# Gluten Free Brewing With Enzymes



## coeliacsurvivor (12/11/09)

Hi guys,

I have been following Thirstyboys threads on experimental brewing with gluten free grains and enzymes, and I am ready to give it a go.

I have gotten my hands on some enzymes, pullulanase, beta-glucanase, alpha-amylase, protease, and gluco-amylase(amyloglucosidase).

However, I don't have a lot of these as they are trial packs sent out from a company in Auckland, so I want to make sure I have the process right before I start.

I am aiming for 5L batches to start with, so my recipe and protocol is as follows, modified from Andrew (Millet man)

1/2 kg millet grain
1/2 kg sorghum syrup

Crush grain and mix with 1.0 lt water and add pullulanase, beta-glucanase, alpha-amylase, and protease.
30 min at 55C
30 min at 85C

Add cold water to reduce temperature and add gluco amylase
120 min at 65C

Then lauter and sparge, and continue as normal adding the 1/2kg of sorghum syrup to the kettle.

My problem is figuring out how much of each enzyme to add. I have calculated from the manufacturer and the internet that 1KNU(T) is the amount of alpha amylase which at pH7.1 37C dextrinises 5.26g starch dry substance per hour. So I will need 115 KNU(T)'s per kilo of grain. ~1g of my alpha amylase per kilo of grain. Will this work better or faster at a higher temp and lower pH?

But what about the others? Is there a way of calculating this or do I just play around and see what happens?

Is it ok to brew a 5L batch in a standard 30L fermenter or is there too much headspace?

Any ideas, tips, or tricks are much appreciated.

Colm


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## Thirsty Boy (12/11/09)

coeliacsurvivor said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have been following Thirstyboys threads on experimental brewing with gluten free grains and enzymes, and I am ready to give it a go.
> 
> ...



I think that you are likely to get a better, more definative answer from Millet Man.. but.

I suggest you will need less alpha amylase than that if you are using all those enzymes. The alpha knocks your amylase and amylopectin into smaller chunks, basically providing more chain ends for you sachrifying enzymes to work on. This would in a malt mash, normally be beta-amylase and be citing off maltose chunks.. but in your mash its going to predominantly be the amyloglucosidase biting off single glucose units. The pullulanase will also knock off some fermentables.

In your mash - the alpha amylase (is it heat stable bacterial AA or malt derived??) is going to be supplemented by the de-branching that the pullulanase (limit dextrinase) does. So I think you could get away with a lower dose.

BUT - your mash regime has nothing for your alpha amylase if it is malt derived with a 72ish optimum activity temp. You are too low at the 55 rest for it to do very much, and straight into kill it off territory at 85C.

Also - I don't know about thestuff you have, but the amylogucosidase and pullulanase I have been using is heat stable with an optimum temp of 80+ degrees, so cooling your mash down would not do it any good and would actually retard it.

So - lacking the specific optimum and denature temps for the enzymes you have... if I were using my enzymes I would.

Mash in at 43C (beta glucanase) with a bit of all of your enzymes - immediately start raising the temp, rising through the protease activity range, till you get to 70 or 72C - rest a bit to give your Alpha amylase a chance to play (the AMG and pullulanase will be working by now too) slowly raise it to 85 and rest there to finish off conversion.

OR - just use the beta glucanase, the pullulanase and the AMG - mash in at 82-85 and rest there. Fair chance that might work.

I have also heard that sorghum brewers in Africa are having luck producing beers using only pullulanase - it seems to give a decent balance of fermentable vs non when used in isolation - but you would want to do a bit of googling before you took my word on that.Or try it out if you are feeling adventurous. Thats what I will be doing with my next enzyme brew. Pullulanase only. I let you know how it goes.

Wait for Millet Man though... I am well and truly pulling stuff out of my bum on this topic.

TB


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## coeliacsurvivor (13/11/09)

Thanks TB,

I haven't actually got the enzymes yet, and I am hoping there will be some info with the packaging.

From what I can find online they are all produced with either bacteria or fungi and are 'extremely' heat stable. I think your idea of mashing in at 43 and then slowly raising to a 72 rest and then up to 85 would work.

