# Bling Alert - Shield Your Eyes From The Shineyness



## Thirsty Boy (27/8/08)

So I got a friend to weld me up a RIMS unit because I was unhappy with the control I have been getting out of my HERMS.

When he gave it to me I nearly fell over - this thing is a UNIT. Its mostly made out of a chunk of 4inch stainless pipe, but with two giant bloody tri-clover fittings on the ends (the plates are around 5mm thick) with welded in threads for the in/out ports and a little drilled out bolt as a thermowell. The element is a standard bucket'o'death kettle element, but the unit is long enough to put in a higher quality element if/when I decide I want to.

Behold the sheen of stainless......
















The wort path flows diagonally through the unit with the input low and the output high, crossing the element on the way. The thermowell is just so I can install a probe to prevent boil dry. It can stand on the bench using the triclover lugs as feet, or, as I will most likely do, it will hang below my brewbench so its lower than the mashtun and therefore will always have liquid in it. The beauty of the fittings being in the end plates is that they can be re-oriented in any direction I want, alowing the unit to be turned upside down, or for the direction of flow to be reversed and still go in low and out high.

Give it a trial run this weekend

Thirsty


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## kirem (27/8/08)

Very nice work.


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## Jye (27/8/08)

Very tidy, I love that its so simple... if only I could SS weld


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## TidalPete (27/8/08)

Jye said:


> Very tidy, I love that its so simple... if only I could SS weld



I can Jye if you ever need a hand?

TP :beer:


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## bigfridge (27/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> So I got a friend to weld me up a RIMS unit because I was unhappy with the control I have been getting out of my HERMS.
> 
> When he gave it to me I nearly fell over - this thing is a UNIT. Its mostly made out of a chunk of 4inch stainless pipe, but with two giant bloody tri-clover fittings on the ends (the plates are around 5mm thick) with welded in threads for the in/out ports and a little drilled out bolt as a thermowell. The element is a standard bucket'o'death kettle element, but the unit is long enough to put in a higher quality element if/when I decide I want to.



While the container is very nice and would cost many $$$'s to buy, I would be a little concerned about the power density of the heating element ie the amount of watts being transferred to the wort through a very small surface area of the element.

This is why traditional RIMS use large heating elements and sensitive controls to regulate the power.

Unfortunately kettle elements are designed to heat water not wort.

Dave


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## Barramundi (27/8/08)

let us know how it all works thirsty , if its a goer i might knock one up like that myself , what diameter is the main pipe your using ??


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## ausdb (27/8/08)

bigfridge said:


> While the container is very nice and would cost many $$$'s to buy, I would be a little concerned about the power density of the heating element ie the amount of watts being transferred to the wort through a very small surface area of the element.
> 
> This is why traditional RIMS use large heating elements and sensitive controls to regulate the power.
> 
> Unfortunately kettle elements are designed to heat water not wort.


+1 even an immersion heater has more surface area than the kettle element, some sort of proportional power control would be useful so you could drop the input power going into the element if scorching becomes an issue.


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## Thirsty Boy (28/8/08)

As a matter of fact, if you add up the whole curly length of the kettle element, the power density is actually not all that much higher than the "low density" elements you normally find in a RIMS. You dont think I went to all the trouble of having something like this manufactured without considering that do you?

I have boiled wort using these elements before and its not an issue - or I wouldn't have used them.


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## Thirsty Boy (28/8/08)

Barramundi said:


> let us know how it all works thirsty , if its a goer i might knock one up like that myself , what diameter is the main pipe your using ??



Its 4 inch, which is a little big - but 3 inch was too small for the element. Different element and you could make it narrower. Don't be making one up till I have given it a run... this is a departure from a normal RIMS unit, it bears a lot more similarity to an external boiler unit (which it might oneday become) so it could end up being a dud as a RIMS - or the guys above might be right and the element might give me horrible scorching and I will have to find a lower density replacement.

Trials this friday to get the PID etc tuned, then a brew on Saturday or Sunday - I had a Mild scheduled, but maybe I will do something extra pale instead, to highlight any issues with scorching. A helles or a cream ale maybe.

TB


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## kook (28/8/08)

This may seem like a stupid question, but it's something I've always been unsure about and one of the main reasons I haven't continued down my originally planned RIMS path. I've had a PT100 sensor and PID unit sitting in a box for over 2 years now doing nothing :lol:

Won't the unit denature the enzymes during recirc, unless you can somehow force the element not to exceed mash out temps? :unsure:


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## Thirsty Boy (28/8/08)

nah - not gonna happen. The element is only going to turn on when the wort temp is lower than target, and it will only be able to add a certain amount of heat to the wort as it passes through. Its not going to get up that high unless your target is pretty close to M/O temps in the first place

And even if it did... mash out temps are not a switch. All the enzymes dont suddenly fall dead at 76. They are being denatured at any temp thats more or less over 60 It just happens a lot faster at higher temperatures. At 76-78, they are dropping off pretty damn fast, but still not so fast that the few seconds it takes to get through the RIMS chamber is going to make a hell of an impact.

