# BWS's Idea Of Beer Categories



## tricache (20/2/13)

I had a laugh at this when I got there usual newsletter...had to share this.

http://www.beerwinespirits.com.au/beer-categories.html

Has anyone found "Clear Beer" in there judging guidelines?


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## sponge (20/2/13)

I am assuming you cannot have a clear beer in a green/brown bottle then..?

Don't often hear of beers classed by their packaging as opposed to their contents.

Would make for a good comp, having beer in the clearest glass possible.


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## sp0rk (20/2/13)

Also, apparently ales only go with red meat dishes and lagers are hop driven...


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## lukiferj (20/2/13)

Clear beers. Awesome.


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## hsb (20/2/13)

My local Dan's rearranged the wine, we're talking ten thousand bottles here, in alphabetical order by the label.
Ahead of their time as it all got moved back a month later.

But then they have the Chinese beers next to the Belgians and the Beers containing Banana.

PMSL @ *Flavoured Beer* - Beers with added taste of lemon, lime or ginger - the three classic 'flavours' of flavoured beer, we have ze lemon, ze lime und ze ginger.


Nice use of the comma there too
*Clear Beer* - Clear, glass packaged beers

Clear beers, now available in glass!


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## Bribie G (20/2/13)

I think the Dans layout is pretty good: an aisle of megaswill, half an aisle of local craft beer and half an aisle of imports - although that often includes some BULs of course. Then they have a cold section which has a good range of individual bottles, and often a deal like buy six assorted and get a couple of dollars off, usually buy my Zywiec that way.


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## stux (20/2/13)

Anyone else regard 4% as Full Strength?


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## Bribie G (20/2/13)

The breweries would like us to think that, most new brands seem to be around 4.4%. However VB learned their lesson.


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## slash22000 (20/2/13)

It's a ******* shame, the state of beer in Australia. Or everywhere, I guess?

Go into a bottle shop, they'll have 80% of the floor covered in racks of wine bottles. Hundreds of them. Every variety under the sun. Now don't get me wrong, I drink wine, I enjoy wine, I'd like to think I know _something _about wine, I can tell most varieties apart, but take the average Australian and they'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between any grape juice aside from being "red", "pink" (lol) or "white". Why do they need 500 bottles of Shiraz?

Yet with beer it's absolutely obvious the difference between various styles. Much like wine, some people might not be able to tell two similar beers apart, but the difference between styles of beer is blindingly obvious. It's not a subtle difference. Where wine has "red/pink/white", there are dozens and dozens of completely unique beer styles.

So why do we have thousands of bottles of wine and then a few hundred bottles of virtually identical Australian piss-lager? The mind boggles. Seriously.


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## SergeMarx (20/2/13)

slash22000 said:


> It's a ******* shame, the state of beer in Australia. Or everywhere, I guess?
> 
> Go into a bottle shop, they'll have 80% of the floor covered in racks of wine bottles. Hundreds of them. Every variety under the sun. Now don't get me wrong, I drink wine, I enjoy wine, I'd like to think I know _something _about wine, I can tell most varieties apart, but take the average Australian and they'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between any grape juice aside from being "red", "pink" (lol) or "white". Why do they need 500 bottles of Shiraz?
> 
> ...


Damn straight


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## edschache (20/2/13)

@slash22000 - but there is only one flavour "beer" right? it's that thing bogans that can't afford wine drink 

My local first choice has two categories - flavourless mainstream lager or lightstruck/tainted/mishandled beer. Even 28 Pale Ale from Burleigh tastes like it's been on a month long tour of Uluru in summer despite being 100k from the brewery.

Big thumbs up to the guys/gals at Archive in West End for their cold room of indecision and temptation.

What annoys me more than bottleshops is restaurants. You'll go to some with a 5 page wine list with bottles up to $200 a pop and then you ask for a beer and they say "hahn premium light, XXXX gold or crown lager?" to which you reply "water please". Seriously wtf?


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## slash22000 (20/2/13)

edschache said:


> What annoys me more than bottleshops is restaurants. You'll go to some with a 5 page wine list with bottles up to $200 a pop and then you ask for a beer and they say "hahn premium light, XXXX gold or crown lager?" to which you reply "water please". Seriously wtf?


