# Anhc - What Did You Learn?



## kevo (27/10/08)

From the sounds of it everyone had a great few days at the ANHC.

Would people be happy to share one thing they learned during the conference which they think would be of benefit to others?
Of everything you did learned, what would you pass onto other brewers first?
Highlights?

NB: getting a spooning partner early in the evening and not letting people borrow your camera don't count! Brewing related please!!  

Kev


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## Fatgodzilla (27/10/08)

> Would people be happy to share one thing they learned during the conference which they think would be of benefit to others?



Not a huge amount of technical stuff expounded compared to anedotal stuff, but Palmer's talk on water was interesting and will make me look at the chemical composition of brewing water (if I can find it) as well as pH fundementals. The chemical guy's talk on sanitizers and cleaners made me realise that my techniques in this area is shyte, and Zamil's best point was that it's no good whinging about the failures of someone's recipes if you change / tinker from that recipe. From other blokes I learnt that the ingredients alone don't make the beer best, its what's done with them. 

All in all, to steal a football term, I got lot more 1%ers out of the conference rather than any earthshattering epithany.


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## domonsura (27/10/08)

I learnt a heck of a lot about water adjustment from John Palmer's talk on the subject ( I knew very little), I also had the benefit of sittng beside Pedro from Gulf Brewery at the time, and he'll attest to the fact that I was a complete pain in the ass bouncing little questions off him so I could keep track of the gist of it all. 
The hop utilisation talk was also pretty informative but a little more difficult to follow, and I'd recommend to everyone interested in either subject that they try and get hold of some of the presentation material when/if it becomes available. Apparently they are being made available, they're just trying to decide on the most appropriate fashion to do so. 
All in all though, as FG has mentioned, it was more of a 'bigger picture' kind of thing for me, and I think that most people who attended would have taken different things away to add to their overall brewing knowledge. I don't reckon there were _too_ many epiphanies as such.
Regardless, I'm sure the info will be shared and pulled to bits on here over the next 12 months, and then the best thing to do would be attend next year  Well worth it.


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## Barry (27/10/08)

Learnt so much but if there was one thing that was so simple but such great advice it was what Jamil said about judging. Write down what you actually see, smell and taste. If you smell and taste oranges write that down.


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## Weizguy (27/10/08)

I learned that Barry can tell a joke and do it well.  

The main thing (other than a few negatives) that I take away from the conference is that the guys from the US are very approachable, don't have an opinion on everything, and can factually back up what they do have an opinion about.
I spent some time just chatting with Jamil and John Palmer at Transport and they are very down-to-earth and that's hard to fake (IMHO). I spoke with a number of brewers who had been corresponding, at length, by email with the two authors, as well.

Oh, and Chris White looks hot with an eye-patch. :lol: 

Les


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## kram (27/10/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Chris White looks hot with an eye-patch. :lol:


Exploding air lock?


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## Hutch (27/10/08)

:excl: I learnt that the one time I mixed Phosphoric acid sanitiser with Household bleach, the green gas that I produced could have killed me 

... So, amongst all the brilliant info, I learnt that we can be far too complacent with some of the potent chemicals we use in our brewery, and not recognise the required safety aspects in their proper use.

The presentation by Jon Herskovits (5 Star Chemicals) was very valuable to this end - 
Basically, you can have a very effective and complete cleaning / sanitising regime with just 2 relatively safe products - PBW (cleaner) and Star-San (sanitiser). Of course it was in his vested interest to promote his company's products, though I thought he did so by presenting a fair comparison of all products available, pros and cons, with a particular emphasis on materials safety.

...oh and I was really hoping for a bit more verbal fisticuffs between Phil Sexton and Mick Jontef - Thought they were far to polite to each other


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## kook (27/10/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> All in all, to steal a football term, I got lot more 1%ers out of the conference rather than any earthshattering epithany.



Ditto. I also learnt that fatgodzilla loves sour beers.

I had an awesomely fun weekend though. Social aspect was the best part of it all. Club night was brilliant, as was the array of beers on tap from micros around Aus.

Bring on the next conference!


