# Late Hopping And No Chilling Guide



## argon (20/6/11)

Late Hopping and No Chilling Guide - everyone likes a guide with photos

Further to the thread Late Hopping And Nochilling… It Can Be Done! I’ve decided to document the process for an AIPA.

What I want to do is utilise the no chill method for packaging my wort on brewday. This allows me the flexibility to pitch the yeast whenever my brewhouse is ready… be it fermentor space, yeast preparation or just because I had some free time one day and decided to brew. However in my experience, I don’t get as much aroma as I would like from the late hop kettle additions, especially when I want very hoppy beers. 

I’ve tried different methods in the past, hop teas, French press and just adding heaps of dry hops to accommodate for this lack of hoppiness in my no chilled beers. But I’ve never been able to achieve that true late kettle hop profile of big aroma and flavour. So what to do?… sure I could just rapidly chill my wort on brewday, then immediately pitch yeast… but this doesn’t afford me the flexibility that no chill gives. 

So, why not add the late hopping kettle additions after no chilling and before pitching the yeast?

The following is an outline of what I do to try and replicate that big hoppy late kettle flavour and aroma.

First I no chill my wort into a sanitised cube… for reference of how this is done, read here 

Now that I have successfully cubed my wort, I have 21L American IPA.




01 Photo – full cube of wort

I put the wort in the fridge to drop the temp down to 4C. Typically overnight in the fridge is enough to get it down from ambient temps. 4C being typical fridge temps that can be achieved easily enough, even without a separate temp controller.

I now have 21L of wort at 4C… but I want to pitch a WY1056 yeast starter I have at 18C in order to have a healthy ferment at appropriate temperatures for this yeast.



02 Photo – yeast starter

What I need to do now, in order to both add my late hops and add my yeast, is firstly make a couple of quick calculations. I’ve found a couple of water temp adjustment calculators online… here’s one 

According to the calculator, I need to bring 3L of wort up to boiling then add it to 17L of 4C wort to achieve an approximate temperature of 18C. It's worth noting that i drop a few degrees off the hot portion when doing the calculations...as it loses heat very swiftly after flameout... 94C is about right for the purpose of the calculator.

Before starting I clean and sanitise a fermentor and lid as usual prior to pitching wort and yeast. I then keep this in the fermentation fridge with my temp controller set to my desired fermentation temperature. I typically use clingwrap to cover my fermentors, however I still have the lids they came with. These do not have a hole drilled in them. For what I am doing it’s important to have a solid sealed lid. I want it sealed and solid as I want to keep the fermentor sealed for a short period prior to pitching and the temp swings I’m dealing with may compromise the integrity of the clingwrap. After pitching I will discard the lid and use the clingwrap to seal the fermentor.



03 Photo – fermentor 

For this recipe I need to add 20g of simcoe and 20g of Cascade as my flameout additions. I use a loose weave large bag in the boil to allow the hops to move around a little, but still allow me to remove them before adding the contents of the stockpot into the fermentor.



04 Photo - Weighing out hops


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## argon (20/6/11)

Now I take my wort out of the fridge and pour the contents of the cube into the clean and sanitised fermentor, ensuring plenty of splashing for maximum aeration. I cube hopped this one too. As you can see there is quite a bit of break and hop material in the cube. I typically try and keep this out of the fermentor… but a little is no problem.



05 Photo – Pouring in wort

Once filled I draw off 3L of wort ready to be boiled.



06 Photo – Drawing off 3L... as Palmer said a little wort has to be spilled to be a good brew day!

Once I’ve drawn off the wort I put the fermenter back in the fridge. Keeping it sealed and at 4C in the fridge for the minimal time it takes prior to adding to the fermentor and pitching the yeast presents a very small risk. At 4C most contaminants are mostly dormant and have very little time to infect the wort. However be as vigilant as possible to minimise exposure to anything that may be lurking around.

Now pour the wort into the stockpot and bring the 3L of wort to the boil.



07 Photo – 3L boiling

Stockpot with 3L on the Rambo does not take long to boil. Less than 5mins. Of course this could be done on the stovetop, but I would imagine would take a touch longer to come to boil.

Now I add my late hop additions… which I leave for the appropriate time I need, before flameout. In this case, my recipe calls for a 0 min addition. 



08 Photo – hops in bag going into boiling wort.


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## argon (20/6/11)

I typically let the wort boil for around 5mins before flameout. This tends to be enough time for any volatile oils within the pellets to solubilise into the wort. 



09 Photo – hops in bag being removed at flameout.

Immediately after flameout I open the fermentor and pour in the entire contents of the stockpot topping up to approx 20L after boil losses.

(As much as I’d love to add a photo of me pouring in the boiling hot wort into the fermentor… the logistics and safety factor preventing me from doing so… I’m sure we all know what it looks like)

Lid goes on fermentor and the fermentor given a quick swirl and shake to ensure proper mixing of the two worts at differing temperatures, avoiding stratification and with the added benefit of further aeration. I continue to do this and check the temperature until I’m satisfied that I’m at the targeted temperature range of 18C. As long as I’m in the appropriate range for pitching the yeast (i.e. + or – 1 or 2C) I go ahead and pitch my decanted starter slurry.



