# Starsan Saniclean Or Pbw



## mckenry (16/6/09)

Hi All,
There are a ton of threads on here about cleaning kegs, lines, bottles, fermenters etc etc.

What I want is a single cleaner. Will any of the above do my esky mash tun, aluminium boiler, SS kegs, plastic fermenter, beer lines and be effective AND safe to all my gear? I cant seem to find a straight answer on this one.
PBW - seems to be the front runner, but,
Saniclean seems to be the one for kegs and
Starsan seems to be the one for lines, but not metals.

So, is PBW the go for me or do I really need two or more?
I used to be an advocate of boiling water & elbow grease, but those beer lines just need something better and I'd hate to damage my kegs & / or boiler.

Thanks in advance,
mckenry


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## clean brewer (16/6/09)

mckenry,

I use PBW to clean kegs, posts etc etc and Carboys and brew gear.. I will then use Starsan to sanitise, love the foam... Dont think you need anything else to be honest...  

:icon_cheers: CB


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## daemon (16/6/09)

I use PBW for cleaning the kettle and anything that needs a deep clean, no-name nappisan for fermenters / bottles / mash tun etc and then starsan for sanitisation. Seems to work well, I also try to use the bleach / vinegar combo from time to time to cycle my sanitiser, especially if I'm going to soak the item in it.

PBW is great but not as cheap as no-name nappisan so I only use it when required.


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## mckenry (16/6/09)

clean brewer said:


> mckenry,
> 
> I use PBW to clean kegs, posts etc etc and Carboys and brew gear.. I will then use Starsan to sanitise, love the foam... Dont think you need anything else to be honest...
> 
> :icon_cheers: CB





Daemon said:


> I use PBW for cleaning the kettle and anything that needs a deep clean, no-name nappisan for fermenters / bottles / mash tun etc and then starsan for sanitisation. Seems to work well, I also try to use the bleach / vinegar combo from time to time to cycle my sanitiser, especially if I'm going to soak the item in it.
> 
> PBW is great but not as cheap as no-name nappisan so I only use it when required.



Cheers for the replies boys. Lets face it, if anyone's going to know about this - it's a 'clean brewer'


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## Thirsty Boy (16/6/09)

Different purposes in that lot.

PBW is a cleaner - and it will do teh trick for pretty much all your brewing paraphernalia - aluminium included.

Starsan and saniclean are sanitisers - you need to clean stuff first... then use one of these products on it to sanitise it. Both of them are no rinse products.

One quasi cleaning thing you might achieve with starsan or saniclean is the removal of "beerstone" which is not a soil, but a kind of biofilm that builds up over time. It is soluable in acids but not so much alkaline cleaners like pbw.

In general

PBW as an everything cleaner
Starsan or saniclean as an everything sanitiser

an occasional dose of extra strong starsan to prevent the buildup of beerstone on teh inside of fermentors, kegs etc etc

TB


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## muckey (16/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Different purposes in that lot.
> 
> PBW is a cleaner - and it will do teh trick for pretty much all your brewing paraphernalia - aluminium included.
> 
> ...



so you recommend changing your cleaning / sanitising regime from time to time then?


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## reviled (16/6/09)

mckenry said:


> Starsan seems to be the one for lines, but not metals.



:huh: so are you saying starsan isnt good for kegs etc?


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## clean brewer (16/6/09)

> and safe for most materials except soft metals.


Fine for kegs, prob not Aluminium.. (starsan)



> Will remove beer stone
> from kettles, clean copper chillers - safe on soft metals, plastic, skin or clothes.


Does remove beerstone, just need to use a scourer still...  

And yes mckenry, I try to be very clean in brewing, bit more diligent than some ive seen......

:icon_cheers: CB


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## Kleiny (16/6/09)

Use PBW for Cleaning of Brewing products e.g. stone buildup. A soak of 24 hrs will breakdown most buildups.

