# Expensive Microbrew Beer



## Spartan 117 (9/8/09)

Hey Guy's 

Just wondering how many here are annoyed at the price of craft beers, a few im sure. However, my usual bottle shop is somewhat cheeper that the big wigs. I went to buy a friend of mine some craft brews as himself and his other half came over for dinner last night. So i decided to buy a few singles for him to try, I stoped off to a liquorland on the way home from work and was shocked at the price they where charging for beer. Little Creatures for a single bottle was about $4.50 and Beez Kneez was about $4. 

So yeah I reckon if you know of a place that sells craft beers at a reasonable price post it up and show support. 

D'amore cellars in lalor north melbourne sells craft beers in and around the $18 mark and from memory singles are about $3, so if you live in the area give them a go. 

Cheers 

Aaron 

PS. No affiliation or anything like that jsut reckon good quality local beers shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.


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## Effect (9/8/09)

buying singles of any beer is quite expensive...I think even mega swill beer is about $3 to $4 a bottle bought individually.

For me, $16 - $20 for a six pack of Micro beer is fine, as is $80 for a carton.

Anything under that and I think the quality will go down as well...anything over that, well, you could probably find it cheaper somewhere else.

As for cheap craft brewed beer...Dan Murphy's is where I would first go. After that I would try and buy directly from the brewery (only if they are close-ish) - like lobethal bierhaus and steam exchange are for me...both $80 a carton beers.


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## Adamt (9/8/09)

http://www.fairgocraftbeer.com.au/

Basically, small breweries (often offering higher quality products and greater variety) cannot afford to operate at the same small profit margins as the big breweries. "Boutique" wineries in Australia get partial excise exemption to promote the wine industry and it is proposed that craft breweries in Australia should get similar excise exemption in order to allow craft breweries to actually compete with the big guys.


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## haysie (9/8/09)

For choice you cant beat Murphy`s for mine, although the fridge at Grain and Grape and The Brewers Den holds some beauties, Du Pont for one.

A stubbie of Fosters these days is $3.00, now thats a rip-off!


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## eamonnfoley (9/8/09)

Phillip said:


> buying singles of any beer is quite expensive...I think even mega swill beer is about $3 to $4 a bottle bought individually.
> 
> For me, $16 - $20 for a six pack of Micro beer is fine, as is $80 for a carton.
> 
> ...



what about the all too common 4 pack of 330ml for $20+ ?? no wonder nobody will buy them.


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## saccarin63 (9/8/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> Hey Guy's
> 
> Just wondering how many here are annoyed at the price of craft beers, a few im sure. However, my usual bottle shop is somewhat cheeper that the big wigs. I went to buy a friend of mine some craft brews as himself and his other half came over for dinner last night. So i decided to buy a few singles for him to try, I stoped off to a liquorland on the way home from work and was shocked at the price they where charging for beer. Little Creatures for a single bottle was about $4.50 and Beez Kneez was about $4.
> 
> ...


good point mate, but until the excise tax is dropped the small brews will allways be up there in price. we run a small micro in rosanna and if you see the time and effort we put into making 400lts , labeling and packaging then i think you would understand. :icon_chickcheers:


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## Spartan 117 (9/8/09)

foles said:


> what about the all too common 4 pack of 330ml for $20+ ?? no wonder nobody will buy them.




well thats part of my point who wants to buy expensive beers. Lets face it not many people are gonna go out on a hunch and buy a 6 pack of beer that they've never tried before (unless you're a 16 year old who just wants to get pissed lol) so that's one reason i buy singles to try before i buy in a sence. 

Aaron


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## Spartan 117 (9/8/09)

mickey eyes said:


> good point mate, but until the excise tax is dropped the small brews will allways be up there in price. we run a small micro in rosanna and if you see the time and effort we put into making 400lts , labeling and packaging then i think you would understand. :icon_chickcheers:




Of course, I'm by no means putting the blame on the brewer at all, its that I just can't see the reason why big companies will charge more for a bottle of beer than the independant/semi independant bottle shops. 

Aaron


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## manticle (9/8/09)

Melville road cellars has a great range of beer at good prices. Tiny little grocery/liquor shop but for some reason loads of beer at prices comparable to DM's.

Cnr Melville Rd and Hope Street West Brunswick (VIC)

Everything from Erdinger (dunkel, dunkel weizen, weizen) Kozel, Schofferhoffer (hefe and kristal), Chimay (blue only), Orval, st Arnoud, James Squire, Coopers (Pale, Sparkling and Stout incl longnecks), Duvel, Kilkenny, guiness, Boddington's, Grand Ridge (I think) Monteith's, Little Creatures, Matilda Bay and on the other end of the scale they also have funny beers with pictures of breasts on the label, tui, Melbourne, Fosters, Boags, VB and others I've forgotten.

