# Style Of The Week 22/8/07 - Munich Dunkel



## Stuster (22/8/07)

It's still lager season so I thought we could talk about a darker lager style, Munich Dunkel, BJCP 4B.

A couple of links
All about beer article
German Beer Institute spiel


So what are your experiences with this style? Grains? Hops? Which yeast to use? Any dry yeast that will work with this style? Can this style be done by partial mashers? Kits and bits? Any commercial examples that you can recommend that are available in Australia?

Tell us all you know so we can make great beer. :chug: 



> 4B. Munich Dunkel
> 
> Aroma: Rich, Munich malt sweetness, like bread crusts (and sometimes toast.) Hints of chocolate, nuts, caramel, and/or toffee are also acceptable. No fruity esters or diacetyl should be detected, but a slight noble hop aroma is acceptable.
> 
> ...


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## jayse (22/8/07)

I think those guidelines almost say everything you need to know. That and tasting a few prime examples and your away.

A good chunk of weyermann munich II, around 5% weyermann caramunch II or a mix of different crystal and maybe even a tad of cararoma works pretty nicely.
Enough choc or whatever for the colour your after.

You could almost use any hop for the required bitterness but I've just stuck to hallertau.
I have used wyeast bavarian lager a couple times and once 34/70 both worked nicely, I'am sure theres even better yeasts again for this style maybe. 

Lovely rich, complex munich malt driven beer with a little toasted biscuit edges and some caramel, I think a little raisen crystal malt like flavour doesn't go astray and helps with the complexity, but as the guidelines say they can't be overdone.

Even though its a medium to medium full bodied beer I wouldn't mash to high with all that munich malt. 

Pretty good guidelines in the BJCP there making me thirsty for a few pints of dunkel right now.
German club in five anyone?


Jayse


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## Barry (22/8/07)

Good Day
One of my favorite styles. Always make two to three batches each winter. The basic recipe is at 
oz.craftbrewer.org/Recipes/
Make it using the same recipe each time with only a few variations usually due to malt availability.
I received an email last week from a brewer who used the recipe and won the gold medal at the Northern England Home Brewing Competition held in Leeds. Made me very happy but I can't promise such results to others who use it. 
Also I love the San Fran yeast for any malty lager. A very easy, forgiving yeast to use. :beer:


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## Maxt (22/8/07)

I had a stack of Munich 2 and left over hops that I needed to use up, so this was my first attempt (still have some in the keg now). Absolutely delicious

Recipe: Munich Dunklebastard
Brewer: matt
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Munich Dunkel
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 44.00 L 
Boil Size: 60.31 L
Estimated Color: 34.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 45.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
7.40 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 60.16 % 
4.20 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 34.15 % 
0.40 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 3.25 % 
0.30 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 2.44 % 
40.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 18.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Pearle [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 8.7 IBU 
40.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.00 %] (30 min) Hops 5.0 IBU 
40.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 7.6 IBU 
60.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 5.4 IBU 
1 Pkgs Southern German Lager (White Labs #WLP838) Yeast-La


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## Muggus (22/8/07)

Mmmmm I like Dunkels, only tried a couple of different ones in my time but all have been quite nice.
Attempted to brew a KK one myself last year, but it turned out too dry and not enough accentuation on the dark malts.


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## Duff (2/2/08)

Brewing this tomorrow which is pretty much based on Zainasheff & Palmer's receipe. Don't have any Carafa or Choc, so subbed CaraMunich II. 

Anyone else tried the Munich Dunkel receipe in Brewing Classic Styles?

Cheers.

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08-12 Munich Dunkel

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.20
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.45
Anticipated SRM: 13.4
Anticipated IBU: 22.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
95.1 8.75 kg. JWM Light Munich Australia 1.038 10
4.9 0.45 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 63

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
80.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Plug 4.10 20.3 60 min.
15.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Plug 4.10 2.3 20 min.


Yeast
-----

DCL Yeast S-189 SafLager German Lager


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## mika (2/2/08)

I'll preface this by saying, never brewed a Munich Dunkel, but it is on the list.
I do listen to Jamil's shows a fair bit though. He use the pale choc to get the toasty flavour into a beer and the Carafa is generally the carafa special to get the colour without any roastiness.
Subbing caramunich might not yield the desired results at least to my limited knowledge of the grain and style.


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## wessmith (2/2/08)

Duff said:


> Brewing this tomorrow which is pretty much based on Zainasheff & Palmer's receipe. Don't have any Carafa or Choc, so subbed CaraMunich II.
> 
> Anyone else tried the Munich Dunkel receipe in Brewing Classic Styles?
> 
> ...


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## newguy (2/2/08)

Duff,

I've brewed Dunkels before, but I've used 100% munich. Your recipe looks fine, but the flavouring hop addition may not be necessary as this style is straightforward malt driven. Your IBU level looks good too. It should be a good beer. Good luck with it.


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## Duff (2/2/08)

I did think about Roast Wheat as I have some but thought it might throw the colour and flavour out. Even at 2% the EBC was over. 

Unfortunately Gerard does not deliver to Port Douglas and the nearest HBS which carries specialities is about 2,000km away  

Will get some Pale Chocloate sent up (never used it before) to try and see the flavour difference between the two. I was hoping that only 5% CaraMunich would not provide too much residual sweetness.

Cheers.


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## Stuster (2/2/08)

I'd say go with the roast wheat, Duff. I did one a couple of years back and used Farbmalz (like Carafa basically) at only 1% and it turned out drinkable. It probably had a bit too much hopping in there so I'd say newguy is right that the flavour hop might not be necessary.

Gerard doesn't deliver here now either.


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## kabooby (2/2/08)

I have a done a few beers now with JW munich but have never gone above the 50% mark as that is wahat it states for the grain profile. I have always finished the grain bill with some pils.
How do they turn out with 90-100% munich? I love a good malty lager

Kabooby


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## kabooby (2/2/08)

This is the recipe I come up with the other day. Should I ditch the pils and use all munich?

Munich Dunkel 

Type: All Grain
Date: 31/01/2008 
Batch Size: 40.00 L
Brewer: Grant 
Boil Size: 45.79 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90min Equipment: Grants Equipment 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 45.45 % 
3.10 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 35.23 % 
0.80 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 9.09 % 
0.40 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (49.3 EBC) Grain 4.55 % 
0.30 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3.41 % 
0.10 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EBC) Grain 1.14 % 
0.10 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 1.14 % 
35.00 gm Magnum [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.1 IBU 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) Yeast-Lager 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.23 % 
Bitterness: 33.1 IBU 
Est Color: 41.1 EBC 

Cheers 

Kabooby


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## Weizguy (2/2/08)

kabooby said:


> I have a done a few beers now with JW munich but have never gone above the 50% mark as that is wahat it states for the grain profile. I have always finished the grain bill with some pils.
> How do they turn out with 90-100% munich? I love a good malty lager
> 
> Kabooby


Prob a bit too malty to be authentic...despite the BJCP guidelines. I have been reading recently re Altbiers and how they are best made without too much Munich malt. Mostly Munich malt will give U a Czech Dunkel, but U will have to change the hops and yeast. Great style, but!  

U can make it as a Munich Dunkel and enjoy it, but it might be a little too much to expect in to be "within the style".

Les's 2 cense.


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## newguy (3/2/08)

kabooby said:


> I have a done a few beers now with JW munich but have never gone above the 50% mark as that is wahat it states for the grain profile. I have always finished the grain bill with some pils.
> How do they turn out with 90-100% munich? I love a good malty lager



I'm not familiar with JW munich malt. I've brewed 100% munich dunkels using munich malt from a couple of different maltsters, Gambrinus and Cargill. They always turn out great. I understand the point of view of some people that think that 100% munich will make it too malty for the style, but to be honest in order to stand out in a competition, it really doesn't hurt if your beer is a bit too malty when entered in a malty style. You'd expect to brew a traditional bock or a doppelbock with 100% munich (or nearly 100%). The major difference in flavour between a bock made with all munich malt and a dunkel made the same way is in the hopping rate (slightly higher for the dunkel) and in the gravity (lower for the dunkel). These two factors are enough to make the beer seem even less malty/less munich malt-like.

All I can tell you is that I've done it, I'll continue to do it, and it works fine for my tastes. The munich malt available to me is very cheap - only $35 per 50 kg sack. My standard pale 2-row base malt is only $22. Since it's only a little more expensive than the base malt, my philosophy is "it's cheap, it tastes good, use it."

For what it's worth, I had a co-worker a few years back who was from Munich and he sampled my dunkel. He thought it compared very favourably to the dunkels he had sampled back in Germany. I guess I should also mention that the munich malt I use is a light munich, definitely not dark munich. I guess that since it's light I can get away with using up to 100% in a dunkel. I wouldn't be able to do that if it was dark.


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## mika (15/2/08)

> I guess that since it's light I can get away with using up to 100% in a dunkel.



How light ? EBC, SRM, Lovibond ?

JW = Joe White. Local Australian Maltster, not suprised you haven't heard of it on the international scale, it's cheap for a reason.

Edit: Damn keys on the board too close together.


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## newguy (15/2/08)

mika said:


> How light ? EBC, SRM, Lovibond ?
> 
> JW = Joe White. Local Australian Maltster, not suprised you haven't heard of it on the international scale, it's cheap for a reason.
> 
> Edit: Damn keys on the board too close together.



