# AHB Articles: Fermenting Directly in the No-chill Cube



## manticle

This is the discussion topic for article: Fermenting Directly in the No-chill Cube


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## Truman42

Great article Mants. 

Fermenting into a no chill cube is just to easy and eliminates the need for me to have a cube and a fermenter. Also my cube fits in my little bar fridge but my fermenter won't.


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## JDW81

Truman said:


> Great article Mants.
> 
> Fermenting into a no chill cube is just to easy and eliminates the need for me to have a cube and a fermenter. Also my cube fits in my little bar fridge but my fermenter won't.



You've just inspired me to ferment my next brew in the cube. Bollocks to cleaning a fermenter if I don't need to.

Manticle, have you ever used an aeration stone and aquarium pump with this method, or do you find a jolly old shaking to be sufficient?


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## manticle

I've never used a pump or aeration stone in my life.

Shaking does the trick for me but I don't have the other to compare it with. If you have and can use said equipment, try a side by side. I'd be interested to know.

Beer behaves similarly to when I used to pour from height into a fermenter though and similarly to when I used a whisk so it's as good as those methods in real terms (can't say in terms of oxygen addition ppm, just in fermentation behaviour and flavour of final product).


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## keifer33

Great work Manticle, after reading your posts in the past I think its time to give this a whirl and fck off the fermenters which will save space.


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## Jace89

Ive been fermenting in my no chill cubes now for awhile, I can stack them in my fridge and cleaning is to easy. I recently brought a plate chiller and still choose to ferment in my cubes if I do choose to use the chiller.

Now that this article is out I no longer feel like a cool kid...


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## TBird

Good work Manticle

Well set out procedure and easy to follow. Where do you get pure sodium percarbonate?

Cheers


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## manticle

You can buy small quantities at an inflated price from home brew shops. Usually sold as Oxyper or similar (not oxyclean though). We got some in Melbourne in a recent bulk buy which iamozziyob organised. He'll be able to tell you the supplier but I have previously found it on the net.

I know some QLDers also got some in a bulk buy a while ago. 25kg bags for under 1.50 a kg. I got half a bag and expect it to last some time (and I use it generously)


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## razz

A good read Manticle. I love the second line in the first paragraph.


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## Rowy

Just hit flameout. Might use this as my first brew to try this. Great article mate.


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## Benchish

The shape of the "Cube" could play an issue in fermentation character, as it will change the surface area of the yeast cake exposed to the beer and the convection patterns of the fermenting beer. 

I'm not sayings its a bad thing but you may get a slightly different character using different shaped fermenters. I know that some styles of english fermenters were square (yorkshire square) although they have largely been replaced now.


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## manticle

It could.

On an HB level, I'd be surprised if anyone could pick the difference - on a large commercial scale where that surface area is massively different, maybe. Again - try a side by side, same recipe and conditions and see if there's a difference and if it's a negative one.

It certainly won't make your beer shit, all else being equal so you have nothing to lose by having a crack.

Conjecture and hypothesis is interesting but real results (when talking home brewing rather than philosophy) are more so.


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## brucearnold

TBird said:


> Good work Manticle
> 
> Well set out procedure and easy to follow. Where do you get pure sodium percarbonate?
> 
> Cheers



Canberra Brewers have got it from Redox in Sydney in the past, but more recently from Canberra Discount Cemicals at $50 for 25kg. You are sure to have a similar store to this near you.


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## Yob

melbourne bulk buy was also Redox and found them to be great to deal with.


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## Yob

On topic.. 

my only personal concern with this method would be the headspace I usuually have available. From what Ive worked out with my system, I get pretty much an as near full as possible to full in a good old bunnings 20lt cube (23 full), I perhaps squeezed out 500ml headspace on my brew this weekend. I helps I have the natural angles in my brewspace to allow for topping the cube on an angle. (I had roughly 2lt of trub/dead space in keggle when the cube was full... was well impressed with brewbrite)

On other topics we have discussed leaving a brew on the cake and not racking to enable the 'bulk cake' to help in clean up post fermentation... my concern would be that I would, without doubt, would be be having to utilise a blow off tube to prevent massive overflow, to wit, my current house yeast is an explosive 4+ inch krausen making (in a 30lt FV) Mo Fo -05. No way im gettin that into a cube and keeping it there without a drama.

...a few years ago, and my recipes/methods at the time may well have been flawed at the time, I did a side by side cube ferment with blow off tubes and didnt like the results.. of either batch, I think it was a single hop addition same base recipe experiment.. could dig it up I guess, was a bloody long time ago :unsure: 

I know you have made beer like this for a while and I have certainly enjoyed a few of them, I guess the question is do you perceive an issue with the mess of some yeasts with regard to available headspace and the conditioning of the beer?

I hope that question has some logic...

I may also be rambling  

Yob


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## brucearnold

We all do our best to oxygenate the wort at the start of ferment, so by having a lack of head space in a cube, would this have an effect on the ferment as there isn't that extra oxygen in the head space for use? I guess the question really is, is the oxygen in the head space used by the yeast in the ferment?


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## Yob

the O2 _dissolved_ into the the wort is used by yeast in the budding stage and is of great benifit to yeast health in the early stages of fermentation for budding new cells.

got little to do with the headspace as far as I can tell.

ed: spoiling


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## Clutch

What would be the issues with NC'ing in a 25l cube with a 20l batch, so there is 5l of headspace?


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## Rowy

iamozziyob said:


> the O2 _dissolved_ into the the wort is used by yeast in the budding stage and is of great benifit to yeast health in the early stages of fermentation for budding new cells.
> 
> got little to do with the headspace as far as I can tell.
> 
> ed: spoiling




Is headspace then just about containing the krausen or does it perform some other function?


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## ShredMaster

Any o2 in the headspace would be quickly purged by the co2 output from the yeast which is coming out actively during the ferment. Even just the start of a ferment will quickly produce enough co2 to purge any benefit of o2 in the headpsace.

Well, that's what I reckon anyway. /shrug


Cheers,
Shred.


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## Rowy

ShredMaster said:


> Any o2 in the headspace would be quickly purged by the co2 output from the yeast which is coming out actively during the ferment. Even just the start of a ferment will quickly produce enough co2 to purge any benefit of o2 in the headpsace.
> 
> Well, that's what I reckon anyway. /shrug
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Shred.




