# Water Profiles



## the_fuzz (22/7/08)

Hey Guys,

I just got my local water report (Prospect North) and everything is in ?/L - when looking in "how to brew" they do everything in PPM - is there a simple calculation to change x/ml to PPM?

Or does anyone else use the same water as me and add stuff - if so what do you add as a standard for an American Ale or British Ale?


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## goatherder (22/7/08)

mg/l is the same as ppm


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## PostModern (22/7/08)

mg/l = ppm

EDIT: SNAP!


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## the_fuzz (22/7/08)

thanks guys - very much appreciated

On a side note - for American and British ales, is it worth messing with the water or is the outcome negligible


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## crozdog (22/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> thanks guys - very much appreciated
> 
> On a side note - for American and British ales, is it worth messing with the water or is the outcome negligible



WWWH,
Sydney water is pretty soft. Water treatment will help with many styles eg english bitters


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## MCT (22/7/08)

crozdog said:


> WWWH,
> Sydney water is pretty soft. Water treatment will help with many styles eg english bitters



Interesting. I'm brewing an ESB this weekend, any ideas on additions on getting Sydney water up to par?


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## PostModern (22/7/08)

A handful of gypsum, pinch of Epsom salts and a teaspoon of calcium chloride. Goes well with a mash of a bucket of base malt and about half a pint glass of crystal. Wollongong water is similar to Sydney, I understand. This is what I add and it works well.


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## bigfridge (22/7/08)

PostModern said:


> A handful of gypsum, pinch of Epsom salts and a teaspoon of calcium chloride. Goes well with a mash of a bucket of base malt and about half a pint glass of crystal. Wollongong water is similar to Sydney, I understand. This is what I add and it works well.



PoMo, your recipe reminds me of the definition of an Engineer:

Someone who measures with a Micrometer, Marks with chalk and cuts it with an Axe


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## schooey (22/7/08)

bigfridge said:


> PoMo, your recipe reminds me of the definition of an Engineer:
> 
> Someone who measures with a Micrometer, Marks with chalk and cuts it with an Axe



:huh: 

Now that's just nasty, Dave... <_< 

Back on topic, does anyone have a water profile for Newcastle? or any idea where it sits on the scale between soft and hard?


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## cliffo (22/7/08)

schooey said:


> :huh:
> 
> Now that's just nasty, Dave... <_<
> 
> Back on topic, does anyone have a water profile for Newcastle? or any idea where it sits on the scale between soft and hard?



Looks a few years old but here ya go:

Hunter Water


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## PostModern (22/7/08)

bigfridge said:


> PoMo, your recipe reminds me of the definition of an Engineer:
> 
> Someone who measures with a Micrometer, Marks with chalk and cuts it with an Axe



Ask Scotty about the bitter on tap atm. What works, works.


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## sponge (22/7/08)

bigfridge said:


> PoMo, your recipe reminds me of the definition of an Engineer:
> 
> Someone who measures with a Micrometer, Marks with chalk and cuts it with an Axe



At least i know where my degree will get me...


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## LethalCorpse (22/7/08)

bigfridge said:


> PoMo, your recipe reminds me of the definition of an Engineer:
> 
> Someone who measures with a Micrometer, Marks with chalk and cuts it with an Axe


Oh, that's not always true. Sometimes we measure with handbreadths, mark with crayon, and cut with a laser.


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## kabooby (22/7/08)

MCT said:


> Interesting. I'm brewing an ESB this weekend, any ideas on additions on getting Sydney water up to par?



I would brew it without the additions first. If you think it still needs something try it on the next batch. You always need a point to base your additions.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:


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## Linz (22/7/08)

you sure about the Gypsum PoMo???


I put a teaspoon of Gyp into a 40L batch of APA and we ended up calling it "The Road Licker"!!!! Pulled the hops right up front and was soooo dry..Puckering to be more correct!!


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## PostModern (22/7/08)

Sorry. Not gypsum, calcium carbonate


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## the_fuzz (23/7/08)

goatherder said:


> mg/l is the same as ppm




Just going off the above measurement. If I look in "How to brew" it talks about what specs the water should be in between - my water (according to Syd water) is so far below the "specs" from how to brew it is not funny.

When I get home I will show some comparisons from the water report and how to brew

Or maybe I am reading it wrong....... <_<


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## Stuster (23/7/08)

No, you're not reading it wrong, WWWH. Sydney water is really soft. It's low in calcium especially compared to 'good' brewing water. A bit of gypsum and/or calcium chloride is good to use to get the mash pH right IMO, but then again there are plenty of brewers who don't use any and seem to make good beer. :huh:


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## kabooby (23/7/08)

I never used to adjust my water. The last 6 brews I have added some 5.2 and have not noticed any difference. I admit that it hasn't been the most accurate comparisons. To be conclusive I need to brew identical beers and only adjust the water, and I havn't done that.

I have always been happy with my beers. My malty beers seem to be malty and the hoppy beers I have made have always been hoppy enough. Starting to make a few more lagers now and have even found them to be nice and balanced.

