# 3rd Party Request for Hop Rhizomes in Bulk (?)



## antiphile (14/7/15)

Good afternoon all.

I know nothing (as Sgt Schultz said), but there was a request recently on the Coopers Forum (link here) for someone who was after rhizomes. I'm not offering to be a intermediary, but thought I'd draw attention to it if anyone is interested in supplying some as requested.

Cheers
Phil


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## Whiteferret (14/7/15)

Dwarf cluster? never heard of it.


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## Yob (14/7/15)

Cough... 

Sigh.


Look up the ADHA website


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## hoppy2B (14/7/15)

You have often stated that we don't have dwarf hops in Australia Yob. I wonder if dwarf hops are just tetraploids. :huh: That would mean that we actually do have dwarf hops in Australia because we do have tetraploids here.


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## Yob (14/7/15)

Not engaging.. Please look up the ADHA website for info. I dint believe any cluster is listed.

It's not the first time I've mentioned this.

It's irresponsible for you to pass off these as a dwarf variety.


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## Whiteferret (14/7/15)

Damnit, no ninja smilies on mobile


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## hoppy2B (14/7/15)

It is only a name Yob. When I put it under the microscope and verify that it is a tetraploid, I'll be sure to let you know. It has morphological differences when compared to Australian Cluster. It is not a stunted Australian Cluster and it is somewhat irresponsible to suggest it is if that is what you are inferring.

The point I am trying to make is that it probably has a dwarf habit due to it being tetraploid. I'm also wondering if dwarf hops are tetraploids. It would be quite easy to breed tetraploids and create new dwarf varieties.


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## Yob (14/7/15)

I put it to ypu that YAFOS 

by all means, prove it to me, until that point I reserve the right to remain super sceptical.


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## hoppy2B (14/7/15)

These photos show the leaves of the variety that I call Dwarf Cluster. This variety typically has leaves with lots of lobes. I thought it might have been an american wild hop influence that caused the many lobe habit.


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## hoppy2B (14/7/15)

This photo is of a leaf from an 'Australian' Cluster. I have never seen a leaf with more than three lobes on this variety, and I obtained rhizome from more than one source for this variety.


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## Yob (14/7/15)

Hardly quantifiable evidence though is it?


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## hoppy2B (14/7/15)

Nah you're right, the only way to prove it is a tetraploid is to put it under the microscope. The theory I have is that the doubling of chromosomes has caused an increase in the number of leaf lobes. There is data suggesting that tetraploids can have a reduction in internode length.


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## Mr B (14/7/15)

In the spirit of Breaking Bad

"We need some Science Bitches"

or

"We need some Science, Bitches"

I'm good either way, as I like hops, science, and the other one (I cant say it again....).


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## Yob (14/7/15)

I'd just be happy to stop the effing assumptions and spreading effing rumour of unsubstantiated waffle


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## panspermian (14/7/15)

Tetraploid just means 4 sets of chromosomes. I doubt there would be any noticeable trait to distinguish it.
Many plants are tetraploid. 

Humans are diploid.


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## Yob (15/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> Nah you're right, the only way to prove it is a tetraploid is to put it under the microscope. The theory I have is that the doubling of chromosomes has caused an increase in the number of leaf lobes. There is data suggesting that tetraploids can have a reduction in internode length.


Please provide links to this data. I could do my own search, but I want to read the same info that you have clearly well researched and see if the line can be drawn.


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

This was me btw....got 6kgs of Rhizomes today....Dwarf Cluster is a breed done by an SA grower....maybe...not sure who exactly it is. Anyways....the coops forum post basically says what Im after. Still probably need another 3-4kgs of something that crops heavy in SA we have a spring on the property so water is no problem at all!!

Cheers anyways I think Ill hang around here Coopers forum isnt what im into now in terms of brewing....or hops growing!!


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

Yob said:


> Cough...
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> ...


Australian Day Hospital Association Ltd?

The bloke who sold it to me HoppyB2 hasnt put it under a microscope but I will.....give me a couple of months though. Only got the rhizomes today...plus I was looking for a 'dwarf variety'...which is near on impossible to find in Australia since its a big US thing....I dunno I cant find much into on hops in SA before 1938...but I have a good book about the industry before bittering hops took over everything. Im a horticulturalist so everything is going to be documented from growth habits to flavours and aromas....and I was planning on getting some samples sent to Tassy to get them ID'd by the uni down there and put on the list...or at least they'll be able to tell me exactly what parents they come from! If I was a major noob do you think Id even be trying this kind of thing??? I grow plants for a living now....jsut dont have any space....


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## Yob (15/7/15)

Ha.. Yeah that's the one 

http://www.adha.us/varietals/azacca-adha-483

For example..


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## hoppy2B (15/7/15)

https://www.scienceopen.com/document/vid/5f4a5e85-f4a8-4ffe-b71a-ed87d24cb213;jsessionid=NzJej0HeYUEO9bn-1

I'm not sure if the above link will work - hopefully it does. I'll check it as soon as I post and if it doesn't work I'll delete.

I have it bookmarked and I normally click on the images and it goes to the main article. The article has a bit of a description on how to put hops under a microscope to test for polyploidy. It should be of interest to you if you are serious about breeding hops Yob.

Most of the traits described for tetraploid hops are applicable to the hops I call Dwarf Cluster. The Dwarf Cluster has thin bines, short internode length, notable aroma characteristics, fat cones etc. In the article there is a different leaf type from the one I described earlier in this thread but I don't expect results to be exactly the same for each sample one puts through the process of ploidy manipulation.

