# Stepped Mashing Schedules By Style



## Malted

I am primarily interested in Stepped Mashing because I have a Braumeister and can easily do 5 temperature steps/rests on top of a set mash-in temperature. 

Some of this discussion could be applicable to RIMS or HERMS or homemade variants of temperature controlled wort production. Even BIAB with a direct heat source under, or in the mash could be in the same category. At a pinch it could be relevant to infusion mashing but that is a different process in which the liquor to grist ratio is changed, that's not where I want this discussion to go. There are a lot of threads about temperature mashing and what mash schedules are suitable for a particular brew. _I have tried to draw together some of those threads and stuff I found on the net._ Yes I have had a look at Braukaiser.

This is not a topic about decoction mashing or infusion mashing because they are a different process. If you use those processes some of the info here may help you decide on a temperature schedule but I am not interested in this thread, as to how you achieve those temps. 

*Infusion mashing* - generally mash is heated by adding hot water in stages. It is only about changing the temperature of the mash. 
*Decoction mashing* - a portion of the cereal/grain mash is removed and heated before being returned to the mash. This can modify flavours and colours as well as a change in temperature of the mash. 
*Braumeister*, RIMS, HERMS, Braumeiser's _et al_ - the wort is constanly recirculated through the mash and an electronically controlled heat source raises the temperature of the wort. 


I am posting what I have found for the purposes of discussion. It is a summary and I invite comment. I am not going to try to discuss all enzymes and the processes of interest or the whole science of mashing (and I only know a fraction of it). I am going to try and keep this simple (so am not mentioning attenuation or efficiency); it may require you to do some reading or research of your own. If you know something I have said to be wrong, please post so that we may all learn. It is a topic that continues to be confusing. I have simplified it a bit, perhaps too much, because I want to know more about mash schedule temps and times, with just enough to get by on the theory of why. The bulk of what I have found is in the first table.


The science of mashing is quite complex and my basic reading has led me to many contradictory statements, facts and figures. Different authors quote different temperatures as being optimal for particular enzymes active in the mash. These authors even use different names for the same processes, for example:
 Amylase Rest vs Maltose Rest vs Beta Amylase rest (3 names for the same temperature rest)
 Amylase Rest vs Saccharification vs Starch Conversion vs Glyco-protein Rest vs Alpha Amylase Rest. (5 names for the same temperature rest).

In some instances, there are different processes that the authors are concerned about that occur at the same temperature and thus differing names are used. Sometimes it just seems as though there is no standard naming convention. 



It would seem that the biggest influences on the enzymes at work in the mash are pH, temperature and duration of the temperature.
Other factors include 

 water chemistry
 the type of malt
 milling of the grains
 water to grist ratio
 diastatic power or enzymatic power the hotter a grain is kilned the less it has
 dark malts increase mash pH
 many other factors too. 

A reasonable read on the above factors can be found at: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Effects_of_mash_parameters_on_fermentability_and_efficiency_in_single_infu
sion_mashing

I want to specifically look at Temperature and Time (with only hinting at pH) as these are the factors I want to use in Step Mashing in the Braumeister. I have tabulated some of the information that I have collected. 


 
The table should be read horizontally.
The values in the light blue section on the right side of the table are minutes. It shows how many minutes, for a particular beer style, that the mash could be kept at a particular temperature (listed in the vertical column of Optimal Temperature). You can also see that I have stalked *Zwickle* a bit...


In regards to temperatures and times, the biggest thing is what do you want to achieve with each step of the mash? Hopefully most of this information is in the first table above.

*Acid rest*
"The acid rest is not used nowadays because it can take several hours for this enzyme to lower the mash pH to the desired 5.0 - 5.5 range" John Palmer, How to Brew.

pH is quite a complex subject in how it interacts in the brewing process (it is also an area I am unfamiliar with). An example of the pH interaction: "Lowering the mash pH from 5.8 to 5.4 increased wort fermentability due to increased limit dextrinase activity. Wort fermentability was more strongly correlated to the free limit dextrinase activity of malt than to the alpha- and beta-amylase activities." http://www.scientificsocieties.org/JIB/papers/1999/1999_105_4_205.pdf 

Why then does only one of the mash schedules in the first table above have a limit dextrinase rest? Should I be more concerned about mash and wort pH than I am? Is it ok to look at temperature and times in isolation to pH?

I like the 'idea' of starting with an acid rest because it is quicker for your mash liquor to reach these temperatures for mash in. If you are doing a wheat beer or a beer with >25% rye, oats or undermodified malts, it may be advantageous for you. With these beers and others, if it is done for too long it may have undesirable consequences.

*Protein Rest*
Seems like a lot of folks refer to "Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time)" and such quotes about modern well modified grains. These folks say you don't need a protein rest and won't even entertain the idea. It seems like most of these quoting folks haven't tried a protein rest. Some of those that have actually used protein rests swear by them. As some say, a short protein rest is not necessary but may be useful none the less.

*Gimme Sugarz!*
You can create a wort higher in fermentable sugars, one that is higher in unfermenatble sugars, or try to produce one that balances the two (66oC seems to hit that mark). Both fermentable and non-fermentable sugars are going to be formed at the optimal temperature for the other, it is just one will be favoured. But it is not just about converting starch to sugars; which sugars do you want? Are the temperature steps to favour enzymes that will convert sugars to particular sugars you are interested in for a particulalr reason? 

