historically to get melanoidins extracted into your wort, brewers would need to follow a decoction mash schedulewhich is time consuming. I think this malt is kilned in a special way to give homebrewers the ability to get the flavors without the hassle.



Yeah - melanoidin is basically decocted grain with its husks on. Melanoidins are the flavour compounds present in all beer, but much more present in decocted beers. A real decoction tastes different to using say 7% melanoidin, but it's a crap load easier than having to do three boils instead of doughing in and walking away.

Decoctions are fun, but not something you find yourself doing every weekend. If they made such a huge difference we'd do them every time. They make your Boh Pils darker and sweeter and more caramel and are a pain in the arse.


----------



## kierent

My reason for starting at 62 and then moving up towards 68 was just to get a drier finish to the beer by producing different types of sugaz. The first time I did this recipe it turned out quite sweet after a 90min @ 66C mash. I did a bit of reading and thought I'd try a different mash schedule and it worked well- the second attempt was drier. I did find it had less hop flavour than the first batch though, would this be to do with a different kind of sugaz in the boil? I can always dry hop in the keg for some more aroma though.


----------



## Nick JD

kierent said:


> My reason for starting at 62 and then moving up towards 68 was just to get a drier finish to the beer by producing different types of sugaz. The first time I did this recipe it turned out quite sweet after a 90min @ 66C mash. I did a bit of reading and thought I'd try a different mash schedule and it worked well- the second attempt was drier. I did find it had less hop flavour than the first batch though, would this be to do with a different kind of sugaz in the boil? I can always dry hop in the keg for some more aroma though.



It's difficult to dry hop with noble hops successfully, and I'm not sure if any commercial lagers are dry hopped. Watch you don't wreck a beer trying! Not many have been able to get flavour in their beer without other bad flavours - if there's a secret to noble dry hopping I'd love to hear it.

Stepping mashes up is always a good idea. 

To me, Boh Pils are very sweet beers. If they weren't hopped to 40 IBUs they'd be sickly sweet.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Nick JD said:


> Here's a way to sort out an extremely fine mash and dough balls.
> 
> Fill up only to about 8~9L with just hot tap water, put in your bag and then dump in your grain. You should end up (of course this depends on your hot tap water temp) with about 45-50C mash.
> 
> This is below the temperature that the starch will dough-up, so you just get a nice thick, slippery porridge.
> 
> Put 2L of water in the coffee kettle and boil it. This will give you about 52-55C when you add it (while stiriring). By the time the kettle has boiled again, you've done a few minute protein rest.
> 
> Add the next 2L and you'll get up to ~62C. You can leave it here if you want a dry beer, or you can add another 2L and get up to ~66C. You've probably hit the rim of the 19L pot about there.
> 
> This will both eliminate doughballs, give you a wicked efficiency and give you most of the benefits of an stepped infusion mash ... just gotta boil the kettle 3 or 4 times.
> 
> Alternatively, get your HBS to mill your grain or cough up a few hundred for a mill setup.
> 
> I infuse often (usually 45C, 52C, 60C, 64C) because it makes a better beer. Dry with head-retention.
> 
> Once you work out your gear you can put the lid on in these periods between adding the next kettle and do a full on stepped mash. Takes notes and refine. Google "Hochkurz mash".



Another question about this 'stepped' method of mashing... I did this method and it certainly did reduce the amount of dough balls. However I found that I lost a heap of temp at the end of the mash when compared to warming to strike temp and then adding the grains.

Is there a safe way to add the grains at below dough ball temps and then rise the temp by turning on the gas burner to heat the pot? I am scared of burning the grains and grain bag!

I could use a cooling rack on the bottom of the pot?


Cheers.


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> I found that I lost a heap of temp at the end of the mash when compared to warming to strike temp and then adding the grains.



Make sure you stir the crap out of it. There's no difference between 65C infused and 65C striked. Unless you have a heavy hotplate that's bumping your temps after turning it off.

Ramping up for stepping from below barlez gelatinisation temps (where it's a cloudy porridge, rather than a clear barley soup) has consequences for the impatient. Before it's a clear mash (sacc temps) there are things that just love to burn and scorch your pot. Ramping from ~58 to 78C, no worries ... ramping from 43-58 can be problematic. 

I've burnt the wort under the cakerack even when stirring the buggery out of it. If you are going to ramp below 58C, do it on a very low heat while stirring - never more than half on the element. 

A burnt mash is a binned mash.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Thanks Nick, I will try it again with the kettle boil method, stirring it a lot and insulating the pot better next time.

