# Reuse Of Flavour/aroma Hops



## itguy1953 (5/5/08)

I am currently using aroma and flavour hops to add to hopped extract cans. 

I am moving to AG brew soon, and with the high cost of hops, I am wondering if I can reuse the hops for bittering after I have extracted the flavour and aroma oils. 

To get the aroma from the hops I currently boil them in 500ml of water for 1 minute. Then I leave them steep for approx 1 minute, and then strain them into the fermenter. 

I then take the hops from the strainer and boil them again in 500ml of water for 10 minutes to get out the flavour. Again I filter the liquid into the fermenter.

I then throw away the hops with the bittering oils still in them. 

What I propose to do with the AG brews is to still do my first 2 steps, and then add the residual hops to the boiling wort, and boil them for 1 hour to extract the bitterness. Depending on the hops I use, I might need to add more fresh hops to get the bitterness right. 

I am currently planning brews with Saaz hops, which have low Alpha acid, but high flavour and aroma. As this hop is so expensive, I might use some other high alpha acid hops to supplement the bitterness. Anyone have any ideas on what other hops go well with Saaz?

Barry


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## bakkerman (5/5/08)

There is a flaw in your reasoning here. 

How do you know the alpha acids have not been dissolved? Because no bitterness is added? I bet they have been dissolved, but that the have not been isomerised. Isomerisation happens during the boiling of the wort, and isomerised alpha acid is the bitter constituent in beer. 

I think the reusing of hops is a no go.

Plenty of hops combine well with Saaz, look for a specific bittering hop, they will impart very little aroma if you boil them long enough, only bitterness. So if you ad Saaz late, full aroma.


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## itguy1953 (5/5/08)

bakkerman said:


> There is a flaw in your reasoning here.
> 
> How do you know the alpha acids have not been dissolved? Because no bitterness is added? I bet they have been dissolved, but that the have not been isomerised. Isomerisation happens during the boiling of the wort, and isomerised alpha acid is the bitter constituent in beer.
> 
> ...



I do not know if the alpha acid oils are dissolved or not. That is really the crux of the question. I thought that I had read that the bittering oils did not dissolve easily in boiling water, and that they are extracted in the boiling of wort via the isomerisation process. Does any one know if all of the oils are extracted in a 1 minute or 10 minute boil?

I have some Brewers Gold to add for bitterness. Anyone used this before?


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## PostModern (5/5/08)

Homebrew is meant to be inexpensive, but that's no reason to be cheap.


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## Brewer_010 (5/5/08)

PostModern said:


> Homebrew is meant to be inexpensive, but that's no reason to be cheap.



Agreed

Buy some good bittering hops wiht high aa, and use the aroma hops sensibly. A decent beer can be made with 10g of bittering hops and 40g of aroma/flavour hops - that's still less than five bucks.


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## Adamt (5/5/08)

You're also likely to wash a lot of the resins off during the first or second boil, the resins being what will isomerise and dissolve.


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## dc59 (5/5/08)

I'm going to agree with Bakkerman you can use just to 15g of super alpha in a 60min boil to get about 25 IBU's while having a fairly neutral flavour which will be dominated by your later hop additions of Saaz and others of the like.

That way you could get away with a fairly small amount of hops for a standard size batch. Your brewers gold would be good to use for bittering but not sure of what flavours it will give, sorry Barry.

Dave.

PS, on a side note my LHBS guy mentioned that they have also been hit with a price rise in grains which they have passed on to the customers, 4kg bags have gone up from $20 to $22.50. Fortunately 25kg bags have remained unchanged  .


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## bljpoad (5/5/08)

The only reuse my hops get is either compost or mulch. I recon that most of the alpha acids would be extracted within 5 - 10 mins, so it (bittering) would be a question of isomerization. This is just a gut feeling, I have nothing to really back it up though.

