# Hazey Beer - Not Chill Haze



## Acasta (7/2/11)

Hey guys, a while back I had a hazey brew, nothing wrong with the flavor but it just never cleared up. It was a bit concerning and I've never found the real cause. I did some research, found something called starch haze and thought this could have been it, as its definitely still hazed when warm. I assumed that i made an incomplete conversion in the mash, my mash was aimed at around 66, but I not 100% i hit that, it may have been too low. Anyway, passing this off as an unlucky mistake, i started to watch temps more carefully and didn't have another problem until 7 brews later when it happened again.

So now that its happened twice i definitely want to find the cause of the problem. I use a BIAB system. My method of fermentation is 7-10 days primary ferment at ~18, then 1 week CC and sometimes gelatin. 
The two that it happened on are lighter styles. Not sure if this could have anything to do with it, however i have made pale ales that are totally clear.


The recipes of the two that turned out like this were:

OG 1.049, FG 1.013
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5Grain 66.2 % 
1.52 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 28.8 % 
0.26 kg Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) Grain 4.9 % 
20.00 gm Pacific Jade [12.50%] (60 min) Hops 28.8 IBU 
17.06 gm Pacific Hallertau [5.00%] (10 min) Hops 3.6 IBU 
10.45 gm Pacific Hallertau [5.00%] (0 min) Hops - 
41.82 gm Cascade [5.40%] (0 min) Hops - 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 

-AND-

OG 1.047, FG 1.008

3.89 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3Grain 68.6 % 
1.11 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 19.6 % 
0.33 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 5.9 % 
0.33 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EGrain 5.9 % 
20.77 gm B-Saaz [7.00%] (20 min) Hops 8.2 IBU 
20.77 gm Cascade [5.50%] (20 min) Hops 6.4 IBU 
10.38 gm B-Saaz [7.00%] (45 min) Hops 6.2 IBU 
10.38 gm Cascade [5.50%] (45 min) Hops 4.9 IBU 
31.15 gm B-Saaz [7.00%] (0 min) Hops - 
31.15 gm Cascade [5.50%] (0 min) Hops -

EDIT: When i say haze, i mean no light can pass through. Solid.


----------



## Bribie G (7/2/11)

Possibly a pH thing. I know Melbourne water is soft, could you maybe not have had enough Ca in the mash? Do you normally add salts?


----------



## Acasta (7/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Possibly a pH thing. I know Melbourne water is soft, could you maybe not have had enough Ca in the mash? Do you normally add salts?


I have tried adding some Gypsum [Calcium Sulphate], however I'm not too familiar with treating water. That was next on the 'to learn' list, but maybe its been bumped up.
The first batch with the haze was done without the Gypsum, and the second with. I added about a teaspoon to the mash water, however, i've noticed a mash efficiency drop (~10%) so i stopped using it.


----------



## WarmBeer (7/2/11)

Kind of like this one?





It's a BribieG fake lager, 85% pils, 5% carapils, 10% sugaz. Mashed at 65deg, fermented with US-05

Now, I can't recall if I added Gypsum or not. I usually do, just because of the low Ca in our water, but I might have been drinking at the time and, umm, forgot...

Anyway, it tastes great, just looks a lot different to the last batch using exactly the same recipe.

Might need to invest in some pH strips and iodine?


----------



## Acasta (7/2/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Kind of like this one?
> 
> It's a BribieG fake lager, 85% pils, 5% carapils, 10% sugaz. Mashed at 65deg, fermented with US-05
> 
> ...



Yeah looks a bit like that. Do you think its the starch haze or what? I've definitely made brews with and without gypsum and it doesn't seem to add up with the results.
I have some iodopher, would that work for an iodine test? Anyone know?


----------



## WarmBeer (7/2/11)

Acasta said:


> Yeah looks a bit like that. Do you think its the starch haze or what? I've definitely made brews with and without gypsum and it doesn't seem to add up with the results.
> I have some iodopher, would that work for an iodine test? Anyone know?


That's my current thinking, that it is starch haze. If anything, adding Gypsum, or CaCl to the mash, _should_ help the conversion process, and in small quantities, won't have much of an effect on taste.

Have a google for "Key Concepts in Water Treatment" by Tony Wheeler. It's a good, simple, backgrounder to treating Melbourne water, with a pragmatic approach to what chemicals to add, and in what quantities.

I don't think Iodophor will do it, but not 100% sure. As I mentioned, I want to get some myself, as I want to find the root cause.

The beer still tastes good though, burp!


----------



## [email protected] (7/2/11)

Hey
the first time i did Tonys LCBA clone, it was hazed like you are describing.
I use rainwater, after brewing it a second time, i have recently started using salts in my mash (Calcium chloride - 0.2g per L)
whilst adjusting my mashout / sparge water ph to 6 with Phosphoric acid.

Taste is now a lot clearer as well as appearance. Still slight chill haze straight out of the fridge but this clears up pretty quick.

Theres a good basic rundown on using salts here : http://www.brewerschoice.net.au/html/articles.html

sorry dont know how to do the LINK thing


----------



## Acasta (7/2/11)

Im definitely going to read into brewing salts ect, however, could it have been a temperature problem? What would the lowest possible mash temp for a complete conversion?
Also, could too gypsum much be a bad thing in the treatment? This could perhaps be a reason i lost efficiency.
Only reason im not dead set about the salts being the issue is that i got the same haze (assumed) when NOT using salts. I've also made clear beers using and not using the salts. As i said, these brews are 7 good beers apart.


----------



## matho (7/2/11)

Hey acasta about 6 months ago I had a terrible brewday, to cut a long story short I had to use shop bought water for the sparge because the water out of the tap was brown, I had a two hour mash because of it.
The resulting beer was hazy and it never cleared up, I couldn't work why, it was either the two hour mash or that the sparge water only contained 0.2 ppm of calcium. I have later leaned towards the low calcium than the two hour mash because people have done 2 hr mashes without any side effects .

