# Joe White Pilsner Vs Weyermann Pilsner



## dabre4

I know there have been similar discussions to this in the past, and that most of the time the differences between malt brands are minimal. I'm normally happy using Joe White base malts as the results always turn out great, however I'm brewing a Pilsner this weekend and was wondering if there is much difference in the final results between using Joe White or Weyermann Pilsner malt? Obviously there will be a difference, I guess my question is are they obvious or very subtle?

Thanks.


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## Duff

For mine, there is very real difference in aroma and taste which is apparent in beers brewed with Weyermann compared to JW both in a home brew and commercial sense. Both malts are good but the Weyermann is not as heavy on the palate which assists in providing the crispness tasted in a good quality pilsner.

Buy a few kg's and try for yourself.


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## mje1980

JW export pils IMHO is as good as the wey pils malt. Add the price factor in and its a no brainer. The "standard" JW pils im not a huge fan of ( and im not saying its bad at all ), but the export is excellent. I won't be buying the wey stuff again. Just gunna have try the difference yourself. I once did 100% JW pils, then next batch did 100% Wey german pils. Definately a difference. Havent done it with JW export pils and wey, but am so happy with the export im not gunna bother. 


BTW just having "imported" malt won't make your beers turn out better, you stil have to get all the other factors right, mash, ferment, conditioning to name a few. My .02c


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## Ross

Price shouldn't be much of a factor these days. Weyermann Pilsner shouldn't be more than approx $15 a sack more or 0.50c a kilo in small lots against Aussie Malts

Both grains are quite different IMO (though i haven't had JW in a while), best to try both & see which you prefer, they both have their place.

mje1980, Interesting that you don't like JW Pils but like their Export Pils :blink: I wasn't aware that they did 2 different Pilsners? Export is the only one available through their distributor.

Cheers Ross


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## mje1980

I didn't think there was either ross, but its been a long time since i used JW pils, and last year i got half a sack of JW export to do some lagers ( rarely do lagers ). If its the same its very different to what i remember, though i havent used it for at least a few years, and my brewing has also improved since then. I still think its as good as the wey stuff.


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## Crusty

Duff said:


> For mine, there is very real difference in aroma and taste which is apparent in beers brewed with Weyermann compared to JW both in a home brew and commercial sense. Both malts are good but the Weyermann is not as heavy on the palate which assists in providing the crispness tasted in a good quality pilsner.
> 
> Buy a few kg's and try for yourself.




I agree with Duff.
Have used both & liked both but found the weyermann to be the first choice for me these days. Getting fantastic results with the Weyermann.

Crusty


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## mahonya1

Just bought ingredients to make my first Pilsner. Will probably start it next week. I went for Weyermanns Pilsner malt, but wasn't sure whether to go for the Floor malted or "normal" Pilsner malt. What is the difference and has anyone used the floor malted pilsner malt?


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## Fourstar

As duff has pointed out the biggest difference between them is the flavour. JW lends more of a malty-sweet pilsner character and Weyermann has more of the doughy bready pilsner qualities. Either way, both great malts and use what is acceptable to your palate and hip pocket! :icon_cheers:


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## MHB

Weyermann currently have 4 Pilsner malts available in Australia.

Pilsner I think of it as more of a north German style, lighter, clean crisp pilsner and lager beers
Bohemian Pilsner South German fuller bodied rounder finishing, a bit chewier.
Premium Pilsner Czech grown and malted in Germany, pretty obvious what you would choose it for
Floor Malted Pilsner the floor malting process tends to cause melanin development so more colour and typical flavours associated with older malt and beer styles, is a ripper as the base for an Alt or Schwartz beer maybe a Dortmund.

I don't stock JW but have used heaps over the years I don't believe there is a really profound difference between the offerings from the Australian maltsters, I just prefer the Malt Europe Pilsner, it's made to Heineken speck and they are as fussy as any brewer on the planet so the malt is consistently very good.
The secret is to choose the malt to make the beer you want to drink. I don't think any of the malts mentioned are anything other than excellent just a matter of the most appropriate to the style you're looking for.

MHB


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## Bizier

While I have limited experience, I have gone through a few sacks of JW pils and the Wey Bo Pils. I find a particular characteristic of the JW to stick out, and I can taste it in craft beers. In my relatively inexperienced opinion, the JW seems to leave beers on the flabby side regardless of FG, whereas I find the overall profile of the Weyermann pleasing, again regardless of FG.

I can only put this down to the difference in growing, and perhaps malting. The German kernels seem to be much skinnier than Aussie ones, indicating either a dramatically different breed of barley, or the difference in growing conditions, or both. Consider the difference in AUS and GER grown hops that are supposed to be the same strain. I know it is not directly analogous, but I would be more comfortable if JW adopted the more generic term 'lager malt' as per BB.


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## Tony

I will agree with most above and say that the JW malt does a good job but leaves the beer with a touch of something i dont want in a lager...... a kind of cheweyness or something..... its been a little while since i have used it as a result.

I have used the IMC Pils as well and its a better malt..... id put it up close to the standard Wey Pils!

Ive not tried the BB Pils as yet.

I do however use Weyermann malts almost exclusivly these days. I use TF floor malted offerings for my ales.

The Pilsner malt makes a nice crisp beer, clean with a sweet bready hint that just screams German Pilsner
THe Premium Pilsner is a lighter coloured malt with similar flavour characteristics to the Pilsner malt.... but lighter. ITs not my favorite malt but very nice stuff.
The Boh Pils had a deeper maltiness...... greater depth of flavour. It works really well in a Classic American Pilsner with lots of corn to bolster colour and flavour in the beer. It is edging close on ale malt teritory in depth of flavour but with the Pilsner malt character...... that bready sweetness.
I have a bag of Floor malted Boh Pils to try and cant wait to get into it.

i honestly think there is a big difference in the flavours you get from different pilsner malts. The price of the german malts has come down and i honestly think they are a far superiour product. I see two reputable retailers above who dont use or stock the JW malts any more...... i think that says something as they are both brewers and must be following the wants of themselvs and their customers.


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## neonmeate

i've been really into the weyermann bohemian floor malted stuff lately. Beautiful malt. not at all like the german pils malt, rounder and breadier, but still light. delicious. my czech saaz SMASH with it is becoming a house brew (whether i use 3724 or 3655 or 34/70).

i haven't brewed with anything other than weyermann for about 6 years, which is not to say you can't make good beers with JW malts, but I think for beers with a 100% pils malt grist you want the good stuff.

I know it doesn't bother a lot of people but I can certainly taste whether it is Aussie malt in local microbrew pilseners (ales, not so much) - they're usually lacking in the finish when you drink them - a simpler and shallower flavour. have a JS pilsener side by side with a (fresh) urquell sometime and see what you notice maltwise.


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## OneEye

I'm brewing tomorrow using JW Pilsner for the first time. Should I use a 90min boil for DMS purposes?


