# Yeast Of The Week 21/4/09 - Kolsch - Wlp029/wyeast 2565



## Stuster (21/4/09)

So after a few requests (and a bit of procrastination), I thought we could skip from Style of the Week to Yeast of the Week (partly because there aren't that many styles left to cover). The idea is that we look at some of the great yeasts out there (liquid and dry), people can vote on if they like the yeast and discuss how they use the things. This week I've chosen the Kolsch yeasts from the two big liquid boys as these are yeasts that might be pretty versatile, but ones that maybe not everyone has used before.

What styles do you use it in, what styles does it just not work for?
Any tricks for how to manage it - fermentation temperatures, starter sizes, re-using it by top-cropping or using the slurry, does it need rousing or will it conk out in high gravity beers?
There may be some difference between the two supposedly comparable yeasts so if you've used both then what differences did you notice and which one would you prefer for what?
Anything else you like or dislike about this yeast?

Anyway, hopefully something of interest and a thread people can look back at when they are thinking of using a new yeast. :icon_cheers:



Edit: Just links to the White Labs yeast here and the Wyeast one here. The White Labs page has a lot of info on the style, including an audio segment by Chris White on this strain.


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## newguy (21/4/09)

2565 is essential for a good kolsch. It also makes a fantastic IPA or IIPA. Keep the fermentation temperature relatively low (approx 18C max) and it won't give many esters, if any. It will give a very low vinous quality which is hard to pick out, but very good in a kolsch. The only drawback is that it won't flocculate at all - only a long period of cold storage (6-8 weeks+) will drop it out of your beer. This helps give the high attenuation necessary for a good kolsch, which tends to accentuate hops.

I've personally never used 029 but a friend made a kolsch with it and I thought it was gross. It smelled like cheap perfume - very floral - like an old lady would wear. The beer did very well at one competition (took BOS actually) but at another comp a month later it didn't even medal. It seems as though it's very much a love it or hate it yeast.


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## petesbrew (21/4/09)

I used 029 just over a year ago in my first partial, an alt. Smelt really foul (the rotten egg smell) when brewing. I was a bit worried, but it turned out great.
Went to use it again the other week in a quick knk schwarzbier, but the starter took to long to kick off. Still, I've got it in the fridge waiting for another day.


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## mje1980 (21/4/09)

I used the 2565 a while ago in a kolsch . Was very very good. Would use it again.


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## Fatgodzilla (21/4/09)

Used both without really spotting any difference. The truth with Kolsch yeast is not the variety but how you treat it. It needs a longish cold lager time to clear up brew and optimal fermentation control. When done right, kolsch is my favourite clear ale. 

The current issue of BYO has a good article on Kolsch and is a simple introductory read on the style for noobies.


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## Stuster (21/4/09)

Bumping this up again for the afternoon traffic.

I've used the White Labs one in a couple of beers. Seemed to work ok for me in an APA as a clean yeast with reasonable attenuation.


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## Josh (21/4/09)

I've used the WLP029 in a kolsch. I was sharing with 2 guys last year and the kolsch seemed to go the quickest on tap. I fermented around 16C from memory. Didn't have any attenuation problems.


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## Duff (21/4/09)

I love 029, and have used it in Kolsch, APA, IPA, Alt and Firkin Bolter. Am also going to try in a pseudo Czech Pilsener as the attenuation (normally over 80%) should provide a nice crisp beer. I figure if 810 San Francisco lager can be fermented up to 18C, then 029 should provide just as good, if not better, result. Very versatile yeast.

I've tried three smack packs now of 2565 and all have failed (poor result in general). Don't know why as the starters have been the same as when using 029 (all grain). Will stick to the trusted White Labs.

Cheers.


