# A Return to Kits



## cliffo (3/1/17)

I've been brewing All Grain for nearly 10 years and never gave a thought to K&K brewing since.

Recently, I've been wondering if I could brew a simple K&K and make it turn out better than I remember back in the day.

Back then, I used kit yeast, no temperature control and probably haphazard cleanliness.

Today I use good yeast, temperature controlled ferments, oxygenation of the wort and much better sanitation practices.

So, I present the brew:




I'm going to make this up to 20-21 litres, pitch yeast harvested from coopers stubbies and oxygenate the wort in a temperature controlled ferment.

I was never happy with any of my K&K brews so I'm keen to see if this turns out different to what I remember.

I expect this will be a one of experiment.

Has anyone else gone back to brew a K&K years later and found it was better than you recalled?


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## Happyrock (3/1/17)

Hey Cliffo. I'm keen to see how this goes for you. My last return to kits didn't turn out very well but I think it was my fault for trying to make my recipes too complicated rather than just keeping it simple and letting the kit do its thing. Impatience probably had a big part in it also.


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## daveHQ (3/1/17)

cliffo said:


> Back then, I used kit yeast, no temperature control and probably haphazard cleanliness.
> 
> Today I use good yeast, temperature controlled ferments, oxygenation of the wort and much better sanitation practices.
> 
> I'm going to make this up to 20-21 litres, pitch yeast harvested from coopers stubbies and oxygenate the wort in a temperature controlled ferment.


You'll be surprised how much better it'll be using good practices!

It'll still have the kit taste, but it'll be drinkable


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## Aussie Mick (4/1/17)

I'm very new back to brewing having brewed all grain in the 80's in U.K.

I have brewed a few kits and bottled up and have had pretty good results in comparison to kits of yesteryear.

However, I recently got kitted out with a kegging system and the last 4 brews were all kegged and force carbed. I am seriously impressed, and I would say it is as good as pub tap beer and probably better. 

I have brewed a simple K&k Coopers Mexican, Coopers Hop Slam USA recipe, Dr Smurtos Golden Ale (extract version) and a Black Rock Golden Ale with adjuncts. 

i too am brewing temperature controlled brews, racked and fined before kegging, re-using yeasts and With the results I am now getting, I don't think I need to consider grain brewing..........so far...........but I'm sure things will change down the line.


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## Rocker1986 (4/1/17)

I made up a Coopers English bitter kit with 500g (I think) dry malt a couple of years ago as a quick brew to ferment while I was away for a week. It was done in the brew fridge etc, but it wasn't as nice as one I did back in my early kit days. Just seemed to lack flavour for some reason. Maybe I was too used to hoppy pale ales :lol:


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## Mardoo (4/1/17)

I've been brewing all-grain for four years now. I haven't re-visited kits, but have put together some decent extract brews using Cooper's, Briess or Weyermann extracts and my own hopping. I've tried some steeping which, kept within reason, has produced some decent to good beers. I think your idea Cliffo to keep it simple does work well. Not going mini-mash though. May as well just mash.


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## bevan (4/1/17)

when I was brewing kits the biggest thing that improved them was controlling the fermentation temp. And keeping the temp down at 18 deg for ales ignoring the instructions on the kit.


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## Grott (4/1/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> I made up a Coopers English bitter kit with 500g (I think) dry malt ......... Just seemed to lack flavour for some reason. Maybe I was too used to hoppy pale ales :lol:


I use 500gm (half a tin) of the liquid light malt extract which I feel tends to give more flavour/body. Changing from "hoppy" pale ales will take a bit to adjust.


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## Rocker1986 (4/1/17)

Yeah, I never did one again after that though. It was only done due to lack of time to brew an AG batch. I have done a few AG English bitters recently which have turned out very nice, though.


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## swiftyb (4/1/17)

Great read guys - am on my journey brewing at the moment only doing kits (convenience, experience and time) and the theme I'm picking up is temperature control your primary ferment. 

Looks like I'm up for a controller and a fermentation fridge!


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## LAGERFRENZY (4/1/17)

The kits are bittered as much as they need to be but understandably have no late flame out or dry hopping traits. I freshened my APA brew cans by steeping about 200 grams of crystal and boiling the liquor with a couple of hundred grams of LDM with a few extra litres of water. Add hop additions and cool. Dry hop as per a normal brew.


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## cliffo (4/1/17)

A check this morning and it already has a nice krausen formed at 17°.

I think I've given this the best chance for it to do it's thing so looking forward to the taste test in a few weeks.

I rate cleanliness and temperature control as the most important steps to making better beer along with good healthy yeast.


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## Nurple (4/1/17)

I tend to brew a coopers real ale kit every so often when I'm running low and don't have the time to brew a AG.

I use the kit yeast, temp control fridge and only difference is I dry hop for 24 hours before cold crash (24-48hrs) with around 50-70g of a fav hop and they turn out very drinkable.

Sometimes the last 4-5 beers from the keg tend to be not so nice if I've taken a while to drink it.


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## drsmurto (5/1/17)

I've brewed kit beers a few times since starting AG. Twice I've put a kit beer into the local BrewAdelaide case swap and both times it wasn't picked as a kit beer.

Before i switched to AG i was spending a lot of effort on my kit beers. I always started with Coopers lager as it was low (ish) in IBU and very light in colour. I steeped some spec grain, did a small boil with hops and used US05. Produced some very good beers, one of which won a local comp beating AG beers.

Now i go a bit further and use liquid yeast and oxygen but the rest is the same. 

We have a kit beer challenge on BrewAdelaide for any Adelaide brewers wanting to join in. Will be combined with the next case swap in the coming months.