They also stock a reasonable array of ciders (strongbow, Mercury, Three Oaks, possibly pipsqueak) for such a little shop


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## Wortgames (9/8/09)

Phillip said:


> For me, $16 - $20 for a six pack of Micro beer is fine, as is $80 for a carton.



I disagree - I pay it occasionally but I spit chips every time.

For that sort of money I could buy some of the world's finest beers, brewed in their country of origin with the finest malt, barley and water for the style. Why on earth should I spend exactly the same dollars on some tossy 'microbrew', brewed around the corner using the same bloody tap water I use and CHEAPER malt and hops (pellets usually) than what I use in my own beers?

Perhaps it's not a cool attitude for a 'home microbrewer' to hold but I really feel that somebody's taking the piss sometimes.


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## Sammus (9/8/09)

I reckon you're mad to complain about it - these micros are struggling to hold themselves in this market, and paying an extra couple bucks for a 6er of LCPA over VB? well, I certainly dont mind at all. the big wigs would still be making a shiteload more profit even though there product is cheaper.


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## Spartan 117 (9/8/09)

Sammus said:


> I reckon your mad to complain about it - these micros are struggling to hold themselves in this market, and paying an extra couple bucks for a 6er of LCPA over VB? well, I certainly dont mind at all. the big wigs would still be making a shiteload more profit even though there product is cheaper.



I'm not talking about the larger breweries I'm talking abou the large chains of bottle shops that sell craft beer at outragous prices with respect to your smaller bottle shops, I don't think many people would complain that the smaller brweries have to charge more for their beer when selling it to a bottle shop or whatever but that the place the average consumer buys it from charge throught hte teeth. 


Aaron


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## Bribie G (9/8/09)

I've only had access to Dan's for a couple of months and I'm amazed at the range of individual 500ml bottles of Euro beers from the Czech Republic, Poland, Russia, Ukraine... and all at below $4 at the moment. That's nearly a pint - it's a scandal about the excise on our local craft breweries, not that the wowser lesbian whale huggers care. However surely the employment and 'home grown' aspect should count for something. A carton of craft 330s is 8 litres so even buying singles of Euros that works out at around $60 for the equivalent amount of beer, and shipped around the planet at that.

And although it's not 'craft' I bought an Oettinger for $30 brewed to Reinheitsgebod and just as bloody nice as a Blue Tongue or a Bondi Blonde IMHO.


:icon_offtopic: Hey wortgames, rumour has it that you originally posted that incredible beer conversion chart PDF thingo. If so then thanks, best thing I've seen for ages. Any chance of putting up a thread to distribute it to the 'new' generation of people like myself on the forum?? :icon_cheers:


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## Sammus (9/8/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> I'm not talking about the larger breweries I'm talking abou the large chains of bottle shops that sell craft beer at outragous prices with respect to your smaller bottle shops, I don't think many people would complain that the smaller brweries have to charge more for their beer when selling it to a bottle shop or whatever but that the place the average consumer buys it from charge throught hte teeth.
> 
> 
> Aaron



yeah fair call, but dans or 1st choice are the cheapest ive seen, also are big chains. Any other bottle shop I've been into, small privately owned ones as well as chains like bottlemart or liquorland or BWS want to charge $23 or so instead of $18 for a 6 pack of LCPA for example which is a little bit lame. Like fair enough the small private business ones are always a bit more exxy not having the buying power of the big guys, but places like liquorland etc i think should be able to compete with places like dans easily...


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## saccarin63 (9/8/09)

BribieG said:


> I've only had access to Dan's for a couple of months and I'm amazed at the range of individual 500ml bottles of Euro beers from the Czech Republic, Poland, Russia, Ukraine... and all at below $4 at the moment. That's nearly a pint - it's a scandal about the excise on our local craft breweries, not that the wowser lesbian whale huggers care. However surely the employment and 'home grown' aspect should count for something. A carton of craft 330s is 8 litres so even buying singles of Euros that works out at around $60 for the equivalent amount of beer, and shipped around the planet at that.
> 
> And although it's not 'craft' I bought an Oettinger for $30 brewed to Reinheitsgebod and just as bloody nice as a Blue Tongue or a Bondi Blonde IMHO.
> 
> ...


explain yourself on the scandel on excise for local craft beers


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## Adamt (9/8/09)

Mickey: Follow the link I posted earlier in the thread, that has plenty of info regarding craft beer excise.


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## saccarin63 (9/8/09)

Adamt said:


> Mickey: Follow the link I posted earlier in the thread, that has plenty of info regarding craft beer excise.


go back to post 6. i know mate :icon_chickcheers:


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## Adamt (9/8/09)

Ahh goodo!


