# Munich Helles Questions



## DKS (6/8/09)

Hi all. A few questions about Munich Helles. I made a mental note to try one after reading guidelines some time ago.Now its time.
There seems to be a lot of info on Dunkel but Im having trouble getting much on a Helles. Recipes, ingredients etc. The Helles info found seems to use many different malts nothing stands out as standard.Ive tried many searches but still having troulbe. Including finding catagory styles and guidelines. Its 1E I think.
Probably best just to list questions
1. Linky anybody?To style guide lines or ingredients etc.
2. What does Helles actuallly mean?( I only speak english and jibberish)
3. Can I make one doing steep or mini mash using household kitchen type gear?
4. Recipe?
5. Any problems to look out for?
6. Can I get away with a dry yeast? Was thinking W- 34/70.
Thats the basics to get a start. Any other info would also be appriciated. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## cliffo (6/8/09)

DKS said:


> Hi all. A few questions about Munich Helles. I made a mental note to try one after reading guidelines some time ago.Now its time.
> There seems to be a lot of info on Dunkel but Im having trouble getting much on a Helles. Recipes, ingredients etc. The Helles info found seems to use many different malts nothing stands out as standard.Ive tried many searches but still having troulbe. Including finding catagory styles and guidelines. Its 1E I think.
> Probably best just to list questions
> 1. Linky anybody?To style guide lines or ingredients etc.
> ...



Hi Daz,

1. Munich Helles about 2/3 down the page
2. Helles = bright (well that's what google tells me)
3. You could probably get away with something close. I'd recommend doing a mini-mash
4. I have an AG recipe if your interested (though maybe not 100% true to style)
5. Pitch enough yeast for a good ferment, keep ferment temp below 12 degrees
6. 34/70 should work well for this style

Cheers,
cliffo


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## white.grant (6/8/09)

Helles is German for "light" so it's a light lager from Munich. I have one fermenting at the moment based on Jamil's recipe in brewing classic styles. He has an extract recipe as well. You should track down the podcast on the brewingnetwork for more information. The style is in the bjcp, 1d page 2, shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Don't know about that yeast, I'm using the wyeast 2308 and Jamil suggests S-23 for a dry yeast.

cheers

grant


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## O'Henry (6/8/09)

When you say Helles means 'light' do you mean pale or weak in abv? I am assuming pale, but just want to clarify...


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## Kleiny (6/8/09)

1. Google BJCP or VICBREW they have the style guidelines for all beer styles.
2. Helles = Light, but not in alc only in color, body and flavour (nothing really stands out over anything else)
3. Yes of course you can just make sure you start of with a light malt and work from there.
4. Google beerdejour it has a lot of recipes
5. Balance is key remember this is a session beer drank in 1L Steins.
6. Get a decent yeast for this one as any fermentation flaws will show through as it has no wear to hide. Its a light lager with low bitterness where fermentation is critical and must be clean (no esters)

Goodluck

Kleiny


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## marksfish (6/8/09)

light as in pale, +1 forbrewing classic styles


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## Screwtop (6/8/09)

Have made a few batches of Munich Hellesbier, pretty much an off the rack Southern German Lager. We need Zwickel to post here but my understanding of Helles is pale or a pale lager. 

Pretty much a 1.048 gravity lager 50/50 Pale and Pils malt and bittered to around 20 IBU with a Noble hop like Tettnang or Spalt. Use a typical Germal lager yeast and mash long and low for a FG of 1.011 as you want the 20IBU to stand up and be counted.

Screwy


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## jayse (6/8/09)

Interesting beer styles, I look at/think of helles in comparison to the other pale lager styles. If you line up german pilsner, dortmunder and helles its the differences between each one you can easily use to describe what makes them individual.
For instance german pils you expect to be mostly dry and bitter with noble hop finish and fresh grainy pils malt character. Then with the dortmunder you bring the malt and hops more into perfect balance (because german pils leans to dry bitterness and fresh noble hops). The key to dortmunder (export or whatever you wanna call it) is a more perfectly balanced similar beer.
With that you can look at helles as the one at the other end and the balance is toward the malt. The malt is not the rich munich style though its the same malt character to a degree through all three beer styles, light grainy pils/pale malt. So helles can be a similar beer style to the other two but the hops should be underdone to a degree and its more about the grainy pils malt.
So in its most basic you can look at all three styles the main difference being the amount of hops, I would say with helles though its not quite as balanced toward the malt as german pils is toward hops. :unsure:


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## Zwickel (6/8/09)

Screwtop said:


> Have made a few batches of Munich Hellesbier, pretty much an off the rack Southern German Lager. We need Zwickel to post here but my understanding of Helles is pale or a pale lager.
> 
> Pretty much a 1.048 gravity lager 50/50 Pale and Pils malt and bittered to around 20 IBU with a Noble hop like Tettnang or Spalt. Use a typical Germal lager yeast and mash long and low for a FG of 1.011 as you want the 20IBU to stand up and be counted.
> 
> Screwy


yeah Scewy is right.

The term hell means bright/pale/light, just referable to the colour
Helles = light coloured beer

in opposition to Dunkles
a dunkles or dunkel is a dark beer, not as dark as schwarz beer, but anyway dark. 

Schwarz beer is black, absolutely black.

So, if youre going to brew a beer that has the coulour of a lager beer, or a pilsener, but its not really a lager or pilsener by definition, is just undifined, then we call it a Helles.
Its just a collective name for beers at a bright colour.


Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (6/8/09)

I pretty much made the Munich Helles Recipe from brewing classic styles and this went down a treat with a few of the guys at the vic xmas case swap. To be honest, just observing the BJCP guidelines, its the kind of malt profile i would be shooting for with a helles anyway. You could try the following:

OG 1.050
IBU 20
90%~ Pilsner malt
8% Munich
2% melanoiden

20IBU Hallertau 60min boil

If you are feeling adventerous, drop the melanoiden, Sub with Munich/pilsner (your choice) and do a decoction mash. One thing i also did was change my water profile to be moderatly hard but BALANCED. Its noted in the guidelines to shoot for moderatly carbonate water: e.g.

Ca 114, Mg 2, Na 5, SO4 26, Cl 90, HCO3 91


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## DKS (6/8/09)

Wow, thanks for all the replys.After a bit of reading Ill hopefully get something organised for a brew over the week-end. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## discoloop (6/8/09)

Before winter's out I'm thinking about doing an extract helles using the Weyermann Pilsner extract available from sponsors. Will augment with a mini-mash of munich, meladonin and a little more Pils malt. I might be a little unholy and use POR and SanFran Lager yeast since I have them on hand, but a helles is all about the malt anyways... 

I reckon the Weyermann extracts are probably going to give the best results possible with extract (I think they're decoction mashed) but I haven't used them before. Has anyone had good results?


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## DJR (7/8/09)

I have one conditioning at the moment which was 95% Aussie Pils, 5% Weyermann Vienna, mashed at 65C, bittered at 60 minutes only with Nelson Sauvin and Magnum 50/50 to get to about 20IBU and fermented with WLP833.

WLP833 is a good choice, lovely and malty which is what you want - the malt should be a lot more prominent than the hops. Also doesn't take much to condition it, at the moment i'm "lagering" at 8C after the ferment happened around 13C and it tastes very good. Another week in the fermenter and it'll be good to go. WLP833 is good for alot of other styles as well so it seems like a good choice for a "workhorse" lager yeast. I reckon Pils (not quite Czech style though), Bock, Vienna, Oktos, Marzen, basically anything German and lager can use it. Even an aussie style lager could be done with it, it'd be quite similar to Boags premium.

Helles basically means Light, Bright or Pale depending on the translation.

Most mainstream lagers that call themselves "Pilsner" style beers have gravitated towards being of this style in terms of colour and IBU spec (Heineken, Becks etc), but a real Helles should be maltier.


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## therook (7/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> I pretty much made the Munich Helles Recipe from brewing classic styles and this went down a treat with a few of the guys at the vic xmas case swap. To be honest, just observing the BJCP guidelines, its the kind of malt profile i would be shooting for with a helles anyway. You could try the following:
> 
> OG 1.050
> IBU 20
> ...