PM me for details if interested, not going to link another brewing forum here.


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## Aussie Mick (5/1/17)

Slightly off topic Cliffo, but could you tell me how much you pay for those oxy cylinders?


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## yum beer (5/1/17)

Doing much the same ATM, I put down a Coopers Cerveza just before Xmas, using all my new knowledge, temp control, yeast health etc.....
Don't hold out a lot of hope but I can't keep bagging kits if I can't say for sure how good you can get one.
About a week off bottling, so another month before seeing any real results.


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## cliffo (6/1/17)

Aussie Mick said:


> Slightly off topic Cliffo, but could you tell me how much you pay for those oxy cylinders?


Get them from Brewman, $55 for the bottle on its own.


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## Barge (6/1/17)

I brew kits when I don't get time for an AG brew. They are much better than I used to do. Some are even as good as any beer I've tasted. Hard to believe but there you go. 

Never was a fan of the coopers aussie though. Always tastes like a kit. Equally, i just kegged a batch that used Briess Munich LME. Definite twang there. 

Haven't even tried a lager with extract as I think that will have very noticeable flaws.

I think AG brewing gives more control over flavour/fermentability etc but I believe it is possible to make excellent extract beers. The chances of one not turning out quite right are obviously much higher, but with good practice and a little common sense it is possible to do.


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## bradsbrew (6/1/17)

I have considered the challenge of making a kit beer up to see the improvement from better fermenting and storage practises, but with 5 cubes sitting in the brewshed it will be a while before i do.


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## Aussie Mick (6/1/17)

Thanks Cliffo, I'm a plumber and buy them from Reece at $44 plus GST. Now I know I am not being ripped off.

Anyone thinking of trying a kitv as an experiment, I can highly recommend the Hop Slam USA recipe on the Coopers site. Hands down the best brew I have produced to date.

http://store.coopers.com.au/recipes/index/view/id/124/

I made a few changes. I used .5 kg LDM and .5 kg dried wheat malt, then 30g each of Cascade, Amarillo and Centannial. It was tasting very bitter at casking stage, 2 days later it had blossomed into one of the best beers I have tasted in this hemisphere 

The Black Rock Golden Ale will be getting kegged up today or tomorrow and it tastes very promising too.


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## Coldspace (7/1/17)

I've got mates who I've setup with keg systems and only do kits. Some of the Morgans kits especially the lager receipes turn out really good.

On their brew days I go over as they are still learning , let em mix it all up to the Morgans or coopers receipe , I usually take a big yeast starter of 34/70 or s189 for the lagers for them, or us05 or coopers recultured for the ales , mix, O2 , pitch and run at either 13 degrees or 19 depending, they brew away, fine cc and keg up, 
Turn out excellent,

It's funny when they phone me up and say they have mates over who can not beleave the beers are "homebrew" and say comments like these are better than some of the craft breweries are putting out.

I have to agree, some of the craft breweries I've tried lately are about average in quality. 

That's why we learn this hobby... To make better beer 

Good luck, it will turn out great.


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## Quokka42 (23/1/17)

The challenge of AG is great, as is the sense of achievement, but after you have been doing it a while you should have built up the skills, knowledge and technique that you don't really need to unless you plan going commercial. It's like cooking - you do everything from scratch until you reach chef level and can use "cheats" to produce the mass food in the restaurant. You still need to know the basics if you want to win stars or do a TV show, though - but no-one is going to pick it on a taste test if you are good.

My Mainstay recipe is based on a coopers kit, DME, crystal malt and usually pellet hops (unless I can get fresh) - and more people rave about it than my partial and full mash, and a lot of my friends are POMEs, some legit members of CAMRA!


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## Aussie Mick (24/1/17)

I'm sure many members would be very interested to hear more about your mainstay recipe Quokka.

I tend to agree with your theory. I set up and ran a restaurant all from a passion for a certain style of food, and had 18 months of great success, then the novelty wore off..........big time. I sold the business and now I cook for family and friends once again, and enjoy it.

I am an ex Camra member of.


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## Beefy (24/1/17)

Jumping back into the homebrew fray after a long absence, it seems to me that a LOT has changed for the better over the past few years:
1) Kits have improved. The new top-end Coopers kits have a lot more fresh hop character. The Amber Ale and English Bitter are both particularly good.
2) The products available to us have improved. Better sanitation with products like StarSan, new dry and liquid yeast strains, and improved availability of specialty grain and new-world hops can give kit and extract brews a lot more of that all-grain 'freshness'.
3) Kits'n'bits recipes have improved. The English Bitter based Porter is *so* incredibly good.

Back in the day, I always considered jumping up to all-grain because I thought I was missing something with kits - not any more. If someone can't turn a kit into a really great beer, I don't think that they are a particularly good brewer.


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## cliffo (27/1/17)

An update.

Kegged a week ago, put on tap last night and I'm halfway through the first glass now.

First thoughts are that my AG beers are noticeably superior but all in all for the minimal effort involved this isn't a bad beer.

I don't think I'll do any K&K on a regular basis but this tastes way better than the K&K beers I remember doing all those years ago.

I put it down to temp control, good yeast and better sanitation methods.


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## jackgym (30/1/17)

Beefy said:


> Jumping back into the homebrew fray after a long absence, it seems to me that a LOT has changed for the better over the past few years:
> 1) Kits have improved. The new top-end Coopers kits have a lot more fresh hop character. The Amber Ale and English Bitter are both particularly good.
> 2) The products available to us have improved. Better sanitation with products like StarSan, new dry and liquid yeast strains, and improved availability of specialty grain and new-world hops can give kit and extract brews a lot more of that all-grain 'freshness'.
> 3) Kits'n'bits recipes have improved. The English Bitter based Porter is *so* incredibly good.
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree, Beefy.
I've brewed nothing but kits and just adding extra hops (either boiled or dry, or both) for different recipes and all have been excellent beers.
In fact, when I'm forced to drink at the Club the beer is thin and tastes like crap.


