# Gelatine Has No Fining Ability



## Bribie G (2/11/10)

Not picking a personal fight with anybody on AHB 

In a recent post on another thread an opinion was expressed that gelatine has no fining ability, backed up by a link to a site that examined beer clearing methods. 
However I'm sure that you would agree that gathering and demostrating primary evidence, in this case, is almost trivial and would consist of just trying the stuff out, and then seeing how the mop flops, how the cow sits in the cabbage patch, how the cookie crumbles or whatever cliche turns you on. 

Yorkshire bitter, a batch of gelatine (Ward's brand from supermarket, rounded tsp in Pyrex jug with around 80 ml of kettle water) prepared as normal and most tipped into keg, but a small appropriate amount reserved for a 1.25L PET which will take some of the excess beer from secondary, the other 1.25L PET to be filled with pure beer out of secondary, no gelatine. 







It begins. 

If at the end of the day the gelatine is no F use then I'm more than happy - toss it in the bin. I'm pretty sure that the usage here is quite typical of what most home brewers would do, so lets see what days 2 3 4 5 come up with, will post


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## DUANNE (2/11/10)

as usual an interesting experiment bribie. my thoughts are as a non gelatine user that as far as my understanding goes the gelatine will just speed up a process that time will do any way. so it will be good to see wich beer clears quicker, wich beer carbs quicker and wich if any looks clearer in a months time.would love to know if i really am mising something that could improve my beer in the long run.


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## RdeVjun (2/11/10)

A practical and worthwhile experiment IMO, perhaps of far more value than a 10 page thread of armchair hypothesising, nitpicking, contextual errors and if we're really lucky, the inevitable shitfight... (just not half as much fun... ) So, great stuff BribieG!

It is probably immaterial, but what yeast?

I promised once to try agar as an alternate fining agent, that was about three months ago but I haven't fined with gelatine or agar since! That's mainly because I don't really care a great deal about clarity, particularly in house ales as I presume that one is, and I just take what I get. I'm probably getting a bit lazy as well. I realise that's just my own preference and circumstances, obviously everyone is different. :icon_cheers:


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## barls (2/11/10)

heres the big one that effects gelatine and thats the temp that they are at. from memory it works better when its colder.


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## manticle (2/11/10)

Considering doing something like this myself bribie. Good idea but you need a control sample as well.

Do one with davis/ward whatever, one without finings and one with HBS type finings. Of these split again into two batches - one room temp and one cold conditioned.

I realise that's potentially a bit of beer to waste on tests but smaller bottles would work just as well.


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## rendo (2/11/10)

FIGHT....FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!

I've tagged this topic, will be watching with interest

rendo



RdeVjun said:


> A practical and worthwhile experiment IMO, perhaps of far more value than a 10 page thread of armchair hypothesising, nitpicking, contextual errors and if we're really lucky, the inevitable shitfight... (just not half as much fun... ) So, great stuff BribieG!


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## mwd (2/11/10)

BEERHOG said:


> as usual an interesting experiment bribie. my thoughts are as a non gelatine user that as far as my understanding goes the gelatine will just speed up a process that time will do any way.



+1 I think gelatine speeds up the whole clearing process into a few days instead of a week or so without.

Only problem I have seen with gelatine is the fluffy bottoms in the bottle which are very easy to disturb when pouring.

Interested to see the outcome of the controlled experiment. Don't know about the temperature thing as I have to condition all my beers at about 28C normal room temp here. They only go in the fridge at least 24hrs before drinking. No chance of lagering without buying another fridge and temperature control.


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## Bribie G (2/11/10)

RdeV it's 1469
Barls it's at ambient which is probably normal for most home brewers.

Won't be responding further to this thread except to post a pic per day. 
signing out :icon_cheers:

edit spelinnn


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## K&K (2/11/10)

testing rather than hypothesizing? that's crazy and won't go down well as a conversational topic after a few brews....

Actually very interested in the outcome.


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## joecast (2/11/10)

Tropical_Brews said:


> +1 I think gelatine speeds up the whole clearing process into a few days instead of a week or so without.
> 
> Only problem I have seen with gelatine is the fluffy bottoms in the bottle which are very easy to disturb when pouring.


Thats the biggest difference I've noticed too. Any keg fined with gelatin needs to remain as still as possible or that nasty fluffy sediment is right in the glass. 
Anyway, great work bribieg. Will be interested in the results.
Joe


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## felten (2/11/10)

Isn't 1469 highly flocculant though? It might be better to test with a low floccer, like a kolsch maybe


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## DUANNE (2/11/10)

felten said:


> Isn't 1469 highly flocculant though? It might be better to test with a low floccer, like a kolsch maybe




thought the same thing myself. maybe us 05 wich can hang around like a pita and most brewers use at one time or another? ive also found with pommy yeast in general that they still attenuate well after dropping clear. still want to see the results though, hanging on with baited breath.


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## Phoney (2/11/10)

I gelatin & polyclar every beer I brew (other than wheat beers & stouts)

Using Davis brand Gelatin, using the exact same method every time, CC for the same period of time etc. I recently brewed two APA's using 1056 and both have come out as cloudy as CPA. My last 10 brews in a row I have been able to see through clear as daylight.

I've come to a conclusion that beer clarity has far more to do with yeast rather than use or non use of gelatin. 

But with the beers which are clear I never get chill haze anymore therefore im not giving up on using Polyclar.


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## rotten (2/11/10)

Test away then brewers, Bribie has chosen his test. I However will back his inevitable results that it makes beer clearer & quicker from personal experience (at cooled temp). I have a brew catalogue of 8 brews used with gelatine, and 5 remaining pre-gelatine. The difference is unequivocal. I can see things through my beer that no man has seen before, clarity.
Cheers


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## brett mccluskey (3/11/10)

rotten said:


> Test away then brewers, Bribie has chosen his test. I However will back his inevitable results that it makes beer clearer & quicker from personal experience (at cooled temp). I have a brew catalogue of 8 brews used with gelatine, and 5 remaining pre-gelatine. The difference is unequivocal. I can see things through my beer that no man has seen before, clarity.
> Cheers


 haven't used a post boil fining agent for many,many years as my beer clears quite well with a settling period/cold storage,so this is only a quote and not my personal opinion .Zymurgy,Vol8,No 5,P48."Gelatin: One of the original homebrew clarifiers,gelatin is a positively charged protein derived from pork or beef skin and bones.While results are not overwhelmingly successful when used alone.gelatin reduces polyphenolic compounds(astringent or bitter husk and hop tannins)by attracting these negatively charged compounds,along with yeast cells,and drawing them to the bottom of the bottle or fermenter.To remove positively charged haze- causing proteins.commercial brewers and vintners often use gelatin in conjunction with negatively charged silicon dioxide.Together they form a dense coagulum resulting in rapid clarification.Optimum use of gelatin is a 1.5% solution(1.5g in 98.5ml of water)It's not uncommon in the brewing industry for some clarifiers to be used in conjunction with others.
For instance,Bentonite can be used 48 hours prior to gelatin fining to reduce haze-causing proteins." Hope this helps the discussion :icon_cheers:


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## Steve (3/11/10)

rotten said:


> I However will back his inevitable results that it makes beer clearer & quicker from personal experience (at cooled temp).
> Cheers



Me too....I trialled a brand new filter from a bloke here in Canberra last year with the idea of buying it. Did one keg with filter the other with gelatine. I didnt buy the filter.
Cheers
Steve


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## Bizier (3/11/10)

I am sorry if I am hijacking your thread Bribie, good experiment... but I can't see why everyone gelatines in their final vessel rather than in their fermentation vessel prior to racking... I just leave it clear up for a tic, combined with a CC then rack clean beer over to either keg, or bulk prime vessel.


