# When is the best time to adjust the pH of the mash



## Ckilner (14/9/13)

Got myself a nice new Hanna pH meter today so I can now measure everything!
My tap water has a pH of 7.4 and I have a bag of gypsum at the ready. When do I add it to reduce the pH to get it to 5.2? To the water before I add the grain? After I add the grain? etc. etc.


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## warra48 (14/9/13)

pH of your water is not the important issue.

The important issue is the pH of your mash, so the time to adjust the pH of your mash is as soon as you have mashed in.

I'd be interested to know how many brewers on here actually measure and adjust the pH of their mash. I'd venture to say there are many who have never done so, and that includes me.


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

As you can probably gather, I've never done it before either but I've watched videos of master brewers who say how important it is to hit 5.2


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## Yob (14/9/13)

warra48 said:


> pH of your water is not the important issue.
> 
> The important issue is the pH of your mash, so the time to adjust the pH of your mash is as soon as you have mashed in.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how many brewers on here actually measure and adjust the pH of their mash. I'd venture to say there are many who have never done so, and that includes me.


I do sometimes now waz, I did until I worked out what was needed for the house grist, I worked out that some acidulated malt I'm my pales / IPA's got me there.. Nowadays I check every so often.. A tsp of 5.2 if I can be arsed and some cal sulphate is normal water addition.

I wonder how many people make any adjustments to sparge water...

Ed: typo


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

I was going to try the Five Star Stabilser 5.2 as it looked like the magic answer to everything but then I read various articles on the Internet that said it was OK in certain circumstances where the water was quite close to the pH to start with. If it was too far out then adding more 5.2 affected the taste of the beer and had little effect on the pH. I read in Graham Wheeler's book that he recommends adding Gypsum to adjust the pH


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## Dunkelbrau (14/9/13)

I'd love to, but I read conflicting opinions on the strips vs very expensive meters. I would also like to get one of those 5 or 6 stage water setups that also includes reverse osmosis as I'm a bit concerned about boil off and concentration of fluoride, especially with the amount of beer I drink when I have a full keezer!


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## /// (14/9/13)

The pH of the water does not matter, it is the calcium and carbonate content that does. If you get a water report I can help intepret.

Basics are calcium binds with phosphorous in the malt to make phytic acid, which drops the pH. You will have residual calcium in your water, the levels affect how much you add in obviously. 

Calcium is also thermo protective of the malt enzymes, aids in trub formation and is a nutrient to the yeast, so there are other good reasons to use it. As is also obvious, the type of calcium compound used accentuates malt or hops.

I hate strips, a $10 ebay pH meter is better than those. Also, your water can and will change in composition over time (aka after rain or with no rain)

Scotty


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## Dunkelbrau (14/9/13)

/// said:


> The pH of the water does not matter, it is the calcium and carbonate content that does. If you get a water report I can help intepret.
> 
> Basics are calcium binds with phosphorous in the malt to make phytic acid, which drops the pH. You will have residual calcium in your water, the levels affect how much you add in obviously.
> 
> ...


Whatever sydney water delivers to my area.. I found this report on their website stating Penrith on the page to pick which report you want to see, is this the kind of thing we are after?

http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044726.pdf


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## mmmyummybeer (14/9/13)

It all depends on your water and type of beer, darker grains will lower pH as well. If your waters fairly soft then a carbon filters good to remove the chlorine, The problem with RO is it basically removes everything and you need minerals in the mash.

I find for a general start is to add Calcium Chloride as its good in all beers to increase the Calcium and adds to the malty flavours.
Gypsum to hoppier beers, to accentuate and smooth hop flavours.
Calcium Carbonate to darker beers as it will increase pH.
I also find a little acidulated malt good for lighter beers.

Water pH doesn't tell you much as it all depends on the mineral content in the water and hence buffering capacity.

I personally rather add my mineral salts to the water before I start.

Sorry but don't think mineral additions are as simple as adding some gypsum until the mash hits 5.2, especially when you brew a malty style beers. 

