# Professional Vs Amateur - Competitions



## brendanos (24/1/11)

So I guess this is a somewhat self indulgent thread/poll, but it is a question that has been put to me many times in the last 12 months while studying brewing and entering into the professional brewing world and seems to be one that splits the crowd so thought it would be nice to hear some opinions.

At the crux of the dilemma are the words "professional" and "amateur". The difference being a professional seeks profit in their field. By definition I believe I am both - I have very much been an amateur for the last 6 years, and even as a commercial brewer I do not feel like I am seeking a profit. My homebrews are still homebrews - brewed in plastic buckets in my laundry, absolutely unrelated to what I do at work, though many have expressed the opinion that I have an unfair advantage over other homebrewers, and I was recently informed that I was not eligible to win a local homebrew comp as it was promoted as "amateur". I know homebrewers with fancier systems than some commercial brewers, and many homebrewers with much more technical knowledge.

Last year it did feel a little strange winning awards like "best amateur beer of show" and "runner up champion amateur brewer" so I'd like to know where others stand on this (especially those involved with organising/running competitions). Do I have a right to enter these comps? Should I feel guilty about it? I've always enjoyed competing in things, like to know I'm competing against the best, & I can hardly enter my homebrews in professsional/commercial comps so if I can't enter amateur comps then where do I go?


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## mckenry (24/1/11)

I believe so. If you havent utilised any gear from work, then why not? Knowledge is all up to the individual, so thats hardly an argument. I think amateur means, it's not from a commercial batch. I wouldnt mind if you were in my comp. Besides, beating a pro - now there's bragging rights.


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## ashley_leask (24/1/11)

I voted yes too, on the same assumption it's not brewed in your professional premises.

ETA: My reasoning is there's nothing stopping any of us amateurs from acquiring a professional level of knowledge, but if you're using professional gear of a type that amateurs won't have access to, then that would be unfair.


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## bradsbrew (24/1/11)

Cant see why you shouldnt be allowed to enter a beer that was made on your gear in your home that your not selling.

Using a FWK to enter a comp, well thats another story.

Cheers


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## DU99 (24/1/11)

i cant see why not ,be different if CUB was entering stuff of the production line


> I know homebrewers with fancier systems than some commercial brewers, and many homebrewers with much more technical knowledge.


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## outbreak (24/1/11)

I initially thought no, then I thought to myself you arent dealing with professional gear and are doing it at home like the rest of us. However, I am assuming you are a professional brewer, its your job you do it every day. Its like on Master Chef, pro chefs couldnt enter (not sure if thats a valid comparison)

Long story short... technically speaking id say no, but my general opinion would be yes. If your beers are great and you win comps you will be forcing us other guys to research more and make better beer which will take the comps to higher levels.


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## Spoonta (24/1/11)

cant see why not mate


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## keifer33 (24/1/11)

I think they are just jealous. Without your job you are still an amateur brewer (no offence) as you are not in it to make money. If you are not brewing using a professional premises then surely you are brewing in your own time as a hobby thus making you an amateur with a sheetload of knowledge.


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## Fuggle (24/1/11)

Kmon Guys,

How can someone who gets paid to make beer, be allowed to enter a "COMPETITION" against guys who "DON'T" get paid to brew ?????????????????????????????????


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## brendo (24/1/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Using a FWK to enter a comp, well thats another story.



Why?? how is this any different to someone who enters using a kit? The wort is still essentially created by someone else in both scenarios, however the individual is responsible for fermenting it (including yeast choice) and finishing the wort (steeping more grain, late/dry hop).


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## RobW (24/1/11)

I don't see a problem if you use your own gear to make it.

What about amateurs using a BOP and entering that in a comp?


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## drew9242 (24/1/11)

I would say no. Bit harsh for your scernario, but they are called amateur comps. So the organizers would have to draw the line somwhere. And being an amateur comp you do have a unfair advantage due to all the experience you get.


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## Tanga (24/1/11)

Another Ash said:


> I voted yes too, on the same assumption it's not brewed in your professional premises.
> 
> ETA: My reasoning is there's nothing stopping any of us amateurs from acquiring a professional level of knowledge, but if you're using professional gear of a type that amateurs won't have access to, then that would be unfair.



This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter too.

Congrats on the prizes dude =).


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## shavey147 (24/1/11)

Fuggle said:


> Kmon Guys,
> 
> How can someone who gets paid to make beer, be allowed to enter a "COMPETITION" against guys who "DON'T" get paid to brew ?????????????????????????????????



Getting paid to do something doesn't immediately make you an expert at it & I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that would have close to the same level of knowledge of brewing as some commercial brewers.

I have agree with the general consensus on this one and say that, provided your homebrew isn't brewed on commercial gear, I don't see any reason why you should be excluded from amateur competitions.


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## brendanos (24/1/11)

Cheers for the feedback so far guys.

Fuggle - could you elaborate further as to your reasoning? Where else could I compete?

Hypothetically, what if I took my system to work? What if I used the pH meter because mine was broken?


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## brendanos (24/1/11)

I'm not convinced that knowledge or experience is unfair - as if you take your hobby seriously (as most amatuer's would) you can learn just as much as the next guy.

Should the disinction be on the brewer or the beer? The beers aren't produced for commercial reasons.

As a counterpoint, I have always homebrewed as a means of learning more about beer under the pretense of making a career of it - so have I really ever been an amateur?


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

I voted yes on the provisor that no "work" equipment OR ingredients were used. 
For example, it would be rather unfair if certain hops used by a commercial brewery (not available to homebrewers in general) were used in a comp. This would also apply to yeast strains, water, malt and of course pH meters.

GF


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## felten (24/1/11)

You should be allowed to enter your homebrew in a homebrew competition, apart from knowledge and experience I don't seen how a commercial brewer has any sort of massive advantage over anyone else who can accumulate the same knowledge and experience using their own gear. Now if you were entering commercial beer as your own that is a different story, and there is different competitions just for such a thing.

Ingredients and equipment available to breweries are also available to homebrewers (in some form), many homebrewers have a mini lab and testing equipment for pH/DO/tds and so on, and they're freely available to purchase. And those things still aren't a massive advantage, how often do you see people place in competitions that are using extracts and their entry level homebrew kit w/ dry yeast, it's more about a brewer's skill (and maybe the judges) than any sort of degree or equipment.

whether they let you win a prize though I guess is up to them


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## Boondy (24/1/11)

I think I'll abstain on this one. 

Obviously, it centres around the word "Amateur", so the intent of the competition organiser should define eligibility or otherwise.

Personally, I have no problems so long as there is no unfair advantage being used, but I understand that some people would take issue, and can understand why.

It's comfortable sitting up here on the fence...


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## drew9242 (24/1/11)

So are you saying that the knowledge and experience you have learnt to become a professional brewer (and of course the experience you have in the indursty), does not give others an unfair advantage, because every one can access this knowledge. 

I can't see how that works. For one i would hope if i went to beer courses and worked as a brewer full time, that i become a shit load better then i am now. Due to the fact i can do it 40 hours a week. At the moment i can only spare 8 hours a week if i am lucky to do a brew. What i am saying is we can all access the knowledge but professional get a lot more time too do so. 

Once you get paid to do something you are considered a professional at it. If a professional fine furniture maker entered a piece into a amateur comp, even though he made it at home. Would that be fair on the rest???
Or a professional runner enters a amateur comp. Would that be fair on the rest???

For myself it wouldn't bother me if you entered. Mainly because i don't enter too win. But to get some feedback on my beers. But if a competion is for amateurs, you would need to be a amateur. I don't think that just because you come home from work you are all of a sudden an amateur brewer.

Maybe we need a new beer comp for professional brewers brewing at home.


