# "fresh" apple juice cider not doing much after 5 days



## wareemba (12/12/16)

i got 20L of fresh apple juice (unpasteurised, came refrigerated) and put in fermenter and got the temp up to 21 degrees then pitched the Mangrove Jacks MO2 cider yeast and put the lid on.

there are a few bubbles on the top of the juice (like the size of a beer coaster), but the gravity is 1.040, which is what is was when i started...

am i being impatient, is it going to be a slow ferment? 

my last cider was supermarket shelf stuff with EC1118 yeast, which cranked along quite hard...


----------



## Bribie G (12/12/16)

Yeast nutrient?


----------



## nosco (12/12/16)

Yep yeast nutrient. My 2nd attempt at making cider with 50lt of fresh juice after a mix up with the pick up resulted in some excellent but expensive apple cider vinegar. It did take a while to turn to vinegar though. I use nutrient in every thing now.

Edit: Its because juice doesnt have the same nutrients as beer (wort) does so its recommended put nutrient in to give the yeast a good start.


----------



## nosco (12/12/16)

Put in some nutrient and pitch some more yeast before the other stuff takes over if it hasn't already.


----------



## nosco (12/12/16)

While on the topic off ciders, do or did Aldi ever sell 100% pear juice? I was sure they did but couldnt see it there the other day. Sorry for OT OP.


----------



## wareemba (12/12/16)

OK, ill head to my LHBS tomorrow to get some powder to try to save this...

but wondering if this was due to the fresh juice, where my other ciders from pasteurised juice (CostCo mostly) have all been happy to turn sugar to more interesting stuff?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/12/16)

IMO it's unlikely to be a nutrient problem, they usually show up once you are well into ferment and the yeast runs out of nitrogen.

The more likely scenarios are that the yeast is in poor condition or there is an inhibitory compound present in the juice: if it's unpasteurised but microbially stable, that might be because there's a preservative of some form, maybe SO2. 

If you are sure there is no preservative, add some new yeast.

If it's likely that there was SO2 added, take about half of it out with peroxide. The quantity of peroxide required to do this is about one quarter of the quantity of SO2 present, eg if you had 100 mg/l SO2 in your 20 litres of juice that's 2 g total, you'd add 0.5g of peroxide which is 1.5ml of a 30% solution.

Another technique which can be used if there is an unknown inhibitory compund is to use a sacrificial yeast culture: usually best added when the juice is cold. Add the culture, mix it thoroughly then allow it to fall out and draw the juice off the cake. Warm it up and add a new culture. This works because yeast has an enormous surface area and can thus be used to "fine" out the inhibitory compound. You can use any old yeast for this, it's a good use for yeasts that are past their use by dates.

The nutrient won't hurt BTW, most of them are dried yeast hulls which can have a similar effect as above.


----------



## Black n Tan (12/12/16)

Fresh juice often contains sorbate as a preservative and this inhibits the growth of yeast. Did you ask if it had any preservatives? If it did it may take a little longer, but it should get going. If not pitch another pack of yeast.

EDIT: meant sorbate, not polysorbate


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/12/16)

Polysorbates are emulsifiers. I assume you meant sorbate (usually added as the sodium or potassium salt)


----------



## Dan Pratt (13/12/16)

I pitched a rehydrated packet of US05 into 12.5lts of 1040 cloudy apple cider on Sunday night around 8pm. By 7am the next day it was cranking away. No nutrient, no 02 added, if it stops at 1005 I will be happy as it wont be too dry and wont require to be back sweetened.


----------



## wareemba (13/12/16)

thanks for all the replies guys!

just after i posted my OP (9pm last night) - i gave it a little twist and shake, now it looks like this 18hrs later...

this looks better, right?







smells nicer too...