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## Steve (24/4/09)

Doing a double batch of Koelsch on Sunday with WLP029. 90% Pils, 10% Wheat, Perle for bittering, hallertaue for flavour and aroma. Will let you know how it goes. Looking forward to brewing my first Koelsch!
Cheers
Steve


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## wobbly (24/4/09)

My one and only experience with Wyeast 2565 was my latest brew It started out with an OG of 1050 and around 25 lt into a 30 lt fermenter the starter was a health 2 lt (making 27lt in the fermenter) after about 36 hours it was a gusher and I lost most of the yeast out through the air lock. After a week at 15C when I racked it to secondary it had only dropped to 1023 after a further 5 days it was only down to around 1020 so I pitched a further around half a cup of 2565 yeast harvested from some one elses batch and fermentation has kicked in again. Will leave it until mid next week and see what the SG is down to before cubing and cold chilling for a few weeks.
So my experience is make sure you don't over fill the fermenter otherwise you run the risk of a gusher and loosing a significant amount of the top cropping yeast leading to a stuck fermentation


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## Fents (24/4/09)

I've used 2565 twice for kolsch's. First was a starter from Quinterx (Biggups Q!) for a case swap but i did not treat it right. No ferm control and i left it in primary to long.

Second go was not long ago i brewed another batch now with a tempmate + fridge @ 16c, raised to 18c for last two days i belive it was one of the best beers i;d made to date. Put the keg on for my 30th and as soon as everyone worked out which fridge the BEST beer (kolsch) was coming from it got hammerd. 

IMO quintrex has made the best kolsch i've ever tasted he brought over a longneck one night (way before my first two attempts even), i'll never forget it, i fell in love with kolsch that night for the first time. kinda like when you find the right lady and that first awsome orgasm...you never forget it.

edit - really only problem is it never flocs well and takes forver to become clear which with a kolsch imo is essential...gelatine that bad bwoy.


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## mika (24/4/09)

Last time I used 2565 I was terribly unimpressed and haven't bothered to brew a Kolsch style since. It was clean and what have you, but just came thru as very bland and unexciting. Someone released a Kolsch II yeast and I heard that it was a lot better, but I think it was a VSS release and I missed out.


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## Barry (25/4/09)

I normally use Whitelabs but I use Wyeast 2565 for a Kolsch and their Scottish yeast for Scottish beers.


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## DennisKing (26/4/09)

Whitelabs man myself. Had a few failures with Wyeast. Now using Whitelabs Essex which is the area of the UK that I live. It is supposed to be from the now closed Ridleys brewery. First one ready in a few weeks.


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## Thirsty Boy (27/4/09)

I love the 2565 (never used the other one) - but I find that I hate almost every micro brewed kolsch I ever try, because they aren't clear. The kolsch yeast dont floc out - and I find that they have a very distinctive taste when left in suspension. Vomit. They taste like yeasty vomit. I assume that they haven't all been the same strain, so I reckon its common to Kolsch strains not just the 2565 (it certainly holds for the 2575 KoschII)

If the beer is fined or lagered or filtered etc and its crystal clear - then its a lovely lightly malty, lightly fruity, dry easy drinking beer and the mild yeast derived vinous characters are right up my alley. If there is any yeast left in it... it tastes like spew in a glass.

Great yeast - make sure none of it is left in the beer though.


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## raven19 (26/1/10)

mje1980 said:


> I used the 2565 a while ago in a kolsch . Was very very good. Would use it again.



I have gelatined the secondary, and used 2565 in a Kolsch. Tasty out of the fermentor already... :chug:


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## Keith the Beer Guy (26/1/10)

I love the Wyeast 2565. We use this at work (Hunter Beer Co. @Potters) for a couple of our beers.

It is an amazing yeast that literally can climb out of the fermenter. It usually ferments out very quickly if the yeast is in good shape - three days (two if the stars are in alignment) 1040-2 to 1006.

We ferment at 16C.

We harvest the yeast from our cones after crash chilling and nowadays use this yeast for about 8 generations. 

