# Intermediate Stovetop Techniques



## Nick JD (9/7/11)

Since the Move to All Grain for Thirty Bucks thread has had forty thousand hits I thought it'd be an idea to do a thread about taking it to the next level for those who are still using the technique and haven't moved to bigger vessel BIAB or multi-vessel setups. 

Of the other two tutorial threads I've done, I use neither techniques - the 30 Bucks thread was to show the most budget way to trying AG brewing; the 20L tutorial was to show high-gravity brewing and to illustrate a technique where "full sized" batches could be made in the kitchen. So I thought about another thread outlining techniques that over the years I've found work well with StoveTop brewing - especially to those who don't intend to move to a bigger vessel. Most of these methods can easily be scaled up though. 

An it's with a heavy heart though that I must inform, there will be no Green Bucket in this thread. Sadly, the Green Bucket has been relegated to vehicle-washing duties and has been tainted with soap residue and as such has been demoted to living in the shed with an old, musty cloth as its only company. 

Let's move on. 

_*A Simple Single Decoction Mash for a Bohemian Pilsner.*_

If you know about decoction mashing then you might as well skip this bit, but if you don't, here's what decoction mashing is: 

_Taking some of the mash out, boiling the shit out of it, and adding it back to the mash._

That's pretty much it. That, and when you return the boiling mash part back into the mash ... it's going to raise the temperature of the mash. This is a handy thing.

There are long, involved decoction mashing techniques, and they would suit a thread called Advanced Stovetop Techniques, but this isn't that thread - so we'll do a single decoction because it's easy, and achieves what we're after - 1. changing the flavour slightly 2. changing the colour slightly 3. creating more head retention and 4. upping our efficiency.

Here's a bloody graph. At least it's not an equation, but it's handy to describe what is being done.







As you can see, at the start we'll have a short protein rest, then we add some boiling water to bring it up to the sacc rest (the normal mash), then after 45 (I do 60) minutes we scoop a bunch of the mash out and boil the crap out of it - pour it back in the pot, and pull the bag out. Easy. 

Enough typing. Time for pictures. Here's some grain.






This grain is a slightly different strain of pilsner grain, and you can really tell by it's flavour. When you drink a good Boh Pils, much of that flavour is actually the grain - I've made a few experimental Ales with it and it's quite incredible how strong-tasting this grain is. You need to get some to do this kind of beer justice.

Here's 3.5kg of it. That's the whole grain bill.






The recipe is:

19L
3.5kg Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner
32g Czech Saaz 60min
22g Czech Saaz 30min
17g Czech Saaz 15min


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

Now we have the grain blitzed up, we need some water in the pot for our mash. Aiming for about 2.5L for every kg of grain we need 2.5 times 3.5 (kg), which is just about 9.

So in the 19L pot we need 9L of water.






The pot weights about 1.2kg, so I put that much water in it so it get to about 10kg. Those are the bathroom scales I use to monitor my beer belly's gestation period. It's nearly due.

Now, everyone knows about Strike Temperature now, and how to find a calculator online to work it out. When I plug my specifics into an online calculator it says I need 58C water so when I bung the grain in it'll be 52C, like on the graph you ignored. For the Protein Rest.






And whatdoyaknow ... chuck the grain in, give it a paddle ... and it worked! (Both those temp readings are slightly off because managing to take a photo with my left hand while trying to stop the lens fogging, and wiping the thermometer to see the red line is freakin' difficult). 






An Alarm is REALLY HANDY here. Sorry for the shouting, but it takes a big source of error out (wandering off to water the garden with a beer in hand and end up changing the mower's sparkplug).






Since this protein rest is such a short rest, I don't worry about insulating the pot.


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

Barley Belly said:


> Did a cow shit on your scales???



It's years of Epoxy Resin, Polyester Resin and Polyurethane Foam. Not much gets into the beer.


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

I got this Kettle years ago from one of the Mega stores. It was cheap and is bloody great - you can get it to go to any temperature within 5C. Here's it's set to 95C just to show how it works ... but it's set to boiling, I put it to 95 because boiling is a squiggle, and that means shit in the photo.






So the protein rest is finished. It was 15 minutes long in the low 50s. Now we need to do the sugaz rest. I want this to be 66C, so the kettle has 2L in it boiling.

We keep adding 2L boiled kettles until it's at 66C. Pretty simple. 






It took nearly three 2L kettles full to get to 66C. It's important to stir like buggary here as you want the temp readings to come from a well-mixed mash.






There.






Sleeping bag and towel.






Alarm set for 60 minutes.






The graph says to mash for 45, but I do it a little more just to make sure it's all sugaz and no flourz.


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

So the saccrification step of the mash at 66C is done. So it's time to scoop out about 1/3 of the mash. Some people only scoop out the really thick grain part, and some people scoop out a bit of the grain and a bit of the liquid ... I get a reasonably sloppy mix, mainly because the thicker it is, the more likely it'll burn ... and you fully don't want that. This way, I hardly have to monitor it when I boil the crap out of it.

