# European Larger Advice Requested



## MattC8 (23/8/10)

Hello All,
I recently purchased a two cans of Coopers European Larger from the local Coles going cheap. I intend to make two brews, one per the recipe on the can, and a second more complicated/advanced version. I have the recommended Coopers Brew Enhancer 2 also, but was looking for advice about different options than just using those on the can (EL, BE2, 23 L Water).

I should point out that I am new to brewing, but would like to move into more complex techniques than just using the instructions on the can. I was wondering if people could give me some advice on how to improve this kit (simple advice only please, As I said, I'm new to brewing). I was thinking of adding some hops (just teabags, not boiling my own additions yet) or using a speciality yeast (or both).

Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## felten (23/8/10)

Did you know if you type larger into google, the first result is the lager page on wikipedia?

edit: guess I should add something useful, is the euro lager tin the one that comes with a real lager yeast?


----------



## Brewman_ (23/8/10)

I was not aware any coopers kit had a true lager yeast. would be interested to know which one(s) that is and the yeast strain?

here is what I would do inside your current process, and you want to keep things simple.

Check the yeast, and get a true lager yeast, a dry yeast satchel will be fine. You will need to get that at you home brew store.
use the BE2 in addition to the can.
Get a 2 x 12g tea bags of hops. A german noble hop - Hallertau, Hershbrucker or Cascade would be nice.
Steep one hop tea bag for 5 to 10 mins when preparing you wort.
Add the second tea bag directly to your fermenter when your Specific gravity neers completion, say at 1014. ( would expect this recipe to finish out at 1007 to 1009. depening on yeast.
If you get the true lager yeats, keep fermentation temps as close and as stable as possible at between 12 to 14 deg.C, again this depends on the yeast and you coul dgo lower, but in thi srange you should get a reasonable result in a reasonable time frame. If you don't have temperature control just do your best to keep it cool.



fear_n_loath.


----------



## keifer33 (23/8/10)

Indeed the Euro Lager kit is the only one with a proper lager yeast. This is the excerpt from the Coopers Forum which I reference. The supplied yeast is actually quite good and should be fine to use.



> The following explains the ink-jetted code on the yeast sachets, supplied with each beer kit:
> 
> Sachets carry a Julian date code and may also carry letters to denote the type of yeast. For example, if they were packaged on the 25th of September 2007 = 268th day of 2007:
> 
> ...


----------



## kelbygreen (23/8/10)

I would use 250-500g of pale crystal steeped in 1-2 lts of of 60-70c water for 30mins then drain the liquid into a pot leave behind the grain by using a grain bag or a really fine seive. Then put grain back into container and rinse with 60-70c water then pour into pot leaving the grain behind. 

I would then boil that for at least 30 mins I would also get about 20g of something like saaz and throw that in with 20mins left.

If you used a total of 4lts steeping the grain use about 350g of the be2 in the boil add just before it reaches the boil then the last 5mins of the boil tip the rest of the be2 in to disovle it. i would take off heat and put in a sink of water to cool quickly.

its not hard to boil hops its harder to steep grain id say


----------



## mwd (23/8/10)

I would not bother wasting time dicking around just make a 'Toucan' and dryhop 25g of a favoured hop for aroma. Dead easy and a nice drop minimum effort.


----------



## bignath (23/8/10)

I just bottle this last night.

European Lager
22 Litres

1.7kg Euorpean Lager can
1kg Liquid Malt Extract (didn't have anything else so i used Saunders Malt Extract)
300g Carapils (steeped at 65-70 degrees for 30mins)
200g Dextrose 
15g Pride Of Ringwood AA 10% (30 mins boil)
10g Pride Of Ringwood AA 10% added before closing lid on fermenter. Topped up fermenter, boiled some water in kettle, added hops to 500ml of it, stirred to break up hops, and added to fermenter. Pitched yeast.

Packet yeast supplied (lager strain)

Fermented at 12deg for 14 days
Cold conditioned at 1deg for 5 days
Added 2 tsp Gelatine to 250ml hot water into secondary and racked on top
Back into Cold condition fridge at 1 degree for 2 days
Bulk primed and bottled.

I have used the Euro lager before and didn't like the results, but i have a feeling i used to ferment this at around 18 degrees before i found out it was a lager strain yeast supplied. Got a lot of bacon flavours, weird....
Didn't have much hope for this brew, (hence using the saunders malt extract) but thought "what the hell".

Result is a beautiful tasting beer, easy to drink like most decent lagers. Will definitely be doing this one again.


Definitely agree that steeping grain is much harder/time consuming than boiling and adding hops.

cheers,
big nath


----------



## rendo (23/8/10)

YES...brewed it many times. It is a real larger lager yeast



felten said:


> edit: guess I should add something useful, is the euro lager tin the one that comes with a real lager yeast?


