# Cider Using Whole Apples - Not Juice



## davidd (12/4/11)

Hi, I'm just starting to research making some cider.. My Dad did it years ago and told me that they used to use whole apples (not juice) cut them into quarters and add to some liquid and leave it all to ferment, the rest of the description from him is VERY vague.. Has anyone heard of this method.. I have done quite a few google searches and everyone seems to juice the apples

thanks
David


----------



## Gormand (12/4/11)

Davidd said:


> Hi, I'm just starting to research making some cider.. My Dad did it years ago and told me that they used to use whole apples (not juice) cut them into quarters and add to some liquid and leave it all to ferment, the rest of the description from him is VERY vague.. Has anyone heard of this method.. I have done quite a few google searches and everyone seems to juice the apples
> 
> thanks
> David



I would imagine just sitting in water (Assuming thats the liquid he was using) the fruits would release their sugars. This would allow the yeast to start munching and I know from a friends experience that cut up apples in fermenting cider kinda turn to mush so I am assuming that this happens to them as well, which releases more sugars etc.
Then just run the whole lot through a mesh bag, or maybe you can just let it settle out.

I am intriged to try this. I am planning on using 2L bottles to test things out, sounds like a good test  Might pickup some apples on the way home. I would add a tiny bit of DDME and yeast nutrient to keep the yeast happy and kick things off and go from there.


----------



## manticle (12/4/11)

I'm sure it would work but it seems like a very inefficient way of getting fruit sugar.


----------



## Greg.L (12/4/11)

It isn't difficult to make a homemade press. There are lots of plans on the web - use google images. I mill my apples with a garden mulcher, then press them with a homemade press. Using whole apples will be a lot of trouble for not much cider, and it probably won't taste as good.


----------



## ekul (12/4/11)

Greg.L said:


> It isn't difficult to make a homemade press. There are lots of plans on the web - use google images. I mill my apples with a garden mulcher, then press them with a homemade press. Using whole apples will be a lot of trouble for not much cider, and it probably won't taste as good.



it really amazes me the amount of ingenuity on here, what a tops idea


----------



## KenJohnson (13/4/11)

ive heard of the "whole" apple technique, but that was for an apple wine in which you have to add both water and sugar. but as GregL said, it wouldnt be hard to knock up some sort of press. I was considering doing this: pulp the apples somehow, then wrap them up in some very open weave fabric (hessian?) and press them with two squares of wood and a few G clamps. with a little investigating, you'll find heaps of cool, easy ideas


----------



## KudaPucat (2/6/11)

Many fruit wines are made this way. BUT apple juice will have a SG of about 1060 at best. Made this way, if we assume 50% water %50 apples, you'll get 1030 maximum, which if fermented dry will give you 2.5% or so max ABV.
If you crush or shred the apples, you'll be able to increase this ratio. It would be interesting to try, as I think it may give different flavours than a juice only batch.
It will ferment fine, and the yeast will have no trouble turning those apples to mush.



Greg.L said:


> It isn't difficult to make a homemade press. There are lots of plans on the web - use google images. I mill my apples with a garden mulcher, then press them with a homemade press. Using whole apples will be a lot of trouble for not much cider, and it probably won't taste as good.



It is hard to make an efficient one though.
The best efficiency I have seen is using a 'scratter' to pre mulch it. Google scratter for more info, it destroys the most number of juice cells, allowing the highest estraction when pressing.

As I understand it, apple juice is quite acidic. I imagine that (unless it's really fancy) your garden mulcher does not have stainless blades. Contact with resinous timbers or raw steel is a well quoted 'no no' with apple cidre. Have you had any trouble with this?
A garden mulcher would be hard to keep sanitised, I'd expect... what sort of troubles do you have (if any) with this method?
(I'm fishing cos I don't want to have to build a scratter ;-D )


----------



## gap (2/6/11)

I am drinking a cider made from juice supplied by Greg.L 
using his mulcher and juice press to extract the cider apple juice..
I can verify it makes fantastic apple cider

Regards

Graeme


----------



## chefeffect (2/6/11)

I my self have just bought a few books on cider, one awesome recomendation for small scale cider is to freeze the apples and then juice them once thawed, rather than pulping. A really good cheese press has been recorded of having upto 70% yeild of juice from the apples, reather than the wine presses which can also be used which may yeild 40-50%.


