# Users Of Polyclar



## andmat (4/5/11)

hi guys

i am new to using polyclar and i am are not sure what temp the water should be to mix the polyclar with, the craftbrew site said to use freshly boiled water. not sure if
i should cool it before mixing or mix it hot.

cheers
andrew


----------



## felten (4/5/11)

I throw mine in dry (as per TB's advice) at the end of ferment, give it a little stir around to mix it and it should do the job.

If you've already mixed it in hot water, just throw it in and it won't cause any problems to the beer if it's a small volume.


----------



## thesunsettree (4/5/11)

I dont cold crash in fermenter, i rack to keg add polyclar then chill min 24hr before filtering. I have added dry a few times with no obvious differences however i normally add to a cup of beer directly from fermenter stir briefly until dissolved and add to keg, then filter 24hrs or so later after cold. 

Edit - spurlunk

Matt


----------



## kevin_smevin (4/5/11)

instructions http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=726


----------



## bum (4/5/11)

yum yum yum said:


> instructions http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=726


Those are the instructions he mentioned his his question, right? :blink: 

Anyway, andmat, I assumed that the word "freshly" implied that the water is not cooled and have used it this way without ill effect - I'm sure the methods above work will too if they appeal.


----------



## Bribie G (4/5/11)

I used to stir it for 20 mins etc but now I just hit it with boiling water in a small pyrex bowl and stir it into the top of the cold conditioning beer. I get such brilliant beer I'd never consider buying a filter.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (5/5/11)

Hot or cold it wont matter. It will rehydrate faster in hot than cold water thats all.

Polyclar simply does not do its job until it is rehydrated. It will re-hydrate in hot water, cold water, or in the beer itself. The instructions on craftbrewer get you the best results in the least time. Add stirred, re-hydrated polyclar to an ice cold keg and by the time you have sealed it up and given it a shake, the polyclar has already done its job and is ready to filter out. Filter cold and give it a bit of the Ross method for carbonation and you could be drinking crystal clear chill haze free beer within an hour of it coming out of the primary fermenter.

Or you can toss the stuff into your secondary/bright keg dry, rack beer (cold or warm) ontop of it and leave it overnight - more or less the same result. Or throw it into your primary fermenter hydrated or not (note, yeast effects the performance of polyclar, so unless its quite clear you might well need more of the stuff to get the same result) and stir it gently into the top layer. It has to mix through and contact all the liquid... So techniques where you can give things a good stir are more sure fire.

It all works - the technique on craftbrewer is the "optimum" and the further you depart from that, the longer it takes and perhaps the higher dose of polyclar you need to get the job done. But it does indeed still work.


----------



## Ironsides (5/5/11)

At the winery i worked at we just mixed it up in wine, then added it back to the tank. Also, we were always told that polyclar was really bad for your lungs, but then we were doing 20+Kg additions.


----------



## Mikedub (5/5/11)

Palmer refers to polyclar as plastic dust, probably dont want that in your lungs, anyone know if its generally used in commercial beer brewing?


----------



## Bribie G (5/5/11)

I know that for bright beers as made by the Megas, they tend to use diatomaceious earth (kieselguhr = fossilized diatoms, also used to pack acetylene cylinders to stop them exploding and an essential part of dynamite <end of useless trivia>) as a filtering bed and also use a membrane filter but I dunno about Polyclar or similar. TB would know.


----------



## RdeVjun (5/5/11)

For a couple of batches I used Polyclar added dry to the secondary vessel and the beer racked in on top of it. First time, when I eventually drained it, the Polyclar was sitting there as a flat lump of goo, stuck to the bottom of the fermenter (hazed to buggery...). Next time I swirled it around a bit to get some mixing, but at that point I wasn't really wanting to oxidise the beer to stir in this stuff, so I now just add it on top of the beer going into secondary vessel, the small amount of agitation from the transfer operation seems to help distribute and rehydrate it as required. 
The pyrex bowl method sounds quite effective though BribieG, many thanks for the tip! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Wolfy (5/5/11)

Polyclar is just PVPP, which is otherwise known as _Polyvinylpolypyrrolidone_.