Cheers matho

Edit: idophoure can be used for a conversion check but it's not as obvious as straight iodine


----------



## Acasta (7/2/11)

Beer4U said:


> Theres a good basic rundown on using salts here : http://www.brewerschoice.net.au/html/articles.html
> 
> sorry dont know how to do the LINK thing


Reading your link i came across this: "dark malts reduce pH significantly"

The fact that im having trouble with lighter mashes may mean my ph is too high with lighter brews. However, with the latest batch i added gypsum and it didn't help.
Perhaps not enough gypsum? Which begs the question, how much should i add to about 25L-30L pre-mash liquor.

Also, perhaps a protein rest could help?

Also just read this:



> calcium sulphate CaSO4.2H20 Composition by weight: 23.3% Ca2+ 55.8% SO42-
> 
> Stock solution: add 100g packet to water and top up to 2 litres, store in a milk or fruit juice bottle.
> 
> Add to brewing liquor at 1: 100 dilution (eg. 300ml in 30 litres, 500ml in 50 litres etc.) This will give 115 ppm Ca2+ and 280 ppm SO42-, a good level for pale ales and German pilsner. Consider doubling this rate for a Burton IPA.



Which could help? Not too sure.

Also, while these two effected ones are light color, i have made light color ones of similar malt bills that i havn't added salts too and had extremely clear beer...

EDIT: Im editing this last post with new thoughts/brainstorm on potential problems.


----------



## Acasta (7/2/11)

matho said:


> Hey acasta about 6 months ago I had a terrible brewday, to cut a long story short I had to use shop bought water for the sparge because the water out of the tap was brown, I had a two hour mash because of it.
> The resulting beer was hazy and it never cleared up, I couldn't work why, it was either the two hour mash or that the sparge water only contained 0.2 ppm of calcium. I have later leaned towards the low calcium than the two hour mash because people have done 2 hr mashes without any side effects .
> 
> Cheers matho
> ...


I did a 3 hour mash, not by choice, straight after this brew and its clear. It was an amber ale.
I might try an iodine test.

Im wondering if i can test the beer in its current state? Or does it have to be straight from the tun?


----------



## manticle (7/2/11)

How long since ferment was completed?

I've had brews with haze take a while to clear but given enough time they will. I can't imagine that missing 66 would give a load of unconverted starches unless you missed it by miles.

Tastes OK?

Could be yeast or a lot of hops. I've made plenty of hoppy beers that clear up so it's not a given but hop oils can assist with haziness.


----------



## Acasta (7/2/11)

manticle said:


> How long since ferment was completed?
> 
> I've had brews with haze take a while to clear but given enough time they will. I can't imagine that missing 66 would give a load of unconverted starches unless you missed it by miles.
> 
> ...



Fermentation was completed 08/12/10, so its been about two months. Taste is fine, nothing abnormal or unexpected. Yeast was two different ones, one was a started from white rabbit dark ale and the other was plain old US-05.
Being from Melbourne, im wondering about you experiences with salts and the water here ect. Ever had a hazy beer that wouldn't clear? Do you use salts?
Also, any idea on the lowest temp for a complete conversion?

It'd be good to hear from others using Melbourne water.

Thanks everyone for your replies so far.


----------



## manticle (8/2/11)

I use calcium chloride and calcium sulphate in my mash and boil. Small amounts, mainly for flavour enhancement and yeast health rather than adjusting pH - some pH measurements I've done suggest I'm on the right track.

However I made many beers without salts that were clear.

Haze for me has been associated with: Infection (cleared up after a year - the haze, not the infection), yeast not yet dropped (clears up) and once using rice. I precooked the rice and mashed it with base malt but think maybe a cereal mash next time will be the go. I think that was starch haze. 

Pretty sure you can mash as low as about 59 but I wouldn't go that low. I have mashed at 62/63 though, no dramas. You can also use a two step sacch rest if you're worried - mash low then ramp up (eg 63/68). If you're after a full bodied beer, spend longer in the high range (say 40-50 minutes) or a drier beer, longer in the low range.

Doesn't help much with your haze problem though.

Put some in a sealed, see through tube and leave upright in your fridge for three weeksto see if it clears. How sure are you it's not yeast or hop oils?


----------



## Acasta (8/2/11)

manticle said:


> How sure are you it's not yeast or hop oils?



Well im not really. Im wondering if its possible to do a iodine starch test now, even once the beer is fermented? That would answer if its a starch haze at all. It could be a hop oil or yeast problem, however i've never gone wrong with those two yeasts before. How would i be able to tell if its a hop oil issue?

For the yeast to have not dropped after 1 week CC and 2 months in bottles im not sure if its just a flocculation problem or not.


----------



## manticle (8/2/11)

Recipes look like a fair bit of late hops. Can't answer Qs on starch conversion or how to test for hop oils.


----------



## Mayor of Mildura (8/2/11)

Acasta said:


> Well im not really. Im wondering if its possible to do a iodine starch test now, even once the beer is fermented? That would answer if its a starch haze at all. It could be a hop oil or yeast problem, however i've never gone wrong with those two yeasts before. How would i be able to tell if its a hop oil issue?
> 
> For the yeast to have not dropped after 1 week CC and 2 months in bottles im not sure if its just a flocculation problem or not.



Interesting problem. I didn't think that you could test for starch post fermentation but apparently you can. 

quote:
_If the beer suffers from haze regardless of temperature, it is called "permanent haze." This condition can be caused by the presence of starch in the beer, nonflocculent yeast, or bacterial contamination. To test for the presence of starch you can drop some iodine into a sample of the beer. The iodine will turn black-blue in the presence of starch. _

... from here

So there you go. You learn something new every day!


