# BIAB Excessive Trub



## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

Hi, 

I have recently gone from a 3 vessel system to a BIAB setup and have a lot of trub which is increasing my losses.

I am losing about 3.5L of wort due to the trub meaning i am having to add extra water at the beginning to account for the losses.

I am using a stainless steel hop basket, stirring the grain every 15 minutes during the mash and continuosly during the mashout.

Any ideas to reduce the true losses or do you use a strainer as it drains into the fermenter?

Cheers,

Ryan


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## wereprawn (29/12/16)

There's an interesting post by Bribie G on here somewhere, on the subject. 

One thing I don't do is stir my mash again once its had a good mix at mash in. I've tried stirring a couple of times during the mash and just end up with a lot more trub and zero efficiency gain.


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## Bribie G (29/12/16)

Do a very gentle lift to form a grain bed.

I don't bother with mashout any more, or even a step mash with vigorous stirring of the grain, because the enzymes are in the wort anyway and will clean up any remaining starches as you ramp up to boiling.

Also a lot of trub is from hop materials such as pellets. Instead of chucking in hops commando style, I use a hop "swimming pool" made from a grain or paint strainer bag pegged around the edge of the urn.

These bags trap nearly all the vegetal stuff.


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## MHB (29/12/16)

What wereprawn said.
Because people doing BIAB tend to mill finer and aren't recirculating they tend to get a lot more grain flour in the boil, apart from the trub loss it is possible that the wort will foam a lot more during the boil, could even reduce the bitterness a bit as Alpha Acids and Iso-Alpha's stick to everything.

Finer bag, coarser grist, not squeezing the bag, less stirring and any other steps that reduce the amount of crud getting out of the bag and into the wort, will all help.
Bribies slow lifting is in essence doing just that, the fines get caught up in the grist, rather than running through and into the kettle. You might even (depending on the design of your kettle) be able to syphon/decant the tun bottoms off before the boil and get rid of the fines be allowing them to settle slowly before adding the wort back to the kettle. Or even carefully recirculating them through the grist to filter them out.

I find trying to clarify boiled wort less than effective, better to start with a clearer wort at the start of the boil.
Mark


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## Matplat (29/12/16)

Or, modify your system to a malt pipe with recirculation..... 

I love it when I look into the malt pipe and I can see the top of the grain bed clear as beneath 5cm of wort... makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and satisfied


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## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

Thanks for the replies.

I was toying with the idea of a magnetic drive pump to recirculate. I definitely think the less I move the grain bag or hop spider the better. I like the idea of circulating the wort back through the grain, I was also contemplating circulating the wort during the chill and feeding it back slowly into the hop spider? I use Brewers Friend and struggle a bit with the efficiency calculation. I seem to be sitting around 60% but if i am able to reduce the trub losses it will enable me to reduce the initial water required. Currently I'm at 33L to get 22L into Fermentor. It would be nice to get the trub loss down to 1L which would enable me to use approx 30L.

I don't want to complicate things to much hence my decision to BIAB.

Cheers,

Ryan


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## manticle (29/12/16)

Stop stirring and mill a bit coarser. Let the wort settle a bit before draining to kettle.


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## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

Malt Pipe?

To clarify, I have a 50L keg with a pipe and tap welded in the lowest point underneath the keg. I have a false bottom installed over this pipe. I also have an electric element Installed thorough the side and another false bottom concealing the element. It is insulated with 1Inch Armorflex and maintains a temp within 1 deg over 1 hour without using the element.


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## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

Matplat said:


> Or, modify your system to a malt pipe with recirculation.....
> 
> I love it when I look into the malt pipe and I can see the top of the grain bed clear as beneath 5cm of wort... makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and satisfied


What do you mean by malt pipe?

My mash tun is my kettle BTW.

Cheers Ryan


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## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

MHB said:


> What wereprawn said.
> Because people doing BIAB tend to mill finer and aren't recirculating they tend to get a lot more grain flour in the boil, apart from the trub loss it is possible that the wort will foam a lot more during the boil, could even reduce the bitterness a bit as Alpha Acids and Iso-Alpha's stick to everything.
> 
> Finer bag, coarser grist, not squeezing the bag, less stirring and any other steps that reduce the amount of crud getting out of the bag and into the wort, will all help.
> ...