Decocted third in another pot being brought to the boil slowly (10 minutes from 66C to 100C).






Time for a Citra Ale.






Starting to boil (stir stir stir).






Boiling. Set the alarm for 25 minutes (the amount of boiling time and the amount of the mash boiled will affect the colour and the flavour - experiment).






Time for a Ricey Galena Lager (galena is the world's most underrated hop, but that's another story).


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

It's boiled for a fair while and has got a little bit darker - not much, but a little bit. Smells wonderful.






Time to return it to the main mash. What we're effectively doing here is a mash out. But since it's at the very end we don't need to aim for any particular temperature - but I guess it'll be a decent mashout temp.

Decoction goes into the mash.






Some of the grain is left in there, but no worries. Rinse that out.






Main mash with decocted part returned at mash out temperature.






Bag tied up, ready to drain.


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

The bag is draining (and squeezed) into the same pot that was used for boiling the decoction.






I rinsed the bag out with 2L of 75C water and returned it all to the pot. Ready for the boil.






We've got 14L of 1.037 at 72C. That's 14L of 1.061 at room temperature. Time for some maths.

14/19 = 0.736

0.736 x 61 = 44.9 

So diluted to 19L, we've got 1.045 ... which is bang on for a Boh Pils. With a bit of trub loss it'll be about 1.042. Close enough. It's a keg full.

While the pot is coming to the boil, it's time to sort out the hops. 






We need 32g for the 60 minutes of the boil (boil time is 60 minutes - many do 90+, but I can't be arsed). Some Boh Pils are quite bitter. I prefer mine a little more tame, IBUs in the 30s not 40s.






Note the BIG bag. Bigger the better. The hops when contained this way need to be free to move. Picture the amount of tea in a tea bag.






Like this.






Boiling.






Don't forget to put some whirlfloc on the bench to be added with the 15 minute hop addition. It'll clear up the wort like nobody's business.






And here we are at the end of the boil. Lost the requisite amount of liquid to lose the boiled cabbage chemicals. 






So, the protein rest went in at 3:40 and "flameout" was at 7:15. The wort is no-chilled in the pot and decanted off the break material into the fermenter the next day and diluted at 20C. 






You can see the flecks of coagulated hot break starting to sink and the resultant clear wort.

Lager yeast is added and the temperature controller is set to 12C. No diacetyl rest is done. It gets gelatine and polyclar at FG and transfer to keg. 

Happy brewing. :icon_cheers: There are a few other Stovetop techniques like a Belgian Triple and an IPA that can probably be thrown into this thread when I get round to making them next.


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## Dazza88 (9/7/11)

Very nice, nick. I have stepped mashed up the temp but never tried decoction before. Will have to score some boh pils malt.

Do you make water adjustments?


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

DazDog said:


> Do you make water adjustments?



No, but I should. Needs to be a bit softer.

To do a faithful Boh Pils requires so much dicking about I find unless you're trying to win comps, it's a lot of effort to make a great beer into a supurb beer.


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## Nick JD (9/7/11)

I just this minute (all that above was yesterday) put it in the fermenter with some yeast.

The yeast is S189 (there are more accurate yeasts, but _the_ yeast H-strain is a pain in the ass and takes ages to ferment out. S189 at 12C is very neutral. The Weihenstephan yeast is also a goer.

It's a 300ml bottle of trub I saved from my last lager (hallertau german-ish pils). Been warming to room temp all morning.






Have a bit of a drinkie to make sure all is well. No worries. Mmmm, first taste of this beer (even over the slight truby taste) and I'm looking forward to that keg. 






Into the ferm fridge at 12C. The wort is currently at 19C, but will be at 12C in about 18 hours - which is great for yeast growth.


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## Wolfman (9/7/11)

Yet another awesome thread Nick.


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## Lodan (9/7/11)

Thanks for another good instructional thread Nick.


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## adz1179 (10/7/11)

great stuff :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (10/7/11)

Brilliant walk through Nick, as usual.

Our other forum member RdeVjun in Toowoomba has also been doing all this stuff as well so it's becoming a very "mature" technology around the place. Rde picked up a couple of impressive wins both in the State Comp last year, and was runner up at the Spotted Cow IPA comp. I know Nick's not into comps which is his "thing" but I'd love him to have a go at the State this year and show them where the cow sits in the cabbage patch. :kooi: 

I've quaffed many a beer made by variations on the 20L pot "Maxi BIAB" system presented above and I can personally recommend going this route. In fact if I were starting over again I would probably have gone this method if it had been pioneered at that time (or pioneered it myself whatever  ) and not even gone the urn system. 

Boring historical speculation: they _almost_ stumbled on all this in the 1970s in the UK when they were using 23L electric bruheat boilers with a grain bag. Almost, so agonisingly close, but they just didn't quite get that Road to Damascus thingo as they were still firmly inside that square thinking "tower brewery system, tower brewery system". 