----------



## wareemba (13/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The more likely scenarios are that the yeast is in poor condition or there is an inhibitory compound present in the juice: if it's unpasteurised but microbially stable, that might be because there's a preservative of some form, maybe SO2.


and yes, i just confirmed it has preservative 202 in it...

but it is literally "bubbling away" now :beerbang:

my lesson learned i guess?

thanks for the details everyone, i learned a lot from this thread 

EDIT: this is the label:






should it really be marketed as "fresh juice" if it is reconstituted imported juice?


----------



## damoninja (13/12/16)

Coles / Woolies home brand stuff isn't stabilised



wareemba said:


> i just confirmed it has preservative 202 in it...


Potassium sorbate 

h34r: h34r:


----------



## tugger (13/12/16)

Lc, do you know how or if velcorin or dimethyldicarbonate in fresh juice would cause problems with fermentation after the reaction period?
I have heard a popular juice company is using it now for mainstream chilled juice.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/12/16)

Velcorin / DMDC won't cause issues, it breaks down very quickly in anything wet.

BTW it was recently reclassified as a processing aid so it doesn't have to be declared on the label.


----------



## tateg (13/12/16)

Hi guys, sorry to hijack the thread, but while we are discussing fresh Apple juice, what would be the best locally available juice to use ? (Local to Melbourne that is).
Cheers


----------



## Dan Pratt (13/12/16)

When enquired with east coast beverage about their apple juice they explained to be they use 202 as well. This hasn't affected my ferment, it's stopped bubbling so a gravity reading later tonight to see what's left. It may of been a little fast, around 48hrs since pitching....


----------



## wareemba (13/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> I pitched a rehydrated packet of US05 into 12.5lts of 1040 cloudy apple cider on Sunday night around 8pm. By 7am the next day it was cranking away. No nutrient, no 02 added, if it stops at 1005 I will be happy as it wont be too dry and wont require to be back sweetened.


hey mate, i didn't rehydrate - maybe that was my issue?

did you just add to a small jug of warm water?


----------



## Dan Pratt (17/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> When enquired with east coast beverage about their apple juice they explained to be they use 202 as well. This hasn't affected my ferment, it's stopped bubbling so a gravity reading later tonight to see what's left. It may of been a little fast, around 48hrs since pitching....


i retract my posts for this thread.

The morning after pitching the air lock was solid activity, i cam home 2 days later and thought it was finished as the airlock was inactive. I left it for another 24hrs and then checked the gravity.....wtf it had only dropped 2 points to 1038. I gave it a swirl and 2 days later it was still inactive, i pitched another packet of 05 and today its still not fermenting.

FM! :unsure:

The sorbate from the 202 preservative must be stopping this fermenting. Im going to crank up the temp to 21c and if it doesnt get started by tomorrow its going on the lawn.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (17/12/16)

Not sure why you are using an ale yeast for a cider. The sugars present in fruit juice are all simple so there's no need for the extra di- and tri-saccharide transporters in the beer strains. In my limited experience of these things, wine yeasts are the go (but then I'm biased as I have far more experience with wine yeasts).

DV10 is a great workhorse yeast if you want clean neutrality, QA23 is my go-to yeast for aromatic whites (other than sauvignon bland) so it's going into my next cider; should be interesting. These are both low to moderate nitrogen requirement strains which alleviates the need for supplementation. I personally don't like EC1118 as it tends to produce a stewed pineapple flavour which I dislike.


----------



## manticle (17/12/16)

Wine, champagne or funnily enough - cider yeast.


----------



## Tahoose (17/12/16)

The new saf cider tastes good on first use. 

Going to give it another try as thirsy people in my house meant I barely got to try it.


----------



## wareemba (17/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> i retract my posts for this thread.
> 
> The morning after pitching the air lock was solid activity, i cam home 2 days later and thought it was finished as the airlock was inactive. I left it for another 24hrs and then checked the gravity.....wtf it had only dropped 2 points to 1038. I gave it a swirl and 2 days later it was still inactive, i pitched another packet of 05 and today its still not fermenting.
> 
> ...


my batch of East Coast Beverages is sitting at 1.038 after a liitle bit of fermenting... 

i gave it another big shake to stir it up, but its been two weeks now...

doh, I should not have got 20L of it  should have tried a demijohn fists...


