# Grain Substitution



## THE DRUNK ARAB (14/1/04)

Thanks to Doc I have a recipe for a "clone" of Leffe Blond.
It includes Belgian biscuit malt which I will replace with Vienna. The other malts which I need are Honey malt and Belgian Aromatic. Does anyone know what may be good substitutes for these? or if anyone has some I would be happy to swap some grain or hops or yeast or pay you, I only require about 150gms of each  .

Cheers and bollocks
TDA


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## crackers (14/1/04)

TDA

check this out, it gives the colour, sg and taste of the malt you want

http://www.byo.com/referenceguide/grains/grains2.html

makes it easier to find something similar to subsitue.


cheers
crackers


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## wessmith (14/1/04)

Hi TDA,

The URL that Crackers gave has some good info but you might want to consider:
Biscuit Malt - The nearest is Weyermann CaraAmber at 60-80EBC (use a little less), Vienna is a little too light on for colour and the biscuity effect, Honey Malt is made by Gambrinus in the US of A and is not available here in Australia. As it happens it is a Melanoidin malt just like Belgian Aromatic, so you can substitute German Melanoidin malt for both. 

BIG question - what yeast are you going to use??

Wes


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## big d (14/1/04)

on the grain substitution thread do you know a sub for special-b wes?
also whats farbmalt? used in huberts beer recipes you mentioned on the pils thread.its in dunkles hefeweizen and alt recipes.

cheers
big d


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## Guest Lurker (14/1/04)

Big D
If its from a German site the literal translation is coloured malt. Not that that really helps. Oh well, back to drinking beer. And a very nice partial mash it is too, munich malt plus Goldings hops = not a bad amber ale, had several, think I might have a few more.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (14/1/04)

Wes, thanks for that info. I will be using the Wyeast 1762 Abbey II. How is Maltcraft going?

Big D CaraAroma can be substituted for special B and Farbmalt is Black malt, used mainly for colouring and a little goes a long way.

Cheers and bollocks
Mark


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## big d (14/1/04)

thanxs for that mark much appreciated.
thanxs also simon.hope to sink a few beers with you when i get to perth during the year if your not in work mode o/s at the time.hope you can make a perth brewers gathering via this site when im down that way.

cheers 
big d


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## big d (14/1/04)

opps.sorry tda hope to catch up with you at a grumpys meet when i get to adelaide as well.gotta do the perth/adelaide relly run this year.more like a beer forum get together for me.  :chug:


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## wessmith (15/1/04)

TDA & Big D,

Weyermann developed CaraAmber and CaraAroma to directly compete with the Belgian Biscuit and Special B malts as they used to be when DeWolf Cosyns maltings was still operating in Belguim. Today DWC has been closed down but the Weyermann products are still available and are excellent substitutes. We have all the above in stock.

Farbmalz or Farbmalt is the traditional German name for "colour" malt AKA Roast malt or Black malt - take your pick. Germany does not have a Roasted Barley as such as the Rhineheitsgebot law says it must be malted. Colour is normally around 1200 EBC.

Mark, your yeast choice sounds great. Good luck with the brew. And Yep, Maltcraft is doing fine. Been taking the latest shipment of Fawcett malts into stock this week - have new seasons Maris Otter and Golden Promise as well as Rye malt. I can see a Rogan "test brew" coming up...

Wes.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (15/1/04)

Wes, looking at the Weyermann site I note it says both the CaraAmber and Melanoidin malts add some red colour to the beer.
I will be using approximately 170grams of Melanoidin and 113grams of CaraAmber in a 19 litre batch. Do you think my Blonde clone may be a little darker with these amounts?

Cheers
TDA


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## wessmith (15/1/04)

TDA, I would back off the Melanoidin to 100gms max. This malt throws a very reddish hue to the beer. You only need the melanoidin to give a more maltier flavour profile to the beer - not colour. You could increase the Caraamber slightly to say 150gms and while it too has a slight reddish hue, it is much less than Caraamber. This should give you a beer colour of approx 13 EBC (a pale lager is around 7 to 10) assuming the rest of your grain bill is pale malt and you are targetting 1050 to 1060 OG.

