# Fully Automated Brewing System Design



## Bandito

I have been planning an automated brewing system for a couple of months now. I started designing a process flow diagram tonight, which is the first real step towards making it a reality. I am doing the reasearch and development at the same time, so far I have worked out how to automate valves: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry571367

I am a draftsman and have drafted a few manifolds for commercial brewerys. I also have a fair bit of experience in reading process flow diagrams (PFD's) and modeling pipes and equipment to achieve the process. I work in 3d cad on xsteel, prosteel, autocad, solidworks and inventor, so I model the parts in the true 3d scale in x, y and z to ensure it all goes together.

Anyway, I am going to design and build an automated system to: mill, mash, lauter, boil, add hops, chill, culture yeast, mix yeastwith the wort, ferment, rack and clean everything including the mash tun.

Due to the space requirements and cost I am planning for the system to have about a 5 litre fermenter capacity. If it is a fully automated system, I think this should work well, as it will be able to run night and day until all fermenters are full. I have desided to use Labview software to control it all, as it is very graphical and easy to use. I expect the cost to come in around $2000 to $3000 excluding software, and take about 7 months.

I should have a preliminary process flow diagram in a week or so. But if anyone as already done one or knows where to find one please let me know, as I am expecting the PFD to take 2 months to complete minimum.


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## LethalCorpse

Subscribed.


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## MattC

Bandito said:


> I have been planning an automated brewing system for a couple of months now. I started designing a process flow diagram tonight, which is the first real step towards making it a reality. I am doing the reasearch and development at the same time, so far I have worked out how to automate valves: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry571367
> 
> I am a draftsman and have drafted a few manifolds for commercial brewerys. I also have a fair bit of experience in reading process flow diagrams (PFD's) and modeling pipes and equipment to achieve the process. I work in 3d cad on xsteel, prosteel, autocad, solidworks and inventor, so I model the parts in the true 3d scale in x, y and z to ensure it all goes together.
> 
> Anyway, I am going to design and build an automated system to: mill, mash, lauter, boil, add hops, chill, culture yeast, mix yeastwith the wort, ferment, rack and clean everything including the mash tun.
> 
> Due to the space requirements and cost I am planning for the system to have about a 5 litre fermenter capacity. If it is a fully automated system, I think this should work well, as it will be able to run night and day until all fermenters are full. I have desided to use Labview software to control it all, as it is very graphical and easy to use. I expect the cost to come in around $2000 to $3000 excluding software, and take about 7 months.
> 
> I should have a preliminary process flow diagram in a week or so. But if anyone as already done one or knows where to find one please let me know, as I am expecting the PFD to take 2 months to complete minimum.



so about $3000 for parts and what would you charge me for 7 months labour?  

Seriously it sounds like a mammoth effort, to do all those things??? the only thing you will need to do is pour your own beer! Good luck on your efforts. It would be good to give as regular updates as your can on this thread so as we can see your progress!!

Cheers

A member on this forum "Johnathon" has an automated system as well. Might be worth having a look.

Cheers and good luck


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## seemax

push a button and it does it all for you?

hmmm... doesn't sound like much fun to me :huh:


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## MarkBastard

MattC said:


> the only thing you will need to do is pour your own beer!



pfft that is so noughties. maccas drive throughs dont even do that anymore.

He can rig up a set of scales under his tap that holds the glass, and the scales shut off the tap when the glass is full. Maybe even some hydraulic glass tilting would be in order.


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## bum

Bandito, 7 pages of jealous bickering will probably occur here but don't let that think there aren't people interested in what you're doing. Please keep us updated.


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## johnw

How will you burn yourself on brewday? How will you leave a fermenter tap open once you start transfering hot wort? 

These are key issues to all homebrewers. 

DrinkBeer


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## Bandito

I would have to empty the bin that the grain get tipped into. and will have to punch in the recipes - thats one of the driving forces - being able to make small adjustments to each half slab brew.

Dont worry, it will be open source. no charge for the program or design. I will try to find this "Johnathon", that's the sort of info I am after.

Push a button? More like program a recipe on the pc, same same I spose.


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## kirem

<_< 
http://www.brewtroller.com/


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## LethalCorpse

Mark^Bastard said:


> pfft that is so noughties.


It starts.


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## pdilley

I've been looking into automation gear but low level and not just for brewing but for aquaculture and garden automation mostly through stringing USB IO boards on a Linux plug computer that runs on less than 2W and gives full programmable brains for all these sensors and relays. I was going to program my own microcontroller but found a decent priced full built IO board at $60 or $99 with 8 240VAC 25Amp relays to control. I was going to pick up some temperature sensors at $7 each from the same outfit and build a smarter than TempMate controller with full stepping and time control for just a little more than the cost of a TempMate. Not including plug computer which is size of a small wall wart and goes right in the wall with SD card, 1 gig Ethernet and USB connectors on the bottom. If only they had wifi as well I could have Garden Net running with fully autonomous smart nodes that talk to each other and update themselves and pull down weather data from BOM online.

Lot of ideas just need to get to writing the Linux daemons to do all I want it to do in proper languages no limited to microcontroller op codes.

If you want to use anything like this in your setup let me know and I'll get you sorted on where to go.

And yes you can use the to drive electronic valves or motors as well.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Franko

Bandito said:


> Anyway, I am going to design and build an automated system to: mill, mash, lauter, boil, add hops, chill, culture yeast, mix yeast with the wort, ferment, rack and clean everything including the mash tun.



There goes all the enjoyment of brewing your own beer.

Franko


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## davewaldo

Sounds like a great project. I'm curious though why you chose to only do 5L batches?

Having done many 5L mead batches I can tell you that once you account for trub and yeast you'd be lucky to get 4L. Which means you have 20% waste, and this doesn't factor dead space in tiny mashtuns and kettles etc. 

I'm not trying to pick holes, I'm just interested to hear how you came to this decision. 

Cheers,

Dave


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## Zwickel

Im very interested in automations, although I think it isnt possible to build a system that matches to all brewers demands.
There are so many different brewing systems out in the world, guess there are only a few looking and working identically.

Anyway, Ill be watching this venture with interest.

Cheers


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## Pumpy

Franko said:


> There goes all the enjoyment of brewing your own beer.
> 
> Franko



Exactly Franko,

Yep bandito you are still going to build a big robot to empty the mashtun and clean out the kettle with a scrubby . 

sounds like a university assignment to me .

You have to be able to mash a beer before you can automate a system.

I am sure you will enjoy building it more than brewing the beer .

Dont encourage him Zwickle remember Zizzles posts 10000 posts later and the auto brewery still looked like mine with a computer in front of it 

pumpy


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## LethalCorpse

So what if it is a university assignment? It'd still be a project of his own choosing, and an admirable one at that. Many folks like to open and close valves by hand. Some like to build stuff to do things for them. Maybe that would take the enjoyment out of it for the former crowd, but for the latter, the enjoyment is _in_ the solving of these problems through careful design. Every person on this forum is a geek, in one way or another. We're just geeks in different ways.


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## Bandito

davewaldo said:


> Sounds like a great project. I'm curious though why you chose to only do 5L batches?
> 
> Having done many 5L mead batches I can tell you that once you account for trub and yeast you'd be lucky to get 4L. Which means you have 20% waste, and this doesn't factor dead space in tiny mashtuns and kettles etc.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick holes, I'm just interested to hear how you came to this decision.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave



It just seems like a small enough volume to reduce the total size of the system including vessles to hold idophor solution etc. and total cost of vessels, valves and pumps to a level I can handle and afford. I am using successive approximation for this - I am making a guess and will size everything off it, and adjust it later if need be. It does effect required flow rates and this allows me to specify smaller pumps.

I plan on using HERMS to heat the mash, and a peristatic pump for pumping.


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## rwmingis

Subscribing myself too. 

Wow, it's quite the undertaking, wish you the best of luck. Reckon you'd be doing REALLY good to keep to that budget; for example just my RIMS system alone (here) has already surpassed a grand, and that's just the Mash, mainly because I bought my components here in Australia, and stuff cost's 3 times as much here than over seas. I did use the higher quality parts buuuuuut...

Looking forward to seeing your updates.

Cheers,

Rob


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## Mickydp1979

Sounds like great project.

Being an electronic engineer, this type of engineering appeals to me.

Also being an engineer, I like to get away from it all and make a big mess crushing grain, boiling wort and making beer 

Keen to see your progress though Bandito.


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## komodo

Bandito said:


> I am a draftsman and have drafted a few manifolds for commercial brewerys. I also have a fair bit of experience in reading process flow diagrams (PFD's) and modeling pipes and equipment to achieve the process. I work in 3d cad on xsteel, prosteel, autocad, solidworks and inventor, so I model the parts in the true 3d scale in x, y and z to ensure it all goes together.



I don't doubt your skills as a drafty - but this is a serious undertaking for a hobby.
From one drafty to another - good luck. 
I've worked with some of the best drafties out there and theres only a small handful that I believe could achive such a project single handedly. Even then I'd still not like to hold my breath for them. Good luck.

Personally if it were me I'd be looking to do at least half size (12L) batches. I actually think that hands on tinkering is going to be way more valuable than any amount of CAD work. Something I've learned alot about now that I run a fabrication workshop. You can spend 10 hours working something out in CAD that someone can work out in 5 minutes when manufacturing. 

Once again good luck - I'm definately subscribing to this!

PS what field of drafting are you in? Sounds like your in mechanical trades?


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## Adamt

Franko said:


> There goes all the enjoyment of brewing your own beer.
> 
> Franko



I completely and utterly disagree. If he (presumably) were to purchase an off-the-shelf, fully automated brewing system I could understand that comment. 

OP: What is your experience like with mash brewing? Designing equipment, and especially the control side of things will require some pretty solid knowledge of all stages of the brewing process. Definitely have a look at Brewtroller as kirem has suggested, that looks like it could do quite a bit of the automation work for you (on the wort production side of things, anyway)


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## Thirsty Boy

think vertically. Gravity is a hell of a lot more reliable than pumps or grain elevators.

Good luck


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## Franko

Franko said:


> There goes all the enjoyment of brewing your own beer.
> 
> Franko





Adamt said:


> I completely and utterly disagree. If he (presumably) were to purchase an off-the-shelf, fully automated brewing system I could understand that comment.



Im sorry to disagree I'm all for technology I love the stuff but IMHO a handmade handcrafted beer it wont be..

Franko


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## Adamt

True, it's not handmade, handcrafter beer, but it's beer made from a handmade (possibly), self-designed brewery, and I think that's just as, if not more impressive! 

Then again... Coopers still have "Hand Made by the Coopers family" on their bottles! :lol:

I guess it depends on what you enjoy about brewing as others have said... the amateur/pro engineers in here love the process, design and automation side, the am/pro microbiologists get a chubby from the yeast management side, and others love actually getting their hands dirty.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Thirsty Boy said:


> think vertically. Gravity is a hell of a lot more reliable than pumps or grain elevators.
> 
> Good luck


I agree with my learned brewer here. Gravity is great. Still I also like the technology that is built into my system. Mines three tiers with techno bling things for good control. It makes impressive beer !
GB


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## Sammus

Gotta disagree with the anti sentiments here, even if he did go and buy an off the shelf automated brewery. To me the whole point of home brewing isn't so I can spend 5 hours of my day mixing grains and water and waiting and boiling and cleaning shit up etc - I more like the side of it where I get to design my own recipes, and adjust them based on the taste of the finished product. I didn't get into this hobby so I could wait around for a big pot to boil, or so I could spend half my day waiting for conversion, or scrubbing steel pots. I got into it because I like to be able to design my own beer.


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## dj1984

Sammus said:


> Gotta disagree with the anti sentiments here, even if he did go and buy an off the shelf automated brewery. To me the whole point of home brewing isn't so I can spend 5 hours of my day mixing grains and water and waiting and boiling and cleaning shit up etc - I more like the side of it where I get to design my own recipes, and adjust them based on the taste of the finished product. I didn't get into this hobby so I could wait around for a big pot to boil, or so I could spend half my day waiting for conversion, or scrubbing steel pots. I got into it because I like to be able to design my own beer.



Spot on!!!


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## thelastspud

and imagine how many diffent beers you could make, at only 5 litres a go you could try an new recipe every couple of days.

ill be really interested how this turns out


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## newguy

Bandito,

When I designed my HERMS I originally intended it to be a set & forget arrangement. The first couple times testing it, however, made me realise that set & forget just wasn't feasible. There are a lot of things that can go wrong - your mash can set (no runoff), the pump can fail to prime, a leak can develop or the valves can get get stuck in the wrong state, etc etc etc. Not to mention the times when you want to extend/shorten your sacch rest, boil, change your hop additions, etc. To fully automate it, you have to have the necessary instrumentation/sensors to detect fault conditions, and they're expensive. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it's going to be tough. Your several month timeline will be stretched to several years by the time you finish.

I'd advise you to break the project into smaller ones. Each runs to completion, then the operator (you) is alerted. You then set up the system for the next step, press go and it performs the next step. And so on. This will allow you to squash the bugs in your system in a systematic fashion and it will also allow you to make sensible changes on the fly. Once these bugs are gone, you can then look into chaining these automated tasks together, a couple at a time.

I just wanted to warn you because I've been developing products and systems for many years and nothing ever works the first time. Take it from me, your project is very ambitious.


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## Jono_w

Good luck Bandito, sounds like a great project to me..
Don't let all the squabbling over automation put you off, brew it your way.
Cheers
Jonathon..


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## Pumpy

LethalCorpse said:


> So what if it is a university assignment? It'd still be a project of his own choosing, and an admirable one at that. Many folks like to open and close valves by hand. Some like to build stuff to do things for them. Maybe that would take the enjoyment out of it for the former crowd, but for the latter, the enjoyment is _in_ the solving of these problems through careful design. Every person on this forum is a geek, in one way or another. We're just geeks in different ways.



Yes your right LethalCorpse , we are a all a bit geeky ,I had built my first Brewery before I had made a mashed a beer it was like I was on a mission.

I suppose building a simple brewery involves a fair bit of time and cost , I cant imagine the time and cost and skills involved in an automated brewery but it can be done .

I just stopped changing the brewery and concentrated on the brewing.

Best of luck Bandito 

Pumpy


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## yardy

Bandito said:


> *Anyway, I am going to design and build an automated system to: mill, mash, lauter, boil, add hops, chill, culture yeast, mix yeastwith the wort, ferment, rack and clean everything including the mash tun.
> *



 

i thought i was cutting edge stepping up to a march pump from a 5 litre jug  

question, what do you plan to package the beer in, kegs or bottles ?

just me, but if i had the resources/brains to undertake this i'd be considering at least 12 litre batches, good luck

cheers

Dave



Komodo said:


> * Something I've learned alot about now that I run a fabrication workshop. You can spend 10 hours working something out in CAD that someone can work out in 5 minutes when manufacturing.
> *



B)


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## ianh

Sammus said:


> Gotta disagree with the anti sentiments here, even if he did go and buy an off the shelf automated brewery. To me the whole point of home brewing isn't so I can spend 5 hours of my day mixing grains and water and waiting and boiling and cleaning shit up etc - I more like the side of it where I get to design my own recipes, and adjust them based on the taste of the finished product. I didn't get into this hobby so I could wait around for a big pot to boil, or so I could spend half my day waiting for conversion, or scrubbing steel pots. I got into it because I like to be able to design my own beer.



and enjoying drinking it


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## WitWonder

newguy said:


> I just wanted to warn you because I've been developing products and systems for many years and nothing ever works the first time. Take it from me, your project is very ambitious.




"No project has ever been completed on time and on budget. Yours will not be the first."


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## katzke

Why?

Just because you can?

Lots of potential problems to keep you busy designing an automated brewery. How will you decide when to turn off the grain mill? How will you select all the grains and the amounts? How will you make water chemistry adjustments? How will your machine know if the yeast starter is done and good? How will you know if you have hit gravity? How will your machine know if the brewery is clean? I have never seen a computer or robot that can perform as well as a human in multitasking situations. Sure in repetitive or single tasks they rule. 

I guess if you like to design stuff and tinker more then you like brewing then it is a worthy pursuit. For the amount of money you are talking about you can certainly buy beer for less. The family may like to have you around also. But if you are the neighborhood weird scientist with no other tugs on your time go for it.

Dont bother about what I have to say. I still think people are nuts for paying for bottled water that comes from that same place as the tap water they get at home. Maybe you will are onto something.


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## alowen474

Excellent topic.
You'll get this sorted in no time.
Probably suggest to get a manual system together then automate each part as you go along.
This will get you brewing sooner and allow you to be more thorough with each part.

My 2c, get amongst it


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## Spoonta

good luck mate


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## megs80

Yeah man, Go for it!.

Keep us all posted on how you go with this. I have to agree with some of the guys here and reckon you should increase your batch size to 12L.

Cheers


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## randyrob

Bandito said:


> I am planning for the system to have about a 5 litre fermenter capacity



Wow that's tiny! having such a small system could open up a whole can of worms like lower efficiency, 
less thermal mass to maintain temps, it could even be a struggle to maintail consistancy (e.g. 1.42g vs 1.48g of 15%aa galaxy could throw the bitterness out of balance) 

For me designing, prototyping and implementing an automated system has worked out to be a bit of a catch-22. I spent time working on my system to save time on brewday.

Good luck to you

Rob.


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## markws

moving back on track - some one in a prev post mentioned brewtroller to support automating the a homebrew system. 

I am in the process of researching home brew systems to hopefully design a brew system that is functional, semi manual and has plenty of bling, and stumbled on the BCS-460, manufactured be embedded control concepts. I like the product as there is a thrid party app to drive the software via a itouch/iphone and appears to offer flexability and diversity to grow and modify the way you would like to control your system. 

Currently in my mind a mixture of the Brutus Ten and the BCS-460 represents a nice mixture of manual interaction on a brewday plus the bling factor!!!

Link attached.

http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/

MWS


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## AndrewQLD

It's good to see that after all this time the BCS-460 finally supports celcius. That was what put me off buying that unit 12 mths ago, it's a very good piece of kit for the dollars.

Andrew


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## Bandito

Wow! I hade no idea this thread would invoke such an interest!. I am trying to refrain from answering all the questions as I am hard at work developing the process flow diagram. I am taking note of all the suggestions and they are influencing the design. The gravity thing is noted, as is the larger batches - I just put in 24 x5L fermenters spread over two fridges and got freaked out at the probable cost of an extra 48 machanised valves!. I had a quick look at the brewtroller board with interest. And of course the comments on nothing ever working first time - agree. The yeast(s) will either enjoy their own fermenters dedicated to them, or will be harvested from previous brews, or mabbe a mixture. It seams I wont be doing this alone, All youz will be putting your two cents, I'm sure. If there is so much interest in it I am inclined to try to design it in a way that others could make use of it. The first step is to get a full process flow diagram going - better get back to it....

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
Bandito


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## Bandito

Attached a pdf of the current state of the pfd. Please dont comment on it - there is so much wrong with it its not funny. It is just a snapshot of a work in progress. I have probably done like 5 hours on it so far, so I guess I am about 2 to 5% into the process design phase. After this will be the P&ID drawings (Process and Instrumentation Diagrams) which will detail the process control requirements (relay connections etc.), then the Electrical diagrams which will detail the power requirements - a long process, but if I do it properly most of the time will be spent doing this boring stuff. By the time I order my first part every facet will be sorted.

V- are valves
P- are pumps
LC- are load cells (scales) Thanks to mark^bastard for the idea. this should help with measuring grain, hops, water and yeast slurry!
R-1 is a reducer to reduce the 4mm OD tube from the water filter to the brew piping.
MV- are mill valves
HV- are hop valves 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_Layout1.pdf


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Do a google on a "continuous fermentation" system it may help your fermentation design side of things. If you cant find any thing I will have a look through my books.
GB


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## Bandito

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Do a google on a "continuous fermentation" system it may help your fermentation design side of things. If you cant find any thing I will have a look through my books.
> GB




This may explain why the manifolds I have drafted reciently were yeast blending manifolds. It always puzzled me - are they just harvesting yeast from batches that have achieved final gravity, or are they constantly circulating the wort to achieve a wort with yeast suspended in it as opposed to having a yeast cake on the bottom for a lager or a trub on the top for an ale. Not sure but reading that link now. Clocked off designing the system for the night...


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## rwmingis

Haha, he said "hop hopper".  

Looking at your PFD.PDF, looks like you've drawn one of these before. You're off to a good start, and good point on multiple fermenters, those valves are exxxy, even the solenoids are in smallish quanitities.

I will be interested in seeing how you cover cleaning/sanitisation and yeast management on the clean side of things.

Cheers,

BB.


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## yardy

Bandito said:


> Attached a pdf of the current state of the pfd. Please dont comment on it



gday bandito, sorry mate but where's the kettle ? 

cheers

Dave


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## andytork

Once fermented are you bottling or kegging ?

Can you get 5L corny stype kegs (other than the disposable ones) ?

This may be reason to step up to at least around 9L


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## Bandito

Brewing Bob said:


> I will be interested in seeing how you cover cleaning/sanitisation and yeast management on the clean side of things.



Yep, thats going to be fun - not. will start putting it in now.



yardy said:


> gday bandito, sorry mate but where's the kettle ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



Oh yea, forgot.



andytork said:


> Once fermented are you bottling or kegging ?
> 
> Can you get 5L corny stype kegs (other than the disposable ones) ?
> 
> This may be reason to step up to at least around 9L



Probably a mixture of both. I've been thinking that multiple small batches could be added to the one fermenter. I am planning on using conical fermenters to help with the yeast collection and cleaning.


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## T.D.

I'm wondering whether the easiest way to build a fully automated brewery is to design it from a BIAB perspective? I'm just thinking out loud here but at least then you could potentially do the whole brew in one vessel, so no issues with pumping etc, would keep the whole pumping part of things to a minimum. You could brew, and even maybe ferment in the one vessel (obviously there may be issues with cooling and the merits of fermenting wort with hot break in it), but it would take a heap of the hassle out of the designing process...

You could have the mill release the grains into the immersed gran bag when the strike temp is met, and then have another winch hoyst the grain bag out of the pot after a certain time, then boil for a certain time, then another mechanism that releases yeast into the wort when it cools to pitching temp (either by recirculating it through a chiller or just letting it naturally cool, the latter would obviously be more risky). The beauty of this method is that sterilising fermenters and transfer hoses would not be necessary (which could be an additional stress that you don't need).

Again just thinking out loud...


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## jetman

This post has just blown me away, previously being a mechanical engineer and having started electrical engineering this week i feel jaded with myself for not having thought of it, but i guess as yet i'm still getting to know the basics of brewing and one must crawl blah blah blah.

I am very keen to see what you come up with and wish you the best of luck, however I agree with a few of the other members in saying that for me this would take away from my brewing experience. I would add that your budget seems tight at first glance but really hope you get it together.

Please do keep the posts coming.


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## OzMick

Bandito said:


> Yep, thats going to be fun - not. will start putting it in now.



Hygiene will make or break this project, don't underestimate it. If you read about people's experiences with commonly used full bore stainless ball valves, they need to be broken open frequently, heat and sanitiser alone only go so far and they do eventually foul up and are easy to discount as the source of ongoing infection. Will probably need to be looked at as a periodic maintenance thing to strip everything down every so often, the price to step up to truly sanitary valves so that you can confidently clean in place will probably be unrealistic.

If you're considering doing brews immediately after the other, you might want to run your first stage wort chiller waste water back into your hot liquor tank rather than to drain to recover some heat and save some time getting water to temperature, can probably get close to strike temperature with an adequately sized chiller.


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## Batz

Ross has one of these now, soon to be shown off I believe...can I come? can I, can I?

Batz


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## komodo

Why have a hlt? with a 5L batch surely an instantanious hot water system would make more sence especially with this whole automated brewery setup.
Also as pointed out you dont have a kettle listed but you have hops going into the HLT.

I dont think your 3000 budget is even close to what this is going to cost you


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## Bandito

T.D. said:


> I'm wondering whether the easiest way to build a fully automated brewery is to design it from a BIAB perspective?



Hmmm, I've been quite worried about how to avoid grain getting stuck in the false bottom in the mash tun and how to get it out to clean under it. Mabee a biab type piece of cloth could be used as a pre filter so that when the mash/lauter tun is turned upside down (as it will be on hinges) to empty the spent grain it all comes out in one huge clump as it will be inside the bag. Nice! thanks.



jetman said:


> I would add that your budget seems tight at first glance but really hope you get it together.



The budget is to make sure I dont go too overboard. It is just a guestimate. Until I know what hardware is required it will only be a guesstimate.



OzMick said:


> Hygiene will make or break this project, don't underestimate it. If you read about people's experiences with commonly used full bore stainless ball valves, they need to be broken open frequently, heat and sanitiser alone only go so far and they do eventually foul up and are easy to discount as the source of ongoing infection. Will probably need to be looked at as a periodic maintenance thing to strip everything down every so often, the price to step up to truly sanitary valves so that you can confidently clean in place will probably be unrealistic.



Agreed. The Clean In Process is the most important part of the whole system - no expense can be spared here - I do intend on using sanitary valves, triclovers etc. I dont think there is any other way.



Komodo said:


> Why have a hlt? with a 5L batch surely an instantanious hot water system would make more sence especially with this whole automated brewery setup.
> Also as pointed out you dont have a kettle listed but you have hops going into the HLT.
> 
> I dont think your 3000 budget is even close to what this is going to cost you



I am not sure what you mean by an instantaneous hot water system? I dont want to use gas inside the house so would this be electric?

As for the HLT / kettle thing, I am not sure which is which. I thought the HLT was the hot liquour tank in which the wort was boiled, and the kettle was where the brew water was heated for mashing and sparge water or is it the other way around?



Wall, all I managed to get done tonight was the airation system, overflows into the drain that will be open when filling the fermenters and when cleaning, and added sanitary filters for CO2 release. Also added a revision and title table to keep track of changes to the design, and added an aquipment and valve list which I started filling out with typical equipment numbers to help read the diagram. Working toward the CIP one bit at a time, bit it is going to take at least a week.

So tonights snapshot of the current design is attached... 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_REV_B.pdf


----------



## Bandito

Some replies to earlier posts as I exceeded the limit of quoted replies!.....



Mark^Bastard said:


> pfft that is so noughties. maccas drive throughs dont even do that anymore.
> 
> He can rig up a set of scales under his tap that holds the glass, and the scales shut off the tap when the glass is full. Maybe even some hydraulic glass tilting would be in order.



Great idea! I have been grappeling with how to measure quantities of grain, hops, water - scales are the answer - or more precisley, load cells which are in scales. 



bum said:


> Bandito, 7 pages of jealous bickering will probably occur here but don't let that think there aren't people interested in what you're doing. Please keep us updated.



Not much zealous bickering yet, but plenty of posts. Wasnt expecting it, but it does help with the dive to get it done. If I hadnt posted I probable would have sat back and waited another several months - now I am working on it hardcore.



DrinkBeer said:


> How will you burn yourself on brewday? How will you leave a fermenter tap open once you start transfering hot wort?
> 
> These are key issues to all homebrewers.
> 
> DrinkBeer



The burning yourself on brewday will be replaced by how will I give myseld a mild electric shock from the 24Volt system that I failed to ground properly, the countless valves that decide not to work for some reason, the hundreds of wires that get mixed up with each other and the inevitable fermenter valve that opens all on it own for some unknown reason and drips wort over and into everything, requiring several hours of cleanup...



kirem said:


> <_<
> http://www.brewtroller.com/



Looking into that. thanks!

:lol:


Brewer Pete said:


> I've been looking into automation gear but low level and not just for brewing but for aquaculture and garden automation mostly..SNIP...
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



I considered this path too, but thats for my next project - a fully autonamous robot that is not limited by not being able to harm humans! I have a pc which is on most of the time and my mate doing a phd suggested labview as a really easy way to automate stuff, so I figured why not give it a go.



Zwickel said:


> Im very interested in automations, although I think it isnt possible to build a system that matches to all brewers demands.
> Cheers




If there were there would probably be only one style of beer in the world, and none of us would like it and so we would probably brew our own with our custom designed brew sytems!



Pumpy said:


> Yep bandito you are still going to build a big robot to empty the mashtun and clean out the kettle with a scrubby
> pumpy



I wont be that big a robot! the mash tun will be mounted to a hinge, and a tap sprayer will be mounted to the mash tun so all I need is a lever thingy to tip it over and then spray it with water. I can clean out the clingon's each day, but that may be 5 batches or so.



Pumpy said:


> sounds like a university assignment to me .
> 
> You have to be able to mash a beer before you can automate a system.
> 
> I am sure you will enjoy building it more than brewing the beer .
> 
> Dont encourage him Zwickle remember Zizzles posts 10000 posts later and the auto brewery still looked like mine with a computer in front of it
> 
> pumpy



I dont go to uni, I work to support my brewing habbit.

Yea, I do need to get the mashing process down pat - only 3 AG's so far.

Yes, I will probably enjoy building it more than brewing beer - who wouldnt!

Zwickle has already influenced me! I have seen his pc setup in a photo blog. It is too big for me, I am after something about the size of a fridge (excluding brew fridge). I also dont want to automate gas heating. A couple with a baby live below me so I have to eliminate the possibility of a leak and un-ignighted fuel which would lead to an explosion. So I am left with electric which has limits to the volume that can be heated. I also dont want it outside, it is limited to my small laundry or if really need be - my bathroom.


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> Zwickle has already influenced me! I have seen his pc setup in a photo blog. It is too big for me, I am after something about the size of a fridge (excluding brew fridge). I also dont want to automate gas heating. A couple with a baby live below me so I have to eliminate the possibility of a leak and un-ignighted fuel which would lead to an explosion. So I am left with electric which has limits to the volume that can be heated. I also dont want it outside, it is limited to my small laundry or if really need be - my bathroom.



The thought that the use of electricity for heating is holding you down to small batches shows a lack of reading on this site. I seem to recall several people have electric 3 vessel systems with control. The fact that you are not sure what an HLT does and that you think you need to brew small when using electricity for heat says you need to do some more research. You can flow chart all day but if you do not understand the process it is just for fun because the final product has little chance to work. Get a better understanding of the process and write an outline before you go to all the effort to design a process control system of a process you do not understand.

Sorry if I sound like an ass but dont have time to PC the post so I just said it.


----------



## Bandito

katzke said:


> The thought that the use of electricity for heating is holding you down to small batches shows a lack of reading on this site. I seem to recall several people have electric 3 vessel systems with control. The fact that you are not sure what an HLT does and that you think you need to brew small when using electricity for heat says you need to do some more research. You can flow chart all day but if you do not understand the process it is just for fun because the final product has little chance to work. Get a better understanding of the process and write an outline before you go to all the effort to design a process control system of a process you do not understand.
> 
> Sorry if I sound like an ass but don't have time to PC the post so I just said it.



You do sound like an ass, but you are forgiven. The first post details my specifications, not my last. Quote from OP: "Due to the space requirements and cost I am planning for the system to have about a 5 litre fermenter capacity".

My last question is related to nomenclature - terminology - glossary of terms. I know their purpose, but there are conflicting posts here and on the net - thus the question.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> *Hmmm, I've been quite worried about how to avoid grain getting stuck in the false bottom in the mash tun and how to get it out to clean under it. Mabee a biab type piece of cloth could be used as a pre filter so that when the mash/lauter tun is turned upside down (as it will be on hinges) to empty the spent grain it all comes out in one huge clump as it will be inside the bag. Nice! thanks.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *As for the HLT / kettle thing, I am not sure which is which. I thought the HLT was the hot liquour tank in which the wort was boiled, and the kettle was where the brew water was heated for mashing and sparge water or is it the other way around?
> *




gday bandito,

mash tun: _a piece of cloth_ in a fully automated system ?

why not a decent sized dump valve in the base of the Tun to assist with cleaning ?

for this to work you should be underletting your strike water also (water from HLT flows in under the false bottom)

to CIP after the spent grain has been dumped your rinse/spray water would first flow from the top and then from the underlet, everything goes out the dump valve.

i'm not saying this would work as i think there will always be a small amount of grain left behind in the false bottom but i think if you're serious it's a better alternative than a piece of cloth that could present lautering problems, high pressure and a series of rinses through the dump valve would help.



in order, HLT to MLT to Kettle

cheers

Dave


----------



## pdilley

Sounds like brewing in an apartment from the description re: gas and baby downstairs post.

So two things constraining the OP. Physical space to fit the brewery gear and Number of electric circuits to run the electric heaters. The first there isn't much to do except build as much vertical into it as possible to minimise floorspace and the latter is to find the circuit breaker and identify (if noncircuit diagram handy by switching each one off/on with lights or stereos or other items plugged into each outlet while switched on and see what stays on and powered and what got turned off) how many actual circuits you have and what Amp ratings the breakers are set to in order to maximize how many circuits can be tapped at the same time to power all the heating elements (sans the kitchen circuit as turning the fridge off for all the time needed heating and boiling is not a good idea). That could eliminate then heating/capacity boiling issue but you still have to face the first issue of physical space.

The space issue I can get a feeling you have addressed from your writing but don't get a strong feeling of the electric circuit issue for tapping for driving multiple heating coils so look into it if you have not as you may be able to solve your volume issues. Drive one coil per circuit at the maximum wattage levels you can safely drive on each circuit that it can handle.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## randyrob

Hey Bandito,

Just a FYI, I have an all electric system and I can easily crank out a 30L Batch and not exceed the standard 10Amps that comes out of the mains, my boil off rate is 8% per hour in the kettle.





P.S. I also have a combined HLT/Kettle, this could be a good idea for yourself to save on, valves, elements, temperature sensors, vessles etc.....