----------



## Acasta (8/2/11)

After a quick googling, I've seen people talking about dry hopping causing some haze because of some powders. However, these two batches were not dry hopped. Im still looking for some stuff on hop oils.



mayor of mildura said:


> Interesting problem. I didn't think that you could test for starch post fermentation but apparently you can.


Thanks mate! I'll open one up tonight and try an iodine test, using iodopher, and see how it goes. If its a starch issue at least i know how to overcome it.

I figure its not an infection as it tastes fine, so its either a starch issue, or a weird non-floccing yeast problem. I didn't gelatine these batches i don't think.


----------



## Acasta (9/2/11)

I just noticed another brew of mine is hazy. Its an IPA of amber color.
Its quite hoppy, so as manticle suggested it could be hop oils or something? Any suggestions or remedies?

Recipe is here:

6.34 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5Grain 85.7 % 
0.70 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 9.5 % 
0.35 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 4.8 % 
30.00 gm Simcoe [13.00%] (60 min) Hops 32.7 IBU 
25.00 gm Simcoe [13.00%] (20 min) Hops 16.5 IBU 
25.00 gm Amarillo [8.90%] (10 min) Hops 6.8 IBU 
15.00 gm Galaxy [13.20%] (0 min) Hops - 
20.00 gm Galaxy [13.20%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -


----------



## manticle (9/2/11)

Could be the friction that creates lightning.


----------



## Acasta (9/2/11)

manticle said:


> Could be the friction that creates lightning.


... Sure. It concerns me and i was hoping to get some help.


----------



## manticle (9/2/11)

Acasta said:


> ... Sure. It concerns me and i was hoping to get some help.



Bad joke from another thread about hop related haze. Sorry mate.

I find my higher late and dry hopped beers will clear up with bulk cold conditioning . If bottled before clearing, try a few bottles in the fridge for 3 weeks.

Have you found most clear beers are not high hopped or alternatively - have you had high hopped beers with clarity?


----------



## [email protected] (9/2/11)

Funnily enough all this talk about hops and haze.
I hopped the hell out of my last APA and dry hopped for the first time too
turns out to be my most clearest beer yet..go figure


----------



## Acasta (9/2/11)

manticle said:


> Bad joke from another thread about hop related haze. Sorry mate.
> 
> I find my higher late and dry hopped beers will clear up with bulk cold conditioning . If bottled before clearing, try a few bottles in the fridge for 3 weeks.
> 
> Have you found most clear beers are not high hopped or alternatively - have you had high hopped beers with clarity?


All good, i guess im not in many of the latest thread atm.

I CCed for a week at 1, do you think this isn't enough? Im also considering some finnings. Atm, all i use is gelatin but perhaps there is a better option. I have had high hopped beers with clarity, i made a batch of argons LFPA and thats realy clear, also a batch of Smurto's Landlord with plenty of hops and other IPAs/APA. Ill put a few in the fridge and see how it goes.

Also, can i get a link to that thread you were talking about manticle?


----------



## felten (10/2/11)

It would be worth trying out polyclar and seeing if that has an affect, I've noticed my beers clearing up since I started using it, not brilliant but definitely see through.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob (10/2/11)

Acasta have a read of the attachment regarding water treatment, gives you a step by step uses guide and is really easy to follow. It was already recommended in this thread but appears to have been overlooked.

CI is the major salt you want to use in most beers 

View attachment key_20concepts_20in_20water_20treatment.pdf


----------



## Acasta (15/3/11)

UPDATE:
Now I'm completely confused...
I followed the guide on using salts with Melbourne water to the dot and the beer i just made is extremely cloudy. Its in the cooled stage, however, its alot more cloudy then when i've been at this stage in brewing. Also, i saw a 10% decrease in efficiency when using this salt in the way stated above. I've used it before and its lowered my eff, but this is the first time i used it in a solution and measured it properly, and for some reason i lost more eff then normally.

Im pretty concerned, because normally my brews aren't cloudy at this point. I guess ill see how it goes during fermentation, but considering its already cloudy im not really confident in this one.
Really disappointing end to a decent brew day.

I also added a mashout today.

The recipe is:

2.78 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3Grain 57.1 % 
1.86 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EGrain 38.1 % 
10.00 gm Galaxy [14.00%] (30 min) Hops 11.6 IBU 
15.00 gm Galaxy [14.00%] (15 min) Hops 11.3 IBU 
20.00 gm Galaxy [14.00%] (5 min) Hops 6.0 IBU 
20.00 gm Galaxy [14.00%] (0 min) Hops - 
20.00 gm Galaxy [14.00%] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops - 
0.23 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 4.8 %


----------



## BjornJ (15/3/11)

manticle said:


> Could be the friction that creates lightning.




are you thinking of:







?


----------



## unrealeous (15/3/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Might need to invest in some pH strips and iodine?


+1

I always incorporate a rest at 72C until the iodine test passes.


----------



## Acasta (15/3/11)

unrealeous said:


> +1
> 
> I always incorporate a rest at 72C until the iodine test passes.



Did a rest at 75ish, would this be ok?
yeah i guess ill go try that stuff... Is there any way i can really figure out my problem? Im pretty shattered about this whole thing. About %50 of my brews have come out cloudy and I still can't figure it out.


Could it have anything to do with the recipe?


----------



## unrealeous (15/3/11)

You can definitely figure out your problem - there is nothing about the receipe that looks like the cause. Its a process of elimination.

ph first - I recall Tony saying that he was brewing where his source water ph was high - and his brews were coming out so hazy it looked like they had milk in it. Get some strips and measure it.