What do you think about doing 5L brews in a 30L fermenter? I have 3 of these 30L barrels so can have 3 experiments at once, or I could go out and buy some smaller barrels.

Cheers

Colm


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## raven19 (13/11/09)

coeliacsurvivor said:


> What do you think about doing 5L brews in a 30L fermenter? I have 3 of these 30L barrels so can have 3 experiments at once, or I could go out and buy some smaller barrels.



If you are pitching with an active yeast starter, extra headspace wont hurt.

With proper santiation, I dont see an issue regardless actually.

No point in buying more fermentors imo, buy more enzymes!

Good luck with it. :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy (13/11/09)

You'll most likely be using dried yeast (GF) and a starter will be a bit pointless (not to mention hard to do GF) - but I still doubt you will have an issue. O2 isn't an issue until after fermentation starts, and after that its all being driven off by the C02 produced. Just consider them to be "open" fermenters that happen to have a lid on them and your mind will rest easy.

Let us know the details of those enzymes when they arrive

Cheers

TB


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## coeliacsurvivor (16/11/09)

The enzymes have arrived, but there is no additional info with them regarding the optimal temps etc.

So I guess it's time for a little experimentation, which is where the fun really lies anyway.

Here is what I plan on doing (thanks to Thirsty Boy)

1/2 kg millet grain (not sure on roasting plan yet but will be ~ 30min at 150C and 30min at 200C)
1/2 kg sorghum syrup

Crush grain and mix with 1.0 lt water, mash in at 43C (beta glucanase activity) and add 1mL each of pullulanase, beta-glucanase, alpha-amylase, gluco-amylase (AMG), and protease.
Immediately start raising the temp, rising through the protease activity range, till I get to 70 or 72C.
30min rest to give Alpha amylase a chance to play (the AMG and pullulanase will be working by now too) slowly raise it to 85C and 30min rest to finish off conversion.

I will probably do an iodine test to check for conversion, as this will also give me an idea of the amount of enyme I need to add.

Then lauter and sparge to 5L, and continue as normal adding the 1/2kg of sorghum syrup to the kettle.

I am hoping that by using whole grain I won't have a problem with stuck sparge like TB did with the flour, but just in case I will probably do this through a rough gauze first then something more like t-shirt material.

I still have some fuggles left over from a brown ale I did so I will probably use that with an ale yeast.

This is in the pipeline for tomorrow night all going well.


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## Thirsty Boy (17/11/09)

Only a couple of things really - I'd mash with 1.5-2.0L of water - 1L will give you only 2L/kg and thats ate the very low end, in my experience the millet absorbs a lot of water and I'd even say that 3:1 (or 1.5L in your mash) might give you too little liquid. BUT - I have only done it a few times... so I'm far from sure.

And remember to stir during your ramps of you will scorch your mash.

Have fun, hope it works well for you - I know it will work, so from here on in its just a matter of experimenting till you make it go.

Cheers

TB


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## Millet Man (17/11/09)

Colm,

Looks good and the only things I would change would be as follows:


Use 2 lt of mash water as TB suggested, with my mashes I would mash in at least 2.3:1 but with infusions would end up with 4:1 for the conversion rest.
Millet should gelatinise in the 75-80C range, you can see the colour and consistentcy change when it does, so 85C would be your max temp.
Don't put the AMG in with the other enzymes, after the 85C rest cool the mash to 60C and then put the AMG in for a 1-2 hr rest.
The AMG will work better if the mash has already been converted to dextrins.
Will such a small mash it will be difficult to get a clear runoff from my experience so you may just have to accept that the wort will be a bit cloudy.
Have fun!

Cheers, Andrew.


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## coeliacsurvivor (17/11/09)

Looking forward to it already.

Thanks for your advice TB and Andrew. 

One question, if I don't have time to do the boil straight after the mash, can I store the lautered mix overnight? should this be in the fridge?


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## Thirsty Boy (17/11/09)

Millet Man said:


> Colm,
> 
> Looks good and the only things I would change would be as follows:
> 
> ...