----------



## rendo (23/8/10)

Matt....I can help you here. I have been thru the EXACT same situation, same kits, same intent etc etc....just that I have the kids to take to bed..  will hopefully fire off a reply to you 2nite....In the meantime have a read of this for some ideas....(but I'll keep it simple for you....for now)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=616066

rendo





MattC8 said:


> Hello All,
> I recently purchased a two cans of Coopers European Larger from the local Coles going cheap. I intend to make two brews, one per the recipe on the can, and a second more complicated/advanced version. I have the recommended Coopers Brew Enhancer 2 also, but was looking for advice about different options than just using those on the can (EL, BE2, 23 L Water).
> 
> I should point out that I am new to brewing, but would like to move into more complex techniques than just using the instructions on the can. I was wondering if people could give me some advice on how to improve this kit (simple advice only please, As I said, I'm new to brewing). I was thinking of adding some hops (just teabags, not boiling my own additions yet) or using a speciality yeast (or both).
> ...


----------



## tcraig20 (23/8/10)

One of the best kits I ever made was a coopers euro kit. 

It ran something along the lines of the kit, 500g ldme, 250g dex, 300g steeped weyermann carahell, 10g saaz and 10g hallertau @ 30 min, 10g saaz and 10g hallertau @5 min, S-189 yeast. 

I think that the coopers lager yeast in the kit is only a lager yeast after a fashion: it is a blend of ale and lager yeast designed to produce a lager-like beer with a wider temperature tolerance (happy to be corrected on this though).


----------



## bum (23/8/10)

felten said:


> Did you know if you type larger into google, the first result is the lager page on wikipedia?


You're a bad man. I actually checked this, ready for my mind to be blown, and it turned out to be false.  Shenanigans!



JamesCraig said:


> I think that the coopers lager yeast in the kit is only a lager yeast after a fashion: it is a blend of ale and lager yeast designed to produce a lager-like beer with a wider temperature tolerance (happy to be corrected on this though).


I think Keifer33's post above has correct information and shows which kits have a blend of ale/lager yeasts and which have genuine (not necessarily "amazing") lager yeasts. At the very least it does confirm what I have read previously from other sources.


----------



## rendo (24/8/10)

Okay....kids asleep....chores done, emails sorted...i got a few mins before I run off to blanket bay, lets see what I can quickly bash out. If you see more cheap cheap kits @ coles then get some coopers canadian blonde kits (check the exp date...try to get ones that exp in 2012, fresher is best)...its a great kit to start experimenting with, so is euro lager. The euro kit does come with a lager yeast which is more finicky with temp and not as forgiving as the ale yeast with the canadian blonde. Canadian blonde kits can make the best fake lagers  Given that warmer temps are coming you would want to get the lager kits brewing now...dont brew them in summer. I did that once. first and last time for everything! 

So...if you are still wondering, a real lager yeast prefers to ferment around 10-12 degrees to produce a real clean crisp lager void of off flavours etc (there is so much more to this statement, but I am keeping it basic) Where as Ale yeasts ferment best around 18-20deg. Alot of the guys here, including me, use a fridge to brew in, which is controlled by a $30-$40 digital thermostat. Best investment in making good beer EVER! Great on so many levels. So...as I said before if you want to brew the euro lagers at their best then get them brewing now. Do one now, keep it in a cool spot, preferrably where there isnt wild temp fluctuations...it will prob need to brew for about 2-4 weeks, dont rush it....BIG MISTAKE...Use your hydrometer to tell you when its finished fermenting, airlocks are useless & misleading. Wait till it finishes fermenting...I'd guess 10-15 days then give it another week to rest in the fermenter, then bottle. Use coopers carb drops or your usual carb method, eg sugar/dex. Whilst fermenting your first, use that time to research what you want to do with your second brew.

Then do the other right away once the first is finished, it'll be warming up by then, but she'll be right mate...just dont brew lager nov-mar unless u have temp control....(these statements again are sweeping generalisations) What state/area are you in? (re: temps..eg darwin = hot/screwed, tassie = cold...sweeet)

I like your somewhat scientific/controlled approach to try the basic kit then experiement from there, so you have a base to compare against. Brewing is a never ending journey of learning. I'd recommend that you do, as you suggest, your first kit with the standard BE2, brew, wait 4-8 weeks and it should be good drinking...ready for the warmer months. There is heaps of things you could do, but its all about learning and know what each ingredient does. I went from straight kits with sugar, to dextrose instead of sugar, to using hop tea bags, then using dry malt extract instead of dex, then using hop pellets, its a slippery slope to spec grains and partial BIABing which is what I am doing now then maybe to full AG one day...anyway....kit, BE2 for your first brew...if you really want then chuck in 500g of Light Dry Malt to give it a bit more body/fill it out a bit...worth the spend..esp if you get a discounted one at the local coles clearing out coopers stock.