If the name alone does not tell you what it is, then I'm not sure what will.


----------



## malt_shovel (5/5/11)

BribieG said:


> I know that for bright beers as made by the Megas, they tend to use diatomaceious earth (kieselguhr = fossilized diatoms, also used to pack acetylene cylinders to stop them exploding and an essential part of dynamite <end of useless trivia>) as a filtering bed and also use a membrane filter but I dunno about Polyclar or similar. TB would know.



From my reading on chill haze problems and solutions, I understand a lot of commercials use it to improve the flavour and visual stability of the beer that is likely to sit on the shelves for a long time before consumption. I read a study performed by a research group within teh Guiness brewery that tested colloidal (polyphenols + proteins coming together to give a visual haze) stability of their soon to be developed black lager beer using Polyclar against a control batch of the same beer, both aged artificially through high temps. So there is at least one major brewery that is at least investigating it's use. Not sure if it doing it commercially though.

My understanding is DE filters are used for removing yeast and in some cases bacteria that has made it into the process to improve shelf-life, while polyclar was developed more for removing polyphenols that contribute to chill (leading to permenant) haze by adsorbing them onto the surface, coagulating and floccing to the bottom of the vessel. Slightly different application, but seems to work to clear yeast and other "stuff" in homebrewing applications. 

I am sure someone with more knowledge can chime in and correct some glaring mistakes above, but i think i got it right.

Cheers
:icon_chickcheers:


----------



## Bribie G (5/5/11)

Most people actually eat a fair amount of it during their lifetimes, it's in a lot of tablets like nurofen where it's not an active ingredient so you wouldn't see it listed. Also in hair conditioners etc etc, and the Americans actually trialled an artificial blood plasma replacement made from it. I might get a fourth font fitted and just pour Polyclar Cordial as it's such a wonderful compound. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Wolfy (5/5/11)

:icon_offtopic: 
No need for an extra font, just drink it directly from the (hair conditioner) bottle.

Now we have to wait for the gelatine Vs nurofen Vs hair-conditior finning comparisions


----------



## stillscottish (5/5/11)

I add it along with some Gelatin when I'm racking into the keg. By the time it's gassed up everything has settled. First glass is a bit lumpy but after that it's all good.
YMMV but it works for me.

Campbell


----------



## Thirsty Boy (6/5/11)

PVPP is very commonly used in both the brewing and wine industry. In brewing to ensure physical stability from a haze perspective (with a sub benefit of helping to reduce oxidation/aging flavours) - in wine to remove tannins to reduce bitterness and i think lighten colour.

Its added to beer in line after the main filter and filtered out afterwards with a separate filter, then regenerated and re-used. Smaller breweries might only have the facilities for "one time" use. You dont have to install the regeneration plant, but the cost per liter is higher (PVPP is not cheap). Its not generally used on all beers - only those which might be at extra risk of physical instability, or for which you need extra shelf life.

Polyclar removes low molecular weight tannins from solution by adsorbing them onto its surface. Polyclar does not flocculate or cause anything else to flocculate, coagulate or come out of solution. It simply soaks up the tannins and sinks to the bottom under its own weight, or is filtered out. Most homebrewers would be using polyclar VT which is a product meant for the wine industry and is created with a large enough particle size so that the polyclar effectively sinks to the bottom and you can rack off the top of it. Finer particles have a higher surface area and work better/faster with a lower dose, but are fine enough so they dont sink very well and you need to filter them out. Polyclar does not clear yeast or other stuff - that would be gravity. It is wholy and only for the purpose removing the tannins which might otherwise combine with protiens to form haze.


----------



## Bribie G (6/5/11)

that _might _combine with proteins to form chill haze....
Palmer suggests that chill haze is cold break that has made it through to the end of fermentation, pure and simple, and that wort has to be thermally shocked (ie plate chiller etc) otherwise chill haze is unavoidable. 

My own hands on experience with cold break is that Palmer is wrong - but then America is the new Roman Empire so anything emanating from leading experts in that country has to carry more weight than the whimperings of mere barbarians inhabiting the outer campfires beyond the magnificent glow of the Capitol.