As stated earlier, the only way to be sure a hop plant is tetraploid is to subject it to the appropriate testing. I'll do that when I get enough time. I need to take my microscope apart and clean it and get some slides. Not sure when that will be. :blush:


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## hoppy2B (15/7/15)

Yes the link works, eureka.


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## hoppy2B (15/7/15)

See previous page.


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## hoppy2B (15/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> https://www.scienceopen.com/document/vid/5f4a5e85-f4a8-4ffe-b71a-ed87d24cb213;jsessionid=NzJej0HeYUEO9bn-1
> 
> I'm not sure if the above link will work - hopefully it does. I'll check it as soon as I post and if it doesn't work I'll delete.
> 
> ...


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> https://www.scienceopen.com/document/vid/5f4a5e85-f4a8-4ffe-b71a-ed87d24cb213;jsessionid=NzJej0HeYUEO9bn-1
> 
> I'm not sure if the above link will work - hopefully it does. I'll check it as soon as I post and if it doesn't work I'll delete.
> 
> ...


Yep that works....Book marked. Im just enjoying my Citra and Victoria Secret hopped Pale....Ill have a read when the baby has gone to sleep. My father knows the wife of the head brewer for West End back years ago. She did her PHd in the hops industry in SA when it exsisted. Im keen to reinvogor this old industry we need it. Beggars cant be choosers and I have to start somewhere....so some locally grown stock was key to my first year! Thanks to Hoppyb2 Im not sitting pretty...all nice and moist and in the fridge. Went up to scout the property a bit more today met the old owners so I now know what the pumps are doing and the spring is fed right passed the area I was planning on growing....on top of the hill will have to thin the canopy out a little but there are plenty of poles 'ready to go' with a couple of hrs on the saw!!

This is half....slippery and raining so didnt want to walk further south...but that perfect poles half there already...


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## Camo6 (15/7/15)

Stu Brew said:


> Australian Day Hospital Association Ltd?
> 
> The bloke who sold it to me HoppyB2 hasnt put it under a microscope but I will.....give me a couple of months though. Only got the rhizomes today...plus I was looking for a 'dwarf variety'...which is near on impossible to find in Australia since its a big US thing....I dunno I cant find much into on hops in SA before 1938...but I have a good book about the industry before bittering hops took over everything. Im a horticulturalist so everything is going to be documented from growth habits to flavours and aromas....and I was planning on getting some samples sent to Tassy to get them ID'd by the uni down there and put on the list...or at least they'll be able to tell me exactly what parents they come from! If I was a major noob do you think Id even be trying this kind of thing??? I grow plants for a living now....jsut dont have any space....


Since you're not a noob I imagine you're aware of the quarantine rules in Tasmania and would use the appropriate channels before sending samples?

Also, welcome to the forum. 6kg of rhizomes! That'll keep you busy.


As far as the extra lobes on leaves, I've found some my hops throw five lobers here and there, mainly in their early season growth I think. They still grow tall though. Maybe I have dwarf hops suffering some sort of identity crisis with a mild case of elephantiasis?


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

Yes was wondering about the quarantine but obviously Ill be contacting the Uni before I just send them samples in a wet zip lock back with plant matter in it :huh:

Some of it will be more test crops this season. The bulk quantity I have is of the dwarf cluster...so with any skill there will be a bit floating around for you guys to have a go at in a few months time! Thats only the piece I was planning on using for hops this season...there is a north west facing hill that wont get heaps of day light hours but also has a good canopy to work from. Im no expert but I have the skills to grow plants....Ive grown a bit of hops before. Plus Ive got all you guys to help!! Thanks for the welcome Camo6

I started up this too. Already looks promising...the stuff is in demand what can I say...I just hope I can grow it alright! B)

Not sure if link will work....this will keep you updated on my project Hops farming anyways. Hopefully it can get some like minds together and get something non Vic and Tassy going on!!

https://www.facebook.com/freshhopsaustralia


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## hoppy2B (15/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> As far as the extra lobes on leaves, I've found some my hops throw five lobers here and there, mainly in their early season growth I think. They still grow tall though. Maybe I have dwarf hops suffering some sort of identity crisis with a mild case of elephantiasis?


A lot of varieties throw 5 plus lobed leaves. With the Dwarf Cluster it is major trait.


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> A lot of varieties throw 5 plus lobed leaves. With the Dwarf Cluster it is major trait.


As far as Im aware leaf shape doesnt mean a whole lot in the plant world they'll change with different levels of nutrients in the soil, young leaves look different to old leaves. Venation is important for id to a point for some plants. Which I cant really pick up in those photos. The fingers and difference there of is just differnt growth habits from differnt breeds....that said that style of leaf on the dwarf cluster looks like its been bred to pick up more light and if its a dwarf. That looks to me like it was done by someone who knows what they're doing in terms of breeding good stocks together to make something special. I mean how many different types of hops are out there? Id say there would be thousands of leaf combinations....all from the same basic leaf. This stuff is so hard to find info on....but dont go beating each other up about leaf shape....its kinda a null point on the same species of plant especially....take eucalyptus for example.....1000s of different leaf shapes so many are similar and the way you tell the difference in that situation....is the flowers....colour and the size and shape of the little or big caps h34r:


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## Yob (15/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> A lot of varieties throw 5 plus lobed leaves. With the Dwarf Cluster it is major trait.


