# Corn Syrup Aint Corn Syrup



## foxy (4/8/06)

i was told by a guru homebrewer that theres corn syrup, and theres syrup. On the packet when you buy it there should be a code "DE48" for example. This is not a batch number. Well DE48 is 50% fermentable, whereas DE17 is only 20% fermentable. so you'll get more body for buck with the DE17


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## PostModern (4/8/06)

Good to know. But what place is there for corn syrup in brewing? I don't like it, even the yeast don't like it. Not enough body? Mash warmer or use malt extract in place of any white powder.

*flame suit on*


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## foxy (4/8/06)

PostModern said:


> Good to know. But what place is there for corn syrup in brewing? I don't like it, even the yeast don't like it. Not enough body? Mash warmer or use malt extract in place of any white powder.
> 
> *flame suit on*


It gives extra body and head retention, without the flavour. you can only add so much malt to taste, and if still want more body/head retention/thickness you add dried corn. its cheap, and i dont mash - too much effort


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## Fingerlickin_B (4/8/06)

Corn syrup makes beer "slimy" :blink: 

Malt, malt, malt :beerbang: 

PZ.


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## Uncle Fester (4/8/06)

In particular, a little wheat malt should get you over the line....

Festa


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## PostModern (4/8/06)

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Corn syrup makes beer "slimy" :blink:



I agree. Can taste it a mile away.


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## warrenlw63 (4/8/06)

Also don't be surprised if a lot of "name brand" homebrew kits already have varying amounts of the stuff in them anyway. :unsure: 

I agree with the others. It gives a slimy/slick coating sensation on the pallette. Also mutes hop bitterness too IMO. Nasty stuff. 

Fester! Love your avatar. :lol: 

Warren -


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## Mr Bond (4/8/06)

You guys are talking maltodextrin.....Yeah?
Horrible stuff <_< 
Even @ K'n'K level it would be much better to crack and steep 250 gms of carapils wouldn't it?


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## Trough Lolly (4/8/06)

Agreed...I have a bag of corn syrup unopened on the shelf that was going to add body, but then I learned more about mash temps, carapils etc etc...
Yeah, the fester avatar is a beauty!! An afternoon staple when I got back from school!! Oops there I go showing my age again!!

Cheers,
TL


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## Trough Lolly (4/8/06)

Brauluver said:


> You guys are talking maltodextrin.....Yeah?
> Horrible stuff <_<
> Even @ K'n'K level it would be much better to crack and steep 250 gms of carapils wouldn't it?



Yep maltodextrin, aka, corn syrup...


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## warrenlw63 (4/8/06)

Trough Lolly said:


> Yeah, the fester avatar is a beauty!! An afternoon staple when I got back from school!! Oops there I go showing my age again!!
> 
> Cheers,
> TL



Get that lightbulb out of your mouth TL! :lol:  

Warren -


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## matti (4/8/06)

I use 5-10 % maltodextrine to some of my Pale ales.
Providing You disguise it well with malt and hop you produce a lovely head without overcarbonized brews.
I.e If I am to prime with 180g dextrose for 23 litre, I substitute about 20 gram with maltodextrine. 
If its beer for a party... who cares :beerbang: 
matti


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## MHB (4/8/06)

The old Corn Syrup / Maltodextrin one again

Corn Syrup is Maltodextrin
Corn Sugar is Dextrose, or properly Dexter Rotated Glucose Mono Hydrate,

Both are made from any starchy grain, in the US they use Corn in Australia we use Wheat to provide the starch; the naming comes about because the Americans cant imagine that anyone would do it any way other than their way.

In any case in a factory like the one Tony from Tamworth works in they take a starchy grain, mill it, separate out the bits that arent starch, digest the starch using a series of chemical and/or enzymic reactions. Starch is just a series of Glucose molecules joined up they un-join them.

If you carry the reactions to completion you end up with Glucose, if you control or arrest the reaction you get higher sugars called Maltins.

This is a chemical analogy of what we do in mashing; we reduce large starch molecules to simpler sugars, the end sugar being primarily Maltose. Maltose is Glucose-Glucose, cut that in half and put a water molecule where they were joined and were back to Dextrose.

This is why home brewers prefer Dextrose to Sugar (Sucrose, Glucose-Fructose). Dextrose produces the same fermentation products as dose Maltose.

As you know if you mash hotter you get more Dextrins in your finished beer. Dextrins being Glucose chains that wont ferment but are soluble, the simplest of these can be trisaccharides or Glucose-Glucose-Glucose.

Maltins are engineered Dextrins that mimic the taste and texture produced during the mashing process. They are called Maltins because they are the same as the body producing products we make when we mash.

Having said that I am not saying that they will taste identical, there are dozens of Maltins and Dextrins, the ratio of the different forms will determine the overall flavour profile.

