# Dispensing From Cubes



## Wortgames (28/4/07)

I was having a chat with Johnno today, who still bottles until he can get a keg system up and running.

I told him about the plastic 'pressure barrels' they use in the UK, which would be a much more convenient way to serve low-pressure ales etc than bottling. Unfortunately they don't seem to come up very often here in Aus though.

But it got me to thinking, if we could get hold of the right valves, what would stop us using a plain old cube instead of a pressure barrel? If we are talking about ales with a fairly low carbonation and pressure level, then I doubt we'd be in danger of bursting the cube. In fact, you could get 1.5 volumes into 5C wort with around 1.7psi. I bet you couldn't burst a cube with pressure that low.

The pressure injectors for the UK plastic barrels generally have a 'spunding' valve built in. Basically it's a very simple pressure release valve, so you can naturally carbonate the beer and any excess pressure is simply vented. Once your beer starts to lose carbonation and pour too slowly, you pop a sparklet cylinder into the dispenser and it replaces the pressure, and vents any excess. I think you need 2 or 3 sparklet cylinders to dispense a full barrel, which doesn't seem unreasonable.

If we could get hold of the spunding valves by themselves, and fit one along with a car tyre valve to the cube lid, then we could do this quite simply with the CO2 injectors that some of us are already using. Naturally carbonate to start with, and then give it an occasional squirt from the injector to keep it under a low but positive pressure.

It strikes me as potentially a very cheap interim measure between bottling and a full draught setup for those that drink British style ales.

Any thoughts?


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## goatherder (28/4/07)

Sounds promising.

There was a howto on making a spunding valve in BYO a few months back. I'll see if I can dig it up.


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## Gerard_M (28/4/07)

The 15 litre casks like the one we use for the Brewers Selection Wort Kits are very easy to use for this purpose. Simply drill a hole and put a normal fermentor tap on it. A few years back we put 15 litres of Porter in one with sugar to carbonate, & put it in a cupboard for 3 weeks. Actually I think we put it in an Esky with the lid on just in case of a messy accident. Anyway after 3 weeks it went in the fridge for about 8 hours. The 15 litres of Porter was served through the tap, and tasted great, & looked like a cask conditioned ale. Cask was finished quicker than we thought. 
During secondary the cask puffed up pretty big. After about 10 days we were a bit too scared too look. The plastic handled it without a drama.

Cheers
Gerard


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## Fingerlickin_B (28/4/07)

This is a very cool idea and something I'd be toying with (in my mind only to date) for a while  

I was stuck on the idea of converting a keg to do it...the cube idea is great & will most certainly be tried out by me in the near future :super: 

Thanks for answering and helping out WG (and coincidentally myself) guys :beer: 

PZ.


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## warrenlw63 (29/4/07)

The idea sort of got addressed here.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to do. :unsure: With something like a tyre valve fitted to the lid to relieve excessive pressure to to charge with some gas.

Warren -


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## delboy (29/4/07)

yes you can get all the bits you want from the happy brewer in the uk there are plenty of brew shops online in the uk and they will mail order to australia and as most parts are small and plastict they dont cost a lot and post is fairly cheap as well.

or if you are cunning you could as ross to get a suitcase full of bits when he gose next time.

DELBOY

 TAKE A LOOK AT THE LINK ??? is this what you are looking for ?http://www.zen37219.zen.co.uk/


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## Wortgames (29/4/07)

Somthing like this is really all you'd need. It's a simple 2-way valve arrangement that can be mounted through a plastic lid, it vents excess pressure from the container and allows you to inject gas at the same time. You could also mount a tyre valve and use a handheld CO2 inflator, but you need a release valve.

I'd be very wary of relying on manual intervention as you'd need to check it every day to avoid a big mess, but with a spunding valve you can set and forget. It also makes it easy to repressurise - you squirt gas in until you hear it venting through the valve, then you know you are at max pressure.

The valve shown vents at around 10psi. I haven't done any tests yet but this might be a bit high for a cube? What do you reckon?


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## Shunty (29/4/07)

I played around with presurising cubes a while back, was blowing up like a baloon at 10psi. I'm sure you could butcher the valve to open at a lower pressure tho


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## delboy (29/4/07)

YES YOU COULD DO THAT 
i pressurized a fermenter up i my quest for this the results wer funny none the less.

1 psi -good .2 psi -good ,3 psi -what was that, 4 psi -i think its, 5 psi- look at the bootom it rocks, 7 psi- ha look mum, 8 psi -arrrr fcuk "boom bang hsssssss"
wheres the lid???? "voice from neighbour over here ya prick" 
that was my attemt at using a fermenter and a similar thing happened when i used a blue water cube from kmart.
so what did learn that day .ummmm no more than 3 psi tops. keep saft guys.
delboy


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## Wortgames (29/4/07)

Shunty said:


> I played around with presurising cubes a while back, was blowing up like a baloon at 10psi. I'm sure you could butcher the valve to open at a lower pressure tho


What do you reckon would be the maximum 'comfortable' pressure for a cube then [edit] Shunty?


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## delboy (29/4/07)

hey there wortgames not sure what PUMY WOULD SAY AS SHUNTY MADE THE COMMENT.

now those valves are great but you would need them to vent off at no more than four psi. can be done just need the correct rubber ring.

del


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## Wortgames (29/4/07)

I reckon a cube might hold a bit more pressure than your average fermenter Delboy, their shape has a bit more structure and strength to it.

Regardless, even 4psi is pretty good for serving. Remember the Poms often have their pressure barrels sitting in ambient temps, if we're talking about putting cubes in a fridge you don't need that much pressure to maintain a bit of sparkle.


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## Shunty (29/4/07)

From memory it was looking dicey at about 5 pound. Probably still got the lid with the tyre valve in it, will have a play if i can track it down

I do have a couple of the mac's fermenters in the shed, might be worth a go as the plastic is a bit stiffer, and the barrel shape might help.... Hmm, i feel an experiment coming on


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## randyrob (29/4/07)

i've often though about this myself, and i think the go would be:

do low natural carbonation in a cube. 
have a pressure relief valve as well as gas snaplock on the lid.
then run a cask breather so the headspace is constantly blanketed with co2 (and the beer doesn't have to be drunk straight away.


Rob.


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## Wortgames (29/4/07)

randyrob said:


> i've often though about this myself, and i think the go would be:
> 
> do low natural carbonation in a cube.
> have a pressure relief valve as well as gas snaplock on the lid.
> then run a cask breather so the headspace is constantly blanketed with co2 (and the beer doesn't have to be drunk straight away.


I don't think you'd even need to worry too much about a cask breather randyrob. As long as you've got a co2 'squirter' of some description (ie, a sparklet dispenser like a bike inflater, or even a Sodastream trigger of some sort) then you just need to give it the occasional squirt. Because we're talking relatively low carbonation levels, I don't think a bit of day-to-day fluctuation is going to be much of a problem.

I definitely agree you'd need to prime the cube with the right amount of sugar and leave it for a week or so, but if you've got the right venting valve than that's not a drama at all. I reckon you'd be able to tell when the pressure is getting a bit low after serving a few pints, so you'd just give it a quick squirt (again, impossible to overdo it because the valve will vent).

That side of things is already tried and tested with the UK pressure barrels anyway - people have been using them like that for years. They did have automatic pressure thingies years ago but apparently they were unreliable and unnecessary. Normally they just use an entire sparklet bulb each time to repressurise.

The only departure from the UK system would be in using lower temperatures and lower pressures. It might take a bit of trial and error to find the best temp for priming and serving - it would defeat the purpose somewhat to prime warm and then move it to the fridge, as most of the gas would have escaped. Perhaps we could even experiment with seeding with a lager yeast to produce some gas at fridge temps.

I really think there's some mileage in this for folks that are sick of bottling but not yet ready for a full draught rig.


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## InCider (29/4/07)

What a great thread! Cubes in the fridge! yes!  

I hope my understanding is Ok.. so here goes:

Natural carbonation during fermentation plus a small amount of priming sugar to boost the PSI in the cube and viola! Only a few weeks to wait for plastic kegs!

Just enough pour (low carbed) and just enough to seem like the ales are not flat.

I'm in. Now to find out where cubes are from...

InCider.


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## randyrob (29/4/07)

> I don't think you'd even need to worry too much about a cask breather randyrob. As long as you've got a co2 'squirter' of some description (ie, a sparklet dispenser like a bike inflater, or even a Sodastream trigger of some sort) then you just need to give it the occasional squirt. Because we're talking relatively low carbonation levels, I don't think a bit of day-to-day fluctuation is going to be much of a problem.



Yes, i agree. 

i was just thinking that even though the tap on these cubes is down the bottom and gravity will play a part
in pouring the beer, you will definately need something to replace the drawn out liquid.



> The only departure from the UK system would be in using lower temperatures and lower pressures. It might take a bit of trial and error to find the best temp for priming and serving - it would defeat the purpose somewhat to prime warm and then move it to the fridge, as most of the gas would have escaped. Perhaps we could even experiment with seeding with a lager yeast to produce some gas at fridge temps.
> 
> I really think there's some mileage in this for folks that are sick of bottling but not yet ready for a full draught rig.



i've nearly been down this path myself but my pitfall while aquiring parts for a was going to the brewshop and seeing all those shiney kegs  

i think if we threw this idea around a bit more we could come up with a mini guide for ppl interested in trying testing the water kegging wise. something like:

1.) where to get parts & costs e.g. tap from this website, cubes are available here etc (so ppl can see straight up how much its going to cost and were to readily get parts)

2.) how to modify lid / make relief valve etc (could be something as simple as a car valve and checking it every day with a tyre pressure guage, releasing pressure if nessesary.

