# Plz help w/ improving mash efficiency?



## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

Hey guys,

So I'm using a rectangular/wide esky that I've modified into a mashtun for single step infusion. 
Currently, I'm achieving about 55-63% efficiency, meaning I'm wasting money on grain and time on boiling down. 
So I'd appreciate any advice on how to improve my mash technique!

Currently:
1) Pre-heat mashtun at 80C with 2-3L water per kilo of grain (beersmith calculation)
2) Wait for 70-75C (depending on how much grain I'm using) and strike. 
3) Mix in grain over about 5mins to make a porridge
4) Aim for temp around 69C (temp drops by 5C in 60mins), add ice or boiling water to achieve (usually dead on with temps so don't need to add)
5) Close lid and cover with blankets, leave for 60mins
6) Drain the mash water completely
7) Use pre-heated water to fly sparge over the grain at 77C until achieving desired wort volume. 

That's it. 
Should I consider collecting the mash water in step 6, placing it back on the element to bring it up to 69C, and then mash again for another hour? Or perhaps my sparge isn't great. 

If you want to check out my mash kit, here's the public album on FB: https://www.facebook.com/luke.st.stephen/media_set?set=a.10202069549245272.1073741828.1383251361&type=3
Clearly a student effort!

Cheers guys!
Luke


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Re circulate your mash water. Helps rinse sugars and gives clearer wort into the kettle.

Sparge with boiling water ( this helps make the grain bed more fluid and rinses more sugars out ) and let it sit for 10-15m, giving an occasional stir. Then re circulate sparge water until clear.

Most conversion takes place in 20-30mins so no need for longer than 60min

Grain crush can also have an effect. You want to get 20-30% flour from your crush.


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

Ah damn, I ask grain and grape to mill it for me and I definitely don't get 20-30% flour. 

What do you mean by recirculate? You mean just pour it out at 64C and put it back in? 
Also, are you sure about the boil sparge? I've heard that that can make the beer really thick and at that temp you get less fermentables? 
And how clear are we talking here?


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## Not For Horses (22/6/14)

I used to have the same problem with efficiency in my current esky setup. Add a mashout step and you will see a significant increase in efficiency. My go to mash regime is now 64-69c (depending on style) for 60min then 72c for 10 minutes then mashout at 75c.
All of this done with infusions of boiling water to get to the next desired temperature. This gave me a 10% increase in efficiency compared to single infusion in my system.
I then fly sparge 80c water.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Re-circulate by draining into a jug and pouring back onto the top of the grain bed. Note: Use a bit of al foil, squashed pie tin or saucer to alliw the liquid to evenly flow onto the grain bed.

Using boiling/hot sparge water loosens the grain bed. It does not thicken it.This is for your sparge water only. Dont boil your runnings.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> And how clear are we talking here?


Reasonably clear. You will noticed a marked difference an clarity after a few re-circs. It will still be cloudy, but clearer than your first runnings.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

Do you have a manifold or false bottom in your mash tun?

If so try not draining the mash completely before fly sparging as in your step 6. Start sparging and drain the mash tun slowly in to the kettle, ensure the wort out of the tun is equal to the sparge water going in to maintain a couple cm of water over the grain until you have used all your sparge water. Sparge for about 1 or1 1/2 hours.

If you have a braid try batch sparging.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

Actually looking at your pictures it looks like you are just pouring saucepans of sparge water over the completely drained grain bed is that right?


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Add a mashout step and you will see a significant increase in efficiency. My go to mash regime is now 64-69c (depending on style) for 60min then 72c for 10 minutes then mashout at 75c.


Can you explain this mashout step a little more for me? I thought mash out just meant collecting your runnings... 




S.E said:


> Do you have a manifold or false bottom in your mash tun?
> 
> If so try not draining the mash completely before fly sparging as in your step 6. Start sparging and drain the mash tun slowly in to the kettle, ensure the wort out of the tun is equal to the sparge water going in to maintain a couple cm of water over the grain until you have used all your sparge water. Sparge for about 1 or1 1/2 hours.
> 
> If you have a braid try batch sparging.


I've got a false bottom I made out of a toilet/laundry pipe, see my FB link. 
By sparge for 1 or 1 1/2 hours, do you mean just fill the esky with sparge water at the same time as draining, until I no longer have any more sparge water, but the sparge water is covering the grain bed, and then stop the flow, cover the esky, and then let sit for the time duration?




Ducatiboy stu said:


> Re-circulate by draining into a jug and pouring back onto the top of the grain bed. Note: Use a bit of al foil, squashed pie tin or saucer to alliw the liquid to evenly flow onto the grain bed.
> 
> Using boiling/hot sparge water loosens the grain bed. It does not thicken it.This is for your sparge water only. Dont boil your runnings.


What does re-circulating actually do? I would've thought it wouldn't make much difference given that the runnings would have reduced in heat to about 63C, and will continue to drop as you recirculate. But obviously this is just a thought.


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

S.E said:


> Actually looking at your pictures it looks like you are just pouring saucepans of sparge water over the completely drained grain bed is that right?


yep, but I've calculated how much water I'm using. this is my "fly sparge"


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## S.E (22/6/14)

As you are using a saucepan fill the esky with sparge water a few litres at a time while letting it drain slowly for about an hour but keeping the water level over the grain bed till you have used all your sparge water, then just let it continue to drain slowly till it is finished.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> What does re-circulating actually do? I would've thought it wouldn't make much difference given that the runnings would have reduced in heat to about 63C, and will continue to drop as you recirculate. But obviously this is just a thought.


It gives a clearer wort into the kettle, which gives less trub to deal with post. And it aids in rinsing sugars. 

Your first initial sparge re circulation will drop the grain bed temp. This is why I then use boiling water for the next 2-3 sparges ( using batch sparge NOT fly sparge ). The boiling water raises your grain bed temp. Its this raised bed temp that helps rinse out the dissolved sugars. It is, basically, a basic mash-out step,


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Fly ( continous ) sparging is a little more tricky, which is why a lot if brewers use batch sparging.


