# A Guide to "Extract with Specialty Grain" Brewing



## carniebrew

*A Guide to "Extract with Specialty Grain" Brewing*

*NOTE*: This guide assumes some level of knowledge and experience in home brewing. It is meant as a guide for brewers looking for that next step up from no-boil brewing using pre-hopped kit cans, but who may not be ready to take on the _holy grail_ of all grain brewing. You should already be familiar with cleaning, sanitising, taking gravity measurements and bottling/kegging your beer. If not, there are many articles and threads dedicated to these processes elsewhere on AHB, please make use of them!


*What is Extract Brewing?*

Extract brewing (sometimes called “Full/All Extract Brewing”) is the process of using un-hopped malt extract to make full volume brews, with either full or partial volume boils. It differs from "Kit & Kilo" (K&K) brewing by using only un-hopped extract (i.e. extract that has not yet been through a brewer's boil/hopping process). This means you need to perform the boil and hop additions yourself, in exactly the same way as an all grain brewer does following their 'mash'. In addition to using malt extract, you can also steep "specialty grain" (malted grain not needing to be mashed) into your brew, adding freshness and allowing for a higher level of control over the end flavour and colour of your beer.

Extract brewing is also perfectly suited to partial volume boils, where the brewer is unable to boil the entire batch volume due to either pot size or heating capacity. Because some of the extract can be held back until the very end of the boil, optimal boil gravities can be achieved to maximise hop acid extraction and lighten the colour of the end brew. This is known as the late extract addition method. Basically what this means is you can make 20 or more litres of top quality home brew even if you can only boil 5 or 10 litres on your kitchen stove. This is probably the biggest draw-card of extract brewing, you need little more than a 4 litre pot at home to make a full batch of great quality beer...with full control over the hops and abv%.

From Brew Wiki: "You can make very high quality beer using extract brewing, but it does not offer the full range of ingredient and process variations that are possible with all grain brewing."


*What is malt extract?*

I have included this section in the guide because I believe there's some confusion as to what extract really is. Simply, malt extract is nothing more than dehydrated wort. Paraphrased from the Coopers website:

Malt extract is produced by mashing finely ground malted barley (as well as un-malted barley, and also wheat depending on the style of extract) with water at a temperature not exceeding 75C, then filtering and evaporating the resulting liquid under partial vacuum until it is the consistency of thick honey. This is known as Liquid Malt Extract (LME). To produce Dried Malt Extract (DME) the LME is spray dried to produce a fine, free flowing powder product.

Malt extract can be purchased in a variety of sizes, most commonly in 1.5kg containers for LME (note that despite being a liquid LME is normally sold by weight, not volume….1 litre of LME weighs approximately 1.5kg). LME can also be bought in bulk, such as Briess’ CBW LME range in 15kg containers (at some home brew shops such as Grain & Grape). DME can be purchased in bags ranging from 500 grams up to 25kg, but will usually be found in 1kg and 5kg amounts. Because DME is so easily stored after partial use, it is often used to ‘top up’ the LME malt bill in a brew…for example, a home brewer may use an entire can (1.5kg) of LME, and 800 grams of a 5kg bag of DME to achieve their desired OG. The empty LME can is discarded, and the remaining 4.2kg of DME is re-sealed and returned to the cupboard for the next brew day.

Both LME and DME are available in different styles, with each style produced using a different variety of barley and/or wheat. The most common types are “Light”, “Amber”, “Dark” and “Wheat”, however some extract producers make further varieties such as Briess’ CBW “Pilsen Light”, “Munich”, “Rye” and “Porter”. It is also worth noting that wheat extract is almost exclusively a blend of wheat and barley grains, normally in a ratio of 60/40 or 65/35 wheat to barley.


*What is specialty grain?*

Chapter 13 of Palmer's "How to Brew" contains a lot more detail if you're interested...but to paraphrase: Specialty grains are grains that do not need to be "mashed" like base grain....they have been through a kilning process that converts the starches to sugars directly in the grain's hull. Specialty grain contains more complex sugars, some of which are unfermentable, lending a caramel-type sweetness. Once cracked, specialty grain can simply be steeped in hot water (< 70C) to add colour, flavour and freshness to extract brews. Examples include crystal/caramel, toasted and roasted malts.

*How to brew beer using malt extract*

The process of making beer using malt extract is very similar to that used by all grain brewers once they have completed their mash. In fact when performing a full-volume boil with extract, the process is basically identical once the boil timer is started. Once the wort has been brought to a rolling boil the hop additions begin, then post-boil the wort is cooled (either using the rapid chill or no chill method), yeast is pitched and fermentation begins.

Partial volume boil extract brewing differs slightly, in that only the amount of extract necessary to bring the boil gravity up to around 1040 is added at the start of the boil, with the rest of the extract held back until the end of the boil. Both full and partial volume boil processes are discussed in the following guide.

Probably the best way to start out with full extract brewing is to find a recipe for the style of beer you'd like to make. The recipe database here on AHB (currently still not fully operational) has many 'extract with specialty grain' recipes, as do many other sites such as homebrewtalk.com and hopville.com (although you will need to convert the ingredients from imperial to metric on those last two).

I highly recommend using a software package for designing your extract brews. You can enter the recipe you've found, tweak it to your own personal preferences if need be, and print out a 'brewday worksheet' to refer to during your brewing. You can also tell the software what your boil volume will be, and it will show you if any changes to hop quantities are needed to achieve the recipe's target IBU's. My own personal experience, backed up by fellow partial volume boil brewers, is that when boiling 10 litres or more, the original recipe's hop schedule should not need adjustment. Lower volumes than 10 litres will likely need more hops at each addition to stay close to the intended outcome. But you can decide this for yourself after your first few brews.

