# Cascade Draught



## quachy (4/5/08)

Hi all, very new to the homebrew scene, but very excited. First brew was the one supplied with the coopers kit, a coopers larger. Turned out beautiful, although the first few had a yeastie taste to them. Second brew is largering and is a Coopers European Larger and all seems to be going well. Now on to my third brew which is a cascade draught. After reading the forum about the yeast supplied with the can, I thought, I'll give it a try with the supplied yeast and see how I go. Ptiched yeast at 24 degrees, OG 1046 and after 6 days stopped at 1040 temp at 18-22 celcius. I then did some more reading and found that I could use some yeast from the bottom of a coopers. So got the first bottle of Coopers E. Larger, which had pretty thick yeast sediment on the bottom. Drank most of the beer (which has only been in the bottle for 2 weeks - pretty good, can't wait for the recommended 6 wks+) and then proceeded to "harvest" the yeast. Got some of the wort in a sterile s.s jug, covered with cling film and then put into a container of warm water to heat wort a little. Then I swirled the inch or so of beer remaining in the bottle to get the yeast floating and poured into the ss jug. Then straight into the fermenter. That was yesterday and today the fermenter is steadily bubbling away with a thin layer of bubbles on the surface (which has increased during the day). Fingers crossed I haven't killed my batch! Thing is I bought a cascade lager and porter (on sale at coles $10.95 - could resist) and am hoping that the bloody yeast supplied is better than the one I used. Not likely from what I have read!

Anyway my question is, what signs should I be looking for in regards to infection?

Awsome forum by the way!

Quachy

PS - nearest HBS is 1hr 15mins away, so unless there is a good online shop, it's kits for me


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## sponge (4/5/08)

quachy said:


> PS - nearest HBS is 1hr 15mins away, so unless there is a good online shop, it's kits for me



Check the sponsors websites at the top of the page. theyre all quite useful indeed


Sponge



PS. and that thin layers of bubbles which is increasing, most probably the krausen. tis a beautiful sight... all perfectally normal in terms of fermentation


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## Hutch (5/5/08)

quachy said:


> Anyway my question is, what signs should I be looking for in regards to infection?


G'day Quachy and welcome aboard,

Infection is pretty obvious when it happens - you'll not want to drink the beer! Be thankful if this one turns out well after 6 days at 1.040!
Also, if you're going to be buying your kits from a supermarket, then the best advice I can give you is to ditch the kit yeast and buy your yeast from one of the site sponsors.
Those kits often sit on the shop shelves long enough to kill most of the yeast under the lid - no surprise your brew didn't fire.

2 dry yeasts you should consider as good all rounders that give excellent results (you'll see many brewers here use these most often):
Safale US-05 (good clean ales)
Saflager S-189 (all lagers, "Swiss Lager" from Craftbrewer)
These, along with proper fermentation temperature, will get you a much better result to the kit yeasts, and won't leave you with a stuck ferment, and possibly infected beer.

Secondly, have a look at the "Best Before" date under the can, and try to buy the newest kit on the shelf - the kits tend to degrade quite noticably over a year or 2, and you will notice more of a "twang" flavour in kits that are too old.

Thirdly, ignore all advice on the kits to use sugar and ferment at 28deg. The manufacturers should be castrated for preaching this gospel!
Instead of sugar, use one of the Coopers brew Enhancers, or dextrose, and ferment at 18-20deg for ales, and 10-12deg for lagers.

Happy brewing.
Hutch.


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## Thunderlips (5/5/08)

quachy said:


> I then did some more reading and found that I could use some yeast from the bottom of a coopers. So got the first bottle of Coopers E. Larger, which had pretty thick yeast sediment on the bottom. Drank most of the beer (which has only been in the bottle for 2 weeks - pretty good, can't wait for the recommended 6 wks+) and then proceeded to "harvest" the yeast.


Quachy, I think you'll find that when people refer to using yeast from a Coopers they mean the bottled version from the brewery, such as 
Pale Ale and Sparkling Ale, not the yeast from the bottom of your kit European Lager.


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## quachy (5/5/08)

Thunderlips said:


> Quachy, I think you'll find that when people refer to using yeast from a Coopers they mean the bottled version from the brewery, such as
> Pale Ale and Sparkling Ale, not the yeast from the bottom of your kit European Lager.



Yeah that's what I figured, but as mentioned b4, nearest hbs is 1 1/2 hrs away and didn't have any pale ales laying around, so I thought I could at least give the yeast sediment a crack and hopefully get something out of this batch as I was considering ditching it anyway. Seems to be working now, all other variables same as before and fermenting away nicely. When up to bottling stage, I'll make a post to let you all know if the brew has been salvaged or destroyed. I've got a couple more cascade kits left (on sale) but will be ordering some yeat from the one of the links above. Thanks for the input all.