How come the AMG at the end Andrew? the AMG should be heat stable to 85 and at its maximum activity at 80-85 ?? and if you have it in the whole mash wouldn't that mean that you needed a shorter rest at the end?

Or maybe it depends on which AMG you get - the stuff I have is AMG 300L from novozymes - or do I have it arse about? Maybe the stuff isn't heat stable at all? I'll try to find out why I think it is.


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## coeliacsurvivor (19/11/09)

I haven't gotten around to doing this yet, the roasted grain is in paper bags at the moment.

TB I have been looking around for info on the optimal temp for the AMG 300L, and found a couple of sites,

http://www.biotimes.com/en/Articles/2005/J...ovesstarch.aspx

This one compares this enzyme with another 'better' one and states that it has a higher optimal temp than AMG 300L at 65-70C.

However this site
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=KA1sLFi...ved=0CB4Q6AEwBA#

states that AMG is very heat stable and can survive pasteurisation.

I think I will follow Andrews advice and reduce the temp to 60C before I add the AMG, just to be on the safe side.


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## Millet Man (19/11/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> How come the AMG at the end Andrew? the AMG should be heat stable to 85 and at its maximum activity at 80-85 ?? and if you have it in the whole mash wouldn't that mean that you needed a shorter rest at the end?
> 
> Or maybe it depends on which AMG you get - the stuff I have is AMG 300L from novozymes - or do I have it arse about? Maybe the stuff isn't heat stable at all? I'll try to find out why I think it is.


TB,

The AMG I have had in the past (don't use it anymore) was optimum around 60C IIRC, the alpha amylase I used was optimum at 85C. This is why I would do protein rest, then raise to 85C to convert, and then cool down for the AMG. The boil then kills off all the enzymes.

If you leave the wort for a while before boiling the AMG will keep working and make the beer drier.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Thirsty Boy (19/11/09)

Yep - thats why I said you should wait for Andrew.

Me speaky through bottomy.

A bit of Googling and a chat with the development brewer at work - and it's (AMG 300L) optimum temp is indeed 60C - The Promozyme Pullulanase is the heat stable one as are the alpha amylases like Thermamyl.

That second article is about adding the stuff to the fermenter.. where the maximum temp it experiences will be much lower than in a GF mash. It isn't ever boiled and is stable enough to maybe retain a little activity through a pasturiser.

Listen to Andrew - listen to me less, I don't know what I'm talking about... no really, I don't!!

On the other hand.... Novozymes has a product that might be interesting to you... its called Ceremix Sorghum and is specifically designed for brewing beer from unmalted sorghum and other grains. Might be worth having a chat to them about that.

Thirsty


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## coeliacsurvivor (20/11/09)

The brew is on!

I started trying to crush the grains with a rolling pin, but soon got tired of that, so I stuck them in a blender and pulsed them for about 30 sec.

I warmed the water up to 43C and added the grain and imL of all the enzymes except the AMG 300L.
the temp took about 30mis to rise to 70C and I let it rest there for about 30min. It was pretty hard keeping it at exactly 70-72 but I think I was close enough.
Then inc temp to 85C and rested for another 30min, again hard to keep constant but always 80-85C.

I added about 500mL of cold water to cool it to 60C and added 1mL of the AMG 300L, then let it rest at ~60 for about 2 hours.

After all that I strained it through a layer of muslin and got about 2.2L of muddy wort. see photo.





I then placed four layers of muslin on a kitchen sieve and passed all the wort through the grain again and more water up to 5L total.

photo of my lauter/sparge apparatus.




will post more as the brew progresses 


Lautering is finished - took about an hour.

I took a gravity reading of the 5L and it was 1024. How do I calculate what I expected to get? Should I have run the wort through the grains again to increase the OG?

I have decided not to use my sorghum syrup as it might affect the taste, I would rather find out what the millet tastes like on its own. I have some liquid glucose that I will add instead and a small amount of candi suger SRM-80.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/11/09)

what you should have got depends on the potential of your grain.

Normal malt has a potential of about 1.036-1.037 ppg (points per pound per gallon) and I have been working on millet having a potential of 1.036.

