# The "no Chiller" Method



## MAH

OK this isn't a thread about bumping off one of AHB's members and the man behind the Mash Paddle compeition, it's about extract and AG brewing and not using an immersion chiller or counter flow chiller post boil.

This method has been raised by a number of people recently and they have reported good results. I'm guessing that a large number of people have used a variation of this approach in their early days of brewing. When I first started AG, It was in a 20 litre pot on top of the stove and I didn't have a chiller, so I just put the lid on the pot and left in the laundry sink over night. This is basically the same approach as the no chiller method and I did this for over a year with no noticeable ill effects. More recently I made a Pilsner and the pick-up tube from the boiler got clogged and I could run the wort through my CFC, so I just siphoned into a sanitised jerry can. the jerry can then went into the fridge to bring it down to pitching temp. Again the beer worked out fine.

Maybe we can start identifying some of the pros and cons of this approach. I think it would also be helpful if Kai gave a full explanation of paturisation and what at the critical points to consider like fill temp etc.

From my own experience, 25-30 litres of hot wort in a jerry can is not that easy to chill in a fridge, particularly if you are trying to get it down to lager pitching temps. From my one experience of this, it took around 48 hours in the fridge. This had no percetable effect on the final product, it just took a long time.

I'm sure others will identify some health and safety issues around handling large quantities of near boiling wort.

So lets have a crack at properly understanding the ups and downs of chiller versus no chiller.

Cheers
MAH


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## Guest Lurker

Nothing practical to contribute but I'm interested in this. One aspect I am looking at is to reduce the lag time for ferments. This technique eliminates the potential exposure to nasties during the chilling process, and allows you to have a starter at peak activity and choose the exact best moment before opening the container and exposing it.

Does anyone fill the jerry with CO2 to avoid oxygen pickup in the hot transfer?
Has anyone detected a plasticy taste from putting hot wort ina jerrycan?


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## warrenlw63

Or any undue stress on their refrigerators due to such a large, hot radiating mass sitting inside it? :unsure: 

$50 coil of copper won't break the bank.  

Warren -


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## Jazzafish

At the moment I use an immersion chiller. I pump tap water through it and collect the returning hot water to clean at the end of the brew day. So I guess it saves water? The disadvantage is that this method can only lower the worts temperature down to the mid 20's in summer. So I go into a second stage where I pump ice cold water through the chiller. Just have a pond pump in a bucket filled with water and frozen water bottles. It does the trick and I can pitch yeast within an hour of the end of boil.

Before the chiller, I used an ice bath like mentioned in the palmer book. I simply put the hot pot filled with wort into the laundry sink and filled with ice water. When the water warmed up I'd replace it. Took a long time. Wasted alot of water.

Have used a fridge to cool it too... took even longer!

None of these methods produced a foul beer. But I want my beer to be ready as fast as possible, do I'm all for chillers.


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## Guest Lurker

warrenlw63 said:


> Or any undue stress on their refrigerators due to such a large, hot radiating mass sitting inside it? :unsure:
> 
> $50 coil of copper won't break the bank.
> 
> Warren -
> [post="114795"][/post]​



I wasnt planning to put it in the fridge. Just leave it standing in the back yard next to the unwashed brewing gear for a few days.

$50 worth of copper wont beak the bank. A fruit fly popping in and adding a lactic culture while using it might break the beer though.


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## Jazzafish

> Or any undue stress on their refrigerators due to such a large, hot radiating mass sitting inside it?



The fridge did work hard for some time to chill the wort in my experience.



> $50 coil of copper won't break the bank.



Totally agree


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## Borret

I have no experience with this method but in considering it I have a few concerns. 
The first is post boil HSA during the transfer of liquids. I now it's minimal but still there. GL's CO2 blanket would help this though.
The other question I raise comes only from Wild Brews which I am reading at present. It is with regards the slow chilling in coolships so I am unsure if the surface area has any bearing on it. I don't don't think so. 
_"This method of long slow cooling also will lead to the formation of significant amounts of dimethyl sulphate, which will be scrubbed during the lengthy fermentation process." _
Now as we are not talking about fermenting our beers for three years with things that will eat everything put in their way, I imagine this is worth considering. Can anyone comment here?
Other than that the idea of cleaning and sanitising yet another container is a drawback too.
A positive I surpose is being able to take off a litre or so of the wort in a small vessel and rapid chill it and use it for the yeast starter while the rest of the brew cools over a day or so. It would mean the whole brew would have a constant profile rather than DME wort or one from a previous brew being use for the starter

The method does have appeal though, but as with anything new(ish) I am wary..

Brent


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## warrenlw63

Guest Lurker said:


> A fruit fly popping in and adding a lactic culture while using it might break the beer though.
> [post="114797"][/post]​



Brewers by nature are an inventive lot... Not really hard to fashion a lid that fits the boiler when chilling.  

Warren -


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## Uncle Fester

Just guessing, but I would assume that 15 minutes after flameout, the wort would still be in the high 80's for temperature. I doubt many bad beasties can survive at that temp. Once placed into a Jerry, I would suspect that the headspace would quickly rise to the same temperature, fairly effectively sanitising it. (I'm not suggesting that the Jerry not be sanitised seperately, just that anything that was introduced within the headspace would be killed)

The cooling wort would create a very effective vacuum seal, and I would not see any problem if the wort was left for a reasonable amount of time.

After all, what is the shelf life of an ESB fresh wort? (not for freshness, but the effective use-by date)

If it appears that the result doesnt seem to be affected by the cold break, then it would seem to be a reasonably risk free process?


M


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## MAH

Borret said:


> A positive I surpose is being able to take off a litre or so of the wort in a small vessel and rapid chill it and use it for the yeast starter while the rest of the brew cools over a day or so. It would mean the whole brew would have a constant profile rather than DME wort or one from a previous brew being use for the starter
> [post="114799"][/post]​



Hi Borret

Some brewers, including myself, already use a variation of this method. My current practice is to chill the beer using a CFC, but often this only gets the wort down to mid to low 20's, not really cold enough for ales and definitely not cold enough for lagers. So I place the fermentor in the fridge overnight, usually for about 12 hours. I will already have a starter, but I pour off the liquid (made with cheap Bi-Lo lager goo) and add 1 to 1.5 litres of the wort to the yeast left behind in the bottom. At mid to low 20's this really fires up over the 12 hours wait for the rest of the wort to cool in the fridge. Next morning I pitch the yeast and in no time at all the whole batch is happily fermenting away. I've found that this works very well with lagers (I increase the volume to 2 to 2.5 litres).

Cheers
MAH


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## warrenlw63

MAH said:


> Some brewers, including myself, already use a variation of this method. My current practice is to chill the beer using a CFC, but often this only gets the wort down to mid to low 20's
> [post="114804"][/post]​



LOL! :lol: Left yourself open there MAH. Could be in danger of being hijacked into a CFC vs. Immersion chiller thread now. :blink: 

Note: Pond pump and ice slurry can get worts to pitching temps (and lower) within 30 minutes of shutting off the mains water.  

Warren -


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## RobW

When I was doing partials and small AGs & before I had a chiller I would put the boiler in a sinkfull of cold water & change the water once or twice before putting it in the fridge to cool completely. The cold water brought the temp down to moderate levels fairly quickly and took most of the load off the fridge. It was usually close to pitching temp after about 6 hrs (10-15 litres). Not much cold break but that didn't seem to have any adverse effect on the beer.


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## Weizguy

I believe that the Fresh Wort jerry-can packs (ESB and Potters brewery) are filled at above 80C and then sealed. Fill high and leave little headspace for oxygen/ oxidation.

I had an ESB Belgian Ale sitting in my dining room (and other places around my home) for about 12 months before I pitched yeast for the brew. Was still a very clean and interesting beer. Just a little sweet, with the raspberry flavour. Should've used the lambic yeast blend instead of the Wyeast Belgian II.

So, the summary is: no plastic flavour, no apparent oxidation, even with long storage.

Seth out


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## AndrewQLD

Last sunday I brewed my house ale after a big saturday night on the turps. Unfortunately by the time it came to chilling the wort I was VERY green so decided to try the method you are talking about.
I racked the boiling hot wort to a Plastic jerry can being careful not to splash, sealed the container so it was air tight and left it overnight on the garage floor. By the next morning the wort was blood temp so I threw the jerry can in the fridge and left till that night to transfer, aerate and pitch a 1.5 lt starter.
The things I noticed about this method are.
1: The wort was crystal clear when I racked it to the fermenter.
2: There was about 1.5 lt of cold break in the bottom of the jerry can when I finished the transfer to fermenter, and this is more than I usually get with my immersion chiller.
3: fermentation startup was a little slower due to the wort being at 17c instead of the 22c it usually is.

The beer is chugging along nicely now and if anyone is interested I would be happy to post my thoughts after a taste test when fermentation is finished. I brew this beer at least once a month so I am confident I will be able to taste any differences.

Cheers
Andrew


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## warrenlw63

If anybody were to contemplate "hot-packing" wort. A couple of Corny kegs would do the job nicely too. At least then you're transferring hot wort to stainless vessels. You could then apply blanket-pressure CO2 to the wort and store in the fridge (or wherever) until you're ready to transfer to the fermenter and pitch your yeast. Also allows for a closed transfer to the fermenter. h34r: 

Worth a thought.  

Warren -


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## Pumpy

This is one of the most interesting posts I have read for a long time.

effectively if ESB can do it whay cant we  thats what it boils down to excuse the pun .

It gives brewers a flexibility by storing their wort until they wish to ferment just think you could brew two batches over a couple of weekends and then ferment a double batch in the fermenting fridge and save more time .  

Pumpy


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## Thommo

Someone may correct me on this, but I don't think the cubes we racked into at Braidwood were sterilised.

Could be wrong, but I don't remember it happening.


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## Pumpy

The cubes at the Braidwood Project were straight from the factory 'not 'sterilised and some guys added there yeast a week later 

Pumpy


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## Duff

warrenlw63 said:


> If anybody were to contemplate "hot-packing" wort. A couple of Corny kegs would do the job nicely too. At least then you're transferring hot wort to stainless vessels. You could then apply blanket-pressure CO2 to the wort and store in the fridge (or wherever) until you're ready to transfer to the fermenter and pitch your yeast. Also allows for a closed transfer to the fermenter. h34r:
> 
> Worth a thought.
> 
> Warren -
> [post="114812"][/post]​



That's what I was thinking as well Warren. Seems the safest way if one was paranoid about getting oxygen in their beer during transfer. Hit it with a bit of CO2 after transfer.

But I would imagine that if racking off at a high temperature into a sealed cube, there should be very little risk of something affecting the beer. You would have to squeeze in the sides so the beer was near the top of the rim before screwing the lid on.

Will try tomorrow. 

Cheers.


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## Pumpy

Duff,this is just a thought if you use your stainless steel kegs when the wort cools will it suck in the sides of the keg ??

pumpy


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## Joel

This is a very interesting topic that's come up. My current method is to use the IM chiller for about 30min by which time the wort has fallen to about 40C (give or take a couple of degrees depending on the weather). I use a slow flow rate so as to not waste water, even after collecting the washing up water. I then chuck the cooled wort in the fridge for anywhere from 6 hours to overnight. 

I guess I'm using a hybrid method, part IM (but not down to pitching temps) and part no-chiller method. So far it's worked well for me. But I've got to be honest and say that the only reason I've got a chiller at all is because I thought I had to have one.

I reckon I'll give the no-chiller method a go. I don't mind the idea of 'hot-packing' the wort (self sanitising) so long as I'm careful about splashing and initial cleaning of the cube (HSA from splashing is another issue. Is HSA really real?). And the transfer of the cooled wort from the cube to fermenter provides the perfect opportunity for airation. The major thing I've gleaned from this thread is the use of a part of the wort to make/stepup the starter like MAH suggested... why didn't I think of that before now?

Something new to think about anyway.


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## Pumpy

Joel said:


> The major thing I've gleaned from this thread is the use of a part of the wort to make/stepup the starter like MAH suggested... why didn't I think of that before now?
> 
> Something new to think about anyway.
> [post="114827"][/post]​





Sometimes there are so many good ideas on this site ,Joel that they dont all register ,

I have recently used ideas posted a year ago and think I should have been a bit quicker on the uptake :huh: 

pumpy


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## MAH

I would be interested in Ray's input in regards to the impact on hops. I'm thinking of beers like pilsners, APAs, bitters etc, that should have a noticeable fresh hop flavour/aroma. I wonder how long you can delay the start of fermentation before there is an impact on the hop flavour/aroma, if at all.

Cheers
MAH


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## Steve Lacey

I still want to know why the DMS/diacetyl or whatever is not an issue.

But anyway, if it is not an issue, why not go one step further. Do the boil with hops in a hop bag a la Ross's curtain method. Flame out, wait a few minutes and fish out the hop bag, pop on a lid. Leave til next day, pitch yeast directly into boiler. Ferment three days to a week, rack to secondary, or even to corny to finish off fermentation. You would need ambient temperatures in your favour though. (It is still early spring here, so this idea appeals to me).


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## johnno

Can I just be extra lazy and transfer it to a airtight fermenter, let it cool overnight then pitch the yeast?

johnno


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## Bobby

dms shouldnt be an issue as it should have been boiled off already. if it isnt an issue with the use of an IC then it wont be an issue with the no chiller method. the only difference is the time to cool the wort.


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## Pumpy

johnno said:


> Can I just be extra lazy and transfer it to a airtight fermenter, let it cool overnight then pitch the yeast?
> 
> johnno
> [post="114842"][/post]​




Yes you can ,I done it after the Braidwood project but the ambient temperature was not cool enought to reduce to yeast pitching temperature I had to put it into the fridge to reduce the last 10 C to bring it to 15C

pumpy


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## Jye

> Can I just be extra lazy and transfer it to a airtight fermenter, let it cool overnight then pitch the yeast?



That would be ok as long as you pitch enough yeast. It would be safer to do some form of aeration.



> dms shouldnt be an issue as it should have been boiled off already



Steve, this is the reason you dont boil with a lid on and diacetyl is an off flavour produced by yeast not wort.


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## warrenlw63

Pumpy said:


> Duff,this is just a thought if you use your stainless steel kegs when the wort cools will it suck in the sides of the keg ??
> 
> pumpy
> [post="114823"][/post]​



That's urban myth Pumpy  (I've heard other brewers espousing the same thing). I've filled kegs with boiled water and emptied with CO2 to drive out O2 for long term storage.

They're S/S would take some mighty suction to implode them. :lol: 

Warren -


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## Uncle Fester

If you were really keen to place a layer of C02 over the wort, then Bunnings sell a 20 litre Jerry for (about $12 from memory) that has 2 spouts and caps. A schraeder valve in each, and you can fill one from a tyre valve, and purge through the other ????


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## Guest Lurker

...besides which, kegs seal under pressure, not under vaccuum...


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## warrenlw63

warrenlw63 said:


> They're S/S would take some mighty suction to implode them. :lol:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="114847"][/post]​


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## Ross

Pumpy said:


> effectively if ESB can do it whay cant we  thats what it boils down to excuse the pun .
> 
> Pumpy
> [post="114816"][/post]​



Do ESB pack their fresh wort kits with hot wort without chilling??

I would have thought not, but maybe they do...

cheers Ross...


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## AndrewQLD

Ross said:


> Pumpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> effectively if ESB can do it whay cant we  thats what it boils down to excuse the pun .
> 
> Pumpy
> [post="114816"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do ESB pack their fresh wort kits with hot wort without chilling??
> 
> I would have thought not, but maybe they do...
> 
> cheers Ross...
> [post="114877"][/post]​
Click to expand...


I am a bit dubious myself to Ross. The one ESB fresh wort kit I used had no break material in the bottom. perhaps they are cooled and filtered and then raised to Pasteurisation temps for packaging???

Edit: although I do beleive they are packed hot because the container was slightly collapsed.
Cheers
Andrew


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## warrenlw63

AndrewQLD said:


> I am a bit dubious myself to Ross. The one ESB fresh wort kit I used had no break material in the bottom. perhaps they are cooled and filtered and then raised to Pasteurisation temps for packaging???
> [post="114878"][/post]​



Maybe they centrifuge the hot wort? Not 100% certain however this is meant to remove the break, hops & trub from the hot wort? :unsure: 

Warren -


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## PistolPatch

What an interesting thread even for someone who has not done an AG. (My next brew is going to be an AG - cheers, Ross.) Thanks MAH.

Jazza's post (#4) really struck me as I was thinking, if I were not in a 1 bedroom apartment, I would buy a 44 gallon plastic drum, (these are really cheap!), fill it with no rinse sanitiser (betadine - cost minimal, thanks Pint), throw fermenters and everything in there, and use the same water to cool my brew using an immersion chiller. If I've cleaned everything properly, I could re-use the same water the next week, just adding a little more iodine.

I'm not a full-on greenie but I did say to Ross on Monday that I don't think I could just let 100 litres go down the sink in my apartment.

I'm actuallly thinking of doing a variation of the above as then I could store my equipment elsewhere in the '44' during the week.

If what I'm thinking is way off track then let me know via PM and I'll delete this post asap.

Really interesting reading though. Thanks all.


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## Tony

Well.....

I have done some serious thinking about this topic.

I personly dont believe in HSA. I dont splach my wort around to try out my beliefs though so this is not a concern for me.