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## Not For Horses (22/6/14)

Mash out means increasing the temperature from your main mash to mid to high 70s.
I achieve this by adding a particular volume of boiling waterat the end of the main mash. Your brewing software should be able to calculate this for you.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

But....dont get to tied up in mash-out values. They are more traditionaly used to stop enzyme activity.

Its safe to take your grain bed temps into the mid 80*c range..

There is not real hard & fast rule. Everyone has different brew rigs & methods. You just need to run a few brews thru it to get a base line of what YOUR system will do.


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## Not For Horses (22/6/14)

I'm more concerned with wort viscosity than enzyme activity. I mashout at 74 or 75 because that's all the boiling water I can fit in my esky.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

Sounds to me like you are doing an inefficient cross between fly and batch sparging though.

Are you are opening the ball valve fully to drain the tun completely then pouring saucepans of water over the grain with the valve still fully open?
If so that’s your problem.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Not For Horses said:


> I'm more concerned with wort viscosity than enzyme activity. I mashout at 74 or 75 because that's all the boiling water I can fit in my esky.


Yep.

Wort viscosity is key, hence my use of boiling water.

I pour 2ltrs of boiling water in the mash tun just before sparging to raise the temp and make sparging a lot easier.

Stuck sparges suck big time.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

S.E said:


> Sounds to me like you are doing an inefficient cross between fly and batch sparging though.
> 
> Are you are opening the ball valve fully to drain the tun completely then pouring saucepans of water over the grain with the valve still fully open?
> If so that’s your problem.


Fly sparging is best when using a pump....

But we are getting way ahead of ourslelves with that.

My suggestion is to batch sparge, not try fly sparging at this stage.


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

S.E said:


> Sounds to me like you are doing an inefficient cross between fly and batch sparging though.
> 
> Are you are opening the ball valve fully to drain the tun completely then pouring saucepans of water over the grain with the valve still fully open?
> If so that’s your problem.


Yeah this is what I'm doing. Please explain


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

Could anyone with a similar set-up elaborate on their technique?


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## Adr_0 (22/6/14)

First things I was thinking of:
- Is your sparging temperature actually 77°C, or is that just the water? If you drop 5°C in your mash (down to 64-65°C) you are probably only back in the high 60's and IMO even that is optimistic if you have the mash tun open the whole time letting heat out
- Grain crush can probably be a bit finer. Coarse (with husks in tact) are good for sparging but if the endospermy stuff isn't broken up totally it's hard for the water to access these, i.e. hard for the sugar to get into the water

Is there a way you can just go back to batch sparging, i.e. dump a fair bit of your water in the mash tun in one go, give it a stir, sit for 5-10min, recirc and drain?

Stu's suggestion of hotter water (90°C maybe?) is probably the best way to drastically improve things IMO.

Not sure if you can go a slightly finer crush but have a look at your crushed grain at the shop if you can, and maybe get them to run it through at a slightly tighter setting. Or hook up with a nearby brewer who can crush your grains for you and give you some pointers?


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## Adr_0 (22/6/14)

And any way you can improve the sealing of your esky? Air gaps are horrible for heat loss. Not much you can do about wall insulation, unless you want to wrap it up in yoga mats?

At 69°C 60min should be plenty. Dropping to 64°C changes things a bit though: your alpha enzymes wouldn't be as active, and instead your slower beta enzymes will be taking over - if they aren't denatured. So you might be losing a bit in conversion efficiency even though theoretically (holding at 69°C) you should be fine.

So insulating the esky and eliminating air gaps will help a lot for a lot of reasons. Anytime you open it you lose a fair bit of heat too. A wall-mounted bi-metal thermometer would be good, but not sure if that's what you 'need' at the moment.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Yeah this is what I'm doing. Please explain


Do not drain the mashtun until you have used all your sparge water. Only open the ball valve slightly and let the wort run slowly in to the kettle over about an hour while keeping the tun topped up with water using your saucepan. Recirculate first as advised above.

Fly sparging is easier and better from a gravity HLT or pump but a saucepan or jug is fine just a bit labour intensive.


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## peaky (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm using a rectangular/wide esky that I've modified into a mashtun for single step infusion.
> Currently, I'm achieving about 55-63% efficiency, meaning I'm wasting money on grain and time on boiling down.
> ...


Steps 1 through to 5 are spot on, you're doing it right.

Step 6 is where it's turning to custard.

At Step 6 don't drain the mash tun completely.* Slowly* drain some wort from the mash tun into a jug. Return this wort to the mash tun, slowly pouring it in so as not to mix the mash up too much. Repeat this until the wort running from the tun is reasonably clear. It should only take a couple of goes. This recirculation prevents you running cloudy wort into your kettle.

Then begin adding your hot sparge water to the mash tun slowly so as not to disturb the mash too much. Keep adding hot water until there is a few centimetres of water covering the grain bed.

Then open the tap on your mash tun a little bit and slowly let the wort run out into the kettle.

Keep adding your hot sparge water to the mash tun at about the same rate as the wort is draining into the kettle, all the while keeping a few centimetres of water covering the grain bed.

Once you've used up all your sparge water, just let the wort continue to drain slowly into the kettle.

Play around with the temp of your sparge water over the next few brews and you'll be able to work out what temp your sparge water needs to be to get your grain bed up into the high 70's during the sparge.

I'm sure you will increase your efficiency by doing this.


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

I'm not sure what's meant by "sparge temp", so the water that I'm sparging with is 77C. I'm now beginning to think that the grain bed is supposed to be 77C during the sparge. And all this time I've been looking at set-ups with the boilers attached to the mashtuns thinking how the f do they make the water exactly 77C. 