In your case that would mean that 5L of pre-boil wort @ 1.024 from 0.5kg of millet = a mash/lauter efficiency of 80%... which is really quite high. Well done.

Andrew will be able to tell you more accurately what potential you should actually expect from millet grains.. but I'll give you highs and lows.

If the potential is 

1.034ppg - your efficiency was 83%
1.037ppg - your efficiency was 77%

either way... high! You must have gotten nice conversion and had an effective lautering process. Good work.

Adding 20% sugar will give you about a 1.040 post boil gravity with 4.25 of post boil volume & that wil give you about a 4% abv beer.

Cheers

TB


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## SpillsMostOfIt (21/11/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Yep - thats why I said you should wait for Andrew.
> 
> Me speaky through bottomy.
> 
> <SNIP>




On the other hand, I tried a little of Thirsty Boy's GF brewing output last weekend and he is making very good beer. So, bottom-talking may be the answer...


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## coeliacsurvivor (21/11/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> On the other hand, I tried a little of Thirsty Boy's GF brewing output last weekend and he is making very good beer. So, bottom-talking may be the answer...




TB's bottomy talk is still far more intelligent than most peoples mouthy talk!

here is the final recipe for the brew

brought the 5L to a rolling boil;

7g Fuggles, pellet 4.5% (60 min)
65g Dark Candi Sugar (80 SRM) (25min)
265g glucose syrup (25min)
5g East Kent Goldings, pellet 4.8% (15 min)
1/4 tsp Irish Moss (10 min)
1/4 pkg SafAle English Ale (S-04) ~3g

cooled to 22C before pitching yeast.

I had about 3.5L postboil which I topped up to 5L with cold water in the fermenter. Should I do this? or is it better to have sparged with more water and let it boil off?

My OG was 1.047 in the fermenter which is higher than I had expected, I have read elsewhere that brewing with enzymes can cause the beer to ferment out more than normal, down to 1 in some cases, so this could end up ~6%

Smelled like wort and tasted like wort so here's hoping!

If TB's calculations are correct my efficiency was 77-83% I might try this again with less enzymes, try to find the minimum amount I have to use. I will also have a go with some other grains, buckwheat, amaranth, quinoa, and corn.

Thanks for all the advice guys.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/11/09)

coeliacsurvivor said:


> TB's bottomy talk is still far more intelligent than most peoples mouthy talk!
> 
> here is the final recipe for the brew
> 
> ...



Topping back up is fine - I usually do it during the boil - drip feeding it water out of the hot tap as it boils off. But thats just being a bit paranoid about sanitation.

You shouldn't get a too fermentable beer strictly from your enzymes - a lot of people who use them put them in the fermenter, where they keep on working basically forever, so they can dry a beer completely out. You are denaturing your enzymes in your boil, so you have control. If your beers are too dry, you just use a little less enzyme, or shorten your sachrification rest time. Visa versa for not dry enough.

Your beer in the other hand... probably will be pretty dry. You have use a lot of simple sugar as compared to grain. So, if you beer ferments like a normal beer - you could expect to get about 75% apparent attenuation out of the grain portion.. and basically 100% attenuation for the sugar portion.

So your beer had a gravity of 1.024 for 5L with only the grain. 75% AA with that would give you an FG of 1.06. Even with the sugar, your FG will still be around 1.06, maybe a little higher. Therefore your final abv will be around 5.2 - 5.3 ish percent.

If the grain based portion of your gravity was either very fermentable, or very unfermentable - that will throw the numbers a little in either direction.

I'd expect the beer to be quite light bodied and a bit thin for its strength. I'd be a little reluctant to use much more than 20% simple sugars for that reason.

But who knows?? this is a first go...so if its drinkable in any way you have done pretty damn well in my book.

TB


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## Millet Man (22/11/09)

Millet is a bit lower in starch content at around 70% compared to barley which is closer to 80%. I have never had lab measurements done but doing small scale EBC standard test for extract (adjusted for decoction mash) I get a potential extract of 1.032. When I mash on a home brew scale using a fly sparging process I get close to 100% efficiency with that number (mash @ 4.0 lt/kg, sparge @4.0 lt/kg) , on a commercial scale with a mash filter press I get 90% efficiency (mash @ 5.7 lt/kg, sparge @ 0.5 lt/kg).

