# Berliner Weisse



## Tony

After many years of waiting........ its back:

http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm?website=2

I have ordered some and will be digging up some recipes i have stored in the vaults 

Going to put it in now, so it can sit and rot for a few months and be ready for the warmer weather........ cant wait!


Happy to discuss any recipes or beers people have made or tried for the Berliner Weisse style.

cheers


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## Florian

I've done a few batches.

Typically you'd go something like this:

50% Pils
50% Wheat

a handfull of noble hops added to the mash.
Full step mash and double decoction if you're up for it, otherwise a long rest at 63ish.
Lauter, throw a handful freshly milled grain at the wort, let cool to 40 degrees, keep at 40 for 12 - 24 hours. 
Let cool down to pitching temp, pitch smack pack of the blend. Ferment for 6 month or however long you want, transfer to secondary if you want to (I haven't).

The best this recipe scored was 40 points, the lowest 30. But then again, what do BJCP judges know about a beer most of them have never tried as a commercial example?

If you like rye, you can replace 10 percent of the wheat with rye to get a bit of spice in there, works well for me.


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## tazman1967

Ive got one planned... 50/50m Belgian Pilsner/ Unmalted wheat, low mash temp, Single decoction mash hopped with a Noble hop.
Now it gets interesting... NO boil, just all into a open bucket with a German Ale yeat and a stepped up Lacto starter..
Looking for a yeast/lacto ratio of 3:1. to get the sourness.
Should ferment out in 4 days, then transfer to a secondary for 3 days, then into the bottle with fresh yeast and lacto, and forget about it.
Ill try on with the VSS strain as a side by side comparison.


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## Tony

tazman1967 said:


> Ive got one planned... 50/50m Belgian Pilsner/ Unmalted wheat, low mash temp, Single decoction mash hopped with a Noble hop.
> Now it gets interesting... NO boil, just all into a open bucket with a German Ale yeat and a stepped up Lacto starter..



Ooooo now your talking, i was thinking 50/50 Wey Premium Pils/unmalted wheat with a mash hop, but i love the idea of not boiling it.

I may do a large batch, run half of the wort off into a fermenter unboiled, and boil the other half......... something to considder.

I know the beer i tried years ago make by Les was soured by adding the unboiled liquid from soaking some malted barley.

Might have to get a couple glass carboys me thinks.

cheers


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## tazman1967

Have a read through Kristen Englands Thread on Northern Brewer:
Linkie : http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....;hilit=berliner

Cheers
Peter


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## Florian

Just to clarify, I have never boiled any of my BW either, that's why there is no boil length mentioned in my post. Thought that comes without saying 

EDIT: and Wey premium Pils is what I would typically use as well just to get the colour as light as possible. The stuff is almost white.


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## Weizguy

I used a dilute malt extract wort to make my lacto culture with a handful of unmilled malt barley, and stepped it up. Brendanos and I had a chat about making a lacto culture a while back, and he said he preferred to buy a commercial culture as he liked to know his lacto's "last name". I recall he did well with the Berliner style in the AABC.

I made another culture via sour mash, if you recall, and pitched the sour mash 3 days before the yeast.

I have tasted a small number of beers brewed with the Berliner-weisse PC blend and they all had significant phenolics, which are out of style. Please be aware of your sanitation with a no-boil wort.

For my first 2 BW's, I boiled my wort for 5-10 minutes, as I was not much of a risk-taker at the time. I suppose it was risky enough brewing a sour beer style that was very unusual at the time.

Unmalted wheat will make more of a Belgo-lambic/ turbid mash, rather than a weisse. 

You can add a little lactic acid to increase/balance the sourness at bottling too.

Anyway, don't mention the war. Thanks Tony! <_<


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## tazman1967

Cool, a good heads up on the Malt Florian. I thought the Dingemans was pretty pale. Looks like ill be swapping to the Wey Premium Pills.
I should be putting mine down next week.

Peter


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## felten

One of my best beers so far was a no-boil Berliner weisse following Kristen's method linked above. It wasn't sour enough to be to style, but a great summer beer anyway.


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## Tony

Making this today.

Used 50/50 Weyermann premium pils / Pale wheat malt and 5% acidulated.
handfull of Mt Hood thrown in the mash.

mashed in at 35 deg for about 1 1/2 hours, stepped up to 51 with an infusion and pulled the first decoction.
Raised it to 63 to rest for 15 min than boil it for 10 min.
Add back to mash for 63 deg mash. Pull 2nd decoction after 45 min rest and boil for 10 min.
Add back for 78 deg mash out.
Run off and sparge direct to fermenter (glass carboy) with handfull of fresh cracked premium pils.
let cool and sit till tomorrow afternoon and add smack pack of 3191 Berliner Weisse.
Place in dark under stairs in house and forget it for 3 to 6 months

should be fun.

Question..... does this yeast foam like a rabid dog. Just wondering how far i can fill my carboy up ??? Ive never used one.

cheers


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## brettprevans

Tony said:


> Making this today.
> 
> Used 50/50 Weyermann premium pils / Pale wheat malt and 5% acidulated.
> handfull of Mt Hood thrown in the mash.
> 
> mashed in at 35 deg for about 1 1/2 hours, stepped up to 51 with an infusion and pulled the first decoction.
> Raised it to 63 to rest for 15 min than boil it for 10 min.
> Add back to mash for 63 deg mash. Pull 2nd decoction after 45 min rest and boil for 10 min.
> Add back for 78 deg mash out.
> Run off and sparge direct to fermenter (glass carboy) with handfull of fresh cracked premium pils.
> let cool and sit till tomorrow afternoon and add smack pack of 3191 Berliner Weisse.
> Place in dark under stairs in house and forget it for 3 to 6 months
> 
> should be fun.
> 
> Question..... does this yeast foam like a rabid dog. Just wondering how far i can fill my carboy up ??? Ive never used one.
> 
> cheers


In my experiance none of the funk yeast kraussens much. But then again Ive only ever used rosrlare for my berlinners. 
I dont rrcon youll need 3-6 months if you pitch a goo amount of yeast. And of course depends on how sour you want it.


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## Tony

Thanks mate.

I will leave a bit of room but not too much. 

I'm planning a good old foil cap for the carboy. They have worked for my starters for years!.

cheers


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## QldKev

Tony said:


> Making this today.
> 
> Used 50/50 Weyermann premium pils / Pale wheat malt and 5% acidulated.
> handfull of Mt Hood thrown in the mash.
> 
> mashed in at 35 deg for about 1 1/2 hours, stepped up to 51 with an infusion and pulled the first decoction.
> Raised it to 63 to rest for 15 min than boil it for 10 min.
> Add back to mash for 63 deg mash. Pull 2nd decoction after 45 min rest and boil for 10 min.
> Add back for 78 deg mash out.
> Run off and sparge direct to fermenter (glass carboy) with handfull of fresh cracked premium pils.
> let cool and sit till tomorrow afternoon and add smack pack of 3191 Berliner Weisse.
> Place in dark under stairs in house and forget it for 3 to 6 months
> 
> should be fun.
> 
> Question..... does this yeast foam like a rabid dog. Just wondering how far i can fill my carboy up ??? Ive never used one.
> 
> cheers




I've been thinking of making one for a while, I may give this recipe a go. But I'll sample it after a couple of weeks and then over a period of time. (possibly a week if it's good)

QldKev


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## Tony

I dont know if this will work yet mate 

Im about to start racking it from the mash to the fermenter. 

Oh that sends shivers down my spine just thinking about what could go wrong.


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## Tony

It just feels wrong going from mash to fermenter.

fingers crossed


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## QldKev

Tony said:


> It just feels wrong going from mash to fermenter.
> 
> fingers crossed



I wonder if you'll end up with infected beer


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## Tony

most likely


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## Adam Howard

You may want to chuck an airlock on to prevent acetobacter taking hold during the ferment Tony.


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## Tony

but i dont have a spare kitten to put in it.

The foil will do


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## Adam Howard

Are you going to run with the foil for 3-6 months Tony?


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## Tony

I haven't worked that out yet but i cant see why not. I have an elastic band around it keeping it tight.

If there is any reason why it wont work I'm happy to hear it but my experience with airlocks has never been good and i no longer use them at all..... haven't for years

I have let starters sit for months with the foil lid method and they never had a problem. When i used the red rubber bung and airlock i used to get random infections so i switched to the foil and never had a problem since.


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## QldKev

I've decided I'm going to do Chris's "The slower sour ferment way", so as per above but add in a 15min boil and age it for a couple of months. 

I'm a bit chicken not to boil  

Be interesting to compare how they go. 

QldKev


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## black_labb

I've just recultured some dregs from a bottle of moon dogs"billy ray citrus" which on tasting seems to be atleast partially the lacto culture. 

I'm thinking I may have an attempt at a berliner and maybe even some sort of berliner dulkelweiss or berliner schwartzweiss for something different. 

Is there much significance to the mash steps below saccrification temp for a berliner? I may just do a smaller batch on the stovetop instead of the usual brew system. 

In terms of process I'm thinking a very basic one for me would be


mash hops + 50%wheat 50% malted barley
60 mins @63
10 mins @72
15 mins @78

remove grain and let cool naturally to pitching temp 

Pitch yeast and leave for a few months, bottle with fresh yeast/lacto and prime as usual ???

Would it be benefitial to add some crushed grain into the wort before the cooling and pitching the yeast? I guess that depends on the ratio of lacto to yeast in what I've cultured up?

Sounds fun whatever happens!


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## Tony

I saved the final running's from the mash to compare to the wort in the carboy.

The wort is starting to foam and the leftover mash dregs are still dead and taste ok.

So im figuring its yeast doing the work.

fingers crossed 

I will keep some pics up if it gets interesting


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## Tony

QldKev said:


> I'm a bit chicken not to boil



Bok Bok Bok Bok


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## black_labb

Keep us updated, I'm keen to brew one and would love to learn from your mistakes instead of mine


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## Tony

lucky i have big shoulders........ and a 2nd smack pack of BW yeast


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## Goldenchild

black_labb said:


> I've just recultured some dregs from a bottle of moon dogs"billy ray citrus" which on tasting seems to be atleast partially the lacto culture.


Just did a split double batch BW with Half this cultured yeast and Half the wyeast bweisse.
The moon dog dregs batch smelt and tasted of a wheat sacc yeast after a few days but then turned much funkier and definitely had more then just lacto. I have found a lot of there beers to have a slight Brett twang to it so wouldn't be surprised at all if it's in this too.
I had an awesome pellicle within 2 weeks of ferment! I Found it to be much more lambic in taste and smell which I'm not upset about. In keg now and will be serving around Christmas time so can update then


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## black_labb

goldenchild said:


> Just did a split double batch BW with Half this cultured yeast and Half the wyeast bweisse.
> The moon dog dregs batch smelt and tasted of a wheat sacc yeast after a few days but then turned much funkier and definitely had more then just lacto. I have found a lot of there beers to have a slight Brett twang to it so wouldn't be surprised at all if it's in this too.
> I had an awesome pellicle within 2 weeks of ferment! I Found it to be much more lambic in taste and smell which I'm not upset about. In keg now and will be serving around Christmas time so can update then



Thanks for that, sounds perfect for me to have a play around with!


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## Jase

goldenchild said:


> Just did a split double batch BW with Half this cultured yeast and Half the wyeast bweisse.
> The moon dog dregs batch smelt and tasted of a wheat sacc yeast after a few days but then turned much funkier and definitely had more then just lacto. I have found a lot of there beers to have a slight Brett twang to it so wouldn't be surprised at all if it's in this too.
> I had an awesome pellicle within 2 weeks of ferment! I Found it to be much more lambic in taste and smell which I'm not upset about. In keg now and will be serving around Christmas time so can update then



I have a BW in the fermenter now, and am planning on kegging in the next week. Did you naturally carbonate or use CO2? Is the keg sitting at room temperature or is it being refrigerated at the moment?

Cheers,
Jase.


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## Goldenchild

Jase said:


> I have a BW in the fermenter now, and am planning on kegging in the next week. Did you naturally carbonate or use CO2? Is the keg sitting at room temperature or is it being refrigerated at the moment?
> 
> Cheers,
> Jase.



Carbed the keg with around 200-240g dex from memory around 3.7units co2. When it's sitting for 3 months it might aswell carb up and save the hassle at a later date.
plus I wasn't too worried about upping the abv from 3.0% to whatever it turns out to be. 
Keg is sitting in my mancave which is at a steady temp around 20c I'd say.

I bottled 1 bottle so I can see when the pellicle drops and hopefully the kegs the same and should be ready.
Currently 1.5months in Its still got one.


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## Adam Howard

Was going to knock out one of your LCBA recipe's Tony but the wind here is mental and a 90min boil without wind shielding would've been painful. Dropped in to Grain and Grape to grab some stuff and thought bugger it I'll buy the PC blend and do a BIAB BW in my electic HLT.

Will be doing a 90 min mash at 65-63 (allowing some drop) with 10g old Herbrucker and 40g old Saaz pellets in the mash. Thinking I'll get my volume right at the end of the mash after pulling out the bag, check gravity and then just hold it at about 75-80 for an hour or so to kill any enteric bug (something Chad Yacobsen of Crooked Stave has spoken about) and then run into the carboy and pitch the blend at room temp.

Excited.


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## Jay Cee

Florian said:


> But then again, what do BJCP judges know about a beer most of them have never tried as a commercial example?



What are some locally available commercial examples? I tried one about a year ago at Redoak, despite the suggestion from the bar guy that I try a small sample first (I went for a half pint). And I have to say that it was rather unpleasant. So I'm interested in trying some other offerings of the style.


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## Darkman

Adamski29 said:


> Was going to knock out one of your LCBA recipe's Tony but the wind here is mental and a 90min boil without wind shielding would've been painful. Dropped in to Grain and Grape to grab some stuff and thought bugger it I'll buy the PC blend and do a BIAB BW in my electic HLT.
> 
> Will be doing a 90 min mash at 65-63 (allowing some drop) with 10g old Herbrucker and 40g old Saaz pellets in the mash. Thinking I'll get my volume right at the end of the mash after pulling out the bag, check gravity and then just hold it at about 75-80 for an hour or so to kill any enteric bug (something Chad Yacobsen of Crooked Stave has spoken about) and then run into the carboy and pitch the blend at room temp.
> 
> Excited.


If you're prepared to hold the mash at mash out temperature for and hour to kill any stray bugs why don't you just boil the wort for 15mins instead. I just can't see why you would want to risk isntroducing unwanted bugs when you have the perfect mix of bugs required to make a great BW in the Wyeast blend.


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## black_labb

Jay Cee said:


> What are some locally available commercial examples? I tried one about a year ago at Redoak, despite the suggestion from the bar guy that I try a small sample first (I went for a half pint). And I have to say that it was rather unpleasant. So I'm interested in trying some other offerings of the style.




