# All Grain - is it substantially better beer?



## Thomas Wood (10/1/19)

I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.

I can knock over a perfectly adequate and tasty extract brew day in an hour after work. Will spending 5+ hours using a robobrew (and the cost in buying one) really make beer that is chalk and cheese better and completely justifies the time/cost?

This is probably a really dumb and obvious question to most, but I really want to be sure as I am quite happy with the beers I have been making recently. 

I already have a kegerator, 3x kegs and a fermentation fridge, so this is really the last jump for me. Cheers


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## Nullnvoid (10/1/19)

If you are happy with what you are producing then why change? It sounds like you have it all sorted!

I jumped into all grain and I find the time fairly therapeutic (between running around after the kids) but it's each to their own. 

I have a mate who just does fresh wort kits and he is happy doing that. 

My advice only


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## Tex083 (10/1/19)

I enjoy the beers I make as an all grain brewer. I only used kit and kilo before and the difference is huge. 
If you are wondering maybe do a couple of partial mashed, see if the beer quality improves to your taste. 
Maybe brew one of your extract brews on a friends all grain system and see if you like it. Or try a fresh work kit from the LHBS that is an all grain brew done for you


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## Hpal (10/1/19)

Agree, Fresh Wort Kits are the go. I brew AG but can see the attraction in fresh kits, close to all grain quality with little effort or equipment or time investment, probably quicker than extract kits, you can't go wrong!


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## altone (10/1/19)

Before Xmas I would have jumped in and said yes it's way better, but due to lack of time I've done a couple of kits and bits and am happy with the results.

Sure, all grain gives you way more options in creating a unique brew, but if you just want a decent pale ale and you're happy with what you're doing now, well.....

Having said that, once I have some time again I'll be back to all grain.


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## pnorkle (10/1/19)

Like most, I started out with K&K, but wasn't overly happy with the results - sure, most of them were "ok," but I figured I could do better. So I tried my hand at unhopped extract, (which I think is what you're referring to?) adding my own hops & what have you, it lengthened the brew day somewhat, but the results were far better - something I was really happy with. But, me being me, and not wanting to do things by half measures, went all-grain.

Of course, now I'm looking at around a 5 hour brew day, and I've spent substantial funds getting to the point I'm now at (and I still have a long way to go, only recently starting to dabble in water additions, etc.) But I think it's worth it. As someone above has said, you could borrow someone else's gear to get a feel for it, or as many have done with excellent results, you could try BIAB along with no-chill - it would substantially reduce the costs involved in getting set up.

Anyway. That's my .03c worth.


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## dibbz (10/1/19)

k&k < unhopped extract < fwk < biab < gf/3v < fresh jammers


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## Markbeer (11/1/19)

Before you buy any gear really have a think about the 5 hour brew day for a single batch.

I don't think it's worth it for one keg's worth. 5 hours is a lot of time for 2 cases.

I do a 75 litre all grain batch. Takes 6 or even 7 hours, but for me 4 kegs in one day is worth the time.

As for the taste, you get accustomed to a certain quality. I am more often than not dissatisfied with commercial or micro beers. But if you are happy why change. 

All grain equipment really isn't that dear, but the space to store everything becomes an issue. 



Thomas Wood said:


> I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.
> 
> I can knock over a perfectly adequate and tasty extract brew day in an hour after work. Will spending 5+ hours using a robobrew (and the cost in buying one) really make beer that is chalk and cheese better and completely justifies the time/cost?
> 
> ...


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## brewermp (11/1/19)

Taste is subjective. As others have said if you are enjoying your beer then why change.

What I have learnt is that if you change your process be ready to have some headaches and potentially bad beer whilst you learn the new skill.

I have a robobrew and enjoy brewing in it. But have had to learn how to use it effectively.

Then comes the fun of getting a mill crushing your grain well lol.

Would I do it again... He’ll yeah I like the time away from the screen so a 4hr day including cleanup is enjoyable for me. There is also this pride is saying I went from grain to glass [emoji846]


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## ABG (11/1/19)

@Thomas Wood I was in pretty much the same position that you're in right now last year. I bought a R3 and haven't regretted it for a second. 

As others have said, you can buy fresh wort kits from your LHBS to see how much difference there is in quality - try one and you can let your taste buds decide. 

Like all things, there are pros and cons. Going AG is going to mean a lot of your spare time is going to vanish. It's _way_ more time consuming. Plus there's the smell factor - my partner turns her nose up every time I brew and I'm brewing in a garage 2 floors below our apartment.

The biggest drag without a doubt, is having to clean all of your gear at the end of a brew day. I'm normally pretty knackered by the end of a brew day and having to clean up my gear sucks - there's no other way to put it.

