# Doc's Milestone Wheatwine



## Doc (6/8/08)

*Background*

I'm looking to brew a big beer. There are a couple of reasons for it.

1. A celebratory brew (250th)
2. A commemorative brew to be bought out for special occasions
3. Break in the new brew system (first upgrade to the AG brew system in close to 6 years).

I then went and did some research to get some idea of the landscape to do with WheatWine.
There isn't a lot of info about.
There is an online article from 2001 by BYO Mag here
I then wrote to Drew Beechum who writes in Beer Advocate Magazine (as well as others), and he has done an article on WheatWine in the latest issue of the BA Mag.

This got me thinking about what I wanted from my WheatWine. 
I've decided that I want mine to more English in style (ie hopping), and should be a nice deep golden/orange colour.
I've also found the glass that I think would accentuate it. 






I've come up the first hack at the recipe.
I'm pretty set on the grain bill.
As for the coriander and orange peel, they will probably just get lost in the hops. So may drop those, or go crazy with them instead.

Any thoughts ??

Doc


```
[b]Doc's WheatWine[/b]



A ProMash Recipe Report



BJCP Style and Style Guidelines

-------------------------------

12-A  Barleywine & Imperial Stout, English-style Barleywine



Min OG:  1.080   Max OG:  1.120

Min IBU:	50   Max IBU:   100

Min Clr:	25   Max Clr:	57  Color in EBC



Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (L):		  24.00	Wort Size (L):	 24.00

Total Grain (kg):		10.61

Anticipated OG:		  1.100	Plato:			 23.78

Anticipated EBC:		  41.2

Anticipated IBU:		  73.0

Brewhouse Efficiency:	   70 %

Wort Boil Time:			 90	Minutes



Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %	 Amount	 Name						  Origin		Potential EBC

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 40.1	 4.25 kg.  JWM Wheat Malt				Australia	  1.040	  4

 30.0	 3.18 kg.  JWM Export Pilsner			Australia	  1.037	  3

 10.0	 1.06 kg.  TF Flaked Barley			  UK			 1.034	  0

 10.0	 1.06 kg.  TF Torrefied Wheat			UK			 1.035	  3

  4.7	 0.50 kg.  Cane Sugar								   1.047	  0

  5.0	 0.53 kg.  TF Crystal Rye				UK			 1.031	281

  0.3	 0.03 kg.  Weyermann Carafa Special III  Germany		1.035   1748



Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.



Hops

   Amount	 Name							  Form	Alpha  IBU  Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 36.00 g.	 Stickelbrackt					 Pellet  12.40  48.9  60 min.

 66.00 g.	 Pacific Hallertau				 Pellet   4.20  15.5  30 min.

 56.00 g.	 D Saaz							Pellet   3.50   4.3  10 min.

 56.00 g.	 B Saaz							Pellet   3.50   4.3  10 min.





Extras

  Amount	  Name						   Type	  Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

  0.50 Oz	 Sweet Orange Peel			  Spice	  5 Min.(boil) 

  0.50 Oz	 Corriander Seed				Spice	  5 Min.(boil) 



Yeast

-----

DCL Yeast US-56 SafAle US Ale





Mash Schedule

-------------

Mash Type: Single Step



Grain kg:	10.11

Water Qts:   32.05 - Before Additional Infusions

Water L:	 30.33 - Before Additional Infusions



L Water Per kg Grain: 3.00 - Before Additional Infusions



Saccharification Rest Temp :  66  Time:  90

Mash-out Rest Temp :		  72  Time:  10

Sparge Temp :				 79  Time:  30





Total Mash Volume L: 37.08 - Dough-In Infusion Only



All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.
```


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## RobW (6/8/08)

How much yeast are you planning to pitch Doc?


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## T.D. (6/8/08)

G'day Doc, as I said the other day, the whole concept is a great idea I reckon. So often when we brew big strong beers they are barley-based. But every strong wheat I've ever tried has been amazing. I reckon wheat really lends itself well to a BIG gravity.

The recipe looks like a cracker too! A couple of things though, is there any particular reason for the flaked barley? This beer won't be short on body that's for sure, so just wondering if you need the flaked barley in there. And yeah, I agree about ditching the corriander and orange peel, I think this one will be bursting with character without any need for those extras.

I love that rich orange colour you get with these strong wheat beers too. Should be a great beer Doc!