John Palmer is probable the best on this matter and recommend his how to brew book.


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## Dunkelbrau (14/9/13)

mmmyummybeer said:


> It all depends on your water and type of beer, darker grains will lower pH as well. If your waters fairly soft then a carbon filters good to remove the chlorine, The problem with RO is it basically removes everything and you need minerals in the mash.
> 
> I find for a general start is to add Calcium Chloride as its good in all beers to increase the Calcium and adds to the malty flavours.
> Gypsum to hoppier beers, to accentuate and smooth hop flavours.
> ...


The only reason i was looking at RO was the fluoride reduction overall, and they arent that expensive to install for regular drinking water needs either. If i could remove it from my beer it would be great, however, i'd rather remove it elsewhere if it would negatively effect the brewing.


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## mmmyummybeer (14/9/13)

Sorry now see what you mean, would be much better if they didn't put it in at all but guess that's a whole other argument.


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## treefiddy (14/9/13)

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!

Edit: on topic - You would need to drink over 5 litres every day and swallow your toothpaste to approach levels worth worrying about. I guess if you're drinking that much per day some other health issues may be more of a problem for you (such as loss of essence).


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## benno1973 (14/9/13)

I don't mess with the mash once the grain is added, but I do use salt additions in the HLT prior to mashing in, and I use a pH meter to check that I'm in the ballpark.


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

I have just done a quick test. My water pH was 7.4 and I read that boling it and then letting it cool would reduce its Ph. It's now 8.5 !


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## Dunkelbrau (14/9/13)

treefiddy said:


> I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!
> 
> Edit: on topic - You would need to drink over 5 litres every day and swallow your toothpaste to approach levels worth worrying about. I guess if you're drinking that much per day some other health issues may be more of a problem for you (such as loss of essence).


 that PDF I linked stated 1mg/litre

I could smash a couple of litres with dinner, that's 2.2mg.. Imagine how much on a bender (2.2 because of 10% concentration from boil off)!

Each to his own, I personally would rather not consume it in my beer if possible as its in water, toothpaste and god knows what else, we can't accurately monitor our absorbsion levels as calcium, magnesium and all sorts change it.


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

so. Do I adust the pH of the water and then test when the grain has been added and then re-adjust again at each brew until I get the pH near to 5.2?


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## Pickaxe (14/9/13)

Have a read of the threads in the Water category, we've been discussing this lately. You'll be doing more than just improving the mash by adjusting the pH, and can tinker with the flavour profile of your beer. I have recently started and its making a dramatic to the quality of my beer.

You actually want to hit 5.4 - 5.6 at mash in due to temperature adjustments (you are aiming for 5.2 at 20 degrees.).

I'd recommend EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet (Google it) or Brun's Water. Both pages have information about water profiles and mineral salt additions. EZ Water calc will help you find out how much you will need to add of Calcium, Sulphate etc... to get to the right mash pH.

Dont mean to insult you but did you make sure your gypsum is food grade? ie. from a brew shop or a health food store?


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

Yes, I've been following the threads but got a bit lost in the detail. The gypsum I have is from the brew shop so I hope it's ok.
I'll look a the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet and Brun's Water. I'm sure with a bit more study I'll catch up. Thanks


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## Pickaxe (14/9/13)

Ckilner said:


> I have just done a quick test. My water pH was 7.4 and I read that boling it and then letting it cool would reduce its Ph. It's now 8.5 !


Ignore this completely. Unless you are taking the pH of the mash you are just confusing yourself. Water pH has little to do with it, it is the mineral content of your water which will define what your mash pH will be.

Read these for a start:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/74575-water-a-dirty-secret/
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/73309-ph-mash-adjustments/

Manticle has written a great article on water too, and has other info. You could PM him, but it is linked in the threads above.

Good luck with it, you will improve your beer.


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## Pickaxe (14/9/13)

When I started:

Get your water profile.

