# Trub from BIAB. Filter?



## Canuckdownunder (10/2/14)

Hey Guys!
So I'm 100% in love with my new urn (cheers pommiebloke btw). The variety and depth of my brews has gone to the next level and the results are night and day. 

However, I'm having a bit of an issue with the amount that I'm losing to trub and break. 15 minutes before the boil I drop a whirl floc and post-boil i chuck in my IC for a half hour/45 minutes, then I whirlpool and let it settle for another 15. The first 15-18 litres are clear gorgeous wort but after that I'm sucking trub and crap into the fermenter. I don't seem to be able to get the whirlpool cone and I was wondering if there are any tips and tricks?

I'm pouring through the urn spout and through a metal screen to catch as much hop matter as I can. any ideas bros?

Canuck


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## carniebrew (10/2/14)

Stop transferring as soon as it's no longer clear gorgeous wort?

It could have something to do with the height of your spout. What's stopping you from closing the tap as soon as you hit dirt?


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## Aces High (10/2/14)

Step 1, don't worry about it. If you're cold chilling it will all drop to the bottom and you'll get beautifully clear beer.

Ive actually moved my whirl flock addition back to flame out and I have noticed that Im getting a much better trub cone. I did it by accident once when I forgot to add the whirlflock and threw it in just after flame out and got the best result ever so ive stuck with it.


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## lukiferj (10/2/14)

Are you using brewing software? Took me a little while to get all my losses sorted out. I kept adding more strike water until I could fill a cube of clear wort. Trial and error but can hit all my targets. The other thing I do is fill a 2 litre bottle of wort/trub and put in the fridge until im ready to pitch. Clear wort can be decanted and be used for starters or boiling late addition hop additions and get an extra litre or so in the fermenter.


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## timmi9191 (10/2/14)

Whirl floc 15 mins before boil? I assume you mean 15 minutes before the end of the boil.

IC into wort post boil.. I'd be putting the ic in for at least 20 minutes of the boil to kill off any nasties..

How is the internal pick up set up in your urn. I have an 90 elbow on the pick up of my keggle so it only draws from outer edge, which results in trub remaining in centre. Another thing to look at maybe the shape of the urn floor. Is it flat, concave or convex?


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## joshF (10/2/14)

what i usually do as the wort is getting upwards from about 70 degrees, is to use a mesh anti-splatter guard that you use to cover a frying pan. I scoop that through the wort for about 5 mins and it picks up any husks etc.

Since i started doing it, there was a huge difference to the amount of trub leftover in the bottom of the urn and what trub is leftover, it seems to stick together alot better.

I was also thinking about pumping the wort from the bottom tap back up and through a 250 micron hop sock (since the particles are alot finer than the splatter guard.

Different strokes for different folks and all that but that's what works for me. For a few minutes extra, you can get another 1.5L of nice wort into the fermenter which is nice


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## Canuckdownunder (10/2/14)

Awesome replies this is why I love this site!


carniebrew said:


> Stop transferring as soon as it's no longer clear gorgeous wort?
> 
> It could have something to do with the height of your spout. What's stopping you from closing the tap as soon as you hit dirt?


Ya i'd love to do that but the issue is that my fermenter is only 18 litres full. 



lukiferj said:


> Are you using brewing software? Took me a little while to get all my losses sorted out. I kept adding more strike water until I could fill a cube of clear wort. Trial and error but can hit all my targets. The other thing I do is fill a 2 litre bottle of wort/trub and put in the fridge until im ready to pitch. Clear wort can be decanted and be used for starters or boiling late addition hop additions and get an extra litre or so in the fermenter.


I think this probably cuts to the core of my problem. I have to tweak my recipes to account for losses definitely. Also interesting idea to take the wort/trub mix and decant it in the fridge until I hit pitching temp! 



timmi9191 said:


> Whirl floc 15 mins before boil? I assume you mean 15 minutes before the end of the boil.
> 
> IC into wort post boil.. I'd be putting the ic in for at least 20 minutes of the boil to kill off any nasties..
> 
> How is the internal pick up set up in your urn. I have an 90 elbow on the pick up of my keggle so it only draws from outer edge, which results in trub remaining in centre. Another thing to look at maybe the shape of the urn floor. Is it flat, concave or convex?


