# Ahhh, The Dark Side Is Sooo Near..



## Pollux (12/3/09)

Well, my urn arrived this morning, less than 20hours since I ordered it.

As I said earlier this week, I am happy to post many pics......

Here's the ones from today's testing of the urn (ingredients should be here tomorrow)






Just out of the box







Test fitting the bag








With it's $4.99 jacket, comes with a matching hat..... I just did a "test mash" 30L of water heated to 66deg and left for 90mins with the lid on and a sleeping bag over the top, end temp 64deg....



So close, so very close.....


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## chappo1970 (12/3/09)

Looks great Pollux! When is the big day planned?
I got the same urn from CB's you won't be disappointed.


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## razE (12/3/09)

Yeah looks good mate! You wont go back to making beer any other way. Good luck with it!


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## boingk (12/3/09)

You maniac! :angry:

Haha, nah just messing with you - thats a good looking setup. I'm sure the first mash will run a charm with only a 2'C drop over 90min. Have you got a grain bill and hopping schedule yet?

- boingk


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## smollocks (12/3/09)

Since you're advertising your new urn, I'll throw a few questions your way 

- Did you make or buy the insulating jacket?
- Are you going to use the built-in tap for transferring wort, or will you siphon / add a ball valve?
- How long did it take to get 30L of water to strike temp?

It looks like you're in an apartment so I'm interested in how you go as I have similar restrictions.


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## Muggus (12/3/09)

Dunno why people keeping refering to AG as the dark side...Was Darth Vader a AGer?  

Looking good there Pollux. I should really aquire myself an urn like that, would be very handy!


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

Can you take more internal pics without the bag?


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

Right to answer all the above...

BoingK, I have one based upon an extract recipe I have previously enjoyed..



> Batch Size: 20.00 L
> Boil Size: 27.06 L
> Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
> Estimated Color: 17.1 EBC
> ...



smollocks:

1. Thats 4.99 camping mat from golo, I simply taped one end near the sight tube, then ran it around tightly and used a stanley knife to make the handles poke through, then I cut off the extra, from that I made the round piece for the lid.
2.For now I intend to use the inbuilt tap, I really want to find a way to pull it apart for cleaning, if that fails I may get a ballvalve in the future.
3.Honestly, I wasn't really paying attention, between cooking dinner and singing "twinkle twinkle little star" (my wife returned to work recently, I am currently off work on leave to allow her to settle in).......I tried earlier in the arvo before it got it's jacket, and it seemed to take ages, with the jacket I'd estimate 20-30 mins...

And yes, I am in an apartment, the kitchen is the technical brew zone, all fermenting and bottling occurs in the garage however....that reminds me, i need to set up the PC down there with all my MP3s.....


I am so anxious.......I almost want to buy a cigar for Saturday night, and I gave up smoking nearly a year ago....


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

Mark bastard....

Like this??







hehe, you can see my new chrome dome haircut in that one....


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

Any reason the insulation doesn't go all the way to the bottom? It is because the bottom is solid or something?


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

damn that's shiny, i can see your mug haha.

What's that little bar with the holes in it?


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## Ross (12/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> damn that's shiny, i can see your mug haha.
> 
> What's that little bar with the holes in it?



Mark,

Thats the cover over the temperature probe. clips off for easy cleaning if required.

cheers Ross


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

Insulation is not quite to the bottom as the urn is taller than the mat is wide....and I figure why insulate the electronics.......

And yes, uber shiny, I have no idea with the bar is, has a rod under it with a wire that goes under the base, I presume it to be the thermostat sensor or similar....EDIT, beaten by Ross...

Just getting it cranking now to do a test boil so I can get my boil off rate sorted. and for those that want to know, 2L is the volume to the base of the tap outlet.

And while Ross is being mentioned, dude seriously awesome customer service, and the fact that my door buzzer went off at 9:05 this morning.....I love Fastway Couriers...


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## FarsideOfCrazy (12/3/09)

Hi Pollux,

What are the bits of tube with holes in the bottom of the urn for? Does this allow liquid to go through the bottom to the element? 

If so how will you clean it?




