# Herms/rims Systems $$$$



## gibbocore (28/7/08)

Is it at all possible for people to put a price on what they have spent all up on their herms or rims systems? I take it that a good deal of the parts are picked up/freebies. But i'm sure some welding know how and hardware equipment would have been purchased at some point.

I'd like to start upgrading my equipment and output. Would just like to know what to expect in the $$$ department.


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## Doogiechap (28/7/08)

gibbocore said:


> Is it at all possible for people to put a price on what they have spent all up on their herms or rims systems? I take it that a good deal of the parts are picked up/freebies. But i'm sure some welding know how and hardware equipment would have been purchased at some point.
> 
> I'd like to start upgrading my equipment and output. Would just like to know what to expect in the $$ department.



Gibbocore, you are dead right when it comes to picked up/ freebie parts making a huge difference to cost. The other variable is what sort of build quality versatility you are chasing. Thirsty Boy built a HERMS setup for two parts of bugger all and on all accounts works a treat, for me my setup's largest cost contributor was the additional hose fittings 4 x $15 female and 4 x $10 male, to insert the heat exchanger neatly into the pumping circuit and the Mashmaster Temp Controller $90. Copper coil roughly $30, ali pot, ex dishwasher heating element and mate who brazed the fittings onto the coil free (priceless). All of the fittings through my pot are weldless.

My advice is to start creating the shopping list for what you would like to have ideally, then start looking at ways you can be creative in adapting alternative products for the job (if you have the time). For me, that is as much fun as brewing  . 
When creating the shopping list try to think into the future a bit too as you will want to improve your rig so whatever gear you buy/ aquire, try to 'futureproof' your equipment and get stuff that won't wear/ corrode/ leak/ tarnish your product too quickly 

Have fun !
Cheers
Doug


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## Thirsty Boy (28/7/08)

Well, initially it was for 3 parts of bugger all, and on a small scale it worked pretty well - but as it has evolved over time into a bigger and more versatile unit, I've probably spent $900 dollars on different bits and pieces over the years, but the core of what I currently have would be a lot cheaper to assemble. Its the trial and error that cost me, not so much the result.

To build my HERMS from scratch (assuming you have the basic 3 vessel set-up already) would cost

March pump - $250 from G&G
PID controller and jiffy box/parts to make it go - $80.00 ish off e-bay and DSE
A few meters of 1/2inch copper tube for your heat-ex coil and return manifold - You can get 6m of it for $48 from Bunnings at the moment and spare copper tube isn't going to hurt
10L handy pail for Heat-Ex vessel - $5 new from Bunnings or free scrounged from a deli or something
Element from a K'mart electric kettle - $10
A few meters of silicon hose - $18 ??? actually I use cheap bunnings vinyl hose cause I bought a whole coil of the stuff, It will be being replaced with silicon when it runs out because it is shit.
A couple of compression fittings for the end of your coil - $10ish
Some good Quick disconnects - <$50 for more than enough Aluminium camlocks from Dural Irrigation I am currently using cheap plastic garden hose fittings and they suck rectum. Good brass garden fittings would be fine, but are actually more expensive than the camlocks. So the camlocks are being ordered in the next couple of days.
A bigish bag of Rice Hulls - I use a good couple of hands full in every mash to make sure I don't get sticking. Nothing worse that starting your mash at acid rest temperatures planning on a four step mash - then it sticks in the first few minutes of re-circulating and your mash stays at 36C while you F around trying to make it go, and then sticks again at every other step on the way - three hour mashes are no damn fun at all.
An RCD - $25 from bunning. So you dont kill yourself

I dont know if you could do it a lot cheaper than that, unless you try to save on the expensive bits and re-cycle a washing machine pump or something instead of using the march. I spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to make things as cheaply as I could, and use things that would "do" rather than the things that would be the "best". All OK if you don't want to enjoy your brewing very much. But spending the first 45minutes of my brew cursing and swearing because a cheap QD insists on leaking, or the cheap pump I first bought is leaking like a sieve and wont prime, or the cheap hose keeps kinking when its hot....... it's not a lot of fun at all. It gets more expensive when you try to be cheap and then have to buy everything twice because you'd rather be actually brewing than swearing at your brew system.

This system works pretty well for me, (after the swearing is over) but I am a real stickler for mash temp control and the system has a bit of delay and inertia to it, so I am about to undertake a modification to RIMS rather than HERMS because I think that I will get faster and more accurate control of temperature and temperature changes. This will cost me a slab, because a friend is building the RIMS unit for me out of some stainless pipe, and the rest of the gear is to be scavenged from the HERMS. It will all be able to be put back if the RIMS is no better that what I currently have.

Hope that gives you a bit of a picture of what you are heading for. I sincerely hope that someone else is abl to tell you its a lot cheaper and easier than I have made it - then when I get the masochistic urge to re-build my system again, I'll do it their way instead of mine.

Cheers

TB


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## gibbocore (28/7/08)

Thanks a brazillion for the replys!

I'm pretty excited about putting this together. The next choice is choosing herms or rims. Which i take it is another can of worms all together, but will probably come down to part availability. 

I guess some of my main requirements are easy of cleaning and i like to have things looking nice  

Oh and of course, like all brewers, building things and keeping them cheap!


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## fraser_john (28/7/08)

I would say first design your system on paper. Do a LOT of research on the internet and this site, look at as many other systems as you can to get an idea on what components you might need. Develop a shopping list of essential items.

Find all the local scrap metal merchants and do a walk around their yard (if they let you), especially in the stainless steel scrap pile.

Do it piece meal if you cannot afford lump sum, start with the easiest, cheapest bits first, you might trip over some of the bigger bits on the way to accumulating these small components. 

Look at your friends and determine what help they may be, are they plumbers, electricians etc? Same with friends of friends, you can always promise a case of good beer in return for work done, even if its the simplest of work (e.g. a 15amp outlet or a bit of brazing).

There was a post about Atlas in Shepparton having about the best prices on stainless ball valves around, keep that in mind, they may have other stainless bits cheap as well!

It can cost bugger all to way too much!

I stupidly took my kettle somewhere and it cost $350 to cut it in half and weld an extra 8 inches into it, only to find out a few weeks later a friends brother in law works in a fabrication department of the local slaughter yard, everything they work with is stainless!!! He has now got things done for me for nicks, including the work on my mash stirrer.