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## saccarin63 (9/8/09)

WortGames said:


> I disagree - I pay it occasionally but I spit chips every time.
> 
> For that sort of money I could buy some of the world's finest beers, brewed in their country of origin with the finest malt, barley and water for the style. Why on earth should I spend exactly the same dollars on some tossy 'microbrew', brewed around the corner using the same bloody tap water I use and CHEAPER malt and hops (pellets usually) than what I use in my own beers?
> 
> Perhaps it's not a cool attitude for a 'home microbrewer' to hold but I really feel that somebody's taking the piss sometimes.


whos taking the piss, the bottle shops or the micros. as far as water goes we have the best. and dont get sucked in by the labels saying the finest malt,barley. we have access to all types of malt from around the world, all the best hops, and all micros r not tossers. of course the prices would be slightly cheaper than what you would buy because we r in the trade. we r only small wortgames and we cant help our prices being a little higher than overseas beers. get the goverment to drop excise and things might change. back the small micro mate dont bag us. :icon_chickcheers:


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## beersom (9/8/09)

WortGames said:


> I disagree - I pay it occasionally but I spit chips every time.
> 
> For that sort of money I could buy some of the world's finest beers, brewed in their country of origin with the finest malt, barley and water for the style. Why on earth should I spend exactly the same dollars on some tossy 'microbrew', brewed around the corner using the same bloody tap water I use and CHEAPER malt and hops (pellets usually) than what I use in my own beers?
> 
> Perhaps it's not a cool attitude for a 'home microbrewer' to hold but I really feel that somebody's taking the piss sometimes.




You have NO idea......


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## lczaban (9/8/09)

WortGames said:


> I disagree - I pay it occasionally but I spit chips every time.
> 
> For that sort of money I could buy some of the world's finest beers, brewed in their country of origin with the finest malt, barley and water for the style. Why on earth should I spend exactly the same dollars on some tossy 'microbrew', brewed around the corner using the same bloody tap water I use and CHEAPER malt and hops (pellets usually) than what I use in my own beers?
> 
> Perhaps it's not a cool attitude for a 'home microbrewer' to hold but I really feel that somebody's taking the piss sometimes.



+1 on Beersom's comment as well - I think a field trip to one of these "tossy microbreweries" is in order to educate yourself about what goes into making the beers you see on the shelves of your local micro-brew supplier. The breweries I have been to here in SE Qld are very fussy about the processes which are used in brewing their beers and IMHO it shows in the quality of the result. The prices are fair and reasonable given the small quantities brewed, the amount of effort that goes into the brewing/packaging/marketing and the unfairness in the way that the government handles the taxation of beers brewed on a small scale.

I'd also love to know which world-class beers you buy for comparible/cheaper prices than their Aussie counterparts...

My 2c


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## Ross (9/8/09)

BribieG said:


> :icon_offtopic: Hey wortgames, rumour has it that you originally posted that incredible beer conversion chart PDF thingo. If so then thanks, best thing I've seen for ages. Any chance of putting up a thread to distribute it to the 'new' generation of people like myself on the forum?? :icon_cheers:



:icon_offtopic: 
Hey Bribie - It's in the wiki under how to balance a draft system http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=24

It's the chart I've always used - brilliantly put together

cheers Ross


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## mr_tyreman (9/8/09)

bit OT but i paid $105 for a box of O'Briens gluten free beer....oh how nice was it for the bottle shop attendant to knock 10 bucks off the price....


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## manticle (9/8/09)

> So yeah I reckon if you know of a place that sells craft beers at a reasonable price post it up and show support.



Original thread topic suggestion was this rather than ' gee I hate paying lots of money'.

If you buy boutique beer for a good price as opposed to a rip-off price (blame the retailer, not the brewer) than WHERE do you get it?

That's how I read the OP and it would save all this silly arguing about excises and big chains and such. If it's too pricey for you learn to brew it or buy it somewhere else or buy cheaper beer.


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## chappo1970 (9/8/09)

manticle said:


> Original thread topic suggestion was this rather than ' gee I hate paying lots of money'.
> 
> If you buy boutique beer for a good price as opposed to a rip-off price (blame the retailer, not the brewer) than WHERE do you get it?
> 
> That's how I read the OP and it would save all this silly arguing about excises and big chains and such. If it's too pricey for you learn to brew it or buy it somewhere else or buy cheaper beer.




Who's a little grumpy wumpy then?  

Chappo


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## manticle (9/8/09)

Just had my worst brewing weekend ever so maybe me?

First all brew infection and my attempted all apple cider went wrong in every which way possible (melted my girlfriend's juicer, damaged my friend's food processor, extracted half the amount of juice I should have and had to add 12 L of ALDI to what should have been my first all apple) AND I PUT MY LEFT SHOE ON MY RIGHT FOOT!!

OF COURSE I'M A GRUMPY WUMPY.

Also I'm out of brew and having to drink cleanskin wine and other things.


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## chappo1970 (9/8/09)

manticle said:


> Just had my worst brewing weekend ever so maybe me?
> 
> First all brew infection and my attempted all apple cider went wrong in every which way possible (melted my girlfriend's juicer, damaged my friend's food processor, extracted half the amount of juice I should have and had to add 12 L of ALDI to what should have been my first all apple) AND I PUT MY LEFT SHOE ON MY RIGHT FOOT!!
> 
> ...