On the plus side, for me a brew day becomes a social event as all my neighbours stick their head in to say g'day and see what the latest brew is. I normally wash my cars while the mash is going. I've got a decent gym in my garage as well, so I get to knock out a workout while the boil is going. 

For me, the biggest benefit of AG brewing is the ability to control exactly what you want. I equate it to cooking. You can make a great curry from a curry paste. You can also make a great curry starting from scratch using your own spices. For some people (including me), the extra time and effort of selecting and buying your own spices, grinding them on a mortar and pestle and making your own curry is totally worthwhile. It's the ability to make small tweaks to suit your own taste buds that's the key factor for me, but everyone is different as are their circumstances.

Regardless of whether you continue using K&K or switch to AG, you'll still be making great beer.


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## Thomas Wood (11/1/19)

Thanks everyone for the replies, I appreciate it. I have tried a FWK in the past and I didn't like it that much, but I think it was my taste buds as a few of my mates thought it was my best beer yet (at the time) haha. Maybe I should try another. I also don't have any mates who homebrew (yet).

As I enjoy brewing as it is, I guess spending those extra hours really crafting down on a recipe or making something from the Brew Dog PDF is starting to sound more appealing to me.

@ABG it's good to hear your thoughts as someone who was in the same position.



ABG said:


> I've got a decent gym in my garage as well, so I get to knock out a workout while the boil is going.



I have a good home gym as well, so being able to occupy myself close to the brew is not a bad idea!



Markbeer said:


> I don't think it's worth it for one keg's worth. 5 hours is a lot of time for 2 cases.
> 
> I do a 75 litre all grain batch. Takes 6 or even 7 hours, but for me 4 kegs in one day is worth the time.



Yeh this was the biggest thing for me, but I really don't think I have the space for such a large system. None of my house mates drink beer as it is.

I'm 90% convinced I am going to get a Robobrew (or another system) in the next couple of months. I just wanted to get that extra push and thoughts from some people.

Cheers.


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## shacked (11/1/19)

What sort of beer do you like to make? If you are keen on hop forward beers then perhaps staying with extract + steeping grains might be the play!

If you are looking to make Belgian styles, Hefe, Rye Beers and German styles (for example) all grain is really the only way to go. Extract doesn't allow you to control mash temp (which impacts the types of sugar that you extract from the grain) or readily control the proportionate quantities of base malt (so you might want to make a wheat beer that is 80% wheat malt; most extract is around the 50% mark, so that's going to be hard to do).

You can always start with a stove top mini-mash. Mash a few kilos of malt in a pot 'brew in a bag' style and use pale extract to get to your desired gravity. This will give you a very low cost opportunity to give the principles and process of all grain brewing a go.

I suggest you look around the Newcastle area for a homebrew club and go an meet some local homebrewers. They can help you with system choice, recipes etc.

Also, remember as brewers all we do is make hop flavored sugar. It is the yeast that turns all that into delicious beer. Focus on sanitation, temp control and yeast health regardless of how the sugar is produced in the first instance.


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## mongey (11/1/19)

I am 10 batches deep into the swap to AG after 4 or so years or extracts and kits

It is a much bigger time sink but I enjoy the process and I do think the beers I’m
Making are better overall. I worked as a cook for a couple years and really enjoy cooking so get satisfaction from. starting the process from Scratch. So the time sink is worth it to
Me.


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## pcmfisher (11/1/19)

I think its a time thing and also what type of beers you like.
You can make perfectly acceptable bitter, hoppy beers with unbittered extract. Or maybe even kits if your taste isn't too particular. But for low body, low bittered, low hop styles I reckon grain brewing is the only way to go.


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## 5teve (11/1/19)

AG may be a 5 hour brew day, but it's not like you're actually physically spending 5 hours nonstop molly coddling it along.

Realistically its more something like :
- Fill with strike water
- Have a beer, or go do something else for 20 mins while waiting for strike temp
- Mash in, stir etc
- Have a couple beers, or go do something else for 60-90 mins whatever while it mashes
- Mast out / sparge / etc
- Have a beer, or go do something else 20 mins while waiting to reach boil, or clean mash pipe / mash tun etc
- Periodically add hop additions, whirfloc etc
- Have a couple beers, or go do something else for most of the boil 60-90 min whatever when not making additions
- Whirlpool
- Have a beer, or go do something else / start cleaning stuff / prepare fermenter etc
- Cube if no-chillin', or chill and transfer to fermenter and pitch
- Clean up

If you're boiling and hopping unhopped extract you're already doing half the steps as it is, just with AG it's spread over 5 hours rather than 1 and there's a bit more work and bit more cleaning.


