# Ongoing Diacetyl ? off flavour



## Bandit24 (24/7/18)

I've been getting an ongoing off flavour, and I'd hugely appreciate any thoughts/ideas on what I'm doing wrong.

Latest:
WHITE IPA FWK (20L)
Split into 2 x 10L batches
OG 1042 
Used pure o2 for 90 seconds in each batch
Batch 1-WLP590 French Saison (18 days old when pitched) - Ferm temp 22c
Batch 2-WLP007 Dry English Ale (19 days old when pitched) - Ferm temp 18c

Both batches, 1014 after 4 days, currently at 6 days

Saison tasted amazing at Day 3, fruity, and beautiful saison flavour. 
wlp007 batch just tasted ok at Day 3, nothing off, just average.

Day 4 (When gravity samples taken), a distinct sweet, maybe butter/butterscotch kinda flavour has become evident, it kinda reminds me of unfermented wort. It sort of matches to the descriptor for Diacetyl, but really I’m not 100% sure, as I am inexperienced in beer tasting.

Day 6, haven’t taken another gravity sample yet, but the flavour described above has pretty much completely taken over both beers, even the Saison yeast profile as almost completely diminished. 

Previous to these above batches, I had 3 x full 20L FWK batches with similar taste. 

Pale Lager FWK - 1044 > 1008 - using WYEAST 2112 (6 week old yeast) - aerated by hand - ferm temp 19

US Pale Ale FWK - 1050 > 1008 - using WYEAST 1272 (4 week old yeast) - aerated by hand - ferm temp 19

UK Pale Ale FWK - 1044 > 1010 - using WYEAST 968 (8 week old yeast) - aerated by hand - ferm temp 19

In all 3 beers, they are pretty much the same as my latest batches, the flavour is the same as described above, but in varying levels across the 3 batches, but in all cases, they taste pretty shit and I am struggling to drink them. The Pale Lager is almost 2 months old in bottles and hasn’t improved at all, probably getting slowly worse if anything. 

Obviously the first thought after the above 3 batches is Diacetyl. And after reading more about yeast pitch rates and oxygen, I decided I had both under pitched and under aerated and caused Diacetyl due to yeast stress.

So I got myself a Pure o2 kit, and decided to try 10L batches so I could ensure I was pitching enough yeast (without doing starters, which I have not done at all yet), I also bought some of the freshest yeast I could find in store. 

I am brewing in a temp controlled fridge. I used 2 x brand new 15L fermenters for the split 10L batches. 
I am thorough with my cleaning and sanitising using Sodium Perc and StarSan. 

I am not just being fussy with flavour. Although not completely off, these beers are drinkable to some degree, but are just not enjoyable at all. I struggle to get through a long neck once opened, and am really avoiding drinking them at all.

I have tasted beer that the LHBS store has whipped up with a kit and kilo and dry yeast, fermented in the back of the shop with no temp control, and that stuff is miles better than what I am producing.

I previously went through the pink yeast debacle described in this thread: https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/frequently-asked-questions-for-the-new-brewer.9233/page-18

I believe I stopped the pink yeast/infection/whatever it was, by ditching all my fermenting gear and starting fresh and nuking my fridge with sodium perc and starsan, which I now do after every batch just to be sure. 

In 12 months of brewing, I am up to 16 batches, and I’ve had only 3-4 “successful” batches, and those were early on, (FWK’s) using dried yeast without rehydrating, they weren’t great either, but there didn’t seem to be any off flavours, just boring beers as I wasn’t doing much with them back then. 

The only things left that can be possible problems as far as I can see:

1) I have just found out that StarSan can be infected if there is a crack in the bottle. My lid is cracked and has about a 2mm gap that could let air in. It has been like this for many months (maybe even 6-9 months). I am going to ditch this bottle and replace it to make sure, and even though it seems highly unlikely, could anyone see this being the root of my problems?

2) My fermentation fridge. I bought it refurbished from the manufacturer, which was basically brand new. It’s a Haier, pretty large fridge-only kinda deal. I honestly don’t know what could be wrong with it to cause repeated off flavours, but I have read about things like air conditioners causing repeated infection.

3) The shed I have the fermenting fridge in. I usually do all my cleaning/pitching/dry hopping etc in the kitchen, but the fermenting fridge is in a small outdoor shed/demountable type thing, that is shared with a dog, and has a permanently open door to the back yard. It’s not especially sanitary, but I do make an effort to try and keep it clean, and not to disturb any dog hair or dust before opening the ferment fridge. I am a sucker for “checking on” and tasting my brews though, so the fridge door does get opened a lot. I use glad wrap for fermenting, then half screw the lid back on (with the glad wrap still on) when cold crashing. Any chance of something in this shed causing an issue? Wild yeasts? anything I can do/look for/avoid?

Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you for listening to my extremely long sob story <3


----------



## dibbz (24/7/18)

> I have just found out that StarSan can be infected

It's literally acid


----------



## Bandit24 (24/7/18)

I assume that means StarSan can't be infected? I have definitely just read it somewhere, however happy for that theory to be proven wrong so I can cross it off my list


----------



## MHB (24/7/18)

There are usually two causes of Di-Acetyl (more properly VDK's) are Yeast and Bacterial Infection.
Unless you are doing something really out of the ordinary I think from what you have written, it probably isn't the yeast. To make sure if its wrong to assume you are using fresh yeast and not trying to get a ridiculous number of brews out of one batch let us know.

Which leaves Bacteria, the bugs that cause VDK's can be very tenacious, hard to kill and frustrating. They are also extremely good at penetrating plastic.
Considering where your at and what you have invested I would get a new fermenter and all its parts, use nothing that has been exposed to other brews (taps, airlocks hoses stirrers...)
If you cant do that, soak everything in hot water and bleach (better yet IodoPhos), leave for a couple of days, do a basic K&K brew and see if it shows the same signs of infection.
Good idea to sanitise the whole brewing space and the inside of your fridge with either 70% Alcohol and water spray (Metho and water, no Smoking OK) IodoPhos or even Bleach, just take appropriate care to have eyes and a respiratory system left when you finish (were eye protection and a respirator).
Can be dam frustrating but work at it systematically and you will win.
Mark


----------



## labels (24/7/18)

A very comprehensive question with lots of information. However, very difficult to answer in a brewing forum. Firstly, even you're not 100% sure diacetyl is the problem but it seems most likely, secondly there are many pathways to diacetyl. Although the majority are fermentation related, wild yeast infections can produce huge amounts of the stuff.

In my opinion, you're best chance of finding an answer is by networking with other brewers in your vicinity - a brew club perhaps and getting an opinion based on tastings and experience of the other brewers. I don't think you're going to find an answer here.


----------



## Bandit24 (24/7/18)

MHB said:


> There are usually two causes of Di-Acetyl (more properly VDK's) are Yeast and Bacterial Infection.
> Unless you are doing something really out of the ordinary I think from what you have written, it probably isn't the yeast. To make sure if its wrong to assume you are using fresh yeast and not trying to get a ridiculous number of brews out of one batch let us know.
> 
> Which leaves Bacteria, the bugs that cause VDK's can be very tenacious, hard to kill and frustrating. They are also extremely good at penetrating plastic.
> ...



Thanks for your help Mark. 

At this stage I'm using fresh yeast and only using it once. Looking at my pitch rates and process, would you say I should have something drinkable by now, and therefore this is looking like an infection issue not a yeast/stress issue?

