# My First Time With Hard Apple Cider



## kurtism (3/10/11)

I am trying my first homebrew ever and decided to start with a simple recipe for hard cider, but as I go big or go home, I want to push the alcohol content far above the usual cider ABV. If this works out well using the equipment I have on hand, I will invest in better equipment and specialty products.

This is what I have done so far.

All items were sanitized with potassium metabosulfite but I didn't add any to the cider brew as I will clear and preserve it at the end.
Yesterday (10/1/11) I put the following in my primary fermenter (6.5gal plastic carboy):
--4 gallons of room temperature 100% pure pasteurized apple juice with ascorbic acid as the only additive (store brand) where the OG was 1.041.
--5lbs of dextrose. At this point, the SG was 1.069
--1lb of fresh Gala apple puree as a supplemental yeast nutrient (washed but unpeeled apples boiled and pureed)
--3tsp pectic enzyme
This sat in the carboy for 2 hrs before pitching the yeast.
--1 packet of Lalvin KIV1116 yeast (prepped as per the package instructions). I picked this yeast to push the alcohol content and ensure that all foreign yeasts were killed.

I airlocked with vodka as I didn't want any water leaking from my 3piece airlock into the carboy if there was any temperature decrease. The carboy was stored in the dark at 73 degrees F. By 4 hours after setting up the carboy, I began to monitor for signs of activity and the airlock popped 1 bubble each second or so...so...I think its working.


The Plan:
Add 1.25lbs of sugar every 3rd day for a total of 10lbs of sugar in the primary by 10/12/11. I will rack on on 10/15/11 and I will check the SG. I know this is not entirely accurate because I will have changed it each time I add more sugar, but I want to see how close to 1.000 it gets to know how to proceed. 

After racking to secondary, depending on what the SG was, I will add another 5lbs of sugar and 1gal of the same apple juice to replace volume lost in racking and also add flavors back in that may have been lost.

I will let it sit in secondary for 2 weeks after which I will add potassium sorbate and a clearing agent. I have not decided if I should use bentonite or Liquor Quik Super Kleer KC. After clearing, I will backsweeten with 1/2 gal of the same apple juice and dissolved brown sugar with a whisper of cinnamon. Then its time for bottling where I will likely consume quite a bit and "age" the rest in the fridge. I will force carb if I feel like it as I consume it. One of the bottles will make it to work with me where I'll check the ABV.

How does all of that sound?


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## Tanga (3/10/11)

Sounds like exploding glass.

If you're going to backsweeten that much they will ferment in the bottles and produce bottle bombs. I'd say backsweeten when you serve instead. With juice is best, especially since with that amount of sugar it's going to taste pretty bland.


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## kurtism (3/10/11)

Tanga said:


> Sounds like exploding glass.
> 
> If you're going to backsweeten that much they will ferment in the bottles and produce bottle bombs. I'd say backsweeten when you serve instead. With juice is best, especially since with that amount of sugar it's going to taste pretty bland.




I don't think so. I will clear the yeast with bentonite or Super Kleer and add potassium sorbate which will stop fermentation. There will be no, or at least extremely minimal activity in the bottles....i hope. Am I wrong that clearing and adding potassium sorbate will do the trick.

I can always add more juice to backsweeten and less brown sugar if you think it will be too dry/bland.


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## Tanga (3/10/11)

I haven't used clearing agents, but have heard they're not 100 percent effective. Bentonite is only going to reduce flavours though, not settle the yeast I would have thought. Potassium sorbate may settle the yeast, but chances are there may be some left. Your best bet with doing something like this might be to go above the alcohol tolerance for the yeast. For 1116 that's pretty high, since it's a wine yeast. Nottingham or another neutral beer yeast might be a better option.


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## going down a hill (3/10/11)

kurtism said:


> I am trying my first homebrew ever and decided to start with a simple recipe for hard cider, but as I go big or go home, I want to push the alcohol content far above the usual cider ABV. If this works out well using the equipment I have on hand, I will invest in better equipment and specialty products.



