# Best brewday ever, dissappointing result



## wbosher (25/4/13)

I've just completed my best brew day to date, ran like clockwork with absolutely no problems at all. I loved every minute of it. That is until I did the pre-boil gravity test...very low. Beersmith estimated 1.035, I got 1.028. The grains came crushed from the LHBS and looked a little underdone, but time was of the essence, so I went ahead with it anyway.

I went ahead with the boil hoping for a miracle, never got it. Once again everything went without a hitch, met my estimated volume within a few hundred mls. OG also very low at 1.033, estimated 1.044.

Looks like I'm going to have a very hoppy and bitter mild (IBU 33), rather than a pale ale.  I don't mind the low alc, in fact I'm quite happy about that, just think it may be very, very bitter.

Disappointing result to a very good brewday.


----------



## Midnight Brew (25/4/13)

Midstrength IPA. Would it hurt to throw some malt extract in or is it too late?


----------



## Yob (25/4/13)

33 isnt overly bitter, it'll turn out fine... And a quaffer


----------



## lukiferj (25/4/13)

You'll be surprised what some dry hopping will do to an overly bitter beer. I recently had an IPA that worked out to be 73 IBU (no chill adjusted). Going into the keg I thought I may have to dump it as it was so bitter. 20 gms each of Cascade and Centennial in the keg and it's turned out to be one of my best beers so far. My APA mids I have been making have been between 25-30 IBUs and that is perfect to my tastes. 33 IBUs should be fine.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

I usually aim for an IBU in the mid 50s when I make an IPA, but it's balanced out with a much higher gravity. The reason I thought 33 might be quite high is because of the very low OG, was amining for a mid strength pale ale this time.

It seems then that it might be ok, thanks guys.


----------



## QldKev (25/4/13)

I'm with midnight brew, just throw some DME in it as it hits the fermenter. Use to fav beer application to work out exactly how much to add.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

Bit late now to add DME. I don't have any and I can't get to the shop today, I think it's closed for ANZAC day anyway.

I'll just see how it goes. Starting to think it might be ok.


----------



## bum (25/4/13)

wbosher said:


> Bit late now to add DME.


Why?


----------



## pk.sax (25/4/13)

It'll be right. Might even be a cracker.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

bum said:


> Why?


Because I don't have any, and can't get any today due to the shop being shut for ANZAC day.


----------



## bullsneck (25/4/13)

I think Bum was referring to the DME addition, not that you can't source any.

I'm sure you could add it high krausen with good results.


----------



## manticle (25/4/13)

You could add it whenever you like - just calculate how much, boil it up in a smidge of water for a few minutes and Bob becomes part of your family.

Or if it tastes OK, leave it.


----------



## JDW81 (25/4/13)

wbosher said:


> I've just completed my best brew day to date, ran like clockwork with absolutely no problems at all. I loved every minute of it. That is until I did the pre-boil gravity test...very low. Beersmith estimated 1.035, I got 1.028.


What was your estimated mash efficiency before the brew? What mash (not overall) efficiency have you got in the past? What was your actual mash efficiency today? Not trying to tell you how to suck eggs, but could it be a case of expecting a higher yield than your gear and process can deliver? I only ask as I've made this mistake in the past. Fixed it by aiming a bit lower and adding a bit more base malt, never been a problem since.

Just a though.

JD


----------



## Nick JD (25/4/13)

Crappy milling with un-crushed grains reduces your efficiency by exactly the percentage of grains uncrushed.


----------



## Screwtop (25/4/13)

Maybe the absolutely bloody obvious, but! Your recipe, amount of grist, volumes etc. Maybe something is out of whack!

Screwy


----------



## mckenry (25/4/13)

how are you measuring your numbers? Hydrometer OK? 1000 in water?
Temp of wort you measured SG at? Compensated for that?


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

Nick - I think it was definately that fact that the grains weren't milled properly, but I just had to do it as it was the only oppertunity I had to put on a brew for another couple of weeks, and I'm getting low on beer. Just took a gamble, and lost.

Qwlkev, manticle, bullsneck and bum - sorry, having never added DME to an AG brew before, I thought it had to be done early on in the piece, never realised that I could do it whenever. Still unlikely I will be able to get any for the next few days.

jdw - I have consistantly got around the 70 - 75% mark for my last few brews, so generally aim for about 70%. This time was just a touch under 50%. Like I said, I think it was the grains.

screwtop - the amount of grains, volumes etc were spot on. Done this recipe a few times before, only change was the hops.

mckenry - hydrometer is two points out, I always allow for this.