Glad to hear the brew has gone well so far.

Maybe we should start up a thread for recipies?

Cheers, Andrew.



Thirsty Boy said:


> what you should have got depends on the potential of your grain.
> 
> Normal malt has a potential of about 1.036-1.037 ppg (points per pound per gallon) and I have been working on millet having a potential of 1.036.
> 
> ...


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## coeliacsurvivor (26/11/09)

I have just repeated this experiment using 1/2 mL of each enzyme instead of 1mL and I got an OG of 1.021. While this is slightly less than the first batch I think there were some subtle differences in my process, I did not grind the grain as fine as I did the first time which resulted in a much faster sparge, and I was not quite so accurate with my water measurement so I think it was slightly more than 5L.

I am happy to conclude that 1/2mL does pretty much the same job as 1mL. I can't accurately measure less than 1/2mL so I think my next millet experiment will be using 1kg of grain and 1/2mL of enzymes.

I am going to get some buckwheat and try that next. I figure I should work out the efficiency of each grain on its own before I mix them, this should give me more accurate measurements to estimate my expected grravity in the future.


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## coeliacsurvivor (29/11/09)

Tried this today with 1kg of millet (unhulled and unroasted), 4:1 liquid to grain ratio, 1/2mL of each enzyme, and everything else as above.

The OG was 1.010!

Not sure why this was so low, maybe I need more enzyme, there could be a dilution problem with the increase in water. Maybe having so much grain reduces the function of the enzymes in which case I could try a longer mash with longer rests.

I might have to grind the grain a bit finer too, might look at getting a mill rather than my blender.


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## r055c0 (19/2/14)

Sorry for ressurrecting an old thread like this but does anyone know where I can get a supply of the enzymes needed to mash unmalted grains? Myself and a coeliac mate of mine are keen on experimenting.


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## damoninja (19/2/14)

ro55c0 said:


> Sorry for ressurrecting an old thread like this but does anyone know where I can get a supply of the enzymes needed to mash unmalted grains? Myself and a coeliac mate of mine are keen on experimenting.


The enzymes I've seen before contained gluten... 

Have you used sorghum extract? I did one last year and it turned out pretty good. 

I've read about people using unmalted grains, there seems to be a fair debate about it effectiveness, yield and flavour. Not saying it can't be done, I'm far from an expert on the topic. 

Malt your own grains?


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## r055c0 (19/2/14)

I want to skip the malting bit if I can. I didn't realise the enzymes contained gluten, surely there would be gluten free supplies available though, ie GMO / synthetic ones.

I wonder if the White Labs WLN4000 Clarity Ferm would be able to remove any gluten added by the enzymes, given that most of what I have read is saying you only need a few ml of enzyme in the mash for a 20L batch I can't imagine there would be a heap of gluten added.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (19/2/14)

Have a look at Amylase it might be what your after and I think its gluten free


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## r055c0 (19/2/14)

I have a fair idea of what I need, just need to know where to find it  I've done a few google searches but mostly come up with the manufacturers websites, no retail sales options that I've found.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (19/2/14)

Most homebrew stores should carry it I'd just ask, they only have small sachets but at least thats a start

https://nationalhomebrew.com.au/wine/wine-making-ingredients-and-additives/still-spirits-alpha-amylase-enzyme

a word from our sponsers, give that a whirl


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## r055c0 (19/2/14)

You know I didn't even think of looking at them? Clearly I need more coffee.


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## damoninja (19/2/14)

ro55c0 said:


> I want to skip the malting bit if I can. I didn't realise the enzymes contained gluten, surely there would be gluten free supplies available though, ie GMO / synthetic ones.
> 
> I wonder if the White Labs WLN4000 Clarity Ferm would be able to remove any gluten added by the enzymes, given that most of what I have read is saying you only need a few ml of enzyme in the mash for a 20L batch I can't imagine there would be a heap of gluten added.


Gluten reduced perhaps, but isn't that still enough to set off a celiac?

