# How do you clean fermenters?



## hooper80 (2/1/16)

Hey guys, I've been brewing for over a year now and I've made some good beer. But in amongst that I've been haunted by phenolic (might be mis spelt) infection!! I'll make 3-4 good brews then boom, that unmistakable medicinal smell of phenols!! I clean my fermenters with pbw, rinse, a spray with starsan and let them sit till brew day. Then I'll rinse again with my left over hot mash in water. 
I thought it might be wild yeasts, but I thought I eliminated that issue by carrying my fermenters full of wort into my shed and shutting all the doors.
Anyway... It is killing me.. Help please


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/1/16)

Change your cleaning and sanitation regime

Soak them in strong bleach for a few days

Then soak in caustic soda

Rinse with hot water and let dry in the sun.

Make sure you also do everything like taps, lids, bungs, spoons jugs...everything

Use a phos acid rinse prior to use.

Always store your vessels sealed


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## Rocker1986 (2/1/16)

I just use sodium percarbonate to clean mine out. I fill it up with hot tap water then dump 2-3 scoops of sodium perc into it and let it sit there overnight. Then it gets drained and rinsed 3 times with hot water and put away until I am ready to dump the next cube of wort in (which currently is 2 days after kegging the previous batch). On that day I rinse it again with hot water and then Starsan it and have never had any issues with infections or phenols in my beers.

Not really sure what could be causing your issues... maybe it needs a good hit with chlorine bleach or something.


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## TwoCrows (2/1/16)

After I bottle from the fermenter. I remove all solids and the water I used to sterilise the bottles rinse the fermenter and then let it dry. Then put it somewhere clean ( wardrobe ) 

Starsan brakes down and bacteria will grow in the stagnant water.


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## hooper80 (2/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Change your cleaning and sanitation regime
> 
> Soak them in strong bleach for a few days
> 
> ...



I used to use bleach but then stopped trying to eliminate problems and it worked..... But only for a few brews! Do u measure the bleach concentrate? Actually, can u please tell me the concentrate for all of the above? I need to solve this problem cause is very disheartening and my misses hates hearing about it!! Hahaha


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## Danscraftbeer (2/1/16)

I am also fealing the same pain at the moment for all the beer I made for Christmas. Its an off smell and after flavour that my brain gives a kin to artificial fumes, plastic, poystyryne stuffed if I know but I think its something that happened with summer brewing but, i'm still guessing.


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## panspermian (2/1/16)

Pink stain remover. Mix strong in about 2 litres. Cover airlock with duct tape. 
Leave for a week or two and shake vigorously every now and then. 
Should get rid of any microbial lingerers.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/1/16)

In doubt to all cleaners and sanitizers and in the means that they were utilized I literally boiled up water and flood filled the plastic fermenter with added rehydrated Sodium Percarbonate. Sink the O ring in there and seal the lid shut at 90c plus and leave it for a day. Rince and dry. Ready for next time (fingers crossed)


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## Judanero (2/1/16)

With my plastic fermentors as soon as I emptied the fv I would spray the krausen ring with the jet spray from my garden hose, spray until I couldn't see any left and then give it a wipe with a starsan soaked clean chux.
I would then give it all a spray of starsan and let it sit for five mins or so in the sun and then rinse it all off with the jet spray again, and turn it upside down for storage.

When it came time to use it again I would take the tap and take it apart and sit it in a bowl of boiling water and sodium perc.

While that was doing its thing I would boil a jug of water and pour it all on the inside of the fv, all around the inside of the lip and in the threaded part where the tap screws into, then I hit it with some starsan and let it sit for five mins.

Re-assemble tap, starsan everything again and install tap... usually I then gave it another rinse with boiling water, swirl it around and tip it out- immediately covering the top with gladwrap.

If I hadn't used the fv for a while I'd fill the whole thing with boiling water and give it some sodium perc to sit for halfa, empty, rinse with boiling water from kettle (~1.7L) and star san before covering with gladwrap.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/1/16)

hooper80 said:


> I used to use bleach but then stopped trying to eliminate problems and it worked..... But only for a few brews! Do u measure the bleach concentrate? Actually, can u please tell me the concentrate for all of the above? I need to solve this problem cause is very disheartening and my misses hates hearing about it!! Hahaha


Make both very strong.