Good luck!


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## gibbocore (28/7/08)

This is all awesome stuff fellas and is most appreciated.

Is the descision for herms or Rims purley based on availability of parts?


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## fraser_john (28/7/08)

gibbocore said:


> This is all awesome stuff fellas and is most appreciated.
> 
> Is the descision for herms or Rims purley based on availability of parts?



I would say that it is personal choice! People profess the benefits/disadvantages of both!


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## schooey (28/7/08)

Patience is a virtue and Ebay is your friend... 

Research the info, decide what's best for you and then slowly acquire your stuff. Eventually bargains will pop up or you'll see or think of a better or cheaper way to do it. I been building mine for almost 12 months now...  At this stage, Franko will be brewing beer on the red rocket brfore I get mine all together.


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## Screwtop (28/7/08)

10L SS cooking pot from the kitchen $0
Element and cord from a $10 kettle that had been originally installed in my HLT 2 years prior $0
Left over car windshield insulation and camp mat $0
Duct Tape from the shed $0
3M x 1/2 in copper tube from the scrap yard $5.00
1/2" Copper compression fittings from Bunnings $17.80
2 x Click fit hose tail and nut from Bunnings, think they were $6.40
Project box from Dick Smith previously used in HLT $0
Mashmaster around $90
1/2" copper fittings for MLT return plumbing max $30

Obviously many of these items cost something originally and I had the pump already. To include the new cost of items and include the pump, all up around the $450.00 to do it from scratch. 

But like so many brewery projects put together over time, not a big one off cost. Well worth it to my mind, improvements like this in the brewery save me lifting large volumes of hot water and wort and make brewday much easier. HERMS provides improved management of mash processes, and the Mashmaster enables easy management of brewery temperatures. I use the pump to recirc through a plate chiller and swap over to a Mashmaster probe mounted in the Kettle return manifold, so while chilling/whirlpooling the temp is monitored and once the temp reaches pitching temp the flow is diverted to the fermenter, this saves overall brewday time requirements as less total time is required for attending to the brew. Much of my brewday time is spent on AHB simply waiting for steps to complete. Total time including brew cleaning and pitching yeast is reduced. After wort is pumped to the fermenter yeast is pitched and the fermenter goes into the fermentation fridge and cleaning begins. The hot water from the HERMS heat exchanger is transferred to the HLT where a little caustic is added, this is then pumped around for cleaning. When I walk out of the brewery all is finished, prior I had to return time after time to check on cooling and to pitch the yeast etc. When it comes to time management in my book HERMS/RIMS is great and worth the $ investment for ease of brewery management and time savings.


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## pbrosnan (28/7/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Some good Quick disconnects - <$50 for more than enough Aluminium camlocks from Dural Irrigation



Hi there TB,

What size did camlocks did you get? 15mm?


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## Thirsty Boy (28/7/08)

In the process of ordering at the moment - I'm going with the 15mm ones. They will screw straight onto the March pump and into ball valves etc etc. I got an e-mail quote from http://www.irrigationwarehouse.com.au/category170_1.htm as well, they can supply 15mm even though they aren't listed on the site. Slightly cheaper prices but more expensive shipping for me. Probably a fair bit cheaper if you are a tradey.. but I'm not


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## pbrosnan (28/7/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> In the process of ordering at the moment - I'm going with the 15mm ones. They will screw straight onto the March pump and into ball valves etc etc. I got an e-mail quote from http://www.irrigationwarehouse.com.au/category170_1.htm as well, they can supply 15mm even though they aren't listed on the site. Slightly cheaper prices but more expensive shipping for me. Probably a fair bit cheaper if you are a tradey.. but I'm not



So you'd be getting the type "B" females and the type "F" males?


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## gibbocore (28/7/08)

Ok, a few more questions guy's before i start posting up drawings and designs.

What's the largest batch size you can do (easily) with a CUB keg/kettle?

How much of a difference does an intricate sparge arm make and how elaborate should i attempt to be? Are there any standard designs out there at the moment, what should i be aiming for considering i'm a batch sparger. Also, am i going to expect higher efficiancy with the fly sprge?

Whats the best place to have my mashmaster temp probe? In the fly sparge arm? In the Mash tun? Or have mutliple and switch them acording to what action i am doing. Ie, if i'm in my mash cycle i'd imagine the mashmaster would be most efficiant if its readings were coming from the mash tun itself?

Sorry for all the questions, i just want to get this right so that future tweakings are exactly that, in the future.


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## Thirsty Boy (28/7/08)

pbrosnan - I am getting some type A and type F fittings for the pump and ball valves etc, plus type C for the hoses. Having used a few of these fittings (admittedly in a much larger sizes) industrially, the females usually to go on the hoses, its easier to handle that way.

gibbocore - I just still batch sparge, so I cant help with fancy spinning sparge arm designs or stuff like that.

I have a 50L pot and with only a 60min boil and a bit of careful kettle watching, I can just about squeak 38L into a fermentor without mucking about with water additions during the boil.

My opinion is that the temp probe should go on the wort return, as close to where it re-enters the tun as possible. If you have the probe in the tun itself, then by the time the Mashtun is heated to the right temp, the HERMS vessel is way to hot and you will overshoot your temps. If the recirculating wort is at 67 going in the top, then eventually it will be 67 coming out the tap and so will everything in between (mostly) But that is because of the design of my HERMS. Its temp is controlled via the element being switched and heating up the 10L of water the coil sits in. If you have less volume in the exchanger, its less of an issue, if you have a system where the temp is controlled by routing the wort either through or around the heat exchanger rather than by switching the element ... then its completely different.

Its a pretty complex thing - lots of different ways to do it, all with their pros and cons.

TB


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## gibbocore (29/7/08)

Cheers mate, there is a lot of food for thought. I'll have a go at drawing up some design schematics. If i can remember all the ittle symbols etc, its been a while.


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## reVoxAHB (29/7/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> My opinion is that the temp probe should go on the wort return, as close to where it re-enters the tun as possible.



Hey TB, most of my reading on herms suggests the same, and i agree with the logic.. just wondering, if I were to use a MashMate controller (which comes with something like a 6" probe) where and how does the probe mount to the return? Would I build something like a reservoir or grant to house the probe (and returning liquid) just before it enters the tun?


