# Chlorine Removal - Time Versus Temp?



## manticle (15/4/12)

Has anyone information on or a link to the temperature and time relationship between chlorine in water and its volatility as a gas?

I know boiling will remove chlorine (though I'm not sure how long it takes) and I know agitiating will assist (again no idea on time) and I know that simply standing overnight will remove most chlorine but how much and how long and what is the relationship between time and heat?

Basically trying to work out if heating strike water for single infusion is enough. If it is, is heating strike water for lower rest temps like acid rest or protein rest enough? How long does the water need to stand at _y_ temperature to remove _x_ ppm of chlorine?

Many thanks (just trying to nut out the last bits of this water chemistry article and can't find the info I'm looking for).


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## Wolfy (15/4/12)

I do not mean to derail your thread, but assuming you're thinking about a municipal water supply, is it chlorine that you need to remove or chloramine (which is harder to remove)?


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## manticle (15/4/12)

Chlorine.

I know chloramine can't be removed by heat.


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## MHB (15/4/12)

Quick look at a solubility table gives you the answer



Effectively insoluble at 100oC so just getting to a boil should kick out all of it.
To the best of my knowledge no one uses Chloramines to treat water in Australia, there might be a couple of exceptions but unless you know differently you can assume they have uses gaseous Chlorine or Hyperchloride.
Mark


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## np1962 (15/4/12)

MHB said:


> Quick look at a solubility table gives you the answer
> View attachment 53748
> 
> Effectively insoluble at 100oC so just getting to a boil should kick out all of it.
> ...


Some SA country areas receive Chloaminated water.
"Chloramination (a combination of chlorine and ammonia)
is used by SA Water for disinfection in longer water pipelines
such as those in country areas, where it is longer lasting than
chlorine alone."
From This Report
As MHB has stated though no metro water supplies are treated in this way AFAIK.
Cheers
Nige


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## manticle (15/4/12)

@MHB,

Thanks for your reply.

I know for certainty that Melbourne water is treated by chlorine treatment only. Not sure about the rest of AU but you are probably correct.

However the article I'm trying to write needs to address other possibilities - it's being written mainly for BJCP study but it's also worth considering what might happen to your beer if you moved overseas for example..

Thanks for the graph. If I am reading it correctly, chlorine will solubilise in water around <20 degrees so once you start pushing above 20 deg, it starts to dissipate. The higher the temp, the more and the quicker it will dissipate so boiling water will essentially contain none.

The areas I'm most interested in are the areas between 40 and 70 degrees as this is typically where strike water might reach before being added to grain. Most single infusion brewers will dough in around 70-78 degrees* and I'm fairly confident that that will be hot enough to drive off most chlorine enough to make no difference to the finished product). However a step masher doughing in between 45 and 65* degrees (depending on rest and not an exhaustive range) - would they need to leave it to sit at that temp for much longer or is the concern a beesdick's worth of an ant's fart in Spring?

One final question Mark.

The article that I'm writing will hopefully be of benefit to people here as well as the BJCP study group and I want to make sure that I can present a simplified version of water/mash chemistry without including any fundamental errors or ignoring important information (hence the recent threads on this and zinc).

I'd ask this via PM but I believe you have shut yours off.

I have asked a few people to view the article at various points to check for any basic/fundamental errors and to suggest possible edits and revision. Dr Smurto was one of the people kind enough to look through and offer feedback. He made various suggestions and comments and suggested you might be an appropriate person to glance through as well and offer your perspective.

I know we don't have the best history online. I take that as granted; one day it may change but that is neither here nor there to me. However, I do respect your experience and knowledge (and always have done so) on most things brewing related so personality clash/whatever other clash aside, would you be willing to look through the document and offer any suggestions, error corrections etc, bearing in mind its intended purpose (simplification for the homebrewer without fundamental errors)?

If so, how can I send it to you?

If not, would you be kind enough to edit the wiki articles section with any sensible corrections _when_** I post it here on AHB, keeping in mind the intent and effort to make it as correct, current and logical as I possibly can? (ie. constructive editing)

**Which won't be for a while - bjcp study group first then revised to make it non melbourne, non bjcp specific and then to add in text referencing, then to post it on AHB.

Thanks

*system dependent - I lose 10 degrees on average to grain temp absorption but BIAB and other systems will vary so that's rough. Essentially the regions between acid rest and high sacch rest is where my interest lies.


