# Real Low Alcohol Beer



## kangabill (24/1/10)

I've brewed my own for some 20 years. But with a medication I'm NOW on any alcohol gives me a raging headache.

Bummer Eh??  

BUT after some experimentation I found Coopers "Birell"; supposedly 0.5% alcohol.  

Ok... OK .... so it sounds dreadful. Actually it doesn't taste too bad and it doesn't give me a blazing headache.  

*QUESTION*

Using Coopers cans (don't all abuse me) how much malt would I use in 25l to get down that low.
Or should I use a 60l brewer and add 1 or a fraction more 750gm cans to how many Liters in brewer?

Any help would be appreciated. I know it's a sad way to be in but at least I can still pretend it's 100HP real beer <_<


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## rclemmett (24/1/10)

I don't think it would be possible to brew beer, that tastes like beer and not flavoured water, at that low an alc % with a kit.

I think you would need to look into removing the alcohol from it... ie raise the temp until the alcohol evaporates, or something like that.


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## barry2 (24/1/10)

I suggest you try the calculator at

http://www.brewcraft.com.au/wa.asp?idWebPa...p;idDetails=172

It includes .5% alcohol for the carbonation sugar.

I also suggest that you make very small batches of 2-3 litres until you get the right flavour and bearable body.I agree Birells is not too bad and your production should be at a small fraction of the cost of Birrel.


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## phinnsfotos (24/1/10)

I seem to recall a thread a while ago (6 months) talking about brewing light beers with lots of steeped grains and lots of hops. To try and get some flavour into it with out a lot of alcohol. I liked the idea but never tried myself.


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## dgilks (24/1/10)

phinnsfotos said:


> I seem to recall a thread a while ago (6 months) talking about brewing light beers with lots of steeped grains and lots of hops. To try and get some flavour into it with out a lot of alcohol. I liked the idea but never tried myself.



Yeah, a couple of members (Maple and Ross) posted recipes for Imperial Milds. IIRC they were both around 2 - 2.5% ABV which may be too high for the OP. On the other hand, the concept sounds damn tasty.


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## crundle (25/1/10)

I recently tried a Birell, and although it wasn't quite to my liking, it had a reasonable amount of body to it and a not too bad taste of malt. It was a bit over bittered to my palate, but as a very low alcohol beer it was certainly drinkable.

I was discussing how a similar beer could be made, and a few of us came to the conclusion that you would have to brew the beer as normal and 'evaporate' the alcohol off in a process remarkably similar to a process that we cannot discuss here, and instead of collecting the 'evaporated' alcohol and disposing of the now alcohol reduced liquid, just collect the beer which should now be of a lower alcohol level than before.

One of the guys I know has the equipment to do this, and was interested in giving it a try at some stage to see if it was possible to do, and what effect it would have on the taste of the resulting beer.

I believe that Birell is made purely from being brewed (after some googling) using an extremely low attenuating yeast, which would explain the need for bittering at the high end of the scale.

Has anyone ever tried to see if they could culture the yeast in a Birell (assuming that some is left in there after filtering)?

It seems to be an interesting idea of how to get such a low alcohol beer to have body and flavour, and for the OP it is of much more importance.

I hope this perhaps gets some discussion going as to how such a beer may be emulated by homebrewers.

Crundle


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## Swinging Beef (25/1/10)

Dont some of the big German brewers make a "0abv" beer?
Hows that done then?


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## phinnsfotos (25/1/10)

How about brew the beer backwards?

Make your wort (or extract) fill it up to 23 litres, ferment. Then once it's finished fermenting rack to a large pot and boil your hops. Cool down again add some more yeast and sugar for bottling and bottle straight away.

No idea what might happen, but there wouldn't be any alcohol after a boil.


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## Fourstar (25/1/10)

Swinging Beef said:


> Dont some of the big German brewers make a "0abv" beer?
> Hows that done then?



Via Vacuum evaporation/distillation of the alcohol AFAIK. You could try an 'inverse eisbock' and throw away the condensed beer while keeping the lower alc remnants and see what the results are like if you are not interested in heat pasturisation of your beer.


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## Nick JD (25/1/10)

Go to a scotch distillery and ask for the stuff they pour down the drain from the still. Carbonate it. YUM!


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## muckey (25/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> Go to a scotch distillery and ask for the stuff they pour down the drain from the still. Carbonate it. YUM!




yum. unhopped 0% alcohol beer and scotch - I suddenly feel thristy.............................