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## Nick JD (24/1/11)

Beer brewed by professionals is nearly always rubbish. 

I think you'll lose - so I wouldn't bother.


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

felten said:


> You should be allowed to enter your homebrew in a homebrew competition, apart from knowledge and experience I don't seen how a commercial brewer has any sort of massive advantage over anyone else who can accumulate the same knowledge and experience using their own gear. Now if you were entering commercial beer as your own that is a different story, and there is different competitions just for such a thing.
> 
> Ingredients and equipment available to breweries are also available to homebrewers (in some form), many homebrewers have a mini lab and testing equipment for pH/DO/tds and so on, and they're freely available to purchase. And those things still aren't a massive advantage, how often do you see people place in competitions that are using extracts and their entry level homebrew kit w/ dry yeast, it's more about a brewer's skill (and maybe the judges) than any sort of degree or equipment.
> 
> whether they let you win a prize though I guess is up to them



Hey Felten,
Commercial breweries certainly get first "dibs" on ingredients (especially hops) and maintain specific cultures of yeast that are not generally availaible. Homebrewers most usually end up with sloppy seconds when it comes to ingredients.

GF


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## warra48 (24/1/11)

It's a *Homebrew* competition we're talking about.

Doing something professionally in your day job doesn't necessarily translate into doing the same thing at home with a homebrew set-up.

I'm retired, but when I was working there were plenty of times when I had it all over the so called "professionals". I well remember the occasion when I received an advice from a prominent and respected firm of solicitors about a certain issue of law. I didn't accept the advice, and replied with a strong argument to the contrary. The solicitors sought the advice of a QC. It seems he was on the same wavelength I was, as he quoted half of my letter of argument in his advice, and accepted the thrust of my submissions. Within 2 years the High Court changed their precedent consistent with my argument.

Being a professional doesn't necessarily mean you have it all correct and produce beer beyond criticism and to the best standard. After all, how many posters on this forum have railed about crap beer produced by "professional" major and boutique breweries? 

So, I voted in favour of allowing them in.


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## felten (24/1/11)

> Once you get paid to do something you are considered a professional at it. If a professional fine furniture maker entered a piece into a amateur comp, even though he made it at home. Would that be fair on the rest???
> Or a professional runner enters a amateur comp. Would that be fair on the rest???



What if there is an amateur furniture maker who has been making furniture at home every day as a hobby for the past 15 years and his furniture is just as high quality as a professional furniture maker yet he doesn't sell it to anyone, would he not be allowed to enter or win prizes because he knows how to make a great piece of furniture?

The furniture would probably taste pretty bad either way. 

At the end of the day it's up to the competition organisers to make up the rules and if you choose to enter the comp you have to follow them.



gone_fishing_ said:


> Hey Felten,
> Commercial breweries certainly get first "dibs" on ingredients (especially hops) and maintain specific cultures of yeast that are not generally availaible. Homebrewers most usually end up with sloppy seconds when it comes to ingredients.
> 
> GF


So the many hops and grains you can purchase from around the world, and the many yeast strains you can purchase from white labs/wyeast are all scraps? I don't buy that. I'm sure the macro breweries have access to ingredients that homebrews usually don't have access to. But many micro breweries are using the same simpson/weyermann sacks of grain and so on that you can purchase from the LHBS. (anyway this is a bit of a side track to the OP's question)


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

felten said:


> What if there is an amateur furniture maker who has been making furniture at home every day as a hobby for the past 15 years and his furniture is just as high quality as a professional furniture maker yet he doesn't sell it to anyone, would he not be allowed to enter or win prizes because he knows how to make a great piece of furniture?
> 
> The furniture would probably taste pretty bad either way.
> 
> At the end of the day it's up to the competition organisers to make up the rules and if you choose to enter the comp you have to follow them.



I agree so long as the same furniture maker did not use tools or materials from the "factory".
GF


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## Nick JD (24/1/11)

What about having a professional helping you brew? Is that okay? 

He'd be like, "Pour in the sucrose ... nah, more! MORE SUCROSE!" Then he'd be like, "Chuck those hop flowers, mate - we'll use these HOPS IN A BEAKER!"


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## randyrob (24/1/11)

I voted YES, May the best beer win. 

at the end of the day the yeast make the beer, so a potential loophole could be if said brewer's partner wasn't a professional brewer why wouldn't you just get them to pitch the yeast


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## manticle (24/1/11)

Fuggle said:


> Kmon Guys,
> 
> How can someone who gets paid to make beer, be allowed to enter a "COMPETITION" against guys who "DON'T" get paid to brew ?????????????????????????????????



The same way someone from the Australian hockey or cricket or judo teams can still play top level amateur sport.

If CUB brewed the beer or if Fents used the Kooinda team and brewery to make his homebrewed beer then that would be cheating.

It's homebrew so if it's brewed at home then its eligible. It's not like the prizes are 7 weeks in Europe or a 3 million dollar cheque.


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## drew9242 (24/1/11)

felten said:


> What if there is an amateur furniture maker who has been making furniture at home every day as a hobby for the past 15 years and his furniture is just as high quality as a professional furniture maker yet he doesn't sell it to anyone, would he not be allowed to enter or win prizes because he knows how to make a great piece of furniture?
> 
> The furniture would probably taste pretty bad either way.
> 
> At the end of the day it's up to the competition organisers to make up the rules and if you choose to enter the comp you have to follow them.



Well he is a very lucky man for being able to do his hobby full time without worry about food or bills. But yes of course you could enter it because he is a amateur. I think many homebrewers will make a beer better then the professionals. But because they don't sell it, they are just good amateurs, which is why they are entering the comp.

definition of amateur: a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons.

So really the question is because he does it at home and makes no money out of the beer, can he then enter it into a amatuer comp?

Tough one especially when most comps have trophys and prize money. Thats when some people might get a bit worked up.


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## KillerRx4 (24/1/11)

Drew9242 said:


> definition of amateur: a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons.




Can one be both? Amateur homebrewer for many years, one day taking on a day job as a pro brewer....

If he continues to brew at home on the same level as he did before being employed as a brewer, surely that still is eligible to enter homebrew comps.


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## DU99 (24/1/11)

In the end its the judges who decide its merits whether its good or excellent or just drinkable


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## drew9242 (24/1/11)

KillerRx4 said:


> Can one be both?



Well that is the big question. And one each comp would need to sort out.


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## beers (24/1/11)

Seems to me that the real question is "should the term 'amateur' be removed from the title of competitions?"


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## schooey (24/1/11)

They shouldn't be allowed to... just the same as the argument that kit beers shouldn't be judged with the AG beers.... for goodness sake, they might win and make us all look bad!

Same logic...


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## white.grant (24/1/11)

Don't forget that there are a few pros on this forum who teach us everything we knew. 

cheers

grant


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## beers (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> They shouldn't be allowed to... just the same as the argument that kit beers shouldn't be judged with the AG beers.... for goodness sake, they might win and make us all look bad!
> 
> Same logic...



Should AG beers be allowed to be entered into "kit beer only" categories, or vice versa?


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## schooey (24/1/11)

beers said:


> Should AG beers be allowed to be entered into "kit beer only" categories, or vice versa?




Why do we need a kit or AG category? Just give it a style, open it to everyone and judge it


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## beers (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> Why do we need a kit or AG category?



Exactly. I'm all for it being changed. However you won't see me entering in any "professional" comps... but maybe that's just me.


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> Why do we need a kit or AG category? Just give it a style, open it to everyone and judge it




Plenty of kit beers entered in "open" categories. The rule is that AG NOT entered into kit.

Same should apply to Pro brewers. If they can stand by their heart that NOTHING in their setup was supplied by a commercial brewery then they should be able to enter.

