# Dry Versus Ferment Hopping



## speedie (14/11/10)

There was some discussion at our Thursday night brew meeting on this coming

Weekends brew session and over the coarse of it we our brew team made 400 liters of ale 

The objective was to utilize exclusively nelson sauvin hop both as a bittering and flavor component in the brew 



There were five different malts used in a direct fired three step mash program to achieve a balance of malt and color 

We had on a previous batch mash hopped but felt that the hop was wasted in its use so that was cut from this session



There where two more additions of hop which where added 15 then 45 minutes into boil which lasted for one hour

The last addition was to go into primary fermentation which had also been done in the earlier brew



We had a quick think tank and it was decide that the brew would be split into two 220 liter vessels and ferment hop one let both run there coarse in primary then cold settle and rack to clean vessels at which stage the second brew would be dry hopped



Hopefully this will shed some light on which path to follow for future brewing 

My thinking was that there would be a reasonable amount of hop aroma flushed out with the Co2 during ferment and also a large amount of hop ends up on the walls above the brew after completion which really doesnt contribute to the goal



Now having said that what are the general consensuses on the dry hopping versus ferment hopping way of doing things do you feel that it is too grassy a taste? Dry hopped



Brew details 

Malts wheat, rye, black, dark crystal & JW pilsner

400 liters @ 1055 

Color copper

Rehydrated US05 

Poor extract of 65% (mill problems and runoff)

Nelson sauvin 2009 crop 11.5 AA%

All comments appreciated 

Cheers speedie


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## manticle (14/11/10)

I've always been of the understanding that ferment will drive off volatiles so I've never actually tried ferment hopping. Dry hopping on the other hand will, in my experience lend grassiness IF overdone, IF done for too long and/or IF done with the wrong hop. Combinations of those will increase grassiness.

If done in the right amount for the right time with appropriate hops then I note no problems in my own beer.

Many good commercial beers are dry hopped with no resulting grassiness so grassiness is not a guaranteed result from dry hopping.


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## haysie (14/11/10)

NS hops are lets say heavy in the front of the palate and rich in aroma. I would be looking at no more than .75gm to the ltr for dry hopping. Considering you have already late hopped, back it off to .5 of a gm per ltr. Nelson is a lot like Galaxy when used right its delicous, when overdone drinkers are looking for the spitoon. Good luck with it.


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## mxd (14/11/10)

I think the theory is if you put the hops in at the start of fermenting the CO2 will drive some off the aroma off, if you add hops when cold chilling then you should maximize the hop aroma


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## jonocarroll (14/11/10)

I don't think I've ever heard of someone deliberately 'ferment hopping' as opposed to dry hopping for the reasons stated - CO2 will drive off the aromatics. As a frequent dry hopper (/keg hopper/glass hopper/etc) I can honestly say that dry hopping doesn't *necessarly* have to lead to grassiness, especially if done correctly for the type of hop you are using. If you use a high %AA hop then you will likely get some grassiness (high %AA typically has high humulone levels) but something a little milder can lead to wonderful aromas. It all depends of course on the goal - if you're making a proper APA, then Cascade grassiness is almost always to be expected and looked forward to.



haysie said:


> NS hops are lets say heavy in the front of the palate and rich in aroma. I would be looking at no more than .75gm to the ltr for dry hopping. Considering you have already late hopped, back it off to .5 of a gm per ltr. Nelson is a lot like Galaxy when used right its delicious, when overdone drinkers are looking for the spitoon. Good luck with it.


NS gets treated pretty badly. I make my own version of Katie's Planet of the Grapes with Galaxy and NS all the way, then dry hopped at 1-2 g/L and it's in no way grassy, just a kick-in-the-face of fruit. Keep in mind though, a balanced bitterness/maltiness and correct water additions will help keep things in control. The PoTG recipe uses a simple base malt with acidulated malt to keep the flavour well-rounded and hop-forward. A huge malt bill with the same hopping would lead to overwhelmed flavours and a less complex beer.



mxd said:


> I think the theory is if you put the hops in at the start of fermenting the CO2 will drive some off the aroma off, if you add hops when cold chilling then you should maximize the hop aroma


Not so sure it's when cold-chilling. I add mine before that point (three-quarters through ferment, with a few days warm at the tail end) - I suspect the extraction of oils has a temperature dependence.


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## haysie (14/11/10)

@QB Whats the difference between the OP adding at primary or flameout? All those flameout hops I add for nothing?
@QB You may say their not grassy because of bias, they sound awfully horribly fruity to me at those additions.
@QB why would acidulated malt keep the things balanced or how you describe it? Maybe a PH thing and WA water? Acidulated malt is such a wank, cleans the cavities of your teeth they tell me.


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## jonocarroll (14/11/10)

haysie said:


> @QB Whats the difference between the OP adding at primary or flameout?


Well, if he's chilling, not much - maybe an hour? What's your point?



haysie said:


> All those flameout hops I add for nothing?


Possibly. Are you trying to get a big aroma hit or are you blending it with some flavour? Do you want the oils to be fresh at bottling or to have settled out into the trub? CO2 won't eradicate the 0 minute aroma addition, so it's not pointless. If it's a bit hit you're after, then drop the 0 minute and put it in later as a dry hop.



haysie said:


> @QB You may say their they're not grassy because of bias, they sound awfully horribly fruity to me at those additions.


Grassy /= Fruity. Sound and taste are two different things. Don't go assuming something is so because you think it sounds so... now THAT'S bias. My comment stems from my own; judges'; and fellow brewers' tasting remarks of a heavily hopped brew *I* have made, not assumption. Cascade gets grassy, my beer is nowhere near as such. Yes, the beer I mentioned is fruity... It's not like I hid that fact in the statement "a kick-in-the-face of fruit", now, did I?



haysie said:


> @QB why would acidulated malt keep the things balanced or how you describe it? Maybe a PH thing and WA water? Acidulated malt is such a wank, cleans the cavities of your teeth they tell me.





"http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Acidulated_malt" said:


> Promotes well-rounded, complex beer flavor.


I find it helps to round out the hop flavours a bit. Somewhat like a pinch of salt will do to an IPA. In this case it's a pH thing - if you think that the pH of your beer is a load of wank, good for you, I'm off to make GOOD beer.

@haysie - you takin' the piss or just trying to sound difficult?


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## speedie (14/11/10)

Ok dudes have just come back from workshop/brewery and would like to say that there was a wonderful smell coming from the fermenters herbaceous to say the least

The ferment hopped vessel had the most aromas but the other one was still really pleasant to smell

So lets give some thought to the old hop back and it purpose in the brewing chain

It adds another filter to the process it lets the hot wort sterilize the hops it passes oils and aroma to the brew 

So if I have ferment hopped the only significant difference is nonstirilised hop and the actual hop structure (fibre) itself going into my brew

As far as high alpha acid hop giving the grassy flavour I would be hesitant to go there as good old POR is high in acid but grassy?

Let s talk

speedie


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## Thirsty Boy (14/11/10)

Heat

That's the difference. Heat fundamentally and drastically alters the characteristics of the aroma bearing compounds that make it into your brew. Both in which ones make it to the fermenter, and by the actual chemical structure of the compounds being changed by the heat.

A flameout hop addition is simply not the same sort of aroma as a dry hop, a hopback is a weird hybrid of the two and I can only assume a ferment hop will be different again to all three. Why would they be the same?

How much difference and whether you like it better or not, that's where this comparison's results will be interesting. Well, I'll find it interesting anyway.


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## ekul (14/11/10)

This is a little off topic but i have been thinking about this for a week and it sort of relates to this topic.

If i make, say, a golden ale and it is dry hopped. And then i pitch another beer directly onto the yeast cake. Will i get vegetative flavours from the hops that are sitting in the cake, because they have been sitting there the entire fermentation for the second beer?

Sorry if this is too off topic


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## speedie (14/11/10)

TB think about what you stated with heat being the difference in relation to the two concepts

If this has any bearing on yield I would be again hesitant to put my balls on the line but give some thought to what is going on in the boil (heat)



Some more thought on this is ISO stuff sort of out of HB realms though



The hop back concept may have given rise to your APA beers Serria Nevada may well have pioneered this adaption to brewing



And thats what makes this hobby habit so interesting isnt it

Sort of evolving ideas on different concepts!


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## Thirsty Boy (14/11/10)

> This is a little off topic but i have been thinking about this for a week and it sort of relates to this topic.
> 
> If i make, say, a golden ale and it is dry hopped. And then i pitch another beer directly onto the yeast cake. Will i get vegetative flavours from the hops that are sitting in the cake, because they have been sitting there the entire fermentation for the second beer?
> 
> Sorry if this is too off topic



Can't say for certain that you would - But IMO you are certainly asking for it.

Give you yeast a bit of a wash and re-pitch nice clean stuff instead... Then you know for certain it isn't going to be a problem. Why wonder if it's going to be an issue, when for the want of half an hours effort you can make sure.


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## speedie (14/11/10)

tb what the phuck was that all about


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## hirns (14/11/10)

speedie said:


> tb what the phuck was that all about



Well Speedie, he was simply responding to ekul's post and not yours!



Hirns


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## speedie (14/11/10)

Qb I give the utmost respect to PH (potential hydrogens) in the course of brewing my beer 

I purchased a $600 temperature corrected meter to get and monitor control of PH 

There is probably a paper on hop infusion and PH levels somewhere!

As far as judges comments go lets leave it there!


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## Thirsty Boy (14/11/10)

speedie said:


> TB think about what you stated with heat being the difference in relation to the two concepts
> 
> If this has any bearing on yield I would be again hesitant to put my balls on the line but give some thought to what is going on in the boil (heat)
> 
> ...



I'm not 100% certain what you mean. But I will try to clarify.

I am not talking in any way about bitterness or ibu yield. That's a separate issue. But the aroma bearing compounds of hops are, absolutely, there is no debate in any of the brewing science - affected by heat. The hydrocarbon fraction, which is the dominant fraction you obtain from dry hopping, is to a huge extent, removed by volatilization within moments of hops being put into boiling wort... The stuff that isn't driven off is to a large extent changed by heat and heat driven oxidation in hot wort. The non hydrocarbon fraction of the hop oils, is also, but to a lesser extent driven off in a boil and changed by heat.

The traditional fine/noble aroma associated with german lagers and other late hopped beers, are primarily from the oxygen bearing portion of the aroma compounds, which is able to stand the heat. Ergo the reason that you still get a subtle, but long lasting and very fine aroma, from adding noble hops even at 60mins.

Very late hopping, as in whirlpool hops/flameout hops... Still lose almost all their hydrocarbon fraction - but a bit survives, and a lot more of the oxgen bearing fraction not only survives, but is unchanged by the heat, than if the hops had been boiled for any length of time. So a less subtle and smooth aroma, but stronger.

In a hopback (and hop backs have been being used for a very long time, so it's hardly a development of modern US brewing) the hops have a very, very short contact time with hot wort, so only a very small amount of
volatiles are lost, but enough are, and there is enough contact with heat to drive off and change some of the harsher more grassy astringent compounds... Then it's all cooled down fast in a heat ex. Even less subtle and stronger again. You get a big whack of aroma out of hop back beers... Hop backs are the best of both worlds if you are looking for sheer volume of aroma... I think even more so than dry hop. If what you want is big aroma, go a hopback.

Dry hopping slowly dissolves/diffuses out all the aroma compounds in the hops... But you are talking hops that have never been exposed to high temperatures.... So the actual chemicals in there are at least a little different too. Many of the compounds aren't all that soluble in cold wort and never make it into solution. But, you do get to retain, unchanged and un volitalised, all the hydrocarbon fraction. So you keep all your myrcene and caraphylene and fanescene etc etc. And they are punchy enough so they tend to dominate. But you also keep a lot of the harsher, more unpleasant compounds too, so it can be easy to overdo dry hopping and lose the good in the bad.

Hell, there was another thread recently about warming your hops up, where a German trained brewer though that hops straight out of the freezer should be allowed to warm up to room temp before use to allow volatiles to escape, cause they are bad .... Or you could do the opposite like an american IPa brewer and work your arse off to pile in as many as you can and keep every last bit.... Cause they are so good.

What sort of organoleptic experience you are looking for, should dictate where you apply your hops. If you just want more hop aroma - _use more hops_ at the place you usually do. If you want a different character of hop aroma, then you look at technique. But if you think you can replace a late boil hop with a dry hop and it's going to be the same thing... Well - it isn't. Or you can just go wild and put em in everywhere - and that has it's charm too.

So, like i said, I wasn't really sure about the point you were making/question you were asking... But that's what I have learned about how hops work from an aroma perspective. Hopefully I have cleared up anything I didn't express clearly before.

TB


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## hirns (14/11/10)

Popcorn anyone?

Hirns


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## hirns (14/11/10)

If you re-read the thread I'll guess that he mixed up QB's and TB's responses and statements.

Popcorn?

Hirns


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## rotten (14/11/10)

Does anyone have shares in a popcorn factory I can purchase. I have a feeling price may rise.


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## Brewindo (14/11/10)

speedie said:


> Qb I give the utmost respect to PH (potential hydrogen's) in the course of brewing my beer
> 
> I purchased a $600 temperature corrected meter to get and monitor control of PH
> 
> ...


Dude, your an angry drunk. Too many Sunday arvo drinkie poo's for you.

It is dickheads like you that make sites like this unatractive to the average bloke trying to pursue a hobbie. You get very technical then bleed angry dribble, WTF

I, for one, am sick of reading your shit. So proud of your smarts. Dumb ****.

Cheers All,

Tommy


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## bignath (14/11/10)

Sweetheart, get me a beer would you?

QUICK, the game's about to start!!!!!


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## Brewindo (14/11/10)

rotten said:


> Does anyone have shares in a popcorn factory I can purchase. I have a feeling price may rise.



In the dictionary under "tool" there is a description of this turd.

Where is that ignore button.

Wanker...


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## rotten (14/11/10)

Brewindo said:


> In the dictionary under "tool" there is a description of this turd.
> 
> Where is that ignore button.
> 
> Wanker...



You picked me out of all that, well done.


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## jonocarroll (15/11/10)

speedie said:


> Qb I give the utmost respect to PH (potential hydrogen's) in the course of brewing my beer
> 
> I purchased a $600 temperature corrected meter to get and monitor control of PH


You paid $600 for something to measure something that you call "potential hydrogen's"? Good luck with that. Let me know if you have more money to burn - I'm sure I can hook you up with a 'Sugar's Good' meter.

Anyway, my comments were to haysie, as a response to his comments to me. There are other people here you know.

(And you really don't need to alter the fonts when you respond - kinda annoying).


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## speedie (15/11/10)

TB it doesnt take long to bring out the worst in peoples posts does it 

And thats not referring to your information either 



I know that there is a lot of information on brewing science which was probably supplied by chemists and not brewers

So in the real world of flavor and aromas is in the glass in front of us not in some brewing text



I love to read as much as the next (dedicated) brewer to further my (our) knowledge 

But there is no teacher like experience 

If the cake tastes good eat it 



So thats why I posted comments on hopping, it is to get positive feedback not some chicken shite comments from others

If it is any positive to you others my imbibing tonight was one bottle of 3 monts biere de flandre



Good night 

speedie


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## matr (15/11/10)

Brewindo said:


> Dude, your an angry drunk. Too many Sunday arvo drinkie poo's for you.
> 
> It is dickheads like you that make sites like this unatractive to the average bloke trying to pursue a hobbie. You get very technical then bleed angry dribble, WTF
> 
> ...



