# Berliner weisse- anyone want some lacto/yeast slurry? (Syd)



## mikk (1/10/14)

Making a Berliner Weisse at the moment, and considering the effort that went into getting & growing the lacto/yeast starters, I thought others that were thinking of brewing their own within the next few weeks might like to grab some slurry to get their own off to the best possible start.

The slurry consists of Wyeast 5223-PC l.Brevis, White Labs WLP677 l.delbrueckii & White Labs WLP001. Wyeast won't be releasing another batch of 5223 for another 9 months or so, I believe.

No dramas if no takers, but due to the reasonably different nature of the beer thought it might encourage someone that might not otherwise make this style of beer... 

For my own beer, the 677 had a .5L to 1L starter, & the 5223 had a 1L starter. Both were pitched together at 19C. Vigorous ferment within 20 hrs. 001 pitched at 36hrs, when pH was at 4 & gravity was 1.020 (from 1.033). Currently smells & tastes awesome- light doughy breadiness with some background sharpness from the sour.

Happy to put some slurry in some White Labs vials if anyone wants some in a week or 2 when I rack to secondary.

Free, pickup only from Marrickville.

For anyone that might make this style in future, get the Wyeast lacto's over White Labs, if you can. The Wyeast cell counts are considerably higher, & in particular the Brevis seems like an animal. It ferments like a yeast- big krausen and all.


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## mje1980 (1/10/14)

Which mofo just ordered the last wyeast lacto?. I was putting the order through then it came up with no stock. Went back to the page and sure enough it was gone. Bugger!


Tell me about brevis mate, how to use, ferm temps etc.


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## vykuza (1/10/14)

This is the description for the White Labs Brevis, which is available all year:



> Lactobacillus brevis is a rod-shaped bacteria used for souring beers. Typically produces more lactic acid than Lactobacillus delbrueckii. Great addition to any sour program!


It's also more tolerant of hops than delbrueckii and heterofermative, which means it will create both lactic acid and alcohol (delbrueckii won't make alcohol).

if you're going to pitch it in your fermenter, then I would stick around 25c, then lower for the German ale yeast ferment.


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## mje1980 (1/10/14)

So i an get away with a lower temp than the 5335? That's how I ended up with a cube full if vomit I think, 48hrs of just lacto at 25c


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## vykuza (1/10/14)

You sure can, I would use 25 as a high end recommendation for quicker work. Keep as low as 20, but it will work slower. Keep monitoring I guess.


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## mje1980 (1/10/14)

Ok cheers mate, I'll look into getting some brevis. Sorry to the op for the hijack


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## mikk (1/10/14)

Nothing wrong with lacto only for 2 days at 25c, though if you just threw a vial of delbruckii in without a huge starter then vomit smells from an infection might be likely. If your bitterness was too high, there's the possibility that the lacto can start fermenting, then crap out before getting very far, then infection setting in.

Most texts suggest the safest method to be pitching the lacto and yeast at the same time, at 19-22c.

Incidently, White Labs delbruckii is given as heterofermentative in American Sour Beers, though i have not seen real life evidence of this. Delbrueckii is always the one recommended for a traditional BW, though the same people always acknowledge that the wyeast and white labs version of this is pretty tame and unlikely to give a high level of sourness, especially not for the first generation.

The ale yeast used can also affect the final pH level/sourness.


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## mje1980 (1/10/14)

Thanks for the info mate. I just pitched a wyeast smack pack and left it for a few days. Do you recommend a big starter, even for a low gravity weisse?.


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## mikk (1/10/14)

With the souring method you chose to use, a starter would have been strongly advisable.

Wyeast lacto packs only have about 15 billion cells, at most, when fresh. White Labs lacto vials have a meager 2.5 billion cells. Neither is really adequate to commence primary fermentation with.

I assume you thought the lacto had a cell count similar to yeast, at approx 90 billion cells?


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## mikk (1/10/14)

Incidently, l.brevis starters grow better with some oxy, whilst oxy for delbrueckii makes no difference. Apparently.


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## Goldenchild (1/10/14)

Hey mikk i would definitely be interested in taking a jar of your slurry and getting this years berliner down ready for summer. Based in Newtown so pick up should not be a problem. 
Cheers


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## mje1980 (2/10/14)

Mikk, I just assumed by itself it would be enough to sour it up after a few days head start. Lesson learnt there, I'll never forget the smell haha, Parmesan vomit.


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## motch02 (2/10/14)

I've been told the white labs strain is actually capable of producing alcohol also, also read that it may contain 10% yeast.. I wish white labs would divulge more about what their yeast and bacteria do


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## mikk (2/10/14)

My delbrueckii starters gravity did not change, though the pH dropped. I believe the 10% yeast story was some misinformation accidently started a while back- i think there might be some good info regarding this on the Mad Fermentationist site.

Youre right about there being a huge lack of info from the manufacturers though. It wouldnt be hard to put a paragraph or 2 on their webpage regarding optimum condition, cell count, expected results etc etc...


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## motch02 (2/10/14)

Yeah here: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/06/100-lactobacillus-berliner-weisse.html

He mentions it (WLP 677) produces both alcohol and C02, I just had a 1.036 wort go down to 1.06 in 2 days.. Wasn't expecting to have it go that fast without a starter, though I kept the temp around 30


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## mikk (2/10/14)

Thats good to know, and surprising it fermented so quickly, especially with no starter. How was the taste and aroma during and after fermentation? And what was the start and finish pH?


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## mikk (2/10/14)

Also, goldenchild pm me your number and i'll call or message you when it's ready.


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## motch02 (2/10/14)

I used lactic acid and took it down to 4.3, using Bru 'n' Water. I really need to invest in a Ph Meter.. Might make that my next buy

it's only three weeks in, I've bottled it as I'm just making it a quicky for an Oktoberfest party I'm having.. Tried one the other night, slight malty/doughy taste, not all that sour but very 'sprtizy' was very easy to put down the 330ml bottle I had

Aroma during fermentation was just straight c02, I didn't get any weird smells.. The airlock was going crazy. I also put glad wrap over the wort as I'd seen it suggested in a few places


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## mje1980 (2/10/14)

With a lacto starter is it the same as a standard starter?.


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## vykuza (3/10/14)

Depends on the strain. brevis will work like a normal starter gravity drop and co2 - homofermative strains won't make any alcohol, so the gravity won't drop much, as I believe lactic acid is quite dense.

I've seen/heard about people making lactic starters with apple juice, but I don't know any pros/cons and I haven't tried it personally.


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## mje1980 (3/10/14)

Thanks nick, I've ordered the wyeast 5335, which I believe does not produce alcohol. I'll make a starter anyway I think. 

I cubed the wort as normal, I'll just have to get another funky fermentor. So I now have one normal one, 4 funky ones haha. Now I just need to make sure my clean one doesn't infect my funky ones with icky ale yeast haha


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## Yeastfridge (3/10/14)

Would love some when it'd ready if there'll still be some left, I'm in Enmore so pickup is easy.


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## mikk (8/10/14)

Slurry is ready, one extra still available.
pH fell from 5 to 3.5, gravity from 1033 to 1003, in a very fast and healthy fermentation. Suspect both will drop further with a bit more time. 
Smells and tastes great already, with a pronounced acidity/sourness. Yum.


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