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## Fourstar (3/11/10)

felten said:


> Isn't 1469 highly flocculant though? It might be better to test with a low floccer, like a kolsch maybe



As an example from experience merely days ago, can tell you that 3068 weihenstephan yeast drops bright after around 4 weeks undisturbed in the fridge.

SWMBO poured me one the other day and by appearance, i thought it was my kentucky common. diamond bright and not a tough of haze.

I also find as an interesting point that my filtered beers tend to display a mild haze typically throughout the life of its cycle in the keg. Even with appropriate polyclar addition. very very mild, but not diamond bright.


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## MarkBastard (3/11/10)

Steve said:


> Me too....I trialled a brand new filter from a bloke here in Canberra last year with the idea of buying it. Did one keg with filter the other with gelatine. I didnt buy the filter.
> Cheers
> Steve



I'm the opposite. Polyclar - Filter - Keg - Read a news paper through your beer


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## Thirsty Boy (3/11/10)

Fourstar said:


> As an example from experience merely days ago, can tell you that 3068 weihenstephan yeast drops bright after around 4 weeks undisturbed in the fridge.
> 
> SWMBO poured me one the other day and by appearance, i thought it was my kentucky common. diamond bright and not a tough of haze.
> 
> I also find as an interesting point that my filtered beers tend to display a mild haze typically throughout the life of its cycle in the keg. Even with appropriate polyclar addition. very very mild, but not diamond bright.



Use a little more polyclar and it will most likely go away. Also a sign that you are letting in a bit more oxygen than you might ideally. The same haze will most likely be there in the majority of your non filtered beers too... its just that they aren't bright enough so that you notice it.


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## plaidpaint (3/11/10)

My LHBS told me that commercial finings are gelatin. Just in a different package. I normally take what they tell me with a grain of salt, but I'm surprised that they would give away that particular secret if it wasn't true, considering they can make money selling finings, and not gelatin.

Also, agar is essentially gelatin as well, derived from seaweed, rather than animal byproducts, so would presumably create a similar result, but be vegetarian friendly  Although if you use the same agar that you're using to slant yeast, then it might have nutrients mixed in, which might confuse the issue.


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## Fourstar (3/11/10)

plaidpaint said:


> Also, agar is essentially gelatin as well, derived from seaweed, rather than animal byproducts, so would presumably create a similar result, but be vegetarian friendly  Although if you use the same agar that you're using to slant yeast, then it might have nutrients mixed in, which might confuse the issue.



Agar is negativly charged much like yeast cells are so it will repel (or so ive read), gelatin is + charged so it will attract yeast cells to improve the flocculation rate. Agar may be better suited to kettle finings where the pH is higher and work on polyphenols? I dont know enough about it to answer fully but with it being neg charged it shouldnt work on yeast. The only thing it will be doing is 'gelling' it on the bottom of the keg/fermenter.


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## MHB (3/11/10)

Active discussion, is for me what AHB should be all about, certainly not interested in a fight nor do I see any point.

Before anyone starts one I never said "Gelatine" has no fining ability. Gelatine is the name of a family of proteins derived from the connective tissue of animals (mostly).
Sugar describes a family of over 2.6 million known sugars; Gelatine describes family of proteins. Some of these are very effective at fining, some have no fining ability, similarly some sugars are fermentable some aren't.

My belief is that the best fining is Isinglass, specifically manufactured to fine beer.
Some forms of Bovine Gelatine (like those sold at HBS's and supermarkets) are reasonably effective but by way of comparison the standard HBS fining usage recommendation is 5g/25 L, Isinglass is 0.2-1g/25 L, so the manufactures believe that Isinglass is 5-25 time more effective.
When it comes to supermarket gelatine my contention is that you have no idea how effective it is going to be, if it happens to be made from pig skin, it won't work at all, if it's made from cow hoofs, it might be as effective as HBS fining, it will never be as effective as Isinglass. Isinglass is the only gelatine that works on Chill Haze, so it can be used to improve the cold conditioning/lagering speed of beer.

Home brew shop finings cost about a dollar, Isinglass less than fifty cents per batch, even if supermarket gelatine was free I wouldn't use it simply because I won't risk a beer with 4-5 hours work and tens of dollars worth if ingredients to save small change.

MHB


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## Phoney (3/11/10)

Good post MHB, have added some isinglass to my shopping list. Will give that a go :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (3/11/10)

aarrghh no photo today as the batteries just karked it so will post tomorrow. So far they are both clearing out nicely and are about neck and neck. 
I'll be doing a US-05 brew on Friday, so that's a good point re the strain of yeast.

Also I'll get some Isinglass again and store the bugger properly this time so it doesn't end up smelling like mullet guts. Isinglass definitely worked great in kegs and seemed to remove chill haze as well in the ones I did without Polyclar. So three way test next time for sure, the current one is more of a prelim. investigation. And yes I've always used Mckenzies this is the first lot of Wards so, like MHB says, who knows where they source it :icon_cheers:


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## Batz (3/11/10)

BribieG said:


> who knows where they source it :icon_cheers:




From the boiled bones, skins and tendons of animals, if you want to go back that far. 


Enjoying the thread Bribie, nice to see a real comparison, good stuff :icon_cheers: 

Batz


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## Nick JD (3/11/10)

MHB said:


> When it comes to supermarket gelatine my contention is that you have no idea how effective it is going to be...



Yeah I do. Wards Gelatine from Coles works perfectly.


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## manticle (3/11/10)

Bit the bullet and just ordered finings AND Isinglass from GG. Will do my own testing, similar to Bribie but may even compare ward's, Mckenzies and Davis as well. Will compare with control sample (containing no finings) at room temp and a batch of each at CC temps.


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## thesunsettree (3/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'm the opposite. Polyclar - Filter - Keg - Read a news paper through your beer




i agree, filtering is so friggin easy its not even close to funny. only the initail outlay for the budget concsious could possibly come into play otherwise filter if you can, absolute piece of piss and beers as clear as water (so to speak :icon_cheers: )

matt


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## megs80 (3/11/10)

plaidpaint said:


> Also, agar is essentially gelatin as well, derived from seaweed, rather than animal byproducts, so would presumably create a similar result, but be vegetarian friendly  Although if you use the same agar that you're using to slant yeast, then it might have nutrients mixed in, which might confuse the issue.



Agar may not work as it sets at a lot higher temp than gelatin. Though Ive never used it in beer, Ive made gels which have started to set at over 30 degrees. My guess is that it wouldnt mix properly before it drop out.

Ill be keen to see how the results from this tread turn out.