Champ you haven't seen the half of it!!! You may also find another brewing site even more unattractive if you don't like speedies comments here.

Could also be a case of Pot - kettle - black kind of thing there me thinks... Go find Chapelle & get something to chill out..


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## ekul (15/11/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> The hydrocarbon fraction, which is the dominant fraction you obtain from dry hopping, is to a huge extent, removed by volatilization within moments of hops being put into boiling wort... The stuff that isn't driven off is to a large extent changed by heat and heat driven oxidation in hot wort. The non hydrocarbon fraction of the hop oils, is also, but to a lesser extent driven off in a boil and changed by heat.



How long does it take for the hydrocrabon fraction take to be driven off? Would it still be present when cube hopping, or is the minute or two taken to fill the cube enough to send it out the hole? My cube hopping experiment is going well, and i have achieved a flavour experience that i haven't had before. I'm doing one with cube hopping and dry hop, one just cube hop to see the difference.

Thanks for your other response, i bought some phos acid so i can safely wash yeast, should be here today. Its probably not necessary but i like the idea of it.


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## zebba (15/11/10)

I for one appreciate the effort TB. Don't for a second think that cause the person you are responding to is a brick wall that what you are saying is falling on deaf ears.


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## felten (15/11/10)

I have to say this is the most confusing thread I have ever read on these forums, some posts must have been deleted because everyone seemed to get angry for no reason. Have you guys been drinking?


Anyway, carry on.


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## Nevalicious (15/11/10)

felten said:


> I have to say this is the most confusing thread I have ever read on these forums, some posts must have been deleted because everyone seemed to get angry for no reason. Have you guys been drinking?
> 
> 
> Anyway, carry on.



It seems, Felten, that some others on the forum have had run ins with one user in particular on another beer forum. I dont know personally, but getting the feeling of another 'Boobiedazzler' episode?? 

:lol: 

That was one fun couple of weeks!

Tyler


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## matr (15/11/10)

Nevalicious said:


> It seems, Felten, that some others on the forum have had run ins with one user in particular on another beer forum.



Yep there is 1 common denominator!!!

& I can guarantee this will last longer than 2 weeks.


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## DanRayner (15/11/10)

Wow, wot a bunch of dicks (I'm not talking about everyone here, just the ones hiding behind anonymous monikers while being arseholes to each other on a public forum)

I do appreciate the Canberra Brewers - loads of nice people who rarely lose respect or common coutesy for each other even while on a forum

Anyhoo, back to the OP.

I have just put together an Epic Pale Ale clone la Jamil Zainasheff and The Brewing Network. They managed to get an entire recipe out of Luke from Epic which was nice of him and for those of you who don't subscribe you may be interested to know that it has seven (7) different hop additions - all of which are Cascade! 500g of the stuff in a 40L batch!

75min, 30min, 10min, flameout/start-of-whirlpool, end-of-30min-whirlpool, then dry/warm-ferment addition a few points above terminal gravity for the last few days and finally they add another load after crash-chilling the fermenter to ~2degC and let it rest there for a few (5?) days or so more.

The result is an incredibly complex hop character - a beer that really seems like it has more than just regular, old Cascade in it.

It would seem that loads of different characteristics from the one variety of hop can be expressed in your beer when they are added at different temperatures and physical activity-stages of the boil/chill/ferment.

I am about 3 days off kegging the beer but I will let you all know how it turns out.

cheerio all!

Dan Rayner


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## haysie (15/11/10)

QuantumBrewer said:


> @haysie - you takin' the piss or just trying to sound difficult?




Never take the piss QB, the eggspurts to that quite well around here dont they.

@Dan Rayner, when you were winning,hosting everything mate you didnt have time to post here despite many many calls for feedback, people were abused told to basically go **** off if they asked what was going on with the Canberra brewers mess. Whats changed that makes you come back all high and mighty??


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## Nick JD (15/11/10)

Grassiness in dry hopping for me has been all to do with hop variety and little to do with anything else. 

These days I don't add any hops post boil - mainly because after the first glass all that hop aroma is brain-negated - like if you've ver been to Rotorua in NZ, when you drive in the place STINKS ... after an hour you cannot smell it anymore. 

For me, I like the hops to be on the tongue more than the nose, and I find late additions do this nicely. It also helps if you get hops cheap enough to add massive late additions - I find a lot of the need for dry hopping is aroma economy - there's something sad/wasteful about dipping 100g of hops into your boil for 10 minutes.


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## DanRayner (15/11/10)

haysie said:


> @Dan Rayner, when you were winning,hosting everything mate you didnt have time to post here despite many many calls for feedback, people were abused told to basically go **** off if they asked what was going on with the Canberra brewers mess. Whats changed that makes you come back all high and mighty??



Hmm. I haven't been as regular a poster to the AHB as others but I don't remember actively or consciously denying anyone feedback; if, through my absence, I have neglected any requests I apologise but I certainly wouldn't have told anyone to "basically go **** off". I'm not on a high horse, I just feel more constructive discussion would benefit the brewing community and would be more encouraging to newcomers to this site.

Cheerio,

DR


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## DanRayner (15/11/10)

Ok, that was a little sanctimonious - but it is true though, I like forums where people feel cool posting info or requests for info without it getting ugly.


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## manticle (15/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> Grassiness in dry hopping for me has been all to do with hop variety and little to do with anything else.
> 
> These days I don't add any hops post boil - mainly because after the first glass all that hop aroma is brain-negated - like if you've ver been to Rotorua in NZ, when you drive in the place STINKS ... after an hour you cannot smell it anymore.
> 
> For me, I like the hops to be on the tongue more than the nose, and I find late additions do this nicely. It also helps if you get hops cheap enough to add massive late additions - I find a lot of the need for dry hopping is aroma economy - there's something sad/wasteful about dipping 100g of hops into your boil for 10 minutes.



This suggests though that dry hopping adds nothing to flavour which in my experience is not true. Even if you soak hops in water for 5 days and then drink the water, you will taste something. My main reason for dry hopping is a freshness of flavour in the right beer rather than just to make it smell nice.


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## haysie (15/11/10)

DanRayner said:


> Ok, that was a little sanctimonious - but it is true though, I like forums where people feel cool posting info or requests for info without it getting ugly.



COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC, last comment. If you dont like it getting ugly dont call us a "mob of dicks".
THE END.

Cheerio


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## Nick JD (15/11/10)

manticle said:


> This suggests though that dry hopping adds nothing to flavour which in my experience is not true. Even if you soak hops in water for 5 days and then drink the water, you will taste something. My main reason for dry hopping is a freshness of flavour in the right beer rather than just to make it smell nice.



For sure dry hopping adds flavour - but it can also wreck a batch if one is not familiar with the hop or has an aversion to grassiness in small amounts. I find I can get the same amount of flavour (though less of that "flavour" is the aroma proportion (which I prefer)) through using more hops late in the boil. I find its flavour superior to dry hopping's vegetal hints - but it costs a lot more than 1g/L. Horses for courses and YMMV.

BTW - thanks for the bottle  . It was a supurb example of dry hopping done well!


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## DanRayner (15/11/10)

manticle said:


> This suggests though that dry hopping adds nothing to flavour which in my experience is not true. Even if you soak hops in water for 5 days and then drink the water, you will taste something. My main reason for dry hopping is a freshness of flavour in the right beer rather than just to make it smell nice.



I agree, amazing aroma and flavour in the right dose - and in a way that you don't necessarily get through other additions



haysie said:


> COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC, last comment. If you dont like it getting ugly dont call us a "mob of dicks".
> THE END.
> 
> Cheerio



Yeah, yeah, fair enough, I did jump in feet first with that comment. Ironically, I guess that makes me part of the bunch of dicks



Nick JD said:


> For sure dry hopping adds flavour - but it can also wreck a batch if one is not familiar with the hop or has an aversion to grassiness in small amounts. I find I can get the same amount of flavour (though less of that "flavour" is the aroma proportion (which I prefer)) through using more hops late in the boil. I find its flavour superior to dry hopping's vegetal hints - but it costs a lot more than 1g/L. Horses for courses and YMMV.
> 
> BTW - thanks for the bottle  . It was a supurb example of dry hopping done well!



With all the whirlpooling and the time it takes for my batch to cool down (with a plate chiller) I'm just not entirely sure how much aroma is lost from an addition at flame-out (or how much extra bitterness is extracted, anyone seen any research on this?) Dry-hopping just gives it that little bit more aroma...


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## manticle (15/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> For sure dry hopping adds flavour - but it can also wreck a batch if one is not familiar with the hop or has an aversion to grassiness in small amounts. I find I can get the same amount of flavour (though less of that "flavour" is the aroma proportion (which I prefer)) through using more hops late in the boil. I find its flavour superior to dry hopping's vegetal hints - but it costs a lot more than 1g/L. Horses for courses and YMMV.
> 
> BTW - thanks for the bottle  . It was a supurb example of dry hopping done well!



No I agree with you - dry hopping done badly can stuff a beer right up. That's true for every step of the process though. 

Glad you enjoyed the beer. Plenty of late boil hops in that one, subtle dry hopping and not left too long.


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## speedie (15/11/10)

Guys thank for some constructive feedback and I will forget the negative stuff

As I said in the previous batch it was ferment hopped 

There was about 2 Kgs in 400 litres of brew @ around 5 grams /litre it was far from grassy must say that there have been comments of apricot and mango general floral notes

So when you say if it is over done man you must have too whack a dame lot of hop in to get it to grassy 

I can still remember the first batch of LCPA that Janis MacDonald brewed now that was really over grassy with every burp it tasted like you where chewing lawn



Hay dan @ 12.5 grams / litre that must have been one hell of a brew what was to starting gravity can only assume that it must have been high to attempt to balance a brew that hoppy

I tried an Anderson valley AIPA has 26 hop additions was supposed to be over 80 odd IBUS and my first impression was honey then heaps of hop but not bitter to say the least

Cheers speedie


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## RobB (16/11/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> .....The hydrocarbon fraction.........The non hydrocarbon fraction ....... oxygen bearing portion of the aroma compounds........myrcene and caraphylene and fanescene etc etc. .......



TB,

Are certain aroma compounds more likely to be scrubbed out by CO2 and disappear through the airlock?


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## DanRayner (16/11/10)

Speedie, 1.060 (was meant to be 1.055 but I forgot I was boiling it for 75mins and not 60 so must have miscalculated my starting volume). Most of the hops were in flameout (85g), whirlpool (85g) and the two dry hop (220g) additions. 75min bittering hops were only about 40g. Epic Pale isn't all that bitter but it has a whack-load of hop flavour and aroma!

Anderson Valley is one of my favourites - love the 20th Ann. 2IPA


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## Thirsty Boy (16/11/10)

ekul said:


> How long does it take for the hydrocrabon fraction take to be driven off? Would it still be present when cube hopping, or is the minute or two taken to fill the cube enough to send it out the hole? My cube hopping experiment is going well, and i have achieved a flavour experience that i haven't had before. I'm doing one with cube hopping and dry hop, one just cube hop to see the difference.
> 
> Thanks for your other response, i bought some phos acid so i can safely wash yeast, should be here today. Its probably not necessary but i like the idea of it.



I'm stain out of the fight...

They hydrocarbon fraction goes fast... Minutes. But it doesn't completely go of course, and the later the hop the more stays around. But you are talking keeping a tiny bit more of a tiny proportion.

Fast enough... So that I put my cube hops in after i fill my cube, to minimize the time between hops hitting wort and lid being screwed on. BUT, in cube hops... You have the other factor... Heat. And you have it for heaps longer. This also changes the character of the aroma, and IMO adds a much more noticeable flavor component as well. Cube hops aren't the same as late hops, and they aren't the same as dry hops or hop-backs. They're cube hops... That's what they taste like.

As for it all being from the books... Well, I not only study, I happen to brew too. These are all things i've tried as well as studied. And if the differences between the different sorts of hopping additions are lost on some people's palates when they get the glass of beer in front of them..... Well, they generally aren't lost on mine, so I brew according to those differences and the experience I want from my glass of beer. 

Elul.... Don't wash your yeast in phosphoric acid. Wash it in cooled boiled water. Acid washing is for reducing bacterial load and is worse than nothing If you don't do it completely right. You just want to rinse the hops out of your yeast.... Water is plenty.



Malty Cultural said:


> TB,
> 
> Are certain aroma compounds more likely to be scrubbed out by CO2 and disappear through the airlock?



I think yes, certain compounds have more affinity for dispersing into C02 than others... But for the life of me I can't remember which. I "think" it's some of the oxygen bearing fraction.... It's why you have a nice tall glass for something like a pilsner, so the bubbles have to travel a longer way through the liquid and have more chance to pick up aroma, which will mainly be that portion in a pilsner, on the way. Or maybe that means they have less of a tendency... And need all the help they can get, and the other bits just rush out??

But I am really just speculating. Nothing much to back that speculation up with.


----------



## Nick JD (16/11/10)

manticle said:


> Glad you enjoyed the beer. Plenty of late boil hops in that one, subtle dry hopping and not left too long.



Is the recipe on the DB?


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## speedie (16/11/10)

Some thought was given to using ferment hopping from the concept of using Co2 as a scrubbing agent for the extraction of what we all wont in our beer

I dont have a chemical background but thought there was a lot of co2 going on in the ferment

So have applied some generalization to this brewing use

There are more papers on hop extraction but is will do for starters



http://www.globalhops.com/products.html


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## argon (16/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> For sure dry hopping adds flavour - but it can also wreck a batch if one is not familiar with the hop or has an aversion to grassiness in small amounts.



I totally agree here... i've 'almost' ruined batches by dry hopping. That is i've finished the keg but didn't enjoy it as much as i could have if i didn't dry hop. I've given up on keg hopping altogether cause i get way too much gassiness from it. But again it could be variety. The first time i did it, it was beautiful with BSaaz. But done it 2 or 3 times since with Cascade, Centennial and hated it. Have heard that a Styrian plug is good in a TTLL. But won't be giving it a go in the current kegs.

These days i'm very careful when dry hopping not to over do it. Some of the best advice i ever got in regards to dry hopping was to open the bag of hops, give it a big sniff. If you like it dry hop it. If you don't, AKA you get an aroma which you don't want in your beer, then don't dry hop it. Pretty simple and logical once you think about it.


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## speedie (20/11/10)

Update on ferment

We have had some hot weather here in the west so had to resort to wrapping my fermenters in towels wet them down and keep brew around the 20 degree mark

The ferment lasted 5 days and dropped from 1055 to 1010



All went well both vessels now sitting in cool room and settling down to cold conditions of 2.5 degrees for a few days

 Will then transfer into Co2 flushed vessels dry hop one and leave for a week or two

Should be ready for Christmas time 

Will post tasting results when sampled

Cheers speedie


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## manticle (20/11/10)

Nick JD said:


> Is the recipe on the DB?



Sorry for late reply.

