# Black beer and Stout separation



## good4whatAlesU (7/6/16)

Hi Guys 
I'm brewing a lot of black beers/stout at the moment with about 12% roasted barley. Moderately hopped, with an Ale base malt / Ale yeast.
They are enjoyable beverages - not too heavy (around 5%).
Would these generally but categorised as a Stout or Black beer? Or is it a bit of a grey area and don't worry about it because they are good to drink!
cheers.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/6/16)

Thats a fair wack of RB


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## Velu (7/6/16)

To my (limited) knowledge black beer is a colour descriptor, not a beer style


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## Judanero (7/6/16)

That is heaps of RB, doesn't it taste like burnt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stout


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## barls (7/6/16)

is this for a competition or just or your self?
if its the first, read the bjcp style guide lines for stout, porter and dark ale and see which one it fits best to.
if its for your own benefit call it what you want but not an ale as it uses hops.


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## Midnight Brew (7/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Hi Guys
> Or is it a bit of a grey area and don't worry about it because they are good to drink!
> cheers.


Looks like you have answered your own question.

Why not mix it up and keep the roast barley in but add in some crystal malt or chocolate malt. Really experiment through the grains and find a mix you like. Even use the same ingredients and change up the percentages. I feel like if you're enjoying what you're currently brewing, that you cannot lose. Brew on!


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## good4whatAlesU (7/6/16)

barls said:


> is this for a competition or just or your self?
> if its the first, read the bjcp style guide lines for stout, porter and dark ale and see which one it fits best to.
> if its for your own benefit call it what you want but not an ale as it uses hops.


Not for competition. Lol, no definitely not an Ale.
It's just that i generally don't enjoy most Stouts, to me they are like downing cough strip. But this one - a drier bitterish black beer with a fair bit of roasted barley tastes okay. I'll just drink it and forget about the name i think.


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## good4whatAlesU (7/6/16)

Judanero said:


> That is heaps of RB, doesn't it taste like burnt?
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stout


Actually it's not too bad considering. Bought a couple Guinness extra the other day and struggled to get through the bottle (too rich). Brought out the home brew and downed a couple with ease.


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## bradsbrew (7/6/16)

That percentage of roast is ok with low mash temps (60-62). 
I have found the following with roast malts.
Roasted- Coffee Chocolate notes
Choc- Chocolate roast notes
Black patent- burnt ash notes

When blended beers can be consumed fresher.
When used in single high percentage the beer requires longer aging.
Same goes for mash temps, i have found that the beers that have been mashed at lower temps are more drinkable early when compared to higher mash temp bigger body beers.
As for the black vs stout, i would say a dry beer with black and roast malt without choc and crystal could be referred to as black.
Cheers


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## Benn (7/6/16)

Brewing Network- the session podcast. https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/brewing-network-presents-sunday/id217652795?mt=2&i=369448848
Marshall Schott (Brulosophy) runs an in studio tasting experiment designed around Black patent vs Roasted Barley. Some interesting discussion follows.


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## Bribie G (7/6/16)

Brad used to chuck a whole *kilo* of RB in, and I followed his lead with good results.

That would equate to around 20% RB.

A competition stout that made it all the way to the Nationals would have come second in Australia were it not for one of the three judges marking it down as too skewed towards roast. Nowadays I would use maybe 600g.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/6/16)

Those 2 malts are very different


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## good4whatAlesU (7/6/16)

Bribie G said:


> Brad used to chuck a whole *kilo* of RB in, and I followed his lead with good results.
> 
> That would equate to around 20% RB.
> 
> A competition stout that made it all the way to the Nationals would have come second in Australia were it not for one of the three judges marking it down as too skewed towards roast. Nowadays I would use maybe 600g.


Interesting, it's up to the judges I guess as to their style guide rather than necessarily drinkability. I tried mine all the way up to 25% ish .. but didn't work too well for me. Sweet spot down in the 10 - 15% if using roasted alone. If chucking in other stuff chocolates etc. then perhaps lower. 

Comment from bradsbrew regarding low mash temps is quite true. I don't have great temp control or equipment (just an esky). Start mash water about 70C then add grains on top - the cold grain lowers the temperature into the low 60's. I then top up with a bit of water from the kettle - I think it raises to about 64 then falls over the hour to about 62. Drain then, sparge out with about 75C.


