# Nightmare on Brew Street



## stakka82 (19/4/13)

Hey guys,

From time to time I read about member's brewery infection issues, and think 'thank god that's not me'.

Except this time I think it is me. ****.

I have had a lack of hop aroma in the last 5 or so brews with a slight chemical smell. Initially I thought it was the Keg King sanitiser but now I think it might be infection. I switched to starsan and the last couple of beers have actually been a lot worse.

Hard to describe, but an old boot/slight chemical smell, and the worst one was basically undrinkable (keghopped the bejesus out of it and fed it to drunk mates at a party though, waste not, want not) but they have all exhibited similar characteristics. Beers with heavy late hopping and heavy dry hopping have about 10% the aroma they should, with the aforementioned smell. That worst one had the same taste as the smell in droves... and lack of malt/hop taste too.

I remember reading some infections strip hop aroma so after eliminating my sanitiser as the issue I figure it must be infection. The only other thing I can think of is that someone (can't remember who) recently posted that they had a drop of stale beer in a gas line that was fouling all their beers and it might be that, although I think I can taste a slight version of the issue in the fermenter (might be, not sure, could be dreaming).

I have had 40 odd AGs prior to this without an issue. Generally I think my sanitation is pretty good. I am honestly pulling my hair out now, and the next step will be to go to Grain and Grape tomorrow and buy a new fermenter, gas and beer lines, transfer hose, and disassemble keezer and sanitise everything. 

Thoughts on what it could be?

Should I bother trying nuke my other 3 fermenters? Has anyone actually successfully cleared a chronic brewery infection? I don't want to run the risk of reinfecting new stuff I buy tomorrow.

Also, is bleach ok to use on stainless? Kegs taps etc.

Thanks.


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## manticle (19/4/13)

Keep sodium hyperchlorite (chlorine bleach) away from stainless.

Definitely get a new fermenter and lines. Also, after cleaning and sanitising the bejesus out of everything, try something simple like adding yeast directly to a fresh wort kit and fermenting in it.

Pull apart all taps, clean with hot sodium percarb then sanitise. Anything plastic can get bleach treatment and a boiling water rinse, followed by a good dose of starsan.

As for identifying the infection, it's hard to say. Lacto can strip malt and hop flavour, some wild yeasts can give medicinal flavours as can unrinsed chlorine.

Lacto can be common due to its presence on grain - any grain dust flying around your fermenting area?

By the way - I did have a spate of infections I managed to get rid of but never identified the exact cause.

I got rid of it by cleaning everything, then rinsing with boiling water, then all plastic/non metals were soaked in bleach solution, then rinsed with boiling water, then hit with sodium metabisulphite, then rinsed with boiling water, then starsanned. I also started fermenting directly in the no-chill cube.


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## labels (19/4/13)

I had an infected keg once. I did use bleach sucsessfully to clear the infection. However, I read somewhere a few years back that bleach used in an acidic solution can be as much as ten times more potent. I used a weak solution of bleach in a solution of about pH 2.5 using phosphoric acid - you can use Starsan here as it is phosphoric based.

Just guessing but the lower chlorine levels combined with the acid did not have any affect on the stainless whatsoever. I think the acid was the protecting factor.

Steve


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## Beersuit (19/4/13)

I had an infection in my brewery about 7 months ago. Ever beer I brewed tasted foul. It spread from cube to cube and into all my fermenters.
Turned out to be a couple of specks of grain stuck in my pump and mash tun tap.

Filled my kettle with a heavy dose of sodium hydroxide and water and one by one submerged every piece of kit I had in it at 80 degrees for 15 mins. Fermenters cubes the whole lot. Rinse, starsan and use. 

It hasn't come back yet but now when ever I'm starting brews I hit every fermenter and cube with boiling water before I starsan and use. 
Mash tun tap and pump pulled apart after each brew.


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## jc64 (20/4/13)

I have never pulled apart my mash tun ball valve, just give it a good rinse and it should be fine. I run sod perc through the pump and boil kettle for about 30 minutes after use, then rinse with hot water for the same amount of time. I would have thought this would be enough to ensure that at least the wort from my kettle into fermentor is sound. Grain can't stick in a March pump can it?


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## manticle (20/4/13)

Should be fine right up until you get an infection. If you never get one then it stays fine. OP however has one, a persistent one so it's not fine.
When that happens pull out all stops, check in every hidey hole.