I am going to try and brew this weekend so I might give it a go. Beers might be even better

Kabooby


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## PostModern (23/7/08)

According to the science, calcium ions are needed in the mash water for the enzymes in malt to fully convert the starches. In theory, calcium deficient hot liquor should lead to lower conversion and efficiency. There must be some calcium in malt, but I don't know if it's enough? I take science on board, but to me, personally, brewing is not a science, but a craft, and in some ways, an art. But the bits science tells us are handy to know.

In any event, Sydney and Wollongong's water is soft enough for measures such as "a handful" of calcium carbonate and a pinch of calcium chloride, etc to produce the desired effect, which is "enough" calcium and a suitable pH for mashing, and a good mineral profile to enhance hop flavours. I don't know if microgram accurate scales for adding minerals would help me make better beer, but I doubt it.

Going back to David's analogy of the engineer with an axe, I don't find the analogy completely apt. We are making beer, which has some pretty huge tolerances, not highway bridges or skyscrapers. I'm not sure what Dave's chalk-line drawing, axe wielding engineer is building exactly, but if he's chosen those tools, he must think there is enough tolerance in his project. If not, it is doomed to failure.

I treat my brewery as more of a kitchen than a science lab, and although my beers will not always be identical, even when following the same "recipe", it's not a big deal to me, just as one pasta sauce might be more garlicky than the next. Recent infections and yeast issues aside, I enjoy all the beer I brew, such as the 1.080 IIPA that just found it's way into a cube. The malt and hop aroma coming out of the kettle was awesome. I just threw in "some" hops as the wort boiled. Yes, and a handful of calcium carbonate, a pinch of Epsom Salts and about a teaspoonful of CaCl.


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## matti (23/7/08)

kabooby said:


> I never used to adjust my water. The last 6 brews I have added some 5.2 and have not noticed any difference. I admit that it hasn't been the most accurate comparisons. To be conclusive I need to brew identical beers and only adjust the water, and I havn't done that.
> 
> I have always been happy with my beers. My malty beers seem to be malty and the hoppy beers I have made have always been hoppy enough. Starting to make a few more lagers now and have even found them to be nice and balanced.
> 
> ...


Using 5.2 in your mash it seems to me little point adjusting the brew water that going into the mash.
It's a bit like using acidulated malt and and 5.2. 
a little bit of overkill IMHO.
Unless you are talking a bout the sparge liquor.
Which I believe should have the same profile as the mash liquor.

I am with Stu adjusting the water to beer style and have gone down PoMo's path many time.
A bit of that and a bit if this etc. etc.

Though my pasta sauces are better then my beers lately...


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## the_fuzz (23/7/08)

when you guys are using Calcium Carbonate - what form is this in, where are you buying it from?


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## gap (23/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> when you guys are using Calcium Carbonate - what form is this in, where are you buying it from?




In powder form from your LHBS. Pat at Absolute Home Brew in St Marys has it as I bought some from him last week.

Regards

Graeme


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

what would people consider more important
1) Mash PH at 5.2
or
2) Water profile i.e calcium content etc


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## Stuster (24/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> what would people consider more important
> 1) Mash PH at 5.2
> or
> 2) Water profile i.e calcium content etc



Getting 2 right will lead to 1 (if you get it right .


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

Stuster said:


> Getting 2 right will lead to 1 (if you get it right .



Sorry I shoud have clarified - If I just used 5.2 Stabiliser, which obviously will not affect calcium etc - or should I use the 5.2 and also up the calcium etc?


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## gap (24/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> Sorry I shoud have clarified - If I just used 5.2 Stabiliser, which obviously will not affect calcium etc - or should I use the 5.2 and also up the calcium etc?




Isn't 5.2 used if you cannot get your mash PH to the correct level. It is not a substitute for a mineral imbalance you may have in your water.

If you correctly dose your water with the mentioned minerals you may not need to use 5.2 stabiliser at all. Do you test your mash PH before using 5.2 or just throw it in?

Regards

Graeme


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

gap said:


> Isn't 5.2 used if you cannot get your mash PH to the correct level. It is not a substitute for a mineral imbalance you may have in your water.
> 
> If you correctly dose your water with the mentioned minerals you may not need to use 5.2 stabiliser at all. Do you test your mash PH before using 5.2 or just throw it in?
> 
> ...




I haven't used 5.2 - bit of background - I've not just put down about 6-8 AG's and am now looking at the ph/water side of things. I got some PH strips (haven't used them yet) and got my local water report. Now I am just trying to understand the easiest way to get the "concentrations" correct. 

Also, obviously you can tell that Chemistry is not my thing as I didn't even realise that by changing the calcium etc concentrations would affect PH - I thought they were separate things.........


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## Stuster (24/7/08)

The changes to the water chemistry change the mash pH with gypsum and calcium chloride resulting in a lower pH, chalk raising the pH.

WRT the 5.2 stabilizer, it's really supposed to be for hard water. With the soft water we have in Sydney, it might not be exactly what you're after though I doubt it will actually do any harm. Have you read the chapter on water chemistry in How to Brew yet? It's a great read  and should help you understand what's going on. The spreadsheet with it is a bit fiddly but really helps IMO.


