# Sweet beer, low mash temp!



## wereprawn (4/6/14)

I've mashed my first 2 AG beers at 64-62c for a drier brew. But, while delicious, they both have quite a bit of sweetness about them. 

# 1

2.5 kg JW pils

800 g JW Wheat

800 g JW munich 

250 g carahell

5 g magnum @ 60 min

15 g Saaz @ 60 min

30 g saaz @ 20 min

us-05 @ 16 c.

Og-? FG- 1010

Thought the carahell may have provided the sweetness so.....

90 min boil.

#2

4 kg JW trad ale

200 g JW Wheat

500 g JW Vienna

10 g Cascade @ 40 min

20 g Cascade @ 20 min

us-05

90 min boil.

Og-1043 Fg- 1008

I would not describe the beers as malty just a bit sweet. There is more body than expected too. 

My thermometer has been calibrated against 2 others and they all read the same.

# 3 has more hops to counter the sweetness. But i was really aiming to get a dryish , light bodied ,lightly hopped quaffing beer.

Could add dex or sugar to reduce the body but i would like to get that aspect sorted with AG.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Cheers.


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## mje1980 (4/6/14)

Munich or the Vienna maybe?. Fermentation temp?


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## Vini2ton (4/6/14)

Try some flaked rice and maybe a longer mash time. Done a couple with flaked and they seemed drier. Also, the longer in the bottle the more dry they become I reckon. Maybe forget about cara type grains if you want dry. Goodluck, dry is my quest also.


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## beerbog (4/6/14)

US05 at 16 deg is pretty much on its lower end of the range. Maybe it stalled? Add some yeast nutrient during the boil to give it a bit of a kick and oxygenate/ thrash well. :beerbang:


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## mje1980 (4/6/14)

I'm surprised the low mash temp didn't dry it out. As mentioned above, do the same recipe and do a 90 min mash at those temps. That should dry it right out. 

I find us05 can give a sweet/estery type flavour I don't like but 16 deg ferment should stop that definately.


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## Beertard (4/6/14)

When and how much were the hop additions for #3? 
Seems like very little bittering in #2


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

Thanks Vini and Gibbo . I keg so residual sweetness should not be a problem. The rice is going to be my next avenue. Don't know if it will help with the sweetness but may resolve the body issue. With all my beers i give them a couple of days at ambient in the fermenter to finish off. I have never had an FG lower than 1006 ( except for a couple of saisons ) with the kit/extract beers i used to make so i think 1010 - 1008 is probably about right. I will take your advice and get some nutrient with my next order though and see if that helps.

Thanks for the replies guys. If you have any more ideas i'm all ears.

Cheers.


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## barls (4/6/14)

if you want dry. drop the crystal all together in there.


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

mje and steve. I will do the 90 min mash next time and see if that helps. #3 is an APA . Something with more hops to counteract the sweetness. So # 3 does not really matter here. Lightly hopped is exactly what i was after for those first 2 beers.

Cheers.


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

Yeah i did that barls.


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## Bribie G (4/6/14)

The "yeast" books strays into mashing and one thing that caught my attention was Chris White debunking the Urban Myth that lower mashing temperature equals more dryness. Whilst higher mashing usually give more "body" there are many examples of beers that are mashed low but still have malt sweetness.


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## Screwtop (4/6/14)

Cara/Crystal malt %'s are not over the top.

Beer is a sweet malt based beverage. Hops are used to reduce sweetness to balance the taste. Brewing is ALL ABOUT BALANCE!!

Bitterness levels in your recipes would be: #1 around BU:20 for a beer of around GU:48 and #2 around BU:10 for about GU:50 

If you want a light refreshing light hopped beer, either make a lager of GU:47 from and BU:16 (Horizon Hops) using 22% Flaked Corn 11% Rice 67% Pils malt. 

Or

Buy some XXXX Gold

Screwy


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## Beertard (4/6/14)

You dropped the crystal
it's still too sweet
balance the sweetness with bitterness, it doesn't mean it has be any hoppier


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## Vini2ton (4/6/14)

Taste.The final frontier.The Doors of Perceived malt sweetness.That's abuse telling someone to buy XXXX gold.


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

hmm ..that may be where i went wrong screwy I had the bitter/sweet thing down pat with my extract brews . But i just thought extract gave a sweeter finish than AG so adjusted my hops accordingly. All my hop additions were just educated guesses with long time extract/kit brewing. Seems i need reeducating. 

xxxx gold ! Phfft. I may live more northerly than you but the hot tropical sun has not deteriorated my mind enough to enjoy it.