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## Tony121 (11/1/19)

shacked said:


> Also, remember as brewers all we do is make hop flavored sugar. It is the yeast that turns all that into delicious beer. Focus on sanitation, temp control and yeast health regardless of how the sugar is produced in the first instance.



100%

If you don’t look after the yeast it doesn’t matter which way you go.


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## JDW81 (11/1/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.



You don't have to spend thousands on flash gear to make excellent all grain beer. Many an award winning beer has been made with nothing more than an urn, a large bag and a cube to transfer the wort into. 

My first AG system cost about $150 all up, and made some of my best brews with it. 

Things like robobrew/braumeister/grainfather are all good bits of kit, but they don't make better all grain beer (or are necessarily more time efficient) than simple 1, 2 or 3 vessel systems. You are often also limited with size, which means you can only fill 1 keg at a time.

Does AG brewing make beer that is 100x better than kit beer? IMHO no (if you take care of sanitation, yeast population and temperature control) . The one thing AG brewing gives you over kits, extract and wort kits is flexibility to change recipes according to your taste. 

Have you done any grain brewing on a friends system? Might be worthwhile trying to jump in on a few other brew days with grain brewers, to see if you like the process.

JD


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## goatchop41 (11/1/19)

dibbz said:


> k&k < unhopped extract < fwk < biab < gf/3v



What a load of bollocks that end part is...BIAB, GF/Guten/RB and 3V all make the exact same beer, of the exact same quality


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## wide eyed and legless (11/1/19)

I really do try to ignore aggressive replies, and you have put up some good posts goatchop, but it is the yeast that makes the beer. If the OP is happy is what he is producing and to me it seems that time and space could be a problem, just keep doing what you are doing until in time he can go into all grain, or as others have suggested try out on some one elses rig.


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## ben_sa (11/1/19)

I am guessing $ isn't an issue... One thing (not the #1 reason) that I love about AG brewing, is the cost. The main reason is tinkering with recipes, and making absolutely unique beers.

I buy sacks of base malt for $40 delivered (here in SA we do regular bulk buys). So that is $1.60 per kg. Also try to buy hops in bulk (but you would be buying hops already).

When I was extract brewing and buying hops in small amounts, it wasn't THAT much cheaper than buying megaswill tbh...


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## goatchop41 (11/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I really do try to ignore aggressive replies, and you have put up some good posts goatchop, but it is the yeast that makes the beer. If the OP is happy is what he is producing and to me it seems that time and space could be a problem, just keep doing what you are doing until in time he can go into all grain, or as others have suggested try out on some one elses rig.



*wort

Happy? The point still stands. The premise that 3V or the All-In-Ones produce better wort than BIAB is silly. The AI1s are virtually just BIAB but the bag is a metal pipe instead.
This is relevant for the OP, as they could get in to all grain easily by going out and getting a good BIAB setup for peanuts, as opposed to shelling out for AI1 or 3V system. If they listened to bollocks like what that user had said, then they would think that good all grain wort requires an expensive setup to produce, and may be scared away from it


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## AndySmith (11/1/19)

I'll put a different spin on it with a question, might seem strange but bear with me.

Do you cook? If so what type of cook are you? The kind that grabs a kit adds the meat and veg cooks it up and makes a perfectly adequate meal? Or are you one that reads a bunch recipes and likes to experiment to make something from scratch, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but part of it is the experience?

Both are perfectly fine, just horses for courses. I suspect if you are the latter AG is for you, if not just keep on doing what you are doing, it clearly works for you


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## krz (11/1/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it........



Yeah, its worth it.
Think about fresh bread vs yesterdays bread, notice a difference?

I havent been All grain that long, about 6 months, but the results are astounding.
I brewed fresh wort for about 3 years using SS Brewtech and temp control, good yeast etc....
I was happy with the taste.

When I finally moved to all grain, I was convinced after the first brew.
Extremely better. I look forward to each "next brew day"


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## MHB (12/1/19)

Scope - That's what AG gives you, a couple of replies have touched on it pretty well talking about cooking or baking. My favorite is its like coffee, you an instant or an espresso man?
Instant gets the job done but I have a baby espresso machine, I can go and bother a couple of local roasters (you think AG brewers are a bunch of obsessed monomaniacs - try coffee roasters...) I can play around with the same beans roasted differently - well that's another whole thread, if not forum.

Scope is also a two way street, you can go to some pretty amazing places, but you can screw the pooch pretty royally to. You get more options and control, but you have to use more skill and knowledge, its a fun journey if its one you want to take.
Mark

goatchop41
I don't agree, the modern iteration of BIAB was developed as a "cheap" alternative to (mainly) the Braumeister.
Unless you can get the same step mash and programable features that the better all in 1 units bring, BIAB is at best a poor second choice. Not saying you cant make good, even great beer with pretty basic equipment - you can!
If you want to be able to reproduce a recipe, maybe make minor tweaks in pursuit of perfection, nothing beats a BM.
3V or other more evolved systems give you options that you simply don't get with a basic BIAB setup.

