# Why do ALL of my can kits taste bad?



## megabyte

So this has me stumped.

I’ve been brewing for about 8 years. I started with Coopers kits and I could never get them to taste even remotely good. It’s a miracle that I persevered with brewing after so much disappointment but thankfully when I moved to extracts (and all grain soon after) my beers became tasty and I’ve been brewing quite happily ever since.

Recently I brewed a few all grain batches of a Coopers Pale Ale clone. I re-cultured the yeast from a bottle of the Coopers beer and while my attempts didn’t taste exactly like the original, they tasted every bit as good.

Next up i thought why not get back to my roots and try a Coopers Australian Pale Ale can of goo to see if it would taste closer to the real deal (after all, Coopers should know how to make a brew that tastes like their own beer right?). I used a fairly fresh Can (from my LHBS), Brew Enhancer 2, rehydrated the kit yeast, sanitised everything, fermented with temp control and the result was something I hadn’t tasted or smelled in many years - shitty homebrew. It’s thin and cidery, the bubbles are big, the head dissipates quickly and it has a pungent stink just like all the kit beers I made when I was starting out. The taste is bland and it has that signature “bad homebrew” aftertaste. I aged it a few weeks in the keg and it didn’t help much.

OK so my first thought was that the yeast is bad. I’ve heard warnings about using the yeast that comes with cans of goo and I know Coopers uses an Ale/Lager blend with their Australian Pale Ale kit that’s completely different to the yeast they use in their commercial example.

So next I started again with a fresh Coopers Pale Ale Can and BE2, but this time I re-cultured a healthy pitch of real coopers yeast, the stuff that I’ve been using in my all-grain batches. The result - equally shitty homebrew. It’s got a slightly different character, but the signature stink, bad aftertaste, poor head and artificial bitterness are all the same. It’s exactly the kind of beer that gives homebrew a bad reputation.

So my AG batches turned out great but the kits turned out almost undrinkable (I can’t even palm them off to my in-laws). I’ve ruled out the yeast, the fermentation temperature, and serving (I kegged and force carbed them all). I don’t see anything in my process that would make the kits taste bad. My only remaining conclusion is that these Coopers can kits are just rubbish.

So here’s what’s got me beat… The staff at both of my LHBSs think that canned kits are great. There’s an entire coopers forum filled with people who think these kits are the duck’s nuts (including the Aussie Pale Ale kit). Heck, I’m posting this in a sub-forum of AHB that’s dedicated to kits and extracts and filled with brewers with far more experience than I have. I *must* be doing something wrong.

I am humbled by my repeated failure to brew decent beer with these kits and I really respect the knowledge amongst my fellow brewers on AHB. Is there something else I should try or am I beating a dead horse expecting these kits to taste like commercial quality beer?


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## Ducatiboy stu

Dunno

Everytime i have done a Coopers Pale Ale kit it has been bang on


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## megabyte

Awesome, that gives me hope. May I ask some tips?

Do you use BE2?
Do you reculture the coopers yeast or use the satchel with the can?
What temp do you ferment at?
Does it to throw pear esters like the original?
Do you oxygenate?
How fresh are your cans? Is it okay if they are a couple of months old?


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## Ducatiboy stu

Havent done one for a while, but always used BE2, fermed at about 18*c..ish

The Pale Ale kit really is very good if done properly, very close to the original

Have used kit yeast and re cultered

I have tasted beers made from kits and they where fantastic. Better than some AG beers ( mine included ) at swap meets

Nothing wrong with kit beers, and in saying that, most issues are caused after the tin has been opened


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## fletcher

the only thing i can think it could be is the yeast culture giving poor performances. yes, culturing can be good, but you can never be sure that culture is going to be completely healthy. would you consider using a yeast such as us-05 or something similar to get the desired neutral profile? (considering you're fermenting at about 17-18c anyway). try that and see how they compare?


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## Ducatiboy stu

Start from scratch

Think of every step

Then sanitise, and sanitise again, and when you have finished sanitising and cleaning, sanitise

Change your sanitising chemicals

I dont know. If your using the same equipment and so on for AG's and kits then they should both be good

Maybe try a Pale Ale kit with all malt instead of BE2 and see what difference that makes


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## danestead

Did you use dechlorinated and chloromined water? Was the water you used sterile?


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## megabyte

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The Pale Ale kit really is very good if done properly, very close to the original
> ...
> I have tasted beers made from kits and they where fantastic. Better than some AG beers ( mine included ) at swap meets


These points are very reassuring. Thanks.



fletcher said:


> would you consider using a yeast such as us-05 or something similar to get the desired neutral profile?


I may give US05 a go if it comes to that. My reservation is that I really want to get the signature ester profile of the commercial beer. Given that it's only POR hops and an ordinary malt bill the esters are the main thing that makes Coopers Pale Ale interesting to me.
I also think I ruled out yeast being the problem already though since my recultured yeast worked awesome on my AG batches and also that the bad flavours were present with both kit yeast and my recultured yeast. I'll keep US05 in mind though.



Ducatiboy stu said:


> If your using the same equipment and so on for AG's and kits then they should both be good
> 
> Maybe try a Pale Ale kit with all malt instead of BE2 and see what difference that makes


Admittedly I used a brand new plastic fermenter for the Coopers kits so not all variables are the same, not that it should really matter. I usually ferment my AG batches in glass carboys but in order to pour in the can of goo it's much more convenient with a wide-mouth fermenter. I did fill it to the brim with starsan and sanitise the crap out of everything before use. Same Meticulous OCD I use for my AG brews.



danestead said:


> Did you use dechlorinated and chloromined water? Was the water you used sterile?


^^ this! I used tap water (Sydney Water/Illawarra). I've never noticed high levels of chlorine in my local water, but without a boil I wonder if this could be a contributing factor? I've heard that if you can't taste it in the water you won't taste it in your beer though. Also I think the "homebrew" taste and stink that I'm getting isn't much like chlorine.
Regarding sterile water, all I do is spray my tap with starsan before beginning. Are you Kit and Kilo guys pre-boiling (and cooling) all your water before adding to the fermenter and I never got the memo? If so maybe that's the trick, but I've never heard of anyone going that far for Kit and Kilos.

Still, I don't really suspect infection or sanitation being a problem either. I've tasted beers with a slight infection and picked it up right away. I'm not getting any sour notes in the taste or smell.

Loving the suggestions guys, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this. I would be so happy if I could keep a Coopers Pale Ale on tap that doesn't involve a 6 hour brew day!


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## Ducatiboy stu

Unless you can really smell the chlorine then I dont think you will have an issue from the water

Maybe try some spring water from the Aldiwoolcoles


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## motman

I recently went back to kits due to having kids and no time for AG brewing. I had hoped they'd be better than they were in the old days but I had the same experience as you - not good! I have been thinking one possibility is that I'm using a carbon filter to remove chlorine and it may be harbouring infection I'd normally knock out with full boils.

Ducatiboy's comments are promising though, I'll persist a few more.


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## peteru

It's the water. I've had exactly the same problem, several batches of beer just tasting off. I detected a clove-like tone in them all. When I did partial boil batches, they were better, but still had that "bad homebrew" undertone to them. All were done just with Sydney tap water.

Then, one day I decided to only use filtered water for everything I was doing. I have a 2 stage under sink filter, including a 1 micron sediment filter and coconut activated carbon filter. It slows everything down, because the water flow is much slower than from the tap, but the result is like night and day.

Haven't looked back since. These days I plan ahead and fill a keg and a 10L container with filtered right at the start. Then I just use this water as I go.


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## megabyte

Cool, I'll experiment with the water, that makes the most sense to me so far.

Where should I start?

1. I have an RO/DI filter from my old aquarium days, it still works well but I worry about sanitation.
2. I could buy some bottles from Aldwoolcoles, I know people do this, but without chlorine, is it sanitary?
3. I could boil and no-chill a cube worth of tap water from my brew kettle - would this be the best starting point?


I really want to nail this!


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## contrarian

Just sit your fermenter on the lawn today and by the afternoon you'll have plenty of pure rain water to experiment with!


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## Ducatiboy stu

Michael Burton said:


> Cool, I'll experiment with the water, that makes the most sense to me so far.
> 
> Where should I start?
> 
> 1. I have an RO/DI filter from my old aquarium days, it still works well but I worry about sanitation.
> 2. I could buy some bottles from Aldwoolcoles, I know people do this, but without chlorine, is it sanitary?
> 3. I could boil and no-chill a cube worth of tap water from my brew kettle - would this be the best starting point?
> 
> 
> I really want to nail this!


You could do all of these.

Top get the chloramine click here http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vitamin-c-for-chlorine-chloramine-removal.76953/


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## Ducatiboy stu

and here

https://inspiredliving.com/chloramine-filters/vitamin-c-removes-chloramines.htm


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## yum beer

If your after the Coopers feel with the yeast, I have found that using 05 with a small Coopers reculture will still give the Coopers estery profile while still brewing clean.
Water should not be a problem in the Gong...best water in the country.
Try 50/50 tap water and either distilled or rain. Spring water contains a lot if chemicals.


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## Black Devil Dog

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You could do all of these.
> 
> Top get the chloramine click here http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vitamin-c-for-chlorine-chloramine-removal.76953/





Ducatiboy stu said:


> and here
> 
> https://inspiredliving.com/chloramine-filters/vitamin-c-removes-chloramines.htm


Both of those links seem to be broken.


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## Coldspace

When I did coopers kits, use the can extract additive like the light malt or wheat malt, instead of the powdered BE2 etc. makes a difference in quality.
I all-grain, but have taught a few mates extract/kit brews, and when they do kits with can malt additives instead of powdered ones, made a big leap in quality of their beers.

Cooper yeast, robbed from 3 bottles, started in 500 mls with 25 grms lme, then upto 1.5 ltrs with 150 grms lme, on your yeast forge , when at high krausen, 18-24 hrs later, tip all straight into your fermenter which has been made upto 19.5 to 20 ltrs only with the kit and make can. 18 degrees, 10 days, 21 degrees, 4 days, cc, fine, leave for 1 week at 0 degrees, keg or bottle . You don't have to fine, 1 week at 0 usually cleans it up abit as well as leaving some suspended for that coopers taste. Some friends of mine prefer the filtered version , some like it el-natural. I drink it either way.lol.
Coming back down from all-grain you will notice a taste diff, but then again , done right , some extract brewers win awards, so good beer is possible. Abit of aging/largering in the keg for a couple weeks makes it a lot better live tasted some extract brews I've kegged up and thought, tip this onto the lawn, but then parked that keg at back of keezer and a month later was far far superior. Also , if over-carbed the beer tends to act like a soft drink, fizzy, big bubbles and kills the head.
Sparkling ale is scrumptious !!

I usually do the sparkling all-grain, but the kits have proved good with the above steps. Especially with can extract from coopers instead of powdered extracts.


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## Ducatiboy stu

Dont what happened there

Just google chloramine removal vitamin c


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## soundawake

I'm in the same boat as you OP. Never have had a kit beer that hasn't tasted like ass. All grain fine, kit beer bad. I think its just the kit beer. Some people just have different palates.


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## megabyte

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Top get the chloramine click here http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vitamin-c-for-chlorine-chloramine-removal.76953/


Interesting. I do have some campden tablets that I've never used, but Vitamin C sounds like to goods too. Couldn't hurt!



Coldspace said:


> When I did coopers kits, use the can extract additive like the light malt or wheat malt, instead of the powdered BE2 etc. makes a difference in quality.


Thanks for the detailed info! I heard on BrewStrong once that the goo in kit beers is made not to attenuate well because they know you're going to make up the rest of the malt bill with simple sugars. From memory they said using malt will result in a high FG. This said, I will add this to my list of things to try because it may be those simple sugars that create that "homebrew" taste I hate, and having a slightly maltier beer is far less of a concern for me.
I'm really glad to hear that you're getting good results from the kit.



soundawake said:


> ...I think its just the kit beer. Some people just have different palates.


In the back of my mind I am afraid of this too, but I hope that with all this new advice I can succeed in making the kits taste right. Coopers Pale Ale really isn't a complex style, so it *should* be possible.


