# Perpetual cider?



## Bribie G (31/3/13)

I'm currently drinking my second keg of Aldi cider, made on Black Rock cider yeast from the original kit. I don't like a dry cider so I back sweetened the keg with 2L of juice and it came out about the same sweetness as Bulmers or Mercury Draught. However after a week, even though the keg is at 3 degrees it's starting to get very dry indeed and exceptionally fizzy when I pour.

I have a theory that cider was brewed in the autumn by the peasants because that's when the apples ripen, so perhaps cider yeast works well down to low temperatures. As a Pom I can confirm that Autumn and low temperatures go very well in the same sentence.

I'm going to take out the keg, release the pressure and pour another 2L in.

Being a 3 keg unit I wonder if I could just keep doing that and get endless cidery nectar out of the taps :chug:

Obviously like power stations, brickworks etc there would have to be regular down time to clear out the system, renew the yeast stocks and service the pipes and taps but the concept is teasing me.


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## brettprevans (31/3/13)

I dont know what ur going on about in the 2nd part of ur post but im half cut. But yeah I find that just about all yeasts feremt slowly over time in the cold. Some more than others. 

Also if the amount of yeast to fermentable is high then it ferments easier. Obviously not the case here. More so when u botyle the last of a fermenter and have lots of yeast in the bottle

What yeast did u use.


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## Airgead (31/3/13)

Yep. Cider was made at harvest season and traditionally fermented slowly over the winter and was ready to drink in the spring. I ferment my ciders round 14C. Not sure if the yeasts will ferment at fridge temps.

If the yeast will work at fridge temp (maybe use a lager yeast),you could probably keep a perpetual cider going as long as your consumption was slow enough to let each new juice addition ferment. Otherwise it will get weaker and weaker as you add juice faster than it can ferment.

Cheers
Dave


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## Greg.L (31/3/13)

There aren't really any commercial cider yeasts. I know there are some yeasts sold as cider yeasts but they aren't really used in industry, or proven by research. For sweetening keg cider you want a wine yeast that flocculates well and prefers high temperatures, but in small quantities your choices are limited, they usually only come in 250g packs. If you invest the extra money you could get a wine yeast that works very well for that situation, but it probably isn't worth it.


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## brettprevans (31/3/13)

When I used a wild brettc in a cider it just kept fermenting no matter how cold it was. So was sooo bone dry and sour by the I finished a 50L keg of it. Damn nice though during summer

Edit. Interesting info greg. I would have thought that they would isolated a qild apple or pear yeast a a commercial cider yeast by now. Wonder why not?


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## Greg.L (31/3/13)

citymorgue2 said:


> When I used a wild brettc in a cider it just kept fermenting no matter how cold it was. So was sooo bone dry and sour by the I finished a 50L keg of it. Damn nice though during summer
> 
> Edit. Interesting info greg. I would have thought that they would isolated a qild apple or pear yeast a a commercial cider yeast by now. Wonder why not?


There just isn't the demand for a specific cider yeast. French companies mainly use wild ferment, other industrial cider operations aren't that bothered about the yeast, they just use wine yeast. There aren't enough small cidermakers to justify the investment needed to develop a specific cider yeast. The global wine industry dwarfs the cider industry.
Your brett ferment was probably dominated by wild yeast, brett cultures are developed for secondary ferment in beer, not primary ferment in cider. Wild yeasts are more cold tolerant.


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## bradsbrew (31/3/13)

Bribie, you are onto something here. I have been using the awri351 yeast for my ciders and back sweeten with the same amount of juice as you. My ciders continue to ferment in the keg at 3-4 degree and the flavour from the extra juice dissapears. I have added extra juice after 2 weeks and it works well for flavour and drinkability that said i have not taken any gravity readings etc to see where the cider is at. I wonder how many times you could add?

Cheers


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## mikec (31/3/13)

Ok a theory with no scientific basis.
What if the extra juice you are adding, the non-fermented/sweet juice, is sinking to the bottom of the keg. 
You drink that bit first, then you get to the dry cider again. The perception is that the new juice has fermented out.