I've lost the original email with the malt analysis from the malt distributor, but I managed to find the colour of Cargill Munich here. 8-11 degrees Lovibond.


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## Duff (15/2/08)

mika said:


> How light ? EBC, SRM, Lovibond ?
> 
> JW = Joe White. Local Australian Maltster, not suprised you haven't heard of it on the international scale, it's cheap for a reason.
> 
> Edit: Damn keys on the board too close together.



Mika,

It's a bit of a dodgy picture, but this beer was 100% JW Light Munich which was bittered and flavoured with Centennial and Cascade. Good colour, 90 minute boil.

My Dunkel is fermenting ATM.

Cheers.


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## Thommo (15/2/08)

Save some of that one Duff, I'm flying up to Port Douglas on Monday!!!!! Looks a treat.


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## Duff (15/2/08)

Brewday with The Bunyip next weekend B) 

Cheers.


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## Duff (19/2/08)

Here it is. Great malt profile and aroma, however I think for next time I'll take newguy's suggestion and ditch the 20min Mittlefruh addition and just stick with one addition at 60min. The Hallertau is nice but next one will have Tettnanger. The Hallertau 20min addition adds just a touch too much hop flavour late.

Cheers.


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## kabooby (19/2/08)

Looks great Duff. How does it taste

My last brew was 50/50 JW light munich/JW trad ale

Split the batch and fermented one with WLP800 Pilsner yeast and the other with a WYeast octoberfest lager blend.

The pilsner came out great buy the end of the keg  

Drinking the octoberfest now and it has a real honey taste to it. Maybe the yeast accentuated the munich more. Prefered the pilsner though

Kabooby


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## drsmurto (27/2/08)

Thinking about making a few german beers after my run of ESBs ends.....

What yeasts are appropriate for this style? Would using the weizen dry yeast be out of style. should i be using a germna lager yeast instead? I have some wyeast 2000 and 1007?

Having read the guidelines, decoctions are common so would a touch of melanoidin be out of place with a bit of choc for colour and the rest munich?

Looking back at my first 14 AGs, its dominated by APAs and ESBs so its time to step out of the comfort zone.


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## Stuster (27/2/08)

A lager yeast is definitely the right one for a Munich Dunkel. The confusion is that a dunkelweizen can sometimes be called simply a dunkel too, and that one uses a wheat beer yeast. 1007 might get you close actually, but in theory you do need a lager yeast.

Definitely good to try brewing different things IMO. Go for it! :icon_chickcheers:


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## therook (27/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Thinking about making a few german beers after my run of ESBs ends.....
> 
> What yeasts are appropriate for this style? Would using the weizen dry yeast be out of style. should i be using a germna lager yeast instead? I have some wyeast 2000 and 1007?
> 
> ...



Good timing Dr, i am going to try one of these in another month and am looking at using Wy 2124 yeast as i can also use it for Pilsners, Shwarz, octoberfests and Helles all of which i want to brew over winter.

Rook


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (27/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Thinking about making a few german beers after my run of ESBs ends.....
> 
> What yeasts are appropriate for this style? Would using the weizen dry yeast be out of style. should i be using a germna lager yeast instead? I have some wyeast 2000 and 1007?
> 
> ...



Dr S, Whitelabs 833 or Wyeast 2206. No other choices really if you want a full on malty dunkel. YMMV!

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (27/2/08)

Mmmmm...... Dunkel :icon_drool2: 

Warren -


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## Stuster (27/2/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Mmmmm...... Dunkel :icon_drool2:
> 
> Warren -



So, recipe, dear boy. Chop, chop. h34r:


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## warrenlw63 (27/2/08)

Actually never made one Stuster. Yes I should be horsewhipped. :blink: 

My experiences with them are from a Munich trip where they're all basically great. I particularly liked Augustiner's and particularly Ayinger's. Hacker Pschorr ain't too bad either. Plan to make one sooner rather than later.

Was actually contemplating a Czech Dark Lager or Dunkel as my next beer... Hmmm. B) 

Warren -


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## troydo (27/2/08)

ive seen a few dunkle recipes with decotions... is there a way to avoid that for us lowly newbs or is it simple enough?

Troy


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## Stuster (27/2/08)

Well, I've made one but never had a 'real' one. Maybe I should be horsewhipped too.  

I may give this another go this winter. I do have some Tettnang in my stockpile.


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## therook (27/2/08)

Stuster said:


> Well, I've made one but never had a 'real' one. Maybe I should be horsewhipped too.
> 
> I may give this another go this winter. I do have some Tettnang in my stockpile.



Maybe you and warren should whip each other :unsure: 

Rook


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## warrenlw63 (27/2/08)

therook said:


> Maybe you and warren should whip each other :unsure:
> 
> Rook



To quote Groucho Marx... I'd horsewhip him if I only had a horse.  

Troydo. I guess it's like most (but not all) German Lagers. Decoction would be nice and authentic but you could make something less challenging by subbing a bit of melanoidin malt.

Warren -


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## drsmurto (27/2/08)

Seen one suggestion of 17% melanoidin in a dunkel.......... Link


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## therook (27/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Seen one suggestion of 17% melanoidin in a dunkel.......... Link



This is from Jamil's show

5.5kg Munich malt
170 grams Carafa Special 2

mashed at 68c

3 hop additions

WLP 833 fermented at 10c

Doesn't get much easier than that

Rook


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## newguy (27/2/08)

Troydo said:


> ive seen a few dunkle recipes with decotions... is there a way to avoid that for us lowly newbs or is it simple enough?



If you can get your hands on light munich malt, anywhere from 70-100% of that along with pils or even 2 row for the balance will come out close enough.

If you do try a decoction, I'll warn you right now that it will be frustrating the first time. When I tried it the first time, my normal brew day was 6 hours long; that more than doubled to 13. I was pissed off, discouraged, and tired but the beer turned out fantastic.

You don't have to do a full triple decoction to get the full decoction flavour. A single decoction will suffice, either from the protein rest to the sacch rest or sacch rest to mashout. For the protein -> sacch rest, pull about 1/3rd of the thickest part of the mash (volume-wise) and for the sacch -> mashout, pull 1/3rd of the thinnest. Dough in at about 1.3 - 1.5l/lb, which amounts to 2.9 - 3.3l/kg. If you use 15l of water to dough in, pull 5l for the decoction. Put the decoction on your stove/burner/whatever to boil. If the decoction is thick, stir like mad so that it doesn't scorch. Once it starts to really boil well, you don't have to stir as there is enough movement to avoid scorching. You don't have to stir a thin decoction nearly as much. Let the decoction boil for 5 minutes, then dump it back into the mash.

I've done a lot of decoctions (around 15-20 or so), but I stopped doing them quite a few years ago. Not because I don't like the results, but because my system has changed and decoctions are now difficult for me to do. From my experience, the 1/3rd rule is enough to hit the next target quite easily. The biggest thing to remember is to not get too worked up if you miss your temperature target. The beer will still come out fine.


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## kevnlis (27/2/08)

I have only done 3 decoctions, but it would seem to me that doing a thin decoction to hit your mash out temp would not add any of the decoction flavour because there is no grain in the boil?


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## newguy (27/2/08)

kevnlis said:


> I have only done 3 decoctions, but it would seem to me that doing a thin decoction to hit your mash out temp would not add any of the decoction flavour because there is no grain in the boil?



Thin doesn't mean that it's all liquid, just mostly liquid. There's still grain, and you still get the decoction flavour. It's just not as intense as what you get from a full triple decoction.


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## blackbock (27/2/08)

I think the ideal way to do it is with a thick decoction, as this reduces the likelihood of extracting tannins, but more importantly it does not fatally reduce the amount of available enzymes, which are mostly to be found in the liquid portion.

As well as the flavours it can add, I would like to add that I think a decoction is definitely worthwhile in a beer with 100% Munich or Vienna as the base malt, as these already have a low diastatic power and the boiling action of the decoction helps to break down the mushy starches of the thick part.


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## cliffo (2/4/08)

Just poured a test glass of the Dunkel I kegged earlier today....heaven!! It has a lovely ruby hue and great malty taste.

I'm planning to ignore the keg for a few weeks if possible though it is tasting sooo good already I doubt that will happen :beerbang: 

Here's the recipe I used though I (finally) hit near 75% efficiency so added 3L cooled boiled water to the fermenter to lower the OG:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L 
Boil Size: 25.42 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 38.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.39 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 61.95 % 
1.70 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 30.97 % 
0.19 kg Carafa I (663.9 EBC) Grain 3.54 % 
0.19 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 3.54 % 
43.00 gm Hallertauer [3.70 %] (60 min) Hops 18.0 IBU 
10.00 gm Hallertauer [3.70 %] (15 min) Hops 2.1 IBU 
10.00 gm Hallertauer [3.70 %] (5 min) Hops 0.8 IBU 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.48 kg
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Step Add 11.99 L of water at 76.5 C 67.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 5.53 L of water and heat to 78.098.0 C 

Will probably lower the mash temp for the next batch by 1-2 degrees but certainly can't complain with how this has turned out.

FG was 1.018 so I think thats a bit too high - could this be due to the higher mash temp I used?

cliffo


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## Stuster (2/4/08)

cliffo said:


> FG was 1.018 so I think thats a bit too high - could this be due to the higher mash temp I used?



67C is not that high. I'd probably have expected it to finish a couple of points lower. Are you sure of your thermometer? And what yeast did you use?

