# New to home brewing and a little confused



## TonyF (12/2/16)

Hi folks!

Finally decided to go purchase a Morgan's home brew kit from the LHBS during the week and very excited to be popping my cherry this weekend!

When at the LHBS, I decided to pick up some sanitiser for cleaning out the gear/bottles etc and an extra can (Morgan's Golden Sheaf Wheat) for a second batch. The guy suggested that using a no-rinse sanitiser could, although unlikely, affect the final taste of the beer so decided to go with a rinse sanitiser. 

After doing a fair bit of reading and viewing of videos I'm now concerned that what I've been sold is actually a "cleaner" and not a sanitiser (even though the product has the word "Steri" in and it's even sold on their website as a STERILISER). The product says that it contains trisodium phosphate which seems to only be a SANITISER if it is CTSP (chlorinated trisodium phosphate). I do have the no-rinse sanitiser from the kit, though I was going to user that for spraying the hydrometer and tap each time after testing the SG.

Some questions I have:
1) Would any of you wise folks know if this TSP is good for sanitising or is it simply a cleaner and I need to get some more sanitiser?
2) Will I be fine if I sanitise my bottles at the same time leave them on the drying tree, capping them after they dry and then using them when bottling time comes?
3) I have a pot in which I can boil the 2L required to mix up the liquid malt extract and another 7L pot (usually used for spag bog sauce) in which I can boil water the night before and leave to cool to add to the fermenter the next day. Does anybody know if the water in the southern suburbs of Perth is ok to add directly to the fementer (I live around the Canning Vale area)? To me it does taste quite chlorinated so I'm guessing no.
4) How do people in Perth go with making beer at this time of year? I've been holding off with the spate of 40+C degree days we've been having. I read throwing a wet towel around the fermenter is enough to keep the fermenting temperature down. Does this sound ok?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice given!

Cheers,
Tony


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## mr_wibble (12/2/16)

I am fairly sure the "pink stuff" - chlorinated trisodium-phosphate needs to be well rinsed off.
So as long as what you rise it off with is sanitised (say boiling water), then that should be OK.
BTW: Things don't need to be sterile, just sanitised.

You can wash and rise your bottles, and then sanitise them by heating them in an oven for a while - 170C for an hour

A lot of people here, me included, use "StarSan" as a no-rinse sanitiser. It's easy and convenient. Although some people dislike it too.

(I can't answer Perth water questions)

Temperature control is one of the critical aspects of fermentation.
Ideally you do not want to go over 20C, and it's best kept 18-19C.

Many home brewers use a fridge with a secondary temperature controller built in. Or wait for the right time of year.
40C is a big ask of a wet t-shirt, but one method is to sit your fermenter in water (like 1/2 a plastic barrel, bathtub, laundry sink, etc.) and put a cloth over it (e.g.: a t-shirt) so the water wicks up and evaporates, providing cooling. I have also frozen 2 litre bottles of water, and put these in with the fermenter to maintain lower temperatures. But you need a few spare to rotate them. (note: in the water with the fermenter, not inside the fermenter with the wort).

Of course if you have an air-conditioned or naturally cool house, you're mostly there already.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

Thanks for all that information Mr Wibble, very much appreciated.

I had read that the "pink stuff" had to be rinsed off... though the extra "sanitiser" I was sold isn't pink (they sell that too) but white and says it contains TSP not CTSP which is where my concern is that it's simply a cleaner and not a sanitiser as it's not chlorinated (yet they market it as a "steriliser"?) 

It does seem that this Star-San sure is really popular amongst the home brew crowd. In fact it seems that just about everybody uses some form of no-rinse sanitiser so I might look at getting some Star-San for my next batch (I have enough no-rinse sanitiser that comes with the Morgan's kit to get me by this time around).

With regard tot he bottles I should of been a bit clearer about them being the PET bottles that come in the home brew kit. I was thinking of sanitising them with everything else before doing the fermentation and wondered will they be ok for the next 5 days or so before I bottle?

I think I might have to go with the a tub of water and bottles of ice as even though I waited for the temps to drop it appears we're going to be getting some more 38C days next week and the best I can get the evap air cooler to cool the house down to is about 22.

Thanks once again for all the information and suggestions!

Cheers,
Tony


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## Spookism (12/2/16)

If you get into your brewing, waiting for Perth weather to match up for ideal temperatures would be frustrating as.

If you can get a decent 2nd hand fridge for $100- and spend about $30- on a temp controller you'll be able to make beer all year round.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

Have just been looking into that Spookism .... only problem is... I want to start NOW! not when I find a fridge (I don't even know if i can wait the 15-20 days the instructions indicate the process will take)   

Do most people go for a bar fridge or full sized?


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## wobbly (12/2/16)

In Canning Vale you will most likely be on the Thompson's Lake water distribution network. If you get in touch with [email protected] you will be able to get details of your water 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

Awesome, thanks for that Wobbly! Technically I'm in Thornlie, but we're actually closer to Canning Vale than the major part of Thornlie (I could probably pee into Canning Vale from where I am  ). I'll contact Jeff Webber and see what he can tell me  Thanks again!


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## wobbly (12/2/16)

TonyF

If you are on the above supply as I am them you will find that your water has a pH of around 8.0 and will be high in Chloride at around 165ppm (could be 220ppm) and high in Sodium at about 105ppm (could be 140ppm) 

None of this should impact on you doing a Kit beer but just keep in the back of your mind that when the Kit manufacturer vacuum reduce the Kit they removed "pure water" and you will now be adding back water that may be higher in brewing salts than they were targeting.

Don't concern yourself with this on for your first few brews just something to read up on and study/understand if when you decide to progress further

Cheers

Wobbly


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## superstock (12/2/16)

If your are worried about your water, go to office works and buy their 12L bottled water and get a free PET fermenter, $10 for 12L here in Brisbane. Or put your tap water into a clean container and let it stand overnight, that will get rid of most of the chlorine.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

Thanks again Wobbly, certainly very interesting and something I'll have to look further into. I never really thought about the fact that the water that was removed isn't the same as what we are replacing it with. I might just do what superstock has suggested and put some water in a clean container overnight. 