There are a number of software packages available for extract brewers, such as Brewmate, and Ianh’s free “Kit & Extract Beer Designer”, a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet that has become my tool of choice since I started extract brewing. These packages allow you to enter the amount and type of extract, specialty grain, adjuncts, hops and yeast you will be using in your brew, and shows you what the resulting abv%, IBU level and EBC colour should be achieved. Ian’s spreadsheet even has an extremely useful graph to show how your recipe compares to the style you’re trying to achieve.

Once your beer has been designed, and you have your ingredients ready to go, here’s how to put it all together:

1. If using specialty grains, steep them in at least 3 times their weight in water heated to around 70 degrees celcius (e.g. 3 litres for 1kg of spec grain). This could be done by placing the grain in a hop/grain sock (or directly in a 2nd pot; see "Other Suggestions" below)….heat the water to 70 degrees, turn off the heat and place the grain into the pot, dunking and swirling to ensure it is fully wetted. With specialty grain the water temperature is not as critical as with an all grain “mash”. Starting at 70C then letting it drop naturally during the steep is fine.

2. After 30 minutes, remove the grain bag and let it drain into the pot (squeezing if you like, or rinsing with < 70C water). Put the bag aside and turn on the heat. Fill the pot with water to your desired boil volume (straight from a boiling kettle will speed things up) and bring the whole lot to the boil (this can be done with the lid on to speed up the process, but be very careful not to let it boil over). While the water is reaching the boil, get your extract and hops measured out and ready.

3. As soon as you achieve a boil, turn off the heat. Add enough LME/DME to bring your boil gravity up to 1040 (if doing a full volume boil, you may elect to add all your extract now. If doing a smaller volume boil, your software should tell you how much extract is needed). Without accounting for any steeped grain, a 1040 gravity is achieved by adding around 100gm DME/130gm LME for every litre of water in your pot. 300 grams of steeped grain reduces the amount of DME/LME needed in a 10l boil to 900gm DME/1.1kg LME.

4. Mix the malt well, ensuring it is completely blended into the water. Any malt that settles to the bottom of the pot may be scorched during the boil, darkening your beer and contributing burnt sugar/caramelised flavours. Turn the heat back on and return to the boil.

5. Once back to the boil, start your hop timer (normally 60 minutes), and perform your bittering hop addition, stirring well. Continue your hop additions during the boil as desired.

6. If you haven't added all of your extract to the boil as yet, with 5 minutes left on the boil timer turn off the heat and quickly add the remainder of your malt extract and any adjuncts you may be using. Mix well again, and return once again to the boil. Boil for a few more minutes then the boil is complete. 

7. If using no-chill you can now cube your wort (and if you did a partial volume boil top up to your desired batch volume). If chilling, cool your wort to the desired temperature using your preferred method (ice bath, immersion chiller etc). 

8. Transfer the wort to the fermenter (if you're brewing in a pot without a tap, you may choose to strain the boil through a sanitised strainer to remove the hop matter). Top up to the desired batch volume as necessary, and remember to stir the wort well to ensure the top up water is blended fully with the boiled wort. Once your wort is at the desired temperature, take an OG reading, pitch your yeast and ferment.

That’s it! Once your beer is fermented, bottle or keg as per normal, and enjoy! The process above will provide an excellent grounding if you decide to move to all-grain brewing somewhere down the track, or you may be making beer so good using this method you might very well stick with it, as many extract brewers around the world already do. If you’re doing partial volume boils, you can even combine some of this method with all grain, by performing “partial mashes”, where you mash enough grain (perhaps half) to achieve the 1040 boil gravity, then use extract to complete the grain bill at the end of the boil.

*Other suggestions*

As always, there is more than one way to skin a cat. My guide above is primarily driven by what I learned from following Palmer’s “How to Brew”, adjusted to allow for late extract addition (which Palmer doesn’t
mention), as well as my practical experience. I have tried to keep it pretty simple and easy to follow. While discussing this guide with other AHB members, I’ve received some great suggestions for speeding up the process, and some alternative approaches for some of the steps above. I’m sure we’ll see many more ideas in the ensuing discussion below, that you may choose to integrate into your process once you’re comfortable with how everything works. Here’s some examples;

Instead of using your main brew pot to heat your steeping water to 70 degrees then steeping for 30 minutes, use a second pot filled with enough hot water (e.g. 2 litres) straight from the tap to steep your grains. While your steep is happening, brew your kettle a number of times, pouring the boiled water into your main pot while on high heat to keep it boiling. When your steep is finished, pour the contents of the 2nd pot into your main pot and skip straight to step 3.
Instead of using a hop/grain sock for steeping grains, put the grain directly into a second pot with 70C water (as above). If you want to keep the pot at 70C, place it in the oven at that temperature for 30 minutes. Otherwise just leave it on the stovetop and let the temperature drop. Stir occasionally. When the 30 minutes is over strain the water into your brew kettle, return the grain to the steeping pot and add another litre or so of hot (< 70C) water. Stir, then strain once again into the brew kettle.
Instead of adding any remaining fermentables towards the end of the boil (in step 6), skip to step 7, and while your boiled wort is chilling, add the fermentables along with a litre or so of hot boiled water directly into the fermenter and dissolve. Once your wort is chilled, pour on top of the wort already in the fermenter. The main reason for adding the fermentables to the end of the boil is to ensure no bacteria is introduced to the wort…if you’re ok with this small risk, you can save time by not boiling them at all.
If you are doing a partial volume boil (and not using “no chill”), you can speed up the chilling of your wort by using ice in place of some of your top up water. The day before you brew, freeze some boiled water in a sanitised container (e.g. 2 litre ice cream container). Then when you are chilling your pot post-boil, add the ice directly into the pot to bring the temp down much more rapidly (or after you’ve poured your wort into the fermenter if your pot is too full). You then have the added benefit of using even more boiled water in your final wort, rather than straight from the tap.