My efficiency was still pretty good when I did it and the Bright Ale Clone I made tastes unreal .... too easy to drink!


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> Thanks Nick, I will try it again with the kettle boil method, stirring it a lot and insulating the pot better next time.
> 
> My efficiency was still pretty good when I did it and the Bright Ale Clone I made tastes unreal .... too easy to drink!



While you're infusing, taste the mash. You'll be amazed how sweet it is even at 58C. 

Most of the reason for such long mashes is to get that last little bit. Most of it's done (especially with a fine crush) really quickly. If you're mashing at 70C you only need to give it 15 minutes - worrying about the mash temp falling a few degrees is only really a bit problem if you are mashing low, like 62C, where you really don't want the second half of the mash to fall to below 60C. Cool mashes take much longer (like 90 minutes).

Also, if you are kettle infusing - the pot doesn't need to be on the stove. You can sit it on a couple of towels in the bench. I wrap my mash in an old thinsulate sleeping bag.


----------



## kierent

Nick JD said:


> It's difficult to dry hop with noble hops successfully, and I'm not sure if any commercial lagers are dry hopped.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't realise this! I've only ever dry hopped with cascade and amarillo in my pale ales so I'm glad I read this before trying it in a pilsner with saaz. I guess the trick is to just bitter it correctly in the boil in the first place huh?


----------



## Nick JD

kierent said:


> I didn't realise this! I've only ever dry hopped with cascade and amarillo in my pale ales so I'm glad I read this before trying it in a pilsner with saaz. I guess the trick is to just bitter it correctly in the boil in the first place huh?



No reason why you can't hop with noble hops, just that it's difficult to get a desirable flavour - it's easy to end up with grass-clippings instead of florally spice. If you are going to try, go conservative. Also, dry hopping doesn't give much (most would argue, none) in the way of bitterness (although I think it does "bitter" to some small extent ... taste a hop tea to see). When I keg dry hop with Citra at 1g/L the beer seems a little bit more bitter, but I find high AA hops dry can also impart a kind of astringency to the beer which fades after a few days when the hops are removed and feels a little like bitterness on the tongue if the beer is already high in IBUs.


----------



## flano

saaz for me turned out grassy.
I read in some brewing mag that the head brewer from Little creatures suggested dry hopping with hops that start with "C". casade , citra etc
Galaxy is a no no..too potent. according to him.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Flano said:


> saaz for me turned out grassy.
> I read in some brewing mag that the head brewer from Little creatures suggested dry hopping with hops that start with "C". casade , citra etc
> Galaxy is a no no..too potent. according to him.



Pretty much all true.

I find that Galaxy gets a bit grassy, soapy and harsh as a dry hopper (especially in high quantities).

Nobles are a no-no.

Cascade - good, but beware in super high amounts, it still gets a little grassy - but I actually like the 'type' of grassiness I get from it.

My go to dry hop is Citra. It is nearly the perfect C hop in any situation. 

Centennial and Chinook aren't bad at the job either.


----------



## sgw86

Hopefully Nick or Flano can help me with my below question (may be a little over worried though).

I am almost up to Day 14 for my first BIAB using Nicks method and had a taste...must say very very nice! Again thanks to Nick for the tutorial and also Flano for his tips and advice.

Anyhoo I have noticed that there is now about 1.5+ inches of trub sitting at the bottom of the fermenter (a lot more than when I was doing Extract). Is there any concern for this? Am I right in saying that the only thing this will cause when I go to keg it is the first few pours will be cloudy?

My concern is some of the gunk (if transferred to the keg) may block up my dip tube.


----------



## Nick JD

Sambo7 said:


> Hopefully Nick or Flano can help me with my below question (may be a little over worried though).
> 
> I am almost up to Day 14 for my first BIAB using Nicks method and had a taste...must say very very nice! Again thanks to Nick for the tutorial and also Flano for his tips and advice.
> 
> Anyhoo I have noticed that there is now about 1.5+ inches of trub sitting at the bottom of the fermenter (a lot more than when I was doing Extract). Is there any concern for this? Am I right in saying that the only thing this will cause when I go to keg it is the first few pours will be cloudy?
> 
> My concern is some of the gunk (if transferred to the keg) may block up my dip tube.



That's a lot of trub, but isn't an issue.

Transfer it with a long hose into another fermenter or jerry and give it a day or two to settle out (do the gelatine thing too, and cold crash by all means ... Aussie lagers should be crystal clear) - then keg. 