*Mash out*
Raising of temperatures at the end of the mash to stop enzymes working and makes the grain bed and wort more fluid and can prevent a stuck sparge (but if a Braumeister/recirculating system is not stuck before then, it probably won't stick). Any starches rinsed out during the following sparge will not be converted to useful sugars as the enzymes have stopped working, these starches may cause haze in the finished beer. It doesn't seem likely that a good mash would contain residual starches. A mash out would seem to be important for a mash that contain wheat, oats, rye and undermodified malts.

*Temperature and time*
Given that the enzymes of interest work over a temperature range (debateable 'optimal' temps listed in my first table) some folks don't change their actual temps, just the duration at those temps. Essentially each step or temp rest will do something desirable, you just want to change the particular ratios of resulting products from enzymatic activity in the mash by varying the times at those temps. For instance, I made the table below by stalking *Manticle* (cheers mate!  ) as he is one of the few to regularly list his mash schedules. Note that he pretty much uses the same temperatures but just varies times of each step for differing brews:




*actually 1oC lower
**was 69oC
***was 75oC


You can see that the Saison would favour the production of a greater amount of fermentable sugars than the EIPA.

The *Beersmith* program says:
Light body = 64.4oC for 75 mins
Medium Body = 66.7oC for 60 mins
Full body = 68.9oC for 40 mins


The literature also supports that the higher temperature enzymes work quicker, so a short rest at higher temps could have more of an affect than you might think. I am thinking about the influence of differing times at differing temperatures.

I am not wanting to start an anti-step mashing debate. With a Braumeister it is no big deal to step mash, if it is _not _going to have a negative affect and _might_ be beneficial, then I am going to do it, _just for the heck of it, because I can._


If you use single infusion mashing with a mashout, or decoction mashing, these questions are not for you :icon_offtopic: 

 :excl: If you use temperature steps: 

 what temperature steps do you use?
 for how long?
 why?
 for what style of beer?


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## black_labb

Near the top you say that dark malts increase PH, when they actually decrease ph (which means it is increasing acidity)

Otherwise great job


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## Nick JD

I often do the "twos" in my step mashing as it's easy to remember.

42, 52, 62, 72C

I use this for German Wheats and some Lagers. It's largely based on Hochkurz steps.

It does make for a slightly better (malt balanced) beer that's "thin" but "thick if that makes sense ... and I'd do it every time if I could program a machine to check the temp and stir constantly! 

All my steps are roughly 10-15 minutes except for the "maltose" one in the early 60s which is usually 45-60 minutes.

I think the most important one is the early 70s step - the acid and protein rests are great for wheats though.

This one was stepped:


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## chunckious

Is this relative to Ales


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## stux

I do BIAB. I use an Italian spiral with a 50L or 98L pot, so I can do "steps" as very quick ramps.


I always do a mashout at circa 78C.

My hotwater comes out at 55C, so any strike temp less than that is actually a PITA 

Anyway

I've tried a few different approaches, and am still working out what I like.

When doing a wheat I like Zwickle's wheat mash profile. I've found the lower temperature rests to really help with the gelatinization of the wheat.

For the a basic single sacharification rest + mashout, 66C will give me about 1.010 FG on a 1.050 standard beer. 63C will be too dry.

I'm going to start aiming around 64/65C, as I'm getting sick of the chewy beers 

68C is far too chewy


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## dent

My standard HERMS mashing regime is 55/63/68/77 degrees for 15/30/30/20 minutes - this is my standard for a relatively malty Czech pils for instance. I think there must be another difference between step mashing and decoction in as much the mash will spend a fair bit of time at all the temperatures between these. Sometime I will get around to moving the 68 degree rest to 72 which by all reports should be more appropriate, but 68 it has been for years and serving me very well - but probably mostly because of the time taken to ramp up to the 77 degree mash out serves the alpha amylase well enough. 

If I am mashing a big ( >1075 or so ) beer I will extend out the 63 degree rest for an hour or more, as it does seem to work pretty slowly. This works well to increase attenuation on those 8-10% beers. The last imperial stout I brewed I mashed low for two hours to make damn sure it wasn't going to underattenuate - it actually fermented out spot on in the end.

In all I agree that simply varying the time at each step is an excellent way to match your mash with your desired beer.


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## kieran

I wish John Palmer were here to tell my why these malt enzymes are active at such high temperatures. I work with enzymes all the time, and a very simple evolutionary principle is that organisms have enzymes that are active at the temperatures of the environment they live in (or which they maintain). I don't know of too many grains that are routinely exposed to 65C+ for embryonic germination.


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## cdbrown

Lately I've been doing 52/63-66/72/78 for 10/80-60/10/10 with the sacc rest adjusted based on what I want. I think it's helped with the brewhouse efficiency as my last brew was about 78% compared to the normal 70% for single step with mash out.


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## MarkBastard

Good thread.



kieran said:


> I wish John Palmer were here to tell my why these malt enzymes are active at such high temperatures. I work with enzymes all the time, and a very simple evolutionary principle is that organisms have enzymes that are active at the temperatures of the environment they live in (or which they maintain). I don't know of too many grains that are routinely exposed to 65C+ for embryonic germination.



Always wondered this myself.

Would love to read an overview of this sort of thing including the malting process.


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## wobbly

This is very interesting and a subject that I sought information on under the heading of "Tips and Tricks" some time ago

What I would be most interested in also is to understand how to treat the "ramp times"? Should it be part of the "last rest" or the "next rest" or "spilt between rests" 

My 20lt Braumeister (with some insulation) averages close to 1C to 1.2C per min temperature rise this time of the year. 

How does this imact on the mash eg. If I dough in at 42C and then ramp to a protein rest at say 53C and rest for say 15 mins then ramp to say 65C to rest for say 60 mins. 