3.) how much sugar to use for priming and amount of time nessesary for conditioning.

4.) how to dispense the beer and how to top up co2 blanket in the cube.

obviously we would need to fine tune this first, i'm happy to give it a go infact my next brew was going to be an english pale ale!

==================

i was thinking i could get a pretty good setup for under $100

something like:

soda stream bottle $11*
soda stream adapter $30*
co2 regulator $50*
15-20 litre cube $hopefully nix (anybody?)
tap $dunno
=========================
TOTAL= 


(* = already purchased)


Rob.


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## randyrob (29/4/07)

WortGames said:


> The valve shown vents at around 10psi. I haven't done any tests yet but this might be a bit high for a cube? What do you reckon?



i'm not really sure, 10psi doesn't really sound like alot to ask. i know someone on here will already know!

very easy to test tho, get a cube drill a hole in the lid, put a car valve in it, grab your air compressor and see how much pressure it takes!

i know doc and sosman have used the pressure sprayers you get from bunnings but those are obvoiusly designed to take a bit of pressure.

Rob.


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## delboy (29/4/07)

yes i know what you mean there wortgames the only thing with a cube i found was the lid stayed on but the under seem split after ballooning at 10 psi.
I was not trying to pee on your parade mate i just would hate to see any one of my bretheran get injured. But in saying all that its a good thing to get this rolling as i don't want to use up a keg on my english beer engine.

I belive good quality hobby shops sell burst valves at diferent pressure relief values. might be worth a look .

come to think of it a prv on a garden sprayer are set to a low psi ????

del


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## Wortgames (29/4/07)

Pressure sprayers would certainly do the trick, but they cost a bit more, need a bit more adaptation, are smaller etc - so I don't think they're a particularly groundbreaking solution for new keggers. The release valves in them would probably be set far too high.

Regarding the CO2 'blanket', again, I don't think you need to worry about it - remember, the cube is going to be under a couple of PSI pressure. Dispensing a glass of beer will reduce the pressure a tiny bit, but you certainly won't have a vacuum to deal with, and the drop in pressure isn't going to be enough to mess up your beer. Once you get down close to atmospheric pressure it's time for another shot of gas to keep the pressure positive.

With the tap, I'd like to see what sort of results we can get with a standard tap. They must be able to take a certain amount of pressure, and even if we have to compare results between a Bunnings tap and a LHBS tap etc I'm sure we'd be able to find a model that can handle the low pressures reliably enough without needing to spend cash on buying a particular type. In fact, the innards of a spring-loaded LHBS tap looks a lot like a 'picnic' tap to me so I don't think our 5 PSI is going to bother it at all.

The object of the exercise (for me anyway) is to see whether we can get someone into 'kegging' for about $50 plus a few scrounged parts.

With the pressure relief valve, I reckon that we could make (or find) something pretty simple that would do the trick. Even a 'pressure cooker' principle with a small weight on top of a vent would do the trick, but it would be good to find something a bit more self-contained. I think 10psi might be stretching it a bit, and if we are talking about refrigerating the cube then something like 5psi would do the trick nicely IMO.

Next week I'll hunt around and see if there's much around in the way of small, cheap pressure release valves that would do the trick. Getting the gas in will be up to the user, but can be something as simple as a car tyre valve - it would depend on the user's CO2 gadgetry.

Then it's just a matter of drilling 2 holes in a cube cap and fitting the valves. It will take a bit of experimentation to figure out the best technique for carbonation, but I'm sure that's not too much of a challenge!


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## randyrob (29/4/07)

mate, i couldn't agree more with everything you've said. you've really hit the nail on the head!


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## Wortgames (29/4/07)

delboy said:


> I was not trying to pee on your parade mate i just would hate to see any one of my bretheran get injured. But in saying all that its a good thing to get this rolling as i don't want to use up a keg on my english beer engine.


No worries Delboy, but the pressure vent I am talking about would release long before the cube got anywhere near bursting. Like I said, 4 or 5 psi would do it at a guess.

I don't think it would be any good with a beer engine - I think they will tend to dribble with any sort of positive pressure. For that you'd need an aspirator (but you could still use a cube of course).

The method I'm talking about relies on having a positive (albeit small) CO2 pressure in the cube to aid in dispensing, carbonation and preservation. As soon as you have any positive CO2 pressure then you really have a modern system rather than a traditional cask.

In a way it is half way between a cask and a keg system - higher pressure than a cask (which has none) but lower than a modern draught system.


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## geoffi (30/4/07)

Funny how these things float into one's mind, then, voila, you discover others have been onto it for a while. 

After reading the "Pale Ale" book (author's name escapes me) it occurred to me that I could use a cube as a cheap, quick and dirty real-ale cask. My understanding is that "real" real ale has no additional gas of any kind apart from that generated by the cask conditioning. So valves and so forth would be unnecessary, as long as the ale was consumed pretty quickly, so this would work perfectly well for a bbq or party or solo drunken bender.

One think I've noticed with using cubes for lagering and ccing, there can be a little leakage through the tap thread, so I'd use some teflon tape there.

As for where to get cubes, if you have to buy them, my recommendation is not to buy them from Kmart/Bunnings etc. Buy a wort kit. You get a cube plus some top-quality wort for an extra $20 or so.


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## craigev (30/4/07)

guys, do you know if strong alcohol like wine can be kept in these cubes or picnic coolers ? since wine especially doesnt require carbonation then it could presumably just be kept in the cooler in the fridge without any co2 or spunding valve ? bit like those wine boxes you get with a plastic tap on that you serve from.



Geoffi said:


> Funny how these things float into one's mind, then, voila, you discover others have been onto it for a while.
> 
> After reading the "Pale Ale" book (author's name escapes me) it occurred to me that I could use a cube as a cheap, quick and dirty real-ale cask. My understanding is that "real" real ale has no additional gas of any kind apart from that generated by the cask conditioning. So valves and so forth would be unnecessary, as long as the ale was consumed pretty quickly, so this would work perfectly well for a bbq or party or solo drunken bender.
> 
> ...


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## oldbugman (30/4/07)

The way that wine is served from a box/bladder "baggie" is that the bag can shrink as the wine leaves.


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## Wortgames (30/4/07)

craige said:


> guys, do you know if strong alcohol like wine can be kept in these cubes or picnic coolers ? since wine especially doesnt require carbonation then it could presumably just be kept in the cooler in the fridge without any co2 or spunding valve ? bit like those wine boxes you get with a plastic tap on that you serve from.



Answered in your other thread


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## delboy (30/4/07)

WORTGAMES ?? idea use a car valve barel in metal you can get them for 5 bucks at the tyre shop .
now remove valve fit metal cap .drill small hole in the side of the valve housing . slice a peice of silicone hose about 7mm and push over the valve casing to just cover the pin hole you just drilled .there is your PRV depending on how tight the silicon hose rubber is around your valve casing .to the amount of pressure it will release. (cheap easy ) and it works .

del


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## Maxt (30/4/07)

As for the taps, you can get non screw in ones. One of my fermenters has this type with a threaded shank, and washers and a plastic locking nut from the inside. You just need to cut the right sized hole in your fermenter, and no amount of pressure would shift it, the cube would explode first.


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## randyrob (30/4/07)

Maxt said:


> As for the taps, you can get non screw in ones. One of my fermenters has this type with a threaded shank, and washers and a plastic locking nut from the inside. You just need to cut the right sized hole in your fermenter, and no amount of pressure would shift it, the cube would explode first.




i've thought about this but don't think it would be a viable option for 2 reasons:
how are you going to get your arm into the tiny lid hole to hold and tighen the nut?
more room for nasties to hide?

Rob.


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## Wortgames (30/4/07)

I don't think you need to use any special type of tap. Hopefully we can use a normal tap screwed into the normal tap fitting, or alternatively, lay the cube down and screw the tap into the lid (there's already a thread there, just needs to be drilled out carefully). You might need to use an extra rubber washer or something to help create a decent seal and keep the tap pointing down, but I don't think that's a major issue.

I'm currently trying to devise a (cheap) method of getting the gas into, and venting the excess pressure out of, the same type of thread as the tap uses.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (30/4/07)

fwiw, the tap on the Rotokeg is fed from a tube thats sits on top of the beer in a float, so it gives you the clear beer from the top. But that might be too hard for home fabrication, as it depends on a reasonable amount of pressure to work, as opposed to a gravity fed tap.


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## Shunty (6/5/07)

Dug out the lid and compressor this afternoon and dumped 10psi into a cube. It aint pretty;











and no, it's not a fish-eye lense :blink: 

The tap held up ok, didn't seem to leak any air. one hell of a blast when i opened it, and the cube stayed a little distorted


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## Wortgames (6/5/07)

Would you be happy to have it in the fridge at 5psi Shunty?


