# 0 minute hops



## pcmax (23/9/15)

Im fairly new to brewing and am starting to prepare equipment, knowledge, and mentally go over all the steps for my first all grain attempt. Apologies in advance if this is a silly question?

The only concept im struggling with at the moment is the addition of zero minute hops to the boil. Whilst i understand you add them at flame out, how long do you let them sit (I plan to use hop bags for all additions) before you chill and transfer the brew to the fermenter??

Cheers
Peter


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## indica86 (23/9/15)

However long you want depending on the result you are chasing.
I no-chill and leave mine to settle for about 20 minutes.


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## anthonyUK (23/9/15)

If you don't want them to add any additional IBUs then wait for the wort to drop below 80°c.
I usually do this, whirlpool (by hand) and leave for 30 mins , mainly to allow the trub to settle.


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## indica86 (23/9/15)

anthonyUK said:


> whirlpool (by hand) and leave for 30 mins


Does that not burn?


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## Bribie G (23/9/15)

By hop bags do you mean the hop tea bags you get from local home brew shops?
Horribly expensive way of doing it, and sometimes not too fresh; you'd be better off visiting a larger store and getting hop pellets by the 100g, works out a third of the cost per batch.


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## seamad (23/9/15)

0 minute hops will add bitterness even after the hops are removed ( oils will still isomerize ). I only use 0min when using a hop rocket then straight to a plate chiller. They can add a fair amount of bitterness if it takes a while to get under 80C. Calculating IBU on a homebrew scale is pretty arbitary imo, it's unlikely to be accurate, which isn't really a problem, you just learn from experience what you like and how to get that. To begin with I'd be cautious of very large 0 additions to start with.


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## kaiserben (23/9/15)

I find the following excerpt from a Brew Your Own magazine (byo.com) article from Mar/Apr 2013 to be very useful: 




> The second factor to consider is the length of your hop stand. There are no right or wrong answers, but anywhere from 10 minutes to 90 minutes — or even an overnight stand — can be employed. For most super-charged, hop-forward beers, my hop stands will run 45 to 60 minutes. For a mid-range hop profile like an American pale ale or a beer I am looking to get a significant IBU contribution from, I will usually shorten that stand to 30 minutes. If the beer is not to be hop forward nor do I need significant IBU from the hop stand, then 10–15 minute hop stand usually will suffices.
> 
> Three temperature profiles that seem to be popular among homebrewers are just off boil range (88–100 °C), the sub-isomerization range (71–77 °C), and a tepid hop stand range (60–66 °C). The (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. Some homebrewers will keep their kettle burner on low to keep the temperature of the wort elevated above (93 °C) during their extended hop stands which would better emulate the conditions in commercial whirlpools. A hop stand in the (71–77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils. Homebrewers can use their wort chillers to bring the wort down to this range before adding the knockout hops or they can add a second dose of knockout hops. The (60–66 °C) range will once again reduce vaporization of the low flashpoint oils, but may take longer to get the same amount of essential oils extracted.
> 
> I have never had dimethyl sulfide (DMS) issues with any of the beers I have performed a hop stand on and have always left the lid on. If using a Pilsner malt or other DMS-prone, lightly-kilned base malt, you may want to increase your boil time to 90 minutes.




EDIT: I even got rid of all the Fahrenheit rubbish to make it easier to comprehend. 
EDIT AGAIN: And yes, I'd put them in a hop sock (in the kettle) hold at whatever temp range I want for as long as I want, then chill further and transfer to fermenter.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/15)

No chill brings the problem of turning your 0 min addition into about a 5-10 min addition depending on how slowly it cools. Your only true way around it it is to dry hop or add a tea of 0 min addition in a separate pot and chilling it quickly then adding when the wort has cooled

I went back to chilling after no-chilling for a while years back. I found it upset the hop profile of the beer as no chill basically extends the hop addition time. Got much better flavours crash chilling


Or use a hop sock.


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## motman (23/9/15)

It may be a bit simplistic but I just toss em in at flame out, set up plate chiller and get on with it. All in all that probably gives it about 15 mins. I dry hop for the lower temp aroma impact. 

