# Home made no rinse sanatizer.



## Dave70 (16/9/15)

Figure since I clean my gear with nappy wash these days, why not take it (down) to the next level.
Anybody made their own ghetto Starsan using iodine or phosphoric acid etc and not poisoned themselves?


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## Topher (16/9/15)

Interesting idea..... but Starsan is pretty cheap compared to pbw. Surely for under 20bucks a year its not worth the risk?


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## MHB (16/9/15)

Well think you would need to work out exactly what you wanted to make
Iodophos (under one of many trade names) is Iodine and Phosphoric Acid, to buy anymore than a couple of grams of I2 solution (or heaven forbid Iodine crystals) you will need to fill out an EUD (end user declaration) as the powers that be are going to be quietly confidant that you are using it to make Speed, or nerve gas and you are very likely to get a visit from the boys in blue.

Star San is Phosphoric acid and an industrial detergent, in either case the minimum quantity you will probable be able to buy is 20Kg of each and I would suggest you don't muck about with pure Phos acid unless you know what you are doing! It's also very expensive as industrial chemicals go.
Be very careful which surfactant you mix with strong acids, some of the reactions can be very entertaining (when viewed from a distance)

For years I was selling 5Kg jars of pure Sodium Percarbonate cheaper than no name nappy wash - it was rated for contact with food processing equipment, so a grade or two purer than poo in nappy quality and didn't contain 70% mystery filler. I'm pretty sure that if you asked around a couple of HBS's some one would do you a 20Kg bag for a very reasonable price (that's how I now buy mine), once upon a time I was getting 1/2 a pallet of Perk and 1/2 a pallet of Pink delivered together which worked out pretty well.


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## Dave70 (16/9/15)

Never used star san before didn't realize the dilution rate was such a minuscule 2 ml per liter. A 20 liter cube of it would certainly last a while diluted at 50%. 
I do like to buy in bulk where possible, but I think I'll draw the line at 4 metric tonnes of sanatizer.


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## manticle (16/9/15)

Just tip some coke in there mate. Then wee on it.

Or buy starsan.

Yes buy starsan.


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## real_beer (16/9/15)

Hot caustic soda is a steriliser, cheap, and breaks down okay for the environment.


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## GalBrew (16/9/15)

real_beer said:


> Hot caustic soda is a steriliser, cheap, and breaks down okay for the environment.


A tad dangerous though, when compared to starsan.


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## Burt de Ernie (16/9/15)

real_beer said:


> Hot caustic soda is a steriliser, cheap, and breaks down okay for the environment.


And turns your finger nails brown!


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

GalBrew said:


> A tad dangerous though, when compared to starsan.


Harden up

Things are only dangerous to stupid people


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Never used star san before


Blasphemer

Once upon a time, in a place far away from AHB, brewers used sanitisers other than Star-San...True story


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## Yob (16/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> 2 ml per liter. .


1.5ml

savings right there


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## Benn (16/9/15)

I'm thinking of giving Citric Acid a try until I get to a homebrew shop. I can't find unscented nappy san at the local supermarket. Even the plain home brand stuff is scented at the moment. It's stunk out my FV's. 
I'm just using boiling water to clean them for now.


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## real_beer (17/9/15)

GalBrew said:


> A tad dangerous though, when compared to starsan.


The thing is though that if someone wants to take things to the next level of saving money and being more efficient, hot caustic soda can be used as both a cleaner and sterliser. You can also leave it in your keg until your ready to refill it with beer.

Petrol, LPG, diesel, chainsaws, power tools, electricity are all dangerous in the wrong hands. I get much more worried by some of the scary questions asked by people trying to wire up electric elements in brew pots and such, than by a product that comes well labeled with usage and safety instructions on the container.

I use both caustic and Starsan and their both great products, I do believe though that for the length of time Starsan has been on the market they should have fitted the bottle with a ******* lid that doesn't split the top off when it's tightened shut. I have found the Coopers pet bottle lid is a good replacement for this problem.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

real_beer said:


> Petrol, LPG, diesel, chainsaws, power tools, electricity are all fun in the right hands.


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## real_beer (17/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> > Petrol, LPG, diesel, chainsaws, power tools, electricity are all fun in the right hands.