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## professional_drunk (31/3/17)

I've been doing AG for years and life has recently got in the way and I needed a way to fill the keg. I brewed up a coopers pilsner + a tin of coopers light extract and was quite pleasantly surprised by how well it turned out. Doesn't have the twang I remember when I tried kits many years ago. Definitely not as good as my all grain brews. The malt flavour seems off like could be not fresh. Not sure how to describe it. But if you balance the hit to quality vs how little effort I put into it, I think it was worth it. Will definitely look to do more kits when life gets busy.


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## laxation (12/4/17)

Aussie Mick said:


> Thanks Cliffo, I'm a plumber and buy them from Reece at $44 plus GST. Now I know I am not being ripped off.
> 
> Anyone thinking of trying a kitv as an experiment, I can highly recommend the Hop Slam USA recipe on the Coopers site. Hands down the best brew I have produced to date.
> 
> ...


Only just found this thread now... but a while back I bought 3x those Thomas Coopers IPA tins from Dans when they were on sale ($15 for the kit and a box of malt - should have bought more!)

One brew I screwed up and got an infection. Second brew was the best beer I've ever brewed by a long way. This was just with the tin, tin yeast, 1kg malt and 500g dex and then bottled.
Have just finished fermenting the 3rd tin and it went into the keg yesterday. Really looking forward to trying one off tap!

Anyway my point is... I think this might just be a really nice tin of beer.

I'm keen to try the hop slam for sure


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## laxation (19/4/17)

Aussie Mick said:


> I made a few changes. I used .5 kg LDM and .5 kg dried wheat malt, then 30g each of Cascade, Amarillo and Centannial. It was tasting very bitter at casking stage, 2 days later it had blossomed into one of the best beers I have tasted in this hemisphere


Keen to try this. When did you add the hops?


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## Aussie Mick (20/4/17)

Hi Laxation

I just checked my notes and unfortunately, I didn't write down when I added the hops. 

I can only presume that I dry hopped them on about day 4 of fermentation...... but maybe I boiled some up with the LDM......sorry, not much help I know.

I have actually just now racked off another of these. This time I used 

1x Brew IPA
1 kg LDM
2x sachet of Coopers yeast (its all I had at the time)

I then dry hopped about 15 gms of each hops (same three) on day 4, and I have transferred the hops into the secondary (racking) fermenter.

It is tasting pretty good


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## jackgym (22/4/17)

daveHQ said:


> You'll be surprised how much better it'll be using good practices!
> 
> It'll still have the kit taste, but it'll be drinkable


What's the kit taste?


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## PaulG79 (11/5/17)

On 'that kit taste'... I just got back into brewing after a year or so off, thought I didn't have the room at my new place but got tired of paying through the nose for drinkable beer. $100 for a carton of Newstead IPA was the point where I thought 'not any more'

Anyhow, I'm starting to wonder if 'that kit taste' needs to be re-branded as 'that Coopers taste'. I've been reading through all the forum posts on kit taste and twang and K+K being shit and thinking back on all the brews I've done in the past, the only ones I remember having 'that kit taste' were high ferment temp from before I got my fridge, and anything Coopers. It was a while ago now so my memory might be hazy but the first couple brews I tried after I inherited my kit from a friend's brother didn't have any of those issues and they weren't Coopers.

Recently I put down a Craft Series Bewitched amber ale, first brew for a long time. Temp control and sanitation are fine. Haven't let it mature as much as I should, but the tester beers have all had that initial smack of homebrew followed by too much sweetness in the flavour profile. But the more of it I drink and the more I think about it, seems to me it's not kit twang. It's something to do with that signature Coopers flavour that comes through in most of their beers, a kind of malty sweetness with a sharp bitterness over the top. Coopers green - best place to taste the bitterness - Coopers Mild - the malty sweet flavour. 

Starting to think maybe I just don't like Coopers beer as much as I thought I did. Only thing I haven't tried yet is switching to US-05 yeast, I'm hoping this might help those flavours to blend a bit better or failing that at least dry out the sweetness a bit. Got a few cans left, and if that doesn't work I'm switching to those Mangrove Jack craft pouches. 

Have to say, none of the kits I've brewed have been particularly fantastic, but that's not the same as 'that kit taste' it seems to me.


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## Grott (11/5/17)

Welcome PaulG79.
IMO I find that Coopers is quite drinkable compared to the general commercial crap brews on pub taps or compared to $100 cartons you mention. I do find that improvements can be made to a Coopers tin by - not using enhancer packs or glucose and light liquid malt instead, fermenting for 14 days at 18 to 20 degrees, 4 weeks min bottled or 2 weeks after carbonation in a keg.
They say a change of yeast further improves but I'm happy with what's under the lid. Also I only brew the Coopers International or Thomas Coopers series as the basic brews are fairly weak for my liking.
Cheers


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## earle (11/5/17)

Pretty sure that the Bewitched Amber Ale is made by coopers - just labelled as Mr Beer.


