# first sparkling cider - about to bottle, but lots of alcohol?



## wareemba (26/11/14)

our scenario:

5 litre glass demijohn
2 litre of nudie apple juice
500 mL Preshafruit Pink Lady cold pressed juice
~2.2L water
150 gram of dextrose
2.5 gram of EC-8111 yeast (kicked off at 25'C)

bubbled like a champion for a week then stopped.

SG is around 1000 (no starting measurement) - will check again tonight...

tastes very tart (I think this is good), but very alcoholic!

questions:
1. can I add water before bottling to make it less alcoholic?
2. will 10g/L of dextrose be OK for bulk priming?
3. could I start another batch just by adding more juice and water to the demijohn and sediment?

thanks!


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## Airgead (26/11/14)

It may taste alcoholic but with that much water its not likely to be much above 4%. it may taste a little like a rough, cheap wine right now but it will mellow over a few weeks.

Usually cider is made with just juice. No water added. Just juice alone is usually up in the 5-8% range. By cutting is 50/50 with water you are down in the 2.5-4% range.

But in response to your specific questions...

1 - yes... but its not going to need it.. seriously.
2 - Yep.
3 - Sure can. but lose the water.


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## wareemba (26/11/14)

OK, great!

thanks!

I thought because I added the dextrose it would be more alcoholic?

next batch will be no water and no sugar methinks!

and do you mean it will mellow once bottled? I'm looking to share it around at Christmas...


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## Airgead (26/11/14)

Ahh yes.. I missed the dex... that will push it up a bit. Lets see... probably by around 1-2% if my maths is right. So add that to the maybe 3-4% from the juice and you could be up to 4-5% or so.

It will mellow somewhat. If you add more water to tone it down you will lose whatever flavour you had to start with. The more water the less flavour. I'd leave it alone, let it mellow and drink it in small glasses if you are worried about the alcohol.

Go with just juice.. and no sugar for next time. There's a guide to beginner cider making pinned in this forum - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72201-how-to-get-started-in-cider-the-definitiveish-guide-to-beginner39/

Cheers
Dave


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## wareemba (26/11/14)

Airgead said:


> Ahh yes.. I missed the dex... that will push it up a bit. Lets see... probably by around 3-4% if my maths is right. So add that to the maybe 3-4% from the juice and you could be up to 6-8% or so.
> 
> You have a bit of a dilemma. It will mellow somewhat but will be strong. If you add more water to tone it down you will lose whatever flavour you had to start with. The more water the less flavour. I'd leave it alone, let it mellow and drink it in small glasses.
> 
> ...


OK thanks again!

yes, I discovered this site and read that thread AFTER I had visited the home brew shop and threw it all together... (he was unsure of a non-packaged recipe, but guessed it was similar to beer!)

I will bottle as it is, and dilute down when pouring (if necessary.)

(my wife loves "Old Mout Scrumpy" - but I find it a bit too strong - as will our holiday guests!!)

will update this thread once done


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## Mutaneer (26/11/14)

With that little apple juice actually in it, there will be very little apple flavour at all, hence why it tastes very alcoholic,

Find an apple grower in your region and source fresh, unpasteurised juice.
My local grower charges $15 for 20 litres

Just add yeast and seal it up.
you'll end up with 7%+ alcohol and a good, traditional cider


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## wareemba (26/11/14)

yeah, might do a 20L batch next run, so that would be a great way to do it!


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## Deep End (26/11/14)

We must catch up one day Rob and taste each other's ware's.


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## Airgead (26/11/14)

wareemba said:


> OK thanks again!
> 
> yes, I discovered this site and read that thread AFTER I had visited the home brew shop and threw it all together... (he was unsure of a non-packaged recipe, but guessed it was similar to beer!)
> 
> ...


I updated my maths after you posted your reply.. The dex will only add about 1-2%. 

Alc % will be fine without dilution. Its still probably not going to have much apple flavour though due to the water.

You could take the plunge and use the whole lot as a starter for a 20l batch using all juice...

Cheers
Dave


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## wareemba (26/11/14)

ah, yes, OK, so will be fine - just bland!

thanks again, ill just bottle this batch and chalk it up to experience - as the HBS guy said - you should just keep experimenting to work it out!

i'll put a new 5L lot with whole juice down tomorrow 

then research larger lots of juice from afar... are there any places out Dural way that might sell it?


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## Airgead (26/11/14)

Dural... not that I know of. I go out to Bilpin for my apples but I juice them myself at home.I make one big batch of cider each year in apple season and it lasts till next season.


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## wareemba (28/11/14)

bottled this last night, but used a siphon hose and this caused a lot of aeration... will this be bad?


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## Airgead (28/11/14)

Aeration is bad. You can bottle with a siphon without aeration if you are careful.

if you are bottle carbing it won't be so bad as the active yeast will mop up some of the o2. But in general it means it won;t keep as ling... so drink quickly. and don't age.


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## wareemba (28/11/14)

hmm, yes, it was all n00b technique, a hose that just wanted to stay curly and I think an air-leak at the tap/hose junction??