I posted this in the funny pics thread the other day :lol:


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## Dave70 (17/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Blasphemer
> 
> Once upon a time, in a place far away from AHB, brewers used sanitisers other than Star-San...True story


Ive been an idophor man for years and had zero issues with infection so obviously its time for a change..


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## yankinoz (17/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Ive been an idophor man for years and had zero issues with infection so obviously its time for a change..


Ditto, and have also used Defender, which is a non-foaming phosphoric acid/dispersing agent sanitiser.


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## Benn (17/9/15)

I wonder what the they used hundreds of years ago?


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## Dave70 (17/9/15)

Benn said:


> I wonder what the they used hundreds of years ago?


Witchcraft.


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## 2much2spend (17/9/15)

Sodium metabisilfate and citric acid is very potent. 
I also heard of 28ml of vinegar 28ml of bleach in 20ltrs was a cheap version of no rinse sanitiser.

But don't mix the bleach and vinegar without the water first, it turns in to a knockout gas.


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## real_beer (17/9/15)

Benn 'I wonder what the they used hundreds of years ago?'

One method was to drop hot stones into the cask and then roll it around.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

Up here you can buy bulk dairy sanitizer. They will even sell small 20ltr cubes of it.

Its good stuff. 

None of that fancy Star-San stuff


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## manticle (17/9/15)

Starsan is used as a dairy sanitiser. So is iodophor.
Fancy?
I have some in glenorchy which is about as fancy as haemorrhoids.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

manticle said:


> Starsan is used as a dairy sanitiser. S


But its not called Star-San


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## manticle (17/9/15)

Benn said:


> I wonder what the they used hundreds of years ago?


Sulphur candles.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

And they burnt witches


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## manticle (17/9/15)

Only if they weighed the same as a duck.


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## Danwood (17/9/15)

"And what else floats ?"

"Very small rocks, cherries, mud....churches !"


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDlaJ4Y8UXY


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## manticle (17/9/15)

Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

I am Arthur, King of the Bwittans


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## manticle (17/9/15)

King a' the 'oo?


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

Arthur: Well we all are! We are all Britons! And I am your king.
Woman: I didn't know we 'ad a king! I thought we were autonomous collective.
Man: (mad) You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship! A
self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
Woman: There you go, bringing class into it again...
Man: That's what it's all about! If only people would--
Arthur: Please, *please*, good people, I am in haste! WHO lives in that
castle?
Woman: No one lives there.


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## Mardoo (18/9/15)

And the topic fled in disgrace...chuckling to itself.

Stu, at what sort of establishment does one engage in witty repartee to obtain dairy sanitiser? 20 litres? I'll sanitise myself!


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Rural supply stores

http://www.norco.com.au/rural/


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## real_beer (18/9/15)

manticle said:


> Sulphur candles.


The Roman's used to use 'Roman Candles' which were later used as a great entertainment feature in 20th Century England on Bonfire night. They were a great crowd pleaser leading up to chucking Guy Fawkes on the pyre and setting him alight. Ahhhhhh! wonderful memories indeed. 

Disclaimer:
I haven't any proof that the Romans actually used 'Roman Candles too sterilise stuff, but it seems a reasonable conclusion to make inside my little brain. :beerbang:


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## Mardoo (18/9/15)

Holy crap. A lifetime of cleaner and sanitiser for $165.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Mardoo said:


> Holy crap. A lifetime of cleaner and sanitiser for $165.


$6.60/Lt v $48/Lt for Star-San ( from Craftbrewer )


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## Fents (18/9/15)

Mardoo said:


> Holy crap. A lifetime of cleaner and sanitiser for $165.


get yob involved and it will be cheaper again. he's a man who knows how to get 'stuff'


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## Grott (18/9/15)

"$6.60/Lt v $48/Lt for Star-San ( from Craftbrewer )​"

A few things to note I think. 1 litre of starsan make 667 litres and it is* re-usable*! many many times. You know it works, you can test it easily (eg litmus paper), its tasteless, can be used dry or wet. Also I can buy a small size which lasts for ages without a huge outlay.