Maybe I'm confused but my mash tun is my kettle?

Cheers,

Ryan


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## wereprawn (29/12/16)

Stieger82 said:


> What do you mean by malt pipe?
> 
> My mash tun is my kettle BTW.
> 
> Cheers Ryan


Think of a large / long stainless pot with small holes/thin cuts in the bottom which will fit inside your keg and can be lifted out.


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## MHB (29/12/16)

When you are mashing in it, it's a mash tun, when you are boiling in it, it's a kettle.
Yes it is doing both jobs, using different terms based on the process is just to highlight parts of that process and what they can contribute to the trub later.

We really don't have a term for a single vessel brewery, well not one as well understood ad Mash Tun, Lauter Tun, Kettle, Copper, Hop Back, Whirlpool vessel...
I'm sure we will settle on one someday.
Mark


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## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

wereprawn said:


> Think of a large / long stainless pot with small holes/thin cuts in the bottom which will fit inside your keg and can be lifted out.


Ok, similar to what is used it a grainfather?

Any ideas where to get one from?

Cheers, Ryan


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## wereprawn (29/12/16)

Stieger82 said:


> Ok, similar to what is used it a grainfather?
> 
> Any ideas where to get one from?
> 
> Cheers, Ryan


Exactly like the grainfather. Have a sqiz at what the site sponsors have on offer mate.


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## DUANNE (29/12/16)

my solution while i was doing biab was to do a bigger batch. if i wanted to do a 20 litre batch i would brew a 25 litre batch so the trub could all be left behind and cost wise it is bugger all to nothing. you could use a pump to pump over the mash to help clarify but by then you might as well just use your 3v system imo. biab is a bit of a trade off you will save time and clean less but will lose efficiency and spend slightly more in ingredients.


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## wereprawn (29/12/16)

BEERHOG said:


> my solution while i was doing biab was to do a bigger batch. if i wanted to do a 20 litre batch i would brew a 25 litre batch so the trub could all be left behind and cost wise it is bugger all to nothing. you could use a pump to pump over the mash to help clarify but by then you might as well just use your 3v system imo. biab is a bit of a trade off you will save time and clean less but will lose efficiency and spend slightly more in ingredients.


Low efficiency isn't a problem with biab. The same factors which 3v brewers encounter relating to efficiency are experienced by biabers - crush, water, temps ect. If anything , there are extra complicating factors relating to possible efficiency problems with a 3v system IMHO.


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## Bribie G (29/12/16)

At a Systems Wars back in 2011 or whenever for the Brisbane Conference, held at Bacchus we did the same recipe on BIAB, Ghetto, 3V and Braumeister.

Independent monitors took samples and refracted mercilessly with all systems coming in at about the same efficiency (around 73% IIRC).

We couldn't get in a HERMS for the day as all semi trailers were booked out for the weekend. h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r:


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## DUANNE (29/12/16)

extract efficiency is one thing but overall efficiency into the fermenter is another. given 73% extract efficiency but one system leaves 1 litre of trub at the bottom of the boiler and another leaves 3 litres of trub overall efficiency is affected. 20 litres of 1054 wort compared to 18 litres of 1054 wort for the same amount of grain. that also means more hops added during the boil to make up for whats left behind as well which is a further expense or loss in efficiency. im in no way knocking biab im certain the beer at the end will taste the same but there is a price to pay for the simplicity and ease on brewday however small.


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## Stieger82 (29/12/16)

Thanks for all the input.

I am compensating for the losses by adding extra water/grain/hops to get what i need. I was after a way i could limit this as it is extra cost but hey i brew hoppy beers so no matter what Its gonna be pricey. Its my hobby so money isn't everything.

I have a few ideas from your comments, first i might by a pump a re-circ.

Ill let you know how i go.

Cheers,

Ryan


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## Bribie G (29/12/16)

BEERHOG said:


> extract efficiency is one thing but overall efficiency into the fermenter is another. given 73% extract efficiency but one system leaves 1 litre of trub at the bottom of the boiler and another leaves 3 litres of trub overall efficiency is affected. 20 litres of 1054 wort compared to 18 litres of 1054 wort for the same amount of grain. that also means more hops added during the boil to make up for whats left behind as well which is a further expense or loss in efficiency. im in no way knocking biab im certain the beer at the end will taste the same but there is a price to pay for the simplicity and ease on brewday however small.


