# Cider Yeast Starter



## P!N20 (12/1/17)

Planning to do a 'cheat's' cider shortly by putting a pack of Wyeast Belgian Saison 3724* in 20L of preservative free supermarket apple juice.

Never done a cider before, should I make a yeast starter? If so, how much for how long? I was thinking one litre for 48 hours...but that was just a guess, really.

* Using this yeast due to my brewery aka laundry getting really hot in summer, 3724 has a high temperature range...or at least, that's the theory.

Cheers


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## damoninja (12/1/17)

If in doubt why not. 

I'd be giving it some nutrient too. 

Edit: the batch nutrient, not the starter...


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## mofox1 (12/1/17)

This yeast is quite okay with going into the low 30s. Currently have it in a rhubarb Saison sitting at 30.

Note that, in my experience, this yeast takes off quick but then can stall for a week or more at mid attenuation before kicking off again and chewing thru the last 20 or so gravity points (which has taken a couple more weeks at least the previous times I've used it).

Not sure if it will behave the same for fruit sugars... It's possible it will just go nuts on all the simple sugars you are throwing at it. 

Definitely do a starter, if the yeast is fresh I would do a 2L starter and pitch the whole lot when active. If the yeast is old, I'd do a 500ml starter and ferment it out fully before decanting and doing a 2L starter which if pitch when active (~24 - 48hrs). Note I use a stir plate which speeds up the job considerably.


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## P!N20 (12/1/17)

damoninja said:


> I'd be giving it some nutrient too.


Good thinking. Would you just dissolve it in some boiling water before adding to the fermenter?





mofox1 said:


> Not sure if it will behave the same for fruit sugars... It's possible it will just go nuts on all the simple sugars you are throwing at it.
> 
> Definitely do a starter, if the yeast is fresh I would do a 2L starter and pitch the whole lot when active.


Yeah it's a bit of an experiment as I'm pretty limited to what I can brew during summer - usually Saison, which is where I got the idea. 2L starter sounds like the go.

Thanks all!


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

Most yeast will survive quite happily at temps >30 as long as the alcohol is not too high; the problem becomes whether you like the characters they produce at the higher temperatures. I guess you are about to find out.

BTW a big pitch will increase fermentation rate which will in turn increase temperature.

If a slight dilution is not too much of a problem, you could freeze a litre or two of boiling water and throw it in when it gets too warm. To work out the temperature you will reach, use

(litres of ferment * temperature of ferment - kg of ice * 100oC) / (litres of ferment + kg of ice)

which takes into account the enthalpy of fusion of the ice and assumes your freezer is about - 20oC.


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## P!N20 (12/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> If a slight dilution is not too much of a problem, you could freeze a litre or two of boiling water and throw it in when it gets too warm. To work out the temperature you will reach, use
> 
> (litres of ferment * temperature of ferment - kg of ice * 100oC) / (litres of ferment + kg of ice)
> 
> which takes into account the enthalpy of fusion of the ice and assumes your freezer is about - 20oC.


Ah, I'm learning all the time, thanks.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

Just to be clear, that's the temperature your ferment will drop to when the ice is added.

As an example, say you had your 20 litres of juice and it got to 30 oC and looked like it was heading north at a rate of knots. If you added 1 kg of ice, the temp would drop to (30 * 20 - 1 * 100 ) / 21 = 23.8 oC. Of course it will then warm up again, depending on ambient temperature and how much sugar is left.


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## damoninja (16/1/17)

P!N20 said:


> Good thinking. Would you just dissolve it in some boiling water before adding to the fermenter?


Boil it in a cup of juice, no you've got that no need to add water. 

People have said boiling juice ruins it but I've done it when making hopped cider without any issues.


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## wynnum1 (16/1/17)

If you can fit in a non working small chest freezer or old fridge and rotate a 5 liter containers of ice that will keep the temperature down low enough but a freezer is needed to keep refreezing.
over 30 oC is not good.


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