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## goatherder (27/10/08)

A couple of key learnings for me which will change the way I do things:

- John Palmer - At least 50ppm Calcium is required in the mash, preferably 100ppm. Also, the sulphate:chloride ratio should be according to the beer style - balance it towards the sulphate to accentuate hops and towards the chloride to accentuate the malt.
- Jess Caudill from Wyeast - When making a starter with Brett (which I will be soon), don't give it oxygen like a normal starter. I'll be skipping the stirplate and leaving it in a bottle for a few weeks to grow.
- John Herskovits from 5 Star - Pure sodium percarbonate is a good cleaner for the brewhouse but not as good as PBW (which contains some percarb). PBW is more alkaline to clean better/faster, contains a surfactant to get into tiny flaws in the vessel surface and a chelation agent to keep minerals in suspension. The end result is that it works faster and at lower concentrations than pure sodium percarb. He is obviously going to promote PBW but he did so in a really constructive and respectful manner. I will give it a try as a result.


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## lonte (27/10/08)

One and only note I made all conference was on Day 1 in the first session by Jamil ... when scaling a recipe for efficiency only scale the base malts not the specialty malts.

Edit: oh yeah, and after Plamer's talk I stand by my sig.


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## kram (27/10/08)

lonte said:


> One and only note I made all conference was on Day 1 in the first session by Jamil ... when scaling a recipe for efficiency only scale the base malts not the specialty malts.


Yeah that's a nice rule i've heard from Jamil on one of the podcasts. Kinda confuses the hell out of me on forums and the like when people list recipes in percentages haha!


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## Tony (27/10/08)

Sounds like a great time was had........... and reads like a coverup for a bunch of keen brewers hiding the facts about an expensive piss up from their wives :lol: 

cheers


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## barneyhanway (28/10/08)

Ha Tony, there's probably a lot of truth in that. The beer was freely available and flowing. To our credit though I don't recall anyone getting seriously out of sorts, during the conference sessions anyway.

John Palmers talk on residual alkalinity was the only time I've ever made any sense of the subject. And realised I need to add some calcium to my very soft (tank) water.

Jamil's wisdom throughout was very beneficial. And what a nice guy to boot. What he said about scaling only the base malts needs to be taken in the context of scaling for efficiency - when you're only talking about efficiency percentages ( < 10% maybe? ) it makes sense. Obviously if you're adjusting to make a bigger beer you'll need to scale everything.

Jon's talk on sanitisation was really really good, and I for one couldn't understand why he refused to turn it into a sales pitch - would've been fine by me. But the honesty was appreciated nonetheless - I learned all about the requirement for surfactants - otherwise microscopic cracks and surface imperfections never get cleaned - the surface tension of the liquid stops it getting right into everything. Amazing.

Milletmans talk was awesome too.

I'm hoping all of the presentations are made available, there's a bunch of data and information that would be great to have as a permanent reference.

Barry the kiwi.


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## Screwtop (28/10/08)

barneyhanway said:


> Ha Tony, there's probably a lot of truth in that. The beer was freely available and flowing. To our credit though I don't recall anyone getting seriously out of sorts, during the conference sessions anyway.
> 
> John Palmers talk on residual alkalinity was the only time I've ever made any sense of the subject. And realised I need to add some calcium to my very soft (tank) water.
> 
> ...



+1 on all of those points. Did we meet Barry?

Screwy


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## koongara (28/10/08)

I learnt that beer at morning smoko should be mandatory at all conferences


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## Wasabi (28/10/08)

kevo said:


> Would people be happy to share one thing they learned during the conference which they think would be of benefit to others?
> Of everything you did learned, what would you pass onto other brewers first?
> Highlights?



There are three big areas that we have to constantly deal with when we run our short course and to some extent our Grad Cert. Although I'm pretty sure most AGers here are pretty much in the know, there is still a lot of confusion over a few areas. It was really great to see John Palmer and Jamil between them address those three issues

1) The pH of water for brewing is about as important at the colour of your stirring spoon. He e didn't say it quite so elegantly...but you get the message

2) Hop Utilisation is WAY TO COMPLICATED to be put into a formula. Use the formula as guide to relativity. If the formula says you have 50IBU's but a proper analysis says you only have 30 IBU's. IT DOESN"T MATTER. As long as you use the same formula, you can adjust it to your liking. Besides the one big influencing factor is your equipment, and no formula can take that into account

3) Don't get so hung up on efficiency. There are far more important things to worry about.