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## gregs (4/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'm the opposite. Polyclar - Filter - Keg - Read a news paper through your beer




Did you use this technique with the beer in your awful signature, kid photo because isnt that clear! The kid would obviously be a champ Im sure but on AHB its an awful photo. :icon_vomit:


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## yardy (4/11/10)

all good points i'm sure, but who ever said beer had to be clear ?

i can "read the paper" through mine via koppafloc and gelatine btw.


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## manticle (4/11/10)

Yeast in suspension affects flavour too so fining has more of a point than just making beer look pretty or be used as a reading device.

I have no doubt you know this so I feel slightly stupid saying it but the point should be made.


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## yardy (4/11/10)

manticle said:


> Yeast in suspension affects flavour too so fining has more of a point than just making beer look pretty or be used as a reading device.
> 
> I have no doubt you know this so I feel slightly stupid saying it but the point should be made.



and you've alerted Coopers i hope.


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## fasty73 (4/11/10)

Gelatine has no finning ability, well thats just NOT fine....get it finnings..fine..get it...oh why do I bother?!


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## DUANNE (4/11/10)

fasty73 said:


> oh why do I bother?!




good question


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## manticle (4/11/10)

yardy said:


> and you've alerted Coopers i hope.



Just saying it has an impact on flavour - for better or worse that's up to the individual and how they enjoy their beer.

For the record I prefer my coopers unrolled and to leave the sediment behind in my bottled beer.

My point is just that it's more than cosmetics, not that one or the other is better or that all beer should be clear.


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## Rodolphe01 (4/11/10)

Probably been covered, but i'd be keen to see the side by side chilled for a few days, when i've used gelatine i've always crash chilled, and i have been left with a cloudy amber jelly on the bottom of the fermenter. I assume that is the crap dropped out of suspension by the gelatine.

Perhaps let it sit at ambient for whatever time to see how it clears.... then bung them both in fridge to see what difference that makes.


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## gregs (4/11/10)

Anyhow looking forward to some pics.


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## fasty73 (4/11/10)

BEERHOG said:


> good question



I think it's because it's fun, just like HB is meant to be, this site should have some fun in it aswell.


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## yardy (4/11/10)

yardy said:


> and you've alerted Coopers i hope.






manticle said:


> Just saying it has an impact on flavour - for better or worse that's up to the individual and how they enjoy their beer.
> 
> For the record I prefer my coopers unrolled and to leave the sediment behind in my bottled beer.
> 
> My point is just that it's more than cosmetics, not that one or the other is better or that all beer should be clear.




fence sitting as usual manticle..


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## Nick JD (4/11/10)

The amount of yeast needed to affect clarity is microscopic. Unless you're swirling a hefe and the yeast taste is required I don't reckon there's a difference between a bit hazy and crystal clear on the tastebuds. 

Mud ... yeah, that tastes of yeast.


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## manticle (4/11/10)

yardy said:


> fence sitting as usual manticle..



What exactly do you want me to do? Vote for the yeast or against it? Put my hand up as part of the anti yeast brigade?

Have a pointless online argument with someone I generally have no problem with?

I'm not fence sitting, I'm stating that finings do more than make a beer look pretty. Whether you like that in your beer or not is up to you. Thought it was pretty clear the first time around but if you feel the need to pick shit through it then maybe try it on with someone else.

I use finings because of their impact on the final flavour in my beer that I perceive when I don't fine or use other means of dropping out yeast like CC. If making something like a hefe I don't bother because it's part of the profile. I still try and reduce the sediment that makes it into my glass.

It was a pretty simple original statement really.


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## Silo Ted (4/11/10)

Time out, children. This is a pretty good thread, and many of us are hoping to see the side by side comparisons, and associated discussion relating to the topic.


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## MHB (4/11/10)

I would rather drink Hefeweizen than Crystal, but I dont want my Pilsner cloudy thanks.

M


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## bum (4/11/10)

Silo Ted said:


> Time out, children. This is a pretty good thread, and many of us are hoping to see the side by side comparisons, and associated discussion relating to the topic.


Which might very well still occur regardless of what Yardy and Manticle have to say to one another in the meantime (and what you might have to say about what they say).


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## fasty73 (4/11/10)

I use brigalow finnings in all my brews so I can't compare it with not using finnings. I can tell you that every beer I drink is crystal clear.


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## Bribie G (4/11/10)

Sorry couldn't get out today to get duracells for a piccie, been laid low with a dose of the Taliban Tummy,post tomorrow. Haven't looked at the bottles today - I'm sure they are happily doing their thing. :icon_cheers:


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## Acasta (4/11/10)

First AG brew i made was solid. Couldn't see through at all. But i did add all break material into fermenter...
After using gelatine i noticed a big difference, however, i didn't add break material. Doesn't really help...


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## lastdrinks (4/11/10)

MHB said:


> Isinglass is the only gelatine that works on Chill Haze, so it can be used to improve the cold conditioning/lagering speed of beer.



It might be my 6th finger of scotch but if this is true i am going to start using isinglass. I have found my ward's gelatine useage to be ok, but chill haze fairly common. Is isinglass the perfect symptom treatment of my average brewing practices. :icon_cheers:


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## Ivan Other One (4/11/10)

After not using it, then trying it, and the not using it again,,, I am now drinking a beautifully clear beer that has 150g of crystal 50 stteped @ 20 mins in it.

The big difference is letting the wurt ferment for two weeks, and chuck out the sediment reducer thingy that fits in the tap.

good brew allright, took three goes to edit this..... :icon_drool2:


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## hoppinmad (4/11/10)

gregs said:


> Did you use this technique with the beer in your awful signature, kid photo because isnt that clear! The kid would obviously be a champ Im sure but on AHB its an awful photo. :icon_vomit:



+1


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## yardy (4/11/10)

manticle said:


> What exactly do you want me to do? Vote for the yeast or against it? Put my hand up as part of the anti yeast brigade?
> 
> Have a pointless online argument with someone I generally have no problem with?
> 
> ...




that's better mate :icon_cheers:


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## thesunsettree (4/11/10)

gregs said:


> Did you use this technique with the beer in your awful signature, kid photo because isn't that clear! The kid would obviously be a champ I'm sure but on AHB it's an awful photo. :icon_vomit:




- 1. i hope you never change it mark, its a pisser of a photo  .

matt


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## manticle (4/11/10)

yardy said:


> that's better mate :icon_cheers:



Ya mum


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## yardy (4/11/10)

manticle said:


> Ya mum




ya sister


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## manticle (4/11/10)

Is close friends with the chick in your avatar


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## QldKev (4/11/10)

hey that's my mum in Yardy's avatar 

QldKev


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## fasty73 (4/11/10)

Settle boys!!! mmmmmmmmmm boobies!!!!!!


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## pk.sax (4/11/10)

On a serious note about filtered beer, the barman at "unnamed" pub in Carlton had a few bottles of (I forget but I think it was) Hargreaves kellerbier. Or whoever makes kellerbier around here. The filtered stuff still tasted OK but it was NOTHING special at all. Had lost it's effect and feel completely. Some styles just demand to be drunk cloudy.

This might even be a bread eater's thing. I like very wheaty, yeasty strong smelling bread and also yeasty beer. It's definitely a style and individual preference thing.

wrt homebrew, well.... I leave 1-2 fingers of beer back in my bottles to limit my yeast intake. I don't fancy gout anymore after having bloating cuz some extreme HB drinking sprees.