Out of the 5 batches with this assumed Diacetyl infection, the first 3 were in a brand new 25L fermenter (with all new fittings etc), and the latest split batch in 2 x brand new 15L fermenters (with new fittings). Nothing else previously used in the brewing process was used on this latest split batch in the 15L fermenters. Maybe except simple things like scissors to cut the yeast packet open (which are brewing only scissors and sanitised before use). 
You would have to assume therefore the infection is finding its way in regardless of my equipment and process, and I need to completely nuke the space and everything in it with cleaners as you suggested. 

The only consistent things amongst these batches (and also previously), were basically the cracked StarSan container (now debunked), fermenting fridge, and backyard shed. Would you say in general, an old demountable/shed that houses a dog, and a fair bit of other junk, open door, rundown - is just a bad place for fermenting, even if fermenter is appropriately sealed inside a fermenting fridge? 

I'm happy to invest in a stainless fermenter if the consensus is it's much less likely to be infected? (if proper cleaning/sanitation processes are followed of course). 

I'm thinking of trying the next batch inside the house instead, it will have to be heat belt and temp controller only, and shouldn't get too warm where I am at this time of year.


----------



## Bandit24 (24/7/18)

labels said:


> A very comprehensive question with lots of information. However, very difficult to answer in a brewing forum. Firstly, even you're not 100% sure diacetyl is the problem but it seems most likely, secondly there are may pathways to diacetyl. Although the majority are fermentation related, wild yeast infections can produce huge amounts of the stuff.
> 
> In my opinion, you're best chance of finding an answer is by networking with other brewers in your vicinity - a brew club perhaps and getting an opinion based on tastings and experience of the other brewers. I don't think you're going to find an answer here.



Agreed, very difficult to get a true answer to something like this on a forum. And I had been meaning to find the local group and explore that way and will do soon, however I thought it was worth posting up and seeing if anyone did have any ideas I could start working on now, so I can keep brewing in the meantime!


----------



## MHB (24/7/18)

Dog and old outdoor shed are a pretty scary combination.
Knew one guy who tried to brew in an old cattery - about a dozen brews before we nuked the room and replaced the carpet with lino - fixed it.
Everything else sounds like it should be giving good results, so I think bringing it indoors would be a good call. Avoid heat belts and plates if you can, use a neutral Lager yeast (say 34/70) or just wrap a towel around the fermenter with a temperature tolerant Ale yeast.
Still a good idea to go insane with the cleaning.
Mark


----------



## Danscraftbeer (25/7/18)

Re check all procedures. Are you up to standard? For what the professionals would do?
All new fresh cleaning and sanitizing solutions?
I will use solutions for a while they are good. As long as they are kept in uncompromising ways.
Its a judgment thing. When in doubt chuck it out. Make fresh as the professionals would always do because they can not risk buggering up any brew. So do what they would do.


----------



## Fro-Daddy (25/7/18)

This might seem silly, but how about the cleanliness of your hands when working with the equipment?
I agree with changing the brewing environment for a test though, seems like equipment should be ok.


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

MHB said:


> Dog and old outdoor shed are a pretty scary combination.
> Knew one guy who tried to brew in an old cattery - about a dozen brews before we nuked the room and replaced the carpet with lino - fixed it.
> Everything else sounds like it should be giving good results, so I think bringing it indoors would be a good call. Avoid heat belts and plates if you can, use a neutral Lager yeast (say 34/70) or just wrap a towel around the fermenter with a temperature tolerant Ale yeast.
> Still a good idea to go insane with the cleaning.
> Mark



I'll give indoors a try with a basic K&K 34/70 recipe and see what results I get. 

Why do you suggest not using heat belt/plate? Are you saying that in general they are bad, or just in this scenario..and why?

I think I'll get a fresh Bunnings fermenter to be sure for this batch to make sure.

Another question related to this - when I've drilled holes into cubes/Bunnings fermenters before, I got pretty jagged results around the hole, looked like good hiding places for bacteria. I tried to smooth them out but I was never satisfied. Anyone got any tips on how to do this successfully? Is there some kind of specific drill bit I should use? I'm not great with tools. 

And re: stainless fermenters, as long as normal procedures are followed, is the general consensus is that they are more resistant to bacteria?


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Re check all procedures. Are you up to standard? For what the professionals would do?
> All new fresh cleaning and sanitizing solutions?
> I will use solutions for a while they are good. As long as they are kept in uncompromising ways.
> Its a judgment thing. When in doubt chuck it out. Make fresh as the professionals would always do because they can not risk buggering up any brew. So do what they would do.



Do you think having the StarSan lid cracked open could effect the effectiveness of it in any way? For $10 or whatever StarSan is, I'm happy to chuck it and start again to be sure, but still curious about this one anyway. 

I've had to go through a check of my cleaning procedures already, when I was previously getting a seemingly different infection as mentioned in the thread above. I completely overhauled everything then, and now getting this new infection. I don't know if I'm up to a professional standard, but I'm basically doing everything that is possible in my current house.

Before this 12 months of brewing, I have actually had a couple of attempts at brewing over the years in different houses, I only brewed say 3-5 batches on each attempt, all kit and kilo, sprinkled dry yeast, and don't remember ever having infections, or any ongoing problems like this. I remember pretty boring beers, that seemed clean however, and maybe 1 or 2 dud batches due to no temp control, and I was probably just using the "all in one cleaner and sanitiser" that came with the fermenter kit. At this house I've stepped up my knowledge hugely, using the right chemicals, way better ingredients, temp control, being as thorough as I can, up to about my 7th new fermenter, and basically had ongoing problems for 12 months, which is leading me to think it really has to be an external factor like the space I'm fermenting in.


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

Fro-Daddy said:


> This might seem silly, but how about the cleanliness of your hands when working with the equipment?
> I agree with changing the brewing environment for a test though, seems like equipment should be ok.



I just wash my hands with household hand soap before starting, but usually need to pop in and out of the kitchen to the shed for a couple of things while brewing, I couldn't guarantee I'm keeping them 100% clean during the process. I don't have a physical job that gets dirt or grease on my hands or anything (I basically work on a computer at home). Either way I didn't know there could be an issue here, what is the recommended process?


----------



## MHB (25/7/18)

On heat plates and to a lesser extent belts they are often heating the yeast, this accelerates any breakdown which can lead to off flavours, plates are really bad. You usually get better results brewing cooler. I used to (back in my shop owning days) often put a glass fermenter on the front counter, it brewed out just fine without any heating even in the middle of winter, looks good to, bit like a lava lamp.

For drilling tap/bung holes I always used a spade bit (the flat ones with two little cutters on the outside edge). This type and size.





The other tool I found handy was an old soldering iron, I have a 2000W job, it takes a piece of 1/2" copper tube into the head holder, get it hot and just punch out the plug, it self seals the edges of the hole at the same time. If your hole is a bit raged you could clean it up with a sharp knife then fuse the surface with a small gas flame (takes practice and not recommended for tooltards).

SS equipment is the nuts, but it wont fix all problems, if you are getting bacteria or as labels said wild yeast, better to fix that first and be sure you want to keep brewing before making a big investment.
Mark


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

MHB said:


> On heat plates and to a lesser extent belts they are often heating the yeast, this accelerates any breakdown which can lead to off flavours, plates are really bad. You usually get better results brewing cooler. I used to (back in my shop owning days) often put a glass fermenter on the front counter, it brewed out just fine without any heating even in the middle of winter, looks good to, bit like a lava lamp.
> 
> For drilling tap/bung holes I always used a spade bit (the flat ones with two little cutters on the outside edge). This type and size.
> View attachment 113063
> ...



