# Tried everything! Infection again!



## Nick667 (10/12/19)

For the last year or so and probably at times before that I have had an infection that I just cant get rid of.
It shows as a mold in small areas around the rim of the fermenter after fermentation.
I use a plastic FV and do all grain BIAB in a stainless pot and siphon into FV with an auto siphon. Everything is spotlessly clean and sanitized with sodium perc and usually the pink sanitizer especially around the rim/lid area. I used to use Starsan but we have trouble getting it here lately and occasionally pour boiling water through everything.
I have replaced everything plastic and even stopped dry hopping just to try and eliminate this greebly. I had a couple of brews go through with no problem and thought I had it nailed but then out of the blue, again!!!! 
There is no infection anywhere in the fermentation chamber/fridge and I use mold killer spray before closing it up. The problem has to be coming from inside and before I close it up. I must have brewed something like 80 AG beers and kits for years way back before that.
I will try to post a pic and would really appreciate any ideas.
.......... For some reason I cant post pic.....


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## Brads Biabs (10/12/19)

Do you pull apart your taps as they are one common cause.


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## Truman42 (10/12/19)

Why dont you buy a cheap plastic Bunnings 20 litre water drum and ferment in that next time and see what happens? if you dont get an infection then its obviously the fermenter and I would just throw it and get another one.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/12/19)

Was reading about bio film and their removal recently, this is not the article but pretty much the same method of removal.
https://www.mbaa.com/publications/tq/tqPastIssues/1992/Abstracts/tq92ab28.htm


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## Barge (10/12/19)

I had a persistent infection that I think was coming from where I brewed. Outside under the patio roof. There was some black mould on the roof that I assume was the culprit


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## scomet (11/12/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Was reading about bio film and their removal recently,


I got an infection just reading that! Good article weal btw

Nick667, they used to burn breweries to the ground to get rid of persistent infections, the little bastards are hiding somewhere!


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## wide eyed and legless (11/12/19)

scomet said:


> I got an infection just reading that! Good article weal btw
> 
> Nick667, they used to burn breweries to the ground to get rid of persistent infections, the little bastards are hiding somewhere!


I don't think he needs to go to that extreme, a lot of people seem to rely to much on the acid wash to sanitise equipment but a good alkaline clean before the acid should eliminate most troublesome bacteria and mould/fungal infections.


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## splitice (11/12/19)

Don't let this get you too down, it's really bad luck. I know people who have barely washed their fermenters for years and never had an issue.

I'd hit the fermenter with a few different sanitizers. Including warm/hot water (check fermenter material limits) Make sure to get into any threads and let it soak in each.


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## Grmblz (11/12/19)

Ok, flame suit on "check" skin thickener applied "check" 
Forgot to rinse a long neck once and had black mouldy blobs in the bottom, out of interest filled it with perc solution (warm) and left it overnight, zip no result, filled with starsan solution and left overnight, same result, filled it with bleach solution and after one hour blobs were floating (presumed dead) rinsed bottle and later filled it with no issues. I know all the reasons for not using bleach (never let it anywhere near stainless btw) but the fact is chlorine kills bugs (it's why it's in your municipal water supply and used in hospitals) I'm not suggesting you use it as your regular cleaner/sanitiser but in an instance like this I'd be inclined to nuke absolutely everything with it, use a garden sprayer and do the walls, ceiling, fridge, underpants, anything and everything, then rinse it all off with clean water (if like me you are on tank water then boil it first and then treat it with starsan) rinse, repeat, and rinse again. I agree with weal about people relying on acid too much. As for your fermenters fill the bathtub/suitable container with bleach solution and fully immerse them, if that's not possible buy new ones, they cost the same as a brew. fwiw I have HDPE fermenters (buckets) that are 20yrs old and still used regularly, any sign of trouble and it's "off to the bath tub" from memory I've had about 3 "down the drain" (due to infection not bad recipe formulation) in the last ten yrs. I await the howls of indignation. 
 lol


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## malt and barley blues (12/12/19)

Yes, anything that is in real bad shape bleach is a sure fire way to kill whatever may be lurking there.
All I use is hot alkaline wash but if given some grotty old bottles I will hit them with the old bleach.


