# Sanitization



## robbiep (19/12/12)

Hi guys,

Besides temperature control, sanitization is also a very important fundamental to get right in home brewing.

I still have all my kit in the Coopers Box, but i plan to sanitize it all before i starts (even though its not really necessary).

I plan to get into AG brewing as soon as possible, but i guess it doesnt make a difference what brewing method you use, sanitization plays an important role.

I have the following questions on the topic:

1: Can regular non-scented bleach be used to sanitize equipment?
2: How you do sanitize your equipment i.e. throw everything into your fermenter then let soak for a while, then rinse?
3: Whats the best agent to use for sanitization?
4: How do you sanitize PET bottles?

Look forward to hearing your feedback.

Regards,
Robbie


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## mikec (19/12/12)

Someone will be along shortly to tell you to "do a search".

Me, I'll just tell you that sanitise is spelled with an "s".

Most common options for sanitising are Starsan and Idophor. Both are non-rinse and are available in most home brew stores.
Make up a solution per the instructions (1:1000-ish) and soak everything in the solution for at least a minute.
You can drip dry but don't rinse - this effectively "un-sanitises" your gear.


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## felten (19/12/12)

Starsan is the way to go. You can use bleach, but any residue on your brewing gear will taint the beer.

For bottles I tip some starsan in each, shake for a while, and drain on a bottle drying tree.


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## jaypes (19/12/12)

You can use bleach, most people here use StarSan, Phosphoric Acid dilution, Iodophor, NapiSan etc - its really up to you whatever you prefer and what suits your wallet.

I chuck everything in the fermenter and spray away

I use phosphoric acid diluted (personal preference), I used to use Iodophor 

I wash them in PSR, then spray inside with phosphoric acid, lids get soaked in phosphoric acid as well. Underneath the plastic seal sometimes concerns me but you can replace the lids pretty cheaply if your are worried.

I always wash bottles after I empty the contents so there is no dried yeast residue

After you do this for a while you can see why so many people are kegging

</my2c>


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## carniebrew (19/12/12)

I got a bag of "Stericlean" with my starter kit from Aussie Brew Makers. It's a cleaner and sanitiser all in one...you simply put a couple of tablespoons into your fermenter, with 10 litres of warm water, put the lid on and give it a good shake. If cleaning an FV that's just been emptied, I use a soft rag to wipe off all the krausen after i've shaken. Then open it up and drop in all your bits, paddle/o ring/grommet/little bottler/can opener etc. Leave it be for at least an hour. Then open it up, take all the bits out, and tip out the solution (I do this in the bath). 

Fill with another 10 litres of warm/hot water, re-seal and shake. Empty over the bits sitting in your bath. Do that again one more time with 10 litres of water. At the end everything is absolutely sparkling, and odour free.

So that's been really easy. But when this bag of Stericlean runs out, i'm likely to move to no-name unscented napisan (Sodium Perc) for my cleaning, then Starsan for sanitising.

For my bottles, I rinse them twice with hot water after use, then put them in a box. On filling day, they don't need cleaning 'coz they already are. I use a no-rinse sanitiser solution (currently Morgans no rinse, but eventually Starsan), fill the first bottle 2/3rd's to the top, pick the bottle up and shake. Then pour the solution via a funnel into the next bottle and repeat. Each sterilised bottle goes to one side. Once all done, and about to fill, I invert the bottle one last time to drain any remaining drops of solution out of them, then fill.


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

Unscented nappisan or sodium percarbonate is a cleaner. You use it to clean grime off your equipment and fermenter usually at the end of brew day.
Starsan and Idophor is a sanitizer usually used during brew day to sanitise your equipment and fermenter as explained in previous posts.

Do yourself a favour and get some no rinse sanitiser like starsan. You will be glad you did. I used to rinse my sanitiser with boiling water and now use sanitiser and its great. you might get some foam in your bottles after draining starsan out but dont worry the foam is fine and in fact can help the yeast to some degree. You can fill your bottles with the foam inside and it wont hurt anything.

Also make up a solution of starsan and put into a spray bottle. You can use this to spray things that are harder to rinse in solution including your arms and hands before you start to bottle. I spray the inside of my fermenter tap and around the top before I open the lid.


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## robbiep (19/12/12)

Great, thanks for the advice... looks like Starsan is the way to go 

Do you need to dilute it?


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## Florian (19/12/12)

Completely :icon_offtopic: 

FTFU:


mikec said:


> Someone will be along shortly to tell you to "do a search".
> 
> Me, I'll just tell you that, in Australia, sanitise is spelled with an "s", whereas in the US it is spelled with a "z" and in the UK both variants happily exist next to each other.


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## stux (19/12/12)

robbiep said:


> Great, thanks for the advice... looks like Starsan is the way to go
> 
> Do you need to dilute it?



Starsan is diluted 1.5ml per L

so, to make up a 3L jug of starsan measure out 4.5ml with a baby medicine syringe 

That 3L of Starsan should be enough for your entire brew day, and to fill up your spray bottle, airlock and blow-off bottle.

Just pour the 3L into your fermenter, seal, and shake etc

At that rate a 900ml bottle will last you a long time


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## bignath (19/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> with another 10 litres of warm/hot water, re-seal and shake. Empty over the bits sitting in your bath. Do that again one more time with 10 litres of water. At the end everything is absolutely sparkling, and odour free.



....empty over the bits sitting in your bath?