Not sure about 75 for an amylase rest - probably ok but I believe 72 is optimum. Maybe one of the enzyme experts can help out here. But do your iodine test - and hold at rest temp until it passes.


----------



## Acasta (15/3/11)

unrealeous said:


> You can definitely figure out your problem - there is nothing about the receipe that looks like the cause. Its a process of elimination.
> 
> ph first - I recall Tony saying that he was brewing where his source water ph was high - and his brews were coming out so hazy it looked like they had milk in it. Get some strips and measure it.
> 
> Not sure about 75 for an amylase rest - probably ok but I believe 72 is optimum. Maybe one of the enzyme experts can help out here. But do your iodine test - and hold at rest temp until it passes.



Hmm ok. Ill give it a shot. Im assuming some kind of pool shop for the strips and iodine?
Yeah my beer is pretty much the same, like milk.
Im not really sure when the next batch is going to be but i might try talking to tony.

Will having the mash too hight cause cloudy beers for every attempt? Because i've made pale ales with no salts or anything that have come out crystal clear...

Just had a look at the topics tony was posting in and it seems he had chill haze under 4C.


----------



## Acasta (15/3/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Might need to invest in some pH strips and iodine?


Any idea where to get some from?


----------



## unrealeous (15/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Any idea where to get some from?


if you want to test your water before from the source - your probably want ph tests in the range of 6-8 - and I think you can get them in any chemist

or you can test your mash ph - and most good sponsors sell them - http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=761


----------



## Phoney (16/3/11)

Test strips are a PITA if you ask me. Get a digital ph meter off fleabay for 15 - 20 bucks and your laughing.

While you're there, get yourself a filter and be done with your cloudy beer problem too.


----------



## malt_shovel (16/3/11)

To eliminate water chemistry, have you considered using distilled / bottled water?

That way you know what your starting point is and you can either adjust your water with mineral additions or just go as is.

This may be a more expensive way to go, but you seem pretty stressed about this, and I totally sympathise, so it may be worth the next few brews, hammering out the same recipe with distilled / bottled water and see if you still get the occasional hazy beer.

It is a process of elimination with homebrewing as you can't measure all the variables that u want, so keep things as constant as possible and make small variations from brew to brew.

If it makes you feel any better I am trying to work out why I am getting acetalyhyde and plastic flavours in my latest brews and like your problem it can be numerous things, so it is a process of elimation that gives you confidence in understanding the root cause of flavour or haze problems.


----------



## [email protected] (16/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Any idea where to get some from?



As alreadly mentioned site HBS sell the test strips for use during the mash.

I started out with this to see what PH i was ending up with after mashing in - which over a couple of different brews gave me an idea about my water.
I now dont bother to use them as i treat all my brewing water prior to mashing.

I use a Liquid Hydroponic PH test kit , to test the water prior to brewing.
From my experience in using these kits in hydroponics they are far more accurate over time than the cheap digital PH meters.
If you can afford a quality digital PH meter go for it.

The above idea about using distilled water and adding your salts is a good one to.

But yeah from my experience the first few times using Pils and wheat together without adjusting PH, they were very hazey, yeah close to looking milky.

cheers


----------



## beerdrinkingbob (16/3/11)

Beer4U said:


> I use a Liquid Hydroponic PH test kit , to test the water prior to brewing.




Where did you buy that if you don't mind me asking, did a quick google search and got everything but :blink:


----------



## Acasta (16/3/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> Test strips are a PITA if you ask me. Get a digital ph meter off fleabay for 15 - 20 bucks and your laughing.
> 
> While you're there, get yourself a filter and be done with your cloudy beer problem too.


How quality is the PH meter? I've heard they are hard to get a good reading off, and that the temperature has to be right as well.
Im definitely thinking of getting a filter, but i'll most likely wait until i get a keg set up.



malt_shovel said:


> To eliminate water chemistry, have you considered using distilled / bottled water?


This definetly seems like something to consider, however i guess this would be a last resort. Seems like a pain in the ass and wallet to be buying ~30L of water ever brew day.



Beer4U said:


> I use a Liquid Hydroponic PH test kit , to test the water prior to brewing.
> 
> But yeah from my experience the first few times using Pils and wheat together without adjusting PH, they were very hazey, yeah close to looking milky.



How much are they roughly? I don't really wanna spend a fortune on testing equipment, i'd rather spend it on beer haha.

Why do you think that Wheat and Pils made it cloudy?



Another thing i've heard of people doing is a rest at around 50C then going up to mash temp. I could easily do this as my water temp is about that haha.


----------



## geoffd (16/3/11)

I have had this problem recently with an ESB
TF Marris Otter, Simpsons Med Crystal, Weyermann Vienna & a touch of acidulated malt.

I rarely (if at all) make beers that require late hopping.
I have not had haze in any other beer.

The possible items in this brew that I have not previously contended with:

Sulphate 310ppm
Late hopping (not severe 1g per L at flame out)
TF Marris Otter floor malted

other than that I'm completely bemused, I dont believe sulphate causes haziness so by process of elimination I'm going with the late hops (most likely cause IMO) or the malt (undermodified?). There was no flavour issue, it actually snuck into 4th place in Beerfest. Haziness is not clearing with age so far at 80 days since bottled.


----------



## [email protected] (16/3/11)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Where did you buy that if you don't mind me asking, did a quick google search and got everything but :blink:




Here you go guys, aprrox 800 tests in a bottle, $7.50, this by the way is the only brand i would recomend using in regards to these test kits.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PH-TEST-KIT-FLAIRFO...=item2ea61754d4

My water - rainwater - is quite soft, but it is alkaline 8+ PH, but it is easily lowered with very small amounts of acids.
So i make the assumption that i have some low to mid range levels of carbonates with no to very little of the actual minerals i need for brewing.