If they had done so, I reckon BIAB in all its forms would have quite simply become the default home AG system. 

</end boring historical speculation>


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## Bribie G (10/7/11)

SOMEWHAT OFF TOPIC REALLY GRATUITOUS SPECULATION (HENCE SEPARATE POST) SO SKIP THIS POST BY ALL MEANS

:icon_offtopic: 

Ok at the risk of seriously rocking a boat or two:
The founding fathers of BIAB quite understandably promoted the system as a simple one pot, full water volume no sparge system. Therein lay its main attraction, as well as producing excellent beers.
A downside of this "keep it as simple as possible and don't mention the S-word" approach was that you needed a serious pot to start off with - either with an equally serious burner or an electric urn, the bigger the better.

This presented a bit of a bar to jump over initially and you can bet that it steered a lot of beginning AG brewers to using the eski they already had in the garage, and building up a 3V system a bit at a time - which you see all the time in the AG beginners threads.

However once it was demonstrated that you can use a smaller pot, do a sparge, (shit I said the S-word h34r: )even brew over gravity and adjust the strength down, etc, it was very easy to brew cornie-sized or bigger batches with little extra effort, far less expenditure and as demonstrated, good quality results. 

I still love my urns and enjoy the dead simple procedure of full volume BIAB but I wouldn't be at all surprised if many new brewers getting into AG using Nick and Rde's (and others who have posted) methods just not seeing why they should invest more cash and go onto other systems. I reckon we should definitely try to get one of the guys to brew at the system wars day for the upcoming Brisbane Home Brewing conference. :icon_cheers:


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## RdeVjun (10/7/11)

Yeah BribieG, IMO there's nowt much wrong with the method Nick has laid out here, there's a few ways to slice a Stovetop BIAB decoction (or any decoction for that matter) and this would be one of the simplest. Cheers Nick! :icon_cheers: 
I encourage brewers to try 100% base malt and decoction, the results are often superb. One variant would be to decoct from protein rest to saccharification, then again to mashout. However I'd recommend just one decoction step initially to keep it simple, this method demonstrated is probably the least risky in terms of hitting the right temperatures as mashout can land just about anywhere without negative results.


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## wombil (10/7/11)

Hey Nick or anyone,
I don't have temperature control so what would be the result of using S149 at 18 deg. or changing to US-05?
Thanks ,
wombil.


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## Bribie G (10/7/11)

If you mean S-189 then Bacchus Brewing do most if not all of their lagers at 19 using either S-189 or S-23

Actually picking some S-189 up off Ross during the week as my garage is a loverly 18 beer incubator at the moment and hopefully will remain so till September.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/7/11)

Great guide, Nick.

As BribieG & RdeVjun say, BIAB can be used for mature beers.

I personally have (finally, I must admit) decided to not get an urn. My method is an amended version of the stovetop method, and with Rde's help, I'll make a minor couple of alterations and produce a double batch (yes 45 or so Litres) on the stovetop.

Not an issue to not "progress", so long as the beer is good, and the method you use works for you (and probably that you can improve beer quality by refining, rather than changing methods.

Cheers

GOomba


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## kocken42 (10/7/11)

Nick JD for PM


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## Maheel (10/7/11)

My Little Pony said:


> Nick JD for PM



as long as he says NO to the carbon tax..... even the price of Malt is going to increase heaps .....


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## Goofinder (10/7/11)

I would call that a decoction mash out, not a decoction mash. For a decoction you usually take a thick portion of the mash with only a little water. I think you'll find that by boiling with so much liquid you will denature the enzymes. 

Not really a problem with a mash out as that's the point of a mash out. If you took such a thin decoction for an earlier step I think your efficiency might suffer and not end up with quite the result you were after.


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## Nick JD (11/7/11)

Goofinder said:


> I would call that a decoction mash out, not a decoction mash.



True. 

In another thread called Advanced Stovetop Techniques, where a triple decoction or a double hochkurz decoction is done, then sure - the decoction is pulled with a strainer - but in this case, as you say, it's more important for the decoction to be thinner. It's also a good idea to convey techniques applicable to the confidence level of the audience, starting with less-likely-to-scorch methods, than to try to show everyone you're smart and confound the poor brewer. Being blinded by brewing science seems to be a prevalent theme on brewing forums as the brewgeeks intellectually disseminate a once simple topic in bursts of self-appointed brilliance. A burnt decoction is akin to a festering fermenter - a drawing board situation. Most descriptions of the single decotion mash specify taking a watery decoction - and this is why I chose this as intermediate tutorial material.

The intent of this thread is that after trying this, brewers unfamiliar with decoction techniques will read up on it and find the jump and the nomeclature easy; just as my earlier attempts at helping people move to AG were never meant to replace "full sized" brewing or multi-vessel brewing, but to be leg up. Just trying to make the stepping stones a little less slippery.


