# Wyeast Shelf Life



## davedoran (28/2/14)

Hey,

Question regarding shelf life of wyeast stains. How long should they last if kept in the fridge.
I have a pack of Bav Wh Blend 3056 is the fridge with a manufacture date of 20 Aug 13. Has never left the fridge and is exactly the same as when I got it at the shop.


----------



## schoey (28/2/14)

If it has been treated well and kept in the fridge it should be OK. At 7-8 months old though the viability will be pretty low which means you'll need a starter, preferably with a couple of steps.


----------



## sp0rk (28/2/14)

I've got a bunch of smack packs that are over a year old that I got for free, as long as I do a starter and step it up slowly, they always fire up just fine


----------



## Spiesy (28/2/14)

dave doran said:


> Hey,
> 
> Question regarding shelf life of wyeast stains. How long should they last if kept in the fridge.
> I have a pack of Bav Wh Blend 3056 is the fridge with a manufacture date of 20 Aug 13. Has never left the fridge and is exactly the same as when I got it at the shop.


According to Mr. Malty you have 10% viability in that yeast. 

I.e. 90% is dead.
I.e. you have a yeast population of roughly 10 billion.

Get your steps on.


----------



## davedoran (28/2/14)

Thanks,

Start with 400ml of wort and build her up from there?


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (28/2/14)

This is how I do it. 

Smack the pack. Leave. Be patient it may take up to a week(or more) to expand. 
Shake it every time you look at it.

This one took 8 days.




Yes it says June 2012. 
It works. I got the idea from a very old thread on here. I think back in the day the(Wyeast) yeast packs where not only hard to find but sometimes quite old. 



JUST DON'T OPEN TILL IT EXPANDS. 
I opened one not knowing and it died on the stirplate. 
This is that pils.


----------



## Weizguy (28/2/14)

+1.

Be patient, wait until pack expands and culture/ step up the culture size. 400 ml should be OK for your first step. 200-300 ml might be better, and then up by 10X (or less if that's what you need) from there.

Congrats with your yeast choice. I find W3056 to give you plenty of the weizen character you need for the style. I may have even won my first Best Of Show with it. (It was a small comp, IIRC).


----------



## davedoran (28/2/14)

Thanks for the help guys.
Another soul saved by AHB.


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

Hmmm just saw this thread and am now a little stressed. I had a similar situation, I had a pack of ringwood ale yeast with a production date of 27 Aug 13 in my fridge for a Dr smurtos ttl recipe. I smacked it yesterday and it didn't swell in 5 hours so I pitched it into a 1 litre starter. It's been 17 hours and the glad wrap I have on top swells when shaken but no visible krausen as yet. Have I screwed up bad? 

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

Mate get another ready. 
If it's swelling (the glad rap) you may be alrite but I'm not 100% convinced. 
It's definitely under pitched tho.
A addition of some active yeast (or dry)is what I would do.


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

You mean to the starter?

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

Sorry.mate I read it as pitched into your fermenter.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

As a starter addition it should kick and start up. It may take awhile longer than normal tho.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

Is your starter on a stir plate?


----------



## Ross (2/3/14)

Mickcr250 said:


> Hmmm just saw this thread and am now a little stressed. I had a similar situation, I had a pack of ringwood ale yeast with a production date of 27 Aug 13 in my fridge for a Dr smurtos ttl recipe. I smacked it yesterday and it didn't swell in 5 hours so I pitched it into a 1 litre starter. It's been 17 hours and the glad wrap I have on top swells when shaken but no visible krausen as yet. Have I screwed up bad?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


no need for krausen - its all good


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

Being from aug13 it will work. The ringwood in my picture above was nov12 it took awhile but it kicked off. 
As for krausen I never get one on my stirplate. 
Ross has the rite of it.


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

No not on a stir plate but I'm giving it a good swirl every half hour or so now and have bumped the fridge up to 24 now so should give it a better chance. It seems to be holding the glad wrap inflated, not just when swirling now so I think its gunna take. Thanks for the help guys 

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Ross (2/3/14)

its going already - its fine - stop stressing


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

Proly just let the smakpack swell next time mate. I find that gives me a lot more confidence.


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

do you think i will need to do another step? batch size is 21L at 1.045 gravity its very hard to guage how much yeast i have it seems everyone has a different idea of yeast viability, i just checked the brewers friend starter calculator and it calculates 0% viability from 4 months old! and then there are people using 12 month old yeast


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

just checked beersmith and they say it is 96% viable wtf who to believe!


