# Frustrated with end results



## RedBeardBrewer (16/11/20)

No matter which recipe I seem to follow or what clone kit I get, the end results have never matched up to the expectations I have. Don't get me wrong, I think it's largely due to me and not necessarily because I'm brewing with extracts.

One of the biggest issues I'm having is getting those punchy hop profiles into the beer. I've followed recipes, boiled, steep and dry hopped, but what I'm getting is a malt heavy tasting beer. It's driving me insane and I don't know how to fix the problem.

Anyone else had these issues and how did you overcome them?

Cheers


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## JDW81 (16/11/20)

Hey mate,

this is a common complaint, but need a little more info to help you out.

What are your processes? I.e. kit style, grain/LMDE/sugar additives/hop schedules and amounts/yeast used/fermentation temp and conditions/kegging or bottling?

Once we’ve got some more information about how you go about it, we can help you out a little more to get some better results.

Cheers,

JD


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## MHB (16/11/20)

Use less extract and more fully fermentable adjunct (dextrose, sugar).
When you buy malt extract you have no control over mash temperature (and a bunch of other parameters) so no control over the fermentability of the wort. I suspect most of the malt extract made is designed for kit manufacture and assumes the brewer will be a Kit and Kilo brewer or close to.
If you took a common kit at 1.7kg and about 80% solids (malt extract) you are using 1.36kg of ME and say 1kg of Dex (91% solids) 1.36+0.91= 2.27kg. Or 40% simple fully fermentable sugars.
That's going to lighten the body significantly and let your hops show through a lot more.

Not necessarily suggesting you just use 40% sugar, but some, try say 25% of your total solids.
Also assumes you have good temperature control, use good yeast, have good hygiene and are following good brewing practice to make your beer.

People say simple sugars lighten the body, they do but only as part of the total OG.
A beer that started at 1.050 and finished at 1.010 has changed by 40 points, has an apparent attenuation of 80%.
Add enough Dex to make the OG 1.060 and it will still finish at 1.010 and will have almost the same mouth feel.
Replace some of the OG with fully fermentable sugar and it will finish lower. If you used the K&K mix above I get an FG a smidge over 1.006 your beer will be lighter and dryer and the hops will show up better.

Mark


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## contrarian (16/11/20)

What sort of hop levels are you using for late boil hops and dry hops? Kegs or bottles? 

It is hard to get that really punchy flavour but to see if it is something to do with the extract process or something to do with fermentation you could get a hoppy fresh wort kit, dry hop and see if you have the same issues.

There are so many things that could contribute to this from water chemistry, yeast choice, packaging etc etc that it's hard to know where to start.


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## onemorecell (16/11/20)

More hops in a longer whirlpool at a cooler temp. Big DH.

Put 30g hops in at 95 degrees
If you're cubing, put 80-100g hops in your cube and cube between 75-80 degrees. When cubing at this temp, ferment it asap.
If not cubing, do a 30-60min whirlpool at 65-75 degrees.
I put about 5 ibu hops @60, but personal preference.

Then do a double DH. First with about 6-10 points left in gravity. Second DH when you've reached FG
200g total DH

Also, use at least 50g of Cryo hops. Split 50-50 ish between the cube and DH. It's ******* nuts.

Once you've done this you can worry about water profiles etc to try to ramp it up even more.


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## RedBeardBrewer (16/11/20)

JDW81 said:


> What are your processes? I.e. kit style, grain/LMDE/sugar additives/hop schedules and amounts/yeast used/fermentation temp and conditions/kegging or bottling?



So the kits I've been using are a combination of grains, liquid malt and dry malt extracts. Hops are boiled at intervals as per the recipe, and dry hopped usually at day 4 and day 7. Fermentation temp is around 25°C and wort is close transferred to a keg. Keg is then force carbonated, and following advice on this site, at about 10psi for 1 week.


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## RedBeardBrewer (16/11/20)

onemorecell said:


> Put 30g hops in at 95 degrees
> If you're cubing, put 80-100g hops in your cube and cube between 75-80 degrees. When cubing at this temp, ferment it asap.
> If not cubing, do a 30-60min whirlpool at 65-75 degrees.



What do you mean by "cubing"? I've not come across this term before.


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## onemorecell (16/11/20)

RedBeardBrewer said:


> What do you mean by "cubing"? I've not come across this term before.


It's where you put the wort into a cube to cool down, instead of using a chiller.
Theory being the wort goes in hot, and you fill it completely full, so there's no oxygen and all bugs are killed.

What's the biggest pot you have?

And give me an example of a recipe you made recently that wanted really hoppy.


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## RRising (16/11/20)

Also what is your water chemistry profile like, there seems to be anecdotal evidence that by lowering your PH increases AG efficiency and helps retain hop aroma.

Bring up your local water charts and play around with some water chemistry tools like Bru 'n' Water.


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## kadmium (16/11/20)

RedBeardBrewer said:


> So the kits I've been using are a combination of grains, liquid malt and dry malt extracts. Hops are boiled at intervals as per the recipe, and dry hopped usually at day 4 and day 7. Fermentation temp is around 25°C and wort is close transferred to a keg. Keg is then force carbonated, and following advice on this site, at about 10psi for 1 week.


It really has a lot of variables to be honest. 

Fermenting at 25c, is this under pressure or not?

What yeast strain?

Which hops and in what amounts?

How long after dry hop do you wait before crashing and kegging?

Do you purge the kegs before filling?


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## kadmium (16/11/20)

RRising said:


> Also what is your water chemistry profile like, there seems to be anecdotal evidence that by lowering your PH increases AG efficiency and helps retain hop aroma.
> 
> Bring up your local water charts and play around with some water chemistry tools like Bru 'n' Water.


