# $30 BIAB vs $1000+ 3v herms



## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

I dont claim to be the worlds best or most experienced brewer but my basic BIAB system produces beer I rate better than commercial brews and receives praise from family and friends. So I'm happy... Kind of...

I'm also a gadget fanatic which creates the dilemma of urges to build a complex brew set up..

But is it really worth it? Using same ingredients would the 2 systems make such vastly different beer that on your first sip you will say wow- that's clearly not BIAB it's 3v herms that cost over $1k??


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## manticle (6/4/13)

Don't start this up. Brew how you want, build what you want.

Been done before. Forget the versus shit - it's pointless.

Build something if you feel like it. You won't save the world.


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## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

I hear you manticle.. Ok forgot the equipment, which produces a better product?


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## bum (6/4/13)

Drunken rants should usually go in "Off Topic" section at the bottom, timmi9191.


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## Yob (6/4/13)

The brewer produces great beer..


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## Truman42 (6/4/13)

If your 3v Herms cost you over $1k your doing it wrong.


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## felten (6/4/13)

You'd be better off looking at improving on yeast health, temperature, and sanitisation, they have a larger impact than the method of wort production.


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## manticle (6/4/13)

timmi9191 said:


> I hear you manticle.. Ok forgot the equipment, which produces a better product?


Your question makes no sense. Forget the equipment but what equipment makes better beer?

None. All equipment can be used well or badly. Most highly awarded member of my brewclub brews stovetop BIAB, no chilled. I have tasted delicious HERMS, RIMS and braumeister beers too and shit ones from every camp, including my own half arsed 3V.


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## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

I hear you also, yob.. But mark webber won't go as fast in a Mazda 3 and even Maro Pierre White can't make strawberry jam without strawberries..


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## bum (6/4/13)

timmi9191 said:


> I hear you also, yob.. But mark webber won't go as fast in a Mazda 3 and even Maro Pierre White can't make strawberry jam without strawberries..


Even though you're "hearing" things, what you aren't "understanding" is that the man maketh the beer, not the gear. You want to improve then you have to learn some stuff then practice it. The only way to buy you way to better beer is to go to a good brewery.

Work out what process you think suits you best then research then do.

[EDIT: drunken typos are okay in any of the fora]


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## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

manticle said:


> Your question makes no sense. Forget the equipment but what equipment makes better beer?
> 
> None. All equipment can be used well or badly. Most highly awarded member of my brewclub brews stovetop BIAB, no chilled. I have tasted delicious HERMS, RIMS and braumeister beers too and shit ones from every camp, including my own half arsed 3V.


For a question that makes no sense you answered it well... Thank you

Bum - Understanding is a relation between the knower and an object of understanding. If i knew and understood i would not have asked!!


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## bum (6/4/13)

But I am talking about your acceptance on the replies rather than your asking of the question.

It has been said at least three times now, in three different ways. Perhaps it is beyond your ken?

Bottom line, you say your beer is good (and I believe that it is so because you have nothing to gain by lying) - why change? If the reason to change is that anther method appeals more then just do it (after researching that method fully first).


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## pommiebloke (6/4/13)

It's like I say to guys I know with $500 fishing rigs: the fish don't care how much your rod costs - they'll take my bait all the same.

Likewise, it don't matter how much your brew rig costs.

Your $30 BIAB can be just as good as a $3500 Braumeister and as good as a custom BeerBelly $5000 3V system. You might not get as good efficiency/repeatability but doesn't mean your beer won't be just as good.


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## bum (6/4/13)

pommiebloke said:


> Your $30 BIAB can be just as good as a $3500 Braumeister and as good as a custom BeerBelly $5000 3V system. You might not get as good efficiency/repeatability but doesn't mean your beer won't be just as good.


But his enjoyment of the process will be different for each system.

Well worth investigating but not exclusively from the perspective of cost.


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## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

Change.. Without it the world would still be flat!!

I started on a coopers kit, I thought the beer I was making was good. Then I discovered hops, that made it better, then I moved to extract brewing, saf yeasts now to AG BIAB and wyeasts and Yeast starters?. Moved from bottles to kegs..

Much of it based on knowledge from this forum..