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## Nick JD (14/7/11)

Now we've got a simple stovetop decoction out of the way, it's time to illustrate a Stovetop Step Mash. 

_*A Hefeweibier*_ (see the funny big "B", it's a SS - no, not that kind of SS) _*Step Mash.*_

First, we need a little background of step mashing. Basically, we're holding the mash at a particular temperature to get what we want from the grain.

Initially, we want to extract some Hydroxycinnamic acid (and if that sounds like cinnamon then you've got it already). It's called a ferulic acid rest, which is the name of the group of compounds. The yeast changes this into the "clove" character of these beers. *45C*

Then we want a short protein rest - like in the previous tutorial, to up the head retention of the beer. Those who know wheatbeers know head retention is a big plus with this style. We want a head that resembles ice cream. *52C*

After this there's the maltose rest at the low end of the sacc rest scale. We want to make a bunch of easily fermentable sugaz here. *62C*

Then we do a hot rest to get the dextrines that give body to the beer, and also aid head retention. *72C*

And we mash out. *78C*

Since we're applying megajoules of Stovetop POWER to the bottom of the 19L pot, it's a good idea to get into SWMBO's baking gear and rapidly disregard the "must be obeyed" bit. Get some pliers and her best teflon cake rack and bend the living crap out of the corners and jam it in the bottom of your pot.


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## Nick JD (14/7/11)

Now we have instigated the wrath of SWMBO, we need to blitz (German theme here) the hell out of some grain. Round half wheat, half pilsner - and I've thrown in 50g of carmel wheat to give it a tiny touch of colour, which is more to avoid that washed-out look wheaties can have.






We can get the Strike Temp here with a mixture of the hot and cold tap combined. It's a matter of blending the two with the thermometer in the tap stream until it's close - filling the pot shy a liter or two, and then fixing it with the required hot or cold addition. With 3.55kg of grain, we need a 48C Strike.

Which gives a 45C rest to make the loverly cloves.


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## Nick JD (14/7/11)

These first two rests (the acid and protein rests) are only *ten *minutes each, so there's no need to insulate the pot.






Now the cloves rest is done, we need to bump the temp up to 52C. I turn the stove's element to about 3/4 juice and stir constantly. I could probably be a lot slacker here, but I put on the new Foo Fighters album and stir away. It doesn't take long to get to *52C*.






Leave that for 10 minutes.

Then we need to apply heat again to get it to the 62C rest. To make the sugaz. This took me 12 minutes, with stirring. 

I've actually gone to 63C here, because this rest is *30* minutes long, and although I use insulation I get about a 1C drop in temp. 






And it's on with the towel and the thinsulate sleeping bag.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/7/11)

Nick, why the caketin false bottom, when you have a bag?

Goomba


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## Nick JD (14/7/11)

When the alarm goes off after 30 minutes, we can ramp it up to the *72C* rest for *30* minutes and put the insulation back on.






Then it's again heated up to 78C for the mash out. I'm pretty sure with this technique that if you want to avoid any of these steps, then this mash out at 78C is the one to not bother with. It's not like it takes ages to get the wort out of the grain. 

And the bag is lifted, squeezed and the sweet liquor brought to the boil (you know this bit well). The first hop addition (8g of Galena) is added to boil for 60 minutes. The second addition is 12g of Saaz at 15 minutes plus the whirlfloc.

We got 14L of 1.038 @ 75C, which is 1.062 at room temp. I think I'll dilute this one to 1.055 - which is about right for the style. 






Yeast is Wyeast's 3068.


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## Nick JD (14/7/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Nick, why the caketin false bottom, when you have a bag?
> 
> Goomba



Paranoia, mainly. You probably don't need one (polyester can handle a LOT of heat before melting), but I did it from the start and am too scared to not do it now.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/7/11)

Fair call. I'd probably take the same precaution, rather that take the risk of a couple of hours time.

Goomba


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## going down a hill (27/7/11)

Hi Nick

Thanks for your technique threads, they have been a great help with moving to all grain. I have put two brews down so far, the first went off like a dream, no problems with it at all (dark lager). But my second brew (A variation of DrSmurtos Landlord - Marris Otter grain with Perle hops to 30ibu's) which is currently in a cube, it was both step mashed from 65c to 78c and a decoction mashed but it has the slightest taste of tannin to it. Where did I stuff up? Will the tannin flavour subside or am I stuck with it?

Thanks again for a couple of great info threads.

GDAH


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## Nick JD (28/7/11)

going down a hill said:


> Will the tannin flavour subside or am I stuck with it?



How would you describe this flavour? And can you give more detail about your mash schedule? When did you pull your decoction?

