# I don't like booze, but I like beer... stout more to the point.



## BestBeer (27/12/17)

OK I understand the chemistry of fermenting beer and storage etc., to make a fine brew.

I love the taste of stout - I could just guzzle it by the gallon - but I don't particularly like alcohol.... it just affects me too much....

I also like riding motorbikes and warm weather... and alcohol impairs me, makes me drowsy, and sleepy and a warm day and nice weather, a decent feed and especially after a few beers - and heading home west into that late afternoon summer sun, makes me want to fall asleep at the wheel....

If I were to get a Coopers Stout Brewing Kit, what would be the BEST way or ways, to make that into a pretend beer, that had not been fermented....

Think processing MOST of the ingredients, and ending up with good strong beer flavoured cordial, or beer based soft drink, or beer tea....

Maybe it might be not as good or maybe it might be better, or maybe it just might be different "beer". It does not actually have to be perfection it's self, but a decent stout flavoured drink would be real nice.

Something that is made up, chilled and served up...

And possibly carbonated.....

What are some opinions on how best to do this?


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## Danscraftbeer (27/12/17)

There are threads on this site about non alc brewing but I cant find it in the search atm.
I'd consider just diluting the can of stout to make it to 18lt (keg volume) and mix, chill and force carbonate that. I'd imagine it as thin but sweet bittered malt drink. I wouldn't add any more sugars that you do if fermenting but go by taste on that maybe.
Some will brew it out as a normal brew and then heat the beer so the alcohol evaporates but you get left with a somewhat real beer flavor. Then chill, force carbonate that.


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## manticle (27/12/17)

BestBeer said:


> OK I understand the chemistry of fermenting beer and storage etc., to make a fine brew.
> 
> I love the taste of stout - I could just guzzle it by the gallon - but I don't particularly like alcohol.... it just affects me too much....
> 
> ...


 You could ferment as usual, then heat to reduce/remove alcohol.

Or ferment the tin with no extra sugar or malt to get a low alc stout. Could add boiled liquor from steeped roast malts for extra flavour without boosting abv%.

If you don't ferment, it will taste stupidly sweet


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## Lecterfan (27/12/17)

BestBeer said:


> OK I understand the chemistry of fermenting beer and storage etc.
> 
> If I were to get a Coopers Stout Brewing Kit, what would be the BEST way or ways, to make that into a pretend beer, that had not been fermented....


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## captain crumpet (27/12/17)

Take a handful of roasted barley and chew on that while you sip a lemon lime and bitters.


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## BestBeer (27/12/17)

OK..... Mmmmmm - Love that creamy foamy tan head.... 

Here we go. Info on the boiling points of alcohol and the combined alcohol and water solution.


https://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/phaseeqia/nonideal.html

Boiling point / composition diagrams for non-ideal mixtures A large positive deviation from Raoult's Law: ethanol and water mixtures If you look back up the page, you will remember that a large positive deviation from Raoult's Law produces a vapour pressure curve with a maximum value at some composition other than pure A or B.If a mixture has a high vapour pressure it means that it will have a low boiling point. The molecules are escaping easily and you won't have to heat the mixture much to overcome the intermolecular attractions completely.The implication of this is that the boiling point / composition curve will have a minimum value lower than the boiling points of either A or B.In the case of mixtures of ethanol and water, this minimum occurs with 95.6% by mass of ethanol in the mixture. *The boiling point of this mixture is 78.2°C, compared with the boiling point of pure ethanol at 78.5°C*, and water at 100°C.You might think that this 0.3°C doesn't matter much, but it has huge implications for the separation of ethanol / water mixtures.The next diagram shows the boiling point / composition curve for ethanol / water mixtures. I've also included on the same diagram a vapour composition curve in exactly the same way as we looked at on the previous pages about phase diagrams for ideal mixtures.


*Then there is COLD distillation. *

Melting point: ethanol: −117.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=561746

#1 05-02-2010, 06:08 PMTaenia spp. Guest Join Date: Oct 2008Location: Bay Area, CaliforniaPosts: 275Melting Point of an Ethanol/Water MixtureI've been storing spirits (40% ABV) in the freezer and they've always remained liquid at that temperature. Recently, in my naive understanding, I placed a bottle of vermouth (18% ABV) in there and was surprised to find the next day all I had was a bottle of hard slush. This got me thinking: at what proportion of alcohol will that solution not freeze at typical freezer temperatures?In my dim memory of chemistry, I remember that a mixture of two miscible compounds will have a melting point (freezing point) lower than the melting point of each compound individually, with a sharp depression at the eutectic point. Is there anywhere to find an ethanol-water melting point curve?I suppose for the purposes of this question, we might first consider a solution of pure ethanol and water without impurities, but we could also consider the effects of the various other compounds typically found in alcoholic beverages.