Starsan is a sanitiser not a cleaner. Equipment needs to be cleaned before using starsan.

This is all covered by 5 Star chemicals on one of the Jamil Show Podcasts (only lisened to it yesterday).

The only problem with PBW is Teflon it will eventually (over a week soak) degrade teflon all of metals are fine. Of course if left in your kegs or pots water will do as much damage over time.

Do not over dose on these chemicals they work best at there given dilutuions and temp ranges read the label of the product or look at the 5 Star web site.

Kleiny


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## Beerbuoy (16/6/09)

clean brewer said:


> mckenry,
> 
> I use PBW to clean kegs, posts etc etc and Carboys and brew gear.. I will then use Starsan to sanitise, love the foam... Dont think you need anything else to be honest...
> 
> :icon_cheers: CB




+1 I use pbw to clean everything from cubes to beer lines and kegs, can't beat pbw and hot water. Once clean I then sanitise with starsan where required.


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## mikem108 (17/6/09)

Listen to the shows on sanitation and cleaning on this page 
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-2
to hear it from Jon Herskovits of Five Star Chemicals himself, boy is he passionate about these subjects and he has a lot of insight


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## Fatgodzilla (17/6/09)

mikem108 said:


> Listen to the shows on sanitation and cleaning on this page
> http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-2
> to hear it from Jon Herskovits of Five Star Chemicals himself, boy is he passionate about these subjects and he has a lot of insight




Yes after last year at the ANHC he sold me to his products. Answers any problems / queries I have sent him in emails quickly too. 


I use sodium percarbonate as a "cheap" cleaner (bought in a bulk buy) but every so often hit everything with PBW as the change up. Sanitise normally with iodophor but when I soak everything in PBW I use starsan.


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## Hutch (17/6/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Yes after last year at the ANHC he sold me to his products. Answers any problems / queries I have sent him in emails quickly too.
> 
> 
> I use sodium percarbonate as a "cheap" cleaner (bought in a bulk buy) but every so often hit everything with PBW as the change up. Sanitise normally with iodophor but when I soak everything in PBW I use starsan.


Same here Fatgodzilla.

I use Sodium Percarb + boiling water as an inexpensive yet effective cleaner for cubes/kegs/fermenters, then a quick rinse with starsan to sanitise. Very quick and bullet-proof regime IMHO. 

I also use PBW once in a while - really effective on hardened yeast-crud etc.


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## Thirsty Boy (17/6/09)

Muckey said:


> so you recommend changing your cleaning / sanitising regime from time to time then?



Not so much change up as use the appropriate product for the problem - over time you might get a little build up of beerstone using exclusively alkaline cleaners like PBW or nappisan. A bit of a dose with an acid cleaner every now and again fixes it right up. Think along the lines of what CLR does to rust and limescale... acid.

As for sanitation - yes I do like to change up. I do probably 6-10 brews using starsan which is my preferred sanitiser. But every now and again, I swap out for iodophor - just to keep the bugs on their toes. Anything that is hiding in a crack and thinking about building up a resistance to my sanitising regime - gets a surprise and hopefully dies. Then back to the starsan for 6-10 brews and a flip flop to acidified bleach solution ... then back to starsan.

I don't want infections .... ever!!


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## matti (17/6/09)

Any caustic solution for cleaning and any acid based solution for sanitising and a bit of boiling water to rinse.
The chemistry:
detergent are caustic and picks up the grime etc.
Sanitizer is generally acidous and kills of the bacteria.

Matti


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## PistolPatch (18/6/09)

Haven't seen any mention here yet of costs.

A lot of this branded stuff costs heaps - way too much. For example No Rinse Sanitiser -250ml- sold in HBS (dilute 30ml to a litre) must be about a thousand times more expensive than something like Hy-San -1lt- you can get from a hydroponic shop and that can be diluted to 1ml per litre. One bottle of HySan has lasted me to date three years and I use it heaps.

