# Kegmenter Technique



## pcqypcqy (29/11/16)

I haven't seen lots on here covering the general technique of using a kegmenter or similar to ferment under pressure, and all the associated work that goes along with that.

There are two main threads I've seen that deal with the product side of things, but only slightly touch on the techniques involved. 
1. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/92677-ferment-condition-and-pressurise-in-one-vessel/ , and 
2. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89407-kegmenter-are-they-good-to-use/

So I thought I'd start this and hopefully we can build up a body of knowledge on the subject.


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## pcqypcqy (29/11/16)

To kick it off, I'm doing a pale ale / IPA sort of thing at the moment. Pitched on Saturday, it's now currently sitting at 15 psi. Chamber has been set to 18°C +/- 1° the whole time.

Looking for guidance on a few things:

Running this at a higher temp for a quicker ferment
What pressure to set the valve to to get reasonable carbonation. i.e. 15 psi at ferment temps is not going to be fully carbonated when chilled.
re point 2 above, can/should I run it at 15 psi for a few days, and then close the valve so that I get it up to 25psi or so, so that when I crash chill it's about fully carbonated?


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## sp0rk (29/11/16)

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75447-pressurized-fermentation/


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## rude (29/11/16)

1 yes

2 30psi

3 yes

Just did a Kolcsh @ 20 c but keg never held pressure still tasted alright out of fermenter


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## mtb (29/11/16)

rude said:


> Just did a Kolcsh @ 20 c but keg never held pressure still tasted alright out of fermenter


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean you've never fermented under pressure? Might as well have just used a typical fermenter.


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## pcqypcqy (29/11/16)

sp0rk said:


> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75447-pressurized-fermentation/


Cheers Spork, of course I found that one AFTER I had posted this. Had a good read through and there's some stuff in there, but it was all a few years ago and the Keg King Kegmenter and spunding valves weren't really a thing back then, so I'm still keen to collate everyone's knowledge that's been developed since then.


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## rude (29/11/16)

mtb said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean you've never fermented under pressure? Might as well have just used a typical fermenter.


You are correct but I was trying to pressure ferment had a leak

Normal fermenter is plastic at least it was in SS this time 

also transfer was a plus

I thought 20 c would have been ester city but was'nt too bad carbing as we speak


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## osprey brewday (29/11/16)

Any else find the spunding valves keg king sell a bit of a pain to set. Tried my first pressure ferment on the weekend seem to keep having to adjust the valve to maintain the same pressure.Ended up just removing it and using a blow off tube. May look at a solonoid and pressure control option for the next brew to ensure accurate pressure maintained.


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## malt junkie (29/11/16)

osprey brewday said:


> Any else find the spunding valves keg king sell a bit of a pain to set. Tried my first pressure ferment on the weekend seem to keep having to adjust the valve to maintain the same pressure.Ended up just removing it and using a blow off tube. May look at a solonoid and pressure control option for the next brew to ensure accurate pressure maintained.


If you go the solenoid option

Auber do a controller 
your going to have to 'jet' the output, get the jetting just right and you won't undershoot too much 1mm hole might be close


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## pcqypcqy (30/11/16)

osprey brewday said:


> Any else find the spunding valves keg king sell a bit of a pain to set. Tried my first pressure ferment on the weekend seem to keep having to adjust the valve to maintain the same pressure.Ended up just removing it and using a blow off tube. May look at a solonoid and pressure control option for the next brew to ensure accurate pressure maintained.


Yes. First brew it was a pain. Ended up pulling apart and cleaning because I had a blow out of krausen.

On my second brew, it seems to be less temperamental. Only one or two adjustments and it's holding a steady 15psi for a few days now.

I think it just needs breaking in, maybe a bit of keg lube in there to help it slide.


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## pcqypcqy (30/11/16)

Also wondering about dry hopping. I have 100g of Citra to put in here soon. 

Is dry hopping after primary ferment as big a consideration in a kegmenter, or does the pressurised nature of it help prevent those aromas escaping?

Dry hop in the kegmenter, or in a corny? I guess if I had a spare corny (which I might), I could transfer once into a purged corny that has a weighted hop bag in it, leave it for the desired time, then transfer again to a second purged corny. 

Though with this particular brew I think I have more than 1 corny's worth of beer so that won't work. Straight into the kegmenter and re-pressurise the headspace?


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## osprey brewday (30/11/16)

I was just going to degas the head space lift the lid tip the dry hops in then seal it up. Worked out you can push co2 through the dip tube to give it all a bit of a stir up and raise back up to desired pressure. If degassed fairly slowly foaming should not be an issue.


