# Keg King Elements



## QldKev

I know the keg king elements had lots of issues originally. I'm only worried about the newer type with the length of cable from the base before you plug in the cord. 

I purchased two, one died due to water leaking into it on it's first use. Took a while but I did get a replacement sent out. The replacement (along with the other good one) has only been used in my HLT. The replacement one after just 3 brews is rusting! The other element shows no signs of rust, as you would expect from a s/s element. To me it looks like someone has hit it with a buffer or emery that has been used on mild steel. I sent Craftbrewer an email to see if this is covered under warranty on the 5 April, but no response yet.









Are other people still having issues or have I just been unlucky?


QldKev


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## Fourstar

not that i have owned one but it sounds like you're right with the whole mild steel corrosion 

you could always attempt to passivate it again by cleaning and scrubbing the rust off with a scotch brite in a sodium perc solution, rinsed and thoroughly dried.


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## flavo

I have two in my BIAB kettle - used for 25+ batches and they both look like they did they day I got them. I have replaced one as the wires and the white cover snapped off - probably due to the way I tied the cables of the two elements together when in storage.

I got them in August last year.


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## MaltyHops

I think I may have the same one/type by your description (got mine from
BeerBelly) in a combined kettle/hlt - no issues after only 4 brews.

Passivating definitely the go (may have to repeat until any mild steel is all
gone) as the rust will create sites at which rust attack can increase (from
what I remember from reading).

I think where these elements are used in wort, the acidic wort environment
helps to prevent rust. Had some rust spots around some weld spots in the
kettle/hlt and the advice was to clean with green scotch brite to re-passivate.
Then in a another rust attack, I didn't get rid of the rust and did a brew after
which the rust spot went away.


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## TidalPete

Just got back from CraftBrewer an hour ago with a new element after the original only survived a dry run of the upgraded brewery but karked it 36 hours later on the next brewday.
I've been told that the problem is supposed to have been fixed by Keg King but will wait & see what happens next brewday. Love my (stand-by) immersion element! :super: 
Not looking forward to any rust problems if the new element keeps on working.
Other responses to the problem are in the copy & pasted link below. Forum "Insert Link" button is not working for me ATM. 
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=60089&hl= 

TP


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## Parks

TidalPete said:


> Just got back from CraftBrewer an hour ago with a new element after the original only survived a *dry run* of the upgraded brewery ...



You know you're supposed to use this in water, right TP?

:lol:


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## QldKev

Parks said:


> You know you're supposed to use this in water, right TP?
> 
> :lol:




Sad thing is, this is what Kee (the Keg King wholesaler) has claimed I have done and has stated this is not really a warranty issue! 

As a sheet metal worker by trade (although no longer working in the trade) I think he is joking! As I mentioned earlier you can see where the stainless has been worked using a manufacturing area / products that are not suitable for tooling a stainless product. I'm taking a guess that maybe this element got missed and didn't get hit with the picking paste.

I'm pretty pissed of with his response!

I will post any more updates if I get any...

QldKev - Pissed of


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## TidalPete

Parks said:


> You know you're supposed to use this in water, right TP?
> 
> :lol:



Oh Nooooooo! I knew I forgot something?  :beer: 

TP


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## QldKev

An update.

Although there is no sign of any heat discolouration evident, and I know since I have had the unit it has never been turned on out of water, Kee is claiming it is a user related overheating issue. I have expressed my opinion (I am a trade qualified person in the area) that there is direct evidence of where the product has become contaminated during manufacturing process, and has not been pickled to remove this prior to sale, hence the pattern of the corrosion following around the shaft. Looks like Kee from Keg King is not prepared to stand behind his product in this case, so much for the 3 year warranty. I will need to purchase pickling paste in the morning at my own expense to prevent any further corrosion damaging the unit even further. Then all I can hope is that the join where it goes inside the housing to screw to the vessel wont corrode from inside out. 

Please be aware of this if you are looking at purchasing a heating element, I know I'll be looking for alternative elements to heat my kettle.


QldKev


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## bradsbrew

Does the rust on the element in the HLT lead to health issues due to contaminating the water and if so what? Or is it the fact that it can lead to the unit failing and frying the user?

Genuine questions. My stick element has rust on it due to some dimwit having a few beers during the brew and forgetting to turn the element off, only to find it glowing red 15minutes later. Jeez I wont be doing that 3 times :huh: . Still works.

Cheers


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## QldKev

You would need to consume a lot of rust for it to be dangerous. I don't know the internal wiring of the element and how/if the earth is hooked up so it may be an issue for safety. I'm more concerned that I purchased a s/s element to look neat and give many years of service, to find it rusting after a few uses. How long before it fails due to the rust corroding through the body allowing it to ingest water, I don't know. 

I take it your one was not running from a pid?

QldKev


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## Kingbrownbrewing

I must admit the cord going to the outlet gets ridiculously hot and warps in all directions in my 2, and there is no pressure on either....

But both still work...

No rust either.


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## bradsbrew

QldKev said:


> You would need to consume a lot of rust for it to be dangerous. I don't know the internal wiring of the element and how/if the earth is hooked up so it may be an issue for safety. I'm more concerned that I purchased a s/s element to look neat and give many years of service, to find it rusting after a few uses. How long before it fails due to the rust corroding through the body allowing it to ingest water, I don't know.
> 
> I take it your one was not running from a pid?
> 
> QldKev


Your right Kev, I would be spewing too. I'd be even more pissed off that the manufacturer just ignores it and blames user fault when its not. I know that I caused the damage to mine and I'm suprised it still works after a few years.
No pid on the hlt but I will be adding one when I get the control panel on the rig.

Cheers


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## QldKev

I wonder how good these things are ebay 2000w element

They would have a lower heat density as a bonus.

Just need a basic box to house the connection and pick up the earth.


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## Wolfy

QldKev said:


> I wonder how good these things are ebay 2000w element


I don't trust my DIY electrical skills enough to try one of those.


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## QldKev

bradsbrew said:


> Your right Kev, I would be spewing too. I'd be even more pissed off that the manufacturer just ignores it and blames user fault when its not. I know that I caused the damage to mine and I'm suprised it still works after a few years.
> No pid on the hlt but I will be adding one when I get the control panel on the rig.
> 
> Cheers




This one has only done a few brews, and being used in the HLT it's never even taken water past 78c. If I had allowed it to get switched on out of water I would be happy to accept it was my issue, but I know for a fact I have not. The last 3 emails from Kee have basically stated the same thing, just worded differently so I give up. I realize he must be upset over these elements, as so many of them have failed and must be cutting into any profit. I just hope the ones melting the wires at the base don't kill someone, I'm not saying they will, but to me it just seems likely that it could happen but I'm not an electrician. Next time for the HLT I think I'll just use the $8 kettle elements, they last in kettles for many years.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

QldKev said:


> I wonder how good these things are ebay 2000w element
> 
> They would have a lower heat density as a bonus.
> 
> Just need a basic box to house the connection and pick up the earth.


I am going to give one whirl, if you dont hear from me I forgot to add an Earth wire.
Seriously dont use it until you add an earth. Should be here in a month  
Cant be any worse than the one you got.

Nev


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## jyo

bradsbrew said:


> Genuine questions. My stick element has rust on it due to some dimwit having a few beers during the brew and forgetting to turn the element off, only to find it glowing red 15minutes later. Jeez I wont be doing that 3 times :huh: . Still works.
> 
> Cheers



You idiot, Brad :lol: Hypothetically, if someone else did this exact same thing and the element turned a burnt-brown colour, could this have any adverse effects to health? h34r: (Tripped the power to the power point circuit in the house too, I dunno how the hell it still works to be honest. It was glowing red too!)

My last keg king element lasted less than 12 months, but I didn't have a receipt for proof of purchase, so no good. This was due to the insulation on the wires melting. 

Cheers.

Hope you get a refund, Kev.


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## booargy

I have been using these elements for about 3 years in all my vessels. They have served me well but they are rubbish. 



QldKev said:


> I wonder how good these things are ebay 2000w element
> 
> They would have a lower heat density as a bonus.
> 
> Just need a basic box to house the connection and pick up the earth.



Good find kev. I have just ordered their 3kw version. If they look all right I will buy some spares.


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## IainMcLean

I'm a little worried now.
I just bought two of these and have got one ready to go this weekend.
I'm aiming to replace my immersion element with them and use them in conjunction with an arduino controller I'm building....
Off to the shed now to look for the reciept - luck trash night is tonight and I have a feeling I put it in the trash at the weekend..... oops.


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## QldKev

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I am going to give one whirl, if you dont hear from me I forgot to add an Earth wire.
> Seriously dont use it until you add an earth. Should be here in a month
> Cant be any worse than the one you got.
> 
> Nev




I've ordered one too. Why do new toys always take so long to get here


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## QldKev

jyo said:


> You idiot, Brad :lol: Hypothetically, if someone else did this exact same thing and the element turned a burnt-brown colour, could this have any adverse effects to health? h34r: (Tripped the power to the power point circuit in the house too, I dunno how the hell it still works to be honest. It was glowing red too!)
> 
> My last keg king element lasted less than 12 months, but I didn't have a receipt for proof of purchase, so no good. This was due to the insulation on the wires melting.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Hope you get a refund, Kev.




You would think with the amount of elements that have burnt wires they would be due for a full recall of that version. Knowing how many have failed I wonder what the liability would be?


Refund :lol: all I've got is "time to spend more money" to fix it up, and hope something else on it doesn't go wrong with it.


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## QldKev

booargy said:


> I have been using these elements for about 3 years in all my vessels. They have served me well but they are rubbish.
> 
> 
> 
> Good find kev. I have just ordered their 3kw version. If they look all right I will buy some spares.




Funny thing is for ages all I could find was the 3kw version. I'm limited to 10amp sockets, so had to wait for a 2kw one. I spent more time looking tonight :lol:


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## Maheel

i have a CB one, it's a replacement for a failed unit that would have done 50hrs of boiling i reckon but I like others think the quality is just not good enough on the build of these.

today i sent a "quote" to TEE to see if they have anything that could replace it even if it needs to be "wired" and not plug and play like the 2200w stick 

personally i would be happy to spend up to or more than $100 on one that is going to last the distance and give a few good years of use but still be easy to install .


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## Maheel

got a reply back from TEE sadly for a plug and play from them would be pushing +- $400 for a single unit

i suppose the cheapest next option is to weld in sockets and just screw in off the shelf heating units and have them wired up properly


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## QldKev

Maheel said:


> got a reply back from TEE sadly for a plug and play from them would be pushing +- $400 for a single unit
> 
> i suppose the cheapest next option is to weld in sockets and just screw in off the shelf heating units and have them wired up properly




What about something like this

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOT-WATER-ELEME...305be268f"
or 
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HOT-WATER-ELEMENT-2...=item2305be2517


You could either get a 1" socket welded into place, 
OR
drill a hole in the kettle and a bolt it in place with a die cast box, seal and nut.





An electrician would need to hook up the electrical side, the same electrician that would wire up the stc-1000/other controller that will control it.

edit: I had a 1" nut in the diagram, looks like we need a 32mm nut, but basically "a nut to suit"




QldKev


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## Wolfy

QldKev said:


> What about something like this
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOT-WATER-ELEME...305be268f"
> or
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HOT-WATER-ELEMENT-2...=item2305be2517


Is "Nickle Copper Plated" going to be as robust or even something you want in your boiling wort, when compared to SS?


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## Kingbrownbrewing

It really is such a shame that the keg king elements arent better designed, but I guess for that price you get what you pay for.

I would happily pay $50 for one of the same design that would last indefinitely.

I really hope mine don't shit themselves as everyone elses have...

At least I know that Ross will honour his warranty even if keg king dont.


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## pk.sax

King Brown Brewing said:


> It really is such a shame that the keg king elements arent better designed, but I guess for that price you get what you pay for.
> 
> I would happily pay $50 for one of the same design that would last indefinitely.
> 
> I really hope mine don't shit themselves as everyone elses have...
> 
> At least I know that Ross will honour his warranty even if keg king dont.


+1
Got mine today, ordered for the hlt. It has a few manufacturing marks near the base. Will just have to suck and see.


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## bignath

QldKev said:


> Next time for the HLT I think I'll just use the $8 kettle elements, they last in kettles for many years.



Yep. I've got two homemaker branded kettle (kmart) kettle elements in my HLT. 
Awesome elements, have lasted for years with no issues at all.


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## Parks

QldKev said:


> Next time for the HLT I think I'll just use the $8 kettle elements, they last in kettles for many years.


A kettle doesn't get nearly the workout as boiling 40+ litres of water each time. It gets to boiling and stops.

I have just bought one myself but I seriously wouldn't expect it to last that long. Hope to be proven wrong, and I would be happy enough to buy a new one each year if they stay the same price and physical size.


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## QldKev

Wolfy said:


> Is "Nickle Copper Plated" going to be as robust or even something you want in your boiling wort, when compared to SS?



Good point. Probably best to stay with s/s. Fingers crossed when that $14 element gets here it works out good.




King Brown Brewing said:


> It really is such a shame that the keg king elements arent better designed, but I guess for that price you get what you pay for.
> 
> I would happily pay $50 for one of the same design that would last indefinitely.
> 
> I really hope mine don't shit themselves as everyone elses have...
> 
> At least I know that Ross will honour his warranty even if keg king dont.



Mine was purchased form Ross, but since Keg King sent out the last replacement due to me being several hundred km's from Craftbrewer, it seems to have become Keg Kings issue?




Big Nath said:


> Yep. I've got two homemaker branded kettle (kmart) kettle elements in my HLT.
> Awesome elements, have lasted for years with no issues at all.




I also know a brewer up here who has had a kettle element in his HLT for many years. 




Parks said:


> A kettle doesn't get nearly the workout as boiling 40+ litres of water each time. It gets to boiling and stops.
> 
> I have just bought one myself but I seriously wouldn't expect it to last that long. Hope to be proven wrong, and I would be happy enough to buy a new one each year if they stay the same price and physical size.




Ref above. They seem ok if used for fresh water in the HLT, but not so happy in the wort. 

QldKev


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## Kingbrownbrewing

I find it quite surising that Keg King hasn't weighed in on this post.

This forum is easily the biggest group of their customer in one place, yet still nothing has been said.

Many other retailers are very quick to jump on any problems and rectify them to divert any negative publicity.

This is putting them in a very negative light, and may put people off their other good products.

Just a thought.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

King Brown Brewing said:


> I find it quite surising that Keg King hasn't weighed in on this post.
> 
> This forum is easily the biggest group of their customer in one place, yet still nothing has been said.
> 
> Many other retailers are very quick to jump on any problems and rectify them to divert any negative publicity.
> 
> This is putting them in a very negative light, and may put people off their other good products.
> 
> Just a thought.


In my opinion I would replace the faulty product and remove product from sale.
But thats me not them.
Nev


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## kelbygreen

yeah think I might use kettle elements when I go electric lol


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## Parks

King Brown Brewing said:


> I find it quite surising that Keg King hasn't weighed in on this post.
> 
> This forum is easily the biggest group of their customer in one place, yet still nothing has been said.
> 
> Many other retailers are very quick to jump on any problems and rectify them to divert any negative publicity.
> 
> This is putting them in a very negative light, and may put people off their other good products.
> 
> Just a thought.


He hasn't posted in years although looking at his profile he stalks the forum a bit last seen March 19.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...p?showuser=6589


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## Kingbrownbrewing

Gryphon Brewing said:


> In my opinion I would replace the faulty product and remove product from sale.
> But thats me not them.
> Nev



I didnt want to name names on the retailers who are smart enough to watch these forums, but I can refer to exhibit A.....

If there was a reliable element with an exact build to the keg king one, it would be worth $50-$60 easily.


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## manticle

I have no comment on the product but a recent thread where a certain retailer had an issue (with a staff member rather than a product but still relevant) was emailed and immediately took steps to rectify the situation.

Just because we waste loads of time on this forum, doesn't mean retailers have the time nor the inclination. If it concerns someone because they feel the retailer is good and are getting unnecessarily bad mouthed, let them know and see how they deal with it then.

The response to Kev's complaint seems pretty average to me - most times I've had an issue with one of the many retailers I use (not just brewing) they are quick to respond and to rectify so those who aren't, I tend to view with suspicion.

However an email from someone else, with a link to this thread can save a lot of speculation.


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## QldKev

manticle said:


> I have no comment on the product but a recent thread where a certain retailer had an issue (with a staff member rather than a product but still relevant) was emailed and immediately took steps to rectify the situation.
> 
> Just because we waste loads of time on this forum, doesn't mean retailers have the time nor the inclination. If it concerns someone because they feel the retailer is good and are getting unnecessarily bad mouthed, let them know and see how they deal with it then.
> 
> The response to Kev's complaint seems pretty average to me - most times I've had an issue with one of the many retailers I use (not just brewing) they are quick to respond and to rectify so those who aren't, I tend to view with suspicion.
> 
> However an email from someone else, with a link to this thread can save a lot of speculation.



In my last email to Kee I have directly informed him of this thread myself, so he has been given the opportunity to respond. 



QldKev


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## manticle

Then you've done all you can do. Best way to deal with it - you contacted him, got an unsatisfactory response, mentioned it publicly then alerted the relevant party to the subsequent discussion.

Other people complaining about bad service should endeavour to do the same. I think you've dealt with it well.


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## QldKev

I wonder how many version of this element are out there. The first version had the plug in the base itself, the second had a longer cord. The replacement one I got in Feb (the one discussed in this thread) has a different length cord again, and the keg king logo is stamped in a different font and running in the opposite direction. 

O'well, I've now sat down and cleaned mine up last night, and handed over my hard earned cash and now it is pickled. A few pits into the s/s but that is to be expected. Fingers crossed from here on out, I think I need too.

PS. if you think in the first pic the element looks crooked to it's base, it is...


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## kelbygreen

yeah, I think he would want to know about the issues more then just saying its your fault! It could be bad luck or a whole lot of other things but seems a few problems are arising with the product and by the sounds of it its not lasting the time people would expect from such a product. 

I am not sure of a price but I am sure people will pay a little extra on a product that will last longer and have less or at best no faults. I hope this can be sorted as by the sounds of it and by people on the forum he might as well stop making them if they keep being returned. Plus this thread sure would put a dent in the sales, as I am rethinking my options for the HERMS I want to build and a simple cheap kettle element seems best ATM as only looking at that for long life which seems it does not have.


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## JaseH

I have a keg king element in my HLT, after 4 brews its still like new. I've always had good dealings with Kee and Keg King, its unfortunate that your experience has not been great.

As far as alternatives, I purchased an element from these guys for my kettle:

http://www.thermalproducts.com.au/hotwater...erheader.html#3

I use part number H03569 which is 3600W, but H03566 & H03565 are 2400W and 2000W. It was about $55. They use a 1" screw in boss. I purchased a stainless steel 1" lock nut from Geordi for a few bucks and works a treat.

You do need to do some handy work to box in the back and connect a lead, but its not overly difficult. Here is mine using an alloy jaycar box, I used to have a power lead wired onto the element but it was a PITA to move and clean the kettle with a lead permanently hanging off it so I just changed it to a male IEC socket.


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## keifer33

Nice setup Frothie and thanks for the link to the Elements. Have dropped them an enquiry as the price definitely suits more than chewing through a couple of keg king sticks at a time.


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## Wimmig

Seems to be some ongoing issues with elements. What exactly is the problem, tooling? How many actual versions of the design are there?


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## Maheel

Wimmig said:


> What exactly is the problem, tooling?



i would say "not fit for purpose" 

but i wish they were... 

i am liking that screw in and 1" ss nut Frothie. top work and thanks


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Frothie said:


> I have a keg king element in my HLT, after 4 brews its still like new. I've always had good dealings with Kee and Keg King, its unfortunate that your experience has not been great.
> 
> As far as alternatives, I purchased an element from these guys for my kettle:
> 
> http://www.thermalproducts.com.au/hotwater...erheader.html#3
> 
> I use part number H03569 which is 3600W, but H03566 & H03565 are 2400W and 2000W. It was about $55. They use a 1" screw in boss. I purchased a stainless steel 1" lock nut from Geordi for a few bucks and works a treat.
> 
> You do need to do some handy work to box in the back and connect a lead, but its not overly difficult. Here is mine using an alloy jaycar box, I used to have a power lead wired onto the element but it was a PITA to move and clean the kettle with a lead permanently hanging off it so I just changed it to a male IEC socket.


Nice to see that Green/Earth wire, dont see to many rigged right.
Nev


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## JaseH

Wimmig said:


> Seems to be some ongoing issues with elements. What exactly is the problem, tooling? How many actual versions of the design are there?



The main issues I've seen previously discussed regarding the KK elements are the durability of the wiring attached to the element. QldKev's issue appears to be a new one AFAIK, looks to be a quality control issue. I'm suprised Kee hasnt handled it better. I purchased one recently and have had no problems with it.

The Thermal Products element I purchased appears to be a solid quality component and I'm very happy with it, its not quite as 'plug and play' as the KK element. But I went with it because I needed a higher wattage for the kettle. If I required another element around 2000W again(when I go RIMS  ) I may go for another KK element.


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## pk.sax

Just throwing it out there, is this problem localised to buyers getting these from resellers or to ones purchased from keg king itself - physical store?

That said, I bought a couple of SS fb from KK recently and even in the shop itself, they had spots of rust on them. Flap wheel took care of it and the rust hasn't returned whatsoever. It just might be that walk in customers pick and choose the better handled sticks... Also, Kevin's lost 2 in a row so the shop response sounds like they are suspicious and defensive about it. Their customer service in the store was pretty awesome. Hope they decide to give the thread some credence and check up on the quality control of these. After all, not every buyer complains, most DIYers just fix it (like I did).


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## kelbygreen

well if they are rusting in the store then why cant they admit to it when kev asked about it??? he has taken it into his own hands! But if I bought a new item that is stainless steel I would be pissed after heating water once or twice that its rusted, Its SS it shouldnt rust and if they cared about there product you shouldnt have to fix it yourself. 

I am a carpenter and if I got a bit of timber that was bent I would send it back sure I can fix it but it will fail what the code says can be done. I can cut and wedge it like the old tradies used to do but its not legal to do now and it is not safe. I feel sorry for bunnings as I went threw there whole rack of like 30 lengths of timber and picked 2 bits out, they where the only straight sticks in the whole place. I dont know why people go there and if there stuff got delivered on my site I would tell them to pick it up and take it back. 

off topic I know but I want to do things right at home or at work things like this dont fly. People want quality but most dont want to pay for it. I get funny looks when I go threw timber in the yard but **** them I want my work to be good. If I get stuff delivered for a reno I go threw the timbers all the straight bits go in the hall ways and the bathroom the rest can go anywhere else. The little things matter and if people dont appreciate it then why do we bother??? thats prob the attitude retailers are getting why it leads to shit products


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## Yob

I get quite a lot of my bits amd pieces from springvale, a while ago i noticed that the ss barb on my HLT was rusting which i thought very strange, it was kind of scored on the inside and a look at his in store stock showed more like it. He replaced it without question when i told him about it and without him even laying eyes on it (returned to him next visit) so perhaps the problem is not just restricted to these elements and with his manufacturer.

Either way a faulty product should be replaced. 

Late last year I had my immersion element fail on a brew day (xmas swap brewday) amd flew off to get an element like kev's from boronia as an emergency fix.. Christ... i just suspended it in the HLT probably not even fully immersed.. I rang the supplier the following Monday fairly irate and they sent me a replacement on the spot without even sighting the blown up one.

Yob


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## QldKev

practicalfool said:


> Just throwing it out there, is this problem localised to buyers getting these from resellers or to ones purchased from keg king itself - physical store?
> 
> That said, I bought a couple of SS fb from KK recently and even in the shop itself, they had spots of rust on them. Flap wheel took care of it and the rust hasn't returned whatsoever. It just might be that walk in customers pick and choose the better handled sticks... Also, Kevin's lost 2 in a row so the shop response sounds like they are suspicious and defensive about it. Their customer service in the store was pretty awesome. Hope they decide to give the thread some credence and check up on the quality control of these. After all, not every buyer complains, most DIYers just fix it (like I did).




I don't really want to bring third parties into this, although it is a Keg King product, the initial purchase was not from Keg King. Keg King sent the replacement element to me as I live several hundreds of km's away and couldn't just pop in to the initial retailer for a replacement, and this retailer said he was sick of sending out replacements at his expense. So when I sent the email about the replacement product having issues, the email was forwarded to Keg King to verify it is ok to replace without me needing to send this one in to help save cost of postage. I even mentioned I would be happy to place an order for other goods so we could just add the element to the package to eliminate costs for sending it out.

So it seems this element has rusted, the false bottoms have rust, ss barb's have rust, and I've been told about thermometers also with rust. But somehow he says this is my problem?


QldKev


----------



## Parks

QldKev said:


> ... and this retailer said he was sick of sending out replacements at his expense.


This to me suggests the retailer is stupid in continuing to stock a faulty product.


----------



## pk.sax

They stock what people buy. Not everyone complains really. That's the thing. HBers are generally quite handy. And complaining and waiting for replacements is a huge bother if it's mail order, partly the reason why some very good online/mail order companies will send replacements without a question, it's just not worth eroding the confidence.

I don't think they had made in china standards in mind when they dreamed up our original warranty laws etc. it's a big issue and I don't think any particle retailer can do more than why they do atm. I bet if Ross had a readily available heating element with comparable ease of installation and cost, he'd have switched by now. (yes, I believe taking a name is better than anonymising an obvious person).

Point here is that when the cost of fixing DIY is so small, the manufacturer isn't gonna get tons of impetus to improve things.

btw, when I visited, none of the SS fittings had rust, pretty good quality as from everywhere else.


----------



## iralosavic

Frothie said:


> I have a keg king element in my HLT, after 4 brews its still like new. I've always had good dealings with Kee and Keg King, its unfortunate that your experience has not been great.
> 
> As far as alternatives, I purchased an element from these guys for my kettle:
> 
> http://www.thermalproducts.com.au/hotwater...erheader.html#3
> 
> I use part number H03569 which is 3600W, but H03566 & H03565 are 2400W and 2000W. It was about $55. They use a 1" screw in boss. I purchased a stainless steel 1" lock nut from Geordi for a few bucks and works a treat.
> 
> You do need to do some handy work to box in the back and connect a lead, but its not overly difficult. Here is mine using an alloy jaycar box, I used to have a power lead wired onto the element but it was a PITA to move and clean the kettle with a lead permanently hanging off it so I just changed it to a male IEC socket.



Where does the earth screw end? Is there room between the keg and the jiffy box for the bolt head to fit (I thought it would sit flush given that the element butt is within the case)? Cheers

Kev, have you spoken with Kee on the phone or have you dealt with him via written media only? A friendly discussion could help change the outcome of your situation. Emails etc are very impersonal and there is no reality of conflict to keep things in check.


----------



## Parks

iralosavic said:


> Where does the earth screw end? Is there room between the keg and the jiffy box for the bolt head to fit (I thought it would sit flush given that the element butt is within the case)? Cheers


I would expect the bolt to go right through and into the keg. If you look at the photo it is attached to the base rim so this wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## QldKev

I had a quick read of the safety recalls website, not so much for the rust issue, more concerned about the melting of the wires that has happened on a few of these.

It does not matter this is an imported product, it must confirm 100% to Australian Standards to be sold here. From what I read it is the responsibility of both the supplier and the retailer to ensure products meet the standards, and if not withdraw the product from sale and if necessary perform a safety recall. If someone is electrocuted/killed or a fire breaks out then they could be held liable as they obviously know about this issue.

As far as the rust and general product is concerned I realize Keg King / http://mchaustralia.com/ is a China Trade Specialist which is great to help get some cheaper products in our shops, I own one of their fridge setups etc, but I expect their products to be QA'd prior to them being released for sale here and that they will conform to the relevant safety standards.


----------



## JaseH

iralosavic said:


> Where does the earth screw end? Is there room between the keg and the jiffy box for the bolt head to fit (I thought it would sit flush given that the element butt is within the case)? Cheers



The earth bolt goes right through the bottom lip of the keg, there is a nut and spring washer on the other side. It also serves to secure the box to the keg. One thing I found with these elements was that the thread on the boss was not quite deep enough to sandwich the jiffy box, keg wall and seal altogether and still be able to start the nut. So I mounted the element in the keg wall then cut a hex shaped hole in the jiffy box so it slips neatly over the boss of the element. It works quite well. I ran a bead of silicon around the gap between the box and element boss to seal it up.


----------



## NickB

I bought one of these elements recently (I use 3 in my setup) and straight out of the box there was surface rust, and a visible seam running the length of the element. Returned to CB and swapped no questions.

As for the melting cables - mine do get extremely hot, and I am sure this will be a failure point in the future. The problem seems to be that these were not designed to be used for extended periods at boiling temps... If you look at the cables, they're all .75mm2 cables, that are really not suitable for puling 9 Amps through for an extended period. You will get overheating and insulation breakdown. They should all be at least 2.5mm2, and if/when mine die I will be wiring them with this size wire.

It's the same as any IEC kettle cord. Wires are too small, but they're only designed to be pulling that amount of power for a short amount of time (i.e. the 3 mins it takes to boil a kettle).

If I could get a weldless element in this style (same size mounting hole for example), with either better quality cable OR the need to wire yourself, then I'd be sold, regardless of the cost. I'm just not overly taken with the electric elements designed for HWS etc as the stainless models are super expensive.

Also, good to see people earthing things properly. Will save your life if something goes wrong. I would also suggest to make sure your brewery circuits(s) are connected to RCDs/Safety Switches. 

Cheers


----------



## lagers44

Has anyone thought of these guys ? Turks I got mine 15yrs ago and still going strong. Used in the HLT 2400W screw in and insulated just needed something like a 2" hole.


----------



## fergi

QldKev said:


> I don't really want to bring third parties into this, although it is a Keg King product, the initial purchase was not from Keg King. Keg King sent the replacement element to me as I live several hundreds of km's away and couldn't just pop in to the initial retailer for a replacement, and
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> this retailer said he was sick of sending out replacements at his expense
> 
> . So when I sent the email about the replacement product having issues, the email was forwarded to Keg King to verify it is ok to replace without me needing to send this one in to help save cost of postage. I even mentioned I would be happy to place an order for other goods so we could just add the element to the package to eliminate costs for sending it out.
> 
> So it seems this element has rusted, the false bottoms have rust, ss barb's have rust, and I've been told about thermometers also with rust. But somehow he says this is my problem?
> 
> 
> QldKev




i cant believe this thread has not had a reply from the manufacturer or retailer.

you dont need to be half smart to know these units have a major problem, they are obviously not fit for the purpose.

if the retailer is sick of replacing them at his own expense well stop selling them, it is very simple business practice.
source the elements somewhere else, the majority of guys have stated they would rather pay more for a hassle free unit.

i tried to buy an element from beerbelly a couple of months ago and when i went in Amanda showed me the returned units and would not sell me one, i beleive she said they have stopped dealing with the supplier of these units. sound business ethics i reckon.

fergi


----------



## DJR

I have used mine about 5-10 times as a HLT element, not a kettle element, and it's been fine so far. The lead does get warm and feels like the plastic will melt, i have put some extra duct tape around the lead and put a little bit on a loop to stop the lead sagging as it gets warm. I think the lead could have issues if it starts to get warm, sags and then the extra weight on the lead causes a split in the insulation.

For the price they are fine IMO, another option is the custom made one that Matho got, i've seen the unit in the flesh and it is very well made, also as it is quite long the heat load is quite low which is good for avoiding hot spots and excessive scorching of the wort

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=834488

However if a retailer will not stand behind the product if it has issues, that's no good at all. At least they could say "use a flap wheel or a SS scrubbie, remove the rust and then re-passivate the steel oh and here's a voucher for the hassle" if they are not willing to replace


----------



## merlin032

fergi said:


> i tried to buy an element from beerbelly a couple of months ago and when i went in Amanda showed me the returned units and would not sell me one, i beleive she said they have stopped dealing with the supplier of these units. sound business ethics i reckon.




that's the type of response I'd expect to see from a decent retailer. 


Since having the issue with the kegking element (the usual wiring issue that everyone seems to be having), my LHB shop has made the decision to stop stocking the elements and has warned me off some of their other products (all because of quality issues) - they showed me a box of about 12 heating elements they were returning to keg king with the same issue that I had. 

I guess you get what you pay for - I've learnt my lesson


----------



## punkin

Would there be interest in a version of elements that used Incolloy 800 elements with your choice of wattage from 2000 to 3600 watt and beyond in a mirror polished stainless housing?

The housing is built around 2" triclamp ferrulles, so would require a ferrule to be welded to the keg.

These are housings that are for the rims tube i'll be offering is all, but i could see they would work brilliantly on all boilers.

Not weldless is all.


----------



## Yob

practicalfool said:


> btw, when I visited, none of the SS fittings had rust, pretty good quality as from everywhere else.



No actual rust on the fittings in store but I did notice the score on the inside of it, this is what started to rust under operational conditions. 

When I was last in the store there were several more with the 'score' on the inside near the barb base but many more were smooth... possible a dud batch or something, dunno

Wasnt an issue for me personally as he willingly replaced it at the mere mention of the problem.