Anyway, I tried not to change too many things between brews, so that way you know what effect each ingredient has on your beer. With your next beer do some research into what hops you like. Eg read up on what commercial beers you like and what hops they use. Then make a choice and go buy a hop tea bag or two. To keep it simple here is what I recommend, two hop tea bags per brew. Boil some water in a normal kettle, get a clean mug, put the hop tea bag in and fill the mug with boiling water. Leave this for 10-15mins and chuck the lot (tea bag and all....oh not the mug) into the brew. With the second tea bag, once you have added your yeast and are about to seal up the fermenter then just drop the second tea bag in the fermenter. The first tea bag will add more flavour to your brew, maybe a TAD more bitterness, and the second tea bag will add a wonderful aroma with maybe a bit of extra flavour too. Your choice of hops is up to you....POR (pride of ringwood) for that real familiar aussie lager taste (search for POR here) or something more euro would be hallertau, saaz, tettnager(sp?), where as something more american would be cascade....cascade and saaz make a wonderful combo.

After this you can then start looking into using other yeasts, it will also be nearly summer so you will have to get away from the lager yeasts, thats where those canadian blonde kits i mentioned will come in handy....start experimenting and searching here, you will get into more advanced techniques in time, eg get into using hop pellets...they are great, use more malt than sugar/dex......steep some carapils to add great head retention, its a slippery slope  . This site is a gem.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you do 



Rendo






MattC8 said:


> Hello All,
> I recently purchased a two cans of Coopers European Larger from the local Coles going cheap. I intend to make two brews, one per the recipe on the can, and a second more complicated/advanced version. I have the recommended Coopers Brew Enhancer 2 also, but was looking for advice about different options than just using those on the can (EL, BE2, 23 L Water).
> 
> I should point out that I am new to brewing, but would like to move into more complex techniques than just using the instructions on the can. I was wondering if people could give me some advice on how to improve this kit (simple advice only please, As I said, I'm new to brewing). I was thinking of adding some hops (just teabags, not boiling my own additions yet) or using a speciality yeast (or both).
> ...


----------



## Swordsman (24/8/10)

rendo said:


> Okay....kids asleep....chores done, emails sorted...i got a few mins before I run off to blanket bay, lets see what I can quickly bash out. If you see more cheap cheap kits @ coles then get some coopers canadian blonde kits (check the exp date...try to get ones that exp in 2012, fresher is best)...its a great kit to start experimenting with, so is euro lager. The euro kit does come with a lager yeast which is more finicky with temp and not as forgiving as the ale yeast with the canadian blonde. Canadian blonde kits can make the best fake lagers  Given that warmer temps are coming you would want to get the lager kits brewing now...dont brew them in summer. I did that once. first and last time for everything!
> 
> So...if you are still wondering, a real lager yeast prefers to ferment around 10-12 degrees to produce a real clean crisp lager void of off flavours etc (there is so much more to this statement, but I am keeping it basic) Where as Ale yeasts ferment best around 18-20deg. Alot of the guys here, including me, use a fridge to brew in, which is controlled by a $30-$40 digital thermostat. Best investment in making good beer EVER! Great on so many levels. So...as I said before if you want to brew the euro lagers at their best then get them brewing now. Do one now, keep it in a cool spot, preferrably where there isnt wild temp fluctuations...it will prob need to brew for about 2-4 weeks, dont rush it....BIG MISTAKE...Use your hydrometer to tell you when its finished fermenting, airlocks are useless & misleading. Wait till it finishes fermenting...I'd guess 10-15 days then give it another week to rest in the fermenter, then bottle. Use coopers carb drops or your usual carb method, eg sugar/dex. Whilst fermenting your first, use that time to research what you want to do with your second brew.
> 
> ...



This sort of reply is why AHB is such a great forum. As a newbie here (only one thread so far) i love just reading all these sorts of threads to learn new tricks and ideas. I am currently working on an idea for my last lager for the year here in bris. I do not have a fermenting fridge but the current temps look about right for bris to do a lager (based on my experience), maybe just a fraction warmer then i'd like. I don't want to hijack this thread but thought i would put up my current plan for a kit with steeped grain etc. addition. Looking for a german inspired drinkable lager perfect for later in the year when it gets nice and warm here in qld....
21L 
1.7
0.5kg ldme
0.6Dex
0.1 kg maltodextrin
250gm carapils steeped 30min @65degrees
50gm caramber as above (left over lol)
10gm hallertaeur @ 20min
5gm hallertaeur @10min
5gm cascade @10min
10gm hallertaeur @flameout 10min steep

i usually do a 5 or 10L boil depending on volume of pot i am using. 

Seems like quite a bit of hops given the wal's kits have fresh hop pellet in them??? Anyone used these kits before. Someone bougth one for me from a home brew shop on recomendation of the guy there but given i add my own hops i'm a bit concerned. Have used the extract beer designer from on here (great application) and got IBU of 27.5? Does that seem right?

Am using S23 yeast. Should i boil part of the wal's lager tin also?. If i just add it to the fermenter with the hops it more like a dry hop than anything given they have a unknown ammount and type of hop pellet in there....

thanks for any help guys


----------



## kocken42 (24/8/10)

Thanks for such a great reply Rendo! These kind of answers can vastly help all those new brewers out there. I know it can get very tough for some of you oldbies to keep things 'simple', when quite a lot of new brewers dont even know what malts or hops are, but have only recently grasped the concept of 'adding this can into this water and sprinkling on this yeast'.