Farside.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (12/3/09)

Ross said:


> Mark,
> 
> Thats the cover over the temperature probe. clips off for easy cleaning if required.
> 
> cheers Ross



questions coming in very quick, and so are the answers!!


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

Nice, so does it have its own thermostat then? Can you set it for strike temp?


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

I could, but I won't rely on it's accuracy....

It has a dial marked 30-110...in 5deg increments.

It's currently boiling away with it set at 110 with 30L in it, quite a vigorous boil too, I want to get my evap % right before I actually brew in it...


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

Even though I've got a 70L stainless pot I'm thinking about going this urn option, just because it's compact and 'all in one' and I would rather just do single batches on a 10amp circuit to make it easier. So please keep me in the loop with regards to any problems you may have etc with BIAB.


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

Pollux said:


> I could, but I won't rely on it's accuracy....
> 
> It has a dial marked 30-110...in 5deg increments.



Nice. Be good to for example set it at 70 on a timer for when you wake up so its already preheated, then you can measure and let it get hotter or cooler if you want before mashing. Good nice to have feature. That site window thing looks handy too, better than shoving a ruler in there to work out volume.


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

I'll be sure to provide a full run down of brew day, the laptop will be with me in the kitchen so expect many updates...

As for the sight glass, it comes unmarked but I busted out the 1L jug today to calibrate it with a permanent marker..

As for sticking it on a timer, if I got to brew during the day I'd do so, but most of my brewing is this time of night when the little assistant has gone to bed...


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## MarkBastard (12/3/09)

Well you can still use the thermostat to 'set and forget', ie walk away for 30 minutes without worrying about the posibility of boil overs or whatever else while rising to strike temp.


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

exactly....

Side note, I love the fact that you can take the boy from the country, but not the country from the boy...

I just saw the steam coming off the urn and thought "mmmm, I could use that to reshape my Akubras........" and then promptly went and dug them out and reshaped them, one had been quite badly squashed by the missus when she dumped a box of sewing shit on it...


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## Bribie G (12/3/09)

Nice piece of kit. I don't usually twirl the thermo dial - I just leave it permanently set it to 95 on the Birko which gives a rolling boil. For mashing I just wait until it gets to strike temp, switch off, fit the bag, dough in, then insulate and walk away. Then after draining, switch on again and soon get the rolling boil. 

Other hints: get a baby bath to dump the bag in. Is there anywhere in the garage to hang a sky hook from? If so you can get a cheap awning pulley for about five bucks and rig a nylon rope for hoisting the bag and hanging a hopsock.


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

No skyhook spots in the garage.......I looked already, there is an eyelet in the bedroom (I have no idea what the previous tenant hung from it, probably a sex swing) but the missus won't go for the urn sitting on the bed.....


I have a 25L food grade bucket ready for bag dumpage, my baby bath is currently used to catch drips while bottling..


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## FarsideOfCrazy (12/3/09)

Pollux what sort of bag is that? Did you make it or buy it?


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## Pollux (12/3/09)

Wife made it from poly swiss voile, triple stitched as straight-zizzag-straight on all seams.......

Was made to be oversized in case I upgrade later on.

That's me wearing it in the avatar....and I'm 6'4"......... It's a big bastard bag.



Another note, does anyone have a ball park figure for the rate at which pellet hops absorb water? one thing I haven't taken into account is the loss of wort to the hop sock upon removal......


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## Bizier (12/3/09)

Looking good Pollux.
Inner West represent!


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## Cocko (13/3/09)

Awesome Pollux, sounds like you are very under control!

If I had 2 sleeps to go I would be in bed [Twice in the next 3 hours] and brewing ASAP!!

Best of luck mate, BIAB is an awesome way to get awesome beer in my opinion...

I am only 18 BIAB's in and am yet to see a problem with a brew, just great, better than partial, beer so far! But am thinking about building a mash tun for many reasons.... 

GO GO GO!


:icon_cheers:


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

All this is now at the mercy of Auspost.......

If my grains/hops/yeast don't show up today, I am screwed till Monday....


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

Forget that, my grains are here.......


Now to go buy some drums to store near on 35kg of grain in.


