# Cost effectiveness of ingredients - Kit vs Extract vs All Grain?



## panzerd18 (9/12/14)

After coming home from my homebrew store and paying around $46 worth of ingredients for a Kit beer, I was wondering what the cost effectiveness would be compared to Extract and All Grain?

Excluding equipment costs, and basing the answer purely on ingredient costs per 23 litre batch, which is the cheapest to make between Kit, Extract and All Grain?


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## Yob (9/12/14)

Plenty of threads on this already, ag shits on kits and bits, buy in bulk and it's under $1/L for me I rekon.. Haven't fully priced it inclusive of gas and power but can't make too much difference


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## paulyman (9/12/14)

My extract brews were costing me the same for a 23L batch, but excluding postage they would have been closer to $36. Now that I've switched to all grain, am on the grain bill at the LHBS and am buying hops in larger quantities from said store my costs have dropped dramatically to the $25 ish mark. I could go even lower by getting a mill and bulk buying grain, but the grain book isn't too bad and I get the grain milled as part of the package deal.

The biggest cost savings for me have been the bulk buying. For kits and extract the coopers store often gives you free delivery and a cheaper price if you join up. 

#edit - Yob said it more efficiently than my ramblings.


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## Bomber Watson (9/12/14)

When you buy hops in bulk (I buy them off the fine lad in post #2) and re use your yeast cake, extract is shit tonnes cheaper than kits using LME. Waiting for cheeky peak to get more DME in so i can do a bit of a BB there and it will be cheaper again....And the product is 10000% better without the isohops and with less guesswork as to the bittering your getting from each addition. 

Most expensive extract i do atm which has 3 tins of LME and about 150gm of hops works out to <$40, and is well and above anything you will get with a kit...Average kit and bit type recipe works out to ~$25 and tastes way better.

Coopers kits used to be alright value, but i havnt purchased one since i discovered there malt products were hallal certified. Its against my religion to send money to other countries whilst buying an Australian made product. 

Time wise, doesnt take to much longer, depending on what your doing with your kits. If your time poor like me with a full time job, a contract job on the side, as well as a few other little jobs on the go, and work out what you could be making working on them as opposed to brewing...This is a plus. 

Have yet to go AG, and I cant buy grain anywhere locally thats not ludicrous. Only LHBS i have wants $14 for 1kg of crystal for example. Postage (for me) on a 25kg bag is around $35 so really bumps the price of a ~$50 bag of 2 row up quiet a bit....Doing the sums it would still work out a bit cheaper than extract....But "brewday" will go from about 2 hours from getting out of the couch to cleanup to 6ish from what i gather, plus more cleanup, etc, so time wise...Im happy with the tradeoff atm. 

Cheers.


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## danestead (9/12/14)

12 years ago when I was 18 and did half a dozen kit brews it used to cost me about $10 for the tin and a dollar or 2 for caps and carb drops. It was still barely worth drinking but was as cheap as goon and tasted just marginally better!


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## Bomber Watson (9/12/14)

I was ust thinking that after posting, you can get down to about 30c a tallie....15c a schooner, with a kit on sale at IGA and a kilo of sugar....And I did do this back in the dark ages....But **** that now days haha.


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## droid (9/12/14)

in my experience a tin of lme and some sugar is the cheapest way to make beer, grain so far has cost way more, for starters I cant go to the supermarket and buy it

still all grain tho because imho it tastes better and is more flexible, but have gone back to extract for fast beer and its alright

but that wasn't your question

happy for someone to point me towards a place that can kit me up with 5kg of grain and some yeast for less than $15

<edit> kits for me have been hideou$ely expen$ive, once brought two heineken kits (mixed them together for one big batch) and did my one and only open top ferment - yep poored 50ltrs and at least $60 down the drain....dark days


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## danestead (9/12/14)

droid said:


> in my experience a tin of lme and some sugar is the cheapest way to make beer
> 
> my grain so far has cost me way more, for starters I cant go to the supermarket and buy it
> 
> ...