If you look at the previous photo you'll see that, with BIAB, it's not a given that you lose 3 litres to trub.
Actually with 3V you often lose that to deadspace in the mash tun, if using something like an esky.

edit: here's another shot from a different brew:




This is the total contents of the urn left overnight then drained into a 2L juice bottle. If you look at the first pic I posted from the first brew, what happens is that when I finish the boil I stick the lid on the urn and let the wort foam up until steam shoots out of the nostrils on the urn lid, then switch off. This sterilises the headspace, then I let it cool for around 25 mins before draining. As you can see, a lot of the trub sticks in a ring and gets stranded there, so doesn't end up in the runnings.

On the particular brew pictured, I drew off the clear wort, reboiled and saved it for starters etc IIRC.


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## Matplat (30/12/16)

Stieger82 said:


> Ok, similar to what is used it a grainfather?
> 
> Any ideas where to get one from?
> 
> Cheers, Ryan


Mine is just a big W 19l pot. I cut slits in the bottom, then use bolts as legs so it stands over my element. It does however limit the gravity I can get in a standard single batch as it will only fit about 5.7kg of grain. But I'm not that interested in brewing really big beers and if I do ever get the urge, I just use DME to boost the gravity.


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## wessmith (30/12/16)

I would be trying a different base malt from a different maltster, or maybe even an import for comparison.

Wes


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/12/16)

Bribie G said:


> At a Systems Wars back in 2011 or whenever for the Brisbane Conference, held at Bacchus we did the same recipe on BIAB, Ghetto, 3V and Braumeister.
> 
> Independent monitors took samples and refracted mercilessly with all systems coming in at about the same efficiency (around 73% IIRC).



I think this exercise would be worth doing again in the new year here in Vic: I'm confident I can beat 90%.

If you want >=35 litres you'll have to wait a bit as my current system is smaller than that.


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## Dan Pratt (30/12/16)

LC are you talking mash or brewhouse efficiency? 

Mash eff at >90% I would agree is possible. 

Those kinds of numbers for brewhouse......doubtful, but if you try and explain how? 

To me, boil off, losses to hops and trub will be at least 15% of your volume lost before it makes the FV.


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## Danscraftbeer (30/12/16)

Stieger82 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have recently gone from a 3 vessel system to a BIAB setup and have a lot of trub which is increasing my losses.
> 
> ...


This is one of the reasons I'm an esky masher rather than BIAB. Vorlauf is really cool. I drain/ Vorloauf until the wort is nearly as clear as the finished brew. Sometimes for ~10kg grain I will Vorlauf sometimes 6lt. Its not hard to do. Take advantage of the grain/husk natural filtering and watch how the run off gets clearer and clearer. 
$0.02.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> LC are you talking mash or brewhouse efficiency?
> 
> Those kinds of numbers for brewhouse......doubtful, but if you try and explain how?
> 
> To me, boil off, losses to hops and trub will be at least 15% of your volume lost before it makes the FV.


Brewhouse.

I was getting efficiency before trub losses around 96% but when I changed the lauter plate I lost a few percent. I'm making a new one hoping to get back over 95%, I'll see how I go.

There is no loss to boiloff, sugar isn't volatile.

Since I don't like American hops I'm probably not getting the hop losses others do; I use a traditional cast into the boil so they come out in the trub anyway.

Trub losses are currently a bit under 10%, I'm working on improving that, hoping for <5%.

In my experience the key to efficiency is running the lauter tun with a low differential pressure. I generally have my forerunnings (aka _vorlauf_) at under 3 kPa and main runnings around 5 kPa.

To the OP: I apologise for the threadjack.

If anyone's interested in the efficiency brew-off we should start a new thread.


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## Dan Pratt (30/12/16)

Trub losses are currently a bit under 10%, I'm working on improving that, hoping for <5%.