Yob


----------



## Parks

punkin said:


> Would there be interest in a version of elements that used Incolloy 800 elements with your choice of wattage from 2000 to 3600 watt and beyond in a mirror polished stainless housing?
> 
> The housing is built around 2" triclamp ferrulles, so would require a ferrule to be welded to the keg.
> 
> These are housings that are for the rims tube i'll be offering is all, but i could see they would work brilliantly on all boilers.
> 
> Not weldless is all.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 53719


If you can get the 2 1/2" ferrule (I think) then they will fit perfectly an upside-down 50L stainless vessel as weldless. Only thing would be the length and how far it stuck upright into the vessel.


----------



## Wimmig

Considering all the consistancy in issues (with the wire harness melting) you would guess the only logical thing to do by local laws is issue a voluntary recall on the product and suspend sales. The entire design needs to be gone over, and beefed up. Just build the harness a few grades higher with 300% headroom and stop them failing.

You would assume the seller would fix this up without issue. 

Though, if you think the product has a genuine fault and needs something done about it there is always....

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1023609



> What is a major problem?
> Major problems include:
> 
> *An issue that would have stopped a reasonable person from buying the product or service if theyd known about it.*
> A product that:
> is unsafe
> is significantly different from the sample or description
> doesnt do what you said it would, or what the consumer asked for and cant be easily fixed.
> A service that:
> is substantially unfit for its common purpose and cant be fixed easily within a reasonable time
> *does not meet the specific purpose the consumer asked for and cant be fixed easily within a reasonable time*
> creates an unsafe situation.


----------



## keifer33

In regards to Frothies link a 2400w screw in with inocoloy coating delivered was around $90 (to WA which was around $15) plus a nut of ebay for around $6 and a box an wiring would work out to be about 3 times more than the keg king but im guessing its going to be you get what you pay for instance.


----------



## QldKev

Wimmig said:


> Considering all the consistancy in issues (with the wire harness melting) you would guess the only logical thing to do by local laws is issue a voluntary recall on the product and suspend sales. The entire design needs to be gone over, and beefed up. Just build the harness a few grades higher with 300% headroom and stop them failing.
> 
> You would assume the seller would fix this up without issue.
> 
> Though, if you think the product has a genuine fault and needs something done about it there is always....
> 
> http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1023609



I don't think mine would need a recall as such, it's more a nuisance factor.

With the people who have had the wires melting I surprised no one has reported it, as I think that is what would be an un-safe product.
http://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/in...AnUnsafeProduct


----------



## sponge

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/350528123745?ss...984.m1439.l2649

I bought myself one of these for the HLT. Probably shouldve gone SS, but oh well. Should hopefully be fine considering as though its for water heating  


Sponge


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/350528123745?ss...984.m1439.l2649
> 
> I bought myself one of these for the HLT. Probably shouldve gone SS, but oh well. Should hopefully be fine considering as though its for water heating
> 
> 
> Sponge



For the HLT I think you will not have any issues, they sit in HWS for years without playing up.

It's more the wort that is acid, that s/s would be better

Good price too


----------



## sponge

Yea I assumed as much. Have that for the HLT, and a kettle element for the HX, with a 3 ring burner for the kettle.

All seems to go pretty well (although the HX isnt set up just yet). Don't plan on going electric for the kettle anytime soon, although I do have an immersion element that I throw in to assist with the wort coming to the boil faster, then turn it off once its boiling and turn the outside ring off the burner to maintain a nice rolling boil.

Glory days.


Sponge


----------



## QldKev

Since a lot of guys are using the urns for boiling, how much are the crown/birko elements?


----------



## punkin

Parks said:


> If you can get the 2 1/2" ferrule (I think) then they will fit perfectly an upside-down 50L stainless vessel as weldless. Only thing would be the length and how far it stuck upright into the vessel.



These are 2" triclamp which is the same as a keg top, so yes, they will clamp straight to an up side down keg. That will have the element pointing upwards, though i believe they can be bent if nessecary.


----------



## fergi

punkin said:


> Would there be interest in a version of elements that used Incolloy 800 elements with your choice of wattage from 2000 to 3600 watt and beyond in a mirror polished stainless housing?
> 
> The housing is built around 2" triclamp ferrulles, so would require a ferrule to be welded to the keg.
> 
> These are housings that are for the rims tube i'll be offering is all, but i could see they would work brilliantly on all boilers.
> 
> Not weldless is all.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 53719





I would be interested in an element that will last, what sort of price would we be looking at for the whole setup, i know it wont be cheap but if its a quality fitting that will last 5 years or so i would be interested , 

fergi


----------



## seemax

Have being using one for about 15 brews with no issues. Element has no sign of rust .. I give it a quick scrub after each brew with sodium perc.

I agree the wire size is too small for constant use at 9A. Typically minimum size is 2.5mm^2. The wires get warm and soft, but still touchable by hand ... fair way off melt point. Not to say it wont happen at the join to the element though.

Cheapo extension cords , rated at 10A are using the same wire size... so they both probably meet AS3000 (don't have a copy handy though) ... if you're keen to find out spend the $130 or ask your friendly sparky for a look.

What type of QA do you expect for the price? A visual inspection for rust would be a good start


----------



## punkin

fergi said:


> I would be interested in an element that will last, what sort of price would we be looking at for the whole setup, i know it wont be cheap but if its a quality fitting that will last 5 years or so i would be interested ,
> 
> fergi



This would ship as a kit. I'm not an electrician and i would reccomend an electrician wires the three wires. Everything would ship together including all the parts for the wires, two triclamps and the element. It may or may not include a short piece of lead and a standard plug.

With a 2400w Incolloy element i would expect the price to be around the $100-130. Depending on wether i can source the elements cheaper, the price may come down

The kit without the element would also be available if you wanted to source your own cheapo ebay element. It fits all 1" bsp or npt screw in elements. B) 


NotasPriceyAsYou'dThinkPunkin


----------



## sponge

A little OT...

We go for 1.5mm wire for 240V at work as a minimum, although we normally use 2.5mm for 240V devices.

I'm sure the 0.5/0.75mm wire meets the 3000 standards or they couldn't be sold in Australia.


Sponge


----------



## fergi

punkin said:


> This would ship as a kit. I'm not an electrician and i would reccomend an electrician wires the three wires. Everything would ship together including all the parts for the wires, two triclamps and the element. It may or may not include a short piece of lead and a standard plug.
> 
> With a 2400w Incolloy element i would expect the price to be around the $100-130. Depending on wether i can source the elements cheaper, the price may come down
> 
> The kit without the element would also be available if you wanted to source your own cheapo ebay element. It fits all 1" bsp or npt screw in elements. B)
> 
> 
> NotasPriceyAsYou'dThinkPunkin




i would be looking at the complete kit, saves looking for other bits n pieces, that price is definitely in the ball park for a good quality setup.like the clamps idea too.
fergi


----------



## NickB

True, but I would imagine (again, don't have my AS3000 on hand) that for 10A 1.5mm would be to spec, but for extended use at boiling temps, I would imagine not so much.

Cheers


----------



## pk.sax

Maybe these elements were designed thinking that people will have a load control device wired in. Something that controls the current and slows the heating down, the max 2400 watt being only the peak power to ramp from cold when the water is absorbing heat rapidly from the element/connection.

Anyway, I bet this is one instance where a product should be sold with a safety notice about wtf it's intended operating conditions are. Then leave it to the buyer to decide suitability.


----------



## IainMcLean

practicalfool said:


> Maybe these elements were designed thinking that people will have a load control device wired in. Something that controls the current and slows the heating down, the max 2400 watt being only the peak power to ramp from cold when the water is absorbing heat rapidly from the element/connection.
> 
> Anyway, I bet this is one instance where a product should be sold with a safety notice about wtf it's intended operating conditions are. Then leave it to the buyer to decide suitability.



That's an assumption that can't be made when you're putting a product to market as it has to be fit for purpose, and hoping people will have some form of auxiliary control means some people won't; so their product application is not fit for purpose.


----------



## fcmcg

Yippie Ki Yay said:


> That's an assumption that can't be made when you're putting a product to market as it has to be fit for purpose, and hoping people will have some form of auxiliary control means some people won't; so their product application is not fit for purpose.


It surprises me that not a single person from keg king has weighed into this debacle...
When a member of the G & G team was pin pointed on here , John Preston was onto it...
Maybe someone needs to email Kee ??? 
Then there is always the bulk buy pick up at his in a couple of weeks ...maybe everyone pickIng up grain says something lol
My 2c anyway
F


----------



## pk.sax

Yippie Ki Yay said:


> That's an assumption that can't be made when you're putting a product to market as it has to be fit for purpose, and hoping people will have some form of auxiliary control means some people won't; so their product application is not fit for purpose.


Exactly.
But then, can you pin them down on this? They don't say boil wort with this. They don't even mention it is for brewing.
Apart from the fact that it is sold in a brewing shop.
Now, if the retailer has a colourful description on their product page, that could certainly get them in trouble.

Besides that, I noticed that for an electrical item, I received mine with absolutely 0 paperwork. No spec sheet, safety advice etc. for selling an electrical device by retail, that is a definite wrong. I'm no lawyer but pretty sure that stuff is mandatory. Even other cheap Chinese crap on the market comes with that. As it is an engineered product, it needs to be provided with a CE certificate and all that goes with it.

These are basic things, if followed right solve a whole lot of problems that seem to be pointed out. Now that would be what is perhaps illegal about it.

PS: not sure if selling without a power cord absolves the retailers from the above.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

fergthebrewer said:


> It surprises me that not a single person from keg king has weighed into this debacle...
> When a member of the G & G team was pin pointed on here , John Preston was onto it...
> Maybe someone needs to email Kee ???
> Then there is always the bulk buy pick up at his in a couple of weeks ...maybe everyone pickIng up grain says something lol
> My 2c anyway
> F



Hey gus,

Apparently Kev alerted Kee of thread already but still nothing.

Cheers BDB


----------



## bonj

practicalfool said:


> Exactly.
> But then, can you pin them down on this? They don't say boil wort with this. They don't even mention it is for brewing.
> Apart from the fact that it is sold in a brewing shop.
> Now, if the retailer has a colourful description on their product page, that could certainly get them in trouble.
> 
> Besides that, I noticed that for an electrical item, I received mine with absolutely 0 paperwork. No spec sheet, safety advice etc. for selling an electrical device by retail, that is a definite wrong. I'm no lawyer but pretty sure that stuff is mandatory. Even other cheap Chinese crap on the market comes with that. As it is an engineered product, it needs to be provided with a CE certificate and all that goes with it.
> 
> These are basic things, if followed right solve a whole lot of problems that seem to be pointed out. Now that would be what is perhaps illegal about it.
> 
> PS: not sure if selling without a power cord absolves the retailers from the above.


The fact that it is sold by a brewing supplier is enough to satisfy the brewing purpose for the 'fit for purpose' requirement. It also needs to be of merchantable quality. If it is advertised as stainless and sold for brewing, then rusting fails both requirements. I'd suggest to the retailer that they might like to replace the item as the ACCC doesn't look kindly on breaches of the Trade Practises Act, (or whatever its new name is), and neither do the respective state small claims tribunals.


----------



## Wimmig

Bonj said:


> The fact that it is sold by a brewing supplier is enough to satisfy the brewing purpose for the 'fit for purpose' requirement. It also needs to be of merchantable quality. If it is advertised as stainless and sold for brewing, then rusting fails both requirements. I'd suggest to the retailer that they might like to replace the item as the ACCC doesn't look kindly on breaches of the Trade Practises Act, (or whatever its new name is), and neither do the respective state small claims tribunals.



Dead on. I'm sure the ACCC will have some swift words to the retailer. That is, if they get away without a nasty fine.


----------



## DU99

there's also the office of fair trading/consumer affairs


----------



## zxhoon

on top of the ACC/Fair trade posts above, it just doesn't seem to be smart business practice to me....

upset enough people and they will go elsewhere for their products, lose a few customers over something as cheap as this and you lose thousands in business down the track, very silly...


----------



## Gar

zxhoon said:


> upset enough people and they will go elsewhere for their products, lose a few customers over something as cheap as this and you lose thousands in business down the track, very silly...



Yep, I know I'll be looking elsewhere.


----------



## np1962

Unfortunately it is the responsibility of the retailer from whom the product was purchased to honour the warranty. Particularly unfortunate given it seems there is a manufacturing fault involved but that's how the law stands. At least in SA.
A retailer cannot just say "We no longer deal with this particular supplier, direct all your warranty issues to them yourself" as I know one retailer has done.


----------



## Filby

I spoke to Kee yesterday as I have had 2 out of 3 elements fail with melted wires. He said he would replace them when the new shipment came in at the end of this month. He also said that it appears the problem is fixed in the new batch.


Cheers

Fil


----------



## QldKev

Filby said:


> I spoke to Kee yesterday as I have had 2 out of 3 elements fail with melted wires. He said he would replace them when the new shipment came in at the end of this month. He also said that it appears the problem is fixed in the new batch.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Fil




Wasn't it also fixed in ver 2, and then in ver 3, and now ver X?

I wonder is there going to be a recall for the prior ones?


----------



## QldKev

punkin said:


> This would ship as a kit. I'm not an electrician and i would reccomend an electrician wires the three wires. Everything would ship together including all the parts for the wires, two triclamps and the element. It may or may not include a short piece of lead and a standard plug.
> 
> With a 2400w Incolloy element i would expect the price to be around the $100-130. Depending on wether i can source the elements cheaper, the price may come down
> 
> The kit without the element would also be available if you wanted to source your own cheapo ebay element. It fits all 1" bsp or npt screw in elements. B)
> 
> 
> NotasPriceyAsYou'dThinkPunkin



Do you know a ball park figure on how much it would cost to have the bit welded to the kettle.


----------



## punkin

I can ship the ferrulle with the kit, depends on how well you get on with a welder?



A box of beer would see most small jobs like this done in most shops.


----------



## QldKev

Another elements looks like it's worth trying

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electrical-imme...=item4d006316e7 

Pitty it's not a bit more powerful.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

QldKev said:


> Another elements looks like it's worth trying
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electrical-imme...=item4d006316e7
> 
> Pitty it's not a bit more powerful.


Cant see much under 1800W doing a fair job. 2000-3000W is what you need. Waiting on my 3000W cheapy off ebay to test run.
Nev


----------



## QldKev

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Cant see much under 1800W doing a fair job. 2000-3000W is what you need. Waiting on my 3000W cheapy off ebay to test run.
> Nev



I'm thinking a total of at least 4,500 to 5,000w for what I need :lol: 

But the less elements I can do it in the better.


----------



## keifer33

QldKev said:


> Another elements looks like it's worth trying
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electrical-imme...=item4d006316e7
> 
> Pitty it's not a bit more powerful.



Bugger it. Im going to order a few as they will suit my mini batch system nicely and are dirt cheap. from what i can work out dn25 is 1" thread.


----------



## punkin

QldKev said:


> I'm thinking a total of at least 4,500 to 5,000w for what I need :lol:
> 
> But the less elements I can do it in the better.




You can get a 4800 from stokes. Don't forget it'll draw 20 amps though  

Two 2400's on seperate circuits is more realistic for most houses.


----------



## QldKev

punkin said:


> You can get a 4800 from stokes. Don't forget it'll draw 20 amps though
> 
> Two 2400's on seperate circuits is more realistic for most houses.




I'm allowing 3 x 10amp and 1 x 5amp lines for the brewery. The 5amp is a line sharing with march pump, a fan, stereo etc 

The HLT has 2 x 10amp, the RIMS is 10amp, HERMS 10amp (actually 1800w so 7.5amp) and now I want to power up the kettle with elec.

Brew day is something like this
Start - HLT x 2 to get to temp as quick as possible (takes 1hr)
Mash time - HLT x 1, RIMS x 1, HERMS x 1, pumps etc on the 5amp line
Planned boil - once at mash out temp, use HLT and RIMS power onto kettle, once all wort transferred frees up third 10amp line.


----------



## QldKev

QldKev said:


> I wonder how good these things are ebay 2000w element
> 
> They would have a lower heat density as a bonus.
> 
> Just need a basic box to house the connection and pick up the earth.



My element got here today, looks like I'll have a chance to get it hooked up this weekend, and see how it runs. It's heavier duty than I expected form the pic. Fingers crossed it will be more reliable than the keg king ones, not that will be hard. 

QldKev


----------



## Maheel

QldKev said:


> My element got here today, looks like I'll have a chance to get it hooked up this weekend, and see how it runs. It's heavier duty than I expected form the pic. Fingers crossed it will be more reliable than the keg king ones, not that will be hard.
> 
> QldKev



mate can you give us a pic of it and a review once you get it in 

how are you attaching a earth ? would a spade-O terminal thing under the nut through the pot wall might be the go?


----------



## QldKev

Maheel said:


> mate can you give us a pic of it and a review once you get it in
> 
> how are you attaching a earth ? would a spade-O terminal thing under the nut through the pot wall might be the go?




I'll grab some pics and may even write a how-to for it. 

The Wiring and Earth will be same as This one, with the changes to suit the element. 

QldKev


edit: Fixed up the link, the one to LS1 forum may not be much need on a homebrew forum :huh:


----------



## sponge

Maheel said:


> mate can you give us a pic of it and a review once you get it in
> 
> how are you attaching a earth ? would a spade-O terminal thing under the nut through the pot wall might be the go?



That's how I was going to earth the HLT (not using the same element, although another ebay one)

Pretty sure there was a photo of someones setup that had the o-ring terminal attached to the nut that held the housing for the element to the HLT.

Haven't been able to find it again though, sorry.


Sponge


----------



## sponge

Any chance of a screenshot or something similar Kev?

Can't access the link you sent through..


Sponge


----------



## Maheel

i am ordering a couple of 1" screw in ones on Monday, a 2400 and a 3600
might use the same box on the back but a 15amp male plug and bit of heavy lead sticking rather than a jug plug thing

or maybe this sort of idea


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> Any chance of a screenshot or something similar Kev?
> 
> Can't access the link you sent through..
> 
> 
> Sponge



Pic stolen from here






They also had a $5 off card in the package with a link to their website.

http://www.uxcell.com/220v-2kw-type-stainl...h-p-191036.html

Element $8.99
Post $5 for the first and $2 after that.

Also got plenty of other useful toys on their site

QldKev


----------



## sponge

QldKev said:


> Pic stolen from here
> 
> View attachment 54115
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They also had a $5 off card in the package with a link to their website.
> 
> http://www.uxcell.com/220v-2kw-type-stainl...h-p-191036.html
> 
> Element $8.99
> Post $5 for the first and $2 after that.
> 
> Also got plenty of other useful toys on their site
> 
> QldKev



Ahh yes, thats the picture I was thinking of, cheers for that.

Pretty simple way of ensuring that the brewery remains plenty safe after DIY electronics. Every homebrew setup should really ensure its earthed. Not much extra hassle for a whole world of safety


Sponge


----------



## QldKev

Test completed

Pic showing size against a bottle, and my $5 voucher 




Temp vessel drilled to suit mounting, mounted easily and no water leaks. 
All wired up, earth picked up from the element housing, as the vesslel is plastic.



Got warm pretty quick. 




Tested for voltage leak into the water, passed. 
Draw 1900w (ok since spec'd at 2KW)
Noted V at input was only 229v :angry: 


Notes:
Main probe is stainless, 
Bulk head fitting is Copper, including the inside of the vessel.
Soldering work of the probe to the bulkhead is decent workmanship.

Overall for the money, so far, excellent value. 

The only thing left to mount it properly into the main vessel including an appropriate house for the wiring, which I will use a die-cast box. Then following that the last test is time trials for how long it lasts. 


QldKev


----------



## Acasta

QldKev said:


> Test completed


Very interesting! Looks like it'd be easier to mount in a vessel due to its smaller hole sizes. You mat be onto something here kev!
Cheers for paving the way!


----------



## Screwtop

Frothie said:


> I have a keg king element in my HLT, after 4 brews its still like new. I've always had good dealings with Kee and Keg King, its unfortunate that your experience has not been great.
> 
> As far as alternatives, I purchased an element from these guys for my kettle:
> 
> http://www.thermalproducts.com.au/hotwater...erheader.html#3
> 
> I use part number H03569 which is 3600W, but H03566 & H03565 are 2400W and 2000W. It was about $55. They use a 1" screw in boss. I purchased a stainless steel 1" lock nut from Geordi for a few bucks and works a treat.
> 
> You do need to do some handy work to box in the back and connect a lead, but its not overly difficult. Here is mine using an alloy jaycar box, I used to have a power lead wired onto the element but it was a PITA to move and clean the kettle with a lead permanently hanging off it so I just changed it to a male IEC socket.




Nice install and safe................ well maybe those long ST screws should be cut off or replaced with shorter ones.

Nice Frothie!!

Screwy


----------



## Screwtop

QldKev said:


> Test completed
> 
> Pic showing size against a bottle, and my $5 voucher
> View attachment 54120
> 
> 
> 
> Temp vessel drilled to suit mounting, mounted easily and no water leaks.
> All wired up, earth picked up from the element housing, as the vesslel is plastic.
> View attachment 54121
> 
> 
> Got warm pretty quick.
> View attachment 54122
> 
> 
> 
> Tested for voltage leak into the water, passed.
> Draw 1900w (ok since spec'd at 2KW)
> Noted V at input was only 229v :angry:
> 
> 
> Notes:
> Main probe is stainless,
> Bulk head fitting is Copper, including the inside of the vessel.
> Soldering work of the probe to the bulkhead is decent workmanship.
> 
> Overall for the money, so far, excellent value.
> 
> The only thing left to mount it properly into the main vessel including an appropriate house for the wiring, which I will use a die-cast box. Then following that the last test is time trials for how long it lasts.
> 
> 
> QldKev



Kev.

Nice install. As usual lot of overkill re elements. My old 1800W clunker has worked well for 6 years. All depends on your process.

Set timer to heat to 77 to start at 5am. Wake at 6am and go to the brewery. Water in HLT is at 55 so drain strike water to MLT. Start recirc with HEX set at 54. Once temp in the MLT/HEX system is at 55 add grist. After 10 min adjust HEX controller temp to 66 and check after 10 min. Rest at 66 for 60 min then ramp to 72 for 20 min then ramp to 77 for a 10 min mash out rest. Remainder of brewing liquor (water) has been heating in the HLT at the set temp of 77. Begin draining to the kettle (gravity) as the 77, sparge water is pumped to the MLT at the same rate as the wort is draining to the kettle (continuous/fly sparge) maintaining level.

Why use/need large power hungry expensive elements?????

Screwy


----------



## QldKev

Screwtop said:


> Kev.
> 
> Nice install. As usual lot of overkill re elements. My old 1800W clunker has worked well for 6 years. All depends on your process.
> 
> Set timer to heat to 77 to start at 5am. Wake at 6am and go to the brewery. Water in HLT is at 55 so drain strike water to MLT. Start recirc with HEX set at 54. Once temp in the MLT/HEX system is at 55 add grist. After 10 min adjust HEX controller temp to 66 and check after 10 min. Rest at 66 for 60 min then ramp to 72 for 20 min then ramp to 77 for a 10 min mash out rest. Remainder of brewing liquor (water) has been heating in the HLT at the set temp of 77. Begin draining to the kettle (gravity) as the 77, sparge water is pumped to the MLT at the same rate as the wort is draining to the kettle (continuous/fly sparge) maintaining level.
> 
> Why use/need large power hungry expensive elements?????
> 
> Screwy



I think the size of the elements will depend on the size of the system and where they are used. What you use will not suit everyone a we have different requirements. If I just had a single batch system life would be easier.
HLT 
I'm not as concerned about the initial time to get to strike temp, at the moment it's a bit over 1hr with the current 4400w worth of elements. Good time to workout recipes, and measure / crush grain etc.
It then takes almost an hour to recover from when I drain the initial strike water, and top up with the extra water needed for mash out, to get to 78. So it doesn't allow too much spare time against a single step 60min mash on brew day. That's how I calculated it, and that is also ok. Obviously I could get a lot larger HLT and offset more time prior to the strike, by my brewery vessels are big enough as it is.
HX
Basically I've got enough heating so I can get almost 1 degree per minute with a good strong recirc.
KETTLE
These days I'm brewing in the main carport of the house as I don't have a brew shed at this house, and most likely wont have a brew shed for a couple of years. While I love the NASA burners for pure grunt work, I'm looking to get rid of LPG burners from my system as inside I find them too noisy and hot. A 1800w element wont boil a 140L pot, plus the heat density of a kettle element will cause issues in the kettle; hence my research for elements to run the kettle. 



QldKev


----------



## Screwtop

QldKev said:


> I think the size of the elements will depend on the size of the system and where they are used. What you use will not suit everyone a we have different requirements. If I just had a single batch system life would be easier.
> HLT
> I'm not as concerned about the initial time to get to strike temp, at the moment it's a bit over 1hr with the current 4400w worth of elements. Good time to workout recipes, and measure / crush grain etc.
> It then takes almost an hour to recover from when I drain the initial strike water, and top up with the extra water needed for mash out, to get to 78. So it doesn't allow too much spare time against a single step 60min mash on brew day. That's how I calculated it, and that is also ok. Obviously I could get a lot larger HLT and offset more time prior to the strike, by my brewery vessels are big enough as it is.
> HX
> Basically I've got enough heating so I can get almost 1 degree per minute with a good strong recirc.
> KETTLE
> These days I'm brewing in the main carport of the house as I don't have a brew shed at this house, and most likely wont have a brew shed for a couple of years. While I love the NASA burners for pure grunt work, I'm looking to get rid of LPG burners from my system as inside I find them too noisy and hot. A 1800w element wont boil a 140L pot, plus the heat density of a kettle element will cause issues in the kettle; hence my research for elements to run the kettle.
> 
> 
> 
> QldKev




Agreed, must suit the application. My 1800W is in a 90L HLT works fine given my process and location.

Screwy


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> My 1800W is in a 90L HLT works fine given my process and location.
> Screwy





> Nice install. As usual lot of overkill re elements. My old 1800W clunker has worked well for 6 years. All depends on your process.



My replacement Keg King element is going ok after three brews even though I need to passify the ongoing rust with pickling paste ASAP.   :lol: 

With the expectation that the Keg King element isn't going to last the full 3-year warranty I've been looking around for a decent 2400w element to replace it & hopefully have found the answer thanks to other brewer's posts? :icon_cheers: 
No affilation yadda, yadda, but if you're needing a 2000w element then CraftBrewer stock a Plug & Play (copper) 2000w element for a reasonable price. It's not on their website but IMHO absolutely good for a HLT if you're not looking for a 2400w.

TP


----------



## black_labb

QldKev said:


> Test completed
> 
> Pic showing size against a bottle, and my $5 voucher
> View attachment 54120
> 
> 
> 
> Temp vessel drilled to suit mounting, mounted easily and no water leaks.
> All wired up, earth picked up from the element housing, as the vesslel is plastic.
> View attachment 54121
> 
> 
> Got warm pretty quick.
> View attachment 54122
> 
> 
> 
> Tested for voltage leak into the water, passed.
> Draw 1900w (ok since spec'd at 2KW)
> Noted V at input was only 229v :angry:
> 
> 
> Notes:
> Main probe is stainless,
> Bulk head fitting is Copper, including the inside of the vessel.
> Soldering work of the probe to the bulkhead is decent workmanship.
> 
> Overall for the money, so far, excellent value.
> 
> The only thing left to mount it properly into the main vessel including an appropriate house for the wiring, which I will use a die-cast box. Then following that the last test is time trials for how long it lasts.
> 
> 
> QldKev




Just pulled the trigger on a pair of those, good find.


----------



## QldKev

black_labb said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a pair of those, good find.




I've just ordered 3 from their website (I plan on running 2 on my kettle, and want one spare). I did notice the sizes are slightly smaller, and the pic is a stainless bulkhead. But with the $5 discount card from the ebay one, it cost $30.97 all up for 3 posted.

QldKev


----------



## sean_0

Had a keg king element blow on me yesterday during a brew. It was towards the end of the boil and I was about 10m away when it happened. Pretty scary. My GFCI tripped but there was quite a loud bang and some smoke from the element. Basically the insulation seems to have melted just where it joins the body of the element and let the neutral and live wires touch. I had already retired an older keg king element because I could see some fraying at the same point, but this one was bought about a year back and I was careful to inspect it before each brew day. There was no sign of any fraying before this happened, and it has only seen about 15 brews. Disappointing.


----------



## QldKev

TidalPete said:


> My replacement Keg King element is going ok after three brews even though I need to passify the ongoing rust with pickling paste ASAP.
> 
> With the expectation that the Keg King element isn't going to last the full 3-year warranty I've been looking around for a decent 2400w element to replace it & hopefully have found the answer thanks to other brewer's posts? :icon_cheers:
> No affilation yadda, yadda, but if you're needing a 2000w element then CraftBrewer stock a Plug & Play (copper) 2000w element for a reasonable price. It's not on their website but IMHO absolutely good for a HLT if you're not looking for a 2400w.
> 
> TP




*Well you've obviously have used it out of water and overheated it causing this issue!*   :lol: 

Wonder why craftbrewer doesn't put the element on the website. I think they would sell quite a few, if they were ok in the wort. So far I'm pretty happy with this ebay one. I'll post a couple of pics soon.


----------



## QldKev

sean_0 said:


> Had a keg king element blow on me yesterday during a brew. It was towards the end of the boil and I was about 10m away when it happened. Pretty scary. My GFCI tripped but there was quite a loud bang and some smoke from the element. Basically the insulation seems to have melted just where it joins the body of the element and let the neutral and live wires touch. I had already retired an older keg king element because I could see some fraying at the same point, but this one was bought about a year back and I was careful to inspect it before each brew day. There was no sign of any fraying before this happened, and it has only seen about 15 brews. Disappointing.



Hope no one gets hurt by these elements

Here's a website worth looking into, may some someone from being hurt. 
http://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/in...AnUnsafeProduct 

It would mean you would probably need to hang onto the element for them to inspect, so you won't be able to swap it over for a replacement. But do you really want another with these issues?


----------



## Parks

QldKev said:


> Hope no one gets hurt by these elements
> 
> Here's a website worth looking into, may some someone from being hurt.
> http://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/in...AnUnsafeProduct
> 
> It would mean you would probably need to hang onto the element for them to inspect, so you won't be able to swap it over for a replacement. But do you really want another with these issues?


This whole thing has become really disturbing. It is obviously not isolated to one or two units.

If I were selling these and someone was seriously hurt or even killed how could I live with myself...


----------



## sean_0

QldKev said:


> It would mean you would probably need to hang onto the element for them to inspect, so you won't be able to swap it over for a replacement. But do you really want another with these issues?



No, I certainly don't want another one. I'm done with these elements. I've only had two and both were faulty and had the same fault, one I caught in time, the other happened with no outward signs of any problem and resulted in a potentially dangerous blowout.


----------



## QldKev

Just got sent a pic of my new element, showing it all mounted up neatly. 







QldKev


----------



## kjparker

Just p[oking around on Uxcell, found this one which looks intersting as well! Could be good for a keggle setup

http://www.uxcell.com/stainless-steel-elec...w-p-193546.html


----------



## dicko

Hi all,

This has been an interesting read.
I have one of these elements in my HLT which with my operation only heats to 78deg c.

Has anyone had a problem using this element for the lower temperature HLT?

If my element stuffs up I am concerned about the large hole I drilled in the HLT to accomodate the thing.

It is dissapointing with the lack of response from KK.

Cheers


----------



## QldKev

dicko said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This has been an interesting read.
> I have one of these elements in my HLT which with my operation only heats to 78deg c.
> 
> Has anyone had a problem using this element for the lower temperature HLT?
> 
> If my element stuffs up I am concerned about the large hole I drilled in the HLT to accomodate the thing.
> 
> It is dissapointing with the lack of response from KK.
> 
> Cheers



Both my elements that have let me down, were only ever used in the HLT. But neither were the issue of melting cords (yet)

QldKev


----------



## dicko

QldKev said:


> Both my elements that have let me down, were only ever used in the HLT. But neither were the issue of melting cords (yet)
> 
> QldKev



That doesnt sound good Kev, so, how did you block up the hole in the HLT where the KK element fitted..??


----------



## QldKev

dicko said:


> That doesnt sound good Kev, so, how did you block up the hole in the HLT where the KK element fitted..??



Luckily the second one was only the rust issue at the start of this thread, so I paid to get it treated properly and so far no more rust, just some pits from how deep the foreign material was. When they fail (cause going by the stats they will) and being just for heating a HLT, I will swap them out for $8 kettle elements which require a larger hole. 

I should have just gone for the kettle elements from day dot. We don't really need much better in the HLT or a HERMS as it's not touching wort. There are a lot of kettle element powered systems that have been used for several years out there. 2 x $8 = $16 for kettle element, OR 2 x $40 = $80 for unreliable crap... I think I made the wrong choice.

QldKev


----------



## dicko

QldKev said:


> OR 2 x $40 = $80 for unreliable crap... I think I made the wrong choice.
> 
> QldKev



It appears that there is lot of usthat may have made that same choice.

Now I will be inspecting mine and getting one of those elements that you have used.