----------



## felten (24/8/10)

bum said:


> You're a bad man. I actually checked this, ready for my mind to be blown, and it turned out to be false.  Shenanigans!



weird :icon_offtopic:


----------



## hirns (24/8/10)

felten said:


> weird :icon_offtopic:
> View attachment 40352




Ha Ha!  Bum you neglected to type in larger and not lager!

Hirns


----------



## Jimboley (24/8/10)

Hi Matt & welcome to the world of brewing,​
I use this can quite often, with really good results.​It has a real Lager, bottom fermenting yeast and you must keep the temp below 19C but because it is only 7g I would not ferment at 5C. Yes, it is possible to ferment at 5C and I have done it before but it doesnt improve the final product & takes 4 weeks.​The 3 main things to keep in mind,​​Dont ever let the temp get to 22C or above and you will get a clean result. Use a wet towel & fan if ness.​I reccomend not use anymore than 300g of dextrose in total.​​Condition the bottles (lager them) for a min of 6 weeks. -This is hard to do when you first get into brewing your own beer, because you just want to try it sooooo bad. But I promise you it will be well worth it.

If you can get a any malt grain in there it will make a massive difference. Here's a tried and true recipe I have made more than a doz times.

1.7kg Coopers EU Lager
1.5kg Light or extra light Liquid Malt Extract (LLME)

250g Carapils- cracked
250g JW Pilsner- cracked 
50g Crystal Wheat- cracked

3x 15g NZ Sticklebract or (3x Spalt or Tettnanger Hop bags)

Easy Instructions:
Clean & Sterilize Everything
1) Boil 3 Litres of clean water in a 7-10L Saucepan, remove from the heat and add 250mL of cold water & Cover.
2) Put grains into a muslin bag, tie off the end and place in the saucepan, stir a little and leave for 30 mins (off heat).
3) Give the bag a good jiggle, remove grain bag and drain well.
4) Put saucepan back on the stove & bring this liquor to a slow boil uncovered for 2 mins. 
5) Make hop tea with 1 of the bags and add to the saucepan & Cover. Remove from heat,
6) Use this hot liquor to rinse the Beer kit & LME cans out, into the fermenter. Put 1 more of the hop bags, Seal lid & airlock.
7) Top up fermenter with COLD water and ice to achieve 19/20C then pitch the yeast. I cream yeast with 250mL of lukewarm sterile water (25C) before pitching. This wakes up the yeast & gets the ferment started quicker.
8) Ferment at 18C after about 10 days the airlock will slow or stop, add the last hop tea and leave for a further week.

Even if you dont use the grain it will be good, but I'd really try to give it a go. This steep method is piss easy and will make a big improvement.
If you already have bought BE2 then only use 3/4 of it. That yeast and kit really sucks with too much dextrose. I also made a mistake in measurement and made a 24Litre version which was really good. 4.5%ABV
It will be more economical for you to but hop pellets in the long run and it's easy to put them in a muslin bag so that you dont have floaties in your beer.​​​Hope this helps you out.​​Cheers​:icon_cheers: 
​


----------



## rendo (24/8/10)

Thanks MLP & Swordsman, Its easy to forget how much a newbie does/doesnt know. I am a newbie too really...although I have learnt alot and read SO MUCH mainly on this site, its amazing how quickly you can learn when you put things into practice and follow some sort of methodical approach. Wite a log for heavens sake...so important.

Hopefully mattc8 (and others) has found it useful......



My Little Pony said:


> Thanks for such a great reply Rendo! These kind of answers can vastly help all those new brewers out there. I know it can get very tough for some of you oldbies to keep things 'simple', when quite a lot of new brewers dont even know what malts or hops are, but have only recently grasped the concept of 'adding this can into this water and sprinkling on this yeast'.


----------



## Swordsman (24/8/10)

rendo said:


> Thanks MLP & Swordsman, Its easy to forget how much a newbie does/doesnt know. I am a newbie too really...although I have learnt alot and read SO MUCH mainly on this site, its amazing how quickly you can learn when you put things into practice and follow some sort of methodical approach. Wite a log for heavens sake...so important.
> 
> Hopefully mattc8 (and others) has found it useful......




No prob mate...you deserve kudos for helping out newbies i'd say. As for a log I have been printing out the brewday docs from the kit and extract excell spreadsheet. I then make any notes RE changes i made on the page or attach more details. Best i can do given how lazy i am LOL. 

Would be interested in any feedback you or anyone else might have RE my lager recipe though (as per my earlier post). I have diddly experience with these sorts of light lagers so am a little at sea. This is esp a problem givne i'm using the wal's country brewer can which i have never used before....