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## Airgead (31/3/13)

mikec said:


> Ok a theory with no scientific basis.
> What if the extra juice you are adding, the non-fermented/sweet juice, is sinking to the bottom of the keg.
> You drink that bit first, then you get to the dry cider again. The perception is that the new juice has fermented out.


Unlikely. Diffusion will still happen even at fridge temps. Might take a while but in an hour or so it will all be homogenous.

Unless your fridge runs at absolute zero. In that case it will stay stratified. But it will also be a bose-einstein condensate which might be weird to drink. The drink in your glass and the drink in the keg would share a single quantum state. It would be like drinking the whole keg at once while simultaneously drinking none of the keg. It may just be the bottle of wine I just drank talking but that's blowing my mind....


Cheers
Dave


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## bum (31/3/13)

Airgead said:


> It would be like drinking the whole keg at once while simultaneously drinking none of the keg.


Infinite cider or no cider?

Wait. We can drink the cider as long as no one observes us drinking the cider. You know, just like at work.


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## Airgead (31/3/13)

bum said:


> Infinite cider or no cider?
> 
> Wait. We can drink the cider as long as no one observes us drinking the cider. You know, just like at work.


Yeah.. but we would also have to drink the cider without observing ourselves drinking the cider. Which kind of defeats the purpose.


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## Bribie G (31/3/13)

With 3 kegs in the fridge maybe I could get a continuous cider fermentation going, with a slow peristaltic pump adding juice to keg 1, the contents of which flow into keg 2, then into keg 3 which is the serving keg.

However I'd probably need to program an Arduino to control the process, which would make me a nerd.


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## Airgead (31/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> With 3 kegs in the fridge maybe I could get a continuous cider fermentation going, with a slow peristaltic pump adding juice to keg 1, the contents of which flow into keg 2, then into keg 3 which is the serving keg.
> 
> However I'd probably need to program an Arduino to control the process, which would make me a nerd.


If you could pull that off it would make you awesome. And a nerd. But still awesome.


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## of mice and gods (11/8/13)

Did anyone get very far with the trial of just topping up the cider keg with a couple more litres every so often?

I've just kegged my first aldi apple & black currant cider, I was thinking about giving this a go as we don't drink that much cider it should hopefully have time to ferment while providing a bit of back sweetening in between.

Al


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## of mice and gods (18/9/13)

Just a follow up to let you guys know, by cider has had 3 x 2L top ups of aldi apple & black currant juice and is still going nicely.

However, I'm about 1/3-1/2 full at this stage so soon to do a full top up and let the keg sit out of the fridge for a week or so to catch up the big addition.

Anyway, still tastes good.. haven't managed to infect it yet 

Al


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## pk.sax (30/9/13)

Just put some yeast in a bottle (it's an over pitch even at 1/3 teaspoon) and bung it in the fridge after 3-4 days. Geez. You gotta re-invent every wheel. From 3-4 days to ~10-12 days when it goes dry, you can taste nigh every little stage of the 'accelerated' cider ferment.


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## squirt in the turns (30/9/13)

Is there any significant difference in the flavour if you back sweeten with juice as opposed to something unfermentable like stevia, or even lactose ( :icon_vomit: )?


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## Airgead (30/9/13)

Yes.. juice tastes like juice. Stevia tastes sweet and lactose tastes like... well.. lactose (actually its almost flavourless in a brew).

You can also sweeten with honey, sugar, brown sugar, maple syrup...

A world of flavours at your doorstep.

Cheers
Dave


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## of mice and gods (1/10/13)

I back sweeten with juice because it results in more cider...


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## of mice and gods (1/10/13)

Not really re-inventing the wheel, and I don't have to wait 3-4 days or use additional yeast..

- Open fridge
- Open keg
- Pour in bottle of juice
- Close keg
- Keep drinking 

- repeat process when can be bothered or required


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