----------



## wareemba (17/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Not sure why you are using an ale yeast for a cider.


what do you think of M02? or 71B?


----------



## Dan Pratt (17/12/16)

wareemba said:


> my batch of East Coast Beverages is sitting at 1.038 after a liitle bit of fermenting...
> 
> i gave it another big shake to stir it up, but its been two weeks now...
> 
> doh, I should not have got 20L of it  should have tried a demijohn fists...


Which yeast did you use?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (17/12/16)

wareemba said:


> what do you think of M02? or 71B?


M02 I don't know, unless you mean M2, in which case avoid it unless you like intractable sulphides.

71B is not a yeast I've used, to my knowledge it's primarily used to soften high (malic) acid whites without putting them through malo. This could be an interesting yeast if you find the cider made with other yeasts is too tart.

Edit: just worked out that M02 is a mangrove Jack's Yeast, I've never used it.


----------



## boonchu (17/12/16)

Unfortunately most "cider" yeasts are a variation of a champagne yeast. S04 works well as does wlp775. No yeast will work well with juice that has preservatives. Best to find a local orchard where you can get fresh juice for under$1.50 a litre


----------



## wareemba (17/12/16)

Pratty1 said:


> Which yeast did you use?


 
Mangrove Jacks M02 cider yeast


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (17/12/16)

boonchu said:


> No yeast will work well with juice that has preservatives.


That's not really the case. Sorbates are always a problem as their metabolism can lead to off flavours* but most wine yeasts will shrug off SO2 at levels up to 100ppm** and in any case it can easily be reduced below this level by adding peroxide as previously detailed.

*Notably geranium taint if there are LABs present but it can also cause a VDK like taint.

** An ex colleague of mine ferments some of his sauvignon in barrel at 100 PPM free SO2. He developed this after a few vintages in Bordeaux, he reckons it adds to the texture. Since he sells the resultant wine for about $50 a bottle, he's probably right.


----------



## boonchu (17/12/16)

Fair enough, but unless you are looking to do an English or french cider I would stay away from wine yeasts. Imo for a bog standard cider it is best to keep clear of preservatives.


----------



## manticle (17/12/16)

French cider tends towards spontaneous fermentation/wild yeast, non?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (17/12/16)

boonchu said:


> unless you are looking to do an English or french cider I would stay away from wine yeasts.


Why?


----------



## boonchu (17/12/16)

manticle said:


> French cider tends towards spontaneous fermentation/wild yeast, non?


Indeed, but the wild yeast is usually very close to a normal wine yeast due to whats around the area.


----------



## boonchu (17/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Why?


They usually end very dry with have a high ester profile making it more winelike than cider. Especially if you are looking for a sweet cider


----------



## wareemba (17/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> in any case it can easily be reduced below this level by adding peroxide as previously detailed.


hey Lyrebird_Cycles, i cant find much elsewhere (anything) about using _peroxide_, but a fair bit on using hydrogen peroxide... 

are you talking about H2O2?

I'm guessing it is far too late to save this batch?

anyways, I'm not going to use 202 tainted "fresh" juice again...


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (17/12/16)

Peroxide won't fix high sorbate.


----------



## wareemba (17/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Peroxide won't fix high sorbate.


well now I am thoroughly confused...


----------



## manticle (17/12/16)

boonchu said:


> Indeed, but the wild yeast is usually very close to a normal wine yeast due to whats around the area.


For my palate, most English and French ciders stand head and shoulders above things like pipsqueak or mercury so my preference would be in that area.

As for sweetness - french can be anything from sweet to semi to dry.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (17/12/16)

wareemba said:


> well now I am thoroughly confused...