Funny you mention that, because I have a good example. There's a restaurant here in Darwin that has a specially designed humidity controlled walk-in wine cooler with about a hundred bottles of wine, some cost >$1000 each locked in glass cases. You can walk in and choose your own bottle, it has little labels on every one of them describing the flavour, where it's grown, the winery, etc. Then they'll make a big fuss about coming out and decanting it etc for you.

On their beer taps is XXXX Gold, Tooheys and a few miscellaneous light/mid beers. It's a ******* disgrace. Is it so hard to keep a six pack or two of worthwhile beer in the fridge? Maybe see how fast they fly off the shelves?


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## tricache (20/2/13)

If you like over priced & "better" wine it makes you a connoisseur but if you like better craft beer you are a snob/weirdo....makes sense to me *NOT :angry:*


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## joshuahardie (20/2/13)

tricache said:


> If you like over priced & "better" wine it makes you a connoisseur but if you like better craft beer you are a snob/weirdo....makes sense to me *NOT :angry:*


Could not agree more. Why do people look at me funny at a BBQ when I insist I drink my beer out of a glass, instead of the bottle.
If I was slugging wine out of a bottle id be called a drunk....


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## Dave70 (20/2/13)

*Low Carb* - Beer that is low in carbohydrates


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## Spiesy (20/2/13)

edschache said:


> What annoys me more than bottleshops is restaurants. You'll go to some with a 5 page wine list with bottles up to $200 a pop and then you ask for a beer and they say "hahn premium light, XXXX gold or crown lager?" to which you reply "water please". Seriously wtf?


Yep.

I get why bottle shops have a majority choice in wine, compared to beer - it's what the market demands... but the amount of good quality restaurants that have virtually NO choice in the beer department, just 3-4 "international lagers" (Stella, Heine, Peroni, Crown) drives me insane!

Seriously.... if you drank Stella, Heineken, Peroni or Becks, etc - you wouldn't overly mind if you're preferred beer wasn't there, but another "international lager" was in it's place. But if you don't fancy a bland, tasteless, lager, there's nothing for you.


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## bum (20/2/13)

Spiesy said:


> But if you don't fancy a bland, tasteless, lager, there's nothing for you.


And you're also probably in the wrong country. Let's face it - the average person thinks those beers _are_ the fancy option and those restaurants _are_ trying - shitty though those options may be.

Regardless, if I ran a kitchen I wouldn't want to be serving palate-wrecking, hoppy beers and the like anyway.


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## Bribie G (20/2/13)

Wine is a total wank - time and time again someone does a blind testing on general members of the public and they choose the cask over the $70 of boutique Hunter Valley stuff.
Rellies on the N Shore in Sydney love their wine as long as it's over $20 a bottle. Last time I bought three of Vino Gusto Coles plonk for $13 - they didn't know the brand as they never go to that end of the bottlo - and they loved it "Ah Grange North Slope 98 with a fair hint of cranberry in the finish and .....". I actually think I whipped the veil from their eyes because a couple of days later they were raving over a $8 end of bin thing they'd picked up.

I've no doubt that the genuine conoisseurs who know what they are talking about can distinguish between "value ranges" of wine just as a very small proportion of the population can tell you the difference between an APA and a Dusseldorf Alt. And we are talking really a minute proportion.


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## slash22000 (20/2/13)

bum said:


> Regardless, if I ran a kitchen I wouldn't want to be serving palate-wrecking, hoppy beers and the like anyway.


I don't think anybody is suggesting restaurants go out of their way to serve 100+ IBU IPA's. Would it kill them to have a few Little Creature ales around, at least? Something other than alcoholic fizzy piss water?


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## bum (20/2/13)

slash22000 said:


> Would it kill them to have a few Little Creature ales around, at least? Something other than alcoholic fizzy piss water?


Make your mind up!

Flavourful beers are _very_ hard to pair with a broad range of foods.

Plus no one would buy it because they want a fancy Crownie when they're out or they want the beer they usually drink. How many people do you think want a beer even as adventurous as White Rabbit dark ale?


