# No Chiller Method Disasters and Successes



## SJW (20/10/07)

Well boys I am in a state of utter distress. I have been the biggest convert to the NO CHILLER METHOD but I went down stairs under the house this morning to find my glorious double hopped golden ale sitting in my NO CHILLED cube looking like a beach ball, with about 2cm's of foam on top.
I dont know what went wrong. I think TL might of hit the nail on the head as (I hate to admit it) it was a pool no chiller. But I did it over a week ago and has been fine. The cube has been used many times before but I hit it with the Iodophor prior to filling then dumped in the pool.
Anyway I pitched a US/56 in it this morning and I will see what happens.
Any chance that this picked up some nice clean fermenting wild yeast that will impart no off flavors?
I just thought it was my duty to report this sad loss and give anyone else the chance to grieve along with me.

Steve


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## Bobby (20/10/07)

I believe that you aren't the first to experience this after crash cooling the cube. There really isn't any need to do it.

At least you now have an excuse to brew again...


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## tangent (20/10/07)

same here. must be a chilling thing, but i was trying to stop the cube from melting, which happened the time before.
Do you no chillers wait until low 90's before transfer or what? Does your hose lose a bit of heat as well maybe?


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/10/07)

tangent said:


> same here. must be a chilling thing, but i was trying to stop the cube from melting, which happened the time before.
> Do you no chillers wait until low 90's before transfer or what? Does your hose lose a bit of heat as well maybe?



I try to get a bit of a whirlpool happening these days before leaving it no more than about 10-15 minutes. I then open the valve a little and let the decanting begin. It's still *very* hot when it hits the cube. I used to just turn off the power and straight into the cube, but stopped in an effort to reduce the amount of glorp in the cube. Either way, although the cube gets quite nice and soft, both my originals are still in use today and quite serviceable. I'm wondering if you're using a different plastic to me, or if the boiling point of water is higher at your house than mine?  

It's a horrible feeling when you botch (or suspect you have botched) a batch - very distressing.


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## Bobby (20/10/07)

I transfer as soon as i turn the flame out - trub and all goes in. I use the blue cubes from K-mart and have never had an issue with them softening too much. As it happens, it is usually an effort to squeeze them in to expel the air.


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## SJW (20/10/07)

Yep. From memory I left this one quite a while in the kettle prior to tranfer to the cube. But I might try just dumping straight into the cube and NOT THROWING IN THE POOL to cool. 
I am gutted. And a little pissed at 11am Saturday morning. Its a bad feeling. TL might have a point. Refer to "users of the No Chiller Method". 
Anyway it is a bad feeling. Any chance this might turn out OK?


Steve


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## domonsura (20/10/07)

I don't understand this no chill thing to be honest. Now I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, but I am conflicted by 3 main points;

1.When I put cold water in a plastic jerry can and leave it for a few days, it comes out tasting distinctively like plastic. This has always been the case, and still is, with every plastic container I have ever used to store water.

2. I have listened to heaps of people on this site express concern about the type of hosing they use to transfer hot/cold liquids around their brewery, even to the point of saying not to use a garden hose to fill their kettle/hlt, because of possible contamination by plasticisers.

3. and yet people are happy to pour nearly boiling wort into plastic containers, softening them horrendously some of them - and leave their fresh wort stewing whatever out of plastic that was never designed to withstand 90 degrees C...............

Please note that my concerns extend only to the plastic side of things, as I'm not really concerned about any possible detrimental effects on the beer by it cooling naturally - because that's up to the individual I suppose - and the method clearly works for lots of people......but are none of you concerned at all about what the plastic leaches into your beer? Not even just a little bit? :huh: 

You couldn't pay me to pour my wort _straight from the boil _into a plastic container...... :mellow:


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## PostModern (20/10/07)

SJW said:


> I dont know what went wrong. I think TL might of hit the nail on the head as (I hate to admit it) it was a pool no chiller.



I think it might have been me.



tangent said:


> same here. must be a chilling thing, but i was trying to stop the cube from melting, which happened the time before.
> Do you no chillers wait until low 90's before transfer or what? Does your hose lose a bit of heat as well maybe?



Use a proper cube. The big white cube shaped thick HDPE cubes sold by Cospak, Plaspak or whatever they're called these days are idea. The walls are nice and thick, and the shape is right. The jerry-can shaped ones have too tall a side and too narrow a front and back for my liking. They look like they'll bend in a stiff breeze.

My method is to wait until convection stops (when the little chunks of hot break stop circling) then whirlpool for 2-3 mins, then lid the kettle and wait until all movement has again stopped, then rack to cube thru a strong, reinforced hose. When full, seal the lid as tight as I can and flip the cube over to allow the heat to sanitise the lid and inside of the hollow handle. I usually leave it upside down until the next day, then either pitch or store until needed. Done about 20 or 25 brews so far this year and not had a single one go wrong.