 
Bloody hell manticle! Better have another glass or three! Glad I'm not inyour house hold tonight!

Cheers and Beers GUMPY BUM!

Chappo :icon_cheers:


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## Gavo (9/8/09)

Chappo said:


> Bloody hell manticle! Better have another glass or three!



Yeah but he's got nothing good to drink.

Back on topic, kinda. I would think that for a good beer you would probably expect to pay extra. I have no such choice here but usually, when in the big smoke go to Dan Murphy. Last time I was at the Underwood shop and they had Chimay Blue Reserve for $17 for a 750ml bottle.


Cheers
Gavo.


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## Spartan 117 (9/8/09)

Gavo said:


> Yeah but he's got nothing good to drink.
> 
> Back on topic, kinda. I would think that for a good beer you would probably expect to pay extra. I have no such choice here but usually, when in the big smoke go to Dan Murphy. Last time I was at the Underwood shop and they had Chimay Blue Reserve for $17 for a 750ml bottle.
> 
> ...



yeah true, but i just don't reckon that retailers (not all but some) should charge so much that no wonder people don't buy micro brews. Again to all who think I'm putting blame on the brewers I'M NOT!!! I'm blaming retailers that charge eccesive amounts for our local produce and I think that as well as supporting the brewers we should support the bottle shops that choose not to charge outrageous ammounts for a nice beer. 

Aaron


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## lczaban (9/8/09)

manticle said:


> Just had my worst brewing weekend ever so maybe me?
> 
> First all brew infection and my attempted all apple cider went wrong in every which way possible (melted my girlfriend's juicer, damaged my friend's food processor, extracted half the amount of juice I should have and had to add 12 L of ALDI to what should have been my first all apple) AND I PUT MY LEFT SHOE ON MY RIGHT FOOT!!
> 
> ...



Goddamn! Sucks to be you for sure... :blink: Hopefully it won't be too long before you are drinking the fruits of your labours again Manticle... :beerbang:


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## manticle (9/8/09)

GravityGuru said:


> Goddamn! Sucks to be you for sure... :blink: Hopefully it won't be too long before you are drinking the fruits of your labours again Manticle... :beerbang:



Fortunately the brew in question is not either of my recently posted AG brews which both taste fine - one racked to secondary today and the other began cold conditioning. If they end up OK I'll be a happy camper soonish.


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## drtomc (9/8/09)

haysie said:


> For choice you cant beat Murphy`s for mine, although the fridge at Grain and Grape and The Brewers Den holds some beauties, Du Pont for one.



I found Dupont at the Swords place in the Vic Market. More convenient than Yarraville, for me at least. Mind you, they don't sell grain, or hops, and the yeast they sell is not directly pitchable.  

T.


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## Back Yard Brewer (9/8/09)

haysie said:


> A stubbie of Fosters these days is $3.00, now thats a rip-off!




:icon_vomit: :icon_vomit: 

But I do pay only $3.50 for a single of LC :beerbang: 

BYB


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## Count Vorlauf (9/8/09)

If you get your hands on a price list from a distributor, you'll find most craft breweries are wholesaling their beer at the 50-60$/slab mark (ex GST). Anything above that covers the retailer's costs. Fortunately we aren't as tied down here as the yanks are with a 3-tier system (see "Beer Wars") so you can usually buy directly from the brewery. That has got to be the best price going.


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## bum (9/8/09)

Count Vorlauf said:


> Fortunately we aren't as tied down here as the yanks are with a 3-tier system (see "Beer Wars")



:icon_offtopic: I'd recommend looking it up online instead. Dreadful film. DREADFUL!


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## pbrosnan (9/8/09)

bum said:


> :icon_offtopic: I'd recommend looking it up online instead. Dreadful film. DREADFUL!


 :icon_offtopic: Actually it's quite good ...


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## bum (9/8/09)

Your first documentary?


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## HoppingMad (10/8/09)

Just got Beer Wars and was looking forward to watching it - you fellas have me nervous now!

My faves for craft beer are - 

Stock Cheapies: 
Dan Murphy's
First Choice
IGA Liquor (The one on St Georges Rd, Nth Fitzroy pulls up a few surprises)
Liquorland (some of them have surprised me from time to time)

Cheapie imports:
Mediterranean Wholesalers Sydney Rd Coburg (Anything Italian beerwise is low here)
Asian Grocer CBD Russell st 4-6 doors along from hungry jacks (the one on the cnr of Bourke St). Real asian beer, not brewed under license shite.

Regular Haunts for the good stuff and huge range of craft and import:
Purvis Cellars, Cnr Union Rd & Whitehorse Rd, Surrey Hills (20% discounts on 6 stubbies quite often)
Purvis Cellars
Acland Cellars, Acland St KildaAcland Cellars (Quite often have case specials up the front)
King & Godfree, Lygon St Carlton. (Just some darn good beer - not that many specials but you never know)

Hopper.