I'd suggest not agonising over it too much initially (if ever) - far more important stuff to worry about first batch.


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## pcmax (23/9/15)

Bribie G said:


> By hop bags do you mean the hop tea bags you get from local home brew shops?
> Horribly expensive way of doing it, and sometimes not too fresh; you'd be better off visiting a larger store and getting hop pellets by the 100g, works out a third of the cost per batch.


No i bought a bunch of small muslin bags on ebbay that i will be placing the hop pellets in during the boil


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## whitegoose (23/9/15)

kaiserben said:


> For most super-charged, hop-forward beers, my hop stands will run 45 to 60 minutes. For a mid-range hop profile like an American pale ale or a beer I am looking to get a significant IBU contribution from, I will usually shorten that stand to 30 minutes. If the beer is not to be hop forward nor do I need significant IBU from the hop stand, then 10–15 minute hop stand usually will suffices.


This seems... kinda confusing to me... for a super charged, hop-forward beer, he wants a "hop stand" of 45-60 minutes?? And shorter contact time with near-boiling wort for less hop presence? Isn't that backwards? How does this line up with the science that if you boil for 45-60 minutes you get no hop presence and lots of bitterness, and if you want more hop character you boil for less time?

FWIW I do my 0 minute hops the same as motman - but I try to get them going quick as possible, maybe 5-10 minutes. I also have used a hopback on my last couple of hoppy beers.


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## pcmax (23/9/15)

anthonyUK said:


> If you don't want them to add any additional IBUs then wait for the wort to drop below 80°c.
> I usually do this, whirlpool (by hand) and leave for 30 mins , mainly to allow the trub to settle.


OK while we're at it I understand that whirlpooling leaves most of the crud in a bit of a pile at the center of the kettle after the boil is done. 
Is the idea for it to stay there whilst the wort is slowly drained off via the ball valve fitting at the bottom of the kettle to enhance the clarity of the wort?
If so how do you prevent some of the whirlpooled stuff leaching back into the clearer wort? or does it just behave very well and remain in the center of the kettle?


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## anthonyUK (23/9/15)

I mainly do it to stop my plate chiller getting blocked and it appears to behave itself when filtering. I BIAB using an urn fitted with a bazooka type filter.

My understanding of the 'hop presence' is not so much time related but temperature in that you want to get the temp below not just the isomerisation temp but also one which keeps more of the volatile oils too.


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## kaiserben (23/9/15)

whitegoose said:


> This seems... kinda confusing to me... for a super charged, hop-forward beer, he wants a "hop stand" of 45-60 minutes?? And shorter contact time with near-boiling wort for less hop presence? Isn't that backwards? How does this line up with the science that if you boil for 45-60 minutes you get no hop presence and lots of bitterness, and if you want more hop character you boil for less time?
> 
> FWIW I do my 0 minute hops the same as motman - but I try to get them going quick as possible, maybe 5-10 minutes. I also have used a hopback on my last couple of hoppy beers.


Specifically for the temps you'd be at immediately after flame out, the article says: 



> The (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. Some homebrewers will keep their kettle burner on low to keep the temperature of the wort elevated above (93 °C) during their extended hop stands which would better emulate the conditions in commercial whirlpools.


Does that clear it up? 

At those temps you get essential oils and _some_ alpha acid isomerisation (ie IBUs, about 5-15% of what you would if you added the same hop addition to boiling wort). 

Personally I'm more interested in the different hop stand temperature ranges, and like you I only bother with 10-15 stands at any of these temps. (I'd just throw more hops at it rather than leave them longer).


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## technobabble66 (23/9/15)

@pcmax:
In terms of how long you leave your 0mins additions, i'd throw them in, stir, let it sit for 10mins (lid off), stir & whirlpool, sit for another 10mins, then drain. (Should be the equivalent of a ~10mins boil, maybe).