----------



## Bandito

Its really starting to come along now! Just added the CIP. Everything seem like it would work flow wise. The choice of cleaners is something I need to research a lot more, and the mash tun need some major design, I think I may have to design a custom vessel to aid the cleaning. Still a lot of checking and simplification to go as well.

Latest design attached 

Just added up the number of valves - 45 (realised V-4 isnt required). Thats a lotta valves. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_REV_C.pdf


----------



## Pumpy

The best beer I tasted came from Tonys brewery consisted of ,one kettle a few bricks a burner and an esky, keep it simple brew better beer 

 Pumpy


----------



## T.D.

Pumpy said:


> The best beer I tasted came from Tonys brewery consisted of ,one kettle a few bricks a burner and an esky, keep it simple brew better beer
> 
> Pumpy



I agree Pumpy. Some of the best beers I have made have come from my little plastic bucket system, consisting of a few 25L pails and an immersion element...

But whatever floats your boat I guess. I don't think I would ever embark on a project like this, as a lot of the hobby's enjoyment for me comes from the brewday, and all the hands on stuff that goes along with it. My personal view is having a fully automated system is akin to just buying some decent microbrews from the bottlo. It becomes more about the engineering of a system than the actual brewing, which is fine, but I gues sthe hoppy kind of becomes fabrication then rather than homebrewing...? Just my personal thoughts, but I wish Bandito well in his mission all the same...


----------



## OzMick

That valve count seems excessive. If you place outlet valves from fermenters close to the CIP/beer out loop, you should minimise dead legs, and then just do the entire pipework loop with as few valves as possible flushing all of that section of pipework every time it is used. Will mean longer flush cycles to do all the pipework every time, but every valve just means more places for bugs to hide if getting cheap valves, or more $$$ if getting good ones. Either way, minimising valves should be an objective. I think I can identify at least 10 that are redundant.

If your pipes and valves can take it and you are comfortable handling it, consider having the caustic heated and using something like proxitane/peracetic acid as a sanitiser. I think you need to look at industrial grade sanitation, don't give the bugs a chance, a mystery infection will make you pull hair out. Occasionally tearing down 2 valves in a manual system is inconvenient, having to do 45 when the goal was to minimise labour would make me question why I bothered.


----------



## rwmingis

Hi Bandito,

With regards to your power limitations, another thing you can consider is timesharing of power by the different heating elements. I ran into this same issue with my RIMS system. Naturally I have a heating element in my RIMS system which happens to be 2400 W which is the max for a typical 240V house circuit. I also want to control my HLT element with the same unit, however, this two is 2400 W which means if both are running then I'm looking at 4800 W which is too much.

The way around this I think is to consider how you limit the power to these demands (thanks LethalCorpse for the theory). You don't control these elements via a potentiometer, you use burst fire control which is like PWM (pulse width modulation) for high power AC current. Effectively it means you turn full power on to the burner for a set amout of time, and off for a set amount of time to limit the average power to the element. So, knowing that you have 50 cycles per second of mains power, you have 100 half cycles per second as well (each half cycle being 1000ms/100 = 10ms, or 10 milliseconds). If I need to run my element at 24% then, during every second, I have the element at full power for 24 half cycles (240 ms), and off for 76 half cycles (760 ms), using a zero crossing solid state relay (SSR).

During the time that the RIMS element is off (760ms), then I can send 100% of the unused mains power run my HLT element, meaning that I never draw more than 10 amps.

Now the question becomes, "is there a time when I need both elements at more than 50% concurrently?", I don't know, but I don't really think so. I'll get the HLT up to temp before mashing, and then it's just maintaining the temp in the HLT somewhere around 77C, meaning I can do it to it with the RIMS element. Your system might have different requirements.

I'll be doing all this with and embedded PIC microcontroller, however, I'm sure it can be done many ways, ie PLC or computer.

Having said that, I agree with a few of these folks when it comes to brewing experience. Although I don't know your level of experience, and obviously you have a good bit of process experience, it's crucial that you have the _brewing_ process down pact(sp) before you begin building the thing. It's fine to begin the design now, but as you gain more experience in brewing you'll want to change things as you become more familiar with the process, and wish you had incorporated a change before building it, ie before it's "too late". This is why it took me ages to design my RIMS system. As I found problems in the process, or pains, etc. i incorporated solutions into my RIMS system (ie sampling vavles, and bleed valves for priming) which sometimes meant almost starting back from scratch wasting heaps of time. In your case you might decide power timesharing is necessary and have to change the whole process, who knows.

We'll be watching this space with interest, good luck.  

Rob


----------



## Bandito

OzMick said:


> That valve count seems excessive. If you place outlet valves from fermenters close to the CIP/beer out loop, you should minimise dead legs, and then just do the entire pipework loop with as few valves as possible flushing all of that section of pipework every time it is used. Will mean longer flush cycles to do all the pipework every time



I need a valve inbetween each fermenter so I can pump from any fermenter say F-2 into anyother fermenter F-1 (If I want to do that). If I only want to pump from the yeast tank YT-1, into the fermenters then I just need a valve upstream of the yeast tank.

Everything will have to be cleaned even to just clean the beer out line.



OzMick said:


> If your pipes and valves can take it and you are comfortable handling it, consider having the caustic heated and using something like proxitane/peracetic acid as a sanitiser. I think you need to look at industrial grade sanitation, don't give the bugs a chance, a mystery infection will make you pull hair out. Occasionally tearing down 2 valves in a manual system is inconvenient, having to do 45 when the goal was to minimise labour would make me question why I bothered.



Yea, I am planning on using the herms to heat the caustic. I have looked again at where three valves join, and in some places they can be replaced with just two.

On pumpy's suggestion to keep it simple I have removed the water tank that recycled the hot water from the chiller, that water is damn hot.


----------



## OzMick

Bandito said:


> I need a valve inbetween each fermenter so I can pump from any fermenter say F-2 into anyother fermenter F-1 (If I want to do that). If I only want to pump from the yeast tank YT-1, into the fermenters then I just need a valve upstream of the yeast tank.



Good point. On this small scale you might be able to get away with using air top pressure to transfer between fermenters rather than a pump, and still do away with a lot of valves by just isolating each end of the tank header then opening the two tanks transferring between. Either way, you'll need to think about how to control when to stop the pump or shut off valves to control oxygen pickup.


----------



## Pumpy

T.D. said:


> I agree Pumpy. Some of the best beers I have made have come from my little plastic bucket system, consisting of a few 25L pails and an immersion element...
> 
> But whatever floats your boat I guess. I don't think I would ever embark on a project like this, as a lot of the hobby's enjoyment for me comes from the brewday, and all the hands on stuff that goes along with it. My personal view is having a fully automated system is akin to just buying some decent microbrews from the bottlo. It becomes more about the engineering of a system than the actual brewing, which is fine, but I gues sthe hoppy kind of becomes fabrication then rather than homebrewing...? Just my personal thoughts, but I wish Bandito well in his mission all the same...



Yes i agree TD , you know me , I love change , its all part of the forum ,just a little bit of reality check dont hurt .


best of luck Bandito 

pumpy


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Pumpy.



OzMick said:


> Good point. On this small scale you might be able to get away with using air top pressure to transfer between fermenters rather than a pump, and still do away with a lot of valves by just isolating each end of the tank header then opening the two tanks transferring between. Either way, you'll need to think about how to control when to stop the pump or shut off valves to control oxygen pickup.



What is air top pressure? Gravity? edit- yea it is.

Due to the position of the pump, it seems I cant pump from fermenter 1 into fermenter 3 without either reversing the pump direction or adding a few more valves. Reversing the peristatic should be fine.

Latest design attached. Removed some valves (now 37), numbered the valves and added them to the list, and started filling out the types so an approximate price can be worked out.

Done quite a few hours on this aver the past few days, probably 15 to 20 so far, I'm stuffed! 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_REV_D.pdf


----------



## jagerbrau

IM interested in limited control well its temp control only. still like turning taps and stuff. Even the bigger brewery that i have played with was lots of tap turning and pulling apart at the end of the work day. Im looking at the computer based solution mentioned earlier in thread, my question is can anyone recomend a ebay supplier of ssr, im not only needing couple for this project but couple for other projects.

If any one can point out one they have dealt with would be good. Cheers..


----------



## Bandito

jagerbrau said:


> IM interested in limited control well its temp control only. still like turning taps and stuff. Even the bigger brewery that i have played with was lots of tap turning and pulling apart at the end of the work day. Im looking at the computer based solution mentioned earlier in thread, my question is can anyone recomend a ebay supplier of ssr, im not only needing couple for this project but couple for other projects.
> 
> If any one can point out one they have dealt with would be good. Cheers..



Jaycar have a 240V 40A Solid State Relay CAT no. SY-4084 for $47.95 Doesnt say its a zero resistance one. Has control inputs that work from 4V to 30V dc. Have a look at Jaycar.com.au

Update: I have eliminated two pumps! So there is only one pump controlling it all!

A quick estimate suggests there is about $2000 of valves atm. I have an idea for a cheap design using a geared motor to compress a neoprene or teflon tube that is mounted on a board supported by a spring. I started making a prototype by dont have a strong spring  So its off to bunnings tomorrow. The amount of pressure it can hold back will be determined by the strength of the spring. Even so. I wouldnt use it for critical valves, but it would be sanitry

Does anyone know where to get teflon tubing? I have been looking for about 14 years!


----------



## komodo

Thought that budget was a little slim...

as for gaycar SSRs... flee bay will get you the same item 3 times over for that price.

I've purchased 5 SSRs from seller virtualvillage on ebay

edit:

ebay example with heatsink
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Solid-State-Relay-S...=item5ad66c25e0


----------



## jagerbrau

cheers for that will troll evilbay for a some.....


----------



## Bandito

Komodo said:


> Thought that budget was a little slim...



Might not be so slim afterall... changed quite a few valves to my unproven theoretical design of a geared motor crushed tube valve and the estimated cost is looking better. I can get the geared motors from jaycar for $11 after a bulk discount and a trade discount which I have cos I spend heaps there. I havent added the cost of springs - and they do cost heaps. Spose I should do some ebay trolling myself. Planning on ordering from OS to get cheaper prices.

Latest design and a preliminary sketch of the valve design is attached - is this sort of design used anywhere? Is there a commercial example? 

There will be a bolt or screw screwed from the underside of the bottom plate, and that will have a small spring threaded onto the top of it. By adjusting the height of this second small screw, the pressure exerted on the tube can be adjusted. This second screw will complete a circuit which will cut off power to the geared motor. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_E.pdf


View attachment GEARED_MOTOR_CRUSHED_VALVE_REV_A.pdf


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito said:


> Does anyone know where to get teflon tubing? I have been looking for about 14 years!



guess you wont find any, teflon is far too expensive for that. You may use silicon tubings instead. All the tubings around my little brewery are made of silicon.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## newguy

Bandito said:


> Jaycar have a *240V 40A* Solid State Relay CAT no. SY-4084 for $47.95 Doesnt say its a zero resistance one. Has control inputs that work from 4V to 30V dc. Have a look at Jaycar.com.au



What are you planning to drive with that!?! That can handle nearly 10kW!!!


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> You do sound like an ass, but you are forgiven. The first post details my specifications, not my last. Quote from OP: "Due to the space requirements and cost I am planning for the system to have about a 5 litre fermenter capacity".



Thanks for understanding the spirit of my last post.

If you are looking at a design that is the size of a stackable washer and dryer or a normal sized fridge and not one of the mini fridges I still think you can brew more then 5 liters at a time. It sounds like you are going to ferment in a second fridge next to the brew bot so you need to accommodate a boil kettle and mash tun. The hot liquid tank does not have to be that large as you only need enough to do a first infusion and can reheat the sparge water while mashing. Grain storage is minimal as you only have a few storage bins and will have to mix grain as some brews require more then three grain choices.

Just to let you know I did try and look at you pdf but it will not open on my old computer.

If the placement of the brew bot is next to plumbing then the size requirement is reduced by that convenience.

One thing to consider is instead of dumping the mash tun why not use a large valve and dump the grain? Or if you used flexible hose and a basket like the German brew system, which has been linked to in some of the BIAB threads, you could pull out the mash tun and pull the basket of grain. Then a rinse system could take care of the rest. The use of a kitchen garbage disposal in the drain line would deal with left over grain and the hops from the boil kettle.

Dont forget a way to vent the steam from the boil.

As to the suggestion of using air to push the wort in the fermentors. Low pressure CO2 is a much better choice, as you have no worries about oxidizing the wort. A simple pressure switch could be used to detect when the fermentor is empty as the resistance of the wort will be gone and the gas will flow faster and thus will reduce the pressure in an open system like fermentors should be. A timer could be used as a backup so you do not blow an entire tank when transferring.

Not sure if any of these suggestion will fit into your design.


----------



## Bandito

Zwickel said:


> guess you wont find any, teflon is far too expensive for that. You may use silicon tubings instead. All the tubings around my little brewery are made of silicon.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:



I used to use it on peristatic pumps on chemical analysis instruments when I was studying to be a chemical laboratory technician. Atomic adsorption spectrometers and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometers both use it. It is more hardy than neoprene. It does go opaque after months of pumping strong acids, but is clear and lasts longer than neoprene. Not sure if silicon is used in peristatic pumps? so not sure if it can handle repeated squashing?



newguy said:


> What are you planning to drive with that!?! That can handle nearly 10kW!!!



The next smallest one in the jaycar catalogue is a 3A version.



katzke said:


> f you are looking at a design that is the size of a stackable washer and dryer or a normal sized fridge and not one of the mini fridges I still think you can brew more then 5 liters at a time. It sounds like you are going to ferment in a second fridge next to the 'brew bot' so you need to accommodate a boil kettle and mash tun. The hot liquid tank does not have to be that large as you only need enough to do a first infusion and can reheat the sparge water while mashing. Grain storage is minimal as you only have a few storage bins and will have to mix grain as some brews require more then three grain choices.
> 
> Just to let you know I did try and look at you pdf but it will not open on my old computer.



Size of a fridge is my aim. There is also the cleanng chemical tanks which need to be larger than the largest vessel to be cleaned (2 x 30L)- this beefs the overall size up. And was hoping to use a 500W herms (just as an initial guess). But will see what the overall size comes out at in a few weeks.

I'll try to save the pdf's to an earlier version.


----------



## newguy

Bandito said:


> The next smallest one in the jaycar catalogue is a 3A version.



Shop around. Digikey, Mouser, Jameco, Newark just off the top of my head. Digikey is my preferred supplier - I think my SSR in my HERMS was ~$25 and it's rated at 20A, 240V. .......Just checked and digikey.ca has it in stock for $24.01. Link.


----------



## technocat

Bandito said:


> Jaycar have a 240V 40A Solid State Relay CAT no. SY-4084 for $47.95 Doesnt say its a zero resistance one. Has control inputs that work from 4V to 30V dc. Have a look at Jaycar.com.au
> quote]
> 
> Virtual Village on ebay have them for $16.00 + $7.00 P&P, I use two on my system and they work fine. Twist their arm and you will get it cheaper. Jaycar are licensed to print money.


----------



## yardy

yardy said:


> *why not a decent sized dump valve in the base of the Tun to assist with cleaning ?
> 
> for this to work you should be underletting your strike water also (water from HLT flows in under the false bottom)
> 
> to CIP after the spent grain has been dumped your rinse/spray water would first flow from the top and then from the underlet, everything goes out the dump valve.
> *






katzke said:


> *One thing to consider is instead of dumping the mash tun why not use a large valve and dump the grain?
> *




good idea  


another thing to consider is the steam from the kettle and the placement of the pipe from the hop distributor, ( i refuse to say hop hopper ) steam and residue from the hops will get messy in that pipe.

cheers


----------



## lonte

T.D. said:


> ... you could potentially do the whole brew in one vessel, so no issues with pumping etc, would keep the whole pumping part of things to a minimum.


I could kill for one of these http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...The-Braumeister - they even have a 200L version too! I'd add a HLT and sparge the grain once lifted from the vessel I think. Neat package all up though.


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> Size of a fridge is my aim. There is also the cleanng chemical tanks which need to be larger than the largest vessel to be cleaned (2 x 30L)- this beefs the overall size up. And was hoping to use a 500W herms (just as an initial guess). But will see what the overall size comes out at in a few weeks.



Well if you change from storing pre mixed chemicals to mixing them in the HLT then you remove that part of the problem. An automated system intended to brew multiple batches should only need a quick rinse after each operation. Even the ring of gunk in the boil kettle should respond well enough to a hot water rinse. If in doubt brew light to dark in color and flavor to keep the brews in style. You could even use a metered system of mixing to mix on the fly. Either of these would remove the need for a single or set of large tanks.

With what you will have tied up in this project flushing cleaners and sanitizers after one use is not unreasonable. Again you can use the HLT for temporary storage when doing a complete system clean. If you do it like a dish washer, then you can reduce the amount of cleaner used by an extended spray of the cleaner.

There are advantages to one time use of cleaners and sanitizers. No need to monitor them for effectiveness.

I find that Powdered Brew Wash is effective enough that a prolonged spray should do the trick. StarSan is a very effective contact sanitizer. You may want to get the new low foam product for this application or the foam may be a problem for you. In either case you would only need enough to fill the longest line plus some so the pump does not cavitate.


----------



## komodo

Ok im gunna sound like a jerk here but personally I think you should just **** off the grain hoppers unless your going to keep them with recipe grain bills. I think if you want the hoppers to actually opperate as I think your intending them (ie to weigh out the ingredients to each grain bill) your going to have countless issues with such small grain bills - especially if you are after repeatability. Not to mention that many recipes have more than 3 grains. 

I would piss them off all together you could easily do two brews a day by doing some manual labour and prepering your recipe grain bills yourself. Do one in the morning before work and one when you get home. The rest of the system should take car of cleaning and running itself so all you'd have to do would be to chuck the grains in the tun and hit the go button.

Likewise for the fermenters - piss off the automated distribution system and change over the fermenters when you prepare your grain bill. You'd save a tonne of effort in building something thats going to give you headaches trying to resolve small niggles. 2 batches ever 24 hours is 70L per week. If your drinking 10L of beer per day you have a serious health issue. if you upsized to 12L batches as your being encouraged to thats near on 170L. Lets discount that by 20% due to losses to trub etc and you still looking at 56L and 135L respectively or 2900L to 7000L per year or 320 slabs to 780 slabs per year... Even if your throwing a pissup every weekend 14slabs a week is a lot of beer.


----------



## OzMick

Bandito said:


> What is air top pressure? Gravity? edit- yea it is.
> 
> Due to the position of the pump, it seems I cant pump from fermenter 1 into fermenter 3 without either reversing the pump direction or adding a few more valves. Reversing the peristatic should be fine.



Sorry, I didn't realise the air you had connected was for wort aeration, just used to the way things are done at the big breweries. If you only have a wimpy fish tank pump it won't be powerful enough for what I was trying to describe, and would be connected at the bottom of the tank anyway. That being the case, you might want to think about having air injected inline at the outlet of the wort chiller. Will be easier to clean and only requires a single valve to be controlled regardless of tank number. The problem with having each tank individually aerated is that while not in operation, the tube running to the bottom of each tank will fill with beer and you'll have one helluva time making sure that tube is sanitised. You'll need to macgyver some section of pipe with an airstone inside of it, but would be my preference if I were building something.

What I was trying to describe was that pressurising a tank will hydraulically push a fluid in the same way as a pump, so while it is sort of like gravity, you can effectively push uphill with the pressure difference from one tank to another. 10kpa of pressure is roughly the equivalent of 1m of water head on a pump. You would need the ability to close off all CO2 airlocks and fermenters that can take a small amount of pressure, but gas valves should be cheaper considering you've got overflows on each fermenter to prevent any beer contacting them. Possibly not worth doing though if you can instead simplify the aeration system to just have an inline injection setup, but if gas valves are significantly cheaper than sanitary liquid ones and you have an air compressor that can deliver enough pressure, might still be an option to save a bit of coin.


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito said:


> ..... Not sure if silicon is used in peristatic pumps? so not sure if it can handle repeated squashing?



yes you can. Silicon is an inert material, relatively soft and preferred for usage in peristaltic pumps. All the labaratory analyzers Im working with, are equipped with silicon tubes.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## LethalCorpse

Norprene is also used in peristaltic pumps


----------



## rwmingis

Bandito,

2 things, ocean controls is another option for sourcing supplies like SSR's, they've gotten me out of a few binds, and they're Aussie which is nice. Don't know how their price relates to others however.

With regards to your crush valve, have you considered using a cam or an eccentric wheel (much easier) to crush the hose. You would probably need to put a bit of thin metal plate between the cam and the silicone tube to prevent wear on the tube from rubbing. A cam or an eccentric can help develop heaps more force with less torque. You could make the cam out of wood, or an eccentric wheel with something like 20mm round bar sliced into wafers with an eccentricly located hole for the shaft.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Bandito

lonte said:


> I could kill for one of these http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...The-Braumeister - they even have a 200L version too! I'd add a HLT and sparge the grain once lifted from the vessel I think. Neat package all up though.


Will have to have a good look at that, thanks.



katzke said:


> Well if you change from storing pre mixed chemicals to mixing them in the HLT then you remove that part of the problem. An automated system intended to brew multiple batches should only need a quick rinse after each operation. Even the ring of gunk in the boil kettle should respond well enough to a hot water rinse. If in doubt brew light to dark in color and flavor to keep the brews in style. You could even use a metered system of mixing to mix on the fly. Either of these would remove the need for a single or set of large tanks.
> 
> With what you will have tied up in this project flushing cleaners and sanitizers after one use is not unreasonable. Again you can use the HLT for temporary storage when doing a complete system clean.



Yea, I agree, concentrate it is me thinks! Dont want to require a doseing pump though, mabee my new grain hopper design will also work for powder, dumped into a pipe and washed out by water.



Komodo said:


> Ok im gunna sound like a jerk here but personally I think you should just **** off the grain hoppers unless your going to keep them with recipe grain bills.
> SNIP..
> Likewise for the fermenters - piss off the automated distribution system and change over the fermenters when you prepare your grain bill. You'd save a tonne of effort in building something thats going to give you headaches trying to resolve small niggles.



Hmmm, nah, its a fully automated system it is and a fully automated system it will be. Your post did give me the motivation to think about the grain hopper design and have decided that a gum ball machine type design will work. It is basically a large ball valve but with only one end open - when the open end is facing up, it fills with grain, when it is turned so it is facing down the grain falls out. The weight should be able to be accurately measured initially and all grain additions from that hopper will be in multiples of that amount. Currently making a prototype from a tin of tomatoes that I opened on the side. 



OzMick said:


> Sorry, I didn't realise the air you had connected was for wort aeration, just used to the way things are done at the big breweries. If you only have a wimpy fish tank pump it won't be powerful enough for what I was trying to describe, and would be connected at the bottom of the tank anyway. That being the case, you might want to think about having air injected inline at the outlet of the wort chiller. Will be easier to clean and only requires a single valve to be controlled regardless of tank number. The problem with having each tank individually aerated is that while not in operation, the tube running to the bottom of each tank will fill with beer and you'll have one helluva time making sure that tube is sanitised. You'll need to macgyver some section of pipe with an airstone inside of it, but would be my preference if I were building something.



The air pump that is mounted inside my fridge isnt strong enough to make bubbles if the tube is any more then 10cm below the surface! It wouldnt even pass as a wimpy fish tank pump . Interesting concept. The wort will still be warm when it comes out of the tap water chiller so not sure if I should be airating warm wort. Originally I did have a glycol chiller after the tap water chiller but deleted it for simplicity, space and cost. I have reciently learned that pitching yeast into warm wort is acceptable as it takes a while to use up the oxygen, by which time the wort would be cold - not sure if I subscribe to this as it might shock the yeast. You are right about needing to sanitise the air lines, was hoping to avoid this but nah, it would be needed I think. Lately I have just been airating wort by putting the tube 7cm or so into the wort from the top.




Zwickel said:


> yes you can. Silicon is an inert material, relatively soft and preferred for usage in peristaltic pumps. All the labaratory analyzers Im working with, are equipped with silicon tubes.
> 
> :icon_cheers:



Not as good as teflon, but Silicon it is! Thanks.

Neoprene is not clear, I would really really prefer clear tubing all round - had a bad dream last night where there was mould in my brew lines and I was cleaning them out with a pressurised hose - freaky!



Brewing Bob said:


> Bandito,
> With regards to your crush valve, have you considered using a cam or an eccentric wheel (much easier) to crush the hose. You would probably need to put a bit of thin metal plate between the cam and the silicone tube to prevent wear on the tube from rubbing. A cam or an eccentric can help develop heaps more force with less torque. You could make the cam out of wood, or an eccentric wheel with something like 20mm round bar sliced into wafers with an eccentricly located hole for the shaft.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rob



I did Bob, even the geared motor I am using has a shaft which is flat on one side. The thin piece of metal is what I am looking for but aside from a bearing - holy shit, that it, just mount a bearing on the exxentric cam! Your a geneous Bob! Thats the design!

Well, extremely happy with todays work. We got the grain dosing concept underway, which will also be used for the cleaning powders and hopfully for the hop dispenser too (he he). The tubing for the crushed valves and probably the entire system was decided. The design for the crushed valves was improved and will probably be the final design. and the system was reduced to just one pump! Frekin mad! Thanks for the help!


----------



## Zizzle

Well this thread is hilarious!

But there are a few gems of wisdom here.



Komodo said:


> ... I think you should just **** off the grain hoppers ....
> 
> Likewise for the fermenters ...



+1 Totally agree.

If you look at the people who have done successful automation projects (a few have popped up in this thread, and I humbly include myself) they end up simplifying. Lots of shit can and does go wrong. Often the solution is some simple retry logic in software. Over-engineering just gets you in trouble. Especially if you are not and engineer to begin with.

I'd recommend getting a decent working AG setup first. Then automate the easy parts. Get some experience with the trickier parts. Like automated valves. It took me a few different designs to get mine working nicely. And once I did I even reworked my system to need only two of them.

Software is key, and there will be bugs and trial and error. I intended to do the brewbot first in cheap & easy copper, brass and silicon before moving to more stainless.

Also protect your equipment. The brewbot has a flow sensor so it knows when the march pump is running dry or not primed. It has level probes in the vessels so that power is not applied to uncovered heating elements. The valve actuation motors have a series resistor of a few ohms so that they will not burn out if driven to stall against a value stop.

Anyway, enough for now. Lets see some real progress first.


----------



## Bandito

Zizzle said:


> If you look at the people who have done successful automation projects (a few have popped up in this thread, and I humbly include myself) they end up simplifying. Lots of shit can and does go wrong. Often the solution is some simple retry logic in software. Over-engineering just gets you in trouble. Especially if you are not and engineer to begin with.



The software and logic part of the design will come later - Strap yourself in when it does because there will be lots of failsafes' and fallbacks. I am a designer - does that count? or do I have to be a proces engineer that cant make up their mind on anythving?



Zizzle said:


> I'd recommend getting a decent working AG setup first. Then automate the easy parts. Get some experience with the trickier parts. Like automated valves. It took me a few different designs to get mine working nicely. And once I did I even reworked my system to need only two of them.



I dont subscribe to this. Jump in the deep end is what I say! The testing will be done before it is built in the research and development phase.



Zizzle said:


> Software is key, and there will be bugs and trial and error. I intended to do the brewbot first in cheap & easy copper, brass and silicon before moving to more stainless.
> 
> Also protect your equipment. The brewbot has a flow sensor so it knows when the march pump is running dry or not primed. It has level probes in the vessels so that power is not applied to uncovered heating elements. The valve actuation motors have a series resistor of a few ohms so that they will not burn out if driven to stall against a value stop.



Obviously these things will be implemented also, and documented in the P&ID phase.

Thanks for the input. There will be a continuous simplification process, but I always start out making it very complex, then simpliflying it - its just the way I work.



Zizzle said:


> Anyway, enough for now. Lets see some real progress first.



The real progress is always done in the design stage - otherwise you just spend ages redesigning and tweaking stuff after its built onlt to find it doesnt work.


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito, Im with Zizzle, sorry mate, you cant do the second step before the first one.

First step should be to get an AG setup running and then, when everything works failsafe, start designing step by step the automation.

Mate, I know exactly what Im talking about, started around 5 years ago with my current AG setup and its automation and Im not yet finished with it, although I gave up the plan to do a full automation, did only a semi automated system.

There are so many things you cant involve into the automation process, you have to do manually. The knowledge you need for automation, youll get whilst brewing manually your first beers.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best :icon_cheers:


edit: spellnik


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> The air pump that is mounted inside my fridge isnt strong enough to make bubbles if the tube is any more then 10cm below the surface! It wouldnt even pass as a wimpy fish tank pump  . Interesting concept. The wort will still be warm when it comes out of the tap water chiller so not sure if I should be airating warm wort. Originally I did have a glycol chiller after the tap water chiller but deleted it for simplicity, space and cost. I have reciently learned that pitching yeast into warm wort is acceptable as it takes a while to use up the oxygen, by which time the wort would be cold - not sure if I subscribe to this as it might shock the yeast. You are right about needing to sanitise the air lines, was hoping to avoid this but nah, it would be needed I think. Lately I have just been airating wort by putting the tube 7cm or so into the wort from the top.



A proper counter flow chiller will chill to Ale pitching temp in one pass. The exception may be if you are using warm water. 

I think I would stay with a counter flow chiller so you do not have to back flush like a plate chiller. The Chillzilla is a great chiller but costs a few bucks. Better ask the Easter Bunny or Santa for one. The big difference in the design is the tubing is not round inside. It was designed by someone that must know fluid dynamics. The wort is in turbulence so all of it gets exposed to the coolant.


----------



## technocat

Zwickel said:


> Bandito, Im with Zizzle, sorry mate, you cant do the second step before the first one.
> 
> First step should be to get an AG setup running and then, when everything works failsafe, start designing step by step the automation.
> 
> Mate, I know exactly what Im talking about, started around 5 years ago with my current AG setup and its automation and Im not yet finished with it, although I gave up the plan to do a full automation, did only a semi automated system.
> edit: spellnik



I couldn't agree more. I went through the same process couldn't see the point of it all as it achieved very little except to bolster ones ego at enormous financial expense.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Bandito

Well, dont take my determination to do this as ignorance or not listening, but the project will go ahead as planned. It is the 7th day and there are only 27 weeks to go till deadline, but am way ahead of schedule  .

Redrew a fair bit this morning. Removed the cleaning and brew water tanks, redrew the grain hoppers, added cleaning powder hoppers and updated the valve list - currently at 32 valves plus 2 float valves. I realised that similar designed hoppers for hops wouldnt work so decided on a carosel type design like Zwickel's, a motorised flap in the lid of the kettle should avoid steam wetting the pipe (similar for the grain pipe too).

Tonight I'll start adding tube sizes and specifications, and try to get something workable for the air in and out on the fermenters. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_F.pdf


----------



## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> ............... a motorised flap in the lid of the kettle should avoid steam wetting the pipe ................




you have a lid on the kettle? 

AFAIK The idea is to boil off the nasties, so they are carried away with the steam. With a lid on you will introduce these unwanted volatiles back into your wort.


Paul


----------



## Bandito

Well, I will need at least a half lid to achieve the purpose above. I was thinking of an exhaust, but just realised it wouldnt get cleaned. hmmm.


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> Well, dont take my determination to do this as ignorance or not listening, but the project will go ahead as planned. It is the 7th day and there are only 27 weeks to go till deadline, but am way ahead of schedule  .
> ...
> 
> Tonight I'll start adding tube sizes and specifications, and try to get something workable for the air in and out on the fermenters.



Mate,

I have to ask - this is just a theoretical exercise for you right ? You don't actually intend to build this do you ?

Yes ? Oh dear - there is just so many actual and potential problems 

Just quickly, how do you solve the basic requirement that the grain crushing area must be seperate from the fermentation area to avoid raging lactic infections ?

What about the steam moistening the grain and hop chutes and causing them to clog ?

How does the volitiles driven off during the boil escape without without condensing back into the boil ? Perhaps you like DMS in your lagers.

Where are the failsafe systems and mix proof piping ? There are so many valves that a minor stick or leak will introduce cleaner into your beer or wort. I don't see any overflows to ensure that vessels dont overflow if a valve sticks etc - there should be an outlet to drain that prevents vessels filling past the safe limit.

But anyway, have fun doing whatever you are doing.

Dave


----------



## WSC

Well done and good thinking on this project.

Lots of reasons this won't work or will be difficult BUT people probably said that to the first guy that tried to brew his own beer.

And I'm sure people have all said to most of us...why would you bother brewing, you can just buy it.

The only way we ever learn is by trying new things.

Good luck and good on ya.

:super: You are a pioneer!!!.....with way too much time on your hands...


----------



## Margwar

Good luck Bandito.
Looks like a massive undertaking, and I hope that going straight to the deep end pays off for you.
Thats OK though, we all have our own ideas and in the end we all produce wonderful beers in our own style.
This is what makes homebrewing so much fun. 
Myself being a bit of a geek and over the next few years would like to get a HERMS going, using temp controllers and the like. But in the mean time I want to perfect my AG style using the wealth of knowledge from these forums. Once I have that down pat I will introduce more complex processes to my brewery. I prefer a slow and steady approach and think that in the end I will produce a better end product by gaining knowledge and expierence along the way from my fellow brewers.
Cheers and good luck, I will be following your progress keenly!
Dietz


----------



## leiothrix

Also for components have a look at futurlec.

Price for 40A is USD17.90, which is better than some of the ones on ebay. And certainly better than Jaycar.

Rob.