I don't know of any. Only one I tried was in germany


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## Florian

Jay Cee said:


> What are some locally available commercial examples? I tried one about a year ago at Redoak, despite the suggestion from the bar guy that I try a small sample first (I went for a half pint). And I have to say that it was rather unpleasant. So I'm interested in trying some other offerings of the style.



I think about the only commercially available one in Germany nowadays is the Berliner Kindl Weisse. There used to be Schultheiss Weisse which had a much better reputation, but unfortunately both companies merged and the Schultheiss Weisse disappeared. 
That's what I meant when I was talking about BJCP judges. It's like judging a Bohemian Pilsener but never having drunk a PU or Budvar or the likes before. 
I know Bacchus Brewing in Capalaba is now brewing a Berliner Weisse as well, but unfortunately I haven't tried that one yet.


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## Adam Howard

Heretic Tartuffe is also available here now. It's pretty mild for the style, not bracingly sour but a good intro. I ended up just mashing out at 75 with a dunk sparge and am letting the wort sit for a bit before putting it into the carboy.

Tony, was your wort at 78 degrees when you put it into the glass? I'm thinking I'll put mine in now while hot but my greatest fear is fracturing the glass.


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## Nick JD

Florian said:


> I know Bacchus Brewing in Capalaba is now brewing a Berliner Weisse as well, but unfortunately I haven't tried that one yet.



Just saw the stack of oak barrels thirty feet high with some of them full of BW.


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## NickB

I've been reading the northern brewer link - very keen to brew. Will slot it in at about 10th on the To Brew list


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## brettprevans

best berlinner ive tasted made is from our last collaborative brewday. Made an imperial pils then used the gyle as a berlinner base. spent 2 months on roselare yeast awsome. 

new world pils recipe from brewday
fairly sure we just used some old low AA hops i had in the mash. bought to boil and switched it off.


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## Tony

Adamski29 said:


> Tony, was your wort at 78 degrees when you put it into the glass? I'm thinking I'll put mine in now while hot but my greatest fear is fracturing the glass.



Yeah mate...... i had the mash at 78, and heated my sparge water to 78 or 80 deg before adding it.

dropped it strait in the carboy.

If fills slowly so the heat will soak in slow. If you spot heated it to a high temp quick the expansion may make it crack.

It should be ok..... but dont stand next to it in thongs


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## Adam Howard

Tony said:


> It should be ok.....



Yeah, bit the bullet and chucked it straight in pretty hot. Threw in a handful of grain and chucked it in the fridge set to 30 degrees. Will pitch the smack pack tomorrow. Bastard is taking a very long time to swell.

Super simple brew day. Been a fair while since I brewed in the urn. Bugger all cleaning up!


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## Helles

I would boil the entire mash
Read about it in BYO once dont remember anything but boil the entire mash


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## Tony

My pack was smacked for 36 hrs and didnt swell at all.

pitched it anyway on Monday morning (brewed Sunday arvo) and by Tuesday arvo it was starting to bubble. 

Its now putting along nice

Edit: and i did boil most of the mash........ with a double decoction. But meh...... i want to see what happens. If it goes to shit its cost me a smack pack and 3kg of malt....... I'm not going to have to sell the house.


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## tazman1967

tazman1967 said:


> Ive got one planned... 50/50m Belgian Pilsner/ Unmalted wheat, low mash temp, Single decoction mash hopped with a Noble hop.
> Now it gets interesting... NO boil, just all into a open bucket with a German Ale yeat and a stepped up Lacto starter..
> Looking for a yeast/lacto ratio of 3:1. to get the sourness.
> Should ferment out in 4 days, then transfer to a secondary for 3 days, then into the bottle with fresh yeast and lacto, and forget about it.



Mine is done, two months now in the bottle.. sourness is increasing. It has IMHO developing a " Champagne " taste to it. Im having a taste every month to see how it is coming along..
I will bring some bottles to the QLD Case Swap for people to sample.

Very interesting link in helping me with my recipe: http://youtu.be/_hClp9huB1M 





Cheers
Peter


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## tiprya

tazman1967 said:


> Mine is done, two months now in the bottle.. sourness is increasing. It has IMHO developing a " Champagne " taste to it. Im having a taste every month to see how it is coming along..
> I will bring some bottles to the QLD Case Swap for people to sample.
> 
> Very interesting link in helping me with my recipe: http://youtu.be/_hClp9huB1M



Did you use the approach outlined in that video? i.e. lacto for a week before pitching ale yeast for another week?

I'm going to brew this in a week or so, and hoping this will get good complex sourness quickly, so I can have it ready by christmas.

I'm going to take a whole set of pH readings with my new meter  what a good beer to try it out on.


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## tazman1967

tiprya said:


> Did you use the approach outlined in that video? i.e. lacto for a week before pitching ale yeast for another week?
> 
> I'm going to brew this in a week or so, and hoping this will get good complex sourness quickly, so I can have it ready by christmas.
> 
> I'm going to take a whole set of pH readings with my new meter  what a good beer to try it out on.



I sure did.. made a starter out of the Lacto first. Just like a beer starter but you need to keep it warm ( about 35 Deg) for about 3 days.. I then pitched the Lacto first, then the German Ale.
It needs time still for the sourness to develop.. Christmas may be a bit early.. but its up to your how sour you like your beer.
Best of luck.. its a really nice beer..
Cheers
Peter


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## Tony

I just got mine from under the dark staircase (sitting at about 22 deg) out to check how it was going.

It had got a 2nd wind with the ferment and foamed up and coated the foil cap on the carboy, and the sides of the carboy with yeast and lactic bacteria, which now stank.

I opened the door to the space under the stairs and found what my wife had complained about. It smelt like a dead rat was in there.

So i cleaned up the mess, put on a new sterile foil cap, and had a sniff. It smells good inside....... but i didn't want to persevere for months of conditioning if the beer tasted like doggy poop.

Steralised a bit of tube, and dunked it in, put my finger over the end and got enough out into a little jar for a mouthful.

Pale... almost white. Still cloudy but i don't expect it to be bright clear.
Aroma of lemon, fresh bread......... and ............ well........... acid. Pleasant clean sour funky smell.
Taste is tart, clean and acidic. puckering effect. Some doughy wheaty flours in the background. Massive flavor for a small beer! Left my teeth chalky.

It still has a slight fiz to it and i think that's the lactic bacteria finishing off the beer to complete dryness. 

I an very happy with the tartness and acidity......... its a sour little bitch!

I think i just named it 

Sour Little Bitch.


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## QldKev

A couple of weeks in the fermenter with wy3191 my Berliner Weisse looks really funcky. I've never made a Berliner Weisse before, and realize I've got 2 different bacterias in there. I haven't tasted it yet. Does this look correct for the style?




QldKev


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## stux

Tony said:


> It just feels wrong going from mash to fermenter.
> 
> fingers crossed



It's actually the period way to make ale. Ale was unhopped and unboiled. Beer was hopped and thus boiled and lasted months, where as ale only lasted a few weeks. 

The lager/ale classification came later


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## adryargument

Those Berliner Weisse beers look awesome, inspired me to go all out.

Will do a 60L mash at around ~1.048, run it into the kettle to start recirculating through the chiller to get it to pitching temps.
Then going into a 100L Yalumba red wine barrel and topping up with water for ~1.034 starting gravity for 1/2 months while adding raspberries during fermentation to add to the sourness / make up for evaporation.

Well thats the plan, will see how it ends up turning out :lol: 

Planning to start mashing asap, Only thing holding me up is my Berliner Weisse WLP630 culture.


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## Nick JD

Stux said:


> It's actually the period way to make ale. Ale was unhopped and unboiled. Beer was hopped and thus boiled and lasted months, where as ale only lasted a few weeks.
> 
> The lager/ale classification came later




Wouldn't the period way to make ale involve used tampons and irrational mood swings?


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## adryargument

Alright,

Going to get stuck into this shortly.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 100.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 98.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.031 SG
Estimated Color: 2.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 2.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
6.00 kg Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner (Weyermann Grain 1 48.0 % 
6.00 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 2 48.0 % 
0.50 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 3 4.0 % 
80.00 g Saaz [4.00 %] - Mash 100.0 min Hop 4 2.0 IBUs 
5.0 pkg Berliner Weisse Blend (White Labs #WLP63 Yeast 5 - 
1.0 pkg Orval Dregs Yeast 6 - 
2.00 kg Frozen Raspberries (Primary 0.0 mins) Flavor 7 - 


Mash Schedule: ADA - Berliner Weisse - 63/60 - 72/10 - 78/15
Total Grain Weight: 12.50 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash Step Heat to 63.0 C 63.0 C 60 min 
Mash Step Heat to 72.0 C over 10 min 72.0 C 10 min 
Mash Step Heat to 78.0 C over 6 min 78.0 C 15 min 

Notes:
Fermented in Red Wine barrel w/ blowoff tube.
Orval dregs + Frozen Raspberries going in at end of fermentation.


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## adryargument

What an interesting day.

Took a while... even without a boil.
1.5 hr mash
1 hr sparge
2 hr chill to 20'c
1 hr to fill barrel

Last 60+ hours has pretty much been dedicated to producing a 6+ liter starter.
The lacto should have outpaced the yeast by now and be ready to go. Aiming for a real sour bite.

Ended up with about 56L at 1.066, pumped into barrel, added yeast, filled to 100L.
Should end up around high 3's percentage wise.

Where does one store a 100L barrel?
I had no idea, so i pushed it into a corner and surrounded it in a tarp. It gets about 1 hour of patchy sunlight where it is so it should be fine and remain at a decent temp (20-24).

Starter:





Final resting place:


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## adryargument

At around day 6 after the fermentation completed i added 2KG of raspberry's and orval dregs to introduce some brett.

12 days in, first tastings:
Her aroma takes me back to gueuze's in belgium. Very light, clean, crisp with a light tart sourness with hints of raspberry.
I could drink it now and bloody enjoy it.

However in a few months she should be lovely with a lot more of a punch.

Samples below was taken from the top layers of berry's with a syringe, so they are quite cloudy.


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## Thefatdoghead

I got a pack of wy3191 my Berliner Weisse and am going to put one of these down in a few weeks. Just wondering should I make a starter same as normal with this pack? 
Been through my book's but nothing on starters with this yeast bacteria combo. Just strolling internet for answers now.


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## QldKev

Gav80 said:


> I got a pack of wy3191 my Berliner Weisse and am going to put one of these down in a few weeks. Just wondering should I make a starter same as normal with this pack?
> Been through my book's but nothing on starters with this yeast bacteria combo. Just strolling internet for answers now.



I didn't, as the yeast will overtake the bacteria and result in a less sour beer. 

QldKev


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## tiprya

Yeast blends shouldn't get starters, particularly ones with bacteria; the starter will affect the balance of the blend.


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## Thefatdoghead

Ahh righto i'll just pitch the pack then. Thanks


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## Tony

Well after 2 or 3 months, i racked mine to the keg.

Finished at 1.002 and tastes AMAZING !!!!!

Punches sky in victory 

Clean, dry, tart, pale, and sour, almost chalky on the teeth acidity, but smooth and refreshing.

Should have it carbed up in a few days.... woo hoo


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## Tony

I was thinking about re-using some of the slurry to make another one, but not sure if it will work as well, with the blend balance thing.

Might be worth a try though????

Thoughts ???


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## QldKev

Tony said:


> I was thinking about re-using some of the slurry to make another one, but not sure if it will work as well, with the blend balance thing.
> 
> Might be worth a try though????
> 
> Thoughts ???



For the cost of the grain and hops, I'm going to do a second one on the cake. I doubt it will be the same, but it still may be nice. 

It tastes awesome straight from the fermenter. Can't wait until I get enough bottles together, as I'm not game enough to let this touch my kegs. 

Mine could be infected


----------



## Tony

I put mine in a keg, but i will put a big stamp on it that says............ FUNK

I saved about 100ml of running's and may chuck another one through....... it only takes a few hours and a few kg of malt.

I think i have kick started a like of sour ales......... i see adventure, infection, funk and mould the horizon 

Edit:

Kev..... i just opened your photo that i thought was a UFO sighting, and that looks like a worry. Mine had a clean surface after almost 2.5 months.

Does it smell of nail polish?


----------



## bruce86

I have been keeping an eye on this thread as I want to try one of these. The only beer the missus likes. The feral brewery do a watermelon one. Any ideas of when is best to add fruit to it?


----------



## Tony

Ok.

Just had a thought.

I just made a belgian wit........ and the mash has drained about 6 liters of 1.02something runnings into a SS pot.

Im gunna put this in a 5 liter demijon with a bit of the berliner slurry to see how it goes.

Dont even need to do a brew to see if it works.

I still have a 2nd smack pack for winter........ and will let it sit for 6 months next time 

cheers


----------



## QldKev

It's a ufo flying over the surface of the moon


No bad smells or tastes. It's actually very mild tasting and nice. I should keg it now to drink, 'm just not sure about allowing the Brett in my kegs. 


Here's a better pic I just took. Which looks more like it does.


----------



## Tony

Oh WOW..... that looks incredible!

Very different to the actobacterial infections i have had in the past. Should be good.

Here is what i did with my Belgian Wit runnings.


----------



## QldKev

That looks yummy, I'm probably going to throw some strawberries in some of mine later.


I'm not sure if the bacteria on mine is from the Lactobacillus or the Brettanomyces, as I used the Wyeast 3191 pack. My guess would be moreso the Brettanomyces, but I'm not really sure. It's probably got another month before I'm likely to bottle/keg it up. This one is a Brett infection in it's early stages.


----------



## Tony

Yep that looks like it mate.

I went purely with the lactic sourness and no Brett.

Next beer is going to be a lambic me thinks


----------



## manticle

QldKev said:


> That looks yummy, I'm probably going to throw some strawberries in some of mine later.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if the bacteria on mine is from the Lactobacillus or the Brettanomyces, as I used the Wyeast 3191 pack. My guess would be moreso the Brettanomyces, but I'm not really sure. It's probably got another month before I'm likely to bottle/keg it up. This one is a Brett infection in it's early stages.



Looks similar to the pellicles I've had on my brett beers although most of those have been made with a blend too. Should protect the beer from oxidation etc.


----------



## stux

Looks like my standard house infection 

All SWMBOs damn fruit trees I think.

Funny thing is, I don't like my accidental "bretty sours", but I have a large group of friends who do...


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

Just put down my first berliner on the weekend. This thread was a great help. Had some equipment issues and ended up having to take my mash out and dumping the mash in water. Even though it had only mashed in at 38c it had a decent effect on my eff. Was expecting 1034 and got 1028. Did a 10 min boil for old times sake.

I've pitched a started lacto which is going nuts and the berliner blend will be going in in a couple days. Yay!







When I bottle this one I am going to rack a stronger (1045 maybe) berliner onto the cake and see what happens.

Anyways, some questions.


How long do you guys recommend leaving it? I want it pretty sour and I am fermenting in a keg so oxidation isn't that much of a problem. I was thinking 3 or even more months to get it mega sour, but don't want to wait that long if I don't have to. I know I've seen people talk normal fermentation times early in this thread.

