# Bronzed brews recipe discussion.



## MitchD (14/8/17)

So I've read the book and now have the yeast so its time to step back into our colonial past and recreate some these classics, however playing around in beersmith produces some problems particularly with FG and colour.

For example my first planned recipe is "Tooths white horse ale" from page 287. 
I subbed the MO for veloria as its what i have and the "castle 6 row pilsner" will be replaced with whatever pils malt i have on hand as i cant get the 6 row locally.

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.003 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.7 %
Bitterness: 30.1 IBUs
Est Color: 8.2 EBC

3.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
2.60 kg VELORIA Schooner(Voyager Craft Malt) (8.0 EBC) Grain 2 62.8 %
0.47 kg Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 3 11.4 %
0.07 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78.8 EBC) Grain 4 1.7 %
1.00 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 5 24.2 %
24.56 g Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 70.0 min Hop 6 19.7 IBUs
24.56 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 10.5 IBUs
1.0 pkg Melbourne 1 (White Labs #059) Yeast 8 -

Now FG has me stumped, the amount of sugar called for in the recipe will always drag FG down BS estimation of 1.003. However the anticipated FG is a healthy 1.012? Am i missing something with this?

Interested to hear from others as the get brewing with this book.


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## fletcher (14/8/17)

i've found beersmith has never given me proper indications of FG. try lowering the mash temp and you'll see what I mean. anything less than 64 or 63c and it doesn't drop the FG. in fact, it moves it up which I've always found to be incorrect.


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## captain crumpet (14/8/17)

Missing 6 row, and estimated fg is calculated off attenuation of yeast. It doesn't really take everything into account like mash temp affecting fermiability of the wort.


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## MitchD (14/8/17)

captain crumpet said:


> Missing 6 row, and estimated fg is calculated off attenuation of yeast. It doesn't really take everything into account like mash temp affecting fermiability of the wort.


Its not missing i subbed it for another pils malt as i cant get 6 row. Beersmith does actually calculate FG based on mash temp, mashability of grain and yeast attenuation.



fletcher said:


> i've found beersmith has never given me proper indications of FG. try lowering the mash temp and you'll see what I mean. anything less than 64 or 63c and it doesn't drop the FG. in fact, it moves it up which I've always found to be incorrect.


Beersmith is very accurate if your recipe and mash temperature are accurate, lowering the mash temp does change FG however i have set mash temp to the 66c in the recipe.


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## kaiserben (14/8/17)

This recipe is on my to do list. So I'll be interested to see how it goes for you.


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## kaiserben (20/8/17)

Still no answer on your question. I've got this recipe slotted in for a brew day in a few weeks and am wondering the same.


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## MitchD (27/8/17)

Spun my yeast up this weekend so I'll be brewing within the fortnight.


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## MitchD (2/9/17)

Brew day done. Came in at 1.044 couple of points low because I either added too much extra water for boil off of my 90 minute boil off was incorrect, either way it'll make beer.

Colour is very pale, as expected. Flavour is very sweet, also as expected with 1kg of sugar.










Waiting until it's ~18c to pitch but the yeast is ready to go.


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## Mardoo (3/9/17)

FWIW the Veloria Schooner is a freakishly awesome malt. Easily one of my favourites. I'd keep it on hand all the time if I could.


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## MitchD (3/9/17)

Mardoo said:


> FWIW the Veloria Schooner is a freakishly awesome malt. Easily one of my favourites. I'd keep it on hand all the time if I could.


Agreed, the maltster is a club member and all suppliers local are stocking it at the moment. Just wait until you get some of their Munich malt.


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## Mardoo (3/9/17)

Nice. I just contacted Voyager last week and they said they've worked out a Victorian distributor, so I'm looking forward to easier access to the malts.


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## technobabble66 (3/9/17)

Mardoo said:


> FWIW the Veloria Schooner is a freakishly awesome malt. Easily one of my favourites. I'd keep it on hand all the time if I could.



Why so good?
Super clean or very malty, etc?


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## Mardoo (3/9/17)

Very clean, light toasty malt scents, with a sweet malt background flavour. It stands very well on its own, or disappears into a supporting role if you have flavours you want to bring to the foreground.


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## kaiserben (4/9/17)

I brewed this recipe yesterday. 

Came in slightly under at 1.045 (but I also ended up with more volume than I'd planned for, so that probably explains it). 

I felt dirty adding so much sugar (it's that Reinheitsgebot guilt).