----------



## rendo (24/8/10)

Hi mate...yeah I was meaning to get back to you, tried to write earlier, but the kids are full on :excl: (until then are asleep and the housework is done) 

Anyhow, i took a look at the recipe, given the detail and care you are going into, you have no worries. because either way you will learn a lot from the brew so that the next brew you do will be even better. All that aside, here are my thoughts:

Get the brew going now...(or at least this weekend)....it is getting warmer. the ldme ratio is fine, but what I do nowadays is use more like .750kg of ldme and .250kg of wheat malt, the wheat malt gives a certaindryness/crispness and it really helps add to the head retention(as does the carapils). Then I back out the dex to about 200g-300g or even remove it all together, Carapils...tops!.Yep...use up the caramber..i cant bear to waste anything either...and its bugger all. I like the hop schedule, i think that is fine....you might have a reasonable bitterness at 27.5, which isnt over the top at all, but I say do it and then u will know, it wont be SUPER bitter, but you will get to know what sort of IBU level u like. When u were in the extract designer, what malt kit did you use? or are the wals kits in that spreadsheet? The reason I ask this is to understand if teh spreadsheet has taken into account the IBU in the wals kit. Yes...its a great tool! Well done for using it...again, you put that sort of effort in, then you will end up with great beer eventually...its unavoidable  no need to boil part of the kit, i usually boil my hops schedule in the carapils steepings that I make, there is alot to read about boiling hops at the supposed right SG...but leave that for another day to tinker around with that...(ps...I hear wals kits are fantastic...but i have never tried, i know many who have....)

If you have the S23 yeast then yep, use that for sure, if you need to buy yeast then mayeb try 34/70 or whitelabs liquid yeast ($$'s!) WLP830 German lager yeast. For now S23 is fine.

Please make sure you use your hydrometer, once fermentation has finished make sure you give it a few good days, at least 5 days rest before you bottle it, once FG has been reached..(i am guessing 1014?) then when you are about to let it rest you might want to consider adding finings to clear your brew. I use gelatine a lot, its cheap, works a treat and really clears your brew. It needs about 3 or so days to work reasonably well. Heaps to read up on here regarding "how to gelatine"...in very short I basically add 5g of gelatine (one heaped teaspoon) to 250ml of boiled water that has cooled to about 70deg-ish...I let the gelatine sit there for a while to rehydrate, then stir and rest and stir and repeat until it all is dissolved. Go open your fermenter, pour the gelatine mix slowly across the top of the fermenter covering as much surface area as possible. Goes without saying you need to keep whatever comes in contact with your brew sanitary... give it a go...u'll notice the difference.

rendo
(ps....I think I am trying to rival pistol patch with these long rants...but I have some VERY VERY big shoes to fill there and I think BjornJ beats me to the finish line with his long posts....one day maybe when I become a BIAB jedi...I think he is BIAB yoda)




Swordsman said:


> No prob mate...you deserve kudos for helping out newbies i'd say. As for a log I have been printing out the brewday docs from the kit and extract excell spreadsheet. I then make any notes RE changes i made on the page or attach more details. Best i can do given how lazy i am LOL.
> 
> Would be interested in any feedback you or anyone else might have RE my lager recipe though (as per my earlier post). I have diddly experience with these sorts of light lagers so am a little at sea. This is esp a problem givne i'm using the wal's country brewer can which i have never used before....


----------



## MattC8 (25/8/10)

Thank you all for the responses to my question. Especially Rendo and Jimboley with your very detailed posts and instructions. I am very appreciative. I am new to the brewing caper and need all the advice I can get. So far the brews I've made a drinkable, but nothing special. I should point out though that so far I've only followed the instructions on the can. No extra additions. This really is a great forum for the inexperienced like me. Thank you all.

To keep you updated, I put down the first batch yesterday as per the Coopers instructions on the can. I'm using my Garage as the location, it has an average temp of 16C so I assume that will be suitable for fermentation? I've tried to convince the wife that a fermenting fridge with temp control would be a worthwhile investment but she is less convinced than I of the economic benefits.... Ill use the next week to get the extra ingredients for the 2nd batch. Hopefully I can get the stuff and put the 2nd down soon after the first is finished.

Ill continue to post updates as I go along. Thanks again for the advice

Regards,

Matt


----------



## Swordsman (26/8/10)

Great reply rendo. Too bad i didn't get it till after i'd done the brew LOL. I did the brew last night and completely forgot to come check here first. I basically followed the recipe i posted on here but made a few changes. I use the coopers brewing sugar for my dex/malto addition (i can't remember the ratio) but always work it out as around 80% dex anyone confirm? Basically it ends up adding around 400grm dex in the end and 100gm maltodextrin. I also put in 600gm ldme instead of 500. Never thought of using wheat malt....have to see if my guy has that in store its a good idea thanks!

followed the hop bill as prescribed. The short boil times didn't give a huge amount of bitterness based on my wort tasting but its nice and 'spicey' from the hallertau (which i wanted). i hope the cascade citrus note comes through because i think that gives lagers (well i love cascade so all beers LOL) a nice lift. I needed the dex to give it a fairly high alcohol level because its a 'mates in front of footy' beer if you know what i mean and i already have a lighter lager (3.9% involving dry hopped grapefruit.....not a great success but getting there in the bottle LOL). 