What effect will the short time at each degree C between either 42C and 53C or 53C and 65C have on the final wort 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## dent

My system doesn't count the time as the 'rest' unless the temperature lies within 1.5 degrees of the set temperature for that step. I expect that is pretty standard.


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## kieran

No cycling instruments worth their salt count ramp times as a part of any incubation time period. Enzymatic activity only really happens within the enzyme's optimal working temp.. so thats the way the instrument should handle it, preferably.


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## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> Always wondered this myself.



I think that the amylases are still active at room temperature - just that they are optimally active in the 60s (just below the point they denature). Which is kind of important unless you have a sterile mash - making it as quick as possible so you don't end up with a sour mash.

I reckon the bugs would beat you to the sugaz if you mashed at 25C. Probably take as long as a seed takes to germinate.


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## lickapop

Nice work Malted...
Thanks


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## manticle

wobbly said:


> This is very interesting and a subject that I sought information on under the heading of "Tips and Tricks" some time ago
> 
> What I would be most interested in also is to understand how to treat the "ramp times"? Should it be part of the "last rest" or the "next rest" or "spilt between rests"
> 
> My 20lt Braumeister (with some insulation) averages close to 1C to 1.2C per min temperature rise this time of the year.
> 
> How does this imact on the mash eg. If I dough in at 42C and then ramp to a protein rest at say 53C and rest for say 15 mins then ramp to say 65C to rest for say 60 mins.
> 
> What effect will the short time at each degree C between either 42C and 53C or 53C and 65C have on the final wort
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly



As far as I understand there are a large number of enzymes that get activated and then dentaured within grains given the right conditions. Theoretically, if there were enzymes that had optimum ranges that sat between the optimum ranges in your steps, then these enzymes might get activated for short rests. What effect would depend on those enzymes, how long the rest was (and how long they need to do whatever it is they do) whether the conditions for their optimisation are merely (or mainly) temperature or otherwise met, etc. etc. Infusing with hot water and decoctions will lessen this - I mean slowly stepping through the temp rises.

As Malted has pointed out, I step mash a lot and find a 2 stage rest for saccharification (which tops out at about 70: 72 aids the formation of glyco-proteins to aid head retention) is really useful in well attenuated, full bodied beers wit a dry finish. As Nick says: "[a] malt balanced) beer that's "thin" but "thick...".

Worth pointing out that I wouldn't see the need to do a 20 minute 55 rest anymore (see malted's table)- 5-10 minutes seems to be enough according to experience and reading. I think the 20 mins was to try and fit in the decoction with the rests but that can be done in other ways. Might go back and change that recipe.

I believe pH plays a discernible role in amylase activity as can liquor to grist ratio but temperature is probably the most important.

Essentially the way I look at it, based on advice from Zwickel, reading and trying this stuff out, is that in regards to the two stage sachh rest (sugar/dextrin rest, alpha/beta amylase rest, hochkurz, whatever), as long as the temps are in the range for the enzymes you wish to target, can be played with to suit. For example, if brewing a saison, I want really good attenuation and a really dry, refreshing finish. However I still want to balance it up without making it watery thin. A long, low rest at 62/63 followed by a short rest in the very high 60s, should attain that.* If you want a maltier beer with a bigger body that a saison then you could have equal rests or simply a short low 60s rest and a long high 60s. This works great for Belgians. I tried mashing high, mashing low, mashing high but long and could never get the body of my belgians to feel right. Step mashing the 60s with a short low followed by a longer high seems to work, for me (your mileage may vary)

I rarely do single infusion anymore because I cannot think of a beer style that doesn't benefit from the balance you can create by altering those rest times. Sometimes for hoppier pale ales, I just rely on the base malt and a rest at about 65 and some UK beers get SI rests in the higher 60s but I've started to play around a bit with those too.

*I have heard that after a certain amount of time at the low rest, there will be nothing left for the high rest enzymes to do - not sure, makes sense. The only bit of literature I can find about rest times suggests that 15-30 mins is adequate for most and too long proteolytic rest (protein rest: 47-52) can affect beer quality and head retention).

Anyway I'd like to read more literature on it if anyone has links (so far only Fix, 1999 and a couple of articles hither and thither) combined with bits of braukaiser etc and actually trying it out. A comparative study of the same beer made with modified malts, one SI and one with several steps in the mashing would be very interesting.

Please undertsand the above is based on my very incomplete reading and my experience of brewing this way - it is not dogma, irrefutable or even necessarily scientifically accurate. Anyone with more info who's happy to share will find me very eager to listen.


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## MHB

kieran said:


> I wish John Palmer were here to tell my why these malt enzymes are active at such high temperatures. I work with enzymes all the time, and a very simple evolutionary principle is that organisms have enzymes that are active at the temperatures of the environment they live in (or which they maintain). I don't know of too many grains that are routinely exposed to 65C+ for embryonic germination.



Its a dam good question.
I have always wondered why the Australian Funnel Web Spider, would evolve a toxin that almost looks designed to kill primate on a continent without any.
Evolution is a strange mother at times. Conversely the enzymes do a really good job of supplying the sprouting seed with soluble sugars, so mission accomplished the high temperature reactions are probably just a happy coincidence.
M


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## Nick JD

MHB said:


> I have always wondered why the Australian Funnel Web Spider, would evolve a toxin that almost looks designed to kill primate on a continent without any.



To kill insects. In the same way it nails us by inactivating sodium ion channels, it does potasium in insects - so it's another case of natural selection's carpet bombing.