I cant see any problems with running 80+ dec c wort into a vessel and storing it for a bit. The grumpys no.1's and Braidwood fresh wort kits i tried years ago were not infected. or oxidised and some of them sat there for months.

I do know that sometimes i have a spare day to brew but have no room to put a fresh wort so i have to leave it a couple of weeks and end up with room for a week and no beer brewing.

With this method, i could do a 50 liter batch, run it into 2 x 25 liter tubs (bought them today ) and rack it off the break into the firmenter when i want to.

I am really liking this idea.

Thanks Ray.

Ahhhhh you learn something every day on here.

cheers.


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## Ray_Mills

Hi all
Well I have started someting here.
I first came across the wort transfer to a 20L plastic drum at last years IBU's Big Ray's Big Brew day in May at my place
Tim Thomas the brewer from Five islands Brewery brings over his great "Tower of Power" and brews on the day with me as well as JW and Scotty with their equipment.
With all these brewers at my place at the same time I was worried about how do we cool all these boiled worts at about the same time.
Tim had the answer and came with 4 drums from the brewery, they were 20l drums now used for spirits. So we all decided to use these instead of chilling worts with a huge amount of water with the current water restrictions.
JW forgot to take his wort home and he left it at my place. After 5 months and he never collected it I decided to ferment it.
This beer was a Rye IPA with a heap of hops. so i did not have any idea if it will be ok.
Found a good yeast and fermented it. Kegged it and had some brewers over to try it. This beer was wonderfull and poor JW never had a drop.
While all this was going on I was having an infection problem that took me 2 months to find where it was coming from.
1. Yeast
2. Fermenter
3. Racking to Secondary
4. Secondary Fermentation

I finally traced it down to wort cooling and racking.
From that day onwards I rack to my drum and have never had a problem

I have never noticed any changes to yeast, hops and malt flavours.
It reduces my brew day time 
As detailed before it has a huge amount of advantages and makes sence in the long run.
Cheer
Ray


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## Joel

So, The DMS is driven off during the boil (assuming you don't cover your kettle during the boil). So you don't have to worry about that.

If your careful about transferring the hot wort then you don't have to worry about HSA. (That's if you believe in it... if you don't then you can happily spash your hot wort around and call it airation  I don't believe in HSA, but I don't splash hot wort around either... just in case... :unsure: )

The hot wort will kind of self sanitise the cube and keep it under a bit of a vacuum seal (maybe with CO2 if you've got it).

Then you can leave it to cool/store it for almost as long as you like before airating it, transferring to fermenter and pitching the yeast.

Sounds like this new no-chiller method has alot to recommend it. I think that quite a few people will be trying it in the near future. I hope everyone posts the results. I'd love to read about everyone's experiences. I reckon I'll give it a bash in my next AG brew... which is sadly going to be a few months away.

Woohoo! 100th post!


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## sah

Ray, 

Do you deliberately brew to have a total wort volume a multiple of 15L or are you happy to leave larger headspace in one of the drums?

Do you cover it with CO2?

regards
Scott


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## Ray_Mills

SAH
The drums are 20L not 15L
Cheers
Ray


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## Borret

Joel said:


> So, The DMS is driven off during the boil (assuming you don't cover your kettle during the boil). So you don't have to worry about that.


DMS is created during the boil as well as driven off. Palmer is probably the obvious place quote for this

_DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller._

Brent


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## ausdb

johnno said:


> Can I just be extra lazy and transfer it to a airtight fermenter, let it cool overnight then pitch the yeast?



Just tried it on thursday night on a batch of pale ale, makes the old fridge work hard as others have said but had it down to 21 last night when I pitched the yeast. Heaps of break in the bottom of the fermenter, was like egg drop soup when I took a hydro sample.


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## Weizguy

Borret said:


> Joel said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, The DMS is driven off during the boil (assuming you don't cover your kettle during the boil). So you don't have to worry about that.
> 
> 
> 
> DMS is created during the boil as well as driven off. Palmer is probably the obvious place quote for this
> 
> _DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller._
> 
> Brent
> [post="115007"][/post]​
Click to expand...

G'day Brent,

Please be advised that the DMS issue, IIRC, is of high importance to US brewers (e.g. Palmer).
Why, you ask? Coz US brewers get a lot of 6-row malt, which can produce more DMS than we are used to here, with 2-row.

So, rapid cooling is not as important for the DMS reason in Oz, as it is in the US.
...unless someone else wants to correct me?

Seth


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## Linz

What kind of beers have people done this too??

Any wheat beers?, got one pale ale to see the results soon, any stouts/porters,Amber ales???


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## Weizguy

Linz,

My last wheat beer, an ag Vienna Weizen, was cooled overnight in the sink, in a sealed fermentor.

The beer is being bottled today after fridge ferment and 2 weeks cc'ing. Tastes good to me already.

Did the same with an Irish Red in Friday night/ early Saturday morning. Sealed and cooled in sink, then fridge, to 18 C.

Seth out


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## Linz

Ive got the 25 lt cube from the braidwood event , so I might give it a go to save water from the cooling process.

Just more greenhouse gases from the generation of the extra electricity I'll be using in the fridge !!!


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## Tony

I dont think the idea is to run it into the cube to be cooled rapidly in the fridge folks.

Corect me if in wrong but wouldnt it be easier to just rack it to the cube hot and leave it to sit in a corner for a couple of days/weeks/months and brew with it when you are ready. I think thats the ideah on it.

If i am brewing and want to pitch the yeast that day i will use my chiller but if i make a brew and dont have room for it i will just rack it to cubes and leave in a dark corner in my garage till the time is right.

Putting 25 liters of 80 deg liquid in a fridge is a certain to kill the fridge preety quick

cheers


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## ausdb

Tony said:


> I dont think the idea is to run it into the cube to be cooled rapidly in the fridge folks.
> 
> Corect me if in wrong but wouldnt it be easier to just rack it to the cube hot and leave it to sit in a corner for a couple of days/weeks/months and brew with it when you are ready. I think thats the ideah on it.



Yes and no, when its 1:30AM in the morning and you are knackered and haven't had time to sanitise the CFC then the fridge is a great idea!

On that not though I might try to it again for wort production during the week, drop home and mash in at lunchtime. Have the urn on timer for sparge when I get home, boil then into cube and be over at a reasonable hour. You could then pitch the yeast a few days/weeks later. Would help with the brewing spontaneously bug and not get min the crap with mrsausdb for being up brewing all night.

Could also be good for double brews, run off a cube for a mate or later then chill the rest and pitch quick. Just like a mini ESB or braidwood setup.


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## Kai

With regards to pasteurisation times, there's a few things that need to be considered.

First and most obviously, the wort has just come off a minimum of an hour's worth of boiling. It's when the wort is moved from kettle to vessel that is the risky phase. Given the heat loss during transfer, I'd want the wort to be over somewhere around 80C, and for it to remain above 65C for at least half an hour. Plus I always make sure my kettle tap is clean and my racking tube & collection vessel are cleaned and sanitised.

Pasteurisation calculations work on log reductions in viable microorganisms. Since the wort has been boiled for an hour, and assuming you keep your tap, tube and cube clean, there is not going to be a large quantity of bugs in your wort to begin with. Add leaving it in a sealed cube above 65C for half an hour to an hour and you're not going to have a very large microbiological count left. Sealing it in the cube (as well as effectively pasteurising the cube at the same time) means there is no chance of introducing further infection. I haven't measured the temperature of my wort in the cube (since I want it to remain sealed), so I can't vouch for how long it stays in the pasteurisation zone. For comparisons sake, milk gets 15 seconds at 72C, but milk is a different product.

I'd actually sit down and work out the ideal time/temperature profile, but my uni notes are all stacked away and I don't particularly feel like digging for them.

On the practical side of it, I don't stick it in the fridge because I don't think the fridge is a terribly efficient way of cooling it. I'd rather leave it outside, especially if there's a light breeze. When I am ready to pitch, I drop it into a fermenter to aerate. By then there is usually a fair proportion of break material settled out and left behind.


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## pb unleaded

Hello.

I've tried similer method without success. I posted it on Grumpys forum nearly a year ago. Here is the link:

http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=46518

arthur


----------



## Guest Lurker

arthur said:


> Hello.
> 
> I've tried similer method without success. I posted it on Grumpys forum nearly a year ago. Here is the link:
> 
> http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=46518
> 
> arthur
> [post="115164"][/post]​



Arthur that link contains some opinions from people who havent tried it, not evidence that the method had no success. Did the beer taste of DMS (cooked cabbage), diacetyl (buttery popcorn) or any other infection?


----------



## pb unleaded

> Did the beer taste of DMS (cooked cabbage), diacetyl (buttery popcorn) or any other infection?



Yes it did. All of the above and more. I won't be doing that again.

arthur


----------



## Ray_Mills

Arther
Have you ever had DMS, Diacetyl in any ESB Wort kit you havebrewed or tried,
Maybe these problems were coming from other areas not the wort itself
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Ross

Ray_Mills said:


> Arther
> Have you ever had DMS, Diacetyl in any ESB Wort kit you havebrewed or tried,
> Maybe these problems were coming from other areas not the wort itself
> Cheers
> Ray
> [post="115192"][/post]​



Am I missing something - I never heard Arthur mention ESB wort kits?

Here is someone who has tried the method & got the results that respected brewers have warned against - I'm sure people have had great results going against "the grain" in a lot of aspects of brewing - but you take the risk & you live with the results... I'm tempted to use this technique on a double brew day, where the extra 30 minutes saved would be most welcomed - but unless I'm really strapped for time , I'd rather not take the risk & jepordise a brew...

cheers Ross...


----------



## Kai

I count Ray as a respected brewer and it works for him, Ross. And it has worked for me too so far, FWIW.


----------



## jimmyjack

Im in the "If it aint broke dont fix it camp" However i was tempted to try it today and opted against it as I didnt have a new cube and had plenty of time. I did however underlet for the first time with great success!!!!

Cheers, Jj


----------



## Ross

Kai said:


> I count Ray as a respected brewer and it works for him, Ross. And it has worked for me too so far, FWIW.
> [post="115215"][/post]​



Kai - my comments wern't meant as a knock against Ray or anyone else - As I said, I'm intending on trying myself - I'm just saying that general literature that we all respect says that this is bad practice & there are risks involved...

cheers Ross...


----------



## Kai

Sure, but it's always worth considering if problems were caused by alternate issues. There are a lot of variables in brewing, and on the other side of the coin I'm not ruling out finding problems with this method in future.


----------



## Linz

Before anyone jumps the gun here Arthur stated he 'boiled', 'stored', then 'fermented' ALL IN THE SAME VESSEL!!!!! 

We're talking of boiling in one vessel, storing in another, and fermenting in a third


----------



## JasonY

Well I was plannig a lager today bu after sampling the starter and finding a nice vinegar taste to it I decided not to bother. Beer stocks are low however so I decided to give this a shot and knocked up a quick ordinary bitter which is not sitting in the jerry can, will aim to get some yeast going in it by the w/end.

I find this a very intersting idea, I don't think I would make this a regular thing regardless of how it turns out as to chill with a CFWC take me only an extra 10mins so in terms of time savings it is not going to do it for me. 

However for the situation I was in today it allows me to still brew which is great! I may also use it as AusDB mentioned to make a 50L batch and chill half and store the other half (my ferm freezer cant take a 50L fermenter). 

Ray, thanks for bringing this method up. Another bit of flexibility for brewing is always good.


----------



## pint of lager

This debate has been interesting, but brewers must be certain of the risks and variables in the process.

It is widely accepted that achieving a quick cool down and pitching as soon as possible is prefferable brewing practise.

It is also obvious that some brewers are having success with storing hot and pitching some time into the future. Just because the process works for people like Kai, Ray Mills and microbreweries does not automatically mean that it will work for you. 

Kai and Ray Mills are brewers that have shown in the winner's circle that they pay alot of attention to their brewing. They may have perfected variables that other brewers may still struggling with. Boil length and strength, water treatment, correct hopping, correct transfer and perfect sanitation are variables that spring to mind that would have an effect on wort stability. Just because it works for people such as Kai and Ray, does not automatically mean it will work for you.

This is a big trap for many newer brewers who see or read of different proceedures that Ross, Kai, Ray, GLS, Barry or of any other top notch brewer, without understanding that these advanced brewers pay attention to all aspects of their brewing. For instance, a brewer that has access to large coldroom facilities will have a big edge over people who store their brews at room temperature, because cold storage means the brews do not show signs of aging as quickly. 

There are many many variables. It is only side by side experiments that can give a true picture.

Storing warm does give some flexability to the brewing day, but should not be looked on as the way to go.


----------



## warrenlw63

Easier put.

It's a hobby not administering life-altering medication to one's self.  

Try it if you must. If you like it and it works for you. Then you're in a win-win situation. If not well at least you've appeased your curiousity. :beerbang: 

Warren -


----------



## T.D.

One of the best beers I have made was done without using a chiller. I just filled a 25L cube and left it overnight. My chiller is pretty small (only 5-7m of copper I reckon) and I shudder to think what dodgies could be landing in that wort in the ~30mins it takes to cool. Not to mention the water that is used during the process. This may be a really practical way to go in the future - especially for lagers where the chiller won't get the wort down to pitching temp anyway. I could leave the hot wort in a cube overnight and then put it in the fridge the next day until it arrives at pitching temp. 

I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but this is the exact way the ESB Fresh Wort kits are done, and as far as I know they are highly regarded in terms of quality. Clearly the "fast chill and pitch" rule doesn't seem to be adversely affecting their results. I am not saying that I will do it this way every time, but I certainly won't rule out doing it in the future. As Duff indicated, you have the added benefit of doing several brews at once and then pitching them as needed or as fermenters become available.


----------



## MAH

As homebrewers much of our knowledge and practices come from the commerical world. On a number of oaccasions we have seen that commercial practices don't always translate to homebrew best practice. For exmaple, fly sparging. In a commercial setting, a commercial brewery is likely to adopt this method because, if done correctly, it will enable them to wash the highest percentage possible sugars from the grain bed (obviously stopping before they start extracting tannins). In the early days of home brewing, fly sparging was the way to go and we have all ready early books that discussed in great detail manifold designs to stop chanelling. Many people got hung up on such things, but a few decided to try batch sparging. The results were fine for a home brew environment and in most cases worked better, with the only down side being a small drop in efficiency (although if your fly sparging technique was poor, there was often no drop in comparative efficiency).

The no chiller method might be the new batch sparging (please note I said might). My guess that rapid cooling is essential in a comercial setting for a couple of reasons. The most obvious is that letting commercial quantities of wort, tens of thousands, to cool by ambient air alone is going to take a very long time. Time is something that commercial breweries don't have on their side (unlike us). They have to worry about throughput. They need to get the beer fermented, bottled and out on the market as quickly as possible.

Just because, something is accepted as standard practice, doesn't mean that it will be the best approach for you or your situation. I've tried the no chiller mehtod before (when my pick-up tube got clogged and I had to siphon straight into a jerry can) and it worked for me. 

So if you're interested, then give it a go. Maybe make a double batch and run the first half through a CFC and the second half treat as the no chiller method. Once both batches are fermented, then taste them side by side (blind tasting preferably). 

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Ross

Duff said:


> Didn't want to suck up the break. Will rack my Oktoberfest this afternoon to a fermenter. I'm hoping with a 20L cube and tap that most of the break should settle down the sides.
> 
> Cheers.
> [post="115475"][/post]​



Can we have clarification here from those that use this method - my understanding was that "hot wort" kits were packaged hot & therefore the break material is still in there?? Or does waiting 15 mins like Ray does, actually still remove the break? I know some feel the break material is good for the wort - I personally prefer to remove. If I have to rack off the break material from the cube I'm going to have double the wastage, as my dead space in the kettle will still be left there.
This method has it's advantages to me on a double brew day, where I'm strapped for time, but just want to get the process correct in my mind...

cheers Ross...


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ross, the fifteen minute rest after the boil will allow you to drain the still hot wort minus the hot break and trub, the same as if you cooled the wort then drained. The issue with this method is ALL of the cold break will end up in the cube after the wort has cooled to pitching temp. For me that was not an issue because I racked the wort off the cold break leaving about 1.5 lt of very thick cold break in the bottom of the cube.
The 1.5 lt loss in the cube does not worry me because with my boiler setup I have no losses after draining.
hope that helps

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## JasonY

In terms of hot break it will be the same as any other brew most should be left in the kettle if you whirlpool etc. What cold break you get will wind up in the cube this is no different for those who CFWC as the cold break ends up in the fermenter anyway. If you immersion chill then yes you will end up with more break material in your cube/ferementer as you would have previously left most of it in the kettle.

The question is will there be as much cold break as a beer that is force cooled? I assume the only potential effect of this would be a higher chance of chill haze etc with less protiens removed in the cold break. Anyway in a few weeks I will see how the one I tried ended up like.