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## Screwtop (29/7/08)

reVox said:


> Hey TB, most of my reading on herms suggests the same, and i agree with the logic.. just wondering, if I were to use a MashMate controller (which comes with something like a 6" probe) where and how does the probe mount to the return? Would I build something like a reservoir or grant to house the probe (and returning liquid) just before it enters the tun?



This is how I do it reVox





Screwy


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## gibbocore (29/7/08)

Hey Screwtop, thats some neat looking work there. Do you have any other pics of your entire brewery?


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## reVoxAHB (29/7/08)

ah beaut, screwtop.

a pics worth a 1000 words 

reVox


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## kirem (29/7/08)

I have a HERMS system and if you do a search you will find pictures of my heat-exchanger.

I agree with screwys setup, as close to the exit point from your heat exchanger the better. You need to pick the place that the recirculating thin-part gets the hottest.

No point in measuring it anywhere else if you are denaturing your enzymes in another, hotter part of the recirculation system.


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## Thirsty Boy (29/7/08)

much prettier than mine - I use a PID with a K type thermocouple sensor, I ripped it out of the little stainless probe thing it came with because the response time to change was too slow, now its just the tiny little sensor bead itself. That just gets pushed under an inch of vinyl hose thats around the copper of my wort return manifold, then a bit of foam matting is hoseclamped around the outside so it reads the copper temp not the ambient. That way it is measuring the wort temp about 6 inches from where it actually meets the mash.

It consistently reads 1 degree cooler than the returning wort temp (measured with my good thermo) so I just calibrate the PID up by a degree and it all matches nicely.

When I swap to RIMS, I will put the temp sensor into the RIMS chamber itself, that way if I am stupid enough to leave the element on when the pump isn't circulating, rather than the sensor saying "cold, switch element on" it will quickly register hot and turn it off, saving me the expense and danger of blowing the whole thing up.


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## gibbocore (30/7/08)

Righto fellas, i mustr say i am loving this wealth of information.

I have just a few more questions before my first drawing gets done.

Elements and HLT's.
I'm thinking of using my 40L Brew pot as my HLT and installing an element. The most sparge water it will hold should be around the 30L mark for a double batch. Will this take too long to heat? Or will a 3600w element take care of the job nicely?

I plan on having switchable probes so when the mash & mashout steps are complete, i can switch over to another probe in the HLT and have the mashmaster heat the water up to sparge temp and pump that water out into the MLT.

Also i'd like to open the can of worms on Elements in Kettles. I like the idea of it. Do i run scorching problems, over caramalizaion? How fast can i get 45L of 75 degree wort to the boil? Does anyone find it interferes with whirpooling etc?

Thanks in advance.


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## Screwtop (30/7/08)

gibbocore said:


> Hey Screwtop, thats some neat looking work there. Do you have any other pics of your entire brewery?






Hoses in place



These pics are over 12 months old and some mods have been made since then. Have about 100mm of flying lead now on the MM Probes and use a polarised connector to attach the lead from the Mashmaster. Easier for moving around and cleaning, the connectors are sealed at the cable entry points. I swap the cable from the MLT return probe to the Kettle return probe to monitor the temp of the returning wort during whirlpooling (via the plate chiller).

Screwy


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## justsomeguy (30/7/08)

Hey gibbocore,

I'm running a fully electric system and may be able to answer a few of your questions.



gibbocore said:


> Righto fellas, i mustr say i am loving this wealth of information.
> 
> I have just a few more questions before my first drawing gets done.
> 
> ...



I think you will need three separate vessels if you want to do the traditional brew thing, not BIAB.
When sparging you're going to need somewhere for the wort to go to. If your kettle has your sparge water in it then where does the wort go ?

I'm normally doing single batches and budget around 35 litres of water to be heated. I get the strike water up to temp in the kettle then dump it in the mash tun. While the mash is going I heat up the sparge water in the kettle then transfer it to the HLT and keep it warm there.

I run 1800 watt and 2400 watt elements in the kettle and a 1800 watt element in the HLT. A 1800 watt element will take a little over an hour to get 30 litres to the boil, if you keep it out of the wind and insulate it.



> I plan on having switchable probes so when the mash & mashout steps are complete, i can switch over to another probe in the HLT and have the mashmaster heat the water up to sparge temp and pump that water out into the MLT.



You will want the HLT water up to temperature when the mash is complete, not after as it could take a while to get the sparge water up to temp. If you are going to run a HREMS or RIMS system then use the mashmaster, or something like it, on the mash. Meanwhile get the HLT heating. At around 15 minutes before the end of the mash switch the mashmaster over to the HLT and use it there to keep the HLT at the required sparge temp. Or run two mashmasters 1 for the mash and the other for the HLT. Much easier.



> Also i'd like to open the can of worms on Elements in Kettles. I like the idea of it. Do i run scorching problems, over caramalizaion? How fast can i get 45L of 75 degree wort to the boil? Does anyone find it interferes with whirpooling etc?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I've not had any scorching problems with my system. The time to get 45 litres to the boil is dependent upon two main factors, the wattage of the elements and the use, or not, of insulation on the kettle.

Higher wattage elements = faster to the boil
Do you have the wiring to handle really big elements though, that is the important question.

Insulation on the kettle reduces heat loss. You can insulate an electric system without the fear of burning it if you had used an gas-fired system.

I've had no problems whirlpooling with electric elements in the kettle.


Crap what a long response  
gary


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## gibbocore (30/7/08)

Cheers for that.

I think i'll be going electric as it will keep the system a bit more automated (for me). So i'm pretty happy to hear the elements are working out, means i dont need to weld any burner manifolds etc. 

I should elaborate on the proceedure i'm planning on.

Heat strike water in sperate pot on stove (19l jobbie), pour into MT.
Fill my HLT with my sparge water, my HLT will also hvae the heat exchanger in it with prolly a 2600w element. When i work my system out and heat loss equations etc i should be able to heat strike water and heat sparge water to recirc temp. Add sparge water to MLT and add grist, then once the temp has settled, start the recirc at whatever preset using mashmaster with the probe switched to MLT return. 15 or so minutes towards the end of the mash, i can stop the recirc, switch the mashmaster probe over to the HLT and heat to sparging temp, once mash is finished, i should have gained around 15 degrees, and can recirc at said temp for mashout, or i can just do a drawnout step up mashout, depending on how long it takes in testing. Then i pump wort out of MLT into the kettle, then i pump sparge water from the HLT into MLT and batch sparge (until i get two pumps). Settle, a few recircs through the dry HLT to achieve clarity, then pump into kettle. Obviously i'll have to ensure the HLT element is switched off and the temp loss should be negelgable.