The water is at 69, and then it drops to 64 at the end of the 60mins. I'm already insulating a lot, so not sure if I can really improve that. Perhaps I could raise the temp to 72 so that at the end of the mash it would have dropped to 67? But I'm not too sure that 72 is ideal. Alternatively I could add some boiling water at 30mins, but that may overcomplicate things with sparge water amounts. 

Can't really do much about the grain. Don't have a mill, and don't have a car so I can't really get around to use someone else's mill. 

Wall-mounted thermometer would be amazing, but too expensive. 

So basically I need to improve the efficiency with what I've got.


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## peaky (22/6/14)

Grain and Grape are milling your grain. I've had them mill my grain before it's always been good. I don't think this is your problem.

Yes, you need to get your grain bed temp up into the high 70's to sparge effectively. To acheive this you will need to heat your sparge water to somewhere around 85 degrees before adding it to the mash tun.

You are getting your strike right but keep working on ways to keep your mash at a consistent temp throughout the 60min mash.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> 1.. And all this time I've been looking at set-ups with the boilers attached to the mashtuns thinking how the f do they make the water exactly 77C.
> 
> 2..The water is at 69, and then it drops to 64 at the end of the 60mins. I'm already insulating a lot, so not sure if I can really improve that.
> 
> ...


1.. Forget looking at other systems. You will only get confused.

2..Get a peice of polystyrene foam ( from a Broccolli box ) and cut a peice so it sits snugly in your tun directly on top of the grain during the mash. You will be amazed how much it stops heat loss

3..No...No...& No. Do not do any of those things.

4.. Wall mounts are a PITA. The get in the way. Best off to stick your thermo thru the top of your polystyrene cover. Works perfectly

5..Can be done very easly. You just need to put a few brews thru it to get it sorted.


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## manticle (22/6/14)

While fly sparging can increase efficiency into the kettle, there are also more things that can go wrong. I'd batch sparge with enough water to get the mash to 78 or so, drain, batch again. Once you are happy with numbers and results, take another look at fly if you want to. I reckon it's your sparging method but I am guessing. Also a touch of calcium in the mash may help. As with all these low efficiency issues though, you really need to work out where in the process you are deficient before you can work out a solution.


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

Broccoli box is a great idea!

Also, batch sparging?


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## manticle (22/6/14)

I'm on a phone but google will explain everything.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Broccoli box is a great idea!
> 
> Also, batch sparging?


Yes. Stick to batch sparging.

Fly sparging is more efficiant, but not much. And brings a whole lot of headaches like monitoring ph and other really fun stuff.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

manticle said:


> .....google will explain everything.


I googled my feral neighbours.....no explanations found.....


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## peaky (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Broccoli box is a great idea!
> 
> Also, batch sparging?


It might be worth having a search on youtube, I'm sure you'll find some vids that demostrate both fly sparging and batch sparging in homebrewing. It's easier to understand the processes when you can watch it being done.


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## thebigwilk (22/6/14)

PH can also be a factor especially for lighter colour beers I always add around 2ml of lactic acid (you can buy from grain and grape) it will also help in the end flavour if you get the PH down around 5.5 it will be a brighter tasting beer and less dull.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

I think we should concerntrate on his efficiency & methods first...


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## thebigwilk (22/6/14)

High PH = low efficiency


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

It can be, but I doubt it will bring it up by 10%...


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## thebigwilk (22/6/14)

> It can be, but I doubt it will bring it up by 10%...


And that's based on your personal experience ?


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

Yes.


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## thebigwilk (22/6/14)

Good


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## peaky (22/6/14)

Lol


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

How do you do the pH stuff actually out of interest? It wouldn't really be too hard to do a quick pH test in the water im boiling and then add something to reduce/increase the pH


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## lswhi3 (22/6/14)

thebigwilk said:


> PH can also be a factor especially for lighter colour beers I always add around 2ml of lactic acid (you can buy from grain and grape) it will also help in the end flavour if you get the PH down around 5.5 it will be a brighter tasting beer and less dull.


Also, if your buying from grain and grape you must be melbourne based? Think glen waverley and your water would be the same? That could mean I could get away with throwing 2ml of lactic acid in the water as im heating it without having to go into water chemistry


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

There are lots of things that will increase mash eff. 

You can get to 75% easy enough, but getting 80+ takes a bit more work.

A few of the things I found to get to 80%

Grain crush. Aim for 20-30% flour. Having your own mill helps. Getting the right combo of roller speed & gap takes a while, and different grains crush different.

Sparging ( batch ) with boiling water, stir, let stand for 10-15 mins and re-circulate. This helps rinse out more sugars

Moistening the whole grains before milling. This gives intact husks, which is great for sparging and aslo releases more of the kernel grom the husk

I played with acidulated malts....etc..etc but found it made SFA difference once I got everything else sorted.

There are a lot of variables and as everyone has different equipment its hard to give a cut n dried method. 

If my mill gap was out slightly, (I usually ran 0.9mm gap with 2" knurled solid stainless rollers at 180rpm ) then my eff would drop by as much as 5%.


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## TheWiggman (22/6/14)

I agree with the batch sparging sentiments. I tried this to start with and it is a piece of piss. You really can't go wrong.
With your original method, probably what's happening is the water was running straight through the grain and not getting much of a chance to soak up the remaining sugary goodness. Much will remain.

I think this is a good video and everybody loves to quote John Palmer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc

I'd advise you to put pH and acid adjustment aside until you've got the core of the processes right. By all means ignore me, but you will still make decent beer with reasonable efficiency without it once you understand the mashing process and your system.


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## S.E (22/6/14)

peaky said:


> Steps 1 through to 5 are spot on, you're doing it right.
> 
> Step 6 is where it's turning to custard.
> 
> ...


That’s what I was trying to say but perhaps not as clearly.  Step 6 of the process is clearly where it’s going wrong.

