# Enhanced Biab With Lauter Tun Stage



## Bribie G

BALTIC

Introducing my tweaked brewing system. 

I've been BIAB-ing for nearly 3 years, doing full-volume mashes in a 40L electric urn. 
This has earned me some gongs and plaques and a shelf ornament or two as well as a succession of nice house brews. 

However a couple of issues which I find increasingly frustrating:

*Efficiency*

A portion of sweet wort always remains trapped in the grains, and the bigger the grain bill the more you lose. You can do a dunk sparge and boil longer but this isn't a particularly accurate or reproducible technique and IMHO it increases the trub problem further.

*Big trub *
With BIAB the wort going into the kettle is quite turbid. This is easily fixed with a good boil and a good floc, but it does rob wort volume. And just to clear one thing up: I'm not talking about clear wort into kettle always gives better beer in the glass - I don't subscribe to that generally (jury is out on a couple of issues like chill haze) here I'm concentrating on wort recovery levels only. 

Answer: just add more grain to the recipe and up the brew length by a couple of litres what's an extra couple of dollars tightarse.  

Yes no problem with that, but after visiting a couple of brew days, and touring a craft brewery, I now realise that over the last three years I have done the litre-equivalent of 15 20 brew days simply to throw them down the sink. I'd prefer the beer in the glass, not in the jellyfish in Moreton Bay. 
Or put it another way it would be nice to do a 19-20L length to end up with a corny, and not a 23L length to take into account all the losses. 
It would also make it more feasible to follow other peoples recipes and particularly clone recipes that get published. 

So I have introduced a fairly inexpensive and rather elegantly simple stage to my BIAB brews. It combines elements of full-volume BIAB, Maxi-BIAB and 3 vessel brewing (although a different three vessels as you will see) and in the trial today it added around half an hour to the brew day. 

However this was just about balanced out by my improved heating arrangements I have over the side immersion heaters purchased a couple of weeks ago, and this has brought my ramping times way down with step mashes and with raise-to-boil. 

*BALTIC*

Bag and Lauter Tun in Combination

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves:







So it's basically what they would do at, say, Murrays Brewery where they have the single heated vessel for mashing and boiling, with a passive lauter tun to one side where the wort is extracted and pumped back to the original cleaned vessel for boiling . 

Note to 3v and HERMS / RIMS guys we are talking about a single active vessel here i.e temperature controllable so no separate mash tun or separate kettle. 

I did a classic BIAB yesterday, and a BALTIC today using exactly the same recipe. 

5000 Perle
100 Caraaroma
100 Flaked Wheat

15 Magnum 60 mins
30 Cascade 20 mins
30 Centennial 10 mins
30 Cascade flameout
30 Centennial dry

W-1056



Results for the bog standard BIAB were more or less what I get for this size of grain bill, 25L batch yielded a 1L Schott Bottle which is probably 50% recoverable, I had to stop filling the cube as it started running break, and the remains were around 3L of unrecoverable trub. 






OG was 1045 which is reported as 72%. 

I guess after fermentation I'll get a keg plus two PETs

*****************************

So onto today's brew

The lauter tun is simply a domed false bottom in a 20L wash bowl, which it fits neatly - with pickup tube which exits the LT through a drilled hole. Thanks to Thirsty Boy for the basic design. 






Hot liquor for the sparge comes just from a pail with an over the side heater, you can class that as a vessel although conceptually you could just as easily use an instant hot water device (which some guys do).






It was also a good excuse to buy a refractometer to keep an eye on the gravity of the runnings. Hehehe

So, normal BIAB but note the lower mash level 






I put a bubblewrap covering on it and lagged the urn as normal. 

Even at a Liquor to grist ratio of 3.5 : 1 it was still quite liquid and I'd have no trouble doing a step mash quite surprised.


After the mash, hoisted the bag and let it drain a while till it bacame handle-able, then tipped the grain into the LT to make a grain bed, ran the liquor out of the urn and commenced draining and fly sparging. I did a vorlauf first and although it came out a lot clearer it wasn't the clarity I had been hoping for. Sparged the first half into the urn on the floor and the second half into another bowl and kept adding to urn. Stopped sparging at 1010. 











See following post (images limit)


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## Bribie G

It was immediately obvious that it was clearer than my normal brews and coming to the boil the froth was lovely and creamy, not the grey and fungus looking stuff, and far less scummy material altogether. 






So at the end of the boil (which flocced spectacularly with BrewBrite) the yield was Schottie which has already dropped to a thin layer of break at the bottom, a full cube which is all bright wort, and the remains are just over a litre of unrecoverable – I'm rapt. 






So I should get a cornie plus at least 6 PETs. 

Gravity, measured again with the refrac, has come out at 1047, so a couple of points better efficiency but nothing to write home about at the moment. 
Plan B is to replace the big bowl with something more cylindrical that will give a better depth of wort and maybe settle down to a better grain bed as with the wide bowl the grain was tending to fluff to the top instead of compacting down, so more depth required I think. Bowl was only $8. The FB is just a bit too wide for a Bunnings Handy pail unfortunately. Also I went a bit fast I think, just had the hose squeezed off with a bulldog clip and it was either fast / stop  I'll be looking for a tap arrangement for the 10 mm ID tube to get fine control. 

Overall, I doughed in at 3.30 and was cleaned up at 7.45. Apart from the sparge most of the additional work is just prep and can be done while mashing is happening, and cleanup during boiling.


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## kelbygreen

If you put some alfoil with heap of small holes poked into it ontop of the grain bed when you vorlauf it will not disturb the grain bed, I usually vorlauf about 4-6 lts but alot say that a lt or so is enough


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## Acasta

Good bit of work, thanks for sharing.

One thing... did you consider using the urn for a HLT, then mashing in your plastic bucket (with false bottom attached), and lautering back into your urn (now kettle) for the remainder?


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## kelbygreen

where the BIAB in that??? lol he would just have a 2 vessel system  but its a nice piece of work I tried few things like this doing BIAB but more just used a esky as a tun and voile as a manifold lol


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## Bribie G

If I get a suitable bucket then I may well try that - The idea of the bag is to make the grain handling simple, but if the grain isn't going anywhere to start off with ..... bucket might also hold the heat better with my "normal" lagging, or I can trick it up with some cut-up lagging. It would work for isothermal mashes, but the urn is good because I can do all sorts of step mashes, being powered.


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## donburke

ingenious, and this is now a 2v system and has migrated from the simplicity of a single vessel biab system

i wonder if you could achieve a similar result by recirculating the wort during the mash of a traditional biab system ?


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## Acasta

kelbygreen said:


> where the BIAB in that??? lol he would just have a 2 vessel system  but its a nice piece of work I tried few things like this doing BIAB but more just used a esky as a tun and voile as a manifold lol


I also stuffed around doing BIAB, trying to get more vessels to make it more efficient. I decided to just go 3V in the end. My HLT is my old 19L bigW pot on the stove.



Bribie G said:


> If I get a suitable bucket then I may well try that - The idea of the bag is to make the grain handling simple, but if the grain isn't going anywhere to start off with ..... bucket might also hold the heat better with my "normal" lagging, or I can trick it up with some cut-up lagging. It would work for isothermal mashes, but the urn is good because I can do all sorts of step mashes, being powered.


If you had a plastic bucket you could definitely lag it efficiently and permanently. You could also use that immersion element of yours in there for the step mashing.


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## Bribie G

donburke said:


> ingenious, and this is now a 2v system and has migrated from the simplicity of a single vessel biab system
> 
> i wonder if you could achieve a similar result by recirculating the wort during the mash of a traditional biab system ?



The problem is getting the grain bed happening, which you can't really do with a bag. You can get the wort recirculating all you like but when you hoist the bag you're back to square one with cloudy wort running out of the bag, taking the path of least resistance. However in view of how freely the wort flowed in this experiment today I may try just lowering the entire bag into the bucket for a fly sparge, sitting on top of the FB and recirculate that way with a bit of vorlauf. The extra layer of voile, as KG says, could give a bit more filtering. I think the BrauMeister actually uses a filter to achieve this or am I mistaken?


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## kelbygreen

I think the braumeister in fact does not filter the wort it has a basket and a false bottom but MHB (with the older models as newer one has finner FB) was putting a fine bag material (guess like voile) over the FB to get it clearer. But I have never seen one in use only sitting on his shop floor so the whole process I would not know.

Now you got it all in one there bribie with the urn any way when you hoist all the small particles go threw. So my question is that I cannot see there with the wort in the urn do you run that back threw the grain bed then fly sparge ontop of it or leave it in the urn and just dump the grain to sparge with water? I am guessing the latter


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## MarkBastard

I was thinking about this too recently Bribie.

When I BIAB I start with 30L of strike water, end up with 26L pre boil and finish with about 22L in the kettle after a 60 minute boil (typically).

I would love to be able to filter all trub at all stages of brewing. Obviously you can use grain to filter the pre-boil wort and this is what 3V brewers do.