Used judiciously Maltdextrose can improve the mouth feel of a beer. You can over dose on it, but you would no more use kilos of the stuff in a brew than you would do all youre mashing hot, for the same reasons, the beer would be totally out of balance.

Maltodextrin is a tool in the brewers box of tricks, if you understand what it dose and how to apply it you can make better beer.

MHB


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## stephen (4/8/06)

MHB

A very informative post. Took me back to high school chemistry. Backed up what I have primitively tried to explain to others regards the "sugars".

Cheers

Steve


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## Mr Bond (4/8/06)

MHB,
Your post clears it up and says it all really,in a practical sense.

Taste buds are the defining answer I guess(Read Preference)

After Many years of extract brewing with all sorts of adjuncts ,I found that for ales with a little more mouthfeel required, steeping and using carapils grains provided a smoother and more balanced mouthfeel than Maltodextrin.call me a tosser but i think that K'n"k brewers who want to move up and play with specialty grains as an entry level "thing" to partial or AG could benefit from starting with carapils as a trial.

Use a can of Goo,as per usual.

Instead of using a booster from LHB, buy a kilo of DME, a kilo of Dextrose< and 500 gms of Carapils.(From LHB of course)

Crack, steep and strain 250 grams of carapils.Boil with 500 gms of DME and flava aroma hops for 15 min.
Flame Out. Add can and 500 gms dextrose. cool and top up to 20 odd litres in ferm.
Pitch and ferment as usual.
You will still have equal amounts of Malt , dex , and carapils left over for another brew.

I now control body/mouthfeel via mash temps, but still use carapils as a component of the grist.


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## MHB (4/8/06)

Brauluver
I agree with you, nothing gives you more control of your finished product than does mashing. Sadly only a small proportion of brewers (less than 1%) will ever mash.

We encourage people to use wheat malt and grain in the ways mentioned in previous posts and I think the results encourage people to experiment further.

We have to remember that a lot of people who read this forum are looking to improve their brewing. They read what we write. Many cant or havent taken the step to AG brewing

To compulsively say Maltodextrin is bad is I think misleading, misusing the product would be wrong, as is over hopping and adding too much yeast.

But malt and hops are both GOOD arent they?

Well yes used well their great as is a little Maltodextrin.
Its just another tool, some like it some dont
Its all about making the beer you enjoy
MHB


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## Murray (4/8/06)

So you are advocating that people _not_ post their experience with maltodextrin?


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## matti (4/8/06)

only true way TO FIND out
EXpeRIMENT with some knowledge :angry: :wacko:


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## poppa joe (4/8/06)

I mainly add.. Dme..Dextrose...AND 125gm..Maltodextrin....To all my brews...
Am i doing "sumfin" wrong..???????
Lately trying a BRAULOVER style....Steeping..etc..
And small mashing...First one a failure..
Cheers
PJ


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## Murray (4/8/06)

poppa joe said:


> I mainly add.. Dme..Dextrose...AND 125gm..Maltodextrin....To all my brews...
> Am i doing "sumfin" wrong..???????



If you are making beer you enjoy, then no. Of course, that is relative.



> Lately trying a BRAULOVER style....Steeping..etc..
> And small mashing...First one a failure..
> Cheers
> PJ



That is disappointing, but when you get it right it will be worth it. Concentrate on nailing the steeping before the mashing.


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## MHB (4/8/06)

Murray

Not at all, the guy that started the thread was asking a question or making a comment on the various forms of Maltodextrin on the market, I am not quite sure which, he sort of got slam dunked with how bad Maltodextrin is.

I dont agree that Maltodextrin is all bad; I said so and explained why I think what I do.

I do think we must be aware that not everyone who appears here is a masher the original post was either asking or explaining about Maltodextrin and its DE. To just say Drugs are bad doesnt address the question.
Mashing is great, but it isnt the only form of brewing, I just think it is a better forum when people can ask/comment on issues other than mashing without getting trampled. Hay they might hang around and become mashers if we dont scare them off.

I had intended to comment on DE but got side tracked.

DE is Dextrose Equivalence.
DE 17 is 17% as fermentable as is 1 Kg of Dextrose.
DE 48 is 48 % as fermentable as is 1 Kg of Dextrose so just over half of it remains in your beer as Dextrins that add body and mouthfeel.

So yes the lower the DE the more Maltins remain in the beer, however the only widely available form of Maltodextrin (around here anyway) is Fieldose 30. This is the form supplied by both of the big wholesalers to home brew shops. Would you believe that it is 30% fermentable?

I personally am less than convinced that Maltodextrin is the best way to improve head retention, a little dried (say 100-150g) Wheat Malt works a treat.