Oh, and I've noticed that cider tastes better separated from the yeast. I'm almost tempted to figure out a force carving method to improve my cider.


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## hoohaaman (4/11/10)

thesunsettree said:


> - 1. i hope you never change it mark, its a pisser of a photo  .
> 
> matt




Every mother think their kid looks good.

+1 HOPPINMAD


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## Thirsty Boy (5/11/10)

practicalfool said:


> Oh, and I've noticed that cider tastes better separated from the yeast. I'm almost tempted to figure out a force carving method to improve my cider.



I've been known to filter & keg a cider... But mostly just use finings in the kegs. I like the flavor contributed to the cider by aging "on lees" but like you, don't like it all that much when actual yeast sediment makes it into the glass.

I have (and one day will get around to using) some of those sediment remover devices, where you store your bottles upside down and the yeast falls into a little chamber that you can then remove... The plan is to make methode traditional type ciders, aged on lees, then riddled to get every last bit of yeast up into the sediment remover. Get the sediment remover off as a replacement for disgorgement, add some dosage and re-cap/cork. No need for the gear required for neck freezing.


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## Bribie G (5/11/10)

Finally got out





Well, cleared out nicely and no discernable difference (finings on the left, no finings on the right).
So that's test #1 out of the way. I'll do the same with the APA I'm brewing today, and that's going to be on US-05 so I'll see what gelatine does to a poorly floccing yeast. I'll keep the current bottles for a couple more weeks and see if the gelatine one gets a fluffy bum compared to the other.


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## QldKev (5/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Finally got out
> 
> 
> Well, cleared out nicely and no discernable difference (finings on the left, no finings on the right).
> So that's test #1 out of the way. I'll do the same with the APA I'm brewing today, and that's going to be on US-05 so I'll see what gelatine does to a poorly floccing yeast. I'll keep the current bottles for a couple more weeks and see if the gelatine one gets a fluffy bum compared to the other.




Is it me, or does the one on the right actually have less haze?

QldKev


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## Bribie G (5/11/10)

I was sort of thinking that when I saw the photo, just took them out of my 'comp cupboard' where I'm storing them and yes the non-fined one is a tiny tad clearer :blink:


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## Bribie G (8/11/10)

After another 3 days the non-fined is clear as a bell, the fined is just slightly slightly hazy. Bloody hell :blink: 

Arr Mr Frodo, well there's a turn up for the books and no mistake, if this were a batch of my old Gaffer's home brew I reckon he'd be fair worritin' <_< 

I'm pitching an APA with a good dose of US-05 in about half an hour from now, so I'll bump this in a couple of weeks. I'll have enough left over after kegging to do a much more extensive test, I'll grab some isinglass and an airtight jar and gel drying sachet while I'm at it as I had good results with the last lot before it turned to mullet gut. :icon_cheers:


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## Lecterfan (8/11/10)

Keep it up Bribie, this is awesome to keep track of (and not have to actually particpiate in haha). :icon_cheers:


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## Paul H (8/11/10)

BribieG said:


> After another 3 days the non-fined is clear as a bell, the fined is just slightly slightly hazy. Bloody hell :blink:
> 
> Arr Mr Frodo, well there's a turn up for the books and no mistake, if this were a batch of my old Gaffer's home brew I reckon he'd be fair worritin' <_<
> 
> I'm pitching an APA with a good dose of US-05 in about half an hour from now, so I'll bump this in a couple of weeks. I'll have enough left over after kegging to do a much more extensive test, I'll grab some isinglass and an airtight jar and gel drying sachet while I'm at it as I had good results with the last lot before it turned to mullet gut. :icon_cheers:



Was there any discussion at the ANHC about finings or commercial products used?

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


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## beerdrinkingbob (8/11/10)

Another great experiment Bribie :beerbang:


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## Aus_Rider_22 (8/11/10)

barls said:


> heres the big one that effects gelatine and thats the temp that they are at. from memory it works better when its colder.



I went through reading this thread and thought the exact thing, and to my surprise not alot has been said about the temperature. From reading and following advice given on AHB articles, finings are added to cold primary or cold secondary and left in while cold conditioning.

Kind of off-topic but I recently went on holidays and I left an Amber Ale cold condition in the fermenter for a total of 3.5 weeks. Usually no more than 7-10days clearing and cold conditioning. I checked it and it was VERY clear and that was without finings. I've read time+cc'ing is the easiest way to clear a beer and it has proved it to me! :icon_cheers:


----------



## WarmBeer (8/11/10)

Paul H said:


> Was there any discussion at the ANHC about finings or commercial products used?
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> Paul



Thirsty Boy took us through a session based on results from some personal experimentation with various fining rates (0 - 100ppm finings).

For his particular experiment, the optimum fining rate was between the 20ppm and the 60ppm (he unfortunately dropped the 40ppm sample during the experiment), but this demonstrated there is not a linear relationship between finings and clarity.

His biggest caveat was that there is no clear cut "best rate of finings", as it is dependant on too many factors: gravity, grist composition, filter bed, moon phase, etc. 

You need to build a best guesstimate for a particular beer on a particular system. YMMV.


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## Bribie G (12/11/10)

Inspired by another thread that's popped up, the results for the two bottles are that they are now both crystal clear. I pitched a US-05 brew yesterday and will repeat the exercise. Also I used Wards Gelatine which I hadn't done before, I'll pick up some McKenzies and see what happens as well - maybe McKenzies is made from the correct hooves or snouts or something :icon_drool2:


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## Thirsty Boy (12/11/10)

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> I went through reading this thread and thought the exact thing, and to my surprise not alot has been said about the temperature. From reading and following advice given on AHB articles, finings are added to cold primary or cold secondary and left in while cold conditioning.
> 
> Kind of off-topic but I recently went on holidays and I left an Amber Ale cold condition in the fermenter for a total of 3.5 weeks. Usually no more than 7-10days clearing and cold conditioning. I checked it and it was VERY clear and that was without finings. I've read time+cc'ing is the easiest way to clear a beer and it has proved it to me! :icon_cheers:



very common misconception... temperature does not really matter to finings and in fact they will drop yeast faster in room temperature wort than in 4C wort.

You _do_ need your beer cold for Isinglass to have any effect on Chill Haze.

But given that no one is claiming that gelatin can fine out chill haze, and that temperature doesn't effect the performance of finings on the stuff that gelatin might be able to help remove, yeast. Then cold makes no essentially no difference, or in fact might make it slower.

Stokes Law - and wort is at its densest at 4C


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## Silo Ted (12/11/10)

BribieG said:


> the results for the two bottles are that they are now both crystal clear.



Can't improve on crystal clear. :icon_cheers: So round one of these tests so far indicate that in the conditions and recipe you chose, the finings did nothing of benefit. 

My money's on similar results with the S05, given enough time in the bottle. 

Can you report on the difference in amount, and also the compaction, of sediment in the bottle?


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## winkle (12/11/10)

Silo Ted said:


> (snip)
> Can you report on the difference in amount, and also the compaction, of sediment in the bottle?



Hmmm, that is where I'd expect any difference to occur.
Bribie?