However I also would like to filter post-boil trub as much as possible so that a cube just contains clear wort.

Anyway, your idea seems like a decent start of a conceptual idea. Can't help but think the progression could just end up at 3V brewing though! I mean you have an immersion heater for your sparge water, a lauter tun and a kettle so you're sort of already there right?

If you wanted to keep it 1V I like the idea of a cylinder inner-pot inside the kettle, with a bottom that can hold grain weight without bending but also has a very fine filter on it. Then having a tap with a pickup tube right at the bottom of the kettle, hoisting the inner cylinder slightly and draining wort off and tipping it back in manually into the top of the inner cylinder. This should clarify the wort.

Ideally you could solve the other issue I have with BIAB (hoisting the bag) by having the hoisting of the inner-cylinder dependent on a system where it uses the walls of the outer pot for leverage somehow. So there's no need for a skyhook or anything like that. Even if it's just the system the braumeister uses where you manually lift a bit and then there's some pegs to rest it on.

As for kettle trub, is there a way to filter that without needing a hop back? I'm a bit of a jew I guess and I throw my hop pellets directly in the kettle, and when I get to the last few litres there's so much hop debris it's hard to say what is hops, and what is real trub. I'd love to be able to just properly filter it out. 

Are there filters that work by assigning a space for a known quantity of debris that's heavier than the liquid, and allowing a sort of trench for it to collect in? I've drawn a shitty ms paint diagram of what I had in mind:



I think I've seen a similar concept in pond filters, where you sort of allow gravity to help your filtration. Having a filter like this would allow your pickup tube to be right at the bottom of the kettle which would help when recirculating to clear before boiling, and then post boil you know exactly how much 'loss to trub' you're going to allow in your system. If the filter is 1L then it's 1L. You'd set the filter size based on what you think you need for the amount of trub you collect.

So in summary my idea is:
- Urn with a tap / pickup tube at its lowest point.
- Inner rigid cylinder replaces the bag. Rigid cylinder has solid walls, open top, reinforced mesh bottom.
- After mashing you lift rigid cylinder about half way and drain kettle and manually recirculate the collected wort to the top of the rigid cylinder in the same way eski mashes recirc their first runnings.
- Once the worst is running clear you lift the rigid cylinder higher to let it fully drain. Hopefully the grain bed isn't disturbed and it continues to filter out. I guess you can recirc more if you want to.
- Sparging optional.
- After boil you filter on the way to the cube to remove as much boil trub as possible. Almost all of the liquid leaves the kettle, you don't leave any trub behind until it starts getting really silly.


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## Bribie G

Yup, missing photo - I pour the wort that was already collected into the urn over the grain bed and start vorlaufing. I think I need something at least 25L and cylindrical to get the GB happening better.

Edit: Mark, a Bunnings Handi pail fits nicely into a Crown Urn - pity the falsie is a tad too big for it, that was going to be my next maniac experiment


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## zebba

Bribie G said:


> The problem is getting the grain bed happening, which you can't really do with a bag. You can get the wort recirculating all you like but when you hoist the bag you're back to square one with cloudy wort running out of the bag, taking the path of least resistance. However in view of how freely the wort flowed in this experiment today I may try just lowering the entire bag into the bucket for a fly sparge, sitting on top of the FB and recirculate that way with a bit of vorlauf. The extra layer of voile, as KG says, could give a bit more filtering. I think the BrauMeister actually uses a filter to achieve this or am I mistaken?


I'm currently doing a 3v system with a bag in an esky and stones for a false bottom. I get major channeling down the sides because of this. I even tried using a pump to recirc for a good 15 minutes and it was still cloudy as. With the bag, you either have to elevate it somehow, in which case most the recirculation just goes down the sides, or you don't evelate and get stuck with just a trickle coming out the tap. Or, as Bribie stated, you pull the bag and all the recirculation was for nothing.

Or at least, in my experience...

And yes, I get HEAPS of trub. The esky/stones/bag solution was just to keep me going in the short term till I got off my lazy ass and made a manifold. 18 months later or something and I'm still taking a 20% hit in my efficiency with every brew.


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## kelbygreen

yeah could be your problem. As by the looks of that I doubt the grain and all the wort in the urn would fit. As said to do it properly which of coarse would be easier with your pail as a MT is to put the whole lot into it and then vorlauf till its clear then start your sparging. but doing this you could just mash in th pail but the step brews you would have to use the urn or use infusion or decant. Then it wont be BIAB and it will be just a 2V system. which is fine I used it for a while and nothing wrong only thing you cant heat the wort while your still sparging lol


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## MarkBastard

Bribie G said:


> Edit: Mark, a Bunnings Handi pail fits nicely into a Crown Urn - pity the falsie is a tad too big for it, that was going to be my next maniac experiment



Oh yeah? I wonder if you could cut out the bottom and replace it with something sturdy enough? Obviously one of those Ikea splatter guards would act as the filter, but you'd want something trust worthy for the actual bottom too.


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## kelbygreen

zebba a manifold is as simple and as complex as you can make it. bunnings have straight lengths of cooper for like $13 I think its about 1.1m. depending on the esky you may get away with the out side ring or may need 1 inner tube or 2 inner tubes. If you need help or some info shoot me a PM I made 2 one for 32lt esky and one for 70lt one its not hard.


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## kelbygreen

mark you could drill holes into the bottom so the liquid goes threw and the mesh would sit on the bottom as a FB I doubt you would have to cut the bottom out


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## MarkBastard

Other thing I've been wondering about is does anyone do a sort of combination infusion mash?

Like let's say you were going 2V.

You fill up your urn with say 30L of water and get it to whatever your strike temp is.

You drain some of it off into an eski mash tun and then add your grain to the mash tun. The ratio is just a typical 3V ratio.

You get the remaining water in the mash tun to a much higher temp, then at the end of the mash you add this hotter water to the eski enough to get the total temperature to mash out temperatures. And now you've got a ratio similar to what BIAB has, with all the water and all the grain in the one vessel. You give it a good mix to thin out the sugarz. You can now position the urn as a boiler and start running the wort off into the kettle.

If you had a mash tun with minimal dead space this could be a half decent way to do it? Sort of best of both worlds? Only 2 vessels, only one active vessel, wort clarity and perhaps better efficiency than BIAB due to the mash out? Sparging could be achieved by having another passive vessel (bucket or kitchen pot) to collect water from the urn before it's positioned as the kettle.


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## MarkBastard

kelbygreen said:


> mark you could drill holes into the bottom so the liquid goes threw and the mesh would sit on the bottom as a FB I doubt you would have to cut the bottom out



Do you reckon it'd be strong enough like that though? I guess you could drill heaps of holes, add the screen to the top, and reinforce the bottom with some metal rods or something. I assume the pails don't have fully flat bottoms. Do they have a bottom lip?


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## zebba

kelbygreen said:


> zebba a manifold is as simple and as complex as you can make it. bunnings have straight lengths of cooper for like $13 I think its about 1.1m. depending on the esky you may get away with the out side ring or may need 1 inner tube or 2 inner tubes. If you need help or some info shoot me a PM I made 2 one for 32lt esky and one for 70lt one its not hard.


Yeah I know it's not hard. But I'm lazy. And there's a part of me that likes to be different 

And honestly, the only problem with it is the kettle losses and fermenter losses. It's ridiculously easy to clean, and most importantly, I get awesome efficiency out of the mash tun. Seeing as I like to do BIG beers when I can, mash tun effiency is far more important to me then brewhouse efficiency, and the sole reason I didn't just go straight BIAB.


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## Cocko

Brilliant BG, brilliant!


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## kelbygreen

zebba: my manifold slips apart and cleans in about 1 min with the bag I had to rinse it hang it up and hose it off pain in the but!. 

Mark, well yes you are right you could mash say 3lts/kg and then infuse with x amount of boiling water to achieve a mash out temp. there may be some water you boiled left over but once you vorlauf it would be down close to 70 deg so when you start draining just add the rest like a fly sparge. 

The holes in the bucket should be fine make the mesh tight with small silicon hose split down the middle and wrapped around it and the hole in the bottom you could start 20mm away from the edge so the corner/side holds the mesh not the bottom


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## MarkBastard

What if the mesh wasn't rigid though mate? The plastic with holes in it in say the middle would be holding all of the weight of the grains + liquid. I guess you could have a rigid mesh and a fine mesh together, both with the silicone hose around the edge.


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## the_new_darren

You have to be joking Briber?

Only looked at your first post and why the feck would you not just put some mesh over a pickup tube in the bottom of your urn. Mash in it and drain to a bucket. Tip out grain from urn, transfer wort from bucket into urn and then boil in the urn? 

cheers

the_new_darren


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## kelbygreen

true but if you dont drill the holes to close together they should be fine. But as you say maybe use heavy mesh and make a voile sock for it. that would work as said the bag works well but once lifed or with the grain suspended the wort isnt going threw the grain making a grain bed. But people use bucket in bucket mash tun, this is a bucket inside another bucket the inside one has hole say 1-2mm drilled into the bottom so that acts like a FB. with mesh there to I cannot see a problem depening on batch size and grain bill


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## the_new_darren

If you have an urn and a bucket, why bother with the "sviss voile" or muslim cloth?