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## MHB

I meant no primates in an evolutionary time scale, which Australia had none of.
And yes I am aware of the mechanism the toxin employs, its actually not all that good at killing its intended targets (look at the dose they deliver) compared to something like a daddy long legs which injects a fraction of the dose of a toxin much more lethal to insects.
Anyway totally OT, enzymes are fun, temperature isnt the only parameter we need to look at.
Mash concentration and pH play a big role as do minerals of which Calcium is the king, but lots of others are important and interesting especially some of the trace elements.
Mark

dont u just hate it when someone delets a post u just replied to...
M


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## MHB

Back On Topic
There are lots of Mash Profiles in the literature, I find this one interesting and have run it on my Braumeister (in two stages). It is purportedly about the most attenuateive mash profile going.

In Germany highly fermentable wort may be made by using an exceptionally `intensive' temperature-programmed mash, with rests at 50 oC/30min.; 62 oC/45min.; 65 oC/45min.; 68 oC/30 min.; 70 oC/30 min.; 72 oC/15 min. and then mashing off at 73-74 oC. This process takes 3.5 to 4 h.
Brewing Science and Practice - Dennis E. Briggs, Chris A. Boulton, Peter A. Brookes and Roger Stevens

There are something like 27 enzymes identified as being in Barley malt and useful to brewers, many of these are denatured by mashing in at traditional mash in temperatures (i.e. over 50oC).
One of these days it will be interesting to do a cold mash in, leave the brew overnight then try to hit all of them on the way up. Some like Maltase that makes Maltose into Glucose are denatured before the enzymes (b-Amylase mostly) that makes the Maltose is active enough to make more than a trace of Maltose for it to act on. There was posted here on AHB an article on building Banana in Wheat Beer that uses a decoction to circumvent this problem and supply plenty of Glucose. Naturally you would only do it rather than add some dextrose to the wort, if you were brewing under the Reinheitsgebot, or you really really wanted to.
The two standout references fro me would be above mentioned Brewing Science and Practice (Ch 4 is a cracker) and Kunze Technology Brewing and Malting.
Mark


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## manticle

MHB said:


> dont u just hate it when someone delets a post u just replied to...
> M



As interesting as I find discussions about mygalamorphs and their neurotoxins or the existence of the Australian indigenous, I didn't feel the discussion would lead anywhere good. 

Yes it is annoying when posts you reply to in depth get deleted but that's how it happens sometimes.

What was the upshot when you ran that schedule on your braumeister? (attenuation, flavour body etc?) What beer did you make and have you made the same beer single infusion or with vastly less steps?


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## manticle

manticle said:


> What was the upshot when you ran that schedule on your braumeister? (attenuation, flavour body etc?) What beer did you make and have you made the same beer single infusion or with vastly less steps?



Bump MHB. I am interested in the answer and I reckon there may be a bunch of other people that are too.


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## Malted

manticle said:


> Bump MHB. I am interested in the answer and I reckon there may be a bunch of other people that are too.




The schedule MHB listed does look interesting. Not quite the same and I am sure you would have seen this Manticle but maybe others have not: Zwickle compared a stepped mash to a single infusion and made some observations of the two resultant beers. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...hp?showentry=15


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## MHB

Had just tasted the Rouge Imperial Pilsner so was attempting something of a nod of the head in that direction, trying for a very high attenuation (got about 90% apparent) without resorting to adding sugar.
Knocked out at just over 1.100, pulled up just a touch over 1.010 for about 12% alcohol so the mash regime certainly yielded a very attenuateive wort, bittering and taste was all Tetnang to 75 IBU. Fermented with Wyeast Budvar 2000 (high pitching rate ~2.5*10^6/mL/P) finished off with Distinct a very neutral and highly attenuateive wine yeast.
Not really a beer I would (or could) drink in volume but an interesting challenge, getting pretty close to the theoretical limits of what you can do without using adjunct or kettle sugars.
If I brewed this again I would aim a little lower, say around 10 % alcohol, up the yeast pitch to around 4*10^6/mL/P and try to not use the finishing yeast, there was some hot alcohol taste; and no I wouldnt even think about trying to make this type of beer without step mashing.
M


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## manticle

Interesting. 75 IBu pils with all tett sounds pretty nuts. 

What was the body and mouthfeel like (obviously a dry finish and the hot alc might interfere with perception but did it seem like there was some contribution from dextrins to pull away from thin, dry and winey)?


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## Nick JD

MHB said:


> Not really a beer I would (or could) drink in volume...



Not really a beer I could drink at all... 75 IBU, 12% Lager finished to 1.010 with a wine yeast? 

Dude, that's just wrong.


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## MHB

Well if it helps you get your head around it, think of it as a Lager barley wine, just couldnt find a Lager yeast that I thought would go all the way, Distinct is basically flavourless, cleaner than Champagne, I didnt want any Belgian notes so not a lot of choices really. When the lager choked at about 9.5% I brought the temperature up to 20oC and added the Distinct. The Rogue was all Sterling not having any of that and a shed load of Tetnang... well the beer was spicy, but can you have too much Tetnang?
In truth it was a bit over hoped, I had thought it would pull up closer to 1.020 than 1.010 and it was balanced accordingly, surprisingly full bodied for the FG, not exactly a thirst quencher but a long way from being cloying.
On the whole I was fairly happy with the beer, remembering that it was primarily an exercise in testing the mash regime. The slight hot alcohol flavour was probably from under pitching.
Besides whats wrong with 75 IBU in a 12% Lager wine, once you learn that pint mugs might not be the way to go.
M


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## Malted

I am not beyond opening my mind to new ideas. Or I could say, drinking that brew may blow your head off. :lol: 

Thank you Mark for sharing your information and thoughts about your Larger Lager. I too would have expected 75 IBU to balance quite nicely against a FG of 1.020 and perhaps a bitterness ratio IBU/SG of 0.75 - certainly not out of the ballpark for a lager (barley) wine. Sounds like you had an interesting trial that you have learnt from.