And I haven't even had a drink yet B)


----------



## Thirsty Boy (6/5/11)

Chill haze is essentially cold break - and you are correct, Palmer is wrong on the "shocking" aspect of cold break formation. That argument doesn't even have consistancy of internal logic.

If chill haze is cold break, and cold break only forms when the wort/beer is _suddenly_ chilled, then naturally, chill haze would only occur if your beer was "suddenly" chilled. So you might get a beer that forms chill haze if a warm bottle is put in an eski full of ice and very rapidly made cold - but that same beer would remain haze free if it were put into a normal fridge and cooled down to the same temperature over a period of several hours. This is not what happens.

Chill haze and cold break are simply complexes between tannins and protiens that are soluble at high temperatures and insoluble at lower temperatures. The speed with which the temperature is reached has little or nothing to do with it. (note, i think it can affect the size of the break particles that form, not the amount of break - just the size of particle the break flocculates into)


----------



## Dazza88 (1/9/11)

First time polyclar use. If I added polyclar dry into my secondary fermenter two days should beer now be haze free? It seems hazey. Teaspoon sprinkled onto top of beer. At two degrees.


----------



## felten (1/9/11)

A teaspoon might not be enough for a standard batch, especially if it wasn't mixed in adequately.


----------



## Ross (1/9/11)

DazDog said:


> First time polyclar use. If I added polyclar dry into my secondary fermenter two days should beer now be haze free? It seems hazey. Teaspoon sprinkled onto top of beer. At two degrees.



Recommended dosage is 5 to 10gms. 5gms = 1 tablespoon. Works better is rehydrated first. Add 5 gms to half a mug of freshly boiled water, stir for a few minutes & then sprinkle over brew. 

cheers Ross


----------



## Dazza88 (1/9/11)

Lol. In my head a teaspoon = 5grams thx guys

Good to see others check the forum so early in the morning


----------



## DKS (1/9/11)

I checked no*s on this DazDog. This is what I got using brew calc on banner above.

1 teaspoon = 0.173oz =4.9gm
3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon = 14.9gm or 0.52 oz = 14.7gm

Daz


----------



## Ross (1/9/11)

DKS said:


> I checked no*s on this DazDog. This is what I got using brew calc on banner above.
> 
> 1 teaspoon = 0.173oz =4.9gm
> 3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon = 14.9gm or 0.52 oz = 14.7gm
> ...




DKS, if you can get 5gm of polyclar on a teaspoon you are a far better man than me. (it's not sugar)

Cheers Ross


----------



## drsmurto (1/9/11)

I add a measured amount of polyclar to boiling water in a flask and put it on a stirplate. Leave it for an hour and then add it to cold beer. Leave it 1 day or more and then rack to keg.

What do people weigh out their hops with? I use an electronic balance. The same one i use for weighing out polyclar, salts, yeast nutrient.

I don't use spoons or cups.

Why do people insist on using a volume measurement for weights? It's a dodgy approximation at best.


----------



## Bribie G (1/9/11)

When I use Polyclar I mix it with freshly boiling water out of an electric jug, doesn't do it any harm as it doesn't "denature" like gelatine etc. Then shake or stir for as long as you can stand the boredom and add to the cold conditioning beer. Sometimes you can almost make out a sort of instant "break" happening. Then 2 or 3 days to settle out.


----------



## Fourstar (1/9/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Why do people insist on using a volume measurement for weights? It's a dodgy approximation at best.



I cry when i see recipes in cookbooks where they switch between volume and weight measurement. 

THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE BY VOLUME IS FREAKING WATER (well, liquids at best).

e.g.
1 cup flour
5g baking powder
5 tablespoons butter
200g dessicated coconut.

instead of :
300g flour
5g baking powder
60g butter
200g dessicated coconut

Choose a measurement and STICK WITH IT! I can tolerate it with savory as you're typically cooking "to taste" but when you're trying to make a meringue or something that requires EXACT measurements, it shits me to tears.

Instead of buying that next pack of smokes or pint at the local. People, please invest in some of these:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/portable-1-8-...g-2-x-aaa-73555


----------



## Brewman_ (1/9/11)

I thought most Polyclar users would filter. Sounds here like many just allow to settle for 2 or 3 days and then rack to keg, is that right?