My reason for asking and exploring otherwise benign answers is out of a desire to find where the next improvement comes from.. 

With my current brew knowledge, skill and technique - will a change of brew equipment bring about an improvement?? Maybe, maybe not! Only took 12 posts and 40 mins for my understanding of this issue to improve to where my ability and disposition with respect to this particular object of knowledge is now sufficient to support intelligent behavior.


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## brettprevans (6/4/13)

If u can make 60L high grav beer in a $30 ag rig then its an easy answer. Ur not comparing apples with apples.


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## Crusty (6/4/13)

timmi9191 said:


> I dont claim to be the worlds best or most experienced brewer but my basic BIAB system produces beer I rate better than commercial brews and receives praise from family and friends. So I'm happy... Kind of...
> 
> I'm also a gadget fanatic which creates the dilemma of urges to build a complex brew set up..
> 
> But is it really worth it? Using same ingredients would the 2 systems make such vastly different beer that on your first sip you will say wow- that's clearly not BIAB it's 3v herms that cost over $1k??


I think you are asking a great question & there seems to be in all of us, a burning desire to improve on something that's probably not needed.
I went down this road & spent a shitload on a brewing sculpture that made absolutely, without a doubt, no better beer than I was making before.
I had some great gear, temperature controllers, a pump & some automation that I felt would surely make me better beer. The thing I didn't realize or quite understand at that point in time, was I was already making great beer & simply changing the equipment I brewed it on was nothing but a total waste of time & money. It's all about the recipe & how you brew, not so much what you brew on that makes the difference. If you feel you need to spend & purchase some shiny new stuff then all the power to you. If you think that you will be producing better beer than you are now just because you have fancier equipment, you'll be bitterly disappointed. I Biab in an electric urn, cheap, simple & hassle free. My PID Rims setup was more hands on & I wanted to simplify the process & turned to Biab. I expected, from what I read, my efficiency would suffer due to full volume mashing & not sparging, I'd never achieve clear wort to the boil kettle ( which at the time I thought was a must ) & would just have to accept that I'd just do the best I can with an entry level all grain technique. Several years on, I now know that Biab can & does produce fantastic beers. I no chill & achieve low 80%+ efficiency. As far as repeat ability goes, I have no problems at all replicating a beer recipe from last week, month or year resulting in the same efficiency, IBU & ABV.


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## bum (6/4/13)

timmi9191 said:


> Only took 12 posts and 40 mins for my understanding of this issue to improve to where my ability and disposition with respect to this particular object of knowledge is now sufficient to support intelligent behavior.


Trust me - this is temporary.

My advice (for what it is worth) is to look at what bits you like about your current process (not product) and what you don't like and see where changes could be made then work out which system fits.

For me, gravity feed 3v ended up being the best fit (swap a hose over every hour or so and the job is done). You might want to fiddle with a bunch of electric gizmoes, or you might want to avoid cleanign extra vessels, or whatever. No one can tell which is best for you.


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## Nick JD (6/4/13)

citymorgue2 said:


> If u can make 60L high grav beer in a $30 ag rig then its an easy answer. Ur not comparing apples with apples.


60L of high gravity beer in one batch? That's not homebrewing. That's a slow suicide.


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## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

Crusty - thank you. 
I'm removing the chrome edging from my brew bag as we speak.. Brew bling is now dead!!

Seriously though you've answered the questions based on practical experience. Couldn't ask for more, cheers!


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## bum (6/4/13)

You should be aware that he changes his system more than anyone and then says the last thing he swore was the best ever is actually poison.


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## timmi9191 (6/4/13)

Not biting.. 

But I'm eagerly awaiting crusty's retort...


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## Crusty (6/4/13)

bum said:


> You should be aware that he changes his system more than anyone and then says the last thing he swore was the best ever is actually poison.


There's shitloads more brewers on here that have changed their systems more than me dick head.
I started with 2V, went to 3V thinking it would make better beer & experience has proven otherwise.
I personally know five members that are on their 3rd or 4th rig so does it really matter?
He's asking a question whether different systems produce better beers or not. I think I'm qualified enough from my own experience to answer his questions.
No wonder you called yourself bum, stop being an arse.