The Koelsch yeast is notorious for poor flocculation. I find that good processing is the key to overcoming this hassle; crash chilling followed by some nice hard cold conditioning in our dish bottom conditioning tanks (it doesn't work as well in the conical uni-tanks). 

The flavours that I find come through include a gentle tropical fruit salad character (maybe with a hint of extra pineapple) and a light honey sweetness. The yeast can also produce a tartness that is more noticeable if the beer is bottled conditioned (with 2565). During cold conditioning a sulfury note in the beer dissipates. An unwanted character that appears infrequently is a red apple aroma probably caused by our in-house processing.

Happy Brewing,

Keith


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## Benniee (7/7/10)

I thought I would drag up this old thread to see if anyone has experience with the Wyeast 2565 strain and using starters.

I've read a lot about this yeast not flocculating readily - so how do people handle their starters (if they're using one)? I would regularly decant the liquid off the starter before pitching the slurry - but if I do this using my normal procedure (crash chilling for 24 hours or so) then I'm likely to discard a fair portion of the yeast that remain in suspension and only select the more flocculant cells to pitch into my wort.

Anyone have any experience good, bad or otherwise when making a starter for this yeast?

Benniee


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## jbirbeck (7/7/10)

I"ve used this yeast a bit. Only recently did up a starter though as I have tended to use the yeast cake from a previous batch either from primary or secondary.

The most recent starter I pitched just the slurry having bottled off the 'beer' on top, it was an eight litre starter... it took off like a rocket and has done really well. The beer on top having fermented for the best part of a week was pretty well clear.

I suppose there are two ways to do it, pitch the lot (depending on the starter size) or let it run a bit longer to let it settle a bit more and just pitch the slurry. The starter may not be crystal clear but there is still plenty of yeast in the slurry to get it going. But I wouldn't be pouring off the beer too often as the Kolsch yeast in my experience has that massive krausen full of top yeast that you simply don't want to lose. Don't rush your starter, let it clear a bit (it doesn't take that long) and you'll be find to do just the slurry.


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## jakester (4/8/10)

This is my first attempt at a Kolsch after having one at Potters brewery so it was good to read that Keith uses the 2565 in his brew (great drop by the way). My starter took a while to go off but now that its in the fermenter at 17 degrees its going nuts. I have never seen so much krausen and it only took off sunday arvo. I've read that its a hard yeast to clear out so my question is, what is the optimum fermenting schedule for this beer and yeast? Usually i primary any beer for 5 days, collect the yeast slurry, then secondary for a week or so, but should i do it different this time? We have a temp. controlled fridge so no problems there. Cheers!


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## Benniee (4/8/10)

Ivesy said:


> This is my first attempt at a Kolsch after having one at Potters brewery so it was good to read that Keith uses the 2565 in his brew (great drop by the way). My starter took a while to go off but now that its in the fermenter at 17 degrees its going nuts. I have never seen so much krausen and it only took off sunday arvo. I've read that its a hard yeast to clear out so my question is, what is the optimum fermenting schedule for this beer and yeast? Usually i primary any beer for 5 days, collect the yeast slurry, then secondary for a week or so, but should i do it different this time? We have a temp. controlled fridge so no problems there. Cheers!



I'm yet to brew a Kolsch (it's 3rd in line on my brewing schedule), but from talking to other brewers and reading some info on the yeast the options appear to be crash chill then filter to remove any remaining yeast in suspension, or a long, cold lagering period to get the yeast to drop out.

Not having a filter I'll be going for the long lagering time - probably with some finings added to speed up the process a little.

Good luck with it - let us know what option(s) you take and how they work for you.

Benniee


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## jakester (4/8/10)

Thanks Benniee, i was thinking a crash chill would be the way to go but will have to do some research for temps and how long for i guess. I was just thinking after secondary dropping the temp down to 3 or 4 degrees for a couple of days? Does that sound right? 
I do have a filter that i have not used in ages, might use that on my next one to see what the difference will be. Bit of playnig around never hurt anyone.