Other things to consider with expensive cleaners are whether they can be re-used. Something that will clean and/or sterilise a fermenter but that can be re-used time and time again might be worth considering and I'm sure there is stuff out there.

As for me, I make sure I clean everything thoroughly and then I use either and often alternate...

a) Unscented Household Bleach - Extremely low doses in COLD water is all that is necessary - 20mls in 23lts is heaps. (More is bad.) Rinse with HOT water.
B) Napisan - This will do all your gear. A cap full in your keg or fermenter in HOT water for 12 hours is great.
c)PSR - Pink Stain Remover is a form of TSP which we always used to use at Matilda Bay in the early days. It is too expensive but does everything and does it in about twenty minutes.

A bulk buy on PSR would interest me no end!

 
PP


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## PistolPatch (18/6/09)

Just saw Mikem108's link and Fatgodzilla's comment. Thanks a heap, I am going to have a listen to that for sure. Cleaning drives me nuts!

:icon_cheers:


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## Ross (18/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Not so much change up as use the appropriate product for the problem - over time you might get a little build up of beerstone using exclusively alkaline cleaners like PBW or nappisan.




Not quite right TB - Nappisan as you say won't remove mineral deposits like beerstone, but PBW is a specalist brewing cleaner that has been designed for removing it. 

Cheers Ross


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## T.D. (18/6/09)

Ross said:


> Not quite right TB - Nappisan as you say won't remove mineral deposits like beerstone, but PBW is a specalist brewing cleaner that has been designed for removing it.
> 
> Cheers Ross



What is the chemical difference between Napisan and PBW?


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## Hutch (18/6/09)

T.D. said:


> What is the chemical difference between Napisan and PBW?


The 64 million dollar question. 
If 5* gave away these details, they wouldn't be able to charge so much for it!

Having said that...does anyone know what's in PBW?


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## Crazy (18/6/09)

Hutch said:


> The 64 million dollar question.
> If 5* gave away these details, they wouldn't be able to charge so much for it!
> 
> Having said that...does anyone know what's in PBW?




The only hazadous componant is listed as Sodium Metasilicate, but also contains phosphates and surfactants. (MSDS on Five Star web site)

Cheers Derrick


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## Thirsty Boy (18/6/09)

Ross said:


> Not quite right TB - Nappisan as you say won't remove mineral deposits like beerstone, but PBW is a specalist brewing cleaner that has been designed for removing it.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Nope - PBW is _good_ at removing beerstone, but not perfect. With any alkali only cleaning regime, you will slowly build up non biological films. Probably too slowly to matter in a home setting I admit - but I still like to run a little acid through the brewery every now and again just to make sure.

I certainly wouldn't be telling someone they were doing it all wrong if they were using pbw as their only cleaning agent though. It is very good stuff.


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## kyleg (17/5/11)

PistolPatch said:


> Haven't seen any mention here yet of costs.
> 
> A lot of this branded stuff costs heaps - way too much. For example No Rinse Sanitiser -250ml- sold in HBS (dilute 30ml to a litre) must be about a thousand times more expensive than something like Hy-San -1lt- you can get from a hydroponic shop and that can be diluted to 1ml per litre. One bottle of HySan has lasted me to date three years and I use it heaps.
> 
> ...



so nappisan to clean or sanitize? If for sanitizing what for cleaning?


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## manticle (17/5/11)

Clean. You then need to rinse it, then sanitise with something else (starsan, iodophor etc)


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## kyleg (1/6/11)

anyone know where i can buy hysan from?


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## yardy (1/6/11)

some info here and a link to making your own PBW http://www.homebrewdownunder.com/index.php?topic=1818.0

cheers


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## jyo (1/6/11)

yardy said:


> some info here and a link to making your own PBW http://www.homebrewdownunder.com/index.php?topic=1818.0
> 
> cheers



Looks like a good read on that site, Yardy. I'm still trying to figure out which avatar I prefer... :icon_cheers:


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