Not anecdotal, pH is proven to contribute to the enzymatic activity in an all grain situation.


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## RRising (16/11/20)

kadmium said:


> Not anecdotal, pH is proven to contribute to the enzymatic activity in an all grain situation.



Ok, i looked it up after i posted it and seems to be an actual benefit. 

Not too sure how much PH affects wort kits which have probably had the treated when brewed.


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## MHB (16/11/20)

Guys he's an *Extract Brewer* not a masher, probably not a full volume boiler...
KISS, get the basics right, then go crazy.
Mark


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## Naboo (16/11/20)

I used the Coopers recipes for a while when I started out. Cans, hops and grains. In just about all of them I really had to increase the hops above that in the recipe to get something in the realm of what I was expecting they should be like.
What are some of the recipes you have used?


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## onemorecell (16/11/20)

MHB said:


> Guys he's an *Extract Brewer* not a masher, probably not a full volume boiler...
> KISS, get the basics right, then go crazy.
> Mark


exactly... this isn't a water profile issue. this is just not using enough hops issue!


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## peterlonz (17/11/20)

onemorecell said:


> Then do a double DH. First with about 6-10 points left in gravity. Second DH when you've reached FG
> 200g total DH
> Also, use at least 50g of Cryo hops. Split 50-50 ish between the cube and DH. It's ******* nuts.



What exactly is a DH?
Never heard of cryo hops
Most brewers do not design around "points of gravity".
They typically weigh the components for the particular batch, usually 23 litres.
Also lots of reasonably good brews come from twocan recipes, plenty of hop flavours.


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## peterlonz (17/11/20)

Naboo said:


> I used the Coopers recipes for a while when I started out. Cans, hops and grains. In just about all of them I really had to increase the hops above that in the recipe to get something in the realm of what I was expecting they should be like.
> What are some of the recipes you have used?


Totally agree.
I think there are several reasons:
Most folk are attuned to commercial beers which are not hoppy at all, so the kit is designed to sort of fit in with typical customer expectations.
More hops means greater cost.
I keep around 10 100 gram packets of hops of different types, in the fridge at about 2.5 C
Use them in different ways but no trouble getting strong hop flavour.


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## MHB (17/11/20)

Probably Dry Hop.
m


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## kadmium (17/11/20)

peterlonz said:


> What exactly is a DH?
> Never heard of cryo hops
> Most brewers do not design around "points of gravity".
> They typically weigh the components for the particular batch, usually 23 litres.
> Also lots of reasonably good brews come from twocan recipes, plenty of hop flavours.


Extract brewers don't design their recipes around points of gravity I suppose, as they are using cans but they would still want to target a specific OG and FG if they could like a non extract brewer.

Also, BU:GU is a valid way of figuring out hop additions, as well as g/l for dry hopping.

And adding dry hops with around 1 or 2 plato left in ferment is a pretty normal thing when going for hazy IPAs so I disagree and would say most brewers revolve heavily around "points of gravity" and actually design their beers around them... otherwise I would just throw 300g of malt into 23L and wonder why I get water.

Better throw out my Refractometer, Tilt and Hydrometer I guess...


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## onemorecell (17/11/20)

peterlonz said:


> What exactly is a DH?
> Never heard of cryo hops
> *Most brewers do not design around "points of gravity".*


I know I'm gonna come across as a huge dick by saying this, but if you don't know what a DH is, or what Cryo hops are, maybe stay away from advice such as bolded. Open your eyes, you might learn something.

Cryo hops are the bees knees. Give them a try.


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## frosty3 (17/11/20)

You could try adding hops to the keg.


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## peterlonz (18/11/20)

There's always some jerk who can't wait to put someone down.
I wonder if e ran a contest how many folks would have heard of either.
Yes maybe just asking the question could have been the beginning of further learning.
Oh yes another point: I will guarantee fewer use refractometers than the number that do.


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## johnsnakeclark (9/12/20)

I'm about to do my first big dry hop on an all inn brewing fresh wort kit, probably just one of their basic pales.

Thanks for the recommendations on the cryo hops I'll look into these, I've enjoyed commercial beers that use these.


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## onemorecell (9/12/20)

johnsnakeclark said:


> I'm about to do my first big dry hop on an all inn brewing fresh wort kit, probably just one of their basic pales.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendations on the cryo hops I'll look into these, I've enjoyed commercial beers that use these.


Good luck! It's recommend to mix cryo with regular hops for best results.
I would normally do 50g cryo + 150g regular hops, spread over 2 dry hops (but lately have been toying with going even higher)


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## contrarian (24/12/20)

peterlonz said:


> There's always some jerk who can't wait to put someone down.
> I wonder if e ran a contest how many folks would have heard of either.
> Yes maybe just asking the question could have been the beginning of further learning.
> Oh yes another point: I will guarantee fewer use refractometers than the number that do.



Cryo hops are a fairly new product where hops are frozen, I believe using liquid nitrogen, to separate the volatiles that we want for brewing, alpha acids etc, from the vegetable matter. This results in a much higher aa% than the same strain of hops in normal pellets. It can be helpful for late boil or whirlpool additions, or dry hops which are hops added to the fermenter (normally after active fermentation is complete).

In terms of hop aroma most of this will come from dry hops with a contribution from whirlpool additions (this is dependent on time, temperature and whether or not you chill. This is assuming a partial boil, if you are using straight kits into a fermenter then upping the hops added to the fermenter should help to increase aroma.

Hope this helps


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