# Yeast starter not doing anything



## thisispants (3/5/18)

So I made my first yeast starter yesterday .....

Boiled 1L of water with 100g of DME for 15 minutes, cooled it down to 23C then pitched the yeast.

It has been about 20 hours and there's literally nothing going on 

I've been regularly shaking it up to get some oxygen in there ... The only thing that's slightly different is the solution seems mildly carbonated when I shake it up.... It seems to fizz slightly.

No krausen at all .....

Yeast is white lab's Dry English Ale. 

Bad yeast or did I do something wrong?

Room temperature is about 20.


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## Rocker1986 (3/5/18)

Sometimes they don't show much activity, but you can usually see the color of the starter get lighter/more opaque as the yeast culture grows. If it appears to have CO2 in it then it may well be working, that wouldn't be there if the yeast weren't fermenting. You could try taking a gravity sample to see if it's dropped any. The OG of it would be around the 1.038-40 mark.


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## philrob (3/5/18)

It probably maybe decided that 1 litre wasn't big enough to require growth, so it's just fermenting your 1 litre of beer.
I use at least 2 litres of about 1.035 to 1.040 SG with a smakpak on the stirplate. I'd use a bigger one if I had a large enough flask.


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## Schikitar (3/5/18)

From what I read a while back across multiple sources (which I can no longer remember the name of sorry) 2-3 litres is the sweet spot, I always build 2.5 litre starters myself..


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## Rocker1986 (4/5/18)

The size of the starter depends on how many cells you're starting with and the required amount for the batch they're going into. I don't believe in these one size fits all approaches for stuff like this because there are too many variables. According to at least one source (Braukaiser I think), the optimum inoculation rate is between 25 and 100 million cells per mL for a starter. If you're starting with 100bn (viable) cells, then in 1 litre you're right on the top end of that range and better off with at least 1.5 litres. But if you were starting with 50bn viable cells you wouldn't throw it straight into 3 litres because the inoculation rate would be too low, around 16 million cells per mL.


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## Schikitar (4/5/18)

Yeah, very true. I typically always use a starter calculator just to make sure I tick the boxes, above was a generalisation and as you rightly suggest not everything is one-size-fits-all!


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## Rocker1986 (4/5/18)

Yeah, most of the time my starters are about 2 litres (aside from lagers) mainly because I brew similar OG beers most of the time. I harvest about 800mL of them to get yeast for the next one so the actual size of the starter required for the yeast needed for the batch itself is closer to 1 litre, which I use only when I'm on the last re-use of a strain before buying a fresh culture.


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## billysbeer (21/5/18)

If you have done a starter from a liquid yeast. How long should it take to start. As I normally see strong fermentation within a few hours. But I recently started an abbey ale and it took two days to show signs of fermentation.


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## Rocker1986 (22/5/18)

billysbeer said:


> If you have done a starter from a liquid yeast. How long should it take to start. As I normally see strong fermentation within a few hours. But I recently started an abbey ale and it took two days to show signs of fermentation.


Well it depends on the strain somewhat. I haven't used abbey ale yeast before though so I'm not sure of its behaviour. Two days is a bit long I would have thought.


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## billysbeer (22/5/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Well it depends on the strain somewhat. I haven't used abbey ale yeast before though so I'm not sure of its behaviour. Two days is a bit long I would have thought.



Yeah that's what I thought. Luckily I dumped it. It did still taste ok though. Really strong clove taste. Thanks.


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## markp (22/5/18)

Just reading through these posts and I am in the same boat as the op, I have a 1L starter that I put down yesterday and am now doubting that it’s large enough. I went to mr malty and am unsure of a few things one being the viability date of the yeast, is this the date of manufacture? 
I have wyeast 1272 with a manufacture date of 20feb 2018 and am making a 20L batch of 1.045 og ale, now if I am reading mr malty right I should be making a 3L starter not 1L is this correct?
Cheers for reply’s.


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## Rocker1986 (22/5/18)

I don't really like Mr Malty that much. I prefer yeastcalculator.com. Anyway, it depends if you have a stir plate or are using the intermittent shaking method, or simply letting it sit there undisturbed. According to YC, with the intermittent shaking method you'd want a 2 litre starter to achieve the required cell count, and on a stir plate 1 litre would be sufficient. If you just leave it there doing nothing, it'd need to be 3.2 litres in size. You don't want to make it that big anyway, because the inoculation rate is too low (14.3 million cells per mL, minimum should be 25 million).


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## Jangles (5/9/18)

billysbeer said:


> Yeah that's what I thought. Luckily I dumped it. It did still taste ok though. Really strong clove taste. Thanks.



Hey billysbeer , Are you saying you dumped your brew as in literally ? I have a question … could you add another yeast starter maybe of the same strain to do the rest of the work for you to try and salvage the wert ?