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## Shunty (6/5/07)

Not sure yet, trying to find the other tyre inflator with the gauge that goes down that low. It was looking ok, then all of a sudden started deforming - hopefully 5psi will be lower than when it started to baloon


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## v8r (6/5/07)

great job doing the experiment shunty! i too have been thinking of this recently as well.. would maybe one of the 10 or 15L cubes be a little stronger due to less sidewall? also, has anyone experiance using paintball co2 canisters for gassing? just throwing it out there....


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## Doogiechap (6/5/07)

WortGames said:


> I don't think you need to use any special type of tap. Hopefully we can use a normal tap screwed into the normal tap fitting, or alternatively, lay the cube down and screw the tap into the lid (there's already a thread there, just needs to be drilled out carefully). You might need to use an extra rubber washer or something to help create a decent seal and keep the tap pointing down, but I don't think that's a major issue.
> 
> I'm currently trying to devise a (cheap) method of getting the gas into, and venting the excess pressure out of, the same type of thread as the tap uses.



The thread is 3/4 BSP. Sorry I can't help you on thread types of PRV's but I recently bought a 3/4 - 1/4 bsp adaptor, a 1/4 male to female mini ball valve, and a 1/4 inch to push fit (John Guest type beer line connector).
I pressureise my fermenter and cubes lightly to filter into my kegs. All up the fitings came to about $11. I'm guessing that you could add a 1/4 BSP tee fitting before the bal valve and adapt a PRV to that ?
I'll muster a piccy up in the near future if that helps  
Cheers
Doug


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## Wortgames (6/5/07)

Yep, well done Shunty for making the effort and posting the pics (didn't mean to sound rude before!)

v8r I think a smaller cube would definitely be stronger, but I don't think it really matters all that much - I reckon the trick here is to stick to around 5psi which will give us something like 1.8 volumes at 5C - this is a perfectly normal level of carbonation for a lot of ales, technically a bit on the low side for most lagers but still perfectly drinkable IMO. The point here is to make a cheap, easy dispense system that can do away with bottling for day-to-day drinking, and which will use minimal gas and create minimal problems when dispensing.

Paintball cylinders are very similar to Sodastream cylinders - so they are perfectly usable, but not necessarily easier (or cheaper to get parts for etc).

I haven't had any luck finding cheap, commercially available release valves - so I'm going to try and get hold of a stainless tyre valve tomorrow. I reckon with a bit of trial and error, we can come up with a cheap, consistent release valve by using a specific hole size and a specific type of rubber hose. I've got some offcuts here to try.

One thing I've noticed is that those CO2 inflators can vary enormously in price - has anyone found a really good deal on them?


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## poppa joe (6/5/07)

Anyone tried the co2 Cream dispensers.? Or the small soda type thinggys...
Maybe the wife wouldnt miss it..??  Adapt one.
Cheers
PJ


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## boingk (6/5/07)

I'm thinking of doing a brews secondary fermentation in a demijohn...a 5L glass jug basically. I'd stopper the top and leave it for a week as normal, and refridgerate 2 days before needed. Excellent party idea I think, just have it on the table and let people help themselves [glasses only, of course].

Another idea would be to do this same thing, but have a centre-holed bung in the top with a line going through the centre hole and to around 3 to 5cm off the bottom of the jug. Clamp the top of the line, then do secondary as normal in the vesel, possibly 10% more carbonation then normal so as to give it a bit of 'oomph' out of the system. Refridgerate after secondary for several days prior to use so the yeast settles and compacts. Unclamp line, and lead the end into a glass! Impromptu kegging setup for something like $20 - I'm definitely giving it a shot...I've been thinking about it for a while.

I'll be speaking the the homebrew store guy soon on the suitability of a demijohn for secondary fermentation [ie pressure resistance].


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## Wortgames (7/5/07)

boingk said:


> I'll be speaking the the homebrew store guy soon on the suitability of a demijohn for secondary fermentation [ie pressure resistance].


Demijohns have no pressure resistance at all - you might be able to squeeze a couple of psi into one but when it fails someone's going to get hurt. Plastic cubes aren't pressure vessels either, but burst plastic is a lot less likely to cause harm than burst glass.

I really wouldn't risk it boingk.


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## boingk (7/5/07)

Cheers wortgames - I'll keep it in mind  

Maybe one of those VB mini-kegs that were going around a few years ago? I heard they're refillable.


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## Wortgames (11/5/07)

OK, I think we may be onto something guys.

First, get yourself a standard car tyre valve - $2.99 for two from Autobarn. Then drill a 14mm hole in your cube lid. The packet says 11.5mm hole but they are dreaming.






Next drill a 3mm hole in the valve stem, just up from where it flares at the base, but not too far up - otherwise you'll hit the bottom of the valve inside. Make sure you drill through the brass inner as well so that you have a clear hole all the way through to the centre. Then pull the valve through the hole in the lid:





Next get a few inches of rubber gas tubing, like the stuff you had on your bunsen burners at school. It's about 7mm ID. I got mine from Gameco in Preston, but you should be able to find it (or something similar) elsewhere. You might be able to find something in an auto parts supplier. It just needs to be about the right size and have good stretchiness, there is room for fine adjustment later. Then cut yourself a small piece about 15mm long, and slide it over the valve stem (a spot of dish liquid will help). It should be a nice tight fit. Find a washer and a nut to fit the thread, to keep the rubber tubing in place. I'm not exactly sure where my nut came from originally but there's a good chance it is from a bicycle tube, so if you are having trouble finding one try your nearest cycle repairer.





...and basically you are all set.

You will need to tweak it to get the backpressure just right - adjustments are made by changing the length of the tubing slightly. A longer length will be tighter and hold more pressure, and a shorter length will be a bit looser obviously. You might even be able to use a diagonal cut on the bottom end of the tubing to get some kind of adjustment from simply rotating it - but you'll only be able to do this while the dish liquid is relatively fresh, after a few minutes all that tight rubber gets pretty grippy.

From my experiments, I reckon about 3-6psi results in a firm cube with gentle bulging of the flat sides but no serious distortion. It should still sit flat on a surface. Any more than about 10psi will begin to seriously distort the cube, which agrees with what Shunty found - but the objective here is only to maintain a small amount of positive pressure to keep a base level of condition in the beer.

Using one of these it should be easy to naturally prime in the cube, with any excess pressure buildup venting safely. Then you just need to use a bike tyre inflator to give it an occasional squirt of CO2 to maintain positive pressure as you empty the cube (or if you're feeling really minimalist, you could try just adding a bit more sugar from time to time). You'll probably learn to feel what the pressure is like with a gentle squeeze, but this release mechanism (or 'spunding valve') means you shouldn't get into too much trouble.

I have tested it under water to see if there are any leaks, and after a bit of trial and error getting the backpressure right it seems to work perfectly. You need to make sure that your lid and tap is tight, and you might need to file down any moulding burrs to help them seal properly. You might also need to add an extra rubber washer to your tap, so you can keep it tight and vertical at the same time.

I tried a couple of different types of taps, and both the common white tap (with the 'B' shaped handle) and the black one (with the teardop-shaped handle) seem to handle the pressure just fine. I have also tried a yellow spring-top tap but it has a tendency to drip very slowly - not sure whether this would be universal or just mine (edit: randyrob seems to have the same type of tap in red and it looks lke it's OK).

Haven't served a brew through it yet, as I haven't got a bike inflater (I was using compressed air) but hopefully sometime in the next couple of weeks I'll be able to give it a trial run with real beer.

So we could be talking about a kegging (casking? cubing?) system for the cost of a cube, a gas dispenser, some parts and maybe an hour of farting around. By my reckoning it should be good for up to about 2 volumes of carbonation, but in reality it would probably be nearer 1.5 given that you wouldn't want to keep it permanently at its maximum pressure. I think that's still perfectly drinkable for day-to-day drinking (unless you like really fizzy lagers), and for the price I reckon it has to be worth a shot.

Beats bottling :beer:


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## Airgead (11/5/07)

WortGames said:


> OK, I think we may be onto something guys.



Dude, that is a thing of beauty.

I'm brewing up some authentic 15/1600's gruit ales for my historical fencing club's next prize fight. I've been trying to work out how to do authentic cask dispensing without having to get an authentic cask. This looks like it will do the trick perfectly. A bit of priming sugar to get 1-1.5 volumes and serve straight from the cube. No risk of overpressure which is what I was worried about (don't want a split cube and spilt beer). In my case I can just crack the lid open a bit when gravity dispensing. Using air to fill the headspace is a ) authentic and b ) not an issue as the whole thing will be gone in an hour or 2.

Great stuff.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - Actually its even better than I first thought as with that pressure relief valve in the lid I should be able to ferment in the cube as well. The valve should bleed off any pressure above 1 1/2 volumes and will leave the beer carbonated to that level at the end of fermentation with no need for a separate priming step. Very 1500s ;-)


----------



## bugwan (11/5/07)

Fantastic post Neil! Really well thought out. This system basically brings cask ales within reach of the brewer on a budget.

Where do people get their bike-pump attachments for CO2, are they readily available?


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## Stuster (11/5/07)

Wow! Great work, Wortgames :super: 

Nice clear write up for the tool-phobic like me. Will be trying this soon. :chug: 

One question to save me doing anything to set this up.  Where would be the best place to get a CO2 inflator? Bike shop? Evilbay?