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## GalBrew (7/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Interesting, it's up to the judges I guess as to their style guide rather than necessarily drinkability. I tried mine all the way up to 25% ish .. but didn't work too well for me. Sweet spot down in the 10 - 15% if using roasted alone. If chucking in other stuff chocolates etc. then perhaps lower.
> 
> Comment from bradsbrew regarding low mash temps is quite true. I don't have great temp control or equipment (just an esky). Start mash water about 70C then add grains on top - the cold grain lowers the temperature into the low 60's. I then top up with a bit of water from the kettle - I think it raises to about 64 then falls over the hour to about 62. Drain then, sparge out with about 75C.


With a setup like that there is no reason why you can't nail your mash temp to the degree every time. Just record your strike and mash temps and work out how much temp your grain addition wipes off your strike water.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/6/16)

I work on the basis that strike water should be about 8*c above mash temp


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## good4whatAlesU (7/6/16)

Thanks ill give that a go. I'm only doing small batches - 12L wort pre-boil and ferment ends up 10 litres kegged. So with batches that small i can get away with kettle top ups.


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## GABBA110360 (7/6/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I work on the basis that strike water should be about 8*c above mash temp


8 deg c is a fair bit
I think that varies a lot vol/ grain weight
I only allow about 2.5 deg full volume mash 10 kg/62 l water
seems to work


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/6/16)

That was in a plastic esky with false bottom, 5kg, about 2,5-3:1 water ratio

Grain temp around 20*

Thats what worked for me.

Some it was high, sometimes it was low, sometimes it was just right


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## technobabble66 (8/6/16)

For the record, it's ~3-4*C drop for me, with 5-6kg grain in 20-22L water. (I do ~55:45 mash:sparge ratio). 
Targeting 55*C. So my strike temp is generally 58-59*C, depending on ambient temps. 
2c

Edit: that's for heating to strike temp in my mash tun Urn (so there's no heat loss to equipment -maybe that's where DS needs an extra few degrees?)


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## good4whatAlesU (8/6/16)

I guess not all eskies are created equal. 

One brew shop is currently advertising a double skin insulated stainless steel mash tun at the moment .. looks good. They reckon it drops less temp than an esky .. but at the price they'd want to.


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## sp0rk (8/6/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> I guess not all eskies are created equal.
> 
> One brew shop is currently advertising a double skin insulated stainless steel mash tun at the moment .. looks good. They reckon it drops less temp than an esky .. but at the price they'd want to.


Is there much headspace between the top of your mash and the lid of your esky?
If so, you're losing heat to the air in your esky
Get a foam broccoli box lid and cut it to the shape of your esky, float on top of the mash to help insulate


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## good4whatAlesU (8/6/16)

Thanks for the tip - naH the esky is chokkers.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/6/16)

technobabble66 said:


> For the record, it's ~3-4*C drop for me, with 5-6kg grain in 20-22L water. (I do ~55:45 mash:sparge ratio).
> Targeting 55*C. So my strike temp is generally 58-59*C, depending on ambient temps.
> 2c
> 
> Edit: that's for heating to strike temp in my mash tun Urn (so there's no heat loss to equipment -maybe that's where DS needs an extra few degrees?)


Ah yes, but you are only wanting to mash at 55*c, which is a lot different to 68*c

The smaller the temp diff between your water and grain,the less it will drop the temp


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## yankinoz (30/12/16)

I'd call it a stout if the abv is high enough, but what's in a name?

FYI: Schwarzbier and cerveza negra mean black beer and are generally lagers, not ales like stout. Trouble is, they're generally more dark brown than black. Once upon a time the Brazilians brewed really black and very roasty lagers under the brand names Caracú and Xingu. Today's Xingu seems to be less black and roasty than what I remembered, whilst Beer Advocate now describes Caracú as a milk stout. BJCP says many Baltic "porters" are actually lagers.

Go ahead and use your insane 12% roast barley and play away. If you also throw in so much crystal it pours like syrup, call it a London stout. If the OG is up in the 1.08 range, say Baltic porter. Or use a lager yeast, make the IBUs 15-20, the abv @ 4.5, lager it and invite all the elderly North Coast Brazilian expats over for a taste of cerveja negra autentico. Seriously, those old black beers were damn good.


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## good4whatAlesU (9/4/17)

Just noticed your post yankinoz (4 months later sorry!).

Sounds like those Brazilians know how to brew some great beers.

I'm still loving mucking around with the black beers (probably every second brew a.t.m). Lately I'm up around 17% dark grains, but taking the edge off by cold steeping at least half of it.

Absolutely loving it, they are so nice you could have one for breakfast. I never use crystal as a rule.. these are sweet enough without. Rarely enjoy a bought stout nowadays, they are always too bitter and over -complicated in flavour for my liking I just don't enjoy them.

Anyway, must build myself a bigger set up as the 10L batches just wet the throat, but at least you get some good variety with a new batch regularly.


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