I would recommend to anyone starting out in AG, that BIAB is a great starting point, learn the basics see if its a hobby for you.
But BIAB is far from the be all and end all option.
M


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## goatchop41 (12/1/19)

MHB said:


> I don't agree, the modern iteration of BIAB was developed as a "cheap" alternative to (mainly) the Braumeister.
> Unless you can get the same step mash and programable features that the better all in 1 units bring, BIAB is at best a poor second choice. Not saying you cant make good, even great beer with pretty basic equipment - you can!
> If you want to be able to reproduce a recipe, maybe make minor tweaks in pursuit of perfection, nothing beats a BM.
> 3V or other more evolved systems give you options that you simply don't get with a basic BIAB setup.
> ...



You're conflating two different issues here - the quality of the wort and the ease of producing the wort.

I absolutely agree that my Guten is much more pleasurable and easy to use than the BIAB with an urn that I was doing previously, but the OP's question was _does it make better beer?_ (and by extension of that, does it make better wort?). The answer to that question is that no, 3V and AI1s don't inherently make better wort/beer - they make the exact same product, it's just easier on an AI1 (and actually harder/more time consuming on 3V). There's very few things that you can't do with a BIAB setup (particularly electric) - you can step mash, you can kettle sour, you can do reiterated mashes, you can recirculate if you really want to.
As I said, I agree that AI1s they make the brewing process easier, but do you truly believe that AI1s or 3V systems inherently make a superior wort to a BIAB setup?

(P.S. Nowhere was it stated that BIAB was a be all and end all option. Merely that it is capable of exactly the same production quality of higher end systems, at a fraction of the price)


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## goatchop41 (12/1/19)

@MHB has hit the nail of the head with the scope part of it.
Using kits limits your options when it comes to controlling fermentability, control over all elements of your grain bill, tweaking recipes to suit your personal taste, etc. All grain just gives you the theoretical ability to control pretty much every aspect of the wort that you are going to use to make your beer


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## koshari (12/1/19)

There is another option to explore which gives you some of the best of both worlds and what i have basically settled on tor the last 12 monts. And that is partial grain brewing. I pretty much use cans for my bitterness and then add steeped crystal malt / roasted barly and make up the rest with dry malt extract. I also dry hop my pales with a cascade and galaxy mix.

I find steeping grain adds a heap more body, flavour and head retention.

Ians brewing spreadsheet is a great guide to get close to particular styles.


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## AJ80 (12/1/19)

My two cents would be to buy a $20 19L stainless pot from Big W and a BIAB bag from one of the sponsors. That's enough equipment to brew small AG batches BIAB style (12-13L). Brew 2 or 3 batches and work out if the resulting beer is worth your time and effort. If not, you've not spent much money. If yes, this is equipment you'll keep on using regardless. I think it's worthwhile trialling things before taking the plunge and buying an all in one vessel. 

The big plus of AG is the control you'll have over your recipe development. You'll be able to make very fine tweaks to recipes that K&K or extract brewers just can't. That's really only if you're interested in the creative side of brewing. I've had many many fantastic K&K and extract beers in the past. Sanitation, yeast pitch rate and controlling the fermentation are more important than how you obtain your extract (mash or tins of goo).


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## chesl73 (12/1/19)

AJ80 said:


> My two cents would be to buy a $20 19L stainless pot from Big W and a BIAB bag from one of the sponsors. That's enough equipment to brew small AG batches BIAB style (12-13L). Brew 2 or 3 batches and work out if the resulting beer is worth your time and effort. If not, you've not spent much money. If yes, this is equipment you'll keep on using regardless. I think it's worthwhile trialling things before taking the plunge and buying an all in one vessel.
> 
> The big plus of AG is the control you'll have over your recipe development. You'll be able to make very fine tweaks to recipes that K&K or extract brewers just can't. That's really only if you're interested in the creative side of brewing. I've had many many fantastic K&K and extract beers in the past. Sanitation, yeast pitch rate and controlling the fermentation are more important than how you obtain your extract (mash or tins of goo).


I second this recommendation. I did a few kit beers and just didn't like it much, as a mate said, they have that 'home brew' taste. So I bought the above mentioned 19L cheap pot with a grain bag and a few bits and pieces and never looked back. Just do it on the stove top and taste the difference. Difference is massive in my view. Could only brew about 10L of beer so after a few years moved to a 1 vessel system (Guten) which is easier, brews more beer and I don't get splashes of hot wort baked into the stove... missus was never happy with that!