If you are worried about cost, have you thought of using isohop extract?
- Bez


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## redhill (5/5/08)

I am going to disagree, I dont see why you couldnt use them. It might be simpler to bag late additions (and dry hops I suppose), and use them to bitter your next batch, rather than drawing various extracts and adding them back into the beer. You may find it takes a lot of experimenting to get bitterness right using hops this way, and it may never give you quite the effect you want, but I dont think its true that there is no useful bitterness of any kind extractable from late hops. Ive never bittered a whole batch like this, but I have boiled up hop trub and used the bitter tea for starters. Works well. The historical practice was to boil the wort for small beer with the spent hops from the stronger worts drawn from the same mash. It wont taste the same as adding smaller amounts of fresh high alpha-acid hops, but that is no reason not to try it. 
Cheers, 
Redhill


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## dr K (6/5/08)

It is certainly not without precedent.
The well known, if obscure process of hop in a bag has had much discussion at various times and whilst hop in a bag has had its detractors (usually rather coarse remarks such as "why would I want to hop in a bag with you, mushroom ?") it certainly seems to have stood both the test of time and experience.
This is surely a logical extension of the HIAB process, given, as always great care with cleanliness the Bitter in a Bag concept could well be the next major force in home brewing, skimming or collection of yeast for re-use is all but compulsory for major and many mega brewers so why waste those precious bittering components, especailly given the massive price increases...
BIAB...the new frontier.

K


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## 3G (6/5/08)

Im pretty sure many large British breweries would run the wort into the kettle and use the finishing hops to bitter with 'in the olden days'
Ive read or been told this somewhere along the way, dont ask me where though. :mellow:


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## PostModern (6/5/08)

If you don't mind the randomness of the process, it could work. For myself, I'd rather avoid the mess and the hit and miss calculations for the sake of the price of a schooner of beer per batch. If we ~really~ felt the impact of the hop crisis, I might be looking at this myself. At the moment, tho, hops are just a little pricier, they ain't yet scarce.


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## mfdes (6/5/08)

Another reason the reasoning is flawed is that, even if your hop resins have not dissolved in the wort, your lupulin glands have certainly dispersed, especially with pellets, and also woth flowers. Thus you have no idea how bitter your recovered hops are because you have no idea how many lupulin glands have come off the bracts.

MFS.


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## tourist (6/5/08)

I once dry-hopped with flowers in a mesh bag, then used the same hops for bittering in my next brew (along with some fresh hops). It worked - both batches were very drinkable, but the whole process was not very scientific and I have not done it again. My suggestion is to give it a try and make meticulous notes to document your experiences, just like I don't.


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## PostModern (6/5/08)

I am far from scientific, and my results are usually good. Ask the drinkers of my "bucket beer" (bucket of malt, handful of hops, about an hour boil, etc). I generally think that home brewers can be overly anal about things that don't matter so much. 

However, having no idea how much alpha acid is left in your bittering addition is not a path I'd go down. It might work consistently with a consistent recipe, the same hops each time, etc. Not saying it isn't worth looking at, but I'll let someone else brew and serve the trial batches between now and the time the method is refined


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## maltedhopalong (6/5/08)

If it's about the money, grow them. Then you will realise that only using hops once ain't such a big hassle


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## drsmurto (6/5/08)

Wasnt this exact question answered in the latest BYO magazine in depth?


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## PostModern (6/5/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Wasnt this exact question answered in the latest BYO magazine in depth?



So what was the upshot?


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## devo (6/5/08)

Barry R said:


> I am currently using aroma and flavour hops to add to hopped extract cans.
> 
> I am moving to AG brew soon, and with the high cost of hops, I am wondering if I can reuse the hops for bittering after I have extracted the flavour and aroma oils.
> 
> ...



no.


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## drsmurto (6/5/08)

Dont have the copy on me PoMo but recall it was possible, particularly for aroma and dry hopping additions. I believe the bloke suggested reducing the AA% down in your calcs by as much as 30% to account for losses and i suspect this would also depend on whether you chill or not.......... Sort of a suck it and see experiment.

On the whole tho, i wouldnt bother, hops just arent that expensive. Yet.


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## maltedhopalong (6/5/08)

Not worth it if you start getting brews significantly under or over hopped. You CAN work it out I guess, if you have a good calculator but I'm sure quality would suffer. Get some cheap-ass high aa hops for bittering (and boil the heck out of 'em) and use your expensive ones for taste/aroma if the price is that much of an issue.