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## goldstar (30/11/16)

I'm currently trying with the dry hops going in right at the start of the ferment prior to the spunding valve being fitted, as it is obviously a pain once sealed and pressurised. I also have struggled with finding a steady equilibrium with the kegking spunding set-up. More-so that it doesn't want to vent without gentle adjustment quite regularly. I was also contemplating keg lube.

I've been fermenting ales at around 24degC at around 15psi (limited by the kegking pressure gauge). I've just ordered a replacement gauge that measures up to 60psi allowing greater visibility around the 20-30 psi range.


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## Coldspace (30/11/16)

I haven't dried hop but would use a hop bag.

I have used finnings, depressurised, opened, tip in finning solution and reseal straight away.. I re-pressurised to 15 psi and burbed the release valve a couple of times to clear any air that may have seeped in, but if added quickly and resealed bugger all would have gone into it .
I then rocked it a little to stir finning through. Seemed to work excellent.

The spunding valve, what I do is pitch yeast, have it wound right in. About 24 hrs later as pressure rises right up, I back it off very slowly to you hear the slight hiss, I mean just slight. You may need to put your ear next to the outlet to hear it. It seems to work ok, it will be near impossible to get exact pressure release but 9-13 psi is fine. Easier to let pressure build up at the very start and when ferment is away then 24 hrs in back it off very slowly to the hiss starts...

It seems to creep back to approx 10-13 psi. This is perfect. Once hissing has stopped usually 4-7 days after pitching depending on grav and yeast, oxygen addition etc, wind the valve back in and let it rise and finish the ferment off over last couple of days. You can check grav by purging a little with a pluto gun or similar into jug and allow to warm a little and degas itself over a couple of hours before checking grav.

If grav is good, then if doing lagers like I do or ales which I will try one, you can then slowly over about 3 days bring temp back to cc or 0 and fine or straight away or pressure filter after several days to a week.which is what I do. My latest helles is smack on 2 weeks from grain to brain, mashed, fermented week 1, cc for a week and pressure filter. Turned out excellent with no detectable flaws.. It will mellow alittle in the next couple of weeks in the cornies but was totally acceptable to serve up. This was pitched onto a yeast cake I left in the kegmenter from the week before and O2 was injected in.

I have run my last and first 2 lagers through this thing at the bottom of recommended yeast temp of 34/70 at 12 and raised upto the higher range of temp for that yeast of 15 slowly in the last few days of week 1. Especially when I used the big cake on batch 2, and using O2 as well.
No need to run at higher temps, I recon stay inside the ideal range of the yeast been used.
I have bought a second spunding valve and added a larger gauge, but only click it on when final pressure goes past 15 psi.
Works a treat.


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## zeggie (30/11/16)

For those who've bought higher psi gauges, can you share the links where you bought them from?

I too find the KK spunding valve a bit of a pain. Wish there was a more accurate alternative.


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## pcqypcqy (1/12/16)

osprey brewday said:


> I was just going to degas the head space lift the lid tip the dry hops in then seal it up. Worked out you can push co2 through the dip tube to give it all a bit of a stir up and raise back up to desired pressure. If degassed fairly slowly foaming should not be an issue.


Not following why you're using the dip tube to re-gas - can you not just use the gas post?


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## Mardoo (1/12/16)

I'm working my way towards pressurised ferments, particularly for IPA's. I have the kegs, just need the spunding valves. ATM I'm primarily interested in oxygen exclusion, rather than ester reduction. 

Just completed my first pressurised dry hop and am VERY happy with the results. This is the closest I've ever gotten to the hop presence in commercial IPA's. I just cut one dip tube especially short. Worked pretty well, although I dry hopped so hard that the hops were just barely below the end of the pickup tube. 

I've had a few major misses from KK and have been considering building my own spunding valves. This guy's page lays out the bits needed and gives links to Amazon to buy them. I'm sure all the bits can be found on eBay, although I'm inclined to go with Aussie or US suppliers for the relief valve and gauge. 

http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/

http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/


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## Mardoo (1/12/16)

pcqypcqy said:


> Not following why you're using the dip tube to re-gas - can you not just use the gas post?


To give it a bit of a stir up. I just did this a couple times during my dry hop. The CO2 bubbling through the wort re-suspends the hop material.


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## pcqypcqy (1/12/16)

Mardoo said:


> To give it a bit of a stir up. I just did this a couple times during my dry hop. The CO2 bubbling through the wort re-suspends the hop material.


