# No Chill Whirpool



## beerbog (16/12/10)

Hi all,

Today I did my first no chill BIAB into a cube. ( Done a few chilled BIAB's )

The problem I had was waiting for the wort to settle down after the boil before I could whirlpool. It was at least an hour before all the convection currents stopped, then another 30 mins for the whirlpool. I am worried I may have left it too long to get it into the cube. My boil was fairly vigorous using a 4 ring burner.

Thanks. :beerbang:


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## Phoney (16/12/10)

Cube will more than likely be fine so long as the temp was >80C but your flavour and aroma additions are now all bitter additions. 

What was your recipe?


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## Acasta (16/12/10)

Gibbo1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Today I did my first no chill BIAB into a cube. ( Done a few chilled BIAB's )
> 
> ...


The point of no chill, is so that you don't have to worry about the time taken to chill. It may be a little bit more bitter as the kettle retains more heat. However, i wouldn't worry. If its too bitter, adjust your hop scheduled for next time.


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## NickB (16/12/10)

I might be doing it 'wrong', but I always just whirlpool vigorously as soon as I turn the gas off, and let settle for 15 or 20 mins. Get a nice cone in the centre of the pot, and very little hot break into the cube. 

Cheers


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## TidalPete (16/12/10)

> It was at least an hour before all the convection currents stopped,


Only no-chilled the once (with success) but TTBOMK you need to drain to the cube with all despatch & worry about the gunk later?
BribieG's knowledge would be invaluable to you here but unfortunately he's moved on to greener pastures.  
Perhaps others can confirm or deny my contribution to this thread?

TP


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## NickB (16/12/10)

Pete, I believe it's still good practice to whirlpool and keep as much of the hot break out of the cube as you can. Cold break will settle out in the cube, but I tip it all in anyway...


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## TidalPete (16/12/10)

NickB said:


> Pete, I believe it's still good practice to whirlpool and keep as much of the hot break out of the cube as you can. Cold break will settle out in the cube, but I tip it all in anyway...



Ah! Thank you Nick I stand corrected. :beer: 

TP


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## beerbog (16/12/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Cube will more than likely be fine so long as the temp was >80C but your flavour and aroma additions are now all bitter additions.
> 
> What was your recipe?



Don't know about > 80 deg, the recipe was Dr Smurto's Golden Ale. The 60 min hop was put in at 40m ins and the 20 min just after flame out to adjust for the bitterness. 

The temp is the thing that worries me, what is the lowest it can go to still pasteurise? :beerbang:


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## Phoney (16/12/10)

80. Hence my post! 

If your cube was sanitized it *should* be ok........ touching wood...... with a rabbits paw in your front pocket.... et al. Nah, when you throw it into your fermenter if it smells OK & tastes nice & sweet, it'll be fine. (just very bitter)




TidalPete said:


> BribieG's knowledge would be invaluable to you here but unfortunately he's moved on to greener pastures.



Has he? Since when? What pasture could possibly be greener than AHB?


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## beerbog (16/12/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> 80. Hence my post!
> 
> If your cube was sanitized it *should* be ok........ touching wood...... with a rabbits paw in your front pocket.... et al. Nah, when you throw it into your fermenter if it smells OK & tastes nice & sweet, it'll be fine. (just very bitter)
> 
> ...



The cube was hit with Starsan before seeing any liquid. :beerbang:


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## TidalPete (16/12/10)

> What pasture could possibly be greener than AHB?



Too some brewers it's not quite the forum it used to be. h34r: 

TP


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## Phoney (16/12/10)

TidalPete said:


> Too some brewers it's not quite the forum it used to be. h34r:
> 
> TP



Yeah I agree it aint the place it was when I joined 2 years ago, but there's still an enormous wealth of information here that cant really be found anywhere else....

(that is unless BribieG, Chappo, Butters and other MIA's have gone and started their own secret forum)


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## felten (16/12/10)

that's sad, he is a wealth of information, and not just on brewing


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## Cocko (16/12/10)

felten said:


> that's sad, he is a wealth of information, and not just on brewing




But he is old! h34r: 








**** me.....


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## under (16/12/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Cube will more than likely be fine so long as the temp was >80C but your flavour and aroma additions are now all bitter additions.
> 
> What was your recipe?




