# Move From Biab To Mash Tun - Need Advice On Build



## neo__04 (17/8/11)

Hey all,

Have done a few BIAB brews in the past and am now looking at moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag. 

I am by no means any expert, but would like some recommendations on mash tun design from those who have done it in the past.

Going to buy an esky of some variety. Any recommendation on shape & size, just for single batches, Rectangular, square, round? Also what type of extraction method inside? Stainless braided hose, copper manifold, ss false bottom?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance


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## Pennywise (17/8/11)

My 25L willow esky is ok for standard (5% ABV) batch's, just. It gets pretty damn full with a mash out. I tend to batch sparge unless doing an ordinay bitter or something lower in alc. If I was to buy an esky for single batch's again I'd look for about 30L I think, the willow esky's seem to hold temp pretty well as I check mine after the mash and it's usualy the same temp or half a degree lower than when it went in. Also I have no issues with using just a copper manifold (mine's pretty dodgy) and getting around 75% eff from the mash, but I wish I had a falsie because I'm sure that would increase eff over a manifold.

Not sure you'd have less mess to clean up switching from biab to MT though, bag vs MT, grain needs to be taken out of both...


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## neo__04 (17/8/11)

Thanks for the reply,

Sounds like good advice, I'll keep an eye out for somethin in the 30l range. I just figuire with an esky i can drain it, then empty the contents straight into the bin. With Esky mash tuns, do people normally put a thermometer in it permanently? or just stick one in the top when required?

Thanks again


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## Pennywise (17/8/11)

Fitting a decent one to the tun would be preferable, as 1-2 degrees makes a difference. I don't, I use a stick thermometer which I'm happy with but with the tun I'm building ATM for doubles I'll be fitting a Mash Master one.


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## Bribie G (17/8/11)

What mess of a bag? I just hoisted and drained mine, swung it over and dropped into a big pail to take it round to the Stepdaughter's chooks and I'll hose it out while I'm over there. Do mash tuns clean themselves?


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## Nick JD (17/8/11)

When you get your first stuck sparge, or just get tired of waiting for an hour for it to drain ... you can use the esky for keeping beer and food cold, so it won't be a total loss


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## real_beer (17/8/11)

Neo__04 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Have done a few BIAB brews in the past and am now looking at moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag.
> 
> ...


Hard to find better advice than here:

http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD.html

Great stuff.


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## Silo Ted (17/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> When you get your first stuck sparge, or just get tired of waiting for an hour for it to drain ... you can use the esky for keeping beer and food cold, so it won't be a total loss



haha, and regret forever that he'll be labelled a BIAB traitor. 

Mate, any esky will do. Whatever you can find that's cheap. Although you should really consider one to handle double batches for if the situation arises in future (or you want to do a big beer). Twice as much capacity is unlikely to cost you 8twice as much $$$, so think big !


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## neo__04 (17/8/11)

Hmm..

And after reading up on stuck sparges and 20 min drain times... Im rethinking my idea of bothering with a mash tun.

Is there really a benefit in doing a 2v or 3v setup over BIAB for your average brewer?

What am i going to gain by adding a mash tun to my brewing process?


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## Pennywise (17/8/11)

The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day


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## Bribie G (17/8/11)

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record (in the days that there were records and they cracked)  
When AG home brewing took off over the last few decades the early "pioneers" such as Dave Line, the US equivalents, then later Australians - the reasoning obviously went:

OK we want to make commercial quality or better beers at home from grains. How do the commercials do it? Well they have been doing a tried and tested procedure for the last few centuries and if it ain't broke why bother fixing it, so let's make a scaled down version of this and we can't go wrong:





And indeed you can't go wrong. I was at Murrays Brewery two weeks ago and that's exactly what they are doing there, although all on the same floor level aided by electric pumps. They have to do it that way, it's the only way they can handle hundreds if not thousands of barrels of beer, tonnes of grain etc. At Murrays they were doughing in about 25 sacks of Maris Otter when I got there - that's like an entire Bulk buy going into the Mash Tun in 20 minutes  

However at home we're only interested in 23 L, or maybe 50 L and we can take a different angle - instead of removing the wort from the grain and sending it to the kettle, why not remove the grain from the wort and it's sitting right there in the kettle. I know that's very simplistic but that's at the heart of BIAB. 