Presentation is important if you intend to serve this to others. Also, the style really benefits from being clear in that the taste of yeast isn't to style. If you used Coopers yeast ignore all this!


----------



## sgw86

Nick,

I reckon there would be more trub at the bottom now which seems to have settled down. Would I have this much trub due to me pouring the entire contents of the mash stockpot into the fermenter? as opposed to leaving out the hot break etc.

I am just going to cold crash to 0C in the primary (which I do every time) and then keg 6-7 days later. Is this sufficient?

I used SafLager S-23 yeast.



Nick JD said:


> That's a lot of trub, but isn't an issue.
> 
> Transfer it with a long hose into another fermenter or jerry and give it a day or two to settle out (do the gelatine thing too, and cold crash by all means ... Aussie lagers should be crystal clear) - then keg.
> 
> Presentation is important if you intend to serve this to others. Also, the style really benefits from being clear in that the taste of yeast isn't to style. If you used Coopers yeast ignore all this!


----------



## Nick JD

If you poured in the hotbreak that'll explain it. What ever way you feel most comfortable doing it is the best way at this stage.


----------



## Gavo

As Nick as said pouring the whole kettle in will explain the extra trub. Going from kits to extract will get extra trub but probably less noticeable, Going from extract to all grain will definitely see an increase in trub. A whirlpool at the end and siphon from the side of the pot will see you with a lot less trub in the fermenter.


----------



## sgw86

Thanks Nick and Gavo! 

At the moment I will continue to add the hot break and then as I get more comfortable with the process can look to whirlpool and siphon into fermenter.

As I am starting to build up my recipes has anybody had a crack at a Mac Hop Rocker Pilsener? A bit of research has led me to the following recipe.


Hop Rocker


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.000
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.043 (P): 10.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.22 %
Colour (SRM): 4.4 (EBC): 8.6
Bitterness (IBU): 35.4 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.800 kg Pilsner (95%)
0.200 kg Caramalt (5%)

Hop Bill
----------------
15.0 g Nelson Sauvin Pellet (11.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
10.0 g Cascade Pellet (7.8% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (0.5 g/L)
5.0 g Nelson Sauvin Pellet (11.5% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Cascade Pellet (7.8% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Nelson Sauvin Pellet (11.5% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 66C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 10C with Saflager W-34/70


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


----------



## Nick JD

Looks good - I'd use a good euro pils malt and NZ cascade. And don't fear the rotten eggs that 34/70 produces early in the ferment. It clears.


----------



## sgw86

Nick JD said:


> Looks good - I'd use a good euro pils malt and NZ cascade. And don't fear the rotten eggs that 34/70 produces early in the ferment. It clears.



Weyermann malt? and I notice you can buy NZ Cascade in flowers but not pellets?


----------



## Phillo

Sambo7 said:


> Hopefully Nick or Flano can help me with my below question (may be a little over worried though).
> 
> I am almost up to Day 14 for my first BIAB using Nicks method and had a taste...must say very very nice! Again thanks to Nick for the tutorial and also Flano for his tips and advice.
> 
> Anyhoo I have noticed that there is now about 1.5+ inches of trub sitting at the bottom of the fermenter (a lot more than when I was doing Extract). Is there any concern for this? Am I right in saying that the only thing this will cause when I go to keg it is the first few pours will be cloudy?
> 
> My concern is some of the gunk (if transferred to the keg) may block up my dip tube.



Don't worry mate, I've only done ten or so BIABs in a stock pot and my latest IPA (got greedy and poured in the whole pot) has trub to about 1.5cm above the freakin' tap!

I'll be calculating my recipes for a few litres more in future and sacrificing the last bit. What I've got at the moment is nearly unmanageable. I'll probably rack to secondary tomorrow with a little dex so there's some CO2 in the headspace, then leave it the rest of the way.

Time for a tap with a pickup tube methinks!


----------



## Nick JD

Sambo7 said:


> Weyermann malt? and I notice you can buy NZ Cascade in flowers but not pellets?



Weyermann Pilsner is a supurb grain - worth the $15 extra a sack - I use it as a base malt for nearly everything. IMO NZ Cascade flowers are the world's best cascade. Very zingy. 

The beer will still be great with BB Pale and USA Cascade though - but if you're cloning a NZ beer, get NZ ingredients where possible. 

That said - I wonder what NZ malts are like?? Might start a thread.


----------



## sgw86

Interesting. I guess it's always advisable to buy ingredients from the region that the beer originates from.