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## rotten (6/4/13)

I went fishing today with family and friends. I had the 'so called' good rig, everyone else, 'kids', had the not so good rig. Guess who caught the keepers?? Not me. 

I'm 3V not that it matters. I enjoy every minute of it though.


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## bum (6/4/13)

rotten said:


> I enjoy every minute of it though.


This is what my second last point is getting at. This is the reason to brew.


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## Crusty (6/4/13)

rotten said:


> I went fishing today with family and friends. I had the 'so called' good rig, everyone else, 'kids', had the not so good rig. Guess who caught the keepers?? Not me.
> 
> I'm 3V not that it matters. I enjoy every minute of it though.


Totally agree.
As I pointed out in my post, I believe it's trying to nail the recipe for your system as opposed to what you're brewing on.
Biab, 2V, 3V, Herms, Rims, all produce exceptional results but you still need to know how to drive them.


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## pk.sax (7/4/13)

Actually, Crusty makes a good point.

Apart from that, answering objectively (taking from Bum's advice above), look at what you are trying to achieve. The micro process you are/aren't able to do right now and if it will make a difference to your beer. More equipment might make certain processes easier. Either way, try to keep it utalitarian. If it simplifies a process while at the same time not becoming a pain in the ass itself, probably worth looking into.

Sometimes, shortcuts in the wort production (biab) can lead to more processes later on, like larger yeast cake, cloudier brew. But that is also very subjective to yeast used, hops n all. For some beers it won't even be an issue. A 3v system basically ingrains a number of processes, if you understand them, make your wort more 'standard'. I.e., more predictable. It doesn't have to be expensive. I don't claim to know all there is to it, hardly that, but it did make experimenting with things a bit easier because the equipment was able to do handle a certain amount of variability with minimal tinkering. That said, biab is a bag, how much bloody tinkering does it take at all!

I more liken a multi vessel system to a lab, where every part of the process is more closely controlled so variation in one can be measured in the end process more easily. Biab is a dirty industrial sort of process where people who really knew what they were doing have condensed it into a simple to do low cost wort production system that if run within the parameters set for it will function as designed.

PS: anyone think I'm bagging anything here, gfy


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## angus_grant (7/4/13)

timmi9191 said:


> I hear you also, yob.. But mark webber won't go as fast in a Mazda 3 and even Maro Pierre White can't make strawberry jam without strawberries..


Mark Webber can probably drive around a track in a Mazda 3 faster than any one of us in his Red Bull F1 car. Because he has the underlying knowledge, skills, and experience to get a vehicle around a track quickly and an F1 car is so technologically advanced to us that it is not drivable. Part of my point is that *understanding*, knowledge, skills, and experience of the process of mashing, boiling, adding hops will result in a better result (almost) regardless of the equipment. Just read the manual. 

Where it becomes important is where the process gets slightly off track (power failure, temp incorrect, pump failure, etc, etc) and the experience to calculate this problem into the process and come up with a work-around. You can spend $30 on BIAB in Big W 20L stainless pots on electric cooktop and you are forced to understand the process to get things to work. Or you can spend $3500 on a Brau 50L which pings and beeps, controls the temp, and recirculates, etc, etc. If something goes wrong with the Brau 1/2 way through and you have no knowledge you are screwed.

So knowledge and experience is key. You can choose one system, produce good beer and never change because you fluked upon a combination that you understand and can work with. Or you can go from BIAB to 3V to 4V + herms to a 200L Brau back to $20 Big W pots, etc, etc and never get the understanding and knowledge to work out how a system that is placed before you can be used to produce decent beer.

You are producing beer that you think is better than commercial and your free-loading family and friends think it is great. Tinker with your current system and understand the process. Learn where gadgets can make your brew day more accurate/repeatable or easier. Don't add gadgets just cause you have an itch. I'm part of that crowd and we really don't need another guy crowding the space. 

Edit: just realised my post was quite long and I should qualify it by saying that I have only made 1 AG brew so I am extremely knowledgable and should be listened to. :chug: :blink:


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## beerdrinkingbob (7/4/13)

BIAB is better suited to 1.075 and below, all systems make great beer. As already pointed out the brewer is the difference and most of the skill is in yeast handling!!