I often see people say 'fresh yeast at bottling' or in this case 'fresh lacto and yeast at bottling'. How is that done? A whole vial mixed in a la bulk priming? One grain of dried yeast per bottle? (LOL)

Clarity - How much clarity shift do you guys see by the end of the ferment? I know it's a cloudy beer anyway, but the unboiled/barely boiled wort was a colour I'd not normally like to see in my beer - though seeing Tony's fruit photo above suggests its probably ok!


----------



## raven19

Re fresh yeast at bottling - I would use some ale yeast slurry along with your priming sugar to ensure proper bottle carbonation.


----------



## adryargument

Mines kicking at 39 days in - i did a taster at 37 days and it was clean dry and mid acidic with a mild-mid sourness - quite chalky. (This is comparing it to the excessive amount of sours i had in Belgium)

One of the best beers i have brewed. Thank god i have 100L of it.
I'll leave it for another 2 months while i am overseas.

Tony: using slurry has been proven to make many awesome beers, 100% brett or lacto can be used. I'm planning to pitch another 100L into my barrel as soon as its emptied. Should raise the sourness a few notches from what i have read, however lacto kills itself at a certain sourness.

I think i need to add some Pediococcus to reach those lambic levels.

Note the raspberries are near not-noticable in mine - maybe a few more months.
It is a nice pink colour - maybe from the wine barrel :/ slight tannins bringing up the rear however they meld quite nice with the sourness.

Edit: My blowoff 25L glass demijohn has a wonderful funk layer. Its like powdered snow. Should have a picture somewhere... Searching...

Yes its an ice cube in my sample....


----------



## joshuahardie

I have two BW going at the moment

One with Wyeast 3191 and the other recultured from dregs of the Billy Ray Citrus.

The 3191 is moving slowly and might be a bit cold at 18 degrees. It dropped 4 points in a week
The BRC was sitting at 24 degrees and has exploded with activity.

As I am fermenting in Jerrycans I was going to opt for a shorter fermentation cycle as my last lot of sour beers in plastic had too much Acetobacter influence.

Does anyone have a successful base fermentation schedule, or is it a just keep tasting it and see scenerio?


----------



## tiprya

My BW seems to be stuck at around 3.9 pH. A good BW should be 3.3-3.5.

It is around 2.5 months old. Is the answer just more time?

I'm also fermenting in a jerry can - should I get it into bottles to age/sour further?


----------



## Goldenchild

joshuahardie said:


> I have two BW going at the moment
> 
> One with Wyeast 3191 and the other recultured from dregs of the Billy Ray Citrus.
> 
> The 3191 is moving slowly and might be a bit cold at 18 degrees. It dropped 4 points in a week
> The BRC was sitting at 24 degrees and has exploded with activity.
> 
> As I am fermenting in Jerrycans I was going to opt for a shorter fermentation cycle as my last lot of sour beers in plastic had too much Acetobacter influence.
> 
> Does anyone have a successful base fermentation schedule, or is it a just keep tasting it and see scenerio?


Good to hear you put down the split batch with those dregs josh
My batch with the dregs was also explosive pretty sure I read it was a wheat sach strain in it so kicks off and ferments quick as appose to the Berliner blend which has a German ale(happily stand corrected).

As for ferment schedule I remember the 3191 was still going 2 weeks after the brc. Pretty sure I kegged first one around 5-6weeks.bulk primed and left in the keg for over a month can't remember exactly

Ps. Have a chat to Duane I ordered in some glass carboys and pretty sure he has one left.


----------



## Goldenchild

tiprya said:


> I'm also fermenting in a jerry can - should I get it into bottles to age/sour further?



If it isn't showing signs of oxidisation then i'd leave it for another few weeks let the lactose do it's thing. Not sure where I read it but It said 3 months a good estimate to when it should be done.


----------



## Hadrian

I've got a Berliner in a fermenter at the moment at ~40deg with some fresh unmashed grain to inoculate with lacto...
Had a look this afternoon and it has produced _heaps_ of gas which smells pretty bad. ( stupidly forgot to add an airlock so the build up of gas has blown up the fermenter like a football.
I'm concerned about the bad smell but the taste is not offensive. I'm planning to add White labs berliner weiss blend tomorrow.

Should I ditch this or is the smell okay?


----------



## pmastello

goldenchild said:


> Ps. Have a chat to Duane I ordered in some glass carboys and pretty sure he has one left.


Too late, I got the last one on Saturday!
I'm sure he'll get some more though if you ask him - and he remembers.


----------



## brendanos

Other than watching Jess Caudhill's presentations, I would recommend:

50% pils malt
45% wheat malt
5% acidulated

Mash at 60 - 68 (I don't think it is critical)
Mash hop 1 plug old low alpha hops
Lauter and raise to 100C but don't boil
Target OG <1.030
Chill to 45C
Ferment with 5335 2 - 7 days at 40 - 45C
Chill to 20C and ferment with 1007 or US05
After primary add Brett (I have had good results with all strains) and condition for a few months before bottling
Bottle in champagne bottles with loads of sugar (10 - 12g/L)
Wait 6 - 12 months
Enjoy!

FWIW I won best wheat beer at the PRBS 3 years in a row with 3 different batches, won best farmhouse at AABC 2010 and 2nd place in 2011.

Entering it in comps has been a rollercoaster - some times I have expected beer of show and scored less than 20, other times scoring 47 and 48. It is a hard style to judge - especially for inexperienced judges or those lacking confidence. You can carbonate it to within an inch of it's life and by the time it reaches the judges it will have no head and be marked down for "lacking stylistic characteristics". You can't win em all!

Patience is key to this style. Some of mine have tasted pretty foul when young (medicinal, smokey, sulphury) - just wait it out. They are generally best once they have dropped clear, which may take forever, but it is worth the wait.


----------



## joshuahardie

What FG are people getting with these.

Both my BW's mentioned in a previous post have now dropped to 1004, the Wyeast blend is showing some subtle lacto notes, and tastes like a light witbier.
The Billy Ray Citrus yeast version is not showing much tartness/sourness yet.

How long are people leaving these beers in primary fermentaiton?
Is anyone doing a secondary?
and lastly, with these lacto blends, is everyone retiring these plastic fermenters for sours only, or can lacto be cleaned out of plastic effectivly?


----------



## QldKev

joshuahardie said:


> What FG are people getting with these.
> 
> Both my BW's mentioned in a previous post have now dropped to 1004, the Wyeast blend is showing some subtle lacto notes, and tastes like a light witbier.
> The Billy Ray Citrus yeast version is not showing much tartness/sourness yet.
> 
> How long are people leaving these beers in primary fermentaiton?
> Is anyone doing a secondary?
> and lastly, with these lacto blends, is everyone retiring these plastic fermenters for sours only, or can lacto be cleaned out of plastic effectivly?


Not sure where mine currently is at, but BeerSmith shows 1.007 FG, I'm guessing it would drop more than that.
Mine is still in the primary fermenter, since 13-Nov-2012
None of beer beers get secondary anymore (since about 5 years ago)
My fermenter is marked so a normal beer will never be made in it again. Also, I will be bottling it and not kegging.


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## joshuahardie

I am getting a very strong acetone smell coming from my BW.
I fermented at 18 degreess for a week, then left it at ambient after that.
I am also fermenting in a willow jerry can if it makes any difference.

General research tells me that nail polish remover smells are the result of high ferments, or poor quality plastics, but that is with a normal sach yeast.

Does that rule ring true for lacto beers?


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## raven19

Plastic smells could be a wild yeast infection too.


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## joshuahardie

Totally could be that.
It is fermenting next to a lambic

However the lambic does not have the same smell.

But certainly by the fact that these two fermenters are side by side, it could of been cross contamination, even though I thought my process was solid at the time.


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## Bada Bing Brewery

Going for my first BW (thanks Florian).

2 questions

1 - Got a wyeast BW pack. Can i split this as you usually would???? What would you do a starter with, some cooled BW wort from the batch?

2 - The thought of bottling makes me feel sad and depressed. I have PET bottles but would rather keg. I understand this needs a big whack of CO2. Anybody done it and any problems???

After a fair bit of reading I'm going for:

Berliner Weisse (23L)
49% wey pils
49% wey wheat
2% acid

Step mash - 1.5hr @ 55C, 1 hr @ 65C, 15mins 78C mashout 

Handfull of wey pils grain in the 65C mash

No boil - still tossing up if I'll do a decoction.

Hall Mittlefrusch to 10 IBU's in mash

Wyeast BW @ 20C and ramp to 24C after 3-4 days

Any help appreciated
Cheers
BBB


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## Bada Bing Brewery

EPIC FAIL - Infection ......... The wyeast BW pack was from jun 2012 - tried it on a stir plate for 12 hours. The starter did move a bit on the refracto so I thought there was life but helaas ........... down the shitter.... 
Next one I'll try Brendanos's procedure.
Cheers
BBB


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## Tony

All i did with mine was mash and drain strait to the fermenter and tip in the pack of berliner weise blend that failed to swell

It took about 5 weeks to finnish fermenting and went down to 1.003 or so from memory.

i also chucked in a handfull of freshly cracked weyermann pilsner malt, pushed under the stairs and let it rot for 3 months

I filled 5 champagne bottles to age. No fresh yeast, just some dex for carb.

The corks have pushed up on the wire cages and they are slowly settling out clear so i assume they are carbed.

We will see come comp time


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

Serious horseblanket and vegetable soup aroma's ......... I didnt taste it but I can taste it now if you know what I mean - the smell permeates....
the laundry started to get a whiff so it was time to move it along.
I threw some uncracked grain in the mash as well Tony...... 
Chalk one up too experience.
Cube down, cube down people
cheers
BBB


----------



## brettprevans

Hmmm this madewme think of doing a belgian wheat strong ale then running a no boil gyle type berlinner. Hmmm roselare.

Ive got the last of my other berlinner in beerfest. Lwts see how it does. 

Make sure u report back tony.


----------



## adryargument

2.5 months red wine barrel oak aged berliner weisse with 2KG of raspberries.

Just kegged 40L of my Weisse and then added 60L into a fermenter for further aging.

So far its fantastic warm, can't wait until its cold so i can force carb one of the kegs.
Finished on ~1.001.

Has a light pink golden colour.
Its dry, tart, sour, chalky (Forces you to smile as it puckers your cheeks).
Consistency of water and has that 'wet' water mouth feel.
The oak comes through quite strong, however its nicely balanced by the sourness.
Raspberries are there in the background, very subtle, 2kg was all i could afford on the day, would of benefited with another 5-10kg.

Hopefully the brett starts kicking in shortly, however theres nothing left for them to eat 




That is currently pumping, its a very light pink straw colour in the tube.

Lastly i just dropped another 100L of the below into the barrel, should be extra super funky (est 4.5%):
----------------------------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6.00 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 1 42.0 %
4.00 kg Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner (Weyermann Grain 2 28.0 %
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) ( Grain 3 21.0 % (Ran out of pilsner grrrr)
0.30 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 4 2.1 %
80.00 g Aged Hop [1.00 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 5 0.8 IBUs


Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash Step Heat to 45.0 C for 15 min
Mash Step Heat to 50.0 C over 5 min 50.0 C 15 min
Mash Step Heat to 65.0 C over 10 min 65.0 C 45 min
Mash Step Heat to 70.0 C over 5 min 70.0 C 30 min
Mash Step Heat to 76.0 C over 6 min 76.0 C 15 min
Sparge @ 68.0 C

Mashed,
No boil,
Chilled
and barreled.


----------



## brettprevans

According to jusges mine was too sour. Wtf?! Roselare yeast is awsome imo


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

citymorgue2 said:


> According to jusges mine was too sour. Wtf?! Roselare yeast is awsome imo


Too sour? No such thing.


----------



## fcmcg

citymorgue2 said:


> According to jusges mine was too sour. Wtf?! Roselare yeast is awsome imo


CM...
After getting some of my results back from Beerfest , consistency from the judges and maybe understanding some of the styles isn't their strong point...1 beer , 3 judges , 2 say it hits targets and one says it doesn't...
Last year a club member got a comment from a judge that because his AIPA lacked noticeably in the cascade hop department , it wasn't true to style lol


----------



## brettprevans

fergthebrewer said:


> CM...
> After getting some of my results back from Beerfest , consistency from the judges and maybe understanding some of the styles isn't their strong point...1 beer , 3 judges , 2 say it hits targets and one says it doesn't...
> Last year a club member got a comment from a judge that because his AIPA lacked noticeably in the cascade hop department , it wasn't true to style lol


mate we all know how judging goes. My post was more a comment on roselare being good for this style imo. All good buddy


----------



## manticle

You want consistency (ie all judges confer and basically agree with the most vocal through power of suggestion) or you want proper independent judging from 3, possibly very different palates with different sensitivities and different experience?
Judges do make some bad/odd calls sometimes but it's amateur beer judged by amateur judges. Reading the same comments 3 times on a feedback sheet isn't an indication of good judging.

I've had many a comment that makes me scratch my head (old uk ipa, chocolate esters etc) and had beers get a 42 from one judge and a 29 from another (rectified to 7 point spread) but that's how it works. Anyone who expects that every judge will be spot on is deluding themselves and needs to sit at the judging table more often.
Not specifically directed at you guys that last bit as I'm sure you have both sat there many times, but worth re-iterating.
Sorry for OT.


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

It feels like mine's been in there for ages, but I realised it's only been six weeks. Temp has been a bit variable (19-27) since primary finished as I've used the fridge for other things. It's still offgassing like a fat man on curry and has a nice pellicle.

I think I'll throw it off into secondary now though...I brewed up a stronger ( ~1042 - out of style) one today that I want to pitch onto the cake...onward and upward...


----------



## QldKev

I've got mine finally kegged up and drinking. It was in the fermenter since oct/nov last year. Carb'd up pretty hard, and drinking really nice. Not as chalky on the teeth as I would expect, but the smell is very wet horse blanket. The taste is nothing like the smell and is a great drinker on our hot days. 

I dropped a second batch onto the full yeast cake to see how it goes. Be a couple of months but it fired up and is off. (even though due to not checking temps the wort was 45c when it got dropped onto the cake.)

QldKev


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

Tony said:


> All i did with mine was mash and drain strait to the fermenter and tip in the pack of berliner weise blend that failed to swell
> 
> It took about 5 weeks to finnish fermenting and went down to 1.003 or so from memory.
> 
> i also chucked in a handfull of freshly cracked weyermann pilsner malt, pushed under the stairs and let it rot for 3 months
> 
> I filled 5 champagne bottles to age. No fresh yeast, just some dex for carb.
> 
> The corks have pushed up on the wire cages and they are slowly settling out clear so i assume they are carbed.
> 
> We will see come comp time


I decided to rack mine today. Had dropped down to 1.002 in six weeks. Sample fits the bill but it could be more sour. It started a bit light (1028) and feels a bit thin, but it was a not quite cold, uncarbonated sample, which wouldn't have helped.