So when using Pils and wheat to make a light beer, there are no darker grains to help bring my mash PH down to the right 
level. Which means poor conversion of starches and at higher temps (mash out) this will draw out even more unwanted starches, resulting in hazey beer at any temp.

So i use Calc Chlor and Calc Sulph in my brewing water, i am still very much experimenting with different amounts, depending on the beer, i then pre adjust my PH with Phosphoric acid - depending on the grain bill.

A lot also depends on how much water i mash with as well. I was have probs doing full volume BIAB around 5 / K - but if i mashed thicker 2.7 then did a dunk sparge i could get away with a lot more - this was before i looked into adjusting my brewing water.


----------



## Acasta (16/3/11)

Father Jack said:


> Sulphate 310ppm
> Late hopping (not severe 1g per L at flame out)
> TF Marris Otter floor malted
> 
> other than that I'm completely bemused, I dont believe sulphate causes haziness so by process of elimination I'm going with the late hops (most likely cause IMO) or the malt (undermodified?). There was no flavour issue, it actually snuck into 4th place in Beerfest. Haziness is not clearing with age so far at 80 days since bottled.


Interesting. Im wondering whats going on with my conversion now. However, wherever i add calcium sulphate it lowers my efficiency. Did you find this this?
It COULD be hop haze, but this stuff is REALLY hazey. Almost non see through.



Beer4U said:


> My water - rainwater - is quite soft, but it is alkaline 8+ PH, but it is easily lowered with very small amounts of acids.
> So i make the assumption that i have some low to mid range levels of carbonates with no to very little of the actual minerals i need for brewing.
> 
> Which means poor conversion of starches and at higher temps (mash out) this will draw out even more unwanted starches, resulting in hazey beer at any temp.
> ...


So how would one calculate the change in PH caused by the malt they are using? Because it sounds like you need to adjust the water, then add the grist and it will be easier to achieve a good PH.
I have a tank ok rainwater, but i have no idea if it'd be any good for brewing with. I figure its pretty dirty.
So you use those two salts for a balence and the acid to adjust the PH?


Has anyone else noticed negative effect of calcium sulphate (gypsum) on their efficiency or brew?


----------



## [email protected] (16/3/11)

Palmer - Online " While there is not any surefire way to predict the exact pH, there are empirical methods and calculations that can put you in the ballpark, just like for hop IBU calculations. To estimate your base-malt-only mash pH, you will need the calcium, magnesium and alkalinity ion concentrations from your local water utility report. Unfortunately, you rarely want to brew a base-malt-only beer.

As i said before i started out seeing what my PH was after mashing in with the strips, i now have an educated guess (idea) about how different grain bills will end up when mashed with the water i use after adjusting my PH before hand and adding some salts. 
From what ive read a little too low of the ideal range (5.2 -5.4) is better than too high, thats when you get the unconverted starches causing starch haze.

I also refer to this for a basic gist on malts and PH

The third factor in determining mash pH is malt colour dark malts reduce pH significantly. This is due to acidic compounds, including melanoidins, formed at their higher kilning temperatures. The following figures from Noonan show that the darker the malt, the lower the mash pH :

Pale malt: pH 5.7 6.0
Vienna / Munich: pH 5.5 5.7
Crystal: pH 4.5 4.8
Chocolate: pH 4.3 4.5
Black: pH 4.0 4.2

Depending on their proportion in the grist, coloured malts may be sufficient to give proper mash acidity.

Whats your rainwater stored in? even if its a bit dirty it does not matter, just run it through a britta filter or even just a really fine tea strainer which is all i do these days to make sure there are no chunky bits going into my brew water, it all gets boiled anyway so no worries in that department.
Rain water is natures own distilled water, so its picks up lots of things real easy, Co2 from atmosphere, if its stored in a concrete tank it will leach the limstone from that, which can make the water a bit alkaline, i have plastic and concrete they all get mixed around so i figure this contributes to my high PH.

edit: oh yeah i have noticed not much change in my efficiency since i started using salts, just taste and clarity, if anything i get a couple % higher here and there.


----------



## Acasta (16/3/11)

So basicly its an educated guessing game? haha. What would you bring your PH down to prior to adding malts for a straw to pale coloured beer? It would make sense that the darker brews im making are working well from the malt info you've shown.
My tank water is in plastic. Only thing is its cold and will take longer to heat then hot tap water (around 55C)

What would happen if the PH was too low? Could that also cause low eff and haze? Im honestly really confused as to why the gypsum has lowered my eff by such a large number.


----------



## [email protected] (16/3/11)

From what i have read, if the PH of mash ends up a little low the activity of the enzymes that convert the starches are affected a lot less than if its on the higher side.

a mash pH in the range 5.2 - 5.4 (Hind, 1950). This range, first of all, is favourable to enzymatic activity..the enzymes activities do not decrease by much if the pH levels are more acid, but there is typically a sharp decrease if the pH becomes more basic (alkaline) :

Amylase Activity at 60oC 


PH Activity (%)

4.8 - 98
5.0 - 99
5.2 - 100
5.4 - 95
5.8 - 85
6.2 - 65 

I recently made a low - mid strength lager, Pils , 5% light munich, 1% caramunich
My starting PH for my brew water was inbetween 6.5 - 7 . 
I only used some calc chlor for salts, i am very happy with how this has turned out, even while it was fermenting it was clearer than some of my earlier beers after months of bottle conditioning.
I also mashed for 75min and boiled for 90


----------



## WitWonder (16/3/11)

Beer4U said:


> a mash pH in the range 5.2 - 5.4 (Hind, 1950). This range, first of all, is favourable to enzymatic activity..the enzymes activities do not decrease by much if the pH levels are more acid, but there is typically



Geez, if I quoted a reference from 1950 in a uni assignment I would have been laughed off campus 

I've also noticed a number of my beers hazy recently but have associated it with a change in equipment from a 40L batch to a 80L batch (new mash tun) though the wort always seems very clear during recirc. I am thinking it's a PH issue...


