# Belgian Beer Lovers Unite!



## tangent (3/1/06)

The thread that had to happen (again):

I'm a big lover of Chimay Tripel, Hoegaarden, Leffe Blonde and Forbidden Fruit, plus appreciate many more.
I've digested the book Brew like a Monk & currently finishing Farmhouse Ales which really are inspiring reading!
I've been gleaning tips from other Belgian lovers on this site, but I'd love to hear about some more beer reviews and home recipes.

What do you like about the mousey, wet cardboard, horse smell of Brettanomyces?
What is it about the sour lactic acid of a cherry lambic that curls your toes?
Do you feel like a rebel breaking the Reinheitsgebot or brewing a Belgian Specialty Ale where the BJCP say "guidelines, what guidelines"? h34r: 

I've formulated 2 recipes recently:
View attachment 5352

View attachment 5353

They tend to change on brewday, so these are the corrected afterwards recipes.

Bring it on Malnourished! I'd love to hear more about Cantillon's Ros de Gambrinus.


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## Snow (3/1/06)

I've always been attracted to Belgian ales because they are so interesting, complex and challenging to brew. I always get the greatest personal satisfaction from getting a Belgian right, than any other beer style I've brewed.

I'm half way through reading BLAM and have decided to dedicate 2006 to Belgian ales (after I've done Batz's smoked porter, of course  ). Although, I don't think I'm quite yet brave enought to try and brew with lambic cultures. I think I'll try and perfect pale ales, dubbels and tripels first...

More power to Belgian lovers! :super: 

- Snow


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## Malnourished (3/1/06)

tangent said:


> Bring it on Malnourished! I'd love to hear more about Cantillon's Ros de Gambrinus.


OK, well here's an edited version of my Ratebeer rating (4.7/5.) It's long-winded and I don't think it's my best work but it'll have to do for now.


> Bottled 2003, drank September 2004. Holy crap. My expectations for this beer really couldnt have been any higher, so I was expecting to be at least mildly disappointed. Wrong! Hazy deep pink-red colour which pours with a massive head which disintegrates to nothing very quickly. The first aroma that hit me was of sweat - in fact it looked like the cork had been sweating - it was very wet, but came out easily. Has a slight raspberry jam note, but I thought it smelled more like cherries than raspberries (I think they use a small proportion of cherries too.) Theres a fair bit of oak character, a touch of cheese in there and perhaps some vanilla. Theres not much of the classic Brett. aroma until it warms a fair bit. I perhaps would have liked a bit more funkiness in the aroma than this had. Its worth noting that this is NOT best served at 6-7C as the brewery suggests - I liked it much better warm. The taste starts out lightly astringent without any discernible sweetness, then a blistering sourness hits which is just awesome. At colder temperatures its a really clean, lactic (and perhaps a bit citric) sourness but as it warms the vinegary, acetic flavours come through which really make this beer awesome. I note that lots of other raters found this too dry but I didnt find it particularly so, though its definitely not sweet! Theres no apparent raspberry flavour and carbonation is high. With a bit more funkiness this would be the perfect beer. Brilliant.
> Rerate: Had another bottle of this, thinking that Id probably rate it down because I was getting a bit Cantilloned out. I was wrong - this stuff is great. Easily my favourite Cantillon.



As far as brewing Belgians goes, I don't have very much experience, and my results have been somewhat mixed. My pLambic is approaching 3 years but it never got particularly good (mainly because I didn't really know what I was doing at the time) and seems to be getting worse, though the part to which I added Shiraz grapes is mildly promising. I'll probably bottle it all some time this winter, or maybe not. It's not like there's any rush! I doubt I'll bother trying another, but I'm keen to have a play with the Wyeast Roeselare blend at some point.


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## tangent (3/1/06)

> My pLambic is approaching 3 years but it never got particularly good (mainly because I didn't really know what I was doing at the time) and seems to be getting worse, though the part to which I added Shiraz grapes is mildly promising.


have you got the original recipe? - i'd love some more details.


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## Malnourished (3/1/06)

tangent said:


> have you got the original recipe? - i'd love some more details.
> [post="100567"][/post]​


Well it's not so much about the recipe as the process, but here's what I did.