10 Photo – Adding decanted starter slurry

Now I add my clingwrap and return to fermentation fridge at my targeted temperature and await vigourous fermentation.



11 Photo – full fermentor in fermentation fridge at 18C

18.2C… not bad

Job complete… clean up and pour myself a beer.



12 Photo - fresh poured beer 

I’ve done this a few times now… and while more effort than chilling on brew day, I maintain the flexibility that no chilling gives me, while giving me a hop profile that I enjoy. All in all process took me about 45mins from prep to cleaning. Worth the effort in my opinion.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## .DJ. (20/6/11)

Do you adjust your IBU's on you original receipe for the 5 minutes the hops are exposed to near boiling wort? I assume this could be an issue if using high AA hops such as Simcoe/Galaxy/Citra...
Or do you find the increased IBU negligible?


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## argon (20/6/11)

.DJ. said:


> Do you adjust your IBU's on you original receipe for the 5 minutes the hops are exposed to near boiling wort? I assume this could be an issue if using high AA hops such as Simcoe/Galaxy/Citra...
> Or do you find the increased IBU negligible?



No i don't adjust the IBUs... for a couple of reasons;

1. I'm only boiling 3L of the main wort, which equates to around 15% of the total volume of the batch. So this means i'm applying heat to 15% of the hops already in the wort. Boiling this small portion for a very short time and chilling super rapidly will add the tiniest amount of bitterness. I consider it so insignificant that it's not really worth noting.

2. Also, I consider the quick 5 min boil of the late hops a flameout addition. I reckon it's even faster than what would normally be considered a kettle flameout addition. More akin to a hopback. The hop oils are really only in a range of isomerisation for about 5mins. For example, in a regular batch, i wait longer than 10mins before i whirlpool. The amount of bitterness that this would add is probably very insignificant also... maybe with the Simcoe and Cascade addition it'd be worth about 1 or 2 IBU... hardly perceptible in an IPA already estimated at 75IBU.


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## [email protected] (20/6/11)

argon said:


> No i don't adjust the IBUs... for a couple of reasons;
> 
> 1. I'm only boiling 3L of the main wort, which equates to around 15% of the total volume of the batch. So this means i'm applying heat to 15% of the hops already in the wort. Boiling this small portion for a very short time and chilling super rapidly will add the tiniest amount of bitterness. I consider it so insignificant that it's not really worth noting.



This statement is not quite correct. You will extract the same IBUs for the final mix as if you are adding the hop addition to the total volume at flame out due to the higher g/L. for example if added 20 g to 20L = 1g/L as opposed to 20g to 3L = 6.7 g/L will give higher IBUs in the 3L by the same factor as the g/L. To calculate the IBU contribution treat it the same as if you calculate the addition normally. 

As Argon says this amount of IBUs is not really a problem for AIPAs etc which already have a high hop load. However, you will need to allow for it if doing a high hop aroma/ low IBU beer with high AA acid hops. e.g. Stone and Wood Pacific Ale which is only 20IBUs total but big late hop additions of Galaxy.


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## keifer33 (20/6/11)

I'm fairly sure the question was based on the hops already in the wort ie cube hops/bittering hops adding a tiny bit more bitterness as its being reboiled.


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## argon (20/6/11)

well you're right... just did a couple of quick crude calculations with a few assumptions.
Works out like this;

Wort 1 = 17L of 75IBU @1059OG
Wort 2 = 3L of 75IBU then boiled 5 mins then 40g of hops added.
Beersmith tells me that boiling 3L of 75IBU Wort 5mins longer gives me an extra 1.64IBU = 76.4IBU @1059OG

Now, when i add the 20g Cascade and 20g Simcoe for another 5 mins the wort becomes = 118.3 IBU (assumed 5 min addition... i actually think it's much less than this in reality, but for calculation sake i'll take 5 mins)

So now i have 2 worts;

Wort 1 = 17L of 75IBU = 85% of total volume
Wort 2 = 3L of 118.3IBU = 15% of total volume

When i add the two together using this formula;

[(x proportion of total blended volume) x (IBUs) for beer 1] + [(x proportion of total blended volume) x (IBUs) for beer 2]

[85% x 75] + [15% x 118.3] = 63.75 + 17.55 = 81.495IBU

So i've picked up an extra 6.5IBU... looks like it's much more significant than i first thought.

However, If i were to consider it similar to a 1 min addition per se, then the total final IBU would be 76.395 IBU... hardly worth mentioning.


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## [email protected] (20/6/11)

Agree that the flameout adds minimal IBUs. Yes it doesn't make much of difference with an AIPA but 6 ibus or so but for a low IBU beer you will need to adjust a little.

For example I do a Stone and Wood clone using this technique and when doing 10 min and flameout I end up with half the IBUs coming from the late additions in the 3L boil.