(Oh, and you're not a cheapskate for thinking along these lines and don't let anyone tell you you are. It's just that the method you proposed originally will not actually work out cheaper, given you'll -PROBABLY- screw up brews by re-using them).

You could always try using iso-hops

/flamesuit on


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## PostModern (6/5/08)

The re-use philosophy is not a bad one if you know what you're getting out the other end. I have a couple of times re-used grain! The best use was after a strong batch, I ran some more sparge water thru the grain, collected the runnings and used them as the dough-in water for my next batch. But I had a measurable amount of extract. I knew what gravity was in the tun, so I could adjust my next recipe. I doubt there are many affordable means for people to measure how much AA is left in their pre-used hops, so predictability is not there. I reckon if you got the same alpha % hop of different varieties from different sources, the results would be different even if you treated them identically. So sure, you might get some recovered alpha acids, but ^&@# knows how much.


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## Fatgodzilla (6/5/08)

maltedhopalong said:


> Not worth it if you start getting brews significantly under or over hopped. You CAN work it out I guess, if you have a good calculator but I'm sure quality would suffer. Get some cheap-ass high aa hops for bittering (and boil the heck out of 'em) and use your expensive ones for taste/aroma if the price is that much of an issue.
> 
> (Oh, and you're not a cheapskate for thinking along these lines and don't let anyone tell you you are. It's just that the method you proposed originally will not actually work out cheaper, given you'll -PROBABLY- screw up brews by re-using them).
> 
> ...



Yes it's rather silly for people to criticise this method on the grounds of costs. The question asked whether the re-use of aromatic hops for bittering in a subsequent batch had any merit. If you didn't know the answer, you have no right to reject the notion on cost of hops alone. That wasn't this bloke enquiry. 

Some of the best answers to problems we come across is when someone asks a simple question that when you think about it, will lead to a much better knowledge of a subject. In this case, when the question is answered properly (as attempted by mfdes & Dr S) we might actually find out if there some merit in the process. 

In this recycling orientated world, we all look at re using seemingly spent material. Without these types of questions, we wouldn't have yeast washing or threads on whether spent grain is better in home baked bread, home made dog biscuits or for lacing with Tallon and chucking on the compost heap to kill rats.

Brew long and perspire 




> So sure, you might get some recovered alpha acids, but ^&@# knows how much.



Still on the flu tablets, aren't you.


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## Beejay (6/5/08)

And remember, once you go AG and buying malt in bulk you will be saving heaps over extract and can afford to go more and better hops and yeasts. Nothing wrong with the recycle idea (it certainly has merit), but a lot of trial and error to make it somewhat repeatable. And with different hop harvests changing hop characteristics, each year will be a new start.


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## PostModern (6/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Still on the flu tablets, aren't you.



What's that got to do with anything? But yes.



Beejay said:


> And remember, once you go AG and buying malt in bulk you will be saving heaps over extract and can afford to go more and better hops and yeasts. Nothing wrong with the recycle idea (it certainly has merit), but a lot of trial and error to make it somewhat repeatable. And with different hop harvests changing hop characteristics, each year will be a new start.



Indeed, make a lot of substandard or off-target beers in order to save a few bucks on hops. Seems not worth the trouble, imho.


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## maltedhopalong (6/5/08)

> Yes it's rather silly for people to criticise this method on the grounds of costs. The question asked whether the re-use of aromatic hops for bittering in a subsequent batch had any merit. If you didn't know the answer, you have no right to reject the notion on cost of hops alone. That wasn't this bloke enquiry.



Sorry but I thought he did - see: "As this hop is so expensive..."

Yeah I know at this point he was talking about using different hops for different parts of the hop profile to save money (as in fact, I have myself re: POR hops). 

*But I don't think it was unreasonable to believe that he wanted to re-use flavour hops for bittering because he felt it was a waste of money* especially given the nature and tone of the post.

