# Recirculating Single Vessel Breweries



## black_labb (21/6/12)

I'm starting this thread for my own recently built system but I think with the number popping up we might as well keep a single thread for them here as I suspect we'll be seeing alot more. This could keep most of the information available or linked to from this thread for people looking into designing or building a recirculating single vessel system.


Along with many I've just put together a single vessel brewery. The system uses a hermit/brown pump to recirculate from the bottom of a keggle to the top of the malt pipe. The malt pipe is a bigW 19L pot that I took an angle grinder with a 1.2mm cutoff disc and made slots to hold the grain back. The wort return is a loop of 1/2" copper pipe around the top of the malt pipe. 

The heating is a uxcell 2kw stainless element. This is controlled by an Auberins PID ramp/soak controller switching a SSR on and off. This automates the step mashing.

I've brewed with it twice so far. First went well, though I forgot to measure out the water into it and couldn't be bothered reheating the strike water. The lack of volume, inefficient attempt at a fly sparge and a few other things meant the efficiency was in the high 60's. I was also a bit unsure of the grain as it was a bag I had crushed for me a while ago to compare the difference between proper crushing and my corona grain shredder.

Second brew I did full volume and seemed much more promising. The grain was shredded ala corona mill which didn't cause any issues which was great. Haven't measured the exact SG as it is still in the cube but going on the boil volume and the preboil SG it is in the high 70's-low 80's efficiency wise which is perfectly acceptable. Unfortunately the pump died just as things reached mashout temps. I did a quick "sparge" with 2L of 75* water pored through the malt pipe while it drained into the kettle as things came to the boil.

Unfortunately the cube was giving me trouble and didn't end up sealing (threads and seal on the lid are farked, that cube is being retired to lagering and fermenting from now on). I had to head off yesterday as soon as the brew was finished so I returned today with a reliable cube and brought the wort back up to 90* and recubed it as I wasn't ready to pitch yeast. I have no Idea what to expect from the 30g of challenger I used at flameout before the first cubing. I'll probably dry hop with some to make up for any lost aroma. As things go I'll probably nail the best northern brown and never be able to recreate it without recubing. 

I still need to do some tweaking on the system before I'm completely happy (and have a look at the pump) before I'm happy to call it completed but I'm happy with how it works and it just needs some adjustment.

*Things I want to change*

- Add an overflow protection: A simple tube sitting in the malt pipe that connects the bottom of the malt pipe to a point below the rim of the malt pipe. This would mean that when the wort reaches this point it would flow directly to the bottom of the malt pipe instead of overflowing. This would mean that the mashing wouldn't need to be watched and just set the flow to more than you need so that the level above the grain is consistently kept at the level determined by the return pipe.

- Put pump power supply into the control box that can be connected by a 1/4" jack, as opposed to alligator clipping a laptop power supply to the pump wires. Once I've got that sorted I'll add an on switch for the pid, pump as well as an on/off/pid control switch for the element and then clean up the control box. 

- Attach pump to a more permanent position, probably with the motor pointing up to avoid it from stoping like it did (assuming it starts to work again once taken apart and cleaned).

- Replace the wort return ring of copper flex pipe with a return that drops vertically from the centre onto a dispersion plate (or whatever the correct name is). This seems like a slightly better system to me but it requires me to drill a 1/2" hole into the glass, or build a new lid, so I'm not in too much of a hurry.

- I'm thinking about making the temp controller modular where I can build it into a box with plug inputs for a number of element outputs so that I can use the controller on a larger system. Only issue is that the controller would have to plug into a different powerpoint and circuit for each 10A of power. This would put the controller in the middle of a network of many wires just to do a double batch. Might just be better to build a second one of these and run them simultaneously as a 19L pot for a malt pipe is cheap, but getting something for a bigger system gets pricey, nevermind the expense of a bigger kettle. 

- Possibly weld a malt pipe extension on for doing bigger beers. I suspect I'm going to struggle getting much more than 6kg of grain into the malt pipe. Though I may end up building a bigger system just because I can and use that one for the bigger beers. 

Sorry for the lack of photos. I wasn't very motivated for photos once the pump stopped running and much less so when the cube failed to seal and sucked air on me. I'll grab some more photos of the malt pipe and internals soon. The malt pipe looks like the wort is cloudy, though it is actually clear but has bits of grain floating on the top. Even with a terrible crush level the wort filtering through the grain bed is beautifully clear.



*A few thoughts I have on the system*


- I was expecting to be using the pump to do some fly sparging, but without being albe to restrict flow out of the malt pipe the water does not spend enough time to really dissolve much sugars while passing through the malt pipe. A near full volume mash in seems better then running 1-2L through the malt pipe to dissolve a bit extra seems about right.

- compared to BIAB you will have much less trub. Adjust the pickup tubes location to reflect this.

- Step mashes are very easy, especially with the pid controller.


----------



## black_labb (21/6/12)

Some links to other recirculating 1v systems, feel free to post links to others


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=57924

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=63866&hl=

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=65673&st=0

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=64298&hl=

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=65593&st=0


----------



## Fat Bastard (21/6/12)

black_labb said:


> - compared to BIAB you will have much less trub. Adjust the pickup tubes location to reflect this.



I run a hybrid BIAB recirculating system using a solid sided bag instead of a bucket/malt pipe type arrangement, although it's not a true 1v system because I have no room to lift the bag, so I pump the wort to a 30 litre bucket before sparging and then return the wort back to the mashtun/kettle for boiling.

I seem to have quite a bit of trub in the bottom of the kettle before the boil, the brown pump obviously does not have enough guts to draw the heavier material out and back into the mash. I just tip it into the sink before returning the wort to the kettle, but this is a bit of a pain. Do you get some trub remaining and is it really worth worrying about? The first brew I did with the system I forgot to remove the strainer from the end of the pickup, so my recirculation was basically useless, and I can't tell the difference between it and the identical brew I did a week later minus the strainer, getting proper recirculation. I'm planning on overcoming this by fitting a second valve to the kettle for recirculation and wort transfer only and retaining the existing valve and strainer arrangement for draining to the chiller.

Would be interested to see your pickup arrangement.

Cheers,

FB


----------



## black_labb (21/6/12)

I have a simple copper pickup tube right now. I haven't noticed the brown pump having issues recirculating solids to be filtered back through the grain bed at the moment. I used to have a couple of litres of solid trub per brew after decanting the wort off with 2 days of chilling the extra in the fridge (the extra clear wort went towards yeast).


----------



## black_labb (22/6/12)

A quick disassembly of the pump hasn't shown any clear issue. There seems to be too much interference around the magnet housing.


----------



## Fat Bastard (24/6/12)

black_labb said:


> I have a simple copper pickup tube right now. I haven't noticed the brown pump having issues recirculating solids to be filtered back through the grain bed at the moment. I used to have a couple of litres of solid trub per brew after decanting the wort off with 2 days of chilling the extra in the fridge (the extra clear wort went towards yeast).




I guess if you're lifting the bag from the wort at full volume, you couldn't possibly notice it anyway, unless your wort is crystal clear and like water!

When I drain I see this in the last litre or so left.






