# Brew In A Bucket Why Not Indeed



## Bribie G

Following on naturally from the BIAB / Lauter tun thread, I'm now ready to go with the next phase of the one-man systems wars

I'm a 50k round trip from Bunnings so I went to the local Thrifty link type store on the Island and hey - came up with a sweet little bit of gear. The Queen brand bucket is 20L as well but shorter and wider than the HandyPail of fame. Somewhat dearer as well, but fits beautifully into a Crownie with only about a cm all round and here it's sitting actually on a trivet as well.












couple of bodged drill holes, I did guide holes but the half inch bit snatched a couple of times and ripped some extra plastic. Funny I've not generally had any snatch problems in the past. B) 






I've also put together the pulley system, I belayed it to the upper beam as MHB recommended and works a treat. 

Stress test with a full cube






Test with the bucket / malt pipe with a 10k weight inside, I'd imagine the most it would be called on to do is 5 to 7 k, so all good. Lovely silky smooth and light action. 












The whole exercise only took me about an hour to put together. 

So now the system is saying "feed me some grain" so I'm off to do some milling. Will post progressively


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Glad your not drillin my teeth 
Nev


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## ledgenko

Bribie .... Good work .. I love it ... 

One day soon you will be putting up pics of your 3V one level march pumped over engineered awesomeness personified brewery ... and we can all comment on the brew porn .... ;-0 

But for now ... This is just super sexy .. kinda like Liz Hurley ... but not up to Scarlett as yet .... 

Matt


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## QldKev

dude, have you got a 10v brewery now?


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## Bribie G

I'm collecting tons of tuns  - fortunately just cheap plastic ones at the moment, but who knows......................


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## QldKev

Bribie G said:


> I'm collecting tons of tuns  - fortunately just cheap plastic ones at the moment, but who knows......................



so when are you hitting town up here for a beer or few, check out all my pots n pans


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## stux

BribieG's 5V BIAB brewery


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## kelbygreen

so your going to lift it like a bag??? will you lift it slowly as not to disturb the grain bed? As I assume you are doing this to get clearer wort into the kettle.


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## gregs

Bribie you are an idiot! :lol:


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## bradsbrew

Michael, next time you want to drill through a soft and thin material put something solid under it. And put it on the slowest speed.

Interested to see where this goes mate.

Cheers


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## Deebo

Whats the advantage of a bucket with a false bottom compared to a bag? 
Better grain bed for recirculating/sparging or something?


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## gregs

Here you go Dribbles this is what youre after.


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## RdeVjun

Q. How do you keep an idiot in suspense?


...





Shaping up to be another epic thread Bribie! B)


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## ShredMaster

Watching with baited breath, friend


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## Nick JD

Braubiemeister...


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## mccuaigm

Great stuff as usual Bribie, love your work


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## Tim F

So I guess it's called BIAB? 

If you lift the bucket out to do a step then dunk it back in, do it slowly. The shower of wort over my bench and shoes the other weekend taught me that one


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## Silo Ted

Ah taking a simple soluionand mking it more gear intensive than good old 3 vessel. A bloke's gotta do something with his time. 

PS: I do enjoy your experiments, Bribie. They make this place fan-diddly-tastic.


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## bradsbrew

Silo Ted said:


> They make this place fan-diddly-tastic.




Haha well played.


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## drsmurto

Hate to rain on your parade Bribie but this form of brewing pre-dates brew in a bag by many years.

I recall talking to AG brewers 5 years ago who chuckled about how they started of with 2 x 20L mayo buckets, 1 inside the other with holes drilled in them to drain the mash tun into a kettle/urn.

Unless you are doing something vastly different? :huh:


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## bradsbrew




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## drtomc

Maybe, but reinventing round things with axels in the middle is fun. 

T.


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## Bribie G

Yes Dr Smurto, I found out to my horror that the Bunnings Handy Pail will slide nicely into the Queen brand pail and lock into it at the top to give a perfect double walled bucket in bucket. Oh no, experiment #5 coming on, except that I'll have to buy a new Queen and a new Handy Bucket as the Queen has already been destroyed by drilling ... oh will it never end ... feel free to shoot me. 


:lol: 

Ok,

Same old - grain crushed






Sort of same old - fit the bag/ malt pipe - I've just used 24L of strike liquor here as I'm going to sparge later. Fck yeah. 






Now as the Welsh would say, there's interesting - I've arranged for the mash in the inner vessel to be at 64 degrees but the outer layer of liquor between the urn wall and the malt pipe is at 66 degrees. So I should get far better insulation of the main mash (which is a bit thicker as well of course)











Same old - wrapped up for an hour with the mash surface covered with bubblewrap for extra insulation 

Time for a Yorkie and stroll out to look at the moon, piccie taken from my front driveway:







:beerbang:


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## MarkBastard

Why do people buy march pumps when gravity does the same thing for free?????????????????????


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## pk.sax

Height challenged brew in confined space syndrome!?


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## gregs

Mark^Bastard said:


> Why do people buy march pumps when gravity does the same thing for free?????????????????????



You are also an idiot.


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## MarkBastard

practicalfool said:


> Height challenged brew in confined space syndrome!?



So it's okay to slightly modify an accepted brewing practise to make the brew day go easier? Sweet!


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## bradsbrew

Mark^Bastard said:


> Why do people buy march pumps when gravity does the same thing for free?????????????????????



Gravity won't recirc your mash for 60 min to give you a consistent result. B)


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## MarkBastard

gregs said:


> You are also an idiot.



I'm almost definitely smarter than you.


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## pk.sax

Lol @ capt obvious.

PS: Bribie. You are already drilling holes and collecting more vessels, purchasing electric elements..... Hehe. Some prophecy


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## MarkBastard

Hey bribie any reason you didn't put the lid on the handy pail during the mash?


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## Bribie G

Mark^Bastard said:


> Hey bribie any reason you didn't put the lid on the handy pail during the mash?



****

I christen this "The Bastard enhancement #1"



edit: you do realise of course that you are talking to the man who forgot to take his friggn BIAB bag to the systems war day <_<


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## MarkBastard

Haha, yeah I was thinking it'd be good for keeping the temp inside it constant.

EDIT: Yeah I watched that video, pretty funny. Loved your plugging of craft brewer too (did you get kick backs?)


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## gregs

Mark^Bastard said:


> Hey bribie any reason you didn't put the lid on the handy pail during the mash?



Yeah .... he would have suffocated. :lol:


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## Bribie G

Ok while we are waiting for the enzymes to do their thang, the recipe today is a mega for some family stuff coming up between now and Xmas - nothing too fancy and I've deliberately chosen a fairly light grain bill for #1. I've noted that some of the commercials use roast barley to _carefully _colour up some of their lagers nowadays, especially the "guaranteed pure ingredients" beers from XXXX and Tooheys. I seem to remember a certain Abbotsford brewer mentioning RB as well, although a lighter version. 


*Carlton Clone*


*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 21.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.515
Total Hops (g): 20.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.052 (P): 12.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.36 %
Colour (SRM): 4.7 (EBC): 9.3
Bitterness (IBU): 21.3 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
4.000 kg Pilsner Barrett Burston (88.59%)
0.500 kg Maltose Syrup Chinese (11.07%)
0.015 kg Roasted Barley (0.33%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
20.0 g Pride of Ringwood Leaf (9.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes.
Mashout with immersion element 78C

Fermented at 15C with Wyeast Danish Lager yeast

Water treatment gypsum and epsom salts


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## yardy

is this a piss take ?


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## thelastspud

So I guess you're trying to see if you'll have better efficiency with brew in a bucket rather than enhanced BIAB ?


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## Deebo

I think efficiency would be about the same, but would probably produce clearer wort and make sparging a lot easier.


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## Bribie G

Ok, mash and sparge done. My hunch about the temperature loss was correct, I got NO temp drop at all in the main mash in the pail.






Hoisted a wee bit and recirculated using jug, but it was not much of a success, this was about the best I got. 






I think the problem is that with the pail submerged in the urn there wasn't much of a grain bed firming up as it was all just billowing around. I'll definitely do this again next brew and try more or less what I did in the Lauter Tun version, hoist the pail right up and let it form a bed _then_ start recircing and sparging. 

I skippped the mashout as I was keen to proceed, then hoisted up further and sparged with about 6L that I'd reserved from the start. However at the end, the last dribbling spargings were still at around 1025 <_< 






Anyway, boil on. And so far comments re bag vs pail are:

Far better temperature stability in mash
Far easier to handle a pail instead of a bag, but must have a skyhook
Some advantages in clarity 
Bag is cheaper outlay initially 


So let's check on efficiency later on :icon_cheers:


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## felten

Are you recircing during the mash? I think that's the way to go if you are using a malt-pipeesque setup


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## stux

I would think the trick would be to raise the bucket until you end up with a thicker mash, then essentially use a fly sparge type setup to recirc the mash

Essentially braumeister in reverse


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## Bribie G

Yes that's what I'll do next time, but lets see what the efficiency and yield is for this batch. The jugging recirc didn't do much, I think for this sytem to work properly a pump is a must.


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## ShredMaster

Bribie, I was kinda hoping for a different conclusion re: jugging the recirc... 

As per another thread, I've inherited a bucket-in-bucket system and was planning on "manual recirc" to keep the mash temp constant or for ramping up during a step mash. 

Still keen to see/read more results over time 

Cheers,
Shred.


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## stux

ShredMaster said:


> Bribie, I was kinda hoping for a different conclusion re: jugging the recirc...
> 
> As per another thread, I've inherited a bucket-in-bucket system and was planning on "manual recirc" to keep the mash temp constant or for ramping up during a step mash.
> 
> Still keen to see/read more results over time
> 
> Cheers,
> Shred.



Turn your outer bucket into a bucket of death and add a bag 

Done


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## dr K

Well done !
I did not, however, see any mention of the famous PAP-ZAP (two buckets one, the inner, with a shirt load of holes) and I have stories about that device..
My other point/question is..why all this bone-up about efficiency, not, of course, restricted to this thread but as an overall theme.
OK I am at the other end, if I bothered to check my efficiency it runs about 55% (my choice, my system is capable of 70+).
If an average batch at an average 75% uses 4.5Kg of grain ($13.50) the same at 50% uses 6kg ($18) and at super 100% 3kg ($9), the batch uses the same amount of yeast, the same amount of water to mash, the same amount of energy to boil and cool, there really is screw all cost difference, so ..why does a greater efficiency make a better beer, does it take less effort, does it save time?

K


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## ShredMaster

dr K said:


> If an average batch at an average 75% uses 4.5Kg of grain ($13.50) the same at 50% uses 6kg ($18) and at super 100% 3kg ($9), the batch uses the same amount of yeast, the same amount of water to mash, the same amount of energy to boil and cool, there really is screw all cost difference, so ..why does a greater efficiency make a better beer, does it take less effort, does it save time?




....and _your_ definition of "efficient" is....??


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## Bribie G

I agree, but just pushing the envelope to see what's achievable. At the end of the day, if it involves chucking a bit more malt at the brew then that's fine - but as the TV ad for the Northern Territory says "if you never go you'll never know"  
It's not just efficiency, it's exploring alternatives. Based on what I've found so far, I think I'd recommend the use of a bucket over a bag for anyone looking to get into AG. As suggested by Dave Line in the 1970s


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## Bribie G

OK, efficiency bang on 75%. 
So to sum up, so far with this method we still have single vessel (think of the bucket as being a bag I suppose), far easier to handle than a wet bag, similar efficiency , same length of brew day.


I'll do my next brew with this system, but hoist the bucket first before trying recirc or sparging to see if I can get clearer wort so less crap in the kettle. 

I'm definitely tending towards the BIAB / Lauter tun solution at the moment. 

Trub recovery notes in the morning. :icon_cheers:


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## Tanga

I don't have my bag yet, but do have a 20L mayo bucket. Am I right in thinking it needs a false bottom though? Not cheap.


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## thelastspud

Tanga said:


> I don't have my bag yet, but do have a 20L mayo bucket. Am I right in thinking it needs a false bottom though? Not cheap.




You could get away with lots of very small holes in the bucket


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## [email protected]

Tanga said:


> I don't have my bag yet, but do have a 20L mayo bucket. Am I right in thinking it needs a false bottom though? Not cheap.



Tanga,


Look up Charlie Papizan's bucket in bucket/PAP ZAP on google or get the Joy of Home Brewing. you don't need a false bottom and is comparably simpler than all of this and has been around for 25-30 years.


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## petesbrew

abc said:


> Tanga,
> 
> 
> Look up Charlie Papizan's bucket in bucket/PAP ZAP on google or get the Joy of Home Brewing. you don't need a false bottom and is comparably simpler than all of this and has been around for 25-30 years.


http://www.byo.com/stories/projects-and-eq...e-gear-for-beer

third pic down shows it, Tanga.
Bucket drilled with lots of tiny holes, sitting in another bucket with a tap in the bottom.
Some mention using a bag as well, but I never did and it still worked fine.
I used one for my first 10 or so AG's. Perfect cheap & easy start into AG'ing.


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## MarkBastard

Tanga said:


> I don't have my bag yet, but do have a 20L mayo bucket. Am I right in thinking it needs a false bottom though? Not cheap.



I'm planning on doing lots of small holes as well as fitting a mesh screen made from one of those stainless steel splatter guards. That should be a similar filter to a BIAB bag from what I understand.

Thanks so much for this thread bribie.


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## browndog

Tanga said:


> I don't have my bag yet, but do have a 20L mayo bucket. Am I right in thinking it needs a false bottom though? Not cheap.




Hi Tanga,

Soon King Brown Brewing should be putting up the videos of our ghetto rig on the BABBs system wars brew day. The Scientist and I used the bucket in an bucket system and a bucket of death as a kettle. I think we inspired Bribie to try it out.

cheers

Browndog

As others have said, you don't need a false bottom, just a second bucket with plenty of small holes in it.


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## Tanga

Interesting guys. Thanks. Something to think about for sure. Look forward to seeing some more of the bucket bag in action. Does it do a mash out?

PS what size drill bit = small?

PPS I like your splatterguard idea Mark. Please post pics when you've got her running.

/ hijack (sorry Bribe, very interesting)


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## petesbrew

Tanga said:


> Interesting guys. Thanks. Something to think about for sure. Look forward to seeing some more of the bucket bag in action. Does it do a mash out?
> 
> PS what size drill bit = small?
> 
> PPS I like your splatterguard idea Mark. Please post pics when you've got her running.
> 
> / hijack (sorry Bribe, very interesting)


Unsure of hole size. Mine was actually a handme down through a few brewers. Pretty certain it was initially Stusters.
Going by the roughest guess in the world, a 1 or 2 mm drill bit. Google is your friend... i'm sure it's on internet land somewhere.
Drill hundreds of the buggers, and make sure you clean all the burrs off.

edit: 1/8 drill bit. (3mm drill bit)


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## Kingbrownbrewing

Guys check out the ghetto system in the Babbs System Wars thread, there are videos of how the boys did it, and it was truly amazing what they could do for zero dollars.


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## [email protected]

Tanga straight from Papazian's The Joy of Home Brewing by googling:

Holes are 1/8 inch (3mm). You don't need any other inserts or strainers or bags etc.

OT: Can anyone tell me how show an image in the post?


View attachment papzap.bmp


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## Spork

abc - you need to "host" the image somewhere first. Photobucket is a free web hosting service. First you must save the image to your comp, then (after you make an account) upload it to photobucket. Then you copy the code given to you by p'bucket and paste it in your post. That displays the image.
It's really quite simple, easier than I made it sound.


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## Bribie G

Tanga, Mark the ghetto brew videos are now up on YouTube 

A neat little trick would be to use a Queen brand bucket for the outer bucket and a Bunnings Handy Pail for the (drilled) inner bucket as they fit neatly around the top, almost as if they were made for each other, with a perfect little insulating space between the two of them. That and an electric kettle element, some means of drilling the holes for a tap and the element, and you're away for less than 50 bucks. 

abc, Photobucket is easy, here's your bmp which I copied into my forum pics treasure trove on my local machine
Then fired up PB and uploaded




Then when you hover over the pic it gives you a choice of codes to pick from, 






in this case I selected:

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv144/BribieG/papzap.jpg[/IM] (actually the last bit reads IMG but I deliberately crippled it so you could see the code :rolleyes: )and just pasted it into this post

Which gets displayed as:

[img]http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv144/BribieG/papzap.jpg

I did the same with the screen shots of course


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## stux

An alternative is to save as a jpg then just attach inline


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## Bribie G

Yup I often do that as well using the "choose / upload " options 

e.g. 





but of course you get the annoying frame around it.


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## lespaul

If you got a sieve and cut the handle off, holes in the bottom and secured with silicone, how do you think that would work... or plastic bucket with a bag in it :S
falsie seems like way too many coins for this kind of operation
still waiting on results :icon_cheers:


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## Tanga

Thanks for the in depth part list, but I've already got a 20 L urn as my outer bucket (and element, and tap, etc) so all I need is a bag, or bucket-bag (as above) or possibly malt pipe if I can butcher a free or cheap coffee machine for the pump. If not I'm keen on seeing how the bucket stacks up (pun totally intended).

Lespaul - where was that sieve, and what size is it? Looks like a good option as long as the curve isn't a problem?

PS. What size do the splatter guards come in?


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## Bribie G

Right, results are in and I'm most impressed... remember I was heading for a 22L batch - not the 23-25L batches I had to make with bog standard BIAB. 
So that's 21L into a CraftBrewer cube, plus a litre to play around with for starters or in this case to mix up my tub of Chinese Maltose Syrup.

Again I strained all the wort and trub left in the urn through a kitchen strainer, this time lined with a grain bag, and strained it into a pot then funneled into a bottle:







So I've hit my 22L absolutely spot on, with final loss to trub only the cupful or so that is in the bottom of the bottle. So the bit of recirculation I managed to do seems to have reduced the crap in the kettle. 

<ramblings and musings>

I think the problem with recirculating while the bucket is in the urn is that the wort drawn off from the tap is mostly coming from the "path of least resistance" and only part of each jug is coming through the grain bed, so whilst _eventually_ the grain bed will filter, manual jugging is going to take forever. An unattended pump would handle that, ideally Braumeister style with a heat controller and bursts of heat from the element during mashing itself. 