Re: heat belts - fair enough, but how do you really control temperature then? Just a fridge and temp control? What about when it gets too cold? Or are you saying in a climate like Wollongong, brew lagers in winter and then ales in summer? It seems a lot of people use heat belts and plates, is it better for example to hang the heat belt in the fridge (which I read was risky as they need to dissipate their heat onto something)? Or are you just saying heat in general is bad? I was under the impression yeast fermented too low in temp (below its optimal temp range) would be stressed, or not finish fermenting?

Re: Drill - Thats exactly what I used but the holes always seem to come out ragged around the edges. On a regular open style fermenter, I'm able to get in with a box cutter and at least improve it, but on Bunnings fermenters/Cubes with small openings, how the hell am I supposed to clean it up from the outside, when the raggedness is on the inside?

Re: SS - based on the track record and results I've had, believe me if I wasn't in this for the long haul, I would have stopped already. I definitely will fix this problem before investing in SS, but good to know for the future SS is the way to go.


----------



## MHB (25/7/18)

If you put a small fan in your brewing fridge you wont need a heater. A fridge is a well insulated box, a brew produces heat and so does the fan. Even in the middle of winter the fridge will kick in occasionally to get rid of excess heat.
The other advantages of a fan shouldn't be understated; they stop thermal layering (the fridge being hotter at the top than the bottom); improve the rate of cooling (moving air takes the heat out of the fermenter faster keeping your brew closer to the set temperature); reduces the size of the cycle range between fridge on/off times...
Mark


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

MHB said:


> If you put a small fan in your brewing fridge you wont need a heater. A fridge is a well insulated box, a brew produces heat and so does the fan. Even in the middle of winter the fridge will kick in occasionally to get rid of excess heat.
> The other advantages of a fan shouldn't be understated; they stop thermal layering (the fridge being hotter at the top than the bottom); improve the rate of cooling (moving air takes the heat out of the fermenter faster keeping your brew closer to the set temperature); reduces the size of the cycle range between fridge on/off times...
> Mark



This is all great info, really appreciate your help Mark

Can I ask, is a small sized/desk mains powered fan ok? Or do most people use computer fans? How do you power the computer fans? And do you just have the fan turn on whilst the fridge is turned on (ie. double adapter on the temp controller), or do you run it 24/7? I'm assuming 24/7 based on your comment above about the fan creating some heat. No danger to run a shitty little fan continuously like that?

Couple of other questions regarding my potentially sullied equipment, how far do I need to go?

- I've got an unused FWK that's been sitting in the same shed for a couple of weeks, since the FWK cube is plastic like a fermenter, if the infection I'm getting that creates Diacetyl can get into plastic easily, is there a chance it could have somehow already infected the unopened FWK?

- I just bought an o2 kit, and the parts were stored once again in the same shed, in the same plastic tub that holds all of my other brewing equipment (a lot of which has been in contact with infected brews, which I will now be chucking), the o2 kit is yours/Brewman kit, how thoroughly am I going to need to nuke the hose and wand? what about the regulator and stone?

- What about post-fermentation stuff like PET bottles, bottle tree?


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

Taken some readings on these latest batches:


10L Saison 
WLP590
Fermented at 22c
1042 - 1004 (7 days)
Yeast attentuation range 73-80
Apparent attentuation 90 
Taste doesn’t seem as bad as 2 days ago, but is still pretty bad tasting (or at best extremely average) and has absoluetly no saison yeast flavour. Remember that at day 3 this batch tasted fruity and full of saison flavour. 

10L IPA 
WLP007
Fermented at 18c
1042 - 1012 (7 days)
Yeast attentuation range 70-80
Apparent attenuation 71
Within attentuation range but tastes bad, full Daicetyl flavour and nothing else really. 

Also looking back on my previous 3 batches now that I know more about yeast and attentuation:

Pale Lager - Attenuation Range 67-71, Apparent 83
US Pale Ale - Attenuation Range 72-76, Apparent 83
UK Pale Ale - Attentuation Range 67-71, Apparent 77

On those 3 batches with my pitch rate (1 pack per 20L) and hand stirred aeration method, there’s no way I was hitting those numbers without infection right?

I used the brewers friends ABV calculator to get apparent attenuation.


----------



## KE VO (25/7/18)

MHB said:


> If you put a small fan in your brewing fridge you wont need a heater. A fridge is a well insulated box, a brew produces heat and so does the fan. Even in the middle of winter the fridge will kick in occasionally to get rid of excess heat.
> The other advantages of a fan shouldn't be understated; they stop thermal layering (the fridge being hotter at the top than the bottom); improve the rate of cooling (moving air takes the heat out of the fermenter faster keeping your brew closer to the set temperature); reduces the size of the cycle range between fridge on/off times...
> Mark[/QUOT


----------



## KE VO (25/7/18)

Sorry. Trying to work out how to reply.
Re. Heating. I have found using a reptile heat chord in my fermenting fridge works well as you just run it around the shelves underneath and it heats the air inside without heating the fermenter itself. It has an electronic thermostat which is set at 20°c. The thermometer is at the top. It keeps my top fermenter at around 20°c and the fermenter at the bottom on 18°c. Never fluctuates at all and never had any heating probs.


----------



## Chappo (25/7/18)

When was the last time you cleaned out your taps?


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

Chappo said:


> When was the last time you cleaned out your taps?



If you’re talking about fermenter taps, every brew, fully pulled apart, soaked in Sodium Perc to clean and soaked in StarSan before use. Also used brand new taps on this latest split batch


----------



## Chappo (25/7/18)

Bandit24 said:


> If you’re talking about fermenter taps, every brew, fully pulled apart, soaked in Sodium Perc to clean and soaked in StarSan before use. Also used brand new taps on this latest split batch



What about kettle taps? http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/


----------



## Bandit24 (25/7/18)

Chappo said:


> What about kettle taps? http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/



I'm only using FWK's at this time / no AG.

That article is great thanks for linking. Very similar to what I'm going through, hopefully I can work out what the hell the problem is!!!


----------



## MHB (25/7/18)

Chappo said:


> What about kettle taps? http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/


Hardly an issue when one is brewing FWC's
On the fridge fan, whatever works best for you, I have an old scientific fridge with a built in fan, have in the past used a 240V computer fan (if you go to Jaycar they have a plug and lead for theirs) know people who use a small desk fan... what ever works for you.
KE VO there are other reasons for using a fan other than just getting a stable temperature, try it and see.
Mark


----------



## labels (25/7/18)

Bandit24 said:


> I'll give indoors a try with a basic K&K 34/70 recipe and see what results I get.
> 
> Why do you suggest not using heat belt/plate? Are you saying that in general they are bad, or just in this scenario..and why?
> 
> ...


Yes, use a STEP DRILL to get clean, burr-free holes on plastic. Cheap and available from Bunnings.


----------



## goatchop41 (25/7/18)

If you want to really give the fridge a real nuke option, go for acidified bleach - it's way more potent than normal bleach.
You prepare the bleach as per instructions for dilution, but add an equal amount of an acid** (white vinegar was used in the journal article that I read). It kills much faster than normal bleach and I think it also kills a few more things too.