Besides, you dont need theory - sabco sell a beautifully constructed RIMS unit, which is the sort that Sam Calgione used to start the Dogfish Head brewery. If you can become world famous because of beers you brewed on a RIMS, chances are the concept is probably not inherently bad for the brewing process


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## ausdb (28/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Its 4 inch, which is a little big - but 3 inch was too small for the element. Different element and you could make it narrower. Don't be making one up till I have given it a run... this is a departure from a normal RIMS unit, it bears a lot more similarity to an external boiler unit (which it might oneday become) so it could end up being a dud as a RIMS - or the guys above might be right and the element might give me horrible scorching and I will have to find a lower density replacement.
> 
> Trials this friday to get the PID etc tuned, then a brew on Saturday or Sunday - I had a Mild scheduled, but maybe I will do something extra pale instead, to highlight any issues with scorching. A helles or a cream ale maybe.


Sorry wasn't meaning to slag your design too much but just visually comparing the boil you get from a 2400w immersion element vs a kettle element in a "bucket o death" the kettle element does seem to have a higher watt density as the vigour of the nucleation around the element appears greater. I like your idea of an external calandria, you could "turbocharge" your kettle.




kook said:


> This may seem like a stupid question, but it's something I've always been unsure about and one of the main reasons I haven't continued down my originally planned RIMS path. I've had a PT100 sensor and PID unit sitting in a box for over 2 years now doing nothing :lol:
> 
> Won't the unit denature the enzymes during recirc, unless you can somehow force the element not to exceed mash out temps? :unsure:


But you also need to take into account wort flow rate through the unit, if the flow rate is high enough it would probably be negligible.


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## Barramundi (28/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Its 4 inch, which is a little big - but 3 inch was too small for the element. Different element and you could make it narrower. Don't be making one up till I have given it a run... this is a departure from a normal RIMS unit, it bears a lot more similarity to an external boiler unit (which it might oneday become) so it could end up being a dud as a RIMS - or the guys above might be right and the element might give me horrible scorching and I will have to find a lower density replacement.
> 
> Trials this friday to get the PID etc tuned, then a brew on Saturday or Sunday - I had a Mild scheduled, but maybe I will do something extra pale instead, to highlight any issues with scorching. A helles or a cream ale maybe.
> 
> TB




though it was 4 inch (had i read the original post properly i wouldnt have needed to ask) , havent made it yet , although ive managed to accquire most of the tri clover parts needed to make one just in case...


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## SpillsMostOfIt (28/8/08)

My Pilot Plant (small BIAB kettle) uses a kettle element and I don't believe I have issues with scorching. It's last use was for a '300 shilling scotch ale' I made a while ago where I boiled 18 litres of high gravity wort down to about 7litres over about three hours. The beer is certainly *cough* special *cough*, but I don't think it got scorched.

I *think* (can't be completely sure) that Thirsty Boy and I have discussed this over a beer or twenty. What I have done for when I brew properly is use a SSR to reduce the apparent wattage of the element. TB always has this as a fall-back if his theory is wrong.

Now all he has to do is get rid of all the other tat in his brewery so this thing doesn't look too out of place...


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## Thirsty Boy (28/8/08)

ausdb said:


> Sorry wasn't meaning to slag your design too much but just visually comparing the boil you get from a 2400w immersion element vs a kettle element in a "bucket o death" the kettle element does seem to have a higher watt density as the vigour of the nucleation around the element appears greater. I like your idea of an external calandria, you could "turbocharge" your kettle.



Oh no - slag away, thats fine. I didn't mean to sound defensive (although I guess I did) You cant improve things if you wont listen to criticism. Its just that I did take that stuff into account, came to the conclusion that it wasn't going to be an issue, but then still made the design flexible enough for an alternate element if required.... so in my mind it was "obvious" that scorching wasn't an issue and that I had taken care of it.

Just one of the many things thats true in my mind but not necessarily in the real world

If it does become an issue, I have several options around it, so I'm not too fussed - and yeah, I _was_ thinking about using it to turbo charge the kettle at least to get it to the boil faster and as back-up if I run out of gas


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## kirem (28/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> it bears a lot more similarity to an external boiler unit (which it might oneday become) so it could end up being a dud as a RIMS -



This is exactly how I use the heat exchanger in my Herms system.


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## newguy (28/8/08)

TB,

A thing of beauty. Very well thought out, well designed, well executed. If you mentioned this before, please excuse me, but are you planning to insulate the thing somehow?


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## Thirsty Boy (29/8/08)

newguy said:


> TB,
> 
> A thing of beauty. Very well thought out, well designed, well executed. If you mentioned this before, please excuse me, but are you planning to insulate the thing somehow?