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## fletcher

it's just easier to. you don't have to, but it's 30 minutes extra and you won't have to worry about it at all


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## Ross

Nothing to worry about either way. 60 min boil is fine.


cheers Ross


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## Bribie G

60 mins, I'm using JW Pilsner at the moment. I did two lagers using it, an Aussie Premium and an Classic American Pilsner. The Aussie scored third in the NSW in the lagers the other week and the CAP came in 5th in the PIlsners, so well pleased. In the case of the lager both judges commented on the fine Pils malt aroma, so JW must be doing something right. 

I always mash for 90 mins, or even 2 hours with a nice long initial rest at 62 .. just something that Thirsty Boy mentioned ages ago re what the commercials do with Aussie malts when doing lagers, seems to work for me.


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## Hippy

Do you not bother with a protein rest then Bribie?


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## Bribie G

No need with modern malts - I just use a Hochkurz mash with lagers, as do most German breweries nowadays. However saying that if I was using the trad. Weyermann floor malted Czech Pilsner I'd probably give it one.


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## Hawko777

You tend to get a better efficiency out of the Wyermann Malts than Joe Whites.
IMO, Wyermann have a better grain/malting process which see's a high level of Starches able to be converted to sugars.
If you like JW, and that's fine, experiment with it to find out just how much extra you will have to add to arrive at your goal figures.


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## Batz

Joe White Maltings, Australian owned and produced, Australians employed.

Weyermann Maltings Germany, not so many Australians employed.

I'll go Joe White thanks.


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## rude

Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi


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## Byran

Ive used both and seemed to think that the JW pilsner wasnt the flavour I was looking for in a pilsner. It has a different flavour and aroma to the Weyermann. The JW ale is fantastic however. Of course im going off my palate.


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## Quokka42

I am well aware this is an old thread - just thought it better to use it rather than start a new one. 

I am planning to do a lager soon, as I gave up on it years ago, but now have a fridge and freezer to suit and have gotten bloody good at allgrain ales.

I am planning on a Pilsner as it is a very simple recipe, and yes I will be using Joe White, as it is what I have (it is a great neutral base malt for other beers, and I am a huge fan of JW Trad Ale malt.)

I also BIAB - no way I can afford this fancy 3V or GF stuff, so my question is this:

I read this very interesting article https://byo.com/mead/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing and would like some advice from those with experience brewing Pilsners if:

a) Should I start the mash at the lower water/grain ratio, then raise it with hot water additions, or heat it until the saccharification step, then add hot water for the mash-out?

b) Is it really necessary at all to step mash a Pilsner these days?

c) Is Lactic acid to the equivalent of 5% acidulated malt OK for this style?


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## Jack of all biers

a) doesn't matter between those two choices (heating by element or hot water additions). Decoction might make a difference if you boil the decoct for long enough to get some caramelisation happening (I've done both decoct and infusion steps and have noticed a slight difference, but it is slight).

b) protein rest (depends on the malt of course) - if the malt is well modified, then no. The Amylase rests are different however. That is a question of taste and what flavour profile you want out of your Pils. The steps can be used to change the flavour/mouthfeel or if you want a fairly balanced profile then go for a single infusion of 65C. Nothing wrong with a single infusion for a Pils.

c) use the least amount of acidulated malt as you need to get to the pH mash profile you want. I know this doesn't answer your question and to put it shortly, 5% SHOULD be the max and if you NEED that much, maybe look at using lower alkalinity water to begin with. Do you really NEED 5% or are you just asking the question?


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## contrarian

You can easily start out with a single infusion mash and see how it goes. While decoctions are the traditional way of making pilsners you can get a similar result by adding some melanoiden to your grist. 

Start simple and then work from there.


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## Danscraftbeer

I know Weyermann Pale Ale Malt is the clearest pre boil Malt I have ever experienced. 
I'd be confident to use it up to 100% for flavour too.


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## Quokka42

I have had great success adjusting pH in my ales below 5.4 - the actual ale before I pitch the yeast tends to be crystal clear and any chill haze disappears within about a week. My calculations with Brewer's Friend which up to this point have been quite accurate, suggest I need close to the equivalent of 5% just to get to 5.4, and I have heard that Pilsners are prone to haze.

Apart from that, thanks a heap for all the great advice - single infusion is so much easier!

As I said, I am starting really simple, but if any JW haters are watching be warned I will be sharing a few bottles with Czech beer lovers without any warnings. I accept that I will probably be trying a more "authentic" Pilsner malt in the future, but I don't understand why some are so anti-JW. I wouldn't want to go work for them, as Tassie is just too bloody cold for me, but it is still very much a part of Australia - the best bloody Country on Earth!


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## Danscraftbeer

Its Racism. It blows all directions like the wind.

Like, Aussie made has no cultural or religious dominance. 

Or then again it could be that JW malt just doesn't taste that good and needs improvement in some ways.


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## Quokka42

But the JW ale malts could only be criticized for a lack of strength of flavour. The Trad Ale is a great base for British styles, the Pilsner for American pales - Amber and roasted barley beyond compare. I know brew shops and hipsters don't like them because they are cheap, and some people just don't like Australia...​
I have listed where I live, and I think we are a perfect picture of Australian Culture. OK, it's annoying that Muslims don't drink - but they love barbecue so much and are tolerant enough that Australia Day at Tirhatuan park is like the lamb ad with Waleed Aly, but more cricket and soccer.

Oh, and a bunch of bikies show up to complete the picture.


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## Danscraftbeer

True that!.
Honestly if there is going to be any balance and harmony in this modern day.
The balance is for us drinkers to drink less but the Muslims need to drink some more too. Its only fair to spread the good feelings etc.


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## klangers

Joe White cops flak because they have demonstrated shit quality control compared to other maltsters.

They were caught out a couple years ago falsifying their malt QA check results.


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## Brewno Marz

Sounds quite damning. Do you have any more information? 

I do recall the new owner's of JWM, Cargill's, sued Viterra for damages over claims made during the sale process about plant capacity and capabilty to meet volumes at the contracted specs.


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## contrarian

Joe white is decent brewing malt and at least when you get it is comparatively fresh. European malts would be 3-4 months minimum and probably a lot more from packaging to delivery in Australia. 

I currently prefer the gladfields malts over anything else due to their freshness and flavour but I will happily use JW if that's what I have on hand.


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## Quokka42

Gladfields have some great stuff - some of their specialty malts have no substitute, but my primary reason for home brewing is an almost complete lack of money. I have brewed many beers far superior to anything I could buy using JW malts, but I suspected the usual suspects would show up - that's why I didn't want to start a fresh thread.

But to AHB's credit I've actually gotten more good advice than wank, and my questions answered, so thank you all.

Now I want to get it started sooner rather than later, but my Irish Red turned out so well it won't last so I have to do another of that today, and I have to make a starter if I'm going to do a lager anyway.


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## manticle

Quokka42 said:


> I have had great success adjusting pH in my ales below 5.4 - the actual ale before I pitch the yeast tends to be crystal clear and any chill haze disappears within about a week. My calculations with Brewer's Friend which up to this point have been quite accurate, suggest I need close to the equivalent of 5% just to get to 5.4, and I have heard that Pilsners are prone to haze.
> 
> Apart from that, thanks a heap for all the great advice - single infusion is so much easier!
> 
> As I said, I am starting really simple, but if any JW haters are watching be warned I will be sharing a few bottles with Czech beer lovers without any warnings. I accept that I will probably be trying a more "authentic" Pilsner malt in the future, but I don't understand why some are so anti-JW. I wouldn't want to go work for them, as Tassie is just too bloody cold for me, but it is still very much a part of Australia - the best bloody Country on Earth!