The wort going into the top of the bag is absolutely sparkling, but this last little bit is pretty muddy.I guess if it's too heavy for the pump to pull out, it won't even get into the fermenter. I'm just a bit concerned about it getting into the boil and possible undesireable flavours resulting from it.


----------



## black_labb (25/6/12)

It's possible that I had similar in the bottom of mine. I've been boiling in the same vessel so by the time you have hot break and hops settling out after the whirlpool I wouldn't notice it in the trub. I have noticed that there is much less trub than when I was doing biab. probably 50-90% reduction (seriously, and probably closer to the 90%). 

I think that the only way to filter all of that through the grain bed would be to have the pump sucking from the middle with a convex bottom (keg?). The convection currents from the element wont mix that in as they sit under the element.


----------



## black_labb (25/6/12)

Here are the insides of the system. The angle grinder slots are quick to do but a pain to clean up all the burrs as it is half inside something. Fortunately it is finished, just need a working pump again.


----------



## Fat Bastard (25/6/12)

How much space do you have underneath the malt pipe and do you get much lag in the system with the probe mounted directly over the element like that? Mine holds about 10 litres below the bag rest/false bottom and the wort coming out of the wort return lags around 1 degree under the temp from the probe, but the system equalises in 10 minutes or so. The theory of my location for it was to have it the same distance from the element as the pickup . I've got another to plumb into the outlet, but that'll make everything more bulky and harder to move. Brewing in a tiny kitchen means everything has to be put away post brew.
Anyway, here's some pics of my current system, which isn't strictly single vessel, but probably partly within the scope of the thread. 

Solid sided bag with false bottom visible below voille





Recirculating the mash










Clear Wort





Draining the mash to holding tank. The little urn supplies sparge water and gets pumped into the mash via the recirculation system. The little Aldi urn holds 7 litres and gets emptied once for 4-5.5kg grain bills, twice for anything over that. It adds complexity to the system, but it's the only way I can consistantly get 30 litre pre boil volumes without overflowing the mash tun during the mash. I've done up to 9.5 kg of grain for 1.085sg brews successfully. Normal brews with around 5kg bills normally get over 90% efficiency, although for some reason I got much lower than that last time. The only thing I did differently was to not stir the mash halfway through. Everything else was the same as the previous 5 brews (90-93% efficiency) apart from that.
You can see the whole reason for this convoluted brew rig well in this pic. There isn't enough clearance above the vessel to lift and hang a bag. With a 9kg bill, it's only just possible to lift the drained bag out of the vessel and wrestle it into the sink on the right of the pic. A malt pipe arrangement would be my preference, but I think a solid sided bag is probably the next best thing.


----------



## Fat Bastard (25/6/12)

I get quite a bit of channeling with the bag. I just push the grain bed back against the walls with a spoon and flatten it with a potato masher. Unorthodox I know, but I guess it's called mashing for a reason!





Ghetto sparge distribution. I need to do something about this. It's a poor arrangement.





Boiling





Whirlpooling via wort return





Draining. I wish I had a better option than letting the cooling water run down the sink.





A 30 buck pump can get a better trub cone than I can!


----------



## husky (26/6/12)

Heres mine, has a stainless inner basket inside a 75L vessel. I have tried with and without the BIAB bag and its definatly easier to clean up with it. Recirculates through a RIMS system controlled by a PID. Very simple and minimal effort to run. Possibly too simple and easy, Im now thinking of 3V so I have more stainless to play with.











http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...80&start=80


----------



## black_labb (26/6/12)

Fat: Looks like a good system, too bad you can't just lift the grain out.

Husky: that bench looks too empty. build another 2 identical setups!!


----------



## Fat Bastard (26/6/12)

Cheers Labb, it's taken me a while to acheive some sort of consistency with it! 

Wish I could just lift the bag too. stuffing around waiting for it to drain and pumping the wort back adds a good hour to the day all told. Including clean up, my brew days run to 8 hours, provided nothing goes wrong! The hard work starts once the fermenter has beer in it.

Do you guys stir your mash at all? I found on my last brew, I didn't stir halfway through like normal and undershot my gravity by 0.012! I can't think of anything else that would have caused it. Used the same grain, with the same crush and had adjusted the pH with EZ water just like prior brews where I got over 90%, including an identical brew 2 weeks prior.

cheers,

FB


----------



## BlueSky (27/6/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> Do you guys stir your mash at all? I found on my last brew, I didn't stir halfway through like normal and undershot my gravity by 0.012! I can't think of anything else that would have caused it. Used the same grain, with the same crush and had adjusted the pH with EZ water just like prior brews where I got over 90%, including an identical brew 2 weeks prior.



I am very interested in answers to this question too for my forthcoming 'recirculating-pot-in-pot' system. Do you stir regularly or just at each step of the mash? Recirculate constantly or just periodically?

Great thread btw!


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (27/6/12)

Do you guys mash full volume?


----------



## black_labb (27/6/12)

I've stirred a bit but more out of curiousity. I don't think it is too neccesary with recirculating setups as the constant movement should have the wort find it's way into and back out from each spot, but stirring should make sure of it. I don't expect stirring to cause much of an issue. I run my pump constantly while mashing. My system as is suits full volume as the sparge water runs through the grain quickly to do an effective sparge.


----------



## tavas (27/6/12)

Do you see much of a reduction in hot break material? I am using a modified 2V BIAB setup, whereby I mash in an esky at 2.5l/kg, then dunk sparge into my urn into the remaining water. I get about 4lts of hot break after the boil, even with whirlfloc and/or Brewbrite.

From what I read on here and seen on Youtube, this seems like a lot. I was thinking of setting up some sort of recirc to try and clean up the wort to see if that makes a difference. I realise I am bordering on 3V but don't have room for a HLT.


----------



## black_labb (27/6/12)

Tavas, that's almost exactly what I was doing before and was getting the same result. As I mentioned above the trub at the end of running this system is much less. It almost looks like its hops only instead of trub with flecks of hops. I'm leaning towards a 80-90% reduction of trub.


----------



## tavas (27/6/12)

Thanks black_labb

Sounds like its worth pursuing. I have the brown pump and a Woolies pot so no additional gear required. Just need to make it work. Could even get rid of the esky tun.


----------



## seamad (27/6/12)

Just pumped out a tripel today, pretty well tested my systems limit.
Had 5.76 kg of grain in the pot with about 50 mmm freeboard.
Five step mash, noticed wort squirting out between pot and top filter plate when checking pH at 63 rest. Removed plate as thought mesh was blocked, wasnt. Did it all back up again and same thing. Turned pump off then on and noticed the filter plate bulging , never had that before, slowed flow down to about half and all worked. Must have been the volume of grain causing the warping of the plate?
Was a bit worried about effeciency but got 1066 wort at 75% effeciency before adding the sugar , so alls well.

Reckon that 6 kg will be the limit, not that i make a lot of big beers

Cheers,sean


----------



## husky (27/6/12)

I tend to stir half way through the mash so it has plenty of time to clear up again. I don't think it makes much difference as long as you dont have channeling. I get around 80% efficiency using my vull volume mashing procedure.
I have also noticed reduced break material now that I have started recirculating.