I dont get this. I really think this is a myth. Ive done 30+ no chills and I have not changed any hopping schedules and they have all been fine.


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## Cocko (16/12/10)

under said:


> I dont get this. I really think this is a myth. Ive done 30+ no chills and I have not changed any hopping schedules and they have all been fine.





A quoted post from Thirsty Boy about 'how long do hops keep bittering:

_The rate of isomerization drops off very quickly lower than 100.. but continues down to about 75 before it becomes basically insignificant. You have to remember though, that you have a long time at those sub boiling but still high temperatures. So what you miss out on in rate of change, you make up for in time for change to happen.

I have done a few experiments on this, both sensory and measuring IBUs in the lab; and my results suggest that adding Pellet hops loose into a cube (racked after whirlpool approx 90-95C) gives you a bitter quotient equivalent to adding the same amount of hops at 20-25 minutes from the end of the boil. Put em in a hop bag or tea ball, use flower hops or both... its going to be less, maybe significantly less. If you use a lot of IBUs worth of cube hops.. I suspect the utilization will also drop off. I have and know that others have tried; an all cube hop beer - calculated at 25mins equivalent... and the beer was under bitter. So if you were going to try that (it gives amazing flavour and aroma...) I would be thinking more along the lines of equal to 15mins in the boil.

I add pretty much any hop that isn't a straight bittering addition into the cube - this cuts the amount of bittering hop I need to use and gives really fantastic hop flavour plus a deep (although not intense) kettle hop aroma. IMO, you don't get the more volatile/resinous/perfumey aromas that you can get from a whirpool or hopback addition... the prolonged heat changes those compounds. 

I don't think you can replicate kettle hopping with dry hopping - they are different. So when I want that hopback/whirlpool type aroma, I find that a hop tea, added at 2/3rds attenuation does the trick. I add the hops to a coffee plunger, give them 1 minute contact with 500ml of boiling water - plunge and tip the water into the fermenter - then I add another 500ml of boiling water and give them 3-5 mins contact, plunge and tip.

The reasons for this method are - To emulate a hopback via

Actual contact with hot liquid
But short contact followed very quickly by rapid cooling.

So the Terpene fractions of the hop oils have a chance to interact with the heat and oxidise a bit, but the hydrocarbons have minimal (but some) chance to volatilize.

I add at 2/3rds through fermentation so that neither contact with the yeast nor C02 stripping has too much of a chance to drive off the aroma I went to so much trouble to make... but so there is a little of both of those things during the last part of active fermentation... which tends to smooth out any harsh or grassy characteristics. You could add the tea at the very end of fermentation.. but I would go for a longer steep time on the hops to smooth it out a bit, this would mean more hops to get the same level of aroma compounds in the beer. Or just cold conditioning the beer for an extra week or two._


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## manticle (16/12/10)

TidalPete said:


> Ah! Thank you Nick I stand corrected. :beer:
> 
> TP


My experience of No chill (so not scientific but done a few without issue) involves letting the convection currents settle, then whirlpooling, then allowing to settle agian, then draining to cube

My unscientific take on this is that the wort will remain above pasteurisation temps during this time. Presuming I've been clean and sanitary with the hose and cube (and I am) and presuming I squeeze the air out properly (and I do) I should be no more risky that letting an open kettle chill over an hour with an immersion chiller.


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## Goofinder (16/12/10)

I whirlpool as soon as I turn off the heat, let it sit for 10 minutes and drain into the cube. The wort is pretty much stationary by that point.

I do boil in an urn though and I reckon my boil is on the softer side of rolling.


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## felten (17/12/10)

My brew stand consists of a 3 ring mounted on a steel frame which takes quite a while to cool down. I can see large wafts of break coming up from the trub cone while draining if I whirlpool too early, and since it doesn't matter if it sits in the pot for 40 mins instead of 10 mins, I'll let the convection slow down and then WP and rest. (that's when I remember a WP anyway)


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## Josh (17/12/10)

I sit my kettle on a wet towel and whirlpool virtually as soon as I turn the kettle off. Then I let it sit for 5-20 minutes depending on how much clean up I have to do. Then rack to my cube.