Some people just prefer the character of other malts. Neither anti AU nor anti JW.

When I first started AG, I made some good beers using JW. Many of the same recipes, made again with simpsons or weyermann or dingemans, aussie schooner or gladfields, etc were improvements. I think the pils and ale are totally fine but with the munich and vienna, I get a note I'm not fond of when chewing the raw grain - a kind of plastic note. My palate more than the malt. Good luck with your pils - there's much more to making a good one than choice of maltster.


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## TheWiggman

I've brewed lagers with both JW pils and Weyermann pils and I've found that - like everything - it's horses for courses. If your'e brewing an Aussie lager with pride and sugarz you won't get the authentic character (or lack thereof) of a typical pub beer if you use Weyermann. Conversely, using JW for a German pils will likely fall short of the real deal. You may even prefer the German malt in a lager with PoR but it won't be 'to style'. Try both with the same beer and see for yourself what the difference will be.
Unlike others I've not noted any efficiency or repeatability issues using JW malts.

Some details about the Cargill vs. Joe White here


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## labels

You can brew great pils and lagers with JW export pils.

The only issues I have had are very recent and that is the malt appears ungraded. Lots of variation in seed size caused me a big headache when milling, the big grains crushed well, the smaller ones just slipped on through. I had to adjust the mill and run it back through again ending up with a much finer crush than I wanted with subsequant problems in lautering.

Yes, it will result in a different beer to Euro malts but that doesn't make it bad, I think a lot of Asian beers - which are very pilsner-like are made with Aussie malt and JW is the biggest!


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## Adr_0

Yeah I read somewhere that Aussie barley is used for something like 30% of malted barley around the world?


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## barls

labels said:


> You can brew great pils and lagers with JW export pils.
> 
> The only issues I have had are very recent and that is the malt appears ungraded. Lots of variation in seed size caused me a big headache when milling, the big grains crushed well, the smaller ones just slipped on through. I had to adjust the mill and run it back through again ending up with a much finer crush than I wanted with subsequant problems in lautering.
> 
> Yes, it will result in a different beer to Euro malts but that doesn't make it bad, I think a lot of Asian beers - which are very pilsner-like are made with Aussie malt and JW is the biggest!


this is the reason i stopped using it.
there is only one other malt i will never use again and that global as its the only one i got a stuck sparge with.
and i mean like concrete nothing in nothing out.


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## Quokka42

I did notice a few grains slipping through, but in my case not enough to worry about or cause a measurable difference in the beer (I BIAB and have one of those cheap rotary mills.) 

I never call my beers clones, I prefer "in the style of." I too taste my grains, as brewing is a type of cooking and I like to blend the flavours and aromas of the ingredients I have to produce the flavour I want. I will probably never win a competition, because I think my perfected beers are far better than the hipster shite you get in bars, at a small fraction of the price, but probably wouldn't be considered correct for the style...

My first Pilsner for example, won't be correct for the style, as I will balance the flavour of the JW malt probably with a little carapils and maybe a touch of Gladfields toffee (only a mere hint, mind you, and I will taste the malts I have on hand again before deciding on what to actually use.)


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## good4whatAlesU

Aussies are very good at growing grain. VERY good.

It's a wonder there aren't more malting plants around with the explosion in independent breweries looking for unique ingredients.

Edit. There's an old saying "There is more money to be made in the gold rush selling spades than there is digging for gold".


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Adr_0 said:


> Yeah I read somewhere that Aussie barley is used for something like 30% of malted barley around the world?


Yes I've seen that too but it makes no sense. World barley production is about 100 MT PA. Australian barley production is about 8 MT PA. Around 30% of the crop reaches malting grade.

reference: https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/Resources%5CCraftBrewing%5CPDFs%5CAgricultural_Reports_and_Papers/BSG_CROPREPORT_PRESENTATION_2014.pdf

On the other hand Australia exports an unusually large percentage of its malt production, mostly due to our proximity to a bunch of countries with hot wet climates which are inimical to barley production.


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## manticle

Growing barley and malting it are separate things.

Not saying AU can't malt: just being a pedant because I'm on a forum and it's allowed.


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## good4whatAlesU

Maybe we are relying on the wrong people to do the malting and select the grain.


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## Brewman_

I don't stock JW, well there are a couple of exceptions. The Porter Malt is unique and great.
But lets say compare the other Aussie Malt, Barrett Burston to Wyermann,

First of all these are all good quality Malts.
The Weyermann Pilsner range at the moment goes like this

Pilsner
Premium Pilsner
Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner
Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner Dark

There is a big difference between the Oz Malts and the Weyermann. But it depends on the beer. If your making a delicate Pilsner, the Malts are key. If your making something bolder, then the base malt is less of a consideration. Nonetheless the Weyermann in my opinion is far better.

Then weigh up the extra cost, the Weyermann is more expensive. We all have a budget, and that is sometimes the main consideration. A good brewer will turn out a good beer with any of these malts.

I think in this comparison you get what you pay for.

Personally I have beers that I make that use BB Pils and others that use Wey Premium Pils. The Wey Premium Pils is my personal favourite. It is biggest selling malt by the bag that I sell behind BB Ale being the most popular.

The craft breweries are mostly on the same page. I see truck loads of Wey Premium Pils by the pallet going to the craft breweries.


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## Brewno Marz

Now this really annoys me. Someone with a commercial position passing an opinion based on what they profit from.


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## Brewman_

Brewno Marz said:


> Now this really annoys me. Someone with a commercial position passing an opinion based on what they profit from.


Sorry man.

I think I have given a balanced perspective. I am also in a position to touch and feel the malts everyday, so I thought it worthwhile. You know I am a retailer, so you can take what I say anyway you like, but my intentions are for the brewing community.

I am also a brewer, been brewing and a member here for 10 years. I am not saying buy anything off me.

I pass opinions with regards to making the best beer. That is what is in everyone's interest. I trust most people see it that way.

If you remain unhappy you can report this to the moderators.

Cheers Steve


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## good4whatAlesU

Weyermenn and Gladfield grains are from cooler climates with (slightly) higher rainfalls than the Australian grain belt.


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## good4whatAlesU

And I suspect slightly better soils with less sand and dust blasting the fields.

Actually the snow on the southern Alps of NZ occasionally glow red with dust from Australian soils.


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## Phoney

Has anyone here tried Gladfield pilsner & can compare to Weyermann pilsner?


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## Quokka42

While you have admitted you are one of those who hate JW because it is less profitable, I think you should try some of their others - their amber and roasted barley add some excellent notes for those of us who love classic British Ales - I was converted from a crappy kit brewer to a crafter by a girlfriend who was a member of CAMRA, plus while most of Australia only drank highly processed sugar lager swill, Perth has a huge number of POMEs so I was able to try English beers on tap.