Thoughts?


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## Thirsty Boy (30/7/08)

If you are going to have your heat-ex coil in your HLT - you will be heating a very large amount of water, so your temperature changes will be quite slow and your system will have a bit of inertia to it. Over shooting will be easy, step mashing will take a long time between steps.

For that design, I would actually place your temperature sensor in your HLT _all the time_. You will need to do a little experimenting to establish the relationship between the temperature in the HLT and the temperature of your returning wort, but at a given flow rate, you should be able to get it nice and dialed in. This way, you wont be in danger of the HLT driving too high. You might also benefit from an agitator of some sort in the HLT to make sure the temperature doesn't stratify and what you measure at the probe is the uniform temp of the whole tank. A little pump or just a stirrer on a small 12V motor would do it easily. Remember to put the coil as low down in the tank as possible, so if you are using less sparge water you don't lose heat-ex efficiency because the coil is not completely submerged.

The way I would do it is - The drawn out step up. Just set the temp for your HLT to mashout temp + delta T between HLT and returning wort. The whole kit and kaboodle will raise itself up to mashout temps and the HLT will already be at or above sparge temp. If above it can be cooled down with a little cold water.

That way you don't have to have 2 temp probes, or 2 temp controllers, and there is a lot less pumping from place to place. Oh, and for time saving... you can fill your mashtun with your strike water, and your HLT/Heat-ex with your sparge water, all cold, all the night before. Prime your pump and get everything set-up, put it on a timer and go to bed. By the time you go into your brewery the next morning, the HLT has heated up, the pump has been re-circulating the strike water through the hot HLT, so its up to temp as well and all you have to do is pour in the grain and go have breakfast.

You can work out your sparge routine as you go, for worts under 1.060 I just dump all my sparge water into the MT at once and do a single draining after recirculating to clarity. You lose a few points of efficiency over a two or three drainings technique, but you save a bunch of time and effort. Around 75% efficiency for me, it drops on bigger beers and I revert to a double drain sparge for over 1.060.

Anyway, your sparge technique isn't set in stone and you can refine as you go. Much easier to change than HERMS design.

More to think about

Thirsty


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## QldKev (30/7/08)

kirem said:


> I have a HERMS system and if you do a search you will find pictures of my heat-exchanger.




I believe there is a cream to cure herms    

I think Henno mentioned a home remedy? :icon_drool2: 

QldKev


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## InCider (30/7/08)

QldKev said:


> I believe there is a cream to cure herms
> I think Henno mentioned a home remedy? :icon_drool2:
> 
> QldKev



Rims gave Henno Herms :lol:


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## Batz (30/7/08)

InCider said:


> Rims gave Henno Herms :lol:




It had to be said :lol: 

Batz


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## gibbocore (1/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> If you are going to have your heat-ex coil in your HLT - you will be heating a very large amount of water, so your temperature changes will be quite slow and your system will have a bit of inertia to it. Over shooting will be easy, step mashing will take a long time between steps.
> 
> For that design, I would actually place your temperature sensor in your HLT _all the time_. You will need to do a little experimenting to establish the relationship between the temperature in the HLT and the temperature of your returning wort, but at a given flow rate, you should be able to get it nice and dialed in. This way, you wont be in danger of the HLT driving too high. You might also benefit from an agitator of some sort in the HLT to make sure the temperature doesn't stratify and what you measure at the probe is the uniform temp of the whole tank. A little pump or just a stirrer on a small 12V motor would do it easily. Remember to put the coil as low down in the tank as possible, so if you are using less sparge water you don't lose heat-ex efficiency because the coil is not completely submerged.
> 
> ...



Hi, Thanks for that!
I'll def be batch sprging for now and using HLT water. My wort will already be in the kettle by the time i choose to sparge. For the HERMS i'm thinking about using a long stile heat element 2.6kv and having the heat ex coil horizontal, nice and low in the kettle with the element in the middle of the coil (hard to explain) so that direct heat is always applied to the wort but not overheating as the probe will be in the return manifold. this way, no wort will ever exceed the desired temp. Then when it comes time to sparge, 15 mins beforethe ned of the mash i can heat the sparge water during the mashout cycle and after i have pumped all wort into the kettle i cxan then pump my sparge water outof the HLT into the MT and stir. start heating the kettle, pump the second runnings into the kettle, making sure i've turned off the valvle at the kettle so as not getting any backflow. Does this sound right? My main concern is getting a responsive temp change and trying to keep it to three vessels?


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## bonj (1/8/08)

I think you're over analysing it. The extra space a small 10L HERMS/RIMS chamber takes up seems well worth not having to mess around pumping to the kettle and back. Not to mention the volume of mash liquor that you'll need in the kettle at all times, just to keep the heating elements submerged... that will translate to longer heating times for each step. A smaller separate unit will take less time to heat to each step temperature, and take much less mash liquor out of the mash.


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## Doogiechap (1/8/08)

Bonj said:


> I think you're over analysing it. The extra space a small 10L HERMS/RIMS chamber takes up seems well worth not having to mess around pumping to the kettle and back. Not to mention the volume of mash liquor that you'll need in the kettle at all times, just to keep the heating elements submerged... that will translate to longer heating times for each step. A smaller separate unit will take less time to heat to each step temperature, and take much less mash liquor out of the mash.