<cracked record> if you want to pop out to KMart you don't climb into a little scaled down version of a Kenworth B Double, you fire up the barina or hop on your scooter.  

having said all that, if you already have a HERMS or a 3V set up and are happy with the results, as said above if it ain't broke why fix it. Although a couple have come across to the baggy side simply for the space / convenience aspect.

Edit: Actually at Murrays, if I got it right as the bling was quite overwhelming, they mash in a vessel, transfer to another vessel for "lautering" then transfer the wort back to the original vessel for boiling - so it's different to the traditional "3 vessel" system in that there's no separate mash tun or boiler but also a lauter tun. Maybe we could redesignate Brew in a Bag as Lauter in a bag, although LIAB doesn't have quite the same ring :lol:


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## argon (17/8/11)

I retired the bag not too long ago, moving to 3V. I did it cause I was attempting to do double batches in a 50L pot and was a real pain juggling volumes, top ups, dunk sparges etc. It was very messy trying to squeeze to much out of too small a pot. OG and efficiency was also a problem, as is fairly widely accepted for biab, as the OG went up the efficiency went down. When I was doing single batches it was fine, but I don't get too many opportunities to brew these days,so when I do I go for volume. I now brew with a 50hlt, 50mt, 80kt and it's a lot less hassle to brews double batch at any OG as my efficiency does not differ based on OG. 

Standard biab is no messier than 3V. Once you introduce excessive squeezing, dunk sparging etc, it can become quite messy. But you still have to handle the grain when cleaning out the mash tun anyway... So 3V can be messy too.

IMO if your current biab procedure is simple, without the extra faffing about... Stay as you are, your beers will still be excellent. If it's just because you want to, then fine go for it... No need to explain yourself. When I really think about my own reasoning, that was really my motivation... Sometimes adding more gear/complexity is some of the attraction of the hobby.


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## Silo Ted (17/8/11)

Pennywise said:


> The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day



Out of interest, Pennywise, what is your efficiency % on your system ? Repeated 79% on BIAB is nothing to be frowned upon.


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## felten (17/8/11)

Pennywise said:


> The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day


Not quite true, the efficiency shouldn't be that different to a 3v batch sparge. Since my first BIAB brew I've been averaging 80% efficiency for knockout volume, though efficiency into the fermenter is less than a 3v system because of increased kettle trub losses.

Speaking in general terms, with a no-sparge BIAB when your grist increases, you will lose more sugar to the grain absorption; but BIAB mashes lose less to grain absorption than a mashtun mash, so in practice it equals out somewhat.


Some of the benefits of having a mashtun that I can think of are; having a set grain bed so you can vorlauf to clear the runnings and decrease your kettle trub losses, being able to fly sparge if you desire, and not having your mash volume limited by your kettle size.


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## stux (17/8/11)

Pennywise said:


> The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day



90+% not good enough for a mash efficiency? 

Bog standard BIAB with a Mashout will often get you 80-85%

Apply a bit more effort during the mash/mashout/squeeze and you can get that to 90-95%

The loss of efficiency comes at the end of the boil where you have a lot more trub than a mash filterbed system

With a BIAB mash you can do direct heating. Which makes 5 step ramped mashes trivial. This is very hard with an esky 

You're going to have to clean your kettle anyway... so *only* have to clean the bag as an extra

Mash Tuns afaict make sense if you want to do greater than say 100L batches or if you want to be able to pipeline batches so you can have one batch in the mashtun while you're boiling the other.



