# PicoBrew Zymatic: the Automatic Beer Brewing Appliance



## Liam_snorkel (1/10/13)

title says it all.


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1708005089/picobrew-zymatic-the-automatic-beer-brewing-applia

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2021921820_briercolumn30xml.html


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## bum (1/10/13)

Bandito?


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## Edgebrew (1/10/13)

Very cool. No boil though?


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## DU99 (1/10/13)

> PicoBrew will gauge demand and help fund production by selling its initial runs of Zymatic machines on the Kickstarter project-funding site. Early machines will sell for around $1,300 and should be delivered in January. Later models, arriving in February and beyond, will cost about $1,500.


Not a bad price either,also good for those with party cornies


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## syl (1/10/13)

Not bad. But only available in North America. Watch that price go all Braumeister on us when it comes here in 2016.

How about reading? To get your SG and everything pre-boil?


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## RelaxedBrewer (1/10/13)

It looks pretty cool, but is a pretty small volume produced (2.5 Gal). 

It is a lot of money to spend on a system that can only make quantities than you can very easily on a stove top.

I think it would be a lot better if it came with a jacket for the keg so fermentation temperature and be controlled. That would really make it an all in one system.


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## dent (1/10/13)

From what I can tell it looks like they have some kind of RIMS style kettle heating going on. So they start with water in the keg, grain in the tray, recirculate these for the mash. Then some valve will stop the recirc going thru the mash and redirect it back to the kettle(keg). Though I don't see if there is another container where the hops get dumped, where wort passes thru, could be one behind the malt tray. So it recircs the keg with the RIMS element long enough for their "boil" which they say is less than a boil temperature wise, but they seem to think it works fine. If you liked this sort of thing one could make a version pretty easily I reckon, with the recirculating keg thing going on - looks like most of the work is in the 'automation' side of things, rather than the brewery itself. 

Depends how much you want to spend to avoid turning some ball valves, and dumping some hops at various intervals,.


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## Bizier (1/10/13)

I'm not that into the idea of an external calandria on a keg. Interesting though. Good to see a different approach to a small unit.


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## Picobrew (1/10/13)

I can shed some light on this as I am one of the cofounders. joined this site since we don't sell to Australia and wanted to go silent on the US sites since I might be biased.

It is a HERMs system, as we use a plate heat exchanger with a hot water set. The delta T between the hot water/glycol loop and the wort is less than 11°C.

All the ingredients are pre-loaded into the container we call the step filter. Fluid distribution is accomplished with two pumps and a stepper motor driven fluid distribution nozzle on a rotating arm.

because the compartments containing the grain and hops or adjuncts are separated, everything can be kept from pre wetting or getting wet when not desired.

We had a lot of concerns while designing the system about getting proper hot break and hops utilization. Turns out there is nothing magical about 100°C except that water does not get hotter than there. One of our major breweries is Coors, which makes beer at 1.5 Km where boiling temperature is quite a bit lower than 100°C. of course for us, the proof was in the glass. 

I do have to say that when doing a conventional all grain home brew, a vigorous boil made better beer than a low boil, but I believe that had more to do with it agitating the kettle better than a simmer did.

The decision on the 2.5 gallons had to do with making a machine that fit under a kitchen counter. I live in an area where we get about 30 days over 38°C, so it was a bit unpleasant making beer outside at that time. of course that's the time when beers is most needed.


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## dent (1/10/13)

That's a good point about brewing at altitude.

Could you perhaps use the same heat exchanger post-boil for chilling if the user desired? 

Seems to me your target market would appreciate the ability to control the temperature of the keg during fermentation. You already have a pump, thermostat, and heat exchanger, add a heat pump and you've got a complete solution.


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## Picobrew (1/10/13)

We thought about it but the energy requirements to chill even 2.5 galons of wort are high if you want to do it in under 30 minutes. It would have added a lto of weight also.

Instead, we use the simple Home brew standby- circulate through the copper coil immersed in ice water. We interrupt the line from the keg to the machine, so we get all our temperature reading working on the machine. With 8 kg of ice we can cool in 20 minutes to pitching. We don't offer the chiller coils, that's something the brewer supply stores do much better than us.