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## kaiserben (4/9/17)

I'm also having to ferment this without temp control, as my fridge has another batch in it. 

So I guess I'll be able to provide feedback on whether to expect big krausen (fingers crossed I don't have a big clean up).


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## MitchD (4/9/17)

Mine has chewed 10 points off in 24 hours with very little krausen. Temp is set at 18c but sofar it has happily sat around the 17.5c mark.
Lots of diacetyl but the hops are shining through.


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## kaiserben (5/9/17)

So it's abut 36 hours after pitching (a healthy amount of) yeast. No temp control. Ambient temp is about 21C. I've just had SWMBO take a look and there's a krausen ring, but it went nowhere near needing to blow off. 

I won't bother checking gravity at this stage, but it's that FG I'm most interested in.


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## MitchD (7/9/17)

Down to 1.012 @20c and showing no signs of slowing down


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## kaiserben (8/9/17)

I just plugged in the malts & sugar into Brewers Friend for comparison and noted that the predicted FG was 1.008. 

I asked the author of Bronzed Brews and he said his 2 attempts at this recipe (using WLP017) ended up at 1.013 and 1.010. 

It's probably worth noting that WLP017 has a lower attenuation than WLP059. 67-73% vs 74-78% respectively.


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## MitchD (8/9/17)

What mash temperature did you set in brewers friend? I believe the author references brewers friend in the book so maybe that explains some of the differences in expected fg.

059 and 017 are both platinum/vault strains which makes it harder to replicate the recipes directly. I'll be holding onto most of the cake for later because of this.


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## kaiserben (8/9/17)

The author used Pro Mash. 

I actually forgot to set a temp in Brewers Friend. Doing it again just now and setting it to 66C saw the predicted FG at 1.007.


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## Bribie G (10/9/17)

I'm doing a 1913 Toohey's Standard Pale Ale this afternoon, with WLP059 . I cleaned up the 40L Crown Urn then when I realised the grain bill is only 2.65 kilos, I patted it on the head, put it away and brought out its little brother, the 20L.


I'll adjust volume with boiling water as I cube it off. 

One thing that I'm interested in finding out is what efficiency I'll end up with. Using Brewmate, I set eff. to 74% which seems to work just fine on my equipment but using all grain. With over a kilo of da sugaz this time It's gotta really skew efficiency as I'd guess that sugar is.. well.. 100% but I have no idea how to adjust things in Brewmate. 

I'll just follow Korev's published recipe and check eff. at the end of the boil (that's easy to do, just dial back the eff. spinbox till it agrees with the OG from my refractometer).


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## TheWiggman (10/9/17)

I recently got the Tooth's White Horse Ale on tap. It's been about 2 weeks in the keg and has me wondering a bit. It has a slightly sour edge to it that forms a lot of the flavour, which reminds me of kit brews. I've had this in lagers before and when I moved to adding sugar late in the ferment it yielded excellent results. It might need more time in the keg but shouldn't really. Other than that it's got a Carlton-esque catty bite about it when I champ after a sip, and shows there's a good unique beer hiding in there somewhere. Alternatively, maybe this yeast simply imparts that flavour. I've got the book now and another WLP059 so am looking forward to another recipe. Toohey's Standard sounds appealing.
Ed: Just got off the photo to my grandfather, who I'll be seeing in a few weeks. I mentioned I'll have some brews for him and brought up the White Horse ale. He said he was a Toohey's drinker back when he was a young fella, and Tooth's was a beer you had to have a taste for. Maybe this is an accurate rendition? It's certainly easy to knock back, if I was a linesman back in the '50s and this was served over the bar after a day in the sun I'm sure I'd knock back my pints before the bar closed without batting an eyelid.


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## Bribie G (11/9/17)

Hit the gravities etc and will pitch this morning.

The eye opener for me is that I produced a full brew on exactly half sized equipment, illustrating that sugar use wasn't just penny pinching on the ingredients, but quite necessary to produce the brew lengths required for a beer swilling and growing population at a time when brewing plant was scarce, expensive and mostly had to be shipped from the other side of the planet on steamships.


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## Edd Mather 6 (12/9/17)

Known to the trade as Wort extenders (Sugars & syrup adjuncts)


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## captain crumpet (12/9/17)

4th brew atm with wlp059. Seems 1-2c in mash temp makes hige difference in attenuation. 