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## stakka82 (20/4/13)

Yeah that's gotta be the order of the day unfortunately. You're gonna do something, do it properly hey. I have nightmares of this shit still being an issue 3 months from now and I will do everything in my power to get rid of it, within reason.

Thanks for the heads up on stainless manticle. I've never used bleach prior to this so that can't be it. I don't know about lacto, but I've had aceto (and probably still have) from the tap drippings in my garage. Is aceto known to do the same? Don't know if it could be wild yeast, but I wouldn't describe it as medicinal, although some people could I guess.

No grain floating around my fermentation/kegging area. I brew stove top big w style in the kitchen, mill my grain in the living room in a blender, and ferment in a fridge in the garage, which is where my keezer is. I'm also going to bomb the fridge with bleach and boiling hot water over the garage floor. This is hell.


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## stakka82 (20/4/13)

The worst part is I have a 50l braumeister sitting here in my living room, and I just got the 15 amp socket done for the garage.

But I'm not going to touch it until I get this sorted, 50 litres of shit is much worse than 19.


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## jc64 (20/4/13)

I was just curious as to how the tap on my mash tun could lead to infections? Everything's boiled after it exits that and than I recirculate the boiling wort through the pump. If I get infections issues I was thinking it would be on the fermentor side I may have to reconsider

Sorry my initial reply was not at the OP but the comment about the grain stuck in the pump. Cheers


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## manticle (20/4/13)

Boiling won't necessarily kill everything. Anyone who suggests to me that they don't clean because it will get boiled anyway I ask - if you worked in a kitchen would you clean the beef stockpot after use or leave it manky because, after all, it gets boiled for 24 hours.

And besides - even if it's not 'microbially' active, why would you want the off black crusty shit anywhere near your beer?


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## jc64 (20/4/13)

I scrub the boil kettle obviously, and wash out the mash tun. Are touch saying that you disassemble your march pump along with your ball valves after each brew?

No black crusty Shit anywhere near my beer that I'm aware of. Maybe I wasn't clear last night.


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## goomboogo (20/4/13)

jc64 said:


> I scrub the boil kettle obviously, and wash out the mash tun. Are touch saying that you disassemble your march pump along with your ball valves after each brew?
> 
> No black crusty Shit anywhere near my beer that I'm aware of. Maybe I wasn't clear last night.


I disassemble my ball valves after every brew. This includes the mash tun. It may be overkill but I feel better for doing it.

Stakka82, when was the last time you changed all the seals on your kegs?


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## Beersuit (20/4/13)

jc64 said:


> I was just curious as to how the tap on my mash tun could lead to infections? Everything's boiled after it exits that and than I recirculate the boiling wort through the pump. If I get infections issues I was thinking it would be on the fermentor side I may have to reconsider
> 
> Sorry my initial reply was not at the OP but the comment about the grain stuck in the pump. Cheers


I used to recirculate with PBW and rinse with hot water but as Manticle mentioned once its there it's hard to get rid of. When I pulled it all apart I could smell that that's where it came from, putrid manky socks comes to mind. 

The wort has already been in contact with a huge population of something nasty for 90 minutes while mashing and recirculating so its had a nice head start to get to work leaving an astringent flavor. You may kill the bugs in the wort by boiling it but its too late. The damage has been done.


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## WarmBeer (20/4/13)

jc64 said:


> I have never pulled apart my mash tun ball valve, just give it a good rinse and it should be fine. I run sod perc through the pump and boil kettle for about 30 minutes after use, then rinse with hot water for the same amount of time.


Maybe give it a try, and let us know the results of the "sniff" test. For science.

Yes, it's pre-boil, but could definitely contribute "off" flavour into your kettle which wont be boiled away.

I pull mine apart every 2 or 3 brews, just to be sure. It's only a 5 minute job once you've got it figured out in your head.


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## Nick JD (20/4/13)

Do you dismantle and clean your fermenter taps?


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## jc64 (20/4/13)

WarmBeer said:


> Maybe give it a try, and let us know the results of the "sniff" test. For science.
> 
> Yes, it's pre-boil, but could definitely contribute "off" flavour into your kettle which wont be boiled away.
> 
> I pull mine apart every 2 or 3 brews, just to be sure. It's only a 5 minute job once you've got it figured out in your head.


I've put my cleaning process down in another thread, all I can smell is PBW. I really didn't think everyone took apart their ball valves that often.