I've put some crushed grain with 5l of it in a demi, but the main 15l was racked as is. Is it actually going to get any more sour off the cake and without extra grain? Perhaps I should have just bottled it...


----------



## Tony

mine changed a lot in flavour after about 2 months in the fermenter. It developed a big tart sourness to ballance the sweet, low bitterness of the beer.

I added the crushed grain to the demijohn when the wort temp had dropped to 40 deg, to get the lacto bugs happening early, and just let it all sit in the demijohn for the 3 months.

These sour beers require time and patience. THey are not your regular 2 weeks grain to brain beers.


----------



## joshuahardie

Sadly my Berliner made its way straight to the drain.

Fermented at 18 degrees in a brand new (and cleaned) willow jerry.
Had such a massive acetobacter hit, it gave me a stomach ache just breathing in the fumes. Acetone smell was horrendous.

Very dissapointed, and would love some tips to avoid this again.

side question. after an infection like this, can the fermenter be used in the future for other sour beers?


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

joshuahardie said:


> Sadly my Berliner made its way straight to the drain.
> 
> Fermented at 18 degrees in a brand new (and cleaned) willow jerry.
> Had such a massive acetobacter hit, it gave me a stomach ache just breathing in the fumes. Acetone smell was horrendous.
> 
> Very dissapointed, and would love some tips to avoid this again.
> 
> side question. after an infection like this, can the fermenter be used in the future for other sour beers?


I feel your pain .... also had a nasty infection (the unwanted type of course). I'm going to try brendanos style next time. Good luck. Got any Lacto???? CB, Nev are out of it ...
I would napisan the cube and reuse for another crack.
Cheers
BBB


----------



## beerbog

I have just put s BW into a glass carboy, Jamil's recipe, with an OG of 1029. I am using Whiye labs lacto and Euro ale yeast. I added WLP677 first, and after 2 days it is showing a nice krausen. I was just wondering, what would happen if I didn't pitch the WLP011?
Would it still ferment out with just the lacto yeast?
I'm not game to try it, I am going to pitch the Euro ale this arvo, just curious if any one has fermented one out with just lacto yeast, as it does have a good looking krausen on it. :beerbang:


----------



## brettprevans

joshuahardie said:


> Sadly my Berliner made its way straight to the drain.
> 
> Fermented at 18 degrees in a brand new (and cleaned) willow jerry.
> Had such a massive acetobacter hit, it gave me a stomach ache just breathing in the fumes. Acetone smell was horrendous.
> 
> Very dissapointed, and would love some tips to avoid this again.
> 
> side question. after an infection like this, can the fermenter be used in the future for other sour beers?


just clean it properly. So many threads on here about cleaning equipment after infections and funky brewing. Clean it properly and its fine. 

acetobacter is a piece of piss to get rid of. Its the other buggers u really need to worry about.


----------



## brettprevans

Gibbo1 said:


> I have just put s BW into a glass carboy, Jamil's recipe, with an OG of 1029. I am using Whiye labs lacto and Euro ale yeast. I added WLP677 first, and after 2 days it is showing a nice krausen. I was just wondering, what would happen if I didn't pitch the WLP011?
> Would it still ferment out with just the lacto yeast?
> I'm not game to try it, I am going to pitch the Euro ale this arvo, just curious if any one has fermented one out with just lacto yeast, as it does have a good looking krausen on it. :beerbang:


regarding fermenting purely with lacto. Well think about brewing. What does yeast eat? Sugars. Now if u pitch a primary yeast that eats most of the sugar then u pitch a funky yeast that only has a little food and thus only has a little active time and a mild result. Which is why most books will say to add about 2/3 thru ferment. Unless ur using a funk blend that's designed to be used as a primary yeast (like wyeast roselare). 

Now if u add something like lacto as a primary whats going to happen. U maximise the characteristics. So with lacto very tart. I once used brettc as a primary yeast on a cider and it was ultra tart. Awsome but bordering on too much. Add it 1^2 -2/3 way thru a ferment and its awsome.


----------



## QldKev

joshuahardie said:


> Sadly my Berliner made its way straight to the drain.
> 
> Fermented at 18 degrees in a brand new (and cleaned) willow jerry.
> Had such a massive acetobacter hit, it gave me a stomach ache just breathing in the fumes. Acetone smell was horrendous.
> 
> Very dissapointed, and would love some tips to avoid this again.
> 
> side question. after an infection like this, can the fermenter be used in the future for other sour beers?


Which method did you use,
Boil or boil free
Handful of grain into fermenter or smack pack of yeast blend.

I went the safer way and done a quick boil, then used a smack pack. I was too worried about the risk of bad things happening.


----------



## brettprevans

QldKev said:


> Which method did you use,
> Boil or boil free
> Handful of grain into fermenter or smack pack of yeast blend.
> 
> I went the safer way and done a quick boil, then used a smack pack. I was too worried about the risk of bad things happening.


 aquick 5 min boil wont hurt it. Palmer and mosher reccomed a 5-10min boil. AAlternatively bring it to boil and turn off should kill most stuff. I havent ever done a proper mash only no boil.


----------



## beerbog

citymorgue2 said:


> regarding fermenting purely with lacto. Well think about brewing. What does yeast eat? Sugars. Now if u pitch a primary yeast that eats most of the sugar then u pitch a funky yeast that only has a little food and thus only has a little active time and a mild result. Which is why most books will say to add about 2/3 thru ferment. Unless ur using a funk blend that's designed to be used as a primary yeast (like wyeast roselare).
> 
> Now if u add something like lacto as a primary whats going to happen. U maximise the characteristics. So with lacto very tart. I once used brettc as a primary yeast on a cider and it was ultra tart. Awsome but bordering on too much. Add it 1^2 -2/3 way thru a ferment and its awsome.


I did a 15 min boil, then cubed. When I put it into the carboy, I pitched the lacto first as Jamil said if you want more sourness, pitch the lacto a couple of days ahead of the 011. If you want less sourness, then pitch them at the same time, way less sourness then pitch the lcto when the 011 has done most of its work.
The reason I asked the question was because with just the plain lacto, it did start fermenting just like a normal yeast, I didn't think it would do that.
I've also read that commercial lacto's don't really put much out in terms of sourness unless you leave them for about a year. I want to ideally pull mine out and bottle it after about a month, then let it condition. :drinks:


----------



## brettprevans

Gibbo1 said:


> I did a 15 min boil, then cubed. When I put it into the carboy, I pitched the lacto first as Jamil said if you want more sourness, pitch the lacto a couple of days ahead of the 011. If you want less sourness, then pitch them at the same time, way less sourness then pitch the lcto when the 011 has done most of its work.
> The reason I asked the question was because with just the plain lacto, it did start fermenting just like a normal yeast, I didn't think it would do that.
> I've also read that commercial lacto's don't really put much out in terms of sourness unless you leave them for about a year. I want to ideally pull mine out and bottle it after about a month, then let it condition. :drinks:


straight commercial lactic acid gives a sourness but very 1 dimentional and its a bit harsh when u add lots to try and increase soureness. So nothing really beats the real deal. The only positive to lactic acid is it isnt alive so it doesnt infect your bottles kegs etc.


----------



## joshuahardie

QldKev said:


> Which method did you use,
> Boil or boil free
> Handful of grain into fermenter or smack pack of yeast blend.
> 
> I went the safer way and done a quick boil, then used a smack pack. I was too worried about the risk of bad things happening.


15 min boil, and I used the smack pack yeast blend.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Don't think he has posted in this yet but would be great to get Andrewqld's opinion on the BerlinaWeisse. He presented one at the gala dinner at ANHC this year and it was outstanding!!

I really should have taken notes but all the beer got the better of me.....


----------



## adryargument

adryargument said:


> 2.5 months red wine barrel oak aged berliner weisse with 2KG of raspberries.
> Just kegged 40L of my Weisse and then added 60L into a fermenter for further aging.


19 days in keg.
Tastes great, once its carbed up to 100-120 kpi it has quite a refreshing hit. Extra carbonation really lifts up the sourness - has quite a bite. Quite chalky.

The 60L fermenter i used as a secondary has a think layer of pellicle, very shardy and thick - breaks up like dried paint when i give it a light shake. To starve off acetobacter i just added 100g of dextrose to promote a light CO2 layer.

Will add it into 3 different bunnings fermenters with Cherries / Raspberries / Blueberries in another fortnight or two.

---------

Taste tested the wine barrel, is a straw colour with a sour bite. Seems to be aging incredible quick with the pre-existing microbes.


----------



## brendanos

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Don't think he has posted in this yet but would be great to get Andrewqld's opinion on the BerlinaWeisse. He presented one at the gala dinner at ANHC this year and it was outstanding!!
> 
> I really should have taken notes but all the beer got the better of me.....


That was mine!


----------



## brendanos

Gibbo1 said:


> I did a 15 min boil, then cubed. When I put it into the carboy, I pitched the lacto first as Jamil said if you want more sourness, pitch the lacto a couple of days ahead of the 011. If you want less sourness, then pitch them at the same time, way less sourness then pitch the lcto when the 011 has done most of its work.
> The reason I asked the question was because with just the plain lacto, it did start fermenting just like a normal yeast, I didn't think it would do that.
> I've also read that commercial lacto's don't really put much out in terms of sourness unless you leave them for about a year. I want to ideally pull mine out and bottle it after about a month, then let it condition. :drinks:


If you are using the Wyeast 5335 Lactobacillus it won't do anything once alcoholic fermentation has started. It is sensitive to alcohol and low pH so will pack it in as soon as your start a Sacc ferment, and only consumes a relatively small amount of simple sugars (which brewers yeast will snap up pretty quick otherwise). Pitching it into a fermented beer is a waste of money and bacteria. You could use Pediococcus, which will continue to produce a decent amount of lactic acid but will also produce other flavour compounds. Brettanomyces will continue to produce lactic acid for 12+ months.


----------



## beerbog

brendanos said:


> If you are using the Wyeast 5335 Lactobacillus it won't do anything once alcoholic fermentation has started. It is sensitive to alcohol and low pH so will pack it in as soon as your start a Sacc ferment, and only consumes a relatively small amount of simple sugars (which brewers yeast will snap up pretty quick otherwise). Pitching it into a fermented beer is a waste of money and bacteria. You could use Pediococcus, which will continue to produce a decent amount of lactic acid but will also produce other flavour compounds. Brettanomyces will continue to produce lactic acid for 12+ months.



Is WLP677 the same? :unsure:


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

brendanos said:


> That was mine!


My mistake mate, it was a long couple of days :chug:

Hats of to you, think i had three on the night!!


----------



## brendanos

Gibbo1 said:


> Is WLP677 the same? :unsure:


I haven't used it but it sounds awesome. It is a different strain to Wyeast and produces an enzyme which allows it to ferment maltose, maltotriose and raffinose (so you may not need saccharomyces)


----------



## brewtas

I'm just drinking the first bottle of my second attempt at a Berliner. Last time I did a 15 minute boil but this time I only gave it 20 min @ 70C to pasteurise and the malt flavour is so much better. A really nicely rounded dough-like bready kind of thing. Delicious.

Mashed as normal (BIAB in an urn) with 50/50 BM pils and wheat and then when I mashed out and pulled the bag I let the wort cool to ~40C, added a handful of grain and covered the surface with gladwrap. I used a STC-1000 to keep the temp at 38C and around 30 hours later I pulled the gladwrap out, chucked a handful of hops in and heated it up to 70C to pasteurise. Chilled, fermented with WY1272 and it's drinking very nicely 3 weeks from mashing. :chug:


----------



## beers

brendanos said:


> I haven't used it but it sounds awesome. It is a different strain to Wyeast and produces an enzyme which allows it to ferment maltose, maltotriose and raffinose (so you may not need saccharomyces)


It's a very mellow & not as sharp as the wyeast strains. I've recently used it in a no boil BW. A nice big healthy fermenting pitch, with a 3 day head start before pitching Euro Ale. It has been in the bottle for close to 2 months now, & still too soft & mellow for my liking. I've since read of brewers doing 100% ferments with this strain & getting the same results. I'm thinking it would be an interesting strain to pitch along with the wyeast strain, & no sacc.


----------



## manticle

I'm looking at doing a lacto sour peach wit and some of the souring processes in this thread seem relevant enough to save me posting a new thread.

I'm looking at something like this:


*Sour Peach wit*

*Size:* 22 liters
*Color:* 4 HCU (~4 SRM) 
*Bitterness: *14 IBU
*OG:* 1.047
*FG:* 1.008
*Alcohol:* 5.0% v/v (4.0% w/w)
*Grain:* 2.5kg Dingemans Pilsner
2.5kg Raw wheat

Cereal mash wheat?

Either food grade lactic, some acidulated or a small portion of sour mash added back in.
*Mash:* 70% efficiency
TEMP: 55/62/68/72/78
TIME: 5 /15/50/10/10
Double decoction between 62 and 728
*Boil: 90 *minutes SG 1.032 32 liters
*Hops:* 30g Styrian Goldings (3.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Styrian Goldings (aroma)

Ferment out with Wyeast forbidden fruit.

Rack onto 3kg of peaches or add grain bag full of peaches to demijohn

I'm hoping for a few suggestions from the lacto guys. Preferring to avoid a lacto culture at this stage since I want some character from the FF yeast and to balance the apricot flavour from styrians and peach from the fruit with tart, refreshing rathern than mouth pucker sour.

Anybody cereal mash their unmalted wheat?


----------



## brettprevans

The food grade lactic works but is one dimensional. But good for experiments. Never used raw wheat. Sounds great tjough. 
Ive got plenty of forbidden fruit yeast slurry if u want it.


----------



## vykuza

I have a white peach saison nearing the end of the keg at the moment, and I can attest that just adding peaches and fermenting them out will add a lot of tartness without any outside help.

If you want more sourness I've had a nice success adding a smack pack of lacto culture to a mash, and leaving it for 24 hours to develop and got loads of very satisfyingly balanced lactic acidity from that. As the boil puts an end to the sour mash process, the sourness is for all intents and purposes, set at that level. I've only done it once though, so I wouldn't call it a perfected science.


----------



## manticle

Cheers for the responses guys.

Should be right for the FF culture CMII but cheers.

How did you treat the peaches Nick? Any pasteurisation etc or straight rack on top?


----------



## vykuza

The peaches were blanched to peel them, chopped and frozen. Then I just thawed at room temp and threw them in the fermenter at the "end" of the primary fermentation. It kicked off again of course.


----------



## manticle

Cheers.


----------



## Ronan

Wow, blown away by this thread. 've breweed a few awitha 15 min boil and found DMS in by finished product. I think i might 'grow some' and go the no boil method.

One questionm though; i was told to begin at 40 degrees with the bacteria ,3 days prior to pitching the yeast.

Any thoughts on this process?


----------



## adryargument

Should give a good start to the lacto ronan.

So just kegged my 110L of Berliner Weisse. Quite clear and sour after 3.5 months in the barrel. No signs of pelicle in the barrel, plenty in the blow off demijohn with a distinct nail polish aroma.