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## JonnyAnchovy (13/3/09)

Looks like we'll be brewing at the same time tomorrow. I also just got the 40L crown from craftbrewer (on the same day as you, I think) - I know it's been said before, but they are one of *THE* best run outfits I've ever dealt with - their whole system just works so well!

I think I'm going to steal your jacket idea for both the kettle and HLT - good for future BIABs, but also to just make thw whole thing more efficient - all that steel must radiate a lot of heat.

I'm using the crown urn as a kettle (already have a 20L urn as HLT and converted esky/tun). Lets wish each other good luck for the weekend!


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

Best of luck to you my friend.....

Hops are all tucked away in the freezer, the missus is going to freak when she notices she has lost half a shelf of space....

I could almost do it right now, but I want to make sure I have everything set in place for when the time comes.

Tomorrow's shopping list.

1. Some bunnings water barrels to keep all this grain in.
2. A couple of jerries for NC
3. A hose to run from the tap to the NC jerries (BTW, the tap can be pulled apart, it just unscrews and a little force on the pull and it's free, was easy after I drained the test boil water out through the tap last night).
4. Mash paddle
5. Digital stick thermometer (I have been using a dial one, not really accurate)
6. A bottle of Unibroue Maudite to drink once it's all done, I figured it's about the same as having a cigar.
7. Something to hang the hop sock from, thinking planter hooks hanging from the sides of the urn.


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## Katherine (13/3/09)

Skyhooks are the way.... we just tie the pulley around the garage awning.... you can use your'e biab bag as the hop sock.... after use throw it in the washing machine....

dont forget to update the wiki tommorow... dare ya to have beer at mash in....!


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

Katie, I'm going to be a good boy.....

No drinkies until AT LEAST the first hop addition...

The last extract I did I got tanked in the process and f*cked it up royally......

Left in it the dead fridge with no ice blocks, 28deg ferment for 3 days......Still can't drink it after 3 months in the bottle.


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## Bribie G (13/3/09)

Pollux, what grade of sleeping bag did you use on your test run? I had never even thought of that, so convenient, slip it on and slip it off. I have a s.b. but it's geared more for light use in Qld. Might head for Anaconda and heck I can even use it for bushwalking up at Jimna near Kilcoy where it actually freezes some winter nights. The malt-aroma-permeated fabric will soothe me to sleep  and the grandson can have my lighter one, kids are tough h34r:


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## reviled (13/3/09)

BribieG said:


> The malt-aroma-permeated fabric will soothe me to sleep  and the grandson can have my lighter one, kids are tough h34r:



Bahaha, awesome :lol: I can see a new range of malt smelling pillows instead of lavender..


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## Katherine (13/3/09)

How does the urn work does it still go on a burner?


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## Bribie G (13/3/09)

Katie said:


> How does the urn work does it still go on a burner?



_Electric_ Urn. Power up to strike temp, dough in then switch off and insulate. Hoist n drain and switch on again to get to rolling boil. I usually hoist until a few cm above the wort so I can drain and heat at the same time. God I love talking dirty when there are females on the forum. h34r:


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

BribieG, I can't actually tell you that....I've had it since I was roughly 12 and the only thing still readable on the tag is my name written in permanent marker.....

And yes Katie, no external heat source, one power lead......


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

Time is ticking down.......

Just need to wait till after dinner so I can claim the entire kitchen as my brewcave.

More shopping today, the total bill is starting to get amusing

Urn $274 delviered
Jacket $5
Bag $16 worth of fabric and thread, still got a heap leftover too.
Mash paddle (bunnings paint stirrer) $7
Cube for NC $19 each
Hose and clamp $5
Digital probe thermo $30
4pk of La trappe to celebrate my first AG $16

Total sans actual ingredients = $372..........

But hell, it's so worth it.


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## chappo1970 (14/3/09)

Been waiting all day to see any signs of life... It's gotta be killin' ya all that brew porn just sitting around waiting for D hour? I know I couldn't wait.  

What time are ya starting? So I can keep an eye out for the thread...


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

Just mashed in..........

Todays shopping brought home the following.











Mash in





All wrapped up in it's blanky


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## JonnyAnchovy (14/3/09)

Good Luck! my day didn't go exactly as planned, but not all was lost!


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

60mins into the mash, just gave it a bit of a stir to help efficiency and do a temp check....