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## Coldspace

Mine using coopers bottle yeast,1.5 ltr starter, airated wort really well, ie 1 min with a paint stirrer , always drops down to 1006 -1008 using extract can additives .

Give it ago again.


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## louistoo

Reading this with interest, put my first can brew down today since going extract with boil then all grain a year ago or so. Really hoping for a better result than I remember. 
I did a steep of some nelson sauvin in a 10 liter 1.050 dme wort in the hope of some hop flav. and aroma.
Yep, really don't want the old shit kit taste again so heres hoping that and a pitch of rehydrated bry 97 may help!

edit; the black rock tin I used came with a whopping 5g of yeast. WTF!


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## megabyte

louistoo said:


> Reading this with interest, put my first can brew down today since going extract with boil then all grain a year ago or so. Really hoping for a better result than I remember.


Keep us posted, I'd love to hear from AG brewers who have gone back to kits and had better results than when they first started.

UPDATE: I went shopping this arvo. Dropped by ALDI and eyed off their 10L water jugs but I couldn't justify spending $12 for brew water. Not until I'm out of cheaper options.
We also passed by the chemist and I found the ascorbic acid packs. 120g for about $14. Again, glad to know it's there but I'll have a go with my campden tablets first since I've never used them.
I did pick up a Tin of Coopers Australian Pale Ale and a pack of BE2 from Woolies while I was out so I'm not a complete cheapskate 

When I got home I boiled 25L of tap water with 1/4 of a campden tablet in my brew kettle for 5 minutes uncovered and racked to cube to cool overnight.
I also took 2 vials of Coopers bottle least that I saved from my last starter and added them to a 2L starter on a Yeast Forge at 24C. My vials are 65 days old so about 50% viability. They smelled fine and I know the beer I fermented with them last (my AG batch) turned out awesome so the yeast should be fine.

I hope to pitch in a day or 2 and we'll know if the unboiled tap water was to blame.


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## Grott

I don't use the enhancers with the Coopers but Coopers liquid malts and add my own maltodextrin. Tap water is filtered and in the main kit yeast used. Generally only brew from the International and Thomas Cooper ranges.
To be honest I find the results excellent and this is supported by family and friends. (unless they persistently like to drink crap).


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## pcmfisher

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Havent done one for a while, but always used BE2, fermed at about 18*c..ish
> 
> The Pale Ale kit really is very good if done properly, very close to the original
> 
> Have used kit yeast and re cultered
> 
> I have tasted beers made from kits and they where fantastic. Better than some AG beers ( mine included ) at swap meets
> 
> Nothing wrong with kit beers, and in saying that, most issues are caused after the tin has been opened


I am assuming here that you are not joking, but maybe you should do one now to see if it really is as good as you remembered.

I am convinced that some people's tastes must be way less particular than others.

To me a Coopers Pale tin with a kg of BE2 tastes nothing like the real stuff, don't care how its brewed.


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## Ducatiboy stu

Each batch of Coopers Pale that I try always tastes slightly different be it in a keg or in a bottle


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## pcmfisher

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Each batch of Coopers Pale that I try always tastes slightly different be it in a keg or in a bottle


But lets be honest here, they never taste like a tin and kg of BE2


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## Coodgee

I agree. Let's call a spade a spade here. It's not the water that makes a kit beer taste like shit. It's the contents of the can and the process of putting it in there.


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## spartan2007

Have been there .Only a newbie myself but changed my routine with my coopers brewing. I always boil my water night before i brew leave in fridge in containers with lid off to expell chlorine not great water in hervey bay. Dont use coopers enhancer i use morgans booster blend and their premium ale yeast with 10g of galaxy hopps in a tea steap for 15 minutes .Ferment at 18 c then cold crash at 2c then bottle .never had a bad batch doing this way which works for me .All my mates love it ,good luck


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## pablo_h

I've often though chlorine in the water is a big deal, after all we spend so much effort and time on yeast health it wouldn't be a good idea to dump yeast on unboiled tap water ala K+K brew style. (all my newbie attempts at such K+K brews failed years ago). Chlorine is added to water to kill microbes after all.
And it makes sense that AG brewing or even all extract (where boiling occurs for hopping) is not going to have that problem as all water is boiled.

I question what strength/effect chloramine has though. It seems it's so easily got rid of with tiny amounts of chemicals it may already be very weak in our water? Or sanatizer residue or something in the wort takes care of it in similar ways? IDK.
Most filters and boiling don't get rid of it so it's not a big difference between kits/extract or AG.

But thanks for the info stu about vit c. I might try that in the future side by side when I'm doing two identical brews. I've always been meaning to get campden tabs or something to deal with chloramines but always forget. I might have more chance remembering to get vit c somewhere on a regular shopping trip or something.

But for now, chlorine is a problem so at least let brewing water "gas off" overnight (or get a filter for it), and boil as much as you can in a partial, and really anything that yeast is going to be immediately subject to. E: Subject to after cooling that is


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## Markbeer

I think something has to be said for people's tastes.

Michael have you ever tasted a good can kit or extract brew? Let me rephrase that.

Have you ever tasted one where you couldn't taste the extract? 

Some people don't seem to be able to taste extract and others pick it straight away. If your one to pick it straight away then there is little you can do. 

I remember tasting the Garage Project Industrial IIPA. Even with all the hop extracts added all I could taste was malt extract like I just opened a can kit. Others couldn't detect it.

Maybe try boiling all your water, then if that doesn't work try and see if you can taste another's extract brew they feel is great.

I think out of the IBU club, only Eddie is the last extract brewer but he is converting. Bring a bottle and someone will know what's wrong next meet up.

Love your stir plates BTW.


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## megabyte

Markbeer said:


> Michael have you ever tasted a good can kit or extract brew? Let me rephrase that.
> 
> Have you ever tasted one where you couldn't taste the extract?


I've never tasted a good kit+kilo yet, but I've never tried one that someone else has brewed.

I have brewed extract beers (with steeping grains) that tasted fine to me, and I still top up my big beers with LME or DME if my mash tun is too small and I have no problems with it. I've never noticed the offensive "homebrew" taste from anything but kit+kilo batches.



Markbeer said:


> Maybe try boiling all your water, then if that doesn't work try and see if you can taste another's extract brew they feel is great.
> 
> I think out of the IBU club, only Eddie is the last extract brewer but he is converting. Bring a bottle and someone will know what's wrong next meet up.


Great suggestions. I've got a new batch of Coopers Australian Pale Ale + BE2 + Coopers Bottle yeast in the fermentor at 18C.
I've mixed it with pre-boiled water this time to rule that out as the main factor and I also brought the extract and BE2 up to a brief simmer before going into the fermenter just to be sure that everything is sanitary. I'll try bring a bottle along to stoutfest. I promise I won't be so mean as to enter them into the case swap! :lol:


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## GibboQLD

BE2 is 50% dextrose, which explains the thin/cidery taste -- wonder how BE3 would go? Given the high proportion of light DME in BE3, I'm pretty sure it was Coopers attempt at providing an adjunct that doesn't result in the "homebrew twang" that BE1/BE2 gives.

The only Coopers kit beers I've ever made that are missing that "twang" are the ones with little or no added dextrose, or with plenty of DME/spec grains to balance it out.


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## Cloth Ears

I haven't made anything other than K+K brews since I came back about 7 years ago. Prior to that I'd tried grain brewing in the 80s, but had never had consistently successful brews, so I gave it up and bought the amber fluid pre-brewed.
Then I noticed a Coopers kit for $99 in my local Coles (I think) and after watching Mercurio's video it produced the best brew I'd made (OK, memory may be a little hazy, but it was definitely drinkable - even in PET). I continued to experiment up to the point where, today, I brew 4 kit cans along with a whole bunch of other sugars and some spices, in a 60litre fermenter. I use only tap water (but I am in Melbourne) and I do a regular bleach to clean out the stuff before I use it. But the brews are so good I don't bother with grains except for flavouring and mouthfeel. And the rest of the family agrees, as I have to hide a dozen or so for consumption here at home.
I don't generally use any of the Coopers additives or malts. For powders, I go AHB and for liquids, I generally use Black Rock. And half the yeasts are Mangrove Jack, the rest are the K+K ones from Coopers - all dry pitched.


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## manticle

Any of the brewers who don't enjoy their own kits enjoy the flavour of brews by other kit brewers?

Would go a long way to working out if it's your palate/preference or your process/ingredients.


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## megabyte

GibboQLD said:


> BE2 is 50% dextrose, which explains the thin/cidery taste -- wonder how BE3 would go? Given the high proportion of light DME in BE3, I'm pretty sure it was Coopers attempt at providing an adjunct that doesn't result in the "homebrew twang" that BE1/BE2 gives.
> 
> The only Coopers kit beers I've ever made that are missing that "twang" are the ones with little or no added dextrose, or with plenty of DME/spec grains to balance it out.


2 very strong arguments for ditching the BE2. If the water doesn't help this batch I'll give DME a shot next time.



Cloth Ears said:


> ...I don't generally use any of the Coopers additives or malts. For powders, I go AHB and for liquids, I generally use Black Rock. And half the yeasts are Mangrove Jack, the rest are the K+K ones from Coopers - all dry pitched.


Another reason to ditch the BE2 then. Thanks for the advice on the possible alternatives.


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## MastersBrewery

Mike,
If this fails your next port of call will be taste bud transplant. .. and that sounds as painful as drinking tooheys new for the rest of your life


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## damoninja

I don't regularly brew kits, the last one I did was years ago and only because it was given to me.

Brewed up just great and people never knew it was a kit, in fact I've still got maybe a dozen stubbies lying about, popped one maybe 6 weeks ago and it's matured real nice.


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## manticle

manticle said:


> Any of the brewers who don't enjoy their own kits enjoy the flavour of brews by other kit brewers?
> Would go a long way to working out if it's your palate/preference or your process/ingredients.


I realise after reading that this question was asked and answered, at least from OP.

Pretty sure this is the crux though -unless you can point to a kk brew that tastes like you'd wish it to taste, you may be expecting too much.


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## peteru

I'm still convinced that the most likely fault is the water and possibly the cleaning processes. In particular I would suspect that any chlorine / chloramine present will result in flavour components that some of us are sensitive to and find offensive. I made somewhere between 6 and 8 batches of kit beer that I was unhappy with. Initially I thought my equipment was contaminated and I went as far as replacing everything. Still the same problems. Then I brewed a full boil extract batch and due to bad weather did not clean with pink powder / bleach but instead just used boiling water. The result was excellent. Next batch was full boil again, but this time I used pink powder and hot tap water to rinse. The result wasn't utter rubbish, but it was not quite right. I started suspecting chlorine. At that stage I decided to completely change my cleaning processes and only use unscented napisan to clean, then dry overnight and sanitise with boiling water. Again, the results were not quite right. On the next batch, I again used chlorine free cleaning and sanitising procedures, but also used water that went through a two stage water filter with brand new cartridges, including a coconut active carbon filter. The result was excellent.

Most recently I made a plain old green Coopers can with 1.7kg of Black Rock Light malt extract and 60g of Columbus for dry hopping, plus 7mL of Citra Hop Shot. I had a friend over and she polished off about 1/3 of the keg in one evening and her comment was: "This is great! Much better than the lolly water they brew at Flat Rock."

Now, I would not go as far as that, but it was certainly very drinkable for a kit with minimal tweaking. The curries at Flat Rock are very nice and more than make up for the hit and miss brews. If at all uncertain, the staff at Flat Rock will let you have a taste test before you order a whole pint and it's walking distance from my place (if you are fit or pissed)

TL;DR - kits are not destined to be horrible, but to get decent results out of them, you still need to be careful about the process.


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## Ducatiboy stu

At the recent(ish) Grafton show there was a a fair few Kit beers, and all but a couple where really good. The best one you wouldnt pick it for a kit.

It was surprising as most brewers would not be as fanatical as us

I have also had kit beers at swap meets and they where on par with some of the AG beers ( Frogman rate a high mention here )


Saying that all kit beer is crap is nonsesne and just not true


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## Deep End

I remember, when I first started brewing, every second brew I made tasted "wrong". I put that down to poor cleaning, although it may have been something else. I still only brew K&K. It does what I need it to do from a beer and I spend more time mucking around on other projects. However, they all taste fine to me. Anyone I have ever shared a brew with has been quite surprised by the lack of early 80's to early 90's homebrew taste in the beer I make. 