It's a lovely style for winter drinking, isn't it. :icon_drool2:


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## drsmurto (2/4/08)

Probably a very stupid question but - do you 'need' to lager a dunkel?


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## cliffo (2/4/08)

Stuster said:


> 67C is not that high. I'd probably have expected it to finish a couple of points lower. Are you sure of your thermometer? And what yeast did you use?
> 
> It's a lovely style for winter drinking, isn't it. :icon_drool2:



Yeast was S189 lager yeast, not the ideal for the style but does the job.

I got the same reading from a digital probe thermo as the mashmaster weldless so can only assume they are correct though might pay to do some sort of calibration.

Regardless, I'm very happy with the outcome so it will be an enjoyable 20 litres of drinking to come.


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## cliffo (2/4/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Probably a very stupid question but - do you 'need' to lager a dunkel?



Not a a stupid question at all. 

The first taste would suggest there is no need for lagering a Dunkel though I guess I'm thinking along regular pale lager lines whereby time lagering greatly improves the beer.

Is anyone able to answer DrS's question?

cliffo


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## kabooby (2/4/08)

I had to calibrate both of my mashmaster thermometers a few degrees when I got them

Kabooby


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## newguy (2/4/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Probably a very stupid question but - do you 'need' to lager a dunkel?



In my experience, lagering does tend to smooth the flavour profile a bit, as it does for ales as well. No matter what the beer (ale or lager), they tend to get better tasting the longer they've been sitting in my serving fridge.

Not sure if I answered your question or not?


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## cliffo (2/4/08)

newguy said:


> In my experience, lagering does tend to smooth the flavour profile a bit, as it does for ales as well. No matter what the beer (ale or lager), they tend to get better tasting the longer they've been sitting in my serving fridge.
> 
> Not sure if I answered your question or not?



I agree, beers tend to get smooth out the longer they sit. Always a matter of can I hold off getting stuck into them though hehehehehe

Kabooby - might have to check the mashmaster and see if its still accurate or needs adjustment

cliffo


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (4/4/08)

cliffo said:


> Just poured a test glass of the Dunkel I kegged earlier today....heaven!! It has a lovely ruby hue and great malty taste.
> 
> I'm planning to ignore the keg for a few weeks if possible though it is tasting sooo good already I doubt that will happen :beerbang:
> 
> ...



Hi cliffo,

saw the picture of your Dunkel in the WITG thread. Looks fantastic!!
What yeast did you use mate?

C&B
TDA


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## cliffo (4/4/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Hi cliffo,
> 
> saw the picture of your Dunkel in the WITG thread. Looks fantastic!!
> What yeast did you use mate?
> ...



TDA,

I used W34/70 (2 packets).

I mentioned in another post that I used S189 but double checked my records and definately used *34/70*.

cliffo


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## dc59 (27/4/08)

Hey everyone just recently (as in on Friday night) discovered the joys of the Munich Dunkel at the Lowenbrau and thought it amazing. Since than been reading style guidelines and threads (inparticular this one) and have come up with a draft recipe I'd like people to review and make any possible recommendations.

Grain Bill

4.5kg of munich
0.25kg of flaked barley
0.25kg of Carafa 1
0.25kg of Melanoiden

For hops I'm thinking 

40g of Hallertauer (2.1%) at 60min
10g of super alpha (12.2%) at 60min
10g of Hallertauer at 20min

Sorry I forgot to add my efficiency is at 70% and I plan on mashing about 64-66'C

and I'm thinking W34/70 for yeast

Anyone done this style before and can see any issues with my recipe? I wont be doing it till the weekend.

Thanks Dave.


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## mika (27/4/08)

I haven't made one...yet. Don't understand what you're trying to achieve with the Carafa and flaked Barley. As you may have read, it can be made with 100% of a light munich (~12Lov). I think the melanoidon could be a nice touch though. A nice liquid lager yeast would be good as well, but the W34/70 will work. Don't know what Super Alpha tastes like either, but you really want a neutral sort of high alpha hop that will blend with the Hallertau, there's one that's related (magnum ?).


----------



## newguy (28/4/08)

Dravid said:


> Grain Bill
> 
> 4.5kg of munich
> 0.25kg of flaked barley
> ...



That's a lot of carafa. If your intention was to use it for colour adjustment, then cut way back to about 50g at most. I do 10 gallon batches and when I use it for colour, I usually add only about 100g at most. Personally, I'd leave it out altogether. The flaked barley probably won't do much; you certainly won't taste it at that low concentration. Are you adding it to beef up the head of the finished beer? If so, it isn't necessary. The melanoiden malt should be a good addition.

If you're really concerned about getting a darker colour, add 250g of caramunich.

The 10g of Hallertauer for 20 minutes - you won't taste/smell it in the finished beer at all. This style is definitely malt-centered, so it's probably a good idea to omit it altogether. Brew it once with just a bittering hop addition and see what it turns out like. If you find that you'd like a bit of a hop presence, then on the next batch (there will DEFINITELY be a next batch  ) adjust your recipe accordingly.

Once you brew this, you'll forever belong to the "dark side" - the munich malt dark side. B) Munich malt is my favourite malt; nothing pains me more than tasting a bock, dunkel or doppelbock made without it. :angry:


----------



## neonmeate (28/4/08)

cliffo said:


> FG was 1.018 so I think thats a bit too high - could this be due to the higher mash temp I used?
> 
> cliffo




cliffo looks like a great recipe! one thing i have noticed with using munich in large percentages as a base - it tends to add a couple of points to your fg. along with the 67C mash and the caramunich that would make 1018 about right. who cares though if it tastes good.


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## cliffo (28/4/08)

neonmeate said:


> cliffo looks like a great recipe! one thing i have noticed with using munich in large percentages as a base - it tends to add a couple of points to your fg. along with the 67C mash and the caramunich that would make 1018 about right. who cares though if it tastes good.



I'm very happy with how it turned out and it just keeps getting better in the keg as well. 

This will become one of my standard brews - should be just the thing over winter.


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## dc59 (28/4/08)

Thanks for advice Mika and Newguy

Latest update on recipe is

4.5kg of light munich
0.25kg of caramunich
0.25kg of melanoiden

50g of Hallertauer (2.1%) 60min (wish it my batch had a higher alpha rating)
5g of super alpha (12.2%) 60min

made to 21L with W34/70

And don't worry newguy, there'll be plenty of these coming being made. Hopefully it wont take to many takes to get a great recipe sorted. I'll probably order ingredients tomorrow night or the next if I don't get anymore recipe changes. Thanks for tips, hope this recipe looks more promising.

Dave


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## newguy (29/4/08)

Dave,

The recipe looks like a winner. Good luck with it!


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## drsmurto (30/7/08)

Hmmmm, have run out of pils and ale malt but have 10kg or so of Wey Munich I.

And some hallertau and tettnang plugs in the freezer.

And a pack of 2206 in the fridge.

I think the decision has been made  

Was thinking Munich I with enough carafa spec II to adjust colour and then a single or maybe even double decoction.

I have some wey vienna lying around too.......

Since hop flavour/aroma is out of style in a dunkel what are peoples thoughts on FWH instead of a 60 min addition?


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## Muggus (30/7/08)

What an odd coincidence...I just dropped into my local brewshop this arvo and bought some improvised ingredients that should make something similiar to a Munich Dunkel (or Bock).
1.5kg Pale Malt Extract
1.5kg Amber Malt Extract
1.0kg light Munich grain
150g Chocolate grain

Not sure what it'll make, but a dunkel does sound close. 
I have a tiny amount (15g) of Sticklebract lying around that could be used for bittering, but I have a feeling i'll need some more hops!


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## dc59 (30/7/08)

I think if your alpha rating is up there, your 15g of Stricklebract will probably be enough. You only need an IBU of 18 - 28 I think to be in style. Not that being in style is completely important.

At least to som,e people  

Dave.


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## afromaiko (31/7/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Seen one suggestion of 17% melanoidin in a dunkel.......... Link



Being fairly new to AG I haven't made this style before, nor have I used melanoidin, but these recipes are making my mouth water. However I do have both munich malt and melanoidin in my stores begging to be used. 

So is 17% melanoidin a recommended amount for this beer or should I tone it down a bit?

Cheers.


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## geoffi (31/7/08)

afromaiko said:


> Being fairly new to AG I haven't made this style before, nor have I used melanoidin, but these recipes are making my mouth water. However I do have both munich malt and melanoidin in my stores begging to be used.
> 
> So is 17% melanoidin a recommended amount for this beer or should I tone it down a bit?
> 
> Cheers.




I've picked up some excellent tips from the Jamil Show, but sometimes I wonder about the amount of specialty malt he includes in recipes. This is a case in point.17% melanoidin in anything sounds like an insanely large amount. I'd keep it to about 5% myself. More than that and I've found it overwhelming.


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## geoffi (31/7/08)

Anyone used dark Munich in this style? I was thinking 50/50 dark Munich/Pils, and a sprinkle of Carafa for extra colour.


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## Stuster (31/7/08)

Geoffi said:


> Anyone used dark Munich in this style? I was thinking 50/50 dark Munich/Pils, and a sprinkle of Carafa for extra colour.



I've got a Munich Dunkel with almost all Wey Munich II with just a touch of carafa that's just slowly carbing up at the moment. It seems good so far. I think you could definitely do half and half as well.