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## PostModern (20/10/07)

domonsura said:


> I don't understand this no chill thing to be honest. Now I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, but I am conflicted by 3 main points;
> 
> 1.When I put cold water in a plastic jerry can and leave it for a few days, it comes out tasting distinctively like plastic. This has always been the case, and still is, with every plastic container I have ever used to store water.
> 
> ...



1. Do you ferment in SS or glass?

2. Garden hoses are rubber and not food grade. HDPE uses citric acid as a plasticiser, so at worst you'll leach a little orange juice into your wort.

3. Yep. Food Grade HDPE is stable (ie will not leach plasticisers) at up to 120C. All of this was thoroughly thrashed out in one or the other of the No Chill threads.

But if the vibe is all wrong for you, then don't do it. No-one will hold it against you


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## Bobby (20/10/07)

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from Domonsura. The thing is, it works and you do not get the plastic taste in the beer.

Alot of the debate on this forum and most others is debate for debates sake. If it works it works. Theory and postulation means nothing if in practice it does not hold true.

Cheers


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## domonsura (20/10/07)

Yep Pomo, I ferment in plastic - but nothing goes into the plastic hot which was my point. - but thanks for clearing those points up for me about HDPE. I use a chiller, so I was just asking, I haven't bothered to read the no chill thread/s because they are 10 miles long and I don't have a spare 12 months to read it all 

Still couldn't pay me to pour my hot wort into HDPE- The vibe is ALL wrong and the feng shui is too bad :lol: I'm too scared I'll come back as a Lion Nathan employee. :blink:

but if it works for you guys, all good!...carry on.......


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## PostModern (20/10/07)

It's all good brew-brother. Some of my best friends have immersion chillers.


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## domonsura (20/10/07)

PostModern said:


> It's all good brew-brother. Some of my best friends have immersion chillers.




What's an immersion chiller? :lol:


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## bindi (20/10/07)

A little off topic but close.
I have had 2 cubes spit this month doing the NC, mind you they did have had a lot of hot wort in them week after week [90% were NC over night only], so there is a limit to how many times you can put very hot wort in a cube and squeeze any air out  only a small split and they held over night with cloth tap over the spilt with the air expelled.
These cubes were the very good food grade ones also, so they do have a life span but well worth it IMHO.


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## Kingy (20/10/07)

ive just had my first no chill cube expand as well.
I didnt leave notes when i brewed as i got carried away drinking my doppelbock and i found it hard to siphon the hot wort using the mouth and suck method. 
This may have had something to do with it. 
Ive never up ended the cube while hot to pastuerize the top either. And this particular cube got moved several times over the last week while i rearranged my brew shed.

I should of pitched the yeast a few weeks back but as the yeast was rehydrating the doppelbock got to me and i fell asleep on the lounge.
cheers,kingy

p.s still got another keg to get through of this doppelbock but im to scared to touch it. I always end up messy...


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## yardy (20/10/07)

tangent said:


> Do you no chillers wait until low 90's before transfer or what? Does your hose lose a bit of heat as well maybe?



i give the cube a big iodophor hit at the start of the boil, inverting occasionaly etc...

at flameout i drain the solution and wait until the wort is about 92*C or so after whirlpooling, i then run about 500ml into the cube, (good way of getting rid of any unwanted trub in the tap etc), give it a good shake & drain to get rid of any excess Iodophor (i use an extra strong solution on the cube) and then slowly transfer 25lt of clear wort via food grade hose to the cube ready for pitching in the am.
I'm no AG Guru with my numbers only in the high teens but i havn't had any off flavours, infections etc.

Cheers
Yard


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## Pumpy (20/10/07)

domonsura said:


> I don't understand this no chill thing to be honest. Now I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, but I am conflicted by 3 main points;
> 
> 1.When I put cold water in a plastic jerry can and leave it for a few days, it comes out tasting distinctively like plastic. This has always been the case, and still is, with every plastic container I have ever used to store water.
> 
> ...



Do you sell Fresh Wort Kits ?


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## Uncle Fester (20/10/07)

domonsura said:


> I don't understand this no chill thing to be honest. Now I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, but I am conflicted by 3 main points;
> 
> 1.When I put cold water in a plastic jerry can and leave it for a few days, it comes out tasting distinctively like plastic. This has always been the case, and still is, with every plastic container I have ever used to store water.



Do you ferment in stainless steel, glass, or (perish the thought) Plastic?

I get no noticable taste tainting from the plastic. Then again, water doesn't have a great deal of malt or hops in it to mask the plastic flavours?

Fester.


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## jimmyjack (21/10/07)

> Still couldn't pay me to pour my hot wort into HDPE- The vibe is ALL wrong and the feng shui is too bad I'm too scared I'll come back as a Lion Nathan employee.



Hey maybey you have a point. I started to work for Lion Nathan right around the time I started no chilling  Best job I have ever had!

Cheers jj


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## matti (21/10/07)

> Do you no chillers wait until low 90's before transfer or what? Does your hose lose a bit of heat as well maybe?



it only takes 40Litres of boiling water 15 minutes to lose 10 degrees if you leave the lid off.
The longer the food grade hose is the more the temp will drop again. 
The cube is also cool and air in it.
All this will contribute the wort to drop in temperature. While still hot to touch, it wouldnt be much higher then 80 degrees leaving it the cube for another 1/2 hour.

