# Bread Porn



## Tim F (12/7/08)

From the sourdough thread it seems like there's a few bakers here! So lets see your best bread efforts 

Heres a couple of loaves of oat bran bread that I made today:



Tastes fantastic, I used a hint of leatherwood honey. Sandwiches for lunch this week!


This one is a big sourdough miche that just came out of the oven as well. Looking forward to cracking it open.



Happy to share recipes if anyone is interested.


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## sinkas (13/7/08)

Used any Spelt in baking?

Loaves look good some woodside goat's cheese on the bread perhaps?


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## Kai (14/7/08)

sinkas said:


> Loaves look good some woodside goat's cheese on the bread perhaps?




mmmmm


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## Wardhog (14/7/08)

Haven't got pictures, but today's lunch is ham, cheese & Salad Cream (!) on homemade coriander and linseed wholemeal bread baked yesterday.

I was hoping I'd find some other people making bread on here. I found a recipe on the net a few weeks ago, had a bash, and have been very happy with the results.


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## Tim F (14/7/08)

sinkas said:


> Used any Spelt in baking?
> 
> Loaves look good some woodside goat's cheese on the bread perhaps?



Haven't tried spelt yet - isn't that fairly low in gluten?

Fantastic idea with the woodside cheese.. they are just around the corner. The one that they wrap in vine leaves and burn them off is sublime.

I made a batch of oatmeal stout yesterday and the grains smelled so nice that I chucked some in a loaf of bread  It came out tasting great although if I had more time I would have let the dough ferment for longer. Heres the recipe - this was enough to make 3 decent loaves, so scale it down a bit if need be. I more or less followed the spent grain bread recipe from Peter Reinharts whole grain bread book.

650g flour
11g salt
10g yeast
435ml water
60g honey
20g olive oil
180g spent grain from stout
4 tsp gluten flour (I like to use this in bread with lots of grain but it's optional, your bread might not hold a free standing shape as well though)

I just kneaded everything together, let it rise, punched it down, rose again, shaped into loaves, rose again and baked.
If I had longer, I'd mix everything except the yeast, let it all sit overnight, then knead in the yeast and take it from there.

Not the best pic as we already ate most of it


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## Doc (15/7/08)

Here are todays loaves of Imperial Vanilla Bourbon Porter sourdough.

Basically the last feeding of the starter I added 1 cup of Imperial Vanilla Bourbon Porter with the flour and let it go for about 12 hours.

Then the recipe was:

1 cup starter
1 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar
1 tblspn Olive Oil
about 2 cups flour
All mixed up, and left over night to rise. Flattened this morning and shaped and let to rise again. Baked around 7pm tonight.

Oh and the different shapes ? The longer one I added a shake or two of cinnamon when mixing it all up. I made it a different shape so I knew what was what.

Doc


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## Doc (20/7/08)

Straight out of the oven.
My sourdough loaf made with 250+IBU 7.5% Triple IPA beer.

Almost smells hoppy :beerbang:

Doc


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## Tim F (24/7/08)

I came up with this spreadsheet to scale up or down recipes where you know the bakers percentages required. You enter the final weight of dough required and the percentage of each ingredient, and it tells you what weight of each ingredient to use. Give it a go if you often scale recipes up or down this way!

View attachment bakers_percent_calc.xls


More info here if you don't use this system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_percentage


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## Tim F (24/7/08)

Oh and here's my latest loaf! I'm home sick today so this was pure comfort food, I don't usually make much white bread. I wanted something light and airy with a nice irregular hole structure. This was about 75% hydration with a small amount of yeast. I stirred just enough to mix the ingredients, then let it sit for 10 minutes before just lightly kneading for about 1 minute. Then I let it rise for 6 hours before gently knocking it down and shaping the loaf. I tried twisting rather than the usual fold and pinch to shape it, worked out ok I think. I baked it at 250C on a stone, with a tray of water underneath and quite a bit of misting with a water spray for the first minute of baking as well.

Tastes good!


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## Katherine (29/7/08)

Red Wine and Wholemeal sour dough

Not bad... just a touch doughy, less wholemeal next time. We added red wine instead of water. Im trying to source cabernet flour!


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## Tim F (29/7/08)

Looks fantastic! How does it taste?


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## Katherine (30/7/08)

> Looks fantastic! How does it taste?




The taste was good but the texture was not quite right... Less Wholemeal next time.....


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## johnno (2/8/08)

Fired up the oven yesterday and after the pizzas we threw a few loaves in.

I am still calculating correct temps for the oven. This batch got slightly burnt but still a delicious tasting bead. I am still working on a sourdough starter to make a good sourdough.

cheers
johnno


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## Tim F (2/8/08)

That looks great - do you have one of the pompei style dome ovens? I am in the early stages of planning my own  Do you think yours holds it's heat well enough to do multiple bakes of bread from a single firing?

With the sourdough starter a good bit of advice I read in one of Peter Reinharts books was to stir the starter well every day, to aerate the dough and redistribute the food to the yeast and bacteria (same principle as aerating your wort/starter). I don't know if it's cheating but once I had some activity in my starter, I added a pinch of yoghurt mix from a yoghurt making packet to make sure that I had plenty of nice bacteria, and it seems to have worked out pretty well. I use 100g of starter per loaf, and ferment for 24 hours with a couple of kneads/stirs in between before shaping and proofing and I get a pretty nice open loaf.


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## johnno (3/8/08)

Tim that is a cob oven. The poor mans version of a wood fired oven.  But if the mix is made properly they can last a very long time.


Oh and I should add that it holds the heat ok. The second layer of cob that went on it should have been thicker but i did not have the time. I may put a third layer on but I want to see how the cracks hold up. So far so good.

I could probably bake bread in it twice a single firing but would need to time it perfectly. It holds about 6-8 loaves in it depending on their size.

There a pics in the pizza thread as well.

Piccy of it in this thread.


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...23990&st=20

cheers 
johnno


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## seemax (3/8/08)

My first attempt at Naan bread. The dough recipe was similar to my pizza dough except with it was 50/50 plain flour and strong flour and had natural yoghurt and full fat milk in it. 

I rolled them very thin in large oval like you get from your suburban Indian restaurant. I used a pizza stone in the electric oven and preheated it to about 220C. The bread was topped the bread with a mix of cheese,garlic, sesame seeds and butter (no ghee handy).

To my delight, they turned out quite well, not exactly as I was hoping, but everyone eating them were impressed! 



The end result









A Sierra Nevada clone from a recent small swap, very enjoyable!





Stef


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## King Brown (24/11/08)

Corn bread, made yesterday using left over starter cultured from Wyeast forbidden fruit





about 100ml of starter
170mls warm water
225g maize meal
450g unbleached white flour
150ml milk
30ml olive oil
1 1/2 tsp salt
Polenta for dusting

mixed the water, yeast, half the maize and 50g of flour into a batter, left in a covered bowl for 30 minutes (till the batter started bubbling) then added the rest of the liquid into the batter and gradually stirred in the remaining flour/maize. Turned out the dough and kneaded for 10 minutes to develop the gluten, then back in the covered (and oiled) bowl for 1 1/2 hours. Turned out the dough again and knocked back, rolled into shape and placed on baking tray dusted with maize meal, covered with an oiled bowl and left for an hour to rise. Baked at 230c for ten minutes, then at 190c for 25 minutes. 

The bread has a soft almost cake like texture on the inside with a crunchy crust on the outside :icon_drool2:


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## Katherine (3/2/09)

Cheese, Bacon and Onion Bread


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## Steve (3/2/09)

Katie said:


> Cheese, Bacon and Onion Bread
> 
> View attachment 24473




Yum. Nice and warm with lashings of butter. Looks great
Cheers
Steve


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## jonocarroll (8/3/09)

My first attempt at spent-grain-bread: Grist from my Belgian Pale Ale. Mmmmm. Still picking bits from my teeth. Perhaps I should have put the grain through the food processor first. It's not _too_ grainy, but the husks are fiddly. This won't last long. :icon_drool2:


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## drsmurto (8/3/09)

Just starting making my own bread. Partner brought home a bread maker recently.

Its a bit K&K at present till i find my feet.

Just baked a tomato and basil loaf today with both special ingredients coming from the garden.

Keen to get into 'real' bread making soon using some beer yeast (or sourdough starters) spent grain etc etc.

The sourdough loaves look sensational. :icon_drool2: 

Anyone made decent a decent croissant or pain au chocolate?

Pumpkin harvest looks like being a monster this year so am looking for some good pumpkin bread/cake recipes.

Bread and beer, no wonder my belt needs a few more holes in it............. :unsure:


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## jonocarroll (8/3/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Just starting making my own bread. Partner brought home a bread maker recently.


I'd like to know exactly what those machines do (apart from baking, of course) - I didn't realise that I could make bread so easily with my hands. Exact same ingredients as the machine stuff. Damn lovely!



DrSmurto said:


> Its a bit K&K at present till i find my feet.
> Pumpkin harvest looks like being a monster this year so am looking for some good pumpkin bread/cake recipes.


That's the analogy I used too. Bought a 'kit' pack with the ingredients portioned out. Gotta say, at $1.50 a loaf, can make some darn tasty soy & linseed bread! Making pumpkin bread later this week. Also keen for any recipes anyone has.


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## Katherine (9/3/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Just starting making my own bread. Partner brought home a bread maker recently.
> 
> Its a bit K&K at present till i find my feet.
> 
> ...



My partner has made some croissants they were okay not buttery enough... He will master it, when he does I post photos. 

I'm trying to master the sponge cake at the moment first try was not bad!


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## King Brown (10/3/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Just starting making my own bread. Partner brought home a bread maker recently.
> 
> Its a bit K&K at present till i find my feet.
> 
> ...



Sour doughs are a lot easier to make than they seem, and the only ingredients you need for a basic one is flour, water and a little bit of salt. You just gotta make em a few days ahead of time. 

Good croissants take time, basic method is kinda like a combination between bread and puff pastry (ie, as well as rests to prove, the dough needs to be folded several times with rests in between, so it needs plenty of rests!)


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## BillyBushCook (10/3/09)

Some nice looking breads there guys!
I do a lot of cooking in Camp Ovens, hense the user name,
Check here for heaps of recipes & ideas.
http://www.aussiecampovenforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

Breads (& all things yeasty) are one of my specialties,..... Naans - I notice one of you doing them in the oven, try doing them in a dry pan like a Tortilla, they work a treat,
This is some of my bread rolls I make in the CO, The pic doesn't show how big they are, but the tin is close to 500mm dia & 80mm deep.



























Cheers, Mick.


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## Fents (10/3/09)

third pic down is the money shot! wheres all our invites to this bbq/roast?


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## BillyBushCook (10/3/09)

Yeh the kids sitting there salavating & whinging about waiting for the pic to be taken! LOL.

Mick.


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## Katherine (10/3/09)

These have being previously being shown on the sour dough thread.... but this is good bread porn so worth showing again.... this was done with our original sour dough starter (Frank) then feed with LCPA...

That reminds me DOC how is your sour dough starter going.? Gonzo was it not! Frank has since past away....


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## jeddog (10/3/09)

beautiful shot of the Horizon :lol: 


Nice bread....bet ya it cost ya some dough to make :blink: 

just envious........


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## Benbrewer (11/3/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> My first attempt at spent-grain-bread: Grist from my Belgian Pale Ale. Mmmmm. Still picking bits from my teeth. Perhaps I should have put the grain through the food processor first. It's not _too_ grainy, but the husks are fiddly. This won't last long. :icon_drool2:


My LHBS is a Brew and Bake. Now I know why. I think both bread and beer get a mention right up the front end of the Bible. It is Gods will!!!! ( or any other deity, no discrimination here)


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## jonocarroll (11/3/09)

Benbrewer said:


> I think both bread and beer get a mention right up the front end of the Bible. It is Gods will!!!! ( or any other deity, no discrimination here)


So do ribs... where's the BBQ thread?


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## benny_bjc (1/4/09)

Hi,

Just baked a damper / bread loaf using Coopers Sparkling Ale.

Below is my picture and recipe.






Recipe:

1 1/2 Cups Self Raising Flour
1 1/2 Cups Wholemeal Flour
1 Teaspoon Salt
1 Tablespoon Sugar
375ml Coopers Sparkling Ale, Pale Ale or similar

Preheat Oven to 180 degrees
Sift and mix the dry ingredients in a bowl
Slowly pour one stubby (375ml) of coopers sparkling ale (or pale ale etc) and mix well.
Grease a loaf tin with butter and pour the dough mixture in.
Bake in moderate oven for approximately 40 minutes (dependant on oven and desired result)

Enjoy!

Has a strong aroma coming from the beeread especially when its cooking up! 
Subtle taste... tasted great straight out of the oven with some butter spread on it.

Next time I'm going to experiment using some Coopers Stout instead.

Cheers!!!


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## sijani (2/4/09)

I think that is the first beer cake I've seen.


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## seemax (2/4/09)

Finally got a chance to attempt my first sourdough, made a starter over 3 days with flour, water and some golden ale. Got it nice and frothy and sour smelling, then made the dough with high protein flour, sugar, salt, oil. 




Not as sour as I would have expected but really nice anyway.


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## Katherine (2/4/09)

seemax said:


> Finally got a chance to attempt my first sourdough, made a starter over 3 days with flour, water and some golden ale. Got it nice and frothy and sour smelling, then made the dough with high protein flour, sugar, salt, oil.
> 
> View attachment 25853
> 
> ...



The older the starter the more sour the bread will become. Have you kept your'e starter? keep feeding! Another hint, slash your bread!


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## jonocarroll (2/4/09)

Katie said:


> Another hint, slash your bread!


I've been wondering - how do do that, and what it does? :huh:


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## Katherine (2/4/09)

Use a razor... if your'e baking on a stone and freeform its best so it does burst!


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## benny_bjc (2/4/09)

sijani said:


> I think that is the first beer cake I've seen.



I made a coopers stout and chocolate cake too! I don't have any photos though, but it tasted pretty good!


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## Katherine (7/4/09)

Lates first attempt at Croissants.... not bad but they will be better next time... 

Didnt want to start another thread so put it here.


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## jonocarroll (7/4/09)

I see your croissants and raise you... 

Tokay (similar to muscat) infused non-denominational spiced fruit buns, decorated with plus signs. For supper at tonight's AWBCA meeting. Not too bad considering I have no kitchen bench-tops at the moment. <_<


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## Katherine (8/4/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> I see your croissants and raise you...
> 
> Tokay (similar to muscat) infused non-denominational spiced fruit buns, decorated with plus signs. For supper at tonight's AWBCA meeting. Not too bad considering I have no kitchen bench-tops at the moment. <_<



Wow they look great, how did they taste?? 

The croissants _I must ammit I did not bake they came out of Late's Brewery/Bakery which is a combination of myself and partner. I watch and learn. Just about to make my first sourdough starter... A Light Rye I am thinking. Llloyd my partner was just talking the other day about making hot cross buns - I mean non=denominational spiced fruit buns... Did you use flour butter and sugar for the plus signs._


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## jonocarroll (8/4/09)

Katie said:


> Wow they look great, how did they taste??


Great! :icon_drool2: 

I had made a trial batch of non-infused buns last week, and they were a little firm, so I let these rise a bit longer and hoped that the tokay thinned them out - I think it worked. They are really only good the day you make them (no preservatives) and they were thoroughly enjoyed last night. None left.
_
_


Katie said:


> _Did you use flour butter and sugar for the plus signs._


Flour, tokay, and a tiny bit of water mixed up and put into a mini snap-lock bag, cut the corner off, instant piping-bag. The glaze was caster sugar, water, and tokay reduced and caramelised on the stove. I used Seppeltsfield grand tokay, which may have been a bit overkill, but now I have 85% of a bottle left to drink at my leisure.... mmmm.


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## Katherine (8/4/09)

The longer you let the dough ferment/sit the fresher the bread will be... We usually bake the bread on Sunday and it's still fresh for me to take to work for my collegues to eat the following day... the great thing about sourdough is you can still toast it days later and have lashings of butter...


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## drsmurto (8/4/09)

Katie said:


> Lates first attempt at Croissants.... not bad but they will be better next time...
> 
> Didnt want to start another thread so put it here.
> 
> View attachment 26050



Top left is the money shot.

Add some chocolate to it and voila - pain au chocolate. Was my breakfast and occasional late night snack when studying drinking in France.


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## Katherine (8/4/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Top left is the money shot.
> 
> Add some chocolate to it and voila - pain au chocolate. Was my breakfast and occasional late night snack when studying drinking in France.



yum... we did add some lemon butter to one of them... it was okay but not chocolate we didnt have any on hand. There quite hard to make and alot work... softer flour next time and more work space. Some off them were nearly perfect until you got to the middle. Not a bad first effort.


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## Katherine (9/4/09)

Katie said:


> Use a razor... if your'e baking on a stone and freeform its best so it does burst!



I just re read my reply... what I meant to say is you slash the bread so the bread burst's were you intend it to and not else were.


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## BillyBushCook (9/4/09)

beer007 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just baked a damper / bread loaf using Coopers Sparkling Ale.
> 
> ...



Dude,
Most important thing with making Dampers is to, NOT over work the dough,
It will knock the air out of it & give you a heavy loaf.
Best to mix all dry ingredients first, then gently fold the liquid in, with a broad bladed knife or spatula!!!!   

Cheers, Mick.


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## Airgead (9/4/09)

BillyBushCook said:


> Dude,
> Most important thing with making Dampers is to, NOT over work the dough,
> It will knock the air out of it & give you a heavy loaf.
> Best to mix all dry ingredients first, then gently fold the liquid in, with a broad bladed knife or spatula!!!!
> ...



Spot on. A damper is like a giant scone. If you over work a scone dough they come out like rocks. You want to gently mix it just enough to incorporate all the ingredients and just lightly shape the loaf and bake. For scones I very lightly roll and cut. Never re-roll scone dough. Its not worth it. The re-rolled stuff comes out too heavy. I roll my dough into a rough square and make square scones to avoid having to re-roll the fiddly bits you get when you cut round ones.

Cheers
Dave


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## Katherine (15/4/09)

My Partners Lloydies Easter Baking

Banana and Coconut Braid.... bread was fermented with my Chilli and Kaffir lime Leaf Ale....






And Rye Baguettes also fermented with my Chilli and Kaffir Lime Leaf Ale




Hungry guests gobbled the lot very quickly....


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## jonocarroll (15/4/09)

Katie said:


> Banana and Coconut Braid.... bread was fermented with my Chilli and Kaffir lime Leaf Ale....
> 
> And Rye Baguettes also fermented with my Chilli and Kaffir Lime Leaf Ale


 :icon_drool2: <-- 'nuff said.


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## Tony M (15/4/09)

I make a "malt" bread by replacing about 10% of the white flour with caramunich II ground to a flour in our old braun spice grinder. This gives a great malty flavour and attractive colour to boring old white bread.


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## Katherine (15/4/09)

These are done with choc malt.... and our stout...


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## LLoyd (15/4/09)

> The re-rolled stuff comes out too heavy. I roll my dough into a rough square and make square scones to avoid having to re-roll the fiddly bits you get when you cut round ones.



I think that's what the old man used to do. His pumpkin scones were famous! Never liked them much myself... Plain ones I'd only eat with heaps of jam and cream AND butter..


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## drsmurto (16/4/09)

Katie said:


> My Partners Lloydies Easter Baking
> 
> Banana and Coconut Braid.... bread was fermented with my Chilli and Kaffir lime Leaf Ale....
> 
> ...



Baguettes! They look amazing!

Christ, what dont you 2 make?

I havent found a decent croissant/pain au chocolate or baguette after living in France. And you have teased me with 2 out of 3..... (heads off looking for cheap flights to Perth....)


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## Katherine (16/4/09)

you will be making them before you know it... have you decided on what type of sourdough?


also those baguettes were fantastic.... espeacially with pate! mmmmmm


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## RobB (17/4/09)

Katie said:


> also those baguettes were fantastic.... espeacially with pate! mmmmmm



Let me guess, you also made the pate?

I'm starting to think that you watched far too many episodes of "The Good Life" as a child.


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## Katherine (17/4/09)

Malty Cultural said:


> Let me guess, you also made the pate?
> 
> I'm starting to think that you watched far too many episodes of "The Good Life" as a child.



ummm no but it's on the list of things to do... Though I remember Lloyd telling me it was the first thing he ever made as a child.... other then the cake he made on the floor as a 4 year old....


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## johnno (22/4/09)

I fired up the oven last week, made some pizzas and then threw these loaves in.

Haven't got around to making a sourdough starter yet. My only attempt was unsuccessful.


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## drsmurto (23/4/09)

Katie said:


> you will be making them before you know it... have you decided on what type of sourdough?
> 
> 
> also those baguettes were fantastic.... espeacially with pate! mmmmmm



Foie Gras smeared on a baguette? Now thats living... takes me back to my student days in rennes. :icon_drool2: 

Got my sourdough starter going as per Lloydies instructions. Will belt out some Pain de Campagne Rustique (or similar) but really want to get some baguettes going. Need to find a decent bread making shop in Adelaide to source all the different flours.


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## Katherine (23/4/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Foie Gras smeared on a baguette? Now thats living... takes me back to my student days in rennes. :icon_drool2:
> 
> Got my sourdough starter going as per Lloydies instructions. Will belt out some Pain de Campagne Rustique (or similar) but really want to get some baguettes going. Need to find a decent bread making shop in Adelaide to source all the different flours.



LLoydie was going to message you last night but we ran out of credit... Tools are great for bread making Lloydie seems to use what we have in the kitchen, you need a razor blade for slashing, also get yourself a water spray, so you spray water into the oven when putting the bread in. Also just any bowl will do to proof the bread in just flour it before hand. If you can get hold of linen to cover apparently cotten is no good as it sticks to the dough. Lloydie has experiemented with different flours and has his favourite's. One of his fav's is just Black and Gold plain flour apparently it has high amount of protein. He assumes it has a higher level of gluten in it. He also says the Anchor bread and pizza flour is good and seems to think that would be the one you would get wholesale. We are lucky to have Kakulus Sisters in Fremantle which stock sacks full of what ever so when we need Rye, Wholemeal, Polenta, etc etc we are fine. 

Lloyd is not one for receipes. That's why it is hard when people ask for one he never does the same one twice. 

Im doing a loaf this weekend, Im doing what is called a poolish so its another form of pre-fermentation it can also be called a sponge it usually consists of a simple mixture of flour, water and a leavening agent (typically yeast) Ill be using one of my Chilli and Kaffir Lime Leaf Ales (Im also brewing an Alt beer next weekend its being awhile) I will let it prove over night in the fridge until morning... Before adding the poolish to the rest of ingredients then before baking I will had a blue cheese and walnuts. 

I hope you can get some photos of your bread up and I will put mine up on Tuesday.. 

katie


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## Katherine (28/4/09)

My first solo bread.... done with an ale poolish (using my chilli and kaffir lime ale)

It has caramelised walnuts and gorgonzola... My work mates are enjoying it with Maggie Beer's Fig and fennel paste. very tasty and quite proud of myself. Thanks Lloydie for the lesson.


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## Bongchitis (4/5/09)

Katie,

Yours(and your mans) bread pics are something to behold, never seen bread that looks so nice let alone what it tastes like.

I think you have motivated a few to make sourdough now. myself included.

Great work with your beer and your bread... Fantastic.


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## Katherine (4/5/09)

Bongchitis said:


> Katie,
> 
> Yours(and your mans) bread pics are something to behold, never seen bread that looks so nice let alone what it tastes like.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much, nice to hear...

Katie


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## drsmurto (8/5/09)

2nd batch of Pain de Campagne du Rustique. This time it i watched it like a hawk!

Followed Lloydies solid beer thread for the starter and then mixed in required flour/water etc to get the loaf. Allowed it to rise (twice) in front of the fire while i was brewing.

Not too shabby - Cheers Llloydie for all the PMs, you're a legend!. :super:


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## Katherine (8/5/09)

Looks awesome.... Dr...

you do know that the solid beer thread was an experiment but we also found it created good bread. 

Let us know what it tastes like?


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## drsmurto (8/5/09)

Taste = :icon_drool2: 

Smeared some vampire repellentTM over it and felt weak at the knees......


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## LLoyd (9/5/09)

:super: Bloody nicely baked bread by the look of it Doctor!!
I'd love to know how it tasted and how the crumb looked.
Are you using a stone in your oven?


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## drsmurto (11/5/09)

Pizza stone was used. 

Had a tin of water in the oven as well.

Oven set to 230C.

Nice chewy crust that wasnt overly crunchy. Was very dense but partner agreed, great sourdough character.

Toasted with peanut butter (cheers katie) or vegemite was tops. 

Even smeared with oil from home roasted & marinated capsicums was fantastic.


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## Tim F (11/5/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Need to find a decent bread making shop in Adelaide to source all the different flours.


Check out Gaganis brothers for bulk flours - they have 10kg sacks for around $12. The Gaganis special white is awesome for pizzas, and I've had good results with the Allied Mills superb bakers flour for white loaves.


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## bonj (14/5/09)

These breads look great! 

I made some yeast raised Choc-hazelnut Cinnamon scrolls for dessert tonight. I was very pleased with my first (non packet mix) bread effort.


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## drsmurto (15/5/09)

Tim F said:


> Check out Gaganis brothers for bulk flours - they have 10kg sacks for around $12. The Gaganis special white is awesome for pizzas, and I've had good results with the Allied Mills superb bakers flour for white loaves.



Anything a tad closer to us?

Was thinking of dropping in on Bake and Brew at Gawler but i suspect its more packet mix based?


----------



## LLoyd (4/6/09)

Black and gold all purpose tops even the strong baker's from allied


----------



## King Brown (29/6/09)

Bonj said:


> These breads look great!
> 
> I made some yeast raised Choc-hazelnut Cinnamon scrolls for dessert tonight. I was very pleased with my first (non packet mix) bread effort.



:icon_drool2:


----------



## Tim F (8/7/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Anything a tad closer to us?
> 
> Was thinking of dropping in on Bake and Brew at Gawler but i suspect its more packet mix based?



I have seen sacks of Lauckes wallaby which is an organic bakers flour (I think) at the fruit and veg near woolies in mt barker - other than that, you can find some of the gaganis flours at foodland on glen osmond rd or the parade!


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## Yeastie Beastie (12/7/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Also keen for any recipes anyone has.



I did this one yesterday, pretty simple, extremely tasty.
I'm yet to give this baking game a fair dinkim go so I keep it pretty simple for now.
I got the recipe off the net.

 *Ingredients*

450g cooked pureed pumpkin

1 cup (250ml) vegetable oil

4 eggs

3 cups (430g) plain flour

3 cups white sugar

1 teaspoons baking soda

1 teaspoons salt

1 teaspoons ground allspice

1 teaspoons ground nutmeg

2 teaspoons ground cinnamon

cup (60g) chopped walnuts

1 teaspoon baking powder

*Preparation method* 

Preheat oven to 150 degrees C.

Combine pumpkin, oil and eggs. Sift together dry ingredients. Combine the two mixtures, blending thoroughly.

Pour into 2 greased 22x13cm loaf pans and bake for 1 hour.


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## yyeessno (16/7/09)

I once made a few loaves of with a sourdough culture I started with the lees of an IPA brew. The started kicked off really well and was pumping for about a month. It had slowed down a bit to normal starter levels but it still smelled beery and beautiful.

I tried some rye breads, some plain organic white sourdough, a few wholegrain mixes and quite simply every one of them was terrible.

The flavour was ordinary, the crumb was grey and soggy, the crust was thick and also grey and soft and not once did anyone enjoy eating it.

A very dissapointing thing. I tried everything I could to make it good but in the end I threw out the starter (after, of course adding a little bit to my normal white starter)


----------



## hairyson (19/7/09)

> Also keen for any recipes anyone has.


I've been making bread by that no-knead method the New York Times wrote about. Latest efforts involve spent grain because we have so much of it.

The recipe is:
600g flour (up to 50% wholewheat, or up to 20% rye)
150-200g spent grain
2 teaspoons salt
400ml water
some bread improver (supposedly Australian flours need it?)
1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon dried yeast (i.e. bugger all)

The method revolves around a really long first ferment -- maybe it's like the poolish Katie mentioned above. I mix it all together, including the yeast, don't play with it too much, then leave it covered in a bowl for up to a day (24 hours). Looks like first and second photo below at this point. 
Then I punch it down, and mix in more flour if needed. Roll it in cornmeal or polenta or oats or just more flour to stop it sticking to everything, and let it rise again for 2-3 hours. 
Bake in a covered, heavy pot for 30 minutes at 230C, and uncovered for another 15 minutes or so. The really wet dough steams itself, forming a crunchy crust, in place of putting a bowl of water in the oven or spraying with a mister. I haven't actually got a good heavy pot myself, so just use my bread pan with a baking sheet over the top as a lid.

I'm still working on the numbers, as I've been trying to get it to work in my breadmachine (just the baking bit) so I can set a timer for fresh bread in the morning. The breadmachine only gets up to 150C so it's been a bit tricky getting the moisture content right. 






and here's some photos of the bread:





ben


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## hairyson (20/7/09)

And here's the latest loaf from yesterday:




ben.