Proportedly and assumed with little evidence supporting the theory thus far...


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

Yob said:


> Proportedly and assumed with little evidence supporting the theory thus far...


Besides from the fact he has grown enough of them to supply me with 4kgs of Rhizomes of it today??? Science and horticulture almost dont mix....the botanists are a little slow to catch up sometimes....Its not the only variety hes grown....so I mean research yes....but old school hort research.....there are plenty of people out there that understand plants and like making beer....that DONT hang around on forums....Id like to remind you of this factor....I joined to get rhizomes of Hoppyb2 and he's helped me out a lot more than any of you nay sayers have so far. Why even argue....Im going to be growing the stuff...horticulture is a lot about patience.....an looks like im the research subject....I mean the hops rhizomes are.....Why are you having a hard time digesting the dwarf thing mate? I mean he's seen and grown the stuff....and you havnt.....are you against Australian grown hops? Or just prefer to get old stock from the US? Not realising our seasons are opposite to each other and Australia should be producing the best hops in the world...and allowing brewers in the US to have fresh hops in their non hops growing season?
....We're only miles behind NZ because of the commercial push thats been going on for the last 60 years....which is now changing....Why doubt....is there room there to get excited? I mean Im pretty excited just to show people how hard I fail or succeed.....so really its on my back anyways!! Im happy to do the hard yards....Hoppy doesnt seem like he'd yank someones chain for a joke....We did meet today and had a good chat about this stuff....It was a good price and it was SA stock. Thats exactly what I needed...wether its worth growing Ill know in a few months time. Ive still got a bit more coming in from another guy down that way. Old brewing lecutrer....so we will see what happens with it all wont we. Once its sent ot Tassy Ill be sure to update you on exactly what it is otherwise Im not judging it until I see proof its good or not. Welcome ot horticulture Hop To It.....


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## Yob (15/7/15)

Just because he grows them does not mean he had bred dwarf hops.. Has he cross pollinated?

This has been going for years mate, I'd be happy to see some real evidence on the subject..

Personally I grow mutated trippin Hops


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## BottloBill (15/7/15)

I will say this much.....Ellerslie hops Australia has been in the game since 1932 my friend and you are further behind than you think....just saying


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

Im really interested to hear about any soil PH, nutrient programs that have worked or failed for people at home or on their little patch. Thats what I really need to learn about atm and that info is near on impossible to find for South Australia....so if anyone has anythign to add then Id be happy to listen to that. I know a fair bit about the hills soil since Ive been running a hort business in the same area for the last 6+ years. I just dont know the ins and outs of exactly what hops needs....but since there is none Ill start out low nutrients and go from there....Real thing is ALL this research needs to be done from square one again. Since its all either been paid for by large companies or contracted by state governments a lot of its not really relevant to me or other small growers looking at doing what Im planning on. So any real world stuff on hops on what has and hasnt worked for growing hops in SA would be great!!


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## Stu Brew (15/7/15)

BottloBill said:


> I will say this much.....Ellerslie hops Australia has been in the game since 1932 my friend and you are further behind than you think....just saying


I'll let you in on a little secret.....Ellerslie hops grow less than 0.5% of the worlds crops....I could potentially be doing about 0.0024%....so in the numbers game I wont be that far off mate h34r:

Commercial breweries have screwed the hops industry to the point its at now....so Im not planning on ever dealing with them either....profits over people....not my style!!


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## Rocker1986 (15/7/15)

*Pulls up a chair and gets out the popcorn*...


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## BottloBill (15/7/15)

That's all well and good☺ point being where are you trying to head with it? If they have already been there (Cluster) then aren't you better off talking to them?? Besides 4kg you could potentially grow that in 2 years off 2 rhizomes yeah. I wish you luck I will follow you closely as I do with most others with endeavours from this forum.


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## BottloBill (15/7/15)

Rocker1986 said:


> *Pulls up a chair and gets out the popcorn*...


here have some maltesers to go with your popcorn


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## mofox1 (15/7/15)

Rocker1986 said:


> *Pulls up a chair and gets out the popcorn*...


Haha.. was going to do the exact same post last night, but I'd had a couple few pints jugs by then and figured I should probably let it slide.


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## Rocker1986 (15/7/15)

:lol: Other than that I'm not saying anything. I've had tangles with old mate in the past and it's like banging your head up against a brick wall. Pointless waste of time.


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## hoppy2B (16/7/15)

Dwarf Cluster has a different aroma to the ordinary Australian Cluster. They're both early varieties and both have compact cones. They look like different varieties, but some of the similarities between the two suggest that they may be the same variety, one of which is a tetraploid.

I think the problem with Yob is that he has decided that the Dwarf Cluster is retarded by disease or something - a decision he has made based on no ability to prove his decision, and then gone on to state it as an absolute fact. I've seen no evidence that it is diseased and noted a number of characteristics that indicate it may be a tetraploid. Besides, if it were simply stunted due to disease I doubt I'd be seeing the level of morphological difference between the Dwarf and Australian Cluster varieties.

For the record, 2 x 4 year old crowns of Dwarf Cluster produced just over 5 kg of rhizome. As I told Stu, you can bury bine at the start of the season and it will turn into rhizome. If you want millions of plants, tissue culture is a well established method of propagation in the commercial hop industry.