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## DU99 (12/1/19)

with all grain the amount of selection of grain's/hops and the forum's that are available for help people should be getting a better beer.If you bit sloppy/lax in making AG regardless of process/equipment of cause it will be sub standard..


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## yankinoz (13/1/19)

goatchop41
I don't agree, the modern iteration of BIAB was developed as a "cheap" alternative to (mainly) the Braumeister.
Unless you can get the same step mash and programable features that the better all in 1 units bring, BIAB is at best a poor second choice. Not saying you cant make good, even great beer with pretty basic equipment - you can!
If you want to be able to reproduce a recipe, maybe make minor tweaks in pursuit of perfection, nothing beats a BM.
3V or other more evolved systems give you options that you simply don't get with a basic BIAB setup.

With BIAB step mashes are more work than in a Braumeister, but not by much. Mash in the kettle. For long rests I put it in an insulated box.Use a colander ring below the bag. Use direct heat to raise temperature. Alternatively, hot water or decoction mashes can be done much the same way as in a Braumeister. 

Okay, it's not programmable short of jerry-rigging some sort of controls.

One potential quality drawback of BIAB is that it would be hard to exclude oxygen throughout. I sometimes use Campden tablets in the mash water


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## philrob (13/1/19)

Does it matter?
You make beer either way.
If you are happy, that's what I call a result.
OK, well, if you want to enter your beers in competitions, you most likely you will need to go to All Grain, because a kit brew never was, and never will be, Best in Show.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/1/19)

With today's modified malts the question would be is a step mash really necessary, my brew rigs have programmable steps but I now never use them. As an enthusiastic home brewer with a newly acquired BM I used to step mash, 4 or 5 steps, never bother now as Randy Mosher says in one of his books it can lead to more troubles than advantages. 


philrob said:


> Does it matter?
> You make beer either way.
> If you are happy, that's what I call a result.
> OK, well, if you want to enter your beers in competitions, you most likely you will need to go to All Grain, because a kit brew never was, and never will be, Best in Show.


They do have comps for the best kit beer, they can be tweaked up to be very presentable, though never bothered myself. But as you say happiness is in the eyes of the beer holder, kit or otherwise.


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## Doctor Jay (13/1/19)

I think it’s worth it. The way I look at it is it’s like the difference between packet mix cakes and home made cakes. Packet mixes are good, but home made, when done right are way better and more rewarding.


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## Nick667 (13/1/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.
> 
> I can knock over a perfectly adequate and tasty extract brew day in an hour after work. Will spending 5+ hours using a robobrew (and the cost in buying one) really make beer that is chalk and cheese better and completely justifies the time/cost?
> 
> ...








I brewed for decades on and off kit and kilo stuff and in later life ( sigh! ) I got back into it with the goal of making it taste better or I would just toss the whole lot in the bin. So I started with kits again and then extracts, liquid malts ect. and finally landed on a really basic BIAB system for not much money as I feel this is a factor and many people spend a lot of money on this hobby.
I guess that I have now run something close to 100 AG brews through and tweaked it here and there and usually get a really good product to the point that friends and others cant believe that it is ' home brew ' ,I have even been asked if I want to sell it and that has to .be the ultimate compliment. So for me it has been worth it and it grown into an amazing hobby that I really enjoy. I can troll the internet for any type of beer that comes to mind as apposed to trolling the shelves looking for a can that might suit.
Also I mash in the avo or evening and do the boil the next morning so it doesnt have to be a major time waster.
Hope it helps a bit.


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## Dozer71 (13/1/19)

yankinoz said:


> One potential quality drawback of BIAB is that it would be hard to exclude oxygen throughout. I sometimes use Campden tablets in the mash water


The oxygen exposure is not a big deal at that stage as boiling gets rid of a lot of it - hence oxygenating prior to pitching yeast. Also, the exposure to oxygen is no different from BIAB to BM (just a fancy BIAB) and probably less than 3V as not transferring the wort between vessels.
Campden tablets help get rid of the chlorine/chloromines.


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## Hermies (14/1/19)

philrob said:


> Does it matter?
> You make beer either way.
> If you are happy, that's what I call a result.
> OK, well, if you want to enter your beers in competitions, you most likely you will need to go to All Grain, because a kit brew never was, and never will be, Best in Show.


what about a kit and a kilo would that win a prize in a beer comp ?


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## PaulS (14/1/19)

The big advantage with all-grain brewing is you have complete control over the production of the wort. You can control temperature and thereby control the fermentability of the wort. If you do a brew and feel it could do with a little more body for example, next time you brew it you can increase the temperature slightly and see if that gives you the beer you were after. If you are brewing with extract or a pre-made wort, you have no control over that, it has already been done for you.