Quachy


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## boingk (5/5/08)

Welcome Quachy - good to see you've decided to get into the game! Sure beats getting your hard earned dosh pillaged out of your pockets by ravaging hoardes of bastar...er, taxmen 

Good to hear your first brew went ok - mine was horrible as the Tooheys kit I bought had maltodextrin in it, not dextrose or malt. Basically, it was thick, dark, flat, and chewy...not cool. After that I whizzed right down to the homebrew store and asked what I could do. A half hour later I was working on creating a Heineken-style brew which ended up coming out not too bad...and it all went from there.

Keep us posted, and welcome to the world of homebrewing - boingk


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## Slurpdog (5/5/08)

Quachy

Welcome to the forums, and ditto what everyone else has said regarding online purchases from site sponsors.

They really are worth patronising.

Also fill in your location as there may be someone local to you who can help you out.


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## quachy (6/5/08)

OK, she is smelling a bit 'farty' at the moment and I was wondering if its infected? Don't want to waste time bottling if its just gonna turn out bad! Plenty of bubbles and krausen looks thickish. SG 1032 at day 10, so still fermenting. Any input very welcome.

Quachy


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## mckenry (6/5/08)

quachy said:


> OK, she is smelling a bit 'farty' at the moment and I was wondering if its infected? Don't want to waste time bottling if its just gonna turn out bad! Plenty of bubbles and krausen looks thickish. SG 1032 at day 10, so still fermenting. Any input very welcome.
> 
> Quachy



Patience is a virtue quachy  If your taking SG readings, taste the sample. It'll be obvious if its infected.


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## Cocko (6/5/08)

quachy said:


> OK, she is smelling a bit 'farty' at the moment and I was wondering if its infected? Don't want to waste time bottling if its just gonna turn out bad! Plenty of bubbles and krausen looks thickish. SG 1032 at day 10, so still fermenting. Any input very welcome.
> 
> Quachy




Yo Quach-man!

Still a young buck my self, but my advice is listen to the guys on this forum!

'Farty smells' come with different brew so don't stress - If it is still fermenting, as per SG readings, sit back and let the yeast do its thing. My third brew took 16 days! to finish and it smelt the whole way, I bottled it and am looking forward to trying it... it could be the worst beer I have ever had or it could be the best - at least I will know!! 

If you tip yours you will never know!!

please try a 6 week wait - just once!!

Cheers and Welcome.

Cocko.
:beer:


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## earle (7/5/08)

Quachy

As Cocko indicated the farty smell is typical of the sulphur compounds that lager yeasts can produce. It dissipates over time especially if you rack or leave a bit longer in primary. What temp are you fermenting at?


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## quachy (8/5/08)

earle said:


> Quachy
> 
> As Cocko indicated the farty smell is typical of the sulphur compounds that lager yeasts can produce. It dissipates over time especially if you rack or leave a bit longer in primary. What temp are you fermenting at?




temp varies between 19-21 degrees. Does this make a huge difference?

Quachy


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## earle (9/5/08)

Lower temperature would give a cleaner flavour. Having said that 19-21 is not extremely high and seems farily constant. At higher temperatures lager yeasts will throw off some bad tastes. Yours should be fine.


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## quachy (12/5/08)

Hi all, still fermenting, down to 1016-1015 now, day 15 20 degrees.

Tastes like beer out of the test tube with a little bit of sweetness (not much).

Think it might turn out afterall.

I'll keep you all posted.

Quachy


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## itguy1953 (12/5/08)

Be careful with your temps in Bacchus Marsh. From memory, it gets very cold overnight. 

Most of the yeasts supplied with extract cans are ale yeasts designed to work at 18degC plus. If the temp falls below this at 6pm at night, by midnight the wort will be to cold for the yeast to work. Then in the morning, the wort will not get up to 18degC until midday. So at best, you are going to get some fermentation for 12 hours per day, but probably less.

The Cooper E Lager yeast might be a true lager yeast which will continue to work down to 5degC, which means it will probably work 24 hours per day. Adding a good yeast cake from one of your EL bottles ensured you got a good population of lager yeast to get started.

Unless you are going to heat your fermenter over winter, you are better to use a true lager yeast. The Saflager S23 is a good one, and so is Saflager W34/70. I have use S23 heaps of times, and it always turns out a great clean tasting beer. I have recently put two new brews on top of the S23 yeast cake in my primary fermenter. I got the bubbler going within the hour, and bubbles racing out within 12 hours. I left the brew at room temp overnight, and then put it in the lager fridge at 12-15 degC. Lager yeasts work more slowly, and over the last 6 days, the SG has dropped from around 1048 to 1015. Still some work left for the yeast to do, which i expect will take another week or so to complete. Slow and steady does it.