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## Steve (17/12/10)

NickB said:


> I might be doing it 'wrong', but I always just whirlpool vigorously as soon as I turn the gas off, and let settle for 15 or 20 mins. Get a nice cone in the centre of the pot, and very little hot break into the cube.
> 
> Cheers




me too


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## mje1980 (17/12/10)

under said:


> I dont get this. I really think this is a myth. Ive done 30+ no chills and I have not changed any hopping schedules and they have all been fine.




Don't bother mate, let them over complicate a simple technique.


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## argon (17/12/10)

under said:


> I dont get this. I really think this is a myth. Ive done 30+ no chills and I have not changed any hopping schedules and they have all been fine.



Each to their own really... and often depends on beer style and hops used. In my experience Amarillo as an example tends to need dialing back when going no chill. Whereas Styrian or some other lower alpha tends to be just fine


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## MarkBastard (17/12/10)

No chilling without modification on APA's and IPA's I've had no luck with, though to be honest I am finding now that cube hopping plus dry hopping in the keg suits me just fine, and everything else is a pain.


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## Steve (17/12/10)

argon said:


> Amarillo as an example tends to need dialing back




BLASPHEMER!!!! ban him from this forum :lol: 

FWIW I dont adjust hop schedules either when no chilling.


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## under (17/12/10)

I agree slightly there. But saying that, heres my results.

I recently did Ross's Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale. Here was my recipe -

Recipe: 32 - Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale
Brewer: Dazza
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Special/Best/Premium Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.70 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 9.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (5Grain 91.84 % 
0.40 kg Wheat, Torrified (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBCGrain  8.16 % 
12.50 gm Nelson Sauvin [12.60 %] (80 min) Hops 17.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [12.60 %] (20 min) Hops 12.3 IBU 
15.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [12.60 %] (5 min) Hops 4.1 IBU 
26.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [12.60 %] (Cube Hop) Hops - 

With the cube hop addition calculated as a 0 min addition I get 34.3 Ibus (as per recipe). With the cube hop addition calculated as a 20min addition I get 55.6 Ibus. Then you guys are saying the 5min addition would be like a 10-15min addition totalling over 60ibus. Thats almost double the original IBU's. And I can say this beer is nowhere near 60+ Ibu's. Swill drinkers are loving it. And I have also had Mark try it. I believe its bang on the 34 Ibus. Anyway each to their own. Debate over.


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## under (17/12/10)

Steve said:


> BLASPHEMER!!!! ban him from this forum :lol:
> 
> FWIW I dont adjust hop schedules either when no chilling.



Noice!!!


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## bum (17/12/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> No chilling without modification on APA's and IPA's I've had no luck with, though to be honest I am finding now that cube hopping plus dry hopping in the keg suits me just fine, and everything else is a pain.


I agree with all of this (except the keg thing because I bottle so I wouldn't know). Cube hopping works a treat and I've just done my first experiment with doing an AIPA without changing the hoping schedule and it is really lacking in the aroma stakes and even the flavour is a little muted considering the hopping rates.

American styles really do have me looking at getting a plate chiller.


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## husky (17/12/10)

under said:


> I agree slightly there. But saying that, heres my results.
> 
> I recently did Ross's Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale. Here was my recipe -
> 
> ...





I recently put down the same recipe and did not adjust any addition times. I was very worried at first as all the fermenter samples were very bitter(up there with the most bitter ones I have made) however after bottling and conditioning for a week there was no noticable difference from an old extract recipe I did with the same hop schedule(was cooled instantly as it was a partial boil).
This was a hot summer day and took 12 hrs just to lower to 36 degrees. 
I guess you need to run the same recipe with and without a chiller to see if the difference affects the results in a was that youre not happy with.
Great drop by the way!


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## MarkBastard (17/12/10)

under, so you're saying in your opinion the cube adjustments to IBU are a myth?

I don't disagree with that, I don't really know enough either way to say, but your example is certainly a good one.

But one thing I know for sure in my setup is that you do need to adjust things if you want late hop characteristics in your beer. Especially aroma. Cube hopping is good for flavour and a bit of aroma but you can't make a beer where you can smell the hops in the glass from more than a meter away, put it that way. With dry hopping you can though and I happen to like the 'grassiness' of dry hopping (never tasted grass ever, just resiny goodness) so I'm okay with it.

If my tap water was cool enough to chill wort properly I'd for sure own a plate chiller though.