Here's a good explaination about why decoction mashing breaks the "boiling grain" rule:

_The wort in mash is very concentrated, usually about 18–22 Plato. This means that the concentration of sugar is high. It also implies that the wort protein content is high as well since there have been no steps taken to remove protein from the wort, for example wort boiling and trub separation. During the mash boil in a decoction mash, protein from the malt reacts with tannins and precipitate. The pH is also “normal” (~5.2) at this point in time and the solubility of tannins is still relatively low compared to that seen in the last runnings from the lauter tun. I admit that the following statement is an educated guess but I would venture to bet that the reaction between protein and polyphenols is significant and explains why decocted beers are not overly astringent.
_
I like this explaination better:
_
We all know that tannins are a problem when sparging with water temps of 170+. Among others, John Palmer says that tannin extraction is a function of pH as well as temperature, and that tannins are only a problem when the pH rises to 6+.

When sparging, the mash may have a pH of around 5.2, but we are adding a load of water with a pH of between 7 and 8, so the result is a pH in the dangerous 6+ zone where tannins can be created, hence the problem.

By contrast, in a decoction only a small amount of mash water is taken with the grains to be boiled, so the pH stays at 5.2 or lower, which prevents tannins forming despite the decoction being taken to boiling temperatures._

I take about a 50:50 ratio of grain and liquid for the "mash out" decoction. For a triple decoction the pulled grain wants to be a "porridge" consistency. It doesn't boil, it "blurps". Must be constantly stirred.


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## flano (28/7/11)

Nice one nick.
I was actually just down the LHBS telling an old timer how I did BIAB's.
I had to explain it like a big tea bag.
He reckons he is going to get on here check out the original thread and have a crack.

by the way, just got home from Indo.
Went to G-Land...what a joint!!!
I am very Bintanged out though.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/7/11)

beernorks said:


> Nice one nick.
> I was actually just down the LHBS telling an old timer how I did BIAB's.
> I had to explain it like a big tea bag.
> He reckons he is going to get on here check out the original thread and have a crack.



Scary when the retailers are less knowledgable about the customer, given that knowledge is part of the experience and reason for a LHBS in the first place (and a tax deduction for making your own booze...... sort of).

Goomba


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## flano (28/7/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Scary when the retailers are less knowledgable about the customer, given that knowledge is part of the experience and reason for a LHBS in the first place (and a tax deduction for making your own booze...... sort of).
> 
> Goomba




nah ..the old bloke was a customer, we were just chatting....as you do.
He asked what I was doing with the grain I'd just got.
He was doing cans of goop.

man ...could he talk.
He was still going as I walked out the door.


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## Tanga (28/7/11)

Thanks for these threads. I'm on the verge of going BIAB AG and the descriptions of how the mash temps work and their purpose have brought me just a little closer. Mashing was a bit of a dark art to me. I got the vague idea, but not anything I could do myself. Your threads (and graphs) make it clearer. Me and my urn are getting excited. Might pop over to spotlight and get a price on tulle.

PS that wheatbeer sounds amazing!


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## Xarb (28/7/11)

Another great thread Nick. :icon_cheers: 

I've been step mashing for a protein rest in my lagers but I did it through infusion with near boiling water added to the mash. I wasn't sure if it was ok to raise the temp up slowly as my stove really struggles to heat my mash, next time I'll try it this way. 



Bribie G said:


> However once it was demonstrated that you can use a smaller pot, do a sparge, (shit I said the S-word h34r: )even brew over gravity and adjust the strength down, etc, it was very easy to brew cornie-sized or bigger batches with little extra effort, far less expenditure and as demonstrated, good quality results.


This is how I've felt since I started BIABing. I read a lot of people saying that if you don't keep BIAB in a single vessel you may as well be doing 3V. I couldn't bring myself to agree with this sentiment as using my spare fermenter for a cheeky sparge still seems a lot easier and cheaper than building a mash tun and all the other stuff that goes along with a traditional setup.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/7/11)

Xarb said:


> This is how I've felt since I started BIABing. I read a lot of people saying that if you don't keep BIAB in a single vessel you may as well be doing 3V. I couldn't bring myself to agree with this sentiment as using my spare fermenter for a cheeky sparge still seems a lot easier and cheaper than building a mash tun and all the other stuff that goes along with a traditional setup.



I do a dual at the same time Big W pot stovetop brew (which gives me a truckload of headroom) rather than Maxi-BIAB, and I use a spare 9L pasta pot with a pasta strainer insert as the "sparging vessel".

I tried to do the esky mash tun thing, and found that it didn't shorten the brew day, didn't give me better efficiency, didn't take any less effort and did run the risk of (my DIY skills being the culprit of this) springing a leak during a mash.

After a bit of PMing from RdeVjun - I will probably consider doing a Maxi-BIAB in 2 pots to get a double batch into my 60L fermenter, and thus fill two kegs at the same time.

Goomba


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## Nick JD (28/7/11)

Xarb said:


> I read a lot of people saying that if you don't keep BIAB in a single vessel you may as well be doing 3V.



I reckon it shouldn't be called a sparge with stovetop BIAB - more like a quick grain rinse and squeeze. Since this is high-gravity brewing, rinsing the grain is worth it if you can be bothered. It gives a couple of extra points of gravity for free.