That and a friend gave me a classic book - can't remember the guy's name now and he died about 10 years ago - with old recipes that even included stuff like wheatbix (I used Vita-Brix and the result was actually quite nice.)

I don't hate you for it (unless you are also a hipster,) but if you don't stock what I want I won't buy it from you.

Edit: I was replying to Brewman_ - just a couple posted in-between.


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## good4whatAlesU

Tasmanian barley and maltsters would be the go. Anyone recommend any?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Phoney said:


> Has anyone here tried Gladfield pilsner & can compare to Weyermann pilsner?


IMO Weyermann > Gladfield > Oz Pilsners*.

Having had a lot of exposure to Oz pilsner malts from both the production and brewing persectives, I think the dominant barley varieties grown here make better ale malts, they tend to retain a grassy edge when restricted to Pilsner levels of modification.


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## Brewman_

Quokka42 said:


> While you have admitted you are one of those who hate JW because it is less profitable, I think you should try some of their others - their amber and roasted barley add some excellent notes for those of us who love classic British Ales - I was converted from a crappy kit brewer to a crafter by a girlfriend who was a member of CAMRA, plus while most of Australia only drank highly processed sugar lager swill, Perth has a huge number of POMEs so I was able to try English beers on tap.
> 
> That and a friend gave me a classic book - can't remember the guy's name now and he died about 10 years ago - with old recipes that even included stuff like wheatbix (I used Vita-Brix and the result was actually quite nice.)
> 
> I don't hate you for it (unless you are also a hipster,) but if you don't stock what I want I won't buy it from you.
> 
> Edit: I was replying to Brewman_ - just a couple posted in-between.


I have never ever said I hate Joe White. Not here and not in any exchange or in any private conversation. That has never happened.

I have a preference and lets face it, there is no point holding two Australian malts. I have BB mainly and others have JW, you'll make good beer from both.

I said that I do have JW malts. I am a retailer of theirs.

Cheers Steve


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## Blind Dog

Quokka42 said:


> While you have admitted you are one of those who hate JW because it is less profitable, I think you should try some of their others - their amber and roasted barley add some excellent notes for those of us who love classic British Ales - I was converted from a crappy kit brewer to a crafter by a girlfriend who was a member of CAMRA, plus while most of Australia only drank highly processed sugar lager swill, Perth has a huge number of POMEs so I was able to try English beers on tap.
> 
> That and a friend gave me a classic book - can't remember the guy's name now and he died about 10 years ago - with old recipes that even included stuff like wheatbix (I used Vita-Brix and the result was actually quite nice.)
> 
> I don't hate you for it (unless you are also a hipster,) but if you don't stock what I want I won't buy it from you.
> 
> Edit: I was replying to Brewman_ - just a couple posted in-between.


Just quietly, he never said he hated it, just that he doesn't stock it, with a couple of exceptions. I have noticed that most brew shops that stock a decent grain range tend to stock either JW or BB, rarely both. As he then goes on to express an opinion as a brewer, I personally think he should be applauded for being so upfront and honest.


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## good4whatAlesU

A couple of these beers use exclusively Tasmanian grains - would be worth a comparo:

https://brunyislandcheese.com.au/beer


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## manticle

@quokka - He didn't say it was less profitable either.
In between which lines on what page from which book are you reading?


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## Brewno Marz

Phoney said:


> Has anyone here tried Gladfield pilsner & can compare to Weyermann pilsner?


Yes. Both are great base malts. You'll get great results with either.


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## barls

ok all lets get back on topic of the malts and not what people stock or are haters of.


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## manticle

good4whatAlesU said:


> A couple of these beers use exclusively Tasmanian grains - would be worth a comparo:
> https://brunyislandcheese.com.au/beer


Not for horses folded away soon after it started. Only other maltser down here I know of is JW but that website mentioned tas grown, not specifically tas malted.

I would love to know of and purchase grain local to me of a high quality so if you know different, please elaborate. There is a lot of lovely whisky down here so presumably they are buying from somewhere (probably JW)

Wasn't a big fan of the bottled farm ale I tried but Bruny is superb so next time I go I'll make sure I try it in situ/context.


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## Quokka42

Brewman_ said:


> I have never ever said I hate Joe White. Not here and not in any exchange or in any private conversation. That has never happened.
> 
> I have a preference and lets face it, there is no point holding two Australian malts. I have BB mainly and others have JW, you'll make good beer from both.
> 
> I said that I do have JW malts. I am a retailer of theirs.
> 
> Cheers Steve


Fairy nuff.

I'm sure I have warned people I am proudly Australian (and actually worked illegally as a Chef when younger.)

I might look into your BB if I find myself wealthy enough - but may I ask a former workmate to drop a couple of bottles of my best in to you when he is next in town?

We all like to keep open minds, right?


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## technobabble66

Quokka42 said:


> ... but I don't understand why some are so anti-JW. ...





Quokka42 said:


> .... I know brew shops and hipsters don't like them because they are cheap, and some people just don't like Australia...​....


Rather than wonder why there are _many_ brewers that prefer other maltsters and go off assuming it's because they're hipsters (let's face it, we could just sub in the word "wanker") or retailers simply trying to maximise their profits, maybe consider another possibility: that there are quite a few brewers on here who have also been All-Grain brewing for many years, with at least a few decent results, who have tried many different maltsters, and have simply realised that for various styles or just generally across the board, other maltsters produce better malts for their needs. 

Have you tried many/any of these other maltster, including the Aussie ones? - I see you've tried some Gladfields spec malts. I'd agree they're great, and some of their specs are quite unique. OTOH, they're also probably one of the farthest to the other end of the spectrum - i.e.: they're some of the highest quality and highest price malts.
FWIW, i'd also be very, very heavily constrained by lack of funds. Luckily i've been able to get onto some bulk buys to get my hands on a variety of the UK, Euro, US, & NZ malts. All are great, with their strengths and weaknesses. The main weakness for most of them is the cost at normal prices! 