I would use a whole 500gm tub of caustic soda for 1 fermenter.. You can reuse it.

Wear gloves FFS, glasses etc... bleach and caustic soda can really **** up your day


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## Danscraftbeer (2/1/16)

Ducati stu you nutter. :lol:


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## Feldon (3/1/16)

hooper80 said:


> Hey guys, I've been brewing for over a year now and I've made some good beer. But in amongst that I've been haunted by phenolic (might be mis spelt) infection!! I'll make 3-4 good brews then boom, that unmistakable medicinal smell of phenols!! I clean my fermenters with pbw, rinse, a *spray with starsan and let them sit till brew day. Then I'll rinse again with my left over hot mash in water.*
> I thought it might be wild yeasts, but I thought I eliminated that issue by carrying my fermenters full of wort into my shed and shutting all the doors.
> Anyway... It is killing me.. Help please


I reckon that might be your problem right there. Brew day is when your fermenter need to be at its most spick and span. Sanitising with Starsan days before doesn't mean its not filthy with microbes come brew day.

I'd avoid using caustic soda too if you're not used to mixing, handling and storing it safely. Not the sort of stuff to leave lying around or forget about and kids etc to get into. If you do use it, wear full face screen, shoes (or boots) and chem resistant gloves. No second chances if you f*ck it up.


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## dicko (3/1/16)

There are many other things that may cause an infection in a ferment.

Yeast quality.
Water quality if topping up after the boil.
Air quality in the brewhouse.
Plumbing on the brewery itself.....ball valves, tubing, fixed piping etc
Contaminated equipment that come into contact with the wort....spoons, hydrometers, air stones no chill cubes etc...the list goes on.

If we go back before sodium percarbonate and napisan and did not want to use sodium metebisulphide which really was not a sanitiser anyway, then BOILING WATER was your friend in the home brewery, used after a thorough clean on all equipment.

Good luck with it as sometimes finding the cause can be a reall bugger.


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## barabool (3/1/16)

As above but place special attention on cleaning your taps - i think it can be one of the most overlooked places for cleaning.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/10484-cleaning-fermenter-taps/


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## TwoCrows (3/1/16)

+ 1 to Dicko's post

Clean sterile water is key to limiting infection.
Also Dicko stated air quality, sit the lid on fermenter between additions of water , yeast and minimise airborne contaminates.

I use the kitchen kettle to boil the water I add to my stock pot for hop editions and then use the kettle to fill the fermenter in conjunction with chilled and sanitised water bottles from the fridge.
If you need to use a hose buy a food grade one as garden hoses tastes bad , really bad.

This is all I do and no infections as yet, if infected the above posts are the most plausible way to fix your problem


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Ducati stu you nutter. :lol:


Sometimes you have to go in hard to get rid of infections. No point ******* about, go in hard

And change in sanitizing regime helps a lot as does a rapid change from one type to another. Ie Acid --> caustic --> bleach

I would also look at the workspace you brew and ferment in. Is your fridge clean, is the workspace clean. The environment also is a factor to consider.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Feldon said:


> I'd avoid using caustic soda too if you're not used to mixing, handling and storing it safely. Not the sort of stuff to leave lying around or forget about and kids etc to get into. If you do use it, wear full face screen, shoes (or boots) and chem resistant gloves. No second chances if you f*ck it up.


Caustic is nasty, but its pretty much the ducks nuts when it comes to cleaning and sanitizing. Nothing survives a good does of caustic


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## motman (3/1/16)

Medicinal off flavours can also be caused by chlorine from either sanitising or the source water (according g to J Palmer and a few other books). Maybe consider activated carbon filtering your water. It'd explain variable incidences, as treatment plants tend to vary chlorine and chloramine additions in response to water quality.


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## Rod (3/1/16)

Pink stain remover

good rinse

before fermenting


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## mofox1 (3/1/16)

Most as above. After giving it a good jet hose out, I use a mild detergent with a soft sponge to mechanically remove all gunk. Then rinse and give it a good hot perc soak, then soak tap (occasionally breaking it apart).

The perc soak isn't full, maybe a third. As I'm usually cleaning other stuff I'll give a good shake and invert every time I go past, duct tap on the air lock hole.