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## Wortgames (11/5/07)

Thanks guys.

You can find the inflaters on eBay or in bike shops. Some of the US (and probably Aussie) homebrew shops are selling them as 'keg chargers' with corny QD's attached, not sure if these are interchangeable with the tyre valve or whether it is a 'factory mod'.

I have seen a heap of different models out there, and they seem to vary from about $25 up to about $50 (probably more if you want the Italian carbon/graphite/lycra model with built in leg shaver).

It would be good to hear from any folks that have them already, apparently some models are great at holding unused gas for weeks and others tend to leak out an entire cylinder pretty quickly. In truth it probably wouldn't matter that much, I think the Brits usually just unload an entire CO2 bulb every time they charge their pressure barrels, but if you are spendng the money anyway it would be nice to know that you can dispense the gas as required.


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## geoffi (11/5/07)

Wow. Great post, Wortgames. I'm not exactly a handy-bloke, but even I could follow that procedure. Got a few big bbqs coming up and this might just be the ticket for dispensing some realish ale to the thirsty throng. Definitely going to investigate this one. I notice there are plenty of those C02 inflators on eBay, plus cheap gas bulbs.

I have a few different types of cube. I think the squat 15L is the way to go. The taller ones that St Peters use seem much thinner-walled.

Something that might be handy is one of those plastic spanners they use for tightening cube lids, to make sure it's really on firmly.


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## Wortgames (11/5/07)

Airgead said:


> Edit - Actually its even better than I first thought as with that pressure relief valve in the lid I should be able to ferment in the cube as well. The valve should bleed off any pressure above 1 1/2 volumes and will leave the beer carbonated to that level at the end of fermentation with no need for a separate priming step. Very 1500s ;-)



It opens up a whole lot of possibilities doesn't it? It's basically a 'beer machine' if you want it to be, just dump in your kit, water and yeast, and start serving draught ale the following week :beer: 

I guess it would take a bit of experimentation with fermentation / carbonation / serving temperatures, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. It wouldn't be on the slurry long enough to suffer from autolysis, and if you used a nice clumpy yeast that stuck to the bottom of the cube you'd probably get reasonably clear beer out of the thing.

One thing that might be a factor though is that presumably, elevated CO2 levels are as unpleasant to yeast as elevated alcohol levels, in that they are both waste products. This might have some affect on the fermentation, and some yeasts might respond better than others.


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## Ross (11/5/07)

Top work Neil... :super: 
I was planning on butchering a couple of 12L kegs for my real ale draught system, but just might go with your idea or variation of...Definately food for though...gotta love this site  ...

Cheers ross


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## delboy (11/5/07)

nice one neil :super: 

looks as if post 27 helped there as thats all i do . and they work a treat and i have also found that the small 15 ltr fermenters are thicker than the 30 ltr ones andhold the pressure better if you want to go a bit harder. :beer: 
by the way if any one is inrterested you can realy do a nice mod job on a picadilly water p.e.t bottle as well there great for low pressure cask ales and tuff as nuts use the same snap on lid with 2 holes in it 1 for a vent and gas up valve and the other with a treaded dip tube and a tyre valve cap on it and grommet. refridgerate ya swill and then use an engine to pump it out or a picnic fauset .and they hold 15 ltrs?  



del


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## Airgead (11/5/07)

WortGames said:


> It opens up a whole lot of possibilities doesn't it? It's basically a 'beer machine' if you want it to be, just dump in your kit, water and yeast, and start serving draught ale the following week :beer:
> 
> I guess it would take a bit of experimentation with fermentation / carbonation / serving temperatures, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. It wouldn't be on the slurry long enough to suffer from autolysis, and if you used a nice clumpy yeast that stuck to the bottom of the cube you'd probably get reasonably clear beer out of the thing.
> 
> One thing that might be a factor though is that presumably, elevated CO2 levels are as unpleasant to yeast as elevated alcohol levels, in that they are both waste products. This might have some affect on the fermentation, and some yeasts might respond better than others.



I have heard that elevated co2 can be a problem with fermentation but if I do what they did with the old kegs - leave the bung out till fermentation was nearly done then bung it up to carbonate during the last few days of fermentation... If I get a rubber cork the same size as the hole for the pressure relief valve I can use an airlock till its almost finished then screw in the pressure valve and let it carbonate up. The valve means I don't need to be as clever as the old brewers as I don't need to judge the timing so accurately. there is no risk of over carbonation.

I don't even care much about clarity. The guys want an authentic 1599 experience (the date the manual describing the sword fighting style we study was published) and I'm sure beers weren't particularly clear back in those days. I'll also be serving at 12-14 degrees as they hadn't invented the fridge back then. Just like iin old times it will come out of the cellar and sit on the bench warming up to room temp till its finished.

Mind you if I was doing it for myself I'd let it settle cold for a few weeks. The tap on a cube us usually an inch or so off the bottom so that should leave it high enough to avoid most of the sludge. Interesting for a picnic or BBQ... you could probably rig something up with a small cube, large esky and a length of tubing to a picnic tap that would work quite well and keep the beer cold as well.

Cheers
Dave


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## delboy (11/5/07)

yes dave 

its good to see ya olde brewer at heart it sound as if you have read so camra articals as well .
when i went to the bedford beer festival in the UK a few years back we were served an ale that was made the old way over a fire place and that before all the modern stuff was available the recipe was a medievil ale which i guess would have been megaswill in them days it was cloudy ,12 deg c and was full of flavours that one cant describe .it was loked after buy the cellarman and was served from the cask via a wooden tap in tankerds 
at 3 pound a pint it was certified by camra and was real ale in it truest form i was very nice as well ! ye olde knights would have been pleased with ye ale reborn .

del


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## Wortgames (11/5/07)

delboy said:


> looks as if post 27 helped there as thats all i do . and they work a treat and i have also found that the small 15 ltr fermenters are thicker than the 30 ltr ones andhold the pressure better if you want to go a bit harder. :beer:



Yep cheers delboy, it has been a group effort :beer:




Airgead said:


> If I get a rubber cork the same size as the hole for the pressure relief valve I can use an airlock till its almost finished then screw in the pressure valve and let it carbonate up.



You really wouldn't want to remove the actual valve once you've got it set up right. Getting the pressure release to operate just the way you want takes a bit of fiddling, and once you've got it right you'd probably want to leave it well alone.

You'd be better off just getting a spare cap, and putting an airlock and grommet into it. That's actually what I use for primary fermentation anyway. A lot of 'plastics and storage' type places sell the caps by themselves, they are only a couple of bucks from memory.


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## delboy (11/5/07)

just in i just rang the local physio here and he sells silicon rubber tubing used for exercising and stretching for rehab and it has a nice ID as well as being soft enough to use as a relief valve rubber???

might be an alternative there neil????

delboy


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## geoffi (11/5/07)

Just found two new tyre valves in the shed...looks like a fun project for the weekend.


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## geoffi (11/5/07)

Here's an interesting thing.

I've just found that an airlock grommet fits very snugly onto one of these valves. It would nicely cover the little hole in the shaft. Whether it would hold in the pressure enough to be effective...I'll see tomorrow by pumping some air into it.


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## geoffi (11/5/07)

Just took a look at Graham Sanders' article about converting plastic spray containers into mini kegs. Similar principle. He states, though, that you need to use crome-plated or stainless steel valves. I can't work out why that should be. Any thoughts?


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## randyrob (11/5/07)

Hey Guys,

Pat on the Back Wortgames, A very nice Guide.

so far i've been shopping picked up:
2 x Car Valves, Washes and Nuts $5.00 from the local Tyre Shop.
1 x 25 Litre Cube from a local mechanic $free (it was used for distilled water?)
1 x Tap $5.00 (the pull type as compared to the twist type used in fermenters)
i haven't had any luck so far finding a suitable tubing yet :angry: 

TOTAL=$10.00

I will be doing an AG English Pale Ale tomorrow morning (Saturday) using 
nottingham yeast for a quick ferment and then Naturally Carbonating in the "Real Ale Cube"
next weekend :super: 

What is the go since i picked up a 25 Litre cube how much head space should i leave when i fill
it up for secondary? i was thinking make a 23 Litre batch and leave 2 litres of head space just like
filling a giant bottle?

also anyone got any idea on priming rates?

Many Thanks Rob.


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## randyrob (12/5/07)

Hey Guys,

Here's my one.

Pressure Relief Valve




Pouring




and a piccy of the whole thing.




Initial Tests seem promising.

Rob.


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## Weizguy (12/5/07)

Has anyone considered using a cut-down bottling stem and/or valve, modified with a sparkler head for that creamy finish to the beer?

Just a thought from Seth Enterprises.

Seth (CEO) out


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## goatherder (12/5/07)

Geoffi said:


> Just took a look at Graham Sanders' article about converting plastic spray containers into mini kegs. Similar principle. He states, though, that you need to use crome-plated or stainless steel valves. I can't work out why that should be. Any thoughts?



Maybe the rubber taste?

I tried a while back to make a carbonation cap for soft drinks using the rubber tyre valves. I found they transferred the rubber flavour to the drink really easily on contact. I dumped using them as a result. Chrome or SS valves were much harder to find though...