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

Stuster said:


> . Have you read the chapter on water chemistry in How to Brew yet? It's a great read  and should help you understand what's going on. The spreadsheet with it is a bit fiddly but really helps IMO.



First thing I am doing when I get home - had a go of the spreadsheet, but was a bit lost


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## crozdog (24/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> First thing I am doing when I get home - had a go of the spreadsheet, but was a bit lost


WWWH,

I've been meaning to play with this spreadsheet http://byo.com/brewwater/VPB_Water_Witch.xls 

It allows you to enter your water profile (Ok the one from Prospect) as well as the desired styles target values. Impit the recipe volume (in US gallons) & it will calculate the additions for you.


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

exactly what I was after - appreciated, thanks


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

ok,

Thanks for all the help so far. I went thrgh "how to brew" and now it is much more clear.

I have worked out that I need to either add 2.5 grams of Gypsum or 2 grams of chalk. I will go the Gypsum route, but in regards to the actual additions, do I add them to my water when heating or throw them into the mash at the begining once the grain and water are mixed - or is this not even relevant?

Also, where are people buying their Gypsum from?


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## Jye (24/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> I have worked out that I need to either add 2.5 grams of Gypsum or 2 grams of *chalk*.



I think you mean calcium chloride.

Add it to the mash. It will not dissolve in the HLT and will just sink to the bottom. You should also be able to get it from any _good _LHBS.


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## the_fuzz (24/7/08)

Jye said:


> I think you mean calcium chloride.
> 
> Add it to the mash. It will not dissolve in the HLT and will just sink to the bottom. You should also be able to get it from any _good _LHBS.



no, definately calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate - Chalk or Gypsum - the Chloride levels of the water in my area are good


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## Stuster (25/7/08)

What Jye is trying to say is that gypsum and calcium chloride both do the same thing, lower the pH. Chalk will raise the pH. All will add calcium ions of course. The first two are good for lighter coloured beers, chalk for darker beers. A bit more chloride won't be an issue here (within reason) and help with malty beers. Gypsum for hoppier beers.


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## Jye (25/7/08)

Stuster said:


> What Jye is trying to say is that gypsum and calcium chloride both do the same thing, lower the pH. Chalk will raise the pH. All will add calcium ions of course. The first two are good for lighter coloured beers, chalk for darker beers. A bit more chloride won't be an issue here (within reason) and help with malty beers. Gypsum for hoppier beers.



Yep, what Stu said


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## the_fuzz (25/7/08)

Stuster said:


> What Jye is trying to say is that gypsum and calcium chloride both do the same thing, lower the pH. Chalk will raise the pH. All will add calcium ions of course. The first two are good for lighter coloured beers, chalk for darker beers. A bit more chloride won't be an issue here (within reason) and help with malty beers. Gypsum for hoppier beers.



Cheers Guys,

I misread - just re-read and yes, of course you guys are right - I missed the bit in "how to brew" where it mentions that it "raises PH" - not really anything important :huh: 


Anyone know anyone in Sydney that sells Calcium Chloride or Calcium Sulfate?


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## gap (25/7/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> Cheers Guys,
> 
> I misread - just re-read and yes, of course you guys are right - I missed the bit in "how to brew" where it mentions that it "raises PH" - not really anything important :huh:
> 
> ...




Your LHBS - I know Pat at Absolute Homebrew St Mary's stocks them.


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## rich_lamb (25/7/08)

WWWH,
I thing the most important thing in mashing is getting the pH in the right ballpark. You can do this with minerals or a pre-packaged buffer like 5.2.
The minerals then go on to give you other advantages, like altering the hop character, malt flavour, good for yeast health, etc.

For my mind, it's better to learn a bit about the chemistry (never use it if you don't know what it does - you are more likely to do damage than good) and use the correct balance of minerals for your starting point and what you want to achieve. Using nothing is perfectly OK too. Start by using those pH strips and see what your situation is for a few different brews.
Calcium Chloride is probably the most useful one to start with - it's useful for just about everything..


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## the_fuzz (25/7/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> WWWH,
> I thing the most important thing in mashing is getting the pH in the right ballpark. You can do this with minerals or a pre-packaged buffer like 5.2.
> The minerals then go on to give you other advantages, like altering the hop character, malt flavour, good for yeast health, etc.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I used the "nanograph" from the "how to brew" website and then used it to determine how much I would need of each "mineral" to achieve the PH required for a particular brew. My biggest problem was that I never really sat down and read the stuff on water chemistry properly, I would just skim through and think it is all to hard. Having sat down and read through it for a couple of hours and using the help here, I think I'm getting my head around it

Next weekend, I will have my minerals and PH papers in hand and give it a shot.

Everyone here has been a great help and this is very much appreciated, thanks


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## LethalCorpse (25/7/08)

Fairly OT, but has anyone's reading about water chemistry uncovered anything about the difference between mineral water, carbonated water and soda water? I'd like to make up some mineral water when I get kegging, and would like to be able to do it better then just gassing water, presumably by adding minerals


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## Stuster (25/7/08)

LC, PoMo had a thread about just that. Link.


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## LethalCorpse (25/7/08)

Thanks Stuster, I'll keep going over there


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