Yep 4star can certainly brew a Helles 

Rook


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## aaronpetersen (25/6/10)

Fourstar said:


> I pretty much made the Munich Helles Recipe from brewing classic styles and this went down a treat with a few of the guys at the vic xmas case swap. To be honest, just observing the BJCP guidelines, its the kind of malt profile i would be shooting for with a helles anyway. You could try the following:
> 
> OG 1.050
> IBU 20
> ...



Fourstar, can you remember what mash temp and time you used and which yeast?


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## Fourstar (25/6/10)

AaronP said:


> Fourstar, can you remember what mash temp and time you used and which yeast?



Wyeast Bohemian or Munich Lager. I'm not at home so i cant check the recipe, gut feeling says the Munich Lager.

Mash would have been something like a 67-68deg for 60 mins.

After only recently having a fresh Paulaner Helles on draught, the recipe i posted close to 12 months ago is pretty much spot on for style. Being a traditionalist you would want to go for 100% pilsner malt and do a decoction. Me being lazy find a 10% blend of munich and melanoiden does the job nicely.

Make sure you keep the hopping rates LOWWWWW, dont exceed 20IBU. This beer is about the malt and supporting bitterness. As noted earleir in this thread, its meant to be drank in large quantities. :icon_cheers:


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## Swinging Beef (25/6/10)

I reckon Helles, like most German Lager, is one of the hardest beers for home brewers to get right.
Its all about temperature control, patience and moderation.
Something most of us lack the ability to control any two of at the same time!

YOu cant have a thread about Helles or Hell beer without this artikkkle.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...-Fing-beer.html


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## Bribie G (25/6/10)

I've avoided Munich Helles because I was under the impression that it needed soft water, and the water hereabouts is pretty meh. However I'm surprised to see 4*s comments from last year about water hardness. hang the expense, I have all the salts and considering doing one on springwater with declared salts on label, and adjust myself.

OT but does anyone know of a cheap source of RO water? I believe that Coca Colas "Pump" brand is RO but that's out of the question $$$$, but wondering if any of the supermarket bulk brands are RO as opposed to just filtered.


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## Fourstar (25/6/10)

BribieG said:


> I've avoided Munich Helles because I was under the impression that it needed soft water, and the water hereabouts is pretty meh. However I'm surprised to see 4*s comments from last year about water hardness. hang the expense, I have all the salts and considering doing one on springwater with declared salts on label, and adjust myself.
> 
> OT but does anyone know of a cheap source of RO water? I believe that Coca Colas "Pump" brand is RO but that's out of the question $$$$, but wondering if any of the supermarket bulk brands are RO as opposed to just filtered.




how stuffed is your water supply bribie? If you can keep your carbonates low, that should be fine. Back when i posed that i wanted to try the balanced Ca:HCO3 approach, now i'd just focus on getting a little bit of hardness in there. Just like your summer ales/light quafers just bump up the Ca content with some CaCl2 and a little sulfate and you are good to go.

Maybe something like:

Ca 70-100ppm 
Cl 100 ppm
SO4 50 ppm
HCO3 (whatever your supply is) hopefully less than the Ca level.


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## Wonderwoman (27/7/10)

has anyone tired (or had problems) doing a helles with a NC cube? 

if I remember correctly, pils malts produce a lot of DMS so quick cooling is critical for recipes with a high pils content? 

I'm looking at making a helles for a club comp, but as I NC I'm wondering if it's worth it or not?


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## WarmBeer (27/7/10)

wonderwoman said:


> has anyone tired (or had problems) doing a helles with a NC cube?
> 
> if I remember correctly, pils malts produce a lot of DMS so quick cooling is critical for recipes with a high pils content?
> 
> I'm looking at making a helles for a club comp, but as I NC I'm wondering if it's worth it or not?


I hear ya 

My understanding is that the pre-cursors to DMS are driven off by the boil process. Packaging the finished wort in the no-chill cube and closing the lid shouldn't offer any opportunity for these chemical compounds to be "re-absorbed" back into the wort.

Some brewers recommend a 90 minute boil for these lighter style lagers, to ensure sufficiant time to fully drive off the DMS. You will need to balance this against the possibility of the extended boil time darkening the wort due to caramelisation.