Mash in =67.7
60 mins = 63.4

I'm happy.

Now to wait another 30mins and then the fun begins.....Still haven't had a beer, I want to focus.


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## Mantis (14/3/09)

Pollux said:


> 60mins into the mash, just gave it a bit of a stir to help efficiency and do a temp check....
> 
> Mash in =67.7
> 60 mins = 63.4
> ...



Yes, you dont want to do anything silly with an urn full of boiling wort 
So far so good eh


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/3/09)

Pollux said:


> Well, my urn arrived this morning, less than 20hours since I ordered it.
> 
> As I said earlier this week, I am happy to post many pics......
> 
> ...


who made the BIAB bag?
GB


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

The missus.....

I used a guide I found on here somewhere..

It's basically a tube of swiss voile with a round base.


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## Bizier (14/3/09)

Da
da
da

da dada
da dada


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

Coming to the boil now, 28L obtained from the original 30 with a grain bill of 4.45kg..........

Chilling a sample now to get SG reading, and then it's boil time..

EDIT: Sample chilled to 25.3deg, close enough using hydro adjust in beersmith...



Efficiency into Boiler said:


> Volume into boiler = 28L
> OG into boiler = 1.041
> Efficiency into Boiler = 82.43%



Not bad for a first attempt.

Just looking at this storm though, if I get a blackout mid boil, I am going to be pissed!!!!


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## FarsideOfCrazy (14/3/09)

Well....???

Here we are at 10.15 and no update!!

Does this mean that you had a blackout or you've stuffed something up and are stressing?

Farside.


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

None of the above...

Just whirlpooled, giving it a bit to settle, then it's into the cube and clean up time.....

Will post a nice big update post with piccies once all the above is done.


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## Fantoman (14/3/09)

Hey Pollux,

Will be doing my first BIAB in the same Urn tomorrow and am curious what your evap rate was on your boil, was hoping to do a test boil today to see what the evap was like, but didn't get a chance, and am hoping to get started first thing in the morning... I think I have most of the bases covered, but currently have the evap set to Beersmith's default of 9%...

Any other tips would also be appreciated!


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

And I'm done............

Ended up with 20L in the cube, SG of 1.050 which is only 2 points off target.....near enough for me..

A few pics.




Happy happy boil





Draining





My 20L cube.....I feel I need to up the batch size to 23-25L to take up the airpace......That was post a decent squeeze.

Lessons learnt

1. Swiss voile makes an awesome bag for grain, sucks as a hop sock as it doesn't drain overly well or quickly.
2. You shouldn't accidentally dump part of your wet spent grain on your wife's foot, this will not please her.
3. 4.5kg of dry grain = alot more when wet.
4. Best way to clean a grain bag is to take it to the shower with you.......
5. The urn started to cut out after 80mins of boil, there was a bit of wort caramelised on the element, next time I'll cut it back to a 60min only. (90mins was only to allow a sample to cool enough to test pre-boil gravity, I have since discovered this isn't needed as it takes a while for the urn to bring 28L to the boil).
6. Music makes the time pass faster.


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

Fantoman, I had an evap of 4L over 90mins which is 10% in beersmith for me.


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## clean brewer (14/3/09)

Well done pollux, looks the goods, that BIAB seems fairly stremlined hey.. :beerbang: 



> My 20L cube.....I feel I need to up the batch size to 23-25L to take up the airpace......That was post a decent squeeze.



I have my brews worked out to finish at 22lts, I no-chill also and end up with a nice 19ltrs into the keg.. I find with no-chill, you have to get a tea towel and fold it up and put on your knee(so you dont scald the f--k out of it) to push all that liquid right up to the spout of the cube and then lid and really tighten it with a face washer in your hand to get it very tight, the wort always stays at the top, no air getting in here..  

you'll be amped to get another done hey??


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

I did the knee and towel trick....

Nearly stuck my knee through the other side....

It's okay, I can just adjust the next one, the first is always a learning experience...


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## Cocko (14/3/09)

Awesome work mate!! Not long and that little puppy will be sliding down ya gullet!!




Pollux said:


> 2. You shouldn't accidentally dump part of your wet spent grain on your wife's foot, this will not please her.