So your final attenuation was 90%?
Can you actually pin the high attenuation on the mash schedule, or the wine yeast? Do you know how far Distinct could go in a wort from a differing mash schedule? Or likewise, how far have you had Budvar go in other worts with different mash schedules- 9.5% alc/vol does sound like it maxed it's potential ability before you added the Distinct?

I did an American Barley wine in which I went for a 97.5 IBU, OG 1.081 and FG 1.014 for an _intended_ IBU/SG of 1.204, with San Diego Super Yeast (potential max attenuation of 83% - actual was pretty close and maybe at approx 82.75% - it finished 2 points below the Beersmith prediction). The mash schedule was 55oC - 5 mins, 62 - 15, 68 - 45, 72 - 10, 78 - 10. I did this a while ago, I am not sure about this mash schedule now. I don't think it would have been a highly fermentable mash schedule, if anything more of a balanced beta/alpha. It was the first time I have used the super yeast, I am looking forward to trying it on some other brews.


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## MHB

Have been working on a couple of parallel brews based on the original Josef Groll 1842 Pilsner.
Being a Braumeister brewer I am trying to get as close to the original as possible and have had a play with the mash regime, one brew will be the full decoction, the other a Programmed Infusion conducted on the Braumeister.
The aim of the exercise being to use exactly the same Grist, Hopping and Fermentation profiles and compare the brews.
Given that there is a significant difference between the Decocted and Programmed brews; looking at the Decoction profile, the obvious step would be to do a hybrid brew, put the malt in the Braumeister recirculate for 30 minutes, pause, take out 1/3 of the grist and water, heat to a boil for 10 minutes, return to Braumeister and start the programme.
Having had a bit of two and fro with Manticle on this question recently; made me go and work through that is happening in the decoction. I think that if you are going to do a hybrid, doing the decoction from mash in would have a lot more effect on the flavour of the finished beer than doing one at the end. Key being not to heat too quickly and if at all possible to do the pauses at 65 and 72 as in the original.
The following is from the Almanac and we intend to follow it exactly.
View attachment 52299
View attachment 52298

The excel spreadsheet is just my working.
View attachment Triple_Decoction.xlsx

Cheers Mark


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## manticle

MHB said:


> I think that if you are going to do a hybrid, doing the decoction from mash in would have a lot more effect on the flavour of the finished beer than doing one at the end. Key being not to heat too quickly and if at all possible to do the pauses at 65 and 72 as in the original.



Absolutely agreed.

Doing a double decoction today with a Belgian Bastard (my grand cru thingamajig) that includes 6 steps from b-glacanse to mash out.

First decoction will be pulled after the main mash has rested at 62 for 10 minutes and will slowly be brought up to the boil and added back for glyco-protein. Second will most likely be pulled at high sacch rest or glyco protein and added back for mash out.

Thanks for sharing that recipe/method. Aiming for a triple decocted floor malted 100% pils this coming winter so I will be referring to that document.


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## Nick JD

manticle said:


> Thanks for sharing that recipe/method. Aiming for a triple decocted floor malted 100% pils this coming winter so I will be referring to that document.



Just MHO, but I reckon the non-floor malted Wey Boh Pils makes a much nicer Boh Pils. I bought my last sack of the FM stuff.


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## manticle

I might try both.

Last FM I used I got a (not unpleasant) sweet corn character that I believe, from reading Fix, to be related to certain melanoiden characters rather than DMS.

Would be good to do a side by side.


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## Nick JD

manticle said:


> I might try both.
> 
> Last FM I used I got a (not unpleasant) sweet corn character that I believe, from reading Fix, to be related to certain melanoiden characters rather than DMS.
> 
> Would be good to do a side by side.



A side by side would be a great idea. 

I've been getting rid of my FM Boh Pils in Saisons and IPAs (where it can't really be noticed) and in Pilsners using it at less than half the base - german pils the rest. It's a bit too funky for me.

The non-FM stuff is wonderful. Gives that "urquell" graininess/earthiness that goes so well with saaz.

Maybe I just got a sack from the back corner of the floor where the rats live? I wonder how consistent the FM process is compared to the modern malting process?

EDIT: what's "Fix"? Interesting to hear the "baby corn husks" things is melanoidin-based.


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## manticle

Principles of brewing science, George Fix. A longer boil will actually develop the character. Described as sweet corn by him and different the vegetal canned corn of DMS.


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## Nick JD

manticle said:


> Principles of brewing science, George Fix. A longer boil will actually develop the character. Described as sweet corn by him and different the vegetal canned corn of DMS.



My high-gravity (1.065-1.075) boils are probably accentuating it too.


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## hsb

Finally got the HERMS running smoothly again and doing a Step Mash inspired by this thread for a Landlord-esque ESB
Possibly overkill with the 50/58 rests but WTH, thought I might as well, a fairly simple grain bill might benefit.
Sitting indoors clicking buttons on the BCS while the good ship HMAS HERMS does her thing in the backyard. 
Click mashing.

10 min 50C rest
10 min 58C rest
10 min 63C rest
40 min 67C rest
10 min 72C rest 
ramp to mashout 77C


5kg Pale (Pearle) 88.5%
0.5kg Crystal Medium 8.8%
0.1kg Flaked Wheat 1.8%
0.05kg Black Malt 0.9% (in at Mashout ramp - just for colour)

Fuggles 60g - 60 min
Goldings 40g - 20 min
Styrian 45g - flameout


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## fraser_john

For those brewers with Promash I have created four mash programs for using Mash Designer.