----------



## geoffd (17/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Interesting. Im wondering whats going on with my conversion now. However, wherever i add calcium sulphate it lowers my efficiency. Did you find this this?
> It COULD be hop haze, but this stuff is REALLY hazey. Almost non see through.



This is what I got, extremely hazy or cloudy. My yeast was Saf-04
brewhouse efficiency was excellent. however attenuation was fairly low, only 65.6% from a 67 degree mash, I would have expected low to mid 70's, though I have only used S-04 once before & that was one of my very early all grain beers about 4 years ago. Perhaps the TF Marris Otter was undermodified, I mashed for 90 mins so it aint for a lack of conversion time. would give a plausable theory into both lower attenuation & the haze.

Regarding Ph in Melbourne water, I generally add 120g Acidulated to a pale lager maybe 50g to an amber, that's in 5 to 5.5kg grist at 2.5L/kg water ratio, I have settled on these levels after testing a few batches with the Ph meter. I dont bother testing every batch & because the water is so soft, I dont care if it running 6.5 or 8 from the tap for the mash water.
I do add a few drops of lactic acid in the sparge water to get to Ph 6

Calium carbonate to a stout, brown: no Ph adjustment.

Is it possible Cal Sulphate is lowering your Ph too far? I would get a ph meter / papers & test.
I generally find if a beer is too acidified, it comes through as completly cutting the malt & making it taste thin, dry/sharp & lifeless. looses that yummy full roundness of flavour.

The only other thing that springs to mind is some kind of infection, though I couldnt taste anything abnormal. I'll drink one tonight & take a photo of it.


----------



## Nick JD (17/3/11)

Acasta said:


> ... then 1 week CC and sometimes gelatin.



Were your OP batches both gelatined? 

I recently had a situation where I added the gelatine _slightly _before FG. 

The beer never cleared. I'm not sure of the process or what's happening, but it never clears.


----------



## Acasta (17/3/11)

Beer4U said:


> From what i have read, if the PH of mash ends up a little low the activity of the enzymes that convert the starches are affected a lot less than if its on the higher side.






Father Jack said:


> Regarding Ph in Melbourne water, I generally add 120g Acidulated to a pale lager maybe 50g to an amber,
> 
> Is it possible Cal Sulphate is lowering your Ph too far? I would get a ph meter / papers & test.
> I generally find if a beer is too acidified, it comes through as completly cutting the malt & making it taste thin, dry/sharp & lifeless. looses that yummy full roundness of flavour.


It is definetly possible and has crossed my mind that its too low, however, Beer4U was saying that it may not be a terrible thing if its too low. I guess i really just need to do some sames with a test kit and get my shit together. Without actually looking at the PH levels, all the help you guys give me are just theories. I'll get some PH stuff (iodine and PH testing) and get back to this thread sometime soon.



Nick JD said:


> Were your OP batches both gelatined?


Thats also possible, but some times i gelatine and sometime not. Its really random as i forgot about it sometimes haha. I could be on occasion that i don't let it ferment fully.
But ill definitely wait till its fully fermented (3 days same reading) before i gel and see what happens.


----------



## Acasta (17/3/11)

maybe this weekend ill do a cascade - pils smash half batch on the old stove and see what happens.

Things i need?
Iodine
PH measurement
what kind of acids/salts should I use?

P.S. Just took a photo, this was brewed on 24/11/10, so its been in bottle over 3 months. This bottle in particular was in the fridge for about 2 weeks.
This is a particularly bad example. It looks the exact same when its warm.


----------



## MHB (17/3/11)

Looks like the most common causes of haze have been covered but lets tick them off: -
Chill haze Probably not
Starch Haze - again probably not
Bad water chemistry iffy, frankly thats about the worst case of turbidity Ive seen and I doubt it would be that bad if every one of the above was out to buggery.

So some of the other causes
Yeast Haze a badly mutated or contaminated (wild Yeast) house yeast might look that bad but I think the flavour would change to.
Infection its a possibility but you would expect other symptoms as well if an infection was that bad.
Protein Haze this one is a possible. You need to look at your boil vigour and duration, the quality of your trub separation (I dont mean hop debris the protein part of the trub).
To minimise protein haze
No longer than a 10 minute rest at or around 50oC
Longer mash time at saccharifying temperatures
Not too hot a sparge or mash out (under 78oC)
A good intensive boil evaporating at least 10% wort volume
A good whirlpool and trub separation - dont be greedy! Be prepared to leave enough wort in the kettle to avoid picking up trub.
Hope you find the answer 
MHB


----------



## Acasta (17/3/11)

MHB said:


> Starch Haze - again probably not
> Bad water chemistry – iffy, frankly that’s about the worst case of turbidity I’ve seen and I doubt it would be that bad if every one of the above was out to buggery.
> Could bad water chemistry cause the starch haze? ie. PH not corrert and an incomplete conversion.
> 
> ...



What about mashing out?

Thanks.


----------



## MHB (17/3/11)

It really sounds like you are doing most things right, Mash Out and Sparge were sort of clumped in together and if you have an accurate thermometer and arent taking the grain bed over 80oC that should be fine.
If the wort is bright (clear) at the end of the boil it* isnt *starch.

Rapidly heading into F-t if I know country, very hard to tell without actually being there. Can you get another experienced AG brewer along for a brew day fresh set of eyes and all that, they might spot something that youre missing. Maybe take a sample to your local club and get some considered opinion, try the guys at G&G they know their stuff.