Anyway, the more I read on the subject, the more I'm getting the impression that it's not too much to worry about. Might be a little bitterer (if that's even a word) that I had planned, maybe a little thin, but still ok.

Thanks for all the replies guys.


----------



## manticle (25/4/13)

wbosher said:


> Qwlkev, manticle, bullsneck and bum - sorry, having never added DME to an AG brew before, I thought it had to be done early on in the piece, never realised that I could do it whenever. Still unlikely I will be able to get any for the next few days.


No different to adding any other kind of sugar later during fermentation or even afterwards. Think of bottle or keg priming or someone adding candy sugar at the later stages for a big belgian.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

I remember reading somewhere, probably here, that if the IBU is close to the OG, it will be fairly balanced. If that's the case, then this should be ok.

OG: 1.033
IBU: 33
IBU/SG: 0.922

Will probably be closer to an low alc IPA rather than a medium strength pale ale, but if it works out ok I might even try to deliberately do this again...add less grain that is, not waste money on uncrushed grain.


----------



## treefiddy (25/4/13)

If the LHBS is closed you could get BE or malt extract from Big W.

Edit: Sorry, I just noticed you're in NZ. You may know it as Big Double Ewe.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

> You may know it as Big Double Ewe


Surprisingly, in the 10 or so months I've been here, this is only the 2nd sheep joke! You Aussies are slacking off. :lol:


----------



## Spiesy (25/4/13)

I'm just a little puzzled as to how it was your "best brew day" when efficiency and subsequent pre-boil and post-boil gravities are all out?

Out of interest, the 70% efficiency you were targeting for - you've hit this with a similar grain bill (IPA) and mash schedule before? 

I BIAB and recently noticed diminishing returns in efficiency as the grain bill gets bigger... My recent Black IPA turned out as a very nice Black Ale (thankfully I caught the low efficiency at pre-boil and changed some of the hop quantities to balance it out).


----------



## pk.sax (25/4/13)

I think he meant to say he had the time to take the sheep behind the house between doughing in and mash out, kinda pita if you gotta keep looking after the temp drop, spills, gas running out, stuck sparge or whatever.

There, better?


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

practicalfool said:


> I think he meant to say he had the time to take the sheep behind the house between doughing in and mash out, kinda pita if you gotta keep looking after the temp drop, spills, gas running out, stuck sparge or whatever.
> There, better?


Much better 

spiesy - by best brew day, I meant that everything went smoothly. No problems with temp, spillage, gas, kids, drunkenness, bag breaking etc...went beautifully and really enjoyed it. This is precisely why I was so disappointed.

And yes, I consistently get 70% with the same grain bill.

I'm not so much asking advice on why this happened, I think I know why, just venting and seek reassurance that it's not a complete disaster from those who may have been here before.


----------



## Nick JD (25/4/13)

Recently, we had a brew day for the Gold Coast club. We were brewing a beer from a set bunch of ingredients for a comp (the grain came pre-milled) and we got the same kind of numbers as you have.

Woefully under expected OG. Heaps of uncracked grains on inspection of the spent grain.

It happens.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

How did it turn out Nick?


----------



## AndrewQLD (25/4/13)

You did everything right, measured your pre boil and found the gravity lacking, that was when it all went pear shaped. Nothing after that pre boil gravity reading was going to get better unless you made corrections.
Add more extract, dextrose or sugar to increase your pre boil gravity OR reduce the bittering hop additions to give you a more balanced bu/gu ratio.

Lesson learnt and for your first brew not really all that bad.


----------



## Adr_0 (25/4/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> Lesson learnt and for your first brew not really all that bad.


Wasn't his first brew by the sounds of it; I think what you meant to say was _"Lesson learnt and for a *kiwi* not really all that bad."_


----------



## AndrewQLD (25/4/13)

Adr_0 said:


> Wasn't his first brew by the sounds of it; I think what you meant to say was _"Lesson learnt and for a *kiwi* not really all that bad."_


Nope, Kiwis are awesome, great country and people that grow great hops and brew great beer, but your right _best brew day_, not the first.


----------



## Adr_0 (25/4/13)

On a serious note, good to know or have a pretty good idea where your efficiency was lost, and so you can test it next time you brew. I will certainly be having a peek at the grist before I mash next time, but I'm sure there's always a small % that will be uncracked. Sounds like you had a good 20-25% of your grains uncracked though, which is pretty disappointing.


----------



## wbosher (25/4/13)

Kiwi jokes aside (yeah, I asked for it ), thanks for all the replies guys. I will be having a chat to the shop about their mill, but I suspect someone will probably beat me to it.


----------



## Nick JD (25/4/13)

wbosher said:


> How did it turn out Nick?