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## felten (12/11/10)

Yah, fluffy bottoms suck.


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## Bribie G (12/11/10)

After years of warning about fluffy bottoms, the sediment in both bottles is hiding in the little wells at the bottom of the PETs and sticking like shit to a blanket. Hey Winkle I'll send the fined bottle up to the case swap for you to have for your very own :wub: , Florian is collecting my case on the way through. 

I'll change my entry to Yorkshire Red, as the Helles didn't happen ( waiting for my RO system before I did any more lagers)

On topic I reckon that Wards didn't do a bloody thing, will definitely try a four way test next time with the US-05

NO finings
Wards
McKenzies
Brigalow sachet. 

Edit, five ways if I can get some isinglass.

:icon_cheers:


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## MHB (12/11/10)

Not to rain on the parade, but unfortunately the testing you are doing don't mean diddley squat. Even if one of the supermarket finings worked brilliantly how can you know that the next packet you buy will be the same stuff or will be anywhere near as effective?

I strongly suspect that the "makers" mentioned just buy the stuff from other manufacturer. Looks like Wards is owned by McKenzies anyway so they are probably the same; neither are listed as gelatine makers (yes there is an industry body - GMAP).

There are products made to do the job properly, if someone suggested that supermarket baker's yeast will ferment sugar so we should all use it to make beer not likely. But it's cheap so this pointless discussion will go on and on and...

MHB


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## Nick JD (12/11/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> very common misconception... temperature does not really matter to finings and in fact they will drop yeast faster in room temperature wort than in 4C wort.



Nailed ... on the head. 

I use Wards Gelatine at fermenting temperatures (10-18C lagers and ales) and the difference on the same recipe (using vs not using) is huge. So much so I've had to add more yeast to get the bottles carbonated up and have stopped using gelatine with a couple of high flocculent yeasts. 

YMMV, and I strongly suggest everyone buy MHB's products so he can afford his transgender operation  .


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## MHB (12/11/10)

I come to AHB to discuss beer and brewing, yes I'm a retailer, but you go and find one instance of me engaging in marketing outside a retail thread in the 5 years I have been a member. In spite of trying to offer helpful advice and on occasion playing the devil's advocate, which let's face it this place needs occasionally.

Even in the face of provocation from demonstrably ignorant foul mouthed pratts, I'm going to resist the temptation of resorting to personal abuse, shame we can't have a discussion without some people taking it personally and trying (however badly) to play the man not the ball.

Grow up!

MHB


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## manticle (12/11/10)

MHB - the same could be said potentially for any product - eg how do you know each time that you are buying the same as last time? I guess you have to trust a little that consistency is going to serve the manufacturer as much as the consumer. Products of any type do change - sometimes because of cost, sometimes because of quality, sometimes something other. 

Bribie G's experiment won't prove anything absolutely but it's still interesting as I believe my experiment comparing HB finings to isinglass to various supermarket gelatine to no finings will be interesting (still waiting for said finings to arrive). Conclusive - no. Interesting to various members of the board including myself? Yes.

Have you yourself tried supermarket gelatin to see if it does anything? Considering the number of homebrewers who swear by them, it's worthy of experiential investigation surely?
Not difficult to check out either even if it's a little bit unscientific.

To add: the website you've linked (GMAP) even quotes gelatin being used to clarify beer and wine. Of course people are going to be interested in these things and in the cheaper ways of doing it. Don't you ever watch mythbusters?



> Beverages
> By acting as a coagulant, gelatin can be used to precipitate impurities during the manufacture of wine, beer, cider and juices. It has the advantages of unlimited shelf life in its dry form, ease of handling, rapid preparation and brilliant clarification.


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## Bribie G (12/11/10)

The idea of the McKenzies / Wards is not to go cheap, as such. It's a simple extension of not buying little jars of coffee when I can get the kilo drum of Nescafe on special from time to time. My usual supplier (A sponsor) of nearly all my requirements does not stock gelatine finings. So along with my ricez and sugaz I head for the supermarkets. 

The local supermarkets do sell finings, in the form of Brigalow gelatine finings in single dose packs. However they have tubs of gelatine in another aisle and I have no information that the two are substantially different compounds. Just as I have no information that a 3kg bag of sugar is in any way different to the substance in the little single serve sugar 'straws'. I have emailed Wards McKenzies to ask if their batches differ in animal origin, together with a short description of what finings are, and why that is of relevance to their products.

Edit: maybe a few more members could start posting piccies of their fined bottles. There was a long running thread on show me your drained kettle fulla shyte FFS :huh: - why not have a thread that may be half way useful.


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## Nick JD (12/11/10)

MHB said:


> Grow up!




Flocculate!


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## Nick JD (12/11/10)

It's just adding a positively charged thing to attract the negatively charged yeast clumps and make them inclined to sink. 

You can mix up a couple of egg whites and achieve the same thing.

Or, you can by my magic beans. Only ten times the price.


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## DU99 (12/11/10)

Question ..what is it we are trying to stop,and why is it so evil..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coopers_Brewery


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## MHB (12/11/10)

manticle
I have never said supermarket gelatine won't work, just that it isn't going work reliably, because fining isn't the job it's made for.
I'm not putting anything in my beer that I can't be reasonably confidant is going to do the job I chose it for, be that Malt, Hops, Yeast or Fining.
Now you and I both know that if a dozen people did the same experiment and 11 showed what Bribies' test did and the 12th reported a brilliant success an element of AHB'ers would be saying "use it works". 
And yes I have in what is getting on toward 30 years of home brewing tried gelatine and most of the other supposed home brew improvers, my conclusion is that good ingredients and good brewing make good beer. In this instance I would choose either Isinglass or a Gelatine made to be used as a fining, because I know it will work.

Shame you edited your post, I was going to suggest that "a bit unscientific" is a not unlike like being a bit pregnant, but maybe you worked that out for yourself.
Also in response to your edit: - yes I know gelatine is made for fining beer WTF do you think I sell people when they ask for finings! I sell them a product made to do the job, not one made to set brawn.
Yes I am familiar with myth busters, based on the evidence posted so far the "Myth" that supermarket gelatine works as a fining would be "Busted"

MHB


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## hirns (12/11/10)

"very common misconception... *temperature does not really matter to finings and in fact they will drop yeast faster in room temperature wort than in 4C wort." *Thirsty Boy

Thirsty, I believe that you have posted this before and it makes sense if we are talking about gelatine having a positive charge and attracting negatively charged particals. However, in my practical based science brain I've always then concluded that the gelatine particals set around the suspended particals to encourage them to precipitate. As mum's jelly allways sets better and faster in the fridge, I've always assumed that geletine works better at cooler temps. I'm in no way challenging you (and you have clearly stated that it is a misconception) as I've used geletine in my fermenters at room temp for years and I do see a difference, however, I have assumed that the results would be better again if I could chill first. Additionally, in regards to fluffy bottoms, are people talking about picking up a hot tallie or a refrigerated one?

Seeking clarity!

Cheers  

Hirns

l


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## MHB (12/11/10)

Loosely (pun intended) fluffy bottoms are mainly caused by using too much fining (of whatever type). As TB said it's about charge. If there is an excess of the fining the available Positives aren't cancelled out by Negatives so the excess Positives repel each other and just won't ever settle tight.