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## Liam_snorkel

Ten points for effort carniebrew. Perhaps wait until the articles section is back online, and you can get to work with other members of the forum consolidating the number of existing articles relating to extract brewing.

EDIT: spaeelingk


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## Hippy

Yeh mate well done and I'm sure you will help a lot of people ready to take the next step.


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## Nick JD

The first rule of educating people is you must not have a need to be seen as educated. Dumb it down as far as you can and then dumb it down some more. When we know stuff it's easy to forget just how much we know. People will still be confused by your dumbest writing. Trust me.

The second rule is, don't use unfamiliar nomenclature.

See what I did there?

Don't use big words when little ones mean the same thing.

Third rule is use pictures. You can never have enough pictures. The pictures should show what the noob should see when they do it.

Forth rule is to remind yourself about the first rule repeatedly. Your task is to edumacate others, not have them think you are smart. Smart is getting others smarter.

Fifth rule is pour a beer.

Unfortunately we spend our whole life trying to win points by writing cleverly. When we want to impart knowledge we've often lost the ability to explain it how it actually happens. In simple terms.

I think it's awesome that you've taken the time to do this. How about getting the camera out and taking us for a walk-through, in simple language, of your brew day? Omit the theory and the underlying gist ... just give the nuts and bolts of making great extract beer. This forum needs it.


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## carniebrew

Happy to add pics from next brew day....gave it some thought last brew day and couldn't think of much I would be showing different though? Here's some extract. Here's a pot. Here's some boiling water. Here's 10 litres of boiling water with 1.3kg of malt mixed in to make 1040 boil gravity.


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## Nick JD

Imagine you've never seen either a bag of LDME, or a hop pellet before.

You've been warming a can of goop from Coles in some hot water, pouring it and a kg of sugar in your fermenter - and adding cold water and yeast.

Imagine you don't even know that hops are funny cone flowers. An IBU. WTF is an IBU?

Ignore all the fluff.

A guy who has only ever made K&K walks in your door while you are just about to start a batch. Write what you would _show _that guy.

That's the key here: _show_, don't tell. Nine out of ten people are visual learners, and ten out of ten people who need this will shit bricks when the LDME they've never used before turns to malteezers in their hot water.

When that guy you're showing says, "Huh?" in your head, simplify rather than expand. Tell him it doesn't matter - add this much hops for this long of boiling: he can discover IBUs in his own time. And he will. Knowledge is addictive.


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## bum

Nick JD said:


> A guy who has only ever made K&K walks in your door while you are just about to start a batch. Write what you would tell that guy.


Let me preface this by saying that I completely agree that his tone is all wrong.

Nick, the trouble with that attitude is that it assumes that people finish reading a guide and think "Cool, what underpins all this?" rather than "Cool. Done. Too easy."

I think there is a large and vocal segment of the AHB community that bears this out. People who seem to think there's nothing in between stove-tops/coffee grinders and 6 thousand pumps and 3-phase rennos.

Surely there's a happy medium?


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## pk.sax

Probably mention that using dry malt extract of any flavour in your brew is not that different to the bag of BE whatever you add to a coopers kit. It contains malt extract that is ready to be fermented upon hydration.

Only difference to the kit is that it is I hopped and needs bittering (and flavour/aroma if that is your wont).

Brewing with extract isn't rocket science, but there is good reason it's not that popular, you pay kit prices for the extract and still have to bitter it yourself. fml. Grain is cheaper. Mashing takes no time (not like you have to stand over your mash), boiling can be left unattended after the first bit, come back and pop in some hops.

Your attacks on all grain brewers are silly, we do it for the love of the process as much as the beer and the cost. Preaching to the wrong crowd. Hitherto, comparing the 'cost' and 'time' benefits of your style of brewing to brewing from base malted grain is very irrelevant. You got a bastardised version setup based on some cheap malt extract you laid hands on and it makes (hopefully/likely) palatable and perhaps pleasing beer. Congrats.

If you are trying to push that to people, I'd suggest strongly that you cut out the AG comparison crap. It's not doing your intentions any good.

PS: you can take the jibe at the top of your post about making it simpler for AG brewers and shove it up.


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## Econwatson

I feel that a guide like this is pretty much aimed at guys like me. I've done one extract brew, a kit and a toucan, so I am really just starting out. I also feel that most people start on a kit (even though I didn't!) and maybe move on to extract later, where by that time they have at least a decent knowledge of some of the terminology.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Beer/?ALLSTEPS

The link above is what I followed to make my first ever batch of beer. I was basically herded through the process by the instructor, and when I came on here I really had no idea what I had done apart from make beer. My knowledge of IBUs and any other terminology was absolute zero.

Perhaps if carniebrew included a glossary of terms, at the end, it could help a novice. But as it stands, the guide tells you more why you should do things, as well as how, which I think is a really good thing. If he had to define every technical term he used within the guide, it would become bloated, and less useable.

For me personally, carniebrew has been a great help to me beginning my time as a home-brewer, answering my dumb questions and filling the gaps in my knowledge, and I'd like to thank him for that!


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## slash22000

practicalfool said:


> Probably mention that using dry malt extract of any flavour in your brew is not that different to the bag of BE whatever you add to a coopers kit. It contains malt extract that is ready to be fermented upon hydration.


This is poor advice.

Coopers Brew Enhancer 1 contains 600g dextrose, 400g maltodextrin. Brew Enhancer 2 contains 250g dry malt, 250g maltodextrin and 500g dextrose. I think everybody would agree that brewing a beer with pure dry malt is going to be different than brewing a beer made almost entirely of dextrose.

I would also note that people seem much more pissed off about extract brewing than Carniebrew seems pissed off by all-grain brewing.


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## bum

There's no reason for any comparison of methods at all. It isn't a treatise on the relative merits of the method (well, it shouldn't be). It is a how-to.

And equating the cost of setting up a 3V system to that of a BM is ludicrous. Many people build their tuns with stuff they have lying about the house/garage.