I wasn't really, but its probably not a bad idea, why lose heat when you dont have to. A bit of camping mat or some foil bubble wrap should do the trick. Actually, If I can find a cheapie neoprene cooler jacket for a wine bottle. that would slip onto the case fairly well.

Thanks

Thirsty


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## Barramundi (31/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I wasn't really, but its probably not a bad idea, why lose heat when you dont have to. A bit of camping mat or some foil bubble wrap should do the trick. Actually, If I can find a cheapie neoprene cooler jacket for a wine bottle. that would slip onto the case fairly well.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Thirsty




so thirty whats the scoop , how did it go ???


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## Thirsty Boy (31/8/08)

Life caught up and I didn't get a chance to actually brew with it - but the water only trials are very nice indeed.

I mounted the unit under my brew bench by hanging it from the tri-clover lugs - its in line after the march pump.

I put 20L of water in my mash-tun because most of my mashes total volumes are around 18-20L - and tried it out on a three step and a two step mash shedule.

First I brought the water up to 56 and let it settle in - thats where I ran the PID auto tune first. Stabilised nicely and tracked along at 56 without any variation. From there I conducted two tests. A three step and a two step mash.

3 Step

Start at a steady 56
Ramp to 63 - 5m 22s - circa 1 overshoot, back to 63 within 2mins
Rest at 63 for 10m - <1 variation during rest
Ramp to 69 - 6m 17s - slightly less overshoot, settled just as fast
Rest at 69 for 10m - <1 variation during rest
Ramps to 78 - 15mins28s
Rest @ 78 for 10mins - about 1 variation

so it overshoots by around a degree after the ramps, but settles very quickly. At protein/sach temperatures it ramps at around 1 per minute. It slows down markedly on the ramps at higher temps. But thats OK as I mostly infuse to mash-out/sparge temps anyway.

I brought it back down to 68 degrees by taking out some hot water and replacing it with cold. Let it steady and then ran the auto tune again at 68

Then I dropped it to 50 and let it come back to steady @ 56 before I ran the next "mash" test

2 step (which is my normal mash schedule, with an infused M/O at the end)

Start at a steady 56
Ramps to 67 - 12mins, but it got to 66 in about 8
Rested at 67 for ten minutes - <1 variance

The re-tune at 68 seems to have killed off the overshoot, but at the expense of overdamping it a little. It really tries to sneak up on the set-point. And while I continued playing with it without taking readings, it occasionally dropped 1 lower that set-point for a minute or two. I will have a play with manually tweaking down the damping factor.

I think I am going to try to get hold of a pt100 sensor for it, I just dont think the K type thermocouple has the accuracy I want. Within 1C is OK... but its not what I want. I'm after a maximum of +/- 0.5 and better if I can get it.

Whether it scorches the crapola out of my wort is the next test, and that will have to wait a few days. ATM it has given me almost all of what I was looking for. Faster ramps times with less and more quickly corrected overshoot & steadier rest temps. A little tweaking of the PID parameters and it will be just about spot on. A pt100 and it will be close to perfect.

So at this point I'm calling it a qualified success. Now all I have to do is brew some beer on it

Thirsty


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## Barramundi (1/9/08)

great work thirsty, given the positive outcome of the tests , ill continue to search for the rest of the triclover fittings needed to knock one of these together ......
heres what ive gathered so far , just need the end caps and the pipe now


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## newguy (1/9/08)

TB,

When I first put together my homemade HERMS I also initially did the testing/tuning with only water. I also had some overshoot/instability, but it was close enough for me to try it with grain. To my surprise (pleasant surprise), it was actually more stable with less overshoot with the grain. I hope your system is similar - don't be too put off by a non-ideal response with only water.


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## Thirsty Boy (1/9/08)

Nice Barra, big tri-clovers are just plain cool.

Newguy - Yeah, I know from the HERMS that it'll be a little different with grain. It was more proof of concept than anything. I'll run a brew sometime in the next week or so and let the PID do its tuning thing at 67 with some grain in there. That'll get it even closer and hopefully I wont even have to tweak it any.

I still want that pt100 sensor though - then the PID will read in 0.1 increments and officially be accurate to about that level as well - with the Ktype its really only accurate to 1 - although it tracks pretty well with my good thermometer most of the time.

With the RIMS mounted under the bench, I get back a whole milk crate worth of bench space too - thats what the HERMS vessel used to sit on - now I have space for a control panel..........

TB


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## jjeffrey (2/9/08)

sick.


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## Barramundi (9/9/08)

so whats the mail thirsty has this been wort tested ??


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## bonj (9/9/08)

I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around.  I think I need to change my pants. That is brewer's pr0n right there.


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## Barramundi (13/9/08)

Thirsty ??


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## Thirsty Boy (13/9/08)

Sorry Barra, nothing yet. Been in a bit of a time black hole and no chance for a brew day. No empty kegs anyway.

Maybe next weekend

TB


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## Barramundi (13/9/08)

thats okay mate , we all have things to do , i will hopefully get a brew happenin on monday myself...


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