So as a temporary fix to the recirc problem, when I do run #2 I'll absolutely force all the wort through the grain bed by removing it out of the urn altogether into a Handy Bucket then run it back through the grain bed - which should now be nice and compact. Hoisting gradually as I go. And yes I still have a couple of Handy buckets that haven't had the crapper drilled out of them  


Anyway on balance, I reckon than even a plain vanilla bucket-in-urn system gives slightly better results than BIAB - acceptable efficiency, better trub management, far less dicking around and quicker cleanup - just tip grain into garden beds and hose off the bucket and FB. 
So far, the BIAB with lauter tun gives better efficiency and clearer wort into the kettle although this doesn't seem to have translated into less final trub loss. However with the LT there's a lot more cleaning up, i.e. Bag, Collection Vessel and the LT. And definitely more dicking around on brew day doing the fly sparge. 

Who knows I may have some Bags for sale in the near future and a Handy Pail with a hole in it :lol: 
Although I could turn it into a Bucket of Death....


Noooooooooooooooooooooo

</end ramblings and musings>


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## the_new_darren

Tanga, Why dont you just mash in the urn with som Termimeash or similar over the elements and a "pickuo tube? at the bottom of the urn

I did that for years no probs.

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Tim F

Yeah but it's just so convenient lifting/draining out the grain after the mash and chucking it then boiling in the other vessel, where your wort already is. No transfer back and forth needed.


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## Jazzafish

My first MLT was a bucket in bucket system. Used to belong to Linz from the MALE club. I often pass it around to people wanting to give AG brewing a try. Last one was PetesBrew but he has now been converted.

I still use it from time to time for say making small batches or starter wort. Have plans to fill it with flowers for a hop back before chilling..


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## Bribie G

I'm heading up the street shortly, I'll check out how big those splatter guards are.


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## Bribie G

Hm bad news about the splatter guards, they are too big for Handy Pails - they range from 11 - 13 inches in the old money.
However Target do a 8" version of the sieve thing that Lespaul posted. It would be dead easy to take the handles off, they are around $10.

If you drill the drain holes in the bucket towards the middle and sit the sieve over there I don't think you'd need silicone, maybe just rest a mash paddle on it or something during mashing to make sure it doesn't try to float up.


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## Tanga

Thanks Bribie. Well worth considering, depending, I will probably use that idea.


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## felten

maybe try bolting it to the bottom of the bucket, a SS bolt and a couple of nuts should do it (I have been planning something similar)


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## MarkBastard

Bribie, it's good that the splatter guards are big. You can cut them to side. Someone on here used some silicone hose with a cut down its length to form a rim on the cut down splatter guard so that it covered the entire width of the bottom of the bucket and fit in snugly. It should actually perform better than a false bottom from what I understand.

Thanks so much for this thread by the way, it seems that following the normal BIAB process but using a rigid bucket instead of a bag has some merits which is what I was expecting. Better clarity, less mess etc.


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## The Scientist

Buckets can do everything :super: 



My next project is to get a bucket fermenter and have the whole process done in nothing but buckets.

Cheepest rig around, for anyone wanting to get in to AG this is the way to go. 

Cheers,

TS


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## Tanga

Go to your local takeaway and ask them if you can have their empty mayo buckets. Free is the best kind of cheap.


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## browndog

Tanga said:


> Go to your local takeaway and ask them if you can have their empty mayo buckets. Free is the best kind of cheap.




nobody has mentioned how many brews it takes till your beer doesn't taste like mayonnaise :lol:


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## pk.sax

Makes me think that with all that farting around, how much for a 25-30 Ltr cheap esky and a length of braid. Just saying.....


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## sim

browndog said:


> nobody has mentioned how many brews it takes till your beer doesn't taste like mayonnaise :lol:




...or plastic h34r:


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## browndog

practicalfool said:


> Makes me think that with all that farting around, how much for a 25-30 Ltr cheap esky and a length of braid. Just saying.....




True, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other really, but in ghetto brewing stainless steel is classed as bling.


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## pk.sax

Hehe. True. Adding my costs up, keggle with socket 70, ball valve, barrel nipple and hosetail ~ 45ish. Burner and reg ~145ish, can be done cheaper tho. + silicon hose + bag, well, all up it's less than 300 bucks for a 50L keggle BIAB.

I'm thinking of going 2v with an esky added (rigid, self contained units are easier to handle in my apartment) hopefully 100 bucks for an acceptable mash tun, 150 for something spacious, maybe an extra bob for a ball valve.

As it stands, my BIAB gear cost less than the cost of an urn and I can upgrade to 2v for convenience. Don't see anything wrong about using a bucket in bucket mash tun, just not sure how easy would plastic be to clean etc. Steel is pretty forgiving.

OK, that was a lot of OT!

Carry on Bribie


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## gregs

Dribbles already owns two electric urns so if he adds an esky or maybe a 50l keg thingy he would save a lot of stuffing around. Bloody embarrassment he is to all AHB members.


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## Bribie G

I've gone for a new false bottom strategy using a Woolies Strainer and a grain bag, which I've posted on Nala's Thread today. 

If this works then I won't be using my false bottom in this method but may keep it for my other "lauter tun" method where it works very well.


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## McFeast

Bribie G said:


> I've gone for a new false bottom strategy using a Woolies Strainer and a grain bag, which I've posted on Nala's Thread today.
> 
> If this works then I won't be using my false bottom in this method but may keep it for my other "lauter tun" method where it works very well.



So its been a couple of weeks, now what is the best method with the bucket? (and construction)


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## Bribie G

Damn your avatar looks great, could murder a burger right now.


Yes the Woolies strainer wrapped in a sock is the way to go IMHO - all the advantages of BIAB including the entry cost, plus the ability to form a true grain bed.


As a postscript, on my other thread (brewery cleanout) I have sold the SS false bottom etc. Last week RdeVjun came down for a brewday whilst on holiday and we did the Urn plus Lauter Tun with fly sparging method to do a RIS.
Mate we were shellshocked at the end of the day, brewday took around 8 hours with both of us slaving like ma Midnight Train niggaz homies.
But you have to experiment 

System wars settled AFIAC

edit that should be AFAIAC


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## rotten

A proper 3V system Bribieg would have done in 4 hrs, that's half the time, including waiting for sparge water etc :super:


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## thelastspud

So I read this as it was all happening but you did lots of experiments, a bit of this a bit of that. 
Now that your happy and finished would you mind spelling out the whole definitive Bribie bucket urn method.


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## Bribie G

rotten said:


> A proper 3V system Bribieg would have done in 4 hrs, that's half the time, including waiting for sparge water etc :super:


What's "proper" about 3v?


No need to post about Bucket in Urn
Same as BIAB, just a "solid- sided bag" with a false bottom. Easy to work out :icon_cheers:


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## Dazza88

Ahhh, to buy a cb biab bag or get a handy pail for my new 70l pot?

I wonder if Ross will start selling buckets with holes in them or buckets with kettle elements in them?


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## thelastspud

Sparge?
recirc ?
besides you post about everything


----------



## 1974Alby

asked this in Nala's thread but got no response...anyone see any issues doing BIABucket in a Keggle with a burner rather than in an urn??

My main concern would be that the bucket wouldnt get the same circulation of water compared to a voile bag ..would this limit the extraction of sugars from the grain ?...apparently it doesnt in an urn, but a keggle is a different kettle of wort.


----------



## maxymoo

BIABathtub?


----------



## Bribie G

Keggle should be ok, provided you could get a big enough bucket, otherwise you'd have a fairly thick mash in the bucket surrounded by dilute wort outside the bucket, unless you fit a pump and recirc during the mash itself. 

One advantage of the bucket is that with a bigger beer, you can hoist the bucket up and sparge with a few litres of very hot water, sort of like a mini fly sparge, to get the goodness out of the grain. More effective (because you now have a proper grain bed) and less messy than the "dunk sparge" that a lot of guys do with BIAB. Then boil for a bit longer to bring the wort back down to where it would have been without the sparge.


----------



## 1974Alby

Bribie G said:


> , otherwise you'd have a fairly thick mash in the bucket surrounded by dilute wort outside the bucket, unless you fit a pump and recirc during the mash itself.



yeah, that was my concern...could this be overcome by a bit of manual recirculation?,,ie using a jug/5L bucket every ten minutes or so? I suppose this is likely to result in loss of mash temp, then requiring a blast from the burner, leading to a melted bucket...

I like the idea of the bucket providing a compact grain bed through which to circulate and sparge, resulting in clearer beer than delivered by BIABag...but I have a keggle and want to use it and cant justify purchase of an urn...

The problem is more challenging as my keggle is not straight sided, it has a narrower an opening to fit a BigW stock pot lid, so cannot fit in a big bucket that would maximise grain contact with wort....perhaps I should just get some braid for my 80L tropikool esky and move to a 2v system...or just continue with a bag and no recirulating/sparging.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

ahh - a mistake there

"resulting in clearer beer..."

which it wont - it will result in clearer pre-boil wort which is not even close to the same thing.

IMO, better to move to a more traditional multi (2, 3, 4 etc) system or just stick with the bag. The only major difference will be a few percentage points of total system efficiency due to less kettle trub.


----------



## Bribie G

Yes, it's all about the trub in my case, and the rather unpleasant experience of sumo-wrestling the bag, otherwise I would have just stuck with the bag . Also when I get a pump, step mashes will be a cinch.


----------



## 1974Alby

ok, so the bucket will give clearer pre-boil wort ......which will result in less trub post boil?

resulting in a higher efficiency as more wort is transferred to the fermenter (ie less trub left behind in the kettle). Have I got that right?

So if I stick with a Bag, I probably get better extraction of sugars in the mash (compared to a bucket in a keggle) but lose a bit more wort to trub when filling the fermenter..swings and roundabouts. Might look at a 2v system later as I have a fine esky for it, but trying to keep things simple and avoid the need for more equipment (to buy and use and clean) and processes (to stuff up).


----------



## stux

Albainian said:


> ok, so the bucket will give clearer pre-boil wort ......which will result in less trub post boil?
> 
> resulting in a higher efficiency as more wort is transferred to the fermenter (ie less trub left behind in the kettle). Have I got that right?
> 
> So if I stick with a Bag, I probably get better extraction of sugars in the mash (compared to a bucket in a keggle) but lose a bit more wort to trub when filling the fermenter..swings and roundabouts. Might look at a 2v system later as I have a fine esky for it, but trying to keep things simple and avoid the need for more equipment (to buy and use and clean) and processes (to stuff up).



The bag should result in less grain absorption, which will mean more lautering efficiency, which should mean a greater Into Kettle efficiency 

Swings and Roundabouts.

I would say, the only real reason to go BIABucket is if you don't like handling a wet bag. Me, I just raise the bag on a pulley, give it a good squeeze with some heavy duty gloves and let it drip for the first 20 minutes or so of the boil.

Then I swing it into a bucket... for disposal later

With the BIABucket, the grain is already in the bucket


----------



## Bribie G

And you can do the BribieBucketPressinator trick as well :icon_cheers: 

(top bucket full of water)


----------



## stux

Bribie G said:


> And you can do the BribieBucketPressinator trick as well :icon_cheers:
> 
> (top bucket full of water)
> 
> View attachment 49523



Now you've added 2 more vessels and a draining rack 

Mash Press 

Have your worked out your absorption when using the Pressinator?


----------



## MarkBastard

Thirsty Boy said:


> IMO, better to move to a more traditional multi (2, 3, 4 etc) system or just stick with the bag. The only major difference will be a few percentage points of total system efficiency due to less kettle trub.



What benefit does a flexible bag have over a bucket with a mesh bottom? Other than sticking with convention.

If you count a skyhook / pully system, or the bucket you dump your bag into, or the door knock you tie your bag to for draining as part of your BIAB system (which you should to be fair), and compare it to using a bucket to hold the grain, I think you get a fairer comparison.

Anyway I'm over BIAB, bags are a pain in the arse, and I'm testing out this bucket method this weekend so I guess I'll know what I prefer soon enough.


----------



## Fat Bastard

I've been following this thread with a fair bit of interest.

I'm looking at modifying the BIAB system to suit my own requirements. I brew in a very small kitchen in a small flat. I don't have the space to go to a 3V system, and hoisting a bag from a full kettle isn't impossible.

Last brew I did, I drained the kettle into a big bucket, sparged the grain with 5 litres of water set aside in a small esky, gave the grain a good pressing with a potato masher (I have a very sturdy false bottom), pulled the bag out, and returned the wort to the kettle for the boil.

The sparge step didn;t work too well as the water preferred to run around the grain rather than through it. From the other thread on this topic, Bribie (or someone) had the idea of making a bag with a Swiss Voile Bottom, and heavy sides to stop this happening. I'm going to sew up a bag similar with a voile bottom and cotton duck sides. With the aid of a pump (or for the first few tries, a jug) I should be able to recirculate and do stepped mashes, and the sparge should be much more effective.

Any thoughts on this 1.5V/Boil in a Flexible Bucket system? Anyone tried it before? Am I being impertinant by trying to meddle with proven systems after only 2 AG brews?


----------



## yardy

Bradley said:


> So I read this as it was all happening but you did lots of experiments, a bit of this a bit of that.
> Now that your happy and finished *would you mind spelling out the whole definitive Bribie bucket urn method.*



+1


----------



## pk.sax

yardy said:


> +1


Bribie kicked his bag and landed his foot in a bucket.

PS: for a more flash version of bribie's current incarnation. Didn't hatch do a fancy malt pipe with a solid walled steel pipe with perforated bottom. He even had fancy handles welded to it. Long time. From memory, it was a long long post.


----------



## kymba

Fat Bastard said:


> I've been following this thread with a fair bit of interest.
> 
> I'm looking at modifying the BIAB system to suit my own requirements. I brew in a very small kitchen in a small flat. I don't have the space to go to a 3V system, and hoisting a bag from a full kettle isn't impossible.
> 
> Last brew I did, I drained the kettle into a big bucket, sparged the grain with 5 litres of water set aside in a small esky, gave the grain a good pressing with a potato masher (I have a very sturdy false bottom), pulled the bag out, and returned the wort to the kettle for the boil.
> 
> The sparge step didn;t work too well as the water preferred to run around the grain rather than through it. From the other thread on this topic, Bribie (or someone) had the idea of making a bag with a Swiss Voile Bottom, and heavy sides to stop this happening. I'm going to sew up a bag similar with a voile bottom and cotton duck sides. With the aid of a pump (or for the first few tries, a jug) I should be able to recirculate and do stepped mashes, and the sparge should be much more effective.
> 
> Any thoughts on this 1.5V/Boil in a Flexible Bucket system? Anyone tried it before? Am I being impertinant by trying to meddle with proven systems after only 2 AG brews?


FB if you have the spare voile laying around try 2 or 3 layers for the sides and a single layer for the bottom

last weekend i was having a cnt of a time recirculating with my old 2 layer bag. i had to get out the new bag mid mash and do a space dock into another bucket lined with my single layer bag. once that was sorted it was unstoppable


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mark^Bastard said:


> What benefit does a flexible bag have over a bucket with a mesh bottom? Other than sticking with convention.
> 
> If you count a skyhook / pully system, or the bucket you dump your bag into, or the door knock you tie your bag to for draining as part of your BIAB system (which you should to be fair), and compare it to using a bucket to hold the grain, I think you get a fairer comparison.
> 
> Anyway I'm over BIAB, bags are a pain in the arse, and I'm testing out this bucket method this weekend so I guess I'll know what I prefer soon enough.



Well, if you're talking about the things mentioned in this thread generally - then its entirely subjective. I've brewed on systems that cover pretty much all of the alternatives that have been suggested so far, and IMO the best, simplest and most effective of those systems are either simple no sparge bag systems, or simple traditional multi vessel systems. The others tend to be just mish mash jobs that often end up combining the worst features of the systems their bits have been scavenged from.

However, the bucket in bucket/urn system is entirely workable and in various formats was proved to be years ago, so i have no critisism at all if people decide thats the way they'd like to go. i personally didn't like using one and think there are better solutions, but thats differrent to me thinking its an inherrently bad idea.

However, if you look at the post i was actually responding to in the post you quoted - you'll note that the poster in question wanted to use their existing keggle, had a narrow opening in the top of it and noticed themselves that using a bucket that would fit, would also mean that their grain would be constrained in a small volume, seperated from the majority of the liquid. And in my experience that would be a bad idea that can lead to really quite bad efficiency and issues with conversion. Thus my opinion that he would be better off with a 2V system. Also, the only reason they quoted for moving away from bag to "bucket" was to improve beer clarity, which it wouldn't.

specific rather than general critisism


----------



## MarkBastard

Fair enough mate, but I'm interested in your pure 'real bag' vs 'bucket with mesh bottom' opinion.

I find BIAB in its 'purist form' sounds good on paper only. In reality it's almost never a one vessel system unless you're cheating and under presenting the gear you use just to make out like BIAB is awesome.

What issues did you have with a bucket in urn setup? A lot of people are negative about it but I don't think anyone has really said why yet. I'm planning on giving it a go with an open mind and if it doesn't work out for me I'll let people know, but if there are some hidden issues with it why can't people state them to save me even giving it a go?


----------



## Bribie G

Aha on re reading, I see where the confusion lies for Yardy Et Al, a lot of the photos ended up on Nala's thread where he is doing something similar. 
So putting it all together;

BIU (bucket in urn) is basically BIAB with a "solid" bag. 
The idea is that the grain is allowed to form a proper grain bed so the wort runs through the bed, not whooshing out of the sides of the bag. 

I made the "solid bag" out of a Masters-brand 20L pail drilled at the bottom and fitted with a woolies $8 strainer hoofed into shape then wrapped in a hop bag for an extra fine "strain" and secured with some silicone hose. The latter two I already have, and they get used for their original purposes when not part of the BIU setup. 



















So mashing etc is identical to BIAB, following which the bucket can be gradually raised using a block and tackle and wort recirculated through the grain bed to produce a clearer wort than straight BIAB. 









With big beers a wee sparge may also be performed if desired. At the end, the bucket is removed completely and the grain tipped out and the components retrieved. BIU has done its work. 