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## Liam_snorkel (20/2/13)

speaking of which - WR dark ale was the only craft beer on the menu at a wine-wanker place I went to for dinner last weekend.


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## sp0rk (20/2/13)

WR Dark ale is on the beer list at 2 restaurants here...

I'd like to think it's because of my constant whinging at restaurants when all they have is 6 lagers that taste basically the same... (but it's most likely not)
I've brought bottles of craft beer to byo restaurants before,only to be told that I'm only allowed to bring wine, because they already have 6 lagers on offer...
I solved this by bringing corked 750ml bottles, like Chimay Blue, etc...


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## manticle (20/2/13)

It's actually a market niche/opportunity and some high end restaurants, at least in Melbourne, are starting to look at it from that perspective.
Takes time and many other things to change perspectives and stereotypes and to be honest, I'd like beer in all it's glorious diverse historical wonderfullness NOT to become pontificated over in the same way wine often is.


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## Phoney (20/2/13)

bum said:


> Regardless, if I ran a kitchen I wouldn't want to be serving palate-wrecking, hoppy beers and the like anyway.


As usual you are speaking out of your bum, I ate at some pretty fine dining establishments in NYC last year, and they all had an excellent choice of beers on offer. 

Eleven madison park is ranked the 10th best restuarant in the world, and check out their beer menu: http://elevenmadisonpark.com/pdfs/beer_list.pdf - I had the degustation with matching wines and yet one course came out with a belgian saison and another with a french cider. Was pretty happy about that, it matched the courses perfectly, there's no excuse for Aussie chefs to not offer the same.


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## bum (20/2/13)

One course at one restaurant is your proof? And it is somehow me who is disconnected with reality?

There's a really good reason for Australian chefs not to do it and that is that the Australian market is clueless/does not want.


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## Phoney (20/2/13)

bum said:


> One course at one restaurant is your proof? And it is somehow me who is disconnected with reality?


That was just one example. Do you want more?


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## bum (20/2/13)

Yes, please.


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## pk.sax (20/2/13)

I took in a 3 monts last time, indonesian food, yummy, hot and the 'bottled in french they can't understand' went perfectly with the food.

Now, only if some brewery did wine style screw top bottles.... Wait.. growlers


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## AndrewQLD (20/2/13)

bum said:


> Make your mind up!
> 
> Flavourful beers are _very_ hard to pair with a broad range of foods.
> 
> Plus no one would buy it because they want a fancy Crownie when they're out or they want the beer they usually drink. How many people do you think want a beer even as adventurous as White Rabbit dark ale?


Pretty sure the organisers of the ANHC dinner would disagree with that, they did a pretty good job on the night.


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## bum (20/2/13)

practicalfool said:


> Now, only if some brewery did wine style screw top bottles.... Wait.. growlers


Nah, it's not beer. It's cream sherry!


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## Nick JD (20/2/13)

Pairing beer with food is so dumb.

Making beer that has the same nutritional value as food is not.

Those Monks and their binge drinking during lent ... that may be into some 2000 year old hocus pocus, but they sure know how to procure a decent belly.


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## bum (20/2/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> Pretty sure the organisers of the ANHC dinner would disagree with that


Actually, I would be completely surprised if they read it, thought about it then actually disagreed outright with it. Pairing with one dish - I'm sure they would say it took a lot of work and testing to get it right. Getting a large selection of beers to match a large part of the menu? Nigh on impossible. Much easier with wine.

[EDIT: typo]


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## AndrewQLD (20/2/13)

Some of the beers at ANHC weren't delivered to the restaurant or sampled until a week before the venue date, a general description of the beer was given by the brewers and the menu was developed from there. So while a lot of work went into the menu development it wasn't just because of the beers involved.

Most restaurants don't have a revolving door of meals, they will keep the same basic menu for a period of time with seasonal changes.
And as far as matching the beer to the menu, why would you need more than one or two choices per course? They are recommendations of a beer that would match well to the meal. Just as when the waiter recommends a wine to accompany the meal.


