# Biscuit Malt In Apa



## glaab (4/1/10)

Hi all,

just about to make an APA extract to keep me going until I start AGing.
I was thinking of adding 125g biscuit malt when I steep my 250g of carapils.
Might steep/ mash @66 for 60min instead of the usual 30. 
Would a bit of biscuit improve an APA or be out of place? 
I'd hate to stuff up 45L batch, I think it might be a slight improvement although it is pretty hoppy and I mightn't even know it's there.

Cheers


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

glaab said:


> Hi all,
> just about to make an APA extract to keep me going until I start AGing.
> I was thinking of adding 125g biscuit malt when I steep my 250g of carapils.
> Might steep/ mash @66 for 60min instead of the usual 30.
> ...




Should be great! APAs are supposed to be unique by their specialty malt character and not by their crystal malt profile which is really what makes the difference between and English and American Pale Ale (ignoring the hops). Crystal malt if following a style guide should be used with restraint for an APA. Personally i ignore this and use crystal and specialty malts together in my APA. Take SNPA for example, its full of crystal and breaks the style guideline well! 

But yes, back on topic. Use the biscuit it should be interesting! :beerbang:


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## zebba (4/1/10)

Is that much biscuit going to be noticable though?


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## BrenosBrews (4/1/10)

Biscuit certainly is not out of place in an APA. In fact I'd up it to more like 250g or more but I also love the biscuity character in APAs.


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## warra48 (4/1/10)

I haven't used Biscuit malt in Pale Ales, but I've used up to kg of Amber malt, and they've been very enjoyable.
I'd say, go for it.


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## bum (4/1/10)

Doesn't Biscuit need to be mashed with a malt with high diastatic power - no enzymes in it or some such? Can't see the carapils getting it over the line.

Apologies if I've got something arse-about.


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## gjhansford (4/1/10)

glaab said:


> Hi all,
> 
> just about to make an APA extract to keep me going until I start AGing.
> I was thinking of adding 125g biscuit malt when I steep my 250g of carapils.
> ...



If you were doing AG and making 45L you would be using ... say ... 8-10 kg grain. Recommended % Biscuit is 5-15% which would be between 450g and 1.35kg so up the 125g no worries!

ghhb :icon_cheers:


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## Gavo (4/1/10)

bum said:


> Doesn't Biscuit need to be mashed with a malt with high diastatic power - no enzymes in it or some such? Can't see the carapils getting it over the line.
> 
> Apologies if I've got something arse-about.



You're right Bum, "No enzymes. so must be mashed with malts having surplus diastatic power." So... maybe not an option unless used as a part of a partail. Maybe a mini mash with say 500 - 1000 grams of ale malt.


Gavo


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## zebba (4/1/10)

Gavo said:


> You're right Bum, "No enzymes. so must be mashed with malts having surplus diastatic power." So... maybe not an option unless used as a part of a partail. Maybe a mini mash with say 500 - 1000 grams of ale malt.
> 
> 
> Gavo


Or he could ditch the carapils and use 1kg of pilsner malt (+ the biscuit)?*

* note: I'm a noob. This is a question, not a recommendation.


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## Gavo (4/1/10)

Zebba said:


> Or he could ditch the carapils and use 1kg of pilsner malt (+ the biscuit)?*
> 
> * note: I'm a noob. This is a question, not a recommendation.



You could use Pilsner malt certainly, however it is basically a lighter malt than ale malt. Carapils is used to increase head retention and body to the beer. Two different animals really.

Gavo.


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## zebba (4/1/10)

Gavo said:


> You could use Pilsner malt certainly, however it is basically a lighter malt than ale malt. Carapils is used to increase head retention and body to the beer. Two different animals really.
> 
> Gavo.


Ahhh k - thanks.


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## Jazman (4/1/10)

pils is fine to use in an apa


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## manticle (4/1/10)

Bum makes a good point but the inclusion would be a good one if you can do a minimash.

I'm biased though - I put biscuit in loads of things and love the quality it brings - golden ales, porters, american browns etc. Toasty, nutty, biscuity, yum.

I'm leaning away from too many different types of crystal/cara at the moment - my most successful brews to date seem to be those that use base malt, biscuit malt and some darker spec malts where necessary. JW light and medium crystal brings any necessary sweetness.


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## glaab (4/1/10)

thanks for the replies, I was talking about 22L recipe sorry. I'll use 500g carafoam and 250 biscuit[fro 45L], the carafoam will have enough enzymes to convert it wont it?