2/3 pils malt, 1/3 flaked wheat to OG 1.045. Infusion mash on the high end to maximise dextrin production. Sparge at as close to 100C as possible. 

100g nasty-looking "hops" from the local health food store, left out in the summer sun for a few weeks, then baked lightly and left to rest for a few weeks in a cool, dark place. Boil a bit over 2hrs.

Fermentation was where I started making some pretty significant mistakes. I primary fermented with S-04 (mistake #1), racked (#2) into plastic (#3) and then added the Wyeast Blend.

If I were to do it again, I'd do the following (based on Raj Apte's posts to the pLambic digest):
Immersion chill to 45C, chuck a handful of malt into the wort in the boiler, leave overnight, rack off trub into glass carboy and pitch Wyeast Blend, then wait.

If you are serious about doing this kind of thing you really should read Jim Liddil's amazing article here http://brewery.org/brewery/library/LmbicJL0696.html and subscribe to, and read the archives of the new pLambic digest. A few guys on there (Apte, particularly) really know their stuff. Guinard's Lambic style series book is really good if you can find it too - I think it's more useful with regard to lambic than Wild Brews once you disregard the crazy-short fermentation times his recipes suggest.


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## Screwtop (3/1/06)

I really need to make much larger batches of Duvel. Store it away to mature with good intentions, but then I think about it and can't resist a taste. "Wow better than last time" it improves so much with time. Tasting weekly the stock just doesn't last long enough.


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## Mr Bond (3/1/06)

Screwtop said:


> I really need to make much larger batches of Duvel. Store it away to mature with good intentions, but then I think about it and can't resist a taste. "Wow better than last time" it improves so much with time. Tasting weekly the stock just doesn't last long enough.
> [post="100572"][/post]​



I assume you are doing the Grumpys Duvel clone with the correct type yeast?

If so have u done a side by side tasting with the real thing,and if so how did it stack up?


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## Screwtop (3/1/06)

Brauluver said:


> Screwtop said:
> 
> 
> > I really need to make much larger batches of Duvel. Store it away to mature with good intentions, but then I think about it and can't resist a taste. "Wow better than last time" it improves so much with time. Tasting weekly the stock just doesn't last long enough.
> ...



Yep Grumpys with a few mods and W1388 at 20 deg. Yeast roused a couple of times to get FG down as low as possible and some original wort to prime with a little champers yeast from friend who is winemaker. Then bottles are cold cond, slow to condition but result is great. Small volume, but Wow! Not exactly the Grumpys clone. All this is not my idea, the winemaking friend is a Duvel lover and HBer. SBS tasting - very, close to the real deal. Except for the last buy from Theo's Bottlo at Maroochydore. It was foul, tasted like it had been refrigerated, then allowed to warm before refrigerating again. Previous to this all from this outlet have been good. At $10.45 a pop I'm glad I brew my own.


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## tangent (3/1/06)

> a little champers yeast from friend who is winemaker


almost all HBS have "champagne" yeast avail dried.
it's all i use for cider

what about adding shiraz grapes, where from, how crushed and ferment temps?


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## homekegger1 (9/3/06)

Tried my first Chimay Blue today. And at $8 for a 330ml bottle I was a little sceptical. But with a 9% alcohol content and one of the best tasting beers I have ever had I must say I am now a big fan. 

I thought the Duval was a tasty drop but this has certainly raised my eyebrow. 

I am glad I actually found it and tried it. :chug: :chug: :chug: 

What are your favourite beers...

Cheers 

Craig

p.s. does anyone know of an easy copy of this style of beer of the non-mash brewer???


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## kungy (9/3/06)

Love the Belgian Beers. My favourites are Duvel and Forbidden Fruit. 

Can't help you with the recipes, just the advice that a Belgian Liquid Yeast is pretty much essential to replicate the recipes.

Will


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## warrenlw63 (9/3/06)

Hadn't had Rochefort 10 for a couple of years.  

Got all nostalgic and had a bottle last night... Now this is a beer that hasn't lost anything. High alc. Yet so smooth with a clean finish.  