----------



## Ross

AndrewQLD said:


> Ross, the fifteen minute rest after the boil will allow you to drain the still hot wort minus the hot break and trub, the same as if you cooled the wort then drained. The issue with this method is ALL of the cold break will end up in the cube after the wort has cooled to pitching temp. For me that was not an issue because I racked the wort off the cold break leaving about 1.5 lt of very thick cold break in the bottom of the cube.
> The 1.5 lt loss in the cube does not worry me because with my boiler setup I have no losses after draining.
> hope that helps
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="115478"][/post]​



Thanks Andrew - that makes perfect sense - But would still like to know what ESB does with their hot wort kits - If they package hot, then I'm assuming all the cold break material is left in the product they sell?

cheers Ross


----------



## Ross

JasonY said:


> In terms of hot break it will be the same as any other brew most should be left in the kettle if you whirlpool etc. What cold break you get will wind up in the cube this is no different for those who CFWC as the cold break ends up in the fermenter anyway.
> [post="115479"][/post]​



I guess there's no point in CFWC users using this method - as you have the cool wort in almost exactly the same time anyway? 

cheers Ross...


----------



## JasonY

Ross said:


> I guess there's no point in CFWC users using this method - as you have the cool wort in almost exactly the same time anyway?
> [post="115483"][/post]​



I agree it doesn't save me much time given I CFWC. 

I still find it interesting and it certainly adds a bit of flexibility as I mentioned in my post further back (yeast starter failed but I wanted to brew so I have some wort sitting there wating for yeast).

If the one I tried works ok then I will try a split batch for a lager next time which will be a good experiment.


----------



## pint of lager

Some reading on hot and cold break from Brewing Techniques.

Cold Trub: Implications for Finished Beer, and Methods of Removal

Hot Trub: Formation and Removal


----------



## MAH

Ross said:


> I guess there's no point in CFWC users using this method - as you have the cool wort in almost exactly the same time anyway?
> 
> cheers Ross...
> [post="115483"][/post]​



Hi Ross

Maybe not. Ray has indicated that he no longer uses a chiller at all and the benefit is that he has one less piece of equipment that needs sanitising. There have always been concerns about CFC's because they are a closed system and you can't visually imspect the inner coil. For those that use a CFC, but are worried about how clean they can get it, this might be an alternative approach.

For IC users there is very little problem with sanitising the equipment, for them it's a question of exposing the wort to airborne contaniments during chilling. Not sure how big an issue this.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Stuster

Interesting reading PoL.

The first article suggests to me that the benefits of removing the cold break are not that vital, and extra steps tend to add risks after all.



> The cost of extra equipment and labor and the increased risk of contamination are valid arguments for not removing cold trub.





> It may be detrimental to some beers, especially those made from high-gravity worts.



The article suggests leaving cold trub in higher gravity worts.



> Most American breweries no longer remove cold trub.



While the article goes on to say that pale, light lagers may benefit from cold trub removal, and since this is the main product of the American breweries, they would do it if there were any benefit.

Overall, cold trub removal appears a good thing, but hardly the end of the world. 



> The effects of cold trub removal are subtle and may not be noticeable for several generations.


----------



## Duff

Ross said:


> AndrewQLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ross, the fifteen minute rest after the boil will allow you to drain the still hot wort minus the hot break and trub, the same as if you cooled the wort then drained. The issue with this method is ALL of the cold break will end up in the cube after the wort has cooled to pitching temp. For me that was not an issue because I racked the wort off the cold break leaving about 1.5 lt of very thick cold break in the bottom of the cube.
> The 1.5 lt loss in the cube does not worry me because with my boiler setup I have no losses after draining.
> hope that helps
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="115478"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Andrew - that makes perfect sense - But would still like to know what ESB does with their hot wort kits - If they package hot, then I'm assuming all the cold break material is left in the product they sell?
> 
> cheers Ross
> [post="115480"][/post]​
Click to expand...


I'm sure you'd know what the process is Gerard. Could you fill us in? A couple of times you've mentioned picking up wort containers which are still warm.

From my experience with them, there is no break material at all inside, just clear wort.

Cheers.


----------



## Gerard_M

OK so without giving away too many secrets, the Fresh Wort Kits that Matt @ St Peter's produce for ESB are made using a single step mash. Irish moss tablets are added to the boil with 15 minutes to go. (2 Tabs per hl) After the boil the wort gets a 20 minute whirlpool. At the finish of the whirlpool there is a rest to allow the trub cone to form, before the casks are filled. The wort is still very hot when it goes into the cask, probably still over 90 degrees C. There is always a little bit of trub that settles out in the last few casks, so these casks are not sold. If there is going to be any cold break form, it will be in the cask.

When we were still in the shop at North Ryde we got a delivery of HOT Fresh Wort Kits. They didn't even have the labels on them. The next morning they were still warm, but it really didn't matter as they were all sold by lunch time! Simply add 5 litre of very cold water. Warm kits are pretty common as the demand for this product continues to grow. Its nice to know that the brew you are about to put down was still grain 36 hrs ago. I wonder how long those cans sit on the shelf at Woolies?
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Borret

MAH said:


> Ray has indicated that he no longer uses a chiller at all and the benefit is that he has one less piece of equipment that needs sanitising.
> MAH
> [post="115493"][/post]​



-1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.  

Brent


----------



## warrenlw63

warrenlw63 said:


> AndrewQLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit dubious myself to Ross. The one ESB fresh wort kit I used had no break material in the bottom. perhaps they are cooled and filtered and then raised to Pasteurisation temps for packaging???
> [post="114878"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they centrifuge the hot wort? Not 100% certain however this is meant to remove the break, hops & trub from the hot wort? :unsure:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="114880"][/post]​
Click to expand...





Gerard_M said:


> At the finish of the whirlpool there is a rest to allow the trub cone to form,
> [post="115519"][/post]​




Told yas so!  

Warren -


----------



## apd

Borret said:


> -1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.
> 
> Brent
> [post="115523"][/post]​



Not if you use one of your existing fermenters or ferment direct in your boiler!


----------



## MAH

Borret said:


> -1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.
> [post="115523"][/post]​



From boiler to fermenter. Lid on (I have a spare lid without a hole for the airlock). Let cool naturaly. Take off lid. Airate. Add yeast.

One less piece of equipment.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Duff

Gerard_M said:


> OK so without giving away too many secrets, the Fresh Wort Kits that Matt @ St Peter's produce for ESB are made using a single step mash. Irish moss tablets are added to the boil with 15 minutes to go. (2 Tabs per hl) After the boil the wort gets a 20 minute whirlpool. At the finish of the whirlpool there is a rest to allow the trub cone to form, before the casks are filled. The wort is still very hot when it goes into the cask, probably still over 90 degrees C. There is always a little bit of trub that settles out in the last few casks, so these casks are not sold. If there is going to be any cold break form, it will be in the cask.
> 
> When we were still in the shop at North Ryde we got a delivery of HOT Fresh Wort Kits. They didn't even have the labels on them. The next morning they were still warm, but it really didn't matter as they were all sold by lunch time! Simply add 5 litre of very cold water. Warm kits are pretty common as the demand for this product continues to grow. Its nice to know that the brew you are about to put down was still grain 36 hrs ago. I wonder how long those cans sit on the shelf at Woolies?
> Cheers
> Gerard
> [post="115519"][/post]​



Excellent, thanks Gerard. Big brew weekend coming up.

Cheers.


----------



## Weizguy

Borret said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ray has indicated that he no longer uses a chiller at all and the benefit is that he has one less piece of equipment that needs sanitising.
> MAH
> [post="115493"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.
> 
> Brent
> [post="115523"][/post]​
Click to expand...

Brent,

Maybe the number of pieces of equipment is the same, but he no longer needs to sanitise the cube. Just rinse the cube out, and allow the hot wort to sanitise it!

QED
Seth out


----------



## Borret

Thankyou to all my personal mentors, but if you refer to the statement I replied to it is talking about ray who has said he uses 20L drums not fermentors like yourself... no matter what you do to clean it.. 
As for not sanitising a drum... would you ever prepare a yeast starter the same way and also not sanitise the container. I wouldn't trust it on the starter scale or on the full batch. 
So howl me down again if you please but I stand by my statement 

Brent


----------



## MAH

Borret said:


> would you ever prepare a yeast starter the same way and also not sanitise the container.
> [post="115547"][/post]​



Yep.

I don't specifically sanitise the starter container by adding iodine or whatever. I simply add water and goo to my Schott bottle. I then place this in a sucepan full of boiling water for 15 or so minutes to make sure the starter wort is pasturised. The heat and steam from the pasturisation is enough to sanitise the container.

You can do a similar thing well in advance by bottling your starter wort in a progessively larger bottle, maybe a stubby for the first step and then an old 2 litre flagon for the second step. Pop the cap on the stubby and pour in your yeast for the first step. A few days latter, pop the top on the flagon and pour all of the stubby into the flagon.

I suspect that the idea of running the hot wort into a cube follows similar principles. The 60min to 90min boil pasturises the wort. When transfered to the cube the heat and steam sanitises the inside.

On a commercial scale you can imagine why they wouldn't want to sanitise each cube before they're filled with wort. But like I said before, commercial practices don't always translate well to homebrewers and it takes very little effort for you to sanitise the 1 or 2 cubes you would use. 

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Borret

MAH said:


> Borret said:
> 
> 
> 
> would you ever prepare a yeast starter the same way and also not sanitise the container.
> [post="115547"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> I don't specifically sanitise the starter container by adding iodine or whatever. I simply add water and goo to my Schott bottle. I then place this in a sucepan full of boiling water for 15 or so minutes to make sure the starter wort is pasturised. The heat and steam from the pasturisation is enough to sanitise the container.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH
> [post="115556"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Sorry that is not the same.... that equates to leaving a full batch in the boiler and fermenting it there. The starter vessel has been at near 100deg for 15 min also.

I said ... 'would you prepare a starter the same way " and evidently you don't and I don't reckon anyone would.


----------



## Ross

Chippy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> There is a wholesale winery nearby to wagga that off loads quite a few of these 22L cubes @ $3 each. Let me know if I can help in anyway in regards to posting say 4 taped together and wraped in a garbo bag.... using aussie post.
> 
> Just fix me up for the cost price plus postage and I will be glad to send a few all round OZ.
> 
> Peter
> [post="115599"][/post]​



What would the freight be peter? I'm guessing pretty high on the size of the package...

Cheers Ross


----------



## Batz

If it could be done I'll be in it,but I think postage would kill any savings

Batz


----------



## Joel

Sounds good. Look forward to seeing how much the postage is.


----------



## Ray_Mills

Hi
A couple of things that might help
Some pubs might have these cubs as they are now used for spirits.
As for cleaning them when used I just wash them out with hot water and shake them, put in half a teaspoon of sodium med put on the lid and leave them till next time. This will stop any growth of what want to live in it.
When you want to use it next rince it and sanitise the same way you would with your fermenter. 
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Darren

What an interesting topic!
Have not looked at the board for a week or so and there are 7 pages on not cooling your wort prior to pitching. To do this is the best way to ensure that SOME of your brews will be badly infected. Slow cooling of beer is certainly asssociated with the production of dimethyl sulphide (DMS) as mentioned in earlier posts. Another cause of DMS is boiling with the lid on. DMS IMHO is ok in an American pale ale (heaps of hops to overcome it) but in a lager is disgusting. 
You must bear in mind some people cannot taste DMS or diacetyl (about 20% can taste it). There are many different styles of beer and some levels of particular compounds are acceptable in them. To think that not cooling your wort will work for all styles is acceptable is just plain silly.
The time it takes wort to cool from hot (45 degree C) to ferment temp is considerable and is the most likely time you will pick up infection.
You must bear in mind that some people make 52 beers a year and only enter the best ones. This alone could skew their successes!
The cans that ESB use to make their wort kits are BRAND NEW and there has never been any fermenation products in them. It would be interesting to see their success if they re-used those cans? They probably have a clean room for packaging too.
Simple message, ALL beer should be cooled rapidly and fermented as soon as possible.

cheers
Darren


----------



## Gerard_M

Darren said:


> The cans that ESB use to make their wort kits are BRAND NEW and there has never been any fermenation products in them. It would be interesting to see their success if they re-used those cans? They probably have a clean room for packaging too.
> Simple message, ALL beer should be cooled rapidly and fermented as soon as possible.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="115618"][/post]​


darren
The casks that ESB use are recycled, many times over. They are filled hot right next to the kettle at the brewery.
On an average week I sell 40-45 Fresh Wort kits, & I am yet to see an infected one turn up. If you do as ray said , give it a hot rinse & a sterilant then it is easy to do many times over. If it works you can't really knock it.
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Ray_Mills

Darren
Brew a lager your normal way, give it a rest for 15 min after the boil, rack it to a 20l cube, make sure the cap is srewed on tight. Leave it overnite where ever you want and let it cool.
Ferment it 2 weeks later when you and your yeast is ready.
Ferment the beer the normal way you have always done.
Rack it into a secondary and lager it as normal. (this is where you have to be very clean)
Bottle or keg your beer
If you have DMS let me know as i have done this 20 times now with no DMS in my beers
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Duff

So you must be in the 80% that can't taste it Ray  

Cheers.


----------



## Darren

Ray, Gerard,
I do respect your opinions but the taste is the test. If you are willing send me one and I will post my opinion. 

cheers
Darren


----------



## Ray_Mills

Duff
I am but my mate Scotty loves DMS in lagers and goes out of his way with great effort to get DMS in his beer.
Guess he is really in the 20% and loving it
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Darren

Duff said:


> So you must be in the 80% that can't taste it Ray
> 
> Cheers.
> [post="115628"][/post]​




Duff,
Are you one who can?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Darren

Just one last thing on this silly topic.
You people have of course heard of the organisms that THRIVE on anaerobic (no oxygen) conditions. Now they will make you sick.

cheers
Darren


----------



## Boots

I'm curious about the DMS thing, because everything that I've read says that you WILL get DMS doing this.

I'm going to think out loud here and get to the point sometime ... please take this with a grain of salt I'm an expert in nothing.

Commercial breweries can over oxygenate their worts because with the large volumes they brew in, pressure can build up at the bottom of their vessel (with the weight of all the liquid on top) and the oxygen will oversaturate the wort. On a homebrew scale this is very hard to do, as the oxygen at the bottom of the vessel only has to fight the liquid weight of 20 Litres, so it will easily leave the liquid as long as there's not too much head pressure.

I wonder if the DMS thing works on a similar basis. Is it possible that on a homebrew scale it is easier for the DMS to leave the liquid due to reduced volumes / pressures. So an extended cooling period produces less DMS for a homebrewer than it would for a commercial brewer?

Or does the fact that people are slow cooling in a sealed environment mean that if DMS was there, it would stay there.

Could someone with a good understanding of the DMS life cycle comment?


----------



## homebrewworld.com

If it works you can't really knock it.
Cheers
Gerard 


Yep, i am with ya there Gerard.
HBW


----------



## Darren

I think if you are producing wort (not in a sterile clean room) and selli9ng you COULD read COULD be asking for trouble.
Please try and reform your thinking on this type of procedure.

cheers
Darren


----------



## Darren

Boots said:


> I'm curious about the DMS thing, because everything that I've read says that you WILL get DMS doing this.
> 
> I'm going to think out loud here and get to the point sometime ... please take this with a grain of salt I'm an expert in nothing.
> 
> Commercial breweries can over oxygenate their worts because with the large volumes they brew in, pressure can build up at the bottom of their vessel (with the weight of all the liquid on top) and the oxygen will oversaturate the wort. On a homebrew scale this is very hard to do, as the oxygen at the bottom of the vessel only has to fight the liquid weight of 20 Litres, so it will easily leave the liquid as long as there's not too much head pressure.
> 
> I wonder if the DMS thing works on a similar basis. Is it possible that on a homebrew scale it is easier for the DMS to leave the liquid due to reduced volumes / pressures. So an extended cooling period produces less DMS for a homebrewer than it would for a commercial brewer?
> 
> Or does the fact that people are slow cooling in a sealed environment mean that if DMS was there, it would stay there.
> 
> Could someone with a good understanding of the DMS life cycle comment?
> [post="115640"][/post]​




Boots,
Good question. I don't know the answer. Do you think the oxygen is combining with the dimethyl compound? Maybe.

Have you tasted or smelled DMS? 

If you haven't the best time to "smell" it is just as the boil is coming to. Stick your head in the kettel (beware of the heat) and have a "sniff" of the steam. Once you have smelled it you will never forget it.

cheers
Darren


----------



## warrenlw63

Darren said:


> Stick your head in the kettel (beware of the heat) and have a "sniff" of the steam. Once you have smelled it you will never forget it.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="115653"][/post]​



That's a worrying habit you've developed yourself there Darren. :blink: 

Warren -


----------



## Doc

As previously stated at the Braidwood Real Ale brewday we put the wort into cubes at ~70 degC and then transferred to fermenters over the following weeks without any issues.
I've done a number of ESB wort kits (when stock are low around March every year) and have never had a problem with them.
So the method is valid if you attend to your sanitation.

Doc


----------



## Uncle Fester

Darren said:


> Just one last thing on this silly topic.
> You people have of course heard of the organisms that THRIVE on anaerobic (no oxygen) conditions. Now they will make you sick.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="115639"][/post]​



True. There are many anaerobic organisms out there. However, there are far fewer anaerobic organisms out there that can survive 90 minutes of pasteurisation followed by an overnight cool from 100 degrees to room temp.

I would guess that there are also organisms out there that are resistant to sodium met or iodophor or beer line cleaner as well. However they don't have a great affect on our results. (Although occasionally one seems to cop a dose of a super bug that won't go away).

M

Ps: I would hardly call this topic "silly"

Seems to be backed up by Market practice and heaps of success.