Thanks for the info,

Cheers


----------



## fcmcg

I mentioned to Kee , when I was in his shop a couple if weeks ago that I was surprised he had not got on AHB to defend himself or his business . He said he would have a look...
I also happened to be speaking to someone involved in a lhbs and they have stated that they have returned that much product to keg king that wasn't up to scratch , that it was almost at the point where the boss was considering not stocking the products BUT because so many of us brewers are tight wadds, and wouldn't buy the quality expensive stuff, they felt like they were stuck between a rock and a hard place...


----------



## dicko

fergthebrewer said:


> I mentioned to Kee , when I was in his shop a couple if weeks ago that I was surprised he had not got on AHB to defend himself or his business . He said he would have a look...
> I also happened to be speaking to someone involved in a lhbs and they have stated that they have returned that much product to keg king that wasn't up to scratch , that it was almost at the point where the boss was considering not stocking the products BUT because so many of us brewers are tight wadds, and wouldn't buy the quality expensive stuff, they felt like they were stuck between a rock and a hard place...



Well that's an unusual statement.

Maybe if the LHBS offered an option then we would have a choice.
In any case, the way I see it is that most brewing gear comes out of China these days anyway.
Of course this does not in any way give licence to a supplier to shirk his obligations.
The fact is - will the faulty units be replaced with units that are fit for purpose??

Cheers


----------



## Wolfy

dicko said:


> It is dissapointing with the lack of response from KK.


This has been said numerous times in this thread, and since I intend to purchase these elements from Keg King and I also ran the grain Bulk Buy there, I did mention the concerns to Kee.
Without intending to inflame the issue, or speak for anyone but myself, in this instance the warranty is covered by the retailer, not the wholesaler, so there is no reason to expect a pubic response from the wholesaler, or anything but a direct response to the purchaser from the retailer. But there is - IMHO - a whole lot of reasons why the retailer and wholesaler would probably want to sort the matter out quietly with the purchaser, which by posting on public forum makes impossible. As a consequence, I cannot imagine that either the wholesaler or retailer have anything to gain from posting here - which is probably why they have not.

As a consumer and potential purchaser of these elements I am concerned that what appears to be a warranty issue was not covered with a replacement (at least at the time the first post was made) but given the reputation of the retailer where it was purchased from, I assume that they have since communicated with *QldKev *the reason for this or offered a replacement.


----------



## glenwal

Wolfy said:


> <snip>there is no reason to expect a pubic response from the wholesaler, or anything but a direct response to the purchaser from the retailer. <snip>
> what appears to be a warranty issue was not covered with a replacement <snip>



The problem though, from what i have read in this thread, doesn't appear to be restricted to a single unit not being covered by warranty, but instead appears to be a manuafacturing/design defect in the units in general. And the real issue being that this defect then causes the item to be unsafe.

Whist it is true that it is the retailers responsibility to handle warranty claims, this seems more like a case where the supplier should be issuing a recall on the product completely.

Disclamer: I don't own one of these units, so cant comment personally on the quality. I have been watching this thread with alot of interest though as this is something I am likely to look at purchacing in the not to distant future when I upgrade my brew rig.


PS: Sorry to cut down your quote so much - not trying to take you out of context, but mearly to respond to these specific points.


----------



## fcmcg

dicko said:


> Well that's an unusual statement.
> 
> Maybe if the LHBS offered an option then we would have a choice.
> In any case, the way I see it is that most brewing gear comes out of China these days anyway.
> Of course this does not in any way give licence to a supplier to shirk his obligations.
> The fact is - will the faulty units be replaced with units that are fit for purpose??
> 
> Cheers


What I should have said was , when compared to products that come from places like Andale that are very expensive but quality...
I also should have made it clearer I assumed that they are finding it difficult to find quality and suitable product , out of china that is good quality


----------



## bonj

Warranties are in place to protect the consumer from faulty products. The manufacturer (where the product is manufactured overseas, the importer is deemed by law to be the manufacturer for warranty purposes) is responsible for warranties. The manufacturer may have a deal in place with retailers for them to be able to handle warranty claims, but in the event that the product was purchased either directly from the manufacturer, or the original retailer no longer exists, or the retailer is no longer taking warranty claims, then the manufacturer is responsible for warranty claims.

If the manufacturer (or importer) is not honouring the warranties, and it really is as widespread as it seems, I can see either an Office of Fair Trading/ACCC claim, or a class action lawsuit being successful against the manufacturer (or importer) in this case. It might be worth all parties having a read of the Competition and Consumer Act (2010) (new version of the Trade Practices Act(1974))

_edit: multiple spelling mistakes_


----------



## glenwal

Bonj said:


> The manufacturer <snip> is responsible for warranties.



from here


*Retailer Responsibility*It is the retailer who has the obligation to honour the

statutory warranty. The retailer cannot legally require that

the customer contact the manufacturer.


----------



## bonj

Contacting the ACCC sounds like the best option. State ministers (Office of Fair Trading) are included in the following, but they only apply to their state. Commonwealth Ministers' actions apply to the whole country.



Code:


122  Compulsory recall of consumer goods



			 (1)  A responsible Minister may, by written notice published on the internet, issue a recall notice for consumer goods of a particular kind if:



					 (a)  a person, in trade or commerce, supplies consumer goods of that kind; and



					 (b)  any of the following applies:



							  (i)  it appears to the responsible Minister that such goods will or may cause injury to any person;



							 (ii)  it appears to the responsible Minister that a reasonably foreseeable use (including a misuse) of such goods will or may cause injury to any person;



							(iii) a safety standard for such goods is in force and the goods do not comply with the standard;



							(iv)  an interim ban, or a permanent ban, on such goods is in force; and



					 (c)  it appears to the responsible Minister that one or more suppliers of such goods have not taken satisfactory action to prevent those goods causing injury to any person.



			 (2)  It is not necessary for the purposes of subsection (1)(c) for the responsible Minister to know the identities of any of the suppliers of the consumer goods of that kind.



			 (3)  A recall notice for consumer goods may be issued under subsection (1) even if the consumer goods have become fixtures since the time they were supplied.


----------



## JaseH

I was under the impression that KK had been honoring the warranty for those that the wiring had failed. It was just QldKevs rusty element that they unfortunately refused to replace?

If so then why all the talk about ACCC and Office of Fair Trading? I think this is being blown out of proportion a little.

Sure enough there may be some quality issues that needs to be addressed. But when you pay $40 for a plug and play element its obvious your not getting something made by a be-spectacled german bloke wearing a white lab coat with Bosch embroidered on his pocket.


----------



## QldKev

Wolfy said:


> This has been said numerous times in this thread, and since I intend to purchase these elements from Keg King and I also ran the grain Bulk Buy there, I did mention the concerns to Kee.
> Without intending to inflame the issue, or speak for anyone but myself, in this instance the warranty is covered by the retailer, not the wholesaler, so there is no reason to expect a pubic response from the wholesaler, or anything but a direct response to the purchaser from the retailer. But there is - IMHO - a whole lot of reasons why the retailer and wholesaler would probably want to sort the matter out quietly with the purchaser, which by posting on public forum makes impossible. As a consequence, I cannot imagine that either the wholesaler or retailer have anything to gain from posting here - which is probably why they have not.
> 
> As a consumer and potential purchaser of these elements I am concerned that what appears to be a warranty issue was not covered with a replacement (at least at the time the first post was made) but given the reputation of the retailer where it was purchased from, I assume that they have since communicated with *QldKev *the reason for this or offered a replacement.




I have already posted most details in this thread, but to clarify and add some detail

I did contact the retailer, who was happy to replace the unit. 
The retailer contacted the wholesaler (I was cc'd on the emails) to request it is ok to replace the unit without me needing to return the defective unit, due to me needing to foot the cost of post in both directions. ($40 unit costing me basically $30 in post to exchange it) 
The wholesaler claimed the damage was caused by me over heating the unit out of water therefore he did not think it was a valid warranty claim. _"If the elements are heated excessively (ie boiled dry) it will remove the pacification in the stainless which is what looks like has happened on that particular unit."_ and that I should re pickle it myself. 

I assured the wholesaler this product has never been switched on out of water, that there was no discolouration of the stainless or plastics on the product to suggest this. A couple of emails later I also inform them of my field related trade background, and explained why I believed a pacification process has not been perform. 
"_With the depth of the corrosion, I believe it is cause by contact with ions in the manufacturing and then insufficient/lack of a proper pacification process. Have a look at the depth and also pattern of the corrosion to see what I mean." and I added "the process is to use an acid which will remove any possible contaminants, both external and localized from the chromium depleted layers. Following this it aids in the forming the protective layer."_

The outcome was I needed to fix the pacification issue myself at my expense, which I have now done.

I informed both the retailer and wholesaler on this thread, and at no stage have I request either party to respond in this thread. 

Now it seems that at least another one has commenced rusting.

QldKev


----------



## Ross

I've tried to keep out of this as it was really an issue for Keg king to reply to, but as he's chosen not to at this stage & with the usual suspects getting on their high horses I'll set the record straight from our perspective...

Kev had a faulty element that he purchased from us, Keg king happily replaced it with the latest model (which supposedly has the wiring issue sorted) without him having to return the broken unit.
The replacement unit unfortunately had some rust marks that Kev was obviously not happy with. They appear to have been caused by the unit not being passivated properly.
Keg King were not happy to replace this element for a second time without it being returned, as the rust could be easily fixed. Kev was offered the choice to return to me for replacement or Keg King. He did not want to do this as the cost of postage was greater than the cost of getting it passivated himself (which I believe he has now done). What inflamed the situation were Keg Kings comments inferring that Kev had damaged the unit & hence the standoff.

Keg king claims the latest model has all the previous issues fixed. With a 3 year warranty you can buy with confidence that it will be replaced if there's a problem. We've sold hundreds & I guess Keg King would have sold thousands. We've had approx a dozen returned & all have been replaced without question. Whether he should have recalled the early elements, is subject to opinion & I guess the jury is still out on that one.

Regards 

Ross
CraftBrewer

Edit: Kev replied while i was typing, but i'll leave my response here as it basically confirms Kevs post & adds a little more detail.


----------



## QldKev

Frothie said:


> I was under the impression that KK had been honoring the warranty for those that the wiring had failed. It was just QldKevs rusty element that they unfortunately refused to replace?
> 
> If so then why all the talk about ACCC and Office of Fair Trading? I think this is being blown out of proportion a little.
> 
> Sure enough there may be some quality issues that needs to be addressed. But when you pay $40 for a plug and play element its obvious your not getting something made by a be-spectacled german bloke wearing a white lab coat with Bosch embroidered on his pocket.



ref http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=906428 
posted same time as your post was, 240v powered items melting their wiring / housing does seem like a dangerous item to me. 


QldKev


----------



## QldKev

Ross said:


> I've tried to keep out of this as it was really an issue for Keg king to reply to, but as he's chosen not to at this stage & with the usual suspects getting on their high horses I'll set the record straight from our perspective...
> 
> Kev had a faulty element that he purchased from us, Keg king happily replaced it with the latest model (which supposedly has the wiring issue sorted) without him having to return the broken unit.
> The replacement unit unfortunately had some rust marks that Kev was obviously not happy with. They appear to have been caused by the unit not being passivated properly.
> Keg King were not happy to replace this element for a second time without it being returned, as the rust could be easily fixed. Kev was offered the choice to return to me for replacement or Keg King. He did not want to do this as the cost of postage was greater than the cost of getting it passivated himself (which I believe he has now done). What inflamed the situation were Keg Kings comments inferring that Kev had damaged the unit & hence the standoff.
> 
> Keg king claims the latest model has all the previous issues fixed. With a 3 year warranty you can buy with confidence that it will be replaced if there's a problem. We've sold hundreds & I guess Keg King would have sold thousands. We've had approx a dozen returned & all have been replaced without question. Whether he should have recalled the early elements, is subject to opinion & I guess the jury is still out on that one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ross
> CraftBrewer
> 
> Edit: Kev replied while i was typing, but i'll leave my response here as it basically confirms Kevs post & adds a little more detail.




I wish to clarify one item from this.

Initially you were seeking approval to replace it without me returning the defective item to help me out, but after Kee's feedback I do not recall it being offered to replace it if I returned it. You did offer to pacify it if I returned it to the shop, to which I declined as it would cost me more in post to get it there and back, than getting it done locally. 

QldKev


----------



## bonj

Thanks for the clarification Ross. 

I think the two issues (Kev's and the wiring) have been confused here, but I still think the wiring issue is bad enough to force a compulsory recall on the early units. You can't have people potentially getting hurt or worse.

There is no mention in Keg King sales literature about compliance.


----------



## Ross

QldKev said:


> I wish to clarify one item from this.
> 
> Initially you were seeking approval to replace it without me returning the defective item, but after Kee's feedback it was never offered to replace it if I returned it. You did offer to pacify it if I returned it to the shop, to which I declined as it would cost me more in post to get it there and back, than getting it done locally.
> 
> QldKev



Fair enough Kev, but I don't think he would question replacing if you returned, whether he directly offered to or not. Anyway, not really my place to comment on Kee's actions.

cheers Ross


----------



## QldKev

Ross said:


> Fair enough Kev, but I don't think he would question replacing if you returned, whether he directly offered to or not. Anyway, not really my place to comment on Kee's actions.
> 
> cheers Ross




Thanks Ross, maybe I needed that point spelt out. 

I will add, I have always had exceptional service from Craftbrewer and have made many purchases over they years and will continue to do so. 


QldKev


----------



## bigfridge

Ross said:


> The replacement unit unfortunately had some rust marks that Kev was obviously not happy with. They appear to have been caused by the unit not being passivated properly.
> Keg King were not happy to replace this element for a second time without it being returned, as the rust could be easily fixed. Kev was offered the choice to return to me for replacement or Keg King. He did not want to do this as the cost of postage was greater than the cost of getting it passivated himself (which I believe he has now done). What inflamed the situation were Keg Kings comments inferring that Kev had damaged the unit & hence the standoff.



Stainless isn't 'stainless' if it rusts ! It will taint any food product that it comes into contact with, produce haze in the finished beer (through iron pickup) and the rust will provide a site for further corrosion. Passivation only removes the material causing the rust but leaves the pits that Kev has reported, and these will accelerate the corrosion as well.

So it is really not just a cosmetic issue - rust affects the 'fitness for purpose' as much as the electrical insuation breakdown does.

As an importer of stainless steeel products, and a qualified Metallurgist, poor welding is the most common problem that I see with cheap chinese stainless steel products. It costs a lot more to have properly qualified and trained welding personnel, careful material preparation and correct filler metal selection. Something as simple as grease near the weld site can result in Chrome Carbide precipitation which leads to local corrosion as the chrome is no longer available to form the protective layer.

But Chinese manufactures do produce a wide range of quality products at an unbeleivably low price, but it is essential that the importer/wholesaler invests a little more in product design, inspection and warranty support.

HTH
Dave


----------



## QldKev

Bonj said:


> Thanks for the clarification Ross.
> 
> I think the two issues (Kev's and the wiring) have been confused here, but I still think the wiring issue is bad enough to force a compulsory recall on the early units. You can't have people potentially getting hurt or worse.
> 
> There is no mention in Keg King sales literature about compliance.




I've got both issues potentially now  

One element, the older model with wiring issues.
And the other element the new model that the food grade stainless has rust issues, and it's too soon to know if has the wiring issue.
(I initially purchased 2, and one was replaced)


I though all products sold within Australia had to comply?


QldKev


----------



## bonj

QldKev said:


> I thought all products sold within Australia had to comply?


So did I, which is why I raised it.


----------



## DU99

all electricial good's in australia have to meet a set of standards as per Standards Australia


----------



## Barley Belly

The bitter taste of poor quality lingers far longer than the initial sweetness of a cheap price.


----------



## QldKev

bigfridge said:


> Stainless isn't 'stainless' if it rusts ! It will taint any food product that it comes into contact with, produce haze in the finished beer (through iron pickup) and the rust will provide a site for further corrosion. Passivation only removes the material causing the rust but leaves the pits that Kev has reported, and these will accelerate the corrosion as well.
> 
> So it is really not just a cosmetic issue - rust affects the 'fitness for purpose' as much as the electrical insuation breakdown does.
> 
> As an importer of stainless steeel products, and a qualified Metallurgist, poor welding is the most common problem that I see with cheap chinese stainless steel products. It costs a lot more to have properly qualified and trained welding personnel, careful material preparation and correct filler metal selection. Something as simple as grease near the weld site can result in Chrome Carbide precipitation which leads to local corrosion as the chrome is no longer available to form the protective layer.
> 
> But Chinese manufactures do produce a wide range of quality products at an unbeleivably low price, but it is essential that the importer/wholesaler invests a little more in product design, inspection and warranty support.
> 
> HTH
> Dave



I agree, these units are sold as food grade stainless steel, which to me they do not seem to conform. With the ongoing electrical issues talked about on AHB of these units, in more than the one version, I wonder how they are getting out there if they do performing any level of QA prior to market. 



QldKev


----------



## sean_0

QldKev said:


> . . . With the ongoing electrical issues talked about on AHB of these units, in more than the one version, . . .



Just for the record, I have had the same frayed/melted insulation issue with both an older (2 years) and newer (10 months) version of this element.


----------



## Batz

Hell, what a read this thread has been.

They may have sold thousands of these but I bet they won't sell one more to an AHB member, you'll had to be mad to even consider it. I personally wouldn't touch one with a 10ft hop flower, especially if it wasn't insulated.

I thank you Kev for bringing a potentially dangerous item to our attention.

batz


----------



## pk.sax

If you thought someone on a compulsary minimum wage in changdou is doing a QA to Australian standards, you gotta have something wrong with your head. The guy would probably not even be able to read English and any knowledge of Australian quality standards, if any, would be second hand information.

Besides that, welcome to warranties on products posted long distances. I refuse to buy products over the Internet above a certain value unless they are backed by a brick and mortar business, the product has excellent quality and reviews and postage in case of a claim will be trivial (compact camera etc). There are certain things you just don't expect.

Besides that, I will clarify that I'm quite appaled that they continue to sell this electrical item with zero safety instructions and no certification whatsoever. Considering the above, those certifications are designed to protect and insure the consumer from exactly that sort of shit. If you burnt down your house with that element, I'd be very surprised if your insurance makes a payment to you without a hassle. Same with any modified electrics. I'd suggest we put use and cost in context, both while buying and commenting.


----------



## wombil

Hey Guys, Been a lot of talk on this topic.I don't use one of these things but was just wondering what is wrong with fitting a hot water system element to a pot.You can get them locally, they are not expensive and last for years.Just mt 2 cents worth.
I use an old electric copper boiler made in Brisbane about 40 years ago. Goes like a bewdy. Bugger China.
wombil.


----------



## Wimmig

practicalfool said:


> Besides that, I will clarify that I'm quite appaled that they continue to sell this electrical item with zero safety instructions and no certification whatsoever. Considering the above, those certifications are designed to protect and insure the consumer from exactly that sort of shit. If you burnt down your house with that element, I'd be very surprised if your insurance makes a payment to you without a hassle. Same with any modified electrics. I'd suggest we put use and cost in context, both while buying and commenting.



All it would take is 1 person to make an issue out of it with somebody like a federal safety body and i'm sure things would change quick.


----------



## Batz

wombil said:


> Hey Guys, Been a lot of talk on this topic.I don't use one of these things but was just wondering what is wrong with fitting a hot water system element to a pot.You can get them locally, they are not expensive and last for years.Just mt 2 cents worth.
> I use an old electric copper boiler made in Brisbane about 40 years ago. Goes like a bewdy. Bugger China.
> wombil.




That's what I had wombil, tough azz. Well it wasn't 40 years old, I bought it new but I bet it's still going stong hey Campbell?


----------



## QldKev

wombil said:


> Hey Guys, Been a lot of talk on this topic.I don't use one of these things but was just wondering what is wrong with fitting a hot water system element to a pot.You can get them locally, they are not expensive and last for years.Just mt 2 cents worth.
> I use an old electric copper boiler made in Brisbane about 40 years ago. Goes like a bewdy. Bugger China.
> wombil.




For a HLT or Hx no problems. Wished I had gone that way now. I was told not to use them into the kettle due to the wort sticking to the element, so I'm just playing around trying to find something good for the kettle. 

QldKev


----------



## QldKev

A few pics of the s/s element getting hooked up, as done by our electricians.

Dril the diecast box to suit the elemeent.
- When you have the pilot holes for the element put it against the pot and drill the pilot holes through.
- Enlarge the element holes to suit the element.
- Drill and mount the power cable using a cable gland





Drill the pot to suit the element, 




Mount up the box, using the element to hold it agains the pot. Use heat rated spaces on the sides of the dicast box to hold it flat against the curve of the pot. My electrician said you could use a bead of heat rated silicone down each side and allow it to set before disturbing it.




With the box mounted using the element you can commence wiring. 




Close up the diacast box and check out the neat looking setup




QldKev


----------



## black_labb

QldKev said:


> I've just ordered 3 from their website (I plan on running 2 on my kettle, and want one spare). I did notice the sizes are slightly smaller, and the pic is a stainless bulkhead. But with the $5 discount card from the ebay one, it cost $30.97 all up for 3 posted.
> 
> QldKev




Got them in the mail. Look pretty reasonable. I like your setup, seems simple as well. 

Just need to decide wether to get a 65-75L pot or go all out on a 90L+ one and grab another element... Do I really need to be albe to do triple batches???


----------



## Wolfy

QldKev said:


> Close up the diacast box and check out the neat looking setup


A very neat job that, but (unless your power-point is above the pot) why does the cord come out the top of the box? Wouldn't there be less stress on the cable if it was out the side?


----------



## QldKev

Wolfy said:


> A very neat job that, but (unless your power-point is above the pot) why does the cord come out the top of the box? Wouldn't there be less stress on the cable if it was out the side?




Yep, I drilled it and then thought exactly the same. The next 2 elements I will be mounting the supply cable out of the side of the box, will even make the wiring a bit neater rather than needing to be cable tied out of the way. 

QldKev


----------



## QldKev

black_labb said:


> Got them in the mail. Look pretty reasonable. I like your setup, seems simple as well.
> 
> Just need to decide wether to get a 65-75L pot or go all out on a 90L+ one and grab another element... Do I really need to be albe to do triple batches???



The key is how much beer is consumed at your place, and how often you want to brew. 

At my place we get through at least a keg a week. When I started brewing I was making single size batches, hence had to brew every week. The fun of that wore of quick. Then I tried a duel setup (ie 2 full BIAB systems side by side) and then upgraded one side to a double batch, so 3 cubes a run. Running the duel system meant I had to be more organised and brewing was no longer such a simple fun thing to do. Finally I tried a single vessel quad batch, which I found was fun again and awesome for catching up, but started to get a bit big for normal brewing, as I wasn't brewing as often as I wanted. My new 3V is designed around a triple, but will do a double, or if I do 2 batch sparges I can push a quad. I will have 3 elements in the 140L kettle So depending on the batch I can just run one or two, or even all three. 

QldKev


----------



## booargy

looks good kev. 
you might be interested to know the 2kw and 3kw bush spacings are the same. I am hoping their 4kw is aswell. 
3kw


----------



## QldKev

booargy said:


> looks good kev.
> you might be interested to know the 2kw and 3kw bush spacings are the same. I am hoping their 4kw is aswell.
> 3kw
> View attachment 54441




They look good, are they from the same supplier? I noticed on your ones the bushes are all s/s, on mine it had brass. 
Also I noticed on the 2kw, from ebay shows brass brass bushes, but their own website shows all s/s

If they are all the same sized mount it would make changing easy later, just get a new element and cable and bolt it in. 


QldKev


----------



## booargy

QldKev said:


> They look good, are they from the same supplier? I noticed on your ones the bushes are all s/s, on mine it had brass.
> Also I noticed on the 2kw, from ebay shows brass brass bushes, but their own website shows all s/s



Got them from the same mob. The 3kw are all stainless and 2kw have brass bushes. I reckon they're good value.


----------



## black_labb

QldKev said:


> The key is how much beer is consumed at your place, and how often you want to brew.
> 
> At my place we get through at least a keg a week. When I started brewing I was making single size batches, hence had to brew every week. The fun of that wore of quick. Then I tried a duel setup (ie 2 full BIAB systems side by side) and then upgraded one side to a double batch, so 3 cubes a run. Running the duel system meant I had to be more organised and brewing was no longer such a simple fun thing to do. Finally I tried a single vessel quad batch, which I found was fun again and awesome for catching up, but started to get a bit big for normal brewing, as I wasn't brewing as often as I wanted. My new 3V is designed around a triple, but will do a double, or if I do 2 batch sparges I can push a quad. I will have 3 elements in the 140L kettle So depending on the batch I can just run one or two, or even all three.
> 
> QldKev




The issue I have is I am looking at moving into a sharehouse that will most likely be with some friends in the next few months. I can imagine wanting to get some more brewing output in that situation. 

Currently I'm struggling to just get 40L batches with a 50L keggle and some pots on the stove for the extra. I was going to put another keggle together to act as a HLT and to do some of the boiling once the last sparge is in the mash tun, but I decided to make things simpler so that brewing was less work instead of working too much on brew days to get more volume out. 

Currently I'm putting together a 20ish L 1V recirculating system but I'm planning on doing a bigger brother of it that runs off the same controller but with a bigger volume and pump.


edit: To bring it back on topic I have used one of the earlier models for quite a number of brews in the Keggle mentioned above and will be used in the 1v system I'm putting together as well. No Issues so far.


----------



## QldKev

I fired up the new element for it's first batch yesterday.

This is the element I'm referring too
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=905407 

At the moment I only have one element in the kettle, for the size of the boil I will be using 3 when they arrive.

As soon as the first runnings covered the element I hit the power and let it commence heating it up the wort while I sparged. With just the one element in so much wort, as expected, it could not come to the boil, but was definitely heating the wort. Once I finished the batch sparge into the kettle I fired up the NASA for the main boil. I had to drop the NASA back quite a bit to hold a decent boil. At the end of the 60min boil I turned off the LPG, and the electric element managed to hold a small boil until I turned it off. I suspect with decent insulation and just 2 elements I may have enough potential to hold a decent boil. After draining I noticed there was a bit of white build up on the element. Once cool it wiped away easily with the sponge and the element looks new. QldKev is happy. B) 

QldKev


----------



## NickB

Great to hear Kev!

I'm still persisting with my KK elements until they fail.

I did come up with some sort of a 'solution' to the fraying/melting cables problem. Picture below (cable ties around the black sheath so that the cable doesn't 'sag' at the entry point, hopefully preventing the insulation melting and the copper cables being exposed....maybe...)




Seems to work OK, but still getting a 'melting plastic' smell from the HLT element when it fires up, so sure this will fail sooner rather than later. 2x Kettle elements (pictured) going great to be honest, and they are on for a 90 min boil constantly.

Cheers


----------



## QldKev

NickB said:


> Great to hear Kev!
> 
> I'm still persisting with my KK elements until they fail.
> 
> I did come up with some sort of a 'solution' to the fraying/melting cables problem. Picture below (cable ties around the black sheath so that the cable doesn't 'sag' at the entry point, hopefully preventing the insulation melting and the copper cables being exposed....maybe...)
> 
> View attachment 54533
> 
> 
> Seems to work OK, but still getting a 'melting plastic' smell from the HLT element when it fires up, so sure this will fail sooner rather than later. 2x Kettle elements (pictured) going great to be honest, and they are on for a 90 min boil constantly.
> 
> Cheers



Good idea with the plastic ties. 

I agree, If I had elements already in the kettle I wouldn't be changing them. I'm leaving the KK elements in my HLT until they fail. 

The white plastic on that left one looks like it's been getting pretty hot. 

QldKev


----------



## NickB

Yeah, did melt first brew somewhat before I thought of the cable ties. 

Also had a small (and I mean small - 1cm puddle in 90 mins) leak through the wall of the pot in yesterday's brew, hence the colour. Once wiped off (after the photo, of course!), was back to white, but there is a small gap there. Best keep an eye on it for now.

If it does fail, have plans to solder 4mm2 cable to the element, then house in a small plastic adaptable box, with a IEC male socket to take the standard IEC/kettle cable.

Cheers


----------



## TidalPete

If I hadn't the 33mm hole (tailor-made for the now defunct Keg King element) in the side of my new HLT I'd be giving serious thought to Kev's latest (two holes required) ss elements. 
I know I could get myself a one inch screw-in type element that would need a slightly larger hole but am taking the easy (& cheaper for me) way out & upgrading (with a blatent plug for CraftBrewer service  ) to a plug & play 2000w copper element which although not as powerful as a 2400w, will hopefully last for many years in my HLT & save me the hassle of getting an enclosure, wiring up, etc.
Please note that this is for the HLT & not for use in the kettle which is gas-fired.  

TP


----------



## Kingbrownbrewing

NickB said:


> Yeah, did melt first brew somewhat before I thought of the cable ties.
> 
> Also had a small (and I mean small - 1cm puddle in 90 mins) leak through the wall of the pot in yesterday's brew, hence the colour. Once wiped off (after the photo, of course!), was back to white, but there is a small gap there. Best keep an eye on it for now.
> 
> If it does fail, have plans to solder 4mm2 cable to the element, then house in a small plastic adaptable box, with a IEC male socket to take the standard IEC/kettle cable.
> 
> Cheers


Hey nick old buddy old pal, if that soldering works, can u hook me up with something similar?


----------



## NickB

2000w Vs 2400w shouldn't make a massive difference in a HLT setup, but for a kettle, you're losing approx. 17% of your heating power, so would perhaps (depending on insulation) make a big difference to boil vigour and boil off rates.

HLT wise, no probs though Pete. Should have let me know you were looking for something. I have several bolt-on 2200-2400w elements at home...

Cheers


----------



## TidalPete

King Brown Brewing said:


> Hey nick old buddy old pal, if that soldering works, can u hook me up with something similar?



When I found that my Keg King element was leaking even with the supplied silicone washer I replaced the silicone washer with one of those orange heat-proof "O" rings that Ross sells for sealing off ss 1\2" all-thread in kettles, etc. It's a very tight fit but works well.

TP

Just saw your post Nick ---- Buggerit! :beer:


----------



## NickB

Dan - sure, but I'm waiting until element failure to even try.

Pete - Bugger indeed! BUT, with the elements I have, you would need to drill bolt holes in your vessel. They're HWS elements. Thanks for the hint on the CB O-Rings though. Will try that as the silicone washer I'm using is distorting when screwed on tightly.

Cheers


----------



## TidalPete

NickB said:


> Dan - sure, but I'm waiting until element failure to even try.
> 
> Pete - Bugger indeed! BUT, with the elements I have, you would need to drill bolt holes in your vessel. They're HWS elements. Thanks for the hint on the CB O-Rings though. Will try that as the silicone washer I'm using is distorting when screwed on tightly.
> 
> Cheers



Nickster,
Well aware that I'd need to drill more holes for a bolt-in element but would have been willing if I'd found out in time. :icon_cheers:

Re the "O" ring, you won't be sorry.  

TP

PS --- Unless you've grossly over-enlarged your hole of course? h34r:


----------



## NickB

I'm not from up 'Your Way' Pete, so my hole is regular, normal size.



Cheers


----------



## QldKev

Just remember to use lube before trying to insert it into the hole.


----------



## TidalPete

NickB said:


> I'm not from up 'Your Way' Pete, so my hole is regular, normal size.
> 
> Cheers



But, but, but, I don't live in Seedneey! h34r: :lol: 

TP


----------



## NickB

Muahahaha.... Where's the 'Like' button


----------



## TidalPete

NickB said:


> Muahahaha.... Where's the 'Like' button



Not too many responses as yet Nickster. :lol: 


TP


----------



## QldKev

I got another one mounted ready for tomorrows brew day. I'm going to try with just 2 of the elements.

The 2kw from ebay had brass bushes, and drew 1900w. The ones I ordered direct from the site have s/s bushes and draw 2200w. Both are very close in the sizes, and mount up the same. 







QldKev


----------



## pk.sax

Mine ran dry for 5-10 minutes by accident, surface is all discoloured but nothing seems melted on the outside.
Is it screwed? Doesn't seem to work, checked cable on other stuff and its OK.


----------



## HBHB

practicalfool said:


> Mine ran dry for 5-10 minutes by accident, surface is all discoloured but nothing seems melted on the outside.
> Is it screwed? Doesn't seem to work, checked cable on other stuff and its OK.



I'd say if it doesn't work, then it's probably cooked and dead.


----------



## QldKev

practicalfool said:


> Mine ran dry for 5-10 minutes by accident, surface is all discoloured but nothing seems melted on the outside.
> Is it screwed? Doesn't seem to work, checked cable on other stuff and its OK.




If it doesn't work I would say it's screwed.. Was it a Keg King or the new U-bend. If it's a u-bend won't be too bad took hook up another and keep going. 

QldKev


----------



## pk.sax

I was afraid its that. Well, its the Keg King one. If I do get the U-Bend type, I'll have to keep the old busted one in there to keep the damn hole plugged


----------



## IainMcLean

practicalfool said:


> I was afraid its that. Well, its the Keg King one. If I do get the U-Bend type, I'll have to keep the old busted one in there to keep the damn hole plugged




Search back a few posts, for Frothie's link to Geordie in Cheltenham. They sell a SS stop end that will fit your hole. Buy a nut for it, and then put a couple of tiny holes in it for a u-bend one. Job done. I'm potentially facing the same thing when my Keg King element gives up...