Youve got to be fuckin kidding me....please tell me your joking.

'Cause i suppose a bath is really really clean. After all, it is where people wash all their dirt , grime and germs off of themselves...

EDIT: What do you use to get rid of the excess moisture from all your stuff 'post bath'...your dishcloth?


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## carniebrew (19/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> ....empty over the bits sitting in your bath?
> 
> Youve got to be fuckin kidding me....please tell me your joking.
> 
> ...


Damn, did your mum tell you how dirty we made the bath? I asked her to keep it a secret.


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## bignath (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> Damn, did your mum tell you how dirty we made the bath? I asked her to keep it a secret.



You know, theres just something about you i dont like. Cant quite put my finger on it.

You just seem to be the type of wanker that doesnt give a shit if the info or opinions he posts leads new brewers up the garden path or not. Remember, what you put up here stays up here for a ******* long time.

Next thing you know there will be stack of brewers posting questions like: 

'I washed all my stuff in my bath, and now my beers infected - can someone tell me why?'

There is nothing you can say that can justify why cleaning your stuff by pouring water over it in the bath tub is a good idea.

Btw, im not even gonna entertain the thought of mother jokes. Its a pretty low act.


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> You know, theres just something about you i dont like. Cant quite put my finger on it.
> 
> You just seem to be the type of wanker that doesnt give a shit if the info or opinions he posts leads new brewers up the garden path or not. Remember, what you put up here stays up here for a ******* long time.
> 
> ...


Actually little man, you are a pretty low act. You continue to attack mine and other posts with your vicious, petty and childish approach. Yet so very rarely do you add anything of actual value to this forum. A little dull light goes off in your head and you immediately attack. Maybe *your* bath is filthy and covered in germs. That doesn't mean everyone's is. How do you even know that the bath I use for cleaning brewing equipment is used by anyone? Would you have posted the same thing if i'd mentioned the laundry sink? The same sink in which I occasionally wash dog shit off the bottom of my shoes? Let alone the fact that the bath i'm cleaning in has just had 10 litres of stericlean solution poured all over it....somehow these magical fairies that spread germs in my bath each night have bred a super-bug that can survive that. Your response is ridiculous and inflammatory, and makes me think you're still stinging from being shown up for the knucklehead you are in previous debates where you assumed your way was the only way. 

Let's stop for a minute and think about how you could have done this better (**** me it's like talking to a 6 year old). If you were really concerned about the cleanliness of my bath, why not write:

"I have a few concerns about carniebrew's use of a bath to sanitise his brew gear. Baths can harbour germs that could infect your gear after you've cleaned them. Keep that in mind".

And then most people wouldn't immediately think "Fark me there goes tiny Nathaniel off on his usual rant again, man that bloke can be such a cnut." If you used your same words below to challenge someone's statement in the pub you'd likely get your head smashed in. Why do you think it's right to do so on this forum?

I mean seriously dude, I have had PM's from other members of this forum talking about what a complete waste of air you are. Surely that's embarrassing for you. But no doubt this is falling on deaf ears, and i've just wasted another 5 minutes of my life on responding to you, something i'm sure I swore to myself i'd never do after last time.

Go buy yourself a box set of Mythbusters for xmas, and make sure it includes the episode that shows the toilet seat harbours less germs than the kitchen sink....then freak out about me cleaning my gear in a pristine bath.

Any chance you could actually tell the OP *your* way of cleaning/sanitising your gear? Or unlike me, are you too scared of having your methods put up for public scrutiny after pissing all over everyone else's? I am producing HOME BREW here fer chrissakes, at a cost of $10 a slab. I'm not making baby formula. I use a risk vs reward model to decide on my processes, and so far i've made nothing but infection free, top quality beer. There's a million things I could do better, and i'm tipping the same thing goes for 99% of home brewers on this forum. Just coz I do something others might disagree with doesn't give you the right to scream "you've got to be ******* kidding me", and make some smart arse comment about a dish cloth. Grow up and stop acting like a complete turd.


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## sp0rk (20/12/12)

*cough*


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## Damien13 (20/12/12)

Epic....


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## dammag (20/12/12)

You know carniebrew. This could have all been avoided if you just had have washed out your bath with bleach before putting your brewing stuff in there. :lol:


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## bignath (20/12/12)

my answers in red.



carniebrew said:


> Actually little man, you are a pretty low act. You continue to attack mine and other posts with your vicious, petty and childish approach.
> It's not petty and childish. What your doing (or more correctly where you are doing it) is asking for trouble. Other brewers that are gonna read about your method need to be aware it's not a good place to clean your stuff. Unless of course you clean and sanitise your bath tub before you clean your shit, and if your gonna go to that much effort, there's easier way to do it in that case.
> Yet so very rarely do you add anything of actual value to this forum.
> That's almost laughable that one.
> ...


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## jaypes (20/12/12)

Much better than The Real Housewives of New Jersey


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## Damien13 (20/12/12)

Would this be a bad time to ask about why my airlock isn't bubbling???





quick... DUCK FOR COVER!!!! ARRRGHHHHHH!


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## QldKev (20/12/12)




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## Damien13 (20/12/12)

QldKev said:


> View attachment 59458




HAHHA awesome....

Yeah, Chuck Norris doesn't need to sanitise... Bacteria are way too scared of his fists....


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## Damien13 (20/12/12)

Of note RobbieP, most of us on here are a lot more relaxed and way less argumentitive...

