# All Grain Spoiling? [no Chiller Method]



## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

Hi All,

I have been a home brewer (kits) for the last couple of years and switched to all grain a couple of weeks ago. I have never really had an issue with my beers getting infected -> I have always used iodophor, and in my umpteen previous batches have only spoiled one.

However, my first two all grain batches are experiencing issues. I sterilised all equipment prior to use -: mash tuns, boilers, fermenters, equipment the usual. So I boil up my all grain beer, let it cool for 20 or 30 mins (using no chiller method) and then empty it to my fermenter, bringing it down to room temperature by putting it in the back bathroom which is always nice and cold.

Beer #1 (boh pils) is giving off a foul odour & I have yet to put yeast in it! There appears to be some action -: the SG has dropped slightly and the bubbler is bubbling? is this meant to happen to wort which has no yeast added?

Beer #2 (belg ale) the yeast (liquid belg abbey ale) was pitched 2 days after boiling, as it had dropped to room temperature. It seemed to ferment as usual. Taste test number 1 today after a week fermenting and it was pretty undrinkable. It almost has that off flavour. 

With both beers i have been so careful with the sterilisation -> and since both are bubbling away happily, i believe the fermenters to be air tight. The only thing i can think of that i havent done is not put sterilised water in the bubblers. I never have, to tell you the truth.

Anyone got any suggestions, or am I being paranoid?


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## tangent (2/7/07)

> Beer #1 (boh pils) is giving off a foul odour & I have yet to put yeast in it!


Tell me more about this. And why you're smelling a wort that doesn't have yeast in it yet?


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## domonsura (2/7/07)

Yeah, this has spiked my curiosity too.....how would you describe the odour?


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## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

domonsura said:


> Yeah, this has spiked my curiosity too.....how would you describe the odour?



I would describe the odour as bad  
It's hard to describe - it smells similar to an infected beer - but not quite as strong yet. Like it was just starting to take a turn for the worse... i must admit i've never smelt it before in a beer, other than the one i infected. It's hard to describe - not much smells like infected beer!

I first noticed it a day or two ago, when i heard the bubbler going off. That was the whole reason i smelt it -: i just expected the wort to sit there dormant until my yeast was ready.


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## fixa (2/7/07)

if the water isn't steralised, as the wort cools it may suck air back through the airlock and so ingesting the non-sterile water. maybe that's where the problem comes from?


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## bonj (2/7/07)

SicOfVic said:


> let it cool for 20 or 30 mins (using no chiller method) and then empty it to my fermenter, bringing it down to room temperature by putting it in the back bathroom which is always nice and cold.



20 - 30 minutes doesn't sound like long enough to no-chill to me? I've left mine in the cube overnight before transferring to the fermenter.


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## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

fixa said:


> if the water isn't steralised, as the wort cools it may suck air back through the airlock and so ingesting the non-sterile water. maybe that's where the problem comes from?



Could be an option, and in the future i will ensure it is sterilised. But interesting how i've done this for two years and never had an issue... Coincidence with these last 2 perhaps?


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## tangent (2/7/07)

> 20 - 30 minutes doesn't sound like long enough to no-chill to me? I've left mine in the cube overnight before transferring to the fermenter.


my thoughts too


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## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

Bonj said:


> 20 - 30 minutes doesn't sound like long enough to no-chill to me? I've left mine in the cube overnight before transferring to the fermenter.



Hey Bonj

i was just transfering it straight from the boiler to the fermenter after 30 mins, throwing on the bubbler and chucking it in the back bathroom. I havent read all 50 pages of that thread for a little while - is the usual process cube it for a few hours, then transfer to the primary?


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## Stuster (2/7/07)

How did you transfer it to the fermenter?

If you are cooling it in the fermenter, I would definitely pitch within 24 hours (or less preferably). If it's taking longer than that, I'd definitely transfer it to a cube while still hot with as little airspace as possible and cap it. That way anything in the cube should be killed off by the heat. If you've left it for a couple of days in a fermenter, with no air in the airlock, I'd say you almost certainly would get an infection.


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## fixa (2/7/07)

SicOfVic said:


> Could be an option, and in the future i will ensure it is sterilised. But interesting how i've done this for two years and never had an issue... Coincidence with these last 2 perhaps?



yeah but didn't you say the last 2 have been AG? therefore the wort would be hotter than you've had it before.....