----------



## jdonly1 (20/7/09)

benny said:


> I've been making bread by that no-knead method the New York Times wrote about. Latest efforts involve spent grain because we have so much of it.
> 
> The recipe is:
> 600g flour (up to 50% wholewheat, or up to 20% rye)
> ...






benny said:


> And here's the latest loaf from yesterday:
> 
> View attachment 29024
> 
> ...


Bread improver is a good move.Also try a little oil,it helps with volume and freshness
Also a bit of gluten will help,try 1 to 2%


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## bonj (20/7/09)

jdonly1 said:


> Bread improver is a good move.Also try a little oil,it helps with volume and freshness
> Also a bit of gluten will help,try 1 to 2%


What is bread improver exactly? What's in it?


----------



## jdonly1 (20/7/09)

Bonj said:


> What is bread improver exactly? What's in it?


Read here
http://www.basicingredients.com.au/PDFiles/faq.pdf


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## bonj (20/7/09)

jdonly1 said:


> Read here
> http://www.basicingredients.com.au/PDFiles/faq.pdf


All that says is that it's a "combination of ingredients that improve" the bread. What I want to know is what those ingredients are. If I don't know what's in my bread, I may as well be using a packet mix. I want to know the raw ingredients. It's the same curiosity and desire for control that makes me do all-grain beer. 

Does anyone know what is actually in "bread improver"?


----------



## jdonly1 (20/7/09)

Bonj said:


> All that says is that it's a "combination of ingredients that improve" the bread. What I want to know is what those ingredients are. If I don't know what's in my bread, I may as well be using a packet mix. I want to know the raw ingredients. It's the same curiosity and desire for control that makes me do all-grain beer.
> 
> Does anyone know what is actually in "bread improver"?


*Bread Improvers and their Functions in Bread Dough*


The word improver could describe any process or ingredient that improves or enhances the quality of a baked loaf. In Australia, however, it usually refers to one specific ingredient. It is a blend of many compounds that have a specific effect on the final loaf quality or the processing of bread doughs. Bread improvers are usually, although not always, built on a Soya flour base or carrier. See below for a list of the most widely used bread improver bases;



Soya flour

wheat flour

Soya and wheat flour blend

diastatic malt flour



This carrier ingredient is blended with various micro-ingredients. The main function of the carrier is to allow the baker to weigh up a mixture of micro-ingredients in a practical and economical way, as the levels required are so small ( e.g. 30 parts ascorbic acid per one million parts flour) that the baker would not be able to weigh them with sufficient accuracy. However, it is these micro-ingredients that carry out the improving effects. These effects include:



gluten modification

yeast stimulation

enzyme supplementation

(In some types of improvers) crumb softening.



The levels of micro ingredients vary from improver to improver. There are two main types of improver. They are:



standard improvers

instant improvers




Standard improvers are used for bulk fermented doughs, doughs with long dough-to-oven times (DTO). Instant improvers are used for rapid doughs, doughs with short DTO times.



In todays rapid-dough systems, bread improvers affect the changes and modifications that occur in bulk fermented doughs without the long fermentation times being necessary. Today there are many bread improvers on the market, and many have a specific formulation. The blend of micro-ingredients in bread improvers is based on specific flour types and specific processing needs.



It is important to use the right improver for the flour type and process you are using and for the type of bread you are making. Be sure of the suitability of the improver. Be sure of the suitability of the improver you are using by contacting the manufacturer for technical specifications etc.




*Main functions of bread improvers*


Bread improvers have three main functions. They are:



1 conditioning the gluten

2 providing yeast with nitrogen source

3 enhancement of diastatic enzyme activity




*1 Gluten Conditioning*


In Section 2 Gluten development we dealt with gluten modification through the two processes called oxidation and reduction. These two processes are highly influenced by the compounds contained in bread improvers. These compounds are as follows:



ascorbic acid (oxidising agent) gluten strengthening

sodium meta-bisulphite (reducing agent) gluten softening

L-cystine (hydrochloride)




*Notes*


In order to retain the gas produced by the yeast in the dough, and to achieve good volume and a tender crumb in the final loaf, it is necessary to change or modify some gluten characteristics. Underdeveloped gluten in the dough at the commencement of mixing requires reduction (breaking of the cross bonds) to allow the gluten protein strands to be teased out and realigned. This process is achieved by the use of mechanical energy (mixing) and reducing agents. Reducing agents break the cross bonds, allowing the gluten strands to be untangled. This process imparts a measure of elasticity to the gluten protein and allows it to extend. Reducing agents are present in some types of bread improvers designed for dough overstable flours.



The ability of gluten protein to withstand the stress of the expanding gas and to retain it is enhanced by the formation of cross bonds (sulphur bridges). These cross bonds result in gluten strength gluten with an improved gas retaining ability. Cross bonds are encouraged by the presence of an oxidising agent. All bread improvers contain the oxidising agent ascorbic acid (Vitamin c).




*2 Nitrogen source for yeast*


The yeast cell requires nitrogen to synthesise proteins for new cell growth. Bread improvers provide a source of nitrogen for the yeast cell in the form of the mineral salt:



ammonium chloride or

ammonium sulphate



These compounds are readily absorbed by the yeast cell and energise yeast reproduction and zymase enzyme activity. The net effect is enhanced gas production.




*3 Enhancement of diastatic enzyme activity*


Bread improvers contain enzyme rich malt flour or fungal enzymes. Fungal enzymes are derived from specific fungi that naturally grow on wheat grain. These enzymes are from the amylase group which are always present in the flour and are responsible for the conversation of starch into maltose sugars. When the yeast is stimulated an additional supply of sugar is required. As the can sugar added by the baker and the limited amount present in the flour is not sufficient for the rapid dough method. This deficiency needs to be overcome in order to ensure there is sufficient sugar present to maintain steady yeast activity in the final proving and the initial backing stage.



Bread improver ensures this additional supply of sugar is provided by the amylase enzyme activity (diastatic activity). Diastatic activity is the conversion of starch (a polysaccharide) to dextrins by the enzyme alpha amylase. Dextrins are also polysaccharides but somewhat smaller. They are often referred to as long chain sugars. Dextrins are further broken down or converted to maltose (a disaccharide) by the enzyme beta amylase. Although flour contains both alpha and beta amylase enzymes, it is often deficient in alpha amylase enzymes.
















*Additional Functions*


Today most improvers contain crumb softening agents, anti-firming agents or emulsifiers. These crumb softeners and anti-firming agents include



mono and diglycerides of fatty forming acids

diacetyl tartaric esters of mono and diglycerides of fatty forming acids

sodium stearoyl lactylate (SSL0

calcium stearoyl lactylate (CSL)

lecithin polysorbates

sorbitans


----------



## bonj (20/7/09)

Wow thanks for that. Diastatic malt sounds interesting.... I wonder if I could just crush some bb galaxy and use that. Certainly wouldn't hurt the flavour any.


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## jdonly1 (20/7/09)

Bonj said:


> Wow thanks for that. Diastatic malt sounds interesting.... I wonder if I could just crush some bb galaxy and use that. Certainly wouldn't hurt the flavour any.


I have been a baker for over 20 years and have never really read what was in improver  I just know its great stuff


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## drtomc (21/7/09)

I used it consistently for about 5-6 years, baking 4-6 loaves every Saturday, then I ran out, found the bread came out just the same, and have not used it since (i.e. about the last 8 years).

I suspect it makes a big difference what flour, yeast, etc, you are using. If you have good fresh bread flour, and a vigorous yeast, it probably doesn't make much difference. If you're using cake flour, or marginal yeast, it probably makes a lot more difference.

T.


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## hairyson (22/7/09)

jdonly1 said:


> Bread improver is a good move.Also try a little oil,it helps with volume and freshness
> Also a bit of gluten will help,try 1 to 2%


I've put a tablespoon of olive oil in my latest batch (just finished mixing it tonight), so I'll get to see the difference over the next few days as the loaf ages. 

I don't want to add too much stuff to my bread, even the improver is a bit over the top for me, but I've been convinced by my dad that it's worthwhile. I think it's probably more important for very short DTO loaves like the breadmaker ones, but the style I'm using for these has a really long ferment, so it may not need it. In fact, by the skim-read of that info above from you, it may be not so good for long ferments. 
What would adding gluten do, apart from giving the bread more gluten! Is gluten 'developed' during fermentation/rising? If I have a really long ferment, does that negate the need for adding gluten? I'm guessing here, don't know enough about it.

I better get out of the way of some on-topic bread pr0n...


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## jdonly1 (23/7/09)

Gluten is the protien in flour and forms the structure for the loaf(in basic terms its what holds the air in and gives the loaf volume.With a good strong flour your bread should Kick or grow quite a bit when in the oven and it hits the heat.)
Basic run down
http://www.regional.org.au/au/roc/1988/roc198815.htm


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## Airgead (9/8/09)

Made some rolls for some burgers tonight.





Made these using the French kneading technique from a book called Dough (see my review in another thread).

Yum.

Cheers
Dave


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## bonj (10/8/09)

Airgead said:


> Made some rolls for some burgers tonight.
> 
> View attachment 29566
> 
> ...


They look fantastic. That kneading technique is great eh? I love how the dough starts coming together and gets that silky look to it. "Coming alive" he calls it.  I have his other book Crust and I'm trying to find Dough. Did you buy it recently, and if so can you tell me where? It seems to have been out of stock for a while everywhere I have looked, so I'm hoping it's back again.

-Bonj


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## Airgead (10/8/09)

Bonj said:


> I have his other book Crust and I'm trying to find Dough. Did you buy it recently, and if so can you tell me where? It seems to have been out of stock for a while everywhere I have looked, so I'm hoping it's back again.
> 
> -Bonj



I bought both of them from Amazon a couple of weeks ago. Even with shipping it was cheaper to get them from there than get them locally.

Only took a week to arrive too.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## bonj (10/8/09)

Thanks. Looks like Angus and Robertson have it in stock for $49.95. Only $15 more (with shipping at the current exchange rate) and I don't have to compromise my anti-software patent principles h34r:


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## Airgead (10/8/09)

Bonj said:


> Thanks. Looks like Angus and Robertson have it in stock for $49.95. Only $15 more (with shipping at the current exchange rate) and I don't have to compromise my anti-software patent principles h34r:



I know what you mean. I had to compromise my principles to buy from the great satan but the bread is worth it.

Cheers
Dave


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## cubbie (13/8/09)

I don't head much into the food forum and I am not sure why as i do just as much food stuff as I do beer. Here are some old bread shots I have plenty more that i will put up when I can get them off the old laptop.

I made these breads in the UK in an average oven, my oven at home now is even worse but I am doing a sourdough this weekend. i may even decide to krank the pizza oven up and do some bread in there.

anyway just a few pics.


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## drtomc (13/8/09)

Airgead said:


> Made some rolls for some burgers tonight.
> 
> View attachment 29566
> 
> ...



Top book. I'd been baking most of our bread for 10 years when I found this book, and the technique in it really took my bread up another notch.

T.


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## Airgead (14/8/09)

But wait... there's more - 

Fougasse



Poppy seed horseshoe



The days work all together



OH YEAH!


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## DiscoStu (17/8/09)

My second Sourdough attempt with a couple of cups of spent grain thrown in


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## AussieJosh (26/8/09)

Im looking at making bread for the first time tomorrow night to impress my chef girlfriend. she is a qualified chef but she is a specilaty pastry chef! So it will be hard to impress her! If you guys could give me a basic sourdough recipie, maybe one that i can add an ale or stout to that you think taste bloody good! I would be very thankfull! And i may even get some sex!


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## Airgead (27/8/09)

AussieJosh said:


> Im looking at making bread for the first time tomorrow night to impress my chef girlfriend. she is a qualified chef but she is a specilaty pastry chef! So it will be hard to impress her! If you guys could give me a basic sourdough recipie, maybe one that i can add an ale or stout to that you think taste bloody good! I would be very thankfull! And i may even get some sex!



If you want to make sourdough tomorrow night you have left your run a bit late... to get a starter going and get it ready for bread making will take at least a week.

A simple white dough may be a better option for a first go but even that takes quite a bot of practice to get the hang of.

500g strong bakers flour
2 tsp salt
15g fresh yeast (or 1 packet of dried)
Water - about 350ml but don't add it all at once.. its something that varies a little depending on temp and humidity. You can replace some of the water with beer if you want.

Mix together into a moist dough. Kneed (French or English method) until it is smooth and elastic. You shouldn't need to add flour unless you have made your dough really wet. How to tell when its done? An old baker once told me to kneed it until it feels like your girlfriend's breasts when you squeeze it. This only works for natural breasts. Falsies don't have the right feel.

Sprinkle lightly with flour, place in bowl, cover and let rise in a warm place for about an hour or until it has doubled in size.

Gently scrape the dough out onto a floured surface and form into a long log. Cut in half to make two smaller logs. Shape into loaves (round or oval). Place of a floured tray to rise again (another hour). Slash the tops just before they go in.

You need to have the over hot. I mean really HOT. As hot as it will go. And make sure you pre-heat it really well. If the oven is too cool you won't get a good crust. Spray the oven with a fine mist of water from a spray bottle as you put the bread in. The will help it rise more by delaying crust formation.

As the bread goes in turn the oven down slightly to around 225 and bake for about 15-20 mins. Don't open the door to check on it you will let the heat out. You want it nice and golden brown.

Let it cool completely before eating otherwise it is heavy and indigestible. If you want it warm, bunk it back in a hot oven for a couple of minutes just before you serve.

Good luck.


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## Effect (31/8/09)

saw this and have to make it...looks brilliant...


This guy also does a sour dough bread video...have a look if you are interested.


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## bonj (11/9/09)

Finally picked up Dough yesterday. I've had Crust for a while, but Dough looks awesome too. You can't have one and not the other. Got it from Angus & Robertson for $39.99 (the paperback version)... well, it was part of my father's day present, so I didn't actually pay anything


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## Airgead (30/9/09)

The latest from the oven - 





White bread sticks (funny shape because I was an idiot and made them too long for my baking stone) 




Same basic bread but with rosemary and sun-dried tomato kneaded through it.


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## Airgead (24/10/09)

Haven't posted too many bread photos recently so after todays mamoth baking session I figured I should make you all drool a little - 

Nice earthy, wholemeal bread today 

Round loaf 




Long loaf




Bread rolls




Plain




And fancy




And the days effort all together




Cheers
Dave


----------



## bonj (24/10/09)

thanks for the inspiration, Dave. I was thinking about doing some baking tomorrow


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/11/09)

Sourdough Rolls and a Long roll with oates kneaded and rolled into the dough before baking


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## Tony (1/11/09)

whats the peg for mate?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/11/09)

In case you drop bye and cant handle the awsome aroma from the kitchen


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/11/09)

Sourdough Rolls


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## Tony (4/11/09)

did you drop them in the flour mate?

What did you use as a starter.

Im thinking of getting a sourdough starter going.

cheers


----------



## Tony (4/11/09)

Here is a "copy and paste" from a nother forum i frequent.

some great info on making a sourdough starter.

Im going to start mine tonight and will post progress.

Cheers



I'm too passionate about Sourdough to witness folks failing left and right without a fight!!!!! I've witnessed way too many give up over the years! Never, ever, give up!!!

There are a couple 'secrets' that you can use to significantly increase your chances of culturing a healthy sourdough starter on the first try.

Firstly,
Sourdough yeasts and bacteria thrive in an acidic environment.
Creating an acidic environment (using acidic fruit juice the first 3 days of starter culture) from the start will ensure that conditions are right for good starter production and help keep nasties from getting a foothold.

Secondly,
Aerating (mixing) the starter 2-3 times per day (until the starter is ready for use in a recipe), not just when the starter is fed, will help keep the mixture evenly acidic which helps to ensure that the bennies have perfect conditions and the nasties are discouraged.

Anyway....
Here's the formula for success in more cases than not!

Day 1: mix together...
2 T. whole grain flour (rye or wheat)
2 T. unsweetened pineapple juice or orange juice
Cover and let sit at room temperature for 24 hours.


Day 2: add...
2 T. whole grain flour
2 T. juice
Stir well, cover and let sit at room temperature 24 hours. At day 2 you may (or may not) start to see some small bubbles.


Day 3: add...
2 T. whole grain flour
2 T. juice
Stir well, cover and let sit at room temperature 24 hours.

Day 4:

Stir down, measure out 1/4 cup and discard the rest.
To the 1/4 cup add...
1/4 cup flour (any good non additive flour can be added at this point)
1/4 cup filtered or spring water

Day 5 and beyond.....continue the same daily procedure until the mixture is very active and yeasty, is the starter stalls add 1/4 tsp apple cider vinegar to the other added ingredients daily...that'll lower the PH and make things active again


Using just flour and water incubates a gas producing bacteria, among other nasties, called Leuconostoc, that mimics the activity of yeast for the first few days...it gives off carbon dioxide bubbles, but then subsides creating a poor environment for yeast and leaving a nasty end product! Acidity fights Leuconostoc and other nasties!

That may very well be what has happened in your case.

Leuconostoc is, allegedly, becoming more and more prevalent on the surface of wheat and subsequently in flour.

Here's some interesting reading relating to the use of acidic juice to kick-start the starter......

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/108...olution-part-1
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/109...olution-part-2
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/103...tion-sourdough

Another option is to request some of Carl Griffith's 1847 Oregon Trail Sourdough Starter, which is still available for a Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope...a great deal for just 88 cents!!!!

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/


----------



## Infinitee (4/11/09)

I would recommend a kefir culture (else just a quality yoghurt-whey (jalna) and some bread yeast) and to culture the sourdough for as long as you can stand the smell. 
I also use more rye flour than the average recipe recommends ... such a hearty, proteinous bread.

I'm very curious.
When people make a wholemeal roll/loaf/bread ... how much wholemeal flour to white do you use?

Anyone grind their own grains?
(Or just your gears!)


----------



## cubbie (5/11/09)

Infinitee said:


> I would recommend a kefir culture (else just a quality yoghurt-whey (jalna) and some bread yeast) and to culture the sourdough for as long as you can stand the smell.
> I also use more rye flour than the average recipe recommends ... such a hearty, proteinous bread.
> 
> I'm very curious.
> ...




I use 100% stoneground flour


For a good bread book have a look at 

BREAD MATTERS: The State of Modern Bread and a Definitive Guide to Baking Your Own
Andrew Whitley

He is rather anal about the whole process, but you will get a good understanding of how bread is traditionally made, how it has changed etc. Good description of flours and what is added to our bread these days.

He definitely will not do make additions of pineapple, grape, yoghurt etc to get a sourdough going. He will only call it a sourdough if it is rye otherwise it is a leaven. Has a number of other books out.


This is the book http://books.google.com.au/books?id=qQsSTI...;q=&f=false


----------



## Airgead (1/1/10)

An absolute orgy of baking over the last couple of days. In addition to the no kneed bread I made (see the no knead thread) I also did - 

Two sourdough loaves - 






24 hour rise with the last 12 hours in the fridge to really slow it down. I thin I'll do it in reverse next time as the fridge dried out the top a bit and caused some huge bubbles to form under the crust (which is why its a tad dark in places). 

And Chibbata - 






Still need to work on the look of the chibbata. They look more like turds than slippers but the texture is spot on.


----------



## Airgead (1/1/10)

Not quite bread in the traditional sense but the missus got into the baking spirit as well yesterday and we have - 

Almond bread 

Baked




Then sliced and dried/toasted in a low oven




and Highland Oat Cakes (fantastic with a wee dram of single malt)






Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead (2/1/10)

I left some out - Italian flat bread.

I made 4 - two baked soft to use as wraps. They came out of the oven at lunchtime and lasted about 30 seconds before being torn apart by a hungry mob so no pictures. The other 2 I covered in rosemary and sea salt and baked crisp to use as a crispbread. This is the only survivor. Its mate suffered a nasty fate involving a bowl of home made hummus...






Cheers
Dave


----------



## chappo1970 (6/1/10)

Did a spot of baking with the Billy Lids this morning... We had lots of fun

Hot fresh rolls with butter and Jam Yummy!


----------



## fraser_john (17/1/10)

Our bread, this is all we eat in terms of sliced bread. Wife makes about three of these a week.


----------



## bonj (17/1/10)

Some small, large and some strangely shaped baguettes.... Yes!! I said *baguette*!


----------



## chappo1970 (17/1/10)

Bonj said:


> View attachment 34893
> 
> View attachment 34892
> 
> ...



We are but mere mortals compared to the Bonjinator...  

They look great!


----------



## drsmurto (18/1/10)

Airgead said:


> And Chibbata -
> 
> View attachment 34285
> 
> ...



Would love to make ciabatta. What's your recipe mate?

Got myself a bench mixer after deciding part of the reason i struggle with my sourdough loaves is the lack of kneading. After 2-3 mins i am bored and stop but can now leave it in the machine for 15 mins and then a 2 min hand knead.

Also need to get myself some proper tins to allow me to prove the bread in the same container rather than having to take it out and knocking most of the air out of it. My sourdough is just too dense for my liking.


----------



## Airgead (18/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Would love to make ciabatta. What's your recipe mate?
> 
> Got myself a bench mixer after deciding part of the reason i struggle with my sourdough loaves is the lack of kneading. After 2-3 mins i am bored and stop but can now leave it in the machine for 15 mins and then a 2 min hand knead.
> 
> Also need to get myself some proper tins to allow me to prove the bread in the same container rather than having to take it out and knocking most of the air out of it. My sourdough is just too dense for my liking.



I'll dig the recipe up for you at home tonight. Its the one out of Dough (Richard Bertinet). You basically make up a dough that you let ferment overnight (though I find 24 hours works better) then mix that into a second dough which you then rise and shape into the loaves. The 24 hour fermented dough gives you a massive rise and the open structure that chibata is famous for (provided you don't treat it too roughly and knock all the air out when forming the loaves). Takes 2 days to make but well worth it.

I'll give you quantities etc when I look it up tonight.

If your loaves are collapsing when you handle them after proving it means they have risen too much for the gluten structure to support. Two reasons for that - not enough kneading or you just let them rise too much. Its really easy to over rise bread. If you keep them in the same container to stop collapse and they are over risen, you won't get any lift in the oven. Better than collapsing but still not what you want.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Duff (19/1/10)

These were from Sunday. First attempt. A plain white, and a white with sun dried capsicum and Italian herbs. Great flavour with the herbs.

Some questions though. The bread was very heavy and dense, which the day after fell apart when on a sandwich.  How do I fix this to make it light and soft? More kneading?

Cheers.


----------



## manticle (19/1/10)

Could be a number of things duff.

First the recipe needs to be tried and true (or at least a good one)

Secondly the dough mixture needs to be the right proportions. It should have enough water so that all ingredients mix together but enough flour so that nothing sticks to the sides of the mixing bowl when first mixed in. Even the best recipe requires adjustment and I always found it easier to reserve a little of the water despite what the recipe calls for. Better to mix a bit drier and add extra water than try and come back from too wet a mix. Kepp plenty of flour handy. Some of the water can be replaced by olive oil or even unsalted butter for a lovely rich smooth bread.

Then it needs to be kneaded (don't we all) until it's smooth and tight but not overkneaded till it's a rock. It is hard to overknead bread by hand at this point but it is possible. Basically you should be able to pull off a small ball of dough, roll it into a ball and it should look nice and smooth. If pressed there should be some resistance and some elasticity (tenency to return to shape). Good kneading should take in excess of ten minutes (dependent on the size of the dough - it's a feel/visual thing more than a time thing but be prepared to put in the time).

Then it should be allowed to prove in a warm (not hot) place, preferably covered with glad wrap, until about twice the size. Don't let it overprove.

Then it should be knocked down (punched, squashed etc until the air comes out- only requires one or two 'punhes' and it's not your mother in law) then kneaded lightly for a few minutes again. This time it's crucial not to overknead. You'll feel it tighten up pretty quick.

Shape it or roll it out VERY LIGHTLY at this point and place it in whatever greased/oiled baking dish you are using. Too much force here will result in a possibly tough, flat bread. Dust it with flour and allow it to prove again - either uncovered or covered with a clean cloth until it's equal to or just risen above the level of the baking dish. 

Brush on some olive oil and sprinkle on some sea salt then put in a moderate/moderatley hot oven and bake until golden brown. The bread should have a hard surface (not super hard) and a slightly hollow sound when tapped gently. Skewers will tell you if it's cooked if you can't tell otherwise but tapping is better (keeps in the air and heat).

Allow to cool for just a few minutes then gently shake out of the baking dish. You need to be super gentle here but with practice you can do it straight into a tea towel then place it immediately right side up onto a clean cooling rack. If you work as a chef/baker/cook for a while or have another reason to have burned most of the nerve endings in the ends of your fingers you won't even need the teatowel. Still be gentle though.

Place the cooling rack in the oven for another few minutes just to lightly brown and dry the bottom (it may still be soggy and doughy despite the broness of the top). Remove the bread from the oven and let it cool at ambient temps on the cooling rack. If you cut it while it's hot you may get dough lines as the bread continues to cook inside despite being removed from the oven.

When it's cool it should be good to go, provided your oven (unlike mine) is good and seals properly.


----------



## Airgead (19/1/10)

OK Ciabatta recipe (apologies for the delay)

For the ferment - 

355g bread flour
185g water
1/2tsp yeast

Mix into a rough dough. Place in bowl. Cover with gladwrap and leave for 24 hours.

For the bread

455g bread flour
10g yeast
340g water
5 tablespoons olive oil
20g salt
The ferment from step 1.

Put the flour in a bowl. Add the ferment, water, oil and salt. Work into a dough.
Turn out and knead until sufficiently kneaded.
Lightly oil a bowl and put the dough in it to rest for 1 1/2 hours covered with a cloth. It should rise and look bubbly and light.
Generously flour your work surface.
Turn the dough out of the bowl in one piece. Flour the top.
Press the dough down lightly (and I mean lightly... any heavy handedness here will cause you to lose the open structure) by dimpling it with your fingers.
Divide the dough into 4 equal strips.
Fold each strip into three (fold one side into the middle, then the other side into the middle then in half lengthways)
Place the dough on a well floured cloth. Cover with another cloth and let rise for 30-45 mins.
Flour a peel. Pick up one chibbata at a time, turn it over and place it on the peel giving it a little stretch as you do it. This gives it the Ciabatta shape.
Place into a really hot oven (250C or as hot as it will go) preferably on a heavy baking stone. Use whatever method you normally use to raise humidity (water spray, tray, whatever).
Once all the Ciabatta are in the oven, turn heat down to 220 and bake for 18-20 mins.

Have fun.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead (19/1/10)

manticle said:


> Then it should be knocked down (punched, squashed etc until the air comes out- only requires one or two 'punhes' and it's not your mother in law) then kneaded lightly for a few minutes again. This time it's crucial not to overknead. You'll feel it tighten up pretty quick.



Ahh... now here lies the crucial difference between the English and French bread methods. In the French method you don't knock it down and re-knead. You divide the dough and shape by folding very gently which gives the bread strength without knocking the air out and making it heavy.

My bread has been so much lighter since I stopped re-kneading after proving.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## manticle (20/1/10)

My bread was never heavy and sometimes it involved pain.

C'etait un bon mot.


----------



## drsmurto (20/1/10)

Airgead said:


> OK Ciabatta recipe (apologies for the delay)
> 
> For the ferment -
> 
> ...



Champion!

One (probably stupid) question. 

Flour a peel? What is a peel?


----------



## Airgead (20/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Champion!
> 
> One (probably stupid) question.
> 
> Flour a peel? What is a peel?



One of those flat wooden or metal thingies you use to put bread in an oven -


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/1/10)

For a standar2 white loaf, flour/water ratio is 1:.69 approx....ie 1kg flour, 690ml water


----------



## cubbie (20/1/10)

Duff said:


> These were from Sunday. First attempt. A plain white, and a white with sun dried capsicum and Italian herbs. Great flavour with the herbs.
> 
> Some questions though. The bread was very heavy and dense, which the day after fell apart when on a sandwich. How do I fix this to make it light and soft? More kneading?
> 
> Cheers.






manticle said:


> Shape it or roll it out VERY LIGHTLY at this point and place it in whatever greased/oiled baking dish you are using. Too much force here will result in a possibly tough, flat bread. Dust it with flour and allow it to prove again - either uncovered or covered with a clean cloth until it's equal to or just risen above the level of the baking dish.



If I am making a loaf of bread, I roll my dough out flat and then roll it up with the seam at the bottom before placing in the tin and proving.

Have a look at chapter 6 here. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=qQsSTI...;q=&f=false

This the method I use and the crumb is always fantastic for a basic loaf.

Make sure you are using a strong flour, also a longer fermentation increases the life of the loaf.


----------



## Duff (20/1/10)

Thanks for the tips. That bread was from Lloydie's post somewhere which was a 68% mix with 20gm salt and 10gm sugar.


----------



## Airgead (23/1/10)

Another orgy of baking last weekend- 

Flatbread
Salt and Rosemary




and Sesame




12 Spelt Baguettes (using a 2 stage process where half the dough is fermented for 24 hours before being added to the second part of the dough... absolutely amazing results)




And everything together (including a no knead loaf as documented in the no knead thread)-


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/1/10)

Anyone tried Chapati's, which is flat bread


----------



## Airgead (23/1/10)

And one of the Baguettes as served for lunch today with turkey, cranberry sauce and blue cheese...


----------



## Airgead (24/1/10)

Rye bread this weekend.