Yes

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1276


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## manticle (20/11/10)

argon said:


> I totally agree here... i've 'almost' ruined batches by dry hopping. That is i've finished the keg but didn't enjoy it as much as i could have if i didn't dry hop. I've given up on keg hopping altogether cause i get way too much gassiness from it. But again it could be variety. The first time i did it, it was beautiful with BSaaz. But done it 2 or 3 times since with Cascade, Centennial and hated it. Have heard that a Styrian plug is good in a TTLL. But won't be giving it a go in the current kegs.
> 
> These days i'm very careful when dry hopping not to over do it. Some of the best advice i ever got in regards to dry hopping was to open the bag of hops, give it a big sniff. If you like it dry hop it. If you don't, AKA you get an aroma which you don't want in your beer, then don't dry hop it. Pretty simple and logical once you think about it.



I'm not a kegger but I wouldn't dry hop a bottle. If I kegged I would apply a similar principle and dry hop secondary then transfer to tertiary vessel (bottle or keg).

Not saying dry hopping the keg is bad as I've never kegged so I couldn't suggest such things and keep my serious, non-arsethrough talking hat on. I dry hop in the fermenter with the right hop, for the right time and it's not grassy. I'm extrapolating that doing the same for keggers will give similar results.


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## Silo Ted (20/11/10)

Way to ignore Speedie's thread bump


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## speedie (2/12/10)

manticle said:


> Sorry for late reply.
> 
> Yes
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1276




what did this batch turn out like
have you done it again and if so did you change anything
speedie


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## manticle (2/12/10)

I've done it and variations a few times. Bottled another version last week.

To my palate it's turned out very tasty and I've had good feedback on it from brewers and non brewer alike.

Decent malt background (I like a good malt backbone) with very perceptible bitterness and a good dose of fruitiness. Definitely no grass from dry hopping. If left to cold condition or if left in the bottle a bit longer, it puts paid to the idea that highly hopped/dry hopped beers are necessarily cloudy (something I've read/heard somewhere).

The main reason for changing the recent version was purely that I ran out of centennial hops - I would brew as is next time and am stocking up on the right hops so it can become a regular.


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## Bribie G (2/12/10)

I occasionally dry hop a keg with a plug of an appropriate hop (which for me boils down to Cascade, EKG or Styrians) encased in a giant tea ball. 4* kindly sent me one he'd got in Vietnam and I can't seem to find any locally otherwise I'd do it more often.

As I've posted, plugs exist because they are exactly the right size to slip through the spile hole of a UK real ale cask and I would bet that the reason plugs are now available in every sort of variety is 
<speculation>
The plug company (ies) found that they had spare capacity
There's a demand from home brewers and others because plugs travel better and are more compact so possibly keep better as well so most are probably used in the boil, not as a dry hopper.
So lets plug everything we can get our hands on - yeehaah
</speculation>

but that doesn't mean that _any_ plug makes a good keg hopper. My current styrian-plugged "Promised Gold" yorkie is just what I was aiming for.


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## speedie (3/12/10)

Manticle 

Heres an update on two brews 

Both have been settling for one week at 2 degrees the ferment hopped is by far the most brilliant of the two which would lead towards hazing from unboiled hop

The other has more of grassy tastes but not out of whack

As a final taste test we will put both brews on to the coven an see witch which is witch

As a foot note I plan to brew this weekend do a pale 95% crystal5% and smash some hop at it citra,nelson,Amarillo dry hop with Slovenian styrian goldings plugs

Split batch for the nonbelievers 200litres us 05 200 litres north western (wyeast)

Will post on completion 

When too much beer is not ENOUGH

enigma


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## speedie (3/12/10)

bribie sort of like ED! the cigar toking sock


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## speedie (3/1/11)

Tasting notes on brew

Everyone that has tried the brews all comment on the ferment hopped batch being the most appealing 

In all aspects 

They both have and hold a very thick tight head the colour is the same but with the dry hopped one it has a lot of hazing and is no way bright would put this factor from unboiled hop

They both contain exactly the same amount of hop so considering this there is a marked difference in the balance of the beer only variation being last amount of hop in usage

Deducting from test I would advocate ferment hopping as a means to get the desired result

It doesnt scrub out in the co2 release of gas as I thought that it would 

If any of you readers try this please post back your findings 



Dan would you please let me know how the epic clone brew is as I am more than interested in your results

I recently brewed a twenty hop batch using three hop varieties and slammed in a lot of hop over a one hour boil 

Split 400 litre batch and used US 05 (dried) and Northwest (wyeast liquid) yeasts 

These are cold conditioning at present 

Will give more results on tasting 

Ps both batches were ferment hopped!



To all of the rest of the non believers have a good and prosperous brewing new year!

speedie


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## DanRayner (3/1/11)

Heya,

the Epic Pale Ale recipe I used was devised and discussed on the Brewing Network's "Can You Brew It" wil Jamil Zainasheff and directly below is the recipe they discuss on air (pretty much word for word) - I did a double batch and I had a great deal of trouble with the volume of hop pellets: my plate chiller got clogged so many times! Plus with my system I have more evaporation and so it was waaaay strong with a much lower starting volume than expected so I diluted it out a little (post chill). Also, cos there are dry hops that go in after the yeast has settled after fermentation I also had trouble getting beer from the fermenter to the keg without any hop flakes that clog up the spear (so maybe rack it carefully from ferementer to another vessel, let it settle again or use finings and then keg it from there?). 

I found mine to have a hop aroma that was a little grassier/coarser and a little darker than the original Epic beer. Slightly stronger in alcohol (even after dilution) the hop flavour was great and, I think due to the evaporation, the bitterness was a touch high. But a pretty tasty beer none-the-less. I'm going to work on getting my kettle sorted a little better before attempting this again and adjust boil volumes but it is definitely something I'd try again.

cheers!

Dan

-------------------

EPIC PALE ALE

22L

1052 13 plato
8.3 srm
23.2 IBU (45 by testing)
(finish 1012)

80% 4.36kg Maris Otter
10% 0.55kg crystal 15 --------------(light crystal?)
6.6% 0.380g crystal 20 --------------(Caramalt 35 ebc?)
3.3% 0.180kg carapils

148degF

1272 American Ale II - clean, attenuates well

7g Cascade 7.5% AAU 75mins
14g Cascade 30mins
34g 10mins
42.5g 0mins
42.5g after 20min whirlpool
57g dry hop just a few days before terminal gravity
then crash cool for a couple of days
57g dry hop cold for 5 days


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## speedie (3/1/11)

dan does it have that resinous aroma and flavour that epic has?


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## speedie (3/1/11)

dan check out my post under citra hop in recpiets and ingredients 
there is twenty hop base there 
will post when tasted


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## DanRayner (3/1/11)

speedie said:


> dan does it have that resinous aroma and flavour that epic has?



Yup, the coarseness of it had settled down after I kegged and cooled it for a bit and that's when a light resiny flavour came through - but in mine there was more of a malt sweetness and so may not have been as pronounced (a bit sweeter than the Epic version - I guess my mashing was a bit high?)


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## bum (3/1/11)

Speedie, can you please clarify what you mean by "ferment hop"? They way I've been reading the comparison is that they're both hop additions added to the fermenter - one at beginning of primary and one at secondary but your conclusions indicate that the reason you think dry hopping is undesirable is because there's hops that have never seen the boil. When and how is this "ferment hop" addition made? Is this actually just a comparison between dry-hopping and nothing?


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## MHB (3/1/11)

BribieG said:


> I occasionally dry hop a keg with a plug of an appropriate hop (which for me boils down to Cascade, EKG or Styrians) encased in a giant tea ball. 4* kindly sent me one he'd got in Vietnam and I can't seem to find any locally otherwise I'd do it more often.
> 
> As I've posted, plugs exist because they are exactly the right size to slip through the spile hole of a UK real ale cask and I would bet that the reason plugs are now available in every sort of variety is
> <speculation>
> ...



Traditionally yes thats where the Hop Plug came from but its grown from there.

You are probably aware that Australia has (fortunately) very strict quarantine rules regarding hops. New Zealand being the only country we can import Hop Flowers from as we have in common an almost disease free hop industry and AQUIS is working to keep it that way.

Hop Plugs (also called type 100 pellets as they are 100% hop flower) are the minimum standard Hop Flowers can be processed to and be accepted for importation into Australia. One of the importers goes to a fair amount of effort to make sure that hops are plugged just for the local market. Otherwise we wouldnt have access to some of the great hops of the world in their raw form.

MHB


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## speedie (3/1/11)

Bum firstly seasons greetings to you

If you have read through this post you will understand that we have attempted to rationalize the difference between dry and ferment hop

In the procedure the hop additions were done exactly the same and at the same time frame

The only difference is that there was hop added prior to fermentation and the same amount was added to the second split batch post fermentation ie after racking to conditioning at 2 degrees 

Both beers are good but the ferment hopped brew is (perception wise) better

If you have any doubts about this proposition try it for your self

We are only here for the beer!

speedie


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## speedie (3/1/11)

mhb

 do you think that the likes of little critters and other breweries have access to international flowers

other than NZ?flowers (cascade)etc


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## speedie (3/1/11)

dan it woulkd appear that you are running your brew at around 11.5 grams/litre 
and most of that bulk is in the dry hop stage
the brew that i put together is only 4 grams/litre and i sort of thought that that may be too much
only time will tell
thanks for your reply
speedie


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## bum (3/1/11)

speedie said:


> If you have read through this post you will understand that we have attempted to rationalize the difference between dry and ferment hop


I most certainly have read it but your constant refusal to use an accepted form of English does make it hard to be sure of what it is you're trying to say.



speedie said:


> The only difference is that there was hop added prior to fermentation and the same amount was added to the second split batch post fermentation ie after racking to conditioning at 2 degrees


If this is the case then why is your twice suggested conclusion that dry-hopping is inferior due to the hops never having seen the boil?



speedie said:


> Both beers are good but the ferment hopped brew is (perception wise) better
> 
> If you have any doubts about this proposition try it for your self


I assure you that should I ever want to do an experiment entitled "Do my mates like dry hops?" I'll be sure to follow your method.

Thank you for inventing homebrew, speedie.


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## speedie (3/1/11)

It seems that even when I am polite and give some constructive point of view

You always stoop to sarcasm for a response

Any way as stated enjoy your coming year 



 :icon_chickcheers:


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## bum (3/1/11)

Thanks and same to you. I hope your health issues are resolving themselves quickly and painlessly.

But please, for the love of Christ, address the point of my bloody question and then maybe, just once, your complete inability to communicate through text won't draw my scorn.

Seriously. If you say neither of the differing hop additions saw the kettle then why does the dry hops not having seen the boil end up the culprit in the less preferred beer? And if the only difference between the two additions is that one test brew had the extra hops in during fermentation why do you assert that the act of fermentation doesn't alter the result?

I'm not doing this because I don't like you (which is true) but because I'm trying to work out what the hell it is you're saying.


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## speedie (3/1/11)

Bum if one batch is bright and well balanced and the other has a haze through it and seems to be less appreciated 

I would suggest that ferment hopping was for this brew a good improvement 

Also it was an experiment for me in assessing the merit in this approach to a brewing concept that was put forward at one of the Covent meetings

Of which I freely post results to the brewing enthusiast

 speedie :blink:


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## bum (3/1/11)

I...urgh!!!

Can you please take a moment to have a look at my last post and tell me if I am interpreting your conclusions fairly or not? I will stress that I am not suggesting that people didn't prefer the "ferment" hopped brew (whatever the hell that means, I'm still in the dark on that one - as far as I can tell they're both dry-hopped but one is scrubbed out and the other isn't).

[EDIT - Now look what you've done! You've got me so flustered I mixed up their and they're! Oh the shame of it all!]


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## goomboogo (3/1/11)

Bum, I think you're on the right track. I think. Both beers were dry hopped. The only difference being, when the hops were placed in the fermenter. I'm sure you know that the timing of dry hopping has long been discussed. Even before speedie was brewing.


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## Bribie G (3/1/11)

I prefer hop tea. Would that be wet hopped?


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## bum (3/1/11)

goomboogo said:


> I think.


But it is just so hard to be sure!

Doesn't help when he says the dry hopped 'one' is probably not to his taste because the hops haven't be in the boil (valid position, of course, but it confuses the issue when the one that is great presumably hasn't been boiled either?) or that fermentation doesn't scrub out hopping because he likes the first one better. I can't make head nor tail of it.


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## felten (3/1/11)

> But it is just so hard to be sure!
> 
> Doesn't help when he says the dry hopped 'one' is probably not to his taste because the hops haven't be in the boil (valid position, of course, but it confuses the issue when the one that is great presumably hasn't been boiled either?) or that fermentation doesn't scrub out hopping because he likes the first one better. I can't make head nor tail of it.


This is where the ignore function comes in handy, ignorance is bliss.


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## Effect (3/1/11)

bum said:


> I...urgh!!!



+1

Bum, he can't understand you if you don't type in the correct font...



Speedie, how would I do this experiement at home?

Do I split a batch into fermenter A and fermenter B and then add hops into fermenter A during primary fermentation and add hops into fermenter B during secondary (at 2 degrees?)?


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## MHB (3/1/11)

speedie said:


> mhb
> 
> do you think that the likes of little critters and other breweries have access to international flowers
> 
> other than NZ?flowers (cascade)etc



To the best of my knowledge Little Creatures had a special import permit and were using Cascade and Chinook flowers, they had to destroy all the expended hops in an incinerator.
That really isn't rational, if the hops aren't sterile when they come out of the kettle every brewer in the world is screwed. I suspect there would have been a bunch of other restrictions on storage and handling to.
Apparently the hop mix at LC has changed so no idea what they are doing now.

MHB


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## dr K (3/1/11)

MHB's memory fits closely with mine.
My memory shows me a website circa 2001 with a by line "We thought we better get the band back together" and a photograph of a woman holding two cusped handfulls of overflowing cascade hop flowers from the US. It also described how the beers were shipped refrigerated to the East Coast.
Little Creatures certainly had to have a special permit, and as MHB suggests I feel it was more about "bond" storage than anything, the incineration of the boiled flowers seems pointless but in a way so sensible.
K


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## speedie (5/1/11)

Yes I suppose it must be dry hopping

 Not in the boil ( wet hopping) 

Phucking funny thing hops

As Nike indicates just do it!


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## Cocko (5/1/11)

I just wanted to be a part of this thread but didn't know what font or size to post in...

Anyway...

2c


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## bum (5/1/11)

Thank you. Now that we've sorted that out - can you please answer two questions for me (again, understanding that I completely accept that Batch A ("ferment hopped") was widely accepted as being better than Batch B (dry hopped) and therefore I also accept that it is better):

Why do you attribute the poorer reception of Batch B to the extra hops not having been been in the boil when the extra hops in the better beer weren't either?

and

Why do you suggest that the extra hops being added at primary don't get scrubbed out by CO2/fermentation when the extra hops being in primary is the only difference between the two beers?

[EDIT - second question was slightly vague]


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## jonocarroll (5/1/11)

speedie said:


> Yes I suppose it must be "dry" hopping
> 
> Not in the boil ( wet hopping)







Yes, that's exactly correct. That's exactly what wet hopping is, because that's the only case in which the hops get wet. They remain perfectly dry in the fermentor.

On another note, here's some further good tips that don't in any way confuse already defined practices via their names:

- You can use malted barley to prevent a stuck sparge -the malted bit is the bit that falls off the grain in summer. 
- A hydrometer should be used to measure the amount of mash-in water to required by placing it in the dry grain to measure moisture, hence 'hydro-meter'.
- If you over-hop a beer, you can use a hop-back to take some of the 'hops back'.