I put in 400gm of the kit in 5L of water/steeping liquid solution because i wanted to boil out a bit of the POR that is in the can. I was told that Wal's kits use POR in their lager's but not sure. It definitely has real hops in it, it gets stuck to the bottom of the can LOL. Definite hop aroma in the can as you pour it out. I think its more like a dry hop really because you just have hops in the fermenter floating around now.....

Biggest problem was temp. It was only 15 deg outside when i put it down but the pitch temp was a bit high at nearly 18deg....hmm not great. I got it to cool down to 15-16deg so far and its still dropping slowly. Thing is i didn't have any s23 (naughty naughty not checking before starting work) but the wal's can did come with a yeast with 'lager yeast' written on it. The kit was new with a good useby and i was told by my home brew guy that it is real lager strain and it does work quite well...but is VERY slow at 12deg or below but seems to like working at 15deg. So seems i might have got lucky there and ended up with about teh right temp for this yeast though it seems high. I will keep trying to get it to come down my last lager (a FWK) was done at 12-13deg and it went well so just hope i haven't got it too hot!

Thanks for your help. 

PS. Just went and checked on it and its still at 15deg but fermentation definitely has started based on what i can smell out of the airlock. So far so good i think....



rendo said:


> Hi mate...yeah I was meaning to get back to you, tried to write earlier, but the kids are full on :excl: (until then are asleep and the housework is done)
> 
> Anyhow, i took a look at the recipe, given the detail and care you are going into, you have no worries. because either way you will learn a lot from the brew so that the next brew you do will be even better. All that aside, here are my thoughts:
> 
> ...


----------



## Jimboley (26/8/10)

"I should point out though that so far I\'ve only followed the instructions on the can. No extra additions. "

"To keep you updated, I put down the first batch yesterday as per the Coopers instructions on the can. I'm using my Garage as the location, it has an average temp of 16C so I assume that will be suitable for fermentation? "


G\'day Matt,

Most brewers start off simple. The instructions on that range of cans is pretty detailed, with good basic advice. I brewed Kit & Kilo style for the first 7 years brewing at home. I must say they were pretty ordinary, but things have changed now, there\'s been great advances with yeast & pre hopped malt technology. As a result K&K brews are tasting better than they used to. 

Some Lager yeasts make the best beers at 5-7C, but that kit yeast doesnt seem to make any better beer at that low temp. In fact I reckon the best Eruo Lagers I\'m made were fermented at 18-19C. Nothing wrong with 16C at ALL. You may find that it takes a fair bit longer to finish fermenting then at 18C. Remember it\'s more important to keep the temp steady then to keep as low as possible. 
In other words a steady 18C is better then 14C - 18C. I used to put a blanket on at night and a wet towel during the day. 

Keep that beer in bottle as long as you can hold off....taste best after 7 weeks.

All the best with the next brew!

Cheers

James


----------



## rendo (27/8/10)

happy brewing guys!!!


----------



## MattC8 (28/8/10)

Thanks Guys,
My EL has been down for about 3 and 1/2 days now and it would appear to me that little is actually happening. Visually there is no sign at all of any scum and I haven't seen or heard a bubble yet either. Given that Its pretty stable at 16C, is that OK? Should I just wait a week or so or should I do 'something' (WTF I don't know).
I took a hydrometer reading last knight and it was virtually the same as when I started (1041). That's approximately 1 below the OG of 1042 so I guess something must be happening. Right??

As usual I'm grateful for any comments or advice.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## mwd (28/8/10)

Should really be starting up after 3.5 days I would suggest bringing it into a room where it is a bit warmer and gently rock the fermenter to get a swirling action going to get the yeast back into suspension. Soon as it starts going you can put it back in 16C room. Need to be careful sometimes night temperatures can drop very low and cause the yeast to remain dormant.

I could not really read a hydrometer that accurately to be able to see a one point drop.


----------



## keifer33 (28/8/10)

If your hydro is calibrated to 20c and sample was around 20ish then 16c is about 1 point. Pretty much after 3 and a bit days it should be well underway. I would take the above advice and try to gentle rock the fermenter and keep it stable, I find if its constant 16c during the day it might drop a fair chunk over night, try wrapping a sheet/towel/shirt and see what the temp is when you check it first thing in the morning.


----------



## MattC8 (29/8/10)

Thanks Guys,
Ill go and try that advice now. Stay tuned for further updates (by that I mean please continue to respond to any further requests for advice I have).

Regards,

Matt


----------



## rendo (30/8/10)

HI Matt,

My gutfeel is to wait and 'she'll be right'. Where abouts are u in this wonderful country? Its still pretty cold in some areas, especially at night as one person said here. Temp fluctuations can make the yeast be rather naughty and slow. I cant believe I am saying this, but you could just wrap a blanket or something around it just to help the temp stay a little more constant. Fermentation (once it starts) creates its own heat, so it often it a degree or two above ambient temps (exothermic reaction I believe it called, thinking back to high school, a LONG time ago). Is it sitting on a concrete/tiled floor? Get it off the floor or put something underneath it if so, u know how well the concrete/tiles can suck the warmth outta anything that sits/stands on it. DONT use a heater or heat pad etc etc. Its a lager yeast and they love these temps, they can just be slow to start. A little shake or swirl wont hurt anything. You could give it a gentle stir, but I recommend that you dont, last thing u want to do is risk introducing an infection, ps, never stor a brew once fermentation has started. U will encourage oxidisation/oxidation (that is yucky flavours)? I always get that one wrong...its one of those two oxi words.....