+1

I have a separate HERMS vessel and love the independence of the separate HLT. I started out with it being all together but it was frustrating having your HLT tied in to your desired Mash temps and not anything else. I have my temp control for my system in my heat exchanger like Thirsty suggested as a possibility. I have a cheap thermo on the output to my sparge to monitor output temps and I find I can easily track my mash temps via this method with good stability. That said I will be toying with probe placement to see how different the control is when based on the heat exchanger output.
So many options 
Cheers
Doug


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## Thirsty Boy (2/8/08)

gibbocore said:


> Hi, Thanks for that!
> I'll def be batch sprging for now and using HLT water. My wort will already be in the kettle by the time i choose to sparge. For the HERMS i'm thinking about using a long stile heat element 2.6kv and having the heat ex coil horizontal, nice and low in the kettle with the element in the middle of the coil (hard to explain) so that direct heat is always applied to the wort but not overheating as the probe will be in the return manifold. this way, no wort will ever exceed the desired temp. Then when it comes time to sparge, 15 mins beforethe ned of the mash i can heat the sparge water during the mashout cycle and after i have pumped all wort into the kettle i cxan then pump my sparge water outof the HLT into the MT and stir. start heating the kettle, pump the second runnings into the kettle, making sure i've turned off the valvle at the kettle so as not getting any backflow. Does this sound right? My main concern is getting a responsive temp change and trying to keep it to three vessels?




The way you are planning your coil, thats just the way I have mine. Although mine is in a separate vessel. I had my coil in the HLT at one stage, and the probe on the return manifold, and it can and will over heat.

The mashmaster temp controller is only a set point controller, not a PID, it doesn't have inbuilt ability to damp the system to prevent overshoot. Thik about it. If your setpoint is a 76 mash out, your wort is coming in at say 67 ... the controller is going to have to heat the HLT up to quite a bit more than 76 in order for the wort to be exiting the coil at 76, and it will only turn off when the first bit of wort comes out at that temp. Then when the next litre of water goes through the coil, its already a bit warmer than the previous litre... and it exits at higher than 76 and the next is even higher. With a set point controller, a large volume of water and the sensor on the manifold, its almost inevitable that you will overshoot your temps.

Sensor in the HLT - and the problem of driving the HLT too hot goes away, but then you have to be careful with your flow rates to make sure the difference between HLT set temp and your wort temp remains constant. A simple thermometer on the wort return allows you to monitor that.

A separate smaller HERMS vessel doesn't eliminate the problem, but it reduces it significantly, maybe enough to put the temp probe on the manifold. The volume of the mash being higher than the volume of water in the heat-ex means that it will suck excess heat out of the heat-ex without changing temp too much. Add a PID instead of a setpoint controller - and you can get it so that the system anticipates the overshoot and creeps up on your target temp, rather than going full blast till it gets there then missing the turn off.

I have the smaller chamber and the PID... and the mash temp still occasionally still overshoots by a degree or so, the PID settles it down in a few minutes, but its not ideal. Thats why I am looking to go to a RIMS - it has the smallest possible volume to be heated at any given point, and its ability to react to higher than desirable temp is instant. But RIMS have their own issues to deal with.

They'll all work OK, its just where and when you want to apply your effort to it. I don't want to have to watch the damn thing - If you dont mind having to keep an eye on it and deal with the overshoots or whatever, then you can do almost anything you want. 

Thirsty


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## gibbocore (2/8/08)

ahhh, this is starting to make a lot more sense. So the PID can learn the temp heating rates etc and will turn off or dampen before it over heats? Is it then just a matter of tweaking what my temp relationships are between heat ex and mash return?

Thanks for the reply!


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## Thirsty Boy (3/8/08)

Yeah, a PID can smooth the whole thing out and make life easier by reducing the need to worry about sensor placement or the relationship between tun temperature and output temp - but it still has its quirks, and its probably more complex than you need to go. Lots of people seem to be making perfectly workable systems with set-point controllers. I just freak out about not being degree perfect with my temps and have been on a constant improvement quest since I decided to change from a manual to a controlled HERMS system.

Thats the other option I suppose that no one has talked too much about - manual control.

I used to just control the temp by running the HLT at sparge temperatures all the time, and just switching on the pump when I wanted to re-circulate for a temperature adjustment. Pump on - then constant stirring of the tun and a hand held thermometer - at the right temperature, pump off. Essentially just as though I were adding heat via a burner, but with a heat-ex instead. That worked for ages and ages, but I got sick of stirring and watching. I wanted it automatic. So I bought some PIDs off e-bay and used them to create a rod for my own back.

To be perfectly honest, if I were starting brewing all over again - I'd give the pumps and coils and manifolds and false bottoms all a bloody miss and just do it BiaB. Still haven't found a reason why every sort of beer cant be brewed and brewed well BiaB. But, I love my goddamn leaky cantankerous overly complex brewery, so I guess I'm sticking with it. If the house burns down and it all needs to be replaced though.......


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## newguy (3/8/08)

I haven't seen this thread until now.

Total cost of my HERMS.....

2 x 64 qt aluminum pots. One is my hot liquor tank (HLT) and the other is my mash tun. I think they were ~$90 each.
Addition to HLT: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20.
1 x small electric motor. ~$3 from a salvage store. I rigged it up to turn a coat hanger which stirs the water. The motor itself is driven by a light dimmer circuit. That cost ~$10.
Addition to Mash Tun: False bottom kit from a homebrew store. It comes with a ~10" diameter perforated SS false bottom, and all the necessary fittings, elbows, etc. It also included a ball valve. I think that was ~$30.

1 x 6 or 7l enameled steel pot. Free. Old pot that my mom had given me many years ago. The wife didn't like it for cooking (it looked grungy) so it became my heat exchanger.
Additions to HE: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20. I had to carefully bend the element over so that it would remain completely submerged in the small HE. No cost, just time.
1 x 25' length of 3/8" ID copper tubing. I think this originally cost me ~$35, but I bought it many, many years ago. It was originally my immersion chiller, but it is now my HE coil.

1 x march pump. Cost ~$250.

1 x control unit. Home made (I'm an electrical engineer). Cost ~$100, but I had almost all of the parts laying around gathering dust. Quite a few hours went into writing the code for the controller. You can buy commercial PID units on ebay for a lot less.

Insulation for all containers: ~$40 for a hot water tank insulation kit. It had enough insulation to cover all vessels, tops, bottoms and sides.

Tubing, fittings, valves, hose clamps, etc: ~$100 or so. This cost also includes foam pipe insulation for the hoses.

Total cost ~$788.

Some other points:

HERMS vs. RIMS: A HERMS is slower than a RIMS because the wort doesn't come into direct contact with the heating element. However, with a RIMS there is always a danger of scorching the wort. You also have to be very careful about husks never being allowed into your heating chamber because they can lodge, which catches more husks, and it becomes a vicious circle. If those husks ever start to scorch, your beer suddenly becomes a rauchbier.

