# Tooheys Old All Grain



## rosswill

I'm sure this must have been covered before, but does anyone have an all grain recipe for a Tooheys Old style clone?

If you had to have a guess, what grains/hops/yeast would you use?


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## T.D.

I think the simpler the better if you want to make this beer. My bet is it would be pale malt with a sprinkling of roast for colour and a touch of roasty flavour.

My bet would be something like:

OG of around 1.040-42, and mash low (~65deg)
97% Pale Malt
3% Roast (but adjust to your preferred EBC - probably for Old it would be around 40??)
POR @ 60 to around 28 IBUs
Some generic "unoffensive" ale yeast like S-04

You'd probably be pretty close with a recipe like that.


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## Screwtop

Schwarz, close but better.

Cheers,

Screwy



Recipe: Schwarzbier 

Batch Size: 24.00 L 
Boil Size: 32.57 L
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 28.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 82.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 56.50 % 
1.50 kg Munich Malt I (9.0 SRM) Grain 28.25 % 
0.45 kg Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 8.47 % 
0.12 kg Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 % 
0.12 kg Caramunich Malt (Jow White) (56.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 % 
0.12 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (15.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 % 
15.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 7.6 IBU 
15.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 13.5 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 5.9 IBU 
5.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (5 min) Hops 0.5 IBU 
1 Pkgs SafLager Swiss Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule:

Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash-In Sacch Rest Add 16.00 L of water at 78.7 C 66.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Heat to 77.0 C over 15 min 77.0 C


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## troydo

If thats the recipe i got off you screwy its absolute Neck oil!! LOVE IT one of the best brews ive made!

Troydo


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## Fatgodzilla

The great Tony of bad spelling fame sent me this recipe that is worth looking at. Adjusting the quantities and note he's using flowers rather than pellets, but this looks the bees knees to me and will be in a fermenter soon. KISS and reap the rewards ?

Note, TO is a lager, though I wonder what difference that would make in the long run ?



AG Tooheys old	A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.70
Anticipated OG: 1.045 Plato: 11.19
Anticipated EBC: 37.9
Anticipated IBU: 22.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
87.6 8.50 kg. IMC Ale Malt Australia 1.038 4
5.2 0.50 kg. TF Pale Crystal UK 1.034 100
4.1 0.40 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 940
3.1 0.30 kg. JWM Dark Crystal Australia 1.036 230
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
48.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 9.60 20.7 45 min.
20.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 9.60 1.9 5 min.

Yeast US-01 at 18 deg to keep it real clean.


keep the bitterness down but mash it cool (64) so its not cloying.

dont bother with roast malt, it will only add a bit of harshness.......but if you want to thats all good. Your going to be drinking it.

If you want it like tooheys old, even try using pils malt to lighten it up and brew the dark ale with a lager yeast........ like tookeys do.

anyway hope that can get you started.


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## troydo

Tooheys old is not a lager its an ale , a dark ale as per the label:


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## Fatgodzilla

Troydo said:


> Tooheys old is not a lager its an ale , a dark ale as per the label:





Believe whoever you want to. It sounds like its an ale yeast though !


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## rough60

Hi rosswill,
This come out pretty close, haven't had time to adjust it much recently.
It's very simple to make.
Tooheys Old clone
Cheers.


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## Screwtop

Troydo said:


> Tooheys old is not a lager its an ale , a dark ale as per the label:




My ale clone was good as Troydo said, but the lager is closer. Tooheys Old smells like a lager yeast to me, maybe it's the traditional aussie psudo lager.

Troy, post your recipe here for rosswill

Screwy


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## troydo

Recipe: Screwtops Australian Old Ale


Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.25 kg Pilsner Malt Powells (3.0 EBC) Grain 66.33 % 
0.50 kg Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 10.20 % 
0.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EGrain 10.20 % 
0.30 kg Carafa II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 6.12 % 
0.25 kg Wheat Malt Powells (2.6 EBC) Grain 5.10 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (550.0 EBC) Grain 2.04 % 
25.00 gm Nugget [9.80 %] (60 min) Hops 23.9 IBU 
35.00 gm Cluster [5.30 %] (20 min) Hops 11.0 IBU 
0.28 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale


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## glennheinzel

Screwtop said:


> My ale clone was good as Troydo said, but the lager is closer. Tooheys Old smells like a lager yeast to me, maybe it's the traditional aussie psudo lager.



Perhaps a kolsh yeast would work well?!


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## troydo

fine idea rukh... what yeasts would you reccomend? is there a dry or only liquid variant?


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## glennheinzel

Troydo said:


> fine idea rukh... what yeasts would you reccomend? is there a dry or only liquid variant?



I haven't used the following yeasts myself, but they look like they would do the trick-

*White Labs WLP003 German Ale II (May/June special release)* - Good for Klsch, Alt, and German style Pale Ales. Strong sulfur component will reduce with aging. Clean, but with more ester production than WLP029.

*White Labs WLP029 German Ale/ Klsch Yeast*. From a small brewpub in Cologne, Germany, this yeast works great in Klsch and Alt style beers. Good for light beers like blond and honey. Accentuates hop flavors, similar to WLP001. The slight sulfur produced during fermentation will disappear with age and leave a super clean, lager like ale. 

*Wyeast 1007 | German Ale*. True top cropping yeast, low ester formation, broad temperature range affects styles. Cold fermentation will produce lager characteristics including sulfur production. Fermentation at higher temperatures may produce some mild fruitiness. Generally, yeast remains significantly in suspension. Beers mature rapidly, even when cold fermentation is used. Low or no detectable diacetyl. 