> Starting total water volume required minus ALL loses during the process to have fermentable wort is brewhouse efficiency %.
> 
> If your losing near 10% for trub you're at 90% eff, how can you not have further losses of volume through boiloff?? Not to mention losses to grain absorbtion....


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/12/16)

Brewhouse efficiency = (wort oP * wort mass) / Σ (malt mass * extract FGDB * (1 - moisture)).

See for instance the Brewer's Friend calculator


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## Dan Pratt (30/12/16)

^ ^ 

I ran that calc on my last beer. 

19lts wort
1053 gravity
4.5kg of MO malt

70.5% brewhouse eff, about what BS2.0 calculated. To get 90% would achieve a wort of 1.066, not likely.

Are you suggesting that a super efficient lauter will extract more fermentables to the levels of 10-15% more?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> Are you suggesting that a super efficient lauter will extract more fermentables to the levels of 10-15% more?



I'm saying that a properly efficient lauter process will extract 95%+.

As a direct comparison, a recent SMASH with 4.75 kg of Golden Promise yielded 24.2 kg of wort at 13.3oP but as I said my efficiencies have suffered with the new lauter plate, I'm hoping to do better with the new one.

With a 6 roller mill and good lauter tun control 98 - 100% efficiency is possible and in commercial world very much expected.

I mention the mill because for most of us this will be the limit on efficiency. Even a very good two roller will still cost a percent or two compared to a good 6 roller.

To get to super efficiency (>100%) normally requires a hammer mill and a mash filter.


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## Matplat (30/12/16)

Did you just say greater than 100% efficiency? How does that work?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (30/12/16)

Yes it is possible, though it sounds strange. Remember that efficiencies are compared with extract FGDB (Fine Grind Dry Basis) from a congress mash as per EBC method 4.5.1*

Although the Buhler Diag disc mill used to prepare the grist for this mash is about as efficient as any mill could be, the mash itself does not extract 100% of the possible material from the grist since it is based on a simple paper filtration and washing procedure to ensure repeatability. Maltsters and their customers are far more interested in repeatability than absolute quantity, it being pretty easy to figure in a correction factor for your brewhouse (that is in fact what this discussion is largely about).

When the congress mash was established as the standard it was more efficient than any commercial brewhouse so it was held to be the maximal extraction achievable. As more efficient methods of extraction were developed they eventually surpassed the congress mash but by then it had been established so long it remained as the standard, especially as the differences are small and most brewers who care about quality won't touch a mash filter with a barge pole.

* I used to do 8 - 12 of these every day, I know whereof I speak.


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## Bribie G (30/12/16)

So Coopers don't care about quality?

ed:


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## Matplat (31/12/16)

Righto, I figured it had something to do with the reference point. It's incredible that such efficiency is achievable on industrial scales... I must be doing something fairly wrong to only be hitting 70% although doing so with consistency is still good.


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## nosco (31/12/16)

What % of trub are other people getting in the final boil volume? Just wondering.


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## Bribie G (31/12/16)

There used to be a thread on Show me your Drained Kettle or something.


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## nosco (31/12/16)

It would depend on the beer being made i guess *slaps forehead*


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## Markbeer (31/12/16)

Hi, that's 24.2kg of wort. How many litres is that?



Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I'm saying that a properly efficient lauter process will extract 95%+.
> 
> As a direct comparison, a recent SMASH with 4.75 kg of Golden Promise yielded 24.2 kg of wort at 13.3oP but as I said my efficiencies have suffered with the new lauter plate, I'm hoping to do better with the new one.
> 
> ...


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## Dan Pratt (31/12/16)

I really feel LC you are getting yield of extraction from the malt mixed up with brewhouse eff. 

I'm perplexes to add up even a 90% eff when boil off, trub and loss to grain absorption is higher than 20% for most brewers. 

Can you give me your numbers for a beer, let me take a look cos If I'm hitting 75 % and your pressing 90 then that is of interest.


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## manticle (31/12/16)

Markbeer said:


> Hi, that's 24.2kg of wort. How many litres is that?


If a litre of water equals 1000g then probably not far off the digits given.


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## MHB (31/12/16)

Pratty, Pro brewers use the term Brewhouse Efficiency differently to the way most home brewers (mis)use it, I prefer the slight less confusing term Brewhouse Yield, same thing.
Brewhouse efficiency is the same a mash efficiency
Brewery Efficiency is the overall efficiency of the hot side.
Mark


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## Dan Pratt (31/12/16)

MHB, much thanks.