So you are trying something experimental on your first attempt and if it works out you will keep going, if not you won't brew again?

Good luck.


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## Airgead (3/10/11)

Yeah... Like Tanga says. Adding that much sugar in the bottle is likely to make things go foom.

Sorbate will inhibit the yeast and bentonite will help some of it settle out but you are more than likely going to get refermentation in the bottles and a lot of gas production - foom. All it takes is one active yeast cell to get things started.

If you backsweeten you need to use something unfermentable (like lactose), kill all the yeast completely (pasteurisation or sterile filtration), make it strong enough that the alcohol kills the yeast or make sure the yeast never wakes up by keeping it cold.

The disadvantage with many of those methods is that you get no referementation and hence no carbonation. Flat cider.

I'd also question the need to keep adding the sugar. Are you after cider or something you can run your car on? Yeah.. I know.. go big or go home but seriously you may well end up with something fairly nasty pushing it up that high with sugar. Certainly the apple favour will take a back seat to the alcohol. An additional 10lb (5kg or thareabouts) sugar will give you an additional 84 points of gravity according to brewsmith. That's an extra 8%ABV. That's on top of your 64 point OG for a total of 1.148.Plus an additional 5lbs at bottling (another potential 42 points) to give 1.192. That's pushing 26%ABV which is getting just a bit silly. You'll find that your recipe as it is now is plenty enough to get you hammered.

Cheers
Dave


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## kurtism (3/10/11)

@ going down hill

it is not that if this doesn't work i won't brew again. i just won't invest more money in equipment (like glass fermenters, an aquarium heater, a z-carbon filter if necessary, proper siphons/bottling apparatuses and reusable storage bottles). For now, I am using stuff I had on hand and will bottle in empty 2L soda bottles. The only things I bought besides juice, yeast and sugar was a $2.00 racking tube. Everything else I had already. The only thing left to purchase is bentonite ($1.49) or the Super Kleer ($2.50). If this experiment doesn't work, I will likely just try something that is proven. It might appear backwards but technically, until you do something the first time, _everything_ is experimental and just because a recipe works well in someone's hands doesn't mean its 100% reproducible by everyone all the time....so a little gamble on the unknown to start won't dissuade me from trying to brew again.


@ Airgead

i like your suggestion of using a non-fermentable sugar. my local home brew store does have wine stabilizer in stock so that has always been an option if the clearing/sorbate idea didn't work. also there is cold crashing but it would be hard to cold crash this volume.

As I said, I will force carbonate so I am not really too concerned with getting it naturally carbonated in the bottle. 

If your estimates are correct, wouldn't that high % kill the yeast?

Just to be clear...are you saying the extra 5lbs of sugar in the secondary is too much, or just the 1/2 gal of apple juice and brown sugar at the end? or both?

the reason for staging the initial 10lbs (5lbs yesterday and 5 more lbs over the next two weeks) is because everything that i read about high gravity brewing said that 10lbs initially would have such a high SG that it would block the start of fermentation.


thanks alot for all the suggestions and help so far.


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## Airgead (3/10/11)

kurtism said:


> @ Airgead
> 
> i like your suggestion of using a non-fermentable sugar. my local home brew store does have wine stabilizer in stock so that has always been an option if the clearing/sorbate idea didn't work. also there is cold crashing but it would be hard to cold crash this volume.
> 
> ...



Your yeast will top out at 18% or thereabouts. You may be able to squeeze 20 out of it under ideal conditions. 25 or so.. no way. You will end up with syrup.

Do you really need that much alcohol? You already have around 7-8% with your starting mix.

I didn't even see the apple juice and brown sugar at the end. All I saw was the 5lbs of regular sugar in the secondary. IMHO... all way... WAYYYYY too much. Your yeast will have died long before and you will just be adding sweetness. It will be like drinking neat cordial.

I think you need to tone things down a bit.

If you want something a little sweet and still absurdly strong , try shooting for around 19%. That way your yeast dies at 18% and leaves things a little sweet. If it were me, I'd be shooting for a much more drinkable 10-12% (wine strength) and back sweetening in the glass or using an unfermentable sugar. 