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

Vini2ton said:


> Taste.The final frontier.The Doors of Perceived malt sweetness.That's abuse telling someone to buy XXXX gold.


It's beer Vini , but not as we know it.


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## manticle (4/6/14)

Might be vdk. Pure conjecture but would you describe the sweetness as anything like honey, butterscotch or buttered popcorn?
Higher mashed beers aren't necessarily super sweet - just mostly thicker bodied depending on other factors.


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

manticle said:


> Might be vdk. Pure conjecture but would you describe the sweetness as anything like honey, butterscotch or buttered popcorn?
> Higher mashed beers aren't necessarily super sweet - just mostly thicker bodied depending on other factors.


 No nothing like those. vdk?


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## manticle (4/6/14)

Group of chemicals known as vicinal diketones. Diacetyl is one of them, 2-3 pentanedione is another and has a honey like flavour.


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## manticle (4/6/14)

Just glancing at the recipes and they look as if they may be underhopped. Reading on a phone so someone else may have already suggested. Alpha acid percentages and/or predicted ibu?


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## mxd (4/6/14)

it appears you missing hops, assuming the sazz is a 3-4% and magnum 14%


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## bradsbrew (4/6/14)

Look at the IBU balance. Also have you calibrated your temp gauge?


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## Black n Tan (4/6/14)

higher levels of carbonation can make it seem drier also, but agree about the IBU's being low.


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## wereprawn (4/6/14)

manticle said:


> Group of chemicals known as vicinal diketones. Diacetyl is one of them, 2-3 pentanedione is another and has a honey like flavour.





manticle said:


> Just glancing at the recipes and they look as if they may be underhopped. Reading on a phone so someone else may have already suggested. Alpha acid percentages and/or predicted ibu?


Didn't have any "wrong" flavours manticle. And the bitterness level is exactly what i was aiming for.There is just this up-front sweetness i didn't anticipate. Do you think Chappo,s aussie lager recipie( but with noble hops) and another cool ale ferment would get me closer? Don't get me wrong, i enjoy a wide variety of beer and make my own accordingly. The reason i started AG was to have more control over the product and this was one type of beer i found impossible to nail with extract brews


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## manticle (4/6/14)

As pointed out bitterness balances sweetness so I think the hops and malt are out of balance as suggested originally by screwtop I believe. How do you calulate ibu?


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## mje1980 (5/6/14)

My xxxx gold clone was 9 IBU. But because it was mashed for 90 mins at 62c and fermented down to 1.005, it wasn't sweet at all. Quite dry too.


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## TheWiggman (5/6/14)

Bit of a stretch as I think most avenues are covered, but did you let it ferment out fully? How long in the fermeter before kegging? The amatuer in me says sweetness is probably from unconverted sugars (to alcohol). I've never used US-05 but if there are remaining sugars it probably means your mash has done the job and it simply hasn't fermented out.
Maybe more yeast and a higher fermentation temp for longer might do it?

Totally agree with a longer mash time being a good idea, but if you haven't hit a low FG as you would expect AND you have sweetness, I don't _think_ that's the problem.


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## manticle (5/6/14)

Hit 1008 so not a lot of fermentation left unless it's a cider or saison.


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## marksy (5/6/14)

Just a quickie in regards to thermometers. Don't use another one or more to check. Do a calibration chart. Because if they are all off then you a still fsrked.


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## RobB (5/6/14)

FG of 1.010 and 1.008 respectively? I'd say that your thermometer and yeast are doing everything you are asking of them.

If you are convinced that your hopping rate is correct, is it possible that your beer is oxidised? I taste the early stages of oxidation as a honey-like sweetness.


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## wereprawn (5/6/14)

Thanks for all the replies. Now i have something to work with. I will try changing yeast , mashing longer and dropping the Vienna and Munich , one by one .



Malty Cultural said:


> FG of 1.010 and 1.008 respectively? I'd say that your thermometer and yeast are doing everything you are asking of them.
> 
> If you are convinced that your hopping rate is correct, is it possible that your beer is oxidised? I taste the early stages of oxidation as a honey-like sweetness.


 Don't think it's oxidized MC as i'm pretty careful when transferring to the keg.

Cheers.


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## paulmclaren11 (5/6/14)

I have used JW Pils malt a few times in lagers and haven't liked it at all - I find that malt to impart a sweeter finish...