Enter info into EZ Water Calc.
It will tell you or help you figure out what you need to add.
Have on hand - Gyspum, Calcium Chloride and maybe lactic acid (esp for hoppy pale beers)
Make additions as per spreadsheet to water.
IE. Get you levels of Calcium, Zinc, Magnesium and Sulphate to an appropriate level through additions. (I'm only focusing on calcium and sulphate right now in my brewing as they are deficient in my water profile. Zinc and magnesium are for yeast health FWIK, and my yeast are always healthy, so i ingnore that. Lactic acid is to drop pH if grains and salts wont do the job enough for you. Some use acidulated malt instead in the grist, which does the same job, pops some acid in.)

Mash in.
Check pH
If it matches EZ water Calc - WINNING like charlie sheen. (Mine did)
If it's off, allow for this "bias adjustment" next time you use the spreadsheet and add more or less.
Mash, take pH, drink beer, repeat, until you get it to where you want it.


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

Pickaxe said:


> When I started:
> 
> Get your water profile.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll go and try this and report back. Cheers.


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## manticle (14/9/13)

Some simple stuff

1. mash pH is important, water pH less so (been said but worth reiterating). However it is good to know what is in your water, especially if it is really anywhere near 8.5. There might be stuff that needs filtering or precipitating so water pH is not useless, just not what you are ultimately trying to manipulate to 5.4.

2. Mineral adjustments will only help to a point. If mash pH is too high, you may also need to look at acidification.

3. Mineral adjustments also need to take into account the existing mineral content as well as the type of beer being made.

4. Mash pH will depend on the grist composition as much as anything else.

To answer your question above though - For the first beer: hydrate and stir till all grain is mixed. Measure the pH. Adjust with some salts/acid and measure again in ten minutes or so. Measure again at the end of the mash. Measure the pre- and post boil wort.

This is only to give you an idea. Once you are reasonably au fait with your recipes and water, you can predict where it will fall and what to add to which beer and you can either just measure once (when the grain is mixed thoroughly) or again if you make any adjustments.

Probably wise to take more measurements every so often to check you are on the right path but no need for that many every time. That's just to get your head around how it all works.

Take a look at mineral content and its effects on beer flavour and yeast health. Have a look also at mash pH and its effect on yeast health and enzyme activity. They're two distinct but related issues and mineral content will affect mash pH a bit.


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## Ckilner (14/9/13)

thanks all. Great advice to keep me busy for the next few brews. Every brew is a new adventure!


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## /// (14/9/13)

Any reason for 5.2? I prefer 5.4-6 for my beers

5.2 encourages more ferment able wort and one that is more easy to extract sugars from. So great for light dry lagers.


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## pyrosx (14/9/13)

Read this...

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control


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## Pickaxe (14/9/13)

And I defer to manticle. Op, he helped with many questions I had when I entered into water chem, and I'm reaping the benefits. Drinking my first water adjusted ag brew now and I can say it's a a MASSIVE improvement. My earlier brews were muddy and confused. I can perceive a difference from tasting the fermented wort, the yeast activity has improved, and now my 4 week old in the bottle motueka ale is proving to bybe by far my finest. Is like wearing glasses you've needed for years improves your vision. Clarity. The way mouthfeel, bitterness.and carbonation work together now is worth the work alone, let alone increased efficiency, better aroma, better malt and hop flavor. The finish on my beer is 1000 times better.


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## Pickaxe (14/9/13)

It's not going to make a Shit brew better, but to say, to borrow manticle's analogy, that is like properly seasoned food is absolutely correct, and we all know the difference of any meal cooked well but lacking seasoning. I'm not only converted, I'm preaching like a born again. You'll never look back. Keep asking questions, keep trying, is another world of learning, but more than worth it. Not discussed enough in my view. 
Water is the biggest ingredient, best we pay it the proper attention.


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## Pickaxe (14/9/13)

/// said:


> Any reason for 5.2? I prefer 5.4-6 for my beers
> 
> 5.2 encourages more ferment able wort and one that is more easy to extract sugars from. So great for light dry lagers.