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## bear09 (17/12/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Cube will more than likely be fine so long as the temp was >80C but your flavour and aroma additions are now all bitter additions.
> 
> What was your recipe?



Isnt it the motion in a rolling boil the creates (obviously the heat as well otherwise we could just stir hops in for bitterness) a lot of the bitterness?


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## NickB (17/12/10)

+3

Dont generally adjust for no chill, but have taken to chilling my heavily hopped beers


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## argon (17/12/10)

bear09 said:


> Isnt it the motion in a rolling boil the creates (obviously the heat as well otherwise we could just stir hops in for bitterness) a lot of the bitterness?




Have another read of this post. The motion of the boil has very little to do with isomerisation.


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## under (17/12/10)

NickB said:


> +3
> 
> Dont generally adjust for no chill, but have taken to chilling my heavily hopped beers



I can see the point in regards to heavily hopped beers.


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## beerbog (17/12/10)

For those that hot whirlpool just off the boil, how long do you normally have to wait?

I just found yesterday I had to wait nearly an hour before all the eddies died down. Should I have waited that long or done it sooner and just cube the not fully cleared wort? Thanks. :beerbang:


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## manticle (17/12/10)

I wait about 20 minutes.


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## felten (17/12/10)

I made a union jack clone using the following schedule (plus another 176g in dry hops), it came out quite harsh. I haven't rebrewed it yet but when I do I'll be trying a different schedule to see if there's a difference. The bittering addition was supposed to be a single high alpha hop ie. warrior. But I had to substitute for what I had on hand.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
26.00 gm Simcoe [12.20%] (90 min) Hops 33.5 IBU
10.00 gm Centennial [10.50%] (90 min) Hops 11.1 IBU

24.50 gm Centennial [7.70%] (20 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
23.00 gm Cascade [5.40%] (20 min) Hops 7.4 IBU

52.00 gm Cascade [7.00%] (0 min)
52.00 gm Centennial [10.50%] (0 min)


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## argon (17/12/10)

manticle said:


> I wait about 20 minutes.



20minutes for me too... lid on and all that. Gives me enough time to pack most stuff away. I try and make it so i can whirlpool, drain to cube, hose out the kettle and all done.


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## beerbog (17/12/10)

argon said:


> 20minutes for me too... lid on and all that. Gives me enough time to pack most stuff away. I try and make it so i can whirlpool, drain to cube, hose out the kettle and all done.



What sort of burner? I use a big arse 4 ring on a vigorous boil. :beerbang:


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## argon (17/12/10)

Gibbo1 said:


> What sort of burner? I use a big arse 4 ring on a vigorous boil. :beerbang:




Rambo




I can get a very vigourous boil going and the bottom of the keggle is usually glowing red when it's on full blast. I don't sit the keggle right on top of the burner. The burner sits inside a slotted angle rig about 100mm or so below the bottom of the keggle. I get a pretty successful trub cone going... so it works for me


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## beerbog (17/12/10)

Argon, do you find you have heaps of convection still going on after 20 mins waiting? If so does it play with your whirlpool?

Thanks. :beerbang:


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## manticle (17/12/10)

Hi Gibbo. My burner is 4 ring mongolian. I find that the convection currents have subsided considerably after 20 minutes. Occasionally I'll leave it up to another 10 if I still think thy're moving too much. There is a very small amount of movement when I whirlpool but it's not much.

My whirlpool gets a good rapid motion going so it actually does look like a whirlpool rather than a gentle stir. I leave this for a bit and get good trub formation which stays in the centre away from the sides.


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## argon (17/12/10)

Gibbo1 said:


> Argon, do you find you have heaps of convection still going on after 20 mins waiting? If so does it play with your whirlpool?
> 
> Thanks. :beerbang:



what manticle said

edit: the rambo doesn't hold all that much heat after the thing's off... i'd say it'd be different with a 4 ring burner... being cast iron and pretty damn heavy, would be a decent thermal mass


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## beerbog (17/12/10)

manticle said:


> Hi Gibbo. My burner is 4 ring mongolian. I find that the convection currents have subsided considerably after 20 minutes. Occasionally I'll leave it up to another 10 if I still think thy're moving too much. There is a very small amount of movement when I whirlpool but it's not much.
> 
> My whirlpool gets a good rapid motion going so it actually does look like a whirlpool rather than a gentle stir. I leave this for a bit and get good trub formation which stays in the centre away from the sides.