60 min at 70c OG 1.055 fg 1.020
60 min at 71c OG 1.053 fg 1.024
60 min at 67c OG 1.055 fg 1.014

Using 80% castle 2row pale 10% castle munich wheat and 10% sucrose.

This one on now 70% pale 10%wheat 20% sucrose. OG 1.060 48 hours into ferment is sitting at 1.032. 

The FG brews over the 1.020 mark are quite... meaty? Too wierd of a malty flavour and does get quite sweet after a few. 

Have also been using little amounts od POR for flame out and dry hop. Ive been pretty happy with how that has turned out.

Next I'm doing an IPA with a fair whack of sugar and using galaxy por melba and ekg. Anyone tried a hop forward brew with this yeast?


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## captain crumpet (12/9/17)

Just learnt something last night. My results are pointless because my FG is measured with a newly acquired refractometer. I only checked its accuracy to a hydro sample at OG. 

Just tested a sample where i noted 1.024 from refractometer . Hydro says 1.010.

Shit.


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## warra48 (12/9/17)

captain crumpet said:


> Just learnt something last night. My results are pointless because my FG is measured with a newly acquired refractometer. I only checked its accuracy to a hydro sample at OG.
> 
> Just tested a sample where i noted 1.024 from refractometer . Hydro says 1.010.
> 
> Shit.



You need to use an adjustment chart to use a refractometer after fermentation.


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## technobabble66 (12/9/17)

So wtf is the real FG of the last one, where the refractor reading was 1.014??

And what attenuation do the 3 brews indicate? ... (Opens up spreadsheet...)


EDIT: after some spreadsheeting, seems to be in the vicinity of 80% attenuation


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## MitchD (12/9/17)

I hit 1.008 from a 68c mash temperature without even trying to push it with temperature. Expected fg was 1.012


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## MitchD (12/9/17)

TheWiggman said:


> It has a slightly sour edge to it that forms a lot of the flavour. Other than that it's got a Carlton-esque catty bite about it when I champ after a sip, and shows there's a good unique beer hiding in there somewhere. Alternatively, maybe this yeast simply imparts that flavour. I've got the book now and another WLP059 so am looking forward to another recipe.




I got a big whiff of macro lager last night while kegging, not in a bad way for as bad as a macro is they are the kings of consistency. The sharp catty taste I attribute to the cluster hops and higher sulfate in the beer. 

Yeast wise I'm really impressed, for a beer with 25% cane sugar it is surprisingly malty and easy to drink. I'll be reusing the cake for many many future generations.


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## Bribie G (12/9/17)

MitchD, re FG, that's what I'm interested in with my current Toohey's Standard Pale Ale - at 1.047 if it actually goes down to say 1.005 - which is more than possible given the huge amount of sugar - then it's going to be plus 5% ABV and then some. I bought a hydrometer the other week just to check out my FGs - normally I just let them take care of themselves as I don't bottle.


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## MitchD (12/9/17)

Bribie G said:


> MitchD, re FG, that's what I'm interested in with my current Toohey's Standard Pale Ale - at 1.047 if it actually goes down to say 1.005 - which is more than possible given the huge amount of sugar - then it's going to be plus 5% ABV and then some. I bought a hydrometer the other week just to check out my FGs - normally I just let them take care of themselves as I don't bottle.



Fg realise just a number and regardless of how low it gets it'll still be drinkable. My interest is really in how accurate the recipes are as it was well published in the book historical og/fg readings but they seem incompatible to what we really know will be the fg. 

I'll be making (probably) an all malt ale next time I use 059 for comparison. I'm expecting malt>hops after what I have tasted so far


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## Bribie G (12/9/17)

The recipes were rendered into "modern" form using Promash. Now my experience with another program BrewMate suggests that FGs predicted by software are fairly spot on using all grain and the most common yeasts, but for this particular sugar-loving yeast, and the use of large amounts of sugars, might give different real world FGs. 

That's why I bought a hydrometer to check out of interest. For sure the beers will be drinkable but it will be interesting to check the actual alcoholic content (from gravity drop over the fermentation). It's a common trap with people making their first Aldi cider.. a quite innocuous OG that ferments out to zero can produce a headbanger. 

A good way of checking alcoholic content is for several testers to don 1930s clothing and then re-enact a six o'clock swill session of the day and after eight schooners, test if they are all crawling around moaning either "Did I ever tell you how much I love you Josh?" or even worse: "Why did Princess Di have to die???".