Also kegged the remaining 60L of my raspberry Berliner Weisse that I started in early dec. Thick layer of pelicle and tons of nail polish paint turps death aroma. Beer under the pelicle is great!!

Very satisfied with how they have turned out. Distinct clean profile with a sour chalky bite.

Nom nom nom - driving to brisbane tomorrow with all the sour and 3 wine barrels in/on the car.


----------



## OneEye

So I'm planing on putting down a BW tomorrow and am settling on the process to use. I'm posting here because I want you guys to jump in and tell me where I'm going wrong or if I've missed something but here is the plan!

Simple 60/40 Pils/Wheat grist
Mash as per normal then run off into the kettle which I will have purged with CO2
When it gets to around 45 degrees I'll thrown in some unmilled wheat malt
I'll probably connect CO2 to my kettle tap and bubble some through to make sure there's no O2 hanging around
Cover the wort with cling wrap and then let it sit for a few days, tasting it until I get to the sourness I want
Then I'll boil her up and treat it just like a normal beer from here on out.

Bound to be missing something! Right?


----------



## joshuahardie

Won't you need to make sure that the wort is held at 45 for the length of time you want the sourness to develop.


----------



## OneEye

Yeah I have an electric kettle. Going to have an stc keeping the temps up


----------



## brewtas

Sounds good, moosebeer. You don't need to worry about the CO2, just lay the gladwrap flat on the surface of the wort.


----------



## Weizguy

moosebeer said:


> So I'm planing on putting down a BW tomorrow and am settling on the process to use. I'm posting here because I want you guys to jump in and tell me where I'm going wrong or if I've missed something but here is the plan!
> 
> Simple 60/40 Pils/Wheat grist
> Mash as per normal then run off into the kettle which I will have purged with CO2
> When it gets to around 45 degrees I'll thrown in some unmilled wheat malt
> I'll probably connect CO2 to my kettle tap and bubble some through to make sure there's no O2 hanging around
> Cover the wort with cling wrap and then let it sit for a few days, tasting it until I get to the sourness I want
> Then I'll boil her up and treat it just like a normal beer from here on out.
> 
> Bound to be missing something! Right?


I have achieved good acidity by adding ~5% of the grist as a sour mash to the main grist.

Perhaps you will get too much acidity if you sour the entire mash. Just keep tasting and checking I suppose.


----------



## mje1980

Les, does that mean you sour 5% of the grist, say for 24 hours, then add to the mash, and then boil, and brew as normal??.


----------



## Weizguy

Yep. I actually soured some grain for about 3 days in a stainless pot in a double boiler setup.

Maintained the heat for 3 days or so, and then took about 250-500g of that sour mash and added it to my grain at mash-in. Brewed as normal.

Made a nice soured Pale Ale as per BYO mag recipe here, as well as Berliner weisse.


----------



## mje1980

Ok thanks mate. Might be a good way to "dip me toes" haha. Might try it in a saison also.

3 days would be pretty damn sour I'd imagine?. I've left my tun overnight for cleaning and had it start souring nicely.


----------



## Weizguy

Yeah, pretty sour.


----------



## OneEye

I'm not really souring the whole 'mash' per se.... really just taking a small amount of grain and using that to sour my wort. I've just finished the mash and I'm waiting for it to cool to about 40 before I throw my stocking full of grain in. Exciting times!


----------



## vykuza

My method for this is pretty easy. I mash in an esky as normal, let the mash cool to 45ish and pitch a pack of lactobacillus. Leave for 24 hours, sparge, boil and ferment like a normal wort. Gets good results!


----------



## OneEye

12 hours in and it's already souring up quite nicely and no funky smells that I've heard about. I ended up putting gladwrap over the lid and blew co2 down the sight glass of the urn until the gladwrap swelled, let it out and then repeated a few times until I was sure there was no oxygen left so the lacto is fermenting in a relatively all anaerobic environment... eliminating those funky smells! Got my starter going so will hopefully have this boiled up, coiled and pitched tomorrow morning!


----------



## spryzie

Thought I'd mention my little experiment.

30g Ale Malt and 30g Wheat Malt in 550ml water kept roughly around 65 degrees for an hour (very rough - hard to keep such a small volume steady on an electric stovetop).

OG of 1030.

Cooled to about 50 degrees (I believe lactobacillus can survive for a little while up to 65 degrees) and poured into 750ml PET plastic bottle.

Added 1/4 cup of grain. Expelled air and sealed.

Placed in yogurt maker which is about 38 degrees.

Next morning, bottle had swelled. Took a whiff - not unpleasant like my first attempt with a yoghurt culture which smelled like vomit.

Plan on making a 6L test batch with 50/50 Ale Malt/Wheat Malt to 1030 on the weekend. Will inoculate with my lacto starter for 24 hours keeping FV at about 30 degrees (best my heat belt will do - probably better to be closer to 40). Then pitch US05 and drop to 16-18 degrees.


----------



## Thefatdoghead

My BW has been sitting in the glass for about 6 weeks now. Eric Warner is saying to ferment for 4 days or until final gravity then bottle and condition @ 15 degrees for 3 months. Save a few bottles for a year or so to sour up more. 

Im not going to bottle so should I just rack it into a keg and let it condition at 15 for a year or just leave it in glass on the yeast?


----------



## grimpanda

Gav80,

Kegging and conditioning at cellar temp would be effectively the same as bottle ageing. I can't imagine sitting it on the yeast for that long would be a good thing. Lactobacillus is anaerobic anyway, so keeping it under CO2 won't slow the souring, and will help stave off acetobacter etc.

Anyway...

I just 'brewed' my first BW today. 50/50 pils & malted wheat and 30g homegrown hallertauer flowers thrown in.

Did a step mash, 50c for 30mins, 63c for 75mins, 68c for 15 mins, 74c for 10 mins.

The mash is cooling down now - when it drops below 50 i'll throw in a handful of uncracked pils and incubate for a couple of days.

Once those lactic critters have done their job I plan on doing a sparge to collect my total volume to go straight into the fermenter.

*I'm wondering though, if using the normal 74ºC sparge will significantly reduce the lactic bacteria...? Am I better off just doing a luke-warm sparge, or even a cold one (which would have the bonus of dropping the wort down to pitching temp)?*

I plan on fermenting with US-05 and kegging, and letting it be a beer that continues to develop sourness over time.

It almost feels like cheating, making this beer... if it works out well I can see myself doing it again many times in the future.


----------



## Thefatdoghead

Sounds like a plan. Get it off the yeast and condition in the keg. I can always CPBF some bottles if I need to. 

Thanks mate.


----------



## ricardo

I'm planning my first Berliner and was after a bit of advice, I have a RIMS systems and after a lot of reading i think i'm going to mash at 65 until conversion and then throw 10% Acid malt to lower pH to about 4.5, turn off the burners and let cool to 43 whilst recirculating. I'm then going to transfer the 10 gallons to the kettle for souring, my questions are

1) If i don't make a starter for the lacto how many vials of the white labs would i need to pitch to get it into the pH 3.5 range? I'm planning on holding at 43 with a temp controller for 2 days.
2) Alternatively i was planning on throwing a big handful of crushed grain in there instead of using the vials, would this release any tannin when i hold for 10 minutes at around 27 for pasteurization?
3) Use a mixture of grain and the vials?

Cheers in advance


----------



## Black n Tan

Have a look at the attached presentation by Jesse Caudal, head microbiologist at Wyeast. it he recommends pitching the lacto a few days before the yeast at 10 million cells/mL. Wyeast packs contain somewhere in the order of 20-30 billion lacto cells, so at the recommended pitch rate is only enough for 2-3L. Even at a itch rate of 5 million cells per mL this is only enough for 4-6L batch. So if you follow their advice, it would make sense to make a starter.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2012/1616-09%20A%20Perspective%20on%20Brewing%20Weisse-style%20Beer%20-%20Jess%20Caudill%20&%20Jason%20Kahler.pdf


----------



## ricardo

Black n Tan said:


> Have a look at the attached presentation by Jesse Caudal, head microbiologist at Wyeast. it he recommends pitching the lacto a few days before the yeast at 10 million cells/mL. Wyeast packs contain somewhere in the order of 20-30 billion lacto cells, so at the recommended pitch rate is only enough for 2-3L. Even at a itch rate of 5 million cells per mL this is only enough for 4-6L batch. So if you follow their advice, it would make sense to make a starter.
> 
> http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2012/1616-09%20A%20Perspective%20on%20Brewing%20Weisse-style%20Beer%20-%20Jess%20Caudill%20&%20Jason%20Kahler.pdf


Many thanks for that, very useful

Has anybody tried souring by chucking in a hand of crushed grain?i found this article where the author took notes at a lecture on Berliner given by a German brewer and this was his preferred method, sadly it doesn't mention the amount of grain required

http://sourbrewster.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/berliner-weisse-the-old-time-kettle-souring-technique/


----------



## spryzie

See my post above. Unadulterated grains work but make a "starter" rather than ruin a whole batch if it doesn't work.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Went with the wild method - I mashed in 1/4 of the grist, once it got down to room temp, chucked in some raw grains and let sour for 2.5 days.

One the day of total mash in, I mashed in the remaining 3/4 and after an hour, dropped to room temp, put in the now soured 1/4 and let it sour overnight. Nice but not overdone pellicle formed.

Pasteurised it next day (I'm a sook) and chucked in hops. Rehydrated S33 yeast and it was off and trying to climb out of the fermenter in a few hours.


----------



## ricardo

I think i will go the lacto starter route instead of wild.

I found an interesting snippet from Kristen England https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10195.0 where he states that he makes a starter to 1.025 with 50% glucose and 50% malt extract (2oz\quart).

Would this be a measurement of 1 oz glucose and 1 oz malt in 2 liters of water to get this gravity, does that work out, Ive never used glucose in a starter


----------



## Black n Tan

ricardo said:


> I think i will go the lacto starter route instead of wild.
> 
> I found an interesting snippet from Kristen England https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10195.0 where he states that he makes a starter to 1.025 with 50% glucose and 50% malt extract (2oz\quart).
> 
> Would this be a measurement of 1 oz glucose and 1 oz malt in 2 liters of water to get this gravity, does that work out, Ive never used glucose in a starter


That is what I did although I used cane sugar instead of glucose. The thing is that Wyeast lacto can't metabolise most of the sugars in malt, hence the use of glucose. Some people use apple juice. Jess Caudal responded to an email I sent him and recommends not to stir the starter and monitor the growth of the starter by measuring pH drop.


----------



## ricardo

Black n Tan said:


> That is what I did although I used cane sugar instead of glucose. The thing is that Wyeast lacto can't metabolise most of the sugars in malt, hence the use of glucose. Some people use apple juice. Jess Caudal responded to an email I sent him and recommends not to stir the starter and monitor the growth of the starter by measuring pH drop.


Yeah it's weird as Kristen says that it's important to put it on a stir plate, all very confusing as everybody has there own way of doing things with mixed results everywhere

I'm going to go for a 10 gallon batch, any idea on size of starter and how many lacto smack packs for the 3 - 1 ratio


----------



## Black n Tan

ricardo said:


> Yeah it's weird as Kristen says that it's important to put it on a stir plate, all very confusing as everybody has there own way of doing things with mixed results everywhere
> 
> I'm going to go for a 10 gallon batch, any idea on size of starter and how many lacto smack packs for the 3 - 1 ratio


I followed Kristen's advice when I made my BW. I made a 1L starter, 5 days @30C on the stir plate. I pitched the lacto first into a 23L batch and monitored pH daily. It only dropped to pH3.9 after 7 days, not nearly sour enough so I had to add some lactic acid to get it in the right range. That's when I contacted Jess and asked for advice. So next time I will make a larger starter (or step starter) and not stir, to see if that sour more quickly. Lacto doesn't floc like yeast so you may need to give it a few days in the fridge if you wish to just pitch the lacto.


----------



## ricardo

Black n Tan said:


> I followed Kristen's advice when I made my BW. I made a 1L starter, 5 days @30C on the stir plate. I pitched the lacto first into a 23L batch and monitored pH daily. It only dropped to pH3.9 after 7 days, not nearly sour enough so I had to add some lactic acid to get it in the right range. That's when I contacted Jess and asked for advice. So next time I will make a larger starter (or step starter) and not stir, to see if that sour more quickly. Lacto doesn't floc like yeast so you may need to give it a few days in the fridge if you wish to just pitch the lacto.


Thanks for the info, interesting stuff, i think i'm going to pitch 4 packs of lacto straight into the 40 liters of wort, cover with cling film and leave for 3 - 4 days at 37 Celsius. So kind of like a massive starter. I'll then do a no boil, transfer to primary and pitch yeast.

Can i ask if you pitched any lacto or yeast at bottling, if so how much?


----------



## Black n Tan

I didn't add any extra lacto or yeast at bottling and it carbed up fine. I did however add Brett to half the bottles: I used a syringe to add 1mL to each pack direct from wyeast pack. I threw away the syringe afterward as I don't want Brett in my brewery. That said the bottle of oatmeal stout I put into Westgate Stout Extravaganza was contaminated with Brett: I think I must have reused a BW bottle containing Brett without sanitising correctly. I hope it is a one off! I much prefer BW with Brett. Go half and half so you know what Brett brings to the table.


----------



## ricardo

Black n Tan said:


> I didn't add any extra lacto or yeast at bottling and it carbed up fine. I did however add Brett to half the bottles: I used a syringe to add 1mL to each pack direct from wyeast pack. I threw away the syringe afterward as I don't want Brett in my brewery. That said the bottle of oatmeal stout I put into Westgate Stout Extravaganza was contaminated with Brett: I think I must have reused a BW bottle containing Brett without sanitising correctly. I hope it is a one off! I much prefer BW with Brett. Go half and half so you know what Brett brings to the table.


maybe next time, you haven't exactly sold me on the idea  I am splitting in half but will be doing a Florida Weisse with the other half


----------



## Dementedchook

Well, I've been reading over this thread, and the one linked early on, obsessively. So now I have a plan, that doesn't involve making a full size batch first off(here's looking at you horrendous "russian imperial stout") .

Got a ~500ml starter going with DME and a small handful of grain. Let that go for a day, then use a tin of coopers wheat extract to make wort up to about 12L or so, bittered lightly.
Pitch ale yeast and (hopefully sour) starter together and ferment about the 18 degree mark.

Sound good?


----------



## vykuza

Sounds workable. I would ferment at 18 for a week, then ramp the temp up for the lacto (which loves it warmer) to about 22-24 for as long as you can stand to wait.

And taste your starter before pitching. Anything could be eating that DME!


----------



## fattox

A method I've seen for this involves souring the wort with lacto only for about 7-8 hours, then boiling it out and fermenting for a couple weeks. They did it on an episode of Brew Dogs in Season 1. I think they had a pretty sizeable amount of lacto on board though with the souring fermentation. I'll see if I can dig up more info


----------



## fattox

Nick R said:


> Sounds workable. I would ferment at 18 for a week, then ramp the temp up for the lacto (which loves it warmer) to about 22-24 for as long as you can stand to wait.
> 
> And taste your starter before pitching. Anything could be eating that DME!