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## newguy (6/8/08)

A brewpub in Regina, SK called the Bushwakker produced a wheatwine some time ago. It was made with 100% wheat, kind of along the lines of an all wheat version of an old ale. It was very tasty. Link here. If you go to the "brewery" link and scroll down you'll find the brewer's email (Mitch - very nice guy). I'm sure he wouldn't mind sharing info with you.


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## PostModern (6/8/08)

Would you not benefit from a more characterful yeast? US-05 seems a little neutral... then again, are wine yeasts generally characterful or just big attenuators?


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## Doc (6/8/08)

RobW said:


> How much yeast are you planning to pitch Doc?



Probably 2-3 12gr sachets



T.D. said:


> G'day Doc, as I said the other day, the whole concept is a great idea I reckon. So often when we brew big strong beers they are barley-based. But every strong wheat I've ever tried has been amazing. I reckon wheat really lends itself well to a BIG gravity.
> 
> The recipe looks like a cracker too! A couple of things though, is there any particular reason for the flaked barley? This beer won't be short on body that's for sure, so just wondering if you need the flaked barley in there. And yeah, I agree about ditching the corriander and orange peel, I think this one will be bursting with character without any need for those extras.
> 
> I love that rich orange colour you get with these strong wheat beers too. Should be a great beer Doc!




The Flaked Barley is in there as I've had it hanging around for quite some time. I was thinking it might give it some velvety mouthfeel similar to oats. Mmm, maybe I'll substitute some oats for it.



newguy said:


> A brewpub in Regina, SK called the Bushwakker produced a wheatwine some time ago. It was made with 100% wheat, kind of along the lines of an all wheat version of an old ale. It was very tasty. Link here. If you go to the "brewery" link and scroll down you'll find the brewer's email (Mitch - very nice guy). I'm sure he wouldn't mind sharing info with you.



I've done a 100% wheat beer before. Using a mix of wheat, crystal wheat, chocolate wheat. It was a Wheat Porter. A very nice beer too.



PostModern said:


> Would you not benefit from a more characterful yeast? US-05 seems a little neutral... then again, are wine yeasts generally characterful or just big attenuators?



I didn't really want to go Belgian, or German Wheat. I wanted the character of the grist and the hops to come through, so went neutral. Also easy to just pitch a whole bunch of yeast to it.

Doc


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## Fents (6/8/08)

250th! biggups doc, no one can test.


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## Doc (6/8/08)

Fents said:


> 250th! biggups doc, no one can test.



The brew numbers have really slowed down since I went no chill, as a single batch is 40 litres.
The upgrade to the AG brew system means a single batch will now be 60 litres, so it will be a loooong time before I hit 500 

Doc


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## Swizzle (6/8/08)

I reckon I'm up to about 20-25 brews in the past 18 months or so and it has caused the odd moment of introspection (about bad habits...) I must admit. You have given me hope and inspiration.

I charge my glass to you Doc - what a milestone!


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## Cortez The Killer (6/8/08)

Just out of curiosity Doc - how long ago was batch #1 ???

Cheers


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## PostModern (6/8/08)

Doc said:


> I didn't really want to go Belgian, or German Wheat. I wanted the character of the grist and the hops to come through, so went neutral. Also easy to just pitch a whole bunch of yeast to it.



I was thinking Whitbread or Thames or Burton rather than a continental yeast. Could just pitch onto the trub of a Best Bitter or something. You could then pitch some 05 into the bottling bucket and prime with nothing. Anyway, I don't think you'll be lacking in flavour with that grain bill and that OG!


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## Fents (6/8/08)

Doc said:


> The brew numbers have really slowed down since I went no chill, as a single batch is 40 litres.
> The upgrade to the AG brew system means a single batch will now be 60 litres, so it will be a loooong time before I hit 500
> 
> Doc



yea i just started doing big 80L batch's too. brew more beer but less often i reckon is the way forward. plus i hear it wont be long till you scale back down to small batch's cause its taking you so long on brew day with that looming zimma frame


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## Muggus (6/8/08)

Every thought about oaking some of it for that authentic 'wine-like' character, Doc?


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## Doc (6/8/08)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Just out of curiosity Doc - how long ago was batch #1 ???



In 2000.



Muggus said:


> Every thought about oaking some of it for that authentic 'wine-like' character, Doc?



Interesting. 
I am toying with the idea of doing a double batch.
Maybe age one in a keg on oak before bottling.