I guess my bigger problem will be temperature control with the hotter days coming up. Was initially planning on throwing it in the workshop but I'd say that won't work too well with the 3 days of 38 we have forecasted for next week. Dunno whether to just go with what I have for this first batch or run out now and get a tub for a water bath. If I do this, I'm gathering I'll have to drop sanitiser in the water so that "unclean" water doesn't get into the tap?

Thanks for your suggestions superstock. I think I'll have to try chase up a 14L container to hold the water (I've got a 7L pot I was going to use anyway... now just need another 14L to make up the 23L with the boiling water) :unsure:


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## wobbly (12/2/16)

A couple of alternative to keep your fermenter cooler.
If you have one place it in your bath half filled with water and don't get too hung up about the need to sanitise all that bath water just spray the tap out with santister before you open it. If the bath isn't an option what about the laundry sink. With both of these options you could reduce the bath/trough water temperature by placing a couple of 2 or 4 lt bottles of frozen water in and change twice daily. A bath or trough half full of water is quite a large heat sink and will not heat up/cool down very quickly 
If Bath and Laundry trough aren't a viable option you could always sit the fermenter on a cement floor in a cool place away from any warm/hot drafts and just drape a wet towel over the fermenter (look up Coolgardie Cooler) and re-wet this a couple of times for the first few days when the temperature will have most impact on your brew after about the third or fourth day temperature control isn't "so" critical 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (12/2/16)

TonyF said:


> I think I'll have to try chase up a 14L container to hold the water (I've got a 7L pot I was going to use anyway... now just need another 14L to make up the 23L with the boiling water) :unsure:


Why are you going to boil your water? A lot/most that start out brewing with kits just use the tap water without boiling. If it's chlorine reduction you are after you could do a couple of things.
Take your required water out of the hot water system and leave out over night to cool. That way the chlorine will dissipate and in any event just leaving tap water exposed to the atmosphere over night will achieve the same result
If you need to get ride of Chloramines then you could add half a Campden to your make up water You could get these from the Chemist or HBS

Cheers

Wobbly


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## superstock (12/2/16)

This is how I started out a couple of years ago. What you don't see is that the barrow has a brick under the wheel to get the bed level, the tray was almost full of water and there was a pedestal fan blowing on it. Not a bad temp reduction, but humidity has a big effect.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

Hey sorry Wobbly my post about the boiling water wasn't clear.. the boiled water is the 2L of "very hot water" on the instructions required to initially dissolve the LME and Morgan's Body Blend.

I'll pbly have to make a run to Bunnings to get a big enough container to hold the required amount (21L) of water overnight (I'm gathering it has to be sanitised as well).


superstock ... I love that setup... there's just something so home brew about that hehehe! Was the tap on your fermenter sitting in there?


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## contrarian (12/2/16)

This all sounds like a lot of trouble, pop back to the brew shop, buy any saison yeast and ferment at ambient temperature! Should turn out fine


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

LOL... That would be giving in to Mother Nature! I can't let that nasty B win! 

Though my friend and I both don't mind a nice saison ... so i'm sure that'll be on the cards at some point hahaha


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## wobbly (12/2/16)

TonyF said:


> I'll pbly have to make a run to Bunnings to get a big enough container to hold the required amount (21L) of water overnight *(I'm gathering it has to be sanitised as well).*


Not necessary to sanitise the tap water just try and get rid of the chlorine and chloramine as indicated above.

If you have a couple of plastic buckets they would do to hold your water over night.

A 2lt electric kettle and 2lt jug/container of some sort will suffice to mix the tin of "Goo"

Warm the tin in a pot of hot water on the stove* but dont boil.* Put 1lt of boiling water into your jug or other container and poor about half of the Kit can into it and mix well top up to 2lt with more hot water. Tip this into fermenter. Now add about 1lt or what ever the kit tin will hold of hot water and mix and then tip into your 2lt container and rinse the kit tin with more hot water and tip into 2lt container mix well and add to fermenter
Top up the fermenter with you de-clorinated water hot/cold to try and get your temperature to below 20C. You might need to have a few lts of cold water from the fridge on hand
Once you have topped up to your 23lt then add the brewing sugars and give it all a good stir and then add the yeast. Now you can just sprinkel the yest on top of the wort or rehydrate it (check out how to on this forum) many will say it is unnecessary to rehydrate but I'm a believer 

Happy Brewing

Wobbly
.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

Thanks so much for all the info Wobbly you're an absolute champ! :icon_cheers:

i picked up a 20L plastic jerry can from Bunnings which I'll sanitise later with everything else, i'll put 20L of water into my fermenter overnight (to let the chlorine out) which I'll transfer to the jerry can in the morning (and whack some in the fridge as my "cold water backup") then I'll go with your great instructions from there.

I picked up a large'ish tub which i can use to keep the temperatures down if it gets too hot during the week.

Picked up some Star-San from the LHBS. While there picked up some Wheat Malt. The nice bloke there told me to add this to my Sheaf Wheat malt extract with half of my LDME and throw the other half of my LDME and the Morgan's Body Blend into the Lager malt extract (the one I'll be attempting tomorrow).

Thanks again to you all for the invaluable information!

:beerbang:

contrarian.. I'm sure in the not too distant future there'll be a saison in there.. any idea where I can get a nice recipe that uses a can of liquid malt extract (I'm gonna stick with those until I have a few under my belt)?


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## wobbly (12/2/16)

Just make sure that the jerry can is suitable for storing potable water that is it is HDPE

If you are looking for a large SS pot then Big W have these https://www.bigw.com.au/product/smart-value-19-litre-stock-pot/p/WCC100000000011544/ for $20 

When mixing your Star San follow the directions for the strength. For a while I was mixing it too strong (*more is better belief!!*) but if it's too strong it is no longer a "No Rinse Sanitiser" The instructions are in US measurements and are 1 oz per 5 US Gallons = 28mls per 19lts = 1.5mils per 1lt. If you don't have a measuring devise that will measure that small a dose go to the chemist and get hold of one of those syringes for measuring small doses of medicine for small children

Cheers

Wobbly


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## superstock (12/2/16)

TonyF said:


> superstock ... I love that setup... there's just something so home brew about that hehehe! Was the tap on your fermenter sitting in there?