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## QldKev (1/10/13)

Can I have one for free to do a review


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## Feldon (1/10/13)

So a lesson to take out this is that with conventional equipment and process we can do the wort 'boil' at something less than 100C as long as we agitate the wort? (say, with a 12v BBQ rotisserie motor with a paddle attached?). What temp does the PicoBrew Zymatic get to?

This would be a big saving on energy/cost.

Or am I missing something.


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## anthonyUK (1/10/13)

I would be interested in the viability of these all-in-one systems. As a brewer I don't see them being viable but there may be a market for the 99% of 'normal' people who are not yet brewers.
I do think though that they are still pretty niche products and will quickly be outgrown.


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## Rurik (1/10/13)

Feldon said:


> So a lesson to take out this is that with conventional equipment and process we can do the wort 'boil' at something less than 100C as long as we agitate the wort? (say, with a 12v BBQ rotisserie motor with a paddle attached?). What temp does the PicoBrew Zymatic get to?
> 
> This would be a big saving on energy/cost.
> 
> Or am I missing something.



Have a look at this article if this sort of info interests you. 

View attachment 02 - The function of wort boiling1.pdf


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## Feldon (1/10/13)

Rurik said:


> Have a look at this article if this sort of info interests you.


Thanks, Rurik. Got that. But it doesn't say anything about conducting the wort 'boil' at anything less than 100C. Which is apparently what this PicoBrew machine does (happy to be corrected).


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## booargy (1/10/13)

I have been thinking of building a HLT with the elements in tubes on the side of the kettle. this would create a thermo syphon and agitate the liquid. But here is a thought.
Strike water gets heated in the fermenter with heat exchanger.
Mash into esky the heat exchanger maintains temp.
drain wort back to fermenter
continue to heat/boil in fermenter with heat exchanger for hop additions divert wort through hop chambers.
when boil is finished continue circulating wort but chill the heat exchanger. 
An interesting thing would be the maintain ferment temps with heat exchanger.


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## doon (1/10/13)

Call me stupid but boiling at altitude is still boiling even if it occurs at a lower temp. 

If your at a altitude where it occurs at 100 degrees or close to it wouldnt it need to get to 100 deg for volatile compounds to be removed etc?


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## Phoney (1/10/13)

Are these things built in the US of A? If so, I wonder how much cheaper they could get if the production was based in China or Vietnam etc...


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## Rurik (1/10/13)

Feldon said:


> Thanks, Rurik. Got that. But it doesn't say anything about conducting the wort 'boil' at anything less than 100C. Which is apparently what this PicoBrew machine does (happy to be corrected).



This article forms part of a whole series on wort boiling which you can access if you are doing one of their exams (I did one about 3 years ago). In it they explore how far down the temps can go. From memory they talk about one brewery that after they achieve hot break they will let the temp get down to 80 deg C. Their kettle has pumps installed the sprays the wort in a fan like shape. This achieves the desired boil off with a huge energy saving.


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## Rurik (1/10/13)

doon said:
 

> Call me stupid but boiling at altitude is still boiling even if it occurs at a lower temp.
> 
> If your at a altitude where it occurs at 100 degrees or close to it wouldnt it need to get to 100 deg for volatile compounds to be removed etc?


The removal of volatiles has more to do with agitation then temp.


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## Picobrew (2/10/13)

One thing you do get better with a boil is water evaporation. The ability to control final gravity by increasing or decreasing the amount boiled off in an actual boil gives most home brewers a valuable tool for hitting OG.

In the PicoBrew we only get a couple points gravity increase during boil. Luckily we have had enough runs that the recipe calculator accuratly predicts final OG within +_0.001 normally (assuming proper grind size, water chemistry on a single step mash). We do get volatiles removes since the wort sprays into the hops compartments.


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## doon (2/10/13)

Sweet well I have learnt something new!


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## Rurik (2/10/13)

Picobrew said:


> One thing you do get better with a boil is water evaporation. The ability to control final gravity by increasing or decreasing the amount boiled off in an actual boil gives most home brewers a valuable tool for hitting OG.
> 
> In the PicoBrew we only get a couple points gravity increase during boil. Luckily we have had enough runs that the recipe calculator accuratly predicts final OG within +_0.001 normally (assuming proper grind size, water chemistry on a single step mash). We do get volatiles removes since the wort sprays into the hops compartments.


What is the evaporation rate?


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## Picobrew (4/10/13)

It evaporates about 1-2 pounds during boil, variable with ambient humidity.