So if your happy enough to clean up a bit of krausen overflow headspace doesn't matter? Not sure myself just asking the question.


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## Ross

Rowy said:


> So if your happy enough to clean up a bit of krausen overflow headspace doesn't matter? Not sure myself just asking the question.




Correct - easy to drill the cube lid & fit a 2 piece airlock, which will allow you to fit a blow off tube. preferable imo to krausen running down the sides of the cube.

cheers 
Ross


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## Yob

Clutch said:


> What would be the issues with NC'ing in a 25l cube with a 20l batch, so there is 5l of headspace?



what im saying is that I fit 22.5 lt into a 23 lt cube and I have little headspace to begin with, combined with an aggressive krausen monster, is there the possibility that you 'blow off' so much yeast that it can affect the cleanup ability of whats left there?

I guess the experiment there is a side by side of the same wort, same yeast and done in the cube with blow off and an FV with headspace enough for the krausen to drop back..

....dunno was just a thought as I realise I have minimal headspace in my cube generally.


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## donburke

Clutch said:


> What would be the issues with NC'ing in a 25l cube with a 20l batch, so there is 5l of headspace?




thats 5 litres of air containing some oxygen that can spoil you wort
probaby not an issue if pitched the next day, but would certainly reduce the shelf life of the unfermented wort


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## Yob

hang on, difference being that 5lt headspace 'before' you have released the pressure it is pasturised airspace generally right? (if you have that much), afterwards you have pitched yeast and it is largely irrelevant... I have more than 5lt headspace when I ferment in an regular drum and isnt an issue.... and not my question.

er... has this headed off in a direction I didnt inend :unsure:


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## Ross

iamozziyob said:


> what im saying is that I fit 22.5 lt into a 23 lt cube and I have little headspace to begin with, combined with an aggressive krausen monster, is there the possibility that you 'blow off' so much yeast that it can affect the cleanup ability of whats left there?



No, it will be fine.

Cheers Ross


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## donburke

iamozziyob said:


> hang on, difference being that 5lt headspace 'before' you have released the pressure it is pasturised airspace generally right? (if you have that much), afterwards you have pitched yeast and it is largely irrelevant... I have more than 5lt headspace when I ferment in an regular drum and isnt an issue.... and not my question.
> 
> er... has this headed off in a direction I didnt inend :unsure:



the only issue i see is with any extended storage of the unfermented wort

not an issue with bugs, but rather oxygen in that headspace that will spoil the wort


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## Rowy

donburke said:


> the only issue i see is with any extended storage of the unfermented wort
> 
> not an issue with bugs, but rather oxygen in that headspace that will spoil the wort




Isn't that what the squeeze is all about? Reduce the headspace as much as possible.


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## Yob

I concede that it well could have been my recipe and or methods of the date, I will have to re-run the experiment.

...though I might run it as cube V's drum and same hop blend side by side... 

:icon_cheers:


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## donburke

Rowy said:


> Isn't that what the squeeze is all about? Reduce the headspace as much as possible.



yes it is, but 20 litres in a 25 litre cube involves a lot of squeezing, probably still leaves a litre or two of headspace, none of which is an issue if fermenting the next day, 

in my experience, the cube pretty much held that contracted state when it had cooled, so even after releasing the pressure come ferment time, the cube still looked like it was crushed


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## thedragon

Great article, thanks Manticle.


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## manticle

iamozziyob said:


> what im saying is that I fit 22.5 lt into a 23 lt cube and I have little headspace to begin with, combined with an aggressive krausen monster, is there the possibility that you 'blow off' so much yeast that it can affect the cleanup ability of whats left there?




Read the article again, particularly where I talk about headspace.


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## Yob

aah, yes I see...

I think I still have my old lids fitted with the blow off tube somewhere, I may have to give this another go.

ed: having trouble with the search but turned this up My attempt only the first post is (slightly) relevant


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## vykuza

I used this when brewing with weizen yeasts and when pitching strong beers on big yeast cakes. 

Foam Control 

It is magic. Black magic. Works a thousand times better than I imagined it would. Keeps the krausen low, but it doesn't get rid of it altogether. My latest wheatie ended up with about 2-3cm of foam on top, compared to the escaping monsters I've had in the past.

It also works in the boil (it just lowers the surface tension of the liquid/bubbles AFAIK). I don't get boilovers in the kettle, but I've used it in starters boiling on the stove in an erlenmeyer flask and it works a treat there as well.

I'm going to give fermenting in jerries a go soon, so I can ferment two batches at once and I will definitely be using it.


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## Morebeer4me

Thanks for taking the time to write the article.
Do you tighten the screw cap when you cold crash, I have noticed via air lock on fermenter a small Negative pressure in vessel. Would you therefore suck in air when temperature drops from say 18 to 2 degrees.
Cheers


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## pyrosx

FTFA:


Manticle said:


> Put the lid on tight (make sure it's tight). Shake vigorously. Pressure will build from the heat and the cube will swell.



I've done exactly this in the past, and ended up with hot liquid spurting out the side of a willow cube all over the kitchen... The pressure tore a hole in the side of the thing, in the bottom of one of the indentation lines. It wasn't even an old or mistreated cube.... so maybe be careful with how much you're adding?


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## manticle

Good to note Pyrosx. I've never had any kind of issue (although I do it outside) but worth considering. Hot liquids and pressure require caution.

More beer for me - Yes once FG is reached (definitely reached), I tighten the lid. If you tighten the lid too early, pressure will build and the cube will swell so again caution is advised.


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## Morebeer4me

manticle said:


> Good to note Pyrosx. I've never had any kind of issue (although I do it outside) but worth considering. Hot liquids and pressure require caution.
> 
> More beer for me - Yes once FG is reached (definitely reached), I tighten the lid. If you tighten the lid too early, pressure will build and the cube will swell so again caution is advised.



Thanks Manticle all good


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## jacknohe

Yeah, good stuff. My initial reason for changing to this method, like others, was due to a lack of fridge space since migrating away from bottles to kegs. Fermenting in a cube in my bar fridge is great. I've also been able to fit three cubes in my keg fridge (when it was empty) and ferment all three at the same time as they were of similar style.