----------



## elcarter (2/3/14)

II bet it's not 0% or 96% 

Your glad wrap on your stater's proven it's not dead, 96% is pretty hard to get from any calculator unless you smacked it the moment it landed in Aus.

I'm sure someone with more experience with out of date starters can help you out. All I can say is that from my experience yeast are resilient little buggers.


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

MrMalty claims 10% viability and says i need to pitch 3 packs into 3.3l of starter wort seems a bit excessive


----------



## Camo1234 (2/3/14)

Is your starter in a flask or do you have room for another 0.5 ltr? If so, feed it some more wort and grow some more. If you're still in doubt and not in a rush let the yeast settle and put it into another starter.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/3/14)

Mickcr250 said:


> MrMalty claims 10% viability and says i need to pitch 3 packs into 3.3l of starter wort seems a bit excessive


Lol.....but then again apparently MR Malty is now the "Go to" guide......

Better go stick some pubes on my face and call myself a brewer...


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

Just split the starter into two jars and added 500ml to each. Yeast seemed pretty active so I recon this should get me enough.

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Cannibal Smurf (2/3/14)

I found 2 Wyeast packs that I had forgotten about, one from Oct 2010 and the other from Nov 2010. h34r:

Removed from fridge on Wednesday, smacked on Thursday, pitched into 2 x 20L fermenters on Saturday, both @ 1.048 and they are both rocketing along :beerbang:

Was a bit of a gamble running them without a starter, but stressed yeast gives good esters... mmmmm banana :icon_drool2:


----------



## Mickcr250 (2/3/14)

Wow well that makes me feel better

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Mickcr250 (3/3/14)

Looks like a fair bit of yeast to me, and for reference those are both 2 litre jars. Think I Will pitch it tonight

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Mickcr250 (3/3/14)

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Florian (3/3/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> Proly just let the smakpack swell next time mate. I find that gives me a lot more confidence.


I don't see the point. If you know that the smack pack is old and Mr. Malty or whoever says that only 10% of the yeast is viable, then why risk killing those last 10% by letting it sit outside the fridge for a week?

Pitch it into an appropriately sized starter straight away and forget about smacking the pack.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

My logic is this.
The smack pack is a sterile environment this gives the yeast the best opportunity to grow unhindered from infection.
As well when they swell it shows activity. If it doesn't swell then I don't use it.this was taken 5 Min ago both fairly old packs 

I deal with around 35 kgs of yeast a week as a baker so I understand the life cycle of yeast.
Smacking and swelling before adding to a starter ensures activity. The only other way is to take a gravity reading. Another opportunity for infection and a waste of starter(I do use my refractomter if not 100%)

Just a disclaimer it's not my idea to ensure activity bf adding to a starter I read it on here. But it does make sense to me.
What others do is up to them.


Just hopped on the computer so I could link this 
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54900-basics-of-making-and-using-a-yeast-starter/

when I find the smack pack link i will post that 
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/6073-wyeast-smack-pak/
Im fairly shore one of the guys in that link waited four days for the pack to swell.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

Mickcr250 said:


> uploadfromtaptalk1393833068022.jpg
> 
> Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


They both look nice and healthy. Dont forget to decant the crap of the top :beer:


----------



## Florian (3/3/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> My logic is this.
> The smack pack is a sterile environment this gives the yeast the best opportunity to grow unhindered from infection.
> As well when they swell it shows activity. If it doesn't swell then I don't use it.this was taken 5 Min ago both fairly old packs
> 
> ...


Doesn't change the fact that you're leaving (in your example earlier in the thread) the yeast for 8 days outside of the fridge, so in less than ideal conditions.

If you only had 10% viable yeast left to begin with because your pack was a year or so old, chances are that it's now reduced to 3% or less. Why? Just to see that there is still something viable in that pack?

Why not try to get the most out of your 10% by adding it to a starter straight away, that way you give 10 billion cells a chance to multiply rather than putting all your money on your last not so healthy anymore 3 billion cells or less.

No need to take gravity readings either, with a bit of practice you can tell if your starter has fermented out or not just by looking at the colour.


----------



## Spiesy (3/3/14)

Florian said:


> Doesn't change the fact that you're leaving (in your example earlier in the thread) the yeast for 8 days outside of the fridge, so in less than ideal conditions.


Boom.