With Caraway seeds and oats




Rolls topped with oatmeal




Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!


----------



## drsmurto (24/1/10)

Airgead said:


> And one of the Baguettes as served for lunch today with turkey, cranberry sauce and blue cheese...
> 
> View attachment 35083



Thats a thing of beauty mate.

Once i get the sourdough sorted, then play with ciabattas i want to move onto baguettes and then my pastry holy grail - pain au chocolate.


----------



## Tony (1/3/10)

Foccatia.

Garlic, basil, Sundried tomato, olive oil and sea salt.

i only had crap quality flour and it didnt rise very well. Gunna get some good flour ASAP.


----------



## Fourstar (1/3/10)

Tony said:


>



Looks kinda like tilt shift photography there tony. Did you shop this? looks tasty BTW.


----------



## Tony (1/3/10)

Fourstar said:


> Looks kinda like tilt shift photography there tony. Did you shop this? looks tasty BTW.



na mate..... just got down low, set the camera to 1600 ISO, opened the aperture right up and focused on the middle.

Easy!

I will also use more tomato next time!

cheers


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/3/10)

Go to the supermarket and try to get the 10kg calico sack of Laucke flour..Will cost you $20 best value you can get without having to haggle with a bread shop..

Its a standard white breadmaking flour....and its damn good....

http://www.laucke.com.au/

If you search thru their site, they make a heap of speciality flours like rye etc


----------



## bonj (1/3/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Go to the supermarket and try to get the 10kg calico sack of Laucke flour..Will cost you $20 best value you can get without having to haggle with a bread shop..
> 
> Its a standard white breadmaking flour....and its damn good....
> 
> ...


No supermarkets in my area stock the 10kg bags, but they do carry 5kg bags in a number of brands. I've tried them all, including the Laucke brand and can't tell the difference between them, so I usually buy whichever is cheaper at the time.


----------



## Tony (1/3/10)

I usually get the 5kg bags of good bakers flour with 12% protein or higher. Cant remember the brand now.

much better than the old white wings with 9 or 10%

Best flour i ever got was the stuff at the starch plant i worked at. Min 14% protein!


----------



## Fourstar (1/3/10)

> na mate..... just got down low, set the camera to 1600 ISO, opened the aperture right up and focused on the middle.
> Easy!
> I will also use more tomato next time!
> cheers



Shit, pretty sharp photo for 1600ISO.

Im still gobsmacked at how tilt shift it is, usually you will have a center point focus and shallow DOF with blurring around all edges. Make it look like this and i will wet myself :icon_cheers:


----------



## Tony (2/3/10)

Fourstar said:


> Make it look like this and i will wet myself :icon_cheers:



Na.... i dont like plastic toys on my focattia bread.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/3/10)

Bonj said:


> No supermarkets in my area stock the 10kg bags, but they do carry 5kg bags in a number of brands. I've tried them all, including the Laucke brand and can't tell the difference between them, so I usually buy whichever is cheaper at the time.



I got some from Woolworth at Beaudesert....


----------



## Katherine (2/3/10)

Looks pretty good Tony.... how did it taste?


----------



## Airgead (2/3/10)

Fourstar said:


> Shit, pretty sharp photo for 1600ISO.
> 
> Im still gobsmacked at how tilt shift it is, usually you will have a center point focus and shallow DOF with blurring around all edges. Make it look like this and i will wet myself :icon_cheers:



:icon_offtopic:
Nahhh.. that's just shallow depth of field. Tilt/shift is used to get an off parallel focal plane. Particularly for architectural photography or tricky product shots where the focal plane needs to be not parallel with the film plane.

For shallow DOF all you need is a fast lens and open the aperture right up. You can put the focal point anywhere you like if you switch it to manual.

Actually, looking at that city shot full size there may be a tiny bit if tilt in there. The focal plan still runs straight across the frame but tilts back towards the camera a little. Could just be the angle the shot was taken at but could also be a little tilt.
:icon_offtopic: 

So.. hey.. anyone baked any nice bread lately? I did fruit bread (cranberry, apricot, currant, sultana). I'll post photos as soon as I get them off the camera.

Cheers
Dave


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## brettprevans (9/3/10)

cooking up nibbles yesterday to go over to the folks house for a peiking duck dinner :icon_drool2: 

made up a batch up olive and pecorino bread sticks (the pics only show about 1/2batch) . I used 1/2 pecorino and 1/2 aged parmasan. they were about 2cm wide and only in the oven for about 13min so they were nice and crisp on the outside but soft and chewy on the inside. sprinkling them with some dry polenta before baking also makes a nice flavour/texture highlight. 






they got eaten pretty quickly including by my wife who dislikes olives.


----------



## Katherine (9/3/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> cooking up nibbles yesterday to go over to the folks house for a peiking duck dinner :icon_drool2:
> 
> made up a batch up olive and pecorino bread sticks (the pics only show about 1/2batch) . I used 1/2 pecorino and 1/2 aged parmasan. they were about 2cm wide and only in the oven for about 13min so they were nice and crisp on the outside but soft and chewy on the inside. sprinkling them with some dry polenta before baking also makes a nice flavour/texture highlight.
> 
> ...



They look yummy! But how was the peking duck?


----------



## brettprevans (9/3/10)

Katie said:


> They look yummy! But how was the peking duck?


was awsome. 3 ducks marinated for 3 days, then spit roasted. i forgot to take pics for the 'whats on the table' thread 
oh and we had bombe alaska for desert. another pic i forgot to take.
all washed down with drank 4 longnecks of caseswap beers and a lovely red.


----------



## Katherine (9/3/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> was awsome. 3 ducks marinated for 3 days, then spit roasted. i forgot to take pics for the 'whats on the table' thread
> oh and we had bombe alaska for desert. another pic i forgot to take.
> all washed down with drank 4 longnecks of caseswap beers and a lovely red.



Yum.... no photo no proof! Ive never done a bombe alaska.... mmmmm


----------



## Airgead (9/3/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> was awsome. 3 ducks marinated for 3 days, then spit roasted. i forgot to take pics for the 'whats on the table' thread
> oh and we had bombe alaska for desert. another pic i forgot to take.
> all washed down with drank 4 longnecks of caseswap beers and a lovely red.



That's pretty slack...

Mind you, I have a bunch of photos for both threads and have been too slack to pull them off the camera...


----------



## Airgead (14/3/10)

Finally I got the pictures off the camera...

Apricot and cranberry fruit bread. Toasted with lashings of butter...




Very yummy for breakfast.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## drsmurto (4/4/10)

Finally nailing the sourdough.

The thing that finally allowed me to get a loaf that wasn't as dense as me was a tip my mother gave me and something I recall her doing when i was a kid.

Proving the bread in the car.

That and finally understanding what consistency the dough should be.

Its very satisfying to slice into the loaf, through a perfect crust to find the texture i have been working at for nearly a year.

Post proving - the top is almost crusty





Post baking 





Had some for lunch with home-made guacamole and hummus.


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## Duff (4/4/10)

Wow.

So I don't have to spend a year getting to that point (  ), please PM me your receipe.

Cheers.

Dr D.


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## Airgead (26/4/10)

Made a heap of bread last weekend. Used the 2 day fermented method from Crust. Make a ferment the day before and leave in the fridge overnight. Add the fermented sponge into the main dough the next day. Absolutely beautiful results.

Spelt Loaves - 










White with a dash of rye baguettes and manwich rolls (good man sized lunches - loaded with meat, mustard and salad) - 








Cheers
Dave


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## pdilley (26/4/10)

Ok Dave you must share the method 


Love the bread. Picked up some Panini di Casa small square individual bread roles for sandwiches from the store and they are lovely and full of holes. I'd love to give a go at making them if you have any clue for a recipe or technique?


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Siborg (26/4/10)

Ok, so I just discovered this thread... wow!

I mess around in the kitchen a bit, and haven't really given baking a go or even thought about it until I saw baking yeast at the supermarket the other day. I know you shouldn't use bakers yeast for brewing, but how do brewing strains go for baking? I'm assuming you guys use your brewing yeast? How do you go about culturing/using the yeast in your dough to make a loaf of bread? 

And how to you get those awesome looking slits in the crust? 

I'd love to have a go at this... I love my bread, and would love some fresh home made stuff better.


----------



## Duff (27/4/10)

My bread falls apart when trying to butter it, etc. Solid crust on the outside but won't hold together. Any tips? Knead longer?

Cheers.


----------



## Airgead (27/4/10)

Duff said:


> My bread falls apart when trying to butter it, etc. Solid crust on the outside but won't hold together. Any tips? Knead longer?
> 
> Cheers.



Sounds like the glutens haven't developed enough so its still 'cakey'. I'm guessing it is also pretty dense? 

Knead longer or maybe you need to use a higher gluten flour. If you use a soft cake flour it won't have enough gluten to work properly. You need a strong baker's flour.




Siborg said:


> Ok, so I just discovered this thread... wow!
> 
> I mess around in the kitchen a bit, and haven't really given baking a go or even thought about it until I saw baking yeast at the supermarket the other day. I know you shouldn't use bakers yeast for brewing, but how do brewing strains go for baking? I'm assuming you guys use your brewing yeast? How do you go about culturing/using the yeast in your dough to make a loaf of bread?
> 
> ...



I use plain old baker's yeast for baking. My supply of brewer's yeast tends to be a bit irregular so I keep a big jar of baker's yeast in the fridge so its always available.

The slits are done by slitting the tops of the loaves with a very sharp knife before they go in the oven. The bread expands in the hot oven and the slits open up. I also dust the tops of the loaves with flour before slitting to get a nice contrast.



Brewer Pete said:


> Ok Dave you must share the method
> 
> 
> Love the bread. Picked up some Panini di Casa small square individual bread roles for sandwiches from the store and they are lovely and full of holes. I'd love to give a go at making them if you have any clue for a recipe or technique?




Will do. I'll post the method tonight.

Never done Panne di Cassa but I'm guessing its an olive oil enriched dough (most Italian bread seems to be). For the light texture, try the 2 day ferment but raise the percentage of ferment in the final dough. You also want to handle it as little as possible in the shaping. Chibbata you just fold the dough in thirds and stretch a little. No pressing or anything that will close up the gas bubbles. I'm still working on my chibbata technique. Still too heavy handed.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (27/4/10)

For crumbly crumb issues I've noticed if the bread rises and dries a bit on the ouside that if you leave it on during punch down that you get streaks of hard white lines through the bread that are areas of cracking apart in the crumb.


Dave the panini is the tiny bun form, mine are square-ish of the pane but you are right about the huge gas bubbles and trying to not compress them by working it too much.

In general I've always been told it's best to underproof your dough when starting out than overproof as you can always expand the rise time out on the next batch. Something I've not done yet as the last batch I overproofed so it didn't hve as big of a rise action when starting the bake.

I think if I could get paninis down and sourdoughs then I'd be a happy camper for the test of my life 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead (27/4/10)

Ok. Here's my 2 day bread recipe.

For the ferment - 

10g yeast
500g white baker's flour
10g salt
350g water

Knead this dough as you usually would then form into a ball and place in a lightly floured bowl. Cover with a baking cloth and leave somewhere cool to rise for at least 6 hours. I rise mine for 12-18 hours in the fridge. The longer the better.

This makes 900g of ferment. The main recipe used 600g of it so you have 300 over that you can either keep going by adding more flour and water or it makes a fantastic pizza base.

For the main dough - 

950g white baker's flour (I substitute in 3-600g spelt of wholemeal when I want something a bit different)
50g rye flour
720g water
600g ferment
20g salt

Mix the 2 flours in a bowl. Add salt and water (my recipe says to add the salt half way through kneading but I find that really messy and it doesn't seem to have any effect). Mix until the dough comes together than cover with a cloth and rest for 30 mins. This initial resting is apparently called the Autolyse method. It was developed by Professor Raymond Calvel in France. The resting extracts the glutens from the flour and helps the dough come together quicker. I dunno... It does come together pretty quickly but I haven't tried doing the experiment and not resting it yet.

Add the fermented dough and mix well. It helps if you tear the ferment into pieces first. It also helps if you take the ferment out of the fridge and let come up to room temp before you start.

Work the dough as normal. I use the French kneading method. Use whatever method you like. This makes a lot of dough. Its too much for my mixer (Kenwood) to handle so you will probably end up working it by hand.

Lightly flour the work surface and form the dough into a ball. Place in a floured bowl,cover with a cloth and let rise for 1 1/2 hours.

Lightly flour the work surface again. Turn out the dough. Fold back into a ball. Place back in bowl,cover and let rise for another hour. It should be double in volume by now. The re-folding helps develop the structure.

Flour the work surface. Divide the dough. I find it makes 4 good size loaves or 12 baguettes or 24 regular rolls.. Shape as lightly as possible .

Place on floured cloth or baking trays. Cover with a cloth and let ruse for an hour or until just double in volume.

Slash tops. Place into a pre-heated 250c oven using peel or baking tray and mist well. Reduce heat to 220 after a minute or 2 and bake till done. Loaves take about 25 mins. Baguettes 12. Your oven may vary. Unless you have a giant oven you will need to bake in batches.

Best bread I have ever made.

You can keep the remaining ferment going with more flour and water and it will become a sourdough. Or you can use it to make pizzas.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (27/4/10)

Cheers for that Dave.

I just finished watching the CIA DVD on basic bread making (and laminated dough making [puff pastry]) and after seeing that I really feel like throwing away all my bread books and cook books with sections on bread making for being blue faced posers and just rubbish 

They even go into finished dough temperature and the calculation of friction temperature factor of your mixer so you can calibrate any mixer. They didn't cover recipes using ferment as an ingredient for better flavour and focus on day breads and making perfect baguettes down to criticality of slicing in the scores length depth shape and overlap  and how every shape to the same dough effect crust and crumb.

Good eye opener on the techniques used that I've not seen in any bread books in my local bookstores to date.

Best of all is seeing all the dough faults compared side by side pulled apart showing the differences when handled.

I'm going to give your 2 day a go this weekend. CIA describe salt as retarding yeast growth and used to slow down for flavour development and in hot bread shops or hot weather countries which explains why I found bread in southern Mexico so salty!

Also good seeing how a single dough can be worked into multiple crumb densities and crusts by the professional bakers manipulative touch.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead (27/4/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> Cheers for that Dave.
> 
> I just finished watching the CIA DVD on basic bread making (and laminated dough making [puff pastry]) and after seeing that I really feel like throwing away all my bread books and cook books with sections on bread making for being blue faced posers and just rubbish



What is this DVD of which you speak (and can I have a copy ;-)...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (27/4/10)

http://www.ciaprochef.com/fbi/dvds/bakingbread.html

They have other DVD products and books. They are short and succinct and to the point as they train professional chefs.

I'm sure Google will reward searches 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead (28/4/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> http://www.ciaprochef.com/fbi/dvds/bakingbread.html
> 
> They have other DVD products and books. They are short and succinct and to the point as they train professional chefs.
> 
> ...



Ahh yes... it helps if you search for culinary institute of america not cia... Typing CIA bread making into google gives you 400gazilion links to something claiming to be a cia field survival guide.

Looks interesting. Might have to pick up a copy.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## wobbly (28/4/10)

The book "Wild Sourdough the natural way to bake by Yoke Mardewi" is an excelent publication on the subject of making and baking with naturally femented sour dough bread.

Yoke only recomends you use good quality organic ingredients (which I don't necessarily follow 100%)

The book is a detail methodology from making your starter using whole grain rye flour and doesn't require you to discard half each day during the fermentaion period. It can be kept in the fridge for up to a month without issue and she also describes how to dry (like a water craker) the starter for future (years) reuse just grind it up and give it a feed and away you go after about 12 hours

Yoke runs classes in Perth and I have attended a couple and all her techniques are very easy and work. The starter she uses at the class has been in existance for over 5 years she just keeps rebulding it after each class.

Her technique of "Air Kneading" is very effective and easy to do. You just basically pick the dough up and through it into the air about 50 to 75 cm and let it slap back down on the bench. Do this for about 5 minutes and kneading is finished.

She also has developed a technique to basically perpare dough for 5 days baking on day 1 and after an initial rise of about 1 to 2 hours place the dough in the fridge for up to 5 days before baking (Fresh sour dough bread every day for 5 days) When the dough is removed from the fridge all that is necessary is to "fold" the dough back onto itself about 4 or 5 times and then shape the loaf and set aside for the final rise. This can take 5 to 6 hours as the dough is starting from a cold (5 or 6 degrees) basis

The publication is well worth a read She doesn't have a web site but her e-mail address is "[email protected]"

Cheers
Wobbly


----------



## Airgead (28/4/10)

wobbly said:


> Her technique of "Air Kneading" is very effective and easy to do. You just basically pick the dough up and through it into the air about 50 to 75 cm and let it slap back down on the bench. Do this for about 5 minutes and kneading is finished.



Sounds very much like the French kneading method I use.

It is very effective but requires a very soft and moist dough (mine are usually around 70-75% hydration... chibbata is up to 80%) . If your dough is firm you need to use the English method.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## felten (9/5/10)

Here is my latest bread, no pictures of the crumb atm because I am of the opinion that it is too beautiful to eat; so I will probably be bronzing it, or giving it to my brother, whichever happens first.






I found my breads improved 10 fold when I started using this banneton I found around the house, SO much more consistent.


----------



## Airgead (10/5/10)

felten said:


> Here is my latest bread, no pictures of the crumb atm because I am of the opinion that it is too beautiful to eat; so I will probably be bronzing it, or giving it to my brother, whichever happens first.
> View attachment 37900
> 
> View attachment 37901
> ...



They are things of absolute beauty.

Edit - I'm feeling very chuffed at the moment. We have some people from our French office out here at the moment so I gave them some of my mini baguettes last Friday with instructions to eat them over the weekend and report back on quality today. The reports are in and they are all positive. My French bread is authentically French as assessed by authentic French people. WOO HOO!

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (10/5/10)

Congratulations Dave.

I'm finishing off my rolls with that dough. Past 1st day crunchiness and now onto chewy yummy roll stage.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## bonj (10/5/10)

Made some small croissants for SWMBO for mother's day. I'm pretty happy with the result for my first attempt.


----------



## drsmurto (11/5/10)

Bonj said:


> Made some small croissants for SWMBO for mother's day. I'm pretty happy with the result for my first attempt.
> View attachment 37940



Wow, that is pure porn Bonj.

Be honest, is there is enough butter in one of these to fuel a small country?


----------



## Katherine (11/5/10)

Bonj said:


> Made some small croissants for SWMBO for mother's day. I'm pretty happy with the result for my first attempt.
> View attachment 37940



YUMMY!


----------



## bonj (11/5/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Wow, that is pure porn Bonj.
> 
> Be honest, is there is enough butter in one of these to fuel a small country?


Butter, sugar... all the good stuff :lol:


----------



## Katherine (11/5/10)

Bonj said:


> Butter, sugar... all the good stuff :lol:




how did the inside turn out?????


----------



## bonj (11/5/10)

Sorry, no photos of the inside. Too busy eating them. It was soft and buttery inside, with the characteristic croissant layered effect. I think I could probably do better, but for my first attempt, I'm extremely happy.


----------



## Katherine (11/5/10)

They look fantastic.... and that you have done it before! did you get the recipe out of CRUST?


----------



## bonj (11/5/10)

Yep! Followed the recipe in Crust. I just used normal supermarket unsalted butter, and was a bit worried about whether they'd work out during the process, but they turned out really well.


----------



## Airgead (11/5/10)

Bonj said:


> Yep! Followed the recipe in Crust. I just used normal supermarket unsalted butter, and was a bit worried about whether they'd work out during the process, but they turned out really well.



Been meaning to give that recipe a try for ages... you've inspired me to do it.

I can hear my arteries clanging shut already...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## bonj (11/5/10)

Airgead said:


> Been meaning to give that recipe a try for ages... you've inspired me to do it.
> 
> I can hear my arteries clanging shut already...
> 
> ...


I'd love to see a photo of them when you do! They're a good days work... starting the night before. I made 1 batch, but with the work required, I'd be inclined to do a double batch and freeze them before they're baked (using one of the methods he describes in Crust), or make 1 batch standard and 1 batch specialty like pain au chocolat or those tasty looking scrolls with the creme patissiere inside.


----------



## Airgead (11/5/10)

Bonj said:


> I'd love to see a photo of them when you do! They're a good days work... starting the night before. I made 1 batch, but with the work required, I'd be inclined to do a double batch and freeze them before they're baked (using one of the methods he describes in Crust), or make 1 batch standard and 1 batch specialty like pain au chocolat or those tasty looking scrolls with the creme patissiere inside.



Actually, the thing that's next on my list is chelsea buns. After my easter buns went down so well I have been asked (actually told) that I need to give chelsea buns a try.

Might give them both a try over the weekend.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (11/5/10)

Is it blasphemy to put a tiny bit of cheese and thin slice of ham in and roll them up before baking? 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Katherine (11/5/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> Is it blasphemy to put a tiny bit of cheese and thin slice of ham in and roll them up before baking?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



jalsberg, ham and dijon mustard then under the grill! yumbo


----------



## Airgead (23/5/10)

I did it.. I made croissants...


Dough rolled and cut ready for rolling.





On the trays








Egg washed and ready for baking




Looking good (bit too brown... oven was a touch too hot)




Inside.. light but not layered... I think I messed up the laminations when rolling it out. I need a bigger rolling pin.




Yum




With the leftover tough trimmings - snippets. Leftover croissant dough deep fried and rolled in cinnamon and sugar... :icon_drool2: My arteries may never recover.




Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (3/6/10)

No picture porn but Ive turned Daves dough recipe into a sourdough bread with good results.

First and foremost not all sourdoughs are highly sour but the style is still sourdough. That's what I've made. For truly sour sourdough I have a starter I've been feeding for 1 1/2 years in the Finnish sourdough tradition. It's had everything fed to it from grapes to sour milk to flours (bread, standard, organic rye, quinoa, millet and Ethiopian flours). It has true grog floaty liquid layer on top and all the good sour smells.

No, Daves recipe an technique modification makes a sourdough without a much sour at all. Good for pommy wives an others just getting introduced to sourdough (wait until I spring the real starter on her!)  Daves modified sour gives a batter bubbly and a finished bread fresh from the oven like a crumpet you want to smother butter all over.




Process:

Make Daves starter. Weight is estimated 950g of starter. Put in bowl and put cling film
over to prevent drying and leave for 3 weeks in the fridge.

Next take it out and make the bread dough but I used all the starter and subtracted 300g from the added bread flour in Daves recipe. I mix the ingredients in Daves recipe in a bowl and added the dry and wet on top of the starter and mixed it in. Dig in the mixing spoon into the starter and stretch it apart to break it up and mix in to a dry batter or wet dough consistency. You can break the starter with your hands of you want to get messy but I wasn't in the mood so just spoon stretched and broke it up. When fully encorporated I gave the mix a good stirring with the spoon on full power (all sorts of muscles will ache).

Then I recovered the bowl in plastic wrap and set it aside in a 25C box to rise. Sourdough styles take a lot longer to rise. Mine was close to 5 hours to reactivate, rise and get to a bubbly dry batter consistency. Then punch down with another stirring and then onto baking trays or I'd you only have tins then tins it is (1/4 full will make non yeast risen loaf style or 1/2 will rise to the top.) Then back in the box to double.

Baking modification. To bake start with a cold non-preheated oven. Bread onto lower trays of electric or upper trays if gas. Start the oven on 180C and bake for 45 minutes. If tins take out the loaves 15 or more minutes before end of bake and put back on the racks without tins. Tap test if that's all you got for done ness. You won't burn at this temperatur easily and you should have a nice golden brown. Time will also depend on loaf shape and loaf size so adjust and take notes accordingly.

Slices to a thin crisp crust, and a uniform slightly moist crumpetnlike interior. The salt in the recipe and dribbling with butter will make you want to reach for honey and have a full experience right away. Neighbours love them and giving some awayakes for nice Neighbours.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead (3/6/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> Process:
> 
> Make Daves starter. Weight is estimated 950g of starter. Put in bowl and put cling film
> over to prevent drying and leave for 3 weeks in the fridge.
> ...



Interesting.. No kneading? And a cool bake. 

I've been doing some laying with my 2 day dough and sourdough as well. I'll post my results soon...


----------



## Katherine (3/6/10)

Airgead said:


> I did it.. I made croissants...
> 
> 
> Dough rolled and cut ready for rolling.
> ...



Im sure you will nail it next time... they look like broche on the inside!


----------



## Airgead (3/6/10)

Katie said:


> Im sure you will nail it next time... they look like broche on the inside!



I think the problem was my rolling pin. You roll the dough out into a long rectangle and my pin was shorter than the width of the rectangle so I had to roll it out lengthways and crossways. I think that is what mashed all the layers together.

A new, larger pin is now on order. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Katherine (3/6/10)

Airgead said:


> I think the problem was my rolling pin. You roll the dough out into a long rectangle and my pin was shorter than the width of the rectangle so I had to roll it out lengthways and crossways. I think that is what mashed all the layers together.
> 
> A new, larger pin is now on order.
> 
> ...



How much butter and what kind of butter did you use?


----------



## pdilley (3/6/10)

Airgead said:


> Interesting.. No kneading? And a cool bake.
> 
> I've been doing some laying with my 2 day dough and sourdough as well. I'll post my results soon...



I actually put the starter through a full table slap-a-thon knead session but the rest was all stirring to keep the crumb soft with such an aged and well developed starter.

Cool bake helps develop the slightly moist crumpet like crumb. Reminds me of Ethiopean injera but not as moist. Toasts yum and I ate almost an entire loaf with butter and jam 

Full loaves might need closer to an hour if a lot of dough in the loaf but I've done close to 900g loaf so I'll test that next as I'm close to running out of loaves 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead (3/6/10)

Katie said:


> How much butter and what kind of butter did you use?



It was 200g of organic, unsalted butter from our local hippy food shop. European... Danish I think.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead (3/6/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> I actually put the starter through a full table slap-a-thon knead session but the rest was all stirring to keep the crumb soft with such an aged and well developed starter.
> 
> Cool bake helps develop the slightly moist crumpet like crumb. Reminds me of Ethiopean injera but not as moist. Toasts yum and I ate almost an entire loaf with butter and jam
> 
> ...



Do you get much oven spring with the cool bake? I'm getting awesome oven spring with my mini baguettes at the moment. My last batch are superb (pictures to follow what I pull my finger out and get them off the camera).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (3/6/10)

Awesome spring. On the first test loaves I went small at 1/4 tin fill. These rose on bake so much they ripped (I should have cut steam release slits but didn't).

I'm going to try again. I was amazed at the uniformity of the gas distribution in the crumb. No giant holes lots of small holes of uniform size and tiny tiny holes as fill in the crumb.

Now to replicate. If you remember I used the first bread starter left over 300g or so to seed the second starter which spent the three weeks in the fridge. Toast is lovely. With all the butter and nice uniform bubbles and crisp crunch that uniformly collapses on biting I thought this would make awesome French style fried crutons -- if only any loaves weren't eaten and left long enough to get relegated to cruton production.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead (6/6/10)

An absolute orgy of baking last weekend. A double batch of my 2 day bread plus Ciabbata.

Every spare surface in the kitchen covered with rising bread.




Spelt mini baguettes and rolls






Wholemeal loaves




One looked so good we ate it then and there with dinner







And Ciabbata. Texture is perfect and they are starting to look a bit like a proper ciabbata but there's still a way to go.




The days efforts (minus the one we ate with dinner)


----------



## Duff (6/6/10)

Wow.


----------



## pdilley (6/6/10)

I'm excited about your ciabbatas Dave.


----------



## craig maher (12/7/10)

Sourdough rye baked yesterday inspired by all the great bread pics in this thread............








Cheers,

Craig


----------



## drsmurto (28/7/10)

Made ciabatta on the weekend.

Left the dough to prove for an extra 2 hours and it was climbing out of the bowl.

Much harder to handle than regular bread dough, very sticky. Covered the kitchen (and myself) in flour.

Made 3 loaves and they turned out very well, so much so that i cut up one of them into 3 portions to use for rolls at work.

Here is one just before being toasted. Nice crust, plenty of the typical holes in the bread and light in texture. 

I need to squish them down a little bit more before baking but other than that i am pretty happy with it. Hoping to make individual rolls instead of loaves this weekend.


----------



## Katherine (28/7/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Made ciabatta on the weekend.
> 
> Left the dough to prove for an extra 2 hours and it was climbing out of the bowl.
> 
> ...



looks fantastic...


----------



## Airgead (28/7/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Made ciabatta on the weekend.
> 
> Left the dough to prove for an extra 2 hours and it was climbing out of the bowl.
> 
> ...



Very nice. My last batch came out pretty well too. Its the extra long first rising that does it. It really needs to be climbing out of the bowl to get that open texture.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## drsmurto (28/7/10)

I did the first rise overnight, then added the rest of the flour/water etc the next morning and let that prove for 4 hours. Shaped and let i sit another 30 mins before bunging in the oven.

Proving room is the lounge room next to the fire :lol:


----------



## Airgead (26/8/10)

Been a while since I posted anything here. 

Foccacia with rosemary and smoked sea salt - 








And some fancy looking (but really simple) fougase -


----------



## drsmurto (27/8/10)

Just ordered Dough and Crust. 