Nick! Expect an order for a few packs of the Vermont IPA Yeast coming through very shortly! I don't know how you get this but I'll be sure to order it as I need it from you


----------



## vykuza

fattox said:


> A method I've seen for this involves souring the wort with lacto only for about 7-8 hours, then boiling it out and fermenting for a couple weeks. They did it on an episode of Brew Dogs in Season 1. I think they had a pretty sizeable amount of lacto on board though with the souring fermentation. I'll see if I can dig up more info



I've posted in this threat on this before - I do a turbo sour by pitching a wyeast or white labs lacto culture in the mash and keeping it around 40c for 24-48 hours with a good esky mash tun or some other method. Works really well, and you can tailor the sourness to your liking by tasting the mash. Quick boil to kill the lacto then just ferment with something neutral to finish the beer. 

I like this method as it still lets other wild bugs have a quick go at your mash for a bit of depth, you don't need to wait long to drink it, and you can pinpoint your sourness levels to a T.


----------



## fattox

That's how I would do it personally, just for that ability to have it quicker over the summer months when it's great after a day's labour


----------



## AJ80

Nick R said:


> I've posted in this threat on this before - I do a turbo sour by pitching a wyeast or white labs lacto culture in the mash and keeping it around 40c for 24-48 hours with a good esky mash tun or some other method. Works really well, and you can tailor the sourness to your liking by tasting the mash. Quick boil to kill the lacto then just ferment with something neutral to finish the beer.
> 
> I like this method as it still lets other wild bugs have a quick go at your mash for a bit of depth, you don't need to wait long to drink it, and you can pinpoint your sourness levels to a T.


Have my first crack at this style souring right now - used about .5kg of uncracked malt to add the lacto to the wort (have lautered) and using a temp controller on my OTS element to keep it at 40C. Smells interesting to say the least, an interesting mix of sweet yoghurt and sick, but still nice. Will give it a quick boil tomorrow night as that'll be 48 hours worth of souring. Looking forward to this one!


----------



## waggastew

Just mashing this baby right now. Based on recipe from here: http://www.thepourreport.com/berliner-weisse-recipe-and-brewday/

SBW-1
Berliner Weisse

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 12.0
Total Grain (kg): 2.100
Total Hops (g): 11.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.037 (°P): 9.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.009 (°P): 2.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.64 %
Colour (SRM): 2.9 (EBC): 5.7
Bitterness (IBU): 5.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
1.200 kg Pilsner (57.14%)
0.700 kg Wheat Malt (33.33%)
0.50 kg Acidulated Malt (9.52%)

Hop Bill
----------------
11.0 g Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.9 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
100g Pilsener malt, uncrushed
150g Acid matl, crushed

Mash at 65degC for 60min with pre-boiled water. Cool mash to 55degC, add 100g of pilsener malt to innoculate and remaining 150g acid malt. Cover mash bed with aluminium foil, purge CO2 and seal pot with gladwrap. Rest wrapped in ferment fridge for 48hrs at 52degC. Sparge etc and boil as normal.

Ferment with WY1007 German Ale at 19degC

Plan on making up some hibiscus syrup to try 'mit schuss'


----------



## AJ80

What an amazing transformation - 48 hours in and my shed smells like freshly baked sour dough bread. Can't wait to get tucked into this one!


----------



## vykuza

Nice one! Keep an eye on it, and keep tasting, as you want to stop it when it tastes as good as you think it's going to get.


----------



## AJ80

Cheers mate, ended up boiling last night. Smelt great, just what I was hoping for. Will report back once bottled.


----------



## OneEye

I've chucked a handful of I crushed wheat at mine before. The trick I used was to purge the kettle of oxygen with CO2. (Blew it down the sight glass) 
In the presence of oxygen the lacto will cause butyric acid to form (the bile/vomit compound). Let it sour for 3 days, tasting it as it went, when it hit the right level of sourness you boil it, like Nick has said, for a half hour or so. Kill the bugs and finish it off with a yeast of your choosing. No need for a separate 'wild' fermenter. 
I've also used yoghurt! You know the lactobacillus stuff? Worked a treat!


----------



## mje1980

Nick R said:


> I've posted in this threat on this before - I do a turbo sour by pitching a wyeast or white labs lacto culture in the mash and keeping it around 40c for 24-48 hours with a good esky mash tun or some other method. Works really well, and you can tailor the sourness to your liking by tasting the mash. Quick boil to kill the lacto then just ferment with something neutral to finish the beer.
> 
> I like this method as it still lets other wild bugs have a quick go at your mash for a bit of depth, you don't need to wait long to drink it, and you can pinpoint your sourness levels to a T.


Hi nick, did you mash as normal, then let the mash drop down to 40c then pitch ?. This sounds awesome. Quick boil, say 30 mins?.


----------



## doon

I did one in my bm. Mashed as normal then then let it drop in temp and held it at around 40 for three days with a hop bag full of uncracked grain thrown in.

Boiled for 15 or so mins and cubed. Yet to ferment but had a nice sourness to it


----------



## mje1980

Cheers mate. Keen to try one out.


----------



## vykuza

mje1980 said:


> Hi nick, did you mash as normal, then let the mash drop down to 40c then pitch ?. This sounds awesome. Quick boil, say 30 mins?.


That's right. Mashed thick, added cold water to hit 40c+ then pitched the lacto. Wait 24-48 hours, mash out with some hot water (it should really flow just fine, you'll find the mash very thin now), sparge and 15 minute boil just to make sure the lacto (and whatever else is still swimming in there) is dead and get a couple of IBUs in the wort. 

Keeping IBUs ultra low isn't a problem with this method either, as you don't need to protect the lacto from it. So.. hoppyweisse? WHO KNOWS?!

I sense another experiment coming....


----------



## timmyf

Just mashing a Berliner Weisse in at the moment. Recipe is:
50% Pils
50% Wheat
50gm homegrown Hersbrucker flowers (~6ibu)
5ml lactic acid

Mash at 50 for 30, 66 for 60 and 78 for 15.

I'm using WLP630 so I want to do a boil so I've got a sterile wort for the yeast to play in.

My question is for those who've done short boils with this style, did you get DMS?
I'm a bit worried that with only a 15-20 min boil i'm going to end up with a heap of DMS given a 50% pils grist. I might just play it safe this time and do the usual 90 min boil but I'm interested in what others have seen.

Cheers,
TIm


----------



## AJ80

Mine will be bottled tomorrow, but haven't detected any DMS so far (has been hard not to keep plundering the fermenter!!) and only did a 30 min boil. Grist was 50/50 JW pils and JW wheat.


----------



## vykuza

I've been doing a double batch of berliner weisse over the past few days, and decided to take a few pictures along the way.

The malt bill is 50/50 Weyermann Pils and Wheat malts, 3.5kg of each for a 46L batch.

Here's what I was working with; my trusty Techni-ice mash tun!





with trusty BeerBelly False Bottom




Mashed in very thin this time to see if there was a difference. This was about 40L, with grain added and stirred, leaving 10L for a batch sparge at the very end.




At this time, I mashed for 60 minutes, opened the lid of the fermenter and walked away for a few hours.

Once the mash hit 45ish degrees (I think it was 47), I poured in a vial of Lactobacillus Delbrueckii, gave it a quick stir, closed the lid and waited for some magic to happen.

24 hours later, it smelled like a bucket of sick on a hot day, and looked like this:




Note on the top-right there's some growth going on. Mmmm. At this stage it smells so bad, you would be mad wanting to drink it. Tastes ok though, just like sweet wort.

48 hours later (72 hours in the mash tun), I'm ready to boil. It now smells very very sweet, no sign of the vom smell, sourish and vaguely tropical. Reminds me of the smell of a mango weiss bar. (how fitting!)

The biggest difference is the appearance. Look at that lacto growth.




A bit more of a close up



I then drained the mash tun to a bucket and transferred to the urn for a boil. It left nice ropey strands of lacto and whatever else was growing in there around the edges of the fermenter. Wort is beige coloured.

I sparged with 10L of water to get the last of the goods out and boiled for 15 minutes with a handful of old Spalt I had lying around - probably 10g.

Into the fermenter for a slow chill and tomorrow I'll pitch some BRY-97. The wort tastes sour, wheaty and sweet, quite complex!

Here's the drained mash tun



It gets rinsed out, then blasted with a strong hot water sodium percarbonate soak for 24 hours filled to the brim, followed by a starsan spray before going back in to storage.

Here's the wort draining to the fermenter - yes it's cloudy, but I find it clears well once fermented.




I hope this helps anyone who wants to try this method. It is quite simple, it just involves time up front, rather than waiting months for it to sour in the fermenter, and somewhere out of the way you can ride out the vom smell for the first 24-48 hours.

Happy brewing!


----------



## fattox

The interesting method I found out about for a Berliner was from Beersuit? - Anthony from Toowoomba Homebrewers. It's taken from Jess Caudill of Wyeast. Basically what he does is a normal recipe, then he sours it with lacto for a full week in the fermenter at higher temps, then after that he pitched 1007 - German Ale yeast. Let that ride out to where you want it, then he added Brett at bottling. Personally, I'd just do a long brett age in the fermenter and keg it, should show a similar result and I'm sure that's what Ant was telling me the last time we talked about them. He does a mean BW too. But yeah. End of the day, it ages on brett for a few months, then goes into keg.


----------



## mje1980

About to do my first. Planning to do nicks method. I biab so going to leave bag in. Being a small beer, and I have a 50 litre kettle I think I'll do my first double batch biab at the same time. Pretty excited


----------



## Blind Dog

Nick R said:


> I've posted in this threat on this before - I do a turbo sour by pitching a wyeast or white labs lacto culture in the mash and keeping it around 40c for 24-48 hours with a good esky mash tun or some other method. Works really well, and you can tailor the sourness to your liking by tasting the mash. Quick boil to kill the lacto then just ferment with something neutral to finish the beer.
> 
> I like this method as it still lets other wild bugs have a quick go at your mash for a bit of depth, you don't need to wait long to drink it, and you can pinpoint your sourness levels to a T.


[SIZE=10.5pt]Nick (or anyone else)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Is there any reason why I can’t just mash and boil as normal and then ferment with a lacto culture and neutral ale yeast? Jamil Z is a fan apparently[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Just reluctant to grab more gear like a decent esky, or have lacto in the BM (which I know is paranoid, but paranoia is healthy and fun)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Apologies if its been discussed before[/SIZE]


----------



## seamad

I've got a query too..
My system is a RIMS, so it would mean running the pump to keep the mash at temp. Is there any reason why I couldn't mash as normal, transfer to kettle then cool to 40ish and add WY5335 for a couple of days then just boil for @20 min before final fermenting ?
cheers


----------



## tiprya

Blind Dog said:


> [SIZE=10.5pt]Nick (or anyone else)[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]Is there any reason why I can’t just mash and boil as normal and then ferment with a lacto culture and neutral ale yeast? Jamil Z is a fan apparently[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]Just reluctant to grab more gear like a decent esky, or have lacto in the BM (which I know is paranoid, but paranoia is healthy and fun)[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=medium]Apologies if its been discussed before[/SIZE]


This is the 'real' way to make a berliner weisse - sour mashing is a shortcut. I have put lacto in my BM and it turned out fine (well the beer turned putrid but the BM is unaffected).



seamad said:


> I've got a query too..
> My system is a RIMS, so it would mean running the pump to keep the mash at temp. Is there any reason why I couldn't mash as normal, transfer to kettle then cool to 40ish and add WY5335 for a couple of days then just boil for @20 min before final fermenting ?
> cheers


That will work as well. You can briefly boil the runnings if you want to ensure it is only innoculated with lacto. Not sure what is preferable though.


----------



## AJ80

I went slightly different method again on mine - kettle souring. I pulled the bag of grain at the end of the mash, let the temp drop to high 40s and added a hop bag with around 500g of uncracked pilsner malt to inoculate with lacto. I then hooked up my OTS element to a temp controller, dialled in 40C covered it all up and left it for 48 hours. After that, I removed the grain and did a 30 min boil to pasteurise. Fermented with notto at 16C. Has been in the bottle for only 1.5 weeks, but tasted great at the end of fermentation. 

Didn't bottle the whole batch though - about 9L was racked onto blueberries for something different...


----------



## vykuza

There are many ways to skin a cat. 

I like my sour mash and boil method, as I feel it adds depth to the final product. I find lacto pitch, then plain sacc pitch to be quite two dimensional. Lacto and sacc pitch in combo ends up being very slow. 

"Traditionally" it would have a number of different organisms having a go at the wort, including brett and others. And also very slowly. I also don't cap with a yeast floaty, or bury it in sand to age it.

I have yet to pitch brett in a BW, as I tend to keg and drink it young as a summer quaffer (not having to wait for the lacto to work, let alone a tertiary brett pitch).


----------



## Blind Dog

do I need to add the skinned cat to the sour mash?


----------



## Blind Dog

On a more serious note, how clean is the esky afterwards? Or to put it another way, can it still eb used as an esky or do I need to sacrifice it to the lacto?


----------



## vykuza

It's just fine. Would use for anything after sod perc and acid sanitiser treatment.


----------



## Beersuit

I have been doing the method fattox detailed for some time now. Ross got me into it. I have not been pitching sacc the last few I have done. Something has been getting to the wort before I get a chance to. I have been pitching Brett trios anyway to make sure it's done. 

I think I might try your method Nick and see where it takes me.


----------



## fattox

Anthony - let me know if/when you bring something from this along, we can compare notes on the two methods at a club meeting, my berliner is probably gonna be due about mid January/early feb at this stage. It's just a matter of deciding which Brett blend to throw as an experiment


----------



## seamad

So...
I mashed last Saturday, fly sparged with 78C water into my HLT ( crown urn) to get 39L @ 1.041 ( will dilute down to 1.030 before fermenting). Sat night wort had cooled to 49C so I added a big SS ball with a good handful of pils, urn was covered with foil and urn lid.Urn was set to 39C, but forgot to turn element on, so Sunday was at 30C before I turned it back on, pH at this stage was 5.20. Monday was very strong vomit smell, but that seems par for the course. Yesterday ( Thursday) I checked again, very small amount of foam had escaped one side of lid, vomit smell still there ( but much subdued or I'm getting used to it ). Gravity has dropped @ 3 points on refrac ( calculator says about the same with hydo) and pH down to 3.65. Haven't removed foil yet to see what it looks like, but sample was pretty cloudy. From what I've read it seems the vomit smell should be gone, is this correct ? Should I keep going, or 20 min boil and ferment or just chuck and start again ??
cheers


----------



## vykuza

It won't be 100% gone, but it will definitely smell sweeter and slightly beery. Sniff it in the morning and decide!