Leave at least an hour or overnight, empty, rinse and throw in a cup or so of star san and give it a good shake.

I make sure I run the rinse water and some star san through the tap at the end too, and wrap the tap in some paper towel to keep garage dust out.

If/when bleach is required I give it a full volume soak after in hot perc to remove the bleach odours.


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## manticle (3/1/16)

hooper80 said:


> I used to use bleach but then stopped trying to eliminate problems and it worked..... But only for a few brews! Do u measure the bleach concentrate? Actually, can u please tell me the concentrate for all of the above? I need to solve this problem cause is very disheartening and my misses hates hearing about it!! Hahaha


Chlorine bleach if improperly rinsed, can result in strong medicinal flavours (chlorophenols).

Boiling water and sodium metabisulphite are effective at reducing/removing bleach residue. Sodium met should be rinsed and avoid vapour inhalation.

Also look at replacing or pulling apart fermenter taps and examining any hoses.


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## Jazzman (3/1/16)

I just rinse mine out after bottling and remove all krausen with my hands, no scourer (this makes little scratches which hold bacteria).
Turn em upside down till dry, and store them with lid lightly on.
Then on brew day wash them with pink brewers soap and rinse and brew.
No problems so far.


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## DU99 (3/1/16)

Hose all crap out,few drops of non fragrant dishwashing liquid,4 spoons of Perc and fill to the top,put lid on top and leave for a few hrs,drain thru tap,rinse and drain then place lid on..no issues.....


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Dont forget that Nappi-San/Sod Perc needs HOT water for it to activate properly


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## hooper80 (3/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Caustic is nasty, but its pretty much the ducks nuts when it comes to cleaning and sanitizing. Nothing survives a good does of caustic


So pbw is no substitute for caustic?


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## mstrelan (3/1/16)

Last year I brewed 12 FWK's with this method

Hose out as much as possible after bottling/kegging
Fill with warm water / PBW
Leave overnight, wipe out with clean chux and give it a good rinse
On brew day rinse out again then sanitize with about 5L of Star San making sure to give it a good shake.
Thoroughly spray lid, tap, grommet, air lock etc with Star San


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

There is no substitute for caustic. Its the final frontier B)


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## Bridges (3/1/16)

Where do I buy Ducatiboy Stu brand caustic?


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## Nick the Knife (3/1/16)

FWIW if you're using bleach you'll get the best from it if you 'acidify' the bleach+water mix by adding the same volume of white vinegar as you did bleach. Bleach by itself is so-so as a cleaner/bug killer but when acidified it's much more effective so you can actually use significantly less of it .

Just be sure to add the vinegar to the bleach+water mix and NOT to the bleach.


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## Feldon (3/1/16)

.




http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/16-common-product-combinations-you-should-never-mix#.jyr0Orr5zZ


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## AJS2154 (3/1/16)

Its great being a bloke.....we all are problem solvers and go straight into solution mode. I do it all the time too.

In this instance, I suspect the answer might lie in knowing more about your brewing / fermenting routine. Phenols are not always caused by infections, and in your case you might change you sanitisation routine and still have the off flavour. Something to consider. You say every 3 or 4 brews the flavour occurs. Do you always use the same yeasts? Go back through your records and have a look at your ingredients. Is there a common ingredient in the brew on the off flavoured beers? Did you change you sanitisation technique? How old is your fermenter, is it plastic or stainless? Plastic fermenters can hide nasties no matter how clean you are, but especially if it has scratches.

BTW, Nick the Knife nailed it when he said that common household bleach when mixed with vinegar is a killer. It sure is, one of the best out there but because it is cheap I think we overlook it. Bleach contains available chlorine which is present in solution in the form of sodium hypochlorite and hypochlorous acid. Hypochlorous acid is a powerful germ-killing agent which kills bacteria, yeasts, moulds and many viruses. I only use it if I have a concern about the cleanliness of something, and then only when I can be sure the item will be *totally *dry before I use it. Only small amounts of chlorine can create chlorophenols. Maybe you can mix up the fermenter full and soak it for a day or two then put it out in full sun. The sun is also a great assistant.

Last thing from me. Pull apart your tap if possible. Otherwise, soak it in a small jar with your chosen sanitiser.