The links from that comment.


https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethanol-water-d_989.html

*Ethanol based Water Solutions Freezing Point*
*Freezing Point
Ethanol Concentration
(% by volume)* *0* *10* *20* *30* *40 * *50* *60* *70* *80* *90* *100*
_ (oC)_ 0 -4 -9 -15 -23 -32 -37 -48 -59 -73 -115

*Example - Ethanol Concentration at Freezing Point at -20oC*
The ethanol concentration with freezing point at _-20oC_ can be calculated by interpolating the concentration between freezing point _-15oC_ and _-23oC_ in the table above.

_(((40%) - (30%)) / ((-23oC) - (-15oC))) ((-15oC) - (-20oC)) + (30%) = 37.3 %_

This calculation is simplified by assuming that the concentration vs. freezing point follows a straight line. This not necessary correct.

If a _90%_ ethanol-water solution shall be mixed with clean water to achieve a freezing point of _-20oC_ (ethanol concentration _37.3% (0.373)_) - the amount of added water can be calculated with volume balance - the amount of ethanol before mix is the same as after the mix:

_cs Vs = cm (Vs + Vw) (1)_

_where_

_cs = concentration in ethanol - water solution _

_Vs = volume of the ethanol - water solution (liter, gallon)_

_cs = concentration in mix_

_Vm = volume of mix (liter, gallon)_

_Vw = volume of the added clean water (liter, gallon)_

Rearranging the equation to express the volume of water added to the mixture

_Vw = (cs - cm) Vs / cm (1b)_

Substituting with values

_Vw = (0.9 - 0.373) Vs / 0.373_

_ = 1.41 Vs_

- for every liter _90%_ ethanol-water solution _1.41 liter_ of clean water must be mixed in to achieve an ethanol concentration of _37.3%_ and freezing point _-20oC_.




https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phase_diagram_ethanol_water_s_l_en.svg

The freezing point of water alcohol solutions based upon alcohol content and temperature.. (stout however, is not a simple water alcohol blend - freezing point - much lower)








I think the way to go is to fractionally distill the beer at say -5*C by dripping it over a big alumium tray, at a slight tilt, at perhaps -20*C.... inside a chest freezer

I suppose that one could actually measure the freezing point of the combined water and alcohol, and then set the freezer to run at just above that. This way you should end up with a block of frozen beer and all the run off is the distillate.

Or one could chill a bottle of Coopers stout to 0*C, then decap it, and then put it back into the chest freezer on a pie dish, and by slowly chilling it further, the water and water based compounds should settle to the bottom of the bottle and the alcohol and the combined water and alcohol, all being lighter fractions, ought to rise to the top of the bottle, and as the water based beer begins to freeze, it should expand and push the alcoholic liquids out.

Coopers *Best Extra Stout* has 6.3% alcohol., so out of a 750ml bottle, it ought to exude around about 48ml, but 70ml will do - including a little extra for certainty..

I think an extremely slow chilling, and a measured exudance, as the stopping point, and a removal from the deep freeze and a recap....


Or I could simply prepare the beer kit more or less as per instructions, minus the yeast and the sugar, and the fermentation, and then just drink that - make it up like beer cordial and throw some CO2 into it... 

I'd just like a few great big pint glasses of it now and then... while keeping a clear head, a sober license, and not nodding off and going into a tree or the oncoming traffic.....

That lovely warm afternoon sun on the chest and belly...... A very early start, a decent lunch, a long trip, and coming home - that sun - it's like a giant sleeping pill.....


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## Danscraftbeer (27/12/17)

Um. Can you summarise the verdict?


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## BestBeer (27/12/17)

If I didn't have so much to do all ready, I'd gladly set up a laboratory for both hot and cold distillation, with very tight tolerances on the temperature control and measurements - and then test everything....

But I think a $14 brewing kit, a big pot to cook it up in, minus the sugar, and the yeast, and then just run the liquid through blending stick - and then a fine mesh sieve, and then let it cool and refrigerate - it will keep for a few days, and or it can be put into 80% full 1.5 litre plastic vege juice bottles, with the air squeezed out, can be deep frozen for later use.

At the very worst it can be a bit lame... and at the very best it might make a really nice drink, especially with a bit of lemonade.....

To be honest though, if you can drink the really thick strong stouts, you could probably drink fermented horse shit.... 

So the ideal bottled stout from the factory does not necessarily mean it's Nirvana and everything else is effluent.

It might be a REALLY good drink as is, or with some further doctoring, it might suit ones personal preferences.

It's really like Vegemite on toast. Some like it trowelled on, some like a faint skid mark and some think Vegemite tastes like shit - end of story.

But for $14 and a bit of experimenting, it's going to be worth trying.

It's a minimal investment and you learn things by doing.

Concise enough?


