# Best Kit Beers I Have Had, Had No Temp Control.



## PistolPatch (9/12/09)

Not many people would start a topic with the above title but it is absolutely true for me and is something that has totally bewildered me.

The best kit beers I have tasted (and some of them are in the top ten of home-brewed beers I have tasted) have all been fermented way too high. I can even name the brewers - InCider, Damien44, Katie & LloydieP are 3 (slash) 4 that always spring instantly to mind. There is another brewer who lives a few streets up and he brewed a lager that I think was perfect. The brewers I have mentioned here, all brewed lagers with the exception of one who brewed a delightful pale ale.

I can easily brew a great all-grain beer but I have never brewed a kit beer I could drink.

And, I followed all the rules.

I now know that my palate is hugely suseptible to any acidic flavours and nothing will change a palate. For example, I went to someone's place the other day and couldn't drink for the entire 10 hours I was there as I found all the beers to be cidery/astringent. No one else noticed it (including professional brewers) and so I thought I was going insane. Luckily, the brewer had entered some of the beers in a comp and the judges noticed the same thing I did but I believe none of them found it as overpowering or as offensive as I did - it is just a misfortune of my palate.

What has always worried me though, is kit brewers persisting with kit beers when perhaps their palate is as sensitive in the cidery/acidic department as mine is.

You can keep blaming yourself for the undrinkable beer you produce and spend weeks improving your set-up such as fermenting with temperature control but you may never brew a good beer if your palate is like mine.

As far as I can see there are three possible solutions if your palate is in the same category...

a) Buy a Kit and Ferment it at About 28 Degrees - This temp is the minimum temp that the above excellent kit beers I have tasted were fermented at. They were all fermented in garages or sheds in summer heat in QLD and Perth. Go figure??? (I tried this once and got a drinkable beer but it had the banana taste! Maybe I should have gone higher - lol!)

B) Abandon Tins and Buy Fresh Wort Kits (FWK)- These will cost you almost double the tin but I have never had an undrinkable FWK. I think anyone who loves beer should start at this level. It is the safest and easiest (manually) level to brew beer. You actually should get a brilliant beer* from a FWK. If you don't, then you really need to look at your fermentation and santisation. It is almost impossible to stuff these up if you know the basics.

c) Brew All-Grain Beer - Have you done B) above? If not, go there and then if it suits, go all-grain.

The whole point of this long post is that if you are getting fed up brewing kit beer, can't drink the result and are doing everything right, you are probably not the problem. Brewing a great kit beer is very dependent on your supplier.

Don't do what I did and give the hobby away. Twice I did that. Instead, jump to option B) above and as soon as possible after that, look at temperature control.

Don't look at temp control, time or anything else to fix a kit beer that you find pretty much undrinkable. This rarely happens if you are doing the basics right and never happens if you aren't.

I hope the above is food for thought for some.

Spot!
Patch

* When I last drove from Sydney to Perth I stopped half-way and drank a FWK beer brewed by Frogman. One of the nicest beers I have had in my life. I even took a photo to preserve the memory!


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## SunDrifter (10/12/09)

Good food for thought there mate. I'm a little worried i might be in a similar position, palate wise. I've found that the more I put into kit beers the more dissapointed I am when they taste like.... well kit beers.

I've need to mature the two batches i have bottled up for about another month before they'll be drinkable, i guess i'll make more informed decision then.


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## jbowers (10/12/09)

Or you could just use extract with steeps/mashes...


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## QldKev (10/12/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Not many people would start a topic with the above title but it is absolutely true for me and is something that has totally bewildered me.
> 
> The best kit beers I have tasted (and some of them are in the top ten of home-brewed beers I have tasted) have all been fermented way too high. I can even name the brewers - InCider, Damien44, Katie & LloydieP are 3 (slash) 4 that always spring instantly to mind. There is another brewer who lives a few streets up and he brewed a lager that I think was perfect. The brewers I have mentioned here, all brewed lagers with the exception of one who brewed a delightful pale ale.
> 
> ...




I think you've had a few too many beers Pat  

QldKev


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## staggalee (10/12/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Not many people would start a topic with the above title but it is absolutely true for me and is something that has totally bewildered me.
> 
> The best kit beers I have tasted (and some of them are in the top ten of home-brewed beers I have tasted) have all been fermented way too high.
> 
> a) Buy a Kit and Ferment it at About 28 Degrees - This temp is the minimum temp that the above excellent kit beers I have tasted were fermented at. They were all fermented in garages or sheds in summer heat in QLD and Perth. Go figure???!