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## manticle (20/4/13)

jc64 said:


> I scrub the boil kettle obviously, and wash out the mash tun. Are touch saying that you disassemble your march pump along with your ball valves after each brew?
> 
> No black crusty Shit anywhere near my beer that I'm aware of. Maybe I wasn't clear last night.


My system is a lot simpler - no march pumps and I have simple ball valves. Them and fermenter taps pulled apart, soaked in hot sodium percarbonate every brew and starsanned.

If you're not getting off flavours then your process is working for you. If you get some then you go through, step by step to find and eliminate possible causes.

As mentioned above I once had a spate of infections and it's pretty damn disheartening mashing and boiling for 4 hours, nursing for a couple of weeks and tipping the lot down the drain. Do that multiple times and you consider giving up.


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## Bribie G (20/4/13)

If you are going to replace all your fermenters I'd recommend the Bunnings square 30L models and grab a few $2 taps while you are there. That way you'll have a "virgin" system when you get to fire up the Braumeister.


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## stakka82 (20/4/13)

goomboogo said:


> I disassemble my ball valves after every brew. This includes the mash tun. It may be overkill but I feel better for doing it.
> 
> Stakka82, when was the last time you changed all the seals on your kegs?


I built my keezer about 9 months ago, and got all new seals for kegs at that point. So the age of the seals probably ranges from 6-9 months.





Nick JD said:


> Do you dismantle and clean your fermenter taps?


Nah, not regularly and I know I should. The last time I did was probably 6 months ago. I will certainly be doing that today though. 

I don't have any taps on my kettle which is also the mash tun ala BIAB.







manticle said:


> As mentioned above I once had a spate of infections and it's pretty damn disheartening mashing and boiling for 4 hours, nursing for a couple of weeks and tipping the lot down the drain. Do that multiple times and you consider giving up.



Yeah that sums it up really.


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## manticle (20/4/13)

Definitely break apart the fermenter taps. I do every brew and it's dead simple. Always a touch of crud in there.


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## stakka82 (20/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> If you are going to replace all your fermenters I'd recommend the Bunnings square 30L models and grab a few $2 taps while you are there. That way you'll have a "virgin" system when you get to fire up the Braumeister.


How much are they a pop? I will get one replacement fermenter today, and am going to ferment a test batch in the house rather than the fermenting fridge/garage using brand new transfer hose to the keg, which I am going to town on right now. If after doing this and using new lines in keezer and cleaning that I'm still in trouble, then I may take that option as it is most likely cheaper for a full replace.


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## Nick JD (20/4/13)

stakka82 said:


> Nah, not regularly and I know I should. The last time I did was probably 6 months ago. I will certainly be doing that today though.


Make sure you smell the thing just after you pop the sleeve out. It'll be a wakeup call. Will smell like a dead rat.

There's a thread on how to pop taps apart here somewhere. After pulling a tap apart and smelling it a while back, I strongly believe that the tap is the source of most homebrewing infections.


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## manticle (20/4/13)

So easy to pull apart. Takes about 5 seconds.

piece of dowel that fits in the thread end, grip main tap shaft and dowel, with thumb holding the exit point of the main tap shaft, bang free end of dowel sharply on concrete or other hard surface, tap separates into two pieces.


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## WarmBeer (20/4/13)

manticle said:


> So easy to pull apart. Takes about 5 seconds.
> 
> piece of dowel that fits in the thread end, grip main tap shaft and dowel, with thumb holding the exit point of the main tap shaft, bang free end of dowel sharply on concrete or other hard surface, tap separates into two pieces.


Even easier if you soak the tap in hot water for about 5 mins beforehand, as it softens the plastic slightly.


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## stakka82 (8/7/13)

Update:

I pulled apart everything I had after starting this thread and soaked everything in boiling water and sodium perc, then rinsed with boiling water then starsanned. Pulled all fermenter taps apart and did the same. Soaked everything in starsan twice just for good measure.

I then had a run of about 5 infection free beers. Not a single off flavour, in fact a couple of those were among the best I've ever brewed. But...

I pitched a cube of citra pale ale the other day and let it ferment out, at which time I tasted it while hydro testing and it had the same smell and flavour of the previous infections but in a very slight way. I thought I might be dreaming it so I dry hopped and cold crashed it anyway. A few days later when I went to keg I tasted it and it was foul, tasted and smelt the same but worse than the last bad run.