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## oldbugman (2/7/07)

The fact it is expelling gas "bubbler going off" without the yeast being pitched says that there is an infection going on.

I have only had one infection, and that was in a no chill cube, I uncapped it one night while pissed and drew off a small sample with an eye dropper for a refractometer reading, placed cap back on tightly. Returned 2 days later to a completely (about to explode) cube, it stank when I oppened it to release the pressure. Ended up tossing it all cube and all.


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## MVZOOM (2/7/07)

If you have left the wort for two days to cool, without sealing it, you're leaving it prone to wild yeast infection. 

No Chill assumes that you will be sealing in a sterilised cube, then un-sealing and pitching.

Cheers Mike


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## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

MVZOOM said:


> If you have left the wort for two days to cool, without sealing it, you're leaving it prone to wild yeast infection.
> 
> No Chill assumes that you will be sealing in a sterilised cube, then un-sealing and pitching.
> 
> Cheers Mike


Thanks guys

So you are basically saying wort from boiler > fermenter with bubbler = infection
wort from boiler > sealed cube (no bubbler) is ok?

And just so we are speaking the same lingo... a cube can be basically just one of those square plastic water holders?


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## bonj (2/7/07)

Hey SicOfVic,

I've used fermenters a couple of times, but sealed (no airlock hole). That's worked okay, and a few other guys seem to to that too. I had a Willow 20L jerry, but it didn't seal all that well, so I only used it twice (It got progressively worse).

I've been given a cube (Thanks Browndog!), but I haven't used it yet. I need to put on another brew. My first AG just ran dry.


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## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

Bonj said:


> Hey SicOfVic,
> 
> I've used fermenters a couple of times, but sealed (no airlock hole). That's worked okay, and a few other guys seem to to that too. I had a Willow 20L jerry, but it didn't seal all that well, so I only used it twice (It got progressively worse).



I think I've always assumed that fermenters with airlock holes & a bubbler with water were sealed! But I guess I am learning they are not the same at all....

I could probably do some searches, but what do most people use to get their best seal? Do kegs work ok?


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## MVZOOM (2/7/07)

The basic deal is that you want to keep the wort away from air whilst it's not fermenting. At that point it's in it's most easy to spoil as it's un-protected, so the quicker you can get yeast in, the better. 

More time = more chance of infection, unless you seal the container with all of the air out. 

Cheers - Mike


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## Screwtop (2/7/07)

Couple of problems as I see things. 1. Should transfer to whatever vessell, cube of fermenter immediately after flame out, you want hot wort to sterilise/pasteurise the receiving vessel. 2. The vessell should be sealed until the yeast is pitched (not airlocked where air will be drawn in as the wort cools and shrinks). If using a fermenter seal up the airlock grommet hole with a bung or something, then pitch when the wort cools to pitching temp and put the airlock in the lid. If using a cube, rack to a fermenter when required and pitch your yeast then fit an airlock.


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## Kingy (2/7/07)

i think seeing as tho your doing ur first Ag's and to be safe, racking to a cube and squeezing all the air out of it with your knees then putting the lid on would be your safest bet at not letting an infection take hold if your doing "no chill".

i always wait 48 hours just to be super safe that the temp has dropped as i wouldnt be game enough to stick a thermometer in there after 24 hours to check incase it was still a little high.

that way i know after 48 hours its definately in the temp range that my shed gets to and i can empty into the fermenter and add the yeast straight away.


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## SicOfVic (2/7/07)

Screwtop said:


> Couple of problems as I see things. 1. Should transfer to whatever vessell, cube of fermenter immediately after flame out, you want hot wort to sterilise/pasteurise the receiving vessel. 2. The vessell should be sealed until the yeast is pitched (not airlocked where air will be drawn in as the wort cools and shrinks). If using a fermenter seal up the airlock grommet hole with a bung or something, then pitch when the wort cools to pitching temp and put the airlock in the lid. If using a cube, rack to a fermenter when required and pitch your yeast then fit an airlock.


Thanks screwtop, that sums it up perfectly.
Expensive mistake.
Bah, and i was worried about stuck sparges etc. 