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## Tim F

Mark^Bastard said:


> Oh yeah? I wonder if you could cut out the bottom and replace it with something sturdy enough? Obviously one of those Ikea splatter guards would act as the filter, but you'd want something trust worthy for the actual bottom too.



Something like this? 





I used a 15L pot in my system for the 'bag', cut out the bottom and pop riveted in a disc of 2mm perforated stainless, which cost about $40. You could call it brew in a pot h34r: 

Love the idea Bribie, you could add a little pump to that quite easily to vorlauf then pump back to the kettle! I reckon you could also batch sparge quite nicely, maybe with a bigger lauter tun though?


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## the_new_darren

Tim,

Still confused. Isn't that a mashtun?

BIAB was an entry point only I thought. Seems Bribie and your pic have gone almost to the same effort of 3V brewery and not realised that BIAB was not even necessary?

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Tim F

the_new_darren said:


> Tim,
> 
> Still confused. Isn't that a mashtun?
> 
> BIAB was an entry point only I thought. Seems Bribie and your pic have gone almost to the same effort of 3V brewery and not realised that BIAB was not even necessary?
> 
> cheers
> 
> the_new_darren


Nah its the pot that sits inside my mash tun to hold the grain - kinda like a false bottom but with sides. After mashing & recircing I can lift out that pot without disturbing the grain bed and then boil in the 'mash tun'


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## the_new_darren

So, Its like a metal bag?

the_new_darren


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## the_new_darren

Cocko,

Did yuo look at the title of the thread?

I hope your not shitting on the tshirts  

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry821683

Post 14 Cocko:

Yeah, I love shitting in the shower...

And on your chest.


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## Cocko

the_new_darren said:


> Cocko,
> 
> Did yuo look at the title of the thread?
> 
> I hope your not shitting on the tshirts
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry821683
> 
> Post 14 Cocko:
> 
> Yeah, I love shitting in the shower...
> 
> And on your chest.



Ok, so thats a different thread, back to this one - are you contributing?

No.



Sorry, Bribes, this DH get me....


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## the_new_darren

Dont be sorry Cocko,

I am actually trying to discuss the merits if there are any of BIAB.

Like I mentioned previously. Apart from an entry in your FIRST all-grain beer, any "enhancement" is a 2 or 3 vessel system with pumps.

Can anyone find the original thread by Pistol Patch about BIAB? (im not good at searching) but it was funny!


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## booargy

if you had a small pump and controlled the urn with a PID. the urn could be used to step the mash similar to how the brewmaster works. then the PID could also be used to control the boil.


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## Guysmiley54

I'm looking back at the reasons given for working on this method.

1) Reducing trub
2) gaining more clear wort (and better efficiency) ready to pitch into your fermenter.

Although I barely have 1% of your experience I have found in my number of BIAB brews so far that it's the use of a NC cube that is making it harder to seperate trub.

I wonder if you added a few more litres to your strike water and did a standard BIAB but used an immersion chiller and a floccer whether it would make it easier to get your volume up and your trub out of your cube?

I have been mulling over the same couple of obstacles myself and considering ditching NC.

My last BIAB batch gave me 24 litres of clear wort at 75% efficiency, I did however have to muck around with a filter to gain 2.5L back from my trub. I filtered slowly, boiled, cooled and used it for an active starter which I pitched 12-14 hours later.

Just my 2c


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## the_new_darren

booargy said:


> if you had a small pump and controlled the urn with a PID. the urn could be used to step the mash similar to how the brewmaster works. then the PID could also be used to control the boil.




I agree. But why use a svissvoille bag? If you are using a PID and pump, why not use a false bottom or stainless mesh tube "filter" at the bottom of the tun?

I will mention it again. If you have an urn, you dont need a "bag"


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## Nick JD

Awesome BribieG.

I'm gonna have to do a thread on my vacuum lauter some day. Nothing like 26" of Hg to get that last litre of syrupy sugaz out without introducing high pH hot water...


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## the_new_darren

One day I will post a picture of my "pressed" wort.

Nothing more than a cylinder a mesh botton, a piece of wood on top and a car jack for pressure.

simple and works well.

Also i have a double thickness vaccuum sealed stainless mashtun but again for another thread


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## Nick JD

the_new_darren said:


> Also i have a double thickness vaccuum sealed stainless mashtun but again for another thread



Please start a thread. It sounds interesting. 

Sharing knowledge is much more satisfying than deriding other's. That's the work of fellows with small pricks.


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## the_new_darren

Hey Nick,

I can't be bothered photographing it.

Suffice to say its an old liquid nitrogen storage container modified into a mashtun.

Deriding others as you call it is nothing other than assuring people that everything is OK and stop thinking for yourselves.

If you don't like it....then don't think

cheers

darren


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## MarkBastard

Yes Darren, the metal basket thing replaces the bag.


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## MarkBastard

Tim F said:


> Something like this?
> 
> View attachment 48655
> 
> 
> I used a 15L pot in my system for the 'bag', cut out the bottom and pop riveted in a disc of 2mm perforated stainless, which cost about $40. You could call it brew in a pot h34r:
> 
> Love the idea Bribie, you could add a little pump to that quite easily to vorlauf then pump back to the kettle! I reckon you could also batch sparge quite nicely, maybe with a bigger lauter tun though?



Any chance you could show us more pics of that mate?


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## goomboogo

the_new_darren said:


> Suffice to say its an old liquid nitrogen storage container modified into a mashtun.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> darren



So your mashtun came second-hand from the sperm bank.


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## booargy

goomboogo said:


> So your mashtun came second-hand from the sperm bank.



first brew was some sort of cream ale


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## Tim F

Mark^Bastard said:


> Any chance you could show us more pics of that mate?


For sure, i can't post links or pics from my phone but I have a ton of pics of my build in my thread in the gear forum called 15l stovetop herms, it's a couple of pages back. Only real difference in my system compared to what you are talking about is I use a heat exchanger for temp control instead of an urn element directly.


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## Bribie G

Guysmiley54 said:


> I'm looking back at the reasons given for working on this method.
> 
> 1) Reducing trub
> 2) gaining more clear wort (and better efficiency) ready to pitch into your fermenter.
> 
> Although I barely have 1% of your experience I have found in my number of BIAB brews so far that it's the use of a NC cube that is making it harder to seperate trub.
> 
> I wonder if you added a few more litres to your strike water and did a standard BIAB but used an immersion chiller and a floccer whether it would make it easier to get your volume up and your trub out of your cube?
> 
> I have been mulling over the same couple of obstacles myself and considering ditching NC.
> 
> My last BIAB batch gave me 24 litres of clear wort at 75% efficiency, I did however have to muck around with a filter to gain 2.5L back from my trub. I filtered slowly, boiled, cooled and used it for an active starter which I pitched 12-14 hours later.
> 
> Just my 2c





Yes guy, that's what I've actually been doing (apart from the crash chilling which doesn't affect hot break) and having to do 25L batches in order to get a 19L cornie plus 2 or three PETs for the archive. Hence the wastage. When I get the efficiency thing sorted (probably by using a deeper vessel to get a more compact grain bed) I can hopefully go right down to 21.5L batches. 

So roughly (running it through BeerMate) and saying that grain is $3.50 a kilo and hops are $9 for a foil

For a 5% ABV normally hopped all malt beer just going on Craftbrewers shop prices, ignoring other inputs like yeast etc:

25L batch at 70% efficiency = 6kg of grain and 75g of hops = *$28.50*


21.5L batch at 85% efficiency (as confirmed by TB who knows people who use my exact lauter tun design which G&G used to sell as a premade unit) = 4.3kg of grain and 64g of hops =* $ 21.45*

The hops just scale, but with the grain - the two "improvements" work in synergy and really drag the cost down - as I said, now to work on the efficiency :lol:

Edit: so it's not really a question of "RDWHAHB and just chuck an extra half a kilo of malt at it" - with say 80 brews a year I could be looking at a few hundred dollars a year savings - could pay for another lagering fridge.


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## Anofre

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&id=48145
Sounds similar to what I do:

60L 'urn' filled & heat to strike.
Remove 30L to the fermenter & move over the ots element to get sparge ready/sanitize fermenter (keggle). Need no HLT. 
Mash in the urn with bag open draping over side.
DONT disturb the bag, just vorlauf & drain when clear to the boiler. The 'false bottom' is the dissused element in the urn with voile over. Drains from the bottom, so no dead space.
Fly sparge by hand with the sparge water from the fermenter which is at temp by the end of mash.


----------



## wobbly

Bribie G

The wheel has turned the full circle back to the start of the BIAB way back when!!!!