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## bum (20/2/13)

This is fundamental to my point. The beers will not travel _across_ courses. It is bad business to have a secondary product damage the primary one. Unless you're suggesting Australia is ready to drink beer from tasting glasses each course...?


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## AndrewQLD (20/2/13)

Not being a wine buff please correct me if i'm wrong.
Aren't different wines served for each course? White for chicken, fish, red for meat, sweet with desserts ect?
Easier to open a 375ml beer for each course than a 750 ml wine for each course.
Or have i misunderstood your post above?


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## bum (20/2/13)

No you haven't but the point of difference, I guess, is that a bottle of wine is usually shared amongst the table. Necking a stubbie of craft beer (and the higher than mega-beer alc that often entails) per course per person may often be less sustainable. Also you're more likely to get a wine that will traverse from pork belly entree to steak main, for example. Schlenkerla Urbock and pork belly? Yummo! Get it away from my rare steak, please.

Although you can keep wine away from the steak too, thanks. Much appreciated.


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## Phoney (20/2/13)

bum said:


> Yes, please.


page 127: http://www.tkrg.org/upload/ps_wine.pdf
page 16: http://www.binwise.com/print/aifiori_bottle_pdf.aspx?ListId=146

etc.


The worst part of pairing beer with _every _dish is that they leave you feeling bloated by the end of your dinner, whereas wine doesnt usually have that effect.


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## bum (20/2/13)

phoneyhuh said:


> page 127: http://www.tkrg.org/upload/ps_wine.pdf
> page 16: http://www.binwise.com/print/aifiori_bottle_pdf.aspx?ListId=146
> 
> etc.


Perhaps I've misunderstood your point. In the first link I see 126 pages of wine vs. 1 page of beer and in the second link I see49 pages of wine vs half a page of beer. both of these are approximately commensurate with restaurants here in terms of quantity. Quality? The second one is clearly only going for image. The first is a very respectable list but it is fairly unrealistic to expect something like that in a statistically relevant number of restaurants. Imagine trying to charge $155 for a bottle of beer _anywhere_ here.

Still, I'm fairly envious if you ate at the first place (and even more so if you can afford it).

[EDIT: typos]


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## Phoney (20/2/13)

Wine lists in these sorts of restaurants will always outnumber beer lists in the order of 100:1 - See above for why it pairs better with multiple courses. My original point was that there's really no excuse for not having a selection of very good beers instead of an array of bland lagers.


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## bum (20/2/13)

phoneyhuh said:


> My original point was that there's really no excuse for not having a selection of very good beers instead of an array of bland lagers.


Serious question - where do you propose they get these beers from? If I owned a restaurant I would not be remotely interested in running the Dan Murphys gusher-gauntlet. Buy a box per month direct from several breweries? Is there a market for it? People actually like and want the shitty beers that are the usual suspects.


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## manticle (20/2/13)

Also don't need to be hopped up palate wreckers as you put it bum. There's many, many styles in existence pre us hop craze (which I know you know).
Myself, I think I'd quite like a trois monts served with a caramelised poached pear and anglaise.


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## sp0rk (20/2/13)

I Don't know about other places, but here in Coffs one of our main fine eating districts is the Jetty strip (Harbour Drive)
Right at the end of this strip of restaurants is a bottle shop that stocks a great range of craft beers, imported euro ales and lagers and the bloke behind the counter says he was involved with CAMRA in the UK before he relocated here and seems to know quite a lot about beer
There is no reason for any of the restaurants not to take the 3 minute walk down to this bottleshop to grab a few cartons of something that is suited to the sort of hipster/snobby rich/interested customers that line the strip
Do any of them stock anything other than xxxx, vb, peroni or heini?
No, but they sure do seem to stock a lot of wines that are billed over $30 in most cases, I'm sure they could easily be selling bottles of Murrays Whale Ale or the like for $9 a bottle


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## bum (20/2/13)

manticle said:


> Also don't need to be hopped up palate wreckers as you put it bum. There's many, many styles in existence pre us hop craze (which I know you know).