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## PaulG79 (11/5/17)

Thanks Grott  yeah I should've mentioned, I know Bewitched is Coopers, I got the craft kit because I thought my fridge was too small for my old tubs but realised after a while that the economy isn't very good... so i bashed the fridge around a bit and now the big fermenter fits 

Also, I don't mind the taste. I'd go so far as to say I like it, apart from that home brew smell I get opening the first one (of the night). It's strong too and has a much better flavour than Ruby Tuesday [swill] It's more that, after a while, it just tastes like coopers? Doesn't matter what kit it is, after a couple of tallies all I can taste is Coopers - might just be me. I wonder if their proprietary yeast strains create that 'Coopers taste'?

I always ferment for 2 weeks at the temp you mention, although I've never tried the liquid extracts, just the dried stuff. I feel like the yeast must have something to do with the way my beers finish too. I was reading a US homebrew site (can't remember which one) where an expert guy was saying most home brewers massively under pitch their beers. I think there might be something in that, since the beer I've had the most consistent success with was the Lawnmower Lager recipe, and I think that's because it's so simple the yeast doesn't have to do much. I've tried a few other styles using the kit yeast and they just don't ferment out properly. Even after months of cellaring the old Coopers IPA tasted like it had honey in it.

Next step: try the yeast, if that doesn't work, I'll give the liquid extracts a go. Bummer you can't get them at Big W


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## Grott (11/5/17)

Join the Coopers site and you'll find you get discount on all Cooper's products. If you can bulk buy you can have free delivery each month ( notification sent if you register you email address) for purchases over $80 or sometimes $100. It's worth it for the discount, selection of products and delivery to the door.


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## PaulG79 (11/5/17)

Thanks mate, that sounds like a plan. I've got a few experiments I'm gonna do, basically looking for a simple kit I can have going in the background all the time before I get more into experimenting with grains and stuff. I don't care if it's the 'instant coffee' of beer. If I'm paying $10 for a carton I'll take it 

I did have a question for the experienced K+K brewers out there, does anyone else get that home brew smell and sometimes taste? I'm trying to narrow this down - it's not off cidery flavours, it's not high temp flavours, it's not infection, it's not old can taste. But it's still there. It's that 'I know this is homebrew' smell/taste. If it's a fact of life for non-AG brewers I'm ok with that, but I'm keen to hear other ppl's experiences, just so I'm not endlessly experimenting with something I'm not going to get results on. Maybe it is old can taste, that's probably something I'm not sure of. I know all the others back to front, haha. But then what counts as an old can?

cheers

edit: there's a tonne of info on here about this already, seems like there's a consensus, barring any weird and wonderful tricks people might have


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## damoninja (11/5/17)

Nothing wrong with throwing together a kit for whatever reason you might have. 

I usually brew all grain when I need beer and have time. 

If I need beer and have no time, it's a kit. The last one I did I needed for a camping trip with 2 weeks to brew/ferment/carb so a kit it was and it turned out to be brilliant, so much so I wouldn't even bother brewing an AG version.


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## mtb (11/5/17)

PaulG79 said:


> does anyone else get that home brew smell and sometimes taste?


I've heard plenty of speculation that it was due to the can/bag leaching its own flavours into its contents. Mangrove Jacks pouches never leached such flavours in my experience, but then, I only spent a few months on kits before going AG so I might've just gotten lucky.


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## Grott (11/5/17)

I believe it's the maltodextrin (corn syrup) in Coopers enhancer packs or other made up boosters for tin products that give that "tang" effect, sort of tinny feel. I don't get it with malts so I'm happy with that.


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## laxation (11/5/17)

The last few kits I have done (by using recipes off the Coopers site) have been amazing.

Some home brews I think I know what you're talking about, but using better malts, yeast and hops really makes a good beer.

The Thomas Coopers IPA is fantastic.


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## PaulG79 (11/5/17)

grott said:


> I believe it's the maltodextrin (corn syrup) in Coopers enhancer packs or other made up boosters for tin products that give that "tang" effect, sort of tinny feel. I don't get it with malts so I'm happy with that.


That's funny if it's true, cos the Bewitched is the only brew I've ever done without any additions (think the low volume of the craft tub means you don't need them as much) and it still had that taste.





laxation said:


> The last few kits I have done (by using recipes off the Coopers site) have been amazing.
> 
> Some home brews I think I know what you're talking about, but using better malts, yeast and hops really makes a good beer.
> 
> The Thomas Coopers IPA is fantastic.



Good to know! That's my next brew  I've heard the thing about the can leaching flavours too, but I don't know about that... I mean it doesn't happen with kidney beans so why would it happen with beer? The age is supposedly a big factor. I'm going to try with more yeast to start with and see how it goes.


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## laxation (11/5/17)

I'd recommend trying a recipe from here if you're using a Coopers kit.
http://store.coopers.com.au/recipes/index/list/section/ale

I'm pretty keen to try this one http://store.coopers.com.au/recipes/index/view/id/102/


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## PaulG79 (11/5/17)

Looks good. I've got to learn what to do with hops. I'm keen to find a straight K+K setup that doesn't suck though, cos really once you're buying better yeast, hops, liquid malts, etc etc the sums stop adding up. I mean some of the sums I've done, you'd only be a few bucks shy of fresh wort prices, and I'd been hoping to keep the costs a bit lower than that. Mainly cos I'm not working at the moment, until next year. Hobbywise, there are so many interesting options I'm sure I'll end up doing some AG stuff eventually.