Cheers
Dave


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## KudaPucat (5/10/11)

Airgead said:


> Your yeast will top out at 18% or thereabouts. You may be able to squeeze 20 out of it under ideal conditions. 25 or so.. no way. You will end up with syrup.
> 
> Do you really need that much alcohol? You already have around 7-8% with your starting mix.
> 
> ...



+1

18% brews take a long time to age... they taste hot for a few years, unless you get lucky with your recipe.
also, pushing a yeast past 185 is possible, but you stress the yeast when doing it. I've heard of distillers pushing some yeasts to 21% but the resulting mash is full of phenyls, sulphur and unpleasant to drink. (not that distillers care at this point)
If you really want a super strong brew, brew up a straight cidre, then fortify it with some grain vodka, Vyborowa (spelling?) is a good one to use.
Doing this you can also stop your yeast early, at a suitable sweetness.
If you can get unwatered spirit (you can get grape spirit 90% but it's hard to come by) or pure ethanol from a mate who works in a lab, it will mean you add less, which will decrease the flavour you lose due to watering down.


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## kurtism (10/10/11)

@kudapucat
I don't intend on adding any vodka to my cider when done. what's the point....i could have just added vodka to a bottle of apple juice then and "called" it cider. the point is to brew it up as "hard" as possible.

also, the turbo yeast you are talking about (many brands offer 18-23% wash) are not really the best for cider and beers. some people might use them but i stayed away as i am not distilling this cider. 



just an update
at this point, 1 week into the brew, and i have been adding sugar as I indicated. The original sugar was dextrose when I set up the fermeter last week but on the off chance that it adds flavor, I've been feeding the fermenter with dark brown sugar, not dextrose.

i tasted the brew to check for signs of oxidation or contamination as I have been opening the lid to add the sugar. So now I have a reference point....i am not sure if i am describing it right as i this is my first tasting of anything homebrewed but its like a sharp wine. it has some bite to it but still sweet and full of apple flavor. i have 2 store bought brands of hard cider in my fridge. both are weak (5%) and super sweet. they pale in comparison to what i currently have in the bottle. 1 week to go before i start to monitor the airlock for activity. when co2 production has subsided, its time for racking to another carboy to let it settle. no explosions so far...and i am completely satisfied with today's taste test.


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## mje1980 (10/10/11)

When you crack your first bottle, make sure you give a taste update in this thread.


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## KudaPucat (10/10/11)

kurtism said:


> @kudapucat
> I don't intend on adding any vodka to my cider when done. what's the point....i could have just added vodka to a bottle of apple juice then and "called" it cider. the point is to brew it up as "hard" as possible.
> 
> also, the turbo yeast you are talking about (many brands offer 18-23% wash) are not really the best for cider and beers. some people might use them but i stayed away as i am not distilling this cider.
> ...



Yah, I wouldn't either, but it's the only way to go over 18%

The hardest cidre I've brewed has been 14-15% but it really becomes apfelwine or apple champagne at this point. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
It tastes fine, so fine that it's all I'll bother to brew in the future. 10 - 15% makes sure it doesn't taste watery I've found.

Also regarding sugar, I'm pretty sure dark brown sugar will add more flavour (caramels etc) than dextrose would, but either could make a fine brew.
Consider honey as an additive also, it adds an interesting complexity to the flavour.

If you want it to go further, feed it the YAN it needs, aerate until the first break and keep the lees stirred regularly until the yeast is dead or the sugar is gone.
Otherwise, just do what I do and let it alone until it finishes of its own accord.

if you want this to be drinkable within 2 years, go for the sweeter end of what your palate likes, sweetness can mask a lot of the issues with brewing rocketfuel cidre.


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## technoicon (10/10/11)

subscribed.


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## Greg.L (10/10/11)

kurtism said:


> just an update
> at this point, 1 week into the brew, and i have been adding sugar as I indicated. The original sugar was dextrose when I set up the fermeter last week but on the off chance that it adds flavor, I've been feeding the fermenter with dark brown sugar, not dextrose.