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## hoppy2B (16/7/15)

Yob said:


> Proportedly and assumed with little evidence supporting the theory thus far...


Dwarf Cluster leaves are noticeably different to all other varieties. I thought it may have been due to wild American hop genes. Wild American hops are noted as having leaves with many digits compared to Euro hops.


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## Stu Brew (16/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> Dwarf Cluster has a different aroma to the ordinary Australian Cluster. They're both early varieties and both have compact cones. They look like different varieties, but some of the similarities between the two suggest that they may be the same variety, one of which is a tetraploid.
> 
> I think the problem with Yob is that he has decided that the Dwarf Cluster is retarded by disease or something - a decision he has made based on no ability to prove his decision, and then gone on to state it as an absolute fact. I've seen no evidence that it is diseased and noted a number of characteristics that indicate it may be a tetraploid. Besides, if it were simply stunted due to disease I doubt I'd be seeing the level of morphological difference between the Dwarf and Australian Cluster varieties.
> 
> For the record, 2 x 4 year old crowns of Dwarf Cluster produced just over 5 kg of rhizome. As I told Stu, you can bury bine at the start of the season and it will turn into rhizome. If you want millions of plants, tissue culture is a well established method of propagation in the commercial hop industry.


I was planning on doing that as a method of propagation. I'll be setting up a hot house and a shade house for some fun and games. Ill make a fair bit doing annuals for some of my customers who spend an absolute packet on them. So it will be needed anyways. If they're diseased then they wont last long. I know how to identify both pests and diseased. They looked great honestly. Hang on Ill dig a photo up. Its all holding in the fridge atm. Ive found some amazing info on hops recently. So looks like Im going to be mulching as my fertiliser program. Some of hte things I have the possibility to do. A. Because Im in hte industry so I get trade prices on anything bulk I buy like wire, fertilisers, soil, mulch etc etc. B. Im small I dont have to worry about buying 500 tons of mulch for my 400 acres......

Looking into the bines, They will sprout roots from the hairs as all hairy viney plants do.....read up a bit on tomatoes...they are very similar in terms of their hairy stems. So it makes complete horticultural sense to suppress nothing but the main stems you're growing and constantly mulching through the growing season because the specific bines will actually throw out roots on the bines that are growing that season, making both growth and in time flowering both far stronger...and you're putting that energy into the actual bines instead of wasting it on the root system. So Im still learning....this is all a big learning project. That makes complete horticultural sense, mulching sounds like its going to be the key to awesome crops. Im pretty up on mulch as I live in Adelaide, and people spend a packet on water here without it on their gardens h34r:

See this is going to be same old....no one else with lots of Hort knowledge so I can generally disipher the BS on the internet for solid advice....the research continues...but damn if you're getting the popcorn out....why not have a little input?


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## antiphile (16/7/15)

OK. Rocker86 has convinced me and I spent the extra $2 for a seat in the Dress Circle.



> Because Im in hte industry so I get trade prices on anything bulk I buy like wire, fertilisers, soil, mulch etc etc. B. Im small I dont have to worry about buying 500 tons of mulch for my 400 acres......


Hmmm. From the original post on Tuesday on the other forum, the "property" has grown from a quarter acre to 400 acres. I'm guessing by Saturday it will be a quarter of Australia.


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## BottloBill (16/7/15)

antiphile said:


> OK. Rocker86 has convinced me and I spent the extra $2 for a seat in the Dress Circle.
> 
> 
> Hmmm. From the original post on Tuesday on the other forum, the "property" has grown from a quarter acre to 400 acres. I'm guessing by Saturday it will be a quarter of Australia.


it will be the only available quarter as the internationals own the rest


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## Rocker1986 (16/7/15)

Because my area of horticulture of turf management has nothing to do with growing hops aside from the fact that they are both plants. Or apparently isn't "real horticulture". It's more the to-ing and fro-ing of one party wanting empirical evidence before accepting something as fact (which is fair enough to be honest), and the other side throwing out what is essentially anecdotal evidence that from a scientific viewpoint doesn't hold much, if any, weight.

It's rather entertaining reading


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## hoppy2B (16/7/15)

antiphile said:


> OK. Rocker86 has convinced me and I spent the extra $2 for a seat in the Dress Circle.
> 
> 
> Hmmm. From the original post on Tuesday on the other forum, the "property" has grown from a quarter acre to 400 acres. I'm guessing by Saturday it will be a quarter of Australia.


He mentions that he is small and doesn't need to buy 500 tonnes.... because he doesn't have 400 acres, is the interpretation I think you're missing.


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## Mardoo (16/7/15)

I've been smoking crack again.


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## Camo6 (16/7/15)

Gotta admit, when I read the first handful of posts I was all like:


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## Yob (16/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> Gotta admit, when I read the first handful of posts I was all like:
> 
> 
> 
> nutty_professor_2-1.jpg


I was like

http://media.giphy.com/media/E4vIfoWCbdd3a/giphy.gif


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## Stu Brew (16/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> He mentions that he is small and doesn't need to buy 500 tonnes.... because he doesn't have 400 acres, is the interpretation I think you're missing.


Glad someone on here can actually read!