As has been touched on, there's generally certain malts that are better/best for some styles. When i say that, by the way, that's not necessarily because we're desperately seeking approval for simply using a genuine/authentic/traditional set of ingredients. I think you'll find most good brewers couldn't give a toss about that bollocks. Instead, it's simply a case of certain malts are better at producing a particular flavour that is best for that type of beer.
The easiest example of this that springs to mind is Dingemanns Biscuit. This particular type of biscuity (surprise!) maltiness is perfect (in my experience) for matching the type of flavours that the belgian yeasts produce. I haven't tried the Gladfields version TBH, however i'd definitely say it's better than any other similar malt i've tried. Everything else just doesn't quite blend in as smoothly or enhance the overall beer as much. The others are not necessarily bad, they're just not quite as good, or the resulting beers are just not quite as good. Obviously, this is all in the tastebuds of this beholder!
In comparison to that is, say Simpsons' Amber (a broadly similar malt). Not so great in a belgian or 2 i've tried it in. However, awesome in Ambers, (Pales), Browns, Porters and Stouts. Similarly for Briess' Victory.
This kinda makes sense in that these maltsters have traditionally produced malts for local breweries that produce local styles, so they need to produce the best malts to specifically suit those breweries and the types of beers they have specialised in for many many years. Hence, it's not going to be surprising to find UK maltsters produce some malts that are some of the best for bitters, browns, porters, stouts and other UK styles. Similarly, the german maltster produce malts specifically designed to suit german lagers, Alts/etc, & pilsners; and the Belgian maltster produce some of the best malts for the various belgian styles. Worth noting the US maltster produce certain malts that specifically suit some of their New World styles. Or maybe you could argue that the New World styles have come about because the brewers there have had to try to find recipes that make best use of the local malts ... (at least a bit of the former from what the Briess maltsters have commented on before).
Obviously there're some exceptions. 
Now, what local styles do the traditional/long-standing Aussie maltsters need to produce their malts for? Hmmm ... aussie lagers.
Hence, they suit aussie lagers very well.
But for other types of beers, there may be better malts to use.
That's not to say you can't make other great beers from JW. As stated before, many beer styles can be made well from JW, as you can compensate with certain spec malts or just tweak the recipe as best you can to suit. However, it's generally best to use the malts that are better suited to that particular type of beer. Especially for a beer like a pilsner or german lager - given they're ~100% pilsner malt, it doesn't leave much wriggle room to alter the malt element. Hence, there's a lot of _experienced_ brewers out there/here who recommend Wey pils for a euro lager - because they've tried a few different malts and Wey is the best for their tastes. Or Dingemann. Or Gladfield.

By the way, I'm bothering to write all this because i went through a similar process a few years ago - wondering why JW was used by a lot of brewers, but most recommended certain other maltsters, especially for particular styles. It's taken a few years and many beers later to understand the reasons.

FWIW, have you tried Viking? It's a Finnish maltster. I've been using a fair bit of their Pale Ale & Munich for the last year - cheap as chips, very consistent, and really good for the price. Homemakeit sell in melbourne. Maybe look into it if you're watching the pennies like me. Not aussie, i know, but it's something different for you to consider.

A minor point, the only over-priced/rip-off LHBS i know happens to mainly stock JW.
And i believe retailers typically use a standard markup on the grains in their store. So the price difference you see on different maltsters in a store is probably reflective of the wholesale price they pay, rather than their attempts to rip you off.

And one other thing, when someone says "Czech Pilsner" it's again not because they're simply being twats trying to emulate a traditional style for the sake of it. Most of the time, at least on this forum, they're just using that particular label to simply describe a certain combination/balance of malt, hops & yeast elements that is emulated in a Czech Pils. So rather than spend a paragraph describing exactly what they're after, or what they've achieved, you can simply say "Czech pils" and move on. Some might be a little precious about exactly what a style is, most just see it as a general descriptor guideline.

Happy brewing & keep up the enthusiasm!


----------



## barls

enough of the insults and crap
last warning all.


----------



## labels

For those that haven't heard, Coopers Brewery are building a $63M malting plant in Adelaide. This is not a mucking around piece of infrastructure. Being my own business is in the same suburb, I've been watching it take shape over the past 12 months it's huge. I've heard (not confirmed, only hearsay) that Coopers will only need 10% of the output for their own brewery and the rest is for export.

I don't know whether or not they will make the malts available for homebrewers but have come to the conclusion it will cause a conflict of interest with the Coopers homebrew kits but, you never know. Wait and see I guess.


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## barls

labels said:


> For those that haven't heard, Coopers Brewery are building a $63M malting plant in Adelaide. This is not a mucking around piece of infrastructure. Being my own business is in the same suburb, I've been watching it take shape over the past 12 months it's huge. I've heard (not confirmed, only hearsay) that Coopers will only need 10% of the output for their own brewery and the rest is for export.
> 
> I don't know whether or not they will make the malts available for homebrewers but have come to the conclusion it will cause a conflict of interest with the Coopers homebrew kits but, you never know. Wait and see I guess.


when we did the tour at anhc. they were talking about making it available to home brewers. this was also mentioned in the presentation dr tim gave as well.


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## good4whatAlesU

Excellent, the more the merrier. Lets hope they make a good range and quality of malts. Provenance of the grains would be good too.


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## Danscraftbeer

Wow this topic is hot I haven't read it all but personal experience Weyermann seems obviously superior as in a very clear pre boil wort for one example. I mean Finished beer bright clear wort. I really don't know what to make of that to be honest just personal experience.
Oh, and others tips not to use JW from negative opinion but just taste the grain! etc. So I rarely use JW it to be honest.
Pity that for Aussie made. I will however get fresh local malted grain from Powels Malts. Its pretty darn good I think because its so fresh. It has a nutty note to it, smaller harder grain but hits the usual efficiency levels. Pretty clear wort too.
Get local fresh if you can for good aussie stuff.


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## MHB

Its funny , the concept of freshness, Malt and Coffee need to be allowed to vent after being either malted or roasted, if you use either too early or too late they don't taste as good.
If you want some idea of why the Weyermann wort is so clear, have a look at the Coarse/Fine difference, the Weyermann is typically under 1%, that is bordering on over modified, but it sure as hell makes for brilliant wort (that among other things).
Personally I wouldn't choose anything other than the Weyermann for a Pilsner, knowing my taste for big south German/Czech styles it would probably be the floor malted version.
Mark


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## Danscraftbeer

So I can only imagine that the whole process from seed to grain is the major influence.
That can only be influenced by global location really. Seasonal, soil, influence on the growing of the grain.
Just thinking out loud.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I used to get Jw pils directly from the factory. 

If I was doing a Euro lager, no way, but with a good boil and grist, great for an IPA or APA.

This parochial rubbish is irrelevant.


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## MHB

Danscraftbeer said:


> So I can only imagine that the whole process from seed to grain is the major influence.
> That can only be influenced by global location really. Seasonal, soil, influence on the growing of the grain.
> Just thinking out loud.


One of those "everything ends up in the glass" type of things. The type of barley (breed) and everything you mentioned all play a part, even a good thunderstorm at the wrong can change the protein content of the grain.

LRG
I think it can be taken too far but the type malt available, the brewing processes used and the beer that came out the end all co-evolved.
Typical British very low protein highly modified, well kilned malt is the best (or the best suited) to making isothermal mashed UK ales.
Historically the under-modified European malts lead to decoction and step temperature mashes, and ultimately to the clear pilsner beers of central Europe.

We are lucky to have such a range to choose from, I have mentioned before that when I started AG brewing we could get about 5 malts all from Adelaide Malt - then owned by Coopers, since sold to JW - over 20 years ago now I was paying $65 for a bag of base malt... and the choice was call it limited.
All the base malt was Schooner and you can really only make one beer with schooner, its a lot like the beer Coppers made at the time (not a bad thing) but limited...
Mark


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## good4whatAlesU

Australian springs/summers of the grain growing region can be very hot and (mostly) dry. I'm guessing the slightly milder summers of Germany and NZ slow down the grain ripening. Also their yields are slightly higher per hectare so the plants aren't standing balls in the wind. That's why I thought Tassie might be the go (or at least a cooler irrigated area) rather than hot dry land.