How did you pitch the yeast? Did you sprinkle the dry yeast on top? Did you rehydrate the yeast? What temp was the wort (brew) when you pitched the yeast? What temp was the 'yeast' when u pitched? eg had it been sitting in the fridge and u opened and pitched? was it kept at room temp? id you microwave the yeast to get it hot (joking...dont ever do this!!)...(i will tell u more on yeast tips, once u let me know how u pitched the yeast)

anyway, as annoying as it is, just wait, I am pretty sure all is well. It will get going and it could well be a slow ferment, which isnt a bad thing at all. say about 15 days as a really 'rough' guess...hydrometer is your friend and several days wait once the gravity stops will do your beer wonders?

rendo



MattC8 said:


> Thanks Guys,
> Ill go and try that advice now. Stay tuned for further updates (by that I mean please continue to respond to any further requests for advice I have).
> 
> Regards,
> ...


----------



## rendo (30/8/10)

Matt, see my post above, but also take a look at this thread, you arent alone. Take KitRou's experience as a bit of encouragement  it'lll be fine

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=47386

rendo



MattC8 said:


> Thanks Guys,
> Ill go and try that advice now. Stay tuned for further updates (by that I mean please continue to respond to any further requests for advice I have).
> 
> Regards,
> ...


----------



## Swordsman (31/8/10)

MattC8 said:


> Thanks Guys,
> My EL has been down for about 3 and 1/2 days now and it would appear to me that little is actually happening. Visually there is no sign at all of any scum and I haven't seen or heard a bubble yet either. Given that Its pretty stable at 16C, is that OK? Should I just wait a week or so or should I do 'something' (WTF I don't know).
> I took a hydrometer reading last knight and it was virtually the same as when I started (1041). That's approximately 1 below the OG of 1042 so I guess something must be happening. Right??
> 
> ...



Keep the faith Matt i think she will be right. I'm a newb at some of this lager stuff but have been home brewing for a few years and all the great advice provided so far tallies with my experience. Temp constant is better than a few degress off spec. Yeast (ones included in kits and most dry yeasts too) are very tolerant of a bit of off spec temp. At worst they generate a few different (potentially unadvisable) flavours. 

In saying that i'd think your lager should be going by now? As i noted in my earleir posts i put down my lager recipe (based off a wal's country brewer lager can) and had to use the provided lager yeast because i found myself short of s23. It started off a bit warmer than i wanted. It took about 24 hours for any activity to occur and then once i had the temp down to 14-15degress it really got going and by the second day was popping the airlock along nicely with a krausen on top and a definite lager style 'sulphur' smell out of the fermenter. Its still popping away now (5 or so days later). Took an SG reading just now and it is at 1021 which is a fraction low for me and shows that i am running it a bit higher in temp than my last lager. Started at 1042 was aiming for higher 1045 or so but for whatever reason the estimate was a bit off. Sample was very yeasty and its got a definite sulphur tang. 

Just stick with it i'd say it will get there in the end. I had one temp excursion so far this brew when it went up to 17deg during the day and i let the towel go dry. What i am doing is wetting a towel around the ferementer (its off the ground) then as it dries out at night i just let it dry so it becomes like a blanket and next morning i wet it again. simple system but its holding it at 14-16 no prob so far...


----------



## MattC8 (1/9/10)

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. Keep it coming

Regards,

Matt


----------



## MattC8 (3/9/10)

Sorry Rendo,
I just realised I didn't actually answer your question. I prepare the yeast by mixing it with about a cup of warm water and placing a spoonful of sugar in, then mixing. I leave it for about half an hour to ensure that it is activating. Then I add to the wort mix. Its usually about 26C in the fermenter when I add the yeast mix. I don't have a thermometer reading in the liquid yeast mixture I prepare.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## rendo (4/9/10)

Matt.....well done, u are already doing well by rehydrating your yeast and letting it activate etc. No advice needed 

The only thing I do on top of what you do now is make a yeast starter. This is a reasonably easy process, but it just involves a little planning. Essentially you do a mini brew 1-2L in a big glass jar or something like that...mix it with some LDME or something similar to about 1.040, then brew away. This way the yeast multiples dramatically in your mini-brew (yeast starter) and then after 2-3 days (depending) you prepare your brew/fermenter etc and pitch the yeast starter in. That way u get heaps more yeast in your brew, giving it a good head start.

