# Force Carbonating Kegs V's Natural Carbonation.



## gunbrew (1/7/09)

Hi All, 
Had been bottling my brews.
Now run a keg system, am on the 4th 23 litre keg.
Kegs 1 to 3, each was force carbonated and I did have a problem with over carbonation and under carbonation at the start of each keg.
4th keg I decided to carbonate naturally as to avoid these carbonation issues.
Added 180g of dextrose and left for 7 days, I'm guessing not long enough.(3rd keg ran out and it became a priority to get the 4th keg running)
Beer was reading at 1010 before kegging and now that I am drinking it it reads at 1018.
Beer tends to be mostly foam for the 1st 2 glasses then comes out nice.
Is this because I did not allow it to finish secondary fermentation in the keg?
Anyone have any advice on keg carbonation for me?
Thanks.


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## Supra-Jim (1/7/09)

Before you get flamed, check out the articles section at the top of the page. There are some handy doc's on balancing draught systems there. Sounds like you just need a little tweaking on your system to get it right.

Cheers SJ


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## gava (1/7/09)

Im a new comer to kegs to.. I tried the force carb *shake the crap out of it* style and it was hit and miss... 

Since I dont drink during the week (much) I just connect my kegs up and let them carb at my serving temp (around 74kpa) for a week... hit your mark everytime.. unless you want different serving pressures.. then I think you have to get other gear..


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## Polar Beer (1/7/09)

As Supra mentioned, there is plenty of advice on this topic around the forum. Could be any number of reasons for your issue. 

But FWIW, I started by force carbing, but for what ever reason I found it wasn't reliable. These days I just let the keg sit at serving pressure for a week. Perfect every time.


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## jonocarroll (1/7/09)

Polar Beer said:


> But FWIW, I started by force carbing, but for what ever reason I found it wasn't reliable. These days I just let the keg sit at serving pressure for a week. Perfect every time.


(not-yet-kegging disclaimer... mere weeks to go)

Isn't that still force carbing? I think you mean to say that you used to accelerate the force carbing, but now just patiently force carb.

On a slightly different topic not worthy of its own thread - anyone know how many 19L volumes you get on average per kg of CO2?


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## Adamt (1/7/09)

1kg CO2 takes up 556L of space (STP, ideal gas).

I think "volumes CO2" are based on STP conditions.


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## Bribie G (1/7/09)

As a kegging virgin, if you decide you are going to always sugar prime the kegs, do any members here cut a bit off the bottom of the spear / post thingo to make allowances for a layer of sediment, or is this unnecessary? I notice that the post goes down into a little dimple at the bottom of the keg and wonder if this would give too many pulls of cloudy beer if carbing naturally?


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## therook (1/7/09)

BribieG said:


> As a kegging virgin, if you decide you are going to always sugar prime the kegs, do any members here cut a bit off the bottom of the spear / post thingo to make allowances for a layer of sediment, or is this unnecessary? I notice that the post goes down into a little dimple at the bottom of the keg and wonder if this would give too many pulls of cloudy beer if carbing naturally?



Some people do cut the bottom of the inlet. I naturally carbed my last keg of Mild and after the first 2 pots the beer was clear.

Rook


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## jonocarroll (1/7/09)

Adamt said:


> 1kg CO2 takes up 556L of space (STP, ideal gas).
> 
> I think "volumes CO2" are based on STP conditions.


Hmmm... interesting. That would imply 12 x 19L x 2.4 volumes per kg of gas... perhaps I've missed something. Just trying to figure out how big a cylinder I should get.



BribieG said:


> As a kegging virgin, if you decide you are going to always sugar prime the kegs, do any members here cut a bit off the bottom of the spear / post thingo to make allowances for a layer of sediment, or is this unnecessary? I notice that the post goes down into a little dimple at the bottom of the keg and wonder if this would give too many pulls of cloudy beer if carbing naturally?


My understanding is that bending the dip tube is much more reversible than cutting it.


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## Bribie G (1/7/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> ........................
> My understanding is that bending the dip tube is much more reversible than cutting it.



Spoken like a Queenslander "more than one way to skin a cat " :lol:


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## jonocarroll (1/7/09)

BribieG said:


> Spoken like a Queenslander "more than one way to skin a cat " :lol:


Oi! ... I might take offense to that. <_<


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## buttersd70 (1/7/09)

BribieG said:


> As a kegging virgin, if you decide you are going to always sugar prime the kegs, do any members here cut a bit off the bottom of the spear / post thingo to make allowances for a layer of sediment, or is this unnecessary? I notice that the post goes down into a little dimple at the bottom of the keg and wonder if this would give too many pulls of cloudy beer if carbing naturally?