Couldn't decide which one to buy so bought both. :lol:


----------



## bonj (27/8/10)

Brilliant, DrSmurto! They complement each other really well. If I had to recommend only one, I'd recommend Dough to a beginner, but by the look of your bread above, you're probably right in getting both.


----------



## drsmurto (27/8/10)

Was wondering if there was too much overlap but on closing perusal it would appear one is for beginners and then one more advanced?

I fired up the sourdough culture this morning after a few months hiatus focussing on the ciabatta.

Was considering doing a 2 day ferment prior to mixing with the remaining dough to make the loaf. 1st 24 hours at room temp, 2nd 24 hours in the fridge. I recall others doing that just not sure of the reasoning behind it.


----------



## bonj (28/8/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Was wondering if there was too much overlap but on closing perusal it would appear one is for beginners and then one more advanced?
> 
> I fired up the sourdough culture this morning after a few months hiatus focussing on the ciabatta.
> 
> Was considering doing a 2 day ferment prior to mixing with the remaining dough to make the loaf. 1st 24 hours at room temp, 2nd 24 hours in the fridge. I recall others doing that just not sure of the reasoning behind it.


I wouldn't really call either of them a beginners book, but for the beginner, Dough offers more instant results as Crust has a lot of breads that require building cultures. Both are fine for the beginner, and I actually got Crust first. Dough just has more recipes that you can make same day. I haven't done any sourdough yet.


----------



## drsmurto (30/8/10)

Dug out my mothers old bread making tin and made a sourdough loaf.

Went 50/50 wholemeal/white. Did the prooving in the car as the sun was out and it rose like a champ. Had a chat to my mother the day before and asked her about that. It was her tried and tested method, drive the car around the front of the house and park it in the sun. Heated up beautifully even in the middle of winter.

The crust was perfect and the crumb pretty damn good. I ended up slicing off the crust and ate it, no need for butter or anything. Yum! The sourdough culture is really tasting/smelling good after nearly a year.


----------



## bonj (30/8/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Dug out my mothers old bread making tin and made a sourdough loaf.
> 
> Went 50/50 wholemeal/white. Did the prooving in the car as the sun was out and it rose like a champ. Had a chat to my mother the day before and asked her about that. It was her tried and tested method, drive the car around the front of the house and park it in the sun. Heated up beautifully even in the middle of winter.
> 
> The crust was perfect and the crumb pretty damn good. I ended up slicing off the crust and ate it, no need for butter or anything. Yum! The sourdough culture is really tasting/smelling good after nearly a year.


Awesome. My sister down in Melbourne does the same thing with her breads rising in the car. No need for that here. I just put mine in the microwave (turned off) and it rises nicely.


----------



## drsmurto (14/9/10)

Dough arrived last week and i flicked through it. Some nice recipes but there wasnt really anything in there to change my thinking on how i was doing things or why i was ended up with bread a tad too dense.

Then i watched the DVD that came with it and if i was in a cartoon a light globe would have appeared above my head. Watching him hand knead the dough and seeing it go from a sticky mess to a silken dough really hit home. 

Richard was born and bre(a)d in Brittany in the NW of France where i spent 6 months studying - a loose connection if ever there was one but i am claiming it!

Really happy with the flavour and crust of my sourdough so I am doing a number of things right but i need to throw away the mixer and go back to kneading by hand. The folding after the proving step is also something i am not doing well.

The last 3 loaves have used ~15% rye and the extra dimension it adds to the bread is the same reason i use it in beer so often. :icon_drool2:


----------



## brettprevans (14/9/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Dough arrived last week.....


Ive got that and by coincidence I made the french doughnuts on the weekend



not a great picture but they were delicious. light, fluffy and very hard to stop eating, esp once you stick some jam inside. they coloured a bit much but thats also cause i had to use sunflower oil instead of peanut oil because the missus is alergic to peanuts. 

other than that they were great.

Ive tried a few other recipes out of dough and they all work well.


----------



## Airgead (14/9/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Then i watched the DVD that came with it and if i was in a cartoon a light globe would have appeared above my head. Watching him hand knead the dough and seeing it go from a sticky mess to a silken dough really hit home.



Yep.. the DVD was the real lightbulb moment for me as well.


----------



## Airgead (14/9/10)

Just realised I had a bunch of bread pics I haven't posted yet...

Some brown tin loaves I did for sandwiches -










A very nice onion and garlic flatbread I made from some leftover ferment




Some rye tin loaves




Seeded brown loaves with oats




I did some really nice spelt rolls as well but can't find the photos.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead (28/9/10)

Since I chucked my job in I have had plenty of baking time. I've been getting back into sourdough - 

Four really nice brown sourdough loaves - 







Some sourdough spelt fruit loaves (yum)







An attempt at some sourdough seeded rolls. They dried out too much during the long rising so they have come out looking not the best. I call them my turdpedo rolls. I'm not sure that rolls and sourdough are a good mix. I'll have to work on that.




And some creative ways to use up some leftover sourdough starter - number one is a flatbread brushed with olive oil then sprinkled with salt and za'tar. The second is a flatbread brushed with honey and sprinkled with almonds.







And the missus has been baking bickies (Anzacs and lemon & coconut) -


----------



## Airgead (13/12/10)

I think I have this bread thing pretty well sussed now - 

Ciabbata rolls




Sourdough


----------



## drsmurto (13/12/10)

What changes do you mak between a full ciabatta loaf (and i notice you are finally spelling it correctly  ) and individual rolls?

Is it just the baking time?

They are looking as good as always mate. My dream is to bake all my bread myself and not buy any. Time and laziness so far have put pay to that.


----------



## Airgead (13/12/10)

DrSmurto said:


> What changes do you mak between a full ciabatta loaf (and i notice you are finally spelling it correctly  ) and individual rolls?
> 
> Is it just the baking time?
> 
> They are looking as good as always mate. My dream is to bake all my bread myself and not buy any. Time and laziness so far have put pay to that.



Pretty much just the cooking time. Same dough, same handling process, same shaping (just into smaller blobs).

And yeah... mu spelling sucks... but my bread looks cool so all is forgiven... right?


----------



## drsmurto (13/12/10)

Airgead said:


> And yeah... mu spelling sucks... but my bread looks cool so all is forgiven... right?



You are way out in front with all this porno bread (and food) pics! :lol:


----------



## Airgead (15/12/10)

DrSmurto said:


> You are way out in front with all this porno bread (and food) pics! :lol:



Made a big double batch of ciabatta today, 4 loaves and 16 rolls - 






















Cheers
Dave


----------



## Tim F (16/1/11)

I just made a couple of loaves in the wood oven to use some of the heat after a pizza session.

These are low-knead sourdough with about 50% whole sprouted rye grain, fresh apricots off my tree, and a bit of honey. Not the neatest slashes I've ever done but it tastes great. I cut it still warm enough to melt some butter... Don't like the chances both loaves will make it through the night


----------



## Tim F (15/6/11)

Time for more bread porn... I just made a few loaves of 50/50 wholemeal & white flour sourdough. Does anyone have their own signature slash? I'm trying to figure out a good one, its tricky cos it has to let the bread expand evenly but not let it sag, and it has to look good. I quite like the approach of having the ears down each side but think I might prefer it with just one row down the middle/top. 





I tried another experiment with lots of little ones but that doesn't work too well - you can see they stick together and it's hard to make them look even enough.





And a bit of a messy boule 




Still I got a nice light crumb given it was sourdough, wholemeal and low knead!


----------



## drsmurto (15/6/11)

That bread was low knead and wholemeal? 

It had a superb crumb and crust.

My latest in my new proving basket


----------



## Tim F (15/6/11)

Yeah I think it's the overnight rise with wetter sourdough that helps with the gluten development so much - I probably only kneaded that a dozen times if that.

Nice loaf there - I need to get me one of those proving baskets some time. Taste good?


----------



## Airgead (16/6/11)

DrSmurto said:


> That bread was low knead and wholemeal?
> 
> It had a superb crumb and crust.
> 
> ...



Is that one of those plastic baskets? I have a couple of those but found that no matter how much I floured them the dough stuck really badly. I suspect its because of the long 12+ hour rises needed for sourdough.

What's your secret for getting the bread out of them? I current line them with floured cloth and that works pretty well.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Katherine (16/6/11)

DrSmurto said:


> That bread was low knead and wholemeal?
> 
> It had a superb crumb and crust.
> 
> ...




I love the proving basket marks... YUMMMMM


----------



## drsmurto (16/6/11)

Long proving? 

I prove the starter for 24 hours before adding it to the main loaf but the rest is relatively short.

I do the first proving step in the stainless steel bowl i 'knead' in. I let the machine do all the kneading, 10-15 mins is about right. 

1-2 hours it has doubled in size and is no longer sticky so i take it out, fold it a few times a la Crust/Dough and then put it into the plastic basket which i first spray with oil then dust with flour.

3-4 hours later the dough goes in the oven after slashing via a peel onto a pre-heated pizza stone.

Taste wise mine is similar to TimFs, plenty of sourdough flavour and the crust and crumb is lovely. I need to work on smaller loaves and better slashing but i am very happy with how they are coming out now on a regular basis.

The plastic prooving basket (and lame, couche and dough scraper) comes from Home Bread


----------



## Tim F (16/6/11)

Cheers for the link, I've been looking for a dough scraper for a while!

One thing I do that I think makes a big difference to my bread is bake it in an old metal roasting dish with a lid. I preheat a pizza stone first, put the loaf in the dish, slash it, then put the dish in the oven on the pizza stone. I usually cook with the lid on for 30 minutes then with the lid off for another 15 or until it's done. Heaps easier than using a steam pan or spraying water in the oven and you get that really nice shiny look on the crust and better expansion.

I've been planning on making a better version of this though. You can get big sandstone tiles from Bunnings for a few bucks that are fine for baking on. I was going to get one of them and make up a sheet metal open bottomed box that fits on top of it, so I could slide the loaf onto the preheated stone and just drop the box over the whole thing.


----------



## Airgead (16/6/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Long proving?
> 
> I prove the starter for 24 hours before adding it to the main loaf but the rest is relatively short.
> 
> ...



Wow. You must have a more active starter than I do. Mine needs a good 12-18 hours to get a good rise. Mind you I do keep it in the fridge until I am ready to bake so its not in a really active state when I use it.

I might see if I can adjust things a little.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Tim F (16/6/11)

Yeah same here, I use half a cup of starter per loaf and it usually takes a full day or overnight to rise properly.


----------



## drsmurto (16/6/11)

I use 375g of starter that has been actively bubbling away at room temperature for 24h. To this is added 500g flour, 250mL water and 8g of salt.

When it is mixed with more flour its raring to go, much like yeast starters for beer. 1-2 hours later the dough has doubled in size.

Slow rising gives different results which i may now have to resort too since my 'free time' for brewing and baking is now approx. 5% of what it used to be. 

I like slow rising of pizza dough in the fridge for 24h prior to use so maybe i need to try that for sourdough. I doubt after 24h in the fridge it would be easy to pull the dough out of the proving basket though.


----------



## Tim F (16/6/11)

That's amazing, you must have some kick ass wild yeast floating around Mt Torrens! Even using a really active starter I don't see any action at all for a few hours.


----------



## drsmurto (16/6/11)

Tim F said:


> That's amazing, you must have some kick ass wild yeast floating around Mt Torrens! Even using a really active starter I don't see any action at all for a few hours.



Didn't make the mother myself.

The mother came from a lady at work who is considered the sourdough queen.

She happily shares it with anyone who wants it. Earlier this year she shipped some of it down to Tassie!

Plus, if i do manage to neglect it i can always get some of the original.

Happy to pass some on to you Tim if you want to do a comparison.


----------



## drsmurto (20/6/11)

Had more time to think about this and made another few sourdough loaves on the weekend and have come to the conclusion i am actually prooving the dough too fast.

My culture is obviously very healthy but the sour tang seems to be decreasing each time i use it. 

I'll slow down the first proof to an overnight in the fridge to try and get more of the flavour i am after.

Crust and crumb are great, just need some more of the strong sourdough flavour.


----------



## Tim F (24/6/11)

I'd be keen to try some of your starter some time. You might get a slower rise by just using less starter too?


----------



## drsmurto (24/6/11)

Had some bread made by the lady who gave me the starter and it has a great sour taste/smell. She slow rises overnight in the fridge as many of you do.

So... i have my starter bubbling away at home and will make up the dough tonight and allow it to slow rise overnight.

Also made some pizza dough which is slowly rising in the fridge ready for tonight.


----------



## Phoney (24/6/11)

Do you guys use breadmakers? If so, any recommended brands/models?

I've heard the Panasonic SD-257 is the ducks nuts..


----------



## drsmurto (24/6/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> Do you guys use breadmakers? If so, any recommended brands/models?
> 
> I've heard the Panasonic SD-257 is the ducks nuts..



No. I use a mixer to knead my dough but the bread is baked in an oven on a pizza stone.

I do have a breadmaker for baking sandwich bread - wouldn't have bought one personally but the MIL thought i wanted one  so i have a breville IKON which is very nice and i do use it for making pizza dough but i wouldn't have spent the coin. It does have a manual function which might be useful for lengthy sourdough prooving.

If you don't have a beater/mixer I'd spend the money on that (unless you subscribe to the no knead crew). It gets far more of a workout at my place for kneading/mixing/beating/whipping (all the good things  ) I have this one - Link. It's basic but does the job nicely.


----------



## Airgead (24/6/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> Do you guys use breadmakers? If so, any recommended brands/models?
> 
> I've heard the Panasonic SD-257 is the ducks nuts..



All mixed and kneaded by hand here. Baked on an oven on granite slabs.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## bonj (24/6/11)

I mix and knead by hand and bake in the oven on pizza stones.


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## Margrethe (24/6/11)

So where does one get a good sourdough starter? I've had two before, and both weren't real flash. 

I'd love some help on getting my sourdough better! Mine doesn't look anywhere near as flash as the ones you've posted! I'm super jealous!


----------



## Tim F (27/6/11)

What's your process now Margrethe? What are your results like?


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## jakethedog (27/6/11)

Margrethe said:


> So where does one get a good sourdough starter? I've had two before, and both weren't real flash.
> 
> I'd love some help on getting my sourdough better! Mine doesn't look anywhere near as flash as the ones you've posted! I'm super jealous!




I made my own. Tastes nice and sour - have been using it for a year. Took about 2-3 weeks to make it.


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## Airgead (27/6/11)

jakethedog said:


> I made my own. Tastes nice and sour - have been using it for a year. Took about 2-3 weeks to make it.



Me too. Fred is about 12 years old now and does a great job.

Takes about 2-3 weeks to get a starter going or you can cheat and get some off someone who already has one. They can even be posted and still survive well.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley (27/6/11)

I use Greg Lehey's method. It helps since he lives across the road. He was aiming to replicate a German Graubrot. I had light rye flour from a health food shop. Unfortunately I have used all my rye flour and don't have any more, nor could I source any cereal Rye to make my own flour. When I get back into town off the train, all the local shops are closed including the shop Greg gets his flour from. I'll have to find something in the Melbourne CBD and carry it back or get Greg to pick some up for me next time he is in town.

Dave, I should get you to send me some of your starter to compare. I got mine from Greg but its not as sour as I like my sourdough breads 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Airgead (27/6/11)

Brewer Pete said:


> Dave, I should get you to send me some of your starter to compare. I got mine from Greg but its not as sour as I like my sourdough breads
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



Ask and yea shall receive.. or more to the point, PM me an address and yea shall receive.

Cheers
Dave


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## [email protected] (29/6/11)

Nothing like hot bread on a cold morning

2/3 white
1/6 whole wheat
1/6 rye


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## redbeard (29/6/11)

Ive had a starter going for 3+ weeks, have done several loaves (using white flour), all sour tasting but they are dense like they havennt risen enough, not like the lighter commercial sourdough loaves. I let the last one "rise" for 48 hours on the benchtop, it was the best of the previous but still chewy. Does my starter just need more time to grow ?

Also where do you get (cheap) rye & spelt flour ?

cheers


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## Airgead (30/6/11)

redbeard said:


> Ive had a starter going for 3+ weeks, have done several loaves (using white flour), all sour tasting but they are dense like they havennt risen enough, not like the lighter commercial sourdough loaves. I let the last one "rise" for 48 hours on the benchtop, it was the best of the previous but still chewy. Does my starter just need more time to grow ?
> 
> Also where do you get (cheap) rye & spelt flour ?
> 
> cheers



A lot of commercial "sourdoughs" use yeast as well as a starter to speed up the process and get a lighter result so I wouldn't judge too much based on commercial examples. They also tend to use a lot of chemical "dough improver" to lighten things as well.

48 hours is a long time. Maybe its not an under rising problem but an under kneading problem. If the glutens aren't developed enough, the dough doesn't have the strength to hold a good crumb structure and it will collapse to form a very dense bread.

I buy my spelt and rye in 5 of 12.5 kilo sacks from demeter, either straight from them or through the wholesale arm of Honest to Goodness.

Cheers
Dave


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## seamad (2/7/11)

Not as sexy as other loaves here (cheat bread made in machine). This is my schwartzbread made from spent grain from my last schwartzbier. I give most of the spent grain to my local baker, she wants me to drink more as it has become very popular. They make a couple of different sourdoughs, really good, will try and hit her up for some of their starter as a trade. I think their starter is about 6 years old now, I think the older the starter the better it rises and tastes.

cheers
sean


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## Margrethe (2/7/11)

I got a starter from a friend, and it worked lovely for her- but it just won't work for me. 

Loaves are coming out dense, with a real nasty sour smell (not that lovely yeasty sour smell). I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong- and can only attribute it to the starter being bad somehow. I've followed my friends instructions to the letter, but I just can't get a nice loaf!! 

I've made thousands of loaves of bread in the past- just can't seem to get this sourdough right. Its bloody frustrating! I make a mean pizza dough, great loaves of ordinary style breads...its just the sourdough thats gmf!


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## kocken42 (12/7/11)

I am really getting hooked on bread! I think yeast and fermentation science is without a doubt my calling in life!

Made this loaf the other day, a rustic multi-grain loaf...











and tonight I made this work of art...a delicious cinnamon log!











Not sure what to make next. I'm thinking of a turkish bread!


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## Deebo (12/7/11)

How would I use some spent grain in a bread recipe? Just mix it in with the dough and do everything as normal? (I have no use for all my spent grain but using some in bread sounds nice)


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## seamad (13/7/11)

As the spent grain has some moisture just cut back your water.
I just make standard white loaf and @ 20 % less water with between 150-250 g spent grain:

300ml water
650g flour
200g spent grain
tsp salt
tbsp sugar
2 slugs evoo
2 tbsp milk powder
tsp bread improver
1.75 tsp yeast

Just check dough after 10 minutes of kneading for moisture content and adjust.

voila

Also add @ 50-75 grams to my pizza dough recipe ( for 2 pizzas)

Nothing better than eating a pizza washed down with the beer made with the same grain !

cheers

sean


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## seamad (14/7/11)

I find that the darker beers produce the best bread (most flavour), I do like dark beers though. Having said that the pale beers are also pretty good too in bread.


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## Deebo (16/7/11)

seamad said:


> As the spent grain has some moisture just cut back your water.
> I just make standard white loaf and @ 20 % less water with between 150-250 g spent grain:



Gave it a shot today.. She may not be pretty, but tasted pretty good.





The dough looked pretty dry when I was kneading it (I BIAB so squeeze a bit of water out) so I added a bit more water.
Not sure if it was too much water or I didnt cook it long enough but the bread was still a bit sticky?


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## seamad (18/7/11)

If it was a bit sticky just cook a bit more , makes a fairly heavy loaf so needs some cooking.
With my bread machine I check the dough after @ 10 minutes, give the dough a squeeze, then add a bit more flour /water as needed. All flour is different, as is the moisture in the spent grain, so you need to get a feel for the right consistency.
cheers
sean


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## drsmurto (10/10/11)

Had a bakefest over the long weekend. Kitchen was covered in flour as was I.

Made some smaller ciabattas for sandwiches, more sourdough (rye) and finally had a crack at baguettes. Happy with how they turned out although i should have shown more patience and let the baguettes prove for a tad longer. I used the poolish method for the baguettes from Crust.


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## cubbie (10/10/11)

Rippa!

That is a lot of bread to eat.


----------



## drsmurto (3/12/11)

The more i make ciabatta the better i get at it.

This batch had a lot more holes in the crumb.


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## drsmurto (8/1/12)

Had another bakethon today B) 

Demolished one of the tomato, garlic and basil breads for lunch, very tasty.

Wholemeal poppy seed rolls for lunches





Small ciabatta rolls





Sourdough (white/wholemeal/rye)





Tomato, garlic and basil bread from the book Dough


----------



## Pennywise (10/1/12)

Anyone got a good sourdough culture they'd like to swap for a couple of beers? I have a relo in Sydney who loves the sourdoughs and I think she's having issues with making a decent starter/culture, or she may just be unhappy with her results because she's just starting out and hasn't got the character of an older culture. Dunno, I don't know a lot about sourdoughs, I just told her I'd ask around here.

DrS, your bread pics always make me hungry :icon_drool2:


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## seamad (10/1/12)

I made my starter along the lines of hugh fearnley- whittingsall ? The river cottage guy. I ran some raw wheat through my grain mill, added water and a stick of rhubatb. Would post a link but on my ereader so cant. Fred has come along well and ive given away a few bits of him. If she cant grow one herself can post one , should survive the trip.
Cheers
Sean


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## Airgead (10/1/12)

Pennywise said:


> Anyone got a good sourdough culture they'd like to swap for a couple of beers? I have a relo in Sydney who loves the sourdoughs and I think she's having issues with making a decent starter/culture, or she may just be unhappy with her results because she's just starting out and hasn't got the character of an older culture. Dunno, I don't know a lot about sourdoughs, I just told her I'd ask around here.
> 
> DrS, your bread pics always make me hungry :icon_drool2:



As it happens I have a bunch of leftover starter (about 17 years old) waiting to be parcelled out and given away....

Shoot me a PM with the details.

Cheers
Dave


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## Pennywise (10/1/12)

Awesome, cheers guys. Airgead will shoot a PM off now.


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## Airgead (10/1/12)

Pennywise said:


> Awesome, cheers guys. Airgead will shoot a PM off now.



No problem. I have a bunch of starter at the moment (not eating as much bread over the holidays) so if anyone else wants a lump, let me know and I'll send some out. I've sent it through the mail before and it seems to survive pretty well. Comes with full care and feeding instructions.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Katherine (12/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Had another bakethon today B)
> 
> Demolished one of the tomato, garlic and basil breads for lunch, very tasty.
> 
> ...




awesomness


----------



## jakethedog (13/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Had another bakethon today B)
> 
> Demolished one of the tomato, garlic and basil breads for lunch, very tasty.
> 
> ...


Looks fantastic. I am currently lunching on sourdough straight out of the oven. 

Do you add extra bread yeast to the sourdough or just the starter? I can only get a decent rise with starter if I do a plain white loaf. Adding rye/wholemeal or grains weighs it down.


----------



## Airgead (13/1/12)

jakethedog said:


> Looks fantastic. I am currently lunching on sourdough straight out of the oven.
> 
> Do you add extra bread yeast to the sourdough or just the starter? I can only get a decent rise with starter if I do a plain white loaf. Adding rye/wholemeal or grains weighs it down.



I just finished a sandwich made from my grain sourdough. I do wholemeal/rye/grain sourdoughs all the time (5 loaves a week). No extra yeast, just the starter and I get a good rise even with the really heavy grain doughs.

What's your method/recipe?

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto (13/1/12)

Adding rye and/or wholemeal etc does increase the rise time in my experience but a slow rise is part of the sourdough process. 

Too fast a rise (as i discovered last year) results in a lighter loaf with less of the sourdough character. I very rarely make plain white sourdough, adding rye/wholemeal makes a much nicer yeast IMHO.

Like Airgead, i don't add any yeast. I build up the mother culture 24 hours beforehand by mixing in 1 cup of flour and 1 cup of water and allowing the mixture to sit at room temperature for 24 hours. Add more flour and water to it, knead it and continue as normal for beadmaking.

@Airgead - have you ever tried drying out your culture to be able to send it or are you sending the sarter as a thick dough? I'm interested in doing a culture swap if you are.


----------



## jakethedog (13/1/12)

I do get a rise from only starter, just not nearly as much as when using baker's yeast.
My recipes vary depending on what book/internet site am reading and also on my time. 
I have spent all day mixing/ kneading/ stetching/folding/ shaping proofing and made decent loafs and disaster pizza looking loafs. If I am short of time I do my 3-5 min loaf (1,2,3 method).
The 1,2,3 method generally produces a great loaf every time. Other methods vary in shape depending if I get the hydration right.
1,2,3 method is:
1 cup starter and 1 cup water, 2 teaspoons salt and 3 cups flour. - Mix well. This takes 2-3 mins all up.
Rest overnight.
Tip on floured surface and fold into roughly a round shape. (1-2 mins)
Bake 40 mins.


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## drsmurto (13/1/12)

Jake - happy to give you some of my sourdough mother with the tips i was given when i received the mother from a colleague.

Your recipe/method looks like it is missing a step or 2 for sourdough. It's like you have taken a regular bread yeast recipe and subbed in sourdough culture which, unless you make a big starter prior, won't work (in my experience). Not having a go at you, just my thoughts - 2 cents and all that.

My method, based on discussions with several of the posters in this thread and reading of the books 'Dough' and 'Crust'.

Take sourdough mother out of fridge and tip 90% of it into a bowl.

Add 1 cup flour, 1 cup water, mix, cover and leave at room temperature for 24h. At the same time add 1-2 tbsp each of flour and water to the left over mother, leave for 2 hours at room temperature and then back in the fridge.

After 24h add 500g flour, 10g salt and water - how much depends on what flour you use but i add it in parts to the mixture and start kneading (machine). As it comes together you can ad more water or flour as required. Normally approx 250g of water (yes, i weigh out water - it's more accurate unless you have a burette). I sometimes add some olive oil to the mix (50g max) for something different.

Knead for 10-15 mins until smooth.

If in a hurry i then let it prove for 2-3 hours at room temperature but 95% of the time i will prove it in the fridge for 24-48hours.

After first proving, on a floured bench, fold it several times and form into whatever shape you desire and let prove until almost doubled in size (this step can take 3-6 hours depending on flour mix, room temperature and humidity). 

Tip onto a floured peel, slash cuts int the top and slide onto a pizza stone in an oven pre-heated to 250C (normally takes at least 1 hour to reach that temperature and get the stone fully heated).

Spray/mist lots of water into the oven and then shut the door. Bake for 15 mins at 250C, turn fown to 220C and leave it another 15-20 mins depending on how dark you like your bread, i like mine very dark.

One of no doubt 100s of methods but i thought i would put it out there as I am happy with the results i am getting.

Cheers
DrSmurto - I buy my flour from Gaganis bros near Hindmarsh Stadium, ~$14 for 10kg of white flour, can't recall the cost for the rye and wholemeal flours but these are just flours, not the prepackaged bread mixes which contain all manner of additonal ingredients/chemicals.


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## jakethedog (13/1/12)

Cheers Doc. It does seem like I need to rest/ferment longer and use more of my starter. 
Do you think the origin of the starter makes a difference? My starter is 18 months old and just one I made myself from rye flour/white flour and water. It took 2 weeks to smell good. It had a strong acetone smell for a while but I pushed through. If the type of starter makes a difference then I might take you up on the starter offer. I work in the Adelaide Hills in Woodside.


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## Airgead (14/1/12)

jakethedog said:


> I do get a rise from only starter, just not nearly as much as when using baker's yeast.
> My recipes vary depending on what book/internet site am reading and also on my time.
> I have spent all day mixing/ kneading/ stetching/folding/ shaping proofing and made decent loafs and disaster pizza looking loafs. If I am short of time I do my 3-5 min loaf (1,2,3 method).
> The 1,2,3 method generally produces a great loaf every time. Other methods vary in shape depending if I get the hydration right.
> ...




My Method - 

* 400g Starter
* 800g baker's flour
* 650g water
* 20g salt

* Mix into a dough then kneed until smooth and elastic.
* Form into a ball and place in a floured bowl for 1 hour
* Turn out onto a floured surface, re-form into a ball and place back into floured bowl for another hour
* Turn out onto floured surface, divide in two and shape into loaves. Place on tray or in basket. Cover with a cloth and leave to rise. The rise will take anywhere between 4 and 24 hours depending on the temperature.
* Heat oven to as high as it will go.
* Slash tops of loaves and place in oven.
* Bake for 5 min then turn temp down to 220 and bake for another 20-25 mins.
* Cool and eat.

If I use wholemeal flour I usually throw in 200g bakers and 600g wholemeal and up the water to 680g. If I add grains, I add 2 cups of mixed grains and a touch of extra water.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead (14/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> @Airgead - have you ever tried drying out your culture to be able to send it or are you sending the sarter as a thick dough? I'm interested in doing a culture swap if you are.



I usually send out as a dough. Survives pretty well that way. Never tried drying it.

Happy to arrange a swap.