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## Millet Man (10/8/09)

mr_tyreman said:


> bit OT but i paid $105 for a box of O'Briens gluten free beer....oh how nice was it for the bottle shop attendant to knock 10 bucks off the price....


Most of our retailers have it for $80-85 so maybe shop around a bit, if you come to the brewery you can get it for $68!

Genuine micro's are competitive with the likes of LC, Matilda Bay and JS who are in the $18-23 per 6-pack range at my local Dan Murphys. Most of the other bottle shops around here only stock mainstream craft beer and the best priced would probably be the IGA liquor stores.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Wortgames (10/8/09)

BribieG said:


> Hey wortgames, rumour has it that you originally posted that incredible beer conversion chart PDF thingo. If so then thanks, best thing I've seen for ages. Any chance of putting up a thread to distribute it to the 'new' generation of people like myself on the forum?? :icon_cheers:


No worries BribieG, glad it's found some use. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I've posted a new thread as suggested, you're probably right that there are now a new generation of brewers who would use it if they had it.
:beer: 




mickey eyes said:


> whos taking the piss, the bottle shops or the micros. as far as water goes we have the best. and dont get sucked in by the labels saying the finest malt,barley. we have access to all types of malt from around the world, all the best hops, and all micros r not tossers. of course the prices would be slightly cheaper than what you would buy because we r in the trade. we r only small wortgames and we cant help our prices being a little higher than overseas beers. get the goverment to drop excise and things might change. back the small micro mate dont bag us. :icon_chickcheers:



Hi Mickey, you're right it was probably an unfair swipe but it does piss me off a bit. I'm not in the trade so it is not for me to say whether it is the microbrewery, the retailer or the government that is taking the piss, all I know is that for some absurd reason I pay the same for a 'commercial homebrew' from round the corner as I pay for the world's legendary beers shipped half way round the planet. Go figure. I also have a completely irrational hatred of hop pellets, and it really gets my goat to do a microbrewery tour where some bloke presents a schooner full of effing pellets and tells the crowd that this is what hops look like. It isn't. Hops are beautiful, delicate flowers that come from a field, not a rat turd full of bastardised powder that comes from a factory. Whether it makes any difference to the taste I don't really care, it's more a philosophy about treating your ingredients with respect, using the whole natural ingredient and not just the part that some factory tells you is the bit you need. Brewing beer isn't about convenience. What's next, using DME instead of 'whole malt' because it's 'more convenient'? Exactly what is it we're paying for if breweries won't do anything 'inconvenient'? Grrr...

I haven't sampled much microbrew of late I have to confess (not since the microbrewery showcase of maybe 2007?) , so if yours is a really special beer that I couldn't brew myself and you use the best (rather than the most 'economically realistic') ingredients then hats off to you and maybe I should shut up and buy some. But I got a bit sick of paying top dollar for slabs of essentially homebrew that are merely a COPY of the world's great styles, using cheaper varieties of malt to do it than I would buy, and bloody pellet hops that I won't touch with a pole in my own brewery. If I'm going to spend the best part of $100 a slab I'd rather buy, I don't know, Pilsner Urquell or Guinness or Boddingtons or Kozel or Newcastle Brown or Gosser or some other beer that I know I'd have trouble emulating myself and which probably AREN'T brewed with rat turds. Better yet spend 'not that much' more and get a bloody Trappist or something really special that offers a spiritual experience and makes me glad to be alive.

I'm not anti-microbrew by any stretch but I feel like we're being asked to pay too much for it, and there are a few designer tossbags popping up peddling particularly crappy instant powderbrau spoiling the scene for the good ones.

FWIW I really, REALLY enjoyed LCPA when it first appeared in Victoria but even that doesn't get me so excited any more. Whether it's changed or whether I've just become a miserable git I don't know.

In fact I'm pretty sure I'm just a miserable git, so ignore me


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## gibbocore (10/8/09)

geeez mate, ever thought of making your own beer?


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## jimi (10/8/09)

WortGames said:


> No worries BribieG, glad it's found some use. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I've posted a new thread as suggested, you're probably right that there are now a new generation of brewers who would use it if they had it.
> :beer:
> 
> 
> ...



:icon_offtopic: I'm glad you acknowledged that your fear of pellets was "completely irrational" h34r:


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## Sydneybrewer (10/8/09)

BribieG said:


> And although it's not 'craft' I bought an Oettinger for $30 brewed to Reinheitsgebod and just as bloody nice as a Blue Tongue or a Bondi Blonde IMHO.



believe it or not i brought 2 cartons of Oettinger fir $30 from my local liqourland thats $15 each unheard of for any beer i quizzed the clerk and he said they weren't selling at all so they needed to offload them, i didnt mind them at all either went back to pick some more up and all sold out was spewing.


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## drtomc (11/8/09)

Hey WG, that's the best rant I've read all week. 