----------



## Bandito

paulwolf350 said:


> you have a lid on the kettle?
> 
> AFAIK The idea is to boil off the nasties, so they are carried away with the steam. With a lid on you will introduce these unwanted volatiles back into your wort.
> 
> 
> Paul



Okay, so the mortorised valve will be mounted to a plate which will be positioned above and seperate from the kettle, it will be angled at 45 degrees minimum so any condensate will fall down to the bottom of it - where it will be folded around to form a drain that flows into the overflow pipe. Simple! will update tonights pdf with it. I did know that the kettle shouldnt have a lid on it, but I was wondering why ecactly - what does DMS stand for exactly?



bigfridge said:


> Mate,
> I have to ask - this is just a theoretical exercise for you right ? You don't actually intend to build this do you ?
> Dave



Err, what about this thread suggested otherwise? Yes I do intend to build a fully automated brewing system - it wont look much like the current design, as there is a lot of redesign and simplification to go, followed by complication, collowed by redesign and simplification....... etc. etc. etc.



bigfridge said:


> Yes ? Oh dear - there is just so many actual and potential problems
> 
> Just quickly, how do you solve the basic requirement that the grain crushing area must be seperate from the fermentation area to avoid raging lactic infections ?
> Dave



The post boil wort will bot be exposed to air that hasnt passed through a sanitary air filter.



bigfridge said:


> What about the steam moistening the grain and hop chutes and causing them to clog ?
> How does the volitiles driven off during the boil escape without without condensing back into the boil ? Perhaps you like DMS in your lagers.



Think its worked out earlier in this post.




bigfridge said:


> Where are the failsafe systems and mix proof piping ? There are so many valves that a minor stick or leak will introduce cleaner into your beer or wort. I don't see any overflows to ensure that vessels dont overflow if a valve sticks etc - there should be an outlet to drain that prevents vessels filling past the safe limit.
> 
> But anyway, have fun doing whatever you are doing.
> Dave



What do you define as mix proof piping exactly?
Yea, I have seen sticks in the grain, havent considered their presence... The cleaner lines are seperated with a ball valve turned by a strong geared motor - I would hope it would shut, but in the event that it didnt make it to its final position the system would produce an error. Interesting, thanks.
Overflows are on every vessel in the pdf's, they are called up as OFV- in the lower left of the page, but will read OF like they are on the vessels.

Cheers dude.



WSC said:


> Well done and good thinking on this project.
> 
> Lots of reasons this won't work or will be difficult BUT people probably said that to the first guy that tried to brew his own beer.
> 
> And I'm sure people have all said to most of us...why would you bother brewing, you can just buy it.
> 
> The only way we ever learn is by trying new things.
> 
> Good luck and good on ya.
> 
> :super: You are a pioneer!!!.....with way too much time on your hands...



They probably also said it to thomas crapper who invented the flushing toilet- which revolutionalised sanitation throughout the planet, the CSIRO who invented the modern solar panel, CSIRO and Varian Australia (a company that makes chemical analysis instruments) who jointly invented the peristatic pump - without which heart surgery would be almost impossible, Varian Australia who invented the metal lamp - without which modern chemical analysis would not be possible, the CSIRO who invented WI-FI. All of which are aussie inventions!

The pioneers are the ones that tried it first, I'm just an assie bloke, which like the examples I gave, didnt believe that anything is not possible - time will tell if it works - WHICH IT BLOODY WELL WILL!

Now back to work....


----------



## OzMick

Bandito said:


> I did know that the kettle shouldnt have a lid on it, but I was wondering why ecactly - what does DMS stand for exactly?



Dimethyl sulphide. It smells like cooked vegetables, creamed corn etc. Created by thermal decomposition of s-methyl methionine present in malt and driven off during boil, and condensate will cause it to drip back in, but sounds like you've got it sorted.

This is just one reason why hot stands after boiling are to be avoided, as can still be forming but not being evaporated. More heavily kilned (darker) malts also have lower levels due to heats exposed to. Sometimes considered OK in lagers, and not cared about by no-chillers.


----------



## andytork

I would be interested to know what you are doing to measure your volumes

Are you doing flow measurement or level measurement in the vessel(s) if so what method (float, ultrasonic, pressure, laser, capacitive ?)

I am currently investigating "all of the above" for my new brew controller. There are some non-invasive ultrasonics around now that just bolt to the outside of the pot (sort of work like capacitive but without the metalic restriction)

Andy


----------



## Bandito

Not sure. Level measurement definetly. I've go a float valve in the HLT and HERMS, but as for the others... capacitive sound interesting (I do like capacitors and have made my own, also own a capacitance meter & CRO) but would be hard to implement. Ultrasonic could be the go if it were mounted so it pointed down into the vessel and get a distance reading - whats the ones your talking about going through metal? never heard of those! Oh, I suppose its like tapping a half full water tank or gas bottle - damn, that could work!

Pressure would be a spring compressing a squishy tube and measureing the deflection, but that would be very sensitive and niggly.

Laser is prone to vapours I think, I did some research a few years back on this stuff, it starting to come back. I did find an interesting.... was it microwave or ultrasound??? Ultrasound me thinks - but like I described.

I like yours better, like tapping the outside of a tank! Yea, I;ll go for that, thanks heaps! Got a link?

For the tubes, like to check there is fluid in them, I was thinking a light source passing through a clear tube, with a light sensor detecting th light level. I made one years back that a mate designed - It was a light transistor (cant remenber the actual name of it - it was sold by dick smith and cant find it anymore) a light depecdant resister connected to a super alpha transistor pair all in a tiny package, this was connected to a couple more transistors on a small circuit board and biased by a variable resistor which turned on or off a relay depending on the light level. I used it to time the time it took ping pong balls and ball bearings to fall a certain distance, and thus measure velocity of spheres in fluids to measure viscosity of those fluids for a school project (falling shpere viscometer) the relay output of two circuits were simply connected to a stop watch (which I manually reset with the reset button inbetween trials). (thus illistrating that with a little bit of circuitry, a simple on/off can be produced) Could be used here to detect the presence of fluid in a tube.

Or mabee a capacitance or inductance measurement, by running two parallel wires along a section of tube for capacitive, or winding some wire around a tube for inductive. Capacitive would detect the presence of fluid in the tube at the picofarad scale. And, just thinking here, but mabee inductance might detect flowing fluid? It might need a magnet near it - saw something like this in a physics book once - still got it, will have a look sometime soon.


----------



## andytork

Bandito said:


> down into the vessel and get a distance reading - whats the ones your talking about going through metal? never heard of those! Oh, I



http://www.simcotech.com/turcklevelprox.htm

Looks expensive!

if you do go ultrasonic I would recommend the waterproof ones (of course)

Futurelec do them at $4.90 US a pair, the rest of the gear should come in under $10 (handful of resistors, caps, transistors, a comparator of some type and a pic or avr micro to make sense of it all)

http://www.futurlec.com/Ultrasonic_Sensors.shtml

The speed of sound travelling through the air varies with temperature but is more or less constant at about 340 metres a second, I have never tried ultrasonics with liquids close to boiling, but may be doing soon

Andy


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Andy,

Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:

one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!

Should be close to water I suppose?


----------



## andytork

Just calibrate it to 1030 wort


----------



## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> Thanks Andy,
> 
> Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:
> 
> one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!
> 
> Should be close to water I suppose?




pretty sure you can measure the diastatic constant, I vaguely remember doing it at Uni  

Paul


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> I did know that the kettle shouldnt have a lid on it, but I was wondering why ecactly - what does DMS stand for exactly?



You need to either study or stop putting your foot in your mouth.

Just because you are a process designer does not qualify you to design a fully automated brewing system. You need to have some idea of the processes involved in brewing.

I am sure at work you have some kind of guide to let you know what the requirements are for any project you work on. This project sounds like you are flying by the seat of your pants. That may be saying to much as that requires skill and knowledge.

You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine.

I am not saying it can not be done but you need to get educated on the process and all the dirty parts. Unless you do this you are going to end up with an encrusted pile of stuff not even worth much as scrap because of all the cleaning needed to scrap it.

One more potential trouble to detect. Boilover! That alone will ruin the brew bot in 30 seconds.

Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why. It will make a nice conversation piece but I do not see a market for such an expensive system. This entire project reminds me of some films with the inventor that designs and automatic egg fryer. It starts with the chicken and always ends up in a mess. All because he can never see past the idea of the invention. So I return to my suggestion that you look past the idea and learn about the process and all that can go wrong. Then you can take your knowledge of process control and come up with something that may work.


----------



## BottleBitch

Bandito said:


> Thanks Andy,
> 
> Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:
> 
> one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!
> 
> Should be close to water I suppose?




Bandito,

Dont know it off the top of my head but I have it in a book at work, its not the same as water as wort contains sugars that make it much more dense, will have a look for you tonight when I'm at work.

Cheers 

Brett


----------



## Phoney

Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer. 

So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...

Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!


----------



## andytork

Pretty sure it would become self-aware, then it would be two against one


----------



## alowen474

phoneyhuh said:


> Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.
> 
> So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...
> 
> Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!


i think that's called mcdonalds


----------



## komodo

^ how shit is your wifes cooking if you comparing it to McDonalds?


----------



## bigholty

Or you could leave the cooking and cleaning to the wife, and build a robot to take care of the "far more enjoyable activities"....................


----------



## Phoney

bigh said:


> Or you could leave the cooking and cleaning to the wife, and build a robot to take care of the "far more enjoyable activities"....................



You mean like Roxxy? :lol: 

http://money.ca.msn.com/savings-debt/insig...mentid=23230369


----------



## newguy

phoneyhuh said:


> Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.
> 
> So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...
> 
> Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!



They have that on star trek. I think it's called a replicator. For the food, not the other activities. For the other activities, I think you're thinking of one of these:


----------



## Bandito

katzke said:


> You need to either study or stop putting your foot in your mouth.
> 
> Just because you are a process designer does not qualify you to design a fully automated brewing system. You need to have some idea of the processes involved in brewing.
> 
> I am sure at work you have some kind of guide to let you know what the requirements are for any project you work on. This project sounds like you are flying by the seat of your pants. That may be saying to much as that requires skill and knowledge.
> 
> You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine.
> 
> I am not saying it can not be done but you need to get educated on the process and all the dirty parts. Unless you do this you are going to end up with an encrusted pile of stuff not even worth much as scrap because of all the cleaning needed to scrap it.
> 
> One more potential trouble to detect. Boilover! That alone will ruin the 'brew bot' in 30 seconds.
> 
> Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why. It will make a nice conversation piece but I do not see a market for such an expensive system. This entire project reminds me of some films with the inventor that designs and automatic egg fryer. It starts with the chicken and always ends up in a mess. All because he can never see past the idea of the invention. So I return to my suggestion that you look past the idea and learn about the process and all that can go wrong. Then you can take your knowledge of process control and come up with something that may work.



This is a good post actually, the comments that follow are intended to be read as calm and happy - 
Hey, I am not afraid of asking a stupid question - if I didnt know the answer, then I will ask - nothing wrong with that. At the various places I have worked over the years, there have been terms flying around all over the place, if I didnt know what they meant I would ask - there werent many times that anybody knew, they were just pretending to know. Quite a few people did look like quite the fool because they were pretending to know - I dont do that. We really do need a glossary wiki on this forumn.

Oh, I am not a process designer, I am a structural steel detailer at the moment, I have been a structural designer - Lead structural steel designer actually. I have drafted / design ie. layed out the mechanical equipment for a couple of sand mining process plants
that are more complex than this. I was also the only navisworks checker at the samd mining place, and would fly around the massive mineral sand processing plants checking for anything that was wrong - no formal qualifications though, so I could not get a job to do this sort of thing professionally, but this is a hobby, not a job, so I wasnt aware that I needed any formal qualifications to do this .

Quote: "You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine."

Boilovers will be dealt with by using a much larger kettle than required, and the whole machine will be mounted above a sink type thing (cant think of the name of it atm
It is no where as complex as the buildings that I draft on a day to day basis - some of them have had upwards of 100,000 bolts holding everything together - while is it a bit complex, it not all that hard! I suppose I would rate it just under the adelaide oval southern stand that I detailed.

Hmmm, bread machine hey? I have been looking for something like it, could it work? I have seen to many inventor stories where a budding inventor spends 20 years inventing something only to find out it has no commercial value and as such jsut wasted all that time - if a bread machine or similar can do it, then Ill use it.

Quote: "Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why."
Was wondering when someone was going to ask this question. The answer is: because there isnt enough hours in the day and not enough days in the week. I love my automatic washing machine, dishwasher and robotic vacuum cleaner - couldnt live without them - well, I only just found the powersupply for the robotic vaccum cleaner last weekend, and so like a fool I have been sweeping my floors with a broom, well, a massive broom to reduce the tme it takes, but still like a fool.

Lastly, today I asked my boss if he knew of a valve that was like my 'geared motor crushed valve design'.He said it was called a knife gate, then when I explained the purpose he said I needed a needle valve. Then he said I should just send the design to the process engineering company we work with - not sure if it would cost anything, and I would like to get the pfd and p&id worked out first, but I am thinking I will send it to them for initial review and then again for final checking, although my boss will also be of great help.

I did make this thread so that all youz could help me. I know and fully admit that I cant do it all on my own - yes I need your help, I dont have enough experience to do this myself. What I do bring to the table is the design process - its the same design process that is used to design every process plant on the planet. The only reason why this project would fail is if the proper design process was not used. 

Furthermore, I do think that I have been a bit harsh on some just because I have read their replys as negatively based, I do apploigise for that, but the only other reason why this project will not go to completion is that I loose motivation to continue to spend every spare minute working on it (as wall as working full time plus overtime).



Herbstoffe said:


> Bandito,
> 
> Dont know it off the top of my head but I have it in a book at work, its not the same as water as wort contains sugars that make it much more dense, will have a look for you tonight when I'm at work.
> 
> Cheers
> Brett



Sweet! Use of books are acceptable.



phoneyhuh said:


> Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.
> 
> So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...
> 
> Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!



Was just thinking of this yeaterday! Why today, I had to come home early to defrost a leg of lamb! Might be the next project.



andytork said:


> Pretty sure it would become self-aware, then it would be two against one



Yea, that is a major concern with my system too. It will be controlled by an overclocked, very fast pc. If it were to become self aware and learn at a geometric rate, there is not telling what it may brew!


I would also like to reiterate my first reply in this thread where I said that this will be completely open source - as in, everything will be made available. At the end, one should be able to take the design and detail fabrication drawings for a specific section or the whole lot to a fabricator and have then make it. Software settings and program alogarythms will also be provided openly.

Now, back to building the grain hopper prototype.....


----------



## Goofinder

Not sure if this has been asked before, but is there any reason why you're trying to do the whole lot in one go?

Maybe I've been brainwashed by years of Systems Engineering, but I can't help but think that it would be easier to break this down into smaller chunks and get them working first. Of course you need the overall view of the system to know how it all fits together, but once you've got that you should be looking at how you can partition it into smaller subsystems with defined interfaces so that you can build it up in parts.

The actual brewing part is reasonably complicated without adding in everything to get all the right inputs into the right place at the right time. If you could define the interfaces better, then you could build a subsystem that creates wort from grain, water, hops and yeast and get that working. Then build the fermentation subsystem. And then build the rest of the ingredient delivery subsystem to fully automate the process.

Looking at your diagram, at first glance I think the fermentation fridge is too tightly coupled into the rest of the system to partition it up straight away. I would be looking at ways to simplify the interface there and also trying to bring all the 'inputs' over to one side so you can clearly see what needs to go into the 'brewing' subsystem.


----------



## Bandito

Goofinder said:


> Not sure if this has been asked before, but is there any reason why you're trying to do the whole lot in one go?



It has been said before but not asked. So I will actually answer it - The controlling program, Labview, will allow it to be split up. I dont see any advantage to dealing with one little part - I may as well dive in head first and get it all done in one foul swoop. I dont think it will be any more complex this way - in fact I expect it to be less complex doing one big thing taking 2 months, as opposed to 10 small things taking 3 weeks each.
Thats my view anyway, so that how I am going to do it.

Nicely put question.

Oh, and dont get me wrong, it will be split up, but that will happen in the programing stage, not in the design stage.


----------



## Jono_w

Bandito said:


> I dont think it will be any more complex this way - in fact I expect it to be less complex doing one big thing taking 2 months, as opposed to 10 small things taking 3 weeks each.



Is that the build time ? 2 months?


----------



## bigfridge

katzke said:


> You need to either study or stop putting your foot in your mouth.
> 
> Just because you are a process designer does not qualify you to design a fully automated brewing system. You need to have some idea of the processes involved in brewing.
> 
> I am sure at work you have some kind of guide to let you know what the requirements are for any project you work on. This project sounds like you are flying by the seat of your pants. That may be saying to much as that requires skill and knowledge.
> 
> You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine.
> 
> I am not saying it can not be done but you need to get educated on the process and all the dirty parts. Unless you do this you are going to end up with an encrusted pile of stuff not even worth much as scrap because of all the cleaning needed to scrap it.
> 
> One more potential trouble to detect. Boilover! That alone will ruin the brew bot in 30 seconds.
> 
> Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why. It will make a nice conversation piece but I do not see a market for such an expensive system. This entire project reminds me of some films with the inventor that designs and automatic egg fryer. It starts with the chicken and always ends up in a mess. All because he can never see past the idea of the invention. So I return to my suggestion that you look past the idea and learn about the process and all that can go wrong. Then you can take your knowledge of process control and come up with something that may work.




Well said !

I too support people 'having a go' - but I just hate to see someone wasting their money on an unworkable - and possibly dangerous piece of equipment.

I think that it is the overwhelming view of people here that you should get some brewing experience and then try to automate your process. 

I asked if you actually indended to build it as I beleive that your design is and will be unworkable. Basic brewing terms like DMS, Boilovers need to be understood first. BTW, you can't prevent boilovers by increasing the headspace of the boiler - you have to reduc ethe energy imput or drop the wort to below the boiling point. Once you have a full coverage of foam the surface tension of the wort causes the bubbles to remain and they rise up like honeycomb. This is why commercial breweries have detectors to sence the rising wort level and cut the energy input.

Once you know how to brew then you need to get some industrial/brewery design experience. Then you will know that the 'stick' that I was referring to was a sticking valve and 'mix proof piping' is a failsafe design principle that makes it impossible for the wrong thing to happen. This can be an automated system where a single valve stem operates two valves at the same time or manual where the head brewer keeps a piece of connecting pipe in his office that is only issued when it is time to do a cleaning run. Google up 'pipe fence' for a start.

Please consult any textbook on brewing (ie one not written by a home brewer) and you will find all the information that you seek.

Best of luck,
Over and out.


----------



## Bandito

Quote: you can't prevent boilovers by increasing the headspace of the boiler - you have to reduce the energy imput or drop the wort to below the boiling point."

Now thats the kind of reply I am after. Will implement in the P&ID phase.

By working together we can achieve a fully automated system that works. Thats my view anyway.

Its not me against the world, its us aginst the world! Surely, if we work together we can achieve a workable system.

YES WE CAN! - Bitch!


----------



## LethalCorpse

No, it's pretty clearly you against the world. Sorry, mate, but noone thinks it's going to work. No one's working with you on this quixotry. You've had a fairly wide range of highly knowledgeable people in this thread, including some pretty talented engineers and brewers. There's a difference between forging ahead to follow your dreams in spite of all the naysayers (or other equally ridiculous Disney movie tagline) and ignoring the sage advice of a whole lot of people who know the field far better than you do. 

A fully automated brewery _is_ possible. It's just not feasible. The people in this thread who have many years of experience as brewers, the folks who have studied for ten years to become electrical, mechanical, control system, chemical or other types of engineers, the guys who have BUILT real working breweries - none of them would attempt what you're so insistent upon attempting. That's because they know enough about the process to see where the pitfalls are, and how difficult they would be to overcome. And they've got the expertise to overcome most of them. You know how to make process flow diagrams, this is your only qualification for building this system, and you think you're going to do it where none of those other guys could? That's a pretty hefty serving of ignorance and arrogance right there.

In order to successfully do this, you're going to need to learn everything about how all-grain beer is made, an awful lot about process control, a fair bit of electrical and software engineering, a lot about food science and food/beverage manufacturing processes, a high level of plumbing skills, not a small amount of microbiology and a bunch of other fields. These are not things you learn on the fly. These are things which take four years of university education and another four years of industry experience to properly learn. I suggest you start with the brewing, because you're going to need an awful lot of beer to get through those other degrees. If you build a working brewery, you can then automate bits of it at a time - start with temperature control and work from there. Perhaps one day you'll have automated enough parts to call it an automated brewery. But if you think it's going to happen by poking at PFDs and asking questions like "do I need a kettle" you're certifiable.


----------



## Bandito

Wow, of everyone on this forumn I thought I would get more support from a fellow ocau member! Wow, thats pretty heart breeaking right there! Yep I'm lost for words.


----------



## LethalCorpse

Sorry dude, but you weren't listening to anyone - I had to be blunt. I'm all for big, expansive projects and pushing the boundaries of what you know you can do. But this one just isn't going to happen, at least not until you've learnt a whole lot more about brewing and process control. The best way to learn that is to start brewing - you can do that right now with a manual, gravity fed system.


----------



## Bandito

Still no words. Well, one, shattered.


----------



## newguy

Bandito,

Not sure if you're aware of these electronic liquid level sensors. Just ran across them today and they look pretty good.


----------



## OzMick

newguy said:


> Bandito,
> 
> Not sure if you're aware of these electronic liquid level sensors. Just ran across them today and they look pretty good.



Don't think they would be the best idea for use with beer, they're not rated for boiling liquids, and beer is reasonably acidic. Differential pressure is best for most volume measurements around a brewery (when you make an assumption of gravity), but might be overly expensive unless you're buying raw pressure sensor modules and doing a lot of circuit work yourself. As for a kettle, a conductivity sensor for overflow or high level might be best, not sure if the foam would trigger it but probably would. Conductivity sensors are easy and dirt cheap to even build an array of (darlington array ICs), in that way can get a crude volume measurement like a very primitive version of that sensor newguy linked to. 

Can copy the basic design from http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KG...mp;form=KEYWORD as the parts are probably only a few cents, mostly paying for the instructions and PCB.


----------



## technocat

Bandito said:


> Wow, of everyone on this forumn I thought I would get more support from a fellow ocau member! Wow, thats pretty heart breeaking right there! Yep I'm lost for words.



I guess LC has put into words what many of us have been thinking. Sorry you didn't see it coming.

BN


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> Quote: you can't prevent boilovers by increasing the headspace of the boiler - you have to reduce the energy imput or drop the wort to below the boiling point."
> 
> Now thats the kind of reply I am after. Will implement in the P&ID phase.
> 
> By working together we can achieve a fully automated system that works. Thats my view anyway.
> 
> Its not me against the world, its us aginst the world! Surely, if we work together we can achieve a workable system.



Mate, LC put it clearly that this is not something that is easy to do. You seem to think that this is a 'team effort' but your contribution is that you can draw it up - you need other team members to design it for you. That is a big ask when it is YOUR project for YOUR hobby. There doesn't seem to be much in it for the rest of the team.

Drawing steel buildings is a lot different to the industrial brewing process. While you may get the design finished it will not be workable or reliable. You are assuming that everything will work out 'in theory' but in practise there are sensors to fail, wires will burn out/fall, valves will gum up and refuse to move, grain dust WILL get into your fermenters or bottles/kegs and so on.

There is a fundemental safety issue in your design that you assume that the command that you program into Labview will happen. Any number of events can occur which will result in it not happening eg Labview has a bug where the command is not properly executed, the device or motor does not operate, the valve does not move to the desired position as something has fallen down to block it, a power failure results in the process re-starting at the wrong place in the program - the list is endless. Professional systems ensure that any failure renders the process 'safe', any action is measured to ensure that it has completed before it proceeds to the next step ie you need a sensor.

This is the experience that LC is talking about, the same experience that you argue "no it won't" against when issues are raised. 

It would think that you will be lucky to complete any single action (ie software design, procure and install plumbing etc) by your deadline - let alone the whole project.

But don't let any of the above stop you.


----------



## newguy

OzMick said:


> Don't think they would be the best idea for use with beer, they're not rated for boiling liquids, and beer is reasonably acidic.



I was thinking that it could be used to measure strike and sparge water volume. If you know how much water went into the batch, the volume of wort will always be less than that. But that's just my thinking. I know that with my system if I have x kg of grain and I use y litres of water I'll always end up with ~55l in the kettle. I think a flow sensor would be best but they're really expensive.



> As for a kettle, a conductivity sensor for overflow or high level might be best, not sure if the foam would trigger it but probably would. Conductivity sensors are easy and dirt cheap to even build an array of (darlington array ICs), in that way can get a crude volume measurement like a very primitive version of that sensor newguy linked to.



The problem with liquid level sensors on a kettle is that the hops, trub, and other crap in the kettle will foul them quickly.


----------



## Goofinder

Bandito said:


> It has been said before but not asked. So I will actually answer it - The controlling program, Labview, will allow it to be split up. I dont see any advantage to dealing with one little part - I may as well dive in head first and get it all done in one foul swoop. I dont think it will be any more complex this way - in fact I expect it to be less complex doing one big thing taking 2 months, as opposed to 10 small things taking 3 weeks each.
> Thats my view anyway, so that how I am going to do it.
> 
> Nicely put question.
> 
> Oh, and dont get me wrong, it will be split up, but that will happen in the programing stage, not in the design stage.


But... by your own admission you don't know all that much about the actual brewing process. 

Why don't you at least define clear interfaces for the brewing part so that when you learn some more about the process you can change that bit without needing to redesign the whole system. You could then simplify the brewing to just a simple infusion mash for now, work out the kinks in the rest of the process, then go full HERMS/RIMS later on. 

Anyway, just my thoughts. I think if you build it up in pieces you're less likely to end up with a system that doesn't work at all, and should at least get some stuff built that will be actually usable for brewing.


----------



## Bandito

JFK: "We will do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard!"

Sienfeld: "No body wants to build bridges, Its really really hard" - I just finnished detailing a bridge extension in padstow heights NSW, was hard, but not too hard.

Decided a few days ago to get a UPS for the pc - too many blackouts and brownouts here lately. That solves the power issue. 

I suppose the grain area will be enclosed mabee with a fan and filter, but with the fan after the filter to avoid grain dust explosions. motors in that area might also need covering up to avoid grain dust explosions in the confined space.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> JFK: "We will do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard!"
> 
> Sienfeld: "No body wants to build bridges, Its really really hard" - I just finnished detailing a bridge extension in padstow heights NSW, was hard, but not too hard.




David Daye: If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.


----------



## LethalCorpse

JFK had 25 billion dollars (in the sixties) and a massive team of military and private aeronautics specialists. Bridges are built with millions of dollars, and large teams of civil engineers, structural engineers, project managers, concrete specialists, governmental liaisons, even metal detailers. And it's still really really hard. What you are seeking to do is much smaller than a commercial brewery, but not much less complex for it.


----------



## katzke

Just went back and read your original post.

You say you have been planning this for a few months but still have questions about the basic brewing process.

I understand your desire to do this and that you see objections as a challenge to overcome.

But it may be time to step back and evaluate the project to see what you have learned so far.

You are trying to do a lot of stuff with one machine. Culturing yeast, brewing, and fermenting are all totally different things. 

I can not comment very much on the yeast culturing, as I do not do it. I have looked at the subject and decided it is not for me and dry yeast is all I need now.

Brewing from the dirty part of milling the grain until you start the cooling process is something less problematic. Once you cool the wort then it introduces the challenge of cleanliness. The way most brewers brew, the dust and steam are not a problem because we strip everything down and hose it off, at least I do. 

Fermenting is a process all its own. It can be as simple as leave it alone for a few weeks to as complicated as yeast harvesting, dry hopping, and for the mad brewer a true secondary fermentation. Then there is the choice between lager and ale.

I think the idea of making one machine or having one control for the entire process is folly. You do have 3 different things going on. Will the program be able to keep track of multiple yeast cultures and run a brew session at the same time? What about monitoring your fermentatio and brewing at the same time?

As has been pointed out you have many challenges just in the brewing part. If you are going to have a true set it and forget it system how are you going to measure gravities for duplication of recipes?

You answered one question by saying you are going to get a UPS for the computer. How will you handle when the power does go out? The program going to run on even with no power to the system? Will it abort the brew and give you a message letting you know it stopped the process and ask if you want to continue? Lots to think about and no easy answer as it all depends on where in the process the power failed.

I think you are learning from the exercise but it may be time to step back and see where it is going. I would hate to have you compare your self to Edison and find a thousand ways to not build an automated home brew system.


----------



## randyrob

Hey Bandito,

Have you read thru any of the other threads on this site from people that have gone down the same path?

Here are a few that are a decent read:

Zizzle's BrewBot by Zizzle

Automating a Brewery by WortGames

How High Tech is your Brewery by SpillsMostOfIt

Brewing software for automation freaks by zwickel

I have pretty much done what everyone else is suggesting, started of with a "manual AG brewery" and got about 60 batches under my belt and slowly started automating bits and pieces of it until i'm at the stage now where i can set it and forget it but it took me an entire year of tinkering to get to that stage.

I haven't updated my site for a bit but have still been working hard in the background. i've just purchased PDMS and am in the process of modeling up a 3d version of Mark 2 of my Brewery.

Rob.


----------



## randyrob

Another option that would be worth considering is the Beckhoff DIN-rail I/O modules

LINKY

your looking about $5k worth of hw/sw but it should be sufficient enough to run your home brewery.


----------



## manticle

I think the idea is great as part of the enjoyment of building your own brewery is the building and innovation itself.

However I think the point made by several that you should research basic brewing processes is only going to help your design.

There is a guy who used to post here who was automating his brewery. Someone mentioned it a few posts back. I'll see if I can hunt up the thread and link it as it may give some pointers. Definitely familiarise yourself with basic processes though as it will only help you in the long run.


----------



## manticle

Couldn't find the link I was after (think the username was Jonathan) but in searching I came across these which might be useful (as well as users you could PM for advice):

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=Brewbot

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;hl=automated

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;hl=automated

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;hl=automated


----------



## Zizzle

OzMick said:


> Conductivity sensors are easy and dirt cheap to even build an array of (darlington array ICs), in that way can get a crude volume measurement like a very primitive version of that sensor newguy linked to.



Bingo. It's actually easier than you think. Just have your vessel at GND. Nearly all micro controllers have muxed ADCs. e.g. 8 analog inputs. You need pretty simple signal conditioning circuitry between the probe and the ADC input. And a pull up resistor.

From there software can do the rest. Experiment and see what ADC readings correspond liquid being present. Add some debounce and threshold code and you are done.

On the brewbot, I only use 3 level probes. They have been one of the most reliable parts. Here are the two in the HLT:







But it would be good to do some experiments with a graphite rod in the HLT for level measurement. Graphite being pretty inert and resistive, it should be possible to measure some resistance change due to water level.



But like others have pointed out, I'm not sure if Bandito is at this detail level yet. I wonder if some off-the-shelf gear may help him here.


Not sure if anyone linked it yet, but HERMAN was inspirational for me in some areas.
http://hermanmachine.spaces.live.com/


BTW I think RandyRob is really on the right path with his automation project. Elegant, simple design. Automation in stages.


----------



## komodo

Building bridges big ******* deal - been there done that bought the post card. I did Webb dock bridge.




Spencer Street Railway Station Redev. worked on that one too.




Fed Square - yep 




Perth Convention and Exhibition centre - yep again.




Adelaide law courts.





Just a few of the projects I\'ve worked on .
Just cause you\'ve worked as a drafty on projects doesnt mean you know anything about the actual design process and fabrication process of the entire project. Plus your working as part of massive design team who have started working on the project long before you as a drafty have even been concidered.

Personally I think you have NFI. I also think your young and have your head in the cloud as to the scale of this project . 2 months is absolutely ******* dreaming. You\'ve been given bloody good advise by people who\'ve been there done that and your ignoring them.


----------



## paulwolf350

For my 2c. I would like to say that i think it is possible to automate up to the end of the boil, but i dont see how you can automate the fermentation side. There is a lot of non science and "feel" for good and bad fermentation. Its not just a pitch, wait, pump scenario. 

and as an aside, I feel your pain. I did three AG batchs, and thought I can automate this, piece of piss, I work with this every day. Well mate I am nearly $2000 down the road and have not automated 1 valve yet. ( got the gear, just havent). I really want you to succeed, (i might get some great ideas, programming or drawings) but in 2 months and $3000, from your original post, I dont think it will happen. 

Best of luck, If I can help i will

Paul


----------



## paulwolf350

manticle said:


> Couldn't find the link I was after (think the username was Jonathan)



I would like to see that one again too, it was smokin!

Paul


----------



## Jono_w

paulwolf350 said:


> I would like to see that one again too, it was smokin!
> 
> Paul



Here it is Paul..

LINK


Cheers..


----------



## thunderchild

A wise pilot once said that evne though he flew fully automated Jumbo's for a living he loved flying a Cessna - Said it was real flying...


----------



## Bandito

Thanks for all the links guys, that great!

Not sure where this 2 month time frame came from? think someone misread something, the op states that 7 months and about $3000. Got to do a schedule soon to work out milestones.

Komodo, you worked on some nice stuff, you obviously arent scared by extremely complex projects. Its a requirement in our high end architectural sector. So many job applicants get scared off when they see how complex the stuff is - they just want a nice little square house or portal shed to detail. The point is that these sort of things, going to the moon, bridges, architectural nightmare buildings arent done by people that are scared by any amount of complexity - so although it sounds like I am not listening, I really dont see it as any where near the complexity of any of your buildings or quite a few of mine - if that sort of complexity scares people so be it, but I am used to it, so I will just get on with the job.

I saw that pilot thing on discovery channel too


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## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> Not sure where this 2 month time frame came from?



Sorry mate, wires crossed, 7 months it is. 
Flow diagrams were 2 months

Good luck

Paul


----------



## Goofinder

This isn't a complex project, it just has a few rather tricky technical challenges to overcome. 