Advantages: similar entry cost to BIAB
Easier to handle, more controllable
Easy cleanup with no bag to wash (I just rinse the hopsock and use immediately as a ..... hopsock  )
Less loss to trub so $$$ savings over the brewing year

Another finding I haven't yet posted AFAIK, the main mash has NO PERCEPTIBLE temp drop during mashing as we have a double walled system happening here. In fact with a bit of judicious urn use the outer jacket of wort can be initialised at a degree or more warmer than the inner mash, so a 1.5 hour mash with no temp drop should be achievable. Of course the system is lagged as I did with BIAB


----------



## Fat Bastard

kymba said:


> FB if you have the spare voile laying around try 2 or 3 layers for the sides and a single layer for the bottom
> 
> last weekend i was having a cnt of a time recirculating with my old 2 layer bag. i had to get out the new bag mid mash and do a space dock into another bucket lined with my single layer bag. once that was sorted it was unstoppable




Bit late now!






"collapsable bucket"

We'll see how it goes tomorrow. That cotton duck is virtually impervious to water once it's wet. I once grabbed a square of it to filter some chicken stock I made and it took nearly 2 hours for 6 litres to get through it! Works well for puddings and boiled sausages though. I'm hoping it does what I want for mashing too!

Thinking about holding 7 litres back from the strike water for mashing, sparging and giving it a good press with a potato masher. Squeezing the bag shouldn't be neccesary.


----------



## Goofinder

The way I see it is the fundamental difference between 2/3V and BIAB is that in 2/3V you remove the wort from the mash (and capture it in another vessel), and in BIAB you remove the grain from the mash (leaving the wort behind).

Using a bucket/solid sided bag doesn't really change much, and indeed a bucket with holes can be used in a 2/3V system (where the wort is removed from the mash).

There is nothing revolutionary here, using a bucket is just an evolution of the 'bag' designed to overcome problems with handling a dripping bag full of 65C grain. That's not to say that it's not a good idea, and as is the case with most developments they are blindingly obvious once someone has come up with them and put them to the test.


----------



## Bribie G

Yes, things that now seem like the boringly bloody obvious just didn't register on the radar in former times. For example they came sooooo close to BIAB in the days of Dave Line in the UK in the 60s / 70s with their grain bag that lined their Electrim boilers, but the lightbulb didn't come on.


Fat Bastard, did you actually make that? Man that is radical, I love it. BIASB (Brew in a soft bucket ) B) 

Brew day report please


----------



## felten

Fat Bastard said:


> "collapsable bucket"
> 
> We'll see how it goes tomorrow. That cotton duck is virtually impervious to water once it's wet. I once grabbed a square of it to filter some chicken stock I made and it took nearly 2 hours for 6 litres to get through it! Works well for puddings and boiled sausages though. I'm hoping it does what I want for mashing too!
> 
> Thinking about holding 7 litres back from the strike water for mashing, sparging and giving it a good press with a potato masher. Squeezing the bag shouldn't be neccesary.


Very interested to see how you go with that.


----------



## Bribie G

If you didn't make it, then where did you get if from? I've only spent $16 to get into Bucket in Urn- BIU - so no skin off my nose to try BIASB 

they might even let me back into BIABrewer.info h34r:


----------



## Fat Bastard

Goofinder said:


> Using a bucket/solid sided bag doesn't really change much, and indeed a bucket with holes can be used in a 2/3V system (where the wort is removed from the mash).
> 
> There is nothing revolutionary here, using a bucket is just an evolution of the 'bag' designed to overcome problems with handling a dripping bag full of 65C grain. That's not to say that it's not a good idea, and as is the case with most developments they are blindingly obvious once someone has come up with them and put them to the test.



Evolution/Revolution. There is very little revolutionary any more. I'm coming into this with a fresh set of eyes, tomorrow will be my 3rd AG brew, and the first since I've tasted my own AG brew! I'm just trying to tune the process to my own circumstances, which is much like I do in my job in high tech manufacturing, most of which is surprisingly low tech.



Bribie G said:


> Fat Bastard, did you actually make that? Man that is radical, I love it. BIASB (Brew in a soft bucket ) B)
> 
> Brew day report please



Hah! I stitched the duck by hand last night and went around to my mum's tonight to get her to run a couple of rows of stitches with the '69 model Lemair (I'm not given to an appreciation of sewing machines, but this one is a cool unit with it's 2 tone pastel blue and white paint job). Stitching the base gave her a conniption though!




felten said:


> Very interested to see how you go with that.



Will try to get some pics. I'm operating single handed tomorrow, the missus is going out early so beers and heavy rock all day!


----------



## yardy

Bribie G said:


> Aha on re reading, I see where the confusion lies for Yardy Et Al, a lot of the photos ended up on Nala's thread where he is doing something similar.
> So putting it all together;
> 
> BIU (bucket in urn) is basically BIAB with a "solid" bag.
> The idea is that the grain is allowed to form a proper grain bed so the wort runs through the bed, not whooshing out of the sides of the bag.
> 
> I made the "solid bag" out of a Masters-brand 20L pail drilled at the bottom and fitted with a woolies $8 strainer hoofed into shape then wrapped in a hop bag for an extra fine "strain" and secured with some silicone hose. The latter two I already have, and they get used for their original purposes when not part of the BIU setup.
> 
> *With big beers a wee sparge may also be performed if desired.* At the end, the bucket is removed completely and the grain tipped out and the components retrieved. BIU has done its work.
> 
> Advantages: similar entry cost to BIAB
> Easier to handle, more controllable
> Easy cleanup with no bag to wash (I just rinse the hopsock and use immediately as a ..... hopsock  )
> Less loss to trub so $$$ savings over the brewing year
> 
> Another finding I haven't yet posted AFAIK, the main mash has NO PERCEPTIBLE temp drop during mashing as we have a double walled system happening here. In fact with a bit of judicious urn use the outer jacket of wort can be initialised at a degree or more warmer than the inner mash, so a 1.5 hour mash with no temp drop should be achievable. Of course the system is lagged as I did with BIAB




gday bribie, thanks for the post, some confusion with your mash though, you mention a sparge is done with big beers, what's your standard mash regime if you don't mind me asking ?

cheers

Yard


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Bribie G said:


> If you didn't make it, then where did you get if from? I've only spent $16 to get into Bucket in Urn- BIU - so no skin off my nose to try BIASB
> 
> they might even let me back into BIABrewer.info h34r:




Hey Bribie,

Did you end up buying another bucket and drilling lots of little holes in it, or your work around was the strainer? Also i was wondering are recirculating the entire batch to try and clear up the wort and rinse extra sugars trapped and how long is this taking you.

Cheers 

BDB


----------



## Spork

Interesting thread, has got me thinking. I decided on BIAB because it seemed a simpler system and required less space (to store and to use) than 3v. Whether the "bag" is flexible or solid doesn't really affect that, as either way it will fit inside the urn. 

Doing what Bribie is doing creates a filter and the sweet wort is brighter. But then you boil the wort for 60-90 minutes, and put hops in it. To my (limited) understanding this will reintroduce particles (hop matter and hot break) back into the wort. On this assumption, would any benefit be gained by "filtering" the bitter wort back through the grain bed? If this were done with the wort still at or close to 100c would that be enough to prevent any infection from the spent grain?


----------



## Tim F

I definitely wouldn't do that Spork - you might get away with it but there can be a lot of nasties on grain that you wouldn't want to get into your fermenter without a good long boil. You always get break material and hops in the boil for any method and the standard method for dealing with it is to stir your kettle into a whirlpool after the boil, then let it settle. This concentrates all the break material in the center of the kettle so you can slowly run off from the edges without picking any up. There are various filter options for your kettle too to help in straining out hops etc.


----------



## Spork

OK, thx. I figured there must be a reason it wasn't common practice already.


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## pk.sax

Spork, seems to me you will end up reabsorbing wort in the spent grain if you did this. Be a better idea to have some sort of filter online if you really want to get rid of all that. However, whirlpooling and later crash chilling beer precipitates all those particles anyway.


----------



## Bribie G

I havent done the million hole method yet, I'm already accumulating a heap of dead vessels with holes in the wrong place h34r: 
On the subject of hop debris and break in the wort, I use a hopsock to reduce hop debris - it's actually the same Craftbrewer "grain" bag that did duty in the false bottom so more like a hop swimming enclosure than a hop sock. 






Then after floccing, when the remaining trub in the kettle is cool enough, I filter through a sieve, either through hop flowers or through that exact same baggie. Love my baggies  






So I lose very little to trub nowadays.


----------



## MarkBastard

I should have some interesting photos today or tomorrow. I've been busy making a setup like this, including a fine mesh (splatter guard) to line the bottom of the bucket, that has a fair amount of medium sized holes. I also 'accidentally' picked up two lids for the handy pail I bought yesterday, so I'm going to make the first lid have a lot of holes and the second lid only have one hole. The lids are stacked on top of each other. The pump outlet connects to the single hole in the top lid, and the bottom lid acts as a wort return where it sprays out more like a shower with fairly even distribution over the whole mash surface area. The only thing I'm yet to do is make a rock solid system to suspending the bucket above the urn without the use of a rope / pulley system. The pale actually has two sort of slots in it that line up with the crown urn handles so I've got something I think will work well.

The pump I got off ebay is awesome, very small, very quiet, very low electricity usage but the perfect performance for what I'm after.


----------



## Tim F

You may find you want a ball valve to sit on the pump so you can throttle it back a bit. So far with my bucket in bucket kinda design I've found if the pump is going faster than the bucket can drain it ends up running dry.


----------



## MarkBastard

My pump says to only restrict the outlet side i think. I'll see how i go anyway.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mark^Bastard said:


> Fair enough mate, but I'm interested in your pure 'real bag' vs 'bucket with mesh bottom' opinion.
> 
> I find BIAB in its 'purist form' sounds good on paper only. In reality it's almost never a one vessel system unless you're cheating and under presenting the gear you use just to make out like BIAB is awesome.
> 
> What issues did you have with a bucket in urn setup? A lot of people are negative about it but I don't think anyone has really said why yet. I'm planning on giving it a go with an open mind and if it doesn't work out for me I'll let people know, but if there are some hidden issues with it why can't people state them to save me even giving it a go?



I had and have no issues with the bucket in pot solution beyond finding it harder to do and harder to make than just a bag, as I and others have said a number of times, but people seem to be glossing past - this isn't some sort of "blindingly obvious in retrospect" type innovation of the BIAB method - this was tried before BIAB was brought to maturity and worked, but then people, including me, tried the bag and found it better and easier. BIAB didn't somehow magically start as some sort of default for single vessel systems, it _became_ the default because it was generally considered easier.

I personally find BIAB to be just as easy and simple in practise as its represented to be. I use a bag, a pot, a burner and a hook to hang the bag off. I lift the bag by hand, no pulleys etc involved (and i can do it with just one hand for most brews) and hang it on a hook over the pot till it stops dripping - bit of a squeeze, empty it in the bin and toss it in the sink.

I mainly think that in general, if you have a pot/urn and a bucket that fits neatly into it as required by the sort of system you are talking about - then you already have a system - a 2/3V system that will give you clearer wort and better efficiency than you'll get from your pot in pot system and will allow you to take advantage of all the existing knowledge and lessons learned by other brewers that are out there already, no need to wonder if things will work, how they will work etc. All you need to do is let go of the BIAB paradigm, if its not serving your purposes, why cling to it?

If you want to do it for the sense of adventure or some such thing, fair enough - i have no doubts it'll work well enough. But its my opinion that there are other choices that are probably better, and as for easier... Well, whether a solid inner vessel is easier than a bag or not, is going to be absolutely about a particular brewer's attitude, there's no way at all that its a step change or an obvious improvement - its just another way to brew that you might or might not like better.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Solid sided bag brew day report:

Good:

The solid sided bag worked well, and didn't split!
As reported by others here, the mash temperature seemed to remain more constant than when using a voile sheet
The bag drained well when I drained the wort from the kettle into the holding bucket.
The sparge worked as planned (see below)
Getting the bag out after sparging was much easier than with a voille bag, as was squeezing it. The wort left by the voille bottom instead of going all over my hands. I found gloves weren't necessary, and I avoided burning my fat little fingies. Mostly.

The Bad:

Temperature controlling the mash was difficult. The temp on my controller generally read 4 degrees hotter than the centre of the mash. Once I'd worked out that this was the case, I left t alone and it was fine. Power only came on 3 or 4 times in 90 minutes, and overshot twice. A pump with the potato squasher brought it back down to target very quickly. Ramping up to 75 for mashout took longer than previously too.

The grain bed formed for sparging wasn't great with big cracks around the edges






Easily fixed with a bit of pre sparge potato masher work.

Undershot my pre boil gravity by a long way (0.020). I decided to give the mash a good press with the potato squasher post sparge, and then squeeze the bag against the false bottom. The grain absorbed 0.6l/Kg as opposed to the brewmate default of 1l/Kg. Ended up with 26 litres post boil instead of 24.

I think I'll persevere with this method for a while as actually handling the bag is so much easier than a full voille bag or sheet. Hitting the volumes and gravities is an experience thing, and let's face it, this is only my third BIAB brew. I've been tossing up going to an esky mash tun system, but I think this way has potential for me, especially as I'm stuck brewing in a small space. Adding a pump to the system will increase the convenience, and give the option to recirculate the the wort, as well as increase safety. 

Apart from missing my target gravities and volumes, the brewday was the easiest I've done yet!


----------



## felten

Interesting FB. I'm thinking even with a stiff bag like that you're still going to get channeling around the sides when you sparge. Not much of a problem if you're batch sparging, but it is when you try to fly sparge.

Also that 1L/kg absorption is common with 3v setups, BIAB usually gets around half that like you found.


BTW I wouldn't try to temperature control the mash during the sach rest. Just calc your strike temp, mash in, and insulate the urn with some blankets.


----------



## bum

felten said:


> Not much of a problem if you're batch sparging, but it is when you try to fly sparge.


FSIAB? Now I've heard everything.  

Guys, if you'd like your brew days to have the hallmarks of more traditional tun set-ups there's a really simple way to go about it - and the best part is that someone has already done the research for you...

An added side benefit might be that if people stop talking about brewing like mad-scientists/lunatics then _maybe_ some of the people whose advice made this board great might come back.


----------



## MarkBastard

Pretty sure the guys that left did so because of trolls like you bum.


----------



## bum

I'm pretty sure I fucked your mum.


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## MarkBastard

you should have done your due diligence. you're pretty sure it was my mum, but I know for a fact it was my dad.


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## goomboogo

Mark^Bastard said:


> Pretty sure the guys that left did so because of trolls like you bum.



He can be landed with many a label, but troll isn't one of them.


----------



## bum

Sorry, his dick was about the same size as hers so I assumed. My bad.

My point, unsurprisingly, went unnoticed of course. This here is what trolling looks like and is not at all what I do.

It must be said that your horse is _awfully_ tall for someone who spends half his time here arguing too.

[EDIT: missing word]


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## MarkBastard

You are a troll bum. The very definition.


----------



## bum

No, Mark. I am not. My rhetoric may be more forceful than you'd like but there is a firm held belief behind pretty much everything I post*. I carry no responsibility for the fact that you can neither see nor understand that. 

Again, the "understanding" part above will be seen as trolling - it is not - it is central to my point and essential (assuming the point should be made in the first place, which I'll admit is debatable - certainly nothing to do with OP but I didn't start the OT, Mark).

*I was going to qualify this statement with "(outside of the Off Topic forum)" but, frankly, half of the things I post there I mean even more.


----------



## argon

Mark^Bastard said:


> My pump says to only restrict the outlet side i think. I'll see how i go anyway.


which pump did you end up getting Mark... i assume the brown one (DC 12V Electric Centrifugal Water Pump 103 GPH (P-38I)) like this;


----------



## MarkBastard

Yep it's exactly that one except it isn't threaded.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ME:L:OC:AU:1123

I have done test runs just using water and get really good drainage. If the grain restricts the drainage to the point that the bucket starts filling up faster than it can empty, I'll just turn the pump off to let it drain out. My first run is really going to be experimental to learn the things that everyone seems to know here but no one is willing to communicate. If it all works well but the pump is faster than the draining, I'll probably look at restricting the flow next time. I need to buy longer tubing for the outlet side anyway.


----------



## MarkBastard

Oh and I got the info regarding restricting the outlet from another site that sold pumps that looked visually identical but I believe it was a UK site. The specs matched up too so I figured they were the same pump. But I may be wrong.


----------



## matho

:icon_offtopic: 

Mark or anyone else who has those brown pumps i would be very interested in seeing the impeller and magnet of these pumps, that is of course if you don't mind taking the thing apart to take a photo

cheers matho


----------



## Tanga

I'd love to see pics and more on how you set it up Mark.

Is this the one you ended up using math?


----------



## matho

Tanga said:


> I'd love to see pics and more on how you set it up Mark.
> 
> Is this the one you ended up using math?


nah i have ordered a 809 march pump but im thinking of looking into the solarproject ones because I might be building another braumiser for a mate and i would like to keep the cost down


----------



## MarkBastard

Hey matho, do you reckon if I take it apart it'll have a negative impact on the pump? If you're sure it won't I don't mind taking it apart. I think it's held together by some screws so I'm okay with taking them apart I guess.

Thanks for the feedback Tanga. I took some pics of what I have so far, I'll see if I can transfer them off my phone.


----------



## NickB

Mark, if it's anything like the March 809, you should be fine to dismantle. Just watch out for the O ring that seals between the internals and the outer part you remove.

Cheers


----------



## MarkBastard

Here's a few of the pics I took.

This is the 'false bottom'. Basically drilled holes in the bottom of the bucket, cut up an IKEA splatter guard and then cut some 6mm ID / 8MM OD gas line long ways to form a fairly rigid rim around the edge of the splatter guard. This perfectly seals it against the side of the bucket and should stop any grain from getting around it and also stop it from floating up off the bottom. However it can still easily be removed for cleaning just by pulling up the handle.




This is the lower lid with holes drilled into it to act as a wort return. I started off with just the small holes and it worked great however if the bucket was on an angles the wort would go over the sides too much, so I cut the big holes, but that ended up being a bad idea as the wort just goes straight for the big holes now. I'm going to drill out the small holes into medium holes and I think that should result in fairly equal wort distribution and create a shower like affect into the bucket. The upper lid is the same lid but with only a hole in the centre for the wort return tube to go into.



This is a *mock up only* of bucket suspension using the urns in built handles. I am going to using some different wood to make something that fits very snuggly into the handles and very snuggly into the bucket so hopefully it'll support the full weight and not allow the bucket to move around at all. I did prefer the idea that someone here came up with which was to use wire hooks attached to the bottom of the bucket, but I don't have any stainless wire and if just using two shaped planks of wood works it'll be easier to construct at least for the first iteration of this design.