I totally agree with you on the Melanoidin as well. Can't imagine using 17% of it.


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## geoffi (31/7/08)

Stuster said:


> I've got a Munich Dunkel with almost all Wey Munich II with just a touch of carafa that's just slowly carbing up at the moment. It seems good so far. I think you could definitely do half and half as well.
> 
> I totally agree with you on the Melanoidin as well. Can't imagine using 17% of it.




Yes, it's lunacy. And as this style uses a large whack of Munich, it would be like adding a few tablespoons of dark brown sugar to your bowl of treacle. :icon_vomit:


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## afromaiko (31/7/08)

Geoffi said:


> Yes, it's lunacy. And as this style uses a large whack of Munich, it would be like adding a few tablespoons of dark brown sugar to your bowl of treacle. :icon_vomit:



95% light munich and 5% melanoidin it will be then, thanks!


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## geoffi (31/7/08)

afromaiko said:


> 95% light munich and 5% melanoidin it will be then, thanks!




The only thing I'd say about that is it will probably come out a little on the light side colour-wise. I'd add 100g or so of a dark malt as well, preferably (but not necessarily) Carafa Special.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (31/7/08)

Geoffi said:


> Anyone used dark Munich in this style? I was thinking 50/50 dark Munich/Pils, and a sprinkle of Carafa for extra colour.



I have brewed a couple of Munich Dunkels and my favourite had just under 50% Weyermann Dark Munich.

The other one used 99% Weyermann Dark Munich and the FG ended up far too high for a true Munich Dunkel.

Here is the recipe I preferred:

Dumkopf Dunkel 
Munich Dunkel 


Type: All Grain
Date: 13/08/2004 
Batch Size: 23.50 L
Brewer: Mark Rasheed 
Boil Size: 29.00 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 60 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.40 kg Weyermann Munich I (15.8 EBC) Grain 47.5 % 
2.40 kg Weyermann Munich II (23.6 EBC) Grain 47.5 % 
0.20 kg Weyermann Caraaroma (350.7 EBC) Grain 4.0 % 
0.05 kg JWM Chocolate Malt (750.6 EBC) Grain 1.0 % 
35.00 gm Tettnang [4.60%] (60 min) Hops 20.5 IBU 
15.00 gm Tettnang [4.60%] (15 min) Hops 2.3 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) Yeast-Lager 

Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.051 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.1 % 
Bitterness: 22.8 IBU 
Est Color: 34.6 EBC 


C&B
TDA


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## drsmurto (6/8/08)

What hops did you use TDA? 

Still havent had a reply to my question about FWH. Is it appropriate for this style or should i stick to a single addition at 60 mins?

Have 2206 on the stir plate ready to brew this weekend. B)


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## Stuster (6/8/08)

Seems like it might work to me, Dr S. Should give the low levels of hop aroma/flavour that you can get from a small, late addition.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (6/8/08)

DrSmurto said:


> What hops did you use TDA?
> 
> Still havent had a reply to my question about FWH. Is it appropriate for this style or should i stick to a single addition at 60 mins?
> 
> Have 2206 on the stir plate ready to brew this weekend. B)



Obviously Tettnanger on the one I posted the recipe for.

Will have to check the hops I used in the other one tonight and get back to you.
Any noble German hop would do and in a Dunkel I would just be adding a 60 minute addition.

C&B
TDA


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## drsmurto (7/8/08)

Played around with the recipe last night as the partner was watching 'So you think you can dance'. :angry: 

Using up open packets of hops hence the 3 varities!

Recipe: 79 Munich Dunkel
Brewer: DrSmurto
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Munich Dunkel
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 33.55 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 38.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.50 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 94.02 % 
0.25 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 4.27 % 
0.10 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 1.71 % 
10.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 6.0 IBU 
25.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [2.60 %] (60 min)Hops 6.0 IBU 
30.00 gm Tettnang [4.30 %] (60 min) Hops 13.0 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Bavarian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2206) [StarteYeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 5.85 kg
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
25 min Protein Rest Add 16.00 L of water at 56.1 C 50.0 C 
40 min Saccharification Decoct 5.63 L of mash and boil it 64.0 C 
20 min Saccharification Decoct 3.35 L of mash and boil it 70.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 9.00 L of water at 94.5 C 78.0 C 

Excited about this one. Will use the yeast cake to try my hand at a maibock......


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## newguy (7/8/08)

The recipe looks perfect!


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## drsmurto (11/8/08)

You have got to love the smell of boiling mash! Soooooo goood. :icon_drool2: 

Double decoction didnt take anywhere as long as i thought it would. Added maybe an hour and a half to the brew day. Will give a triple decoction a go with my next pilsner

The cat loved it too, she was licking the jug i used to scoop out the mash.


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## goatherder (8/10/08)

Stuster said:


> I've got a Munich Dunkel with almost all Wey Munich II with just a touch of carafa that's just slowly carbing up at the moment. It seems good so far. I think you could definitely do half and half as well.



How did this one turn out Stuster? I'm thinking of something similar and was wondering if all munich II was going to be over the top.


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## Stuster (8/10/08)

It's definitely a drinkable beer, goatherder. I like it but I guess it doesn't have quite enough complexity in the malts for a Munich Dunkel. I think I entered one in the Castle Hill show (it was a bit of a rush to get to the HBS) so I might be wrong and I'll let you know what the judges say about it. 


Unless of course I didn't enter it in the end. :lol:


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## blackbock (1/8/09)

After a couple of months' brewing hiatus, I plan on doing this one tomorrow:

Equilibrium Dunkel 
Munich Dunkel 

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 24.00 L
Brewer: Blackbock 
Boil Size: 29.41 L 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Blackbox Brewery III 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 91.4 % 
0.20 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 3.7 % 
0.15 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (49.3 EBC) Grain 2.7 % 
0.12 kg Pale Chocolate (Bairds) (600.0 EBC) Grain 2.2 % 
18.00 gm Green Bullet [10.00%] (60 min) Hops 22.4 IBU 
30.00 gm Saazer [4.00%] (60 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 

Yeast: WLP838 German Bock Lager

Although the late hops are not usual, the Saazer will be thrown in to get rid of some old plugs I have in the freezer, I doubt they will add much aroma anyways..


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## 3G (1/8/09)

Drinking a dunkel made with 2308, a great beer, malty but dry. Going to make another batch next week using 833, meant to be even better. Lovely style


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## Katherine (3/8/09)

This question was asked earlier but not really anwsered.

Do you treat a Munich Dunkel the same as a lager at fermentation time. ?


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## brettprevans (3/8/09)

Katie said:


> Do you treat a Munich Dunkel the same as a lager at fermentation time. ?


if using a lager yeast (which you should) then yes. lovely clean malty beer.


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## blackbock (3/8/09)

Katie said:


> This question was asked earlier but not really anwsered.
> 
> Do you treat a Munich Dunkel the same as a lager at fermentation time. ?



Munich Dunkel is most definitely a lager style. No room for esters in this one! It's all about the MALT!


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## Katherine (3/8/09)

We have a danish lager yeast at home would that be okay to use?


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## brettprevans (3/8/09)

danish lager huh? well if its a clean ferment yeast then why not. cant do any harm


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## blackbock (3/8/09)

Katie I would say that it depends a lot on your grainbill. If you use a lot of Crystal, Dark Munich and/or Melanoidin malts it should be a good one to try. If you are going for a more boring grainbill without the richer, sweeter malts, you would be better off with another yeast. Having said that, I wouldn't be at all worried to use it at least once


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## Katherine (4/8/09)

Cheers....

So ive got the yeast organised just need to work the rest out LOL! Im working backwards.


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## brettprevans (4/8/09)

KT there's been a few munich dunkle recipes added recently. I think there was 2 or 3 in the Vic case swap. maybe have a look at them.


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## Katherine (4/8/09)

dont you worry about CM2 im on the case!


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## brettprevans (4/8/09)

I could bottle up sample of my caseswap dunkle and send it over but its an extract version. so not that helpful. although you would notice that it suffers slightly from not having Melanoidin malt in it.


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## Katherine (20/8/09)

I brewed my Munkle Dunkle on the weekend... What a interesting chill experience anyhow.

How dark or should I say light can a dunkle be!

I used munich i and caramunich i ...

Its seems quite light out of the fermenter.


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## drsmurto (20/8/09)

Kegged my latest Dunkel (Katie, CM2 - I assume your spelling error is deliberate and an in joke?).

Very malty, lots of bready flavours/aromas - only used a bittering addition. I used carafa instead of caramunich.

First use of the german bock yeast (WLP833) and am very impressed.

Just need to get the carb level up a bit, english carb levels don't seem to do it justice


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## Katherine (20/8/09)

Not sure about CM2 but yes a joke! 

so Dr I thought you were going to answer my question. 

Okay now Im thinking it could of being carafa. I know the next one will be munich 1, carafa 1 and vienna. 

Umm Im rambling so how light can a munkle dunkle be?


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## brettprevans (20/8/09)

im still struggling to determine what spelling mistake!!!

SRM: 14-28 : Deep copper to dark brown, often with a red or garnet tint. Creamy, light to medium tan head. Usually clear, although murky unfiltered versions exist. from bjcp of course


edit:

ahh ok i see dunkle instead of dunkel. nah mines not a joke just shithouse spelling on my behalf.