I think I will have to invest in some cubes. All my vessels i've drilled holes in (except 1) as i have always had an airlock in my primary/sec fermenters. Fortunately for brew #3 i decided to try something different (brewed it yesterday) and racked it to my only permanently sealed vessel.

So I guess the only thing I need to know now is how long can i leave a brew in a sealed cube before pitching ? obv pitching as soon as it cools would be ideal... but knowing my organisation that always wont be the case....


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## Ross (2/7/07)

If there's contamination in the air then it will be drawn into the fermenter as it cools - Fit a sterile filter into your airlock hole & this will no longer be an issue. I cool worts down in the fermenter often & never lost a brew.

cheers Ross


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## hughman666 (2/7/07)

Ross said:


> If there's contamination in the air then it will be drawn into the fermenter as it cools - Fit a sterile filter into your airlock hole & this will no longer be an issue. I cool worts down in the fermenter often & never lost a brew.
> 
> cheers Ross



slightly off-topic ross, but you have 23 beers listed as on tap in your signature....have you added a new font? any pics


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## Ross (2/7/07)

hughman666 said:


> slightly off-topic ross, but you have 23 beers listed as on tap in your signature....have you added a new font? any pics



i wish - a 2nd tier would be good  ... they are all on tap, just not all at once B) 

Cheers ross


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## DJR (2/7/07)

Ross said:


> If there's contamination in the air then it will be drawn into the fermenter as it cools - Fit a sterile filter into your airlock hole & this will no longer be an issue. I cool worts down in the fermenter often & never lost a brew.
> 
> cheers Ross



A piece of cotton wool soaked in Iodophor would also work fine using the same rationale.


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## PostModern (2/7/07)

SicOfVic said:


> So I guess the only thing I need to know now is how long can i leave a brew in a sealed cube before pitching ? obv pitching as soon as it cools would be ideal... but knowing my organisation that always wont be the case....



If you do it right, no chill wort will last for months and months and months, just like the wort packs at your LHBS.

1. Sanitise the f^$% out of the cube, its lid and the transfer hose. 

2. All of the above should be food grade. The cube made of HDPE and the hose something that will stand the heat of 90C+ wort without deforming.

3. Rack into cube, eliminate air, seal immediately with a tight lid and turn the cube upside down (so the very hot wort enters the handle and the lid, sanitising them. The heat of filling will take care of the base, turn immediately while hot).

4. Wait until you're ready to pitch.

If something has gone wrong, the cube will swell. I've pitched no chill worts 3-4 months after brewing them. Take care of your cubes between brews. After [some arbitrary number] of brews, it's recommended to retire the cubes from no chill packing to prevent the chance of heat resistant spores building up in them. They can come in handy as cold conditioning containers. 

Long live No Chill!


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## Weizguy (2/7/07)

I know that it doesn't pay to assume anything, so I'm asking if you sanitised the fermentor before adding the hot wort. Always a great idea. Not being nasty here, just asking because it wasn't mentioned, and in case it's something you hadn't considered.

And, in the same vein, do you disassemble your tap and clean it thoroughly between brews?

Apart from that, it seems reasonable to suggest that you put some metho or cheap vodka in the airlock, and then plug with some dry or Iodophor-soaked cotton wool. Dry cotton wool should be OK if using alcohol in the airlock. Then screw the lid on tight, to keep the beasties out, and the only way they can get in is through the alcohol-filled airlock.

After all that, I'd recommend to pitch yeast within a couple of days of wort creation, to minimise the chance of contamination in a pseudo-sanitary set-up.

For a fair bit more confidence in your sanitation, use a cube/ jerry-can for a true no-chill.

To reiterate what others have said in many, many threads before: please search for more info on this site. I'd suggest reading more of the no-chill thread, or the no-chill spot in the wiki when/if someone puts it together, and the "no-chill in a fermenter" thread.

Best of luck with the next one. That's gotta put a huge dent in your enthusiasm for all-grain. A poor result with my first all-grain, due to a lack of proper equipment delayed my venture into the depths of brew-mania that comes from grain brewing.

Beerz
Seth


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## Uncle Fester (3/7/07)

PostModern said:


> If you do it right, no chill wort will last for months and months and months, just like the wort packs at your LHBS.
> 
> 1. Sanitise the f^$% out of the cube, its lid and the transfer hose.
> 
> ...