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## MHB (15/4/12)

Its difficult to pin down exactly how much Chlorine is in tap water my local supplier says 0.0-1.5 mg/L by the time it reaches the tap.
Taking a look at the solubility table above, at 80oC the solubility is still over 3g/L, thats 3,000mg/L so in effect No, you cant be sure of ejecting the Cl2 until you reach boiling.
The other option being to add Metabisulphite, in theory about 1.34 mg/mg of Cl2, in practice about 3mg is usually used, if we take 1.5 mg/L as being at the higher end we would want to add 4.5mg/L or to 30 litres of strike water 135mg or 0.135g. A Campden tablet weighs about 0.5g or enough metabisulphite to de-chlorinate over 100L of tap water.
Im not the worlds biggest fan of the old stinky white powder but I think if you seriously wanted chlorine free I would bung half a Campden tablet in for a 25 L brew and use a whole one in double batches. As these doses there shouldnt be any problem using a small amount of Metabisulphite and arguably there are some benefits ask thirsty boy when he resurfaces.
MHB

My PM box isnt closed and my email address is in my sig, I did close PM for a while as too many people wanted to do business via PM, as a retailer I try very hard to keep me and my business separate and keep business related posts strictly in retail threads.
MHB


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## manticle (15/4/12)

I'll send you a pm then. 
Thanks for the info.


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## Feldon (15/4/12)

manticle said:


> Has anyone information on or a link to the temperature and time relationship between chlorine in water and its volatility as a gas?
> 
> I know boiling will remove chlorine (though I'm not sure how long it takes) and I know agitiating will assist (again no idea on time) and I know that simply standing overnight will remove most chlorine but how much and how long and what is the relationship between time and heat?
> 
> ...




This table is from a study looking at chlorine removal from water by aeration at various temperatures (and also by solar radiation and charcol filtration). 




According to the abstract of the paper:

_Chlorine removal by aeration at various temperatures was not effective. Free chlorine
concentrations in sample #3 (S3) slightly decreased from 1.66 to 1.41 mg/L in open bottle
on a dark shelf (26C) and from 1.67 to 1.43 mg/L in open bottle in a refrigerator (5C)
for 3 days. Also, for chlorine removal in water by freezing (-20C) and melting (5C),
free chlorine concentration slightly decreased from 1.68 to 1.56 mg/L in open bottle for 3
days. In an additional analysis after 1 month, however, almost the same concentration of
free chlorine as that shown on the third day was detected (1.35 mg/L in open bottle on a
dark shelf), which indicates the long residual effect of chlorine._​
Download the full paper (PDF) from a link at http://hendryutilities.com/ 
(the link is halfway down the page in left hand column)
The table (and others) is on p. 84.

Hope this helps.


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## Dazza88 (15/4/12)

I am interested to know which areas in Australia use chloramine.


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## Dazza88 (15/4/12)

I am interested to know which areas in Australia use chloramine.


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## bevdawg (15/4/12)

If chlorine buggers off at 100c, does this mean that making a brew with unfilted chlorine water (melbourne water) will have all chlorine elements taste removed when you do the boil? Or, by that stage are bad flavors already in the wort that cannot be removed?

I'm just wondering as I've started to filter my water before each brew, but if the chlorine is removed during the boil am I wasting my time?


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## bum (15/4/12)

manticle said:


> I know for certainty that Melbourne water is treated by chlorine treatment only.


While this may be true (can't say either way), I am fairly confident that the _pipes themselves_ may very well be (periodically) treated with chloramine. Been a little while since I've been out of the game so this may well have changed recently.


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## 1974Alby (17/4/12)

bevdawg said:


> If chlorine buggers off at 100c, does this mean that making a brew with unfilted chlorine water (melbourne water) will have all chlorine elements taste removed when you do the boil? Or, by that stage are bad flavors already in the wort that cannot be removed?
> 
> I'm just wondering as I've started to filter my water before each brew, but if the chlorine is removed during the boil am I wasting my time?




anyone have any insight on this question?? I too would love to know if there is any point in chlorine removal when the wort will be boiled anyway...or does the chlorine negatively impact the mashing process?


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## Feldon (17/4/12)

Albainian said:


> anyone have any insight on this question?? I too would love to know if there is any point in chlorine removal when the wort will be boiled anyway...or does the chlorine negatively impact the mashing process?




This statement regarding how free chlorine affects the mash is from a BJCP document :




(see http://beerbarons.org/pdf/brewU/402_BJCP/F...udy%2BGuide.pdf )


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## Whiteferret (17/4/12)

Chloramines can also be created by free chlorine coming into contact with organic substances in a pool so maybe using chlorinated water for your mash(high in organics) could produce chloramines.


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## redbeard (17/4/12)

I thought from my of reading Sydney Water webpages, that it mostly uses chloramine rather than chlorine ... hence carbon filter or campden tablets to counter it.


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## szopen (19/4/12)

whiteferret said:


> Chloramines can also be created by free chlorine coming into contact with organic substances in a pool so maybe using chlorinated water for your mash(high in organics) could produce chloramines.




I belive that creation of chloramines resulting from reaction between free available chlorine (FAC) and grain (which will happen) is exactly what Manticle is trying to avoid.

City tap water *should* have a FAC content around 0.5ppm, it is frequently lower especially during warm season.

I have a bit of experience playing with water and tap water stored in tank overnight at temperature of 30C had no FAC left next morning.

So if removal of FAC is the aim, heating tap water to 40-45C should be enough to get rid of it.


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## szopen (19/4/12)

Forgot to add that if this is work done for study paper I would suggest getting your hands on some equipment for testing chlorine level and checking what happens as temperature raises.