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## Stu Brew (16/7/15)

Rocker1986 said:


> Because my area of horticulture of turf management has nothing to do with growing hops aside from the fact that they are both plants. Or apparently isn't "real horticulture". It's more the to-ing and fro-ing of one party wanting empirical evidence before accepting something as fact (which is fair enough to be honest), and the other side throwing out what is essentially anecdotal evidence that from a scientific viewpoint doesn't hold much, if any, weight.
> 
> It's rather entertaining reading


Hahahah turfies....shit if you knew anyting about horticulture you'd realise that Hops grows a LOT like some varieties of turf....being that its a rhizome...like ya front lawn is....but I leave the turf to those who can push a mower....which is everyone. Keep em coming its a good laugh...contradicting yourself in the same sententce due to a lack of horticultural knowledge....classic....


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## Stu Brew (16/7/15)

So evidence I can grow stuff?? Corn in the backyard of my rental a few years back....got to about 7 and a half foot...was so damn good too....Here is a good one for you guys too....Corn ALSO a grass....but not a rhizome....whos confused yet?? I could explain how but would probably end up beating my head against a brick wall trying to explain how and why this stuff all relates. Honestly though...far better things to do with my time....jump on google and learn a bit I guess???


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## Rocker1986 (17/7/15)

See, there you go again with your high and mighty bullshit opinions, talking down to others like you're some kind of know it all. If you think maintaining the turf on a golf course or whatever is easy then you're a bigger idiot than I thought. Yeah, obviously some turf features rhizomes, some types also feature stolons, depends on the species. Growing it is a completely different field to growing hops. They need different soil conditions, it's a different method of growing and maintaining etc. Just because they both feature a rhizome as part of their growing structure doesn't mean they're the same type of plant, or grow the same way, but you know, if you knew anything about horticulture, you'd know that.

So what, you can grow shit? Big deal. I know corn is a grass. So are palms. From what I can read of the posts on the thread, the empirical evidence wanted wasn't about being able to grow anything, it was about whether a particular variety that is claimed to be being grown is actually what it's claimed to be. And that's a fair request in my mind.


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## Belgrave Brewer (17/7/15)

I'm keen to see a resolution to this issue as I bought a kilo of the Dwarf Cluster. Just so that I can put a label on it. Other than that, I only care about how good it is in a brew.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Call it Cluster **** and you should be OK..

It is extremely unlikely you bought Dwarf Cluster as it_* doesnt exist in Australia*_ or even in the states by the BREEDERS of Dwarf hops... or even in the UK under hedgerow... Its not listed as one of the varietals they even grow so how the **** it can be claimed to even *be here* is beyond me...

Unless H2B has had a breeding program he's kept quiet about... in which case Id like to know the parentage.. and if it IS so (which it isnt) how can he claim it to be Cluster... (Multiple parantage would mean a new breed and new name as can be seen happening on ADHA)

aah **** it... so many holes in the story its bleeding preposterous...


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## Belgrave Brewer (17/7/15)

Cluster **** it is...for now. I'll even kick in some money to have it tested.


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## BottloBill (17/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> These photos show the leaves of the variety that I call Dwarf Cluster. This variety typically has leaves with lots of lobes. I thought it might have been an american wild hop influence that caused the many lobe habit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I see what you done there. Re-quote THE VARIETY THAT *I CALL DWARF CLUSTER.....cunningly admitting its all in your head and that it is until science proves it.

Stu brew, if you are looking to TRY to put some kind of commercial label on the variety....under what banner does it fly??


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## antiphile (17/7/15)

> under what banner does it fly?


Hypothetical hops.

Hops to Suit Your Imagination.


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## BottloBill (17/7/15)

antiphile said:


> Hypothetical hops.
> 
> Hops to Suit Your Imagination.


they got mushrooms for that


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## antiphile (17/7/15)

Hmmm. I thought that was for:

HallucinoHops - Any flavour you want. (TM)


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## Camo6 (17/7/15)

Stu Brew said:


> So evidence I can grow stuff?? Corn in the backyard of my rental a few years back....got to about 7 and a half foot...was so damn good too....Here is a good one for you guys too....Corn ALSO a grass....but not a rhizome....whos confused yet?? I could explain how but would probably end up beating my head against a brick wall trying to explain how and why this stuff all relates. Honestly though...far better things to do with my time....jump on google and learn a bit I guess???


Cool, you grew a smattering of corn. I am impressed. With your condescending arrogance...not so much. You would've loved Silo_Ted.


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> Call it Cluster **** and you should be OK..
> 
> It is extremely unlikely you bought Dwarf Cluster as it_* doesnt exist in Australia*_ or even in the states by the BREEDERS of Dwarf hops... or even in the UK under hedgerow... Its not listed as one of the varietals they even grow so how the **** it can be claimed to even *be here* is beyond me...
> 
> ...


So where is this assumption coming from mate?? The fact you havnt seen it or the fact its not on either Ellerslie or HPA products lists???


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Dwarf hops are BRED and grown in the states (ADHA), I don't know of any hedgerow breeding program here for starters..

My assumptions are much more fact based than the counter statements


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> Cool, you grew a smattering of corn. I am impressed. With your condescending arrogance...not so much. You would've loved Silo_Ted.


Im not sure why you guys are grumpy?? Not enough hops in your beer??? I mean I did see a fair bit of banter going on about how I just cut lawns and know nothing about horticulture...now it seems I do Im an arrogant dick?? ....and not Im all high and mighty am I???