<_<


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## DanRayner (5/1/11)

speedie said:


> Yes I suppose it must be dry hopping
> 
> Not in the boil ( wet hopping)



Just to be confusing - I think "wet hopping" (at least in the US) refers to the use of really fresh, straight off the bine, harvest, undried hops


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## bum (5/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> Just to be confusing - I think "wet hopping" (at least in the US) refers to the use of really fresh, straight off the bine, harvest, undried hops


lol

I think the correct terminology is "worted t-90 pelletised hops hopping" or, the more common acronym, WT90PHH.


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## Hatchy (6/1/11)

My personal favourite of all the LOLs in this thread:



bum said:


> [EDIT - Now look what you've done! You've got me so flustered I mixed up their and they're! Oh the shame of it all!]



Bum, I'm sure it wouldn't have only been me that would've thought less of you if you didn't correct that typo.

QB, I've got a suspicion that my dry hops get wet when I drop them in the fermenter. Is there a dry hop maintainer that I could spend several thousand dollars on that would keep those hops dry? I'm also concerned that when I open the bag the moisture in the air may get into my hops & wet my dry hops. Should I dry hop in a vacuum?

I'm off to build a hop back. This beer is way too hoppy so I'm going to balance it with the hop back tactic. Thanks for putting me onto that one.


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## speedie (6/1/11)

Typical drivel from posters that only drivel

If all of you truly astute brewers put more thought into your beers then and only then individually your knowledge will improve 

Dont slag unless you have a bigger rock


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## bum (7/1/11)

speedie said:


> Typical drivel from posters that only drivel


Thank you for that handy reader advisory notice. Saved me a lot of time.


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## speedie (15/1/11)

Not sure how to go about my assumption on ferment hopping (dry for the sack of some pedantic brewers) but from obviation in the boil there is a lot of action in the wort, so there would be a fair amount of friction going on



Which would cause some sort of electro action (positive / negative charges) which bring about a clumping of particulate

This aids in flocculation of the colloidal matter which gives rise to hazing effect



Now if we take on the ferment hopping aspect of the exercise one could put a similar spin on what is happening in the ferment action 



There is a tremendous amount of rolling going on in the wort due to the release of Co2 so I would assume that this would produce a similar phenomenon with respect to electro attraction

Thus bringing about a clear haze free beer



Now the end result is one brew has a colloidal appearance with very grassy notes and the other is brilliant with a balance that is more evident to most samplers



So from basic thought and observation we have attempted to rationalize a thought process into reality 



Hay the up side of it is there is still about three hundred liters to taste



Cheers speedie


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## manticle (15/1/11)

My own personal experience only but I'm not convinced that dry hopping of any sort necessitates haze. Most of my dry hopped beers come out clear (I get chill haze often but rarely drink my beers that cold. If it worried me, polyclar or extended lagering are my friends).

I have read about haze as a result of dry hopping and I have had many another HBer's high hopped beers that exhibit haze so I don't doubt that hop oils can contribute but you can make dry hopped beers that are clear without filtering.

@Speedie - As far as I understand, part of your experiment was to see if fermentation scrubbed hop flavour and aroma.

Your results suggest that is the case - even if drinkers prefer the one dry hopped during active fermentation, the one dry hopped after has more flavour/aroma (even if it is grassy and less preferred).


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## beerbrewer76543 (15/1/11)

5 pages of absoulte garbage

Good experiment, shame about the shit fight


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## MHB (15/1/11)

speedie said:


> Not sure how to go about my assumption on ferment hopping (dry for the sack of some pedantic brewers) but from obviation in the boil there is a lot of action in the wort, so there would be a fair amount of friction going on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Frankly speedie, that's complete rubbish
First Dry hopping has always referred to adding hops outside the brewhouse i.e. in the ferment or later. You choosing to redefine the term doesn't make everyone else a pedant!

Now your contentions, friction between particulates in the kettle "rubbing" together create some sort of electro negativity. I suspect you are thinking of those old demonstrations where a plastic rod rubbed with a silk hankie acquires a charge and will pick up bits of paper. Try it wet, it won't work, the charges will all just dissipate.

"This aids in flocculation of the colloidal matter which gives rise to hazing effect"
FFS it is the "Flocculation" of clumped matter that clarifies beer (and any other liquid) go and read a definition of flocculate 

Again there is no sensible content in the rest of your post, an assumption that some force is being created is baseless and there is no link to grassy flavour and electric charges. It's a straight forward matter of hop (and some stale grain) fractions going into solution. If you add hops to a wort/beer some components will dissolve some wont, the amount of sugars in solution, temperature, alcohol content (a great solvent) the amount of volatiles scrubbed out by CO2 are all really quite well understood. Primarily it's down to the amount of hops you add after the kettle and the amount of flavour/aroma in those hops. As an example Chinook is going to throw grassy flavours about twice as readily as will any of the old varieties simply because it contains about twice as much of the grassy fraction. If you want lots of hop goodies without grassy characters use the old varieties.

Oh and please a little less aggressive use of the return key, it will make reading your post easier.

MHB


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## speedie (15/1/11)

try it for yourself your brew highness mhb
you must be an all seeing thinking really well educated retailer
you do some reseach mr put you down
speedie


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## speedie (15/1/11)

thihk about how lightning occurs numbnuts


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## manticle (16/1/11)

I'm not following Speedie. What does lightning have to do with hop haze and dry hopping?


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## jonocarroll (16/1/11)

speedie said:


> thihk about how lightning occurs numbnuts








Right, lightning happens because water rubs against water... wow.

By that reasoning, perhaps your beer makes people's hair stand on end... your sentences certainly do.

If you actually think it is friction causing clarity, fine. Think that. Stop trying to convince people who know better, and f*ck off and be happy making beer you don't understand the first thing about (seriously, this is a fine position to be in, just stop sharing your thoughts on it). If, however, you want to keep having 'discussions' about the science of what's going on - read a book, get an actual idea (yes, this stuff is well known and is fully studied, much more than your brilliant new idea experiment), then ask a question, rather than spouting BS.


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## bonj (16/1/11)

Nature of Beer Hazes


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## Shed101 (16/1/11)

Hmmm beer makes me hazy


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## Midnight Brew (16/1/11)

Shed101 said:


> Hmmm beer makes me hazy




Seriously, how good is home made beer! It makes me very hazy, especially BribeG's double headbanger stout!!!


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## MHB (16/1/11)

Bonj said:


> Nature of Beer Hazes



Very good link

Well worth a read, it has all the basic information in one place and ties it all together well.
MHB


----------



## Nashmandu (16/1/11)

speedie said:


> Bum firstly seasons greetings to you
> 
> If you have read through this post you will understand that we have attempted to rationalize the difference between dry and ferment hop
> 
> ...


----------



## Nashmandu (16/1/11)

manticle said:


> I'm not following Speedie. What does lightning have to do with hop haze and dry hopping?




Speedie makes absolutley no sense, ridiculus stuff!


----------



## barls (16/1/11)

Nashmandu said:


> Speedie makes absolutley no sense, ridiculus stuff!


i think hes using the chewbacca defense

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...ewbacca+defense


----------



## speedie (18/1/11)

Tb & mhb what contribution to the this haze cloudy experiment do you have to offer other than I dont know what I am talking about read a book sort of remarks you have put forward



If you have no constructive comments to offer other than ridicule why would you waste your valuable time responding

It is typical of narrow minded people like you to respond that way



I put this to you that everything repeats every thing moves in a frequency (wave length) light, sound, energy



And that things will always follow a path of high too low or + to so dont be so sure that you know what you are discussing



I await your positive comments

speedie


----------



## JonnyAnchovy (18/1/11)

Speedie. AHB's most sucessfull troll yet. 

Can't believe you guys are falling for it.


----------



## felten (18/1/11)

Agreed. obvious troll is obvious, don't feed him too much


----------



## speedie (18/1/11)

felton the aggitator


----------



## matr (18/1/11)

I don't know if you guys realise but you keep spelling "tool" wrong.

What? Oh righto you do mean troll...


----------



## jonocarroll (18/1/11)

speedie said:


> I put this to you that everything repeats every thing moves in a frequency (wave length) light, sound, energy
> 
> And that things will always follow a path of high too low or + to so don't be so sure that you know what you are discussing


Oh, man. I want to reply to this, I really do, but my science muscle hurts already



I just know that if I hurt it once, it will repeat, since everything does, and it will go from + too -.

I've re-read a lot of this thread

and realised that while bum was trying to get you to answer questions on haze

you never actually did. Your 'dry hopped' batch was hazier than your 'ferment hopped' batch (regardless of your explanation, and using your nomenclature)


Wouldn't this be simply due to the fact that you chilled and racked them both, THEN added hops to one - the now hazy one? 
Doesn't take much to guess that if you chilled and racked the hazy one, you might get a similar clarity to the 'ferment hopped' one. 


Then again, it's entirely possible that you've added more trub to one batch than the other, I don't know your exact procedure.


----------



## MHB (18/1/11)

Tb & mhb what contribution to the this haze cloudy experiment do you have to offer other than I dont know what I am talking about read a book sort of remarks you have put forward
There is a group of people on AHB who study brewing, mostly because we work in the industry. By study, I mean have to pass exams; TB and I are among those brewers. So when you post complete gibberish and someone who just might know what they are talking about (usually fairly politely) suggests you should do some more research it might be worth paying attention.

If you have no constructive comments to offer other than ridicule why would you waste your valuable time responding
One and only one reason (for me I cant speak for others obviously), if the rubbish you come out with is left unchallenged, new brewers who dont know better might think its true. This is or is supposed to be a community, hopefully one of its aims being to make better beer. Knowledge and experience work together to further that aim, some of your posts detract from it and will be challenged.
Ridicule I disagree, most responses to your provocations are very temperate, in most cases a reason is give for disagreeing, your first response to start firing off personal insults.
You seem to think calling me a retailer is an insult, it isnt, Im proud of the services I provide and the support I offer my local community.

It is typical of narrow minded people like you to respond that way
Interesting opinion, note that when you have asked questions people have gone out of their way to answer thoughtfully (personally I have even gone and looked up answers for you).

I put this to you that everything repeats every thing moves in a frequency (wave length) light, sound, energy
And that things will always follow a path of high too low or + to so dont be so sure that you know what you are discussing
Well is as maybe, except for electrons that move from - to +. Not that it matters nor that it is related to this conversation. If you have an idea its great to put it up but it will be questioned, if you propose to change the way we all look at beer/brewing the onus is on you to provide supporting argument or (preferably) information. You cant expect everyone to agree with you just because you say so, I know I dont.

I await your positive comments
speedie
Sadly Im positive that I have just used up 15 minutes of my life to no gain.
MHB


----------



## bigfridge (18/1/11)

MHB said:


> Well is as maybe, except for electrons that move from - to +.
> 
> 
> I await your positive comments
> ...



Ah, now I understand why Speedie repsonds like he does - it is NOT his fault ........ It is all the *positive* responses from MHB and others that is drawing out the *negative* comments and personal abuse from Speedie !  Seems that Science CAN explain a lot of what goes on in brewing (forums).

Speedie, I can only congradulate you and your ilk for diving people like me away from AHB - I have taken my bat, ball, science degree and 30 years of brewing experience and gone elsewhere ...


----------



## tavas (18/1/11)

speedie said:


> Not sure how to go about my assumption on ferment hopping (dry for the sack of some pedantic brewers) but from obviation in the boil there is a lot of action in the wort, so there would be a fair amount of friction going on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## speedie (23/1/11)

Each batch was brewed from the same stock 

Each batch was cut in half from each kettle (ie 50/50)

Each batch was fermented at the same temp

Each batch has the exact same amount of hop 

One batch ferment hopped (brilliant)

One batch conditioned hopped (hazy / grassy)



For the boys to contemplate

Why does ferment hop drop bright post boil?

Why does conditioned hop present haze issues



Dont go into oils etc as the same amount is in each vessel



I do get somewhat pissed when some cyber duded tells me that I brew shite beer and know nothing of what I am talking about



I would bet that I have more awards than both of you

And that doesnt even matter to me 

 There are a lot of people that attain brewing educational standards that couldnt brew good beer to save themselves

Cheers speedie


----------



## DJR (23/1/11)

speedie said:


> For the boys to contemplate
> 
> Why does ferment hop drop bright post boil?
> 
> Why does conditioned hop present haze issues



Post Boil??? I assume you mean Post-Ferment rather than Boil....


I reckon the big difference here is CO2 - things can dissolve and dissipate with the CO2... e.g. myrcene, polyphenols and other organic compounds

The other difference is that you have active yeast in one and not in the other - so the yeast may metabolise or absorb some of the haze causing compounds during flocculation or active metabolism

And one set of personal advice - don't assume every piece of criticism/feedback on your results is a personal attack, its getting VERY old


----------



## MHB (23/1/11)

Here is an analogy, now its not perfect but it might get the idea across.
Lets make Iced Tea, its very popular and widely available, there are two ways to make iced tea.
1/ is to make tea and put it in the fridge overnight
2/ is to soak tealeaves in cold water in the fridge overnight.
1 will give you bitter, astringent cloudy iced tea, 2 will give you clear refreshing iced tea like the commercial examples (well if you add 100g of sugar/litre)
Both are just tea and water - the conditions vary same for hops post kettle. Hops added earlier in the ferment are exposed to different conditions to those added in the cask (after the bulk of the fermentation is over).
Hops contain both desirable and undesirable fractions, when you add hops in the early vigorous ferment, some of the undesirable volatiles are carried off (so is some of the good aroma). Adding the hops later means less stripping, also higher alcohol content in the beer what will dissolve some of the hop fractions.
Some fractions that are quite soluble at fermenting temperatures become insoluble and form haze at serving temperatures. Some hops are richer in the fractions that throw grassy flavours (notably Chinook) others are low, so can be used more easily as cask hops.
Sorry we have to talk about Oils because thats what the conversation is about. Yes the same hops in the same beer used differently will give different results. Just like the example with the Iced Tea.

On a personal note, I for one am happy to discuss brewing with almost anyone. If when we dont agree you start spraying around personal insults you will get a similar response, a post like the one above will be treated with the courtesy and respect it deserves, as will you.
MHB


----------



## bigfridge (23/1/11)

speedie said:


> Each batch was brewed from the same stock
> 
> Each batch was cut in half from each kettle (ie 50/50)



Can you please give a little more detail on your brewing procedure. How did you ensure that each batch was identical and any separation was done with thoughly mixed wort ?

What was the starting and finishing gravities of each batch ?




speedie said:


> I would bet that I have more awards than both of you



How do you know what awards I, MHB or any one else has got ? Far better to just stick with the brewing facts and don't get personal which just makes you look silly.


----------



## schooey (23/1/11)

MHB said:


> Sadly I'm positive that I have just used up 15 minutes of my life to no gain.



more sadly, even with taking into account the comments that are actually based on some sound brewing science, this is the truest statement of this thread


----------



## jonocarroll (23/1/11)

speedie said:


> Each batch was brewed from the same stock
> 
> Each batch was cut in half from each kettle (ie 50/50)
> 
> ...


No. No. No.

If I'm understanding what you did correctly, they *BOTH *'dropped bright' post boil - they, as you said above - are the same beer at this point. If they aren't then the entire experiment is invalid. Now, if you actually mean that you have *one dropping bright after fermenting with some hops*, chilling, kegging; and *another not dropping bright after fermenting without hops*, chilling kegging, then we can proceed.