When he was here last week we were discussing it and both figured it'd work well... wrap some ptfe tape around it as a 'washer' and you're set if the hole in your keggle is a bit oversized.


----------



## pk.sax

hmnn... 31mm plug for 10 bux... this might be something!


----------



## kjparker

Just a heads up. I removed the element I had in my kettle, no problems with it, but given the reported issues, I figure I would look at other options.

I was working out how I was going to fill the hole, and as I was going to fit a side mounted ball valve and pickup tube, I started playing with the fittings I had laying around. If you don't mind brass, and I don't, a brass garden tap adaptor for reducing from a 1" tap to 3/4" fitted through the hole perfectly. I placed this through the hole from the inside, screwed a 1" ball valve onto it, with some silicone gaskets, and the deed was done. Brass elbow with pickup tube on the inside took care of the pickup.

If there is any interest I will post some pics.


----------



## pk.sax

I've found some 1.25" NPT SS reducing bushes on eBay for ~ $6 posted, thinking of going for the 1/2" reduction and also buying a 1/2" thermowell to go in there. That should fix things up nicely.

The other alternative is to source an alternative 1.25" element locally, waiting to hear back from a friend who knows a place. Depending on cost etc, will have to make a decision.

I was looking at what size the threads for the U shape elements are and a little worried about what it I need to plug that hole in the future! 1.25" is a more common size at least...

Bah, decisions.


----------



## Acasta

clueless said:


> Just p[oking around on Uxcell, found this one which looks intersting as well! Could be good for a keggle setup
> 
> http://www.uxcell.com/stainless-steel-elec...w-p-193546.html



These look like they'd be great in a converted keg HLT! Has anyone tried them? Any ideas on an install?


----------



## b0neski

I have been planning on reporting these devices to the Office of the Regulator / ACMA for some time now because I reckon they're flat out dangerous. As you'll see in the email exchange with Kee below, I think the cable they are using (and the white plastic) is not of high enough temperature rating. I have removed all that rubbish and installed a junction box which connects to high temperature silicone cable on my HLT and gone for gas on the kettle because I was so disappointed with the things.

Sounds like they're still running the same cable hence the problem remains - you be the judge (read from the bottom):

*From:* boneski 
*Sent:* Saturday, 14 January 2012 8:22 AM
*To:* keedoery
*Cc:* ross
*Subject:* RE: 2200W element explosion



Hi Kee,

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying here. It was pretty clear the insulation broke down inside of the cord due to excessive temperature - not at the point where the cable was terminated (joins the element wires) because the faliure happened outside of the element. Furthermore, I would venture to say that this heat did indeed transmit through the wire from the element. The difference between these elements and a kettle is that the IEC power connector is not attached directly to the element which affords some thermal isolation, hence they can use a standard domestic temperature range PVC cable. But sure, lets say the insulation is all good and operating within it's acceptable temperature range on these elements (50 degrees tops right?) and for whatever reason something goes wrong and all of a sudden you've got another 30 degrees in the equation and you're up to 80 degrees and things start to melt. I just think you're cutting it a bit fine running a cable so close to it's maximum operating temperature - I certainly would not do this in the industrial electrical environment I work in because it would be asking for trouble. 180 degree C silicone cable is an obvious choice. 

All this aside, it sounds like there have been some improvements made to these newer elements which is good because I am no longer willing to use the remaining two working ones for fear of personal injury / my house burning down.

I'll send the other two elements back to Ross if you could send me three new ones as soon as possible.

Thanks.

​From: keedoery
To: boneski
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:37:23 +1100

Hello,

If you send the other 2 units back to us we have no problem replacing all 3 of them. Normally returns would be handles by the retailer (in your case Craft Brewer). 

The cords on the new elements are a heat resistant PVC with a fire retardant inside the encasing. The issue you had with the previous element is not due to the temperature resistance of the cord. Under normal operation the back of the element where the cord is mounted will not exceed 50C. The cord on the elements has a temperature rating of 72.5C. Beyond this temperature you would have to go to 180C in order for the PVC to start breaking down. This is the reason that various water heating devices (such as kettles) use the same lead.

Silicon leads are a common choice where the cord can come into direct contact with the heat source which is not possible if the heated part of the element is mounted to a vessel and submersed in liquid of some sort.

The issue that you had with the element in the past was not the cord, it was due to the terminals where the cord was joined to the back of the element. This is the place where the burn out has most likely occurred.

Please let me know if you are going to send the other two elements back or if you would just like us to send this single replacement unit to you.

Regards,

Kee Dry
_Proprietor
_*Keg King Keg Dispense Specialists
*http://www.kegking.com.au

*From:* boneski 
*Sent:* Friday, 13 January 2012 3:36 PM
*To:* keedoey
*Subject:* RE: 2200W element explosion



Kee, thanks for responding and clafifying my questions on approvals etc.

Would I be right in saying that the cable has been upgraded to a silicone insulated, high temperature type?

As I mentioned in my original email, I have three of these elements in total and I think the other two are about to let go in the same way.
Are you able to replace all three?

Thanks.

​From: keedoery
To: boneski
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:15:23 +1100

Hello, 

Sorry about that I though I had already replied to your email.

As I have discussed with Ross from craft brewer, we did get a number of elements that we received last year at approximately start of September. This batch of elements we saw a unusual rate of returns for exactly the same reason as you have described.

We have since resolved the issue and have more stock of much more reliable elements.

If you send me your street postal address I would be more than happy to send you a replacement in the mail.

With regards to the approvals, this item is classified as a component. Not an appliance. The Australian standard approvals is definitely required on all APPIANCES that use submersible elements. As this is a component it does not classify as an appliance and can only be called an appliance once installed to a vessel, it is not possible to get it approved as an appliance the way that it is sold. With that said, once you have finished installing the element into your boiler, this component then is classified as a boiler which is an appliance. Behind closed doors in the privacy of your own home you can use any electrical device you make at home with out approvals, however if you wanted to then sell your home made boiler second hand you would have to make sure it was made to suit AS60335.2.15 which is the Australian standards for Appliances for Heating Liquids.

Kee Dry
_Proprietor
_*Keg King Keg Dispense Specialists
*http://www.kegking.com.au 

*From:* boneski
*Sent:* Friday, 13 January 2012 7:14 AM
*To:* keedoery
*Cc:* ross
*Subject:* FW: 2200W element explosion
*Importance:* High



Hi there,

I know you only returned to business on Tuesday, but can you please respond to this?
I'm looking to resolve this issue so I can return back to brewing ASAP.

Thanks,
boneski


​From: boneski
To: keedoery
CC: ross
Subject: 2200W element explosion
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:19:31 +1030


Mr. Doery,


I write to you on this matter after speaking with Ross at Craft Brewer, who recommended I communicate with your company directly.

On 9 November 2011 I purchased 3 of your 2200W elements from Craft Brewer.
These elements are used as one in my HLT and two in my kettle.
On initial receipt of these goods I noticed that the cable coming out of these elements seemed to be somewhat overly flexy, particularly at the point where the white insulation from the element meets the black cable. This situation had degraded over the last few brews even though particular care had been taken with this in mind.
During my 3rd AGB boil today in which I was using one element only on the kettle, I heard a loud "bang" about 1.5 mins before the end of the boil. 
Inspection revealed there was a large blackened hole that had been blasted through the main outer cable sheath with plenty of carbon produced. See attached pictures.

I looked up the specification stamped on the cable (60227 IEC 53 - document also attached) and the part that stood out immediately was the maximum working temperature of the cable - 70 degrees centigrade. This is a general purpose domestic cable which is clearly unsuitable for this service environment and I can say with certainty that the manufacturers incorrect cable selection has caused this faliure.

Ross indicated that Keg King have had some ongoing problems with these elements, especially related to the cords. Using a silicone based cable with an appropriate temperature rating and revising the cable exit arrangement would go a long way to solving these problems. Either way, because of this cable issue, I've got one element that's blown up and another two that are definitely unreliable. 

As an electrical tradesman I also deem these elements to be unsafe and as such, I highly doubt that this electrical apparatus complies with the AS/NZ electrical appliance safety standard and they most defintely do not comply with the marking / labelling practices contained within this standard. Further to this, I have also noticed that these elements lack EMC type approval labelling, or C-TICK approval as it's more commonly known and as far as I'm aware, all electrical appliances sold in Australia legally require this approval.

Obviously I'm looking for some sort of resoution here as I can't brew without heating, and without these elements I've just got some expensive stainless pots with 32mm holes drilled in them.
Ideed I am also seeking clarification on the current status of this products' AS/NZ electrical appliance safety certification and C-TICK type approval. I am genuinely concerned for the safety of others using these elements in the worthy and usually enjoyable pursuit of making beer.

I will be uncontactable during office hours on the mobile for the next two weeks starting tomorrow (Tuesday 3 January) so email is best.

Thanks in advance for your prompt reply.

Sincerely,
boneski


----------



## Maheel

Maheel said:


> i bought a couple of 1" bsp screw in's and they arrived today
> 
> $26.60 +GST for 1 X 2400watt (bottom one)
> $30.00 +GST for 1 X 3600 (i have a 15 amp line)
> 
> got them from here http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.au/
> if you call in the mornings (she leaves after lunch) and ask for Leanne you will get this price if you ask nicely
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She provided excellent service as well, both phone and internet response
> 
> yet to test them but will over the weekend



just thought i would re-post this into this thread and show the boil (it had just started) with the 2400w from today 

i am pretty happy with them but do have one KK element in service in another vessel (till it pops )


----------



## pk.sax

Maheel, Do these screw straight in to the hole?

http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.a...P-SCREW-IN-1888


----------



## troopa

Im thinking ive gotta go back to this type of element
I do have a 3600W one but changed it out for a KK element because i was starting get concerned about melting things even with the power cranked back 
And now the KK element is getting black crap on it after every brew

Disclaimer:
Last house i owned had 15amp, current place i rent and it only has 10 amp GPOs thats y i changed it out


----------



## Wolfy

b0neski said:


> Sounds like they're still running the same cable hence the problem remains - you be the judge (read from the bottom):


Re-posting or even forwarding on private emails - like you have done - is illegal in this country (go Australian laws).


----------



## QldKev

b0neski said:


> I have been planning on reporting these devices to the Office of the Regulator / ACMA for some time now because I reckon they're flat out dangerous. As you'll see in the email exchange with Kee below, I think the cable they are using (and the white plastic) is not of high enough temperature rating. I have removed all that rubbish and installed a junction box which connects to high temperature silicone cable on my HLT and gone for gas on the kettle because I was so disappointed with the things.
> 
> Sounds like they're still running the same cable hence the problem remains - you be the judge (read from the bottom):
> 
> <<snip>>




Mate, I honestly hope someone with some direct evidence on these elements burning out does report them. With the amount that have been reported as failing leaving 240v wiring exposed/shorting out on here, in my opinion these are a safety concern. I think it would be great if some authority could check them out and let us know if we are safe to keep using them, or if there should be a product recall of them before someone gets hurt or possibly killed.

QldKev


----------



## Maheel

practicalfool said:


> Maheel, Do these screw straight in to the hole?
> 
> http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.a...P-SCREW-IN-1888



i use a backing nut mate

you can see it in today's brew :lol:


----------



## bigfridge

b0neski said:


> ... If you send the other 2 units back to us we have no problem replacing all 3 of them. Normally returns would be handles by the retailer ...



Sounds very fair to me - you have had only 1 failure, but they are willing to replace all 3. All that you have to do is send them your address and your new elements will turn up.

Good way to allow the wholesaler to prove to you that their new design has resolved the problem.


----------



## DJR

Just my $0.02c

I have a new revision of the element that i used on the weekend - it was only just warm to the touch at the old cable junction that used to be quite warm and seemed to not have the excessive heat build up that I had with a previous revision. Happy so far and with a 3 year warranty for a $50 unit I think it is good that they have solved some of the issues with the previous revisions. The importer was quite responsive once I identified an issue with my unit which thankfully gave me plenty of warning before I had any larger safety issue.


----------



## b0neski

Well if posting those emails was illegal then mods should remove the post.

All I was trying to highlight here was the reason why these things have been going "bang".

That is all.


----------



## glenwal

It is only illegal if the email contains either personal information or copy right material.


----------



## bonj

Glen W said:


> It is only illegal if the email contains either personal information or copy right material.


Incorrect. All material in an email (or anything else, including these posts) is copyright of the author. Copyright is civil law, with only criminal ramifications for things like piracy.

In this case, the copyright owner (author) would have to defend the copyright themselves. If you fail to defend your copyright, you lose ownership of the work.


----------



## bigfridge

Glen W said:


> It is only illegal if the email contains either personal information or copy right material.



Sorry, but I don't beleive that is correct.

email is a written work that once created is copyright protected by the author, hence you cannot post in a public forum any e-mail sent to you privately without breaching the copyright laws. You cannot post private e-mails without the authors specific permission to do so.

Just because an email was sent to you as a private communication does not mean you then own it and can do with it what you like. Additionally, once the email has been posted to a public forum, it does not make it available for reposting, copying, or any other use. The author still retains the copyright and hence you need the express and written consent of the author.


----------



## Maltyfingers

i've had 2 of the previous elements replaced under warranty.

the new one has just split the cord. now there is an exposed wire. 

Please stop selling these things.


----------



## bum

Bonj said:


> All material in an email (or anything else, including these posts) is copyright of the author.


The author is clearly attributed in the "offending" posts - which is where a greater ethical issue arises, IMO, but that is by the by.


----------



## seemax

Got my element replaced today at KK

I noticed the cord was floppy on the last brew, took a closer look and the insulation is frayed but the wires seem ok (for now!).





The new looks exactly the same...




Given it's running 10A for long periods, the problem could mostly be fixed by larger wire.

Think I might get myself a few of the uxcell elements.


----------



## Wolfy

seemax said:


> I noticed the cord was floppy on the last brew, took a closer look and the insulation is frayed but the wires seem ok (for now!).


I noticed with two of mine (new last month, still unused) that the the outer black insulation comes easily out of the white plug just by flexing it. With the new one(s) it's not so much fraying of the insulation but that it was not long enough or held securely on the inside of the plug. I had one replaced and wrapped some duct-tape around the others so that they can't flex and put stress on the outer-insulation at that point.


----------



## b0neski

The cord is 1.5mm2 cross sectional area which is 100% suitable for 10 amp continuous..... well closer to 9 amp at 2200 watts.

You'll find that inside that white thing is filled with epoxy resin (Arildite) which is only good for about 60 degrees before it starts deforming. So once the glue gets too hot and the insulation gets to hot it all starts to shimmy apart, then eventually when the internal insulation breaks down, you get something like this:


----------



## Filby

Its interesting that my two elemtens are 2.5mm2 conductors and its not the wire that's failing but the brass crimp connectors used to connect the copper conductors to the element wires. The crimps are either not rated to 2200w, the crimp section is too small creating a hot spot or there is mild arcing occurring in the crimp. Both elements have failed at the crimp, not the cable itself

Got a replacement element from KK a few weeks but havent had a chance to run it yet. If this issue is solve these elements would be the dogs danglies!


Fil


----------



## Jay Cee

Not that I'm upgrading my kettle anytime soon, but this was a timely thread. Had planned to drop about $1200 on a keg system and other odds & sods from Keg King later in the year, but based on the comments in this thread, I'll be looking elsewhere for the gear. Probably local, so I can deal face to face should any warranty issues arise.


----------



## kjparker

Jay Cee said:


> Not that I'm upgrading my kettle anytime soon, but this was a timely thread. Had planned to drop about $1200 on a keg system and other odds & sods from Keg King later in the year, but based on the comments in this thread, I'll be looking elsewhere for the gear. Probably local, so I can deal face to face should any warranty issues arise.


I think you'll find that as a whole people have no problem with keg king's products.

These elements are really the main product people have issue with


----------



## QldKev

Often, you just get what you pay for, cheap products.


----------



## spog

+1 cheers...... spog........quote name='b0neski' date='Jun 4 2012, 08:54 PM' post='920484']
Well if posting those emails was illegal then mods should remove the post.

All I was trying to highlight here was the reason why these things have been going "bang".

That is all.
[/quote]


----------



## Wolfman

clueless said:


> I think you'll find that as a whole people have no problem with keg king's products.
> 
> These elements are really the main product people have issue with




I've had a hell of a time with the grain mill I bought from them!


----------



## QldKev

b0neski said:


> The cord is 1.5mm2 cross sectional area which is 100% suitable for 10 amp continuous..... well closer to 9 amp at 2200 watts.
> 
> You'll find that inside that white thing is filled with epoxy resin (Arildite) which is only good for about 60 degrees before it starts deforming. So once the glue gets too hot and the insulation gets to hot it all starts to shimmy apart, then eventually when the internal insulation breaks down, you get something like this:




Ouch, that looks scary. 240v waiting to kill you.

QldKev


----------



## Mountain Steve

Hi all, 
Just registered today and sorry to introduce myself in such a way but I have been a keen reader of the forums and have enjoyed much helpful and collegial info from you guys.

I have had a long read of this thread because I too am now on my 2nd burn-out of a KK heater. 

About a month ago my first unit's wiring melted. I phoned KK and mentioned my problem (same wiring burn as mentioned previously) they said to post back my burnt one for replacement and that there had been some issues with the terminals in a batch sold earlier in the year (They were very understanding and happy to help) ... I posted mine and after a week later still no reply. I emailed and their reply was that my return had not arrived. I emailed back my disappointment and the next day Kee emailed saying a replacement would be sent regardless and that my return was probably held up in the post (I did send it standard parcel, like Kev, I didn't want to invest too much in what was a dud!) I was impressed with Kee's service.

The new unit arrived in a couple of days and 2 runs went very well. I had fortified the wire with insulation tape to avoid the sagging issues described in this thread... Today the new unit shit itself in a major way with smoke and melting stuff everywhere! I consider myself pretty lucky... from reading here it sounds as though it could have been worse.

I'll be phoning Kee tomorrow to express my disappointment (again) and see what he has to say. Like many in this thread, I'm happy with KK's service and most products... I just wish this particular one was better!!!

Just thought I'd share my experience. Here's hoping for 3rd time lucky!

Cheers
Steve

PS: Thanks for all the alternate element ideas! Keep up the good work.


----------



## Logman

Is this problem only with the one where the cord is part of the element? I notice there is a newer model that has no cord attached to the element, but rather a socket and a computer style cord plugs into the back of them. Has anyone had an issue with the new one?


----------



## Filby

The units with the female plug and no cord are older ones that were replaced with the corded ones.

Fil


----------



## Parks

Filby said:


> The units with the female plug and no cord are older ones that were replaced with the corded ones.
> 
> Fil


Does anyone know why they did this? It makes no logical sense to me.

I would think all the overheating issues would go away, unless you need to have a special heat rated cord (too much risk of people simply using a computer cord with no real heat requirement).


----------



## NickB

I have three of these elements, none have blown as yet. One melted slightly before I secured the wiring as per a previous post of mine. No issues so far, but still a slight plastic smell.

Kettle/IEC cords really aren't designed to be run at the full 10A for more than a few mins at a time, as they are something tinly like .75mm2 wiring. The problem with the cords attached to these elements is the same - the insulation breaks down after extended periods of heating, causing a short inside the cord or the contacts of the element.

I have plans to hard-wire mine in a more suitable gauge wire when I get around to it. Will post pics in a how-to when I do.

Cheers


----------



## Logman

NickB said:


> I have plans to hard-wire mine in a more suitable gauge wire when I get around to it. Will post pics in a how-to when I do.


That would be great, cool. Problem for me is that I don't hang around in the garage for most of the two hours my kettle runs. I rigged up a solution to take the weight of the cord after a warranty replacement, but would rather have it wired properly or buy something else if need be...


----------



## NickB

Well just to refresh, this is what I did to mine...






Cheers


----------



## Logman

Here's my effort, split a piece of PVC and supported the cord with ties off's like yours. I think I went the long way <_<


----------



## Mountain Steve

Hi All,
Phoned Keg King and spoke to Ari. He completely understood my problem (burnt out wires) and immediately offered to post out a second replacement. No return required on the faulty one. He also mentioned they would have a new batch of (better?) elements in a month or so... I added that I, like many others, would happily pay more $ for a more reliable unit in the future.
I sent him a photo to show the problem: 

He emailed back about an hour later saying he would post one from current stock today.
Third time lucky?
Cheers
Steve


----------



## JaseH

Personally, I dont know why they persevere with the pre-wired cord? Although I've been happy with mine so far, I'd be more comfortable with it if it just came with terminals to attach your own wiring to the unit, like most of the other options available. They could then probably sell it a few bucks cheaper making it more attractive over the other options, eliminate the wiring problems and make it more serviceable in the process(eg. easy to replace/inspect the wiring).

I realise they are probably trying to target the plug'n'play market but it doesnt appear to be working out too well. Maybe provide a "wiring kit" as an optional extra?


----------



## Maheel

Frothie said:


> Personally, I dont know why they persevere with the pre-wired cord? Although I've been happy with mine so far, I'd be more comfortable with it if it just came with terminals to attach your own wiring to the unit, like most of the other options available. They could then probably sell it a few bucks cheaper making it more attractive over the other options, eliminate the wiring problems and make it more serviceable in the process(eg. easy to replace/inspect the wiring).
> 
> I realise they are probably trying to target the plug'n'play market but it doesnt appear to be working out too well. Maybe provide a "wiring kit" as an optional extra?



if your going a wire your own your better off with a 1" screw in type i reckon from other sources


----------



## Logman

Maheel said:


> if your going a wire your own your better off with a 1" screw in type i reckon from other sources


Hey Maheel,
I saw your picture a couple of pages yesterday, getting interested in one of these for my HLT. Did the element come with the backing nut? Did you seal it with a silicone o-ring and is that supplied?


----------



## Sainter1775

Bugger i wish i had read this thread prior to buying the KK element for Craftbrewer....Epic Fail. Question why would Craftbrewer sell these units if so much has been written on them....as a rule I find that craftbrewer allways sells quality kit with good advice?


-> insert / bang head against desk

:blink:


----------



## Logman

The other PITA is the 32mm hole already drilled into the HLT, most of the better quality elements seem to require a smaller hole - any 32mm or larger alternatives been found yet?


----------



## kjparker

Logman said:


> The other PITA is the 32mm hole already drilled into the HLT, most of the better quality elements seem to require a smaller hole - any 32mm or larger alternatives been found yet?


I think you'll find that a 1"bsp element will go in the hole. Just need to get a back nut for it


----------



## Logman

clueless said:


> I think you'll find that a 1"bsp element will go in the hole. Just need to get a back nut for it


Oh ok thanks, got it into my head they needed a smaller hole.


----------



## joshuahardie

Has anyone had experience with these elements?

http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/heating-element-2400w


----------



## QldKev

joshuahardie said:


> Has anyone had experience with these elements?
> 
> http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/heating-element-2400w




Hard to tell sizing from the pic, but I think the heat density may be too high for wort, would be ok for HLT or HERMS but for water there are plenty of cheaper solutions.

QldKev


----------



## joshuahardie

Kev, 

You might have to explain the heat density thing to me.

My over the side element blew up, in much the same way these KK ones are. So I am looking for a plug and play replacement, and I am not too confident wiring up some of the units in this thread.

Cheers
Josh


----------



## QldKev

joshuahardie said:


> Kev,
> 
> You might have to explain the heat density thing to me.
> 
> My over the side element blew up, in much the same way these KK ones are. So I am looking for a plug and play replacement, and I am not too confident wiring up some of the units in this thread.
> 
> Cheers
> Josh




Heat density is how much heating the element has per a given surface area, ie. how much power against the size of the element. So we can use watts per mm2 or watts per m2. If you look at a typical kettle element for the power output there is a very small contact area. This is ok for water, but not for our wort. The smaller the are per watt, the more heat output for the area hence it gets hotter and scorches the wort onto itself, either caramelising the wort or burning itself out. 

That element has 2400w but the contact area of the element seems small, but if we had with some sizes it may actually be a good size element. 

2kw element discussed above has a heat density as follows.
Approx 600mm long overall.
Tube is 10mm diameter 

So to get circ we need Pi D = 3.14 x 10 = 31.4mm
31.4mm x 600mm = 18840mm2

so for the 2kw, we have 2000 / 18840 = 0.1w per mm2, which is towards the maximum you want

If you get the sizing of the element part itself and work out the mm2, if it totals the same or more mm2 than 18,840 you should be ok.


----------



## joshuahardie

Mate, 
That is an awesome response. Makes perfect sense.

I owe you a beer for that one.


----------



## thebigwilk

QldKev said:


> I know the keg king elements had lots of issues originally. I'm only worried about the newer type with the length of cable from the base before you plug in the cord.
> 
> I purchased two, one died due to water leaking into it on it's first use. Took a while but I did get a replacement sent out. The replacement (along with the other good one) has only been used in my HLT. The replacement one after just 3 brews is rusting! The other element shows no signs of rust, as you would expect from a s/s element. To me it looks like someone has hit it with a buffer or emery that has been used on mild steel. I sent Craftbrewer an email to see if this is covered under warranty on the 5 April, but no response yet.
> 
> View attachment 53658
> 
> 
> View attachment 53659
> 
> 
> 
> Are other people still having issues or have I just been unlucky?
> 
> 
> QldKev


No rust on my (dodgy smoking connector) element i dont think it had a chance its only a few months old, but i will say one of my barbed threaded fitting is rusting like a bastard its supposed to be 304 stainless? quality control must have had the day off in china when they slipped this ones through the door.


----------



## QldKev

Taken from here. It looks like a continuing saga for the elements burning out including the new version. 



thebigwilk said:


> Just letting everybody know that the new shipment of keg king elements are still as freaking dangerous as the last. I have read a lot of discussions about them going bang! and she no go no more , but i was assured that this new shipment of elements were safe . Take it from me dont risk it , i have used mine five times now on the sixth use white smoke started to linger out of the connector where the lead goes into the back of the element it smelt like burning rubber so i turned it off real fast like . Lucky i had a different brand of element sitting around for a rainy day well guess what keg king its pissing down and im pissed right off!!


----------



## NickB

Ok, so brewed yesterday, heated my mash and sparge water (93L total) no problems, but noticed a slight plastic smell. 

Left cleanup until today (lazy me) and just started heating my PBW water and BANG. Smoke, noise. Luckily I have the brewery circuit on an RCD. Obviously it tripped.

I'm not sure wether to bother organizing a replacement under warranty as the exact same issue WILL happen going on everyone's experience. Will see what the damage is to the element once I'm cleaned up, and see if I can re-wire with suitable cable.

Pissed off as are many others. Pathetic quality product. Has really made me shy away from any Keg King products until something is done.

Just glad noone was hurt.

Cheers


----------



## rotten

I thought I was the only one until reading this thread. I'm glad no-one was hurt here too, circuit breaker tripped. I won't be replacing mine, life is too short to short it.


----------



## zxhoon

I can't believe people are still using these elements with a "wait and see what happens" attitude.
If you run one, you are an idiot IMO, knowing full well there is a MAJOR problem with these things and continuing to use them is playing Russian roulette!!
An RCD won't protect you if you get hooked up between the active and neutral.
Not to mention how many of these are running on a non-RCD protected outlet.

Time to make a call to Energy Safe I think, these things are going to kill someone soon.


----------



## Wolfy

zxhoon said:


> An RCD won't protect you if you get hooked up between the active and neutral.


How would that happen in this kind-of scenario?


----------



## glenwal

Wolfy said:


> How would that happen in this kind-of scenario?



You take the leads that have "burnt" off, hold them, and have someone else flick the breaker back on whilst wearning rubber soled shoes and not touching anything else to ensure you aren't earthed in any way.


PS: I do agree with the gist of his post though.


----------



## NickB

Yep, little chance of this happening as the insulation covers the internal cables. The short is between active and earth inside the outer sheath due to insulation breakdown from overheating....

Cheers


----------



## booargy

1" bsp element and lock nut for replacement. keg king elements are useful as no enclosure is needed. I think that these are more suited to extracting ethanol.


----------



## NickB

Aren't the Keg King elements 32mm, therefore 1.25"?

Cheers


----------



## Parks

NickB said:


> Aren't the Keg King elements 32mm, therefore 1.25"?
> 
> Cheers


32mm is the hole size. Not sure if they talk about hole size or pipe size with these. I think generally 1" BSP will have a hole size of about 32mm (makes sense if the pipe is 3mm thick adding 6mm to the diameter)


----------



## booargy

I used and 1" bsp nipple through a kegking element hole to connect a pump up. 32mm OD


----------



## NickB

OK, cool, cheers guys!


----------



## zxhoon

Wolfy said:


> How would that happen in this kind-of scenario?



this kind of scenario? Insulation breaking down, live conductors at mains potential touching earth/neutral (so far), how do people get electrocuted in any scenario??



Glen W said:


> You take the leads that have "burnt" off, hold them, and have someone else flick the breaker back on whilst wearning rubber soled shoes and not touching anything else to ensure you aren't earthed in any way.
> 
> PS: I do agree with the gist of his post though.



you assume the breaker has tripped in the first place, rubber soled shoes will not save you, I have been electrocuted on an earth leakage protected outlet (while wearing rubber soled shoes), reason for my post, sure it wasn't across my chest and I was lucky but it still wasn't fun.


you people seem to have this attitude of "it's not that bad" or "she'll be right"

no it's not alright and it is that bad


----------



## MaltyHops

zxhoon said:


> this kind of scenario? Insulation breaking down, live conductors at mains potential touching earth/neutral (so far), how do people get electrocuted in any scenario??
> ...


Provided an RCD is working properly, it should detect the start of
an electrocution situation where current is passing through the RCD
one way but not coming back through the RCD (going through
someone to earth via some other way) - the RCD works by detecting
the imbalance and cuts off asap.

Agree that if all the current passed through a person and then back
through the rcd, it would not detect the imbalance and hence not
activate. Hopefully this condition cannot arise.


----------



## NickB

Sorry zxhoon, but NOBODY is saying that this is a good situation to have. Like anything in your brewery you build yourself, you take a calculated risk IF you don't get them checked out by a qualified professional. In the case of these elements, they are obviously not fit for purpose, and if you deem it too dangerous to continue using them, then DON'T USE THEM.

I personally know (I'm an apprentice electrician) that all of my brew rig is properly earthed, and that the circuit I use is RCD protected. Because the element wiring is not exposed, there is only a very minimal chance of me inadvertently making contact with both the active and neutral conductors at the same time (a calculated risk that I'm willing to take) therefore, until the two remaining elements I have in use die, I will continue to use them. They will then be replaced with a suitable replacement, OR I will re-wire them with the correct gauge cable to ensure their safe operation.

Cheers

EDIT: Also, GlenW's reply above about electrocution and rubber soled shoes - I believe he was referring to the fact that the rubber soled shoes would not provide a path to earth, and that in that particular (albeit ridiculous) situation, you WOULD get electrocuted and not trip the RCD.


----------



## rotten

zxhoon said:


> you people seem to have this attitude of "it's not that bad" or "she'll be right"
> 
> no it's not alright and it is that bad



I take offence to this as you posted after me. I bought this ******* thing nearly 12 months ago after researching and not finding any issues. Mine went about 5 months ago after only a few brews and I'm not replacing it due to the safety concerns because I think it is that bad.

AFAIC craftbrewer and keg king and whoever else is selling these should stop doing so.

My circuit breaker did it's job, that doesn't mean I went out of my way to test it.


----------



## Wolfy

zxhoon said:


> this kind of scenario? Insulation breaking down, live conductors at mains potential touching earth/neutral (so far), how do people get electrocuted in any scenario??
> ...
> you assume the breaker has tripped in the first place, rubber soled shoes will not save you, I have been electrocuted on an earth leakage protected outlet (while wearing rubber soled shoes), reason for my post, sure it wasn't across my chest and I was lucky but it still wasn't fun.


I don't assume anything and my question was one from genuine interest because I'm not a sparky or qualified electrician but DO have some of these elements.

The situation you were so flippant about just now: "_live conductors at mains potential touching earth/neutral (so far), how do people get electrocuted in any scenario??_" would - as far was I was aware - trip an RCD switch.

However, in your previous post you said this:


zxhoon said:


> An RCD won't protect you if you get hooked up between the active and neutral.


and also mentioned you were "electrocuted on an earth leakage protected outlet", so the question is:
How would that happen in this kind-of scenario?

If it is as unlikely to occur as _Glen W_ pointed out, then I'm happy to take that risk and continue to use them, but if you think the risk of an active-neutral-electruction (without being grounded and tripping the RCD) is higher, then please explain how that could happen, with this particular product.


----------



## Cocko

WOW!

Great thread.

Thanks to all.

Cheers


----------



## zxhoon

rotten said:


> I take offence to this as you posted after me. I bought this ******* thing nearly 12 months ago after researching and not finding any issues. Mine went about 5 months ago after only a few brews and I'm not replacing it due to the safety concerns because I think it is that bad.
> 
> AFAIC craftbrewer and keg king and whoever else is selling these should stop doing so.
> 
> My circuit breaker did it's job, that doesn't mean I went out of my way to test it.



rotten, I'm not sure why you take offence as you seem to have the same attitude as me!


Wolfy,
Not everyone has an RCD and nobody should rely on an RCD to save their life, various reasons - someone could touch the neutral first and then the active (as happened to myself, so presented as a load, no leakage to earth - accidents can and do happen!).