I tipped the whole batch without even kegging it and then went to town cleaning everything again. Pulled taps apart and everything (I do this before every pitch after the first infections those months ago). Hot sodium perc and starsan again. Sprayed down the ferment fridge about 3 times with starsan. Poured hot sodium perc all over the garage floor. Stanned the garage floor. Yep. Starsanned the garage FLOOR.

Pitched another cube. This one was a bitter, 10 days in im about to cold crash. Same taste, same off smell. Cant tell the difference between this beer and the citra pale, cant taste malt or hops. I fermented the other cube of this bitter from the same batch a couple of weeks ago and I was fine, so I know this is cold side...

Third cube, other half of the citra pale ale, tasted tonight 4 days into fermentation, same taste and smell.

The smell is slightly medicinal and the taste is almost sickly sweet, like slighly rotten fruit or something. Another thing I have noticed is that the beers don't clear properly, they are much more turbid than expected at any given sample point. Doing a bit of research it seems like wild yeast is likely the culprit?


I am in such a foul mood about this it's hard to explain. I feel like throwing the towel in, honestly. Don't know what else to do.


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## GalBrew (8/7/13)

You could ferment a commercial FWK to confirm that it's a cold side issue.


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## labels (8/7/13)

Might be time to ditch the suspect equipment. Some bugs are almost impossible to rid of. One last ditch effort would be to use a strong bleach solution. If you lower the pH as well with star san or phos it is twice as effective.

No need to go into the need to reduce the bleach to zero afterwards because you know all that and the problems it can cause, but it sure is a powerfull bug killer.


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## dent (8/7/13)

Personally I'm not so confident of the sanitising powers of your average liquid sanitation agent. Various microoranisms can avoid contact with the santiser in a variety of ways (scratches, gaps, biofilms, etc) - I'm surprised actually by how often starsan and the like actually *work*. So I use a combination of heat and santisers in my sanitation regime - the standard is to put the fermenter (with the tap open), along with the lid, upside down into an appropriately sized stainless pot, along with a few litres of water. I put this on the gas burner and boil the crap out of it for 15 minutes or so. The steam fills the whole fermenter and it quickly gets above 90 degrees or so - the steam actually starts blasting out of the end of the fermenter tap after a while. This way even any protected greblies will be destroyed with heat. 

Even better when I am fermenting in stainless, then I can just boil the water inside the fermenter itself.

If I were you I'd try fermenting in the cube to start, even if you have to tip out a few litres to make room, it is better than tipping out the whole cube later on. Also I'd bottle condition a few bottles to see if the infection arrives at the kegging stage or not. Consider skipping the dry hopping for now too, in case your hop vendor breaks up his bags where he grinds his malt, or something.


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## Helles (8/7/13)

Try nuking fermenters in Bleach / sod perc / sod met filling to the brim for a week or two 
Worked for me when i had 2 brews in a row go bad a while back 
I do this every couple of brews now to be sure 
Just rinse well after and Star San before brewing


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## Helles (8/7/13)

You will so find that with the sodium metibisulphate it is the fumes the do the sterilizing/sanitising
So try sod met and a kettle of boiling water in fermenters if needed


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## stakka82 (8/7/13)

dent said:


> If I were you I'd try fermenting in the cube to start, even if you have to tip out a few litres to make room, it is better than tipping out the whole cube later on. Also I'd bottle condition a few bottles to see if the infection arrives at the kegging stage or not. Consider skipping the dry hopping for now too, in case your hop vendor breaks up his bags where he grinds his malt, or something.


Yeah I have deduced that it's not the kegs or dispensing equipment, all this is appearing before they reach the keg.

The problem is appearing before dry hopping too. 

I am leaning towards the boiling followed by chlorine.

My usual routine is to rinse fermenters straight after use then fill to the rim with sodium perc until I have to sanitise before use.

Another thing that worries me is that I have had 3 different fermenters display this in a row. All 3 had non infected beers in the previously. Then BAM! all three are done. All filled by different cubes. There is NO common ground between the 3. All had fresh packets of dry yeast pitched, no cakes, no slurry. I even pitched the last 2 inside incase it was the environment in the garage.


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## stakka82 (8/7/13)

I have homebrew bleach here, it's sodium hypochlorite and sodium hydroxide. What dilution do those who have used bleach before recommend? Un-diluted it is 13 g/L sodium hydroxide and 53 g/l hypochlorite.