Have alook at the All In One Brewery subject here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...l+inone+brewery and in posts 122, 128 ans 132 you will see discussion and photos of what I did using a bucket in the urn and a pool puimp to recirculate etc.

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## spudfarmerboy

Imagine how much you'd save and how good the beers would be if you went 3V.


----------



## stux

Maybe instead of all the dicking around you should just bite the bullet and use your two urns to build a Brutus 2.0 

http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus20.html








At the end of the day, you could choose to run the system as a Brutus 20 Counter Recirculating Sparge System, or as two separate recirculating BIABs


its the dicking around which is a killer, and I suspect a more traditional 3V or 2V system would involve less dicking around, for the same gain


----------



## felten

I've been looking at how to do something similar to get the advantage of a grain bed filter, but still keep the single vessel system (ala braumeister). But it's not possible to do that without shelling out some cash on fittings and other stuff, so that will probably never happen for me. 

I can live with losing ~3L kettle trub in a 25L batch if it means I only need 1 vessel.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Well, not quite _exactly_ that lauter tun bribie..... Its a lauter tun, not a bag. The exact shape and dimensions will make a difference, as will the fact that the one i am talking about is being used by a guy who has been brewing on it for a decade, and how you use it will make more difference than the shape.

Lauter tuns require a modicum of skill, technique and good design to work really well, thats one of the reasons for using a BIAB rig. They have a much shallower learning curve, which is why its attractive to new brewers. Lots of brewers dont get 85% out of their LTs, lots dont get 75%.

Me, i use a recirculating system and a lauter tun, get 89-91% mash/lauter efficiency and very bright wort into my kettle, leaving less than a litre in the kettle after i cast out. And i'm still aiming for a 25L post boil volume (hot) to fill a corny and maybe one PET. So I'm obviously doing something wrong with my post brewhouse process compared to you and most of the guys who have commented.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

wobbly said:


> Bribie G
> 
> The wheel has turned the full circle back to the start of the BIAB way back when!!!!
> 
> Have alook at the All In One Brewery subject here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...l+inone+brewery and in posts 122, 128 ans 132 you will see discussion and photos of what I did using a bucket in the urn and a pool puimp to recirculate etc.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly



Dont mention this sort of stuff Wobbly.... I see lots of people recently working particularly hard to invent a revolutionary round device that you attach to things so you can roll them about the place. Pointing outside at all the cars sitting on top of things that look strangely similar to their design is just rude.


----------



## Tim F

Thirsty Boy said:


> Dont mention this sort of stuff Wobbly.... I see lots of people recently working particularly hard to invent a revolutionary round device that you attach to things so you can roll them about the place. Pointing outside at all the cars sitting on top of things that look strangely similar to their design is just rude.



It's all fun and games* :icon_cheers: 




*until someone loses their wort all over the garage floor


----------



## MarkBastard

Thirsty Boy said:


> Dont mention this sort of stuff Wobbly.... I see lots of people recently working particularly hard to invent a revolutionary round device that you attach to things so you can roll them about the place. Pointing outside at all the cars sitting on top of things that look strangely similar to their design is just rude.



I'm not interested in coming up with ideas to sound smart or to be the guy that makes the next big thing, I'm interested in how to make brewing easier for myself. So Wobbly's post was excellent.


----------



## Nick JD

Thirsty Boy said:


> Dont mention this sort of stuff Wobbly.... I see lots of people recently working particularly hard to invent a revolutionary round device that you attach to things so you can roll them about the place. Pointing outside at all the cars sitting on top of things that look strangely similar to their design is just rude.



Those who say that current technology has plateaued are destined to find their foot in their mouth.


----------



## Bribie G

LOve the look of that Brewtus - apart from the $600 for the pumps :unsure: 


Hey, update:
That false bottom was a 12" not a 9" :huh: 

Swapping it over, now I can go the handi bucket vessel as envisaged.

Watch this space


----------



## QldKev

Bribie G said:


> Yes guy, that's what I've actually been doing (apart from the crash chilling which doesn't affect hot break) and having to do 25L batches in order to get a 19L cornie plus 2 or three PETs for the archive. Hence the wastage. When I get the efficiency thing sorted (probably by using a deeper vessel to get a more compact grain bed) I can hopefully go right down to 21.5L batches.
> 
> So roughly (running it through BeerMate) and saying that grain is $3.50 a kilo and hops are $9 for a foil
> 
> For a 5% ABV normally hopped all malt beer just going on Craftbrewers shop prices, ignoring other inputs like yeast etc:
> 
> 25L batch at 70% efficiency = 6kg of grain and 75g of hops = *$28.50*
> 
> 
> 21.5L batch at 85% efficiency (as confirmed by TB who knows people who use my exact lauter tun design which G&G used to sell as a premade unit) = 4.3kg of grain and 64g of hops =* $ 21.45*
> 
> The hops just scale, but with the grain - the two "improvements" work in synergy and really drag the cost down - as I said, now to work on the efficiency :lol:
> 
> Edit: so it's not really a question of "RDWHAHB and just chuck an extra half a kilo of malt at it" - with say 80 brews a year I could be looking at a few hundred dollars a year savings - could pay for another lagering fridge.




I like the idea of playing with the BIAB design and taking it further. I was going to recirc my BIAB through a HERMS at one stage before I got sidetracked. 

I also like the idea of clear wort from the mashtun, so will be watching this closely.

To be fair it's not $28.50 vs $21.45 as you have different volumes.
To correct the volumes
$28.50 / 25L * 21.50L = $24.51 for a 21.5L batch at 70% efficiency 

The only other question, how much extra work has this introduced on brew day?

QldKev


----------



## MarkBastard

QldKev the different volumes were to account for trub loss I believe? Same final volume into fermenter from what I understand.


----------



## yardy

> Maybe instead of all the dicking around you should just bite the bullet and use your two urns to build a Brutus 2.0
> 
> http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus20.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, you could choose to run the system as a Brutus 20 Counter Recirculating Sparge System, or as two separate recirculating BIABs
> 
> 
> its the dicking around which is a killer, and I suspect a more traditional 3V or 2V system would involve less dicking around, for the same gain



i agree, from the pics it looks like there's a bit of pissing about.

yard


----------



## RdeVjun

Great thread Bribie G, you're always trying out new and interesting things while putting loads of thought and effort into it. :super: 

As a long- time 19L Maxi-BIABer I can relate that dunk sparging doesn't seem quite as effective as dropping the bag into an empty bucket and quasi- batch sparging by pouring in a few jugs of near- boiling water while stirring and after a pause, lifting the bag to lauter, then repeating the process. That's similar in some ways to what you're doing with the lauter, however it doesn't vourlaf or recirculate so the runnings are quite turbid so instead of draining the bed it is just the bag lift, the same as mashing. As you've noted though, turbid wort isn't necessarily the deal breaker, but of course it would be preferable if it were clear. I also leave sparge runnings to sit for a few minutes and much of the debris settles, so it is discarded.

Its also a given IMO that just one heated vessel and not two is much more attractive to novice brewers equipping for AG. B) 

Q. Would the LT drain by siphon do you think? Might need a bit of a suck to get going perhaps, maybe also with silicone tubing to help prevent it collapsing under suction. I know it is no biggie to drill a hole, but trying out a few different LTs without rendering them thereafter useless is what I had in mind. Was at CB yesterday and was eyeing off the falsies, knew I should've nabbed one then and there!

Oh, and nice pink mop too, that's one classy bit of kit! :lol:


----------



## Bribie G

You're not a real man till you get a rotating pink mop (goes into a whirling bucket a bit like a lettuce drainer thing - awesome action)

Syphoning would work fine, the tube doesn't care if it's going through the side of a bucket or not. I'll just put a bandaid over the hole in the big bowl and it can become my dry grist collecting bowl for the Marga. 
I'm picking up the 9" falsie on Saturday and my next couple of brews will be a one man systems war. B) 

Mash in the tun and boil in the urn (bagless - oh the humanity)

Drill a heap of big holes in the bottom of a handipail (fits snugly in a Crown Urn but a bit tall for a Birko), fit false bottom with elbow plugged of course, and BIAMP, hoisting the Malt Pipe with my new accurate double-double pulley (BribieEzyPullinator). 

The first two brews (still cubed) are a sort of Golden Fat Squire Creatures thingo so I might go a ghetto XXXX for the next couple. 

Next-darren will I'm sure be interested in the efficiency and volume results, which I'll publish here over the next couple.


----------



## MarkBastard

Bribie please post heaps of pics of the crown setup!


----------



## Bribie G

Mark, more than welcome to come up for a brew day.


----------



## RdeVjun

Bribie G said:


> The first two brews (still cubed) are a sort of Golden Fat Squire Creatures thingo


 :lol: 


> Next-darren will I'm sure be interested in the efficiency and volume results, which I'll publish here over the next couple.


I'll be watching, for sure. :icon_cheers:


----------



## ashley_leask

Bribie G said:


> Mark, more than welcome to come up for a brew day.