Might be my dodgy palate, but maybe try some Wey Pils malt and see the difference.


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## Spiesy (5/6/14)

Gibbo1 said:


> US05 at 16 deg is pretty much on its lower end of the range. Maybe it stalled? Add some yeast nutrient during the boil to give it a bit of a kick and oxygenate/ thrash well. :beerbang:


Stalled with an FG of 1010 and 1008?


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## Spiesy (5/6/14)

What is your brewing method?

Just wondering, are you measuring the temp of your mash once all grain is added and a thorough stir has been performed?

Have you checked the temp of the mash throughout the mash? Maybe at 30mins and at 60mins?


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## wereprawn (5/6/14)

Spiesy said:


> What is your brewing method?
> 
> Just wondering, are you measuring the temp of your mash once all grain is added and a thorough stir has been performed?
> 
> Have you checked the temp of the mash throughout the mash? Maybe at 30mins and at 60mins?


Stove top atm. And yeah spiesy I've been checking the temp before adding grain, after adding , at 30 min then again at the end. Plus i give it a good stir initially then at 30 and at the end, measuring temp after each stir.


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## mfeighan (5/6/14)

Where are your hops stored? They can loose aa pretty quickly at room temp. To be honest looking at those bills and fg the only thing that you could perceive as sweet is the lack of ibus.


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## wereprawn (5/6/14)

In the freezer mikey. Brewmate reckoned 28.6 IBU for #1. And the hops were one's that arrived that week from national home brew. I've always been happy with the quality of Martins wares.


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## Screwtop (6/6/14)

wereprawn said:


> hmm ..that may be where i went wrong screwy I had the bitter/sweet thing down pat with my extract brews . But i just thought extract gave a sweeter finish than AG so adjusted my hops accordingly. All my hop additions were just educated guesses with long time extract/kit brewing. Seems i need reeducating.
> 
> xxxx gold ! Phfft. I may live more northerly than you but the hot tropical sun has not deteriorated my mind enough to enjoy it.



Hahaha! There was a great article floating about years ago re Sweetness Bitterness Balance in beer. There is also a Sweetness Bitterness formula available to assist in designing beers. However (there is always a however when discussing brewing) you need to be experienced enough with ingredients, brewing system and yeast strain to be able to predict FG, as naturally this has an effect on bitterness perception. Have a google around and see if you can find it, if not PM me and I can send it to you. The formula takes beer style into account as well as OG and FG. 

Manticle also has a point re VDK's, Google Charlie Bamforth and VDK for some great info.

Screwy


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## Screwtop (6/6/14)

Found them, maybe of interest to others too.


Charlie :http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/01/29/diaceytl-in-beer-with-charlie-bamforth-beersmith-podcast-31/

And

Balance Value Formula: http://klugscheisserbrauerei.wordpress.com/beer-balance/

Screwy


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## wereprawn (6/6/14)

Screwtop said:


> Found them, maybe of interest to others too.
> 
> 
> Charlie :http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/01/29/diaceytl-in-beer-with-charlie-bamforth-beersmith-podcast-31/
> ...


Ahh....Thanks Screwy. The BVF link made things clearer .I'll get to the podcast. Had a glance at Stu's balance guide a while ago but the concept eluded me at the time. (though i got the basic idea, if that makes sense).

Cheers.


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## donald_trub (7/6/14)

I recently switched to AG after doing partial mashes for the last year. All my AG batches were falling short of the expected FG. Turns out my mash thermometer was out by 8 whole degrees and I was mashing in the 70s. It was probably a problem with partial mashing, but to a much lesser extent. I was expecting less sweeter beers when I went to AG but like you, it turned out the opposite.


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## mfeighan (8/6/14)

Do you know your water chemistry as the cl : so4 ratio can play a big part in perceived bitterness / maltiness. You can actually try it out in the glass if you add super small portions. There is a spreadsheet floating around where you can input your numbers and work it out. Ez water calc or something. You also can contact your water authority for a breakdown of whats in your tap water. I know my area has a cl : so4 ratio of like 2.5:1 so beers are default malty without adding salts

Edit : smileys


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## wereprawn (8/6/14)

Cheers Mikey . I'll do that. Quite a few variables i need to consider. #1 is all gone now. #2 has been in the keg and in the fridge a few days now. The sweetness and body have subsided quite bit now. I have a feeling the tiny bit of yeast that was still in suspension had a lot to do with the body issue.

Cheers.


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## neonmeate (3/7/14)

saaz itself can taste sweet


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