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## manticle (4/1/10)

I don't think carafoam or cara anything have any diastatic power (ability to convert enzymes to starches). If you can maintain a steeping water temp between 60 and 70 for at least 30 mins then adding in 1kg of base malt (or even 500g) should do the trick.


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## Kleiny (4/1/10)

manticle said:


> I don't think carafoam or cara anything have any diastatic power (ability to convert enzymes to starches). If you can maintain a steeping water temp between 60 and 70 for at least 30 mins then adding in 1kg of base malt (or even 500g) should do the trick.



Correct

all malts that can be steeped have already been converted to sugar and then roasted or heated to some degree to provide a diff sugar or flavor the temp is only to dissolve the sugar into solution.

Sorry mants but its convert starches to sugars by enzymes (just to correct your brackets)

The steeping water at 60-70 then adding base malt would be a mini mash in that the base malt does have enzymatic power and needs to convert its starches to sugars. (base malt can not be steeped and needs to be mashed)

Kleiny


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## Gavo (4/1/10)

Manticle is right, Cara's only need steeping to extract the sugars as the conversion is already done in the grain. So no daistatic power available to convert starches to sugars.

Gavo.


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## manticle (4/1/10)

Kleiny said:


> Sorry mants but its convert starches to sugars by enzymes (just to correct your brackets)
> 
> 
> Kleiny



Sorry, I meant activate enzymes to convert starches to sugars.


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## Kleiny (4/1/10)

Gavo said:


> You're right Bum, "No enzymes. so must be mashed with malts having surplus diastatic power." So... maybe not an option unless used as a part of a partail. Maybe a mini mash with say 500 - 1000 grams of ale malt.
> 
> 
> Gavo



Wrong 

there is no enzymatic power but the starches have already been converted by the maltster




Zebba said:


> Or he could ditch the carapils and use 1kg of pilsner malt (+ the biscuit)?*
> 
> * note: I'm a noob. This is a question, not a recommendation.



Pilsner malt would have to under go a mash to convert the starches at correct temp to sugar.

The carapils however could just be steeped toi get the suagrs into solution



Gavo said:


> You could use Pilsner malt certainly, however it is basically a lighter malt than ale malt. Carapils is used to increase head retention and body to the beer. Two different animals really.
> 
> Gavo.



Yes they are and the the use of pils malt would have to be mashed and carapils steeped or just added to the mash

Bothe provide a lower Lovibond but pils is a base malt and carapils is really a spec malt.


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## Kleiny (4/1/10)

Gavo said:


> Manticle is right, Cara's only need steeping to extract the sugars as the conversion is already done in the grain.



Yes by the maltster


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## Kleiny (4/1/10)

Bisuit malt is not a cara or crystal malt (has not been converted by the maltster) and must be mashed within either a mini mash or full mash

Excess diastatic power is required to convert the starches to sugar and it should be mashed with sufficient pale or pilsner malt to complete conversion

Kleiny


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## Gavo (4/1/10)

Kleiny said:


> Wrong
> 
> there is no enzymatic power but the starches have already been converted by the maltster



But here we were talking about biscuit malt which needs to be mashed, and mashed with a grain that has diastatic power.

Gavo.


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## Kleiny (4/1/10)

Gavo said:


> But here we were talking about biscuit malt which needs to be mashed, and mashed with a grain that has diastatic power.
> 
> Gavo.


 Yep sorry Gavo my apologies your first statement was correct

as i said above this is a malt that has not yet undergone conversion and must be mashed with a acceptable malt with diastatic power the conevert itself and basically an adjunct, This is pale or pilsner malt or even munich malt but not to many others

Biscuit malt has to undergo a mash procedure being held at 60 - 70C for a period of 30-60min in conjunction with a high diastatic malt (pale or pils).

Kleiny


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## bum (4/1/10)

So Biscuit needs to be mashed with a malt with high diastatic power and the carapils won't get it over the line?

Apologies if I've got something arse-about.


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## Gavo (4/1/10)

bum said:


> So Biscuit needs to be mashed with a malt with high diastatic power and the carapils won't get it over the line?



That's correct bum. So a pase malt with good dastatic power will work fine.

Gavo.


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## manticle (4/1/10)

bum said:


> So Biscuit needs to be mashed with a malt with high diastatic power and the carapils won't get it over the line?
> 
> Apologies if I've got something arse-about.



I figure you're taking the piss slightly but yes you were correct in the first instance.

Cara anything will do nothing and biscuit needs a base.