The actual process of brewing beer is fairly simple once you get down to it. The problem is that even without completely automating the process, there's just not that much intervention required. The cost/benefit isn't there to automate this sort of thing, especially with all the issues mentioned earlier in the thread.

You should be able to have a decent crack at it and reduce the human intervention a fair bit for $3k and 7 months, but I will be surprised (and rather impressed) if you have something that can go from recipe to beer with that sort of budget.


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## Bandito

True. It is not intended to be cost effective, just time effective. I work monday to friday, and really do need to work on saturday, which I did today and got home about 930pm. I would like to work tomorrow to get some urgent stuff done, so for another week I have no time to do an ag brew and will be lucky to get the cleaning and washing done. Thus a fully automated system is my goal as I will be able to work more instead of taking time off work on the weekend just to do a mash. I suppose that is also cost effective to cos I am making money while at work, so should payback within 6 months.


----------



## Bandito

Goofinder said:


> This isn't a complex project, it just has a few rather tricky technical challenges to overcome.



The only one that is still stumping me is emptying the spent grain from the mash / lauter tun. Quite a few have suggested installing a large ball valve, but I am not convinced that would work - has anyone actually done this successfully themselves? There are thousands of grains, probably a hundred thousand particals in a decent sized mash, just not convinced that they would all get flushed out. Others have suggested I accept that some manual labour will be required. Putting the two together would suggest multiple MLT's that I empty out manually could be the go.

This is just part of my thought process, and am sure I will find a way, but the best case senario is that I will have to emply at least one bin. if I do decent sized batches the only difference will be that I will be emptying out one MLT as opposed to one bin - so there is really no difference there apart from the plumbing and electrical connetions. Even then, I could just tip the MTL over (providing flexible tubing and wires and rince it out with a hose connected to the washing machine tap. But how is that easier than automating a big ass geared motor to do the same thing? The big ass geared motor I am thinking of is cat no. YG-2738, has 50kg/cm torque and $35.95 with my trade discount ($45 without individually and I suppose from other posts. a lot cheaper on ebay). I have a lot of trouble trying to stop the 2.1 kg/cm tourque model with my hand around the shaft, and they turn 1/4 inch John Guest valves very well.) So as long as the MLT is mounted at the approximate centre of gravity it should be able to rotate a MLT. The tubes and wires could be looped such that the rotation of the MLT simply unwinds the loop rather than twisting them. And a dedicated garden hose style sprinkler or trigger nossle can be permanently mounted to the MLT to direct it inward, or if a hinged lid is attached to the MLT, the sprayer could be fixed and the large motorised valve can be turned on when the MLT is in the rotated position.

Hmmm, one issue here - The motor will have to be mounted above the centre of gravity when the MLT is full, so above half way up. After sparging, the centre of gravity will be much lower and so much more force will be required. I have done COG addition calculations for certain structures I have designed (7 portable 45 tonne mineral sand processing plants that are towed across the ground when the minerals run out in an area - just wanted to make sure they wouldnt fall over), but torque physics is not my strong point, will have to get out the 1600 page physics bible and learn it. I suppose I can just try it, if it isnt powerful enough find a more powerful one - the hard part is the connection between the motor and the MLT. The other option is to cut a chopping board or metal plate into the shape of a wedge or a piece of pie, where the sharp end of the pie shaped wedge will be fixed securely to the MLT, and grouves cut into the outside curve. In this way the geared motor could have a gear on it or a worm drive to increase the tourque - doubt it would be needed though.

Well if thats the hardest issue I have seen so far, what are these things that "cant be automated"? Seriously, I would like to know!


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## Bandito

Here is a link to a couple of my projects, most of the others are still under confidentiality and non disclosure agreements, and so not posted on the web and thus cannot disclose them. There isnt much detail in the links for the same reason - intelectual property rights are guarded with utmost secrecy.

http://rjrobbins.com.au/index.php?MMID=1436&SMID=1607
http://rjrobbins.com.au/index.php?MMID=1436&SMID=1494

And a very simple circuit diagram much like the Process flow diagram that I am doing at the moment.
http://rjrobbins.com.au/FolioFiles/243/138..._Diagrams01.pdf

No where as impressive as Komodos' but I dont think anyone can post stuff even close to kmodos's work, I have been doing mining process plants for most of my 8.5 years in the field. Should be a job here for you komodos if you pm me today (sunday)My Boss is doing final interviews atm.

And before you say 'those buildings are easy' let me add that they are full of mechanical equipment, pipes, conveyors, acid reactors and heaps more. but thats not to say they were really really hard either, just incredibly complex.


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## Zwickel

Bandito, I feel a little bit sorry for you and hope you wont lose your enthusiasm.

No one is doubting about your skills, we all are just missing a consistent concept of a functioning base.

You are putting the automation in the foreground, neglecting a functional base where the automation should be taking control of. (apologies for my english) 

As so many experienced home brewing technical freaks here have already said, go ahead and project the brewery first, at first without any automation and then, after a couple of brews, start building intrefaces. Im sure, that will lead you to success.

When I started planning to automatize my little brewery, first I did a conception:

http://www.elcom-mayer.de/beer/Brewing_Concept.pdf

Later on, when I was sure the conception will work, I started to automatize part by part.

That will not only save you a lot of wasted time, that also will help you to safe a pretty amount of money.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bandito

Hmm. thats a lot simpler than mine at the moment! It is quite ingeneous, never considered using the fermenter as an intermediate storage for the kettle - nice. Thanks.

Yea, well, the whole 'perfect the brewing first concept' isnt really an option for me. I only have 3 AG brews under my belt, and I hope that that will be enough because work is so busy right now and thankfully will continue to be for quite some time. If I was to do another AG in the next few months it may well be at the expense of cleaning and cooking or work. Now If I was to do a brew instead of working I should probably join Brewers anonymous, as it is by working that I can pay the bills, and it is the overtime that will pay for this project - even to the extent of sending it to professional brew process engineers. The boss could probably call in a favour and get it done for free or close to it, but well, it is an option I am considering anyway.


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## Bandito

In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of. Hell, not many people in the industry can read them or know the purpose of them. I wish I could wave a magic wand and produce a pretty picture that everyone can understand, but that is not the process I am following nor the intent of the project. One of the intents of the project is to expose the everyday person to the process that I am following, and mabee show how a seemingly complex process can be seen as a relatively simple one - now if I fail to produce a workable system then this process and I will be seen as a folly, but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!

Is that too blunt? Hmmm, I have been called a lot worse in this thread, if you cant take it then dont give it!

From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls! And my signature will say 'Such and such licked my balls' etc.! After I succeed that is, and only posts from now on. Thats fair enough.


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## kirem

Interestingly I removed the mill from my nanobrewery yesterday. It used to feed milled malt straight into the MLT. The grain dust is a huge micro problem and I would rather forgo this automated section of the process to reduce the risk of micro issues.

It was setup for autostart (early hours of the morning whilst I slept) and autostepped its way through to mashout, ready for me to sparge when I awoke. 

I have built my brewery to be as autonomous as possible from milled grain to cooled wort. The process following boiling of the wort requires too much attention to detail to automate for me. There are huge micro issues to avoid and reduce.

The enjoyment for me is using some technicial knowledge to automate the process, control and repeatability coupled with recipe design and tweaking

I started a rebuild yesterday to incorporate a lot more autonomy, like autosparge, autochill, volume measurement and control and to simplify the layout.

My system is based on the HERMS concept and my process allowed me to remove the HLT and just use a heatexchanger to provide all my heat requirements.

My suggestion to you is that you build a frame and start incorporating some of your ideas as a work in progress, some will work, some won't, but build it so it can be easily modified. Each brewday you will come up with new ideas on how to solve some of the processes that require your attendance or take time with automation. This is how I did it.

You can gather AG experience and work on process design and control along the way. Your lack of AG brewing will be a very limiting factor in your design process, so kill two birds with one stone. 

My nanobrewery is designed to work in with how I brew and will probably not suit everyone and yours will probably end up the same.

Good luck.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of.



that's a little arrogant mate, sorry to disapoint but it's not that complex, I would say that anyone here that has a basic understanding of brewing (not only AG) would find it relatively easy to read.

like others have said, i suggest you build a basic working brewery, *brew some beer* and go from there.


----------



## bradsbrew

Bandito said:


> In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of. Hell, not many people in the industry can read them or know the purpose of them. I wish I could wave a magic wand and produce a pretty picture that everyone can understand, but that is not the process I am following nor the intent of the project. One of the intents of the project is to expose the everyday person to the process that I am following, and mabee show how a seemingly complex process can be seen as a relatively simple one - now if I fail to produce a workable system then this process and I will be seen as a folly, but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!
> 
> Is that too blunt? Hmmm, I have been called a lot worse in this thread, if you cant take it then dont give it!
> 
> From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls! And my signature will say 'Such and such licked my balls' etc.! After I succeed that is, and only posts from now on. Thats fair enough.



WTF !! Dude, I have not read this entire thred I did read your original post when you started this and I wasnt really interested in a fully automated 5L system. I personaly have a simple set up that I am constantly upgrading and I put out some nice beers and some shockers but that is due to brewing experimentation and procedures not the rig.
Taking the whole lick my balls line is pretty fooked up. How about you build your rig and brew a consistant brew then post it to this thread.

brad


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## pokolbinguy

This is an interesting idea but I find it strange that Bandito says he doesn't have time to brew beer to learn more however has the time to deisgn/build/post on AHB about his automated brewery...this is bizarre indeed.

Maybe less time in front of the computer for awhile and go and make some beer. I have to completely agree that doing this will make life much easier..you need to know what can go wrong, and you wont know this in 3 brews.

Don't take this as a 'i think your an idiot' post....I just think your an idiot not going and making some beer.

Anyway I will be following this for sure.

Good luck.

Pok


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## katzke

Bandito said:


> I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of.



Looked at your last plan on a different computer and finally all the lines showed up.

The fermentation part has a problem with the plumbing. Will not tell you just say use a hi-liter and follow the path of the wort. It can end up someplace other then a fermentor. It is also mostly unneeded. Fermenting is easy as there is no work involved just lots of waiting.

Kettle has a problem. You need to clean more then just the mash tun after each brew.

Do not know of any no-rinse powder sanitizers.

For the time and effort you are short some fluff. No way to mash hop.

The HLT and the HERMS/RIMS seem redundant.

Like everyone says go back to basics and learn more about brewing. If you do not have time to brew then read. Look at the zillions of other systems out there and put a system together that works for what you need. Then wire it up to a computer.

A fix for grain dust. Wet milling.

A fix for getting grain out of the mash tun. Suction.

Not going to design it for you even though you have basically asked us to.

Make it bigger. No need to have it only brew a six-pack. It will take the same amount of time to brew a 5-liter batch and just as long to ferment it as it will 10, 15, or 20 liters. May as well brew a respectable amount of beer for the time, recourses, and cost. I know you have lots of money because you are working. So save the planet and brew enough to make up for the environmental impact of your creation and the water it will use to clean itself. Also if you brew a larger batch you can solve some of the problems of clearing the mash tun. Simplify the grain and hop additions and also the yeast pitching. You can still brew every day of the month if you need that big of a selection of beer styles. You will need a walk in fermentation room to store all that beer for the weeks it will take to ferment and age.

I know they have coffee makers that will wake you up with a cup of coffee. I did not know they cleaned them selves and selected the beans for the next batch. Do not know of any clothes washers that will do multiple loads. I do know of a combo washer and dryer. You still need to load and unload it.

Take a look and see if you really need a system that will brew several different brews in a day. If you brew only one batch you can load all the grain in one hopper and still let it mill for you. You can look at the hop additions and make sure they will be adequate for any style you like. Heck you could even do a continuous addition like a few breweries are for there killer IPAs. If you do this then you can manually remove the grain and still push a button for the clean cycle. You also can mash hop with a single brew system.

A quick story. I had our dishwasher repaired under a recall. Some problem with wires and water that was causing them to burn houses down. The repairman told me the only appliance that should run when no one is home is a fridge and freezer. He said anyone that runs any other appliance when they are not home is wanting disaster. How happy will your neighbors be if you flood the place or bun it down just for beer?


----------



## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of. Hell, not many people in the industry can read them or know the purpose of them. I wish I could wave a magic wand and produce a pretty picture that everyone can understand, but that is not the process I am following nor the intent of the project. One of the intents of the project is to expose the everyday person to the process that I am following, and mabee show how a seemingly complex process can be seen as a relatively simple one - now if I fail to produce a workable system then this process and I will be seen as a folly, but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!
> 
> Is that too blunt? Hmmm, I have been called a lot worse in this thread, if you cant take it then dont give it!
> 
> From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls! And my signature will say 'Such and such licked my balls' etc.! After I succeed that is, and only posts from now on. Thats fair enough.



Way to go mate, insult all the people trying to help you

If you can get this to work, i will gladly lick your balls

I think up until this post most have been pretty accomodating to your ideas, but as far as I am concerned you are now on your own mate, good luck


----------



## bradsbrew

paulwolf350 said:


> Way to go mate, insult all the people trying to help you
> 
> If you can get this to work, i will gladly lick your balls
> 
> I think up until this post most have been pretty accomodating to your ideas, but as far as I am concerned you are now on your own mate, good luck



Geez Paul, the only balls I would *gladly* lick would be my own :lol:


----------



## paulwolf350

bradsbrew said:


> Geez Paul, the only balls I would *gladly* lick would be my own :lol:



Yeah big call I know, but I will wait till I have tasted some automatic beers first, I have been called out before by all manner of para-professionals, I havnt been caught out yet. 

Paul


----------



## benno1973

Bandito said:


> From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls!



Graham Saunders - is that you?!  

Bandito, I don't doubt that you can design this and possibly even build it, but I don't think it would make good beer. Without an understanding of the brewing process, and all the things that can (and will) go wrong along the way, how can you design something to handle all these situations? I'm an applications developer and I'd never try to write an application without having a complete understanding of the business requirements that the application had to reflect. I'm up to 40 or 50 AG brews so far and I feel I'm still learning.

Perhaps you'd be better automating a can opener and a sugar dispenser? - it would still give you the beer you were after without half the headaches.

As far as your design is concerned - as someone said earlier, you'd need to clean the kettle after each brew as well. After a good boil I have to get a scourer out and use a fair bit of elbow grease to get the hop debris off the kettle. How do you plan on doing this? Steam and pressure?

I'd also echo sentiments of upsizing - 5L batches mean that if you're using high AA hops, you'd need to be extremely accurate in your measurements.

Anyway, despite all this, I appreciate your passion and wish you the best of luck with your project.


----------



## paulwolf350

katzke said:


> Fermenting is easy as there is no work involved just lots of waiting.



I dont agree, not even the big micro breweries can automate the fermentation completely, there is still some maualisation, it may only be pressing buttons and checking gravity but it is still manual, it doesnt automatically ferment and then move onto the bottling line

Paul


----------



## RdeVjun

paulwolf350 said:


> I dont agree, not even the big micro breweries can automate the fermentation completely, there is still some maualisation, it may only be pressing buttons and checking gravity but it is still manual, it doesnt automatically ferment and then move onto the bottling line
> 
> Paul


I'll second that Paul, sensing that fermentation is complete presents tremendous difficulties, so would any SG measurements for assessing mash performance or targets. A densimeter like the big boys use could be incorporated fairly simply, but the cost would blow most HBers away (hope you're all seated- maybe $10K... :blink: ), otherwise we'd all have one.


----------



## yardy

bradsbrew said:


> Geez Paul, the only balls I would *gladly* lick would be my own :lol:




if you get a rib removed it's possible, apparently.....


----------



## The Mexican

yardy said:


> if you get a rib removed it's possible, apparently.....




we had one of these turn up at a brewers meeting in Melbourne years ago, and it wasn't until he told us that "they are watching him from inside the TV, & he had to stay out of their line of vision, & also, that no one would talk to him." That was when we payed a bit more attention to him. Maybe our friend on this thread has no one to talk to either.


----------



## katzke

RdeVjun said:


> I'll second that Paul, sensing that fermentation is complete presents tremendous difficulties, so would any SG measurements for assessing mash performance or targets. A densimeter like the big boys use could be incorporated fairly simply, but the cost would blow most HBers away (hope you're all seated- maybe $10K... :blink: ), otherwise we'd all have one.



I will include paulwolf350 in this reply.

My typed word was miss typed or misinterpreted. I will take the blame as both of you came to the same conclusion.

I never meant to say that the fermentation process is easy to automate.

I meant to say the process is so easy that there is no reason to automate it. I say this because you put yeast in the proper temp wort and let it set for a few weeks. Not hard to do as he has a fermentation fridge already or at least that is the way I remember it. You check the temp of the wort and pitch the yeast. Leave it for a week or so and check gravity. I personally leave it for 2 to 3 weeks or longer and only check it when I am ready to bottle or keg. The exception is if I am gong to do a dry hop. I have only brewed ales so do not have anything to say about lagering or aging brews like barley wines or aging on wood chips or liquor soaked chips.

If you are going to harvest yeast from a conical fermentor then it takes a bit more monitoring. Something I hope too never have to deal with. I am a dry yeast user at this time and live only about a hundred miles from the big Wyeast people. You do remember what miles are?

If the brewing process was good and the yeast was healthy then the ferment should go off with no problems. Given that the temp is monitored, as I recall he is doing with a fridge.

So I say again fermentation is easy, or simple, and I will add there is no reason to try and complicate it with automation.


----------



## rwmingis

Bandito said:


> ...when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!



Jesus man, what are you like?

I appreciate what you are trying to do and am trying to give you input in areas where I have knowledge; but I don't think you appreciate what we are trying to do, help you, and alert you to some of the problems you WILL be running into. Now you're just taking the piss.

Unsubscribing...


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## JonnyAnchovy

Bandito said:


> but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!



This reminds me of that scene from deadwood... "those who doubt me suck cock by choice".


----------



## BottleBitch

View attachment DK_HANDBUCH_20__20SD106FEN_20__2006_00.pdf


Bandito said:


> Thanks Andy,
> 
> Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:
> 
> one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!
> 
> Should be close to water I suppose?



Ok I had a look at work and it only gives valves for sugar solutions, but here you go I have attached the two Endress+Hauser PDF files with all the info.

Have fun 


Brett


----------



## manticle

JonnyAnchovy said:


> deadwood...



OT: Best TV show ever written.


----------



## RdeVjun

katzke said:


> I will include paulwolf350 in this reply.
> 
> My typed word was miss typed or misinterpreted. I will take the blame as both of you came to the same conclusion.
> 
> I never meant to say that the fermentation process is easy to automate.
> 
> I meant to say the process is so easy that there is no reason to automate it. I say this because you put yeast in the proper temp wort and let it set for a few weeks. Not hard to do as he has a fermentation fridge already or at least that is the way I remember it. You check the temp of the wort and pitch the yeast. Leave it for a week or so and check gravity. I personally leave it for 2 to 3 weeks or longer and only check it when I am ready to bottle or keg. The exception is if I am gong to do a dry hop. I have only brewed ales so do not have anything to say about lagering or aging brews like barley wines or aging on wood chips or liquor soaked chips.
> 
> If you are going to harvest yeast from a conical fermentor then it takes a bit more monitoring. Something I hope too never have to deal with. I am a dry yeast user at this time and live only about a hundred miles from the big Wyeast people. You do remember what miles are?
> 
> If the brewing process was good and the yeast was healthy then the ferment should go off with no problems. Given that the temp is monitored, as I recall he is doing with a fridge.
> 
> So I say again fermentation is easy, or simple, and I will add there is no reason to try and complicate it with automation.


Yes, I'm sorry- I agree with you katzke that it is a very simple process, and I wouldn't be trying to automate it myself, or at least integrating it into this system. Didn't mean to offend if that's the case, its just that in the design he has done just that- automated it.

I'm not sure though that many brewers would start a batch fermenting without taking a specific gravity measurement (or subsample). The fermentation subsystem as it stands in the design is going to have to run with some fairly generous default duration values (no biggie) but will have no means to detect a stuck ferment or one that fails to start, nor as you point out add dry hops at the right point. But the fermentation sub- system could be kept fairly simple if these limitations are accepted.

However, one other aspect that I should've elaborated upon was the fact that a densimeter, or some other specific gravity- sensing device would be fairly important to the proposed system as it needs a means to monitor mash and boil performance. I'm not aware of any AGers who don't measure specific gravity at least once before pitching, I do it four times usually (first runnings, sparge, pre- boil and post- boil), and I haven't seen anywhere in the proposed design to do it even once. Also, any adjustments for unexpected mash performance or yields are going to be impossible to calculate, while the brewer will have no idea of OG, nor the chance to adjust it before fermentation without some kind of measurement. Try breaking all your hydrometers and refractometers and brewing a batch from go to whoa, I think most of us would struggle or just accept some random results.


----------



## katzke

RdeVjun said:


> Yes, I'm sorry- I agree with you katzke that it is a very simple process, and I wouldn't be trying to automate it myself, or at least integrating it into this system. Didn't mean to offend if that's the case, its just that in the design he has done just that- automated it.
> 
> However, one other aspect that I should've elaborated upon was the fact that a densimeter, or some other specific gravity- sensing device would be fairly important to the proposed system as it needs a means to monitor mash and boil performance. I'm not aware of any AGers who don't measure specific gravity at least once before pitching, I do it four times usually (first runnings, sparge, pre- boil and post- boil), and I haven't seen anywhere in the proposed design to do it even once. Also, any adjustments for unexpected mash performance or yields are going to be impossible to calculate, while the brewer will have no idea of OG, nor the chance to adjust it before fermentation without some kind of measurement. Try breaking all your hydrometers and refractometers and brewing a batch from go to whoa, I think most of us would struggle or just accept some random results.



No offence taken. Just wanted to make sure it was clear. Funny part about writing things and posting. Sometimes it is perfectly clear when one hits send and then it is hardly readable when one goes back to look.

Totally agree on the last part. Just have not seen a reason to bring it up. Way too many basic flaws to worry about the important stuff like that.


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## Bandito

True, I guess there is an inline electronic refractometer available somewhere. Sill prototyping the grain hopper, should finnish timorrow sometime, just about to put it all together, only two more parts to cut.


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## MHB

Yes there are, they cost about $4.5K
MHB
Link to OLD thread


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## Bandito

I will do some searches later on, but will be looking for one below $500 max. I have a mate doing a phd in optical engineering, he could help me with the automation (also the one showed me the labview program), mabee something that just deflects a laser beam - I do want it to be inline - a 1/2" to 1" barbed connection on each and either a digital or analogue output. The only chemical analysis instruments I have never used are a refractometer and electrophoresis - I missed the last one on purpose because the people that did turn up analysed urine! eeww! I didnt want to be qualified to do that!


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## andytork

Check out this site for all types of refractometer

This link is $250 USD, but site has heaps of different ones

https://www.nationalmicroscope.com/digital-...model-p-68.html

Perhaps disassemble and integrate


----------



## cooperplace

Bandito said:


> This may explain why the manifolds I have drafted reciently were yeast blending manifolds. It always puzzled me - are they just harvesting yeast from batches that have achieved final gravity, or are they constantly circulating the wort to achieve a wort with yeast suspended in it as opposed to having a yeast cake on the bottom for a lager or a trub on the top for an ale. Not sure but reading that link now. Clocked off designing the system for the night...




Bert Grant's book, The Ale Master, has a bit in it on a continuous fermentation plant that he designed. 

Your idea is great, fantastic. All of us will learn lessons from it. Ignore the naysayers and do it YOUR way.

Peter.


----------



## paulwolf350

I am also pretty sure you will find that a refractometer will not work on fermented beer, the alcohol screws up the refraction of the light, thats why Rdvjun mentioned the densimeter.

You can use an inline refratometer in your aplication up till the start of fermentation, from then on I use a hyrometer, but for your automated setup you might be able to devise or calculate in a correction factor. Or you might be able to manually take hydrometer readings if your automation doesnt extend past pitching

Sounds like you are making progress on the hopper


----------



## cooperplace

Bandito said:


> I used to use it on peristatic pumps on chemical analysis instruments when I was studying to be a chemical laboratory technician. Atomic adsorption spectrometers and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometers both use it. It is more hardy than neoprene. It does go opaque after months of pumping strong acids, but is clear and lasts longer than neoprene. Not sure if silicon is used in peristatic pumps? so not sure if it can handle repeated squashing?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi bandito, in a previous job decades ago I worked in a hospital chemistry lab doing blood chemistry tests. We used a machine made by Technicon, and it had hundreds of silicon peristaltic tubes going all the time. They would last about 100-250 hours of operation.
> 
> 
> Peter


----------



## Bandito

Well, all I know about refractometers is that they measure sugar content - sugar being like the most refractive solution around - learnt this from my time on orchards where some fruit is picked, juced and the sugar content tested with a refractometer to determine wether the fruit is ready to pick. From what I wave read on AHB over the past year, refractometers also give a density reading - is this correct?

Refractometer or densiometer? for testing before and after fermentation? I have been using a hydrometer only. I realise that temperature is screws the density readings, and I use hydrometer value adjustments based on the temperature of the sample, which I take with a thermocouple.

Thanks Coopersplace, it is encouraging to hear a positive comment. Gives me the motovation to go the extra mile


----------



## cooperplace

LethalCorpse said:


> JFK had 25 billion dollars (in the sixties) and a massive team of military and private aeronautics specialists. Bridges are built with millions of dollars, and large teams of civil engineers, structural engineers, project managers, concrete specialists, governmental liaisons, even metal detailers. And it's still really really hard. What you are seeking to do is much smaller than a commercial brewery, but not much less complex for it.




Hey LethalCorpse, I've built bridges, it's not that hard.


----------



## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> refractometers also give a density reading - is this correct?



Yes totally correct



Bandito said:


> Refractometer or densiometer? for testing before and after fermentation? I have been using a hydrometer only. I realise that temperature is screws the density readings, and I use hydrometer value adjustments based on the temperature of the sample, which I take with a thermocouple.



yes that is correct for a hydrometer, a refractometer compensates for temperature, but the alcohol in the refractometer sample screws up the readings, it bends the light more than wort. Most refractometers (certainly the ones in your budget) are no good for fermented liquids.

So you will have to -
1: do it manually with a hydrometer
2: buy some other instrument to test the gravity of beer
3: devise/find a correction chart for a refractometer to use with alcohol

what we are talking is a long way down the track for you, you need to design this thing to make wort first

Are you planning to automate all the way to packaging? or just to the pitching of yeast into the wort?


----------



## Bandito

cooperplace said:


> Hi bandito, in a previous job decades ago I worked in a hospital chemistry lab doing blood chemistry tests. We used a machine made by Technicon, and it had hundreds of silicon peristaltic tubes going all the time. They would last about 100-250 hours of operation.
> Peter



Hmmm. I did work experiece at Varian Australia, who make AAS, ICP-MS, IR analysers etc. about 12 years ago. I know that they used teflon tubing, but it was too small for what I want it for, I am after something from 1/2" to 1 inch. Someone there said the tubing in the peristatic pumps lasted about 3 months before going opaque (not clear enough to see through - usually because of strong acids - 6+ months if acids were not used - they had autosampler carosels so were used a fair bit.) I have been quite obsessed with teflon since well before then due to its extremely low dielectric properties (Dk=2), and have made some crazy antennas using teflon based fishing line, looked at making microwave circuits using teflon circuit boards. but cost was prohibitive while studying. It seems all uses of teflon apart from frying pans have been made obsolete - perhaps I should give up the eternal search for teflon tubing and get on with my life - silicon is pretty expensive too though - might give it one last go in the next few weeks, and if I cant find teflon tubing after that I end my 12 year search. 

One of the advantages if I can find it is because it has such a low dielectric constant, the dielectric constant of the wort will create so much more difference in capacitance - if I use that sampling method.


----------



## Bandito

paulwolf350 said:


> what we are talking is a long way down the track for you, you need to design this thing to make wort first
> 
> Are you planning to automate all the way to packaging? or just to the pitching of yeast into the wort?



Agreeded, but also nice to get a heads up on what seems will either be the hardest part or the most expensive part of the project!

Well, from day one I have planned to extend the clean in process all the way to cleaning the kegs and bottles - but didnt want to freak out people too much! I guess that boat has not sailed so there is probably no harm in saying it now. I have an idea for a linear valve capable of switching between up to a hundred ways one at a time. Kegs will just be flood drain like the bolltes, with a 180 degree rotation in between rinces.

Oh yea, earlier there was some discussion relating to automating the fermentation process - the main point of that is to automate the clean in process. Since I am doing that it doesnt seem any more complex to automate the transfer of wort and beer and yeast. Cleaning the fermenters is the main reason though.


----------



## MHB

PTFE tube

MHB


----------



## Bandito

Holy F'ing crap! you good sir are my hero! If I can order it from somewhere all my supplies will be sourced from you from now on. Is the website up yet? or do I just call?

I think I hear a bulk buy coming on!

At least I know where the $1500 budget for the project saved so far is going to go!

12 years of searching may be over! I am so happy!


----------



## LethalCorpse

cooperplace said:


> Hey LethalCorpse, I've built bridges, it's not that hard.


Really? Did you build it by yourself, because you'd alienated anyone who might have been able to help you? Were your only prior qualifications that you knew how to draw, and had walked on a few bridges in your time?


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## Bandito

By built I mean modeling the existing structure from the as built design drawings and surveys, then modeling the steel fabricated beams, cleats for formwork, bracing, studs to grip onto the concrete topping. Everything was curved with wierd radiuses, and identifying many issues before it was built that the engineers resolved that would otherwise might have caused it not to fit. It was checked by a fellow worker who's job is to check my work. And in terms of experience I have 8 years, 5 months, 5 days experience of doing about half/half easier and harder projects than this. So your point is I need experience hey? Well the first projext I did on my own was one of my hardest, and I started it not knowing or having ever seen a winding roof, but I jumped in the deep end, got awarded the project by a steel fabricator(partly because it didnt scare me, and partly because everyone else wasscared of it), and with a hell of a lot of hard work and long hours, Ifigured out how a winding roof is constructed. I finnished it sucessfully - didnt make any money, but it went up without a hitch. Now a winding roof is one of the hardest things to model and detail, but I did it sucessfully because I knew I could I do it if I tried. At the end of it I splept for a week pretty much, actually, it was two weeks of sleep after two weeks of 90 hours a week, but that was because I tried so hard - thats the only limit on anyone - anyone can do anything! its just a matter of how hard they are willing to try.

Quote "And god gave unto every man, every power for him to use"


----------



## paulwolf350

more brewery talk and less bridges talk


----------



## Bandito

Agreed.

Spose it's time for a summary of the progress. The big thing I am excited about is getting teflon tubing. it may cost a heap for a huge realm but I believe it is worth whatever it costs. I should have enoughto buy a real so I suppose I need to get to work on what size to get. Well, that is largly determined by the peristatic pump and the valve sizes. So although I havent searched for peristatic pumps in 5 years, I might ask, do they go upto 1/2 inch or even 1 inch? or do I have to make a peristatic pump myself? (I actually decided to get into drafting while trying to design a peristatic pump!) I know how they work, and can do it but it is a lot of work - mounting bearings and what have you.

I will still finish the grain hopper tomorrow- mabee not now though.

Edit: Oh no.....Oh bloody nooo... hmmm, so I guess I am making a custom peristatic pump hey. Oh, well, this is going to be fun, but very hard, very hard indeed. Are there any home made peristatic pumps around that youz know of? I am almost considering modeling up a design and getting it printed with a 3d printer - its a printer that puts down a layer of plastic powder then heats it only in places where it is required to be hard. I have had a couple of soap prototypes 3d printed for my dad that makes natural soap. A bit expensive, but hey, just model it in inventor or solidworks, export it, and a few days later you have a plastic model!


----------



## cooperplace

LethalCorpse said:


> Really? Did you build it by yourself, because you'd alienated anyone who might have been able to help you? Were your only prior qualifications that you knew how to draw, and had walked on a few bridges in your time?




As we both know there's design, costing, planning, surveying, approvals, engineering, tenders, contracts, procurement, supervision, commissioning, traffic management, waste disposal, safety on site, signage, etc, etc, etc, etc as well as all the other bits and pieces like dealing with the local council, 27 or so government departments, the neighbours and the local newspaper. As Barry Gibb said of songwriting, you just do it. Personally I think songwriting would be _much_ harder: I could never do that, I wouldn't have a clue. 

Why are you aggressive to me? I think if someone wants to have a crack at automating their brewery, that's great. No doubt they will learn lots and so will the rest of us if they pass it on. I don't see this as being something that polarizes the homebrew forum.


----------



## Bandito

cooperplace said:


> As we both know there's design, costing, planning, surveying, approvals, engineering, tenders, contracts, procurement, supervision, commissioning, traffic management, waste disposal, safety on site, signage



And brewing!

Great post!


----------



## LethalCorpse

cooperplace said:


> As we both know there's design, costing, planning, surveying, approvals, engineering, tenders, contracts, procurement, supervision, commissioning, traffic management, waste disposal, safety on site, signage, etc, etc, etc, etc as well as all the other bits and pieces like dealing with the local council, 27 or so government departments, the neighbours and the local newspaper.


Yes, my point precisely. Not exactly a job for a one-man band, without any experience, training, or budget, is it? Neither is building a fully automated brewery.


----------



## Bandito

Nope, already said it.


----------



## LethalCorpse

Yes, but since most people learn through repetition, I'm hoping that at some point you'll start to listen to us.


----------



## Bandito

LethalCorpse said:


> Yes, but since most people learn through repetition, I'm hoping that at some point you'll start to listen to us.



Already answered. "The project will going ahead as planned."
Accept it, and stop my clogging up my thread please.