I put 8.8g/L of dexie in there to prime, so should still carb up 

I'm gonna come up with a much better siphon technique and practice it for next one... it is an easy concept, but practice is everything!

thanks for your advice Dave


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## Mutaneer (28/11/14)

Mate, just buy the 25L plastic fermenters.
get 2 of them, one to brew in.
then you can rack it off to clear for a few days
and then transfer again after clearing to bottle from with a "Little bottler" valve

With a length of hose and some car you can transfer without introducing much oxygen.
I've never had flavour or discolouration issues from this process of multiple transfers

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1488786_624848964274772_581861813165729192_n.jpg?oh=de39f648fd6aca749cecf65d6d2d2e17&oe=54D7ED75&__gda__=1427093401_431753e8f40bc1becf6ea8fae8e5f43a


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## wareemba (28/11/14)

sorry, I didn't really fully explain,

I decanted from the 5L demijohn to my other 25L fermenter with the bulk prime in it, then put the siphon hose in the 25L fermenter tap and filled the bottles on the ground in a crate...

pretty sure there was air getting in between the tap and the hose? or maybe the hose was never full, so that's where the air came from?

either way, there was froth in most of the tops of most 375mL bottles I filled (12).

I put the next batch straight on, so will be more careful with it... this lot is experiment 1.


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## wareemba (28/11/14)

great picture  thanks Mutaneer


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## wareemba (1/12/14)

I bottled last Thursday and cracked one Sunday, no bubbles in it at all but a slight pfft when removing the lid?

room temp is 20'C - how long should carbonation take?

there was maybe 15mm mm of air in the neck of the 375mL bottle I opened.


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## scon (1/12/14)

Two weeks at least for full carbonation I find.


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## mxd (1/12/14)

last thursay as in 3 days ?
If so wait 2 wweks


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## wareemba (1/12/14)

Yeah, only three days... 

So thanks guys! I'll just give it the time it needs, i'm glad it doesn't taste like crap though ☺


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## fletcher (1/12/14)

wareemba said:


> ah, yes, OK, so will be fine - just bland!
> 
> thanks again, ill just bottle this batch and chalk it up to experience - as the HBS guy said - you should just keep experimenting to work it out!
> 
> ...


i've not bought from them but i know there is an orchard is canoelands - http://www.canoelandsorchard.com/

derp. my bad, they don't produce apples. only nectarines, plums and peaches.


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## Bribie G (1/12/14)

Man did I get wasted on Old Mout when I was in Wellington. :unsure:

Just juice is the way to go, plus yeast nutrient and a decent cider or dry white wine yeast. Supermarket stuff like Aldi plain apple juice will give you around 5.5% and for a sweeter drink just put a splash of Bickfords Cloudy Apple cordial into the glass.


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## wareemba (11/12/14)

scon said:


> Two weeks at least for full carbonation I find.


it is now 2 weeks, and cracked another.

slight pfft, then a tiny bit of foaming on the pour, then nothing in the glass except right at the bottom where there were very very small bubbles... no bubbles on the tongue.

could I shake them up? will that do anything?

any ideas?

I just bottled a second batch and followed my methods for the first batch almost identically... should I be worried that I am doing something wrong?

(it still tastes nice, but lacks flavor (cause I put water in it!) and bubbles)


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## Mutaneer (11/12/14)

take the bottles and roll them over, end on end, gently, a few times to stir up the yeast
how warm is it where they're kept? you want it to be around 15-20 degrees.

Also, I like to give it 6 weeks in the bottle.
time is the key to a fine mousse of bubbles and flavour development.

Commercial "craft" ciders are generally aged after being brewed before they are blended, bottled and force carbed.
Some are bottle conditioned on top of the first aging.

ONce you wait out your first couple of batches you'll get a stockpile that you can't drink fast enough and your time in the bottle will extend out to 3+ months

Patience grasshopper


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## wareemba (11/12/14)

sheesh!

first it is two weeks, now it is six!?! 

guess I just better keep putting down new batches and bottling them up!!

they sit at 17'C +/-1'C in my garage cellar (built into sandstone) - i'll give them a gentle roll tonight...

when you say some commercial cider is aged before blending - is that in the fermenter?

thanks Rob


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## Mutaneer (11/12/14)

They'll finish fermenting, then rack the cider into a separate vessel and store it.
They may do multiple rackings depending on the processes they use.
Some will blend before aging, others may blend right before bottling.

Two weeks is enough time usually to make bubbles, they're not good bubbles and the cider hasn't had time to mellow out
Carbonating cider in bottles is really a true secondary fermentation.
you're again encouraging the yeast to go to work, and as it does it makes it's CO2, but again throws esters, eats/ produces acids, the sugar, etc, etc
given the low numbers of yeast left when you bottle and the delicate flavour of the cider compared with doing beers, it's a slower process.

Beer is easy, and doesn't develop that much after bottling in most cases, sparkling cider is different, much more like a good champagne
as long in the bottle as possible.


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## wareemba (16/12/14)

thanks for your advice Rob, since the end-to-end rolling - this batch has a lovely fine creamy bubble to it, with head forming evident but not persistent.

looks like my environment and methods need 3 weeks for nice carbonation...

my 3rd batch put down last night is 4L of Nudie apple + 750mL of Preshafruit raspberry & apple... so will be interesting to see how it ferments...


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