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## jakub76 (27/7/10)

As it's full of Pilsner I would suggest a 90 minute boil and cooling as quickly as you can. I still don't have a wort chiller, I pop my kettle into an ice bath and (depending on season) it takes about 90 minutes to get to 25C. Then it's into the fermenter and into the fridge until at pitching temp. Doing a No-Chill cube would risk more DMS production.

I made a respectable Helles back in May. 

88% Pilsner
6% Munich
4% CaraPils
2% Melanoidin
Mashed at 66C
21IBU Perle & Hallertauer (using up stores)
WLP830 

Overall it's pretty nice but it's just too grainy for me. Next time I'll be ditching the Melanoidin and using Wyeast 2308. I used the 830 to test it out - it produces a lot of sulphur while fermenting then it tastes very pronounced while it's conditioning. It needs at least a month lagering for the yeast flavour to settle out, I guess most lager yeasts do but I prefer 2308 which conditions quicker and leaves a little more sweetness IMO



> the no-chill cube and closing the lid shouldn't offer any opportunity for these chemical compounds to be "re-absorbed" back into the wort.


Those DMS pre-cursors develop when the wort is at a high temperature. So a long boil will drive them off but sealing in a cube at near boiling temp will mean they will continue to develop with no way to escape while the wort remains hot.
Also I always do a 90 minute boil with almost no effect on colour, a decoction mash will darken the beer but an extended boil will have a negligible impact on colour. Here's a pic of my house lager - 90 minute boil and still pretty light, albeit a little hazy.


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## Wonderwoman (27/7/10)

thanks for the feedback... might just see if I can borrow a wort chiller for a day

edit: warmbeer - I think jakub is right about the DMS continuing to be produced while it's slowly cooling


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## Bribie G (27/7/10)

I've made several German Pils lately to get the hang of them, then go for a Helles. I've been using Galaxy malt as a base but tricking it up with Vienna or Munich for a more 'authentic' taste. 90 minute boil and no problems so far with DMS. And I no chill. However if it's for a comp then the extra expense of an ice bath could be a winner. Some servos do three bags for $6 and that should do the trick. 
My last one turned out thus:


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## WarmBeer (27/7/10)

wonderwoman said:


> thanks for the feedback... might just see if I can borrow a wort chiller for a day
> 
> edit: warmbeer - I think jakub is right about the DMS continuing to be produced while it's slowly cooling


Opinions are many and varied.

Might have to just give it a go, JW Pils and No-Chill, and enter in the same comp. Will only brew to 16lt, incase I end up with a full 30 longnecks of yummy corn nectar :icon_drool2:


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## Bribie G (27/7/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Opinions are many and varied.
> 
> Might have to just give it a go, JW Pils and No-Chill, and enter in the same comp. Will only brew to 16lt, incase I end up with a full 30 longnecks of yummy corn nectar :icon_drool2:



I've actually made a Pale Continental Lager for a forthcoming State comp, BJCP class 2.3 and it mentions the use of adjuncts. In the case of Euro lagers that's maize. So I did 

4000 BB Galaxy
1000 Polenta 
330 Carapils

And put it into lagering four days ago. I had a sneaky taste on transferring it and no evidence of DMS. If this thread is still live in three weeks I'll have some in the keg and will report :icon_cheers: although that's probably a bit late for your comp.


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## beerbrewer76543 (27/7/10)

Jamil's whirlpool chiller and discussion on DMS production: LINKY


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## WarmBeer (27/7/10)

BribieG said:


> I've actually made a Pale Continental Lager for a forthcoming State comp, BJCP class 2.3 and it mentions the use of adjuncts. In the case of Euro lagers that's maize. So I did
> 
> 4000 BB Galaxy
> 1000 Polenta
> ...


Comp's not til next year (Bayside Brewers internal comp), so let us know how it goes.

Hmm, 4:1:0.3, that's starting to look like a pretty common set of ratios for your brews, Bribie :icon_cheers:


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## Wonderwoman (27/7/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Opinions are many and varied.
> 
> Might have to just give it a go, JW Pils and No-Chill, and enter in the same comp. Will only brew to 16lt, incase I end up with a full 30 longnecks of yummy corn nectar :icon_drool2:




yeah - I guess I'm just paranoid after that one batch I had that reeked of creamed corn :icon_vomit: 

and it didn't even use any pils!