With the right dose of fining the yeast and the fining accrete into a bigger, denser particles and then Stokes Law comes into play, they sink faster. If you look at the equation you will see that the relative density of the particle and the liquid it's in play a big role in the rate of sedimentation. If you're filtering same effect (different cause) it's just easier to filter out bigger particles than small ones.

MHB


Oh and some yeast just doesnt settle well and will always give fluffy bottoms, e.g. Hefeweizen and Coopers, but thats not all bad.

M


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## brett mccluskey (12/11/10)

MHB said:


> I come to AHB to discuss beer and brewing, yes I'm a retailer, but you go and find one instance of me engaging in marketing outside a retail thread in the 5 years I have been a member. In spite of trying to offer helpful advice and on occasion playing the devil's advocate, which let's face it this place needs occasionally.
> 
> Even in the face of provocation from demonstrably ignorant foul mouthed pratts, I'm going to resist the temptation of resorting to personal abuse, shame we can't have a discussion without some people taking it personally and trying (however badly) to play the man not the ball.
> 
> ...


+2 After 6/7 months on this site ,it's fairly obvious who the shitstirrers/tossers are <_< ,and who the ppl who can offer informed ,intelligent,constructive comment are too :icon_cheers: Nick JD, you are obviously someone who craves attention for some reason.Get some help, buddy.Doctors and the proper medication can do wonders nowdays.


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## hirns (12/11/10)

THanks MHB, that did make things more clear!

Cheers

Hirns


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## winkle (13/11/10)

MHB said:


> Loosely (pun intended) fluffy bottoms are mainly caused by using too much fining (of whatever type). As TB said it's about charge. If there is an excess of the fining the available Positives aren't cancelled out by Negatives so the excess Positives repel each other and just won't ever settle tight.
> 
> With the right dose of fining the yeast and the fining accrete into a bigger, denser particles and then Stokes Law comes into play, they sink faster. If you look at the equation you will see that the relative density of the particle and the liquid it's in play a big role in the rate of sedimentation. If you're filtering same effect (different cause) it's just easier to filter out bigger particles than small ones.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your thoughts MHB, a light in the dark alley.


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## Nick JD (13/11/10)

toper1 said:


> Nick JD, you are obviously someone who craves attention for some reason.Get some help, buddy.Doctors and the proper medication can do wonders nowdays.



I need to see a doctor for saying that supermarket gelatine works fine for me and I don't need to spend ten times as much? 

I think you have forgotten to take your anti-melodrama pills today, Champ  . 

BribieG's work may not be based rigorously on experiemental procedure, but he's doing unbiased things here - and that's good. 

MHB is constantly trying to debunk supermarket cheap finings and I think he's full of it and biased because he sells expensive alternatives. My 2c, and YMMV.

Why does he care what we use if it works for us?


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## Silo Ted (13/11/10)

MHB said:


> But it's cheap so this pointless discussion will go on and on and...



Any experimentation posted here, as unscientific as it may be, is a good thing IMO, and there should be more of it, instead of just repeating gospel truths as fact. Im not suggesting you don't know your stuff, because you obviously have the experience, but slagging off even the most basic of tests might be read as being a bit negative. Overall MHB I agree with what youre saying about a consistent product designed for brewing, however this thread discussion is not entirely pointless, and I urge everyone to conduct their own tests on various elements of this hobby.

A mate of mine taught me a good way of looking at things when trying out stuff with brewing. Even if the outcome isn't what was expected, its still of as much benefit because it shows that a perceived idea isn't always correct. An example is when he bought some distilled water to do some refractometer calibration tests. The outcome was that tap water yielded the same readings, and I flippantly said 'oh thats a waste of your $3". I was cheerfully corrected with him saying that for $3, it still proved something - that distilled water wasn't necessary. Do you get my drift ? Often its what doesnt happen thats as important as what does. 

In BribieG's instance, this little test does tell me something. That his recipe combo, in combination with his technique, didn't actually need finings at all, because of the clarity of the unfined brew sample. How do you get clearer that 'crystal clear'? Specifically designed fining agents wouldn't have made one bit of difference in this instance.


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## olde (13/11/10)

Finings? Animal gelatin? Dunno about anyone else, but wtf would I put that shit in my beer? 2 weeks in the fermenter, 3 weeks in the keg and my beers pour very clear. Besides, I drink outta a stein and can't see if it's cloudy anyway.


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## manticle (13/11/10)

MHB said:


> manticle
> I have never said supermarket gelatine won't work, just that it isn't going work reliably, because fining isn't the job it's made for.
> I'm not putting anything in my beer that I can't be reasonably confidant is going to do the job I chose it for, be that Malt, Hops, Yeast or Fining.



Fair point - doesn't render this experiment uninteresting or useless which is what I was trying to get at. Many people (not just ahbers) report success using supermarket gelatin. Seeing somebody actually do it is at least as informative as just hearing people say _either_ 'it works' or 'there are better products'. 



> Now you and I both know that if a dozen people did the same experiment and 11 showed what Bribies' test did and the 12th reported a brilliant success an element of AHB'ers would be saying "use it works".



Actually this whole discussion has made me order both isinglass and HB gelatin finings (pretty cheap too - I think supermarket for me is as much about convenience) so I can see the difference for myself. More recently I haven't been fining beers at all - just CC and have generally been noticing clarity hasn't suffered remarkably. Sure some people will insisst black is white because it's cheap but I'm interested in what works. If two things work equally well and one is cheap then of course I'll go for the cheapest, all things being equal



> And yes I have in what is getting on toward 30 years of home brewing tried gelatine and most of the other supposed home brew improvers, my conclusion is that good ingredients and good brewing make good beer. In this instance I would choose either Isinglass or a Gelatine made to be used as a fining, because I know it will work.



Again fair point. My own is that other people are also interested in trying and seeing for themselves. Makes sense, no? I was told by someone selling finings not to bother as wards/mckenzies/davis was the same thing. You tell me they aren't. That makes me curious and interested in seeing what works. 



> Shame you edited your post, I was going to suggest that "a bit unscientific" is a not unlike like being a bit pregnant, but maybe you worked that out for yourself.
> Also in response to your edit: - yes I know gelatine is made for fining beer WTF do you think I sell people when they ask for finings! I sell them a product made to do the job, not one made to set brawn.
> Yes I am familiar with myth busters, based on the evidence posted so far the "Myth" that supermarket gelatine works as a fining would be "Busted"
> 
> MHB



Actually that bit is still there - my edit was purely to include the link and correct a couple of typos. Yes the phrase a 'bit unscientific' isn't the best (although not on the same level as 'a bit pregnant) - essentially I mean while inconclusive, the results of this test are still of interest and value. The science/method/sample group of many proper studies can be flawed and subject to criticism. Very few are beyond reproach. They may still give some interesting results but are rarely considered conclusive in and of themselves. They simply add to a body of evolving understanding. So too this makes some people not accept the HB truth that supermarket gelatin is _as_ effective as proprietary finings and at least make some of them want to try for themselves (at least that's what it does to me).

You yourself have suggested that brewing has no right/wrong answers and that you come here to discuss these things which is what I see happening here.