Actually I was wrong, it turns out that peroxide will oxidise sorbate. Unlike the SO2 / peroxide reaction however I don't have any personal experience with it.

We can assume a 1:1 stoichiometry, so to take out 250 ppm of sorbate you'd need to add about 75 ppm of peroxide, that's about 250ppm of a 30% solution eg 5ml in your 20 litres of juice.


----------



## Blind Dog (18/12/16)

manticle said:


> For my palate, most English and French ciders stand head and shoulders above things like pipsqueak or mercury so my preference would be in that area.
> As for sweetness - french can be anything from sweet to semi to dry.


have to agree, although I'd be thinking its a fair bit more than just head and shoulders; they're streets ahead. (I'm ignoring the industrial scale bastardisations)

The subtle complexities of a well made English or French cider is largely down to the blending of varieties and long maturation. For example, Thatchers grow over 400 varieties of apples and mature for up to 2 years in massive oak vats. The apples they grow are really only any good for cider.

Daylesford cider use cider apples for their cider (not sure it's 100%) and, to me anyway, the difference in flavour to a standard Aussie cider made from dessert apples is staggering


----------



## manticle (18/12/16)

@ boonchu - what yeasts ( besides 04 and wlp775 which is marketed as english cider yeast anyway) do you think make good cider and what's a commrcial example of that kind of cider?

Also where is the info on strains of cider yeast and their relationship to wine yeast? I can't find anything and I'm interested.

Cheers


----------



## nosco (18/12/16)

Not really a cider drinker but I would like to try a nice example of a good English or French cider.


----------



## manticle (18/12/16)

Thatchers or Henneys are good UK and reasonably available.

Cidre d'anneville is a favourite of mine but french (breton/normanndy) is a step into funktown so be ready.


----------



## MHB (18/12/16)

I to think it takes great Cider Apples to make great Cider. The difference is chalk and cheese.
Problem is that anyone in Australia that has proper cider apples can sell them for whatever they like to ask for, demand exceeds supply and even a small amount of cider juice will improve eating apple juice dramatically.
Mark


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (18/12/16)

manticle said:


> where is the info on strains of cider yeast and their relationship to wine yeast? I can't find anything and I'm interested.


Much of the academic work on cider yeasts has been on indentifying the muliplicity of yeasts present in feral ferments. In England at least, cider strains were derived from these cider ferments (mostly back in the 60's).

The cider yeasts selected have similar gene complements to wine yeasts but this is an example of selection for similar traits (complete fermentation, low temperature fermentation) rather than derivation.

Industrial cidermakers often use actual wine yeasts to take advantage of their high alcohol tolerance (see for instance "_Yeasts in Food and Beverages_" Querol and Fleet, Springer 2006 p 37*); this is because they do a lot of ferments using concentrate to achieve higher gravity then cut back post ferment. One perceived problem with this appoach is that the resulting cider lacks esters.


* The Fleet in the author list is Prof Graham Fleet, who wrote the standard textbook on wine microbiology. He was also my thesis supervisor.


----------



## manticle (18/12/16)

Thankyou


----------



## manticle (18/12/16)

Looks like a great text. Unfortunately I don't have $500 to spare.

Good brewing texts always cost a bomb.


----------



## boonchu (18/12/16)

manticle said:


> @ boonchu - what yeasts ( besides 04 and wlp775 which is marketed as english cider yeast anyway) do you think make good cider and what's a commrcial example of that kind of cider?
> 
> Also where is the info on strains of cider yeast and their relationship to wine yeast? I can't find anything and I'm interested.
> 
> Cheers


Most of my info comes from talking to the reps for mj and safale. And it seems they use a version of ec1118 or sn9
As for what makes a ggod cider yeast, imo it is more about what you want from it. Do you want bone dry or sweet? Full bodied and ester profiles. If you can find a good rose yeast or chardy


----------



## boonchu (18/12/16)

Some good yeast charts


----------



## boonchu (18/12/16)

Some good yeast charts


----------



## Airgead (19/12/16)

Couple of things you need to remember about yeasts and ciders... 