You can get Barrett Burston 25kg bags for $44 from a bloke south of Perth which works out to $8.80 for 5kg. Add $6 for US-05 and you are set! You might want to put some hops in it though!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/12/14)

Getting sacks of JW malt for less than $50 for 25kg, is $2 per kg, I use 5.5kg per brew (with the other .5 being spec malts at about $2.50 per kg), so that's $11.25 for malt, yeast I use about 3 batches from one pack of US05 or BRY97, so that's down to $1.50 and the hops cost me very little, I factor in about $4-6 for an IPA, less for a less hoppy variety, because I buy in bulk and pick up what's on special.

So for an AIPA, I'll spend less than $20 for 25L, for a British style beer, it goes down to around $10, due to lower OG, less hops, etc.


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## Blind Dog (9/12/14)

The average for me (AG) is less than $30 per 19L batch fully costed for ingredients, incl cleaning, sanitiser, co2 etc. and an allowance for electricity used. If I reused yeast, bought grain via bulk buys, or just more AU grain as opposed to Weyermann, TF etc that would drop to under $20.


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## menoetes (9/12/14)

I bulk buy my hops and extract, recycle my yeast and buy all my grains from a good supplier with cheap postage (National Homebrew; site sponsor). Despite the fact my efficiency (the amount of fermentable malt I get out of my grains) isn't super high, all grain brewing still comes out ahead on the over-all cost compared to extract.

However it's not by much and as I buy my liquid malt in 15kg growlers from the same source as my grains, I find partial brews make up for the small cost difference in the amount of time spent in brewing. 

Having said that, if I purchased grains in bulk as I do liquid extract, I'm sure the grains would come out well ahead again in dollar value. For sheer cost, not considering time (in the case of my slower cheap ghetto brewing methods) grain shits all over extract. 

The lesson IMHO is; extract brewing will always be faster than grain but grain will always be cheaper. You just need to decide how much your free time is worth I guess...


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## manticle (9/12/14)

My experience is that extract is the most expensive if you discount equipment (and that depends on desired setup).

That said, it's cheaper than bought beer of similar quality (if you make good beer) and I think many brewers just get to a point where making good beer is more important than making cheap beer. Bulk ingredients and yeast reculturing will save coin but you can do that with extract too.


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## buckerooni (9/12/14)

I recall an old recipe posted on this forum titled along the lines of 'desperation draught' which was a can of farmland draught & packet tin yeast and a bunch of sugar coming in at around $12. Hard to beat cost wise but depending on your tastes, hard to stomach taste wise  

From a pure cost perspective, you'd be pressed to throw less money at a 23L homebrew.

A beer like this can be supplemented a-la black'n'tan style with some Tun Bitter to have the best of both home and professional brewing :unsure:


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## wynnum1 (9/12/14)

ALL grain is cheap if buy in bulk and do not count labor costs.


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## manticle (9/12/14)

Why would anyone factor in labour costs for a hobby they enjoy?


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## petesbrew (9/12/14)

manticle said:


> Why would anyone factor in labour costs for a hobby they enjoy?


Labour costs only come into it if you're taking leave.


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## Busta (9/12/14)

I brew all grain because I enjoy the process and the product so happy to put the time in. 

Back of the envelope calculations (38 L batch) for a couple my go to brews are:
Hefeweizen $39 (all base malt and only hopped to 15IBU)
APA $65 (1.5kg of specialty malt and 250g of hops)
Oatmeal Stout $50 (2.25kg of specialty malt but only 100g of hops)


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/12/14)

Extract was the most expensive for me by a mile. 

Goo is cheaper but again, it's a taste thing for me.

So AG beats on a cost vs quality basis every time, which is the paremeters I choose to use to quantify my hobby.