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## Wortgames (12/5/07)

goatherder said:


> Maybe the rubber taste?
> 
> I tried a while back to make a carbonation cap for soft drinks using the rubber tyre valves. I found they transferred the rubber flavour to the drink really easily on contact. I dumped using them as a result. Chrome or SS valves were much harder to find though...



That's possible - it'll be a shame! I wonder if there is some a way to 'passivate' the rubber to remove the odour?

I picked up a couple of chromed valve stems from an alloy wheel supplier - they are threaded along the full length though which might make it harder to get a good seal. They also lack the taper which helps to give this design its adjustment. No doubt they can be made to work, but it will probably be trickier.


Good effort Rob, that was quick - that red tap looks exactly like the yellow one I tried, but I got drips from that. If yours is fine that's a good sign!


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## geoffi (12/5/07)

goatherder said:


> Maybe the rubber taste?
> 
> I tried a while back to make a carbonation cap for soft drinks using the rubber tyre valves. I found they transferred the rubber flavour to the drink really easily on contact. I dumped using them as a result. Chrome or SS valves were much harder to find though...





I'd be surprised if such a small amount of rubber could affect the flavour of that much beer (15L or more).


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## goatherder (12/5/07)

Geoffi said:


> I'd be surprised if such a small amount of rubber could affect the flavour of that much beer (15L or more).



I agree - it was noticeable in 2 litres of water but I didn't test it with beer. I think there is a good chance there would be no actual contact with the rubber if you are careful with the cube, shouldn't be a problem.


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## Wortgames (13/5/07)

I just did a bit of googling, and apparently rubbery tastes can be reduced with a soak in coke or citric acid. Not sure how this would affect the brass bits, but's it's an option to try if it does prove to be a problem.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (13/5/07)

Nice work.
On the subject of topping up the co2, why not fit another inflation valve to the cube, then use a tyre inflation chuck connected to your gas bottle reg to top up, saves buying a co2 bulb kit. 

Rob
3 grams of dextrose per litre would be enough to carb to English ale standard.


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## geoffi (13/5/07)

I just tested out my cubecask. I followed the instructions as per Wortgames' post, but used an airlock grommet for the relief valve.

I fitted a red snap tap, quarter filled the cube with water, and pumped in some air to see what happened.

Perfect. No leaks at all. The cube swelled and held, the water came out with a rush.

Now to get the CO2 source happening...


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## Airgead (14/5/07)

WortGames said:


> You'd be better off just getting a spare cap, and putting an airlock and grommet into it. That's actually what I use for primary fermentation anyway. A lot of 'plastics and storage' type places sell the caps by themselves, they are only a couple of bucks from memory.


Wortgames

Yep. I have a bunch of spare caps lying around at home anyway. Even though its not what I wrote.. thats what I was thinking when I wrote it.

Cheers
Dave


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## warrenlw63 (14/5/07)

randyrob said:


> also anyone got any idea on priming rates?
> 
> Many Thanks Rob.



Rob, as a possible experiment re; plastic cube priming rates you could fill the cube with 23 litres of water. Add say 70g of sugar and a packet of dried yeast and just leave it to sit for a week or so. Should give you a visual/rough indicator of the carbonation you'll get without the risk of your beer going arse-up or exploding in the cube. :beerbang: 

Fantastic thread guys. Reading it with a vested interest.  

Edit: Haven't read this thread in it's entirety so if somebody else has suggested the water/yeast/sugar priming test apologies in advance.

Warren -


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## 0M39A (14/5/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Rob, as a possible experiment re; plastic cube priming rates you could fill the cube with 23 litres of water. Add say 70g of sugar and a packet of dried yeast and just leave it to sit for a week or so. Should give you a visual/rough indicator of the carbonation you'll get without the risk of your beer going arse-up or exploding in the cube. :beerbang:
> 
> Fantastic thread guys. Reading it with a vested interest.
> 
> ...



Good idea, but i was thinking pretty much every beer i have made already has some level of carbonation just from the primary ferment (albeit not very much), but still enough to be noticeable. perhaps go with a little more priming sugar than what you normally would do just to be sure.


----------



## randyrob (14/5/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Rob, as a possible experiment re; plastic cube priming rates you could fill the cube with 23 litres of water. Add say 70g of sugar and a packet of dried yeast and just leave it to sit for a week or so. Should give you a visual/rough indicator of the carbonation you'll get without the risk of your beer going arse-up or exploding in the cube. :beerbang:
> 
> Fantastic thread guys. Reading it with a vested interest.
> 
> ...




Heya Warren,

good thinking 99, i'll have a crack at that when i get home! 

Thanks Rob.


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## randyrob (14/5/07)

Hey Guys,

grabbed myself a connector.





hooked it up to my regulator/sodastream bottle.




wound my reg up to 5psi.




it's seems to be holding pressure but the whole cube is very baloon like :blink: 

Rob.


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## randyrob (14/5/07)

Here is my 25L cube with 5psi, it is made of much thicker plastic than the last but is still quite swolen.




Rob.


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## berazafi (14/5/07)

why dont some of you do a test, buy a container, fill it to the brim with water (extremly important) put it somewere so when it ruptures your not in the firing zone, then wind it up

Then post the make and model and failed pressure

NB please please please make sure that there is no space for air (water doesnt compress so when it ruptures it wont expand


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## oldbugman (14/5/07)

try with a 16L cube, much more rugged.


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## randyrob (14/5/07)

OldBugman said:


> try with a 16L cube, much more rugged.



Hey Mate,

was just thinking that! 
i've just filled my 25L one with 23L of water / 70 grams of sugar and dried yeast as warren suggested
so i'll see how that goes.

i don't think the aim of this game is to see how high we can pressurise these cubes but what is
an acceptable "safe" level of carbonation.

Rob.

P.s. i'd also like to note that @ 5psi the water in the cube was absolutely bucketing out when i opened up the tap to pour a pint.

i'm guessing around 3 psi would be the go carbonation wise.


----------



## randyrob (14/5/07)

0M39A said:


> Good idea, but i was thinking pretty much every beer i have made already has some level of carbonation just from the primary ferment (albeit not very much), but still enough to be noticeable. perhaps go with a little more priming sugar than what you normally would do just to be sure.



i've read that at the end of normal fermentation, beer contains about 1 volume of CO2.
and English Style Beers are generally 1.5-2 volume of C02.


----------



## berazafi (14/5/07)

randyrob said:


> Hey Mate,
> 
> was just thinking that!
> i've just filled my 25L one with 23L of water / 70 grams of sugar and dried yeast as warren suggested
> ...





To find out what safe leval of carbonation is, you need to find the breaking strain of the cube is then find a percentage of that. (that you are comftable takes into account aging).



Its not wise to find at 5psi it holds, but not to know that at 5.5psi it gives way, if its full of gas 5.5psi is alot of energy stored and could potentially be deadly 



I work with pressure testing at work, so just trying to provide a little saftey to the exersise


----------



## randyrob (14/5/07)

berazafi said:


> To find out what safe leval of carbonation is, you need to find the breaking strain of the cube is then find a percentage of that. (that you are comftable takes into account aging).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heya Berazafi,

now that you've explained it, that makes total sense  

it is going to vary from cube to cube as some are thicker walled and some are designed slightly differently.
but if we would find an acceptable guideline i think that would be the go!

Rob.


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## geoffi (14/5/07)

Well folks, I've "kegged" my first cubecask brew.

Whatever else, it beats the shit out of bottling.

15L of best bitter, primed with 40g of dextrose. Cube fitted with a modified tyre valve, airlock grommet covering relief valve hole.

All systems go.

Except...yet to find the CO2 source. What the frick, why not jump in and get things going and sort out the details later.

I can get my hands on an old Soda Stream unit with a gas bottle. I think it's about 10 years old. Does anyone know if you can still get (or refill) the bottle used by these older models? I was at Kmart this arv and they seemed to be selling a new type of SS unit.


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## delboy (14/5/07)

you guys should go on "MYTHBUSTERS" or better still get them to do it and you dont waste your money or get hurt .

or if you want do it like the "jackass" movies and sit on the cube while testing then post it in the funny section on the forum?

no but seriously your cube should get to around 16-20 psi before the seem gives way .also you will want to see how many times you can fill your cube at the % you want it at because you need to factor in fatigue rates as well.

i blew the seem apart on a kmart cube 20ltr at 16 psi bloody messwy cause water gose every where so do it in the drive way and lock the kids inside cause when they split they spilt .

and it is the seem that went first on mine. i tryed this a year or so ago as i didn't have kegs back then.

cubes do work a treat with beer engines though you just transfure from primary to secondary with 70g of sugar for priming seal and set releif valve in place and connect top tap after 28 days to beer engine and use a bike co2 pump with a few squirts to prevent a vaccume happening when pumping.

delboy


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## Wortgames (14/5/07)

I should point out that my figure of 5psi was based on the gauge on my air compressor, which could be pretty inaccurate at these low pressures.

What I found was that at about 10psi (by my gauge), the cube would no longer sit nicely on a flat surface, and the 'notch' in the base (the bit that accomodates the handle of the cube underneath when they're stacked) started to try and invert itself.

The cube I used was the same as randyrob's first one, ie not the strongest type.


Geoffi, apparently BigW are the only place now that will exchange the old SodaStream cylinders, but I think time is running out so it may be worth trying to do the swap even if you still have gas left.