Fear_n_loath


----------



## spudfarmerboy (1/9/11)

If polyclar is added to the fermenter at the end of cold conditioning, how long should it be left before filtering to keg? (I gravity filter from fermenter to keg).


----------



## Ross (1/9/11)

spudfarmerboy said:


> If polyclar is added to the fermenter at the end of cold conditioning, how long should it be left before filtering to keg? (I gravity filter from fermenter to keg).




Minimum 24 hours

cheers Ross


----------



## bcp (1/9/11)

BribieG said:


> Most people actually eat a fair amount of it during their lifetimes, it's in a lot of tablets like nurofen where it's not an active ingredient so you wouldn't see it listed. Also in hair conditioners etc etc, and the Americans actually trialled an artificial blood plasma replacement made from it. I might get a fourth font fitted and just pour Polyclar Cordial as it's such a wonderful compound. :icon_cheers:



I'm not so sure you could quite go that far. I think it's safe provided the manufacturer meets stringent controls on the residues of NVP. NVP is produced as a residue in the manufacture of PVPP. I stand open to correction from those who read these kinds of reports better than me. NVP is more readily absorbed via inhalation, but also through the skin and stomach. The Scientific Committee on Food for the European Union aren't quite as glowing in their accounts as the reports from the manufacturers and those close to them. 

Short version - their conclusion:
_"The use of PVP in dietary supplements and of PVPP as a processing aid for beer and wine remain acceptable, provided the existing specifications for
PVP and PVPP are amended to the currently proposed limit for NVP residues of 10 mg/kg PVP or PVPP. ...The Committee notes that the manufacturer
supplying the European Union market currently meets such a specification."_ Does the american supplier of Polyclar? I'm not sure. 

NVP residue is the principle risk. Overall they noted: 
It is a non-genotoxic carcinogen when inhaled by rats.
It had other toxic effects on other species in intake through other forms of exposure. 
Acute oral, inhalational and dermal toxicities were determined in a variety of laboratory animals
It releases acetaldehyde in the acidity of the stomach.
It is absorbed by the body, mostly the liver, but most of it is excreted in urine. 
There is a gap in long-term studies of dermal and oral intake
Intake via something like a 1g food supplemental tablet is minute

_"The maximum residue of NVP from the use of PVPP in the clarification of beer and wine is
estimated at 5 μg/l of beverage, based on experimental technological data (Madigan et al.,
2000; Chandra-Gopal et al., 2000; Gautier, 1995). Thus consumption of 2L of beer and
wine/day may contribute an intake of up to 0.17 μg/kg b.w/day of NVP for a 60 kg person.
The Committee understands, however, that the Community Code of Oenological Practice and
Processes limits the maximum content of free NVP in PVPP to 0.1%, which exceeds the
proposed specification limit for NVP in PVPP by about 100-fold and wishes to draw the
attention of the Commission to this discrepancy" (European Commission, 2000)._

http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out87_en.pdf

I'm not familiar enough with polyclar to understand how much residue you get, whether there are recommended 'doses' per litre, etc .
Edit: But it does appear to be quite safe overall with that little proviso. Sorry to sound alarming.


----------



## krusty_oz (1/9/11)

More info on Polyclar can be found on the manufacturers website http://online1.ispcorp.com/en-US/Pages/bvg...amp;prdId=72809


----------



## Dazza88 (1/9/11)

After asking about my attempt of using polyclar above I just kegged this beer and its bloody good. Cb bo pils fwk. Clearer than when I last checked. The small amount of polyclar had a noticeable effect.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (2/9/11)

Did you read the thread?

Polyclar will not make your beer haze free in the secondary fermenter. Polclar stops chill haze... That is it, nothing else, just chill haze.

So unless your beer was perfectly clear before, then you cooled it down to consumption temperature and it went hazy, but clears up when warmer..... Then the haze of which you speak has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that polyclar may or may not do to your beer, regardless of the dose and when or how you added it.

Just chill haze....NOTHING else.


----------



## Dazza88 (2/9/11)

The haze that presented in the secondary at 1c after gelatin?