----------



## KudaPucat (2/6/11)

gap said:


> I am drinking a cider made from juice supplied by Greg.L
> using his mulcher and juice press to extract the cider apple juice..
> I can verify it makes fantastic apple cider
> 
> ...



Thanks Graeme, I expected as much, or he'd not bother making it.
I'm more interested as to whether he has ever had an infection, what contact with bare iron does, and what he does to keep the mulcher clean.



chefeffect said:


> I my self have just bought a few books on cider, one awesome recomendation for small scale cider is to freeze the apples and then juice them once thawed, rather than pulping. A really good cheese press has been recorded of having upto 70% yeild of juice from the apples, reather than the wine presses which can also be used which may yeild 40-50%.



Yes I was aware of the dismal efforts of wine presses. Do you not pulp the apples after freezing? You just press them whole?

Alas, as interesting as this appears to be, I don't think it's very usefull for me, as I don't have a freezer big enough for the 3-4 tonne of apples I'm being asked to juice...
What does a cheese press look like?
do you mean wrapping the pulp up in 'cheeses' and pressing them? Cos yeah, we already do this.


----------



## chefeffect (2/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Thanks Graeme, I expected as much, or he'd not bother making it.
> I'm more interested as to whether he has ever had an infection, what contact with bare iron does, and what he does to keep the mulcher clean.
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah a freezer that big may be a logistical nightmare ha ha, no my comment was mainly addressing small scale, and you do not need to pulp the apples afterwards you can just crush them by hand or roughly crush how ever you choose, obviously its only an option for small scale. 

And the press im refering to is a pack press from making up "cheeses" then pressing them, sorry I should have been more clearer.


----------



## Greg.L (2/6/11)

gap said:


> I am drinking a cider made from juice supplied by Greg.L
> using his mulcher and juice press to extract the cider apple juice..
> I can verify it makes fantastic apple cider
> 
> ...



Thanks Graeme, good to hear it turned out well. Of course I clean the mulcher every day when pressing.
The issue with mild steel contact is that iron gets into the juice and when oxidised will give the cider a dark colour. You really should avoid your cider oxidising, but it is best to minimise contact with mild steel or iron. This year I painted the internals of my mulcher with polyurethane paint so the iron contact is a lot less than previous years. It doesn't effect the flavour at all and won't cause infections. You can buy a SS apple mill from winequip for $1400, a bit out of my price range (my mulcher was free). You can see a photo of my homemade press on my gallery, gets about 60% efficiency for an investment of less than $100, I can press about 30L per hour.

Greg


----------



## Greg.L (2/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Many fruit wines are made this way. BUT apple juice will have a SG of about 1060 at best. Made this way, if we assume 50% water %50 apples, you'll get 1030 maximum, which if fermented dry will give you 2.5% or so max ABV.
> If you crush or shred the apples, you'll be able to increase this ratio. It would be interesting to try, as I think it may give different flavours than a juice only batch.
> It will ferment fine, and the yeast will have no trouble turning those apples to mush.
> 
> ...



To clean my mulcher I just take it apart, it is easy to disassemble and clean. I think a mulcher is the easiest, cheapest way to mill apples. In terms of efficiency a mulcher works very well, chops the apples into small pieces but not too small. If the apples are pulped too much it will clog the cloth and be hard to press the juice out. Making a press is really quite simple, it is mostly just a matter of scale. A big press needs bigger timber and bottle jack, a 10 or 16 tonne will give a good yield. A small press will be cheaper but slower. I pressed about 1.5 tonne this year, a fair bit of work by yourself but much easier with help.

Greg


----------



## InCider (2/6/11)

Hi Greg - I'm in love with your cellar!


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

Yeah, the presses are sorted, it's just the mulching.
So do you have stainless parts, or is the steel + apple juice 'nono' a bit of an old wive's tail?


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Yeah, the presses are sorted, it's just the mulching.
> So do you have stainless parts, or is the steel + apple juice 'nono' a bit of an old wive's tail?