PID control: A properly tuned PID controller will change your wort temperature the fastest (when going for the next set temperature) without any overshoot. A commercial PID unit will have a learn function. You simply prime your system with a typical amount of water, punch in a set temperature, and the unit then does its thing. It applies heat and measures how long it took for the temperature to start to change, and also how much it finally ended up changing given a known (set) amount of heat. From these measurements, and others, it can tune itself fairly accurately. Don't ever try to let the controller learn the response on a real batch of beer unless you're willing to tolerate some wild temperature swings in your mash. One other thing: put the PID unit's temperature sensor in the mash, not on the outflow of the heating chamber (RIMS) or HE (HERMS). I have several sensors on my system, and the sensor inside the mash lags the output of the HE by a lot. I use the mash sensor as the input (drive) signal for my system because of this.

Hard piping vs. reinforced vinyl hoses: Go with vinyl as you can easily tear down the system for cleaning. You can also see what is inside the hoses and can replace as necessary with minimal cost.

Can't think of anything else right now. Let me know if you have any questions.


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## the_fuzz (3/8/08)

newguy said:


> I haven't seen this thread until now.
> 
> Total cost of my HERMS.....
> 
> ...



Great post mate, 

Now, I'm off to buy a PID from ebay


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## gibbocore (4/8/08)

newguy said:


> I haven't seen this thread until now.
> 
> Total cost of my HERMS.....
> 
> ...



Cheers for the post mate!

I have a question though. By not havingthe PID probe in the HE return, doent i run the risk of the wort get to hot, as the HE attempts to get the mash to the desired temp, dont i run the risk of denaturing enzymes in the wort? Or can i use multiple probes with the PID one for the desired mash temp and a precautionary probe in the HE telling it to not heat above a certain temp? Once i know where my probes are going to go i can start buying and designing.

Thanks in advance.


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## newguy (4/8/08)

gibbocore said:


> Cheers for the post mate!
> 
> I have a question though. By not havingthe PID probe in the HE return, doent i run the risk of the wort get to hot, as the HE attempts to get the mash to the desired temp, dont i run the risk of denaturing enzymes in the wort? Or can i use multiple probes with the PID one for the desired mash temp and a precautionary probe in the HE telling it to not heat above a certain temp? Once i know where my probes are going to go i can start buying and designing.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I have a probe inside the heat exchanger itself, mainly for curiosity, not for control. What I've found is that the HE itself RARELY gets more than 2 or 3C (5F) above the mash when ramping the temperature of the mash. I've done something like 40 or so batches on my HERMS out of the 165 I've ever brewed. The only time my HE got way, way above the mash was when I brewed a CAP with a lot of corn and my mash turned to pudding. The flow basically stopped altogether and that's when things went to hell. Don't worry - put the probe in the mash tun.


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## gibbocore (4/8/08)

Wicked, cheers.

Now to find myself a HE vessel. What about like one of those 5L mini Kegs?


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## gibbocore (4/8/08)

actually, scrao that idea, just thought about it a bit harder.


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## newguy (4/8/08)

As long as you can shoehorn the coil and a heating element inside, sure. Just be sure that you completely drain it between uses and try to remove the coil too. Aluminum + copper in contact for long periods = galvanic corrosion. Aluminum + SS apparently will do that too.


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## gibbocore (4/8/08)

ahhh, sweet, cheers. Will try and find something stainless i think, i'd like it to be prob around 7L and slim enough to fasten to the side of the mash tun. (i like things to look pretty)


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## kirem (4/8/08)

newguy said:


> I have a probe inside the heat exchanger itself, mainly for curiosity, not for control. What I've found is that the HE itself RARELY gets more than 2 or 3C (5F) above the mash when ramping the temperature of the mash. I've done something like 40 or so batches on my HERMS out of the 165 I've ever brewed. The only time my HE got way, way above the mash was when I brewed a CAP with a lot of corn and my mash turned to pudding. The flow basically stopped altogether and that's when things went to hell. Don't worry - put the probe in the mash tun.



Each system is different and until you are comfortable with the temperature difference between the hottest part of your system - the heat exchanger and the mash tun, I would strongly recommend that you use the temperature at the wort outlet of your heat exchanger.

Of course once you have confidence and some real world data from YOUR system then you can make a decision to go with the mash temp or heat-ex temperature as the input for your PID.


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## gibbocore (4/8/08)

ahhh, damn it, i was just about to hit the drawing board :lol:


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## kirem (4/8/08)

you will find that everyone has a difference of opinion on where to put the temp sensor, it is the great debate of HERMS and RIMS system.

I for one can't understand why you would guess or assume what temperature your wort is getting to in the coil. IF you measure the temperature in the mash tun and the coil you can choose what works for you.

IF you have a mash sitting at 67degC and on YOUR system due to heat loss between the heatex and the mash tun the heat-ex needs to heat the thin part up to 75degC to keep it at 67degC then you are denaturing your conversion enzymes.

new guy says he only gets a couple of degC difference this doesn't mean your system will be the same. you need to measure it.


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## kirem (4/8/08)

oh and good luck.


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## gibbocore (4/8/08)

fair enough, that does sound logical, i guess i'll try to construct it with as little distance in piping from heat ex to mash tun and just take some measurments.

Cheers.


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## schooey (4/8/08)

see... this is why I put my Herms coil in the HLT. I have a PID controlled element heating the HLT and I can set the max temp on it. I also have a PID controller that controls two solenoid valves, so when the desired temp is achieved, the valves switch and bypass the herms coil and the wort goes straight back into the mash. I figure by doing this, I can control the temp of the HLT to 4 or 5 degrees above the desired mash temp I'm trying to hit, therefore minimising the risk of overhitting temps and will allow me to put the probe for the bypass control in the mash tun where I want to know what the temp is.

Being untested though.... :lol: I'll have to see how it goes on a maiden voyage and no doubt I'll learn a few things along the way. The only worry I have is that it might take a little while between steps to heat the water in the HLT. To avoid this slightly, I put a manual bypass switch in so for the last 10 minutes of each step, I can just recirc the mash while the HLT heats up to the next step temp, then when the step time is up, flick back over to auto and run the mash through the HERMS to heat. 