Damn you guys are all bipolar the way you're writing....what do you want? Info on growing hops or to continually try and say we cant do it because you live in a city and really have no idea about plants....brewing is easy stuff I havnt even gotten into showing my setup for that yet.....yes be afraid......growing plants is what Im actually really skilled at in life...you seemed to think I didnt know what I was talking about??? So whats the option? Prove what im saying like other people asked for....and as you poinnt out a 'smattering of corn' is all you can conceive I've grown in my backyard or any of my customers yards??

...so do I stop acting like a bipolar freak or you guys decide what you want to actually hear??? Not judging the photos...thinking there is a teeny tiny little backyard big enough to grow only a 'smattering of corn'....wow.....Im arrogant because I understand what Im talking about and you guys dont??? I really dont get this conversation....Im thikning anyone with no evidence of having any skills in hop growing should keep their noses out of it....because obviously explaining things to do with horticulture is being arrogant because no way this new guy can teach us anything??? Seriously....the internet is about learning.....catch up already....

Get into this haters  its all you..... https://youtu.be/XyOHJa5Vj5Y


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> Dwarf hops are BRED and grown in the states (ADHA), I don't know of any hedgerow breeding program here for starters..
> 
> My assumptions are much more fact based than the counter statements


So because of that....there is no way anyone else in the world knows how to breed the stuff??? Damn Im young and I guarantee you there are guys out there been doing this for the last 30 years and no one on any forum knows about it


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## antiphile (17/7/15)

Sorry Yob. It looks like this is a dispute that can only be decided on credibility grounds. On one side, yours, we only have your reputation with a huge amount of experience in hops vs the persuasive 2-day member who has won me over with his convincing argument that: "_it's not not not not not not and not._"

Maybe next time, Yob.

Edit added:


> ...so I stop acting like bipolar freaks


Actually, that sounds as though you're tending closer to schizophrenia than bipolar, Stu.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Stu Brew said:


> So because of that....there is no way anyone else in the world knows how to breed the stuff??? Damn Im young and I guarantee you there are guys out there been doing this for the last 30 years and no one on any forum knows about it


So where's the evidence? 

I'm certain if there was any H2B would have put it forward, by his own admission, it's speculation and assumptions 

Show me some facts.. Oh sorry, you can't..

I don't nee yet another argument on this, if you want to CALL them dwarf, go right ahead, doesn't make it so though


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

So plant cross breeding simply put. You for instance take the male flower of a certain variety and pollinate it with another variety. So there seems to be a lot of scope, for breeding hops....It does all depend on the male pollinating the female flower though. I forget but I think its Pacific Jade that was a random pollination of two different NZ varieties....So I mean the stuff will do that if stressed enough...like most annual plants with male and female versions. Trees are a bit different because even as deciduous they're a wood stem...not a semi hard wood like the hops is. Im here to discuss this with people...telling me Im not ellerslie or HPA isnt helping...I know plants I know what it takes to breed them...Ive been researching growing hops for the last 3 years....I have a pretty good memory so I dont write a whole lot down. I have 4kgs of rhizomes Yob....Ill make sure to document how much that grows first and second year on the Netting....and cost me a 3rd of what it would have cost buying varieties that grow and crop well in Tassy and Victoria well below the 36th....so yeah mate....As I mentioned in a previous post on this thread its all about patience...Im not sure why you're upset...you've neither invested in the hops rhizomes or expect to be growing them on any kind of commercial scale....thats what Im doing....I really dont see why people are getting upset? Isnt this the biggest opportunity to sit back and laugh at someone fail miserably like ya'll expect??? Also takes patience I guess.....


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

antiphile said:


> Sorry Yob. It looks like this is a dispute that can only be decided on credibility grounds. On one side, yours, we only have your reputation with a huge amount of experience in hops vs the persuasive 2-day member who has won me over with his convincing argument that: "_it's not not not not not not and not._"
> 
> Maybe next time, Yob.
> 
> ...


cheers missed that on the proof read....all sorted now thanks for pulling me up on that one.... guess you didnt read the actual context just looking to pick?? So how much hops does Yob grow anyways??? Im all keen on seeing his massive farm of it now?? Seems to know everything there is to know about it.....but no photos of the farm??? Makes me sad that kinda internet.....


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Oh FMD.. 

If it's been bred FROM a cluster, which I doubt, it's not ******* cluster.. It's a new breed.. Cluster is not known as a dwarf variety... 

I know about cross breeding mate.. I know plenty about it.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Stu Brew said:


> Makes me sad that kinda internet.....


Thankfully you aren't adding to it..


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> Oh FMD..
> 
> If it's been bred FROM a cluster, which I doubt, it's not ******* cluster.. It's a new breed.. Cluster is not known as a dwarf variety...
> 
> I know about cross breeding mate.. I know plenty about it.


Righto.....so the male plant was a cluster was it?? See you're hitting your head on a brick wall because you THINK you understand plant breeding.....ffs.....all the forum stats in the world and still NFI what you're on about.....Do you even know there is a new search engine and something called wikipedia?? You can probably learn a little about growing hops there...but if you dont even understand how plants work I wouldnt worry yourself Yob. There is NO reason 'it WAS from a ******* cluster'....but you're a plant breeding genius better yet hops breeding genius...since you have a farm yes?? Im still waiting for hte photos of your oast house....crops, varieties, growing systems.....???? Waiting.....I really am....I know you have a farm hidden in the apartment somewhere.....come on show me!!!!!