A circuit breaker is a safety device designed to trip under a fault condition, they are not designed to trip infinitely and have a rated number of trips under fault conditions (an electrician I know of tested this by repeatedly re-setting a large breaker into a dead short which was rated to do so only 4 or 5 times, on the 6th reset the breaker blew apart and the electrician received flash burns, lucky to be alive - needless to say he was sent back to school).
Each time these elements fail and your breaker trips, the breaker is put under considerable stress.

As far as we know so far they have blown and tripped the protection, however there is the potential that while the insulation is breaking down the active and neutral could be exposed individually and not to each other at which point someone could be electrocuted.

If you looked at a dozen houses and checked all of their power outlets I would bet money on finding one outlet that is not wired correctly, neutral connected to the earth, neutral and active swapped around, etc.
People do silly things - DIY by a previous owner, etc.
Assuming that an installation is 100% is a big mistake to make.

NickB -" there is only a very minimal chance of me inadvertently making contact with both the active and neutral conductors at the same time (a calculated risk that I'm willing to take)" but there is a chance, that is what I am trying to express to people here that may not understand the risk they are taking in continuing to use a faulty product.
When was the last time you tested that RCD? Not trying to be smart, just making a point, assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

MaltyHops - agreed, as above you can't always be 100% sure that the install is correct, these elements are inserted into large metal pots, which if they are not earthed properly have the potential to become live, if the resistance to earth is great enough that may not trip a standard breaker, and worst case even if an RCD is installed it may not be correctly installed, has happened before.

I'm starting to talk in circles now but I've made my point, whilst being unlikely it is a very real possibility that these elements could kill someone, if I have offended anyone that was not my intention and I apologise, I just find it hard to understand how saving some money can overcome safety.


----------



## Muscovy_333

@zxhoon
I'm listening, and i'm sure many others are as well. I am a learner when it comes to electricity so will take both sides on board. 
Thanks for explaining a "possible" risk.
I err on the side of caution when it comes to 240V. Only takes one mistake when it comes to 240V...thats all i know!


----------



## glenwal

Also, for the benifit of anyone who doesn't know the difference, a circuit breaker and an RCD are two completely different things (though you often get a "combined" device).

A circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring in the house from melting and burning your house down. It offers no personal protection for an unfortunate person who touches a live wire. A circuit breaker has a specific current rating (16A for a general household power circuit), and if more current is drawn through it than that (either from overloading or from a short) it will trip. 

An RCD (residual current device), often called a saftey switch or earth leakage detector, is designed to protect people. It basically compares the current flowing in vs the current returned and a difference (leakage to earth) causes the RCD to trip. This helps prevent you from being zapped as (generally) you will complete the circuit to earth and cause the leakage. The RCD then trips in a few milliseconds, preventing your death. As staed by zxhoon - it is still possible to complete an active-neutral circuit and not be protected. 

The important thing here though, is most old houses do not have RCDs (they are legally required in new houses), and will only have fuses or circuit breakers, and alot of people don't know the difference and assume that a breaker or fuse will protect them.

You should also be testing your RCDs every few months (by pressing the little test button on it - which should trip the unit if it is working correctly)


----------



## bonj

Glen W said:


> You should also be testing your RCDs every few months (by pressing the little test button on it - which should trip the unit if it is working correctly)


<joke>But what about my uptime?</joke>


----------



## NickB

UPS.


----------



## bonj

NickB said:


> UPS.


Damn you're clever!


----------



## NickB

Just make sure you don't get hooked up between the active and neutral on the UPS though Ben...


----------



## jyo

What happened to Lethal Corpse?


----------



## NickB

Electrocuted I heard. Faulty RCD...

h34r:


----------



## jyo

:lol: 



NickB said:


> Electrocuted I heard. Faulty RCD...
> 
> h34r:


----------



## spudfarmerboy

you assume the breaker has tripped in the first place, rubber soled shoes will not save you, I have been electrocuted on an earth leakage protected outlet (while wearing rubber soled shoes), reason for my post, sure it wasn't across my chest and I was lucky but it still 


[/quote]


You say you got "electrocuted" on an earth leakage protected circuit.
You must be posting from the dead.
Electrocution is DEATH by electric shock, I think you mean you got a " shock" from an earth leakage protected outlet, which is entirely possible. People think an RCD will protect them from all electric shocks, only if some current goes to earth and there is an imbalance in current flow between active and neutral, will the RCD trip.


----------



## dcx3

Hi all 
I posted my fault on brew Adelaide but forgot to post here,Boneski replied and mentioned the ongoing problems with these element's.I have just finished re-reading this thread, there has been alot added since i first read of Kev's complaint's some time ago. For some reason i was under the impression that the problems had been fixed and that my element would not be affected.Maybe i should stop skimming threads or learn to read.  
Well mine blew last weekend.I was just getting ready to brew and had flicked the switch to heat my water, when about 30 seconds later there was a loud POP and then a small shower of sparks that only stopped when i switched the power off.
No dramas apart from the fact that one of my Daughters follows me everywhere!! 
Luckily she was on the other side of the pot when the cord gave up the ghost, if she had of been between myself and the pot she would have worn a face full of **** knows what. When the element popped it was loud enough to scare the shite out of the pair of us! I she hadn't of been there i would of had my running shoe's on and lashed it.Luckily only my pride was hurt and now my daughter knows im a chicken shit.

I bought my element from craftbrewer and hold them responsible. They have my e-mail and they should have used it to tell me about these problems. If i hadn't been told in this thread that they where KK products i wouldnt be any the wiser.Maybe thats wrong and some people may argue that point but at some stage you should take care of your customers and just touch base to let everyone know there has been problems.
I note that craftbrewer still stocks these elements. I also note that AHB members are still using them...Dont!! Do yourself a favour and take a weekend of brewing and spend that time looking into a safer option.Let's keep this thread going and if anyone finds a better option drop it in here so we can all brew better
All the best and cheers!


----------



## seemax

Came across another option - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Water-Heater-Sc...=item3f0a164db6

240V, 3000W, $25 incl shipping, suits a 1 1/4" hole (same as KK) plus it's got a terminal block too... unclear if stainless or not.


----------



## NickB

From my research lately, the hole size for the KK elements is actually 1" BSP. Does limit choice somewhat, but there are similar elements to those that have been linked that are available in 1" size.

Cheers


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

OK guys. I have one of these KK elements and it has worked for 6 brews so far but I am now going to retire it. I have a 50L ali pot with a KK size element hole in it. Has anyone found a plug and play element that I can change out so I can keep my pot????
Cheers
BBB


----------



## b0neski

I recently changed the configuration of my brewery, converting my dual KK element kettle to a single element HLT. I had an irrepairable element that I modified by grinding the internal weld out to remove the stick and tapping a 1/2" BSP thread on the inside of the remaining bulkhead fitting to make an adaptor for a thermowell. The thread did not cut full depth but it was enough to secure the thermowell. Everything sealed up fine with a bit of silicone sealant. You could just as easily block the hole with a 1/2" plug.

So if you need to block / change the purpose of the 32mm hole this may be an option for you.....


----------



## Logman

Tried my *new element* today on the HLT. I think it did the first 30 litres (19 degrees) in around 35-40 mins to 75 degrees. Word of warning that if you get one you'll need a big ass spanner and a pair of vice grips as the locking nut is 40mm across (got from Reece Plumbing). The thread was long enough that I could drill a 32 mm hole in the Aluminum Jiffy Box and it reached right through the keg holding the jiffy in place. Used the supplied rubber o-ring and tested overnight and it didn't leak a drop, no drops today either while brewing - I used silicone all around the Jiffy Box entrance too. Fit snug into the KK hole.


----------



## angus_grant

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Nice to see that Green/Earth wire, dont see to many rigged right.
> Nev



Just an install question: for people that are doing up a water-proof (or resistant) metal box enclosure like this one. I have the wiring join sitting above the element terminals so if water starts leaking, it will drip down to the bottom of the enclosure. The cable gang is one of the water-resistant ones, and the earth point is in the bottom right hand corner of the enclosure. You can see the bolt sitting outside the enclosure. I am tempted to drill some holes in the bottom to let liquid escape if it did end up leaking. This way, the box wouldn't fill up with liquid and eventually hit the terminals of the element. Thoughts?

I also wonder if I should solder the two wires together and use some heat-shrink in an effort to water-proof things a little more?


----------



## Parks

angus_grant said:


> I also wonder if I should solder the two wires together and use some heat-shrink in an effort to water-proof things a little more?


Soldering 240V is a big no-no. At the amperage your element pulls it will melt.

Can't comment on the rest


----------



## NickB

Sorry Parks, you can solder 240V no problems at all. Just need to use a quality solder that's designed for 240V use (not the crap you buy from Jaycar/Dick's). I've soldered up mains that pull 100A+ no problems.

Download a copy of the AS3000 if you want to verify the standards... 

Cheers


----------



## Logman

angus_grant said:


> Just an install question: for people that are doing up a water-proof (or resistant) metal box enclosure like this one. I have the wiring join sitting above the element terminals so if water starts leaking, it will drip down to the bottom of the enclosure. The cable gang is one of the water-resistant ones, and the earth point is in the bottom right hand corner of the enclosure. You can see the bolt sitting outside the enclosure. I am tempted to drill some holes in the bottom to let liquid escape if it did end up leaking. This way, the box wouldn't fill up with liquid and eventually hit the terminals of the element. Thoughts?



Was thinking about this exact thing while brewing yesterday. When I originally put it together I got a few drops overnight, but after drying it they never came back - think I filled it with water to test too quickly after using the silicone.

So I thought about doing the same thing, just planned to drill one hole and maybe araldite some sort of cover over the hole that would let water out but still cover the hole from splashing in case it needs a clean or something - maybe split an inch or two of copper tubing in half and leave it open ended.


----------



## Parks

NickB said:


> Sorry Parks, you can solder 240V no problems at all. Just need to use a quality solder that's designed for 240V use (not the crap you buy from Jaycar/Dick's). I've soldered up mains that pull 100A+ no problems.
> 
> Download a copy of the AS3000 if you want to verify the standards...
> 
> Cheers


I'll just get back in my box then


----------



## HBHB

For anyone interested, i believe the new version of the KK Element has now been released and replacements for the old failure are available.

From what i can gather from Kee, the new design appears to have solved the manufacturing issue everyone has experienced - Just in case anyone wants a working version. Not sure on what numbers are available. 


-Martin


----------



## keifer33

I think to win the hearts of brewers back Keg King really need to send out some units to a couple of random brewers to get some real world feedback. Someone wanting to sell products will rarely admit a problem exists but more willing to admit it's been fixed. My element now resides in landfill.


----------



## QldKev

HBHB said:


> For anyone interested, i believe the new version of the KK Element has now been released and replacements for the old failure are available.
> 
> From what i can gather from Kee, the new design appears to have solved the manufacturing issue everyone has experienced - Just in case anyone wants a working version. Not sure on what numbers are available.
> 
> 
> -Martin




I thought version 2, and then 3, and then 4 were fixing up the issues. They seem to have claimed it fixed several times. How about the rust issue, is this fixed too?
Here is one example of the new element not being the best. 


Sorry Martin, but Keg Kings products have done their dash for me (not just the elements). If I want cheap Chinese stuff I've got ebay, like the new U-shape elements at 1/4 the cost. If I want quality stuff I'll look elsewhere. When he wont even stand behind the warranty in my case, and says it's my fault for something I did not do! it just not good customer service.


----------



## Filby

Ive run the new elements for a few brews with no dramas. Still gets warm (as you would expect) but it doesnt cook itself anymore.

Fil


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

lets just hope they have fixed the issue once and for all. I am sick and tired of having to replace elements. i only swapped 2 over at CB on friday.


----------



## rotten

I'm personally not prepared to take the risk of it not being fixed again and ordered a quality element from elsewhere.

I'm still surprised no-one has been hurt yet.


----------



## Wolfy

HBHB said:


> For anyone interested, i believe the new version of the KK Element has now been released and replacements for the old failure are available.
> 
> From what i can gather from Kee, the new design appears to have solved the manufacturing issue everyone has experienced - Just in case anyone wants a working version.


New as in when?
A new version/shipment since May?


----------



## Ross

Wolfy said:


> New as in when?
> A new version/shipment since May?



Yes, arrived last week - element is slightly longer reducing the heat that was effecting the cable. hopefully this latest version will finally have it right.
All elements still have a 3 year warranty.

cheers Ross


----------



## rotten

Whats the process to get a faulty one replaced Ross?


----------



## Wolfy

Ross said:


> Yes, arrived last week - element is slightly longer reducing the heat that was effecting the cable. hopefully this latest version will finally have it right.
> All elements still have a 3 year warranty.


Cool, thanks for the info. 
_(not that I've had trouble with mine ... yet)._


----------



## MastersBrewery

Ross said:


> Yes, arrived last week - element is slightly longer reducing the heat that was effecting the cable. hopefully this latest version will finally have it right.
> All elements still have a 3 year warranty.
> 
> cheers Ross



what is the length now ross, just want to know if it will fit in my keggle.


----------



## HBHB

QldKev said:


> Sorry Martin, but Keg Kings products have done their dash for me (not just the elements). If I want cheap Chinese stuff I've got ebay, like the new U-shape elements at 1/4 the cost. If I want quality stuff I'll look elsewhere. When he wont even stand behind the warranty in my case, and says it's my fault for something I did not do! it just not good customer service.



Nothing to be sorry about Kev. I think anyone would agree your complaint (and others) could have been handled a lot better. At the end of the day, i doubt anyone would have an issue with a faulty product being replaced with an apology and without fuss. 

Let's just hope the lesson has been learned and everyone can get brewing again without further issues - that's what we're all here for. I'm told the rusting issue has also been addressed but only time will tell.

Here's hoping that once again, there's a plug and play element that represents good value for money, simplicity for fitting and reliability.

Martin


----------



## Ross

MastersBrewery said:


> what is the length now ross, just want to know if it will fit in my keggle.



All dimensions are on our website...

cheers Ross


----------



## Parks

Ross said:


> All dimensions are on our website...
> 
> cheers Ross


Is the image still incorrect Ross or has the power cord been completely removed now from the element (and thus the element has only a normal jug/computer style IEC socket)


----------



## sinkas

SO i see the new, new,new version is meant to be available through Ross this month,
are these still well-dodgy or have they been dramatically improved?


----------



## QldKev

Fingers crossed it is fixed in this fixed, fixed, fixed version. Both the 2 element on my HLT are showing wiring issue at the base, including the fixed, fixed version that rusted. I should just pull my finger out and replace them with something else as I'm too scared to use a timer on the HLT with them, meaning I can't have it fired it up ready for when I get up /or get home. The hot water system elements don;t seem to have any issues.


----------



## OneBrew

Well just had what I think is the new type fail, has the black screw on shroud and a 300mm cable length to an IEC appliance plug. Had done about 10hrs work. Smelt it first then saw the smoke. Have fitted a 2nd one I had, but within 20mins the white shroud has ballooned out already. By the looks of how it failed, it was a bad crimp on the neutral lead. creating arching and a lot of heat. ie poor quality manufacturing


----------



## NickB

OneBrew - I haven't seen the NEW new ones in person, but the pictures on the CB site seem to indicate that the small length of cable is no longer attached, just an IEC plug directly into the base of the element (Ross may be able to confirm). Fingers crossed this is the case - I have had another of my 3 die last week and awaiting a replacement. This will now be the second time all 3 have been replaced.

As soon as my 1" BSP locknuts arrive from eBay, I will be replacing the HLT element with a HWS element I have. Not too confident how they will go in Wort however - may just have to bite the bullet and see.

Cheers


EDIT: The issues I see with these are as follows (and I did pull one apart to see):

1. Using crimp lugs in place of soldering the cables - always a major point of failure
2. Cable that is only rated to 75C - we all know boiling wort is 100C+ and some if not most of this heat will be transferred through the element and into the cable - meaning a breakdown of the insulation and a short between active and neutral (plus the cable is only 1mm2)
3. They're just a very cheaply made POS - I know I'd be very inclined to buy a better quality product at a higher price...


----------



## Parks

That image is version 1


----------



## NickB

OK, thanks Parks - Well, I have no doubt then that it is not fixed, as the cord is the major point of failure....


----------



## Wolfy

I built a new control-box for my brewery, using it for the first time today, so when I turned on both kettle-elements and noticed a burning-melting-plastic-electrical-stuff-smell, the logical thing to think was that I'd wired something incorrectly (since I did it all from memory) or some of the excess tape I'd used got a bit warm.
However, after sniffing around a bit, the plug on the main (bottom) kettle-element had started to melt and smoke:





No exposed wires or stuff like that, but I presume everything inside is well melted since the stuff on the outside is.
Luckily brewing indoors in the insulated kettle, means that one element works well enough, so the brew day was finished without additional drama.


----------



## seravitae

I sent an email to Kee on 21st Sept stating that I was concerned about a version of the element that was dangerous due to poor filler around the cord section, I asked if the issue has been addressed, if so, I would order more of the new version.

I was informed and have it in email from Kee that the design of the elements have been changed. I am just waiting on them to post their new stock to me, I have bought 10 of them, so I will not be 'taking a risk' on this, I will be testing them and reporting back. If there is even the slightest problem with the cord material or filler material, or rusting, I will be sending them back for immediate refund (since I have it in writing, if the situation has not been resolved, then it is a case of dishonesty, perhaps fraud though I am not a lawyer, and we will hopefully have a conclusion on this topic. 

If the design has not been changed, and I receive any resistance to refund, I will immediately contact ACCC/fair trades, and I am sure that there are some other governmental bodies that would love to know they are willingly selling out of spec and dangerous electrical gear. I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt because I can't see why a company would want to expose themselves to that kind of risk.

All my other KK purchases have been fine, so here's hoping they have honestly rectified the issue. Watch this space for news.

Cheers

Seb


----------



## Maheel

i reckon they need to increase the size of the wires inside them... hopefully they have 

i had mine running this morning and it was "hot" as usual..

i reckon thicker copper would reduce a lot of issues pulling 2200 for hours during a brew day.
as they are a great simple solution to home brewers


----------



## seravitae

from my experience with the older elements, it's the insulation temperature rating that seems to be causing the main problems, but of course, thicker copper would help with that.


----------



## seravitae

F$*#*$#. Just found one of the older style elements, plugged it in, and a 3 foot fireball launched out of it. 

I'm too traumatised to even use the new elements now.


----------



## QldKev

I've got 2 Keg King elements in my HLT, one as raised in this thread which was a replacement and one from a couple of months prior when I purchased the 2. When I got sent the replacement one I was told it was the newer version. It has a different length cable, and I noticed the keg king logo is stamped into it in the reverse direction. Both are having issues at the base and I've cable tied them up and cut back the insulation to try and prolong their use. Only issue is now I have a HLT that I am not comfortable using from a timer to start heating up prior to me getting up, and every use I'm expecting a smoke session from it. Also most the time I'm only running one and wasting twice the time to try and minimize the heating around it. 

QldKev


----------



## angus_grant

Man, I've held my tongue for quite a while on this topic. With elements failing due to design flaws there is no way in hell I'd be using the elements or waiting for existing ones to crap out. Dust the cobwebs and moths out of your wallet, and buy a decent heating element. Don't run the risk of sparks, 3 foot fireballs, etc, etc. The $40 you spent originally and the warranty is not worth your life.

I can only shake my head at Kev's attitude. This is 240V going into a big barrel of boiling water we are talking about. You are waiting for the elements to fail or a smoke session. That shows such a reckless disregard for your own safety or anyone else's safety who happens to be there for the "smoke session". Personally I'd be unbolting those things, cutting the cord so no-one else tries to use them and binning them now.

Anyways, I'll probably get some grief about my comments but I just have to say something.


----------



## seravitae

No I think you are right.

I actually align my values quite heavily with health and safety. This was just a tide-me-over literally until next week, when I can install my proper stokes 6kW industrial elements (and 2kW for customers). 

However, I was told on the 21st that they were out of elements, I expedited payment in advance such that they could ship them ASAP, i was told it would be available Thur/Fri (27th / 28th). Now been over a week past that time, and still have not seen anything, so I can only assume they have not sent them yet, so I have asked for a refund.


----------



## QldKev

I'm also agreeing with you too. 

I should pull my finger out and replace them. I've just got a couple of other projects on at the moment and haven't look back at them. Also since I only use them about once a month it's too easy to put it off. I do remember someone found an easy replacement for them to block up the holes, but I guess HWS ones are normally bigger so that would make it easy.

QldKev


----------



## barls

just bought one from here to fit to my rims
http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/ind...r/elements.html


----------



## QldKev

barls said:


> just bought one from here to fit to my rims
> http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/ind...r/elements.html




Cool thanks, just bookmarked the page

QldKev


----------



## NickB

I have some 1" BSP threaded elements I'm planning to use - however the thread extends into the pot, and I'm working on a solution to seal these up tonight....

Fingers crossed.

All I can say is make sure you're using the KK element on a circuit that is RCD protected, and that the RCD is tested as working.

Cheers


----------



## Wolfy

NickB said:


> All I can say is make sure you're using the KK element on a circuit that is RCD protected, and that the RCD is tested as working.


Mine works. 
Didn't mean to test it deliberately, but water + electricity can do that.


----------



## NickB

Yep, all RCDs should be tested every 6 months - who actually checks theirs at home this often though? I know at work we do need to do inspections and tests every 6 months.

Take 5 seconds, go to your switch board, and press the test button on each RCD - it could be the difference between the RCD saving your life, or failing and killing you.

I urge everyone to test them regardless of what elements you're using......

Cheers


----------



## fergi

NickB said:


> Yep, all RCDs should be tested every 6 months - who actually checks theirs at home this often though? I know at work we do need to do inspections and tests every 6 months.
> 
> Take 5 seconds, go to your switch board, and press the test button on each RCD - it could be the difference between the RCD saving your life, or failing and killing you.
> 
> I urge everyone to test them regardless of what elements you're using......
> 
> Cheers




i have a earth leakage switch in my switch board. do you guys recommend having a portable one as well. i brew outside under my pergola where the circuits are connected to the earth leakage switch in the main board.

fergi


----------



## kelbygreen

6 months?? 

not sure what industry you are in but in the construction industry it has to be tested daily or every time you plug it in. Also has to be tagged every 3 months. Was the same when I worked in QLD so not sure what your in but 6 months is a bit much, Office electrical I think is tagged 6 monthly but sure if they had RCD it would have to be tested before they turn the computers on every day.

Edit: oh industrial is every month it has to be tagged


----------



## NickB

Nah mate, 6 monthly push button test, 12 monthly trip time test. This is for RCDs in boards on train stations.

As for test and tag - anything taken out in the field is 3 monthly, fixed appliances like computers are every 5 years... Other items 12 monthly... Anyway, we're digressing. 

Just tested my 1" BSP element and its working great - just need to source a higher powered one than the 1800W I had spare for my HLT....

Cheers


----------



## lukasfab

so what size element would i need for my 70l to boil doubles?


----------



## r055c0

Bloody glad I read this before heading to Keg King after work, thanks!


----------



## seravitae

I should point out in fairness that all other keg king purchases have been of high quality. They really need to stop stocking this brand/type of element, and I haven't had any service issues with them, including refunds for my elements. So you should still consider heading to them for whatever you need, as long as its not those death sticks.


----------



## Parks

I have been reliably informed that they have lengthened the element moving the internal coil further away from where the cable joins. Hopefully this will have it fixed...


----------



## MattC

For Sale: 1 x 2200W stainless steel element. Brand new never been used. Still in original box. Due to health reasons this must go. Will consider all offers. h34r:


----------



## Kingbrownbrewing

Just heard from Anthony that the new ones are in!!

My brewery has been out of action for too long.

Looks like a full weekend of brewing for me.


----------



## Ross

sera said:


> I should point out in fairness that all other keg king purchases have been of high quality. They really need to stop stocking this brand/type of element, and I haven't had any service issues with them, including refunds for my elements. So you should still consider heading to them for whatever you need, as long as its not those death sticks.



So you have the latest version then??


----------



## kieran

Don't screw with 2400W elements. It's worth it to pay a bit more and have something solid.

I have two 2400W over-the-side elements. they have done me over 2 years so far, and have been solid performers.
like this but with a better coating.. it doesn't burn.


----------



## seravitae

Nope. But my experience with the old version was traumatic enough to warrant not trusting them, especially as multiple revisions have had problems, from my research. I was given a refund on the supposedly new models because I wasnt comfortable with that brand, ever. I fully admit it is an emotional response. But for many, that is a strong deciding factor in a purchase, no matter how irrational it is.



Ross said:


> So you have the latest version then??


----------



## Ross

sera said:


> Nope. But my experience with the old version was traumatic enough to warrant not trusting them, especially as multiple revisions have had problems, from my research. I was given a refund on the supposedly new models because I wasnt comfortable with that brand, ever. I fully admit it is an emotional response. But for many, that is a strong deciding factor in a purchase, no matter how irrational it is.




Sorry, you make a statement beginning with "in fairness" & then make totally damming comments telling him he shouldn't be stocking the new elements & calling them death sticks. Not the sort of irrational comments I'd expect from a retailer towards someone elses products on a public forum. Maybe try contacting the retailer & discussing with him first. You would then know the upgrades that have been made, the testing that has been done, & would be in a far better position to make comment...

Ross


----------



## seravitae

I wrote a huge response but then I just deleted it, as it was getting tedious.

here's the finer points:


service from keg king has been great, will definately order from them soon.
due to incidences with the older versions i have decided not to use the new versions, with fears of recurring issues (emotional response)
nobody has provided me with tangible enough evidence to convince me otherwise
i can get elements of a different style, which has much less chance of failure, and has a better design, for cheaper.
i am in the best position to make comments on my opinion, in fact I am in the only position possible to make my opinion, right or wrong.
i sell no similar replacement elements, and all my elements will now be threaded BSP style, so I am not trying to divert sales from you or KK to me.
 I respect your defence but you also have a vested interest in this item, so if I am not in a position to speak, then I believe neither of us are...

edit: FWIW : this thread is 17 pages long so far. It is going to take a lot of evidence to change people's minds about these elements I believe. I would humbly suggest that calling people out on their shortcomings as humans on making opinions is likely not going to be effective in convincing them to buy elements. You may need to find a more generalized way of demonstrating the fixes in the new models to reduce fear. Otherwise you will find that statistically there will always be unhappy customers, and mopping up after them on forums is going to occupy your time, which I know you value, being a busy man. 

either way, I am tapping out of this thread now, as I value my previous experiences with you as a person, and hope for that again, and would not like to tarnish that, so I will leave it be.


----------



## booargy

At first these were the only element I used in my brewery so it was set up for them. On my HLT/kettle is a stainless J box to house the elements. the inside of it is covered in soot from all the blown elements. I had 5 and 5 fucked up. couldn't get replacements so I changed the brewery to suit different elements. They came from ebay like the originals. Haven't had one blow since. 
Ross they were a shit element you knew it and so did lots of other people. Now you have fixed it you are vocal. Bit late bloke.


----------



## NickB

Just a note Booargy, Ross doesn't manufacture these, he is just one agent who sells them sourced from KK

Cheers


----------



## Ross

For those that are interested, I have discussed these elements at length with Kee from Keg King. I have no vested interest other than as a reseller who wants assurance that the product is safe & reliable. We stock other similarly priced elements, so have no issue with dropping this line if the problems are not resolved.

According to Kee, in the the previous model the heating element inside the S/S sheath came too close to the cable connectors causing in many units the cabling to get too hot & fail. The new units have a longer sheath so the element is far enough away from the cable to prevent the excess heating. Kee informs me that the new units have undergone long & extensive trials, with no failures, & they are now confident of their future reliability & have manufactured in quantity. Considering all these units come with a 3 year warranty, Keg King is open too considerable future losses if the problems have not been rectified, so at this stage I'm taking them at their word & have restocked.

Only time will tell if the problems have been truly rectified, but with the assurances I've had from Kee I'm hopeful.


Ross


----------



## OneBrew

My thought would be to ask Keg King to supply the Declaration of Compliance to show that the new models have been tested and passed the relevant AS and NZS standard (believe its a harmonised standard across both). Not sure of the Au rules, but on NZ the importer of any electrical item, must be able to produce this immediately upon request of the Govt Ministry and to purchases. Given harmonisation of standards between the two countries I assume there is a similar model in Australia. And probably for the previous versions as well....


----------



## Ross

booargy said:


> At first these were the only element I used in my brewery so it was set up for them. On my HLT/kettle is a stainless J box to house the elements. the inside of it is covered in soot from all the blown elements. I had 5 and 5 fucked up. couldn't get replacements so I changed the brewery to suit different elements. They came from ebay like the originals. Haven't had one blow since.
> Ross they were a shit element you knew it and so did lots of other people. Now you have fixed it you are vocal. Bit late bloke.




We have not fixed anything, they are not our elements & fyi we have been vocal from the start, on here & especially behind the scenes. Yes there have been problems, but we did not know the issues when originally stocked. Keg King have continually modified & redesigned the element to correct the issues as they've arisen & in the meantime have always stood behind their 3 year warranty. Of course I'm not happy with the problems there have been, & if the elements continue to fail it's very unlikely we'll continue to stock. 
Booargy, if you'd bought your original elements from a reputable supplier, rather than from some dodgy operator on Ebay, you would have had them replaced, or refunded in full without question. 

Ross.


----------



## booargy

Ross they were good value for me around 100 brews with them. Had they been in stock I would have got more.
I have now purchased a 3kw low density RIMS element expensive and not yet finished but should be good. In my HLT/kettle 3kw and 2kw ebay elements cheap as. 
That is what I meant by to late and yeah I know who makes them.


----------



## r055c0

Still wen't to keg king, just didn't buy the element


----------



## Red Baron

The guys at Keg King have been nothing but helpful with me. I advised them of a burnout on thursday, confirmed my purchase details on friday, and a new element arrived today- monday. I have high hopes for the new one. I'll admit they probably have a bit of experience dealing with this issue by now after reading the previous 17 pages, but their customer service can't be faulted in my case.


Cheers,

RB.


----------



## Lakey

Red Baron said:


> The guys at Keg King have been nothing but helpful with me. I advised them of a burnout on thursday, confirmed my purchase details on friday, and a new element arrived today- monday. I have high hopes for the new one. I'll admit they probably have a bit of experience dealing with this issue by now after reading the previous 17 pages, but their customer service can't be faulted in my case.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> RB.


Hey red baron, post any feedback about these new elements im keen to know if they are worth buying.


----------



## Maltyfingers

can someone puts some dates to all this stuff?

I brought 2 x Elements on 3/03/2011

23/01/2012, both elements had failed. replaced under warranty.

5/07/2012, both new elements failed. replaced under warranty.

1/10/2012, one more element failed.

What dates where the new ones released and how can you tell the difference. ( had one smoke and burn, just last week)

These should be all recalled and removed from sale.


----------



## joshuahardie

hmmmm 
well i bought one of these today.

craftbrewer told me they have had no issues with the new stock.

so i will be monitoring and will report back


----------



## Verbyla

I can support everything Ross just explained. The guys at Keg King openly told me that their previous model was faulty and that they had rectified these issues as explained above.

A Declaration of Compliance doesn't necessarily mean that a product will be great quality and not become faulty. The authorities do insulation resistance, fault loop impedance and continuity tests on electrical products to ensure they meet Australian and New Zealand standards. They don't have the time or funds to vigorously test everything that comes into the country. Faulty products are usually found through consumers reporting dodge or faulty products or sadly through someone getting injured. I'm an electrician and after learning that older models where faulty did all the tests to ensure that the element in fact did pass Australian electrical safety standards. Both of the elements I purchased clearly passed all tests.

If Keg King have corrected the design flaw that was the cause for these elements going BOOM! then I see no reason(other than emotional  ) for them not to be purchased. That being said I can complete understand why people would prefer not to take their chances


----------



## bradsbrew

I bought one off ebay nearly 3 years ago. Has worked well and I have not had any electrical faults, despite me letting it get glowwing red without water twice, but it now takes nearly 2 hours to get the hlt to sparge temps and could not keep 25 L at a rolling boil. Can any one explain how an element loses it's ability to heat?

Anyway I have decided to replace it and have no problem buying my next one from craftbrewer, which is what I will do. I will always use an RCD with them though.

Cheers


----------



## booargy

bradsbrew said:


> I bought one off ebay nearly 3 years ago. Has worked well and I have not had any electrical faults, despite me letting it get glowwing red without water twice, but it now takes nearly 2 hours to get the hlt to sparge temps and could not keep 25 L at a rolling boil. Can any one explain how an element loses it's ability to heat?
> 
> Anyway I have decided to replace it and have no problem buying my next one from craftbrewer, which is what I will do. I will always use an RCD with them though.
> 
> Cheers



the resistance is increasing in the element which means that the electricity is finding it hard to get from one end to the other there fore dropping the output. the actual element is a tough bastard.


----------



## spog

certainly is a tough bastard of an element if it was glowing red when not immersed in water but keeps working. cheers...spog....


----------



## Red Baron

Lakey said:


> Hey red baron, post any feedback about these new elements im keen to know if they are worth buying.




Will do. All my bottles are full at the moment, so it will be a short while.....