Sparging is a mash tun method that can't be avoided. It's nice to be able to step mash without recirculating equipment. 

Remember though - bag stepping requires a lot of _stirring_. And delicate application of heat. You've got to be patient - although not as patient as someone waiting for their esky tun to drain...


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## Tanga (28/7/11)

So I checked out tulle today at spotlight.  In the wedding section. Great racks of the stuff. It was the 'cool wash only' bit that put me off. I presume this is the stuff though? White would be the go? I will be making a false bottom for it, but it did have largish holes. The fine stuff didn't look strong enough.


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## [email protected] (28/7/11)

Tanga said:


> So I checked out tulle today at spotlight.  In the wedding section. Great racks of the stuff. It was the 'cool wash only' bit that put me off. I presume this is the stuff though? White would be the go? I will be making a false bottom for it, but it did have largish holes. The fine stuff didn't look strong enough.



Are you talking bag material? 

if so you want the curtain section.

Swiss Voile White

100% Polyester

PLU: 1200206 - i assume this is some kind of product code, i kept the tag as i bought mine from the scraps bin for $1.20


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## Nick JD (28/7/11)

Beer4U said:


> Are you talking bag material?
> 
> if so you want the curtain section.
> 
> ...



+1 Polyester Swiss Voile

Mine's "ivory" I think. Dunno now - been through a few of them. 

Tempted to get a blue voile bag - to match my splonky splarge bucket. Does the dye run I wonder? Or will I just call it a "Blueberry Ale"?


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## Tanga (28/7/11)

LOL. Sounds interesting. Swiss Voile. I thought I had it wrong.

Do they have hot pink?


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## Nick JD (28/7/11)

Tanga said:


> Do they have hot pink?



Actually, I think they do! But unless you want to be the test pilot for dye fastness, go for the white.


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## going down a hill (28/7/11)

My notes in brew mate are "decoction mash with the medium kitchen pot (7L) for the last 20 mins of a 90 min boil. The whole mash was raised to 78 deg mash out." I didn't stir it too much because the grain was moving in the pot quite freely. About a 50 / 50 mix from what I recall.

The tannin flavour is like a faint tea taste to it, it's not overpowering but it's there. From reading the quotes you put down I think it may have arisen from the slight flurry when sparging and I used hot kettle water to sparge with.


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## Nick JD (29/7/11)

going down a hill said:


> The tannin flavour is like a faint tea taste to it, it's not overpowering but it's there. From reading the quotes you put down I think it may have arisen from the slight flurry when sparging and I used hot kettle water to sparge with.



If it has a faint "tea" taste then it's more likely to be a herbaceous tastes from the hops. Tannin doesn't have a "taste" as such, more of an astringency - like a moth puckering effect. 

That flavour you get from red wine, or the bottom of the teapot that's been sitting for an hour. It makes your teeth grindy. 

If anything it could be confused with a "sour" or a "bitter". It's a _dry bitter_.


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## Bribie G (29/7/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Scary when the retailers are less knowledgable about the customer, given that knowledge is part of the experience and *reason for a LHBS *in the first place (and a tax deduction for making your own booze...... sort of).
> Goomba




:icon_offtopic: The reason for the Bribie Island LHBS is to supply charcoal filters, essences, turbo yeast and dextrose. On and a few tins and bottle caps as well. 

on topic, last night at t'club I sampled a batch of Maxi-BIAB & decocted beer (Helles) against a Braumeister & decocted beer (Bo Pils) and despite the hopping difference I couldn't see five grand anywhere. Both very nice German style sippers.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/7/11)

Bribie G said:


> :icon_offtopic: The reason for the Bribie Island LHBS is to supply charcoal filters, essences, turbo yeast and dextrose. On and a few tins and bottle caps as well.
> 
> on topic, last night at t'club I sampled a batch of Maxi-BIAB & decocted beer (Helles) against a Braumeister & decocted beer (Bo Pils) and despite the hopping difference I couldn't see five grand anywhere. Both very nice German style sippers.



Did you ask for the recipe? I'm thinking that after I knock out an AAA/APA or two to fill stocks up, that I've got to get my summer brewing sorted now.

Goomba


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## Bribie G (29/7/11)

You could PM RdeVjun for his Helles recipe which came second in the State last year in the lagers IIRC - if he's willing to divulge :lol: 
The other one, the Pils, the brewer said it was Wey Pils (not the Bo one), about 10% Munich and straight Saaz, saaz, saaz. Not sure about the yeast.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/7/11)

Bribie G said:


> You could PM RdeVjun for his Helles recipe which came second in the State last year in the lagers IIRC - if he's willing to divulge :lol:
> The other one, the Pils, the brewer said it was Wey Pils (not the Bo one), about 10% Munich and straight Saaz, saaz, saaz. Not sure about the yeast.



I'll promise him not to enter it into a comp. I've been looking for a helles recipe.