The beer world's answer to rum and raisin icecream. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## racemate (10/3/06)

Has anyone had New Glarus Red...It's a Belgian clone from Wisconsin that's scooped up a pile of awards...and put the Belgians up a kriek without a mash paddle...ok I'm drunk..that was a horrible pun....anyway the one beer I've had in my lifetime that destroyed my impressions of what beer was. I lived in Oregon and I could only find it occasionally and after that it didn't come around at all...I missed it and still do. If anybody ever goes to Milwaukee or Chicago or those environs, drink one for me..
They use 5 lbs of montmorency cherries per gallon of beer (can we even get good sour cherries in Aus?) I attempted a few clones in the states and they were very good...but they paled..
Anybody?
oh, wait, link http://www.newglarusbrewing.com/beers/belgian.html


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## kook (10/3/06)

I've had New Glarus Belgian Red, heres my (brief) notes:

*New Glarus Belgian Red - 86/100*
_Aroma 8/10, Appearance 4/5, Flavour 9/10, Palate 4/5, Overall 18/20._
_Notes:_ Marzipan aroma with cherry stones, slightly woody too. Sweet start with a big fruity cherry flavour. So balanced, medium bodied and refreshing. Red with a short pink head. Wonderful fruit beer.


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## Malnourished (10/3/06)

racemate said:


> (can we even get good sour cherries in Aus?)


Yep. I get Morello cherries at one of those pick-your-own places. It's way cheaper than regular cherries and they don't charge you admission either because nobody eats them straight off the tree.

The ones I used this year are pretty intensely sour. I've never had NG Belgian Red so I can't really offer much by way of a comparison.


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## neonmeate (10/3/06)

you can also get those big jars of hungarian morello cherries in syrup that work well although obviously not as well as fresh stuff.

btw i had new glarus a few years back and i loved it! absolutely amazingly rich cherry flavour - and marzipanny as kook says. not much in the way of actual beer underneath but who cares. i hope megabeer or IBS gets it in one day...

i can recommend (and i think malnourished can also recommend) mahlab to get the marzipanny flavour. these are basically a particular type of cherry stone, dried and designed to be used in middle-eastern cakes etc. you can get em from herbies here in sydney, in rozelle.


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## mhan7073 (11/4/06)

My favourite two belgian beers at the moment are triple karmeliert and delirium tremens. I hear lots of people say "tastes great on a hot summer's day" but heading into winter, these beers absolutely do the trick at about 8-9 %. 

I do find brewing belgian beers at home quite exspensive. The yeast is of paramount importance (isn't it always). If you plan to brew high alcohol beers 8-13% then you really can't go past those recappable grolsch bottles. I recently bottle a batch in a 1.5l grolsch recappable magnum, might want to save that one for a party though as it's got the punch of half a bottle of spirits.

I also recommend you buy the glasses- they're quite expensive for glasses but add so much to the enjoyment of the beer. 

At the moment I'm trying to get a really good recipe for a belgian style barley wine. 

All the best brewing,

Mic


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## bindi (11/4/06)

I do find brewing belgian beers at home quite exspensive. The yeast is of paramount importance (isn't it always). If you plan to brew high alcohol beers 8-13% then you really can't go past those recappable grolsch bottles. I recently bottle a batch in a 1.5l grolsch recappable magnum, might want to save that one for a party though as it's got the punch of half a bottle of spirits.

I also recommend you buy the glasses- they're quite expensive for glasses but add so much to the enjoyment of the beer. 

[/quote]

I feel you are 'preaching to [a lot of] the converted' here, like me.
Welcome 
Time for another pint of [guess what.. Beer]


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## goatherder (11/4/06)

homekegger1 said:


> Tried my first Chimay Blue today. And at $8 for a 330ml bottle I was a little sceptical. But with a 9% alcohol content and one of the best tasting beers I have ever had I must say I am now a big fan.



Have a crack at the Chimay Grand Reserve. It's the one in the 750ml bottle with the champagne cork. It's better than the Blue in my opinion. At about 18 bucks it's an expensive bottle of beer, but considering a decent bottle of wine can cost you this much and more, I reckon it's good value. It's also a damn fine replacement for a bottle of wine over dinner.

My first experience with Trappists was in Belgium last year. I had heard of them but never tasted them, and I didn't know one from the other. I told the barmaid "I'd like to try a Trappist". She asked which one and I said "something nice". She handed me a Rochefort 10. My beer world changed completely right there.