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## Reman (3/1/16)

manticle said:


> Chlorine bleach if improperly rinsed, can result in strong medicinal flavours (chlorophenols).


I had exactly this happen and the result was a tipper. If you use bleach, make sure you rinse thouroughly!


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## AJS2154 (3/1/16)

Feldon said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, put you head over most chemicals and inhale them.........probably should make sure it is used where there is adequate ventilation or outside.....and don't breathe the fumes.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Bridges said:


> Where do I buy Ducatiboy Stu brand caustic?


From the DBS online store

Note: Once your order is placed I will go to Coles and buy it, then post it to you.. This is a non profit service, but I do add a " Quick schooner at the pub " surcharge to all orders


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## Vini2ton (3/1/16)

Whoa whoa Bleach caustic noses fumes. What the? I just use one of those soft dish clothe thingos and water to clean fermenter's surfaces and all seals get a K-meta spray. Then soak in sod per and rinse. More often than not wort goes into fermenter without further phos-acid treatment and after many brews have not had an issue. Are you sure you don't have a witch living nearby?


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## antiphile (3/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Dont forget that Nappi-San/Sod Perc needs HOT water for it to activate properly


I'm afraid I have to call you in on this one, Duck Soup, because I think you are bluffing. Hot water with sod perc is the worst way to get a good result. It breaks down into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate in water, and it's the oxidising effect of the hydrogen peroxide that is the key to its anti-microbial action. In hot water, all you get is a quick conversion and a bubbling off of the oxygen, so while it may be more active at that time, it is a very short acting effect. It is much better to use tepid (at best) water, and allow a much longer time of activity, albeit at a slightly less level of activity, to get maximum effect over a period of about 6-24 hours (instead of 30 mins).

Of course, to ensure full dissolution it doesn't hurt to stir it occasionally (with a clean implement), but I never use water above 25C to get the most effective sanitation.

Cheers mate


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

You need the hot water to activate it properly. Its something like 70*c....


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## antiphile (3/1/16)

OK, Big Boy, we might have to agree to disagree. There is absolutely no activation needed. Once it dissolves it will do the exact same thing whether that is at 20C or at 99C. The only difference is there will be a lot more oxygen released from the peroxide component and lost to the atmosphere above the liquid (and less dissolved into the water) at a higher temperature to oxidise the microbial cell walls, than at a lower temperature.

But I still love you and will give you a wet sloppy kiss when I meet you next (but no tongues, 'cos I'm a Catholic  )


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## sponge (3/1/16)

I'd be curious to know if there's any definitive information regarding the activation of sodium perc. I've always just filled with tap water and never had an issue. I don't have easy access to instant hot water in the brew shed and don't want to waste energy heating water up to let a fermenter soak for a few days. Haven't had an issue in regards to infection thus far but would like to know any additional information on this.


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## sponge (3/1/16)

Granted, I do run hot perc through the brewery after a brew, but just for standard soaking of cubes and fermenters I use tap water.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

antiphile said:


> OK, Big Boy, we might have to agree to disagree. There is absolutely no activation needed. Once it dissolves it will do the exact same thing whether that is at 20C or at 99C. The only difference is there will be a lot more oxygen released from the peroxide component and lost to the atmosphere above the liquid (and less dissolved into the water) at a higher temperature to oxidise the microbial cell walls, than at a lower temperature.
> 
> But I still love you and will give you a wet sloppy kiss when I meet you next (but no tongues, 'cos I'm a Catholic  )


But I read it on the Internet so it must be true


That and the bit about using hot water with sodium-perc


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## dicko (3/1/16)

Sodium percarbonate, apart from its first reaction when added to hot water is really only SOAP.
Acids and alkalis are what you need for sanitation.
High temperature and time is what you need for sterilising...


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## quadbox (3/1/16)

dicko said:


> Acids and alkalis are what you need for sanitation.


It's nowhere near that simple. Some fairly strong acids and alkalis are nowhere near as good at killing off bacteria as iodine is as iodophor. Or as phosphoric acid is, which is a very weak acid. It's not the ph of the sanitisers that makes them great sanitisers, it's other qualities in their interaction with the organism.