----------



## Fat Bastard (27/6/12)

black_labb said:


> I've stirred a bit but more out of curiousity. I don't think it is too neccesary with recirculating setups as the constant movement should have the wort find it's way into and back out from each spot, but stirring should make sure of it. I don't expect stirring to cause much of an issue. I run my pump constantly while mashing. My system as is suits full volume as the sparge water runs through the grain quickly to do an effective sparge.






husky said:


> I tend to stir half way through the mash so it has plenty of time to clear up again. I don't think it makes much difference as long as you dont have channeling. I get around 80% efficiency using my vull volume mashing procedure.
> I have also noticed reduced break material now that I have started recirculating.



When I started recircing, I stirred halfway through the mash because I read in one of the braumeister threads that someone was getting much improved efficiency from it. Stirring resulted in a large amount of bubbles and dusty shit coming up, but would settle down again pretty quickly apart for some foam on the surface.

When I didn't stir, I got the same thing happening on it's own, 5 minutes into the mashout step. I assume that the bubbles are air trapped 'twixt husk and crushed grain. Efficiency was spectacularly good when I stirred, not so hot when I did not. I think I'll continue to stir in future.

In other news, I have come up with a replacement for my ghetto sparge distribution system.







50 bucks including shipping from fleabay. 210mm diameter, and probably costs less than trying to make something similar from copper tube.

1 left


----------



## breakbeer (30/6/12)

husky said:


> Heres mine, has a stainless inner basket inside a 75L vessel. I have tried with and without the BIAB bag and its definatly easier to clean up with it. Recirculates through a RIMS system controlled by a PID. Very simple and minimal effort to run. Possibly too simple and easy, Im now thinking of 3V so I have more stainless to play with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The inner stainless basket on your rig is on top of my wish list, it's a thing of beauty!


----------



## Fat Bastard (4/7/12)

Showerhead turned up in the post today. Not brewing this weekend so I can set it up properly. Will post pics when it's done

Last weekend's brew saw a return to 86% efficiency after stirring halfway through the mash. Was aiming for 90% efficiency, but I figure 86 is close enough given that I was using a new lot of grain and I have no control over the crush that the LHBS decides to do.

I ran the pump slower this time and saw a lot more crud in the bottom of the kettle, which I did not dump. I guess we'll see if this as any effect on the final clarity of the beer. I cracked the Aus. Pale Ale I did for my 2nd recirc brew over the weekend, and it's by far the clearest brew I have ever done, after less than 2 weeks in the bottle. I dumped the mash trub on that one, so i guees the next one to be ready will show the effect.

How fast do you guys run the pump when recirculating?

Cheers,

FB


----------



## husky (4/7/12)

I have the pump outlet ball valve set around 1/2 way. If I have it any more open I can see the height in the inner basket rise up to 50mm higher than the level in the main kettle as it struggles to keep up filtering through the grain bed.
I try to run as fast as I can keeping the level in both pots the same ie maximum flow rate through the grain bed.


----------



## bignath (4/7/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> How fast do you guys run the pump when recirculating?



I agree with this from husky....
v
v



husky said:


> I have the pump outlet ball valve set around 1/2 way. If I have it any more open I can see the height in the inner basket rise up to 50mm higher than the level in the main kettle as it struggles to keep up filtering through the grain bed.
> I try to run as fast as I can keeping the level in both pots the same ie maximum flow rate through the grain bed.



I blew my first (and so far the only) element in my single vessel by not thinking about recirculation speed. I ended up pulling the wort out from under the basket in my rig way faster than it could filter back through properly. Element saw air and bang......puff of smoke, and then a painfully slow and pitiful boil, as i was down to one element...

Nowadays, i have installed two of these on my wort return silicone hose...one at the pump end, and a second near the input connector in the lid of my rig...

I now run the valves at halfway, and it seems to work well.

http://www.bunnings.com.au/products_produc...-12mm_2498.aspx

piccy...


----------



## brad81 (4/7/12)

Why do you use 2 Big Nath?

I was thinking of just controlling it using a single ball valve to the pump (of course that is the plan (hanging for a pump to arrive to try it out)).


----------



## Fat Bastard (4/7/12)

I just changed to a more open weave voille from the standard stuff and found that with "normal" grain bills (around 4-5.5kg) I can run the ball valve wide open without sucking the wort from around the element, and I get much clearer wort. However, the grainbed tends to get a bit kicked up by turbulence and is kind of uneven. I suspect the faster it runs, the better efficiency I get too.

The first time I tried the recirc I ran it flat out with a 9kg bill and scorched the element, but I'm hoping that the more open voille will prevent this happening again, because there certainly seems to be a correlation between recirc speed and wort clarity. Even at flat out though, I can't seem to clear up the wort under the bag as much as I would like to!


----------



## bignath (4/7/12)

brad81 said:


> Why do you use 2 Big Nath?



Ahh, that's the "genius" part right there....

The top one (where it returns the wort to the top through the lid) controls the re-entry speed.
The bottom one helps to keep the hose worth of wort in the hose whilst i either carry the whole pump and hose assemble to the sink to clean it, or hold it above the kettle and add it back in. Without a valve at each end of the hose i used to dump little puddles all over the ground or my feet.

Basically, at the end of the mash, i shut off all three valves. The brass ball valve that feeds the pump and my dial thermo, the one that is attached just after the pump, and the third one at the top of the lid.
I then disconnect the pump assembly, and lose only the contents of the pump, then disconnect the hose, hold it over the kettle, open both valves and collect the contents of the hose.

Too easy.

It doesn't add any other benefits to the rig apart from practicality.


----------



## brad81 (4/7/12)

So: Gardena quick connect flow controllers.

Nice


----------



## kymba (4/7/12)

yeah i've found the bag clogs up with fine particles when you constantly recirculate, and is the main reason i'm going towards a BM style rig

i found that limiting the amount of mash steps to about 2 and only recircing when raising the temps helped a bit - so i would go from a 67 mash in for 45-60mins, then recirc & ramp up to 72 for 10, then ramp up to mashout. but i only did this a couple of times before i got the shits with it and started mashing in a 25L bucket in a real ghetto 2v+herms setup


----------



## bignath (5/7/12)

Here's a piccie of the new single vessel rig i built last night...

Just in case my earlier ramblings didn't make sense to the people who asked about recirc speed and all that....

Im calling it "The EZBrew V2"




and yes, before someone else mentions it.....i need to buy more coffee.


----------



## MastersBrewery (5/7/12)

Big Nath, what do the internals look like. Very tidy setup BTW.



And yeah there aint enough coffee to get me to the next day, hope that got sorted right quick!


----------



## bignath (5/7/12)

Here you go...

internal shot:



thermowell on the left, wort return on the right:


----------



## bignath (5/7/12)

basket inside the pot:



basket with legs:


----------



## brad81 (5/7/12)

Does that little element get 40 odd litres to a full boil, or do you bang an immersion element in?


----------



## bignath (5/7/12)

brad81 said:


> Does that little element get 40 odd litres to a full boil, or do you bang an immersion element in?



it will get it to, and maintain a nice simmer with a gentle roll, but i wouldn't really call it a boil.

In the first build (in my signature) i have two of those elements in the pot and no worries boiling 46/47lt's vigorously.

Just wanted a slightly neater setup this time around, and nearly forgot i had my handheld, so for the time being, i'm gonna use that and only have one element installed.