No tap, just a bung. Also no ice was used to achieve those temps, so it could be driven lower.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

superstock said:


> No tap, just a bung. Also no ice was used to achieve those temps, so it could be driven lower.


Ok.. this might be a silly question, how'd you get the beer out without a tap?. Did you use a siphon to put it into another vessel for bottling?


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

wobbly said:


> If you are looking for a large SS pot then Big W have these https://www.bigw.com.au/product/smart-value-19-litre-stock-pot/p/WCC100000000011544/ for $20


Looks like just the ticket for my 23L fermentor! Thanks Wobbly!
Oh and the jerry can has the nice big "2" in the triangle which I'm led to believe mean HDPE!


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## superstock (12/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Ok.. this might be a silly question, how'd you get the beer out without a tap?. Did you use a siphon to put it into another vessel for bottling?


Siphon, with bottler on the end of the tube.


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## contrarian (12/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Thanks so much for all the info Wobbly you're an absolute champ! :icon_cheers:
> 
> i picked up a 20L plastic jerry can from Bunnings which I'll sanitise later with everything else, i'll put 20L of water into my fermenter overnight (to let the chlorine out) which I'll transfer to the jerry can in the morning (and whack some in the fridge as my "cold water backup") then I'll go with your great instructions from there.
> 
> ...


Saison needs to be simple so I would get a Pilsner or lager can and a kilo of LDME and that's it. Saisons are yeast driven so keep the base as simple as possible and let the yeast do the talking. 

That said I haven't brewed a lot in a while so others might have better suggestions.


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

superstock said:


> Siphon, with bottler on the end of the tube.
> 
> 
> 
> Brew corner 091.jpg


I guess you gotta be careful not to suck up crap at the bottom of the fermenter?


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## TonyF (12/2/16)

contrarian said:


> Saison needs to be simple so I would get a Pilsner or lager can and a kilo of LDME and that's it. Saisons are yeast driven so keep the base as simple as possible and let the yeast do the talking.
> 
> That said I haven't brewed a lot in a while so others might have better suggestions.


Bugger... I have a lager can from the kit and a kilo of LDME... should of picked up the right yeast and done a saison tomorrow!

Thanks contrarian!


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## superstock (13/2/16)

TonyF said:


> I guess you gotta be careful not to suck up crap at the bottom of the fermenter?


Nope that 's what the red tip is for, picks up about 19mm above the floor, and you just tilt to get all but about 1/2 litre.


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## butisitart (13/2/16)

my first hbs guy answered my concerns about chlorine thus -
if it doesn't bother you in your drinking water, it's not going to affect your beer. simple.
cleaning bottles and soaking tired brewing gear - for first use, napisan. it runs on sodium percarbonate, same as the really expensive especially formulated brew cleaners.
after you drink bottled brew, rinse well under tap (with chlorine if you have to). no need to wash again.
sanitising - starsan only needs enough drops of it to make a froth when agitated. and that ain't much at all. no rinse. easy as. never tasted a brew and thought 'lingering palate of starsan' or 'clean malt enhanced by chlorine'. or 'pleasant bouquet of napisan'.
brewing should be simple fun, not surgical ward scrub-out stress.
going from the basic cans to steeping grains and a little steeped hops to partial mash to all-grain is what will lift your game.

for fermenting temp, brissy is probably no easier than perth. i don't have refrigerator brewing, so lager is out. every home is different, and i ferment in the broom cupboard right in the middle of the apartment. pretty stable all year round. i do most brews from feb (last weekend, in fact) to early nov and then have a holiday with enough to tide me over until feb. my 800 bottle cellar is in the garage, under the apartment block and again pretty stable for temperature. so yeah - a case of adapting to your surrounds. wife is not happy with vacum cleaner wedged between her hanging frocks but she love me anyway, apparently.


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## Weizguy (13/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Have just been looking into that Spookism .... only problem is... I want to start NOW! not when I find a fridge (I don't even know if i can wait the 15-20 days the instructions indicate the process will take)
> 
> Do most people go for a bar fridge or full sized?


In home brewing, there is often no "most people" option, as we're all unique and require (and acquire) what works for us and our individual set-ups.
That's why we have AHB and helpful helpers to help us with questions.

Most people start with what will fit their brew-space, and what they can afford, and adjust as finances and experience allow them to determine their required direction, or can afford the equipment they want.

If you're into this hobby for some time, you will find that your brewery will undergo a number of major do-overs as you upgrade for size/and or quality equipment.

Welcome to the obsession. Oops, was certain I typed something else there.


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## TonyF (14/2/16)

Thanks all for your help and advice! Got my first batch sitting in the laundry as we speak (got it all in yesterday 5pm)..

Started with 1Kg of Morgans Body Blend and 408g of a 1kg bag (which turned out to be 880g.. bastards!) of LDME from the LHBS... mixed in the can of lager and then threw the lot into the fementer. Had a starting gravity of 1047.

Forgot to get some water in the fridge to get a cooler wort so waited about 2 hours for the temp to drop from about 28C... Got tired of waiting and ran to the servo to get ice, threw the fermenter in an ice bath and got it eventually down to about 18C before pitching the yeast. it's been sitting between 16 and 22 most the time mostly around 18-20, which is when I'll throw in some more ice or a bottle with frozen water. 

I totally filled the airlock with vodka... after doing further research it sounds like I overfilled it so emptied half of it out. There isn't any bubbling to speak of, but I can see it's pushing the vodka along in the airlock and there's a smell of yeast in the laundry.

Won't check the gravity again until Thursday giving it the suggested 5days to ferment.

Will post an update when we get there 

Thanks again everyone!