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## Bribie G (20/6/11)

The thing about the IBU's is that using the Argon Method for late hopping, you can actually completely omit the 10 minute addition from the original boil, as well as the flameout addition. Just do the 10 minute boil _after_ the no-chill using some wort from the cube, and the flamout addition can be just that, stir the pellets into the boiling wort then pitch immediately into the cold wort in the fermenter. So the final IBUs should turn out the same as doing it all in the main boil then plate / coil chilling. 

Now, not wanting to steal Argon's thunder, but another method this time of year when you can get the cube down to say 18 overnight with no problems plus a bit of a nudge in the fridge if necessary, is do the short boil in the stockpot and chill that in the laundry sink quickly to 18 as well then mix n pitch. 

That way you aren't using kws of electricity to drag a whole cube down to 4 degrees. and the few L in the stockpot can be chilled quite quickly.


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## itmechanic (20/6/11)

argon said:


> I typically let the wort boil for around 5mins before flameout. This tends to be enough time for any volatile oils within the pellets to solubilise into the wort.
> 
> View attachment 46542
> 
> ...



Great article mate, but where did you get your tap badge holders from?
Cheers,
Paul


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## argon (20/6/11)

itmechanic said:


> Great article mate, but where did you get your tap badge holders from?
> Cheers,
> Paul




Craftbrewers Decal Tap/Font


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## itmechanic (20/6/11)

Nice one, thanks mate.


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## [email protected] (20/6/11)

BribieG said:


> The thing about the IBU's is that using the Argon Method for late hopping, you can actually completely omit the 10 minute addition from the original boil, as well as the flameout addition. Just do the 10 minute boil _after_ the no-chill using some wort from the cube, and the flamout addition can be just that, stir the pellets into the boiling wort then pitch immediately into the cold wort in the fermenter. So the final IBUs should turn out the same as doing it all in the main boil then plate / coil chilling.




Thanks Bribie as that was what I was getting at. There will be IBU contributions that need to be considered if doing anything more than a flame out addition.


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## felten (21/6/11)

Cheers Argon for the great idea, I've started to use this method for my late hop additions. I haven't quite nailed reaching the proper temperature after mixing, but I try to aim for the low side of my pitching temp and just let it warm up from there.

It feels a little wasteful only having the hops boiling for a few minutes and then dumping them though, I'm thinking about leaving the hops to steep for a while after flameout, maybe it would better mimic a flameout addition, what do you reckon?
Commercial breweries can take a few hours to whirlpool and chill their beers after FO, so it shouldn't do any harm right? :blink:


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## Wolfy (21/6/11)

felten said:


> Commercial breweries can take a few hours to whirlpool and chill their beers after FO, so it shouldn't do any harm right? :blink:


But don't many also use a hop-back and then immediate-inline-chilling?


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## felten (21/6/11)

IIRC on the interviews I've listened to I would say the use of a hopback is in the minority, but I know a lot do make use of whirlpool additions which would sit in the WP vessel for quite a while before going through the chiller.

I get what you're saying though, immediate chilling is supposed to lock in the fresh hop aroma. Maybe there is merit in trying both methods.


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## argon (21/6/11)

felten said:


> I get what you're saying though, immediate chilling is supposed to lock in the fresh hop aroma. Maybe there is merit in trying both methods.


Certainly give it a go with extended or differing times. It'd be interesting to document the difference it makes with varying boiling/steeping times before chilling. In this example I only let the boil go for 5 mins and then chilled, as i was primarily after aroma with a little flavour in an effort to compensate for no chill. (which I will be following with a heap of dryhops) I would guess that more flavor and bitterness would be extracted the longer I let it boil. It'd be nice to find a good balance in there. All depends on what you want really.


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## ekul (21/6/11)

I wonder if you could do all the hop additions later? (although apparently the hopped wort in the cube prevents botu... nevermind ).
If you had the equipment to large batches you could just do a light bittering addition, boil for an hour and then cube.

Then you could have the convenience of extract with the tastiness and price of all grain. Just open up you stock standard cube, steep a little crystal, add some hops. If you had a large pot (140L+) you could essentially have 4 completely different brews. I don't think i would ever go to this much effort, but its an interesting idea.


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## jacknohe (21/6/11)

Thanks Argon. I've been following (lurking) your "No Chill" posts and findings for some time. I've experienced the same issue of no or very little aroma with the no chill approach. I've usually just steered away from particular styles that had Flameout additions. A good dry hopping usually provided some decent aromas.



BribieG said:


> Now, not wanting to steal Argon's thunder, but another method this time of year when you can get the cube down to say 18 overnight with no problems plus a bit of a nudge in the fridge if necessary, is do the short boil in the stockpot and chill that in the laundry sink quickly to 18 as well then mix n pitch.



I've been thinking of doing something similar to this for awhile. I'm thinking of using a "Mini-Cube" of 2-3L in size. Drawing off hot wort at flameout into the mini-cube, adding my flameout hops and put the cap on, and crash chilling it in an ice bath. I'm not sure how long it will take to cool down. However, I wouldn't add the wort in the mini-cube to the fermenter with the remainder of the wort until the next day. Can anyone see any issues with this? Anyone tried it?