Good luck with whatever cleaning/ sanitising solution you find.

Personally, I PBW then starsan. Just follow the instructions on the bottle and you can't go wrong... well, I guess you could... but it would be pretty difficult...

I frigging love home brew and home brewers... whooop whoop! Let's share the love a bit more...
C'mon guys... hug it out.... hehe


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## jammer (20/12/12)

Wow. Awesome. 
A concise reply by nath. 

"Only producing homebrew here" comment amazed me. 
I think maybe someone should take a touch more pride in their craft. 
I know the majority of people on this site do. 

I stick my airlock in my arse. Bubbles just fine.


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

QldKev said:


> View attachment 59458


GOLD. Chuck Norris' home brew doesn't get bacterial infections. Bacteria gets Chuck Norris infections.

Oh and RobbieP, whatever you do, DON'T turn the lights on or off during the cleaning of your equipment, or answer your mobile. You could die months down the track when drinking the beer you made that day, and nobody will ever know why: http://mythbustersresults.com/hidden-nasties


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## bignath (20/12/12)

robbiep said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Besides temperature control, sanitization is also a very important fundamental to get right in home brewing.
> 
> ...



Hi Robbie,

apologies mate, seeing as how i helped derail your thread, thought i'd better add my answers to your questions. Sorry again...

Righto..

1. You CAN use bleach to sanitise your gear, but unless you dilute to an appropriate rate it's certainly not no-rinse, and in this scenario it can linger around for a fair while. This will require extended rinsing which kind of defeats the point of having a sanitiser.
I forget what the dilution rate is (it's here on AHB somewhere, others know what it is, but i've forgotten as i don't use bleach). When mixed accordingly, it is an acceptable non rinse method.

2. My method, and keep in mind i'm AG brewer so this is MORE applicable to cold side (post boil) of beer production:
At the end of the current fermentation and beer has been transferred to kegs or bottles, i immediately take fermenter inside and use hot tap water and a hot water pressure sprayer to blast away the scum ring, and yeast crub in the bottom of fermenter.
Once it is visibly clean, i give it a couple of maybe 5lt hot water rinses, swirling it around the fermenter and draining.
Then i refill with hot water and a lid's worth of unscented Napisan (or alternative). Fill it until it foams and as soon as the liquid under the foam overflows the fermenter, i turn off the tap. If i have any other items that need it, they get thrown in the fermenter too.
Leave this usually overnight (not because i need to, just 'cause there's no rush at this point).
Drain, and another quick hot rinse to get rid of Napisan residue. The water will "bead" down the walls of the fermenter by now and it looks all squeaky clean.
If i'm gonna refill it straight away, i do so in a clean, draft free environment in the house. Otherwise, i add a solution of my sanitiser (in my case a non rinse product called BacBan which is used in the hospitality industry) and glad wrap and store until ready. In which case i would then remove glad wrap, tip out as much sanitiser as i can, and then refill.

I use the above method for cubes as well as fermenters.

In case of my kegs (i don't bottle anymore), i do the same just without the hot water pressure spray as there's no scum to get rid of.

No cloths, no scrubbing just a simple process that works well - Provided i'm organised. Nothing worse than forgetting to clean a cube or fermenter for a week and then discovering it.

3. The best sanitising agent?
Well, i can tell you the most common around here is Starsan. A lot of people use it. I would too if i didn't have 5lt's of my stuff to get through. I have a mate who works in hospitality and catering distribution and therefore got me a good deal on the 5lt's. I've given away a litre or two to other brewing mates, and still will have many years of it left.....when it runs out though...

4. I keg.


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## gunbrew (20/12/12)

Nath to avoid further misunderstandings you should put a warning with your avitar.
Perhaps something like:

"Hey F'wit, I'm berating you to help brewers"

Then next time your hacking into someone they will understand your a top bloke who is only acting this way to help brewers.

Cheers.


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## squirt in the turns (20/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> Otherwise, i add a solution of my sanitiser (in my case a non rinse product called BacBan which is used in the hospitality industry) and glad wrap and store until ready.



Something to add to this, speaking from personal experience: I don't know what BacBan is composed of, but Starsan is mostly phosphoric acid. Don't do the above with Starsan. It's brilliant and there are a lot of good reasons why it's pretty much the go-to sanitiser. However, phosphoric acid eventually decomposes into some flavour(s) of phosphate(s), which are essential nutrients for many types of plant and animal life. Hence Truman's earlier comment that residual foam can actually help yeast. Starsan solution keeps well in sealed containers, but exposed to the atmosphere it becomes ineffective pretty quickly (cloudiness is a good indication that your solution's farked).

I've left a fermenter sealed with a few hundred mils of Starsan solution, and come back to it a couple of months later to find something black and green growing in the liquid. I'm pretty fastidious about cleaning and didn't store the fermenter with any discernible soil remaining in it. Obviously there was a lot more atmosphere than Starsan in this fermenter. Unless I'd wanted to be wasteful and fill the whole thing with solution, I'd have been better off storing it dry, or with a bit of Napisan solution (what I now do) or a dishwasher tablet and water (what a lot of others do) in it.

Disclaimer: this happened when I was mixing Starsan with Gold Coast tap water. Even in a sealed container it would go cloudy after a couple of days. I now use demineralised water which keeps for months once mixed.


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## NewtownClown (20/12/12)

jammer said:


> I stick my airlock in my arse. Bubbles just fine.