I put this down to a few variables. The first being decent water, straight from the tap. I drink a lot of water from my taps and I have no issue with it, Tasmanian water is good enough for me. Secondly, I bottle condition and prime each bottle, usually with carb drops, but sometimes with a measure. I just do not drink enough beer to justify needing to make the process any quicker or easier. Thirdly, which pertains to my consumption levels, my brews get plenty of time in the bottle to actually "condition". Three months would pass before the first bottle is cracked. 

I have noticed beers, and ciders and other brews, change their flavour over the course of time. Usually in the first three months or so. I do not know anything about cold crashing and kegging and doubt that I ever will need to. But I would hazard a guess that if you bottled a K&K brew and forgot about it for 6 months it might taste a bit nicer, at the very least it would have nice small bubbles and hold a head; if it had the body to do so in the first place.

That is my ten cents worth on the subject :blink:

Cheers

Deep End


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## Shadime

Excuse my ignorance but what is K&K?

Cheers


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## Yob

Kit and kilo


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## Curly79

Kit and Kilo mate. As in a Coopers Can and a Kilo of Fermentables.


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## stewy

Kit brew tastes like kit brew; you can improve it with sound sanitation, yeast handling & fermentation control... But, you can't polish a turd.

Treating water is largely pointless with kits, the profile has been locked in (with the exception of excess chloramines, sulfides)..

It is a great starting point though, and I can easily sit back with a few mates & throw back several home made kit beers.

Just set your expectations accordingly.


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## Vini2ton

I reckon it's in the production of the extract. I love this thread, as I have a Coopers lager kit sitting there waiting for me to brew up .just as some sort of nostalgic exercise. Spare fermenter waiting to go. It won't be wasted even if I can't stomach it, as it'll be shandied with some stout or whatever. Fond memories of early brewing. The fears, the processes (sanitise, sanitise, sanitise) and the buzz of getting pissed on something you made yourself. I can definitely taste extract malt in beers. Liquid is worse imho. But all booze is good compared to the alterative.


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## manticle

Not sure.
I have two batches in cubes (all grain) that are still fermenting but taste like my memory of kk - thin and a touch lifeless.

Both these had mash and boil issues due to equipment malfunction and at the end of a long brewday got way too much hot break carryover.
Take that brulosophy.
Stuff does matter.


----------



## contrarian

I've always thought that something must happen in the process of reducing a 23L wort down to a couple of litres. 

It's like dehydrated food that is then rehydrated. The end result is a close approximation of the original but is never the same. Like orange juice made from concentrate never tastes like juice straight from an orange. 

That said I've had beers made from kits that have been really tasty and easy to drink. Normally they have had a few more bits and pieces than a kk though.


----------



## megabyte

manticle said:


> I have two batches in cubes (all grain) that are still fermenting but taste like my memory of kk - thin and a touch lifeless.


I've brewed bad AG batches too - too many hops, too many cacao nibs, crappy malt choices, high finishing gravity, oh and the time I tried to toast and smoke my own wheat for a dunkelweizen (thanks iron brewer comp!)... but in all cases they still tasted like beer, never like a KK. Do let us know if you've come up with an AG KK clone 



contrarian said:


> It's like dehydrated food that is then rehydrated. The end result is a close approximation of the original but is never the same. Like orange juice made from concentrate never tastes like juice straight from an orange.


Good analogy. In this case I'm brewing the Coopers Australian Pale Ale kit which is meant to be similar to Coopers Pale Ale. I know the commercial beer is all malt (no adjunct) so it's going to be impossible for the K+K to clone it using BE2 which is 25% Dex and 25% Malto, plus as you say, even the malt in the kit has been dehydrated making matters worse. Still, I just want them to taste like proper beer (jokes aside about mega swill) even if it's not the same as the commercial brew.


----------



## petesbrew

Michael, the only kit that seems to be mentioned here is the Coopers Pale Ale.
Dare I ask, have you tried any other kits? 

One of the things I mean to do this year is go back and do a KnK brew for the hell of it. 

Personally I've never been a big fan of Coopers Pale Ale, whether it's from the brewery or out of a tin. The extra stout is my port of call.

I've done crap KnK's and crap AG's... obviously I've shed more tears over the bad AG brews.


----------



## megabyte

petesbrew said:


> Michael, the only kit that seems to be mentioned here is the Coopers Pale Ale.
> Dare I ask, have you tried any other kits?


Yep, in my early days I brewed many K&Ks, Home Brand Draught, Tooheys Special Draught, Coopers Mexican Cerveza, Coopers Lager, English Bitter, some experimental "Toucan" batches and many more that my mother in law kept buying for me... I never stomached more than a few glasses of them before they went down the drain. I'm sure most people would have given up and I'm glad I got into extract brewing before throwing in the towel.

I've been fixated on the Coopers Pale Ale kit lately because it gets good reviews over on the Coopers forum, I know the hopping schedule is simple and should be easy for Coopers to reproduce in a kit, and I know I can get the exact yeast that I culture up from a bottle. It's a simple beer, there really aren't any excuses why this kit should taste like piss.

If water is the problem, well I'll be surprised because my tap water tastes fine to me when it's not in beer, but I love learning new things! I'll know once this batch is kegged. If it's the BE2 that makes them taste like piss then that would be a terrible shame, that homebrew gets a terrible reputation and people are likely quitting the hobby because Coopers was selling a shitty brew enhancer that ruins anything it touches. I doubt it and I think they're better than that but still I'll test out that theory too if the water doesn't pan out.



petesbrew said:


> The extra stout is my port of call.


I've heard (a long time ago) that this is Coopers' best kit.


----------



## petesbrew

I meant the coopers black n yellow tallie, but yes I always liked the stout.

My favourite kits would've been the Stout, and the Canadian Blonde, a great base kit for experimenting.


----------



## Grott

Could this be the reason for some peoples dislike of k & k??  (need to enlarge to read?)


----------



## Droopy Brew

So you didnt like your kit beers to start with, then went to AG and liked the beers. Then went back to kit and still didn't like them. My best guess is that the water is not your main issue.
Oh and the LHBS guys saying they reckon they are great may have an ulterior motive, or low expectations.


----------



## pcmfisher

I don't think its the water either. Nor the dehydrated malt.

All I know is my kit brews all have an underlying kit taste.
My extract brews made with liquid malt, dry malt and dextrose don't have the same taste.

That said, when these subjects come up I get compelled to revisit kits, so I have a Coopers Pale and BE2 fermenting this minute.
We shall see.


----------



## Nick667

For me it was all about HWA (hot wort aeration ) but no one believes me!
Lots of air going into the FV while the goo and boiled water is still hot.
I have a really good sense of smell/taste that can be a problem sometimes and now I only brew AG but I was sometimes getting 'that taste ' in some of my grain beers until I learnt about HWA. Especially during summer and yes I have temp control.
Now I dont aerate in any way until under 26C and it works for me.
It used to be a whole lot cheaper to do those kit and kilo things once, and I use to drink them no matter how bad and after the initial shock friends would hoe in as well.
But now I am muuuuuuuuuch older.
Good luck. Good topic.
Nick.


----------



## megabyte

Nick667 said:


> For me it was all about HWA (hot wort aeration ) but no one believes me!
> Lots of air going into the FV while the goo and boiled water is still hot.


Wait, I thought HWA was no longer in vogue. Did it start affecting beers again after that german paper on low oxygen brewing was published last month? h34r:

But seriously I do like your suggestion. Whether HWA (or HSA or HWO) is fact or fiction, I will try to eliminate it from my next K&K. While I was splashing the cool water onto my hot wort I wondered if brewers from the BN Army would protest about hot side aeration, but on some level I thought "it's a K&K, surely there are going to be bigger issues to worry about". Next time I'll be more diligent now that you've brought it up.


----------



## contrarian

I call shenanigans! From what I've heard hot side aeration is only a concern in massive breweries who are pumping huge volumes at high speed. If you could reproduce those conditions while warming a can of goo and then mixing it with room temp water, just prior to pitching yeast I would be very surprised. 

Michael, I think that there have been a wide range of possibilities raised here but ocham's razor needs to come into play. A home made carbonara will never taste the same as a packet pasta. Both can taste good it they will never taste the same.


----------



## Digga

I love carbonara!


----------



## Adr_0

I wonder if a lot of people at your LHBS use sodium met, and heaps of it, as a sanitiser. As in some of the early posts, this is a way to remove chlorine and chloramines.

I've had many good chats with my LHBS owner who swears by it, but in the past when I've used it as a sanitiser I've had 50:50 results... probably worse than that actually. Since moving to Starsan I've had no issues with sanitation.

SO... I thought maybe I just wasn't using enough. If people dump a fair bit of powder in or a few tablets, swirl it around, then add their tap water it has likely sanitised and also left enough to dechlorinate. If in an area with chlorine only, one or two tabs is probably enough but this might not be enough for chloramines. I now use vitamin C (sodium ascorbate) which rocks.


Regarding your AG being ok, it I'm not sure how you do it. There is a stark difference between chlorine and chloramine - in terms of persistence. There is a heap of chloramine in the Gladstone water, but the Rocky boys up the road only have chlorine (gassed). I made a bitter a few batches which was totally ruined because I forgot to dechlorinate my sparge water (2/3 of the water) and I'm now particularly sensitive to bitter, plasticky, bandaidy chlorophenols. So if your local water uses chlorine rather than chloramine, your sitting/heating prior to dough in may have been enough. Your pouring of the water into the goo + adding yeast shortly after may not have been.


----------



## peekaboo_jones

Not sure Michael Burton...
As others stated the only pattern is your change to all grain is much better for you.

Some of my early kit brews were certainly bland but not un drinkable. I've made some partial mashes and they were a great step up.
I entered Vicbrew recently with a Coopers Mexican cerveza, 1kg dry malt, kit yeast and 100g dry hops and it came 10th. One packet of kit yeast too. 
Malt flavour was very low though... 
Hops give a fair bit to KnK brewing


----------



## megabyte

peekaboo_jones said:


> I entered Vicbrew recently with a Coopers Mexican cerveza, 1kg dry malt, kit yeast and 100g dry hops and it came 10th. One packet of kit yeast too.
> Malt flavour was very low though...
> Hops give a fair bit to KnK brewing


I think I'm seeing a trend that most brewers that are happy with their K&K's are using dry malt instead of BE2?


----------



## peteru

Yep, I've only ever used the pre-packaged "brew enhancers" twice. Once with the original Coopers brewing kit when I did my first ever batch decades ago. Then one more time when someone gave it to me because they decided not to brew any more after about 30 stubbies exploded in the back seat of their car.

There is absolutely no point in using that stuff. You are much better of buying a 1.5kg can of light malt extract and pouring that in.


----------



## jackgym

Since my comeback to home brewing I've put down about 14 brews, all with Cooper's kit and kilo.
The first 2 or 3 weren't that great,using the can and BE1 or BE2. After changing to light dry malt
instead of the BE and US-05 yeast things improved out of sight. Adding extra hops to your fancy
also improves the brew. If you want a really nice kit beer try the newer Cooper's Family Secret 
with 1kg of LDM and US-05 yeast. No need to add anything else. You won't know you're drinking
home brew.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

jackgym said:


> Since my comeback to home brewing I've put down about 14 brews, all with Cooper's kit and kilo.
> The first 2 or 3 weren't that great,using the can and BE1 or BE2. After changing to light dry malt
> instead of the BE and US-05 yeast things improved out of sight. Adding extra hops to your fancy
> also improves the brew. If you want a really nice kit beer try the newer Cooper's Family Secret
> with 1kg of LDM and US-05 yeast. No need to add anything else. You won't know you're drinking
> home brew.


They wont believe you


----------



## ekul

I think the main issue with kit beers is that you dont really get enough malt in the can and the amount of yeast is about half of what you would require. Plus kits always have tasted tinny to me.