With Flowers (why is it not possible to get NZ Cascade as pellets) do you use them as you would use pellets in a hop sock?



Nick JD said:


> Weyermann Pilsner is a supurb grain - worth the $15 extra a sack - I use it as a base malt for nearly everything. IMO NZ Cascade flowers are the world's best cascade. Very zingy.
> 
> The beer will still be great with BB Pale and USA Cascade though - but if you're cloning a NZ beer, get NZ ingredients where possible.
> 
> That said - I wonder what NZ malts are like?? Might start a thread.


----------



## Nick JD

Sambo7 said:


> Interesting. I guess it's always advisable to buy ingredients from the region that the beer originates from.
> 
> With Flowers (why is it not possible to get NZ Cascade as pellets) do you use them as you would use pellets in a hop sock?



http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2785

I use flowers and pellets in a hop sock - it must always be BIG, that's the only caveat. I've used the grain bag before as a hop sock.


----------



## flano

I always tip the lot into the fermenter...hot break and all. I use whirlfloc most of the time

I use the trub for recycled yeast.

If I ever do add anything to clear it up I use gelatine....but that is just another process where I could let an infection get in I think.

I used to stick the fermenter in the fridge for a but 2 weeks prior to kegging and that would clear it right up.
I have started dry hopping and was told not to let it sit on the trub with the dry hops for more than 5 days.
so now I wait until it is just about done fermenting , dry hop for approx 4 days , then keg and leave in the fridge ( purged of oxygen ) for a few weeks .
Comes out clear usually.

Joining a brewing club has helped heaps. Just slowly getting little tips here and there has improved my beer a lot. It is no harder harder to make just a few different things during the process.
Plus drinking heaps of great beer is a bonus.

also just on sambo's pils recipe there....which looks good to me....and what Nick says about NZ stuff
I cubed a Pils a few months ago during a brewing binge.
I used NZ moetuka saaz ...with just plain saaz ....prelim samples have been awesome.

but like every thing I read about brewing ....temp control is the key.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Just put Dr Smurto's Landlord down, his Light Amber which I am sipping now (mine isn't so light) is a ripping brew - I subbed Galaxy with Citra :icon_drool2: 

What is considered good efficiency with this method?

I am getting around 69% :beerbang: with the last 3 brews.

Should I expect more?


----------



## manticle

paulmclaren11 said:


> Just put Dr Smurto's Landlord down, his Light Amber which I am sipping now (mine isn't so light) is a ripping brew - I subbed Galaxy with Citra :icon_drool2:
> 
> What is considered good efficiency with this method?
> 
> I am getting around 69% :beerbang: with the last 3 brews.
> 
> Should I expect more?



Firstly there are different methods of calculating efficiencies (and different types of efficiency: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...ing_Efficiency)

Secondly, efficiency is mainly important for the following reasons:

Developing consistency in brewing methods, recipe development etc - which will also help lead to consistency of product if that's something you are interested in (not everyone is)

AND

Working out flaws in your processes and/or equipment.

I work on 70% and that gives me enough consistency between brews to know my recipe design is OK (I love designing recipes). I usually hit pretty close to what I expect and don't sweat it otherwise but some people love their numbers (and the relevant results) so if you're a numbers brewer then you should be able to push past 69% (again depending on definition/method of working out efficiency).

None of the above has anything to do specifically with Nick's method by the way.


----------



## Nick JD

As above. The only other thing I'd like to add is that you can go to extensive lengths to increase your efficiency, but it's a little like using those vouchers at the servo ... you fill up and present your voucher and you've saved two dollars twelve.

Hardly worth it. Considering you paid large at the Supermarket to get the damn voucher.

As long as you're not throwing grain (and barlez sugaz) down the drain, stabilising your "efficiency" will benefit your recipe development more than your wallet. End of the day we're talking a buck or two per batch.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Thanks fellas sounds like I am doing okay then.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Glen W said:


> 20L batches/4KG of grain on a stovetop is pushing the limits, so you have to work hard for it. For your 2nd or 3rd attempt, your results sound pretty good. I still do all my brewing in a big W pot, and hit about 85% efficiency for a 20L batch. The most important things (that i've found) are
> 
> - Fill your pot to the brim for the mash.
> 
> - A 90 min (or longer) boil. The additional boil time means more boil off, which means you can top up with more sparge water.
> 
> - A really good sparge. You'll want more than 4L of sparge water. I top up the pot up with sparge water pre-boil (whilst it's coming up to the boil), and then again during the boil (until about 15-20mins from the end). Keeping the pot topped up (lean how full you can go without boiling over) with sparge water during the boil means you keep adding more sugar and improving your efficiency. Then I only need a couple of liters of water to top up in the fermenter.