If your issue is cleaning the bag, I'd suggest you're not doing it right


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## Pennywise (17/8/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Out of interest, Pennywise, what is your efficiency % on your system ? Repeated 79% on BIAB is nothing to be frowned upon.



Is 79% mash eff the norm with biab? I agree it's deffinatly nothing to be frowned apon. My mash eff since going full volume boils, hence sparging more than I previously did is 75-80%, last batch was 77%. I'll have to add though that my manifold is pretty half arsed done & sits right along the edge of the MT, so I assume I lose a bit there due to channeling, but it's consistant so I don't feel the need to change just yet, not till I get my bigger MT sorted


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## stux (17/8/11)

argon said:


> I retired the bag not too long ago, moving to 3V. I did it cause I was attempting to do double batches in a 50L pot and was a real pain juggling volumes, top ups, dunk sparges etc. It was very messy trying to squeeze to much out of too small a pot. OG and efficiency was also a problem, as is fairly widely accepted for biab, as the OG went up the efficiency went down. When I was doing single batches it was fine, but I don't get too many opportunities to brew these days,so when I do I go for volume. I now brew with a 50hlt, 50mt, 80kt and it's a lot less hassle to brews double batch at any OG as my efficiency does not differ based on OG.
> 
> Standard biab is no messier than 3V. Once you introduce excessive squeezing, dunk sparging etc, it can become quite messy. But you still have to handle the grain when cleaning out the mash tun anyway... So 3V can be messy too.
> 
> IMO if your current biab procedure is simple, without the extra faffing about... Stay as you are, your beers will still be excellent. If it's just because you want to, then fine go for it... No need to explain yourself. When I really think about my own reasoning, that was really my motivation... Sometimes adding more gear/complexity is some of the attraction of the hobby.



Ever considered trying a double batch BIAB in your 80L kettle?

I bet its a nice size for a double batch. But you're right, efficiency does go down as the gravity of the first runnings go up, but I think that applies to normal 3V as well


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## AndrewQLD (17/8/11)

Looks like the first four replies are all you will get on topic Neo, as usual these threads always seem to turn into a for and against argument.

As far as your question goes a good shape for an esky to use as a mash tun is the cylindrical drink eskies, they are the easiest to fit out with round false bottoms readily available from a few of the online brew shops and you can even get bulkhead fittings like this one here to make life even easier.
I use a braided hose in the bottom of my 50 lt stainless steel mash tun and it works really well and is also pretty easy to fit and cheaper than the premade false bottoms.
Good luck with your new system if you do go ahead with it.

Andrew


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## felten (17/8/11)

AndrewQLD said:


> Looks like the first four replies are all you will get on topic Neo, as usual these threads always seem to turn into a for and against argument.


Neo asked what the differences were, he got what he asked for  



Nee_04 said:


> Is there really a benefit in doing a 2v or 3v setup over BIAB for your average brewer?
> 
> What am i going to gain by adding a mash tun to my brewing process?


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## drsmurto (17/8/11)

Neo__04 said:


> Hmm..
> 
> And after reading up on stuck sparges and 20 min drain times... Im rethinking my idea of bothering with a mash tun.
> 
> ...



Stuck sparge? No reason why a mashtun and good false bottom is any different to BIAB.

BIAB is the cheap way of AG brewing or at least provides a cheaper entry into brewing (I've seen some high tech BIAB rigs that are far more complex than my basic 3V system).

For that reason i have and will continue to recommend the Beerbelly fasle bottom. I regualry brew with rye at levels up to 40% without even using rice hulls and have no issues. The reason is the false bottom, it's a well designed and well built piece of kit and has seen me through 4 years of AG brewing without skipping a beat.

No more effort involved in cleaning the tun - take it down to the chook run, dump, squirt with a hose and leave to drain.