I have a 20 odd litre aluminium pot I was thinking of using to test this process out. It will slot nicely inside the Crown if I remove the handles, and I can lift using the same rig I use to lift the bag. Considering drilling a series of holes through the base for drainage, manual vorlaufing bag through the raised pot. If it works out well I'll invest in a pump for recirculation.

Thanks for testing out the idea and for all the pics & explanation.

Ash


----------



## argon

As much as i enjoy the ingenuity of all this to get a little less trub and a touch more efficiency, i'd expect that the extra work/mess will quickly get tiresome.

As someone who used to do BIAB with alot of faffing about to get the efficiency i was after (40L out of 50L pot) the simplicity of moving to a lauter tun system was fantastic. No lifting/draining/squeezing messiness. My efficiency is now greater... close to 85% pre boil, with great wort clarity in the kettle and only about 1L loss in the kettle.

I'd suggest (even as a trial to see how you feel about it) do a 2V with both urns, using the false bottom in one and the other as a HLT/Kettle. I think you'll be surprised at the simplicity, clarity and efficiency you'll get out of it. You can still do steps in the tun with a bit of stirring/pumping as before, so that flexibility is maintained.

Of course you can no longer do side by sides with the 2 urns running concurrently. But i guess i you still maintain that flexibility if you chose to go back and it anyway with the double BIAB.


----------



## Bribie G

Yup as I type, Urnold is back from Hospital and doing his first batch - I'm cranking out a simple bog standard BIAB Bulimba Gold Top 70s style for a forthcoming BBQ - however It will be great to have flexibility to do lautering with bigger beers, or to get better control when doing say a Helles or a Bo Pils where I really want to get as close to commercial practice as possible whilst still keeping a foot in the BIAB camp.


----------



## argon

Actually thinking about it... You could do double batches with the 2 urns set up in lauter mode. Easily fit 10-12kg in the 40L urn i'd think. Just do a post boil top up after boiling the max pre-boil volume you're comfortable with.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Nick JD said:


> Those who say that current technology has plateaued are destined to find their foot in their mouth.




But unfortunately what I mostly see is people wracking their brains to invent one of these... 




When half an hour with a search engine would do the job for them.

And quite frankly what i see a hell of a lot of are brewing versions of one of these...





I expect that the second version is more your style.


----------



## Nick JD

Thirsty Boy said:


> But unfortunately what I mostly see is people wracking their brains to invent one of these...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When half an hour with a search engine would do the job for them.



Unfortunately what I mostly see is people wracking their brains for new ways to kick the crutch out from people trying to make a process fit their ideals.

Sure, it's all been done before, but why not just sit back and rest easy with your supreme knowledge in your right hand and your KY Jelly in your left and let them succeed or fail on their own terms.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'm not interested in coming up with ideas to sound smart or to be the guy that makes the next big thing, I'm interested in how to make brewing easier for myself. So Wobbly's post was excellent.



I'm only teasing Mark - wobbly's post is hopefully a way for people to see a few different options that have already been explored.

But to be honest i think that Bribies OP method was about as simple and effective as its going to get, although I think its debatable whether keeping the bag in the mix actually reduces the amount of work or increases it vs just scooping the mash from the mash vessel to the lauter tun with a jug. The transfer itself might be faster and perhaps easier - but then again you have to have a bag, insert a bag, worry about a bag burning or tearing, clean a bag..... All OK in normal BIAB, but somewhat of a waste if you're using a multi vessel system anyway.

I imagine that Bribie will try both ways and find out for himself.


----------



## Bribie G

It took them 2500 years to reinvent the laptop 




Probably take another 2500 years for gen Y to stand up on the train and let pregnant ladies sit.


----------



## yardy

Bribie G said:


> *Probably take another 2500 years for gen Y to stand up on the train and let pregnant ladies sit.*



:lol:


----------



## Bribie G

Got the 12" false bottom replaced by the 9" I had originally ordered and paid for, so back in business.

BribieLautinator Mk II
Handi pail with a hole drilled, and a flow controller that I jammed together for around $8 with the aid of hot water and lube: a few bits of beer line inside the main hose, and clips and a little plastic tap from my local water distillation and turboyeast dealership up the street  

















Now we're cookin (without gas of course)

It's a Dortmunder Export, Planned to hit 21L at 1055 with 75% eff. Which should get me 20L into a cube and hopefully 500ml for a starter and only 500ml unrecoverable trub.
My trub management today is a triple header - 


lauter for clear wort into kettle to reduce coagulated trub after boil.
Hop sock (using some flowers as it happens - just investigating something else as well)
trub straining of what's left in the kettle

Ok lets get that sparge water heating to 80 degrees:






Finished mashing and a mashout, hoist the bag out of the urn, drain a while and dump grist into tun
That's a good deep grain bed this time






Add the runnings already collected, and start running off

Well, didn't need to recirculate much at all - came out clear almost immediately  

Come to Daddy you sweet little thang; :wub: 











Edit: fly sparged with about 12 L which took the runnings eventually down to 1010. Sweet. 

So boiling now, I'll let you know how it went - love this midnight brewing :icon_cheers:


----------



## stux

Still waiting


----------



## Bribie G

Just finished the boil, letting it settle for 15 mins then cube it. The break, using BrewBright was spectacular - instant breadcrumb soup


----------



## Bribie G

Final washup: 1054, but I bloody well did it again and ended up with 23L instead of 21L - I'll have to recalibrate my sight tube and cut back on the water a tad next time. But hardly any loss to trub at all - I used Hallertau aroma flowers and strained the first runnings and the left over wort back through a hop bed in a strainer into a stockpot which is in the fridge overnight and I'll use it in a starter. And I've got a full FWK of absolutely clear wort. 

So adjusting in BrewMate I actually got an efficiency of 80% which is very pleasing. My poor camera has run out of charge, I'll take a couple of piccies in the morning. 

Of to bed. :icon_cheers:


----------



## RdeVjun

Now you're talking Bribie, great stuff! B)

That sight tube isn't Chinese is it?


----------



## MarkBastard

When you wake up give us some more details please! Also why didn't you just use the pail as the 'bag'?


----------



## Bribie G

I'll take some pictures of the evidence shortly. The reason I don't mash in the lauter tun is for two reasons:

I use a looser mash than "normal" 3v brewing, so it can be pumped with the paint stirrer, and I'm sure it helps gelatinisation and freeing the contents of the crushed grain. It's easily ramped up through various rests as it's more liquid, as noted. 
I did a Hochkurz infusion mash last night = maltose rest, dex rest then mashout and it was easy as. 
Using just the pail I wouldn't be able to do that as the mash would be too thick and it would not be possible to effectively add enough water additions to ramp up. However I might try it with a simple isothermal infusion mash like the ghetto boys did at the weekend, and see how that goes. 

Using the urn as the mash tun, I actually had way more than the lauter tun could hold, and I was worried that I might have to race around for buckets to take the runoff. Then a neat thing happened, that I hadn't fully sussed out but on thinking about it, it makes sense:

I raised the bag, leaving maybe 15L of runoff in the urn. 
Tipped grain into the tun to form a grain bed
Progressively jugged the remaining wort from the urn into the tun till it reached the top
Started running into the collecting bowl
When the urn was empty I had still only collected about half the bowl which meant that I could now lift the urn down to take the place of the collecting bowl
Tip current contents of bowl into urn
Keep going till urn half full
By this time the first of the fly sparging was happening
Lift urn back up whilst still light enough to handle
Continue using collecting bowl

So I had heaps of room in vessels and shouldn't have worried. 
Sounds like a lot of dicking around, but not really, mostly just moving the runoff hose and doing a bit of jugging, and lift urn down then up later on.


With fly sparging that I've seen happening elsewhere, towards the end they are nervously checking gravities and pH etc in case of tannins.
However with the thinner mash and only 12L of sparge water, the Gods of Sparging arranged that the last runnings were spot on 1010 so for a 5k grain bill that's excellent, if I hit that every time it's a built-in tannin protection.





Anyway, getting the camera charged...... :icon_cheers:


----------



## MarkBastard

What I mean is having the pail sitting inside the urn and still using a 'thin' mash.

When you use a bag in the urn, the grain is sitting at the bottom of the urn during the mash anyway. So let's say the pail is inside the urn, yes it will have water underneath it and beside it however there'll still be plenty of water inside the pail fully in contact with the grains right?

Then you lift the pail instead of lifting the bag, and have it sitting above the urn so that the runoff from the pail goes directly into the urn. You can still sparge if needed as well.


----------



## Bribie G

Yes, that's the next experiment - the BribMeister h34r: - actually looking at the YouTube clip of Brad's false bottom I see he's made himself a pinched-off copper tube "blank" to screw into the cente of the FB to enable draining from above, rather than draining from below through the elbow. Neat, I'll do something like that.


----------



## Bribie G

So to recap, I got a Ross cube full of totally clear wort (21L) plus two litres of trub. I strained this through the hops from the hopbag into a stockpot and transferred to these bottles for settling. I'll try other filtering media next time, maybe just a folded up grain bag or something. 