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## Rocker1986 (5/9/18)

Jangles said:


> Hey billysbeer , Are you saying you dumped your brew as in literally ? I have a question … could you add another yeast starter maybe of the same strain to do the rest of the work for you to try and salvage the wert ?


Clove tastes are phenols and generally don't go away. If I had a batch turn out with that in it unintentionally, which would be on any batch as I hate the flavor, I'd be tipping it down the drain too.


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## RobinW (5/9/18)

I had 800ml of wort left from a brew last week so put it in a flask and dropped in a pack of us-05. It showed no activity at all even on a stir plate. Left it for a couple of days then cooled it in the fridge and poured off the spent liquid.

I then made a 2L DME starter while it was cooling and once ready poured in the first batch. Used a 3L flask and overnight the krauser was up to the top of the flask.

Sometimes it's quick other times slow.


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## Jangles (5/9/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Clove tastes are phenols and generally don't go away. If I had a batch turn out with that in it unintentionally, which would be on any batch as I hate the flavor, I'd be tipping it down the drain too.



Fair enough , Is it due to poor yeast management as to why the phenols are prevalent then ?


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## Rocker1986 (6/9/18)

Jangles said:


> Fair enough , Is it due to poor yeast management as to why the phenols are prevalent then ?


Possibly, but I think it's more strain dependent. Some produce them more than others. 

I did have a batch I fermented with US-05 come out a bit phenolic, it wasn't clove like though. I suspect it was from reusing the yeast too many times and it mutated too far away from the original state.


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## Jangles (6/9/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Possibly, but I think it's more strain dependent. Some produce them more than others.
> 
> I did have a batch I fermented with US-05 come out a bit phenolic, it wasn't clove like though. I suspect it was from reusing the yeast too many times and it mutated too far away from the original state.



Thanks for replying mate , the pros and cons to reusing the yeast I guess . 

Hey my bro did a K&K yesterday and for some reason pitched the yeast into quite warm wert before cooling to ferm temps in fermenter 


He was steeping a hop bag after boil for 20 mins then added extracts and lastly yeast . Wondering if the yeast would've survived 
those sorts of temps ? He seems to think yeast will be fine as he works with yeast everyday as a baker … I beg to differ lol

I told him usually we add yeast last once wert is in ferm and sitting at 20 degs 

If hes killed the yeast do you think we can just put in some new or will batch now maybe have some off flavours ?


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## Rocker1986 (6/9/18)

What was the actual temp? The yeast will survive up to about 40 degrees (maybe higher) so it's unlikely he killed it. Depending on how long it stayed at the elevated temp, off flavors may occur but it should be pretty right if it was brought down quickly enough. I would agree that pitching at ferment temps is better practice, but sometimes it's not possible and it's better to get the yeast in ASAP than let the wort sit around for hours cooling down first.


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## Jangles (6/9/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> What was the actual temp? The yeast will survive up to about 40 degrees (maybe higher) so it's unlikely he killed it. Depending on how long it stayed at the elevated temp, off flavors may occur but it should be pretty right if it was brought down quickly enough. I would agree that pitching at ferment temps is better practice, but sometimes it's not possible and it's better to get the yeast in ASAP than let the wort sit around for hours cooling down first.



Not really sure on temps but he had the wert boiling for like 2 mins then turned off and let sit for 20 so hopefully it cooled enough in that time 
and I guess he was stirring through the malts and such after that period so that would have helped too . 

anyway time will tell , cheers mate


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## Rocker1986 (6/9/18)

The boiling wort wouldn't have cooled enough in 20 minutes but if it was then mixed up with water that would have cooled it enough. Hopefully the yeast was pitched after mixing with water!


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## billysbeer (13/9/18)

Jangles said:


> Hey billysbeer , Are you saying you dumped your brew as in literally ? I have a question … could you add another yeast starter maybe of the same strain to do the rest of the work for you to try and salvage the wert ?





Jangles said:


> Hey billysbeer , Are you saying you dumped your brew as in literally ? I have a question … could you add another yeast starter maybe of the same strain to do the rest of the work for you to try and salvage the wert ?


Hello Jangles sorry for the late reply but I haven't logged in for a while. And nah I didn't dump the whole batch just the 3 litres of DME yeast starter and the yeast that was not activating quick enough. Iv had a few starters not ferment due to long storage.


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## blink471 (23/11/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Yeah, most of the time my starters are about 2 litres (aside from lagers) mainly because I brew similar OG beers most of the time. I harvest about 800mL of them to get yeast for the next one so the actual size of the starter required for the yeast needed for the batch itself is closer to 1 litre, which I use only when I'm on the last re-use of a strain before buying a fresh culture.