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## dicko (3/1/16)

The OP is blaming a dirty fermenter for an off taste and that is really a broad generalisation, similar to my above statement.
We can all comment as to how he should clean, sanitise and prepare his fermenter for the next ferment.
Personally if it was me and I was positive it was my fermenter I would go down to my local friendly home brew shop and by a new fermenter. 
If it is the fermenter and the OP has done everything that has been advised/suggested in ths thread and he has used all the available sanitisers and methods then there is no other alternative.
What does a plastic fermenter cost?
I think the last one I bought from a brew shop in Adelaide was 22 bucks and that was around 3 years ago.


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## antiphile (3/1/16)

Agreed, Big Ted (BTW, is there any chance you can set me up with Jemima for a date?)

We are not talking sterilisation here. What we aim for is sanitisation (which is a combination of cleaning and disinfection). And there are many ways to achieve disinfection to deactivate the micro-organisms. One is strong acids (eg. StarSan). One is a very strong alkali. And one is oxidation.

While Sodium Perc is an alkali, it is not strong enough to deactivate most organisms. It works predominantly by an oxidising action to damage the cell wall.

And a longer contact time is way more effective than a short contact time.

Cheers

Edited: and an included surfactant helps. The one in Starsan is very effective but Sodum Perc has no dedicated one, though is does feel "soapy" to the touch.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

Ah...the long forgotten idophor... Good stuff but turned evrything brown


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

antiphile said:


> but Sodum Perc has no dedicated one, though is does feel "soapy" to the touch.


That is the Sodium-Carbonate your feeling. It is the surfactant


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## hooper80 (3/1/16)

dicko said:


> The OP is blaming a dirty fermenter for an off taste and that is really a broad generalisation, similar to my above statement.
> We can all comment as to how he should clean, sanitise and prepare his fermenter for the next ferment.
> Personally if it was me and I was positive it was my fermenter I would go down to my local friendly home brew shop and by a new fermenter.
> If it is the fermenter and the OP has done everything that has been advised/suggested in ths thread and he has used all the available sanitisers and methods then there is no other alternative.
> ...


Yeah I am the op and that's what I'm gunna do. I've had em for over a year now, so I think it easy to just get a few more. Another thing I've thought of is I've had trouble getting my wort down under 26-27 degrees before I pitch my yeast. For my next brew I've set up my old mash tun as a ice bank before it hits my Emersion chiller. You think this temp could be causing the phenols?


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## antiphile (3/1/16)

IMHO, pitching at that temp isn't necessarily a problem, provided you can get the temp down to, say, sub-22 pretty quickly. Fermenting above that target is likely to give phenols and esters (with most yeasts).


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/16)

hooper80 said:


> I've had trouble getting my wort down under 26-27 degrees before I pitch my yeast.
> You think this temp could be causing the phenols?


Yes

But it wont make it taste like its infected


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## hooper80 (3/1/16)

antiphile said:


> IMHO, pitching at that temp isn't necessarily a problem, provided you can get the temp down to, say, sub-22 pretty quickly. Fermenting above that target is likely to give phenols and esters (with most yeasts).


Cheers, it Gos straight into a temp controlled fridge, 10 degress for my largers, 18 for ales.


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## antiphile (3/1/16)

G'day Hoop

Please beleve me when I say I'm really not trying to take the piss. Is it possible it's not a problem with phenols/esters etc? I know in the past I've diagnosed a problem (and subsequently confirmed it to myself), only to get another opinion and find I was quite wrong.

Are you able to get someone you trust to give an opinion? Failing that, a while ago, MHB posted info about this Beer Fault Guide that might give you some other causes.

All the best.


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## dicko (4/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yes
> 
> But it wont make it taste like its infected


Many types of yeast can get phenols at higher temperatures and some yeast have that characteristic as normal.
Instructions by the yeast manufacturers should be followed for best results.


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## Fylp (4/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ah...the long forgotten idophor... Good stuff but turned evrything brown


I've never had an infection (fingers crossing - knocking on wood) and I only use idophor and elbow grease. When I started many years ago the ancient fella at the ESB factory gave me the direction and followed ever since. I don't mind the brown and use it in two different strengths, nuclear and no rinse.