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## Roosterboy (14/2/16)

You're not wrong about trying to keep everything sanitised in regard to boiling your water, the problem is
boiling can change the composition slightly and reduce dissolved oxygen needed for yeast growth.
The longer you leave it after boiling the more likely contamination. Unless you put it in closed containers
and cool them off in a ice bath. Consider at least a pasteurising your water , don't just add cold water 
from a tap.I know alot of brewers do it and if your brewing high alcohol beers , high IBU (lots of hops)
or pitching lots of yeast you may not notice it but try brewing a commercial(bland beer) clone they won't work.
With craft beers your trying to keep the good yeast at high enough levels to out-compete contaminants.
It's easier to cool smaller volumes so think about using a 15-20 L fermenter for small batches. I use these
for lagers so I can fit them in a medium sized fridge.
If using boiled water shake the hell out of it in the fermenter before adding yeast.
Commercial breweries don't do things they don't need to but they filter (take out bacteria and yeast) their water
and many that make beers with less flavour pasteurise them at the end.
They also use acid sanitisers , like star san.


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## butisitart (14/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Started with 1Kg of Morgans Body Blend and 408g of a 1kg bag (which turned out to be 880g.. bastards!) of LDME from the LHBS... ............
> 
> I totally filled the airlock with vodka... after doing further research it sounds like I overfilled it so emptied half of it out. There isn't any bubbling to speak of, but I can see it's pushing the vodka along in the airlock and there's a smell of yeast in the laundry.
> 
> ...


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## TonyF (15/2/16)

Wanted to check my scale so weighed out 1L of water.... 1002gm. Also checked the weights between my digital scales and my old analogue scales of various items (some of a known weight) and they pretty much agree with each other. I'd say the problem was more likely at the HBS.

The vodka was a suggestion I read somewhere on a forum (maybe AHS?) where people said they put vodka, some used no rinse sanitiser in their air lock in case the liquid got sucked back into the fermenter. Said that vodka wouldn't harbour bacteria and wouldn't affect the taste of the beer if it got sucked back in. I had already decided to pop some vodka in there when I read that 

I'll definitely be sure to measure the gravity looking for no change between 2-3 days before deciding to bottle. Thought that the best bet would be to leave it alone until the day of or day before the "suggested 5 day" mark.

Thanks for the suggestions!

PS I'm already thinking ahead to the next batch ... Les the Weizguy was right! Aaaarrrgggghhhh!!!


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## TonyF (15/2/16)

Had no airlock activity and a very small amount of foaming. Found that the airlock needed to sit all the way down in the grommet as it was leaking past if just the stem was going through the grommet (it had to go all the way down to where it branches out). Once i got it fitting nice and snug (last night - Sunday) it started bubbling away quite rapidly. Woke up this morning to find the bubbling had pretty much stopped and it appears through the lid that what little foam we had is receding. I've managed to pretty much keep the beer at between 17/18 - 20.

I'm still going to wait until the 5th day (Thursday) before taking a hydrometer reading as I heard it won't hurt the beer.

Doest it sound like the fermentation process has stalled/stopped and is this "normal" after less than about 36 hours? Should I be concerned or save the concern until I have taken the hydrometer reading on Thursday arvo?


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## butisitart (15/2/16)

a 36hr ferment is unusual, but not abnormal. a good eye gauge on if it is unusual or abnormal is to see how violent your yeastie eruptions were. there'll be a brown ring of dried something around the inside of the fermenter above the krausen. if it's a big thick brown line 10-15cm deep, then your yeasties have been having a real party and it may well have fermented through pretty quickly. it will be still fermenting a little, but the initial burst is over. if there is bugger all brown stuff ringed around the fermenter and it's stopped bubbling and the lid is sealed down properly onto the fermenter, then there's a good chance your yeast hasn't got a grip on it at all. maybe old or tired yeast, or not much oxygen in the wort.
if you tipped water into your fermenter from a great height and caused tons of air bubbles and seriously oxygenated the krausen, then oxygen is not the problem.if you didn't do that, then i would consider beating the crap out of your krausen to get some oxygen in there. nextly, a second dose of yeast might not go astray. but if you've got a healthy ring of grime caked proud and high around the top of the krausen mark, all is probably ok. it is summer after all, and that can cause a fast ferment.

and if you MUST throw vodka down your airlock, at least have the decency to invite me over to clean it for you :blink:


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## TonyF (16/2/16)

Weird... dunno if it's because I haven't been throwing frozen water bottles in there or what not, but when I went to check on it again I'm getting bubbling out the airlock... not as much as before but maybe once every 15s or so. I guess this shows it's obviously still fermenting. The temp is now showing 18-20 (both are "lit up" on the stick on thermometer) and prior to that it was probably more a little 16 and mostly 18.

The foam is still on top... it's not very thick I'd say no more than about 1.5-2cm and it's very clean whitish looking but there are obvious dark marks on the edge of the fermenter.

This is almost as bad as waiting for your first child to be delivered!

I probably stress too much.

buisitart.... come on over... you can have the whole bottle if you clean and sanitise my brewing gear after  (after I refill the airlock that is hehehe)


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## evoo4u (16/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Had no airlock activity and a very small amount of foaming. Found that the airlock needed to sit all the way down in the grommet as it was leaking past if just the stem was going through the grommet (it had to go all the way down to where it branches out). Once i got it fitting nice and snug (last night - Sunday) it started bubbling away quite rapidly.


G'day Tony

In all the years I've been doing K & Ks, I've always believed a good fitting airlock was essential to keep the invading hordes of nasties from infiltrating the wort, the sneaky little shits!

BUT, about two years ago, I got one of Cooper's new designs (with the removable krausen collar and the easy-clean tap) and no provision for an airlock at all. It's been all good! While it's not crystal clear, just a little bit milky looking, you can see what's going on inside - the krausen rising (occasionally erupting if it's a big beer), the astonishing convective activity within the wort when it's at full bore, and then when it's all settled down, you can look at the surface of the brew to see when it's all calm, and you can take your first SG reading - all without removing the lid.

I believe the idea of the krausen collar is that when the krausen initially subsides, you can lift the lid, remove the collar (easier to clean when the krausen ring is fresh) and refit the lid. Because there's still fermentation occurring, there's still CO2 being generated to force the air out through the not-so-tight fitting lid.

So not having to bother with an airlock is great, and the increased airspace with the krausen collar in place means no more overflows to clean up, as used to happen with monotonous regularity with the old FVs.

See - your brewing could be getting cheaper by not having to buy Vodka  .


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## TonyF (16/2/16)

LOL... I have a feeling that nobody likes to see wasted vodka :lol: :lol: ... I could probably keep the vodka and just throw Star-San in there.