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## dent (8/7/13)

It sounds a bit to me like you're inadvertently selective breeding the organisms that survive your particular sanitation process. If it is the same bug (likely since the effect is the same) I suspect you never killed them altogether last time and it just took a few brews for them to get their numbers high enough to be perceptible in the beer. 

So changing things up with chlorine or whatever is a plus. But it sounds like those same three stanky fermenters are gonna bite you again after a while unless you do something drastically different.


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## Helles (8/7/13)

Been a while since i have used bleach only but it was a guess at half cup in a 30 lt fermenter 
As i say been a while never really measured it just splashed it in and filled up


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## stakka82 (8/7/13)

dent said:


> It sounds a bit to me like you're inadvertently selective breeding the organisms that survive your particular sanitation process. If it is the same bug (likely since the effect is the same) I suspect you never killed them altogether last time and it just took a few brews for them to get their numbers high enough to be perceptible in the beer.
> 
> So changing things up with chlorine or whatever is a plus. But it sounds like those same three stanky fermenters are gonna bite you again after a while unless you do something drastically different.


That is my thinking also. I have an unused brand new fermenter here but am hesitant to take the easy way out only to have this return in another couple months time in the new fermenter and then I'm back to where I am now without having beat this.

And yeah, it is definitely the same bug. I know what it is before the hydro tube is 20 cms from my face.


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## Florian (8/7/13)

dent said:


> the standard is to put the fermenter (with the tap open), along with the lid, upside down into an appropriately sized stainless pot, along with a few litres of water. I put this on the gas burner and boil the crap out of it for 15 minutes or so. The steam fills the whole fermenter and it quickly gets above 90 degrees or so - the steam actually starts blasting out of the end of the fermenter tap after a while. This way even any protected greblies will be destroyed with heat.


For those who have or had small kids, an easy way to do this is to use your steam steriliser. Some Bunnings fermenters and others fit directly into the steriliser upside down, just let it run a few cycles with the fermenter tap open.
Put you lines and other small bits like valves etc into the steriliser as well.


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## dicko (8/7/13)

Have you checked the cleanliness of the KETTLE TAP??

Cheers


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## jc64 (9/7/13)

Seeming as though you have had a problem again I'll update as well. I took apart my boil kettle ball valve, bugger all on it. I've been pulling them apart when I'm bored though, it's easy, and can't hurt to check. I still just recirculate PBW after brewing and scrub.

After reading everything you have done after getting this infection problem again the only thing I would do is get a fresh fermentor and give it a try. I chill my wort, but is it possible something is going amiss when you are sealing your cube to no-chill? I don't have taps on my fermentors, I use a thief to get hydro samples, then rack using a siphon. This eliminates the tap as a problem for me.


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## bum (9/7/13)

Mightn't a siphon have more places for nasties to hide and be harder to clean than a tap?

Lecterfan recently made a thread about a series of infections he's been having that he seems to be getting on top of. No clear answers there but some posts might be food for thought for you guys (if you haven't seen it already).

[EDIT: I a whole word.]


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

So the more I think about what I'm seeing and the more I read the more I'm sure it's wild yeast:

"Wild yeast can produce a number of problems in your beer.


*Haze or turbidity:* Wild yeast often flocculate and sediment poorly. They may also be less sensitive to fining because they lack a strong negative charge.

*Surface film or pellicle formation:* In the presence of air, some wild yeast can grow rapidly and form a film on the surface of the beer. They can also cause haze.

*Superattenuation:* Wild yeast may be able to ferment sugars that normal cultured yeast cannot (like maltotetraose and dextrins), which can lead to significantly lower terminal gravities, higher alcohol content, and in some cases off flavors.

*Off flavors:* Each yeast produces a different flavor profile because of differences in ester, fusel alcohol, and diketone production and because of other metabolic processes. Thus, any yeast not intended to be in your beer can produce unintended flavors. Non-_Saccharomyces_ yeast may produce radically different flavors in beer, and even very low concentrations of some yeast may have dramatic effects on beer flavor." - More beer

"_Kloeckera_ (Teleomorph _Hanseniaspora_), usually the most common "wild yeast" found in the vineyard. Some species are known "killer yeast" that produce inhibitory levels of ethyl acetate and acetic acid that can kill off sensitive strains of _Saccharomyces cerevisiae_[5]" - Wikipedia