Protein Haze still looks like the most likely cause.
Not being factious but how good is your thermometer, if its a mechanical or an electronic one is it well calibrated, if you havent got 1 good glass lab thermometer that you can trust that might be a good place to start.
All the best
MHB


----------



## Acasta (17/3/11)

MHB said:


> It really sounds like you are doing most things right, Mash Out and Sparge were sort of clumped in together and if you have an accurate thermometer and aren’t taking the grain bed over 80oC that should be fine.
> If the wort is bright (clear) at the end of the boil it* isn’t *starch.
> 
> Rapidly heading into “F-t if I know” country, very hard to tell without actually being there. Can you get another experienced AG brewer along for a brew day – fresh set of eyes and all that, they might spot something that you’re missing. Maybe take a sample to your local club and get some considered opinion, try the guys at G&G they know their stuff.
> ...


Well yeah, most of the time its clear upon draining from the kettle. So if its not starch haze, would that mean that all my PH issues are irrelevant in this problem? Not in brewing, just this issue.
I don't know any AGers personaly, i might have to bring it into a store.. dunno.
My thermometer is a digital and i got it from dicksmith. I have nothing to calibrate it against, i tbh, i don't know if its %100 accurate.

What are the main causes of protein haze?
You mentioned before some remadies are, protien rest, longer sacc rest, and a cooler sparge. As well as a good wort seperation (which im currently doing). Oh, and a longer boil maybe? I currently do 60min, ill change it to 90.
I understand a starch haze is caused by not all of the sugars being converted in


----------



## proudscum (17/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Well yeah, most of the time its clear upon draining from the kettle. So if its not starch haze, would that mean that all my PH issues are irrelevant in this problem? Not in brewing, just this issue.
> I don't know any AGers personaly, i might have to bring it into a store.. dunno.
> My thermometer is a digital and i got it from dicksmith. I have nothing to calibrate it against, i tbh, i don't know if its %100 accurate.
> 
> ...



You could try to calibrate it with 2 things putting it in to boiling water =100 oC
Putting ice into a glass(full of ice) with some water which will take you close to 0 oC


----------



## geoffd (18/3/11)

Well the haziness has improved a very small bit in the last few weeks, I'm still siding with undermodified malt as the culprit.


----------



## Acasta (18/3/11)

Father Jack said:


> Well the haziness has improved a very small bit in the last few weeks, I'm still siding with undermodified malt as the culprit.
> 
> View attachment 44739
> View attachment 44740


Thats not terrible, i've made a few like that and some crystal clear. I wouldn't even mind if my ambers and such were like that. it just kills me seeing the pales and straws so hazey.


----------



## geoffd (18/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Thats not terrible, i've made a few like that and some crystal clear. I wouldn't even mind if my ambers and such were like that. it just kills me seeing the pales and straws so hazey.



that is a pale ale, ESB of 9.5 SRM
I have a fairly slow run off with my lauter & normally get completely clear beer.
normally I can see my fingernail perfectly clearly through a beer, unless it's a stout.


----------



## Nick JD (18/3/11)

Do you do any sparging of your BIABag? And are your sparged runnings cloudy, if you do?


----------



## geoffd (18/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> Do you do any sparging of your BIABag? And are your sparged runnings cloudy, if you do?


nope, gravity system, false bottom. have never BedIAB

anyway's turning off the cpu, have a good weekend, over & out.


----------



## Acasta (18/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> Do you do any sparging of your BIABag? And are your sparged runnings cloudy, if you do?


I do, and the runnings looked the exact same. I might take a sample of my sparge and put it aside next to a mash sample.


----------



## MHB (23/3/11)

Father Jack said:


> Well the haziness has improved a very small bit in the last few weeks, I'm still siding with undermodified malt as the culprit.
> 
> View attachment 44739
> View attachment 44740



For malt to undermodified enough to cause the problems you are talking about, it would be showing a lot of "Steely Tips" the name comes from the feeling you get when you chew a sample, it's like chewing a mouthful of ball bearings.

Very noticeable, if you malt is undermodified just adjust your mash regime accordingly, in truth I have had 1 bag of malt out of god knows how many tons (a UK Xal) that showed steely tips, I strongly suspect that your looking in the wrong direction, if there was a delivery of undermodified MO getting around we would be hearing about it very loudly in all likelihood.

MHB


----------



## argon (23/3/11)

well... here's my entry into the hazy beer club. Filtered and kegged (with keg hops) Monday and first sample taken this morning.




Very turbid, could hardly call it a haze. Normally after filtering i get diamond bright beer. I really wouldn't be all that upset with the haze, other than this is supposed to be for the BABBs mini-comp, so rightfully a little pissed. My own fault though, been putting off getting some ph testing gear and looking for full conversion.

It's a pretty heavily hopped IPA (90IBU) and has 11%Carawheat and 11% Oats in the grain bill (which is where i think i got the haze from) Plus looking back at my notes, i forwent the Gypsum, which in (cloudy) hindsight was a bad idea.


----------



## Acasta (23/3/11)

argon said:


> well... here's my entry into the hazy beer club. Filtered and kegged (with keg hops) Monday and first sample taken this morning.
> View attachment 44858
> 
> 
> ...


Thats a bugger mate. Really sucks when you don't get the great beer you planned for.
Good luck with figuring it out, or at least never doing it again haha.


----------



## argon (23/3/11)

yeah it's really dissapointing when it came out like that... oh well with the appearance only being worth 3 points, 47 is a decent score i 'spose B)


----------



## malt_shovel (23/3/11)

MHB said:


> Looks like the most common causes of haze have been covered but let's tick them off: -
> Chill haze Probably not
> Starch Haze - again probably not
> Bad water chemistry iffy, frankly that's about the worst case of turbidity I've seen and I doubt it would be that bad if every one of the above was out to buggery.
> ...