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## Fourstar (27/7/10)

wonderwoman said:


> yeah - I guess I'm just paranoid after that one batch I had that reeked of creamed corn
> and it didn't even use any pils!




I hvant had any issues with 90-100% pilsner malt beers no chilled after a 60 minute boil (JW Pils).

for the helles, keep your IBUs low (15-18) with a single 60 min/fwh boil addition and a moderate mash temp and you are in helles town! :icon_cheers: add a touch of melanoiden or munich for that added hint of fake decoction lazyness.


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## Bribie G (27/7/10)

Fourstar said:


> ....................................... add a touch of melanoiden or munich for that added hint of fake decoction lazyness.



I hear you 4* :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Fourstar (27/7/10)

BribieG said:


> I hear you 4* :lol: :lol: :lol:




I now know why women fake it. it makes the process so much quicker and ends without any tears (or scorching your grains/dough balls). :lol:


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## reviled (27/7/10)

LOL!! Nice :lol:


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## cdbrown (27/7/10)

Definitely don't want to scorch your balls


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## RdeVjun (27/7/10)

BribieG said:


> OT but does anyone know of a cheap source of RO water? I believe that Coca Colas "Pump" brand is RO but that's out of the question $$$$, but wondering if any of the supermarket bulk brands are RO as opposed to just filtered.


Rainwater, FTW? If you don't have any yourself, surely someone nearby has some? I know you're near the sea & all (rainwater from near the sea IS saltier than inland), but even so that would be where I'd start, and it is in fact- that's all I use for brewing and just make it up as you've got in mind for the RO.


Fourstar said:


> for the helles, keep your IBUs low (15-18) with a single 60 min/fwh boil addition and a moderate mash temp and you are in helles town! :icon_cheers: add a touch of melanoiden or munich for that added hint of fake decoction lazyness.


When used alone and even though melanoidin is supposedly malt on steroids, maybe it is just me but I find it gets sweetly offensive at the rates needed to get the decent malty flavours (difficult to describe now- sorry, its been ages). OTOH, decoction is a piece of cake, just not quite as reliable, though I still like the effects. 
Also, decoction is another way to ingratiate one's self with SWMBO who, in addition to all the other brewing hardware scattered about the place, just adores the other half cooking up grist on the stove...


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## Wonderwoman (28/7/10)

Fourstar said:


> I hvant had any issues with 90-100% pilsner malt beers no chilled after a 60 minute boil (JW Pils).



hmm... the other thing I probably should have mentioned is that the urn I use doesn't give a very strong boil, especially on a cold day, so that may be the source of my problems


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## King Brown (28/7/10)

L_Bomb said:


> Jamil's whirlpool chiller and discussion on DMS production: LINKY



Interesting read! When I do invest in/build a chiller I think I'll give this a go


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## argon (28/7/10)

wonderwoman said:


> hmm... the other thing I probably should have mentioned is that the urn I use doesn't give a very strong boil, especially on a cold day, so that may be the source of my problems



That was where I isolated my problems with DMS... just wasn't boiling hard enough... had a few batches using light grains and had nothing but cook vegetables. Terrible. :icon_vomit: Now I boil the shit out of it I just compensate with a touch more water and the results are miles apart. 

If your only just getting a rolling boil with your urn keep the lid partially on (like half and half), but let the condensation from the boil on the underside of the lid drip away from the wort so it doest re-enter youll notice it'll boil a little easier yet still be extracting the dms precursors.

Good luck


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## Wonderwoman (28/7/10)

argon said:


> If your only just getting a rolling boil with your urn keep the lid partially on (like half and half), but let the condensation from the boil on the underside of the lid drip away from the wort so it does't re-enter you'll notice it'll boil a little easier yet still be extracting the dms precursors.
> 
> Good luck



clever  

I think the batch that had DMS had been boiled with the lid on in order to get a stronger boil (I wasn't aware of the potential problem at the time, so took no note of it), so I haven't used the lid since then, but didn't consider angling the lid so the condensation drips outside the urn... I'll have to give that a go next time.