How odd.

stagga.


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## Bribie G (10/12/09)

I don't think it's just the kit. I was running out of beer and recently knocked up an all extract with the finest of Coopers liquid malt extract, some carapils and US-05, and NZ hops. I fermented at 19, lagered for two weeks and the bloody thing still tastes like the bootleg that Dad used to crank out in the 1950s before there were even LHBS


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## booyablack (10/12/09)

This thread is giving me some relief since I'm fearing for my second batch of home brew that I plan to bottle this weekend.

I started the brew 3 weeks ago on a day that got up to 42degC! I couldn't cool my wort down less than 32degC and the Cooper's kit said that's it's better to pitch the yeast hot than wait for it to cool since any bacteria in the brew will have a head-start on the yeast otherwise.

It's a Cooper's Pale Ale copy. I've at least regained some confidence that it might be OK from reading this thread!

Cheers PistolPatch.



Booyablack


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## theMISSIONARY (10/12/09)

PistolPatch said:


> a) Buy a Kit and Ferment it at About 28 Degrees - This temp is the minimum temp that the above excellent kit beers I have tasted were fermented at. They were all fermented in garages or sheds in summer heat in QLD and Perth. Go figure??? (I tried this once and got a drinkable beer but it had the banana taste! Maybe I should have gone higher - lol!)




a Friend of mine Brews at high temperatures commonly  26deg there about's......and his lagers Ales Stouts all taste just fine B) got me stuffed 

they seem slightly bitter compared to mine but after one or two.....well it doesn't seem to matter any more :lol: 

I might have to try it :blink:


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## Nick JD (10/12/09)

I've found some people actually _like_ fusels. That warming sensation. 

I'd love to have a multiple temperature control system to ferment the same brew, split into say 5 smaller batches with the same yeast (say US05) at 18, 20, 24, 27 and 30 ... and see how many people could line them up in order of fermentation temperature.


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## Andrew Coleman (10/12/09)

Nick JD said:


> I've found some people actually _like_ fusels. That warming sensation.
> 
> I'd love to have a multiple temperature control system to ferment the same brew, split into say 5 smaller batches with the same yeast (say US05) at 18, 20, 24, 27 and 30 ... and see how many people could line them up in order of fermentation temperature.



Good thought, i always sucked at science in school, but the science behind beer always interests me imensely, and about the original topic i would have to agree that kits are often a tad tempremental, best to find best quality lme and do partial reali, how hard is it to add extra hops and some grain if you want.


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## boingk (10/12/09)

May well be something to do with a function of fermentation time, or the original condition of the yeast.

I've found my beers do best at around 18'C if I'm using a stock kit yeast, or 16-17'C if I'm using US-05. My father uses the kit yeasts and makes up strictly to directions (eg 'add BE2' or 'add 1.5kg light liquid malt'), then ferments at 21-22'C. The result? Brilliant kit beer thats fairly hard to fault.

Another thing I've found is that its crucial to get a fresh kit. Anything over 12 months old is average, and anything out of date will not make anything very nice at all. I prefer to get them under 3 months old if I can, up to six months otherwise.

Cheers - boingk


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## MitchDudarko (10/12/09)

I never thought of blaming my palate for just about every one of my kit beers turning out cidery/acidic. I was going to give homebrewing away until I tasted MintSauce's first AG batch. My old man ferments his coopers kits down in the shed, and with weather easily getting over 40C here in Kalgoorlie, I cant believe how nice his brews turn out. And he definately has a KISS approach. 1 can, 1kg of sugar, some water and yeast.


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## nathanR (10/12/09)

What is the shelf life on a kit ? 



> Another thing I've found is that its crucial to get a fresh kit


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## theMISSIONARY (10/12/09)

MitchDudarko said:


> I never thought of blaming my palate for just about every one of my kit beers turning out cidery/acidic. I was going to give homebrewing away until I tasted MintSauce's first AG batch. My old man ferments his coopers kits down in the shed, and with weather easily getting over 40C here in Kalgoorlie, I cant believe how nice his brews turn out. And he definately has a KISS approach. 1 can, 1kg of sugar, some water and yeast.