 Sanitised first, I hope. Your arse, that is.


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## Truman42 (20/12/12)

robbieP,

Have a listen to this Brewstrong podcast on sanitation. They talk to the owner of five Star chemicals, the manafacturer of Starsan. There is lots of good information on cleaning and sanitising.

Sanitation podcast


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## drsmurto (20/12/12)

squirt in the turns said:


> Something to add to this, speaking from personal experience: I don't know what BacBan is composed of, but Starsan is mostly phosphoric acid. Don't do the above with Starsan. It's brilliant and there are a lot of good reasons why it's pretty much the go-to sanitiser. However, phosphoric acid eventually decomposes into some flavour(s) of phosphate(s), which are essential nutrients for many types of plant and animal life. Hence Truman's earlier comment that residual foam can actually help yeast. Starsan solution keeps well in sealed containers, but exposed to the atmosphere it becomes ineffective pretty quickly (cloudiness is a good indication that your solution's farked).
> 
> I've left a fermenter sealed with a few hundred mils of Starsan solution, and come back to it a couple of months later to find something black and green growing in the liquid. I'm pretty fastidious about cleaning and didn't store the fermenter with any discernible soil remaining in it. Obviously there was a lot more atmosphere than Starsan in this fermenter. Unless I'd wanted to be wasteful and fill the whole thing with solution, I'd have been better off storing it dry, or with a bit of Napisan solution (what I now do) or a dishwasher tablet and water (what a lot of others do) in it.
> 
> Disclaimer: this happened when I was mixing Starsan with Gold Coast tap water. Even in a sealed container it would go cloudy after a couple of days. I now use demineralised water which keeps for months once mixed.



What is a flavour of phosphate?

Phosphoric acid breaks down spontaneously? How?


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## bignath (20/12/12)

squirt in the turns said:


> Something to add to this, speaking from personal experience: I don't know what BacBan is composed of, but Starsan is mostly phosphoric acid. Don't do the above with Starsan.



ok, to clarify, when i say store until needed... i mean maybe a week (two at the most) as my turn over means a "stored" fermenter doesn't stay stored for too long!


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## mikec (20/12/12)

I believe Starsan solution becomes ineffective if left for long periods in tap water?
I think this is actually written on the bottle.
To make a solution that will keep longer, use distilled water.


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## QldKev (20/12/12)

mikec said:


> I believe Starsan solution becomes ineffective if left for long periods in tap water?
> I think this is actually written on the bottle.
> To make a solution that will keep longer, use distilled water.



I store some mixed in a spray bottle and use it for up to a month or so. I was always told if it doesn't go cloudy it's still active. Never had an issue this way. Don't know if it makes a difference mine is stored in the fermenting fridge. 

I have given some mix to mate in a coke bottle he cleaned. It went cloudy within 24hours.

QldKev


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## jyo (20/12/12)

If I use tap water it can cloud up in a day or two. Distilled water lasts for weeks.


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## NewtownClown (20/12/12)

When I mix it with tap water it is instantly cloudy. however, pH tests show it to still be effective for weeks after...


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## Nick JD (20/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> What is a flavour of phosphate?



Tastes like when a seagull shits in your mouth.


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## NewtownClown (20/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> Tastes like when a seagull shits in your mouth.



:lol: 

That's a benchmark _I_ am glad not to have..


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## Nick JD (20/12/12)

NewtownClown said:


> :lol:
> 
> That's a benchmark _I_ am glad not to have..



Lorikeet is actually quite tasty. Especially if the Grevilleas are in flower.


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## jyo (20/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> Lorikeet is actually quite tasty. Especially if the Grevilleas are in flower.



:icon_offtopic: 

That reminds me- last Summer we were down in Freo on the boardwalk with the kids when a seagull shat all over my head, face (getting behind my sunnies) and some went in my mouth. I tasted it. 

It didn't taste taste like chips.


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## squirt in the turns (20/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> What is a flavour of phosphate?



Obviously (or possibly not) I was using the word "flavour" idiomatically. E.g., quarks come in different flavours, but I don't think anyone's ever tasted one. Perhaps I'd have avoided your wrath by using the word "type".



DrSmurto said:


> Phosphoric acid breaks down spontaneously? How?



Again, perhaps I should have used a word like "dissociates". Also, I didn't mention any "spontaneous" decomposition. I imagine it has something to do with reactions with the various compounds found in wort/beer/tap water. I'd be happy to be corrected/enlightened by our resident chemist. In fact, my feeling is that that would be more beneficial for all, rather than posting snarky rhetorical questions.


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## Lecterfan (20/12/12)

NewtownClown said:


> however, pH tests show it to still be effective for MONTHS after...



I've edited the above quote to accurately reflect my experience with starsan and ph strips over the last 18 months. Just need a strainer to pull out bits of bottle label or whatever that might have fallen into the bucket (if you use it that way).

This is but one of the many reasons starsan is awesome.

edit: pretty sure it was from the podcast that Truman linked to, but the cloudiness does nothing to indicate a change in the efficacy of the solution.


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## Florian (20/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> Then i refill with hot water and a lid's worth of unscented Napisan (or alternative). Fill it until it foams and as soon as the liquid under the foam overflows the fermenter, i turn off the tap. If i have any other items that need it, they get thrown in the fermenter too.
> Leave this usually overnight (not because i need to, just 'cause there's no rush at this point).
> Drain, and another quick hot rinse to get rid of Napisan residue. The water will "bead" down the walls of the fermenter by now and it looks all squeaky clean.
> If i'm gonna refill it straight away, i do so in a clean, draft free environment in the house.