Cheers
Dave


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## jakethedog (17/1/12)

I am getting a bit frustrated with my soughdough breadmaking. Made a loaf today if you can call it that! Fermented the starter with 1 cup water, 1 cup flour and left for 24 hrs. Added flour with a bit of rye and wholemeal. Kneaded for 15 mins. Rolled into a ball which held its shape nicely. Left for 3 hrs (28 degrees inside) whereby it doubled in size. Folded a few times and shaped into a batard with a bit more flour, again it held its shape. I put it in a large plastic container with glad wrap boxes running either side so it did not go flat. Let rise for 4 hrs
When it came to putting it on the peel it lost its shape and went very flat.
Could it be that I have over proofed? Or should I have used more flour to make the dough stiffer?


----------



## Airgead (17/1/12)

jakethedog said:


> I am getting a bit frustrated with my soughdough breadmaking. Made a loaf today if you can call it that! Fermented the starter with 1 cup water, 1 cup flour and left for 24 hrs. Added flour with a bit of rye and wholemeal. Kneaded for 15 mins. Rolled into a ball which held its shape nicely. Left for 3 hrs (28 degrees inside) whereby it doubled in size. Folded a few times and shaped into a batard with a bit more flour, again it held its shape. I put it in a large plastic container with glad wrap boxes running either side so it did not go flat. Let rise for 4 hrs
> When it came to putting it on the peel it lost its shape and went very flat.
> Could it be that I have over proofed? Or should I have used more flour to make the dough stiffer?



Could be over risen por under kneeded. To little kneeding or using a weak flour mreans the dough isnt strong enough to support its self and will collapse.

I's also rise longer and cooler. Sourdough is really needs a long slow rise to develop the flavours. I ruse mine for at least 10 hours in the summer and 18-24 in the winter.

Cheers
Dave


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## Deebo (17/1/12)

Quick question (not technically bread.. but close enough):
What would make pizza dough break easily when stretched and not look nice and smooth?

I normaly make pizza every friday (have one of those electric pizza cookers).

Recipe I have always used
4 cups flour (use 00 flour molini flour from woolies)
1.5 cups warm water
teaspoon of sugar
packet of yeast
occasionaly a bit of olive oil and salt

Whack it in the bread maker and let it do its thing for 2 and a half hours.

Have always liked the pizza but watching youtube videos their dough seems a lot smoother and to stretch a lot more without breaking.. so wondering if theres anything I should try?
(SWMBO has a kitchenaid that I have tried using the dough hook on a couple of times but the resulting dough seems pretty much the same with a bit more work)

eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...oe_j-0gwE#t=61s if I tried this with my dough it would just break


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## Airgead (18/1/12)

Deebo said:


> Quick question (not technically bread.. but close enough):
> What would make pizza dough break easily when stretched and not look nice and smooth?
> 
> I normaly make pizza every friday (have one of those electric pizza cookers).
> ...



To get that really strong, stretchy dough you need to use a strong flour. The 00 flour we get here isn't a strong flour so it won't give you enough gluten to do the stretchy dough. Its designed for pasta not bread. There are speciality 00 flours that are strong flours (the 00 refers to the fineness of the grind) and are used for breads. Look at the protein content on the pack. You want over 12%.

use a mix of 00 and a strong bread flour. Keep your hydration at around 70% (use 70% of the weight of the flour as the weight of the water). Knead it really well then let it rest for 1/2 hour or so. Bingo. Stretchy dough.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## drsmurto (18/1/12)

jakethedog said:


> Cheers Doc. It does seem like I need to rest/ferment longer and use more of my starter.
> Do you think the origin of the starter makes a difference? My starter is 18 months old and just one I made myself from rye flour/white flour and water. It took 2 weeks to smell good. It had a strong acetone smell for a while but I pushed through. If the type of starter makes a difference then I might take you up on the starter offer. I work in the Adelaide Hills in Woodside.



I drive through Woodside on my way to and from work so could meet up no problems. I live in the thriving metropolis that is Mt Torrens.

I'll build up the starter to be able to give you a decent amount of it.

Acetone is not a great sign (suspect it's more likely to be ethyl acetate (nail polish remover) you are smelling). It suggests to me you have more acetobacter than lactobacillus in your starter. Lacto is what you want for the sour tang. Aceto is what turns wine into vinegar (which i also do  )


----------



## Deebo (18/1/12)

Airgead said:


> To get that really strong, stretchy dough you need to use a strong flour. The 00 flour we get here isn't a strong flour so it won't give you enough gluten to do the stretchy dough. Its designed for pasta not bread. There are speciality 00 flours that are strong flours (the 00 refers to the fineness of the grind) and are used for breads. Look at the protein content on the pack. You want over 12%.
> 
> use a mix of 00 and a strong bread flour. Keep your hydration at around 70% (use 70% of the weight of the flour as the weight of the water). Knead it really well then let it rest for 1/2 hour or so. Bingo. Stretchy dough.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tips Dave, will take a look around for some flours with higher protein and give that a shot (not sure what % that molini flour was as I chucked out the packet).


----------



## jakethedog (19/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Acetone is not a great sign (suspect it's more likely to be ethyl acetate (nail polish remover) you are smelling). It suggests to me you have more acetobacter than lactobacillus in your starter. Lacto is what you want for the sour tang. Aceto is what turns wine into vinegar (which i also do  )


I think you are right about the nail polish smell. It lasted for 4-5 days then smelt fruity, but that was 18 months ago. I would not say no to a bit of your starter. I'll pm you.


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## brettprevans (6/2/12)

rossemary and olive oil foccacia. using an olive oil dough recipe. :icon_drool2: 




personally i would have liked more rosemary but it was perfect amount for the kids. had it with homemade pumpkin soup. everything (except stock) was from the garden

edit: just noticed the packet in the beackground. nfi what whitewings rubbish the missus has been making. slack of her using packaged stuff! h34r:


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## seamad (11/3/12)

Made some sourdough for breakfast this morning with @ 100g spent grain ( maris otter and a little heritage Xtal). Started it Friday arvo, super tasty and sour. Added the spent grain at the sponge stage.






Cooked some devilled kidneys , mushies and spinach plus some eggs ( from our chooks who love the spent grain ).

Lunch time had some with some goat cheese my partner made and also some with fig jam I made a fortnight ago. Pretty happy with how it turned out.


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## freezkat (17/3/12)

This recipe has been changed to be made at home instead of a commercial bakery. The measurement of 18 grams of yeast was just forconvenience. I used a digital scale to weigh it. Using instant active yeast is very fast compared to compress fresh yeast. This recipe would otherwise take 2 days before you could bake. The original recipe called for 8 cups of Rye Flour and 4 cups of All- Purpose Flour.


Ingredients

18g Instant Active Yeast
1 quart warm water
2 tablespoons white sugar
4 cups all-purpose flour

6 cups white rye flour
6 cups all-purpose flour
2 tablespoons salt
1 teaspoon white sugar
2 cups warm water
8 tsp Vital Wheat Gluten

Directions

First, make the sourdough starter. Crumble the yeast into a large bowl. Whisk in 1 quart of warm water and 2 tablespoons of sugar until dissolved. The water should be just slightly warmer than body temperature. Gradually whisk in 4 cups of flour, continuing to mix until all lumps are gone. Cover with a dish towel, and let sit for 2 hours at room temperature.
After 2 hours, stir well, cover, and let stand one more hour. It will be a thin, light-colored sourdough which is then ready to use.
In a large bowl, stir together the rye flour, 4 cups of all-purpose flour, salt and sugar. Mix in the sourdough starter using a wooden spoon, then stir in 2 cups of warm water. I transfer the dough to a heavy duty stand mixer to mix the first couple of minutes, then it can't handle the heavy dough and I start using my hands by turning the dough out onto a floured surface. A clean countertop works best. Knead the dough, adding a few tablespoons of water at a time if it is too stiff. Fold the dough over, pull it apart, whatever you can do to get it kneaded up good. Total kneading time should be 15 to 20 minutes to get a smooth dough. Place the dough in a large bowl, cover, and let rise until doubled, 1 to 2 hours.
When the dough has risen, scrape it out of the bowl and back onto a floured surface. Knead for about 5 minutes. This is important to activate the gluten. Shape into 1 or 2 long loaves. Place on baking sheets, and let rise for about 1 hour, or until your finger leaves an impression when you poke the bread gently.
Preheat the oven to 425 degrees F (220 degrees C). Bake the bread for about 45 minutes for 2 loaves, 1 1/2 hours if you made one big loaf. Don't worry if the crust is dark. The bread will be delicious and so will the crust. Cool completely before cutting. I always freeze half.

Footnotes from Bob


Instead of 2 big round hearth loaves I formed these into 4 loafs and used breadpans. Also I placed a pyrex dish of water in the oven on a lower rack.


picture later


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## brewtas (4/4/12)

After wanting to make sourdough for years, I've just got a starter up and running.


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## brettprevans (26/11/12)

rye sourdough from sunday - very chewy crust and nice uniform crumb. Will make big airpockety bread next week


View attachment rye_recipe.pdf


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## djar007 (18/5/13)

Here are my efforts. From top left, sourdough multigrain and two white crusty loaves up front. All pretty plain recipes. But getting better everytime I do it. To do list is some plaited loaves and I am going to start using the spent grains.


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## DeGarre (23/5/13)

This was my humble go at the no-knead New York Times classic. My mind really boggled when it came out like that from the cast iron dutch oven with a lid. Great crust and nice chewy mouthfeel.


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## tricache (27/5/13)

Was going to give making a bread a try on the weekend, heard stout makes a really "interesting" bread.

Was being the key word, no siv so no sifting of flour ect would have make it pretty below average


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## NewtownClown (27/5/13)

Not at all. Its soda bread. No yeast either. Under five mins prep
I use to make it all the time when travelling through Africa for 12 months. Made it with baking soda, Fanta, Sprite, Coke (yuk) and best of all Beer. The best was Nigerian Guinness (the world's largest Guinness brewery).

3 cups self raising flour
3 tablespoons caster sugar or two of table sugar
330 ml Beer (not chilled)

Mix flour and sugar in a bowl, add beer. Mix with a wooden spoon until it starts to come together then use your hands. It is a sticky mixture, dont over work it, just a few minutes will do. put it in a loaf pan (greased) or be more rustic and loosely pull it into a round loaf and place on grease proof paper on a cookie sheet (pizza stone would be ideal - we used a dutch oven) and bake 180-200c for 45 - 60 mins.

The bread can be pimped out with chilli, chesse, sundried tomatoes, apple, pear etc.... just mix in with your hands


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## tricache (27/5/13)

Good to know! I might even give it a bash this afternoon with one of my stouts


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## Screwtop (27/5/13)

seamad said:


> Made some sourdough for breakfast this morning with @ 100g spent grain ( maris otter and a little heritage Xtal). Started it Friday arvo, super tasty and sour. Added the spent grain at the sponge stage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wish there was a reverse of Like! on this site..............................hate you, hate you. Dirty rotten lucky bugger :lol:

Screwy


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## NewtownClown (27/5/13)

If you make it without SR flour it can be dense so add some yeast or baking soda


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## drsmurto (27/5/13)

tricache said:


> Was going to give making a bread a try on the weekend, heard stout makes a really "interesting" bread.
> 
> Was being the key word, no siv so no sifting of flour ect would have make it pretty below average


No need to sieve flour for breadmaking. Never have and never read of that other than for cake making. Bread gets proved, kneaded etc so flour is well mixed.

Stout goes very well in bread, I used it recently in some sourdough baguettes.


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## tricache (28/5/13)

Made this last night with NewtownClown's recipe and just used a blonde that I made a while back and it worked a treat!!!

As you said a bit dense, more like a damper but freaking loved it, looking forward to having some with my soup for lunch :icon_drool2:


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## Edak (28/5/13)

tricache said:


> Made this last night with NewtownClown's recipe and just used a blonde that I made a while back and it worked a treat!!!
> 
> As you said a bit dense, more like a damper but freaking loved it, looking forward to having some with my soup for lunch :icon_drool2:



Nice, I think I saw that on xxxbread.com


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## Liam_snorkel (28/5/13)

DeGarre said:


> This was my humble go at the no-knead New York Times classic. My mind really boggled when it came out like that from the cast iron dutch oven with a lid. Great crust and nice chewy mouthfeel.


That looks pretty great, I plan to give it a go this weekend.
here's the video of the recipe if anyone else is interested: http://www.nytimes.com/video/2006/11/07/dining/1194817104184/no-knead-bread.html


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## seamad (28/5/13)

Screwtop said:


> Wish there was a reverse of Like! on this site..............................hate you, hate you. Dirty rotten lucky bugger :lol:
> 
> Screwy


I was a little too smug (as usual) and now my chickens have come home to roost.
After getting sick of hunting @ the yard for hidden nests I locked up the chooks in their run. In revenge they escaped and got into the vegie patch eating all the spinach and silverbeet, Have also uncovered evidence that there is an egg eater amongst them, so time for a chilli egg.
After being put on a gruesome gluten free diet for 8 weeks went to make a sour dough and was greeted with the sight and smell of a very ripe blue cheese, good in a cheese but not so for a starter. An intensive feed/half discard program brought the starter back to life thankfully.
The intensive rain buggered the fig crop this year so only got 1.5kg of figs for jam (holes in the bird net didn't help much either), no fig jam for the kids or rellies this year.
On the smug side of the coin I've been roasting my own coffee beans, difference is like comparing vb to a good homebrew.


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## DeGarre (29/5/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> That looks pretty great, I plan to give it a go this weekend.
> here's the video of the recipe if anyone else is interested: http://www.nytimes.com/video/2006/11/07/dining/1194817104184/no-knead-bread.html


Thanks!

I made one exactly the same today except all the liquid ie 1 5/8 cups (to 3 cups of flour) I used my recent India Porter instead of water. 5.8% abv and 93 ibus from Columbus hops - worked a treat. Great crust and sourly chewy.


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## Liam_snorkel (1/6/13)

Well here's my crack at the no-knead bread. Haven't cut it yet as its fresh out of the oven. 
All of my previous bread attempts have fallen short of the mark - not this by the looks of it. Anyone out there who had previously sucked at bread, I encourage you to give this a go!


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## DeGarre (3/6/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Well here's my crack at the no-knead bread. Haven't cut it yet as its fresh out of the oven.
> All of my previous bread attempts have fallen short of the mark - not this by the looks of it. Anyone out there who had previously sucked at bread, I encourage you to give this a go!


Looks great. Did you follow the 3 cups of flour and 1 5/8 cups of water as per the recipe or did you adjust? I did and found the dough very wet, hence the ciabatta-like appearance. Next time I'll adjust, less water/beer.


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## Liam_snorkel (3/6/13)

yeah I pretty much followed the recipe. For the second loaf I used 1 cup of beer and 5/8 water, and gave it a bit more time in the oven without a lid, so it formed a better crust.
here's the 2nd loaf:




I baked them both at 230degC, based on the written recipe which says 450degF for 30mins with lid on.. but after reviewing the original video he does them for 20min with lid on at 500-515degF (260degC).. "blazing hot".. So next time I'm going to do that.

I'd be cautious about removing _too _much of the liquid. Explanation here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html


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## pat_00 (13/11/13)

Anybody have any sourdough starter they can spare?

I just killed mine somehow, smells like a wet dog.


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## Airgead (13/11/13)

Shoot me a PM. I can save you some of Fred when i'm next baking. 

Cheers
Dave


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## Engibeer (15/11/13)

I recently cultured some farmhouse yeast from an OG sample of a Saison.

Added it to a sterile jar and fed it with some flour and water and it's been going for a few weeks.

Makes amazing bread.

Initially slow to prove, but perks up suddenly after a few hours and can be knocked down multiple times.

Personally, I would knock down twice and prove for less than 12 hours, any greater than that it tends to lose its oomph and the glutens collaps.

I can post a photo of the bread if anyone is interested.

Cheers


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## OzPaleAle (16/11/13)

I've been reading a book Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast by Ken Forkish, very good read about bread making.
He says to bake your breads in a dutch oven innside your dutch oven to keep steam inside like a commercial bread oven injects steam then take the the lid off for the last half hour to get a nice dark crust.
I have just been using a $20 Aldi dutch oven.

This is the result.


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## OzPaleAle (16/11/13)

Engibeer said:


> I recently cultured some farmhouse yeast from an OG sample of a Saison.
> 
> Added it to a sterile jar and fed it with some flour and water and it's been going for a few weeks.
> 
> ...


From what I read knocking it down your expelling all the gasses that impart a lot of the flavour.
I like the idea of using the Saison yeast, I'll give it a go thanks.

I normally stretch the dough from underneath and over the top woking around the ball to mix\knead, let it ferment then separate into loaves, pull the top of the dough tight by rolling the ball along the bench, then transfer to a proving basket.

Here is a vid of Ken Forkish doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPdedk9gJLQ

The rest of his videos are worth a watch.

http://www.youtube.com/user/KensArtisan?feature=watch


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/11/13)

Water/steam is crucial for bread crust. I have a spray bottle full of water that I spray into tge oven


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## manticle (16/11/13)

Can pop an oven tray containing water into the oven at the same time as the bread too.


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## OzPaleAle (16/11/13)

manticle said:


> Can pop an oven tray containing water into the oven at the same time as the bread too.


Cheers, I will give that a shot, I'm limited to round loaves with the dutch oven, I've been wanting to do some baguette shaped breads.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/11/13)

Spray the dough with water just as you put it in the oven


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## OzPaleAle (17/11/13)

Just made a couple of loaves with T-58 based Poolish, not real noticeable difference in taste, I guess the yeast need precursors that are in the wort to produce the spicy etc flavours.
I did notice with the same pitching rate as I normally do with bakers yeast it went mental in the bulk ferment, I guess the beer yeasts are stored cool so probably higher cell count compared to supermarket shelf temperature stored bakers yeast.


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## nala (17/11/13)

Bonj said:


> Thanks. Looks like Angus and Robertson have it in stock for $49.95. Only $15 more (with shipping at the current exchange rate) and I don't have to compromise my anti-software patent principles h34r:


Try http://www.bookdepository.com/search?searchTerm=richard+bertinet&search=Find+book

Two books for the price of one here and free delivery to OZ.


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## BadSeed (19/11/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> yeah I pretty much followed the recipe. For the second loaf I used 1 cup of beer and 5/8 water, and gave it a bit more time in the oven without a lid, so it formed a better crust.
> here's the 2nd loaf:
> 
> 
> ...


I'm going to try one of these on Thursday night.
We are going away camping on Saturday and it will be great to take with us (if it lasts long enough)

Quick question, 1/4 tsp instant yeast. Is this just Lowans dried yeast?


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## Dunkelbrau (24/11/13)

Just whipped this up this morning to have with some salad and sausages on the BBQ.

Probably my 3rd loaf from scratch. I need work, the only way to make better bread is to make more!

It's 60:40 white flour:rye flour. Baked at 230 for 30 mins and then dropped to 190 for 15.

I'm expecting it to be dense with the rye, good for toast!


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/11/13)

Mmmmmmm..rye bread


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## Mardoo (24/11/13)

Mmmmmmm..rye bread


It's 60:40 white flour:rye flour. Baked at 230 for 30 mins and then dropped to 190 for 15.

I'm expecting it to be dense with the rye, good for toast!


As a baker I used to make a sour rye with fennel seed and sultanas. The bomb for brekkie!


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## Airgead (25/11/13)

Jurt said:


> Just whipped this up this morning to have with some salad and sausages on the BBQ.
> 
> Probably my 3rd loaf from scratch. I need work, the only way to make better bread is to make more!
> 
> ...


I love a good rye loaf. Did 8 loaves of rye/spelt sourdough yesterday. Round a kilo and a half of starter, half a kilo of baker's flour, a kilo of rye and a kilo of spelt. 65% hydration. 7 hours rising.

I like the spelt/rye blend. The spelt is very high protein so it balances out the rye and stops the mix going gluggy. And it tastes awesome.

Cheers
Dave


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## nala (3/12/13)

Just starting out on the bread making journey.
Does anyone use a BBQ for baking their bread, I have a BBQ with a flat stainless steel plate, this seems to me to be the most obvious tool for getting the bottom heat and with the hood down provide essentially a conventional oven.
Probably talking out of the back of my neck though !
Would welcome suggestions - clean ones please.


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## Airgead (3/12/13)

Yep. Did it when my oven was out of action. Main thing to watch is the plate getting too hot and burning the crap out of the bottom of the loaves.

Get the plate hot (but not too hot) with direct heat then turn off the burners under the plate and use the other burners to keep the heat high.

Works OK. Not as controllable as a regular oven but does a pretty good job.


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## doon (3/12/13)

Wouldn't you be better off using a pizza stone in a bbq to bake bread?


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## Airgead (3/12/13)

Assuming you have one, yes. You can.

Works better than the plate as it delivers heat more slowly and won't burn the bottom so easily.


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## nala (3/12/13)

Airgead said:


> Assuming you have one, yes. You can.
> 
> Works better than the plate as it delivers heat more slowly and won't burn the bottom so easily.


I have a pizza stone, will give this a try.
Thank you.


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## toolio666 (8/12/13)

Ok, just got a sourdough starter from a friend... first trial yesterday... for a wholemeal loaf.

Oven was maybe a bit hot, a new oven, so still trying to get used to it... Getting an oven thermometer to check as well.

Thoughts or comments?


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/12/13)

Looks perfect


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## indica86 (8/12/13)

Looks good.
I'd go a moister mix so as to have lighter crumb wit' more holes.
But that is me.


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## DeGarre (8/12/13)

I like those big holes in a sourdough bread too, and chewy texture. Butter and cheese on top.


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## motch02 (12/12/13)

Hey Guys I see a lot of you make your own sourdough yeast but I was wondering if I could cheat and buy some if so what would you recommend?


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## OzPaleAle (12/12/13)

My first attempt at sourdough I just bought a culture off eBay for about $10, was very tasty, seemed to be a million different ones available I'd check there first.
I got lazy and killed mine however......


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## Airgead (12/12/13)

motch02 said:


> Hey Guys I see a lot of you make your own sourdough yeast but I was wondering if I could cheat and buy some if so what would you recommend?


Shoot me a PM... I can send you some of mine when I next bake. Its been running for around 20 years now and make s a very good loaf.


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## tricache (12/12/13)

Beer Bread with a twist...made with my Black Lager with Peanut butter and cooking chocolate added...freaking yum!! :icon_drool2:


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## indica86 (12/12/13)

Make your own, as per http://sourdough.com/blog/sourdom/beginners-blog-starter-scratch that way it will always be your friend.


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## wobbly (12/12/13)

If you add some hydrated Chia seed to your sour dough or even standard bread mix you will find that it makes the bread moister and keeps longer especially the sour dough as detailed in the following by Yoke Mardewi of Wild Sourdough fame

_white spelt and chia seed sourdough baguette (pic above)_​_I have been playing around with chia seeds for the last three years and I like chia seeds more and more each day. Chia seeds have no taste of their own but they add extra crunch and texture to any food, including bread. Chia seeds also add extra softness and moistness, which keep the sourdough bread from going stale. These qualities make this bread perfect for camping. Adding chia seeds to dough makes it perfect for making baguettes as the crumb of this dough is very moist and soft. Chia seed is highly nutritious (Omega 3 and Omega 6, calcium, fibre, trace minerals) and has an extremely low GI, so it will drive the naturally low GI of sourdough down even further. You can make a small sandwich loaf with this quantity of dough, if you prefer. if you are making this dough by hand you can double the recipe, for Thermomix users stay with one quantity at a time.
_
*Ingredients for two baguettes or one small tinned loaf*
*Chia seed gel: *_You need to soak the chia seeds in water 6–12 hours before making the dough. Stir the chia seeds a few times in the first couple of hours._
10g chia seeds
60g filtered water, at room temperature
In a clean jar with a lid, add the chia seeds and water, stir a few times to make sure the seeds are well distributed in the water. Soak for 6–12 hours.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## indica86 (12/12/13)

Looks good wobbly.
I'll have to grab some chia tomoz


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## wobbly (13/12/13)

Here is a bit more on what she had to say about how she uses Chia

_Here is a new recipe for you – something that’s sure to delight and nourish you. ‘White Spelt Chia Seed Baguette’ is an easy recipe; the method is the same as your everyday or basic loaf. I love soaked chia seed with everything (yoghurt, smoothie, porridge…) so what I urge you is to always have some on hand in the fridge. I usually soak about 150g chia to 900g water, kept in a glass jar in the fridge, you need to stir the chia a few times in the first couple of hours.

What are the benefits of chia? Well, there are loads of benefits, Google it - for sourdough bread however, it makes the dough moist and it will stop your sourdough going stale for a few days longer and lowers the GI of your sourdough even more._

You could really get in the good books with your "significant other" by having a jar or two of this in the fridge (along side your home brew of course) and be telling her you have seen the light and changed some of your bad habits!!

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Airgead (13/12/13)

Lindseeds work well that way as well. As does crushed wheat (bourghl) and a bunch of other stuff. Make a whole grain sourdough. Yum.


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## Dunkelbrau (24/12/13)

Mmm Soda bread with mustard and smoked pork neck! DELICIOUS!


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (24/12/13)

Had to post this. It's from my bakery.Keep your spent grain. It makes a lovely bread.


Edit;Still learning how to post pictures


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## indica86 (24/12/13)

So you put spent grain in Baker's Delight bread?
Can I see a shot of the crumb please and maybe a recipe


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (24/12/13)

I did make some bread with spent grain yes. It wasn't sold tho. Bakers delight wouldn't like that. Sour recipe ;
100% bakers flour 
2% salt
2% oil 
55% sour barm (mother,starter)
60-65% H2o

Main thing to remember is to feed your barm regularly. You can freeze the barm or at least place it in the fridge. That will help to retard the barm so it doesn't burn out. 

I'm not allowed to post recipes from bakers delight. But the basics are there. Just like controlling the temp after pitching yeast in a ferment. The sour barm should be looked apon the same way. If not fed every day it will smell funky.


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## indica86 (25/12/13)

How much of the grain?
I already do sourdough and have a lovely 2 yearold culture in my fridge.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (25/12/13)

Around 15/25% will give good results. The moisture content of the grain should be considerd when making the dough. I've not done this yet but I will dry out the grain after the silly season. This will do two things. Help to stabilise the grain and improve its shelf life. As well after drying it will be easier to add to a recipe. If adding dry spent grain then the % can be much higher. This I feel is the way to go for Home bread makers.Spent grain is a wasted resource I think.

EDIT;
Enzyme activity whilst proving your doughs (from the spent grain) will also affect your sour dough in a negative way. Mainly the aspect of structure within the bread,if adding to high % to sour dough the gluten (structure) will mellow to fast and lose the abilty to hold gas and keep its shape.


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## indica86 (25/12/13)

What about Mash Out? Does that not kill off the enzymes.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (27/12/13)

Navigation bar--use text links at bottom of page.
Are enzymes really the life force in raw foods?
Heat treatment tests on seeds disprove raw food enzyme claims
by Thomas E. Billings

Copyright 2011: text on this page is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.
Credit Beyond Vegetarianism, http://www.beyondveg.com, when sharing this page. 

Creative Commons License


Introduction:
enzyme claims restated as a hypothesis

In the raw vegan/vegetarian community, one may encounter a number of claims about food enzymes, including the following.
Enzymes in raw foods are [a]live and are the life force in those foods.
Enzymes in raw foods are reportedly “destroyed” (denatured may be more accurate) when food is heated above a certain critical temperature, approximately 48° C/118° F.
Foods heated above this critical temperature – even if only for a very brief period - are said to be “cooked” or “dead”.
Many raw fooders, whether they believe the raw food enzyme claims or not, use the temperature of 48° C/118° F (or an even lower value) as a dividing line between raw and cooked foods. 

Let’s start with claim #1. The term live enzymes can be immediately dismissed as incorrect because enzymes are merely molecules and lack nearly all the basic characteristics of life forms (see Davison, 2004, for a list of attributes). The term life force is undefined here, making it difficult to understand the claim. If we interpret the words literally, we can immediately reject the claim, since enzymes are molecules (matter), and a life force is not matter but some kind of energy.

However, assuming that those who make the claim are using figurative language, we can restate #1 above – for clarity – as: the heat-sensitive enzymes in raw foods are a proxy or marker for the (undefined) life force in foods. Since claim #2 asserts that the relevant enzymes are “destroyed” by heat above the critical temperature of 48° C/118° F, it follows that any/all foods heated above that temperature have lost their life force and must be “dead”.

The term all used in the preceding sentence must include seeds for the claim to be true. Seeds have a well-known property: seeds that are alive can germinate (sprout) and grow, if they are planted under appropriate conditions. The fact that a growing plant is alive – and presumably has the (undefined) life force - is self-evident. If we focus on seeds, the enzyme claims (1-3 above) can be combined to produce a testable hypothesis:

IF the heat-sensitive enzymes in raw foods are a proxy/marker for the (undefined) life force,
THEN seeds heated above the critical temperature of 48° C/118° F must be dead and cannot germinate (sprout).

Note that by recognizing that a growing plant is alive and has the (undefined) life force, we avoid the requirement to formally define the term.