1- the sugar profile is diferent in apple juice compared to beer. Apple juice is all simple sugars. This means that any beer yeasts attenuation figure is essentially meaningless when applied to a cider. Rule of thumb - it will end up dry. Wine yeasts get a closer result to their published figures because the sugar profile is similar. 

2- the ester profile will end up diferent because many of the precursor chemicals that the yeast uses to make the esters just aren't present in juice. Or are present at lower amounts. Or are present in higher amounts. The ester profile you get in a beer is an indication of what it will do in a cider but the actual result will be diferent. Similar, but diferent. Again wine years are closer to their performance in grape wine but there will be differences. 

Generally for using beer yeaasts in cider, it will end up a lot dryer than you expect and the ester profile will be similar but very muted compared to what you expect. 

Wine yeasts are usually pretty close to what you would expect. 

For the record, 71b is my cider yeast of choice.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (19/12/16)

Airgead said:


> For the record, 71b is my cider yeast of choice.


Is this easily available in small quantities?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (19/12/16)

manticle said:


> Looks like a great text. Unfortunately I don't have $500 to spare.
> 
> Good brewing texts always cost a bomb.


I was able to find a PDF easily enough, if that helps


----------



## damoninja (19/12/16)

I love S04 for ciders too, have used a few cider and wine labelled yeasts but do like what I get out of the S04.


----------



## wareemba (19/12/16)

Airgead said:


> For the record, 71b is my cider yeast of choice.


yay!

it's the guy who got me into making cider!

do you have an opinion on my OP describing my *non-active* juice + yeast bucket?

is it because the juice I used has preservative 202 in it that it is not working?


----------



## wareemba (19/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Is this easily available in small quantities?


is 10g small enough? http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/lalvin-71b-for-nouveau-style-wines


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (19/12/16)

wareemba said:


> is 10g small enough? http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/lalvin-71b-for-nouveau-style-wines


Yep, thanks.


----------



## Airgead (19/12/16)

I was going to point you at ibrew as well. It's the only place I know where you can get 71b in under a half kilo size. 

@wareemba probably. 202 is potassium sorbate which inhibits yeast reproduction. I use the stuff (as sorbistat) when I back sweeten and don't want re fermentation. So yes, you have added some yeast and it has been unable to reproduce due to the sorbate. The yeast will ferment but without being able to build up its numbers it will ferment very slowly and probably not finish properly. 

Not sure what you can do about it. No idea whether you can neutralise it with something.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (19/12/16)

Airgead said:


> Not sure what you can do about it. No idea whether you can neutralise it with something.


As stated above you can oxidise it with peroxide.


----------



## Airgead (19/12/16)

Ahhh yes indeed. Missed that bit. The peroxide would nuke any remaining yeast as well so a new pitch would be needed. 

I suspect at this point the easiest option would be to get some new juice and make sure that 202 is not on the ingredient list...


----------



## Blind Dog (19/12/16)

nosco said:


> Not really a cider drinker but I would like to try a nice example of a good English or French cider.


Thatchers Gold is widely available as its distributed by Coopers, but is probably their least interesting cider. The good stuff doesn't tend to make it out of Somerset, and the really good stuff doesn't leave the village it's made in. It's still much more complex than most other ciders available. I've not seen Henneys over here, but if you do find it, it's worth trying. The English brands widely available here are industrial ciders (tend to use concentrate, sweetners, flavour enhancers etc. or worse) and generally are to cider what VB is to beer.

If ever you're up Daylesford way, the cidery is well worth a visit. They make it in the traditional English way (just juice and yeast and time) from heritage cider apples grown on their farm and a fair few are still ciders which are pretty rare, but worth discovering. A tasting paddle of all 7 ciders was $10 last time I visited.