I stand by my point that while it is possible, the inability to measure the Alpha Acid left means that you're risking ruining entire brews and therefore not worth the benefit (which I thought was money/reducing wastefulness, I may have been wrong, but certainly others who look up this thread later may well be looking at it from this point of view).

Finally:



> Some of the best answers to problems we come across is when someone asks a simple question that when you think about it, will lead to a much better knowledge of a subject. In this case, when the question is answered properly (as attempted by mfdes & Dr S) we might actually find out if there some merit in the process.



I agree 100% and if you have a look at a lot of my posts, you'll see I generally try to add any little tidbit of knowledge I may have to a thread so that it may help the writer even if not directly answering the question (which is what you said was the problem with my post, oddly enough). Like I said, others will read these threads later on too, so the more info the better.

I can scarcely see how I "rejected the notion" of re-using hops, merely tried to add light on the subject, which u then criticised me for not doing later on in your post.

My apologies for biting, but here I was trying to do exactly what you think we should all do (and so do I) and you tell me I was being dismissive.


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## itguy1953 (6/5/08)

(Oh, and you're not a cheapskate for thinking along these lines and don't let anyone tell you you are. It's just that the method you proposed originally will not actually work out cheaper, given you'll -PROBABLY- screw up brews by re-using them).

You could always try using iso-hops

/flamesuit on
[/quote]

Thanks for the support. I am not a cheapskate, I am into recycling, so I thought I would ask the question.

I was smart. When I heard about the pending hops shortage (I have a contact in the hops game), I bought up 5kg of Amarillo, 5Kg of Brewers Gold, 2.5Kg of Saaz. Since then I have acquired 1kg fresh Pride of Ringwood flowers, 500g of dry Columbus X Wild Kent flowers (a seedling) and 400g of dry Tardiff de Bourgogne flowers. I have quite a stock of hops, and the prediction is that the prices are going to climb far higher than they are now, and in the near future. 

The fact is that there is a world wide shortage of hops, which is going to hurt home brewers, and craft brewers alike. I know an owner of a craft brewery in Victoria and he has just stockpiled 800Kg of hops to keep him going for 12 months. My mate in the hops game is getting calls and emails from all over the world looking for hops, and they are willing to pay top dollar. 

What has caused the hop shortage is that the Chinese and Indian breweries have bought out the hop contracts from independent growers, and they paid 2-3 times the previous contract price. 

So brace yourself one and all, hop supply will get very tight soon, and you will be paying more, and think yourself lucky to get them. Already my mate cannot buy Saaz in quantity, and I love this hop, so thought I would try and work out how to stretch out my supply.

On the under hopping potential of the final beer, there are simple ways to fix this. If I found that the beer was not bitter enough, I can just add isohops. No need to throw the brew out, just fix it. I have done this today to 3 kegs I have brewed from hopped extract cans, to which I added 1.2Kg of malt instead of dextrose. They turned out (as expected) to be under hopped. Just added 12 drops of isohops to bring the IBU up by approx 7 points (I do not mind an over bitter beer, so thought I would try to shoot for 7 points all in one go instead of adding a few points at a time - besides I want to drink the stuff soon). I will leave the brews in the fridge at 4 degC until the weekend, and then try them out. I want to leave them a few days for the isohops to blend in properly.

Barry


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## PostModern (6/5/08)

Barry R said:


> On the under hopping potential of the final beer, there are simple ways to fix this. If I found that the beer was not bitter enough, I can just add isohops. No need to throw the brew out, just fix it. I have done this today to 3 kegs I have brewed from hopped extract cans, to which I added 1.2Kg of malt instead of dextrose. They turned out (as expected) to be under hopped. Just added 12 drops of isohops to bring the IBU up by approx 7 points (I do not mind an over bitter beer, so thought I would try to shoot for 7 points all in one go instead of adding a few points at a time - besides I want to drink the stuff soon). I will leave the brews in the fridge at 4 degC until the weekend, and then try them out. I want to leave them a few days for the isohops to blend in properly.
> 
> Barry



So can you re-use the iso-hops? 

(just stirring the can).


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## itguy1953 (6/5/08)

PostModern said:


> So can you re-use the iso-hops?
> 
> (just stirring the can).