I would stick with fly sparging personally especially if you’re after efficiency. Try batch sparging for yourself also though and see what works best for you but fly is really not difficult after you’ve tried it once or twice. One of my mash tuns is similar to the op, I tried batch sparging in it initially but wasn’t impressed with efficiency around 70%. The same tun fly sparging I get 80% up to 85% if I mill coarse or barely cracked for a floating mash.

I would get gravity HLT ASAP though as jug/saucepan sparging is a bit of a pain even with a small batch.


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## peaky (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Also, if your buying from grain and grape you must be melbourne based? Think glen waverley and your water would be the same? That could mean I could get away with throwing 2ml of lactic acid in the water as im heating it without having to go into water chemistry


So you're in Glen Waverley? I'm only 20min away. Maybe I'll just come and show you how to fly sparge some time, it's piss easy. I'll bring my pH meter with me. It'll only cost you a longneck :chug:

PM me if you're keen.


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## thebigwilk (22/6/14)

Not sure about the whole batch sparging with boiling water, the rule of thumb is don't go to far over 77c or with the mash at any stage or you risk extracting taninns which can produce undesirable flavours and haze in your beers.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

I would jump at that.

Get someone to run thru the whole process with you on your rig.


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## thebigwilk (22/6/14)

Here's a water programme for the mash I downloaded and have had good success with,if you can track down a local water report and fill in required information it will help fine tune your brews. www.ezwatercalculator.com


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/14)

thebigwilk said:


> Not sure about the whole batch sparging with boiling water, the rule of thumb is don't go to far over 77c or with the mash at any stage or you risk extracting taninns which can produce undesirable flavours and haze in your beers.


You would be suprised that even though you use boiling water, it doesnt raise the grain bed as much as you think. I at first thought it would scold the grains and do wierd things, but if you actually measure the grain bed after each runnings you will find that that it is not that severe..

I made a lot of pale ales this way and they where fine. I got this method of another brewer who produced state championship beers, so it cant be that bad, or wrong.


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## Adr_0 (22/6/14)

TheWiggman said:


> I agree with the batch sparging sentiments. I tried this to start with and it is a piece of piss. You really can't go wrong.
> With your original method, probably what's happening is the water was running straight through the grain and not getting much of a chance to soak up the remaining sugary goodness. Much will remain.
> 
> I think this is a good video and everybody loves to quote John Palmer:
> ...



Yeah. With the pH, I think it is worthwhile at some stage and it does contribute to both beer quality and conversion efficiency (or at least time). Correct sparge temp and technique and consistent mash temp will give you solid gains in your efficiency. 

From a bitter to an IPA I went from 55% to 73%. The 55% one I didn't adjust my water, I had air gaps in my mash tun (lost temp) and my sparging wasn't hot enough. The volumes, sparge technique and crush were consistent between batches. Consistent mash temp, hotter sparge and adding calcium got me am 18% lift.


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## marksy (22/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm using a rectangular/wide esky that I've modified into a mashtun for single step infusion.
> Currently, I'm achieving about 55-63% efficiency, meaning I'm wasting money on grain and time on boiling down.
> ...



Luke I have pm you a novel.


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## TheWiggman (22/6/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Yeah. With the pH, I think it is worthwhile at some stage and it does contribute to both beer quality and conversion efficiency (or at least time). Correct sparge temp and technique and consistent mash temp will give you solid gains in your efficiency.
> 
> From a bitter to an IPA I went from 55% to 73%. The 55% one I didn't adjust my water, I had air gaps in my mash tun (lost temp) and my sparging wasn't hot enough. The volumes, sparge technique and crush were consistent between batches. Consistent mash temp, hotter sparge and adding calcium got me am 18% lift.


Geez. Wouldn't have believed it if you didn't say it. 
Agree with "at some stage".


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## Adr_0 (23/6/14)

TheWiggman said:


> Geez. Wouldn't have believed it if you didn't say it.
> Agree with "at some stage".


I really can't measure the contribution of each but gut feel is that it might be a couple of percent - a bigger impact on quality anyway. If Luke1992 is still not getting the results after a few more batches of trying, it is worth investigating. I think Peaky dropping around will help a lot. 

Not sure what the water is like at Grafton but it might not be far off for most beers in which case 'great'. There will still be a wheat beer/pale lager or a stout that pulls the pH a long way from ideal and might end up as an anomaly with efficiency when everything else is going well.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

Apparantly Grafton water is supposed to be pretty good. But I have never used it so I dont know.


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## mxd (23/6/14)

how many batches have you done ? How long have you been brewing etc.. ?


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## Screwtop (23/6/14)

thebigwilk said:


> And that's based on your personal experience ?


Stu's been around a while brewers



TheWiggman said:


> I agree with the batch sparging sentiments. I tried this to start with and it is a piece of piss. You really can't go wrong.
> With your original method, probably what's happening is the water was running straight through the grain and not getting much of a chance to soak up the remaining sugary goodness.


Agree



S.E said:


> I would stick with fly sparging personally especially if you’re after efficiency. Try batch sparging for yourself also though and see what works best for you but fly is really not difficult after you’ve tried it once or twice. One of my mash tuns is similar to the op, I tried batch sparging in it initially but wasn’t impressed with efficiency around 70%. The same tun fly sparging I get 80% up to 85% if I mill coarse or barely cracked for a floating mash.
> 
> I would get gravity HLT ASAP though as jug/saucepan sparging is a bit of a pain even with a small batch.


Agree with the above. Many believe fly/continuous sparging to be difficult, mostly those who have only read about it or are batch spargers, no surprise! 

If you can get your HLT up above the mash tun then it's very easy to use gravity to run into the mash tun at the same rate as draining to the kettle to keep the level above the grist, until all sparge water has run in. Drain nice and slow, around 1 L/min. Believe me I'm a lazy brewer who strives for high efficiency, so my system was designed around fly sparging. There can be issues of astringency using all sparging methods. My system returns over 90% mash eff, without astringency so long as PH, sparge temp and volume are within brewing specs. 