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## Spiesy (4/10/13)

Picobrew said:


> It evaporates about 1-2 pounds during boil, variable with ambient humidity.


and we've just slipped out of metric... 

just kidding, you've been great to answer all our questions - and do so in our local metric "language".


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## br33zy (18/10/13)

Rurik said:


> This article forms part of a whole series on wort boiling which you can access if you are doing one of their exams (I did one about 3 years ago). In it they explore how far down the temps can go. From memory they talk about one brewery that after they achieve hot break they will let the temp get down to 80 deg C. Their kettle has pumps installed the sprays the wort in a fan like shape. This achieves the desired boil off with a huge energy saving.


Hi Rurik,

Thanks for the article, that's great. Do you have any of the other in the series that you can share?

Cheers

Breezy


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## Crouch (21/10/13)

Breezy too said:


> Hi Rurik,
> 
> Thanks for the article, that's great. Do you have any of the other in the series that you can share?
> 
> ...


 Completely OT but that weblink at the bottom of the pages in that article is no longer an active website - the domain is actually for sale.

Anyway, back OT ... the Picobrew does look like a cool device, and for someone who is getting back into brewing and looking to step up to AG, it did capture my attention ... until I realized that I want the ability to 'stuff around' with ball valves, pumps, and enough stainless steel to make my wife look cranky every time I talk about it 

AND, I think its great they jumped onto the forums here and answered some questions!


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## Rurik (21/10/13)

Breezy too said:


> Hi Rurik,
> 
> Thanks for the article, that's great. Do you have any of the other in the series that you can share?
> 
> ...



Not really, they are pretty protective of the material and I don't want to open that can of worms. The article I posted I found for download from their website. 



Crouch said:


> Completely OT but that weblink at the bottom of the pages in that article is no longer an active website - the domain is actually for sale.


If you mean this on http://www.ibd.org.uk it is working for me.


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## Dave70 (25/10/13)

What about high gravity beers like barley wines, IIPA , RIS or Belgian ales that use sugar adjuncts? 

I think it would be a good fit for people who prefer pods to fresh ground coffee, kind of thing.


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## fletcher (25/10/13)

Dave70 said:


> What about high gravity beers like barley wines, IIPA , RIS or Belgian ales that use sugar adjuncts?
> 
> I think it would be a good fit for people who prefer pods to fresh ground coffee, kind of thing.


their FAQs mention adding DME to the grist, but the container is pretty limited in that manner for grains only i'm guessing. i agree with you though. for me, it would be one of those things i'd buy if i was time poor but still wanted AG


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## jaypes (25/10/13)

Nice looking piece of kit, well done. Spending that amount of dough on making beer would have me shot by the Senior Minister at the Department of Arguments

My 40L pot off yum-cha ebay seller does me, its made plenty of great beers (and a few shit ones too!)


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## Elz (5/11/13)

Brewing has certainly changed from when I was brewing in my dads carport many years ago. With a 20 year hiatus and only getting back into brewing because of new technology: WilliamsWarn (WW) it looks like things are taking another step 'forward'. Whilst I appreciate the more traditional ways of brewing, with new technology comes new home brewers, this can only be a good thing for brewing. If this machine comes to Oz it would be a good adjunct to the WW. In the meantime I will slowly work my way towards allgrain brewing


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## Gibboaus (10/12/13)

I have stumped up for the International version. Its on Pre-order and will arrive in July. I am not fussed by the 2.5GL output.
The Complete lack of variation between outputs means that I can make 2 batches in 1 day (6 -7 hours of wait time for very little work time) and achieve 5GL to fill a keg..

I am time poor - but want to move to AG brewing from extract. This allows me to do it.


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## Rurik (10/12/13)

Gibboaus said:


> I have stumped up for the International version. Its on Pre-order and will arrive in July. I am not fussed by the 2.5GL output.
> The Complete lack of variation between outputs means that I can make 2 batches in 1 day (6 -7 hours of wait time for very little work time) and achieve 5GL to fill a keg..
> 
> I am time poor - but want to move to AG brewing from extract. This allows me to do it.



Let us know how it goes. I am fascinated by it as a concept.


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## Gibboaus (11/12/13)

Absolutely. I am happy for anyone to come and have a sneaky peak.