Relevance of heat tolerance and heat shock/heat stress tests on seeds
The published scientific literature includes many studies that test seeds for heat tolerance or heat stress/shock. Heat tolerance studies are conducted to investigate the effects of heat treatments on seeds, including: a) possible reduction of pathogens (e.g., fungi, bacteria), b) standardize germination rates, and c) break the dormancy of seeds. Heat stress/shock studies typically use very high temperatures, and may be conducted to investigate the effects of fire on plant reproduction. Many of the published heat tolerance/heat stress studies on seeds provide excellent tests for the enzyme hypothesis stated above. The enclosed table summarizes the results from a sample of relevant studies.


Table 1.0: Summary of sample heat treatment & heat shock/heat stress studies on seeds

Research
paper
Species tested
Temperatures tested
Exposure time/ treatments
Germination period
Germination rates (%)
Comments







Lee et al., 2002
Rice:
Oryza sativa
Unheated,
90° C/194° F,
90° C/194° F
Control, 
1 day,
4 days
12 days
86-100%,
22.0-96.5%,
54.3-70.0%
5 varieties in test,
5 varieties in test,
6 varieties tested, only 2 germinated

Fourest et al., 1990
Barley:
Hordeum vulgare
71° C/159.8° F,
75° C/167.0° F,
84° C/183.2° F
11 days
7 days; root sprout>1 cm. to count
92%,
60%,
60%
Rates read from fig.2 in paper (note 2). 25 varieties in test.
Daws et al., 2007


26 Aizoaceae
6 Crassulaceae
5 Cactaceae
(desert succulents)
103° C/ 217.4° F

17 hours

Not specified
20-100%,
0-3%,
3-90%
Rates read from fig.1 in paper (note 2).
Seeds in study are small: 0.043 – 0.86 mg.
Baker et al., 2005
9 Australian fire ephemerals (see note 3 for definition)
70° C/158° F,
100° C/212° F,

1 hr + smoke water (see note 3 for definition)
84 days
30-80% for 5 species,
8-28% for 4 species
Rates read from fig.4 in paper (note 2).
Bell & Williams, 1998
21 Australian species
100° C/212° F
1 hr,
1.5 hr
(in boiling water)
21 days
6 species:
10.7-60%,
5 species:
6.7-36.0%

Weiss & Hammes, 2003
Mung bean:
Phaseolus aureus
Unheated,
70° C/158° F,
80° C/176° F
Control,
10 minutes (in hot water)
2 days
99%,
94%,
87.5%
Rates read from fig.2 in paper (note 2).


O’Reilly & De Atrip, 2007
Alder:
Alnus glutinosa,
Birch:
Betula pubescens
Unheated,
60° C/140° F
Control, vs
1-4 hrs
42 days
Alder:
11.5-59.5% vs 29.6-57.4%. Birch:
24.0-27.5% vs
11.0-26.3 %
High proportion of birch seeds are non-viable; birch treatments with 0% germination are excluded
Hanley & Fenner, 1998
6 Mediterranean fire ephemerals (see note 3 for definition)
Unheated,
100-120° C in 10° intervals/ 
212-248° F
Control,
10 minutes
56 days
Control: 
30-90%,
100°: 30-60% for 3 species,
110°: 60% for 1
120°: 30% for 1
Rates read from fig.1 in paper (note 2). The only 2 species to grow after >=110° treatments have small seeds: 0.86-0.97 mg. See note 4.

Sidari et al., 2008
Pine tree:
Pinus pinea (Mediterranean region)
Unheated,
80° C/176° F,
110° C/230° F,
140° C/284° F
Control,
20 minutes,
3 minutes,
3 minutes
3 days
100%,
60%,
80%,
60%

De Villalobos et al., 2002
Calden tree:
Prosopis caldenia
(Argentina)
Unheated,
371° C/699.8° F,
449° C/840.2° F

Control,
duration unclear; may be <2 mins at max temp
21 days
5.2%,
11.7%,
6.7%
Study used controlled burns.
Banda et al., 2006
Kiaat tree/Mukua:
Pterocarpus angolensis
(Africa)
Unheated,
450° C/842° F
Control,
1 minute
2 years
40%,
15%
Rates from paper fig. 3; natural germination rate is ~2%.

Notes:

Three columns: Temperature tested, Exposure time, Germination rates are parallel: multiple rows per paper correspond to multiple temperatures tested.
In some studies, the relevant test results were shown only as graphs. For those studies, the numbers were obtained (estimated) by reading the graph.
“Fire ephemerals are short-lived plants with seeds that persist in the soil and germinate after a fire or physical disturbance.” Baker et al. 2005, p. 345. Smoke water is water that contains certain chemicals found in wood smoke. For more information on smoke water, see Flematti et al. (2004).
For similar studies, see Hanley (2009) and Hanley et al. (2001).


Highlights from the table (note: this section is redundant but is provided for those who want a quick summary): 
Rice was heated to 90° C/194° F for 4 days and still sprouted, i.e., most seeds were still alive after long exposure to temperatures much higher than 48° C/118° F.
Barley was heated to 84° C/183.2° F for 11 days and still sprouted.
Very small seeds were heated to 103° C/217.4° F for 17 hours and still sprouted.
Seeds of 3 Australian species were boiled in 100° C/212° F water for 90 minutes and still sprouted.
Seeds of 2 species were exposed to fire, 371-450° C/700-842° F for short periods, and still sprouted.

Discussion

According to the raw food enzyme claims, the heat-treated seeds described above (and in the table) have lost their enzymes and are “dead”, so consequently they cannot germinate/sprout. The fact that they do germinate provides clear, unequivocal proof that the “heat-sensitive enzymes are the life force” hypothesis is false. It also directly challenges the common raw food belief that foods heated above the temperature of 48° C/118° F are always “dead”. It further raises additional questions as to whether heat-sensitive enzyme content should ever be used as a proxy measure for assessing how “alive” a particular food is, i.e., as a measure of vitality.

Enzyme advocates may note the reduced germination rates for heat-treated seeds in the table, and equivocate and say that is proof that heating can reduce the vitality of the seed. The statement is partially valid but also irrelevant; it does not override the fact that the seed studies presented here disprove the enzyme hypothesis. Note also that the table is a summary and excludes details from some of the studies showing that heat treatment in some cases enhanced seed germination.

Other forms of heat-tolerant plant life. Seeds are not the only form of plant life resistant to high temperatures. Pollen shows similar tolerance of high temperatures. Exposure of Petunia pollen to 60° C/140° F for 2 days (also 75° C/167° F for 1 day) did not impair the ability of the pollen to set fruits. Nicotiana pollen exposed to 75°C/167° F for 6-12 hours was able to set seed (Rao et al., 1995). “The grass Dichanthelium lanuginosum can tolerate long-term soil temperatures up to 57°C [134.6° F]” (Daws et al., 2007, p. 265). 

Heat-tolerant bacteria. Some species of bacteria – simple single-celled organisms whose bodies are mostly water and who lack cooling mechanisms – show remarkable heat tolerance. “A wide variety of bacteria thrive at temperatures from 70 to 90° C [158-194° F]” (Brock & Boylen, 1973). Heat-tolerant bacteria are found in natural hot water habitats (e.g., hot springs) and in artificial ones as well, including hot-water heaters. Bacteria that grow at temperatures above 100° C/212° F have been found in underwater volcanic thermal vents. Thermophilic (heat-loving) bacteria have thermostable (heat-stable or heat-tolerant) enzymes; an example is the enzyme pullulanase in Clostridium thermohydrosulfuricum, which functions optimally at a temperature of 90° C/194° F (Lowe et al., 1993).

Some seeds have heat-tolerant enzymes. The reality is that seeds and seedlings can contain enzymes that are stable above the temperature of 48° C/118° F. The paper by Eglington et al. (1998) is a suggested entry point for those interested in the related scientific literature. Will raw food enzyme advocates change their long-standing claims in response to this information, and assert that the heat-stable enzymes in foods are important? If they do so, is that equivalent to saying that “cooked” foods are as good as raw foods?


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (27/12/13)

I don'know how to do links. But in this study it showed enzyme activity in barley seeds;Fourest et al., 1990
Barley:
Hordeum vulgare
71° C/159.8° F,
75° C/167.0° F,
84° C/183.2° F
11 days
7 days; root sprout>1 cm. to count
92%,
60%,
60%
Rates read from fig.2 in paper (note 2). 25 varieties in test.
Daws et al., 2007
Seeds held at 84degC for 11 days had a 60% germination rate. From my experiments with wet spent grain it showed a mellowing of the gluten. That was in non sour recipes. 

Drying the spent grain should retard those enzymes to a point.


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## indica86 (27/12/13)

Having just drunk 750ml of hb Saison and getting into a Citra Pale, wtf?
I guess in short, maybe yes / maybe no?

I'll have a go and see.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (27/12/13)

Well you did ask. I've read a csiro paper on bread enzymes after baking. I can't seem to find it atm.


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## Not For Horses (16/1/14)

Mid week sourdough.
At least some good came of being off work sick


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## Mr. No-Tip (16/1/14)

I am off to a 'raw food feast' on Sunday. I suspect my jerky and oysters might buck the intention a little. The info above should be a good talking point.


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## tricache (21/1/14)

Technically bread...I made pretzels on the weekend and :icon_drool2: even the wife enjoyed them!


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## Liam_snorkel (21/1/14)

Nice job. I've always put them in the too hard basket.


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## Fabrizio (22/1/14)

Today I woke up at 5am. I had nothing to do until 8, so i made this simple and quick bread for my breakfast.


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## tricache (22/1/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Nice job. I've always put them in the too hard basket.


Actually pretty easy!

Got the recipe from one Brad @ Beersmith

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/05/03/soft-pretzels-a-recipe-for-bavarian-pretzels/


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## DeGarre (22/1/14)

My third try with sourdough starter. I have now fed it for a week and it is bubbly. I took 2 cups of it and 3 cups of flour, and water, and started kneading and it quickly came together and incorporated, feeling very soft and airy.

I forgot the salt.

Started again, same measurements but with 2 tsp salt. This time it too longer to come together and it wasn't as soft. Could the salt do this?

Got there in the end. In both cases the dough smelled like a nice glass of buttermilk. Lovely!

Now the wait begins. I have earned to have a test bottle of my APA 4 days from bottling.


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## OzPaleAle (22/1/14)

I believe salt tightens the gluten.


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## indica86 (22/1/14)

Salt retards the fermentation process. More nutrients, more flavour, better rise...


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## Plastic Man (31/1/14)

New to bread-making...but have been baking a "no knead" loaf a few times a month the past few months. Been very surprised how easy it is and how well the bread turns out. Great crust and nice a chewy inside. been using cheap Aldi flour, a bit of salt and 1/4 teaspoon of yeast.


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## indica86 (31/1/14)

Looks good. Bread doesn't need kneading, the old stretch and fold is all I do for sourdough and it works a treat.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (31/1/14)

If you forget the salt again just make a slurry(3tsp water 2tsp salt) work this Thu your dough. Add a touch more flour if need be once mixed Thu. Salt is primarily for gluten development other reasons to add are shelf life,taste,moisture retaining,although @2%,3% if using a starter it's retarding of yeast is minimal. 

*Above is a ratio not a recipe. 2:3. 

The bread I've seen displayed here looks great.


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## OzPaleAle (6/3/14)

Had a thought today about using a Lager Yeast(saccharomyces pastorianus) in bread.
I wonder if its preference for lower temperatures would allow it to work better for proving etc in colder melbourne months rather than the higher temp preferring S. Cerevisiae or is there some mechanism not present in the Lager yeast that the Ale yeasts have.


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## indica86 (6/3/14)

Why not make a sourdough culture and use that? Ferments longs and slow, provides better access to nutrients and is yummy.


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## OzPaleAle (6/3/14)

True, I guess a sourdough culture is really just a mixture of yeast strains that have evolved to suite the environment they are in as the strains that aren't die off eventually.


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## indica86 (6/3/14)

It is now thought to bed yeast from wheat / rye. Hence why organic grains are used to create the culture, and why a covered container will work.
Lactobacillus eventually grows in there too. And they last for ages, mine is well over two years old and lives in the fridge quite happily.


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## Airgead (7/3/14)

indica86 said:


> And they last for ages, mine is well over two years old and lives in the fridge quite happily.


Mine's nearly 20....

And yes. The bugs present are mostly from the flour rather than the air. I have fired up starters in completely sealed containers. Flour has plenty of native lactobacillus and yeast in it already.


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## DeGarre (7/4/14)

I bought a sourdough starter from ebay for 6 bucks from a seller in California Sierra Nevadas. The starter originates from 1980 and is from a pancake restaurant. Rises like mad, is very sour and is called Larry. 

I've baked with this starter 2 times, both no'knead. This one in a dutch oven:







This one sort of a 2x ciabatta + 1 roll as I messed up getting the dough out of the bowl:


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## xa_jg66 (14/4/14)

Has anyone successfully used their grain mill to make flour for bread? I have a millmaster and would love to make a sourdough "from paddock to plate"


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## Not For Horses (14/4/14)

xa_jg66 said:


> Has anyone successfully used their grain mill to make flour for bread? I have a millmaster and would love to make a sourdough "from paddock to plate"


Tried this. Would not recommend it.
It works but there is a lot of sifting and grinding then yet more sifting and grinding involved.
I wouldn't do it, but then I do live about 5 minutes drive away from a very good flour mill so maybe I'm just spoilt!


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## Mardoo (14/4/14)

You really need a composition or natural stone mill to get good flour at home. Barley mills crush, flour mills grind. It's a big difference. The only reason you get flour from crushing malt is because of the enzymatic changes that increase the friability of the barley corn. Coronas don't work well either. They're made for cracking grain. One if my biggest regrets is leaving behind my stone mill when I moved here!


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## Mardoo (14/4/14)

Or a small laboratory hammer mill. Totally cool, but way pricey.


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## pat_00 (22/4/14)

I've been thinking of making pumperknickel, as you can grind the rye fine enough in a grain crusher


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## Bridges (28/6/14)

Have had my first crack at bread today. Starter was fired up 6 days ago and seems to be coming along well. The advice i'd had was that I had to chuck some of my starter to keep it healthy so I thought I'd use it. Put the starter in plus a quarter of the recommended yeast. Tried to keep it simple hence pretty standard white loaf. Very happy with the result. I can see striving to make the perfect loaf keeping me doing this for a long while.


Not sure this is quite porn... Yet


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## indica86 (29/6/14)

Packet yeast negates the point of using starter. It will become more active a lot faster then the starter could ever hope to.


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## Bridges (29/6/14)

Starter is going well but I wasn't confident it would be strong enough to go on it's own, the starter recipe I'm following says to throw half of it out as it is getting fed daily and getting larger, something to do with maintaining ph levels by getting rid of some. I wasn't expecting to bake with it at all, just couldn't bring myself to chuck it out so thought I'd bung it into some bread dough. No it wasn't sourdough, it was a really nice loaf of bread regardless. Hopefully in another week I'll go again with just the starter no yeast. It's a fun game.


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## indica86 (29/6/14)

Fair call mate.
Keep going, mine is 4 years old and works faithfully.


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## Mardoo (29/6/14)

Starters are like beer ferments, they're living things and you have to get used to the cycles and how you best like to use them. For example do they add better flavor on day 4 after a feed or day 6 or 8. They do need to be fed regularly, which is why you use or dump half and then feed them again. So you're not just adjusting pH but maintaining the little biome. Yep, a friend in the fridge, always there for a good conversation


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## Bridges (29/6/14)

Mine is still living on the bench with a daily feed. There is so much different information out there on the technique required to get them going and keep them alive, I've read about pineapple juice, grapes, yogurt, instant mashed potato and many other weird and wonderful things "needed" to make a healthy starter. I'm running with a 1:1 ratio of flour and water with a daily feed keeping it at a steady 22 degrees (room temp) and it seems to be going OK I plan to keep this up for another week or so before moving it into the fridge. It's an enjoyable process though.


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## indica86 (29/6/14)

Flour and water is all you need.


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## Bridges (29/6/14)

indica86 said:


> Flour and water is all you need.


Good, cause its all I'm using!


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## seamad (29/6/14)

I feed mine at a 1:2 water/flour ratio and keep it in the fridge. Lasts at least 4 weeks without a feed, has been left longer over the years, just removed the dry mouldy crust and fed up for a while in those cases. It looks very dry to start with with a fair bit of dry unmixed flour, but gradually turns to a thickish paste. I use it on average every 1-2 weeks and find the dry method easier than having to feed more regularly when it sits in the fridge for longer.


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## Danwood (19/7/14)

Corn bread.

A plain version and a fried onion, garlic and rosemary version.

The crispy, buttery edges are the best...and with the smokey, spicy, sweet beans and pork...faaark, I'm done !


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## Bribie G (9/8/14)

Quick question re breadmaking in a bread machine. I've only ever attempted bread a few times in my life but I've got this loverly sack of stone ground Atta.

I'll be using dried yeast (yes I will rehydrate in warm water  ) and I'm being presented with a bread making machine later today.

Should I put a small bit of dex in with the flour to get the yeast hammering away, or does the yeast attack the flour directly to cause the dough to rise? I seem to remember my Mam using a bit of Lyles Golden Syrup when I was a kid.


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## Mardoo (9/8/14)

Don't need to add sugar at all but you can if you want. No need at all, but if you wish, any sugar will do. Former baker. Me. If you're able to do the kneading it's likely you'll develop a real affection for the process, based on my triangulation of other posts of yours.


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## indica86 (9/8/14)

^^^ No to the sugar, YES to salt. You don't even need oil.
Hand kneading is also a win. If you enjoy nice bread Bribie go sour dough and you'll never look back, makes a cracker pizza too.


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## Bribie G (9/8/14)

Hey indica without going through twenty pages, could you update this thread with a quick sourdough culture 101? 

Local bakeries around here are still stuck in the Vienna loaf, vanilla slice and chunky steak pie era and I lurve sourdough warm from the oven. I really like Taree but it's socially somewhat like Innisfail, Ingham.... nice place but not too many hipsters :lol: We do have sushi however. B)


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## indica86 (9/8/14)

I'll get back to you.... shortly..

Actually here >>> http://sourdough.com/blog/sourdom/beginners-blog-starter-scratch

Easy.
Mine is over 3 years old and so easy to use.


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## Bribie G (9/8/14)

Thanks, will put on my Wiccan gear and read that under the full moon. B) I would guess that all bread was made that way before the 20th century.

edit: tying two threads together I see that it's possible to use some milk kefir to initialise the starter - kefir is a yeast and bacteria mix as well.

Will go the traditional method first.


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## indica86 (9/8/14)

Bribie, go the simple organic flour, water, dump some add more and repeat method. It works so well, without fail. And then it lasts forever.
It will take a little time to stabilise but will do. Then you'll find a happy place with it.
Mine is used once a week and then fed and put straight back in the fridge.

It is sometimes said you need different cultures for different breads.

The bagel recipe on that forum is AMAZING.


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## 4KingAle (9/8/14)

Yes a tablespoon of sugar will work .No rehydrating necessary if the yeast is fresh.....
Peter Reinhardt bread bakers apprentice. 
Try cold fermenting in the fridge overnight. I ditched my bread machine for cooking and now use a stone in the oven with a steam bath.
Your brewing skills should translate well.


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## Blind Dog (10/8/14)

Just out of the oven. Lean dough with added herbs and grains based on the recipe and techniques in Peter Rineharts Artisan Bread Every Day. Simples

Also remaking sourdough starter after MIL threw the old one out when they stayed to look after the dogs when we were in the UK. not happy!


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## Blind Dog (10/8/14)

Pic


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## Blind Dog (10/8/14)

Maybe the right way up this time?


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## Danwood (10/8/14)

I preferred the former, BD...it gave the impression of an extremely light and airy loaf, so much so it defies gravity.


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## Airgead (11/8/14)

Made my usual 7 loaves yesterday. 20 year old sourdough culture. All hand kneaded. Give it a go Bribie... you'll never look back.


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## Bribie G (13/8/14)

I'll make up some sourdough culture soon. So far I have been getting to grips with bread machine using more conventional ingrdients. Every time I switch on the oven I've done a couple of bucks so I'm keen to use the machine instead.

Friend presented me with a very old Breville machine from her old mum so I have been experimenting. I'm using Golden Grain stone ground Atta flour (from the mighty Grewal Bros) as I have a sack.

It's a bit different to supermarket flours and seems, as found to my grief, to absorb water differently so experimenting is very much the order of the day. It also contains less gluten apparently, as it's more geared towards chapattis and parathas rather than Western bakery bread, so needs a bit more kicking along with yeast etc.

Batches:

#1 turned out like a brick and could be used for smash and grab raids at Prouds Jewellers. Binned.
#2 turned out about the consistency of blu tack. Binned.
#3 - massive readjustment of the recipe, swelled up like the blob, rushed up from the pan and filled the whole void and stuck to the inside of the glass lid and baked on. It was edible but more like brown Madiera cake than bread.

How do I clean this up? I wonder if I can remove the lid for cleaning. Wiggle jiggle, ancient perished plastic gives way with a snapping sound and lid is detached, various washers and spacers drop out.

#4 No probs, stick lid back on. I've finally hit the sweet spot of the recipe, I think. Come back after the final beeps and take the lid off. Instead of bread there's a lump of slightly warm dough. Obviously I've destroyed the seal and it won't bake properly. Binned.

Binned the Bread maker as well. h34r:

#5 Go to Bing Lee. Buy latest model. Follow instructions. Batch #5 is in there now :lol: :lol:

Will post.

As I said, (ed: using the domestic..) oven is pretty expensive and these things don't use a lot of power so I want to get pretty smooth with operating it. Any half decent bakery bread round here is around five bux a loaf. I only have to bake twice a week and the new device will pay itself off after three months. Grewal's flour is only about a dollar a kilo if you can find it in sacks.

Now where have I heard that sort of DIY logic before ??? :beerbang:


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## Bribie G (13/8/14)

Hey airgead that Grewal's is at the Hornsby Indian store in the street right next to Westfield, have ten kilo sacks if you are interested in trying for twelve bucks.


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## Crouch (13/8/14)

Well ... the wife wanted a Thermomix so given all the money I've put into my brewery I had to oblige. I forget to get a shot when it came out of the oven, but it was a little over done but still tasty. We made some butter earlier in the night (with the thermie) so used the buttermilk in this loaf ... first loaf of bread ever, pretty happy with the result. Far from being 'traditionally made', but using that machine is so easy and chasing a 9 month around I couldn't see another way to do it.

(yes, the oven needs a clean)


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## Airgead (14/8/14)

Bribie G said:


> Hey airgead that Grewal's is at the Hornsby Indian store in the street right next to Westfield, have ten kilo sacks if you are interested in trying for twelve bucks.


I might have a look. I tend to use Demeter flours. I buy them in 12.5kg sacks in bulk from a wholesaler. Great organic, stoneground, unbleached flours. I have 6 sacks to get through before I need to buy more. I think the missus might just have a small fit if I add more flour to the pile.

I know that indian grocer well. We go there a lot.

Cheers
Dave


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## Not For Horses (14/8/14)

How many people here use malt flour in their sourdough?


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## primusbrew (14/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> How many people here use malt flour in their sourdough?


I haven't but I have been wondering recently what the effect would be. 

My bread making is mostly sourdough using wheat and rye stoneground wholemeal flours. Would adding malt flour result in any starch conversion at proving temperatures (18c) over say 6-10 hrs? If so this could add a slightly sweet note that might go well with the wholemeal loaves. 

I think I've just convinced myself to give it a go. 

I'd be keen to hear if other people have any experience with this.


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## Bribie G (14/8/14)

I ran up a small batch of _wheat _malt flour in my Marga and kneaded it in with wholemeal flour to make some bread buns, maybe a third wheat malt to wheat flour. They turned out pretty sweet and sickly, the malt completely overwhelmed the taste and I'd guess there was some conversion during rising. If using malt flours, I'd go a very small amount.

I seem to remember that the good old Hovis brown bread in the UK had a bit of malt.


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## Bribie G (14/8/14)

Well, first batch in the new machine turned out really stodgy and I have come to the conclusion that the Atta flour isn't suitable for bread baking as is. Airgead please note.. B)

I could get some gluten flour and add that as an experiment, but I'll keep the Atta for pizza crust (spectacular) and parathas etc.

So I trotted me round to BiLo and got a five k bag of Laucke wholemeal bread mix, and checking through the viewing port it's doing a really good job in the machine right now.

The mix has improvers etc built in, and comes with a generous pack of their own yeast. I checked online and this mob seems to be the "Coopers of home breadmaking": fantastic resource for recipes including Turkish Bread etc.








The back of the sack is a course in Bread101 all by itself.  $1.30 per 1000g loaf for base ingredients, can't complain.

Now for the sourdough. _Rolls sleeves up. _


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## Not For Horses (14/8/14)

Yeah malt flour to about 2% is all you need bribie! Although I think malt biscuits are probably higher than that.

I was talking to a local baker here who is now using my malt across his whole bread range and he was explaining the reasons to me.
Basically, in a sourdough culture, you have lactobacillus and saccharomyces competing together in the same medium.
Adding 2% malt flour adds a bit of maltose (or maltoriose, can't remember which one he said) which the saccharomyces love to munch on. This evens the playing field for the two bugs and apparently makes for better rising.

I started using it in mine and noticed a big difference in the rise time. It also seems to be a bit less sour, maybe due to the decreased time that the lacto is working. Not sure on that bit.
I'd recommend it though.


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## primusbrew (14/8/14)

NFH is that 2% as baker's percentage? I might give it a go in my next batch. 

Personally I prefer my sourdoughs to only have a little sour character so this sounds like a good option.

So did notice an increase in sweetness at all?


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## primusbrew (14/8/14)

NFH is that 2% as baker's percentage? I might give it a go in my next batch. 

Personally I prefer my sourdoughs to only have a little sour character so this sounds like a good option.

So did notice an increase in sweetness at all?


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## Not For Horses (14/8/14)

What do you mean by bakers percentage?

Just 2% by weight compared to the flour. So for my usual loaf of 400g, I add 8g of malt flour.
I didn't really notice an increase in sweetness. Two reasons, it's such a small quantity and those complex malt sugars aren't really that sweet tasting anyway.


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## Bribie G (14/8/14)

Might try some LDME in my next loaf.


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## Blind Dog (14/8/14)

Bribie G said:


> Might try some LDME in my next loaf.


Each to their own, but treat it like super strength crystal. I tried it once, but find I prefer a handful or 3 of spent grains to add texture and flavour, although the husks can be a little annoying


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## primusbrew (14/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> What do you mean by bakers percentage?Just 2% by weight compared to the flour. So for my usual loaf of 400g, I add 8g of malt flour.I didn't really notice an increase in sweetness. Two reasons, it's such a small quantity and those complex malt sugars aren't really that sweet tasting anyway.


Yeah that's what I meant by bakers percentage. % weight compared to the weight of flour rather than % weight compared to the weight of the final dough.


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## brewologist (14/8/14)

Reading this thread make me want to break out the bread machine next brew day.

Love your work fellas.


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## Airgead (14/8/14)

Bribie G said:


> Well, first batch in the new machine turned out really stodgy and I have come to the conclusion that the Atta flour isn't suitable for bread baking as is. Airgead please note.. B)
> 
> 
> Now for the sourdough. _Rolls sleeves up. _


Yeah... I did wonder. You want a high protein flour for bread and I'm pretty sure Atta is pretty low.

If you want some sourdough starter to get you going, give me a yell. Fred (my starter) is about 20 years old now and travels well through the post.

Cheers
Dave


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## indica86 (14/8/14)

No, Atta is not low protein and it works fine as a bread flour.
I have used it in pizza bases and bread with sour dough no problems.


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## Airgead (14/8/14)

All I have on it is from wiki - 


> Most atta is milled from the semi-hard wheat varieties, also known as durum wheat, that comprise 90% of the Indian wheat crop, and is more precisely called durum atta. Hard wheats have a high content of gluten (a protein composite that gives elasticity), so doughs made out of atta flour are strong and can be rolled out very thin. Indian wheat are mostly Durum wheat, which are high in protein but less in "bread forming gluten" so the bread when baked with this flour does not rise as well and tend to be dense.


I suspect that atta is pretty variable. It may be real Indian atta in which case maybe not so good for a risen bread (but great for a chapati or for pasta given its durum wheat) or it might be just flour in which case it may be good for bread. Atta is just Hindi for flour so I guess you could get a bunch of stuff labelled as atta.

Cheers
Dave


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## Bribie G (15/8/14)

This is made in Mildura by the Grewal brothers who imported a stone mill from India. I'd guess they select local varieties of wheat that are best for Indian breads but not so much for Western style bakery goods. When I get my sourdough happening I'll definitely give it a go again with some extra gluten added.

Dave are you likely to be at the State comp next weekend?


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## Airgead (16/8/14)

Bribie G said:


> Dave are you likely to be at the State comp next weekend?


Nope... don't do the competition thing.


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## paulyman (16/8/14)

This thread makes me hungry! There are some awesome efforts on here.

I switched to making a bread known as "Fred Bread" quite a while ago. The method makes the most amazing bread, with a remarkable depth of flavour and the most amazing crumb. It also fits well into a work schedule as you make up the preferment, leave it for up to 48 hours on top of the fridge to work its magic. I generally make it in the evening on a thursday and its ready for me to start on saturday morning.

Once I work out how to post pictures I'll add a few.


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## Bribie G (17/8/14)

Well I must admit to being impressed with my $90 bread machine, this thing puts a new slant on the dollar loaf 




I also used the dough setting to make a pizza dough with the atta flour and it turned out brilliantly.