I have 3 friends who have it and they reckon that a trace of a trace is enough...


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## r055c0 (19/2/14)

my understanding is anything containing less than 20ppm is enough to be classified as "gluten free", so even if the whole 4g packet was gluten that would still be a tiny fraction across a 20L brew, even if the entire amount made through the mash and stayed out of the trub and into the fianl product. 

I'm not coeliac myself, will talk to my mate about it and see what he knows.

Need some coeliac lab rats to test on


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## rehabs_for_quitters (19/2/14)

I am not 100% and can't find any info but I have a feeling amylase is gluten free, I will check with a couple of Dr type folks I know and see if they know anything


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## Spiesy (19/2/14)

Hi ro55co,

If you're after WL's Clarity Ferm, we do have it available.

[shameless self-plug, but on topic]


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## r055c0 (19/2/14)

Thanks Spiesy, I saw that in an earlier post, will definitely be putting an order in with you in the near future


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## Spiesy (20/2/14)

Awesome!


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## rehabs_for_quitters (20/2/14)

So apparently amylase is naturally occuring in the human body so if its got gluten in it and your intolerant your in the crapper so it would be safe to assume its GF


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## r055c0 (20/2/14)

I don't think the concern was in the amylase itself having gluten in it, the concern was more around whether or not gluten is used in creating / farming the enzyme and if any of that gluten carried over to the final product. At least thats how I read it.


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## r055c0 (24/2/14)

Just put my order in Spiesy


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## Spiesy (24/2/14)

ro55c0 said:


> Just put my order in Spiesy


Thanks Ro55c0!

Please let me know how it works out for you.


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## r055c0 (24/2/14)

Will do, I've got 2 coeliacs willing to be my lab rats, and will find a few more around the office if I can. I'll be adding it to a kolsch.

If there are any coeliacs in the Dandenong / Cranbourne area that are interested in trying a couple of stubbies let me know


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## MHB (24/2/14)

You are as I know from experience in for a world of trouble, after a couple of years work I got my extraction up to about 60%, according to the experts that wasn't bad.
Couple of things that might help: -
Mill as fine as you can, I'm talking 0.1 mm
Pre-Boil your grist and let it cool, you will need at least 3:1 Water to grist, to gelatinise the sorghum. and then it will set like cold porridge.
Be warned that a lot of Red Sorghum contains an enzyme that that "Poisons" most commercial Amylase, Pacific Buster is on such variety and it’s the most widely grown in Australia - try very hard to White Sorghum.

Each enzyme has a very specific temperature and pH requirement; I ended up doing a 7 step mash with 2 pH adjustments and using Proteases, Glucanase, Alpha and Beta Amylase, and some strange thing that killed the red sorghum anti-amylase.
The best I can say about the project was that it was educational - I learned a lot about enzymes and how finicky they can be, commercial enzymes are very expensive and have a limited shelf life, ultimately it was cheaper and a lot easier to buy commercially made Sorghum syrup.

The endopeptidase in Clarex, won’t help you with extraction, it’s a fascinating enzyme and capable of massively reducing the protein to which coeliacs’ are sensitive, it was developed to smash up protein that can cause haze made filtering beer a PITA and its marvellous at that.

There are people who have a Gluten Intolerance - that is it upsets them, and those with an allergy - gluten can kill them...
Endopeptidase can be a big help to the intolerant, it won’t be good enough for those who are allergic, so just be very careful what you do and who you give your beer to.
Mark


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## r055c0 (24/2/14)

Thanks for the tips Mark, I'll certainly be making sure anyone who participates is fully informed.


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## r055c0 (23/3/14)

Tested a couple of bottles of "maybe gluten free" kolsch on my coeliac mate last night, he reported no ill effects. He tells me if he drinks a stubbie of normal beer he usually can make it all the way through before he gets pains in his stomach. I sent him home with 24 bottles for further testing (to be carried out in front of the telly) and he was pretty excited at the prospect of being able to get back into all grain brewing.

Spiesy I've passed on your details to him, I'm sure he'll be ordering soon.