----------



## dicko

With the utmost respect to all that have commented on this thread and the other one re "hot wort" for that matter, I was told by an experienced brewer on this board that when I whirlpooled my wort I should put the lid on the kettle while it settles so as to eliminate "nasties" from the wort.
Now, considering that I tend to leave the lid of my kettle on my wort while it is whirlpooling for at least 15 minutes and then this same lid remains on the hot wort while the March pump is pushing 50 litres of near to boiling wort through the CFWC, I observe that the lid is on for about 35 to 40 mins in total.
How much DMS have I introduced to my beer during this period with the lid on the kettle?
Before receiving this valued advice on whirlpooling and keeping the lid on the kettle I used to just leave the lid off and pump the wort through the CFWC.
I will be honest and say that I have not tasted one bit of difference in my beers.
Now I am not an expert and I admit that I don't make a lot of light coloured lagers but I am now wondering would my procedure of having the lid on the kettle at a time when the wort is extremely hot, cause DMS and I just can't taste it??
This is IMO the most interesting topic that has come from this forum in recent times and I am now waiting patiently for the brew I didn't run through my CFWC on the weekend to taste how it turns out!
Cheers and waiting patiently,


----------



## Gerard_M

Darren said:


> I think if you are producing wort (not in a sterile clean room) and selli9ng you COULD read COULD be asking for trouble.
> *Please try and reform your thinking on this type of procedure.*
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="115647"][/post]​



Darren
You have gone all Tom Cruise on us.
Oh & can you please show me how to sterilise a room! 
Hard enough to find a brewery floor that drains properly.


----------



## Joel

http://www.abtonline.com/dms.html

Not a bad little read on the formation of DMS.

With good sanitation practices and a little care, there is probably less danger from getting sick from beer made this way (or in any way) than there is in eating reheated chicken.


----------



## Guest Lurker

Darren said:


> Have you tasted or smelled DMS?
> 
> If you haven't the best time to "smell" it is just as the boil is coming to. Stick your head in the kettel (beware of the heat) and have a "sniff" of the steam. Once you have smelled it you will never forget it.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="115653"][/post]​




Now, given Darren is the resident AHB safety officer and suggester that stands will fall over, and autoclaves will blow up, this post surprises me. I work on mine sites where I get in big trouble for doing dangerous stuff, so I love to live on the edge on brew day. But...sticking my head in the kettle, just as it is foaming up to the boil? Actually, yes I did, once, and was lucky to retain the sight in my right eye, I got it closed just as the mud pool spat flew up, and just burnt my eye lid.


----------



## dicko

Joel said:


> http://www.abtonline.com/dms.html
> 
> Not a bad little read on the formation of DMS.
> 
> With good sanitation practices and a little care, there is probably less danger from getting sick from beer made this way (or in any way) than there is in eating reheated chicken.
> [post="115668"][/post]​



A good read Joel,
Thanks for the link.
I hope this topic doesn't turn into a battle between the supporters of each side of this subject, but instead, have some positive input regarding both sides of the argument.
I would like to ask if any of the last years successful brewers in the brewing competitions used this method when they presented their entries?
I would be interested to hear if any entrants in genuine Aussie HB comps last year have received result sheets indicating DMS or any other problems when they have used this no chill method?
Come on now! lets tell it as it is, so that we can all make a positive and informed decision on this method.
Comments from successful comp entrants would be appreciated.
Cheers


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> The time it takes wort to cool from hot (45 degree C) to ferment temp is considerable and is the most likely time you will pick up infection.



Like I've said, I don't think there is a sufficient quantity of microorganisms left in the wort for an infection to take hold in the time it takes to cool in a cube; provided the tap, racking hose and cuve are sufficiently cleaned and sanitised. And you're not going to pick up a new infection because it's a sealed environment.

I haven't noticed DMS in my beers, but that's not to say it's not there. Dicko also raises a good question about leaving the kettle covered for extended periods after the boil. 



Darren said:


> Just one last thing on this silly topic.
> You people have of course heard of the organisms that THRIVE on anaerobic (no oxygen) conditions. Now they will make you sick.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="115639"][/post]​




I've been pondering this one, but I don't think it's very likely. The number one critter that springs to mind is botulinum, of which spores obviously will survive the boil. The factors I've considered include:

1 O2 pickup when racking from kettle to cube, and whether that's enough to inhibit botulinum growth

2 The presence of hops and the antimicrobial effects they have.

3 The lag time involved in botulinum growth and toxin production. While it's only a small amount of toxin required, are other bacteria going to grow first, and/or produce gas or other visible signs of activity? This is, of course, assuming points 1 and 2 are not enough to retard botulinum.

4 The fact that as far as I know there's no reported cases of botulism traced back to toxins formed in beer wort. Homebrewers have used stored jars of wort for starters for a long time, it's even suggested in a few books on home brewing. While that doesn't automatically make it safe, I haven't heard of any cases of people keeling over because of it. Of course, there's a first for everything, but I won't be losing much sleep.


----------



## warrenlw63

Weizguy said:


> ...and they did recycle condoms back in the days when they made connies of pig gut, and didn't know better.
> 
> Seth out
> [post="115673"][/post]​



So that's where the saying "A pig in a poke" comes from? :lol: 

Kai.

I think if the cube is filled with minimal or no headspace there wouldn't be too much to worry about. If any one's contemplating trying hot-packing their wort into cubes a sustained blast of CO2 from their kegging setup would probably give a little peace of mind.  

As for lids on kettles give me some risk of DMS over bacterial infections any day when I'm immersion chilling wort for anywhere up to 45 minutes.

One last point and I'm not sure if it's really relevant, some brewers advocate the use of some sodium met in their mashes. What benefits would be derived from say 1/4 of a teaspoon of the stuff being added to the hot-packed wort before the lid goes on the cube? It's supposed to be an anti-oxidant IIRC. Would this prevent the chances of anything untoward growing in the unpitched wort? :unsure: 

Warren -


----------



## Kai

Dazza's talking about critters that do grow in the absence of oxygen, warren. Though you do bring up a good point -- I think some of them don't like high concentrations of CO2 either.


----------



## T.D.

warrenlw63 said:


> One last point and I'm not sure if it's really relevant, some brewers advocate the use of some sodium met in their mashes. What benefits would be derived from say 1/4 of a teaspoon of the stuff being added to the hot-packed wort before the lid goes on the cube? It's supposed to be an anti-oxidant IIRC. Would this prevent the chances of anything untoward growing in the unpitched wort? :unsure:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="115684"][/post]​



I know they use it like its going out of style in the wine industry. Chuck a bit in here, chuck a bit in there etc etc. They use it to reduce oxygenation. I doubt it would harm, but all the same I probably wouldn't bother.


And just a general comment on all of this...
I get the impression a bit in this topic that the stuff that is attracting the most focus may be some of the least important issues. Surely there are (should be) greater potential risks influencing our decisions whether or not to use this no-chiller method than things like DMS - something that only a few people can even detect anyway. I'll say one thing that I will never "reform my thinking" on, I will take a potential (even speculative) risk of something like DMS turning up in my beer, that I probably won't taste anyway, *any day* ahead of the much more real threat of airborn bacteria landing in my wort during the 30min+ chilling process. We all like to solve brewing related problems here - that's kind of the point of this forum in some respects, and I think its great. But I think sometimes we are in danger of putting way too much emphasis on issues that require relatively little attention. 

In my opinion, you can't argue with something as successful as the fresh wort kits. The EXACT way they are done is what we are discussing here. We have probably all tried them and agree that they are a quality product. Furthermore, they have been around for ages and have stood the test of time. I have not once heard anybody make any criticisms of them that are in line with what has been discussed above.

Yeesh, I know its only 8am, but I think I need a beer... :blink:


----------



## warrenlw63

Kai said:


> Dazza's talking about critters that do grow in the absence of oxygen, warren. Though you do bring up a good point -- I think some of them don't like high concentrations of CO2 either.
> [post="115686"][/post]​



Kai.

I thought for the brewers crazy enough to have their wort sitting unpitched for numerous weeks a bit of sodium met may have a preservative effect. That said I think it needs an acid environment to kill bugs.

At least it may work in a positive way in regards to absorbing O2.

Warren -


----------



## Gough

I can see the merits of both sides of this debate, and may at some future time try the 'no chiller' method should a starter fail or such like. Just out of interest though, how many of us have had problems with post boil contamination occuring during the chilling phase of brewday? I always brew outside in the elements, and in nearly two years of fortnightly all grain brew sessions I'm yet (touch wood) to pick up an infection - my only previous infection was in a K+K brew years ago. I use an immersion chiller. Given it has happened to others and is bound to happen to me someday, how many of us can trace the problem to the 20-30 minutes we spend chilling our wort? Surely convenience would be the reason for moving to the 'no chiller' method should people choose to rather than fear of chilling related infections?

Shawn.


----------



## warrenlw63

Shawn.

I spend up to 60 minutes. 30 mins water & about the same with a pond pump chilling my wort. I've never picked up an infection this way either.  

I got paranoid about 3 years ago transferring brewing from the laundry (inside) to brewing in the very draughty asbestos wonder of a garage h34r: and touch wood I've never had a problem either. That said (DMS risk or not) I make sure the top of the boiler is as close to completely covered as I can humanly manage. 

Hey! Maybe we can fashion a hermetically-sealed oxygen tent for some. (Settle down Darren I'm only joking) :blink: 

Way of the future! :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## dicko

Gough said:


> Surely convenience would be the reason for moving to the 'no chiller' method should people choose to rather than fear of chilling related infections?
> 
> Shawn.
> [post="115697"][/post]​



Yes Shawn, convenience and improved time management in my brewery is the sole reason of my enthusiasm for trying this method.
I use a CFWC and I have had one only beer that I had to tip out :angry: 
and as far as I could tell, that infection came from a yeast slurry that I used which IMO was getting a bit tired and lag time was excessive.
I am extremely pleased with the informed posts on this topic and as time goes on I'm sure we will get some true and accurate results on this subject.
Cheers


----------



## dicko

Another advantage may be for any newbie to AG reading this, may opt for this method (if proven successful) so as to eliminate the need for a chiller of any kind and, dare I say it, they may not even need a March Pump.  

Ah! Would they still be a "real brewer"??

Cheers


----------



## Batz

That's another thing
I have a 90lt kettle,the lid is mostly on,just a gap for steam to excape.
If I did not do this all my wort would boil off  
Now the condensation that drips back into the boil,it this not distilled water?

Batz


----------



## Gough

dicko said:


> Gough said:
> 
> 
> 
> Surely convenience would be the reason for moving to the 'no chiller' method should people choose to rather than fear of chilling related infections?
> 
> Shawn.
> [post="115697"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Shawn, convenience and improved time management in my brewery is the sole reason of my enthusiasm for trying this method.
> I use a CFWC and I have had one only beer that I had to tip out :angry:
> and as far as I could tell, that infection came from a yeast slurry that I used which IMO was getting a bit tired and lag time was excessive.
> I am extremely pleased with the informed posts on this topic and as time goes on I'm sure we will get some true and accurate results on this subject.
> Cheers
> [post="115708"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Thanks for that Dicko and Warren. Convenience/time issues would be the major reason I'd try it, although I am happy enough with my brewday as is at the moment. Like I said in an earlier post though, I might give it a go should need arise at some time in the future. I was just a bit surprised that the reasoning seemed to be running that infection control was the major benefit to be gained.  

Shawn.


----------



## Borret

I agree that this idea has it's merit and have enjoyed the discussion from both sides. The way I see it though is there is still no room for sloppy brewing habbits. Failing to observe the cleanliness rituals that you normally would employ will still put you at greater risk of disaster. :unsure: Failing to admit that is only kidding yorself as you will be the one drinking the resulting beers.
But we all tread our own paths and some brew at levels others wouldn't be happy with..... but we all are all still making beer.  If it seems more convenient then give it a go. As others have said I don't feel the need at this point but might try it down the track, particularly once the result from the pioneers are in.  
For newbies it is definately an option I would be trying if put in a position of weighing up budget versus starting to make better beers.

Batz as for distilled water. I believe this is only if there are no other voaltiles that that will condense at the same point. As we are not running tiered distillation towers on top of our kettles like they do to distill the various grades of oil based fuels, then I belive you are indeed getting more than just pure H2O drop back in. As to whether this poses a problem then who knows. Judging by the dynamics of a classic copper brewery kettle.... I'm guessing not  

Brent


----------



## MAH

A couple of points.

*DMS* 
If only 20% of people can taste it and you happen to be the part of the other 80% who can't taste it, then why even bother trying to eliminate it. I say this because as homebrewers, we are basically making beers for ourselves and if you can't taste it, then it doesn't matter. If you want to win competitions or impress the other 20% of people, then go ahead and do all you can to eliminate DMS.

*The "Nay Sayers"*
It's interesting that the majority of those who are suggesting that you try the no chiller method have practical experience by either making their own no chiller wort or having fermented a fresh wort kit. These people are reporting their actual successes. The nay sayers seem to be preaching from the bible without putting their faith to the test. If you absolutely think that it's a crock, then don't try it, but this topic has developed into a discussion of what would be the best approach if you do want to try the no chiller way. I agree with earlier comments and hope this thread keeps openly discussing pros and cons on the procedure, without blanket staements on whether or not it will work.

*Infections*
It's been said that a possible source of infection is from anerobic bacteria. Again current home brew practices suggest that this is not a significant problem. Those people that pre-prepare starter wort and store in bottles would be able to give some insights on the success of avoiding infections.

*No substitute for good sanitation practices*
As many have pointed out, the no chiller method should not be seen as an opportunity to cut back on the need to maintain a sanitary brewing environment. The hot wort into a cube _might_ be enough to pasturise the container, but on a home brew scale, it takes bugger all effort to give a cube a good rinse with whatever sanitiser you use.

*Benefits*
It's becoming clear that the 2 major benefits are for new extract or AG brewers who might not have a chiller. If the no chiller method is viable, then it might encourge more brewers as they don't need as much start-up gear. The other benefit is that it has the pottential make your brewing more flexible. You might have the time to brew a couple of batches, but not the space to ferment them all at once or whatever variation on this theme.

Let's keep exploring the idea with an open mind, have people report their results and if it fails....... then shelve it as a silly idea. 

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Trent

Quite an interesting topic, and well argued. I myself would find it pretty difficult to go against the tide with my comments, not having tried it, so I wont say too much till I have tried it. I currently use a cfwc, and I love it, so may not be trying the no chill method any time soon, but will definietly give it a go one day. My only question, however, is how long have people been doing it, and if it is a reasonable time (6 months to a year), do they still have any beers left of their original batches, and how did they perform over time? I like to leave my bigger beers for a while, and leave at least a few of my regular beers for 6-12 months if possible, and would be concerned about the long term stability of the beer. I thought that was another reason we are supposed to chill quickly, but I have been wrong before, so would like to hear back about that. Not that it should stop anybody doing it, most batches are gone in a month or 2 anyway!
All the best
Trent


----------



## big d

Great topic thus far.I enjoy my brew day.Time is not an issue and at this stage neither is water usage.This will change later on in the year when i move and rely on tank water.
I find the answer pretty simple in the pros and cons camp.
Two brews each the same recipe and methods used except one will be chiller cooled the other into a cube and cooled.
Complete the cycle as per normal routine and when the finished product is ready compare against each other.Theres your answer.If no discernable difference then its a no brainer.
I will sit on the fence with an open mind until i try the no-chiller method.

cheers
big d


----------



## sluggerdog

I'll be giving this one a crack for sure however it's no real benefit to me unless I do not have the fridge free or the yeast ready, it does give me a chance to brew on those off weekends when a lager is bubbling away in the fridge.

One thing I do ask is should the cube be full? I have either a 25 litre cube or 15 litre cube and I like to make 20 litre batches?


----------



## berto

Hi all, 
Ive been following this thread, but as yet have not made a post. slack i know. Especially as i have been doing this in a way for teh past 12 months of partials and now AG. I dont have a chiller of any kind, nor do i see the need to go down that path with the results i am getting. I should try a steam beer or similar so i can taste infections and flaws easily given there is a lack of malt and hop flavour in there. 

The only difference to my style at the moment is i drop it straight into the fermenter and then just pitch into there 2 days later or so when it has cooled sufficiently. I have been trying to do this as quick as possible due to all the hype about needing to pitch soon to reduce the risk of infection. 

I would be keen to whip up in drums and store it for a few weeks before pitching given that it would allow me to make an ale and lager on the same day, yet ferment at different times due to having only 1 fermentation fridge. 

I have a few bottles of an ESB im willing to let some of the sydney guys taste to see how they feel about it. May even drop one in to weizguy next time im up near the swamp. Id rather get objective opinions from people who have more knowledge about tasting these beers and what flavours should and shouldnt be there. Shoot me a pm if you want a try. Its likely it will be my Xmas in July beer too, so any suggestions greatly appreciated. I dont wanna go giving too much of it away, so the first few can score a bottle each or so to see how it runs. 

Also have an APA and Kolsch in secondary fermented using this method which would be interesting to have people taste. 

Hope this mindless ramble has provided some insight to someone out there. 

Cheers, Rob


----------



## vlbaby

This is interesting thread guys. I've been following everyones comments and have yet to make up my mind as yet. 

One question regarding the DMS issue has popper into my head ( doesn't happen very often) . Is a boiling wort a never ending source of DMS? All the literature points to not covering the kettle so that this DMS does not fall back into the wort. This is understandable, i guess, but after the wort has been boiled hard for 1 - 2 hours surely there is no more DMS to produce? There must be some point were all the wort capacity to produce this by product are exhausted!