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## daemon (13/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> MHB is constantly trying to debunk supermarket cheap finings and I think he's full of it and biased because he sells expensive alternatives. My 2c, and YMMV.
> 
> Why does he care what we use if it works for us?


I think that's a bit unfair to accuse MHB of being biased just because he sells an alternative, in fact I would say he's offered both information and reasoning. I never realised how much of a difference there was with gelatine (not that I use gelatine much anyway) and he's provided a lot of info as to why. Sure he's a retailer and therefore has some vested interest in the products he sells (I'd be worried if he didn't!) but I haven't seen him trying to force anyone to buy from him.

I'd say he cares because like many other passionate brewers, he wants to improve his beer and share the knowledge with others. 

I'm now interested to see the comparison with Isinglass (from any retailer ) and no finings, I think BribeG has started a good discussion and I'm interested in the final results.


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## goomboogo (13/11/10)

manticle said:


> MHB - the same could be said potentially for any product - eg how do you know each time that you are buying the same as last time? I guess you have to trust a little that consistency is going to serve the manufacturer as much as the consumer. Products of any type do change - sometimes because of cost, sometimes because of quality, sometimes something other.



I think MHB's contention regarding consistency of product isn't related to the quality of the production process but rather the possibility of differences in constituents from batch to batch. Differences in fining ability may occur depending on whether the base ingredient is bovine or porcine. I'm sure he will correct me if I've misunderstood the basis of his argument.


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## manticle (14/11/10)

Yeah I understand that bit. It does make me curious though, if there's qualitative differences between different brands of food related gelatine. For example is gold leaf gelatine a high quality bovine based gelatine? Would that work as well as HB finings? I'm really not interested in just the cheapness of the product (gold leaf gelatin ain't cheap anyway) - I'm more interested in learning about what is going on, why and observing it for myself.

Curiosity not tightarsedness. I'm all for quality ingrediients making quality products - I used to work as a chef and frown upon inferior quality products being used in place of superior quality ones. Same with my beer which is why I will experiment with weyerman and dingemans malts rather than take anyone else's word and why I predominantly use liquid yeasts. You can't know this stuff until you give it a go though and just because something is expensive it doesn't become automatically better. The adage 'you get what you pay for' is a bit blanket for my liking. Just eating an $8 noodle soup at a great vientnamese place and comparing it with an expensive restaurant version can tell you that. There are some good quality, cheap things, some innovative ways of producing cheap things without skimping on quality and then a heck of a lot of rubbish, cheap shit things that aren't worth the effort.

My GG order has been delayed so it will be a while before I can do my own comparison. I'll post it here rather than start a new thread I think.


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## MHB (14/11/10)

I will make one last attempt to get across the point I have been trying to make.
When a manufacture like Davis or Ward (whoever) choose a gelatine to be packaged under their name, I am sure that as reputable suppliers they have a specification and demand good quality safe supply.
My point and the only point I have been trying to make is that that specification doesn't include the "FINING" ability of the gelatine. It will concern itself with the setting ability, level of contaminants, microbe count... all the things that a quality seller of a cooking ingredient needs to know.
When a home brew supplier sources gelatine the fining ability would come first.
Because any fining ability is coincidental in the cooking product, you don't know if what you are buying will work or not, when you buy the made for the job product it will work I don't put a might work in my beer!

Just because the packet you got at the supermarket last week works tells you nothing about the fining ability of next week's purchase.
To think all gelatine is the same would be like saying all malt is the same, or all yeast is the same, all sugars are the same if I said that you guys would think I was an idiot.
Not all gelatine is the same.
MHB





manticle said:


> You yourself have suggested that brewing has no right/wrong answers and that you come here to discuss these things which is what I see happening here.


I have said often enough that "there is rarely a single right answer in brewing" there is as I am sure you are aware a fundamental difference between the two statements. I have even said "there are three ways to do anything, the wrong way, a good way and a better way".
The second half of the sentence is correct, the first part is wrong. I take exception to being misquoted. There are plenty of wrong answers in brewing just a dire shortage of definitively "right" answers.
Mark


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## manticle (14/11/10)

MHB said:


> I will make one last attempt to get across the point I have been trying to make.
> When a manufacture like Davis or Ward (whoever) choose a gelatine to be packaged under their name, I am sure that as reputable suppliers they have a specification and demand good quality safe supply.
> My point and the only point I have been trying to make is that that specification doesn't include the "FINING" ability of the gelatine. It will concern itself with the setting ability, level of contaminants, microbe count... all the things that a quality seller of a cooking ingredient needs to know.
> When a home brew supplier sources gelatine the fining ability would come first.
> ...



I accept both points and apologise for misquoting you. I have however tried to make what I consider reasonable points of my own and have had none acknowledged.

I'm trying to discuss, not argue and not everything I write is going to be perfect or even perfectly expressed. I am trying to make an effort though.


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## haysie (14/11/10)

Good thread, I have doubts about gelatine. I have at most times had really good results. Until...... I opened a new bottle 2-3 months ago. In that 2-3 months none of my kegs are clearing like they should, I CPBF a case swap beer last week after being in the keg for a month, inspecting the bottles today I have yeast sediment. Tells me the gelatine didnt work in the keg. I have some nice lagers that have not flocced in the keg ATM as well. I may have a shit batch?
Inconsistency in "fining" ability is certainly food for thought.

I must try Isinglass, other brewers have told me its a complete PITA to prepare? I googled it and got wide and varying opinions.


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## manticle (14/11/10)

GG sell an already prepared solution.

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=7514


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## haysie (14/11/10)

manticle said:


> GG sell an already prepared solution.
> 
> http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=7514


,
Thx, looks a little less painfull. If I buy 2 I figure I have enough for 5 cornies, about a buck and a half a keg. I wont go broke checking it out. Add cold,ferment temp or dont matter?


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## manticle (14/11/10)

Like you mate I haven't used as yet. I have some on order so I can check it out - should hopefully arrive next week. I think cold but that's based on memory and based on the idea that it can help with chill haze. I'll find out and get back to you.


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## ekul (15/11/10)

Bribie, could you do an experiment with agar as well please.


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## Bribie G (15/11/10)

I like the look of the pre prepared stuff. 
Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.

FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:

_Dear Mr Gardner,

Thank you for contacting us via our website.

Our gelatine is a natural setting agent, derived from collagen (Beef skin origin), the main structural protein in connective tissue and bone. Product is type B (alkaline processed) gelatine.

Our prime supplier is Australian. In situations where there are supply or quality issues, we always have secondary suppliers (Brazil or New Zealand) which match the quality of the original product. They are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH.

I hope that I have been able to satisfactorily answer your query. If you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks

Priyanka Nijhawan
Customer Service/ QA Manager
_

So at least we know it's bovine and it's consistent from batch to batch.


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## brett mccluskey (15/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> I need to see a doctor for saying that supermarket gelatine works fine for me and I don't need to spend ten times as much?
> 
> I think you have forgotten to take your anti-melodrama pills today, Champ  .
> 
> ...