How much sparge water do you use Glen W? I have been filling my pot to the brim for the mash (it spilt over on the weekend when I put the lid on!), and have been sparging with about 6L and topping up the boil with this - I normally boil for a 70mins or so and get between 11 - 13 litres into the fermenter (I have been straining the break to get more sugarz). I am getting around 69-70% efficiency with this method.

I wonder how much 'harder' I would need to work with sparging using your method? I don't normally use 4kg of grain - anywhere between 3.5 and 3.9kg has been the most I have been brave enough to do...


----------



## sgw86

paulmclaren11 said:


> How much sparge water do you use Glen W? I have been filling my pot to the brim for the mash (it spilt over on the weekend when I put the lid on!), and have been sparging with about 6L and topping up the boil with this - I normally boil for a 70mins or so and get between 11 - 13 litres into the fermenter (I have been straining the break to get more sugarz). I am getting around 69-70% efficiency with this method.
> 
> I wonder how much 'harder' I would need to work with sparging using your method? I don't normally use 4kg of grain - anywhere between 3.5 and 3.9kg has been the most I have been brave enough to do...



Hi,

I am fairly new to this method and have now done 2 brews (both using 4KG of Grain). My method has been to mash in 12L for 90 mins. Sparge with 6L (which involves me stirring the grain for 4-5 minutes and then letting it sit for 10mins, then draining it for a further 10mins while also squeezing the bag to get as much wort out as I can).

I then just put all the sparge water back into the main pot (usually leaves less than an inch headspace) and boil for 60mins.

In two brews I have been able to get between 70-79% efficency.


----------



## paulmclaren11

What do I need to move to full volume BIAB's?

I assume at least a 40-50tlr pot and a ring burner?

Any suggestions?


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> What do I need to move to full volume BIAB's?



Mark's Homebrew sell Braumeisters.  

But I'd buy a 35-50L pot and an internal electric element.

And you'll need a hoist or something, unless you look like a condom filled with walnuts.

Couple hundred, maybe $250. 

You'll be able to make double batches in your big pot too, if you use the same methods in this thread!


----------



## paulmclaren11

Yes a Braumeister would be handy :beer: 

Thanks Nick


----------



## paulmclaren11

I guess the other option is to get another 19 ltr pot and split the batches?


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> I guess the other option is to get another 19 ltr pot and split the batches?



I prefer halving my batch size. Making 12L of IPA today. 

Each one is different; brewing to me is as much about variety and experimentation (trying all the ingredients) as cheap piss in large volumes ... but I can see the point of big batches.

I did this thread primarily to show the abilities of cheap gear if pushed. I havent done a 20L batch in over a year myself. Usually under 17L, some 12L.

Bottom line is if you want lots of beer, buy big gear. It's only a couple hundred bux,


----------



## jazzad1

I pushed the system a bit today, using 5kg of grain instead of 4, I made a Willamette SMASH using Joe White Traditional Ale malt, it all seemed to go well

this is my 4th brew with the 2 19L pots, the first one followed the aussie lager recipe in this thread, and the other 2 have been SMASH's one using Cascade hops, and the other using Northern Brewer

I still don't know how to calculate my efficiency, I may have read it somewhere, but I can't find it again

can anyone help me out? I can find how to calculate efficiency for a regular full volume BIAB but not for this higher gravity variety of brewing

thanks in advance!


----------



## Nick JD

How much grain you use and how many (X) liters of 1.0XX beer you have in your fermenter is "efficiency". 

There are different types of efficiency - but this is the real one.


----------



## zwagerman9

Ok. My first biab, but, 8 dollars bunnings bin. 19 litre big w stock pot. Super easy to sparge. Cheers. Rae


----------



## zwagerman9

zwagerman9 said:


> Ok. My first biab, but, 8 dollars bunnings bin. 19 litre big w stock pot. Super easy to sparge. Cheers. Rae





Holes drilled in the bottle ** sorry


----------



## paulmclaren11

Yes I use a bucket in a bucket BIAB press with holes in the bottom to 'squeeze' the bag for me. Saves burning my hands!!


----------



## Nick JD

Using non-food-grade utensils and vessels gives your beer a signature flavour all its own. That's why I insist on green buckets, as they are hoppy. The blue ones taste fruity and the red ones taste like salsa.