----------



## Bandito

Well, I got the prototype grain hopper mechanism put together, but the bracket that was bolted to the rotating 90mm pvc pipe wasnt central enough and so was making some catching noises as the motor was turning. So I cut a new one, but its too late to finnish, so it'll be tomorrow night. It's looking so crazy, got a nice motor centralising system going on and all.

Will call the wholesalers tomorrow to get a price for a reel of teflon tubing - not looking forward to the quote.


----------



## Bandito

Got the grain hopper put together, and it did do one turn with grain in it, and did work, but then the motor was unable to turn it anymore. The pvc pipe is not quite circular after all the screwes were put in. Will try loosening some screws, but looks like it probably need to be more powerful. Concept is there, but thats why its a prototype. Pics attached.

So now I need to find some proper materials to make it out of - I'm thinking UHMW-PE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene), similar to chopping board - very low fiction. Saw some on the specialised wholesaters site - they source from dotmar which I have sourced UHMW-PE from before for mining applications. Something cheaper would be better though. If it doesnt work, a worm drive will be the next test.

I ordered 10 metres of 1/4 inch OD 4.7mm ID and
10 meters of 0.5 inch OD 0.375 inch ID teflon tube today. Cost about $600. Should recieve it in a week.


----------



## Zizzle

Hmmm... things not working as per fancy drawings... who would have thought?

Can you understand why people say to approach the project in stages?

I also recommend getting rid of those wussy little motors and sourcing some decent ones. I had great success with used windscreen wiper motors. Cheap, very robust, great torque, very amenable to PWM.

Also how easy will that setup be to clean?


----------



## Bandito

Zizzle said:


> Hmmm... things not working as per fancy drawings... who would have thought?
> 
> Can you understand why people say to approach the project in stages?
> 
> I also recommend getting rid of those wussy little motors and sourcing some decent ones. I had great success with used windscreen wiper motors. Cheap, very robust, great torque, very amenable to PWM.
> 
> Also how easy will that setup be to clean?



It is a prototype held together with electrical tape 

Yea, will look on ebay for some higher powered geared motors very soon. I wasnt planning on cleaning the grain hoppers. I should probably make sure there is more of a gap between the inner and outer tubes so tiny grain particals just fall straight through , mabee. Think that might be what jammed it.


----------



## Bandito

I have decided to start preliminary modeling so I can get an idea of the space I have availabe and wether I can increase or have to decrease the scale. Just started, and this is all I have atm. Just about to start measuring up the brewery / laundry. Eventually - like ages away, I will be producing 3d models like the kitchen of the last place I lived in - huge difference at he moment! Thats what happens whan I get bored.


----------



## yardy

very nice kitchen but I don't see any beer, stop ******* around and build it


----------



## Bandito

I am, but in 3d. Patience. The brewery was in another room: Was a cupboard made of mdf and insulated with bean bag beans and other insulation too. Was cooled with 3 watercooled peltier modules - needless to say, it was a faliure - only got down to about 10C when cooled with 24 x 600ml frozen bottles - the morning queensland sun heating up the room was the killer - needed heaps more insulation. Took 3 or 4 months to build. 

Pics here: http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/ali...f-fermentation/












Starter inside it:


----------



## spazhead

LethalCorpse said:


> I'm hoping that at some point you'll start to listen to us.



Bandito it seems that you continue to try to extract expensive information from knowledgeable people that have failed at just what you are trying to achive. Why cant you just give up. You think you can just ask questions and then receive answers for each problem you find but dont share the information for everyone else to gain from. If even just one section of your design works which would enable everyone the chance to copy because you shared the design then it would probably be worth it. But like I said you dont share.
/End extreme sarcasm/

Bandito if you can afford it and have the motivation to continue, go hard. If you fail with any of this then many can be proud that they told you so. 

Me, I think that maybe, just maybe something will get invented that might help others in their brewing. This is a forum isnt it for sharing information not pessimism. If you have somethig negative to say, say it once. Dont continue to say it. Im sure he heard it. 

Im sure I read somewhere that BIAB wouldnt work.


----------



## Bandito

spazhead said:


> /End extreme sarcasm/


 :lol: Only just got that! Thanks, I guess the moral of the previous post is 'dont try to make a fridge from scratch unless you have an unlimited supply of hardcore insulation!' I am just as willing to post my faliures as my successes.

When I have a workable design, I will post all the materials required to make it - this does limit my design, as I could have parts custom machined, but that is expensive, and since one of my design criteria is that parts of this can be extracted by others for integration into their own systems, I would prefer not to do that unless I have to - but if I do, cad files will be posted to allow others to do the same.



spazhead said:


> Bandito if you can afford it and have the motivation to continue, go hard. If you fail with any of this then many can be proud that they told you so.
> 
> Me, I think that maybe, just maybe something will get invented that might help others in their brewing. This is a forum isnt it for sharing information not pessimism. If you have somethig negative to say, say it once. Dont continue to say it. Im sure he heard it.



Zakley! (exactly)

Well, I finnished modeling the basic extents of the laundry / brewery, It really does seem tight on space. And also attached is a zip file which when extracted can be opened on most computers with internet explorer (some pc's wont open it no matter what - tomorrow I will get a link to the software which will open it on pcs that cant open this with ie (windows only - sorry, no linux or mac).

Nothing is positioned, only just finnished measuring up the laundry, er, I mean brewery. 

View attachment banditos_bad_ass_brewery_1.zip


----------



## Bandito

So will my brewery be the first to use teflon tubing or what? Unfortunately, I have never used silicon tubing that I know of. I think my air pump from craftbrewer came with silicon tubing - it is pretty squishy, is that silicon? I am at a loss as to what it is like. I would like something to compare it to when it arrives - counting down the minutes at this point. 

It seems the larger size I got is 3/8th of an inch, and although I dont see any sanitry valves for that size, I do see heaps of motorised valves on ebay - it seems to be used for air - pnumatics - and someone suggested that air valves are available in metal. If I can get a peristatic pump for that size, it may very well be the go. Sives on the MLT & Kettle to prevent blockages.


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito said:


> So will my brewery be the first to use teflon tubing or what? Unfortunately, I have never used silicon tubing that I know of. I think my air pump from craftbrewer came with silicon tubing - it is pretty squishy, is that silicon? I am at a loss as to what it is like. I would like something to compare it to when it arrives - counting down the minutes at this point.



Bandito, Im wondering why you ar so focussed on teflon tubes. The whole world is using silicon tubes as the first choice for use in peristaltic pumps.

Okay, may be you have too much money in your hands


----------



## Bandito

I would call it a teflon obsession! I would love to share the reasons why I am so obsessed with it, but it would prevent me from applying for patients on yet untested inventions. 

I am quite dissapointed that this tubing is not clear, very dissapointed indeed, but on the bright side, this stuff will be so slippery that I probably wont need to see inside it, because nothing will stick to it, adhere or adsorb. I dont have any silicon frypans! I do expect big things from this tubing - as long as it is the right size! I had to act fast to ensure I got it for cost price plus tax, if I had waited I might have been charged double what I paid. No Zwickel, not much money in my hands since paying for the tubing!

As for the brewery design, I was really worried that I just didnt have enough space and would need to take over the bathroom instead, but by moving the washing machine infront of the back door, I now have up to 1.3 meters width at my disposal. Phew, was quite worried for a while there.


----------



## jimmybee

the back door to the house is totally over rated..... great idea! please tell me you have other access....


----------



## Bandito

I do prefer the front door, or the other back door, or when I misplace my keys, the balcony door - spider man, spider man....

I have only used that back laundry door twice in 6 months - it wont be missed.


----------



## manticle

Bandito said:


> it would prevent me from applying for patients .



Every doctor should have a teflon surgery.


----------



## Bandito

Okay, so I spelt it incorrectly! it should read patent!


----------



## gregs

Lots and lots of talk here, I dont know if this thing will ever eventuate. 

This thread is like a C- grade budget movie. :huh:


----------



## yardy

gregs said:


> Lots and lots of talk here, I dont know if this thing will ever eventuate.




he'll be that old by the time it's finished that the beer will be have to be administered intravenously


----------



## Batz

Seems a simple enough project to me.

View attachment untitled.bmp


Batz


----------



## NickB

Indeed Batz, can't see why it's not finished and pumping out mini batches by now...


----------



## domonsura

Can't be bothered reading through (insert number of pages) of criticism - I've already read more than enough nay saying in the first couple of pages and it seems to get worse as it goes on....will some of you guys never learn?

I say FUCKEM! Bandito, If it makes you happy and you are enjoying slowly working/learning your way towards a finish line - keep doing it. If there is anything that I can help with in terms of fiddly little stainless bits made to fit - please let me know I would be very happy to help.

It's not always about the destination guys, sometimes it's about who you meet and what you learn along the way. Over the last few years I have watched a number of you _others_ re-invent the wheel with mixed success at times, and at times there have been some 'brewing rules' dis-proved as well. That's how progress and new discoveries are made. Isn't that part of what this site is about? This guy clearly has _some_ skills and a heap of motivation, - if you have something positive to contribute or a way to save him some $$ or effort, speak up otherwise please STFU - Otherwise he might just decide to keep it to himself and we'd all be a little poorer for it .........

LC!!!!
"Yes, my point precisely. Not exactly a job for a one-man band, without any experience, training, or budget, is it? Neither is building a fully automated brewery."

WTF man? Of course it's a job for a one man band! Unless you have a team of people ready to help him? Cmon man, take a positive pill or something......


----------



## manticle

domonsura said:


> Can't be bothered reading through (insert number of pages) of criticism - I've already read more than enough nay saying in the first couple of pages and it seems to get worse as it goes on....will some of you guys never learn?
> 
> I say FUCKEM! Bandito, If it makes you happy and you are enjoying slowly working/learning your way towards a finish line - keep doing it. If there is anything that I can help with in terms of fiddly little stainless bits made to fit - please let me know I would be very happy to help.



There's actually a lot of supportive posts, suggestions and ideas in the first 6 or so pages and very little naysaying just for the sake of it.

If he can pull this off then I think it's great - no harm in evaluating and re-evaluating based on others' experience and knowledge. I think the main suggestion so far has been to familiarise himself better with brewing processes which will help make this project more feasible.


----------



## domonsura

manticle said:


> There's actually a lot of supportive posts, suggestions and ideas in the first 6 or so pages and very little naysaying just for the sake of it.
> 
> If he can pull this off then I think it's great - no harm in evaluating and re-evaluating based on others' experience and knowledge. I think the main suggestion so far has been to familiarise himself better with brewing processes which will help make this project more feasible.



:lol: 'in the first six pages'....
OK...fair enough, but the bickering and shit starts later on anyway regardless.......

I'm really interested in seeing the process he goes through, hopefully to completion. It is a huge task yes, but it doesn't sound to me like he doesn't understand this, nor does it sound like he is short of resources (clever friends to drag into the project if required). Enough sidetracking though. 
Speaking of mammoth tasks, what's happening with Jonathon's brewery too? Bandito, you'd probably better watch his thread with some interest, he's a man on a mission like yourself.....put you two in a workshop with internet access and god knows what you'd come up with......:lol:


----------



## manticle

I think a couple of people who started with the best intentions took exception to being told to lick his balls.

Anyway, bickering aside (which there's already enough of on the internet) I'm interested to see how it progresses. Even if it doesn't come to fruition there'll be something good to come out of it no doubt.

And bandito - my reference to Doctors was a joke only. I realised what you meant and was gently taking the piss (although a teflon surgery does sound pretty cool).


----------



## domonsura

manticle said:


> I think a couple of people who started with the best intentions took exception to being told to lick his balls.



BAHAAHAAHAA...:lol:...didn't see that bit. :lol:...doesn't really change my opinion though. That just shows he might survive this board after all....


----------



## katzke

domonsura said:


> It is a huge task yes, but it doesn't sound to me like he doesn't understand this, nor does it sound like he is short of resources (clever friends to drag into the project if required). Enough sidetracking though.



I guess you need to read more of the posts. He admits he does not know much about brewing or the terms or how the equipment is used.

Look at the results of his hopper design. He says the solution to the problem of binding is to make it looser so the small grains can pass by the cylinder. I have never seen a cylinder measure that used that approach. They all tighten it up and use hard materials to cut the offending material. Plus I see no way to accurately measure the grain with his one-size fits all method.

He ignores suggestion by people that know more and have made the same mistakes he is making and says to get lost. I will leave the dog hygiene out of the conversation.

I have stopped offering suggestions and help because he admits he wants us to design his system for him, yet ignores any suggestions of how to do it. I only read it to see how bad he is doing. Kind of why I watch races, to see the wrecks. I also watch to see good technical racing and passing action. But when that does not happen the wrecks are the interest. If he starts to take advice and shows progress then I will make constructive comments.

At this time I see it as a great economic opportunity for many people. He has spent 600 bucks for tubing that is not needed. I can see this project going way over budget and ending in disaster unless he starts to listen to other that have gone down the path. Many are half way there and if he listened I am sure he could get most if not all of the rest of the way there. He just insists on doing it his way with little or no knowledge of what he is doing.

It is kind of like if you thought you could make a better light bulb and had no more experience then turning on a light and drafting. Would you make a better bulb in less tries then Edison? Would you look at what all the others did and re-evaluate what they did, through out the sure losers, make changes to some of their failures to have a decent chance at completing the task?

What I am saying s just because someone failed does not say it can not be done. But at least look at the failure to see if there are any possibilities.

He has it in his head that with almost no brewing experience he can make a totally automated brewing system. All while tossing out any suggestions of how to do it just because he thinks he knows it can be done and he is the one to do it.


----------



## MHB

There are some pretty cool automated brewing systems out there, have a look at this one from Siemens (if you got a couple of hundred K you just dont need).

I suppose my question is - if automation is all that good why do they still need brewers?

MHB


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

manticle said:


> I think a couple of people who started with the best intentions took exception to being told to lick his balls.






domonsura said:


> BAHAAHAAHAA... :lol: ...didn't see that bit. :lol: ...doesn't really change my opinion though. That just shows he might survive this board after all....



I just think it's funny that so many people have lost their sense of humor. When I read the post from Bandito about how all the naysayers and how they can 'lick my balls' I was LOL'ing, PMSL'ing and ROFL'ing (and any other stupid acronyms for laughing)

Well all I can say Bandito is keep at it mate show some these guys that sometimes these things can be done. FFS if they can put a man on the moon in the sixties surely we can automatically brew beer in 2010's (not sure what these years are called, the teenies?). In my opinion anything can be with time, money and persistance.

Good luck mate I'll be watching this thread.

Cheers
Farside.


----------



## yardy

domonsura said:


> Can't be bothered reading through (insert number of pages) of criticism - I've already read more than enough nay saying in the first couple of pages and it seems to get worse as it goes on....will some of you guys never learn?
> 
> I say FUCKEM! Bandito, If it makes you happy and you are enjoying slowly working/learning your way towards a finish line - keep doing it. If there is anything that I can help with in terms of fiddly little stainless bits made to fit - please let me know I would be very happy to help.
> 
> It's not always about the destination guys, sometimes it's about who you meet and what you learn along the way. Over the last few years I have watched a number of you _others_ re-invent the wheel with mixed success at times, and at times there have been some 'brewing rules' dis-proved as well. That's how progress and new discoveries are made. Isn't that part of what this site is about? This guy clearly has _some_ skills and a heap of motivation, - if you have something positive to contribute or a way to save him some $$ or effort, speak up otherwise please STFU - Otherwise he might just decide to keep it to himself and we'd all be a little poorer for it .........
> 
> LC!!!!
> "Yes, my point precisely. Not exactly a job for a one-man band, without any experience, training, or budget, is it? Neither is building a fully automated brewery."
> 
> WTF man? Of course it's a job for a one man band! Unless you have a team of people ready to help him? Cmon man, take a positive pill or something......




without getting into a blue over a bloke that at the start of his project, didn't know what a Kettle was, you really should read the entire thread before you start slinging, quite a few of us did throw some constructive criticism around without telling him straight out that he may be in over his head, this bloke clearly has no idea and no respect for others members of the forum who are trying to help, check his sig ffs.


Dave


----------



## domonsura

OK. Clearly my sense of humour is also misunderstood as well.....no suprises there either. I'm not trying to start a blue over it either, so I have bothered to read more. Now I am poorer for having read through another AHB shitfight regardless of who called who what. And what a surprise to see that some people were told to lick his balls, and the posts that prompted such a response from him....(no surprise at all)

I also wasn't alluding to his _brewing _skills or experience...because when it comes to thinking outside the square for solutions sometimes it pays not to have any that might pre-dispose you to thinking that only one way works. (When I started making my first AG brewery I had done precisely 2 partial brews) 

I'm just horrified by some of the posts made by people who are clearly laying into this guy far harder than is necessary....Big Fridge, Katzke, LethalCorpse and to some degree Komodo (although I can see what you were trying to say, I don't think any of you really needed to be quite so blunt about it).......I know very well that in your fields, _some_ of you have a level of expertise that is admirable - and yes, your brewing experience in some cases is up there too. But there's some serious and completely irrelevant bignoting going on there as well, and apart from the heinous crime of not knowing everything and having all the answers straight away to keep you all happy, this guy (up till page 9)has said nothing I've seen to deserve the totally fkn out of line comments that are being directed at him - unless that is the people making them know him very well personally, have read his CV, worked with him and can with absolute certainty state that he has 'NFI' as one put it, or that he doesn't have the ability to do it. How the hell would any of you know? And for the record...it did take him 9 whole pages to tell people to 'lick his balls' and in this particular case at that point in the posts - I think some of you deserved it. (Not you Yardy  ) Up till then I think he copped it all on the chin and said SFA. Right about the point some of you started stooping to insulting him personally - he gave it back. The people he was referring to need to deal with it, or keep their thoughts to themselves...he might not finish it....but it certainly won't be because you lot apathetically told him to 'give up now'.

- to quote Spazhead in post 210...."Me, I think that maybe, just maybe something will get invented that might help others in their brewing. This is a forum isnt it for sharing information not pessimism. If you have somethig negative to say, say it once. Dont continue to say it. Im sure he heard it.

Im sure I read somewhere that BIAB wouldnt work. "

And now having read through the whole %^$&^$& thread and well aware of what everyone has said, I stand by my original post......the only thing that has changed has been my opinion of a couple of the other posters.....


----------



## Bandito

Well, inspired by Zwickels other thread, I spent the afternoon googling, and found that my grain hopper design is called a rotary valve. All I can find are metal ones and way too big. then it dawned on me that there must be some general use product available - automatic pet feeders! So something like this will be used for the grain measurement. http://uniquedistributors.com/autopetfeeders.html

It also seems my crushed tube design is called a pinch valve, like this http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/020/20950.jpg
Just need to find one with a motor.

It is nice to know that the designs I came up with actually exist.


----------



## manticle

Did you check the link MHB posted? There's a downloadable pdf in the braumat compact section which contains diagrams and schematics. Obviously it's someone else's design and the costs will be above and beyond your intended outlay but there might be some ideas/inspiration in there.


----------



## Bandito

Thanks for reminding me, it is time to go and look at the links that have been posted. As MHB said, I do like to go in blind without knowing what others have done - I find it makes for more original designs. Often I come up with the same design as others, but sometimes it produces something completely original.


----------



## suchidog

any help?

http://www.homebrew.com.sg/products/Brumas-brochure.pdf


----------



## Back Yard Brewer

domonsura said:


> OK. Clearly my sense of humour is also misunderstood as well.....no suprises there either. I'm not trying to start a blue over it either, so I have bothered to read more. Now I am poorer for having read through another AHB shitfight regardless of who called who what. And what a surprise to see that some people were told to lick his balls, and the posts that prompted such a response from him....(no surprise at all)
> 
> I also wasn't alluding to his _brewing _skills or experience...because when it comes to thinking outside the square for solutions sometimes it pays not to have any that might pre-dispose you to thinking that only one way works. (When I started making my first AG brewery I had done precisely 2 partial brews)
> 
> I'm just horrified by some of the posts made by people who are clearly laying into this guy far harder than is necessary....Big Fridge, Katzke, LethalCorpse and to some degree Komodo (although I can see what you were trying to say, I don't think any of you really needed to be quite so blunt about it).......I know very well that in your fields, _some_ of you have a level of expertise that is admirable - and yes, your brewing experience in some cases is up there too. But there's some serious and completely irrelevant bignoting going on there as well, and apart from the heinous crime of not knowing everything and having all the answers straight away to keep you all happy, this guy (up till page 9)has said nothing I've seen to deserve the totally fkn out of line comments that are being directed at him - unless that is the people making them know him very well personally, have read his CV, worked with him and can with absolute certainty state that he has 'NFI' as one put it, or that he doesn't have the ability to do it. How the hell would any of you know? And for the record...it did take him 9 whole pages to tell people to 'lick his balls' and in this particular case at that point in the posts - I think some of you deserved it. (Not you Yardy  ) Up till then I think he copped it all on the chin and said SFA. Right about the point some of you started stooping to insulting him personally - he gave it back. The people he was referring to need to deal with it, or keep their thoughts to themselves...he might not finish it....but it certainly won't be because you lot apathetically told him to 'give up now'.
> 
> - to quote Spazhead in post 210...."Me, I think that maybe, just maybe something will get invented that might help others in their brewing. This is a forum isnt it for sharing information not pessimism. If you have somethig negative to say, say it once. Dont continue to say it. Im sure he heard it.
> 
> Im sure I read somewhere that BIAB wouldnt work. "
> 
> And now having read through the whole %^$&^$& thread and well aware of what everyone has said, I stand by my original post......the only thing that has changed has been my opinion of a couple of the other posters.....




Dom,

Well spoken, if you aren't careful you will soon fall into the Pistol Patch category of 150 words or less and may be moderated. Yes let the guy / gal go. If it all works out the silence will most likely be deafening. If he/she fails............................... well look the f**k out. I will follow with interest.

BYB


----------



## bill_gill85

Slightly OT,

Isn't a Braumeister pretty much considered automated? The only things missing from a Braumiester is CIP, an automated drain to fermentor, automated malt removal & sparge & hop additions.

Back on topic;

Process wise, does the grain have to be mixed & milled internal to the process? Currently, I order my grains locally & the HBS prefers to mill the recipe rather than mill the specialty grains separately. I know that you have separate hoppers that mix prior to milling, but if you could remove the need to mill or mix grain, the process could be simplified significantly.

As far as cleaning the mash tun, I believe that a tipping tun seems to be the most popular for most people with a fixed brewstand.

The current concerns I'd like to see addressed are;

1) Control cabinet sizing & location
2) Consideration of CIP issues, ie, do you plan on housing the whole contraption in a cabinet such as to contain any spray?

I know that until control gear is specified, it can be difficult to allow space for the required SSR's PLC's etc, but even for a simple system the control cabinets can take up a large amount of space.
All breweries that I have seen have floor drains in the brewing area to simplify the washdown process. The difficulties of replicating this in a residential location will necessitate a different approach.


The best system I have seen for the removal of grain that would be practical in a home setting is that of the Braumeister system I mentioned above. There are videos on youtube showing the brewing process with the braumeister.

Do you plan on doing the fabrication yourself? How familiar are you with sanitary welding? The last thing you want is a shiny column of stainless steel that looks like a brewery, but turns out to be a bacteria culturing machine. 

I'd echo the same sentiments as most of implementing the project in stages, even if only so that you can fault find infections easier, but I know that you've convinced yourself to do it all at once.

I'm definately looking forward to the final result & I'll be envious if you manage to pull it off!


----------



## Bandito

suchidog said:


> any help?
> 
> http://www.homebrew.com.sg/products/Brumas-brochure.pdf



Could be a nice starting point, but not automated enough  quite expensive too, there goes the budget.

Found a specific pinch valve but the price for 1/4" OD and 3/16" ID is US$84 quite a bit more pricy than I was hoping, add a feedback sensor and its US$135, and the larger size that I want would be way more, but they are magnificent. Will keep looking for cheaper versions. Might have to call a few suppliers and ask for advice on where to get cheaper ones.

https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...?idCategory=250

I am toying with the idea of the MLT having a full sized valve on the bottom - as in a 300mm valve on the bottom of a 300mm tun. The the flase bottom being a butterfly valve. Still bit issues with space there, but if that doesnt get rid of the spent grist nothing will. Still looking at the traditional tilting method though.

My LHBS only has 3 year old cracked grain. I would like seperate automatic pet feeders to allow the pc to decide the recipe. Of course if I go batches with more complex grain bills, I would probably mix some of the specialities together in one of them.

I have a drain in the middle of the floor. The whole contraption will be enclosed somewhat and have a frame holding everything together, with a bund at the very bottom of it draining into the floor drain - that looks like the main drainage method, pumping up into the sink would only be required if there was no floor drain - an option though.

Will have a look at the utube video. 

Doubt I will be welding stainless fittings myself.


----------



## roger mellie

MHB said:


> There are some pretty cool automated brewing systems out there, have a look at this one from Siemens (if you got a couple of hundred K you just dont need).
> 
> I suppose my question is - if automation is all that good why do they still need brewers?
> 
> MHB



Gotten Himmel

Siemens PCS7 - for a small - read really small system - the licence for the engineering station alone is circa AUD 40K. 

To quote a very learned friend who (like me) works on these systems for a living. Excuse my french.

"Siemens PCS7 - It must ******* Die along with the engineers that wrote it and the Sales People that Sell it"

RM

(secretly looking forward to buying a Semi Automated brewing system of American origin h34r: h34r: h34r: )


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito, what for do you need a pinch valve? if youre going to use roller pumps, you wouldnt need any pinch valve. As the roller pump stops, the hose in it will be clamped, you wouldnt need an additional valve.
The setting of the rolls in the roller pump should be occlusive, so when the pump stops, the flow stops too.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bandito

There are lots of valves in my preliminary design, while some will be made obsolete with gravity and simplification, there will still be quite a few. I'm hoping to use them everywhere (well, not everywhere). They are completely sanitry if I use ones that fit onto existing tube. And there are models that can switch multiple tubes at once which would reduce the total number.

In all the searches, I found a couple of manual ones that others might be interested in for their sanitryness:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Flow-Control-Pinch-Val...=item2a03e72062

and 

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/10995#_normalStart


----------



## Bandito

You know, when I first saw the term BIAB - brew in a bag, I thought it meant fermenting in a bag. I just Started searching for conical fermenters and remembered the initial thought - perhaps bags that could be used for fermenters, and yes, they are the teflon kind. Found some standard style square ones for US$20 to US$55 (the modified PTFE liners are US$13 to US32) for 20 litre and 220 litre respectively. At the moment this is just a pie in the sky thought, as I would want to either fit nicely into a conical container, or have an outlet at one lower corner and hang it in the fridge.

http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfadrumliners.aspx
http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfapailliners.aspx
So question is: does anyone ferment in a bag? - thought I saw something once, but is hard to find with all the biab stuff around.


----------



## fcmcg

I did hear that the poms ( in the 70's) used to ferment in a bag..in a fermenter...but then i am half cut as my poor little dog is very sick and if he doesn't make it to Friday without eating...its the green dream...but anyway...off topic...
From what i can remember...bag...in a fermenter....
So sort of ferment in a bag....but still in a fermenter...
Interesting thread this...what with all the sh&t being thrown...but good luck man...
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## Bandito

Sorry to hear that dude, I lost my little rotty to parvovirus, was not nice. Hope all turns out well. Need to get to a 24hr vet. 

Will search with those terms.


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## Bandito

Emergency vet links from yarraville vet website:

http://www.yarravillevet.com.au/joomla/ind...8&Itemid=13 

More:
http://www.localbusinessguide.com.au/listi...nimal-hospital/
http://www.localbusinessguide.com.au/listi...tes-yarraville/
http://www.localbusinessguide.com.au/listi...west-footscray/
http://www.localbusinessguide.com.au/victo...tona/Pets/Vets/
http://www.localbusinessguide.com.au/listi...r-williamstown/
Vets will let you pay off the bill

Think I'm getting too much practice with google!


----------



## komodo

For your filling and cleaning of fermenters would you not be better off with a conveyor design. Less sanitary issues and plumbing. I'm thinking like the McDonalds drive thru automated drink filling machines. If your only moving 5L around at a time it could work.


----------



## Kieren

Bandito said:


> You know, when I first saw the term BIAB - brew in a bag, I thought it meant fermenting in a bag. I just Started searching for conical fermenters and remembered the initial thought - perhaps bags that could be used for fermenters, and yes, they are the teflon kind. Found some standard style square ones for US$20 to US$55 (the modified PTFE liners are US$13 to US32) for 20 litre and 220 litre respectively. At the moment this is just a pie in the sky thought, as I would want to either fit nicely into a conical container, or have an outlet at one lower corner and hang it in the fridge.
> 
> http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfadrumliners.aspx
> http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfapailliners.aspx
> So question is: does anyone ferment in a bag? - thought I saw something once, but is hard to find with all the biab stuff around.



I believe the U-Brew-It franchise use some sort of bag to line their fermenters. Never been to one myself, just what someone told me who has "brewed" there. I think they then just throw away the bag to save cleaning the fermenter. Don't know how they transfer the beer, syphoning i would imagine.

Kieren


----------



## Bandito

Whats that like? Moving the vessels instead of the wort? not sure...
Planning on 20L batches now.


----------



## Brewman_

Kieren said:


> I believe the U-Brew-It franchise use some sort of bag to line their fermenters. Never been to one myself, just what someone told me who has "brewed" there. I think they then just throw away the bag to save cleaning the fermenter. Don't know how they transfer the beer, syphoning i would imagine.
> 
> Kieren



Yeh, exactly right. Never brewed there but went and had a look and they use bag liners that fold over the top of the fermenter. And yes I believe they syphon the beer out - well so my mate who brews there told me. I reckon the bag liners make sense in that commercial application.

Fear_n_Loath


----------



## Frank

Fermentabag for the wine industry.


----------



## Brewman_

That's a good link.

I like the idea of the bag when you are using a polythene fermenter. With the bag they will almost last forever.

The ideal for me is a SS fermenter and probably too for the wine makers, but the same issue I think would be the capital. Then a frame with a Poly bag, does the job.

Fear_n_loath


----------



## Bandito

Bandito said:


> Found a specific pinch valve but the price for 1/4" OD and 3/16" ID is US$84 quite a bit more pricy than I was hoping, add a feedback sensor and its US$135, and the larger size that I want would be way more, but they are magnificent. Will keep looking for cheaper versions. Might have to call a few suppliers and ask for advice on where to get cheaper ones.
> 
> https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...?idCategory=250



I'm hard at work here kicking it up another notch. I have all but decided to get the pinch valves mentioned above. There was note on the biochemfluidics site saying that orders over $500 got wholesale prices, so I am hoping the price to go down considerably. The tube size above is the smaller size I have ordered - just by luck!

I wont get the feedback sensor version - as with all faults (power outage, unexplained faliure etc.) the batch will just be dumped.

I plan to order about 20 of the pinch valves mentined above next week - probably a combination of normally closed and normally open.

The only burning issue at the moment is that 4.7mm ID might be too small for the compact yeast cakes produced by ver flocculant yeasts - S23 is the hardest cake I have seen, but if any valve is going to pass it, it is a full bore tube pinch valve. Oh, an by that I mean the 1/4" ID tubing will be the main lower connection into the fermenters.

I will put sieves on the outlets on the MLT and Kettle to avoid husks, twigs, hops and cockroaches from entering the lines.

Next thing is to find proper T piece and X piece teflon connectors. These will reduce the bore a bit, and am trying to redesign the PFD to avoid them, but they will be needed.

Still looking for a Peristatic pump - it will most likely be a cole-palmer brand as the have drivers for the Labview graphical automation program, so will allow flow control etc. A link to a random pump (not one I want): http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_...asp?sku=7822130 and so I dont loose the link of the only page that mentions the tubing sizes: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_...asp?sku=9641015

So the question is: is 4.7mm Inside Diameter tubing too small? Me, I think it is on the verge.


----------



## Bandito

Just got off the phone with biochemfluidics in the US but it is only 7:30am there and there is a snow storm atm so no engineers or sales people in at the moment. The guy I spoke to said that they have tested teflon tubing, but the cost was prohibative. So it sounds like it could work, but will have to stay up for another hour to call back and get the modulus of elasticity of their tubing to compare it to mine and get a wholesale price  . 

And just tried calling cole-palmer in the UK but they are on lunch!


----------



## Westoz

Manticles under 30 buck rig vs your whatever rig same brew same ingdients at what cost
per litre.Most of us on here are are about making better beers and cheaper than we can buy from 
the mega swillers. K.I.S.S. brew for what suits your needs .Anyway you look at it its the end vs the 
means. Good luck in your quest. Question do you like beer. ?


----------



## Pete2501

:icon_offtopic: Your avatar freaks me out Bandito.


----------



## Westoz

Carefull Pete that may just be bandito .brewer from another planet. :blink:
Sorry dude im not in your all out process to re invent the brewery.
Take a trip to what is a fully automated mass produced swill factory.
We make it how we want it , SIMPLE


----------



## Bandito

Love the taste of my HB - just hate the cleaning and the time it takes away from my work and fishing.

Yea, my avartar is a concrete alien scultpture that took 4 years to clone - thats the 4th generation - he is called Mikael (after the archangel) - may have taken a long time to make, and everyone said it was a waste of time and money, but I see him every day and I love it - a true work of art. All adults are freaked out by it - "Its looking at me!" they say.

Just got off the phone to biochemfluidics, I will have to send them a sample of my tubing to test it and adjust springs and mabee make a custom knife - free service. The discount starts at 25 pieces with 15% off, then 50 pieces, then 100 pieces with 22% off (I was hoping for 50%  )

And only just got off the phone to coleparmer in th UK - they wont give out the sizes of their masterflex tubing as it is a secret aparently! and only one of their pumps is pc compatable. I think I got them mixed up with ismatec pumps.... called them and after thinking I had called the wrong number, the third person they handed the phone to said to go to their aussie distributor processpumps.com.au

I'm tired, bed now.