MHB


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## poppa joe (4/8/06)

Is the wheat a steeper???? or a masher?????
The few attempts i have had included wheat.....mashed with the rest of the stuff..
Cheers
PJ
PS...MHB...I have a Barley Crusher...


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## PostModern (4/8/06)

MHB, I highly respect your opinion and understand the k'n'k users' experience with maltodextrin, but I have never tasted a beer that would not have been better without it, unless I have tasted beer where the brewer has lied to me about its inclusion. It always tastes "slimey" and it always gives me wind.


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## Murray (4/8/06)

poppa joe said:


> Is the wheat a steeper???? or a masher?????
> The few attempts i have had included wheat.....mashed with the rest of the stuff..
> Cheers
> PJ
> PS...MHB...I have a Barley Crusher...



As a generalisation, wheat malt will require mashing. As a general guide, your steeping malts are the crystal malts, cara malts and roasted malts. 

There is plenty of easy to understand info here that you can browse with the search function. The good thing about having people's experiences at your fingertips is we have all gone through the same thing.

MHB: While there was an element of 'just mash ffs' I think it is clear that there was also the element that people have had bad experiences with maltodextrin with k&k. It is great that you provide your knowledge though.


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## warrenlw63 (4/8/06)

PostModern said:


> and it always gives me wind.



:blink: :blink: 

Warren -


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## MHB (4/8/06)

Poppa Joe
I was talking about Wheat DME, Muntons make a spray dried version that is worth attention from anyone making extract based brews, as are the rest of the Muntons dried malts.

Post Modern
Fair cop I would avoid Maltodextrin if ever you are visiting my place I would defiantly rather you avoided Maltodextrin. After 20 years of brewing I am way over SO2. I think I have developed a bit of a sensitivity.

We all have to find out what works best for us I think the key point is what is best is a very individual answer, rather than an absolute.

Cheers
MHB
and good night


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## Kai (5/8/06)

MHB said:


> I had intended to comment on DE but got side tracked.
> 
> DE is Dextrose Equivalence.
> DE 17 is 17% as fermentable as is 1 Kg of Dextrose.
> ...



aye aye


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## wessmith (5/8/06)

A bit more background:
http://www.penford.com.au/
Have a look under starches...

Wes


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## foxy (5/8/06)

MHB said:


> Murray
> 
> Not at all, the guy that started the thread was asking a question or making a comment on the various forms of Maltodextrin on the market, I am not quite sure which, he sort of got slam dunked with how bad Maltodextrin is.
> 
> ...


MHB

I guess i was a bit unclear about my comment/question. I was making a comment on the info i picked up. It was kind of a question at the same time because i was looking for peoples reactions/comments about this info. your answer ultimately was the sort of info i was after. Nonetheless, finding out theres more than one way to skin the same cat was very helpful too. 

While im at it MHB, when you said the wheat malt works a treat would you replace the maltodextrin altogether with it? or sustitute with some of it?


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## foxy (5/8/06)

PostModern said:


> MHB, I highly respect your opinion and understand the k'n'k users' experience with maltodextrin, but I have never tasted a beer that would not have been better without it, unless I have tasted beer where the brewer has lied to me about its inclusion. It always tastes "slimey" and it always gives me wind.


Shit, if i knew i could put somethin in me brew thatd give me wind i reckon id go out of my way to put it in!
Theres not much funnier than havin a few beers with the boys, rippin a big fart, an watchin em head for the hills. We all get a big kick!


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## Mr Bond (5/8/06)

foxy said:


> MHB said:
> 
> 
> > I personally am less than convinced that Maltodextrin is the best way to improve head retention, a little dried (say 100-150g) Wheat Malt works a treat.
> ...



Replace it with wheat DME.


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## MHB (5/8/06)

Foxy
Wheat contains a bunch of head improvers, adding wheat in any form helps improve the head retention.

I was referring to Wheat DME, it helps a lot of K&K brewers make better looking beer and adds a very pleasant flavour.

MHB


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## PostModern (5/8/06)

MHB said:


> Foxy
> Wheat contains a bunch of head improvers, adding wheat in any form helps improve the head retention.
> 
> I was referring to Wheat DME, it helps a lot of K&K brewers make better looking beer and adds a very pleasant flavour.
> ...



Wheat contains proteins, which are good for head retension. Corn syrup is basically a mucilage, snotty, slimey, glue-like stuff. I know which I'd be adding to a kit.


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## Ash H (31/3/07)

foxy said:


> Shit, if i knew i could put somethin in me brew thatd give me wind i reckon id go out of my way to put it in!
> Theres not much funnier than havin a few beers with the boys, rippin a big fart, an watchin em head for the hills. We all get a big kick!



well if you're lactose intolerant...


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## Adamt (31/3/07)

You're about 7 months late with that one...


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## Ash H (31/3/07)

what the? I thought it was on the first page, doh!


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