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## Fylp (4/1/16)

dicko said:


> Many types of yeast can get phenols at higher temperatures and some yeast have that characteristic as normal.
> Instructions by the yeast manufacturers should be followed for best results.


Without temp control at this time of year you could end up with all sorts of flavours.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/1/16)

Brewers should regularly change their sanitation regime and chemicals to keep the bugs at bay


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## Rod (4/1/16)

mofox1 said:


> Most as above. After giving it a good jet hose out, I use a mild detergent with a soft sponge to mechanically remove all gunk. Then rinse and give it a good hot perc soak, then soak tap (occasionally breaking it apart).
> 
> The perc soak isn't full, maybe a third. As I'm usually cleaning other stuff I'll give a good shake and invert every time I go past, duct tap on the air lock hole.
> 
> ...


I always dismantle tap


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## Nick the Knife (4/1/16)

Feldon said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With all due respect did you actually read my post or simply see bleach + vinegar being mentioned and knee jerk react that mixing these together ALONE was a bad idea?

I clearly stated that you mix bleach with water and THEN add an equal amount of vinegar - this simple process will NOT create Chlorine gas. Suffice to say the correct amounts of bleach as recommended on it's package should be used e.g 1:50 bleach to water.

So much so is what you stated untrue that IF used correctly (bleach+water)+vinegar can actually be used as a highly effective NO RINSE sanitiser (actually endorsed & recommended by Charlie Talley, the founder/owner of 5 Star Chemicals (makers of Starsan!).

So whilst I understand your reaction that 'bleach + vinegar = bad' it's simply NOT what I said and therefore it's incorrect. As when used correctly it's a very highly effective product thats according to Charlie Talley as good as anything commercial.


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## tugger (4/1/16)

When I had a similar problem I solved it by going to a ss fermenter and doing a 20 min boil in the fermenter with water every few brews. 
Standard pbw and starsan in between. 
Then the transfer from the kettle is covered with foil as much as possible.


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## TheWiggman (4/1/16)

My process -

Post-bottling/kegging, rinse with hot water to remove yeast and trub
Tip in half a cap of unscented Aldi-brand Di-San plus a jug (1.7l) of boiling water
Lid on immediately, shake and swirl the hell out of it and make sure all surfaces are contacted. Roll liquid over krausen ring.
Wait for 10 mins, repeat.
Wipe internals with a chux cloth
Drain and rinse with hot water, and continue to rinse and wipe with a cloth until all residue is gone
Tip in jug of boiled water and shake again.
Leave until cool, tip water
Pour ~150ml of Star San in, shake, then tip
Allow to air dry then store
Prior to fermenting, I'll give it another quick sanitiser hit then rinse off with boiled water. Whenever I use a cloth I always use a fresh one. Prior to touching things post-brew day I wash my hands with anti bacterial and spray with sanitiser.

Now that's what I do, as per the thread title, and since doing this have had 2 infections - one in the fermenter with hydrated yeast and another in a keg. I've had 2 fermenting infections now as you describe (phenol/vinyl taste but no signs visually of an infection) using rehydrated yeast but never with liquid yeast. The infection that occurred in the keg was fine in bottles of the same batch, and I later found some crap in the dip tube which I'm potentially attributing to the infection. In the other infection I discovered I hadn't cleaned the tap, possibly the cause.

Prior to this method the one infection was with a far more wasteful regime of a multi-day soak with 4 x the Di-San. This was at a different house. Nothing else has been common (fermenter, yeast, transfer tube, keg) and the brews before and after were fine with the same gear. So even though all the good intentions and skill may be there, the environment can still potentially lead to an infection as ultimately there will always be _some_ airborne nasties in the head space of your fermenter.


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## Feldon (4/1/16)

Nick the Knife said:


> With all due respect did you actually read my post or simply see bleach + vinegar being mentioned and knee jerk react that mixing these together ALONE was a bad idea?
> 
> I clearly stated that you mix bleach with water and THEN add an equal amount of vinegar - this simple process will NOT create Chlorine gas. Suffice to say the correct amounts of bleach as recommended on it's package should be used e.g 1:50 bleach to water.
> 
> ...



I said nothing of the sort. I simply posted a picture and provided a link to a web site.

If you've got a problem with that, take it up with the web site. And don't shoot the messenger.