Not exactly an old wives tale, but it's all relative to your budget. SS only came into widespread use in the 1930s, before that all cider was milled using mild steel. It is definitely best to use machinery designed for food processing meaning mainly SS or plastic. The cheapest apple mill I know of is the "fruit shark" ,basically a food-safe mulcher the same as a garden mulcher but all SS. I haven't heard of the fruit shark being sold in oz, I think in the UK its about 400pounds. If you want to spend the $1400 get the mill from winequip, it is pretty fast for milling. The only unpainted mild steel parts of my mulcher are the blades. I could try and replace these with SS but it doesn't seem such a problem to me, the cider turns out fine. If you want to go into full commercial production you need to make sure all the equipment, pumps etc, are food grade, but if you are just doing small scale stuff I think you just need to make sure you use stuff that can be properly cleaned. my mulcher is very easy to take apart and clean at the end of the day. I've worked a bit in a winery and most of what they do is cleaning.


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> Not exactly an old wives tale, but it's all relative to your budget. SS only came into widespread use in the 1930s, before that all cider was milled using mild steel. It is definitely best to use machinery designed for food processing meaning mainly SS or plastic. The cheapest apple mill I know of is the "fruit shark" ,basically a food-safe mulcher the same as a garden mulcher but all SS. I haven't heard of the fruit shark being sold in oz, I think in the UK its about 400pounds. If you want to spend the $1400 get the mill from winequip, it is pretty fast for milling. The only unpainted mild steel parts of my mulcher are the blades. I could try and replace these with SS but it doesn't seem such a problem to me, the cider turns out fine. If you want to go into full commercial production you need to make sure all the equipment, pumps etc, are food grade, but if you are just doing small scale stuff I think you just need to make sure you use stuff that can be properly cleaned. my mulcher is very easy to take apart and clean at the end of the day. I've worked a bit in a winery and most of what they do is cleaning.



Cool, that is interesting to hear...
Most of the traditional mills used timber or stone though. Timber hammer mills came after stone wheel mills AFAIK steel was never used, but perhaps for a short while in the early 1900's before stainless was discovered.
60% yield is OK, the hand mulcher from winequip (can be retrofitted with a motor) got about that yield too.
We found with a scratter (poorly manufactured and not ours, had to return it, and can't bottow again) and a cheese press, that we got nearly 85% yield.
I know it's not commercial, but if it means I pick less apples (or get more cidre) and the price to pay is sitting and having a drink whilst the press does it's thing.. well hey... who's whinging.
Anyhow, we now have 3 presses in out little group, and we can only just keep up with 2, so sitting with a drink watching the juice drain is probably a pipe dream.


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

How do you measure yield? By 60% I mean 6L juice/10kg fruit. I haven,t heard of 85% yield with apples so I think you must be using a different measure - you could only get that sort of yield with a commercial belt or screw press.

Greg


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> How do you measure yield? By 60% I mean 6L juice/10kg fruit. I haven,t heard of 85% yield with apples so I think you must be using a different measure - you could only get that sort of yield with a commercial belt or screw press.
> 
> Greg



Our measure is the same as yours. except we weighed the juice, as it's more realistic, so perhaps by your scale it's more like 75-80% because of the 7% difference in our measures.

We did it using a scratter, and a cheese press with drains between the cheeses, and a 20 tonne load cranked up untill the 4x2 timbers threaten to (and eventually do) snap.
Drain boards between the cheeses made a HEAP of difference. And the scratter - High speed mill, which breaks the cells by impact, not just cutting.
I'd LOVE to have a belt press, they work so efficiently and quickly.

The scratter, as I mentioned was poorly made, but this led to slow production more than low yield.

I've been convinced to build a scratter. Plans and photos will be provided when it's ready and proven (next apple season)
It's rather fancy and high quality, because of the commercial like yields we're going for, so I don't know how many ppl will be interested, but the cost is looking at about $300 so far. I'm prepared to spend up to $600.
I'll let you know.

regarding presses, the only difference between a hydraulic press and a screw press is the gearing in a screw press. But given a sufficiently wide cylinder and enough oil, the same pressures can be experienced.
Also: waiting a while for the juice to propperly slow down gives ~1% more yield
giving it 10 minutes to recover again, and then re-pressing gives another ~4% yeild.