But, as you mention, an additional benefit realised in switching to fermenting in cube/jerry cans was minimising the number of vessels to sanitise and clean for fermentation. I have to say my past process of no-chill cubing, then fermenting in a barrel fermenter, then racking to secondary compared to just using one vessel (and ditching racking) was just additional effort I could do without.

I'm thinking of rigging up a blow off tube as I've had a couple of krausen spills but the clean up wasn't that bad.


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## Yob

Nick R said:


> Foam Control



Thanks for that, will look into it next purchase time. Could be a good solution, the thing that pissed me off last time when I drilled holes and fitted blow offs was that I essentially destroyed 2 lids <_< 

:icon_cheers: all


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## jacknohe

iamozziyob said:


> Thanks for that, will look into it next purchase time. Could be a good solution, the thing that pissed me off last time when I drilled holes and fitted blow offs was that I essentially destroyed 2 lids <_<
> 
> :icon_cheers: all



Yeah I know what you mean. Luckily I have a few cubes now so have a few more lids now.


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## Mags

May well be a silly question. But how would one go about bottling from the cube? Move it to a secondary? Or is the cube not ideal for people bottling?


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## bum

The article mentions to use cubes with taps. You could use your current process without any change (assuming you bottle from a tapped fermenter).


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## Mags

bum said:


> The article mentions to use cubes with taps. You could use your current process without any change (assuming you bottle from a tapped fermenter).



I do bottle from a tapped fermenter. I am looking at moving to cubes as it would be easier for me to brew with. I just need to find tapped ones, otherwise what methods would be recommend to get round this?


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## jacknohe

Mags said:


> May well be a silly question. But how would one go about bottling from the cube? Move it to a secondary? Or is the cube not ideal for people bottling?



Assuming you are using a cube or jerry can that is pre-molded for a tap, you can remove the bung and drill a hole (if required) to screw in the standard fermenter tap. Then bottle as normal for example by connecting a standard bottle filler to the tap.

Edit: I see you beat my reply.


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## jacknohe

Mags said:


> I do bottle from a tapped fermenter. I am looking at moving to cubes as it would be easier for me to brew with. I just need to find tapped ones, otherwise what methods would be recommend to get round this?



Perhaps a racking cane or something? Would be similar I imagine to bottling from a carboy.


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## bum

Every cube I've ever seen has been made for carrying water - and thus is made to be tapped.


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## black_labb

I can imagine that a cube could be aerated better than a normal fermenter by sealing it, shaking it around like a crying baby, squeeze the air out, let some fresh air back in and do it again. You could do this a number of times over the first stage of yeast growth. I'd probably do a few brews this way if I had more than 3 cubes that I wasn't always trying to keep going through the process, though my lack of empty bottles may give me the chance to try this.


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## Siborg

jacknohe said:


> Perhaps a racking cane or something? Would be similar I imagine to bottling from a carboy.


I decided to give this a go after discussing it with manticle at beerfest last week. I've never had a use for taps on my cubes, so they all have the bung covering where the tap would go. 

I already had a batch in a cube from a while back and thought "i'll just tip it on it's side, remove the bung and attach the tap". That was until I removed the bung, didn't get any "pffft" as it sucked in air and realised there is a bit of plastic behind the bung! I didn't want to get bits of plastic in my beer, or risk infection by drilling through with a dirty drill, so my only option was to go and get a siphon. Haven't used one before and haven't used it yet, but I don't imagine it is particularly hard.

Before I brew my next batch, I'm going to be fitting all of my cubes with taps cause I can fit two cubes in my fermenting fridge and it means one less vessel to clean.

Thanks for discussing and posting this, Manticle. Good article.

There's a bottle or two of dark english mild for you when it's ready.


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## manticle

Mags said:


> I do bottle from a tapped fermenter. I am looking at moving to cubes as it would be easier for me to brew with. I just need to find tapped ones, otherwise what methods would be recommend to get round this?



All the cubes I've ever bought have had threads which will fit a standard tap. Usually they come with the tap as well.

I filled one of the cubes I brewed on the weekend up to the very brim with an active starter made from fresh 1272 slurry. I ferment in a water bath so the mess isn't a big deal but if this is as messy as it gets then it's no big thing. Lid did need to be a bit looser than normal.

One day soon I'll try 3068 filled to 20 L and see what happens.


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## thedragon

Mags said:


> May well be a silly question. But how would one go about bottling from the cube? Move it to a secondary? Or is the cube not ideal for people bottling?



After reading this article on Sunday I brought myself a 20L cube from the big green shed. Cost about $15 including a tap. Used it to rack the berry brew that I've got on the go. Quite happy about being able to fit a number of these in my fridge rather than just the one fermenter.


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## Plastic Man

Been thinking about moving to Jerry's for fermenting but using cubes maybe better option. I purposely bought cubes with no tap/bung as I thought the threads could be a potential infection source, (one less thing to clean...). I'm wondering if one of these is a potential solution for those without taps or threads for taps.







When ready to keg or bottle put this cap on and lay cube on side and fill from tap. I wonder how the yeast cake would behave??

richard.

PS - I wonder if you could go one step further and ferment with Cap on and plug blow off tube into the spout. Then tip cube when finished and use to bottle / keg....


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## bum

Plastic Man said:


> I wonder how the yeast cake would behave?


Very poorly, I'd imagine. Gravity will have its way - as is its want.

Would probably need significant alteration for the blow-off idea to work too. That little inlet tube would be restrictive.


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## manticle

Brewers love complicating things.

Buy cube. 

Insert tap.

Brew.

Insert yeast.

Ferment.

Drink.

However that apparatus would make for a decent blowoff attachment for those concerned about the little headspace.


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## Siborg

manticle said:


> Brewers love complicating things.
> 
> Buy cube.
> 
> Insert tap.
> 
> Brew.
> 
> Insert yeast.
> 
> Ferment.
> 
> Drink.
> 
> However that apparatus would make for a decent blowoff attachment for those concerned about the little headspace.


i.ve got one already... might give it a go. my batch size is generally 19-21L so probably wont be needed.