Don't worry, she'll get use to it!!


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## Cocko (14/3/09)

clean brewer said:


> I find with no-chill, you have to get a tea towel and fold it up and put on your knee(so you dont scald the f--k out of it) to push all that liquid right up to the spout of the cube and then lid and really tighten it with a face washer in your hand to get it very tight, the wort always stays at the top, no air getting in here..



Forget who posted it first but surely a great NC squeezer??

View attachment 25444


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

Tomorrow night is round two.........



> Recipe: Old Dart Ale
> Brewer:
> Asst Brewer:
> Style: Northern English Brown Ale
> ...




Bring it on......


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## clean brewer (14/3/09)

> Forget who posted it first but surely a great NC squeezer??



Ive got those aswell, great idea, ill go one on each side of the cube next time... :beerbang: 



> It's okay, I can just adjust the next one, the first is always a learning experience...



It takes a couple to work out your volumes and what goes into the keg, I hate seeing wort left in the fermenter after kegging and couldnt be bothered bottling 1 or 2, rather 19ltrs into the keg with nothing left over..


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

I bottle, so not a drop will be wasted....

Mildly annoyed at myself, forgot to taste the OG sample, it okay, I can always grab a shot glass worth when I pour it into the fermenter.


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## chappo1970 (15/3/09)

Pollux CONGRATS!

Looks like it went off well mate.


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## Pollux (15/3/09)

I've been given the all clear for an arvo brew today........

Got some food shopping and household duties to get out of the way first, then it's on again


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## JonnyAnchovy (15/3/09)

Top Stuff!

and great work with the photos as well! 

Any issues with your camp-mad insulation? no chance of it melting onto your urn?


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## Bribie G (15/3/09)

Textbook BIAB brew Pollux :icon_cheers: 

couple of hints: a pair of ten dollar leather (suede stuff) long - cuff gardening gloves are a good investment

I'm brewing a bit over gravity, so if I would normally use 4.5 K I would up that to 4.75 or - bugger it why not - 5.00, and nudge the 30g hop addition to 35g.... and so on.

So when I end up with that similar volume to yours in the cube I chuck in a couple of 1.5L jugs of boiling water to bring the level up a bit. I aim for 24L in the bottle which makes the exercise a bit more productive than just 20 or 21. 

Well done. You now have the bug. And when you get to brew five or six you'll be thinking 'how bloody easy is this !!'

Good job your'e young and fit for carrying jerries up and down stairs


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## smollocks (15/3/09)

Can you elaborate a bit on the problems you had with the hop sock? 

Would it be better to not use a sock, or do the advantages outweigh the slow draining time?


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## Pollux (15/3/09)

The hopsock simply needs refinement, I will make another soon with a less tightly woven fabric.....It was okay if I tilted it but the wort couldn't drain through the hop bed and the fabric at the same time.

Still better than having to clean them out of the urn though.


As for the camping mat, no issues but I took it off when it was still hot to clean the urn and it kept that shape until today when I restretched it onto the urn.

Still need to get some welding gloves, or HTFU maybe.....

And yes, the exercise of carrying the cubes up and down the 4 flights of stairs should burn off the beer belly I'll get from the beer....The grain is now in airtight buckets and tubs in the garage, so are the kitchen scales, hope the missus doesn't want them back anytime soon...


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## Pollux (15/3/09)

Round 2......

23ish litres to the cube...












I'm much happier with that one. All targets hit.


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## JonnyAnchovy (15/3/09)

Pollux - do you use a pickup tube on your crown?


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## Fantoman (15/3/09)

Did my first BIAB today and all went well... 

Was 2.5 litres short after I pulled the bag out, but was a few points higher in SG than Beersmith predicted, so topped up with a couple of litres of water... 

Ended up hitting my OG spot on to the cube which is good and have adjusted my equipment in Beersmith accordingly... Am very happy with the brew today so now I just have to wait for the cube to cool and hope it doesn't get infected (cube was Starsan'ed prior to NC'ing so it should be fine).

All up it look about 5 hours, but i'm sure with some refinement I can knock an hour off it... The good thing is the Urn is dead easy to clean, just hit it with the hose and a scrubbing brush and it is clean...