Hate to disappoint you, but you are aware aren't you that more than one of the trappists use hop extract.  

T.


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## bconnery (11/8/09)

Mate if you think Guinness or Boddingtons or Kozel or Newcastle Brown aren't brewed with "rat turds" you are in for dissapointment...
In fact I'd guess that at least one of those may no longer contain any "real", by your standards, hops at all. 

Pellets are hops. Just because they've compressed the ingredient doesn't make it any less natural...


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## Wortgames (11/8/09)

bconnery said:


> Pellets are hops. Just because they've compressed the ingredient doesn't make it any less natural...


Nope. If you compress hops you get plugs. To get pellets you have to remove quite a lot of what brewers traditionally included when they added hops. So what if the factory tell us those bits aren't important - I don't care, I want them anyway.

I don't see the attraction at all. How inconvenient are real hops for goodness sake? They are a pleasure to use and if you set up your kettle with a false bottom they make a perfect filter bed. Pellets on the other hand, form a vile sludge and it is an indignity to the plant that we are supposed to regard so highly.

Perhaps AHB should change it's banner graphic to get rid of those pesky hop flowers, what we want to see are some nice convenient rat turds right?

And while we're at it, let's forget this ridiculous 'mashing' business, did you know you can get malt in a nice convenient powder?


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## gibbocore (11/8/09)

WortGames said:


> How inconvenient are real hops for goodness sake?



they're double the size for one. So they're probably double the shipping cost.


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## bum (11/8/09)

WortGames said:


> And while we're at it, let's forget this ridiculous 'mashing' business, did you know you can get malt in a nice convenient powder?



This analogy points more towards isohops than pellets.

I'm sure everyone here has at least tasted a beer that was made in part with extract and pellets and enjoyed it. What is the point of laying down dogma to eliminate options? Don't want to use them? Absolutely understandable. It gets less understandable when you start questioning other people's practises. You've basically told about 90% of people here they aren't making real beer.


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## petesbrew (11/8/09)

gibbocore said:


> geeez mate, ever thought of making your own beer?


+1

Case of belgian beer = $130.
2 cases of homebrewed belgian beer = $20-30.

Dan murphy's there ready for my education, one bottle of expensive beer at a time. Hell yeah single bottles are pricey, if only we could write it off on tax.


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## eric8 (11/8/09)

Doesn't the AA in pellets last longer than in flowers when stored? Don't forget that those lovely whole flowers also suck upo a bit more of that lovely wort that you are making. I use both and love them equally as much, and that vile sludge at the bottom of your kettle can be minimised by using a false bottom or bb hopscreen.


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## HoppingMad (11/8/09)

gibbocore said:


> they're double the size for one. So they're probably double the shipping cost.



And warehousing space. Of the last three Vic microbrewers I've spoken to (two metro one regional), not one uses hop flowers, except when they dabble with occaisional limited 'seasonal' brews. One look at a bunch of 'bales' of hops would explain why. The stuff can take up a bit of space. 

Red Hill Brewery is an exception of course as they grow their own, so no shipping there.

Hopper.


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## drsmurto (11/8/09)

WortGames said:


> I disagree - I pay it occasionally but I spit chips every time.
> 
> For that sort of money I could buy some of the world's finest beers, brewed in their country of origin with the finest malt, barley and water for the style. Why on earth should I spend exactly the same dollars on some tossy 'microbrew', brewed around the corner using the same bloody tap water I use and CHEAPER malt and hops (pellets usually) than what I use in my own beers?
> 
> Perhaps it's not a cool attitude for a 'home microbrewer' to hold but I really feel that somebody's taking the piss sometimes.



Wont quote your 2nd, even less useful rant but you seriously need to remove the bug up your arse, take a chill pill, pour yourself a pint of your beer (since its clearly better than any micro in this country <_< ).

When you do the sums and take into account the basic infrastructure required to construct even a small scale (500L) microbrewery and add that cost to your final price (not to mention the excise which i assume you haven't even bothered to account for) then the cost of $60-80 per carton is quite understandable. I made a tentative start on this process and the numbers freaked me out. I've heard of brewers that have taken 3-5 years just to raise the capital to get their brewery to the production point.

The price that you can make beer for doesnt take either of this into account.

I will happily support microbreweries when handing over $ for beer. :icon_cheers: 

And since you started an argument that you clearly cant win, try and buy a carton of imported english ale for cheaper than a local microbrewed beer.


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## Trav (11/8/09)

WortGames said:


> No worries BribieG, glad it's found some use. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I've posted a new thread as suggested, you're probably right that there are now a new generation of brewers who would use it if they had it.
> :beer:
> 
> 
> ...