This has always bugged me also… you'd think the last thing almost dead yeast needs is to sit outside in an un-refridgerated environment for days on end.


----------



## hoppinmad (3/3/14)

I smacked this pack of Belgian Saison 3724 about one month ago (the pack being the ripe old age of 19 months). It had fully swollen in about 3 days. I then made a 500ml starter, stepping up to 1.5L then 2L. The yeast was pitched into 20 litres of wort at 1.060 which was down to 1.005 in two weeks. Now as many people know, 3724 is a temperamental bastard at the best of times, so I think if you step up your starter a couple of times you are going to have a very fresh pitch of young healthy yeast to ferment out your beer nicely. I wouldn't ever hesitate to buy old packs of wyeast on sale, as with a little tenderness they will still get the job done.


----------



## Camo6 (3/3/14)

But what if you're proving your packs in a temperature controlled environment? I've always smacked my packs and left them in the fermenting fridge at ale temps.

Surely keeping the yeast in a known sterile environment and 'activating' its metabolism with the provided nutrients would be better than ditching it straight into a starter and expecting it to hit the ground running?

Whether you're waiting for the pack to swell or throwing it straight into a starter they're both going to need to be within their optimum temperature range to do their job. I would have thought the most effective time to utilise the nutrient pouch was when yeast cell numbers were low and needed all the help they could get.

And while they're waking up you at least get an idea as to whether to waste DME or wort on it (plus the cleaning, boiling and cooling) or buy some fresh yeast. At least that's my way of thinking on the matter.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

You would still need xyz amount of days to get a healty amount of yeast .
The smack pack has a precise amount of nutriant made for the yeast in the pack , this is basicly a mini starter.
The only differance is im keeping my yeast in a  sterile environment before placing in a larger starter.

BOOM, indeed 

"If you only had 10% viable yeast left to begin with because your pack was a year or so old, chances are that it's now reduced to 3% or less. Why? Just to see that there is still something viable in that pack?"
Dont beleve all you read in Mr malty I've read on here its just a guide. 
Not shor where you got 3% or less from.
Bottom line a swelled pack shows activity. Thats when i pitch into a starter.
Like i said bf its what i do and it works , the rest is up to others to decide


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

HoppinMad said:


> I smacked a pack of Belgian Saison 3724 about one month ago (the pack being at a ripe old age of 19 months). It had fully swollen in about 3 days. I then made a 500ml starter, stepping up to 1.5L then 2L. The yeast was pitched into 20 litres of wort at 1.060 which was down to 1.005 in two weeks. Now as many people know, 3724 is a temperamental bastard at the best of times, so I think if you step up your starter a couple of times you are going to have a very fresh pitch of young healthy yeast to ferment out your beer nicely. I wouldn't ever hesitate to buy old packs of wyeast on sale, as with a little tenderness they will still get the job done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1



Camo6 said:


> But what if you're proving your packs in a temperature controlled environment? I've always smacked my packs and left them in the fermenting fridge at ale temps.
> 
> Surely keeping the yeast in a known sterile environment and 'activating' its metabolism with the provided nutrients would be better than ditching it straight into a starter and expecting it to hit the ground running?
> 
> ...


+5 
Thing is i farm my yeast as well this one i got 5 vials and 3 starters






Works for me!


----------



## Camo6 (3/3/14)

You use it for cologne?


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

I do love the smell of healty yeast.
So YES sometimes, I did shake the shit out of a flask at room temp and it exploded all over me if that counts.
went strait thu the gladrap like a hot knife.


----------



## Mickcr250 (3/3/14)

Hmm let's just say I pitched the lot? Feeling a bit stupid now although the starter never got any warmer than 24c

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Florian (3/3/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> The smack pack has a precise amount of nutriant made for the yeast in the pack , this is basicly a mini starter.


No, it's not a mini starter, at least not in the sense of multiplying yeast as it is commonly used on here. All the nutrient pouch does is initiating the yeast’s metabolism, and wyeast state explicitly that activating is beneficial, but not necessary. They also say to let the package swell for 3 hours or more, and if you would send them an email and ask if you should let the package swell for 8 days I'm pretty sure they would recommend not to do this.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=16

As for Mr. Malty, I've only been on that site once about three years ago, I just used it as an example. There are other yeast viability calculators on the net, and of course all of them are just a guide, common sense should tell you that. I don't use them and have never used them.

The 3% figure you questioned I plucked out of nowhere, and I don't think it's too unrealistic either.