Since we're persisting with this - why do you stress that this isn't a guide for beginners then go on to explain what malt is?


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## Econwatson

Do people consider BIAB and traditional 3V methods as linked because they are both AG? Because the BIAB guide thread compares the two quite explicitly.

Maybe it would be good to have the method first, then comparisons (if there are going to be any) after the guide. That way people can read and compare if they want to. But if people have clicked on a guide to partial brewing, you can be fairly certain they already know they want to brew one, and don't need further convincing.


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## bum

Econwatson said:


> But if people have clicked on a guide to partial brewing,


And so it begins...

This is not partial brewing. This is not your fault.

I agree with your points though.


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## carniebrew

Econwatson said:


> Do people consider BIAB and traditional 3V methods as linked because they are both AG? Because the BIAB guide thread compares the two quite explicitly.
> 
> Maybe it would be good to have the method first, then comparisons (if there are going to be any) after the guide. That way people can read and compare if they want to. But if people have clicked on a guide to partial brewing, you can be fairly certain they already know they want to brew one, and don't need further convincing.


Aye. And it's in the K&E forum too, where it belongs. And I would prefer to have it in the articles, but that's obviously not an option right now.

Need to be somewhat careful with calling it 'partial brewing'...there is 'partial mash' brewing that it could be confused with. I use the term "partial boiling", which I picked up mostly from homebrewtalk.com, but am open to something more appropriate. Hell I call 330 ml stubbies with slender necks "long necks", and 750ml bottles tallies...my mates reckon 750ml bottles are long necks and anything smaller is just a stubbie (with no differentiation over VB short necks and every other slender elongated neck). They've never heard of a 'tallie'. Might be back from growing up in country WA.


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## pk.sax

I haven't a problem with that what you just said.

And no, you putting stuff after the fact does not help. Why not start with the simple and cut out the comparisons, period. Is that so hard? You admit yourself that this isn't aimed at the all grain brewers. Then why bother with comparisons? Just keep it out of it. Your guide is clear as the Brisbane river was after the storms that just hit us. It IS poor.
I've just pointed out one of the annoying factors that make it very poor. That bit is consistent over your posting, you know I've commented on that before too.

Btw, I've actually asked a few different kit brewers - why? Out of curiosity. And got decent answers, a few have even discussed some points that they picked up off others who just bagged their beer but didn't bother helping. Hopefully I answered a thing or two that helps someone improve their stuff or get rid of annoying aspects of their kit. Again, keep it simple and they listen.


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## bradsbrew

Thread cleaned.


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## Scottye

bum said:


> I strongly suspect there will be more who will hampered by his efforts.
> 
> I only see one person suggesting extract brewing isn't worth doing. The victim complex needs to end, guys.


Fair enough. The numbered points though, apart from boiling the extract and using a sock for the grain are pretty much how I do it. To me following this method produces better beer than using a kit base,


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## bum

VonScott said:


> Fair enough. The numbered points though, apart from boiling the extract and using a sock for the grain are pretty much how I do it. To me following this method produces better beer than using a kit base,


For sure. I've already mentioned that the very small part that actually addresses his stated intention (the numbered steps) aren't pure evil. Dunno if you read all of the rest of it? Some of it is pretty not great - I just don't like the idea of people setting out to consolidate pretty not great information into a one-stop-shop of crap.

If I were to offer an improvement on the steps themselves, a quick rinse of the grains after the soak might be useful.


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## thedragon

Carnie, I don't brew with extract, nor do I agree with everything that you say. To me biab is not much more effort that the process that you've described. I enjoy the AG process, love the fact that I'm doing things from scratch (well almost) and I enjoy the beer I make.

Extract brewing is your thing, just as biab is mine. Full respect to you for giving the guide a crack, I'm sure there are K&K brewers out there that will try your process - right or wrong - and work out what works for them, just as you've done. 

Maybe just tone down the AG v extract rivalry. Your initial guide came across as being a little defensive, justifying why the extract method is just as good as or better than AG. It gives the impression that you see extract brewing as being less than AG and you're trying to make up for it. 

To me the best how to guide on here is Nick's biab guide: in his guide Nick didn't spend time justifying why biab is better, worse or equal to 3v or any other method. He just sticks to the process. 

Chin up and keep up the passion.

Edit: typo


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## Scottye

bum said:


> For sure. I've already mentioned that the very small part that actually addresses his stated intention (the numbered steps) aren't pure evil. Dunno if you read all of the rest of it? Some of it is pretty not great - I just don't like the idea of people setting out to consolidate pretty not great information into a one-stop-shop of crap.
> 
> If I were to offer an improvement on the steps themselves, a quick rinse of the grains after the soak might be useful.


Yes I rinse, and its easy because I don't use a sock. If it was me I would just say for anyone looking to make the next step here is how I do an extract brew, steps 1, 2, 3.... But then I feel that everything thing should be structured.


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## Bribie G

Extract brewing is a great way of getting into making beer in the USA which does not have a tradition of kit brewing as we do in Australia or indeed the UK. With major manufacturers such as Briess, the home brew industry based itself very much on extract over there until the rise of AG, and with such a large population, ample supplies of good quality product seem to be available.

It's a different story in Australia where extract is not a big seller and it's easy to get lumbered with poor stale stock unless you know where to shop. My own experience has been that I could never find a reliable supply - it either chucked a horrible chill haze in the case of confectioners LDME or it was way past its best in the case of LME. Maybe a section on where to buy extract might be helpful to newbies, to avoid disappointment.

I should point out straight away that one of the best early brews I made was on extract and I have tried some very nice extract drops of the APA family.


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## Diesel80

I think in his (edit: nicks BIAB) guide somewhere (havent looked at it for a while) he even poured a beer?
Make sure you do the same when you add photos.