I love my airlock though... you know what they say about people with simple minds.... "Duh... look at da pretty bubbles". I'll pbly get a second fermenter so I can have more than 1 batch going at a time and will need some new PET bottles to go with that fermenter so might look at the Coopers one.

This beer making process is so baffling.... my temp is now showing pretty much 20 (as I said I've stopped putting ice bottles in the water bath) and it's bubbling like it was late last night (maybe once every 1-2s). Maybe this beer's gonna be awesome cos the yeast are night time party animals (then again maybe the little bastards will consume all the alcohol they produce)? 

Wonder if i should start putting the ice blocks back in the water bath to get the temps back down again............


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## evoo4u (16/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Wonder if i should start putting the ice blocks back in the water bath to get the temps back down again............


I'd maintain the ideal temperature for at least five days. Bit of a pain having to use ice blocks/frozen water bottles etc, but keeping the yeast happy is worthwhile.

No problem down the track with a temp controlled fridge of course. My fridge is an old (1970's) Polish made bar fridge - still going strong. With the plastic door lining replaced by a flat sheet of galvanised steel, there's JUST enough room for the fermenter between the door lining and the motor 'hump' at the back. Newer bar fridges tend to be just too small, so if you're looking to acquire a fridge at some stage, you might need to look for a smaller 'normal' fridge, and pair it up with an external thermostat like the STC-1000.


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## TonyF (16/2/16)

evoo4u said:


> I'd maintain the ideal temperature for at least five days. Bit of a pain having to use ice blocks/frozen water bottles etc, but keeping the yeast happy is worthwhile.


What constitutes "ideal" though? The instructions on the can (22-27C I think it was) seem opposite to the advice of most home brewers, which is 18C or under if I'm not mistaken. Though at 18C it had activity.. then stalled... then at 20C it's started again. Don't know if the rise in temp is just coincidental or whether 18C was too cold for it (from all my readings it's a big fat "NO"), but if i go off the way it is now (20C) it's bubbling away happily (yet i still have this nagging feeling I should cool it again)....


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## TonyF (16/2/16)

Dropped it back down to 18C by throwing ice in the bath again and bubbling has (as far as i can tell sitting there for a few minutes) stopped. So must've been the higher 20+C temps. Maybe this yeast is tropical and is afraid of the cold 

Ok... I lied.. It's bubbling really slowly!


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## Yob (16/2/16)

What's the gravity reading, pay no attention to the bubbling, it bears little to no indication of fermentation at this point


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## Rocker1986 (16/2/16)

I would imagine the reason they recommend those higher temps on the kit cans is because most newbies like yourself don't have decent temp control (or even know anything about it), and it's easier for them to maintain. Unfortunately it doesn't really help the beer. Keeping it around 18-20 like you have is much better.

+1 pay no attention to the bubbling, but also don't necessarily expect that it will be finished in 5 days; at 18-20C it probably won't be anyway. Personally I don't take any gravity readings until day 7 or 8.

I still have one of those airlock style fermenters myself, except in place of the airlock is a piece of gaffa tape covering the hole. The lid itself is not airtight, so it works basically the same way as the new Coopers design.  One less thing to clean and sanitise. :lol:


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## contrarian (16/2/16)

A yeast can easily chomp through beer in as little as 2-3 days but a different yeast could take 3 or more weeks to finish off. As yob said there is only one way to tell where it is up to and that is take a gravity reading.


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## TonyF (17/2/16)

This batch seems truly weird.. Slows down/stops during the day... And ramps up again at night time! I'm sitting here listening to it gurgle every 4 or 5s when today during the day it either crawled along or did long periods with seemingly no bubbling.... *confused* 

I guess we'll just see how things go come Thursday evening...


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## TonyF (17/2/16)

Ok.. looks like we might be nearing the end point of fermentation (i can start to see the actual liquid from the foam dissipating and the airlock liquid is even on both sides meaning pressure outside and inside the fermenter shoudl be about even). 

I'm going to start checking it tomorrow morning and then again each morning after until I get steady gravity reading.

One thing I wanted to ask was, the instructions say to throw the first quarter of a cup of liquid out before taking gravity readings. Do you guys do this? Do you do it every reading or just the first one since fermentation slowed/stopped?

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions folks!


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## evoo4u (17/2/16)

TonyF said:


> One thing I wanted to ask was, the instructions say to throw the first quarter of a cup of liquid out before taking gravity readings. Do you guys do this? Do you do it every reading or just the first one since fermentation slowed/stopped?


Re the discarding of some before you take an SG reading, it's because the tap near the bottom of the FV gets filled with trub and other assorted crap, so I just 'blip' the tap for half a second, the test tube gets half full with rubbishy gunk which I discard, then the next lot is pretty clean 'pure' wort. And yeah, I only do it for the first reading. Not much additional gunk tends to come through into the test tube with successive readings.

You're pretty excited by this brew, aren't you  . I usually leave my brews in the FV for at least 10 days. Won't hurt - lets the brew clear a bit. And for lagers, quite a bit longer again, as they're fermented at lower temps than ales, and just take longer. Then add in some 'cold crashing' if you have a fridge, and the duration extends out even further.

But it's a wonderful journey you've embarked upon... :beerbang:


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## TonyF (17/2/16)

Excited?... I'm gonna wet my pants waiting for this thing to be drinkable!

I'm already thinking of getting a fridge/chest freezer with a temp controller and a kegging system.... Just gotta find some way to do this without the wife finding out hahaha!

As soon as this ones bottled and my friend is well enough to drive again the wheat one is going into the fermentation bucket!


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## TonyF (18/2/16)

OK... have taken the first of the post fermentation readings 111 hours (roughly) after adding the yeast and got a reading of 1016. So with my original gravity of 1047 that would be roughly 4.1% ABV?

Attached is a pic of how the fermentation bucket looked at the end and the gravity reading I took this morning. Will take another one tomorrow morning to compare.


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## evoo4u (18/2/16)

TonyF said:


> OK... have taken the first of the post fermentation readings 111 hours (roughly) after adding the yeast and got a reading of 1016.