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## sponge

Plastic Man said:


> Been thinking about moving to Jerry's for fermenting but using cubes maybe better option. I purposely bought cubes with no tap/bung as I thought the threads could be a potential infection source, (one less thing to clean...). I'm wondering if one of these is a potential solution for those without taps or threads for taps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When ready to keg or bottle put this cap on and lay cube on side and fill from tap. I wonder how the yeast cake would behave??
> 
> richard.
> 
> PS - I wonder if you could go one step further and ferment with Cap on and plug blow off tube into the spout. Then tip cube when finished and use to bottle / keg....





Where did you find that cap/tap combo from PM? I thoroughly enjoy the look of those to be used on cubes without a tap hole already. eliminates any infection possibilities from around the bung/tap as well.


Cheers,

Sponge


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## tallie

Plastic Man said:


> Been thinking about moving to Jerry's for fermenting but using cubes maybe better option. I purposely bought cubes with no tap/bung as I thought the threads could be a potential infection source, (one less thing to clean...). I'm wondering if one of these is a potential solution for those without taps or threads for taps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When ready to keg or bottle put this cap on and lay cube on side and fill from tap. I wonder how the yeast cake would behave??
> 
> richard.
> 
> PS - I wonder if you could go one step further and ferment with Cap on and plug blow off tube into the spout. Then tip cube when finished and use to bottle / keg....



You're trading off infection possibilities from around the bung (which gets blasted by hot wort anyway) for infection possibilities around that tap and lid. Not to mention bubbling air through the finished beer when transferring it out of the cube. Looks cool, and possibly has other useful applications in the brewery, but I can't think of any advantages of using it in this case.

Cheers,
tallie.


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## thedragon

Plastic Man said:


> Been thinking about moving to Jerry's for fermenting but using cubes maybe better option. I purposely bought cubes with no tap/bung as I thought the threads could be a potential infection source, (one less thing to clean...). I'm wondering if one of these is a potential solution for those without taps or threads for taps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When ready to keg or bottle put this cap on and lay cube on side and fill from tap. I wonder how the yeast cake would behave??
> 
> richard.
> 
> PS - I wonder if you could go one step further and ferment with Cap on and plug blow off tube into the spout. Then tip cube when finished and use to bottle / keg....



Richard, check out post #6 in the following thread. Never tried it myself, and not planning on it, but it looks like it's been done before

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=47940


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## lukec

Great article, 2 cubes fit in my kegerator and are fermenting away beautifully now. It has good temp control for this hot weather too.


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## MaltyHops

Plastic Man said:


> When ready to keg or bottle put this cap on and lay cube on side and fill from tap.
> I wonder how the yeast cake would behave??


Should work alright - just be gentle when moving the cube around.
If priming for bottling, drizzle the priming solution into cube, gently stir
the top part of the cube/beer, cap, move cube and slowly tilt cube into
position for bottling.

Do this 1/2 hour before filling bottles to allow the sugar to mix by
diffusion. The yeast should mostly slide down the cube botom and
settle reasonably well.


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## JDW81

Just pitched my first ferment in the cube yeast. A nice healthy 3068 starter onto a weizen :beerbang: I don't know why I didn't try it sooner, piece of piss. Stand by for results.


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## jbowers

Using the jerry can style cubes I can see this being my standard practice from now on in my brewery. Brewing for keg, so wanting to end up with 18-19l. Plenty of headspace which was very easy to squeeze out, so don't anticipate any issues with overflowing krausen. Can't believe I didn't give this a crack sooner, as this will allow me to finally have 2 beers fermenting at once...


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## Dicko72

Awesome article.

Gonna try this at the weekend.
I like the idea of less things to clean and sanitise!

Does anyone know if you can buy new screw tops for the cubes?


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## seemax

Rays or Aussie Disposals or similar might have lid separately.

I've been using the blue Willow cubes and found the blue lids to be a bit variable in terms of sealing. The black lids from the traditional cubes are better.

Been chilling and fermenting in the Willow cubes for years now with great results. Good for double batches where you want to try different yeasts.
I've got a fridge at 18C for fermenting.. then I can just move the cube to the keg fridge @4C to condition for as long as I like, or the next keg is emptied (usually the latter!!)


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## iralosavic

Yeah try Aussie Disposals.

You know what would be good? A list of different cubes and there ACTUAL volumes when filled to the brim - the most relevant measurement for a no-chiller.

I have a Bunnings (couldn't see a brand name) 20L cube, but haven't measured the actual volume yet as I haven't no-chilled in it so far. I'm thinking of picking up an Aussie Disposals one as they're only $10. Any one know the full volumes of either?


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## Dicko72

seemax said:


> Rays or Aussie Disposals or similar might have lid separately.
> 
> I've been using the blue Willow cubes and found the blue lids to be a bit variable in terms of sealing. The black lids from the traditional cubes are better.
> 
> Been chilling and fermenting in the Willow cubes for years now with great results. Good for double batches where you want to try different yeasts.
> I've got a fridge at 18C for fermenting.. then I can just move the cube to the keg fridge @4C to condition for as long as I like, or the next keg is emptied (usually the latter!!)



I'm thinking of stacking the traditional cubes (carefully) in my fridge.
I reckon I may just be able to squeeze 4 in! :icon_cheers:


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## sah

You write about managing foaming after airation before pitching. Why not pitch first?

Does anyone know of any issues / risks with this?


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## Thefatdoghead

manticle said:


> Brewers love complicating things.
> 
> Buy cube.
> 
> Insert tap.
> 
> Brew.
> 
> Insert yeast.
> 
> Ferment.
> 
> Drink.
> 
> However that apparatus would make for a decent blowoff attachment for those concerned about the little headspace.


Complicating things. No just thinking of this...





Jerry cans are a great idea but I will be making the valve lid blow off when I do ferment in them. Had some very messy experiences as you can see. Thats 3787 by the way.


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## kelbygreen

nice healthy ferment there  done a wheat that was trying to escape the other day but died down fast and I changed the glad wrap to be sure lol


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## peaky

jbowers said:


> Using the jerry can style cubes I can see this being my standard practice from now on in my brewery. Brewing for keg, so wanting to end up with 18-19l. Plenty of headspace which was very easy to squeeze out, so don't anticipate any issues with overflowing krausen. Can't believe I didn't give this a crack sooner, as this will allow me to finally have 2 beers fermenting at once...