Just a word of warning for those following this thread, I presume that kurtism is in the usa. The stuff they call brown sugar is what we call raw sugar. If you are following American cider recipes you should sub raw sugar for brown sugar. If you use our caramelised brown sugar in a recipe, specially in the quantities they use, you will get something very strange. I don't know if they even have our sort of brown sugar. If you don't believe me check it out in wikipedia.


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## KudaPucat (10/10/11)

Greg.L said:


> Just a word of warning for those following this thread, I presume that kurtism is in the usa. The stuff they call brown sugar is what we call raw sugar. If you are following American cider recipes you should sub raw sugar for brown sugar. If you use our caramelised brown sugar in a recipe, specially in the quantities they use, you will get something very strange. I don't know if they even have our sort of brown sugar. If you don't believe me check it out in wikipedia.


Cheers Greg, I was a tad worried, especially when he thought it would have less flavour than dex! 




Awesome Fury said:


> subscribed.


What?


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## kurtism (11/10/11)

yes, i am the in US....New York City in fact.

dextrose was added initially as, since it is a monosaccharide, it would require not much effort to be broken down by the yeast. everyone i talked to recommended it over sucrose (what we call raw sugar or table sugar) because that is a disaccharide (glucose and fructose). i decided to switch to dark brown sugar (which is sucrose plus about 7% molasses) to benefit from the darker flavor. that said, the guy at my LHBS told me that there was a chance that the KIV1116 would just strip that flavor out and it wouldn't matter if it was dextrose of dark brown sugar. Only time will tell. I have a 500ml sample of the brew from this weekend's taste test for comparison resting in the fridge.

now...here is my question of the day.

I just realized that some of the dark brown sugar is sitting at the bottom of the fermenter. it is clearly the sugar because of the huge color difference....it can't be yeast sediment or apple sediment. It has not dissolved. I am not sure if that means that the liquid is totally saturated or not, but what can I do. I don't really want to shake the fermenter because that would be bad, right? Should I just let it sit there in hopes that it dissolves?

-kurt


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## kdaust (11/10/11)

Yeast will eat it.

Hey - Are you the kurt from Glee? I read he moved to nyc.


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## KudaPucat (12/10/11)

Having re-read this thread... there was some talk of backsweetening.

If you're going to chemically stabilise (yes this works, I've done it)

1. Cold crash it and wait for it to clear. (4-8 days)
2. Add finings if it's not clear enough for you.
3. chill a clean demi.
4. prepare a small solution of k-sorbate AND k-meta (ie dissolve it in as little water as possible).
5. add solution to new demi
6. rack cold crashed cidre over the k-meta and k-sorbate.
7. retain in fridge for 3-4 days 
8. bottle as you see fit, storing bottles in a 'safe' place (ie wont kill anybody if they spontaneously explode)

Chemically stabilising if done like this is 95% effective against bottle bombs. Open a bottle every month to make sure a slow ferment is not under way (if they last this long)
If you only sorbate, or only use meta, or use neither and trust the finings, you're between 40% and 95% certain of bottle bombs.
Cold filtering with a filter suitable for removing yeast will work too.
Please ensure you observe sanitisation of your bottles more than usual, as with a lot of sugar, anything may grow.

Good luck.


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## kurtism (14/10/11)

i appreciate all the advice so far....but i really think everyone is overreacting about bottle bombs.

1) there is enough sugar to reach 24% alcohol in the fermenter so it should overwhelm the yeast. if it ferments to the 18% tolerance of the yeast, the yeast won't survive.
2) After racked to the secondary and allowed to sit for 2 weeks, I will degas it then
3) i am going to clear with the Super Kleer finings which will help alot.
4) following clearing, I am filtering through a 0.45um filter and activated carbon to the bottling carboy
5) i will back sweeten (IF NECESSARY....as i think there will be residual unfermented sugars in it so I won't actually have to do this) and add potassium sorbate and metabisulfite to the bottling carboy then bottle.

i know i am a newbie, but its not going to be a problem. between the target %, the filtering and the additives, i should end up with a super clear, yeast free product.

i'm fortunate enough to be able to check the exact % at the end so when I've bottled, my lab mates and I will enjoy some while I run it through the spec.