It also depends on whether you want the 0mins additions to add bitterness (then leaving it while hot is fine); or if you already got lots of bitterness coming from elsewhere and you're trying to minimise the bitterness derived from this particular addition (in which case you want to get the temp below 80°C as fast as possible -- maybe another process step for another time; keep the first brew simple!).
Basically, either is fine, but you need to account for it. Are you using any brewing software, like ianh's spreadsheet? If not, you need to - even if it's just to start getting a better idea of how you recipe goes together.
if you're following someone else's recipe, have they accounted for the bittering the hops-stand & whirlpool will cause? (if it's say, DrSmurto's Golden Ale, i believe his recipe does already account for this).

With the whirlpool (especially if you use Irish Moss, etc), the crud (normally) sits in a nice cone at the bottom of the kettle. You might suck a little up at the very end, but that's no biggie, so long as it's not too much. Unfortunately if you use lots of (late) hops, there might be a lots of crud & hops debris sitting at the bottom, but the same still applies.



@Whitegoose & Kaiserben, I know you'd know all this, but just waxing lyrical here for a sec or 3:
(I think) There is a big potential for confusion in new brewers in terms of the ambiguous way people talk about "hoppy" beers.
Many people (particularly the more "old skool" brewers/references) seem to refer to "hoppy" beers when talking about the more bitter beers (i.e.: bitter from the alpha acid resins); whereas the (newer) styles of beers that other people refer to as "hoppy" are more specifically talking about all the hoppy flavours & aromas (i.e.: from the oils). Some styles also typically utilise some of both (e.g.: APAs & AIPAs).
This then gets really confusing when you look at how to achieve these 2 different elements - all of which involves using (larger) amounts of hops, but at very different specific times in the boil. Namely, longer boil times produce more bitterness but loses the flavour/aroma, whereas shorter time produce less bitterness but more flavour/aroma.
FWIW, many people try to maximise the hops flavours/aromas by throwing in as many hops as they can, so dumping truckloads in at 0-20mins still eventually delivers a fair whack of bitterness anyway, so it becomes a bit moot for those beers (e.g.: again, APAs & AIPAs).
But basically i'd agree with what Whitegoose was saying. Ultimately i'd say that, today, hops forward beers are ones that have both lots of hops flavours/aromas plus typically lots of bitterness and hence have lots of late hops additions (0-20mins); whereas low/no hops-present beers tend to use just a small amount at 60-90mins - hence no flavour/aroma but anywhere from a minimal to a large bitterness.
2c


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## danestead (24/9/15)

What technobabble said above! Good post!

To reiterate, because I've had issues with it before, if you aren't chilling with an immersion chiller immediately at flameout, and u r using large late additions of hops, you need to account for it in your ibu calculations. I chill from boiling wort to 70 degrees in 3minutes which reduces the bittering potential of flame out hops by about 15 times. I've ended up with beers far too bitter when I didn't do that. It doesn't mean you have to chill immediately, but if u don't, make sure you allow for the extra bitterness you will get.


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## kunfaced (24/9/15)

I have a SMaSH Kolsch days away from bottling. The only hop additions were at flame out. Using an immersion chiller, at 95c for 15 minutes, 100g of Sylva. At 60c for 15 minutes 100g Sylva. During the 15 minute steeps I keep a whirlpool going with my stirrer. The airlock smelt like juicy mandarins the entire ferment. 

My last few brews have all had the same flame out schedule with different quantities of hops, and other boil additions. The IPA's turned out so much better than I expected. This is the way I will always do it from now on.


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## Coodgee (24/9/15)

I have been thinking about this issue a lot lately; specifically that Beersmith calculates the IBU contribution from 2 minute hop additions only for the 2 minutes that they are boiled and doesn't consider the time the wort sits between 99 and 80 degrees. This is fine if you are adding 10 grams of low alpha hops for instance at 2 minutes, but I am adding 90 grams of Simcoe and other high alpha hops. I reckon a lot of people, myself included would have been brewing much more bitter beers than they thought in times gone by. The argument that "it's all an estimate anyway so who cares about the IBU contribution after flame out" is not valid in my opinion; I like to try to get the best estimate possible and failing to take into account the IBU contribution after flame out can't be the most accurate estimate (if it's correcting for under estimation in other areas then I would think we should adjust for that separately!). 