The leaching of plastic, if any, will reduce with the temperature drop and completely stop once wort around 65.
So leaving the cube immersed in the pool shouldn't be detrimental. if you are worried, only leave it there until temp dropped to 60.

(Leaving wort to chill in metal pots over night MAY cause a lot more oxidation then in cubes.)


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## domonsura (21/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> Do you sell Fresh Wort Kits ?



NOPE. I sell grain. I encourage people to HTFU and make their own wort ....

Fester - that's exactly my point - just because there are malt and hops in there to disguise the taint, doesn't mean it isn't there anymore. Just that our taste buds can no longer differentiate between the malt/hops and taint.

Jimmyjack - Glad you enjoy being a minion of satan..........I used to be one as well.....but then I've done a few things I'm not proud of....


And some of you are STILL missing the one little point I was making, whilst you repeatedly ask if I ferment in glass, stainless or (god forbid?) plastic, as if it's the same thing....

HOT wort into plastic is what I think is dodgy. Not fermenting in plastic. And for the record, if I could afford to replace all of my fermenter vessels with glass or stainless, it would happen so fast the wifes head would spin. Of all the home breweries I have visited over the last couple of years,
I reckon only 50% of the people who have been no-chilling have actually been using HDPE containers. The rest (who shall remain nameless) have been using various nasty cheap rubbish containers, which is why I asked the question, because quite clearly not everyone uses containers made from material appropriate for food or the temperatures.

I DO NOT have a problem with no-chill, as I have already said. No chill is a cool thing that I'd probably do if I didn't have a chiller. But I'd probably score a stainless container for it....


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## SJW (22/10/07)

> QUOTE(SJW @ Oct 20 2007, 10:38 AM)
> I dont know what went wrong. I think TL might of hit the nail on the head as (I hate to admit it) it was a pool no chiller.
> 
> 
> I think it might have been me.



Sorry Bud, I was in a bit of a state. I got my PM's and TL's mixed up.
I still dont know boys. As I said I have done a lot of No Chiller brews with no probs, even when dumping in the pool. The only diff with this one was that I left it in the kettle for about 30min, then put in the pool (in the sun). Also the bit of PVC tube is geting pretty old and cruddy now and I dont iodophor it.
Also I think the other brew I did that day, the Duvel clone for the case swap is infected too. It went off like a bomb with a big starter of slurry from a previous Belgian strong but it has a bit of a funky taste to and after 7 days the gravity has stopped at 1030, and this is the Wyeast Belgian Strong.
So unless the boys in the swap can deal with a mix of 2 or 3 brewsto make up my 28 for the swap I might need to pull the pin. But thats another thread.
Not happy.
I guess I started this thread to find out if anyone else has had a similar experience.  :angry: 

Steve


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## crozdog (22/10/07)

domonsura said:


> No chill is a cool thing that I'd probably do if I didn't have a chiller. But I'd probably score a stainless container for it....



but how do you squeeze the sides in to expell the air in the headspace? B) h34r:


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## Doc (22/10/07)

As per another topic, I had one swell up about 12 NC's ago. It had prev been stored for 2 months before going bad. That batch was 2 NC cubes and the second one is still sitting waiting to be fermented.

I had another start to go about 2 months ago. I noticed one night that it had a little headspace in the cube. I'd just kegged its sister cube, so opened and pitched on the cake. It smelt and looked fine. It fermented normally and tastes great.

So out of ~40 brews this year of which 90% have been NC, and the majority (2 x 15 litre cubes), I have had only one go bad, and that was probably due to lack of care between rinsing and filling.

Doc


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## troywhite (22/10/07)

I'm impressed you guys store your NC cubes for so long.

I use the NC method but I drop straight to my fermenter and never leave it longer than overnight before pitching. (A night in Canberra is enough to drop the temperature to the mid 20's at the most).

I think SJW worked it out himself when he said he transfers with a bit of PVC tube that he never sanitises before use. It is most likely that you were unlucky enough that on this occassion something wrong went through the tube with the wort and survived the high temps.

PS: Domonsura, your esky SS false bottom is the best bit of kit I have put into my setup to date. I am so happy with it. Cheers man.


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## warrenlw63 (22/10/07)

Yeah I must confess that any longer than a week max in a cube scares the daylights out of me.  

I usually leave them no longer than 2 days.

I don't see N/C as a new and inventive way of compiling long-term unfermented beer stocks for a nuclear war. I view it totally as a method of saving water.

Warren -


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## SJW (22/10/07)

> I think SJW worked it out himself when he said he transfers with a bit of PVC tube that he never sanitises before use. It is most likely that you were unlucky enough that on this occassion something wrong went through the tube with the wort and survived the high temps.