This is what I do now. To ferment I just unscrew the lid a bit and leave it loose. I have enough fridge space to have 6 jerry cans fermenting at the same time (3 double batches).... :super:


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## markjd

I'm interested in trying this idea. However, since the articles section is still broken... anyone got the original article they can pm me?


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## manticle

I'll have a look at home for a saved copy.

Pretty simple - I just went into a lot of detail in an attempt to answer the common questions but basically no chill into sanitised cube as normal. Use a tapped cube unless you have a siphon.

When cooled, open the lid, reseal and shake as long as you can stand. Put down, crack lid again and repeat. Then add your yeast in whatever form you have, close, shake again then back the lid off so it is not completely tight.

Ferment.

To clean - hot sodium percarbonate and raw rice for very stubborn stuff (hot percarb is usually sufficient if you clean straight away.


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## markjd

Cheers. 

If I have 20L of wort is it better to use a 20L cube or 25L cube for fermenting?


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## JDW81

Just use whatever you no chill in. I've had a bit of headspace in cubes before and virtually none, it doesn't make a lot of difference. I just make sure I sit it in a tub in the fridge to catch any krausen that escapes. A spray with starsan will stop it from crusting up on the lid. Easy peasy.

JD.


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## r055c0

manticle said:


> To clean - hot sodium percarbonate and *raw rice* for very stubborn stuff (hot percarb is usually sufficient if you clean straight away.


Raw rice? Never heard of that method before, is that so you have something in there to agitate and knock hard to reach dirt off the walls?


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## markjd

Thanks. 

I am currently no chilling with 10L jerry cans and transferring to 30L fermenter to ferment.

Hoping to do some mid strength 20L maxibiab no chill batches for Summer. If I can no chill and ferment these in 20L jerry cans side by side in my little fridge that would be a real time saver.


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## manticle

ro55c0 said:


> Raw rice? Never heard of that method before, is that so you have something in there to agitate and knock hard to reach dirt off the walls?


Yep. Only ever really necessary if you don't soak the cube immediately after emptying though.
The krausen ring is usually about 1/3 from the top in my cubes so enough solution to reach that when the cube is placed upside down is the maximum amount of water needed.


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## sah

Completely filling the cube with sodium percarbonate solution and leaving to soak will also deal with a stubborn protein ring.

I dissolve the granules with a bit of hot water and then fill to the brim from a rain tank.

I'd worry about getting a grain of rice trapped in the handle of the cube.


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## manticle

Pretty easy to get the rice out. Also very rare you actually need to use it.

Not filling completely helps save water - if you have a decent garden/veg patch and rain water, it might be less of an issue as the sod percarb is biodegradeable (not sure about its effect on soil pH though).

Can also be reused for cleaning bathroom etc.


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## sah

I live in a rainy area and don't use the tank for much else.

I don't like risking upsetting worms and micro-fauna by tipping onto garden. I haven't checked pH but it feels a little soapy suggesting alkaline.


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## manticle

It is alkaline. Use it to clean the house, wash bathmats etc (presuming you rinse most of the yeasty slurry out of the fermenter before applying the sodium percarb otherwise the solution would be fairly icky).


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## paulmclaren11

Is the original article available anywhere?

Cheers.


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## manticle

I might have it on a PC drive somewhere at home.

Send me a PM to remind me to look and I'lll check when I get back a bit later.


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## Midnight Brew

Fermenting two cubes currently with one using 1469 and the other an American strain. Both cubes had 22L in them leaving 1L head space. So I've turned the cube on the side so the tap is on the top, attached a blow off tube that goes down into a flask to catch the overflow. I was looking at doing this to specifically catch the yeast much like top cropping. It's currently 40 hours into ferment and its caught no yeast yet and there has been no overflow.

Really surprised that the cube has contained the ferment, even with 1469.

Will give an update when it has past the 72 hour mark but I doubt there would be any excess activity with krausen.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I'm going to make a confession that will likely draw jeers of derision from the peanut gallery.

I ferment in the vessel I no chill in. I have done the transfer thing and will do it intermittently, especially when I wish any cube hopping hops to be removed from the wort. When I do this, I use 'traditional' no chill methodology.

But more often than not, when I no chill, it's straight into the fermenter.

A couple of points to note:

1. I sanitise everything profusely. Bleach bomb, you name it. I'm fairly anal about sanitisation.
2. I rehydrate my yeast once I'm down to pitching temp. It takes off.
3. I gelatin and then transfer to another vessel when bottling time comes up.

I've never had an infection from this (as opposed to one infection since AG on a chilled beer).

I had a Saison I did last year (September off memory) using this method. I bottled it in January (don't ask, holiday came up in the middle of it and I kinda hadn't brewed anything else to motivate me to bottle it. It's gone now. But it was (for an old saison, that is) good, and not a hint of infection. It did do a bit of a ninja jobbie though.

I'm not saying this is best practice at all. But I have four kids and the missus doesn't like brewing all that much, especially because I do it in the kitchen, so doing it when I can get permission and quickly is of vital importance.


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## Nicko_Cairns

hey Manticle,

So you are taking the OG from in the cube itself, or did I read the article wrong?

Great article, thanks for sharing, I'm about to start doing this, makes sense to me.

Nick.


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## manticle

The cube has a tap and is like a different shaped fermenter. Take the gravity readings in the normal way.


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## Nicko_Cairns

manticle said:


> The cube has a tap and is like a different shaped fermenter. Take the gravity readings in the normal way.


Okay thanks mate, I just read it wrong, thought you were taking it after removing the lid.


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## manticle

Take it just before pitching - otherwise you compromise the integrity of the no chill.


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## Nicko_Cairns

Thanks Manticle!


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## kaiserben

So is there a danger that a tap fitted to a no-chill cube could fail/leak due to the near-boiling wort? 

I had an accident when trying to get boiling wort through of the tap of a esky/cooler (a long story) that resulted in the tap failing and wort spraying everywhere. 

I realise we wouldn't need to use a chill cube's tap at boil temperature, but I'm just worried after my previous experience. However I suspect the type of tap on that cooler - a thumb press release with soft plastic - contributed to its failure. The taps we'd be using on the chill cubes are rigid plastic and probably much better suited, am I right?. I guess I'm just after some peace of mind from others who've already done it this way.