As far as I know, there is no big drama with the wort taking ten or so miuntes to step up to the next mash temp, but I'd love to hear if any of you learned folk know otherwise.


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## kirem (4/8/08)

schooey said:


> see... this is why I put my Herms coil in the HLT. I have a PID controlled element heating the HLT and I can set the max temp on it. I also have a PID controller that controls two solenoid valves, so when the desired temp is achieved, the valves switch and bypass the herms coil and the wort goes straight back into the mash. I figure by doing this, I can control the temp of the HLT to 4 or 5 degrees above the desired mash temp I'm trying to hit, therefore minimising the risk of overhitting temps and will allow me to put the probe for the bypass control in the mash tun where I want to know what the temp is.
> 
> Being untested though.... :lol: I'll have to see how it goes on a maiden voyage and no doubt I'll learn a few things along the way. The only worry I have is that it might take a little while between steps to heat the water in the HLT. To avoid this slightly, I put a manual bypass switch in so for the last 10 minutes of each step, I can just recirc the mash while the HLT heats up to the next step temp, then when the step time is up, flick back over to auto and run the mash through the HERMS to heat.
> 
> As far as I know, there is no big drama with the wort taking ten or so miuntes to step up to the next mash temp, but I'd love to hear if any of you learned folk know otherwise.



what sort of solenoids are you using? I started with this system and dumped it pretty quickly. Most solenoids will block up and your PID will have to be setup to cycle the solenoids very slowly.

I wish you luck and would be very interested to see if you could get this to work.

One point to give some thought to, if you are passing the thin part of your mash with most of your enzymes through a coil that is 4-5degC higher than your mash temp you are exposing those enzymes to high and potentially denaturing temperatures for they time they are in the coil, despite what they cool back down to once they hit the grain bed, the damage is done and the enzymes aren't enzymes anymore.


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## Weizguy (4/8/08)

newguy said:


> As long as you can shoehorn the coil and a heating element inside, sure. Just be sure that you completely drain it between uses and try to remove the coil too. Aluminum + copper in contact for long periods = galvanic corrosion. Aluminum + SS apparently will do that too.


Aluminum(sp) is not happy spelling here.
I like English as a language. We Aussies may not always speak correctly, to some ears, but I still cling to the chosen spellings of my host nation.
</rant>
Peace, out
Leso, Davo, Johnno and Alien @ the Teninch brewery, manufacturers of fine, fermented malt-wort hop beverages for the connoisseur. Hey, do I have the Gulf slogan prize yet?


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## newguy (5/8/08)

Aluminum, Aluminium.....you know what I mean so who cares?  FWIW I'm from a commonwealth country and we spell it without the 2nd i. I still spell flavour, neighbour, etc. correctly. 

Denaturing enzymes: if you have a good coil, made of copper, and it's a decent length (approx. 8m at least), and your flow rate is good, you have nothing to worry about. That said, I understand the trepidation. As kirem has said, try it with the probe on your outflow, then switch it to the mashtun but also monitor the temperature in the HE.

That aside, I know that even though my HE will get 5F above my mash, given the inefficiencies in the heat exchanger as a whole I doubt that the outflow temperature matches the HE temperature. Therefore the temperature difference is probably smaller than 5F. I should also point out that my flow rate isn't as high as it could be because my system is piped with 1/2" ID hose, but my coil is 3/8" ID. That smaller ID is enough to drop the pressure & flow a lot. If you plumb your system with a consistent ID throughout, your flow rates will be even higher and the temp difference HE to mash will be lower.

....Assuming, of course, that the HE itself holds much less water than your mash tun.

I've lost track. How many independent variables is that so far?


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## schooey (5/8/08)

kirem said:


> what sort of solenoids are you using? I started with this system and dumped it pretty quickly. Most solenoids will block up and your PID will have to be setup to cycle the solenoids very slowly.
> 
> I wish you luck and would be very interested to see if you could get this to work.
> 
> One point to give some thought to, if you are passing the thin part of your mash with most of your enzymes through a coil that is 4-5degC higher than your mash temp you are exposing those enzymes to high and potentially denaturing temperatures for they time they are in the coil, despite what they cool back down to once they hit the grain bed, the damage is done and the enzymes aren't enzymes anymore.



Agree... solenoid valve blocking may be an issue, they are just standard Graznow 1/2" valves. I'm planning on doing some recirc on bypass until I see the wort clear up in the sight glass before switching to auto and running anything through the solenoid valves. As far as temps through the coil go, this will be part of the learning experience. I am thinking I will have a couple of runs to try and see what the minimum differential temp is between the HLT set temp and my desired mash step temp to be able to heat the mash to the next target step temp in a resonable amount of time, the lower the number the better, obviously...

What I'm interested in is finding out what temps enymes do denature at, and does this vary for different grain bills, different styles or just at the high end of the mash towards mash out?


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## newguy (5/8/08)

Enzymes don't have a magic temperature where they suddenly stop working - it's more of a % "mortality" vs temperature kind of thing. At 75C it's pretty much guaranteed 100% mortality/denaturing. When it comes to them doing their thing, it's kind of the same story - they have a range of "activity" with broad peaks vs. temperature.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/8/08)

even @ +75 the mortality is not instant, and its not like the liquid is in the coil for a long time. Yeah, you'll be killing off a few of them, but not so much that it will matter very much.

I had dozens of batches where I was running my HLT at sparge temps (78-80) and running the wort through a coil in there. Not constant circulation, just for long enough to achieve steps. Never an issue with conversion, never an issue with fermentability. So I doubt seriously that a few degrees hotter than your mash temp is going to hurt all that much.

I tend to agree with Kirem .. measure away and work out the best spot for you and your system

but IMHO, having the sensor in the actual mash tun is a recipe for chronic overshooting of your temperature. If you have a PID and/or a small HERMS vessel, then having the sensor on the return line, as close as possible to the point where the wort returns to the mash tun is best. Mine is attached to the copper wort return manifold in the mash tun, no more than 6inches from where returning wort meets mash. If you have your coil inside the HLT, and especially if you aren't using a PID, then sensor inside the HLT will stop overshooting and enzyme cooking.