I've tried quite a few of those MJ pouches recently from friends who have just started brewing and I have to say, i think its the can that is the main issue. You can still taste the weird bitterness you get with isohop in the MJ kits but it is greatly reduced. If you pump a MJ pouch up with some spec malts and a short hop boil you can make a very drinkable beer. Not as good as all grain but good nonetheless.


----------



## Goose

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Saying that all kit beer is crap is nonsesne and just not true


even crap golfers hit the once off amazing shots, but they never achieve consistency.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Golf...the impossible game


----------



## Goose

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Golf...the impossible game


a bit like consistent beer from kits


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Goose said:


> a bit like consistent beer from kits


How so.....I know people who do consistent kits, but are really shit at golf


----------



## Goose

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How so.....I know people who do consistent kits, but are really shit at golf


I'm afraid we differ on the first part. 

I was shit at both.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How so.....I know people who do consistent kits, but are really shit at golf


It's the shitty [email protected]#ken white ball that ruins what could be a nice walk with a few mates and brews.


----------



## Grott

Goose said:


> I'm afraid we differ on the first part.
> 
> I was shit at both.





You differ on the first part only because you haven't met someone that does consistent kits, but there are people that do.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY

Plenty of people do decent kit brews - even half of the kit haters on this site used to brew beers by that medium for a protracted period of time before they ascended to joining the All Grain Gods and never stepped back again. I do both as I am time-challenged and can not always find a half of a day to put on an all grain brew. If I am really time-poor I will get a fresh wort kit and just bung it on. I still have a few kits that were stockpiled before I started AG and I do still brew them with steeped crystal malt, a kilo of LDM and about 60 - 80 grams of my favourite hop additions - preferentially twenty minutest in to the the boil, at flameout and then at day four as a Dry hop addition. I like the beer a lot over and above the shit that Dan's tries to sell for $4 a stubby...


----------



## jackgym

There's really no excuse for not making a nice beer from kit and kilo.

When I came back to brewing I made sure I couldn't fail. I bought a Coopers fermenter and all the stuff that came with the kit. I bought a new bar fridge (the wife didn't want a crappy old one inside) and made sure the fermenter fitted inside. Ebay supplied me with an STC1000 temp. controller and a mate wired it up. Ales are brewed at 18% and lagers at 12% (I haven't bothered with lagers yet). I substitute the brew enhancer with 1 kg of light dried malt. I don't bother taking a hydrometer reading, just leave the beer in the fermenter for 14 days. That gives it a few days for the yeast to drop out and clear. If I'm not brewing the new Cooper's range, I use the Aust. pale ale as a base and add different hops (steeped in boiling water) according to which recipe, like a 150 Lashes clone or a fruit salad ale. The 11g US-05 yeast is tried and true for ales, not the 7g kit yeast which is flat out turning the brew over. *EASY AS*.

A tip for mixing the malt.
Pour about 1.5 - 2 kilos of hot water into the fermenter and tip in the malt. Leave the spoon in and swirl the fermenter around and watch the malt dissolve without any lumps.


----------



## danestead

jackgym said:


> Ales are brewed at 18% and lagers at 12% (I haven't bothered with lagers yet).


Bloody hell, your parties must be a heck of a lot of fun.


----------



## Goose

grott said:


> You differ on the first part only because you haven't met someone that does consistent kits, but there are people that do.


well my prognosis is that those people that do, have a supply of consistent quality kits. guess I don't 



jackgym said:


> There's really no excuse for not making a nice beer from kit and kilo.


I can think of a few actually. but best we don't go there.


----------



## Lecterfan

My uncle in WA makes great kit beer, best kit beer I've tasted, in fact (some of Yob's came close). I drink it happily and in great amounts when I visit him. It still tastes like kit beer, though, lets not kid ourselves on that front. There is no value judgement here, however: for some, the slightest residue of the kit taste is annoying because they want total (or as much) control over their product (as they can get)... the sort of control that only AG gives. Either go AG or enjoy the excellent results that you can have within the parameters of kit beers. Four pages and no war has started. Not fussed if this post starts one. Triangle test me and most decent give-a-shit-about-process brewers who have been at it for 5 years or more and the difference will be detected. Don't kid yourself that it is just water or the stage of the moon or what you had for brekkie.


----------



## manticle

Not even if it's bacon?


----------



## Lecterfan

Especially then, because your taste receptors are all turned on by the pure sex of pig fat and become indiscriminate receivers of decadent flavours.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Lecterfan said:


> Especially then, because your taste receptors are all turned on by the pure sex of pig fat and become indiscriminate receivers of decadent flavours.


Mmm,.....Bacon


----------



## jackgym

danestead said:


> Bloody hell, your parties must be a heck of a lot of fun.


Wot parties? I ain't giving this stuff to the masses. :chug:


----------



## jackgym

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Plenty of people do decent kit brews -
> I still have a few kits that were stockpiled before I started AG and I do still brew them with steeped crystal malt, a kilo of LDM and about 60 - 80 grams of my favourite hop additions -
> I like the beer a lot over and above the shit that Dan's tries to sell for $4 a stubby...
> 
> Yes, and I'm one of them. I must try adding crystal malt to my kits, although it's hard to improve on perfection. :blink:


----------



## jackgym

jackgym said:


> Plenty of people do decent kit brews -
> I still have a few kits that were stockpiled before I started AG and I do still brew them with steeped crystal malt, a kilo of LDM and about 60 - 80 grams of my favourite hop additions -
> 
> 
> Yes, and I'm one of them.
> I must try adding crystal malt to my kits, although it's hard to improve on perfection. :blink:
Click to expand...


----------



## jackgym

Lecterfan said:


> My uncle in WA makes great kit beer, best kit beer I've tasted, in fact (some of Yob's came close). I drink it happily and in great amounts when I visit him. It still tastes like kit beer, though, lets not kid ourselves on that front. There is no value judgement here, however: for some, the slightest residue of the kit taste is annoying because they want total (or as much) control over their product (as they can get)... the sort of control that only AG gives. Either go AG or enjoy the excellent results that you can have within the parameters of kit beers. Four pages and no war has started. Not fussed if this post starts one. Triangle test me and most decent give-a-shit-about-process brewers who have been at it for 5 years or more and the difference will be detected. Don't kid yourself that it is just water or the stage of the moon or what you had for brekkie.


My kit beer tastes like the real beer you could buy before they started selling the watered down commercial piss of today. If people have the inability to follow simple instructions with kits and can't brew anything drinkable, then they need to turn to all grain and kid themselves that 6 hours of brewing will turn out perfection. :beerbang:


----------



## Grott

jackgym said:


> My kit beer tastes like the real beer you could buy before they *started selling the watered down commercial piss of today*. . :beerbang:


You can say that again


----------



## louistoo

Quick update on my can brew after bottling t'other day. I added a kilo of half n half (dme/dex) and .7kg of dry wheat extract which I brought to boil in 10l water.
flame out added 25g nelson sauvin
80c another 25g the same
Result.. higher gravity and some hop flavour/aroma and more bitterness to the black rock can (didn't boil can contents)
Taste at bottling reveal a better result than feared but undeniably still identifiable can twang..
Oh and nelson sauvin is as white winey as everyone says, especially used like this (late) 

edit; og 1.054. vol. 20l


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Yes ... Nelson Sav is rather strong and can easily dominate everything


----------



## TheWiggman

I used NS once and never will again


----------



## jackgym

TheWiggman said:


> I used NS once and never will again


You won't be making a 150 Lashes clone then. The recipe uses 12g of Amarillo & 25g NS. Beautiful drop.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Me too...I can still taste it


----------



## TheWiggman

Regarding the 150 Lashes, I tried it for the first time last weekend and on the first sip said to my wife "all I can taste is Nelson Sauvin, I'll bet it's in it". After being called a weirdo I checked online and boom there it was. No thanks, I'm with Stu.


----------



## mashhammer

Michael

Would love to hear your results...

Can't say I am any kind of brewing expert and yet to try AG.

What I will say is this:
1. I have done several types of Coopers can recipes, even the Coopers "Craft Brew". 
2. I have only ever used DME (dark and light) as the "kilo" part, never tried BE2 or any other.
3. With these I have tried different "bits" e.g. crystal steeping, partial mash etc
4. I have changed several process along the way, but never tried boiling the water.
5. I have tried different yeasts other than the one supplied, I've tried re-hydrating, haven't tried liquid, re-cultured, or a starter.

I always end up with some level of the extract twang!

I have done several fresh work kits and no detectable bad taste.

I noticed that hops and/or a bit of grain steeping etc does change the level of badness. I think a good dose of hop flavouring and/or dry hop goes a long way towards masking the problem.

Also I notice that ageing makes a difference too, at least 3 months.

So I would really like to hear the outcome from those here who have noticed the badness and have re-visited can kit brewing with different processes. 

Cheers


----------



## Grott

In general I have only tasted the "twang" when drinking weak bodied brews like Canadian Blonde where dextrose has been used as the dominant fermentable.( As previously stated I only use malt.)
​Not every everybody likes heavy hopped beers and therefore if you have to change the taste of the particular style your trying to brew to remove "bad taste" then why would you.


----------



## motman

I'm beginning to think some people are sensitive to the twang and others not but it's always there. Just like some people are more sensitive to dms than others. Unfortunately I seem to be pretty sensitive, as I'd love to be able to get away with kit brews rather than use up brownie points on a whole brew day my wife has the kids for. Just can't enjoy the stuff though.


----------



## jackgym

grott said:


> In general I have only tasted the "twang" when drinking weak bodied brews like Canadian Blonde where dextrose has been used as the dominant fermentable.( As previously stated I only use malt.)
> ​Not every everybody likes heavy hopped beers and therefore if you have to change the taste of the particular style your trying to brew to remove "bad taste" then why would you.


Have you brewed any of the newer Cooper's kits, Family Secret or Inkeepers Daughter? Using LDM and US-05 yeast produce a great beer without the need to re-hop.


----------



## Grott

I have a Family Secret Amber Ale in the fermenter now using liquid light malt extract and the Thomas Cooper kit yeast.
Out of stock now but the Thomas Cooper Wheat beer, Australian Bitter and IPA Brewer this year were great with same additives. Except for stouts I keg now and I find carbonation with co2 rather than sugar/ drops in bottles gives a real "crispness" to the brew.
Cheers


----------



## Grott

motman said:


> Out of interest can you give an example of a kit brew you have done, maker, style, additives etc? Bottled/ kegged?
> Cheers


----------



## Goose

TheWiggman said:


> Regarding the 150 Lashes, I tried it for the first time last weekend and on the first sip said to my wife "all I can taste is Nelson Sauvin, I'll bet it's in it". After being called a weirdo I checked online and boom there it was. No thanks, I'm with Stu.


 :icon_offtopic:

NS is definitely way out there, its not even a subtle sauvignon blanc smell and taste, its full on. But like anything, best used in moderation.

A hop with a similar flavour profile is the German Hallertau Blanc, more subtle, less dank than NS. Though I am guessing you are not a fan of white wine aromas or flavours in beer  though each to their own, I have tried it in light summer ales and most recently in a lager and find them very refreshing drops.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

You only need about 0.5IBU of NS to have a marked effect


----------



## Vini2ton

Has anyone brewed any kits using saison yeasts? Made a couple of BIAB saisons last summer and was amazed at what the yeast chewed down to. I wonder what they may bring to kit brewing?


----------



## peekaboo_jones

Vini2ton said:


> Has anyone brewed any kits using saison yeasts? Made a couple of BIAB saisons last summer and was amazed at what the yeast chewed down to. I wonder what they may bring to kit brewing?


Yes.
I've made 3 Saison's with kit cans, light dry malt and steeped grains. And all came out lovely.
One was entered into a comp and scored 85+ points in Vicbrew 2015, used the Coopers Aussie Pale ale can, some medium crystal, wheat crystal and light dry malt. No hops.
Belle Saison yeast at 18C. This one had too much crystal though apparently, otherwise it may have done better, also the Pilsner or Canadian blonde can would be good as a base. And only carapils?

Does the Saison yeast dominate any off kit twang flavours? I don't know...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Vini2ton said:


> Has anyone brewed any kits using saison yeasts? Made a couple of BIAB saisons last summer and was amazed at what the yeast chewed down to. I wonder what they may bring to kit brewing?