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## QldKev (7/4/13)

But you have to have those $10,000 gold golf clubs if you are a good golfer!


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## Yob (7/4/13)

But you would still probably be able to make a good putt with a $2 op shop putter as you have the skill to adjust to the equipment...


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## Edak (7/4/13)

Now I want to play golf, thanks guys now Sunday is a write off...


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## Yob (7/4/13)

Let's go.. I'll pack the mini keg!!


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## WarmBeer (7/4/13)

Wort production is easy.

It is _beer_ production, the cold side, that is the difficult part. I reckon sanitation, temperature control and yeast health, in that descending order, make up ~80% of the quality of the finished product. Recipe 10%. Your system and procedures, and other miscellanea, the remnant.

Go with the equipment that suits you, that won't break your budget, and that will make you happy every time you brew with it. In the end, 2v, 3v, 3+v or BIAB, it doesn't add up to a hill of beans if you don't have your cold-side procedures right.


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## QldKev (7/4/13)

Yob said:


> But you would still probably be able to make a good putt with a $2 op shop putter as you have the skill to adjust to the equipment...



That's it, but as we get more into it we find we need the more blingy stuff.


Brewing is that hobby we didn't initially want to spend that $50 for a pot on, but now throw mega bucks at bits for. It's funny how the trend has also changed, back when I first signed up nearly all systems were simpler builds (not inferior) with a lot happy to reuse old 50L kegs. I was talking to a member about my new control enclosure I want to build, so I can get all my controllers in 1 box and also not need to stop and swap over extension cord during brewing. It will cost me another $100 at least to make, and it will not improve my beer at all. When you think I run my 3V a maximum of once a month there is no cost justification.

To answer the OP, I started with BIAB and I was happy with the quality of the beer. I only went 3V as I wanted a system I could brew less often, hence needed a bigger batch size. My 3V I can make a 112L batch, and since we separate the wort from the grain it is easier than manhandling so much grain. I do think my beer has improved with the heat exchanger on my 3V as I can repeat exact brew temperatures better and in-turn allow me to tweak recipes to suit me and my system. At the end of the day I drive a V8 Holden Commodore, you may have chosen a different car to suit your needs.


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## Bribie G (7/4/13)

My Arduino isn't hoisting my bag, maybe I'm programming it wrong.


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## beerdrinkingbob (7/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> My Arduino isn't hoisting my bag


What country is your partner from, strange name Arduino.....


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## spog (7/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> My Arduino isn't hoisting my bag, maybe I'm programming it wrong.


you need a fishing rod to hoist your bag,how much you spend on this ghetto bag hoist is up to you. :unsure: ..cheers..spog..


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## Degraves (7/4/13)

3v 2v 3v 4v 1v 3v 1v now Dan`s........ they all made good beer, now to get some fresh ingredients and fire up the stirplate.


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## whatwhat (7/4/13)

hahaha.


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## Adr_0 (7/4/13)

I think an STC1000 on a fridge makes heaps better beer than sitting the fermenter on the ground somewhere (or on top of hifi speakers, whatever you want). Not a 'vs' argument but an example of a dollar investment that absolutely makes better beer.

The rig investment stuff - and the reasons people upgrade so much - should be driven by function, and I guess a lot are. A 3V gravity system will work identically to a single-level RIMS system, but the RIMS has the advantage of bringing everything to a manageable height if you aren't setup with a good spot to put a HLT or you don't want to do your back in lugging something around.

Another great investment is putting graduations on your HLT, mash tun and boiler to see the actual levels you're operating at. Really, if you have enough information/measurements there's no reason you can't make consistently good beer. Automation should only come into if there is a functional limitation (e.g. not comfortable with 40L of hot water above your head, gas burner isn't consistent enough for recirc/decoction and you go to electric, etc.) or because it's a hobby and something you're proud of.  Automation breaks, too. 

Otherwise, there's no reason why a 438v gas turbine matrix PID control system makes any better beer, or even necessarily more consistent beer - if you have enough information (i.e. temperature, hydrometer, volume measurements, boiloff measurements, minimum drain levels in mash tun, etc.) and the knowledge to understand its significance.