It'll be interesting to try the other pils recipe. I've kegged (cracking it open on Sunday) a batch of german-esque lager using Swiss Yeast, 5% caramalt and 95% Baird's Perle Ale Malt, and Smaragd as the hop of choice. I'm interested to see how it goes - absolutely cheap-as recipe to make.

Goomba


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## Nick JD (29/7/11)

I done a couple of triple decoction (and realising full-well that although I may emulate Pilsner Urquell, I will never _clone the frecker_) lagers with 100% Floor Boh Pils and Saaz and WY2001 (oh the patience!) and it's the best lager I think I can make. 

But the same thing done without the decotions or the floor malted stuff, 5% Melanoidin, and S189 @ 12C is a fanny's whisker as good.

Did a Kohatu SMaSH yesterday with 100% Wey Pale Ale and 30 IBUs of Kohatu at 20 mins, and US05. Smelt like key lime pie boiling!

My 3 fermenters are full now: Cascade Amber Ale, Chimay Red and the Kohatu Ale. Kegs are A Boh Pils and a Belgian Wit. Good times.


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## flano (29/7/11)

my 2 cents worth here.
When hanging the bag....
I was getting wort everywhere when I hung the bag...now I do this and it is heaps cleaner...plus easier.
I just lift it up for about a minute to get the first rush of wort out then slip the fridge shelf underneath and let it sit for about 10 minutes.
Then I do a bit of sueezing etc etc.

up to the individual though.


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## wombil (29/7/11)

G'day Tanga,
The stuff to use is poly or swiss voille.At Spotlight I found it in the curtain section,I think it is used as backing.
It's 1.5 meters wide and I got 2 meters.Made hop bags out of .5 meters and had a 1.5 meter square to use as a bag.Just tie the top and it works well.Done 3 with mine and no problems.Forget what it cost but around $6 per meter I think.
Good luck with it.
Much too late,didn't see there were 3 pages.Have to look closer in future.


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## flano (29/7/11)

wombil said:


> G'day Tanga,
> The stuff to use is poly or swiss voille.At Spotlight I found it in the curtain section,I think it is used as backing.
> It's 1.5 meters wide and I got 2 meters.Made hop bags out of .5 meters and had a 1.5 meter square to use as a bag.Just tie the top and it works well.Done 3 with mine and no problems.Forget what it cost but around $6 per meter I think.
> Good luck with it.
> Much too late,didn't see there were 3 pages.Have to look closer in future.




yep ...dont bother making a grain bag the weight it too much for the stitching to handle.
The fabric is pretty hard to get a good sew joint ( my home ec teminology is a bit dodgy).
I paid for a seamstress to make me a bag and the stitching is starting to come apart.

Next time On ebig sqaure of fabric and tie in a not ...I think that is what Nck does going by the pics.


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## kocken42 (29/7/11)

I cut my voile into a large circle. It was a bit tedious but I got there in the end. I also singed (burnt) the edge to prevent fraying.

The circle works well as it forms a nice 'tear-drop' sack when the edges are gathered...no seams to break.


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## thylacine (29/7/11)

My Little Pony said:


> I cut my voile into a large circle. It was a bit tedious but I got there in the end. I also singed (burnt) the edge to prevent fraying.
> 
> The circle works well as it forms a nice 'tear-drop' sack when the edges are gathered...no seams to break.


 

Circle as well but elastic sewn around circumference. Bag stays secure.


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## RdeVjun (29/7/11)

No secrets as far as I'm concerned- just ask and ye shall receive! :icon_chickcheers: 
I think the QABC place getter is in the WAYBIII thread somewhere, maybe around early September. Pretty simple IIRC, 100% BoPils, protein rest, straight away pull around 3-4L of thick decoct, 10 or 15 minute boil of that to then lift saccharification to around 64C, long mash, long boil, 24- odd IBU Hallertau bittering (or any low- %AA noble), 2247PC or your favourite lager yeast at 10-12C. It should attenuate fully so be patient, lager well but do remember to give it a diacetyl rest beforehand, not like some clown who more or less skipped it (was rushed) and got pinged for that at the Nats!  
This year isn't all that different as far as recipes go, reckon 100% BoPils has a very faint background note which is like off dairy (its not just me, judges have noted something odd too), and while it is otherwise a supremely delicious malt, at least 20% ordinary Pils malt seems to either dilute or eliminate that subtle naffness. FWH with low- AA%, if you like some blatant noble hops character then use 0.5 to 1.0g/L flavour, the most recent one I did with some Ellerslie Saphire like that and so far it is just magnificent, but not really to style at the higher rate. It should be a thorough malt submission, even though attenuation is full, it is slightly sweet but not thick or chewy, exercising restraint with the hops is probably hard for IPAers, however it is really worth it in more ways than one.
Agreed, decoction is largely redundant with spec malts that are available, however IMO there's nothing quite like the fresh, crisp 100% base malt version, plus you learn a bit about the malt itself. :icon_cheers: 
Equipment is a whole other debate of course, but its most definitely diffrent strokes for diffrent folks! If you've got a BM, Sabco or whatever then that's fine and dandy, there's some very, very neat bits of kit out there, but as we've seen, stovetop and/ or itty bitty stockpots are capable of the top shelf stuff too.