Thanks guys, Manticle do you have HSA problems giving it a really good stir? :beerbang:

P.S I took the keggle off the burner to get it away from the heat but just seemed to retain so much. Mind you 
i waited until it was pretty much still, not a small amount of movement as Manticle quoted. :beerbang:


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## felten (17/12/10)

I use the manticle ala fents method for WPing as well and it leaves a great trub cone, you have to slow down your siphon flow when you reach the top of the cone though, otherwise it won't stay intact.

I find my 3 ring cools down within 20-30 mins, but my brewstand is still extremely hot, probably because its still in contact with the kettle.


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## manticle (17/12/10)

None that I've noticed. I start the whirlpool gently around the outer edge then increase speed and bring it closer to centre. There is minor splashing but not loads and I try and minimise it. I keep the spoon straight and you can see the motion will actually pull trub to the bottom. I'm not sure if it's worth doing at all if you don't get this effect.

The method was shown to me by Fents who also brews with Kooinda so I figure he knows his stuff - certainly gives me much better cone formation than the way I used to do it.


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## beerbog (17/12/10)

manticle said:


> None that I've noticed. I start the whirlpool gently around the outer edge then increase speed and bring it closer to centre. There is minor splashing but not loads and I try and minimise it. I keep the spoon straight and you can see the motion will actually pull trub to the bottom. I'm not sure if it's worth doing at all if you don't get this effect.
> 
> The method was shown to me by Fents who also brews with Kooinda so I figure he knows his stuff - certainly gives me much better cone formation than the way I used to do it.



Thanks guys, I'll give it a whirl..... pardon the pun!!!! :beerbang:


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## Thirsty Boy (17/12/10)

if you dont notice a difference to your bitterness when no-chilling - why would you change? BUT - the thing is, a lot of people did notice a difference. So a number of people did some work and some tests and had a crack at explaining the difference and quantifying it to an extent.

There is a difference - I have had chilled and no chilled beers tested in the lab to determine IBUs. Whether that difference is perceptible or important to you... different matter

You are unlikely to see much of a difference in beers without significant late hopping - and unlikely to see it even then if you are late hopping with anything but fairly high alpha hops. But bung a heap of late high alpha hops in to your kettle and there will be a change, you dont even need to put them into or let them get into your cube. There is a change.

If you are sensible - you will brew the beer with no changes to the schedule and see how it turns out - over bitter?? well, now you have an explanation and a suggested fix ... not over bitter?? Then you don't need to do anything at all.

As lovely as it is to not over complicate things - that doesn't give jack sprat of assistance to people who are actually experiencing a problem does it?


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## mje1980 (17/12/10)

The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness. 

Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem". 

Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.


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## Dazza_devil (17/12/10)

mje1980 said:


> The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??,



Makes sense to me, less hops and same result for bitterness.
Perhaps just dry-hopping in the fermenter or cube could make up for the loss of aroma.


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## felten (17/12/10)

mje1980 said:


> The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.
> 
> Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".
> 
> Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.


This has been covered before, but it's not just about the bitterness but the changed aroma or lack of aroma that is affected by nochill. And that is why people try to make changes by using a french press, or cube hopping. Sure if you don't find a difference and don't care, great. But some people do and aren't really phased by trying different things to change it.

Seriously, french pressing and cube hopping is not complicated at all.


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## big78sam (17/12/10)

mje1980 said:


> The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.
> 
> Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".
> 
> Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.



+1 for Felten's comment. It's not just about IBUs, if it was we'd all just do a 60 minute addition and leave it at that. The no chill CAN affect hop aroma and flavour. That's what I'm most concerned about. I don't think I would notice a 5 IBU difference


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## Cocko (17/12/10)

Should look like this IMU:









Oh god, I have gone all BribieG posting this photo again!  I must wrap it in a doona...


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## manticle (17/12/10)

Pretty much what I'm talking about Cocko.


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## Thirsty Boy (18/12/10)

mje1980 said:


> The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.
> 
> Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".
> 
> Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.



So - how do you calculate that then? When different amounts of bittering are coming from different parts of the boil? The amount of IBUs coming from your 60min or greater additions, is going to remain largely unchanged from a chilled to a no-chilled brew - but the IBU component from the later hops is going to be changed.