----------



## mckenry (2/9/11)

spudfarmerboy said:


> If polyclar is added to the fermenter at the end of cold conditioning, how long should it be left before filtering to keg? (I gravity filter from fermenter to keg).



Instructions say 5-10 minutes if filtering.


----------



## Ross (2/9/11)

mckenry said:


> Instructions say 5-10 minutes if filtering.




Not when adding to your fermenter, which was the question asked - You need time for the polyclar to drop through the beer. If polyclaring a keg where you can thouroughly mix then 5 to 10 mins is fine.

cheers Ross


----------



## dougsbrew (2/9/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Chill haze and cold break are simply complexes between tannins and protiens that are soluble at high temperatures and insoluble at lower temperatures. The speed with which the temperature is reached has little or nothing to do with it. (note, i think it can affect the size of the break particles that form, not the amount of break - just the size of particle the break flocculates into)




thanks tb, youve answered a few of my questions here in this thread, and then created some more. i usually chuck in about 5g polyclar 
to corny, sometimes still getting some chill haze, upped it to 7g and knocked it on the head, therefore my conclusion, a fair bit of coldbreak present. 
is there anything else that could be done to reduce these tannins/protiens. protein rests? longer boil? whirflock? wort filter?


----------



## mckenry (2/9/11)

mckenry said:


> Instructions say 5-10 minutes if filtering.






Ross said:


> Not when adding to your fermenter, which was the question asked - You need time for the polyclar to drop through the beer. If polyclaring a keg where you can thouroughly mix then 5 to 10 mins is fine.
> 
> cheers Ross



Ah ok. Doesnt actually state that in the instuctions. I filter keg to keg after PVPP in fermenter, so I guess it gets a decent mix. I also leave it anywhere for an hour, up to 3 days anyway.

_Minimum contact time of 5 to 10 minutes is desirable (if filtering), however there is no negative impact on the beer with extended times. If not filtering, leave for 2 to 3 days to settle, then rack off the lees.
Bottle or keg._


----------



## ekul (2/9/11)

Can polyclar be added straight to the keg? So add a teaspoon (of rehydrated polyclar) to the keg, let carbonate for 2 weeks and then serve? I'd love clear beer but i don't want to hassle of a filter, it goes clear if i wait long enough, but who has the time in this drink-a-day world?


----------



## Bribie G (2/9/11)

dougsbrew said:


> thanks tb, youve answered a few of my questions here in this thread, and then created some more. i usually chuck in about 5g polyclar
> to corny, sometimes still getting some chill haze, upped it to 7g and knocked it on the head, therefore my conclusion, a fair bit of coldbreak present.
> is there anything else that could be done to reduce these tannins/protiens. protein rests? longer boil? whirflock? wort filter?



You can also hit it at "first base" by adding a PVPP / caragheenan mixture towards the end of boiling. CraftBrewer don't sell it as yet (I believe Ross was going to experiment with packaging options to ensure the product stayed viable after repacking). I bought half a kilo about 2 years ago (as part of a bulk buy) which I've gone through and I now get it from Marks Home Brew Shop Newcastle under the name of BrewBright, comes in sealed tubs and should be kept fridged. 

You mix it to a runny paste and chuck it into the boil, and get instant breadcrumb soup forming before your very eyes :icon_cheers: 
The clarity of my beers is often, kindly, commented on at club meetings, visitors to my fonts etc. :super:

Edit: this also avoids having to add clearing agents either to secondary or to the keg.


----------



## argon (2/9/11)

yep you can add it to the keg... after a bit of time to allow it to settle it'll just end up in the first glass or 2.

For me i don't consider a filter and Polyclar interchangeable. Filter for yeast and debris... Polyclar for chill haze only. 
- You can still get hazy beer if you filter
- You can still get hazy beer if you use Polyclar
- Very, very rarely do i get any haze if using both.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (3/9/11)

DazDog said:


> The haze that presented in the secondary at 1c after gelatin?