If that's the case, then yes - fermenting with the hops is the difference between the batches, so that's what you need to examine. Rather than jumping to some crazy new theory about what's happening, think about what you *know* is happening - the hops are being stirred around in the ferment hop case, and very likely getting caught up in trub once the ferment dies down. The 'condition hopped' beer however can't do this - it's hops sitting on beer with (likely) very little trub.

This may not be the answer, but it's a start - what else happens to the oils during ferment?

Settle down, drink your beer, and stop trying to pretend that you've done something revolutionary.


----------



## speedie (24/1/11)

I dont think that you can compare water and wort in the same way mhb

Making tea and brewing beer are poles apart

Your analogy may have some merit in trying to explain hazing for iced tea 

But wort composition is some what more difficult to explain



What gives rise to the charge electrically in yeast and the trub

Yeast being negative and the other matter (colloidal) being positive



This is the area where I was giving some thought too in my experiment



There was a kettle addition of hops which is the normal thing then there was an identical amount go into both vessels post boil 

The only difference being where in the fermentation cycle it was entered

 I do give a lot of thought to why things happen and this was one suggestion that was put forward so hence the trail batches





If you read back through some of my other posts there has been a lot of slagging coming my way troll tool drop kick moron idiot

 Is this absolutely necessary from so call intelligent brewers?

Qb you have stated the obvious in this trail much like I did when I was looking for some answers as to why? It dropped bright and other hazy

speedie


----------



## Nevalicious (24/1/11)

speedie said:


> If you read back through some of my other posts there has been a lot of slagging coming my way troll tool drop kick moron idiot
> 
> Is this absolutely necessary from so call intelligent brewers?



If the shoe fits :icon_cheers:


----------



## BjornJ (24/1/11)

this may have been said before.
If so, my bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense 





Sorry if that is harsh, but I struggle to comprehend what is being written.
I just don't get the meaning.

English is not my first language, maybe it makes more sense and less chewbacca defense to others here.


Bjorn













speedie said:


> I dont think that you can compare water and wort in the same way mhb
> 
> Making tea and brewing beer are poles apart
> 
> ...


----------



## barls (24/1/11)

my replies in your quote below


speedie said:


> I dont think that you can compare water and wort in the same way mhb
> 
> Making tea and brewing beer are poles apart
> 
> ...


----------



## barls (24/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> this may have been said before.
> If so, my bad.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense
> ...


beat you too it by 20 odd post, look at 103.
cheers bjorn


----------



## RobW (24/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> .................. English is not my first language, ...........
> 
> 
> Bjorn






Possibly not Speedie's either


----------



## BjornJ (24/1/11)

barls said:


> beat you too it by 20 odd post, look at 103.
> cheers bjorn




Ahh, yes of course.
Remember seeing it the other day and thought this was exactly what was going on in this thread.

Didn't remember I saw it on this exact thread, hehe!

oops.

Bjorn


----------



## barls (24/1/11)

BjornJ said:


> Ahh, yes of course.
> Remember seeing it the other day and thought this was exactly what was going on in this thread.
> 
> Didn't remember I saw it on this exact thread, hehe!
> ...


its all good mate have another beer i am.


----------



## bonj (24/1/11)




----------



## speedie (2/2/11)

This must have come to a rest with itinerant Scandinavians putting there abba spin on what was a good thread 

Chew phukin bacca

My bet is that you! Werent even born when that ground breaking movie hit the screen


----------



## bignath (2/2/11)

speedie said:


> Not sure how to go about my assumption on ferment hopping (dry for the sack of some pedantic brewers) but from obviation in the boil there is a lot of action in the wort, so there would be a fair amount of friction going on
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ummmm, i just wanna make beer............


----------



## NickB (2/2/11)

speedie said:


> This must have come to a rest with itinerant Scandinavians putting there abba spin on what was a good thread
> 
> Chew phukin bacca
> 
> My bet is that you! Werent even born when that ground breaking movie hit the screen




Seriously dude, just send me some of what you're on and I'd be a happy person.

To stick on topic, either dry hop, or not dry hop. Whatever your palate prefers is the go.

Cheers


----------



## Nevalicious (2/2/11)

NickB said:


> Seriously dude, just send me some of what you're on and I'd be a happy person.
> 
> To stick on topic, either dry hop, or not dry hop. Whatever your palate prefers is the go.
> 
> Cheers




Or ferment hop man... Whatev's!!!

SerioUSlY, sPeEDiE, STFU :lol:


----------



## barls (2/2/11)

seriously picking on the immigrant now, i think this one sums it up best


----------



## bonj (2/2/11)

I love this thread....

Someone's an angry little man and won't let it die.


----------



## BjornJ (2/2/11)

speedie said:


> This must have come to a rest with itinerant Scandinavians putting there abba spin on what was a good thread
> 
> Chew phukin bacca
> 
> My bet is that you! Werent even born when that ground breaking movie hit the screen




This is awesome!!

The Abba line, good one. Some times I get the "Bjorn Again" thing as well.

itinerant = Big Word!! Had to look it up. Can't say I consider myself a drifter, more of the immigrant type after having been here for half a dozen years. But reading on Wikipedia one of the classes of itinerant is "World Citizen" which sounds nicer? 
Impressive either way, from someone who struggles with stringing sentences together  





I WAS!!! four. When Movie was. Old, OK!? 
Years. Released_. So how do you ferment explain hop that?? ONE keg! No today, make no sense men det blser vel jeg i, scheise!! Det her er det dummeste p en stund yet, but who cares, right?!.





I usually just skip the bullship on this site, like any other web site. 
It helps to learn to read the stuff that matters and just ignore the ads and some of the posters on here.

But this is too good to ignore.

Please. Don't. Stop.
Keep the entertainment coming.




But seriously, you can come to a brew meetup with us anytime. Always interesting with people with different or strong opinions.
Next one is in north Sydney 26th of March.


( . Y . )


Bjorn


----------



## speedie (2/2/11)

Why dont we go to the fiords you twat if I am going to waste an airfare stuff Sydney 

To the rest of you f heads post something of substance 

Not one (1) of you rooster heads makes sense 

Or can discuss with merit ,fuckall
moderatation please
speedie


----------



## Cocko (2/2/11)

speedie said:


> Not one (1) of you rooster heads makes sense
> Or can discuss with merit ,fuckall
> moderatation please




Great leading by example there bud!


----------



## bum (2/2/11)

BjornJ said:


> I WAS!!! four. When Movie was. Old, OK!?


I've seen you mention, a couple of times, that English is your second language as an explanation for why you're questioning someone's post - don't do this again. That joke is perfect and shows your grasp of the language is more than functional.

Speedie, my rooster head asked you _completely reasonable_ questions about your process so we could all understand what the hell it was you were talking about and you responded with nothing but vitriol - get off your moderately vertical horse.


----------



## speedie (3/2/11)

bum i would gladly discuss shit with you 
as for the others forgetit
by the way three samplers tonight enjoyed ferment batch over post ferment
i dont perpose to name things as dry hop is dry hop 
but how puts it in the ferment
some lame old brewer
night speedie


----------



## Nevalicious (3/2/11)

Gonna have to have a word with Smurto at the next Beer Presentation night for telling this douche to come over to AHB h34r:


----------



## speedie (3/2/11)

bum there ya go see what i mean
shit attracts shit
speak freely @ your case! meetings brother
dam the cursed bligerage brewer


----------



## bum (3/2/11)

speedie said:


> bum there ya go see what i mean


Not entirely. Well, I do see what you mean but I don't agree with you - DrS thought you might either be less of a problem or put in your place here. 

Neither seems the case to me.


----------



## bignath (3/2/11)

speedie said:


> Not one (1) of you rooster heads makes sense
> 
> Or can discuss with merit ,fuckall
> moderatation please
> speedie




fucken hell that's funny....moderatation.... :lol:


----------



## Hatchy (3/2/11)

This thread confused me so much that when I pitched yeast last night I couldn't work out whether to hop it then or later. I ended up throwing 70g of columbus on some spent grain & having a nap on the lawn due to the confusion.


----------



## bum (3/2/11)

Hatchy said:


> I couldn't work out whether to hop it then or later. I ended up throwing 70g of columbus on some spent grain


Serious lols 'round at my place. 

Just me, of course, but it was enough for everyone. Awesome work, Hatchy.


----------



## Hatchy (3/2/11)

bum said:


> Serious lols 'round at my place.
> 
> Just me, of course, but it was enough for everyone. Awesome work, Hatchy.



I meant to post that last night but was too drunk & forgot.


----------



## Effect (3/2/11)

I did a double batch, ferment hopped one and condition hopped the other. Everyone liked the condition hopped beer more as it had more aroma and was brighter than the ferment hopped batch...

Explain that speedie!


----------



## Zizzle (3/2/11)

speedie said:


> speak freely @ your case! meetings brother
> dam the cursed bligerage brewer



amen brutha!!

i hate bligerage brewers too

not only them but fentetical brewers as well!

dont even get me started on cyntabifflicular brewers

this thread! is grate @ making laffs


----------



## BjornJ (3/2/11)

I showed this thread to my prettier half.

I thought it was funny. She did not.

She says I am a net-bully and should not make fun of people based on the way they write or do/don't make sense.

She is of course right.



*Speedie,*
I was just trying to make a light-hearted joke, did not mean any offence.

Sorry for jumping in and adding to the choir.


Bjorn Jacobsen


----------



## bignath (3/2/11)

BjornJ said:


> I showed this thread to my prettier half.
> 
> I thought it was funny. She did not.
> 
> ...




:icon_offtopic: Sounds like your a good man Bjorn. 

Unfortunately for speedie, i think most of the problems forum members have with him, come ORIGINALLY from his lack of willingness to take on well founded advice. Yes it is very funny how his posts read, but it's the attitude i reckon that is getting him slammed more than anything else, so i wouldn't worry too much about it.

I admire people with decent moral backbones (such as yourself) but i wouldn't waste too much sleep on feeling bad for him.

He would have been treated much better by the forum users (MYSELF INCLUDED) had he pulled his head in the first time he was told to.

Kind regards,

Nath


----------



## barls (4/2/11)

speedie, 
this is a great example of why you are being treated this way. 
if all you can do is abuse people and call them out. 
then i suggest you **** off this forum, amusing as you are its starting to wear thin.
wtf does being around when a movie coming out on the silver screen have to do with brewing apart from being part of abusing a person that would go well out of their way to help anyone.
this is me telling you politely.


----------



## felten (4/2/11)

This guy is a major troll, why even bother trying to correct him? If enough people ignore him maybe he'll disappear, the only problem then is trying to correct the BS brewing info he puts out into the forum.


----------



## Nevalicious (4/2/11)

speedie said:


> Hay big!!! Nat get some boxing gloves and some Vaseline
> 
> Then you can really enjoy yourself
> 
> ...




Read most of the other posts on this thread and take their advice dude. 

Also, the above post... Are you age 12 or have you just drunk waaaaaaayy too many of your 400lt batches (by yourself)... Seriously...

"Try being polite?"

Well said f#@Khead!

The Bligerage Brewer


----------



## Hatchy (4/2/11)

speedie said:


> <snip>
> Try being polite it might surprise you
> <snip>



You make a valid point speedie. There really is no reason to abuse people because they don't agree with everything you say.

Some of yr posts make me think that a lot of us could learn something from you but some of them make me wonder if you can turn the computer on yourself or if yr Mum has to do it for you.

Apologies for being on topic but I was lying last night about the hops on the lawn. I chucked in 2g/L when I pitched the yeast & will probably go with 1g/L when I rack it.

If it turns out terrible I'll drink it all myself & pretend it never happened. If it turns out well then I may get to meet the queen & I'll say to her:

Gday yr majesty

I hopped this beer before & after ferment

Cheers

Hatchy

& then she'll probably give me a VC or a knighthood or a beagle or something.


----------



## Nevalicious (4/2/11)

Hatchy said:


> Apologies for being on topic but I was lying last night about the hops on the lawn. I chucked in 2g/L when I pitched the yeast & will probably go with 1g/L when I rack it.



So, hang on... I'm confused. Is that classed as ferment or dry hopping... Maybe Bum could clear this up since he got such a concise answer only 5 or 6 pages ago :lol: 



Hatchy said:


> If it turns out well then I may get to meet the queen & I'll say to her:
> 
> Gday yr majesty
> 
> ...



Thats funny as. BUT, she may be confused also because she cannot ascertain whether you dry hopped or ferment hopped. Also, the beer may be hazy after fermnet hopping... 

Purple monkey dishwaher

Nev


----------



## Hatchy (4/2/11)

Nevalicious said:


> Thats funny as. BUT, she may be confused also because she cannot ascertain whether you dry hopped or ferment hopped. Also, the beer may be hazy after fermnet hopping...
> 
> Purple monkey dishwaher
> 
> Nev



You've seen my beer mate. If it's not hazy she won't believe it's my beer. I managed to brew a hazy stout remember.


----------



## bignath (4/2/11)

speedie said:


> Hay big!!! Nat get some boxing gloves and some Vaseline
> 
> Then you can really enjoy yourself
> 
> ...




You sir are a dead set cockhead.

Here's an idea. Go and have a read of most of my posts and you will see that in general i am a very polite and encouraging brewer. In particular to the people on this forum that will listen to advice. I rarely offer advice if i have no knowledge on the topic being discussed. A lighthearted joke everyonce in a while, sure, but usually i'm here to offer assistance.
I spend much of my time trying to help (as best as i can) brewers that are having problems. If it's a new brewer, i welcome them to the forum. If it's a not so new brewer, i try to be polite and answer their questions from my experience whilst realising that they may know more about certain aspects of brewing than i do.

I have all the tolerance in the world and am usually very much a fence sitter, diplomatic type personality, but when someone like you comes along that clearly doesn't take given advice, and resorts to bitch slapping tactics when he's proven incorrect time and time again, i'll come out of my nice little box swinging mate believe me.

You have no business on this forum other than to stir shit, and i genuinely believe you have no real love of all things beer.

You are a waste of valuable server space and i can't wait for you to **** off and leave the appreciation of beer and it's brewing to the rest of us. 

That polite enough for you?

Nathan


----------



## speedie (5/2/11)

Time and time again you put forward nothing but this is our space and I am the justifier of all that passes the board 

Why dont you try and be adult in your approach

Do you really think that your knowledge of the art is so vast that you can slander with GAY! Abandon 

If you are so passionate about brewing be a bit more ******* positive 

Dont sit on your self appoint bench and pound your gavel 

I would suggest all of you so called vigilantes reread some of what I posted and I am sure that you will find that there was no dissention coming from this side until some Jesuit picked up the first stone and let fly

speedie


----------



## matr (5/2/11)

Well Congratulations speedie.. You have successfully pissed off another forum!!!

To be honest I saw this coming.. Please have a think about the common denominator here..


----------



## Aus_Rider_22 (5/2/11)

speedie said:


> Time and time again you put forward nothing but this is our space and I am the justifier of all that passes the board
> 
> Why dont you try and be adult in your approach
> 
> ...



You seem to be able to call out people but you can't accept when your practices and opinions are proven wrong numerous times.

This might be an elaborate troll, I doubt it after reading other forums, but why can't you learn to listen and heed advice? Would save you a lot of huffing and puffing.