Nah - but seriously, I use a 15L SS pot for that sorta thing. If ya balls start to shrink or you start to ejaculate dust - eliminate the plastics.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Nick JD said:


> If ya balls start to shrink or you start to ejaculate dust - eliminate the plastics.



Gold!!!!


----------



## zwagerman9

Nick JD said:


> Using non-food-grade utensils and vessels gives your beer a signature flavour all its own. That's why I insist on green buckets, as they are hoppy. The blue ones taste fruity and the red ones taste like salsa.
> 
> Nah - but seriously, I use a 15L SS pot for that sorta thing. If ya balls start to shrink or you start to ejaculate dust - eliminate the plastics.



And if it was already a pre existing condition....  haha


----------



## zwagerman9

Taking some advice, NickJD. By eliminating non food grade plastic at a relatively cheap cost I thought.
I will buy another 19litre stainless steel pot, and drill holes in the bottom to make it more food safe. Use it the same as the bucket idea to sparge the grain.
But wont kill me in the long run.

Anyone done this?

Cheers

Rae


----------



## Nick JD

zwagerman9 said:


> Taking some advice, NickJD. By eliminating non food grade plastic at a relatively cheap cost I thought.
> I will buy another 19litre stainless steel pot, and drill holes in the bottom to make it more food safe. Use it the same as the bucket idea to sparge the grain.
> But wont kill me in the long run.
> 
> Anyone done this?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rae



Or, get a 15L pot, take the handles off, cut some of the bottom out and line it with a screen, and use it as a "malt pipe" - watch a youtube video of how a braumeister works.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=954340


----------



## Blitzer

Stupid question around the Swiss Voille, why do I need some lady to sew it into a bag? 

When it the pot I just drape the edges of the side & when I need to pick it up just bunch it at the top and can put an elastic band on or something if needed?

If there is a specific reason to get a bag made I can, but will avoid if unnecessary.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

You're right, carry on.

Never sewed it up when I BIABed. 

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD




----------



## indorat

I have no sewing on my bag and just drape it. I also use pegs to hold it when mashing, then remove them once the lid is on. Lost a peg in the mash once, it was a pain in the bum to retrieve lol.


----------



## mrTbeer

The method works and it's dead easy, thanks Nick. (I altered the recipe a bit more American than Australian adding some wheat, crystal grain and Galena) BUT it cost me a small fortune. Why? I used the blender to grind grain and the glass jug smashed.Why do I start brewing after drinking??

I used unsewn voile and was able to hang 'bag' from an overhead cupboard handle. As an engineer I know it wasn't rated but it worked.


----------



## super_simian

mrTbeer said:


> I used unsewn voile and was able to hang 'bag' from an overhead cupboard handle.


I love hangin' bag....


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

> name='mrTbeer' date='Sep 19 2012, 10:45 PM' post='955473'BUT it cost me a small fortune. Why?



Becuase your HB store is over priced. shop at the G&G or craftbrewer and order to few beers worth at a time. Once your committed to AG, jump in the car and buy two or bags of grain from CB, then you will see the prices drop significantly!!

Good to hear it went well, happy brewing!!


----------



## mrTbeer

No the grain was cheap. Replacing the blender cost me another $35 bucks.

Hanging bag since 2011.


----------



## Nick JD

A glass blender? Whoa! That's some seriously thick glass. 

I've had stones in grain before, but somewhere in the grain production line the stuff must be sieved because the stones are never much bigger than the biggest barleez seed.

My Sunbeam eats stones for breakfast. 

Glad to hear you're making beer!


----------



## wbosher

Thanks Nick, awesome tutorial! Just spent the best part of my _workday_ reading all 27 pages. Along the way I've made up a little spreadsheet with some calculations like a mash/strike temperature calculator, dilution calc etc...

I don't know how useful this will really be, but seemed like a good idea at the time.

One question...somewhere in the last 27 pages the was a guide to convert SG readings at different temperatures. For example a reading of 10xx at 63C is converted to 10xx at 20C. I really don't want to go back through 27 pages to find it, so if someone could point me in the right direction that would be appreciated.

I know I could Google it, but after rerading 27 pages, my eyeballs are about to fall out.


----------



## Nossil

Download Brewmate. 
It has a calculator (along with a few others) that tells you what your OG is based on the current temperature and reading. 

It is free and very easy to use.