Yep I think this and the fact that the wort was at a lower temp prior transfer + the pool thing all adds up to INFECTION. As I am sure that the sodium per. wash + Iodophor rinse had the cube in good shape.
Dont care about the grain so much just the time wasted is a killer. And the hops.

Anyway, lifes tough.  

Steve


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## Cortez The Killer (22/10/07)

I'm no no-chill veteran (10 batches) but I haven't had any infections 

The longest I've had wort in the cube is a bit over 2 weeks

After using a cube - i give it a good rinse clean with bleach

And then leave a fairly strong bleach + water solution in the cube whilst not in use. I seal the cube and leave it closed up until its next use.

During this time I'll lay the cube on its various sides and upside down and give it a good shake occasionally when i pass it.

Come brew day I'll give it a good rinse with water and a blast with idophor.

I've read in another thread that NNL lay their cubes on their side so the handle has direct contact with the hot wort after filling.

I'll be giving this a go too when I do my next batch. 

Cheers


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## bindi (22/10/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Yeah I must confess that any longer than a week max in a cube scares the daylights out of me.
> 
> I usually leave them no longer than 2 days.
> 
> ...




Ditto to that, only a couple of times has a NC cube gone past 48 hours before pitching the yeast, 40+ NC and not a drama.

Edit: Typos


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## yardy (22/10/07)

Cortez The Killer said:


> *I've read in another thread that NNL lay their cubes on their side so the handle has direct contact with the hot wort after filling.*



i use the 25lt rectangular job, as its getting close to full i slowly tilt it back whilst still *slowly* transferring, meanwhile the handle etc is filling, when the wort just starts to overflow from the cube i shut off the tap from the kettle, rip the hose out of the cube and cap it.
no squeezing of the sides etc and the whole cube is full of wort.
gets a bit hot on the hand holding the cube but i weld for a living so.......

Cheers


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## geoffi (22/10/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Yeah I must confess that any longer than a week max in a cube scares the daylights out of me.
> 
> I usually leave them no longer than 2 days.




I've had them hanging around as long as six weeks before pitching. The result? Some of the best beers I've ever brewed, IMHO. Not suggesting the wait had anything to do with the good outcome, but I don't think it caused any problems.


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## Kingy (22/10/07)

bindi said:


> Ditto to that, only a couple of times has a NC cube gone past 48 hours before pitching the yeast, 40+ NC and not a drama.
> 
> Edit: Typos



thats why i think my NC cube puffed up, as its the first cube ive left for a while (1 month) i usually pitch 3 days later.
In future ill be sticking to short term storage


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## Duff (22/10/07)

Kingy said:


> thats why i think my NC cube puffed up, as its the first cube ive left for a while (1 month) i usually pitch 3 days later.
> In future ill be sticking to short term storage



You must have sanitisation concerns then.

I've left NC cubes >6 months with no problems which have fermented out well. 

Many HB shops have fresh wort sitting on the shop floor for longer than 1 month.


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## Pumpy (22/10/07)

Duff said:


> You must have sanitisation concerns then.
> 
> I've left NC cubes >6 months with no problems which have fermented out well.
> 
> Many HB shops have fresh wort sitting on the shop floor for longer than 1 month.



I agree with Duff,

well two month for me and everthing is Ok. a good quality cube or those blue water containers Big W are fine 

anyone want to buy a copper chiller , $50

I will never go back to being a 'water waster '.

and all this clap trap from all the doubters 'Hoo Haar' that what I say .

Your not a real brewer unless you 'No Chill' these days.

Get out of the middle ages .

Embrace change 

Pumpy h34r:


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## Darren (22/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> I agree with Duff,
> 
> well two month for me and everthing is Ok. a good quality cube or those blue water containers Big W are fine
> 
> ...




Pumpy,

You have gone back to middle ages, where they realised that chilling was essential to make good beer  

cheers

Darren


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## Pumpy (22/10/07)

Darren said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> You have gone back to middle ages, where they realised that chilling was essential to make good beer
> 
> ...




Ok Darren Wins .

But please please no more 

'No Chill' threads !!!!! :mellow:


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## Screwtop (22/10/07)

Scanned through all of this conjecture, seems a waste of bandwidth really, 4,000 brewers 4,000 different opinions but when you bi-polarise an outcome like this (chill or no-chill) then what can you expect. Really who gives a fcuk.

So I believe another dimension should be added, who believes their brews should be circumcised, should we only circumcise no chill?


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## bindi (22/10/07)

Duff said:


> You must have sanitisation concerns then.
> 
> I've left NC cubes >6 months with no problems which have fermented out well.
> 
> Many HB shops have fresh wort sitting on the shop floor for longer than 1 month.



No sanitation [spelling!!] concerns here, I will do a long term test at some point, but can't wait to pitch the yeast [or waste water], or is it 'tempt the "Gods"'?


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## Pumpy (22/10/07)

Screwtop said:


> Scanned through all of this conjecture, seems a waste of bandwidth really, 4,000 brewers 4,000 different opinions but when you bi-polarise an outcome like this (chill or no-chill) then what can you expect. Really who gives a fcuk.
> 
> So I believe another dimension should be added, who believes their brews should be circumcised, should we only circumcise no chill?