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## haysie (20/8/09)

Color is variable and doesnt lose you too many points in a comp beer. More about the beer than the color. I have one on tap,
went something like
L/Munich
C/Munich2
Carafa1
Choc
Melanoiden
Acidulated

Bittering hops only. Wyeast2308.

Its a great color, ummm beerbottle brown with a distintive red hue


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## Katherine (20/8/09)

Cheers guys it certainly looked like that in the pot it was beautiful. Its kind of the colour of peanut butter now! And tasting like butterscotch!


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## brettprevans (20/8/09)

what was the recipe KT


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## Katherine (20/8/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> what was the recipe KT



ill let you know the exact tommorow. in my brew book


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## therook (20/8/09)

Katie said:


> ill let you know the exact tommorow. in my brew book




Katie,

Is it the one you PM'd me about last week? If it is it's this one

IMO it will be a nice beer 

(10) MUNICH DUNKEL

2500g Munich Light Malt
2250 Vienna Malt
250 Carafa Special 1
20BU Tettnang Hops, 25g Soak,10g Dry Hop
Wyeast Bavarian Lager Yeast




Rook


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## Katherine (20/8/09)

therook said:


> Katie,
> 
> Is it the one you PM'd me about last week? If it is it's this one
> 
> ...



No I changed it drrrrr! That one next time. 

Is it normal for a lager to have the butterscotch flavour at first? then it clear up?


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## Fourstar (20/8/09)

I can vouch for the Munich lager Wyeast strain.. very nice. I went for Striaght Munich malt with 1.5% Carafa. single infusion @ 67 deg. To achieve mashout i did a decoction to get more of the melanoidens happening.

The beer turned out well, the results of vicbrew will ultimately tell the story with this one. It was also a beer i made before i began water additions so i did some tweaking with it afetr i transfered it to the bright keg, post 4 months of lagering. I did a side by side with and without some calcium chloride in the glass. All i can say is i can now taste the differene with chloride additions. The flavour was somewhat smoother, and seemed to up the maltiness. It just had alot more malt presence. I should have done a blind triangle taste test but I beleiev it was signifigant enough to tell the diff. If you cand o a calcium chloride addtion into the keg, go for it! I'd hoot for around 70-100ppm of Chloride.


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## drsmurto (20/8/09)

Butterscotch is indicative of diacetyl. Not having used the danish lager yeast i cant comment on it. 

Mine doesnt* have diacetyl and i didnt do a diacetyl rest (pitched warm, WLP833, 3 weeks primary, 4+ weeks at 1C).

Cheers
DrSmurto

* my diacetyl detecting taste tester is yet to taste this beer and comment. i cant detect diacetyl or at least, not as butterscotch. The one beer i have had that was full of diacetyl used the american ale II yeast (WY1272). None of my lagers have had it.


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## Fourstar (20/8/09)

Katie said:


> Is it normal for a lager to have the butterscotch flavour at first? then it clear up?



That would be Diacetyl, it may be accentuated by crystal malt if you have any. If its still in the fermenter, at the end of fermentation warm it up to ambient temps 16-18deg~ for a couple of days just to help the yeast clean up after itself, this should help reduce the diacetyl. If its already kegged, do the same thing, you might have enough yeast left in the keg to help clean up any precursors like diacetyl. 

Cheers!


----------



## Katherine (20/8/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Butterscotch is indicative of diacetyl. Not having used the danish lager yeast i cant comment on it.
> 
> Mine doesnt* have diacetyl and i didnt do a diacetyl rest (pitched warm, WLP833, 3 weeks primary, 4+ weeks at 1C).
> 
> ...



We used in the yeast in the lager with conditioning now. It has no butterscotch taste. Lloydie ensures me it will go away! Now with the diacetyl rest some people swear by it and some dont. Which confuses me as there both very much respected by myself! If it has the butterscotch flavour now does that mean it requires a D rest.


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## drsmurto (20/8/09)

Yes

I generally taste it at the end of ferment. If its laden with diacetyl, then give it a diacetyl rest.

If not, straight into the lagering stage


----------



## Katherine (20/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> That would be Diacetyl, it may be accentuated by crystal malt if you have any. If its still in the fermenter, at the end of fermentation warm it up to ambient temps 16-18deg~ for a couple of days just to help the yeast clean up after itself, this should help reduce the diacetyl. If its already kegged, do the same thing, you might have enough yeast left in the keg to help clean up any precursors like diacetyl.
> 
> Cheers!



Fourstar I had already posted before you replied. Its only 5 days old. That is what we were thinking of doing. So that is a D rest yeah! 

Now another question has all lager yeast got diacetyl in it? does the yeast just take the taste away but the diacetyl is still there. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Fourstar (20/8/09)

Katie said:


> If it has the butterscotch flavour now does that mean it requires a D rest.



If its at the end of fermentation or very close to. Yes! Crank the temp up and let the yeasties do their thing. Theres no hurt in doing a diacetyl reast so i dont understand why people avoid it. Unless of course you are stressed for time with the beer and need to get it somewhere. 

Ive never had diacetyl in any of my beers until the latest palealemania comp. I had to speed up the end of fermentation on my AIPA and rushed the diacetyl rest, I ended up 1 of the bottles riddled with diacetyl according to my judging sheet. I'm unsure why only 1 of them was noted with having diacetyl. My only conclusion is it kicked off some tertiary/residual fermentation in the bottle. Im at the end of the keg and she definitely doesnt taste of any diacetyl. on the other hand It does have alot of crystal sweetness maybe it was incorrect judging?! who knows.


----------



## Fourstar (20/8/09)

Katie said:


> Fourstar I had already posted before you replied. Its only 5 days old. That is what we were thinking of doing. So that is a D rest yeah!
> 
> Now another question has all lager yeast got diacetyl in it? does the yeast just take the taste away but the diacetyl is still there. Hope that makes sense.



Diacetyl is a by product of fermentation, At the end of fermentation when the yeast begins to go dormant, it starts storing reserves, when it does this it begins to absorb fermentation precursors such as diacetyl, acetaldehyde etc and breakes them down into flavourless/odorless compounds. 

ALL yeast produce diacetyl. There is no avoiding that, some produce it in noticable amounts (irish yeast), others dont. It's always best to avoid diacetyl in your final product by keeping fermentation temps stable. This is a surefire way todo it. It will aid in reabsorbption of diacetyl as with cold spikes yest tends to drop out and not reabsorb the diacetyl it has put out. Even better is to warm up at the end of fermentation and more yeast (the ones which where about to say goodnight) will reabsorb diacetyl too, rather than floc out.

I hope this makes sense.


----------



## Katherine (20/8/09)

Thanks it does...

Thanks to you all!


----------



## Thirsty Boy (20/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> If its at the end of fermentation or very close to. Yes! Crank the temp up and let the yeasties do their thing. Theres no hurt in doing a diacetyl reast so i dont understand why people avoid it. Unless of course you are stressed for time with the beer and need to get it somewhere.
> 
> Ive never had diacetyl in any of my beers until the latest palealemania comp. I had to speed up the end of fermentation on my AIPA and rushed the diacetyl rest, I ended up 1 of the bottles riddled with diacetyl according to my judging sheet. I'm unsure why only 1 of them was noted with having diacetyl. My only conclusion is it kicked off some tertiary/residual fermentation in the bottle. Im at the end of the keg and she definitely doesnt taste of any diacetyl. on the other hand It does have alot of crystal sweetness maybe it was incorrect judging?! who knows.




You might just have had an infected bottle - pedio (and some other spoilage bacteria) pumps out the diacetyl. Sometimes it might be the first sign of a low level infection

I'm with you, I d'rest everything. Although, i do a rising temperature fermentation on nearly everything anyway... so it just kind of happens really. Also starting your fermentation temperatures a little low can help - the faster and harder the yeast start fermenting, the more diacetyl they will pump out - start em up slow, below the main ferment temp and let them rise up to it over a day or two. A you will rarely ever need a D-rest. I hate the stuff and I am very sensitive to it ... couldn't stand it if I turned out beers with a diacetyl problem.


----------



## Fourstar (20/8/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> You might just have had an infected bottle - pedio (and some other spoilage bacteria) pumps out the diacetyl. Sometimes it might be the first sign of a low level infection



Interesting Thirsty. It may have been so, i doubt it was an infection thou as it was merely 24-36 hours into the bottle at the time of judging. Not to mention i napisan and starsan'd. does pedio give off any specific phenols/esters?


----------



## acoulson (20/8/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> You might just have had an infected bottle - pedio (and some other spoilage bacteria) pumps out the diacetyl. Sometimes it might be the first sign of a low level infection


Sorry to butt in but I think thirsty boy is on the money. Especially in the first 24 to 36 hours when the low DO(dissolved oxygen) levels. After this, as the DO drops to zero the LAB's (Lactic acid bacteria) would stop or slow down their growth.