Mash tun is a 55L willow esky, $20 off ebay and gets used as an esky when not being used as a mash tun.
HLT is an old electric preserving urn, temp dial still in degree fahrenheit.
Kettle is a 50L DAB keg bought from a fellow AHBer.

Nothing against BIAB, just thought i would help the OP out by answering his question instead of derailing him.


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## AndrewQLD (17/8/11)

felten said:


> Neo asked what the differences were, he got what he asked for



Not in his original post or his next one, only when the thread went from being about a mash tun design to what's best BIAB or 3v.
And now I'm doing it


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## felten (17/8/11)

Ask 5 brewers a question and you'll get 6 different answers!


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## Silo Ted (17/8/11)

Pennywise said:


> Is 79% mash eff the norm with biab? I agree it's deffinatly nothing to be frowned apon. My mash eff since going full volume boils, hence sparging more than I previously did is 75-80%, last batch was 77%. I'll have to add though that my manifold is pretty half arsed done & sits right along the edge of the MT, so I assume I lose a bit there due to channeling, but it's consistant so I don't feel the need to change just yet, not till I get my bigger MT sorted



Can only speak of my own efficiency since moving to BIAB (3V isn't an appealing method for me anymore) and just looking at my notes from the last eight brews, its been between 78% & 80% without fail. I'm not really of the mind that a better efficiency is required (same as you say), as long as it's consistent. That's without squeezing, but does include a 'mash out' temp raise, which seems to emulsify the remaining liquid. When I squeezed but didn't raise the temp I was getting similar. Next time I will do both and see if I can jack it higher, also maybe do a sparge. But its not a priority, more out of general interest than anything else.


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## Acasta (17/8/11)

Well I used to BIAB, now I 3v. But thats only due to personal preference. I find it EASIER on a 3V.
Started off with NickJD's method, which was amazing to be able to make AG beer. I got the 19L BigW pot and coffee grinder and away I went, made a few brews, tasted nothing like the kit stuff I was desperately trying to move on from. However, in the end which this method I felt limited and wanted to expand my equipment. 
I ended up looking for a bigger pot, and ended up being given a 50L SS pot, which was fantastic. Full volume BIAB, using the 19L pot to sparge in. Fantastic. Still made good beer! However the sparging was really becoming a pain in a small vessel, as well as the large amount of trub left over and other things. I wanted a more efficient system.
That's when I bought a 50L pot to use as my kettle. Upgraded the freebie pot to a mash tun with a SS false bottom that I scored for $30 off ebay. I find this system to work really well for me. I still use the 19L BigW pot as a stove top HLT and on my next batch im going to use my voile bag as a massive hop sock. One day when i get a bigger electric HLT, this pot will still be used in my brewery. This system produces similar if not the same standard of beer as my 19L pot and bag did.

Two reasons really for the upgrades. One, for the more efficient brew day (not mash efficiency) and two, for the fun, creativity and enjoyment of researching putting together ect of the whole thing.

As for your OP question... I use a pot for my mash tun so I can't help you there. However, you can always go big without spending too much by watching sales section and ebay. I've never used braid or copper, but I know SS false bottom works great for me.

As for cleaning a mash tun... Its not ever hard. Just scoop/dump the bulk of the grain and rinse with water, while you boil. I found hand washing the bag to be a real pain tbh.


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## manticle (17/8/11)

Hi neo:

This is how I started (my tun set-up is the same but in a bigger esky nowadays)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35595 

I no longer boil on a weber in two teeny pots either.

I followed yardy's instructional on how to make a copper manifold - found here: http://www.homebrewdownunder.com/index.php...amp;topic=948.0

There are many ways - copper manifold, steel braid, round tun, rectangular tun etc.

No need to worry about which system makes better beer. If you're happy with your BIAB beers, keep making BIAB beers. If you're not, there's something else you need to change, rather than the bag. However, if, like many of us you like tinkering and making things and have the space then have fun and do it. Won't make better beer by default, won't necessarily be easier to clean etc, etc. Two systems to the same end.