But honestly, you could insert pretty much any style but "bland lager" into my rhetoric and it would be the same - I assumed that would be fairly understandable but I guess I was not clear. You could say stout, porter, any pale over, say 25IBU, anything very malt-forward and you're going to have a beer that will compliment specific dishes only.


manticle said:


> Myself, I think I'd quite like a trois monts served with a caramelised poached pear and anglaise.


Again, a very specific pairing and isn't at all what is under discussion here - an ala carte menu. It is just bad business to offer low demand, delicate products.


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## manticle (21/2/13)

But some high end restaurants are trying it because they are trying to recognise/create a market rather than pander to an existing one.


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## bum (21/2/13)

Sure. A niche exists and it should be serviced. I'm just not sure we should expect the same of the local Thai place (which is not horribly inauthentic so I thank my lucky stars) or whatever.


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## manticle (21/2/13)

My expectations are low. Doesn't mean my hopes should be too.


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## Truman42 (21/2/13)

The missus and I have walked into a restaurant before, been seated at our table, then looked at the drinks list. No decent beers, so got up and walked out.

Now we ask before were even seated what beers they have. It amazes me how many restaurants dont even serve stout. At one place we went to none of the bar staff even knew what stout was. I asked "Do you have any stout?" and the reply was .."umm... not sure (Asks other bar chick who says)......no but we have all these red wines here.." :unsure:


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## Dave70 (21/2/13)

Truman said:


> The missus and I have walked into a restaurant before, been seated at our table, then looked at the drinks list. No decent beers, so got up and walked out.



For chrissakes , you cant be serious. 

Do you honestly expect a restaurant to keep a fresh stocks of boutique beer on hand on the off chance some punter may wander in the door once in a blue moon an order a bottle with dinner?

If the food is good, I don't mind pairing it with a nice cold glass of New if need be.


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## DU99 (21/2/13)

try this menu they suggest what beer to have with what food.and there having 5 beer and 5 food degustation in may


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## NewtownClown (21/2/13)

manticle said:


> My expectations are low. Doesn't mean my hopes should be too.


 keeping expectations low means never being disappointed


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## Mirkin (21/2/13)

Beer is coming along like Wine did 30-40 years ago the battle of snobs drinking bottles and the masses glugging goon bag casks. Fighting a lot of misconceptions and crap along the way.

Australia is far behind many places when it comes to beer. However thanks to great craft brewers, festivals (like Bitter & Twisted in Maitland for example) and an ever expanding number of home brewers who are producing their own quality beers, the public profile of Craft Beer is slowing growing it's own identity that is not associated with megaswill. 

Truman has the right idea, and if it happens enough, if DEMAND is shown restaurants will begin to capitulate, but it will require a lot of people expanding their horizons. Change is uncomfortable for many people and businesses.

If you go somewhere for a meal and ask for a beer, say that you are after a craft beer - (even if it as mainstream as a James Squire). Living in the Hunter / Newcastle region I now often ask directly for a Murray's beer like Whale Ale or something before asking/looking at their list. Increase the profile of your local craft breweries with word of mouth, make their names known and that they're only 30km's down the road. Accessibility can make a huge difference. 

Food / Drink matching is as much about practice and preferences as anything else. Wine was appallingly married to food until the general education was increased, it just took time and interest.

get out and spread the good word!


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## verysupple (21/2/13)

bum said:


> when they're out or they want the beer they usually drink


I disagree. Restaurants have a wide range of (what they think is good) wine because people want something nice and a bit special when they go out. That's also why they have the Crownies and imported lagers - not becuase it's what people usually drink but because they think those beers are a bit more fancy.


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## verysupple (21/2/13)

bum said:


> Also you're more likely to get a wine that will traverse from pork belly entree to steak main




On the argument about a wine matching a wider range of dishes, isn't that a great reason to only have a handful of wines in the list. I mean if one wine is so versatile why have so many?

But serisously, if I'm at home and only want to open one bottle of wine I might compromise and open something that goes OK with both becuase I'm not THAT fussy. But if I was at a restaurant and the waiter recommended something because it would go with both the pork belly and a steak I'd ignore them for the rest of the night because they were talking sh*t. That is why they have so many to chose from.