----------



## bum (5/2/11)

speedie said:


> I would suggest all of you so called vigilantes reread some of what I posted and I am sure that you will find that there was no dissention coming from this side until some Jesuit picked up the first stone and let fly


I think you'll find that of the few times that you might have said something where that might be relevant that most people will have a very strong defence in that your posts are uniformly nearly unintelligible - reading them again will give up no more info than what people already understand about your posts - you contribute nothing new and accuse everyone else of the same.


----------



## bignath (5/2/11)

speedie said:


> Time and time again you put forward nothing but this is our space and I am the justifier of all that passes the board
> 
> Why don't you try and be adult in your approach
> 
> ...




:lol: :lol: :lol: **** that's funny...

Just when i thought it couldn't get any better. Mate i am aware that english may or may not be your primary language, and i am aware that it is very hard to convey emotion and context on a forum, but for **** sake mate, you couldn't be much more wrong if you tried. And everyone is telling you this....Take a hint dude, and read between the lines here.

Absolutely nothing about your post makes any sense. It's not the "grammar" or the linguistic side of it. It's the accusations you are making.
My five year old boy started school this week, and even he makes a shitload more sense than you.

1. I am the one acting like an adult here. You are the one coming across like a little school boy who's not winning the game.

2. I admit in nearly every post i submit, (particularly the ones that my knowledge is a little sketchy or inexperienced on) that i am a long way from an expert, and that someone else may be able to help better. So, do i think i know everything about making beer? Absolutely not. And what is "slander with GAY! abandon" supposed to mean. You've lost me on that one but **** did i laugh at it....

3. I am very passionate about making beer and giving correct advice. If you had taken me up on the offer of looking at some of my posts in other threads, you will (hopefully) be able to tell by the "tone" of my advice that i love making beer, and i love helping (where i can) others do the same. It is clearly you that doesn't get this. Can you seriously not tell that no one really wants to help you?

I have no more inclination or need to justify myself any longer to you. I put posts up here because i know i have (some) knowledge, however limited, that may help other people in their quest to make the beer they want to drink. Like other people who post on this forum, and in the spirit of healthy exchanges of information, i often get told by other members that they like the advice i have given them. This would not be an unusual situation for a lot of other member who also try to be similarly helpful. I am certainly not special in my circumstance or my knowledge. But i do know i'm sittng on the right side of the fence mate. Not sure how many people are currently pleased at the advice you are so good at dishing out.

I am going to leave this post and future exchanges with you well alone, as this is not being helpful to anyone anymore. 

I am willing to be the bigger man out of the two of us (and yes i know i'm not the only member you take offence with) which makes me the adult, and you the tiny little lonely person who no one here likes.

I hope one day you re-read some of your "greatest hits" and realise what a cock you have been, and that maybe your conscious has a quiet word to you about how you go about communicating with other people. 

Until then, i'm done.


----------



## milob40 (5/2/11)

yawn!!! . bring on the moderators, now go to your room :lol: h34r:


----------



## bonj (5/2/11)




----------



## barls (5/2/11)

here you go speedie


and for everyone else


----------



## speedie (7/2/11)

If all of you self assured brewers think that I would stop brewing after 36 plus years you are more dumb than your comments

I would bet without a ******* doubt that my gaggots stay connected as 90% of you loose impetuous in your hobby and move onto more wife pleasing aspects in your life

I dont even know why I waste my time talking too slate!(thick shit)

Call me troll give a damn 

No one has come back with any rational haze comments other than moron **** wit 

Someone put your hand up on cyber space and quote something of substance

speedie
ps I do this in word then paste here as my key board skills arnt as go as my spanner hands
font 4 font


----------



## jonocarroll (7/2/11)

speedie said:


> I would bet without a ******* doubt that my gaggots stay connected as 90% of you loose impetuous in your hobby and move onto more wife pleasing aspects in your life











speedie said:


> No one has come back with any rational haze comments other than moron **** wit


Well, we've tried.


----------



## speedie (7/2/11)

comments like that only cement your ignorance


----------



## jonocarroll (7/2/11)




----------



## bum (7/2/11)

speedie said:


> No one has come back with any rational haze comments other than moron **** wit


Yeah, they have. The potential haze introduced by dry hopping is widely documented in pretty much all of the accepted texts (and has been suggested in this thread). It is often debated how much of an issue it is and in what circumstances but I'm pretty sure you're the only person in the world to refuse that the issue exists at all and demands some other answer. It is probably equally documented and discussed that the effects of dry hops are diminished if they are present for the most active parts of primary fermentation - again, you're Pat Malone in your denial of this accepted truth.



speedie said:


> speedie
> ps I do this in word then paste here as my key board skills arnt as go as my spanner hands



Then turn the spellcheck on FFS!


----------



## dashiznit (7/2/11)

speedie said:


> speedie
> ps I do this in word then paste here as my key board skills arnt as go as my spanner hands
> font 4 font



So what you're telling us is that you have the ability to run a spell check, that also will pick up sentence structure and you chose to ignore it, as you do all the advice of the board?? Both the appearance and content of your poorly written compositions are a true testament to your oblivious belligerence.

Living your life in an existence where you listen to no-one, take no advice and attribute yourself with absolute omnipotence in brewing expertise, must certainly be a sad existence. You portray yourself as one who needs no advice, yet seeks it through these forums. In doing so, you've managed to ostracize yourself from all that have read your unintelligible rants. 

If you aren't willing to give some consideration to the thoughts, opinions and advice of others i suggest you leave the board to those that are willing

Regardless, in my opinion, from the activity that you've displayed here, you are an absolute first class douche bag!! 

(I rarely post... But this guys shits me no end)


----------



## Cocko (7/2/11)

speedie said:


> I dont even know why I waste my time talking too slate!(thick shit)


----------



## browndog (7/2/11)

dashiznit said:


> So what you're telling us is that you have the ability to run a spell check, that also will pick up sentence structure and you chose to ignore it, as you do all the advice of the board?? Both the appearance and content of your poorly written compositions are a true testament to your oblivious belligerence.
> 
> Living your life in an existence where you listen to no-one, take no advice and attribute yourself with absolute omnipotence in brewing expertise, must certainly be a sad existence. You portray yourself as one who needs no advice, yet seeks it through these forums. In doing so, you've managed to ostracize yourself from all that have read your unintelligible rants.
> 
> ...



he can't help it, his gaggots are still connected :lol:


----------



## MarkBastard (7/2/11)

Interestingly i dry hopped in the keg with flowers in swiss voile and no haze after a week. Light coloured pale ale. Does the pelleting process cause the haze?


----------



## barls (7/2/11)

i dry hop in the keg with no haze using pellets. explain that speedie


----------



## Effect (8/2/11)

Mods, please lock this thread and put it in the 'hall of shame' sub forum!


----------



## Zizzle (8/2/11)

Phillip said:


> Mods, please lock this thread and put it in the 'hall of shame' sub forum!



No, no, it's too funny, let it go.

Gaggots connected!

Gold! Seriously, you couldn't make that slate up!


----------



## bonj (8/2/11)

speedie said:


> If all of you self assured brewers think that I would stop brewing after 36 plus years you are more dumb than your comments
> 
> I would bet without a ******* doubt that my gaggots stay connected as 90% of you loose impetuous in your hobby and move onto more wife pleasing aspects in your life
> 
> ...


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (8/2/11)




----------



## DanRayner (8/2/11)

I was genuinely interested in the original topic and am now was too amused with the outcomes to let it go so I apologise for opening it up again  

Regarding you original post, am I right in the following summary speedie?

You split one batch after chilling into two vessels. One you ferment out then add hops and in the other you add hops during fermentation. (Defined by you as _ferment hopping_ and _dry hopping_ but both are conventionally called dry hopping, and are differentiated by describing when hops are added relative to terminal gravity of the beer).

You found that the batch that was dry hopped before terminal gravity was reached (ferment hopping) was clearer and had a more desirable flavour than the batch that was dry hopped after terminal gravity was reached.

Now. From what I have read/heard/experienced the haze you would get from dry hopping is comprised, in part, by particles of the actual lupulin glands floating about in the beer. Why would this haze be in one of your batches but not the other? I have read that yeast does a lot more than just ferment sugar and one of the things it is good at is adhere to these little lupulin particles so if you add hops before the yeast has flocculated out then it is no doubt going to be clearer.

As for the apparent differences in flavour, this is far more subjective and without knowing what you have tasted it's a bit of guesswork, but these same particles of lupulin have the sorts of flavours that are usually desirable to brewers who dry hop so I can only assume that if you felt the beer tasted better when hops were added early then either a) you are not fond of these dry-hopped flavours or B) the quantity added was too much and so the more subdued batch (your so-called _ferment hopped_ batch) was less intense and seeming less coarse than the later-hopped batch.

Does this sound like a reasonable assessment of your experiment? (regardless if whether you agree with my conclusions?)

Cheers, Dan

Ps - please forgive any spelling/grammatical mistakes, I have a tendency to write this sort of stuff from my iPhone in bed in the morning and it often auto-corrects without context


----------



## Quintrex (8/2/11)

I must admit I've been quite amused following this thread too, but here is a serious resposne.


Dry hopping can cause haze right... the haze is typically formed of carbon based oily molecules that don't dissolve that fantastically in water, thus they appear as haze.

Hop oils stick to yeast cells right, which is 'one' of the the reasons why fermentation can strip hop flavour. I reckon that the oil component of the ferment hops (the haze forming stuff) is simply being adsorbed onto the yeast cells, reducing the haze in the ferment hopped example and i presume giving a less resiny (cleaner?) taste 


But yeah I've just read Dan's post and I've just basically reiterated what he had already said.

meh


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (8/2/11)




----------



## Hatchy (8/2/11)

Do you stir it when you pitch yr yeast or post ferment?

Is there any noticeable difference to the finished product?


----------



## speedie (9/2/11)

Dan and quintrex 

Thank for your civil comments in my investigation into hopping

Firstly if one states that they dry hop i conjure up pictures of old English brewers putting hops and swim bladder additives into wooden hogsheads or firkins 

So as to not confuse some of the more itinerate brewers I named or called what I was attempting to prove to myself more than others ferment hopping

Ferment hopping; this is just a name tag concept that I thought i would give significant definition to a process as apposed to dry hopping

As stated there was an identical amount of hop introduced during the formulation of my beer the only difference was where it was added to the batch

I hear what you state re yeast absorption during fermentation process and or completion of said

If there is some scrubbing effect of the yeast in ferment would this be due to the friction effect that I was trying to present 

When you think about yeast concentration there is still a significant amount left after attenuation

So would this have a bearing on your comments re absorption into cell wall membrane etc

I can see how you have had some difficulties in expressing some of your ideas as reflected in some of the earlier posts in this topic

It still amuses me after all these years of brewing the little things that give rise to discussion and healthy debate as opposed to open ignorance which has unfortunately presented itself here 



The Citra brew was a good batch but wasnt what I was expecting given the amount of hop and effort that was put into it

If any of you doubt this example of brewing with ferment hopping try it for your self

And report your findings

Cheers and good brewing 

Speedie

Ps hatchy try it


----------



## Hatchy (9/2/11)

speedie said:


> Ps hatchy try it



I kegged some of the "ferment hopped" batch. I didn't end up conventionally dry hopping it because I needed it in a keg for a party on Saturday night. I do still have a fair bit of it in the fermenter & have more columbus so I could chuck some more hops in but I reckon I'll leave it.

This batch has turned out way clearer (still not very clear though) than previous batches, I'm buggered if I know if the hops helped or not. Through a series of unfortunate events (laziness) it ended up getting mashed for 23 hours. I'm not sure whether or not that would've helped the clarity either.


----------



## BjornJ (9/2/11)

Article by Ian L Ward "The Nature, Formation & Prevention of Beer Hazes" 


Link





quote:
_"An extreme example of haze formation in cask conditioned beers, is found as a result of dry hopping.
The addition of whole leaf or pelletised hop material
into the cask at racking imparts a spicy aroma and an
exquisite hop flavour to the beer, but *almost always
produces a beer which proves extremely difficult to
clarify.* In almost all cases, a silicate auxiliary fining
agent is effective in producing a haze free beer. The
phenomenon is still under investigation as to what
chemical component causes the turbidity and why
silicate auxiliaries solve the problem."_


(edited to get the link to work)


----------



## DanRayner (9/2/11)

speedie said:


> If there is some scrubbing effect of the yeast in ferment would this be due to the friction effect that I was trying to present



Sorry speedie, I just can get behind this one. I have searched and searched my print resources at home and used Google Scholar combined with my access to ANU's subscriptions to online journals and I can't find a single article that provides proof of some form of _friction effect_. And that's not to say that it doesn't work that way but the published literature doesn't suggest that it does and I am just not going to believe it until someone can imperically show that this is what is happening and that it isn't a biochemical reduction by the yeast. I am not going to believe it just cos you think it happens that way, if I did I may as well join those happy-clappers at Hillsong or send all my money to the Scientologists.


----------



## barls (9/2/11)

speedie said:


> If there is some scrubbing effect of the yeast in ferment would this be due to the friction effect that I was trying to present


i thought from your earlier post it was the electricity that caused it, make your mind up and stick with one hair brained theory.


----------



## bum (9/2/11)

barls said:


> i thought from your earlier post it was the electricity that caused it, make your mind up and stick with one hair brained theory.


The friction CAUSES the! lightning just like in the frequencies of nature.

It's not hard to follow, barls.


----------



## jonocarroll (9/2/11)

speedie said:


> Firstly if one states that they dry hop i conjure up pictures of old English brewers putting hops and swim bladder additives into wooden hogsheads or firkins
> 
> So as to not confuse some of the more itinerate brewers I named or called what I was attempting to prove to myself more than others ferment hopping
> 
> ...








speedie - it is your 'open ignorance' of anything that anyone has said. People answered your question pages ago, but you've ignored it entirely and instead continued to ramble on about your insane theories. You're not even reading this - you're getting ready to write another phucking useless post that doesn't mean anything. What does it even matter to you what the mechanism of clarity is - you're not going to refine it, or even take advantage of it. You're going to make a giant batch of beer, then people will drink it. This isn't an experiment. You're done, leave the experimenting to people who can do them.

I've kegged my 10-minute rye IPA (200g @ 10 mins, fermented, chilled, kegged - no 'extra' hops, but plenty for the ferment to scrub) and guess what; *it's cloudy*. It's so cloudy, Microsoft's considering buying and trademarking it in their ass-hattery attempt at popularizing 'cloud services' despite them offering nothing more than the god-damned internet to people. If your brew was an 'experiment', consider mine the falsifying example.


----------



## barls (9/2/11)

bum said:


> The friction CAUSES the! lightning just like in the frequencies of nature.
> 
> It's not hard to follow, barls.


so this is what he means by powered yeast. 
the friction causes the lightning which in turn powers the yeast. 
now all we need to do is include mr lucus electrical theory of smoke and we are done.


----------



## speedie (9/2/11)

qb i was under the impression that you where studing brewing science 
and the good pratice of mashing techincs
what went wrong with your cloudy microsoft brew
was it the ferment temp did you rack off the yeast to early
must be frustrating for you
all that science for hazing brew


----------



## bum (9/2/11)

speedie, it has been explained to you already that you have confused QuantumBrewer and Thirsty Boy. I'm explaining it again: you have confused Quantum Brewer and Thirst Boy.


----------



## jonocarroll (10/2/11)

speedie said:


> qb i was under the impression that you where studing brewing science


No, that's Thirsty Boy. Though it doesn't take TB's expert knowledge to see what you've done and why.



speedie said:


> was it the ferment temp did you rack off the yeast to early
> must be frustrating for you
> all that science for hazing brew


I reversed the polarity when I plugged my yeast in, got a powder surge... hazy beer.