**DO NOT MIX THE ACID AND BLEACH DIRECTLY. That is how you make chlorine gas and possibly kill yourself. Do it in a well ventilated area, add the bleach to the water, mix well, then add the vinegar.


----------



## Bandit24 (26/7/18)

labels said:


> Yes, use a STEP DRILL to get clean, burr-free holes on plastic. Cheap and available from Bunnings.



Thanks


----------



## Bandit24 (26/7/18)

MHB said:


> Hardly an issue when one is brewing FWC's
> On the fridge fan, whatever works best for you, I have an old scientific fridge with a built in fan, have in the past used a 240V computer fan (if you go to Jaycar they have a plug and lead for theirs) know people who use a small desk fan... what ever works for you.
> KE VO there are other reasons for using a fan other than just getting a stable temperature, try it and see.
> Mark



Thanks. Can you run the fans 24/7 with no electrical fire danger?


----------



## Bandit24 (26/7/18)

goatchop41 said:


> If you want to really give the fridge a real nuke option, go for acidified bleach - it's way more potent than normal bleach.
> You prepare the bleach as per instructions for dilution, but add an equal amount of an acid** (white vinegar was used in the journal article that I read). It kills much faster than normal bleach and I think it also kills a few more things too.
> 
> **DO NOT MIX THE ACID AND BLEACH DIRECTLY. That is how you make chlorine gas and possibly kill yourself. Do it in a well ventilated area, add the bleach to the water, mix well, then add the vinegar.



Sounds intense. 

I’m looking to downsize my fridge anyway, might be time to look for something smaller


----------



## Bandit24 (26/7/18)

What does everyone think about the below that I posted earlier re: getting rid of equipment that may have been in contact with infected brews?

Couple of other questions regarding my potentially sullied equipment, how far do I need to go?

- I've got an unused FWK that's been sitting in the same shed for a couple of weeks, since the FWK cube is plastic like a fermenter, if the infection I'm getting that creates Diacetyl can get into plastic easily, is there a chance it could have somehow already infected the unopened FWK?

- I just bought an o2 kit, and the parts were stored once again in the same shed, in the same plastic tub that holds all of my other brewing equipment (a lot of which has been in contact with infected brews, which I will now be chucking), how thoroughly am I going to need to nuke the hose and wand? what about the regulator and stone?

- What about post-fermentation stuff like PET bottles, bottle tree?


----------



## goatchop41 (26/7/18)

Bandit24 said:


> What does everyone think about the below that I posted earlier re: getting rid of equipment that may have been in contact with infected brews?
> 
> Couple of other questions regarding my potentially sullied equipment, how far do I need to go?
> 
> ...



1) No, it should be fine. Bacteria can't get through plastic.

2) I would nuke all of the O2 gear (again, acidified bleach with multiple clean water rinses afterwards). If any of the parts for it are cheap and easy to replace, then you may as well just do that with those parts.

3) All cold side stuff will either need to be nuked (can just boil the shite out of thick silicone hoses) or replaced, unless it is stainless, in which case it just needs a good clean with some caustic


----------



## Swannie (26/7/18)

No one else has asked/mentioned:

Are you spraying sanitiser into the tap and waiting 20 secs or so before opening?
Have you tried with an airlock in the lid instead of cling film?
Yes, usually the nasties fall down. But...

After you fiddle, are you replacing the cling film? Nasties could be falling down on to it whilst you are inside your fermenter.

Could your dog get to the tap? 100% sure that wort tastes quite good to a dog, any any nasties that live on your dog.

If there is any wort/beer dripping from the tap, nasties could land onto that, and track into the tap.


----------



## GregTheBrewer (27/7/18)

Bandit24 said:


> What does everyone think about the below that I posted earlier re: getting rid of equipment that may have been in contact with infected brews?
> 
> Couple of other questions regarding my potentially sullied equipment, how far do I need to go?
> 
> ...




Bandit, a couple of thoughts. Did you oxygenate all the off brews? Could be the diffuser stone that is harbouring bugs...boil it in the kettle for 15 minutes and then only handle it with sterilised instruments.

The other thing I thought...just an off chance...you say it is butterscotch flavour? Popcorn flavour? You are using FWK's as I understand? Do you add any extra water to them? Could this be band-aid flavour if it is too unpleasant to drink? Get a bottle of Pilsner Urquell to taste what classic popcorn diacetyl tastes like and compare. If you are adding some water to your FWK's, it could be chlorine in the water that is reacting with your yeast and producing the off flavours...if so you need to de-chlorinate your water. I only ask this question cos you were not entirely sure what the off flavour was, and you seem to be paying a lot of attention to sanitation


----------



## snails07 (28/7/18)

What does your fermentation temps and times look like?
I don't think you have an infection, I think it is just that your fermentations aren't quite as good as they could be. It sounds like you're pretty switched on with cleaning and sanitizing so I'd just about rule that out.

I've brewed in a garage for 6 or 7 years, dog coming in and out etc and have had no infections.

Your pitch rates sound okay, but for your next batch I'd 
- make a starter to help kickstart the yeast
- once krausen shows first signs of dropping, slowly increase temps a few degrees over a day or 2. This will help clean up VDK's
- stop checking in and tasting samples. More chance for things to go wrong. Patience really is the way to go.
- let it sit in fermenter for min. 2 weeks and then *slowly* lower temp over 3-4 days down to 0-2c and hold there for a day or two. Total around 3 weeks.
- again, stop taking samples all the time

I've been through very simliar situation, I'd almost guarantee it is a fermentation issue. Not long enough, temps not right, somehow shocking the yeast.


----------



## snails07 (28/7/18)

Oh, and the taste of the beer after day 3 or 4 or 6 is no indication at all of what it will turn out like. 
The beer changes dramatically over the first few weeks, and continues changing for a while after that as it conditions and ages.


----------



## Holden4th (28/7/18)

I've just got back into brewing, am trying out FWKs and have just kegged my second one today. The first one I did had a banana smell for the whole of the fermentation process and when I sampled it just before kegging, it had a slight banana taste. After two weeks in the fridge at 4 degrees there is no banana taste left and it's very nice so snails07 may have a very good point.

The one thing that stood out to me was the use of clingwrap on the top of the fermenter. I've done this and it's OK while you've got krausen but when the pressure drops and the clingwrap goes into a concave position it could lead to the introduction of some nasties. However, reading what you've done it doesn't seem like this is the issue. A website that I really like has this to say about diacetyl.

*MY BEER SMELLS OF BUTTER*



*Off Flavour*: Diacetyl

_*Chemical Name*: 2,3-butanedione


*How to Identify*: This one smells like butter, butter popcorn or butterscotch and can present with a slickness or creaminess on the tongue and in the mouth.


*What it is*: Referred to as brewing’s ‘original sin’, Diacetyl is present in most beers at some concentration and is a natural part of the brewing process. It can be a desirable flavour in small amounts in stouts and ales but is generally regarded as a flaw in most lagers.


*How it is caused*: Diacetyl is naturally produced by all yeast during fermentation and is then ‘reabsorbed’ by yeast cells. Any Diacetyl that is not reabsorbed may be a result of either high flocculating yeast, weak or mutated yeast, issues with oxygenating, low fermentation temperatures or short boils._

This brings me to a great piece of advice I was given (by a member of this community) as far as pitching your yeast goes when using FWKs. He suggested that you pour the first five litres into your fermenter and then add the yeast. If it's powdered then you need to give it time to spread across the surface of the wort to avoid clumping. If it's been rehydrated then it's not necessary. You then shake the crap out of it for at least 30 seconds before adding the rest of the wort and oxygenate in the usual way. This will speed up the fermentation process. It might be worth a try.