I only use one element for the brewday apart from the boil ramping and maintaining. Initial strike water is from the hot water so it only takes the little element 10mins (while i crush my grain) to reach strike temp.


----------



## bignath (5/7/12)

in a perfect world, if i had the time and inclination, i'd probably go with a bottom upwards recirculation like the braumeister, braumiser etc. but the beauty about this design is that i literally knocked it up in around 2 hours. The rest of the maybe 5 hours i spent on it was dawdling and dicking around with calibrating sightglass, thermometers, cleaning it up and generally standing back with a beer looking at it.

Way too simple a build to produce a decent beer surely....

the only things i'd mention if someone is thinking of doing something like this, are:

1. make sure you throttle back, or at least keep a good eye on the recirc speed otherwise the wort wont filter through the grain bed as fast as the pump will suck it out. You'll expose an element and then it's game over for that brew.

2. Have a spare element. I've blown one of these, but i'm pretty confident i've sorted the issue (as above) and haven't had a problem since the first brew. Done maybe 6 on it now. Well, i've done 6 on the first build. This new one is exactly the same but a bit neater, bit bigger and a bit simpler so it won't be a problem.

Total cost for the build is approx:

$150 pot
$16-30 for the pump depending where you get it from
$10 silicone hose
$10 kmart kettle for the element, or spend a similar amount for a different element from ebay
$40 hose fittings if you want the valves in the return line
$30 maybe, for all of the brass fittings, copper length for the thermowell and return line, and ball valve. 
$30 stc controller
Can get away with not having the dial thermo and the sightglass, but they are handy additions that i already had lying around.

So $300 total, and two to three hours work.

piece of piss.

of course if your thinking about building something like this, chances are you already have access to some of this stuff. The first build cost about that much for me, but this second build obviously only cost me the price of the pot, as i've stolen the parts needed from the original build, which if i ever use it again, can be put back together very quickly.


----------



## kymba (5/7/12)

awesome work - if you could fix that lid to the inner basket you could 'force' recirculate


----------



## Fat Bastard (7/7/12)

Showerhead arrived a few days ago, so instead of doing something "constructive" I've been doing something constructive.










My S/S tee fitting arrived (finally) too, so I really need to have a good hard think about plumbing a temp probe into the recirc. circuit. If I fit it behind the ball valve I think it will make things a bit too long and awkward for storage, so I may fit it to the recirculation pump inlet. Not sure I even need it, because I've done 5 brews without it, and while there is a bit of temperature lag in the system, it does equalise pretty quickly.

I'm also thinking of adding a second ball valve and pickup into the kettle/tun for recirculation only, so I can run a hop screen on the other. I'm still not happy with the trub cones I get from whirlpooling and it starts to collapse and get into the pickup once there's only a couple of litres of wort left in the kettle.


----------



## brad81 (12/7/12)

Whilst waiting for the brown pump to arrive, I scouted arounde for a colander and came up with the following. My "base" to keep the bag off the bottom of the pot. 20min with a hammer and centre punch.


----------



## black_labb (22/8/12)

Been playing around with the system and am very happy with it. Some comments and mods below. I'm very happy with the northern brown I've made using the system.


- I've been using grain crushed in my corona mill/shredder with minimal issue. I found that little bits of husk would find its way through the slots I've cut and a few would end up in the boil. I've cut a circle of swiss voile that roughly fits down the bottom to stop this. I think a better crush would improve this as would a more traditional false bottom style material. Swiss voile works just as well though. 

- I can fit 6kg of grain in the big w 19L pot. max is probably about 6.2-6.5kg but the more you have in there the less head space you have meaning you need to watch for overflowing more carefully. 

- Sparging by pouring water through the grain bed is very inefficient as it runs through the grain bed too quickly as the flow cannot be restricted. I think as a simply system full volume is ideal with maybe 1L of water from the kettle splashed around the top of the grain bed. 

- I was able to do a successful sparge by sitting my malt pipe into a second big W pot and add the sparge water that way. The second pot restricts flow until you lift the malt pipe up letting it flow easily. 

- Efficiency is a bit variable as I've been mucking around with sparging quantities/not sparging ect but full volume I'd suggest I'm getting 77-82% for most brews 4.5-5.5kg malt. My last brew was a dubbel with 6kg of malt and I got about 84-85% efficiency by doing a sparge using a borrowed 19L pot, this is the first attempt using this method. 

- I think I'm going to stick to no sparge or minimal sparge for sub 1060 brews but when doing big beers I'll be doing a sparge as I don't have the option to just chuck an extra 200g of base malt in if the malt pipe is already full. 

- I've been speeding up the period where the malt in the malt pipe gets saturated and up to temp with a kettle of boiling water. I found that there isn't much flow through the grain until it has come up to saccrification temps and without much flow the temp barely rises creating a viscious cycle. This was only noticed on an oatmeal stout where the oats made it quite sticky, but probably happens to a lesser extent with other beers. This also had the corona-shredded grain which would have made it worse. a bit of hot water can help get things up to temp and flowing correctly through the malt.

- I shortened the section of hose and located the pump by running an elbow from the outlet from the kettle to the pump instead of a section of hose. This makes it tidier looking and keeps the pump where it should be.

- I've ordered some glass hole saw bits so I can mod the lid to take the wort entry instead of the messy copper flex hoop at present.

- The PID seems to keep the temp around 1 degree higher than the set temp. I've just gone through the instructions and realised that I never ran the autotune setting which should fix this. I don't really mind though as I have it measuring the hottest part anywhere in the system.


Here is a photo so you can remember the system and because I just want to put more photos up.


----------



## erkele (22/8/12)

Thats awesome!! I am loving it, more pictures please! this is like beer porn!!!

HAHA


----------



## black_labb (23/8/12)

thanks, have a look through the first page for some more photos.


----------



## fraser_john (23/8/12)

black_labb said:


> <snip>
> 
> - The PID seems to keep the temp around 1 degree higher than the set temp. I've just gone through the instructions and realised that I never ran the autotune setting which should fix this. I don't really mind though as I have it measuring the hottest part anywhere in the system.
> 
> <snip>



Did you also calibrate the PID offset with the probe you are using? There should be an offset setting which you can set, it might be that the PID is doing exactly the temp you want but the probe is 1c off in what it is reading.


----------



## black_labb (23/8/12)

I've adjusted the offset to get the correct temp (default was about 1 degree off). The pid control uses the adjusted temp for the input to the control loop. The autotune lets the pid adjust it's logic parameters to suit the system.


----------



## breakbeer (26/8/12)

I finally finished Phase 1 of my single vessel rig on Friday night and broke her in on Saturday. I put down a LC Bright Ale recipe that a mate has done a few times.