----------



## barls (10/2/11)




----------



## tavas (10/2/11)

Horse - life + flogging = this thread


----------



## Hatchy (10/2/11)

speedie said:


> qb i was under the impression that you where studing brewing science
> and the good pratice of mashing techincs
> what went wrong with your cloudy microsoft brew
> was it the ferment temp did you rack off the yeast to early
> ...



Aren't we all studying brewing science (in our own special way)?

As far as the microsoft beer, my guess is that he got blue beer of death & had to reinstall his fermenter with a Linux wort after formatting the fermenter. There's a chance that the new install caused compatibility issues with several inferior beer glasses but overall his beer will perform better. His new beer is unlikely to run on an iphone.

cheers

Hatchy


----------



## NickB (10/2/11)

You need to turn compatibility mode on in your 'Koppafloc' preferences. Should sort out the issue.


----------



## Nevalicious (10/2/11)

Seriously, I've never laughed so much at a thread... This guy just keeps on giving. Keep it up Speedie!


----------



## jonocarroll (10/2/11)

NickB said:


> You need to turn compatibility mode on in your 'Koppafloc' preferences. Should sort out the issue.


Ah, I've found the issue and written a script to patch the problem;

====
#!/bin/beersh

tar czvf wort.tar.gz *.grain *.hops *.water
mv wort.tar.gz fermenter/
tar zxvf /fermenter/wort.tar.gz
cp *.yeast fermenter/
mv fermenter/ fridge/fermenter/
setenv fridge_temp `echo yest.cfg | grep best_temp'
sleep 10d
echo 'koppafloc' >> *.beer 2> trub
find fermenter/ -name 'haze' -exec mv {} /dev/null/ \
echo 'CO₂' >> beer | glass
exit 0
====

and I've packaged it all up with a makefile so all I need to do now is type

make beer


----------



## bonj (10/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Ah, I've found the issue and written a script to patch the problem;
> 
> ```
> ====
> ...



Your use of tar unnecessarily increases both disk usage and CPU usage. You fail to remove the tarball after it is extracted into /fermenter.
I would suggest you replace the tar with a simple

```
cp -a
```
. Perhaps some checks on /proc/fermenter for temperature and residual sugars along the way, so we know when it's finished, rather than just waiting a predetermined 10 days?


----------



## DanRayner (10/2/11)

Bonj said:


> Your use of tar unnecessarily increases both disk usage and CPU usage. You fail to remove the tarball after it is extracted into /fermenter.
> I would suggest you replace the tar with a simple
> 
> ```
> ...


----------



## mccuaigm (10/2/11)




----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/2/11)

Beer plus linux plus bash scripts plus anime = heaven

There is a reason to keep this thread going after all.

Goomba


----------



## Sammus (10/2/11)

This thread reminds me so much of http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=918462 not sure if membership is required to visit that forum, but I'm sure half of you are members as ocau. can't help but wonder if speedie is Fortigurn's friend he speaks of. The first few pages are gold (well, I thought so...)


----------



## jonocarroll (10/2/11)

Bonj said:


> Your use of tar unnecessarily increases both disk usage and CPU usage. You fail to remove the tarball after it is extracted into /fermenter.


[ tar == mash ]

The persistence of the tarball allows a recover feature should the yeast cp return nonzero exit status, possibly due to broken symlinks. A Dropbox backup would also be suitable.



Bonj said:


> Perhaps some checks on /proc/fermenter for temperature and residual sugars along the way, so we know when it's finished, rather than just waiting a predetermined 10 days?


fridge_temp_control could be dynamically updated with another python script to monitor /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/fermenter/temperature via a cron job if one was in a hurry.

Of course, I shouldn't forget the important stuff;

if ( airlock_bubbling == .false. ) release(all_hell) && ./post_to_AHB.sh


----------



## bonj (10/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> The persistence of the tarball allows a recover feature should the yeast cp return nonzero exit status, possibly due to broken symlinks. A Dropbox backup would also be suitable.


Yes, however if a cp returns nonzero due to broken symlinks, a tar would also fail to include such important files. What happens if *.yeast is a broken symlink? I think in that case _all_hell_ will have already broken loose!


> fridge_temp_control could be dynamically updated with another python script to monitor /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/fermenter/temperature via a cron job if one was in a hurry.


A viable solution, indeed. Not just for those in a hurry, but those seeking the most efficient use of resources.


> Of course, I shouldn't forget the important stuff;
> 
> if ( airlock_bubbling == .false. ) release(all_hell) && ./post_to_AHB.sh


Yes, I can definitely see a use for that condition. Well done.

The post_to_ahb.sh is most definitely a necessary step!
:lol: :lol:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> [ tar == mash ]
> 
> The persistence of the tarball allows a recover feature should the yeast cp return nonzero exit status, possibly due to broken symlinks. A Dropbox backup would also be suitable.
> 
> ...




if ( airlock_bubbling == .false. && kitten_in_airlock == .false) release(all_hell) && ./post_to_AHB.sh


----------



## Pennywise (10/2/11)




----------



## Hatchy (10/2/11)

& I thought I was a nerd. I've got nothing on you blokes.


----------



## Malted (10/2/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> if ( airlock_bubbling == .false. && kitten_in_airlock == .false) release(all_hell) && ./post_to_AHB.sh








Take that Bonj and QB!


----------



## Malted (10/2/11)

Hatchy said:


> & I thought I was a nerd. I've got nothing on you blokes.



A grand fight it is indeed! Ah yes Hatchy but which side will you choose, Bonj or QB? I am not sure where LRG is in this picture.


----------



## bonj (10/2/11)

Malted said:


> A grand fight it is indeed! Ah yes Hatchy but which side will you choose, Bonj or QB? I am not sure where LRG is in this picture.


:lol: I'm more of a Star Wars fan myself...


----------



## manticle (10/2/11)

Malted said:


> Take that Bonj and QB!



Cat's facing the wrong way.


----------



## Daniel.lear (10/2/11)

Hatchy said:


> & I thought I was a nerd. I've got nothing on you blokes.



I thought I was nerdy. With my knowledge of the english language poor at the best of times, and my knowledge of scripts even less, I understood the last few posts (and found them funny as [email protected]) far more than anything Speedie has ever, or will ever post on this board.

Speedie = [email protected] Mods piss this guy off, he contributes nothing of substance and BTW steals my O2... bastard...

Leary


----------



## Malted (10/2/11)

Leary said:


> I thought I was nerdy. With my knowledge of the english language poor at the best of times, and my knowledge of scripts even less, I understood the last few posts (and found them funny as [email protected]) far more than anything Speedie has ever, or will ever post on this board.
> 
> Speedie = [email protected] Mods piss this guy off, he contributes nothing of substance and BTW steals my O2... bastard...
> 
> Leary




That sounds like an enigma :lol:


----------



## jyo (10/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Ah, I've found the issue and written a script to patch the problem;
> 
> ====
> #!/bin/beersh
> ...




Ok. I think, finally, that I understand this thread now.


----------



## Malted (10/2/11)

Bonj said:


> :lol: I'm more of a Star Wars fan myself...




Sheesh I am glad of that cause I was scared you'd get all Vulcan on me.
But hey don't try any of that Jedi mind control on me though!

Hey Master Yoda what do you make of all this?
Mmmm, Speedie, interesting is he. Listening may he not be, mmmm?


----------



## DJR (10/2/11)

cat thread > /dev/null

for i in 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1; do echo "$i aggots hanging on the wall"; done


----------



## jonocarroll (10/2/11)

Hatchy said:


> & I thought I was a nerd. I've got nothing on you blokes.


Nerd? Oh, right. Nerd.

And here I was waiting to make a 

tar zxvf methods.tar.gz brewing

joke...



Malted said:


> Take that Bonj and QB!


Return fire!!!


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (10/2/11)

honestly, wheres Chappo when this thread is needed by him........ B) I miss U chap chap......


----------



## jonocarroll (10/2/11)

DJR said:


> cat thread > /dev/null


 Does nothing. Absolutely nothing. Do you mean 

rm -rf thread
mv thread /dev/null

or perhaps something that would make the thread make sense...

sed '/speedie/,/enigma/d' thread.php > better_thread.php

?

Even better... insert this somewhere...

DELETE FROM Members
WHERE Username='speedie' AND Member No='17592';







[quote post='739710' date='Feb 10 2011, 08:50 PM']for i in 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1; do echo "$i aggots hanging on the wall"; done[/quote]
What? And type out numbers like a monkey?

for i in {10..0} 

or 

for i in `seq 10 0' 

= much cleaner.


----------



## DJR (10/2/11)

TB

What do you think about using Perl

i write Perl in 400L batches

i once tried to do a batch using shell, i'll call this the shell-brew and the perl-brew was clearer and was appreciated by all

i think that NO! brewer worth his aggots should code anything in shell



p.s haven't got my sh-fu on after a couple of beers... damn shell


----------



## jonocarroll (10/2/11)

DJR said:


> TB
> 
> What do you think about using Perl
> 
> ...


Let me guess... Obfuscated perl?

[codebox]@P=split//,".URRUU\c8R";@d=split//,"\nyl!m4f togga 3ht 2 em0cleW";sub p{
@p{"r$p","u$p"}=(P,P);pipe"r$p","u$p";++$p;($q*=2)+=$f=!fork;map{$P=$P[$f^ord
($p{$_})&6];$p{$_}=/ ^$P/ix?$P:close$_}keys%p}p;p;p;p;p;map{$p{$_}=~/^[P.]/&&
close$_}%p;wait until$?;map{/^r/&&<$_>}%p;$_=$d[$q];sleep rand(2)if/\S/;print[/codebox]

Go on - run it.


----------



## DJR (10/2/11)

TB

all i came up with was this


----------



## Malted (10/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Return fire!!!



Well done QB, I take my hat off to you sir. To you go the spoils of war.

Oh I feel like I am such a dirty boy. Dare I say she looks like she is trying to eat that pussy?


----------



## mh971 (10/2/11)

Ok QB, I'm gonna have to ask the 15yr old neo genius resident in this house where you got that graphic. Everytime I walk out here he has something like that on screen. 

You guys definitely make my nerdness look more like a biker patch.

Sure you don't want to edit that Malted.


----------



## DanRayner (11/2/11)

I love how this thread has evolved - nothing can beat it; _All Hail The Thread!_


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## bonj (11/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> for i in `seq 10 0'


oh dear... that last character should be a back apostrophe (for want of a better name).

And I love the DELETE FROM USER sql query...

But in response to the "pew pew", I'm afraid I'm just going to have to take you all down with me:


```
kill -9 -1
```
 (go on, try it!)


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## jonocarroll (11/2/11)

Bonj said:


> oh dear... that last character should be a back apostrophe (for want of a better name).


Oh noes! My LaTeX formatting has crossed-over to my shell programming. I borked it anyway, so I'll repair it now;

for i in $(seq 10 -1 0)

and get rid of the backticks altogether. They're deprecated anyways, and besides, the {10..0} method is much cleaner.






Have we killed this thread yet? No? Needs more randomness? Fine;

(Large externally hosted file! Totally worth the wait)


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## Nevalicious (11/2/11)

Yep, thats pretty random man. Funny as fcuk but!


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## Quintrex (11/2/11)

I think we need a thread hall of fame! With a historical listing of all the legendary threads on AHB. 

(would the chinese hop one make it?)


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## argon (11/2/11)

one of my favs


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## going down a hill (11/2/11)

This thread has taken a turn down the somethingawful road. I didn't think it would happen, but I'm pleased. That bees gif is brilliant.


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## bum (11/2/11)

Quintrex said:


> (would the chinese hop one make it?)


All the deleted ones were better.

(inb4 hipster kitty)


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## argon (11/2/11)

:lol: :lol:


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## Pennywise (11/2/11)

^ that's just ******* hilarious


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## Yob (11/2/11)

INEFFECTUAL


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## speedie (11/2/11)

It goes to show how infantile most of you young nerdy readers are

As Dan pointed out in an earlier post you sit behind your little screen and slander at will 

Knowing full well that you have enmity 

I post something of substance and you respond with school kid remarks

Why dont you try and do some investigation of your own Endeavour



At least I am drinking (really) good beer as judged by others

speedie


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## argon (11/2/11)

speedie said:


> enmity



???


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## NickB (11/2/11)

Clearly you've discovered the 'Thesaurus' function in Word there, Speedie....


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## earle (11/2/11)

speedie said:


> Why don't you try and do some investigation of your own Endeavour


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## Malted (11/2/11)

speedie said:


> you sit behind your little screen and slander at will


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## Malted (11/2/11)

iamozziyob said:


> INEFFECTUAL




If sumwon in yer family git the cold, it gunna ineffect-u-al


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## bum (11/2/11)

speedie said:


> I post something of substance


Wait...when did this happen? You speak nothing but crap, speedie. Honestly. Even if you might, upon occasion, say something that isn't flat out wrong you present it in a way that makes appear as though you discovered it when in fact it is something everyone already knew all along.

Those of you taking the piss out of speedie's genuine attempt to make his posts a bit more user-friendly should ease up a bit - you can't go a bloke responding to constructive criticism.


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## Malted (11/2/11)

bum said:


> speedie's genuine attempt to make his posts a bit more user-friendly


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## DanRayner (11/2/11)

Speedie, I got up on a high horse near the beginning of this thread about other people posting angry and someone illustrated that I too had done so - so I backed off.

Some people here have tried to post constructively, some have tried to show you the error of your ways in a pretty forthright manner and some have not held back at all. 

But it has not been a one way street. Many of these posts have been in reaction to what you have posted which, in some cases and at least to me, appeared to be quite vitriolic.


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## barls (11/2/11)

well said dan, 
speedie i think you may have started something when you turned around early in the piece and call us all dickheads and the such for not just sitting there and lapping up the crap you were passing off. 
i did find it highly amusing when you verbally abused us all and then were calling for the mods to come in and protect you. its not going to happen if your going to though mud dont expect to be kept clean. yes i have abused you back, no i dont feel bad for doing it. seriously if you have felt like ive anonymously abased you come on over and ill do it face to face. more than happy to give you my address and speak man to man and we can sort this out.

btw just cause you have been brewing for 30 years doesnt mean you have all the answers. 30 years ago there was some very bad information in regards to brewing out there. this has since been researched and changed. 

as for static electricity in beer, dont think so. what you were talking about with the yeast and trub being positive and the others being negative that comes back to the make up of the atoms. nothing more.
also the hops added while fermenting would of coated the yeast and fallen out of suspension with them. 

one thing to ask did you give the dry hopped beer the same time frame sitting after you added as you did with the ones added while the fermentation was going. 
the hop may have not had enough time to settle out.


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## speedie (11/2/11)

Both brews have identical amounts of hop in them the only difference is when it was added into the process

The ferment hop was introduced at the commencement of fermentation

Or should I say after wort cooling

The other was put into secondary or post fermentation

Now instead of debate why dont you keen brewers try for your own interest



Bum you are a card

Earl love the vessel Cecil

After thirty years of brewing I should have stumbled over some useful stuff

Hay by the way I dont have a cape (brew saviour)


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## NickB (11/2/11)

Wow, friday night posting taken to a speedie new level. WTF do 3 of the last 4 lines mean? Honestly....I really can't work it out!