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## droid (10/12/14)

right well I must have been paying through the nose, I read AG was cheaper but it hasn't turned out that way
gonna have to work something out


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## hwall95 (10/12/14)

I find all grain is far cheaper and generally costs me $25-$30 for grains and yeast + $3-$15 for hops as I buy in bulk from Yob. 

Even then if I reuse yeast it becomes a lot cheaper. Compared to my extract batches that generally ended up being $40-$60.

Even though I've only just recently got into all grain, IMO I really prefer all grain as you have a greater control over all aspects of the beer and you are actually brewing properly, rather then off-shooting the malt production to someone else. 

Sidenote: All grain also gives a few kilos of great fertiliser to keep you plants happy as well.


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## Bribie G (10/12/14)

I've just done a 35L partial to be bottled into 1.25L bottles and taken up to QLD over the holidays.

5 kg base malts, (barley / wheat) bought by the sack and milled at home
a tin of Coopers Canadian Blonde
1/3 pack of liquid yeast (assuming I run the yeast on to a couple more brews)
20g high alpha hops for bittering and 40g Galaxy for aroma.

One hour boil in urn.

All up around $36 or a dollar a litre for a 5.5 % ABV American wheat. So more or less as Yob reports.


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## bjbear77 (10/12/14)

manticle said:


> many brewers just get to a point where making good beer is more important than making cheap beer...


 +1


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## Tahoose (10/12/14)

Sounds like a couple of people are spending alot of money for AG brews. 

I can generally get away with somewhere in the range of $11-20 for a 23litre AG brew. 

Pay roughly $1.90/kg for base malt
And $0.60/10g of hops 

Maybe one pack of dry yeast will be used on 3-4 batches.


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## panzerd18 (10/12/14)

Where does one buy good malted grain in bulk?

I've found a store on ebay that sells 20kg bags of Light and Dark Malt Extract for $132.


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## Grott (10/12/14)

Just for interest, in the pub the other day and had a very ordinary pint of beer for $6. Went home and started on a very enjoyable kit English Bitter (Coopers) for which I can have 13 pints for my $6.


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## Goose (10/12/14)

AG is cheaper than kits or DME / LME based brews. But what is the price of your time, investing 5- 6 hours of cooking versus shake and stir ? :huh:


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## Blind Dog (10/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Where does one buy good malted grain in bulk?
> 
> I've found a store on ebay that sells 20kg bags of Light and Dark Malt Extract for $132.


Do you want malted grain or malt extract? If its grain, check out the site sponsors, if extract, the answer's probably the same.

I can recommend Grain and Grape for grains in your neck of the woods, but they are the only Vic based retailer I've ordered grain from, so it is not a reflection of other suppliers near you who may well be as good or better


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## Blind Dog (10/12/14)

Goose said:


> AG is cheaper than kits or DME / LME based brews. But what is the price of your time, investing 5- 6 hours of cooking versus shake and stir ? :huh:


There is no price on my time. I brew AG because I enjoy the process and control. The system I use lets me do other things during the mash / boil, although I always manage to find something that requires fiddling with (mind out of the gutter!). If I was just wanting cheap, decent beer quickly I'd stick to the better quality kits and bits and make sure they were fresh. I just found kits boring so havent brewed one for a very long time


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## manticle (10/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Where does one buy good malted grain in bulk?
> 
> I've found a store on ebay that sells 20kg bags of Light and Dark Malt Extract for $132.


25 kg of base grain in all bulk buys I've been part of would be around half that or less. Some premium/imported/whatever brands a bit more, some local a bit less.