This point brings up another point. I wonder how many K&K brewers have done a mini-mash, entered as a "kit" and won?
GF


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## schooey (24/1/11)

But why have a kit only category? I have seen, and tasted, many kit beers that have won categories in comps. AABC don't disseminate between kit and AG, you just enter a beer.


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## browndog (24/1/11)

I voted yes, you definintely are a professional brewer as you do it for a living, but I could not give a toss about that, as long as you brew at home then it's all good by me. Knowing there are pros entering comps just makes it feel even better when you get a place  

I don't agree with fresh wort kits though. 

cheers

Browndog


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## barls (24/1/11)

i remember a similar argument a couple of years ago about should k&k be in the same comps as ag. this came up after someone won a comp with a kit and soooo many bleated it was funny, was even funnier when the guy posted the recipe which could be compared to shuttle launch procedures. could be the same with fresh wort kits.

personally i dont see a problem depending on the conditions laid down by the people running the comps.


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> But why have a kit only category? I have seen, and tasted, many kit beers that have won categories in comps.



It does happen occasionally like floods and earthquakes. Not the norm though. I suspect the classification is to encourage those brewers who only use kits to "haveago"

Interesting that I sat at a table of a winning "kit" brewer at a comp. He went on and on and onabout how kits can win comps. It was only once i asked him how he made such a fantastic beer that he revealed that you just add steeped grain mixtures and hops  . 

Its akin to "amateur" brewers using commercial brewery ingredients or equipment to score well in a comp. I would call it cheating  
GF


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## barls (24/1/11)

gone_fishing_ said:


> It does happen occasionally like floods and earthquakes. Not the norm though. I suspect the classification is to encourage those brewers who only use kits to "haveago"
> 
> Interesting that I sat at a table of a winning "kit" brewer at a comp. He went on and on and onabout how kits can win comps. It was only once i asked him how he made such a fantastic beer that he revealed that you just add steeped grain mixtures and hops  .
> 
> ...


i got a highly commended in the last castle hill, one point off 3rd, with a kit beer made to the recipe on the can and a different yeast.
it does happen


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## beers (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> But why have a kit only category?





schooey said:


> just the same as the argument that kit beers shouldn't be judged with the AG beers.



My point was that I found your logic a little wonky. By all means if someone wants to organise, & advertise, a competion or category as Kit (or AG for that matter) only, then so be it. If I choose to enter I will enter to those rules / categories.
The OP has stated that he got pinged for entering a beer into a competition labelled as an "amateur" competition. Should a "professional" brewer be allowed to enter into an amateur competition? IMO, no. Don't get me wrong - as an amateur brewer I have no problem competing against professional brewers in competition.. I just feel if a competition (or category for that matter) is labelled one way then a bit of respect should be given. Again, I wouldn't care if the AABC changed to the ABC. I just think the original question should be aimed in a different direction.


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## browndog (24/1/11)

I guess the simple answer is for competition organisers to drop the word amateur from their competition names and just make it a (home) brewing competition.


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## schooey (24/1/11)

beers said:


> My point was that I found your logic a little wonky. By all means if someone wants to organise, & advertise, a competion or category as Kit (or AG for that matter) only, then so be it. If I choose to enter I will enter to those rules / categories.
> The OP has stated that he got pinged for entering a beer into a competition labelled as an "amateur" competition. Should a "professional" brewer be allowed to enter into an amateur competition? IMO, no. Don't get me wrong - as an amateur brewer I have no problem competing against professional brewers in competition.. I just feel if a competition (or category for that matter) is labelled one way then a bit of respect should be given. Again, I wouldn't care if the AABC changed to the ABC. I just think the original question should be aimed in a different direction.




Err..my first comment was sarcasm. 

It was based on what barls has just mentioned; about AG brewers arguing that kit beers shouldn't be judged with theirs. I say why the hell not? The same as why a pro brewer should be allowed to enter an amateur comp. Yes, given that they are using 'homebrewing' style equipment... but with the brewing equipment available to the average homebrewer these days, I'm not even sure how relevant that is.

Many head brewers at craft breweries often brew on their pilot systems for new ideas, run inter staff mini comps etc etc. I don't see any logic in excluding them, except for the whiny 'but they might beat me' argument. Same as the kit beer thing...


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## beers (24/1/11)

browndog said:


> I guess the simple answer is for competition organisers to drop the word amateur from their competition names and just make it a (home) brewing competition.



+1


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## Cocko (24/1/11)

browndog said:


> I guess the simple answer is for competition organisers to drop the word amateur from their competition names and just make it a (home) brewing competition.




So you are saying there is a 'professional HOME brewer' than? What would classify a home brewer as 'professional' ?

If it is brewed at home, as stated, we are all on a level playing field - knowledge is up to you, equipment is up to you but the overall result is = you make beer at home for no other reason than to drink yourself and/or explore the world of how and why beer is made in certain ways...


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## browndog (24/1/11)

Cocko said:


> So you are saying there is a 'professional HOME brewer' than? What would classify a home brewer as 'professional' ?
> 
> If it is brewed at home, as stated, we are all on a level playing field - knowledge is up to you, equipment is up to you but the overall result is = you make beer at home for no other reason than to drink yourself and/or explore the world of how and why beer is made in certain ways...




No, what I am saying is if they dropped the word amateur then no one could complain about pro's entering, the emphasis is on the word home.


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> Err..my first comment was sarcasm.
> 
> It was based on what barls has just mentioned; about AG brewers arguing that kit beers shouldn't be judged with theirs. I say why the hell not?



Hi Schooey,

But Kits are judged with AG beers everytime. Its the AG not allowed in kit section.

I couldnt give a rats scrotum if a Pro brewer personally entered a HB competition with their own ingredients and equipment. Now if that same brewer "piped" off some fresh wort from "his" day job brewery, then that would be a different matter. That would be similar to me grabbing a longneck of Carlton Draught, soaking the label off and entering as an Australian Lager.

On another tact, I know a commercial brewer who just happened to be a very good homebrewer. However, that person was a very good homebrewer before they became a commercial brewer. As far as I know, that person has not entered HB comps since they became commercially involved in brewing.

Finally, if a person embarks on a career as a Master Brewer, they must also bear in mind that if they continue to enter HB comps, to prepare themselves for ridicule.
GF


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## DU99 (24/1/11)

A professional is a person that is paid for what they do. Qualifications have little to do with being a professional as the world's "oldest profession" is strictly a monetary gain career. An amateur maybe more qualified than a professional but they are not paid, thus they are an amateur.


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## dent (24/1/11)

At first I thought it might discourage new punters from entering competitions, since "Brendan Brewing, Inc" wins them all so why bother - but then again this happens with the usual suspects at every comp anyhow. So I guess there isn't much difference.

I'd like to see your entries in the pro section of the Perth Royal Beer Show and the like though. I think that side needs some shaking up.


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## Cocko (24/1/11)

browndog said:


> No, what I am saying is if they dropped the word amateur then no one could complain about pro's entering, the emphasis is on the word home.




All good mate, no beef - just miss read your post and, now seeing your point, agree 100%.

Cheers


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## samhaldane (24/1/11)

brendanos said:


> Hypothetically, what if I took my system to work? What if I used the pH meter because mine was broken?



I think brewing on a 'home' system is the same no matter where you are. I'm not sure if the emphasis on 'home' solves the problem in this situation.

I would be fine competing with you in competitions, but competing against another 'pro' like (for example) Brendan Varis? Well, that's a different story. Where do you draw the line?


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

dent said:


> I'd like to see your entries in the pro section of the Perth Royal Beer Show and the like though. I think that side needs some shaking up.