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## jackgym (11/5/17)

A return to kits? I've never left them. :chug:
I reckon the so-called twang and "kit taste" is all in their imagination.
The only time I got that was when brewing years ago without temperature control.
Not sure if Coopers has a particular taste as against others because I've only brewed Coopers.
I mostly always brew ales and use US-05 yeast because the yeast on the tin is a bit short on quantity.
But Coopers yeast is fine if you use 2 packets. It's good quality.
The "straight off the shelf" kits I've brewed are Family Secret and Inkeepers Daughter. 
Otherwise I use Australian Pale Ale as a base with added hops for different varieties of beer such as 150 Lashes..
Always use LDM (light dry malt) instead of brew enhancers for better body and taste.
Tomorrow I'm putting down a Brew A IPa which I haven't tried, but good reports from this forum.
The brews I've mentioned are from the newer Coopers kits except the APA. They cost a bit more but are well hopped.
I don't see any reason to move to all grain and be tied to the boiler for 4 hours when the kits are great beers.

By the way, I didn't get that gut by drinking pissy Corona or Crownies. :blink: :beerbang:


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## Grott (11/5/17)

Like all things it depends on what finances are available, so if you can put up with " that taste" issue you have with kit beers - A tin, an enhancer, supplied yeast and you have a good brew (60 Stubbies) for less than 50 cents a stubby. So work out how much you want to spend on a brew and improve things accordingly.


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## laxation (11/5/17)

PaulG79 said:


> Looks good. I've got to learn what to do with hops. I'm keen to find a straight K+K setup that doesn't suck though, cos really once you're buying better yeast, hops, liquid malts, etc etc the sums stop adding up. I mean some of the sums I've done, you'd only be a few bucks shy of fresh wort prices, and I'd been hoping to keep the costs a bit lower than that. Mainly cos I'm not working at the moment, until next year. Hobbywise, there are so many interesting options I'm sure I'll end up doing some AG stuff eventually.


http://store.coopers.com.au/recipes/index/view/id/47/

Try this one then. I have done it twice (once bottled, once kegged) and loved it both times!

Since then though, I've done my first 2 brews adding hops and really think this recipe would benefit from a bit of hops.


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## PaulG79 (12/5/17)

jackgym said:


> A return to kits? I've never left them. :chug:
> I reckon the so-called twang and "kit taste" is all in their imagination.
> The only time I got that was when brewing years ago without temperature control.
> Not sure if Coopers has a particular taste as against others because I've only brewed Coopers.
> ...


Haha it is an epic gut. Your posts about K+K give me hope! And yeah to be honest, even my kits that were brewed without temp control in Brisbane in October were better than Corona or Crownies. Rank piss. Seriously don't understand why anyone likes Corona, it's probably one of the worst beers I've tasted. 

I'm going to give the US-05 a go just because I'm not 100% sure I like the taste of the coopers yeast all that much. Not that it's bad, I just think it's what's causing the flavour I don't always love. It's not a kit thing I don't think cos I've got all the variables down. How long do you carb/cellar the brews for before you drink them? I normally have trouble waiting any longer than 10 days or 2 weeks, and I'm sure that doesn't help, although I've kept some for months in the past and I don't think it did much to improve them. I had a batch each of the lager, draught, and the Pale left before I moved house last year, didn't have anywhere to store them so I gave them all to a mate and helped him finish a bunch. They'd all been in the garage for a couple months and they all tasted the same, and not that great. No temp control tho so I put it down to that.

Thanks for the advice guys! Might give the liquid malt a go too, although I've read varying things about that.


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## Grott (12/5/17)

Drinking your bottled brews 10 days to 2 weeks in is not really giving them a chance to mature/age and allowing yeast to settle out. This could be part of your taste problem and you can not really compare with those 2 months old as you stated temp control was poor. Try and build up some stock (it can be hard) but run 2 fermenters if you can a week apart so you have a batch each week. (leaving each for 14 days). When I bottled I found 6 to 8 weeks was a good time to drink most brews other than stouts, mature longer. Running 2 fermenters, you can get to this by putting a third aside and building stocks up.

Now that you have temp control make your suggested changes like yeast to see how things improve.


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## jackgym (12/5/17)

grott said:


> Drinking your bottled brews 10 days to 2 weeks in is not really giving them a chance to mature/age and allowing yeast to settle out. This could be part of your taste problem and you can not really compare with those 2 months old as you stated temp control was poor. Try and build up some stock (it can be hard) but run 2 fermenters if you can a week apart so you have a batch each week. (leaving each for 14 days). When I bottled I found 6 to 8 weeks was a good time to drink most brews other than stouts, mature longer. Running 2 fermenters, you can get to this by putting a third aside and building stocks up.
> 
> Now that you have temp control make your suggested changes like yeast to see how things improve.


Agree, try and let your beer age for 4 weeks before drinking. 
Another aspect, I've found if you dry hop, the extra hoppiness starts to diminish after 5-6 weeks, 
so that brew needs to be drunk fresh, no longer than 4 weeks if you want the full effect.
It's all a learning curve.


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## abyss (13/5/17)

I'm thinking that a lot of kit Brewers my self included started experimenting with more malt, better yeast, temp controll, cold crashing etc but have not hopped enough to compensate for the extra un-hopped ingredients 
I love my kit beer and brew it with care but at the end of the day it would be shit without dry hopping.


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## wereprawn (13/5/17)

PaulG79 said:


> Looks good. I've got to learn what to do with hops. I'm keen to find a straight K+K setup that doesn't suck though, cos really once you're buying better yeast, hops, liquid malts, etc etc the sums stop adding up. I mean some of the sums I've done, you'd only be a few bucks shy of fresh wort prices, and I'd been hoping to keep the costs a bit lower than that. Mainly cos I'm not working at the moment, until next year. Hobbywise, there are so many interesting options I'm sure I'll end up doing some AG stuff eventually.