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## mhan7073 (12/4/06)

Maybe I am preaching to the converted.

Has anyone tried in of the American belgian-esque brews? There's quite a number, and I think can give you a good idea in how you can manipulate current brewing trends.

In terms of home brew belgian costs, I'm considering blending kits (in 2 fermentors). Say a brewferm ale with a coopers ale. That should dilute the cost (and hopefully not the beer).

Mic


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## neonmeate (12/4/06)

goatherder said:


> Have a crack at the Chimay Grand Reserve. It's the one in the 750ml bottle with the champagne cork. It's better than the Blue in my opinion.



don't be put off by the "grande reserve" thing - only difference between these is the cork. (and sometimes they are corked which is a bugger).

but the big bottles can age better. i got a 2000 magnum under the house that i will crack out one of these days.

i agree, good beer doesn't seem so expensive when you compare what you would get for a similar amount with wine.


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## mhan7073 (23/4/06)

Had a go at the chimay reserve last friday night. Nectar of the gods comes to mind. I love the way head retention and body. 

Where did you get the magnum from? I could only see the 750ml bottles.

Mic


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## monkale (30/4/06)

love the belgians the trappist monks are doing gods work. Im only new to this site but I got into brewing to try to clone some of those great works of art and a Duvel or a chimay tastes so much better out of its own glass also gives it that holy grail look  you can det some great belgian beer glasses on E-bay sent straight to your door at a good price a seller in SA has a store on E-bay called Bar Gear which has all the classic Belgian glasses cheers :beerbang:


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## sinkas (30/4/06)

That Ebay store, is not cheap at all, you should not have to pay more than about 7.50 for a belgian glass...


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## mhan7073 (21/5/06)

Hey Sinkas,

I've already bought four glasses from Bar gear (2 for me and 2 for a friend). If you know a place to get cheaper glasses share the knowledge.

I'd really like one of the big hoegaarden mugs, and definately the chimay blue glass.

Mic


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## MHD (21/5/06)

goatherder said:


> My first experience with Trappists was in Belgium last year. I had heard of them but never tasted them, and I didn't know one from the other. I told the barmaid "I'd like to try a Trappist". * She asked which one * and I said "something nice". She handed me a Rochefort 10. My beer world changed completely right there.
> [post="119732"][/post]​



Oh wouldn't it be wonderfull!


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## Linz (21/5/06)

guys,

you realise that you can buy those glasses new from the belgian beer cafe??


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## bconnery (28/5/06)

The Cantillon range is absolutely awesome!
I've heard that the International Beer Shop site based in Perth now has them and I would heartily recommend it if you can spare the large wad of cash. 
I was fortunate enough to spend a long weekend in Brussels a few years back and visited the brewery. 

Rose de Gambrinus is everything a fruit beer can and should be. Hints of sweetness but a lovely tart flavour and so much complexity. For years I considered it my favourite beer ever tasted. 
It has since lost to an aged Gouden Carolus Grand Cru de Kaiser but it was a close run thing...

I'm a big fan of the way Belgians use malts and yeasts to achieve the majority of their flavours. I do love hops but you can get hop biased beers everywhere.
As for the Reihensgebot (sp...) It is a nice idea in theory, and great when you are talking about pilsners and dunkels etc etc but I've never been one for restrictions...
Fruit, spice whatever. If it tastes great who's to argue?!


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## mhan7073 (28/5/06)

The Cantillion beer labels are pretty cool. Website is http://www.cantillon.be if anyone wants to check it out. 

Anyway, I cracked open another bottle of one of my belgian-esque homebrews. I made it really basically, just using the brewferm triple kit, substituting actual sugar for caster sugar, and boiling the water I used (and then cooling it). Followed the instructions on the pack, aerated the yeast and so on.

My first tasting was after 8 weeks, the head didn't last long enough, the beer tasted like normal beer, not belgian-esque at all. 

I had another tasting last week (after 16 weeks) and the head problem was solved (nice and generous and good retention), the flavour was maturing (though a bit sweet still), and hopefully with a bit more bottle conditioning under the house it should come along well.