Without wanting to get involved in that personal thing that you guys have I really can't see the huge difference between your and Carnie's process here. You clean your gear and rinse with water, he cleans his gear and rinses with water. Both of you don't use a no rinse sanitiser (I realise you often do, but you also say that you sometimes don't as stated above).
Yes, he cleans his plastic bits in his bath but he also tips his cleaning solution into that bath, really not that much different from tipping it into a fermenter like you do or any old bucket that's been sitting in the garage for jonks like many others do.

Nothing fundamentally wrong with both of your processes, I'm sure that many agree that it's better to also use a no rinse sanitiser but you're both taking a calculated risk (maybe Carnie's is slightly higher) and as long as you both are aware of that then that's fine. 

As for noobs, there is so much info in this thread and many others that they can take an educated guess and use their common sense to decide what process is best for them. They're adults, after all. 

I know it's pretty entertaining for us but for a noob it must be more annoying to wade through all that personal bitchfight stuff in this thread when looking for quick and clear info than reading Carnie's supposedly wrong info in the context of many supposedly right posts.

Anyway, as I said I don't want to get involved just thought I point out the obvious.


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## Damien13 (20/12/12)

naah get into it Florian! I was hoping for one of those awesome mid fight comments that gets stuff boiling again...kind of like where the momma jokes were heading....

Pretty tragic, but this awesome homebrew bitchfight was one of the highlights of my day..

I need a new job.... clearly...
heheh

Having said all this, I agree with you Florian... you are a very diplomatic young man.... 

kudos...


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## drsmurto (20/12/12)

squirt in the turns said:


> Obviously (or possibly not) I was using the word "flavour" idiomatically. E.g., quarks come in different flavours, but I don't think anyone's ever tasted one. Perhaps I'd have avoided your wrath by using the word "type".
> 
> 
> 
> Again, perhaps I should have used a word like "dissociates". Also, I didn't mention any "spontaneous" decomposition. I imagine it has something to do with reactions with the various compounds found in wort/beer/tap water. I'd be happy to be corrected/enlightened by our resident chemist. In fact, my feeling is that that would be more beneficial for all, rather than posting snarky rhetorical questions.



I find people retain knowledge more when they learn it by themselves rather than being given the answers.

However, 'tis the season for giving so I'll offer a few insights.

Cloudiness does not automatically indicate the phosphoric acid is breaking down. Starsan contains a number of ingredients. Is the pH increasing (assuming you measured it)? 

I use starsan and make up 10L batches and store it in a cube, the lid is on to stop things falling in but it is not sealed. I use it for sanitising kegs, fermenters, cubes and plate chiller. I recycle it so over time it does get a buildup of 'floaties' so i strain out. The pH doesn't change significantly over the months i keep it for. 

I also have concentrated phosphoric acid (80+% from memory) that is used in the same manner at diluted to the same concentration as you get when using starsan. This also retains the same pH over a few months. 

Starsan, like any acid based sanitiser works in a very simple way - it reduces the pH to a level where 99% (or whatever % the manufacturer claims) of bacteria etc are killed. If the pH of your solution isn't increasing then it is still effective. Simple science. A surfactant (dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid) is added to make it cling to surfaces.

Cloudiness is more likely due to either a chemical reaction between the plastic you are storing the starsan in (not all plastic is acid resistant) or if you are using a container that was used to store something else (eg. another chemical) then you may be seeing a reaction between 1 or more of the chemicals in starsan and any residue left behind despite how thorough you have think you were cleaning it. Or something as simple as the various minerals in tap water or chlorine/chloramine reacting with the starsan.

Enough of the niceties, I'm going back to snarky rhetorical questions.

Happy Festivus. :icon_cheers:


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## sponge (20/12/12)

Serenity now.


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

sponge said:


> Serenity now.


 :icon_offtopic: 
"The Airing of Grievances, perhaps the most confusing of all Festivus traditions, takes place immediately after Festivus dinner has been served (but prior to the Festivus dessert). it consists of heedlessly lashing out at loved ones regarding the various ways they have angered or disappointed you in the year since the last Festivus."

So I guess that's done. Now all I have to do is wrestle someone during the Feats of Strength. Any takers?


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## mosto (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> Go buy yourself a box set of Mythbusters for xmas, and make sure it includes the episode that shows the toilet seat harbours less germs than the kitchen sink....then freak out about me cleaning my gear in a pristine bath.



Well that's it, no more laundry tub for me, I'm going to jam a sieve in the bowl of the crapper, chuck in some Napisan and all my bits and pieces, and give it a couple of flushes :lol:


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## sp0rk (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> Now all I have to do is wrestle someone during the Feats of Strength. Any takers?


Come at me bro


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

Florian said:


> Nothing fundamentally wrong with both of your processes, I'm sure that many agree that it's better to also use a no rinse sanitiser but you're both taking a calculated risk (maybe Carnie's is slightly higher) and as long as you both are aware of that then that's fine.


I agree that my routine could be tightened up by using a no rinse sanitiser in my FV and on my gear as a final step, rather than rinsing with water as I do now. Once I get my hands on some Starsan I'll start doing that. I got so involved in spec grain discussion with Chris at G&G last week that I completely forgot to grab it while I was there.