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## BoilerBoy (4/8/10)

Benniee said:


> I thought I would drag up this old thread to see if anyone has experience with the Wyeast 2565 strain and using starters.
> 
> I've read a lot about this yeast not flocculating readily - so how do people handle their starters (if they're using one)? I would regularly decant the liquid off the starter before pitching the slurry - but if I do this using my normal procedure (crash chilling for 24 hours or so) then I'm likely to discard a fair portion of the yeast that remain in suspension and only select the more flocculant cells to pitch into my wort.
> 
> ...



Given a reasonable starters size I would just stick to your normal routine and it should be fine and if your still concerned just chill the starter a few days longer.

cheers,
BB


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## jimi (14/1/11)

Dragging this up again as I was wondering how people went using this yeast for lagers (pseudo) and how its performed?

I know a lot of micro's use it for their lagers, mostly for the quicker turn around, but they have filtering facilities which often we don't (ok I don't). since these yeasts take ages to floc did these faux lagers actually come up quicker or did people fine them out quicker?

I'm particularly itching for an oktoberfest, alt & schwarzbier and was wondering how 2565 would go?

Cheers Jimi


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## DJR (14/1/11)

An alt is an ale  

I have used it (2565) in a basic schwarzbier (mostly pils, some carafa/caramunich and about 15-20% munich) and it was pretty good, but it won't come out malty like a lager yeast will. For an Oktoberfest i'd use a lager yeast, for sure. The kolsch yeast just won't give you the same malt profile as a good lager yeast. It's clean though particularly at low temps (sub 15C) where it won't create the flowery/estery profile, but you will get a load of sulfur at those temps and the WLP029 has a specific instruction not to let it run that low.

If you want a fairly robust lager yeast i'd go for the swiss s-189 yeast or another good versatile choice is Whitelabs WLP833


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## jimi (14/1/11)

DJR said:


> An alt is an ale
> 
> I have used it (2565) in a basic schwarzbier (mostly pils, some carafa/caramunich and about 15-20% munich) and it was pretty good, but it won't come out malty like a lager yeast will. For an Oktoberfest i'd use a lager yeast, for sure. The kolsch yeast just won't give you the same malt profile as a good lager yeast. It's clean though particularly at low temps (sub 15C) where it won't create the flowery/estery profile, but you will get a load of sulfur at those temps and the WLP029 has a specific instruction not to let it run that low.
> 
> If you want a fairly robust lager yeast i'd go for the swiss s-189 yeast or another good versatile choice is Whitelabs WLP833




Hi DJR
Wyeast recommends 2565 for both types of ALTs as it is a kind of hybrid beer (ale that traditionally gets lagered). 
Wyeast also states that it will ferment well in the 13-16C range so I wasn't expecting much sulfur. Was the sulfur something you've experienced? If so did you pitch cold (sub 15)?


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## DJR (14/1/11)

jimi said:


> Hi DJR
> Wyeast recommends 2565 for both types of ALTs as it is a kind of hybrid beer (ale that traditionally gets lagered).
> Wyeast also states that it will ferment well in the 13-16C range so I wasn't expecting much sulfur. Was the sulfur something you've experienced? If so did you pitch cold (sub 15)?



Heh - sorry, was splitting hairs as you were talking about lagers and then referred to alt, which as you say are hybrids 

WLP029 is the one that has "reported problems" with cold ferments - i've used 2565 and it's fine. I prefer WLP029 as it has some level of flocculation (2565 doesn't, it just settles, v.slowly) and i find the flavour profile better. I find both of them throw a bit of sulfur during the ferment but it goes away with some time, just like lager yeasts really


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## np1962 (14/1/11)

From the Whitelabs FAQ for this yeast(WLP029)



> I wonder if you could help me with my Kolsch. I'm looking to brew this as my next batch (40L). I notice from your information about WLP029 that it shouldn't be fermented at any less than 62F, which according to my calculations is 16.7C. What is your advice here?
> 
> For WLP029, people can experience problems under 16C, so we recommend that temperature, but many do ferment cooler. You just have to be more careful and keep an eye on the fermentation. With 029, you dont need to ferment that cool anyway to get the clean flavors, you can cool it during fermentation if you like, but I wouldnt the first time and see what you think.