I agree with Screwtop 

Nip the tip of the bud  


Pumpy


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## Barge (22/10/07)

Screwtop said:


> ... who believes their brews should be circumcised... ?



But my efficiencies at 60% as it is


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## Zizzle (22/10/07)

Darren said:


> You have gone back to middle ages, where they realised that chilling was essential to make good beer



I happen to know that one of the place getters in the recent Anawbs was a no-chill beer.


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## NickB (22/10/07)

Well, back on topic, I'm at 100% (touch wood) with no infections in over 20 NC batches. Certainly not claiming that there aren't issues, but for me, it's cheap, effective, and most importantly, quick. As long as everything is clean, I can so no issues as far as safety etc when using the appropriate (ie: food grade) containers...

All person opinon of course, but I am, along with many others, happy with this method. And as Zizzle states, it has been used to make award winning beers! Here's hoping many more are brewed in the future using NC!

Cheers


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## warrenlw63 (22/10/07)

Screwtop said:


> So I believe another dimension should be added, who believes their brews should be circumcised, should we only circumcise no chill?



Perform the Bris Milah with a cube spanner perhaps? :lol: 

Warren -


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## SDJ (23/10/07)

This is just 2 cents worth.

"Treat a mans opinion like you would treat his dog, if you like it, tell him so but he shouldnt expect you to take it home."

"We often dont have a choice in what happens to us, we do have a choice on how we act, choose carefully, dont just react."

oops thats 4 cents worth  

Cheers Steve


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## geoffi (23/10/07)

Screwtop said:


> ...who believes their brews should be circumcised, should we only circumcise no chill?



I believe the correct brewing term for this is 'top-cropping'.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/10/07)

I just don't understand all you White No Chill Cubers. Can't you see where you're going wrong?

If only you got yourselves some Blue No Chill Cubes, all your problems would go away and people would respect you. h34r: :unsure: :huh:


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## SJW (24/10/07)

> I've had them hanging around as long as six weeks before pitching. The result? Some of the best beers I've ever brewed, IMHO. Not suggesting the wait had anything to do with the good outcome, but I don't think it caused any problems.


Not trying to start a war here, but I wonder if anyone has done a side by side, ie, chilled half and NC the other half. As I have made some great beers NC method, but maybe if I did not NC them they would of been exceptional beers? Who knows?

Steve


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## Cortez The Killer (24/10/07)

I think there were a couple of people who did the comparison early on in the no chiller thread - from memory they didn't note any significant difference

Cheers



SJW said:


> Not trying to start a war here, but I wonder if anyone has done a side by side, ie, chilled half and NC the other half. As I have made some great beers NC method, but maybe if I did not NC them they would of been exceptional beers? Who knows?
> 
> Steve


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## DaaB (28/10/07)

*fwiw*, here's the voice of considerable experience (and the author of several highly regarded books on homebrewing, including this one... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brew-Your-British-...e/dp/1852491388 ).



"Graham Wheeler" said:


> "iowalad" said:
> 
> 
> > I think Graham in his book Brew Your Own British Ale suggests that leaving the wort overnight to coolas an option. He points out that crash cooling gives better cold break.
> ...



(iirc the Hook Norton Brewery still use coolships to coole their wort to pitching temperature, an example of which is in a the picture I posted above, I presume they are no longer lead lined  ).


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## PostModern (28/10/07)

DaaB said:


> (iirc the Hook Norton Brewery still use coolships to coole their wort to pitching temperature, an example of which is in a the picture I posted above, I presume they are no longer lead lined  ).



Doubltessly they replaced the lead with botulism spores.


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

DaaB said:


> *fwiw*, here's the voice of considerable experience (and the author of several highly regarded books on homebrewing, including this one... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brew-Your-British-...e/dp/1852491388 ).
> I've done it many times; I don't think it really hurts the beer. I used to put the hot wort into a clean and disinfected brewing bucket, fit the lid and either cover the airlock hole with a bit of sticking plaster or fit an airlock. The airlock must be one that works in both directions though, because air is drawn in as the wort cools - some airlocks don't work backwards. I used to use those glass dual-bubbler things, but they don't seem to be available these days. There are some horrible-looking plastic things which should do the same job.
> 
> It is no different to what old-style commercial breweries used to do, with their coolships in the attic and external 'refrigerators'. Until the last few years, Excise regulations meant that the cooled wort could be hanging around in an open fermentor for twelve hours waiting for the Excise man to turn up before the yeast could be pitched.
> ...



Must be an old book when i went around the Hook Norton Brewery two years ago they had a nice new Heat exchanger and the coolship no longer used was copper .

Pumpy


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## Darren (28/10/07)

PostModern said:


> Doubltessly they replaced the lead with botulism spores.