As you say, do whatever you want, and I have done exactly what you are doing now years ago (you will find evidence somewhere on here), but I now understand that it wasn't the best thing to do, but not the worst either.

Also, to get back to the title of this thread, the official guaranteed shelf life is 6 month. Obviously you can still use it after that in most cases, but Wyeast doesn't guarantee viability anymore. See link above.


----------



## Thefatdoghead (3/3/14)

Freshest is best. That's the way to think. Don't buy yeast to brew beer..., think of a recipe then get yeast last so its fresh. Took me a while but I've learnt.


----------



## Florian (3/3/14)

Camo6 said:


> Whether you're waiting for the pack to swell or throwing it straight into a starter they're both going to need to be within their optimum temperature range to do their job. I would have thought the most effective time to utilise the nutrient pouch was when yeast cell numbers were low and needed all the help they could get.


Yes, exactly! By all means smack the pack and let it sit for a few hours until it has reached the same temp as your starter. The cells that are still viable will use the nutrient to fire up their metabolism.

The reason a really old smack pack takes a week to swell is not because every cell needs about a week to wake up, and then after a week they're suddenly all starting to produce Co2, no, the cells that are still viable wake up straight away, pretty much the same as a pack that's only a week old.

The reason the pack takes so long to swell is simply because there aren't enough cells to produce enough Co2 within a couple of hours to let *the whole pack* swell. So those few cells that are left need to work a week to produce the same amount of Co2 that a 100% viable pack would produce in 2 or 3 hours. During that week though many of them will die, so you're better of adding them to a starter and let them multiply as long as they're still capable to do so.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

Mickcr250 said:


> Hmm let's just say I pitched the lot? Feeling a bit stupid now although the starter never got any warmer than 24c
> Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


Mate don't worry yours will be fine.

Yes fresh is best. I got 6-7 very old packs for next to nix. I did it for a few reasons not the least of which was to save some yeast that was going to be throne out. Give a few bucks to my local and test my systems. 


To Florian I get where your coming from mate. When I do a starter and place on the stirplate it's at room temperature (kitchen 18-22) but can see that having a lower temp could help (ale temp) but how to do that I'm not shore. 

I rinse the.yeast bf I store it to get rid of any flavor issues.

I'm not trying to say I'm correct about what I do.

But for the op I still feel it's better to put a active yeast packet in a starter then build off that. 
He's a big boy I'm certain he will work it out.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

Just a disclaimer. The op has been to my house and I've discussed the concept with him. As well he has my phone no if needed.


----------



## Florian (3/3/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> But for the op I still feel it's better to put a active yeast packet in a starter then build off that.


Here's the thing: The yeast packet is active a few hours after you have smacked it. Well, the cells that are still alive are active.
The others are dead and will never become active, so why wait any longer?


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/3/14)

Ok here go's. 

What's the recommended sg for a starter with a healthy packet of yeast. For say a high gravity 1080 beer. From what ive read it's 1030-1040 max so you don't shock the yeast and stress it. 
If you pitching a lesser amount of old (frail) yeast into a 1030sg starter don't you feel there is a risk of shock?
Is there more chance of infection with less active in your starter? That ones rhetorical Btw. 
Over all when starting out its a confidence issue when the packet expands YOU KNOW IT'S ACTIVE. 
The op asked the life if a packet. Simple answer is a loooong time if you treat the way I've explained. 

The premise that my yeast packets are sitting.in a hot room is incorrect. 
As soon as activity is seen I place it in a small starter or back in the fridge. 
It really is very simple.


----------



## Camo6 (3/3/14)

Florian said:


> Yes, exactly! By all means smack the pack and let it sit for a few hours until it has reached the same temp as your starter. The cells that are still viable will use the nutrient to fire up their metabolism.
> 
> The reason a really old smack pack takes a week to swell is not because every cell needs about a week to wake up, and then after a week they're suddenly all starting to produce Co2, no, the cells that are still viable wake up straight away, pretty much the same as a pack that's only a week old.
> 
> The reason the pack takes so long to swell is simply because there aren't enough cells to produce enough Co2 within a couple of hours to let *the whole pack* swell. So those few cells that are left need to work a week to produce the same amount of Co2 that a 100% viable pack would produce in 2 or 3 hours. During that week though many of them will die, so you're better of adding them to a starter and let them multiply as long as they're still capable to do so.