----------



## Pete2501

It still freaks me out but as a conselation I like the story that goes with it.


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> Well, inspired by Zwickels other thread, I spent the afternoon googling, and found that my grain hopper design is called a rotary valve. All I can find are metal ones and way too big. then it dawned on me that there must be some general use product available - automatic pet feeders! So something like this will be used for the grain measurement. http://uniquedistributors.com/autopetfeeders.html
> 
> It also seems my crushed tube design is called a pinch valve, like this http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/020/20950.jpg
> Just need to find one with a motor.
> 
> It is nice to know that the designs I came up with actually exist.



Yes, they might exist - but not in automated breweries.

I pleaded with you to read a professional brewing book as all the design process has been done for you. They do not use 'pet feeders' in breweries, but they do use a tipping skip ie a bin that fills with a known amount of grain and then tips the grain into the crusher. Count the number of tips and you know what grain you have measured out. No physical contact means nothing to bind or get caught. You could adapt this to use a water wheel type device.

There, I guess that I have just designed your grain control system for you.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Bandito said:


> You know, when I first saw the term BIAB - brew in a bag, I thought it meant fermenting in a bag. I just Started searching for conical fermenters and remembered the initial thought - perhaps bags that could be used for fermenters, and yes, they are the teflon kind. Found some standard style square ones for US$20 to US$55 (the modified PTFE liners are US$13 to US32) for 20 litre and 220 litre respectively. At the moment this is just a pie in the sky thought, as I would want to either fit nicely into a conical container, or have an outlet at one lower corner and hang it in the fridge.
> 
> http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfadrumliners.aspx
> http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfapailliners.aspx
> So question is: does anyone ferment in a bag? - thought I saw something once, but is hard to find with all the biab stuff around.



You mean something like this??

Proof of concept






A more refined design




An alternative that is easier to make, does all the same stuff... but isn't as pretty or "conical" as the other design.




Constructed from oxyproof bags that previously contained hop pellets... I'm working on a cheaper easier to make design that could be torn off a roll and used as a "one time" fermenter. These ones are cut out by hand and plastic welded on my vacuum sealer.... time consuming and sporadically leaky. But its got pretty much all the features of a metal conical fermenter.. except you hang it off a rail and toss it out when you are done.

I claim this idea as mine... so there  Anybody who commercializes it and makes a million bucks - you owe me a slab of damn good beer at least.

TB


----------



## domonsura

Thirsty Boy said:


> You mean something like this??
> 
> Proof of concept
> 
> View attachment 35478
> View attachment 35477
> 
> 
> A more refined design
> 
> View attachment 35479
> 
> 
> An alternative that is easier to make, does all the same stuff... but isn't as pretty or "conical" as the other design.
> 
> View attachment 35480
> 
> 
> Constructed from oxyproof bags that previously contained hop pellets... I'm working on a cheaper easier to make design that could be torn off a roll and used as a "one time" fermenter. These ones are cut out by hand and plastic welded on my vacuum sealer.... time consuming and sporadically leaky. But its got pretty much all the features of a metal conical fermenter.. except you hang it off a rail and toss it out when you are done.
> 
> I claim this idea as mine... so there  Anybody who commercializes it and makes a million bucks - you owe me a slab of damn good beer at least.
> 
> TB


Nice idea thirsty...very nice! cleaning fermenters...a thing of the past soon perhaps?


----------



## MHB

Sorry TB not a new idea, remember the first home brew commercially available in Australia was Coopers, in a plastic bag, that was the fermenter as well as the shipping container.
Ive got some 20L bladders, like big wine bladders that we have tried fermenting in.
The problem is that to get a production run made of a custom bag, you have to order 10,000 of the suckers, at around $3-4 each.
MHB


----------



## Thirsty Boy

MHB said:


> Sorry TB not a new idea, remember the first home brew commercially available in Australia was Coopers, in a plastic bag, that was the fermenter as well as the shipping container.
> Ive got some 20L bladders, like big wine bladders that we have tried fermenting in.
> The problem is that to get a production run made of a custom bag, you have to order 10,000 of the suckers, at around $3-4 each.
> MHB



ahh - but were they shiny and conical?? Just a bag to ferment in isn't the idea, there's quite a few wine fermenting bags out there - boring!! - what you want is a bag that does all the stuff that a great big expensive cylindro conical does.

I know about the issues with commercialization.. I did kind of look into it. Wouldn't be too hard to rig up a plastic welding "jig" to knock em out in a few minutes a piece though. Section of wide plastic tube (or two sheets) goes in... conical bag fermenter comes out. I couldn't be arsed but I dont think it would bee too hard.

Anyway... should stop diverting this thread. Sorry.


----------



## Bandito

bigfridge said:


> Yes, they might exist - but not in automated breweries.
> 
> I pleaded with you to read a professional brewing book as all the design process has been done for you. They do not use 'pet feeders' in breweries, but they do use a tipping skip ie a bin that fills with a known amount of grain and then tips the grain into the crusher. Count the number of tips and you know what grain you have measured out. No physical contact means nothing to bind or get caught. You could adapt this to use a water wheel type device.
> 
> There, I guess that I have just designed your grain control system for you.



One of my first thoughts about the grain measuring was to use a bucket elevator - I'm guessing thats what you are describing, but I discounted it due to the large space it would require and the high mechanical engineering it would require. I am only making a small automated brewery - I think a small automatic pet food dispenser will be perfect for the scale and cost I am after.

I am aware that pinch valves are not used in brewerys - I think it is because flexible tube doesnt work in them above 2" diameter, above that size they have flange fittings and the internal valve is mabe of flexible elastomer which comes in direct contact with the fluid - the large ones are usually used for sewridge and water treatment plants where the fluids can contain large amounts of solids that would block other valves. The small ones are used, um, not sure where - in my brewery? yea, thats it!

There are pumps that have a check valve on each side of a pinch pump - both check valves are pointed in the same direction. The pinch valve closing compresses the fluid forcing it out one check valve, then when the pinch valve opens it draws in fluid from the other check valve - thinking of using one as a dosing pump for the cleaning chemicals. Large versions of this are used to pump sewridge :icon_vomit: 


Nice custom bag Thirsty boy! Thats sort of it, but with fittings for a tube in the bottom and top. 


I am still on the fence as to wether 1/4" Outside diameter & 4.7mm (3/16") Inside Diameter tube is too small for the wort side of the system. The overflow tubes which will be used for cleaning will be 1/2" OD & 3/8" ID to allow for passing stray grains, twigs, hops, roaches etc. Think I may have caused some confusion earlier where I mentioned the wrong ID of the smaller tubing.

Speaking of which, should arrive next week, then I will send a sample off the the US to have the valves customised - big weekend ahead going into the weekend after finalising the valve specifics!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Bandito said:


> Nice custom bag Thirsty boy! Thats sort of it, but with fittings for a tube in the bottom and to



If you look at the design closely you will see you dont need fittings. There is a vent/input at the top. You fill through there by poking in a hose and jam a nice standard bung with an airlock in there to seal.

The bottom needs no fitting, it is sealed closed and remains so until you want to drop the yeast. Pinch closed with fingers, snip end off with scissors, control flow with the simplest sort of pinch valve -- fingers. When the yeast has been removed you just roll the end up and close it with a little clip. I used a clothes peg and you can see it working in the last photo.

Its a design thing - fittings mean expense, lack of flat packing, a need to open the fermenter and fiddle with it etc etc. No fittings means it is simple and able to be easily cleaned and sanitised. And easy to clean and sanitise is pretty much the most important thing to consider in the design of anything in a brewery.

Gotta read those brewing texts... plant design is massive for proper cleaning. Pipe diameter, fluid velocity, vortex and turbulence patterns. Not too vital in a normal HB setting... but if you are truly looking for automation that stuff will become important.

You seen those water features in peoples gardens -- a chunk of bamboo pipe on a pivot that fills up with water then overbalances and tips itself out.... repeat. Think about a version of that for your grain measurement. Thats more what Bigfridge was talking about. You count the number of times it tips, you know how much tips out each time and you get your weight measurement. And leave out grain elevators altogether if you can...go with gravity. Grain elevators (especially damn bucket elevators) are a pain in the arse.

look at this page - substitute a stream of grain for the stream of water and add a little jigger to count the tips and turn off your grain flow - Bob's your mothers brother. Or a lot of breweries just use a time of flow. Silo opens for x seconds per unit of weight. Not particularly accurate, but not too bad either.

Basically you need to start with a grain silo at the top of the stairs and work your way down in a tower. Silo (or silo*s* if you plan to use more than one type of grain), Weigher, Graincase, Mill, Grist case, Masher, Mash tun.


----------



## RdeVjun

Thirsty Boy said:


> You seen those water features in peoples gardens -- a chunk of bamboo pipe on a pivot that fills up with water then overbalances and tips itself out.... repeat. Think about a version of that for your grain measurement. Thats more what Bigfridge was talking about. You count the number of times it tips, you know how much tips out each time and you get your weight measurement. And leave out grain elevators altogether if you can...go with gravity. Grain elevators (especially damn bucket elevators) are a pain in the arse.
> 
> look at this page - substitute a stream of grain for the stream of water and add a little jigger to count the tips and turn off your grain flow - Bob's your mothers brother.


Bugger me Thirsty Boy, that's what I know as a Tipping Bucket, although was there supposed to be a link in there? Anyway, most of the world's rainfall measurements are actually made with a Pluviometer which is a small version, we use large versions for surfacewater hydrology but most pictures of them are behind subscriptions, they're just a much bigger pluvio though. 
Simple to sense, just a proximity or reed switch and most dataloggers and interfaces can handle switch closure or pulse inputs, their calibration is reasonably stable at low rates, say <20 tips/ minute but the manifold can have a serious impact on performance with fluids (no citation, personal experience). I only use them in pluvios nowadays, but I have seen some enormous ones up to 1.8m along the axis. I had no idea they would be useful for solids though, only ever used them for fluids!


----------



## yardy

Thirsty Boy said:


> Basically you need to start with a grain silo at the top of the stairs and work your way down in a tower. Silo (or silo*s* if you plan to use more than one type of grain), Weigher, Graincase, Mill, Grist case, Masher, Mash tun.





:lol:


----------



## rwmingis

Bandito said:


> I am still on the fence as to wether 1/4" Outside diameter & 4.7mm (3/16") Inside Diameter tube is too small for the wort side of the system. The overflow tubes which will be used for cleaning will be 1/2" OD & 3/8" ID to allow for passing stray grains, twigs, hops, roaches etc. Think I may have caused some confusion earlier where I mentioned the wrong ID of the smaller tubing.



Back in this now...

Bandito, you might want to use bigger tubing if possible, the 4.7mm ID hose will give you a lot of back pressure. The graph below gives you the friction head of 1m of 4.7mm ID tubing at 60C for various flow rates. In this case, using 1m of tubing at 7L/min, you'd have 10m of head or 15psi. To get the value for 3m of tubing just multiply the friction head from the graph by 3, so 30m of head or 45psi. You'll need a decent pump if you using more than a meter of tubing, and that's before you start adding valves, elbows, and fittings...





The flow rate is in L/min


----------



## Bandito

Thanks thaps bob! I'm currently redoing the pfd - I have temporarily deleted all but one fermenter, and using gravity and now head height of pipes to try an eliminate as many valves as possible. I am planning on using the concept you have shown in the graph to make use of gravity valves - make the head height high enough and the inside diameter small enough, and you have effectively created two valves out of one (one being a machanical valve that will take all the fluid when open, then the gravity valve takes the rest when it is closed. In the zone atm so gotta go.

Oh, by gravity valve I mean say you are pumping into a T piece, one outlet is connected to a valve to control the flow, but the other outlet is perhaps a much smaller inside diameter and goes up mabee 1 meter before turning 180 degrees and going back down - thus, the head height limitation is used for good rather than evil!

Of course, the same could be possible in the reverse - increase the diameter enough and the weight of the fluid in the vertical section of the gravity valve will overwhelm the open normal valve and thus will come to equilibrium when open before fluid passes through the gravity valve threshhold. 

Oh, and the gravity valve term I just made up - not sure if it exists or not for real.


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## Bandito

Attached is a snapshot of a work in progress - still working on it, and will be for a while.

I have color coded tube specifications as well as linewights - so they are readable when printed - the legend is on the left of the page. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_K.pdf


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## Bandito

So I dont loose my concept I will post it here:

Gravity considerations:
HLT above MLT
Hermes above MLT
Kettle below MLT
Chiller below kettle
fermenters below chiller
..............................dont think my ceilings are high enough!

See attached pdf. Only just started looking at the fridge side - still a work in progress..... 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_L.pdf


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## zagadka

Just some thoughts...

Are you thinking something like this pill dispenser system upside down for hops?

Pre-measured increments per division eg 1 gram or recipe specific increments per division?

One carousel for each hop type or premix per division?

Wouldn't you want much more than "30 degrees min" incline on the grain chute?

Might be an idea to collect the hot water out of your heat exchanger in a vat to cycle through for cleaning...

Have you seen powered soap dispensers in some laundries? - Sliding block under a chute with a cavity in it, goes under the chute, fills, dispenses a fixed amount (the cavity) out the other side... Might work for your powdered cleaners.


Been watching this thread for a bit now - going to be interesting to watch it develop!


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## Bandito

I think the design is now half decent :beerbang: Pretty damn happy with it for the most part - still working out the airation system. Roughly modeled the parts in cad, the length of tube is currently 7.2m. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_M.pdf


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## Bandito

Simplified even more - now at 4 or 5 pinch valves plus 5 other valves, 1 peristatic pump and one dosing pump. Removed HERMS. Kettle is now gravity fed by the MLT which allows it to be closer to the ground. Added in dosing pump for starsan. And added a mains pressure sprinkler thingy for cleaning. The MLT is currently drawn with two butterfly valves in the bottom of it, the lower one is watertight, the upper one either has holes drilled in it, or the middle of the plates cut out and a flase bottom mesh welded in.

The idea is that the system does 3 consecutive 20L batchs to make up the 60L ferment size. With the amount of yeast that will produce, manual yeast harvesting is acceptable. Manual yeast pitching is also acceptable, as is airation. To airate will require a very strong pump with a sanitry filter on the outlet, the main beer out line is used as the air in line - big bubbles will form and may not do much, so will keep thinking about this.

TimD: yep, very much like that, adding hops in incerments of say 5 or 10gm, 1 carosel per hop type.
Will have to test the required angle of the grain and hop chutes.
Capturing the hot water would be nice, but doubt I have the space to.
Hmmm, I was googling some powdered soap diapensers for laundries today, wasnt sure how they worked, thanks. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_P.pdf


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## zagadka

OK here you go Bandito here's a quick mock-up for you - This is what I mean... 






Picture yourself standing at the double ended green arrow. You push the plunger in, the cavity fillls from the chute. You pull the plunger toward you, it dispenses out the bottom... 

Although probably not accurate enough, you could do the same for hops and grain measurement...


----------



## Bandito

Wow thats cool! will have to research the availability of those too! Thanks TimD

I've been searching for those medication dispensers, so far cheapest is AU$150 http://www.tabtimer.com.au/epages/tata4926...-e-lert'%22 Other models are $270.

Will keep searching for cheaper, but I think it is perfect for the hops! Will have to get one soon and pull it apart to make sure the motor isnt a stepper motor and it can be controlled easily by the pc. Will save heaps of time. The manual says it wont increment to the next opening when upside down, but it would probably need to be on an angle to fit in the peltier car fridge anyway, and that will probably be on an angle so the pellets fall to one corner - where a soleniod actuated plastic flap with fridge seals will open, the pellets fall onto a slide and then freefall into the kettle - sounds fun! 

Also found some cheap dosing pumps for aquariums. If they are cheap and usable, I'm hoping that the caustic or nappisan cleaning powder can just be dissolved in hot water and one of the cheap dosing pumps used. But I dont really want liquid caustic containers above my head when I'm tinkering.


----------



## LethalCorpse

Bandito said:


> manual yeast harvesting is acceptable. Manual yeast pitching is also acceptable, as is airation.


Is this a fully automated brewery, or not? If it's not, why is each particular stage automated or not?


----------



## Bandito

Taking things out and stripping it back to the bare minimum to the point where it hurts is part of the simplification process. This will be followed by a complification process, then another simplification, then another complification, then the final simplification which will be the final design.The yeast harvested should be enough for multiple pitches, so manually harvesting it will allow it to be washed and split up into pitchable amounts. Thus the pitching would also be suitable for being manual. Automating that would require an autosampling robot.


----------



## zagadka

Bandito said:


> I've been searching for those medication dispensers, so far cheapest is AU$150 http://www.tabtimer.com.au/epages/tata4926...-e-lert'%22 Other models are $270.



You don't need that crap - just the concept. Think the same as the soap dispenser but circular and without a top. Multiple cavities around the circumference. I'll draw one for you tonight if I have time. That will also be much lower profile than the pill dispensers.

You probably _do_ want a stepper motor - a stepper controller kit for a PC is a piece of piss to knock up. You can even buy a pre-assembled tested kit these days. If you want to get real ambitious you could just use a micro controller that will take a pulse in and rotate the tray one division if you were going the PLC route. Your alternative I guess is limit switching or hall effect sensors with a fixed magnet motor...


----------



## Bandito

Yea, but its going to be heaps easier and less time consuming to hack something already made than fabricate a mechanism from scratch. 3D printing one would cost about $300. I think there is a labview stepper motor controller that would show up in labview as a preconfigured driver. Originally I was thinking a laboratory carousel - those tablet dispensers are cheaper though.

What you describe is Zwickels hop dispenser  . Will see if I can find it later tonight, no need to model it


----------



## Bandito

Looks like the automatic pet food dispensers use a screw drive (auger) to dispense dry food. I suppose it is the best - wont clog or jam. Could be home made with a large auger type drill bit, but would be easier and more reliable to just buy them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auger

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ergo-AUTO-PET-FEEDER-Automatic-Food-Dispenser-Medium-u_W0QQitemZ320393370552QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a98eedbb8

://http://cgi.ebay.com/Ergo-AUTO-PET-F...tem4a98eedbb8

Also called processpumps.com.au today for a quote on an Ismatec peristatic pump with either analogue or digital controls, 1 to 3 Lpm flow and 3/16" ID 1/4 OD tube. Havent recieved the quote yet.

Also realised the peristatic pump can be used to airate the wort just by leaving the valve to the fermenter open and leaving the pump on.


----------



## Bandito

Seems I inadvertantly finnished the first simplification phase and started the second last complication phase tonight. I have colored parts red that I have a good idea of what I want and where to get them. Also added some things like an overhead mixer, drill, and elaborated on the CIP system. 

I would like some guidance on what cleaning chemicals to use - The no brainer is starsan, still figuring out if I want the low foam version as foam would help sanitising the large fermenter. Then I need a cleaner and a steriliser. I think caustic does both? I dont think chlorine bleach is any good for stainless, and since the 40 kettle urn will be stainless, as well as a barbed T joiner, that is probably out. I dont think napisan is a steriliser so am I right in thinking that caustic is the best/only option?

I am planning on using IV bags (intra-veneous drips) with pinch valves on the outlets to dose the liquid cleaners. I figure it will be easier to have one type of valve to automate rather than more types that all require something different. I should look into the availability of IV bags in terms of the outlet tube sizes - I might need to order some smaller teflon tube for these and send a sample along with the other stuff off to the US to have the pinch valves calibrated to the durometer (squishiness) of the tube.

Still no word from the teflon tube supplier (ordered it 2 weeks ago), still no quote from processpumps.com.au

From the PFD, the most complex piece of equipment will be the mash/lauter tun - got heaps going into it!

I think the next thing will be to source a 40L stainless steel urn supplier, and find the previous post by the guy that mentioned what chiller to get and find a supplier of that. That should reduce the amount of things I need to think about down to a workable amount.

At the rate this is going I would expect it to be done in 4 months time! But something always rears it head to put the kybosh on a good thing - so 3 months extra seems a realistic estimate - if these suppliers get off their arses! 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_Q.pdf


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## ///

So this rig will make beer, but will it make good beer, reliably and consistently? These q's may have been asked, so i'll be breif.

* pH - mains water pH can oscillate widely during the day, how are you going to manage water salts to ensure the desired pH of each mash? 
* drop out the napisan altogether. If 2% hot caustic cant move it, neither will it. Also why are you flushing cleaners and sanitisers thru MT to FV. Straight to FV, with MT to only get a hot water flush. Lastly, caustic is sticky shit which affects wort pH, how do you account for washing all residue from FV?
* if multi-batch brewing, if the ferment is up and running no point adding more o2, how do you swtich off?
* got yourself a boil over detector for kettle, or low water in your HLT?

At the end of each batch how do you record paramets like FG, pH and temp, and manage the subsequent batches? We are making good beer, not 'beer' ...

Lastly, get yourself up to W'gong as soon as poss to see how 1200l of beer gets made ... will highlight alot.

Scotty


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## Bandito

Thanks Triple Forwardslash! Good questions/ Note: I edited my post after you posted it seems.

So will this rig make good bear? I suppose it depends on who programs the recipe  . I wont be limited to fast ferment regimes like the big boys, or their other commercial limitations. It should be just like any other home brew. It should be very consistant.

* I have a Reverse Osmosis water filter - I still have to speak to my filter guy psifilters.com.au to see how much a water remineraliser is, but thats how I am planning on taking out the tap water variable and reintroduce menerals for the yeast.

* Yea, thats what I was thinking too - caustic it is - but does that mean it needs to be powder? or can I use a stored concentrated liquid solution made from dissolved caustic gramules? Guess I have to see how concentrated a caustic solution can get, and wether IV bags can contain it. Also have to see if caustic granules will fit inside a 3/16" tube - as the pinch valves can be used for solids aparently.

Not exactly sure what you mean by FV but I assume you are reffering to the Fermenter Valve. As to why I am taking all cleaning and sanitising chemicals through all vessels is because it doesnt require anymore piping than the beer requires - even if the MT is not required to be sanitised etc - the cleaning solutions will be made up to volume in it and passed along to the kettle (where it can be heated), through the chiller (which wont have tap water running at the time), past the fermenter valve and out the end of the outlet tube. I also plan to use this to make me even small batches of cleaning chemicals prior to pitching and even for cleaning kegs etc (with a manual on/off for the pump.)

* I envisage the multi batch working by boiling all batches individually and sucessively pumping them into the fermenter until such a time that I airate and pitch.

* The HLT will have a float valve (FV-1) and also another pc controlled valve so the water inlet can be shut off while draining. Dont have a boil over detector on the kettle - it will be mounted over a chemical bund which is like a shallow bathtub with the drain of the bund going straight to the floor drain or pumped into the laundry sink with an automated pump.

At this point I am actually planning on taking readings manually in the begining while testing the system, and after that I will determine the alcohol contentby drinking it. Temp is easy to measure and log automatically, OG, FG, BG, pH etc are measurements that to be honest I have decided not to bother measuring. After all they are just numbers representing the current brew, they cant be changed for that brew so they are what they are - they could help diagnose issues or tweak recipes or flavours, but at this point am planning on intermittant initial manual measurements.

Where in the gong is that?


----------



## ///

* Yea, thats what I was thinking too - caustic it is - but does that mean it needs to be powder? 

Nah, go liquid. We use 50% diluted to 2%. powder or granules are awful to use.

* Not exactly sure what you mean by FV but I assume you are reffering to the Fermenter Valve. As to why I am taking all cleaning and sanitising chemicals through all vessels is because it doesnt require anymore piping than the beer requires - even if the MT is not required to be sanitised etc - the cleaning solutions will be made up to volume in it and passed along to the kettle (where it can be heated), through the chiller (which wont have tap water running at the time), past the fermenter valve and out the end of the outlet tube. I also plan to use this to make me even small batches of cleaning chemicals prior to pitching and even for cleaning kegs etc (with a manual on/off for the pump.)


FV is fermenting vessel. But I would not run sanitiser from MT>Kettle>FV, would do it the otherway. You'll get protein and tannin build up and microbes in the system, best to start with the FV for cleaner, sanitiser and such. 


But pH is critical, only way to get consistent beers. maybe a solution is an addition of pH 5.2 for each batch.

* Where in the gong is that?


Ralph Black Drive, just round the road from the North Gong. PM us when you can make it up.

Scotty


----------



## Bandito

/// said:


> FV is fermenting vessel. But I would not run sanitiser from MT>Kettle>FV, would do it the otherway. You'll get protein and tannin build up and microbes in the system, best to start with the FV for cleaner, sanitiser and such.



Well, I didnt think it was possible, but sometimes I even freak myself out! Think I have a starting point to what your saying. Making use of the overflow from the FV in such a way that it can be used as a cip input. It will get more of a workout tomorrow night.



/// said:


> Nah, go liquid. We use 50% diluted to 2%. powder or granules are awful to use.



Sounds good.



/// said:


> But pH is critical, only way to get consistent beers. maybe a solution is an addition of pH 5.2 for each batch.



Hmmm...... ...... ....... Well, I have been getting good consistant pH wort readings of 5.4 with plain RO water - A remineraliser might drop that a tiny bit. Since I am a home brewer I dont need an extremely consistant result, just relatively. I will think about it! I Really should get a water sample tested.




/// said:


> Ralph Black Drive, just round the road from the North Gong. PM us when you can make it up.



Thanks, will do. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_R.pdf


----------



## Bandito

The teflon tube arrived! guess what... Its hard walled! :angry: The 1/2" OD is hard as. They sent the wrong size of the smaller size - I ordered 1.4" OD 3/16" ID, they sent 5/16" OD 1/4" ID - so it is too large.

So pretty shattered right here. There are options to use it, and I can send back the smaller stuff for the proper size I ordered and just connect it to small lengths of flexable tube for the pinch valves, but I really wanted to use continuous lengths. So I spose I will use continuous lengths of the tube used in the pinch valves - silicon select or chemflex.

The teflon tube looks great though - so so slippery! feels like it has oil on it but it doesnt! I do have plenty of other projects and potential inventions I can use it in, so it wont go to waste, but still shattered none the less.


On another note - I got a motorised bubble machine from dick smith today, left it at work, but will see if it can be modified for use as a hop dispenser.


----------



## bum

Bandito said:


> I got a motorised bubble machine from dick smith today, left it at work, but will see if it can be modified for use as a hop dispenser.



I can just see the impotent Rage face many will be pulling at their monitors right now. FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-


----------



## Bandito

Why is that? What is that?

It looks like the motor is heavily geared so will hopefully turn slow, if not slow enough, voltage can be reduced. Might allow use as a ferris wheel type of arrangement where buckets are attached and are flipped over to release the contents. Not sure, but cant hurt to try.
Its the only thing I have found in local shops so far that rotates with a motor. So with a position sensor, it might be doable - only one way to find out.
The system budget does not include prototypes and tests. So far only spent about $103 at bunnings, $23 on the bubble machine, and $598 on the teflon! 

Hmmm, this thick stuff might just be hard enough and slippery enough to use in a homemade peristatic pump as the rollers. 

Actually, I just realised that all is not lost! the larger tube that I was always planning on using as the overflows cost the bulk of the price - $375, and there is no need for it to be soft walled or have pinch valves on it. I wanted teflon for these overflows for its superior slipperyness to aid in cleaning - dont want mould or bugs to be able to adhear to it. Which means the pdf was wrong.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Which means the pdf was wrong.




phew, that's a relief, i was awake half the night worrying about that..


----------



## paulwolf350

yardy said:


> phew, that's a relief, i was awake half the night worrying about that..



Lick his balls, bitch



not allowed to be negative,


or constructive, of informative, he is a designer, mate.


----------



## yardy

paulwolf350 said:


> Lick his balls, bitch
> 
> 
> 
> not allowed to be negative,
> 
> 
> or constructive, of informative, he is a designer, mate.




nah, you lick 'em..

i checked the whole sig and realised he's hardcore..


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> phew, that's a relief, i was awake half the night worrying about that..




:lol: I do lay awake at night thinking about this stuff - I try not to, and its not for long, but it is the last thing I think about before falling asleep, and the first thing I think about during the morning coffee. 

At the rate it is going, it looks like it will be finnished before the 7 month deadline - but something always pops up to put the kybosh on projects at the worst time, so allowing for that, the project is going to schedule (still have to make a schedule). It seems like the part that could put a mojor dent in it is the time it takes to get quotes and procure and have parts delivered - it took 2 and a half weeks to get the teflon tube, I asked for a quote from processpumps.com.au on tuesday, reminded them on thursday that I was still waiting, they said I would have the quote within an hour, and here I am on friday night still waiting - do these companies actually make a living selling stuff? If a keen buyer cant even get a quote how do they survive?

Looks like this weekends project is to reasearch the valves for the MLT - it is going to be HARDCORE!


Sorry paul, perhaps I should have asked nicely. :lol: Its a joke dude, dont take it to hart. I grew up around people that would say that sort of thing and much worse all the time, its really not that big of a deal. In any other situation I would say grow some balls, but I wont say that as it may offend some of the lesser hardened individuals. I thought this was a beer forumn, not a wine forumn - so I didnt think it would be taken so seriously! :lol:


----------



## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> Sorry paul, perhaps I should have asked nicely. :lol: Its a joke dude, dont take it to hart. I grew up around people that would say that sort of thing and much worse all the time, its really not that big of a deal. In any other situation I would say grow some balls, but I wont say that as it may offend some of the lesser hardened individuals. I thought this was a beer forumn, not a wine forumn - so I didnt think it would be taken so seriously! :lol:




Go Hard mate, I am all good. If I worried about what people thought, I would of necked myself years ago. 


This is the best thread ever!

Paul


----------



## Bandito

That right, most of my posts are 'designed' to provoke a laugh! They usually involve some sort of quote from tv (the 'I told you I'm hardcore' quote in my sig is a modified quote from the movie Crank, where the haitian cab driver said "I told you, It hardcore" but my humour is a fair way off centre, and hardly anyone I know gets it anymore than 1% of the time. The second is a modified quote from southpark, the third is from Oddesy 5, and the last is from seinfield.


----------



## bigbird

Holy crap Batemans Bay automated brewing..... thats awesome! 
Go fishin in the mornin, beer in fermenter when you get home. 

Nothin left to do but roll down to the Bayview for a few beers!


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## Bandito

Thats the idea! who would want to spend all day at home brewing when you can be out trying to catch fish! Out in the great outdoors, sun on the face, dolphins and whales swimming past (and they do regulary), penguines trying to take your bait (well, just one - but he is my arch nemesis), wonderful views, great weather, lobster pot in the shallows, and drinking homebrew at the same time (well, the penguine only comes past at 3:30pm and I have always managed to get the bait out of the water before it got snared. :super: If there is a better lifestyle it would be owning a strip club - but thats already on the list! 

Actually, I have been looking for a name for my brewery, started with 'Bad Ass brewery Incorporated', then thought of 'Australian National Brewery' (but that is a bit pompass). I got to say that 'Batemans Bay Automated Brewery' is the best so far! Nice! I can use that, yea? 

Favorite fishing spot that isnt insanely dangerous: Well, only nearly got washed off once :unsure:


----------



## bum

Bandito said:


> What is that?


----------



## Bandito

I still dont understand?


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## bum




----------



## Bandito

Great pics Bum!

Is this it? I call it Scream - did it in '94 but had it scanned a few years ago.


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## Bandito

Also offering a $3000 reward for my stolen sculpture artwork. Was stolen from Box Hill Senior Secondary Colledge art exhibition in victoria on around 97/98. 3 grand offered for return - no questions asked. It took 9 months to sculpt - 6 months was spent making the mouth so black that no light could escape - was like staring into a black hole - even used some black powder to get the effect. The outer skin is the same dotted pattern as the above picture, it was made with a mouth atomiser which makes small dots of paint and is powered by ones breath. 

Just to freak youz out, heres a closeup of the dots on my scream


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## JonnyAnchovy

This is one of the best value threads on AHB. It's gone from drama to completely surreal just a few posts.


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## Bandito

Sweet Jonny!

Of course, having more time to spend on other hobbies with copious amounts of brew can lead to its own problems. Like this little fishing accident that occured late one night while preparing for the next day. Looked down only to see this. So this answers the questions that asked 'how will you burn yourself on brewday?'

Was too painful to push through that night and the next day. Ended up going to the local hospital and getting a local anestitic. The doctor wanted to take it out but I figured it would be good practise, so I insisted that I push it through and take it out myself - even brought my own pliers with me!. Havent tied fishing hooks while drinking since!


----------



## joebejeckel

Great thread. Mate i really hope you get this thing going as one day i would like to invest in one so i can do another brew on the sly from SWMBO, maybe at Dads house, shhhh.


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## Hogshead

Is this Bandito's Facebook?


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## Bandito

Quote came through for the peristatic pump - glad I was sitting down - $5000 for the drive and $1770 for the pump head! :blink: 
Will be trolling ebay me thinks. :unsure: 

View attachment ismatec_pump.pdf


----------



## Bandito

Always wanted to make a peristatic pump from scratch. Started designing one about 15 years ago, I'm starting again now - see if I can get a bodgy prototype done this weekend.


----------



## Bandito

So an update. I have had the last week off designing the system. I thought I could do a peristaltic pump desing but oh, too much work! I am now thinking of using a ross peristaltic pump and bypassing the 240V to 24V with my own 24V DC flow control. An idea anyway.

I just got off the phone to biochemfluidics in the US and requested a quote for 11 pinch valves and 50 foot (shitloads) of tubing. I plan on ordering it early next week if the quote is reasonable.