Bottling will be into champagne bottles too.

Doc


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## Weizguy (6/8/08)

G'day Doc,

Have you tasted the Unibroue Don de Dieu (a wheat triple at 9%)?
It's lightly hopped, so not like a barleywine style at all. Just a thought.
You could use a Belgian yeast like the Unibroue yeast from Wyeast (VSS W3864), or a true weizen yeast.

I recently made a 1.089 O.G. Wheat beer for the HAG case swap. It fermented out quite well with the W3638 (Bavarian wheat) yeast, and got to about 80% apparent attenuation. It probably needs a few months to mature (at ~10% ABV), but you can have one if you're up this way. Give me some prior notice and I'll drop a bottle to MHB's for you, if you're keen  

It's quite fruity at the moment, due to lots of low alpha Strisselspalt hops (maybe not the best idea), and the yeast.
It's pale, thick-bodied and sweet, with very few phenolics...but I've only tasted it flat.
The alcohol is well hidden. Not very malty, though. May be considered an Imperial Hefeweizen.

Recipe to go up on the Recipe database as Starkbierzeit Weizenhellbock soon.

Hope this helps, rather than obfuscates your choices. Depends if this appeals 2U, I s'pose.

Les


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## Doc (6/8/08)

Thanks for the feedback Les.
Haven't had Unibroue Don de Dieu but have had other Unibroue beers.

I had considered a Wheat yeast, but moved away from that when I decided on attempting to hit a nice orange colour (rather than the original plan of a massive Dunkelweizen), and looking to make it more hop forward and not have the overtones of a weizen yeast to conflict with clove and other phenols.

Also thanks for the offer. Not sure when I'm back up that way (maybe for the bottling of the Barrel Baltic Porter ??).

Doc


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## Muggus (6/8/08)

After giving it some thought, I reckon a wheat 'wine' could go a number of ways.

You could essentially make an imperial hefeweizen, or helles weizenbock, which would be an extra strong Bavarian-style wheat beer, with a characterful yeast, hazy appearance, and creamy carbonation (not sure if that works at high abv)
Sticking with the German theme, you could do a high strength Berliner Weisse...not sure how that'd turn out though.

Then of course, there's the extra strength Belgian style Witbier...which kinda looks like what you're going for Doc...and for mine, really steps into Tripel/Blonde Belgian strong ale territory.

And of course, theres the Barley Wine made with wheat sort of beer, which is what I thought of when the name 'wheat wine' comes to mind. 
Naturally most of the grist would have to be wheat malt of any variety. Ideally you'd want to keep the hop level reasonably high, with enough bitterness to balance but certainly not over the top in the flavour/aroma. 
As with the yeast, reckon a either a neutral, well attentuating yeast, or perhaps a British ale yeast, would make for an interesting beer, where the character of the malt is really accentuated.

Oh, I forgot the other, possibly the most well-renowned, wheat beer. The lambic.
Yeah, not sure how airbourne bactaria deal with high gravity and high alcohol environments...but hey! I'd love to try one!


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## Stuster (6/8/08)

Doc said:


> I've decided that I want mine to more English in style (ie hopping), and should be a nice deep golden/orange colour.
> 
> Anticipated EBC: 41.2



Can't really see where that much colour could be coming from in your recipe (not the 30g of Carafa) but it might not be quite what you want after all. :huh: 

Other than that, looks good. I think it would be best to drop the peel and coriander as it'll just muddy things. And how about crystal wheat instead of the crystal rye just to keep it more simply wheat.


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## Doc (6/8/08)

Stuster said:


> Can't really see where that much colour could be coming from in your recipe (not the 30g of Carafa) but it might not be quite what you want after all. :huh:
> 
> Other than that, looks good. I think it would be best to drop the peel and coriander as it'll just muddy things. And how about crystal wheat instead of the crystal rye just to keep it more simply wheat.



Definitely going to drop the coriander and orange peel.
Half a kilo of Crystal Rye is giving most of the colour, with the Carafa topping it up just a little to get to the 41 EBC.
Was using the Rye to give it another dimension more than just more wheat, mainly on the basis of a Roggenbier I have in a fermenter at the moment that is tasting awesome.

All this feedback is really helping, as it makes me re-analyse each of my decisions and reasoning.

Doc


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## Stuster (6/8/08)

Well, rye is very nice so I guess I re-vote to keep the rye. Might end up a little darker than deep golden/orange though. How about subbing some of crystal rye for crystal wheat and using some rye malt as well.