Geez Tony, ya gunna have to be a bit more precise - this is an exacting science ya know! 

Anyway - how'd it taste? (And of course, don't put the sample back into the FV - it'd present another avenue for infection of the whole brew.)

Edit: And there's still a fair way to go from 1.016 I'd guess.


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## Diesel80 (18/2/16)

Tony F stop stalking your beer mate. You are being a helicopter homebrewer


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## superstock (18/2/16)

Leave it alone @ 18-20c for 168 hours and then take a gravity reading.


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## TonyF (18/2/16)

evoo4u said:


> Geez Tony, ya gunna have to be a bit more precise - this is an exacting science ya know!
> 
> Anyway - how'd it taste? (And of course, don't put the sample back into the FV - it'd present another avenue for infection of the whole brew.)
> 
> Edit: And there's still a fair way to go from 1.016 I'd guess.


Everything seems to have kind of stopped though... no more foam, no more air lock activity... I guess tomorrows gravity reading will tell.
It smelt like beer... and it kind of tasted like beer but not quite right (if you know what I mean)... and had a fair amount of bubbles in it especially considering I thought they are flat post fermentation.

You really think it'll go further from 1.016 for a kit Morgan's Lager?


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## TonyF (18/2/16)

Diesel80 said:


> Tony F stop stalking your beer mate. You are being a helicopter homebrewer


I can't help it! I guess that's where the restraining order came from then 

Excuse my ignorance but what is a helicopter homebrewer???


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## TonyF (18/2/16)

superstock said:


> Leave it alone @ 18-20c for 168 hours and then take a gravity reading.


So no gravity reading for tomorrow?

I'll defer to your greater level of experience and leave it till Saturday evening then 

PS Looks like the cold water bottles are going back in the freezer hehehe


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## evoo4u (18/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what is a helicopter homebrewer???


Helicopters hover!


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## spog (19/2/16)

TonyF said:


> So no gravity reading for tomorrow?
> 
> I'll defer to your greater level of experience and leave it till Saturday evening then
> 
> PS Looks like the cold water bottles are going back in the freezer hehehe


Take a reading today and Saturday to be sure.


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## TonyF (19/2/16)

Ok.. took a reading today and it seems about the same at 1016. Definitely smells like beer and seems to have a fairly bitter finish... though that may be cause it's "warm" and I don't usually give my beers time to get to that temperature normally 

On a side note, I saw a video where it said to plunge the hydrometer up and down in the tube to remove as much carbonation as possible... do you guys normally do this?


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## Seaquebrew (19/2/16)

Spinning the hydrometer will get rid of any bubbles that stick to it 

Cheers


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## evoo4u (19/2/16)

After drawing off a sample I wait a while for the foam on the surface to subside. Also I spin the hydrometer in the tube to spin off any bubbles which might be attached to the hydrometer, which would cause it to float higher.

Still think 1.016 is too high, but that depends on what unfermentable sugars you might have added.

As for bubbling through the airlock, as others have said, it's not a good way to assess fermentation occurring, as expansion and contraction with different temperatures can cause bubbles. So you're on the right track with SG readings. Just don't be too hasty - bottle bombs are scary!


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## TonyF (19/2/16)

I'm sure the missus won't be too happy if one of the PET bottles explodes in the laundry hehehe

All that went into this brew was the can of Morgan's Premium Blue Mountain Lager, 1Kg of Morgan's body blend (Dextrose, Maltodextrin blend, though can't find any info on the percentages of each) and 408gm of LDME.

I did see this post (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/35417-final-gravity-wont-drop-under-1010/) from back in 2009 where this bloke said his Morgans Blue Mountain Lager had stalled at 1015 (don't know what he ended up getting for it)


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## TonyF (19/2/16)

Bugger it ... after doing a bit of reading I might leave it till Sunday before taking another reading. 

Should I give it a swirl in the fermenter to see if there's any "sleeping" yeast and giving them a wake up?


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## wobbly (19/2/16)

TonyF said:


> I'm sure the missus won't be too happy if one of the PET bottles explodes in the laundry hehehe


Pet bottles are unlikely to "EXPLODE" like glass does. They will just split or crack and release the pressure.

One of the good points about using PET bottles is that you can tell (with a bit of experience) if they are becoming over carbonated as the bottle will become firmer and firmer to the point that you will not be able to squeeze the bottle at all as pressure builds up where as with a glass bottle you don't have the ability to judge the pressure build up until it explodes/shatters 

On another point how do you intend priming the PET bottles when you do get around to bottling. If you haven't thought about "Bulk Priming" it would well worth your while to do a search and have a read. It's far easier and much more consistent than trying to add a "Measured" amount of priming sugar to each boittle

Cheers

Wobbly


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## TonyF (19/2/16)

wobbly said:


> On another point how do you intend priming the PET bottles when you do get around to bottling. If you haven't thought about "Bulk Priming" it would well worth your while to do a search and have a read. It's far easier and much more consistent than trying to add a "Measured" amount of priming sugar to each boittle


Hi Wobbly!

It's good to hear the PET bottles are unlikely to explode, I guess that's why they give them to us noobs in the starter kits 

With regards to carbonation, the kit came with carbonation drops. Says to drop 2 of them little carbonation lollies into each 740mL bottle. To do bulk priming I'd need a secondary fermenter or bucket (or can i mix it up and pour it directly into the primary and gently stir it in?). Either way, I think i'll keep it as simple as possible for the first few lots of bottling and use the drops that were provided (and eventually maybe look into getting a kegging system hehehe).

Speaking of that... I really do need to get a second fermenter and some more PET bottles so I can have more than one lot fermenting at a time 

Cheers,
Tony


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## TonyF (20/2/16)

2nd gravity check 19/02




3rd gravity check 20/02

Doesn't look like the gravity has changed much, if at all, since Thursday's initial check.

Sure seems pretty gassy though.... Hope it doesn't "blow" any bottles 
Might leave it for today and then throw it into bottles tomorrow morning seeing the gravity doesn't appear to be changing.


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## contrarian (20/2/16)

Have you checked your hydrometer in water to make sure it is reading correctly. Still seems high to me for a kit and kilo, would be anticipating 1.010 or maybe even lower for a standard but measuring error explains a decent percentage of brewing conundrums!