5.2 is the ph needed, but temp adjusted it becomes 5.4 from what I understand. Ie. 5.2 @ 20 degrees, roughly 5.4 - 5.6 at mash temps. But as you say , horses for courses, haven't delved that deep yet, I defer to those that know. Be happy to hear more on ph for style. Any info guys?


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

I've just been on the water suplier's website and found the analysis of my tap water. Which of these should I address?
I'll have a go a feeding it into the EZ Water Calc spreadsheet
*[SIZE=small]Parameter Units Average[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Ammonium mg/l NH4 <0.009[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Calcium mg/l Ca 138[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Chloride mg/l Cl 39.3[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Chlorine (free) mg/l 0.26[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Chlorine (total) mg/l 0.41[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Fluoride mg/l F 0.258[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Hardness: Total mg/l Ca  152.8[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Magnesium mg/l Mg 9.46[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Manganese µg/l Mn <1[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Nitrate mg/l NO3 0.855[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Nitrite mg/l NO2 <0.005[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Nitrite/Nitrate [/SIZE] [SIZE=8pt]0.017[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]pH (Hydrogen ion) pH value 7.64[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Phosphorus µg/l P/l 583[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Sodium mg/l Na 25.4[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=small]Sulphate mg/l SO4 140[/SIZE]*


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

Fed the numbers into the EZ Calculator and got an estimated mash pH of 5.87 for a 25l mash with no sparge. I've added 3g Epson Salt which brings the Magnesium into Palmer's recommended range. All the other values are already within range but my pH is still too high.
If I add 30g Gypsum then the pH goes down to 5.45 but the mash water profile ends up at 411mg/l which according to the calculator is out of range by 260mg/l. Does it matter it's out of range or is it more important to get the pH down?


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## brewtas (15/9/13)

Get your additions sorted so you're in the range for each one, depending on what you're trying to do. From your water report it doesn't look like you really need to add anything unless you're aiming to alter the chloride/sulfate balance. Definitely don't add 30g of gypsum unless you want to drink plasterboard. Once you've got your water additions sorted, you can then adjust the pH with acidulated malt or lactic acid to get it in the sweet spot.


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## doon (15/9/13)

Yep I find 100g of acid malt usually brings the ph into range


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

I thought about adding some Epsom salts to bring the magnesium up to 25mg/l
My aim is to brew a very light Citra hop beer. I like the idea if adding acid malt. Not sure where to buy lactic acid though - it's not available at my online brew shop.


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## brewtas (15/9/13)

It's either acidulated malt or lactic acid, not both. Have a search for the acidulated, it can also just go by acid malt or sauer malt/malz.

I wouldn't worry about the magnesium, you're right on the edge of 10ppm and the barley itself will contribute some so you're all set there.


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## manticle (15/9/13)

With the water: Knock out the chlorine and any temporary hardness (carbonate). Unfortunately that report does not suggest what 'hardness' refers to. Slightly permanent hard water is OK, temporary hardness is not so great and they are different (confusing I know).

You can filter your water using a reverse osmosis filter to get rid of chlorine and carbonate hardness. Activated carbon filter will remove chlorine. Boiling uncovered and allowing to sit should remove free chlorine and allow carbonate to precipitate out. If chloramines are added to the water, boiling will remove some, RO filter will remove all. Sodium metabisulphite/campden can also be used to knock out chlorine and chloramine (won't affect carbonate hardness).

Don't worry about adding any magnesium - malt will provide what you need. I wouldn't be adding any more sulphate either - under 150ppm unless you are really trying to push bitterness. (Again if you go down the RO filter route, you will essentially have a blank slate so you can start from scratch - in that case add calcium sulphate to get calcium and sulphate levels right).

I'd leave mineral additions alone completely unless you end up using an RO filter and removing what is there. Acidify the water/mash instead. Lactic, phosphoric, citric or other food grade acid or acidulated malt.