My kidneys are to efficient. Maybe if I was on a dialysis machine.....


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## dr K (6/5/08)

I actually thought that this thread was a sort of light hearted jokey thing at first (and thus my reply), but I am getting really concerned here..the idea of re-using spent hops is just so wrong, just so stooopid. The hops are spent, they are kaput, they have shuffled off this mortal coil, they have fallen off the perch..they are spent, finished.
Lets look at pellets here because thats what most of have available (certainly in the case of US and Euro varieties), the hops are harvested and then processed as quickly as possible after the harvest, they are kept away from oxygen, heat and even light as much as is possible, the pelletting process is done at cold temperatures, the hops are sealed into oxygen barrier bags of 5 , 10 and greater kilo units and are kept as cool as possible for the period of storage. We are lucky here in Australia to have at least one re-seller who then breaks these 5kg packs down into smaller packs which are oxygen sealed almost immediately and then refridgerated thus we are able to purchase 90 or 450gm packs of hops in optimum condition.
Once we get them we store them oxygen free and (usually) frozen.
So after all this work, all this care, from the fields right through to the home fridge we (well not me I hasten to add) propose that we can throw these pellets into a boiling wort (with the mechanical and heat stress at full blast, blow them apart, and then expect some how to harvest the dead , spent foikin parrots off the floor of the boiler, or worse the fermentor and in some way utilise the un-isomerised (is there such a word, does not deserve to be) alpha acids in another brew.....
naaa...I was right in the first place, it is not conjecture its some weird joke...please...???

K


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## Fatgodzilla (6/5/08)

dr K said:


> naaa...I was right in the first place, it is not conjecture its some weird joke...please...???
> 
> K




Doctor, doctor .. is there a doctor in the house ?

You used pellets. Tough to re use since they will fall apart quickly. What about hop socks ? What about hop flowers ?


Now, first things first. Break down the question properly. 

1. If you bung in a mob of hop pellets / plugs / flowers in the boil for like one minute, what exactly has happened ? What alphas, betas, gulags (or whatever its called) have been used / expended in the boil. Forget completely about re-use - someone answer the question - what in the hop has been used / expended / utilized in that one minute of boiling.

2. What is left ? What has been left in the mess, pulp, residual hops after a one minute boil ?

After we have answered that question, we can address the question 

3. Is there is anything else worthwhile re using.

As I tried to say before, don't worry about what you think the original question said, don't worry about whether you would recycle hops, stop saying you are cheap, stop saying don't insult me if I called you cheap. Stop thinking of you. You're not the issue, hops are. 

Go people


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## brendanos (6/5/08)

Last time I bought Czech Saaz, they came in at a whopping 2.2%AA, and I've heard that recent harvests have been even more measly. So even if they were fresh "first hand" hops, you'd have to use a butt load to get any real bitterness out of them. And in doing so you might also end up with an undesirable green grass/chlorophyll character. Reusing dual purpose (hi alpha and aromatic) hops like nelson sauvin does seem like a good idea though. I look forward to reading the BYO article.


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## Darren (6/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Doctor, doctor .. is there a doctor in the house ?
> 
> You used pellets. Tough to re use since they will fall apart quickly. What about hop socks ? What about hop flowers ?
> cheap, stop saying don't insult me if I called you cheap. Stop thinking of you. You're not the issue, hops are.
> ...




Hey Fat,

Not being the one to usually defend the good doctor k, I am too perplexed by the issues of hop re-use.

Ever boiled a pot of water and thrown a "dob" of butter into it? What happened? The butter melted and was almost instantly indiscernable from the water.

Ever added a "sock" of hops to boiling wort and tasted the wort?? I bet you haven't. You can bet that I have  . Boiling wort is bittered almost instantly by hops. I found I couldnt pull the hops out quick enough before I could easily taste them in the hot wort.