That being said, it's not so long ago I was making kit beer with 20 odd litres of unboiled water straight from the tap (IN MY BATH), and never had any infections there. And i'm still making full extract brews with only a partial boil, then topping up with tap water. I understood the risks even before my first home brew, 'coz I did my research first.


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## pk.sax (20/12/12)

I really dislike the abuse of the word '****'. Jumbling the letters is very disconcerting. I have all sorts of doubts about you now. You, you know who you are, need to stop being a 'cnut'.

Discuss...


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## Online Brewing Supplies (20/12/12)

Uum I have seen videos on "****" abuse and I must say I quite enjoyed them, each to there own.
Nev


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## jaypes (20/12/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Uum I have seen videos on "****" abuse and I must say I quite enjoyed them, each to there own.
> Nev


Haha

That's a **** act


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## QldKev (20/12/12)

So back to the topic

Can I just throw my fermenter in the shower with fat ladies showering, or does that risk yeast infections?


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

I didn't wanna get banned. And I was at work.  

Mind you I have no idea what gets you banned from this place, it seems language isn't an issue?


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

QldKev said:


> So back to the topic
> 
> Can I just throw my fermenter in the shower with fat ladies showering, or does that risk yeast infections?


Surely an appropriate image should have accompanied that comment?

Something like....


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## robbiep (20/12/12)

haha, thanks for the advice guys. My local home brew shop doesnt have starsan, might have to try the next best thing.


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## pk.sax (20/12/12)

Go to the pharmacy and buy a bottle of hydrogen peroxide. Search up the dilution rate on here/online but basically, prepare fresh and spray/swirl in whatever needs it just prior to use. Absolutely no-rinse and non toxic and the pharmacy will have it.


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## dammag (20/12/12)

robbiep said:


> haha, thanks for the advice guys. My local home brew shop doesnt have starsan, might have to try the next best thing.



At least one of the site sponsers has Starsan available mail order, good value yeast etc if your LHBS is a bit "behind the times". Doesn't cost much in postage and you'll be using what I would say the majority have a good run with.

Damian.


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## Nick JD (20/12/12)

My laundry sink is completely infected with US05.


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## QldKev (20/12/12)

dammag said:


> At least one of the site sponsers has Starsan available mail order, good value yeast etc if your LHBS is a bit "behind the times". Doesn't cost much in postage and you'll be using what I would say the majority have a good run with.
> 
> Damian.



I recommend getting a bottle of starsan. I used bleach as a sanatiser, then the bleach/vinegar sanatiser mix for years. A bottle of starsan will last years (unless you spill it all) and makes life a lot easier. A $14 post bag will get a bottle and a lot of other goodies in it. 

QldKev


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## Florian (20/12/12)

I should get myself one of those post bags. Seems good value with a bottle of Starsan and lots of other goodies in it for $14 :lol:


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## QldKev (20/12/12)

Florian said:


> I should get myself one of those post bags. Seems good value with a bottle of Starsan and lots of other goodies in it for $14 :lol:









QldKev


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## Yob (20/12/12)

Damn this has had some legs today.. was only a small question last time I looked.. at the risk of enraging anybody.. 



carniebrew said:


> I got a bag of "Stericlean" with my starter kit from Aussie Brew Makers. It's a cleaner and sanitiser all in one



Who the hell told you that?

Its my understanding, and I get this understanding from Mr Charlie Tallie (sp?) and Dr Bamforth (courtesy of TBN) that a cleaner and sanitiser 'all in one' does not in fact exist. Ive been very happy, *ed in my brewery and with my time*, to separate those processes.

Striclean is a caustic cleaner, active ingredient Sodium Hydroxide AKA drain cleaner and paint stripper :blink: 

also from back in 2007 on this productHERE

glad you were at least rinsing.. sounds like some nasty shit.

Peace Yo


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

Yob said:


> Damn this has had some legs today.. was only a small question last time I looked.. at the risk of enraging anybody..
> 
> Who the hell told you that?
> 
> ...


I'm sure this discussion has happened on here before. This version of stericlean is basically soap and chlorine according to the Aussie Brew Maker guys. Not the caustic/sodium hydroxide cleaner. Here's the link: http://www.aussiebrewmakers.com.au/retail_...ogue/54600_item.

From that link: "Stericlean is suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment.". I was using it as per their instructions when I first started brewing, no gloves, getting it all over my hands, so it's obviously not dangerous. 

Seems nobody else has ever heard of it, and nobody knows much about it, hence why i'm moving to sodium perc and starsan once i'm through it.

EDIT: Just found the other thread, when asked, aussie brew makers said "Stericlean does not contain any sodium, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"

And more from that thread, it contains Trisodium phosphate & Sodium dichloroisocyanurate.

Trisodium phosphate - is a cleaning agent, food additive, stain remover and degreaser....was at one time extensively used in formulations for a wide variety of consumer grade soaps and detergents, but ecological problems have largely ended that practice, at least in the western world. Substitutes are not as effective, but the raw chemical can be bought in bulk to add to other detergents

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate - is a chemical compound used as a disinfectant, biocide, industrial deodorant and detergent. It is found in some newer water purification tablets/filters. It is more efficient than formerly used halazone water disinfectant. Mechanism of action is the release of chlorine in low concentrations by constant rate


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## thedragon (20/12/12)

At the risk of weighing into something personal....

I'll take my advice from Big Nath any day over the advice offered by a smart arse with a sharp tounge. 