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## Yob (10/12/14)

Blind Dog said:


> There is no price on my time. I brew AG because I enjoy the process and control. The system I use lets me do other things during the mash / boil, although I always manage to find something that requires fiddling with (mind out of the gutter!). If I was just wanting cheap, decent beer quickly I'd stick to the better quality kits and bits and make sure they were fresh. I just found kits boring so havent brewed one for a very long time


I usually have a keg of CPA can + bits + hops going for the missus who dosnt quite get into the big malty IPA's (says they would make 2 nice beers, why does it have to be_* so*_ big?) so it's the best of both worlds for us, she has her tap, I have my taps and it's a pretty good fallback if I run out of Crafted beer B)


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## Moad (10/12/14)

similar to me Yob, I do the odd kits and bits can if I can't be bothered or need to get something out quick. Also have a ginger on tap for the mrs / her friends which they like more than the AG beers (much to my dismay).

Noone has mentioned the cost of getting setup for AG though. I know you can do it cheap but I like shiny stuff!


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## Nizmoose (10/12/14)

Just speaking from 1 AG batch of experience. I normally do small batches of 10L or so, an extract batch I'd be looking at roughly 15 bucks for a pale ale without yeast (I have been washing us05) and my first ag cost me about $10 without yeast. That's for about the smallest batch anyone would use and is a saving of 5 bucks so scaling up you'd save a lot and that's also buying grain milled and a kg or two at a time so I'd say my 30 percent saving is about as small as you'd expect to get and with bulk buying and milling much more could be achieved


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## Tahoose (10/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Where does one buy good malted grain in bulk?
> 
> I've found a store on ebay that sells 20kg bags of Light and Dark Malt Extract for $132.


Where are you located mate? In Melbourne you can pick up a 25kg sack of base malt from one of the cheaper brands for under $50


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## Tahoose (10/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Where does one buy good malted grain in bulk?
> 
> I've found a store on ebay that sells 20kg bags of Light and Dark Malt Extract for $132.


Where are you located mate? In Melbourne you can pick up a 25kg sack of base malt from one of the cheaper brands for under $50


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## mofox1 (10/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> After coming home from my homebrew store and paying around $46 worth of ingredients for a Kit beer, I was wondering what the cost effectiveness would be compared to Extract and All Grain?
> 
> Excluding equipment costs, and basing the answer purely on ingredient costs per 23 litre batch, which is the cheapest to make between Kit, Extract and All Grain?


It's been answered previously, but here's my take. AG **is** cheaper. Quite a lot cheaper... but even at $65 for a Fresh Wort Kit + yeast and finishing hops it's still only around $3/L, or a dollar a stubbie. Which is still at least 4 or so times cheaper than good "craft" beer and it will be just as good. I reckon some of the best beer I've made fermented was from an Amarillo Pale FWK bought in boronia.

Going AG, and buying ingredients in bulk, will at least halve those costs. Including power, my batches are between $20 to $30... but the reason for AG is the passion of brewing.



panzerd18 said:


> Where does one buy good malted grain in bulk?
> 
> I've found a store on ebay that sells 20kg bags of Light and Dark Malt Extract for $132.


If you're in the eastern side of town there is **at least** Full Pint, Keg King & Core Brewing Concepts where you can get bulk grain. Apologies to any other fine retailers whom I've missed out through for no other reason than my own ignorance. As mentioned earlier, check the site sponsors for more.

I think Keg King and CBC do bulk DME bags. Never purchased that much in one go, but from memory I've seen it for ~$120 per sack (at whatever weight that was - probably 20kg).


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## nvs-brews (10/12/14)

(extract) i was buying damaged tins for $10 recently.. coles had some for $8.. and sometimes out of date ones from the local HBS (not doing that again), but on average with yeast and hops was looking at about $1.50 a ltr... ive done some good recipes that i will do again but cost more like $2 a ltr

(grain) just won a free 25kg bag of pale malt, so just some hops and yeast and a bit of specialty grain... working out cheaper so far..

BUT with the extract i can knock out a beer i am happy with in about 45mins.. and that pitch ready..
my 1st grain took about 4hrs to make, and then no chill so had to wait till morning to pitch yeast... and the cleaning..

so if your time counts, grain is alot more expensive,,,
personally ive just got into AG and im doing it for the fun and the love...