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## of mice and gods (23/12/13)

Gibbo, you could always switch to the 9L cornies and pump out two different brews


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## Gibboaus (6/1/14)

I received my [member='PicoBrew'] shirt in the post just the other day - July can't come quick enough


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## SnakeDoctor (10/2/14)

Keep us posted Gibboaus - looks the goods.


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## Gibboaus (7/5/14)

Just to let you all know - the first devices have started shipping in April and I'm still expecting mine in July so not too ling. Hopefully the import tax isn't too steep.
Also interesting the device is also very capable of Sous-vide cooking. Now I have to get my grain mill organised. I can't wait to start reading the recipe interface online.


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## NewtownClown (7/5/14)

Gibboaus said:


> Just to let you all know - the first devices have started shipping in April and I'm still expecting mine in July so not too ling. Hopefully the import tax isn't too steep.
> Also interesting the device is also very capable of Sous-vide cooking. Now I have to get my grain mill organised. I can't wait to start reading the recipe interface online.


No duty or GST is applied to goods purchased over the Internet if the value is less than $1000


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## durham70 (7/5/14)

I backed this on kickstarter and am also waiting for my unit.
Mine was due to ship in May but given they have only just shipped the first 2 units that were due to ship in January i'm figuring it might be August by the time mine ships. If it is sooner I'll be very happy !!

Given the size / weight of the boxes it's the shipping cost rather than the import duty that I think might be steep !!

Really looking forward to receiving it and giving it a run though

cheers


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## Gibboaus (8/5/14)

NewtownClown said:


> No duty or GST is applied to goods purchased over the Internet if the value is less than $1000


Unfortunately it was over $1000


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## Gibboaus (9/5/14)

First unboxing video (there is also a nice "login" button on their home page now) which I assume is for the recipe engine.


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## Dan Pratt (12/5/14)

Do you have the video of the beer you made?


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## yeungnut (13/5/14)

Hi Guys,

For those of you that have purchased over here. It is disappointing that these units don't use or have the ability to use metric units, which for the small volumes will be a pain. You may want to raise this with the company.


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## durham70 (13/5/14)

I'm waiting on my kickstarter unit but I don't see the issue regarding metric v us measures as a major issue ? Conversion isn't difficult ?


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## yeungnut (13/5/14)

True, conversion isn't difficult but it will be a pain looking at the screen and seeing the mash temps in Fahrenheit.
Even cheap scales have the ability to do both. I would have thought a product being designed from the ground up that it would have been a given if it was being sold to an international market


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## Bribie G (13/5/14)

Considering that 37% of Americans are unable to point out where the USA is on a map of the World, I'd say that it never even crossed their minds.


_Shirley Matheson, a part-time Arby's employee residing in Dayton, Ohio, agreed with Weiss's assessment. _
_"I live in the U.S.A., so why would I need to know where America is? Or the United States for that matter?"_

_"That thing definitely looked familiar," said autoworker and father of three Ed McConnell. _
_"And my gut told me there were probably a whole bunch of Americans there. So I had to go with 'Iraq.'"_


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## Gibboaus (13/5/14)

CILA Brews said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> For those of you that have purchased over here. It is disappointing that these units don't use or have the ability to use metric units, which for the small volumes will be a pain. You may want to raise this with the company.


I'll email the pre-orders inbox


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## Gibboaus (8/9/14)

Still waiting 
Getting impatient - I want to grab some Season 2014 fresh Galaxy Hops and give it a run!


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## Gibboaus (6/3/15)

Righto - I've received it (finally). I've brewed the "Pico Pale Ale". It took longer to unpack than to setup for the brew.

It's simple - the recipe crafter is in lbs and oz but I have a spreadsheet to convert to Kgs and grams. I've crafted a few Aussie recipe's based off local stuff. 
*Pacific Ale *
*4 Pines Kolsch *(which is really a German Golden Ale/Blonde ) 
*Young Henry's Natural Lager *


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## Mardoo (6/3/15)

Cool. Look forward to hearing more.


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## kaiserben (16/2/16)

Any feedback from those who bought them? 

Also, how much did it cost you over and above the price of the product? (ie shipping, taxes/duty etc) 

I'm not so much interested in buying the system itself, but I'd love to buy some of their 5L brewing kegs (listed at $125 for 2 on their website here as "Pico Keg 2-pack"). I'm guessing shipping these to Sydney would make the cost a whole lot less tempting?


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