As for dates, purchased 2 elements 19/02/12. Gave one to a mate, it burned out in SEP. Mine burned out on 21/22 OCT. The new element Keg King sent me is longer than the previous one, and the stamp on the element is upside down. Other than that, it looks the same as the old one (if that helps anyone).



RB.


----------



## Lakey

KABOOM!!! My kk element finally went last night after about 20 odd brews, I spose it was only a matter of time! Luckily it was about 10min to go in a 90min boil so no major dramas there. Has anyone used the new type kk elements? Have they fixed the problem? I am finding it hard to find a screw in type element with the same size thread as the kk ones.


----------



## NickB

You won't find a direct replacement in 1" BSP for anywhere near the price (a place would build me one for about $300 though) - I went with These, which are a little bit of a pain to get sealed properly, but working a treat. They are quite long though, so check your pot size.

I've had enough of the KK elements to never buy them again.


Cheers


----------



## QldKev

Lakey said:


> KABOOM!!! My kk element finally went last night after about 20 odd brews, I spose it was only a matter of time! Luckily it was about 10min to go in a 90min boil so no major dramas there. Has anyone used the new type kk elements? Have they fixed the problem? I am finding it hard to find a screw in type element with the same size thread as the kk ones.






NickB said:


> You won't find a direct replacement in 1" BSP for anywhere near the price (a place would build me one for about $300 though) - I went with These, which are a little bit of a pain to get sealed properly, but working a treat. They are quite long though, so check your pot size.
> 
> I've had enough of the KK elements to never buy them again.
> 
> 
> Cheers



That one from stove connection looks like a great unit. The extra length will mean it's a lower heat density so will reduce the possibility of scorching. 

I know I'm not going to be a guinea pig to test out the new keg king ones. 

QldKev


----------



## Lakey

NickB said:


> You won't find a direct replacement in 1" BSP for anywhere near the price (a place would build me one for about $300 though) - I went with These, which are a little bit of a pain to get sealed properly, but working a treat. They are quite long though, so check your pot size.
> 
> I've had enough of the KK elements to never buy them again.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Yeah they look good but the hole in my pot left over from the kk one is 32mm which is 1.25inch. I really dont want to buy another keg king one but not sure if there are many other options.


----------



## punkin

32mm is the diameter of 1" bsp thread


----------



## Lakey

punkin said:


> 32mm is the diameter of 1" bsp thread


Ok I thought it was 25mm, im not used to working with imperial measurements so I entered 32mm into a converter on my phone and it said 1.25 inch, my mistake


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Lakey said:


> Ok I thought it was 25mm, im not used to working with imperial measurements so I entered 32mm into a converter on my phone and it said 1.25 inch, my mistake




yes, 25 (or 25.4MM) is 1", however the pipe thread is determined by the ID of the pipe. Eg. 1" pipe may be 1.25" OD. (just one of those silly thigs poms do  )


----------



## QldKev

Lakey said:


> Ok I thought it was 25mm, im not used to working with imperial measurements so I entered 32mm into a converter on my phone and it said 1.25 inch, my mistake




1 inch = 25.4mm 

But 1 inch BSP means you have a pipe with an internal bore of 1 inch. Not an outer diameter of 1 inch. 
Hence an internal bore of 25.4 plus wall thickness plus thread thickness = 32mm

edit: Beaten by _WALLACE_

QldKev


----------



## Lakey

_WALLACE_ said:


> yes, 25 (or 25.4MM) is 1", however the pipe thread is determined by the ID of the pipe. Eg. 1" pipe may be 1.25" OD. (just one of those silly thigs poms do  )






QldKev said:


> 1 inch = 25.4mm
> 
> But 1 inch BSP means you have a pipe with an internal bore of 1 inch. Not an outer diameter of 1 inch.
> Hence an internal bore of 25.4 plus wall thickness plus thread thickness = 32mm
> 
> edit: Beaten by _WALLACE_
> 
> QldKev


Ok thanks for clearing that up for me :drinks: now disreguard my earlier post.


----------



## Maheel

i have been happy with this 

http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.a...P-SCREW-IN-2381

they offered to reduce the price to about $30 + post when i was talking to them 

i also have their 3600 one 

pretty easy to set up


----------



## barls

barls said:


> just bought one from here to fit to my rims
> http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/ind...r/elements.html


from two pages ago. cheapest ive found


----------



## Filby

I got a pair of new KK elements as replacements for my existing ones. They are a bit longer than the previous ones so hopefully this is the final iteration of them. I'm hoping to do a brew this weekend so should be able to find out how they hold up.


Fil


----------



## Logman

Maheel said:


> i have been happy with this
> 
> http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.a...P-SCREW-IN-2381



I got one of *these* as I noticed my original lock nut was squeezing the o-ring out a bit - I've got the o-ring inside because the outside section of the element is inside the jiffy box. 

Anyone know if 304 Chinese stainless is up to the task (just for HLT) ? Hope so as it's keeping the o-ring snug in place...


----------



## punkin

Lakey said:


> Ok thanks for clearing that up for me :drinks: now disreguard my earlier post.



I surely will....


----------



## Parks

_WALLACE_ said:


> yes, 25 (or 25.4MM) is 1", however the pipe thread is determined by the ID of the pipe. Eg. 1" pipe may be 1.25" OD. (just one of those silly thigs poms do  )



The way I understand it is pipe is measure by internal diameter, tube by external diameter.

Pipe is used for transferring liquid/gas where the internal diameter (vs external) is the critical measurement in determining pressure. Tube is used structurally where the external diameter is more important.


----------



## joshuahardie

I have one of the new ones, and just gave it a quick burst in some water.
I noticed that I never really got a solid boil going, just a low rolling boil.
So I will have to try some insulation matting.

Ok now for the stupid question. The O ring that comes with the kit. does it go on the inside or the outside of the pot.
??


----------



## Parks

joshuahardie said:


> Ok now for the stupid question. The O ring that comes with the kit. does it go on the inside or the outside of the pot.
> ??



Inside


----------



## joshuahardie

By fluke I did it right.

Thanks Parks


----------



## Parks

Excellent


----------



## Pleasure Master

Oh Man!!.... I just found this thread...

Last Friday I purchased another KK element...that makes 3 that I have..I'm quite paranoid about using them now..

And to add salt to the wound.. Purchased on Friday, Fitted Saturday, Rusty Monday...












I have since contacted the seller.

But I recitified the problem myself, I have some pickle paste at home.(I work with SS for a living)

To ask a question, is it possible to repair these elements electrically if they go bang?


----------



## NickB

I pulled one apart when it died and sadly there's not really any way of repairing them - I suppose you could completely pull the element out of the stainless sheath and try to fit another, but it was glued in there pretty well.....

Use the warranty - that's what it's for!

Cheers


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Parks said:


> The way I understand it is pipe is measure by internal diameter, tube by external diameter.
> 
> Pipe is used for transferring liquid/gas where the internal diameter (vs external) is the critical measurement in determining pressure. Tube is used structurally where the external diameter is more important.




Hence why it is BSP "British Standard Pipe" and not BST..........


----------



## Filby

Ran my two new ones last night. They are longer by about 30mm I reckon. Looks like the problem is solved regarding the melting connection end. I measured only 32deg at the white connection compared to the old one which was 82deg. 90min boil with no dramas.


Fil


----------



## sp0rk

NickB said:


> I pulled one apart when it died and sadly there's not really any way of repairing them - I suppose you could completely pull the element out of the stainless sheath and try to fit another, but it was glued in there pretty well.....
> 
> Use the warranty - that's what it's for!
> 
> Cheers


That ain't gonna work
the spiral inside of the element is usually surrounded my magnesium oxide powder
it's usually filled vertically in a large tower, allowed to settle, swaged to compress the powder then bent to shape, terminated, etc...


Also my guess of the real reason the KK elements were dying
element spirals have a section of solid steel wire soldered to them which protudes a couple of cm into the element, to leave a small length of the element that doesn't get hot
When you make an element, the above process is followed, after which the element is placed in a drying oven to drive out any moisture
you then sandblast a small amount of the magnesium oxide out of the inside of the tube, and fill it with resin or whatever is being used to seal it
if the solid wire at the end of the element is too short, the element will heat the sealing resin and melt it away
moisture then has the chance to get into the element and next time you use it, it shorts out

this is just my partly educated guess having worked for an element manufacturer for a year or so


----------



## Parks

sp0rk said:


> if the solid wire at the end of the element is too short, the element will heat the sealing resin and melt it away
> moisture then has the chance to get into the element and next time you use it, it shorts out
> 
> this is just my partly educated guess having worked for an element manufacturer for a year or so



I don't really think this is the issue as the elements are completely sealed from the inside. I doubt *everyone* who has had them blow up has managed to get moisture in from the outside of the vessel.

I think the more likely scenario is the resin has melted and the wires have actually come close enough together to short.


----------



## sp0rk

Parks said:


> I don't really think this is the issue as the elements are completely sealed from the inside. I doubt *everyone* who has had them blow up has managed to get moisture in from the outside of the vessel.
> 
> I think the more likely scenario is the resin has melted and the wires have actually come close enough together to short.


Even if the resin melts, the spiral still shouldn't touch the sheath, as the insulating powder still holds it in place
if they're using magnesium oxide as the insulating powder, it likes to soak up moisture in the atmosphere, so that would be enough


----------



## Parks

sp0rk said:


> Even if the resin melts, the spiral still shouldn't touch the sheath, as the insulating powder still holds it in place
> if they're using magnesium oxide as the insulating powder, it likes to soak up moisture in the atmosphere, so that would be enough


Makes sense, thanks 

The reason I suggested it might be otherwise is they seem to blow right at the end where the cable joins. Maybe it's just the the sheath is nice and solid which means when it blows it actually blows out toward the cable.


----------



## DJR

Filby said:


> Ran my two new ones last night. They are longer by about 30mm I reckon. Looks like the problem is solved regarding the melting connection end. I measured only 32deg at the white connection compared to the old one which was 82deg. 90min boil with no dramas.
> 
> 
> Fil



That means if i get a replacement it won't fit into my bigw 19L pot as it *just* fits across the bottom of it with about 5mm to spare  I think I have a newer revision anyway which has been OK, touch wood


----------



## joshuahardie

I am 45 mins into a boil with one of the new elements.

The 5cm of power cord nearest to the element is only barely warm that rest of the cord is dead cold

Appears to be an improvement over what others have said about the original elements.


----------



## Red Baron

Lakey said:


> Hey red baron, post any feedback about these new elements im keen to know if they are worth buying.




Well I finally got around to brewing again. The new KK element worked well. I also noticed (as somebody posted above) the wire was not hot as it exits the element (the old one was too hot to touch). I also noticed the plug on the cord was not nearly as hot into the wall socket. No melting/ warping, no burning smell. Zero rust on the element after 2 days also. 

From my one time use of the new elements, I say they work as advertised 100% of the time. I'll update if needed as my statistics get more accurate........



RB.



Ps. Lakey, sorry to hear that your element blew before I post this reply.


----------



## JDW81

Red Baron said:


> Well I finally got around to brewing again. The new KK element worked well. I also noticed (as somebody posted above) the wire was not hot as it exits the element (the old one was too hot to touch). I also noticed the plug on the cord was not nearly as hot into the wall socket. No melting/ warping, no burning smell. Zero rust on the element after 2 days also.
> 
> From my one time use of the new elements, I say they work as advertised 100% of the time. I'll update if needed as my statistics get more accurate........
> 
> 
> 
> RB.
> 
> Ps. Lakey, sorry to hear that your element blew before I post this reply.



Any updates on the "new and improved" element? Am trying to find a suitable one for my HLT, without having to wire one up.

:icon_offtopic: 

Does any one have any experience with the elements sold by grain and grape?

Cheers,

JD


----------



## joshuahardie

3 brews on the new element.
No heating up of the cord, no rust.

At this point in time I am happy


----------



## denemc

I'm interested in one of of the new models to convert a keg to a brew pot. In NZ the urns are expensive and a good one will be up to 5 times the cost of a keg conversion. Is there anyone that has had one of the new models for a while that can comment? I don't want to buy one and have to pay for shipping several times for replacement!

Has anyone put one of these into a 50 litre keg and can comment if they are powerful enough? I'm don't have any DIY skills so can't really go down the road of hot water cylinder element.


----------



## Verbyla

Hairy Goat said:


> I'm interested in one of of the new models to convert a keg to a brew pot. In NZ the urns are expensive and a good one will be up to 5 times the cost of a keg conversion. Is there anyone that has had one of the new models for a while that can comment? I don't want to buy one and have to pay for shipping several times for replacement!
> 
> Has anyone put one of these into a 50 litre keg and can comment if they are powerful enough? I'm don't have any DIY skills so can't really go down the road of hot water cylinder element.


I've got the new element and have had or seen any issues with the elements so far. The orginal problems with the element have been resolved and there has been plenty of positive feedback so I'd say you'd be safe to go with it.

In a 50L keg doing 23L batches I'd recommend using 2 of these elements as I've heard a few people say they struggle to get a nice rolling boil.


----------



## QldKev

It seems one element has had the rust issue from reading a few replies ago.

But looking at the power, being 2200w
I'm running a single Uxcell 2000w in my 1V, which is a 50L keggle conversion. I'm getting nearly 14% boil off in an hour. But I do have it heavily insulated, (as in 3 separate layers worth) and I keep it out of any wind. I have only ever run a standard single batch (23L into fermenter) from it; but at a guess since you are not increasing the diameter of the pot I should be able to push more from it. Also I only start the 60min timer after the hot break / foam has settled back into it.

QldKev


----------



## pommiebloke

Any more feedback about the new model? I'm thinking of getting a couple but only if the issues are truly sorted.

I presume you'd need two to get a decent boil for a double batch (50+ litres).


----------



## JDW81

pommiebloke said:


> Any more feedback about the new model? I'm thinking of getting a couple but only if the issues are truly sorted.
> 
> I presume you'd need two to get a decent boil for a double batch (50+ litres).


Put one in my HLT at the start of the year and haven't had any dramas from it. No sign of rust, or it overheating where it shouldn't. 

I reckon you'd need two if you were trying to boil 50L. My HLT is around that size and one gets me to strike/sparge temp no worries, but a healthy rolling boil would be a different matter.

JD.


----------



## OzPaleAle

We have pretty good consumer laws here, worth checking your rights, these rights cannot be circumvented by exemptions some sellers(mostly eBay, 3 month warranty etc) put on their products.

It souds like there was a problem with them and as it says at the link, the purchaser gets to determine if he gets a repair\refund\replace not the seller.

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/businesses/fair-trading/guarantees-warranties-and-refunds


----------



## kahlerisms

pommiebloke said:


> Any more feedback about the new model? I'm thinking of getting a couple but only if the issues are truly sorted.
> 
> I presume you'd need two to get a decent boil for a double batch (50+ litres).


I am on my third Keg King element. I 1V BIAB in a converted Keg.

First one was the "old model" and one day just started throwing the breaker all of a sudden. Replaced no questions asked with the new model.

Second one: not quite sure what happened there but I made a batch of beer that tasted like ash and I never got the element clean. To this day it's all blackened after hours of Oxyper soaking and scrubbing.
The batch of beer was made while I was... very refreshed we'll say... so I really can't blame the element for it as I dunno if I cut corners or boiled for three hours or did something else stupid.

I paid for element 3 and I've been a bit more cautious with it. I wanna do a QldKev with it and get a pump to make sure the liquid around the element is always churning about. That'll give me a bit more confidence and allow me to do automated ramping and shit with my bag still in the pot. For the moment I tend to single mash or be very very careful to stir the shit out of it if my bag's in the keggle while the element's on.

Would I buy one again? Probably not. I think I'd probably go down the $11 kettle element route. But I quite enjoy the gear hacking and others don't. If you were looking to avoid cutting/wiring anything and had a little more money to spend I'd probably lean towards an over the side element.


----------



## kahlerisms

So an update on Element #3. My last three batches (American Pale, MO Smash, English Barley Wine) all taste identical - burnt and ashy.

Unlike the first time I made an ashy tasting beer (and these three aren't that extreme), there's no evidence on the element of anything scorching or burning. Regardless, even if I wasn't having these issues I can barely get more than a simmer, so I think I'm done with KegKing elements.

So, anyone know of any 2200-2400W elements that'll fit the same hole? Alternatively I gotta find a way to block it up and I'll just use an over-the-side job.

Pretty disappointing


----------



## barls

#355


----------



## JaseH

I cant see how the problems you mention can be specifically attributed to the KK element?

If its not providing enough heat to boil vigorously but is somehow scorching your wort then you may need to go a to much lower heat density rated but higher wattage element for the method of brewing your doing or adjust your method.


----------



## JDW81

kahlerisms said:


> So an update on Element #3. My last three batches (American Pale, MO Smash, English Barley Wine) all taste identical - burnt and ashy.
> 
> Unlike the first time I made an ashy tasting beer (and these three aren't that extreme), there's no evidence on the element of anything scorching or burning. Regardless, even if I wasn't having these issues I can barely get more than a simmer, so I think I'm done with KegKing elements.
> 
> So, anyone know of any 2200-2400W elements that'll fit the same hole? Alternatively I gotta find a way to block it up and I'll just use an over-the-side job.
> 
> Pretty disappointing


What size batches are you brewing? If you are trying to boil 30+ litres with a single element you are going to struggle without some good insulation. I have a new KK element in my HLT and it is fine for that, but I don't need to get it to a rolling boil.

As for ashy flavours, I don't see how the element would give you those flavours in the absence of burning or scorching.

If you are going to plug up the hole and go for an over-the-side element then your best bet is to get something like a stainless plug and have it welded in. I've done this on my HLT and it worked a treat.


----------



## kahlerisms

Hi Guys

I'm aiming to fill a 20L cube. I'm not doing monster batches or anything. I'm not sure what other things could be contributing to this taste - I suppose I should hunt out someone in Melbourne with a trained palette to come taste my beers and confirm my diagnosis.

Regardless, Need moar powar and an over-the-side I borrowed for part of my brew day on Saturday was HEAPS more powerful than my installed element.


----------



## kahlerisms

barls said:


> #355


Cool. I might have a look at this guy to see if he'll fit 

http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/index.php/store/hot-water/elements/kz24hq00.html

thanks


----------



## QldKev

Also the electric brewery uses Camco elements from Amazon, and you can get ultra low watt density ones. Even the low watt density would be ok.

Those stove connection ones look fairly low density too.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

QldKev said:


> Also the electric brewery uses Camco elements from Amazon, and you can get ultra low watt density ones. Even the low watt density would be ok.
> 
> Those stove connection ones look fairly low density too.


So low density is just watts to length, longer sheath and lower watts is best ?
I order low density elements but dont understand the technical attributes.
Nev


----------



## Parks

Gryphon Brewing said:


> So low density is just watts to length, longer sheath and lower watts is best ?
> I order low density elements but dont understand the technical attributes.
> Nev


It's all about power to surface area. 2200W is the total power so that may be 10W/cm2 or it could be 100W/cm2 - big difference on how much wort is in direct contact with the element.


----------



## Yob

Out of interest for those following this thread.

My 2 year old (i think) KK element finally gave out, I wandered in there the other week (Springvale) and merely mentioned that the element had shat itself and was offered a replacement with no questions asked. You can easily see the difference in the 2 of these. It can be noted that I only use mine in the HLT.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Parks said:


> It's all about power to surface area. 2200W is the total power so that may be 10W/cm2 or it could be 100W/cm2 - big difference on how much wort is in direct contact with the element.


Thanks, so my elements are 2.4Kw and have a total length of approx 630mm and a dia of 8mm, how do I work out cm2 ?
And is this considered low density ?
Nev


----------



## booargy

ultra low density element. 3kw 3 phase run at 2.4kw.


----------



## Parks

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Thanks, so my elements are 2.4Kw and have a total length of approx 630mm and a dia of 8mm, how do I work out cm2 ?
> And is this considered low density ?
> Nev


http://www.onlineconversion.com/object_surfacearea_cylinder.htm

Just under 160 cm2 or 15W/cm2


----------



## Parks

The Keg King ones are listed as being 2200W, 25mm diameter and 290mm long which is 237cm2 or 9.3W/cm2


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

booargy said:


> ultra low density element. 3kw 3 phase run at 2.4kw.


Ooh thats a biggin!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Parks said:


> http://www.onlineconversion.com/object_surfacearea_cylinder.htm
> 
> Just under 160 cm2 or 15W/cm2


Cheers, very informative.
Nev


----------



## Parks

booargy said:


> ultra low density element. 3kw 3 phase run at 2.4kw.


Assuming that coil is 8mm and you have a total coil length of 2.2m (4 lengths of 55cm) that would be about 553 or 5.4W/cm2 @ 3KW.


----------



## QldKev

Parks said:


> http://www.onlineconversion.com/object_surfacearea_cylinder.htm
> 
> Just under 160 cm2 or 15W/cm2



But he has 2 x tubes, so surface area is doubled


8mm dia = 25.1mm circumference
x length 630
x 2 (as you have two tubes)

= 316 cm2
2400w / 316
7.59 W/cm2


or was the 630 for the 2 tubes (so 315mm long), so back to Parks calculation


----------



## Parks

QldKev said:


> But he has 2 x tubes, so surface area is doubled
> 
> 
> 8mm dia = 25.1mm circumference
> x length 630
> x 2 (as you have two tubes)
> 
> = 316 cm2
> 2400w / 316
> 7.59 W/cm2


I didn't realise he had 2 tubes, but it makes sense for a small diameter.


----------



## QldKev

Parks said:


> I didn't realise he had 2 tubes, but it makes sense for a small diameter.


Looks like your calculation is correct
From his site:
_Exposed element length approx 300mm_

so 630mm is all up


----------



## booargy

Parks said:


> Assuming that coil is 8mm and you have a total coil length of 2.2m (4 lengths of 55cm) that would be about 553 or 5.4W/cm2 @ 3KW.


3 elements 1000mm each 3.9w/cm2 @3kw no problems with burnt wort . If they would fit my kettle I would have another in a higher wattage.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

QldKev said:


> Looks like your calculation is correct
> From his site:
> _Exposed element length approx 300mm_
> 
> so 630mm is all up


yep total 630mm.


----------



## JaseH

Yob said:


> Out of interest for those following this thread.
> 
> My 2 year old (i think) KK element finally gave out, I wandered in there the other week (Springvale) and merely mentioned that the element had shat itself and was offered a replacement with no questions asked. You can easily see the difference in the 2 of these. It can be noted that I only use mine in the HLT.


Same here, mine was going on 2 years old in my HLT. Didn't completely fail but started smoking and smelling pretty bad so I pulled the plug. Had to wait a few weeks for the new stock to come in but was replaced without hesitation for the new one.


----------



## Camo6

Mines an early one and managed 10 odd brews or so but now I want it to fail so I can replace it . Wonder if they'd replace it if it hadn't failed?


----------



## Yob

pull the shroud off and if it's darkening or has a smell to it... take it in. See teh photo I posted a page back, it starts to become fairly obvious if it's failing.

I could smell mine before I saw it.


----------



## sp0rk

Camo6 said:


> Mines an early one and managed 10 odd brews or so but now I want it to fail so I can replace it . Wonder if they'd replace it if it hadn't failed?


Well if you want it to last, i sure wouldn't store it in a moist environment h34r:


----------



## punkin

kahlerisms said:


> So an update on Element #3. My last three batches (American Pale, MO Smash, English Barley Wine) all taste identical - burnt and ashy.
> 
> Unlike the first time I made an ashy tasting beer (and these three aren't that extreme), there's no evidence on the element of anything scorching or burning. Regardless, even if I wasn't having these issues I can barely get more than a simmer, so I think I'm done with KegKing elements.
> 
> So, anyone know of any 2200-2400W elements that'll fit the same hole? Alternatively I gotta find a way to block it up and I'll just use an over-the-side job.
> 
> Pretty disappointing



Not trying to but in with a plug, but if you are genuinely stuck for an alternative i have 25mm bsp elements (32mm diameter threads) that i believe will fit in the hole if you use a backing nut.
They are a variety of wattages from 2400 to 4800 and a variety of densities to fit different sized pots. The 2400 ones have about 900mm of 8mm element and the low density 3600 ones have over a metre, the ultra lows more again.

http://www.stilldragon.com.au/elements-guards-and-controller-kits/

Apologies if this is against rules and i will delete it if so, but it's posted in direct response to the question.


----------



## kahlerisms

punkin said:


> Apologies if this is against rules and i will delete it if so, but it's posted in direct response to the question.


I certainly appreciate it and will look into those elements - I woulda liked to avoid having to have something wired up, though if it solves my problem I'm willing to entertain any options.


----------



## pedleyr

punkin said:


> Not trying to but in with a plug, but if you are genuinely stuck for an alternative i have 25mm bsp elements (32mm diameter threads) that i believe will fit in the hole if you use a backing nut.
> They are a variety of wattages from 2400 to 4800 and a variety of densities to fit different sized pots. The 2400 ones have about 900mm of 8mm element and the low density 3600 ones have over a metre, the ultra lows more again.
> 
> http://www.stilldragon.com.au/elements-guards-and-controller-kits/
> 
> Apologies if this is against rules and i will delete it if so, but it's posted in direct response to the question.


I was actually looking at your elements this morning. 

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't need a ferrule welded to my kettle for them do I? I can just use a backing nut and a gasket?


----------



## punkin

They will screw into a 25mm thread, so you can weld in a 25mm socket.. I've never tried using them as weldless as they usually fit with our element guards.

I can't see a reason why not, though i don't know for sure. I bet someone on here has tried it before though. I would think that it depends on the diameter of the pot you are trying to seal.

I don't warrant them to fit that way.


----------



## QldKev

With the electric brewery as few people have used the $11 Camco elements with a nut, Amazon often prompts you with the nut and silicone o-ring.


----------



## JaseH

punkin said:


> I can't see a reason why not, though i don't know for sure. I bet someone on here has tried it before though. I would think that it depends on the diameter of the pot you are trying to seal.



I have one of those elements and use a backing nut, works fine. They are a quality element.


----------



## Newts

Hey guys,

Got this element about 2 months ago then started reading this thread - wish I'd read it before. I mounted it in my keggle and this is the element after boiling 20L of water 4-5 times. 








Thinking I'll use some Barkeepers Friend on it and get rid of what rust I can. Can't see myself getting all of it. The part where the element joins the nut seems to be the biggest concern.

Anyone know how I might clean that up? I did try getting it apart but didn't want to force it too much - might break something.

Newts


----------



## JDW81

Can you send it back and get a refund/replacement? Probably your best option.


----------



## Glot

Remember, rust breeds rust. An object with rust on it may contaminate other stainless steel and cause it to also start rusting. Stainless steel is really rust resistant. Not rust proof.
As some general knowledge that too many consumers are not aware of:
Irrespective of what warranty is offered on a product, under law, you have consumer guarantees. One of those is that a product should last as long as would be expected for that quality of product.
A warranty is just a promise made by the warrantor and may include anything. When you are told something has a 12 month warranty, look at what the warranty actually covers. Also, is it a manufacturer's warranty or a retailer's warranty?
Manufacturers/ importers/ distributers know when they have an issue with a product. They will try work around replacing it if they can for economic reasons. Premium brands usually are better to deal with as they have their reputation to protect. At the other end of the scale, they will try anything to avoid a claim. I have worked for a large appliance company and we used to rely on the consumers ignorance to come to a satisfactory conclusion......for us.
With any product, just know your rights and stand firm.


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Just a quick bump...... I have the "new and improved" version. Iwill be replacing them after a quick zap I had tonight. The new ones will be strictly replacements and will be used when needed as a last resort. STAY AWAY FROM THESE ELEMENTS. Sorry to those who sell these, but its time these fuckers were taken off the market.


----------



## GalBrew

Out of curiosity, in what capacity were you using the element? HLT, Kettle? I use one on my HERMS setup, but use different elements on my HLT (kettle is gas).


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

GalBrew said:


> Out of curiosity, in what capacity were you using the element? HLT, Kettle? I use one on my HERMS setup, but use different elements on my HLT (kettle is gas).


Mate, I use two when I brew. Biab 18gal keg.... but when they fail, like they ALWAYS DO...I like to know what my options are.


----------



## Camo6

Jeez, I must of got lucky with mine. Usually, when I buy something, I always seem to get the bung one. But my KK element, which is a series one or two, is still going strong after countless brews. Mind you it's on my HLT which is well insulated and once it hits temps it rarely comes back on for more than half a minute. I'm not advocating that these are a safe product though, this thread is clear proof they're not. It seems like they were built way too light for intended purposes and while they might suffice for light work they are clearly not suitable for extended use and therefore unsafe for our safety standards in Australia.


----------



## Newts

Hmmm, i posted last time and thought cause there's so many posts on this subject mine would just disappear, but it hasn't moved far. On that, I took it back in for a trade - no problem with the vendor but I got the new one and it's exactly the same. Boiled once and it has the same rusting problem. I'd post photos but you can look at the last one and it's the same. Dunno what to do about this one, I don't mind the 40-50 bucks. The thing that shits me is the hole in my keggle that I could have avoided...


----------



## booargy

Newts said:


> Hmmm, i posted last time and thought cause there's so many posts on this subject mine would just disappear, but it hasn't moved far. On that, I took it back in for a trade - no problem with the vendor but I got the new one and it's exactly the same. Boiled once and it has the same rusting problem. I'd post photos but you can look at the last one and it's the same. Dunno what to do about this one, I don't mind the 40-50 bucks. The thing that shits me is the hole in my keggle that I could have avoided...


It is called stain less not stain proof. because it needs to be cleaned to stay shiny

it is not that bad 1inch BSP plug and lock nut will fix it. come to think of it 1inch BSP element will fit through it aswell A 50mm tri clamp and element housing from punkin would be even better. some good options.


----------



## keifer33

Newts said:


> Hmmm, i posted last time and thought cause there's so many posts on this subject mine would just disappear, but it hasn't moved far. On that, I took it back in for a trade - no problem with the vendor but I got the new one and it's exactly the same. Boiled once and it has the same rusting problem. I'd post photos but you can look at the last one and it's the same. Dunno what to do about this one, I don't mind the 40-50 bucks. The thing that shits me is the hole in my keggle that I could have avoided...


Hit up Nev and he can at least sort you out with something, alas not plug and play but at least the plug part - http://gryphonbrewing.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=83&products_id=602


----------



## TheWiggman

I've got the 3600W and 2400W Gryphon elements in my system. Haven't given the 2400W a whirl yet but the build quality is on par with the other unit, and it's excellent. 
I upgraded because my Keg King element went down to earth.


----------



## QldKev

*Non Moderator hat: posted as me.*

One of my NEW MODEL keg king elements decided to start raising a ground fault today on it's 4th use. I'm over this company and their shit products. How long before the second one goes out in true form. I've now thrown 2 of the old model away at my loss. With the promise of the new model being reliable I tried them again, as it was an easy way to reuse the same hole. So element number 3 will be thrown to the bin as Keg King expect me to return their shit products at my expense even though they know they keep failing.


----------



## Batz

QldKev said:


> *Non Moderator hat: posted as me.*
> 
> One of my NEW MODEL keg king elements decided to start raising a ground fault today on it's 4th use. I'm over this company and their shit products. How long before the second one goes out in true form. I've now thrown 2 of the old model away at my loss. With the promise of the new model being reliable I tried them again, as it was an easy way to reuse the same hole. So element number 3 will be thrown to the bin as Keg King expect me to return their shit products at my expense even though they know they keep failing.


You don't like them do you Kev?? 

I can't believe people keep buying them, get decent element . I bought one some 15 years ago and I bet whoever owns my old HLT, has never had a problem with it.


----------



## Grainer

I get my elements from Barling elements in cheltenham.. that is where 2 brothers get there stuff from.. good quality.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

keifer33 said:


> Hit up Nev and he can at least sort you out with something, alas not plug and play but at least the plug part - http://gryphonbrewing.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=83&products_id=602


Thanks Kiefer
We will have plug and play very shortly just waiting on the element end enclosures.
Nev


----------



## elcarter

I ordered one for a lad, told him the reviews online but didn't phase him he insisted I order it.

I've just ordered 36 camco elements from the states, I suspect he will be buying one in the near future.


----------



## Yob

One of the 'old' ones listed 2 years for me and was replaced without question.. 

When buying a product like this, it's true that it should be measured in multiple years.. 

I defer to folks that have already been there and done that.. But..

For me, and let it be said I have no affiliation. Service cannot be faulted... Well except for the eventual failure of the old unit...


----------



## QldKev

My only problem is no local suppliers for it, so I have to pay the return of the product. I waited a while before ordering the new ones thinking they had sorted out their issues. Last time I think I will ever be buying a Keg King product, when you have a look on here at how many different Keg King items let people down.


----------



## idzy

Yob said:


> One of the 'old' ones listed 2 years for me and was replaced without question..
> 
> When buying a product like this, it's true that it should be measured in multiple years..
> 
> I defer to folks that have already been there and done that.. But..
> 
> For me, and let it be said I have no affiliation. Service cannot be faulted... Well except for the eventual failure of the old unit...


Same happened with me too Yob. Took 3 elements down and replaced them on the spot, brand new ones in box. I wasn't even going to consider it, but Ro55co mentioned to give it a shot and they were overly helpful.


----------



## lael

Kev, I would call them and ask to speak to Kee (the owner I think) - he has been very helpful and has gone out of his way to help if I have ever had an issue with his products.