Fourstar- It's great to read a post (about diacetyl) from someone who clearly knows their brewing chemistry and the practical applications...like music to my ears..or is that eyes :blink:


----------



## Fourstar (21/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> Sorry to butt in but I think thirsty boy is on the money. Especially in the first 24 to 36 hours when the low DO(dissolved oxygen) levels. After this, as the DO drops to zero the LAB's (Lactic acid bacteria) would stop or slow down their growth.
> 
> Fourstar- It's great to read a post (about diacetyl) from someone who clearly knows their brewing chemistry and the practical applications...like music to my ears..or is that eyes :blink:



Cheers mate, interesting concept. Im still dubious of this as i relentless with cleaning/sanitisation not to mention all of my beer is force carbed in the keg, i purge all bottles with CO2 before filling as well as cap on foam. I no longer bottle prime, unless im filling excess from the fermenter (whcih is still a very rare case). Either way, i cant fix it now. The reason why i was dubious is the same beer was entered into the Pale ale side of the comp with no negative feedback and scored 10 points higher(avg'd score)... go figure. Not to mention is was 1.5 Points (per judge) away from a placing.


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## crundle (21/8/09)

Got a Munich Dunkel fermenting atm, almost finished, only 4 gravity points to go. I will leave it for a week further and then give it a few days to raise in temperature before kegging. The samples taste amazing, so damn malty!

Crundle


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## brettprevans (21/8/09)

crundle said:


> Got a Munich Dunkel fermenting atm, almost finished, only 4 gravity points to go. I will leave it for a week further and then give it a few days to raise in temperature before kegging. The samples taste amazing, so damn malty!
> 
> Crundle


recipe crundle, recipe. share the love


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## crundle (21/8/09)

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com

Recipe: crundle's munich dunkel

Brewer: Matt Milburn

Asst Brewer: 

Style: Munich Dunkel

TYPE: All Grain

Taste: (35.0) 



Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Batch Size: 25.00 L 

Boil Size: 35.34 L

Estimated OG: 1.055 SG

Estimated Color: 38.1 EBC

Estimated IBU: 21.2 IBU

Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %

Boil Time: 60 Minutes



Ingredients:

------------

Amount Item Type % or IBU 

5.55 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 94.87 % 

0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 3.42 % 

0.10 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 1.71 % 

28.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.60 %] (60 minHops 16.9 IBU 

5.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.60 %] (40 minHops 2.3 IBU 

10.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.60 %] (20 minHops 2.0 IBU 

1 Pkgs Munich Lager (Wyeast Labs #2308) [Starter Yeast-Lager 





Mash Schedule: Full volume Single Infusion, Medium body, Mash Out

Total Grain Weight: 5.85 kg

----------------------------

BIAB - single infusion full volume brewing.

Added some melanoidin to try to account for not giving it a decoction mash. Fermentation almost over, will give it a diacetyl rest before kegging. Used the 2308 as part of a Beerbelly challenge.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Katherine (21/8/09)

5.7kg of Munich 1
180g Caramunich 1

Hallertau 35g 60 min
Hallertau 15g 20 min

Wyeast Danish Lager

Mashed at 66
Mashed out 76


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## blackbock (27/8/09)

I've been sampling my Dunkel as it ages and it is superb. I put it largely down to the yeast, as I have brewed with similar grainbills before only the flavour didn't have quite the same depth to them. WLP833 is an absolute stand out yeast for this style as far as I'm concerned. I also screwed up my first temperature rest, heated to what I thought was 66 but later measured 72. WTF...anyhow it worked beautifully.


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## drsmurto (27/8/09)

blackbock said:


> I've been sampling my Dunkel as it ages and it is superb. I put it largely down to the yeast, as I have brewed with similar grainbills before only the flavour didn't have quite the same depth to them. WLP833 is an absolute stand out yeast for this style as far as I'm concerned. I also screwed up my first temperature rest, heated to what I thought was 66 but later measured 72. WTF...anyhow it worked beautifully.



Agree big time. My dunkel using 833 is going down far too easily. Even my swill drinking mates couldnt believe how easy 'something that dark' was to drink. Will be a regular here!

Nice and malty but still finishes dry. :icon_drunk:


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## Stubbie (27/8/09)

Mmmmmmmmmmm.........WLP833/Bock yeast, or the Wyeast equivalent, 2206/Bavarian Lager. Tis my favourite lager yeast. A Munich Dunkel gets the guernsey for my last lager of the season, just as soon as the ex Vienna yeast cake is available.

Stubbie


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## drsmurto (27/8/09)

Stubbie said:


> Mmmmmmmmmmm.........WLP833/Bock yeast, or the Wyeast equivalent, 2206/Bavarian Lager. Tis my favourite lager yeast. A Munich Dunkel gets the guernsey for my last lager of the season, just as soon as the ex Vienna yeast cake is available.
> 
> Stubbie



:icon_offtopic: Care to share your Vienna recipe Stubbie? I've got 1/3 of a yeastcale of the 833 yeast and have been thinking about what to do next. German pils, okky but a vienna lager sounds yummo.


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## Katherine (7/9/09)

Katie said:


> 5.7kg of Munich 1
> 180g Caramunich 1
> 
> Hallertau 35g 60 min
> ...



How light can a Munich Dunkel be?


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## brettprevans (7/9/09)

Katie said:


> How light can a Munich Dunkel be?



dj vu KT



citymorgue2 said:


> SRM: 14-28 : Deep copper to dark brown, often with a red or garnet tint. Creamy, light to medium tan head. Usually clear, although murky unfiltered versions exist. from bjcp of course


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## Katherine (7/9/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> dejavue KT




i know I know... I have read the guidelines. 

I wanted to see if anybody could see if I used the wrong grain. so far its the colour of a ocktoberfest!


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## brettprevans (7/9/09)

so long as its tastes good who cares? unless your entering it in a comp? recipe looked ok to me.


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## Katherine (7/9/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> so long as its tastes good who cares? unless your entering it in a comp? recipe looked ok to me.



It was going to go in a comp. Doesnt have to will be a occy now! why didnt it go the colour of garnets! Somebody tell me!


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## crundle (7/9/09)

I used .2kg of Carafa Special II at around 800 EBC, and it has come out to be very reminiscent of a ruby in colour. Maybe the Caramunich is a bit light colour-wise, although I would say it would still taste fantastic being a Munich Dunkel anyway, I can't get enough of it!

Crundle


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## drsmurto (4/1/10)

Pitched the yeast (WLP833) into my latest dunkel.

Only did a single infusion this time - 65C for 90 mins

92% wey munich II
5% wey melanoidin
3% wey carafa spec II
Hersbrucker to 26 IBU

A little concerned after reading through this thread that i may have gone overboard with the malt although i did mash low.  

Can a dunkel be too malty?


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Can a dunkel be too malty?



NEVERRR!!! 

How dark has it come out with 3% Carafa?! I used like .5% and mine was almost brown!


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## drsmurto (4/1/10)

According to beersmith its 40 EBC


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> According to beersmith its 40 EBC



or SRM! :lol:


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## Effect (3/4/10)

I was thinking of doing this recipe at some stage

linky

But I don't have any munich II only munich I. Is there a BIG difference between the two? I have previously been told no, but just want to double check.

Cheers
Phil


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## razz (3/4/10)

It's just a few degrees darker Phil, so just a bit more of the Mun 1 if you want color.


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## Effect (3/4/10)

razz said:


> It's just a few degrees darker Phil, so just a bit more of the Mun 1 if you want color.




well its 99% munich II and 1% carafa special II. Do I just up the carafa special II to compensate for the colour difference? I was thinking of going 98/2 Munich I/carafa II special.

Regardless...it will still produce a beer that is within the guidelines...

Cheers
Phil


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## drsmurto (4/4/10)

Phil - are you coming along to the Alt judge-off next weekend? 

Even if you dont have an Alt you are more than welcome to join in.

I'll have the Munich Dunkel from a few posts up on tap. Its munich II rather than my normal munich I. Not bad but i am biaised! 

Will also have an Dusseldorf alt and a dunkelweizen - german dark beer fest! :chug:

EDIT - my dunkel is much darker than Braukaisers but still within the guidelines.... i think....


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## Effect (12/4/10)

So even after making my way up to beerbelly to get brew supplies, I forgot to get hops for my brew day tomorrow. I was going to go with some tettnang, but have to go with something else now that I have on hand.

So for a munich dunkel, which hops would you use out of the ones I have on hand?

NS
NB
EKG
Galaxy
Warrior
Centennial
Cascade
Amarillo
Chinook
Columbus
D saaz

Cheers
Phil


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## drsmurto (12/4/10)

If you only do a 60 min addition then you could get away with the northern brewer.


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## Effect (12/4/10)

DrSmurto said:


> If you only do a 60 min addition then you could get away with the northern brewer.




I had a feeling that was the one that I was going to have to go with...

Revised grain bill
95/3/2 Munich/Melanoiden/Carafa II
1.048 OG (16.2 SRM)
NB 18 IBU @ 60 

Mash at 66.5 degrees.

WL833 at 12 degrees.


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## drsmurto (12/4/10)

Sounds good, let me know when it's ready


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## warra48 (12/4/10)

I'm getting ready for my once a year lager, and it will be a Munich Dunkel this year.

I have no idea whether this will make anything like an authentic dunkel, but this is what I've punched into BeerSmith so far:

4000.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 81.63 % 
500.00 gm Munich 2 (25.0 EBC) Grain 10.20 % 
200.00 gm Carared (43.0 EBC) Grain 4.08 % 
100.00 gm Chocolate (1200.0 EBC) Grain 2.04 % 
100.00 gm Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 2.04 % 
55.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 24.8 IBU 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Southern German Lager (White Labs #WLP838) [Starter 5000 ml] 

Any thoughts on this, anything I should drop or add?


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## drsmurto (12/4/10)

Drop the carared. I used crystal in my first dunkel and found it too sweet. 