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## superstock (20/2/16)

As keen as you are to try your first brew, rushing it won't make it better. Time allows the yeast to clean up off flavours and then settle out making the beer clearer. I usually leave the brew in the fermenter for 14 days. Don't take what's written on the can as gospel. Remember it's written by spin doctors. Ferment your ales at 18-20"c for 14 days will give the best results. Leave for at least 14 days at ambient temps, the PET bottles should be nice and firm when carbed, like a soft drink bottle.


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## TonyF (20/2/16)

contrarian said:


> Have you checked your hydrometer in water to make sure it is reading correctly. Still seems high to me for a kit and kilo, would be anticipating 1.010 or maybe even lower for a standard but measuring error explains a decent percentage of brewing conundrums!


Had some boiled water in the kettle (the best I can do for now)...




Looks pretty much bang on to me. Would the 400g of LDME (on top of the kit's 1Kg of "Body Blend") make a difference?


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## TonyF (20/2/16)

superstock said:


> As keen as you are to try your first brew, rushing it won't make it better. Time allows the yeast to clean up off flavours and then settle out making the beer clearer. I usually leave the brew in the fermenter for 14 days. Don't take what's written on the can as gospel. Remember it's written by spin doctors. Ferment your ales at 18-20"c for 14 days will give the best results. Leave for at least 14 days at ambient temps, the PET bottles should be nice and firm when carbed, like a soft drink bottle.


Yep I know you're speaking wise words superstock.. but damn patience has NEVER been one of my virtues 
I guess I'm going to have to learn if I want to stick at this home brew thing ... *Sigh*

For the record this one is a "lager".. Supposedly it does actually come with lager yeast (saw a post from years ago where somebody contacted Morgan's and they confirmed it).


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## SBOB (20/2/16)

TonyF said:


> For the record this one is a "larger"..


sure its not a smaller?


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## TonyF (20/2/16)

SBOB said:


> sure its not a smaller?


Nice one ... Seeing it's the first it's larger than my previous hehehe


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## contrarian (20/2/16)

TonyF said:


> Had some boiled water in the kettle (the best I can do for now)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't read that at all but would stand by what I said. Even with what you've chucked in I would be thinking 1.016 would be too high to bottle. I'd be aiming for 1.012 at a minimum. 

Have you given the fermenter a swirl?


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## Chridech (20/2/16)

contrarian said:


> I can't read that at all but would stand by what I said. Even with what you've chucked in I would be thinking 1.016 would be too high to bottle. I'd be aiming for 1.012 at a minimum.
> Have you given the fermenter a swirl?


Remember also TonyF there is a temperature correction for hydrometers. Most are calibrated to read true at 20c, it should be written somewhere on it. If your cooled boiled water was at a signicantly different temp then you could be a few points out.

http://www.captainbrew.com has lots of useful calculators including hydrometer temp correction. I found this useful as a fellow newb.


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## TonyF (20/2/16)

contrarian said:


> I can't read that at all but would stand by what I said. Even with what you've chucked in I would be thinking 1.016 would be too high to bottle. I'd be aiming for 1.012 at a minimum.
> 
> Have you given the fermenter a swirl?


Yeah.. I kinda stuffed that up a bit. Basically where the water level is, is 1000.

I didn't give the fermenter a swirl, wasn't sure if I had to worry about washing all the gunk on the side of the fermenter into the beer.

I just checked it again and it's definitely at 1000 for the boiled water (if anything it's a smidgen under).

So swirling the fermenter is all ok?


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## TonyF (20/2/16)

Chridech said:


> Remember also TonyF there is a temperature correction for hydrometers. Most are calibrated to read true at 20c, it should be written somewhere on it. If your cooled boiled water was at a signicantly different temp then you could be a few points out.
> 
> http://www.captainbrew.com has lots of useful calculators including hydrometer temp correction. I found this useful as a fellow newb.


Thanks for that Chirdech... some great info on that site.

No there wasn't any indication on the hydrometer of what temp it's calibrated for. There wasn't actually any instructions on it or in the tube, those only appeared in the Morgan's instruction booklet which came with the kit.

The water was pretty much at room temperature which is 23C. I might do a better test of the hydrometer by using my food thermometer to check the water temp.


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## TonyF (21/2/16)

Went to another homebrew store today to buy a second starter kit (picked up a Mangrove Jack's starter kit with 30 PET bottles for $79.90!). Comes with their Traditional Series Blonde Lager and a bag of straight dextrose monohydrate rather than a dextrose/maltodextrin blend like the Morgan's kit and a sachet of beer finings (will have to read about that one).

Also picked up what I THINK is referred to a partial mash kit made by the LHBS (they called it "Sierra Nevada" Pale Ale - seems to come with a bag of grains, some kind of malt/sugar pack and finishing hops) and of their can's of Pale Ale to mix with it.

So now I'm set for 4 lots of brews... the Mogran's Lager going at the moment, the Blonde Lager that comes in the Mangrove Jacks starter kit , the Morgan's Sheafed wheat kit that I bought with the Morgan's starter kit and the partial mash kit I bought today. Need more bottles!!! hahahaa


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## superstock (21/2/16)

As I said previously, go to Officeworks and buy 2 bottles of Aqua to Go 12L for about $11 a bottle. Use the water to brew with and end up with 2 x 12L PET fermenters. Being clear you can helicopter and watch the yeasties rise and fall while they do their thing.
The other benefit is you have 2 small fermenters so that you can split a brew and use different additions/late hopping etc to learn the effects and taste.


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## butisitart (21/2/16)

leave it till next weekend if you work mon-fri. it won't go away and you get into a routine. plus the brew will clear a bit, the fermentation will settle, and you can spend an extra week wondering what it must be like to be me, sitting here with a delicious wheat beer bottled 12june, and a nice cold doppelbock to follow, bottled 19june. patience. :beerbang: 

if your brew paws are itching, you can always go and buy another fermenter and get a second brew going.


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## Diesel80 (21/2/16)

Just noticed your a Perthie tony. My kegs are empty, hope you made enough to go round!