The 60-90 minute boil has very little to do with hop extraction. Its more to do with isomerisation of the hops oils and formation of hot break. Keeping the hops in the boil is easy and probably extract the last 1% remaining.

cheers

Darren


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## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

Darren said:


> Ever added a "sock" of hops to boiling wort and tasted the wort?? I bet you haven't. You can bet that I have  .
> Darren



You lose that bet. Haven't all brewers tasted their wort occasionally throughout the process ? 



> Stop thinking of you. You're not the issue, hops are.



Darren go back and re read Points 1,2 and 3 of my last post and if you can answer the question, please go for it.

Yesterday arvo my copy of "Brew" arrived and Mr Wizard was asked that same question (coincidence Barry R ?) Briefly he didn't fully answer the Points I raised but didn't poohaa the question out of hand as most have done. He pretty much eliminated pellets from this discussion very much along the lines of dr K 's treaty but thought it possible with whole hops. He thought there would be a loss of oils / flavours but could not guess the proportions of the loss. His main point was to try a side by side testing and see if you could work out how much hop "efficiency" (for lack of a better word) was lost. I'm assuming that the question will be on the BYO website in the Ask Mr Wizard section for anyone interested.


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## Darren (7/5/08)

fatg,

Most of the hop oils have been removed in that one minute. By 5 minutes 99.9% will have been removed. Doesn't leave much for re-use.

cheers

darren


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## Adamt (7/5/08)

This is exactly what I said in the first page (which seems to have been ignored)... most of the resins will wash off of the hops during the first boil. (Great minds think alike, Darren ).

Think about it this way... throw a visually dirty person (imitating resins on a hop cone) into a pool (the kettle), and have them splash around for a minute (boiling creates motion) and then get them out of the pool. There's no soap dissolving the dirt (isomerisation), but how much visible dirt will be left on them?


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## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

> This is exactly what I said in the first page (which seems to have been ignored)... most of the resins will wash off of the hops during the first boil.





> Most of the hop oils have been removed in that one minute. By 5 minutes 99.9% will have been removed. Doesn't leave much for re-use.



So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.

I don't think so.


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## troydo (7/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.
> 
> I don't think so.



try it and see....


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## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

Troydo said:


> try it and see....





I don't think so :lol:


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## Adamt (7/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.
> 
> I don't think so.



Why not? You probably could and notice little difference. I won't be trying it (as well as reusing) because I get predictable, repeatable results leaving them in for the whole boil.

If you don't want to test this yourself, why are you insisting on getting a definitive scientific answer to your questions? One of the main steps of developing scientific theory is to experiment.


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## Fatgodzilla (7/5/08)

Adamt said:


> If you don't want to test this yourself, why are you insisting on getting a definitive scientific answer to your questions? One of the main steps of developing scientific theory is to experiment.



I think it is clear that for the ordinary home brewer who will not be using whole hops that the re-use issue is almost certainly both impractical and unnecessary. That doesn't stop anyone from asking why. The knowledge of "what happens when" is an important learning tool in life. It shouldn't be discarded simply cos someone doesn't know the answer.

I'm not interested in the testing, I'm interested in the why. This research has been done by people far suited to such experiments before and I've spent some time looking for it (without luck, though google probably isn't the best source of information in this case). The point is, I asked a question - what happens when hops are boiled. What is extracted at certain stages of the boil, what is left of the hop at certain stages. This is a home brewing forum and I don't think I it too rude to be asking these questions here. If I want to know about melting butter or washing dirty people, I would probably look elsewhere.

In asking and receiving answers in this thread and the follow up searches I have made, I can say I know a lot more about the processes involved when boiling hops. I have worked out out what went wrong with a previous brew and my hop additions and I have a far better understanding of what will be extracted when I'm boiling hops. So all this banter really has been beneficial to me as I have a far better knowledge of the "how" and anticipated outcomes. But I don't yet know the "why" question. And I probably won't. :lol: 

Good Brewing everyone.


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## troydo (7/5/08)

Adamt said:


> Why not? You probably could and notice little difference. I won't be trying it (as well as reusing) because I get predictable, repeatable results leaving them in for the whole boil.
> 
> If you don't want to test this yourself, why are you insisting on getting a definitive scientific answer to your questions? One of the main steps of developing scientific theory is to experiment.



agreed


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## Brewer_010 (13/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> In asking and receiving answers in this thread and the follow up searches I have made, I can say I know a lot more about the processes involved when boiling hops. I have worked out out what went wrong with a previous brew *and my hop additions and I have a far better understanding of what will be extracted when I'm boiling hops*.