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## Diggles (7/4/13)

I'm BIAB and it does the job fine, but moving to 3V in order to brew larger batches, being more time efficient. It will also let me experiment with different yeasts etc....furthering my understanding. Pick the gear that suits you, your knowledge, amount of effort your willing to put into it. Remember, it will take time whenever you make changes to get to know what's happening and get consistent results.

Bottom line...have fun, enjoy the process and good beer will follow.

Diggles


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## Bribie G (7/4/13)

I'd definitely avoid the STC 1000 - all you ever see are threads complaining about it, you don't see masses of FridgMate threads. Go FridgeMate.


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## Bribie G (7/4/13)

Also a knowledge of C++ is a must for seriously producing good beer, for example (thanks to RandyRob for the code)
Very nice declaration of variables there. 

/*

* HASP (Halfluck Automated Stir Plate)

* An open-source Stir plate for Arduino.

*

* (cc) by Rob Hart

*

* http://www.halfluck.com/automation

* http://creativecommons.org/license/cc-gpl

*

* v 0.1

*/



int PinStirplateMotor = 13; 



byte totalsteps = 2; 



byte stirplateontime = 10; //how long in minutes to run stir plate for

byte stirplateofftime = 50; //how long in minutes to wait before running the stir plate again



unsigned long previous_millis_value = 0; 



int step = 1; // start at step 1



unsigned long cumulativeSeconds = 0;



unsigned long startstep = 0; // placeholder for the starting of step time

unsigned long stopstep = 0; // placeholder for the stop of step time

unsigned long steptime = 0; // time in milliseconds required for this step

int timercalculated = 0; // has the timer for a timed step been set (initially = false)



void setup() // run once, when the sketch starts

{

pinMode(PinStirplateMotor, OUTPUT); // sets the digital pin as output



}



void loop() // start of actual sketch, run over and over again

{

//while (step<=totalsteps) // this will stop the code from restarting from here on in!

{

switch (step)

{

case 1:

digitalWrite(PinStirplateMotor, HIGH); 

if (!timercalculated) {

startstep = millis(); // start step clock, reads milliseconds from this moment

steptime = (unsigned long)stirplateontime*60*1000; // calculate the end of step from the configuired time "stirplateontime"

stopstep = startstep + steptime; // calculate the end of step from the configuired time "stirplateontime"

timercalculated = 1; // don't do again whilst in this step

}

if (millis()>=stopstep) { // time has finished

digitalWrite(PinStirplateMotor, LOW); // turn stir plate motor off

step++;

timercalculated=0; // next step's timer not yet calculated

}



break;

case 2:

 if (!timercalculated) {

startstep = millis(); // start step clock, reads milliseconds from this moment

steptime = (unsigned long)stirplateofftime*60*1000; // calculate the end of step from the configuired time "stirplateofftime"

stopstep = startstep + steptime; // calculate the end of step from the configuired time "stirplateofftime"

timercalculated = 1; // don't do again whilst in this step

}

if (millis()>=stopstep) { // time has finished

step++;

timercalculated=0; // next step's timer not yet calculated

}

break; 



}



while(millis() - previous_millis_value >= 1000)

{

cumulativeSeconds++;

previous_millis_value += 1000;

}



} 

}


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## Adr_0 (7/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> I'd definitely avoid the STC 1000 - all you ever see are threads complaining about it, you don't see masses of FridgMate threads. Go FridgeMate.


Sorry - I saw a heap of references to them and thought mine was the same. I have a Craftbrewer Tempmate that has been magic.


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## Edak (7/4/13)

Yob said:


> Let's go.. I'll pack the mini keg!!


That would be awesome, I just went to yarra bend driving range instead because I couldn't get onto a course.


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## RdeVjun (7/4/13)

An aspect often overlooked in comparative analyses is that much of the value of $30 Stovetop BIAB is in an accessible pilot method for novices: A cheap and simple demonstrator on readily- available equipment, but in terms of the end product it has just as much potential as other methods. Establishing a conventional multi- vessel all- grain method usually requires investment of some hundreds of dollars and no small risk in the modifications (eg. keggle mods), whereas $30 Stovetop BIAB is as simple as it gets with few or even zero modifications necessary at all.