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## klangers

The malting process requires an enormous amount of water, and electricity for refrigeration. I think any variation between Wey and JW is more about the malting process, as Wey have access to more water and use less electricity (because they're in a cool climate) so it costs them less to do it properly. JW, on the other hand, are a macro maltster whose market is significantly more price-driven. JW operate for the domestic breweries which have very narrow SKU ranges. Hence, JW cuts the process to the bone in order to meet customer and market demands.

Hopefully a craft malting scene starts up here. Hell, maybe I can be part of that if I get off my lazy arse and finish my home malt plant!


----------



## good4whatAlesU

Get into it Klangers - the more the merrier. 

I might order some JW and Weyerman and do a direct comparison with my feedbag malt 

If the feedbag is comparable, I'll put it on the market for 99c a kilo.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

MHB said:


> LRG
> I think it can be taken too far but the type malt available, the brewing processes used and the beer that came out the end all co-evolved.
> Typical British very low protein highly modified, well kilned malt is the best (or the best suited) to making isothermal mashed UK ales.
> Historically the under-modified European malts lead to decoction and step temperature mashes, and ultimately to the clear pilsner beers of central Europe.



Agreed totally. And appreciate your technical contributions to the discussion.

My issue is that others saying "you are a hipster for saying Aussie malts aren't as good" misses the point and adds nothing to the discussion.

For me, it's a horses for courses thing, and as I've said in other threads - I generally lean UK, because it makes the beers I like to brew.


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## Bribie G

My current blonde ale was going to be an all Aussie with topaz and ella but I ended up using Weyermann as a single malt and the rich maltiness is amazing.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

klangers said:


> The malting process requires an enormous amount of water, and electricity for refrigeration.


And gas or other heat source for kilning, but economically these are overshadowed by one simple factor: it takes seven days to complete a cycle.

Each part of the maltings (two steepings, four germinating floors, one kiln) must be sized for the same size batch, so the maltster ends up running that size batch every day to maximise return on investment.

If you are going to supply the big end of town, that batch size is 200 tonnes minimum so you are producing about 70,000 tonnes PA. If you can save $10 a tonne by salting in a percentage of feed barley, that's almost a million a year.

This is also why Australian maltsters can seem a little inflexible compared to some of the other players: good luck selling a 200 tonne batch of Munich or Vienna malt on the domestic market in a single sale, so the best option is for every batch to be a pale malt to customer spec.


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## Nullnvoid

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Agreed totally. And appreciate your technical contributions to the discussion.
> 
> My issue is that others saying "you are a hipster for saying Aussie malts aren't as good" misses the point and adds nothing to the discussion.
> 
> For me, it's a horses for courses thing, and as I've said in other threads - I generally lean UK, because it makes the beers I like to brew.



"Horses for Courses" is Not for Horses new business venture.


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## klangers

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> And gas or other heat source for kilning, but economically these are overshadowed by one simple factor: it takes seven days to complete a cycle.
> 
> Each part of the maltings (two steepings, four germinating floors, one kiln) must be sized for the same size batch, so the maltster ends up running that size batch every day to maximise return on investment.
> 
> If you are going to supply the big end of town, that batch size is 200 tonnes minimum so you are producing about 70,000 tonnes PA. If you can save $10 a tonne by salting in a percentage of feed barley, that's almost a million a year.
> 
> This is also why Australian maltsters can seem a little inflexible compared to some of the other players: good luck selling a 200 tonne batch of Munich or Vienna malt on the domestic market in a single sale, so the best option is for every batch to be a pale malt to customer spec.


Yeah that's what I was getting at. It's about technical reasons and economics of established players; not really about Australia being unable to grow or malt quality barley.

Energy cost is a very significant factor in determining profitability of malting. The cycle time can't be changed (without process changes like gibberellic acid additions, grain roughening to aid with steeping), and so a maltster in a cold climate doesn't need to expend anywhere near the same amount of energy to provide cool, moist air to germination over several days. Kilning does require a lot of gas, but modern plants have heat recovery which drastically improves efficiency.

I would love to see the Weyermann plant and understand how they manage such a huge product range.


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## Glomp

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Yes I've seen that too but it makes no sense. World barley production is about 100 MT PA. Australian barley production is about 8 MT PA. Around 30% of the crop reaches malting grade.
> 
> reference: https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/Resources%5CCraftBrewing%5CPDFs%5CAgricultural_Reports_and_Papers/BSG_CROPREPORT_PRESENTATION_2014.pdf
> 
> On the other hand Australia exports an unusually large percentage of its malt production, mostly due to our proximity to a bunch of countries with hot wet climates which are inimical to barley production.


It makes sense as australia is one of the chief players in the trade of barley seen from the below quote from http://aegic.org.au/about/australian-grains/barley/.. It doesn't produce anything like that percentage though in world production terms. 

Australia is a dominant player in world barley export markets, representing more than 40 percent of the world’s malting barley trade and 20 percent of the feed barley trade. It
Demand for high quality barley is strong both in Australia and internationally with Australian barley well recognised for its excellent malt and feed qualities. Australia produces two-row spring barley that is plump and bright with moderate protein content. Harvested grain has low moisture content with long storage viability.


----------



## peteru

labels said:


> I don't know whether or not they will make the malts available for homebrewers but have come to the conclusion it will cause a conflict of interest with the Coopers homebrew kits but, you never know.


No conflict at all. If you have a look at the stuff that comes out of Cooper's club, they certainly encourage homebrewers to progress from kit and kilo to steeping grains, partial mash and eventually all grain. It's in their best interest to have the whole spectrum covered. They don't want to lose customers when they graduate from canned extract to all grain.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

klangers said:


> Yeah that's what I was getting at. It's about technical reasons and economics of established players; not really about Australia being unable to grow or malt quality barley.
> 
> Energy cost is a very significant factor in determining profitability of malting. The cycle time can't be changed (without process changes like gibberellic acid additions, grain roughening to aid with steeping), and so a maltster in a cold climate doesn't need to expend anywhere near the same amount of energy to provide cool, moist air to germination over several days. Kilning does require a lot of gas, but modern plants have heat recovery which drastically improves efficiency.
> 
> I would love to see the Weyermann plant and understand how they manage such a huge product range.


Yes, I'm aware of that: energy efficiency in processing was my PhD research area and I used to work in a maltings. My post wasn't meant to imply that the energy costs aren't significant, just that the practical economics of the inflexibility of use of an established plant dominate the way it is managed. As a rough guide, the energy input to a maltings will cost about $100 a tonne and it's a lot harder to save 10% of that than to scrimp on the barley.