"The occurrence of killer wine yeasts in Comahue Region (Patagonia, Argentina) was studied. Wild wine yeasts were isolated from spontaneously fermenting Merlot and Malbec type musts. Out of 135 isolates analyzed 37% were sensitive to some well characterized killer toxins as K1-K10 and did not show killer activity (sensitive phenotype, S), 21% showed neutral phenotype (N) and 42% demonstrated killer activity (killer phenotype, K). All but two killer strains, identified as Candida pulcherrima and Kluyveromyces marxianus, were Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Additionally, all killer strains were sensitive to some killer reference strains, showing a killer-sensitive phenotype (KS); neither Saccharomyces or non-Saccharomyces wild yeasts were phenotype killer-resistant (KR). The incidence of the killer character varied with respect to fermentation stage and grape variety, *increasing throughout fermentation (13-55% to 36-90%)*." 
- Killer behaviour in wild wine yeasts associated with Merlot and Malbec type musts spontaneously fermented from northwestern Patagonia (Argentina). J Basic Microbiol. 2001;41(2):105-113

Reasons why I think it's wild yeast, as above:

* Incredibly hard to shake
* Strong off flavour/smell
* Huge haze in beer, heaps of suspended matter
* No yeast cake forming
* Ferments are appearing/behaving differently

The last point is something I only noticed last night, neither the 2 currently infected beers nor the last one had a yeast cake sedimented at the bottom of the fermenter. I have never had a beer not have a yeast cake form at the bottom of a fermenter before.

The more I read the more I get this crazy theory (and it is a theory, cause I can't plate or scope to actually find out what's going on):

It's a wild yeast infection, and the wild yeast strain expresses a 'killer' toxin. Yeasts I have used are susceptible to this toxin. This would explain why the ferments are acting differently. No activity until about 24 hours using US-05 - usually I get activity after around 6 hours, 12 absolute maximum. The formation of the krausen looks different to what it usually does - brownish fuzzy patches and more bubbling when it finally does appear. I mean bubbling and not foaming.

The infection is present from the very early stages of ferment. Latest brew tastes fowl 4 days in. If the wild yeast is killing off the pitched yeast, this would explain the above and also why I am not seeing a cake form and no flocculation. I am guessing the wild yeast kills the pitched yeast before it can get a toehold (happening in the first 24 hours, then the wild yeast takes over and the 'ferment' I am seeing is actually the wild yeast doing the bulk of the work.

I did a science degree majoring in immunology and worked as a micro for 3 years (admittedly I have never worked with yeasts) but the above seems plausible and would explain a lot of stuff. I really hope I'm wrong though cause I have 2 fermenters that would be absolute factories right about now and god knows how many spores they are spewing all over my brewing area.

I am going to let one of these fermenters go for another week to check for superattenuation. Damage is done I may as well have another piece of info.

After that it's heat and chlorine and 10 litre biab with 4 buck packs of bry97 until I smash this ******* thing.


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## jc64 (9/7/13)

bum said:


> Mightn't a siphon have more places for nasties to hide and be harder to clean than a tap?
> 
> Lecterfan recently made a thread about a series of infections he's been having that he seems to be getting on top of. No clear answers there but some posts might be food for thought for you guys (if you haven't seen it already).
> 
> [EDIT: I a whole word.]


Not really, my siphon is a pretty simple thing to clean, nowhere for anything to hide.

Best of luck to the OP, seems like he has been super clean but still having no luck. Maybe ferment a batch in a corny keg? Eliminate the plastic fermentor and see if that helps.


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## GalBrew (9/7/13)

Well it this is indeed a wild yeast infection that is only fairly recent, could this be a seasonal thing? Is some weird wild yeast strain hitching a ride on some winter flowering pollen? Maybe you should leave a few plates outside and grow a culture. Ferment some tinned kit beer with some of it and see if the same off flavours that you can detect are present??


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

Fermenting in a keg is not a bad idea, only thing is I can't steam/boil the keg or chlorine it if worst comes to worst. Hesitant to innoculate other brewery gear.

This is not a bad idea (will try it if the heat/chlorine doesn't work) - I am sure this is environmental:




GalBrew said:


> Well it this is indeed a wild yeast infection that is only fairly recent, could this be a seasonal thing? Is some weird wild yeast strain hitching a ride on some winter flowering pollen? Maybe you should leave a few plates outside and grow a culture. Ferment some tinned kit beer with some of it and see if the same off flavours that you can detect are present??