I must admit I've never had a pack of Wyeast take more than a day or two to swell and I think I'd be reluctant to use one that took much longer than that without a stepped starter. I've learnt enough lessons from being lazy in my yeast preparation to realise it's one of the most fundamental practices towards better beer.

I split my packs, when relatively fresh, into 3 vials and the remainder into a starter for the current brew. I almost always smack the pack as I find it helps dilute the contents for splitting. When using the remaining three vials they always get stepped at least three times and it's usually evident overnight whether it's kicking along or not.

I'm still learning this hobby and still put out beers I'm not happy with and I've found the biggest margin for error is with yeast handling. Nowadays I always make sure there's some dry yeast for backup. Problem is its a lot easier than stepping a starter and tends to be the easy fallback plan.

Sorry, straying a bit off topic.


----------



## Weizguy (4/3/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Lol.....but then again apparently MR Malty is now the "Go to" guide......
> 
> Better go stick some pubes on my face and call myself a brewer...


Jamil has pubes stuck on his face?


----------



## Weizguy (4/3/14)

There is an approx 45 minute interview with Owen from Wyeast, available on YouTube.

He advises that smacking is a good thing and why. Also that you can pitch or build the yeast once the pack has swelled to half an inch (about 13 mm).

Also provides info about building yeast, why it's good to use about 1.040 and ferment warm, as well as how they get their strains and a whole of yeast-related love.

Not a bad bloke either. Met him at ANHC 2, iirc. Ah, ANHC memories...


----------



## beermeupscotty (4/3/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> There is an approx 45 minute interview with Owen from Wyeast, available on YouTube.
> 
> He advises that smacking is a good thing and why. Also that you can pitch or build the yeast once the pack has swelled to half an inch (about 13 mm).
> 
> ...


(Assuming it's the same vid..) I've been watching this for the past 30 mins - it's a ripper! Loving the science he's dropping (and that he's not trying to push Wyeast product too hard). Seems like a great guy.

Here's the link for those interested - highly recommended! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEkwp_2Yezo


----------



## manticle (4/3/14)

I prefer this one for yeast nerdy hotness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vELwUsBmWQ


----------



## beermeupscotty (4/3/14)

manticle said:


> I prefer this one for yeast nerdy hotness
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vELwUsBmWQ


Will check ASAP. Cheers!


----------



## Spiesy (4/3/14)

manticle said:


> I prefer this one for yeast nerdy hotness
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vELwUsBmWQ


lol - was watching that last night… thinking the same thing!


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (4/3/14)

Wow nice one. 
I'm very passionate about yeast.
Almost as much as baking & brewing (almost).
Will watch with interest once the kiddies are fed.



Today's effort;


O.C.D. Does have its advantages.


----------



## Yob (4/3/14)

Is that with glycerine for freezing?


----------



## MartinOC (4/3/14)

manticle said:


> I prefer this one for yeast nerdy hotness


Wot!?? You wanna ask her to get her (lab) gear on & talk "clean" to you??!?!?!?!


----------



## Yob (4/3/14)

No martin, we want her to get her lab gear off and talk dirty!!


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (4/3/14)

Yob said:


> Is that with glycerine for freezing?


No mate I don't have a dedicated deep freeze. All my freezers are linked to a fridge (over under). I've read up on freezing with glycerine but didn't think I could freeze the yeastes fast enough and keep them frozen. 
I've placed freezing in the to hard basket (for now). 
As well I want to do slants (my wife's a pathologist by trade) but just can't commit to the riggers of it. 

The above picture is of farmed Yeast from packs over a year old. 
They are very freshly packed (5-10min) so no settling as yet.


----------



## philmud (21/4/14)

Just after a bit of reassurance - I smacked a packet of 1272 in October last year - most of it went into a DSGA starter, but I kept 30ml aside in a sample jar which had been in the fridge ever since. I intend to step this up for an IPA next weekend (OG 1.062).
The pack was dated 19/09 (and smacked on 15/10). I assume I'll get some activity out of the yeast, but don't want to pitch something so mutated that it'll **** my beer - should I just buy a new pack?


----------



## mckenry (21/4/14)

It won't be mutated. Can't be. It's never been used as I read it. It probably won't be ready by next weekend for an IPA. Too much growth/steps required from a 6 month old 30mL sample. I'd get a new pack, but there is nothing wrong stepping your left over sample up. It'll just take more time than you have.


----------



## philmud (21/4/14)

Cheers! Good to hear it'll be ok, but yeah, I'll grab a new one!


----------