There are a few comments in books and articles about medal winning beers that were brewed with extract, but they would be in the minority I would think.

Don't forget too that all-grain brewing and kit brewing are at either end of a scale, they aren't simply the only two options. Just because you don't do all-grain doesn't mean you have to use an off the shelf kit. You can still make up your own recipe, or try someone else's, simply by replacing the base malt and mash with extract, steep the specialty grains instead of mashing them (some brewers do this even with an all-grain mash), and the rest of the process is the same.


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## Doctor Jay (14/1/19)

yankinoz said:


> One potential quality drawback of BIAB is that it would be hard to exclude oxygen throughout. I sometimes use Campden tablets in the mash water


This is irrelevant, you want to add oxygen into the wort to help the yeast feed.


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## 5teve (15/1/19)

Doctor Jay said:


> This is irrelevant, you want to add oxygen into the wort to help the yeast feed.



It is relevant if you are practicing low dissolved oxygen (LODO) brewing techniques through the entire brewing process.


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## PaulS (15/1/19)

Doctor Jay said:


> This is irrelevant, you want to add oxygen into the wort to help the yeast feed.



Yes you do, but that shouldn't happen at the mash stage. You should be avoiding adding too much oxygen at the mash stage to avoid creating any oxidation, and any oxygen that is introduced during the mash will be driven off by the boil so won't be available to the yeast anyway. Once the wort is cooled and ready to go into the fermenter is the time to oxygenate for the benefit of the yeast, not before.


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## wide eyed and legless (15/1/19)

PaulS said:


> Yes you do, but that shouldn't happen at the mash stage. You should be avoiding adding too much oxygen at the mash stage to avoid creating any oxidation, and any oxygen that is introduced during the mash will be driven off by the boil so won't be available to the yeast anyway. Once the wort is cooled and ready to go into the fermenter is the time to oxygenate for the benefit of the yeast, not before.


Oxygen does not always benefit the yeast, to much and the yeast suffers oxidative stress, another factor is how long does the DO remain in the wort, is it in there long enough for the yeast to sort itself out and use up the oxygen put in? Some strains of yeast require no oxygen.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen


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## PaulS (17/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Oxygen does not always benefit the yeast, to much and the yeast suffers oxidative stress, another factor is how long does the DO remain in the wort, is it in there long enough for the yeast to sort itself out and use up the oxygen put in? Some strains of yeast require no oxygen.
> https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen


Fascinating article WEAL, thanks for posting. The bottom line still seems to be that aeration of wort prior to, or just after, pitching yeast is beneficial in most cases, just not for the same reasons some brewing texts suggest. Some very interesting information worth remembering when it comes to bigger beers though, where it might not be wise to aerate depending on the beer being brewed. Cheers.


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## captnhaddock (17/1/19)

koshari said:


> There is another option to explore which gives you some of the best of both worlds and what i have basically settled on tor the last 12 monts. And that is partial grain brewing. I pretty much use cans for my bitterness and then add steeped crystal malt / roasted barly and make up the rest with dry malt extract. I also dry hop my pales with a cascade and galaxy mix.
> 
> I find steeping grain adds a heap more body, flavour and head retention.
> 
> Ians brewing spreadsheet is a great guide to get close to particular styles.



I wanted to second Koshari's recommendation. Coming from a Yank's perspective (where pre-bittered malt is not the norm), most extract kits are really partial grain in nature, and provide the level of flexibility / or scope even that AG brewers are aiming for. I can brew up a batch in two hours and be quit of it before my wife even bothers to fuss me (that includes set up / steeping the grains / racking to fermenter and cleanup)..


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## Tricky Dicky (17/1/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.
> 
> I can knock over a perfectly adequate and tasty extract brew day in an hour after work. Will spending 5+ hours using a robobrew (and the cost in buying one) really make beer that is chalk and cheese better and completely justifies the time/cost?
> 
> ...


After dabbling with homebrewing 30 some years ago (all k+k) I started homebrewing again a few months ago and started with k+k and that taste/flavour reminded of what I produced all those years ago, it's quite a distinct flavour, not necessarily bad but a memorable "homebrew" flavour. So I decided to change to partial grain and extract and found a BIAB process of using 19L Big W pot with 2.5-3 kg grain (base and adjunct grains combined ) I then add a dry extract to make up the difference in the amount of base malt I need. In conjunction with this I started using Beersmith software to help with all the calculations that balance out the % of adjunct malts I need for a recipe and the amount of dry extract required to meet the base malt needed. Also the IBU level, final abv% (I don't like beers too strong so I find the ability to control this essential) can be tweaked like everything else e.g maltyness etc so there is a lot of flexibility almost as much as AG I would think. The time spent to brew is similar to AG but I reckon the taste is much better and the flexibility is endless but the cost for this set up was only $20-30 for the 19L pot which suited my circumstances. One day I'll go AG no doubt but this midway partial grain process is producing some good beers without that "homebrew" flavour at a relatively low cost and above all, its a really enjoyable way to make beer.