Ducatiboy stu said:


> You would be suprised that even though you use boiling water, it doesnt raise the grain bed as much as you think. I at first thought it would scold the grains and do wierd things, but if you actually measure the grain bed after each runnings you will find that that it is not that severe..
> 
> I made a lot of pale ales this way and they where fine. I got this method of another brewer who produced state championship beers, so it cant be that bad, or wrong.


A very similar experience here, started out batch sparging 9 years ago and after issues of low eff was advised to drain the mash tun (first runnings) to the kettle and then to add boiling water for the batch sparge. Bingo up went the eff and no astringency.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

mxd said:


> how many batches have you done ? How long have you been brewing etc.. ?


Lost count after about 200 batches..


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## mxd (23/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Lost count after about 200 batches..


that q was to the op not you , he's only been on for a month or 2 and if he;d only done a few batches my recommendation would be to ignore efficiency at the moment, as long as it's close enough to 60% consistently your recipe will still work


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## JDW81 (23/6/14)

thebigwilk said:


> Not sure about the whole batch sparging with boiling water, the rule of thumb is don't go to far over 77c or with the mash at any stage or you risk extracting taninns which can produce undesirable flavours and haze in your beers.


Decoction???

Tannin extraction has more to do with pH than temperature.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

mxd said:


> that q was to the op not you , he's only been on for a month or 2 and if he;d only done a few batches my recommendation would be to ignore efficiency at the moment, as long as it's close enough to 60% consistently your recipe will still work


Consistency is the key. Once you get that then increasing eff% becomes easier.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

JDW81 said:


> Decoction???
> 
> Tannin extraction has more to do with pH than temperature.


Exactly.

Tannins only become a prob when you hit 88*c


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## JDW81 (23/6/14)

I'm not on stalk book so I can't look at the pictures of your gear, but out of interest what do you have in the bottom of your mash tun?

All the points people have made a valid, and well worth considering, but fly sparging requires either a decent false bottom or a well designed manifold to get decent efficiency. If you have a simple drainage system in your tun then fly sparging isn't really the best option. Batch sparging is the way to go for your first 15-20 AG brews while you work out your system and processes and start to build consistency. Knowing your gear is important, and how different aspects contribute to efficiency is also important.

Have a listen to the brew strong podcast on mash efficiency and they give a good explanation on why the manifold design is important.

You can get good efficiency with a batch sparge, and it is what I use even after having brewed AG for 5 years or so now. I run at about 75% total efficiency, but it took me about 10 brews the really nail it all down.

Best bet is to change ONE thing at a time and see if that makes a difference. Then change something else. 

JD


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

thebigwilk said:


> Not sure about the whole batch sparging with boiling water, the rule of thumb is don't go to far over 77c or with the mash at any stage or you risk extracting taninns which can produce undesirable flavours and haze in your beers.


Are you sure...

Who told you this....


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## S.E (23/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> I've got a false bottom I made out of a toilet/laundry pipe, see my FB link.


Ah ok, Just had another look at your pictures and you appear to be using a braid not a false bottom or manifold. In this case you will be better off batch sparging if using that.

If I was you I would take up peaky on his offer to come and show you how to fly sparge but ask him if he can bring his mash tun.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

Something else to consider is your dough in water to grain ratio. What ratio are you using ?


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## TheWiggman (23/6/14)

S.E said:


> Ah ok, Just had another look at your pictures and you appear to be using a braid not a false bottom or manifold. In this case you will be better off batch sparging if using that.


I use braided hose on the base of my MT and I get >80% effeciency. I haven't heard the podcast noted above but you can certainly get decent figures with braided hose fly sparging. Better efficiency fly sparging than batch spraging in my case anyway.


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## S.E (23/6/14)

TheWiggman said:


> I use braided hose on the base of my MT and I get >80% effeciency. I haven't heard the podcast noted above but you can certainly get decent figures with braided hose fly sparging. Better efficiency fly sparging than batch spraging in my case anyway.


[SIZE=12pt]Fair enough. I tried a braid in my esky before making a manifold and the efficiency was really crap around 70%-75% from memory. I didn’t persist with braid very long though to be fair. [/SIZE]


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## thebigwilk (23/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Are you sure...
> 
> Who told you this....


Well tell me what is your mash out temp?


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

Whats my mash out temp got to do with it


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

S.E said:


> Fair enough. I tried a braid in my esky before making a manifold and the efficiency was really crap around 70%-75% from memory. I didn’t persist with braid very long though to be fair.


I tried braid and a copper manifold, but I couldnt get them to work for me so I ended up going false bottom. 

Other brewers have great succes with braid or manifolds.

Either methods are just as good so its a case of whatever works for you, use it. There is no real rule.


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## thebigwilk (23/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Whats my mash out temp got to do with it


read post 66 again


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

So I am gathering you either cant or wont answer my question to you.

Prob a mix of both.

Just because a method does not "fall" within your rule of thumb does not mean it isnt effective or doesnt produce great beer. Obviously you havnt used it, and prob wont, use it. So dont knock it untill you do.

And decoction mashes dont fall into your rule of thumb so there probably crap as well.


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## thebigwilk (23/6/14)

Sorry mate not trying to up set you, we are all on the same page here brewing our own brews and enjoying them. In answer to your question where did I get the idea its not a good idea to raise the grain bed temp to much over 77c, it was from John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff on the brewing network. As far as decoction mashing goes well that's very different because you are only handling a small portion of the mash at one time and you are using the grains when they have the most amount of sugars in them. The tannin trouble starts when you sparge with too higher temps and with a thin mash i.e if you sparge too long with the sparge water temps too high.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

Which is most problematic with fly sparging.

I have had my grain bed at 80*ish ( sort of depends on the day ) at the end of my batch sparging. Getting to 88* can really get you into trouble.