Hey PostModerator,

Perhaps the lead killed any spores  

Neither lead, heated plastic, or unintentional microbes are desirable in beer :angry: 

cheers

Darren


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> Must be an old book when i went around the Hook Norton Brewery two years ago they had a nice new Heat exchanger and the coolship no longer used was copper .
> 
> Pumpy




Hey Pumpy,

You mean these guys did it twice? Made a steamship out of copper then went the ultra-efficient counterflow heat-exchanger!!  


If it is only water efficiency we are after then the only solution is to brew bigger batches  

cheers

Darren


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

Darren said:


> Hey Pumpy,
> 
> You mean these guys did it twice? Made a steamship out of copper then went the ultra-efficient counterflow heat-exchanger!!
> If it is only water efficiency we are after then the only solution is to brew bigger batches
> ...




Darren ,When It comes to preaching " No Chill" you will always remain unconverted .

the only analogy I can draw from this Darren (in the nicest possisble way)

is that you are a "Water Wasting Wort Chilling Heathen" 

Pumpy


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## DaaB (28/10/07)

> Must be an old book when i went around the Hook Norton Brewery two years ago they had a nice new Heat exchanger and the coolship no longer used was copper .



Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mentioned the Hook Norton coolships as an aside, they aren't referenced in BYORA (not that i'm aware of anyway). The coolships were shown on the Hook Norton website up until fairly recently, it's a shame they have gone but it goes to show that airborne contamination isn't always such a huge issue, particularly if you are pitching loads of active yeast. I often read accounts by US homebrewers who are happy to only pitch they yeast that comes in the smack pack or vial and suggesting that they are happy to wait 72 hrs before worrying abut re-pitching where as I tend to start to consider my options at around 6hrs. I wonder if these people are the same people who insist that wort must be chilled? Admittedly warm wort is more susceptible to bacterial infection but coolships were used by commercial breweries up until fairly recently and there are people out there who regularly use the no chill method as the norm. Some of them might not recognise an infection if it came up and bit them in the nuts but when you have people with considerable experience such as Graham Wheeler happy to allow the wort to cool naturally it certainly adds a lot of weight to the argument that the no chill method whether it be in the boiler or fermenter isn't all bad.
Personally, as I mention in the quote by SJW, I like to chill the wort so I can get the yeast pitched and everything done and dusted as soon as possible, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it if I had to leave it over night before pitching though.


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

DaaB said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mentioned the Hook Norton coolships as an aside, they aren't referenced in BYORA (not that i'm aware of anyway). The coolships were shown on the Hook Norton website up until fairly recently, it's a shame they have gone but it goes to show that airborne contamination isn't always such a huge issue, particularly if you are pitching loads of active yeast. I often read accounts by US homebrewers who are happy to only pitch they yeast that comes in the smack pack or vial and suggesting that they are happy to wait 72 hrs before worrying abut re-pitching where as I tend to start to consider my options at around 6hrs. I wonder if these people are the same people who insist that wort must be chilled? Admittedly warm wort is more susceptible to bacterial infection but coolships were used by commercial breweries up until fairly recently and there are people out there who regularly use the no chill method as the norm. Some of them might not recognise an infection if it can and bit them in the nuts but when you have people with considerable experience such as Graham Wheeler happy to allow the wort to cool naturally it certainly adds a lot of weight to the argument that the no chill method whether it be in the boiler or fermenter isn't all bad.
> Personally, as I mention in the quote by SJW, I like to chill the wort so I can get the yeast pitched and everything done and dusted as soon as possible, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it if I had to leave it over night before pitching though.



Point Taken Daab

Pumpy


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (28/10/07)

Hello Daab, long way from home.


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## domonsura (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> Darren ,When It comes to preaching " No Chill" you will always remain unconverted .
> 
> the only analogy I can draw from this Darren (in the nicest possisble way)
> 
> ...



I've seen the water drums at Darren's myself. He ain't wasting nothing buddy.....


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## Tony (28/10/07)

I recon No chilling is fine....... im not foing to read all of the argument or comment on any of it.

I made a beer and put it in a cube. It sat in the cube for 2 months before firmenting.

It was a 7% English Old Ale

Its been in the bottle for somewhere between 1.5 and 2 years and is fantastic.

No botulism, satanisn or nazism spores to be seen.

cheers


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

domonsura said:


> I've seen the water drums at Darren's myself. He ain't wasting nothing buddy.....



Ok domonsura just make it 'Time waster ' 

These Anti No Chill posts are being proliferated for some reasons unkown to me other than being anti something .

It is a proven method used commercially to great success in Fresh wort kits 

Pumpy


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## DaaB (28/10/07)

Vlad the Pale Aler said:


> Hello Daab, long way from home.




Hi Vlad, thought i'd pop out and stretch my legs a bit


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> Darren ,When It comes to preaching " No Chill" you will always remain unconverted .
> 
> the only analogy I can draw from this Darren (in the nicest possisble way)
> 
> ...




Hey Pumpy,

Lets see your water bill mate  

Happy to compare mine as a no-chiller (Yes counterflow).