In the description it recommends keeping above 16C EXCEPT during active fermentation, not real sure what they mean by this.

Cheers
Nige


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## jimi (14/1/11)

To date I've only used 2565 for a Kolsch, which came up nice, but I ran it a bit above 16C (about 17-18C for much of the ferment) and got just a touch of a chardonnay flavour that I was told is true to traditional Kolsch. It seemed appropriate for the Kolsch, but I wouldn't want it in a lager. If/when I use it for a lager I'll pitch extra big and keep it lower than the 16C. 
Am I correct in assuming whitelabs & wyeast strains differ a bit in the sub 16C performance, or is that just wishful thinking??

I notice some sulfur during the ferment with 2565 but absolutely nothing in my finished beer. I've tasted sulfur once in a micro which I know was using this for their lager though.


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## np1962 (14/1/11)

jimi said:


> To date I've only used 2565 for a Kolsch, which came up nice, but I ran it a bit above 16C (about 17-18C for much of the ferment) and got just a touch of a chardonnay flavour that I was told is true to traditional Kolsch. It seemed appropriate for the Kolsch, but I wouldn't want it in a lager. If/when I use it for a lager I'll pitch extra big and keep it lower than the 16C.
> Am I correct in assuming whitelabs & wyeast strains differ a bit in the sub 16C performance, or is that just wishful thinking??
> 
> I notice some sulfur during the ferment with 2565 but absolutely nothing in my finished beer. I've tasted sulfur once in a micro which I know was using this for their lager though.


According ot MrMalty the WLP029 is from PJ Frh, Kln while the WY2565 is Weihenstephan 165, Kln 
Again from the Whitelabs site


> WLP029 German Ale/ Klsch Yeast
> From a small brewpub in Cologne, Germany, this yeast works great in Klsch and Alt style beers. Good for light beers like blond and honey. Accentuates hop flavors, similar to WLP001. The slight sulfur produced during fermentation will disappear with age and leave a super clean, lager like ale.
> Attenuation: 72-78%
> Flocculation: Medium
> ...



Cheers
Nige


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## sponge (27/4/16)

Time for a resurrection.. pitched a 3L decanted starter of WLP029 onto a kolsch (22L, 1.045). 16'C and 48hrs later, it has smashed its way down to 1.011. Bumped it up to 20'C after the 48hrs to finish off and looks pretty done at 1.009. Samples tasting pretty dam good.

Granted the beer won't be clear and still a bit young, but will force carb and see how it's going for some birthday celebrations on Saturday. Then I'll leave it alone for at least a month to 'lager'.

A summer ale is just about to be fermented with some of the slurry. Looking pretty good for a psuedo-lager yeast.


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## danestead (27/4/16)

sponge said:


> Time for a resurrection.. pitched a 3L decanted starter of WLP029 onto a kolsch (22L, 1.045). 16'C and 48hrs later, it has smashed its way down to 1.011. Bumped it up to 20'C after the 48hrs to finish off and looks pretty done at 1.009. Samples tasting pretty dam good.
> 
> Granted the beer won't be clear and still a bit young, but will force carb and see how it's going for some birthday celebrations on Saturday. Then I'll leave it alone for at least a month to 'lager'.
> 
> A summer ale is just about to be fermented with some of the slurry. Looking pretty good for a psuedo-lager yeast.


I've now used both brands of the Kölsch yeast. The White Labs version is clearing in the keg as we speak as I added some gelatine yesterday.