Further to that, my cubes spend their off season between brews in a spare bathroom filled with a solution of dishwasher powder and water.

Same rule applies for my fermenters between beers. I also store all of my hoses etc in the filled fermenter.

Fester.


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## jimmyjack (3/7/07)

I rack hot wort into fermenter immediately. then let cool for anywhere from 1 to 4 days. I have never stuffed around with my airlock just kept my bubbler on without any water. I have occasionly put plastic wrap over the bubbler as my bubbler lid is wonky. I have never had an infection doing no chill. I think the problm lies elswhere in your procedures. What is your cleaning regime for your fermenter? How do you drain the wort into your no chill container?


Cheers, JJ


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## Lukes (3/7/07)

SicOfVic said:


> I think I will have to invest in some cubes.



The cleaning supply place (across from the Kilsyth club) on the corner of Canterbury and Colchester road in Kilsyth sell them.
They have a few sizes to depending on your batch size.
Hope it helps.

- Luke


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## Steve (3/7/07)

SicofVic - after you've cooled for 20-30 mins do you rack gently into the fermenter or let it splash?
Cheers
Steve


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## SicOfVic (3/7/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I know that it doesn't pay to assume anything, so I'm asking if you sanitised the fermentor before adding the hot wort. Always a great idea. Not being nasty here, just asking because it wasn't mentioned, and in case it's something you hadn't considered.
> 
> And, in the same vein, do you disassemble your tap and clean it thoroughly between brews?
> 
> ...



Hey Seth

Yep very careful with the santisation - fermenter / pipes all soaked for an hourish in iodophor prior to use. I must admit, i dont disassemble the taps each use - but i do ensure i run some iodophor thru them prior to use. I think i will invest in some cubes for my next brews.

As for the dent in enthusiasm - yes, but i'm too stubborn to let it go now! Besides, think of all the extra kilo's i won't have to shed due to me consuming those first couple of beers!


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## SicOfVic (3/7/07)

jimmyjack said:


> I rack hot wort into fermenter immediately. then let cool for anywhere from 1 to 4 days. I have never stuffed around with my airlock just kept my bubbler on without any water. I have occasionly put plastic wrap over the bubbler as my bubbler lid is wonky. I have never had an infection doing no chill. I think the problm lies elswhere in your procedures. What is your cleaning regime for your fermenter? How do you drain the wort into your no chill container?
> Cheers, JJ



Hi JJ

Cleaning regime is the same it's always been - straight after use nappisan soak it for a day and use a soft towel to clean it... When I am about to use it, fill it with iodophor & also sterilise the lid/seal/bubbler etc. The wort is drained via a SS tap & food grade hose, which resides at the bottom of the boiler. Again, this is sterilised before use.

The only thing I can think of causing this issue - is the bubbler (filled with water). At the moment I have beer #3 in a sealed cube, so if this one doesnt spoil, i think i can safely attribute it to the bubbler.


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## SicOfVic (3/7/07)

Steve said:


> SicofVic - after you've cooled for 20-30 mins do you rack gently into the fermenter or let it splash?
> Cheers
> Steve



Hi Steve

Gently.


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## troywhite (3/7/07)

Boy sounds like a strange one. 

You do way way way more sterilising than me (I haven't sterilised my mash tun yet, in fact I don't sterilise anything pre-boil).

It is definitely what the earlier guys have said. If you put an airlock on a hot liquid as it cools the pressure will cause the liquid in the airlock to draw back into the wort (big drama). 

Reverse thing happens with a cool wort in hot environment. In Canberra weather my brews will often let off a bubble or two around the afternoon as the temp climbs even though they have finished fermenting and are just waiting for transfer to cube/keg.

I use no chill method, but directly in my fermenter. My method is to get liquid into fermenter from boiler. I then put the lid on but I don't insert an airlock. 

I have a clean cloth soaked in no-rinse (I use prox) which I then drape over the top of the fermenter. 

I then leave the brew overnight and Canberra's winter night does the rest. 8AM the next morning and the wort is down to roughly 25 degrees.