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## Deebo (17/8/11)

Regarding cleaning the bag. 
I just hang it on the line and spray with a hose then leave to dry? 
Would think spraying the mash tun out wouldn't be a whole lot easier?

Saying that I have only done 5 BIAB and do have a spare esky I have thought about trying to fit a manifold or screen to just to give it a shot but haven't got motivated enough to figure out a tap fitting or source bits for manifold.


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## manticle (17/8/11)

BIAB vs 3V vs HERMS vs Braumeister vs Janine's big underpants = boring argument, done to death, with no meaning at the end of it.

Concentrate on advice answering the first question (designing a tun) and let the OP make up their own mind on how to proceed.

Not solely directed at you deebo but I agree with Andrew QLD. Let system wars be fought, for fun and with tongue in cheek at Grain and Grape and Babbs demos and ANHC.


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## Deebo (17/8/11)

Having never tried 3v I wasn't trying to say either was better just wondering on his initial posts statement about "_moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag._" 

I am also interested in mash tun design as stated as have been thinking about giving it a shot but I wouldn't think it would be any easier to clean (though probably not any harder either).


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## manticle (17/8/11)

As I said - not directed at you. Just the inevitable turn that this thread seems to be taking and that any thread that even mentions BIAB and 3V together seems to always take (or chill/no chill, gay vs straight, bruce Lee vs muhammad ali, scorpion vs tarantula, Godzilla vs King Kong, Catwoman vs Wonderwoman etc etc etc etc etc etc).

Catwoman wins by the way.


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## bignath (17/8/11)

manticle said:


> Catwoman wins by the way.




I feel a poll coming on.....


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## Bribie G (17/8/11)

When I was looking at All Grain in 2008 I was scouring Bunnings for the most suitably esky myself and only went into BIAB when it occurred to me that an urn could maybe be used for BIAB (I was going to get one anyway as a HLT). In fact in those days (only 3 years ago   ) there was even a lot of discussion the subject of "is an urn possible" as urns were just "emerging" as a BIAB tool. If it wasn't for that nagging little question about the urn I'd probably be 3-V ing myself. As a BIAB'er I'd never say it's far superior - or inferior - to any other system - to me it's Fords n Holdens, Petrol n Diesel, Blondes n Redheads.....

However like Deeb my ears pricked up at the "bag mess" statement in the OP, and that sort of thing pushes buttons along the lines of the posts you often get like "I'm going to try BIAB then later go onto AG".  That's why I did a tongue in cheek sort of comment in response.

Edit: Manticle thinking along same lines


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## manticle (17/8/11)

Big Nath said:


> I feel a poll coming on.....




I don't need a poll. I just want to watch.


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## Greg Lawrence (17/8/11)

Neo__04 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Have done a few BIAB brews in the past and am now looking at moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag.
> 
> ...



Hi Neo

You asked the question of shape and size.
I would reccomend trying to get an esky that is big enough for single and double batches, but try to get that volume using height ratheter than length and width.
I have 1st hand experience in this from a recent club brewday where 2 of us had the same brand eskys and same false bottoms (beerbelly) and the grain was cracked by the same mill. Both eskys were roughly the same volume and had the same amount of grain.
The taller esky got far better efficency that the long flat esky. I put this down to the geometry of the esky. I believe that in the long flat esky there were alot of sugars left behind as there was not as much flow through the grain bed.
Something worth considering.

That said, I would go for around 60-70L, but tall.