I was kind of hoping that there might have been a little bit of promotion for Aussie Home Brewer...oh well.


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## Kai (28/10/08)

lonte said:


> One and only note I made all conference was on Day 1 in the first session by Jamil ... when scaling a recipe for efficiency only scale the base malts not the specialty malts.



I have difficulty agreeing with that completely. If your efficiency losses are due to vessel deadspace, transfer losses or excess wort left in the grain bed then you are going to leave behind specialty malt contributions as well as overall extract.


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## Andyd (28/10/08)

barneyhanway said:


> I'm hoping all of the presentations are made available, there's a bunch of data and information that would be great to have as a permanent reference.




We're going to be going into production mode over the next week or so to bring out a DVD with the presentations, as well as any video/audio we can pull from the recordings (one of our lessons - arrange better lighting for the presenters!!!)

We'll be selling it on the shop for a small fee, basically to generate seed funds for the next conference (I'm trying to be self sufficient in terms of getting our keynote speakers out next time). There should be a hell of a lot of material on it, so I think it will be well worth it - I'll be buying one ... 

A couple of the presentations will also go out to some of the podcasts, so kep an ear out for those.

Andyd


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## Peter Wadey (28/10/08)

Kai said:


> I have difficulty agreeing with that completely. If your efficiency losses are due to vessel deadspace, transfer losses or excess wort left in the grain bed then you are going to leave behind specialty malt contributions as well as overall extract.



The engineering side of my brain has difficulty agreeing with _any_ of it. 

Pete


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## Kai (28/10/08)

My engineering side doesn't either. Production and accounting are currently still united in disagreement, unfortunately.


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## Fatgodzilla (28/10/08)

> ='kook' date='Oct 27 2008, 08:14 PM' post='368775']
> Ditto. I also learnt that fatgodzilla loves sour beers.



<_< <_< 



> Club night was brilliant, as was the array of beers on tap from micros around Aus.



:beerbang: 

I believe most of the beers on club night were superior than most craftbrews. I learnt that as a home brewer, if I improve my game, I can make great beers too. 




> Bring on the next conference!



:super: 


These are the rest of the words I was singing when I "visited" the WA Brewers section. Kook dressed like the cowboy from the Village People - who took photos ?? 

I Wanna be a cowboy

Riding on the range, 
I've got my hat - on, 
I've got my boots - dusty. 

I've got my saddle
On my horse. 
He's called....T-t-t-t-t-trigger
Of course. 

I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy

Riding on the chuck wagon, 
Following my man. 
His name is Ted, 
Can you believe that? 
Camping on the prairie
Plays havoc with my hair. 
Makes me feel quite dirty, 
Though we all do sometimes

I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy

Looking like a hero, 
Six-gun at my side, 
Chewing my tobacco. 
Out on the horizon, 
I see a puff of smoke. 
Indians on the warpath, 
White man speak-em 
with forked tongue. 
Or not. 

I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy

My name is Ted, 
And one day I'll be dead yo yo.
__________________
Yes,i'm a new world samurai and a redneck none the less


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## bonj (28/10/08)

I learnt to only make one change or you'll never know what change it was that made your next beer super great or super crap. Consistency is the key here... be pedantic about consistency.


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## Katherine (28/10/08)

> I learnt to only make one change or you'll never know what change it was that made your next beer super great or super crap. Consistency is the key here... be pedantic about consistency.




I like your thinking


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## kram (28/10/08)

Bonj said:


> I learnt to only make one change or you'll never know what change it was that made your next beer super great or super crap. Consistency is the key here... be pedantic about consistency.


Haha I made the mistake of making multiple changes at once. Now i'm just consistent with these changes batch to batch 'cause I don't know which one is benefitting!


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## Weizguy (28/10/08)

Katie said:


> QUOTE
> I learnt to only make one change or you'll never know what change it was that made your next beer super great or super crap. Consistency is the key here... be pedantic about consistency.
> 
> 
> I like your thinking


That is part of what is called "Scientific Technique".
They teach it at Universities.
Change only one variable at a time, and see if it makes a difference. Then measure/quantify the change and analyse to see if that change is significant or not.