----------



## nosco (20/12/16)

Nice! Only an hour from me. Ill check it out asap.


----------



## Tahoose (20/12/16)

Black hearts and sparrows sell a really nice French cider , I think it's called Pere Jules. Not cheap at $25/750ml but it is Christmas.


----------



## wareemba (20/12/16)

Any one tried Cedar Creek at Thirlmere? 

http://cedarcreekorchards.com.au/juice

They offered 'fresh off the press' for $1.50 in byo container... No additives! 

It's a long trip, but I can't find anything closer to Hornsby?


----------



## nosco (20/12/16)

There was a thread on here about 2 years ago on different places to get juice. Might have been mostly vic though.


----------



## tateg (20/12/16)

nosco said:


> There was a thread on here about 2 years ago on different places to get juice. Might have been mostly vic though.


I have been looking for the last week for a thread liek this and cant find one. 
Any hint s?


----------



## manticle (20/12/16)

From memory it was either coldstream or harcourt.


----------



## manticle (20/12/16)

Here's one I was involved in: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70956-anyone-interested-in-bulk-apple-juice-from-nudie-juice/

Also kellybrook used to have a cider festival each year with bulk juice available. Don't know if they still do.


----------



## nosco (20/12/16)

I have an Aldi cider fermenting atm, going a bit slow me thinks. If it ferments out too dry for my liking can i add potsium sorbate to the keg to stop it fermenting and then back sweeten with more juice?

Edit: actually i think someone already mentioned that in this thread.


----------



## Dan Pratt (20/12/16)

My east Coast Cloudy Apple is @ day 8 - dropped 5 gravity points to 1.035

will check it again tonight.....


----------



## Blind Dog (20/12/16)

nosco said:


> I have an Aldi cider fermenting atm, going a bit slow me thinks. If it ferments out too dry for my liking can i add potsium sorbate to the keg to stop it fermenting and then back sweeten with more juice?
> 
> Edit: actually i think someone already mentioned that in this thread.


You can, but if its kegged and stored cold, its easier to just back sweeten in the keg as the yeast will be pretty lazy at cold (sub 8C) temps. It will eventually ferment out, but it'll take a while, and you can just add more when needed. If you add it at the original SG, the alc % should stay the same. Apple juice or pear and apple work well and add complexity, plus you don't have to worry about preservatives any more. Cordial can also be used, but make sure you like it before you add it. Sugar syrup also works.

You can also back sweeten in the glass and that might be the way to go until you find the right amount & combo of juice / cordial / sugar syrup that produces a cider you like.

The other option is 'stop' fermentation by crash chilling then filtering and kegging once the desired sweetness level is reached. Again, the remaining yeast will continue to ferment, but slowly


----------



## boonchu (20/12/16)

wareemba said:


> Any one tried Cedar Creek at Thirlmere?
> 
> http://cedarcreekorchards.com.au/juice
> 
> ...


I get about 200L from them every month and it is good juice. I have also sent most of the guys from thay area there as well.


----------



## wareemba (20/12/16)

boonchu said:


> I get about 200L from them every month and it is good juice. I have also sent most of the guys from thay area there as well.


oh that is great news, so it will be worth the trip...

I was just going to take two 23L tubs, that way i can do a main batch and two side batches 

so i am assuming i sanitise the tubs before i head down there? any other tips to picking up bulk juice? how do you carry 200L?


----------



## boonchu (20/12/16)

I use 25L cubes. And yes clean and sanitise and pitch the same day. It is live juice so treat with care


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken (9/1/17)

Hi all,

My ferm fridge was going to be empty during the Great Aussie Road Trip over the Silly Season so I had my first crack at cider. Four 2L Aldi apple juice bottles with a sachet of Mangrove Jacks Cider Yeast split between them.
By the coming weekend they'll have been in there at 16C for four weeks.

Will cider oxidise if there's some splashing during packaging or is it less of an issue than it is with beer?


----------