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## [email protected] (21/6/11)

Thanks for the thread Argon and yes pictures are always good.

Anyway this has got me thinking about my process and how i could use this if i was so inclined.
Thats what i like about things like this, get thinking outside the square and give people options.

I am very happy with my sanitation and the area i brew in, i have done a few wort stability tests on last couple of brews 
from kettle pre chill and post chilling (13L in pot , ice/sink). 3 weeks later the samples are still good, very clear as any break has settled to the bottom smell malty and hoppy.

I usually, not always - if i am feeling lazy- recover 2L or so of wort from my trub post boil and give a quick reboil in small SS saucepan then chill which is a piece of piss, and add to fermenter.

So this has got me thinking i could just do a 60min bittering addition, leave the pot covered and wrapped in cling film, which i do anyway while chilling, let it sit overnight to slow or no chill, then transfer to fermenter next day, still pitch my yeast, then recover my 2L from the trub , reboil for 5 or 10mins depending hop additions, calculate it all using beersmith and the arithmetic provided in this thread. Chill it down to same temp as fermenter and add.

Anyone see why this would not work? I have the chilling of the whole pot of wort in ice/water down to a fine art, but it really is tiresome, i think it would be nicer just to set and forget.


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## Jace89 (28/6/11)

Just thought I'd say a big thanks for posting this method!
I've been making English ales and have found that I cant quite get that hop aroma that some of them have. Having no way of cooling my beer ive always just "no-chilled" without knowing really that it wasn't normal

So last night I brewed batch of what I'm hoping to be a very hop driven Aussie PA, using large amounts of Galaxy for bittering. I decided I wanted 30mins addition and decided to do this with 15mins left in my main boil. Having tasted it just now im very happy with the outcome 

Am about to start the mini boil for the late hop additions now and cant wait to report back with how it turned out after fermentation, and pouring out of may taps!

-Jace


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## ekul (28/6/11)

very soon i will be trying a recipe where the wort is barely hopped (maybe 3 ibus) and then cubed. I will then chill the cube (as per argons method) and then do a post cube boil. I've been playing around with a stone and wood inspired beer of late. Its tasting pretty good but i reckon adding all the hops in the last 10mins and then rapidly chilling is the go, something i can't achieve with nochill.


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## Lecterfan (17/7/11)

ekul said:


> very soon i will be trying a recipe where the wort is barely hopped (maybe 3 ibus) and then cubed. I will then chill the cube (as per argons method) and then do a post cube boil. I've been playing around with a stone and wood inspired beer of late. Its tasting pretty good but i reckon adding all the hops in the last 10mins and then rapidly chilling is the go, something i can't achieve with nochill.



How did this go ekul?

I'm interested in moving to no-chill eventually, and the idea of taking 5-10L of wort the next day, getting to the boil and then doing any 15, 10, 5 and 0min hop additions  - including for major bittering additions and using beersmith to work out the overall result between the two worts (given that with my current methods I can chill 5-10L of wort down to 15c in about 20mins with an ice bath and changing the water - assuming that I haven't fridged my cube like Argon does in this original thread and that it settles out an ambient 15c or something in the backporch).

This idea gets sexier the more I think about it, I assume this method (and variations) is now becoming standard practice for no chill?


edit: it was the 10 min IPA no chill that got me excited by this idea instead of experimenting with changing times and calculations on software to correspond to cube hopping etc. :icon_cheers:


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## argon (17/7/11)

Bit of an update on this. The beer I was doing in the photos in the article has turned out really great, with a big aroma and very hoppy flavour. Simcoe/Chinook/Cascade is very mice. It's an AIPA and has been selected as one of the finalists in the BABBs Archive IPA comp... so must be ok.unfortunately didn't enter it in the BABBs annual comp, so won't be getting formal feedback. Must remember to put it in QABC though.

Certainly the effort of applying this method has paid off.


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## Jace89 (18/7/11)

Update: I kegged the beer I was talking about in my older post and its turned out great! In fact it was smelling so good I didn't even bother dry hopping,
Thanks again for this method I'll be doing this every batch from here onwards


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## Deebo (18/7/11)

Assuming I am really lazy.. would putting a litre of wort in a kettle to bring to the boil then french pressing with hops be noticeably different that just french pressing with boiling water? (I have read some people add some dme when french pressing to help extract.. hop stuff)


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## Guysmiley54 (18/7/11)

Jace said:


> Update: I kegged the beer I was talking about in my older post and its turned out great! In fact it was smelling so good I didn't even bother dry hopping,
> Thanks again for this method I'll be doing this every batch from here onwards



I have been doing this for a while too but with from time to time trying a twist...