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## contrarian (10/12/14)

Here's my breakdown for about 40L into fermenters or 2 full cornies and a few bottles packaged. All estimates are on the conservative side.

8.5kg grain @ $2.30/kg = $19.55 (grain purchased through a local bulk buy)
~100g hops @ $30/kg = $3 (purchased through local bulk buy)
whirlfloc @ 10c (bought a 1kg container for around $40)
gas around $7 (4 brews from a 9kg bottle)
yeast $4 (I normally reuse yeast at least once, often 3-4 times for liquid yeast)
Electricity and water is difficult to estimate but probably a few dollars per brew.

Total cost: $33.65 plus electricity and water.

This is for a basic beer with an OG of around 1.045ish, obviously I have made beers that had all sorts of adjuncts that would have cost a lot more and obviously higher gravity, hoppy beers cost more, but they do at the shops too.

All grain can be pretty cheap but the ability to buy ingredients in bulk is the key. If you are buying milled grain from a LBS for $5/kg then obviously it costs a lot more!

The difference I have found since going all grain is also that my friends now look forward to drinking my homebrew


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## Weizguy (10/12/14)

> The average for me (AG) is less than $30 per 19L batch fully costed for ingredients, incl cleaning, sanitiser, co2 etc. and an allowance for electricity used. If I reused yeast, bought grain via bulk buys, or just more AU grain as opposed to Weyermann, TF etc that would drop to under $20.


I have downsized to a 21 litre batch now that I have a brew bucket.

Generally around/under $20 for a low-hopped ale, recycling previously acquired yeast (some from the lhbs, some from friends or case swaps). American blonde, German pils/ Helles, American wheat are cheap enough.
The cost can/will double (or more)with a huge hoppy IIPA, despite the good prices from my lhbs (they know who they are).

So, it can be done for under $1/litre.


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## JDW81 (10/12/14)

Goose said:


> AG is cheaper than kits or DME / LME based brews. But what is the price of your time, investing 5- 6 hours of cooking versus shake and stir ? :huh:


True, but you also spend a lot of money on gear when you move into AG. It does pay for itself in the long run, but is still an outlay you don't necessarily have to make when extract brewing.

JD


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## manticle (10/12/14)

Some do spend but you don't have to.


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## Tahoose (10/12/14)

Let forget time, and money spent on equipment as it's a hobby. 

Purely on ingredients is the key factor here.


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## mje1980 (10/12/14)

I've got no idea how much a batch of my beer costs.


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## Blind Dog (10/12/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I have downsized to a 21 litre batch now that I have a brew bucket.
> 
> Generally around/under $20 for a low-hopped ale, recycling previously acquired yeast (some from the lhbs, some from friends or case swaps). American blonde, German pils/ Helles, American wheat are cheap enough.
> The cost can/will double (or more)with a huge hoppy IIPA, despite the good prices from my lhbs (they know who they are).
> ...


Agreed it can be done for <$1 a litre



I could brew 19L (kegged) plus 4L (bottled) of a standard English bitter for about $16 for the main ingredients ($9 for 3.8kg bulk grain, $3 for 50g of bulk hops and $4 for dry yeast) plus $2 for cleaner and sanitiser and about $4 for power (brew and for fermenting fridge). It could be cheaper yet if I used local grains (which can sometimes be had for about $1.50 kg in 20kg+ quantities).



But I only buy base malt (MO, pils and Munich) in bulk and spec malts in 1 to 5kg bags, I tend to use liquid yeast (and don’t reuse – yet) and a lot of my recent beers have been heavily late hopped apas. That all pushes the price of ingredients up.



But it’s still very cheap



Even if I factor in a depreciation cost for my equipment, it still cheap. A slab of decent craft beer (8L to 8.4L usually) is $70 and up, so at $50 a batch to allow for hefty depreciation on equipment, I’m ahead $150 a batch.



Given the amount I drink, I’ll soon be a very rich man


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