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## jonocarroll (25/1/10)

phinnsfotos said:


> How about brew the beer backwards?
> 
> Make your wort (or extract) fill it up to 23 litres, ferment. Then once it's finished fermenting rack to a large pot and boil your hops. Cool down again add some more yeast and sugar for bottling and bottle straight away.
> 
> No idea what might happen, but there wouldn't be any alcohol after a boil.


I think buttersd70 tried this at one stage - the result was not as expected, and not recommended. 

First, you need to get rid of the yeast as much as possible, i.e. filter, otherwise you're cooking up some vegemite. Second, if you boil you will take off volatiles as well as alcohol - to do it properly you would want to only 'boil' the alcohol at whatever temp that is (lower than 100*C).

Perhaps there's an easier way - make up an extract brew with a tin but no extra sugars, then add a truck-load of boiled hops for bitterness to counter the overwhelming sweetness. Another truck-load of hops for flavour/aroma additions. Chuck it straight into a keg and carb up, bypassing the ferment entirely. 0% alcohol: check. Heresy: check. Drinkable: ??? 

Actually, this one's got me somewhat curious... I am actually wondering what this would taste like. Beer-cordial anyone? :blink:


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## geoffi (25/1/10)

The most convincing way I've heard to achieve a low-alcohol beer at home is with post-fermentation heating and evaporation. But I recall reading that while you could get it down pretty low, it was almost impossible to get it down to the level of a real 'alcoholfrei' beer.


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## Mr.Moonshine (25/1/10)

My understanding is that unless you boil the hops in POST alcohol removal, the boiling will either take the hop oils with the evaporated alcohol, or the heat will change their flavour somehow. It'd certainly be an interesting drink!
If you were to go with tonnes of speciality malts, lots of hops and a really non-attenuative yeast, you would probably get a good result (Maple and Ross' idea sounds pretty solid), and you'd avoid the extra 0.5% alcohol if you keg conditioned.

Just my $0.02

Mr.Moonshine


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## muckey (25/1/10)

butters hasn't tried it but he did research the method.
essentially you make your beer and ferment as normal.

Once fermentation is complete you heat the beer up to around 68 - 70 degrees c (definately not boiling) and keep it at that temperature until the alcohol has boiled off and you are left with dealcoholised beer

how good the end product is, is anyones guess


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## .DJ. (25/1/10)

Has anyone asked Coopers how they do it? I cant imagine it would be a secret process?


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## Adamt (25/1/10)

Also, how long until all the alcohol evaporates is anyone's guess.


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## OzMick (25/1/10)

I'd expect to drive off 4 parts of water for every part of alcohol if you're just boiling, that should give some indication of completion. If I were doing it, I'd go with an underattenuated mash and dilute, and if that didn't get a low enough alcohol would much prefer to remove it under vacuum and avoid pasteurisation temperatures. Both methods are used in industry, but probably not together in general.

You could also cut a fully dealcoholised brew with the normal brew say 50/50 to halve the alcohol and keep some hop flavour and esters. You could be creative and heavily late hop to balance things out maybe and try varying ratios?


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## drsmurto (25/1/10)

As Fourstar pointed out, vacuum distillation would be the way i would approach it.

A good enough vacuum as well as a vigreux column and you will be able to 'distill' off the ethanol at room temperature.


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## Kai (25/1/10)

Adamt said:


> Also, how long until all the alcohol evaporates is anyone's guess.



In theory you could work it out on real versus apparent attenuation. For example, a beer starting at 1.040 and finishing fermentation at 1.010 has a real attenuation of 1.0123 so if you're clever enough to evaporate off the alcohol and not the water then that's what you'd end up at.

Of course in practicality this isn't going to work as you are going to evaporate water also but it could provide a good indication with a little correction.


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## Nick JD (25/1/10)

Removing the alcohol from beer should be illegal. We need Australian Purity Laws to stop this sacrilege. 

:angry:


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## manticle (25/1/10)

I currently have a brew that I boiled post ferment to experiment with the idea of killing an infection that was visible but had left no nasty taste characteristics. Results so far suggest autolysis is not an immediate and automatic reaction. I added some extra hops in to compensate for the flavouring hops being driven backwards and it is definitely bitter (high aa hop used and new recipe so no good comparison really)

Time may tell differently.