Also, as a guide, since you either brewed or worked at a B.O.P site, why not take a leaf out of their guides for extract brewing?
They have colour coded containers for things, measure out x litres of this and that, bang the lot in and start the timer etc.
All that would go ace with photos to explain everything.

They are seriously dumbed down and you know what? Any johnny bogan can rock in and make beer, so long as JB can read that is, even at a basic level.

Keep going carnie, you will get there with the guide.

Cheers,
D80


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## carniebrew

I've chopped it down to 'reduce the rivalry' as suggested, and change the way a few things read.


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## Yob

Bribie G said:


> It's a different story in Australia where extract is not a big seller and it's easy to get lumbered with poor stale stock


perhaps this is part of the reason that Coopers is now entering the American market with extract/kits? 

Interestingly.. do folks know where extract started? Prohibition!! Malt extract was still legal so they made it as a way to escape prohibition laws.. you bunch of frikkin outlaws :beerbang:

Personally, I missed the whole extract/stove top/BIAB thing and went right on to 3V/4V from KnB/Partial.. pretty easy step if you ask me...

not that you did


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## Nick JD

I'm actually thinking about going back to extract brewing for my Ales - APA and IPAs especially.

Recently tasted some "if you hadn't told me, I would not have guessed it was extract" beers, adn sure, they weren't delicate lagers, but in an IPA with eight metric bucketloads of C hops and a quick steep of some spec malt and you'd be hard-pressed to notice it's not AG.

Thing is: you have to buy the extract in bulk, or it breaks your brewing heart when you add up the cost compared to AG.

Most people enter extract brewing having realised that adding hops and boiling a bit, and ditching the cans can really improve their beer. But have they got temp control yet? Maybe. Have they explored the world of liquid yeasts? Probably not.

See, I reckon all AG brewers should flick the chips off their shoulder occasionally and step down a peg or two and do a simple extract IPA, or an extract Saison, or Dubbel - just to go, "Fark, it's not the grain mashing that's made my beers wicked ... it's the body of brewing knowledge I've forgotten I now know."


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## carniebrew

Nick JD said:


> I'm actually thinking about going back to extract brewing for my Ales - APA and IPAs especially.
> 
> Recently tasted some "if you hadn't told me, I would not have guessed it was extract" beers, adn sure, they weren't delicate lagers, but in an IPA with eight metric bucketloads of C hops and a quick steep of some spec malt and you'd be hard-pressed to notice it's not AG.
> 
> Thing is: you have to buy the extract in bulk, or it breaks your brewing heart when you add up the cost compared to AG.
> 
> Most people enter extract brewing having realised that adding hops and boiling a bit, and ditching the cans can really improve their beer. But have they got temp control yet? Maybe. Have they explored the world of liquid yeasts? Probably not.
> 
> See, I reckon all AG brewers should flick the chips off their shoulder occasionally and step down a peg or two and do a simple extract IPA, or an extract Saison, or Dubbel - just to go, "Fark, it's not the grain mashing that's made my beers wicked ... it's the body of brewing knowledge I've forgotten I now know."


Absolutely...the minute control AG gives you over the final product is unmatchable with extract, both in the types of grain used and of course amounts of each. I currently have 3 types of extract on hand...Briess' CBW Golden Light LME, Bavarian Wheat LME (both 15kg) and Sparkling Amber DME (5kg). I almost always use at least two of those in my ales...the majority being the Light LME, with a little of the wheat, amber if I'm needing some more colour. Except when making my hefe, where it's nothing but the Bavarian Wheat (Briess wheat extract is 65/35 wheat/barley...yes, I like it that high...YMMV). 

So a combo of extracts is the only control I have over my 'base malt'. Spec grain gives you some ability to jazz that up, like I did in a dunkel recently where I used 2.2kg wheat lme and 500gm amber dme which gave only 13 EBC of colour....but added another 45 EBC via 150gm Carafa Special 1, 250gm Caramunich 3, and 500gm of dark wheat malt. So even though it's a dunkel made from extract, I believe it has a fantastic depth of flavour and aroma you'd likely never get out of a kit brew. Of course the yeast has a lot to do with that too.

You've nailed a couple of issues in price and freshness too. Compared to grain, it's exxy to buy 3kg of LME every time you want to make a beer...depending where you get it, likely around $25. That makes a batch nearly $40 when you add spec grain, hops and yeast (assuming you're buying hops and yeast...not too many extract brewers will be growing their own hops and re-culturing their yeast). While that works out to around $16 a slab (~8 litres) compared to the $60 you would pay for a slab of craft brew at the bottlo, it's still significantly more than an all grain brew...which I'm guessing would be closer to what, $8 a slab?

I personally worked around that price issue by buying bulk LME from G&G, but that's where the freshness issue comes in. I now have 30kg of LME that lets me make beer for around $11 a slab...but I need to get through it within 6 months, unless I'm going to split it into smaller containers and refrigerate it (or even freeze it as many yanks do). So bulk LME may not be suitable for anyone brewing less than say 20 batches a year. Bulk DME (G&G sell 50 pound bags, i.e. 22 odd kilos) can be stored much longer than LME, but can be hard to find, and is not actually all that much cheaper in large volumes for some reason...G&G's prices have 5kg of the CBW brand (Condensed Brewers Wort for anyone wondering) for $9 per kg, whereas the 22kg bag only drops to $8 per kg. Given you need 2.5kg of DME to add the same amount of fermentable sugars as 3kg of LME, it still works out to $20 for the malt....or $14 per slab.


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## carniebrew

Also, while surfing the http://www.brewingwithbriess.com website this morning, I saw this page for the first time: http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Homebrewing/Extract_Brewing_Basics.htm

It's interesting to see how a sales company describes the process, and the comparisons they make between extract and all grain brewing (Briess sell both grain and extract btw). I won't quote them here for fear of starting a war all over again, but they go into a fair bit of detail around the ability of extract to make great beer, and time/equipment discussions.