My comments in no way related to Bribies experiment,only your predilection for ending ,what at times,can be informed,intelligent,constructive discussion and debate with a personally insulting,derogatory comment.To put it basically,SHITSTIRRING! It brings nothing to the thread ,and just lowers the standard of the discussion B) The comments and opinions i expressed to you in another thread ,when you stuck your nose in out of nowhere, with a smartarse comment the other night,i stand by. You condemn yourself by your own comments,Nick.This has gone as far as it needs to as far as i'm concerned,so no more comments from me.
To quote Tenzyn Gyatso,H.H.The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet.."Patience and tolerance are not a sign of weakness... but a sign of STRENGTH! You give me the oppoprtunity to practice TRUE patience ,Nick,and i thank you for it :super:


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## rendo (23/11/10)

Hi BG,

Any updates on further your experiments with Gelatine, different yeasts, etc? I appreciate the effort you go to!

Pretty Pretty Please 

Rendo





BribieG said:


> I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
> Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.
> 
> FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:
> ...


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## Nick JD (24/11/10)

toper1 said:


> You give me the oppoprtunity to practice TRUE patience ,Nick,and i thank you for it :super:



Your welcome, Grasstoper. Now let's get back on topic.


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## [email protected] (24/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
> Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.
> 
> FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:
> ...



Sorry to resurrect this thread but just noticed the reply Bribie got back from McKenzie. 
The key thing with Gelatin is if it is type B or type A where type B is bovine origin and type A is from pigskin or fish . From my reading type B is alkaline process and type A uses an acid process. 



The measure of the how much cationic charge the gelatin has(hence, fining ability) is given by the isoelectric point. The isoelectric point for type B is around 5 and the isoelectric point for type A is 6 to 9. The other important aspect is that the gelatin molecule will only behave as a cation if the pH is less than the isoelectric point.



For beer, type B will work as a fining agent but may be not be as good as type A.

It is possible that the HBS finings are type A and potentially have greater positive charge.

I personnally use the McKenzies for some beers and find it works. I think the other thing that affects the performance is how homebrewers prep it. I generally put a teaspoon in 150ml cold sanitised water and let it bloom for 15 minutes and then heat gently to around 70 - 75degC and let pasturise and then add to the beer. I would have thought that adding boiling water straight from the kettle may denature the gelatin which could be another reason that people have found it not to work - this was certainly my view when I started brewing 15 years ago.



Some good info here if you want to get into it:

http://www.gelatin.co.za/fining.htm


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## jonocarroll (24/11/10)

abc said:


> [...] <lots of science> [...]







QuantumBrewer Likes this.

Cheers, abc. Much more useful than 'I did this therefore it works because x=y...' posts.


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## Nick JD (24/11/10)

abc said:


> I generally put a teaspoon in 150ml cold sanitised water and let it bloom for 15 minutes and then heat gently to around 70 - 75degC and let pasturise and then add to the beer.



Now that's a potentially HUGE aspect to this discussion. I use this method ... with great results with non-motherflocking yeasts.

EDIT - I see BribieG has used the _dissolve in water _method. 

Do the LHBSs finings require blooming and pasteurizing? Or are they chuck in?


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## [email protected] (24/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> Now that's a potentially HUGE aspect to this discussion. I use this method ... with great results with non-motherflocking yeasts.
> 
> EDIT - I see BribieG has used the _dissolve in water _method.
> 
> Do the LHBSs finings require blooming and pasteurizing? Or are they chuck in?



BribieG needs to clarify his preparation method. His wording is: _Ward's brand from supermarket, rounded tsp in Pyrex jug with around 80 ml of kettle water.

_Has he just added boiling water from to the dry finings to disolve? This is the method I used a long time ago to limited success until I do the bloom pasturise thing which has had consistently great results.


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## stux (24/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
> Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.
> 
> FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:
> ...



Actually, I think this confirms MHB's point.

"[various supplier batches] are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH"

They don't say "fining capability" there 

Mind you, maybe they do, I don't know what gives gelatine its fining capability.

They specifically say [paraphrased] "we use multiple suppliers but they are matched based on 6 characteristics so that they are comparable"

This actually confirms that they do have different suppliers batch to batch, and they don't necessarily have the same characteristics.


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## [email protected] (24/11/10)

Stux

If you read the link on post 110 it goes into great detail on why gelatine is a fining. In short it develops a positive cationic charge (+ve) that attracts the yeast. How well it does is dependent on type and manufacturing process.

Essentially the McKenzies will work according to the theory.

Have a read of the link.


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## jonocarroll (24/11/10)

abc said:


> positive cationic charge (+ve)


I've praised you for science, now I'll slap your wrist... the above is a little redundant, no? Like a negative sub-zero temperature (-ve).

Is this entire thread merely trying to counter the argument that 'X doesn't work because I used it incorrectly and it did nothing'?

X will only work (even if the theory is correct) if used correctly.


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## [email protected] (24/11/10)

Slap accepted. Need to read the posts more carefully!


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## manticle (24/11/10)

Stux said:


> Actually, I think this confirms MHB's point.
> 
> "[various supplier batches] are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH"
> 
> They don't say "fining capability" there



When I ordered my HBS gelatine finings recently from grain and grape, I was told by John that they quite openly just use the best quality food grade gelatin they can find. There's no mysterious special gelatin produced just for fining.


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## haysie (24/11/10)

manticle said:


> Like you mate I haven't used as yet. I have some on order so I can check it out - should hopefully arrive next week. I think cold but that's based on memory and based on the idea that it can help with chill haze. I'll find out and get back to you.



I got my 2 vials along with my monthly hit of other brewing goodies. I have done a bit of reading and listening, yet still cant come up with the "when to add" cold or otherwise. Most threads list the raw product, some other threads list the commercial inline onway to the brite tank, then other threads talk about denaturing at above 5deg.
So to clarify B) , i have the biofine product, unsure at what temp to throw it on the keg. Some kegs I cc, others I dont.

Anybody?


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## manticle (24/11/10)

I received mine the other day, yet to use it. Have you asked GG what their recommendations are?

Presumably instructions on preparing the raw product also talk about how and when to add prepared? My assumption is that only the first step has been done and the rest would be as usually recommended for isinglass.

Let me know when you find out.



abc said:


> I would have thought that adding boiling water straight from the kettle may denature the gelatin which could be another reason that people have found it not to work - this was certainly my view when I started brewing 15 years ago.



Gelatin proteins denature at around 40 degrees. Not sure the denaturing of the proteins has an effect on the electrical charge.

By not sure I mean not sure but if it does, then it should never be heated much above body temp.


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## skippy (24/11/10)

manticle said:


> I accept both points and apologise for misquoting you. I have however tried to make what I consider reasonable points of my own and have had none acknowledged.
> 
> I'm trying to discuss, not argue and not everything I write is going to be perfect or even perfectly expressed. I am trying to make an effort though.




try a uni degree in Brewing Science. That way you only have about 300 posts on the forum in 3 years


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## manticle (24/11/10)

Good point. Well made.


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## haysie (24/11/10)

Looks like a kick ass serious thread. I dont have a science thingy or a rims or a first place under deleted his name judging. Will it still be ok to have a name and password?
Muppets, blueing about finings FFS.


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## brett mccluskey (25/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> Your welcome, Grasstoper. Now let's get back on topic.


+1 Oooohm! :beer:


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