Les (B.Sc.)


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## bonj (28/10/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> That is part of what is called "Scientific Technique".
> They teach it at Universities.
> Change only one variable at a time, and see if it makes a difference. Then measure/quantify the change and analyse to see if that change is significant or not.
> 
> Les (B.Sc.)



Yep, but when you're having fun, making BEER, sometimes you forget... It's good to have it reinforced every once in a while.

Bonj (B.Comp. (yeah another IT guy ))


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## Aaron (28/10/08)

I can't say there is one specific thing. The conference has really inspired me and I can't wait to brew. I think my brewing will outstrip what I can drink over the next few months. 

The conference has also really got me thinking about all of my process' and how I can improve them. I think I have become a little slack with parts of my brewing lately but this has inspired me to get everything back in order. I can't see my self going to the lengths that Ron from Temple has but I want to start moving back in that direction.


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## clean brewer (28/10/08)

Diddly squat.. I didnt go..    

Maybe next year, I mean next year... :icon_cheers:


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## berapnopod (28/10/08)

...apart from learning I was the only one in the audience who did not smell diacetyl in that sample,
I learnt a good deal of useful stuff. Its obvious, but always important to ram it home one more time (as Jamil did): be consistent in your brewing.

I learnt 1 IBU != 1ppm iso alpha acid

I learnt that forcing oxygen into your wort (rather than splashing) does make a difference. Not sure if I am game to brush off the old aquarium pump next time I make a batch though.

I learnt bitter is being hard done by in the AABC style guidelines.

I learnt that maybe, just maybe, surfactants could hang around from a no-rinse sanitiser long enough to hurt your yeast (need more data on this though).

I learnt that Phil Sexton has a talent for delivering soul-crushing talks when beer can be talked about purely in terms of a brand, rather than a passion.

I learnt that its possible to make an absolutely fantastic sour raspberry beer in less than a year (thanks Michael G!)

I learnt that I should give Galaxy hops a go!

Berp.


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## Weizguy (28/10/08)

I'd like to reinforce that I took away many things, including Sexton being very driven but very dry and business-like. Maybe if he'd been available to see the other talks and their passion, instead of rocking in late-ish with a briefcase (which may as well have been chained to him), wearing a jacket (in the hot Melbourne weather) and spending a lot of time on the mobile phone. I know he's running a business, but that smacks of control freak/ megalomania, like one of my old bosses (who didn't trust his management enough to run things on their own, so he monitored and directed everyone).

Also the postulation that there is beer in space, delivered by the Berapnopod himself. Quite a dry (pun not originally intended, but I'll call it mine) topic, taken and livened up for the AABC presentation. That was great, coz I missed the one delivered in Sydney and was waiting for it to be posted on YouTube or something similar.
A+ to you Andrew.


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## Tony (28/10/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> That is part of what is called "Scientific Technique".
> They teach it at Universities.
> Change only one variable at a time, and see if it makes a difference. Then measure/quantify the change and analyse to see if that change is significant or not.
> 
> Les (B.Sc.)



Learnt the same thing as an apprentice sparkie as a method of fault finding. I have always used the same aproach in my brewing and its a good bit of advice to remember in lots of things.

cheers


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## /// (28/10/08)

I learnt from Ray that it was excellent and the organizers should be congratulated. So congratulations! 

Scotty


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## James Squire (29/10/08)

Jamil helped me to see that it is important to keep enjoying brew day.

Not to get too caught up in measuring this and adjusting that... Get one water for pale beers, one water for dark beers and stick to them. Simplify your brewing system and process and keep it consistent. Allow yourself the time to enjoy yourself. Brewing should not be a chore, it is your hobby after all.

John taught me what the two water profiles should look like. 

I learnt that Ben Kraus' Bling IPA is still one of my favourite beers. Best IPA in the country.

Phil Sexton is not a great public speaker. 

I also want to put out a mention to Mark Hibberd for his efforts brewing the 4 faulty beers for us to sample and learn from. That was a very good session and I also enjoyed the interactive judging session that followed. Well done to Mark and the others.