I assume you are familiar with the energy recovery from kilns but since many here won't be here's something I found interesting:

One of the common forms of heat recovery consists of a bunch of thin walled glass tubes across the exhaust venting from the kiln. This always seemed odd to me until I realised that most of the energy input to the kiln is taken up but the heat of vaporisation of the water from the green malt, this is recovered by allowing the water to condense on the the tubes ( against incoming cold air). The tubes are thus continuously bathed in warm moist air and mould grows very quickly, so making the tubes of glass makes them easier to clean.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Glomp said:


> It makes sense as australia is one of the chief players in the trade of barley seen from the below quote from http://aegic.org.au/about/australian-grains/barley/.. It doesn't produce anything like that percentage though in world production terms.
> 
> Australia is a dominant player in world barley export markets, representing more than 40 percent of the world’s malting barley trade and 20 percent of the feed barley trade. It
> Demand for high quality barley is strong both in Australia and internationally with Australian barley well recognised for its excellent malt and feed qualities. Australia produces two-row spring barley that is plump and bright with moderate protein content. Harvested grain has low moisture content with long storage viability.


30% of world trade makes sense, the original statement was 30% of world use.

Australia is ~8% of world production and try as we might we can't drink it all here.


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## good4whatAlesU

It's quite amazing no one's come up with a little home scale (say 5kg) malting plant. 

Panasonic etc. make little bread-makers etc. and could easily knock one out. Program soak time, germination time (and temp), kiln time and temp. Put in a little revolving drum (or auger) to rotate the grain ... 

Home brewers would snap them up. I'd buy one in a heart-beat.


----------



## Glomp

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> 30% of world trade makes sense, the original statement was 30% of world use.
> 
> Australia is ~8% of world production and try as we might we can't drink it all here.


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## Glomp

Hi lyrebird.

I probably didn't word my reply correctly.

I meant that there was a reason why people got confused between the production and export percentages and that made sense to me.

Just as an aside , i once applied for a job at graincorp and on their site at the time they said with all their malting companies they were the worlds biggest malt conglomerate. I checked their website today and that remark has been removed or maybe things have changed.

But moving on weyermann always seems to get a lot of interest but what about the other german companies such as bestz.


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## good4whatAlesU

Did someone mention using Powells Malt (Victoria)?

I'd be keen to give it a go, does anyone know where to buy it? Or is it a custom order type of thing?


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## klangers

good4whatAlesU said:


> It's quite amazing no one's come up with a little home scale (say 5kg) malting plant.
> 
> Panasonic etc. make little bread-makers etc. and could easily knock one out. Program soak time, germination time (and temp), kiln time and temp. Put in a little revolving drum (or auger) to rotate the grain ...
> 
> Home brewers would snap them up. I'd buy one in a heart-beat.



It'd be rather expensive, and very un-scalable. Ie, the cost to make a 5kg vs 50kg isn't a whole lot different. I'd say at least $2.5K, for a 5kg based on what I've learnt so far.


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## good4whatAlesU

Why so expensive? The heating elements can't be that dear?

Just use a biab style basket, dunk it twice to chit. Drain, germinate (mix with an auger) and kiln.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

A few years back a brewer made one from an old front load clothes dryer with a thermostat on the heater element. Did the germinating and kilning in the one unit There was even a youtube clip but i cant find the original one

Here is a differenet one, but same idea


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## good4whatAlesU

A tricky bit not included in the washing machine style unit is cooling - as the grain germinates it needs to be kept at less than 20 C. I think that would be the tricky part. 

Soaking with water for a set time, draining ... it's all existing technology (robo brew etc). Heating and mixing is existing technology (breadmaker style things can do that and they are less than $100). Just change the bread paddle for an auger. 

I can't see how it would be more than about $500 for a unit if one of the big players decided to make them.


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## GalBrew

good4whatAlesU said:


> A tricky bit not included in the washing machine style unit is cooling - as the grain germinates it needs to be kept at less than 20 C. I think that would be the tricky part.
> 
> Soaking with water for a set time, draining ... it's all existing technology (robo brew etc). Heating and mixing is existing technology (breadmaker style things can do that and they are less than $100). Just change the bread paddle for an auger.
> 
> I can't see how it would be more than about $500 for a unit if one of the big players decided to make them.



I imagine that there isn't a demand for home malting, sufficient for the big players to bother. There aren't that many home brewers let alone home brewers who want to home malt. Maybe suggest to Keg King that they should look into it, I can't imagine anyone else would take that on.


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## good4whatAlesU

You'd be surprised .. were not just talking about Australia. The Yank market is huge.

.Everyone is going hipster. They want local materials and they want to make their own stuff (without all the hidden chemicals the big malsters use).

Edit: I can however, see one of the big maltsters buying up any patents for such as it would be bad for their business.


----------



## malt junkie

I did a big chunk of googling a few months back, there is a small startup in the States that is producing a nano maltings for the nano/home market. The machine included a chiller, pumps, controller, mounted under a conical. Be buggered if I can find it now though, if I do I'll post some links.


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## Ducatiboy stu

*A tricky bit not included in the washing machine style unit is cooling - as the grain germinates it needs to be kept at less than 20 C. I think that would be the tricky part. *

The one I watched had a fan in it as well to blow cold air in. Obviously ambient temp would play a part, but ~18 20* would not be to hard*

*Except in the middle of Australia in January..or Darwin


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## good4whatAlesU

Panasonic, Sanyo etc. or one of those players could knock them out for nix. ..


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## klangers

good4whatAlesU said:


> Why so expensive? The heating elements can't be that dear?
> 
> Just use a biab style basket, dunk it twice to chit. Drain, germinate (mix with an auger) and kiln.



Because it's far from just heating elements. Simply dunking to steep won't work reliably either. You'll need some way to replace the steep water, as well as aerate it. I have two pumps for this.

In germination, you need to manage, measure and control:

Temperature (multiple probes)
Humidity (a very expensive sensor)
CO2 levels (a very expensive sensor)
Grain turning (limit switches, encoders, servo motors)
A batch takes a week, so unless you're gonna come in every few hours and turn the grain, or change out steep water etc, then it's all gotta be fully automated. This is not an easy thing to do cheaply on a small scale

The thing, to work climates other than European winter, would have to have air conditioning, numerous fans and all sorts. You need to trim the amount of air which is recirculated/fresh, so automatic dampers (air valves) are necessary - these are hugely expensive on a small scale.

Then you have kilning, which requires huge airflow and thusly a big fan and massive energy input. To make this remotely affordable to run, heat recovery is necessary. 

You could make something that makes only pale malt, and poor pale malt at that, cheaply. But anything else that's remotely well-put together for retail sale would definitely be at least $2.5k.

I was confident it was a piece of piss too, until I started researching, designing and building, and the complexity kind of snowballed.


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## kaiserben

klangers said:


> I was confident it was a piece of piss too, until I started researching, designing and building, and the complexity kind of snowballed.



It's all a bit beyond me, but could you control it all via a Raspberry Pi? https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-3-model-b/

Multiple temp probes is no problem (I built a controller, with a lot of help) using 2 probes to control my ferment fridge's heating & cooling. I could easily add more temp sensors (but there's no need for my set up), and a fan (but I haven't been bothered).

I dunno if the following would be good enough (perhaps they could be for rudimentary home-made build), but I found:

A humidity sensor for $10, https://www.adafruit.com/product/385

A "MH-Z19 CO2 sensor" for ~AU$35, https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...hrome..69i57j69i60l2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

And the grain turning could be controlled via something like an 8-channel relay board being told what to do by the data being taken by the Raspberry Pi.