Towards the end of my main boil, I take 3L of wort from my main kettle and put it in a small SS pot. I then continue to boil and add my late additions in the smaller pot. I NC the main portion of my wort and chill the smaller one in the sink, pour it into a 3L pet bottle and add my rehydrated yeast (or starter depending on what I'm using)

The next morning I pour the starter and cube into my fermenter and walk away. Then swmbo yells at me and I come back and clean up the mess 

Main advantages:
- Active healthy starter made of the same wort as the rest of the beer.
- One boil only
- No messing around with trying to mix to temps together

I have mentioned this idea on the forum before and some criticised that the starter would strip alot of flavour out of the hops. I really don't find this to be true. In any case, the volatile hop oils and aroma will be sitting through an entire primary fermentation session anyway!

ymmv


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## big78sam (18/7/11)

Deebo said:


> Assuming I am really lazy.. would putting a litre of wort in a kettle to bring to the boil then french pressing with hops be noticeably different that just french pressing with boiling water? (I have read some people add some dme when french pressing to help extract.. hop stuff)



I did this last night as I had overshot my volumes and had too much wort. I didn't want to add another 1.5 litres of water so just used wort straight from the cube. I boiled it up in a pot on the stove top and did my late additions, then into the coffee plunger and into the fermentor. 

It seemed to go OK but only time will tell...


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## Bada Bing Brewery (18/7/11)

Guysmiley - I might give that a crack. Seems simple and logical to me - I like simple...
Cheers
BBB


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## Guysmiley54 (18/7/11)

Simple is the name of the game with no chill I reckon! If you do give it a crack, let me know how it goes for you. I'm keen to get some more opinions on this one.



Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Guysmiley - I might give that a crack. Seems simple and logical to me - I like simple...
> Cheers
> BBB


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## tipsy (21/7/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I have been doing this for a while too but with from time to time trying a twist...
> 
> Towards the end of my main boil, I take 3L of wort from my main kettle and put it in a small SS pot. I then continue to boil and add my late additions in the smaller pot. I NC the main portion of my wort and chill the smaller one in the sink, pour it into a 3L pet bottle and add my rehydrated yeast (or starter depending on what I'm using)
> 
> ...



I've been thinking of doing this for some time as well.
Good to see someone has done it with good results.


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## ekul (19/10/11)

After tasting some chilled beers the other day at craftbrewer i decided i would bust out the immersion chiller for a batch. However i couldn't find it so i decided to do the argon method. I made Ross's Nelson summer ale but ommitted all the hop additions bar the bittering. Once the fermenting fridge is empty i will be doing the 20 min and onward additions.
Has anyone tried just using malt extract for the hop boil? If only a litre or two of 1040 wort was used do you think it would make much difference to the malt profile? I spose the cube has to be chilled anyway so its neither here nor there what wort is used, except when it comes to flavour.


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## argon (19/10/11)

I did it the first time i did this. Although it was with a 7.5% Black IPA, so the extract was probably masked by alot of other flavours. I probably wouldn't do it for a paler less bold beer. Second time i did it, was with a mini-mash including a bunch of specialty grain, what worked pretty well too. If i didn't want to open the cube and do it that way, i'd go the mini-mash/steeping route.


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## MarkBastard (19/10/11)

It's an interesting question.

I've been thinking if you had say a mate with a 200L brewery and he let you borrow it from time to time, you could punch out 10 cubes of wort that were just a basic American Pale Ale base with a neutral bittering hop and NO late hops.

Now that you have these 10 cubes you could use the argon method to very easily make some different pale ales by varying the hop types and hop amounts, and you could even go as far as steeping a small amount of additional spec grain and adding that too.

I guess this could be handy for people that are very time poor and like to have some variation in the same overall broad style.

Or I guess you could take it even further and make heaps of cubes of the most generic wort possible, say all base mount and with the cleanest bittering hop possible at 20 IBU and about a gravity of 1.045, then make almost any recipe you want to by only steeping or doing small partial mashes plus late hop boils.

I personally wouldn't bother with this but I do find it interesting.


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## Dazza88 (19/10/11)

I was wondering if you did a 2 litre boil for late hops etc and cooled and added late in fermentation it that would conserve more hops aroma etc?

Also thinking if i could french press with water and gelantine at the same time as well.


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## stux (19/10/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> It's an interesting question.
> 
> I've been thinking if you had say a mate with a 200L brewery and he let you borrow it from time to time, you could punch out 10 cubes of wort that were just a basic American Pale Ale base with a neutral bittering hop and NO late hops.
> 
> ...



You mean like these?

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/advanced_s...amp;x=0&y=0


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## Logman (22/10/11)

I did the LFPA yesterday, smelt fantastic, going in today. Putting the cube in the fridge is out for me, there's usually a fermenter in there already. Filled a 15 litre cube and put the rest in a pot and did the late hopping in there as described above. That went into a 5 litre cube, cooled in an cold tub, then in the fridge for a while. That's a really easy way to go for sure while you've got all of your gear set up and cooling a 5 litre cube quickly is a snack. Will do this for most brews for sure.