----------



## peterlonz (29/7/18)

OK, about 45 years ago when I started brewing we had no closed fermenters available.
My first attempts amounting to maybe a dozen brews were all of poor quality with off flavours that I was then unable to ID.
My Dad laughed often, & helpfully suggested Black Label Scotch would be lower cost. Most of the really awful ones went down the sink.
I then married & we occupied a small flat with an outdoor potting shed.
Suddenly my brews were free of whatever the problem was, fermented in "Gladwrap" covered washing machine bowl situated in the potting shed (no dog).
Up to this time I had always used undiluted bleach to sterilise my gear, and plenty of it!
Water was from the same municipal supply, gear was unchanged, method unchanged.
So what was going on?
I never discovered the true nature of the problem.
Looking back as I often have done:
Use a filter for any tap-water used. I now use an under-bench carbon block filter 0.5 microns & draw water at about 3 litres per min MAX.
Consider brewing somewhere else, maybe at a friends place, even if just to prove a point.
At the very least don't use the dog shed!! It may not be part, or the whole, of the problem but you have to isolate the most obvious first.
Use lots of undiluted bleach & sterilise everything, include bench tops, all utensils, thermometers, hydrometer etc. Wash & scrub your hands & lower arms. Lay your gear down on dead dry freshly laundered tea towels (as a surgeon would his instruments).
CAUTION: undiluted bleach is dangerous, use eye protection always & dress in old clean clothes.
The bleach needs an exposure time of around 2 mins, it must be run through your fermenter tap & it must be allowed to cover the fermenter top & saturate the airlock.
Of course you will finally need to thoroughly rinse, (twice) all treated equipment; use only boiled water, water from the filter recommended or hot water from your domestic kitchen supply. Note that some hot water supplies operate at below the pasturisation temp of 70 deg C. You need to be sure any used hot water is sterile, so it must be capable of storing & delivering at this temp. Adjust your thermostat if necessary.
BTW things are clean when they smell dead clean - after sanitising & rinsing you can do the nose test.
Keep things covered where you can or where unavoidable exposure to air is likely. 
Remember whatever organism is infecting your brews it's from: the water, the air, from you or your gear.
Keep trialing with K&K brews, and keep everything simple, don't follow red herring trails & you will find a solution even if not the exact source.
For the record: in the last 35 years I have had no infections in bottles, kegs, or in the fermenter.
Are my brews (from modified kits) great? Well they are OK but not fantastic.
That's the best I can offer, hope you sort this out soon.


----------



## hoppy2B (29/7/18)

1. Try a brew without dry hopping.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (30/7/18)

Bandit24 said:


> Do you think having the StarSan lid cracked open could effect the effectiveness of it in any way? For $10 or whatever StarSan is, I'm happy to chuck it and start again to be sure, but still curious about this one anyway.
> 
> .


Professional standards are if the seal is broken then discard.
Storing the mixed product:
Fresh is always best. The basic thing with storing starsan type sanitizer is your judgment. I will co2 purge a keg that is filled with phos sanitizer (like star san) push that sanitizer through very well cleaned kegs and then keep that ~18lt sanitizer on tap in a sanitary vessel. The basic is if its crystal clear and the pH is below 3.5 than its good. Mine actually reads at pH 2.5 - 3.0. If its got bits in it then when its fresh its ok, but if can see tiny contaminants in it, or its discolored or isnt crystal clear anymore than its shot. I have also let a bucket sit after that stage and it gets pretty funky. If its used too much it will definately spoil. Cross contaminations include chemicals as well like dont mix chems at all! Dont think that brewing cleaners can mix together. If it gets any beer in it its spoiled as it will get cloudy and slimey and get slimey strings growing through it. Other more scientific people here and elsewhere could talk on that but basic is cross contamination will spoil anything including sanitizer itself.

Re- Basic Rule. When in doubt, chuck it out. Phosphoric Acid Sanitizer is awesome. When used correctly! but Its not bulletproof. 
San regular is a mix to make it frothy and sudsy.
I use the 96% pure Phos, less bubbles and it goes further.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (30/7/18)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Professional standards are if the seal is broken then discard.
> Storing the mixed product:
> Fresh is always best. The basic thing with storing starsan type sanitizer is your judgment. I will co2 purge a keg that is filled with phos sanitizer (like star san) push that sanitizer through very well cleaned kegs and then keep that ~18lt sanitizer on tap in a sanitary vessel. *The basic is if its crystal clear* and the pH is below 3.5 than its good. Mine actually reads at pH 2.5 - 3.0. If its got bits in it then when its fresh its ok, but if can see tiny contaminants in it, or its discolored or isnt crystal clear anymore than its shot. I have also let a bucket sit after that stage and it gets pretty funky. If its used too much it will definately spoil. Cross contaminations include chemicals as well like dont mix chems at all! Dont think that brewing cleaners can mix together. If it gets any beer in it its spoiled as it will get cloudy and slimey and get slimey strings growing through it. Other more scientific people here and elsewhere could talk on that but basic is cross contamination will spoil anything including sanitizer itself.
> 
> ...





Starsan doesn't have to be crystal clear to be effective. 

If it's within the pH range it's fine.


----------



## MHB (30/7/18)

Not so much the foam but the wetting agent properties of detergent, it helps the sanitising part work better by getting it into and under any soil.
Personally not my favorite sanitiser and I'm very suspicious of "no rinse" - well ones that leave any residue.
Mark


----------



## mashmaniac (30/7/18)

Don't forget to bomb the ferment fridge. Having stripped so many over the years (yes mostly for the sake of this hobby) it is scary where mold and nasties can hide.


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

goatchop41 said:


> 1) No, it should be fine. Bacteria can't get through plastic.
> 
> 2) I would nuke all of the O2 gear (again, acidified bleach with multiple clean water rinses afterwards). If any of the parts for it are cheap and easy to replace, then you may as well just do that with those parts.
> 
> 3) All cold side stuff will either need to be nuked (can just boil the shite out of thick silicone hoses) or replaced, unless it is stainless, in which case it just needs a good clean with some caustic



Thanks 

When you say "cold side stuff" is that referring to fermentation equipment only, or does that also include bottles and bottle tree?


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

Swannie said:


> No one else has asked/mentioned:
> 
> Are you spraying sanitiser into the tap and waiting 20 secs or so before opening?
> Have you tried with an airlock in the lid instead of cling film?
> ...



Thanks for your post.

1. No, and thank you for bringing this up, because it definitely sounds like something that could be a problem. This will now be one of the first things I try.
2. Yes, but not recently. May be worth another try. All the advice I read on here was always "ditch the lid and go glad wrap". My main concern is air lock drawback during cold crash, what is your best way around this?

- I never open the glad wrap for any reason except dry hops, but no I don't replace the glad wrap after doing this.
- Dog definitely can't get to the tap
- I usually clean up any drips from the tap and then quick spray with starsan. However your point above about not spraying the tap itself could be a problem!