Hahaha i did a west brew Munich lager there(Boulder) and it got to about 26deg.......i Farkin hated it but one of my other half's friends loved it took the lot and drank it  

Funny people out there in Kal


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## simon.sillitoe (10/12/09)

Drewcifer said:


> i always sucked at science in school, *but the science behind beer always interests me imensely*


+1

I was certainly intrigued when I first learned that in general, when it comes to fermentation temperature, lower = better.

Last year when I got into home brew, temperature control was the last thing on my mind. In the 40 degree heights of summer we had kits that were going along great -- and tasted fine to my (perhaps?) untrained palate.

Fast forward to when I joined AHB and you can imagine my surprise when suddenly I was being inundated with information that suggested low 20s as a *maximum*!

In year 11 Chemistry when we were learning fermentation, we fermented a glucose solution at 37 degrees. The mantra: Glucose -> Ethanol + Carbon Dioxide in the presence of yeast. There wasn't a single suggestion that anything else was produced, just that the reaction, like most reactions, proceeded more quickly at higher temperatures.

Now that I know other chemicals are in fact produced, I'm interested in _why_ different amounts at different temperatures, not just that "they are". Unfortunately that information is proving much more difficult to source.


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## MitchDudarko (10/12/09)

theMISSIONARY said:


> Funny people out there in Kal




Absolutely. 

Mitch


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## boingk (10/12/09)

> What is the shelf life on a kit?



Kits have a use-by date stamped on the bottom of the tin, in most cases 2 years after canning From this you can infer with reasonable certainty how old the kit is. Hell, the Coopers 'Real Ale' tin I have next to the PC says it was made at 1:50pm on 25/09/09.

As per above, I'd peg a more stringent limit of 12 months with 6 months or under being most preferable. I usually buy from the LHBS or the supermarket, and often my final decision on kits is made by the use-by date. The one time I didn't check I got an out of date Sparkling Ale from the LHBS - to their credit they exchanged it for a 'fresh' one no questions asked.

Cheers - boingk


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## goomboogo (10/12/09)

booyablack said:


> This thread is giving me some relief since I'm fearing for my second batch of home brew that I plan to bottle this weekend.
> 
> I started the brew 3 weeks ago on a day that got up to 42degC! I couldn't cool my wort down less than 32degC and the Cooper's kit said that's it's better to pitch the yeast hot than wait for it to cool since any bacteria in the brew will have a head-start on the yeast otherwise.
> 
> ...



I don't want to sound pessimistic but don't get your hopes up too much. PP is well known for regurgitating this idea every now and again. Mysteriously, it's often after 10pm. Blanket statements regarding fermentation temperatures without any mention of the particular yeast strains may not be the best advice for brewers, new or otherwise.


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## dpadden (10/12/09)

Yeah I think this is a tad dangerous for some of the new brewers around to take on board....


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## boingk (10/12/09)

Well said, goomboogo. Which is especially why I countered the generalisations with this in my first post:



> I've found my beers do best at around 18'C if I'm using a stock kit yeast, or 16-17'C if I'm using US-05. My father uses the kit yeasts and makes up strictly to directions (eg 'add BE2' or 'add 1.5kg light liquid malt'), then ferments at 21-22'C. The result? Brilliant kit beer thats fairly hard to fault.


For the record, beers that I've fermented over 20'C deteriorate exponentially as the fermentation temperature rises. One fermented at 21 (with US-05/S-04) may not be seriously flawed, but once its up to 24'C I've found an increase in perceived bitterness and an unwillingness to hold a decent head - at the very, very least. This diminishes once over 4 weeks old but is still very much perceptible, along with any other additional flaws that may be present.

Personally I'd be willing to try one of these high-fermented beers, but would be quite reluctant to try this method myself.

- boingk


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## PistolPatch (10/12/09)

goomboogo said:


> Blanket statements regarding fermentation temperatures without any mention of the particular yeast strains may not be the best advice for brewers, new or otherwise.


Very true. I should have mentioned in the first post that all the beers I mentioned were done with the kit yeast.

Doing the high temps with the better yeasts such as US56 would be a huge mistake.

Sorry for that omission but yes, I had just got back from a 7 hour lunch 

Cheers,
Pat


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## loikar (10/12/09)

If your beer tastes like shit, you're not doing it right......The End


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## boingk (10/12/09)

Perhaps the oft-used lager/ale hybrid kit yeasts are somehow more tolerant of the higher temperatures, Patch?