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## Tanga (29/7/11)

Thanks for the info on the voile guys. No sew it is. :super:


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## ben_harvey (29/7/11)

Awesome thread.
I've only done 2 BIABS to date (second one still in the fermenter...) but will definately be giving this a go next. I'm anxious to add some extra steps to my brewing and perhaps "cross-over" to 3V at some later stage.
Well done.
Also kudos on the $30 thread, it was immensley helpful.

Ben


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## Nick JD (2/8/11)

RdeVjun said:


> ...at least 20% ordinary Pils malt seems to either dilute or eliminate that subtle naffness.



I kinda like that Hanka grain note - but I see where you're coming from. Will try this next batch! 

Have you tried the Floor Malted stuff?


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## RdeVjun (2/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> I kinda like that Hanka grain note - but I see where you're coming from. Will try this next batch!
> 
> Have you tried the Floor Malted stuff?


Yep, the Floor- Malted Weyermann Bo Pils, that's the stuff I've been using, drank my way through a couple of sacks- worth now, my FSM it was a mammoth effort! 
IMO the thing is with Munich Helles in comps at least, there's not a lot of room for even the palest spec malts without them becoming bleedingly obvious, so apart from single infusion, which is quite OK as far as a beer goes with BoPils, decoction is about all there is to brighten things up. Having said that, a few % of Melanoidin or a handful of Munich will get it over the line for most brewers if they're not into decoction, its a near as shit an' a goose.


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## going down a hill (25/8/11)

beernorks said:


> my 2 cents worth here.
> When hanging the bag....
> I was getting wort everywhere when I hung the bag...now I do this and it is heaps cleaner...plus easier.
> I just lift it up for about a minute to get the first rush of wort out then slip the fridge shelf underneath and let it sit for about 10 minutes.
> ...



This idea helped my brewday on Sunday. No mess and my effeciency went up. :beer: cheers


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## rbtmc (28/8/11)

Anyone tried dry hopping this brew? It's been in the fermenter for a week and I have some Saaz left over. Thoughts?


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## RdeVjun (28/8/11)

rbtmc said:


> Anyone tried dry hopping this brew? It's been in the fermenter for a week and I have some Saaz left over. Thoughts?


Nah, I wouldn't. Keep the leftovers for the next batch, it probably isn't to style- very few, if any, lagers are dry hopped.
By all means be creative with your brewing, but in the initial stages I'd just stick to the recipe, otherwise it can become difficult to untangle the effects of creativity from faults in process. :icon_cheers:


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## thylacine (5/11/11)

going down a hill said:


> This idea helped my brewday on Sunday. No mess and my effeciency went up. :beer: cheers




BigW pot with a Woolies sourced cooling rack. Note each corner has a 'leg' which neatly locks the rack onto the pot. Initially used bulldog clips rather than pegs.


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## MarkBastard (5/11/11)

Bribie G said:


> I still love my urns and enjoy the dead simple procedure of full volume BIAB but I wouldn't be at all surprised if many new brewers getting into AG using Nick and Rde's (and others who have posted) methods just not seeing why they should invest more cash and go onto other systems. I reckon we should definitely try to get one of the guys to brew at the system wars day for the upcoming Brisbane Home Brewing conference. :icon_cheers:



This is just my personal opinion:
I went from stovetop partials (almost the exact same principle as Nick's methods except you use a bit less grain and add a tin of liquid malt extract at flameout) to all grain in an urn and I like the urn process a LOT more. Having a tap alone was very handy. Each to their own and all that but it's my opinion that going to an urn made my brewing experience a lot more pleasurable. Being able to brew outside the kitchen was also a bonus for me.


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## Nick JD (5/11/11)

I just mashed in without adding the bag. With a 55C strike and too much grain - so I pretended I did an acid rest. 

Then I slopped grain and gritty liquid all over the kitchen floor transfering it into a bucket which was too small, so I got another bucket and slipped on the gritty acid rest liquid and did the splits a little bit and now I have a groin strain and the mash is like, now about 40C, in two buckets and the voile bag is still hanging on the Hill's Hoist. 

So I get it into the pot with the bag in it finally and start adding coffee kettles of boiling water while measuring the temperature, but I forgot to check that SWMBO had left the kettle on "75C" for her morning tea, so the first 2L hardly brought the temp up at all. 

So I keep adding boiling water and looking at the thermomenter and it says 61C finally - and the mash is finally looking the correct colour and not all floury and in the 50s - and I have about 2 inches of freeboard.

The final batch of boiling water got it up to 64C and there's about 5mm (no shit) of pot showing. An 18.7L mash in a 19L pot. 

What's not to like? :lol:


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