OG 1.050 FG 1.013. Colour 3.6 / 7.1 Bitterness. 36.2 IBU Alcohol 4.8%
All Grain 23L batch size. 60min Boil. 70% Efficiency

Grain Bill: 
Pilsner Grain	1.7	63.64 %	3.50 Kg / 7.72 Lbs
Wheat Malt Grain	2.0	22.73 %	1.25 Kg / 2.76 Lbs
Carapils (Dextrine)	Grain	1.0	5.45 % 0.30 Kg / 0.66 Lbs
Vienna Grain	3.0	5.45 % 0.30 Kg / 0.66 Lbs
Acidulated Malt	Grain	1.8	2.73 % 0.15 Kg / 0.33 Lbs
Hop Additions: 
B Saaz 6.8%	8.00 g / 0.28 oz	Boil	40 mins
Cascade	7.8%	8.00 g / 0.28 oz	Boil	40 mins
B Saaz 6.8%	10.00 g / 0.35 oz	Boil	15 mins
Cascade	7.8%	10.00 g / 0.35 oz	Boil	15 mins
B Saaz 6.8%	15.00 g / 0.53 oz	Boil	0 mins
Cascade	7.8%	15.00 g / 0.53 oz	Boil	0 mins
B Saaz 6.8%	13.00 g / 0.46 oz	Dry Hop	0 mins
Cascade	7.8%	13.00 g / 0.46 oz	Dry Hop	0 mins
Yeast: Safale US-05
Mash 60min
Initial Water: 34L
Strike Temp 68
Mash at 65


I missed the OG by quite a bit, ended up at 1.058 but I'm fairly happy with how it all went. Just have to figure out where I went wrong

Here's a pic of the new member of the family


----------



## breakbeer (9/9/12)

I ended up having so much fun that I did back-to-back brew days. Even though the OG reading for both beers was above expected (1.058 instead of 1.050) they now both have a FG of 1.013, which is exactly what the recipe was aiming for. Stoked!

They've had 2 weeks in primary & I'll cc for one more week, if I can wait that long. Chomping at the bit to try my first AG beer!


----------



## black_labb (9/9/12)

missed that the first time breakbeer, looks great. Sounds like the brewday went pretty smooth if you decided to go back to back on the first brew!


----------



## breakbeer (13/10/12)

Brew day just got a whole lot easier on the forearms....




try not to laugh at my dodgy carpentry skills,


----------



## Eggs (13/10/12)

where did you guys buy your pots from? theres so much choice out there its hard to decide what the best value is.


----------



## bignath (13/10/12)

It's awesome to see so many single vessel breweries using the crab cooker insert on legs as the guard for the bag as well as to allow easy drainage, easy liftage, and easy sparging.

It's an idea that really works well.

Keep the builds coming!


----------



## notung (14/10/12)

breakbeer said:


> Brew day just got a whole lot easier on the forearms....
> 
> View attachment 57772
> 
> ...



Your stand is awesome. Well done on that! Where'd you think of your brewery name?


----------



## breakbeer (14/10/12)

Thanks man, just don't look too closely at it, not the straightest bit of carpentry you'll ever see.

Chicken is my nickname, seemed appropriate


----------



## Fents (15/10/12)

breakbeer said:


> Brew day just got a whole lot easier on the forearms....
> 
> View attachment 57772
> 
> ...



bloody sensational! nice one gchick ;-) would love to come out for a brewday and some beats soon.


----------



## breakbeer (15/10/12)

Fents said:


> bloody sensational! nice one gchick ;-) would love to come out for a brewday and some beats soon.



Thanks man

For sure, lets hook up a brew day real soon, my brew room is next door to Sam's DJ room so beats are never too far away

I'm sure you could teach me a thing or seven too


----------



## mattlea266 (12/11/12)

Love all the ideas on this thread. Just wanted some experienced opinions on one I am throwing together. Should I go for an internal feed back into the mash with copper pipe (big nath style) or some sort of sprinkler style above the mash (fat bastard style). I thought as I am using a bag it would be better to keep the grain moving to extract more sugars and improve efficiency. Thinking a pipe from the lid to the bottom of my crab basket and then a tee at the bottom with some more copper and holes pointing up towards the lid to stir up the grain so it does not settle. Thanks for advice in advance.


----------



## bignath (12/11/12)

mattyl said:


> Love all the ideas on this thread. Just wanted some experienced opinions on one I am throwing together. Should I go for an internal feed back into the mash with copper pipe (big nath style) or some sort of sprinkler style above the mash (fat bastard style). I thought as I am using a bag it would be better to keep the grain moving to extract more sugars and improve efficiency. Thinking a pipe from the lid to the bottom of my crab basket and then a tee at the bottom with some more copper and holes pointing up towards the lid to stir up the grain so it does not settle. Thanks for advice in advance.



Well, obviously i'd go with the "through the mash" idea. I certainly gave a lot of thought to the sprinkler/shower head style design, but on the first brew i blew my first element which was caused by the basket not allowing the wort to filter back through the compacting grain bed to allow the element to remain covered. 
I fixed that by throttling back my brown pump, but i can't help but think that the sprinkler type setup runs the risk of this happening EASIER - not guaranteed, but i reckon it will make it easier for it to happen.

With the wort actively forcing it's way through the mash, i feel it has a better chance to get to the pump again.

I also thought of doing what your suggesting, by having the wort coming back up through the mash, but i ran out of copper pipe and couldn't be stuffed getting more. The other problem with that idea is that if the lid needs to be removed for a quick stir or a cheeky look at the mash, you run the risk of having the wort coming back at you and out the pot??

Also, be careful about how many holes you drill. More seems like a good idea, but will need more flow rate to make it work. If you have a bigger pump than the little brown one it won't be a problem. I had to redo my first wort return because i drilled the ass out of it, and the pump (i felt) struggled to utilise all of the holes effectively. Start with a smaller amount and drill more as you need them. Drill, check, drill, check etc....


----------



## BPH87 (12/11/12)

Big Nath said:


> Well, obviously i'd go with the "through the mash" idea. I certainly gave a lot of thought to the sprinkler/shower head style design, but on the first brew i blew my first element which was caused by the basket not allowing the wort to filter back through the compacting grain bed to allow the element to remain covered.
> I fixed that by throttling back my brown pump, but i can't help but think that the sprinkler type setup runs the risk of this happening EASIER - not guaranteed, but i reckon it will make it easier for it to happen.
> 
> With the wort actively forcing it's way through the mash, i feel it has a better chance to get to the pump again.
> ...



Hey Big Nath,

Have you got any pictures of your updated rig?

Cheers,

Ben


----------



## bignath (12/11/12)

Nah mate, i haven't sorry. Will hopefully take some soon though. Just need work to slow down a little so i can concentrate on beer.

BUT, assuming you are familiar with my single vessel design, here are the changes i've made from the one in my signature.

1. Bigger pot. Went to a 60lt Aluminium pot, as it came with a crab cooker insert that was considerably bigger than the insert i was using.
Same principle, just bigger capacity.

2. Removed the dial thermo and T piece from the recirculation line. Just wasn't necessary.

3. With the bigger pot, i installed only 1 element in the side, down low, underneath the crab cooker insert, just like the other pot had, but in the side wall, not from underneath of vessel.

I now use 2 handheld immersion heaters for my boil duties, and the cheap ass kmart kettle element is only used to maintain mash temp and heat strike water.

4. No drain out from bottom of pot. Now it drains through a ball valve in the standard front location in the side wall of pot. This then feeds the pump, which pushes it back up the top and back in through the lid.

5. Better inline valves in the recirc path. One attaches directly to the pump outlet, and the other in the lid to control the return flow rate.