Very good question

Kolsch would work well


----------



## rude

Shit long thread havent read it all but K&K no worries

Anyone who cant make a decent beer out of a K&K aint a brewer
you do need to give it love though h34r: h34r: h34r:


----------



## wereprawn

Did a few Saisons with kit bases a few years ago. The pepper and slight tartness does seem to mask the kit twang. One standout brew was a tin Coopers Dark , some Special B, Carafa 3 and a fair bit of LDME, fermented with Belle saison . This one sat under a thick raft of mould for the whole Summer as I thought it was rooted and it simply sat in the corner forgotten .

The time came when I needed my 2nd fv back .I decided to have taste , just for laughs, and to my surprise there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

After it was carbed I had a few with a visitor . He was raving about it, best beer he'd ever tasted ect.....

I reckon It was a combo of dark malts, yeast, time and abv (7.6%). Zero twang.


----------



## megabyte

There's a lot of talk about WilliamsWarn in the other threads lately which inspired me look into how they are making "award winning" beers with K&Ks. Looking at their American Pale Ale for example, they use Fermentis yeast and DME, with no mention of dextrose or malto. They also recommend making a hop tea and adding to the fermenter. They ferment at 23C which helps explain how they can ferment out within a week. The take away here for me is that BE2 is still probably the main cause of my twang and I need to brew again to test results with all DME.

Regarding the NS hops, I brewed Ross's Nelson Saivin Summer Ale a few years back and I quite liked it. That guy does work miracles with beer though. Maybe it's that teaspoon of table salt? I dunno. Somehow it just worked.
:chug:


----------



## jackgym

rude said:


> Shit long thread havent read it all but K&K no worries
> 
> Anyone who cant make a decent beer out of a K&K aint a brewer
> you do need to give it love though h34r: h34r: h34r:


Quite agree. I think some blokes' palates are destroyed by the thin commercial crap they drink, like Corona and suchlike.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Michael Burton said:


> There's a lot of talk about WilliamsWarn in the other threads lately which inspired me look into how they are making "award winning" beers with K&Ks.


You dont need a WW to make award winning beers


----------



## megabyte

Of course not, I just wanted to know how they make a kit win awards.

I expect that if I poured my Coopers goop and BE2 into a WW it would taste just the same.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

The way WW do it is to enter a competition that only has beers made in a WW


----------



## jackgym

Maybe some of you brewers can take the "twang" out of your beer with one of these contraptions?
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home/art-brew-launches-on-kickstarter/


----------



## manticle

jackgym said:


> Quite agree. I think some blokes' palates are destroyed by the thin commercial crap they drink, like Corona and suchlike.


I'm not anti - kit in the slightest but how on earth are ag brewers likely to be destroying their palates with corona in such a way their ag beers are good but their kits aren't?

One of the weirdest assertions I've seen for a bit.


----------



## jackgym

manticle said:


> I'm not anti - kit in the slightest but how on earth are ag brewers likely to be destroying their palates with corona in such a way their ag beers are good but their kits aren't?
> 
> One of the weirdest assertions I've seen for a bit.


I'm talking about the kit brewers.


----------



## manticle

You think the elusive kit twang detected by so many different brewers of different backgrounds is because they all drink corona?

I'm still lost mate. Can you elaborate?


----------



## louistoo

Regards the NS, I liked tuatara's sauvinova. Great beer 100% NS


----------



## jackgym

louistoo said:


> Regards the NS, I liked tuatara's sauvinova. Great beer 100% NS


Hi
Do you know the ingredients of Tuatara Sauvinova? :chug:


----------



## Goose

jackgym said:


> Hi
> Do you know the ingredients of Tuatara Sauvinova? :chug:


http://tuatarabrewing.co.nz/beer/sauvinova/


----------



## petesbrew

For shits n giggles, I bought a Coopers Real Ale kit today, ready to throw down tomorrow. First Knk beer in many years.
Just going to do something simple like:
Coopers Real Ale
1kg LDME
200g Crystal (steeped)
20g Goldings
WLP013 London Ale Yeast.
Fill to 23L
Ferment at 18c


----------



## gdupagne

jackgym said:


> You won't be making a 150 Lashes clone then. The recipe uses 12g of Amarillo & 25g NS. Beautiful drop.


recipe?


----------



## jackgym

gdupagne said:


> recipe?


I just used a kit recipe.
Tin of Coopers Aust. Pale Ale
1kg light dry malt
12g Amarillo hops steeped in boiled water
US-05 yeast
25g Nelson Sauvin dry hopped


----------



## gdupagne

How close is it?


----------



## manticle

Dunno. Been drinking corona.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

In Tasmania, that would nearly be classed as less that water....yes ?


----------



## jackgym

gdupagne said:


> How close is it?


Close enough.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY

manticle said:


> Dunno. Been drinking corona.


They say if you put a wedge of lime in it then people will mistake you for some famous fella called Johnny Depp.


----------



## jackgym

LAGERFRENZY said:


> They say if you put a wedge of lime in it then people will mistake you for some famous fella called Johnny Depp.


Lmao!


----------



## danestead

manticle said:


> Dunno. Been drinking corona.


I watched Megafactories on Corona yesterday on TV. They spit out 20,000,000 bottles per day. No wonder it tastes like water!


----------



## jackgym

danestead said:


> I watched Megafactories on Corona yesterday on TV. They spit out 20,000,000 bottles per day. No wonder it tastes like water!


Mega-swill for the group-thinking Yuppies.


----------



## Vini2ton

Speaking of kits. I was in Dans today and saw coopers IPA and some other new fangled type kit priced at $22.95 or so. Have they got a no-twang guarantee or something. Craft kit? $22.95 can buy some nice grain.


----------



## petesbrew

petesbrew said:


> For shits n giggles, I bought a Coopers Real Ale kit today, ready to throw down tomorrow. First Knk beer in many years.
> Just going to do something simple like:
> Coopers Real Ale
> 1.2kg LDME
> 200g Crystal (steeped)
> 16g Goldings
> 16g Target
> WLP013 London Ale Yeast.
> Fill to 23L
> OG=1042


Finally made this today, as it took a few days for the yeast to fire up. Recipe fixed.

Sitting in the cool garage. We'll see how this baby turns out. (if it tastes bad, I can always wash it down with a Corona).


----------



## Toad

For what's worth I found steeping some crystal and fermenting us05 at 18 to 20 made my brews go from home brew twang to better than Sunday morning dumplings


----------



## peteru

Somewhere between 500g to 1kg of steeped biscuit malt with a can of Coopers IPA and a can of Black Rock light malt is very drinkable. Make up to 25L and dry hop with a generous amount of Cascade.


----------



## petesbrew

petesbrew said:


> Finally made this today, as it took a few days for the yeast to fire up. Recipe fixed.
> 
> Sitting in the cool garage. We'll see how this baby turns out. (if it tastes bad, I can always wash it down with a Corona).


Well my knk Real ale is about ready to bottle. The hydrometer samples are tasting very promising.
We'll see how they taste out of the bottle, but it's been a nice easy venture. It definitely doesn't taste bad.


----------



## Lionman

The issue with K&K brew is that most kits are very low IBU and have no late hops. There isn't anything to hide behind. This isn't really a bad thing but when you're essentially rehydrating wort you can't expect miracles. Crisp low IBU, low hop beers really benefit from quality ingredients and quality process. Any mistakes or issues will be very plain to see.

Pretty much all Coopers beers are really bland and one dimensional anyway so I can't imagine why you would want to replicate it at home. Coopers is a last resort beer for me, for when the only alternative is VB. Each to their own, though.

I have enjoyed some kit based brews either toucans or with an extra kg or 2 of extract (never dextrose) added and some late edition hops and dry hopping. You can push the IBU up pretty easily to the 40-70 range and create some pretty tasty APAs or IPAs. I enjoy pushing the OG up too, better value for money and high ABV commercial beers are REALLY expensive (thank you govmnt).


----------



## pcmfisher

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Havent done one for a while, but always used BE2, fermed at about 18*c..ish
> 
> The Pale Ale kit really is very good if done properly, very close to the original
> 
> Have used kit yeast and re cultered
> 
> I have tasted beers made from kits and they where fantastic. Better than some AG beers ( mine included ) at swap meets
> 
> Nothing wrong with kit beers, and in saying that, most issues are caused after the tin has been opened


This thread has caused me to make one.

Coopers Pale, BE2, Kit yeast @18 deg, and I have to say..............it tastes absolutely nothing like the original. I am assuming you are serious here.
Some that I have given a try like it, but to me it tastes pretty average and the reason I don't do many kits.

I will try again though.
This time with 1.5kg Liquid malt and US05.


----------



## manticle

In my view, coopers yeast is the signature flavour of the commercial. Be interested to hear your results using properly recultured stuff.


----------



## TheWiggman

Lionman said:


> Pretty much all Coopers beers are really bland and one dimensional anyway so I can't imagine why you would want to replicate it at home.


Coopers Sparkling ale and Best Extra Stout are one-dimensional? Can't agree with you there, I find both to be very enjoyable beers.
Ed: noticed you said "pretty much", still I think they're overall decent because as manticle suggested, the yeast lends a lot to the beers.


----------



## yankinoz

manticle said:


> In my view, coopers yeast is the signature flavour of the commercial. Be interested to hear your results using properly recultured stuff.


Also interested. I'd love to try the real Coopers yeast on an English bitter--sort of Coopers Mild with a dash of caramel and English hops--but have been too lazy to do the culturing. I recall a rumour somewhere that White Labs Australian Ale yeast is the Coopers strain. Any truth in it?


----------



## Lionman

TheWiggman said:


> I think they're overall decent because as manticle suggested, the yeast lends a lot to the beers.


That's the one dimension. 

Sparkling Ale is one of the most drinkable, widely available and affordable beers, though.


----------



## manticle

Reports suggest the WL is similar but not identical to coopers bottle reculture.
Besides the massive number of variables comparing a pure commercial culture to an HB reculture, I offer you some second hand anecdotal evidence so take from it what you will.


----------



## TheWiggman

I recall reading here that Coopers' yeast (that Coopers used) consisted of a few strains originally, a blend. Over the years they've narrowed it down and now use a single yeast strain for their commercial products. The Whitelabs ale yeast was one of the older blends and consists of 3 different yeasts.


----------



## peteru

pcmfisher said:


> Coopers Pale, BE2, Kit yeast @18 deg, and I have to say..............it tastes absolutely nothing like the original.


That's not really a surprise. It's not what is in the original. For starters, the yeast shipped with kits is not the same yeast as used for the commercial beer. If you want to clone, you'll have to culture a decent amount of the original yeast from the bottle. I also doubt that Coopers would bother throwing in dextrose and maltodextrin - it's very likely to be all malt.




pcmfisher said:


> This time with 1.5kg Liquid malt and US05.


Definitely a good idea to go all malt, rather than the "enhancers". I use a can of Coopers light malt. Going with US05 will miss the mark, if you are trying to clone.


----------



## livewiremjk

Wow. What an interesting topic.
I've never made an all grain beer. I've been using Coopers, etc LME cans (or what ever the recipe I'm using requires) with great results.
I've made some terrible beers. But I've made some really great ones. And plenty that I'm happy to share with others and watch their surprise when they taste good home brew..

I never use the coopers yeast. I always use a water filter. I always boil everything, even if it's just for a few mins, especially when I've steeped 500g of grains. I always make a yeast starter, and I usually let it ferment for 14 days, with a cold crash at the end. Sometimes I use Coopers BE2 but mostly I use DME, Dex & Powdered Corn Syrup from my LHBS. If the recipe calls for it, I'll boil hops too. I can get consistent results and pleasant beers using LME.

There's no way I'll be going all grain when I can get the type of results I'm getting. My brew day is usually about 2.5 hours and that includes set up and clean up.
I've tried fresh wort kits from All Inn Brewing in Brisbane, and yes, they are very nice, especially with a dry hop, but then again, those guys know what they're doing and I'd expect their product to taste great.