Cheers to all for a great conference.

JS (Cale)


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## reVoxAHB (29/10/08)

berapnopod said:


> ...apart from learning I was the only one in the audience who did not smell diacetyl in that sample,
> 
> Berp.



but did you get any slickness in mouthfeel?

i found the slickness to be the dead-giveaway in addition to, and perhaps over, aroma. 

fun [email protected] :icon_cheers: 

cheers, 
reVox


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## LexP (29/10/08)

From the sounds of it I'll definately be heading over next year!



James Squire said:


> Not to get too caught up in measuring this and adjusting that... Get one water for pale beers, one water for dark beers and stick to them. Simplify your brewing system and process and keep it consistent. Allow yourself the time to enjoy yourself. Brewing should not be a chore, it is your hobby after all.
> 
> John taught me what the two water profiles should look like.



Is it possible for anyone to put up those two water profiles?


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## Korev (29/10/08)

LexP said:


> From the sounds of it I'll definately be heading over next year!
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible for anyone to put up those two water profiles?



I have attached John's presentation from the NHC in Denver last year it looks like his anhc presentation was an update and included a summary of AU water profiles - soft.

Also look for version 2.4 of his spreadsheet at http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html - bottom of page

Korev

PS I think I have almost grasped (it is a slippery beast) the RA concept from talking to John - need to try it out in practice 

View attachment NHC_Denver_07sm.ppt


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## yeungnut (29/10/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I'd like to reinforce that I took away many things, including Sexton being very driven but very dry and business-like. Maybe if he'd been available to see the other talks and their passion, instead of rocking in late-ish with a briefcase (which may as well have been chained to him), wearing a jacket (in the hot Melbourne weather) and spending a lot of time on the mobile phone. I know he's running a business, but that smacks of control freak/ megalomania, like one of my old bosses (who didn't trust his management enough to run things on their own, so he monitored and directed everyone).
> 
> Also the postulation that there is beer in space, delivered by the Berapnopod himself. Quite a dry (pun not originally intended, but I'll call it mine) topic, taken and livened up for the AABC presentation. That was great, coz I missed the one delivered in Sydney and was waiting for it to be posted on YouTube or something similar.
> A+ to you Andrew.



Les,

To be fair to Phil Sexton. He was on the phone because there was an accident at the winnery, I believe a fatality in the carpark. So I think he did a bloody good job in the circumstances (This wasn't publized during the conference for obvious reasons). Especially with the bloody projector dying during his presentation. I also think it was good to get another perspetive of the industry, especially with the US craft market, where he is right in saying many a great base beer is ruined in the persuit of an extreme beer. I thought a very insightful presentation although I agree he could have rocked up a little earlier which would have avoided alot of the AV problems.

Cheers

Phil


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## LexP (29/10/08)

Korev said:


> I have attached John's presentation from the NHC in Denver last year it looks like his anhc presentation was an update and included a summary of AU water profiles - soft.
> 
> Also look for version 2.4 of his spreadsheet at http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html - bottom of page
> 
> ...



Thanks!


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## dig (29/10/08)

CILA Brews said:


> Les,
> 
> To be fair to Phil Sexton. He was on the phone because there was an accident at the winnery, I believe a fatality in the carpark.



There was an accident on Saturday at the White Rabbit Brewery building site which is across the carpark from Phil's winery. Following his talk, both Phil and I had voicemail messages from one of the winery staff. A painter who was working in one of the trade waste pits slipped whilst climbing out, fell back in, dislodged his respirator and knocked himself out. Scary stuff. He was taken to hospital but was discharged that evening.

Phil let a few White Rabbits out of the bag. Getting pretty excited about it now.


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## Hutch (29/10/08)

dig said:


> Phil let a few White Rabbits out of the bag. Getting pretty excited about it now.


Yep, same here. Burton squares he reckons - hope they're knocking up a good ol' fashion "Ordinary" Bitter, and not another US-hopped Little Creatures quaffer (not that there's anything wrong with the Bright, Rogers or Pale!). If anyone can get a Pommie bitter right in this country, then you've got my money.