I'm glad that in my formative brewing years I wasn't offered the bad advice that seems to be freely handed out these days.


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## GuyQLD (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> EDIT: Just found the other thread, when asked, aussie brew makers said "Stericlean does not contain any *sodium*, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"
> 
> And more from that thread, it contains Trisodium phosphate & Sodium dichloroisocyanurate.
> 
> ...



For what it's worth Stericlean seems to be linked to a number of different products. 

This MSDS for example.

http://www.surekleen.co.uk/pdfs/7541s_Sure...750_ml_MSDS.pdf

However the active ingredient in almost all iterations I found was Chlorine in low quantities. You might as well use an appropriately diluted chlorine bleach which in the appropriate dilution is considered a no rinse sanitiser (yes, even in commercial food preparation it's considered perfectly safe if prepared correctly) 

Technically the only "all in one" that I know of is bleach. And most people will tell you how that goes. 

Use the Stericlean on your toilet and go buy some Starsan.


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## altstart (20/12/12)

Washing or cleaning and then sanitising are by definition two separate actions. From a personal point of view I would never incorparate the two into one. I use PBW as a cleaner followed by a thorough rinse with clean water and then Starsan as a no rinse sanitiser. This regime is used on all equipment without exception at every step of the AG process. All equipment taps and valves are stripped and cleaned every brew. Even with this level of care I still managed to lose a 100 litre brew in August this year to an infection.
Cheers Altstart


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## manticle (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> EDIT: Just found the other thread, when asked, aussie brew makers said "Stericlean does not contain any sodium, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"



That's a bit of a worry when their website suggests that the active ingredient is sodium hydroxide. http://www.aussiebrewer.com.au/index.php?p...rt&Itemid=3

However, apart from that, it is marketted as a cleaner AND sanitiser so maybe some users could back off sticking the boot into carnie.

Misinformation on this forum is not a good thing but neither is mob mentality or being an arsehole to noobs.


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## KingKong (20/12/12)

:icon_offtopic: I don't want to derail this thread... :blink: :blink: :blink: 

I have seen a few refer to 'using bleach properly' as a no rinse sanitiser. This is also contained in Palmer where a ratio of 4 ml of unscented bleach to 1 litre of water is suggested as an acceptable no rinse sanitiser with the condition the equipment is left to dry completely after contact with the solution.

Does anyone have an opinion on this ? Is there a brewer who can stick there hand up and say, yes I do this and have for a long time and have never had a problem ? Or conversely can say no I don't because this happened to me ???

I'm interested because for me, bleach is the most accessible, cheapest option. If the Starsan isn't far superior for a defined and explainable reason, I think Ill use the bleach.


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## Yob (20/12/12)

If memory serves, a, bleach and vinegar solution mix will work, known to work, also known to possibly kill you if you mix it incorrectly, dunno about bleach by itself, thought it needed rinsing

Happy to be corrected


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## carniebrew (20/12/12)

manticle said:


> That's a bit of a worry when their website suggests that the active ingredient is sodium hydroxide. http://www.aussiebrewer.com.au/index.php?p...rt&Itemid=3
> 
> However, apart from that, it is marketted as a cleaner AND sanitiser so maybe some users could back off sticking the boot into carnie.
> 
> Misinformation on this forum is not a good thing but neither is mob mentality or being an arsehole to noobs.


Yeah that must be different stuff, my powder came from Aussie Brew Makers, not Aussie Brewer. And I got the stuff, along with instructions from those guys on how to use it, before I even knew this forum existed. You know, back when I thought Napisan was for nappies.

Can't blame a bloke for being given a product called "*Steri*clean" with instructions that say "Stericlean is suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment." and not thinking it should do exactly that. You'd reckon if they're lying they would have been found out long ago. But perhaps I'm being naive.

As I said in my original reply 4 pages ago, I am planning on moving to sodium perc and starsan, as its obviously considered 'best in class' by the vast majority. But it's worth noting that Stericlean has worked for me so far, even if there was an element of luck involved.

And thanks.


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## pk.sax (20/12/12)

Heaps of peeps use bleach. I know some that do. Never picked a problem in their beer.

I dislike bleach. Don't like the smell and touch of it. The dg handling aspect of it.

I kept some bleach handy anyway because like any other anti-pathogenic treatment when one stuff fails, try a new thing. In fact, I'd suggest changing sanitisers every so often. Keep cycling. Sanitising is about dropping the risk to statistical insignificance, not 0. Every now nd then the outliers collect and need to be treated as part of the sample. Something else gets pushed out of the treatment target group. Keep that changing every now and then.

I've had had plastics taint my beer but never an infection! Fwiw, I'm far from anal in my cleaning and sanitising. Never takes me more than a minute to sanitise a fermenter. Bottles should get more attention.

Beer brewing is not the only thing in the world that uses sanitising processes.


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## pk.sax (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> ...naive...
> 
> 
> > Absolutely


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## manticle (20/12/12)

carniebrew said:


> Can't blame a bloke for being given a product called "*Steri*clean" with instructions that say "Stericlean is suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment." and not thinking it should do exactly that.




And I don't. Also confusing when there is more than one product out there with the same name but supposedly different (vastly) formulae. Someone should sort that shit out.

And you're welcome.


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## bignath (20/12/12)

sorry for more off topic.



Florian said:


> Yes, he cleans his plastic bits in his bath but he also tips his cleaning solution into that bath, really not that much different from tipping it into a fermenter like you do or any old bucket that's been sitting in the garage for jonks like many others do.