Brewing beer is less of a hobby to me than drinking beer, and I get that some people want to learn all they can about beer making. I know enough to keep my kegerator stocked with beer that tastes better than some of the "craft beers" I've tried from the bottle shop, and that's enough for me. 

Can you make great tasting beer from a Kit? Absolutley.


----------



## peteru

I've got a keg of Cooper's Inn Keeper's Daughter (DIY can version of Sparkling Ale), brewed with a 1.7kg can of Cooper's light malt extract and kit yeast that was stepped up to about a 1.5L starter. I was pretty happy with the result. I had a couple of days of not drinking beer (due to being a bit ill with the flu) and the first glass I had did not taste as good as I remembered from earlier in the week. I shrugged my shoulders and thought perhaps it's due to the first glass having some beer that has been sitting in the lines for a few days. I poured a second glass and noticed that it pours completely clear, instead of the classic Copper's "cloudy but fine" look. Again, I found that glass a little lacking when compared to the glasses I had previously.

I wonder what's going on there. Could be that my palate is affected by the flu. Or it could be that the lack of suspended yeast robs the beer of that essential character. I guess I'll give it a couple of days and pour a glass. Then shake the keg to agitate the yeast and pour another one for comparison.


----------



## Coldspace

Done a heap of sparkling ale kits in previous years, temp control and nice starter of recultured yeast makes all the difference. Most turned out nicer than the commercial ones, more flavour


----------



## Grott

livewiremjk said:


> Can you make great tasting beer from a Kit? Absolutley.


Use the better ingredients such as liquid malts vs enhancers, Coopers International and Thomas Cooper ranges (as an example) rather than home brands etc, good temp control and a bit of maturing goes long way for a decent kit beer.


----------



## Coodgee

That coopers real ale always tasted really cidery to me.


----------



## Brewsta

i've always been plagued with the Extract Twang in all my kit brews that i have done. I have managed to lesson the taste by adding adjuncts & better brewing techniques but always noticeable. I have often thought the dreaded twang is to do with the "hopped" extract inside the tin & not so much the extract itself.

to add to a previous post by Ekul, 




ekul said:


> I think the main issue with kit beers is that you dont really get enough malt in the can and the amount of yeast is about half of what you would require. Plus kits always have tasted tinny to me.
> 
> I've tried quite a few of those MJ pouches recently from friends who have just started brewing and I have to say, i think its the can that is the main issue. You can still taste the weird bitterness you get with isohop in the MJ kits but it is greatly reduced. If you pump a MJ pouch up with some spec malts and a short hop boil you can make a very drinkable beer. Not as good as all grain but good nonetheless.



could there be some reaction (say from the acids in the hops or something) to the metal can or the coating inside the can??? After all it's in there for a while before we open it…who knows whats happening to those precious flavours. Even beer in a can tastes different from a stubby wouldn't you agree???

Our local HBS also sells hopped kits in bags not tins & i must say the extract twang in those is far less noticeable, i'm pretty sure it's still a hopped coopers malt they use, they just buy in bulk and decant.

If you dip your finger into a hopped tin no matter the brand as opposed to a un-hopped tin of liquid malt extract & taste it, i reckon you can pick the twang in the kit can right from the start or is it just me???

Since brewing only plain malt extracts, steeping a few grains, changing my yeast & improving my brewing technique, (all thanks to the knowledge sharing of everyone on this site) i no longer suffer from the dreaded ET's. But as soon as i get lazy & put down a K&K, WHAMO!!!…there it is back again like an unwanted case of Herpes.

Maybe water & bad brewing techniques as previously mentioned could accentuate the unwanted flavour? dunno? but my money is on the "hopped" extract in a tin & the older it is the worse it is.

Just a theory, i don't have a degree in food technology to back it up though!!! i'm just a busted arse home brewer wishing he had the time to go AG.


----------



## Darkflavour

Always prefered using two un-hopped cans, wait for it, I used to know the lingo, LME? 

Get boil happening, then ad hops at additions id want. More bitterness, longer boil, ad hops at start of boil, and of course your flavouring and aroma at whatever points ya fancy.


----------



## Aussie Mick

jackgym said:


> Since my comeback to home brewing I've put down about 14 brews, all with Cooper's kit and kilo.
> The first 2 or 3 weren't that great,using the can and BE1 or BE2. After changing to light dry malt
> instead of the BE and US-05 yeast things improved out of sight. Adding extra hops to your fancy
> also improves the brew. If you want a really nice kit beer try the newer Cooper's Family Secret
> with 1kg of LDM and US-05 yeast. No need to add anything else. You won't know you're drinking
> home brew.


I will second this.

Sampled mine today after only 13 days bottled, and it is very good already.

Thanks for sharing jackgym


----------



## Barge

Brewsta said:


> i've always been plagued with the Extract Twang in all my kit brews that i have done. I have managed to lesson the taste by adding adjuncts & better brewing techniques but always noticeable. I have often thought the dreaded twang is to do with the "hopped" extract inside the tin & not so much the extract itself.
> 
> to add to a previous post by Ekul,
> 
> 
> 
> could there be some reaction (say from the acids in the hops or something) to the metal can or the coating inside the can??? After all it's in there for a while before we open it…who knows whats happening to those precious flavours. Even beer in a can tastes different from a stubby wouldn't you agree???
> 
> Our local HBS also sells hopped kits in bags not tins & i must say the extract twang in those is far less noticeable, i'm pretty sure it's still a hopped coopers malt they use, they just buy in bulk and decant.
> 
> If you dip your finger into a hopped tin no matter the brand as opposed to a un-hopped tin of liquid malt extract & taste it, i reckon you can pick the twang in the kit can right from the start or is it just me???
> 
> Since brewing only plain malt extracts, steeping a few grains, changing my yeast & improving my brewing technique, (all thanks to the knowledge sharing of everyone on this site) i no longer suffer from the dreaded ET's. But as soon as i get lazy & put down a K&K, WHAMO!!!…there it is back again like an unwanted case of Herpes.
> 
> Maybe water & bad brewing techniques as previously mentioned could accentuate the unwanted flavour? dunno? but my money is on the "hopped" extract in a tin & the older it is the worse it is.
> 
> Just a theory, i don't have a degree in food technology to back it up though!!! i'm just a busted arse home brewer wishing he had the time to go AG.


I used to think that hopped extract were responsible for the twang but now I'm not so sure.

I brew AG but supplement with kits/bits and the odd FWK. Over the years my technique has improved. Pitching adequate yeast, using good yeast, temp controlled fermentation, better sanitation, etc.

l think that these factors have been most responsible for eliminating twang. In particular, I think that using decent yeast (ie not kit yeast) and temp controlled fermentation will produce excellent beer regardless. I can now brew any method (kit, AG, etc) and produce beers that are indistinguishable.

I still think the age of the tin plays a part, however. Really old tins will show up in the taste. Also, I wouldn't go so far to say you could brew a CAP or a light lager with extract. The bigger malt and hops flavours in the ales I brew probably help. I'll have to brew a NG pils this summer and see how it goes.


----------



## pcmfisher

Barge said:


> I used to think that hopped extract were responsible for the twang but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> I brew AG but supplement with kits/bits and the odd FWK. Over the years my technique has improved. Pitching adequate yeast, using good yeast, temp controlled fermentation, better sanitation, etc.
> 
> l think that these factors have been most responsible for eliminating twang. In particular, I think that using decent yeast (ie not kit yeast) and temp controlled fermentation will produce excellent beer regardless. *I can now brew any method (kit, AG, etc) and produce beers that are indistinguishable.*
> 
> I still think the age of the tin plays a part, however. Really old tins will show up in the taste. Also, I wouldn't go so far to say you could brew a CAP or a light lager with extract. The bigger malt and hops flavours in the ales I brew probably help. I'll have to brew a NG pils this summer and see how it goes.


Why would you ever brew AG then?


----------



## ziggy459

Hi Guys..

Well I hadn't done a Coopers Pale for years, but did 2 earlier this month and I have to say I could not tell the diff between that and at the pub.. only the cost.....

I brewed them both in plastic and than kegged.. I have attached 2 pic with my readings, and btw the fermenters I have been using are now around 10 years old and still good to go.

And just used the yeast as is no stuffing around....








rgds
Chris


----------



## megabyte

Kit yeast and BE2 eh?

Did you bother rehydrating the yeast?
Temperature controlled at 22˚C?


----------



## tugger

Does everyone have no problems with the taste of extract brews with out hopped extract. 
I believe it's the breakdown of hops in the can giving that homebrew twang.


----------



## ziggy459

Michael Burton said:


> Kit yeast and BE2 eh?
> 
> Did you bother rehydrating the yeast?
> Temperature controlled at 22˚C?


No I just used the yeast under the lid and just pitched it dry, used 1kg BE2 only no hops etc. I brewed those 2 in the kitchen were it was at that temp for over a week, have brewed in the fridge before but not these ones.

And that brew btw is just about gone good to the last drop.


----------



## Parks

A quick read through this thread has me wondering about the "tinny taste" of kit brews. I wonder if it's excessive mineral content?

e.g., if I were to make a standard all grain batch, dehydrate it, then later re-hydrate it I would have doubled the mineral content of the beer from the water supply.


----------



## Barge

pcmfisher said:


> Why would you ever brew AG then?


I meant to address that in my post. 

Brewing AG obviously gives me more control over the malt bill. Controlling the mash temp gives me further control over fermentability (and in the case of weizens, I can influence the flavour profile). It's also fun to do AG, even if it's time consuming.


----------



## pcmfisher

ziggy459 said:


> Hi Guys..
> 
> Well I hadn't done a Coopers Pale for years, but did 2 earlier this month and I have to say I could not tell the diff between that and at the pub.. only the cost.....
> 
> I brewed them both in plastic and than kegged.. I have attached 2 pic with my readings, and btw the fermenters I have been using are now around 10 years old and still good to go.
> 
> And just used the yeast as is no stuffing around....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ashampoo_Snap_2016.11.08_11h29m21s_001_.png
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ashampoo_Snap_2016.11.08_11h29m46s_002_.png
> 
> rgds
> Chris


I must be doing something wrong as mine tasted nothing like the pub stuff. Not bad (for a k&k) but not like you get at the pub.

I suspect that if the real stuff tasted anything like mine or your kit brews they wouldn't sell very much.


----------



## Barge

pcmfisher said:


> I must be doing something wrong as mine tasted nothing like the pub stuff. Not bad (for a k&k) but not like you get at the pub.
> 
> I suspect that if the real stuff tasted anything like mine or your kit brews they wouldn't sell very much.


FTFY


----------



## Lionman

Tempted to do a kit again now to see if they are shit or not...


----------



## fungrel

Parks said:


> A quick read through this thread has me wondering about the "tinny taste" of kit brews. I wonder if it's excessive mineral content?
> 
> e.g., if I were to make a standard all grain batch, dehydrate it, then later re-hydrate it I would have doubled the mineral content of the beer from the water supply.



I partly agree. I've made extract brews from RO adjusted to pH 5.2 and I challenge anyone to pick that the beer was made from extract.

I think the "tinny taste" you're referring to is more a combination of different factors, and mineral content is only one facet of the overall picture.


----------



## Hangover68

Lionman said:


> Tempted to do a kit again now to see if they are shit or not...



I was tasting a mates Coopers IPA last week and i was surprised how good it was, nearly as good as my AG IPA.
I did a morgan's pilsner 3 weeks ago and its just started to condition properly but first tastes were disapointing, still early days for a pilsner so it should get better.


----------



## PaulG79

First time I tasted that Coopers IPA I didn't love it cos I'm more used to American IPA's and didn't realise the Coopers one was more UK style. But after I tasted a few UK IPA's from Dan's, wow, that Coopers kit is good. I couldn't pick much difference between it and some of the award winning older style UK ones.