(the measured value was 5% all up, I'm guessing 1% and 4% based on my visual recollection)

My hypothesis on this is that you squish all the juice out of the cheeses, but some juice gets squished into the pulp. Letting it rest means you have some very dry pulp and some wet, so the juice wicks into the dry pulp. when you press again, some of that juice is pressed out, and some pressed back in again. But the result is a higher yield - if you have the time to wait.


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

Well sounds like you're doing a pretty good job pressing. Some people take the whole cheese apart then repack the pulp before re-pressing. Others add a bit of water for the second pressing, the way brewers add water to sparge the grain, but I don't like the idea of diluting the juice. Also I'm too lazy to do a second pressing, I have more apples than I need so 60% is fine for me.

Speed is also important to me, I get about 30L/hr by myself but would like to get that up to 50L/hr with a bigger press when my harvest gets bigger.

By screw press I mean a press with an auger pushing against a screen, wineries have continuous screw presses which can be emptied while still being filled. Belt presses are considered a bit harsh for good cider.


----------



## chefeffect (3/6/11)

Just wondering Greg.L and KudaPucat how you get your apples (not where thats fine) do you grow your own? also are they cider apples or dessert apples with some crab apple for the tannins? 

I have just bought 10 cider apple trees with 8 varieties from the four main classes on MM106 root stock, I know it will take 2-3 years for the first apple and probably a small amount at that, but I think its a good investment for my own use. Im also wondering if growing more would be a good idea for selling the apples or juice to brewers?? I have done some research and I can't seem to find anyone who does this, Im sure it would be easy to off load good quality cider apples if I can grow them. Yes I do dream a bit too much also. 

Anyways just curious what you guys do?

Edit: Greg.L I should have looked at your profile before I posted, I guess my question is what Apple trees do you grow? I also live on a hobby farm just South of Echuca.


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

I have my own trees, 1 proper cider tree (sweet alford) and the 6 heritage type dessert/cookers. I also planted a bunch of crab apple seedlings years ago from a "John Downie" crab, and some of these have proven excellent for giving tannins and body to my cider. It's definitely a good idea to plant some cider varieties, before you know it you will have a good crop to play around with - and its a lot easier than planting and maintaining a vineyard. I have started grafting cider and perry varieties to seedling rootstock I raised, it's pretty easy.

Selling juice is definitely easier than selling cider, though the price isn't as good. I don't know how much demand there is for cider juice but at least you don't have to bottle it and store it.


----------



## chefeffect (3/6/11)

Very true about the juice sale rather than hard cider, I am looking forward to trying some grafting off these trees in a few years. I see you said you made 800L juice, and from your own stock thats awesome. How goes the pear trees? I have thought about that also, although its a long term investment?? I guess it depends on the root stock. "Pears for your Heirs" as they say.

The cider varieties I have bought are: Kingston black, Improved Foxwhelp, Bulmers Norman, and Somerset Red Streak.

And some dessert/cider: Blanch, and Calcille Blanc D'Hiver which Im hoping to blend with the others?? 

Anyways all in the name of fun I guess, I found some great info on you tube from "stephenhayesuk" he has loads of posts on growing apples trees which has helped me.


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

They are good, well proven cider varieties, also good to have some non-bitter varieties for blending. Stephan hayes is very knowledgeable about apples, he contributes to the cider workshop forum on google groups, you may have seen it.

My seedling pears are doing well, the perry grafts will be slow to produce. There are so few perry trees in Australia, they may eventually be a good investment. From what I have read it is easier to make a good cider than a good perry. I use dessert pears for blending but this year the pears didn't ripen well so I didn't use them.

Greg


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> Well sounds like you're doing a pretty good job pressing. Some people take the whole cheese apart then repack the pulp before re-pressing. Others add a bit of water for the second pressing, the way brewers add water to sparge the grain, but I don't like the idea of diluting the juice. Also I'm too lazy to do a second pressing, I have more apples than I need so 60% is fine for me.