The big one is 1.5L so it looks like I'll only be losing around 700ml of unrecoverable trub with the rest used for a starter (I'm doing a big stella Bock starter so that will be good)
Sure beats throwing away 3 Litres or a sixth of a corny with each brew :icon_cheers: 

So now I can crank back the water - probably cut a litre off, which should get me spot on for a cube plus 500ml for starter.


----------



## stux

Now since you have such a good sparging setup you can start Maxi-BIABing


----------



## RdeVjun

Aye stux and I might just start lautering in a tun!  

Yep Bribie, straining wort through whole hops in a sieve or colander en route to the fermenter certainly won't strain all the break and debris, but there's a few things at play- i) recovery of all but about 0.5- 1L of wort (often less) in only a few minutes draining, ii) trap enough break to make it worthwhile at the batch scale, iii) all with unmodified kitchen equipment. You may also have noted that there's quite a bit of break trapped in the hops cones' bracts, even before straining.

Great thread BTW! :icon_cheers:


----------



## stux

RdeVjun said:


> Aye stux and I might just start lautering in a tun!
> 
> Yep Bribie, straining wort through whole hops in a sieve or colander en route to the fermenter certainly won't strain all the break and debris, but there's a few things at play- i) recovery of all but about 0.5- 1L of wort (often less) in only a few minutes draining, ii) trap enough break to make it worthwhile at the batch scale, iii) all with unmodified kitchen equipment. You may also have noted that there's quite a bit of break trapped in the hops cones' bracts, even before straining.
> 
> Great thread BTW! :icon_cheers:



My current technique is to siphon all the wort into cubes... as I siphon top down, instead of from the bottom of the kettle I don't need to toss the first flush

I then dump the kettle contents into a jug, to measure my trub, 2-3L, which helps me with my predictions

I then dump it back in the kettle and dump it into a sieve back into the same jug... I'll generally sieve out 250-500ml of crap leaving another 1.5-2.5L or so, which I just pour into a 5L glass flagon.

That goes into a fridge to settle.

Later on, I can then decant the x L off the 500ml or so of cold/hot break material, and boil it for starters, or argonizing etc.

Last time I did this i ended up with 23L of wort, and 750ml total trub loss. Which gave me all the starter wort I needed to spin up my yeast samples

I also don't pour the cold-break from the cube into the fermenter, and I've been getting about 750ml to 1L of fermenter trub at the end, which is vastly improved since I stopped adding the cold-break to the fermenter!


----------



## Nick JD

I often strain the break through a doubled layer of swiss voile layered in a sieve, and then when the fine stuff settles I decant it off into a big old yoghurt container - and bung it in the freezer. 

When I need a starter it's into a pot for a quick boil then when it cools I pitch. 

Been known to thaw and chuck the thawed "starter" into the same/similar recipe too at the start of the boil.


----------



## going down a hill

I played around with trub removal on the weekend and didn't succeed very well, never again will I use coffee filter paper as a technique. 

If I were to no chill and then have the last 3 litres in a seperate bottle, could I pour that into the fermenter with the rest of the wort, minus the settled trub? As I type this I think I have figured this one out, I can.


----------



## [email protected]

Paper towel in a sieve works a treat for straining trub, comes out crystal clear and takes forever....

Rinsed in starsan prior to use, left overs get boiled again before use anyway but always good to be too careful.

I am getting so much better efficiency these days that i don't bother too much any more, does make good starters though, saves buying extract and like nick says its also good for using at a later date in a similar recipe, for example if you fall a bit short of gravity targets..


----------



## Nick JD

going down a hill said:


> I played around with trub removal on the weekend and didn't succeed very well, never again will I use coffee filter paper as a technique.
> 
> If I were to no chill and then have the last 3 litres in a seperate bottle, could I pour that into the fermenter with the rest of the wort, minus the settled trub? As I type this I think I have figured this one out, I can.



Reckon you could - long as the trub vessel was sealed and poured in piping hot.

My technique of pouring through a sieve introduces all manner of funk as it's chilled and the voile is manky - gotta be re-boiled.


----------



## going down a hill

No probs with sanitaion on my end. Knock on wood. I think the settling of trub in a small bottle suits me better than the stuffing around I did with filtering. I hate seeing wort that was made to be beer going any where else but the fermenter. 

Cheers blokes


----------



## stux

going down a hill said:


> I played around with trub removal on the weekend and didn't succeed very well, never again will I use coffee filter paper as a technique.



The coffee filter will clog very quickly. Even using paper towel will clog quickly.

This is why I just use a sieve which gets the large particles, and then the smaller ones can settle in the fridge



> If I were to no chill and then have the last 3 litres in a seperate bottle, could I pour that into the fermenter with the rest of the wort, minus the settled trub? As I type this I think I have figured this one out, I can.



Yes, BUT you *really* want to re-boil the last 3L if you futzed around with it a lot to make sure you don't add any nasty's to your fermenter. Of course, that makes it a perfect time to add any late additions!

...

Actually, this is precisely what I did the first time I saved my 'leftovers' in a 5L flaggon. I had not hit my evaporation rates and had far too much wort to cube. I ended up bottling the rest, repasturizing and used it in the ferementer with the rest of the cube. 

Was my best ever brew


----------



## lespaul

Im liking the semi braumister process that Mark suggested above.
any problems with using the plastic bucket? any benefits in a stainless steel bucket with mesh (i.e post 27 by Tim F) that would justify the cost?


----------



## Bribie G

The main advantage of the plastic bucket is the $11 or whatever they cost at Bunnings  Also at the systems wars day, the ghetto boys had a LT made from a handipail and about 50 holes just drilled in the bottom, slotting into a a cut -down handipail with a tap. They got a good grain bed going just with that and no stuck sparge.


----------



## nala

Mark^Bastard said:


> What I mean is having the pail sitting inside the urn and still using a 'thin' mash.
> 
> When you use a bag in the urn, the grain is sitting at the bottom of the urn during the mash anyway. So let's say the pail is inside the urn, yes it will have water underneath it and beside it however there'll still be plenty of water inside the pail fully in contact with the grains right?
> 
> Then you lift the pail instead of lifting the bag, and have it sitting above the urn so that the runoff from the pail goes directly into the urn. You can still sparge if needed as well.



Something like this Mark ?
I have the options of having a fluidised grain bed by lowering the bucket to the liquid level in the urn or a continuous
sparge by raising the bucket and adjusting the sparge rate to maintain liquid/wort just covering the grain bed.
I raise the bucket to whichever level I desire.
I have a series of false bottoms and strainers to get the wort as clear as possible, the evacuation of the wort is done by merely raising the bucket.
I mash with 33 lires of water and no additional sparge, this can be changed to say 25 litres and then add sparge water when the bucket is raised.
Some more work to be done on various options.


----------



## Bribie G

Al, just to refresh the memory, will your copper sparging ring fit the bucket or is that just for use with your fabric bag system?


----------



## nala

Bribie G said:


> Al, just to refresh the memory, will your copper sparging ring fit the bucket or is that just for use with your fabric bag system?



The sparge ring I made for the bag version is 33cms diameter and does not fit the bucket, I had a small piece of copper left over and made a smaller version to fit the bucket, not very pretty, but I will get some more copper when I am happy with the prototype.
The false bottom I am using is a sieve from Woolworths, I cut the handles off and it fits snugly around the bucket, below this I have a circle of fly mesh and some coarsely woven material also in a circle, I have drilled 12mm diameter holes
around the base of the bucket for drainage, I either suspend the bucket on my 3 legged trivet holder or suspend it by the rope from the pulley,infinitely variable.


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## MarkBastard

Yeah mate I saw your post before, very good work and it is similar to what I had in mind.

I would like to start off more simply though and fully intend to. I want to get a pail that can fit fully inside my crown urn. I have a concealed element and I don't put any shields over the element either.

The pail will have a lot of holes drilled into the bottom, and will additionally be covered with a mesh screen on the inside made from a splatter guard and sealed around the edges with some silicone tubing that's been cut into lengthways.

The process will be:
-Fill urn with strike water at full volume.
-Put pail into urn
-Add grain to pail and mash around
-Put the originally lid on the pail just for a bit of extra thermal insulation
-Put urn lid on and lag as per normal.
-After mash open up urn and lift the pail to about half way up the urn and secure it at this level somehow until it drains a fair bit of wort
-Then lift it up further so that the lower part of the pail is just above the surface level of the wort in the urn
-Turn urn on to ramp up to boiling while the pail is still draining.
-Because I'm not squeezing a bag, if the grain in the wort is retaining too much moisture and the preboil volume is less than expected I'll probably do just enough of a sparge to ensure that I get the desired pre-boil volume. Probably just use a kettle to do this.
-Then boil as per normal.

So affectively in the above process all I've done is replace the bag with a pail due to it being rigid and in theory easier to handle and clearer draining wort.