Barry


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## quachy (12/5/08)

Barry R said:


> Be careful with your temps in Bacchus Marsh. From memory, it gets very cold overnight.
> 
> Most of the yeasts supplied with extract cans are ale yeasts designed to work at 18degC plus. If the temp falls below this at 6pm at night, by midnight the wort will be to cold for the yeast to work. Then in the morning, the wort will not get up to 18degC until midday. So at best, you are going to get some fermentation for 12 hours per day, but probably less.
> 
> ...




Barry, yeah can get cold here. Got the fermenter inside with a thick towel around it. Also got a digital thermometer which measures max/min temps stuck to the outside of the fermenter. The variance has been 19-22 degrees over the past 16 days. Will be moving to the garage next and will have to either use different yeast or buy a pad or belt heater. Npt sure which yet, any ideas?

Using the yeast cake, how does that work, do you just put ingredients directly over the top of the yeast cake or do you take a few spoonfulls and culture????? Please excuse the ignorance here 

Quachy


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## boingk (12/5/08)

Please don't buy a heater pad/belt/abomination...lager yeasts are AWESOME! I'd highly recommend either W34/70 or S189, the former a popular German lager yeast and the latter a very crisp, neutral lager yeast from Switzerland if I remember correctly. 

Just make sure you don't baulk at bottling time if the brew smells of rotten eggs or sulphur - this is quite usual for a true lager yeast when used correctly. I found out the hard way and only thought of this while in the process of tipping my brew down the crapper!

With reusing a cake, take a clean cup of the slurry [or a good, big spoonful...whatever really] and dump that into the brew wating to be fermented. You'll have the quickest start you've ever had.

Cheers - boingk


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## quachy (13/5/08)

gravity still at 1015 but airlock still bubbling away. I am assuming that it's still fermenting, but gravity not getting any lower. Why could this be? Currently at day 17 and has been at 1015 for 2 days. Temp 19.

Quachy


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## sponge (13/5/08)

Take another reading tomorrow arvo, and if its still says 1015 then id assume you're safe to bottle/keg (seeing as thouhg you've stated its been like that for the past two days), depending upon what the recipe was... (havent really had a look in the rest of the post about it). I wouldve thought 1015 was a little high, but who knows B) 

Also, the bubbling in the airlock could just be escaping CO2 in the beer, not that its actually still fermenting. Always go by hyrdo readings over bubbling...


Sponge


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## TerritoryBrew (13/5/08)

Slurpdog said:


> Quachy
> 
> Welcome to the forums, and ditto what everyone else has said regarding online purchases from site sponsors.
> 
> ...



I think what Slurpdog was trying to say is that the sponsers are well worth your business.  I can attest as there is no LHBS here, my closest is 1500km away in either Darwin or Adelaide, unless there is one in Pt Augusta.

I know of one sponsor who was kind (and patient) enough to help me orgainse 75kg of grain to be sent to Darwin...


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## quachy (19/5/08)

Adventually got to 1012, stayed ther for 3 days and I bottled. The beer tasted OK, not fantastic, but drinkable. Beer in the bottles look very cloudy, been in bottles for 3 1/2 days. Carbonation seems a bit slow (has only been a few days granted). I read somewhere that if carbonation is low, then give them a shake and then let rest for another two weeks. Can anyone confirm this?

Not overly confident with this one, but maybe it will improve with time - lots of time perhaps. 

On a brighter note, doing a coopers stout at the moment with be2 and kit yeast. After a slow start (almost 48 hrs before any real action) it went nuts for two days now has slowed right down. Tasted and did a sg reading today 1016 down from 1050. Had a wicked taste! Can't wait to bottle age and drink and drink some more!

Coming up to my fifth brew after the stout. Have a cascade choc mahagany porter, cascade larger, coopers pale ale and coopers canadian blonde all in kit. Thinking of leaving the cascade larger until I get some real yeast. Was going to do the pale ale next with kit yeast and then later on do another pale ale with harvested yeast from coopers bottle to see difference. This homebrew thing is getting addictive!

Quachy

Quachy


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## boingk (19/5/08)

Nice work quachy! Good to hear everything is running along well for you. I wouldn't be too miffed at the bottles being 'slow' to carb - they usually take a week or so. I don't try my beer until its been in the bottle for two weeks [just leave it sitting, don't shake], and three weeks onwards will see a definite improvement in your beer as residual proteins and yeast sediment out and the bitterness mellows. Head retention also improves out of sight.