Cheers


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## barls (11/2/11)

so what your saying speedie is that the dry hopped on was in solution for less time than the one added a fermentation commencement. theres your answer right there.
less time in solution to settles out. hence the haziness. case solved.

for the record i dry hop and always 99.9% of the time have clear beer unless its disturbed in the keg once it in the fridge for dispensing


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## jonocarroll (11/2/11)

speedie said:


> enmity





argon said:


> ???


All I could think of was spelling it out slower, but then .

I'm sure he means anonymity. On that - no, I don't post the phunnies because I'm anonymous, I post them because they are of an equal intellectual quality to your posts.



speedie said:


> Now instead of debate why don't you keen brewers try for your own interest


Several people have told you repeatedly that they have performed their own experiments, with varying results, but I don't know what you expect to 'discover' just by guessing/inventing the mechanisms.

I added lots of wheat to my mash. The beer was cloudy. Therefore, Batman himself has crept into my brewery under the cover of darkness (no one can deny that he is good at this) and added secret chemicals to my beer to make it cloudy. Don't believe me? Do your own experiment!!! Of course, if you get the same result, please get me an autograph (I always seem to miss him).



speedie said:


> After thirty years of brewing I should have stumbled over some useful stuff


You'd think so, but, here we are. I don't know what to tell you.

Now, since you don't actually read posts, back to something silly...


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## Malted (11/2/11)

barls said:


> so what your saying speedie is that the dry hopped on was in solution for less time than the one added a fermentation commencement. theres your answer right there.
> less time in solution to settles out. hence the haziness. case solved.
> 
> for the record i dry hop and always 99.9% of the time have clear beer unless its disturbed in the keg once it in the fridge for dispensing




Wouldn't it be fair to say that all things being equal, one can then compare? Do you brew in 400 Litre batches. NO! Why don't you try for your own interest? Or are you not keen? If you did then you could talk about it, but not debate (apparently).  

Speedie, within this thread, time and again knowledgeable and experienced brewers have proposed sound logic for why they think the observations you have made might be so. It seems to me me you are not looking for answers to your questions; you seem to be seeking support for your own ideas that appear to be contray to popular belief and knowledge. 
That's not to say your ideas are wrong but you have not really discussed or debated them for their merit, instead you appear to have defended them on some sort of brew crusade.

If I give enough sound information, sometimes I find it interesting to challenge the ideas of others; however, I find it is _much more_ interesting and rewarding if others give me enough information to challenge my own ideas, for then I may be able to learn. Are you able to step aside from your preconceptions to be able to examine the information others have presented you with? Honestly, it does not appear so.

EDIT: PS, QB that animated Seinfeld Gif is the best one yet!


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## barls (11/2/11)

mate ive only brewed in 400L once as i dont have the gear here. saying that the average brew size for the isb when we get together is about 300L.
maybe once i get a job ill be brewing in 100, 000 L but we will see if that eventuates.
was not trying to defend speedie just not tryig to put him under the bus atm, give it time though.


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## Malted (11/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Batman himself has crept into my brewery under the cover of darkness (no one can deny that he is good at this) and added secret chemicals to my beer to make it cloudy.



Here he is, an exclusive picture of the 'Batman' caught in the act of 'making your brew cloudy'.


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## bum (11/2/11)

speedie said:


> Now instead of debate why don’t you keen brewers try for your own interest


Here's the thing, speedie: what you're talking about is something a great many people already know. Lots of people feel like this is old ground you're covering and want to punch you for acting like you've discovered something. You say 'ferment hopped' beers can clearer and cleaner and dry hopped beers can be cloudy and grassy - old news, fella. And even more galling is that you refuse to accept the actual reasons for these things as being the actual reasons and insist on some static electricity theory. Kinda bullshitty, guy.



speedie said:


> Bum you are a card


No denial there.



speedie said:


> After thirty years of brewing I should have stumbled over some useful stuff


I would hope so (and don't doubt it) but one would also hope that you wouldn't stumble upon pretty much fundamental stuff that should have been covered in the reading you discuss quite regularly.

[EDIT: cleaned up quotes]


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## Malted (11/2/11)

barls said:


> mate ive only brewed in 400L once as i dont have the gear here. saying that the average brew size for the isb when we get together is about 300L.
> maybe once i get a job ill be brewing in 100, 000 L but we will see if that eventuates.
> was not trying to defend speedie just not tryig to put him under the bus atm, give it time though.




Ok just to clarify, my comments to you were tongue in cheek, a bit of a piss poor parody of some of the language I had observed from Mr Gonzales. I spose I shoulda put more smileys in it. But hey we are able to step back and clarify these things, to aid our understanding of what the other has said...


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## barls (11/2/11)

your right as i said i wasnt putting him under the bus atm, might start again tomorrow
its all good. even my raspberry wheat was clear and that was a year and half old, pity there is no more bottles of it


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## Malted (11/2/11)

barls said:


> even my raspberry wheat was clear and that was a year and half old, pity there is no more bottles of it




I have been thinking that would be a good sorta drop to make as I like wheat beers and I like rasberries. Is it kinda sour from the raspberries or just the sweet raspberry flavour? I'd like to know more about it.


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## barls (12/2/11)

mine was a tart raspberry, the next batch will be sour definately. got a frambrose fermenting atm.


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## Malted (12/2/11)

barls said:


> mine was a tart raspberry, the next batch will be sour definately. got a frambrose fermenting atm.




Can you explain that more? So tart is more of an acidic kinda perception is it, rather than sour. Tart versus sour - I really am intrigued now. 
How is a Frambroise different? Is it based on rasberry instead of being raspberry flavoured/infused?


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## barls (12/2/11)

Malted said:


> Can you explain that more? So tart is more of an acidic kinda perception is it, rather than sour. Tart versus sour - I really am intrigued now.
> How is a Frambroise different? Is it based on rasberry instead of being raspberry flavoured/infused?


thats right well the way i look at it. a frambrose is a raspberry lambic, so sour raspberry. this one may come from a kit but its going to very drink able at the end.

the one i plan that will be ag, will be 50% ale, 50% wheat then about 1.5 to 2kgs of fresh raspberries.


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## DanRayner (12/2/11)

Hmmm... In terms of the four basic tastes (five, if you're Japanese and believe in uomami) I thought sour and tart were the same thing; a response to acidity and not one of the other three (salty, sweet & bitter)?


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## speedie (12/2/11)

hay dan if it looks like shit smells like shit it must be ?
dam those nippindenso:s
is it the front of the tongue ,sides or back that we those buggers are useing
make my a whaler @ macers


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## Greg Lawrence (12/2/11)

_Hey_ speedie, you MIGHT!! want ,check to this out? 

online grammar

Im ,not usually. a (graMMar) nazI-but ,you have pushed me (over) the edGe:"


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## QldKev (12/2/11)

or even here

http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/index.htm



I think it is almost time we start a I <3 speedie thread B)


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## bum (12/2/11)

Quintrex said:


> I think we need a thread hall of fame! With a historical listing of all the legendary threads on AHB.
> 
> (would the chinese hop one make it?)


I see the new Chinese Hop BB elsewhere is getting even more ugly than the one here got...


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (12/2/11)

QldKev said:


> I think it is almost time we start a I <3 speedie thread B)




why bother? dont we all enjoy shitting on him in this and his perception thread? I know i do :lol: ........


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## Greg Lawrence (13/2/11)

bum said:


> I see the new Chinese Hop BB elsewhere is getting even more ugly than the one here got...



Maybe Graham & Speedie are the same person. Both have shocking spelling and grammar.....


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## goomboogo (13/2/11)

bum said:


> I see the new Chinese Hop BB elsewhere is getting even more ugly than the one here got...



First it was software piracy and now it's insurance fraud. Class act.


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## barls (14/2/11)

malted, i see them as different ends of the same spectrum. with tart at one end of the line and out there sour at the other. but back to the topic


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## Malted (14/2/11)

barls said:


> malted, i see them as different ends of the same spectrum. with tart at one end of the line and out there sour at the other. but back to the topic




Do you mean like this?







Or like this?







It is all good Barls, I get what you're saying. Cheers.


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## JonnyAnchovy (14/2/11)

DanRayner said:


> Hmmm... In terms of the four basic tastes (five, if you're Japanese and believe in uomami) I thought sour and tart were the same thing; a response to acidity and not one of the other three (salty, sweet & bitter)?



Don't have to be Japanese to believe in it...... It's fairly obvious and easy to pick. Ever tried konbu? It has a fairly intense umami flavor.


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## DanRayner (14/2/11)

JonnyAnchovy said:


> Don't have to be Japanese to believe in it...... It's fairly obvious and easy to pick. Ever tried konbu? It has a fairly intense umami flavor.



I ain't Japanese so I haven't tried konbu

(ok, I'm joking now, I do eat Japanese and I have experienced umami - glutamic acid that causes umami is found in many things - including breast milk :blink: )

Yeah, yeah, I withdraw my previous statement 

Tart/Sour are the same thing when it comes to the *five* basic tastes; salty, sour, bitter, sweet and umami.

I guess what Barls is saying is: if it is only slightly sour he might call it tart?


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## Pennywise (14/2/11)

Pungent, and Astringent


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## Malted (14/2/11)

JonnyAnchovy said:


> Don't have to be Japanese to believe in it...... It's fairly obvious and easy to pick. Ever tried konbu? It has a fairly intense umami flavor.




I thought Umami did not have a flavour as such but intensified other flavours?


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## speedie (15/3/11)

an up date on the beer that was brewed for this test prior to xmas (12 weeks old)
tonight we sampled some ferment hop beer which was smashed with nelson hop 
and i must say it is well more than pleasing
holds an amzing head is well balanced for the amount of hop 
and the color is deep copper
if anyone would repeat this formula you would be more than happy
speedster :icon_drunk:


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## Nevalicious (15/3/11)

speedie said:


> an up date on the beer that was brewed for this test prior to xmas (12 weeks old)
> tonight we sampled some ferment hop beer which was smashed with nelson hop
> and i must say it is well more than pleasing
> holds an amzing head is well balanced for the amount of hop
> ...



Here we go again...


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (16/3/11)

> an up date on the beer that was brewed for this test prior to xmas (12 weeks old)
> tonight we sampled some ferment hop beer which was smashed with nelson hop
> and i must say it is well more than pleasing
> holds an amzing head is well balanced for the amount of hop
> ...




what was the grain bill? What volumes and how much hops were added?


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## RetsamHsam (16/3/11)

So Speedie... Have you any plans to organise a bulk buy of hops from China??


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## speedie (16/3/11)

wallace 
if you want the base ingredients list i will post it for you 
please try to brew along the same time frame and heat requirements


no i have noo! planes to import hops from china
i much prefer to use local suppliers and keep my dollar here
even though it is a NZ hop


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (16/3/11)

speedie said:


> wallace
> if you want the base ingredients list i will post it for you
> please try to brew along the same time frame and heat requirements




Well........


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## jonocarroll (16/3/11)

speedie said:


> no i have noo! *planes* to import hops from china


It's already been suggested that you could use a boat...



earle said:


>



I really hate to ask this, but when you say you 'smashed' the beer with NS, do you mean you added lots, you made a *S*ingle *M*alt *A*nd *S*ingle *H*op beer, or some other definition that a trained team of linguists wouldn't guess at?


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## speedie (16/3/11)

QB 
no i used heaps of hop single variety and yes it wasnt all pale malt
so if you would like to try this brew ask
it is a shame that you missed by one day you could have been a halloween baby like me

wallace do you wont this formula or well!!
SPEEDO
:icon_chickcheers:


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## Malted (17/3/11)

speedie said:


> QB
> no i used heaps of hop single variety and yes it wasnt all pale malt
> so if you would like to try this brew ask
> it is a shame that you missed by one day you could have been a halloween baby like me
> ...



Speedster, I thought Wallace made it quite clear in post #278 "what was the grain bill? What volumes and how much hops were added?" His later comment of "Well......." would seem to me to imply to me that what he was really saying was, 'ok I am still waiting for you to post it since you said you would'. 

I too would be interested to see the recipe that you used, please post it. I should like to see your grain bill, water volumes, mash temperatures, mash times, time of wort boil, amount of hops added and when, yeast variety, fermentation temps & times, did you use a secondary fermentation and if so how did you go about it - you know what I mean, a full recipe. 

Let's make it clear: *yes, please post the full recipe here*.


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## gregs (17/3/11)

He doesnt have a recipe.

He doesnt brew beer. 

He drinks beer and misquotes beer magazines ect.


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## speedie (18/3/11)

malted i will get over to my workshop/brewey and get that formula for you

remembered that i posted it on another site 
this is a reduced version of my 400 litre batch but i am sure that if followed it will be as good

"Formulation" for "Dusty Nelson"
Target knockout volume of 22 litres
Target gravity 1060 or 15 degrees Plato
Based on system extract efficiency of 70% 
Desired Plato 15 degrees 
Kgs = 15 x 22 / 70 = 4.71 K/gs
Potential alcohol @ 75% attenuation = 1060 1010 / 6.6 %av

Grain bill 4.25K/gs of pale malt (Kirin)
.112 K/gs of wheat malt JW
.336 K/gs of crystal malt JW
.022 K/gs of black malt JW
.112 K/gs of rye wyermann malt JW 

Mash water 10 litres from 2.0 litres to one K/g of grain
Sparge water 19.6 liters of scheme water
let it stand overnight to liberate chlorine and next day adjust Ph with food grade phosphoric acid to 5.5 Ph
This will be a stiff mash and must be stirred during steps
Heat water to 56 degrees and dough in hold @ 53 degrees for 20 Mins
Raise to 64 degrees and hold for 60 Mins
Raise to 71 degrees and hold for 10 Mins
Raise to 81 degrees and transfer to sparge vessel
Run to kettle when particulate has cleared
Sparge with ph adjusted water @ 77 degrees

Boil time one hour after collection of all wort into kettle

Hop selection 
22 Grms nelson sauvin @11.5 % AA in boil for 45 Mins 
35 Grms nelson sauvin @11.5 % AA in boil for 10 Mins 

Yeast selection US 05 @ 76% attenuation
Ferment @ 16 degrees for approximately 5-6 days 
Transfer off yeast after completion of fermentation into Co2 flushed fermenter and add 35 Grms nelson sauvin @11.5 %


After completion of fermentation rack of hops into Co2 flushed fermenter
And cold settle @ 2 degrees for two weeks then transfer to
Co2 flushed kegs and force carbonate 
Dispense under pressure via Pluto tap and enjoy

To convert this to 400 litre brew divide 400 by 22 for multiplier of 18.8
Then use to multiply the above grain and hop bill
this brew is slightly different from the last one as it was kettle hopped
Then the last hop addition was put into primary fermentation
After some discussion with fellow brewers it was decided to cut kettle hopping and to dry hop in secondary or conditioning time
The current brew has apricot fruit to it followed by some citrus to bitter profiles
Lovely nose
Colour is deep copper
Head magnificent with very good lacing

Speedie





All comments welcome *good luck malted and wallace
gregs so i sit around and post from miss quotes from mags you tosser :icon_vomit: *


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (18/3/11)

speedie said:


> wallace do you wont this formula or well!!
> SPEEDO
> :icon_chickcheers:




Come'on speedo mate........ Whats the recipe Errrrrrr, FORMULA????

edit: 2 MINS TO LATE........ :icon_cheers:


----------