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## Jye (6/8/08)

Doc, I brewed mine nearly 10 months ago and I had plans to drink it over the next 2-3 years... but it really started to hit its strides at 6 months and there is currently just over half the bottles left   Ive already got plans for the next one soon.

Im very happy with how mine turned out so I would recommend just keeping it simple and not to use any spices unless youre going for a biggish beglian.

I plan on cracking the next bottle next week and will post some pics.

*Wheat Wine*

Brew Type: All Grain Date: 28/10/2007 
Style: American Barleywine Brewer: Jye
Batch Size: 16.00 L Assistant Brewer: 
Boil Volume: 23.00 L Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.0 % Equipment: SK 
Actual Efficiency: 70.9 % 
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.25 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 70.2 % 
1.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 19.8 % 
0.60 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 9.9 % 

30.00 gm Simcoe [11.90%] (60 min) Hops 43.1 IBU 
30.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.90%] (20 min) Hops 19.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.90%] (5 min) Hops 6.4 IBU 

0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
5.00 gm 5.2 (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 

2 Pkgs Safale American US-56 Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.100 SG (1.080-1.125 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.090 SG 
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.023 SG (1.020-1.035 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.018 SG 
Estimated Color: 9.1 EBC (19.7-43.3 EBC) Color [Color] 
Bitterness: 69.0 IBU (50.0-100.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 5.2 AAU 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 10.1 % (8.0-13.0 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 9.4 % 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Protein Rest Add 9.26 L of water at 61.7 C 55.0 C 20 min 
Saccrification Add 7.08 L of water at 81.0 C 65.0 C 60 min


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## glennheinzel (7/8/08)

Re: Yeast. I know that you didn't really want to go Belgian, however you were considering using orange peel and coriander at one stage. Perhaps Belgian might be an option if you used the right strain?

Not that I'm an expert, but I'm thinking that Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale could compliment the rest of the recipe.



> This strain produces complex esters balanced with earthy/spicy notes. Slightly tart and dry with a peppery finish. A perfect strain for farmhouse ales and saisons.


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## Doc (7/8/08)

Rukh said:


> Re: Yeast. I know that you didn't really want to go Belgian, however you were considering using orange peel and coriander at one stage. Perhaps Belgian might be an option if you used the right strain?
> 
> Not that I'm an expert, but I'm thinking that Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale could compliment the rest of the recipe.



Yeah, I've backed away from the Belgian as the next brew after this one will be a Quad.
That would be a great yeast, but may bend the beer more towards a Saison, and I don't really want it going that way.

Got the new element in the second URN tonight. Water tests and calibration of equip tomorrow, then all systems go. If the Hills Brewers weren't out on expedition on Saturday it would have been on.

Doc


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## Doc (23/8/08)

*Game ON*

The Milestone Wheatwine is being brewed tomorrow.
I've got the new brewrig all setup, the grain (close to 20kg) is all measured and crushed.
Decided to do two cubes worth of it ( 1 x 22.5 litres and 1 x 17.5 litres). Might as well put the new kit through its paces properly 

Here are a few pics.

The rack with the two URNs on top, the 70 litre icebox on the sliding shelf, and the 18gal coverted keg on top of a NASA burner.




Showing the shelf sliding out for the sparge.



The custom (read bigger) Beerbelly Falsey in the 70 litre icebox.



Beers,
Doc


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## T.D. (23/8/08)

Good stuff Darren, definitely keen to hear how this one goes. Hope it all goes to plan on the day!

Your rig is looking good too mate! I have a 30L urn that's identical to yours - I always thought it was pretty big, but it looks tiny compared to everything else in your setup these days! :lol:


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## Doc (24/8/08)

Mashed in about 45mins ago.
Undershot my sacc temp by a few degrees for the first time in a very very long time.
The irony is that the HLT's were slightly over temp and I'd added cold water to bring them back into line.

Anyho, a jug of boiling water and a little more from the HLT and I hit 66 on the nose.

Here is the 19+kg of grist



And then again all mashed in.



I underlet from one urn and dumped from the other urn down the sides. Zero dough balls. Nice.