Now that is a good point!!
GF


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## WitWonder (24/1/11)

I voted no, because I'm sick of you winning competitions and now I have a valid excuse for preventing you entering  

I voted yes, because we need someone keeping Asher honest  I don't care as long as it's brewed "at home". As others have said, if they dropped the word amateur and just called them homebrew competitions it probably wouldn't be such an issue. Is Jamil still entering amateur homebrew comps?

At the end of the day people aren't going to be experts at all styles - it takes alot of practice to get a style right and on homebrew setups replicating a beer on demand is pretty difficult. So, just because Brendan has produced an award winning wheat beer in the past doesn't necessarily mean he can pull one out at the right time for a comp. And because beer judging is subjective, that award winning beer he brewed in the past may not win an award next time because the judges are different or because they prefer another entry on the night.


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## felten (25/1/11)

> Is Jamil still entering amateur homebrew comps?


I think he retired a while ago actually


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/1/11)

I think it is totally unfair for Brendon to enter because he gets free beer from work and doesnt have to drink all his comp beers like I do. Come comp time I have no beers and he does, now is that fair ? :lol: 
See you at the PRBS Brendon, I am happy to share the Amateur trophies.
GB


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## brendanos (25/1/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I think it is totally unfair for Brendon to enter because he gets free beer from work and doesnt have to drink all his comp beers like I do. Come comp time I have no beers and he does, now is that fair ? :lol:
> See you at the PRBS Brendon, I am happy to share the Amateur trophies.
> GB



Just make sure you save some this time - I was disheartened by the absence of your beers last year!

Believe me I still drink more expensive craft beer and other people's home brews than free beer or my own brews. Incidentally I give away about a carton of beer away each week....

I'll see that the wording of the PRBS amateur section this year allows my entry


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## petesbrew (25/1/11)

I don't see why you can't enter. I suppose we're going on your word that you've done it in a coopers kit or whatever, and not grabbed one off the bottling line. (but why would you?)

As to the "unfair advantage", I guess it's all relative. Some of us have a bucket & spoon, others have a fully automated system. Some of us have been brewing for 3 months, others for 30 years.

Then there's the recipe debate - did you think this one up from scratch, use one from a recipe book, or just dump in a FWK?

I'm looking forward to getting the tasting notes from the judges these days. The last few comps the notes were a great help. But if I see one of my beers has beaten a pro brewer or a very experienced amateur, it's all good!


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## RdeVjun (25/1/11)

OP, perhaps you'd fare better if the comp was promoted as Pro-Am. While most brew comps aren't delineated as such, I feel professionals would have an unfair advantage. 
As an aside, here in not- so- sunny Qld, QABC (Qld Amateur Brewing Championship) is implicitly an Amateur comp, however the rules don't actually state that it is only open to amateurs, just residents of Qld. I guess that means pros can go hard, FWIW... :blink:


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## hazard (25/1/11)

I voted yes.

1. The definition of preofessional is that you are doing something for money. I assume that no-one is paying you to make home brew, so I reckon you are still an amateur home brewer. In fact, is a *professional home brewer* even possible?? If you make beer in a commercial brewery, when you aren't at home, well so what. Does this mean that every employee of every brewery should be banned from home brew competitions?? I don't think so. 

2. I don't see what advantage you have over anyone on this forum. Anyone can go and do a brewing course, we all choose the amount of time we want to dedicate to this game and if someone chooses to spend less time then they can't say someone who works harder is a cheat. Sort of like cricket - I should be captain of the Australian cricket team, the only reason that Ricky got the job is that he is better than because he practices all the time - he's a cheat by dint of this practice!!!

3. I have seen many people diss VB/ Tooheys/ etc etc etc on this forum. SO how can anyone say that professional brewers have an advantage? If commercial beer was always better thaqn home brew then I would still refer back to point 1 - doesn't matter what you brew at the brewery, what you do in your laundry is a different bucket of wort. But since most of us actually believe home brew is better than commercial beer, why would anyone think that you have an advantage??


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## Bribie G (25/1/11)

:icon_offtopic: My toucan headbanger stout came in the top half of the strong stouts field in the Nats two years ago 

Seeing as a main objective of comps is to improve the quality and range of home brewed beer (and not so much to win the kegerator or the trip) - and I believe that this is definitely what is happening - then maybe there should be a requirement that all entrants are prepared to publish their recipes and procedures. So if someone from a micro wins a class then they can share their secrets with the rest of us.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/1/11)

BribieG said:


> :icon_offtopic: My toucan headbanger stout came in the top half of the strong stouts field in the Nats two years ago
> 
> Seeing as a main objective of comps is to improve the quality and range of home brewed beer (and not so much to win the kegerator or the trip) -


" Kegerator and trips" , shite I am entering the wrong comp. I get pieces of paper and the occasional trophy, you bloody rich Queenslanders.
GB


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## geoff_tewierik (25/1/11)

I have brewed at home, I have brewed in a microbrewery, I am a university qualified microbiologist, I have worked in biotech and in pharma fermenting yeasts.

Does this make me an amateur or a professional?

I consider myself a brewer. Neither amateur nor professional, home or craft, I am just a brewer.

If someone who works for a brewery, and there's a shit load of different jobs at a mega swill brewery these days, brews a beer at home on their own equipment using the same ingredients we all have access to then they are eligible for any amateur comp IMO.

The use of amateur in titles of competitions has been to exclude the professional brewers from entering their beers into the competitions. They have access to a multitude of competitions specifically for brewers to enter like the World Beer Cup and the International Beer Comp, you know ones that brewers like Grand Ridge flooded with entries years ago so they could get awards that were then plastered all over their packaging.


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## Bribie G (25/1/11)




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## bradsbrew (25/1/11)

geoff_tewierik said:


> I am a university qualified microbiologist, I have worked in biotech and in pharma fermenting yeasts.




geez Geoff you dont come across as that well educated. You hide it quite well  :lol:


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## RussTaylor (25/1/11)

ANAWBS has this condition - 2.Only amateur or homemade products may be entered, and all entries must be submitted in the makers name.


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## geoff_tewierik (25/1/11)

bradsbrew said:


> geez Geoff you dont come across as that well educated. You hide it quite well  :lol:



It's always hard to get away from my born and bred bogan roots, and you only see me with a drink or two under my belt, so its even harder to not channel my past.


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## DU99 (25/1/11)

my question is whose going police it if it does happen,what to stop the professional getting there mrs to put in an entry.this is a subject that should be up at the next conference,next thing we will know, people will say judges cant put an entry in the sections they are judging......beerfest is nearly here lets see what pans out..


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## petesbrew (25/1/11)

BribieG said:


> View attachment 43582


Recipe please!!!


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## DU99 (25/1/11)




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## bradsbrew (25/1/11)

brendo said:


> Why?? how is this any different to someone who enters using a kit? The wort is still essentially created by someone else in both scenarios, however the individual is responsible for fermenting it (including yeast choice) and finishing the wort (steeping more grain, late/dry hop).




Yes there is a great deal you can do to a FWK to change ie: adding hops, steeping grains different yeast, different temp etc. But it's called a brewing comp not a fermenting comp. I personally would not feel right if i was to buy a 20L FWK throw it in a fermenter with some yeast and enter that into a brewing comp because I did not brew it, but that is me. 
To me entering a comp is all about the thought process, reading the style guidelines and trying to match ingredients and brewing temps and times with what is expected of the beer in judging, that is the challenge for me.
I also see extract brewing as pretty much the same thing as AG brewing as it is made from unbittered extract and all additions are calculated and made whilst brewing.
And if someone can make an award winning brew using a kit they must have also put a bit of thought into it too.