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## bum (21/2/13)

But that is exactly my point - this isn't about matching one beverage with one dish. This is about having a sensible ala carte menu that reflects demand and is sustainable and economically viable. Much, much easier with wine.

I cannot fathom how so many of you are having trouble with this. Beer is more fragile (even if only due to ignorance of how to treat it), often more so with craft beer. Beer is something people are less willing to pay a premium on. The broader variety of flavours and mouthfeel available with the full spectrum of beer make it significantly harder to find ones that will not create noise for many of the dishes. Beers you hardly notice when you are drinking them fit the bill nicely and it just so happens that beers like that line up with demand.


verysupple said:


> I disagree. Restaurants have a wide range of (what they think is good) wine because people want something nice and a bit special when they go out. That's also why they have the Crownies and imported lagers - not becuase it's what people usually drink but because they think those beers are a bit more fancy.


So you cut out the bit I already said about Crownies so you could tell me the bit I already said about Crownies like it is news?

Awesome internetting. Just terrific.


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## Bribie G (21/2/13)

Ahhhh goon bags


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## Spiesy (21/2/13)

bum said:


> And you're also probably in the wrong country. Let's face it - the average person thinks those beers _are_ the fancy option and those restaurants _are_ trying - shitty though those options may be.
> 
> Regardless, if I ran a kitchen I wouldn't want to be serving palate-wrecking, hoppy beers and the like anyway.


I think you've missed my point... subbing any one, just one, of those beers - for something a little different, and probably a little more expensive, gives more options to more people and may even make some more money for the restaurant.


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## bum (21/2/13)

Sure, it may. But people in business tend to like money - if it was likely it would be fairly common practice.

Having said that, I don't think we're all that far away from a one-craft-beer-per-menu situation becoming a reality. I've seen White Rabbit dark ale on a few menus at not very fancy places about town (which is why I used it as an example in a previous post). See LC Rogers every so often too and (even though I don't think it is all that great) I think beers like this one are what would become the defacto craft option rather than the WR.


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## Spiesy (21/2/13)

OT, but I really rate Rogers... it's almost a mid-strength, is exactly 1 standard drink a bottle and has some flavour.
Perfect for when I want to have a few and then drive, or feel like smashing a few back, but not get pissed.

_"But people in business tend to like money - if it was likely it would be fairly common practice" - _ I don't understand the second part here.

If you're saying if it was likely to make more money, it would be common practice... hmmm... not exactly. Times changes, people change, demand changes. Subbing 1-2 of those beers is not taking sales away from your business, as the clientele interested in the international lager still has other international lager to chose from - but you may attract a new market and new clientele with a couple of different offerings.

Case in point, my wife took me out to a nice cocktail bar the other week for some pre-dinner drinks. I felt like a beer. There were 2 x fridges full of the usual suspects from the Foster's stable (which didn't even include Matilda Bay, from memory) - but nothing to my liking... not even the pseudo-mainstream craft beers from LC's. Lots and lots of spirits, cocktails and wine to choose from, but a terrible beer selection of LAGER. We left without having a drink.

Now I know I am NOT the majority, but I am part of a growing minority - and it would not have hurt their sales one bit to have dropped a couple of generic, "premium", international lagers for something with a slightly different appeal.


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## petesbrew (21/2/13)

Truman said:


> The missus and I have walked into a restaurant before, been seated at our table, then looked at the drinks list. No decent beers, so got up and walked out.
> 
> Now we ask before were even seated what beers they have. It amazes me how many restaurants dont even serve stout. At one place we went to none of the bar staff even knew what stout was. I asked "Do you have any stout?" and the reply was .."umm... not sure (Asks other bar chick who says)......no but we have all these red wines here.." :unsure:


Fair enough if you want a GOOD beer with your meal, but it's posts like this that make me glad I like wine as much as beer.

Went to one dodgy family steakhouse not long ago. Looked at the drinks list. Just the usual suspects. I asked if they have anything dark and the chick replied "nah we dont have any OLD beer".
sigh. "okay, um ,just...a glass of the house red thanks"

Had a camel burger from the $10 lunch specials list. Glad I ordered it. Wish I didn't eat it. It was totally farked.