Ya sorry end of boil/IC in 15 minutes before my bad haha hope nobody took that as what to do :unsure: but an elbow could definitely help as well since it seems to be drawing from the middle and that's what starts the trub moving. It's a flat bottom with an exposed element Birko 40L

Cheers!
Canuck


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## carniebrew (10/2/14)

18 litres doesn't sound that bad to me. But if you want more beer, make bigger batches, and leave more behind in the kettle.


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## pommiebloke (10/2/14)

Glad to hear it's going well. Get an elbow from Craftbrewer and once you get near the trub cone SLOW DOWN!

Should make all the difference.


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## pommiebloke (10/2/14)

This is what I use. http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4309


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## pommiebloke (10/2/14)

And if a bit of trub gets in it's no big deal. It's actually good nutrition for the yeast according to some. It will settle out in time.


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## slash22000 (10/2/14)

Unless you're maxing out the complete volume of the urn already, why not just make more wort to account for loss? Also, use a hop bag, if you're not already.


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## jacknohe (10/2/14)

Like may others, I used to worry about trub in my fermenter. After a number of quality brews with it in there, I don't worry anymore and just let it go in. I also use a hop sock, have done for years. This ensures the trub is just the crud (proteins?) from the boil. No adverse effects. 

No issues with hop utilisation due to the sock. Just give the hop sock a squeeze at the end to get all the wort out.


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## MHB (10/2/14)

[SIZE=medium]What is Trub?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Well a good definition would be; it’s anything in the bottom of a tank that you don’t want to transfer – which leaves a lot of room for talking about what you don’t want to transfer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Trub in a kettle will be mainly break material and hop debris; there are two types of break material, Hot Break that we really do want to leave in the kettle, and Cold Break that anyone not using really crappy malt or lots of adjunct need get too worried about.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Where the confusion comes about is that one is (unless there is lots of it) actually good for the brew, cold break is among other things an important source of nutrient for yeast. Hot break on the other hand is way better left in the kettle with the hop debris.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Problem is they are both just condensed protein and look very similar, what I suspect Canuckdownunder is seeing is in part cold break that forms when the wort is chilled, cold break is really light and fluffy so it settles very slowly. The problem being how do you tell where the cold break leaves off and the hot break starts.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Well if you are seeing any hop, you are also pulling hot break, carniebrew is right you could stop and give the break more time to settle but we really want to minimise the time wort is in contact with the hot break.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Something you can try -try whirlpooling after you finish the boil, transfer the wort hot when it stops moving and then chill it in another vessel (could be your fermenter); you could also try no chilling until you get a better feel for the amount of wort you need to leave behind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]That way you should be able to see the hot break know where you should be stopping without the cold break getting in the way.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Urns are a great way to start brewing, unfortunately most of them don’t really make good whirlpool tanks, there are often too many things sticking up into the wort that cause turbulence and stop a really neat cone forming, it’s a trade off but you just have to do the best you can and be prepared to leave a litre or two of wort behind – to my mind losing 2 litres of wort and making 20 litres of better beer, beats the hell out of making 22 litres of second best beer.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now for the part that will get me into trouble – the bad news is you can’t filter out hot break – well not at a reasonable price or without being incredibly patient. Hot break is a jelly like condensed protein and it will just coat and block anything fine enough to stop it going through. Unfortunately a strainer fine enough to catch the bits of hops is probably letting most of the hot break through and really is about as useful as a leaky condom.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]In big commercial brewing they have purpose built whirlpool tanks that get most of the wort and catch all the trub, or they used to filter the hot wort through a bed of hop flowers (read up on ‘Hop Back”) but it also used to take them over 2 hours to drain the kettle. So if you like the idea of adding 2 hours to your brew day it might be possible to filter out break. In most of the craft breweries I have been in they just leave enough wort in the kettle to make sure they aren’t getting hot break transferred with the wort – part of the cost of doing business, or in this case the cost of making good beer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Scrubbies, Bazookas, bits of spatter guards and things constructed out of termi-mesh all I believe miss the point. If you try to get every drop out of the kettle, you will get hot break into your fermenter and will reduce the quality of your beer[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I guess it’s up to all of us as brewers to make a lot of choices; I am always inclined to make the better beer over more beer decision and would suggest to a new brewer - try to make the best beer you can – rather than the most beer you can.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Mark[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]For those who think hot break is no problem, a bit of light reading and you are wrong by the way, it is bad for the beer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]M[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]View attachment 02 - The function of wort boiling1.pdf
View attachment 06 - The process of wort boiling 2.pdf
View attachment 01_-_Beer_Stabilisation_part_11.pdf
[/SIZE]