I found the Wyeast to throw some winey aromas but other than that was decent. It chomped through fermentation extremely quickly. It did also need gelatine to clear. I fermented at 15 degrees.

The White labs version I have on tap now was in the keg for a week and a half and still extremely cloudy so I added some gelatine yesterday. The water I used in the brew was fairly low in calcium so there is a chance that had a small part to do with the yeast flocculating. This yeast hasn't throw the winey aroma and as such, I much prefer it. Is it clean, no. Not like the Sunner Kölsch I had. However I really enjoy what the yeast has brought to the beer. I fermented at 18 degrees. It also fermented extremely quickly. I'm really starting to love these Kölschs. So simple and quick to brew and they taste excellent.


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## kaiserben (27/4/16)

I really like the WLP029 and my recent 2 kolsch batches have turned out very similar to Sünner. I find Früh kolsch to be very bland in comparison to the Sünner and thus also bland in comparison to my own attempts at kolsch.


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## danestead (27/4/16)

kaiserben said:


> I really like the WLP029 and my recent 2 kolsch batches have turned out very similar to Sünner. I find Früh kolsch to be very bland in comparison to the Sünner and thus also bland in comparison to my own attempts at kolsch.


What temperature and what pitch rate did you use for this?


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## kalbarluke (27/4/16)

I have used the 2565 a few times and I like it. Granted, I am not an AG Brewer but I still manage to get a pretty good kolsch with a few tricks. I find the key (as lots of people have already said) is fermenting at 16 (or 15) degrees. I use a bit of wheat malt (about 200-300g) and always use hallertaur hops (about 10g for 10 min). I have tried a few commercial versions of kolsch beers (like the 'top knot kolsch' from Green Beacon) and mine is pretty close and just as tasty. 
I have never fermented high with it. The instructions say that if you ferment high you will get more fruity esters but IMHO you don't want that with a kolsch.


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## rude (27/4/16)

2565 wyeast a few times also tried 1007 wyeast

Prefer 2565 & hop with Tettnanger GR but only to 21 IBU max

I usually cc for as long as I can 3 weeks min once did 6 weeks then leave in keg for as long as I can wait
bloody luvely :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: one of my fav styles

Style nazies will be on me here h34r: but also do same grain bill pils touch of wheat with Notto


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## kaiserben (28/4/16)

danestead said:


> What temperature and what pitch rate did you use for this?


One batch was at 18C. Another at 19C. 

Pitching rates: 

For my first batch YeastCalc calculated that I'd need 268bn cells (23L of 1.047 wort on hybrid setting) 
YeastCalc estimates that my 2.5L starter would get me to 250bn cells (stir plate, J Zainesheff) or 388bn (stir plate, K. Troester). 
My actual brew day numbers (I got less volume than estimated for) suggested I'd really only need 235bn cells, so I had ensured that I pitched above the required amount. 

For my second batch I pitched a slurry I'd saved from the above yeast cake (about half, unwashed) as well as 1 fresh pack of WLP029 (direct pitch, no starter). It was a bit of a balls-up and I coulodn't tell you how many viable cells I would've had there.


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## danestead (28/4/16)

kaiserben said:


> One batch was at 18C. Another at 19C.
> 
> Pitching rates:
> 
> ...


Sounds like you did the same as me. I found sunner kölsch very clean like a lager so maybe my beer will clean up as the yeast drops out.


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## Killer Brew (6/7/16)

Used Wyeast 2565 for the first time in a recent Kolsch batch. Fermented out well with good taste but man it is hard to get that yeast to drop out. Added polyclar and held at -1c for over a week and still cloudy. Couldn't wait any longer and had to bottle it to clear the way for my next batch. Will try lagering it once bottle conditioning completes but will be up against it to have it ready for the state comp deadline at end of August.


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## cliffo (6/7/16)

I find Kolsch with 2565 is one beer (well, along with lagers) that I always need/choose to filter.

Just never seems to clear sufficiently otherwise.


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