I've done my only two all grains to date using this method and both have been fine (and incredibly tasty and drinkable  ... god I love this all grain caper not going back to kits now )

Hopefully you can eradicate the infection in the fermenters!

Troy


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## SicOfVic (3/7/07)

troywhite said:


> Boy sounds like a strange one.
> 
> You do way way way more sterilising than me (I haven't sterilised my mash tun yet, in fact I don't sterilise anything pre-boil).
> 
> ...



Hey troy,
Thanks for feedback.
I am definately going to invest in a couple of cubes as suggested in this thread. Pouring beer down the sink is enough to bring a grown man to tears, so if the cubes can relieve these infections it's a small price to pay. I also want the option of pitching yeast at my leisure, and the cube option seems like the only way of doing this.

Doing another AG this weekend, so if this one goes nicely I will be a happy camper.

Cheers


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## Steve (3/7/07)

Sorry to hijack Sic
Troy....after its cooled overnight in your fermenter do you pour into another fermenter to airate the wort?
Cheers
Steve


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## troywhite (3/7/07)

Steve said:


> Troy....after its cooled overnight in your fermenter do you pour into another fermenter to airate the wort?
> Cheers
> Steve



No, I just pitch straight into the fermenter it cooled in. On both occassions it has "started" within a few hours and fermented out as usual.


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## Ross (3/7/07)

troywhite said:


> No, I just pitch straight into the fermenter it cooled in. On both occassions it has "started" within a few hours and fermented out as usual.



same here  - If using dried yeast the wort doesn't need aerating. Even with liquids it would appear that just aerating the starter properly is sufficient, though personally in this case, I'd want to aerate the wort as well.

cheers Ross


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## Steve (3/7/07)

Ross said:


> same here  - If using dried yeast the wort doesn't need aerating. Even with liquids it would appear that just aerating the starter properly is sufficient, though personally in this case, I'd want to aerate the wort as well.
> 
> cheers Ross




There you go....learn something new every day. I think a no chill is on the cards for my next AG h34r: . Thanks Troy and Ross.
Steve


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## PistolPatch (3/7/07)

Great to hear you are stubborn SicOfVic. As Seth said, it's really dissapointing when a first AG goes wrong.

I always hear good reports of no-chill but only know the principles from a distance so my following comments could well be wrong...

I'm guessing here but I think no-chill could be spilt into two categories and often people are talking about the two different situations in the same thread....

1. You Want to Pitch ASAP or the Next Day: This would be desired by those who do not have a chilling device but can brew on a regular basis.

2. You Want to Pitch A Considerable Time Later: This would be desired by those who want to brew a lot of wort in a short amount of time that can be fermented later at their leisure.

Obviously, the best ways that need to be applied in the above situations are totally different. I would imagine that in the first instance, any use of a cube could be avoided.

But, I don't really know so what hope does a new guy have - lol?

In this thread, I can see at least three well-written and informative posts. I'd love to see you guys write an article on all this stuff. Maybe two - 'No-Chill Immediate' and 'No-Chill Long-Term.'

Yep, it'd be really good to see that.

Spot ya,
Pat


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## SicOfVic (5/7/07)

PistolPatch said:


> Great to hear you are stubborn SicOfVic. As Seth said, it's really dissapointing when a first AG goes wrong.
> 
> I always hear good reports of no-chill but only know the principles from a distance so my following comments could well be wrong...
> 
> ...



hey Pat

Thats basically where I went wrong.
In all honesty, I didnt really know there were two types of methods used to Nochill. I should have done more reading, but my paranoia was more concentrated on the whole all grain process, sparging etc.

i read somewhere u could then nochill for almost any length of time until u wanted to pitch, and I kind of just assumed this would be fine. I also read something about pitching into fermenters... so i kinda put the two together... obv this ain't a good idea! Anyway, I am now armed with a few airtight cubes, and a little bit more knowledge, so a Belgian Wit AG will be brewing first thing this weekend.

looking forward to that first drinkable AG! btw - I think it was your batch sparging guide i followed to initiate myself in the AG process - and that part ran smooth as silk. So thanks!


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## peas_and_corn (5/7/07)

SicOfVic said:


> However, my first two all grain batches are experiencing issues. I sterilised all equipment prior to use -: mash tuns, boilers, fermenters, equipment the usual.






troywhite said:


> You do way way way more sterilising than me (I haven't sterilised my mash tun yet, in fact I don't sterilise anything pre-boil).