My other belgian brew, made with Gallia kit has a nice colour, and plenty of head, but the flavour is severly lacking, not in intensity, but in "niceness." I don't think it had anything to do with how I made it (again pretty basic, but this time used Belgian candy sugar). It reminds me of Orval, which for my palate, is merely a ludicrous attempt to combat rising petrol prices...

Has anyone else had a go with the Brewferm kits? I think I'm going to try the Ambiorix next, largley because I like the name (ref From Caesar's Gallic Wars, but conjures up fond memories of Asterix and Obelix cartoons).

Would like to know how others are getting on.

Thanks,

Mic


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## Jens-Kristian (29/5/06)

I definitely have a thing for Tripel Karmeliet. It has a lot of those Marzipan/Caramel/Vanilla notes mentioned earlier in the thread and just makes you want more. I like a beer with a good bit of alcohol, but only really if you don't taste it. I'm not much for strong beers where you know there's a high percentage of alcohol in it because . . well, it tastes of Vodka.




bconnery said:


> As for the Reihensgebot (sp...) It is a nice idea in theory, and great when you are talking about pilsners and dunkels etc etc but I've never been one for restrictions...
> [post="129766"][/post]​



In my opinion, the Reinheitsgebot is heavily overrated. Yes, it sounds nice in many ways - a law on beer set down in 15 . . is it 56? My main problem though, is that the law wasn't set down in order to create any form of quality standard - it was merely done as a a consequence of the King of Bavaria having the sole rights to growing barley and therefore did not want to risk brewers substituting part of the grist in order to save money. In short . . well, it was an act of trade monopoly, really.

What annoys me with it isn't that it exists - that's alright, but I think there should be more freedom from it. Brewers should be allowed to brew as they like and if they choose to adhere to the Reinheitsgebot, then let them. After all, the Reinheitsgebot was changed along the way anyway in order to include hops, which were not originally in the list of allowed ingredients.

The fact is, the Reinheitsgebot doesn't assure good beer by any standards. It merely means . . well, that you know the ingredients can only be water, malted barley, hops and yeast. 

Still . . . the Germans do make great beer though!

I just think it would be more relevant if it was a quality standard instead of, historically at least, a trade standard.

Cheers,

Jens-Kristian


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## Stuster (29/5/06)

Hi mhan7073

just wondering about your belgian beers. i've never used those kits, but they certainly should be good for the price. what yeast do those kits come with? did you use the kit yeast or a liquid yeast?


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## mhan7073 (29/5/06)

Hey stuster,

I just use the kit yeast that they come with. Figured I couldn't knock them until I tried them, and they seem to do really well for packaged yeasts. Certainly aerating them helps.

If keeping costs down is an issue (isn't it always), where do you source your liquid yeasts, particularly where can you source any belgian liquid yeasts in Aus?

That's assuming you are using liquid yeasts... which I figured your question implied.

As for the cost of the brewfem kits, I found interesting reading the cost of coopers kits from a UK distributer of Homebrewing supplies. At 9 pounds a go or 22 Aussie dollars it really gives you an idea of import costs, taxes and charges. Infact, there Brewferm pricing is cheaper than there Coopers. Plus once you've converted from Euros and Pounds it always going to cost you many more in Aussie dollars.

Check out http://www.innhousebrewery.co.uk/ and for currency conversion 

http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Mic

Dislaimer. I am in no way affiliated with Brewferm or their subsidiary companies. Just thought I'd let you know.


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## Stuster (29/5/06)

Liquid yeasts are more expensive to buy than dry yeasts, but for some styles there are no dry yeasts that give you those flavours. If you split your yeasts up before use using the 'Ross' method, here. For me, the top two airlocked thread in the Common Ground forum were invaluable guides to yeast farming. (Thanks again Batz and Chiller.) You can also use the yeast from some bought bottles.

I've just made three batches of beer from the yeast I saved from the Xmas case swap last year. I just poured out the dregs from the bottle into a pre-sanitised sample vial from the chemist. Pour on some pre-boiled, pre-chilled water and seal it up. I made a starter a few months later and it took off within a few hours. After a few step ups, I pitched it into a brew and it came out well IMO.