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## Canuckdownunder (10/2/14)

MHB that was awesome! Well written and I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say thanks for the info. I think after a bit of research and all of the help and advice from the AHB guys I've devised a procedure to minimise my trub woes and I'll give it a try next brew-day:

- try adding the whirl floc closer to flame-out (Aces High)
- look into buying a 90 degree elbow for my urn (Pommiebloke/Pimmi91)
- Tweak my recipes to account for trub losses (Lukiferj/slash22000)
- Whirlpool and allow for time to settle after chilling (carniebrew)
- pour through a mesh screen
- and finally just accept that doing BIAB in an urn is going to have a bit of trub issues and to tweak accordingly, and to leave the hot break in the kettle than risk issues with the beer (MHB)

Cheers!
Canuck


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## Edak (10/2/14)

Hey Mark, cheers for the long answer.

I read those documents and basically I am still confused about the hot break, I see that it has some impact but the extent of that impact is still unknown. 

Also, it eludes me as to how a pick up tube actually helps. It will pick up more trub (because it settles to the bottom) would it not? 

Lastly, as you are the go-to guy for braumeister questions, how would you install a tube in a braumeister type set up that has a flat bottom and coils in the way?


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## MHB (10/2/14)

[SIZE=medium]Canuckdownunder[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]All good – usually when I suggest people leave a bit of wort behind I get called a robbing retailer bastard whose one aim is to make you spend just a little bit more on ingredients. Saying you can’t readily filter out hot break and well its duck the napalm time.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So at the risk of upsetting the works – if you do everything right, make allowance for some loss, fit a pickup tube (an elbow might be a start but to get the most out of it, it needs to keep going a bit longer), using your kettle fining properly (I find Brew Bright the best) you won’t need to filter through a mesh screen.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I would be very wary of running chilled wort through mesh increasing the surface area and its just one more place where exposure to air could pick up a bug and undo all the progress.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Do everything right and fit a clean piece of hose to your tap and go straight to the bottom of the fermenter.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Edak[/SIZE]
_[SIZE=medium]I read those documents and basically I am still confused about the hot break, I see that it has some impact but the extent of that impact is still unknown.[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=medium]Remember that the stuff I posted is very basic; most books on brewing don’t spend a hell of a lot of time on why Hot Break is bad. A bit like a driver training manual might say “drive in the left lane” and leave it at that, there are alternatives but well you might not want to test them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]In “The function of wort boiling” download. The second bullet point bullet point reasons for boiling a wort is to reduce coagulable nitrogen - that is break material – its removal is one of the top 4 reasons we boil a wort in the first place.[/SIZE]

_[SIZE=medium]Also, it eludes me as to how a pick up tube actually helps. It will pick up more trub (because it settles to the bottom) would it not? [/SIZE]_
[SIZE=medium]It’s the direction of flow. A good pickup tube will be at a tangent to the edge, a tap going straight through will draw what is in front of it which is in effect what is in the middle and that’s where all the crud is. If you have achieved anything like a decent whirlpool there should be no (or very little) trub near the edge, and that is where a pickup tube draws from.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]NB going too fast can make a complete mess of even the best shaped trub cone – easy does it.[/SIZE]

_[SIZE=medium]Lastly, as you are the go-to guy for braumeister questions, how would you install a tube in a braumeister type set up that has a flat bottom and coils in the way?[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=medium]There is a thread on this – the search function is giving me the shits, see if you can find it there are posts in there from me (MHB) and schooey. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Mark[/SIZE]


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## Phoney (10/2/14)

MHB said:


> _I read those documents and basically I am still confused about the hot break, I see that it has some impact but the extent of that impact is still unknown._
> Remember that the stuff I posted is very basic; most books on brewing don’t spend a hell of a lot of time on why Hot Break is bad. A bit like a driver training manual might say “drive in the left lane” and leave it at that, there are alternatives but well you might not want to test them.
> In “The function of wort boiling” download. The second bullet point bullet point reasons for boiling a wort is to reduce coagulable nitrogen - that is break material – its removal is one of the top 4 reasons we boil a wort in the first place.


 A year or so ago someone on here did a test. Sorry I cannot remember who it was or in which thread, but they fermented 10L of the top of the kettle in one FV, and the bottom 10L including all of the break material in another FV. The conclusion from the side by side taste tests was that the trub beer tasted like mud compared with the top beer. 