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## bonj (23/6/14)

When you hear Americans talking about sparging, they are more often than not talking about fly sparging. They seem to love it. Batch sparging is more popular in Australia, and from what I've heard, the UK too. Listen to Stu and Screwtop. They are amongst the most experienced and knowledgeable brewers on this forum. I have personally sampled multiple beers from each of them and they know their stuff.


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## thebigwilk (23/6/14)

Cheers mate will take it on board.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/14)

Bonj makes a good point about how they more commonly refer to fly sparging in the USA. And a lot of brewers quote american sources.

It can be a trap.

Both methods effect your grain differently when sparging. You just need to be aware of the differences.


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## thebigwilk (23/6/14)

Thanks for making that clear you have been very helpful.


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## [email protected] (24/6/14)

I used to have the same problem but as soon as I got my own grain mill and started milling it a bit finer than Grain and Grape my efficiency improved straight away. Bit of a conspiracy theory but maybe G & G mill it that way so you buy more grain?


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## manticle (24/6/14)

I'm sure they make tons of bucks from all that extra grain. John has a helicopter tied to a yacht with a lamborghini engine and is often seen in Monaco cavorting with high class escorts.


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## GuyQLD (24/6/14)

[email protected] said:


> [email protected], on 24 Jun 2014 - 6:13 PM, said:
> 
> I used to have the same problem but as soon as I got my own grain mill and started milling it a bit finer than Grain and Grape my efficiency improved straight away. Bit of a conspiracy theory but maybe G & G mill it that way so you buy more grain?


I'm sure it's far more likely they mill at a gap that suits most systems, lower efficiency perhaps but far less likely to cause stuck sparges.


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## Adr_0 (24/6/14)

manticle said:


> I'm sure they make tons of bucks from all that extra grain. John has a helicopter tied to a yacht with a lamborghini engine and is often seen in Monaco cavorting with high class escorts.


Was that.... I think that was.. Sar... Ca... Saar.. 

No, never mind. Carry on. 

In other news, it's not a crime to crush malt so that you get a solid beer and a safe - rather than stuck - sparge. Have never bought grain from them (can only fit so much in the back of a Lambo) so couldn't tell you.


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## mxd (24/6/14)

you can ask g+g to crush it twice, tel em it's for a BIAB


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/14)

Its a fine line between a good crush and stuck sparges.


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## bonj (24/6/14)

It's a fine, fine line between pleasure and pain....


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/14)

There is nothing more painfull than a stuck sparge.


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## mofox1 (24/6/14)

GuyQLD said:


> I'm sure it's far more likely they mill at a gap that suits most systems, lower efficiency perhaps but far less likely to cause stuck sparges.


I was perhaps overly critical of the crush of my lhbs. When my mill arrived i did my own at a finer grade.

My efficiency went up a heap, but I also had a much slower sparge. Note: I probably also did a *better* sparge too, hotter sparge water with a 10 - 15 min rest which I repeated. 

Next time you go, just ask for a finer mill setting and I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige.


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## Adr_0 (24/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its a fine line between a good crush and stuck sparges.


What's your take on moistening the malt before crushing? Have you tried it before, and do it again if so?


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/14)

Moistening helps. But you only want to use about 100-150ml per 5kg of grain. Get a big bucket, and tip your water in and mix well with your hand & arm. Then let it sit for 10-15min to allow the husk to absorb the water. If there is any water sitting in the bucket then you have used to much

If you use to much water or let it sit to long it will soften the inner kernel and make for a useless crush.


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## S.E (25/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I tried braid and a copper manifold, but I couldnt get them to work for me so I ended up going false bottom.
> 
> Other brewers have great succes with braid or manifolds.
> 
> Either methods are just as good so its a case of whatever works for you, use it. There is no real rule.


In what way couldn’t you get them to work for you, what problems did you experience? Do you mean they wouldn’t work at all or just bad efficiency or something?


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## S.E (25/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> There is nothing more painfull than a stuck sparge.


How often do you get stuck sparges? It may be worth your while trying a courser crush if it’s happening a lot.

I prefer to crush as course as I can depending on the grain, if the grain kernels are pretty even in size I barely crack them at all. This results in a floating mash, when you mash in the hot liquor will make the grain expand and crack further. Air in the kernels help them float so most of the grain bed is floating above the manifold. On my system I get the best efficiency like this, my fly sparge is more efficient with less channeling.

If the kernels vary in size greatly I crush finer to crack the smaller ones though. Efficiency drops but not as much as leaving too many uncracked kernels.
.
Another advantage to the floating mash and course crush is you never get dough balls. Just tip the grain in and give it a very quick stir and put the lid on the mash tun ASAP. Actually its best to stir the mash as little as possible if you overdo it the grain bed will collapse and not float.


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## Truman42 (25/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its a fine line between a good crush and stuck sparges.


It certainly is.
I had all sorts of dramas with stuck sparges (Well stuck mash actually as I reciculate through a herms) with my mill gap set at 1mm but I was using a drill motor which was way too fast. Since using a 60rpm wiper motor and adding a valve to throtle back the flow into the MLT to set the grain bed, I dont get any stuck sparges but my efficiency has dropped to around 65%.

Im hopeing with the new mill motor Im using which has an rpm of around 150 that I will get a slightly better crush and therefore better efficiency without having to adjust my mill gap or suffer from another stuck mash.


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## S.E (25/6/14)

Truman said:


> It certainly is.
> I had all sorts of dramas with stuck sparges (Well stuck mash actually as I reciculate through a herms) with my mill gap set at 1mm but I was using a drill motor which was way too fast. Since using a 60rpm wiper motor and adding a valve to throtle back the flow into the MLT to set the grain bed, I dont get any stuck sparges but my efficiency has dropped to around 65%.
> 
> Im hopeing with the new mill motor Im using which has an rpm of around 150 that I will get a slightly better crush and therefore better efficiency without having to adjust my mill gap or suffer from another stuck mash.