----------



## david effer

megabyte said:


> So this has me stumped.
> 
> I’ve been brewing for about 8 years. I started with Coopers kits and I could never get them to taste even remotely good. It’s a miracle that I persevered with brewing after so much disappointment but thankfully when I moved to extracts (and all grain soon after) my beers became tasty and I’ve been brewing quite happily ever since.
> 
> Recently I brewed a few all grain batches of a Coopers Pale Ale clone. I re-cultured the yeast from a bottle of the Coopers beer and while my attempts didn’t taste exactly like the original, they tasted every bit as good.
> 
> Next up i thought why not get back to my roots and try a Coopers Australian Pale Ale can of goo to see if it would taste closer to the real deal (after all, Coopers should know how to make a brew that tastes like their own beer right?). I used a fairly fresh Can (from my LHBS), Brew Enhancer 2, rehydrated the kit yeast, sanitised everything, fermented with temp control and the result was something I hadn’t tasted or smelled in many years - shitty homebrew. It’s thin and cidery, the bubbles are big, the head dissipates quickly and it has a pungent stink just like all the kit beers I made when I was starting out. The taste is bland and it has that signature “bad homebrew” aftertaste. I aged it a few weeks in the keg and it didn’t help much.
> 
> OK so my first thought was that the yeast is bad. I’ve heard warnings about using the yeast that comes with cans of goo and I know Coopers uses an Ale/Lager blend with their Australian Pale Ale kit that’s completely different to the yeast they use in their commercial example.
> 
> So next I started again with a fresh Coopers Pale Ale Can and BE2, but this time I re-cultured a healthy pitch of real coopers yeast, the stuff that I’ve been using in my all-grain batches. The result - equally shitty homebrew. It’s got a slightly different character, but the signature stink, bad aftertaste, poor head and artificial bitterness are all the same. It’s exactly the kind of beer that gives homebrew a bad reputation.
> 
> So my AG batches turned out great but the kits turned out almost undrinkable (I can’t even palm them off to my in-laws). I’ve ruled out the yeast, the fermentation temperature, and serving (I kegged and force carbed them all). I don’t see anything in my process that would make the kits taste bad. My only remaining conclusion is that these Coopers can kits are just rubbish.
> 
> So here’s what’s got me beat… The staff at both of my LHBSs think that canned kits are great. There’s an entire coopers forum filled with people who think these kits are the duck’s nuts (including the Aussie Pale Ale kit). Heck, I’m posting this in a sub-forum of AHB that’s dedicated to kits and extracts and filled with brewers with far more experience than I have. I *must* be doing something wrong.
> 
> I am humbled by my repeated failure to brew decent beer with these kits and I really respect the knowledge amongst my fellow brewers on AHB. Is there something else I should try or am I beating a dead horse expecting these kits to taste like commercial quality beer?


try using filtered water,,we always used rainwater,until we installed filters,,it did improve the taste but then again i always brewed coopers pale ale kits and never had a complaint, even from mates who always drink comercial coopers


----------



## Kenf

I remember that “home brew” taste! I brew AG and I also get the Coopers monthly Craft brew kits - to try different tastes And occasionally I will put down a kit beer (Coopers/ Morgan’s/ what ever)
And I just don’t get those tastes anymore? 
I use either a Modern Coopers fermenter (the one without the airlock hole), a stainless fermenter and a converted 9 litre keg and nobody has ever picked up its home brew!
Maybe over time my techniques have improved.
But now I’m curious why?
Cheers


----------



## altone

Kenf said:


> I remember that “home brew” taste! I brew AG and I also get the Coopers monthly Craft brew kits - to try different tastes And occasionally I will put down a kit beer (Coopers/ Morgan’s/ what ever)
> And I just don’t get those tastes anymore?
> I use either a Modern Coopers fermenter (the one without the airlock hole), a stainless fermenter and a converted 9 litre keg and nobody has ever picked up its home brew!
> Maybe over time my techniques have improved.
> But now I’m curious why?
> Cheers



Same here, I'm currently drinking my first can brew for a very long time and it tastes fine.
A bit bland but fine otherwise - I need to do more additions to the next one.
The only thing I KNOW I'm doing differently now is removing Chlorine from the water.

After doing AG for a long time guess my whole process is a bit more precise, but that's the only actual conscious difference 
I've made to the process.
Always used bought yeast not use the kit one, added malt extract, temp control was the same etc. etc.


----------



## Barry

There is a significant difference between fresh extract/kits and extract/kits that have been sitting around too long. Often the “kit” taste comes from non fresh extract in my experience.


----------



## Kenf

I actually had a Great Northern clone off the tap last night, it was made from extract cans and it tasted fine. I think that because I don’t ever use cane sugar, tend to manage ferment temps better and make sure cleaning and sanitation is done properly makes a world of difference!
Plus I remember when I started brewing 25 or so years ago I tended not to wait the two weeks after bottling!


----------



## DrJez

Kits are sh!t Brewed them for years before going all grain and finally being satisfied

I think it's possibly the no boil. So many critters, it's ludicrous to even consider


----------



## unyeasted

motman said:


> I recently went back to kits due to having kids and no time for AG brewing. I had hoped they'd be better than they were in the old days but I had the same experience as you - not good! I have been thinking one possibility is that I'm using a carbon filter to remove chlorine and it may be harbouring infection I'd normally knock out with full boils.
> 
> Ducatiboy's comments are promising though, I'll persist a few more.



Interesting. I thought that once too.


----------



## chiefbrewlord

I've made some great kit brews. I always use temp control, lower end of fermentation reconditioned (16 deg.cel) for ales, DME, dextrose and never came sugar. Also dry hopping really adds so much additional complexity. I also hydrate my yeast before it goes in. That's my tips..


----------



## TheBigD

I just brewed a basic 21 litre brew with coopers Canadian blonde, BE3 and kit yeast (rehydrated) it fermented out at 21degrees and was finished in 4 days so I cold crashed for another 4 days then straight into the keg and forced carbed and it sat in the kegerator for a week( only because I went away), it has no twang and no green taste what so ever.
I was very surprized, I did taste it before I went away and it was just as drinkable then if not a little hazy but its crystal clear now.


----------



## westo2014

This thread is exactly where im at. A mate of mine has convinced me that he makes good kit beers without the twang etc so I'm making a return to kit brewing. all i got 20 years ago was mostly good old crappy twangy home brew.

What I'm taking from this tread is 

1. Water treatment, filtered and boiled 
2. Yeast change
3. Sanitation routines
4. Hops 
5. Fermenting temperature control 


This is in my mind, Additional free amino nitrogen to the wort (how to brew discusses the effects of a deficit in kits and extracts). 

Has anyone tried adding free amino nitrogen to their wort? Or kraeusening? 

Much appreciate your opinions im not going to give up.

I'll podt with results, once I get into it


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## jackgym

I used to get the dreaded "twang" 30 years ago.
But today brewing ales at 18 deg in a fridge using:
1 can Aust. Pale Ale 
1kg dry malt
25g each of Nelson Sauvin, Amarillo, Chinook hops
US-05 yeast
in a Coopers fermenter, I make a very tasty beer.
It's so good that commercial beer has no taste whatsoever.


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## koshari

jackgym said:


> I used to get the dreaded "twang" 30 years ago.
> But *today brewing ales at 18 deg in a fridge using:*
> 1 can Aust. Pale Ale
> 1kg dry malt
> 25g each of Nelson Sauvin, Amarillo, Chinook hops
> US-05 yeast
> in a Coopers fermenter, I make a very tasty beer.
> It's so good that commercial beer has no taste whatsoever.



the bolded bit hits the nail on the head,

jacks recipe is very typical of the brews i pump out,
i pretty much do a can of lager kit (really only to get some bitterness without having to do a boil) , 2500grams LME in 40l , and steep 500g of crystal malt for added body, nuttiness and head retention. i also throw in round 150g of dry hopping.

Heres an example, a mate of mine brews EXACTLY the same recipe as me ( he got it of me because he loves this recipe) . last year he had an issue with his temp controller and a batch got up to 25 degree. we normally keep it at 18. the difference was night and day, he ended up pouring that batch down the the drain. i really think you cannot stress enough how much difference good temp control makes.

another indicator that i go by, after a well brewed batch you will have hardly any krausen ring round the top of the fermenting vessel, IMO if there is an inch thick sludgy ring round the fermenter wall your yeast has gone off far to aggressively.


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## jackgym

koshari said:


> the bolded bit hits the nail on the head,
> 
> jacks recipe is very typical of the brews i pump out,
> i pretty much do a can of lager kit (really only to get some bitterness without having to do a boil) , 2500grams LME in 40l , and steep 500g of crystal malt for added body, nuttiness and head retention. i also throw in round 150g of dry hopping.
> 
> Heres an example, a mate of mine brews EXACTLY the same recipe as me ( he got it of me because he loves this recipe) . last year he had an issue with his temp controller and a batch got up to 25 degree. we normally keep it at 18. the difference was night and day, he ended up pouring that batch down the the drain. i really think you cannot stress enough how much difference good temp control makes.
> 
> another indicator that i go by, after a well brewed batch you will have hardly any krausen ring round the top of the fermenting vessel, IMO if there is an inch thick sludgy ring round the fermenter wall your yeast has gone off far to aggressively.


That's the effect of the constant temp. Years ago when the fermenter sat between, say, 15 and 30 degrees, the krausen sludge blew all over the top of the fermenter and out the airlock. (BTW I don't use an airlock now).


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## koshari

jackgym said:


> That's the effect of the constant temp. Years ago when the fermenter sat between, say, 15 and 30 degrees, the krausen sludge blew all over the top of the fermenter and out the airlock. (BTW I don't use an airlock now).


i still use the airlock basically just as a poor mans releif valve and because the hole is there, if it wasn’t i would prolly just not screw the lid as tight so any residual pressure could escape rather than splitting the fermenter. i could place a relief valve there i suppose but its the least of my concerns.


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## Grmblz

westo2014 said:


> This thread is exactly where im at. A mate of mine has convinced me that he makes good kit beers without the twang etc so I'm making a return to kit brewing. all i got 20 years ago was mostly good old crappy twangy home brew.
> 
> What I'm taking from this tread is
> 
> 1. Water treatment, filtered and boiled
> 2. Yeast change
> 3. Sanitation routines
> 4. Hops
> 5. Fermenting temperature control
> 
> 
> This is in my mind, Additional free amino nitrogen to the wort (how to brew discusses the effects of a deficit in kits and extracts).
> 
> Has anyone tried adding free amino nitrogen to their wort? Or kraeusening?
> 
> Much appreciate your opinions im not going to give up.
> 
> I'll podt with results, once I get into it



Join coopers club
Check their recipes and pick 3 or 4 (I like their 2013 and 2017 vintage clones)
Wait till the second week of the month (free shipping)
Order malts etc
Make beer TEMPERATURE controlled, fermenting fridge complete, able to heat and cool is under $200
Tip: order "extras" hops, yeast, grain etc before the extracts so all is ready to go.
This results in the freshest possible extract, also look at their recipe of the month for the easiest way to do a brew (comes complete with hops specialty yeast etc but at added cost)


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## Grmblz

@westo2014 alternatively https://www.kegland.com.au/ingredients/muntons-beer-kits/hand-crafted-range.html I have done the Belgian and smugglers, both very good, then there is https://www.kegland.com.au/ingredients/recipe-kits/extract-recipe-kits.html Dr Smurto is a can brewing legend


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## Jocky

Grmblz said:


> Join coopers club
> 
> Make beer TEMPERATURE controlled, fermenting fridge complete, able to heat and cool is under $200



Any idea where I'd get one of those?


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## koshari

Jocky said:


> Any idea where I'd get one of those?


Get the frige of gumtree or equiv for 50 odd bucks, grab a pad heater and a controller.

Controller example https://www.kegland.com.au/mkii-10-30amp-temperature-controller-heat-cool.html


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## Grmblz

Jocky said:


> Any idea where I'd get one of those?