I also bought 7 kegs, and soon realised that the smaller diameter teflon tube I got sent (which the supplier admitted was the wrong size) is usable for beer and/or gas line in a keg system. Frekin sweet! teflon kegging system! cant go past that!


----------



## pokolbinguy

Bandito said:


> So an update. I have had the last week off designing the system.



I thought the whole reason for building an auto brewery was because you don't have time to brew??? It seems you have lots of time on your hands??

Anyway still following in interest. Can't wait to see what you come up with in the end.


----------



## Bandito

Perhaps I didnt explain it properly, I only had the last week off designing the brewing system, but I still worked - I wasnt on holliday  

Another thought, I got this wowi robot a few years back and partially took it apart a couple of years back. I'm trying to think of how I can use it to help me brew - could be a good helping hand. 

He is pictured with the teflon tubes


----------



## goomboogo

That teflon tube looks just like beer line.


----------



## Bandito

Doesnt it! in this pic, the beer line is on the left - the teflon are the two tubes on the right. I just did a burn test on them and the beer line burnt - the teflon did not - will take a video and upload it soonish. Burnt my fingers from the burning beerline! dont try this at home!


----------



## Bandito

The video I took is 94mb over the 300mb photobucket limit. All it really shows is the beer line burning me. Now I will spend the rest of the night with my fingers in a coffee mug with frozen peas, beans or corn to keep it from killing - should take a codine tablet or two. At least I now know the beer line is not teflon! 

Edit: just had 3 x 10mg codine tablets (cant find the 30mg ones), so I wont be posting again today - if I do - ignore it! Fingers hurt hardcore! Beer and codine never a good mix!


----------



## Bandito

DrinkBeer said:


> How will you burn yourself on brewday?
> 
> DrinkBeer


----------



## Bandito

Just ordered 11 pinch valves and 15M of silicon tubing - all 1/4" ID 3/8" OD. Thats the Second major purchase for the project  Almost $1700 worth! :huh: It'll be worth it though.Got 3 more valves than I need too, so I should have spares or the ability to expand. Aussie supplier quoted almost twice as much - stuff that!

Looking at these very sexy peristaltic pumps too. Waiting for a quote. http://www.welco.net/wp10a_e.html They look like they would be quite cheap. Very simple design.


----------



## Pete2501

Love your work Bandito. Keep it coming.


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## rwmingis

Bandito said:


> Aussie supplier quoted almost twice as much - stuff that!



I can appreciate that Bandito, I had an Aussie supplier quote me $430 for a paddle wheel flow sensor. I found the exact same one in the UK for $140. We get sooooo ripped off over here sometimes, it _really_ pays to shop around.

Shame that money is going overseas though...


----------



## Bandito

Just worked it out properly, the model I got a quote on is AU$100 each, and I was quoted AU$188.30 plus GST (=207 inc gst). Delivery from US is US$89.95, but I got a quote for 11 so its not as if they added the cost of delivery to just one part - but it looks like it! Thats just greed! And they would get a 20% wholesale discount I would expect.

I ordered:
5 x normally closed valves https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...;idCategory=261
6 x normally open valves https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...;idCategory=269
1 x 50 foot (15m) silicon tube https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...;idCategory=430
20 x mounting clips https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...;idCategory=420


----------



## Doogiechap

Brewing Bob said:


> I can appreciate that Bandito, I had an Aussie supplier quote me $430 for a paddle wheel flow sensor. I found the exact same one in the UK for $140. We get sooooo ripped off over here sometimes, it _really_ pays to shop around.
> 
> Shame that money is going overseas though...



I just purchased 8 John Guest in line Check Valves for $93 direct from the States. The supplier had them for $7 US but no international Shipping so opted to use http://www.priceusa.com.au/ who purchase on your behalf in the States and then ship OS. You can see they obviously have a margin but the cost was still less than half of the typical retail price here.......


----------



## Phoney

Im on the lookout for a small motorized tank agitator / vertical mixer along the lines of one of these, for a consistant stir of the mash. Ive gotten about half a dozen quotes from Australian engineering firms who specialize in these sorts of things, im looking at $600 - $1000.

Ive also looked at buying the die cast SS mixing shaft, gear motor, housing etc seperately and building it myself and that works out at around $300 minimum..








Im now looking for overseas suppliers who im certain could do one for a fraction of the price, before I go down the uncertain the DIY road..

Any ideas?


----------



## Bandito

I only looked quite briefely a few weeks ago, the lowest price I have seen on the net was about US$600. I still have a lot of searching to do. I was considering finding a highly geared drill, and mounting it with a drill press fitting. Then using the 'painted red' paint stirrer from bunnings (doesnt look too bad - some holes in the welds though). 

Just had a thought though. Perhaps a valve actuator could be used to drive the stirrer. As in - one that can continuously turn. In another thread, Brewing Bob suggested a belimo actuator for automating a valve - if these can turn continuously, it may be the go - at least for my purposes. I was just looking at the results of a search for butterfly valves. I got this, which I thought would be good for a false bottom of my MLT and Kettle, but then realised that it is made with 3 layers, so would trap bugs. These also use belimo actuators/(http://www.nuaire.com/download/brochure/airevalv_butterfly_valves.pdf)

Ebay search for Balimo actuators: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=belimo+ac...t=0&bkBtn=1 
Another search would be valve actuators or perhaps continuous valve actuators.


----------



## BjornJ

Bandito, 
have read with interest your quest for coming up with the project of a life time.
Keep the posts coming, I hope you don't stop posting because some people are saying it will not work.
Will be interesting to see the end result, either way!



phoneyhuh,
see this link that may give you ideas for making something out of an old washing machine motor?

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...1265&st=300 

They are using a washing machine motor to run a grain mill as it has high power and low turning speed,




(Graham Sanders is another very interesting poster, seems to be making all kind of stuff  )

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## Bandito

Thanks BjornJ, if the suppliers would stop taking half a lifetime to get me prices it might actually get done on time 



Bandito said:


> Looking at these very sexy peristaltic pumps too. Waiting for a quote. http://www.welco.net/wp10a_e.html They look like they would be quite cheap. Very simple design.



Finally got a price for these, they now have a harder base which makes them usable for more types of tubing US$100- plus postage. Oh yea! I'll get 3.


----------



## Bandito

Bandito said:


> Finally got a price for these, they now have a harder base which makes them usable for more types of tubing US$100- plus postage. Oh yea! I'll get 3.



Getting 2.

I am actually quite freaked out atm. I had a debt from my credit card last week for AU$230, but cant remember making a purchase :blink: I think I might have bought a automatic pet food dispenser or two? Damn you alcomehol! Whatever I bought, I hope it was automated brewing related!


----------



## Frank

phoneyhuh said:


> Im on the lookout for a small motorized tank agitator / vertical mixer along the lines of one of these, for a consistant stir of the mash. Ive gotten about half a dozen quotes from Australian engineering firms who specialize in these sorts of things, im looking at $600 - $1000.
> 
> Ive also looked at buying the die cast SS mixing shaft, gear motor, housing etc seperately and building it myself and that works out at around $300 minimum..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im now looking for overseas suppliers who im certain could do one for a fraction of the price, before I go down the uncertain the DIY road..
> 
> Any ideas?


Try googling 'Planetary Mixer' or good old trusty 'Kenwood Chef'. You will be able to control the speed as well.


----------



## Bandito

Well, its the weekend again, and so time for an update/

Two peristaltic pumps are currently on a plane from japan to australia. I expect to recieve them by tuesday. They are a non-commercial release "for evaluation only", so in that spirit, I will post a review of them. The main things I will cover are head height,flow rate and over volting capabilities (to get faster flow rates). I would like to test some silicon tube in them, but dont have any as yet. I plan to run one to anhilation. At US$100 these are the cheapest sanitary pumps around. Will post in the gear and equipment thread.

My eleven pinch valves are due to be shipped from the US next week, so hopefully a week later I will have them! ooooo I cant wait! My desktop background is an old image of their previous products - I consider it sanitary valve porn - :blink: Pic attached.

As has been the case for a long time, the issue of getting the grist out of the MLT and the hops out of the kettle is still a major issue. Based on my volume calculations of diameter versus height, I require 12 inch diameter and at least 30cm height for both the MLT and kettle - the issue is that butterfly valves of this size are very expensive! The best I have found are here: http://cgi.ebay.com/12-Bray-PTFE-150-HSI-A...=item1c0c0e62c6 Pic attached - aparentley teflon seat and wafer. Cant afford four of those at the moment, so will send an expression of interest. The idea is that both the MLT and kettle will have two of them above one another, the top one will be drilled with small holes to make a false bottom, or have large chuncks cut out and an actual false bottom screwed in. The bottom one will be the actual seal. I plan to connect the top one to the bottom internally, thus reducing the need for more than one actuator per vessel.

The actuator is still up in the air - I guess a balimo wont be strong enough, and the proper ones are hugely expensive (~1k+)

Thats the state of the brewery design at the moment.


----------



## Bandito

Just got off the phone to the supplier of the teflon coated butterfly valves pictured above. He can do 4 of them for US$350 each. He will get back to me with shipping cost and specs so I can also look for cheap shipping too. I was considering trying to have a dual MLT and Kettle, but doubt it would work with an element in the MLT.

I recieved the two perstaltic pumps yesterday - got to find a variable 24 volt dc supply and get the connection to the pinch valve tubing sorted. Speaking of which, the pinch valves should be shipped any minute.


----------



## Bandito

Well, if I can get the delivery of these 4 butterfly valves down to about $300 I might be able to order them next week. https://www.ipsparcel.com/ gave a rough price for 2 x 50 Lbs of US$355. ups.com gave US$600 for the same weight. They are likely to weigh about 25 Lbs each, and the delivery time is a week - waiting on the specs of the valves. Anyone know of a cheap international courier?

I am recalculating the volume of the vessels on a daily basis - I think the mash efficiency will be a major factor. If I can get good efficiency, the grain bill will go down, but the required volume of the MLT will as well. An option to increase vessel volume might be to make the kettle slightly conical to increase the boil volume without increasing the height. I have read that smaller mash volumes usually result in higher efficiency. Now that I have decided on 12" valves for the bottom of the MLT and Kettle, the height of them is the variable. Mabee a similar concept is possible for the MLT, but with a much higher angle on the conical walls. I have worked with engineers that used a structural analysis program called strand to design conical vessels - I will have to send my designs to them to assess in return for some beer. I'll give beerbelly a call soon to get a quote for the MLT, Kettle and fermenter.

I also need to look at the specs of the valves construction to find out if the wafer (i think it is called that) is made of solid steel or sheets of steel. I need to cut out large portions of the moving wafer of the top butterfly valve to install false bottoms, and this will require the exposed cut edges to be sealed. This would be difficult as vertually nothing will stick to teflon, and if it is constructed with multiple layers of steel sheet, there is a possibility of wort festering in the spaces if unsealed.

A 12" (305mm) diameter vessel 550mm high has a volume of 40L 

It seems I am now into the procurement (buying) phase, and will be for the next couple of months. I have been saving since I started this project 2.5 months ago, and now every cent I can scrape together will be spent on it. (I had to think hard today about wether to buy a regulator and get a CO2 bottle tomorrow to carb my first keg, but I figure I have to. Will even be converting my fermentation fridge to a keggerator) on the weekend.


----------



## rwmingis

I just can't believe you are getting teflon coated DN300 valves at 350 bucks each, that sounds like a steal.

If you can get around it, you are WAY better off not trimming the butterfly valve.

As for your kettle size vs mash efficiency, I reckon you are getting a bit over technical here. You should be generous with the freeboard incase you get a number wrong or want to increase capacity in the future. I am an industrial engineer, and 9 times out of 10 I've saved myself by oversizing a system or component.

"When in doubt, build it stout"


----------



## Bandito

Yea, aye! I told my boss today, and he jumped back a couple of feet before saying What the hell? They're going to be hugely expensive! 
They will turn out to be about $450 with postage and exchange rate, but that is still about 1/4 of what I would have expected. I cant figure out any other way to get a false bottom in the top valve disk, so I think a chop and try to seal will have to do. It might be possible to attach a round false bottom to the two outer edges of the main valve, and install an axel for it, but I dont think it would be guaranteed - I might try it though, wouldnt be a bad thing to have 2 spare 12" valves handy!

I will make it as big as I can. I just realised today that I can use stainless pipe for the MLT and Kettle bodys, and just have ANSI flanges welded on (I think thats what they are called - gota get up to scratch on this valve lingo). Here are the specs for these valves I got this morning:

FIG: ANSI 150
CWP: 150 PSI
BODY: 396 
STEM: 17-4
DISC: PTFE 

Center to center (bolt to bolt): 17"
3 1/16" (body thickness?) 

My account was debited today for the pinch valves, that means they are about to be shipped - theres a good chance I will have them by next friday or early the next week! So exciting! They debited over $200 less than I expected - I guess I got the discount I asked for! Ask for a discount and you shall recieve. << thats going in this weeks sig.


----------



## Bandito

Damn Bob! you got me really thinking about whether I could make do with just one valve per vessel. I think it could work, but have been changing my mind every 12 hours for days. So I did what I always do when I cant make up my mind - I tossed a 20c coin - tails was 2 valves total, heads was 4 valves total (2 valves in each vessel (one as a main wort tight valve, the other modified to be a false bottom)).

It came up tails - so I will order just 2 valves total, and replace the upper valve with a fabricated false bottom - joined at two points to the main valve with loose bolts, and pivoted in the centre by an axel.

I used the same coin deciding process to decide on the pinch valve size and the peristaltic valve size - 20c coins seem to produce correct results  . 

Thanks for helping me save a shitload Bob! Infact, that means I can order two of these in the morning! Yeeha!


----------



## Bandito

Im not sure what I have got myself into with these butterfly valves - I found the specs of them, they are series 23 and a whopping 53Kg each!, and thats not including the gear actuator on top. Looks like it could be actuated with an electric balimo type actuator instead of the wheel.

The issue now, is that the shipping weight is being quoted as 350LB = 159Kg, and is US$600 to sydney airport only (have to get a quote for it to get to me). :blink: Not a bad price to fly 159Kg from the US to Aus! with 6-8 day delivery time.

I guess the brew stand will need a crane monorail on it too!

series 23 butterfly valve: http://www.bray.com/docs/Brochures/22.pdf
series 4 gear actuator : http://www.bray.com/docs/Brochures/manualop.pdf
similar series 20/21 PTFE coated disk http://www.bray.com/docs/brochures/B-1007_...TFE_2007-08.pdf


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## Bandito

The pinch valves arrived, but minus the 15m of silicon select tubing :angry: . I guess thats why it was cheaper than expected, will be asking for free shipping on the tube. 

The pic contains everything I have got so far, the 6 nornally open ones on the left, and the 5 normally closed ones on the right. To the far left are the two peristaltic pumps that I havent tried yet. 20 clips for the pinch valves are at the back. It seems that just by chance, the peristaltic tube is the same outside diameter as the tubing for the pinch valves. If luck is on my side they will have the same wall thickness, and I can use silicon in the pump too. Since these pumps have a harder base and are still in testing, the harder wall of silicon may work. The tubing I will be using though, is silicon select, not sure if it is different, but if it is soft enough for the valves, it should be soft enough for the pumps.

On the butterfly valve side, I called tycoflowcontrol.com.au today for a rough quote, and got $600 each for 300mm diameter, stainless steel disk and stem, and an EPDM (rubber) seat. Double that for teflon coated. Since I dont really want any rubber in contact with the mash or boiling wort, I'll go with the teflon coated ones from the US for half the cost.


----------



## stew.w

how much are you thinking this project is going to cost?


----------



## Bandito

at the moment, it looks like 6K - only twice the original estimate :blink: 

Just having a closer look at the area of open tube in the normally open type, and er the tube is only opening like 1mm! Dont know what's with that! I expected them to be half bore - like half the internal diameter. The normally closed have only a tiny bit more. Will be finding out that the F is up with that!

Quite freaked out - wrong sized tube? wouldnt be the first time!. Incorrect fabrication? Should have an answer by morning.


----------



## Bandito

Found a refference on the biochem site mentioning "FULL BORE" So I have a leg to stand on, and if it comes down to it, I'll just have to make my own.


----------



## praxis178

Bandito said:


> Found a refference on the biochem site mentioning "FULL BORE" So I have a leg to stand on, and if it comes down to it, I'll just have to make my own.



Those solenoids may require energizing to be in the normally open state, so while sitting there in your hand un-powered the bias magnet/spring will pull/push* the plunger to a neutral position, hence the 1mm gap etc. *push if the bias is spring powered.


----------



## Bandito

Thomas J. said:


> Those solenoids may require energizing to be in the normally open state, so while sitting there in your hand un-powered the bias magnet/spring will pull/push* the plunger to a neutral position, hence the 1mm gap etc. *push if the bias is spring powered.




Thats the response I hope to get. I have tried a 9V battery on the normally open one in reverse polarity, but not 12V. The normally closed one needed 12V to actuate open, but got a sililar bore. I have pushed it as far as she'll go sir, I can not push it anymore.


----------



## cooperplace

Bandito said:


> Thats the response I hope to get. I have tried a 9V battery on the normally open one in reverse polarity, but not 12V. The normally closed one needed 12V to actuate open, but got a sililar bore. I have pushed it as far as she'll go sir, I can not push it anymore.




HI Bandito,

Glad to see this is still happening. Don't take too much notice of the people who tell you that you MUST do it their way! I don't think it really matters whether this project goes to fruition, we can all learn learn something along the way. Good luck.


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## Bandito

It would seem thats all they open. I'll put down a mash and empty a fermenter to see if the particals pass, but I guess I'm spending the long weekend designing my own. It might just be a matter of ensuring the false bottom drill size is less, and that the false bottom is sealed at its edge with teflon or silicon tube.


----------



## komodo

http://www.metalmesh.com.au/cfm/index.cfm?...on=cfm/home.cfm Look here for suitable mesh for your false bottom
They have some with 0.5, 0.8 and 1mm holes which might filter your grain bed enough?


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Komodo :beer: the 0.5mm looks good, thats the bore of the normally closed version. with a bit of stiffening, it could work. I got a couple of handi pales today, so I will drill them out with a 0.5mm bit, and see if I get any flow!

Honestly though, I am dissapointed with this issue, and will design a full bore pinch valve for 1/2" silicon. It wil be a geared motor with a threaded shaft that a winged nut travels up and down, the nut will have a round knife blade attached (technical term) that will come down to pinch the tube. This will be housed in a machined bottom which will have 3 basic holes, one for the tube to go through, one to unconstrict the pinched part of the tube so it sits flat, and a hole to house the round nut with cutouts for the wings so it can go up and down without turning. Simple! Very similar to these ones, in fact I cant believe how similar they are in construction to how I thought they would be. There will also need to be a spring - probably between the nut and the knife for pressure adjustment, and metal contacts for cutoff switching.

There is still plenty of time in the schedule to design these from scratch and have them made  

I think these stock ones could work, but unless I see it working well, I doubt I will be happy with it - and since this will be making beer for me for the rest of my life, I want to be completely happy with it.

I will definetely use these stock ones for the caustic and starsan dosing and strike water dosing from the HLT, and probably for co2 release - so at the worst case, I may have 7 spare. Mabee I could implement the direct fermenter cleaning suggested by /// 

Quite motivated atm, going to start modeling it in cad now.


----------



## yardy

is all this still being built in the laundry ?


----------



## Bandito

Yep.

home brew design so far


----------



## Bandito

Just done an initial test on the peristaltic pump, and have uploaded a video here: 

 

The album is here:http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/alienbandit/beer2/ and am uploading anotherone at the moment.

It is just me narating pumping a brew out of a fermenter into sodastream bottles, but so far these pumps seem good. I may be the first to use silicon tubing in it, and I should mention that I got two of them for free because they have not been tested but may be suitable for use with harder tube than is currently available as stock. I did ask if I could get more for the rest of ahb'eers, but not so lucky.

This is just a little sample before I make a review thread when I have sufficient data to do so. 

I am currently only running it at 12 volts, but it is rated at 24 Volts, so the pumping rate will increase dramatically when I get a proper power supply.

What amazes me is that the pinch valve tubing fits into the pump, it runs, but not sure if it is the same wall thinkness yet.

Next on the books is a head height test. These are the ones I intend to use in my system.


----------



## Bandito

Been a very eventful day. I dismantled both types of pinch valves and have managed to increase the bore to what should be a usable amount! did some flow tests (just marked a low point about 1cm above the outlet in a 5L handi pail, then poured in 3L of water, and let gravity take it out):

Normally closed valve:
Stock bore: ~0.8mm
Modified bore: ~1.6mm
Stock flow for 3L: 24m46s
Modified flow for 3L:2m55s
Modification status: Still a but fiddley, sometimes doesnt actuate at 12 Volts due to the spring being too tight, will have to try higher actuation voltages or reduce bore so the spring is looser.

Normally open valve:
Stock bore: ~0.6mm
Modified bore: 2.0mm
Stock flow for 3L: not tested
Modified flow for 3L: 2m15s
Modification status: Satisfied - actuates at any setting and as low as 9Volts, and remains actuated and quite cool down to 3V (so far)

Full tube bore:6.35mm (1/4")
Full tube flow for 3L: 2m09s


Also using a bulldog clip as a manual pinch valve - it needs a couple of bent copper plates to smooth out the gaps, and a latch to keep it open when required, but I think it would make a very nice manual pinch valve for the fermenter airlock while crash chilling, and for manual systems too - anyone using one?

Pic is of an upside down normally open type showing the bottom unscrewed, the top is also unscrewed. 
Modified on the left, stock setup on the right :beerbang:


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> It is just me narating pumping a brew out of a fermenter into sodastream bottles, but so far these pumps seem good. I may be the first to use silicon tubing in it, and I should mention that I got two of them for free because they have not been tested but may be suitable for use with harder tube than is currently available as stock. I did ask if I could get more for the rest of ahb'eers, but not so lucky.



Mate,

We have tried to tell you that it has all been done before - you just need to look at the published literature  

Silicone would have to be THE most common tubing used with Peristatic pumps.

We all wish you well, but I have to wonder - $6,000 spent and not a drop of beer to show for it. 

Man, where are your priorities !


----------



## Bandito

Sorry Bigfridge, I dont mean any disrespect, but you have misinterpreted everything you mentioned in your post.


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito, Im wondering how much wort or beer youd like to pump with that tiny little rollerpump.
What is that pump for?

I was searching the thread again, but couldnt find the right answer.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bandito

Hey Zwickle, I am aiming for 600mL per minute. I hope to only use one to suck boiled wort through a chiller , through the pump and pump it into the fermenter - 3 batches of 20L at a time. But I might be tempted to use the other one in a herms.

The documentation I have says that at the 12V that I was using it in the video, it should be doing just over 100rpm, and pumping 3mL per revolution, so 300ml per minute. But at the rated 24V that it is supposed to run at, it should do 225rpm, which is 675mL per minute. Some overvolting might increase that, but would result in a blown motor at some voltage.
Currently, only pharmed tubing is available for the model - until I prove at silicon is better  and they add it as another option.

PFD attached - is quite hard to find. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_T.pdf


----------



## Zwickel

Bandito said:


> Hey Zwickle, I am aiming for 600mL per minute. I hope to only use one to suck boiled wort through a chiller , through the pump and pump it into the fermenter - 3 batches of 20L at a time.
> 
> The documentation I have says that at the 12V that I was using it in the video, it should be doing just over 100rpm, and pumping 3mL per revolution, so 300ml per minute. But at the rated 24V that it is supposed to run at, but should do 225rpm, which is 675mL per minute. Some overvolting might increase that, but would result in a blown motor at some voltage.
> Currently, only pharmed tubing is available for the model - until I prove at silicon is better  and they add it as another option.
> 
> PFD attached - is quite hard to find.



Sorry Bandito, your calculation is not right.

the increase of pumpvolume is not linear to the revolutions.
If youre going to speed up the pump, the soft silicon tube will not be able to suck the desired volume, it even will collapse at a certain negative pressure (inlet).
So you may not be able to speed up the pump significantly, anyway not linear.

honestly, 600ml/h is a PITA, would take 100min for my 60l batch.

Mate, Im knowing what Im talking about, Im using roller pumps as well....everyday:

Thats my equipment, each rollerpump pumps up to 8liter/h


----------



## Bandito

Thanks for the heads up. So its a good thing that although, based on the documentation, I might expect to get 675mL per minute, that I am still only aiming for 600mL per minute. And since I am only planning on doing 20L batches, that would take 22 minutes per batch, then a few hours later another 20L, etc. The flow rate is based on the cooling ability of a plate chiller or similar, the time it takes doesnt really bother me, as, after extensive testing, I will be fishing, sleeping working or watching TV while its doing it.

Dude! what is that in the pic? and are those rotary pumps? As opposed to peristaltic? Edit: just had another look, and they do seem to be peristaltic as the tube doesnt coil around 360deg, and so requires two rollers instead of one - thats how I understand it anyway.

Please do tell what that instrument is - best guess is HPLC, some sort of LC? I'm only chemical, must be bio? 

Yea, the tube collapsing under nagative pressure was really worrying me with the tiny stock bore of the pinch valves, now that they are more open I am very relieved, but it still requires some actual brew condition testing - will be emptying some dregs from a nochill cube into the above mentioned 5L pail, as well as some sediment, and after testing that, I might make a 5L bucket in a bucket brew. Also plan to make an impromptu herms using a kitchen kettle with teflon tube coiled up in it, a cake mixer as a stirrer, peri pump, and manual temp control!


----------



## MHB

Teflon has (IIRC) one of the worst rates of thermal transfer known, wouldnt be much use as a heat exchanger coil, stainless or copper would be much better.

Mark


----------



## Bandito

Yea, but its all I have atm, and after pumping boiling water through it last night - I know it gets very frickin hot! Its just an impromptu dry run so to speak - just to get a feel or various elements - tomorow nights post should be a minimashers dream - or nightmare.

So while we are on the topic of peristaltic pumps and silicon, I have a question regarding lubricants :unsure: . The stock pharmed tubing came lubricated, but since I have swapped it out for silicon, what lubricant should I use? Since the tubing is silicon I guess it should not be petrolium based, and so I guess that er.. water based 'four seasons' condom lubricant is acceptable?


----------



## MHB

Well there are lots of silicone greases out there, other places to find top end grease are a good bike shop or a fishing tackle store, Im pretty sure I have some 6 mm Nulon Peristaltic Pump line kicking around, Ill have a look in the morning.

Just checked up on PTFE thermal conductance Cu 401, Stainless 12-45, glass 1.1, Cement 0.29, PTFE 0.25, it really isnt very good.

M


----------



## Bandito

Thanks for that mark, I do need some proper lube for long term testing. Nulon you say, might have to give it a go! 1/16" wall? I'll call next week.

Yea, it may not do much at all, but at 5L that I may or may not ferment, its more about the process of testing the pumping warm wort through the pump. Hope to also test my theory that wort gravity effects capacitance between two plates on opposite sides of a teflon tube - should also test on a silicon tube I spose.


----------



## goomboogo

Bandito said:


> Please do tell what that instrument is - best guess is HPLC, some sort of LC? I'm only chemical, must be bio?
> 
> 
> Coronary by-pass.


----------



## Bandito

Wow! thats mad!

So I hooked up a very dodgy herms today. Been watching it run for the past few hours just with water in it. It seems to max out at about 60C or so with boiling the kettle - I mean herms every 1/2 hour or so. I think the tubing is a major source of heat loss, so I'll try insulating it a bit tomorrow and put the kettle on much more often, then might do a tiny test mash.

I was a bit worried about the pump motor temp, but upped the voltage from 9 to 13 Volts to reduce motor fatigue, and it seems to stabilise at about 55C at a guess. The modified normally open pinch valve maintains a closed state at 3 Volts and remains just warm, which is great.

The thousand or so 2mm holes in the bucket took a while to drill! Came up nice I think!

The teflon tube is coming in very handy, to join the silicon to the buckets, I drilled a 10mm hole, put the silicon tube through from the inside of the bucket, then pushed a short piece of the hardwalled teflon into the end and then pulled it through. The resulting compsite silicon/teflon tube makes a tight seal between the outer silicon and bucket wall, and the inner teflon provides the hardness to fix it in place without collapsing.

The teflon tube in the herms is far from ideal, but it is transferring heat nonetheless - about 10C difference with the low flow through - its just a test, although, who knows, perhaps a 1/32 wall thickness might be an idea. 

The capacitance reading a quite unstabe at the moment, not sure why yet. But the capacitance of the two enameled wires sticky-taped to either side of a teflon tube showed that the capacitance of water increases with temperature. Next to see if wort concentration effects it too. Inductance readings with a cro didnt pan out, I need an inductance meter.


----------



## yardy

seriously, for the $6K you've spent you would be getting close to buying a system similar to this one or have had a good turnkey system built for you





it's all about the *beer* mate, not reinventing the wheel  

cheers


----------



## rwmingis

yardy said:


> it's all about the *beer* mate, not reinventing the wheel



Reinventing the wheel, probably, but this is Bandito's little toy. I reckon something good will come out of all of this for some of us. We're getting free R&D experience really.

Ie, I want one of them peri pumps for my cold side, ie starting siphons in a clean manner, etc.

Where'd you get them again?


----------



## paulwolf350

yardy said:


> seriously, for the $6K you've spent you would be getting close to buying a system similar to this one or have had a good turnkey system built for you
> 
> View attachment 36933
> 
> 
> it's all about the *beer* mate, not reinventing the wheel
> 
> cheers




View attachment brewboy.htm


one of these is $4700, add $1500 for automation, and you are where bandito at now. Reinventing the wheel may be interesting, but not very cost effective

Paul


----------



## Zizzle

Brewing Bob said:


> I reckon something good will come out of all of this for some of us. We're getting free R&D experience really.



But all of this stuff has been done. It doesn't need R&D.


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> seriously, for the $6K you've spent you would be getting close to buying a system similar to this one or have had a good turnkey system built for you
> 
> View attachment 36933
> 
> 
> it's all about the *beer* mate, not reinventing the wheel
> 
> cheers





paulwolf350 said:


> View attachment 36934
> 
> 
> one of these is $4700, add $1500 for automation, and you are where bandito at now. Reinventing the wheel may be interesting, but not very cost effective
> 
> Paul



Once again guys please stop spreading misinformation - one person says it so now its true?, in a few more posts someone will think it double that again - that is the final cost in like 4 months time when its finnished - I havent spent anywhere near that yet. I like reinventing - you cant say this wont be original, and yesterday was fun as. What passes for turnkey automation these days is a herms - far from full.

Current cost so far is like 2K not 6K! And I should have enough valves left ofer to make an automated instant coffee machine, so it will make coffee for me in the morning - but that will be after wards mabee  

And of course there wont be any 3 peice ball valves to clean


----------



## winkle

Bandito said:


> Once again guys please stop spreading misinformation - one person says it so now its true?, in a few more posts someone will think it double that again - that is the final cost in like 4 months time when its finnished - I havent spent anywhere near that yet. I like reinventing - you cant say this wont be original, and yesterday was fun as. *What passes for turnkey automation these days is a herms* - far from full.
> 
> Current cost so far is like 2K not 6K! And I should have enough valves left ofer to make an automated instant coffee machine, so it will make coffee for me in the morning - but that will be after wards.



Actually the SABCO Brewmagic is a RIMS, but it would need a fair bit of work for full automation _(not that I would bother - but hey whatever floats your boat)_.


----------



## yardy

Brewing Bob said:


> Reinventing the wheel, probably, but this is Bandito's little toy. I reckon something good will come out of all of this for some of us.



i'm not trying to slag him or his project, (good luck to him) I'm just not of the view that we all sit here aghast at his brilliant new discoveries, because they're not.

this is supposed to be about ease of use and simplicity isn't it ?

as far as i can see bandito is taking the long long way around a well trodden road, instead of trying to reinvent the brewery wheel, he could have by now a decent system for his $2000 that would be making beer.

(apologies for the quoted $6000, but 2K is still a substantial amount for a system that's not producing beer imho )

thumbs up to the dedication and tenacity to get it built but it looks like a long time between drinks for burrito

cheers

Dave


----------



## Bandito

Who said it wasnt making beer! :lol: Insulated the tubes with socks wrapped around then gladwrap! Didnt bother testing too much, decided thats the best it will get today, so put on a little mash - as usual, no recipe - just freeballing it. 1kg pils, 100gm crystal, 125gm chocolate. 63C mash for ? time. Sazz hops in boil. Will try pumping out of boil pot with stainless braid over the end using the other pump. Thinking a false bottom in the kettle might be going a bit overboard in the full version too.

The valve on the right leaked through a few drops, still needs some tweaking.


----------



## bradsbrew

Thats what I like to see ...Dodgy systems making beer :beer: 

You do know you have to crush the grain first though.  

And is the bitburger vessel your no chill, fermenter or keg??


----------



## Bandito

bradsbrew said:


> Thats what I like to see ...Dodgy systems making beer :beer:



Bloody oath! Boiling the first batch, and mashing the second :lol: Not sure if I can keep it up for a third mash though. Mabee tomorrow night.

Grain is brewcraft precracked, and the bitburger is empty and just a stand for the capacitance meter.


----------



## gregs

yardy said:


> i'm not trying to slag him or his project, (good luck to him) I'm just not of the view that we all sit here aghast at his brilliant new discoveries, because they're not.
> 
> this is supposed to be about ease of use and simplicity isn't it ?
> 
> as far as i can see bandito is taking the long long way around a well trodden road, instead of trying to reinvent the brewery wheel, he could have by now a decent system for his $2000 that would be making beer.
> 
> (apologies for the quoted $6000, but 2K is still a substantial amount for a system that's not producing beer imho )
> 
> thumbs up to the dedication and tenacity to get it built but it looks like a long time between drinks for burrito
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



I would have to agree with you on this one Yards. Good luck to Bandito, obviously he likes to muck around with things but I dont see any brilliance here, it looks like a lot of fooling around and playing with stuff that other people have been doing successfully for years. Except what hes doing looks rather bodgie and cheap. 