Greg


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## Deebo (17/8/11)

Gregor said:


> That said, I would go for around 60-70L, but tall.
> 
> Greg



Just out of curiosity.. are there disadvantages to taking it to the extreme?
For example say a 3m tall insulated pvc pipe? (other being pretty annoying to fill and recirculate etc)


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## zebba (17/8/11)

Is it going off topic to turn this into false bottom vs manifold 

re: mash tun size, op needs to state what gravities they are aiming at. I use a 40lt techni ice and I push it to the limit when I brew 1.100+


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## manticle (17/8/11)

Size wise: I started with 26 L which can push out a single batch of 1060-1070 beer with mash out and be pretty much full. I still use that tun sometimes but also use a 50 L tun to push single batch and 1.5 x batch. Could probably double batch on it if I had a bigger boiler - around 35 L post boil is close to my maximum avoiding boilover.

Too big and you may lose heat from headspace/deadspace. There may also be issues with fly sparging but I don't fly sparge so I'm not sure - just something that is worth checking if that's what you intend to do.

Too small/just big enough - you may need to upgrade and therefore spend money and effort twice rather than once.


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## kelbygreen (17/8/11)

lol 3m high pvc. I guess the hight does count as you say it has to go threw more grain to get to the bottom from the top and also it should have less dead space so that is also helping. I know losses arnt counted in efficiency but a loss is a loss and means more grain is needed to fill the loss. 

I like a mush tun better then BIAB. Yes brew day is longer but I dont mind. But I guess if I done full volume BIAB then it would of been better but doing maxi was a pain and was taking me as long to do then a brew with mashtun. plus I had 95% the gear to make a mashtun so didnt take much to get it all together.


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## Greg Lawrence (17/8/11)

Deebo said:


> Just out of curiosity.. are there disadvantages to taking it to the extreme?
> For example say a 3m tall insulated pvc pipe? (other being pretty annoying to fill and recirculate etc)



I would think that gravity may go against you if you go too tall. It may put too much pressure on the grain bed causing a compacted grain bed which would cause a slow runnoff and possibly poor extraction.
That said, Im no physics expert.


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## booargy (17/8/11)

I have used a few ideas of this site to make mine. I used a 50L keg. cut the bottom out (tony) the cutout can then be used for a false bottom (yardy) I have cut the spear Bracket off the fitting and welded a stainless bolt on to hold the false bottom down. A 3/4 compression fitting is welded to the original keg fitting which goes to a tap. this works well. 
I am in the process of changing the outlet with a machined fitting welded to the keg fitting(the first was welded in crooked so tun wouldn't sit straight with hard plumbing). 
I got all the pieces from cutting the keg up except bolt and fittings. No photos which would make it easy to understand.


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## felten (17/8/11)

manticle said:


> BIAB vs 3V vs HERMS vs Braumeister vs Janine's big underpants = boring argument, done to death, with no meaning at the end of it.
> 
> Concentrate on advice answering the first question (designing a tun) and let the OP make up their own mind on how to proceed.
> 
> Not solely directed at you deebo but I agree with Andrew QLD. Let system wars be fought, for fun and with tongue in cheek at Grain and Grape and Babbs demos and ANHC.


I don't see anywhere above where someone said either system made better or worse beer, just people correcting the fallacy that BIAB has an inherent efficiency limitation.

Each system has it's pro's and con's, and if the OP wants to know what they are, then I don't see how answering that is a problem.


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## Nick JD (17/8/11)

This is how I do it.

I'm the guy in the background about to raise the bag at mashout using the well-hoist. 







When I finish BIABing I go out with my mates to find a witch to burn.

But 16th century brewing aside ... using a fabric lauter filter is not a silly idea.


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## yardy (17/8/11)

Neo__04 said:


> *Hey all,
> 
> Have done a few BIAB brews in the past and am now looking at moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag.
> 
> ...



G'day Neo,

no expert here either mate but I've built a couple of esky tuns with copper manifolds and a SS keg shaped tun with a false bottom, if it were me building my first tun, knowing what I know now, I would go with the cylindrical cooler/esky with one of the advertised BB false bottoms to suit.