By the way total spend so far:
- Bucket: $13
- Splatter guard: $6
- Gas line approx: $1 (I had this already)

And pump related (I am going to test this system with and without the use of a pump):
- Pump: $40 (to the door in AU)
- Wort return tube: $3
- Hose clamps: $5

So without the pump this may end up cheaper than buying a BIAB bag.


----------



## Tim F

Mark I reckon you will have overflow problems and need that valve on the outlet, I did. But i wonder now if it would be easier to use a gate valve instead of a ball valve, I find it hard to tell when you have a ball valve open just a crack vs completely closed. The other thing you can do is have an overflow hole near the top of the bucket so it just comes out the side if it backs up too much.


----------



## MarkBastard

I think I'll definitely try and regulate it if I need to but for the first batch if the bucket starts filling up I'll just turn the pump off and consider it 'batch' recirculation assisted by a pump rather than a system more akin to fly sparging.

My main focus is to test a very simple full volume single infusion mash using the bucket instead of a bag. I'm going to let it drain fully and measure SG and only after that will I do recirc, then a recirc/mash out, measuring volume and SG of both.

Basically the only reason I'm even experimenting with a pump is because I bought one to use for another purpose and I thought I may as well see what difference it would make. If I don't gain much in efficiency or clarity I'll be cutting that process out completely, hence I'm trying not to buy anything too expensive or spending too much time trying to perfect it (unless I decide after the first batch that using the pump is awesome and I want to tweak further from there).

Thoughts on pinching the outlet tube to restrict flow? Or even in the inlet tube?


----------



## MarkBastard

Also do you know if using a lower voltage AC adapter makes the pump slower?


----------



## matho

Mark^Bastard said:


> Hey matho, do you reckon if I take it apart it'll have a negative impact on the pump? If you're sure it won't I don't mind taking it apart. I think it's held together by some screws so I'm okay with taking them apart I guess.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback Tanga. I took some pics of what I have so far, I'll see if I can transfer them off my phone.



Mark i won't ask you to do anything your not comfortable with, I wouldn't think it would hurt the pump but then again who knows so thanks but don't worry about it, I might just get one down the track anyway as another pump isn't going to go to waste B) 

cheers matho


----------



## Tim F

I wondered about the voltage thing too but someone told me it isn't good for the pump? Not too sure if thats true but better safe than sorry. Pinching the tube is a good idea though, maybe with a shifting spanner or something you can adjust like that? I'll give that a go myself I reckon


----------



## MarkBastard

matho, yeah I don't feel super comfortable. I can tell you though that it's a very quiet pump and seems quite powerful for the size and price. If you need to know anything else about it let me know (or videos etc).

Tim, yeah I have a very small G clamp that I figure I could set up against the tube and tighted it / relax it to control the flow. Should work in theory. A shifter should work as well I reckon.


----------



## tavas

Mark^Bastard said:


> Thoughts on pinching the outlet tube to restrict flow? Or even in the inlet tube?




Never restrict the inlet of a centrifugal pump. It will cause cavitation and premature wear. you would be better to restrict the outlet.

Reducing the voltage will only lead to overheating the motor at higher current.


----------



## MarkBastard

Cheers tavas.


----------



## keifer33

matho said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> Mark or anyone else who has those brown pumps i would be very interested in seeing the impeller and magnet of these pumps, that is of course if you don't mind taking the thing apart to take a photo
> 
> cheers matho



This is as far as I am willing to pull it apart as I am trying to sell it (Shameless self plug - $20 delivered in Aust new never used  )


----------



## Feldon

SolarProject, the online UK shop that sells the little brown pumps, says that they run on 9 volts DC up to 14 volts DC (lower the voltage the slower it runs). I recall the owner wrote somewhere on a UK HB forum that he's run one for years at higher voltage than 14 volts (but I guess doing so yourself might void any warranty)

Full specs at http://www.solarproject.co.uk/page2.html


----------



## MarkBastard

Thanks Feldon.

Mine looks like the SP14/10. Reckon that bloke gets them from China and they're the exact same pump from the same manufacturer? I mean they're visually identical.


----------



## BlueSky

If it helps any, here's a link to the thread on JBK re. the little beige, Solar Projects pump... >>PUMP<<

Yup, you can use a variable DC voltage to control it ...here's another thread for ya >>CLICKY<<

And IIRC it is o.k. to throttle/restrict the output as a means of controlling flow ...confirmed by the Solar Projects supplier in that first link.

BTW, they do a more powerful 14Watt version too >>ANUDDER CLICKY<<

Cheers from Blighty!
Steve


----------



## MarkBastard

that is the best avatar i have ever seen, i am stuck in a booby trance


----------



## BlueSky

LMAO  

Well, you guys in Oz seem to have broader minds than over here and I had noticed a bit of a booby theme on this forum  

Loads of good info guys... keep it up!


----------



## stux

Mark^Bastard said:


> that is the best avatar i have ever seen, i am stuck in a booby trance



+∞


----------



## matho

keifer33 said:


> This is as far as I am willing to pull it apart as I am trying to sell it (Shameless self plug - $20 delivered in Aust new never used  )



thanks for that keifer, I would buy the pump off you but having just bought a march pump another pump turning up might not be appreciated


----------



## Tim F

So do you reckon that looks ok matho? Or is that the magnet exposed?


----------



## the_new_darren

keifer33 said:


> This is as far as I am willing to pull it apart as I am trying to sell it (Shameless self plug - $20 delivered in Aust new never used  )
> 
> View attachment 49673




OOOOOH. I can see nasties hiding in there. You know, the sort of bacteria that thrives in hot, sugary conditions!

cheers

TND


----------



## the_new_darren

I reckon Thirsty Boy and Bum have hit the nail on the head.

So much discussion about a method that was routinely practiced by homebrewers more than 30 years ago!!!


John: Look Ive grown a new fruit?
Andrew: Thats not a new fruit, its an orange!!
John: Its not an orange, its a yellow Babouche!!!!
Andrew: Yeah....whatever


----------



## matho

Tim F said:


> So do you reckon that looks ok matho? Or is that the magnet exposed?


I can't tell tim but if ppl are using it without reporting anything wrong then it probably OK, I'm just getting this taste in the back of my tongue almost in my throat that i haven't had in my beers before and i know that beer very well as its kinda my house beer 

BTW the new darren the pump is only used during mashing so the wort will be boiled for over an hour anything that can survive that deserves to be there

cheers matho


----------



## the_new_darren

matho said:


> I can't tell tim but if ppl are using it without reporting anything wrong then it probably OK, I'm just getting this taste in the back of my tongue almost in my throat that i haven't had in my beers before and i know that beer very well as its kinda my house beer
> 
> BTW the new darren the pump is only used during mashing so the wort will be boiled for over an hour anything that can survive that deserves to be there
> 
> cheers matho




No probs Matho. However, there is plenty of evidence that shows that infections can be derived (and often are) from crevices under false-bottoms/mashtuns even in major breweries. The way I look at it is that the "heat-resistent bugs" are able to get a stranglehold and increase in numbers in the tun. It just takes one or two to lodge themselves in a "cooler" part of the boiling aparatus and voila, infection you have. A non-sanitary pump will most likely be a fantastic place for this to happen.

I doubt your "flavour" you are detecting is bacterially derived as it would bgenerally take a few batches without cleaning the pump before you would see problems. I would guess its plastic from the pump or the lines you are using that are not heat-resistent.

cheers

tnd


----------



## DKS

the_new_darren said:


> No probs Matho. However, there is plenty of evidence that shows that infections can be derived (and often are) from crevices under false-bottoms/mashtuns even in major breweries. The way I look at it is that the "heat-resistent bugs" are able to get a stranglehold and increase in numbers in the tun. It just takes one or two to lodge themselves in a "cooler" part of the boiling aparatus and voila, infection you have. A non-sanitary pump will most likely be a fantastic place for this to happen.
> 
> I doubt your "flavour" you are detecting is bacterially derived as it would bgenerally take a few batches without cleaning the pump before you would see problems. I would guess its plastic from the pump or the lines you are using that are not heat-resistent.
> 
> cheers
> 
> tnd


Very interesting "the new darren", could you list any links to these heat resistant bugs? I think I have one and would like to eliminate it. 
Daz


----------



## the_new_darren

Daz,

Lactobacillus sp and Pediococcus sp are the most common heat resistant spoliage organisms. Like I mentioned, it only takes a vouple to get through the process and off it goes.

cheers

tnd


----------



## MarkBastard

The incredible detail I'm getting with regards to why this isn't a good idea just keeps growing and growing. I think I'm going to make a list as a sort of FAQ so that if anyone is thinking of giving it a go later, they can take these important facts into consideration before hand so that they make the correct decision for their own circumstances.

A working draft:
1 - People did this 30 years ago. If you have any superstitions about doing things that people did 30 years ago, it may be best to avoid.
2 - It is 'harder to do' than BIAB according to some people.
3 - It is 'harder to make' than BIAB according to some people. (I disagree with this one already from experience, emphatically.)
4 - If you are interesting in this concept you are the cause of some good ex-posters leaving this forum. Can you live with that?
5 - If you have a bucket you should just be a 3V brewer. Why? Well just because.

Feel free to add to it guys. You too Darren, have fun mate. You are on my ignore list anyway so it won't bother me at all.


----------



## Tim F

> A working draft:
> 1 - People did this 30 years ago. If you have any superstitions about doing things that people did 30 years ago, it may be best to avoid.
> 2 - It is 'harder to do' than BIAB according to some people.
> 3 - It is 'harder to make' than BIAB according to some people. (I disagree with this one already from experience, emphatically.)
> 4 - If you are interesting in this concept you are the cause of some good ex-posters leaving this forum. Can you live with that?
> 5 - If you have a bucket you should just be a 3V brewer. Why? Well just because.


6 - You'll get bacteria in your pump that can not be killed by any method known to man


----------



## technoicon

Mark^Bastard said:


> The incredible detail I'm getting with regards to why this isn't a good idea just keeps growing and growing. I think I'm going to make a list as a sort of FAQ so that if anyone is thinking of giving it a go later, they can take these important facts into consideration before hand so that they make the correct decision for their own circumstances.
> 
> A working draft:
> 1 - People did this 30 years ago. If you have any superstitions about doing things that people did 30 years ago, it may be best to avoid.
> 2 - It is 'harder to do' than BIAB according to some people.
> 3 - It is 'harder to make' than BIAB according to some people. (I disagree with this one already from experience, emphatically.)
> 4 - If you are interesting in this concept you are the cause of some good ex-posters leaving this forum. Can you live with that?
> 5 - If you have a bucket you should just be a 3V brewer. Why? Well just because.
> 
> Feel free to add to it guys. You too Darren, have fun mate. You are on my ignore list anyway so it won't bother me at all.



Hahahaha.. 

7 - 3v people might act like little kids and taunt you about your beer making.


----------



## bum

Mark^Bastard said:


> 5 - If you have a bucket you should just be a 3V brewer. Why? Well just because.


I think you are, quite possibly deliberately, missing the point on this one. What confuses me is when some (perhaps not you, I cannot recall) state they are interested in following this method in order to chase a 3v-like grain bed to filter their wort but they just rip the bloody bucket out and the liquor runs out in significantly less time anyway. What further confuses me is when people say "I'm sick of pulling the bloody bag out" (fair position) but then are happy to pull the bucket out. More confusion still ensues when people then go on to say how they are also chasing a more 3v-like sparge from the bucket - unless you've got a second bucket to soak the first(tun/bag-ish) bucket in for a period of time then you're still just rinsing (and if you're doing this I'll ask you to count the vessels you're using and cleaning). As already stated by someone vastly more informed than I (and someone who is much less prone to voice any sort of disapproval so that should have your ears pricking up already) you're doing away with many of the simplicities of BIAB(ag) when converting to BIAB(ucket) (bloody hell, having to make that distinction is reason enough to do away with the idea) or BIAU or whatever nonsense you guys end up calling it. 

You know, good luck and good beer to anyone who is doing it but don't pretend you're doing something better - you're inheriting the bulk of the flaws of both methods and doing away with many of the positives.

I am looking forward to "HELP! Stuck sparge in stove-top beach-pail in a Big-W stockpot!" threads though.


----------



## technoicon

go find a good 3v thread... ffs


----------



## bum

Good luck around here, mate.


----------



## ekul

I was loking for a recipe when this popped up http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...1074&st=120

thought it might be of interest to some.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mark^Bastard said:


> The incredible detail I'm getting with regards to why this isn't a good idea just keeps growing and growing. I think I'm going to make a list as a sort of FAQ so that if anyone is thinking of giving it a go later, they can take these important facts into consideration before hand so that they make the correct decision for their own circumstances.
> 
> A working draft:
> 1 - People did this 30 years ago. If you have any superstitions about doing things that people did 30 years ago, it may be best to avoid.
> 2 - It is 'harder to do' than BIAB according to some people.
> 3 - It is 'harder to make' than BIAB according to some people. (I disagree with this one already from experience, emphatically.)
> 4 - If you are interesting in this concept you are the cause of some good ex-posters leaving this forum. Can you live with that?
> 5 - If you have a bucket you should just be a 3V brewer. Why? Well just because.
> 
> Feel free to add to it guys. You too Darren, have fun mate. You are on my ignore list anyway so it won't bother me at all.



Mark, thing is - you've got it right. No one (until bum just did anyway) has articulated a good reason why this wont actually work, because having just gone back through the thread, nobody has tried to do so. No one actually thinks (or at least has said that they think) it wont work. It will work. Its a perfectly reasonable way to go about mashing and lautering and no one has said anything different. Not even bum, he didn't say it wouldn't work, just that it wont work particularly well for the reasons that people seem to want it to work.

*Will it be easier than a bag?* Debatable at the least. Maybe - I think not, but what's easy for me might not be easy for someone else.

*Will it sparge as well as a traditional fly sparge system*? Not the way you are planning to do it and not without considerable dicking around. But it probably will sparge better than a biab bag. Not i think better than a dunk sparged bag, but better than the "pour over" methods.

*Will it make clearer pre-boil wort than a bag?* if you vorlauff enough, or you recirculate during the mash, yes it will.

Are there other ways to achieve what it seems to me (us?) that this idea is trying to achieve, but do it more effectively and with either no, or very little, extra equipment or difficulty? Yes there are.

None of that means it wont work or that its actually a bad idea. It _will_ work and its not a "bad" idea - It just means that maybe it wont work quite as well as you'd like and that its very possible there are a few somewhat _better_ ideas to choose from.

I actually quite like the set-up you have made for yourself. I think you will encounter some problems with it, but nothing insurmountable or so cut and dried that i might not just be wrong about them. I think its just the ticket if getting rid of the bag is your primary goal and all the other stuff just falls under "fringe benefits"

Good luck with it

TB

oh - PS. i dont at all like your "shower" wort return. Its nicely made and looks cool, but HSA is bad - not an issue really for straight mashing, but if you are going to recirculate for an hour??? all that splashing for all that time is way less than optimal. have a look at the other re-circulating system threads and see how its generally done. lots of options all based around even distribution of the incoming wort and minimal splash. The shower is cool for just a sparge - I'd re-think it as a wort return for a recirculating mash.


----------



## felten

isn't it just like a ghetto braumeister?


----------



## MarkBastard

Updated list:

1 - People did this 30 years ago. If you have any superstitions about doing things that people did 30 years ago, it may be best to avoid.
2 - It is 'harder to do' than BIAB according to some people.
3 - It is 'harder to make' than BIAB according to some people. (I disagree with this one already from experience, emphatically.)
4 - If you are interesting in this concept you are the cause of some good ex-posters leaving this forum. Can you live with that?
5 - If you have a bucket you should just be a 3V brewer. Why? Well just because.
6 - If using a pump you'll get bacteria in your pump that can not be killed by any method known to man
7 - 3v people might act like little kids and taunt you about your beer making.
8 - The acronym for Brew In a Bucket is the same as Brew In a Bag. This alone is reason enough not to do it.
9 - People may end up making "HELP! Stuck sparge in stove-top beach-pail in a Big-W stockpot!" threads. Presumably this would further drive off the mythical former posters.




Thirsty Boy said:


> Mark, thing is - you've got it right. No one (until bum just did anyway) has articulated a good reason why this wont actually work, because having just gone back through the thread, nobody has tried to do so. No one actually thinks (or at least has said that they think) it wont work. It will work. Its a perfectly reasonable way to go about mashing and lautering and no one has said anything different. Not even bum, he didn't say it wouldn't work, just that it wont work particularly well for the reasons that people seem to want it to work.
> 
> *Will it be easier than a bag?* Debatable at the least. Maybe - I think not, but what's easy for me might not be easy for someone else.
> 
> *Will it sparge as well as a traditional fly sparge system*? Not the way you are planning to do it and not without considerable dicking around. But it probably will sparge better than a biab bag. Not i think better than a dunk sparged bag, but better than the "pour over" methods.
> 
> *Will it make clearer pre-boil wort than a bag?* if you vorlauff enough, or you recirculate during the mash, yes it will.
> 
> Are there other ways to achieve what it seems to me (us?) that this idea is trying to achieve, but do it more effectively and with either no, or very little, extra equipment or difficulty? Yes there are.
> 
> None of that means it wont work or that its actually a bad idea. It _will_ work and its not a "bad" idea - It just means that maybe it wont work quite as well as you'd like and that its very possible there are a few somewhat _better_ ideas to choose from.
> 
> I actually quite like the set-up you have made for yourself. I think you will encounter some problems with it, but nothing insurmountable or so cut and dried that i might not just be wrong about them. I think its just the ticket if getting rid of the bag is your primary goal and all the other stuff just falls under "fringe benefits"
> 
> Good luck with it
> 
> TB
> 
> oh - PS. i dont at all like your "shower" wort return. Its nicely made and looks cool, but HSA is bad - not an issue really for straight mashing, but if you are going to recirculate for an hour??? all that splashing for all that time is way less than optimal. have a look at the other re-circulating system threads and see how its generally done. lots of options all based around even distribution of the incoming wort and minimal splash. The shower is cool for just a sparge - I'd re-think it as a wort return for a recirculating mash.



Thanks TB, this is better feedback.