----------



## Nick JD

Nossil said:


> Download Brewmate.
> It has a calculator (along with a few others) that tells you what your OG is based on the current temperature and reading.
> 
> It is free and very easy to use.



http://www.brewmate.net/downloads


----------



## wbosher

Just downloaded it, guess I can ditch my spreadsheet. :lol: 

Awesome, thanks Nick.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

I brewed this recently with JW Trade ale malt the same POR hops and added 400g Dextrose, I don't have my recorded gravities and numbers (can get these when at home), but my efficiency according to brewmate was 77%, it produced 19L (I thought it was 20L but it only filled the keg no leftovers (is this probably losses to trub/break etc?)). The final gravity thought I remember was 1.008. I also used US-05 yeast and brewed in a fridge at 16-18C and had it in there for 3 weeks.

EDIT: Was stovetop (19L pot) BIAB, lotsa squeezing of the bag and a "dunk sparge" as per this tutorial.

Anyway it was naturally carbed in the keg and I've started drinking it since last week, it is quite strong (6%) and has an alcoholic almost vodka taste to it, this is attributed to the Dextrose from what i've read is this true? It is almost like a sweet toffee apple candy flavour through the brew as well, although I'm not sure what this component would be I was expecting a much "drier" and bitter beer being similar to a carlton, or because I used an ale yeast is that why I have a completely different flavour profile?


----------



## jotaigna

Something doesn't sound quite right about the beer you describe. I would be investigating an infection, or oxydation.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yea I didn't think it was how it should have tasted, everything looks fine. I "chilled" by sealing the pot with glad wrap and putting lid on then into laundry tub of water, once it was at 22C I poured entire pot contents into sterile/sanitized fermenter so oxidation couldn't be it (thought that was cardboard flavour anyway?), do you have any thoughts on what kind of infection it could be?

it's definitely not undrinkable though, in fact my Dad and brother in law both loved the beer... I think I just had an expectation in my mind which is has not met so yea hoping some of the experienced on here can put it into perspective for me!


----------



## Tahoose

Just read the whole thread and while my head is ready to explode from information overload I have picked up so much from this. 

The only problem I'm having is that I can't see any photos in the original post?


----------



## slcmorro

You won't either. The user has been banned, and therefore removed his photos from it's original hosted account.

What do you need to know? Plenty of people on here can help ya!


----------



## Tahoose

Thanks slcmorrow, I think I have a grasp of most of it, it's just that a picture speaks a thousand words ya know...

won't be having a crack at this just yet for a couple of reasons.... but it has got me thinking


----------



## einnebcj

Dare I ask why he was banned....or don't we talk about it. Without the back story......seems a shame. It was this thread that got me into AG and I'm sure I'm one of many....


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/73150-why-has-nick-jd-got-the-arse/page-3?hl=%2Bnickjd+%2Bbanned#entry1051210

Theres even a thread for that!


----------



## laxation

Don't mind me, just reviving a long dead thread ... I had a read through this and will give it a go on the weekend.

While going through it, I was copying the bits I thought were interesting and came up with this summary. Thought be good to post it in case anyone else is interested, but also be keen to know if people have come up with new ideas/innovations in the last 4 years.


*BIAB*

1. 12L of hot water, warm to 70 degrees.

2. 6L of hot water in second pot.

3. Add grains (4 - 4.5kg)

4. Add water from second pot until mash pot is at the brim.

5. Insulate.

6. Start timer from when insulated – 90 minutes.

7. After 90 min mash, lift up grain bag and drain for as long as you can hold it.

8. 6L of water to 75 degrees in separate pot.

9. Move grain bag to 6L pot, open it up and let it sit there for a few minutes, stirring.

10. Take out bag and squeeze it, pour sparge water into boil pot.

11. Add more water to sparge pot for topping up the boil if needed. Top up small amounts (500ml)

12. Hops into hop bag (loose packed) and put in when pot is boiling.

13. 25% more hops because boiling in stronger OG?

14. Whirlfloc tab with 10min left in boil.

15. Measure Gravity and top up with water to desired OG.



*To figure the water amount*

For your first go, fill the 19L pot up to half full - 9.5L (write all these volumes and weights down so you'll have it perfect next time) and bring that water up to strike temperature.

In another pot on another element, bring maybe 4-6L up to the same strike temperature.

Bang your grain in the 19L pot and stir - break up the lumps so none of the grain is floating.

Add as much hot water from your smaller pot as you need to bring it up to a safe level, noting how much water in total you've added with your 4kg of grain.

Next time round you'll be able to get it exactly right - with as little freeboard in the pot as you dare. You only need that extra pot of strike water to get your volume correct the first time. Measure the water accurately for your second batch, and scratch a mark on the outside of the pot and you can forget about it.