 I’m not sure if a slower motor speed alone will improve your efficiency any. I use a drill and crush fast especially crushing for a floating mash it fly’s through the mill.


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## Adr_0 (25/6/14)

Truman said:


> It certainly is.
> I had all sorts of dramas with stuck sparges (Well stuck mash actually as I reciculate through a herms) with my mill gap set at 1mm but I was using a drill motor which was way too fast. Since using a 60rpm wiper motor and adding a valve to throtle back the flow into the MLT to set the grain bed, I dont get any stuck sparges but my efficiency has dropped to around 65%.
> 
> Im hopeing with the new mill motor Im using which has an rpm of around 150 that I will get a slightly better crush and therefore better efficiency without having to adjust my mill gap or suffer from another stuck mash.


I would think channelling would be more of am issue there than grain crush... It tends to erode any benefit of recirculating.


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## S.E (25/6/14)

Adr_0 said:


> I would think channelling would be more of am issue there than grain crush... It tends to erode any benefit of recirculating.


Do you mean erode the benefit of fly sparging?


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## S.E (25/6/14)

Just saw recirculating through herms, sorry yes that too.


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## S.E (25/6/14)

I’ve found this old thread and detailed explanation of the floating mash.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/23624-floating-mashes/

Might be of interest if you are getting stuck sparges and/or poor efficiency.


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## Truman42 (25/6/14)

S.E said:


> I’m not sure if a slower motor speed alone will improve your efficiency any. I use a drill and crush fast especially crushing for a floating mash it fly’s through the mill.


A slower motor speed when going from drill 400 rpm to wiper motor 60 rpm didnt improve my efficiency it decreased it.

But it did stop my stuck mashes. The new motor which is around 150 rpm should give me a slightly better crush without having to change settings on my mill and hopefully give me better efficiency.
Of course I didnt add a new motor just to improve efficiency (Changing the gap could have done that) It just took to long to crush my grains with a motor going at 60 rpm with 8 kgs of grain.

Also I dont fly sparge I batch sparge and dont have any problems with channeling during the recirculation.

Motor speed does make a difference, I learnt that the hard way.


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## S.E (25/6/14)

Truman said:


> A slower motor speed when going from drill 400 rpm to wiper motor 60 rpm didnt improve my efficiency it decreased it.
> 
> But it did stop my stuck mashes. The new motor which is around 150 rpm should give me a slightly better crush without having to change settings on my mill and hopefully give me better efficiency.
> Of course I didnt add a new motor just to improve efficiency (Changing the gap could have done that) It just took to long to crush my grains with a motor going at 60 rpm with 8 kgs of grain.
> ...


Is it particularly difficult to open the gap[SIZE=11pt] a bit on your mill? [/SIZE]

Edit: Sorry forget that but In what way did motor speed make a difference?


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## TimT (25/6/14)

I suspect heat loss from the esky may be your main problem too.

I just do my mash on a pot over the stove with a thermometer with a bit of a stir every now and then. Not sure if the stirring helps.... I had bad efficiency problems in the past, hardly ever getting to the predicted gravity. Now I simply mash twice and the second mash (in fresh water) seems every bit as effective as a sparge would be. (I suspect sparging was my main problem before; the second mash allows me to rinse out some of the remaining sugars from the first mash, and get some more enzymatic action - basically, what a sparge would do anyway.) It's not especially time-consuming. I let the first mash go for half an hour through to three quarters of an hour; same for the second mash. So yeah, you could try a second mash.


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## Adr_0 (25/6/14)

TimT said:


> I suspect heat loss from the esky may be your main problem too.


Yeah, I think specifically air gaps.

Unless you're talking about Truman...


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/6/14)

S.E said:


> In what way couldn’t you get them to work for you, what problems did you experience? Do you mean they wouldn’t work at all or just bad efficiency or something?


Everything. Just could not get sucess. Its not to say there bad, it just didnt work for me. So I went false bottom.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/6/14)

S.E said:


> How often do you get stuck sparges? It may be worth your while trying a courser crush if it’s happening a lot.
> 
> I prefer to crush as course as I can depending on the grain, if the grain kernels are pretty even in size I barely crack them at all. This results in a floating mash, when you mash in the hot liquor will make the grain expand and crack further. Air in the kernels help them float so most of the grain bed is floating above the manifold. On my system I get the best efficiency like this, my fly sparge is more efficient with less channeling.
> 
> ...


Once I got my crush sorted I got no stuck sparges. But after more than 200 mashes, you would hope so.

Stouts, due to the higher amounts of roasted grain can be a bit more tricky.


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## JDW81 (26/6/14)

thebigwilk said:


> As far as decoction mashing goes well that's very different because you are only handling a small portion of the mash at one time and you are using the grains when they have the most amount of sugars in them. The tannin trouble starts when you sparge with too higher temps and with a thin mash i.e if you sparge too long with the sparge water temps too high.


A decoction should be about 1/3 of the mash give or take, and it should be a very thick portion of it so you are actually boiling a lot of grain. Tannins aren't an issue if your pH is correct. 

If you extract tannins at the end of a y sparge this has some to do with higher temps but more to do with rising pH as the run off gravity drops. Mash pH will rise as sparge run off gravity falls. If you control your pH then tannin extraction shouldn't be an issue. 


JD


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## Adr_0 (26/6/14)

JDW81 said:


> A decoction should be about 1/3 of the mash give or take, and it should be a very thick portion of it so you are actually boiling a lot of grain. Tannins aren't an issue if your pH is correct.
> 
> If you extract tannins at the end of a y sparge this has some to do with higher temps but more to do with rising pH as the run off gravity drops. Mash pH will rise as sparge run off gravity falls. If you control your pH then tannin extraction shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...


Without putting words in your mouth, if as a brewer you're likely to push pH up by doing a fairly drawn out/dilute fly sparge, it makes sense to make sure your mash starts at 5.2-5.3, rather than 5.5-5.7.