Not sure if it's fermented yet. Got given a long boil and had the OG upped that way - but wasn't a comp playa - so they sent out some properly milled grain.

Free beer for the club!


----------



## Spiesy (26/4/13)

The quality of buying pre-milled grain is one of the many reasons why I'm in the middle of setting up my own mill.


----------



## QldKev (26/4/13)

Spiesy said:


> The quality of buying pre-milled grain is one of the many reasons why I'm in the middle of setting up my own mill.



Have you mentioned the mill adjustment issue to the LHBS who is currently milling the grain? Maybe with time the adjustment has moved and they haven't realised and would happily re-adjust it.


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

I did think about getting a mill myself, but as I only brew about once every three or four weeks, I didn't think it was really worth it the expense.

The LHBS had just modified their mill, new motor and/or rollers, so that could have something to do with it. I have to say that I have never had a bad crush from them in the past, so hopefully it's just a one off. Having said that, I might look into getting a cheap Corona style mill, just in case this happens again.


----------



## sponge (26/4/13)

wbosher said:


> OG: 1.033
> IBU: 33
> IBU/SG: 0.922


IBU/SG = 1?


----------



## jc64 (26/4/13)

sponge said:


> IBU/SG = 1?


Remember, he is in NZ, things don't always equal there what they do elsewhere.


----------



## sponge (26/4/13)

Pi = 3.1417 in NZ


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

:lol:

It's not IBU divided by SG, it's a ratio in Beersmith...probably should have made that clear. I'm not sure exactly how it's calculated but a ratio of .9 would indicate that it's quite bitter, but not overly so. There is a chart somewhere on the interwebs but I can seem to find it at the moment, it gives an idea of what ratio is appropriate for any particular style of beer. Obviously each individual perceives bitterness differently, but it's a guideline.

There are a few threads on AHB about it, here is one


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

sponge said:


> Pi = 3.1417 in NZ


Pi = Steak and mushroom please.


----------



## jc64 (26/4/13)

No one seems to have mentioned you could have extended the boil, taken a bit less volume and increased your SG a few points. If you knew you were out preboil and had no dme on hand that would have been my course of action. My refractometer is so handy to have on brewday for this reason.

Also this beer will probably turn out to one of your favourites and you will try to remake it but won't be able to replicate it!


----------



## bum (26/4/13)

wbosher said:


> :lol:
> 
> It's not IBU divided by SG, it's a ratio in Beersmith


A ratio is either the quotient of two numbers (here you propose the quotient is 1) or a representation of such a divison process (usually as A:B where : is synonymous with /).

But, hey, feel free to not only "teach" people about its use but also correct those who question you.


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

I've already said I don't know how it's calculated, simply that I understand it's use according to what I've read.

I failed high school maths many, many years ago.


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

jc64 - unfortinately, I didn't know the preboil was out until much later, when it had cooled enough to take a hydrometer reading.


----------



## jc64 (26/4/13)

wbosher said:


> jc64 - unfortinately, I didn't know the preboil was out until much later, when it had cooled enough to take a hydrometer reading.


bugger, that's the best thing about having a refractometer, you know straight away something is up the shit. So to speak.

If you cool the preboil down quick in a freezer it still gives you a chance to add DME or extend your boil, ideas for your next batch.


----------



## pcmfisher (26/4/13)

wbosher said:


> I remember reading somewhere, probably here, that if the IBU is close to the OG, it will be fairly balanced. If that's the case, then this should be ok.


Yeah, I've read that as well.
I reckon its the shittiest rule of thumb ever.


----------



## bum (26/4/13)

I usually only read people throwing that ratio around for AIPAs and feel like it is useful in that context.


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

I have to admit, I've never really paid much attention to it, but I guess it could be a rough target to aim for when designing a new recipe. I usually use the sliders in Beersmith for any partlicular style, I guess more experienced brewers would just have a feel for it.

I found this, it's similar to the chart I mentioned earlier.

*Alt-.70
Kolsch- .53
Barley Wine- .94
Ordinary bitter- 1.28
Special Bitter- .73
Extra Special Bitter- .73
Pale Ale- .91
IPA- 1.10
Bock- .34
Helles- .36
Doppel- .33
Eisbock- .26
Mild Brown- .64
English Brown- .56
American Brown- .95
Old Ale- .58
Bohemian Pils- .75-.85
German Pils- .68-.80
Dortmunder Export- .40-.60
Munich Helles- .38-.48
Brown porter- .55-.72
Robust Porter- .61-.93
Scottish Ale .3-.5
Octoberfest- .42-.50
Wheat- .14-.34
Classic Stout- .8-1.20
Foreign Stout- .9
Sweet Stout- .3-.5
Imperial Stout- .9*


----------



## JDW81 (26/4/13)

wbosher said:


> jc64 - unfortinately, I didn't know the preboil was out until much later, when it had cooled enough to take a hydrometer reading.