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## pk.sax

Yea, salesmen....

Oh well, since this topic is back on track, once I had all my equipment figured out I've gone to boil within 90 minutes for a simple infusion or directly heated step mash regime. Spend way more time farting around figuring out the grain profile and hop choice. Grain profile is a relatively moot point with extract brewing except the spec grain additions.

Will see how I go, might throw down a simple extract brew if I get my kegging sorted out. Then again, I found my sheets of voile recently... Just need a keg to cut open.

More on topic, one of my first brews, I'd boiled in a 10.5L pot, a can of kit + a can of lme with some hallertau for about half an hour I think. It was a nice beer, didn't age amazingly a year later but no oxidation happened, can liken it to some of the commercial ambers out there that are really low in flavour. At the start it was malty as and I was stoked wih the results. Did have to age it a month though.


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## Diesel80

Carnie,

do you live anywhere near a B.O.P ubrewit or whatever?
I have purchased some extract direct from them at a good price before. The guy was a top bloke though, not sure that they would all be keen on low margin sales.

Also grabbed some hops from them too in a pinch.

They buy bulk coopers extract, light, amber, dark and molasses or whatever it is.
Not sure how that would compare to you needing to buy 20 cases worth of extract and use it within a certain period.

Cheers,
D80


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## carniebrew

Nearest one is about 30 mins away for me, but it's a great call...I see UBrewIT's online shop has LME for $8 to $9 a litre (~1.5kg) for their light/amber/wheat/dark...would be worth the trip if they'd discount for 10 litres or more. Can only ask.

They also have spec grain for $6 a kilo, hops for $10 per 100 grams and dex for $2.50 a kilo. Not exactly world beating but as you say, good in a pinch.


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## Diesel80

Can't remember what i paid (couples of years ago) but it was certainly significantly cheaper than the coopers tins of malt for, well exactly the same stuff.
I just took along a couple of 2L containers and filled from the drums.

Cheers,
D80


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## Bribie G

When I ran a LHBS in the late 1970s around the time kits were making an appearance, LME was a big seller - we only got the one variety from Wander which came in 30L "paint tins" and we would dispense it out of a big tub on the counter fitted with a "honey gate". Bring your own container. Nearly all LHBS had this system. We used to go through five or six tins a week in lil' old Maryborough.

When I got back into brewing again 5 years ago I was surprised to see that this had all disappeared, probably killed off by kits.


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## Yob

Malt Extract during Prohibition


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## DU99

sounds like bunch of critic's that can't decide what's in and what's not..if we all brewed the same way according to the "BREW GODs" if there's such a thing.we wouldn't be all beer would be the same tasteless swill..we all brew different even in Kit..remember the "beer" was discovered pre christ.. and did the have guide on what to do..i treat book's as guides it's whats worked for them..remember we all don't live in same climate and the same water..end of my 2 Cents..i have learned to make a better beer from being here and reading.. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle

Anyone notice carniebrew took valid criticisms on board and updated/edited his guide accordingly? Presumably he will continue to do so where warranted.
I would have thought that was worthy of acknowledgement rather than censure.


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## carniebrew

To be honest the only reason I posted the guide without more review was because I'd seen my 'pro membership' would let me edit it forever and a day. We use the term "living documents" at work to describe stuff that can and should be updated regularly. That may have been horribly naive in hindsight, but I certainly didn't expect it to get branded as "pure evil". Thanks needs to go to the mods of this site that have had to work overtime to clean up some of the vicious stuff.

I'm still new here, and am learning there's some nerves that should never be touched, no matter how good your intent. I will certainly try and take the feedback on board that I should be less defensive of my choice of ingredients....but some guys do make it tough. We got told in one thread last week that if you make beer from extract, then it's "not made with what beer is made from".


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## MrGibbon

Thanks carniebrew, I appreciate the effort.
Very useful guide.
Cheers!


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## drewstertherooster

This info will certainly help me with my next brew. Did my first brew (extract) this morning, bit of a rush as I wanted to get one done as soon after moving into my new place as possible. Made some mistakes, (hopefully) learnt from them and we'll see how it turns out anyway. I'll be reading through this step by step later on and it was at a good level for me as I've been trauling this forum for months and I'm into the beer nerdery things like gravities and IBUs etc

Cheers Carnie


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## Barron

Thanks carniebrew for the info and good luck on polishing it even further into a useful tool for those who use this great forum.



I have done a couple of of these and have LOVED the results. Great beer for those who don't have the resources or knowledge for AG!
And hopefully people will combine this with trial, error and other knowledge gained to eventually create their own methods anyway!

constructive criticism should be always considered, and congrats to everyone helping to make this forum and post better. But hating on here in not necessary or helpful.


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## tricache

I have just put down 2 extract brews...one was average (too sweet and I pretty much jumped into doing it without reading a lot) but my second (which I read a lot more and followed some youtube videos) has turned out alright (apart from a bit of a Acetaldehyde which is fading).

I think there is bugger all help out there for extract brewing, it seems to be left a bit in the crack between beginners K&K (knowing very little) and AG Brewers (knowing too much?)

I like what you have done, it needed to be done!!! Maybe even put a basic example of a recipe, that way people have a good starting point. That was my first mistake and jumping in thinking it was like K&K and ending up with a beer which is pretty sweet.


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## carniebrew

Yeah, I like that idea tricache...what I might do is attach a document to the post that shows how to make the full extract version of Dr Smurto's Golden Ale. I have been waiting for the recipedb to come back online so I could link to it first though.

I agree there's little info for full extract brews around here...it's a hell of a lot more popular in the States from the looks, so if you don't mind converting pounds, ounces and gallons you can get a heap of info from sites based over there.


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## JBrew

Hi all,

A question regarding the partial boil method..

About to attempt Extract Brew #1 and will be boiling up around 4L and topping up to 23. Will topping up with tap water compromise the wort and if so whats the alternative?