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## RdeVjun (28/7/10)

This works for me WW, with any luck you could arrange something similar for an urn:




Wouldn't blame you for removing your urn's lid after the DMS experience! The lid partially- on like this seems to reduce the heat needed to maintain the boil, also lowers evaporation rate marginally (based on empirical evidence only...). Gives me an all- over good feeling that I'm helping to save the planet etc...

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

Ps. Nb. Pryex measuring/ graduated cylinder- no hassles with boiling wort melting the plastic SG cylinder. Only a few clams at lab supplies firms, well worth it.


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## jakub76 (28/7/10)

Insulation!


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## WarmBeer (6/8/10)

Fourstar said:


> ... One thing i also did was change my water profile to be moderatly hard but BALANCED. Its noted in the guidelines to shoot for moderatly carbonate water: e.g.
> 
> Ca 114, Mg 2, Na 5, SO4 26, Cl 90, HCO3 91


Thinking of trying my hand at a Munich Helles, and have some questions about water treatment.

Looking at the "Munich, Germany" profile in Beersmith, it suggests a target Ca of 75ppm, and HCO3 of 200 (as Fourstar mentioned "moderately carbonate"). This could be achieved (close enough) primarily through the addition of 5-6g of CaCo3 in the mash.

However, this seems to fly in the face of Tony Wheeler's "Key Concepts in water Treatment", which recommends "calcium carbonate CaCO3 - very dark beers only". Very dark is not how I would describe a Helles 

Is this just a peculiarity of this particular style/region, or am I missing something more fundamental due to my inexperience in this area?


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## Bribie G (6/8/10)

According to Palmer

London - The higher carbonate level dictated the use of more dark malts to balance the mash, but the chloride and high sodium content also smoothed the flavors out, resulting in the well-known ruby-dark porters and copper-colored pale ales.

Also they couldn't do Hoppy Burton style ales originally until they learned how to Burtonise the water, with more sulphates, which allowed more hoppy beers. So I guess that reading between the lines, Helles is a lightly hopped beer so maybe this is the reason for the Carbonates as opposed to the dark malts aspect.

In brewing UK Best bitters I have always gone "hop accented, chuck in Gypsum and Epsom Salts, malt accented chuck in chalk and calcium chloride". Seems to work. :icon_cheers:


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## felten (6/8/10)

The water that is supplied to the brewery (or what is reported as being used in the town god knows how long ago) is not necessarily what they use for brewing, no help on numbers here, just sayin'.


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## WarmBeer (6/8/10)

Have done a bit more reading, and it appears the "Munich, Germany" profile might be appropriate for the dark beers, i.e. Munich Dunkel, but not so much for a Helles, which apparently only started being brewed after they worked out how to "decarbonate" their native water.

Going to go with a "pinch of this, pinch of that" approach which will get me near the ballpark for Ca, SO4, Cl and HCO3:
Gypsum: 1.5gm
CaCl: 3gm
Chalk: 3gm​


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## Fourstar (6/8/10)

honestly, throw my previous qote out the window.

go for something simple as your expected final volume concentraions

Ca 50-100ppm~
Cl 150-200ppm~
SO4 100ppm~

ignore the carbonates, not required. (even if BJCP so). its malt accentuated beer, focus on having a Cl:SO4 ratio of 2:1.


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## WarmBeer (7/8/10)

Fourstar said:


> honestly, throw my previous qote out the window.
> 
> go for something simple as your expected final volume concentraions
> 
> ...


Thanks Fourstar, that simplifies things quite a bit.

7gm CaCl and 3.5gm CaSO4 gives me ~90ppm Ca, 70ppm SO4 and 130ppm Cl in 28lt total water (small batch)

Will give this a go soon.


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## Fourstar (8/8/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Thanks Fourstar, that simplifies things quite a bit.
> 
> 7gm CaCl and 3.5gm CaSO4 gives me ~90ppm Ca, 70ppm SO4 and 130ppm Cl in 28lt total water (small batch)
> 
> Will give this a go soon.




these figues will concentrate as you boil down to 23 L (if you do), so keep that in mind. i always count my figures as a final volume so i know how much i have in the final product and add to the boil as "water flavour" additions. i always have atleast 50ppm Ca in the mash water (calcualted from dough in water) for enzyme activity. 