1 - Easier or not, that is what I am looking to find out with my experiment. None of the people that claim it will be less easy have explained why.
2 - Any actual sparging is something I'd only be planning on doing for the first batch if I don't hit my pre-boil volume. However I would like to note that it's not possible to do a dunk sparge in single-vessel BIAB, to be fair. So if I do a mini fly sparge in this system by say tipping a kettle of hot water into the hole in the top of the bucket that the pump normally goes into, that is a seriously easy thing to do compared to the BIAB alternative, and requires significantly less clean up and less vessels. If I end up needing to sparge(rinse) with 2L of water to reach my desired top up level then next time I will start with more water.
3 - Clearer wort, as I've mentioned a few times my intention is to focus mainly on using a bucket as an alternative to a bag, with a simple hoist and drain off (no sparge or recirc). However because I have a pump, I am going to test some after mash recirculation as well. Firstly an automated vorlauff using the pump, and then a recirculation to mash out temperatures for presumably extra grain rinsing. This is an experiment only, where I'll be measuring SG at different points and taking samples of wort in clear glasses to note the differences (if any) in clarity.

It is very important to note that it's an experiment only. As it's an experiment, the absolutely ideal outcome would be that the pump / recirculation is a waste of time from an efficiency and clarity point of view, as that would mean that I can do away with it and keep my setup as simple as possible in the future. But I figure doing experiments is a way to know for sure rather than blindly following what is said here (I have done that before only to find out that you actually get bad advice here a lot of the time, as opinions are regurgitated to the point of them being consensus despite not everyone having first hand experience in the matter).
4 - What are the ways to do what I'm trying to achieve more affectively with no or little extra equipment or difficulty?
5 - Any of my input into this thread is about me doing an experiment to see how affective this system will be due to not receiving the right kind of information from other posters that would educate me on its shortcomings without needing to experiment. If this information was available it would certainly have saved me some time and effort (not much though, as everything I've done so far has been really easy). Now that I'm most of the way there I won't be turning back without experimenting though.
6 - Yep, my primary goal is definitely getting rid of the bag. I don't like bags, installing a sky hook in my brew area would be more effort and more costly than buying / making an eski mash tun. However I don't really have enough room to store a 3V setup either, so there's no real clear alternative for me. I can't see any benefit to the bag from a cleaning or handling point of view (this I don't know from experience yet) or constructions of bag / bucket (this I do know from experience now, the bucket I made was far easier to construct than my attemps at sewing a bag). And yes anything else I would consider a fringe benefit, if I measure and find said fringe benefits.
7 - Regarding the shower wort return, thanks for this feedback. It's the part of the design I'm least happy with and I was wondering about HSA. I won't be recirculating for an hour though. I'll be leaving the bucket in the urn for an hour just like with a bag, no pumps, no stirring, just fully lagged and sitting there. Then the bucket will be hoisted on to wooden supports to allow draining. I'll only start the recirculation process as an experiment to measure any extra clarity or efficiency gained in doing so. I imagine it would be 15 minutes max.

Do you think it'll be okay for that? If not what about if I cut it into a smaller disk that floats on the surface of the mash and has bigger holes?


----------



## ShredMaster

Mark, I'm currently working out the process on a Bucket-In-Bucket system which I inherited from an old brewer from way back - (http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58730&st=0). Personally I don't care if it's easier, harder or a wierd mix of the two, I have the buckets already and I'm going to get them working brilliantly. I have an esky lying around to make into a mashtun one day but not if I can see these buckets working well enough. Don't let the nay-sayers detract from the results of your experiment...

When I have used a bag, it was easy to clean, the bucket is a bit of a bitch in comparison, I'll sort out an easy way soon enough.

I like the idea of a recirculating pump, I have done mine manually with the jug but a pump would make it far easier especially if doing step-mash or ramping to mashout. I'm keen to hear how your experiments go with the pump and what you settle on as far as wort return (I used a plastic lid on the grain bed but it was literally a bit hit and miss).

Good luck mate!

Cheers,
Shred.


----------



## argon

One thing i certainly agree with is that the bucket will be easier to handle in the sense that it won't bulge and drip everywhere as a bag does as you pull it out. This was a large factor in me giving up the bag. 

As for the 15min recirc, you'll definitely get extra clarity as opposed to just pulling the grain out. How are you doing this, Prior to lifting or after. If after, i'd lift the bucket only to just at the level of the wort in the urn to minimise the splashing (and HSA) as the wort made it way through the grain bed and back into the urn. Or look at some way of allowing the wort to gently return to the urn


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## MarkBastard

Thanks Shred.

argon, yeah I found the same with the bucket and yeah this is my last attempt at single vessel brewing. If it doesn't work, I'm getting a mash tun and doing two vessel brewing. The reason I haven't gone straight to that is because this idea has piqued my interest as an easier and cheaper way to overcome the issues I have with the bag.

The bulging of the bag, the dripping, the lack of hook which requires me to use a second pot, tying it up on my vice on my garage bench so it can drain into the second pot. Then when I want to transfer from second pot to boiler worrying about it still dripping on the floor, making me think I need yet another pot to swap in there to catch drips!

I also find cleaning the bag an absolute pain, worse than cleaning out the boiler afterwards. I can't imagine I'd find cleaning the bucket a pain. When the filter is removed it's tiny and can be rinsed under a tap easily. The bucket itself is rigid and can be hosed / wiped out.

With recirc I was led to believe that the bucket would need to be at least at the level of the wort, or higher, to ensure recirculation occurs correctly. I intend to have it as close to the wort as realistically possible, so I guess at whatever the desired pre-boil volume is plus a centimetre for good measure.


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## stux

I think the problem you had with the bag was probably the lack of a skyhook

fair enuff. There was a reason I only did one BIAB without one


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## MarkBastard

For sure Stux, if I had a skyhook or could easily install one things could be very different.


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## Bribie G

I'm doing a brew today, probably not till after lunchtime but I'll put up a series of pictures again with comments about ease/difficulties/glitches etc. 

A skyhook with a controllable lifting system (not just a single pulley hoist and pray you can get it tied off quickly before your left hand slips) system and a pump would make the whole thing much easier. I'm still jugging. 

To me it's all about clarity into the kettle i.e. _remaining _in the kettle as it's a one vessel system. I really want to get away from the "just throw an extra half kilo of grain at it, and she'll be right" mindset. 

With any system you don't get free lunches. The various extremes seem to be 

Quick and easy and cheap to get into and throw a couple of extra sacks of grain and a wheelbarrow of hops at it over the course of a year which end up at the Luggage Point treatment plant.

High efficiency and yield but a heap of dicking around with multiple vessels and a rather nasty clean up at the end

High efficiency, not much dicking around as the whole thing is controlled by Arduino, PIDs, pumps, gold plated thrust nadger recirculating thrummets hand-programmed in Haskell and a titanium frame with built in hydraulic stabilisers, with an air conditioned control room to house the Linux server that runs the entire system, and you have a really high paying job with the Government to pay for all this bling, and preferably no family life as it took 3 years to design and put together. 

It all produces good beer at the end of the day, What Mark, Nala and to a certain degree myself are trying to achieve is more of a middle ground in efficiency vs dicking.


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## MarkBastard

Honestly what I'm going for is the easiest possible brew day for my circumstances. To the point where I'll take a hit in efficiency to not have to deal with a bag OR sparging if it comes to that. The problem with BIAB is if you have a low efficiency you need more grain, and more grain makes BIAB even more of a pain in the arse.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

Mark^Bastard said:


> ... makes BIAB even more of a pain in the arse.



You must be doing it wrong.  

If this endeavour results in a method of brewing that people find useful and interesting, then I am all for it. However, I am yet to find a circumstance _*in my brewery*_ where BIAB makes my bottom hurt.

It is important to find a way of brewing that works for you, if only so that you can then hang shit on all the other methods.


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## MarkBastard

Haha, true.

I don't see a clear overarching benefit to either method. They're both very similar, one with a bag and one with a bucket. It's nothing to get worked up about either way. Good to have options.


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## Bribie G

Another advantage of bucket in Urn (perhaps not bucket in keggle or bucket in wider pot) is that you get a nice thin water jacket around the bucket, especially if you use the Non-Bunnings Handy Pail. Sit it on a low trivet to protect the element and with the lid on. Therefore, as there is little or no exchange of contents between the bucket and the water jacket, if the jacket is maintained at mash or a degree higher temperature and checked a few times, with a bit of heat burst no doubt required, then the swaddling and doonah lagging method might not be necessary. Just a lighter urn slipover or "parka" could be the go, I have a shitload of that metallised foam sheet from Clark Rubber, might pop out and get some octopus straps or whatever they are called and do one up for this afternoon's brew and report. Now I only have the one urn it can just stay on there permanently, and for the boil as well.

With BIAB the mash is virtually in direct contact with the urn wall save for a layer of voil and temperature drop is a problem even with good lagging. Can't go past a heated water jacket you'd have to suppose.


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## bum

Bribie G said:


> Can't go past a heated water jacket you'd have to suppose.


In terms of physics, sure. Sounds reasonable. But how much effect does having volumes of water in your tun that are essentially isolated from the mash have? Or do you give the bucket the occasional lift? Assuming a gap width wide enough to have any serious insulating properties - you're talking a not insignificant amount of water, right? In the low order of litres, yeah?


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## MarkBastard

Bum, the handy pails are 20 litres and I am planning on starting with 30L of strike water, so yes there is a significant amount of water around the bucket that is potentially going to be a weak wort. Obviously somewhere between plain water and wort at the same SG as the wort in the bucket. Probably depends on how you work your mash paddle, whether you have a gap under the bucket, and whether heat from the element creates currents.

Although I like bribie's idea, I definitely will not be turning the element on at any point in an attempt to create a 'heat jacket' around the bucket.

However, with my bag I'd typically start with strike water at 69 degrees for a starting mash temperature of about 66 degrees. Considering the bucket has more mass than a bag I may have to start at 70 degrees, then add the bucket, which would say take the temperature down to 69 degrees for a 'true' strike temperature. I then add the grain to the inside of the bucket and mix it around as per normal. The water inside the bucket mixed with the cooler grain should then in theory by 66 degrees.

However, the water ouside the bucket, will it be 66 degrees or will it be somewhere between 69 and 66 degrees? I'd say it'd be closer to 69. It hasn't come in contact with the cooler grain, and if I haven't gone crazy with the mash paddle it should automatically be a slightly hotter jacket.

It may just work out that over the 60 minute mash this somewhat evens out. Who knows what affect it will have? With the lid on the pail as well, I'd be thinking the internal mash temperature is going to remain more consistent in a bucket than in an urn.

It would be really awesome if this was the case to the extent I no longer needed to lag the urn. I mean I have permanent lagging anyway but it'd be nice to not have to get the doona off the spare bed when I brew. Maybe it'll make enough of a difference that I can just throw a thick towel over the lid of the urn and only get 1 degree heat loss over a 60 minute mash compared to 1.5 degrees over a 60 minute mash with a bag + a doona?

I won't know until I try it.


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## pk.sax

easiest solution to avoid lifting bags/buckets is......

you guessed it, gravity 

Cheapest flow system to work with gravity is.... you guessed it, siphon from manifold/false bottom.

As with anything cheap and simple, they need precise use. BIAB is not precise, its a throw a demo hammer at the nut solution. It works, It overkills the problem, its very tolerant of mistakes.

This bucket in urn system is like this (from my perspective): You try to create a grain bed, then you risk upsetting it by lifting/moving it etc. By the time you've lifted it, its at a height that is most likely not very suitable for sparging, so bring it down and sparge into yet another vessel...

then, because you are not doing it straight into the kettle, you have to move the wort to the tun, pour/pump it. More work again. Its simple things, but they are more steps.

Normal 3 tier gravity brewing is simply opening and closing valves apart from the compulsory temp readings, mashing, doughing in, hops etc...

Clean up of a 3v Mash tun is as simple as that for the plastic pail mash tun you are using, tip it out, then hose it. Albeit, if you use a keggle mash tun, it can be direct fired too. Another advantage.

There are practical (sic) reasons to avoid the whole buckets and holes dick around. Now, if you were simply pinching pennies, yea a pail is cheaper/free. But so was my mash tun


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## MarkBastard

We are all aware that 3V and 4V systems exist so no need to point that out.



practicalfool said:


> This bucket in urn system is like this (from my perspective): You try to create a grain bed, then you risk upsetting it by lifting/moving it etc. By the time you've lifted it, its at a height that is most likely not very suitable for sparging, so bring it down and sparge into yet another vessel...


Wrong. The height of the bucket would be less than that of a mash tun that gravity feeds into a kettle. Your magical extra vessel for sparging makes no sense.



> then, because you are not doing it straight into the kettle, you have to move the wort to the tun, pour/pump it. More work again. Its simple things, but they are more steps.


The bucket drains straight into the kettle.



> Normal 3 tier gravity brewing is simply opening and closing valves apart from the compulsory temp readings, mashing, doughing in, hops etc...
> 
> Clean up of a 3v Mash tun is as simple as that for the plastic pail mash tun you are using, tip it out, then hose it. Albeit, if you use a keggle mash tun, it can be direct fired too. Another advantage.



This can be direct fired as well.



> There are practical (sic) reasons to avoid the whole buckets and holes dick around. Now, if you were simply pinching pennies, yea a pail is cheaper/free. But so was my mash tun



Give me your mash tun for free or get out of the thread.


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## Bribie G

There seems to be some strange mindset that HLT / Mashtun / Kettle brewing is the "natural" method of brewing. If this is the case then why don't most small breweries use this system? In fact they normally have a hot liquor source, a vessel which is used as a mashtun, then later as the kettle. And a lauter tun which may or may not be heated. Personally I see nothing "natural" about 3 vessel, it's just an option amongst options.


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## MarkBastard

I couldn't give a shit about how natural or old or new a method is anyway. I only care about making my brew day less annoying so that I'm inclined to brew more and enjoy my hobby.


----------



## sim

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> However, I am yet to find a circumstance _*in my brewery*_ where BIAB makes my bottom hurt.



Haha, Brew in a Bottom ! ! ! :lol:


----------



## QldKev

Mark^Bastard said:


> that is the best avatar i have ever seen, i am stuck in a booby trance




if you watch it long enough and then stare at the wall it starts moving like the boobies


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## pk.sax

lol.. ur a bit angry today... someone poke you hard?!

I was saying what it looked like to me. Simple ergonomics really, if the mash tun (Urn) is on a stand just high enough off the ground to fill cubes from, then the pail has to be raised enough out of it to drain (?? correct me if wrong mate, I haven't done your method, I always drained in colander).
At that height, you need to introduce a sparge that will not kill the grain bed or cause channeling/compacting whatever (I'm learning this stuff, take it easy). So, the HLT needs to be higher? or Pumped to sparge. Anyway, you get what I'm thinking I hope. Its just unnecessary work/bother through each mash for being too lazy to build a good hassle free tun from the start.

I'm not calling multi vessel brewing the "Proper" way. I don't know where you got that idea from. I am calling it "I think the easier way overall".

btw, I'm guarding that tun with my life... although.. there are plenty of empty kegs behind liquorland h34r:


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## MarkBastard

practicalfool said:


> I was saying what it looked like to me. Simple ergonomics really, if the mash tun (Urn) is on a stand just high enough off the ground to fill cubes from, then the pail has to be raised enough out of it to drain (?? correct me if wrong mate, I haven't done your method, I always drained in colander).
> At that height, you need to introduce a sparge that will not kill the grain bed or cause channeling/compacting whatever (I'm learning this stuff, take it easy). So, the HLT needs to be higher? or Pumped to sparge. Anyway, you get what I'm thinking I hope. Its just unnecessary work/bother through each mash for being too lazy to build a good hassle free tun from the start.



In a 3V/4V setup using gravity and following the same logic of the boiler being high enough to fill a cube, you would have the height of a cube, then the height of the boiler, then the height of the mash turn, then the height of the HLT. In this system you have the height of the cube, then the height of the boiler, then not even the entire height of the bucket (as the bucket sits partially inside the urn, not fully on top of it. Therefore the bucket is lower than your mash turn and considerably lower than your HLT.

Regarding sparging (which isn't a core part of this system, optional only, and I will test out whether it's worth it or not), you can manually recirculate by filling up a jug from the kettle, or use a pump. Sparging is not a core part of this system though as it's a full volume mash.

It's not about being lazy. I don't see anything lazy about experimenting with a brewing system. Lazy would be buying a premade mash tun, or a Braumeister, or even to some extent buying an eski, ball valve and false bottom.


----------



## pk.sax

Lets say we agree on most things here..

just saying, recirc =/= sparging.... recirc is a precursor to sparging to get clarity into the kettle.

With my 3v this last time, I just had the tun sitting on the burner, once finished, I put it on an upturned garden bin. This was right under the HLT that was on a bench, normal kitchen bench height. Replaced tun on burner with kettle on burner, started recirc with a jug (3-4 times) and started sparge when it looked good. Wasn't very high.

What I actually don't like about trying to make a grain bed in bucket system is that unless you sparge, the usefulness of doing that is very limited. As TB pointed out, BIAB no-sparge is already the easiest. so, if not sprging, I'd just stick with a bag. If I need to sparge, I'l take it to 3v. The in between just gains me the option to re-circulate, not enough benefit to me, all my BIABs that weren't meant to be cloudy have always come out very very bright, without absolutely any clearing additions, I don't even get to crash chill. Half tab of Irish moss in kettle is all it gets.

Couldn't justify all that effort for a benefit I already had with a bag.

Now, why am I posting in this thread???

I'm still space poor. My kettle and tun are sitting in a mate's hugantic shed. I could manage to do it at mine, but can't be arsed with the dicking around.
I'd have loved to see an option that is cheap and gave me no-sparge benefits that beat using a 19L pot and voile square. So far, I'm disappointed. Urn... nah.. another peice of electric junk to stow away that needs to be cleaned etc. Pot, easy, I just stick offs and ends in my 19L pot and it tucks away in a cupboard beautifully.


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## Nick JD

Problem with BIAB ... cloudy wort, messy bag/lifting.

Problem solved ... what will the multi-vessel folk have to whinge about that their method is superior? Nothing.

Hence the FEAR.