:icon_cheers:


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## OneEye (8/11/11)

ekul said:


> After tasting some chilled beers the other day at craftbrewer i decided i would bust out the immersion chiller for a batch. However i couldn't find it so i decided to do the argon method. I made Ross's Nelson summer ale but ommitted all the hop additions bar the bittering. Once the fermenting fridge is empty i will be doing the 20 min and onward additions.
> Has anyone tried just using malt extract for the hop boil? If only a litre or two of 1040 wort was used do you think it would make much difference to the malt profile? I spose the cube has to be chilled anyway so its neither here nor there what wort is used, except when it comes to flavour.




Hey ekul, Did you get a chance to do this yet? Would love to know how you went. I did a NC version of Ross's Nelson Summer Ale and it came out very bitter. I didn't adjust the hop additions at all as I had read that some people found the difference neglible but this last batch of mine is tasting like cats piss haha
I'm thinking this method might be the way to go with recipe's that include a lot of late hop additions


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## Mayor of Mildura (8/11/11)

moosebeer said:


> Hey ekul, Did you get a chance to do this yet? Would love to know how you went. I did a NC version of Ross's Nelson Summer Ale and it came out very bitter. I didn't adjust the hop additions at all as I had read that some people found the difference neglible but this last batch of mine is tasting like cats piss haha
> I'm thinking this method might be the way to go with recipe's that include a lot of late hop additions


Interesting observation there. I have also found the same thing especially with a high aa hop like Nelson. If I were making this recipe I'd either be going argon style or cube hope and hop tea.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/11/11)

Nelson wouldn't deal with no-chill, unless it was a flameout or cube addition. At best, it'd be 10 minutes from flameout, but no more.

I've only done 3 no chills (I generally chill), but I know what Nelson does too long - it's got a real tea harsh bitterness if used too long.

However, as a late hop addition it works fantastically.

Goomba


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## stux (8/11/11)

mayor of mildura said:


> Interesting observation there. I have also found the same thing especially with a high aa hop like Nelson. If I were making this recipe I'd either be going argon style or cube hope and hop tea.



I just made an cube of this NS Ale.

I changed the 80 min to 60 min, then to 75 min 

then I added everything 15 minutes later.

The 5 minute hops I cube-hopped. and the whirlpool hops will by french pressed

As opposed to my first batch, which I just did normally, but it was a little bit too bitter, and lacking in aroma into the fermenter, so I french pressed the last addition... again.

That one was lovely... except the overt bitterness.


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## Mayor of Mildura (8/11/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Nelson wouldn't deal with no-chill, unless it was a flameout or cube addition. At best, it'd be 10 minutes from flameout, but no more.
> 
> I've only done 3 no chills (I generally chill), but I know what Nelson does too long - it's got a real tea harsh bitterness if used too long.
> 
> ...


As an experiment I made an all Nelson Pilsner (no chilled). Bittering addition, 30 minute addition and cube. Beer turned out awesome. I was quite surprised. I think the key to Nelson is to be careful with early additions as the iboo's can sneak up on you. In this instance the bittering addition was small (12 ibu) 30 minute (15 ibu) and cube (19 ibu by my patented iboo calculation).


Cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/11/11)

mayor of mildura said:


> As an experiment I made an all Nelson Pilsner (no chilled). Bittering addition, 30 minute addition and cube. Beer turned out awesome. I was quite surprised. I think the key to Nelson is to be careful with early additions as the iboo's can sneak up on you. In this instance the bittering addition was small (12 ibu) 30 minute (15 ibu) and cube (19 ibu by my patented iboo calculation).
> 
> 
> Cheers



100% agree. I generally avoid 60 minute additions and the one successful 60 min I've had with Nelson was approx 10IBU worth, so not much.

I generally add it either as a 30 minute bittering addition and 10 min flavour addition. Works well as a dry hopper as well.

Nelson is a hop that needs care - done well, it's fantastic. Done poorly it's as nasty as those birds on "All Worked Up".

Goomba


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## Gar (8/11/11)

Put down my first no-chill beer today, I hope the results are good because it makes for such a cruisy brewday, had the whole thing done, dusted and cleaned by lunchtime :beerbang: 

Amazing how long these 25L cubes hold the heat, its nearly five and its still quite warm


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## Mayor of Mildura (8/11/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Done poorly it's as nasty as those birds on "All Worked Up".
> 
> Goomba


 :lol: I had to google that.


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## OneEye (8/11/11)

mayor of mildura said:


> Interesting observation there. I have also found the same thing especially with a high aa hop like Nelson. If I were making this recipe I'd either be going argon style or cube hope and hop tea.



Yeah I'm pretty sure it must have something to do with the high AA% hops. I did a NoChill Pumpkin Ale bittered with Hallertau but didn't notice a big difference but two that Ive done with Nelson and then Galaxy have come out almost undrinkable. All part of the learning curve I guess!