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## WarmBeer (9/7/13)

Can you get a leave-pass to brew a batch in the kitchen or laundry, rather than your usual brew area?

Might eliminate if there wild yeast running rampant out in your shed, for example.


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

WarmBeer said:


> Can you get a leave-pass to brew a batch in the kitchen or laundry, rather than your usual brew area?
> 
> Might eliminate if there wild yeast running rampant out in your shed, for example.


Own the place and have a housemate so no leave pass required.

One of those that have failed have been from BIAB brewed and cooled in kitchen/laundry, the rest from the BM.

Have had BM batches where one cube has been cactus, the other fine (fine one first, then cactus one weeks later). Of all the failed BM cubes, wort has tasted perfectly fine out of the cube and no signs of swelling.


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## WarmBeer (9/7/13)

Sorry, meant to say "ferment", rather than "brew".

Where are you doing your actual fermentation? If it's tasting fine out of the BM, it could be something in the fermentation environment making ingress.


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## angus_grant (9/7/13)

Use your new fermenter and see if the beer comes out OK. Clean the bajeesus out of the new fermenter (along with current fermenters) and run a few batches through it.

If new fermenter keeps producing good beer over a few batches, you have some nasties in your current fermenters which are surviving your current cleaning processes. If so, change/add to your cleaning processes. You could toss them out and spend $40 at Bunnings/Green Shed/etc to get 2 new fermenters but then if your cleaning processes aren't enough to keep that certain bug out, it will happen again eventually.

If new fermenter starts producing crap beer, then it is somewhat likely you have an environmental infection.

And just because it tastes fine out of the BM, doesn't mean the BM isn't the source. It takes a while for an infection to present itself.


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## krausenhaus (9/7/13)

Maybe you could try and plate it? Boiled cooled LDME with gelatin (or agar-agar) in some small containers with lids, serial dilutions of the infected wort lawned out next to a burner, straight US-05 for comparison, then sealed and incubated in the fermenting fridge? Obviously wouldn't be the most sterile procedure in the world but if wild yeast is dominating in the wort you'll know about it..


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

angus_grant said:


> Use your new fermenter and see if the beer comes out OK. Clean the bajeesus out of the new fermenter (along with current fermenters) and run a few batches through it.
> 
> If new fermenter keeps producing good beer over a few batches, you have some nasties in your current fermenters which are surviving your current cleaning processes. If so, change/add to your cleaning processes. You could toss them out and spend $40 at Bunnings/Green Shed/etc to get 2 new fermenters but then if your cleaning processes aren't enough to keep that certain bug out, it will happen again eventually.
> 
> ...


Already did this last time I had this come up. So one of my 'current' fermenters is only 3 months old.

Tastes fine out of the cube, not BM, after several months in the cube, with no swelling. Also as stated earlier have had 50l batches where one cube has fermented fine and the other not.

WB - have considered this but the problem is the house gets down to 10 or 11 at night regularly, even the living room.


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## angus_grant (9/7/13)

Hmm, if you are getting 2 ferments out of the same batch in different cubes and only one is getting infected then I would think you have an infection in either that cube or the fermenter or a persistent environmental infection. Certainly the problem seems to be in the fermentation phase rather than wort production or cube storage.

I would look at your cleaning regime and see if there is something else you can add to the process. How do you store your cubes/fermenters when not in use? Breaking down all your taps, removing and cleaning seals in fermenter and cube lids, cleaning out ferment area (although I think you mentioned doing that).

Try not using your siphon. I just dump my entire cube (hot/cold break, everything) into the fermenter and I find my beer drinkable with no problems present (to my palate anyway). Pair back to as little equipment as possible and see if the infection persists. I clean out the fermenter tap prior to ferment and then star-san before draining into my kegs after ferment finished.


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## kymba (9/7/13)

Have you pulled the seals out of your cube lids?


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

The problem went from being in no fermenters to all 3 simultaneously.

If cube has not swelled and tastes exactly as I expect it to before pitching I'm pretty certain it's not the cube.

"I would look at your cleaning regime and see if there is something else you can add to the process. How do you store your cubes/fermenters when not in use? Breaking down all your taps, removing and cleaning seals in fermenter and cube lids, cleaning out ferment area (although I think you mentioned doing that)."

After the first time I copped this I do all of the above as standard now.