----------



## geoffi (14/5/07)

delboy said:


> you guys should go on "MYTHBUSTERS" or better still get them to do it and you dont waste your money or get hurt .




Waste money?

So far I'm in the red $2.95.

Oh, the pain!!!!


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## Lukes (15/5/07)

Great thread.
I CC'd a lager in a plastic cube for 3 months a few years back. It fully puffed and I was always thinking I would come home to find it all over the garage floor.
It never did.

I do a similar thing with the 2 ltr PET bottles and just pickle the tyre valves.
I have not noticed any strange flavor from the rubber but I do store them upright.







I got this connector made up and it's the same as a gas post on a keg with a tyre vale filler on the other end (as you can see it got a bit close to the new sanitizer).






With say a short life span wheat beer (one week to ferment and an afternoon to be enjoyed).

I will ferment in primary to FG, fill 10 or more PET bottles, chill to almost zero, force carb and start to drink the next day.

Cheers, Luke


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## Wortgames (15/5/07)

Lukes said:


> I got this connector made up and it's the same as a gas post on a keg with a tyre vale filler on the other end (as you can see it got a bit close to the new sanitizer).



That's perfect Lukes - where did you get the tyre inflater bit?

Did you have to get anything machined specially or did the threads match?


----------



## Lukes (15/5/07)

WortGames said:


> That's perfect Lukes - where did you get the tyre inflater bit?
> 
> Did you have to get anything machined specially or did the threads match?



WG, 
It came from The U.S.A.
The bloke that makes the Crankensteins mills (not the owner) machined it up and shipped it over.
He was selling them on evil bay with 1/2 a doz caps but it was a while ago.

Should be able to get something here but I have never looked.

- Luke


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## berazafi (15/5/07)

You should be able to make one from a tyre inflator and a JG fitting, then just put a tee in your gas line and run it to the inflator, they self seal so no gas will leak


----------



## maltedhopalong (23/5/07)

What an excellent thread!

I just bought a 15L cube from bummings last night and i'm excited about the possibilities!

So my question is, if I can naturally carbonate a brew in a coke bottle, surely my 15L cube will be able to take that kinda pressure. (I have no idea what "psi" that would be tho...)

So could I just naturally carbonate with the same proportion of sugar that I'd use for bottling? And when the pressure gets low (i.e. beer doesn't "spurt" out of the tap) I could just open the lid, chuck in a smidge (say 1 carb drop per litre of beer left) of dex and leave it on the bench for a few days?


----------



## maltedhopalong (23/5/07)

Oh and also, I bought a 25L water container from bummings last night as well, very similar to a fermenter, except it has a smaller lid.

Has anyone considered using a fermenter in the same way?


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## geoffi (23/5/07)

maltedhopalong said:


> What an excellent thread!
> 
> I just bought a 15L cube from bummings last night and i'm excited about the possibilities!
> 
> So my question is, if I can naturally carbonate a brew in a coke bottle, surely my 15L cube will be able to take that kinda pressure. (I have no idea what "psi" that would be tho...)



A PET bottle is designed specifically to take those pressures. A cube is designed to take ungassed liquids. I have tested them and they do hold pressure well, but I wouldn't push it too far. British ales should work a treat in a cube. I'm not planning to serve a Hefeweizen from one any time soon.



> So could I just naturally carbonate with the same proportion of sugar that I'd use for bottling? And when the pressure gets low (i.e. beer doesn't "spurt" out of the tap) I could just open the lid, chuck in a smidge (say 1 carb drop per litre of beer left) of dex and leave it on the bench for a few days?



Well, I suppose you could do that. But it sounds like a pain in the arse to wait around for extra carbonation. You'll risk spoiling the beer as well I'd say. I'm setting mine up with a Soda Stream unit and might get a cheapie CO2 bike inflator as well for backup.

I've also bought and modified a couple of 5L pressure sprayers ($9 each -- how do they make, ship and sell something like that for $9?). I think these should theoretically take more pressure than the cubes, as they are very thick plastic. (I needed to countersink the hole for the valve a couple of mm because of the thickness.) They also fit into a fridge without too many dramas and are easier to carry.

BTW, I would never buy an empty cube from Bummings or anybody. Buy a wort kit instead. For about $15 extra you'll get an all grain brew to boot.


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## Stuster (23/5/07)

Geoffi said:


> I'm setting mine up with a Soda Stream unit



How are you going about that? I'm hoping to do the same as I already have a number of SS bottles that are looking for more work.


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## Wortgames (23/5/07)

A cube or a fermenter will be able to handle NOTHING LIKE the pressure a coke bottle can! Soft drink (PET) bottles are extremely strong and are desgined to withstand a lot of internal pressure (edit: what geoffi said!)

Cubes and fermenters will begin to deform with just about the slightest bit of pressure.

You could certainly try it with a fermenter if you have a spare one, I imagine it would handle the low pressures we are talking about just as well as a cube, but cubes are generally cheaper (if not free).

Basically you just want enough pressure to make the container bulge a tiny bit and feel firm to the touch. Any more than that and you risk leaking and/or bursting. This is a lot less than normal 'carbonation' pressure, so I wouldn't use the same amount of sugar as when bottling - just enough to create a bit of sparkle in the beer.

A this stage you will need to experiment for yourself, I don't think many people have actually served a brew this way yet so we're all just learning.

The most important thing is to make sure your release valve is venting properly.


----------



## geoffi (23/5/07)

Stuster said:


> How are you going about that? I'm hoping to do the same as I already have a number of SS bottles that are looking for more work.



This is where I got the idea.

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Gear/GSa...CheapKegs.shtml

Very simple stuff. You just use one of those tyre inflator gizmos with some gas line back to the SS unit.

No doubt there are other methods, but this is the simplest and cheapest I could find for day-to-day use. I worked out that one SS gas bottle is the equivalent of about 20 16g bulbs. Way better value for money. The inflator and bulb system might be the go for taking the keg to a party etc, though.


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## maltedhopalong (23/5/07)

So what I"m getting out of this is that if you want to go to all that trouble of making a PRV and of making up various doo-dads to connect your cube to a soda stream, it MIGHT work ONCE but (and this is my presmption...) the cube will be weaker and will continue to get weaker everytime you repeat the process...

So what do I do with my cube??? haha. Damn, I wish there was a way to make this work, it would've been great!!! The problem is that it's just not practical unless you are going to drink the whole lot in one hit.


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## Wortgames (23/5/07)

I don't see why it will only work once?

You need to put some effort into making sure your valve works correctly, and vents pressure BEFORE the cube comes to any harm, but it is costing you less than 2 dollars to build so surely you can afford to put an hour or so of fiddling into getting it right?

Once you have a properly functioning valve, and a method to put gas into it (you can get a bicycle inflater for around $30), you are good to go - as many times as you like. Simply wash out the cube when it is empty and refill it with the next batch. What's so hard about that?

If you are really desperate, and you don't want to fork out for a gas device, then try putting a bit more sugar in when you've lost all your pressure. Personally I think that sounds like a lot of messing around, waiting, risk of infection etc for the sake of a $30 gas dispenser.

There is no reason to drink the entire cube 'in one hit' any more than you need to drink a keg 'in one hit'.


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## maltedhopalong (23/5/07)

I'm confused. Has anyone gassed up a cube (preferably a 15L) via natural carbonation? And did it blow the sucker up?


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## Wortgames (23/5/07)

maltedhopalong said:


> I'm confused. Has anyone gassed up a cube (preferably a 15L) via natural carbonation? And did it blow the sucker up?



 Not if you have a correctly operating pressure release valve...


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## geoffi (23/5/07)

maltedhopalong said:


> I'm confused. Has anyone gassed up a cube (preferably a 15L) via natural carbonation? And did it blow the sucker up?



I have one going as I type. It's been gassing up for a week now. Needs another week I'd say to get to the right level of carbonation for an English bitter, but signs are good. The cube has swollen slightly and is becoming firmer.

As long as you don't push the carbonation too high, and have a reliable tap that can take some pressure and some kind of relief valve built into your system (I used an airlock grommet to cover the small hole I drilled in the tyre valve) you should be in business. Cubes are pretty tough, and if this system works out you should get plenty of use out of it. Just clean it out thoroughly after each use and off you go again.

At this stage we are conducting an experiment. There will no doubt be fine-tuning. There are no guarantees here, but the hypothesis is sound, and initial results are promising. 

As I said before, don't expect to use one of these for a highly carbonated style. You can try, but you'd be braver than I. Think of this setup as more akin to a real-ale cask than to a metal keg. Keep expectations realistic and I'm optimistic this will work well.

BTW, check the whole thread and you'll see that a few of us have inflated these cubes to levels beyond what you'd need for ale carbonation with not explosions or other disasters.


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## Brooksy (23/5/07)

Seeing cubes explode in sunlight when full of fuel is enough for me to steer clear of them for gassing. Sounds like it will eventually lead to a loss of possibly your best brew to date.

Risk management tells me to avoid the risk at all costs. Loss of good beer is too high a risk I'm afraid. (Personal opinion)

Not worried about injury, it's the loss of beer I'm worried about.