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## Truman42 (26/6/14)

S.E said:


> Is it particularly difficult to open the gap[SIZE=11pt] a bit on your mill? [/SIZE]
> 
> Edit: Sorry forget that but In what way did motor speed make a difference?


The faster the motor the more it tends to rip apart the grain husks as they are pulled through the mill. So even with a gap of 1.2mm you can still rip your husks apart too much and have too much flour.
Like I said I didnt change motors just to change my grain crush, but getting the motor at a constant speed then working from there is the first step. My mill is a PITA to set the gap as its a cheapo and the adjustment knobs seem to have made grooves into the barrel. So even when I use a feeler gauge and set the gap to 1mm it tends to close up slightly as I tighten the adjustment lock nuts. I have to go 1.2mm to get it to close up to 1mm.

I think my other problem with a stuck mash was not having a ball valve on my MLT return. I now start off with the valve almost fully closed until I set the grain bed then open it up to 1/2 way and leave it like that for the entire mash schedule.


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## Screwtop (26/6/14)

Truman said:


> The faster the motor the more it tends to rip apart the grain husks as they are pulled through the mill. So even with a gap of 1.2mm you can still rip your husks apart too much and have too much flour.
> Like I said I didnt change motors just to change my grain crush, but getting the motor at a constant speed then working from there is the first step. My mill is a PITA to set the gap as its a cheapo and the adjustment knobs seem to have made grooves into the barrel. So even when I use a feeler gauge and set the gap to 1mm it tends to close up slightly as I tighten the adjustment lock nuts. I have to go 1.2mm to get it to close up to 1mm.
> 
> I think my other problem with a stuck mash was not having a ball valve on my MLT return. I now start off with the valve almost fully closed until I set the grain bed then open it up to 1/2 way and leave it like that for the entire mash schedule.


As Truman says mill speed is also important. I use an adjustable 2 speed drill on the low speed setting with a low tech controller - a reusable zip tie around the handle and trigger to maintain around 250rpm 

Screwy


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## S.E (27/6/14)

Screwtop said:


> As Truman says mill speed is also important. I use an adjustable 2 speed drill on the low speed setting with a low tech controller - a reusable zip tie around the handle and trigger to maintain around 250rpm
> 
> Screwy


I guess the maximum speed would depend on the mill you are using particularly the rollers. I I have a Mash Master now which is very well made and solid but I have noticed it doesn’t like to grip and pull the grain through particularly at higher speed compared to the barley crusher I used previously.

I use a drill by hand and just speed up slowly till it feels right, the barley crusher was always happier at higher speed the Mash Master tends to sand the husk down a little before pulling it through. Never had a problem with husks ripping apart with either mill though.

The fastest I’ve used was a commercial three phase with surprisingly short rollers, about 7cm long from memory, just cut the string on sack of grain tip it upside down on the hopper and it chew through it at warp speed.


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## S.E (27/6/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Once I got my crush sorted I got no stuck sparges. But after more than 200 mashes, you would hope so.
> 
> Stouts, due to the higher amounts of roasted grain can be a bit more tricky.


I have never had a stuck sparge and make a lot of Irish stouts. I also vary my crush a fair bit. I made an Irish stout yesterday and closed the gap to the first mark on my MM mill (looks about 1.2mm-1.5mm I’m guessing) no stuck sparge but my efficiency dropped to 75%. Not blaming the crush entirely though I also stuffed up the sparge a bit and let the grain bed compact.

I believe false bottoms are more prone to stuck sparges than manifolds. I’m making myself a new MT with a false bottom so may start experiencing stuck sparges soon. I’m usually of the opinion if it’s not broken why fix it but want to try new brewing toys.


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## Trevandjo (27/6/14)

S.E said:


> I guess the maximum speed would depend on the mill you are using particularly the rollers. I I have a Mash Master now which is very well made and solid but I have noticed it doesn’t like to grip and pull the grain through particularly at higher speed compared to the barley crusher I used previously.


Slightly off topic. Why did you give up the Barley Crusher then? Reason being I'm trying to decide between the 2.

Trev


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## S.E (27/6/14)

Trevandjo said:


> Slightly off topic. Why did you give up the Barley Crusher then? Reason being I'm trying to decide between the 2.
> 
> Trev


I didn’t give up on the barley crusher I think it gave up on us eventually. It belonged to another club member who semi donated it to the club after he turned pro and crushed all his grain at the brewery.

Anyone and everyone used it so it got very little rest and was quite worn last time I saw it. I bought myself the Mash Master, its well made and looks as though it will last forever but doesn’t crush as well or at least as fast as the barley crusher and other mills belonging to friends that I have used.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/6/14)

What size are the MM rollers diameter..?


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/6/14)

S.E said:


> I believe false bottoms are more prone to stuck sparges than manifolds. I’m making myself a new MT with a false bottom so may start experiencing stuck sparges soon. I’m usually of the opinion if it’s not broken why fix it but want to try new brewing toys.


The trick is getting the right size screen for your false bottom. If its to fine it will block up and if its to course the grain will fall thru. From memory I think the optimum hole size is 5/32" ( 3.9mm) with a ratio of about 50% opening. For a sloted FB the slot width is about 3/32 ( 2.3mm)..

Its not easy to track down the right perforated sheet so you may have to adjust your crush to suite whatever you can find.

This is why there are no real hard n fast rules as everyone has a different setup and its a matter of fiddling around to get things to work best.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/6/14)

Some interesting reading about lautering.

http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/2001/w1/evans.htm


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/6/14)

Some good reading in these articles

http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/2001/w1/goldsmith.htm#TopOfPage

http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/2001/w1/evans.htm 

There are a number of good articles on that site that will help to improve your mashing and sparging/lautering.


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## marksy (3/7/14)

How did the original poster go with all the responses?


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