If you want to give AG a go, have a squiz at this thread. Comparative beers made with AG ingredients are cheaper if using Aussie base malts than kits n bits brews.http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/38674-move-to-all-grain-for-thirty-bucks/


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## PaulG79 (14/5/17)

Thanks wereprawn I'll have a look . I guess if you use BIAB and buy recipe kits it can't be that hard.

Update on my k+K experiments, I put down a Coopers Craft IPA a couple weeks back, the Diablo, and added 500gms of LDM. I only waited 10 days to bottle it and tried one after a week, so still new, but damn! I nearly fell off the couch, it was hands down the best homebrew I've made by a WIDE margin. I was a bit shocked, couldn't believe how good it is. No weird tastes, and strong with a good flavour. It sorta tasted like a young, cheap version of the hyper expensive IPA I sometimes buy only it was what, $23 for a carton instead of $100  and that was with the kit yeast and no extra hops.

I wonder, if one of the variables no one talks about much is just the quality of the kit. Maybe some of them are just shit brews to start with and that has something to do with the finished flavour. Or maybe the malt masks it.



abyss said:


> I'm thinking that a lot of kit Brewers my self included started experimenting with more malt, better yeast, temp controll, cold crashing etc but have not hopped enough to compensate for the extra un-hopped ingredients
> I love my kit beer and brew it with care but at the end of the day it would be shit without dry hopping.


I wonder about this too, like some of the recipes you see for straight Coopers kit tins have like a kilo and half of LDM, that's a hell of a lot of malt for the instant tin hops to cope with. How do you do dry hopping? I've got a phobia about opening the fermenter once the lid's on, got enough problems without sending out an invite to all the bacteria floating around. Can you get ok results steeping or boiling and adding at the start of the ferment?


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## PaulG79 (14/5/17)

jackgym said:


> A return to kits? I've never left them. :chug:
> I reckon the so-called twang and "kit taste" is all in their imagination.
> The only time I got that was when brewing years ago without temperature control.
> Not sure if Coopers has a particular taste as against others because I've only brewed Coopers.
> ...


You'll have to let us know how that Brew A goes, I have a suspicion it's probably the same stuff as the Diablo tin, if so you're in for a treat. I'm switching back to the 23 litres brews mostly from now on so I'm keen to give the Brew A a go too. The craft fermenter is so easy to use, but really, 8.5 litres is not a lot of brew for what you pay for the tins.


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## Grott (14/5/17)

Good to hear about your success. IMO why not do a couple of these brews first to get you processes stable and then start to experiment with hops etc.


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## abyss (14/5/17)

I normally have my hops in sanitised bags or stockings etc and open the fv and drop them in. With flowers I put a handful of marbles in the bag so that it eventually sinks.
I mainly dry hop because you can get heaps more flavour and aroma with a nice but not overpowering bitterness at the back of the throat.


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## PaulG79 (14/5/17)

grott said:


> Good to hear about your success. IMO why not do a couple of these brews first to get you processes stable and then start to experiment with hops etc.


Yeah I'm not rushing out to get into hops any time soon, just seems to be so many different ways of hopping, curious about what the best methods are. I've got a few tins lying around so a few more experiments to do. Gonna make a batch of the lager. Used to do the lawnmower lager recipe a bit for something light and fizzy for when you feel like an after work beer. Might try that again but sub the BE1 for the BE3. Problem with those craft style beers, they taste great but they're usually so alcoholic they just aren't always that practical


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## PaulG79 (14/5/17)

abyss said:


> I normally have my hops in sanitised bags or stockings etc and open the fv and drop them in. With flowers I put a handful of marbles in the bag so that it eventually sinks.
> I mainly dry hop because you can get heaps more flavour and aroma with a nice but not overpowering bitterness at the back of the throat.


so if you did them on a boil, you'd get more of the bitterness but not much of the flavour or aroma? just curious. Once I get my basics down I want to try to make a few hoppier session IPA type beers that don't require a sickkie the next day :lol:


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## abyss (14/5/17)

Yea I used to steep those little 15g teabags in hot water and to me they were too bitter and at the time I thought the head was not so good.
After the very first time I dry hopped with one of those tea bags I was amazed how much nicer my beers were. Soon after I started buying different varieties in larger amounts as well as growing the suckers.
If you are kegging and find that twang just add more hops and make it go away.


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## PaulG79 (19/5/17)

grott said:


> Drinking your bottled brews 10 days to 2 weeks in is not really giving them a chance to mature/age and allowing yeast to settle out. This could be part of your taste problem and you can not really compare with those 2 months old as you stated temp control was poor. Try and build up some stock (it can be hard) but run 2 fermenters if you can a week apart so you have a batch each week. (leaving each for 14 days). When I bottled I found 6 to 8 weeks was a good time to drink most brews other than stouts, mature longer. Running 2 fermenters, you can get to this by putting a third aside and building stocks up.
> 
> Now that you have temp control make your suggested changes like yeast to see how things improve.


Grott, think you were right, I admit I doubted your wisdom on this particular brew cos it was so nasty, but just shy of 4 weeks and it's a completely different beer now. I had a couple last Friday, emergency situation and had no alternative, and it was still pretty bad then, but now the carbonation has improved and that home brew taste has faded well into the background. I actually can't even detect it except a whiff when I first crack a bottle. So from now on, I'm not touching them for 4 weeks no exceptions!

Well unless I make the mistake of buying Carlsberg again. That was bad. First time in a very long time I couldn't drink more than one. Awful, hands down one of the worst beers I've ever tasted!

Edit: I should say I'm not a huge fan of this kit in terms of the flavour, but I'm loving it tonight since I know it's been a success.