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## Rocker1986 (17/7/15)

I can probably shed some light on the arrogance and condescending nature of your post in reply to me. Let's look at the facts here. I'm asked why I have no input on the subject at hand. I say in all honesty that it is not an area of horticulture that I have very much knowledge in. To me, it would be stupid to try to offer any input on a subject that I'm not familiar with.

Instead of just accepting that and moving on, you choose to go on some stupid arrogant rant and belittle me and try to make yourself out to be better because my chosen field of expertise is different to yours. Looking after fine turf areas is more than just pushing a mower around. If it was that easy, everyone's front lawn would look like a bowling green. Granted, it's not rocket science, but neither is growing hops, or any other type of plant. The other point is, they don't teach us about every other aspect of horticulture in a greenkeeping apprenticeship because the knowledge isn't needed. It's a specific field related to turfgrass. It'd be like doing an apprenticeship as a motor mechanic and learning how to fix a pushbike.

So no, I don't give a flying **** about your ability to grow a patch of corn, or rig up some trellises to grow hop bines. Maybe I would have if you weren't such an arrogant jerk, but it's at least nice to see you haven't changed since 3 years ago.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Riiiighhhhhhhht...

Out.


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## Camo6 (17/7/15)

Hahaha! This is gold. I just don't know where to start.
Excuse me for labelling you as arrogant. It's obvious to me now that your question mark key is just sticky.


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

So its an impossibility that there was a *Tetraploid* (*Tetraploids* are grasses that have been modified to have twice the natural number of chromosomes (“diploids”). This process results in plants with larger leaves, tillers, and seeds, and fewer tillers.) Cluster father? Bred with something that grows smaller like a UK aroma variety...then seeds were kept??? See a grower will spot these things especially if been doing it at home for a couple of decades....possibly a background in botany would help you do these things. Keep trying Yob and co....thats a good name for a craft brewery actually h34r: Get on it....will go soon now I came up with the idea


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

I doubt any small time breeder would be interested in growing anything BAR what they know is great unless its a cross of two already great varieties....see interesting fact....humans worked this stuff out by watching plants not the other way around. Plants do these things naturally....Corn as I pulled up as an example....bred from crappy grass with a few juicy seeds on it...years and years of culturally stunting the plants and cross polination is whats led to the varieties and corn as we know it now....its all on youtube.....for an easy source of documentaries on plants....specifically grasses.....want me to dig one up?? Or have you got the prowess on the internet to find it?? Note I realise it took the indigenous cultures of the US 4000+ years.....but really we've advanced a bit on that in our plant knowledge....well the people in the know have


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Stu Brew said:


> Cluster father? Bred with something that grows smaller like a UK aroma variety...then seeds were kept???


So a cluster bred with something else can make a cluster... Neat trick..


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> So a cluster bred with something else can make a cluster... Neat trick..


Cluster breeds could be from a male or female donor.....but you know this....oh shit no you dont!! So informed....cluster male of female?? What you recon...you want me to mail you some to do what you like with....$50 inc express postage for 1 rhizome...and its yours....will be there monday morning...and you can do what you like with it....so still wiating on all the 'experts' to show us their hops farms......I dunno Im just not seeing it atm....I am hearing lots of talk....and seeing no walk.......but I can wait...Im a horticulturalist....and hort breeds patience.....so Ill wait until someoene has something to say besides pulling their own dick because they been brewing beer since the dawn of time.....I admit its only been about 6 years for me.....but why would I want to come onto a forum and brag about how good 'my' homebrew is......hops is what brewers need....I was under the assumption a 'real' brewer would be very interested in local hops.....but you know real brewers know beer and real horticulturalists know how to grow plants...so what does that point towards Yob?? Redeemable by posting up your hops farm Friday......


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## Yob (17/7/15)

So what you are saying, if I get this right... Is that a plant bred from the seed of a cluster male and another variety (given your example above) will be genetically identical to the cluster varietal?


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## Rocker1986 (17/7/15)

All I'm hearing is, "I'm a horticulturalist" a billion times over.


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> So what you are saying, if I get this right... Is that a plant bred from the seed of a cluster male and another variety (given your example above) will be genetically identical to the cluster varietal?


Sorry seed from a cluster male? Male plants do not have seeds.....


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Female flowers are pollinated from male flowers.....geeeeeezus....just STOP trying to pretend you know stuff about something you know NOTHING about Yob....seriously....you have NFI about plants....so just stop!!!


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Play the game man...


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

http://www.pollinator.ca/bestpractices/flower_anatomy.html


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Its not even hort 101...is like primary school 101.....Pollination is the first step in the process of sexual reproduction in plants. In pollination, a male pollen grain is transferred to the female part of a flower, germinates and fertilizes the ovule. All of these steps must occur for a seed to develop. Without pollination, the production of many of the seeds and fruits that we eat would not be possible.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Don't be so litteral, the seed from a crossed male and x other plant.. Answer the question not throw off with semantics.. 

I certainly hope you are drunk.. You're lucky I'm so amused by watching you self destruct.


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> So what you are saying, if I get this right... Is that a plant bred from the seed of a cluster male and another variety (given your example above) will be genetically identical to the cluster varietal?


The whole point of cross breeding is to pool the genetics of two plants that is beneficial to a crop....not come up with a clone.....seriously.....STOP........


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Yob said:


> Don't be so litteral, the seed from a crossed male and x other plant.. Answer the question not throw off with semantics..
> 
> I certainly hope you are drunk.. You're lucky I'm so amused by watching you self destruct.