This is just my opinion. And I enjoy brews from all forms of brewing that I have mentioned, I just dont agree that a full FWK brew should qualify for entry.

Cheers


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## jayse (25/1/11)

Homebrew is homebrew

A couple stupid things to think about, kits, extracts, fresh wort kits are all cool, what if the brewer that brewed them fermented them at home? they have just used their commercial equipment to produce the wort, everyone else can enter it.
If the fresh wort kit or any kit is something they make to sell to homebrewers even if in limited supply, would that be right for the brewer to use it?
Of course pinching 20 odd litres of wort from one of the commercial beers and talking it home would be pretty questionable, but what if you rang up a couple homebrew pals because you actually do have some wort they can have.
Maybe there is a little bit left in the tun at the end of one brew, can you take it home and boil it up for a comp?, maybe not but can you call up your mate and give it to him? maybe, blurry line, fine line, I don't know.

By some peoples reasoning that you can't have used any commercial equipment etc to make the beer then you can't use some of the ingredients that they themselves can.


Its got a few fuzzy areas but if its a homebrew its a homebrew, maybe dr tim might enter a kit one year.


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## Paul H (25/1/11)

bradsbrew said:


> geez Geoff you dont come across as that well educated. You hide it quite well  :lol:



Yes he's certainly not as stupid as he looks  

Cheers

Paul


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## geoff_tewierik (25/1/11)

Paul H said:


> Yes he's certainly not as stupid as he looks



You'll keep big boy.

Your personal trainer letting you out this Thursday night for BABBs?


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## browndog (25/1/11)

bradsbrew said:


> geez Geoff you dont come across as that well educated. You hide it quite well  :lol:



:lol: :lol:


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## haysie (25/1/11)

Voted no, but not really sure what is a professional brewer, maybe its just me being a doubting thomas. Homebrewers whom have access to professional lab equipment via their workplace doesnt seem right nor does brewing at "professional" places on their gear then claiming them as homebrew cut it with me. Wortkits? Kits? it wasnt homebrewed, it was fermented, add water etc, so no! I guess Homebrewing doesnt define between wort production or fermentation, so yet another wide field in the world of competitions.


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## manticle (25/1/11)

haysie said:


> Voted no, but not really sure what is a professional brewer, maybe its just me being a doubting thomas. Homebrewers whom have access to professional lab equipment via their workplace doesnt seem right nor does brewing at "professional" places on their gear then claiming them as homebrew cut it with me. Wortkits? Kits? it wasnt homebrewed, it was fermented, add water etc, so no! I guess Homebrewing doesnt define between wort production or fermentation, so yet another wide field in the world of competitions.



What about having access but not using it? For example, I've seen thirstyboy's laundry set-up and it's not really any more flash than yours or mine apart from the beerbelly mash tun.

Presuming his comp beers are brewed there rather than using the CUB lab/brewery, how would you feel?


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## haysie (25/1/11)

manticle said:


> What about having access but not using it? For example, I've seen thirstyboy's laundry set-up and it's not really any more flash than yours or mine apart from the beerbelly mash tun.
> 
> Presuming his comp beers are brewed there rather than using the CUB lab/brewery, how would you feel?



No problems! I can send my beers away for testing to at a premium price, adjust my recipe etc. Is it an unfair advantage? 
An employee of a brewery house or a homebrewer brewing at a brewery house entering a comp would in my eyes be subject to a little suspicion hence, the word "homebrewer". 

Why would a professional (what ever that means) enter an amateur competition. Akin to handing an American, Bear Grylls and the Chief of the Sentinelese a Big Mac and asking them to judge it.


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## manticle (25/1/11)

Suspicion I can understand.

I guess if the prizes or honour of brew competition first places were greater (holiday in Fiji for example) then I'd be even more suspicious.

To my mind (and my experience of comps is very limited - you're much more involved than me) they are the arena of passionate brewers and anyone who cheats to win is just a fool. It's not the olympics - you get a trophy and a pat on the back.

I know some professional brewers are passionate home brewers as well and some of them help make beers at work that would completely bomb out in an amateur comp. Imagine someone entering Foster lager into the lager or Aussie bitter categories?

Maybe professional brewers need to be transparent about their processes but like I said earlier - the centre half from the Australian Hockey team can still play for Camberwell state league side. The Australian team as a whole can't enter state league though.

I think the idea of judges entering beers in the category they are judging is more of an issue but I know juggling numbers of judges and participants isn't easy. Still think that should be a hard and fast rule for any BJCP style comp.


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## InCider (25/1/11)

Nothing is more rewarding than your keg drained at a Case Swap. The icing on the cake would be the grumbling that there's none left for the _hair of the dog_.
And considering there will be at least a dozen beers on portable apparatus, then the house beers also...and tried many times through the night, the favoured beer will be a tried and tested brew.

I'm off to bed. I'm in storytelling mode :lol:


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## browndog (26/1/11)

manticle said:


> Suspicion I can understand.
> 
> I guess if the prizes or honour of brew competition first places were greater (holiday in Fiji for example) then I'd be even more suspicious.
> 
> ...




Cheats are cheats, there is no understanding their reasoning for the normal person. I have mates that I grew up with that were perfectly normal to me, but when we were old enought to know better and had joined a social golf club, one used to cheat like a bastard. We all knew what was going on and used to scratch our head about it, but never came up with an answer. To think it does not happen in our home brew comps is naive.


cheers

Browndog


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## manticle (26/1/11)

browndog said:


> To think it does not happen in our home brew comps is naive.



I have no doubt that it does happen in any and every competition of any kind - just that the person who does it is a twit and the amount of care I have is fairly small. Only cheating themselves as the expression goes and for what? Undeserved self glory?


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## bradsbrew (26/1/11)

manticle said:


> I have no doubt that it does happen in any and every competition of any kind - just that the person who does it is a twit and the amount of care I have is fairly small. Only cheating themselves as the expression goes and for what? Undeserved self glory?



When you look at the prizes that have been on offer by BAABs and QABC the last couple of years its more than undeserved self glory that one could gain. Not that any of the winners have cheated and that I had a chance of winning, I would hate to see any of the prizes go to someone that doesnt deserve it.
Perhaps its just a case of the rules need to be clear and concise.

Cheers


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## manticle (26/1/11)

I know there have been some decent prizes on offer but it's not like cheating to win the lottery.

I think someone who deliberately cheats in an amateur comp of any kind is a sad sack. Not condoning cheating the lottery either but at least I can understand the motivation a little better.

As BD suggested, there are people who will cheat at anything. I don't think those who brew for a living are any more or less likely to do so. If they do, I hope they either get busted or just bomb out. If they win and nobody knows then I hope they realise one day what absolute tits they really are.


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## haysie (27/1/11)

manticle said:


> If they win and nobody knows then I hope they realise one day what absolute tits they really are.



Good call. I know of at least one beer that has taken 1st place that was very suspect, i.e brewed on commercial equipment.
I wonder why so many moons ago homebrewing comps had kit categories and now you dont see them? Is it not enough entries maybe. Whatshisname from Canberra has taken out AABC Beer of Show with a kit entry. No doubt kits make great beers but the wort isnt produced in a HB environment its only mixed and fermented. So.... bring back kit category! Never happen I know but somewhere along the line.......kitters were put against AGers when the kit category was dropped and now we have homemade crafted beer and "add water" beer thats not homemade.
I just dont get it so best i move on to another thread B)


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## hazard (27/1/11)

haysie said:


> Wortkits? Kits? it wasnt homebrewed, it was fermented, add water etc, so no!



But since AG produces better beer than kits, why not let someone enter a kit brew - its not going to win is it? Alternatively, if you think you have something to fear from kit brews then why aren't you making them yourself? 