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## sponge

I usually pop the original 'plug' back in when filling the cube, then tip it on it's side and replace that with a tap for when I ferment in the cube.

Haven't had an issue doing it that way..


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## manticle

The warmth of the wort can make the area around the tap soft. In my experience it will pop out easily if knocked but if you are cautious, and don't knock it, it won't pop out by itself.

That's my experience (done tons of brews this way now) but yours may differ so exercise your own caution or do as Sponge suggests.


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## Blind Dog

sponge said:


> I usually pop the original 'plug' back in when filling the cube, then tip it on it's side and replace that with a tap for when I ferment in the cube.
> 
> Haven't had an issue doing it that way..


+1. Never had a leak yet and always a satisfied sigh from the wort when I release the plug


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## Forever Wort

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I ferment in the vessel I no chill in ... more often than not, when I no chill, it's straight into the fermenter.


I also let my wort chill in the fermenting vessel; in my case I use two 56l SS pots for fermenting in. 

I simply transfer the boiling wort via silicon, slap a layer of cling wrap on, seal it with an occy strap around the rim, pop the lid on and wait on average about thirty-six hours before pitching. 

No infections, no worries. The only plastic my beer comes into contact with during the entire brewing process is the silicon tube and nothing warps.


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## Futur

Reviving a bit of a dead thread here guys.

Has anyone come up with a better solution of oxygenation using this method?

Lifting the cube above your head like hemans power sword and shaking it at greyskull doesn't in my mind seem like a very successful method for achieving correct oxygenation. I know those with O2 tanks will be thinking this is a no brainer, but I don't have an O2 tank.

I normally use a large paint stirrer on a cordless drill and about five minutes and a bit more for lagers. I find lagers to be great using the no chill method due to the many recipes lacking late hop additions, but hence these beers need a good amount of oxygen which I don't see shaking a cube with minimal headspace achieving this.


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## thylacine

Futur said:


> Reviving a bit of a dead thread here guys.
> 
> Has anyone come up with a better solution of oxygenation using this method?
> 
> Lifting the cube above your head like hemans power sword and shaking it at greyskull doesn't in my mind seem like a very successful method for achieving correct oxygenation. I know those with O2 tanks will be thinking this is a no brainer, but I don't have an O2 tank.
> 
> I normally use a large paint stirrer on a cordless drill and about five minutes and a bit more for lagers. I find lagers to be great using the no chill method due to the many recipes lacking late hop additions, but hence these beers need a good amount of oxygen which I don't see shaking a cube with minimal headspace achieving this.


http://brulosophy.com/2015/05/25/wort-aeration-pt-1-shaken-vs-nothing-exbeeriment-results/

Purpose: "...To evaluate the differences between a beer aerated by shaking and one made from the same wort with no effort put into aeration..."

*My Impressions**: "...*Blinded or not, I could not reliably tell a difference between these beers. I fully agree with the remarks of panelists regarding how difficult it was to tell a difference. Both beers were great, I happily drank from both the non-aerated and aerated kegs..."


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## goatchop41

thylacine said:


> http://brulosophy.com/2015/05/25/wort-aeration-pt-1-shaken-vs-nothing-exbeeriment-results/
> 
> Purpose: "...To evaluate the differences between a beer aerated by shaking and one made from the same wort with no effort put into aeration..."
> 
> *My Impressions**: "...*Blinded or not, I could not reliably tell a difference between these beers. I fully agree with the remarks of panelists regarding how difficult it was to tell a difference. Both beers were great, I happily drank from both the non-aerated and aerated kegs..."


From reading through a lot of Brulosopher's stuff, and listening to Jamil Z & John Palmer's podcasts, the observed lack of difference between the aerated and non-aerated batches would be more to do with the size of the yeast starter used than the oxygenation. Brulospher always uses a big, healthy and sufficient pitch of yeast (except in the xBMTs that test yeast starter size, of course!).
The oxygen is used primarily by the yeast during the reproductive/growth phase. If you use a big enough starter, then there isn't need for significant growth/multiplication of the yeast. Therefore, if you can't or don't want to aerate, just pitch a big enough starter!


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## Logman

Futur said:


> Reviving a bit of a dead thread here guys.


Glad you did, I've got a cube that's going in like this tomorrow :lol: Don't know how I missed it.

The cube I have is chockers with a 8% or so Stout (no squeeze on the cube). Will fit a blow off but I assume you still want a decent bit of space with a blow off tube, but I want to toss as little as possible, what's the minimum air space with a big beer?


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## Hambone

Can you do this with extract or kits? That's all I'm up for just yet.
Cheers


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## manticle

No reason you can't do with a kit if you have cubes and they fit better in your fridge.
Main reason for the article is because many all grain no chill practicioners wait till cubed wort is cool, then transfer. This is about reducing vessels, cleaning, space, etc.


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## Hambone

Thanks mate and also for the PM.
Cheers


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## Bones39

I can’t access the original article but the only thing I need to work out is how to transfer to the keg. Have you been using a tap the same way you would for a normal fermenter or does that suck up too much trub?
Cheers


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## manticle

Bones39 said:


> I can’t access the original article but the only thing I need to work out is how to transfer to the keg. Have you been using a tap the same way you would for a normal fermenter or does that suck up too much trub?
> Cheers


Exactly the same. Silicon hose, cube, tap - keg.

If you cc and allow good settling time, you'll leave most trub behind as per ordinary fermenter. One advantage of cubes is you can tighten the lid when you hit FG and minimise oxygen exposure.


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## mattyh77

Any chance of republishing the original article. The link doesn't open it. Must be a migration issue.


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## Bones39

Does this look right
1. Tap cube
2. No chill like normal 
3. Open lid and let oxygen in and shake the shit out of it
4. Repeat step 3
5. Pitch hydrated yeast
6. Fermente and CC like normal 
7. Transfer to keg like normal


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## manticle

Yep. 

Thanks Lionman.
Might be a way to fix the wiki section.


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## mattyh77

So will this work on the blue 20l bunnings jerrys. I get 21-23 litres in them and worried about head space and krausen blow over. 
Do you retighten the lid when cold crashing? 
I have read a few pages of this thread, guess trying is better than wondering.


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## manticle

Krausen can blow over - a good clean and spray with starsan sorts that. Yes I tighten the lid as soon as I know I’ve hit fg.