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## Grott (19/5/17)

Great news. Don't forget you can add to kits with hops and malts, change yeast etc. What I like is it takes **** all time to put down a good brew, you don't need a lot of room and the clean up is simple. I always think you should have a brew to drink so once you have drinking stock experiment and go for the exotic.


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## Jack of all biers (19/5/17)

cliffo said:


> Has anyone else gone back to brew a K&K years later and found it was better than you recalled?


Yep, just recently. My first kegged beer too, so going forward and backward at the same time (but not backward in taste). A mate, who brews K+K, wanted to brew a "Craft" beer (hate the term personally) after a recent trip to Melbourne pubs converted him from the plainer beers in life. Anyway, I recommended DrSmurto's Golden Ale, as it gets great feed back though I'd not tried it. Well to guide him through I bought the ingredients as well and gave the kit version a go. Of course years on since my kit days (I used to kit brew in 2001 and did a couple on my return to Aus in 2006) I had improved in my methods somewhat, okay I have temp control down pat. The beer is as good as I have tasted many an AG, so nothing wrong with K+K. And that was my mates who has no temp control (fermented BRY-97 at 22C) and is not to finicky with his processes. Mine was good too. 

Keep it up fellas, fermentation process is more important than the wort creation method. Add a few 'fresh' ingredients to the mix to spice your beers up, but concentrate on good sanitation and fermentation methods. :beerbang:


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## PaulG79 (20/5/17)

grott said:


> Great news. Don't forget you can add to kits with hops and malts, change yeast etc. What I like is it takes **** all time to put down a good brew, you don't need a lot of room and the clean up is simple. I always think you should have a brew to drink so once you have drinking stock experiment and go for the exotic.


I got the craft ROTM from Coopers, so that'll be a fun experiment. And you're right, it really isn't a lot of work for very acceptable results. I've noticed too since I've got the cleaning and temp down, the kit yeast isn't that bad really. It does the job providing you're not trying to brew high strength exotic recipes. I'll keep the kit yeast and use it for the more basic brews and keep my US-05 for the more advanced stuff. The point of the experiment was to see if K+K can produce something drinkable with better methods, and the results speak for themselves!


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## PaulG79 (20/5/17)

you're right Jack, 'craft beer' is just beer, the stuff everyone enjoyed for centuries/millenia before the big megacorp swillmeisters came along and made it shit. We here in Oz haven't quite caught up with NZ/USA commercial wise, but I don't care anymore since I can make decent stuff at home for far cheaper anyway. I've had some truly awful, shameful Australian beers in the last few years and it makes you wonder how they do it. With all that equipment and money, how can you make something so bad when I can make something better in the shed with a tin of evaporated extract? I'm looking at you, fake supermarket craft brewers. Coming back from NZ I feel ashamed to be an Aussie beer wise.

I'm keen to put down a few mid strength kits though, can get a bit punishing drinking good beer all the time, cos generally 'good' = high ABV


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## Shadime (23/5/17)

Jack of all biers said:


> Yep, just recently. My first kegged beer too, so going forward and backward at the same time (but not backward in taste). A mate, who brews K+K, wanted to brew a "Craft" beer (hate the term personally) after a recent trip to Melbourne pubs converted him from the plainer beers in life. Anyway, I recommended DrSmurto's Golden Ale, as it gets great feed back though I'd not tried it. Well to guide him through I bought the ingredients as well and gave the kit version a go. Of course years on since my kit days (I used to kit brew in 2001 and did a couple on my return to Aus in 2006) I had improved in my methods somewhat, okay I have temp control down pat. The beer is as good as I have tasted many an AG, so nothing wrong with K+K. And that was my mates who has no temp control (fermented BRY-97 at 22C) and is not to finicky with his processes. Mine was good too.
> 
> Keep it up fellas, fermentation process is more important than the wort creation method. Add a few 'fresh' ingredients to the mix to spice your beers up, but concentrate on good sanitation and fermentation methods. :beerbang:


What kit did you use for DrSmurtos as the only sparkling ale Coopers has is the Inn Keepers Daughter?

thanks


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## Jack of all biers (23/5/17)

Shadime said:


> What kit did you use for DrSmurtos as the only sparkling ale Coopers has is the Inn Keepers Daughter?
> 
> thanks


I used the final version DrSmurto posted about in a 2013 post (maybe on Adelaide brewers, or possibly here. Can remember, but as below and I used Caramunich II, 30gm Amarillo at 0min and Lallemand BRY-97 yeast, but otherwise as he recommended below.)

_The final kit version I made;
1 can Coopers Lager
1 can Coopers Wheat Malt
250g crystal (caramalt, caramunich, carabohemian, light/medium english crystal)
20g Amarillo @ 15 and 0 (sometimes listed as 15g @ 10, 5 and dry hop, i prefer the former)
US-05
Topped up to 20L (not 23L)._


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## Shadime (26/5/17)

Jack of all biers said:


> I used the final version DrSmurto posted about in a 2013 post (maybe on Adelaide brewers, or possibly here. Can remember, but as below and I used Caramunich II, 30gm Amarillo at 0min and Lallemand BRY-97 yeast, but otherwise as he recommended below.)
> 
> _The final kit version I made;
> 1 can Coopers Lager
> ...


Thanks for the information, Is the Amerillo at 0 for dry hop or added on flame out, if on flame out how long is it added for?
Also is the wheat malt added to the boil or just the steeped crystal?

Thanks


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## BrockHops (26/5/17)

I've been hearing about this Dr Smurto Golden Ale for ages, so I thought it'd be rude not to do one.
Until I went to my lhbs and they were missing some bits.. so.. being the impatient type I did a quick substitution..