So I thought about 2 strategies - one being to simply remove the hops at the flame out mark (using a hop bag) and then replace them in the wort once it cools below 80 degrees. The second option is to let beersmith2 calculate an IBU contribution from a 15 minute whirlpool addition, subtract the calculated 2 minute boil IBU contribution from this figure, and then add this adjusted whirlpool IBU contribution onto the boil IBU contributions. 

of course all this is moot if you have brewed a recipe before and liked the result - who cares what the calculated IBU is if you are happy with your beer. But I am brewing a new recipe for a party so I don't want my beer to be more bitter than an ex wife.


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## Rocker1986 (24/9/15)

I must admit, I've never bothered to adjust my hop additions for no-chiling, and none of my beers has ever turned out more bitter than I was expecting when I compiled the recipes. That being said, I've never chilled a batch, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but as long as they keep turning out as expected I see no need to change anything.

I didn't even know about this adjustment theory when I first began AG, and even though I'm now aware of it, I think there are a lot of variables that affect it, and the best way around it is to simply work out what works best for your own tastes and stick with that. There is no "one size fits all".


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## kaiserben (24/9/15)

Coodgee said:


> ... that Beersmith calculates the IBU contribution from 2 minute hop additions only for the 2 minutes that they are boiled and doesn't consider the time the wort sits between 99 and 80 degrees.


Is that true? I think Beersmith adds IBUs for Hop Stands (ie after flame out) at what I assume would be somewhere between 5-15% utilisation, so would have thought it would take into account. 

So I find it a problem coming from the other direction; if I want to add a hop stand at any temp below 80C I can't plug it in BeerSmith as a hop stand becuase it'll assume >80C and 5-15% utilisation.


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## Coodgee (24/9/15)

If you add hops as a boil addition and set 0 minutes it computes 0 IBU. If you set 1 minute it only calcs an ibu contribution for 1 minute of boiling. But if you set a zero minute addition as "whirlpool" for 15 minutes it will do the calcs for the post boil ibu contribution. You should have a setup option in gear setup that asks you how long it takes to chill your wort to 80 degrees and then use this in the ibu calculation. Would be especially handy for no chill brewers.


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## wobbly (24/9/15)

Coodgee said:


> You should have a setup option in gear setup that asks you how long it takes to chill your wort to 80 degrees and then use this in the ibu calculation.


Where in Beersmith2 do you actually find this 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Mardoo (24/9/15)

When you add or alter the hops amount there's a pull-down menu that includes "steep". Choose that and then the amount of time.


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## Coodgee (24/9/15)

I meant it would be nice to have such an option


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## Barge (24/9/15)

The thing I don't understand here is that, if I add hops late in the boil, say 10 minutes to go, then no-chill in the cube, the isomerisation apparently continues. I get the logic, the wort stays hotter for longer, etc. But the hops are left in the kettle with the rest of the trub, aren't they? How can they continue to add bitterness in the cube if they're not in there?


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## glenwal (24/9/15)

Barge said:


> How can they continue to add bitterness in the cube if they're not in there?


It's the oils that are released from the hops that continue to add bitterness, not the green matter that's left behind in the pot.


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## Blind Dog (24/9/15)

Not the oils per se, but the isomerisation of them by heat. Pulling the hops out will often reduce bitterness compared to leaving them in as the oils are not released instantaneously, but over time. The only way to stop isomerisation and therefore continued addition of bitterness is to chill the wort (and time as you approach the limit of isomerisation)

Utilisation (percentage of potential bitterness extracted) declines as the temperature declines, and rate of isomerisation declines with time. There are lots of other factors in play as well.

IMO it’s better to brew a beer, taste, tweak and repeat to dial in a recipe rather than get too stuck trying to work out a particular factor precisely. There are a lot of variables that will affect actual and apparent bitterness and they’ll vary from brew to brew, system to system, brewer to brewer and consumer to consumer.