6. Have relocated the thermowell to the 12 O'clock position in the back side wall so it slides in underneath the crab cooker insert and reached the middle of the pots diameter - Cheers QldKev for the suggestion. It works so much better without it being in the lid.

These changes whilst small, have completely revolutionised my brewdays. Without anything mounted in the botttom of the pot surface, i don't have to use a milk crate as i can use my old SS brewtable instead which has power, hooks for storage, the stc mounted to it, the mill installed in it etc....heaps easier for brewday work flow.

So, if you compare this list of small mods to the original rig in the signature, you'll get a good idea of how my rig works now. The process is unchanged, but ease of use is much greater.
I really, really look forward to brewdays now. 

Now all i need to work on with it is my efficiency. Been concentrating on consistency. Getting 69% repeated with my mill set at 1.4mm as i was having problems pulling the grain in at .9mm, but i've tested it at 1.1/1.2 and it pulls through well. I've been double crushing at 1.4, so i might pull the gap in a bit for the next brew, as i'm used to hitting mid 80's with my 3V rig. 

any more questions, just ask!

Cheers,

Nath


----------



## breakbeer (13/11/12)

I'm also trying to figure out what to do with my wort return, at the moment it's just fed through a quick connect in the lid. Been leaning towards something like the coiled copper pipe like the one in this thread: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=68319


My first couple of brews I had to really throttle back the pump & even turn it completely off so that it didn't fill the bag too much or expose the element, (Thanks to Big Nath for the heads up on that one) I solved this by drilling about 100 extra 3mm holes in the standard crab cooker. Now it drains beautifully. Have to admit though, it took only half an hour to drill the holes, then another 2 hours cleaning up the burrs on every hole <_<


----------



## mattlea266 (14/11/12)

I just had another thought. In keeping with the BIAB technique I use a coffee grinder for my grain. Any thoughts on whether this will be an issue, dont really want to drop any more money for mill. I ended up making a bottom feeder, hopefully this will keep the grain moving so it does not clog, will wait and see. Waiting for the 12v adapter for pump before I start drilling holes in copper. Be interesting to see how many holes I can get away with.


----------



## QldKev (14/11/12)

Thought I would throw a brew through on my "Little Bro" system today. Here's a couple of pics of the setup as it stands now, ( always tinkering :lol: )

First pic shows the heating element, allows step mashes and is used for the boil. Also notice there is 2 return lines. The bottom one allows a recirc in under the false bottom to ensure adequate wort flow past the element at all times. 




Second pic shows homemade false bottom in place. It's a 15 inch pizza tray on legs. You'll see it covers the pickup and the bottom return and the element to ensure the bag cannot touch it during the brew. Also the measurements on the side 32L, 29L and 25L. 32L is the initial water level, 29L is once I lift the bag and add some runnings back if needed; finally 25L is post boil. 




Third pic shows the full system including the pump. In case you can't work out the insulation on the vessel there is 3 layers there as I found the 2KW element the minimum for the job. The brew stand is an unused Black and Decker work table. The mis-match of fitting is because I used what was left over in the brewery/workshop. 




Last pic is of the return arm in action. It sits under the water/wort level once the grain is in. That's about 4L/min via the top and another 10L/min via the bottom return. There's a total of 8 holes for the wort return, 2 form the end, 4 from the sides and underneath two facing back towards the ball valve. (9 if you include me not tightening up the compression fitting onto the return arm)




I'm really enjoying this system as it's very simple and fun to use, and a lot simpler to setup and clean than my 3V. (but my 3V allows up to 4 times the vol to be produced)


QldKev


----------



## breakbeer (14/11/12)

mattyl said:


> I just had another thought. In keeping with the BIAB technique I use a coffee grinder for my grain. Any thoughts on whether this will be an issue, dont really want to drop any more money for mill. I ended up making a bottom feeder, hopefully this will keep the grain moving so it does not clog, will wait and see. Waiting for the 12v adapter for pump before I start drilling holes in copper. Be interesting to see how many holes I can get away with.




I can't comment on the coffee grinder, although I definitely know what you're saying about forking out for a grain mill. Trying to convince swmbo it'd be a good investment is the main problem I'm having


That wort return pipe is bloody awesome, love the simplicity of it too. Might have to 'take inspiration' from that design


----------



## mattlea266 (20/11/12)

Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about. 

Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed. 
This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels. 
The design of my outlet pipe is such that it is supposed to agitate the grain in the bottom but because I was turning pump down or off it wasn't that successful. I use swiss voile and coffee grinder for grain which I think made the problem worse. Any ideas if BIAB Bag and mill would offer better results.

On positive side early checks show at least 10% efficiency improvement and I kept mash temp within 0.5 of a degree for the entire mash.
I think the rest of the issues I had will be smoothed over future brews.


----------



## Dan Pratt (20/11/12)

mattyl said:


> Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.
> 
> Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
> This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
> ...




can we see wsome pics of the rest of the rig?


----------



## QldKev (20/11/12)

mattyl said:


> Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.
> 
> Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
> This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
> ...




My "Little Bro" system is a couple of posts back. I'm milling at 0.9mm (to suit my 3V) and using a Swiss voile bag. I have no issues with the flow, even if I recirculate a lot more than a brown pump flows. So I would say yes it should help you.

Can you get someone to mill a batch of grain for you to try it out?
Could it be your basket is causing the flow restriction?
Does the basket sit above the pickup?


Where's the pics :wub: 


QldKev


----------



## bignath (20/11/12)

mattyl said:


> Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
> This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
> 
> I know exactly what you mean. I had the same problem on my first brew with my Recirc BIAB rig when i ran the pump flat out. Have since been running it at half flow rate, and the problem has vanished. I blew my first element doing what you did and haven't had an issue with speed or blown elements since throttling it back.
> ...



With the small inconvenience of your flow problem above (which WILL be remedied by throttling back your pump), i'd say you've had a pretty good brewday!




Pratty1 said:


> can we see wsome pics of the rest of the rig?



+1. Would love to see some shots of it in action!


----------



## mkstalen (20/11/12)

I'm slowly embarking on by build of a Recirculating Single Vessel BIAB, based on Big Nath's rig build, but on a tight budget.
Hoping to get some feedback and let me know if I'm attempting any big no-no's.

Pot: Large 40L(?) aluminium pot with a SS ball valve already attached, and small 90deg brass pickup.
Basket: 20L food grade HDPE plastic bucket with a stack of holes drilled in the bottom, sitting on stainless steel bolt "legs" to keep it off the burners. (Al-la bucket-o-death systems).
Heating: 2 x $8 Big W kettle elements to be fitted into either side of the pot (Will I have issued due to the curve of the pot? Should I position one nearer the tap to ensure movement around the element?)
Piping: Hose fittings and food grade clear reinforced hose
"The return": Hard black plastic bits from sprinkler system (not sure if food grade, problem?). This will be attached to the underside of the lid of the 20L bucket to return the wort into the centre of the BIAB bag.
Temp control: Yet to be purchased STC-1000, probe to be contained inside a thermowell of narrow silicone hose also fed into system via bucket lid.
Pump: Still tossing up between the 12V "Little Brown Pump" or a 240V MP-15RM from Aliexpress.