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## ekul (8/11/11)

I did and its tasting fantastic. A hop flower got into the keg though and my flow rate is really slow. Kinda good though, means the keg will last a litttle longer and have time to clear up properly  It is making me seriously consider gettting a filter



moosebeer said:


> Hey ekul, Did you get a chance to do this yet? Would love to know how you went. I did a NC version of Ross's Nelson Summer Ale and it came out very bitter. I didn't adjust the hop additions at all as I had read that some people found the difference neglible but this last batch of mine is tasting like cats piss haha
> I'm thinking this method might be the way to go with recipe's that include a lot of late hop additions


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## bullsneck (24/11/11)

I am considering a 10min Pale this weekend and was planning on not using hops in the kettle, but rather bittering methode de argonais.

Is there a problem by not adding bittering hops in the kettle and waiting until no-chill does its thing and then bitter on the stove?

I hope my ramblings are comprehensible.


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## black_labb (24/11/11)

bullsneck said:


> I am considering a 10min Pale this weekend and was planning on not using hops in the kettle, but rather bittering methode de argonais.
> 
> Is there a problem by not adding bittering hops in the kettle and waiting until no-chill does its thing and then bitter on the stove?
> 
> I hope my ramblings are comprehensible.




From what I understand you want to brew a beer where you no chill and add the hops to the cube for flavour, aroma and some bitterness and adjust the final bitterness by doing a separate boil on the stove?

That should work well, though I don't understand why you wouldn't add the bittering hops to the boil instead of a separate boil on the side. Is the idea to do the boil after evaluating the bitterness? I don't know how you would be trying to evaluate the bitterness before it is fermented out.

If you are doing an american pale then I'd consider only adding hops to the cube. I've done a number of hoppy beers with all or near all the hops in the cube with good effect. I do tend to use the higher alpha hops (I like the kiwi hops for this) so that I don't need huge volumes of the stuff to get the effect. 

I'm sipping on a rye-apa with sticklebract and pacific gem that I brewed about 6 months ago. I would of drank it earlier had I not been travelling overseas for 4.5 months. I have a hard life

edit: I don't wirlpool as I let the trub settle in the cube and siphon the clear wort off the trub and I usually still have my element on until the keggle is half drained so my cube hops get very close to the 100 degree boil. If I'm not adding more than 25g of cube hops I estimate 20 minutes equivalent, if more I guess for 15 minutes equivalent.


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## bullsneck (24/11/11)

I was going to just boil 3 or so liters of wort from the cube for 10mins, adding the hops as it reaches boiling point. My question was really aimed at whether or not cubing requires a bitterness addition (whether that be 60min or whenever) knowing that hops act as a preserver.

Note: brewing Sunday, doing mini-boil and yeast pitch Monday.


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## black_labb (24/11/11)

I'm not sure what you mean exactly bullsneck. I usually aim for an IBU relative to style, 35-45IBU is pretty usual for an APA for me. with an OG of around 1055 it takes about 70g of 12% AA hops for ~40IBU of bitterness. You get different effects from different boil times and if you are after flavour and aroma then cube hops are a good way to go. You get a bonus bitterness so you don't need to use much bittering hops.

If you're not familiar with the calculationd give www.brewmate.net a try. Just punching numbers and comparing them to style guidelines can be helpful in figuring out what the effects of ingredients and times are. Just remember that boiling hops for a while will boil off the flavour and the aroma, but if you keep it short (or cube hopping) you keep the flavour and aroma. but get less bitterness extracted from the hops.


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## OneEye (25/11/11)

Black Labb, what bullsneck is planning on doing is this. Brewday as normal... 60 minute boil except no hops added. After boil is done he runs it off into the cube to no-chill. He'll put the cube into the fridge overnight and when he comes back to it the next day it should be around ~4C at which point he runs off about 3-4 litres and procedes to boil that up on the stovetop. It is now that he will be adding his late hop additions, in this case a shit load of hops for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes Bullshead will transfer the hot wort into the cold wort bring it perfectly into pitching temps. Pitch yeast and off you go!
Bullsneck, I think you'll be fine doing it this way. If you're planning to pitch the very next day then the preservative effects of the hops won't come into play. Just as long as the hot wort is transferred into the cube soon enough so that its able to pasturise the inside of the cube.


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## black_labb (25/11/11)

That makes sense. I was getting the impression that he is more worried about the bitterness levels than the aroma hopping. That sounds fine


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## bullsneck (26/11/11)

I've never no-chilled without a 60min addition of hops so I wasn't sure if hops were required when you NC wort.

Thanks for the help.

Sorry for the confusion there Black Labb


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## bowie in space (15/12/11)

Argon, 

I was under the impression that it's better to pitch yeast as soon as possible onto a full volume of aerated wort.

Hopefully not a stupid question, but how does the larger mass of wort (now in your fermenter) remain aerated in the time it takes to boil and chill the late hops?

I did notice you do get a little more aeration when you pour you 3L late hops into the rest of the wort, then your yeast slurry and obviously your beer turned out pretty good, but just curious if you used any further aeration techniques.

My cubes have a tap on them. Do you reckon I could draw three litres from the cube, boil and chill late hops then add everything to the fermenter in the one motion for maximum aeration?