Ahh - fair enough. Did i read your post properly? - plainly not. Sorry.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (3/9/11)

Bribie G said:


> You can also hit it at "first base" by adding a PVPP / caragheenan mixture towards the end of boiling. CraftBrewer don't sell it as yet (I believe Ross was going to experiment with packaging options to ensure the product stayed viable after repacking). I bought half a kilo about 2 years ago (as part of a bulk buy) which I've gone through and I now get it from Marks Home Brew Shop Newcastle under the name of BrewBright, comes in sealed tubs and should be kept fridged.
> 
> You mix it to a runny paste and chuck it into the boil, and get instant breadcrumb soup forming before your very eyes :icon_cheers:
> The clarity of my beers is often, kindly, commented on at club meetings, visitors to my fonts etc. :super:
> ...



What dose of brewbright are you using Bribie? I've been using it and quite like it, its a really good kettle finings, and i much prefer to not have to add stuff to my fermenter/keg.... But i found that it wasn't quite doing the job for the chill haze. Much reduced for certain, but not completely knocked on the head as it is when i use it in the fermenter/keg.

Maybe i'm just not tossing in enough of the stuff?


----------



## Bribie G (3/9/11)

I use two rounded teaspoons and mix to a runny paste. I look at if from the point of view that the one tub of product replaces two other purchases, so no point in being too stingy. As you say it's excellent kettle finings - absolutely instant in most cases. I also have a pack of plain old Polyclar and use that in CC as an insurance policy if I'm doing a beer that I particularly want to be clear when very cold. However generally I don't use it every time. Like you I find that there _can_ be a bit of chill haze, especially in my all malt brews. But it's hit or miss. Generally they come out nice and clear (I'll be posting my latest Irish Red in "what's in the glass" this afternoon. That was just BrewBright, didn't get CCd (straight into keg from primary) and didn't use gelatine or anything either.


----------



## dr K (3/9/11)

Bribie G said:


> I use two rounded teaspoons and mix to a runny paste. I look at if from the point of view that the one tub of product replaces two other purchases, so no point in being too stingy. As you say it's excellent kettle finings - absolutely instant in most cases. I also have a pack of plain old Polyclar and use that in CC as an insurance policy if I'm doing a beer that I particularly want to be clear when very cold. However generally I don't use it every time. Like you I find that there _can_ be a bit of chill haze, especially in my all malt brews. But it's hit or miss. Generally they come out nice and clear (I'll be posting my latest Irish Red in "what's in the glass" this afternoon. That was just BrewBright, didn't get CCd (straight into keg from primary) and didn't use gelatine or anything either.


I use Brewbrite, and have been for some time.
Of course I sell the stuff so be warned.
It is essentially a micronised PVPP mixed a carageenan like compund. It should be made into a slurry and added towards the end of the boil. The idea is that the kettle fining component does its bit and the micronised PVPP is carried onstream, where I guess it eventually drops out !
Warning it it is almost mistlike (possibly a reason why it should be slurried, not certain). MSDS are readily available.

K


----------



## mfeighan (3/9/11)

i just noticed t.w.o.c are selling brewbrite now, next time i go there will give it a shot. So from what i gather it is a replacement for whirlfloc which also helps with chill haze? sold in 100g/500g how many double batches would 100g last?


----------



## Bribie G (3/9/11)

Whirlfloc helps to flocculate out the _hot_ break, but doesn't do a whole lot for chill haze, which comes more from Polyphenols that get carried over as part of the _cold_ break. However Brewbrite and BrewBright contain carageenan similar to Whirlfloc so they substitute for that, and do it very well. I reckon I get a far superior break to my old Whirlfloc days.


Edit:
According to the instructions on my tubs it should be typically used at the rate of 15g per hectolitre, which come out to around a rounded tsp per 25L. I use a bit more personally but if you follow instructions you would get around 14 double batches out of 100g.


----------



## TidalPete (3/9/11)

> I use a bit more personally but if you follow instructions you would get around 14 double batches out of 100g.



I'm happy with 10g in 25 litres Bribie so 100g would see me through 10 brews.
Saw a post somewhere on AHB that gave info on how to mix BrewBrite without getting lumps. Something to do with water temp IIRC? Don't suppose anyone can guide me in the right direction?