----------



## seamad

Peeled the foil off this morning, there was a thin greyish/off white film over about a third of the urn which peeled off in one piece. The wort was clear, pH still the same at 3.65 as a couple of days ago, no change in gravity. Strangely I can only smell the vomit smell at a distance, when I stuck my nose right close to the wort all I could get was a sharp/acid smell, not unpleasant at all, tastes fine too so decided to boil for 20 minutes and filled 2 cubes. Will ferment 1 out and see what it turns out like.Think I'll get some lacto culture for the next one...


----------



## seamad

Well I've tried to ferment this with no luck so far. Pitched 2 packets of rehydrated yeast, first was M44 then 4 days later US05, no gravity drop at all. Only thing I can think of is that the pH is stalling/preventing fermentation ? Think it might be time to give up on this one.


----------



## Black n Tan

I would not have thought that a pH of 3.65 was to acidic for the yeast. However I do know that wyeast 1007 german ale is what a lot of people use for BW as it is acid tolerant. I used that in pH 3.8 wort and it went fine.


----------



## mje1980

I've got my first successful attempt in the fermentor now. I just pitched the wyeast lacto, waited around 36 hours then pitched the German ale. Such a low gravity beer it ripped through it in a few days. 




Do any of you guys add brett to your BWs?. I plan on bottling some soon, but also splitting 8 or so litres off and adding brett c


----------



## Black n Tan

mje1980 said:


> I've got my first successful attempt in the fermentor now. I just pitched the wyeast lacto, waited around 36 hours then pitched the German ale. Such a low gravity beer it ripped through it in a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do any of you guys add brett to your BWs?. I plan on bottling some soon, but also splitting 8 or so litres off and adding brett c


I added the brett directly to the bottle, 1mL of Wyeast Brett per bottle. Next time I will probably use 2mL because the Brett is there but quite subtle. Better than using it in your fermenter and risk contaminating future brews.


----------



## Tex083

Does anyone have DMS issues with there BW? I think mine has a massive hit of DMS, it has subsided after fermention but still there.
It was a Sour Mash with a 30 min boil.


----------



## mje1980

Black n Tan said:


> I added the brett directly to the bottle, 1mL of Wyeast Brett per bottle. Next time I will probably use 2mL because the Brett is there but quite subtle. Better than using it in your fermenter and risk contaminating future brews.


I've got 6 fermentors, 5 of them have been used for the funk haha. I just grabbed some orval so might split between brett c and the brett from orval ( b I think ).


----------



## mje1980

Tex083 said:



> Does anyone have DMS issues with there BW? I think mine has a massive hit of DMS, it has subsided after fermention but still there.
> It was a Sour Mash with a 30 min boil.


Is it DMS or butyric acid ? It smells a little like Parmesan cheese and vomit. Don't ask how I know


----------



## seamad

Black n Tan said:


> I would not have thought that a pH of 3.65 was to acidic for the yeast. However I do know that wyeast 1007 german ale is what a lot of people use for BW as it is acid tolerant. I used that in pH 3.8 wort and it went fine.


I didn't temp correct that, would be @ 3.5. I don't have any 1007, plenty of pommie yeasts. Maybe the pH is just too low for the yanky yeasts to start. It's been in the fermenter for 8 days with nothing to show, even the bad bugs are too scared to get going.


----------



## motch02

My Berliner is down to 1.002 and tastes like smokey bacon from the Brett... Thinking I'll need to drown it out with 2kg of Sour Cherries

Good idea?


----------



## mje1980

Yes absolutely add cherries to it. I've recently done this and it works very well IMHO.


----------



## JDW81

I'm about to start out on a sour/funky beer odyssey and will brew a couple of Berliner's to kick off my journey.

I've done lots of reading, however am interested in what experiences people have with the different methods of souring.

I'm not going to bother with sour mashing. I know you can get some amazingly complex results from it, however it's just a bit hit and miss for my liking.

The two methods I'm looking at are fast kettle souring (adding a commercial lacto culture to the cooled, boiled wort in the kettle, souring for 24-48 hours then boiling to kill of the bacteria) and souring prior to primary fermentation with the wyeast lacto, then pitching German Ale yeast. I'd be interested in people's experience who've done this two methods side-by-side and if one gives more depth of flavour than the other.

My other concern is DMS. All my pils containing beers get a 90 minute boil and I've never had a trouble with DMS. Have people who've done a few BWs with only a short boil found DMS to be a issue in the final product?

Will brew a double batch, and ferment one straight, with the other racked onto either blueberries or raspberries and give them time to age in my nice cold garage before summer.

Cheers 

JD


----------



## stuartf

Trying to get my head around the whole bw thing but think im keen to try making one some time. I remember having some beers in Berlin that they served with little tubes of juniper or berry flavoured stuff. Barstaff told me it was a beer unique to berlin, cant remember the brewery but is this the same beer? If so I remember it being really good


----------



## indica86

I'v not done a Berliner Weisse nor tasted one...

BUT I have recently made a kettle soured pale ale. The thread is here .
I really enjoyed the result and the beer was super tart and refreshing.


----------



## JDW81

stuartf said:


> Trying to get my head around the whole bw thing but think im keen to try making one some time. I remember having some beers in Berlin that they served with little tubes of juniper or berry flavoured stuff. Barstaff told me it was a beer unique to berlin, cant remember the brewery but is this the same beer? If so I remember it being really good


Possibly, Berliner is a sour, light ale that is often served with a raspberry or woodruff syrup. Usually made with 70:30 pilsner, wheat malt.

Napoleon dubbed BW the champagne of the north, such was his fondness of the style.


----------



## Weizguy

I have allowed my Berliner wort to sour overnight in the mash tun, on another occasion have also added a sour mash to the wort, and also have made a version with lacto culture from unmashed malt grain/ DME.

Have made every batch to include a 15 minute boil,

IIRC, the batch that was soured overnight in the mash tun had a nasty sour yoghurt/baby puke aroma that made the beer distasteful and almost undrinkable, even after the mash was completed and boiled. Several people on this forum can attest to the beer I put in a NSW case swap back in 2005, perhaps. PostModern was quite vocal and justifiably so.

I also made another in 2006 and won the BoS at the NSW state comp, as well as shared it with the NSW 2006 July case participants. That one had a home-made lacto culture and 2 days with the lacto culture before I added the German ale yeast.
When I make another, I'l pitch a large culture of lacto and sample for appropriate sourness before I add the ale yeast. Best hints I have, apart from adding extra lactic acid, a little at a time, to the finished beer if not sour enough after fermentation.

I like this beer style to be quite sour, to be appropriately refreshing.


----------



## JDW81

Les the Weizguy said:


> I have allowed my Berliner wort to sour overnight in the mash tun, on another occasion have also added a sour mash to the wort, and also have made a version with lacto culture from unmashed malt grain/ DME.
> 
> Have made every batch to include a 15 minute boil,
> 
> IIRC, the batch that was soured overnight in the mash tun had a nasty sour yoghurt/baby puke aroma that made the beer distasteful and almost undrinkable, even after the mash was completed and boiled. Several people on this forum can attest to the beer I put in a NSW case swap back in 2005, perhaps. PostModern was quite vocal and justifiably so.
> 
> I also made another in 2006 and won the BoS at the NSW state comp, as well as shared it with the NSW 2006 July case participants. That one had a home-made lacto culture and 2 days with the lacto culture before I added the German ale yeast.
> When I make another, I'l pitch a large culture of lacto and sample for appropriate sourness before I add the ale yeast. Best hints I have, apart from adding extra lactic acid, a little at a time, to the finished beer if not sour enough after fermentation.
> 
> I like this beer style to be quite sour, to be appropriately refreshing.


Thanks Les,

I'm leaning towards adding a healthy pitch of a commercial lacto culture (brevis or delbreckii) then adding the ale yeast to finish it off. I'd like to packaged beer to keep ageing and developing it's sourness instead of souring prior to boiling.

I prefer my Berliner's on the sour end of the spectrum as well.

Have you ever had an issue with DMS with the short boil?

Cheers mate,

JD


----------



## waggastew

White labs did some trials in the US on when to add Lacto. They got more sourness when they added the ale yeast first, fermented out, then added Lacto. Sounds anti intuitive (less food for Lacto to eat) but the results were repeatable.

I have done a couple of kettle sours using grain as the Lacto source. Doing this you need to manipulate pH, temp and O2 to get good results. Pure culture is certainly less risky although the commercial cultures aren't cheap


----------



## Weizguy

JDW81 said:


> Thanks Les,
> 
> I'm leaning towards adding a healthy pitch of a commercial lacto culture (brevis or delbreckii) then adding the ale yeast to finish it off. I'd like to packaged beer to keep ageing and developing it's sourness instead of souring prior to boiling.
> 
> I prefer my Berliner's on the sour end of the spectrum as well.
> 
> Have you ever had an issue with DMS with the short boil?
> 
> Cheers mate,
> 
> JD


No problem with DMS. Sorry, I forgot to include that above.

Stew, do you have a reference for that WhiteLabs study. Hard to argue with the Scientific Method and repeatable results.


----------



## waggastew

Les the Weizguy said:


> No problem with DMS. Sorry, I forgot to include that above.
> 
> Stew, do you have a reference for that WhiteLabs study. Hard to argue with the Scientific Method and repeatable results.


Brewing Network Podcast 'Brewing with Style' 6th October 2015 - Berlinner Weisse show, 43min20sec in

Info is relayed by Jamil from a conversation he had with folks at Wyeast (not White Labs). Apparently they got best results with Euro Ale strain for sacc fermentation


----------



## huez

JDW81 said:


> Thanks Les,
> 
> I'm leaning towards adding a healthy pitch of a commercial lacto culture (brevis or delbreckii) then adding the ale yeast to finish it off. I'd like to packaged beer to keep ageing and developing it's sourness instead of souring prior to boiling.
> 
> I prefer my Berliner's on the sour end of the spectrum as well.
> 
> Have you ever had an issue with DMS with the short boil?
> 
> Cheers mate,
> 
> JD


Hey JD. I've only done two berliners so i'm no expert, but both didn't have any dms issues, and that was with a no boil. Mash, Sparge, hold at 95c for like 10mins and chill. Go with the primary lacto ferment and finish it off with a wlp001 or a german ale strain. My first one didn't quite sour enough so i split the batch and added passionfruit to one and raspberries/blackberries to the other. Honestly some of the best beers i've made.


----------



## Black n Tan

waggastew said:


> Brewing Network Podcast 'Brewing with Style' 6th October 2015 - Berlinner Weisse show, 43min20sec in
> 
> Info is relayed by Jamil from a conversation he had with folks at Wyeast (not White Labs). Apparently they got best results with Euro Ale strain for sacc fermentation


If you go to the link I provided in post 146 you will see the Wyeast results. They concluded pitching the lacto before the yeast gave the best souring.


----------



## Dan2

Thanks B&T - I read that about a year ago but had no luck finding it recently.

JDW - Don't be afraid of using grain to innoculate.
I've tried a Wyeast pure pitch and also grain (BB Ale).
I can't say for certain that one is faster than the other as the first time (with pure pitch) I pitched at mash pH, and every time since I've dosed with lactic acid to get pH down to 4.5-4.8 as suggested somewhere to inhibit the nasties, then added grain.
But the first time took 3 days to reach pH 3.15, every other batch has hit 3.1-3.4 within 12-18 hrs
I'm using 100g uncrushed grain, but I'm sure you could get away with less - not a big cost though.

My key points for safety are;
- lactic acid to inhibit unwanted bacteria. (Also prevents degradation of head forming proteins so you get a nice big fluffy head).
- a couple layers of gladwrap on the wort surface to keep out O2 (after adding grain in a removable tea bag).
- boil (or just pasteurise) to prevent cross contamination and knock off anything else that was on the grain.

Can't say I've noticed DMS, but I have noticed a better depth of flavour since using the grain method.

I'm finishing off with CB's German ale dry yeast.


----------



## TheWiggman

I've got Wyeast PC-3191 Berliner-Weisse Blend on order and will be dipping my toes in my first sour. Heaps of suggestions and alternatives mentioned but I'm guessing I'll do the following -

Pils/wheat (malted) at 50:50
Mash hops? I'll find something appropriately Euro in the freezer
No boil, sparge straight into the fermenter
Allow to coil then add blend. Wait 3-6 months, bulk prime using flavourless yeast to high carb.
No rapid souring for me thanks, I just want to park it in a corner and do it the old fashioned way. Questions -

Why no boil? Some don't, some do. Is it just the traditional method or is there a technical reason for it?
Do the type of hops matter and when are they added?
What's the usual carb method for bottling?
Looking forward to this, hopefully it won't become an obsession. Ahem.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Les the Weizguy said:


> I have allowed my Berliner wort to sour overnight in the mash tun, on another occasion have also added a sour mash to the wort, and also have made a version with lacto culture from unmashed malt grain/ DME.
> 
> Have made every batch to include a 15 minute boil,
> 
> IIRC, the batch that was soured overnight in the mash tun had a nasty sour yoghurt/baby puke aroma that made the beer distasteful and almost undrinkable, even after the mash was completed and boiled. Several people on this forum can attest to the beer I put in a NSW case swap back in 2005, perhaps. PostModern was quite vocal and justifiably so.


I did this a couple of years ago, because all the reading said "do this". Same problem with off-yoghurt/puke smell. It got panned in TasHBC.

It was a drinkable beer - especially from a sour point of view, but the problem was the fact that this aroma kept coming up. It put me off.

Bacchus does a Raspberry Chocolate version and whilst the chocolate isn't my thing, it is a very very well made beer and has given me an idea of how a good base Berliner Weisse could make many beer varieties.


----------



## Mardoo

According to BrewStrong, completely excluding oxygen from the mashtun will avoid this. Cover the mash, blanket of CO2, seal it closed, or else do the sour mash in a keg. I haven't yet tried it myself, but plan to. However they also made the point that adding a lacto culture during ferment is the most dependable way to go.


----------



## GalBrew

If you want a library of info on sour brewing. Check out the Milk the Funk wiki. It is far more comprehensive than anywhere else.


----------



## AJ80

TheWiggman said:


> I've got Wyeast PC-3191 Berliner-Weisse Blend on order and will be dipping my toes in my first sour. Heaps of suggestions and alternatives mentioned but I'm guessing I'll do the following -
> 
> Pils/wheat (malted) at 50:50
> Mash hops? I'll find something appropriately Euro in the freezer
> No boil, sparge straight into the fermenter
> Allow to coil then add blend. Wait 3-6 months, bulk prime using flavourless yeast to high carb.
> No rapid souring for me thanks, I just want to park it in a corner and do it the old fashioned way. Questions -
> Why no boil? Some don't, some do. Is it just the traditional method or is there a technical reason for it?
> Do the type of hops matter and when are they added?
> What's the usual carb method for bottling?
> Looking forward to this, hopefully it won't become an obsession. Ahem.


Nice one mate - it's a slippery slope and no doubt will become an obsession. I just picked up another 3 carbouys (2 normal and one 11L) and will aim to have six different sours bulk aging before the month is out. 