If that works out I'm going to do the same but introduce a pump as you have. I would like to modify the lid of the pail so that it has some sort of spraying device so the wort being bumped back into the pail doesn't upset the grain bed. I figure this would be a good way to do it because the lid would be on the pail and the whole thing would be self contained and would sit by itself happily enough. So you attach a tube to the lid of the pail basically.

The pump will be used simply to recirculate the mash for clarity and possible efficiency reasons. I'll be noting how much of a difference it makes for efficiency and clarity when I do this, compared to the more simple way, to make a decision whether or not it's worth doing.


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## MarkBastard

Also I may test mash outs in both scenarios too.

In scenario one you could hoist the pail and then ramp up to mash out temps, then dunk it back down again and stir it before finally hoisting and doing the final drain.

With the pump you can just recirculate to mash out temps while the pail is sort of half-raised.


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## nala

Mark^Bastard said:


> Also I may test mash outs in both scenarios too.
> 
> In scenario one you could hoist the pail and then ramp up to mash out temps, then dunk it back down again and stir it before finally hoisting and doing the final drain.
> 
> With the pump you can just recirculate to mash out temps while the pail is sort of half-raised.



I am convinced that the bucket method will prove to be a real winner, offering so many variables coupled with the pump and STC 1000 I find step mashing and temperature control very good.
If interest on this method continues I will post some pictures of the components that I have made, I try where possible to use utility or proprietory items and modify them to suit.
Hoping that Michael doesn't feel that I am gatecrashing his method.


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## the_new_darren

I still don't see the reason to go to all the "trouble" to re-invent something that has been around forever.

Fill urn with liquor/grain at desired L/G ratio/ Mash, controlling temps with element.

Drain urn into bucket, sparge if you wish with kettle water (yes kitchen kettle)

Empty spent grain from urn. Return sweet wort to urn. Boil

How friggin simple can it be.

Only uses one pot!! (the urn and a plastic bucket) and a piece of stainless mesh cut to fit above the element.

cheers

the_new_darren


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## MarkBastard

darren, I know you're old so it's probably a waste of time trying to teach you anything, however surely you understand by now that no one has any respect for you or your opinions?


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## the_new_darren

#%^k off bastard

with of course the greatest respect


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## 1975sandman

I would have to say that mark's idea is a lot more simpler than yours, darren


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## stux

The circular development path is fun 

Was't BIAB originally developed after playing with bucket-in-a-bucket brewing?


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## MarkBastard

Stux said:


> The circular development path is fun
> 
> Was't BIAB originally developed after playing with bucket-in-a-bucket brewing?



I believe it was, someone pointed that out not long ago.

I love the concept of BIAB however I absolutely can not stand the actual bag part of it. It's just messy, and without a sky hook is really annoying. I figure a rigid grain holder should be easier to hoist and hold than a bag is.


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## felten

the_new_darren said:


> I still don't see the reason to go to all the "trouble" to re-invent something that has been around forever.
> Fill urn with liquor/grain at desired L/G ratio/ Mash, controlling temps with element.
> Drain urn into bucket, sparge if you wish with kettle water (yes kitchen kettle)
> Empty spent grain from urn. Return sweet wort to urn. Boil
> How friggin simple can it be.
> Only uses one pot!! (the urn and a plastic bucket) and a piece of stainless mesh cut to fit above the element.


Brilliant idea, all you need now is to replace the bucket with some kind of a bag and you might be on to something.


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## the_new_darren

lazy brew said:


> I would have to say that mark's idea is a lot more simpler than yours, darren




Simpler...? Certainly more expensive to make and then one needs to "remove" all the particulate material from the wort.


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## the_new_darren

felten said:


> Brilliant idea, all you need now is to replace the bucket with some kind of a bag and you might be on to something.




What is the bag for? You will have crystal clear wort in the bucket!!! 

EDIT: Circular argument where it started:

Perhaps you meant one of these?


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## beerdrinkingbob

Great work Bribie, always fun to follow your threads. Looking at your set up the only thing that worries me is the amount of vessels you need to clean, that has to be the worst part of brewing. 

I would be interested to find out what full volume BIAB with bucket in the urn with recirculation fermenter efficiency comes out though, keeps more to traditional line of the idea.

Cheers

BDB


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## the_new_darren

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Great work Bribie, always fun to follow your threads. Looking at your set up the only thing that worries me is the amount of vessels you need to clean, that has to be the worst part of brewing.
> 
> I would be interested to find out what full volume BIAB with bucket in the urn with recirculation fermenter efficiency comes out though, keeps more to traditional line of the idea.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> BDB




I am also wondering why Briber crossed the line of simplicity of BIAB to what is a far more complicated (requiring more vessels for clean-up) without a superior product. In fact Mark_the_bastard and Briber have made a very simple process more complicated.

cheers

the_new_darren


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## manticle

Who cares? Maybe he had fun doing it?

Buying beer would be much simpler than messing around with my 50 L esky with hand cut copper pipe manifold, 40 L aluminium pot and 50 L angle ground, legally acquired keggle but **** it. I have fun. It's a great part of most weekends that I look forward to.

So should you mate. Let other people have theirs.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

the_new_darren said:


> I am also wondering why Briber crossed the line of simplicity of BIAB to what is a far more complicated (requiring more vessels for clean-up) without a superior product. In fact Mark_the_bastard and Briber have made a very simple process more complicated.
> 
> cheers
> 
> the_new_darren



My momma always told me "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". I'm sure she'd feel the same way for typing on a forum as well.

So what if they are? My 2 pot method is more labour intensive. But by sharing the knowledge, why not allow everyone to help each other.

That's the point of these forums, isn't it? Knowledge accumulation and dissemination. Sometimes you need some stuff you find irrelevant, in order to acquire something that is.

Goomba


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## MarkBastard

Don't respond to the retard guys. This is a good thread and some old impotent codger from SA shouldn't ruin that.


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## RdeVjun

Mark^Bastard said:


> Don't respond to the retard guys. This is a good thread and some old impotent codger from SA shouldn't ruin that.


Hear hear M^B this thread is a cracker. Go one better though- its an excellent opportunity to apply some handy troll de-oxygenator across the boards: Click on My Controls, lower LHS has "Manage Ignored Users", then the lower section of that has "Add a new user to your list", enter (for example) "the_new_darren" or "RdeVjun" and click Update Ignored Users. Happy days! B)


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## Fat Bastard

the_new_darren said:


> I still don't see the reason to go to all the "trouble" to re-invent something that has been around forever.
> 
> Fill urn with liquor/grain at desired L/G ratio/ Mash, controlling temps with element.
> 
> Drain urn into bucket, sparge if you wish with kettle water (yes kitchen kettle)
> 
> Empty spent grain from urn. Return sweet wort to urn. Boil
> 
> How friggin simple can it be.
> 
> Only uses one pot!! (the urn and a plastic bucket) and a piece of stainless mesh cut to fit above the element.
> 
> cheers
> 
> the_new_darren



I'm going to try something similar for my 2nd BIAB AG this weekend. I have a rather hefty perf stainless steel false bottom in my electric kettle, but it's hexagonal because I couldn't nick a piece big enough from the scrap bin. I'll still need the bag, but I'm hoping I can just leave the bag in place while I drain the sweet wort, then sparge through with some reserved water, tie up the bag, then place something heavy on top. I haven't got the headspace to hoist the bag under the range hood, and don't want to slide it across the bench to lift it, because I'll get killed by the missus. Last time I had to dig out 6.5 kilos of wet grain with a slotted spoon and do a series of mini sparge/squeezes in some hastily cut swiss voille! It mustve worked ok, because I got 83% efficiency!


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## Bribie G

RdeVjun said:


> Hear hear M^B this thread is a cracker. Go one better though- its an excellent opportunity to apply some handy troll de-oxygenator across the boards: Click on My Controls, lower LHS has "Manage Ignored Users", then the lower section of that has "Add a new user to your list", enter (for example) "the_new_darren" or "RdeVjun" and click Update Ignored Users. Happy days! B)



tut tut how could I ever ignore you Ralph



Fat Bastard said:


> I'm going to try something similar for my 2nd BIAB AG this weekend. I have a rather hefty perf stainless steel false bottom in my electric kettle, but it's hexagonal because I couldn't nick a piece big enough from the scrap bin. I'll still need the bag, but I'm hoping I can just leave the bag in place while I drain the sweet wort, then sparge through with some reserved water, tie up the bag, then place something heavy on top. I haven't got the headspace to hoist the bag under the range hood, and don't want to slide it across the bench to lift it, because I'll get killed by the missus. Last time I had to dig out 6.5 kilos of wet grain with a slotted spoon and do a series of mini sparge/squeezes in some hastily cut swiss voille! It mustve worked ok, because I got 83% efficiency!



What diameter is your electric kettle and how much headspace do you have?

A weight/press system is very practical, works for me,






and could be adapted to a kettle but it depends on diameter and headspace, and how much weight the false bottom could take without damage.


