# Lyle's Golden Syrup



## stindall (10/9/08)

Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone know's where you can buy Lyle's Golden Syrup in Sydney or if not then what else could you use to a similar effect. 

I'm trying to make a Belgian dark strong ale and the recipe calls for 450g of Lyle's.

Thanks,
TFM


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## stillscottish (10/9/08)

The Fat Monk said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just wondering if anyone know's where you can buy Lyle's Golden Syrup in Sydney or if not then what else could you use to a similar effect.
> 
> ...



CSR Golden Syrup.

It's pretty much the same thing IMHO, available in supermarkets everywhere.

Cheers

Campbell


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## nifty (10/9/08)

These guys have it - link

I got some from another online shop, but I can't find the link.

nifty


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## Bribie G (10/9/08)

I've always bought mine from Woolies, I tipped a can into an english bitter extract brew and it's come out nicely. I'm on my way to Woolies right now, will let you know in about an hour. PS ALDI sometimes has it on special when they have an "English Festival" specials theme along with the HP sauce, the English Style baked beans etc but my local ALDI can't tell me when it's coming up again.


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## nifty (10/9/08)

nifty said:


> These guys have it - link
> 
> I got some from another online shop, but I can't find the link.
> 
> nifty



oops, fixed the link - link


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## bconnery (10/9/08)

You can get Lyle's in Woolies/Coles, can't remember which one, if not both, but that's where I got mine. 

There was a discussion floating about on here somewhere that the CSR one had a much stronger/different flavour and wasn't the best replacement, but that comes down to someone's opinion of course. 

I've only ever used Tate & Lyle's so I don't have a comparison.


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## ausdb (10/9/08)

bconnery said:


> You can get Lyle's in Woolies/Coles, can't remember which one, if not both, but that's where I got mine.
> 
> There was a discussion floating about on here somewhere that the CSR one had a much stronger/different flavour and wasn't the best replacement, but that comes down to someone's opinion of course.
> 
> I've only ever used Tate & Lyle's so I don't have a comparison.


Both Bundaberg and CSR have noticeably different flavours than the Lyles which will come through in the finished beer, especially if it is an english style bitter or mild. From my experience the Lyles is the mildest, smoothest tasting and the Bundaberg distinctly "rummy" or "molassesey" tasting with the CSR leaning more towards the Bundaberg than the Lyles.

Of course YMMV but like with all brewing ingredients taste it before adding it to your brew, the best thing about this stuff is you can sample it on a piece of bread


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## Bribie G (10/9/08)

Thanks to your post I decided to put a tin in my next English bitter ... thanks for reminding me about this product!!

Woolies didn't have any today <_< but I scored a tin from the local Super IGA. for about $3.50




Manager says it's not from their bulk supplier Metcash, they get it from an independent supplier and he suggests you try your local Super IGAs and make enquiries.

Definitely a different flavour and colour to the local syrups.


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## fraser_john (10/9/08)

I have to agree with ausdb, the Lyles is a much more subtle syrup than any of the Aussie ones!


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## buttersd70 (10/9/08)

Lyles is a mixture of inverted/non inverted, wheras I think the CSR is not (athough I could be wrong). CSR definately has a _much _harsher flavour IMHO.


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## Effect (10/9/08)

yeah - lyles has more inverted sugar than csr. Use lyles for a quick fix for belgium candy syrup!


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## Bribie G (10/9/08)

Did a wiki search and found out that golden syrup is generally partly inverted and also made a disturbing discovery:

I always knew there was a sleeping lion on the tin.




However the on closer inspection the picture is actually a dead rotting lion surrounded by a swarm of bees and there is a slogan on the can so small I have never read it: "Out of the strong came forth sweetness". Abram Lyle, a deeply religious man, put this on his tins as a reference to:

"This is a reference to the Biblical story in chapter 14 of the Book of Judges in which Samson was traveling to the land of the Philistines in search of a wife. During the journey he killed a lion, and when he passed the same spot on his return he noticed that a swarm of bees had formed a comb of honey in the carcass"

I am extremely impressed by this information


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## Tim (10/9/08)

fraser_john said:


> I have to agree with ausdb, the Lyles is a much more subtle syrup than any of the Aussie ones!






buttersd70 said:


> Lyles is a mixture of inverted/non inverted, wheras I think the CSR is not (athough I could be wrong). CSR definately has a _much _harsher flavour IMHO.




Invert sugar is always a liquid at room temperature and I would be surprised if there was any non inverted sugar in golden syrup. When making invert sugar at home you usually only invert part of the sugar. Upon cooling, the non invert sugar solidifies, while the inverted sugar remains a liquid. If golden syrup contained non inverted sugars they would be solid in suspension (which they are not).

BTW. I have a PhD in Org. Chemistry and did a postdoc in carbohydrate chemistry.