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## WillM (29/10/08)

I was interested in what Chris White presented on yeast performance after adding Oxygen for 1 or 2 minutes to the wort, or pumping air for a couple of hours before pitching the yeast. (Namely a faster fermentation with a lower FG, resulting in a crisper dryer beer.)

Does anyone know where I can get something to pump O2 into my wort? There seems to be a thing called an oxynator for sale in the US, anyone used something similar here?


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## Fents (29/10/08)

$20 aquarium pump with an airstone attached from any good aquarium.


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## newguy (29/10/08)

WillM said:


> Does anyone know where I can get something to pump O2 into my wort? There seems to be a thing called an oxynator for sale in the US, anyone used something similar here?



I bought one of these a year ago and I love it. Craftbrewer has SS airstones, but I don't see any O2 regulators on their site. If you know someone who works in medicine and has access to medical O2, they may be able to find you an old regulator. If you're lucky, they may be able to find you a tank too. If not, the tiny regulator in the link is what I have and it works very well on the 40g O2 canisters available from hardware stores (at least that's where they're available around here).

Edit: Pure O2 is great stuff. A 30 second shot for a 20l batch is all I need.


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## oldbugman (29/10/08)

I learnt getting up at 4am and having a nap while flying(injuring neck) isnt a good idea if your planning on a big night that day.

I had the worst migraine during club night and was forced to duck off before the end, I then slept through the water presentation which I was really looking forward to. But atleast it meant I could stay out late on the sat night.


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## reVoxAHB (29/10/08)

From Tony Wheeler's presentation, I learned the style India Pale Ale derived it's name from the East India (shipping) Company, _not_ that it was export beer destined for India. The style was in fact, well received the Atlantic over. The higher alcohol, malt and hopping to withstand the lengthy rigours of transport at sea is no doubt true, but again has nothing to do with India specifically, as destination or naming of style.

I've been the guy at the pub telling the same old English export for troops in India story, adnauseam.

Plenty of other things I picked up.. this one sprang to mind tonight as I cracked an IPA  .

reVox


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## berapnopod (29/10/08)

reVox said:


> but did you get any slickness in mouthfeel?
> 
> i found the slickness to be the dead-giveaway in addition to, and perhaps over, aroma.



I did notice the slickness. I know I am one of those people that is relatively insensitive to diacetyl. But I have certainly smelt it in beer before. From experience, I know that slickness is something I do notice, but ONLY when someone points it out to me. So on a judging table, I usually rely on the other judges to tell me when a beer has diacetyl in it.



> fun [email protected] :icon_cheers:
> 
> cheers,
> reVox



Thanks! I certainly enjoyed giving it :beer: 

Berp.


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## berapnopod (30/10/08)

Oooohhh!!

One other thing I learnt from Chris White (I think)...

If you ferment at high temperatures, levels of acetaldehyde (green apples) go up considerably.
Much more pronounced than esters or fusels.


Berp.


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## wakkatoo (30/10/08)

whilst I didn't go (damn!!), I have learnt since that all attendees either forgot to take their cameras OR photos were not allowed OR (and most probably) "what happened at the conference stays at the conference" which means any form of photographic evidence will never surface (except for that one of les and all his mates of course  )

Pictures people!


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## brendanos (30/10/08)

I've taken a couple of valuable things from the conference:

- water chemistry is relatively simple
- kilned and roasted malts result in very different actual beer colour
- primary yeast profile (ester/phenol production) greatly influences wild yeast performance 
- Becks/Heineken/etc aren't supposed to smell like _that_
- wine tastes better than beer, and
- even Fosters can brew and release beers that smell like eggy farts.

(and whoever it was that declared that noone would brew a better Oktoberfest than Fosters would be eating their words now had they tasted some of those on offer at club night!)


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## wakkatoo (30/10/08)

brendanos said:


> - wine tastes better than beer, and



How did the conference teach you that? Not saying its wrong etc, etc as my wife very much agrees with you.


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## Screwtop (30/10/08)

For me it was good factual brewing information as opposed to internet lore.


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## Snow (30/10/08)

brendanos said:


> - wine tastes better than beer



WTF? Are you sure you went to right conference?  