These are the ones I have programmed into my Auberins step/ramp controller, it has 30 program steps and will fit four programs handily!

JPG Graphs for each one shown as well.

NOTE : Remove the .txt suffix from the file, it was the only way I could upload it by adding the .txt 

View attachment PID___Dry_Ale.msh.txt


View attachment PID___Dry_PILS.msh.txt


View attachment PID___PILS.msh.txt


View attachment PID___Weizen.msh.txt


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## kymba

Hey FJ reckon you could throw up your auber settings for one of these schedules?

I'm hoping to switch one into my controller this weekend and i'm still a little hazy on the 'correct' settings


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## fraser_john

No problems 

View attachment PID_PROGRAM_New_July_2012.pdf


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## kymba

cheers FJ!


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## Cocko

fraser_john said:


> No problems



FJ,

Can I ask you why all your ramp times have become 1 ? I have been basing my programming on your own SS from a while ago that users actual ramp times....

Is it because you have your HY settings sorted, and that it won't start the next step temp is reached until you reach temp any way?

Many thanks!


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## fraser_john

Cocko said:


> FJ,
> 
> Can I ask you why all your ramp times have become 1 ? I have been basing my programming on your own SS from a while ago that users actual ramp times....
> 
> Is it because you have your HY settings sorted, and that it won't start the next step temp is reached until you reach temp any way?
> 
> Many thanks!



Yep, having the Hy-1 Hy-2 set to 1 or something close, it makes the PID wait till the temp is within +/- 1 (in my case) before starting the timer. Means you don't have to calculate your average ramp rate then how much time to program into that step to get from temp a to temp b. Hope that makes sense.


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## Cocko

fraser_john said:


> .... Hope that makes sense.



Perfect, thank you!

Great controller.

Cheers


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## Dave70

Id like to give step mashing a shot with a sasion I'm making this weekend with the aim to getting it nice and dry. Probably apply it my Belgians also if it works out favorably.
I'm only really set up for single infusion at the moment, but is it still doable with additions of progressively warmer water into the mash so long as I'm hitting my temps? 
Lets say I'm starting with 5kg of grain and allowing 3L of water per kilo (about the same as my normal single infusion). How much should I allow for the initial dough in? 

I'm really only doing this at the most basic level to get a feel for the procedure, so if someone could recommend a temp / time schedule for the style, that would be super-duper.


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## Dave70

Dave70 said:


> Id like to give step mashing a shot with a sasion I'm making this weekend with the aim to getting it nice and dry. Probably apply it my Belgians also if it works out favorably.
> I'm only really set up for single infusion at the moment, but is it still doable with additions of progressively warmer water into the mash so long as I'm hitting my temps?
> Lets say I'm starting with 5kg of grain and allowing 3L of water per kilo (about the same as my normal single infusion). How much should I allow for the initial dough in?
> 
> I'm really only doing this at the most basic level to get a feel for the procedure, so if someone could recommend a temp / time schedule for the style, that would be super-duper.



So Dave, what base malts and yeast are you using?


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## Dave70

Dave70 said:


> So Dave, what base malts and yeast are you using?



Mainly pils and 3724.


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## Dave70

Dave70 said:


> Mainly pils and 3724.



Well in my opinion Dave, when using such a highly attenuative yeast, there's no need for a complicated mash schedule.
But if you still want to forge ahead, I'd do it as follows.

Mash in with about 2/3 of your water at around 62 for 30, then raise it to 68 for thirty by adding hot water from the kettle. Sparge at 82, mash out at 76. Easy eh?
It took me all of five minutes to find this on the BYO site, so next time don't be so ******* lazy and do your own homework. 
..useless prick...


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## Dave70

Dave70 said:


> Well in my opinion Dave, when using such a highly attenuative yeast, there's no need for a complicated mash schedule.
> But if you still want to forge ahead, I'd do it as follows.
> 
> Mash in with about 2/3 of your water at around 62 for 30, then raise it to 68 for thirty by adding hot water from the kettle. Sparge at 82, mash out at 76. Easy eh?
> It took me all of five minutes to find this on the BYO site, so next time don't be so ******* lazy and do your own homework.
> ..useless prick...



Thanks man, you're awesome.


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## Jace89

**** that Dave bloke is super helpfull...what a champ!


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## hsb

@Dave4900 - There's a Saison schedule on Page 1 of the thread - maybe longer at 62/3 if you want to really dry that sucker out, not so long at 68 or you'll get too much body? I use a HEX to step so no practical advice on additions.


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## WarmBeer

Dave70 said:


> Thanks man, you're awesome.


Hey Dave, don't listen to that Dave guy. He's got no clue what he's talking about.

Also, I think he's been sleeping with your missus.


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## tallie

WarmBeer said:


> Hey Dave, don't listen to that Dave guy. He's got no clue what he's talking about.
> 
> Also, I think he's been sleeping with your missus.



:lol:


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## manticle

hsb said:


> @Dave4900 - There's a Saison schedule on Page 1 of the thread - maybe longer at 62/3 if you want to really dry that sucker out, not so long at 68 or you'll get too much body? I use a HEX to step so no practical advice on additions.





30 minutes at 62 will be plenty using the right yeast and no trouble with 68 for 30.

3711 for example at 62 for 15 and 67 for 45 would easily get me 1008.

I used the strike temp calculator on the grain/grape website when I did hot water infusion to step mash but I can only find the article with no calculator now.