I've not tried the 'no boil' BW, but given you're using specific cultures of lacto and ale yeast I'd err on the side of caution and give the wort a 15-30 min boil to sterilise before pitching your mixed culture. This will let your lacto and ale cultures shine without anything else wild getting in the road. If you were souring with the lacto found on malt or doing a spontaneous ferment then maybe no boil...

Regarding hops, the lacto is quite sensitive to IBUs (depending on the strain obviously - I've achieved acidity as high as 18 IBUs). I'd go no more than 10, but 5 would be better. Anything neutral at the start of the boil with nothing late would be the go. I've no experience mash hopping so can't help you there. Your grist of 50/50 pils and malted wheat is spot on. 

Feel free to hide this away for 6 months, but it'll probably be ready to bottle within 6 weeks (assuming gravity checks come back stable!). it's the more complex sours (ie Flanders red, lambic, etc) that need the longer aging. This is to allow the more complex mix of bugs (lacto and pedio) and brettanomyces to work their wonder. Bottle as you would a normal clean beer - I've had sours carb up just fine after a year in a carbouy without re-seeding with fresh yeast. 

The best resource I can point you towards is American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmire - he's the guy behind the mad fermentationist blog. Easy to read and he breaks things down into easy to follow instructions. 

Good luck and enjoy the ride mate - hope this is helpful.

Edit: the Sour Hour podcasts on the Brewing Network are also excellent


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## JB

AJ80 said:


> Nice one mate - it's a slippery slope and no doubt will become an obsession. I just picked up another 3 carbouys (2 normal and one 11L) and will aim to have six different sours bulk aging before the month is out.
> 
> I've not tried the 'no boil' BW, but given you're using specific cultures of lacto and ale yeast I'd err on the side of caution and give the wort a 15-30 min boil to sterilise before pitching your mixed culture. This will let your lacto and ale cultures shine without anything else wild getting in the road. If you were souring with the lacto found on malt or doing a spontaneous ferment then maybe no boil...
> 
> Regarding hops, the lacto is quite sensitive to IBUs (depending on the strain obviously - I've achieved acidity as high as 18 IBUs). I'd go no more than 10, but 5 would be better. Anything neutral at the start of the boil with nothing late would be the go. I've no experience mash hopping so can't help you there. Your grist of 50/50 pils and malted wheat is spot on.
> 
> Feel free to hide this away for 6 months, but it'll probably be ready to bottle within 6 weeks (assuming gravity checks come back stable!). it's the more complex sours (ie Flanders red, lambic, etc) that need the longer aging. This is to allow the more complex mix of bugs (lacto and pedio) and brettanomyces to work their wonder. Bottle as you would a normal clean beer - I've had sours carb up just fine after a year in a carbouy without re-seeding with fresh yeast.
> 
> The best resource I can point you towards is American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmire - he's the guy behind the mad fermentationist blog. Easy to read and he breaks things down into easy to follow instructions.
> 
> Good luck and enjoy the ride mate - hope this is helpful.
> 
> Edit: the Sour Hour podcasts on the Brewing Network are also excellent


You had me at 'slippery slope' AJ


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## TheWiggman

I knocked one up on Friday in my fancy new carboy.

50:50 wheatils. Also threw in 100g of acidulated malt, some MgSO4 and CaSO2 in the mash. 64°C single sacc rest. No mash out, but sparged with 78°C water. Also went for a thin mash with 12l to 3.6kg of grain so I didn't over sparge.
12g of Tettenager for 20 mins with a final volume of around 24l at 1.032. Allowed a few hours to cool, then transferred to the carboy.
Gave it a few more hours until the temp was around 30°C. Pitch the smack pack of 3191 directly and then went to bed.

12h later there were minimal signs of action but there were signs nonetheless. Temps was still a bit high at 28°C according to cheap strap-on probe. I was heading out for the weekend so thought (considering the carboy would have had 3l of head space at most) a blow-off tube was in order. I ran the tube into a 500ml bottle, then put the bottle in a wash tub 'just in case'. Left Saturday at about 9 AM.
Return Sunday at 3 PM and boy oh boy - the tub had about 1.5l of blow-off in it that would have otherwise ruined the blanket I wrapped the carboy in. It must have gone NUTS. Unfortunately the temp was still 25°C despite the cool overnight temps in the laundry, but too late to do anything now. The smell of the blow-off liquid though was top-notch - very 'beery' and light, and if any indication of the final product has me feeling confident this will be a winner.
Now should this be a case swap beer or do I keep it all to myself for a long hot summer?


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## TheWiggman

Here's the progress on a single smack pack of the yeast blend. Been at it for 6 weeks now I think. Initial ferment went gangbusters. It took about 3 weeks to actually show any signs of Brett or lacto, but has been slowly bubbling away. Smells damn alluring. Might leave this for Nov-Dec for refreshing summer ales after a hard day's work.


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## TheWiggman

I decided to take a sample yesterday. Interesting stuff. Has a bretty smell about it, very light and mildly acidic. Flavour-wise the acidity is unmistakable and DRY, minimal aftertaste (if any) and reminds me of lemonade. It's still bubbling about once every 3 mins so there's a tiny bit of action going on, but should be safe to bottle when I can be stuffed. 1.002, looks like this one worked


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## Rambo

So I have some Berliner Weisse yeast blend on the way shortly (WLP630) and have a couple of questions before I take the plunge.

Will I need to buy myself a glass demijohn (or the PET ones some home brew stores sell) or could I ferment in a normal fermentor or cube? Will be left for about 3 months so I'm a little worried about oxygen getting in.

During this 3 months or so, is the beer left on the yeast? or moved to a secondary vessel? Could I ferment for a few weeks as normal, then transfer to a keg to finish doing its thing?

Cheers.


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## yurgy

just make sure your airlock is topped up. .i left mine on the cake for six months and was awesome but it had brett to clean it up. keg would be good for secondary. with the warmer weather probably wont take 3 months.


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## Rambo

Maybe fermentor then keg it is then... If I like the results I might invest in the demijohn. Cheers


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## Motabika

You guys kegging your lactos ?


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## Motabika

You guys kegging your lactos ?


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## TheWiggman

Rambo said:


> So I have some Berliner Weisse yeast blend on the way shortly (WLP630) and have a couple of questions before I take the plunge.
> 
> Will I need to buy myself a glass demijohn (or the PET ones some home brew stores sell) or could I ferment in a normal fermentor or cube? Will be left for about 3 months so I'm a little worried about oxygen getting in.
> 
> During this 3 months or so, is the beer left on the yeast? or moved to a secondary vessel? Could I ferment for a few weeks as normal, then transfer to a keg to finish doing its thing?
> 
> Cheers.


This is one of those topics that divides. HDPE is permeable and will allow very low levels of oxygen to pass through. A week or two of fermenting, zero measurable issue. A few months however can begin to have a negative effect that will at best lead to storage issues (won't last a long time in the bottle before becoming oxidised) and at worst spoil the beer. 3 months is pushing it but no doubt there are people who have made decent beers over that time. Personally, that's too long for me.
My understanding of aged sours is they're best left on the yeast cake. If using the 3191 blend it includes sacc, brett and lacto which don't require the beer to be racked. If ageing with bacteria added separately my reading is that it is common to rack to a secondary when adding the culture/s. Also remember that the lacto or brett loves to hang around and can funk up beers without warning if you're not careful. Either use a dedicated fermenter or use glass or stainless.

Motabika, I'm pretty keen to keep the cultures away from my brewery so am bottling. I don't want to commit a keg to sours just yet.


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## Rambo

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm really enjoying sours at the moment so keen to give them a go, just seems like there are so many different methods to get my head around. I think I'll just have to jump in and see how I go.


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## JDW81

TheWiggman said:


> This is one of those topics that divides. HDPE is permeable and will allow very low levels of oxygen to pass through. A week or two of fermenting, zero measurable issue. A few months however can begin to have a negative effect that will at best lead to storage issues (won't last a long time in the bottle before becoming oxidised) and at worst spoil the beer. 3 months is pushing it but no doubt there are people who have made decent beers over that time. Personally, that's too long for me.


This will be your issue if you use your plastic fermenter, however the better bottles (plastic carboy) let in bugger all O2 if you get a good seal on the opening. Having listened to all the sour hour podcasts, it seem that the better bottle is the recommendation for home brewers making sour/wild ales.

JD


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## Motabika

From what I've read you only need to commit the serving line to Sours and the rest just give good clean.

Just kegged a 12 month old golden with cherry guavas


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## TheWiggman

Here it is, the in-glass results of my Berlinner Weisse -






I took it to the swap a few weeks ago for some critical review to see if it lined up with my thoughts. It's dry and light, not really anything overwhelming but has unmistakable barnyard character on the nose and in the aftertaste. Not overtly acidic and mildly sour, but I'd assert pleasantly so. Feedback I got was that it wasn't very sour but very pale, light and perfect after a day out in the sun. Others have done sour mashes to get the sour level up there but my version was entirely driven by the 3191-PC blend. A decent beer for something different.


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## bevan

I've just put a Berliner Weisse into a fermenter with wyeast 3191 PC. Its the start of aging sours for me.

I'm wondering whether to put some fruit puree (raspberry or a stone fruit or something else) once its been going for a while for added flovour or just leave it to the yeast blend?

Have set a freezer up with temp control and have room for another sour/funky beer. Going to do a Saison 3711 in the primary and then 5526 Brett Lambicus in the secondary to age.


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## paulyman

bevan said:


> I'm wondering whether to put some fruit puree (raspberry or a stone fruit or something else) once its been going for a while for added flovour or just leave it to the yeast blend?.


I'd leave it as is. Traditionally fruit syrup was added to the glass. If you want to experiment, maybe try adding a small amount of different syrups or purees to the glass and see which you really like. Take note of the amount you add to the glass so you can scale up. Then try that next batch.


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## bevan

paulyman said:


> I'd leave it as is. Traditionally fruit syrup was added to the glass. If you want to experiment, maybe try adding a small amount of different syrups or purees to the glass and see which you really like. Take note of the amount you add to the glass so you can scale up. Then try that next batch.


Thanks for the reply
Will do that, looking forward to seeing what the yeast blend itself does for flavour. Just a long time between batches! Unless I get another fridge with temp control. SWMBO already thinks I have too many!


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## bevan

This is two days into it, there seems to be a lot of yeast in the blow off container, do I try and get this back in or just leave it?


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## TheWiggman

Agree with that advice. It's much easier to add something than take it away.


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## MickGC

bevan said:


> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1482053679.164497.jpg
> This is two days into it, there seems to be a lot of yeast in the blow off container, do I try and get this back in or just leave it?


I would def not try to get it back in, who knows what else is now breeding in that stuff!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Another necro thread.

After sucking at my first attempt in a 2 or 3 day sour with a handful of grain method, I kinda want to have another crack.

For several reasons, including:

1. I like Brett beers now, whereas I'd never tried them 3 years ago. That got me on the slippery slope of sours.
2. SWMBO in a "so suddenly I'm in love with a stranger" moment, loved my Saison
3. Said Saison was brewed with a long mash and overnight left in the keg to cool down and sour just a teensy bit.
4. I have more malted wheat than I will usually use.

Last attempt had the vomit smell in every glass and was really protein-y, even for a wheat beer. It tasted okay, but not what I've since tasted in a good BW, or even a lichtenheiner.

I'm torn between 3191, or (in the tinkering moments) the grain in the kettle method (and lactic acid). Or just leave it for a day in the urn.

How do you get rid of vomit smells in the finished product?


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## bevan

I used 3191 and left it for 6 1/2 months. I added 500g(needs more) of passion fruit pulp at 5 months in. It taste pretty damm good! I'll definitely be doing another with 3191. Though it's definitely a long time to wait for it to do its thing! I wouldn't mind trying a quick sour though, I've been thinking of using the Ethical Nutrients Inner Health tablets to get it sour. 
As for the vomit smell have a read of this
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Butyric_Acid
Cheers
Bevan


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## indica86

Yoghurt culture works well, I have done it a few times - sour overnight.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

indica86 said:


> Yoghurt culture works well, I have done it a few times - sour overnight.



A couple of tablespoons of Greek Yoghurt?


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## earle

I've been doing quite a few kettle sours lately in my urn. My BW picked up first place in the GCABC earlier in the year. I use the Ethical Nutrients IBS Support, about 5-6 capsules per batch, open the capsules of course. No vomit smell to speak of.

Basic method as follows:
Normal mash but with 10ml lactic acid (not for souring but to lower ph and inhibit other bacteria during the souring process)
Bring to boil, hold at boil for a period then chill (aiming to come back to 40C).
Pitch lacto from tablets, lag urn and set to 40C.
Leave for 24-48 hours.
Bring to boil and do hop boil, only low IBU though - whatever for style.
Chill and pitch yeast.
The low ph of the wort makes life harder for yeast. At the least pitch 2 packs instead of one and rehydrate.
Ferment
Keg
Carbonate
Enjoy


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## indica86

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> A couple of tablespoons of Greek Yoghurt?



No, I have the actual culture in the freezer for homemade yoghurt


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

indica86 said:


> No, I have the actual culture in the freezer for homemade yoghurt



Should see if SWMBO wants to break out the Easy Yo again.

Thanks heaps, I'll have to obtain a culture.


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## Lionman

sorry wrong thread


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## JDW81

Am going to have a crack at a Berliner this week, and am tossing up whether to kettle sour or sour in the fermenter. Still undecided at this stage. I'm leaning towards a kettle sour with a pure lacto culture, followed by cubing post a good boil to kill the bacteria. My main concern with this is getting my kettle sealed enough to prevent excess oxygen introduction.

Has anyone done both methods and found a noticeable difference in flavour/sourness?

Cheers,

JD


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## AJ80

Hey JD,

I've done both before. The difference (to my palate anyway) is that I've found kettle soured beers produce a really clean, but simple lacto sourness. Very refreshing and enjoyable. Quick and the boiling means you don't need dedicated sour gear. I've found long and slow souring (with a mixed culture) produces a more complex sourness which I find more interesting. There are pros and cons to both methods, but both will make enjoyable sours!

The way I try and minimise oxygen when kettle souring is by keeping a CO2 blanket in place (topped up every 24 hours), putting a layer of cling film on the wort, a lid on the kettle and then wrapping the top of the kettle with a towel. Works for me. 

Good luck mate.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

One possible method for reducing aerobic bacterial influence when kettle souring is to float a boat filled with SMS and lactic acid on the surface of the wort. This should blanket the surface with SO2 and inhibit the aerobic bacteria.

It's a common trick in the wine indusry when you have to deal with those godawful Italian variable capacity tanks (except we use citric for slower release).

I've never done it in the kettle since the only kettle souring I've done has been on commercial sized brewhouses, but I'll give it a go at home scale on an upcoming Gose brew and report back.


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## JDW81

Cheers Fellas,

Will probably go with the kettle sour initially, so I don't have to tie up my gear for as long and put away a few cubes for the warmer months to come.

JD


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