I've got about 12 bottles left which I'll be handing over to a couple of coeliacs I know, if they like it I'll get them involved in home brewing


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## MHB (23/3/14)

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> So apparently amylase is naturally occuring in the human body so if its got gluten in it and your intolerant your in the crapper so it would be safe to assume its GF


Meh - not quite, Amylase is a family of enzymes that chop up starch, we have an Amylase in our saliva it does a very similar job to that found in malt but is in fact a very different enzyme, for one it’s very active at around 37oC (body heat).
Most of the commercial enzymes are cropped from bacteria and are different again.
That 20ppm is the American standard, in Australia to be classed as gluten free there must be no detectable response to an allergen test, it’s a much harder test and the answer is a yes/no not a quantity.
Mark


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## Spiesy (23/3/14)

ro55c0 said:


> Tested a couple of bottles of "maybe gluten free" kolsch on my coeliac mate last night, he reported no ill effects. He tells me if he drinks a stubbie of normal beer he usually can make it all the way through before he gets pains in his stomach. I sent him home with 24 bottles for further testing (to be carried out in front of the telly) and he was pretty excited at the prospect of being able to get back into all grain brewing.
> 
> Spiesy I've passed on your details to him, I'm sure he'll be ordering soon.
> 
> I've got about 12 bottles left which I'll be handing over to a couple of coeliacs I know, if they like it I'll get them involved in home brewing


Awesome! Thanks for the update.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (23/3/14)

MHB said:


> Meh - not quite, Amylase is a family of enzymes that chop up starch, we have an Amylase in our saliva it does a very similar job to that found in malt but is in fact a very different enzyme, for one it’s very active at around 37oC (body heat).
> Most of the commercial enzymes are cropped from bacteria and are different again.
> That 20ppm is the American standard, in Australia to be classed as gluten free there must be no detectable response to an allergen test, it’s a much harder test and the answer is a yes/no not a quantity.
> Mark


Thanks for that info Mark.
is that why the Peruvians chew corn to make chicha then?
I was talking to a scientisty chap and he mentioned that most commercial amylase is actually synthetic do you know if thats correct at all?


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## damoninja (24/3/14)

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> Thanks for that info Mark.
> is that why the Peruvians chew corn to make chicha then?
> I was talking to a scientisty chap and he mentioned that most commercial amylase is actually synthetic do you know if thats correct at all?


Bingo - however the corn can be germinated and malted to produce the enzymes...


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## wynnum1 (24/3/14)

What about the malt flavor when the barley is put in the kiln enzymes can convert but is more needed.


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## MHB (24/3/14)

As far as I know all enzymes used in brewing (and the rest of the food industry) are cropped from bacteria or extracted from food products, there are lots of enzymes used in stuff like laundry powder and where they come from I have no idea, but then they don't have to be food grade or approved for use in food so anything is possible

Corn is an interesting one, I'm sure it has Amylase in some form, the problem from what I have read is that the gelatinisation temperature is higher than the temperature at which the enzymes get denatured - in barley its lower so that makes mashing easy - It isn't a subject I have payed much attention to as my interest in putting corn in beer approaches zero and I loath Bourbon. So my knowledge on malting maze is pretty sketchy.

Mind you if the best way to make beer was by chewing the corn, I reckon home brewing would be pretty strong, someone else's spitting in my beer isn't usually regarded as a complement.

I thought I remembered an article in BYO that talked about malting maize a quick Google found it, not specifically on malting maze but that gets a mention
Mark


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## r055c0 (7/4/14)

Had some more positive feedback on the "maybe gluten free" kolsch from another coeliac last night, he had 4 375ml stubbies and no ill effects (and was very complimentary about the taste  ), looks like he'll be an easy convert to the home brewing world.

I've got 2 more testers lined up, will post[SIZE=10.5pt] their [/SIZE]feedback once they've had a go, but it looks really good so far, I'd say it's definetly worth a try for coeliacs who want to get back into beer (but maybe do a small batch first...)

A note on the clarity, after all that is the main function of Clarity Ferm, the kolsch came out crystal clear, I thought I had brewed clear beers in the past but this almost put the water coming out of my tap to shame. If you're after clear beers then this is absolutley worth a go.


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