OK, fair enough. Not something I had considered, but might work. Is there much aroma left for hop material to contribute once it has settled out like that though?


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## Mardoo (1/12/16)

I can't say how long aroma remains in the hop material. However one of the big US craft brewers - IIRC Stone or Russian River - commissioned an independent scientific study on dry hopping. The results of the study showed that the longer dry hop material remains in suspension, the greater the amount that hop flavour and aroma are transferred to the beer.

Part of the study was looking at hop pellet density, and it showed that lighter, less packed pellets stayed afloat longer. The bubbling is my first attempt at experimenting with the results of the study.


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## pcqypcqy (1/12/16)

Interested to see how it goes.


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## nosco (1/12/16)

I just got a KK spunding valve off ebay from Country Trader i think. Free delivery.


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## nosco (1/12/16)

Mardoo said:


> I've had a few major misses from KK and have been considering building my own spunding valves. This guy's page lays out the bits needed and gives links to Amazon to buy them. I'm sure all the bits can be found on eBay, although I'm inclined to go with Aussie or US suppliers for the relief valve and gauge.
> 
> http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/
> 
> http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/


I have seen that page before but found the amazon sellers dont ship to Oz. It would be good to see if you can source them elsewhere.


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## zeggie (1/12/16)

That link was great just read this bit and will start doing this. Then I know the spunding valve is always at my desired psi

"Since almost all spunding valves have a knob that is disconnected from any useful scale it can be hard to know what your valve is set at. My approach is to connect my valve to my co2 tank in order to test it. Start with your spunding valve turned up above your ideal pressure and your regulator set to your ideal pressure. Slowly lower the spunding valve until it releases pressure. Once it is on the keg you can make small changes to the knob, but this approach will get you in the ballpark much quicker."


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## Mardoo (1/12/16)

nosco said:


> I have seen that page before but found the amazon sellers dont ship to Oz. It would be good to see if you can source them elsewhere.


I'll post when I do. I need to get them on my Christmas list, but am focused on VIC case swap preparations and swap for the next few days.


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## pcqypcqy (1/12/16)

zeggie said:


> That link was great just read this bit and will start doing this. Then I know the spunding valve is always at my desired psi
> 
> "Since almost all spunding valves have a knob that is disconnected from any useful scale it can be hard to know what your valve is set at. My approach is to connect my valve to my co2 tank in order to test it. Start with your spunding valve turned up above your ideal pressure and your regulator set to your ideal pressure. Slowly lower the spunding valve until it releases pressure. Once it is on the keg you can make small changes to the knob, but this approach will get you in the ballpark much quicker."


Is this the point of his gauge and the gauge on the KK valves? Or does he mean he's testing the calibration of his gauge.


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## Mardoo (1/12/16)

He's setting the release point as I understand it.


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## zeggie (1/12/16)

Mardoo said:


> He's setting the release point as I understand it.


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## Beersuit (1/12/16)

Setting the release point as I understand it. This has been my approach and it seems to work fine. 

What's wrong with dry hopping and fining in the serving keg?


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## Mardoo (2/12/16)

Never fined in the serving keg, but I often keg hop as well as, or instead of dry hopping. Never fined in the serving keg, but I do use isinglass to fine, so maybe I already am


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## pcqypcqy (2/12/16)

This morning I decided to dry hop with loose pellets in the keg. I figure I've chopped 20mm off my dip tube, and I'm not sure the yeast cake is going to be that high on a 6 gallon batch, so I figured make use of this dead space and fill it with hop matter. 

I just de-gassed, popped the lid, through them in, then re-pressurised off my gas cylinder.

Will leave it sit for a few days then crash chill and transfer on Sunday probably. See how it goes.


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## Mardoo (2/12/16)

Be sure to burp off any oxygen any time you open the kegmenter.


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## goldstar (2/12/16)

zeggie said:


> For those who've bought higher psi gauges, can you share the links where you bought them from?
> 
> I too find the KK spunding valve a bit of a pain. Wish there was a more accurate alternative.


I got mine through RS Online. It was only $15.


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## Futur (4/12/16)

goldstar said:


> I got mine through RS Online. It was only $15.


Which gauge did you end up going with? I'm not sure of the thread and size of the correct gauge to use.


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## pcqypcqy (12/12/16)

Brewed a batch if IPA that ended up being 28 litres in the end, wouldn't have thought I'd have any krausen issues with this.

So wondered why this morning I had liquid coming out the spunding valve.

Worked it out - I had put the spunding valve on the correct post, but when I cleaned/sanitised earlier I must have put the gas post onto the liquid dip tube.

Oops.


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