And if AG is not as good, why do I waste 6 hours every month making an AG beer?!?


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## haysie (27/1/11)

hazard said:


> But since AG produces better beer than kits, why not let someone enter a kit brew - its not going to win is it? Alternatively, if you think you have something to fear from kit brews then why aren't you making them yourself?
> 
> And if AG is not as good, why do I waste 6 hours every month making an AG beer?!?



Read my above post... they do win!!
Fear? I brew kits as well hazard. Dont start a kit vrs ag, what I said was Kits are not Homebrewed Wort!

edit, the kits are brewed on commercial/professional equipment, so I dont rate them at all as being amateur status.


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## DU99 (27/1/11)

but people have been saying Cans of Goo,are rubbish,but yet some are saying can turn a sours ear into a silk purse


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## mintsauce (27/1/11)

Are you an actual Brewer? (I.e. brewer with free range to experiment with recipes make changes etc) as that would mean you spend your 40 hours a week getting paid to research etc to then beat us amateurs who only spend a few hours a week... I would feel that would be the difference.

However if you simply work at a brewery producing batches of beer as per instructions/procedures given to you then I'd say you can enter the amateur comps  Perhaps a little discrestion required.


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## churchy (27/1/11)

I supose it's ok to enter, but if your a judge at a competition and have a beer entered in a particular category you should be exempt from scoring in that category as not to give a inflated score <_< 


Andrew


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## mika (28/1/11)

All very intriguing.
There's probably nothing within a professional brewing setup that isnt aquirable at home by a well (very well perhaps) funded homebrewer. There are already homebrewers around with lab equipment enabling them to do cell counts on yeast (something most mircobreweries wouldn't have) and there's plenty of homebrewers with stainless conicals and erlenmeyer flasks. And what respectable homebrewer nowadays doesn't have their fermenter in a fridge with +/- 1C temp control ?
It's already been discussed about homebrewers having similar or greater official qualifications than production brewers from teaching establishments, so knowledge base can't be the issue.
So what is really all that flash about being a 'professional' brewer ? Sure a nice Steinecker 100HL system would be fun to play with, with all it's SCADA control systems (HABs, Brewbot ?), wet milling (Tony's cup of water in the grist) and internal calandria's (surely there's someone ?) but at the end of the day, it's producing sugary water.
Still it does raise an interesting scenario about previously mentioned Brendan Varis brewing a batch of Hop Hog at work for 'home consumption' and then entering the batch into a local comp. Would the beer win ? And for those that say yes, what part of the process is making that a 'winning' beer ?
After hearing the 'How to win competitions' talk at the ANHC last year and the diversity of the systems and processes used, to me all entrants are welcome.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (28/1/11)

churchy said:


> I supose it's ok to enter, but if your a judge at a competition and have a beer entered in a particular category you should be exempt from scoring in that category as not to give a inflated score <_<
> 
> 
> Andrew


Interesting point of view and one which needs to be consideration as this comp is the second biggest in Australia.
I am assuming that most of the amateur section judges at the PRBS will be local qualified BJCP guys and most will be West coast brewers members. 
West coast brewers will make up a large percentage of the entries, so how can you judge and be a contestant ? The chances are that you will judge your own beers.
I know this will happen as it has happened to me before, I did mark my own beer down for that reason. It wasnt a year I won a trophy  
Its not a comfortable place to be at as a judge and the main reason I dont want to judge this comp again.
I know Brendan O is a top judge and gives great feedback. Mate its going to be hard for you. You will be a "professional" a judge and a contestant.  
GB


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## MHB (28/1/11)

I have no objection to anyone entering a beer they have made themselves in any competition.
If you object to pro brewers entering you are I think objecting to Craft Brewers not the guys who work for the mega breweries, brewers there sit in little air-conditioned rooms and stare at computer screens all day, I suspect they never see malt or hops, just process diagrams.
Most of the craft brewers I know started as home brewers (good ones) and took the plunge. Often at personal financial risk, they are guys with boundless passion for brewing and most of them are more than happy to help fellow brewers and are the first to come to club events and do what they can to help others become better brewers.
As for the alleged advantage they have crap they cant get any ingredients that isnt available to you and me, most often we have access to better ingredients, we dont have accountants leaning over our shoulders. The same knowledge is available to us all.
I always thought the wussyst thread on AHB was the one complaining about Kit brewers taking the prizes that rightfully belonged to all grainers; reckon this one is a close second.
Treat comps as a way to learn, put up your best effort, if you dont do as well as you think you should use the feedback to make better beer.
MHB


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## Nick JD (28/1/11)

The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor bastard needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.

It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.


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## jonocarroll (28/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor bastard needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.
> 
> It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.


So, what's the difference between the guy who works in the CUB chemlab and the guy who works in the [insert state] water chemlab who happens to read up on the application of water to grain? What about someone who studied yeast for a decade but doesn't work in a brewery? What about someone who spent the last 20 years reading publicly available brewing material and perfecting their beers?

I reckon if you made it at home, on your own equipment, then it's legitimate homebrew. Don't go discriminating against people who happen to learn what they're doing, either professionally or on their own.


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## DanRayner (28/1/11)

I voted yes. My opinion on the use of the word _amateur_ in competitions: maybe it's not _Amateur __*Brewer *_Cometitions but _Amateur *Brewing*_ Comps? What I mean by that is the beers are produced in an amateur set-up, regardless of the professional/amateur status of the brewer and so in that way I'm sure we can keep the word amateur - homebrewing/homebrew has too many cheap-ass-thin-watery-foul-smelling-backyard-funk associations (at least it seems to with the general public out there) for me to want that in a competition's title.

Keep up the funky brews Brendan! I'll bet your employer will never let you brew gueuzes at work, right?



haysie said:


> Akin to handing an American, Bear Grylls and the Chief of the Sentinelese a Big Mac and asking them to judge it.



You managed to bring a remote, aggressively independent Andaman Islander tribe into the discussion? That's gotta be the most estoteric reference in this whole thread. Top work!


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## geoffd (28/1/11)

We'll have to list homebrewing in the olympics, all the pro's get to enter that comp  except the boxers

I voted yes, but seeing as 30% of the audience object, I would have to say, like Julia & Penny in the labour party anti gay marriage stance; we should accept the view of the minority. It wouldnt make sense to allow 1% more people enter & to offend 30% of the current entrants.

Minority rules, that's why we dont live in a democracy


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## Nick JD (28/1/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> So, what's the difference between the guy who works in the CUB chemlab and the guy who works in the [insert state] water chemlab who happens to read up on the application of water to grain?



One of them has qualifications and experience specific to analysis of what makes beer good and what doesn't, and the other tests water for poop.


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## jonocarroll (28/1/11)

It should be noted that professional brewers who use professional equipment aren't necessarily guaranteed to be great homebrewers. Different equipment, different skills.



Nick JD said:


> One of them has qualifications and experience specific to analysis of what makes beer good and what doesn't, and the other tests water for poop.


Actually, the 'poop tester' likely has some similar qualifications for making water good, mineral analysis, chemistry, etc. I don't see how learning what makes good beer can somehow exclude you from doing so competitively if you're all using home-style equipment. Should we be restricting the rich? They have an advantage that they can buy heaps of stainless, heaps of top-quality ingredients, heaps of books (and have heaps of time for reading), and they still do everything at amateur level. Bastards!

Don't the big wineries enter the state/national comps along with the amateurs? Don't the amateurs kick their arses every so often?


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## /// (28/1/11)

Doesn't matter to me - I always come behind Barry C anyways when I enter any beer competition!