Would you prefer that nobody has a go at putting out some different beers for people to CHOOSE to buy or not buy.Many of the world famous beers you talk of are actually able to produce beer a lot cheaper than ours as they are producing hundreds and thousands of cartons a day. I am sure if you wanted to import beer from a 4hl brewery in belgium or the US or anywhere else for that matter, you would pay quite a premium for that product. There is no question that many homebrewers can brew many beers as good if not better than some of the micro beers available, but putting it onto the market is a different story. 

Many breweries use pellets as it is at times very hard to get your hands on the flowers and plugs due to them being bought up by larger micros around the world. Flowers and plugs also clog much of the expensive equipment such as the heat exchanger etc. I am quite amazed that you are so passionate about the form of hops used.

As far as the price goes you really have no idea how much time and effort goes into putting a beer onto the shelf. I do not claim to be an expert either but i am giving it ago. In fact i am off to the brewery tonight to package our 50 cartons for the week and then deliver our beer to a range of stockists on Thursday night and brew again on Sat morning at 6am and teach school kids all week as well. We have been trading for some 7 months and are yet to see any return in our investment. It is quite dissappointing to here people such as yourself complain aboout the price of micro beer. If we were to sell our beer to retailers for any less than $50 a carton we would be gone and dusted within months. Yes, the busy schedule and lack of income etc is our choice and nobody elses but it is very disheartening to listen to people such as yourself put down a very hard working industry with minimal financial return. Bottom line, if its too expensive for you dont buy it! 
Anyway that my 2c worth. Sorry mate couldnt ignore you.....
Cheers
Trav Kooinda Boutique Brewery (Proud to be!) :icon_chickcheers:


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## peas_and_corn (11/8/09)

Trav said:


> Many breweries use pellets as it is at times very hard to get your hands on the flowers and plugs due to them being bought up by larger micros around the world. Flowers and plugs also clog much of the expensive equipment such as the heat exchanger etc. I am quite amazed that you are so passionate about the form of hops used.



IIRC it's also quite hard to get flowers and plugs anyway due to quarantine issues. QB recently looked into this.



Trav said:


> As far as the price goes you really have no idea how much time and effort goes into putting a beer onto the shelf. I do not claim to be an expert either but i am giving it ago. In fact i am off to the brewery tonight to package our 50 cartons for the week and then deliver our beer to a range of stockists on Thursday night and brew again on Sat morning at 6am and teach school kids all week as well. We have been trading for some 7 months and are yet to see any return in our investment. It is quite dissappointing to here people such as yourself complain aboout the price of micro beer. If we were to sell our beer to retailers for any less than $50 a carton we would be gone and dusted within months. Yes, the busy schedule and lack of income etc is our choice and nobody elses but it is very disheartening to listen to people such as yourself put down a very hard working industry with minimal financial return. Bottom line, if its too expensive for you dont buy it!
> Anyway that my 2c worth. Sorry mate couldnt ignore you.....
> Cheers
> Trav Kooinda Boutique Brewery (Proud to be!) :icon_chickcheers:



This.

I'd like to try your beer (hell, I want to try all Australian microbrew)- though I don't know where I can get it in SA (if it is available here)


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## Trav (11/8/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> IIRC it's also quite hard to get flowers and plugs anyway due to quarantine issues. QB recently looked into this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry mate not in SA yet, although you can order online at Purvis Cellars, Montys of Templestowe and coming soon to the Microbeer club. Cheers mate enjoy!


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## RobboMC (11/8/09)

manticle said:


> Just had my worst brewing weekend ever so maybe me?
> 
> First all brew infection and my attempted all apple cider went wrong in every which way possible (melted my girlfriend's juicer, damaged my friend's food processor, extracted half the amount of juice I should have and had to add 12 L of ALDI to what should have been my first all apple) AND I PUT MY LEFT SHOE ON MY RIGHT FOOT!!
> 
> ...




Thanks for that insight, I'm down to my last 50 litres and I thought I was in a bother. My last huge special brew turned out
pretty ordinary as I over-bittered it, and all my really good stuff is drank. But I'm now feel I'm quite well off compared to you poor fella.


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## zebba (11/8/09)

Comments about being able to brew micro-brewery equivalent beers are all pretty moot when you consider that most people aren't home brewers. Who cares if the micro-brewery beer isn't as good as your homebrew, or isn't as good as some Belgian - it's (probably) infinitely better then what the regular punters would be drinking if it wasn't an option.

Head into almost any restaurant and look at the beer list. Almost without fail you'll be disappointed. Now, if I found a restaurant serving good curries with Murrays Icon 2IPA on the beer list, I'd be there twice a week.

Yeah, maybe the world doesn't need another pale ale from another boutique brewery. But I'd rather that then the latest "Carlton Extra Dry Gold Blonde (With Lime)"


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## WarmBeer (11/8/09)

Zebba said:


> Yeah, maybe the world doesn't need another pale ale from another boutique brewery. But I'd rather that then the latest "Carlton Extra Dry Gold Blonde (With Lime)"



Hey, I think you're denying certain beer drinkers their only source of Vitamin C for the week. 