I knew it would be soon enough you entered the topic. 

Im brewing on overall efficiency which is why 90% seemed unlikely.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/12/16)

Markbeer said:


> Hi, that's 24.2kg of wort. How many litres is that?


You can calculate the litres by dividing the mass given by the SG which in turn can be derived from the oP given.

In this case 13.3 oP ~= 1.054 so 24.2 kg ~= 23 l.

To save you the trouble, Brewer's friend gives that as 84.5% efficiency and these figures are for clear wort into the fermenter(s). That was the first brew on the new system and included a small loss from spillage. I was very disappointed with that result and when the next two also came in below 90% I decided to rebuild the system (again), the new lauter plate is evidently not working*.

The re - rebuild is not going well BTW, I've built two new plates and trashed them both. Third time lucky.


* That's not the only symptom, it's also not clarifying the forerunnings properly which is why I think it's the lauter plate that's at fault.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> I really feel LC you are getting yield of extraction from the malt mixed up with brewhouse eff.


I agree that the term "brewhouse efficiency" is capable of misinterperetation.

As MHB says above, in my previous work I have used it to mean what might more properly be termed "brewhouse efficiency minus trub losses", eg if I say that this is 96% I mean 

(final wort mass post boil x wort oP) / Σ (malt mass * extract FGDB * (1 - moisture)) = 0.96.

I have tried to make it clear when I mean "brewhouse efficiency with losses" if I say this is 90% I mean

(final wort mass in fermenter x wort oP) / Σ (malt mass * extract FGDB * (1 - moisture)) = 0.90.

The figures were chosen to be representative of what I consider achievable efficiencies at small scale. At commercial scale they'd need to be 2-3% above that.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (31/12/16)

MHB said:


> Brewhouse efficiency is the same a mash efficiency


Not sure I agree with this.

Mash efficiency is derived from comparison with the FGDB formulae in EBC Analytica 4.5.1 so it's basically

(Mash oP * (mash liquor mass + malt moisture mash)) / Σ (malt mass * extract FGDB * (1 - moisture)).

The difference between this and brewhouse efficiency as defined above comes down to the effectiveness of the lauter tun.


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## MHB (1/1/17)

Well the same as what most home brewers mean by mash efficiency
Or how much extract you get over how much there is there to be got (yield from test) as a percentage


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## Stieger82 (1/1/17)

nosco said:


> What % of trub are other people getting in the final boil volume? Just wondering.


After draining the cooled usable wort (Little trub) from my kettle into the fermenter, I then get 3.5-4L of wort/trub left. If i let this settle, the trub would be about 1.5L.

So for me:
Total water needed = 32.8L
Grain Absorption = 1.4L
Starting Boil = 31.3L
Boil off = 5L (60 min)
Wort loss due to excess trub = 4L
Hop Absorption = 0.3L
Fermentor Amount = 22L


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## nosco (1/1/17)

^That seems like a lot. I had 4.5lt of trub uncooled out of the kettle with a 48lt batch, BIAB into no chill, last week. Thats with 70g of hops thrown in and with stirring in between for a step mash. A slow lift with no mash out. A bit more will settle in the cubes i think but it was very clear wort.

Hefeweizen. Just a normal crush as always.

Edit: 11.017kg of grain and 75lt of total water.


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## Stieger82 (1/1/17)

nosco said:


> ^That seems like a lot. I had 4.5lt of trub uncooled out of the kettle with a 48lt batch, BIAB into no chill, last week. Thats with 70g of hops thrown in and with stirring in between for a step mash. A slow lift with no mash out. A bit more will settle in the cubes i think but it was very clear wort.
> 
> Hefeweizen. Just a normal crush as always.
> 
> Edit: 11.017kg of grain and 75lt of total water.


Its not exactly 4.5L of trub but rather a mix of wort and trub i'd rather not go into the fermentor. I could reduce it to about 2L if i passes it through a strainer


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## nosco (1/1/17)

Makes sense. I did actually get an extra 2lt to use in the starter. I think the larger diameter of bigger kettles helps flatten the trub out. It makes it easier to get more wort.