----------



## DUANNE

Nick JD said:


> Problem with BIAB ... cloudy wort, messy bag/lifting.
> 
> Problem solved ... what will the multi-vessel folk have to whinge about that their method is superior? Nothing.
> 
> Hence the FEAR.



and this method would reqiure,if i read it right a - bucket(mash tun) pot full of hot water (hlt), kettle(kettle). i have used biab for several years and have nothing against it but this is sounding more and more like a 3v system to me. biab is about the cheap and easy entry level and absolute simplicity of use. each and every 'innovation' seems to go against this and closer to 'traditional' 3v systems imo. my only FEAR is that these new systems are more complicated than the system they are intended to replace.


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## MarkBastard

practicalfool said:


> Lets say we agree on most things here..
> 
> just saying, recirc =/= sparging.... recirc is a precursor to sparging to get clarity into the kettle.
> 
> With my 3v this last time, I just had the tun sitting on the burner, once finished, I put it on an upturned garden bin. This was right under the HLT that was on a bench, normal kitchen bench height. Replaced tun on burner with kettle on burner, started recirc with a jug (3-4 times) and started sparge when it looked good. Wasn't very high.



Yes I realise recirculating is not the same as sparging (this is pretty basic stuff).

Haha, so you move your mash turn around and then talk to me about moving a pissy little bucket 20cm upwards?



practicalfool said:


> What I actually don't like about trying to make a grain bed in bucket system is that unless you sparge, the usefulness of doing that is very limited. As TB pointed out, BIAB no-sparge is already the easiest. so, if not sprging, I'd just stick with a bag. If I need to sparge, I'l take it to 3v. The in between just gains me the option to re-circulate, not enough benefit to me, all my BIABs that weren't meant to be cloudy have always come out very very bright, without absolutely any clearing additions, I don't even get to crash chill. Half tab of Irish moss in kettle is all it gets.



*THIS IS BIG AND BOLD SO THAT YOU READ IT. SPARGING AND EVEN RECIRCULATING IS NOT A NECESSARY FEATURE OF BUCKET BREWING.* How is 'BIAB no sparge' easier than 'Bucket no sparge'? And in what ways are you qualified to make this call as a 3V brewer that presumably has not done BIAB plus Bucket to compare the two?



practicalfool said:


> Couldn't justify all that effort for a benefit I already had with a bag.
> 
> Now, why am I posting in this thread???
> 
> I'm still space poor. My kettle and tun are sitting in a mate's hugantic shed. I could manage to do it at mine, but can't be arsed with the dicking around.
> I'd have loved to see an option that is cheap and gave me no-sparge benefits that beat using a 19L pot and voile square. So far, I'm disappointed. Urn... nah.. another peice of electric junk to stow away that needs to be cleaned etc. Pot, easy, I just stick offs and ends in my 19L pot and it tucks away in a cupboard beautifully.



Hence why not everyone is a 3V brewer. We don't all have that much space in our houses or a magical friend that gives us use of their shed plus a magical source of free mash tuns that teleport to where ever you want them to while containing your mash.


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## ShredMaster

Well the way I'm doing it is really a single "vessel" system...

The HLT = Kettle, it is HLT until the mash bucket goes in, then it becomes a "mash tun" and when you take the mash bucket out it becomes the kettle.

You can't really call the mash bucket a "vessel", it's full of holes and holds no water!


I can't understand the confusion tbh, all that has happened is that the bag has been replaced with a bucket and a bunch of lads are mucking around tweaking it...


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## MarkBastard

BEERHOG said:


> and this method would reqiure,if i read it right a - bucket(mash tun) pot full of hot water (hlt), kettle(kettle). i have used biab for several years and have nothing against it but this is sounding more and more like a 3v system to me. biab is about the cheap and easy entry level and absolute simplicity of use. each and every 'innovation' seems to go against this and closer to 'traditional' 3v systems imo. my only FEAR is that these new systems are more complicated than the system they are intended to replace.



You didn't read it right.

This method requires:
- Kettle
- Bucket (if this is a vessel then so is a bag)

That's it. It's exactly the same process as BIAB. Where it differs is that BIAB almost always is used with a sky hook, or an additional vessel to hang the bag over to collect more wort. This system would almost always be used with a device that suspends the bucket over the urn. It could also be a skyhook, but it has much more flexibility than BIAB in that you could use wooden supports, or metal hooks or whatever else to keep it above the urn. You could even just stick a wire rack on the urn, then the bucket on top of the wire rack if you had an extra set of hands in the brewery.

I'm wondering about these BIAB purists that don't use a hook to suspend the bag and don't stick the bag in an additional vessel. What to they do? One of the following, all of which sound stupid or infeasible:
1 - Pull the bag out and hold it there with their arms until it fully drains (15-20 minutes) or have a secondary brewer to squeeze while they're holding it to shorten the time needed.
2 - Pull the bag out and just chuck it straight into a bin or whatever and waste the wort that's still in the grain, requiring more grain to start with or being happier with really really bad efficiency.


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## MarkBastard

ShredMaster said:


> I can't understand the confusion tbh, all that has happened is that the bag has been replaced with a bucket and a bunch of lads are mucking around tweaking it...



It is seriously doing my head in that people aren't grasping this concept.


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## 1975sandman

Mark^Bastard said:


> It is seriously doing my head in that people aren't grasping this concept.



I agree with you on that one MB. The whole idea seems pretty simple to me as well. If I didn't have a 3v setup already, I would seriously give your idea a go.

Keep up the experimentation! :icon_cheers: 

My 2c worth.....(if it means much)


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## MarkBastard

lazy brew said:


> My 2c worth.....(if it means much)



Honestly, it means the world to me.


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## stux

Nick JD said:


> Problem with BIAB ... cloudy wort, messy bag/lifting.
> 
> Problem solved ... what will the multi-vessel folk have to whinge about that their method is superior? Nothing.
> 
> Hence the FEAR.



"but you will still need a skyhook, or big pulley/winch/ratchet setup, which is a huge outlay and permanent residential modification! Much easier to build a 3 tier stand out of angle and a few welds and casters"


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## argon

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'm wondering about these BIAB purists that don't use a hook to suspend the bag and don't stick the bag in an additional vessel. What to they do? One of the following, all of which sound stupid or infeasible:


Although i'm not a BIAB purist, nor a current BIABer... i'm in full support of the tweaking you guys are doing. I've always seen it as just a straight replacement of bag for a bucket... simple. It's funny that other people can't see it.

When i used to BIAB, i used to just put the bag on top of the cake rack (that was once in the keggle) in the big w pot. Tried a couple of times with a hook... was a PITA. Easier just to pick it up, with one hand, take the rack out with the other then put both in the pot. That way the bag could drain and i'd capture the wort. You could just as easily do that with the bucket.

Alwyas amazed me that people couldn't hold 10kg in the air for a few seconds and needed a hook. Honestly, how do you function being that pissweak?


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## Nick JD

Stux said:


> but you will still need a skyhook, or big pulley/winch/ratchet setup...



Lift bucket out of kettle ... slide in rack (or support bolts through holes ala braumeister) ... put bucket on rack ... pour yourself a beer while it drains, or perhaps even pour some hot water through it.

Personally, I'm wondering what sized bucket will fit in my 19L pot, and most importantly, can I get it in green?


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## argon

Nick JD said:


> Lift bucket out of kettle ... slide in rack ... put bucket on rack ... pour yourself a beer while it drains...???. profit



fixed


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## MarkBastard

argon said:


> Although i'm not a BIAB purist, nor a current BIABer... i'm in full support of the tweaking you guys are doing. I've always seen it as just a straight replacement of bag for a bucket... simple. It's funny that other people can't see it.
> 
> When i used to BIAB, i used to just put the bag on top of the cake rack (that was once in the keggle) in the big w pot. Tried a couple of times with a hook... was a PITA. Easier just to pick it up, with one hand, take the rack out with the other then put both in the pot. That way the bag could drain and i'd capture the wort. You could just as easily do that with the bucket.
> 
> Alwyas amazed me that people couldn't hold 10kg in the air for a few seconds and needed a hook. Honestly, how do you function being that pissweak?



I think the people that use hooks do so as an alternative to using an additional vessel to collect the run off from the bag. I mean if you think about it, taking the bag from the kettle and putting it into an additional vessel, and then manually pouring from that additional vessel into the kettle is a bit of an over the top process. It's not hard or anything but it also seems a bit silly. If you think about it, with your prior method, you could have had a bucket with a tap instead of your second pot, and chucked the bag in that, then had it at a level higher than the kettle and allowed it to drain through the tap back into the kettle while raising the wort to boil.

The guys using the hook are just suspending the bag above their kettle so that it drains into the kettle instead of into an additional vessel. It makes sense to me, provided you have the hook or the ability to easily install one. I suppose a pully system is what you wouldn't understand, but I could see the benefit in it as if the pot was perfectly position, the pully should be able to seamlessly pull the bag upwards at a slower and steadier pace to ensure there's no wort overflow problems with the bag. When I do it by hand sometimes I get drips down the side of the urn and even a sort of suction effect as the bag leaves the urn which is a pain in the arse / causes a mess.


----------



## MarkBastard

Nick JD said:


> Lift bucket out of kettle ... slide in rack (or support bolts through holes ala braumeister) ... put bucket on rack ... pour yourself a beer while it drains, or perhaps even pour some hot water through it.
> 
> Personally, I'm wondering what sized bucket will fit in my 19L pot, and most importantly, can I get it in green?



Yeah it sounds pretty easy. You can't do that with BIAB because the bag would flatten out to be wider than the urn. The rigidity of the bucket stops that from happening. Also if you do want to rinse the grain you can do so very easily by just adding hot water to the bucket and letting it drain more.


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## Nick JD

argon said:


> fixed



:lol: 

I've spent less on my brewing equipment than most 3V brewers spent on their last anal bleaching.


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## MarkBastard

Actual real life LOL's


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## 1975sandman

I reckon MB you should just keep on doing what you are doing and posting the results as some people are interested in how it turns out. Nothing wrong with a little experimentation.


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## pk.sax

It's like what women do. They'll mess around with 10 things in a shop, buy 3 and return 2 in a couple of days. Could've just decided right there in the shop that it won't fit! **** this, didn't sign up for abuse. Was just discussing how the amount of equipment and process is snowballing wrt simple pot voile and green bucket to drain bag bs the actual benefit to the beer and it's become an issue. All that 2v I've got fits in a little heap in the corner. Only reason I don't do it at home is I haven't got a tap point handy anywhere that I can set it up on the balcony to allow me easy access to water. I didn't ask for the judging.


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## adniels3n

I have a BIBOD experiment going at the moment. Bucket In Bucket Of Death. Spatter guard bottom in a Handi Pail, sitting in a 2nd Handi Pail with a STC-1000 controlled kettle element, all wrapped in a camping mat. Also we don't have a shop in town that knows what voile is, which limits bag making abilities.


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## Bribie G

Brew now underway (the jugged not pump version) and I've taken a few shots but the camera needs recharging so I'll post a wee gallery later on. 
So far, prepared the bucket
Prepared the urn and strike liquor as per BIAB, having positioned the urn and bucket under the skyhook accurately then hoisted bucket up out of the way. 

Lower bucket into strike liquor and check temperature
Dough in - needed to tickle the mash temp up 1.5 using my immersion wand to get 66 - more about this later. 
I'd lagged the urn with a windscreen waffle protector, water in the outer jacket is at 68 and inner at 66 and I betcha we'll get less temp drop than a standard BIAB brew.
Timer set
Have a pint or two. So far easy as.

Today's recipe:

Yorkshire Gold Keg size Brew 21L to get 20L into cube and end up with a cornie after yeast loss

4500 Bairds Perle
300 sugar
40 Challenger 60 mins
20 Bobek 10 mins
1469 at 17

Pics to follow


----------



## Thirsty Boy

ok, why is it that this is a BIAB vs 3V argument? its not. I dont know about other people, but I'm certainly not arguing that. i think that 3V and BIAB are roughly equivalent - both have good points that the other misses and visa versa. this is about what one or two brewers are proposing to do, and the good vs bad potential of their specific intended tecnique. its not a ******* philospophical arguament - its just a discussion of the potential good and bad aspects of a specific technique that is being proposed. 

The bucket with a false bottom is NOT a direct substitute for a bag - if you think it is, I'm sorry, but that just demonstrates that you have **** all idea what you are talking about. There are a number of people who have replaced "bags" with solid mesh cylinders - thats a driect replacement! and quite frankly, if you cant see where the two things are different, **** you, you really really don't know what you are talking about and i dont care if you disagree with that, its because you are ill informed. Do some ******* research or just find a brewing guru to listen to, technical debate is beyond you.

I'm sick of being nice about this - I've tried to avoid saying in my not so discreet way, what Spillsmostofit said in his typically understated kind of way --- if you find the bag hard, you're doing it wrong. Its _easy_, I can do it easily, if you cant - its because you dont do it like me, you should and then it would be easy. You can bitch and moan all you like, but i have an easy, efficient and short brewday using BIAB. If you dont its because i am right and you are wrong.

seriously - i've really tried to be even handed and reasonable aboout this. But I'm sorry - all i can see is tools who have taken an inherrently simple process, made it it hard, then bitched about how hard it is. ****!!! BIAB is easy! if you find it hard, thats you - just you - not the process - you.

Thats what all the debate is about - not people who genuinely think that there is genuinely something to discuss, just people who were trying to dance around the issue of them thinking you are ******* it up and trying to break the news to you gently. Bum doesn't play that game, ever. I do, but I've had enough - **** you, you're wrong. One of these days you'll actually know enough to know why you're wrong, but given what I've seen so far - it'll be a while before you're even at that point.

Mark - once again - surely finally... your intended tecnique is fine, reasonably good even. Just not the absolute best! Can you live with that? Because thats all anyone is saying, even given my current frustration, thats all I'm saying. It WILL WORK. I just cant be bothered pretending that i empathise with the reasoning anymore, the technical merit remains unchanged.


----------



## felten




----------



## DUANNE

Mark^Bastard said:


> You didn't read it right.
> 
> This method requires:
> - Kettle
> - Bucket (if this is a vessel then so is a bag)
> 
> That's it. It's exactly the same process as BIAB. Where it differs is that BIAB almost always is used with a sky hook, or an additional vessel to hang the bag over to collect more wort. This system would almost always be used with a device that suspends the bucket over the urn. It could also be a skyhook, but it has much more flexibility than BIAB in that you could use wooden supports, or metal hooks or whatever else to keep it above the urn. You could even just stick a wire rack on the urn, then the bucket on top of the wire rack if you had an extra set of hands in the brewery.
> 
> I'm wondering about these BIAB purists that don't use a hook to suspend the bag and don't stick the bag in an additional vessel. What to they do? One of the following, all of which sound stupid or infeasible:
> 1 - Pull the bag out and hold it there with their arms until it fully drains (15-20 minutes) or have a secondary brewer to squeeze while they're holding it to shorten the time needed.
> 2 - Pull the bag out and just chuck it straight into a bin or whatever and waste the wort that's still in the grain, requiring more grain to start with or being happier with really really bad efficiency.




so the advantage of this is simply so you can avoid the use of a hook or piece of rope? i can see some sense in that just. im not sure were in the thread i read it or if i even did but was under the belief that the bucket was to enable a way of recirculating the wort for a clearer wort into the kettle and allowing a sparge if believed neccasary in witch case i still stand by earlier comments.


----------



## Tim F

Jeez.... good thing we aren't doing open heart surgery here or flying a rocket ship hey!


----------



## aussiechucka

felten said:


> View attachment 49708


+1
keep up the good work lads. Great to read the ideas and watch the show. 
Cheers
Chucka


----------



## Nick JD

Thirsty Boy said:


> ok, why is it that this is a BIAB vs 3V argument? its not. I dont know about other people, but I'm certainly not arguing that. i think that 3V and BIAB are roughly equivalent - both have good points that the other misses and visa versa. this is about what one or two brewers are proposing to do, and the good vs bad potential of their specific intended tecnique. its not a ******* philospophical arguament - its just a discussion of the potential good and bad aspects of a specific technique that is being proposed.
> 
> The bucket with a false bottom is NOT a direct substitute for a bag - if you think it is, I'm sorry, but that just demonstrates that you have **** all idea what you are talking about. There are a number of people who have replaced "bags" with solid mesh cylinders - thats a driect replacement! and quite frankly, if you cant see where the two things are different, **** you, you really really don't know what you are talking about and i dont care if you disagree with that, its because you are ill informed. Do some ******* research or just find a brewing guru to listen to, technical debate is beyond you.
> 
> I'm sick of being nice about this - I've tried to avoid saying in my not so discreet way, what Spillsmostofit said in his typically understated kind of way --- if you find the bag hard, you're doing it wrong. Its _easy_, I can do it easily, if you cant - its because you dont do it like me, you should and then it would be easy. You can bitch and moan all you like, but i have an easy, efficient and short brewday using BIAB. If you dont its because i am right and you are wrong.
> 
> seriously - i've really tried to be even handed and reasonable aboout this. But I'm sorry - all i can see is tools who have taken an inherrently simple process, made it it hard, then bitched about how hard it is. ****!!! BIAB is easy! if you find it hard, thats you - just you - not the process - you.
> 
> Thats what all the debate is about - not people who genuinely think that there is genuinely something to discuss, just people who were trying to dance around the issue of them thinking you are ******* it up and trying to break the news to you gently. Bum doesn't play that game, ever. I do, but I've had enough - **** you, you're wrong. One of these days you'll actually know enough to know why you're wrong, but given what I've seen so far - it'll be a while before you're even at that point.
> 
> Mark - once again - surely finally... your intended tecnique is fine, reasonably good even. Just not the absolute best! Can you live with that? Because thats all anyone is saying, even given my current frustration, thats all I'm saying. It WILL WORK. I just cant be bothered pretending that i empathise with the reasoning anymore, the technical merit remains unchanged.



For this tirade, Thirsty gets the *Official Bunny With The Bog Roll On Its Head Award* for giving too much of a **** about shit that doesn't matter. Congratulations, Thirsty! SPEECH! Oh, wait, we've heard enough.


----------



## yardy

who really gives a **** how you brew ? 

brew in a bucket, brew in an urn, brew in a ******* shoe box, just do it.


----------



## Nick JD

yardy said:


> who really gives a **** how you brew ?



Thirsty does. It means a lot to him that we do it the way he has delineated as the righteous and true and hallowed method to which the brewer should be subscribed. 

Any deviation is inherently moronic and blasphemous. 

Frankly, all those who choose to deviate from Thirsty's ten brewing commandments shall be smoted to the firey pits of hell where they will suffer an eternity of rabid horny pancake bunnies.