The reason I posted it was your post suggested people chuck together vinegar and bleach with no detail on the quantities to be used nor sufficient info on safe handling of the mixture. By doing so you irresponsibly put other homebrewers reading this thread at potential risk if they start messing around with chemicals without sufficient guidance as to the hazards involved.

I made my post to remedy your shortcomings. You should thank me.


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## Nick the Knife (4/1/16)

Feldon said:


> I said nothing of the sort. I simply posted a picture and provided a link to a web site.
> 
> If you've got a problem with that, take it up with the web site. And don't shoot the messenger.
> 
> ...


What semantics...I didn't say it, I just posted a picture and link. 

Again as you seem to be very selective of reading...I clearly stated mix bleach with water then mix in an equal measure of vinegar. And yet you've somehow skipped over this KEY bit of info (which was hardly a detail as it was flagged clearly) - so all I can deduce is perhaps you're exactly the type of person who's daft enough to not read simple 3 ingredient instructions and cause yourself issues?

Honestly....saying such things as "...you irresponsibly put other homebrewers reading this thread at potential risk if they start messing around with chemicals without sufficient guidance as to the hazards involved. I made my post to remedy your shortcomings. You should thank me."

Oh man....I gotta bite my tongue a bit on this but last I checked this was a homebrew forum for adults and handling basic chemicals, applying a shred of common sense is something I think 99.99% of us here are ok with, you're not......fair enough neither is my nephews guinea pig.

Now that you've got your daily trolling effort out of the way, can we please just move on.


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## Feldon (4/1/16)

I admit I missed the quantity detail you posted. Apology for that. But you did fail to mention the risks of chlorine gas. No small thing. Ever seen what a wiff of chlorine can do to someone with asthma? Not pretty. And this is not an adults only site - its on the public internet and anybody can read it. I just think we all have a responsibility to fully explain hazards with any suggestions we make. Not that many posters do. Doesn't make it right though.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/1/16)

* And this is not an adults only site - its on the public internet and anybody can read it. I just think we all have a responsibility to fully explain hazards with any suggestions we make. Not that many posters do. Doesn't make it right though.*


Thank god this isnt a " How to wire my house up by myself to turn it into a brewery " thread


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## hooper80 (4/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Add a little bleach and vinegar to the bath water
> 
> I can only say try it and get back to me on the result B)


What have I started!!!!


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## barls (4/1/16)

ok far enough off topic.


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## spog (4/1/16)

Gotta love AHB a question is asked ,a multitude of answers are given and a bun fight ensues..


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## Bridges (4/1/16)

And ultimately lots of people a right, after all they are only stating what works for them. So OP take from that there is many ways to skin a cat.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/1/16)

spog said:


> Gotta love AHB a question is asked ,a multitude of answers are given and a bun fight ensues. .


Lucky it didnt got off topic


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## Vini2ton (4/1/16)

Knowledge learnt in a tough environment will stay with you through tough times.


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## dicko (4/1/16)

hooper80 said:


> What have I started!!!!


You are fine hooper80, a very normal enquiry railroaded by some who appear to have a personal adgenda supporting disruption


barls said:


> ok far enough off topic.


had to get rid of the crap barls these clowns obviously showed no respect at your suggestion



Ducatiboy stu said:


> Lucky it didnt got off topic


you my friend, would be the best at dragging a subject off topic



Vini2ton said:


> Knowledge learnt in a tough environment will stay with you through tough times.


You would do better to learn to keep discussions on this forum "on topic"

.......................................................................................................................................................................................

If you don't have anything to contribute to the subject then don't post.


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## Danscraftbeer (4/1/16)

I got lost in it all but! The plastic. How long a shelf life for a plastic fermenter? Its common brewing sense you cant use a plastic fermenter that's been used for Sour Beer for eg. Because its infected basically. Plastic stains. Whats in that stain? I'm battling with an off flavour in my best attempts of beer lately. I've always used plastic fermenters never had a problem and if I did I still kept using the fermenters with thorough cleaning with Sodium Percarbonate but that doesn't get rid of the stains unless you use hot water (up to boiled 95c+. One fermenter I got stained on the bottom after the first brew. Never can realy get rid of it totally and it re stains every brew anyway. 
I'm ranting on plastic yes, and what ever that strange fume and after taste of my beer lately.