So what are you brewing with yours?


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

manticle said:


> I figure you're taking the piss slightly but yes you were correct in the first instance.
> Cara anything will do nothing and biscuit needs a base.
> So what are you brewing with yours?



Hmm why didnt i pick this up with the original post! i'm usually the 1st one to jump is this FATAL extract error 

yeah either way if its matched with equal amounts of base malt in a minimash it will be good as gold. Not to mention adding some extra malt aroma/flavour that extract unfortunatly doesn't have!


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## bum (4/1/10)

manticle said:


> So what are you brewing with yours?



To be honest I was thinking of first using a bit of it in an APA. Just to see a little of what it adds before I try to make it more prominent in another beer.

However, I bit off a bit more than I can chew in the last brew so am taking a step back to extract for a brew to get my poop together so I can't use it for a bit. But that gives me more time to research the use of this malt a bit more so I don't have to suck-it-and-see so much. I do love a good suck - but always prefer a directed suck.

I promise I am storing it suitably - I do appreciate your generosity.


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## glaab (4/1/10)

ok, thank you. I have a sack of Golden Promise , 500g GP with 250g Biscuit @ 66C for 60min and 500g carapils will convert it ok? 





BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Simcoe/ Amarillo Ale 45 Litre
Brewer: Chris
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: Extract
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 45.00 L 
Boil Size: 5.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 7.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
1.00 kg Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 13.19 % 
0.33 kg Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 4.35 % 
3.00 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 39.58 % 
1.50 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 19.79 % 
0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.60 % 
0.50 kg Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett)Grain 6.60 % 
0.25 kg Biscuit (Dingemans) (22.5 SRM) Grain 3.30 % 
38.00 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 28.9 IBU 
25.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.70 %] (15 min) Hops 6.3 IBU 
25.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.70 %] (5 min) Hops 2.5 IBU 
25.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.70 %] (0 min) (Aroma HopHops - 
25.00 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-SteepHops - 
0.50 kg Dextrose [ corn sugar ] (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6.60 % 
2 Pkgs Safale American Ale (Fermentis #US-05) Yeast-Ale 



Notes:
------


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## Gavo (4/1/10)

That looks like it will do the job. Like seing the Simcoe in there, it's been one of my faves of late.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

Gavo said:


> That looks like it will do the job. Like seing the Simcoe in there, it's been one of my faves of late.
> 
> Cheers
> Gavo




Simcoe = KING! :icon_drool2:


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## dr K (4/1/10)

fom 4star:



> Crystal malt if following a style guide should be used with restraint for an APA. Personally i ignore this and use crystal and specialty malts together in my APA. Take SNPA for example, its full of crystal and breaks the style guideline well!



Interesting comment, now I am no expert on SNPA (assuming sierra nevada pale ale here) as I have only tasted the bottled version a handfull + of times, sadly, never on draught.
I have, even from my limited sampling, a skeletal form of it in my mind, now, unless I have been victim to label swapping over a period of years, my memory and taste suggests that it is not full of crystal, and my nose is swinging and sniifing like a dogs with a memory of a long forgotten bone that if there is any crystal it is at best reclusive.
Happy for more info on the granddaddy of APA though.

K


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## browndog (4/1/10)

dr K said:


> fom 4star:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




4% crystal and 96% pale in the clone recipe I have Dr K, I wouldn't call that a great whack.

cheers

Browndog


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## jbowers (4/1/10)

Agree on the simcoe love. Drinking lagunitas now and can actually say I'm getting a little sick of centennial/cascade citrus madness.


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## dr K (4/1/10)

thank you browndog, though i would venture so far as to say that even a small whack (4%) is too high, unless it were carapils.

K


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## Jazman (4/1/10)

well it no good for extract so a bit of topic my last apa i used pale ,,,munich 2,,,and no crystal yet to keg so get back to you.. i dont use a lot of crystal in my apa of late


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## bum (4/1/10)

browndog said:


> 4% crystal and 96% pale in the clone recipe I have Dr K, I wouldn't call that a great whack.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



The oft-mentioned Northen Brewer SNPA clone (http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=15532) - which is supposedly developed with SN's head brewer - has the crystal at 8%. A lot of discussion there about that seeming too high and probably even more discussion about the recipe turning out pretty spot on. Haven't (successfully) punched this one out yet so can't say either way for myself. Interesting read though.