----------



## lukiferj

Slightly OT but I use a number of Keg King products and have never had an issue with any of them. Kee has always been happy to have a chat over the phone when I have had questions. I haven;t used the elements but certainly use and would buy from again. Their temp control units are great.


----------



## QldKev

idzy said:


> Same happened with me too Yob. Took 3 elements down and replaced them on the spot, brand new ones in box. I wasn't even going to consider it, but Ro55co mentioned to give it a shot and they were overly helpful.


You needed to take 3 elements back. :huh:


----------



## Cocko

QldKev said:


> My only problem is no local suppliers for it, so I have to pay the return of the product. I waited a while before ordering the new ones thinking they had sorted out their issues. Last time I think I will ever be buying a Keg King product, when you have a look on here at how many different Keg King items let people down.


When do you not have to cover cost to get a faulting product back to the supplier?

If you buy a TV from Harvey Norman, get it home and it is fine for 4 months... then it faults, does HN offer pre paid couriers to return the item?

I consider KK as a very reputable retailer... with good product, they stand behind, with good service.. seems it is reflected, above.

10c.


----------



## jyo

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Thanks Kiefer
> We will have plug and play very shortly just waiting on the element end enclosures.
> Nev


Sounds rad, Nev.


----------



## Yob

Cocko said:


> When do you not have to cover cost to get a faulting product back to the supplier? If you buy a TV from Harvey Norman, get it home and it is fine for 4 months... then it faults, does HN offer pre paid couriers to return the item? I consider KK as a very reputable retailer... with good product, they stand behind, with good service.. seems it is reflected, above. 10c.


Under Australian consumer law, you can,actually claim to cover 'reasonable' costs to return a faulty item, they cannot refuse.


----------



## Cocko

Yob said:


> Under Australian consumer law, you can,actually claim to cover 'reasonable' costs to return a faulty item, they cannot refuse.



The "law" says a lot of things... The "Reality" is often different...

Interesting though, cheers!


----------



## Camo6

But they're still pretty firm on public nudity and exposure mate. Deal with it Cocko.


----------



## Cocko

"firm" hehehe..


----------



## QldKev

Cocko said:


> When do you not have to cover cost to get a faulting product back to the supplier?
> 
> If you buy a TV from Harvey Norman, get it home and it is fine for 4 months... then it faults, does HN offer pre paid couriers to return the item?
> 
> I consider KK as a very reputable retailer... with good product, they stand behind, with good service.. seems it is reflected, above.
> 
> 10c.





Yob said:


> Under Australian consumer law, you can,actually claim to cover 'reasonable' costs to return a faulty item, they cannot refuse.



The home theater amp in my lounge is playing up. I contacted the warranty agent and they have sent me a free post label to send it to them.


Have a search on here,there is a quite a few 'my product is broken' threads related back to their products. Of the top of my head I recall, heating elements, rusting kegs with poor welds, leaking keg posts, leaking keg disconnects, silicone hose, mills and this is just what I recall as I type. These are not what I have started, but people on here. I don't know their entire product range, I only see what is posted on here. To me for the type of equipment we are talking about a good supplier with a good product provides something that lasts for many years. It's not just rated by failing units that is easily exchanged for another if you happen to live close to the supplier. How would you feel if every few months the element in your HWS needed replacing, or you had to take back your fridge for a replacement every few months?


----------



## fcmcg

I know for a fact that a supplier on here , has stopped stocking a range of Keg king stuff because its cheap Chinese rubbish.This same supplier is then often labeled as too expensive as he stocks the quality , genuine product that is often more expensive .
This supplier showed me some keg king erlenmyer type sample flasks that we a quarter of the price of the schott 5 litre ones...who would buy this type of flask when it has air bubbles in it...
This supplier got sick of returning stuff to Kee....
Onto consumer law...
Caveat emptor...it's Latin and it means buyer beware..


----------



## JaseH

I've purchased a lot of stuff from Keg King over the last few years. I had one of the original elements which I knew was a faulty design due to all the failure reports, regardless it lasted nearly 2 years before finally starting to fail and I returned it for one of the new designs, no questions asked, no receipt or proof of purchase, just handed it over and they gave me the new one. New one has been fine so far.

I think you need to consider price when buying stuff. Keg King prices are very low, when paying very low prices you need to wear some responsibility that the quality your getting may not be up there with stuff 2 or 3 times the price. If you cant handle that or the hassle of returning something yourself when there's a problem then you really need to spend more money - its that simple.


----------



## timmi9191

I'm with you frothie. Purchasers need to take responsibility for the decisions they make when buying. in this day of information overload, if you choose not to research the product or do research it and take the cheaper option then that decision is yours and you are responsible for it. stop the brand bashing!

I have purchased probably 90% of my equipment there, only problem I've had is with a keg disconnect. Hardly an issue really.

They have been more than helpful on every occasion I've been there.

Ps no affiliation


----------



## pcmfisher

Cocko said:


> When do you not have to cover cost to get a faulting product back to the supplier?
> 
> *If you buy a TV from Harvey Norman, get it home and it is fine for 4 months... then it faults, does HN offer pre paid couriers to return the item?*
> 
> I consider KK as a very reputable retailer... with good product, they stand behind, with good service.. seems it is reflected, above.
> 
> 10c.


No, you ring up the warranty line from the manufacturer and they send around a repair man.
They did for me anyway.


----------



## idzy

QldKev said:


> You needed to take 3 elements back. :huh:


Yeah one was broken so I took them all back.


----------



## QldKev

QldKev said:


> *Non Moderator hat: posted as me.*
> 
> One of my NEW MODEL keg king elements decided to start raising a ground fault today on it's 4th use. I'm over this company and their shit products. How long before the second one goes out in true form. I've now thrown 2 of the old model away at my loss. With the promise of the new model being reliable I tried them again, as it was an easy way to reuse the same hole. So element number 3 will be thrown to the bin as Keg King expect me to return their shit products at my expense even though they know they keep failing.


In my last post I asked _"How long before the second one goes out in true form."_ This morning I found out the answer, 6 weeks. A bang and a blue flame shoots out the side of the element. So that is both of the new model elements I purchased that has now died. Once again this company works out to be a very expensive place to shop as I now need to purchase 2 different elements to replace them.


----------



## sp0rk

QldKev said:


> In my last post I asked _"How long before the second one goes out in true form."_ This morning I found out the answer, 6 weeks. A bang and a blue flame shoots out the side of the element. So that is both of the new model elements I purchased that has now died. Once again this company works out to be a very expensive place to shop as I now need to purchase 2 different elements to replace them.


Hmmm, I'm seriously thinking about taking a keg king element to my local element manufacturer and asking if they can make something similar for under $80 or so
If I can get something made up and at a decent price, it may be an alternative to these dodgy elements


----------



## southcoastbrewer

Funny u say this, my one flash banged this morning and melted my plug to it's plug ... It was in my HLT.... I dunno what to do now... I'm considering one of those huge elements from the electric brewery but I'm unsure how to wire it myself.. Water and leccy is somthing I don't like playing with... Ffs, again, I also have to post mine back.. ***** fucked... Keg king needs to get their shit together


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Was thinking of Thermal Electric Elements Spork ( since there on your doorstep )...I would bet they would have something in there catalog that would suit. But they also make custom jobs no problem.

Maybe you could get a bulk buy deal. **** the chinese shit. Buy locally made aussie ones.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

http://www.thermalelectric.com.au/products-immersion.php


----------



## Bridges

Are these the same as keg king elements? I'm looking at different elements for a build at the moment and I guess the attraction of this style is price and plug and play. Not many positive reviews though for the KK ones. 

edit - spellen


----------



## GalBrew

Bridges said:


> Are these the same as keg king elements? I'm looking at different elements for a build at the moment and I guess the attraction of this style is price and plug and play. Not many positive reviews though for the KK ones.
> 
> edit - spellen


Yep, that is a KK element in the flesh.

You will also note that the eBay seller in question sells a lot of KK stuff.


----------



## sp0rk

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Was thinking of Thermal Electric Elements Spork ( since there on your doorstep )...I would bet they would have something in there catalog that would suit. But they also make custom jobs no problem.
> 
> Maybe you could get a bulk buy deal. **** the chinese shit. Buy locally made aussie ones.


That's exactly where I was going to go
I used to work there 
Just need to see if they can do a weldless setup like the KK element


----------



## GalBrew

Has anyone used one of these for any extended length of time and not had it explode? I have one of the new models in my HERMS and am considering giving it the flick. Already had my Chinese gas burner leak gas and fire everywhere, I am kind of over it,


----------



## sp0rk

I've got one that's never been used...


----------



## booargy

I could be wrong but these are designed for high heat short duration. they are also designed to fit in a sheath and the terminals contained in an enclosure. I have worked on them in hydrogen driers the terminal enclosure is 25mm thick steel.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_odkw=cartridge+heater&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=cartridge+heating+element&_sacat=0


----------



## pat_00

I have 20-25 brews on my KK element no problems. Am maybe going to incorporate it into a herms tube at some point


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

sp0rk said:


> That's exactly where I was going to go
> I used to work there
> Just need to see if they can do a weldless setup like the KK element


Cant see why they cant. They do just about anything. I reckon there would be a market for an aussie made SS element. 

Your the man Spork. You still got contacts there. I put the phone system in there a few yesrs back and they where really nice to deal with. I remember asking them about an element for a kettle to make beer. The response was " your a home brewer....yep....we can do something up fairly easly"


----------



## sp0rk

The owners go to my gym, I'll have to have a chat with them next time I see them
I'm sure if they can see the profit in it, they'd be able to do an element up
Maybe even some purpose built controllers, too


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Good thing is they can make straight, round,coils...all sorts of shapes. 

The good thing is that thay can tailor the element to suit vessel size, shape & volumefor optimum performance.

They wont be $40 ..... But you will get a superior product that will last. But as they say...you get what you pay for.

Wonder if its worth talking the our retailers about stocking them. Be a win win all round.


----------



## sp0rk

When I worked there, it wasn't very common to get any elements coming back
Any retailers that are watching this thread, would this be something you'd be interested in stocking?


----------



## billygoat

QldKev said:


> In my last post I asked _"How long before the second one goes out in true form."_ This morning I found out the answer, 6 weeks. A bang and a blue flame shoots out the side of the element. So that is both of the new model elements I purchased that has now died. Once again this company works out to be a very expensive place to shop as I now need to purchase 2 different elements to replace them.


Kev,
I use these elements in my kettle.
http://www.ibrew.com.au/collections/gas-burners-heating-elements/products/heating-element-2400w
For anyone who wants plug and play these fit the bill.
Have done about 25-30 brews with these without any problems.
In my HLT and HERMs I just use $8 kettle elements. After 3 years have not had any problems with them either.


----------



## MaltyHops

GalBrew said:


> Has anyone used one of these for any extended length of time and not had it explode? I have one of the new models in my HERMS and am considering giving it the flick. Already had my Chinese gas burner leak gas and fire everywhere, I am kind of over it,


I modified mine (original model) after having made about a half-doz brews - so far so good, fingers crossed.



_[zoom]_


----------



## QldKev

I ended up buying some new elements. The supplier of these claims he has never had a return. No more dodgy Keg King shit to try and kill me. Only thing is I need to get a plug hooked up by an electrician.


----------



## Camo6

Damn. They look hot (pun intended). Any chance of a link or price ( in a separate thread if need be). Me likey.


----------



## QldKev

Camo6 said:


> Damn. They look hot (pun intended). Any chance of a link or price ( in a separate thread if need be). Me likey.


They are $89.95 each. That includes the elements and the housing including the tri-clamps etc, all in 304 stainless. Also they are 2400w.


----------



## Camo6

Thanks Kev. Keen to know how they go. What length is the element? I'd like to upgrade my hermit kettle element and this might suit.


----------



## idzy

QldKev said:


> They are $89.95 each. That includes the elements and the housing including the tri-clamps etc, all in 304 stainless. Also they are 2400w.


Look great QldKev, where abouts did you get them?


----------



## keifer33

I got one of those for my HLT to test them out and I must say they are mighty fine. I got mine from a local supplier Brewmart but I belive 5 Star Distilling are the main seller as they have an etching on them.

http://www.5stardistilling.net/weldless-2400w-element-guard/


----------



## StalkingWilbur

I'm running two of those 5star ones in a 70L BIAB and they definitely do the job.


----------



## spog

QldKev said:


> They are $89.95 each. That includes the elements and the housing including the tri-clamps etc, all in 304 stainless. Also they are 2400w.


 Easy cleaning with those elements,Kev what is the diameter of the whole for mounting ?
Cheers..spog...
Umm,just put my glasses on and found out myself,


----------



## QldKev

Camo6 said:


> Thanks Kev. Keen to know how they go. What length is the element? I'd like to upgrade my hermit kettle element and this might suit.


The element in the kettle is 235mm. Overall length is 350mm.

I'll get them hooked up today so will post a pic of them installed. First test is in the morning. Hopefully we have found a decent grade stainless element that will last.



spog said:


> Easy cleaning with those elements,Kev what is the diameter of the whole for mounting ?
> Cheers..spog...
> Umm,just put my glasses on and found out myself,


Just for anyone else reading, 1"BSP / 32mm which is the same as the Keg King element. Although I noticed the thread is a bit deeper on these new elements so I need to machine my hole out a bit, but the nuts are still interchangeable.




You can also buy just the element without the bling housing, so then you could use a diecast enclosure etc.


----------



## QldKev

They are installed and tested. :wub:






Time will tell now how they last. They sure look nice, but I should have polished them up for the pic.


----------



## TidalPete

> You can also buy just the element without the bling housing, so then you could use a diecast enclosure etc.


Might be interested in this?

Does anyone know if they will fit inside a HERM-IT ss HEX coil?

Too long?


----------



## QldKev

TidalPete said:


> Might be interested in this?
> 
> Does anyone know if they will fit inside a HERM-IT ss HEX coil?
> 
> Too long?



These protude into the kettle/HERMS 235mm, the main windings on the coil is 160mm.


----------



## TidalPete

Thanks Kev.

They are too long then if overall coil length is only 260mm as mentioned in another thread.
you would need a depth of 260mm minimum under the lid to fully immerse the element.


----------



## jonnir

The elements seem to be the goods so far but don't expect much after sales support. There was a bloke who had an issue with one of his elements and when he brought it up on the forum it was quickly deleted and the bloke banned. Not sure if the bloke got a replacement or not in the end.


----------



## spog

QldKev said:


> The element in the kettle is 235mm. Overall length is 350mm.I'll get them hooked up today so will post a pic of them installed. First test is in the morning. Hopefully we have found a decent grade stainless element that will last. Just for anyone else reading, 1"BSP / 32mm which is the same as the Keg King element. Although I noticed the thread is a bit deeper on these new elements so I need to machine my hole out a bit, but the nuts are still interchangeable.You can also buy just the element without the bling housing, so then you could use a diecast enclosure etc.


Thanks for that Kev,I think the holes in my keggle are 32 mm ,I currently have 2 Kmart kettle elements in it so at some stage I may upgrade.
The elements you have compared to those I use would cut cleaning times by a hell of a lot.
Cheers....spog..


----------



## denemc

How is everyone finding the 5 star elements? I've just had one of my two keg king elements blow and I'm looking for something that easily slots in. These look really similar to the keg king ones and I thought maybe they are manufactured in the same factory just with better wiring.

I thought about the "butterfly" shaped ones at ibrew but they look like a pain to clean. Plus my chiller would snap them off pretty quickly.


----------



## StalkingWilbur

I've got two 5 star. Been going strong for about six months. Even after we had a tonne of crap burn onto them and they had to be soaked and boiled with a cleaner and scraped off, they're still going good.


----------



## Yob

jonnir said:


> The elements seem to be the goods so far but don't expect much after sales support. There was a bloke who had an issue with one of his elements and when he brought it up on the forum it was quickly deleted and the bloke banned. Not sure if the bloke got a replacement or not in the end.


You what? Gotta be more to it than just product review


----------



## sp0rk

Hairy Goat said:


> How is everyone finding the 5 star elements? I've just had one of my two keg king elements blow and I'm looking for something that easily slots in. These look really similar to the keg king ones and I thought maybe they are manufactured in the same factory just with better wiring.
> 
> I thought about the "butterfly" shaped ones at ibrew but they look like a pain to clean. Plus my chiller would snap them off pretty quickly.


I'm about to buy 2 of them for certain purposes...
I've heard nothing but good things about them, the guy that owns 5 Star said they are made in China, but he's pretty rigorous with the quality control from them


----------



## denemc

Can anyone tell me the diameter of the actual element (5 star)? My current keg king ones are close together and any bigger and they won't fit.


----------



## sp0rk

Hairy Goat said:


> Can anyone tell me the diameter of the actual element (5 star)? My current keg king ones are close together and any bigger and they won't fit.


Weldless or screw in?


----------



## fraser_john

Are these Keg King elements the same one that Craftbrewer sells? I just converted my kettle to electric and used the Craftbrewer one, only brewed twice, but even though it is 2200W rated, still need an extra over the side element to keep a good boil going.

Kicking myself for down grading to a 10A only supply instead of the 20A I had at the last house :angry:


----------



## TheWiggman

The very same fraser_john. I'd advise you to take good care of the over-the-side unit, because chances are it'll be your only element soon enough


----------



## jayahhdee

Ive gor a 5star element that I am in the process of installing in a new boiler.

Very impressed with the build quality, yet to run it but have heard plenty of good reports elsewhere


----------



## jonnir

Yob said:


> You what? Gotta be more to it than just product review


No idea mate, I just see what I see over there. A bloke says something about his gear and the post and user moved on promptly.

Haven't had a drama yet with the one I've got but as said, don't hold out much for after sales service.


----------



## Eagleburger

Would the 3600W burn the wort? I want to boil 50-60l, in your experience what wattage is needed?


----------



## TheWiggman

I use a 3600W element, boils like the blazes. Can't see why it'd get any hotter than the 2400W, just pumps more energy in. 50-60l would be a good size for it, it's overkill for 28l. 
No my beer does not taste burnt.


----------



## pedleyr

Doesn't more energy in over the same surface area = hotter? If not, where is the energy going?


----------



## TheWiggman

The 3600W element I use is longer than my 2400W overall. More surface area = more energy for same J/m^2 in this case. 
For a case of a boiling tub of liquid, my understanding is the liquid maintains the surface temp of the element at its boiling point. As soon as it's hit, the liquid vaporises, escapes, and the next bit of near-boiling liquid touches it and converts to a gas. Hence the more energy the more vigorous the boil, but not necessarily more heat at the element. 
In reality the element surface will probably be ever so slightly hotter on an element with more power per unit area, but for all practical purposes this would be irrelevant. 
Happy to be corrected.


----------



## pedleyr

Ok so it's more surface area, question answered. My post was qualified by asking if it's the same energy over the same surface area.

The element with higher watt density will get hotter, it's inescapable isn't it, otherwise the energy vanishes. It may well be that it just boils the water touching it faster, but that means there is more heat generated, it is just being extracted by changing the state of the liquid.


----------



## fraser_john

Yep, it is all about W/mm^2(power density), the higher wattage elements usually have a double folded length and sometimes the power density is actually lower than the lower wattage elements!

The concern with power density is wort scorching or excessive caramelisation of the wort during the boil resulting in darker wort (not good for pilsners and other pale beers). To be honest though, I've not heard of anyone using an electric kettle having the problem, be interested in hearing stories of those that have though.

Even when I was running a RIMS instead of a HERMS, I had no trouble with direct contact of the wort on the element while ramping step temps.


----------



## bradsbrew

Would 2 of the 2400's boil 100-120L?


----------



## fraser_john

bradsbrew said:


> Would 2 of the 2400's boil 100-120L?


Based on what I have seen with a 2200W one in my kettle, even with 1" of insulation around the outside and underneath, two 2400's would struggle to maintain a good rolling boil in 120L :unsure:

But....it is hard to tell, maybe they could keep the heat going better than a single???????


----------



## Kingy

My keg king element blew a blue flame out the side of my pot on Sunday after about 4 boil ups with it over about 6months, mainly just for cleaning things.
While I was happy with the unit,fit and boil time. It was my only keg king product purchase ever and I will never purchase another product from them again. Dead set rediculous and dangerous. I was about 1foot away from the 1-2foot blue flame/spark that sounded like a small fire cracker, scared the shit outta me.


----------



## QldKev

bradsbrew said:


> Would 2 of the 2400's boil 100-120L?


I have 6000w for a 130L pre-boil, even with an insulated kettle it is the minimum.


----------



## denemc

I was out of the room when mine blew, but that's exactly how I would describe it. Sounded just like a firecracker.

Going to order a couple of the five star tomorrow, and all going well will get another for an hlt in the future. I like the idea of stainless steel as it seems easier to clean. Plus its got the going factor!


----------



## denemc

When it says the 5 Start Weldless 2400 watt elements are ready to be wired by the electrician, is this just a simple job of attaching getting a cable and plug attached or is it more complicated than that?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

I have 3 phase 9KW in my 100L system and wort jumps out of the kettle, I now have a controller to dial back the Kw and it can maintain the boil nicely.
Nev


----------



## Maheel

Hairy Goat said:


> When it says the 5 Start Weldless 2400 watt elements are ready to be wired by the electrician, is this just a simple job of attaching getting a cable and plug attached or is it more complicated than that?


i would say YES but also consider how you earth it as they only have two wires on the element with no earth


----------



## sp0rk

As per the bloke that owns 5 Star, you need to earth the element to your pot/keggle and then back through the lead
He either sells an element enclosure that you can earth through, or he says you can use 2 x 2" copper end caps pop riveted to a small section of 2" copper pipe as the enclosure (hole in one endcap for the element, and a hole in the other endcap for a cable gland to put your cable thru), then connect your earth to the enclosure, then to the pot/keggle


----------



## Kingy

Wish I could just buy one already to go and just plug her in,feel safe and off I go. Shit how ya gotta get em wired up. 
I've got 2 x2400 16amp elements that I was gunna wire up my self. But a bit scared to after my keg king one blew up.
To scared to ring a leco as my wallet is thin lol.


----------



## BungBrew

I had my KK element fail yesterday, it has done 13 batches so around 25 hours use since November. Turned it on and it arced and tripped the breaker.


----------



## Eagleburger

Plastic coated wire, next to and attached with a conductor to a heating element. What could go wrong?


----------



## denemc

I ordered a couple of the weldless elements with the housing/guard from 5 Star... the only problem now is how do the housings get assembled! There'[s no instructions and I'm a gumby when it comes to this sort of thing!


----------



## pedleyr

Is the element housing in the 5 star elements earthed or is a separate earth needed for the kettle? 

My KK element hasn't died yet but one of my kids was touching my kettle on the weekend while it was on, little bastard opened up the shed door without me knowing, which made me realise that I can't **** around with it any more, need better processes across the board. Top of the list is binning the KK element. Also a lock on the door if I'm leaving it unattended.


----------



## QldKev

pedleyr said:


> Is the element housing in the 5 star elements earthed or is a separate earth needed for the kettle?
> 
> My KK element hasn't died yet but one of my kids was touching my kettle on the weekend while it was on, little bastard opened up the shed door without me knowing, which made me realise that I can't **** around with it any more, need better processes across the board. Top of the list is binning the KK element. Also a lock on the door if I'm leaving it unattended.


I've got the weldless element and guard kits, it has an earth point on the guard. I'm not sure on the other ones.


----------



## pedleyr

Cheers Kev that's exactly what I was after.


----------



## denemc

Got my new 5 Star Elements in and going. They are fantastic, although I've only done a wet test and haven't done and actual brew yet. They seem to be a quality piece of equipment - I got them wired professionally and the electrician said they were good. I love the element guards, they were easy to assemble, I could have wired them myself, and they just slot in where the keg king ones were. Here's a short video of when I first fired them up.

http://youtu.be/hl7tVSU5mIs

They certainly beat the pants of the Keg King ones, you can feel the extra heat, the boil is ferocious and the time to boil is considerably better.


----------



## Kingy

I've just installed one in one of my pots and in my herms heat exchanger. Nice bit of gear that's for sure.
How much you boiling with 2 elements?


----------



## denemc

I've got a 70 litre pot and will be doing double batches. The 2 x Keg King handled it easily so the extra power will be a bonus.


----------



## HardEight

Kingy said:


> My keg king element blew a blue flame out the side of my pot on Sunday after about 4 boil ups with it over about 6months, mainly just for cleaning things.
> While I was happy with the unit,fit and boil time. It was my only keg king product purchase ever and I will never purchase another product from them again. Dead set rediculous and dangerous. I was about 1foot away from the 1-2foot blue flame/spark that sounded like a small fire cracker, scared the shit outta me.


Wow this just happened to me too. I have only used mine to hold temps in the HLT, never past 78deg, for a handful of brews.
Lucky I was wearing the brown undies and the element was behind the vessel and not facing me when it blew!
I don't think I will be replacing it with another KK one.


----------



## SimoB

When I went in there last week they were going through another design phase. This must be like the third time... Im not sure they have them in stock now or not though


----------



## barls

just a though has anyone reported them to fair trading for supplying a known faulty product which more than likely doesnt meet the standards and more than likely will injure someone at some stage.


----------



## Simpsoid

Can anyone with the 5 star element with the guard post a pic of inside it? I'd like to see how the earthing is connected. Thanks.


----------



## denemc

Mine's all secured into my pot so I don't really want to take it to bits, but it's basically like a little lug or screw that you screw down on the inside.. I showed an electrician and he said it was good.

I'm really happy with both the elements and guards. They were easy to assemble and even an idiot like me can do it. They look great, and the boil from the elements is incredible. They are light years better than the Keg King ones and would buy them again if I needed more.


----------



## denemc

Actually, if you look at these they are really similar.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Heating-Element-Adapter-Stainless-Steel-1-5-Tri-Clover-X-1-NPS-RIMS-Tube/1564035671.html


----------



## denemc

A quick video of my boil. I am very happy! 2 x 5 Star weldless elements with their fancy element covers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t6Qs8dFf1M


----------



## HardEight

Craftbrewer have the 'new' KK elements in stock.
Looks just like the last version but with a molded rubber seal over the cable outlet.

Have replaced it with the last KK one of mine that blew up.
Will be testing the 'new' version tomorrow (fingers crossed).


----------



## sp0rk

I'd say they're actually sealing them now, instead of just covering them
My opinion is that they've never actually been sealed properly, atomospheric moisture has been ingressing and you get a short/earth leakage


----------



## denemc

Every new model they claim to have fixed it and every new model does the blue flame trick. I'm staying away no matter what they say now!


----------



## fraser_john

Cripes, brewing this w/e with mine and it will be the sixth time I've used it. I noted last time I brewed that the electrical cord as it exited the "seal" of the element looked soft and dodgy........

Might be time to upgrade to a different element.... is anyone using this Craftbrewer one?


----------



## QldKev

fraser_john said:


> Cripes, brewing this w/e with mine and it will be the sixth time I've used it. I noted last time I brewed that the electrical cord as it exited the "seal" of the element looked soft and dodgy........
> 
> Might be time to upgrade to a different element.... is anyone using this Craftbrewer one?


I use one in another hobby and never had a drama with it. I'm not sure if the heat density would make it a bit hot for the lower mash temps.


----------



## fraser_john

QldKev said:


> I use one in another hobby and never had a drama with it. I'm not sure if the heat density would make it a bit hot for the lower mash temps.


Thanks, it will just be in the kettle, so could be a better choice than the KK ones. Wish I had of seen this thread before buying it.....


----------



## Kingy

I've had the 5star elements now. They are going to last a long time. Sturdy, beautiful and solid. I polish the housing all the time lol. Peace of mind when using,blah blah blah. I will never buy a keg king product again. Farkin barstards


----------



## QldKev

Just an update on my Keg Krap elements.

So the story goes
I'm not sure about true versions of these elements because we have been told many times about "the new version which fixes the issues"
We all know the initial version of the elements failed (initial ones had no cable sticking out)...
Keg King promised they had fixed the issues in their next version. I purchased 2 elements for my HLT.
One failed pretty early on with the "blue flame and ball of smoke", I got a replacement.
The replacement rusted; hence the start of this thread. At my expense I cleaned up the rust from the tooling. The element got put into use.
So I had 2 of these elements running on my HLT.

Another version was released which again "the new version which fixes the issues"
I, like a sucker, purchased 2 more for another project.
Both failed (at different times) with the "blue flame and ball of smoke"
After such a hassle with the last effort for a claim I did not claim these.

Back to the HLT, this morning I had my HLT on a timer. my bedroom is on the other side of the wall from the carport where I brew. I woke to another bang.
Although it is most likely still within the 3 year warrenty period, I don't think I will worry about a claim.
So out of 4 elements I have paid for, (5 used including the initial replacement) only 1 is left. Time to find new elements for the HLT.

I guess the main reason for this update I have posted is for anyone who is using these and says "it's been in use for a while, it will be ok" please don't become complacent with these elements.


----------



## fraser_john

Thanks for the update QldKev, I have had mine for a while and I have thought it must be ok........so, not being complacent, I am waiting on the 5stardistilling ones to come back in stock.....


----------



## Truman42

I have a fivestar element and its never let me down. They didnt have weldless at the time I ordered so I brought their threaded element and silver soldered a socket to the side of my boiler. Then used a die cast box to cover the wiring.


----------



## Camo6

Everytime I see a new post in this thread I touch wood. I've been extremely lucky so far but really should invest in a backup for the inevitable. 
Pretty sure I read the fivestar weldless will fit the same hole, yeah?


----------



## sp0rk

Camo6 said:


> Everytime I see a new post in this thread I touch wood. I've been extremely lucky so far but really should invest in a backup for the inevitable.
> Pretty sure I read the fivestar weldless will fit the same hole, yeah?


Yep, they designed them as a replacement for faulty KK elements :lol:


----------



## The Gas Man

I've gone through all four of my keg king elements that I bought in the last year. Never again.

Sure you can't beat the keg king stuff for price, but I've had problems with just about every bit of keg king gear I have bought (not just the elements).

Can't wait for my new 5 star elements to turn up.

Had to go old school and use gas for my last couple of brews.


----------



## QldKev

Glad I had my over the side element this morning, it allowed me to continue.

Keg King stuff works out pretty expensive when it keeps failing. Personally I'm never buying anything from them again.

The 5star ones are great, I have a couple in a boiler and have never let me down. I'm debating in this case where ever or not to use them, I need to run the elements via extension cords and the plugs get quite hot running them. So I'm trying to get all my elements back to around 2,000w to allow a buffer. Although normally in a HLT any element heat density is ok, I'm trying to get low / ultra low density ones as I use the HLT for other duties. No one does an ultra low / low density 2,000w element that I can find.


----------



## MastersBrewery

QldKev said:


> I'm debating in this case where ever or not to use them, I need to run the elements via extension cords and the plugs get quite hot running them. So I'm trying to get all my elements back to around 2,000w to allow a buffer. Although normally in a HLT any element heat density is ok, I'm trying to get low / ultra low density ones as I use the HLT for other duties. No one does an ultra low / low density 2,000w element that I can find.


Know where your coming from there Kev, I got around this by using the extra heavy duty leads from the big green shed, they run 1.5 or 1.6 wire. I use these on my Brauclone, one runs the controller, pump and 2400w element, and the other just another 2400w element, neither have heated in the slightest.

Mike


----------



## QldKev

MastersBrewery said:


> Know where your coming from there Kev, I got around this by using the extra heavy duty leads from the big green shed, they run 1.5 or 1.6 wire. I use these on my Brauclone, one runs the controller, pump and 2400w element, and the other just another 2400w element, neither have heated in the slightest.
> 
> Mike


I'm already using the trades 1.5mm wire extension cords, the cord stays cool, the main issue I'm finding is the 10amp plugs. I'll get a pic later to show you what I mean. I'm thinking of cutting the plug off it and using a 15amp plug, then I can change the element to suit and hopefully keep the plug cooler.


----------



## Maheel

i've been upgrading to "3 phase style" 30 amp screw in plugs for 15amp and heavy duty wiring over the last year.

my BIL is a sparky so i only have to buy the gear (mostly 2nd hand)

but there are no hot plug issues any more on long brew days using 2400 or 3600W


----------



## MastersBrewery

Maheel, some would say that's a lil over kill, but at least you know your going to get your full 15amps to your element.(and with out risk)


----------



## jyo

http://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/index.php?cPath=83&osCsid=egndkob8ih6sun3ppi0dridn93 

I have one of the newer elements from keg king in my hlt which has seen about 20 brews so far. When it decides to die I'll be getting one of these from Nev I think


----------



## Wrayza

I'm running two in a biab keggle, bought them from ebay second hand while they were currently out of stock at keg king. 

They still work, touch wood. 

One had a black + dymo label on it and the other a boil label. Wonder if they ever belonged to someone on here?


----------



## QldKev

They only need to burn down your house and kill your family once for you to hate them. But I hope it never happens to find out.


----------



## balconybrewer

Can vouch for the 3600 mate. So much better than my old corroding one. They also have a lot of surface area which in increased the HLT heat up times.





jyo said:


> http://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/index.php?cPath=83&osCsid=egndkob8ih6sun3ppi0dridn93
> I have one of the newer elements from keg king in my hlt which has seen about 20 brews so far. When it decides to die I'll be getting one of these from Nev I think


----------



## brewermp

My keg king is only hitting 95c on boil .. Not happy jan..