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## Stieger82 (1/1/17)

My kettle unfortunately is now my old mash tun which i designed to be completely drained. I have an elbow welded into the lowest point and a tap for draining. This was great for mashing the traditional way but a slight downside for BIAB brewing. I am going to further modify my system by getting rid of the grain bag and replacing it with a stainless basket that is used in the robobrew system and also install a pump to recirc the wort during the mash (hopefully a more gentle way to maintain temp). I can also use this to recirc the cooled trub/wort through the hop spider to further filter out.


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## fdsaasdf (1/1/17)

Stieger82 said:


> I can also use this to recirc the cooled trub/wort through the hop spider to further filter out.


I hadn't thought of this as a way to filter and aerate wort at the same time - could work quite well. Pretty much all my keg king hop spider is used for these days is to filter sediment between mash and boil, then filter trub during my recirculating hop stand. The mesh size is too fine for decent hop utilisation (after 20+ brews).


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## Stieger82 (1/1/17)

fdsaasdf said:


> I hadn't thought of this as a way to filter and aerate wort at the same time - could work quite well. Pretty much all my keg king hop spider is used for these days is to filter sediment between mash and boil, then filter trub during my recirculating hop stand. The mesh size is too fine for decent hop utilisation (after 20+ brews).


I am also questioning the use of the hop spider due to this. I have not taken a temp within the hop spider but it can be hard to get a nice boil within it. I think a hop sock would work better. I am also going to ditch the hop bag during dry hopping and dry hop loose, anyone made any comparisons between either?


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## Matplat (2/1/17)

I would definitely recommend dry hopping loose.... just cold crash to sink the hops before packaging.


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## hotmelt (2/1/17)

A $5 trub ring worked for me till I moved my temp probe in the way of it.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/90101-biab-tipping-boil-dreggs-into-the-fermenter/page-2#entry1357694

Although according to LC's link I'm getting 82-86% efficiency without it.






So I ended up with 24.675kg @1.046.I think the fact I mashed in at 8pm and left it recirculating till 6am might have helped. I don't lift the bag either I drain it into pails.




After draining.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/1/17)

On those figures I get about 79%. Did you by any chance enter the mass as the volume? If so that will overstate efficiency by 4.6%


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## hotmelt (2/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> On those figures I get about 79%. Did you by any chance enter the mass as the volume? If so that will overstate efficiency by 4.6%


Guilty.
If I add a litre from the jug it works.


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## Bribie G (3/1/17)

Ok gents, back on track.
The OP was complaining about excessive loss to trub, then the thread turned into a chalk and blackboard debate about efficiency.

So returning here to the coal face, here's a brew that I did yesterday afternoon. Fair grain bill of 5.8kg in a 25L batch - the 25L would include trub.

No stirring or paddling after the mash, just let it rest. Gentle lift while ramping up to boil. Five minute hoists on a timer.






At the end of the lift, squeezing results in clear wort (ed_ running out of the bag_, as a grain bed has been formed in the bag. I'm a squeezer.

Then when it reaches the boil - first there is a cap of foam and in the case of BIAB compared to maybe HERMS or BrauMeister there is a bit more foam, and that's not break it's just "fines" and other muck. When the boil has broken through the cap of foam it distributes it around the sides of the urn where it sticks there pretty well, thus removing that source of trub.




Now I reach for the Craftbrewer grain bag - not a BIAB bag, a grain bag - and peg it round the lip of the urn and add hop pellets. The bag goes deep into the wort and as it billows during the boil, the hop material gets a good "massage" and extraction. Bag is hoisted on the pulley and left to drain.

See later for a photo of the hop residue.





At the end of the boil, BrewBright then rest with lid on for 25 minutes and fill cubes, keeping an eye on the stream to avoid any transfer of trub.
This is what was left in the urn this morning.




Onto next post, reached attachment limit.


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## Bribie G (3/1/17)

I poured all this into a jug half an hour ago, leaving the following in the urn. Note the ring of trub that sticks above the wort and actually gets marooned there during the boil as the wort level drops. In addition I do a final "foam up" of the wort and much of the break ends up attached to the lid of the urn and the sides, thus removing a further amount of trub.