To each their own.


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## felten (8/8/10)

I'm interested in how you figure your additions out four*. So you always add 50 ppm of calcium to your mash volume, then just adjust the chloride and sulphate for flavour in the boil? are you figuring any losses into your numbers from the mash, or that everything carries over from the mash into the boil, then the FV?

Trying to calculate losses in does my head in at times, I know you lose calcium to various reactions, but the Cl/SO remain the same and concentrate down to the final boil volume?


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## Thirsty Boy (9/8/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Have done a bit more reading, and it appears the "Munich, Germany" profile might be appropriate for the dark beers, i.e. Munich Dunkel, but not so much for a Helles, which apparently only started being brewed after they worked out how to "decarbonate" their native water.
> 
> Going to go with a "pinch of this, pinch of that" approach which will get me near the ballpark for Ca, SO4, Cl and HCO3:
> Gypsum: 1.5gm
> ...



Exactly... For the life of me I can't understand why people are so damn fixated on the "traditional" brewing waters. Most of the beers we know these days were developed after people became aware of how to treat their water.

Me, I'd be brewing my helles with Melbourne tap water, and enough CaCl to give you 50 or so ppm of calcium. Sulphate... I wouldn't bother, I think sulphates and noble hops don't mix so spectacularly well - at best not needed, and at worst (what I think) your beer will be better without it.

Carbonates.... I think it's insanity to put carbonates into pale lager, the vast majority of breweries around the world work their arse off to get carbonates OUT of their water supply and certainly all the ones who brew pale lager.

Melbourne tap water is wonderful for lagers of all descriptions, apart from having to make up for it being a little low on calcium - treatment is basically unneeded.

TB

PS - ok, i understand that you need some sulphates for a dortmunder.. But apart from that.


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## Wisey (12/8/10)

Dont fix what aint broke.....

My water makes good beer


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## manticle (12/8/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> , I think sulphates and noble hops don't mix so spectacularly well




can you elaborate TB? Just fiddling around with water alterations the last few brews (with only a very basic understanding of what I'm doing) and just gettig into lagers (usually ale man) while hte weather is colder. I also love noble hops (particularly tettnanger).


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## Fourstar (12/8/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Sulphate... I wouldn't bother, I think sulphates and noble hops don't mix so spectacularly well - at best not needed, and at worst (what I think) your beer will be better without it.




maybe its just me but what about for the sharpness and dryness of a german pilsner? i feel sulfates are a requirement. Besides having no saaz, its what helps define the difference between the palate sensation of a German and a Bohemian Pilsner. it helps it bump hop forward over the malt/hops harmony of a bohemian.

Understandably the Helles is a malt driven beer but just a touch, for me is enough to help take the edge off the malt sweetness of a helles. :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy (13/8/10)

Fourstar said:


> maybe its just me but what about for the sharpness and dryness of a german pilsner? i feel sulfates are a requirement. Besides having no saaz, its what helps define the difference between the palate sensation of a German and a Bohemian Pilsner. it helps it bump hop forward over the malt/hops harmony of a bohemian.
> 
> Understandably the Helles is a malt driven beer but just a touch, for me is enough to help take the edge off the malt sweetness of a helles. :icon_cheers:



Nah, not for me. For mine you can make a wonderful crisp light German pils with totally soft water, it's about malt selection, mashing technique and yeast. You can get away with more sulphates in a German pils than a boh pils or a helles... But that's what I think you are doing, getting away with it.

But it's a personal preference thing for me, I simply don't like what sulphates do to noble hops.. Makes them harsh and not really all that noble anymore. And I can taste sulphates in pale lager... Not my cup of tea. If you can show restraint with the things, fine - but in Melbourne tap water you only need a teeny amount of salts to radically change the sulphate to chloride balance - and people insist on chucking spoonful of the stuff in there. 100s of ppm of things.... You don't need hundreds of ppm of anything in any beer.

Hell, if sulphates make your beer pop for you, I'm not saying don't use them... I am saying that they aren't a "must have" for any of the lager styles except a dortmunder; and that with pretty much any of the water you get from surface catchments in Victoria, if you can't make a good lager with it straight out of the tap - it's not the water that's the problem.


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