Only 20l by the way


----------



## iambj

brewermp said:


> My keg king is only hitting 95c on boil .. Not happy jan..


Tell QldKev, he's on to it.


----------



## TheWiggman

But is it boiling? If so, job done. Wort doesn't necessarily boil at 100°C and things like altitude will affect boiling temp.


----------



## brewermp

I was boiling water last night to calculate my boil off.

For my altitude it should be around 97.2 c boiling point.

Maybe the 2c difference ain't that bad. I was getting 4l boil off per hour. False alarm???


----------



## sponge

It'll also depend on the accuracy of your thermometer.


----------



## QldKev

Posted taken from over here



dropbear85 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Just a heads up for people who are looking for 2000w elements to stay under 10A. I ordered a couple of these on ebay http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=251336523089
> 
> 1” BSP fitting so they should screw straight into my 5star element guards which got delivered last week (damn they are a good quality guard!!), or you could rig up your own guard pretty cheap like a few other guys have done.
> 
> I can’t vouch for the quality of the elements yet because I haven’t received them but at $20 each with free post they’re cheap enough to give a go.


Great find!

Stainless 304 heating pipes
Works out to be a decent length with the fold back section means we can fit it in tighter pots.

Just purchased 3 of them, will see how they go.


----------



## fraser_john

For those that were waiting on 5stardistilling to get their 2400w weldless elements & guards back in stock, it appears they now have! Just ordered one to replace the Keg King ....

http://www.5stardistilling.net/weldless-2400w-element-guard/


----------



## QldKev

Got the elements discussed here, from ebay. So far so good. Tested them for resistance in the element all pretty good. Threw one in the pot for a quick test with no dramas. I will report back in a few months when I get a brew day with them.

The nut from the Keg King element will not fit the 1" BSP of the element, but luckily I had a 1" BSP nut on hand.


----------



## Mardoo

Cheers Kev. Look forward to hearing about the brew day.


----------



## fraser_john

fraser_john said:


> For those that were waiting on 5stardistilling to get their 2400w weldless elements & guards back in stock, it appears they now have! Just ordered one to replace the Keg King ....
> 
> http://www.5stardistilling.net/weldless-2400w-element-guard/


Picked my element from 5stardistilling up at the PO Box tonight, talk about a lovely bit of kit. Those blokes sure know how to put together a pretty piece of bling! The guard is laser etched with their brand, classy. Pulling the KK element out as we speak and replacing it for my next brew, cannot wait to give the new one a spin.


----------



## fraser_john

fraser_john said:


> Picked my element from 5stardistilling up at the PO Box tonight, talk about a lovely bit of kit. Those blokes sure know how to put together a pretty piece of bling! The guard is laser etched with their brand, classy. Pulling the KK element out as we speak and replacing it for my next brew, cannot wait to give the new one a spin.


Quoting myself, love it...

Did a test run of water only, perfect. After dumping water out, rough towel dry and sitting for a few days, where the element joins the mount and the mount itself inside the pot has started to rust.

Anyone installing one of these should probably give it a bit of scour with some stainless steel scrubby and pickle (or spray with starsan, citric acid or whatever) and let it sit for a few days. 

I am brewing tomorrow, so might pull it out after that, clean it up and pickle it.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

There is what I believe an EVEN newer KK element design with all silicone insulation, longer cold section on the element etc. you tube video below explains it.

http://youtu.be/hSLVNKNlI7Q

Anyone tried these? 

Also 5star seem to be out of stock again?


----------



## QldKev

I've purchased 5 Keg King elements so far, with all the promises of the "fixed in this version" and only have 1 left running. I can't afford to buy more shit from them.

What makes me laugh is that dude recommending the new model removes one with obvious melting points, but the stainless is also rusting! Maybe the new silicone sheath may resolve the heat issue (lol), but why is the stainless rusting. Is this guy getting paid sponsorship for purchases via his link to it?


----------



## barls

i watched it and it was more like an infomercial. 

still not certified ether.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

QldKev said:


> I've purchased 5 Keg King elements so far, with all the promises of the "fixed in this version" and only have 1 left running. I can't afford to buy more shit from them.
> 
> What makes me laugh is that dude recommending the new model removes one with obvious melting points, but the stainless is also rusting! Maybe the new silicone sheath may resolve the heat issue (lol), but why is the stainless rusting. Is this guy getting paid sponsorship for purchases via his link to it?


I've read the thread, hence why doing my research now as I have 4x in a recently purchased rig. Have you had the most current version? Sure there is history and issues, but the features that appear to have been added in this current version seem logical and what one can assume addresses the overheating/insulation breakdown problem. Given that I'm looking for any first hand experience from anyone with this current version and whether they are still suffering from the same fate or whether KK have finally come up with a stable element?

Figure it's worth considering at this stage in time before spending $360 on 4x 5-star element (which appear to be identical to KK in terms of the element, just with additional 200W and a very nice element guard/cable gland)?


----------



## fraser_john

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> I've read the thread, hence why doing my research now as I have 4x in a recently purchased rig. Have you had the most current version? Sure there is history and issues, but the features that appear to have been added in this current version seem logical and what one can assume addresses the overheating/insulation breakdown problem. Given that I'm looking for any first hand experience from anyone with this current version and whether they are still suffering from the same fate or whether KK have finally come up with a stable element?
> 
> Figure it's worth considering at this stage in time before spending $360 on 4x 5-star element (which appear to be identical to KK in terms of the element, just with additional 200W and a very nice element guard/cable gland)?


Go the 5-star ones, at least that way you know you have a good product before even starting assembly. I have one and not had an issue. Just wish i had the 15A outlet to have bought the 3600W one :'(


----------



## fraser_john

QldKev said:


> I've purchased 5 Keg King elements so far, with all the promises of the "fixed in this version" and only have 1 left running. I can't afford to buy more shit from them.
> 
> What makes me laugh is that dude recommending the new model removes one with obvious melting points, but the stainless is also rusting! Maybe the new silicone sheath may resolve the heat issue (lol), but why is the stainless rusting. Is this guy getting paid sponsorship for purchases via his link to it?


My 5-star one showed a similar pattern of rust(where the element joins the fixed nut) after one use!

I asked 5-star about it, sent them pics etc and they said they had never heard of anyone else with the problem.

Found that quickly cleaning it up to remove it an quick spray with Star-San after washing out the kettle each use now prevents it.


----------



## QldKev

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> I've read the thread, hence why doing my research now as I have 4x in a recently purchased rig. Have you had the most current version? Sure there is history and issues, but the features that appear to have been added in this current version seem logical and what one can assume addresses the overheating/insulation breakdown problem. Given that I'm looking for any first hand experience from anyone with this current version and whether they are still suffering from the same fate or whether KK have finally come up with a stable element?
> 
> Figure it's worth considering at this stage in time before spending $360 on 4x 5-star element (which appear to be identical to KK in terms of the element, just with additional 200W and a very nice element guard/cable gland)?


_Upfront: This is a personal discussion, and I am not acting as a moderator of this forum in any authority. If any mods or admin feel I am out of line please fee free to moderate me, as on any post made by any admin/mod. _

So for the comparison
(at this point I will point out I have no affiliation with either company)
I have purchased 5 x KK elements with, after some replacements on the way including more than 1 version, I have only 1 remaining unit running in use due to the rest failing.
I have purchased 2 x 5-star elements, with zero replacements or issues, have 2 running.

So for the record, no I have NOT used the current KK version which replaces the many so called prior versions to fix it. Have they fixed the overheating of the sealed head? It looks to my unofficially trained eye as they have just changed to a more heat stable product, rather than eliminate it. They have stated the heat was moved further away from the base prior. The 5-star has an air enclosure with a metal surrounding to allow heat transfer. Will issues in the KK unit re-occur, I don't know? Will the rust issues of the stainless continue, I don't know.

Are you cellar dweler? or have any invested interest or otherwise in the party?


If Keg King wishes to send me some elements for review I will swap out the existing stable elements from my 3V's HLT (I run 3 elements in it) and give a 100% feedback brew by brew. If they do have a stable product for a great price it would be great.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

QldKev said:


> _Upfront: This is a personal discussion, and I am not acting as a moderator of this forum in any authority. If any mods or admin feel I am out of line please fee free to moderate me, as on any post made by any admin/mod. _
> 
> So for the comparison
> (at this point I will point out I have no affiliation with either company)
> I have purchased 5 x KK elements with, after some replacements on the way including more than 1 version, I have only 1 remaining unit running in use due to the rest failing.
> I have purchased 2 x 5-star elements, with zero replacements or issues, have 2 running.
> 
> So for the record, no I have NOT used the current KK version which replaces the many so called prior versions to fix it. Have they fixed the overheating of the sealed head? It looks to my unofficially trained eye as they have just changed to a more heat stable product, rather than eliminate it. They have stated the heat was moved further away from the base prior. The 5-star has an air enclosure with a metal surrounding to allow heat transfer. Will issues in the KK unit re-occur, I don't know? Will the rust issues of the stainless continue, I don't know.


I've read the thread mate, I understand you've had a bad run with all previous versions, but as you stated you haven't tried the new ones. Completely understand you're done with them, I would likely be too bad I the same experience as you. I appreciate your efforts with this thread too, if it was not for this thread, I would have likely plugged my new rig in and run it with a false sense of security. But.....

Air inside a sealed enclosure is a heat transfer medium? News to me? Air is an extremely poor conductor of heat AFAIK. But I do agree the 5 star appear better built and those who have received them say they are, but fraser_john has had the same rust issue as mentioned as KK, and the element rods look identical, even the dimple in the hot end looks identical to the KK.

This is why I question whether at double the price, are the 5-star worth the extra over the KK current model. If the issues are fixed in the KK model then there is probably no advantage getting 5-star other than the extra 200W or a bling wiring enclosure.

Perhaps the current version is still so new that no one has had the chance to test them properly. 



> Are you cellar dweler? or have any invested interest or otherwise in the party?


No. No.


----------



## jonnir

I wonder if keg king would offer a wire your self version.


----------



## QldKev

I find the 5-star actually run at a similar wattage to the KK once they both heat up. Heat = resistance, it just depends on when you pick the wattage.


----------



## barls

jonnir said:


> I wonder if keg king would offer a wire your self version.


i posted one ages ago that Ive bought and it was reasonably cheap as well. still haven't used it as i haven't got off my arse


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

QldKev said:


> I find the 5-star actually run at a similar wattage to the KK once they both heat up. Heat = resistance, it just depends on when you pick the wattage.


So the 5-star run at 2200W or the KK run at 2400W?

Think I've got blessing from SWMBO to fork out the extra for 5-star, thanks to this thread (or my brief explanation of it)... I'd still be keen to know if anyone has used the current version, to close the loop for others looking at them in the future.


----------



## Eagleburger

I got two unused 5star elements that I will sell. Will stick in the B&S tomorrow.


----------



## QldKev

I find both around the 2100w once hot.


----------



## zeggie

So many have had issues from the KK elements, so when I went electric I stayed well clear. People have had issues for 3+ years...way too long to "fix" it now.

Not worth buying cheap crap for it just to fail and need to be thrown out. Buy once buy right.


----------



## zeggie

And that guy on youtube - heaps of his videos are keg king products. No doubt he's probably a mate of someone at KK and gets discounted/free products if he posts up a review. Hard to be unbiased or impartial with that sort of deal going on. Very common in other industries ATM.


----------



## barls

this has where i bought mine from
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/65841-rims-element/?hl=element


----------



## Topher

Eagleburger said:


> I got two unused 5star elements that I will sell. Will stick in the B&S tomorrow.


You have a PM sir.


----------



## MaltyHops

jonnir said:


> I wonder if keg king would offer a wire your self version.


I thought _they already do_ :unsure:


----------



## breakbeer

Has anyone got good photos of how they've wired they're 5 Star elements? I've got two of them (with guards) that I want to get wired by a sparky. Just waiting on all the bits for the latest Brauduino 

Did you have to install the element & wire it up once in the pot?


----------



## droid

I blew an old one and got a different version which is a covered unit (kk) it's all black with a slightly longer cable from the element end, only used once but they look to have made sure the cable doesn't bend which I thought was the problem as the heat builds up at that bend. Sorry not able to see which kk I have right now but it's enclosed and the cable is supported and there is no kink or bend at the element end anymore

Hope that makes sense


----------



## Kingy

When ya standing near one and it blows a blue flame half a metre towards you ya wont buy another one.


----------



## Eagleburger

breakbeer said:


> Has anyone got good photos of how they've wired they're 5 Star elements? I've got two of them (with guards) that I want to get wired by a sparky. Just waiting on all the bits for the latest Brauduino
> 
> Did you have to install the element & wire it up once in the pot?


No. I got mine so they can be removed from the pot for cleaning. Wire stays attched.


----------



## droid

Kingy said:


> When ya standing near one and it blows a blue flame half a metre towards you ya wont buy another one.


well, being adjacent when mine blew was scary for me but obviously not scary enough ... Lol


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

I know its an extra cost, (aside from swapping faulty elements over - which i still do) but has anyone mentioned these?


http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4616


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

droid said:


> well, being adjacent when mine blew was scary for me but obviously not scary enough ... Lol


I have been scarily close to these when they finally "let go"


----------



## billygoat

_WALLACE_ said:


> I know its an extra cost, (aside from swapping faulty elements over - which i still do) but has anyone mentioned these?
> 
> 
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4616


I have two of those in my kettle, bought them from Ibrew.
Have done about 30 brews with them without any problems.
Very easy to fit.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Im trying to avoid the looped type elements purely because the SS stick would be easiest to clean/scrub.


----------



## billygoat

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Im trying to avoid the looped type elements purely because the SS stick would be easiest to clean/scrub.


They're easy to clean.


----------



## elcarter

If your going down the self or sparky wire up then I'd recommend Camco water heater elements.

Had a 3800W running in a HLT for over 2 years now.


----------



## Camo6

Hey, my original and only KK element has been running a HLT for over two years too. Maybe I need to do a Youtube promo...


----------



## GalBrew

I used one in my original herms unit with no problems. Do they just blow when they are used to boil and ok in an HLT/HERMS/RIMS setting? Just curious.


----------



## Fylp

My old one melted its wiring after about a year and I've been looking at options. Just saw they have a new model out and I'm still sucked in by the convenience of the plug and play. Any experience?

Phil


----------



## TheWiggman

I didn't realise there was a new design, but you're right. I had the second generation and like most who owned one, fizzed it out after a few brews. Even if the new version is the goods, I would personally recommend NOT buying it based on the history of these elements. They were clearly not suitable for commercial sale, posed a genuine safety risk to users with a phenomenal failure rate, but year after year remained on shelves despite the feedback. I would recommend not buying them and use reputable products from other suppliers despite to lure of plug and play. You don't want to be the guinea pig.


----------



## Drew

I found it incredibly hard to find any feedback on the latest iteration. I couldn't find any feedback during the last ~2 years. To me that seems like a good sign.

I never used the old ones. The one we just bought looks sturdy. But it's only 2 brews in now so I guess time will tell.


----------



## barls

merged in to previous thread


----------



## Mickcr250

I just got one of the new ones from craftbrewer yesterday after my old one blew (it still lasted a year and a half). I asked if they had any problems with the new version and they claimed to have not had any returns of the new model.


----------



## Fylp

I showed my f'ed one to my bro in law who is a sparky. He said that the wiring was probably damaged and the problem started there. I do remember a incident now I think back. He said it all looked fine otherwise and suggested I re wire it. So, all re done and sealed up went five for the brew today, no heating up wires or any of the sort. I'll still get a five star if they are ever in stock again.


----------



## breakbeer

I have two of the 'new generation' KK elements & was thinking they must've fixed the issues coz I've brewed a shitload of batches using them.

Well, they haven't. Just plugged the 2nd one in to ramp up to mash out & it blew, shooting out a massive spark about one foot. Made a hell of a noise too, glad I wasn't standing too close or I probably wouldn't be here typing this.


----------



## TheWiggman

Good feedback. I stand by my remarks. Many other good makes out there with a proven track record. These aren't with the risk.


----------



## real_beer

breakbeer said:


> I have two of the 'new generation' KK elements & was thinking they must've fixed the issues coz I've brewed a shitload of batches using them.
> 
> Well, they haven't. Just plugged the 2nd one in to ramp up to mash out & it blew, shooting out a massive spark about one foot. Made a hell of a noise too, glad I wasn't standing too close or I probably wouldn't be here typing this.


  :huh: :wacko:


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Glad to here you survived that failure mate! Also glad I went with 5-star on my rig!


----------



## QldKev

breakbeer said:


> I have two of the 'new generation' KK elements & was thinking they must've fixed the issues coz I've brewed a shitload of batches using them.
> 
> Well, they haven't. Just plugged the 2nd one in to ramp up to mash out & it blew, shooting out a massive spark about one foot. Made a hell of a noise too, glad I wasn't standing too close or I probably wouldn't be here typing this.


Which of the new gen are these, the last of the white or the tapered black ones? I really was hoping they had it fixed by now.


----------



## Kingy

I shit myself big time about 2 years ago when mine threw a lightning bolt at me with an accompanying bang. Unbelievable that this shit just keeps on happening. Mine only lasted 2 brews. My 5stars have been keepin my safe for a many hours now.


----------



## breakbeer

This is what it looks like, can't remember exactly when I had it swapped over but it was easily over a year ago. Pretty sure it's the same unit they're currently selling but correct me if I'm wrong





I'm right in the middle of upgrading my rig to a bigger system & already have the new element from 5 Star to wire up, Thank **** for that.


----------



## breakbeer

Also, Thanks to Nullnvoid for saving the day & bringing his keggle & burner over so I could finish the brew


----------



## crowmanz

Doesn't look like the latest version http://kegking.com.au/2200-watt-stainless-steel-heating-element.html


----------



## barls

funny how the supplier hasn't chimed in the last 31 pages.


----------



## spog

Sounds like 5 star are going to be getting a lot of business coming their way.


----------



## JDW81

I've got two KK elements, one in my RIMS tube and one in my HLT and haven't had a problem with either (HLT element is 4 years old, RIMS element is 2).

I wonder if I've got lucky, or is it the way i've been using them. Have those who've had elements blow been using them to boil or just for heating strike/sparge water?

Even though I've been fortunate, I think I'll be buying 5-star elements when I do need to replace them.

JD


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## Camo6

JDW81 said:


> I've got two KK elements, one in my RIMS tube and one in my HLT and haven't had a problem with either (HLT element is 4 years old, RIMS element is 2).
> 
> I wonder if I've got lucky, or is it the way i've been using them. Have those who've had elements blow been using them to boil or just for heating strike/sparge water?
> 
> Even though I've been fortunate, I think I'll be buying 5-star elements when I do need to replace them.
> 
> JD


I too had a MkII KK element which worked flawlessly for the last few years. Only reason I stopped using it was to upgrade to bigger elements. However, examining the power lead I could detect bulges in the cable which I'd put down to insulation deterioration. There's no way I was going to use it again and it's now decommissioned.
I think it really comes down to cheap components. You just have to look at the Bunglings recall for cheap Chinese thermoplastic sheathed cable where the insulation is inferior. There's still a whole heap of unrecovered cable out there and a good likelihood that a few homes will burn to the ground in a few years because of it.
I can't understand why it's taken KK so long to improve the quality of these elements.


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## real_beer

The first one I had, the small length of connected cable used to get really hot and soft as if it wasn't heavy enough to carry the amps it was drawing. I believe that if people then unplug or pull on it before it cools down, the wiring connections probably move and short out against each other the next time its turned on. If anyone must keep using one and the connection is getting really hot make sure let it cool down fully before moving your vessel around.

Cheap extension leads are one of the worst things for overheating this way, so it pays to invest in really heavy duty ones in your brewery, and uncoil them fully while using them.


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## Nullnvoid

breakbeer said:


> Also, Thanks to Nullnvoid for saving the day & bringing his keggle & burner over so I could finish the brew


No problems mate, was good to see someone else bree and chew the fat. 

Thanks for entertaining the kids. They didn't want to leave and want to come back next weekend


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## jonnir

People understand the key reason the 5star ones are gong well is due to getting a licensed person to wire it yeah?

The wiring is failing on the KK. Use 1mm cable on the 5star and you'll have same issue. Heck use the cheap extension cords and have them at a bend like your element and you'll get the same thing


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## fraser_john

jonnir said:


> People understand the key reason the 5star ones are gong well is due to getting a licensed person to wire it yeah?


Hmmm that might be an assumption, I certainly did not pay a licensed person to wire it.


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## denemc

But that's exactly the point. The Keg King elements are substandard because of the wiring. It's an easy fix but yet they continue to sell something that is putting lives at risk.



jonnir said:


> People understand the key reason the 5star ones are gong well is due to getting a licensed person to wire it yeah?
> 
> The wiring is failing on the KK. Use 1mm cable on the 5star and you'll have same issue. Heck use the cheap extension cords and have them at a bend like your element and you'll get the same thing


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## Camo6

jonnir said:


> People understand the key reason the 5star ones are gong well is due to getting a licensed person to wire it yeah?
> 
> The wiring is failing on the KK. Use 1mm cable on the 5star and you'll have same issue. Heck use the cheap extension cords and have them at a bend like your element and you'll get the same thing


Pretty sure they're not 1mm2 but would have to double check. Even still, a 1mm2 flex cable unenclosed should be able to draw 16A without the insulation failing and creating a short. Considering these elements are drawing about 10A I'd be blaming inferior materials. Especially considering how quickly some of these units have failed. Of course water ingress could be another potential issue.

Fwiw, I wired my elements in 2.5mm2 flex. Makes the rig look tougher.


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## crowmanz

Hairy Goat said:


> It's an easy fix but yet they continue to sell something that is putting lives at risk.


FWIW, no one has reported failures on the current model being sold by keg king.

There maybe no reports because most have stopped using keg king elements and opted to go 5star.


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## jonnir

fraser_john said:


> Hmmm that might be an assumption, I certainly did not pay a licensed person to wire it.


A licensed person would use 2.5mm cable to wire it


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## idzy

breakbeer said:


> This is what it looks like, can't remember exactly when I had it swapped over but it was easily over a year ago. Pretty sure it's the same unit they're currently selling but correct me if I'm wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1445149036.859718.jpg
> 
> I'm right in the middle of upgrading my rig to a bigger system & already have the new element from 5 Star to wire up, Thank **** for that.


That's the Mark II



crowmanz said:


> Doesn't look like the latest version http://kegking.com.au/2200-watt-stainless-steel-heating-element.html


That's the Mark III



Hairy Goat said:


> But that's exactly the point. The Keg King elements are substandard because of the wiring. It's an easy fix but yet they continue to sell something that is putting lives at risk.


The new design they have upgraded the wiring and also the insulation. I have had the Mark III design (didn't pay for them) replaced in my system for about a year and they have been fine to date, touch wood earthed rubber flooring.

I was told, after the feedback and the improvements with the Mark III design, they tested 6 elements running full-time for 7 days.

*This is not an endorsement in any way.*


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## dropbear85

So just to be clear and correct me if im wrong but breakbeer's element that just blew was an OLD keg king element.

There have still been no reports of the new models having problems.

I have two of the new ones ready to go for a project i have been working on but haven't used them yet. I was a little concerned with the earlier iterations but the latest version looked to be a complete redesign and given I couldn't find any negative reports I thought i would give it a go. I do double check my safety switches before i brew just in case.


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## idzy

dropbear85 said:


> So just to be clear and correct me if im wrong but breakbeer's element that just blew was an OLD keg king element.
> 
> There have still been no reports of the new models having problems.
> 
> I have two of the new ones ready to go for a project i have been working on but haven't used them yet. I was a little concerned with the earlier iterations but the latest version looked to be a complete redesign and given I couldn't find any negative reports I thought i would give it a go. I do double check my safety switches before i brew just in case.


I had some of the breakbeer model and they did give up the ghost.

I have 3 of the new ones. They don't have any visible white silicone and just tapered rubber around the element.


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## Fylp

After having one blow and looking at the wiring. My element didn't blow at all. But the wiring was crap got damaged and then the + and - met. I've rewired and all good 3 brews in. When you look at the way they were put together, you see that any pulling at all on the power chord was pulling on the wire joins. Really shitful design. If you set up the five star the same, you'd probably have the same issues.


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## Diesel80

I just watched the youtube video on the KK site with regard to these elements.
I'm sold enough to gamble on the new ones. Look more sturdy than my OTS element now.

Cheers.
D80


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## Camo6

Got home and stripped the insulation from my lead. The old unit I have is wired in 1.5mm2 so should have no troubles handling the current draw. The bulges in the flex turned out to be a kink in just the neutral wire so I suspect this was there from the start. The insulation looked intact with no deterioration. In my limited experience I'd say the cable isn't the issue but more likely water ingress or excessive heat transfer. Hopefully they've got this all sorted with the latest model.


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## jonnir

Fylp said:


> After having one blow and looking at the wiring. My element didn't blow at all. But the wiring was crap got damaged and then the + and - met. I've rewired and all good 3 brews in. When you look at the way they were put together, you see that any pulling at all on the power chord was pulling on the wire joins. Really shitful design. If you set up the five star the same, you'd probably have the same issues.


That's pretty much what I'm getting at. It's just the wiring that's average. If your going to get someone licensed in you may aswell upgrade your KK wiring


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## jonnir

Camo6 said:


> Got home and stripped the insulation from my lead. The old unit I have is wired in 1.5mm2 so should have no troubles handling the current draw. The bulges in the flex turned out to be a kink in just the neutral wire so I suspect this was there from the start. The insulation looked intact with no deterioration. In my limited experience I'd say the cable isn't the issue but more likely water ingress or excessive heat transfer. Hopefully they've got this all sorted with the latest model.


What's the max current draw of 1.5mm? 16a?


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## sp0rk

Camo6 said:


> Got home and stripped the insulation from my lead. The old unit I have is wired in 1.5mm2 so should have no troubles handling the current draw. The bulges in the flex turned out to be a kink in just the neutral wire so I suspect this was there from the start. The insulation looked intact with no deterioration. In my limited experience I'd say the cable isn't the issue but more likely water ingress or excessive heat transfer. Hopefully they've got this all sorted with the latest model.


This is what I've always said about the old elements
The cold zone was far too short, they weren't a sealed element and I doubt the spiral was made of Nichrome or Kanthal wire


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## Camo6

jonnir said:


> What's the max current draw of 1.5mm? 16a?


That's what I got. 16A for a 1.5mm2 flex cord according to my calculator.

I did notice the plastic base was resin filled and after prising it off the wire joins separated quite easily. Maybe hot joints contributing to the problem?


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## QldKev

In my non professional opinion. The issue is not the core size, it is the lack of the ability to allow the heat to vent. That rubber/resin/silicone housing they use does not allow the heat to dispatch, hence it builds up and melts shit. The 5 star ones comes in an open air housing, which is metal that conducts heat away.


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## sp0rk

QldKev said:


> In my non professional opinion. The issue is not the core size, it is the lack of the ability to allow the heat to vent. That rubber/resin/silicone housing they use does not allow the heat to dispatch, hence it builds up and melts shit. The 5 star ones comes in an open air housing, which is metal that conducts heat away.


If the cold zone is long enough, this shouldn't be an issue as the heat will be far enough away from the rubber/silicone
I know Thermal Electric Elements make a few elements with vulcanised rubber over the terminations and they never had problems with them


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## Mikeyr

Wow....done a lot of reading (and thanks Kev for the pm) on all this debate, I'm about to add a 2400w and a 3600w pair of elements to a 70l Craft brewer pot. Was going down the Camco path but 5 star seems only a few bucks more but well regarded.

A couple of questions

1) Stick vs foldback - any performance difference?
2) Is the guard worth the extra $40? Was planning of fixing to the kettle with a jiffy box etc.

And yes have a tame sparkie (new 10 and 15amp circuits installed last Saturday ....woohoo) and an electronics technician to help sort out all the wiring. 

Cheers

Mike


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## Camo6

The stick type is easier to clean if being used in wort. They are also shorter in length which is why I used them in my HEX.

IMO the guard adds a real professional finish if that floats your boat. I'd avoid using the cover seal in case you get a leak inside the housing. Or drill a drain hole. Admittedly I didn't need the guard on my HEX as it's out of sight and a J box would've sufficed but in the end it worked well as it has a wider base which helped cover my 40mm hole.


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## Adr_0

Another one bites the dust. I actually bought a 2200W element from another supplier in June of last year. I was aware of the KK issues but thought this was a different element. Martin (HBHB) said unfortunately it is, but I gave it a few runs with the hope that it was one of the newer or more reliables ones.

After 6 brews and a few cleaning cycles, I was just preparing things last night to brew today and the breaker/RCD went. Made sure everything was dry - it was - and it went again. Earth leakage/fault, not over-current. Sure enough I was getting about 8.5kohm from the active/element to earth, which would be about 20-30mA. Still have continuity through the element (25ohm, what it should be).

The gasket on the 1" thread is intact and all this is sealed well, everything back to the junction box is dry/sealed which seems to leave just where the stick mates into the threaded bush with a small gap, per the attached photo:




Bugger. I was really looking forward to brewing today too.


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## sp0rk

Adr_0 said:


> Another one bites the dust. I actually bought a 2200W element from another supplier in June of last year. I was aware of the KK issues but thought this was a different element. Martin (HBHB) said unfortunately it is, but I gave it a few runs with the hope that it was one of the newer or more reliables ones.
> 
> After 6 brews and a few cleaning cycles, I was just preparing things last night to brew today and the breaker/RCD went. Made sure everything was dry - it was - and it went again. Earth leakage/fault, not over-current. Sure enough I was getting about 8.5kohm from the active/element to earth, which would be about 20-30mA. Still have continuity through the element (25ohm, what it should be).
> 
> The gasket on the 1" thread is intact and all this is sealed well, everything back to the junction box is dry/sealed which seems to leave just where the stick mates into the threaded bush with a small gap, per the attached photo:
> 
> 
> 
> kkelement.jpg
> 
> Bugger. I was really looking forward to brewing today too.


Is this the only report of a new element crapping out?
I need 2 new elements by next weekend, I can get a couple of keg king elements locally(ish) or actually make the effort to get some 5 Star ones shipped over
Just wondering if they actually made them decent


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Feeling good about my 5 star purchase again. Was starting to take them for granted!!! [emoji23]


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## spog

sp0rk said:


> Is this the only report of a new element crapping out?
> I need 2 new elements by next weekend, I can get a couple of keg king elements locally(ish) or actually make the effort to get some 5 Star ones shipped over
> Just wondering if they actually made them decent


I contacted 5 star a week of two back and was told elements (3600 watt with guard ) won't be in stock until late June.
You maybe after something different so give them a ring,you might get lucky.


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## sp0rk

spog said:


> I contacted 5 star a week of two back and was told elements (3600 watt with guard ) won't be in stock until late June.
> You maybe after something different so give them a ring,you might get lucky.


I'm getting the 2400w weldless
Sadly I don't have any 15A sockets, so I have to stick with 2400w, website says they have plenty in stock so I might order a couple today


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## buckerooni

alot pricier and need more ampage but a very slick unit - element with 1.5inch TC (tri clover): https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple_tc.htm

there's lower wattage optoins too, brewhardware also do DIY soldered TC flanges. Don't expect any bargains or cheap shipping however.


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## Jase

Hi there,

Has the general consensus on these elements changed or are these elements still an issue?

Cheers ,
Jase


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## Maheel

buckerooni said:


> alot pricier and need more ampage but a very slick unit - element with 1.5inch TC (tri clover): https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple_tc.htm
> 
> there's lower wattage optoins too, brewhardware also do DIY soldered TC flanges. Don't expect any bargains or cheap shipping however.


i can see those lugs getting bent up in my brew shed if i removed the cord....

i hate dragging the cord on my 2400 and 3600 1" bsp screwin / backing nuts elements but they are easy and work


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## MAX POWER

Jase said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Has the general consensus on these elements changed or are these elements still an issue?
> 
> Cheers ,
> Jase


I've had no issues with mine, and this thread has certainly slowed down, so I dare say that they've improved. ...or no one uses them anymore (except me)


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## Benn

Newest model: My mate runs 2 in his rig on a average fortnightly basis. I was using 1 for a while. No issues thus far.


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## fdsaasdf

I have a new KK element that I use supported by gas in my 1V 2-3 batch rig, has done 4 brews without fault.

I am aware of someone else who has a new KK element who had it short and catch fire after 7 or 8 brews, the thin-gauge lead used may have been a contributing factor. I understand the element was replaced for free.


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## pirateagenda

i've got one of these purchased around may this year, so i'm guessing it's a newer one.
Have used it twice, first time with no issue, second time it melted the plug on my extension lead. Would this be from using an IEC lead that is too thin? 

planning on upgrading my brewery to all electric and weighing up whether to use these as the elements or a better option.


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## scooterism

I use two of the revised type in my kettle for around a year now, brew every fortnight, no issues at all.


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## Brewno Marz

pirateagenda said:


> Have used it twice, first time with no issue, second time it melted the plug on my extension lead. Would this be from using an IEC lead that is too thin?.


If it was the plug on the extension lead, then your extension lead was not 10amp continuous rated. Nothing to do with the IEC lead.


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