Pickaxe mentioned an article I wrote earlier. Here is the direct link to the attached file (need to download it from the link) - it focuses a bit on Melbourne water in some sections but you can extrapolate. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46120-ahb-articles-water-chemistry/?p=950414


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

I've read a lot about RO systems. Is this worth considering?


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## manticle (15/9/13)

With that water? Yes I would say so. I'm fortunate enough to have a very soft supply.


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

Yes, with the water I posted earlier. As you say, it gives a clean slate. Is it worth the investment though I wonder - not cheap as I recall.


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## manticle (15/9/13)

Best get advice from someone who has one. If you are struggling to make decent beer using the water you have and if you get a quality unit that lasts then I would consider it worthwhile.

Making substandard beer despite doing everything else right is depressing. How have your beers been so far without worrying about pH?


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

To be honest, I'm so new to AG brewing that I have no history. I've done a few brews now but none have been spectacular but I'm working from the ground up. I'm trying to cover all technical aspects so that if the brew fails there's only one point of failure - ME


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## slash22000 (15/9/13)

Man your water is crazy. 140 calcium and 140 sulfate? I think Satan might be pissing in your water supply.

If you can't afford a RO system you can always dilute your tap water with some distilled or mineral water from the shops to try and get it under control.


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## billygoat (15/9/13)

slash22000 said:


> Man your water is crazy. 140 calcium and 140 sulfate? I think Satan might be pissing in your water supply.


Slash, have a look at his location, he is in the UK.
Plenty of people in the UK get their water supply from aquafiers, thus plenty of hardness, calcium, etc.


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

What comes out of a RO system? At the moment using tap water I have the water company to analyse it so even if I don't like it much I at least have a good idea what's in it. If I put it through a RO system will I know what I have and therefore know what to add to make it good brew water?


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## Dunkelbrau (15/9/13)

The reverse osmosis membrane filters out between 90-99.99% of minerals, I guess it starts at 99.99 and goes down over time prior to changing the membrane.

It will from my recent reading (since I posted in this thread) remove most of the "impurities" however it means you start from a blank slate.. Like a blank canvas, you have to add your own colour. 

This can be good, if you have terrible brewing water, but it is not as necessary if you have decent water. I guess we are lucky in Australia, it can taste like the swimming pool sometimes in my area though haha


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

Do you reckon my water is bad enough? We've got a lot of micro breweries in the area and I can't imagine they'll be using an RO system. We'll all be getting the water from the same reservoir so maybe I just need to be clever with the adjustments rather than scrubbing it clean and starting from scratch?


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## BeerNess (15/9/13)

Ckilner said:


> Do you reckon my water is bad enough? We've got a lot of micro breweries in the area and I can't imagine they'll be using an RO system. We'll all be getting the water from the same reservoir so maybe I just need to be clever with the adjustments rather than scrubbing it clean and starting from scratch?


Why not drop in or email some of your local micros and ask what they do? What's good for goose and gander and so on  worst case they're insecure enough to not share their 'wisdom' , best case they're helpful and informative - maybe even open up a handy dialogue for future questions and stuff, maybe even some yeasts ;-)


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## manticle (15/9/13)

Undoubtedly any microbrewery worth its salt (ha salt) will be doing something.

Try the other methods of dropping out carbonates and chlorine and acidifying the mash first. If that doesn't work look at RO.

And yes - talk to the commercial brewers and see what they do and compare that with how you rate their beers.


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## Ckilner (15/9/13)

If I could brew a beer anywhere near as good as Oakham Ales I'd be a happy chappy.
I've ordered some Acid malt today so I'll make my first venture into adjusting water and pH later this week.

One other question: My water quality report says the water has hardness of 152.8 mg/l Ca. EZ Water calculator asks for Bicarbonate (HC03) or Alkalinity (CaCO3) and Beersmith wants HCO3
What is my 152.8 mg/l Ca ? Any one of those?


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## manticle (15/9/13)

Calcium hardness is permanent hardness which cannot be removed by boiling. It makes the water slightly acidic and is actually good for brewing if not stupidly high.