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## Crouch (18/8/14)

Loving this olive bread! Just need to work on the rise for a 'full size' loaf


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## DeGarre (19/8/14)

OK, benders, let's take this thread back to the topic...






Today's no-knead ciabatta.


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## jyo (3/1/15)

Finally, after being inspired by this thread, I made my first sourdough. Really happy with the results. I've been nailing slices of it fried in olive oil and dipping it in balsamic, and eating bruschetta for breakfast everyday! Just made sourdough pancakes with the kids and we'll never go back to normal pancakes after tasting these babies.


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## panzerd18 (4/1/15)

Hi all, looking to make my own bread, should I buy a bread maker, or a benchtop mixer to knead the dough and use my oven to bake bread?

I am leaning to the side of buying the mixer and oven.


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## Ciderman (4/1/15)

panzerd18 said:


> Hi all, looking to make my own bread, should I buy a bread maker, or a benchtop mixer to knead the dough and use my oven to bake bread?
> 
> I am leaning to the side of buying the mixer and oven.


For me I'd buy the mixer. It's versatile and you make better bread in an oven. The bread maker just fits into the same category as slow cookers, thermomix' ect - they exist because people are lazy.


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## niftinev (5/1/15)

Ciderman said:


> For me I'd buy the mixer. It's versatile and you make better bread in an oven. The bread maker just fits into the same category as slow cookers, thermomix' ect - they exist because people are lazy.


Not really, i love that i can wake up in the morning to a nice fresh hot loaf or come home too same. Has nothing to do with being lazy for me its's all about convenience and even when home i don't have to put the oven on when it's stinkin hot, although i can make better in the oven but at times not worth it


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## Ciderman (5/1/15)

Well each to their own I guess. It's just like beer, I can make it with a tin of extract in not much time or I can craft it from grain over a few hours. In both cases you make beer, but to my taste one is clearly better than the other. 

Bread is the same. If you like the taste of sliced white then a bread maker is a good option. Prefer the more artisan breads, go a mixer.


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## indica86 (5/1/15)

Use your hands. Get a real feel for what is going on.


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## Airgead (5/1/15)

indica86 said:


> Use your hands. Get a real feel for what is going on.


Yeah. Definitely. Learn to make it by hand first, then switch to a machine. Learning to kneed the dough by hand really gives you a feel for how the dough develops.

I've been making bread by hand for 10 years now. Still haven';t felt the need to switch to a machine (though with teenage kids, the weekly bake is now up to around 6kg of dough which is a lot to kneed by hand. Mind you, its also beyond the capacity of domestic mixers as well...


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## seamad (18/1/15)

Pizza night last night, usually make some bread sticks with leftover pizza dough in the morning along with a sourdough and/or ciabatta ,but after a few too many scottish wee heavies last night I thought it prudent to just put the door on the oven and not rake out the coals. Took the door off this morning to bake bread and the fire started up again so decided to make some brekky pizzas that the missus has been wanting for a while. Turned out pretty tasty, just bbq pizza sauce, bacon cheese and eggs.







And after brekky baked a sourdough loaf


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## Red Baron (19/1/15)

1st attempt at ciabatta. Used plain white flour, no poolish or biga, just folded it a couple of times after primary ferment. Cooked it in the webber Q to save heating the house up. Looks like I never need to buy this again!


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## Bridges (20/1/15)

Hey Seamad awesome looking loaf there! What do you use to make the cuts? Mine never look that clean...


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## seamad (20/1/15)

Bridges said:


> Hey Seamad awesome looking loaf there! What do you use to make the cuts? Mine never look that clean...


Thanks , I use the old fashioned razor blades, they last for ages and are pretty cheap.


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## BadSeed (9/2/15)

Red Baron said:


> 1st attempt at ciabatta. Used plain white flour, no poolish or biga, just folded it a couple of times after primary ferment. Cooked it in the webber Q to save heating the house up. Looks like I never need to buy this again!


Looks great bredren, any chance of the recipe?


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## Airgead (9/2/15)

The week's baking.


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## seamad (15/2/15)

2 Sticks from leftover pizza dough and a sourdough loaf, all 24 hour ferments.


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## Red Baron (15/2/15)

BadSeed said:


> Looks great bredren, any chance of the recipe?


300g white flour, 1 tsp bread yeast, 1 tsp salt, 260ml water.

I put all the ingredients in the kitchenaid with the dough hook and beat it like crazy for about 5min (it goes from just being a really wet sludge to being a really wet dough after a few minutes). I let it rise for about 4 hours, then scooped it out onto some clingwrap on the bench and folded it a few times to shape. It proved on the bench for about 30min. I preheated the weber with the pizza stone in for 10min on full, then it cooked on full for about 20min. I've turned the heat down slightly since as you can see the scorch marks in the photo.

Use lots of flour on the clingwrap and dough and have wet hands are my 2 tips for ciabatta. Unbelievably simple to make when you know how...... 

Cheers,
RB

Ps. It works equally well with spelt flour- just use a bit less water to get the same consistency.


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## indica86 (25/3/15)

Just shaped the sourdough bagels and put them in the fridge ready for boiling and baking tomorrow... It's been a while, REALLY looking forward to them.


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## Red Baron (26/3/15)

Indica- Do you let your Bagels prove again after boiling them, or put them straight in the oven after. I find that mine look all lumpy after they come out of the boil, and letting them prove for 20min or so evens them out again. I've been making both blueberry and plain ones recently and they are the bomb!

Cheers,
RB


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## indica86 (26/3/15)

Boil to oven
Just baked them.






Yum yum!


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## Fents (26/3/15)

Finally joined the bread crew...started making normal loaves then my mate gave me some starter and a big lesson, goes a litttle like

Mix dry and wet ingredients
Rest for 20mins then add salt and knead
Rise for one hour then flatten out and fold
Rise for one hour then flatten out and fold
Rise for one hour then flatten, shape into containers and ferment in fridge overnight
Next morning pull out containers, take dough out, slash and spray with water
Bake at 230c for 10mins then 200c for 15mins

1st loaves :





2nd loaves :





Still not sure why i got that blistering on top of my 2nd ones? Maybe didnt pop all the bubbles when shaping the loaves into containers? any ideas?


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## Fents (26/3/15)

bloody hell seamad and airghead your pics look amazing!


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## Airgead (26/3/15)

Fents said:


> Finally joined the bread crew...started making normal loaves then my mate gave me some starter and a big lesson, goes a litttle like
> 
> Mix dry and wet ingredients
> Rest for 20mins then add salt and knead
> ...


Blistering is usually a sign of over rising. The top dries out a bit and starts to separate from the main loaf. Gas bubbles form underneath and then expand during baking to form a big blister.

I also don't knock down the bread that often. That results in a very closed texture. I prefer a more open, lighter texture. I just kneed, rest for an hour, shape and rise (8-12 hours depending on the weather) before baking.

Cheers
Dave


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## Fents (27/3/15)

Thanks Dave!


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## Red Baron (31/3/15)

Made Blueberry bagels for breakfast. It's handy when the fermenting fridge does double duty overnight as a proving area too!


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## Dunkelbrau (11/4/15)

Oh yum! I need to start making bread more.. This bagels look/sound delicious!


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## siege (19/4/15)

Just baked my first loaf with no bakers yeast






1kg flour, 1 pint bottle conditioned double IPA, a bit of salt, sugar and butter

It was a 24 hour ferment with no knocking back, now I'm wondering if I should have knocked it and given it another day?
But then I wouldn't be eating it for lunch now. And it's deliciously malty.


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## Engibeer (25/5/15)

siege said:


> Just baked my first loaf with no bakers yeast
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From everything I've read, "knocking back" is a really important part of flavour development.

That looks like it has risen quite a lot; I think if you knocked it back and gave it another 24 it would have over proved and the glutens would have collapsed.

With that small quantity of yeast I imagine it would have taken quite a while to get going.

Personally (and it's hard to know without seeing how quick it's rising) I reccon it would have been best to knock it back, shape it and give it another 1-2hrs rise; I would say at full yeast activity that would be enough.


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## Airgead (25/5/15)

Knocking back has nothing to do with flavour (directly) but much to do with texture. Its the fermentation that develops flavour so a long, slow rise will be more flavourful than a arm, quick one. Up to a point, if you let it over rise, it will collapse as the glutens aren't strong enough. With a really long rise, the top can dry out a bit. When that happens, it stops expanding and gas bubbles form underneath which separates the crust from the load while baking. I think that's what happened with the loaf above.

Knocking back collapses the first batch of gas bubbles that form and fives a closer textured loaf. It also means it needs to rise again which leads to more flavour development due to the extended rise.

I prefer an open textured loaf so I don't knock back. I develop flavour by doing a cool rise (in winter, overnight).

Cheers
Dave


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## Engibeer (25/5/15)

I just purchased the LaRousse "Book of Bread"

Some great recipes, techniques and rules to follow. It goes into great detail to discuss flour quality, temperatures etc.

I've never been able to make Ciabatta before, but as a result of this book I can now quite successfully make an awesome ciabatta.

Looking forward to baking some more recipes from this book.

Results attached.


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## drsmurto (25/5/15)

Bread machine sourdough. 

Decided to have another go at using the bread machine to bake a loaf of sourdough. 50/50 white/wholemeal with most of my sourdough culture. 500g of flour total.

Setup a custom method for the kneading and first proof. 20 mins of kneading followed by 2 x 90 minute rising cycles. After that, took the basket out and put it in the fridge for 24 hours. Took it out of the fridge and left it on the kitchen bench for 24 hours. Back in the bread machine on a bake only setting @140C for 60 minutes. 

Success! Minimal effort, maximum result.


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## Dave70 (7/7/15)

Is there a trick to getting wholemeal wheat to rise like the store bought stuff? 
The last few I've done have been good on flavor, but somewhat brick-like. Using about 450g flour to 400ml water, 2 teaspoons of yeast and a handful of stuff like flax, wheat berries and oats.


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## Mardoo (7/7/15)

Not easy, but it's totally possible. Those light wholemeal loaves are usually also technological triumphs.

You'll need to get hard winter wheat because you want a higher protein (aka gluten) percentage. The fresher it's ground the better off you'll be. Find the hippy store in your area and you may find a good one that grinds flour fresh from good bread wheat.

The easiest way to raise gluten percentage is to add gluten flour, sometimes called vital wheat gluten here. Too much and the bread will become very tough. Either that or go with 50/50 white/wholemeal or thereabouts. Then it's not wholemeal though 

You can often get a better rise on wholemeal flours if you are using sourdough to rise. If you can hand knead you may find you get better results.

Also, extra additives like oats and seeds will often drag it down. Get the basic bread right first, then begin adding adjuncts until you get a result you're happy with.


----------



## chrisso81 (12/7/15)

First loaf of bread ever, following Richard Bertinet's method from the book 'Dough', bit dense but there really is something awesome about hot bread straight from the oven slathered in butter!


----------



## chrisso81 (12/7/15)

Hmmm, maybe that Epic Lupulingus has something to do with the loaf being upside down!


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## Airgead (12/7/15)

So light you need to catch it on a cooling rack to stop it floating away...


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## MelbPhil (15/7/15)

I've decided to give sourdough a go. Never made bread before so jumping right into the deep end. 

I've been using the Bread and Butter project book.

First loaf had lots of flavour but had no rise in it what so ever. I reckon my starter had over ripened and had nothing left in it. I used a sachet kit for the second loaf: the dough came up well which was a good reference point, and it rose too which was also another good learning experience.

I made a white sourdough loaf this week using only my starter and it came up trumps. Got plenty of air into this time and tasty as. I think my problem was using my starter to long after its last feed. I reckon if I can replicate this form two more times then I might try something harder than a white sourdough. I'll have to get some pictures up.


----------



## Hpal (4/8/15)

I've been making sourdough for about 2 weeks now, happy with the results


----------



## Fylp (4/8/15)

I've been making sourdough for about a year. Just started using about 1/4 wholemeal spelt.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (10/4/16)

I am not that keen on a sourdough bread but I have a recipe which calls for vinegar if a sourdough starter isn't available for making a rye loaf, why is this?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (10/4/16)

Vinegar makes it taste sour


----------



## mr_wibble (10/4/16)

Dave70 said:


> Is there a trick to getting wholemeal wheat to rise like the store bought stuff?
> The last few I've done have been good on flavor, but somewhat brick-like. Using about 450g flour to 400ml water, 2 teaspoons of yeast and a handful of stuff like flax, wheat berries and oats.


Store-bought bread is (probably) made using the "Chorleywood" process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

The dough mechanically beaten under varying air-pressures.

The amount of yeast really make a difference in the rise, but 2 teaspoons in a 450g loaf sounds like a lot. 
I typically use 1.5 teaspoons in a 600 gram loaf - but that's not wholemeal.

You could try chucking in a bit of bread improver, it really makes a difference.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (10/4/16)

Our family are all agreed that we like the Rye the best, I am not to keen on the sugar content and I have noticed that additives do impede the rise of the loaf, also wholemeal bought in a supermarket may not really be wholemeal.
I will try the vinegar in the Rye bread, the recipes I have tried have had to much sugar. I think that is why the kids like the Rye, it is the sugar content.


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## indica86 (10/4/16)

some commercial rye is good.
my old man used to have one which is still in woolies, can't find the brand right now,,,


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/4/16)

I am a Rye bread fan, love its dense texture and flavour

I use the bread mix's from these guys.Have always had great succes with their flours's An independent mil, family owned. They did a story on ABC Landline about them last year. Was very interesting

http://www.laucke.com.au/Catalog/breadmixes


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## Dave70 (11/4/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I am a Rye bread fan, love its dense texture and flavour
> 
> I use the bread mix's from these guys.Have always had great succes with their flours's An independent mil, family owned. They did a story on ABC Landline about them last year. Was very interesting
> 
> http://www.laucke.com.au/Catalog/breadmixes


They look like the shot, available at Wollies to. I'm thinking I'll be better off with professionally prepared product and adding my seedy and grainy bits a little at a time and see how it goes. 

So. Do you re-hydrate the yeast first or just throw it straight in the mix?


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## wide eyed and legless (11/4/16)

You don't have to re-hydrate the yeast in those kits, be careful with any additions (salt) some of the premixes have the salt in them.


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## Dave70 (11/4/16)

No salt additions, just stuff like linseed, pepitas, oats and so on. I like my bread a meal in itself. 


Which according to my dear old departed nan, it was. Once fried in beef dripping anyway..


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/4/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You don't have to re-hydrate the yeast in those kits,


Try saying that on a brewers forum......


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/4/16)

Might try their Turkish bread recipe. My kids are particularly fond of turkish bread

http://www.laucke.com.au/trade-baker-recipes

Turkish Bread


The following is a basic recipe & make up instructions, please note the dough will need to be very slack and will be difficult to handle.



Ingredients
• Bakers Flour 500g
• Salt 10g 
• Improver 4g
• Oil 5g 
• Dried yeast 10g
Method 
This is mixed into a very slack dough using approx 300ml of warm milk & the rest warm water to at least 700ml.
This must be mixed very well to develop the dough.......a lot more than you would think considering how slack the dough is.
This is then tipped/poured into a container to rest for approx. 45mins. It should just collapse when firmly pushed with a finger.
Using very wet hands, the dough is divided into pieces, roll or loaf size, & then dropped onto a bed of semolina to rest again.
After another 20- 30mins, the dough pieces are carefully lifted using both sets of fingers and placed onto trays.
Whilst doing this, the pieces should be slightly stretched to give an oval/oblong shape.
Once on the tray the dough is washed with a mixture of yoghurt & water, and then sprinkled with sesame seeds (black ones too)
Then bake in a hot oven( 250c).
Once cooled, the excess sharps can be brushed off.


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## drsmurto (11/4/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Our family are all agreed that we like the Rye the best, I am not to keen on the sugar content and I have noticed that additives do impede the rise of the loaf, also wholemeal bought in a supermarket may not really be wholemeal.
> I will try the vinegar in the Rye bread, the recipes I have tried have had to much sugar. I think that is why the kids like the Rye, it is the sugar content.


Not sure why you would add sugar to bread other than if you were trying to recreate what passes for bread in a supermarket.

I love rye bread as well but not a fan of the breadmixes which contain a range of additives that aren't necessary. You can buy flour by itself, including rye flour. Much like brewing, I love having complete control over the process, i add only what i want to add.

My standard sandwich loaf, made in a breadmachine, is a rye/wholemeal/white flour blend. Using the longest program on the machine to allow it more time to prove and then bake for longer to get a good crust. Flour, salt, water, yeast and sometimes when the mood takes me, olive oil. The result is a good loaf that I cut thick for awesome sandwiches and great for toast too. Family enjoy it, haven't bought bread in years. 

I use Allied Mills flours in 25kg bags.

I went through a phase of only baking bread in the oven, either on a stone or in a bread tin but since the first kid arrived 5 years ago, I've spent more time understanding what is possible with a breadmachine, including real sourdough.

My 5 c.


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## wobbly (11/4/16)

DrSmurto said:


> I've spent more time understanding what is possible with a breadmachine, including real sourdough.
> 
> My 5 c.


Dr Smurto

Could you please post some more information on how you have made "real Sour Dough" bread in a bread machine ie machine type, settings, setting for kneading, rest times and bake times temperature setting would be great

We/I make our own bread in a Panasonic Bread Machine using our own mixture of white spelt flour, wholemeal spelt flour, Milk powder, salt, dash of oliver oil, dry yeast and rehydrated Chia seed 

In the past I tried making/baking natural fermented bread (with a Rye Flour starter) but could not get our oven hot enough to fully bake the bread in the center before we had issues with the crust

Would be most interested in having another go but with the bread machine 

Wobbly


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## Airgead (11/4/16)

I'm still making my sourdough the old school way. By hand. With 2 teenagers to feed I'm now up to 7 loaves a week. I bake on the weekend and freeze the result. 

I'm a fan of the Demeter stone ground flour. I buy the 12.5kg bags in bulk. I usually use a mix of unbleached white bakers flour, wholemeal flour, rye and wholemeal spelt. 

I love the taste of rye but hate kneeling the stuff. Low protein sticky orribleness. My trick with rye is to mix it with spelt. The extra protein in the spelt balances out the rye and makes it workable. My usual rye mix would be 1.2kg of sourdough starter, 600g white, 900g each of rye and spelt, 60g salt and water to around 70% hydration (about 2l). Tasty.

And yes, that is about 5 and a half kilos of dough to kneed by hand. 4-500 turns French style is what I do. Keeps me fit.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/4/16)

Mmm...Spelt... That makes a really different loaf, nice and nutty

I just use the Luacke Wallaby flour for run of the mill bread/pizza. Its pretty good stuff


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## drsmurto (11/4/16)

wobbly said:


> Dr Smurto
> 
> Could you please post some more information on how you have made "real Sour Dough" bread in a bread machine ie machine type, settings, setting for kneading, rest times and bake times temperature setting would be great
> 
> ...


I gave a brief description a few posts back - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/24339-bread-porn/?p=1288346

I have a Breville BM600 - http://www.productreview.com.au/p/breville-bbm600-ikon-baker-s-oven.html (ignore the bad reviews, some people shouldn't be allowed to use anything more complicated than a fork).

No program on the machine allows you to complete a sourdough cycle in 1 go, the longest prove cycle is 90 mins and that's far too short for sourdough. At least on my machine, a newer model may be more flexible than that. I use a 'custom setting' on the machine. So I 'cheat' and use the machine to knead the dough (20 mins) and do the first rise in the machine (90 mins) and leave it there for longer until the dough has almost doubled in size. I then allow it to reshape the dough before i pull the dough out, remove the paddle and put it back in with the smoothest side facing up. Whack it in the fridge (dough in the breadmachine tin covered in clingfilm) for 24 hours and then back out of the fridge for up to 24 hours to allow it to prove to the required volume. Then in the breadmachine for 60 min @ 140C. So apart from removing the paddle, which is unnecessary, the whole time from flour to bread it is in the breadmachine tin.

EDIT - I'm assuming you know how to create a sourdough mother and feed that up to the appropriate size before adding that to the breadmachine along with the rest of the flour, water and salt.

I still do what Airgead does for my larger batches of sourdough and this does give me better looking loaves using the fancy proving baskets but using a breadmachine keeps the mess down, minimises my time and produces a good sourdough loaf. Not as good a crust as when baking in an oven but still pretty good and still with the sourdough tang. 

I must admit, the best loaf of sourdough I've made was when i timed it perfectly to take the dough with me next door for a pizza night with the neighbours. After we'd eaten all the pizza we could we chucked the dough in the wood pizza oven and it had amazing oven spring and a great crust.


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## indica86 (11/4/16)

Love sourdough. Make pizzas with it every week - at least.
So nice and tasty.

When I remember I use some of the same dough for a loaf. Cooks well in the Weber Q on a hot stone.
Wallaby flour + organic rye.


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## wobbly (11/4/16)

DrSmurto said:


> I gave a brief description a few posts back - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/24339-bread-porn/?p=1288346
> 
> EDIT - I'm assuming you know how to create a sourdough mother and feed that up to the appropriate size before adding that to the breadmachine along with the rest of the flour, water and salt.


 Thanks for that. I missed your previous post not sure how!!

Yes I am OK with making the sourdough starter culture/mother using wholemeal rye flour

My previous attempts at making sourdough bread were based on the book by artisan baker Yoke Mardewi titled "Wild Sourdough"

Wobbly


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## Dave70 (11/4/16)

Please to see you can customize your recipes using a bread maker. Assumed it was one of those 'only works with our brand of bread mix' deals. Time for a new addition to the kitchen me thinks. 
Love getting the kids involved, but Christ, what a mess..

They'll be happy sticking with chapati making and hammering out shapes with the Play Doh cutters I'm sure I'm sure.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/4/16)

mmm...chapait/rotti


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## wide eyed and legless (11/4/16)

DrSmurto said:


> Not sure why you would add sugar to bread other than if you were trying to recreate what passes for bread in a supermarket.


I think we would have to ask Paul Hollywood that question, its his recipe I followed, and his other rye breads have some sort of sweetener in them, as he is the king of the Crust I just followed his recipe, a bit like brewing really when one is learning we follow the recipe until we say hold on this isn't what I was expecting and we tweak the recipe until we get it right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/scandinavian_rye_bread_93361


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/4/16)

Its no really a lot of sugar. Being dark brown sugar its getting closer to the molasses rather than just straight white sugar

Would add an interesting flavour


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/4/16)

Was doing some more research into the use of sugars by renown bakers, its to do with making a better crust on the bread, I have been making a bread using 2 tablespoons of molasses along with wheat germ and strong flour, makes the most awesome toast.


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## indica86 (12/4/16)

Water sprayed in the oven and on the loaf helps with crust too.

I was a pizza maker for years and still can't work out why sugar is used.
The only real benefit is it made the dough rise faster and brown quicker. Just make it earlier for a longer rise.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/4/16)

indica86 said:


> Water sprayed in the oven and on the loaf helps with crust too.


I have done that.

Squirt bottle and give it a spray at the start and about half way thru. seemed to work

I did read somewhere that some bread oven have spray jets just for this purpose


----------



## indica86 (12/4/16)

Steam bake. It's used for all sorts of things. Croissants as well.

Anyone make Bagels? Love them.
Sourdough Bagels are the shit and get smashed very quickly here.



> BAGEL
> 
> 
> Ingredient
> ...


----------



## Dave70 (13/4/16)

Nothing like impulse buying. Bought a machine on the way home yesterday, had fresh bread by 9.30 pm.
Used a basic recipe just to get my eye in on the fast setting (1.55) so it was always going to be a little underdone, as you can see. 
Stuck in a far more seedy and interesting recipe after it finished and set the timer to be ready for the wife and kids breakfast this morning. Worked like a charm. 
Not as artisan as making it by hand perhaps, but about 1000% less hassle. And you can always just make the dough and shape it by hand if you like.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/16)

I am not a big fan of breadmakers......but it does take all the fun out of kneading the dough


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## Dave70 (13/4/16)

Yeah... but where do you draw the line?


----------



## Mardoo (13/4/16)

DrSmurto said:


> You can buy flour by itself, including rye flour. Much like brewing, I love having complete control over the process, i add only what i want to add.


You seem like the type who might actually do this. Get yourself a home stone mill. You will never, ever regret it!


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/16)

Dave70 said:


> Yeah... but where do you draw the line?


Well.... you may need to buy more grain

Barley flour is made from milling pearl barley, or whole grain barley that's had its outer husk removed. You can use barley flour as a substitute for part of the flour in a baking recipe for health purposes and to achieve certain variations in texture. However, because of its low-gluten content, you shouldn't substitute barley flour for all of the flour called for in a recipe.

Health Benefits
Barley flour is a healthier alternative to using white and wheat flour in baked goods. According to Coleen and Bob Simmons, authors of "Cooking with Grains," barley is a low-fat, low-cholesterol grain that's high in complex carbohydrates, fiber, protein, and certain vitamins and minerals. Although barley is significantly lower in gluten than other flours, like wheat flour, people with Celiac disease or an allergy to wheat should still use caution when using barley flour as a substitute in cooking, as it is not 100 percent gluten-free.

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Gluten
Barley flour lacks sufficient gluten for many baked good recipes. When making baked goods that require gluten, combine barley flour and wheat flour to comprise the total flour content the recipe calls for. The more the baked good needs to rise, the less barley flour should be used, proportionately. For loaves of yeast bread, the barley flour should only constitute about 20 to 25 percent of the total flour content. For flat breads, you can use a little more. For quick breads and cookies, you can use barley flour for up to half of the flour content. It's inadvisable to use much more than 50 percent barley flour in any baking recipe.

Proper Measurements
In baking, precise measurements are essential to achieve the desired results. Freshly ground barley settles after a few days, meaning that its volume appears greater immediately after grinding than after it's been sitting a while. Therefore, to accurately measure barley flour for a recipe, don't use freshly ground barley unless it's had a few days to settle. Otherwise, you may not have enough flour in your recipe. One way to help freshly ground barley flour settle faster is to tap the container firmly against the counter.

Quality Differences
Baked goods made with barley flour, breads in particular, have a different consistency than those made with other kinds of flour. Barley flour makes baked goods moister than flour made from other grains. Barley flour also gives baked goods a cake-like texture as opposed to a bread-like one.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/4/16)

I watched a Rick Stein in India episode and he was trying a Kati or Kathi, a Calcutta street food which is a wrap with whatever ingredients you like inside. Looked pretty good, picked out a recipe, for the bread wrap I needed some Maida flour, drove down to Hindustani Imports, a huge warehouse and shop, as you drive into the driveway the smell of the spices is magnificent.
Went in and asked for the Maida flour he gave me a bag of plain flour, I said no Maida flour, he told me Maida flour translated is plain flour, but the 40 minute round trip wasn't in vain bought Spelt flour $4.50 / kilo, Rye flour $2.95/ kilo and Caraway seeds $3.35/ 250 gram plus a heap of spices and grains. So this week the Kati is on the menu, maybe with a vegetable curry filling.


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## indica86 (13/4/16)

Grab some atta next time legless, great for chapattis and adding into bread too.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/4/16)

I have seen the Atta flour around, didn't realise what it was for, and the wrap is just a Roti.


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## indica86 (13/4/16)

It's great for roti too.
It is a very finely ground wholemeal - you don't get bits of bran tearing the gluten strands that you work so hard to make.

Roti/ chapatti are interchangeable really. Unless you are talking Malaysian roti, those things are amazing.

I recall the chapatti people just slapping them to make them, shit they were quick.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/16)

My rotti/chapati is just

Bread flour
Yoghurt - plain or greek... ( Yoplaite doesnt cut it flavour wise... )
Yeast
Water

Let rise for an hour or 2, doesnt really matter.

Roll a golfball size out flat to the size of a plate

Place on very hot skillet or BBQ plate WITHOUT oil

Done in about 30secs


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## indica86 (13/4/16)

genuine chapatti doesn't knead yeast.
Just flour, water, salt.


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## Danwood (13/4/16)

Bread humour...I loaves it !


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/16)

indica86 said:


> genuine chapatti doesn't knead yeast.
> Just flour, water, salt.


Yeah I know that, but yeast gives it some thing extra

Who cares if they are not traditional, they taste awesome :icon_drool2:


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/16)

Danwood said:


> Bread humour...I loaves it !


Hope you pair are not taking the pith..

Cause Im not loafing


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## mr_wibble (14/4/16)

Dave70 said:


> Nothing like impulse buying. Bought a machine on the way home yesterday, had fresh bread by 9.30 pm.
> Used a basic recipe just to get my eye in on the fast setting (1.55) so it was always going to be a little underdone, as you can see.
> Stuck in a far more seedy and interesting recipe after it finished and set the timer to be ready for the wife and kids breakfast this morning. Worked like a charm.
> Not as artisan as making it by hand perhaps, but about 1000% less hassle. And you can always just make the dough and shape it by hand if you like.


When doing the "fast" loaf, often it helps to add a bit of extra yeast (1/4 teaspoon) as the rise-time is much shorter.


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## drsmurto (14/4/16)

Mardoo said:


> You seem like the type who might actually do this. Get yourself a home stone mill. You will never, ever regret it!


Bastard! Now i have several stone mills in my eBay watchlist and a few more retailers in my home baking site bookmarks.