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## manticle (19/4/12)

I missed all of the recent replies while my computer had a fit a few days ago.
Many thanks.

Interesting replies, unfortunately making things slightly more complex but worthy of digestion.


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## 1974Alby (19/4/12)

Feldon said:


> _Chlorine removal by aeration at various temperatures was not effective. Free chlorine
> concentrations in sample #3 (S3) slightly decreased from 1.66 to 1.41 mg/L in open bottle
> on a dark shelf (26C) and from 1.67 to 1.43 mg/L in open bottle in a refrigerator (5C)
> for 3 days. Also, for chlorine removal in water by freezing (-20C) and melting (5C),
> ...




this doesnt seem to reconcile with common advice in relation to chlorine in aquarium water...standard practice (other than de-chlorination with chemicals) is to let tap water stand for 48 hours to de-chlorinate it prior to introducing fish ...the results above suggest this does bugger all. I wonder if the fish know this?


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## manticle (19/4/12)

Some of the above tests were done at 5 deg C ad the highest (if I read correctly) were done at 26.. The graph MHB posted earlier suggests around 20 is where chlorine will start to come out of solution so that may explain the supposed discrepancy.


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## [email protected] (19/4/12)

Its like going to a hydrotherapy pool or a spa water can be around 30 - 32degrees, you can smell the chlorine gassing off, it upsets my partners asthma so that she cant even enter the establishment.


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## szopen (19/4/12)

Beer4U said:


> Its like going to a hydrotherapy pool or a spa water can be around 30 - 32degrees, you can smell the chlorine gassing off, it upsets my partners asthma so that she cant even enter the establishment.



In pools/spas there is a chlorination system that keeps adding (in may possible ways) chlorine when the free available chlorine level drops below set point (3-5ppm from memory). 

This is different from a container of tap water that had much lower level of FAC to start with (0.5ppm) and keeps losing free chlorine with time passing and temperature raising.


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## manticle (10/4/13)

Just ressurecting this so I don't pollute another thread.

Feldon - if you read this, do you know of any other papers looking at removing chlorine at different temperatures (so along the lines of the graph posted earlier? The paper you posted has bottles at a max of 26 degrees showing very little dissolution - curious about other vessels and temp stages.

Main reason i'm trying to find out is so I know whether I need to edit the info in to the article I wrote on water chem.

I'll check the databases I have access to as well.


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## Feldon (10/4/13)

manticle said:


> Just ressurecting this so I don't pollute another thread.
> 
> Feldon - if you read this, do you know of any other papers looking at removing chlorine at different temperatures (so along the lines of the graph posted earlier? The paper you posted has bottles at a max of 26 degrees showing very little dissolution - curious about other vessels and temp stages.
> 
> ...


That's the only one I found, Manticle. When I get a moment I'll have a quick trawl and see if there are others available on the internet. I recall a lot of the research papers I found were more interested in keeping the chlorine in the water rather than getting it out.

Reason I was looking it up at the time was that I've long had a suspicion that residual chlorine is a main contributor to homebrew twang in kit beer. From time to time a thread comes up here about the dreaded twang and the debate starts up again. The usual causes claimed are poorly made/stored malt extract, inferior supplied kit yeast, high ferm temps etc - but never a definitive consensus on the cause, but an almost universal cry of "go All Grain" and you'll never suffer the twang again).

Then there have been posters who claim they never get the kit twang in their beers (and are promptly flamed as a result for having lousy beer palates). But it got me thinking. I'd read that chlorine can react with hop oils to produce an off 'medicinal' flavour to beer. It occurred to me that a main difference between kit brewers and all grain brewers is that the former add tap water to hopped extract to produce their wort for fermentation. All grain brewers on the other hand have already boiled the water component of their wort in the kettle (which removes residual chlorine) before any hops are added. So bingo, no twang.


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## manticle (10/4/13)

Interesting hypothesis but have you ever tasted medicinal chlorephenol flavour from residual chlorine in brewing? I have and find it very distinctive and different from my experience of 'kit twang' - both when I brewed kits and when I have tried others kit beers.

Nonetheless it might be worth some kind of experiment. Levels of chlorine might also be a factor and the one brew that had band aid from unrinsed bleach in the cube (an AG brew) might have had elevated levels.


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## Feldon (10/4/13)

No I haven't. But if you have access to it maybe try mixing some with me beer and see if the complex reminds you of kit twang (just don't go poisoning yourself I the process!). Be interested to know.
Its just a speculation that residual chlorine is the culprit. But I haven't heard any definitive cause for the twang. Lots of ideas though. So many variables (extract, yeast, temp etc) that I went hunting for constants. The different treatment of the brewing water (kits vs all grain) combined with the different waters brewers use at different localities (and at different times of year per locality) raised my suspicion that chlorinated water was the constant. Not enough evidence to convict, but would be good to apprehend the bugger. Home brew twang remains one of the mysteries of the craft, although I also suspect that the big kit makers would know a lot about it, but keep mum for commercial reasons.


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