DrSmurto's Golden Ale - kit version
1 can Thomas Coopers Sparkling Ale
1 can Coopers Wheat Malt
250g Caramunich
50g chocolate 
15g Cascade @ 15 min
15g Cascade @ flameout
US05 rehydrated

After 9 days, (FG 1.010)
Dry hop 
25g Amarillo (back in stock this week )
15g Citra

So totally changed it 

Anyway...


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## Jack of all biers (26/5/17)

Shadime said:


> Thanks for the information, Is the Amerillo at 0 for dry hop or added on flame out, if on flame out how long is it added for?
> Also is the wheat malt added to the boil or just the steeped crystal?
> 
> Thanks


20 gm boiled for 15 min, then 20gm at flameout then cool as best you can. Pot in sink of cold water etc


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## Ronwales (28/9/17)

I'm brewing the coopers brew "a" recipe at the moment found in the strong section in the coopers recipes. I was wondering if anyone has tried yet. Thanks


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## Hambone (30/9/17)

Wow didn't know about that Coopers site. Just had a look due to this thread. Wouldn't love to give a few of those a go. Thanks fellas.
Cheers Hamo


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## Hambone (30/9/17)

Hambone said:


> Wow didn't know about that Coopers site. Just had a look due to this thread. Wouldn't love to give a few of those a go. Thanks fellas.
> Cheers Hamo


I meant I would love to give a few of those a go. Too much Belgian Trippel


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## Sheebz81 (30/9/17)

I can't say I have ever brewed anything other than kits and bits recipes. Only been brewing for about 12 months so I am far from an expert, however for what it's worth I would have to say that the best brew I have come across so far is the James Squire Golden Ale Clone from the Morgan's website. 1 can of Stockman's Draught, 1 tin (1.5kg) of the liquid master malt beer enhancer, 12g Amarillo steeped for 10 mins, US-05 Yeast plus another 12g Amarillo dry hopped on day 4. Drinking now and going down an absolute treat 5 weeks after bottling  Little Creatures Pale Ale Clone currently in the fermenter.... Looking forward to that in summer!!! Thinking that the Hop Slam IPA might be the next brew I put down.... Sounds tasty!


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## Yuz (30/9/17)

Just my observation as a noob - so far I'm happy with the convenience and basics, which I tweak a little to get the "taste" for the whole process... I haven't done a "kit" as such, nor followed a recipe nor made a "craft beer" yet. And prob won't 
I'll attempt to do a partial mash when I'm a bit more confident but with AG I'm not so sure - gets too involving I think?
I would imagine the product and technological improvements so far plus all the info at hand does play a part?


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## Ronwales (1/10/17)

Yuz said:


> Just my observation as a noob - so far I'm happy with the convenience and basics, which I tweak a little to get the "taste" for the whole process... I haven't done a "kit" as such, nor followed a recipe nor made a "craft beer" yet. And prob won't
> I'll attempt to do a partial mash when I'm a bit more confident but with AG I'm not so sure - gets too involving I think?
> I would imagine the product and technological improvements so far plus all the info at hand does play a part?


I think as long as u enjoy what you brew keep it up. I've been brewing cans for about 2 yrs now and still love them


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## HaveFun (22/10/17)

Is AG brewing cheaper thank KK ?

Im new to home brew and so far i only have a kegging system. I was thinking to start with KK and move to AG but after i read this post.. for what to spend $1500 for a AG system if they KK are that good  i will try first a few before i decide if i move to AG.

What you guys are thinking of the fresh wort kits ?

Cheers

Cheers
Stefan


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## laxation (23/10/17)

AG is _sort of_ cheaper than KK?

The problem is that it seems every weekend I spend another 20-50 bucks buying some shit, and then every month or two a few hundred bucks buying some bigger shit...

But if you buy everything in bulk you can do really good brews fairly cheap.


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## Grott (23/10/17)

If you look at it purely in an economical way, all grain has a much longer pay back time in regards equipment (not including brew in a bag), water, heating source, cleaning, sanitising and your time. If you are time poor then kk wins hands down, if you don’t have a lot of cash then kk, if you can’t justify the spend then kk.


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## PaulG79 (11/11/17)

Looking back on this thread I'd have to say I've been doing Cooper's ROTM's for ages now and there hasn't been a single one that didn't turn out good. Couple I didn't like as much, but that's to do with style not the fermenting process etc. 'kit taste' is a far distant memory, infact I think I was probably imagining it. It's just temp control and letting the brew bottle age for a decent amount of time. 

I'd be keen to get into BIAB one day just to show myself I can do it, and for the flexibility with recipes - also the vast majority of recipes out there are for AG and trying to convert them back to kit or extract just seems painful. But I don't have the room for the extra gear or the money, and SWMBO hates the smell from a long hop boil (I'm not much of a fan either TBH) so it's not really an option for me at this stage. 

But anyone who's wondering if you can make a decent kit + bits beer the answer is definitely YES YOU CAN and even with spec grains and hops and decent yeast it is insanely economical even compared to megaswill.


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## PaulG79 (11/11/17)

If you do a direct side by side comparison with an expensive craft beer the K+B brews obviously aren't as nice, but then they are so much cheaper that for me they win out.


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## Grott (11/11/17)

I’ve said this I think before but get a decent kit brew, eg Thomas Cooper range, brew with raw sugar or dextrose or whatever at the bottom of the “sugar chain” , don’t control cleanliness, sanitisation or fermentation temps then I’ll guarantee a shitty brew but substitute the “sugars” with a decent dry or liquid malt, be spot on with cleanliness, sanitisation and control fermentation temps then you’ll have a shit hot consumable brew. Change the yeast, add hops and your away to even better (if you wish)


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