I can't wait for PissedoffPatty, or PiztolPat or whatever bigdick name he uses to chime in and cast us all into the magma for upsetting His method.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Yardy (first time for everything). Make beer, not war.


----------



## Bribie G

Brewday so far is going about the same time frame and easiness index as a standard BIAB, please excuse the massive photos because I'm on another machine and stupid slow wanky Windows7 doesn't offer the good old powertoys JPEG shrinker that they did with XP.






I used Nala's excellent idea to split the handle and araldite it to get a good central lift. I added a snap hook which lives on the bucket from now on.






Now, this is for Mark. With BIU (Bucket in Urn) if you do _full volume _liquor using a Masters / Queen brand handy pail you are going to be limited to around a 5K grain bill otherwise your inner bucket isn't going to have enough volume. Here's what 4.5k ended up as, and as you can imagine anything more is going to overflow the bucket. 






However no problem because you can mash stronger and do a mini sparge with a couple of electric kettles at the end in much the same way as BIAB can include a wee dunk sparge. 

I made up an urn parka with a windscreen protector. Guess what, NO temp drop, bang on 66 at the end of the mash. B) 





After some jugging, acceptable clarity. 






Hoisted and actually did a kettle sparge because I couldn't squeeze as I did with the bag, so just sparged through till I was at the same level I would have got to with squeezing. 

Being a self powered urn, the extra "dicking around" can be done in the time that the urn is coming up to the boil, so no extra time on the brewday, and as the wort is getting hotter you get a bit of a "mashout" type benefit towards the end. 

Cleanup very easy - tip onto garden bed, hose everything and just rinse out the hopsock bag that was part of the false bottom assembly, it's now in there as the hoppo, pegged around the rim of the urn. 

So far, I'm happy. It's an _enhanced _BIAB with little extra fuss, but not a quantum leap in any direction. Not much extra effort, better clarity, easier cleanup, better temperature stability. All good so far but don't know if I'll go the pump now, but let's see how the yield goes.


----------



## MarkBastard

Ahahahaha this thread...


----------



## Bribie G

Cubed. 75% efficiency, all targets hit. 

:beer:

edit: 4 hours from dough in .


----------



## adniels3n

My test run at a BIBOD (bucket in bucket of death) was a less successful. A lot of grain made it into the lower bucket, even after changing from just the 1/8 holes to a spatter guard mesh. Looks like voile over the mesh screen is a must hey Bribie?


----------



## MarkBastard

Do you reckon the grain got through the mesh or around it?


----------



## adniels3n

It was jammed in with the outer ring off the guard acting like a big circlip, but it is possible. At least I now know what astringency tastes like.


----------



## MarkBastard

BEERHOG said:


> so the advantage of this is simply so you can avoid the use of a hook or piece of rope? i can see some sense in that just. im not sure were in the thread i read it or if i even did but was under the belief that the bucket was to enable a way of recirculating the wort for a clearer wort into the kettle and allowing a sparge if believed neccasary in witch case i still stand by earlier comments.


Yes, the reason i am doing this is to avoid a hook or piece of rope as its not feasible to install one in my brew area (this makes me 'wrong' according to tb). I will also be dispationately testing a recirculating system to see what happens. Ive stated this numerous times before.

Me, bribie, tim and others are not brewing together and our systems, philosophies and methods are all differrent to some extent. We may also have different motivations. For example bribie is using a skyhook and tim is using a pump. Im not sure if this is causing the skim readers some confusion.


----------



## MarkBastard

Muddzy said:


> It was jammed in with the outer ring off the guard acting like a big circlip, but it is possible. At least I now know what astringency tastes like.


Thanks, i may use a bag as an outer 'safety net' for my first experiment. My mesh is very fine but there is the worry that grain could get around the filter. If there is any grain in the bag ill know for sure without wrecking the brew.


----------



## adniels3n

If I could get a bag I wouldn't worry about it to be honest. I'd got bored waiting for the bits to arrive to electrify my 3V keggle setup so I started stuffing around. I think some people miss that point. It's fun to tinker & experiment. That's why I reckon it's a great hobby, so many aspects to get involved in if you choose to. Metalworking, instrumentation, chemistry, yeast handling, programming, not to mention actually making/drinking beer.

And rabbits with bog rolls on their heads. That made my night.


----------



## Tim F

Mark^Bastard said:


> For example bribie is using a skyhook and tim is using a pump. Im not sure if this is causing the skim readers some confusion.



Also mine is all stainless and is a HERMS. I might call it my HERMIABU.


----------



## Bribie G

Yes, all this experimenting and dicking around and trying to do things that are new but apparently the Ancient Gods of Brewing had worked out a hundred years ago although never seem to post any useful resources that may be of assistance and prevent us from toiling away re-inventing the wheel. 
At the end of the day the best way to get a totally consistent clear refreshing cold beer in the shortest possible time and at a very good price is to use the DTABWS* system as used by millions of fellow Australians.


Edit: Muddz, another good material is the 2ft by 2ft grain bag that Ross sells quite cheaply, you can fold them double to get a good filter happening but a bit more free flowing than curtain voile. I'm pretty sure they are the same as paint shop strainer bags. 








*drivetoabws


----------



## bum

No one is telling anyone not to do anything except to stop making fanciful claims that are patently untrue. Yeah, it'll make beer. It might even be easy. No, it isn't a best-of-both-words arrangement. Maybe close enough actually is good enough but.

Reading is fun, guys. Perhaps you should try it some time.


----------



## MarkBastard

bum said:


> No one is telling anyone not to do anything except to stop making fanciful claims that are patently untrue. Yeah, it'll make beer. It might even be easy. No, it isn't a best-of-both-words arrangement. Maybe close enough actually is good enough but.
> 
> Reading is fun, guys. Perhaps you should try it some time.



That's a bit rich.


----------



## Bribie G

So, Bum, what method do you recommend to make your award winning beers? Rubbermaid esky? Gas Fired Pot? Decoction mash in an iron three legged pot over a peat fire?
Can opener?

edit: please quote which of my claims are patently untrue? The forum has been rid of your trolling for a while but looks like you're back from troll camp.


----------



## MarkBastard

it's not trolling bribie, it's politely informing us that we are wrong. Apparently there's a difference.


----------



## bum

All the stuff about your grainbed, Bribie. It isn't going to be much more than marginally better than BIAB (I am not saying there is anything wrong with BIAB).

Yes, Bribie, I have been going out of my way not to post much lately but I have been reading just the same. Here's the amusing part, it is _solely_ the lunacy that you post that has provoked me to break my silence. People listen to you and you talk crap. You live in a fantasyland. I'm certain you're a lovely bloke and I'm not comfortable making such a serious personal statement about you but there it is.


----------



## Tim F

Making beer in a particular way makes you a lunatic?
Jeez some of you guys need to get out more. Who cares!?! It's just frickin homebrewing, the worst possible outcome here is someone ends up with a couple of spare buckets full of holes!


----------



## MarkBastard

I've met Bribie before, he's no more a lunatic than anyone else his age. In fact I found he had a decent sense of humour and was able to connect with a younger guy like me more than most old dudes. He's young at heart for sure.

I've also tasted his beer, and it was good.

I'm also pretty sure he brews more than the average person here. Seems like he's constantly brewing and doing the hobby that this site exists for. He's also constantly tweaking his brewing processes to improve them for him, or at least to attempt to. He seems to enjoy this and pass what he does on to other people. He's never preachy. He's never an arsehole, unlike his detractors.

Would I adopt everything he does? No. Flat out no. But that doesn't mean it angers me that he communicates what he does. It's a good thing that he communicates it. It's better than folding your arms and saying people are 'wrong' and giving no real justification and never pin pointing exactly what is wrong.

Does he conform to a clique? Probably not. Maybe that's why he has detractors. Same with Nick JD. I bet Nick JD has converted more people to all grain brewing than any of the pseudo-scientists and scenesters here.

I personally find Bribie to be one of the best posters here on several different levels. Entertainment, information, even a bit of light Internet friendship to pass the day. He's a good bloke. I tip my hat to him. There's a lot of shit ***** here, and even good guys turning into shit *****, but Bribie has never hurt a fly and he deserves more respect than you're giving him bum.


----------



## kdaust

Seriously. This thread is ridiculous.

I think all bum is saying its is don't post things as fact unless they are. If its science or theory then say so, but be happy for critical debate. If its personal experience then say that.

But if you don't have science, and haven't done it, then don't get upset when people call bullshit.


----------



## Nick JD

kdaust said:


> But if you don't have science, and haven't done it, then don't get upset when people call bullshit.



I had science, but in the late nineties I sold it and bought art. Now I wish I bought philosophy.


----------



## Tim F

kdaust said:


> I think all bum is saying its is don't post things as fact unless they are.



Post examples of where this has happened


----------



## 1975sandman

bum said:


> People listen to you and you talk crap. You live in a fantasyland. I'm certain you're a lovely bloke and I'm not comfortable making such a serious personal statement about you but there it is.



Is this fact or personal experience?


----------



## mckenry




----------



## ShredMaster

So much fear in this thread.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.





....remember, it's only about buckets.....


----------



## MarkBastard

How many buckets died in the making of this thread?


----------



## Malted

bum said:


> Snip... You live in a fantasyland. Snip...



Which one is Bribies house? :lol: 

http://www.fantasylandminigolf.com/

http://disneyland.disney.go.com/disneyland/fantasyland/

http://www.markmaranga.com/gloria-fantasyland-dapitan-philippines/


----------



## MarkBastard

Here's a list of things I'll be measuring during my experiment (OMG SCIENCE). If anyone wants me to measure more things let me know.

- Begin process
1 - Starting water temp
2 - Starting water level
- Put bucket in
3 - Bucket in temp outside bucket
4 - Bucket in temp inside bucket
5 - Bucket in water level
- Dough in
6 - Grain in temp outside bucket
7 - Grain in temp inside bucket
8 - Grain in water level
- Mash for 60 minutes
9 - End mash temp outside bucket
10 - End mash temp inside bucket
11 - End mash SG outside bucket
12 - End mash SG inside bucket
- Raise bucket and fully drain
13 - SG of wort in urn
14 - SG of final drips from bucket
15 - level of wort in urn
16 - Sample of wort in glass (take photo)
- Pump recirculate for 15 minutes with urn set to 'mash out' temps.
17 - Temperature at pump outlet
- Turn off pump and fully drain
18 - SG in urn
19 - level of wort in urn
20 - Sample of wort in glass (take photo)
- If level is less than desired pre-boil volume rinse grain with the amount of water needed at mash out temps
21 - SG of first drips
22 - SG of last drips
23 - SG of wort in urn
24 - level of wort in urn
- Repeat rinse if needed


----------



## .DJ.

please also confirm the size AND colour of your underwear as this will surely affect your SG after mashout...


----------



## technoicon

i'm confused. are you putting the bucket back in at one point? be for you run your pump?


----------



## technoicon

Mark^Bastard said:


> Here's a list of things I'll be measuring during my experiment (OMG SCIENCE). If anyone wants me to measure more things let me know.
> 
> - Begin process
> 1 - Starting water temp
> 2 - Starting water level
> - Put bucket in
> 3 - Bucket in temp outside bucket
> 4 - Bucket in temp inside bucket
> 5 - Bucket in water level
> - Dough in
> 6 - Grain in temp outside bucket
> 7 - Grain in temp inside bucket
> 8 - Grain in water level
> - Mash for 60 minutes
> 9 - End mash temp outside bucket
> 10 - End mash temp inside bucket
> 11 - End mash SG outside bucket
> 12 - End mash SG inside bucket
> - *Raise bucket and fully drain*
> 13 - SG of wort in urn
> 14 - SG of final drips from bucket
> 15 - level of wort in urn
> 16 - Sample of wort in glass (take photo)
> - Pump recirculate for 15 minutes with urn set to 'mash out' temps.
> 17 - Temperature at pump outlet
> -* Turn off pump and fully drain*
> 18 - SG in urn
> 19 - level of wort in urn
> 20 - Sample of wort in glass (take photo)
> - If level is less than desired pre-boil volume rinse grain with the amount of water needed at mash out temps
> 21 - SG of first drips
> 22 - SG of last drips
> 23 - SG of wort in urn
> 24 - level of wort in urn
> - Repeat rinse if needed


----------



## MarkBastard

Awesome Fury said:


> i'm confused. are you putting the bucket back in at one point? be for you run your pump?



Nope, the bucket sits fully in the urn during the mash. After the mash it is set so that the bottom of the bucket is slightly higher than the wort level for pre-boil, so that the bucket never sits in the wort. Then the bucket is in the same exact position during the recirculation process (above the wort, not in it).

The recirculation process is being done as a part of my experiment to determine whether it adds to the process in any way, hence all the measurements. If it doesn't add to clarity, efficiency etc in any way then I won't ever be doing it again.

I'm open minded as to other experiments if anyone has any requests or ideas.


----------



## MarkBastard

Also obviously if the recirculation process is worth doing, the next time I brew I'll immediately start recirculating after lifting the bucket in to its raised position rather than waiting for it to fully drain. The reason this time I'm going to wait until it's fully drained is so that I can measure the performance of this system without the pump and compare it to with the pump / rinse cycle.


----------



## 1975sandman

Are you going to try and compare recirculation with bucket in the wort with bucket just out of the wort?


----------



## kdaust

Tim F said:


> Post examples of where this has happened


What. I can't try and sum up someones point that I agree with in my own words. I'm sure bum isn't shy and will tell me if i'm mistaken.



Mark^Bastard said:


> Here's a list of things I'll be measuring during my experiment (OMG SCIENCE). If anyone wants me to measure more things let me know.



Look forward to reading about the results.


----------



## Maheel

Malted said:


> http://www.markmaranga.com/gloria-fantasyland-dapitan-philippines/



fark you got me......

i did not even look at the other links, went directly to here no hover


----------



## technoicon

ok that makes sense. so you pump from the bottom of your kettle into the bucket, like a recirc sparge?


----------



## kymba

even if you don't end up needing to do the sparge thing, can you do it off to the side and report those findings anyway. interested to see how much sugarz are left

and can you bottle some and test every now and then for HSA effects


----------



## MarkBastard

lazy brew said:


> Are you going to try and compare recirculation with bucket in the wort with bucket just out of the wort?



I was told (and took at face value) that there'd be issues doing recirculation with the bucket in the wort. I guess maybe it's another thing to look for later on. If the bucket is sitting above the level of the tap it should work a bit better. I would definitely like to test this but I won't be doing it for the first run.




Awesome Fury said:


> ok that makes sense. so you pump from the bottom of your kettle into the bucket, like a recirc sparge?



Yep, in my case I'll be using the urn's tap and hooking that up to the pumps input, and then the outlet goes to a tube that recirculates the wort back into the top of the bucket.



kymba said:


> even if you don't end up needing to do the sparge thing, can you do it off to the side and report those findings anyway. interested to see how much sugarz are left
> 
> and can you bottle some and test every now and then for HSA effects



That's a very good idea, though couldn't this be worked out by the final efficiency? Do you want me to put the bucket in a pot and do a sparge where I add water and leave for a while, or do you want me to rinse it above another pot and measure the run off SG?

I don't bottle so I won't be testing for HSA.


----------



## [email protected]

Just an observation from following this thread. It might be stupid idea? im not really sure i doubt i will change my technique any time soon as i usually only deal with 2.5 to 3 kg of grain so the bag thing is less of an issue. 

Clearer wort would always be nice but i know its not necessary to make good beer.

Anyway i notice with the grain in the bucket is that the plastic being smooth the grain comes away from the sides really easy, i remember pictures and comments about channelling down the sides when recirculating. 

I also realise the whole point is to do away with the bag. But when i am mashing in my bag one thing that shits me is how the grain sticks to the voile.
So why not use the bag anyway, in the bucket? I mean pulled tight, weigh it down so you can somehow tie it off to keep it from slacking prior to use.

Just for the record i have found this thread interesting, i dont see a problem with people talking about what they are doing. Who really give a toss if old mate wants to talk about his tinkering? Lawful science freaks?

Anyway if i was going to give the hard bag method a go i might try it out how i described, i like the idea - similar to a braumeister thing of being able to pull the bucket up, let it sit and drain on its own then run a few jugs of water through it to rinse, its a small aspect to change in the process from using just the bag, but it feels like it would make it that little bit more relaxed and enjoyable not having to do the bag thing.

cheers time for another beer :chug:


----------



## MarkBastard

Beer4U said:


> Anyway i notice with the grain in the bucket is that the plastic being smooth the grain comes away from the sides really easy, i remember pictures and comments about channelling down the sides when recirculating.



You sure that was grain in a bucket? There was a pic recently where someone made an actual BIAB bag with a thicker material for the sides and a mesh bottom, and the grain pulled away from the sides very easily. A bucket's plastic surely would be very similar to an eski mash tun so I'm not sure how what you've said could be the case, but I'll definitely look for that now so that we know whether or not it happens.



Beer4U said:


> I also realise the whole point is to do away with the bag. But when i am mashing in my bag one thing that shits me is how the grain sticks to the voile.
> So why not use the bag anyway, in the bucket? I mean pulled tight, weigh it down so you can somehow tie it off to keep it from slacking prior to use.



Don't really understand what you mean. It sounds like you find it annoying how grain sticks to the voile (I do too by the way) but then suggest to use the bag in the bucket? What for?

I'm going to use the grain outside the bucket the first time as a safety net, but if the bucket doesn't let grain escape I definitely won't be using the bag again.


----------



## DUANNE

- Pump recirculate for 15 minutes with urn set to 'mash out' temps.

- If level is less than desired pre-boil volume rinse grain with the amount of water needed at mash out temps

[/quote]

so a vorlouf step and possibly a sparge? just what are the advantages over a batch sparge 3v setup? isnt the time saved in biab mostly atrributed to not needing a vorlouf or sparge step? 
good luck with it all but it still just seems a very complicated way of doing something simple to me.


----------



## [email protected]

Mark^Bastard said:


> You sure that was grain in a bucket? There was a pic recently where someone made an actual BIAB bag with a thicker material for the sides and a mesh bottom, and the grain pulled away from the sides very easily. A bucket's plastic surely would be very similar to an eski mash tun so I'm not sure how what you've said could be the case, but I'll definitely look for that now so that we know whether or not it happens.
> 
> not sure either ? i would have to look through the thread, it may not even have been this one? :blink:
> 
> 
> Don't really understand what you mean. It sounds like you find it annoying how grain sticks to the voile (I do too by the way) but then suggest to use the bag in the bucket? What for?
> 
> I'm going to use the grain outside the bucket the first time as a safety net, but if the bucket doesn't let grain escape I definitely won't be using the bag again.