42 litre tun

manifold

by the way mate, don't go spruiking about having performed BIAB, it doesn't look good on a resume  

Yard


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## pk.sax (17/8/11)

I gotta say, if you (OP) are thinking if/why you should change systems.... It's like this:

Some 3v ppl switch to a braumeister. It's more expensive, but it is pretty much a full time beer maker. You can do it everyday from what I've seen and not tire of it.

Would you want to handle wet bags everyday? Doubt it. Do you brew everyday? Doubt that too. For most people BIAB works out, actually it doesn't even progress beyond the stovetop. I got a keggle and rigged it up a bit for outdoors BIAB because I hate the mess the kitchen ends up in doing it inside. There is the inevitable splash and plenty of boil spray, not to mention the dropped wort etc when transferring to sparge pot etc, in the end that needs cleaning up OR being really careful. I can only afford to brew on weekends now, and I doubt I want a compulsory clean up of the kitchen every time + it gets tied up so I can't cook  I wish I had a garage, but I don't. I got a balcony though. I'll prolly churn out a few on the keggle outside and see it is less messy than doing it indoors.

If it continues to create unintended work for me I'm gonna grab an esky and some braid or maybe even another keg + insulation + braid, I saw the guys at westgate do a brew with a braid mashtun made out of a keg and can't honestly say it was hard to clean, it was tipped out and hosed. I certainly don't carry out my grain bag to the yard/downstairs dripping all over the floor, I get something to put it in and consequently have to clean that in turn of the sticky drying sugars - that's the sparge pot for you. Or a plastic bucket for the 'purer'. I really don't see a cleaning advantage in BIAB. It does have a smaller storage footprint though. Horses for courses.

If I made a mashtun, an SS braid would be my first try, second would be to try to make a maltpipe of sorts if required. I am a little interested in recirculating for clarity into the kettle as I'm sort of lazy to calculate too much with volume adjustments - means looking for a system that creates a grain bed. Shit, I don't wanna touch a math problem after work if I can manage not to. Good luck.


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## manticle (17/8/11)

felten said:


> I don't see anywhere above where someone said either system made better or worse beer, just people correcting the fallacy that BIAB has an inherent efficiency limitation.
> 
> Each system has it's pro's and con's, and if the OP wants to know what they are, then I don't see how answering that is a problem.



It's not.

My reaction is a general reaction to how many threads/discussions end up and is the reaction of a tired, grumpy not very old but slightly balding guy who wants to see people focus on making good beer and embracing the idea that there is more than one method to do so.

I'm trying to detract from the uselesss discussion that often ensues, not add to it. Can we get back to Catwoman and wonderwoman in the jelly bath please?

Did I not mention the jelly bath before?


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## Newbee(r) (17/8/11)

argon said:


> I retired the bag not too long ago, moving to 3V. I did it cause I was attempting to do double batches in a 50L pot and was a real pain juggling volumes, top ups, dunk sparges etc. It was very messy trying to squeeze to much out of too small a pot. OG and efficiency was also a problem, as is fairly widely accepted for biab, as the OG went up the efficiency went down. When I was doing single batches it was fine, but I don't get too many opportunities to brew these days,so when I do I go for volume. I now brew with a 50hlt, 50mt, 80kt and it's a lot less hassle to brews double batch at any OG as my efficiency does not differ based on OG.
> 
> Standard biab is no messier than 3V. Once you introduce excessive squeezing, dunk sparging etc, it can become quite messy. But you still have to handle the grain when cleaning out the mash tun anyway... So 3V can be messy too.
> 
> IMO if your current biab procedure is simple, without the extra faffing about... Stay as you are, your beers will still be excellent. If it's just because you want to, then fine go for it... No need to explain yourself. When I really think about my own reasoning, that was really my motivation... Sometimes adding more gear/complexity is some of the attraction of the hobby.



Could always buy 2 x 40L urns and do side by side (double) batches? 

The efficiency in terms of time is my biggest barrier to 3V. I love the idea of an automated system with pumps, timers etc but the reality of cleaning 3 vessels, tubing etc means biab is my preferred approach. If I was upgrading I have to say I would be looking at the braumeister.

bugger, where's the pic of catwoman and wonderwoman in jelly? What flavour of jelly?