I like a few other brewers like to cover the kettle during wort chilling. I am not sure if I have or havent experienced DMS before as I'm not completely sure what it is meant to be. But I sure as hell would prefer not to produce beer that has this quality even if i'm in the 80% that cannot taste it.

I'm keen to try the no chiller method myself, the reason being I dont trust the sanitatiin level of my CFWC. A cube on the other hand can be washed , inspected for visible signs of cleanliness, sanitised, and filled with piping hot wort as a final sanitation. To me the odds of infection in this setup are very favourable.
However the DMS issue still worries me. 

Can anyone confirm if hot wort can endlessly produce DMS?

cheers

vl.



*edit* spalling errers


----------



## Ray_Mills

Hi
Lets look at the extract brewer for a change.
The reason is I will be having an old mate coming over tomorrow nite and he has tried the K & K brewing and wants to go to the next step.
All he needs is a few extra bits of equipment.
1. a keg to boil in
2. a three ring burner
3. a 20l wort plasic wort drum.

It takes him say 30 to 45 min to get the wort to the boil
boils for 60 min
rests for 15
Then into the drum.

The extract brewer has a brew day of around 2 hours at the most. 
The no chiller will make the new or K & K brewer thinking of moving to the next step. Giving him or her better beers

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Tony

Very true ray.

I have not tried this method yet but will soon. I think it will help with flexability.

One thing i thought of was being able to do 2 brews in one day. While the first is boiling the second is mashing. No fun if doing tripple decoctions but a couple of pale ales for the keg would be a sinch..

The first gets chilled and put in a firmenter with yeast and brewed, the second gets run into the cubes and left to sit in the corner.

When the first is done, rack it to secondary and just dump the second brew i did on the yeast and keep going.

Big time saver.

You could keep your first generation teast going for weeks 

I have had a fair few beers get into the top 3 at big comps and i have never covered my kettle when chilling. I just turn off the gas and give it a stir over the chiller every few min to cool it quicker.

But cant coment on the no chiller method just yet.

I cant see any problems though.

Sometimes i think people wory too much.

cheers


----------



## Dunkel_Boy

Finally!! Phew... 11 pages is a big job.

By the way, I'm back, if anybody missed me (no?).


I'm surprised that the cold break comes out of suspension as readily just leaving it sit there than shock-cooling it, but then again 30 minutes isn't exactly shock cooling, so that might explain it. I would have thought that was decent science in action right there... hang on, it's just a function of temperature isn't it? Not rate of temperature loss?

Sorry for thinking out loud - so much easier than typing cohesively.


Adrian


----------



## Kai

warrenlw63 said:


> Kai said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dazza's talking about critters that do grow in the absence of oxygen, warren. Though you do bring up a good point -- I think some of them don't like high concentrations of CO2 either.
> [post="115686"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kai.
> 
> I thought for the brewers crazy enough to have their wort sitting unpitched for numerous weeks a bit of sodium met may have a preservative effect. That said I think it needs an acid environment to kill bugs.
> 
> At least it may work in a positive way in regards to absorbing O2.
> 
> Warren -
> [post="115695"][/post]​
Click to expand...



Ah, gotcha wazza. Because you mentioned sod met's antioxidant qualities it didn't occur to me that you were referring to its bacteriostatic ones.


----------



## tangent

i thought the wort had to cool sufficiently before the cube plastic was safe to introduce 80C+ heat?


----------



## big d

Its got me beat.
If brewers are so hung up on the length of a brew day why are you bothered with brewing your own beer.This topic is about a different method but is slowly swinging to a time saving method.I love my brewday.I couldnt care less about 5-10 minutes saving.Big deal.Try it and see the outcome.
Enjoy the day a few beers a different method what ever.Brewing rocks and i cant get enough of it.

cheers
big d


----------



## Dunkel_Boy

The number 1 reason I'm interested is the water saving. I've always thought of this... spiral or plate Hx's, etc, but have also thought of good old time - now I have a way to do it! Very happy that 85% of the water I put into beer is going to beer! Now I just have to recondense my water lost through evaporation in the boil...

What effects would pumping liquid nitrogen (very small amount, carefully) into hot wort do? Nitrogen is inert (moreso than CO2), but may be unsuitable for bacteria, etc. Again, thinking bigger than I ought to, but the gas could be recovered - if it didn't all remain dissolved - and used for carbonation down the track, if one were so inclined. Or something else requiring an inert atmosphere. Bad idea? Don't worry about cost.


----------



## redbeard

what a HUGE thread ! ive been thinking about double batches & now i see this as a good way to do it. the 1st 20l will go via the cfcw thingy into the fermentor & the remainder into a cube, to ferment when the 1st has been racked.

as to dms, i had the impression from reading here that most/all was boiled off during the 1st 60mins.

i think if the no chill method becomes popularly acceptable, it could bring in a few k&k converts to ag brewing by limiting the equipment/investment needed.

it would be interesting to combine long/overnight mashing, with no chiller to give an ag procedure to those brewers with small time blocks. could attract some more k&k types  

cheers
cm

edit - :9s/available/needed/


----------



## crozdog

Top thread guys.

i've been considering this method for 6+ months, but even more now that the AG setup is closer.

For those interested in using this method & need cubes, have a look at this mob I've found here in Sydney (Mt Druitt) - plastic drum recyclers. You can find em on ebay as well, just do a search for "plastic drum".

They have cubes for $5-$10 as well as 60L drums for $20 which I reckon would be easy to convert into a big fermentor for those double batches (much cheaper than the $75 that a LHBS quoted me!)

In addition they have 200l & 1000l containers which would make cheap rain tanks.

No affiliation etc.

Crozdog


----------



## Kai

Agreed, warren. Those smells can be a bugger to get out.


----------



## warrenlw63

'Twas the Aceobacter that had me more or less worried Kai. However yes, gherkin beer would not be particularly pleasing. h34r: 

Warren -


----------



## Borret

Except the smell. Got a subway gerkin bucket. 1 year on and many different potions and lotions when I got it.... still stinks.. :lol:

Brent


----------



## AndrewQLD

warrenlw63 said:


> 'Twas the Aceobacter that had me more or less worried Kai. However yes, gherkin beer would not be particularly pleasing. h34r:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="115935"][/post]​




Too right Warren


> The bacterium which ferments pickles and kraut is extremely harmful to your beer, and if it should infect your beer equipment it may be impossible to get rid of it.


From Here Bodensatz
Not something I would like within Coo-ee of my brewery.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Boots

From the previously linked article at here



> The level of DMSO does not change during the kettle boil. A small amount of DMS, 0.4 ppb, may be contributed by hops, especially if added in large amounts late in the boil. As long as the wort is hot SMM will be converted to DMS. It is important to convert SMM to DMS in the kettle so that build up during the hot wort stand is minimized. The following steps should insure low levels of DMS in the finished beer:
> 
> 
> Boil the entire wort 90 minutes or longer
> 
> Ensure that the boil is vigorous - rolling
> 
> Allow at least 8% evaporation
> 
> Minimize the hot wort standing time
> 
> Rapidly cool the wort
> The DMS produced during the hot wort stand will stay in solution even if the hot wort tank is vented. For every extra hour of hot wort stand, a DMS increase of approximately 30% will result. The level of DMS in the wort determines the level of DMS in finished beer. In order to predict the level of DMS in finished beer Table V shows the relationship between SMM in malt and DMS in beer.
> 
> During fermentation, the evolution of CO2 removes and reduces the level of DMS. At moderate DMS levels of 30-60 ppb a 30-35% reduction can occur, while a 35-60% reduction can occur at higher initial DMS levels, 60-150 ppb.


----------



## Stuster

While we're quoting things, this is from a ProBrewer thread. Sounds like getting the wort below the highest temperatures fast is the key. Racking will certainly help the wort to drop from boiling fast. Any idea how hot the wort is when first in the cube, anybody who has tried this.





> So at 70C/158F, the *rate* of DMS formation is about 230 times less
> than
> at boiling.
> At 86F/30C the rate is 3300 times lower than at boiling
> At 68F/20C the rate is 14800 times lower then boiling, and abt 4.5 time
> less than at 86F/30C.
> This is a reasonable extrapolation form the 70C-110C data.
> 
> The biggest gains by far are always from reducing the time at highest
> temps. One extra minute at 200F is worth an extra day at 85F !!
> (give or take a factor of two). I strongly believe that the problem
> is
> NOT the extra time once you get the wort down to 85F, but the extra
> time it took to get the wort from 212F down to 175F.
> 
> I think there are two ways to approach this.
> 1/ Boil longer and convert more of the SMM->DMS and boil it off. An
> extra 20 min should make a significant impact - 25% - 50% reduction.
> 2/ Find a way to drop the boiling wort temp FAST. Perhaps introduce a
> bolus of 10% pre-boiled & chilled water to the boiler (if possible).
> The problem is due to the extra minutes spent at the highest temps.
> Literally 1 minute at boiling produces as much DMS as one hour at 142F
> !! If you could find a way to instantly drop the boiling wort to
> 90C/194F, then continue chilling at your normal rate you'd reduce the
> chill-period DMS production by a factor of 4 or 5 !! That's huge.



The other reason DMS may not be a huge issue is the level of the precursor, SMM, is quite low in Australian malts. According to Wes in an old thread



> Modern pilsner malts including JW Pils, are malted or rather kilned to achieve a certain malt flavour/aroma as distinct from the poorly modified and low temp kilned pils malts of yesteryear Europe. For those who love the detail, JW Pilsner malt has a max of 4 PPB (parts per billion) DMS precursor.



That is in contrast to what is stated in the article Boots links to where the rates for American malts are apparently 40-110ppb. Perhaps this is why there is no problem with DMS using Aussie malts.


----------



## sintax69

> Do you reckon those drums could handle an immersion element, and become a cheapo kettle?
> 
> or, to quote from "The Castle", Tell me I'm Dreaming.....
> 
> Have some jousting sticks going cheap...




http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...et%20of%20death


I made one of these last year that blue plastic bins are NBG I got a brand new one from riverwood in NSW where they sell them to companys nothing was ever in it and every boil i did it had this plastic tang taste I did nearly 30 boils with those buckets steeped them I gave up in the end the other thing is its near impossable to measure your water with them they go roundish and keep changing shape .But they do make great grain storage bins they is a clamp that goes round the lid that air seals them .


----------



## Thommo

Darren said:


> For all the "yayers" on this topic. I will make an analogy. Would you have sex with a stranger without a condom just because someone else did and said they didn't get AIDS?
> I am sure many practice unsafe sex and don't get AIDS. Doesn't mean AIDS doesn't exist.
> I have no doubt that rapid chilling is a scientifically proven part of the brewing process, otherwise why would megabreweries save on their time and water costs and just "miss" this part of the process.
> Sometimes you will get away with being lazy or slack. Generally though it will come back and bite you!
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116094"][/post]​



I was under the impression that the main reason the bigger breweries cooled quickly was so they could produce more beer. 25 litres takes two days to get down to ambient temperature, so how long would 23,000 litres take with no method of chilling save for the surrounding atmosphere?

Just wondering how the monks cooled their wort centuries ago. Did they have wort chillers, or perhaps by submerging the wort into a stream, or did they just wait?

Don't read this response as being sarcastic, just some questions for people to answer because I am interested.


----------



## Andyd

Just to make things interesting I sent off a request to James at the basic brewing radio podcast to see what a wider audience might think of the idea.

This week's episode has the question - we'll see whether anyone in the wider land has opinions (as if they wouldn't  )

Andy


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> For all the "yayers" on this topic. I will make an analogy. Would you have sex with a stranger without a condom just because someone else did and said they didn't get AIDS?
> I am sure many practice unsafe sex and don't get AIDS. Doesn't mean AIDS doesn't exist.
> I have no doubt that rapid chilling is a scientifically proven part of the brewing process, otherwise why would megabreweries save on their time and water costs and just "miss" this part of the process.
> Sometimes you will get away with being lazy or slack. Generally though it will come back and bite you!
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116094"][/post]​



Come on Darren, you're a real scientist, and you know that "scientifically proven" doesn't mean that it's set in stone forever. Many scientifically proven practices at a later date have been disproven. 

And no-one said that DMS or the chance of developing a wort infection through the no chiller approach don't exist, people are simply saying that they believe the probability of this occuring is very small. 

Your AIDS example is just a cheap emotive statement. AIDS is a serious incurable health risk, DMS is just a nasty flavour in your beer. And serious infections from anerobic bacteria like botulinum has an annual incidence rate in place like the US of 1:3,000,000. When you further consider that 70% of botulism is infant botulism, which is very different to food botulism, then the annual incidence rate drops to almost 1:10,000,000. People are jsut saying that combined with good sanitation practices, they are willing to take those risks. If you think that the risks are too high, then don't bother with the no chiller approach.

For a mega-brewery this approach wouldn't work because it wouldn't save time or money. Letting their volumes of wort cool naturally would take a very long time, and they are under economic pressures to concentrate on through-put. Therefore chilling rapidly will increase production and hopefully sales/profit.

Also your staement that "I have no doubt that rapid chilling is a scientifically proven part of the brewing process, otherwise why would megabreweries save on their time and water costs and just "miss" this part of the process." is hardly scientific. You have taken a fact, megabrewies force chill, then simply concluded that this must be correct. Such logic is as flawed as, all dogs have four legs, my cat has four legs, therefore my cat is a dog. One statemet doesn't prove the other. Maybe you should have taken some philosophy electives at university  .

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Gerard_M

Batz
That is a typical alarmist response from you. What Darren said was that the type of person who wouldn't chill their wort asap, has mates that are having unprotected sex with any old slapper that turns up!
Nuff said really


----------



## T.D.

Duff said:


> I thought commercial breweries use Glycol to chill rapidly so they can start fermenting ASAP to keep the swill pouring out the door.
> 
> Cheers.
> [post="116113"][/post]​



Exactly what I would have thought. To me its a very simple cost-benefit situation:

God only knows how long 50,000-100,000L will take to cool on its own but lets assume its over a week (probably MUCH more).

So that brewery would not be able to use the vessel that the hot wort is in for weeks. One of the fundemental rules in business is never let your plant and equipment unnessesarily sit idle. The cost of a heat exchanger is absolutely nothing compared to the cost of having that equipment tied up while you wait for the wort to cool. The opportunity cost could be 2-3 brews, worth potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in turnover. The reason the big breweries don't do it is as clear as day, and has NOTHING to do with quality, and EVERYTHING to do with the almighty dollar.


----------



## T.D.

sintax69 said:


> Do you reckon those drums could handle an immersion element, and become a cheapo kettle?
> 
> or, to quote from "The Castle", Tell me I'm Dreaming.....
> 
> Have some jousting sticks going cheap...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made one of these last year that blue plastic bins are NBG I got a brand new one from riverwood in NSW where they sell them to companys nothing was ever in it and every boil i did it had this plastic tang taste I did nearly 30 boils with those buckets steeped them I gave up in the end
> [post="116061"][/post]​
Click to expand...


I think most of these kinds of drums are only rated up to around 80 degrees C. I probably wouldn't use them for a boiler, but they should work well for a mash tun or hlt.


----------



## Joel

I don't know about everyone else, but the discussion in this thread has prompted me to actually do a bit of research (rather than make wowser or emotive arguments) on the internet regarding the facts of DMS production.

If you haven't already read my other link on DMS production in beer, here it is:

http://www.abtonline.com/dms.html

A good article from Brewing Techniques regarding DMS precursors in Malts;

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b...sue1.1/fix.html

Has recipes and references to other works on this subject.

Interesting article on an alternate source of DMS production in beer;

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/65/9/3915

Yes... That's right. Yeast can also contribute to DMS formation in beer, although it isn't very much, only about half a microgram per litre (ug/L).

The following extract was taken from; http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/d...c_beerInfo.html


> Another major compound responsible for sulfury flavours in beer is dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which is a desirable flavour component in lager beer but not in ales. In lagers it will lead to a malty/sulfury note. The taste threshold for DMS is considered to be from 50 to 60 g/L. DMS also enhances the malt character of beer. Malting procedures have a much greater effect on beer DMS levels than fermentation conditions. Lower fermentation temperatures and increasing wort gravity favour DMS production.



So, it looks like we actually need some of this stuff in our beer... but not too much.

This is a good article on testing for DMS in beer:

http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/pdfs/backissues/37-0030.pdf

It also has a good table listing average DMS content (ug/L) by country. Apparently the average Aussie beer has 80 micrograms/litre.

If you want to get your beer tested and find out exactly how much DMS there is in it, these guys in America will do it for US$77;

http://www.siebelinstitute.com/services/craft-brewing.html

Basically, the upshot is the malt is the main contributor of DMS precursors into our beer. HOWEVER, (and this has been stated previously) most modern malt, and certainly all modern Australian malt, are specifiecally made to contain 4 ppb (parts per billion) DMS precursors. In laymans terms 4ppb = bugger all. This FACT, combined with a good long (uncovered) boil will remove approximately 70% to 80% of any DMS contributed to the wort by the malt. 