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## buttersd70 (10/9/08)

Tim said:


> Invert sugar is always a liquid at room temperature and I would be surprised if there was any non inverted sugar in golden syrup. When making invert sugar at home you usually only invert part of the sugar. Upon cooling, the non invert sugar solidifies, while the inverted sugar remains a liquid. If golden syrup contained non inverted sugars they would be solid in suspension (which they are not).
> 
> BTW. I have a PhD in Org. Chemistry and did a postdoc in carbohydrate chemistry.



Perhaps hearing it (or at least reading it from the horses mouth?


> *How is Lyle's Golden Syrup made?* Sugar syrup is acidified so that the sucrose inverts. Quite simply, the sucrose sugar molecule splits in half to give glucose and fructose sugars. This inverted syrup is blended back with the original syrup to give a partially inverted syrup. The secret of Lyle's Golden Syrup is the final blend of sucrose, glucose and fructose which allows the syrup to be so thick and velvety without crystallizing.



quoted from the Lyles website. http://www.lylesgoldensyrup.com/LylesGolde...ult.htm#HowMade


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## Tim (10/9/08)

Ok, so you are saying that Lyles Golden Syrup is a mix (actually this makes sense as it is partly solid when cold, like honey goes). Golden Syrup in general is purely inverted, Lyes are technically not selling Golden Syrup! I think the point I was trying to make is that Invert Sugar is liquid, as opposed to solid. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Lyles is non-inverted to keep it liquid at room temp.


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## buttersd70 (10/9/08)

Tim said:


> Ok, so you are saying that Lyles Golden Syrup is a mix (actually this makes sense as it is partly solid when cold, like honey goes). Golden Syrup in general is purely inverted, Lyes are technically not selling Golden Syrup! I think the point I was trying to make is that Invert Sugar is liquid, as opposed to solid. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Lyles is non-inverted to keep it liquid at room temp.



Given that golden syrup was invented by Abram Lyle in 1883, it could be argued that Lyles is the only company to sell golden syrup, and every other company sells a golden syrup-like substance  
Lyles don't mention the ratio they use, however I seem to recall reading somewhere that it's around the 80% mark of inverted. (but I can't quote a source on this, or attest to its accuracy at all...it was a comment in passing, somewhere)

My understanding, though, is that all golden syrup is a mix of invert/non invert, but I have not been able to find any details on manufacturers websites, other than Lyles.
EDIT: silvers spoon golden syrup is listed on their site as also being partially inverted.The Canadian Sugar Institute also states that Golden Syrup is a blend of sucrose and invert sugar. link


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## Tim (11/9/08)

Wikipedia mentions that Golden Syrup is a form of invert sugar (definition). It also states that Golden Syrup derived from Cane Sugar is inverted, but hydrolysis of beet sugar leads to a mixture of invert and non invert.



> Lyle's golden syrup is a partially inverted sugar syrup. It consists of glucose and fructose syrup produced by inversion, which has been blended with the original sucrose syrup in a proportion that creates a thick mixture which does not crystallize.[1]



It also mentions the above as a trivial point of fact that Lyles is different from other Golden Syrups.

From this is it safe to assume that CSR Golden Syrup (being derived from caen sugar) is mroe completely hydrolysed/inverted than the Nth American Beet sugar derived varieties?


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## Tim (11/9/08)

The plot thickens, the wikipedia entry for Invert Sugar claim that Golden Syrup is 56% invert sugar!

I guess there is no right or wrong answer - and I guess its a reminder not to believe everything we read online!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup


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## buttersd70 (11/9/08)

Tim said:


> The plot thickens, the wikipedia entry for Invert Sugar claim that Golden Syrup is 56% invert sugar!
> 
> I guess there is no right or wrong answer - and I guess its a reminder not to believe everything we read online!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup



lol, now that you mention it, I have read those articles.  And it just goes to show just how innacurate, inconsistant, and contradictory Wikipedia can be. And kids nowadays think its the be all and bloody end all. If its on Wikipedia, it must be true  

I found that the golden syrup wiki entry was a little bit biased toward Lyles as a product, instead of talking about syrup in general. I notice that the Invert sugar wiki article is referring to golden syrup in general, and not lyles specifically. Further thickening of the plot comes from the sugar.ca link. On re reading it, even though most canadian sugar production is beet based, the golden syrup definition there refers to it being a cane product. :huh: Rogers Golden Syrup from Canada is almost word for word what the sugar.ca says, that its a blend of cane sugars. Interesting......

As far as CSR is concerned....well, that will be a cane product. Thats a no-brainer. As for invert/non invert? I can only make supposition on this. Having used both Lyles and CSR extensively (in baking), I have made the following observations.....

CSR is more prone to crystilisation in storage. CSR is harsher in flavour, and less sweet than lyles, with a slight bitter endnote on the palate. So from this, I would make the conclusion that not only is CSR a blend of invert/non invert, but that it has a lower percentage of invert sugar than lyles does, due to the fact that invert sugar is less likely to crystalise, and is sweeter than sucrose. As I said, this is all observational, with no empirical data, but logic leads me to those conlusions.