For me ll stick with easy as starsan.
Cheers


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## Mardoo (18/9/15)

Contact time is another difference. 10 to 30 minutes for the dairy one. Not a huge issue for me.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Mardoo said:


> Contact time is another difference. 10 to 30 minutes for the dairy one. Not a huge issue for me.


A dairy is a lot dirtier than relatively clean brewing gear.

Most dairies I have been to are pretty dirty places, hence the longer contact time


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## sp0rk (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> $6.60/Lt v $48/Lt for Star-San ( from Craftbrewer )


Brewmasters Bulk Buy in the wings?



grott said:


> "$6.60/Lt v $48/Lt for Star-San ( from Craftbrewer )​"
> 
> A few things to note I think. 1 litre of starsan make 667 litres and it is* re-usable*! many many times. You know it works, you can test it easily (eg litmus paper), its tasteless, can be used dry or wet. Also I can buy a small size which lasts for ages without a huge outlay.
> 
> ...


PTSAN 5 is apparently good at 2ml per litre of water, which on our scale is that close to Starsan's dilution rate that it doesn't matter


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

grott said:


> "$6.60/Lt v $48/Lt for Star-San ( from Craftbrewer )​"
> 
> A few things to note I think. 1 litre of starsan make 667 litres and it is* re-usable*! many many times. You know it works, you can test it easily (eg litmus paper), its tasteless, can be used dry or wet. Also I can buy a small size which lasts for ages without a huge outlay.
> 
> ...


The dairy stuff also needs to be diluted and is re-usable in some cases

Just because Star-San works doesnt mean others wont

Bit like saying "I only use dried S-04 cause I know it works, dont want to use those other yeast"


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## Grott (18/9/15)

"Just because Star-San works doesnt mean others wont

Bit like saying "I only use dried S-04 cause I know it works, dont want to use those other yeast""


I'm not saying that, "a few things to note...."

I also use a product called GEMGUARD" that's used in the meat, brewery and other food processing industries. It is not for use where beer can contact but excellent for external equipment cleaning. (tops for kitchen use as well)
Cheers
​


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Well obviously you use a product that is suitable.....

I am just saying that Star-San is not THE only suitable sanitiser


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## Dave70 (18/9/15)

Mardoo said:


> Holy crap. A lifetime of cleaner and sanitiser for $165.


Thats what I'm talking about!

Plus I can be really wasteful and not give a ****.


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## Grott (18/9/15)

Have attached technical data sheet for PTSAN 5 for interest. The company advised that diluted contact with beer is ok, can not be reused and is to be made up as required. Another sanitiser alternative.
Cheers










View attachment T.D PTSAN 5_2pp_2014.pdf


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## Batz (18/9/15)

I have used a dairy sanitizer for over 10 years, I use this:

http://www.daviesway.com.au/all-products/eliminate.aspx?lv.crumb=73678

It's phos. acid.
I used to buy a 20lt container and split it up with several other brewers, the last time (must be 4 years ago, or so) I just kept it myself. I have been using it and never reusing, I can't even tell if any has been used from the 20lt as yet. It'll see my life out. 
It is used @ 2ml per 1lt. 20lt container is around $200.00 from memory.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Changing sanitizing chemicals regularly is never a bad thing.

And the old saying goes that if it isnt clean then you will never get it sanitized properly


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## booargy (18/9/15)

I make my own with sugar water and yeast


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## manticle (18/9/15)

You make your own sanitiser with wort?


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## booargy (18/9/15)

Ethanol diluted to 70% with distilled water you can even drink what you don't use


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## manticle (18/9/15)

Ah I see. 

Discussion of etc etc not condoned nor mumble, mumble.


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## Dave70 (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Changing sanitizing chemicals regularly is never a bad thing.
> 
> And the old saying goes that if it isnt clean then you will never get it sanitized properly


Old saying:

Deuteronomy 23:1
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Really? _really? _

Id rather do that piss and coke thing.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Well coke is phos acid and a bit of sugar


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## real_beer (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well coke is phos acid and a bit of sugar


Unless he means the coke you cut with a credit card and sniff with a straw? It would look strange going into a toilet with a glass or can of coke to piss in. However I think its normal practice to cut up coke and sniff it off the toilet seat lid, modern movies seem to bear witness to this.