The difference in the speed of chilling, whether you're using a CFC, IM or no chiller method, is only a couple of hours in the "DMS Danger Zone" ie. above 80C where DMS formation is rapid. With the miniscule amounts of DMS precursors left in the wort after a good long uncovered boil, the amount of DMS formed in the cube will probably only be on the order of a few micrograms/litre, ie bugger all and barely measureable.

Please bear in mind I don't have any hard evidence or references for my last statement. I would have thought however that it follows naturally from the evidence presented. 

To my mind this satisfactorily closes the DMS issue. If you're having DMS problems with your beer, it's getting in some other way, it's another unwanted flavour compound (there are literally hundreds of flavour compounds in beer) or it's all in your head.


----------



## Stuster

Excellent post Joel. Couldn't agree more.  

My research suggested exactly the same to me. If this problem is solved, we have only to convince the sceptics of the risk of bacterial contamination.

Now perhaps some of the critics could suggest how a sanitised closed container filled with boiled wort still above the pasteurisation temperature is a hot-bed of bacterial action.

The other problem that has been suggested was with cold break. As I mentioned in an earlier post, American breweries do not remove the cold break. How can we argue with what the big breweries do, eh?


----------



## MAH

Joel said:


> Basically, the upshot is the malt is the main contributor of DMS precursors into our beer. HOWEVER, (and this has been stated previously) most modern malt, and certainly all modern Australian malt, are specifiecally made to contain 4 ppb (parts per billion) DMS precursors. In laymans terms 4ppb = bugger all. This FACT, combined with a good long (uncovered) boil will remove approximately 70% to 80% of any DMS contributed to the wort by the malt.
> [post="116142"][/post]​




Hi Joel

I also did some reading and this basically corresponds with the information I Found. SMM, the DMS precursor, is very stable and only becomes DMS in any quantity at higher temps. Only about 25% of SMM in malt makes its way into the wort. When SMM is broken down it forms DMS and the amino acid homoserine. DMS is not water soluble and very volatile, hence its ability to be driven off during a good boil. At the end of a 90 minute boil 79% of DMS has been driven off. So post boil, there is only 21% left of the 25% of SMM that made it into your wort, to become DMS, and after it has cooled to below 80C the rate of DMS production reduces significantly, plus during fermentation, CO2 production will scrub some of the DMS that still remains in your wort. Conclusion - with modern, well modified malts, DMS is bugger all of a problem to the 20% of people who can actually taste it.

I agree totally that it now simply an issue of addressing the chance of infection.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Darren

MAH,
A couple of aged homebrewers dying from botulism "source unknown" wouldn't even "blip" on the American scale. Bear in mind the toxin is flavourlessThe anti-microbial effects of hops is certainly inhibitive to bacterial growth. Having said that, we all know bacteria easily confer resistance to anti-microbial agents such as antibiotics.
If you are to continually place hot wort into the same container and allow it to cool, you will quite effectively select for bacteria that will grow under those conditions. Stand up Mr Clostridium! (its lethal like AIDS too)

I agree you guys are doing something outside of the circle but you must be aware that there could be risk factors associated.
ESPECIALLY if you decide not to pitch the wort for a week or so (ie become even more slack and decide food science is a load of bollocks!)

Does low dose continual botulism poisoning improve your complexion? Could be a new beauty product. 8)

cheers
Darren

Anyhow


----------



## Andrew

What a thread.
I rarely post, happy to read though at the end of a hard day building a micro, but have to add my angle to this one.
Who out there had actually had an actual unquestionable undeniable attack of the DMS overload in their brewing? Own up. I have. Possibly there are other common factors between us that need looking into. For example the idea that Aussie malts carry less risk rings true in my experience. And other malts are not so good.
For me, its Kolsch. With this style there is nowhere to hide...
With my Kolsch the factor I believe I have fairly logically narrowed down to producing the massive DMS episodes was in using rather old Hoepfner pilsner malt. 
Anyone else?
Cheers


----------



## sah

Sorry for the late and repitious response to Darren's AIDS analogy (and sorry to rub it in Darren).

There has been a couple of comments on the mega breweries' quick cooling of wort. Yes it makes economic sense for them to cool quickly to free the kettle (or other vessel) but it goes further than this. I toured CUBs newish Queensland site late last year and the attractive female robot who was my host told me that the wort is cooled with water which is then fed into the hot liquor tank for the next batch. Very economical.

They also collect and compress the CO2 from the fermentors and reuse for carbonation.

Scott


----------



## dicko

Andrew said:


> What a thread.
> I rarely post, happy to read though at the end of a hard day building a micro, but have to add my angle to this one.
> Who out there had actually had an actual unquestionable undeniable attack of the DMS overload in their brewing? Own up. I have. Possibly there are other common factors between us that need looking into. For example the idea that Aussie malts carry less risk rings true in my experience. And other malts are not so good.
> For me, its Kolsch. With this style there is nowhere to hide...
> With my Kolsch the factor I believe I have fairly logically narrowed down to producing the massive DMS episodes was in using rather old Hoepfner pilsner malt.
> Anyone else?
> Cheers
> [post="116202"][/post]​



I hope the posts in this thread stay focussed (sp) on MAH's original post and over time, if results are positive will change the AG HB scene in Aus, especially if using Aus malts.
It may be shown that imported malts are ok with this method as well if all results are posted and recorded truthfully.
Andrew,
IMO your post has contributed true and accurate info, as has some others over the 15 pages and long term we may all benefit from this. 
It would be good to hear from some other Qualified brewers on this subject if the comments can be kept to the HB situation and not necessarilly include experiences in the micro/mega situations.

Thanks Andrew,


----------



## Kai

Andrew said:


> Who out there had actually had an actual unquestionable undeniable attack of the DMS overload in their brewing?



I haven't.



sah said:


> There has been a couple of comments on the mega breweries' quick cooling of wort. Yes it makes economic sense for them to cool quickly to free the kettle (or other vessel) but it goes further than this. I toured CUBs newish Queensland site late last year and the attractive female robot who was my host told me that the wort is cooled with water which is then fed into the hot liquor tank for the next batch. Very economical.
> 
> They also collect and compress the CO2 from the fermentors and reuse for carbonation.



Yeah, they're very clever at saving resources unlike some industries *cough*wine*cough*. From memory a good brewery uses around 6 litres of water per litre of beer produced.


----------



## Andrew

> I hope the posts in this thread stay focussed (sp) on MAH's original post ... ...comments can be kept to the HB situation and not necessarilly include experiences in the micro/mega situations.



Hey Dicko,
I'm getting keyboard lazy atm.
My comments were based on HB sized 2-keg batch sizes, not huge runs.
The point I'm clumsily trying to make is that if people have had DMS experiences, what have they put it down to and thus is there enough similarities occuring amongst people here to begin a data trail based on our combined community experience which points what not to do or use if people do want to use the no-chill method? (bloody hell what a long sentence!)
I think this has already begun a bit (eg Aus malts appear ok to use in this method), and still ties into MAH's original post.

And on another point, as we all know some tastes can either mask or accentuate others. I have a suspicion that tannin mistakes (eg oversparging with wrong temp/Ph water) makes DMS more noticeable. Experiences anyone?

Yours in ever expanding and sharing of knowledge...

Cheers


----------



## T.D.

But this is what I don't understand... If "they are spore forming organisms", and that makes them more likely to survive 99 Degree wort, then why aren't they absolutely crucifying everybody's 25 degree wort after they have chilled it with more conventional methods? Sure, the spores might be more inclined to survive boiling wort than "regular" bacteria, but surely 99 degree wort is a less favourable environment for any organism than 25 degree wort???

I still don't see how the no chill method can even slightly increase the infection risk (all things being equal).

Can somebody explain if I have missed something here???


----------



## Ray_Mills

Hi
You would have to have a real problem to get s bug in your wort drum if you clean it the same as your fermenter, you have a bigger chance of getting a bug when you cool it. 
Its very simple and i think Darren is being a little over the top with all this.
Cheer
Ray


----------



## Darren

mandrakar said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are to continually place hot wort into the same container and allow it to cool, you will quite effectively select for bacteria that will grow under those conditions. Stand up Mr Clostridium! (its lethal like AIDS too)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you not also be risking this if you used the same sanitisation method each time? You would be grooming for a bleach/Iodophor/Sodium Met bacterial resistance?
> 
> I guess the key is HOT wort. If the wort is packed into a cleaned and steralised container at above pasteurisation temps, then the total environment is sterile?
> 
> "Nothing comes of Nothing"
> King Lear
> 
> M
> [post="116677"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Bleach is a strong oxidising agent and would be extremely difficult to develop resistance too. Bleach isn't always acceptable , SSteel is one example.
Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C. (Not all bacteria produce spores) Added to this Clostridium sp. favour an oxygen deficient enviroment (anaerobic organisms), which you will have if the wort has just been boiled. Slowly cooled and stored wort is perfect for this particular bug which produces a flavourless toxin

That is the reason for canning of jams etc, you need heat and pressure to kill the spores.

cheers
Darren


----------



## crozdog

All this talk about infections, micro-organisms, bugs & resistance made me try to think outside the square. What i came up with is:

What about alcohol ie ethanol? Isn't it one of the best known bug killers / sterilisers? After all we use Isowipes or similar alcohol wipes to sterilise benches etc when we're making slants etc & I believe it has been used in medicine for ages.

Would the use of pure alcohol from the chemist work as part of a cyclic sanitising / sterilising regime? What about vodka?

Now if anyone had one of those stills you see in all the LHBS & happened to use it for producing alcohol for sterilisation of hot wort drums, I guess that would still be considered illicit / illegal by the authorities ..... not that I'd encourage that.... h34r: 

Crozdog


----------



## mongo

oh fer Pete's sake Darren. 

you said:
_"Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C."_

so you must be really concerned about infections in your kettle, as it can only get to 100deg C, and never sees any bleach. We are all going to die. 

Cmon Darren. Let it go.


----------



## markws

Lads,

As a person in the medical field I can tell you most homebrewers probably are cleaner in there brewing technique than what most laboratory scientific staff would be on a good day. 

I would not be concerned about clostridium bacteria in my wort, however good personal and equipment sanitation/cleaniness on your brew day will reduce the % of contamination to only a few percentage points. Combine this with a decent yeast pitch and it will drop to nothing. My only comment would be if personal contamination is a concern - buy some disposable gloves when you are doing your brew day - a couple of dollars may provide peace of mind! 

Really I think what most of people are trying to say on this thread is - here is an alternative to not using a chiller - there are some possible minor disadvantages (such as contamination) to the protocol however, it could definately add a lot of value to most peoples brewing practice. If you try it - take small steps.

Kind Regards

MWS


----------



## Darren

mongo said:


> oh fer Pete's sake Darren.
> 
> you said:
> _"Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C."_
> 
> so you must be really concerned about infections in your kettle, as it can only get to 100deg C, and never sees any bleach. We are all going to die.
> 
> Cmon Darren. Let it go.
> [post="116718"][/post]​




Mongo,No I am not. It is rapidly chilled and oxygenated and then fermented quickly. Alcohol presence protects it from then on.

cheers
Darren


----------



## T.D.

Darren said:


> mongo said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh fer Pete's sake Darren.
> 
> you said:
> _"Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C."_
> 
> so you must be really concerned about infections in your kettle, as it can only get to 100deg C, and never sees any bleach. We are all going to die.
> 
> Cmon Darren. Let it go.
> [post="116718"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mongo,No I am not. It is rapidly chilled and oxygenated and then fermented quickly. Alcohol presence protects it from then on.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116737"][/post]​
Click to expand...


I know Alcohol is an excellent bug inhibitor, but if it is _that_ much better than all of the sterilisers we are using in brewing, why don't we all just sterilise our fermenters and other equipment with ethanol??? This is all becoming a very circular argument. I am content with the no chiller method at this stage. If I grow an extra arm or leg (wouldn't be all bad  ) I'll consider going back to my immersion chiller. Until then, I think I'll bow out of this debate for a while. I don't think there is much to be gained from continually presenting all of our respective opinions on the method. One final comment though, it does strike me that all of the people who do not support this method are the same people who have never tried it. All of the people who do support it have tried it and are happy with the results. Doesn't that say it all? That is, unless these "bugs" are physiologically causing the human brain to become more optimistic and less discerning...


----------



## Darren

TD wrote
"I know Alcohol is an excellent bug inhibitor, but if it is _that_ much better than all of the sterilisers we are using in brewing, why don't we all just sterilise our fermenters and other equipment with ethanol??? "

That is quite simple. Ethanol attracts and excise (making it expensive) and is not a particularly good sanitiser.
What you guys are missing is that Clostridium species occupy a very specific "niche". This niche is very rare in food production. They thrive on lots of sugar, and no oxygen (just exactly what you are proposing as "cutting" edge of brewing science). 

They will not make your beer undrinkable as the toxin they produce is tasteless, so you won't feel inclined to pour it out. You just die two days later. 
Brewing isn't a new invention and you will probably find 2-300 years ago they found that wort stored without oxygen kills people. I guess history repeats is a catch cry. My only suggestion is that if you feel inclined not to pitch your yeast within a week and then decide to at a later date and you have pressure in the tank, just ditch it (or try it on the cat).

The reason that "botulism" doesn't occur in beer is because the presence of 2-5% alcohol that will inhibit growth.

Go on re-invent the wheel at your own peril. Any other microbiologists want to comment on this? 

cheers
darren


----------



## Gerard_M

Darren
Explain the success of the ESB Fresh Wort Kit. I haven't had any customers die yet, but having read your posts I feel I may need to take my suit to the dry cleaners!
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## tangent

OK let's walk a line down the middle:

YES - food safety is no laughing matter
YES - a home-made immersion chiller or ice bath is too easy for excuse! (i live in a flat, my parents don't let me use electricity, i went to Uni, i'm a fat f*^k, my religion excludes me from chilling anything...etc.)
YES - all-grain is easier than it sounds, what's the big deal!? People stupider than you with less gear are doing it every weekend!

OK, no middle ground so far.

edit - i think the effects of heating plastics past their safe levels and consuming the results could take more than a few days to see results. I can hear the bosses now "i've been working with asbestos for 2 years and never had a problem...." 

Basic food guidelines are given for a reason, as are plastics useage recommendations.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy

Darren said:


> Hey guys,
> Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
> Should save some time and cost too.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116863"][/post]​



Pfft, civil "engineering" and electrical *cough* "engineering"... you'll find that the statements you made about wires and tensile strength ring very true in those industries (except for Tony)...

Meanwhile, isn't homebrew sanitation all about paranoia? Can't we basically get away with just washing our stuff with clean water and still make good, clean, safe beer? Then we go sodium met or bleach pickle solution, don't breathe on the wort, use a CO2 blanket for any wort transfers, have a sprayer of sodium met solution handy, dip hands in sodium met solution, etc.

So now onto my point... don't we essentially expose ourselves to the same risk just by making homebrew, whether we chill it in 30 minutes or 3 days? Clostridium looks very serious - as DWS(?) said, just how likely is it to make it into our brews? I would say that if it wanted to be there, it would - whether we chill quickly or slowly. What about the yeast... would it not eat the clostridium? Or would the oxidation/aeration not essentially kill it all (through suffocation? )? 

I would still get the wort down to temp ASAP if I did the "no Steve" method, but I still think you're being slightly paranoid.

Last post...


Adrian


----------



## Kai

The last time I checked, HDPE is rated to withstand boiling temperatures with no ill-effect.

2-300 years ago I'll bet they discovered that stored wort spoiled long before giving them botulism.

I am still curious to know what botulinum's oxygen tolerance is and what the DO levels in wort in a cube are, because it's certainly not an oxygen free environment. I am also curious as to your opinion on how long it would take the bacteria to mutate enough to acquire resistance to hop antimicrobial compounds, and how likely it really is to survive in a well cleaned and sanitised vessel.

Overall, by my reckoning the odds of catching botulism from slow-cooled wort is approximately equal to a fart in a hurricane, and I haven't seen any real evidence to count against that.


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> That is the reason for canning of jams etc, you need heat and pressure to kill the spores.
> [post="116690"][/post]​



Oh no I can't believe I'm still alive. I've been eating my mums home made jam for 35 years and she hasn't taken the time to can it, then heat it under pressure. My negligent mother has only been boiling the jam, then adding it while still at pasturisation temperatures to sanitised jars (jars are sanitised by cleaning then boiling, which also helps to stop them cracking when the hot jam is added). Why does this sound surprisingly similar to the no-chiller method. And guess what, I haven't died from anaerobic bacteria toxins. Not bad considering I eat homemade jam or lemon curd almost every day.

In the US they often include the added step of boiling the filled jars in a pan of water. This is because they use specific types of jars where the lids allow for a vacum to form. The extra step of creating a vacum in the headspace helps prevent mould growth.

Neither method uses pressure.

Maybe we're not reinventing the wheel after all.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## apd

Darren said:


> Hey guys,
> Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
> Should save some time and cost too.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116863"][/post]​



Darren,

You really do love your over-the-top, off-the-mark analogies don't you!

Seriously though, with regard to Clostridium, not being a microbiologist I thought I'd do a little research. Some links:

wikipedia: Clostridium botulinum
A patent regarding hop extract used to prevent Clostrdium difficile growth
Butyric Acid Off-Flavors in Beer: Origins and Control (PDF)

Most of this stuff went over my head. Dry as all hell. As I said, I am not a microbiologist.

Neverthesless, Darren is right in saying that there is a risk of Clostridium infection as its spores are not killed by temperature. But Clostridium has to battle against good hygiene (which we all have, of course), the preservative nature of hops, temperature, and once the wort is fermenting the alcohol produced.