If you can work a way to make the solenoids reliable, then I suspect that schooeys system is the ideal one

But, you will probably end up trying them all. I'd set up the system so you are able to put the sensor in any of those spots, then you'll just have to play around with it. That'll be half the fun.

TB


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## newguy (5/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> but IMHO, having the sensor in the actual mash tun is a recipe for chronic overshooting of your temperature.



Not at all. I hand tuned my system from scratch and came up with the PID coefficients using a spreadsheet. When I first put it together, it did have overshoot (1F which is ~0.5C), but given the time & research it would take to tune it perfectly I just said the hell with it. With low gravity worts the system gives me 1F overshoot, but with normal (1.050ish) gravity worts & up, I get no overshoot at all.

My point is that if your sensor is on the output of the HE coil, your actual mash temperature lags the coil's output by many minutes, if it actually comes up to that temperature at all.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/8/08)

well, thats where kirem's point comes in, everyones system is dfferent - sensor in the mash lead to 5-10C overshoot for me, no matter what I did. When I am warning of overshoot, I wouldn't bother if it was 0.5C

Actual mash temp doesn't lag the output temp by a long time in my system - few minutes max.

oh, and I never suggested that the sensor go at the output of the coil, I think thats a universally silly spot, worst of both worlds. On the return line _at the mash tun_.

different systems, different experiences - So we are back to just trying em all out and seeing what works really.


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## newguy (5/8/08)

Wow, that's a lot of overshoot. I shouldn't be surprised because a HERMS thermal response is pretty complex. It's certainly hard to model.

Sensor on mash drain line - good spot for it. A friend, many years ago, bought a commercial RIMS and its sensor was on the output of the heater. Ever since then I've always locked in that spot as being where everyone put the sensor.


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## kirem (5/8/08)

Granted, complete denautring of all the enzymes doesn't happen immediately, but if you are constantly recirculating through a system that heats upto 75degC in the heatexchnager and then cools back down to 67degC(mashtun) aren't you going to denature a significant % of enzymes over that time?

If a mashout is approximately 15mins at 75degC then isn't the above scenario very similar?

something that has occured to me, when rereading this thread and needs clarification; I don't care what temperature the water in the heatex is, I only care about the temperature of the recirulating thin part, this is what I measure at the heatex. And in reality the difference between measuring the temperature at the heat-ex or at the mashtun will come down to the distance of pipe between the heatex and the mashtun and how well insulated that pipe is.

I also measure at the heatex as I use it to heat on the way to kettle, so the wort hits the kettle at a much higher temperature than mashout and the kettle has to do little work to get the wort to a rolling boil.

I need to plug in a temperature like 90degC to my PID temp controller and make the heatex work hard to heat the wort on the way to the kettle.


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## newguy (5/8/08)

kirem said:


> Granted, complete denautring of all the enzymes doesn't happen immediately, but if you are constantly recirculating through a system that heats upto 75degC in the heatexchnager and then cools back down to 67degC(mashtun) aren't you going to denature a significant % of enzymes over that time?



Sure, but with my system the temperature difference between HE and mash is 2-3C. If my HE is at 75C, my mash temperature is 72C at worst.



> something that has occured to me, when rereading this thread and needs clarification; I don't care what temperature the water in the heatex is, I only care about the temperature of the recirulating thin part, this is what I measure at the heatex. And in reality the difference between measuring the temperature at the heat-ex or at the mashtun will come done to the distance of pipe between the heatex and the mashtun and how well insulated that pipe is.



With anyone's system, the mash temperature cannot be hotter than than the HE when ramping. If you know the temperature inside the HE, then you know the upper bound of the wort getting pumped back into the mash.


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## kirem (5/8/08)

newguy said:


> With anyone's system, the mash temperature cannot be hotter than than the HE when ramping.



I didn't say that.


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## newguy (5/8/08)

kirem said:


> I didn't say that.



I know you didn't. I did. You said you didn't care what the temperature of the water in the HE was; I was simply pointing out that if the flow rate is normal, then neither the temperature of the mash nor the wort coming out of the HE can be higher than the water in the HE.

Do you have to know the temperature of the HE? No. In all the batches I've mashed with my HERMS, with only the last one - that damn CAP - did I need to know the temperature in the HE. When it started to skyrocket and the mash wasn't following, it was a sure sign that I had no flow in the system. I was really glad I could monitor the HE's temperature that cursed day.


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## kirem (5/8/08)

newguy said:


> I know you didn't. I did.



I know you did and I didn't.


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## browndog (13/4/09)

Since I decided to make my new electric brewery a HERMS I've been doing a lot of reading up on the subject on many sites and I have to say this is just about the best thread I've come across.
One question I have relates to the position of the HE. All the systems I've seen, the HE is usually a pot and it sits underneath the HLT or MT. I am planning on using a 5kg aluminium fire extungiusher with the top chopped off and a 2400W element stuck up its bum. From what I have learned from this thread is that the best place to put your probe that drives the HE is right at the return to the MT. Therefore the shorter the return from the HE to the MT the better. My plan is to have the HE sitting at the same height at the MT with a short (maybe 6") pipe coming out of the HE and straight into the MT. Today I was experimenting withs ome 1/2" copper pipe trying to wind a 4"dia coil. I finally worked out how to do it and I should have about 6M inside the HE. The only thing that concerns me is the ability of the march pump to have enough head pressure to get a return flow. Will having the HE at the same level as the MT make the pump work harder than having it sitting at the same height or below the pump?



cheers

Browndog

PS Kirem, I know you know you did and he didn't LOL...


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## razz (13/4/09)

G'day Browndog. I have my pump push up to 1.2 mtrs then through 8mtrs of 1/2" copper (in the HLT) befor coming back down to the mashtun. I don't think you will have to many hassles. I wouldn't put the HE below the pump, if you make the pump the lowesy point in your plumbling then it will always stay flooded (primed)


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## browndog (13/4/09)

razz said:


> G'day Browndog. I have my pump push up to 1.2 mtrs then through 8mtrs of 1/2" copper (in the HLT) befor coming back down to the mashtun. I don't think you will have to many hassles. I wouldn't put the HE below the pump, if you make the pump the lowesy point in your plumbling then it will always stay flooded (primed)



Thanks Razz, heat exchanger up with the tun it is then!

cheers

Browndog


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