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## wide eyed and legless

Taking this one step further, have mentioned the cube pressure fermenting before, I put down a Bass pale ale clone before I went away, so let the CO2 flush a 20 litre cube, applied some pressure today as fermentation should only have a couple of days at the most left to go. I will transfer to the 20 litre cube in a couple of days and will serve from that. The transfer will involve very little oxygen, if any. Will keep this updated. 




This is a cheap way into kegging, is a spunding valve needed? Not really, a simple clamp on the hose will work just as well, for some reason helps clear the beer as well.


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## Moog

before I started kegging, I wondered if it could be done in a cube, so I fitted a shrader valve into a spare cap, and pumped it up to 10psi, with my compressor, it boated right up to a balloon.
I made some steel straps to try to reinforce the shape, this stopped the bloating, and it held the pressure for the whole 2 weeks of the test.
I never tried it as a vessel because of the massive distortion, and risk of busting


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## wide eyed and legless

When you pressure test a vessel it should be filled with water, liquid holds the shape of the cube, I pressurised a cube to around 29 PSI I also pressurised a plastic fermeter to 40 PSI.
If you pressurise a cube with nothing in it the concave section at the bottom pops out, the empty cube once it has been flushed can be taken off the system, while still full of CO2.


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## wynnum1

*. Burst pressure –* Stainless steel kegs are rated for an internal pressure of at least 60 to 90 PSI without deformation, with a burst pressure of at least 300 PSI. The safety factors for burst pressure is usually about three to four, so the new keg does not actually rupture until it is exposed to 1000 PSI internal pressure or more. A lot of the new kegs can be purchased with a special pressure relief-valve in the form of a burst disc, which is a small circle stamp on the bottom dome of the keg, which is designed to break out at a certain design pressure to prevent the valve from becoming the weakest point of the pressure vessel. Never intentionally pressurize the keg to more than the design pressure using compressed air, to prevent damage to the keg or worse injuring yourself or innocent bystanders. The reason for this is that while liquid is incompressible, air can be compressed to the point of becoming very dangerous, like a rocket or a torpedo. When de-denting kegs to remove volume impacting dents, it has to be done using liquid and not air, and this procedure should only be done by professional keg service companies.


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## wide eyed and legless




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## wide eyed and legless

Equalise pressure in both cubes, connect cubes tap to tap and transfer, oxygen not included. Can either bottle, keg, or drink straight from the cube.


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## awfulknauful

Getting very popular this side of the ditch, pressure cubes and using them as kegs.


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## wide eyed and legless

That's where I got the idea from a Kiwi video, can't remember who it was though, same guy has a few videos.


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## awfulknauful

Yeh Bro Carl at TubeDinoz is where you would have seen it.


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## wide eyed and legless

A beer poured under its own steam (gas) direct from the secondary cube, certainly beats using a keg or setting up the beer engine, and tastes just as good.


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## awfulknauful

What do you use for finings, that clarity looks good.


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## wide eyed and legless

awfulknauful said:


> What do you use for finings, that clarity looks good.


Didn't use fining's, just let it settle out for a couple of days, I have a theory that the pressure, though only 50 kpa seems to make for a bright beer, not proven.


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## Schikitar

wide eyed and legless said:


> Taking this one step further, have mentioned the cube pressure fermenting before, I put down a Bass pale ale clone before I went away, so let the CO2 flush a 20 litre cube, applied some pressure today as fermentation should only have a couple of days at the most left to go. I will transfer to the 20 litre cube in a couple of days and will serve from that. The transfer will involve very little oxygen, if any. Will keep this updated.
> View attachment 111792
> View attachment 111793
> 
> This is a cheap way into kegging, is a spunding valve needed? Not really, a simple clamp on the hose will work just as well, for some reason helps clear the beer as well.



This is pretty cool, do you have a more detailed list of your setup and how you fit everything together? Would love to try and replicate something like this (as I've been looking to get into kegging but this looks kinda fun)!


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## awfulknauful

Kinda cheap also, would like to know where the seving pressure is coming from.


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## wide eyed and legless

Doing another brew shortly will show the set up.


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## wide eyed and legless

Usually I do a batch of 21 litres which leaves enough room for the krausen this is 23 litres. A 25 litre cube will hold about 28 litres and I usually have a 20 litre cube as a secondary (they will hold about 23 litres). One barb is all you need on the primary so just a barb fitted to the cap is enough, the secondary needs 2 barbs one inlet one outlet there is a manifold on the shelf above for the first 2-3 days let the gas vent through the secondary cube then apply a little pressure, after 5 days transfer via the taps into the secondary and close the valve to get the carbonation, you will have to play it by ear to suit the yeast you are using. If you decide to drink directly from the secondary have a third cube set up to capture the gas (daisy chain) the collapsible cubes are ideal, so as not to create a vacuum when serving


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## awfulknauful

I like the idea of the manifold, can you do multiple ferments?


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## wide eyed and legless

I was hoping to do that, it would only work fermenting similar brews at the same time.


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## wide eyed and legless

Took off the secondary while fermentation finishes, let some gas out but still a little out of shape and as tight as a snare drum, confident when the transfer takes place there will be no oxygen included.


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## Coodgee

what are those little nipple things that you are inserting into the cube? are they siliconed in or something?


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## wide eyed and legless

Hose barbs screwed in with silicone washers.


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## Coodgee

wide eyed and legless said:


> Hose barbs screwed in with silicone washers.



thanks, do you have a link to where you can buy them at all? you just screw them into the plastic?


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## wide eyed and legless

Got them from keg King the threaded barb and a silicone washer and a nut to suit, maybe your local home brew store will have them. 2.5kg of gas is emitted from about 20 litres of fermenting wort so a fair bit could be collected.


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## awfulknauful

Thats a fair bit of CO2.


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## wide eyed and legless

And to useful to waste.


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## Coodgee

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got them from keg King the threaded barb and a silicone washer and a nut to suit, maybe your local home brew store will have them. 2.5kg of gas is emitted from about 20 litres of fermenting wort so a fair bit could be collected.



so they have a nut on the inside of the cube? is that fiddly?


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## wide eyed and legless

Coodgee said:


> so they have a nut on the inside of the cube? is that fiddly?


A little bit, had to cut and re-weld a spanner then its OK.