Hence the risk of infection of a "no-chill" wort, while still present - like the risk of AIDS or falling victim to dodgy electrical work  - is vastly reduce by environmental factors and good practice.

And again, as Gerard_M said, ESB has been doing this without any problems.


----------



## Uncle Fester

apd said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
> Should save some time and cost too.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116863"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren,
> 
> You really do love your over-the-top, off-the-mark analogies don't you!
> 
> Seriously though, with regard to Clostridium, not being a microbiologist I thought I'd do a little research. Some links:
> 
> wikipedia: Clostridium botulinum
> A patent regarding hop extract used to prevent Clostrdium difficile growth
> Butyric Acid Off-Flavors in Beer: Origins and Control (PDF)
> 
> Most of this stuff went over my head. Dry as all hell. As I said, I am not a microbiologist.
> 
> Neverthesless, Darren is right in saying that there is a risk of Clostridium infection as its spores are not killed by temperature. But Clostridium has to battle against good hygiene (which we all have, of course), the preservative nature of hops, temperature, and once the wort is fermenting the alcohol produced.
> 
> Hence the risk of infection of a "no-chill" wort, while still present - like the risk of AIDS or falling victim to dodgy electrical work  - is vastly reduce by environmental factors and good practice.
> 
> And again, as Gerard_M said, ESB has been doing this without any problems.
> [post="116929"][/post]​
Click to expand...


At risk of adding more fuel to this fire, the Wikipedia article does say that 25 mins @ 100 deg kills all of the strains listed (about 10 seconds for type E).

Further, fish is the greatest exponent of type E. Guess there are more that John West should reject?

M


----------



## Trough Lolly

FWIW, I believe the no chill method is fine, if you have good sanitary procedure under control in your brewroom - nothing new there, eh?! 

As an alternative strategy to cut down the length of the brewday, I did an overnight mash. I'm talking about steeping grains, husks and all, in water thats well below 70C....Does this mean I'm gonna croak it? Of course not, since I boiled the hell out of the resultant extract and used sanitary procedures that I've had for the last 10 years - with not one infection....  

After dinner Saturday night, I crushed the grains, fired up the HLT and doughed-in the mash - then it was off to the tele and a few beers...the next morning I sparged, boiled, chilled and was done and dusted before lunch....more beers! I will never brew until 3am again! I too have little kids and I have to grab the rare opportunity to brew with both hands!

One last thing - regardless of the somewhat theoretical assertions made in this thread, the fact is that the no-chill procedure works and that's not based on assertions, it's based on experience with ESB and home brewers...and that'll satisfy me enough to have a go. 

Otherwise, don't sweat it, give up and stick to drinking VB.... :blink: 

Cheers,
TL


----------



## apd

mandrakar said:


> At risk of adding more fuel to this fire, the Wikipedia article does say that 25 mins @ 100 deg kills all of the strains listed (about 10 seconds for type E).
> 
> Further, fish is the greatest exponent of type E. Guess there are more that John West should reject?
> 
> M
> [post="116940"][/post]​



M,

It kills the bug but not any spores. So, assuming there were spores in your wort to begin with you _might_ still get an infection.


----------



## RobW

This has been a fascinating thread which I've kept out of until now. I was a microbiologist in a former life and I don't have a problem with the no chill method if the usual sanitary precautions are taken. As far as I'm concerned the proof is in the practice. We know ESB successfully sell fresh wort kits and we don't know of any brewers who have died from beer infected with botulism or any other food poisoning organisms - period. Even though Clostridium botulinum is a fairly common environmental organism it is still a relatively uncommon pathogen in food and apparently unknown in beer. So I reckon we shouldn't get too hung up on the theoretical possibilities but be governed by what works in practice. 

Cold break? Well that's another story!


----------



## Kai

mandrakar said:


> At risk of adding more fuel to this fire, the Wikipedia article does say that 25 mins @ 100 deg kills all of the strains listed (about 10 seconds for type E).
> 
> Further, fish is the greatest exponent of type E. Guess there are more that John West should reject?
> 
> M
> [post="116940"][/post]​




Type E is easily killed. Types A and B, however, usually require around 1-3 minutes at 121.1C to reduce the spore numbers to a level considered safe. The way the thermal curves work, I doubt we achieve that at even 60 minutes at 100C. Although now I think of it, I ought to go look those values up again.

And when Darren mentioned jam, I'm sure it was just a mental slip on his part as I doubt he doesn't remember that botulinum does not grow in high acid foods and has difficulty in foods with low water activity too.


----------



## Darren

MAH said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the reason for canning of jams etc, you need heat and pressure to kill the spores.
> [post="116690"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no I can't believe I'm still alive. I've been eating my mums home made jam for 35 years and she hasn't taken the time to can it, then heat it under pressure. My negligent mother has only been boiling the jam, then adding it while still at pasturisation temperatures to sanitised jars (jars are sanitised by cleaning then boiling, which also helps to stop them cracking when the hot jam is added). Why does this sound surprisingly similar to the no-chiller method. And guess what, I haven't died from anaerobic bacteria toxins. Not bad considering I eat homemade jam or lemon curd almost every day.
> 
> 
> 
> Kai,
> Not a big jam maker myself but the one time I did make jam I didn't add acid. Sure, the fruit would add acidity but I presume most people make jam with over ripe fruit that is actually quite sweet.
> As for the lack of water, as you have probably googled, honey is the biggest cause of childhood botulism, suggesting that the bug will thrive in a high sugar/low water environment.
> 
> What you other guys are missing is not that I think the idea wont work. It is the storage of the product (without fermentation) that I suspect may cause some problem.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
Click to expand...


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> Kai,
> Not a big jam maker myself but the one time I did make jam I didn't add acid. Sure, the fruit would add acidity but I presume most people make jam with over ripe fruit that is actually quite sweet.
> As for the lack of water, as you have probably googled, honey is the biggest cause of childhood botulism, suggesting that the bug will thrive in a high sugar/low water environment.
> 
> What you other guys are missing is not that I think the idea wont work. It is the storage of the product (without fermentation) that I suspect may cause some problem.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="117281"][/post]​



Jam is not considered a risk for botulism and is considered a high acid food. It's a non-issue. [edit] even beer has a pH low enough to be out of C botulinum's growth range.

WRT the technique I don't think I missed your point at all. I just disagree with it.

PS Did you autoclave that jam?


----------



## Andyd

An update on the debate from the BasicBrewingRadio podcast...

So far two negatives have been highlighted, which we've spoken about here.

The first was James, who saif that his major concern was that the cooling wort would draw ambient air into the storage vessle, carrying nasties with it. He went on to point out that a completely sealed vessle would be difficult to open since as the wort cools down you'll get a pressure differencial.

The second spoke about the production of DMS continuing while the wort is warm, not just while it's boiling. I guess the question is how much gets produced out of the boil and re-dissolves into the wort. 

Hopefully there'll be more on this in coming weeks.

AndyD


----------



## Stuster

Andyd said:


> He went on to point out that a completely sealed vessle would be difficult to open since as the wort cools down you'll get a pressure differencial.
> [post="117341"][/post]​



Is that why I can't open my beer? Or my jar of jam?

No problems opening the ESB worts myself.

In terms of the DMS, I think the research we've all done shows that it shouldn't be an issue.

MAH's continuing survival, as Kai says, may be due to the high acidity of jam. From the FDA again.



> Acidic foods can be safely processed in a boiling-water canner because the combination of 212 F (100 C) heat and acidity will inactivate bacteria and spores. Some examples of high-acid foods include: all fruits (except figs), most tomatoes, jams, jellies, marmalades, fruit butters, and fermented and pickled (treated with brine or vinegar solution to inhibit the growth of microorganisms) vegetables, such as pickles and sauerkraut. Acidic foods (with a pH of 4.6 or lower) contain enough acidity to destroy bacteria more rapidly when heated.



Look, I think it's good that Darren has been wary of this method and has pointed out some possible dangers. It seems that practise has shown it to be effective. Overall, in Australia the risk seems small. From here



> This is only the fourth case of botulism in Australia since 1996. All cases have been in infants aged less than one year.



So to all you under-one-year-old brewers out there, the no-chill method is out for you, ok.


----------



## warrenlw63

In the United States on average 110 cases are reported a year.

Pretty safe odds given their population that's nearing 300 million.  

Warren -


----------



## Kai

They also have a fondness for canning things like black-eyed peas down south.


----------



## Ken Man Do

After reading 20 pages, I gotta add one thing. You can seal a sterile cooling vessel, yet eliminate the vacuum, by allowing filtered air into the headspace during cool-down. The vacuum is eliminated, as well as the anaerobic condition.


----------



## Stuster

> This is only the fourth case of botulism in Australia since 1996. All cases have been in infants aged less than one year.



Quoting my own quote rather worringly.  

I really think the botulism case is not that much of a problem for post-toddler brewers. Malt extract is not a suitable environment for botulism to grow in because of its high sugar content. I have read that over 50% sugar content inhibits botulism growth. Perhaps Kai/others could confirm that.


----------



## Darren

Stuster said:


> Malt extract is not a suitable environment for botulism to grow in because of its high sugar content. I have read that over 50% sugar content inhibits botulism growth. Perhaps Kai/others could confirm that.
> [post="122409"][/post]​




Stuster,
I would say they are pasteurised or at the very least they would invariably have mould growing on them. You are right that high concentrations (50%) of sugar would inhibit growth. 
Cooled wort certainly isn't 50% sugar either.
If it works for you great.


cheers
Darren


----------



## jayse

I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink: 

Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
Jayse


----------



## MAH

Stuster said:


> I have read that over 50% sugar content inhibits botulism growth. Perhaps Kai/others could confirm that.
> [post="122409"][/post]​



Not sure at what percentage the concentration of sugars inhibts botulism growth. 

Unprocesed honey is often a source of infant botulism. However in this isntance, it's the spores that survive, and make their way into the digestive tract of the infant, who does not yet have the acid levels high enough to destroy the spores, which then grow.



Cheers
MAH


----------



## Darren

jayse said:


> I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:
> 
> Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
> Jayse
> [post="122450"][/post]​


Do they have a clean room jayse?

cheers
Darren


----------



## jayse

Darren said:


> jayse said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:
> 
> Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
> Jayse
> [post="122450"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have a clean room jayse?
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="122480"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Theres nothing stopping someone from sneezing next to a open can waiting to be filled  but the lengths they go to too keep the joint pretty clean from top to bottom is quite extrodinary, its not done in a dedicated steril room or anything though. 

Born to booze.
Jayse


----------



## Darren

jayse said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jayse said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:
> 
> Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
> Jayse
> [post="122450"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have a clean room jayse?
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="122480"][/post]​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Theres nothing stopping someone from sneezing next to a open can waiting to be filled  but the lengths they go to too keep the joint pretty clean from top to bottom is quite extrodinary, its not done in a dedicated steril room or anything though.
> 
> Born to booze.
> Jayse
> [post="122483"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Jayse, is it positive pressure, negative pressure or a tin shed?


----------



## Stuster

MAH,

honey is implicated with infant botulism overseas but not in Australia.  

From Victorian gov. site



> Honey has been described in the US literature as a source of infection but never implicated in Australia and surveys of Australian honey have failed to identify C. botulinum.


----------



## jayse

Darren said:


> Jayse, is it positive pressure, negative pressure or a tin shed?
> [post="122488"][/post]​



I don't have any idea there but to hazzard a wild guess i'd say my common sense is telling me it would most likely be negative pressure. Don't really know at all how that side of things is set up though.

Boozed
Jayse


----------



## pint of lager

Members, this topic is very interesting, but rather long. To keep noise to a minimum and make the topic manageable, the humour has been deleted.

Pumpy, Ray Mills was certainly not the first to use the "no chill" method. In my brewing experience, GLS mentions it often on Craftbrewer and I am sure many brewers have used it prior. In a similar vein, Ross is not the first to use the shake and carbonate method of kegging, just one of many to use it successfully.

It is obvious that the "no chill" method can be used successfully, ESB has been using it for years, as have other brewers. So rather than everyone posting to the effect that they have tried it, keep the posts to discussing the pro's and con's of the technique. This way we can try and rein in the length of this topic.


----------



## Ken Man Do

In keeping with discussing the pros and cons, I have heard claims that there is a benefit to having trub in the fermenter. Some say it contributes in some way to the health of the yeast and fermentation.

So, though a clear wort might be "lovely", it might not be an ideal wort.


----------



## MHB

I have been following this thread with interest. The first thing I did was to grab all the books I could, they all say that a wort should/must be cooled as quickly as possible, there was little information on why. So I thought a summary of what information I could dredge up may be of assistance.

The pros all involve convenience.
The cons are for potential harm to the finished beer.

No one has argued that the no chiller method improves the quality of the wort and several concerns about the potential for harm have been touched on so:-

Microbiological:
There is the very real risk of infection, 5 years in retail and I know for a fact that some prepacked worts are infected. That the number of problems is so small it is a testament to the brewers and their hygiene standards.
Microbiological Bizarre: the ricks from really out there microbiological attacks (I.E. Botulism) appears remote, if it concerns you avoid this method.

Break Removal:
Hot break isnt an issue, if you follow good brewhouse practice and get complete separation of hot break and hop detritus. To the same standard as is required for wort that is going to be chilled, before transferring to a storage container.
Cold break again not an issue; the only people who have to worry about cold break are those using poorly modified or 6-row barley (USA). All the commercial packages I have seen have had some sediment, but not enough worry about.

Oxygen:
The presence of oxygen will degrade the wort. All care must be exercised to avoid hot side aeration of the wort. Using a filling tube that reaches to the bottom of the storage container, minimising head space and having a well closed container should help. Commercial versions are generally filled to capacity; the whole container sucks in as the wort cools.
Obviously the wort will require good aeration before the yeast is pitched.

DMS:
This is for me the big potential drawback, sensitivity to DMS is genetic, I am not highly sensitive to DMS but some people can detect remarkably small levels. To minimise the formation of DMS from its precursors it is important to get the temperature of the wort down from boiling to below 80C as quickly as possible.
As with cold break, levels of precursors in the grain play a major roll in how much of a problem this is likely to be, again we in Australia are blessed with grain that is going to give us the least problems. However if you are using European malts this could be a mater of concern especially for the production of paler Lagers and Pilsners. There are some good links earlier in this thread on DMS formation.
The Catch 22, to get down to a temperature where the formation of DMS is minimised, you loose the benefits of being above pasteurising heat. As the wort you are about to transfer is now highly infectable it cant be used to ensure sterility in the storage container. You cant think you are working to sanitary standards be certain.


If extreme care is taken with hygiene and oxygen exclusion, there are benefits in this method. There will be the odd infected batch but on the whole I for one dont see any serious impediments to the no chiller method being an asset to home brewers.

A bit of thought about the type of beer being produced and the ingredients used with this method will minimise any problems.

MHB


----------



## Gerard_M

AndrewQLD said:


> Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="123201"][/post]​



The ESB Fresh Wort Kits are filled straight from the kettle after a 20 minute whirlpool. The last few cubes that are filled tend to get a bit of trub in them, so they don't get sold. No pasturising or speed chilling.
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## AndrewQLD

Gerard_M said:


> AndrewQLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="123201"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ESB Fresh Wort Kits are filled straight from the kettle after a 20 minute whirlpool. The last few cubes that are filled tend to get a bit of trub in them, so they don't get sold. No pasturising or speed chilling.
> Cheers
> Gerard
> [post="123500"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Thanks Gerard,
cleared up that nicely, do you know what the temp is after 20 min whirlpool? is it cool enough to give a little cold break in the kettle?
Correct me please but I think cold break starts around 70c, but not very effectively?

Thanks for the info
Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Ken Man Do

Hey Darren, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.

But it's possible that whatever amount of oxygen makes it into the wort pre-ferment is a good thing. That's why we aerate/oxygenate, right?

I have no idea if it would be a problem to let it sit unfermenting for any extended length of time, though.

And must I have that offensive "Amateur Brewer" under my name? <_<


----------



## Steve Lacey

I was talking to a professional brewer about this on the weekend and he made a couple of contradictory points. On the one hand he said well, in the old days when they used coolships it would have still taken 24 hours for wort to cool, so the method is at least on a par with that.

On the other hand he reckoned that without rapid cooling there will not be a good cold break and that the beer won't drop bright (not consistent with people's observations).

One other point he made was that there will still be some certain enzymes in the boiled wort that are active only in the range of about 40 degrees C. He said what they do is convert some of the maltose into sugars that provide sweetness but are not digestible (a bit like some low-cal sweeteners). So as the wort takes a while to get through that temp range, some of the maltose will change into these sugars and you will get a slightly sweeter but slightly less malty beer (because the sugars are not metabollised by yeast).

Well, that's just what he said and it sounds plausible in theory, but whether it makes any practical difference, I don't know. It would take a fairly careful bit of controlled brewing to really find out. Can anybody who has been trying this method say that their beer is sweeter than they might have otherwise expected?

Steve


----------



## Thommo

I could be wrong on this but my understanding was that as the temperature was increased, different enzymes came into effect, before being destroyed at higher temperatures. Therefore, after a boil, the enzymes would have already been destroyed and thus have no effect as the wort cooled.

Not 100% sure though.