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## Doogiechap (23/5/07)

maltedhopalong said:


> Oh and also, I bought a 25L water container from bummings last night as well, very similar to a fermenter, except it has a smaller lid.
> 
> Has anyone considered using a fermenter in the same way?



FWIW I pressurize my fermenter to about 2psi (my Micromatic Reg's scale is pretty useless at the low end of the scale so the figure is approx) for transferring my beer into my kegs via a filter. I find that the fermenter swells a fair amount and at 5psi I would be feeling quite uncomfortable about the safety of my hard earned brew. I also struggle to maintain a good seal with the lid so the cube may be much better in that reagrd too.
Cheers
Doug


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## Ross (23/5/07)

Geoffi said:


> I can get my hands on an old Soda Stream unit with a gas bottle. I think it's about 10 years old. Does anyone know if you can still get (or refill) the bottle used by these older models? I was at Kmart this arv and they seemed to be selling a new type of SS unit.



The old steel bottles can only officialy be exchanged (for a new Al one) at Woolworths - Some have been lucky with Kmart, through probably through someone green serving them.

cheers Ross


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## geoffi (23/5/07)

Ross said:


> The old steel bottles can only officialy be exchanged (for a new Al one) at Woolworths - Some have been lucky with Kmart, through probably through someone green serving them.
> 
> cheers Ross



Thanks for the tip, Ross. I'll pay them a visit.


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## randyrob (23/5/07)

Vlad the Pale Aler said:


> Rob
> 3 grams of dextrose per litre would be enough to carb to English ale standard.



Awesome thanks Vlad. I've gone with that.

Hey Guys,

initial testing proved ok. so i've filled her up with some English Pale Ale and primed her! 





18L @ 3 grams of dex = 54 Grams of dextrose in a 20L Cube.

was thinking of wrapping a heater belt around her because it's pretty cold here at the moment just to speed up the process, dumb idea or not?

hoping on drinking this pretty young, end of the month most proberly

Rob.


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## geoffi (24/5/07)

randyrob said:


> was thinking of wrapping a heater belt around her because it's pretty cold here at the moment just to speed up the process, dumb idea or not?
> 
> Rob.



Should be OK, I'd think. Weird flavours from high ferment temps develop early AFAIK. For a spot of carbing I'd say go for it.


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## Wortgames (24/5/07)

randyrob said:


> was thinking of wrapping a heater belt around her because it's pretty cold here at the moment just to speed up the process, dumb idea or not?


I'm sure it would work, but it seems a little pointless - at warmer temps, the beer will absorb less CO2 at your given pressure.

Personally I think it would be best to store it at your serving temp and let the yeast adapt. It might even be an idea to think about seeding it with a lager yeast if you are storing it really cool?


I've got a toucan brew here ready to go, hopefully I'll get a CO2 charger (or an inflater fitting) next week and finally be able to give it a try myself...


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## geoffi (24/5/07)

WortGames said:


> I'm sure it would work, but it seems a little pointless - at warmer temps, the beer will absorb less CO2 at your given pressure.
> 
> Personally I think it would be best to store it at your serving temp and let the yeast adapt. It might even be an idea to think about seeding it with a lager yeast if you are storing it really cool?



I don't see how this would be an issue. After all, don't we condition bottles at ambient temps, then cool them before serving? Isn't natural conditioning of a cube just the same thing on a grand scale?


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## Wortgames (24/5/07)

Geoffi said:


> I don't see how this would be an issue. After all, don't we condition bottles at ambient temps, then cool them before serving? Isn't natural conditioning of a cube just the same thing on a grand scale?


Not really - a bottle is sealed and able to trap the pressure created during carbonation. When you chill it, that excess pressure is absorbed back into the beer.

With these cube-casks, they will vent at a very low pressure - a lot of the CO2 won't be absorbed at the warmer temp, and will escape through the vent. When you chill the cube, the small amount of CO2 in the headspace will become absorbed and the pressure will drop, and you'd need to add more CO2 to recreate the pressure / carbonation.

It may work, I don't know - but that is my understanding of the science and I think there would be a big trade-off between CO2 produced and CO2 lost at warmer temps. Whether the trade-off results in a net gain or a net loss would need to be decided by experimentation of course :beer:


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## warrenlw63 (24/5/07)

I'm fairly certan that English breweries never allow newly primed casks to go above cellars temps. Bringing the temp up for carbonation is most likely not needed. :unsure: 

Warren -


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## geoffi (24/5/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> I'm fairly certan that English breweries never allow newly primed casks to go above cellars temps. Bringing the temp up for carbonation is most likely not needed. :unsure:
> 
> Warren -



AFAIK 'cellar temps' means about 12c. Surely most ale yeasts will pretty much go to sleep at those temps, or work very slowly. I don't think adding lager yeast to casks would be a traditional part of real-ale production.


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## Tim (24/5/07)

Celler temp is usually 8-12 degrees. Most cask ales are served at about 10 degrees (well at a properly cask marque pub that is !).

If you havn't tried real ale before, ie havn't been to the UK, you may think that your beer is in fact flat.


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## geoffi (25/5/07)

Tim said:


> Celler temp is usually 8-12 degrees. Most cask ales are served at about 10 degrees (well at a properly cask marque pub that is !).
> 
> If you havn't tried real ale before, ie havn't been to the UK, you may think that your beer is in fact flat.



But correctly handled real ale, even if it doesn't have a strong head, is nonetheless carbonated. You can see it if you swish it a bit, and feel it in your mouth. I still don't see how a week or two at cellar temps (as low as 8c, as you point out) would produce anything like that.


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## Wortgames (25/5/07)

Geoffi said:


> But correctly handled real ale, even if it doesn't have a strong head, is nonetheless carbonated. You can see it if you swish it a bit, and feel it in your mouth. I still don't see how a week or two at cellar temps (as low as 8c, as you point out) would produce anything like that.


I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing a wooden barrel with the right spile might handle a bit more than 4psi.

What about carbonating at 13-14C then serving at 10? I'm sure you could rustle up a bit of gas that way. I just think that trying to carbonate with a heater at something like 18C then putting it into fridge at 6C for serving might not work so well.

I also never suggested that this is a method for making totally authentic real ale - my intention was a cheap, kind of 'hybrid' draft system that would simply eliminate bottling for day-to-day beer consumption. If it takes a teaspoon of saflager to get some carbonation into it at your desired serving temp, then so be it (just look over your shoulder for CAMRA).


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## randyrob (25/5/07)

Hey Dudes,

well i threw the heater belt idea out the window when i woke up in the morning and noticed the cube was quite swolen up so it didn't look like it even needed any help. as you've suggested worty this cube will
be getting served quite warm, as most of my existing fridges are filled with kegs i was just going to wack some ice around it the morning before to cool it slightly?

Rob.


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## Wortgames (25/5/07)

Depending on your average temps over there you might even get away with leaving somewhere that gets a bit cool overnight, and doesn't get any heat on it during the day. The average temp should stay fairly constant.

But I don't think chilling it by a couple of degress for serving would present many problems.


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## randyrob (25/5/07)

Check it, test sample fresh form the cube  




mmmm.......yummy :chug: 

Rob.


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## Stuster (25/5/07)

That looks goooooooooood, RR.

I just started a mild which will be my guinea pig beer to test this out so I'm hoping to report back to this thread in two or three weeks time. How does the cube look? How long did it take to carb up?


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## randyrob (25/5/07)

Stuster said:


> That looks goooooooooood, RR.
> 
> I just started a mild which will be my guinea pig beer to test this out so I'm hoping to report back to this thread in two or three weeks time. How does the cube look? How long did it take to carb up?




yeah i'm suprised it actually tastes alright quite young, not used to that! 
i usually brew APA's but since this is/was going to get drunk fresh i kept the bitterness quite low (25 ibu's)

i left it in primary for 9 days then into the cask cube for two days, even after two days the cube has swolen up quite a bit. we'll see how it goes over the next couple of days. it's only got 55 grams of dextrose so i'm guessing it would have eaten that up already?

Rob.


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## InCider (25/5/07)

Great stuff Rob - no luck needed!  

I'm going to get a wort kit and make me a man-keg.  

InCider.



randyrob said:


> Check it, test sample fresh form the cube
> 
> View attachment 12774
> 
> ...


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## geoffi (1/6/07)

OK.

Two weeks ago I racked 10L or so of primed best bitter to a cube and left it to do its thing.

The cube has puffed up considerably. In fact the bottom has distorted so it doesn't sit square. Doesn't tip over, but it leans. (A bit like I do when I'm full of beer...)

Yesterday I put the cube in the fridge and cooled it down to 8c. 

I've just poured a pint. The carbonation is quite light. Not much of a head. 

But it tastes great.

I've been away for a week and I understand the nights have been cold, so maybe it needs a little more time to gas up. Or maybe it needs just a little more priming sugar. 

But even as it is it's a perfectly respectable real ale.

Y'know what? I think I'll have another...


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## randyrob (2/6/07)

Hey Fellas,

here's a really goofy action shot of me serving a real 'cube' ale




carbonation hasn't increased since my first test pour in an earlier post,

i'm finding the carbonation fine as long as you drink it fairly quick.
if you nurse it, it tends to get/look/feel really flat.

Rob.