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

GregTheBrewer said:


> Bandit, a couple of thoughts. Did you oxygenate all the off brews? Could be the diffuser stone that is harbouring bugs...boil it in the kettle for 15 minutes and then only handle it with sterilised instruments.
> 
> The other thing I thought...just an off chance...you say it is butterscotch flavour? Popcorn flavour? You are using FWK's as I understand? Do you add any extra water to them? Could this be band-aid flavour if it is too unpleasant to drink? Get a bottle of Pilsner Urquell to taste what classic popcorn diacetyl tastes like and compare. If you are adding some water to your FWK's, it could be chlorine in the water that is reacting with your yeast and producing the off flavours...if so you need to de-chlorinate your water. I only ask this question cos you were not entirely sure what the off flavour was, and you seem to be paying a lot of attention to sanitation



The oxygen kit is only brand new and only used on the latest batch, so it's not the problem. 

It's a sweet flavour and although I'm not 100% sure, it most closely matches the description for Diacetyl, and I have had a good look through the complete off flavours PDF that is floating around. I wouldn't say band-aid. There's nothing else in the PDF that I can match the flavour with.

Interesting about Pilsner Urquell, I didn't know they had a perceivable Diacetyl level, I will definitely try one again and make sure the flavour is the same.

I am interested in finding out the best way to use water when brewing with FWK's. I have tried multiple ways over the past, and particularly on these latest batches that all share the same Diacetyl flavour, I have used both supermarket packaged spring water, and boiled tap water on different batches and had the same problem, so I'm ruling out water related issues.


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

snails07 said:


> What does your fermentation temps and times look like?
> I don't think you have an infection, I think it is just that your fermentations aren't quite as good as they could be. It sounds like you're pretty switched on with cleaning and sanitizing so I'd just about rule that out.
> 
> I've brewed in a garage for 6 or 7 years, dog coming in and out etc and have had no infections.
> ...



Thanks for those notes, will use on my my next batch for sure, definitely more in depth that what I do now, which is basically pitch and ferment at optimum temp, raise maybe 1-2 degrees towards the end of fermentation, then cold crash as quickly as possible.

But in regards to solving my problem, I'd love this to be a fermentation/yeast issue, I really would, but I just feel like I've had far too little success in brewing over the past 12 months for it to be completely blamed on yeast health (16 batches, only 3-4 ok/but still average tasting batches, the rest have had something wrong). Although who knows, with more info like the above and everything that has been provided in this thread, I'll do some new batches and see what works.

In regards to yeast shock, I know on one of my recent 20L batches, I accidentally turned off my temp controller/fridge at the power point for about 2 hours, and lost about 2 degrees on the fermentation temp, down to about 16c, which then recovered to 18c in about 30 mins. This was at about day 4 in fermentation from memory. Does this sound like something that would produce Diacetyl? I know this isn't my answer for everything, but just wondering either way.


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

Holden4th said:


> The one thing that stood out to me was the use of clingwrap on the top of the fermenter. I've done this and it's OK while you've got krausen but when the pressure drops and the clingwrap goes into a concave position it could lead to the introduction of some nasties. However, reading what you've done it doesn't seem like this is the issue. A website that I really like has this to say about diacetyl.



Thanks, what is your recommended method for the lid then? I know once pressure drops and during cold crashing, things can get sucked in, but still at odds to find the best method to seal up the fermenter during this time. Airlock can suck backwards, and perhaps glad wrap isn't a good enough seal. I've been looking for silicone bungs to place in the airlock hole, and cannot find them anywhere!


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

peterlonz said:


> OK, about 45 years ago when I started brewing we had no closed fermenters available.
> My first attempts amounting to maybe a dozen brews were all of poor quality with off flavours that I was then unable to ID.
> My Dad laughed often, & helpfully suggested Black Label Scotch would be lower cost. Most of the really awful ones went down the sink.
> I then married & we occupied a small flat with an outdoor potting shed.
> ...



Thanks for your help 

- I am renting and cant add a water filter, what is your best method besides filtering - boiled and cooled tap water?

- Good to hear that someone has been through a similar environmental problem and after reading a few things in this thread, I definitely need to try a new environment. 

- I'm not so keen on using heavy chemicals, would you say that a chemical like bleach can be replaced with something like StarSan? Or is the really no substitute for bleach?

- I'm not sure of my hot water temp, but I don't generally use hot water in the cleaning process. I would use warm water with Sodium Perc for cleaning, washed off with cold water, then StarSan. Do I need to introduce some hot water into this process?

Thanks for the insights, great to hear you've had no infections in 35 years, it gives me confidence that once I work out this issue it should be mostly smooth sailing!


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

hoppy2B said:


> 1. Try a brew without dry hopping.



Thanks, I tried this, avoided dry hopping for two batches straight and still got the problem


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Professional standards are if the seal is broken then discard.
> Storing the mixed product:
> Fresh is always best. The basic thing with storing starsan type sanitizer is your judgment. I will co2 purge a keg that is filled with phos sanitizer (like star san) push that sanitizer through very well cleaned kegs and then keep that ~18lt sanitizer on tap in a sanitary vessel. The basic is if its crystal clear and the pH is below 3.5 than its good. Mine actually reads at pH 2.5 - 3.0. If its got bits in it then when its fresh its ok, but if can see tiny contaminants in it, or its discolored or isnt crystal clear anymore than its shot. I have also let a bucket sit after that stage and it gets pretty funky. If its used too much it will definately spoil. Cross contaminations include chemicals as well like dont mix chems at all! Dont think that brewing cleaners can mix together. If it gets any beer in it its spoiled as it will get cloudy and slimey and get slimey strings growing through it. Other more scientific people here and elsewhere could talk on that but basic is cross contamination will spoil anything including sanitizer itself.
> 
> ...



Thanks, good info


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

mashmaniac said:


> Don't forget to bomb the ferment fridge. Having stripped so many over the years (yes mostly for the sake of this hobby) it is scary where mold and nasties can hide.



Thanks, this might have been an issue for me early on, but a few months ago I pulled apart the fridge as best I could, removed all glass shelves that I use, stripped off their plastic edges and cleaned, and also removed the door seal and cleaned. Also of course, just a full nuke of the inside of the fridge. And I've been giving the shelves/inside of the fridge a clean with sodium perc and starsan between each batch for the last 5 batches. 

One thing I've always wondered, is can a fridge harbour contaminants in say the fan, or somewhere in the drip tray type area? My fridge has a small outlet hole at the bottom for condensation to drip out. I've checked out the rear of the fridge and can't see anywhere thats pooling water or anything like that, but still, I have wondered if there would be a particular type of fridge design that would be the best for fermenting.


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

peterlonz said:


> OK, about 45 years ago when I started brewing we had no closed fermenters available.
> My first attempts amounting to maybe a dozen brews were all of poor quality with off flavours that I was then unable to ID.
> My Dad laughed often, & helpfully suggested Black Label Scotch would be lower cost. Most of the really awful ones went down the sink.
> I then married & we occupied a small flat with an outdoor potting shed.
> ...



Is paper towel an acceptable substitute for freshly laundered tea towels for laying down gear after being sterilised? I have tried paper towel, but usually just sanitise my kitchen bench with a spray of StarSan. I don't launder tea towels that often to be honest. What does everyone else do for laying down their instruments?


----------



## Bandit24 (31/7/18)

Thanks to everyone for your comments.