One suggestion for the Cascade Choc-Mohogany Porter kit that I like a lot is to add 1kg of Liquid Chocolate Malt to it as well as 500g honey. Failing that, try 1kg of Coopers Light Dried Malt as well as the honey. 

Also good to see you want to experiment with yeast - I think you'll be surprised at the difference between the two.

Cheers - boingk


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## itguy1953 (20/5/08)

quachy said:


> Barry, yeah can get cold here. Got the fermenter inside with a thick towel around it. Also got a digital thermometer which measures max/min temps stuck to the outside of the fermenter. The variance has been 19-22 degrees over the past 16 days. Will be moving to the garage next and will have to either use different yeast or buy a pad or belt heater. Npt sure which yet, any ideas?
> 
> Using the yeast cake, how does that work, do you just put ingredients directly over the top of the yeast cake or do you take a few spoonfulls and culture????? Please excuse the ignorance here
> 
> Quachy



What sugars did you use to add to the kit? Malt typically takes longer to ferment than sucrose (table sugar) or dextrose, and remember that only 80% of malt is fermentable. The remaining 20% gives the beer body, but also adds residual sweetness. You can reduce this sweetness ie. dry out the beer, by adding an enzyme (improzmye or modiferm). These enzymes break down the long chain sugars into smaller pieces that the yeast can ferment. 

If you have added a lot of malt, your final SG could be close to 1015. As it has been fermenting for so long now, I would carefully open the lid, put in a long handle sanitised plastic spoon, and give the yeast cake a good stir. Then seal up, and leave for another 4-5 days for the yeast to settle out. It should be finished then. 

If you think that the beer is still too sweet now, further fermentation will reduce this, but most likely you will need to add more bitterness to balance out the beer ie the bitterness to sweetness ratio. To do this, buy some isohops from your LHBS, and add 12 drops to 23 litres to increase the IBU by approx 6 units. Do this just after you stir up the yeast, as it takes 3-4 days to spread evenly throughout the brew.

While you are at you LHBS you could also buy a hop tea bag to add to the fermenter just after you stir it up. Add 12-25g of Saaz for a fantastic fragrance and flavour. Once you start adding hops like this, you will be hooked, as they add a new dimension to your beer. Another good hop to add in a tea bag is Amarillo. Only leave the tea bag in contact with the beer for a week, as after that you can start to get a grassy flavour in the beer.

Keep us up to date on how you are going.

Barry


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## itguy1953 (20/5/08)

Using the yeast cake, how does that work, do you just put ingredients directly over the top of the yeast cake or do you take a few spoonfulls and culture????? Please excuse the ignorance here 

Either method will work, but be careful when adding your water/wort to the yeast with temps. You should only add wort to yeast when it is under 25degC. If you add hotter wort to the yeast cake you will kill some/all of the yeast.

Best idea is to drain your old brew out of the primary fermenter into bottles/kegs, or even into plastic cubes for secondary fermentation/cold conditioning. Then you are left with a yeast cake approx 20mm thick on the bottom of the fermenter.

Make up your brew in another fermenter/bucket, adding your hot water to dissolve the extract and sugars, then the cold water to bring the temp down. Ideally the wort should be at room temp before adding it to the fermenter on top of the old yeast cake, but a few degrees above room temp will not matter. I have read that a high temp difference can shock the yeast. 

When you pour the wort into the fermenter, do it vigorously to both stir up the old yeast, and help aerate the wort. Seal up the fertmenter, and you should have bubbles within 2-3 hours, and vigorous fermentation within 8 hours. If you use this technique, the ferment will finish much quicker. 

A downside of reusing yeast cake like this, is if you had an infection in the original brew, you will get it in the new brew as well. To try and avoid this, make sure you taste the beer as you are taking SG's along the way, and see if you can detect any infection. At the slightest hint of infection, make sure you discard the old yeast cake, and start with a new one. You should be able to get several reuses of yeast cake before throwing it out.

Another effective way to get a good healthy slug of yeast into your brews is to bottle off the yeast cake into 2-3 stubbies. Add sugar to carbonate the beer, and put aside. Make sure you label it as yeast starter with the date and type of yeast. Discard after 6 months. Do not use the yeast until you have drunk some of the beer it made, and if you were not happy with the beer (ie. infection, funny tastes etc), discard the yeast.

Happy brewing

Barry


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## PhilS (29/5/08)

Cascade use xtal malt, wheat flour and sugar in their recipie. From memory they also use a belgium yeast strain and POR hops.

13C for fermenting, with an original of 10.5 plato


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