Why can't you take a hydro reading after your mash? Just use the beersmith tool to adjust your gravity for temp?


----------



## mondestrunken (26/4/13)

I had a similar situation of low efficiency (it ended up around 1035 while I was expecting/hoping for 1045-1050. Mine was a bitzer brew using up old grain I had lying around. I added 450g dextrose (also lying around) and 150g treacle (been in the pantry for 5 years or so) after fermentation was basically done. I added the sugar and it went apeshit. I'm bottling it tonight.

Good luck.

Edit: This was in reply to the first page, rather than the OG/BU ratio discussion. I didn't realise there was three pages of this post.


----------



## wbosher (26/4/13)

JDW81 said:


> Why can't you take a hydro reading after your mash? Just use the beersmith tool to adjust your gravity for temp?


I probably could, just a little nervous putting my glass hydromoter in 78C+, not sure if it can handle that. If it can, I'd love to know. 

I put the sample in the fridge to cool, but I forgot about it until after I'd taken the OG sample from the fermenter. That's my inexperience shining through I guess, but I've never had this problem before so got a little complacent probably. Just expected everything to be ok, even though I noticed before even mashing that the grains looked a little suspect. Won't make that mistake again.


----------



## JDW81 (26/4/13)

wbosher said:


> I probably could, just a little nervous putting my glass hydromoter in 78C+, not sure if it can handle that. If it can, I'd love to know.


I do this all the time and the only broken hydrometer I've had is when I've dropped it. Others may have a different experience but it works for me. I usually just drop it in the kettle after the sparge.


----------



## wbosher (27/4/13)

Ok, thanks for that. I might give it a go next time. Do you pre-warm it first, or just dump it in?


----------



## Nick JD (27/4/13)

I used to warm the hydro under the hot tap first before popping it in the kettle. Then I spent $29 on a refractometer and now I look like a scientist doing SERIOUS BEER STUFF.


----------



## Yob (27/4/13)

$28? Unlike you to pay more than you need to Nick.. Pretty sure I got mine for $18

Great bits of kit, much better than messing about with temp conversions etc... More blingerer too


----------



## wbosher (27/4/13)

Refractometers are about $60 -70 here. The wife would have a fit after all the money I've already speant on brewing. :lol:

Might just have to persevere with the hydrometer for a little while longer...the time wil come though.


----------



## paulmclaren11 (27/4/13)

Where do you get refractometres for $28 or less?

I have seen them for $40 plus here in Perth..


----------



## bum (27/4/13)

There's tonnes of cheapies on the electronic bay.


----------



## Nick JD (27/4/13)

Yob said:


> $28? Unlike you to pay more than you need to Nick..


I save my money to spend on better things than beer making stuff. Also, you can make beer with $30 worth of equipment, I heard once.


----------



## paulmclaren11 (27/4/13)

Thanks Bum will check it out.


----------



## wbosher (27/4/13)

It always comes down to shipping, bum. Lots of free shipping within the US or Aus, bugger all free to NZ.

Now that I know that a glass hydrometer can withstand the 78ish temp, I'm quite happy with that...except that the bloody numbers _always _point away from me after a spin. :lol:


----------



## manticle (27/4/13)

Trick it with a scarecrow dressed in your favourite hat.

Works every time.


----------



## Adr_0 (27/4/13)

Nick JD said:


> I save my money to spend on better things than beer making stuff. Also, you can make beer with $30 worth of equipment, I heard once.


Pfft, haven't you read the reams of evidence floating through teh interwebs? You make heaps *better* beer with a 3V HERMS than with a $30 pot. It's been, like, science-proved and stuff.


----------



## krausenhaus (27/4/13)

don't


----------



## Nick JD (27/4/13)

do


----------



## pk.sax (28/4/13)

Err, I hope you don't put 80C wort in your plastic hydro tube. Done that, made a couple of tubes rather useless. Just take a 200ml ish sample and quickly chill it down first.


----------



## wbosher (28/4/13)

No, got a glass one. Was just worrying about it shattering and ruining an entire batch of beer. Looks like she'll be right.


----------



## jezza79 (28/4/13)

i recently had the same problem.
it turned out that there was more to beersmith than i had thought.
once i had personalised my equipment and mash setting to match my own gear it came out spot on the OG.


----------