My daughter is growing a few wheat plants in the vegie garden too....


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/4/16)

She will need more than a few plants...


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## Mardoo (15/4/16)

DrSmurto said:


> Bastard! Now i have several stone mills in my eBay watchlist and a few more retailers in my home baking site bookmarks.
> 
> My daughter is growing a few wheat plants in the vegie garden too....


This is the one I currently covet, motorised with the optional pulley. I had to leave mine behind in the States when I emigrated here in '97. Then my Dad gave it away. I miss it like I miss my Mum, who gave her mill to me. I grew up with fresh made bread from wheat we milled, and of course went on to become a baker. She was the Ubermum. (She paid for it with sanity.) It may be easier to find a "natural" bakery that mills daily and arrange to drop round every week to get fresh flour.

Freshly milled corn polenta :icon_drool2: Milled corn goes rancid in a couple days, which is what makes it bitter. Freshly milled it's sweet and floral. Damn I miss that mill.


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## wide eyed and legless (15/4/16)

I read two books last night Mardoo one about making bread using the Kitchen Aid (which I am currently using) and a book on artisan artisan bread making, what I noticed is the artisan bread used very little yeast and no strong bread flour, the bread was left to_ ferment _in a fridge for up to 80 hours (max) I am keen to have a crack at it with an overnight ferment.
Have you tried anything like this, the yeast used was 1/2 a tsp for quite large loaves.


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## Mardoo (15/4/16)

Yeah, I ended up doing mostly 36-48 hour fermentations at around 8C (first rise, second rise, loaf - loaf was warmer), entirely leavened with sours. Key is a good sour, moisture control and cool, but not cold, temperature. Not that you need a high tech system, you just need to make sure the atmosphere is moist without falling drops of condensation.

Being Autumn this is a good time to head out to a non-sprayed vineyard and get a couple bunches of unwashed grapes. Use those to start your sour. Usually they make damn good sours.


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## Mardoo (15/4/16)

PS: Just chuck the bunches stems and all into a 50/50 water/flour mix. No need to get fussy. You need the yeasts and bacteria on the onside of the bunch.


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## Dave70 (15/4/16)

Might be a trap for new bread machine players, but after preparing a batch and setting the timer last night. I was greeted with gooey semi mixed shitfight this morning. Since the method involves adding the wet ingredients last I'm guessing the water soaked into flour around the edges in the four hour layover before the machine went into its kneading cycle. Odd, because the last overnighter came out fine.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/4/16)

I think that might be one of the reasons that those bread machines spend their lives adorning the inside of a shed or cupboard, my mum got one one they first hit the market, when there was a couple of bread specialty shops in every suburb selling all the breads you could think of,(my favourite was the potato bread) but they have all gone now.

I read the book Artisan Bread for Beginners twice more last night, feel guilty because its an e book and I only gave it a 2 star rating after I finished it the first time I read it, now I have got my head around it I would have given it more, though the main reason I gave it 2 stars was because he reckoned tap water kills yeast and the authors name is Dragan.
But now I am inspired to go the artisan bread route, and along with my artisan beer I can feel an anagram of bread coming on, along with a newsboy cap.


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## AJS2154 (16/4/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I read the book Artisan Bread for Beginners twice more last night, feel guilty because its an e book and I only gave it a 2 star rating .......... the main reason I gave it 2 stars was because he reckoned tap water kills yeast and the authors name is Dragan.


No need to feel bad, wide eyed, you have very reasonable and rational reasons to give only 2 stars. Carry on. Anthony


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## indica86 (16/4/16)

Sourdough.
White and rye flour with sesame seeds, sunflower seeds and quinoa. So good and chewy.


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## malt and barley blues (16/4/16)

Best bread I have ever had is Hovis, a granary style bread had a quick read through these posts but never found any info of anyone making it, anyone tried.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/4/16)

Stolen from the netz

http://www.thebreadkitchen.com/recipes/hovis-recipe-old-style/

Hovis (as it used to taste!)
The Hovis wheatgerm loaf of today is not the same as the Hovis of 35 years ago. In this Hovis recipe I attempt to recreate the Hovis taste of my childhood.

Makes: 1 loaf

Ingredients

500 g (16 oz) strong white flour
300 g (9½ fl oz) lukewarm water
55 g (2 oz) wheatgerm
1 tbsp vegetable oil
1 tbsp dark or blackstrap molasses
1½ tsp dried yeast
1½ tsp salt

Instructions

Add the molasses to the lukewarm water and stir to dissolve. Add the yeast, stir and leave for 10 minutes for the yeast to activate.
Mix the flour, salt and wheatgerm in a bowl. Add the water/molasses/yeast and the oil and mix to a soft and slightly tacky dough.
Knead the dough well for 10 minutes until smooth and elastic.
Place the dough in a lightly-greased bowl, cover and leave in a warm place until the dough has doubled in size.
Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface and knead for 2-3 minutes.
Shape the dough and place in a greased loaf tin. Place in a large plastic bag and leave in warm place for about an hour or until the loaf almost fills the tin.
Bake at 190°C/375°F fan oven, 210°C/420°F conventional oven for 35 minutes.
Turn the loaf out onto a wire rack and allow to cool.


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## malt and barley blues (16/4/16)

Lots of attempts have been made to replicate this bread, it is still secret what goes into a Hovis loaf and in the UK Hovis sell the mixes for home bakers to bake the old style Hovis.
When I was young there was no sliced bread, when it did eventually arrive the only one at the time who did not conform was Hovis.


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## drsmurto (16/4/16)

Rye sourdough. Very dense but toasted and smeared with a homemade zucchini 'baba ganoush' it was sensational. 

Pain in the arse to knead but i perservered. Left it outside in the laundry overnight for the slow, final rise.


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## wide eyed and legless (11/5/16)

Having been rained off the garden duties back to domestic duties made this from the recipe above posted by stu. Voted by my daughters to be best yet. 
Ingredients

500 g (16 oz) strong white flour
300 g (9½ fl oz) lukewarm water
55 g (2 oz) wheatgerm
1 tbsp vegetable oil
1 tbsp dark or blackstrap molasses
1½ tsp dried yeast
1½ tsp salt


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## Frothy1 (13/7/16)

My first crack using a wild yeast sourdough starter.


Pretty happy with the results.


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## Jens-Kristian (14/7/16)

That is a thing of pure beauty, Frothy. 

What's your recipe?


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## Frothy1 (14/7/16)

Jens-Kristian said:


> That is a thing of pure beauty, Frothy.
> 
> What's your recipe?




I went with Jacob Burton's directions , you waste a bit of flour but you end up with a very active leaven.

I followed his next couple of videos but I added 2 tablespoons of malt extract for flavor and the yeast went bloody crazy after I added that.

I pulled it out of the oven at 06:00 hours on a school morning and the kids demolished it.


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## drsmurto (14/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> Might be a trap for new bread machine players, but after preparing a batch and setting the timer last night. I was greeted with gooey semi mixed shitfight this morning. Since the method involves adding the wet ingredients last I'm guessing the water soaked into flour around the edges in the four hour layover before the machine went into its kneading cycle. Odd, because the last overnighter came out fine.


Interestingly, my breadmachine instructions say to do the opposite for overnight/delay settings. Liquids first, flours and then yeast on top. I don't use this setting often as I prefer to check on the kneading cycle to see how it is going. When i do I create a little indent in the flour in the middle to place the yeast in so that it doesn't mix with any water prior to the start of the kneading cycle.



wide eyed and legless said:


> I think that might be one of the reasons that those bread machines spend their lives adorning the inside of a shed or cupboard, my mum got one one they first hit the market, when there was a couple of bread specialty shops in every suburb selling all the breads you could think of,(my favourite was the potato bread) but they have all gone now.


I think this is more a case of a tradesman blaming their tools. I've been using a breadmachine for more than 7 years now to make the family sandwich bread and fruit loaf. I also use it for pizza dough and kneading other bread doughs. Haven't bought bread in this time. So easy and the result leave the crustless sandwich 'bread' for dead.

My parents and the inlaws have also been successfully using breadmachines for years. 

Much like coffee machines and other kitchen appliances, a little bit of effort to understand how they work rather than thinking they are something magical and you can get so much benefit from them. 

That said, for good, crusty bread (ciabatta, baguettes, sourdough etc) I prefer shaping by hand and proving in specialised baskets to give me more control over the process and bake in an oven on a pizza stone.


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## wide eyed and legless (19/7/16)

I think my mother gave up with the bread machine because she couldn't keep up 5 Sons and a Daughter we went through a lot of bread and it wasn't cheap making your own with a bread maker. What I would like to know how many here let their dough rise twice? In New York recently and an artisan bread maker I spoke to only let his bread rise once, plus he added vinegar and following his recipe it really is very good and it doesn't taste of vinegar.


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## indica86 (19/7/16)

I do twice if using yeast.
I find it tastes better.
One long one for sourdough.


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## Mardoo (19/7/16)

Commercial-yeast raised I often only raised once when I had a crapload of bread to get out in a short time, when I was baking professionally. Sour raised always twice. With yeast you'll get a better texture when you raise twice. With sours you'll get better flavour and you usually need the second raise to increase loft/cell count. That's my experience at least.

Edit: Noice Indica86! I love the way experience presents itself differently.


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## indica86 (19/7/16)

Yeah it's good.
Also depends on the sour culture I suppose.
Mine has been with me for years and I know it very well. Which is the major factor with sourdough I think, knowing your little friend in the fridge.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

Mardoo said:


> With yeast you'll get a better texture when you raise twice.


I always do 2 raisings.

Much better flavour and texture

Interestingly, as a side note, we have a local baker here who makes awesome bread, $2.60 a loaf at the local servo/corner shop , but they sell shit loads of it, and it lasts better than that 99c bread

I always buy a loaf every Monday of toast loaf :icon_drool2:


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## drsmurto (20/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I think my mother gave up with the bread machine because she couldn't keep up 5 Sons and a Daughter we went through a lot of bread and it wasn't cheap making your own with a bread maker. What I would like to know how many here let their dough rise twice? In New York recently and an artisan bread maker I spoke to only let his bread rise once, plus he added vinegar and following his recipe it really is very good and it doesn't taste of vinegar.


How is the price any different using a bread maker or an oven?


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## wide eyed and legless (31/7/16)

She could bake 8 loaves in one go in the oven, couldn't do that in a bread maker.


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## drsmurto (31/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> She could bake 8 loaves in one go in the oven, couldn't do that in a bread maker.


Fair enough. A breadmaker can't compete with that. 

You did mention cost in your statement which threw me as the cost is the same.


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## fortmonty (2/8/16)

Nothing like home made bread .

I get some going in the wood fired oven once in a blue moon , as I'm to busy making pizza most of the time.

This is typical pane di casa. The bread is crusty and the crumb is full of air pockets. Its ideal for bruschetta or just eating with some
olives cheese and a bit of home made salami. Then again its great just dipped in some olive oil or spread with butter.

The shapes on the plait is not as good as I would like it to be , but then again after you slice or tear it up whose to know ?


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## indica86 (2/8/16)

^^^
Nice.
Yeasted or sourdough>


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## fortmonty (2/8/16)

Yeast . Though I have made a whole grain version using my own sour dough culture .


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## wide eyed and legless (5/8/16)

Have been trying a few things recently, found that using the Kitchen-aid for the kneading, the dough hook just picks up the dough and the whole lot spins so I have to stand there holding a wooden spoon to stretch the dough from the hook, have been using the vinegar in the dough mix, find the best explanation for the vinegar is to lower the pH allowing the yeast to work better, not sure about the other explanations that it also acts as a mould inhibitor.
But the easiest method to make bread I have found is the no knead and leaving it for a long ferment, have tried additions like seeds, and rosemary and garlic and my next one will be rosemary olives and garlic.
http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/11376-no-knead-bread


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## fortmonty (5/8/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Have been trying a few things recently, found that using the Kitchen-aid for the kneading, the dough hook just picks up the dough and the whole lot spins so I have to stand there holding a wooden spoon to stretch the dough from the hook, have been using the vinegar in the dough mix, find the best explanation for the vinegar is to lower the pH allowing the yeast to work better, not sure about the other explanations that it also acts as a mould inhibitor.
> But the easiest method to make bread I have found is the no knead and leaving it for a long ferment, have tried additions like seeds, and rosemary and garlic and my next one will be rosemary olives and garlic.
> http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/11376-no-knead-bread


Great link. The process is very similar to how I make my pizza dough which is pretty much a no knead method , though I call it the " slap and go " method .

I also suppose if you are pressed for time you could increase the yeast dosage as it really isn't a sourdough , but rather extended "commercial yeast" ferment not true sourdough from a home grown mother culture. 

I like his use of the pot to maintain moisture so he gets maximum steam . I have to give his method a go, I reckon it would be great casalinga bread.


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## Airgead (5/8/16)

I've done a few no kneeds as well. Great technique.

I don't have enough pots (or time) to bake enough loaves for the family that way so I tend to stick with the traditional way. Plus I kneed the exercise (see what I did there). 

BTW - increasing the yeast dosage doesn't work as the dough needs the long fermentation period to develop. Adding more yeast shortens the time and makes a much weaker dough which collapses. 

I suppose you could add extra yeast and also work the dough a little to get a hybrid method going.


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## wide eyed and legless (5/8/16)

A slow ferment in the fridge does add to the flavour, I have left mine for 4 days but I have read where a week is still OK because it is so simple and takes up no real time to make leaves me to support this method, but as Airgead mentioned it is the space in the oven, I have a second larger oven outdoors but only the one dutch oven. I am contemplating between getting a second one or one of those heavy glazed crock pots the Chinese use, I would I prefer the enameled iron pot for the heat retention but I will probably give the glazed crock pot a go but another option is to make up a load of dough and just leave it in the fridge fermenting and take it out as needed.
http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/the-food-lab-the-science-of-no-knead-dough.html


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## indica86 (5/8/16)

Really though, if you are going to do that why not sourdough? **** bread yeast.


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## wide eyed and legless (5/8/16)

That's the beauty and simplicity of it, you can substitute a sourdough starter for the instant yeast, 1/4 teaspoon substituted bu a 1/4 cup of sourdough starter.


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## wide eyed and legless (21/8/16)

Put to the test that a six year old could make 'No Knead' bread my 7 year old daughter made this Olive Garlic and Rosemary bread, all I did was put it into the Dutch Oven and take it out.


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## drsmurto (22/8/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Put to the test that a six year old could make 'No Knead' bread my 7 year old daughter made this Olive Garlic and Rosemary bread, all I did was put it into the Dutch Oven and take it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What recipe and method did your daughter use? My daughter is becoming quite interested in cooking and this looks like a great way of teaching her about bread making.


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## wide eyed and legless (22/8/16)

Basic no knead recipe I have been using, 450 g plain flour 1 1/2 tea spoons of salt 1/2 teaspoon of rapid dry yeast mix all dry ingredients together, stir in 360 ml of water until dough has formed, after 6 hours or so fold over in the bowl using a spatula leave overnight pour out dough onto a floured surface flatten down add 2 heaped tablespoons of fresh rosemary, 4 cloves of garlic chopped, one adult good handful of Kalamata olives which have been kept in red wine vinegar. Fold the dough and leave to rise once more for an hour set oven on 450 C heat up dutch oven for 1/2 an hour place the dough in the hot dutch oven and bake for 1/2 an hour lid on and 15 to 20 minutes lid off. One tip I find useful is to put the dough on a sheet of baking paper so it can be lifted smoothly and put in the dutch oven.


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## drsmurto (22/8/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Basic no knead recipe I have been using, 450 g plain flour 1 1/2 tea spoons of salt 1/2 teaspoon of rapid dry yeast mix all dry ingredients together, stir in 360 ml of water until dough has formed, after 6 hours or so fold over in the bowl using a spatula leave overnight pour out dough onto a floured surface flatten down add 2 heaped tablespoons of fresh rosemary, 4 cloves of garlic chopped, one adult good handful of Kalamata olives which have been kept in red wine vinegar. Fold the dough and leave to rise once more for an hour set oven on 450 C heat up dutch oven for 1/2 an hour place the dough in the hot dutch oven and bake for 1/2 an hour lid on and 15 to 20 minutes lid off. One tip I find useful is to put the dough on a sheet of baking paper so it can be lifted smoothly and put in the dutch oven.


Cheers mate. I assume 450 is fahrenheit?


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## Airgead (22/8/16)

450c gets the crust nice and dark...


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## wide eyed and legless (22/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> Cheers mate. I assume 450 is fahrenheit?


Correct, my mistake putting C


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## wide eyed and legless (22/8/16)

Airgead said:


> I've done a few no kneeds as well. Great technique.
> 
> I don't have enough pots (or time) to bake enough loaves for the family that way so I tend to stick with the traditional way. Plus I kneed the exercise (see what I did there).


You might be interested in this one Airgead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRJfNB7T-zg


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## scooterism (22/8/16)

Just wondering is anyone here uses a Wondermill Jnr and if so, have you motorised it?

The wife bought one and she finds it a bit hard to grind..

I'm looking at the 'Motion Dynamics' motor for grain mills..

Any thoughts?

Cheers


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## arctic78 (22/8/16)

been doing the no knead method for years now an find it very convenient and very versatile. Great bread also.
have a great book on it but will have to fish it out to find the name. don't use it any more.
I have used sour dough starters and also beer yeast in the recipes and they all work great.
We leave ours around a week before baking. have two containers in the fridge at all times at different stages and just add to them as needed. We also still make other breads the traditional way but for simplicity no knead is the way to go


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## wide eyed and legless (23/8/16)

scooterism said:


> Just wondering is anyone here uses a Wondermill Jnr and if so, have you motorised it?
> 
> The wife bought one and she finds it a bit hard to grind..
> 
> ...


Your wife can get a 'bit' adapter and use a hand drill they sell them on Amazon.


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## Hpal (16/9/16)

First go at Turkish bread the other day with a really slack dough it came out superb.


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## evoo4u (16/9/16)




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## wide eyed and legless (17/12/16)

Made this 'Pide' after buying some interesting looking seeds called 'Kalonji' (Indian) Arabic translation 'Seeds of Blessing' also known as Nigella Sativa, great flavour addition, have been putting these seeds in all my bread.


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## indica86 (17/12/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> 'Kalonji'


The black seed often seen on Naan bread.


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## wide eyed and legless (17/12/16)

Thats the one, but on Google comes up as black caraway or black cumin seed but for me it looks like onion seeds,very tasty.


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## indica86 (17/12/16)

Also called black onion seed.


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## wide eyed and legless (17/12/16)

I'll go with that.


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## lagers44 (13/6/17)

Hi All,
I brewed a stout on the weekend and looked into the drained mashtun and started thinking...so I baked an Oat stout loaf. Quite tasty, I used 25% grain to flour but would go 50/50 next time.
Need to take the grain hydration into account or the dough becomes too wet.


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## Rod (13/6/17)

I have not looked at this topic so forgive me if this has already been posted

my local bread shop has just started making black charcoal sour dough , a bit different 

the site which follows best shows the bread

http://www.mydailysourdoughbread.com/charcoal-powder-sourdough-bread/


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/6/17)

Have started doing wholemeal and grain loaves now.

This is a Laucke* German Grain mix.. Has Kibbled Rye,Linseed, Wheat & Maize in it.

Its a pretty wet mix, but with extended proofing it comes out very nice and light.

Going to try it with a sourdough starter very soon

The old Kenwood mixer is the ducks when it comes to dough 






* No affiliation but their flour is the best I have used and easily available. And they are based in S.A


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## Dave70 (14/6/17)

Laukie is cat's whiskers. So is my bread machine. Purists may scoff, _meh_. Have at your kneading.
Their pizza dough mix delivers the goods every time, and the kids love making their own. Nice and light in even than less than ideal conditions ( pan and improvised Weber pizza oven)
I ate this, times two. And Stone & Wood beer, times six.


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## TwoCrows (14/6/17)

I recently used my bread machine to make a cheesy Jalapeno loaf.

This is the receipt I used for my bread machine.

Laucke white flour 2 cups.
Unprocessed brain 0.5 cups.
Laucke multigrain 0.5 cups.
100 grams Cheddar cheese. Chopped / diced.
3-4 Medium sized Jalapeño Chillies. Chopped / diced.
Bread yeast as recommended.
400 mls water.

Turned out great, it is a fantastic base for most fillings that go with cheese and chillies. That is just about anything.
I make this regularly with or without cheese and Jalapeno.

No picture sorry as it dosent last long.


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## good4whatAlesU (14/6/17)

Very nice. My wife and I haven't bought a loaf of bread in over 3 years. 

Chucking a mix into our breadmaker is faster than driving down to the shops to buy a loaf.


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## Airgead (14/6/17)

Dave70 said:


> Purists may scoff



Scoff.


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## drsmurto (24/6/17)

Cooler weather is perfect for long, slow sourdough ferments. This one had 2 x 12 hour rises.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/17)

I recently got a sourdough starter from Airghead......its 

Slowly feeding it up and looking forward to using it.

Damn thing smells amazing as a starter


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/17)

Dave70 said:


> Laukie is cat's whiskers. So is my bread machine.



Pfft....Kenwood kicks butt


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## malt and barley blues (11/7/17)

Kitchenaid rocks!


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## abyss (11/7/17)

****.




Dave70 said:


> Laukie is cat's whiskers. So is my bread machine. Purists may scoff, _meh_. Have at your kneading.
> Their pizza dough mix delivers the goods every time, and the kids love making their own. Nice and light in even than less than ideal conditions ( pan and improvised Weber pizza oven)
> I ate this, times two. And Stone & Wood beer, times six.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/7/17)

A mix of Luacke German Grain mix & Crusty White to make a "double batch"

yes..it is very nice


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## Jens-Kristian (23/8/17)

I haven't really done any brewing for a fairly extended time. Not because I don't want to, but because I just don't have the time to drink it. I'm working on dropping a shitload of weight, and beer is one of the things that I have *temporarily* relegated to the backseat. Sure, a bottle or two on the odd weekend, but that really is it for a while. 

Grain however... that's where it's at whether it's drinks or food. So, since I need that bit of 'making stuff' element to my life, I've baked bread every Friday for the past four or five months. This upcoming weekend, I'll be doing my first sourdough bread, so I'm really looking forward to that. 

In the meanwhile, here are a couple of earlier efforts (not sourdough). The dough for these is simple no-knead, and is always mixed on a Sunday or Monday and then baked on the Friday:






Bread must have a crust!


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## Mardoo (24/8/17)

Yum! I really miss making bread. Maybe I'll use teaching my daughter how as a means to get back to it.

If it matters to you, you can slash the top of the risen dough right before you put it in the oven, like you see in bakeries. The reason loaves are slashed is to control the way the top of the bread splits. The slashes are essentially expansion joints. You only need to go a couple cm deep. When the top of the loaf opens like yours have, you lose moisture from the inner crumb and shorten the shelf life. Sorry, geeking moment as an ex-professional  I'd eat that bread of yours in a second.


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## wide eyed and legless (24/8/17)

I have been putting more water than usual in my bread and getting better results. I am really starting to get worried about the machine handling the amount of dough I have been putting in + I have broken another spoon. Really started seriously looking at those semi professional mixers on Aliexpress.


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## Mardoo (24/8/17)

Bread requires serious grunt from a mixer.


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## Jens-Kristian (24/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> Yum! I really miss making bread. Maybe I'll use teaching my daughter how as a means to get back to it.
> 
> If it matters to you, you can slash the top of the risen dough right before you put it in the oven, like you see in bakeries. The reason loaves are slashed is to control the way the top of the bread splits. The slashes are essentially expansion joints. You only need to go a couple cm deep. When the top of the loaf opens like yours have, you lose moisture from the inner crumb and shorten the shelf life. Sorry, geeking moment as an ex-professional  I'd eat that bread of yours in a second.



Thanks, mate. I'm always happy to receive advice. I'm most certainly still learning and properly enjoying the process. I'll have a go at giving the two sourdough loaves I'm baking tomorrow a slash across the top.

The two loaves are:

1. A full wheat sourdough with cumin seeds.

and

B. Wholegrain rye, wheat and with a bit of crystal malt mixed into it, too.

I don't really follow recipes, other than a bit of 'method' and as a guide to 'how much of this and that' will work, as I'm much more interested in finding my own way through it. Much the same way that I do brewing. 

The wholegrain rye is a 'first attempt' at something I hope will turn out a bit German in style. From there, I'll be tweaking the next versions.


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## Mardoo (24/8/17)

Don't cut the rye too deep. It has less gluten and tears more easily.


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## Jens-Kristian (24/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> Don't cut the rye too deep. It has led gluten and tears more easily.



Thanks!  I'll be careful.


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## wide eyed and legless (6/9/17)

Mardoo said:


> Bread requires serious grunt from a mixer.


Been looking at the Bosch mixer and some of the Chinese ones up to 1000w, don't know if that means much, the one I am using is 300w.
Really should keep notes like when brewing, think I have hit the limitations on the water addition but can't remember exactly what it was, around 720 gram to 1150 flour, that is including the rye flour, loads of chia seeds and caraway seed.


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## SnailAle (27/9/17)

Multigrain from last week. Really tempted to start trying to make a sourdough starter soon.


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## Gigantorus (31/10/17)

Used some of my spent grain on Sunday and made these puppies. Turned out better than I expected.



Recipe is fairly simple too.


*Brewer’s Bread Recipe*



Ingredients:

3 cups spent grain (wet, straight from the mash tun)

1 ¼ cups warm water

¼ cups sugar

5 cups Plain Flour

1 teaspoon salt

1 egg beaten

¼ cups milk

2 teaspoons of bakers yeast


Instructions:


Mix yeast, water and sugar in a bowl to activate yeast. Allow 30 min for yeast to activate.


Add yeast starter, salt, egg, spent grain, and milk in a bowl and slowly add flour.


Knead dough until it is smooth and no longer sticky.


Place dough in a large greased bowl and cover it with a towel. Wait for dough to rise and double in size then punch down the dough. About 30mins.


Split your dough into the desired amount of loaves and place on a baking paper over a thin layer of cornmeal or flour.


Allow loaves to rise again (about 30mins), and then score the loaves with a knife.


Bake at 190C for 45 minutes or until the bread is desired colour and a knife comes out clean after being inserted into the center.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/10/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> *I have been putting more water than usual in my bread and getting better results*. I am really starting to get worried about the machine handling the amount of dough I have been putting in + I have broken another spoon. Really started seriously looking at those semi professional mixers on Aliexpress.



Me too..was doing 63% water but bumped it up to about 66-67% ( Luacke Crusty White )and mix in the Kenwood for 10mins at notch ~2

Bread seems much better with the extra H2 and longer mixing

Surprising how an extra 20-30ml can make a difference

I have now moved to Luacke Wallaby Flour so see how it goes $11 for 5kg bag. Its straight flour and needs salt & improver added


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## wide eyed and legless (31/10/17)

That's about the same percentage as mine about 700ml to 1150 flour I only use the Wallaby, don't put any improver in it, surprising how well it mixes, still have to use the wooden spoon, stops it climbing out the bowl and stretches the dough at the same time.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/10/17)

I have only heard good things about wallaby flour


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/10/17)

I just made some bread without salt...


....different...


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## gap (1/11/17)

different? is that another word for does not taste very nice?


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/11/17)

gap said:


> different? is that another word for does not taste very nice?



It was Ok...just tasted a lot different...kind of bland


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## hooper80 (2/11/17)

Hey guys. I’m totally naive to baking bread. I have brew 44lt brews in a stainless conical and the yeast I extract from it looks amazing. Usually bohemian larger yeast. How do I go about baking bread with it? And a fail safe recipe to start with? Thanks.


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## wide eyed and legless (2/11/17)

Forget about using brewing yeast, but definitely go ahead and start baking your own bread, took me about 20 to 25 kilo of bread flour to get it right but once you get it right it is so simple. A food mixer is the way to go one which can handle a couple of kilo and the actual time is next to nothing, put in the ingredients mix for 6 to 10 mins, let the dough rise, punch down, do the north south east and west and stick the dough in a bread pan to rise again and put in the oven.


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## gone brewing (7/11/17)

I've been a brewer for years but a total newbie to breadmaking. I have a bit more time on my hands these days and there's lots to go through on this thread, but in the meantime I'll just post a pic of the bread I made yesterday. It's a readymade sourdough from Laucke that I kneaded by hand and made 2 loaves. Gotta say it's pretty good but I hope to do better when I get to know some more and make some from scratch.


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## cliffo (23/12/17)

Bread-based I guess. 

Bought a Bakerstone pizza oven from the big green shed for $49. Bargain!

Works a treat.


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## Brewnicorn (23/12/17)

cliffo said:


> Bread-based I guess.
> 
> Bought a Bakerstone pizza oven from the big green shed for $49. Bargain!
> 
> ...



That looks awesome!


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## cliffo (23/12/17)

I'm well impressed with it and especially at the current price.

Heats up quickly on my cheapy BBQ and cooks pizzas in about 3-4 minutes.

Just need to turn them every minute or so to get an even cook.


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## Brewnicorn (24/12/17)

The bubbles in that pizza base though!


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## wide eyed and legless (24/9/19)

A bit of bread porn and what to do with spent grains.


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## Busboy (25/9/19)

An interesting and amusing video!


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