If you are not on mains water an estimate of usage will do!!

cheers

Darren

PS: Anyone else want to compare water bills if No-chill is such a winner??


EDIT: Ooops, who just flushed that toilet?


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (28/10/07)

Darren said:


> Hey Pumpy,
> 
> Lets see your water bill mate
> 
> ...


 

Well Dazza me old mate, I was contemplating kicking off a new thread about personal water consumption as determined by your last water bill, reason being, a footnote on my bill said I was an above average user.
May do it tomorow when I'm sober.


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> Point Taken Daab
> 
> Pumpy




Daab, Pumpy,

Good points but we must keep it in perspective though. Coolships were used prior to the availability of pressurised mains water :huh: . 

Since that time 99.9% of breweries have changed to counterflow cooling. Those that didn't have not survived  

The common theme?? Cooling. 

Rapid cooling, dates back to the early 1800's when they realised you were less likely to get sick with a chilled wort but also produced a more palatable beer everytime that everyone enjoyed.

Why worry about 100 or so litres of water to chill your average batch of beer (4 hours)? A single toilet flush uses at least 7 litres of water. 

Pumpy, maybe that is how lowly you rate your beer??

cheers


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## Tony (28/10/07)

Just looked at the results of the NSW state champs and the said No chill Old Ale won me Grand Champion beer B) 

I took these pics when i poured a glass a month or so ago to test its head retention properties.

20 min later and the main head had colapsed into a cats bum looking pooper hole that was quite amusing. Its was solid enough to lift out and sit on the sink. 

looks like No chill is Ok then.

I have just set up a second 50 liuter kettle. When i brew 50 liters of "pour dowm your throat" beer for the keg im going to make something experimental or out there in an esky and boil them both at the same time 

Cant afford $120 for another copper coil so i will make 25 liter batches and no chill em.

cheers


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (28/10/07)

Darren said:


> Daab, Pumpy,
> 
> Good points but we must keep it in perspective though. Coolships were used prior to the availability of pressurised mains water :huh: .
> 
> ...





.....do'nt the commercial boys use big scary plate chillers?


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## big d (28/10/07)

You sure there not mutated botulism spores growing in the middle of your beer Tony.   

Cheers
Big D


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

Darren said:


> Hey Pumpy,
> 
> Lets see your water bill mate
> 
> ...




Darren , There is no stopping you on your Crusade of the Templars , thrashing with your sword to eliminate the Elucidated bretheren of the No Chillers 

Pumpy


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

big d said:


> You sure there not mutated botulism spores growing in the middle of your beer Tony.
> 
> Cheers
> Big D



the Creature from the Brown Lagoon


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## Ross (28/10/07)

Tony said:


> Just looked at the results of the NSW state champs and the said No chill Old Ale won me Grand Champion beer B)



Good work Tony, :super: 

have you posted the recipe anywhere?

cheers Ross


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Tony said:


> Just looked at the results of the NSW state champs and the said No chill Old Ale won me Grand Champion beer B)
> 
> I took these pics when i poured a glass a month or so ago to test its head retention properties.
> 
> ...




Hey Tony,

Well done, great to see someone making an award winning no-chill.

You must keep in mind I never said it couldn't be done, but simply that with a failure to supply sufficient new containers you cant keep it doing it.

Heat resisient bacteria will eventually dominate your re-used fermenters and everything will have a belgian flavour. 

Pediococcus species build-up in the mashtun does cause tastable infection although it originated prior to boil, dispelling the myth that "turning" your cube will kill all.

Keep using the same old cube to no-chill and see what happens  

cheers

Darren


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## Tony (28/10/07)

nope........ do you wnat it?

It tastes like shit for the first 12 months but gets better.

Will be good to see how it goes when i enter it next year  

I will stick it in the recipe database when i get a chance.

It had a heap of caramalt in it which made it yukky at first but i was after caramel when it matured....... looks like caramalt is for more than aussie swill 

brewed it with 1338 european ale ( i think thats the number)

cheers


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> Darren , There is no stopping you on your Crusade of the Templars , thrashing with your sword to eliminate the Elucidated bretheren of the No Chillers
> 
> Pumpy




Yeah yeah Pumpy,

Just post your water consumption when you get it 

cheers

Darren


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## big d (28/10/07)

Well done Tony.Hope you do post the recipe.
Unfortunately i think this thread and the other no chill thread are coming to a very abrupt ending soon.

Cheers
Big D


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Tony said:


> nope........ do you wnat it?
> 
> It tastes like shit for the first 12 months but gets better.
> 
> ...



What was the style Tony? IBU.?

Looks quite dark too

cheers

Darren


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## Tony (28/10/07)

English Old ale.

Cant remember the specs

Will dig them up and post them somewhere else more apropriate.


cheers


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## Darren (28/10/07)

Cool Tony,

This was a disaster thread which yours was obviously not.

Please make sure you post your recipe for old ale in this thread too!

cheers

Darren


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## Screwtop (29/10/07)

Tony said:


> Just looked at the results of the NSW state champs and the said No chill Old Ale won me Grand Champion beer B)
> 
> I took these pics when i poured a glass a month or so ago to test its head retention properties.
> 
> ...