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## Danscraftbeer (27/12/17)

I'll drink a sample!


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## manticle (27/12/17)

BestBeer said:


> If I didn't have so much to do all ready, I'd gladly set up a laboratory for both hot and cold distillation, with very tight tolerances on the temperature control and measurements - and then test everything....
> 
> But I think a $14 brewing kit, a big pot to cook it up in, minus the sugar, and the yeast, and then just run the liquid through blending stick - and then a fine mesh sieve, and then let it cool and refrigerate - it will keep for a few days, and or it can be put into 80% full 1.5 litre plastic vege juice bottles, with the air squeezed out, can be deep frozen for later use.
> 
> ...




So are you asking if it’s a good idea to drink stout kit wort or just announcing that’s what you intend?
Good luck.

You only need a stock pot to to heat for alc evaporation by the way. Hell, you could even experiment with a saucepan. No lab required (freeze distillation likewise pretty simple, presuming you have a fridge or freezer).


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## Danscraftbeer (27/12/17)

Freeze extraction is an option. Fully ferment. So you may need a mate to take the concentrated alcoholic version or bottle the alcoholic extraction for long time storage maybe? Call it Barley Wine. Then all that frozen watery (non alcoholic) leftover just keg it and force carbonate that?
Good luck Its all just bittered malt soda drink without the alcohole.


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## SeeFar (28/12/17)

I’d do everything the same as prescribed for kit brewing, add very little sugar and half the yeast but also steep a bunch of roasted barley for deep flavors. Then full the fermenter up to approx 27 litres, or way over the prescribed amount of water.

The small amount of booze will balance the sweetness but not be enough to drunk you up. I did something vaguely similar recently (not by design) and the flavour is fine but no matter how much I drink I can’t get drunk.


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## Dave70 (28/12/17)

BestBeer said:


> OK I understand the chemistry of fermenting beer and storage etc., to make a fine brew.
> 
> *I love the taste of stout *- I could just guzzle it by the gallon - but I don't particularly like alcohol.... it just affects me too much....
> 
> I also like riding motorbikes and warm weather...* and alcohol impairs me, makes me drowsy, and sleepy* and a warm day and nice weather, a decent feed and especially after a few beers - and heading home west into that late afternoon summer sun, makes me want to fall asleep at the wheel....



Problem solved. 
Nitro infused cold brewed coffee. Looks delish.
(beard, checked shirt and Ray-Bans optional)


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## spog (28/12/17)

Anyone perfected a clone of the Big Shed Golden Stout Time?
Fargin noice.


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## Coodgee (28/12/17)

Best thread for a while. You still get the occasional new question on this forum.


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## Mardoo (28/12/17)

Sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but have you considered vacuum evaporation? Pure, uninformed (but researched) speculation follows, so listen to more studied voices than mine on this. According to the online calculator I used ( http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/wrzenie.html ) - which by its own admission is an estimate - f you had a pump that could get you down to 5 kPa , you could evaporate the alcohol at room temperature, draw it out, and sell it to your dero mates. This appears do-able with a $200 eBay pump. One key would be evaporation chamber design. However if you were de-alcoholising 19L at a time, with the right kegs ( @malt junkie ) you could use a 55L keg as your evaporation chamber. Hmmm, this is pretty interesting …


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## Danscraftbeer (28/12/17)

Mardoo said:


> Sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but have you considered vacuum evaporation? Pure, uninformed (but researched) speculation follows, so listen to more studied voices than mine on this. According to the online calculator I used ( http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/wrzenie.html ) - which by its own admission is an estimate - f you had a pump that could get you down to 5 kPa , you could evaporate the alcohol at room temperature, draw it out, and sell it to your dero mates. This appears do-able with a $200 eBay pump. One key would be evaporation chamber design. However if you were de-alcoholising 19L at a time, with the right kegs ( @malt junkie ) you could use a 55L keg as your evaporation chamber. Hmmm, this is pretty interesting …


You know, I heat sterilize my kegmenter with sanitizer solution. I use a spunding valve so it boils under ~ 15psi pressure that equals around 125c in temperature etc. Like a 50lt pressure cooker. I then take off heat, take off the spunding valve and let cool. When its cool there is quite a significant vacuum created in the kegmenter. Just pondering, saying its not hard to create a vaccumed keg vessel etc. 
So the question: Hook that up to any keg of beer in room temps and it can suck out all the alcohole? 
That would be a cool trick. ?


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## Mardoo (28/12/17)

Yeah, I started with the question of whether you could turn any pressure cooker into a vacuum vessel. Perhaps the old Mytton Rodd 18 UK gallon kegs would be the go, As they’re about 3.5mm thick, IIRC. Clearly more research on pressure vessels is warranted.


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## Danscraftbeer (28/12/17)

Yes for sure. Safety always.


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