Novice kit brewers can indeed knock out their first all- grain beer without firstly sourcing, paying for and then adapting equipment for the purpose, finally getting to mashing in anger and so on much later. If I wanted to increase the degree of control over, or the diversity and quality of my own beers quickly and without all that mucking about, I could say, over cornflakes this morning, decide to start brewing Stovetop BIAB, all the gear is quite commonly available from chain stores so source it all within hours, then following one of the many helpful guides start my first all- grain batch at lunchtime, wrap it all up around dinner and pitch the following morning. Obviously this is contingent on sourcing ingredients as well, all methods face this challenge however more LHBSes, even in regional centres, seem to be getting the picture regarding grain, hops and yeast.

With the method (or variations) knocking off gongs from club up to national level with monotonous regularity, there should be little doubt that with the cheapest and most basic equipment, development of the brewer's techniques, skills and understanding is really all that stands between ordinary swill and top shelf beers- thankfully a lot of that knowledge and the experiences have been written down and shared amongst us all. Brewing $30 Stovetop BIAB does indeed have limits, they are easily hit (eg. batch volume, spousie wanting the kitchen back etc), however by that point the real value of the method in training and development should have been realised.

My 2c, FWIW.


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## Bribie G (7/4/13)

I'm planning to get into BIAC

(brew in a cauldron)


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## Yob (7/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> I'd definitely avoid the STC 1000 - all you ever see are threads complaining about it, you don't see masses of FridgMate threads. Go FridgeMate.


really? :blink:

I see lots of threads about people not knowing how to wire them not about faulty units, maybe Ive just missed them.

I use one to control my HEX and have it calibrated to the mashmaster probe in the MT.. thing hasnt missed a beat in many many many brews.. 

that siad Ive always had a spare wired up just in case


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## manticle (7/4/13)

WarmBeer said:


> Wort production is easy.
> 
> It is _beer_ production, the cold side, that is the difficult part. I reckon sanitation, temperature control and yeast health, in that descending order, make up ~80% of the quality of the finished product. Recipe 10%. Your system and procedures, and other miscellanea, the remnant.
> 
> Go with the equipment that suits you, that won't break your budget, and that will make you happy every time you brew with it. In the end, 2v, 3v, 3+v or BIAB, it doesn't add up to a hill of beans if you don't have your cold-side procedures right.


To an extent but mash at 70 degrees, put 1 kg of crystal in a 20 L batch or use an inappropriate yeast or the wrong hop at the wrong point and all the cold side in the world won't make your beer good.

Everything you do is important but you can produce quality wort with any of the systems as long as you understand the principles at work, including recipe development, mashing processes and the system you are using. You can then use that quality wort to make quality beer, so long as you understand that side of things as well.


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## Radroo (29/4/13)

Glad I read this post... as the advice is good and has helped me 

I BIAB and have been getting Ok results from the 8 or 9 brews and had convinced myself my rig was holding back from making excellent brews!
I like gadgets and have HB friends with 3v HERMS rigs and create fantastic quality beer.
But on reflection, they all have a solid understanding brewing/ingredients and it is their KNOWLEDGE that is making their beer fantastic... not their equipment.

Agree that some $$ investment in quality equipment does help make better beer - temp controller, reliable thermometer are examples.

Think I have convinced myself to keep with BIAB and my wallet in my pocket, at least until i feel like I have further edumacated myself on home brewing :beerbang:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/4/13)

manticle said:


> To an extent but mash at 70 degrees, put 1 kg of crystal in a 20 L batch or use an inappropriate yeast or the wrong hop at the wrong point and all the cold side in the world won't make your beer good.


Or emergency repairs to the water mains during the middle of brewing a barleywine. Hoping no sparge & panicked no 60 minute addition meaning a no chill late addition with a 'clean' hop won't ruin what looked like being a good beer.

Moral of the story - no matter what brewing equipment you have, the odd disaster brew day is still inevitable. I had hoped to have drinkable beer in my new digs before it happened.

It makes you appreciate the other 95% of brewdays that go well.


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