Wes.


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## Gout (15/1/04)

Wes, Do you have your malts setup in a promash file i could use? Or do we need to enter them in as per the specs on the web (JW ale is missing??)

thanks, just want to start using the spec's on the malt i am using rather than the standard promash options


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## Gout (15/1/04)

Just to expand on my above post, 

When i try to add a grain, i need the following:
Gravity Potential as SG pppg,
% moisture Content
EBC colour
course Fine difference
% yeild - Fine Grind (FG)
dry,
as is,
max in batch (100%)
% protein
Diast power
%TSN

Now from the web (http://www.maltcraft.com/joewhitespecs2.html)
I can get the following
% moisture Content 
Extract fine grinde (dry or as is?)
colour (EBC)
total protein (% protein??)
soluble protein (?)
Kolbach Index (pro does not need?)
Viscosity mpa/sec (pro does not need?)

any help on filling out the missing area's?


Gravity Potential as SG pppg,
course Fine difference
% yeild - Fine Grind (FG) - (dry,as is? )
% protein - (total protein, soluble protein ?)
Diast power
%TSN

thanks confused


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## wessmith (15/1/04)

Ben,

We are in discussions with Promash at this point to see if we can get an import file for Promash that does not completely overwrite the existing file. We will let everyone know when and if this is possible.

Regarding your request for the "missing specs" - Promash wil automatically calculate the SG pppg if you want. You will need to switch to imperial units. Fine Grind is "dry basis", F/C difference is really not needed for homebrew setting, % protein is total protein, DP is always high on Aussie malts - typically arouind 300 WK for our TAM and Export Pilsner, to the point we no longer report it. TSN is available on the Certificate of Analysis if you need it. 

The specs on the webbsite are the same we provide to all our micro cutomers, but if you want to see it from the maltsters, we are happy to email the appropriate C of A.

I actually posted the TAM specs about a week ago but here they are again:
Moisture: 4.0%
Extract FG - Dry basis: 81.8%
Wort colour: 6.7 EBC
Diastatic Power (DP): 320 WK
Total Protein: 10.5%
Soluble Protein: 4.86%
Kolback: 46.3%

Lets know if you need any clarification.

Wes.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (16/1/04)

Wes, here is the recipe which I am basing my clone on.
13 EBC is a bit darker than I wanted. I will still brew it but is there something that I can use that may be a bit lighter? Maybe some CaraHell?
Thanks

Cheers and bollocks
TDA



************************
** Leffe Blond recipe **
************************
from "Beer Captured" by Tess amd Mark Szamatulski
OG=1.067, FG=1.016, SRM=7, IBU=26, abv=6.5

Mash:
11.75# Belgian Two-row Pilsner Malt
4 OZ. (113 g) Belgian Biscuit Malt
4 oz. (113 g) Belgian Aromatic Malt
4 oz. (113 g) German Munich Malt
2 OZ. (57 g) Honey Malt
Mash at 152F (65.6C).
Bring the water to a boil, remove from the heat and add:
8 oz. (226 g) Belgian Clear Candi Sugar
2 OZ. (57 g) Malto Dextrin
1/2 OZ. (21 g) Pride of Ringwood at 9.3AA (4.7 HBU) (bittering hop)
Boil for 45 minutes then add:
1/2 OZ. (14 g) Styrian Goldings (flavor hop)
1 tsp. (5 ml) Irish Moss
Boil for 15 minutes.
Chill and pitch.
1st choice yeast: Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II; Ferment at 68-72F (20-22C)
2nd choice yeast: Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes; Ferment at 68-72F (20-22C)
Primary for 7 days, then rack to secondary.
Bottle when fermentation is complete, target gravity is reached and beer has
cleared (approximately 3 weeks) with:
1/2 cup (120 ml) Corn Sugar and 1/3 cup (80 ml) Belgian Clear Candi Sugar
that has been boiled for 10 minutes in 2 cups (473 ml) of water.
Let prime at 70F (21C) for approximately 5 weeks until carbonated, then
store at cellar temperature.