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## koshari (22/1/19)

captnhaddock said:


> I wanted to second Koshari's recommendation. Coming from a Yank's perspective (where pre-bittered malt is not the norm), most extract kits are really partial grain in nature, and provide the level of flexibility / or scope even that AG brewers are aiming for. I can brew up a batch in two hours and be quit of it *before my wife even bothers to fuss me* (that includes set up / steeping the grains / racking to fermenter and cleanup)..


Iam hearing you there Skipper


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## Thomas Wood (23/1/19)

For some reason this forum stopped alerting me to responses. I have gone through and read everything and it looks like I will be getting a Robobrew (or whatever system I decide on) for my birthday in April!



AJ80 said:


> My two cents would be to buy a $20 19L stainless pot from Big W and a BIAB bag from one of the sponsors. That's enough equipment to brew small AG batches BIAB style (12-13L). Brew 2 or 3 batches and work out if the resulting beer is worth your time and effort. If not, you've not spent much money. If yes, this is equipment you'll keep on using regardless. I think it's worthwhile trialling things before taking the plunge and buying an all in one vessel.



I'm definitely going to do this for my next brew. This is not something I put much thought into before.

Cheers everyone.


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## labels (23/1/19)

The difference between extract and all-grain can be equated to the difference between instant coffee and espresso brewed coffee. Sums it up.


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## captnhaddock (24/1/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> For some reason this forum stopped alerting me to responses. I have gone through and read everything and it looks like I will be getting a Robobrew (or whatever system I decide on) for my birthday in April!
> I'm definitely going to do this for my next brew. This is not something I put much thought into before.
> 
> Cheers everyone.



I also BIAB along with my partial grain brew sessions, when I feel like noodling with my beer, but can't say enough for the partial grain for it's simplicity and easy (and more important) quick brew sessions.


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## Thomas Wood (4/4/19)

Have had my first Maxi-BIAB AG Helles Lager (Mangrove Jacks kit) on keg for the last month. All my mates love it and I think it can definitely be better considering my mash and sparge temps bounced around all over the shop.

Considering how difficult it was the control temps, the mess it made, etc, I was pretty happy with the result.

Will be ordering a Robobrew next week. Now to find some easy XPA and Lager/Pils recipes


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## mongey (4/4/19)

it funny I was thinking about this thread the other day . after my first 14 AG batches in a row I just did my first kit beer in 9 months .

have a new baby and had a tin sitting in the cupboard for a year ,so figured Id just chuck it on with what I had .

coopers bootmaker tin
+ tin liquid wheat malt
+ 500 ldm with a 10 min boil of some centennial for flavor .

pitched direct onto a WLP550 yeast cake from AG beer before
dry hopped with a little calypso

so its some kind of mutant belgian pale ale 


its done and to be bottled this weekend

my thoughts

it finished higher than my AG beers. OG was 1052. Id expect that to get down to 1006 with my experience with wlp550. but it finished at 1012 . but its def done
taste wise its fine out of the fermenter. I feel like its less refined than my AG beers .but that could also be in my head .hard to tell till its carbed in the bottle
I'm def not as excited about it as I am when my AG is ready ,kind of feels like an unloved stepchild


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## Mattysd (9/4/19)

I was an extract brewer from many years ago. I recently decided to go all grain. The most satisfying thing for me is researching different styles. The smell of the process from mash to boil then fermentation is amazing. I have bottled 2 20lt fermentation and have 2 more bubbling away now. I have made 4 very different brews and am looking forward to drinking them in a month or 2. I am very excited about grain brewing and find it therapeutic.
Just my opinion 

Cheers 
Matt


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## Truman42 (12/4/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> Have had my first Maxi-BIAB AG Helles Lager (Mangrove Jacks kit) on keg for the last month. All my mates love it and I think it can definitely be better considering my mash and sparge temps bounced around all over the shop.
> 
> Considering how difficult it was the control temps, the mess it made, etc, I was pretty happy with the result.
> 
> Will be ordering a Robobrew next week. Now to find some easy XPA and Lager/Pils recipes


So did you order the robobrew yet? Im thinking about doing the same after years of using a 3v herms sytem. Too much work to setup and clean up so the robobrew appeals to me.


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## Thomas Wood (12/4/19)

Truman42 said:


> So did you order the robobrew yet? Im thinking about doing the same after years of using a 3v herms sytem. Too much work to setup and clean up so the robobrew appeals to me.