- Snow


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## Screwtop (30/10/08)

brendanos said:


> I've taken a couple of valuable things from the conference:
> 
> - water chemistry is relatively simple
> - kilned and roasted malts result in very different actual beer colour
> ...




And don't forget - "Homebrewers can't make beer as good as big breweries"

Another little gem :lol:


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## bonj (30/10/08)

He actually said homebrewers can't make "mainstream" beers as well as big breweries, which is his way of saying we can't make VB as well as they can... which is probably true. But why would we want to?


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## Screwtop (30/10/08)

Bonj said:


> his way of saying we can't make VB as well as they can... which is probably true.




You think ??


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## bonj (30/10/08)

It's not that I don't think we can, it's that I don't think we would put the level of effort required (blending multiple batches) and exercise such tight control over the process for that end product.


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## Fatgodzilla (30/10/08)

Bonj said:


> It's not that I don't think we can, it's that I don't think we would put the level of effort required (blending multiple batches) and exercise such tight control over the process for that end product.


 that's right, we can't produce a product (say a production run) time after time after time such as a commercial brewery .. not that you would want to as a home brewer


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## Andyd (30/10/08)

My take on what Mick was saying is that a homebrewer has to make beer that keeps him and his mates content with what they're drinking. For a commercial brewery, they have to brew a beer that millions of people are consistently content with, and happy to continue forking over cash for. If they had the same level of variability that I currently have, for example, they'd go broke! 

At the same time, for me to develop that level of consistency I'd probably go broke  (but I'd go down happy having bought all my brewery bling...)

Andy


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## berapnopod (30/10/08)

brendanos said:


> - wine tastes better than beer, and



This was put up on a slide, all on its own, by Phil Sexton. I was waiting for him to make some very sage point, but he just reiterated the words without further explanation.

I was perplexed to say the least.

Berp.


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## peas_and_corn (30/10/08)

that strikes me as being the same as going to an athiest convention, offhandedly saying "oh, and creationism is a fantastic theory..."


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## buttersd70 (30/10/08)

berapnopod said:


> This was put up on a slide, all on its own, by Phil Sexton. I was waiting for him to make some very sage point, but he just reiterated the words without further explanation.
> 
> I was perplexed to say the least.
> 
> Berp.



Reading this got me curious. I had a bit of a search, and came up with this old article in The Age.....




> Phil Sexton, who founded Matilda Bay in 1983 and now runs the Giant Steps winery in the Yarra Valley, has been both brewer and winemaker at different stages of his career.
> 
> "To me, the art of winemaking is about taking the raw material - grapes, which hopefully you've grown yourself - and being true to the fruit," he says. "It's about telling the same story with different twists and turns. You weave together the story of the fruit, but don't cover up or hide the variations.
> 
> ...



This is only the Phil Sexton part. the whole article is here


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## bconnery (31/10/08)

I also found this statement perplexing. I wondered whether he was talking from a perception point of view, the wider public having this idea, but it appears not...
I find it inherently sad that a man responsible for so much good in the area of craft brewing in Australia holds this view. 
It's like he is saying that brewing has to be driven by market forces and appeal to the lowest common denominator but wine has free reign. 

If I wasn't preaching to the converted I'd start on my rant about why he is wrong, at least in my very strongly held opinion, but I came close enough to going down that path several times at the conference after many a few tasters...

I realise that brewers have to survive but after so many of us had felt that the man from Fosters had talked entirely in terms of product rather than beer, even when asked about a specific beer, it was disappointing from my point of view to hear someone who in theory should have been more "one of us" essentially do the same thing. 

It was good to hear some of the things he said, and I enjoyed looking out for the Fosters guy in the front row while he held forth on his bitterness at the treatment of Mathilda Bay by them and the general behaviour of the big breweries, but overall I was left with very mixed impressions by his talk.


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## Fatgodzilla (31/10/08)

bconnery said:


> It was good to hear some of the things he said, and I enjoyed looking out for the Fosters guy in the front row while he held forth on his bitterness at the treatment of Mathilda Bay by them and the general behaviour of the big breweries, but overall I was left with very mixed impressions by his talk.