So could you pls offer us your discovery?

I've been mucking about with additions at differet times/different amounts etc and have yet to determine a 'preferred' method for a particular style of beer (but a method will be decided by the beer style and taste I am trying to achieve)

Still experimenting...will it ever end?

cheers


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## PostModern (13/5/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.



Have you tried bottle number 5 in the IBU case yet, Ian? The aroma and flavour in that comes solely from a flameout addition (plus a couple flowers in the cube). That's about 3 mins of total exposure to the wort. Flameout > hops in > 30 seconds of mad stirring > 2.5 mins to settle out > rack to cube leaving flowers behind. There's bucketloads of hop flavour in there. From less than 3mins in the wort.


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## dr K (13/5/08)

> Now, first things first. Break down the question properly.



Sayeth Fatgodzilla...who continues to ask "why"

An observer of this thread might be tempted to imagine themselves as a Kindergarten teacher, who after explaing to her class that before crossing the road one should look to the left, look to the right and look to the left again has to deal with little Johnny who just cannot get it through his head why he should look to the left again.."Why Miss...when I have already looked to the left...why Miss"

Sorry to all you seniors out there, this is just for little Johnny.
Hops, whether they are whole, compressed into plugs or pelleted have lots of good things in them, and that is why we look after them Johnny, just like how you look after that nice crisp apple in your lunch box, because even if it was picked six months ago those nice men have kept them as best as they can..just for you Johnny so you can taste it as good as it gets.
The exact second we throw those whole hops, plugs or pellets in the wort they change, first they get wet, and we don't like being wet do we......
I do not have to go on much further do I
"Why" do we not re-use hops...simple there is nothing left of any value to use..Norwegian Blue really.

Sorry...


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## mfdes (14/5/08)

The whole thing about re-using hops reminds me of my brother asking why I was throwing away the puck of spent espresso coffee and asking why I wasnm't running another coffee through it again 

I think the easiest thing to do is to get past the mindset of the last few years when hops were plentiful and prices artificially low because of the stockpile, and start looking at older recipes from the times when hops were by far the most expensive ingredient in beer. 

No massive late additions, no hopbursts. I wonder how many people will be crying at the wasted hops a year from now... 

Judicious use of a good bittering variety at 60 minutes and a couple of conservative late hop additions do go a long way. In many of my English beers I hop at 60 minutes and then dry hop. No other additions.

A separate note on the hop shortage: It was NOT caused by Indian and Chinese breweries buying up forward contracts at inflated prices. There are several factors involved, and many of them are mostly related to short-sightedness of the major breweries. The area under hops was less than necessary to sustain demand for years, and it has just taken this long to whittle down the stockpile. Currently demand exceeds supply by 12%. Might not seem much, but service the major breweries first (as they do), and the remaining craft and homebrew market is way less than 12%.

MFS.


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## Brewer_010 (14/5/08)

mfdes said:


> I think the easiest thing to do is to get past the mindset of the last few years when hops were plentiful and prices artificially low because of the stockpile, and start looking at older recipes from the times when hops were by far the most expensive ingredient in beer.
> 
> No massive late additions, no hopbursts. I wonder how many people will be crying at the wasted hops a year from now...
> 
> Judicious use of a good bittering variety at 60 minutes and a couple of conservative late hop additions do go a long way. In many of my English beers I hop at 60 minutes and then dry hop. No other additions.



I agree. I've made a few beers with quite a lot of hops (around the 120-150g mark for 20L, this is a lot for me), and while a nice flvour is developed I don't believe its twice as good as my 50-70g brews.

Having tried it I don't think I'll use a large amount of hops ordinarily, but save it for certain brews - maybe two or three a year or so. I'm trying to maximise flavour and minimise additions in my brews simply because its easier and less 'wasteful' of my hops.


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