I don't believe for one second Florian that you honestly don't think there's much of a difference between scattering brewing equipment into an empty bath which will be a germfest....and then adding your cleaning solution to pour over it, as opposed to cleaning out the fermenter which has previously been a sealed unit (to a point) and cleaning all your equipment in that much more controlled environment by soaking overnight in my cleaning solution.
I understand you're a highly experienced brewer so i have no issues holding my tongue here, as i respect your opinions, but this has me perplexed mate.

Given both our (cb's and mine) processes, i'll take the pepsi challenge with mine every day of the week.



> Nothing fundamentally wrong with both of your processes, I'm sure that many agree that it's better to also use a no rinse sanitiser but you're both taking a calculated risk (maybe Carnie's is slightly higher) and as long as you both are aware of that then that's fine.



As you correctly stated in your full unedited by me post, i do in fact use a sanitiser - but only if i'm not using the fermenter again immediately.
Other than that, i don't see much point. Good beer has come out of the fermenter (infection minimised based on taste, flavour, visuals etc..), give it a good clean - overnight soak. Couple of hot rinses and she's good to go. 
Of course, after several brews like this i will do a complete clean and sanitise process to restart the process again. I wouldn't just keep using a fermenter that has been cleaned but not sanitised indefinitely..
What's the difference from an infection based point of view from doing this compared to reusing an entire yeast cake by dumping a fresh wort right on top of a waiting 'cake?


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## Florian (21/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> sorry for more off topic.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe for one second Florian that you honestly don't think there's much of a difference between scattering brewing equipment into an empty bath which will be a germfest....and then adding your cleaning solution to pour over it, as opposed to cleaning out the fermenter which has previously been a sealed unit (to a point) and cleaning all your equipment in that much more controlled environment by soaking overnight in my cleaning solution.


You forgot that he also soaked his bits in his fermenter for 'at least an hour' before he put them into the bath, then tipped the cleaning solution over it. So the bits should be pretty clean from the start. I would trust anyone that would then put those clean bits into their bath that they would be fairly confident that their bath is fairly clean, maybe not as clean as a fermenter that has been soaked in napisan over night, but either cleaned after each bath or better cleaned right before the process, and certainly cleaner than the bucket from the garage that i'm sure many are using. I know I wouldn't have a problem doing this in our bath if it wasn't so uncomfortable kneeling on the floor, and in fact I have done similar in the laundry tub many times, although with starsan instead of cleaner and tap water.

Anyone who puts clean bits into a grimy dirty bath or laundry sink I would not hesitate calling a tool. 



Big Nath said:


> I understand you're a highly experienced brewer so i have no issues holding my tongue here, as i respect your opinions, but this has me perplexed mate.


Not more experienced than You I'd say, probably less considering you joined this forum years before I even thought about brewing beer. But thanks for the confidence nontheless. (now if I could only increase my freakin one star rating :lol: .Honestly though, had never noticed that star rating thingy until you pointed it out in this thread, and one star is better than zero, right? :unsure: )



Big Nath said:


> Given both our (cb's and mine) processes, i'll take the pepsi challenge with mine every day of the week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd say the difference is that you have now rinsed this fermenter with tap water (possibly from an old filthy hose) which can in theory introduce all sorts of bacteria (even without the filthy hose) . To that respect, in theory, dumping on the yeast cake might even be more sanitary provided no nasties have been harbouring in your last brew, but in practice I dont think there will be a huge difference either way. It has been said many times before, brewing gear that has been cleaned properly but not sanitised will be much more sanitary than stuff thats not been cleaned (or badly cleaned) but only sanitised.

For what it's worth, I'm in the process of changing heaps of processes in my brewery that I always held as gospel (not necessarily sanitation related, I won't skimp on that one more than I do now). If they work out then It'll save me time and effort in the future, if they go horribly wrong then it doesn't bother me either as I knew in the first place that I was taking certain risks by trying.


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## GuyQLD (21/12/12)

Yob said:


> If memory serves, a, bleach and vinegar solution mix will work, known to work, *also known to possibly kill you if you mix it incorrectly*, dunno about bleach by itself, thought it needed rinsing
> 
> Happy to be corrected



I was under the impression that if you mix bleach and vinegar you actually create chlorine gas.. which is a pretty big no no.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemica...And-Vinegar.htm <3 google and no sleep.

Edit: Just noticed the part I bolded. Spot on Yob


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## MaltyHops (21/12/12)

jyo said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> That reminds me- last Summer we were down in Freo on the boardwalk with the kids when a seagull shat all over my head, face (getting behind my sunnies) and some went in my mouth. I tasted it.
> 
> It didn't taste taste like chips.


.................... .... well? Enquiring minds are waiting :lol:


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## stux (21/12/12)

QldKev said:


> So back to the topic
> 
> Can I just throw my fermenter in the shower with fat ladies showering, or does that risk yeast infections?



Tried that once. Broke the soap dish. Real Cnut.


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## stux (21/12/12)

Another point, and something some people forget, one of the reasons people recommend pbw/sod perc and starsan is that once you get some stainless into your brewery (kegs, valves, kettles etc) you should stop using chlorine based cleaners/sanitizers. At least on the SS. IF you have to use something different on the SS you might as well use it on the plastics if you can, hence PBW etc

So I recommend what many brewers will eventually end up using straight out straight up


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