The packet yeast is probably a more standard ale yeast that can stand up to drying. Most homebrew shops will carry White Labs of Wyeast products. They both make excellent yeasts which will give you more Belgian flavours in your brews. If they don't have Belgian yeasts they should be able to order some for you. If they can't, get a new homebrew shop. If you fill out your location in the Profile info in My Control Panel somebody can give you advice on where to get some from.

Wow, sorry for all the waffle. Hope that's helpful. Ask if any of that is unclear. Love those Belgians. :beerbang:


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## mhan7073 (30/5/06)

Thanks Stuster,

I'll definately look into it. 

From what I've read liquid yeasts are the go. But I still reckon you should give the brewferm ones a go, if you buy one of their kits. With the triple I seem to remember I had action in the airlock within half an hour.

Mic


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## Stuster (30/5/06)

Certainly worth giving the included yeast a go I agree.

Did the yeast have a number or something? Just wondering what yeast it is.


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## mhan7073 (30/5/06)

Hey,

There is definately a number on the yeast package. But I didn't record it, sorry.

Mic


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## zoidberg99 (6/6/06)

Ive recently become a lover of belgian beer, and the one that really floats my boat is a Kwak. 
Pauwel Kwak is indescribable. fantastically good! its not cheap, but so worth it. i first guzzled one down at the Belgian Beer Cafe at the Rocks in Sydney, served in a minature yard glass. 
I recomend the belgian beer cafe and the Kwak to any belgian beer fan.


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## tangent (6/6/06)

If anyone's interested, I've formulated an easy drinking (6%) version of a Dubbel:
View attachment Dubbel_Light__1.html
The yeast could be subbed for any number of Belgian yeasts since it's not really a high gravity beer but the strong ale yeast gives a bit of spicyness.
I'll bring a couple of bottles along to: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...topic=10470&hl= tonight if anyone wants to try some. Maybe a young APA as well.

Cheers


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## mhan7073 (29/11/06)

Hi Stuster,

I was driving past ESB on Monday and saw the door open, so I thought I'd pop in and maybe get some stuff. Someone (Gerrard?) was there clearing out there stock, but I was still able to buy two brewferm cans. I wanted to get a can of the triple, as my last attempt with that beer produced some reasonably good results and I only have one bottle left (albeit magnum sized).

Anyway I picked up the Breferm Ambiorizx and Diablo. Regarding the yeasts, they have a code on the packet. The ambiorix yeast has the code VDB and the Diablo yeast PQB. To my pleasant surprise when I opened the diablo kit there were two packets of yeast and two small brewferm instruction manuals. 

I'll let you know how I go. I'm thinking of throwing in some brown sugar with the ambiorix and maybe some honey with the diablo, I might also add some malt extract. 

Lastly, now that ESB is closing down there Peakhurst store, who else stocks brewferm kits? I tried to find out their distributors in Australia from the brewferm website, but my computer is having issues with macromedia flash.


Hope that helps,

Mic


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## Stuster (29/11/06)

I've no idea about those yeasts, mhan, but if they've worked for you in the past, go for it.  

For the sugar, it appears that dark brown sugar is not good in a double, but demarara or raw sugar will be fine. White sugar too probably. I've never used honey in a beer at all, but if that's the triple I can't see it going to wrong. White sugar is probably the most authentic thing to add, but experimentation is half the fun. :super:


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## DJR (29/11/06)

Dave's HB at North Sydney Oval stocks them, not sure if ESB was the main distributor though.


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## mhan7073 (29/11/06)

I might stay clear of the dark brown sugar then, I want to experiment enough without stuffing it... always a fine line. 

I'm tempted to thrown honey in the primary and then use sugar to carb the bottles. I think using honey in the secondary would be too risky because if the bottles don't carb you can kiss your nice big belgian head goodbye.


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## Stuster (29/11/06)

Well, just by chance my copy of Brew Like a Monk finally arrived this week. Apparently, some brewers do use honey in tripels.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by secondary. You'll probably be better off adding it after the main fermentation has taken place as otherwise you'll lose most/all of the aroma (though you might anyway). Just add it after a week in primary or if you rack to secondary then that's a good time.


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## Linz (29/11/06)

Guys, 

From my knowledge...Dave at 'hop to it' at Botany stocks those kits and Wes smith is the agent for them so that supply will continue....

Beerz


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