Yeh mate, it arrived yesterday. She's a beauty. Got the reflux still attachment as well.

Gave it a good clean and hosed it off. The Gen 3.1 has a few nice improvements on it.

Will do my first brew probably Monday (Czech Pilsner) after I keg what's currently in the fermenter.


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## Truman42 (12/4/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> Yeh mate, it arrived yesterday. She's a beauty. Got the reflux still attachment as well.
> 
> Gave it a good clean and hosed it off. The Gen 3.1 has a few nice improvements on it.
> 
> Will do my first brew probably Monday (Czech Pilsner) after I keg what's currently in the fermenter.


Looking forward to a full report.


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## Thomas Wood (12/4/19)

Truman42 said:


> Looking forward to a full report.


Will do mate 
Will pay extra care to set up and cleaning for ya


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## Thomas Wood (15/4/19)

Truman42 said:


> Looking forward to a full report.


Man what an amazing system. All up the brew day took about 6hrs. Probably only 2hrs of me actively doing anything. 90m mash and 90m boil.

Set up takes seconds. Then I heated up 20L of sparge water to 85* and put that in a pot. Then I started to heat up my mash water. Then I had to unfortunately duck out for 2hrs...

When I came back I started heating my mash water again. It doesn't take long at all with both elements on.

I mashed in about 4.2kg of grain and 16L of water (0.5kg of wheat in there, no rice hulls). Had zero issues with stuck mash or poor flow. Stoked.

Then I sparge. Water was down to 55* now since it was 3hrs later.

I turned on both heating elements when I started sparing and it took another 10 or 20 minutes after sparging to hit the rolling boil.

Cleaned up my mash tin and filters by hosing them off and giving a wipe. Feel like it didn't need more than that.

After the boil it took about 30m with the included immersion cooler to get to 25*.

Cleanup afterwards was just a good hose off, PWB soak, and good scrub/wipe with a microfibre towel. Has all come up good.

Mash tun scratches easily if that bothers you. Also I feel like the handy is way too small. It just slips out of the holes everytime. Lifting up the mash tun was more difficult than it needed to be. That is literally my only issue though.

OG was 2 points short of what Beersmith predicted so I chalk that down to sparging with 20* cooler water and probably more of it.

And for those wondering, the Robobrew used about $4 of power at peak rates.


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## Truman42 (16/4/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> Man what an amazing system. All up the brew day took about 6hrs. Probably only 2hrs of me actively doing anything. 90m mash and 90m boil.
> 
> Set up takes seconds. Then I heated up 20L of sparge water to 85* and put that in a pot. Then I started to heat up my mash water. Then I had to unfortunately duck out for 2hrs...
> 
> ...




Good one mate, sounds like your very happy with it. I ended up buying a 2nd hand Guten for $300, only 4 months old so I couldnt refuse. Keen to brew on it this weekend.


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## theQuinny (16/4/19)

Thomas Wood said:


> Also I feel like the handy is way too small. It just slips out of the holes everytime. Lifting up the mash tun was more difficult than it needed to be. That is literally my only issue though.



I think I know what the problem is ... Have a look at that piece of 5mm round wire that goes around the top of the urn (where the feet of the malt pipe will sit when you lift it out). When you put the handle in the malt pipe, make sure you're not getting tangled up with that before lifting. You'll see the handle go in correctly when you get it right. I dropped mine twice before I figured it out.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/4/19)

I don't recall what size the hole is in the Robobrew but if it is a 10 mm hole get rid of the handle and use a piece of all thread, that is what I have done in the Guten. This is the Brau wolf but it is the same as the Guten.


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## theQuinny (16/4/19)

The holes in the Robobrew are about 16mm ...

You can see what I'm talking about in the above photo. Rotate the pipe an eighth turn clockwise & you'll struggle to get the handle in because of the piece of wire (for want of a better term) running around the top...


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## wide eyed and legless (16/4/19)

theQuinny said:


> The holes in the Robobrew are about 16mm ...


Then use 12 mm allthread


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## feral1 (3/5/19)

Honestly, it comes down to what you enjoy doing. I like making all grain beers from scratch because, well I just do. Just like I like making curry pastes from scratch. I've had some cracker results and a few not so great. it's more about the journey rather than the destination. 

I have a good mate that sticks with kit beers and augments them with the odd extra hop and a bit of grain sparged in to bring back the flavour of the grain. He makes an awesome brew. He'd like to have a go at all grain too but seriously doesn't have the time to do it.

In the end, if you like the beer that you brew then it's a good beer. 

Enjoy it, brewing comes from the heart and tickles the taste buds, it's not a genital measuring competition.


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