As a home made sanitiser though?
One of the products is very very cheap (depending on what you've been drinking of course) and the other very expensive, and both of them would vary wildly with chemical consistency thus making them worthless to even consider for a moment as a viable option. And I must point out that I haven't even touched on the filthy public hygiene environment you'd be faced with during the manufacturing process! And what if the person contributing the urine was a real root rat? Even daily STD tests couldn't guarantee an acceptable product!

In summation it's just not worth even considering, it's too expensive, has poor product consistency and life threatening manufacturing facilities, also arrest by law enforcement officers is a real, real, real threat throughout the whole process!


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Is coke no rinse ?

I am hoping so. Certainly would make beer more interesting


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## Batz (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Changing sanitizing chemicals regularly is never a bad thing.
> 
> And the old saying goes that if it isnt clean then you will never get it sanitized properly


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## Tex N Oz (19/9/15)

I don't understand why everyone has moved away from iodophor and over to these acid sanitisers. 
Great marketing I guess?


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## Batz (19/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> I don't understand why everyone has moved away from iodophor and over to these acid sanitisers.
> Great marketing I guess?



Just something that happened 10 years ago or so.


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## Batz (19/9/15)

http://www.daviesway.com.au/all-products/iophos.aspx?lv.crumb=73678


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## Tex N Oz (19/9/15)

Batz said:


> http://www.daviesway.com.au/all-products/iophos.aspx?lv.crumb=73678


That's what I use!! It's hands down better than any acid based sanitiser out there. Here's a test anyone can do at home to see for themselves.

Grab a clean keg, put 1/2 litre of each type, swish around to fully wet all surfaces in and let sit for a few months. The ones with "Starsan or equivalent" will have mould growing anywhere the liquid isn't in contact with the surface.
The Iodophor keg will have NOTHING growing in it. Iodine off-gasses and kills everything in the keg. It never leaves. Phosphoric acid breaks and off-gasses phosphates which are perfect fertilisers for mould.

Sure it kills quick on contact and then feeds whatever is left behind.


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## Brewman_ (19/9/15)

Call me a fence sitter..

I use both. Nothing wrong with iodphos.

I always store equipment clean and dry. Ready for sanitation and use.


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## Tex N Oz (19/9/15)

Brewman_ said:


> I always store equipment clean and dry. Ready for sanitation and use.


I try to keep my kegs setting on sanitiser. Caught me out when I had a dozen mouldy kegs... Maybe dry is better but I'm a bit lazy.. :mellow:


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## Grott (20/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> Grab a clean keg,......................and let sit for a few months.


Not a problem at my place, kegs have to be "value added". An empty keg is no good to me. 
I do take your point though and find the experiment interesting.
Cheers




Tex N Oz said:


> That's what I use!! It's hands down better than any acid based sanitiser out there. Here's a test anyone can do at home to see for themselves.
> 
> Grab a clean keg, put 1/2 litre of each type, swish around to fully wet all surfaces in and let sit for a few months. The ones with "Starsan or equivalent" will have mould growing anywhere the liquid isn't in contact with the surface.
> The Iodophor keg will have NOTHING growing in it. Iodine off-gasses and kills everything in the keg. It never leaves. Phosphoric acid breaks and off-gasses phosphates which are perfect fertilisers for mould.
> ...


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## Tex N Oz (20/9/15)

grott said:


> Not a problem at my place, kegs have to be "value added". An empty keg is no good to me.


I have the opposite problem. All empty kegs and nothing "value added".. I think I'm the only one who drinks half the beer out of the fermenter before it's even settled the yeast. :unsure: :wacko:


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## S.E (20/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> I think I'm the only one who drinks half the beer out of the fermenter before it's even settled the yeast. :unsure: :wacko:


No you’re not! I often do that if I’ve run out of beer before the next brew/cask day. What’s worse is I also use a scoop of yeast from the bottom of the fermenter for the next batch after doing it. h34r:


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## Grott (20/9/15)

Pair of fellow piss pots in Tex N Oz & S.E. 
Cheers


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## manticle (20/9/15)

I support them in their important roles


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## TheWiggman (20/9/15)

Brewman_ said:


> Call me a fence sitter..
> 
> I use both. Nothing wrong with iodphos.
> 
> I always store equipment clean and dry. Ready for sanitation and use.