TP


----------



## dr K (3/9/11)

If added 10 minutes before the end of boil ...hydration and mixing are achieved by the vigorous boiling action in the kettle ...quoted from the spec sheet.
email me if want a copy
K


----------



## TidalPete (3/9/11)

dr K said:


> If added 10 minutes before the end of boil ...hydration and mixing are achieved by the vigorous boiling action in the kettle ...quoted from the spec sheet.
> email me if want a copy
> K



Thanks for that dr K. :icon_cheers: 
All lumps are dissolved after adding at 15 minutes here but was just hoping to get another look at the post I mentioned to avoid getting the lumps in the first place.

TP


----------



## Thirsty Boy (3/9/11)

Whirlfloc is actually mostly about cold break bribie - and as a result it does in fact help with chill haze, but its not a complete chill haze solution.

TP - I always mix my brewbright with cold water and just go at it with a teaspoon till the slurry is smooth, then kind of like a custard, I whisk a litre of boiling wort into that, then add the litre back to the main kettle... certainly produces immediate results and no lumps of the stuff floating around in the kettle.

What's your experience with it Dr K? Is it able to be a complete chill haze solution? or is it just OK to knock out the evils if you normally only get a light haze - but not quite up to the job if you usually have a bit of a nasty CH problem?

I'm not sure where I am with it at the moment, I am transiting away from a fairly high protein base malt that I think was the main reason I was getting a decent whack of CH - so perhaps with "better" malt the brew bright will be enough on its own, it wasn't really before.


----------



## manticle (3/9/11)

Is it true that very quick chilling removes chill haze at the root cause or is that a palmer created furphy?

Mostly I don't worry about it as it's rare that I drink/serve a beer cold enough to get any haze but I'm interested.

I used polyclar a few times and noticed it does help with chilled beer but I only serve that to non-brewing friends in summer and get clear beer these days with time and cold.

Someone offered me some brew-brite at BB type prices recently so I thought I'd give it a crack (if and when it happens)


----------



## Dazza88 (3/9/11)

At the risk of exposing my newbness, could I add polyclar vt with whirlpool towards the end of the boil? And get the polyclar to do its thing.


----------



## dr K (3/9/11)

as to chill haze..I am of the belief that chill haze is best combated pre fermentation, a full on rolling boil and as fast a chill as possible are easy to achieve and make the work of finings easier, I really do think that even the best post fermentation fining in the world is not going to be completely effective for a beer that has had a simmering boil and slow, or heaven forbid, no chilling ( I am not saying that no chill will give you milky beers or kill you OK, its a choice thing).
brew brite is good, its convenient and its not expensive, its not a silver bullet though
a good ale malt, a rolling boil and quick chill,a flocculant ale yeast and sensible drinking temperatures = clear beer with no finings at all 

K


----------



## Nick JD (3/9/11)

http://online1.ispcorp.com/en-US/Media/Art...20Brewbrite.pdf


----------



## MHB (3/9/11)

Not a bad article on how PVPP works Nick
Unfortunately haze is far from a single part problem with a one answer fix, I use BrewBright and at need Polyclar 70/30, both are combined products containing PVPP and k-Carrageenan in the first and PVPP with Silica Xerogel in the second.
This is a great over view of most aspects of what causes haze and how to tackle it, part of the study material provided by the IBD 
View attachment 01___Beer_Stabilisation_part_1_1_.pdf
View attachment 04___Beer_stabilisation_part_2_1_.pdf

Ultimately the onus is on the brewer to make good high quality wort that resists haze formation, one point that often gets over looked is the role of Iron (Fe) and Copper (Cu) as a catalyst for haze formation. Everything you can do to minimise exposure to these two from the kettle on downstream is a big assist. But a true fix is a whole of brewery approach optimising the wort for stability, without degrading head forming potential too much.
M


----------



## Dazza88 (27/9/11)

By the way 2.5 teaspoons of polyclar = 5 grams. 

Second attempt at polyclar


----------



## Bribie G (27/9/11)

So was Pilsner Urquell chill hazed in the days when they used gradual cooling via a coolship?


----------



## felten (27/9/11)

Probably, but that's one of the reasons you lager beer right


----------