Brewing is a mix of art and science sprinkled with unabashed optimism. 

(edit for clarity)


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## Barge (24/9/15)

Makes sense. The oils that are extracted continue to be isomerised.

I haven't noticed much difference, personally, between chilling and no-chilling but TBH I haven't brewed a side-by-side for comparison. 

I was only wondering because I made an extract with grain batch the other week and planned a 10 minute addition. When transferring to the cube it occured to me that I might not get the bitterness I wanted so I transferred the lot to the cube. Initial tastes suggest that the beer is not overly bitter. Would be interesting to see how different it would be if I left the hops behind.


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## kaiserben (25/9/15)

Coodgee said:


> If you add hops as a boil addition and set 0 minutes it computes 0 IBU. If you set 1 minute it only calcs an ibu contribution for 1 minute of boiling. But if you set a zero minute addition as "whirlpool" for 15 minutes it will do the calcs for the post boil ibu contribution. You should have a setup option in gear setup that asks you how long it takes to chill your wort to 80 degrees and then use this in the ibu calculation. Would be especially handy for no chill brewers.


You're spot on. And it shouldn't even be an option; it should be automatic, in-built in the software.


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## pcmax (26/9/15)

kaiserben said:


> You're spot on. And it shouldn't even be an option; it should be automatic, in-built in the software.


Maybe you more knowledgeable guys could post this question/request for software update on the Beersmith forum related to Beersmith 2 software questions.
http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?board=21.0
You never know it might be an easy update for the programmers to plug in.


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## wobbly (26/9/15)

See Kaiser's comments/post on page 2 of this topic http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57700&sid=61a0fa804c3990a5a3c94b66b12cbdd3&start=15 and if I'm reading it correctly assuming the same whirlpool/steep contact time (which isn't stated) it appears that you get the same BU (Bitterness Units) contribution at 60C, 70C, 80C and 90C. 

So (as stated) if I am understanding what he has posted it would appear that for a given g/lt of hop addition post boil will give almost the same bitterness unit for a range of temperatures at or under 90C

Maybe I am reading it wrong, would be interested in what others think

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/9/15)

Back in the old days when I never had a PC to work out my recipe.....


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## manticle (26/9/15)

Them days you were glad to av price for cup o' tea
Wi'out milk
Or sugar
Or tea


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/9/15)

and had to lick road clean


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## manticle (26/9/15)

At least your gravel was hot


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## welly2 (27/9/15)

You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o'clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out. When we got home, our Dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt.


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## danestead (27/9/15)

wobbly said:


> See Kaiser's comments/post on page 2 of this topic http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57700&sid=61a0fa804c3990a5a3c94b66b12cbdd3&start=15 and if I'm reading it correctly assuming the same whirlpool/steep contact time (which isn't stated) it appears that you get the same BU (Bitterness Units) contribution at 60C, 70C, 80C and 90C.
> 
> So (as stated) if I am understanding what he has posted it would appear that for a given g/lt of hop addition post boil will give almost the same bitterness unit for a range of temperatures at or under 90C
> 
> ...


I use the following figures to work out the IBU's of hop additions at temperatures below 100 degrees. A smart bloke on this forum did all the maths, so credit goes to him. I forget his name or the thread. So I guess I disagree with the statement that anything below 90 degrees gives the same IBU's. The reason I disagree is just because, and that I think that it is more logical for less utilisation the colder the wort gets.

The following percentages are the percentage of IBU's compared to a boil addition. For example, if you did a 15 minute whirlpool with hops at 80 degrees, enter into your brewing software a 15 minute boil addition and multiply it by 18%. That's the IBU's extracted at 80 degrees.

Temp/Isomerisation compared to boiling
100 100%
95 66%
90 43%
85 28%
80 18%
75 11%
70 7%


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## nosco (28/9/15)

Some good info here

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=150&t=2215


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## wobbly (28/9/15)

Qldkev did some work on this and can be found here http://qldkev.net/nochill.php including a calculator that you can use to input your numbers 

Cheers

Wobbly


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