I guess what I'm saying is that boiling of alc might work. To play it on the safe side it might be best to brew an unhopped wort and try and remove as much yeast as possible. My brew had been racked, fined and cold conditioned before I discovered the infection so maybe non autolysis was due to less yeast in suspension.

The other thing I noticed in Ross's imperial mild recipe is that the FG was quite high which looked like maybe fermentation was stopped early. This would mean (I assume) regularish amounts of malt and therefore body and flavour were retained. I don't know how fermentation was stopped but it reads to me like something only a kegger could do.

Certainly not trying to speak as the voice of experience. Myself I'm not really interested in brewing alcoholic beverages with no alcohol. I just posted because I don't want to do any of the other things I know I have to.


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## kangabill (25/1/10)

As the OP I must say I'm impressed.  

I didn't expect to start the debate we've got. So, if I summarize somewhat.

It would be a bugger of a process and unless done in umpty thousand liter vats stirred by Bavarians with Kaiser Wilhelm mustache and lederhosen probably well outside my limited talents. :angry: 

I'm interested though in the hopping statements. I certainly don't find Birell over hopped. At least my palate is telling me it's got hops and almost a smooth "honey" sweetness/taste to it. Or is that the aromatic hops (instead of bittering hops?????) <_< 

Nevertheless I'll watch the continuing debate with great interest and thank all the brewmisester who are contributing.

My own hops, Hallertau and Hersbrucker are growing as well as the drought will allow and I'll get some flowers in this first year.

Many thanks all. I'll trawl through the responses and see if I can experiment a little with my limited resources. In another life a long while ago I was a laboratory analyst so I'll have a go and do some more Googling.

Have a coldie on me (full strength that is)


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## cooperplace (25/1/10)

kangabill said:


> I've brewed my own for some 20 years. But with a medication I'm NOW on any alcohol gives me a raging headache.
> 
> Bummer Eh??
> 
> ...





Sorry to hear of you being on such a medication: hopefully a temporary thing.

I routinely make beer with fairly low alcohol: in the 1.5-2% alcohol range. This is all-grain, loaded up with hops, just not as much fermentables. You can make a perfectly nice beer this way with 1.5% alcohol. Fermentation is very quick, overnight even. That's with Windsor yeast, which seems to leave quite a lot of residual sugar. The beer's light, hoppy, you don't get drunk on it nor does it give a hangover. 

So I suggest pushing this approach further: more hops, less fermentables. I'm not suggesting that you'll get a prize-winning, balanced ale, but it might still be refreshing and palatable (after all, the hop signature will be there). Worth a try. Maybe 1% will taste fine and not give you a headache.

One problem with boiling off alcohol is: how are you going to measure this? We all use hydrometers and other measures of density, but they won't give you the answer you need. Not many of us have access to a gas chromatograph (like labs use) at home.

Good luck.

Peter.


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## phinnsfotos (25/1/10)

Testing alcohol is simple enough. Just round up a murder of kindergarten kids, as you're reducing the alcohol just hand the first one a pint and see if they fall over. If they do reduce some more and move onto the second kid, easy.


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## kangabill (26/1/10)

A thought came to me re lowering volatile levels (AKA in this case "alcohol") in a beer.

In industrial applications the "flash evaporator" is used as the first stage in natural gas processing to drop out heavy ends (C8 and higher) and leave the lighter ends in a gas stream. Stripping higher than Octane out as liquids and leaving the methane, ethane, propane, butane as a gas by explosively decompressing the wet gas stream. 

Reversing the process somewhat, if you took a fluid stream, such as beer, compressed it (I do mean compress, say up to 1000 psi) and then under controlled conditions allowed it to rapidly (read almost instantaneously) come down to a much lower pressure, the lighter fractions (alcohol) would gas off, leaving a reduced alcohol beer with the same solids as before. It might mess up the CO2 in the brewed beer but the heavier hop oils should stay in the fluid stream. The alcohol with a BP at about 72 degrees C would flash off as a gas.

I'm probably explaining it a bit clumsily, but it would work. 

Thoughts ???


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## geoffi (26/1/10)

kangabill said:


> A thought came to me re lowering volatile levels (AKA in this case "alcohol") in a beer.
> 
> In industrial applications the "flash evaporator" is used as the first stage in natural gas processing to drop out heavy ends (C8 and higher) and leave the lighter ends in a gas stream. Stripping higher than Octane out as liquids and leaving the methane, ethane, propane, butane as a gas by explosively decompressing the wet gas stream.
> 
> ...