Re Phil Sexton. Having read a few reviews and articles by the man that made him look an inspired choice as a presenter at the conference, I went in looking forward to a good speech. However his dull, lifeless and mono tone presentation style and the heat of the room all but put me to sleep, so I left the room, went next door, had a couple of beers and a good chat with the Better Bottle people. Returned for the last three or so minutes and proved to myself that the ten minutes and two beers next door was an inspired choice. Nothing I have read here has lead me to a different conclusion.

It's as I said to the committee, he was a dud presenter who failed to recognise the audience he was addressing and that the subject matter he presented to his audience was unsuitable for the time and occasion. I for one was disappointed and feel disappointed for the ANHC committee - a well credentialled speaker turned in a lead balloon effort. From what I have read, he was distracted by circumstances, but from what I heard, I doubt that made a difference.


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## troydo (31/10/08)

in regards to the fosters octoberfest.. it still has that damn yeast character all thier beers had... and clubnight WOO

Ashers oktoberfest was Fricken awesome!!


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## Fatgodzilla (1/11/08)

Troydo said:


> in regards to the fosters octoberfest.. it still has that damn yeast character all thier beers had... and clubnight WOO
> 
> Ashers oktoberfest was Fricken awesome!!




Agree with first point. The Foster brew was clearly a well made brew - just lacked BLING. It was to Octoberfest as VB is to Australian lager - well made, no harsh flavours or aroma, just ... dull. Thanks to Fosters for making it - really appreciate the effort and co operation and sponsorship, but my thoughts are they didn't want to make anything too good cos them we would all say - "Look what Fosters can do if they really try " It almost seemed as if they were scared to brew something outside their comfort zone. Good on them for a great contribution to ANHC and my Claude Nine will sit in storage to age and be drunk at next year's ANHC. Just a tad underwhelmed with their Octoberfest.

Can't remember too much about the individual beers on Club Night, but I tasted some rippers. I can remember saying that one octoberfest I tasted was brilliant - if that was Asher's, then great stuff. Actually I didn't taste a bad beer all weekend - just some were better than others. That's beer for you.


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## kevo (1/11/08)

As I wasn't going I didn't really keep up with speakers etc.

But recall that Graeme Sanders was to speak early on.

Did he end up speaking? What about if he did?

Did anyone listen?


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## Aaron (1/11/08)

kevo said:


> Did he end up speaking?



No.


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## kevo (1/11/08)

Do you know why?

I was quite keen to hear what he had to say as such an outspoken person - I was interested to see how he would present in person and how he would be recieved.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (1/11/08)

kevo said:


> Do you know why?
> 
> I was quite keen to hear what he had to say as such an outspoken person - I was interested to see how he would present in person and how he would be received.


As quoted much earlier, he had family factors to deal with.Hope he is on board next year to get a Aussie perspective from the Guru.Love him or not he is an influence/ego here.


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## Ray_Mills (1/11/08)

Bonj said:


> I learnt to only make one change or you'll never know what change it was that made your next beer super great or super crap. Consistency is the key here... be pedantic about consistency.


This is true, and its a big thing i learned, I enjoyed the talk by jamil as it was not a technical talk, just a lot of commonsence really
Cheers
Ray


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## brendanos (2/11/08)

Troydo said:


> in regards to the fosters octoberfest.. it still has that damn yeast character all thier beers had...



Yeah it's rather hard to appreciate "fine malt" and "noble hop" character when there's a rather outspoken Australian yeast character talking over the top of them.


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## Back Yard Brewer (2/11/08)

berapnopod said:


> Oooohhh!!
> 
> One other thing I learnt from Chris White (I think)...
> 
> ...




Yes how true. I will be keeping a closer eye on my fernetation during the warm weather in particular. One of my SABSOSA entries had that exact problem according to my judging sheet. Something that I had noticed myself but could not explain the taste or how it happened until the conference information.

BYB


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## BrenosBrews (2/11/08)

berapnopod said:


> This was put up on a slide, all on its own, by Phil Sexton. I was waiting for him to make some very sage point, but he just reiterated the words without further explanation.
> 
> I was perplexed to say the least.
> 
> Berp.



I think he said it just to try and be a smart arse/stir some shit in a joking around way. He should stick to business development...did he actually look up from his notes ONCE?


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