Scotty


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## WarmBeer (28/1/11)

/// said:


> Doesn't matter to me - I always come behind Barry C anyways when I enter any beer competition!
> 
> Scotty


Probably because you're not using enough milk crates, or a wobbly enough card table.

ANHC, you had to be there.


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## manticle (28/1/11)

Pros should definitely be allowed in - if they beat me, I won't feel bad, if I beat them, I'll feel like a champ. Everyone wins.

I had one of brendano's beers in the recent funked case swap - glad he was allowed in that. Farmhouse IPA with brett = top drop.



Have commented enough now - I suppose I should actually vote.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (28/1/11)

This thread is like a dog chasing its tail. Its amusing for a while then , well.................
Basically its up to the comp organisers and what we say means jack shite.  
GB


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## /// (28/1/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Probably because you're not using enough milk crates, or a wobbly enough card table.
> 
> ANHC, you had to be there.



Yep, I have a fancy brew stand .... technology is such a bitch!


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## Millet Man (28/1/11)

Personally I haven't entered in any comps since I "turned pro" but my homebrew setup is exactly the same as it has always been and it would be hard to use the experience gained on a 36 hL system to improve my 20 lt home brew setup. Commercial brewing to me is more about consistently hitting the right mash and ferment temps and recipe and making the same product batch after batch which is easier to do in big stainless vessels. Home brewing I can be more creative and it is more down to the skill of the brewer to manage the mash and ferment temps etc.

The only reason I'd want to enter a comp would be to try out some new recipes and get some feedback from judges, but I've never done it as I can usually find enough volunteers for that job!

Cheers, Andrew.


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## browndog (28/1/11)

/// said:


> Doesn't matter to me - I always come behind Barry C anyways when I enter any beer competition!
> 
> Scotty



Well, you need to try brewing in the back yard under a tree!


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## stuchambers (28/1/11)

I know there is a professional commercial brewer however is there such thing as, a professional home brewer?

Cheers Stu


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## Online Brewing Supplies (28/1/11)

Ah "brewers who are brewing commercially that brew at home "? Where is that dog chasing its tail , ah amusing.
I am giving up on this thread. Brendan I hope you get through, you are one of the better brewers and judges and hope to beat you this year .  
GB


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## churchy (29/1/11)

Nev can you supply me the ingediants to beat you.lol

Ps I have started brewing for the Royal show.Need a few months to condition





Andrew


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## brendanos (29/1/11)

manticle said:


> I had one of brendano's beers in the recent funked case swap - glad he was allowed in that. Farmhouse IPA with brett = top drop.



Ah that was the OTHER Brendan (and wasn't it an amazing beer!) I brewed a Berliner Weisse 



Gryphon Brewing said:


> so how can you judge and be a contestant ? The chances are that you will judge your own beers.
> I know this will happen as it has happened to me before, I did mark my own beer down for that reason. It wasnt a year I won a trophy
> Its not a comfortable place to be at as a judge and the main reason I dont want to judge this comp again.
> I know Brendan O is a top judge and gives great feedback. Mate its going to be hard for you. You will be a "professional" a judge and a contestant.
> GB



Many people have raised this issue. In the comps that I have organised/run/judged I have made every effort to ensure judges do not judge categories that they have entered - though there is the odd occasion when a lack of judges/volunteers or increased entries has led to someone judging their own beer, in which case the judge has been instructed beforehand to passively agree with the other judges and score their own beer somewhere inbetween other judges scores (and their score does not count). The top commercial judges I've talked to think that if you can't judge your own beer objectively then you shouldn't be judging.

Competition coordinators/head judges make every effort to ensure that brewers don't judge their own beers, but it is hard when the most passionate/dedicated brewers that enter heaps of beers into comps are also the ones that donate their time to make the comps happen. BJCP frown heavily upon it, and the commercial guys do too (ie Perth Royal Beer Show) - but they don't really have a choice when the brewers are the only ones that have spent the time to understand beer flavour in depth and that are willing to give up their time to judge. If you don't like the idea of someone judging their own beer (higher than yours...? - I have seen a few brewers scoresheets for their own beers in the past and they are usually more critical/score themselves lower than the others on their panel!), then help out by stewarding or learning to judge. I am not going to stop entering my homebrew into competitions because I am judging/organising them, and similarly I am not going to stop judging competitions just because I have entered them. The industry is still tiny and there are not yet enough people willing to give up their time or palate for the good of beer. I will however act professionally (and as per BJCP's recommendations) with regards to confidentiality of entrants/entries etc.

Yes I have morals and no I'm not going to do any of the silly or underhanded things that some have suggested (or perhaps just mentioned for the sake of discussion?) but to be excluded altogether would make me very, very sad. I know things are getting better, judges (and drinkers) are getting more educated, and every comp I am involved with gets better every year. We just need more volunteers!


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## Thirsty Boy (30/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor bastard needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.
> 
> It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.



I choose to stay out of the original topic - i guess its obvious what my opinion would be anyway.

But this is a funny one - this post and a few others like it . You guys are so damn sure, so convinced, that the processes in big commercial "mega" breweries are completely alien to what you consider "making beer" that it is essentially a different thing entirely -- but yesterday, i watched the guy that "sits in the airconditioned room i front of a screen" who pushes the ENTER button - white like a ghost (covered in grain dust from sorting out an issue with one of the mills - run up three flights of stairs to manually adjust a steam valve because the mash temperature was coming in a degree lower than it should, before running down another flight of stairs to watch the flow through the lauter grant die off to a trickle because we had a sticky/stuck mash - then spend 20 minutes cursing, racking, underflushing and vorlauffing in order to get it going properly again. And once it was going, shone a torch on it and watched it for 15 minutes, listened to the pumps to make sure they were running properly and checked the gravity, flow rate & differential pressures were where they should be..... Then he went back upstairs, and at the exact minute he needed to in order to balance the throughputs of two independent brewing plants simultaneously brewing 3 batches of beer each at any given time... "Pushed the ENTER button to start the next batch of VB".

If the head brewer of fosters decides to enter a homebrew comp - no need for you to worry, he's spent most of the last decade more worried about the overtime budget than how to brew good beer - If the guy who runs the lab enters a HB comp, well, he knows how to work out the vikinal diketone level of a beer to the nth part per billion, but couldn't make a beer from scratch to save his life - no need to worry.

But - and i know all of them personally - if the "guys who push the ENTER button" ever decide they are interested in making homebrew, build themselves a brewery and enter the comps.... Then you should start to be really _really_ worried. These guys can shut their eyes and hear whether a brewery plant that has 13 x major vessels, 10 x heat exchangers, 4 x 6 roller mills, 8 x grain silos, 6 x sugar tanks, 6 x caustic system tanks about 50 pumps and 25 or so grain elevators, weighers and cleaners, is 30 or so years old and as quirky as hell and punches out 19 x 100,000L + brews per day - is running properly; and without looking know what to do to fix it if it isn't... These guys are Brewers - they might brew beers that you the beer geeks of the world dont like, but thats their job, and they do it bloody well. They are brewers - and next to them, i dont care who the hell you are - you are a chump. If they ever decide to make hombrew, they will be better at it than you - period.

The chances of these blokes entering is next to nill, they have no interest in what you are interested in - but the patronising attitude towards them is giving me the squirting shits. You blokes (well most of you) have no goddamned idea what goes on in a large brewery and couldn't handle it if you did - before you make your "ooh, i do it at home, so i must be an expert..." noises, try having a chat with someone who really is - and then pull your ******g heads in a little.


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## fraser_john (30/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I choose to stay out of the original topic - i guess its obvious what my opinion would be anyway.
> 
> <snip>





Brilliant TB


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## manticle (30/1/11)

brendanos said:


> Ah that was the OTHER Brendan (and wasn't it an amazing beer!) I brewed a Berliner Weisse




Realised the mistake yesterday. Brenosbrews and brendanos.