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## Jazman (4/1/10)

years ago i did side by test with an apa i brewed and a snpa fresh from usa and lcpa and there aint a lot diff from lcpa to snpa


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## glaab (4/1/10)

:icon_offtopic: Hi Jazman, how's it going? Do you know where to get SNPA here?, I've never tried it.
I thought maybe our bottle return laws prevented us getting some stuff because they don't 
have the return for deposit info on them. It's $120/ slab + post online, fcuk that for a joke!
Cheers


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## dr K (5/1/10)

SNPA is readily available in Australia these days.
It is pretty much the original APA, oddly enough still very much to style.
Perhaps I am rather out of line, but I feel it is a good idea to taste a recognised commercial example of a beer to at least calibrate.

K


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## glaab (5/1/10)

when I said here I meant Adelaide, I can't find it anywhere, I was wondering where Jazman got it he's in Adelaide too


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## rude (5/1/10)

Here here Dr k but who am I, I have never tried it apparently from sources I have heard though (the fishermans daughter) LCPA is not a patch on it or, sorry clone on it.

Just wondered what everyones thoughts were there because the host is trying to brew a snpa with biscuit malt

Mind you I dont mind the odd LCPA but have limited tastings of beer but they go down well for me

Must try a sierra nevada how much are they a stubbie in the bottle o?

Allso I have never brewed with biscuit malt but it sounds appealing in a pommy style

cheers all sorry for my ramblings but tis HOT over here 37 today 39 tomorrow then thank god a cool one 36-34


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## Fourstar (5/1/10)

dr K said:


> thank you browndog, though i would venture so far as to say that even a small whack (4%) is too high, unless it were carapils.
> K



Yeah maybe i was going a little OTT with my description, see below as taken from the BJCP guidelines for my thaught process. I basically meant the crystal malt in an APA needs to be a background note to keep it within style (not that we are brewing for competition or anything here). Most of the times it ends up being the core malt you pickup when you drink it. Not that i dont like that, i brew this way myself but we are really brewing somewhat English Bitters with US hops by doing this. Oxymoron? Probabaly, but alot of new British brewpubs and micros are leading the way with this spinoff style and ignoring the calls of the purists. 

IMO, if you want excessive crystal in an APA (e.g. >5%) Leave that job to an American Red/Amber. From my experience, unless you add trace amounts (1-2% at most) of crystal then its going to have a distinct standup crystal grain profile (excluding carapils). I even find with 3% caramalt in my house quaffers a crystal sweetness is very noticable in a light coloured beer, including a 40+ IBU hopping rate.



> *Flavor:* ... Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial. *Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent*.







bum said:


> The oft-mentioned Northen Brewer SNPA clone (http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=15532) - which is supposedly developed with SN's head brewer - has the crystal at 8%.



Interesting point there bum. 8% is pushing AAA territory but it sure doesnt taste like 8% in the bottle. Great work with the balance i suppose. Maybe its just the US domestic crystals are not as strong flavoured as ours and the euro maltsters?




dr K said:


> Perhaps I am rather out of line, but I feel it is a good idea to taste a recognised commercial example of a beer to at least calibrate.
> K



Not at all, i think the problem with us as home brewers and beer geeks is we put this beer on a pedestal as the all singing, all dancing God of APAs and forget about the other dozen beers available as commercial examples which probably taste nothing like SNPA and i could guess that 1/2 of them dont have any crystal malt at all.

I'd assume it falls into the same category as the ESB judging except the yanks wont recognise it: _*'when judging an ESB, don't compare the beer to Fullers ESB, compare it to the guidelines'.*_


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## dr K (6/1/10)

> I'd assume it falls into the same category as the ESB judging except the yanks wont recognise it: 'when judging an ESB, don't compare the beer to Fullers ESB, compare it to the guidelines'.



Oddly ESB seems to be an American Catergory, historically I think you will find Bitter (called Ordinary Bitter in some jurisdictons) and Best or some times I have been told Premium though Best is the better word, Bitter. Certainly Fullers have a beer called ESB, but really its just a name not a category. Do Fullers or any British Brewery have an Ordinary Bitter???
Is SNPA an ESB, a Best, Special or Premium Bitter...I think not.
Once again, calibrate against commercial examples.

K


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## Mantis (6/1/10)

Oddly enough, I bought a couple of JS pale ales today and my wife and I tasted it.

I then got a bottle of my pale ale I made back in Sept with JW trad ale and 8% each of wheat and rye. Bittered with POR and Cascade with amarillo at flame out. 

We both tried it and could not pick much difference at all

Might have really stuffed taste buds but I'm pretty happy with this

:icon_offtopic:


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