Contents of jug after 30 mins settling.




Total loss to trub around 700ml - but on further settling I'm quite confident that I'll only lose 600. The clear wort will be reboiled, diluted and used for my starter for this brew - will crack out the stir plate later.

And here's the contents of the hop "swimming pool". Pretty well leached out.




So, 500 - 700 ml trub loss, not two or three litres. 

As posted in an earlier thread, anyone doing BIAB and experiencing unacceptable loss to trub doesn't need to invest in extra time, work and equipment. It's all in the process.


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## ScottyDoesntKnow (3/1/17)

This is all I do... bit of left over Swiss voile in a pasta strainer sat on top of the fermenter and pour the kettle through it. I don't bother with a hop spider or anything anymore, seems to give me pretty clear wort, might have to stop once or twice to empty the strainer but it's easy.


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## Bribie G (3/1/17)

I'll try that next time for my left overs out of the kettle.

It was either Dr. Smurto orThirsty Boy who strains their left overs through a kitchen towel to get wort for starters.


Hey: bonus:


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## manticle (3/1/17)

I let mine settle overnight, decant and reboil for starter like bribie.
If there's surplus, I have a bitsa/mongrel fermenter I use for a bitsa/mongrel keg.


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## stm (3/1/17)

Bribie G said:


> As posted in an earlier thread, anyone doing BIAB and experiencing unacceptable loss to trub doesn't need to invest in extra time, work and equipment. It's all in the process.


This. Don't overcomplicate it. It's really simple to resist the urge to stir during mash and mashout, and to do a gentle bag-pull, and the results are very good.


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## RdeVjun (3/1/17)

OT: Bugger me, I'm getting a swimming pool like Bribie's, if it has a $10 note in it at each boil end then that's a bonus, not to mention the hops debris containment.


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## hdawson (3/1/17)

"I am compensating for the losses by adding extra water/grain/hops to get what i need. I was after a way i could limit this as it is extra cost but hey i brew hoppy beers so no matter what Its gonna be pricey. Its my hobby so money isn't everything."

Too right!

Hi all.
I have got used to the wasted wort involved in BIAB , as I decided long ago that grain is pretty cheap.
But it still goes against the grain (no pun) that around 3L gets dumped onto the garden.
You are never to old to learn, however, and the tip to use a laundry bag to retain the bulk of the hop detritus certainly is obvious/genius.
Cheers Bribie.g.
That's why I love this forum.


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## hdawson (3/1/17)

Just re read this post.
Very interesting. What about guys who just pitch everything into the fermenter with gay abandon?
Then rack into a secondary or maybe not at all !
I'm sure we have all tasted these beers but maybe it was back in the 80's when our standards were not so high.
Just saying.......


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## GABBA110360 (4/1/17)

Bribie G said:


> I'll try that next time for my left overs out of the kettle.
> 
> It was either Dr. Smurto orThirsty Boy who strains their left overs through a kitchen towel to get wort for starters.
> 
> ...


i had a go at straining the dregs from yesterdays batch
it worked well as you can see


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## DUANNE (4/1/17)

Bribie G said:


> I poured all this into a jug half an hour ago, leaving the following in the urn. Note the ring of trub that sticks above the wort and actually gets marooned there during the boil as the wort level drops. In addition I do a final "foam up" of the wort and much of the break ends up attached to the lid of the urn and the sides, thus removing a further amount of trub.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ive never even thought about recovering trub for a starter. i might give it a go on my next brew and see how it goes. even if its only half a litre thats still less dme ive gotta use


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## Bribie G (4/1/17)

DME the fermentable of last resort :lol:


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## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

hdawson said:


> Very interesting. What about guys who just pitch everything into the fermenter with gay abandon?
> Then rack into a secondary or maybe not at all !
> I'm sure we have all tasted these beers but maybe it was back in the 80's when our standards were not so high.
> Just saying.......


I know of award-winning beers made by BIAB no-chillers who tip everything from the kettle into the cube and then into the fermenter, with no secondary or finings. 

Personally I make mostly hop-forward beers and don't care that much about avoiding trub, just cold crashing for at least a few days seems to produce clear beers.