In a weekend, we like to produce 1000 litres, more if there's more help... so efficiency is prime, as that is one hell of a lot of apples to pick.
We simply let the pressure off, wait 10-15 or until we remember and re-apply the pressure. Those other techniques sound too much like hard work, and diluting the juice???? it's light enough already at 1050-1080 I certainly wouldn't want to 'sparge' it. Perhaps if I was adding water anyhow....


Greg.L said:


> Speed is also important to me, I get about 30L/hr by myself but would like to get that up to 50L/hr with a bigger press when my harvest gets bigger.



This is why, amongst the ppl who share the machinery, we will have 3 presses in use next year ;-)



Greg.L said:


> By screw press I mean a press with an auger pushing against a screen, wineries have continuous screw presses which can be emptied while still being filled. Belt presses are considered a bit harsh for good cider.



Really? Wow, when I heard of belt presses, I thought - wow, that's beautiful, it's disappointing to hear they're not as good as screw presses.
Yeah a screw press is like a meat mincer without the blades. But I don't get how the pulp is ejected in such a press? Especially if it's continuously loaded like you say.


----------



## chefeffect (3/6/11)

I had heard of the cider work shop forum but had not looked at it until you mentioned it, cheers its great.

I too have heard perry is harder to make than cider, blending sounds like a good idea, probably easier to buy dessert pears too. 

Yeah I think I will put some pears in next year, I found only one oneline shop that had 4 varieties of perry pears: GIN, GREEN HORSE, YELLOW HUFFCAP, and MOORCROFT, they only had Moorcroft available this year which I dont think I want due to the small window for picking. I might order some later on for next year they where $32 each.


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

My apples come from my main brewing mate, who collects them from dozens of trees on public land around his home town. He even makes the trip up to Bendigo where he has family, and picks when those trees are in season
The most we've been able to process has been almost 2 tonne. Despite him having 3 tonne there some years, we simply ran out of time.
Crab apple juice is essential to a good cidre imho. So is aging it.
My dad like yourself planted a dozen cidre trees (no perry damn him) and they will have their first harvest next year - hence my want to have decent equipment.
The other two guys, I don't really know that well, but I think as they have land they probably grow their own.

As for selling the stuff - value add it - make it into cidre, get a boutique liquor licence and sell it at the farmers' markets. Thos guys do very well..


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

chefeffect said:


> I had heard of the cider work shop forum but had not looked at it until you mentioned it, cheers its great.
> 
> I too have heard perry is harder to make than cider, blending sounds like a good idea, probably easier to buy dessert pears too.
> 
> Yeah I think I will put some pears in next year, I found only one oneline shop that had 4 varieties of perry pears: GIN, GREEN HORSE, YELLOW HUFFCAP, and MOORCROFT, they only had Moorcroft available this year which I dont think I want due to the small window for picking. I might order some later on for next year they where $32 each.



As far as I know they are the only 4 perry varieties in Australia. I grafted all 4 but moorcroft didn't take so I only have 3. I am growing seedlings of Pyrus pashia, the himalayan pear, as an experiment. The fruit are described as moderately astringent so I'm hoping they will make a decent perry. The trees are 2yo and growing well, already 2m tall.

I get perry and cider scion wood for grafting from the Orange Ag Institute, Lester Snare is the man to talk to there. They have a good collection of varieties and will post scion wood in winter. I have about 20 cider trees to plant this winter.

Greg


----------



## chefeffect (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> My apples come from my main brewing mate, who collects them from dozens of trees on public land around his home town. He even makes the trip up to Bendigo where he has family, and picks when those trees are in season
> The most we've been able to process has been almost 2 tonne. Despite him having 3 tonne there some years, we simply ran out of time.
> Crab apple juice is essential to a good cidre imho. So is aging it.
> My dad like yourself planted a dozen cidre trees (no perry damn him) and they will have their first harvest next year - hence my want to have decent equipment.
> ...



To tell you the truth, I have been looking a little into licencing also. I will have to look a bit more at the boutique liquor licence as I have not heard of it before. I know a guy who sell's "RED NED" which is a red wine spritzer at our local markets. Maybe cider is a great idea...?