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## Hpal (12/12/19)

I've got a plastic fermenter thats got to be 20 years old, it's still in use and i've never had an infection. I use boiling water on everything and clean taps out each time. For stubborn stuff I use bleach sometime eg cubes.


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## peterlonz (13/12/19)

I had my fair share of repeat & unexplained infections 50 years ago. Never actually discovered the reason but a shift to filtered water, use of strong bleach & change of venue fixed the problem & not once an infection in subsequent years. I remain meticulous about thorough sanitizing the FV with bleach which I run through the tap. I always rinse well with our domestic hot water which is probably around 70 Deg C. I only use yeast which quick starts when pitched at about 22 C, but can't claim that this is a factor. Once started I try to maintain a ferment temp of 18 - 19. I use grain & 1.7 Kg extract kits. Consider making changes where possible & see if that helps, a new FV would be a low cost way to start again. Good Luck!


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## Tim Smith (23/12/19)

What does everyone clean their fermentation chambers with? I use lo suds cleaner and then spray with Starsan type sanitizer.

I do see at times dirty lines in the corners and find it difficult to fully remove soils or mould whatever it is. I have thought about using a silicone sealant around the edging with a nice rounded bead to help with cleaning.

I don't have an issues with infection but I don't want an infection in the future.

So from reading this post and it's comments I am thinking of cleaning with a chlorine solution. What ratio? And then sealing with that sealant Feldon has posted up a few times, Kason Food Grade Silicone.

Any other recommendations.

Cheers

Tim


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## Coalminer (24/12/19)

This:
http://www.brewman.com.au/web/showproduct.asp?prodid=915


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## Tim Smith (24/12/19)

Coalminer said:


> This:
> http://www.brewman.com.au/web/showproduct.asp?prodid=915



Very limited info on that page, where are they located?

And how to use? It shows quantities but not application process.

If this is the same as PBW I have some of this.

Cheers
Tim


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## yankinoz (24/12/19)

Plastic fermenter 10 years old, never had an infection. Wash with soft cloth and a little sodium percarbonate, then soak along with tap in percarb, turning the fermenter to reach all surfaces. Sanitize w Defender.


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## Tony M (24/12/19)

A couple of years ago I had an ongoing infection in my conical fermenter. After pulling everything apart for the umpteenth time I found a hairline crack in the 1" coupling between the gate valve and fermenter bottom. Replacing this solved the problem; so it doesn't take much to harbour bacteria.


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## Coalminer (24/12/19)

Brewman Brewery Wash:
Online or pickup in Newcastle region

Use 1 Teaspoon per 2.5 Litres of warm water

Soak for a couple of hrs or overnight
Rinse with cold water
Better than PBW (my opinion) brilliant for SS - no scrubbing or rubbing needed


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## Donz (24/12/19)

I've had 4 brews gone bad,
I only used plastic fermenters and binned the one suspect.
if you scratch it, throw it out. (or try and clean it and HOPE)
They are not worth saving, for a brew to go to the garden or to NOT.
just get a new one or get your kegs filled from a micro brewery.


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## mossyrocks (25/12/19)

Brown bottle betadine. 1 cap full in a spray bottle. Plus a cap full in the kegs when cleaning plus run through your taps and dip tube of the kegs.


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## Paddy Melon (25/12/19)

Hi Tim,
I do all the cleaning and sanitizing of my ferment fridge as required then I finish by using a spray bottle of 50% water and 50 % white vinegar. This seems to prevent any mould growth. Also don't use silicon it can harbour mould, just check shower recesses where it gets used. 
M


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## dibbz (26/12/19)

Brutally honest, my fridges are moldy AF and it doesn't matter with proper process.

I'm curious of your process between the end of boil and the wort ending up in the FV and yeast going in? How does it chill?

My experience is when the wort goes into the FV via a chiller or even with cubes in summer it still has to chill to say 18c to pitch, it's sucking in air when it's cooling even from room temp as the air in the FV cools.

On the brew buckets I have a blow off about 2mm into some sanitizer in a jar when it cools so the air it sucks in as it cools has to run past that, and not enough for it to suck it into the fv, if you use an airlock the S shaped one is better for 2 way venting too.