Hi mate. I know this post was a fews months ago, just wasn't sure what you meant. You said you collect the yeast to get about 1 litre, and only use on last re-use of strain. So do keep using the collected yeast from each wort you have just brewed, up till the original re-use date on pack? I'm going to do this as well but not sure how many batches are too much. Thanks mate.


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## Rocker1986 (23/11/18)

blink471 said:


> Hi mate. I know this post was a fews months ago, just wasn't sure what you meant. You said you collect the yeast to get about 1 litre, and only use on last re-use of strain. So do keep using the collected yeast from each wort you have just brewed, up till the original re-use date on pack? I'm going to do this as well but not sure how many batches are too much. Thanks mate.


What I meant was, if I wasn't harvesting from the starter then it would only need to be about 1 litre in size. Because I take 800mL of it for the next time, they have to be around 2 litres to account for that portion harvested. 

So, 800mL of it goes into a mason jar which is stored in the fridge, the remaining 1.2 litres or whatever contains the yeast that is pitched into the batch. 

When I decide it's time to replace the yeast with a new pack, I don't harvest anything from the starter, so in that instance it is only made to about a litre or so. 

I often get around 14-15 reuses from a wyeast smack pack before I replace it.


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## ABG (23/11/18)

blink471 said:


> Hi mate. I know this post was a fews months ago, just wasn't sure what you meant. You said you collect the yeast to get about 1 litre, and only use on last re-use of strain. So do keep using the collected yeast from each wort you have just brewed, up till the original re-use date on pack? I'm going to do this as well but not sure how many batches are too much. Thanks mate.



I can't speak for @Rocker1986 but like him, I make a bigger starter than I need and then pour a portion into a mason jar that's been sterlised (put it and the lid into boiling water for 15 minutes, then allow to cool to room temperature). Once it's in the mason jar, pop it into the fridge until you want to use that strain next and repeat the whole starter procedure.

I re-use the same strain about 3 or 4 times - occasionally I've gone higher by not being methodical with my note taking and being too enthusiastic with QA testing from previous batches of beer. I don't worry about the use by date on the original packet (apart from the first pitch into the original starter) and have successfully re-used my reserved starters 4 months down the track. I've heard some people say they've reused theirs after 6 months. I've also heard of people re-using the same strain more than 6 times, but I'm worried about the yeast drifitng away from the original charecteristics of the strain.


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## blink471 (23/11/18)

Ok got it... Thanks guys for replies. I have collected from batches before and re-used, just interested how others do it. I also have been adding late hop additions at the end of fermentation, and this has been in slurry but I have done a quick wash of collected yeast and use it with a similar recipe. I was mainly interested in how many times you reuse it before it loses its true characteristics. Thanks guy's.


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## ABG (23/11/18)

blink471 said:


> Ok got it... Thanks guys for replies. I have collected from batches before and re-used, just interested how others do it. I also have been adding late hop additions at the end of fermentation, and this has been in slurry but I have done a quick wash of collected yeast and use it with a similar recipe. I was mainly interested in how many times you reuse it before it loses its true characteristics. Thanks guy's.



Washing yeast is how I used to harvest my yeast, but it's way more work than just reserving some of your starter for later use.


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## blink471 (23/11/18)

ABG said:


> Washing yeast is how I used to harvest my yeast, but it's way more work than just reserving some of your starter for later use.



So you dont find the hops a problem? Your way sounds much less work. Will give it a go. Cheers.


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## Rocker1986 (25/11/18)

blink471 said:


> So you dont find the hops a problem? Your way sounds much less work. Will give it a go. Cheers.


There are no hops in a starter.


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## blink471 (26/11/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> There are no hops in a starter.


Not meaning a starter. Was talking about using the slurry after fermentation with late hops that settled in bottom.


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## ABG (26/11/18)

blink471 said:


> So you dont find the hops a problem? Your way sounds much less work. Will give it a go. Cheers.





blink471 said:


> Not meaning a starter. Was talking about using the slurry after fermentation with late hops that settled in bottom.



@Rocker1986 is spot on. There are no hops in a starter. I simply reserve some of my starter for my next batch. I just chuck out the slurry at the bottom of my fermenter after each batch.
I used to wash this, but pinching a bit from the starter, like @Rocker1986 mentions earlier is way simpler, easier and less prone to infection.


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## blink471 (26/11/18)

ABG said:


> @Rocker1986 is spot on. There are no hops in a starter. I simply reserve some of my starter for my next batch. I just chuck out the slurry at the bottom of my fermenter after each batch.
> I used to wash this, but pinching a bit from the starter, like @Rocker1986 mentions earlier is way simpler, easier and less prone to infection.


Ok thanks. That idea seems better. I got confused. Thanks to you both. I will get there.


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