Bicarbonate hardness (expressed as alkalinity/CaCO3) is temporary hardness which can be removed by boiling and is generally undesirable.

If your hardness is calcium/permanent, that is probably OK depending on level. Slightly permanently hard water is good, stupidly high is not. Bicarbonate is the devil though.
To answer the question - no, neither of those.

Ask the water company for alkalinity expressed as CaCO3


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## mabrungard (16/9/13)

Calcium hardness is the hardness due to the concentration of calcium in the water. It can consist of both temporary and permanent hardness components. Calcium hardness (as CaCO3) is equal to the calcium concentration (mg/L) times 2.5. In the case of the 152.8 ppm hardness in message #48, that may indicate a calcium concentration of 61 ppm.

I've not really heard of bicarbonate hardness, but its usually termed temporary hardness. That is typically the concentrations of calcium and magnesium that are paired with carbonate ions (aka: carbonic acid, bicarbonate, and carbonate). Temporary hardness (as CaCO3) is often equal to the water alkalinity value (as CaCO3), but not always. If the water contains high sodium or potassium and low calcium and magnesium, then its possible that temporary hardness is not equal to alkalinity (its rare in potable waters).


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## Ckilner (16/9/13)

Just found the CaCO3 figure for my water. 382mg/l
Looks high to me.


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## Rocker1986 (16/9/13)

I've just been googling around trying to find a current Brisbane water report, so far with no luck. Is there anywhere on the web where these can be found? I put in some figures from one I found from 2009 or something in to that EZ water thingy and a basic grain bill I normally would use and it predicts the pH around 5.7. Is that really anything to worry about?


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## Dunkelbrau (16/9/13)

Rocker1986 said:


> I've just been googling around trying to find a current Brisbane water report, so far with no luck. Is there anywhere on the web where these can be found? I put in some figures from one I found from 2009 or something in to that EZ water thingy and a basic grain bill I normally would use and it predicts the pH around 5.7. Is that really anything to worry about?


After reading info posted by some members and also some other research, its about so much more than just the PH.. so much that i think i'm going to take it super slow and focus on getting my beers better with my processes first.

I think i should link this video of Palmer talking about water.. in particular, Reserve Alkalinity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJj__jEkFUE


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## manticle (16/9/13)

5.7 is at the very high end of the scale if measured at room temp and too high if measured at mash temp. Ez should hopefully be calculated at room temp.
IF you were making a dextrinous wort (higher mash temp, less fermentable wort) the alpha- enzymatic activity would be favoured but for most beers it's pushing it. Add to that inaccuracy of measuring equipment plus user error and you are giving yourself a very small window.


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## Ckilner (16/9/13)

If my CaCO3 is 382 as I believe it is then EZ calculator puts my mash Ph at 6.8. I've added 100g of acid malt but that still doesn't bring it low enough. I see from EZ that lactic acid can be added too but how much can I add without affecting the flavour of the beer. Is gypsum an option too?


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## manticle (16/9/13)

You want to look at dropping that bicarbonate out if you can. Just adjusting pH won't be enough. At the very most you might get away with a really dry low hopped stout.


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## Ckilner (17/9/13)

From your earlier posting manticle, I drop the bicarbonate out by boiling? So if I need a 25l mash then I boil the lot and then let it cool and carry on as normal and make other adjustments. Having boiled it, how will I know how much bicarbonate remains?


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## manticle (17/9/13)

My understanding is that a 10-15 min boil should remove 80-90 % of bicarbonate.
Try it with a saucepan full first and see if you can see visible precipitate.


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## Ckilner (17/9/13)

You're probably about right. My stainless steel pans need a good clean after boiling water. So if the CaCO3 is 382 then after 15 min boil I should be down to about 80 or less. I've been watching Palmers RA video that was in an earlier post where he talks about Residual Alkalinity. Where he says that RA = alkalinity - (Ca/3.5 + Mg/7) I assume Alkalinity is the CaCO3 value?