Reading back through everything in the thread, it seems that basically any single part of my process/equipment could be the cause of the issue, so essentially it's looking like the best option is to completely start again, with new equipment, in a new environment, with new chemicals and new processes, if I want to be completely sure. Otherwise I face a possibly lengthy and costly exercise trying to figure out which part of the exisiting setup/process is causing the issue by going through it bit by bit.

Whatever I decide to do, I'll eventually report back with my findings. Cheers


----------



## Bandit24 (27/8/18)

Bandit24 said:


> Thanks. Can you run the fans 24/7 with no electrical fire danger?



Anyone got a tip with this one? Can I really run a shitty little fan inside the fridge safely for 24 hours a day? 

I once had a battery operated camping fan burn out on me whilst sleeping in a car, nothing happened, but I'm nervous.


----------



## MHB (27/8/18)

I wouldn't want a fan dying in my fridge either, bad for the beer!
I mostly use computer fans, buy a decent one and they tend to last for years, if you go on a mission to find the worst cheapest piece of crap money can buy and it croaks... well I guess you got what you payed for.
Air in fridges tends to be cool and dry, probably the perfect conditions for a fans life expectancy.
Mark


----------



## Bandit24 (27/8/18)

Thanks Mark, how does a computer fan get power? I have no idea how to do any wiring type stuff. I've been looking for a regular 240v plug in fan. 
I'm happy to spend for something good, but everything that is small looks like this: https://www.target.com.au/p/velocity-desk-fan-tarvdf18/61496194


----------



## MHB (27/8/18)

Last one I brought was from Jaycar and they sell a plug on lead, just a little thin figure 8 wire so it will go under the door seal. Also got a couple of wire guards and put one on each side, cant recall the exact price but it wasn't too bad.
The one you linked to looks like it would work, might be a bit on the big side, depending on your fridge.
Found it Jaycar Fan Power Lead $3.95 online, needs a plug fitted
Mark

Fark Jaycars product search sux - M


----------



## Black Devil Dog (27/8/18)

Bandit24 said:


> Anyone got a tip with this one? Can I really run a shitty little fan inside the fridge safely for 24 hours a day?
> 
> I once had a battery operated camping fan burn out on me whilst sleeping in a car, nothing happened, but I'm nervous.




Jaycar have a few options. 

I've got 3 of these Katabat fans, ($16.95 each) been running 2 of them in my fermenting fridges for about 3 years now. The other one I use in my Kegerator. I disconnected the shit fan that came with it and put one in its place. 

The only other thing you'll need is a longer USB cable, as the one that comes with it is only about 500mm long. I bought a 1.5m.


----------



## garage_life (27/8/18)

Bandit24 said:


> Thanks for your help
> 
> - I am renting and cant add a water filter, what is your best method besides filtering - boiled and cooled tap water?
> 
> ...


Check out caravan water filters on eBay, not the best but 2 are sub $20 and have the standard ouch to connect garden house coupling male side nipples inclided.
Get some food grade hose and new fittings at the big green shed and run them both inline and use a low flow rate, renters delight.
I drain them spray with sanitiser and keep them in a bag in the fridge when not in use. Don't have any water data but the taste is greatly improved over straight from the tap (which is still drinkable).
Best budget and ghetto option I've found dollars for doughnuts.


----------



## Bandit24 (28/8/18)

garage_life said:


> Check out caravan water filters on eBay, not the best but 2 are sub $20 and have the standard ouch to connect garden house coupling male side nipples inclided.
> Get some food grade hose and new fittings at the big green shed and run them both inline and use a low flow rate, renters delight.
> I drain them spray with sanitiser and keep them in a bag in the fridge when not in use. Don't have any water data but the taste is greatly improved over straight from the tap (which is still drinkable).
> Best budget and ghetto option I've found dollars for doughnuts.



Thanks, this looks like a good idea


----------



## Bandit24 (28/8/18)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Jaycar have a few options.
> 
> I've got 3 of these Katabat fans, ($16.95 each) been running 2 of them in my fermenting fridges for about 3 years now. The other one I use in my Kegerator. I disconnected the shit fan that came with it and put one in its place.
> 
> The only other thing you'll need is a longer USB cable, as the one that comes with it is only about 500mm long. I bought a 1.5m.



Cool, saw these at Jaycar yesterday, good to know they won’t blow up. I was thinking they looked a bit similar to my camping fan that burnt out. In theory though if I want to use a 240v option the target fan I linked above can’t be too far off the Katabat fans right? How are you constantly powering the Katabat? A powerboard with USB charging ports?


----------



## Thomas Wood (28/8/18)

I can't remember each individual thing I bought but all up it was $40 from JayCar and the fan is overpowered. I wish I got a smaller fan and saved some $$$ but it definitely does the job.
I basically got this fan: https://www.jaycar.com.au/90mm-12v-dc-2-wire-fan/p/YX2521 (maybe I got 120mm I can't remember)
An adapter to go from the fan to the powerpack (~$5), then the powerpack to plug into the powerpoint (~$10-15).

I have it running for a month at a time and it works fine, since it's a proper computer fan.

I can take a better look when I am home tonight and send pictures of each part tonight if you want? But I told the JayCar guy what I wanted to do and he sorted me out easy enough.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (28/8/18)

Bandit24 said:


> Cool, saw these at Jaycar yesterday, good to know they won’t blow up. I was thinking they looked a bit similar to my camping fan that burnt out. In theory though if I want to use a 240v option the target fan I linked above can’t be too far off the Katabat fans right? How are you constantly powering the Katabat? *A powerboard with USB charging ports*?



You could use that, I've got a USB adapter plugged into an HPM safety powerboard

The 2 that are in my fermenting fridges are running nearly all the time, with the only exceptions being when I'm not fermenting. Which usually happens when I've kegged and it takes me a few days to get sorted to get the next batch going again.
The one I run in my kegerator goes 24/7.


----------



## mongey (28/8/18)

I'm in the Gong too. thirroul. I'm def no expert on off flavors and what they are though . you should hit up the IBU brew club page . sure someone would sample for you and tell you if it is diacetyl or an infection. they knowledgeable and have been super cool in my dealings with them. 

you said the kit and kilo tasted better. Have you tried just doing a kit and kilo ? I have def had mixed results with FWK's over the years I have used them . 

I have had beers which had off flavors in my 4 years for sure , . but never out of the fermenter .its something that develops after bottling .and often improves with time in the bottle


----------



## Deepregret (29/8/18)

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum (First post!), and this is one of the first posts I've read so I hope you don't mind me putting my 2 cents in.
My understanding of diacetyl is that it is in fact a flavour compound created by the fermentation process, that is reabsorbed by the yeast once fermentation is finished. Hence the phrase often used by brewers, "Diacetyl rest". That is, the time after fermentation has finished to allow the yeast to finish what it started and reabsorb these funky flavours!
Is it possible that you just haven't left your beer in the fermenter long enough? Just because your beer reaches its FG doesn't necesarily mean that the fermentation proces has completely finished.
A good way to test for diacetyl after fermentation, and to determine whether or not the diacetyl rest has finished is to put about 100mls of wort into a small conical flask (if you have one) and heat it up to about 80 degrees on the old cooktop! Once it's heated up, if diacetyl is still present you should be able to pick up that buttery/butterscotchy smell. If it's there, let your beer chill out in the fermenter for another day or so. As long as it's clean and air tight, infection won't be an issue. I generally leave my beers sit in the fermenter for at least a week after fermentation has stopped.