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## Matplat (8/1/17)

Just for comparison, this is last nights trub that I bottled for starters, out of my 1v / malt pipe, its a 2l juice bottle, so maybe 250ml of trub?


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## lost at sea (30/1/17)

just to (hopefully) contribute something helpful to the slow hoist team, when looking for a decent pulley setup for my BIAB i was hoping to rig something with a mech advantage of 3 or 4, but the cost of doubles is pretty steep, so i had my one lightbulb moment for 2017 and found on fleabay a boat trailer winch for $30 delivered which i mounted to the wall of my garage (i brew in the same spot every time) 
the winch is geared so you can hoist it one click at a time if you wish with barely an ounce of effort required. can also lower in reverse gear as well....

here it is in action defying laws of gravity in my garage for some reason...


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## Bribie G (30/1/17)

Designed by God specifically for BIAB.

Could you post a link, and maybe also to the "pinned" thread guide re BIAB in electric urn?


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## gezzanet (30/1/17)

Been trying the slow haul and no mash stirring but still maybe a bit too fast as I end up with about 4 l in the keggle after 25 l wort in fermenter. 
No biggie as I let it settle in a 5 l jar and decant for starters


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## lost at sea (30/1/17)

Bribie G said:


> Designed by God specifically for BIAB.
> 
> Could you post a link, and maybe also to the "pinned" thread guide re BIAB in electric urn?


no probs, just gotta wait for baby to go the f*** to sleep ha


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## lost at sea (30/1/17)

Link for the trailer/BIAB winch on ebay, no affil blah blah, $30 free delivery, works perfectly. 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1200LBS-544KGS-2-Ways-Steel-Cable-Hand-Winch-Manual-Car-Boat-Trailer-Camper-/252120618577?hash=item3ab38f5651&_uhb=1


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## fdsaasdf (9/2/17)

lost at sea said:


> just to (hopefully) contribute something helpful to the slow hoist team, when looking for a decent pulley setup for my BIAB i was hoping to rig something with a mech advantage of 3 or 4, but the cost of doubles is pretty steep, so i had my one lightbulb moment for 2017 and found on fleabay a boat trailer winch for $30 delivered which i mounted to the wall of my garage (i brew in the same spot every time)
> the winch is geared so you can hoist it one click at a time if you wish with barely an ounce of effort required. can also lower in reverse gear as well....
> 
> here it is in action defying laws of gravity in my garage for some reason...
> ...


That looks great, I've just purchased the same hoist for my 56L malt pipe to be mounted on a pine stand over my brew bench. 

Have you looped your cable over a bolt or hook? Or do you have a pulley directly above the bag?


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## Moog (10/2/17)

you wasted money on that winch...... you could've just linked it up to you're garage door motor  (joking)


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## fdsaasdf (12/2/17)

Moog said:


> you wasted money on that winch...... you could've just linked it up to you're garage door motor  (joking)


I can just imagine the wife coming home early, opening the garage door and lifting my basket out before the mash is done!


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## lost at sea (12/2/17)

fdsaasdf said:


> That looks great, I've just purchased the same hoist for my 56L malt pipe to be mounted on a pine stand over my brew bench.
> 
> Have you looped your cable over a bolt or hook? Or do you have a pulley directly above the bag?


sorry for the late reply, been away camping, i just drilled and screwed a ringbolt i had lying around into the floor joist above, and then attached a spare bow shackle to that. too lazy to go buy an expensive open pulley, the wire is moving less than 1 meter so i figure no need for fancy pulley, 



Moog said:


> you wasted money on that winch...... you could've just linked it up to you're garage door motor  (joking)


ha you sir, are a bloody genius!


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## Chris79 (22/2/17)

such a great thread. A number of my partial mashes and my first BIAB had quite a bit of trub 2 and a bit litres for a 17-20 litre batch.

But based on the good pointers here, to resist stirring the mash and putting the hops in a hop sock the trub is much more minimal.

I just transferred my Vienna lager from primary to secondary last week, which had a volume of 17 ltrs in primary. Then when I transferred it to secondary I had about 16.5 litres! Super happy with that.

I think both not stirring the mash and containing some of the hop matter, was a great change.

Chris


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