Yes. How would you do it at home?


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## Nick JD (26/1/10)

Bring it up to about 80C while gently stiring for a few hours. Bye bye alcohol (and probably most volitile flavour compounds). 

Dry hop for a day or two and then carbonate.


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## shawnheiderich (26/1/10)

I would try the simple things first then move onto more complicated methods. .5% is very low if you could consider up to 1.5% you could try a 1/2 tin in 23l (OG 1020 ish) make up a massive starter and try and get it to ferment down to 1008 (about 1.5%). Maybe not quite what you are after but could be a good start point, next step double IBU and water down and you get 0.75%.

Just a thought, and possibly out of my brewing experience depth, but I would always go simple then make the process more complicated.

Good Juck 

Shawn


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## Dunno (26/1/10)

I think the idea in the OP is probably the easiest way to go. Using kits, increase the amount of water or only use part of a can to lower the OG or the fermentables in the beer. This will leave you with a waterery and rather flavourless beer. To offset this I would try steeping some specialty grains to increase body and flavour, add some hops to balance the beer.. Using a yeast that finishes high will also help. After a few trial batches I think you could make a decent beer under 1%. I have made a few beers as low as 1.5% just to see if it could be done with any flavour and body in the beer. I brew AG so my process consisted of mashing high and using a lower % of base malt but I think a similar approach with kits will work, it just needs some steeped specialty grains to add the body and flavour back in that you lose by watering it down. I also keg so no extra alcohol added during carbonation, that little bit extra might push the ABV a little too high for you if you bottle.


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## Kai (26/1/10)

cooperplace said:


> Sorry to hear of you being on such a medication: hopefully a temporary thing.
> 
> I routinely make beer with fairly low alcohol: in the 1.5-2% alcohol range. This is all-grain, loaded up with hops, just not as much fermentables. You can make a perfectly nice beer this way with 1.5% alcohol. Fermentation is very quick, overnight even. That's with Windsor yeast, which seems to leave quite a lot of residual sugar. The beer's light, hoppy, you don't get drunk on it nor does it give a hangover.
> 
> ...



Actually and now that I think about it, density meters will give you fairly close answer to the numbers you need. Comparing hydrometry and refractometry numbers then plugging them into brew calc software will spit out an approximation of the alcohol present in the beer.


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## kangabill (27/1/10)

I think I've got what I need.

I'll try the last couple of suggestions re less malt and beefing up after fermentation.

I'll eventually get back and let you know how I went.

Many thanks for all of the informed help.


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## Uncle Fester (27/1/10)

Cooperplace has a valid point....

You have tried effective soft drink, and you have tried "commercial" light


Who is to say that an AG at 2%, full of the flavour and aroma we crave won't pass through to the keeper?


Fester


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## Uncle Fester (27/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> Removing the alcohol from beer should be illegal. We need Australian Purity Laws to stop this sacrilege.
> 
> :angry:




Australian purity laws lost all face the day we allowed Lion Nathan into our country.


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## OzMick (30/1/10)

Just had a thought, if one were to encourage yeast growth as opposed to alcohol production by maintaining aeration, you might be able to keep alcohol low but still maintain the same body... Would have to very closely monitor gravity to cut off the air at an appropriate point, and keeping up the air would probably drive off esters and hop oils as would other methods and be more prone to aging, but probably much more doable for the homebrewer if it works. Might be difficult to predict when to cut off air, as the yeast could consume all the sugars quite quickly and just leave you with oxygen saturated beer which would go bad quite quickly. Would be a good reason to prime in bottles with a bit extra sugar, the yeast would mop up a lot of the oxygen and carbonate, at the expense of a little more alcohol, but should still be very low.

Maybe someone doing yeast propagation could be able to decant the yeast off a starter and give feedback on the liquid to say how good/horrible it tastes compared to any other very low alcohol beer? Would be a good experiment to do with the a starter from left over wort decanted from trub on the bottom of kettle, nice small scale test.


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## petesbrew (30/1/10)

kangabill said:


> I've brewed my own for some 20 years. But with a medication I'm NOW on any alcohol gives me a raging headache.
> 
> Bummer Eh??
> 
> ...


During Dry July last year, a muslim mate brought in some no-alcohol beer. I'm pretty sure it was Haagen. It was actually pretty nice.


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