None of the formulas will do that for you - you have to make your "own" formula. And thats what I have been trying to say people might try to do - not actually move their hop additions to a different time - but to calculate them as though they were at a different time. Exactly what you are saying! .. but trying to help quantify how they might be able to calculate an appropriate reduction and/or anticipate how much more bitter the beer will turn out.

Example (calculations using Rager in pro-mash)

25L batch of a nice galaxy pale ale. Chilled "normally"

10g of magnum pellets (14%AA) @ 90mins
40g if Galaxy Pellets (14.5%AA) @ 5mins

and that calculates out at a nice pale ale bitterness of 33IBU

NOW - a no chill batch hopped in the same way. With the assumption that late hops give a bitterness as though they had been boiled for 15 mins longer.

so you calculate as though your additions were...

10g of magnum @ 90mins - because at 90 mins they are as utilised as they are going to get and the bitterness from 90min hops wont change
40g of Galaxy @ 20mins

and now it calculates out to 45.9IBU. 

So what do you do?? You don't want to drop your late addition down because you want the flavour and aroma, so you drop your bittering addition down to compensate and you wind up with.

4g of magnum @ 90min
40g of galaxy @ 5mins

calculates to 33.8IBU and pretty close to your original target. So - exactly what you said, but with a little more "quantification" attached. Nothing to it - change your late additions in the software but not in real life - to 15mins earlier than they were before - and tweak down the IBUs from your bittering additions.

Of course, you can see if you turn that 40g of galaxy at 14.5% alpha into 40g of hallertau at 3.0% alpha and re-do the scenario - that it really only matters with high IBU hops added late. The calculations with the hallertau are that no-chilling turns a 23.3 IBU beer into a 26.5IBU beer, and its very unlikely that you could taste the difference.

Me personally - Mostly I don't add any hops at all to my kettle apart from bittering hops. I add all my post 60min hops directly to the cube (loose) and calculate them as though they were 20min additions. For me that fixes both the "no chill ruins hop aroma" & the "no chill makes my beer too bitter" problem in one action. My beers are as bitter as I expect them to be and with perfectly nice hop aroma. Transitioning from chilled to no-chilled batches - they weren't.


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## mje1980 (18/12/10)

Fair point thirsty boy. I save high AA hops for the boil, and mostly low alpha for late so i don't think it makes a huge difference in that case as you have shown. The 10 min APA i did i used 50g each of cascade and columbus, for a 20 litre batch and it was fine, so my "normal" hopped beers are fine also. 

I just calc as i used to when chilling.

Yet to try cube hopping, but will give it a go soon.


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## globe (5/2/11)

Hey does anyone know of any american home brew stores?
trying to take advantage of the aussie/dollar market at the moment.
All the ones I know only ship within the us.

Cheers


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## globe (5/2/11)

Hey does anyone know of any american home brew stores?
trying to take advantage of the aussie/dollar market at the moment.
All the ones I know only ship within the us.

Cheers


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## globe (5/2/11)

appollogies about my typing....
im after an immersion chiller from the us does anyone
know of a home brew store in the us that ships to oz.

cheers
Parko


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## insane_rosenberg (5/2/11)

Hey globalbrewing,

Your totally off topic posting has revived an interesting thread! (I don't know the answer to your question, I suggest you search for a relevant thread or start your own new thread)

I don't worry about adjusting my late addition because I use the method in the following thread:
Late Hopping And Nochilling It Can Be Done!

Works a treat!


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## matthendry (6/2/11)

globalbrewing said:


> appollogies about my typing....
> im after an immersion chiller from the us does anyone
> know of a home brew store in the us that ships to oz.
> 
> ...


Morebeer ship international and they have some of the best wort chillers on the market .

http://morebeer.com/search/102202/beerwine...r/Wort_Chillers


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## beerdrinkingbob (6/2/11)

Cocko said:


> Should look like this IMU:
> 
> View attachment 42834
> 
> ...




Cocko that is an impressive bit of whirl pooling :beerbang: , you use a spoon or a pump?


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## globe (6/2/11)

Matt Hendry thanks a heap.
Have you bought anything from them was the shipping 
time reasonable?

Parko


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