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## manticle (17/8/11)

Newbee(r) said:


> bugger, where's the pic of catwoman and wonderwoman in jelly?



Closest I could get. I was right about catwoman.








Newbee(r) said:


> What flavour of jelly?



Blackcurrant


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## Newbee(r) (17/8/11)

manticle said:


> Closest I could get. I was right about catwoman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





... and there it is. Now, if we could just line up Michelle Pfieffer and Lynda Carter to reenact...

I was actually planning on crumpets for breakfast until the link....


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## Pennywise (17/8/11)

manticle said:


> I was right about catwoman



Some would argue that point :blink: h34r:


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## Nick JD (17/8/11)




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## DJR (17/8/11)

Back on topic

I use and have used for 3 years a handy pail as a mashtun - one of those 21L tubs you can buy from any hardware shop or find out the back of donut shops. Wrap it up in camping mat and you're set.

Advantage is, when it is up for replacement, just buy another one and re-wrap the camping mat around it, and drill a new hole for the manifold.

I have a simple brass bulkhead with copper t-piece that goes into a round piece of stainless braid hose with SS hose clamps on. Works fine and the whole mashtun would cost less than $70 or so inc bulkhead and ball valve, maybe $100 or so if you went all SS/copper.

I usually mash like this

4kg grain + 12L water
4L water @ 100C to mashout
Drain
Add 9L water @ 75C - first batch sparge
Drain
Add 9L water @ 75C - 2nd batch sparge

The only disadvantage in having a smaller tun is that i can't infusion steps that well cos you run out of space- you could do one of 4 things to fix that without increasing the volume:

- Decoctions
- HERMS/RIMS
- Start with a very thick mash (eg. 1.5L/kg)
- Make the mashtun from a heatable container, e.g. cheap 19L SS stockpot, and heat it directly


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## kocken42 (17/8/11)

42L Cooler Combo Pack available at Ray's Outdoors in the current catalogue for Fathers Day. 

42L cooler
4L personal cooler
1L Drink container

Now $49.95, saves $40

Pretty good price for a large chest cooler if you are interested in building a mash tun.


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## davo4772 (18/8/11)

I have recently hung the bag up and am now mashing and batch sparging in a 26L esky with a copper manifold.

My only real reason for changing is that I wanted to learn how to do it and to see if it makes any real difference. My only regret is that that I find the 26L esky too small.
Sure it fits a standard gravity batch fine with a 2 step batch sparge. thats all good. Gets my efficiency around 75 percent. Ideally I would prefer my efficiency to sit a 70% given most recipes are calculated at 70. A single batch sparge would prob bring the efficiency down to 70, which won't fit in a 26l esky. No biggie , just have to adjust recipe.

The only real advantage I have found with batch sparging over the bag is having less trub at the end of the boil and I tend to leave less in the pot. Was never a big deal as used to strain it through a tea towel and use for starters.


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## neo__04 (18/8/11)

Ok, Final question on eskys. 

I can get...
- 46L "Wanderer" brand cooler from BCF for $49, a tall squareish shape.
- 42L "Frosty" cooler from Rays, rectangular on wheels type, for $49 in a pack with a couple of smaller coolers.
- 60, 80, 100L Techni Ice eskys on ebay anywhere from $70-$120ish. Really good brand, 5-16 days of cooling, lifetime guarantee etc etc. All auctions, so price varies, but still really cheap. Tallish rectangular shape.

Now any of these sizes are fine for me as I will generally be doing single bactches, prob ok for double batches, If im making a manifold, shape of the esky then doesnt matter? As long as the bottoms flat?

Thanks again!


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## manticle (18/8/11)

I'd go for techni ice. If you only ever will make singles or the ocassional double then 60L should be ample.


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