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## bum (21/2/13)

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice, of course - I myself almost never by a beer at a restaurant due to limited range. But I'm not talking about what I think is good or "Right", just looking at the situation from a non-beer-enthusiast's eyes.

Say you own a restaurant. Say there's no expressed demand for a product - do you spend extra on replacing a known entity with an unknown hoping to change the mind of an ignorant audience and risk having it impact negatively on your main product?


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## petesbrew (21/2/13)

bum said:


> I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice, of course - I myself almost never by a beer at a restaurant due to limited range. But I'm not talking about what I think is good or "Right", just looking at the situation from a non-beer-enthusiast's eyes.
> 
> Say you own a restaurant. Say there's no expressed demand for a product - do you spend extra on replacing a known entity with an unknown hoping to change the mind of an ignorant audience and risk having it impact negatively on your main product?


It's good to see these days a few places are trying with an odd tap of something different.
Sure they need the sales of the favourites for the megaswill crowd.


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## Spiesy (21/2/13)

bum said:


> I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice, of course - I myself almost never by a beer at a restaurant due to limited range. But I'm not talking about what I think is good or "Right", just looking at the situation from a non-beer-enthusiast's eyes.
> 
> Say you own a restaurant. Say there's no expressed demand for a product - do you spend extra on replacing a known entity with an unknown hoping to change the mind of an ignorant audience and risk having it impact negatively on your main product?


Bum, sir, as I have repeatedly said - it's not hard to have a fair amount from column 'A' and a little bit from column 'B' - particularly if you're a decent restaurant or bar.

There was a time in Australia, not that long ago, when wine lists were similar to the majority of struggling beer menus that we encounter these days.

God bless my experiences in the USA, where not only do most half-decent restaurants have a good spread of commercial mega-swill AND craft beer... but it's on tap.


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## manticle (21/2/13)

A smart entrepeneur creates demand rather than panders to it.
Think of the future and invest in it (or even have a hand in creating it).


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## pk.sax (21/2/13)

Bum doesn't live in Queensland. That's all.




Well, actually, people are sheep, if it wasn't there, ain't nobody gonna order. Put it on there, add a descriptor or two and see it sell.
I've served a warm bottle of beer to an Asian chick a few weeks ago. The seller was the word 'organic' on the label. MG 'organic' steam ale. I have a lot of admiration for both their beer and their creativity  it's all about the marketing. Do you really think the masses can taste a difference between new, crown(piss), Hahn or whatever other bland sweet lager. Maybe a VB or a bitter, yea. But then again, to quote you, we aren't talking in context there. Let's give you an example of ordering wine in an alpine lodge in Austria, the host offered me a choice of Italian or Austrian, with tasters. I ended up liking the local wine. Now, this was where 99% of the tables ordered beer (and it's great beer). Wine is a slow mover and everything is hard to get up there, but still, the host was trying and it was appreciated.

If only the pig headed restauranters here gave half a shit about anything. I'd give you a full point for pointing out 'wrong country'.


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## Batz (21/2/13)

> BWS's Idea Of Beer Categories



You want a good slapping with a wet hop flower for ever looking at that. ! WTF are you thinking.

Batz


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## pk.sax (21/2/13)

DU99 said:


> try this menu they suggest what beer to have with what food.and there having 5 beer and 5 food degustation in may


Ty


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## winkle (21/2/13)

Batz said:


> You want a good slapping with a wet hop flower for ever looking at that. ! WTF are you thinking.
> 
> Batz


Geez Batz - are you trying to drag this thread back on track????



Good luck


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## tricache (21/2/13)

winkle said:


> Geez Batz - are you trying to drag this thread back on track????
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck


Hahaha yeah this thread went so far of track it needs a winch and the hubs locked


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## Tony (21/2/13)

Last year while on a training course in Sydney Myself and a workmate went to a steakhouse.

Food was great and after eyeing all the megaswil on tap i spied LCPA pint size bottles in the fridge.

Keep em commin i said 

Just a few bottles of something nice in the fridge was all it took to make my night


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