The seed from a cross bred male??? MALE DONT PRODUCE SEEDS....THEY FERTILISE FEMALE FLOWERS....you know like your dick does....ffs....keep up....all im hearing is I know plants watch this.....weeeeeeeee off a cliff.....splat.....


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Wow does Yob run a brothel full of home brewers of something....seems he has a few bitches???


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## Stu Brew (17/7/15)

Males fertilise the female....plants humans....same farking thing....I hope its not to much for you guys to figure out....male cluster...female cluster.....what happens...as clone...no a genetic clone..yes....things can change with slightly different soil ph...but I wont go into PH seems we cant grasp how the whole male female cycle of the planet works.....


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## Yob (17/7/15)

Really, stop being a tosser. Answer the question.

Do you really not get what I'm driving at?

I'll lay it out clearer... As per your earlier example.

A male cluster + a female aroma variety (as per your example) .. Will the seed from that produce genetically identical cluster?


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## barls (17/7/15)

as amusing as this is play nice children and stop the personal attacks.


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## antiphile (17/7/15)

For a self designated expert, you either display an incredibly poor understanding or an incredibly sloppy use of generally accepted scientific terminology.



> So its an impossibility that there was a *Tetraploid* (*Tetraploids* are grasses that have been modified to have twice the natural number of chromosomes (“diploids”).


Tetraploid is merely a descriptive term that covers both prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells. It is *not* restricted to grasses, but covers mico-organisms (eg. bacteria and fungi) and the animal kingdom, as well as plants (including cotton, grains etc). Strictly speaking, tetraploidy can describe any cell though it is usually resrved for those that are normally diploid.



> ...humans worked this stuff out by watching plants not the other way around. Plants do these things naturally


I trust you're not suggesting plants *could have* seen polyploidy in humans. Yet humans equally "worked this stuff out" by watching salmon, developing human foetuses and embryos etc. And some of these changes do occur naturally; yet many others can be deliberately induced through environment change (like temperature or addition of colchinine etc)

I suggest before you further demonstrate your level of expertise, you at least gain a minimum understanding of simple terminology and its meaning.


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## Camo6 (17/7/15)

You're a horticulturist? Mate, by the structure of your posts I find it hard to believe you went high school let alone some form of higher education.
So far, all you've quoted can be gleaned from the search engines and websites you keep mentioning. The spacing between your posts and their content suggests you're doing exactly that. 
You're talking shit pure and simple. You want to start a hop farm on a 1/4 acre? My ******* backyard is a 1/4 acre! I've grow hops in them for a few years now, much like Yob, and while I don't profess to be an expert on them I reckon I've got more of a clue to growing them than you.
As amusing as this thread is, be sure to close the door on your way out.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

It's been fun, I've honestly enjoyed the ride, for that I'm thankful.


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## Rocker1986 (17/7/15)

It's not at all surprising to me to be honest, considering at one point he claimed that yeast is a plant. :lol:


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## GrumpyPaul (17/7/15)

Lets put this quest for evidence that a dwarf cluster exists. I have been researching this all night and I have found some undeniable evidence of a dwarf cluster.

Sorry Yob old mate as much as I'd like to support you - I have found evidence of a dwarf cluster.







Scroll down - it will be worth it.






























Here it is ............




















a "Dwarf Cluster".


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## BottloBill (17/7/15)

I was going to do it but thought it maybe to early Grumps


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## hoppy2B (17/7/15)

For Yob's benefit, I'm not suggesting it has been bred to be a dwarf. It may have been bred but I don't know if that is the case. 

There are 2 ways to get a tetraploid from a diploid. The first way is to treat some seeds with colchicine and after germination select plants with desirable traits. You've probably read about the process being used to increase the strength of cannabis. The second method is to take a piece of plant tissue and treat it with colchicine, grow it on and cut out any part of the growing plant that shows mutation, grow on that part and see it has desirable qualities.

If you had read the link I provided on tetraploids you would have noted that the tetraploids in that article had certain characteristics including shortened internode length. 

Dwarf Cluster may not have been deliberately 'bred' to be a dwarf but it may have been deliberately created to be a tetraploid.


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## Yob (17/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> You've probably read about the process being used to increase the strength of cannabis. .


read about... yessss.. read about :lol:


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## GrumpyPaul (17/7/15)

hoppy2B said:


> For Yob's benefit, I'm not suggesting it has been bred to be a dwarf. It *may have* been bred but* I don't know* if that is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I little bit far from a definitve post I would say....

If you need any help with the research side of things let me know.

I cant grow corn, although I might cut your grass for you, but I did find a verifiable "dwarf cluster"


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## pist (18/7/15)

Gotta love forums. If you want to know how to do something properly go speak to a brewer. Sure theres plenty of people like yob, manticle and quite a few others ive probably missed that know their shit, but ive gotta agree with yobs original point. If theres no evidence to back up what your on about then dont speculate. It only confuses others who do not have that knowledge as to what is right


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## hoppy2B (20/7/15)

I cant help it if you're easily confused Pist.


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## Stu Brew (12/9/15)

Sorry Lads....been a tad busy sorting out the super structure....hows everyones winter been....and now early spring....Im not reading all that shit..Thanks for the input though....those that say it cannot be done...well guess they try dis those that actually can!!! Cheers for those that have helped so far!!! 

https://www.facebook.com/freshhopsaustralia


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