----------



## Steve Lacey

Thommo said:


> I could be wrong on this but my understanding was that as the temperature was increased, different enzymes came into effect, before being destroyed at higher temperatures. Therefore, after a boil, the enzymes would have already been destroyed and thus have no effect as the wort cooled.
> 
> Not 100% sure though.



OK, let me stress, I am pretty sure he was not referring to conventional alpha and beta amylase enzymes, but some other buggers. He said they are only active at a certain temperature (in the 40s)...I also want to emphasize that I am not putting this up as some kind of gospel, but rather as hearsay that I would like to see tested against experience. The guy seemed generally knowledgeable, he was a pro after all, but was surprisingly ignorant of one or two things that he should have known...so I am not prepared to take his word completely at face value. He wasn't talking about regular mash enzymes or regular starch conversion though.


----------



## Ray_Mills

Hi
Well i had to test the biggest concern with this method in one of my batches i brewed 8 weeks ago. One brew day i intended to make a blond Ale to test some hopping concerns for Scottys NNL batches. The brew day did not end up as planned as some huge rat from the creek ate through my huge plastic container and got stuck into my last 3kg of Pilsener malt. I hade some wheat to use so i made a 50% ale malt and 50% wheat malt beer with a few other malts like carapils and a little carahell.
I thought this will test the clarity concerns some technical brewers were cumming up with. Left the beer in the wort for 5 weeks and fermented the beer on a lager yeast for 3 weeks and kegged.
The beer was in the keg for 4 days so it did not have much time to clear. Being 50% Wheat i did not mind, but after 4 days of drinking it and runnings from the last 25% of the keg it was a very clear and it did supprise me.
So my theory is the no chill does not effect the clarity of the beer. Maybe it has to do with todays well modified malts, who knows.
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Darren

Ray_Mills said:


> Darren
> this method eliminated my infection problem.
> Ray




Why do you think that is so Ray?
You were making test runs with Scottys NNL batches with an infection problem?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Ray_Mills

Darren said:


> Ray_Mills said:
> 
> 
> 
> Darren
> this method eliminated my infection problem.
> Ray
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think that is so Ray?
> You were making test runs with Scottys NNL batches with an infection problem?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
Click to expand...


Hi
This may sound strange to a lot of you but its TRUE.
I have a backyard full of trees, for those that have been to my funny house they will back it up.
Well i had a tree that was weeping all this stuff around the yard (the yard did not get much sun) and where it landed on anything in the yard wild yeast would ferment it. This is true and a fine example was my blue tradsman trailer went from blue to black. You had to really scrub this stuff off everything in the yard that was there for just a short period. The stuff was sticky just like leaving some malt out and let it run wild.
All this was in my brewing area and it really became impossible to brew or ferment. Now this took 9 months to find out why every mash batch after batch was being infected. (luck i have patience)
I could not do tests anywhere to find out where the onfections were coming from. 
It took that 9 months period to find out it was when the wort was cooling there was so much wild yeast about living from this tree it got into my beer before my yeast did and i was about to call it quits till i got rid of the tree.
After big brew day in 2004 and we all racked into a drum it solved my problem. 
The tree has gone and my infections have gone and things are back to normal. The water restrictions have changed my brewing as well.
Cheers
Ray


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## PostModern

Ray_Mills said:


> The water restrictions have changed my brewing as well.



The water you're saving, my DH of a neighbour is spraying all over his 1/4 acre of lawn every Wed and Sunday night.


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## Darren

Thanks Ray,
I agree that water restrictions would be a good reason to no-chill.
Double use of the warm chilling water would also be an option.
The tree sounds like a nightmare. Glad you got rid of it and solved your problems.

cheers

Darren


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## Beerpig

Ray

What sort of tree was it?

Cheers


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## Ray_Mills

Beerpig said:


> Ray
> 
> What sort of tree was it?
> 
> Cheers



A Fuc..................................ing nitemare tree. Other than that the big kiwi guy how got it down with some others mentioned it had a unusal Disease he had only come accross a few times in 10 years of cutting down tress.
Typical it had to be in my brewery 
Cheers
Ray


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## shonky

Cheers TD, I have waded through most of the 25 odd pages at some point. I must have missed your post.

Cheers for the feedback, and yours MAH, makes me feel more comfortable.

Still in two minds though.

Should I experiment on this most important of batches. My brain ramblings are going somthing like this:

1. Have the fridge space now to ferment both batches temp controlled.
2. Want to cold pitch, slurry only from 4lt starter - not enough for 80+ Lt
3. Would prefer to get beer out of fermenters and into cubes ASAP as lagering space will then be the next challenge
4. Have one saflager 34/70 dried yeast.

I've broken this down to 4 options

1. Split yeast slurry into two and pitch both on Sun
2. Make yeast starter (say 3lt) out of saflager tonight, pitch to 2nd batch on Sun
3. Make yeast starter out of some (how much) fermenting wort from exiting starter (scaled up yesterday currently at Krausen) and pitch no Sun
4. No-chill, start another starter on Sun after pitching majority of current one, step it up over two weeks and pitch then

Aggghh it's too hard, to make matters worse I've got no beer on tap, so I can't just sink a few and forget about it. My head hurts :blink: 

Normally would just suck it and see but this is one beer I want to shine!

I need to make the decision in the next 1hr due to other commitments.

Anyone help? Pllllleeeeaaassee........


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## Jye

I will be fermenting my first no chill beer today and was surprised to see the amount of trub in the bottom... I did add 90g of Amarillo to the cube but I still think this is a lot :blink:


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## dicko

Jye said:


> I will be fermenting my first no chill beer today and was surprised to see the amount of trub in the bottom... I did add 90g of Amarillo to the cube but I still think this is a lot :blink:
> 
> View attachment 7548



Hi Jye,
I noted the same thing when I experimented with the NCM.
I first tried to rack the beer to the fermenter and leave that cold break behind, but that was almost impossible as it (the cold break) is very light and it seems to run into the fermenter from the tap anyway.
I realised that to try to leave this trub behind I would be wasting a lot of beer so I adopted the "what the heck" attitude with the next one and I just tipped the lot into the fermenter.
Both beers fermented out perfectly and the 2112 yeast dropped extremely bright in the cube after a cc period in the fridge of 3 to 4 weeks.
The 1056 was not quite as bright but cleared well. This result was to be expected from these respective yeast strains.
The third brew of my experiment was back to 2112 and it was fine as well. 
I noticed no detrimental flavours or any problems at all with the three brews and although I have used my cfwc for the following two brews I will be using that method again as necessary.
From what I am led to believe, the cold break still ends up in the fermenter if you use a CFWC so in my limited experience it doesn't matter.
It will be your choice as to leave the trub behind but IMO it is not worth worrying about.
Cheers


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## lonte

I've read through first 15 pages of this and hope what I say now isn't covered in the second 15 pages.

My interest in this has grown as before my next brew day on 18 June Brisbane gets Level 3 water restrictions. Gotta do something about my IC water wastage.

Some questions:

1) Is the stored hopped wort likely to suffer from light strike? If so, it would be best to cover the cubes or even use black rather than white ones.
2) Will the colour of the cube affect the cooling time? Black cars in the sun are hotter than white cars - would a black cube keep more heat than a white one, or even give more heat off and so cool quicker? Thoughts?
3) Since the cubes are sealed, this method might also bring into play all the "old" cooling methods for fermenters like the damp towel and electric fan, etc.

Very interested in thoughts on the cube color, if relevant at all.

On on, Lonte.


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## bigfridge

dicko said:


> From what I am led to believe, the cold break still ends up in the fermenter if you use a CFWC so in my limited experience it doesn't matter.



This is very true and large commercial breweries do remove the cold break by bubbling sterile air thought the wort and skimming the scum that forms.

Smaller breweries don't worry about it as most is carried up in the yeast/foam head and sticks to the sides of the fermenter - above the tide line. 

Either way we have nothing much to worry about.

David


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## Jye

lonte said:


> 1) Is the stored hopped wort likely to suffer from light strike? If so, it would be best to cover the cubes or even use black rather than white ones.



Hey lonte, Im not sure but it would be best to keep it out of direct sunlight, maybe after a day in a cool spot move it to a cupboard until your ready to pitch.



lonte said:


> 2) Will the colour of the cube affect the cooling time? Black cars in the sun are hotter than white cars - would a black cube keep more heat than a white one, or even give more heat off and so cool quicker? Thoughts?
> 3) Since the cubes are sealed, this method might also bring into play all the "old" cooling methods for fermenters like the damp towel and electric fan, etc.



A lot of people are brewing and pitching a week or two later so the speed of cooling doesnt matter but by the sounds of it this is your first all grain and you want to pitch ASAP. If that so then yes all the old methods could be used to cool and I think the colour of the cube will have minimal/zero effect. A first brew day can be pretty long so the wort may not be cool enough to pitch using these methods before its time for bed. Its been pretty cold in Brisbane lately so leaving it outside over night will have it at pitching temps by the morning.

Good luck with the brew day :super: 

Cheers
Jye :beer:


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## JasonY

As we all know there are many factors which affect the final quality of a brew so the observations below are exactly that, observations on a split batch.

*brew*
House Pilsner which is one of my favourites. 96.5% Weyermann Pils, 3.5% Acidulated Malt, Wyeast 2247 European Lager, SaazB bittering, flavour & aromoa (24IBU). Brewed 43L on 02-Apr-2006, first 20L where chilled via CFWC as per usual with the remainder of the batch sent to a jerry can. Jerry was left at Perth ambient temp for 24hrs.

1.5L yeast starter was pitched 8hrs later after shilled wort was at 13degC, jerry was squeezed into ferment fridge fridge as well. Primary ferment of chilled beer for 12days, racked to keg. No-Chill beer was dumped onto yeast cake, allowed to ferment for about 12 days then kegged. 

Basically I drank the chilled sucker after 4 weeks of conditioning as I was thirsty  bt I saved a couple of pints for comparison. Pic below:




Chilled beer is on the left, now it looks like the no-chill is a little clearer but they are the same, both very clear.

*Result*
I was expecting them to be extremely similar, how wrong I was. :huh: 

The aroma of the chilled beer was much hoppier than the no-chill one! Upon tasting it was like chalk and cheese to coin a term. The chilled pils was much fresher and hopier than the no chill. I can't really explain it and perhaps somehting else is at play but to my palete the chilled beer was by far superior to the no chilled one. From memor the no-chilled beer was initially hoppy but dryed out quicky to its present state (still a nice drop). But if I had to pick one it would be a no brainer, I would be going for the chilled one.

Didn't expect such a clear result but there you go. Who knows if it was down to the chill/no-chill part but given that I CFWC I dont think I will use this method again as it does not really save me any time. :beer:


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## hupnupnee

Could the difference be in the age of the two brews??


Tim


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## JasonY

hupnupnee said:


> Could the difference be in the age of the two brews??
> 
> 
> Tim



Well lets remember that the wort is from the same batch so the age is identical, only difference is that the chilled wort was fermented 2weeks prior to the no-chilled one.


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## Stoodoo

JasonY, interesting observations. I guess that with the no chiller beer, some of the hops flavour and aroma may have been driven off while the wort is still rather hot. However, by pitching fresh yeast into the chilled wort, and by pitching the no chiller wort onto this aged yeast cake, I don't believe it could have been a very accurate comparison. Though I stand to be corrected.

Cheers


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## bindi

I have had little or no difference with a couple of double batches split the same way, the no chill was a little clearer , mind you they were ALES and not Pilsner and the were stored no more then a week waiting for fridge space AND I pitched fresh ALE yeast and both dry hopped.
So for Ales the no chill is a winner for me, yet to try a Pilsner/Lager no chill.


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## JasonY

I can't say I will put the difference down to the no-chill completely as the things i would have thought to be affected were not the main ones.

The yeast regime was certainly different, if anything the chilled one was probably underpictched while the no-chill one had a nice healthy yeat cake (perhaps overpitched). Perhaps a more vigorous ferment drove the hop aromas out?

In terms of comparisons its about as accurate as I will be bothering as I don't have room to ferment tow lagers (hence the trial using a split batch). Next time I may repeat what i did but just store chilled wort.

Anyway this is only onw comparison and as Bindi said he has not noticed the same differences so I would not call this conclusive at all.


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## colinw

I'd say the difference between the chilled and no-chilled batches was some degradation of the wort (particularly the volatile hop aromatics) due to oxidation during the long storage.

Unless you can contrive to store the "no chill" wort under a blanket of CO2 or Nitrogen, in my opinion some loss of quality is inevitable.


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## Finite

JasonY,

Are you saying that you stored the no chill beer for 2 weeks before pitching then added it to the yeast bed of the chilled beer?

I cant see how that would be an acurate experiment as aside from storing the no chill beer for 2 weeks you have also added the no chill brew to protiens, and dead yeast which was in the trub from the previous batch.


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## JasonY

Finite said:


> JasonY,
> 
> Are you saying that you stored the no chill beer for 2 weeks before pitching then added it to the yeast bed of the chilled beer?
> 
> I cant see how that would be an acurate experiment as aside from storing the no chill beer for 2 weeks you have also added the no chill brew to protiens, and dead yeast which was in the trub from the previous batch.



Yep spot on. There is only so far I was ever going to go in trying to provide exact conditions for each brew because I simply dont have room to ferment two lagers simultaneously. The stored no chill wort was kept at 13degC for the duration (except for the slow chill at ambient overnight).

Who knows, perhaps the outcome would have been the same regardless of chilling technique, perhaps it says something about pitching onto a yeast cake. I am just reporting on what was as close a comparison as I am ever likely to do.

Regardless I think leaving wort around for two weeks or longer as others have said is probably not a good idea.


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## lucas

is anyone doing this who doesnt have a tap on their boiler? if so, how are you starting your syphon? I can't imagine the sucking method would be at all safe with boiling hot wort and steam coming through the tube.


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## warrenlw63

Lucas

If you're worried about 3rd degree burns on your lips maybe fill the siphon hose with water, block both ends with your fingers, keep the ends even. Drop one end in your wort, let it run to a jug to get rid of the water then carefully direct to your cubes to avoid splashing. With care the siphon will continue.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy

lucas said:


> is anyone doing this who doesnt have a tap on their boiler? if so, how are you starting your syphon? I can't imagine the sucking method would be at all safe with boiling hot wort and steam coming through the tube.


I have a Stainless Steel U-tube which reaches to the bottom of the kettle, just above the trub level.
Connected to it is a thick silicone hose. I hold the hose-end level with the top of the kettle and place a clean tea-towel over the end of the hose. By sucking, I fill the hose (mostly) with hot wort and then place the hose end in the cube. Easy!

Seth's tip # 12


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## Aussie Claret

I did a no chill over the weekend and added some extra dry hops to the cube for extra flavour aroma (whilst at close to boiling). I removed the wort whilst still close to boiling and added 30g from memory to the cube.

I didn't think of this previously but the cube remained very hot for over a 24 hour period and I think that the dry hopping has added alot more bitterness than I was expecting, also the aroma and flavour is alot less than expected.

JYE - I'd be interest to hear how you went with the 90g of Amarillo that you added, did this contribute to extra bitterness? And what was the aroma and flavour like, more or less than expected?

I had about 2-3 inches of break material and hops in the bottom of the cube, when I siphoned out the wort to the fermenter it was the cleanest and brightest I have seen just as clear as finished beer.

Has anyone else noticed flavour, bitterness issue when adding dry hops to the no chill ?

Thanks
AC


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## Jye

Aussie Claret said:


> JYE - I'd be interest to hear how you went with the 90g of Amarillo that you added, did this contribute to extra bitterness? And what was the aroma and flavour like, more or less than expected?



AC, I dont know if it added any extra bitterness since it was an AIPA over 100 IBUs. Some flavour and aroma was added but it was a great disappointment, it would have been more worth while adding it to the boil or dry hopping. I wont be doing it again.


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## MAH

Aussie Claret said:


> Has anyone else noticed flavour, bitterness issue when adding dry hops to the no chill ?



Adding hops to a no-chill beer that is still hot will not be the equivalent to dry-hopping and is basically a flame out addition kettle hops.

Dry hops is added to cooled beer and the fact that it's chilled means that it doesn't readily disolve hop oil, alpha acids etc. Tru dry hopping will give a completely different flavour and aroma impact to kettle hops.

When hops are added to hot wort they readily give up their oils etc, including alpha acids. The alpha acids are isomerised iso-alpha acids, which gives the beer its bitterness. It was believed that for isomerisation to occur you need heat plus agitation, hence a rolling boil. Latest studies have show that isomerisation is a first order reaction and only needs heat to occur (activation energy is 98.6kj per mole - no idea what temp this translate to). However agitation is still need if using plugs or flowers as with pellets they are already much more broken up and the lupin glands have already been burst by the processing making the alpha acids more accessible, unlike plugs and flowers.

So yes there will be some isomerisation of the alpha acids whn added to the hot wort. If you use pellets it will be more pronounced and the hotter the wort the more pronounced. However having said all this, it is likely to be only a slightly increase in bitterness. Remember the same principle applies to brewers who use plate or CFC chillers, where their wort can sit hot with late additions, before it is chilled. If you use a CFC and are used to the impact of late additions, adding hops to the no-chill cube is likely to have a similar result. If you are used to an imersion chiller, you will have to make some adjustments. Or simply use a hop bag/sock and remove all your hops after the desired length of time, then siphon into the cube.

Cheers
MAH


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