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## Fat Bastard

Bribie G said:


> What diameter is your electric kettle and how much headspace do you have?
> 
> A weight/press system is very practical, works for me,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and could be adapted to a kettle but it depends on diameter and headspace, and how much weight the false bottom could take without damage.



The Kettle is 355mm diameter and I have about a foot of headspace on the stove. It'll be light enough to move the whole thing over to the bench when it's drained of wort, so once that's done the headspace is unlimited (well, up to the ceiling anyway). The false bottom is a piece of 1.5mm perf S/S plate supported on 8 1/2" x 3" rods. It's as solid as hell. I was intending to sit a 10 litre bucket full of water on top of the bag while I sort my hops out, remove the bag, move the kettle back under the rangehood, pour the wort back in and commence the boil as normal. Sounds like a bit of a stuff around, but it's going to be easier than what I did last time!


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## beerdrinkingbob

the_new_darren said:


> I am also wondering why Briber crossed the line of simplicity of BIAB to what is a far more complicated (requiring more vessels for clean-up) without a superior product. In fact Mark_the_bastard and Briber have made a very simple process more complicated.
> 
> cheers
> 
> the_new_darren



Not sure what angle your working there Darren but don't drag me into it....

Bribie how much efficiency do you think you would drop by using the malt pipe/ bucket instead of the trusty bag in the mash, the method would make rinsing/sparging really easy, plus step mashing etc.


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## Thirsty Boy

The thing to remember with your bucket in urn solutions - is that heat will not magically transfer into the bucket. It doesn't do it even with a bag, so it certainly wont with a solid border between the heat source and the grains.

So you'll need to get it in there. I'm not sure that just stirring will actaully be enough... It might, but i just get a gut feel that it wont be. Recirculation absolutely will, but comes with its own issues.

I hate to bring it up again... But this stuff has mostly been done before. I say this not to discourage you from looking for alternate solutions to your brewing dilemmas, but just so that you know there are solutions already in place. You guys are thinking about making mash/lauter tuns.... but looking at it like BIAB brewers. Thats possibly going to mean you dream uo some new things that work, but it also means that you do tend to ignore a body of very servicable pre-existing types of system that are very nearly identical to what you propose to build. You can of course discover the issues with your type of system and develop solutions - all from first principles on your own, if you like. but you dont have to.

From what i see, i think you guys would benefit from having a look at how some jacketed mashing systems work, and perhaps some of the stock re-circulating systems too. Your issues will occur when you try to combine temperature control via the elements... with avoiding manual intervention. Leave the element off - no issues. Have it on but be willing to stand there and stir/pump/hoist/dump whatever - no issues. Want the element on, but Not want to handle the heat distribution and measurement manually??? - then you'll need to start implementing "solutions"

Bribie's system on the other hand... I just cant see any controversy in it. Its a multi vessel system with mash/kettle, a Lauter tun and a break tank (bucket) Its as standard as its possible to get. The vast majority of pro-brewers i know, if asked to build a versatile, 20ish litre brewery without breaking the bank, would build something that was nearly exactly the same.


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## MarkBastard

Thirsty Boy said:


> The thing to remember with your bucket in urn solutions - is that heat will not magically transfer into the bucket. It doesn't do it even with a bag, so it certainly wont with a solid border between the heat source and the grains.
> 
> So you'll need to get it in there. I'm not sure that just stirring will actaully be enough... It might, but i just get a gut feel that it wont be. Recirculation absolutely will, but comes with its own issues.



Not sure if you were talking about the idea I was talking about, but I don't see how this is an issue with it? You heat up your strike water, put the bucket in, and then put the grain in. Just like you'd do with a bag. I was never proposing step mashes or anything like that.


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## Bribie G

Step mashing, ve haf vays  





What you say is spot on, TB. The whole concept came to me when I was standing in Murray's brewery which is a scaled up version of the BribieLautinator system, although at that time they didn't suspect a thing  
Yes to make the ghetto malt tube system work I'd really need a pump and a system similar to Nala's recently posted work of art. I'm really only playing around with it and at the end of the day all I stand to lose is a ten dollar Handypail with lots of holes drilled in the bottom. 

FB, talking about HandyPails, one of those would hold 20k if you could manage it ok, and would give a good squeeze, as well as easily fitting into that pot

BDB - I'd expect the malt pipe idea to give the same efficiency as a straight BIAB, but if I sparged a bit as well on hoisting the pipe, I'd get maybe a couple of extra points. So far my effic. has gone up from 70-75 to about 80 using the lauter tun, I've got a refractometer now so I can monitor this quite closely nowadays.


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## Tim F

FWIW my system is essentially the bucket in bucket design plus the cheap brown pump to recirc and works pretty well, I just use a heat exchanges instead of a direct element . I think bucket in urn will work well too, and you could do steps with it in a pinch, you just lift out the bucket, heat wort in urn to the next strike temp, put the bucket back (slowly) and stir. The benefit I can see compared to a biab bag is lifting the bucket is easier / less messy and you get a proper grain bed and can vorlauf.


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## Bribie G

And with my new pulley system, withdrawing the bucket can be precisely controlled. 
Tim where did you get your pump from and $$$? 
Do you have a link or a photo?


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## Tim F

i'll have to wait till i'm home tonight to paste the link but mine was about $50 shipped from solarshop.co.uk (i think). You can get them for 35 on ebay with some debate about whether they are exactly the same and food safe. I've seen an even better one for $77 on ebay recently, i started a thread about it and the brown ones if you can find threads by me? Just cant find it on my phone now.


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## Bribie G

Thanks Tim, tracked that one down. What voltage one did you get and how do you power yours?

I take it this is the model:


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## MarkBastard

Bribie, I just bought one of these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ME:L:OC:AU:1123

About $40 inc postage (Australian).

Not sure if it's the same or not, I'm going to use it to flood my font if it doesn't seem food grade or whatever.


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## Tim F

Yep that's the one, i think mine said 9-12 volt and i'm running it off an old cordless drill power pack that had the right specs. Think some people are using phone chargers too.


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## nala

Tim F said:


> FWIW my system is essentially the bucket in bucket design plus the cheap brown pump to recirc and works pretty well, I just use a heat exchanges instead of a direct element . I think bucket in urn will work well too, and you could do steps with it in a pinch, you just lift out the bucket, heat wort in urn to the next strike temp, put the bucket back (slowly) and stir. The benefit I can see compared to a biab bag is lifting the bucket is easier / less messy and you get a proper grain bed and can vorlauf.



I don't have to lift the bucket !
Pumping the wort into the top of the bucket via the SP20/20 mini pump,recirculates the wort, the temperature of the wort I control by an STC1000.
This system is not fully automatic because after each step I have to reset the STC1000 to the next step temperature,not a problem only takes seconds. I have the temperature sensor dangling in the wort that is in the Crown urn, it could be in the bucket, I am trying different things, but everything works OK as I see it.


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## nala

Bribie G said:


> Thanks Tim, tracked that one down. What voltage one did you get and how do you power yours?
> 
> I take it this is the model:
> 
> View attachment 49090



That is the same as mine : SP20/20, 12 volt - 6 litres/minute @ 3 Metre head. Temperature 120oC rating.

www.solarprojects.co.uk.


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## Tim F

nala I tried to do steps without lifting the pot but found there was a fair lag time getting the actual grain up to desired mash temp - you either run your returning wort hotter than target temp and risk overshooting or you return at target temp and take longer to equalise. But maybe using an element directly like you are instead of my HEX would make this easier! Be interesting to compare both ways. I'm adding an element to the bottom of my mash tun/kettle soon anyway...


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## stux

Tim F said:


> nala I tried to do steps without lifting the pot but found there was a fair lag time getting the actual grain up to desired mash temp - you either run your returning wort hotter than target temp and risk overshooting or you return at target temp and take longer to equalise. But maybe using an element directly like you are instead of my HEX would make this easier! Be interesting to compare both ways. I'm adding an element to the bottom of my mash tun/kettle soon anyway...



From my readings a PID controller would take care of this.

Basically it'd run the return flat out, and then lower the temperature to cruise to the final point.

Much like when you're coming up to a red light... you slow down, then stop, rather than slamming on the breaks when you get to the light


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## Thirsty Boy

Mark^Bastard said:


> Not sure if you were talking about the idea I was talking about, but I don't see how this is an issue with it? You heat up your strike water, put the bucket in, and then put the grain in. Just like you'd do with a bag. I was never proposing step mashes or anything like that.



Exactly as I said then - if you aren't planning on turning the element on and trying to add heat, no issue at all.


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## Bribie G

Ok guys, time for yappin is over, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do cause if a man don't do what a man's supposed to do then a man don't deserve to be called a man nohow (_John Wayne 1952_)


See new thread as this one's wandered in that direction anyhows. Sorry I meant anyway


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## tavas

Bribie

I may have missed it in the preceeding pages, but which efficiency are you measuring? Mash or brewhouse?


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