----------



## RdeVjun

Pretty much captures the essence. The second pot should be 12L or more, 15 is fine but these days I use a second 19L stockpot from the collection.
FWIW here's another quite similar guide penned about the same time as Nick's: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?t=352


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Where are you located? I have a spare 19L big W pot, from converting to using an urn.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

And search 2 pot stovetop AG with lauter. I put videos on how I adapted this system to what I had.


----------



## laxation

Thanks for the offer but my stove wouldn't fit two big pots, it's just a 60cm one. I've got a 10l pot I'll use for the sparge, so hopefully that does the trick


----------



## laxation

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/2-pot-stovetop-ag-with-lauter.60922/

Looks good. Does the bucket lauter make it more efficient?
I'vegot a few buckets but left them at a mates house, might give that a go if the one pot doesn't work tomorrow


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

laxation said:


> https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/2-pot-stovetop-ag-with-lauter.60922/
> 
> Looks good. Does the bucket lauter make it more efficient?
> I'vegot a few buckets but left them at a mates house, might give that a go if the one pot doesn't work tomorrow


I found I got the best efficiency with the lauter.

I have a portable electric stovetop you can have. Not pretty but does the job. It'll do the 2nd pot.


----------



## laxation

Just made 21l of dr Smurtos at 5%! (if my calculations were ok). It was 18l of 1.060 then watered down to fit in the cubes. 80 something% efficiency?? Seems super high so dunno if I messed up somewhere
Very happy with that for a first go!

Really looking forward to fermenting this one

Thanks for offering (again!) But my stove was able to boil the pot, so no need for a second pot at the moment. Thank you though I appreciate the offer


----------



## RdeVjun

Glad to hear that, happy days! 

Just on the watering down part, at what point did you do that and with what sort of water? I hope both the wort and the water that went into the cubes was boiling? No biggie if the water was not boiling, but probably should be pitched immediately if that was the case. FWIW, I water down my MaxiBIABs in the fermenter.


----------



## laxation

Just used tap water... And some leftover sparge water :/ I figured I use tap water to ferment, what's the difference?

I'll be fermenting it within a week, reckon that'll be ok?

I did it now instead of in the fermenter to get rid of the head space In the cube


----------



## RdeVjun

With plain tap water you might get away with it, OTOH might not, I wouldn't risk it. Sparge liquor is probably loaded with largely undesirable bugs, if that's not been boiled then you're really asking for infection trouble.
Put simply, No Chill works by 'sterilising' the cube contents, its not unlike like UHT milk, whereas if you just pasteurise it then shelf life is very limited, bound to grow bugs after a week, even a few days. I'd be pitching that cube ASAP but re- boiling it would be better.
Don't fear headspace in the No Chill cube, its harmless.


----------



## laxation

I'd boiled the sparge water but it had cooled.. If I boiled it all tomorrow night reckon that'd be ok? How long would I need to boil it for


----------



## laxation

Just thinking though won't boiling it be bad for the hops?


----------



## RdeVjun

Ah, that's better, if the sparge was reasonably sanitary from being boiled already then you may be able to wing it. If you wished to reboil, it wouldn't need long at all, simply to re- cube with near- boiling wort and seal it up.

Reboiling would alter the late hops character, perhaps add some bitterness and detract from the flavour and aroma character, but seeing as it is No Chill already then there would probably be negligible impact.

FWIW, brewing is often quite forgiving and you might get away with doing nothing at all, if its clean then the gods smiled upon you, if not then chalk it up to experience, no biggie.


----------



## laxation

Cheers  I figured last night I'll borrow another fermenter and just get it going tonight. Im pretty excited to try it so that works anyway...


----------



## laxation

RdeVjun said:


> FWIW, brewing is often quite forgiving and you might get away with doing nothing at all, if its clean then the gods smiled upon you, if not then chalk it up to experience, no biggie.


Gods were not forgiving... it's shit lol.

On the plus side, now I have an extra keg to fill with the beers that are fermenting!


----------



## Lachlan Helbig

Wow... Moved from partial mashes but was inspired by your post Nick. This beer was beautiful, the only modification I made was 200g of Carapils which made for a magnificent, creamy white head. It tastes like megaswill except well... It tastes. Really easy drinker and with gelatin and polyclar, it is absolutely crystal clear. When this beer gets my mates into brewing, I'll be putting them straight onto this. Cheers!


----------