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## wessmith (16/1/04)

TDA, plugged this in to Promash. You recipe uses a lot more pilsner malt than I had allowed yesterday - in fact you might have a look at the low efficiency in the recipe and adjust to your own system.

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 19.00 Wort Size (L): 19.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.95
Anticipated OG: 1.067 Plato: 16.32
Anticipated EBC: 10.9
Anticipated IBU: 0.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 22.35 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.057 SG 13.99 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Extract EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
89.5 5.33 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.058 3
1.9 0.11 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.001 53
1.9 0.11 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.001 11
1.9 0.11 kg. Weyermann Melanoidin Germany 1.001 40
1.0 0.06 kg. Honey Malt Canada 1.001 35
3.8 0.23 kg. Candi Sugar (clear) Generic 1.005 1


colour looks OK at around 11 EBC. Sub melanoidin for the honey amlt but would still suggest you take on board my comments from yesterday re melanoidin and Caraamber malts I would drop the maltodextrin completely - can only think the originator was trying to comoensate for the candi sugar.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (16/1/04)

Thanks again Wes.
I haven't plugged the recipe into Beersmith yet but will obviously compensate for efficiency when I do. I will be aiming for a final OG of 1060.
I am also going to use Tassie Goldings flowers for bittering.
I have taken all your suggestions on board.

C&B
TDA


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## Doc (24/2/04)

TDA,

How did this brew turn out ?
Must be just ready for tasting.

Also Wes, based on the grain substitution info you have given in this thread is the following a good substitution guide ?

Belgian Biscuit = Weyermann CaraAmber
Special B	= Weyermann CaraAroma
Farbmalz	= Roast or Black Malt
Belgian Aromatic = Hoepfner Melanoidin 


Beers,
Doc


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (24/2/04)

Doc, unfortunately the warm weather in Adelaide has stopped me from brewing any beer. I hope that I can get it done in the next month or so but with the partner and youngest daughter coming back from OS this Saturday I feel brewing time may be limited.  
I will report when it actually happens.

C&B
TDA


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## Snow (24/2/04)

Hey Doc, 

I noticed on (ex-grumpy) Dave's website www.brewgoliath.com.au that he mentions he is stocking Belgian Special B. He must be the only HBS in Australia with it, I reckon. He may have some of the other Belgians, too.

- Snow


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## wessmith (24/2/04)

Doc, your substitute malts are spot-on. You can also use JWM Amber for a slightly milder "biscuit" flavour, and dark munich for a (very) much milder melanoidin.

Wes.


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## Batz (24/2/04)

If someone would do up a chart with all the substitutions on it

Well........... I would copy it for my file  


I know I am a lazy bugger


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## wedge (12/5/04)

has anyone brewed this yet?


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## Jovial_Monk (12/5/04)

Mark, just toast some light malt in place of the biscuit. the honey malt is supposed to increase maltiness, mebbe sub some carapils?

Jovial Monk


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (13/5/04)

wedge, it is going to happen SOON :angry: I will report on it when brewed.

JM, I am subbing CaraAmber for the Biscuit and Melanoidin for the Aromatic and Honey malts.

C&B
TDA


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## wedge (13/5/04)

was that a bad question to ask?


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (14/5/04)

No wedge, not a bad question. It has been on the "to brew" list for 4 months now and other beers keep getting in the way  !

C&B
TDA


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## wedge (14/5/04)

yep. I'm going to do it for you this weekend  Have to use kolsh yeast though will ferment at 20oC


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## wedge (16/5/04)

ok few things didn't work and a few did. 