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## Dave70

WarmBeer said:


> Hey Dave, don't listen to that Dave guy. He's got no clue what he's talking about.
> 
> Also, I think he's been sleeping with your missus.




Worse still, he's been drinking all my beer..


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## Dave70

hsb said:


> @Dave4900 - There's a Saison schedule on Page 1 of the thread - maybe longer at 62/3 if you want to really dry that sucker out, not so long at 68 or you'll get too much body? I use a HEX to step so no practical advice on additions.



Yeah I saw that one, but five stages of temp ramping with a jug and a thermometer is just asking for a headache. The general word from other brewers seems to be that two or three is plenty for this style and grain bill at least.

Probably go with the 3711 as its that little more attenuative and I can recycle it for a lighter Belgian ale next time round.


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## WarmBeer

Dave70 said:


> The general word from other brewers seems to be that two or three is plenty for this style and grain bill at least.


Did Dave tell you that, perchance? Dave...


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## manticle




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## WarmBeer

manticle said:


>



I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.


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## RobW




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## mje1980

Dave70 said:


> Yeah I saw that one, but five stages of temp ramping with a jug and a thermometer is just asking for a headache. The general word from other brewers seems to be that two or three is plenty for this style and grain bill at least.
> 
> Probably go with the 3711 as its that little more attenuative and I can recycle it for a lighter Belgian ale next time round.



I step mash with boiling water in a 47ltr esky, and find 3 steps do able but pushing it for a single batcg. 2 steps can be done on a double, but is tricky, the esky is maxed out volume wise haha. Also, a jug wont cut it, use a 12or so litre stockpot on the stove. Im just about to keg the 1st batch of a double of helles, which was step mashed. I would be lying if I said,i hadn't been drinking the samples!!. Koelsh is another good step mash candidate IMHO


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## Hadrian

Can anyone explain how they know how long to mash at each step? Beersmith gives the same result if I mash at 63 for 10 minutes or an hour.


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## manticle

Reading and trial and error.

I find 10-15 minutes at a low mash temp more than adequate to get the attenuation I would expect from a single infusion at 65/66, then the remainder is for dextrinous/body/mouthfeel. A full bodied beer that's had a 40 minute mash at 68 preceded by 10 mins at 62 can still attenuate well and finish dry in my experience. Yeast choice influences things too.


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## Cocko

Ok,

Looking for some help from the knowledgeable step mashers here...

I have programmed may PID as attached.

Any advice is appreciated.


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## Malted

Cocko said:


> Looking for some help from the knowledgeable step mashers here...



if t = time of zero.
No 78oC mashout huh?


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## Cocko

Malted said:


> if t = time of zero.
> No 78oC mashout huh?




It does mean time but by having it programmed to 0, stops the program running and holds it at 78* for however long....


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## TSMill

I set an additional t=0 step at protein rest temps at the start. Turn on first thing in the morning and it gets up to starting temp over breakfast & sits there good to go.


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## juzz1981

I have just started step mashes as i've gone from single infusion to a 20Lt Braumeister, One question I have is why for example would you do two individual rests at 63c for 30min (beta) and 72 for 30min when you could just program a single rest at halfway say 66c? Wouldn't this get the same type of enzyme activity?

No doubt im wrong here but would like to know why..


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## Malted

juzz1981 said:


> I have just started step mashes as i've gone from single infusion to a 20Lt Braumeister, One question I have is why for example would you do two individual rests at 63c for 30min (beta) and 72 for 30min when you could just program a single rest at halfway say 66c? Wouldn't this get the same type of enzyme activity?
> 
> No doubt im wrong here but would like to know why..



Short answer: 
it is just refining the process.

Slightly longer answer:
I wouldn't say that you are wrong, you can make good beer with a 66oC rest. 
To use an analogy: You can make good curry with pre-made curry powder, or you can make your own curry powder with the same ingredients but tweak the relative proportions of the mix to suit your pallet. 
Whilst different enzymes are active across a broad spectrum of temperatures, there are ranges of temps that are optimal for them. Some of these are listed in the first table on the first page of this thread. 

Generally speaking, those enzymes that have optimal temps in the higher temps, can do it quicker than those with lower optimal temps. Thus some folks might go 45 at 63oC and 15 at 72oC because you wouldn't want too many dextrins/alpha-amalyase activity. 
This is the beauty of a Braumeister: mash in temp plus up to 5 mash steps to play around with.


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## Flying Panda

Malted said:


> Short answer:
> it is just refining the process.
> 
> Slightly longer answer:
> I wouldn't say that you are wrong, you can make good beer with a 66oC rest.
> To use an analogy: You can make good curry with pre-made curry powder, or you can make your own curry powder with the same ingredients but tweak the relative proportions of the mix to suit your pallet.
> Whilst different enzymes are active across a broad spectrum of temperatures, there are ranges of temps that are optimal for them. Some of these are listed in the first table on the first page of this thread.
> 
> Generally speaking, those enzymes that have optimal temps in the higher temps, can do it quicker than those with lower optimal temps. Thus some folks might go 45 at 63oC and 15 at 72oC because you wouldn't want too many dextrins/alpha-amalyase activity.
> This is the beauty of a Braumeister: mash in temp plus up to 5 mash steps to play around with.




What happen if there too many dextrine/alpha-amalyase activity in the wort?


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## mje1980

Dunno, but I brewed a porter yesterday with 20 mins at 63, then 50 mins at 73, so I'll find out in a few weeks. If you do a low temp rest first it shouldn't be a problem. I read on the braukiser site that "some brewers report good results with an extended rest at this temperature". Not an exact quote, and I think it relates mostly to head retention. Im sure someone here would have done a beer with a long rest in the low 70's.