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## Rocker1986 (17/9/13)

manticle said:


> 5.7 is at the very high end of the scale if measured at room temp and too high if measured at mash temp. Ez should hopefully be calculated at room temp.
> IF you were making a dextrinous wort (higher mash temp, less fermentable wort) the alpha- enzymatic activity would be favoured but for most beers it's pushing it. Add to that inaccuracy of measuring equipment plus user error and you are giving yourself a very small window.


Thanks mate. Yeah it was calculating it at room temp on EZ. I'm more than satisfied with the beers I'm turning out so I guess it can't be too bad. The water may well have changed slightly since that old report, hence why I've been trying to find a new one, no real luck so far though.


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## manticle (17/9/13)

Ckilner said:


> You're probably about right. My stainless steel pans need a good clean after boiling water. So if the CaCO3 is 382 then after 15 min boil I should be down to about 80 or less. I've been watching Palmers RA video that was in an earlier post where he talks about Residual Alkalinity. Where he says that RA = alkalinity - (Ca/3.5 + Mg/7) I assume Alkalinity is the CaCO3 value?


Yes. Alkalinity is commonly expressed as CaCO3.


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## pk.sax (20/10/14)

///

I've been trying to figure out an oddity from my last brew that used some rolled oats. I did put them straight into the mash. The issue is that extraction was ingloriously low.

I've not been able to pin down exactly what I did wrong. But on an unrelated query, ended up reading on the effect of phytic acid binding with calcium in food (in the body) and am wondering if the kilo of rolled oats in 10 kilos of malted barley would have put enough phytic acid in there to cause a calcium deficiency in the mash?

Does someone know a decent scientific link/source to read up on calcium in mashing and unmalted pulses and how they affect starch conversion?


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## danestead (20/10/14)

practicalfool

do rolled oats require a specific cereal mash, or are they already converted and just require a steeping?


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## pk.sax (20/10/14)

Hiya Dane
Not sure, hence the questions. How to brew does say to cook them prior. I didn't... don't think I'll figure out that brew particularly, too much 'stuff' happened for good recordkeeping to happen. Just looking for a bit of information on how unmalted adjuncts work and why to do what is recommended by palmer etc.


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## anthonyUK (20/10/14)

Ckilner said:


> You're probably about right. My stainless steel pans need a good clean after boiling water. So if the CaCO3 is 382 then after 15 min boil I should be down to about 80 or less. I've been watching Palmers RA video that was in an earlier post where he talks about Residual Alkalinity. Where he says that RA = alkalinity - (Ca/3.5 + Mg/7) I assume Alkalinity is the CaCO3 value?


I'm in the same situation as you. Where are you located?
I'm in East Hants where the water comes from chalk aquifers and I seriously doubt that boiling will reduce the alkalinity by anywhere near what you mention.
The best option is to measure your alkalinity with a Salifert test kit which cost £10 and will do 100's of tests.
Your only real options if you want to brew light pilsners or IPAs is:

to use an acid (Sulfuric/Hydrochloric/Phosphoric/Lactic/CRS) but these will nearly always have a flavour impact.
Use a known good water source for some/all of your brewing water such as Tesco Ashbeck which is almost perfect and about £1/5l


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## danestead (20/10/14)

practicalfool said:


> Hiya Dane
> Not sure, hence the questions. How to brew does say to cook them prior. I didn't... don't think I'll figure out that brew particularly, too much 'stuff' happened for good recordkeeping to happen. Just looking for a bit of information on how unmalted adjuncts work and why to do what is recommended by palmer etc.


Yeah, whether it needs a mash would be the question I'd try find an answer to. I have not used rolled oats before however I was just wondering of the different things that may have affected your efficiency.


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## Black n Tan (20/10/14)

danestead said:


> practicalfool
> 
> do rolled oats require a specific cereal mash, or are they already converted and just require a steeping?


Rolled oats do not need a cereal mash as they have been gelatinised when heated and rolled. They should be mashed rather than steeped.


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