As koshari says, fridge off gumtree, get an "all fridge" not fridge freezer, ideally a 350ltr plus to fit a fermzillasaurus conical in the future, plug the heat pad and fridge into the controller and bingo! Flat out at the moment but will pm you with a more sophisticated way to do it (pic's and stuff)


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## peterlonz

You don't say where you live but it's Oz then you really need to address promptly the issue of controlled fermentation temperature.
The best but more importantly, the easiest controller is the Inkbird brand, all the tricky wiring is done so it's sort of "plug & play" .
Then just ferment at about 19 C plus or minus maybe 1.5 C. 
Obviously you will need a decent size fridge & the best, but much harder to find are "no freezer" fridges.
There is an alternative, which I use, &* it's not as good*, & involves more monitoring by you. You buy a commercially made jacket for your fermentor. Mine cost about $100 from the local brew shop.
Now you just need a supply of frozen solid water filled plastic bottles. I have standardised on 2 &3 litre types. Don't overfill or the freezing water will burst the plastic. Typically I will put in 2 two litre bottles & monitor the temperature. BTW I hope you are using chilled water to get your wort down to pitch temp quickly.
Now from Ebay there are a variety of digital thermometers with stainless waterproof probes. I use aluminium adhesive tape to secure the probe about half way up on the outside. You need to be careful when handling the empty fermentor & not beak the lead to the probe. Now depending on what you buy these are dirt cheap & more than adequate in accuracy.
If you feel a bit "challenged" by these requirements, don't fret1 ASs more questions on this forum. Also I ecommend watching several YouTube videos posted by Craig who seems to present the material in a clear way.


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## westo2014

Thanks mate, just signed up 







Grmblz said:


> Join coopers club
> Check their recipes and pick 3 or 4 (I like their 2013 and 2017 vintage clones)
> Wait till the second week of the month (free shipping)
> Order malts etc
> Make beer TEMPERATURE controlled, fermenting fridge complete, able to heat and cool is under $200
> Tip: order "extras" hops, yeast, grain etc before the extracts so all is ready to go.
> This results in the freshest possible extract, also look at their recipe of the month for the easiest way to do a brew (comes complete with hops specialty yeast etc but at added cost)


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## Jocky

peterlonz said:


> You don't say where you live but it's Oz then you really need to address promptly the issue of controlled fermentation temperature.
> The best but more importantly, the easiest controller is the Inkbird brand, all the tricky wiring is done so it's sort of "plug & play" .
> Then just ferment at about 19 C plus or minus maybe 1.5 C.
> Obviously you will need a decent size fridge & the best, but much harder to find are "no freezer" fridges.
> There is an alternative, which I use, &* it's not as good*, & involves more monitoring by you. You buy a commercially made jacket for your fermentor. Mine cost about $100 from the local brew shop.
> Now you just need a supply of frozen solid water filled plastic bottles. I have standardised on 2 &3 litre types. Don't overfill or the freezing water will burst the plastic. Typically I will put in 2 two litre bottles & monitor the temperature. BTW I hope you are using chilled water to get your wort down to pitch temp quickly.
> Now from Ebay there are a variety of digital thermometers with stainless waterproof probes. I use aluminium adhesive tape to secure the probe about half way up on the outside. You need to be careful when handling the empty fermentor & not beak the lead to the probe. Now depending on what you buy these are dirt cheap & more than adequate in accuracy.
> If you feel a bit "challenged" by these requirements, don't fret1 ASs more questions on this forum. Also I ecommend watching several YouTube videos posted by Craig who seems to present the material in a clear way.



Thanks Peter. Yes, I'm acutely aware of the need for temp control, particularly as I'm in Adelaide. I'm also acutely aware of my lack of free space (rented unit, no garage/shed etc). I actually bought an inkbird last summer (still in its wrapping) before I went on a fridge hunt. I wasted a lot of time/petrol chasing down Gumtree/Facebook ads only to find that the big ones were too big and the small ones were too small for my standard Coopers FV. I'm now thinking along the lines of buying a new, small chest freezer as the external measurements are a fit (just!) for my understairs storage area. Have to pop into Good Guys or somewhere to take the internal measurements though.......


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## koshari

chest freezers have a lot of advantages but just beware that they do add a fair manual handling toll, i use one for my kegerator and wouldn’t want to be lifting anything heavier than a keg in and out of them. 

i can sympathise your fridge hunting however, whilst mines not perfect iam sticking with my 360 upside down, the negative is a freezer space underneath thats a bit of a waste of energy and space, the positive is that the fridge compartment bottom is the perfect height to fill out of into kegs.


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## Journeyman

Grmblz said:


> Join coopers club
> Check their recipes and pick 3 or 4 (I like their 2013 and 2017 vintage clones)
> Wait till the second week of the month (free shipping)


Where do I find info that 2nd week of month is free shipping? I look everywhere else because of the shipping costs. (low income so limited spend - the postage is extra goods)


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## Journeyman

I'm off to eat then do my first bottling. Mine has turned out pleasant to smell, tastes like beer and that's in spite of beginning with a temperature disaster - 1st night woke to a 36° FV.
I haven't read all the thread yet but one comment made me wonder - would it make a difference if the can is first added with either enhancer or LME to hot water before pouring it into the FV?
I did that - can't recall where I saw it, but the early comment sounds like the can was emptied directly into the FV.


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## koshari

Journeyman said:


> I'm off to eat then do my first bottling. Mine has turned out pleasant to smell, tastes like beer and that's in spite of beginning with a temperature disaster - 1st night woke to a 36° FV.
> I haven't read all the thread yet but one comment made me wonder - would it make a difference if the can is first added with either enhancer or LME to hot water before pouring it into the FV?
> I did that - can't recall where I saw it, but the early comment sounds like the can was emptied directly into the FV.


temperature isn't really critical until you pitch the yeast, then its very important.


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## Journeyman

koshari said:


> temperature isn't really critical until you pitch the yeast, then its very important.


See, I thought that but I was wondering why there is such a divide among kit brewers where some have no issues and some have every kit brew taste bad.
Seemed to me the only thing not talked about was how they set up the initial brew prior to pitching the yeast. 
I'm a newbie so I don't know if some use the can into hot water or others just add warm water to the contents they've poured into the FV.
The method I followed was to put the can upside down in hot water on the stove for a few minutes, open the bottom of the can and pour that into a couple of litres very hot water, mix with adds, pour into FV then bring to yeast temp with extra water up to the 23 L.
It occurred to me that maybe that initial high temp might do something to flavours?


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## Journeyman

Here's the temp thing again - I was reading about yeast starters and there's this...
"Bring your water to 170ºF and add your malt extract - if using LME take the pot or flask off the burner to avoid scorching of your malt. Stir well to dissolve and slowly bring to a boil. Boil for 10
minutes then cool as quickly as possible below 90ºF"

So why are they wanting the extract brought to boiling and if it applies to this, does it also apply to a kit? Not being smartarse, just wanting to learn.
Could it be the reason some people have no problems and some have bad tasting kits?


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## i-a-n

Journeyman said:


> Here's the temp thing again - I was reading about yeast starters and there's this...
> "Bring your water to 170ºF and add your malt extract - if using LME take the pot or flask off the burner to avoid scorching of your malt. Stir well to dissolve and slowly bring to a boil. Boil for 10
> minutes then cool as quickly as possible below 90ºF"
> 
> So why are they wanting the extract brought to boiling and if it applies to this, does it also apply to a kit? Not being smartarse, just wanting to learn.
> Could it be the reason some people have no problems and some have bad tasting kits?




No need to boil a kit can, just sit it in hot water for a few minutes to make pouring it out easier.
I put mine into the tub of sterilising solution along with all the other kit I'll be using, can opener, stirring spoon, syphon etc etc.
I make more solution than necessary as I use some of it for washing out the fermenter and kegs before getting started on the job.

Once all is clean, open the can, pour into the fermenter, add the fermantables, flush out the can with hot water from the kettle, mix, make up to the required volume, check the temperature and pitch the yeast. Seal her up and away you go.

A fridge something like this (I picked a couple up for about $50 each, take out the shelves and pop in a decent bit of ply and 2 fermenters fit very nicely.) is VERY useful in conjunction with a temp controller (and possibly a heating belt, although keeping the brew cool is the worry here in N Qld.)

Don't be in a hurry, when fermentation stops, I always allow another week in the fermenter before kegging. Just be sure to be splashing plenty of sterilising solution all over the place at every part of the process.
I hope that helps.


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## Journeyman

i-a-n said:


> No need to boil a kit can, just sit it in hot water for a few minutes to make pouring it out easier.


You may have misunderstood. 
ATM I don't think I have an issue - particularly not a sanitising issue. This is about how there seem to be 2 groups - 1 that has no decent kits beers and 1 that has good beers from kits.
I doubt very much the boiling mentioned in the 'Starter Yeast' quote I gave is related to sterilising as the LME is already in 170° (77°C) water. Not much around the house will live through that.
So it has to be something to do with the sugars and/or malt process.

So my posts were about wondering if maybe the very hot water/boiling of the LME might be the difference between a good taste beer and a bad one.


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## Grmblz

Journeyman said:


> Where do I find info that 2nd week of month is free shipping? I look everywhere else because of the shipping costs. (low income so limited spend - the postage is extra goods)


If you have joined their club you should get an email notification, otherwise just check their website. How it works is they release a ROTM (recipe of the month) in fact they release two just click the "recipes" tab at the top of their home page, which are complete kits with extract, hops, grains and yeast. These kits are free postage and at the same time they offer free postage on orders over $80 or $100, I have no idea how they choose the amount it just varies, as does the actual release date although it's usually somewhere between the 10th and 15th of the month. The kits are pretty good value if you are into specialty grains and yeasts/hops, but if you just want can and kilo (please make the kilo DME or LME not sugar) then the free shipping is pretty much a can for free. When the ROTM sells out they revert to $15 flat rate shipping until the next release.


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## pcmfisher

Journeyman said:


> You may have misunderstood.
> ATM I don't think I have an issue - particularly not a sanitising issue. *This is about how there seem to be 2 groups - 1 that has no decent kits beers and 1 that has good beers from kits.*
> I doubt very much the boiling mentioned in the 'Starter Yeast' quote I gave is related to sterilising as the LME is already in 170° (77°C) water. Not much around the house will live through that.
> So it has to be something to do with the sugars and/or malt process.
> 
> So my posts were about wondering if maybe the very hot water/boiling of the LME might be the difference between a good taste beer and a bad one.



I think it has a lot to do with personal taste and what one is used to.
I have tried many home brews that the person brewing it says it is the best, only to find it virtually undrinkable.


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## Journeyman

I cannot answer as to that, being I am just starting the journey.
But if it IS just taste, wouldn't there be far more disagreement about the various recipes and kits if one's tastes were so divergent to that of others who profess to enjoy the same kind of beer?
We've all come from similar pub lives so the preferred beers should all be within a small section of the spectrum - it seems strange that one person would have such antipathy towards ALL the kits in a chosen range while another, presumably with similar taste spectrum, would find them all OK.


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## koshari

Journeyman said:


> Here's the temp thing again - I was reading about yeast starters and there's this...
> "Bring your water to 170ºF and add your malt extract - if using LME take the pot or flask off the burner to avoid scorching of your malt. Stir well to dissolve and slowly bring to a boil. Boil for 10
> minutes then cool as quickly as possible below 90ºF"
> 
> So why are they wanting the extract brought to boiling and if it applies to this, does it also apply to a kit? Not being smartarse, just wanting to learn.
> Could it be the reason some people have no problems and some have bad tasting kits?



firstly re- the 10 min boil, this instruction didnt include the addition of hops by any-chance? it sounds like it could be related to bittering. you are correct with regards to sanitising ( or more accurately pasteurising) with the 77deg temp. (fwiw i dont bother pasteurising LME or goop.) 

a lot of the ordinary beers produced from kits are based on the old can & kilo recipe and poor temp control as the instructions pretty much state 24 is fine, they are leaning to the conservative side of getting a beginner to drop a batch with less risk of an infection.


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## koshari

pcmfisher said:


> I think it has a lot to do with personal taste and what one is used to.
> I have tried many home brews that the person brewing it says it is the best, only to find it virtually undrinkable.


this is also true for commercially brewed beers. gotta say there were times when i wasnt a big fan of guiness or IPAs however i pretty much just do a dark and an AIPA these days. had a couple of blokes round last night, one couldnt stand the AIPA but loved the dark ale, the other bloke loved both.

iam not a massive fan of these outback jack, great northern full on dextrose styles but if theres nothing else they sure beat coca cola or VB.

but a poorly fermented batch that got too hot and tastes like bananas or an infected batch with vinegar taint iam sure all but the saddest alcos would frown upon.


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