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## Rocker1986 (4/1/16)

What are you putting in it? I have a plastic FV that I've been using for probably nearly 3 years now, maybe longer, and it still looks as clean and white as the day I bought it.


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## btrots87 (4/1/16)

After bottling all I do is empty the trub on to the garden, give it a good rinse out with the garden hose to remove most of the krausen ring, then fill it with warm water and some pink stain remover. Let it sit for a couple of hours or overnight, empty and rinse with water. Before brewing sanitize with about 5L of star san.


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## Danscraftbeer (4/1/16)

What is this Pink stain remover? :huh: I'm not going to google for this I'm on a Brewing forum. :chug:


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## barls (4/1/16)

psr
http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/products/PSR.html

as for me personally. nothing better to kill than warm psr, 65+ sodium per carbonate and 70+ sodium hydroxide.
in that order. if it survives those three it deserves to live.


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## btrots87 (4/1/16)

Also known as PSR. They sell it at country brewer. It's pink, it removes stains, so I'm assuming this is how the marketing team came up with the name.

Works really well. I think it is chlorinated trisodium phosphate.

Edit: Barls beat me to it.


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## barls (4/1/16)

not to be confused with tsp.
two completely different products


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## Danscraftbeer (4/1/16)

Cheers! will have to try some


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## Blind Dog (5/1/16)

It's been posted before, but having suffered exactly the same issue with certain types of beer only, I'd be looking at making sure I'd removed all chlorine and chloramine from the brewing water. I use 1/2 Camden tablet (potassium metabisulpite) for the 30 odd litres I use for mash and sparge.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/16)

Blind Dog said:


> It's been posted before, but having suffered exactly the same issue with certain types of beer only, I'd be looking at making sure I'd removed all chlorine and chloramine from the brewing water. I use 1/2 Camden tablet (potassium metabisulpite) for the 30 odd litres I use for mash and sparge.


Slightly OT

*4.1.3 Metabisulfite* (Campden Tablet) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal.[SIZE=medium] The tablets are either potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite. [/SIZE]Both are effective in disinfectant removal.[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]When sodium content in the brewing water is a concern, potassium metabisulfite may be preferred.[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]Moderate potassium content in brewing water generally has less effect on brewing performance or taste.[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]Adding these compounds at a rate of about 9 milligrams per liter (~35 milligrams per gallon or ~1 tablet per 20 gallons) or (~1 tablet per 75 liters) will dechlorinate typical municipal water and leave residual concentrations of about 3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride.[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]These ion contributions are relatively insignificant and can be ignored in practice. The reaction equations for chlorine and chloramine with metabisulfite are shown below. Note that extra H+ protons are produced by the reactions (acidity) and the water alkalinity will be reduced.
 metabisulfite (S2O5-2) + monochloramine (2NH2Cl) + 3H20 --> 2NH4+ + 2Cl- + 2SO4-2 + 2H+ 
metabisulfite (S2O5-2) + hypochlorite (2OCl-) + H20 -->  2Cl- + 2SO4-2 + 2H+ 

*4.1.4 Ascorbic Acid* (Vitamin C) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal. As indicated in the compound's name, this is an acid and it does reduce water pH if unreacted with a chlorine compound. In distilled water, it can produce a pH as low as 3.0. It is sometimes used in municipal water treatment, however it's pH reduction effect and higher cost can make it less desirable than metabisulfite addition. Ascorbic acid is added at a rate of 1.7 milligrams per liter (~6.4 milligrams per gallon) to remove up to 3 milligrams per liter of chloramine. The reaction equation for ascorbic acid and chloramine produces ammonium (NH4), chloride, and dehydroascorbic acid. Since the dosing is very low, the resulting concentrations are not a concern. Be aware that ammonium is a yeast nutrient and is not a problem in brewing water. The reaction is shown below:
 ascorbic acid (C6H8O6) + monochloramine (NH2Cl) --> NH4+ + Cl- + C6H6O6
A similar dosage will also remove chlorine (OCl-) from water. The reaction produces water, chloride, and dehydroascorbic acid.
 ascorbic acid (C6H8O6) + hypochlorite (OCl-) --> H2O + Cl- + C6H6O6


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