Yes, it sounds a little ghetto. Funds are tight, hence using plastic fittings rather than brass or SS.

Comments, criticisms?


----------



## breakbeer (20/11/12)

If you're using a crab cooker type basket than heed the advice in my earlier post & drill a hundred or so more holes in it




mattyl said:


> Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.
> 
> Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
> This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
> ...


----------



## bignath (20/11/12)

Righto mate, here goes with my findings/opinions...



stienberg said:


> I'm slowly embarking on by build of a Recirculating Single Vessel BIAB, based on Big Nath's rig build, but on a tight budget.
> Hoping to get some feedback and let me know if I'm attempting any big no-no's.
> 
> Pot: Large 40L(?) aluminium pot with a SS ball valve already attached, and small 90deg brass pickup. Will be fine.
> ...


----------



## mattlea266 (20/11/12)

Thanks for all replies

Can you get someone to mill a batch of grain for you to try it out? 
Yes, Ill ask him to borrow his mill. When I lifted basket to remove grain it was just trickling through, I know that when grain is submerged in the wort grain bed is looser, but it really does settle quickly. I had to regularly stir with spoon to get the wort level to move at all.
Could it be your basket is causing the flow restriction? 
Possibly, but when testing with just water, pumped without a hitch. I also added some extra holes to try and avoid what happened today.


Does the basket sit above the pickup?
Yes, its on legs.

Added some photos but I will try to get some action shots next time I'm brewing. Pretty hard with the lid on as wort sprays up as well.



Holes drilled in all directions to try and maintain movement. Does anyone else notice a bit of a lag in the "thermowell", probe may not have been in far enough


2 X $8 kettle elements, had to run off two separate circuits in the house. Raises 2 degrees per minute on 30 litres. Very vigorous boil with both elements. With one element it was still better than my gas cooktop. 


Cheap pulley system made life much easier.


Had a spare STC1000 from fermenting fridge so thought I might as well use it. Cant run both element off one STC 1000 mainly because it trips the circuit breaker. Scored a sweet table on wheels yesterday which is perfect size. Ended up getting stainless fittings for disconnects because after pricing bunnings for brass hose fittings I think this worked out cheaper and I didn't need to get any reducing nipples or bushes. Any brass on the rig is purely because I already had it at home
I think that's it


----------



## zxhoon (20/11/12)

You could use the STC1000 to switch a two pole relay that would have each supply coming in and then out to each element, then they would both be controlled and using your two circuits, would need a sparky to do it but any industrial electrician could do it, shouldnt cost much...


----------



## MaltyHops (20/11/12)

mattyl said:


> ... I think that's it


Adding support to that pump might be worth thinking about
- sounds like quite a few people have had the outlet shaft
break.

Maybe a T-shaped piece of wood or something could be placed
behind the pump inlet, pum body and pump outlet that is then
all cable tied together.


----------



## mattlea266 (20/11/12)

zxhoon said:


> You could use the STC1000 to switch a two pole relay that would have each supply coming in and then out to each element, then they would both be controlled and using your two circuits, would need a sparky to do it but any industrial electrician could do it, shouldnt cost much...


I only have to run an extension lead 10m so its no big deal. The second STC1000 only runs when getting ready for mash in to get to strike temp quicker and so I dont go over temp if im not paying attention.


----------



## thebigwilk (20/11/12)

Good to see your system QLD KEV. Heres mines Still working a treat getting 80% efficiency with a full recirculating mash no sparge biab system


----------



## bignath (20/11/12)

bigwilk,

where'd you get that box from mate?

Very well thought out rig that one...


----------



## thebigwilk (20/11/12)

Big Nath said:


> bigwilk,
> 
> where'd you get that box from mate?
> 
> Very well thought out rig that one...


Ebay http ://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Weather-Enclosure-Cover-Housing-For-Marine-Stereo-Radio-/390268257386?pt=US_Marine_Audio&hash=item5addcd046a&_uhb=1#ht_921wt_906


----------



## bignath (20/11/12)

thebigwilk said:


> Ebay http ://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Weather-Enclosure-Cover-Housing-For-Marine-Stereo-Radio-/390268257386?pt=US_Marine_Audio&hash=item5addcd046a&_uhb=1#ht_921wt_906



Genius, pure genius.


----------



## breakbeer (21/11/12)

mattyl said:


> Could it be your basket is causing the flow restriction?
> Possibly, but when testing with just water, pumped without a hitch. I also added some extra holes to try and avoid what happened today.
> View attachment 58622



Of course it's gonna pump just water without a problem, it's water AND grain you need to worry about

Snapped a quick photo of the holes I drilled in mine, MUCH better flow since then & I can run the pump without throttling it back


----------



## bignath (21/11/12)

Have been thinking of doing exactly the same thing to my basket.

Im convinced im getting some sugars trapped in the grain due to it not draining as fast as possible. I could be barking up the wrong tree, but it's my theory anyway. 

Couldn't HURT to have more holes drilled, unless it starts compromising the structural integrity of the basket, so i'll do small ones like you have done.


----------



## thebigwilk (21/11/12)

breakbeer said:


> Of course it's gonna pump just water without a problem, it's water AND grain you need to worry about
> 
> Snapped a quick photo of the holes I drilled in mine, MUCH better flow since then & I can run the pump without throttling it back
> 
> View attachment 58634


I would also have a look at what is happening below the basket i.e your foundation water is not moving much around your heat elements with only 

the flow created by the pick up, there would be a lot of dead spots and not good even heat pattern going through the mash. A solution would be 

to put another return in below the basket with a 90 degree bend on it to make a whirlpool type effect, this way its doing two things its going 

to disturb any least path of resistance that slowly happens when pumping through the mash and its going to give a much more even heat wave down there.


----------



## mattlea266 (22/11/12)

thebigwilk said:


> I would also have a look at what is happening below the basket i.e your foundation water is not moving much around your heat elements with only
> 
> the flow created by the pick up, there would be a lot of dead spots and not good even heat pattern going through the mash. A solution would be
> 
> ...



I have not been too worried about the movement of the wort as the mash inlet pipe, when pump is running at full flow, moves quite a bit of wort in all directions. Along with the hot wort rising and cooler wort dropping I think this would create enough movement and mixing in the vessell. I have ordered a proper grain bag to try and have organised to borrow grain mill for next brewday. If these changes work better Santa might bring me a Millmaster MKII.

I do like the idea of the second inlet pipe so if necessary I can regulate flows a bit more. Mainly thought it would be good for whirlpooling. Since adding elements and outlet I cant whirlpool with spoon which use to work really well. 
Im happy to make adjustments to rig but I will see how it goes with next brew. Im also going to add more holes to basket as per breakbeer.

Imagine what I could achieve if I put this much time and thought into my real job, hhhmmm, screw that.


----------



## eamonnfoley (22/11/12)

What sort of L:G ratio do you guys aim for? I do a HERMS BIAB at 4L:kg, and don't need a wort return (just silicon hose). Works a treat and I just top up with water to preboil volume. Assuming people use a wort return only to avoid upsetting the grain bed when carrying out some kind of sparge with the malt pipe? You wouldnt bother with the bag as it gets disturbed anyway.....