Stop encouraging scurvy, and let them have their lime.


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## Count Vorlauf (11/8/09)

Nicely put, Trav. 

P.S. Oettinger is the German equivalent of Fosters Lite Ice.


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## petesbrew (11/8/09)

Count Vorlauf said:


> Nicely put, Trav.
> 
> P.S. Oettinger is the German equivalent of Fosters Lite Ice.


tastes better though....


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## buttersd70 (11/8/09)

Trav said:


> Sorry mate not in SA yet



Shame......I'm all for giving the little guy a break, and wouldn't mind a taster myself...
mmm....SA Bulk buy? :lol: 
(put forward humourously, but maybe not such a daft idea...)


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## Wortgames (11/8/09)

Trav said:


> Would you prefer that nobody has a go at putting out some different beers for people to CHOOSE to buy or not buy.


Not at all. My gripe is with the perceived value at the coalface.



> I am quite amazed that you are so passionate about the form of hops used.


Really? A brewer that is passionate about his ingredients. Well I never! 



> As far as the price goes you really have no idea how much time and effort goes into putting a beer onto the shelf.


I have a fair idea. I never said it was easy. I just happen to feel that $10 a litre is a bit much for me to pay for anything less than 'inspiring' beer - sorry if that bothers you.



> it is very disheartening to listen to people such as yourself put down a very hard working industry with minimal financial return.


Again, sorry, but that's how I feel. Some microbreweries really aren't peddling anything very special, and paying top dollar for it really pisses me off.



> Bottom line, if its too expensive for you dont buy it!


Now there's an idea!



> Anyway that my 2c worth. Sorry mate couldnt ignore you.....


Don't apologise, I don't need everyone to agree with me. Good luck to you - if your beer is genuinely good stuff and you can get the government or the retailer or whoever is taking the piss to pull their head in and let the stuff retail for a fair price then perhaps I'll start buying it. But at the moment I kinda feel like somebody, somewhere is making too much money out of 'microbrew' and that *many* of them don't live up to their price tag.


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## Effect (11/8/09)

WortGames said:


> Not at all. My gripe is with the perceived value at the coalface.
> 
> Really? A brewer that is passionate about his ingredients. Well I never!
> 
> ...



I can't understand yoru gripe with hop pellets though...they are pretty standard.

I prefer flowers, but still happily use pellets (but hate how they end up like a sludge in the bottom of the kettle, not like a nice filter bed).

Now, isohops or those hop oil extract thingos...that is a completely different story - and I wouldn't want to use them at all...


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## O'Henry (12/8/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> IIRC it's also quite hard to get flowers and plugs anyway due to quarantine issues. QB recently looked into this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1. Is it available in NSW yet?


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## gibbocore (12/8/09)

WortGames said:


> Not at all. My gripe is with the perceived value at the coalface.
> 
> Really? A brewer that is passionate about his ingredients. Well I never!
> 
> ...



wow, so much arrogance in one post. Well done.


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## Trav (12/8/09)

WortGames said:


> Not at all. My gripe is with the perceived value at the coalface.
> 
> Really? A brewer that is passionate about his ingredients. Well I never!
> 
> ...



Cheers, enjoy brewing those beautiful freshly hopped beers mate. Pretty safe to say Im not the rich one, but hopefully one day, and why not indeed..... :lol:


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## eamonnfoley (12/8/09)

gibbocore said:


> wow, so much arrogance in one post. Well done.



A guy is entitled to his opinion. But maybe the hop comment was not well researched. B) But he's right to a degree. $60 or so a carton is ok by me, but $20+ for a four pack is a joke for a "local" product.
Defend our micros all you like - at the end of the day, the customer has to be happy. And a lot arent. And its not all the government's fault. Many breweries are run with the wrong motives (to make a million), and the product is too expensive and quality falls by the wayside.


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## Supra-Jim (12/8/09)

WortGames said:


> that *many* of them don't live up to their price tag.



Yeah, and the same goes for the wine industry, plenty of bottles out there that aren't worthy of washing my socks in, but they're still out there and people do buy them. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet and leave the bottle on the shelf. To throw in another phrase, value is in the eye of the beer-holder!

Microbrewing is like plenty of other 'cottage' industries', on one hand the low volume hands on craft aspect of the industry can lead to a high quality niche product, however, unfortunately this usually comes at a higher cost than large commercial enterprises as economies of scale are not available to the small operator.

Wortgames, I think the OP was directed a finding bottle-o's that supplied quality beers at reasonable prices, rather than bashing micro's for using pellets and gouging the market! Generally the best prices are found at the large bulk chains as they have high turn-over, lower margins etc. Where as the small local independant store will usually have a much slower turn over of stock.

It also must be remembered that shelf space costs money to the store operator, if product X has a high turnover, it can be purchased in larger quantities and a lower price can be justified, however if product Y is slower moving, a higher price is often needed to justify it's position in the store.

Cheers SJ


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