# Will Malt Extract Convert Wheat Flour / Torrified Wheat



## Fatgodzilla (20/10/08)

Looking at adding a mini mash to a can of goo. Will extract malt convert wheat flour / torrified wheat (which must be mashed) or do I need real grains ? I know I've read the answer somewhere, but be blowed where ?


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## Adamt (20/10/08)

I would doubt it... I don't think the enzymey-bits would survive the evaporation process.


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## Fatgodzilla (20/10/08)

Adamt said:


> I would doubt it... I don't think the enzymey-bits would survive the evaporation process.



I thought that too, but something is nagging away somewhere saying this might not be so. Palmer doesn't say (or if he does I can't find it). Mr Wizard at BYO hasn't got anything on it I can find. I'm saying NO until proven wrong, but something's nagging .......


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## Thirsty Boy (20/10/08)

It wont convert it - the extract is a concentrated post boil wort .... all teh enzymes will be killed off in the boil.

You will need about the same weight (a little less would do) of say a nice pilsner malt, galaxy maybe, as you have of the unmalted starch.

Thje pilsner will convert itself and also the the other starches

TB


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## Fatgodzilla (20/10/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> It wont convert it - the extract is a concentrated post boil wort .... all teh enzymes will be killed off in the boil.
> 
> You will need about the same weight (a little less would do) of say a nice pilsner malt, galaxy maybe, as you have of the unmalted starch.
> 
> ...



Tah TB, that's what I thought. I'll kill that nagging thought once and for all !


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## sponge (20/10/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> It wont convert it - the extract is a concentrated post boil wort .... all teh enzymes will be killed off in the boil.
> 
> You will need about the same weight (a little less would do) of say a nice pilsner malt, galaxy maybe, as you have of the unmalted starch.
> 
> ...



I was under the impression that you only needed a small amount of base grain to convert?

I used ummm (hard drive crashed last week so lost all my brewing notes) around 200g of pils malt with around 1kg of wheat malt as i was told you only needed a small percentage of the wheat malt.

im more then happy to be proved wrong

ps. keep in mind that was for a partial, not AG


Sponge


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## Adamt (20/10/08)

Wheat malt is still malt, it contains the enzymes required to convert in the mash. Wheat flour and torrified wheat do not contain enzymes.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/10/08)

If you mash at low enough temperature - a small amount of base malt will do. The enzymes dont get "used up" they are simply rendered ineffective over a period of time at the temperatures involved in a normal mash - so for something like the torrified wheat; where the starches are pre-gelatinised, then you can mash at a temperature around, or even below 60C and the enzymes will last so long, that even a really quite small amount of grain will get the job done given a sufficient amount of time. You will create a very high proportion of fermentable sugars at that temperature, which is OK because fermentables are what you want from an adjunct, and you should probably raise it up towards the end of the mash to make sure you gelatinise and convert all the starch in the grain itself - but you can use a lot less "malt" if you really want to. Just mash really low and for a long time. Do an iodine test to ensure you have completed your conversion.

Its a sort of "rule of thumb" that a highly enzymatic malt like a pilsner malt, will have no trouble under fairly normal mashing conditions, converting itself plus an equal amount of adjunct. Thats how I would manage it so you don't have to muck about with longer mashes and low temps..

But its just a "rule of thumb" so there is nothing saying you wont get away with even quite a bit less... its just a matter of the equal weights thing being a tried and true "safe" method.

About your wheat malt Sponge... you don't actually need any base malt for that, wheat malt is malted and has the ability to convert itself and probably a bit of non malted adjunct besides - wheat flour or torrified wheat is a different story.

TB


PS - Oh and FG... I'm not sure, but I think you might well need to do a cereal mash (incorporating a beta glucan rest) if you want to use wheat flour successfully. I haven't used it personally, but Graham Sanders (on his site) has a pretty good guide on how to use wheat flour in making a Witbier. The starch is all exposed in a flour... but it needs to be gelatinised and its gonna be pretty sticky without a BG rest. At least I think so, I'll leave it to someone with actual experience to chime in with what you really need to do...


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## sponge (20/10/08)

I never thought id ever learn so much from a forum... Its amazing 

Cheers for the info fellas.


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## Fatgodzilla (20/10/08)

sponge said:


> I never thought id ever learn so much from a forum... Its amazing
> 
> Cheers for the info fellas.




Youth is wasted on the young, Sponge me lad ! :icon_cheers: 





> I'm not sure, but I think you might well need to do a cereal mash (incorporating a beta glucan rest) if you want to use wheat flour successfully. I haven't used it personally, but Graham Sanders (on his site) has a pretty good guide on how to use wheat flour in making a Witbier. The starch is all exposed in a flour... but it needs to be gelatinised and its gonna be pretty sticky without a BG rest.



While the idea aint new, I got the idea from Capretta, a Sanders groupie. Funny enough, of course I should have gone to the guru's site for wheat flour info. Pity Graham can't make ANHC.


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## razz (20/10/08)

There used to be an extract called Diastatic malt or DME available a few years ago, I haven't seen it since G&G closed their Aspendale Gardens store. It had the ability to convert.


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## Weizguy (20/10/08)

+1 for the Diastatic malt extract. The diastase enzymes are the twin alpha and beta enzymes (can't remember the name right now) and are the mash enzymes from your pils or wheat or whatever.

Mostly a Brit product. Never caught on here in Oz, but Yes! some extract can convert the torrefied wheat. Raw wheat flour is added to create a bit of "false" haze in the bottle/glass/vessel. Cosmetic surgery for your beer.

Hope this helps. Refer to any of the Protz/Wheeler books to read more about diastatic malt.

(you owe me) Beers
Les out


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## Thirsty Boy (21/10/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> +1 for the Diastatic malt extract. The diastase enzymes are the twin alpha and beta enzymes (can't remember the name right now) and are the mash enzymes from your pils or wheat or whatever.
> 
> Mostly a Brit product. Never caught on here in Oz, but Yes! some extract can convert the torrefied wheat. Raw wheat flour is added to create a bit of "false" haze in the bottle/glass/vessel. Cosmetic surgery for your beer.
> 
> ...



Well bugger me ... you learn something new every day. Can you still actually buy the diastatic extract at all?? It would be an interesting way to alter the fermentability profile of out of the tin "normal" extracts. An all liquid mash... sorta.

Les - I think that some people are not just using the wheat flour for the cheat haze - they are using it as a carbohydrate source. In situations like a Wit or perhaps a lambic, where you might normally use raw wheat, they are subbing wheat flour. A Graham Sanders trick. I have only ever tried it in a tiny batch just to see what happened in the Beta Glucan / protien / cereal mash part - I think I used the resultant wort to make a starter. But it seemed to work well and it certainly converted.

I just use actual raw wheat if I am feeling so masochistic that I dont use wheat malt - but after I crush it... not a lot of difference between that and commercial flour.

TB


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