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## schooey (30/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I choose to stay out of the original topic - i guess its obvious what my opinion would be anyway.
> 
> But this is a funny one - this post and a few others like it . You guys are so damn sure, so convinced, that the processes in big commercial "mega" breweries are completely alien to what you consider "making beer" that it is essentially a different thing entirely -- but yesterday, i watched the guy that "sits in the airconditioned room i front of a screen" who pushes the ENTER button - white like a ghost (covered in grain dust from sorting out an issue with one of the mills - run up three flights of stairs to manually adjust a steam valve because the mash temperature was coming in a degree lower than it should, before running down another flight of stairs to watch the flow through the lauter grant die off to a trickle because we had a sticky/stuck mash - then spend 20 minutes cursing, racking, underflushing and vorlauffing in order to get it going properly again. And once it was going, shone a torch on it and watched it for 15 minutes, listened to the pumps to make sure they were running properly and checked the gravity, flow rate & differential pressures were where they should be..... Then he went back upstairs, and at the exact minute he needed to in order to balance the throughputs of two independent brewing plants simultaneously brewing 3 batches of beer each at any given time... "Pushed the ENTER button to start the next batch of VB".
> 
> ...




Great post, TB...

Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but I have a genuine curiosity about what you have written. Now please don't get me wrong; I don't profess to be a brewers ringhole. I'm a bloke that owns a bit of brewing kit that can turn out the odd artistic impression of beer that I like to drink and sometimes others do too..

You have described in your post about how in tune the brewers are with their systems (breweries), how well they know their process and how to deal with all the quirks that can be thrown at them all the way from the mill to the lauter and from your words it sounds it sounds like they're bloody good at it. Mucho respect!

But to me, you've only described how good they are at the process side of being a brewer. It made me curious as to how involved they are in the recipe and development side of brewing. To me, the brewers that make the best beer seem to have all the bases covered from the mill to the bottle/keg. They understand balance of flavour, fermentation profiles, yeast profiles, what effect different grains will have, how a different hop will make a vast change if it's added 5 minutes later in the boil... yatter yatter. Do the guys you have described above have any input into this side of the beers they make? Do they care? Is that why they haven't jumped into the home brewing gig?

Anyway, like I said, just a genuine curiosity. I'm not trying to take away anything from these guys (be dreaming if I thought I could  ), or trying to stir shit.


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## Thirsty Boy (30/1/11)

Exactly right - they have no input into the creative aspects of the process, and probably no real interest in having any. They make a beer (actually, just a wort) to a recipe, the make it exactly to that recipe, they get it right.

Most of them wouldn't know how to create a recipe, none of them will ever be given the chance. Would that stop them from doing well in a comp though? Hand one of them a copy of brewing classic styles and watch what happens. As it is, i'm the only person i am aware of, who will ever be one of these ENTER button pushers who has any abiding interest in beer beyond drink quantities of the mega variety - i enter the comps, and in about 6 months or a year i am going to start training to learn the ENTER button job - and i will always be the guy they get to do it when one of the good guys isn't available. I know my limitations - i can do that job, but i will never be one of the top operators. I will be happy if the management brewers dont all simultaneously cringe when they hear i am in charge of the wort plant today.

But thats it - the others wont ever do it, so you are all safe from being molested in competition by the guys who actually do do this sort of stuff every day - except for me - and enough of you have tasted my beers to know that i'm no one to be worried abut


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## haysie (31/1/11)

What a great insight TB, I nearly clicked the +1. 
I thought the OP was about professional brewers not quasi factory workers who have no interest in HOMEBREWING. Thanks for the derailment of another thread.


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## browndog (31/1/11)

Let's have a look at the rules for the AABC, which all our state comps comply (or should comply) with.

snip
*D3. Amateur brews* The competition is restricted to amateur brews, that is to beers that have not been brewed on premises licensed as a commercial brewery. Beers produced from extract kits and wort kits and Brew-On-Premises are allowed as they are not considered to be commercially brewed. Entries must be submitted under the brewers name.
snip

So there you have it, no problems at all for a professional brewer to brew at home and enter our state and national competitions. The way I see it, the pro brewers are of a far less concern than the quality of fresh wort kits these days. Joe blow who knows nothing about "brewing" and take a top quality FWK home, add some yeast and ferment it in the right conditions and hey presto, a comp winning beer. That is just not brewing in my books.

cheers

Browndog


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## Howlingdog (31/1/11)

browndog said:


> Let's have a look at the rules for the AABC, which all our state comps comply (or should comply) with.
> 
> snip
> *D3. Amateur brews* The competition is restricted to amateur brews, that is to beers that have not been brewed on premises licensed as a commercial brewery. Beers produced from extract kits and wort kits and Brew-On-Premises are allowed as they are not considered to be commercially brewed. Entries must be submitted under the brewers name.
> ...




Quote from who? "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer".


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## gone_fishing_ (31/1/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Interesting point of view and one which needs to be consideration as this comp is the second biggest in Australia.
> I am assuming that most of the amateur section judges at the PRBS will be local qualified BJCP guys and most will be West coast brewers members.
> West coast brewers will make up a large percentage of the entries, so how can you judge and be a contestant ? The chances are that you will judge your own beers.
> I know this will happen as it has happened to me before, I did mark my own beer down for that reason. It wasnt a year I won a trophy
> ...


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## jayse (1/2/11)

brendanos said:


> Snipped>.
> 
> Yes I have morals and no I'm not going to do any of the silly or underhanded things that some have suggested (or perhaps just mentioned for the sake of discussion?)



Yes I just mentioned a couple silly things simply for discussion and the broader subject, I don't question your morals at all.


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## ThatKiwiFella (1/2/11)

Like others, I believe that if you're not using equipment that commercial breweries utilise and are not licensed then I would have thought it was fine. I personally wouldn't have an issue.

As browndog says, there are greater concerns than the professional brewers (i.e. FWKs). Thank goodness for FWKs for my homebrewing though!


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## /// (13/2/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Exactly right - they have no input into the creative aspects of the process, and probably no real interest in having any. They make a beer (actually, just a wort) to a recipe, the make it exactly to that recipe, they get it right.



A bit slow in reply here, been thinking about the separation point between pro and amatuer is a few key points;

* alot of HB'ers focus on recipe and wort production. Raw materials management, Ferm management, packaging, logistics and trade items (and a countless list more items) are not part of the HB process and hence aren't taken into account by many HB'es as part of the brewing process ... these parts of the process are all as important as each other. Having a good recipe does not mean much when you have a recall for dodgey bottles and several million of those in trade to worry about.

* in a company like CUB not one man can do it all. The recipe and wort production is one small part of the picture ... as per above. If you have ever been to Abbotsford and looked at the height of the FV's (is it D cellar?) or see the pack lines running reality will kick in.

A small guy like me gets to bridge across all aspects and does everything, but we only do about 210 kegs a month and I have to; no one else is there to do it for me at the moment. At the moment ...

None the less, we all make beer and care about it. Be a cynic when it comes to big brewers and what they produce, but never confuse that with lack of passion about doing a job well and to the best of thier respective abilities. These guys are human after all.

If you consider various cerveza's, it takes a heck of a lot of effort and care to make a beer so devoid of flavour, so its crap but it is high quality crap! (and that is a quote from a head brewer from one of the largest global brewers I met some time back)

So I reckon Pro's should be able to enter and have it called a 'Brewing' competition. As I mentioned before, I'm used to being embarrassed at HB comps. I also hate how Aussies have to segment things, can wait till Superior Premium Craft Home Brew starts getting used, aint it all just beer?


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