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## devoutharpist

Let me revive this thread and hopefully this is the right place as it is somewhat related. 

Has anyone used a cube for ageing? I am planning to do a Barley-wine soon (and i do a RIS yearly) which require significant time of ageing in secondary. My fermenting fridge only really holds enough space for one "classic" plastic fermenter, but i can put a shelf on the top rung and have some space up the top (for bottles, etc). During winter this isn't much of an issue due to the ambient temperatures, but the 40+ Adelaide summer is far too brutal. 

So what i was thinking was, get a 20L plastic jerrycan (along these lines, for shape at least) and turn it on it's side to fit. This may require some fancy modifications for the airlock, but i could fit one of those in above the fermenter for ageing. 

Any thoughts or experience?


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## altone

I've used cubes for lagering and ageing beer before - never used the blue ones but many do use them.
As mine were always upright I didn't even use an airlock just slightly loosened the lid - still tight but loose enough excess pressure would find it's way out.

If you fit a barb to the lid a bit like WEAL has earlier in this thread and use some tubing from that to an airlock or just a bowl of sanitizer above the level
of the jerry can that should work fine.


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## chesl73

I'm a bit late to the party on this topic. Going back to p1 and clicking on the link to the original article the link is no longer valid. Anyone know if the article is still out there?


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## chesl73

I suppose thinking about it, there's not much to say is there? 
- Use the cube
- Ferment as normal
- Use a loose lid or some clingwrap

Anything else?


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## brewermp

chesl73 said:


> I suppose thinking about it, there's not much to say is there?
> - Use the cube
> - Ferment as normal
> - Use a loose lid or some clingwrap
> 
> Anything else?



And.. If you don’t have headspace then you need a blowoff valve


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## altone

chesl73 said:


> I'm a bit late to the party on this topic. Going back to p1 and clicking on the link to the original article the link is no longer valid. Anyone know if the article is still out there?



Use the Wayback machine and you'll still be able to see it.
If you don't know what that is just chuck it in google for the link.


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## brewermp

Or for the lazy people like me
https://web.archive.org/web/20181121085346/https://aussiehomebrewer.com/articles/article197.html


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## devoutharpist

Also, what's the good noise on cubes at the moment? I see the bunnings ones are all opaque meaning that reading the levels would be a bit of a challenge


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## chesl73

I'm in Bunnings and they have these drinking containers. I like the wide opening, easier to clean. You think these would take the hot temperatures?


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## altone

Some people do use them, although to me they seem a bit more flimsy than the white ones I use.

Also be sure to check the seams inside - some of them are pretty rough.

Also if you're cubing. the small necked square ones are fine and easy to clean.
A bit of warm perc a rinse then a bit of Starsan shaken around - done!
And the Starsan isn't necessary - I like to put a bit in while I'm storing them though - just in case.


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## chesl73

I was thinking if I start to do no chill for a few brews then I might as well leave it there and ferment in it as well. Cleaning the Krausen ring and so on would be a bit easier I think in with this wider opening. 
I didn’t check the inside to see the seams.
I like the jerry can style as well which they had as they are shaped better in terms of fitting multiple in a fridge.


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## altone

chesl73 said:


> I was thinking if I start to do no chill for a few brews then I might as well leave it there and ferment in it as well. Cleaning the Krausen ring and so on would be a bit easier I think in with this wider opening.
> I didn’t check the inside to see the seams.
> I like the jerry can style as well which they had as they are shaped better in terms of fitting multiple in a fridge.


Yep the big lid would be better of fermenting, but do check those seams and pick the cleanest one on the shelf as some are really bad which would make cleaning/sanitizing a PITA


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## jimmysuperlative

You could choose the 25L cube... and brew to 21 or 22L. That'd be just enough head room in the cube to pitch and ferment. The square 25L jerry would allow you to squeeze much of the O2 from the container before sealing.

Plenty of people do it.


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## jeff clarke

manticle said:


> This is the discussion topic for article: Fermenting Directly in the No-chill Cube


*Aussie Home Brewer - Error*
The requested page could not be found. is what i get when i click on link?


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## wide eyed and legless

jeff clarke said:


> *Aussie Home Brewer - Error*
> The requested page could not be found. is what i get when i click on link?


https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/ahb-articles-fermenting-directly-in-the-no-chill-cube.62779/

If I am going to cask the beer when fermenting I capture the gas,usually like it to be 21 litres in the 25 litre cube this gives 7 litres of head space, however if it happens to be more than the 21 litres it can still be achieved by putting some resistance on the exhausting gas. If a PRV isn't available, one of these one way valves will do the job, I have checked the accuracy and it exhausts at spot on 5 psi. (could be a good way of anyone with a PRV but a cheap gauge to check the accuracy of the gauge) Normally don't like to go as high as 5 psi, but I don't wan't krausen creeping down the line.


one way valve.

24 litres fermenting in a 25 litre cube.


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## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> View attachment 114214
> one way valve.
> View attachment 114215
> 24 litres fermenting in a 25 litre cube.



Where did you find those nice clear cubes?


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## wide eyed and legless

I did look before when you asked the same question about where to buy cubes, People in Plastic, but they don't seem to be in Adelaide. Best bet is to find a chemical factory close by who may get their cubes from PiP, there is one not far from me which saves me a trip to the western suburbs and I get them 50 cents cheaper.


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## altone

devoutharpist said:


> Where did you find those nice clear cubes?


Also try your local Chinese restaurants some of them buy soy sauce in 25l cubes and might let you have some cheap/free.
Don't forget to say Xièxiè or if they are from Shanghai say Yá yà! and they'll be happy to give you more next time you visit. 
I used to get mine that way but now they buy their sauce in metal drums.


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## chesl73

jeff clarke said:


> *Aussie Home Brewer - Error*
> The requested page could not be found. is what i get when i click on link?


Jeff... See up above about 6 posts for updated link, here it is...
https://web.archive.org/web/20181121085346/https://aussiehomebrewer.com/articles/article197.html


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## jeff clarke

chesl73 said:


> Jeff... See up above about 6 posts for updated link, here it is...
> https://web.archive.org/web/20181121085346/https://aussiehomebrewer.com/articles/article197.html


ty have copied and pasted to book of things i might try , lol


----------