"Have you pulled the seals out of your cube lids?" No, but 2 of the 3 cubes that have ended up cactus in the fermenter were brand new.

I don't use a siphon either.


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## angus_grant (9/7/13)

yeh, I mixed up posters withthe siphon comment. Brand new doesn't mean clean.

So what about a new fermenter and a FWK from a supplier? This would rule out infection in your equipment and restrict it to your fermenter and ferment area. That would help you narrow it down to your environment being the problem. If no problem with the FWK, then you are perhaps then looking at your equipment again. If problem with FWK, then perhaps you have a problem with your ferment area and wild yeast/infection getting in to your fermenter.


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## dicko (9/7/13)

Are you using the same yeast strain each time?
If so try a dried yeast from a new sealed packet.


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## manticle (9/7/13)

stakka82 said:


> The problem went from being in no fermenters to all 3 simultaneously.
> 
> If cube has not swelled and tastes exactly as I expect it to before pitching I'm pretty certain it's not the cube.


Don't be. If a cube had something in it and you are transferring to your fermenters it might explain how all three got it. I know you say you have bought new cubes att various points so not sure if this is the issue.

I know how frustrating this can be (been there myself). Best suggestion I can offer (and how I fixed my issues) was to eliminate transfer altogether. New equipment, no chill into cube and ferment directly in it. Also try buying an FWK and adding dry yeast directly to it. If these come out ok, work forwards from there.

I agree on the likelihood of the wild yeast cause.


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## dicko (9/7/13)

Have a read of this thread, a lot of reading but it does explain the woes of an infection and the final solution.


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/21240-400-liters-lost-to-infection/


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

Ok so I just bleached an affected fermenter and tap and bits all disassembled.

I used household bleach, 5% hypochlorite at 1:30 dilution. 

Then I rinsed the crap out of it, put all the bits in my 10lt hlt including transfer hose to cubes and boiled for 30 mins.

While this was happening i put the fermenter and lid in the 50L bm (still enough room to put the lid on) and boiled for 30 mins also.

That thing is almost like an autclave with the lid on, if nothing else it's a great disinfection device.

I have then quarantined all bleached/boiled gear in my bedroom far from my garage to dry (can you tell I'm single?).

I am going to do a 10 L test biab on the weekend, and ferment inside.

If this works I will then ferment outside. If that works I will then brew on BM. If that works I will then ferment in the ferm fridge again.

And if any one of those steps fail I'm bleaching and boiling my gear again until this is gone. This is war.


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## kymba (9/7/13)

I only asked about the lids as that was where my 2 infections have come from. after lifting the o-ring out there was a tiny 1mm square bloom of mold. the cubes didn't swell, but upon opening the cubes it looked like motor oil and smelt a bit funny like weird pepper. When I poured it into the fermenter it was different from normal wort, like hydraulic oil


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## kymba (9/7/13)

ugh, sorry about the formatting. posting from the phone


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## stakka82 (9/7/13)

Fair enough mate, as I said some cubes were brand new, also no off smell or taste or swelling. Also one batch was not cubed, just chlled in the kettle (19l biab) in the laundry sink and chucked in.

Appreciate the input/experience though.


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## kymba (9/7/13)

recon you got something in the air. might be love

maybe see what happens if you make a few little starters from ldme and leave them out? see off they kick off from shit in the air?


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## Markbeer (12/7/13)

dont be scared of bleach. it rinses well and kills wild yeast, somthing starsan does not do that well. starsan has been developed with bacteria in mind.

you may need to switch to bleach every brew if you have a tree or plant that has wild yeast present on the property.


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## Mardoo (12/7/13)

kymba said:


> maybe see what happens if you make a few little starters from ldme and leave them out? see off they kick off from shit in the air?


Now that is an excellent idea! I'm filing that one away.


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## MastersBrewery (21/7/13)

Having just read through this I must say the OP has had a rough road and kudos to him for his continued efforts. I am thinking as others above that this could be environmental.
If you have any sort of Air conditioning system in your house it could well be the cause. I remember reading a blog of a brew store and that was where it was eventually traced. What he did from that point was to fully enclose ALL wort transfers, any container that was to have wort transferred to it was first flooded with co2 then starsan type sanitizer. It apparently worked well. Obviously you would still need to oxygenate your wort for fermentation, but a fully enclosed process is possible. I read this some time ago so unfortunately I can't remember where as I think a link to his method may be of help


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