QuantumBrewer said:


> Hmmm... interesting. That would imply 12 x 19L x 2.4 volumes per kg of gas... perhaps I've missed something. Just trying to figure out how big a cylinder I should get.
> 
> 
> My understanding is that _bending the dip tube is much more reversible than cutting it_.



Correct-a-mundo. Aaaay.

Mine are all bent (a bit like me, really), to give me the option to naturally prime (or to keg before it's crystal, and let it settle out in the keg). But it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other....either you pour the crap out in the first couple of glasses, or you leave it to settle in the bottom. The only real difference is preferences.


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## mattbrewer (1/7/09)

Not really sure what you are asking gunbrew but here is my 2c worth.

A week naturally carbonating should nearly be enough to get enough C2 going. When I'm ready to drink I let all the pressure out of the keg. You might have to do it twice about an hour apart. Use the gas cylinder only to pour the beer out. That way you will have the correct pressure straight away.

For a nicely gased beer I use about 4g of dextrose/litre. For a British ale I use 2g/L. So the 8g/L you are using may be part of your problem.

Matt


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## matt white (1/7/09)

Put your cold fermented "beer" into a keg, connect to gas and turn reg up to 60psi and shake for 75 seconds. After an hour or two, purge to serving pressure and enjoy the nectar. Never not worked for me.

Even gone grain to brain in 4 days using this method.


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## Screwtop (1/7/09)

Sorry to be a PITA again boys but this has all been covered long ago, searching is a good way to learn. 

In any case a quickie: Naturally condition by 1. kegging early (spunding) or 2. using Speise or 3. using some sugar either maltose or sucrose. Then leave at ambient temp with an adjustable pressure relief valve on the gas post set at carbonation pressure with a bleed off tube to a bottle of water so that you can observe Co2 gas escaping. Once no gas is observed escaping via the bleed off, then theoretically secondary/tertiary fermentation in the keg should be finished and the pressure in the keg should be at the set or carbonation pressure on the relief valve. Pop it into the fridge and serve when at serving temp. Note. Carbonation needs to be higher at ambient than you want at serving temp. This takes a bit of practice and depends on ambient temps and your serving temp. 

Screwy


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## buttersd70 (1/7/09)

As screwtop said. I've done both spunding and priming (haven't used spiese myself, but is similar in theory). If a spunding valve is used, it's easy....you've seen the carb charts for co2 at serving pressure....basically, there are extended versions of this that show the pressure required in the headspace at fermentation temp. When this is reached, and tertiarry is complete, it is then chilled, the beer absorbs the excess co2 in the headspace, and the pressure drops as the saturation increases...so that what you end up with is beer at serving temp, with a keg pressurised to dispensing pressure. Then the gas is hooked up.

With a spunding valve, it's easy peasy. Without, it's a bit hit and miss, but not _that _hard to do (which is one of the reasons why I played russian roulette and didn't have a non return valve on my reg for so long. So I could use it, with the gas off, to check the pressure in the headspace, and manually purge it. FYI, _bad _choice, one blonde moment leads to a lot of tears). 

As far as priming is concerned, literature points to 1/2 the amount of priming sugar, for the same saturation, as bottles require. An explaination for this hasn't (afaik) been satisfactoraly given (and yes, there have been threads dedicated to it...hypothesis is that it's likely due to the different ratio of headspace to liquid)....however, results from using that priming rate (and then checking temp/pressure), bear it out. (eg....beersmiths priming calc in recipe view has the option of bottle vs keg priming, and keg priming is 1/2 weight).

Lots and lots and lots of threads on this topic.....


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## The Big Burper (3/7/09)

gunbrew said:


> Hi All,
> Had been bottling my brews.
> Now run a keg system, am on the 4th 23 litre keg.
> Kegs 1 to 3, each was force carbonated and I did have a problem with over carbonation and under carbonation at the start of each keg.
> ...




Thank you Mr Cooper. h34r: 
*"Natural Conditioning* 


Clean and sanitise the keg thoroughly.
Prime with sugar at the rate of 4g per litre.
Rack via a piece of sanitised, flexible tubing so that the beer runs to the bottom of the keg. Leave 5 10 cm of headspace at the top.
Seal the keg then invert and give it a shake to mix the sugar and check that the seal is good.
Store at 18C or above for a week, then allow the beer to condition for at least two weeks.
Refrigerate for a day or two, momentarily release the keg pressure, then connect the gas at required pouring pressure 35 100 kPa, depending on your system."


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