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## PistolPatch (11/12/09)

boingk said:


> Perhaps the oft-used lager/ale hybrid kit yeasts are somehow more tolerant of the higher temperatures, Patch?


I certainly think there is something in that and is one thing I'd love to see discussed more boingk. I think people are a bit scared to say that they brewed a great beer at a higher temperature.

I'm like you, I'm not prepared to do the experiments but it would be nice to see them being done with the kit yeasts to see if there is anything to this.

Cheers to you,
Pat


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## booyablack (11/12/09)

Well the brew that I'm bottling tomorrow was used using the kit yeast and the Coopers instructions with it said that they include yeast that is more tolerant of Aussie conditions and will survive up to 40degC! 

Somehow I don't think it's recommended to try anywhere near that high. But anyway, I DID use the kit yeast so in a few weeks when I crack the first one of the batch I'll get back to this thread and let you know what it turned out like.

The other thing I forgot to mention was that initially when I pitched the yeast and began fermentation it was hot but that night it cooled to around 24degC and has been between 22-24 ever since so I don't know how this will affect the brew. I will say this though, the primary fermentation was very fast and furious!


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## RobH (11/12/09)

BeerFingers said:


> If your beer tastes like shit, you're not doing it right......The End




... or maybe you just need to stop using the water from the toilet! :lol:


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## Oatlands Brewer (11/12/09)

......LOL.....   

Thanks RobH i needed a good cackell


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## King Brown (11/12/09)

It could be because Cooper's yeast is known for its heat tolerance (even mentioned in Palmer's book, Link: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-4-1.html) I've even read somewhere that the coopers brewery doesn't use temperature control, could be BS but you never know. Everytime I've brewed with a "pedigree" strain of yeast at temps any higher than 23C the result has been akin to nail polish remover, impossible to drink more than one bottle in a session and even one usually results in a headache. But it could be I'm sensitive to fusels.


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## Nick JD (11/12/09)

SimonSS said:


> Now that I know other chemicals are in fact produced, I'm interested in _why_ different amounts at different temperatures, not just that "they are". Unfortunately that information is proving much more difficult to source.



Fusels are alcohols with more than two carbons (ie. ethanol has two). 

Very basically, the yeast needs nitrogenous compounds to make fusel alcohols. Usually it gets this from amino acids produced by the mash or other dead yeasts or it can make it itself if stressed.

If the yeast gets its nitrogen compounds from amino acid it makes fusels. If it has a readily available source of nitrogen (like ammonium salts) it will use this and not make fusels. 

The moral of the story - piss in your home brew. Ferment as high as you like. 

Nah - seriously, some of these hot ferment brews that come out nice might just be because they happen accidentally to have another source of N ... or very low amino acids.


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## stufoster (11/12/09)

The best beer I've ever made was an extract ale with Halertau hops and S-04 yeast. I didn't check the weather report when I decided to put on a brew, and we had a week or two of 40+ degrees. I kept the fermenter in the bath and tried valiantly to keep the temp down, but it probably averaged high 20's. Turned out to be the best beer I've made. Going to try it again this summer.


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## Brewman_ (11/12/09)

Firstly I must say, I have made good kit beer without temp control and have competition score sheets to verify it. Note that these beers were made in Aug - Sep in moderate to cool weather. The fermenter was at around 21 Deg.C and was at the mercy of the room temp. I have never made a good kit beer above 25Deg in my opinion, but I have drank them, since they were still OK - like they were not off.

However without temp control, I found that results were not predicatble and sometimes they were good and other times they were just OK.

With Temp control I started to use a wider variety of yeasts. I do agree that the kit yeasts are more forgiving for high temps - I let some wyeast brews get a bit warm and they were very bad. But if I get the temp right with the right yeast then what I get is better beer and more predicatble results all year round.

Temp Control for the puprose of fermentation is only one aspect of temp control I use. I keg, and also find say that for an ale if I ferment at 18 Deg.C until complete and then chill to seving temp and then add some Isinglass / finings for a day or so, I can drop alot of yeast / haze forming compounds. This creates a clearer beer and in my opion a cleaner tasting beer, and a little less "Kit" character. Then there are lager processes ect.

I find this works well for me.

Fear_n_Loath


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## Nick JD (12/12/09)

One of the fusels smells like roses. One of them smells like arse.


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