Cheers,

j


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## carniebrew

It hasn't ever done so for me...and the zillions of kit brewers out there that often use nothing but tap water on a regular basis.


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## Nick JD

Kit and Kilo brewers get away with pitching only 6g of sick, badly stored yeast entirely due to the 20L of oxygenated tap water they add to the gloop.

Extract brewing also benefits from this. I have never got why (Americans especially) people do "full volume" extract brewing.


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## bum

As compared to a 4L boil? Really?

I'm not saying a 4L boil is no good (made many decent beers that way myself) and nor am I saying full volume boil with extract is entirely necessary to but to suggest that one does not present a benefit over the other is a little misleading.


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## Nick JD

bum said:


> As compared to a 4L boil? Really?
> 
> I'm not saying a 4L boil is no good (made many decent beers that way myself) and nor am I saying full volume boil with extract is entirely necessary to but to suggest that one does not present a benefit over the other is a little misleading.


Please list the benefits.

Turn over a new leaf, bum - attempt constructive critisism - or, really step out of your comfort zone and actually offer some of your enormous wealth of brewing knowledge in a way that not only tells others they have it wrong, but actually shows them how to do it right. Like the way you do it.


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## bum

I boil full volume. It is good.

Does that help?

(Unless they've been culled/editted out) the limitations of a small boil have already been discussed in this thread.


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## Nick JD

You make extract beers?

Have the limitations of a full volume boil be discussed? Like need to oxygenate the wort?


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## bum

I have done. You told me to talk about what I do.

There's no pleasing some people!


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## glaab

I did a similar extract brewing thingo about 18 months back but never got around to posting it.
Attached if anyone wants to ave a look, i'll finish it one day and post, Cheers 

View attachment extract.docx


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## Scottye

carniebrew said:


> It hasn't ever done so for me...and the zillions of kit brewers out there that often use nothing but tap water on a regular basis.


Hey J

I can't see there being any issue with this, I did it with all my kits and bits brews and now with my extract brews. I started out in kits and bits with 2l boils, short boils, increased to 4l and the last two which were really good used a 6l boil.


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## bum

Nick JD said:


> Like need to oxygenate the wort?


Yeast only has specific oxygen requirements if the full volume of liquor has been boiled?

This sort of talk you like to engage in is entirely misleading and I feel endlessly (and frequently) sorry for the new brewers who value your opinion.


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## glaab

still making friends bum?

won't tap water have more oxygen than boiled wort?

doesn't boiling drive the oxygen out?


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## Nick JD

glaab said:


> still making friends bum?
> 
> won't tap water have more oxygen than boiled wort?
> 
> doesn't boiling drive the oxygen out?


Bum spends too much time thinking of witty put-downs to actually understand what the thread topic is currently discussing.

You're correct - and this was my point. Adding large amounts of tap water to small boil extract beers is quite probably better for yeast health (one of the top beer-quality factors) than doing a full boil, cooling and not oxygenating (which is what so very many people do).

A "quick splash" into the fermenter is by no means adding as much oxygen as tap water contains.


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## bum

glaab said:


> still making friends bum?
> 
> won't tap water have more oxygen than boiled wort?
> 
> doesn't boiling drive the oxygen out?


Yes it does in both cases.

Do you have any reason to suggest that tap water inherently has enough ppm of O2 to satisfy your yeasts optimum requirements? Because that is what you are supporting - "directly use tap water and you no longer need to consider oxygenating your wort".

[EDIT: added quote]


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## glaab

I can't find that quote anywhwere, someone must've deleted it.
Anyway, like I said in my extract .doc, I do a 5L boil to make 50L extract and
just hold the hose up a metre or so above the fermentator and thrash the bejesus outa it with
an aerating paddle and I see krausen in a few hours.


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## slash22000

Nick JD said:


> Adding large amounts of tap water to small boil extract beers is quite probably better for yeast health (one of the top beer-quality factors) than doing a full boil, cooling and not oxygenating (which is what so very many people do).


Right, but that's not really a full volume boil problem, it's a brewer problem.

The only disadvantage to a full boil I can think of is the need to cool a larger volume of wort, which if you "no chill" is basically irrelevant. I suppose "getting the equipment" is a disadvantage, but not if you intend to move to all-grain eventually anyway.

I don't think the requirement to oxygenate the wort is really a "disadvantage". It's something people should be doing whether they're boiling or not and it's a good habit to get into. I think anybody with the knowledge/equipment to be doing a full volume boil knows enough to oxygenate the wort afterwards. Again, it's something you have to deal with later down the track anyway, so might as well get started now.

The advantages of a full volume boil are well documented. A quick Google search brings up basically unlimited results. Sterilises the wort, improves the water, improves hop utilisation, reduces caramelisation for better flavour, colour and attenuation ... You can argue the finer details but I don't think you can argue that the results of a full volume boils are _worse_ than partial boils. The process may be slightly more complicated, but the result tends to be superior. So sayeth the mighty Google.


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## manticle

Bit OT but the term 'partial boil' while seemingly in accepted use, suggests a kind of whimpering simmer and could easily be confused with the idea of a partial mash (which suffers admittedly from a similar kind of association).

I know this has been alluded to previously.


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## slash22000

Yeah I was thinking that but not really sure how else to put it.

Partial boil ... boiling part of the water ... mini-boil? ... micro-boil? ... Honestly, I'm not sure what else to call it.


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## bum

"Small boil" was the previous accepted term. Only marginally less vague. Perhaps there was a more descriptive term before my day.


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## carniebrew

I prefer the terms "partial volume boil" or "full volume boil", i think adding the word volume removes the ambiguity. Mind you I'd still be surprised if anyone gets confused between partial mash and partial boil. I can understand confusion around thinking partial boil or full boil is referring to the heat, or the _vigor _of the boil. First time I'd heard the term "rolling boil" was when I started brewing.