Not essential for what you are doing...try it one day, dont worry about it right now. There is heaps to read here on "yeast starters", just google it...

rendo

really for what you are doing the returns arent there. Once 


MattC8 said:


> Sorry Rendo,
> I just realised I didn't actually answer your question. I prepare the yeast by mixing it with about a cup of warm water and placing a spoonful of sugar in, then mixing. I leave it for about half an hour to ensure that it is activating. Then I add to the wort mix. Its usually about 26C in the fermenter when I add the yeast mix. I don't have a thermometer reading in the liquid yeast mixture I prepare.
> 
> Regards,
> ...


----------



## MattC8 (5/9/10)

Thanks Rendo,
I'm pleased to report that as of last night the airlock is bubbling in the EL. It seems to be going fairly regularly so there is definitely something happening in the fermenter now. Thanks a lot to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my questions.

Rendo, I'm sorry to take up more of you time, but I have a few more questions about the Yeast Starter you mentioned above. Do I need to boil it? Or do I just mix the LDME (how much?) and the water and yeast together? Also do I add the whole thing to my fermenter with the wort when I am brewing?

Regards,

Matt


----------



## Swordsman (5/9/10)

MattC8 said:


> Thanks Rendo,
> I'm pleased to report that as of last night the airlock is bubbling in the EL. It seems to be going fairly regularly so there is definitely something happening in the fermenter now. Thanks a lot to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my questions.
> 
> Rendo, I'm sorry to take up more of you time, but I have a few more questions about the Yeast Starter you mentioned above. Do I need to boil it? Or do I just mix the LDME (how much?) and the water and yeast together? Also do I add the whole thing to my fermenter with the wort when I am brewing?
> ...



Good to hear matt. Did you do anything to get it started? (temp change, shake it around etc.) My lager has got down to 1011-1012 on the hydrometer as of 10 mins ago (around 11 days). This was a fraction fast compared to my last lager but the temps were higher than i wanted. I decided to bring it into my laundry (constant temp of about 18-19 deg all day round) because the rapidly warming days in bris were causing too much variation in temp during the day (too hot). The last reading was 1021 about 5 days ago so it took a while to get down the last 10 or so units. 

Am looking from advice from more experienced lager brewers as to how to proceed at this point. I left my last lager on the trub for about 7 days after it finished (purely because i was not home and had no ability to do anything with it). I have heard this is a good idea esp with lagers to help the yeast 'clean up' any byproducts from earlier fermentation? The higher temp i held it at for the last few days is also referred to as a diacetyl rest?? Of course i did it by accident because i had no choice but anyway LOL. 

I have tasted the beer at this point and its quite good....needs lagering obviously with sulphur on the nose but the hallertau has come through with a nice spicyness. is still very cloudy so will probably go the finingins/gelatine route when i rack it off to another fermenter after a week on the trub. 

Any help or tips on this much appreciated guys....

EDIT: PS Is it advisable to dry hop a lager? If so what are a few hops used. I would be looking for a very light addition of hop aromo/flavour to give a bit of fruitiness. Just an idea i had just now.


----------



## rendo (7/9/10)

Hey Matt,
Dont be sorry...I have learnt SO MUCH from the guys here and it is my pleasure to help others (where I can)  I just hope u make even better beer because of what you learn here, I did and do.

100g of LDME per 1L....that should give you a solution/wort that is around 1.040. You technically are meant to boil it and you probably should...i often do not, but it is bad advice for me to say that, so yes, you should boil it as being sanitary is of prime importance when directly dealing with the yeast etc. 

There are SO MANY threads here about yeast starters, have a read, get confused  then go experiment...i even made a few yeast starters just for fun, to get use to doing it. Also, instead of LDME you can use 'goo' from a kit. I bought a cheapo kit (on special at coles...like $5) and that way I have 1.7kg of goo to use as starter malt. I put the goo into old jars (usually honey jars, similar substance really) and it keeps just perfectly.

I like to pitch an active starter, by that I mean the starter has gone thru the growth phase and is now fermenting. Then I pitch. Some will wait for the ferment to finish then put the wort/mini-beer in the fridge to settle the yeast and pour the excess liquid off then pitch the yeast, that will work too, but again, I like to pitch an active starter...the lot goes in...works for me...I also ensure my starter is 'brewed' at about the same temp as what the fermentation will be.

Seriously though, do some searches on the yeast starter, (eg this link)you dont need a stir plate yet, i dont have one, would be cool, but I am getting by, just give it a shake every so often, and if you want to really deepen your knowledge on yeast then read the maltose falcon linky..here....its a long read, but man it is far too much knowledge about yeast....however every bit of it is gold.

rendo



MattC8 said:


> Thanks Rendo,
> I'm pleased to report that as of last night the airlock is bubbling in the EL. It seems to be going fairly regularly so there is definitely something happening in the fermenter now. Thanks a lot to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my questions.
> 
> Rendo, I'm sorry to take up more of you time, but I have a few more questions about the Yeast Starter you mentioned above. Do I need to boil it? Or do I just mix the LDME (how much?) and the water and yeast together? Also do I add the whole thing to my fermenter with the wort when I am brewing?
> ...


----------