MHB, can you elaborate a bit more on the protein haze situation?

I am just getting into the more chemistry/science parts of this hobby and was under the impression that chill haze is a form of colloidal instability that is formed from both proteins (malt origins) and polyphenols (either from hops or malt) combining/bonding into colloids that become visible. So from my basic lit study, chill and protein haze are one and the same. I figure once the bonds are sufficiently strong, an increase in temperature doesn't break the colloids apart, leaving a permanent haze. Can you give a bit more info on what you mean by protein haze as compared to chill haze?

Thanks in advance

:icon_chickcheers:


----------



## geoffd (23/3/11)

malt_shovel said:


> MHB, can you elaborate a bit more on the protein haze situation?
> 
> I am just getting into the more chemistry/science parts of this hobby and was under the impression that chill haze is a form of colloidal instability that is formed from both proteins (malt origins) and polyphenols (either from hops or malt) combining/bonding into colloids that become visible. So from my basic lit study, chill and protein haze are one and the same. I figure once the bonds are sufficiently strong, an increase in temperature doesn't break the colloids apart, leaving a permanent haze. Can you give a bit more info on what you mean by protein haze as compared to chill haze?
> 
> ...



Chill haze is proteins expanding in cold,
Protein haze, an example of this would be the haze from wheat beer, not chill related.
also caused by a bad grain bed or fast running on lauter where runnings arent clear.

By the way I forgot to say thank you to MHB for your diagnostic effort, I dont believe mine was any of the listed brewing faults you suggested & the yeast was a new dry yeast: S-04

It would have been 90min 67degrees + 77 mash out & a 90 min boil too.
Mine was almost as murky as Argon's early on.

Is protein haze a possibility from TF Marris Otter? this is what led to me thinking along the undermodified line. Without having a yardstick to compare it against it I did think the beer tastes slightly floury / starchy, but this might be a normal characteristic of the malt.


----------



## [email protected] (23/3/11)

Here is another for the Hazey club. 
Crisp MO and 5% crystal, mash 66C for 60min, mashout 76C, boil 60min
Wort was clear going into fermenter, all break was left in pot.
Wyeast 1968 - as soon as it got going it looked turbid - 12 days ferment
CC @ 1C for 3 days , still very turbid going into bottles.
4 weeks later this is what it looks like @ 11C
Tastes ok, aftertaste is enjoyable, i am pretty sure there is no infection.
maybe next time i need to do the 90 boil thing, who knows.


----------



## Acasta (24/3/11)

Having trouble finding iodine or PH stuff anywhere local. LHBS doesn't have them, nor does the chemist. Ill try a pool shop tomorrow.

Anyone tried to use iodopher to test for staches? I just did a quick good and an american site, some people posting that they have used it successfully.


----------



## geoffd (25/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Having trouble finding iodine or PH stuff anywhere local. LHBS doesn't have them, nor does the chemist. Ill try a pool shop tomorrow.
> 
> Anyone tried to use iodopher to test for staches? I just did a quick good and an american site, some people posting that they have used it successfully.



I have a bottle I dont use & you can keep, PM me


----------



## argon (20/6/11)

argon said:


> well... here's my entry into the hazy beer club. Filtered and kegged (with keg hops) Monday and first sample taken this morning.
> View attachment 44858
> 
> 
> ...



Same beer, second keg of double batch... a few months later in the kegertor at 3C. Hard to believe how much this has cleared in time... looks a totally different beer. Much happier now.


----------



## Acasta (20/6/11)

argon said:


> Same beer, second keg of double batch... a few months later in the kegertor at 3C. Hard to believe how much this has cleared in time... looks a totally different beer. Much happier now.



Nice one, I had a beer do something similar, but the first one I posted never recovered.


----------



## argon (20/6/11)

Acasta said:


> Nice one, I had a beer do something similar, but the first one I posted never recovered.


Yeah i'm pretty happy with it now... the flavour has really improved... not sure if it's the bitterness rounding out, or what. But it's much more palatable and smoother than before. I really must endevour to age more of my beers... i'm always pleased by a bit of aging.


----------



## [email protected] (20/6/11)

Beer4U said:


> Here is another for the Hazey club.
> Crisp MO and 5% crystal, mash 66C for 60min, mashout 76C, boil 60min
> Wort was clear going into fermenter, all break was left in pot.
> Wyeast 1968 - as soon as it got going it looked turbid - 12 days ferment
> ...




Well i may as well update mine as well.

Had this one tonight, been about 3 months now, in the fridge the whole time.
Much clearer, the taste has improved out of site, everything has smoothed out.

Pours with a much bigger head and holds it for most of the glass.
I know not all beers age well but this one certainly did.

Picture is not the best but good enough.


----------



## Dave70 (23/6/11)

Just curious if you guys are using any wheat malt as part of the grain bill? Even as little as 3% to help head retention.

I've had a Belgian strong sitting at 1 deg for just on 3 weeks and plan to bottle this weekend. I'm simply working off the theory that the only consistently clear beers I've knocked out have been lagers that have copped a similar treatment. Just for once, I'd like an ale to be all sparkly and bright.


----------



## a1149913 (1/7/11)

Protease rest 50 - 54C ?
Protein degradation via a proteolytic rest plays many roles: production of free-amino nitrogen (FAN) for yeast nutrition, freeing of small proteins from larger proteins for foam stability in the finished product, and reduction of haze-causing proteins for easier filtration and increased beer clarity. In all-malt beers, the malt already provides enough protein for good head retention, and the brewer needs to worry more about more FAN being produced than the yeast can metabolize, leading to off flavors. The haze causing proteins are also more prevalent in all-malt beers, and the brewer must strike a balance between breaking down these proteins, and limiting FAN production.


----------