Additionally regarding the rim/lid area, how is there wort up there for anything to grow on? Do you shake for aeration?


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## Paddy Melon (26/12/19)

My system for cooling down the wort is to leave the wort 2 litres shy and when it goes into the FV add two litres of Ice which I make by using filtered water. I use an aquarium pump fitted with an air filter while the ice is melting. So far I haven't had any problems.


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## GregTheBrewer (26/12/19)

Hi Guys and Merry Christmas to all. The article that Wide Eyed referred to is very interesting, and it explains why percarbonate alone may not be enough: you need a detergent/surfactant to upset the little buggers so they are more susceptible to the sanitising agent. This is why PBW or similar contains sodium metasilicate: the combination of this with the sodium percarbonate produces a great alkaline wash and oxidising agent that is often enough to do the job by itself. Having said that, and while it does get the equipment super clean, I still use Starsan before brewing!


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## MHB (26/12/19)

One thing I note in the OP is that he was using an Acid sanitiser as part of the process, isn't any more and is now having problems.
Beer Stone (Calcium Oxalate) will build up and it provides a great refuge for bugs, it takes an acid cleaner to remove beer stone, all the hot caustic, percarbonate, bleach... in the world wont shift it. Acid sanitiser and Iodophor will (Iodine and phosphoric acid).
There is a decent possibility that that's what's missing from his cleaning regime.

That said persistent infections can be a bugger, sometimes the best you can do is to no-chill a couple of beers, if the cubes don't swell at least you know the problem is down stream from there. sometimes it takes a complete replacement of all your plastic (though bathtub soaking in bleach as above should be pretty effective), sometimes you can track down what is called the seat of the infection, be I a transfer hose, even seen plastic fermenter lids that weren't well made and were porous. I remember one customer who couldn't brew in March, there was a big tree next door that when in flower was shedding masses of wild yeast, the air itself was a seat of infection, so clean room (as is in filtered air) or skip brewing in March...

Good luck, I know just how frustrating it can be.
Mark


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## peterlonz (27/12/19)

I can't claim personal knowledge of this, but a mate told be that at the brewery he worked at, they regularly changed the sanitizing & cleaning agents.
OK so I presume that was in anticipation of immunity developing in whatever bugs might be around.
I can say that the first 6 months of my brewing history was one failure after another. Never did find out why, but as soon as we moved, infections ceased.


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## mongey (27/12/19)

dibbz said:


> Brutally honest, my fridges are moldy AF and it doesn't matter with proper process.
> 
> I'm curious of your process between the end of boil and the wort ending up in the FV and yeast going in? How does it chill?
> 
> ...


I’m the same. My brew fridge is filthy and I never have an issue. But I don’t use the tap for bottling cause it does worry me. As it’s the one place open to bugs. I siphon from the top into bottling bucket instead.


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## Grmblz (27/12/19)

A very interesting podcast interview with the chemist from 5 star brewing chemicals (the guy that invented starsan and PBW) answers a whole lot questions and debunks a lot of myths, eg you don't actually have to clean organic matter off stuff for starsan to sanitise it, it's best practice but not essential, best to download it as the actual interview starts 55 min's into the show.


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## Grmblz (27/12/19)

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/dwnldarchive03-19-06.mp3


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## wide eyed and legless (27/12/19)

Didn't bother watching it again but pretty sure that this one contradicts.
https://beersmith.com/blog/2019/02/...tion-with-rick-theiner-beersmith-podcast-187/
Also I have noticed that StarSan has been removed by the powers that be on sanitising bulk milk trucks just recently.


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## MHB (27/12/19)

I suspect that might have more to do with the truly horrendous detergent they use in star san!
Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid is a good argument for being a greenie. Governments are finally waking up to the fact that there are alternatives that do less harm... rant off. Personally wouldn't touch it, given so many other better choices.
Mark


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## Grmblz (28/12/19)