The effect may not be so noticable on a full 23L batch, but again it comes down to what you say about making the best beer you can imo.


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## MHB (10/2/14)

IFIRC it was BribyG, and that was only cold break - not hot break, generally (in moderation) cold break isn't a real issue too much can cause problems, but there are lots of things on my list of "improvements" to my brewing process that I would put before worrying about cold break.
Cheers Mark


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## tavas (10/2/14)

phoneyhuh said:


> A year or so ago someone on here did a test. Sorry I cannot remember who it was or in which thread, but they fermented 10L of the top of the kettle in one FV, and the bottom 10L including all of the break material in another FV. The conclusion from the side by side taste tests was that the trub beer tasted like mud compared with the top beer.
> 
> The effect may not be so noticable on a full 23L batch, but again it comes down to what you say about making the best beer you can imo.


I think the test you are referring to is one BribieG did on cold break. I thought the results were the cold break material tasted better, but the non break beer was clearer. Bribie may be able to clarify.


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## Phoney (10/2/14)

Nah it wasnt Bribie, and it was definitely hot break. Could have been a couple of years ago now. ThirstyBoy?


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## Canuckdownunder (10/2/14)

MHB said:


> [SIZE=medium]Do everything right and fit a clean piece of hose to your tap and go straight to the bottom of the fermenter.[/SIZE]


Hey MHB!
I thought that running the wort through the mesh screen would help me to collect errant hop material and also aerate the wort resulting in a better fermentation. If I run a tube straight to the bottom of the fermenter how will the wort get aerated? 

Canuck


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/2/14)

Another good reason to try no chill, you can minimise hot side aeration with a tube into the bottom of the cube. Then when you are ready to ferment and its cold, pour from a height to splash it around!


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## joshF (11/2/14)

If i no chill, i syphon straight out of the cube and attach one of these badboys onto the end of the syphon hose

http://www.brewmart.com.au/brewmart-shop/catalogue/?detail&ItemID=3978&SZIDX=0&CCODE=10735&QOH=8&CATID=371&CLN=2

If you have the cube a decent height above the fermenter, you can get a really good spray. I still attach a plastic mash paddle to my drill and splash the shit out of it aftewards just for the hell of it but have never had an issue with stalled ferments etc.


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## stm (11/2/14)

Canuck - so how much wort are you actually losing to trub? About 3L is not unreasonable for an urn. (You are not going to get a great whirlpool with an exposed element.)


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## Bribie G (11/2/14)

My two cold break beers produced virtually identical brews.

If you collect the trub in sanitised jars and leave to settle overnight you can reclaim a fair amount of wort. I'd normally be looking at tipping out two litres of trub, by adjusting the recipe to give you an extra litre or two it's not going to cost much for an extra half kilo of grain etc.

Braumeister seems to produce very little break due to its filtering cycle during the mash, BIAB produces more hot break because more turbid material goes into the boil.

At the end of the day it's swings / roundabouts, no concerns about my finished beers. BrewBright from MHB is a brilliant kettle floccer as well, I add right at the end of the boil and allow 20 mins for settling.


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## pommiebloke (11/2/14)

+1 for Brewbrite


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## Pickaxe (11/2/14)

I don't use an urn but two put stovetop method and have found that scraping hot break off with a spoon, like you would for a clear stock or broth, has reduced my trub dramatically. I scrape the surface scum just before I hit boiling point. I lose a little wort, but my efficiency is better, and my trub is dramatically reduced. I find it worth the time. 

pickaxe

Edit: spelling


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## GuyQLD (12/2/14)

I don't have the reference handy at the moment but you do need to realize that hot break and cold break are two very, very different beasts and have different affects on your finished beer. The reason we want to get rid of hot break is because of the proteins Mark mentioned, its also the reason I tend to always do 90 min boils. 

Cold break in a home environment is a bit of a more difficult argument to make. It contains a number of staling elements which are unlikely to have an effect on beer drunk fresh. It also contains some amino acids that can aid in fermentation, well substitute for poor oxygenation at least. Not that I'm condoning poorly oxygenated wort. Its far better to remove the cold break and oxygenate correctly. At least that's why the big boys do it. As always your mileage may vary.

You won't cop any napalm from me Mark, you're spot on.


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