Anyway that's my thoughts on the issue. Let me know what you think!


----------



## raturay (29/8/18)

Deepregret
In my opinion you are 100% correct. This is pretty much exactly how it was described to me by my LHB (a very experienced, and I understand, qualified brewer). I have left some lagers on the yeast for almost a month for this purpose. I currently have a dark ale that fermented out to its FG (3 days at the same SG) two days ago. While there’s no evidence of diacetyl I have chosen to leave it on the yeast while we enjoy a week away at Evans Head! 
A great resource about diacetyl is the podcast from Beersmith where he discusses the subject with the Pope of Foam Dr Charlie Bamforth. Great listening.


----------



## pirateagenda (29/8/18)

i'm pretty sure ive picked up a pedio infection in one of my taps. Had a lacto sour on tap for a couple of months, then the next beer (an XPA) was great tasting for the first 2 weeks, but has since developed a diacetyl taste. I swapped taps thinking it may have just been a dirty tap, but the beer is gone in the keg. The infection must have travelled down into the keg through the lines.I'm worried now that the tap I swapped the beer 

I've ordered new beer lines and disconnects - just going to chuck the old ones. but what's the best way to nuke the bugs in the kegs and taps. Boiling or chemicals?


----------



## MHB (29/8/18)

Deepregret said:


> Hey guys, I'm new to this forum (First post!), and this is one of the first posts I've read so I hope you don't mind me putting my 2 cents in.
> My understanding of diacetyl is that it is in fact a flavour compound created by the fermentation process, that is reabsorbed by the yeast once fermentation is finished. Hence the phrase often used by brewers, "Diacetyl rest". That is, the time after fermentation has finished to allow the yeast to finish what it started and reabsorb these funky flavours!
> Is it possible that you just haven't left your beer in the fermenter long enough? Just because your beer reaches its FG doesn't necesarily mean that the fermentation proces has completely finished.
> A good way to test for diacetyl after fermentation, and to determine whether or not the diacetyl rest has finished is to put about 100mls of wort into a small conical flask (if you have one) and heat it up to about 80 degrees on the old cooktop! Once it's heated up, if diacetyl is still present you should be able to pick up that buttery/butterscotchy smell. If it's there, let your beer chill out in the fermenter for another day or so. As long as it's clean and air tight, infection won't be an issue. I generally leave my beers sit in the fermenter for at least a week after fermentation has stopped.
> ...



Good first post!
You are right, up to a point, what you covered is pretty much on the money for Diacetyl produced by yeast during fermentation. If you have a good population of healthy yeast and give it the chance it will reabsorb all VDK's (Diacetyl is a member of a group of chemicals collectively known as Vinyl Di-Ketones). Where people run into problems is when there isn't enough good healthy yeast - two sides to that, stressed yeast well produce more VDK and be less able to get rid of it.

There are also a fair number of bacteria that can produce VDK, we have to work out whether the VDK are a byproduct of fermentation or infection - then manage the cause.
Mark


----------



## Bandit24 (14/9/18)

RE: Fan inside fridge. 

I'm starting my cold crash and as usual I'm getting some condensation in the fridge on the back wall. Is it safe to keep running the fan under these conditions?


----------



## altone (14/9/18)

Deepregret said:


> Hey guys, I'm new to this forum (First post!), and this is one of the first posts I've read so I hope you don't mind me putting my 2 cents in.
> ...
> A good way to test for diacetyl after fermentation, and to determine whether or not the diacetyl rest has finished is to put about 100mls of wort into a small conical flask (if you have one) and heat it up to about 80 degrees on the old cooktop! Once it's heated up, if diacetyl is still present you should be able to pick up that buttery/butterscotchy smell.
> ...
> Anyway that's my thoughts on the issue. Let me know what you think!



Well Deepregret my friend, I've never noticed diacetyl in any of my beers and was wondering if I'm one of those people who have a really high tolerance to it.

My nose works well [It should do with the size of it ] 
so I'll try this little titbit in a few days when the next brew is at a stable SG.

Thanks, I've never seen this mentioned before (unless I forgot of course)


----------



## Bogan333 (24/9/18)

*Here is an Article I did in 2016 on diacetyl

Note: new studies after I did this article are saying now when dry hopping, second diacetyl rest is needed.*



*A lot of brewers would consider it a flaw.*

All through some classic beer styles call for low levels of diacetyl. Which gives off a buttery or butterscotch aroma and flavour. Some beer drinkers actually find diacetyl to be enjoyable

*So what is Diacetyl,*

It is a small organic compound that belongs to the ketone chemical family that is derived from yeast in the fermentation stage as a by-product.







Formual (CH3CO)2

In the 1950's diacetyl levels were found in the range of 0.2 to 0.3mg/l. Today it's about 0.05mg/l

*So how does it happen,*

All brewers yeast stains produce it, some more than others like high flocculent yeast stains. And others have the ability to absorb and reduce diacetyl. Fermentation problems like control of temperature can also affect the diacetyl levels.

Higher the temperature results in faster yeast growth and acetolactate. The higher the acetolactate peck, the higher the diacetyl peck but higher temperature also increases diacetyl reduction.

Lower yeast growth rates can reduce the amount of acetolactate produced, it can result in higher level of diacetyl in the finished beer if the lower growth rate results in lacklustre fermentation.

It is often beers that ferment more slowly and produce less acetolactate that have problems since to yeast are still slowly producing acetolactate late into fermentation.

The vanilla tone which is often confused with caramel flavouring, definitely adds to the smoothness of the beer. The problem is that diacetyl at these levels is unstable and eventually will turn into headspace air. As consequence, these beers typically have a short shelf life and do not travel well.

The other ketone of interest is 2,3 pentanedione which together with diacetyl forms a beer's vicinal diketones (VDK) aromatic volatile compounds.


*So what can I do prevent it*



As always go overboard with your sanitation from start to finish
Make a healthy yeast starter at least four days out from brew day,
BeerSmith is a great program that gives you the recommended stater size.
Two days out from brew day chill your stater to 6c to settle the yeast.
At the end of brew day when chilling your wort have it 2c below your target Fermentation temperature.
When Pitching only pitch the yeast slurry.
24 hours after pitching increase the temperature by 1c, 48 hours again by 1c. You how should be at your target temperature.
On the last two days of Fermentation increase the temperature by 2c, this will absorb the diacetyl.
Carry out force diacetyl test or VDK
At the end of Fermentation cold crash, your beer slowly over days down to 3c and hold or another day.
Bottle or keg your beer as normal.

*I hope this has helped you in your pursuit of brewing better beer*

Cheers

Sandgroper

(George Copley)


----------



## peterlonz (24/9/18)

One potential problem I don't see mentioned here is your water source.
Most home brewers use tap water treated by the local authority.
But quality does vary substantially from region to region & sometimes within a region.
The problem disappears if all water is boiled to pasteurize, but that takes ages & takes a lot of time.
An alternative (which I have used for years) is to purchase a high quality water filter.
Generally they use two coupled filters. one to remove particles bigger than about 5 microns & a second "Carbon Block" filter to filter down to 0.5 microns. If you restrict the flow rate to about 2 litres per minute & change filters annually this should make a vast improvement.
Of course trial & error is the only way to know unless you have access to a lab for such testing.
For other reasons many years ago, I suspected our local water was infected with Gikaria. I called the local council & they promptly came, took water sample & within a week reported all clear.
Worth thinking about!


----------