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## Edd Mather 6 (12/9/17)

Bribie G said:


> The recipes were rendered into "modern" form using Promash. Now my experience with another program BrewMate suggests that FGs predicted by software are fairly spot on using all grain and the most common yeasts, but for this particular sugar-loving yeast, and the use of large amounts of sugars, might give different real world FGs.
> 
> That's why I bought a hydrometer to check out of interest. For sure the beers will be drinkable but it will be interesting to check the actual alcoholic content (from gravity drop over the fermentation). It's a common trap with people making their first Aldi cider.. a quite innocuous OG that ferments out to zero can produce a headbanger.
> 
> A good way of checking alcoholic content is for several testers to don 1930s clothing and then re-enact a six o'clock swill session of the day and after eight schooners, test if they are all crawling around moaning either "Did I ever tell you how much I love you Josh?" or even worse: "Why did Princess Di have to die???".


Never used either programme ! , always used , Pen/Pencil , paper & a calculator !! 
The thirties thing sounds like fun though [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]


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## MitchD (12/9/17)

Bribie G said:


> A good way of checking alcoholic content is for several testers to don 1930s clothing and then re-enact a six o'clock swill session of the day and after eight schooners, test if they are all crawling around moaning either "Did I ever tell you how much I love you Josh?" or even worse: "Why did Princess Di have to die???".




I'll be testing mine on my brew club.


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## Bribie G (12/9/17)

OK so back on topic now


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## kaiserben (16/9/17)

Bottled today and gravity was as BeerSmith predicted at 1.003.


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## kaiserben (16/9/17)

And also, I tasted the sample and was really impressed. I find it hard to describe beers; it definitely has an "Aussie" taste to it, but it's not shit like pretty much every macro beer out there these days. 

Looking forward to trying this once it's carbed and conditioned. I reckon it'll be good fresh.


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## kaiserben (23/9/17)

Just tasting a bottle now and it's reminiscent of Coopers Pale Ale (but better and cleaner). There's a distinctive sweet aroma that I like (maybe a slight pear aroma and flavour). Just enough from the hops to balance it out. It's an easy drinker, but with enough going on to keep it interesting. 

And it clears up very quickly with the yeast really dropping and sticking to the bottom of the bottle.

EDIT: Will definitely brew this one again.


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## Bribie G (23/9/17)

I'm getting that sweet aroma on my second brew that I'm kegging tomorrow. I'd describe it as like an old time musk stick, or Hubba Bubba bubble gum?


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## MitchD (23/9/17)

Had a couple of schooners today in the sunshine. Definite sweet aroma of candy also grainy malt, low hop flavour but good bitterness. Much better when allowed to warm up, strong biscuit malt with a little fruity hop flavour.

Ed. Still can't work out how to upload pics.


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## kaiserben (25/9/17)

Bribie G said:


> I'm getting that sweet aroma on my second brew that I'm kegging tomorrow. I'd describe it as like an old time musk stick, or Hubba Bubba bubble gum?



I reckon Juicy Fruit gum.



MitchD said:


> Much better when allowed to warm up



Agreed.

And here's a photo of mine.


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## Korev (10/11/17)

Look out for my new book: *6 O’CLOCK Brews - Home Brewing More Old Australian Beers.*
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/prsymons
Cheers
Peter


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## MitchD (10/11/17)

Korev said:


> Look out for my new book: *6 O’CLOCK Brews - Home Brewing More Old Australian Beers.*
> http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/prsymons
> Cheers
> Peter


When is it expected to be released? I'll definitely be getting it


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## Korev (10/11/17)

MitchD said:


> When is it expected to be released? I'll definitely be getting it



Published today

Peter


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## MitchD (10/11/17)

Korev said:


> Published today
> 
> Peter


Excellent. It's on the Christmas list.


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## Jez (11/11/17)

MitchD said:


> Excellent. It's on the Christmas list.



Free shipping until 13 November 2017 with coupon code SHIPIT2017 makes its $27.50 AUD delivered.


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## nosco (28/11/17)

Korev said:


> Look out for my new book: *6 O’CLOCK Brews - Home Brewing More Old Australian Beers.*
> http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/prsymons
> Cheers
> Peter


Im a bit behind. I just posted about this in the other thread [emoji2]


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## stuartf (26/1/18)

Sadly drinking the last bottle of my Macclesfield xxxk ale with the melbourne ale yeast. Fitting that I'm drinking it on Australia day though


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