Doc


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## Doc (24/8/08)

The brew is progressing well.
Batch sparged it, and had a couple of almost stuck sparges, probably due to the amount of wheat and how quickly I was running it off.
Thought I'd missed my gravity but I hadn't added the sugar. Did that and seems on track.
Thought I'd missed my volume into the keg. I had converted from Gal to Litres using US Imperial and got 68 litres. Seems it is normal Imperial so 82 litres. I hope so, as that means I'm right on the money.
Just about to add the 60 minute hops.

Doc


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## T.D. (24/8/08)

Cripes Doc, that's a serious amount of grain!

Looking good! How was the colour of the run-off???


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## peas_and_corn (24/8/08)

Wow, 250! The recipe looks really nice, post again when it's finished, I'd love to hear how it goes!


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## Doc (24/8/08)

T.D. said:


> Cripes Doc, that's a serious amount of grain!
> 
> Looking good! How was the colour of the run-off???



Here is the colour of the runoff.




and some leftovers from the bottom of the kettle.




Brewday went pretty well. Just a little low on the FG. 
Smells awesome. Very very viscous 

Doc


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## T.D. (24/8/08)

Doc said:


> Here is the colour of the runoff.
> 
> and some leftovers from the bottom of the kettle.
> 
> ...



Fermented it already Doc?!  :lol: 

Colour looks awesome.


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## Doc (24/8/08)

T.D. said:


> Fermented it already Doc?!  :lol:
> 
> Colour looks awesome.



First cube will hit some yeast tomorrow 
Second cube will be when my wife has emptied some more champagne bottles.

Doc


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## peas_and_corn (20/5/09)

Just reviving this thread because I am wondering how it all went!


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## brettprevans (20/5/09)

yeah doc how did she turn out. I was thinking about brewing something for my 30th next year and wanted something other than a barley wine. this could be it.

edit: Jye. what was your strike temp?


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## Doc (20/5/09)

It went great. The beer has come out fantastic. A really awesome colour, with great carbonation in the champagne bottles.
This is one very flavoursome enjoyable beer.
I shared the first bottle with Matt from St. Peters brewery after doing a brewday there with him in Nov last year. Rukh, Matt and myself were all amazed how well it was drinking sooo young. 
Then I had another over Xmas with some family, and another recently for a family occasion.
I've also gifted a couple to some local brewers who got a visit from the "Stalk". 

The only _off comment_ I have had has been 2 local Sydney commercial/micro brewers who just thought it was a bit much, and a little too hoppy. I advised them that it had mellowed, but that was sorta the point 

Beers,
Doc


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## brettprevans (20/5/09)

great to hear doc. what was your strike temp?


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## Doc (20/5/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> great to hear doc. what was your strike temp?



I did a single infusion @ 66degC.

Beers,
Doc


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## Josh (20/5/09)

Great idea Doc. My 10 year brewing anniversary is coming up in July. I was thinking of doing something like this.


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## brettprevans (21/5/09)

Doc said:


> I did a single infusion @ 66degC.
> 
> Beers,
> Doc


after looking at your recipe again i see you did do a 66C single infusion. i mustnt have looked properly and saw the mashout temp etc and assumed it was a step mash. thanks


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## Jye (16/8/09)

Doc said:


> Rukh, Matt and myself were all amazed how well it was drinking sooo young.
> 
> The only _off comment_ I have had has been 2 local Sydney commercial/micro brewers who just thought it was a bit much, and a little too hoppy. I advised them that it had mellowed, but that was sorta the point



Its nearly 1 yr Doc, how is it coming along?

We had a barley wine night a couple of weeks ago where we crack both of my wheat wines and a Mikkeller Hvedegoop. I was really surprised at how similar they are, Hvedegoop was much more bitter but over all the malt profile was the same. And I know what you mean about drinking young, everyone preferred my 7 month old over the 2 yr version.

Batch 100 is coming up for me so I can see another one being brewed :icon_cheers:


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## winkle (16/8/09)

Jye said:


> Its nearly 1 yr Doc, how is it coming along?
> 
> We had a barley wine night a couple of weeks ago where we crack both of my wheat wines and a Mikkeller Hvedegoop. I was really surprised at how similar they are, Hvedegoop was much more bitter but over all the malt profile was the same. And I know what you mean about drinking young, everyone preferred my 7 month old over the 2 yr version.
> 
> Batch 100 is coming up for me so I can see another one being brewed :icon_cheers:



Hey, in 14 batches I'll have 150 racked up - this recipe sounds like way to go.
Good one Doc :icon_cheers: .


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