What Homebrew shop do you visit? Can PM me as it is a little O/T.

Cheers,
D80


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## TonyF (22/2/16)

superstock.. I remember your post to do with the water... Don't remember you mentioning using it as a fermenter but damn that's a good idea. And I can stare through that clear plastic like a school boy wandering the red light district of Amsterdam!


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## TonyF (22/2/16)

butisitart said:


> leave it till next weekend if you work mon-fri. it won't go away and you get into a routine. plus the brew will clear a bit, the fermentation will settle, and you can spend an extra week wondering what it must be like to be me, sitting here with a delicious wheat beer bottled 12june, and a nice cold doppelbock to follow, bottled 19june. patience. :beerbang:
> 
> if your brew paws are itching, you can always go and buy another fermenter and get a second brew going.


I work Mon-Fri.. The problem is I work from home hehehe... By the way, thanks for telling me about how fast your brewing life is 

I actually did buy the second fermenter today, so I'm gonna try find some time to drop the next batch soon!


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## TonyF (3/3/16)

Finally got around to bottling on Saturday (also dropped my second batch into the fermenter)!

This is what most of the stuff looks like (there's 2 bottles that are kind of cloudy, but they picked up some of the trub when my "assistant" swirled it a little when tipping the fermenter forward).





Looks pretty clear to me, probably from the extra week in the fermenter(??)! I'm not going to bother tasting any of it until it's been in the bottles for 2 weeks (unless temptation really gets the better of me and I crack a single bottle on the weekend  )

Thanks for all your help everybody!


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## Rocker1986 (3/3/16)

I don't think I've ever had beer that clear at bottling time before, nice! I am sure you will enjoy that first bottle immensely, being your first brew and all.


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## TonyF (4/3/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> I don't think I've ever had beer that clear at bottling time before, nice! I am sure you will enjoy that first bottle immensely, being your first brew and all.


Hehehe.. thanks! I really can't wait to get a good taste of it! Here's hoping it's not that clear cause it's flavourless  (Will have to post another pic when it's in a glass just to show it has some colour hahaha)


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## Hop Thief (21/3/16)

TonyF said:


> Hehehe.. thanks! I really can't wait to get a good taste of it! Here's hoping it's not that clear cause it's flavourless  (Will have to post another pic when it's in a glass just to show it has some colour hahaha)


Hey Tony, this thread was a great read mate. I'm in the process of getting everything together to do my first brew. So how did your first brew taste, hope it was good and where is the pic of it in a glass.


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## TonyF (22/3/16)

Hop Thief said:


> Hey Tony, this thread was a great read mate. I'm in the process of getting everything together to do my first brew. So how did your first brew taste, hope it was good and where is the pic of it in a glass.


Hey there! Glad the thread was enjoyable for you. The guys on the AHB forum are awesome and have so much information to share!

It's a great fun process... I stress over too many things as you can probably see from the posts in this thread but it feels quite good getting it bottled and drinking something you've made yourself. Heaps to learn and so many different variables to play with just with kits alone and then you have all grain brewing on top of that where your imagination and taste buds are your only limit 

I've just finished bottling my second batch, a Sierra Nevada IPA clone from the LHBS and will be looking at boiling up my third one this weekend (an Irish Stout kit from the LHBS).

So far I've only had 3 bottles and one of those was a scabby bit from the bottom of the fermenter... it had so much shit in there I was surprised at how it all settled at the bottom of the bottle, the next one was about two weeks after bottling and the other one was last Friday (approx 3 weeks after bottling and after sitting in the fridge for a week). I've just popped another bottle in the fridge today so will take some pictures after I let it sit in the fridge for a couple of days.

They did appear quite a bit more "hazy" than when they were sitting at room temp in the bottle (this might be the "chill haze" everyone talks about).

Here's the first glass from the bottle of "crud" (before refrigeration the bottle was as clear as the bottle i posted earlier):




This was from the first "proper" bottle:




I found the first proper bottle (2 weeks after bottling) was still a little "vegemite-y". The extra vegemite taste might be from the LDME we added to the "kit" giving it a more malty taste? It's still a little vegemite-y but I find it quite drinkable.

The last one was a little clearer and I shared it with a friend who seemed to like it. Said it was nice, not the best brew he's had but he wouldn't have pegged it for home brew. Will have to give some to my partner in crime (my brew partner... who's only contribution so far is to help buy the first kit and pouring the wort from the first kit into the fermenter! hahaha) and see what she thinks of it.

On top of the Irish Stout kit, I have another 2 kits (a Morgan's wheat beer kit and Mangrove Jacks Blond Lager) to get rid of, after which I'm thinking of maybe trying my hand at BIAB (I wonder if the kits for the Sierra Nevada and the Irish Stout count as partial-BIAB, even they use both LDME and LME, you steep some grains in a bag before adding these... it also comes with a little bag of hops! Woohoo!) or maybe even looking at trying my hand at all-grain.

Good luck with it and let us know how you go!


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## Rocker1986 (22/3/16)

Yeah mate, if they go more hazy when cold than what they appear at room temp then it's chill haze. I got tired of it in my beers after a while and now remove it with Polyclar post fermentation.


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## TonyF (23/3/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> Yeah mate, if they go more hazy when cold than what they appear at room temp then it's chill haze. I got tired of it in my beers after a while and now remove it with Polyclar post fermentation.


Thanks rocker!... I might need to look into that! Is it just an aesthetic thing or does it affect taste in some way?


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## Rocker1986 (23/3/16)

Purely aesthetic, although it supposedly prevents premature staling if the beer is aged for extended periods. Mine never get that long unless they're big dark ales, so it's pretty much only aesthetic for me. In saying that though, the appearance does slightly affect my perception of the flavour; I perceive hazy beers to have a more muddied flavour than clear beers for some reason. In reality though, the flavour is not changed.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I think the beer needs to be cold in order for the stuff to work properly. I always add it while the FV is cold crashing.


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## TonyF (3/4/16)

Hop Thief said:


> Hey Tony, this thread was a great read mate. I'm in the process of getting everything together to do my first brew. So how did your first brew taste, hope it was good and where is the pic of it in a glass.


How'd ya first brew go Hop Thief?


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