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## Airgead (14/10/11)

kurtism said:


> i appreciate all the advice so far....but i really think everyone is overreacting about bottle bombs.
> 
> 1) there is enough sugar to reach 24% alcohol in the fermenter so it should overwhelm the yeast. if it ferments to the 18% tolerance of the yeast, the yeast won't survive.
> 2) After racked to the secondary and allowed to sit for 2 weeks, I will degas it then
> ...



With that much sugar, yes, you are unlikely to get bottle bombs. Mind you, all it takes is one wild yeast cell with a higher tolerance...

What you are very likely to end up with though is so much residual sugar that it will end up being like drinking neat cordial (with 18% alcohol). You are likely to end up at a FG of around 1.050 or thereabouts. That's the starting gravity for many beers. If that's your thing then by all means go ahead but I'd be cutting down on the sugar additions to lower your FG and have something a little less syrupy. At the very least you will need to add some acid to balance things out a little. It will also most likely need considerable aging before it tastes any good. 18% brews taste pretty bad for quite a while until they balance out.

Cheers
Dave


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## kurtism (18/10/11)

update as of 10/17/11

I waited 2 extra days to rack to secondary because as of 10/15, the airlock was still quite active.

took a SG reading today and it was 1.004.

I took a taste test and compared it to the sample from last week. The best words are sharper and drier. The sweetness it has last week is gone. it isn't harsh or anything...just "sharp." i really don't know if that is the best way to describe it. the best reference i have for it is the difference between drinking a Jack and coke (50/50 mix) or just Jack on the rocks. That isn't to say that I think the alcohol is 2x more concentrated...but that burn you get when you drink Jack on the rocks that you don't get when you mix with soda is what I am trying to describe. I rather enjoyed it but know that if there is any yeast that is still around, I'd want it to do its thing a bit more. So, as planned, I added 1 gallon of the same juice BUT instead of the 5 lbs of dextrose, I added 2.5lbs of the same dark brown sugar. I originally said 5lbs, but went lower with the option to add it later if it needs it for sweetness.

Once dissolved, I checked the SG and it was 1.035 after adding the gallon of juice and 2.5lbs of sugar.

As per my plan, I will clear, bottle and filter. I will take a gravity reading before clearing to see if any of the newer sugar was eaten or not.

Then after bottling, I will do a complete taste test (with requisite rinsing and palate cleansing with all 3 samples) 

I will also take last week's, today's sample and a completed bottle to work to check the final % and report back. In theory, it should already be over the 18% yeast tolerance, so the extra sugar/juice i added today will only sweeten it up, which is fine by me. I have the spec at my disposal in my lab, but I am resisting the urge to test both current samples until I have the final product in hand.


question of the day....
there is still a little headspace in the secondary carboy...should I top it up to the rubber bung with more apple juice or just leave it. I think I might be able to add about another quart to it to fill the headspace.


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## Greg.L (18/10/11)

Since you have added more fermentables, it will keep fermenting (probably) so wait till it is close to finished, then top off with water. You will need to age it for a fair while, if you have a big headspace it will probably oxidise.


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## kurtism (30/10/11)

yield: 24 liters
final abv: 18.6%
taste: freaking wonderful!


I followed my plan with timing but only backsweetened with 1lb of dark brown sugar. Its bottled and being consumed. At the tasting last night, all 9 people absolutely raved about it and think its a sweet, mellow and refreshing drink. everyone pretty much doubted the ABV until about 3 drinks in and an hour later when they were all quite "happy"

I am fully satisfied with the results and recommend this recipe to anyone wanting a high octane drink

fyi...bottles were purposefully underfilled to allow room for co2 when i force carb.


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