Enough choc/carafa for colour adjust is all you need.


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## warra48 (12/4/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Drop the carared. I used crystal in my first dunkel and found it too sweet.
> 
> Enough choc/carafa for colour adjust is all you need.



Will do. Thanks Doc.
I don't want any more choc in there than I have now, so will add the requisite Carafe Special II to get the colour back on spec.


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## drsmurto (12/4/10)

warra48 said:


> Will do. Thanks Doc.
> I don't want any more choc in there than I have now, so will add the requisite Carafe Special II to get the colour back on spec.



I had 150g of carafa spec II in my last batch and that was right at the top end of the colour range.

So if you drop the choc you could get away with 100g of carafa


----------



## beers (12/4/10)

I did this one last year.. & I'm thinking it's about time to make it again. Probably won't change a thing as it turned out as one of the best beers I've ever brewed.

Type: All Grain
Date: 25/05/2009 
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 24.00 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 

Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Bitterness: 22.8 IBU 
Est Color: 38.8 EBC

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4000.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (16.0 EBC) Grain 76.92 % 
1000.00 gm Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 19.23 % 
100.00 gm Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (1150.0 EBC) Grain 1.92 % 
100.00 gm Carared (Weyermann) (43.0 EBC) Grain 1.92 % 
12.00 gm Super Alpha [11.00 %] (90 min) Hops 15.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Super Alpha (cube) [11.00 %] (20 min) Hops 7.3 IBU 
0.25 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
0.75 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) Yeast-Lager


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## big78sam (26/5/11)

I'm attempting a dunkel with what I have on hand. Recipe at the moment is


5kg Weyerman Light Minuch
200g Melanoiden
150g caramalt
100g JW choc

50g Hallertau (2.4% aa) @ 60 min
Horizon (9%) @ 60 min to get me to around 25 IBUs

Wyeast 2124

I would ideally be using carafa special instead of choc but I dont have any left. The other option is roast malt for colour. I'd need to use less but I imagine this will give a roasty/bitter character that is not for this style. Does this sound right?

The other concern I have is that I bought the Hallertau not realising it was only 2.4%aa. So if I use a neutral bittering hop like horizon to get to the IBUs I want will this suffice?


----------



## drsmurto (26/5/11)

I'd personally ditch the crystal but that's a personal thing.

I like a nice dry and crisp dunkel. I find crystal out of place in any lager.

Mash low would be my tip. 64-65C for 90 mins.

Bittering hops only are good in this malty beer and i in the past have used perle, tettnang and magnum. Dont see why you couldn't use horizon.


----------



## davewaldo (26/5/11)

I've been doing some searching and can't find a definitive answer....

What sort of water profile would you be looking at for this beer? I've seen recommendations from moderately hard to soft... Some say low sulphate, others just add calcium.

I'm building brew water from rainwater so I can do either easily enough....

any help would be great, thanks guys 

EDIT: I should add, I'm not interested in merely copying the "Munich Profile". I'm trying to learn when and how to make additions (and the flavours they contribute) rather than blindly follow profiles. Cheers!


----------



## drsmurto (26/5/11)

davewaldo said:


> I've been doing some searching and can't find a definitive answer....
> 
> What sort of water profile would you be looking at for this beer? I've seen recommendations from moderately hard to soft... Some say low sulphate, others just add calcium.
> 
> ...



I use a malty profile in a beer such as this.

Assuming your rainwater is a blank canvas.... for each 35L add 6g of CaSO4 and 6g of CaCl2. 

This results in Ca 87, SO4 96, Cl 82ppm.


----------



## Wolfy (15/7/11)

davewaldo said:


> What sort of water profile would you be looking at for this beer?
> 
> EDIT: I should add, I'm not interested in merely copying the "Munich Profile". I'm trying to learn when and how to make additions (and the flavours they contribute) rather than blindly follow profiles. Cheers!





DrSmurto said:


> I use a malty profile in a beer such as this.
> 
> Assuming your rainwater is a blank canvas.... for each 35L add 6g of CaSO4 and 6g of CaCl2.


Is there a reason _not _to match a Munich-like profile?
Assuming a 'blank canvas' ... just enough Chalk (CaCO3) to give 50ppm Ca and a tiny smidgen of Epsom Salt (MgSO4 *7H2O).
That way JP's 'Residual Alkalinity' and the 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio' both balance well for a 'malty' profile.


----------



## drsmurto (15/7/11)

Wolfy said:


> Is there a reason _not _to match a Munich-like profile?
> Assuming a 'blank canvas' ... just enough Chalk (CaCO3) to give 50ppm Ca and a tiny smidgen of Epsom Salt (MgSO4 *7H2O).
> That way JP's 'Residual Alkalinity' and the 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio' both balance well for a 'malty' profile.



Yet to see any legislation that requires a brewer in any city to use the water of that city or if using it, not be able to modify it.

So why assume you have to copy a water profile of a city to copy it's beer?

The beer style evolved in certain places due to the water, that doesn't lock it in for eternity. 

I base my water profiles on what i want the beer to taste like hence a malty profile for a malty lager.

Only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. :icon_drunk:


----------



## Florian (15/7/11)

Dr S, how would you compare your Munich2 Dunkel from last year to your Munich1 ones? 

My next brew day will be for this style and I'm contemplating if it's worth getting a full sack of Munich2 in a bulk buy beforehand.

EDIT: agree with you on the salt profile, always wondered why people copied city profiles for all sorts of old and modern beers, surely most of them would have adjusted water profiles anyway. An example would be Dortmund, where they traditionally have had very hard water, but apparently now use quite soft water to brew their Dortmunder style beers (although I have only heard this and obviously have no proof whatsoever).


----------



## drsmurto (15/7/11)

Florian said:


> Dr S, how would you compare your Munich2 Dunkel from last year to your Munich1 ones?
> 
> My next brew day will be for this style and I'm contemplating if it's worth getting a full sack of Munich2 in a bulk buy beforehand.
> 
> EDIT: agree with you on the salt profile, always wondered why people copied city profiles for all sorts of old and modern beers, surely most of them would have adjusted water profiles anyway. An example would be Dortmund, where they traditionally have had very hard water, but apparently now use quite soft water to brew their Dortmunder style beers (although I have only heard this and obviously have no proof whatsoever).



The munich 2 was uber malty and :icon_drunk: :icon_drool2: 

I'd say it was a better beer for that reason, finished a touch higher in FG from memory but still very sessionable. 

I buy Munich 2 (weyermann) by the bag as well. Goes very nicely in a dusseldorf alt too.


----------



## Wolfy (15/7/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Yet to see any legislation that requires a brewer in any city to use the water of that city or if using it, not be able to modify it.
> 
> So why assume you have to copy a water profile of a city to copy it's beer?
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with your logic, it's more than resonable to expect that breweries adjust their water chemistry as required.
However, nor did I suggest or assume that one needs to copy a water profile, hence the question remains. 

Munich - where this beer was developed - has carbonate water, which along with the information in the "_Key Concepts in Water Treatment_" .pdf should match darker (brown, to brown/black) and malty beers. Hence by adding a small amount of Chalk and a very little bit of Epsom Salt gives a minimum of 50ppm Ca, results in a small amount of carbonate (about half as much as the actual water profile) and matches the type of water for a 'malty' type beer.
This will give a 'Residual Alkalinity' value suitable for a 'Dark amber to copper beer' and a malty 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio'.

The alternate is to use Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate which can also build a malty profile, however due to the lack of carbonates, the 'Residual Alkalinity' will be significantly lower.

So back to the question ... is there a good reason why one should use Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate over (a very small amount of) Chalk to build a water profile for this beer?


----------



## Tony (15/7/11)

DrSmurto said:


> I buy Munich 2 (weyermann) by the bag as well. Goes very nicely in a dusseldorf alt too.



I only buy munich 2 these days by the bag.

I just adjust the malt character of the beer by increasing or decreasing the amount of Pilsner malt in the recipe.

Munich Dunkel and Altbier are made preety much the same in my house. Munich 2, Pilsner and Carafa Spec 2. I just adjust how much Munich 2 i use depending on how malty i want the beer. Usually more in winter, less in summer.

cheers


----------



## Florian (15/7/11)

Thanks Dr and Tony, I'll definately get a sack then. Can't wait, am really loving my dark lagers lately, seems the way to go for a while.


----------



## drsmurto (15/7/11)

Wolfy said:


> I don't disagree with your logic, it's more than resonable to expect that breweries adjust their water chemistry as required.
> However, nor did I suggest or assume that one needs to copy a water profile, hence the question remains.
> 
> Munich - where this beer was developed - has carbonate water, which along with the information in the "_Key Concepts in Water Treatment_" .pdf should match darker (brown, to brown/black) and malty beers. Hence by adding a small amount of Chalk and a very little bit of Epsom Salt gives a minimum of 50ppm Ca, results in a small amount of carbonate (about half as much as the actual water profile) and matches the type of water for a 'malty' type beer.
> ...



Why?

I've read about the concept of residual alkalinity and have never been convinced by the theory. In my opinion, wearing my scientist hat for the moment, the argument for residual alkalinity is based on colour without taking into account starting and final gravities, bitterness, type of malts used as well as beer style. It's a very narrow approach to something which is very complex. In simple systems you can take a single variable approach but in complex systems you have to take a more synergistic approach. The chemistry/biochemistry in the mash tun is complex. The residual alkalinity concept, in my opinion, is far too simple to be useful. 