I mean that i want the grain to stick to the bag, if it is in the bucket - this is going by my original thought on what i think i remembered about the grain pulling away from the side of the bucket because the plastic is smooth creates channels. If i have imagined that post in this thread then my whole idea is mute.

Yeah the grain sticking to the bag gives me the shits, but if it was still used with a bucket to make the grain removal process easier i could live with that. I usually go and dump grain outside for horses, then shake, then chuck it in washing machine with what ever dirty clothes are around at the time.


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## kymba

> That's a very good idea, though couldn't this be worked out by the final efficiency? Do you want me to put the bucket in a pot and do a sparge where I add water and leave for a while, or do you want me to rinse it above another pot and measure the run off SG?


dunno, maybe run a few litres of hot water through it? but like you said, you can just do it with math

i was just curious as the original motivation for replacing bag with the bucket was purely cost driven, so leaving sugarz in there only to be thrown out later doesn't make sense. but you are doing this to make the day easier, so it doesn't really matter in the end


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## MarkBastard

BEERHOG said:


> so a vorlouf step and possibly a sparge? just what are the advantages over a batch sparge 3v setup? isnt the time saved in biab mostly atrributed to not needing a vorlouf or sparge step?
> good luck with it all but it still just seems a very complicated way of doing something simple to me.



As I've mentioned numerous times this is an experiment to *confirm or deny* the benefits or lack thereof of completing this extra step. If there are no benefits, that's probably a good thing as it means there is no need to bother doing it in future.

If it ends up needing a sparge it's because I didn't use enough water to begin with, so that can be adjusted the next time. Things like this can happen when working with new gear. I'm only catering for if it does happen. I'm not planning for it to happen.

As for advantages vs a 3v setup, less vessels and less cost in my particular circumstances and that also applies to BIAB in my particular circumstances too. Ideally the vorlouf and sparge are a waste of time, I get decent efficiency and the process goes more smoothly than BIAB. If that happens I'll be happy and keep using this method. If not I'll probably go to 3V or 2V with a mash tun. I almost already did that then realised how ridiculous the cost can be. Even false bottoms are god damn expensive! And I'm not interested in 4.5 vessel brewing systems like the 'ghetto' setup either (though I do reckon it's pretty cool)


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## MarkBastard

Beer4U said:


> I mean that i want the grain to stick to the bag, if it is in the bucket - this is going by my original thought on what i think i remembered about the grain pulling away from the side of the bucket because the plastic is smooth creates channels. If i have imagined that post in this thread then my whole idea is mute.
> 
> Yeah the grain sticking to the bag gives me the shits, but if it was still used with a bucket to make the grain removal process easier i could live with that. I usually go and dump grain outside for horses, then shake, then chuck it in washing machine with what ever dirty clothes are around at the time.



Yeah fair enough, guess I'll know this weekend when I'm for sure actually doing the brew this time haha. Too hungover last weekend...

Ideally if there's no need for a bag I can just tip the contents of the bucket direct into a bin and then wipe it out, should be a lot easier than cleaning the bag out, but this is something I can confirm after actually doing it too.


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## Malted

Now we are getting somewhere: Brew In A Bag In A Bucket In An Urn (BIABIABIAU)


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## MarkBastard

Sounds like a beach song.


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## Bribie G




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## the_new_darren

John: Look Ive grown a new fruit?
Andrew: Thats not a new fruit, its an orange!!
John: Its not an orange, its a yellow Babouche!!!!
Andrew: Yeah....whatever 


Next thing we will see is the marked improvement of this fantastic new innovation is:

Stainless steel buckets
March pumps
PID controlled interface

Then it will be complete!!!!

From: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17-2.html

"The original (at least the most popularized) home lautering system was probably the bucket-in-a-bucket false bottom championed by Charlie Papazian in The Complete Joy of Homebrewing (1984). "

Looks like Briber and Bastard are 27 years tooooo late

cheers

tnd


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## felten

see kids, THAT is what you call a troll ^


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## the_new_darren

Troll or informing the KIDS that what is being proposed in this thread is at least 27 years old????

trolls make comments that have nothing useful to add to a discussion thread.

ie: Those trolls who just post TROLL


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## MarkBastard

Correct me if I'm wrong, Palmer is referring to a Lautering system as part of a 4 vessel brewery that just so happens to use buckets, and two of them at that. If you think it's the same thing you are literally senile. Not that anyone was claiming to be doing anything new anyway. This is just an assumption that some idiots have come up with.


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## jyo

the_new_darren said:


> John: Look Ive grown a new fruit?
> Andrew: Thats not a new fruit, its an orange!!
> John: Its not an orange, its a yellow Babouche!!!!
> Andrew: Yeah....whatever
> 
> 
> Next thing we will see is the marked improvement of this fantastic new innovation is:
> 
> Stainless steel buckets
> March pumps
> PID controlled interface
> 
> Then it will be complete!!!!
> 
> From: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17-2.html
> 
> "The original (at least the most popularized) home lautering system was probably the bucket-in-a-bucket false bottom championed by Charlie Papazian in The Complete Joy of Homebrewing (1984). "
> 
> Looks like Briber and Bastard are 27 years tooooo late
> 
> cheers
> 
> tnd



Seems this has been said before too.- YAWN

I hope this method of producing wort doesn't lead to botulism...


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## Tanga

It wouldn't be a show without punch.


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## MarkBastard

darren_bot_2.0


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Sharing of ideas, even allegedly regurgitated ones is WRONG!

Thank you tnd for reminding all of us of this.

I'm sure I'll never share anything ever again - because everything I've done, every recipe I've ever created, copied or altered and everything I've ever brought - is obviously already done, and I will appear foolish by telling anyone.

And get rid of these new-fangled forum thingies - all they do is spread old ideas that everyone should already know.

Goomba


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## Nick JD

Can you imagine how crap the lives are of people who feel the need to detract from everyone else's efforts, whether the innovation is only a subtle change on an old method, or a different way of doing something?

To come onto a web forum and slam other's efforts? 

Gotta feel sorry for them, really. Gotta feel even more sorry for their children.


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## kymba

Nick JD said:


> Gotta feel sorry for them, really. Gotta feel even more sorry for their children.


can you imagine that they reproduce? fark, help us all


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## Fat Bastard

Mark^Bastard said:


> You sure that was grain in a bucket? There was a pic recently where someone made an actual BIAB bag with a thicker material for the sides and a mesh bottom, and the grain pulled away from the sides very easily. A bucket's plastic surely would be very similar to an eski mash tun so I'm not sure how what you've said could be the case, but I'll definitely look for that now so that we know whether or not it happens.



Yeah that was me. This thread is so full of butthurt it's making my false bottom sore.

I'm going to try a S/S mesh bucket and putting a S/S mesh insert over my false bottom and doing away with the bucket/bag altogether in the future, but I probably won't bother posting about it here if re-discovering old techniques gets so many people offside.

Y'know what, I tasted my first ever AG on the weekend, and while it wasn't great and it wasn't like I expected, it was a good drinkable beer. Better than commercial pisswater anyway. I made a shedload of mistakes doing it, and if I can make mistakes and _still_ produce drinkable beers, I don't see any problems with tuning a process to suit both my circumstances and tastes in beer!

And bugger it, I'll have fun doing it!


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## the_new_darren

Thirty year old technology....I thought it was just a rumour about Qld but obviously it is true!!

Briber: Look Ive just reinvented something that has been common knowledge to the rest of the world for the last 30 years
Bastard: Thats a fantastic idea, how come no-one has ever thought of that before?
Briber: I dont know, just get down on your knees and suck my dick
Bastard: Sure, do you want me to hummmm.
Briber: Shut up Darren, Bastard is sucking me off and I am enjoying it


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## the_new_darren

Fat Bastard said:


> Yeah that was me. This thread is so full of butthurt it's making my false bottom sore.
> 
> I'm going to try a S/S mesh bucket and putting a S/S mesh insert over my false bottom and doing away with the bucket/bag altogether in the future, but I probably won't bother posting about it here if re-discovering old techniques gets so many people offside.
> 
> Y'know what, I tasted my first ever AG on the weekend, and while it wasn't great and it wasn't like I expected, it was a good drinkable beer. Better than commercial pisswater anyway. I made a shedload of mistakes doing it, and if I can make mistakes and _still_ produce drinkable beers, I don't see any problems with tuning a process to suit both my circumstances and tastes in beer!
> 
> And bugger it, I'll have fun doing it!



FB,

Give it a go. I suspect that your mesh will clog and you will end-up with a stuck mash. But hey, I could be wrong.

cheers

tnd


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## yardy

Fat Bastard said:


> *I'm going to try a S/S mesh bucket and putting a S/S mesh insert over my false bottom and doing away with the bucket/bag altogether in the future*



I'm aware the whole plastic argument has been done to death but this is the road i would go as well.


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## MarkBastard

the_new_darren said:


> FB,
> 
> Give it a go. I suspect that your mesh will clog and you will end-up with a stuck mash. But hey, I could be wrong.
> 
> cheers
> 
> tnd


Even though you are a wanker at least you have given some relevent and specific advice in this particular circumstance!


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## ShredMaster

Onya Fat Bastard!! Personally I'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas about your false bottom changes and see how it worked out for ya. **** em if they can't handle it, I'm having a blast reading about how this system is supposed to work out given a fresh set of opinions after 20 or so years since it has been "commonplace". I'm wrestling with my own system but working out the kinks as I go, sticking to my motto of "well it used to make beer a long time ago for the bloke that gave it to me, I will not be outsmarted by a bucket with holes in it and I _will_ get it working dammit!"

I happened to churn out my first full batch AG with my bucket-in-bucket setup. The bottom of the mash bucket is full of 1/8" holes and today's effort was 4.5kg grain and was letting some of the grain through. I recirculated via the jug a few times onto a plastic lid floating on the grain bed, splashed the living **** out of it in the process, and I repeated this 3 times for about 4L or so each time... :drinks: We'll see what effect it has but the buckets held the mash temp at 66'c the whole time, recirculated with the element on for the whole 2 minutes each cycle. 

Notes: 

The bucket-in-bucket system works well enough to make wort
When removing the mash bucket from the boil-bucket, there is suction and it takes a fair bit of effort to get it apart initially, then it's just a matter of lifting to drain
The bucket I have lets grain through, about 20 odd grain bits on the bottom of the kettle after the boil, next time I will line the bucket with the bag and have Brew-In-A-Bag-In-A-Bucket-In-A-Bucket-Of-Death-Single-Vessel-System, which is a whole new concept and means that the BIAB purists and the New/Old Bucketheads can BOTH argue about the idea....
The grain must have slipped through at dough-in, the mash was really slow to drain. I put the mash bucket in another spare bucket to drain and "sparged" with another 4L to top up to my pre-boil volume. Left it to drain, poured into kettle (yes, splashed the **** out of it again, heh I'm good)
Immersion chiller works really really well, until about 38'c, then seems to do **** all unless I want to just keep the water running. Need to look at a cheapo (read: free or salvaged) pond pump and use a spare garbage bin with ice bottles and water to pump through once the temp has dropped far enough. I'd rather get the wort to pitching temp asap as the kettle-bucket has cracks around the top and will not seal with a lid to "no-chill"...
I really would like to know more about how people managed to brew their beer with this type of setup all those years ago. It seems that science and brewing has well advanced since then and the concept kind of faded away. There is no problem with brewing in a bag, bucket, esky or whateverthefuck you can manage to mash some grains in as long as you are having fun and making drinkable beer. Personally I love Bribie's efforts to kick this concept off watching it evolve from a simple thought (Bribie: "hrm, I wonder what....") into actually getting rid of unused gear and fine tuning a process which works for him, and which I personally like to read about the results and findings.

I'll be tweaking my setup as I go and this thread is a good place to see how others have tried and failed to implement whatever improvement they feel important, ie: mesh filters, pumps, skyhooks, etc.

Cheers,
Shred.


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## Fat Bastard

the_new_darren said:


> FB,
> 
> Give it a go. I suspect that your mesh will clog and you will end-up with a stuck mash. But hey, I could be wrong.
> 
> cheers
> 
> tnd



I think I will give it a go. Seing as My FB is 3 mm perf stainless, and is octagonal, 3 inches off the bottom of my round pot, and I have access to all available gauges of S/S sieve mesh from .05mm (which worked ace as a hop blocker, by not letting any hops or wort for that matter through) up to about 10mm, I suspect I'll screw it up once or twice.

Unless you've got some good ideas to point me in the right direction. My current hop blocker is .4mm mesh, so I figure 1.5-2mm mesh might be a good starting point for the FB or mesh bucket. Then I can dig it all out with a big slotted spoon and call it a Malt Shovel for extra brewing credability.


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## the_new_darren

ShredMaster said:


> I will not be outsmarted by a bucket with holes in it and I _will_ get it working dammit!"
> 
> 
> The bucket I have lets grain through, about 20 odd grain bits on the bottom of the kettle after the boil, next time I will line the bucket with the bag and have Brew-In-A-Bag-In-A-Bucket-In-A-Bucket-Of-Death-Single-Vessel-System, which is a whole new concept and means that the BIAB purists and the New/Old Bucketheads can BOTH argue about the idea....
> Cheers,
> Shred.




Why are you worried about 20 grain bits? Surely you could "strain" them out prior to the boil?
I suspect that adding a "bag", "mesh" to the bucket will cause more problems than it is worth (it will clog especially if you are recirculating)

tnd


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## ShredMaster

the_new_darren said:


> Why are you worried about 20 grain bits? Surely you could "strain" them out prior to the boil?
> I suspect that adding a "bag", "mesh" to the bucket will cause more problems than it is worth (it will clog especially if you are recirculating)
> 
> tnd



How would I "strain" them out when they are in the "kettle" in a "single vessel" setup?


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## the_new_darren

Personally, I wouldn't worry about them. 

If you feel the "need" then a strainer under the top bucket would work. If you put it under the grain in the bucket it will eventually block and you will then have the unenviable job of scooping out 5 kilos of grain. I can assure you its not fun.

tnd


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## Bribie G

Quote from the New Darrun:

"yip yip yip yap yip yip yap yap yip yap yap..................."

Silly annoying little man

edit: 

Silly annoying little background rattle like that rattle under a dash that spoils every journey.


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## MarkBastard

the_new_darren said:


> Personally, I wouldn't worry about them.
> 
> If you feel the "need" then a strainer under the top bucket would work. If you put it under the grain in the bucket it will eventually block and you will then have the unenviable job of scooping out 5 kilos of grain. I can assure you its not fun.
> 
> tnd


More actual specific advice! Take note guys, an arsehole can change its spots.


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## Malted

Mark^Bastard said:


> More actual specific advice! Take note guys, an arsehole can change its spots.



http://www.onlyanalbleaching.com/what-is-anal-bleaching/ "This process helps in maintaining Total Colo-Rectal Beauty."


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## mckenry

ShredMaster said:


> How would I "strain" them out when they are in the "kettle" in a "single vessel" setup?



Hey ShredM
Any grain should float to the top just before your boil starts. Sieve them out then.


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## ShredMaster

mckenry said:


> Hey ShredM
> Any grain should float to the top just before your boil starts. Sieve them out then.



Cool mate, I'll check next batch. I didn't see any floaties when I started the boil last time however I may not have been looking for them as intently as I will next time. I'm still gonna try the bag in the mash bucket and see how it goes. Either my grain is ground too fine for the holes in the bucket or I need a finer filter mesh of sorts.

Cheers,
Shred.


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## technoicon

the_new_darren said:


> John: Look Ive grown a new fruit?
> Andrew: Thats not a new fruit, its an orange!!
> John: Its not an orange, its a yellow Babouche!!!!
> Andrew: Yeah....whatever



john: Look i'm going to try and grow an orange tree, i'm doing it in a bucket.
andrew: that's not new, people did that years ago.
john: really that's crazy, were can i find their results?
andrew: in the ground is the only way.
john: well i'll try it anyway, and i'll tell you my results.
andrew: yeah ... whatever. i'd have to have an open mind to except that

it's not about renaming brewing beer.. your missing the point.. people want to do this.. i've had the thought for ages... i dont care if it works or if it doesnt.. i have never seen someone try out the different methods.

Honestly I think this thread will probably save me a few hunderd dollars. because i wont have to do these experiments. If it gets close to what i want, then i'll do my own and decide for myself.

god this thread is funny!!


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## MarkBastard

For the record I have spent $19 so far on extra things I bought specifically to test this method of brewing.

I bought the pump to flood my font but thought I'd give it a go with this first, so not counting that $40.


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## technoicon

the pump is what i'm most interested in. i'll probably buy the same bucket this weekend.. give it a go.. 

lifting a 10kg bag sucks. hopefully a bucket is easier. (hoist)


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## Bribie G

Mark you are a spendthrift - I've spent $15 (Masters Bucket and a Woolies Strainer). 
Hang on, just remembered I got some Araldite to do the handle.
And a snap lock. 

Oh dear the bailiffs are on their way 

A.F. get the shorter wider bucket from normal hardware store or Masters, not the Bunnings Handi pail which is taller and thinner, if you are going to put it in an urn.


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## MarkBastard

Heh, my bucket was $13 and my splatter guard was $6 Bribie.

Actually going into Ikea was so painful though. Argh, I hate that place.


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## technoicon

ill see what i can find.. i have a 80lt pot so will see how this works in that.


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## mikec

Hey Bribie / Nala

How are you going with your bucket in urn brewing?
Are you still doing it this way?
Anything you would do different?

I have been putting together a plan for a single vessel bucket in pot system, to replace the infamous bag. As I live in a small rental apartment, space is precious, and mounting pulleys and skyhooks and so on is not an option. So I'm coming up with a way for the bucket to be suspended in the pot at various heights. I will recirculate the liquid from the tap in the pot back up to the top of the mash, while ramping up the step mashes, and at the end for filtering. I can sparge by just pouring water into the top of the bucket while it's suspended.

Unfortunately I'm going away for a couple of weeks so the project will have to wait. When I do it I'll put up some pics, assuming it all works.


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