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## Cervantes

Referring back to this section of the original post..........

"*Mash out*
Raising of temperatures at the end of the mash to stop enzymes working and makes the grain bed and wort more fluid and can prevent a stuck sparge (but if aBraumeister/recirculating system is not stuck before then, it probably won't stick). *Any starches rinsed out during the following sparge will not be converted to useful sugars as the enzymes have stopped working, these starches may cause haze in the finished beer*. It doesn't seem likely that a good mash would contain residual starches. A mash out would seem to be important for a mash that contain wheat, oats, rye and undermodified malts."

And in particular to the bit in bold.

Does anyone have any experience of this? It would seem to make sense.

I use a BM and have been mashing out at 78 and then sparging at 78. The sparge in theory is just a rinse as all enzymes should have been denatured.

Would I be better of finishing my mash and sparging at say 72 where I still have a chance to convert any starches?


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## Mr. No-Tip

Starch conversion test on a proper 76 mash out would be a good way to find out. I've never done this because anecdotally I think I am always converted. I tend to do a 90 min mash most of the time - I'm rarely in a rash.

When I made a 100% corn chicha, the sparge definitely and visibly loosened starch, so it's definitely a risk if you are unconverted.


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## manticle

Are you getting starch haze or any other indication that conversion is incomplete?


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## Cervantes

manticle said:


> Are you getting starch haze or any other indication that conversion is incomplete?


No I'm not having problems. Although I have experienced some chill haze.

This was more of a theoretical/hypothetical question. I still have a lot to learn about mash temperatures and their effects, so was just interested.


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## Bribie G

I guess it could be a problem with some adjunct mashes where the unmalted grist has not been properly gelatinised to make the starch fully available to the enzymes. I'm thinking back to some experiments of mine in the past adding uncooked Polenta to the mash to see if it would gelatinise at mash temperature, the use of some brewing flours in UK style ales and addition of rolled oats that may still have had starches lurking.


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## manticle

Cervantes said:


> No I'm not having problems. Although I have experienced some chill haze.
> 
> This was more of a theoretical/hypothetical question. I still have a lot to learn about mash temperatures and their effects, so was just interested.


Cool. I would think that if you reach the end of a mash and have significant starch left over, that it's indicative of other issues (possibly malt quality) and skipping mash out for a cool sparge would be a band-aid solution at best.

The reason I mash out is because I don't want any residual beta amylase to break down the dextrins from my alpha rest.
If I was doing single infusion, I probably wouldn't bother - just sparge a tad hotter and get the boil going quickly.


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## Cervantes

"*Mash out*
Raising of temperatures at the end of the mash to stop enzymes working and makes the grain bed and wort more fluid and can prevent a stuck sparge (but if aBraumeister/recirculating system is not stuck before then, it probably won't stick). Any starches rinsed out during the following sparge will not be converted to useful sugars as the enzymes have stopped working, these starches may cause haze in the finished beer.* It doesn't seem likely that a good mash would contain residual starches*. A mash out would seem to be important for a mash that contain wheat, oats, rye and undermodified malts."

Thanks Gents,

Re-reading this it seems that I had missed the sentence underlined above, which would have answered my question.

So I can continue to mash out at 78 without being concerned that I'll induce any hazes.


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## fraser_john

Revisiting my PID program for the dry ale. I've just sampled a Golden Ale style beer with 8% crystal malts in it and it came out with an FG of 1008! Think with the new configuration of my setup, some adjustments on the first step are needed LOL, so gone from 63 to 64. Be trying it on an IPA this w/e.


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## Cervantes

I'm just bumping this thread as I stumbled across it again today and found it a very good read, so have bumped it for anyone else interested.


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## Camo6

I reckon I read this thread a few times when setting up my pids. In fact I pretty much copied Cocko's auber PID schedule to the letter. Pretty sure that's in this thread somewhere.


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## kaiserben

With that mash step table, what's the difference between Weyerman Wheat and Weizen mash schedules? 

I'm interested in making a Roggenweizen (eg Stortebeker Roggenweizen) but first I'm attempting a Roggenbier (51% rye), which AFAIK has similarities to a dunkelweizen (but with rye subbed in for the wheat).

(will be brewing on a Grainfather) 

I pretty much want to end up with plenty of banana esters, so I assume I want to avoid the phenol enhancing steps and follow the weizen mash schedule rather than Weyerman Wheat schedule?


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## butisitart

oh. my first grainfather ='d my first step mash.

note :-

when you leave highly modified grain on 42 for 30mins, then 48 @ 15 mins, then [email protected] 10 mins,

then that could be why the fermenter resembled a washing machine with 23kg of laundry detergent in it. i had to come in from work to rescue the wife from drowning in a sea of amber bubbles.

i now assume because the graph on this page says that those temps increase fermentation rates (big time, in my experience). no more low temp steps on mod grains for me, or maybe a little just to scientifically verify my assumptions.

am now doing 2nd grainfather (woo hoo!!!!) paying careful attention to this chart.

cheeeeeers


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## Liam_snorkel

haha. what yeast/temperature were you fermenting with/at? Could have had a lot to do with it


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## butisitart

temp was a pleasant 21 at pitch, then 18-19 for the first 12hrs, and all else was also at as close to perfect as you can get. never before had to donate beer to the surf lifesavers for rescuing the wife from a certain drowning though. so at this point, that's the only thing i can put it down to.

oh - ale yeast 16-25 degree pitch.


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