On the dry front, *Safale K97 *might work. Top cropping ale yeast for top fermented beers with low esters and wheat beers. Available in 500g packs.

Good luck!


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## geoffi

Here's another yeast idea: S-189.

I've found this ferments extremely clean and lager-like at low to moderate ale temps, or you can drop it down to 12c. I've made a couple of cracking Schwarzbiers with it, so it works with darker styles.


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## T.D.

I think any generic ale or lager yeast would be fine. You want it to finish fairly dry. S-04 fermented at 16-18deg would fit the bill nicely. I really think yeast character is not an important part of this beer - just go for something boring and basic! :lol: 

Just as important as the yeast choice would be to make sure you mash on the low-ish side.


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## Fatgodzilla

T.D. said:


> I think any generic ale or lager yeast would be fine. You want it to finish fairly dry. S-04 fermented at 16-18deg would fit the bill nicely. I really think yeast character is not an important part of this beer - just go for something boring and basic! :lol:
> 
> Just as important as the yeast choice would be to make sure you mash on the low-ish side.



Most of these recipes being posted are using pilsener as the main malt a la swartzbier styling. What do you see as the benefit of the pils rather than a standard ale malt in terms of flavour and / or body ?


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## T.D.

Pilsner probably is more authentic - I'd think that'd be closer to the base malt spec that Tooheys would use. Also would give the beer a bit lighter body, which is the way to go. This is a beer that when included in a blind tasting a surprising number of people don't pick it as being a dark beer. Just reiterates the fact that a lighter body and just enough roast or choc malt to get you up to the colour you want is the way to go. It really is just a dark coloured session beer.


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## rosswill

Thank you everyone. 
I'm like a kid in a candy store. I want to try them all.


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## Tony

Im fairly sure tooheys use a pale malt and a single dark malt that are specialy malted for them to a spec that we cant buy to make Old.

I love tooheys old and have had a few cracks at it.

I always end up making it a bit fuller and maltier than the Old at the club or pub. Probably because i use ale malt and brew with an ale yeast.

I would recomend using 50/50 ale/pils malts if youe using a light ale malt like IMC but 75% pils if your using MO for example........... you want that crispness that pils malt gives to a beer.

NExt you need to find a compromise between crystal and chocolate malts to give you a similar efect to the malt they use. I dont know the spec but perhaps ross could help you out with some info................ i think he may have "found" some that fell off a truck once........... years back!

The tooheys old i love at teh club had a sweetness, and a chocolate character and im still trying to get it right.

makt the beer to between 35 and 38 EBC, 10.44 to 1.046 and brew it with S-189 at 12 deg for a more authentic mouth feel and character.

try using pale chocolate at 550 EBC and crystal malt............... say 50% more than the anount of chocolate used to ballance it. adjust the amounts till you get the right colour.

Bitter with anything you want really but POR or cluster will get you closest. I like a bit at the finish but for an authentic version, just bitter it and no more hops!.

Thats about the best i can help you with. I could post 15 different recipes or ways to come to the same result but if you follow that you will get close.

Brew it, taste it and go...........mmmmmmmm needs more chocolate, or its to heavy, use all Pils next time.

Its you that has to drink it so make it to suit your taste.

The best thing about AG breing is if your trying to clone something, you ofter make it better!

Just filtered my german pilsner to a keg and i dont thing i will ever be able to stomach a Becks again 

cheers


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## Wrenny

Brewed this the other week. Had the first glass on Monday and it was great. Not really intentional, but it did taste a lot like Old. 





BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 18 - Al's Brown Porter Prototype
Brewer: Michael
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Brown Porter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (45.0) Delicious smooth beer. Looks dark but not too much roast or chocolate taste. Great session beer.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L 
Boil Size: 25.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 20.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.70 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.0 SRM) Grain 90.2 % 
0.10 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.4 % 
0.10 kg Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 2.4 % 
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.4 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt Pale (600.0 SRM) Grain 2.4 % 
10.00 gm Super Alpha [13.00%] (60 min) Hops 14.8 IBU 
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (15 min) Hops 7.1 IBU 
10.00 items Sage (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Step Decoction 68 - 78
Total Grain Weight: 4.10 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 12.30 L of water at 73.8 C 68.0 C 90 min 
Mash Out Decoct 4.68 L of mash and boil it 78.0 C 10 min 




I don't think the sage actually added anything, there wasn't that much of it. I just can't help adding strange stuff to my brews.
Nottingham was fine, brewed at 18 deg.


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## glennheinzel

I'm thinking about making a Tooheys Old style beer in the near future so I've been digging through the web to see what additional information I can find. 

To clear up the debate on whether they use an ale or a lager yeast - the Lion Nathan website confirms that they use an ale yeast.
http://www.lion-nathan.com.au/Great-Brands...ys-Old-(1).aspx



> Tooheys Old is a robustly flavoured ale made with top fermentation ale yeast. The beer is lightly hopped and black malt gives it darker colour. The fruity ale-like esters blend well with the subtle hoppiness and hints of coffee/chocolate to deliver a unique beer.



I've also found another link where it is claimed that Tooheys feel that Old was inspired by Alt. If this is remotely accurate, then the alt/kolsch yeast might be close to the mark-
http://www.australianbeers.com/beers/toohe...tooheys_old.htm


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## gap

Rukh said:


> I've also found another link where it is claimed that Tooheys feel that Old was inspired by Alt.




Alt is German for Old. At least Babel Fish says so. So nothing to do with beer or beer style.

Regards

Graeme


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## Hashie

> Altbier (often abbreviated to Alt) is the name given to a form of German top-fermenting beer that originated in Westphalia and spread to parts of the Rhineland later.


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