I guess a lot of people get their apples in the same way you do KudaPucat being loads of country areas have apple trees in back yards and so on. There are plenty of Orchards up this way so I may have to buy a few box's and do some practice on them.


----------



## chefeffect (3/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> I get perry and cider scion wood for grafting from the Orange Ag Institute, Lester Snare is the man to talk to there. They have a good collection of varieties and will post scion wood in winter. I have about 20 cider trees to plant this winter.
> 
> Greg



I might have to have look into this, sounds like a good idea. Cheers.


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

As I understand it, and please - I've not researched this heavily.

If one gets permission and licence to brew alcohol for wholesale, one no longer needs a licence to sell in a public place such as a farmers market, or from their own cellar door, and other select places.
Somebody will need to research this properly.

I do know that the licence requires a dedicated brewry that has to pass health codes and all alcohol must be produced in this room. Inspections need to be made before a licence is issued, and there is a cost, as well as an annual fee I believe, but they're not insurmountable.


----------



## Greg.L (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> As I understand it, and please - I've not researched this heavily.
> 
> If one gets permission and licence to brew alcohol for wholesale, one no longer needs a licence to sell in a public place such as a farmers market, or from their own cellar door, and other select places.
> Somebody will need to research this properly.
> ...



In NSW there is no annual fee, just a once off $500 licence fee, plus a DA for the council, then you can sell farmgate or farmers market.

To me sitting around selling bottles of cider sounds pretty boring.


----------



## chefeffect (3/6/11)

Greg.L said:


> To me sitting around selling bottles of cider sounds pretty boring.



Ha ha ha yeah I have been to few farmers markets when I first started my catering business, I was selling spit roast rolls and other food products, and it's not the best way to make money let me tell you, and boring. Worse thing is you have to be at them on a rugular basis so people get to know your product, I only did 3 of them.


----------



## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

chefeffect said:


> Ha ha ha yeah I have been to few farmers markets when I first started my catering business, I was selling spit roast rolls and other food products, and it's not the best way to make money let me tell you, and boring. Worse thing is you have to be at them on a rugular basis so people get to know your product, I only did 3 of them.



Dedication is required yes, but at the Bundoora Market, ppl seem to make a killing, and it's only 4 hours on a sunday. The damn thing is packed, with ppl begging for stalls.
It's not something I'd probably do. at least not yet, but we'll see... Depends a lot of production capacity.
Dad is growing grapes, cidre trees and keeps bees.
If I were to fully harness his produce, he'd have WAY too much to drink on his own.
The only problem is you can't get the licence retrospectively I don't think. ie you can't get the licence and sell aged booze from before you were legit.


----------



## chefeffect (4/8/11)

Davidd said:


> Hi, I'm just starting to research making some cider.. My Dad did it years ago and told me that they used to use whole apples (not juice) cut them into quarters and add to some liquid and leave it all to ferment, the rest of the description from him is VERY vague.. Has anyone heard of this method.. I have done quite a few google searches and everyone seems to juice the apples
> 
> thanks
> David




I was talking to my sister in law who mentioned she makes soft cider from crab apples by cutting them into quarters, pouring boiling water over them, and then adding cream of tar tar, finished with sugar for taste. It is non alcoholic but I am wondering if this is what your father was talking about, I found a recipe here its half way down the page. 

I am guessing you could ferment it and then strain out the apples, the cream of tar tar sucks out the juice from the crab apples. Anyways hope this helps after we hijacked this thread a few months ago lol


----------



## joshuamurnane (27/11/11)

Just a note to all that are thinking of making a cider press, I found a 12 Ton Hydraulic Shop Press on ebay for $120, all you need then is to make the collection bed and find cheese cloths for the layers.


----------



## Greg.L (27/11/11)

I think the best presses available in Australia are the idropress water pressure bag presses. Much easier and quicker than a rack and cloth press, and they give a reasonable yield. Winequip sell them for around $1500 (80L).

idropress


----------



## joshuamurnane (27/11/11)

Thanks for that Greg.L, I'll take a look and start saving!


----------