Bowie


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## argon (15/12/11)

I consider it to be fine. The reboil only takes about 15mins before adding it to the cool portion anyway, so not a great deal of time to wait. Also, because i've poured it in the fermentor at 4C it will have absorbed alot of oxygen compared to doing it at ambient.

For instance this beer started at 1060 and finished at 1011 for apparent attenuation of 81.67%

If you have concerns, do as you've proposed or give it a quick thrashing with a slotted spoon for more aeration after pitching.


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## argon (15/12/11)

Was going to post over in the other thread - Nc10min Ipa... but it was drifting, so thought i'd take it over here, as it seemed to relate.



WarmBeer said:


> Try Le Methode Argonoise.



Probably won't surprise that I employ the above method and have had some great results. I now have a plate chiller as part of my setup and have used it in the last 2 batches with so far great results. Surprisingly, it hasn't added as much time to the brewday as i had thought... which is a bonus.



BeerFingers said:


> I think this method would work, but it just seems a though you have a 2 day, 2 stage brew day.
> I'm looking at having 1 brew day in the shortest time possible and for $130, i may as well just buy a plate chiller when compared to this method.
> 
> personally, I would rather have 1 brew day (inclusive of pitching my yeast), have no hop schedule adjustments and make beer as the recipe is intended.
> ...



However i totally agree with you here BF... it is an extra bit of dicking about further to the initial brew day. It's not for everyone. And even though i have the chiller, I still plan to no chill the occasional brew (especially those that are not overly reliant on late hopping). 

It's about what fits your style. For me of late, i've wanted to get everything done and dusted in one session, i'm sure in the future i'll want something else. So... i'm pretty happy having options at hand, chilled, no chilled (with no adjustments) and No Chill with the reboil + hopping method.


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## WarmBeer (15/12/11)

argon said:


> Probably won't surprise that I employ the above method and have had some great results. I now have a plate chiller as part of my setup and have used it in the last 2 batches with so far great results. Surprisingly, it hasn't added as much time to the brewday as i had thought... which is a bonus.


Say it ain't so. Say. It. Ain't. So.

From now on, let it be known as "Le Methode Traitorous"


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## argon (15/12/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Say it ain't so. Say. It. Ain't. So.
> 
> From now on, let it be known as "Le Methode Traitorous"



yeah i know :huh: I felt bad until i tasted the first quick chilled IPA :icon_drool2:


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## loikar (15/12/11)

argon said:


> yeah i know :huh: I felt bad until i tasted the first quick chilled IPA :icon_drool2:



You can imagine my disappointment when I did the same, only in reverse....


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## dexter.rose (1/2/12)

Argon,

A user from homebrewtalk.com pointed me over to this thread after I said I wanted to try something very similar. Looks like you've already done the tests and have enjoyed the results.

Are you still doing your late hopping method with "No Chill" brewing?

Is there anything with the method that you are thinking about changing?

Thank you,
Jason Mundy


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## argon (1/2/12)

G'day mate. Yes I still do the exact same thing, if so inclined, to no chill wort. Although it's less likely these days as I have acquired a plate chiller.

But if I get the opportunity to brew and have to no chill due to other factors, I'll certainly be puting this method into practice, as I feel the results are well worth it.


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## The_Dog_42 (25/4/14)

Looks like I'll raise this one from the dead.

I was considering a different method of using the no-chill method and the cube in particular for late hopped beers. Boil brewing water, with salts added, put it into the cube and allow the vacuum to develop. Put it in the freezer on brew day, brew up the recipe as normal and use the semi-frozen sanitized water to cool the wort. You wouldn't need a full 5 gallon cube for water either, a 1.5-2.5 gal cube would work very well.

There are a few things that kill some advantages of No-chill, but it doesn't remove all the advantages. The main disadvantage is you would have to have space in your fermenter available in the next 24 hours (yes, I've let mine sit overnight to get to proper pitching temps after doing a less polished variation on this method.) and in your freezer. You also have to account for the top-up water in the recipe.

The advantages are being able to retain an "original" recipe, without the difficultly in cleaning a CFC or plate chiller. You also save time, because, at least in my experience with Texas ground water, the frozen couple of gallons achieves near-pitching temperatures very quickly compared to 10+ minutes on a plate chiller and 30+ with an IC. This method also favors water restricted areas, because the overall amount of water used should be nearly the same as a no-chill method.

Am I overlooking something?


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## manticle (25/4/14)

How do you use the water to chill the batch? Is it smaller volume, higher gravity and you are diluting with it? I'm not sure I follow your intention.


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## The_Dog_42 (27/4/14)

Guess I didn't make my intention clear.

I was thinking that this would basically act as top-up water. Brew a higher than desired SG, and use the no-chill container to store, sanitized, ice water. Perhaps not ideal, but it may be another way to maintain hop flavor and aroma in a recipe.


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## manticle (27/4/14)

Worth trying I guess but I can imagine the amount of water required to chill that much would be quite a good portion of the liquor.


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## Andrewbarnes83 (12/12/15)

For any users of this method, do you find that you have to use more hops to compensate for the smaller boil volume?


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