One thing I did learn is not to pull the bag up too high too quickly as I did and ended up with wort draining from the bag down the outside of the urn :angry: but hey, if that was the worst that happened, then it was pretty good B) 

Will be doing another next week (Tony's LCBA) and am looking forward to it! :super: 

Congratulations again Pollux you (and I) have done well! :beer:


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## Pollux (15/3/09)

I don't use a pickup tube, I simply take advantage of knowing that if I drain to the base of the tap's inlet I leave 2L behind.

Fantoman, great to hear you went well.


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## Pollux (30/3/09)

Well, it's only been in the bottle for a grand total of 4 days...But I couldn't help myself...


OMFG!!!! 


I hereby declare it to be the best beer I have ever brewed....

No to go and open a bottle of my last ever extract, this is going to be disappointing now....


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## Katherine (30/3/09)

ha ha ha sounds like us... try to keep some... Its good to see how a beer evolves...


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## Pollux (30/3/09)

I should be able to, been brewing like a madman to lift stock levels....


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## fcmcg (30/3/09)

Pollux said:


> I should be able to, been brewing like a madman to lift stock levels....


Congrats man...
Awsome effort to get 2 in 2 days
Must speak to SWMBO about needing more play money lol
I need to lift my stock levels too !
I've just started grain brewing and opened a stubby sat night that was only a week old and reckon it's the best beer i've ever had lol
Good luck for your future bews too !


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## raven19 (30/3/09)

Pollux said:


> Now to go and open a bottle of my last ever extract, this is going to be disappointing now....



But it must be drunk to make room for more AG beer.

I understand the above, have been doing the same of late, reducing KnB stocks to make room for more AG...


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## clean brewer (30/3/09)

raven19 said:


> But it must be drunk to make room for more AG beer.
> 
> I understand the above, have been doing the same of late, reducing KnB stocks to make room for more AG...



Ive had to do the same the last 2 days, drink some extract brews ive got in the fridge as Ive had no beer in kegs, just kegged my Belgian Wit and Batz Altbier today so that will be ready nicely tomoz night... Most of the leftover extract brews I had in bottles went to work to use for Batter and the ones I thought were not too bad, I kept, so its not the end of the world, but still not as good as my AG beers...

I seem to be having a problem getting a good rotation going with my 4 kegs, cant keep up, I really want 2 for drinking, 2 ready to be drunk and 2 fermenting or Cold conditioning ready to go into empty kegs.. I think ill just brew 4 nights this week to get right on top of it....


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## KHB (30/3/09)

Pollux said:


> Round 2......
> 
> 23ish litres to the cube...
> 
> ...




Bought 2 off these last week good to see they work well. Plan on fermenting one and putting the other one in the fridge for later when doing double batches!

KHB


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## Pollux (30/3/09)

fergthebrewer said:


> Congrats man...
> Awsome effort to get 2 in 2 days



I actually did 4 in 4 days. 2 are bottled, one is fermenting, the other should be pitched soon...But it can wait, I want to get my hopburst (brewed since then) into a fermenter...

This means I effectively have 5 batches done. 




KHB said:


> Bought 2 off these last week good to see they work well. Plan on fermenting one and putting the other one in the fridge for later when doing double batches!
> 
> KHB



They work best when you workout to 23L to the fermenter with a cooling loss of 5%......


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## Sunshine_Brewer (30/3/09)

clean brewer said:


> . I think ill just brew 4 nights this week to get right on top of it....



sounds like a plan CB


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## under (20/10/09)

Hows the crown urn going Pollux?

Any issues yet? Would you have preferred to go with the Birko?


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## Pollux (20/10/09)

Only issue I had was the crappy boil.

I have since performed the bypass of the boil dry switch mod and now it works great.


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## JestersDarts (21/9/10)

Pollux said:


> Only issue I had was the crappy boil.
> 
> I have since performed the bypass of the boil dry switch mod and now it works great.



Hey Pollux - how has your urn held up after the mod?


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## Pollux (21/9/10)

Still running strong.......


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## MarkBastard (21/9/10)

Yeah same here.


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## JestersDarts (21/9/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Yeah same here.



There is hope!

JD


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