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## Sammus (2/6/07)

Ross said:


> The old steel bottles can only officialy be exchanged (for a new Al one) at Woolworths - Some have been lucky with Kmart, through probably through someone green serving them.
> 
> cheers Ross



I'm not sure about that, not in NSW anyway. I originally heard woollys were the people to go to. After about 20 visits to every woollys and coles in my area and none of them even knowing what a sodastream bottle was, I was fairly disheartened. Then I tried big W and was in luck. Since then every K-Mart or Big W that I've been stocks sodastream cylinders.

edit: took out a double neg that made it a bit confusing


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## Phil_the_ale_man (4/7/07)

Hi Guys,

I'm really interested in trying this deal out. As it's been a month now, have there been anymore overall good/bad impressions of the system?

Cheers,

Phil.


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## geoffi (4/7/07)

Phil_the_ale_man said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm really interested in trying this deal out. As it's been a month now, have there been anymore overall good/bad impressions of the system?
> 
> ...




I found this worked pretty well for a 'real ale' style. But overall I've gone over to the diy party keg made from a garden sprayer as a better option. They are designed to hold pressure without distorting, have a built-in relief valve, and are a piece of piss to fit with a line and tap. I'm enjoying a pint of bitter from my 8L sprayer keg as I type. Just a smidge undercarbonated, but I think I just need to tighten the relief valve a touch.

Check this thread for pix and details. 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=3199

Either way, one thing I've found is that metal valves are the way to go. I found the rubber ones stank too much and I think contaminated the beer. (Most tyre places sell them for about $4 each.)


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## Stuster (4/7/07)

I've been meaning to post in this thread. My beer (a mild) has come out ok, but the carbonation is probably too low even for me. I have been meaning to ask how to connect a sodastream to the valve. It probably seems like a simple question, but it's something I have no idea about. :blink:


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## Doogiechap (4/7/07)

Stuster said:


> I've been meaning to post in this thread. My beer (a mild) has come out ok, but the carbonation is probably too low even for me. I have been meaning to ask how to connect a sodastream to the valve. It probably seems like a simple question, but it's something I have no idea about. :blink:



Hey Stuster,
I haven't actually tested mine yet but... I purchased a tyre inflation knuckle (to fit valve) with a 1/4" BSP thread then fitted a 1/4" barb to my gas line. Mine was $5 from a local hose and coupler supplier. If you are struggling to track one down I would be happy to pop one in the post  
Cheers
Doug


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## Phil_the_ale_man (5/7/07)

Geoffi said:


> I found this worked pretty well for a 'real ale' style. But overall I've gone over to the diy party keg made from a garden sprayer as a better option. They are designed to hold pressure without distorting, have a built-in relief valve, and are a piece of piss to fit with a line and tap. I'm enjoying a pint of bitter from my 8L sprayer keg as I type. Just a smidge undercarbonated, but I think I just need to tighten the relief valve a touch.
> 
> Check this thread for pix and details.
> 
> ...



Hi Geoff,

I've looked into this one as well (5 or 8L is a pretty good size to fit in my fringe). Do you use the bicycle pump CO2 thing for this, or have you rigged up the soda stream system? I had considered the soda stream but then chickened out because a lot of people use regulators etc, which starts to add up ($$), and I really wanted a tight arse solution. 

Cheers,

Phil.


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## geoffi (5/7/07)

Phil_the_ale_man said:


> Hi Geoff,
> 
> I've looked into this one as well (5 or 8L is a pretty good size to fit in my fringe). Do you use the bicycle pump CO2 thing for this, or have you rigged up the soda stream system? I had considered the soda stream but then chickened out because a lot of people use regulators etc, which starts to add up ($$), and I really wanted a tight arse solution.
> 
> ...




Check the link on my previous post. A few pages back into that thread you'll find pics and info on how I put these together. No regs. I just add CO2 straight from the Soda Stream unit when the pour gets weak.


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## Phil_the_ale_man (5/7/07)

Geoffi said:


> Check the link on my previous post. A few pages back into that thread you'll find pics and info on how I put these together. No regs. I just add CO2 straight from the Soda Stream unit when the pour gets weak.



OK gotya,

That's another option I might need to explore. Have to go find a soda stream from somewhere ...

Phil.


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## geoffi (5/7/07)

Phil_the_ale_man said:


> OK gotya,
> 
> That's another option I might need to explore. Have to go find a soda stream from somewhere ...
> 
> Phil.



Ebay worked for me.


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## anc001 (12/12/07)

I read this topic as I've been exploring options to do with what vessels could be used with a beer engine as an alternative to kegging and thought I would weigh in with the the idea of allowing 'cubes' to release excess pressure using oz tops. They are designed to vent pressure above a certain level using some sort of CO2 permeable material.
They come in 3 different pressure grades, 'low' which releases pressure above "spritz" level, 'medium' which releases pressure above beer carbonation, and 'high' which allows pressure to produce the carbonation level in champagne or softdrinks. The medium and high caps can only be used on bottles designed to hold carbonated beverages like cola & lemonade, whereas the low ones are suitable for any bottles and designed to fit juice bottles.

I've used these alot in my brewing, mostly for yeast cultures, starters and so forth.




click the image for a larger version

I was hoping the male thread from a tap would be compatible with the thread of the soft drink bottle oztops, but alas it is not, and would require some modding.

If this could be adapted to this size lid (or if the company made them!) I imagine this would enable people to brew in cubes of various sizes, use them for real ale dispensing with a hand pump (with adition of a c02 injection valve thingo like a party keg), and it may also remove the anoying warping of the cubes which happens sometimes when beer is in secondary in a cube (additional fermentation, rise in temp etc) and they may even be suitable for serving beer straight from a cube's tap and not need a hand pump/ beer engine.

At some point I'll scrounge for bits and pieces that could be used to affix an oztop to a cube and see how it goes.

Just thought I'd throw this idea out there.
FYI for those people in Adelaide Grumpy's has these oztops 'kits' they are $25 and have 2 HIGH carbonation caps, 2 MED, 4 LOW of 2 differnet juice bottle types and 2 containers of dried yeast for making ciders and such (the actual use of these wonderful brew aids).

pS yada yada no affiliation just an appreciator of this product.


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## gerald (6/8/08)

lets pull this one up.

anyone have any more to contribute. this seems like a pretty good idea and might be a goer for when i brew a batch for my mates and myself at parties. 

has anyone tried bracing a cube with say 2 lengths of metal (20-25mm wide, maybe 2-3mm thick) and then folding them around so you can slide them over the cube (if you can weld, weld the ends up or use 2 holes in either end and some kind of pin) and when it starts to bloat up it holds the rings in place. they provide greater pressure and the cubes done deform too much. might mean you can get that extra bit of carbonation in allowing non real ales to be served?


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## Bribie G (7/8/08)

http://beer-and-winecraft.co.uk/barrels.htm

At about $AUD 40 to 70 I wonder what it would cost to freight a couple over here? I owned two of them when I lived in the UK and for bitters and milds they were superb. Wouldn't really suit Australian lagers etc because, from memory, when you put your pint glass under the spigot and turn the tap it sort of sprays out and you get a nice creamy head, sort of like a Tetley's Ale or a Nitrokeg.
The advantage of a pressure barrel used with Pom ales is that you can rack from fermenter, add finings, prime and start drinking in about a week - similar to the real ales in the pubs, and if you have two or three of them you can keep a nice production line trundling along. 

Not a good system if you need to mature for a month or so.


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## geoffi (8/8/08)

Love the look of those pressure barrels. So many goodies available in the brewing world that never seem to reach our shores. At least I've never seen them here. Anybody know any different?


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## notung (31/3/09)

WortGames said:


> OK, I think we may be onto something guys.
> 
> First, get yourself a standard car tyre valve - $2.99 for two from Autobarn. Then drill a 14mm hole in your cube lid. The packet says 11.5mm hole but they are dreaming.
> 
> ...



There was a thread in January about home-made beer engines using RV pumps, and some of the posters were speculating about using them to dispense from a cube. As somebody who is *very* keen to try out a cube modification as per WortGames' original guide, I wonder whether these ideas can be brought together...

I suppose that even the low pressure within a cube might interfere with the pump action and cause drips though? Somebody else commented that the RV pumps typically dispense about 20-30ml of liquid per 'pump'. I wonder if that's too laborious for me... <_<


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## Bribie G (31/3/09)

I looked into this myself as I mostly brew UK bitters. There is also a 'lotion pump' thingo that you can screw into the top of a cube and this is for applications like hand cleaners in workshops etc, you pump and a goop comes out into your hand. these are also about 30ml and it would take ten pumps, at least, to fill a middy. 

World of pain


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## notung (31/3/09)

And another thing... I am not the sort of drinker who is likely to consume 15L of beer in a week. I don't have enough fridge space to keep it cold either. Providing I kept the cube topped up with CO2 from a tyre inflator, would it be fine to leave a cube out at ambient temps over winter. I'm thinking: filled with a lovely porter that I can sip upon a bit every evening. (If the cube stayed out in the shed it is very unlikely to rise above 15C until spring hits.)

If that sounds fine, I just need recommendations for a nice entry-level porter recipe. I am immensely fond of Holgate's Temptress Chocolate Porter, but this brew will be my first so don't want to get too ambitious!

Cheers.


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## notung (31/3/09)

BribieG said:


> World of pain



That probably captures the experience fairly well...


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