Compare JW trad ale with a floor malted marris otter. One produces a much more malty beer but the colour difference is effectively zero. This isn't taken into account in the above theory. The same argument could be applied to american 2 and 6-row with the differing protein content. What about mashing at 63C vs 70C and the resulting difference in the FG of the 2 beers. All these examples are meant to show is that brewing is not simple and as such, a simple theory is inadequate.

I am not a fan of adding carbonates to my beer and would never add magnesium. Neither are required in my opinion. To make a beer malty and/or hoppy and get the Ca level up to 80-100ppm all you need is CaCl2 and CaSO4. 

And as always, these are just my opinions. You'll find a few people of this forum have them. Another opinion of mine is that water chemistry is extremely complex and far too many people on this forum have no idea what they are doing. Anyone measuring a weight using a volume measurement (teaspoons) falls into this category. 

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. Wolfy, this is in no way an attack on you. I just felt like letting off some steam and along comes a debate on chemistry.


----------



## manticle (15/7/11)

So far removed from being an expert in water chem it's not funny but the above is pretty much how I approach it too. I add salts to make the beer profile I want, not the water profile I'm told it needs.

Every brewing science text I've ever read suggests avoiding adding carbonates and even going to the effort of removing them if they are present.

Even the key concepts doc you refer to wolfy, suggests magnesium and chalk are best left out - chalk possibly only in very dark beers (which dunkel isn't really in my opinion when compared to stout). 

I remember Thirsty Boy posting something about dark beers being the only beers that will carry chalk but that doesn't mean they actually benefit from its addition.


----------



## Wolfy (15/7/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Why?


Why? ... because the water where this beer was developed has some carbonates, using CaCl2 and CaSO4 does not give you _any _ at all (assuming a starting blank-slate).
It may be that the answer to my question is '_carbonates do not belong in beer-brewing-water_' or '_a Munich Dunkel is not really a dark enough beer to need carbonates_'.

Ps: I wouldn't be asking a question (simply to debate something) if I already knew the answer, nor do I suggest that I know what I'm doing - hence the question - but at least I do measure salt additions by .01g cocaine-scales. 


manticle said:


> Even the key concepts doc you refer to wolfy, suggests magnesium and chalk are best left out - chalk possibly only in very dark beers (which dunkel isn't really in my opinion when compared to stout).
> 
> I remember Thirsty Boy posting something about dark beers being the only beers that will carry chalk but that doesn't mean they actually benefit from its addition.


I recall you suggesting that Chalk is not a good thing, hence the question in the first place.


----------



## technobabble66 (13/6/16)

NECRO time!!

Planning on trying my hand at a Munich Dunkel. So after a truckload of reading and checking many different recipes, i've put this together.
I'd love some feedback. 

Vol = 26L
OG=1.045
FG=1.007
IBU=21.5
EBC=44
alc%=5.3

4.4kg Munich (Viking) (88%)
0.2kg Aromatic (Ding) (4%)
0.15kg Melanoiden (Wey) (3%)
0.15kg Midnight Wheat (Briess) (3%)
0.1kg Acidulated (Wey) (2%)

10g Hall Mitt + 15g Spalt + 15g EKG all @FWH

35/55/63/66/72/78 for 1/5/65/20/20/2
Probably 2 decoctions - 1st is 35->55, 2nd is either 63->66 or 66->72. Maybe even do 3!

Yeast = S-189, fermented ~15°C
------------------------------------------------

So the main concerns are:

1) *Aromatic malt*. Is this Aromatic a silly idea? and if not too silly, is it better to use Aromatic or Biscuit?
The idea with Aromatic is to amplify the maltiness a bit more, and add a little more complexity - i want to be salivating on the first whiff!!. Biscuit was another option, and was tempting to add a little toastiness, but went with Aromatic instead.
*This is probably the main thing i have doubts over with the recipe: Aromatic, Biscuit, something else, or just more Munich?*

2) *no pilsner*. Many MD recipes don't use pilsner, so i thought i'd go with straight Munich. Also, i foolishly just tossed the last kg of Munich2 into my Irish Red currently mashing, rather than save it for this. So i thought the Viking Munich may be a little on the light side compared to the typical Munich mix used in those MDs that have a decent %-age of pilsner malt included.

3) *3% Melanoiden*. It's a bit, but not much. Use more?

4) *No crystal*. Happy to keep it crystal free, though i certainly enjoy crystal in some beers. Partly keeping it out as i already have 4 malts in there plus Acidulated, so i'm trying hard to not throw too many things in there.

5) *Number of malts used*. As per 4), i'm using 4 malts plus Acidulated. As manticle is familiar, i have a serious problem of throwing in too many malts into any recipe. And i've generally come to recognise that most beer styles seem to be best when just a few malts are used and they're allowed to shine. So, I'm not entirely sure if i've got too many in this and it'll be a bit "muddied"; or if (like a stout) it's a style that can benefit from a few extra spec malts and i should either increase the amounts of what i've got in there already, or add something i've missed.


Otherwise, i think i'm pretty happy with the way it's looking at the moment but any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## technobabble66 (29/7/16)

OK. Since the above post (& overwhelming response h34r: ), the recipe has evolved a little.

It's basically 85% Munich, plus 15% split between Biscuit (300g), Melanoiden (150g), Midnight wheat & Acidulated; with hopefully 1-2 decoctions & S-189 for the yeast.

*The big question i have is should i split the 85% Munich with a little Pilsner, say 0.5kg(10%)?*

I'm keen to keep that base as all Munich, but i'm a little concerned with achieving full conversion & attenuation to get a nice dry MD. I'm after a very malty but dry MD.
My concern is generated from ~all of the "no Pilsner" MDs i've seen basically have just Munich (1&/or 2) with 1-3% dark roast for colour. Whereas the ones with some other/extra specs seem to also include the use of 10-20% Pils malt - though that could be because they're following the "kitchen sink" philosophy.

FWIW, a quick calculation indicates the recipe should achieve ~41.5°Lintner, which is over the critical 40°Lintner that theoretically full conversion, though it's cutting it fine.
Also, i'm assuming the 1-2 decoctions will help with conversion and may compensate for the lack of extra enzymatic power from the base.

Any opinions/suggestions?


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## kaiserben (29/7/16)

Probably just re-hashing what I already posted in this thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91233-all-munich-dunkel-anyone-got-advice-they-wanna-share/

No pils in my dunkel recipe. I wanted just Munich 1 and Carafa Special 2. Was too light in colour so I added in some CaraMunich and CaraAroma till colour was within style guidelines. I was very happy with my resulting beer (though it took 3 months of conditioning to before it became amazing).


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## technobabble66 (29/7/16)

Ok. Thanks kb!
So you were 9-10% (non-roasted) spec malt. Similar to mine, so thunderbirds are go!
Cheers


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## yankinoz (31/7/16)

I've aimed more for the Czech Dunkel style but less sweet and have done several along the same lines: Weyermann Munich 2 and enough pilsner malt to assure conversion of specialty malts: Caramunich III and Shepherd's Delight at roughly five percent each. Hochkurz mash, often with intermediate step at 65 to reduce sweetness. There is a slight hint of roast, and on lagering the SD fruitiness rounds into a rich maltiness. S-189 works very well. Hops mainly for bittering, nothing later than -15 minutes. Continental noble hops, Mt Hood, Liberty, even EKG or Willamette.


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## yankinoz (31/7/16)

mika said:


> How lig
> 
> JW = Joe White. Local Australian Maltster, not suprised you haven't heard of it on the international scale, it's cheap for a reason.
> 
> Edit: Damn keys on the board too close together.


I've never used JW Munich. I've had often good but inconsistent results with other of their maltshttp://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/substandard-malt-by-joe-white-leaves-brewers-bitter/news-story/d872f5ec946a0511744cd61dbd47b2a5, but recall there was a double ownership switch and many complaints over quality back in 2013 and 2014:


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## technobabble66 (31/8/16)

Ok, my first MD, & i'm not sure if i've got a stuck fermentation, or if my decoctions have added a truckload of unfermentables: It's flatlined at 1.014 :unsure:

I did the MD similar to post #157:
OG= 1.015
FG=1.010
88% Munich
6% Biscuit
3% Melanoiden
3% Midnight wheat
20g Hall Mitt & Spalt each at FWH, 10g Hall Mitt + 15g Spalt @ 20mins/cube.
35/55/64/72/78 for -/5/90/20/5
2 decoctions: 35-->55, 64-->72
1st decoction, 6L stepped 55/63/68 for 5/10/40 then boiled for 40mins
2nd decoction, 4L taken from 64°C, so boiled directly for 30mins.
Yeast = S-189 (2nd use of yeast cake, so full pitch)

This was pitched at 16°C, allowed to drop to 13°C overnight, then steadily ramped a degree a day to 17°C and held there. Fermentation flatlined by day 7 as hasn't moved since (6 days now).
Predicted FG = 1.010
Measured FG = 1.014
so a reasonable difference (67% attenuation cf 75%), but not catastrophic.

TBH, it's tasting pretty damn good out of the FV, but i'm curious as the whether an extra point or 2 of attenuation would provide a better dryness or if the higher finish is best for this style.


So, do other people have similar results with decoctions?
Should the decoction add such a significantly higher amount of unfermentables?


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