----------



## mattlea266 (3/12/12)

Completed another brew today. Have drilled extra holes in my basket, got a grain bag instead of using swiss voile and borrowed a carona style mill. I had great flow and everything was going fine until brown pump stopped working. Washed it out with hose and got it going again but this happened a few more times. Got through mash and was going to use it for recirculating PBW after boil and she wouldn't go. Tried another 12v adapter, nothing. Pulled it apart, nothing obvious to my untrained eye.

Is this common with these?

I pretty much have no option but to get another one because I am not forking out $250+ for a march pump ATM. I might get one from local supplier instead of foreign, I assume they are the same pump though.


----------



## QldKev (3/12/12)

mattyl said:


> Completed another brew today. Have drilled extra holes in my basket, got a grain bag instead of using swiss voile and borrowed a carona style mill. I had great flow and everything was going fine until brown pump stopped working. Washed it out with hose and got it going again but this happened a few more times. Got through mash and was going to use it for recirculating PBW after boil and she wouldn't go. Tried another 12v adapter, nothing. Pulled it apart, nothing obvious to my untrained eye.
> 
> Is this common with these?
> 
> I pretty much have no option but to get another one because I am not forking out $250+ for a march pump ATM. I might get one from local supplier instead of foreign, I assume they are the same pump though.




Why not spend a bit more than a brown pump and get a kaixin pump?

QldKev


----------



## mattlea266 (3/12/12)

QldKev said:


> Why not spend a bit more than a brown pump and get a kaixin pump?
> 
> QldKev


Hey QldKev. Thats what I have spent the last hour looking at. Was going to get a millmaster for christmas but might be a pump and carona mill. I read your review on them but that one is now unavailable off the link you supplied. Do you know of another supplier in that price range that will sell one unit. 
I think I would prefer the threadless type like you got for similar reasons.

If I got Kaixin I think I would add that second inlet at the bottom of the pot similar to what you done. 

Pretty annoyed brown pump only lasted 2 brews.


----------



## QldKev (4/12/12)

mattyl said:


> Hey QldKev. Thats what I have spent the last hour looking at. Was going to get a millmaster for christmas but might be a pump and carona mill. I read your review on them but that one is now unavailable off the link you supplied. Do you know of another supplier in that price range that will sell one unit.
> I think I would prefer the threadless type like you got for similar reasons.
> 
> If I got Kaixin I think I would add that second inlet at the bottom of the pot similar to what you done.
> ...



2 brews is better than what I got. I broke mine before I got to do a brew :angry: 


Only mp-20 I can find is this one. I paid $80 posted, this one is $110. 

I remember seeing someone posted a link to a mp-15 which was high temp and a very good price, but I can't find it now.


QldKev


----------



## sp0rk (4/12/12)

http://kaixinpump.en.alibaba.com/product/6...netic_pump.html
There's your MP-15


----------



## Sammus (4/12/12)

QldKev said:


> 2 brews is better than what I got. I broke mine before I got to do a brew :angry:
> 
> 
> Only mp-20 I can find is this one. I paid $80 posted, this one is $110.
> ...



Here's an MP-15, not sure if it's a special high temp or what, it looks the same as the MP20 you linked though, with the same description.

If you tick electromagnetic, low pressure, water, standard then you can see a whole bunch of them, the 10RN,15R,20R,20RX,30RX,40R look the most interesting. The RX have higher flow and less head (the 30R only has higher flow at heads over 3m and the 20R at about 1.8m which probably wouldn't come up in our applications).

Actual Kaixin people linked in sp0rk post, but it requires minimum 50 units to order.


----------



## mattlea266 (4/12/12)

Funny thing. Pulled brown pump apart yesterday and could not get it to work. Plugged it in this morning and away it went. Running a test on it now but I am only using water. I think if it continues to give me grief I will get one of these two 
THIS ONE OR THIS ONE.

I figure if Im going to spend around $100+ for Kaixin might as well spend $200 on something I know will handle over 100c and has a proven track record, no offense to Kaixin pump owners. Reasoning for this is that I want to try and whirlpool with the pump later on. Gee, Im really saving money doing this homebrew thing. Fortunately its not really about saving money.
Oh, and I still "need" a mill.

Thanks for links all


----------



## bignath (4/12/12)

mattyl said:


> Oh, and I still "need" a mill.



Must be your lucky day!

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry977577


----------



## QldKev (4/12/12)

mattyl said:


> Funny thing. Pulled brown pump apart yesterday and could not get it to work. Plugged it in this morning and away it went. Running a test on it now but I am only using water. I think if it continues to give me grief I will get one of these two
> THIS ONE OR THIS ONE.
> 
> I figure if Im going to spend around $100+ for Kaixin might as well spend $200 on something I know will handle over 100c and has a proven track record, no offense to Kaixin pump owners. Reasoning for this is that I want to try and whirlpool with the pump later on. Gee, Im really saving money doing this homebrew thing. Fortunately its not really about saving money.
> ...



Getting further and further away from that $25 pump... 

The March have the reliability record. I run an 809 on my 3V and it self primes every time no problems. Plumbed up roughly the same the Kaixin takes a bit of stuffing around on my 1V. If you want to whirlpool definitely look at the 815 over the 809. Even look at the MAR AC-3B-MD / 230V There goes the mill for another year  

QldKev


----------



## mattlea266 (4/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> Must be your lucky day!
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry977577



Thanks Bignath

PM sent to him. I dont think I would buy one new but for that price second hand I think it will be fine. Im only doing 4-5 kg grain bills. It will leave me with more options if I end up changing pumps too.


----------



## sp0rk (5/12/12)

Aliexpress has the high temp MP15 pumps for around $70 shipped each


----------



## Sammus (5/12/12)

sp0rk said:


> Aliexpress has the high temp MP15 pumps for around $70 shipped each



Care to link it? a few posts up there a several links to MP-15 pumps on aliexpress. None of them claim high temp or offers a single unit shipped for $70.


----------



## porky (5/12/12)

here is the link

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MP-15RM-Hig.../672124722.html


----------



## MastersBrewery (5/12/12)

budwiser said:


> here is the link
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MP-15RM-Hig.../672124722.html




at the bottom of that page is a link to the same pump again but like $5 cheaper


----------



## QldKev (5/12/12)

read the comments about the impeller size on the high temp version


----------



## MastersBrewery (5/12/12)

QldKev said:


> read the comments about the impeller size on the high temp version




saw that was thinking of getting the standard version linked at the bottom of the page and if later find the impeller sticking shave the tiniest bit off it myself, then again so long as not using for post boil whirlpool, 80c rating should be fine


----------



## QldKev (5/12/12)

I use my non-high-temp kaixin up to 77c mash out temps, and it doesn't have any issues. I'm not too worried about whilpooling the kettle, I have a mash paddle that does it easy enough. 

QldKev


----------



## porky (5/12/12)

your welcome


----------



## Hpal (18/3/16)

Fat Bastard said:


> I guess if you're lifting the bag from the wort at full volume, you couldn't possibly notice it anyway, unless your wort is crystal clear and like water!
> 
> When I drain I see this in the last litre or so left.
> 
> ...


Hey FB,

How does that temp probe location work for you? I'm deciding whether to knock another hole in my kettle in a better spot. Are you using a PID controller for mash temps?


----------