Thanks for the comments, have watched the vid on eco logic and it seems their one step is a weaker version of PBW (may need scrubbing to remove krausen) my understanding is that stella san also uses dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. looking at the data sheets it doesn't seem too bad (to my untrained eye) so I guess the question is what actually works (without scrubbing etc) that doesn't pose a danger to the environment (me and my septic tank/garden) Yes I know I'm covering two subjects cleaning and sanitising I'm just trying to minimise my water consumption and maybe get up to speed with the 21st century without compromising my brews. Another thing that occurs to me is they are all trying to supply a one size fits all product whereas in reality the suitability of the products depends on your process, equipment, and your water composition, as a tank water user I don't need to worry about mineral content (there aint none) so chemicals added to counter water hardness are pretty much irrelevant in my situation. Is iodophor a better solution? sure it stains stuff but so what, and as one chemist comments "if it's red it's dead" but then do I really want it in my septic, I suspect not. There's just so much conflicting information out there and new products but are they really any better than the old tried and true or just another way of extracting coin under the guise of "new and improved, and environmentally friendly" Any thoughts on the current state of play?


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## brisie (28/12/19)

Is there a tap screwed to the fermenter? When I used to brew in plastic buckets I'd buy them without the bottom hole drilled out thinking about how much bacteria could hide in the thread.


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## MHB (28/12/19)

If you want a septic system to work properly, you can rule out all the Halogens (fluorine, chlorine. bromine, iodine..) and anything made from them, so bleach is out to.
Caustic, widely used in commercially is good, if hazardous (I've got a scar 30 odd year old that's there for life). Carbonate and peroxide or the combined form Sodium Percarbonate are a pretty safe and environmentally friendly option.
Caustic and Carbonate will help waste water systems by saponifying fats whish helps them biodegrade.
Personally its mostly Sodium Percarbonate for general cleaning, Proxitane for heavy sterilising, 70% ethanol in water as a spray spot steriliser (just Metho and water).
I don't expect instant cleaning and never mind spending some time scrubbing if its needed.
Admittedly if its yeast culturing equipment, **** the fish, I'm going all out which means soaking yeast propagators, lines, bungs, air stones... in Iodophor after cleaning, but not putting that stuff down the drains if your on a septic system.
Mark


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## JDW81 (29/12/19)

I've been brewing for about 15 years and have never had an infection (across 4-5 different locations around victoria and NSW).

My process initially was the pink sanitiser, but has been the same for 10 years and hasn't skipped a beat.

As soon as any piece of equipment is used, it is cleaned with either sodium percarbonate/dishwashing detergent (depending on it's use/degree of soiling) and a green scouring pad or soft cloth for the plastics. Prior to coming in contact with beer or wort everything is washed with a soft cloth and dishwashing detergent and then rinsed very clean (I don't use much water despite good rinsing). I mostly use cold water.

My sanitisation routine only commences once everything is squeaky clean. A surgeon once told me (I work in a hospital) that there's no point trying to sanitise your hands with sanitising spray if they're dirty. If you've got shit on your hands, even if you spray them you'll still have shit on there, so wash them first. Can't sanitise unless it's clean.

I use the old keg king no rinse sanitiser. Was given a large bottle for free to trial ages ago, and it's still going strong. Everything gets a good spray, sits for a about 15 minutes then rinse with boiling water. Kegs are sanitised with steam from a steam cleaner after a hit with no rinse sanitiser.

Everything gets rinsed on the grass, and nothing goes down the drain.

The best surgical prep agent is povidone iodine with 70% isopropyl alcohol, as it kills both sporing and non-sporing organisms, so it stands to reason that idophor is a good option (may consider it down the track if starsan is not great for the environment).

This is my method, and may have a step or two more than necessary in there but still haven't had an infection so I think it is worth the extra time.

JD


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## wide eyed and legless (29/12/19)

I have noticed my grass has died where I clean the kettle after a brew, I throw the hop dregs etc onto the lawn this is where the grass is no more. I can only put this down to the hops, the little of left over wort goes onto the bamboo as a bit of feed for the microbes,bugs and worms.
May have to try using old hops as a weed killer.
JDW81 What do they use to sanitise the colonoscopy cameras.?


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## JDW81 (29/12/19)

Not sure, but it’s a pretty involved process which is logged so it can be tracked if there’s an issue. 

Other surgical equipment is sterilised by a mix of steam, dry heat, chemical and gamma radiation (I think). Learnt it for my exams them promptly forgot as it wasn’t relevant to my job.


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