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## goomboogo

carniebrew said:


> I prefer the terms "partial volume boil" or "full volume boil", i think adding the word volume removes the ambiguity. Mind you I'd still be surprised if anyone gets confused between partial mash and partial boil. I can understand confusion around thinking partial boil or full boil is referring to the heat, or the _vigor _of the boil. First time I'd heard the term "rolling boil" was when I started brewing.


Get ready for the surprises to come. The term Partial Mash or Partial is commonly misused on this board. So the term Partial Boil may present a problem for some new brewers as well. Partial volume boil, as you've used in the above post is more descriptive. When I started brewing, a boil was described in terms of it's volume and vigour. A boil was simply a boil whether it was 4 litres or 400 litres.

It may be less confusing for new brewers to have less terminology and just talk about volumes at the various stages of the process.


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## pcmfisher

I do a lot of these small boils. _The main_ advantage for me is the gear you can get away with, ie small pot and butane burner that takes those little aerosol type tins, and the ability to cool down quickly in the sink.
I know there are theoretical limits as to bitterness you can get out of a small boil, but having said that, I have made IPAs using this method that I would bet my left knacker they are bitterer (is that a word?) than the 30 or what ever IBU that is supposed to be the max.
IMHO if you are going to do a full boil you might as well mash grain!


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## Nick JD

pcmfisher said:


> IMHO if you are going to do a full boil you might as well mash grain!


I'm glad someone else said it!

But yeah - might as well bring up a pot full of water to strike temp, line your pot with some swiss voile and dump in some grain. Put a blanket on it and walk away for an hour. Not much more difficult than opening two cans of goop.


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## JBrew

Cheers for the help re the tap water.

One more question - the dextrose is best added with the Malt extract at the beginning of the boil if doing a partial volume boil or at the end when adding to the fermenter?


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## Nick JD

Your boil should have a specific gravity of around 1.040 no matter how big or small it is. 1.040 is optimum for getting your money's worth out of your hops (although if you are using software to formulate your recipe, make the boil's gravity the same as your recipe's gravity). Basically, the thickness of your boil affects the hops.


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## Bribie G

In the factory, malt extract starts off exactly the same as AG wort, minus the hops. It's boiled - as we do with AG - then gets boiled again (under vacuum of course) to condense it. In the case of LDME it's sprayed through super heated air to form a powder.

Apart from mimicking an AG boil for hop utilisation, why would one want to go to the expense and time to boil the stuff for yet a third time?


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## Kudzu

Bribie G said:


> In the factory, malt extract starts off exactly the same as AG wort, minus the hops. It's boiled - as we do with AG - then gets boiled again (under vacuum of course) to condense it. In the case of LDME it's sprayed through super heated air to form a powder.
> 
> Apart from mimicking an AG boil for hop utilisation, why would one want to go to the expense and time to boil the stuff for yet a third time?


I'm doing full volume extract boils at the moment. Mainly as training for moving to BIAB while I get all my gear together. But yeah seems like a lot of effort to go to as an end in itself.


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## Liam_snorkel

The only 'gear' that you need now is a metre of swiss voile.


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## Bribie G

Probably a metre and a half off the roll.


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## Liam_snorkel

pardon me


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## Nick JD

Training for BIAB? You could shave a monkey and tech it how to BIAB and no one would notice he was a monkey until the third batch, because of the poop in some of the bottles.


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## bum

I must have missed that picture, Nick. At what time do you add it? Or is it added to secondary?


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## Black Devil Dog

Nick JD said:


> Training for BIAB? You could shave a monkey and tech it how to BIAB and no one would notice he was a monkey until the third batch, because of the poop in some of the bottles.


*B*og *I*n *A* *B*ottle.


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## tricache

bum said:


> I must have missed that picture, Nick. At what time do you add it? Or is it added to secondary?


Secondary....better aroma


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## Kudzu

Now see, if I had've jumped straight into BIAB I wouldn't have known about the poo and everything would have gone tits up.

By training I meant gaining experience, by getting gear together I meant getting a grain mill (done) as buying grain for one batch in Tassie really isn't cost effective and I'd rather be storing un-cracked grain. Though with the prices the LHBS charges for extract, buying online for single batches doesn't seem that outrageous.


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## Mansunz

Thanks very much. A very well written article.


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## Jocky

Newbie first-time poster here (be gentle), giving this thread a bit of a bump.

Extract brewing strikes me as the 'in-between' method, with pre-bittered kit goo to the left and AG to the right. It seems particularly attractive for time/space challenged people like myself.

My question is: if LME from a can is used (as opposed to DME), wouldn't you end up with the same 'kit twang' as K&K brewers get, because that's the one thing I want avoid (apart from infections)?


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## Marina Breeze

Nick JD said:


> Imagine you've never seen either a bag of LDME, or a hop pellet before.
> 
> You've been warming a can of goop from Coles in some hot water, pouring it and a kg of sugar in your fermenter - and adding cold water and yeast.
> 
> Imagine you don't even know that hops are funny cone flowers. An IBU. WTF is an IBU?
> 
> Ignore all the fluff.
> 
> A guy who has only ever made K&K walks in your door while you are just about to start a batch. Write what you would _show _that guy.
> 
> That's the key here: _show_, don't tell. Nine out of ten people are visual learners, and ten out of ten people who need this will shit bricks when the LDME they've never used before turns to malteezers in their hot water.
> 
> When that guy you're showing says, "Huh?" in your head, simplify rather than expand. Tell him it doesn't matter - add this much hops for this long of boiling: he can discover IBUs in his own time. And he will. Knowledge is addictive.


I agree with what you're saying here but theres always google. If you type what is IBU you'll have the answer in seconds. Sometimes peop,e retain knowledge better when they have to seek answers too right. Other than that you're right about keeping it simple for sure.


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