The yeast was old and is not ready in time. Tried the hoegarden wyeast, could have an infection, not really sure. So i'm using JM Windsor.

Decided i wanted Belgium hops rather than POR. So bittering with Hallertau and Tettnaga and Finishing with Hallertau.Only 30ish IBU

Throwing in 500g of B/Kandy and 300g of honey for some distinctive flavours.

I also accidently bought Pale Malt istead of Pilsner aswell. So this beer is a bit darker. Will post final recipe.


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## wedge (16/5/04)

Ok this is what i did. Promash said Honey gives not points to your wort and Belgium candi only gives 1.005. WRONG!! :angry:

The wort finished with a SG of 1.078. Thats effiecincy of 90% or more. I'm sure that if nothing else the B/Candy probably has a SG similar to invert sugar!! Dammit. Oh well. Live and learn. Other than that is taste beaut!  

Honey Blond

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.50 Wort Size (L): 20.50
Total Grain (kg): 6.63
Anticipated OG: 1.061 Plato: 15.08
Anticipated EBC: 17.1
Anticipated IBU: 31.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
83.0 5.50 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
1.7 0.11 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 70
1.7 0.11 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
1.7 0.11 kg. Weyermann Melanoidin Germany 1.037 70
4.5 0.30 kg. Honey Malt Canada 1.001 27
7.5 0.50 kg. Candi Sugar 1.005 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Plug 4.75 13.4 60 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 5.60 17.1 60 min.
15.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Plug 4.75 0.7 15 min.
15.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Plug 4.75 0.0 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.30 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 10 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

Danstar Windsor




:angry:


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## Jovial_Monk (16/5/04)

hahahahahaha Wedge! Glad the Windsor came in handy after all. NEVER accept yeast more than 6 months old, certainly not at full price!

And your kerfuffle with the promash figures only confirms me in my belief to use pen paper + calculator for a while b4 moving on to fancy programs


Jovial Monk


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## wedge (17/5/04)

That true JM. I only assumed that The B/Candy i got was === promash candy


oh well


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## Hoops (3/6/04)

Batz said:


> If someone would do up a chart with all the substitutions on it
> 
> Well........... I would copy it for my file
> 
> ...


Here you go, just for you Batz
I played around with this today so it can be printed out on A3
(I just found where the laminator at work lives h34r: )

EDIT : This info is from the BYO website link that Crackers posted above. 

View attachment Grain___Adjunct_chart.doc


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## Doc (3/6/04)

Great work Hoops.
That is heading to the laminator next time I'm in the office too.

Now we just need to create the substituion tables.

eg
Belgian Biscuit = Weyermann CaraAmber
Special B = Weyermann CaraAroma
Farbmalz = Roast or Black Malt
Belgian Aromatic = Hoepfner Melanoidin 

Beers,
Doc


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## Goat (3/6/04)

Great stuff Hoops - I've been looking for something like this for ages !!


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## GMK (23/7/04)

Can anyone tell me what is Bries Extra Special Malt?

What can i substitute for it.

thansk in advance.

my stout recipe calls for it...


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## Jovial_Monk (23/7/04)

Have you looked at the Bries site?

Jovial Monk


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## GMK (23/7/04)

no...

what is the bries site?


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## johnno (23/7/04)

GMK said:


> Can anyone tell me what is Bries Extra Special Malt?
> 
> What can i substitute for it.
> 
> ...


 GMK
I thought it may be something you got asked at the HBS at the end of your order. As in "would you like Bries with that"?

http://www.briess.com/

cheers


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## GMK (23/7/04)

Thanks Johno


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## jayse (23/7/04)

GMK, theres these neat little letters that get you all this infomation.
Its called GOOGLE, simple type briess and your up to your head in malt.


Jayse


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## Murray (24/7/04)

jayse said:


> GMK, theres these neat little letters that get you all this infomation.
> Its called GOOGLE, simple type briess and your up to your head in malt.
> 
> 
> Jayse


 Or just click here and type your request


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