OT but curious about this. I put about 100ml of Star San in fermenters and cubes before storing them. Give them a good sloshing around before leaving them on the shelf. Is this bad practice?


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## Tex N Oz (20/9/15)

I'm in good company then!! 
Helps lift the guilt of having 25 of my 30 bottles end up lonely and unfulfilled. Knowing full well it would have been an awesome beer if left a few weeks to finish....



S.E said:


> What’s worse is I also use a scoop of yeast from the bottom of the fermenter for the next batch after doing it. h34r:


Can't count the number of times I've done that.. Heaps easier than a new starter....... even if it's not the right yeast.... guilty again..
But then again, the guys I drink with would think a shot of vodka in a glass of Milo = Fine chocolate stout.


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## Tex N Oz (20/9/15)

TheWiggman said:


> OT but curious about this. I put about 100ml of Star San in fermenters and cubes before storing them. Give them a good sloshing around before leaving them on the shelf. Is this bad practice?


It's been my experience that it's not a good idea. I've had a lot of stuff grow in that environment.


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## Grott (20/9/15)

"But then again, the guys I drink with would think a shot of vodka in a glass of Milo = Fine chocolate stout."​ - quote Tex N Oz.

Is Baulkham Hills a very stranger place???


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## S.E (20/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> I'm in good company then!!
> Helps lift the guilt of having 25 of my 30 bottles end up lonely and unfulfilled. Knowing full well it would have been an awesome beer if left a few weeks to finish....


[SIZE=10pt]Actually some beers are best consumed young and as soon out of the fermenter as possible. Green King IPA springs to mind as a prime example of this. Though as the name would suggest it is not an IPA at all, but just a low ABV hoppy ale.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]It’s pretty average most of the time but if you get it really fresh it’s a decent drop. I think it won a CAMRA award one year much to the disgust of many, so I presume it was a fresh cask that was being judged.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I honed my brewing skills helping out in a micro brewery and the head brewer insisted that sampling the brew at all stages is important. So it wasn’t unusual to be sampling a beer straight from the FV while mashing in at 7am. [/SIZE]


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## Tex N Oz (20/9/15)

grott said:


> "But then again, the guys I drink with would think a shot of vodka in a glass of Milo = Fine chocolate stout."​ - quote Tex N Oz.
> 
> Is Baulkham Hills a very stranger place???


Nooooooo.. Baulkham Hills is fine and absolutely chockablock full of pompous pricks if you look close.... but my closest mates are by most standard definition, bogans, dags and/or drongos.. 

With that said, they are:
1. Loyal to a fault
2. 24/7/365 friends come good times or bad
3. Never pretentious or audacious
4. Drink whatever beer you've got in the keg, even if it's total shit, and compliment you on your efforts.
5. Hand you a cold beer any time you walk through their doors and are happy to see you.

Good enough for me.. but probably not a reflection of "The Baulkos"


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## Grott (20/9/15)

In that case, you can all have a beer at my place anytime.
Cheers

(and sorry off topic)


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## QldKev (21/9/15)

Batz said:


> I have used a dairy sanitizer for over 10 years, I use this:
> 
> http://www.daviesway.com.au/all-products/eliminate.aspx?lv.crumb=73678
> 
> ...


Do you use that no-rinse?


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## Batz (21/9/15)

QldKev said:


> Do you use that no-rinse?


Yes Kev.


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## Brewman_ (23/9/15)

TheWiggman said:


> OT but curious about this. I put about 100ml of Star San in fermenters and cubes before storing them. Give them a good sloshing around before leaving them on the shelf. Is this bad practice?


Hi TheWiggman,

I don't think it's bad practice to do that and drain and dry.

I would not do that If I were to store them. A couple of reasons.

1. The sanitiser will only have a contact with a very small surface once settles and the bubbles have dried off, so I don't think it is effective while the sanitiser itself is an effective sanitiser.
2. How long is the storage and how long is diluted sanitiser, actually an effective sanitiser? They do degrade. On this first point I have a couple of kegs that have not been used since 2012. I didn't know they would be out of use that long when I stored them.. Things don't always go to plan.


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