Indeed that was what I was thinking when I read the first post. I've never sanitised anything before the fermenter, and I didn't think that it was necessary- I think you can save on iodophor by not sanitising your mash tun or boiler


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## Beejay (5/7/07)

peas_and_corn said:


> Indeed that was what I was thinking when I read the first post. I've never sanitised anything before the fermenter, and I didn't think that it was necessary- I think you can save on iodophor by not sanitising your mash tun or boiler



It is worth a listen to the Basic Brewing podcasts (www.basicbrewing.com) too on the correct use of Iodophor. I was amazed to find out that I have been overusing it and have since cut usage down dramatically. Like most, I started off cleaning and soaking the ferementer and other post boils items in a full fermenter of approx 10 ml of iodophor to the full 25 odd litres of water, and soaking it for a long time (at least 30 mins). Whilst this concentration is pretty much correct ( a little high but not too bad), the gent who did the podcast (who manufactures the stuff and hence has no real reason to tell us to use less) has stated that as long as your fermenter is clean, you really only need a couple of cups worth of mixed Iodophor solution to sanitise everything. No need to soak, you simply need to thrown a couple of cups of the solution into the fermenter and shake and splash it around inside so as to wet all surfaces. Tip it out and wait 2 mins (yep only 2 minutes contact time) and you are sanitised. As he stated, if you look under a microscope (the bloke is an industrial chemist remember), the surface at the micro level is actually still wet with the solution.

Have a listen to the podcast, definitely worth the listen. Podcast is called "Using Iodohpor properly" and is released 23/03/07


Also, the podcast the following week talks with the creator of Star San, and interestingly he spends most of hte podcast talking the virtues of using bleach properly to sanitise. Have a listen as it explains how to use bleach and vinegar in water solution (heed the warnings too!!!!) to create a very effective, low cost, no rinse santiser.

I have a listen to most of the basic brewing podcasts and they are a great source of technical know how with all of the experts they interview. They cover yeasts, hops, grains, and all in very good detail.

Cheers,

Beejay


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## fixa (15/7/07)

Having read this post when it came out, and thought "Poor buggar, i'd hate that"... it happened. A couple of weeks ago i did a double batch, one straight into the fermenter, the other into a cube. Yesterday was out in the shed, saw the cube puffed up like a balloon. " Gosh, thats unfortunate" i proclaimed quietly.. not. 
So i'm chucking my cubes, and getting new ones. I may have been a little slack with cube sanitation in the past, but they always had a week soak in nappisan prior to use, then hot wort transfer to finally steralise. I'm buggared if i know what it could be if not the cube. The other brew i put down has finished fermenting, tastes fine. Dunno.....


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## SicOfVic (27/7/07)

Just an update from your resident beer spoiler.

Bought a couple of cubes & proceeded to make an American Brown & a Belgian Wit. Both in the cube for 2 weeks plus & pitched yeast into the Belgian Wit last weekend. Taste test number 1 today and it is tasting heavenly. American Brown has no issues also, and i will pitch this weekend.

So cubing is definately the way to go for me. A little bit more work, but worth it for the peace of mind IMO. Thanks to everyone who responded to my thread, I was almost ready to chuck in the towel. But thanks to the helpful advice, i believe this is the start of a long and loving relationship with all grain. :super: 

Sic


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## PostModern (27/7/07)

SicOfVic said:


> Just an update from your resident beer spoiler.
> 
> Bought a couple of cubes & proceeded to make an American Brown & a Belgian Wit. Both in the cube for 2 weeks plus & pitched yeast into the Belgian Wit last weekend. Taste test number 1 today and it is tasting heavenly. American Brown has no issues also, and i will pitch this weekend.
> 
> ...



Excellent stuff. Thanks for posting back. We all love to hear a brewing success story!

I posted my foolproof method earlier in this thread. If you follow the same safe method every time, it will work out. It's pretty much what all the IBU's do and appart from Scotty's attempt at developing "chuck the cube in the pool method", it's not gone awry. When you think about it, wort at pasteurisation temperature, heat entire cube with said heat, exclude oxygen, clean cube.... how can it go wrong?


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