Hey Tony congrats on the win. And a NC Botubeer to boot. The beer in the pic looks like it's a boy, do you think it would have boy germs Darren :lol:


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## Kai (29/10/07)

Darren said:


> Cool Tony,
> 
> This was a disaster thread which yours was obviously not.
> 
> ...



Remember the method is sometimes as important as the recipe, daz.


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## Screwtop (29/10/07)

Darren, it's come to me in a flash.​ The answer to every no chillers dreams. I'll make a cube out of silver, pop a little silver cathode inside and connect it up to a car battery. The Silver ions interrupt DNA production preventing reproduction and accelerating the death phase of bacteria and viruses, so we could no chill our wort safely, without fear of any infections from Darren Bugs. Shit load of gas and lead waste but safe beer and no water wastage. 

Eureka, I'll make a fortune, how about it Craftbrewer, MashMaster etc, would you stock my silver cubes, silver's cheap at present, maybe I could get them made in China, producing a shit load more waste. But they may retail for less than AU$1,000.00 Wadda ya think, am I onto something????

Copper ions work in a similar way destroying the algae and bacteria so maybe they were onto something using copper lined coolships. The use of copper may upset Darren and other copper nazis so will stick with the more expensive alternative. They'll sell - look how expensive stainless steel is and it can be found in abundance in every brewers kit.

We creative types suffer due to our gift, and wake in the early hours with ideas such as this whirling around in ones head. 4.30am so what, I'll sleep later. I'm so excited at the thought of this inovative concept that I just have post my idea and tell Darren.


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## Darren (29/10/07)

Screwtop,

You need some more sleep mate.

cheers

Darren


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## SJW (29/10/07)

> The answer to every no chillers dreams. I'll make a cube out of silver, pop a little silver cathode inside and connect it up to a car battery. The Silver ions interrupt DNA production preventing reproduction and accelerating the death phase of bacteria and viruses, so we could no chill our wort safely, without fear of any infections from Darren Bugs. Shit load of gas and lead waste but safe beer and no water wastage.
> 
> Eureka, I'll make a fortune, how about it Craftbrewer, MashMaster etc, would you stock my silver cubes, silver's cheap at present, maybe I could get them made in China, producing a shit load more waste. But they may retail for less than AU$1,000.00 Wadda ya think, am I onto something????
> 
> ...



Bulk buy time fellas :lol: 

As for the water bill thing. Get real. Water is cheap, very cheap. It's more about being responsible for what water we do have. 
Also I bet most people, like me, dont do it to save water but to save time or for other reasons.
I would be happy enough to see an end to these NO CHILLER threads, even though I started this one. I am sure every aspect has been covered and more importantly I am starting to agree with Darren on a few points.  

Steve


Steve


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## crozdog (29/10/07)

First up let me say this isn't a disaster post, quite the opposite in fact.  

Back in May, the ISB & I made 150l of Belgian Golden Strong Ale on my big rig (pictures in the gallery), the output was all nochilled. Check out this pic for evidence - including a cube with a tap - lol. I fermented my cube in July (OMG nearly 3 months in the cube!!!  ). 

Anyway, this "NC Botubeer" obtained a 1st place in the weekends 2007 NSW comp for the Belgian French & Sour Beer Category beating 21 other entries (it was the largest class I might add).

FWIW, In the interest of fairness I entered this brew under both Stuarts & my names (on behalf of ISB) as he developed the recipe, we both made the wort (with the help of the ISBers & I fermented my cube.

No chill has proved yet again that it can produce award winning beers - if you are prepared to accept some risk & be dilligent about sanitation. B) 

Now the runs are on the table, watch the naysayers join the winning team! h34r:


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## Lukes (29/10/07)

Seems the *no chill winners* are in the cube for some time too.


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## Zizzle (29/10/07)

Screwtop said:


> Hey Tony congrats on the win. And a NC Botubeer to boot.





crozdog said:


> Anyway, this "NC Botubeer" obtained a 1st place in the weekends 2007 NSW comp...



A new term has been coined. I practice the Botubeer method too.
Why inject into into your face when you can inject in straigh into your throat? Botox for the masses!


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## PostModern (29/10/07)

Fixed the thread title.


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## Tony (29/10/07)

PostModern said:


> Fixed the thread title.



:lol: thought it changed


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## crozdog (29/10/07)

PostModern said:


> Fixed the thread title.


that's more appropriate


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## fixa (29/10/07)

I thought it was a whole new thread :wacko: :blink:


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## SJW (30/10/07)

> Fixed the thread title.


Thanks PM. Its hard to pre-determine how any NC topic could turn out.
I still think that it (nc) is just a soft target for blokes who have not changed and never will. I did a scan over the 2 NC threads and concluded that a lot of the arguments put forward could well be asked about traditional CHILLED brewing practices.
I would like to read about more Disasters and Successes now, as the new thread title suggests.

Steve


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