It'd require someone with coding experience (but there are quite a few home brewers already doing stuff to measure temps, gravity, amount of CO2 blown off and more, to control stuff like cooling, heating, fans, pumps, specific gravity and more).

EDIT: By "there are quite a few home brewers already doing stuff", I mean they're writing the code to measure and control all those things.


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## good4whatAlesU

klangers said:


> Because it's far from just heating elements. Simply dunking to steep won't work reliably either. You'll need some way to replace the steep water, as well as aerate it. I have two pumps for this.
> 
> In germination, you need to manage, measure and control:
> 
> Temperature (multiple probes)
> Humidity (a very expensive sensor)
> CO2 levels (a very expensive sensor)
> Grain turning (limit switches, encoders, servo motors)
> A batch takes a week, so unless you're gonna come in every few hours and turn the grain, or change out steep water etc, then it's all gotta be fully automated. This is not an easy thing to do cheaply on a small scale
> 
> The thing, to work climates other than European winter, would have to have air conditioning, numerous fans and all sorts. You need to trim the amount of air which is recirculated/fresh, so automatic dampers (air valves) are necessary - these are hugely expensive on a small scale.
> 
> Then you have kilning, which requires huge airflow and thusly a big fan and massive energy input. To make this remotely affordable to run, heat recovery is necessary.
> 
> You could make something that makes only pale malt, and poor pale malt at that, cheaply. But anything else that's remotely well-put together for retail sale would definitely be at least $2.5k.
> 
> I was confident it was a piece of piss too, until I started researching, designing and building, and the complexity kind of snowballed.



This is way overkill. 

Soak for two timed intervals (with a drain in between)
Germinate (and turn) until the acrospire is 100% length of grain (at around 18c)
Kiln at desired temps. 

Piece of piss. 

What you are talking about is commercial tolerances. What I'm talking about is small home made batches of malt.


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## barls

ok guys far enough off track. please create a new thread if you want to talk about home malting.


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## rude

Best Maltz Heidelberg now you are talking


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## rude

Only used it for a Kolsch though


----------



## Randai

So on the topic of domestic vs import. I've found the BB ale malt actually pretty great when brewing ales with a bit more malty background, in fact compared to TFFMO I haven't noticed too much difference. Though this is with the caveat that I haven't brewed side by side and tasted them.
Though I have found the import ale malts pretty good in general and not of inferior quality, just not something that immediately struck me as "wow this is all I'll ever buy again"

Has anyone done that or have some input on say our ale malts vs international/import ale malts?


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## Mardoo

Barrett Burston ale is lovely malt. For some reason it's not that easy for us Mexicans to get ahold of, as far as I know, even though it's malted in Geelong, VIC.

Voyager rocks. I'm not big on JW, had some odd beers out of it. That said, a well-known homebrew shop subbed JW pils for Weyermann when I was brewing a kolsch, and people sucked it down like mother's milk. Hell, even my MIL was drinking it for breakfast.

Brew what you love, love what you brew. However I don't love what I'm currently drinking, which I brewed, but today alcohol is necessary.


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## malt junkie

Mardoo said:


> Barrett Burston ale is lovely malt. For some reason it's not that easy for us Mexicans to get ahold of, as far as I know, even though it's malted in Geelong, VIC.
> 
> Voyager rocks. I'm not big on JW, had some odd beers out of it. That said, a well-known homebrew shop subbed JW pils for Weyermann when I was brewing a kolsch, and people sucked it down like mother's milk. Hell, even my MIL was drinking it for breakfast.
> 
> Brew what you love, love what you brew. However I don't love what I'm currently drinking, which I brewed, but today alcohol is necessary.


Well mate we'll just have to have a few with ya.


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## Adr_0

Mardoo said:


> Barrett Burston ale is lovely malt. For some reason it's not that easy for us Mexicans to get ahold of, as far as I know, even though it's malted in Geelong, VIC.
> 
> Voyager rocks. I'm not big on JW, had some odd beers out of it. That said, a well-known homebrew shop subbed JW pils for Weyermann when I was brewing a kolsch, and people sucked it down like mother's milk. Hell, even my MIL was drinking it for breakfast.
> 
> Brew what you love, love what you brew. However I don't love what I'm currently drinking, which I brewed, but today alcohol is necessary.


So which one ended up in the beer - the JW or Weyermann? 

Meanwhile, I was pretty sure that JW had a Lager malt as well as Pils. That may have been the distinction between 'normal' and 'export'. Though I'm thinking back about 15 years when they were at Dinmore or Redbank - I'm sure things have changed.


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## Mardoo

Adr_0 said:


> So which one ended up in the beer - the JW or Weyermann?
> 
> Meanwhile, I was pretty sure that JW had a Lager malt as well as Pils. That may have been the distinction between 'normal' and 'export'. Though I'm thinking back about 15 years when they were at Dinmore or Redbank - I'm sure things have changed.


It was the JW that ended up in the kolsch.


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## Brewman_

Love Kolsch!.

For me it's about the yeast with that beer. Delicate soft fruit characters that the yeast throws.

Point being, not so much "malt" driven. But also not to be ignored.


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## Randai

Brewman_ said:


> Love Kolsch!.
> 
> For me it's about the yeast with that beer. Delicate soft fruit characters that the yeast throws.
> 
> Point being, not so much "malt" driven. But also not to be ignored.


I was going to ask since I haven't found out any more information (and your site doesn't have more information). But what is "porter malt", is a base malt like the stout malt that has been popping up recently? or is it a brown malt? roasted?


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## Adr_0

Randai said:


> I was going to ask since I haven't found out any more information (and your site doesn't have more information). But what is "porter malt", is a base malt like the stout malt that has been popping up recently? or is it a brown malt? roasted?


It's not the Tooheys Old choc malt by chance?


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## Randai

Adr_0 said:


> It's not the Tooheys Old choc malt by chance?


No idea, never even seen/heard of it around at hoppy days or craft brewer.


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## MHB

Randai said:


> I was going to ask since I haven't found out any more information (and your site doesn't have more information). But what is "porter malt", is a base malt like the stout malt that has been popping up recently? or is it a brown malt? roasted?



Before Joe White was brought by Cargill, they used to call Porter Malt what is now called Roasted Malt.
It is I believe made to Coopers specifications, it is the only difference between Coopers Pale Ale and Coopers Dark Ale. I think it is what Coopers use to make their stout too.
Mark

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/attach...5/?temp_hash=06a59397ccea092aeec71c132dbeaab9


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## Randai

MHB said:


> Before Joe White was brought by Cargill, they used to call Porter Malt what is now called Roasted Malt.
> It is I believe made to Coopers specifications, it is the only difference between Coopers Pale Ale and Coopers Dark Ale. I think it is what Coopers use to make their stout too.
> Mark
> 
> https://aussiehomebrewer.com/attach...5/?temp_hash=06a59397ccea092aeec71c132dbeaab9


Huh cool, so is it different from say black malt?
I do remember coopers stout having a bit of ashiness/acridness to it, I guess it'd be from this malt.


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