I find it interesting that all the manufacturers websites (at least the ones that I have been to) either state that it is a blend of invert and non inverted, or make no statement at all about the nature of their product. I have yet to find one that says it is 100% inverted.

But just to satisfy my somewhat perverse curiosity (because I hate an un-answered question) I have just sent a request to CSR through teir online contact to find out if it is 100% invert or a blend :lol: 

I will post the response, if they deign to reply.


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## drsmurto (11/9/08)

Tim - you have a Phd in Org chem hey? Who was your supervisor? 

Are you doing a postdoc in the UK? Where? I post-docced in Durham. 

If you are working in a chemistry lab, here's an experiment for you to do to prove/disprove your point.

take a solution of lyles golden syrup (or any other version) and measure its optical rotation.....

A quick search of the literature will tell you that sucrose has a different optical rotation to that of glucose and fructose.

You could even monitor the rate of reaction, plot graphs ..... :icon_drool2:


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## stindall (11/9/08)

Phillip said:


> yeah - lyles has more inverted sugar than csr. Use lyles for a quick fix for belgium candy syrup!



Phillip,

Do you know any brew shops that sell belgian candy syrup? I was reading about it yesterday and it's easy to get in the US (The Northern Brewer) but i can't find any here.

Have you ever used it?

TFM


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## staggalee (11/9/08)

The Fat Monk said:


> Phillip,
> 
> Do you know any brew shops that sell belgian candy syrup? I was reading about it yesterday and it's easy to get in the US (The Northern Brewer) but i can't find any here.
> 
> ...



Just sub. with Lyles Golden Syrup. :lol: 

staggalee.


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## gap (11/9/08)

staggalee said:


> Just sub. with Lyles Golden Syrup. :lol:
> 
> staggalee.


 I noted the laugh . Golden Syrup is a million miles away from Belgian Candy Syrup in colour, aroma and taste.

Regards

Graeme


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## buttersd70 (16/9/08)

I just recieved an email in response to my query to CSR. 


> Hi David,
> 
> Golden Syrup is a partially inverted sugar syrup, made by enzymatic
> hydrolysis of a sucrose solution. It contains approximately equal
> ...



So there you have it. As for the flavour and colour differences? I never asked the CSR guy about it, but I would make an assumtion that it has to do with the amount of refinement of the original syrup.


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## seemax (17/9/08)

I've got an old tin of Lyle's Dark Treacle sitting in the pantry. It tastes nice, very intense molasses flavour, bordering on cheapo licorice.

Anyone ever used it in a brew?

I have a Brewcraft English Bitter kit waiting to be used, maybe be a good combination with some EKG hops and Windsor yeast.


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## Bribie G (17/9/08)

buttersd70 said:


> I just recieved an email in response to my query to CSR.
> 
> 
> So there you have it. As for the flavour and colour differences? I never asked the CSR guy about it, but I would make an assumtion that it has to do with the amount of refinement of the original syrup.



Went on a tour of the Mossman Mill in FNQ about five years ago 






and at each stage there was a 'tasting station' where you could taste samples of the product at various stages. They basically boil the cane juice until crystals start to form then run off the liquid which is then boiled again and more crystals, and keep going in stages until all that is left is molasses and 'raw' sugar which is shipped down south for processing into white sugar. Along the way, one of the boilings produces a run off liquid that can be concentrated and turned into golden syrup. It is inverted so that no further crystals will form thus enabling it to be turned into a honey texture.

I'm pretty sure it's run off from the second boil but my memory might be failing here. Lyle get most of their sugar from European and East Anglian beet so I'm not sure what process they would use for their syrup.


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## Tyred (17/9/08)

The Fat Monk said:


> Phillip,
> 
> Do you know any brew shops that sell belgian candy syrup? I was reading about it yesterday and it's easy to get in the US (The Northern Brewer) but i can't find any here.
> 
> ...



Craftbrewer have dark and extra dark Belgian Candi Syrup listed as products.


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## nifty (17/9/08)

seemax said:


> I've got an old tin of Lyle's Dark Treacle sitting in the pantry. It tastes nice, very intense molasses flavour, bordering on cheapo licorice.
> 
> Anyone ever used it in a brew?
> 
> I have a Brewcraft English Bitter kit waiting to be used, maybe be a good combination with some EKG hops and Windsor yeast.



I've used the Lyle's treacle in some stouts lately, it gives an interesting flavour, but you have to watch out and not use too much.


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## staggalee (17/9/08)

this may explain
http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=13305

staggalee.


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## Effect (17/9/08)

gap said:


> I noted the laugh . Golden Syrup is a million miles away from Belgian Candy Syrup in colour, aroma and taste.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Graeme




i don't think it is THAT far off....and notice how I said 'quick fix' not substitute!


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