Im not knockn the guy either, but as I said I dont see any brilliance here.


----------



## Bizier

I think it is a very entertaining read to date. And while Bandito is not original in theory, it is pretty original in scale and bizarreness. I am assuming that his final setup is going to be a little more polished than the assembly of basic kitchen items. Bandito, I think it couldn't get more Gilligan's Island unless you included a coconut mash tun with bamboo transfer lines. I think you should change your name to "The Professor".

I am far more interested in you spending $2000 on wackiness than a pre-fab HERMS/RIMS or whatever and posting about that, although I'd be jealous.


----------



## Bandito

So after todays testing, I think the valve on the mash tun is too open and will reduce the bore back to 1.5mm to slow the flow to increase clarity. 2mm holes in false bottom seem great, so that should be fine for the full sized version. The stainless braid left all of the hops in the boil pot, so thats good for the full sized version too. The pumps handled being used for 1.5 hours at a time in the bodgy herms abomonation, and the teflon tube did transfer heat to the wort, but require insulation to stop them transferring too much heat to the air. The pumps also handled being sterilised by pumping boiling water, and pumping just boiled wort.

Bit disappointed nothing blew up or went drastically wrong, as part of the point was to identify weak points. Although the valve did leak a few drops, I overfilled the MLT with sparge water causing some to go on the bench, and I did add strike water with the valve open, so not completely uneventful :lol: 

Yea, its not meant to be brilliant, but I'm liking the bizzzreness! Would love to see a gilligans island brewery too!


----------



## Bandito

The 50 feet of silicon tube just arrived! At 7:30 am :blink: 

So thats the veins, heart and heart valves sorted. Gonna be a good day.


----------



## T.D.

bigfridge said:


> We all wish you well, but I have to wonder - $6,000 spent and not a drop of beer to show for it.
> 
> Man, where are your priorities !



Well, given that there is another automation project being touted on this forum that has been happening for around two and a half years since its inception, without a single drop of wort being produced, it doesn't seem that building these systems is really about the beer at all. What it is about is debatable I guess, but I have my suspicions.


----------



## T.D.

yardy said:


> (apologies for the quoted $6000, but 2K is still a substantial amount for a system that's not producing beer imho )



Again, why is this stuff being directed to Bandito?? In another thread Jonathon has spent two and a half years on an automated brewery that has not produced a drop of beer, and I shudder to think what the cost sums to thus far. I dare say much more than $2k. At least Bandido has only spent a few months on it...

I am definitely more about the beer than the bling, but even so I think some consistency would be good with these things. The gushing in that other thread makes me want to :icon_vomit:


----------



## Jono_w

T.D. said:


> Again, why is this stuff being directed to Bandito?? In another thread Jonathon has spent two and a half years on an automated brewery that has not produced a drop of beer, and I shudder to think what the cost sums to thus far. I dare say much more than $2k. At least Bandido has only spent a few months on it...
> 
> I am definitely more about the beer than the bling, but even so I think some consistency would be good with these things. The gushing in that other thread makes me want to :icon_vomit:



Here we go again!


----------



## T.D.

Jonathon said:


> Here we go again!



:lol: isn't there a youtube video you could be editing?


----------



## beerDingo

NIce one Bandito! Just ignore all of the naysayers! Don't know what their problem is... Why do they read the thread if they think it is such a dumb idea?

I'm assuming that Bandito likes making/designing things! My guess that this is where he will get most of his enjoyment from this system. Actualy designing and making it. I'm sure that if he went out and just bought a system like some are yelling for him to do, he'd feel like he cheated, and have no satisfaction at the end of it. Obviously he'll get even more satisfaction once (if ever) this system is producing beer for him!

I do agree, that there are many people who know more about making something like this, but it seems that he is enjoying the whole process, and trying to find new ways of doing things (even if they are not always new).

If no-one tried anything new, then we'd be stuck with the same old shit! (What??? People are making their own beer recipes????) Also, look at all the different equipement and methods that people make beer with already. Not everyone does it the same, and some of the "dodgier" systems can make better beer than something that is all blinged out (and vice versa). Also, some people just like bling...

Anyway, good luck to you, and keep the updates coming.


----------



## Phoney

My father in law has a vintage car in his garage that he's spent about 10 years building from the chassis up, and it isnt even finished yet. He's spent thousands of dollars and countless hundreds of hours on it, scouring the world looking for obscure parts, in some cases making or modifying his own. Yet he's only got to the point where he could start the engine in the last year. He's yet to even to drive it out of his driveway!

Sure, he's reinventing the wheel, he could have easily just went and bought a similar one and spent the past 10 years driving that on sundays.... But that's not the point is it? If building your pet project is your pride and joy, who are we to criticize?


----------



## roller997

Fully agree with the sentiment expressed by BeerDingo. 

Some members may not agree with the timing, goals set, money spent and see this as a waste of time / money. 
Bear in mind that it is not your money / time being wasted and ultimately no one is asking you to follow the threads. 
I also don't see that there is anything to be gained by having a go at the individuals for the slow progress or money spent since it is their choice to invest their own time and money into these ventures. They choose to spend their time and money and at the same time keep other members who are interested informed of their progress.

I find both threads quite interesting and hope that both Bandito and Jonathon keep updating the threads frequently.

PS: Jonathon - It was a great Youtube video clip.


----------



## gregs

What Bandito is doing is absolutely personal to him and his end goal (whatever that is?) And if thats what he wants to do then good luck to him, all I see is a system of plastic buckets and plastic tubing and a cheap electric jug, no brilliance at all, very little but a thread full of rubbish. 

 As the title says

 Fully Automated Brewing System Design, Self milling, mashing, lautering, hop adds, ferment. 

As I said good luck to him I hope he can do it, so come on Bandito where is the brilliance?


----------



## bum

Why does Bandito need to assuage your demands for brilliance? He never promised such a thing.

You guys also need to start reading threads rather than just looking at the pictures - he has clearly stated that kettle/bucket thing is a small test mock-up. If you guys really want to bag him wait 'till he gives you something to actually bag. At present you just look like catty bitches.


----------



## yardy

bum said:


> Why does Bandito need to assuage your demands for brilliance? He never promised such a thing.
> 
> You guys also need to start reading threads rather than just looking at the pictures - he has clearly stated that kettle/bucket thing is a small test mock-up. If you guys really want to bag him wait 'till he gives you something to actually bag. At present you just look like catty bitches.




catty ? read between the lines bum, 20 pages later and hes drilled a few holes, spent two grand and bastardised a couple of kettles..

i'm not bagging the bloke, i offered my 2 bobs at the start when he didn't know the difference between a tun and kettle, i honestly hope the bloke brings it to fruition, my point of view as someone who fabricates for a living is to take the easy road in building something, *k*eep *i*t *s*imple *s*tupid


----------



## Batz

One day 'Fully Automated Brewing' will be so good you will be able to just walk into a store and buy beer without brewing it at all.

Batz h34r:


----------



## LethalCorpse

I thought the PFD was supposed to ensure perfect implementation, first time. Bandito's an expert on drawing PFDs, you know?


----------



## Bandito

Getting back to the business side of things now.

I just boiled 5L of water to dilute yesterdays wort, and realising I needed to use a peristaltic pump to transfer to the fermenter, I pumped through boiling water for a while, then I figured I would keep it running to help cool it faster. The 9 volts I have been using is a bit slow, so I connected a 24 volt powersupply, and its going like a rocket! Tested the voltage under load, and it is actually 26.8 volts, and pumping 1L per minute! (rated at 0.675L per minute at 24 Volts) The motor is getting very hot and wouldnt be supprised if it burns out - only one way to find out. It does sound like it is coping well though.


----------



## bum

yardy said:


> read between the lines bum, 20 pages later and hes drilled a few holes, spent two grand and bastardised a couple of kettles..


 
Wait, I'm confused. Do you want me to read between the lines or the actual lines? Because that's what you told me to read. 

The 20 pages of which you speak is mostly catty bitches telling him he's wasting good beer drinking time. Clearly Bandito's aims are a little different to most of the rest of us and yet many of us seem to be judging him only by our goals. 



yardy said:


> my point of view as someone who fabricates for a living is to take the easy road in building something


 
Some people enjoy taking the long way. It's not the destination, etc.


----------



## Bandito

The pump survived! 1 hour of recirculating hot water untill it was just worm at 26.8 volts and 1L per minute, Then 23 minutes of airating the wort - strangely enough, judging by the sound, it struggled with this most of all, and the motor did get damn warm, probably 80C. But a sucessful test nonetheless. Last test is a pressure test. It is rated at 14psi, so thats about 10 metres height, I'll save that for when I am really bored.

Determined to order those butterfly valves tomorrow night.


----------



## yardy

Batz said:


> One day 'Fully Automated Brewing' will be so good you will be able to just walk into a store and buy beer without brewing it at all.
> 
> Batz h34r:





it'll never catch on ...


----------



## Bandito

Just uploaded some vids from last weekends tests.

This one shows the peristaltic pump pumping boiling water at 26.8 volts (1 L per minute): 



This some shows peristaltic pump pumping boiled wort into fermenter at 9 volts: 



This one shows using a peristaltic pump in a dogie herms, and using a normally open pinch valve. Also shows filling the inner bucket above the top of the outer bucket and causing a leak (thought it was an unsealed tube but wasnt). This also hilights that these solenoids need a high voltage to actuate, but overheat at those voltages, to keep them cool, the voltage should start off high, then drop down. 

 


I ordered the 12" teflon coated butterfly valves from the US today, almost time to call them and give them a hurry up, should have them within 2 weeks - at 53KG, the hard part is getting them up the stairs! 






On the books this weekend is testing the normally closed pinch valves for the automated morning coffee part of the project. I dont think my granulated coffee will flow, but thats the purpose of the tests. I think the sugar, water and milk will though  Within the next month I will get some relay boards to use with Labview, and some powersupply's, With those I can setup a system for these normally closed valves. I plan to actuate them at higher than they are rated at - about 16 to 18 volts instead of 12 volts. But with the use of Labview program, or mabee just simple electronics, reduce the voltage about a 1/4 of a second after actuation to about 6 volts, which should keep them cool enough.


PS. I trust you dont mind me plagurising your sig Yardy.


----------



## Bandito

Just called the butterfly supplier in the US, and a good thing, as they hadn't realised that I had sent a purchase order thursday afternoon ((their time) (currently friday morning)). So that'll probably speed it up a few days - hopefully will be sent within the next 8 hours. 

I tell ya, I'm living on the smell of an oily rag to afford this stuff, and thats with saving since well before the start - put off the power bill (currently a week overdue), living on soup, wearing torn jeans, drinking home brew - at least its not all bad. 'Gotta spend money to make money lou!'.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> I tell ya, I'm living on the smell of an oily rag to afford this stuff, and thats with saving since well before the start - put off the power bill (currently a week overdue), living on soup, wearing torn jeans, drinking home brew - at least its not all bad. 'Gotta spend money to make money lou!'.



how goes the build bandito ?


----------



## skippy

those videos are boring as bat shit


----------



## hockadays

Bandito said:


> Just called the butterfly supplier in the US, and a good thing, as they hadn't realised that I had sent a purchase order thursday afternoon ((their time) (currently friday morning)). So that'll probably speed it up a few days - hopefully will be sent within the next 8 hours.
> 
> I tell ya, I'm living on the smell of an oily rag to afford this stuff, and thats with saving since well before the start - put off the power bill (currently a week overdue), living on soup, wearing torn jeans, drinking home brew - at least its not all bad. 'Gotta spend money to make money lou!'.




Hope he has't run out of cash for internet connection


----------



## Bandito

Still waiting for the butterflys to arrive, and saving for the next procurement - the labview relay boards and power supplies. Still a huge list of things to get.

stainless 300mm pipe 450mm long with flanges welded to each end for MLT body and 600mm long for kettle body. Plus gaskets.
300mm False bottom
24V DC, 4.5V DC, 12V DC and 6V DC power supplies.
5 x 8 relay boards.
Mains pressure automated valve.
plate chiller
Tablet dispensers for Hop dispenser carosels
Peltier fridge for hop storage.
40L HLT urn
Automated dog food dispensers for grain dispense
Electronic Temperature sensors
Stainless Steel Radiators (not sure if they exist)
60L Stainless conical fermenter.
Hermes.
Stainless mixing arm with motor for MLT
100-150RPM whirlpool motor with stainless impeller.
2 x Butterfly valve actuators 
2 x power controllers for HERMS and kettle, and mabee 2 extra ones for heating the 53kg butterflys. 

View attachment AUTOBREW_02_rev_V.pdf


----------



## Bandito

Should add a water filter to the above list, not sure if it will just be a 1 micron sediment filter with an activated coconut carbon filter, or a full RO. I will need an extra tablet diapenser carosel to dispense measured quantities of brewing salts as well. I am thinking something like this: http://www.psifilters.com.au/buy-online/de...ink-system.html It looks like it uses the same cartridges as my current kitchen RO setup uses (http://www.psifilters.com.au/buy-online/de...psi-021-4p.html), so will be looking to put the new cartridges in my kitchen, and move the old ones to the brewery.
Although, if I get this new 2 litre per minute model which I havent seen before, I could plumb the 12L kitchen tank from the brewery: http://www.psifilters.com.au/buy-online/de...sis-system.html Will have to give peter a call, I got my existing system from him and he gives good advice. RO's usually have a dismal flow and so require a pressurised bladder tank that fills slowly but empties fast (of which I have two (one to take to work and one for home))

Which leads me onto the next item to add to the list: A Sanitary water supply.
There are Ultra Violet inline lights that are meant for sanitising bore water, but for brewing, I think the only real option is boiling and cooling. I would love to have sanitry water on tap. Ie. Press a button to sanitise water, then wait a while for it to cool. Possibly pass it through a chiller (especially if it was purely for boiled water) or perhaps just pumping it through a SS pipe with a $100 job peristaltic with heatsinks on the pipe and a couple of fans.



Got a call RE: the Butterfly valves - they are in the country, and are now in the process of being cleared by customs. I would like to think that I will get them on friday, but it has taken so so long that all I can hope for is a friday in june! This purchase has been so drawn out it really starting to piss me orf.


----------



## unrealeous

Bandito said:


> Which leads me onto the next item to add to the list: A Sanitary water supply.
> There are Ultra Violet inline lights that are meant for sanitising bore water, but for brewing, I think the only real option is boiling and cooling. I would love to have sanitry water on tap. Ie. Press a button to sanitise water, then wait a while for it to cool. Possibly pass it through a chiller (especially if it was purely for boiled water) or perhaps just pumping it through a SS pipe with a $100 job peristaltic with heatsinks on the pipe and a couple of fans.


No need champ - your 60/90 minute wort boil takes care of that. All you need to ensure if you filter out the dirt!


----------



## Bandito

The sanitary water supply is not for mashing, rather, for other tasks like diluting the fermenting volume to achieve the wanted SG, rinsing kegs in the later to be unvieled keg washing part, perhaps diluting fermented wort, mabee for starters (although will probably just do a tiny automated mash instead). Lots of times I would have loved a tap with sterilised water in it!

I hope to build it into the morning coffee part of the brewery. So when someone asks ' and does it make coffee for you in the morning?' I can say Yes! it does!


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> The sanitary water supply is not for mashing, .... perhaps diluting fermented wort,



You have proven you do not take advice so this is not for you but those reading in the future.

It is not good to dilute fermented wort with water. If you need to dilute, it is done before it ferments. Just had a post about this end of April 2010.


----------



## manticle

Hi Katzke,

Is this mainly due to the possibility of oxygenation or some other reason?

Cheers


----------



## katzke

manticle said:


> Hi Katzke,
> 
> Is this mainly due to the possibility of oxygenation or some other reason?
> 
> Cheers



Don't know. Just know it is not recommend. It can be done, however the beer should be designed to be diluted. Oxygen is a factor so the water needs special treatment. Much easier to brew a strong wort and dilute that then try and brew a strong beer and treat the water for dilution.

My intent of the post was not to change his mind. It was to let others know that the guy designing the system is not some brewing expert and that diluting fermented wort is not recommended for the average home brewer. If you want to discuss dilution it would be best to look up the thread. Here is a link to it as I was just looking at the last post. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...c=44273&hl=


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> rinsing kegs in the later to be unvieled keg washing part,
> 
> I hope to build it into the morning coffee part of the brewery



bandito, good to see you're back into it :icon_chickcheers: 

with regards to the _keg washing plant_ and the _morning coffee area_, will they be situated near the _'oh **** i can't get to washing machine anymore'_ area ?

cheers


----------



## unrealeous

This whole thread reminds me of that urban myth..

NASA needed a pen that could work in zero gravity for use by astronauts, so they spent six years and $12 million on its development. The pen can write upside down, underwater, on almost any surface and is functional at extremely hot and cold temperatures. 

Faced with the same problem, the Russians used a pencil.


----------



## BjornJ

Commercial breweries dilute with deoxynated, carbonated water after fermentation.
The reason is that they brew high-gravity wort and fermenting this gravity wort means they can dilute with water to get a larger volume of beer than their tanks.
As in a tank with 100,000 litres of beer can be diluted with 30% water and you end up with more beer to sell  

Read a post by ThirstyBoy who work at a brewery, he said part of the flavor profile for Australian lagers come from the fact that they are brewed from high OG wort, then diluted after fermentation is complete.

thanks
Bjorn

edit: Didn't mean that *Australian* beers taste this way due to post-fermentation dilution, but that part of the flavor profile comes from this practise (as opposed to homebrewers brewing at final gravity)


----------



## Zizzle

unrealeous said:


> This whole thread reminds me of that urban myth..
> 
> NASA needed a pen that could work in zero gravity for use by astronauts, so they spent six years and $12 million on its development. The pen can write upside down, underwater, on almost any surface and is functional at extremely hot and cold temperatures.
> 
> Faced with the same problem, the Russians used a pencil.



The other part of that myth is that you don't want graphite particles floating around in zero-G to get in the switches and electronics that run the tin can that sustains your life and gets you back to 1G.

Maybe the Russians didn't think of it? Maybe they assessed a low risk? Maybe they didn't care about losing cosmonauts?

To each his own.


----------



## redlegger

Bandito said:


> Got a call RE: the Butterfly valves - they are in the country, and are now in the process of being cleared by customs. I would like to think that I will get them on friday, but it has taken so so long that all I can hope for is a friday in june! This purchase has been so drawn out it really starting to piss me orf.




Hey mate - just curious, why didnt you get the valves from an aussie supplier? There are heaps of valve companies around that carry these off the shelf?


----------



## katzke

BjornJ said:


> Commercial breweries dilute with deoxynated, carbonated water after fermentation.
> As in a tank with 100,000 litres of beer can be diluted with 30% water and you end up with more beer to sell



Exactly, they also have a lab to test water, malts, hops, and every step of the brewing cycle. As home brewers it is easier to brew to gravity then to brew a high gravity beer and dilute it. If you must dilute a beer it is less problematic to do it pre ferment then post ferment.

Besides I though the reason we brewed at home was because we did not like the beer that comes from such factories. Could that be part of the reason?


----------



## JonnyAnchovy

Zizzle said:


> The other part of that myth is that you don't want graphite particles floating around in zero-G to get in the switches and electronics that run the tin can that sustains your life and gets you back to 1G.
> 
> Maybe the Russians didn't think of it? Maybe they assessed a low risk? Maybe they didn't care about losing cosmonauts?
> 
> To each his own.



redditor? this was on the frontpage recently.


----------



## paulwolf350

unrealeous said:


> This whole thread reminds me of that urban myth..
> 
> NASA needed a pen that could work in zero gravity for use by astronauts, so they spent six years and $12 million on its development. The pen can write upside down, underwater, on almost any surface and is functional at extremely hot and cold temperatures.
> 
> Faced with the same problem, the Russians used a pencil.




Exactly. Lol, I love it

I love this thread too, btw, classic. construction shouldnt be too far away


----------



## Daniel.lear

katzke said:


> Don't know. Just know it is not recommend. It can be done, however the beer should be designed to be diluted. Oxygen is a factor so the water needs special treatment. Much easier to brew a strong wort and dilute that then try and brew a strong beer and treat the water for dilution.
> 
> My intent of the post was not to change his mind. It was to let others know that the guy designing the system is not some brewing expert and that diluting fermented wort is not recommended for the average home brewer. If you want to discuss dilution it would be best to look up the thread. Here is a link to it as I was just looking at the last post. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...c=44273&hl=



If you wish to dilute post-fermentation the water must also be free of any chlorine as it reacts with hops forming chlorophenols i believe. Happy to be corrected.

Leary


----------



## manticle

unrealeous said:


> This whole thread reminds me of that urban myth..
> 
> NASA needed a pen that could work in zero gravity for use by astronauts, so they spent six years and $12 million on its development. The pen can write upside down, underwater, on almost any surface and is functional at extremely hot and cold temperatures.
> 
> Faced with the same problem, the Russians used a pencil.



no idea who developed it but such a pen does (or did) exist. When I did my Fine art degree, the nearby artshop (Melbourne City Eckersley's) stocked them for a while. I think it relied on its novelty for sales.

I can remember thinking 'what possible use will anyone have for that?"


----------



## bcp

manticle said:


> no idea who developed it but such a pen does (or did) exist. When I did my Fine art degree, the nearby artshop (Melbourne City Eckersley's) stocked them for a while. I think it relied on its novelty for sales.
> 
> I can remember thinking 'what possible use will anyone have for that?"



:icon_offtopic: Who, me?
"It was developed _not_ by NASA, however, but by one enterprising individual, Paul C. Fisher, owner of the Fisher Space Pen Company. By his own account, Fisher spent "thousands of hours and millions of dollars" of his own money in research and development not billions.The Fisher Space Pen is still used by both American and Russian astronauts on every space flight, and you can even buy one yourself direct from the company for a measly 50 bucks."
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_z...gravity_pen.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen


----------



## Bandito

redlegger9 said:


> Hey mate - just curious, why didnt you get the valves from an aussie supplier? There are heaps of valve companies around that carry these off the shelf?



The cost for local Teflon coated was about $1400 each from Tyco ($700 for non teflon but stuffed if I'm going to have a rubber seat in contact with my boiling wort, and teflon coated is reccommended for boiling temperatures to ensure a good seal). I must admit though, it might not have been that much dearer considering the numerous importation fees (neglecting local GST, would have been about $800 more at a guess). Here is the invoice I got today for customs clearance, and sending to my home from the airport.  I wouldnt have a clue what half of those fees are - got no choice though, have to pay it - and just did  

Its a phenonomal cost, but these butterfly valves are the 'Fully' part of the 'Fully Automated Brewery'. I maght have been able to get away with just tipping the MLT, but there is so much stuff going in the top I really wanted it stationary.


----------



## redlegger

Bandito said:


> The cost for local Teflon coated was about $1400 each from Tyco ($700 for non teflon but stuffed if I'm going to have a rubber seat in contact with my boiling wort, and teflon coated is reccommended for boiling temperatures to ensure a good seal). I must admit though, it might not have been that much dearer considering the numerous importation fees (neglecting local GST, would have been about $800 more at a guess). Here is the invoice I got today for customs clearance, and sending to my home from the airport.  I wouldnt have a clue what half of those fees are - got no choice though, have to pay it.
> 
> Its a phenonomal cost, but these butterfly valves are the 'Fully' part of the 'Fully Automated Brewery'. I maght have been able to get away with just tipping the MLT, but there is so much stuff going in the top I really wanted it stationary.



I work for Tyco over here in WA 

PM on the way


----------



## Bandito

katzke said:


> You have proven you do not take advice /snip



Really? me? Do you like apples? How do you like this apple from page three?

>>>


yardy said:


> gday bandito,
> 
> mash tun: _a piece of cloth_ in a fully automated system ?
> 
> *why not a decent sized dump valve in the base of the Tun to assist with cleaning ?
> *
> for this to work you should be underletting your strike water also (water from HLT flows in under the false bottom)
> 
> to CIP after the spent grain has been dumped your rinse/spray water would first flow from the top and then from the underlet, everything goes out the dump valve.
> 
> i'm not saying this would work as i think there will always be a small amount of grain left behind in the false bottom but i think if you're serious it's a better alternative than a piece of cloth that could present lautering problems, high pressure and a series of rinses through the dump valve would help.
> 
> 
> 
> in order, HLT to MLT to Kettle
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



I trust a 300mm butterfly valve is considered a decent sized dump valve. I am still waking up in the middle of the night in cold sweats after having wierd dreams about underletting! I always make up my own mind after considering the suggestions.


Back on topic:

Thanks Redlegger9, I had heard of the term 'EPDM rubber' years ago, and when I saw it in the Tyco catalogue, I got turned off it. Perhaps I should have found out what EPDM actually stands for, what it is etc.


----------



## Bandito

Inspired by Absinthe's malting thread, I have decided to add self malting and kilning to the fully automated brewery. Been thinking about it for about a month, and in the last few days have built up a reasonalbe 3d model in my head. Will model it in cad as time permits, and post when ready, but will basically be a perforated Stainless Steel drum that rotates inside a larger SS drum. Will have water sprayers for soaking, and a heating element for kilning. Will be insulated to allow use like an oven.

At this stage it looks like a single vessel with manual bagging. I doubt it will be operational by mid august - which is when I am planning to do the first mash, so probably about december, but would like to make a bulk SS fabrication order, so might be ready earlier. 

One issue is that with that amount of time being moist, even SS might rust, so it might require a coating of teflon.

I found a place in QLD that can bake teflon onto vessels. Trying to find a damn good reason not to have everything baked with teflon. The malting parts are the only ones so far that I think would need it though.


----------



## unrealeous

Bandito said:


> I have decided to add self malting and kilning to the fully automated brewery


Sounds great - this is a really exciting development. Can't wait to see it all in action. I'll make sure I get a good doctor so I'm still alive in 2047.

Seriously dood - don't take your eye off the pie.


----------



## LethalCorpse

Bandito said:


> I have decided to add self malting and kilning to the fully automated brewery.


BWAHAHAAAHAHHHAAHAHHHAHAAAAHAHAHHAAAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
HAHAHAHHAH *cough*
:lol:


----------



## katzke

You have got to be kidding! You have any idea how long it will take to malt enough grain to feed your automated brewery?

Plus roasting grains requires them to age so you will be out for any other then base malt.

Then there are crystal malts to consider.

You planning on moving into a bigger basement apartment with an extra bedroom and a good enough floor to hold your monster brewery?


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> I have decided to add self malting and kilning to the fully automated brewery



fukcin hell :lol: 

you'll be growing it next..


----------



## komodo

Bandito said:


> I found a place in QLD that can bake teflon onto vessels. Trying to find a damn good reason not to have everything baked with teflon. The malting parts are the only ones so far that I think would need it though.



I think you need to look into teflon ...

http://www.teflonhealthhazard.com/
http://www.wisegeek.com/is-teflon-dangerous.htm
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/teflon4.htm

The less teflon I come in contact with the better!
You seem to love the stuff though.

I would assume in the malting / kilning process you wouldnt get it to temperatures that hot to cause issues but if it were me I'd be avoiding it.


----------



## MHB

Just for fun
View attachment 37927

MHB


----------



## Bandito

katzke said:


> You have got to be kidding! You have any idea how long it will take to malt enough grain to feed your automated brewery?
> 
> Plus roasting grains requires them to age so you will be out for any other then base malt.
> 
> Then there are crystal malts to consider.
> 
> You planning on moving into a bigger basement apartment with an extra bedroom and a good enough floor to hold your monster brewery?



No, I am quite serious! Now thinking multiple intermitantely rotating perforated plastic cylinders for the malting (stacked vertically), and a rotating perforated SS cylinder being heated by a fan forced oven type of setup. I know the design as a 'reactor'.
Manual bagging will allow them to age.

A move is on the books in a few months time, will be looking for a decent brewery location.



yardy said:


> fukcin hell :lol:
> 
> you'll be growing it next..



Unfortunately the 1 hectare area I had earmarked and planted with a small test crop of spuds flooded earlier this year  . First time in 6 years that it has flooded, and is still under water. I hope to retrieve my garden fork one day.



Komodo said:


> I think you need to look into teflon ...
> 
> http://www.teflonhealthhazard.com/
> http://www.wisegeek.com/is-teflon-dangerous.htm
> http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/teflon4.htm
> 
> The less teflon I come in contact with the better!
> You seem to love the stuff though.
> 
> I would assume in the malting / kilning process you wouldnt get it to temperatures that hot to cause issues but if it were me I'd be avoiding it.



Thanks, I am aware of that, its only 270C+ that is bad. Even gillette fusion shaving gel has PTFE in it!

Interesting PDF MHB, I like the last line, but surely the feeding of the brewery cat could be automated too!


----------



## komodo

Bandito said:


> Thanks, I am aware of that, its only 270C+ that is bad. Even gillette fusion shaving gel has PTFE in it!



This is why I have a beard


----------



## Mantis

And why I dont shave my balls


----------



## Bandito

I missed the valve delivery! Theres no emoticon for what I'm feeling! Another couple of days. Hopefully they call me this time.


----------



## Bandito

Valves arrived! They look great, teflon coating is quite thick and smooth. Frickin heavy! Will post a pic tonight.


----------



## Bandito

Release the Butterflys!


----------



## unrealeous

Wow they are big. You don't often see something that's white and 12 inches.


----------



## Bizier

ED: You are right, they are less often white.


----------



## jiesu

MHB said:


> Just for fun
> View attachment 37927
> 
> MHB



It funny that all that machinery and all those gizmos and levers for that brewery 20 years ago can now all be controlled on something the size of this. 










By the way here is another article on an automated brewery except this one is home brew size  and Stainless!

http://www.proleit.com/fileadmin/basis/hom...ini-brewery.pdf


----------



## Bandito

Thanks for that link daft Templar, I think this one should be smaller than that - nothing mentioned about the grain disposal though, so I'm guessing not fully automated, but lots more to make up for it though.

Having a play with the volume of the MLT and Kettle atm, and come up with this: it is calculating as having a volume of 87L. A plain cylinder 300mm diameter would need to be 1250mm high to have the same volume. I could be wrong though (cad programs arent giving volumes directly atm so have to do it old school way).

Anyway, this could allow for 60L FG batches with the one mash. Will do some friction tests to see what angle is required to make grist slide down stainless on the weekend.


----------



## thelastspud

jakub76 said:


> If you remember your spelling mistake "gran disposal"
> So I said "gran disposal" try www.euthanasia.com/


I thought that link you posted was a bit harsh, but now I get it  
maybe the mods didnt get it either


----------



## Bandito

jakub76 said:


> Wow! I'm so disappointed with you bandito.
> If you remember your spelling mistake "gran disposal"
> So I said "gran disposal" try www.euthanasia.com/
> judging by the comments I'm suprised I'm the 1st brewer pointing you there.
> Anyway, you got offended and somehow got the post deleted...after you asked me to suck your balls. Obviously that got deleted too.
> Well now that I have the chance to reply...no thanks.
> 
> What happened to all that Teflon? I thought that shit would slide straight off...you cock




Actually, I just sent a very nice peace making PM to another member, so I am in the peaceful mentality.

Yes, this whole issue started by me misspelling grain disposal as 'gran disposal' and Jakup76 making a funny about it.

For the first few reads it sounded as though he was saying that I should off myself, which has been suggested a few times in this thread, but on the fourth read I realised what he said. Then:

Yes, after asking you to delete the link to the euthanasia site, I did report your post! I dont think that discussions of that nature are appropriate here - this is my thread and thats how I feel - I have had enough crap in this thread, and I am sorry that your post got the brunt of my fed-up-ness. There are others that should have got a lot more than you (but your post is the first I have reported (apart from that spammer a month ago), and when I saw that you had deleted your post (as I thought you had- I deleted my post inviting you to suck my balls - I saw it as ' you deleted your post just as I asked, so I deleted my obsene post directed at you.

So yes, I got quite offended by a link to a site like that in my thread! You and anyone else would too. In the words of chappel "Do I come to your job and smack the broom out your hand"
I do appoligise to have had to report your post, but I did ask you to delete it first at least 3 times - I really did think that you had deleted it on your own occord and as such I deleted my retort.

This is a forum about beer, so sometimes stuff gets fucked up. Sometimes one makes stuffed up posts. Please accept my appoligies, and if you have something meaningful to post, please do, but please leave potitics and death jokes out of the beer - it tastes better that way!

Regards,
Bandit


----------



## Bandito

All forgoten!? Start a fresh? Is as far a I am concerned!


----------



## thelastspud

sounds good 
So where are you up to? You got your giant valves the other day. are you going to start fabricating the vessels soon?
or are you waiting till you move houses.


----------



## Bandito

Bandito said:


> Thanks for that link daft Templar, I think this one should be smaller than that - nothing mentioned about the grain disposal though, so I'm guessing not fully automated, but lots more to make up for it though.
> 
> Having a play with the volume of the MLT and Kettle atm, and come up with this: it is calculating as having a volume of 87L. A plain cylinder 300mm diameter would need to be 1250mm high to have the same volume. I could be wrong though (cad programs arent giving volumes directly atm so have to do it old school way).
> 
> Anyway, this could allow for 60L FG batches with the one mash. Will do some friction tests to see what angle is required to make grist slide down stainless on the weekend.



to get things off to a good start - Jakub76 - what do you think of the MLT / Kettle design?


----------



## Bandito

Bradley said:


> sounds good
> So where are you up to? You got your giant valves the other day. are you going to start fabricating the vessels soon?
> or are you waiting till you move houses.




Thanks Bradley, That is a question and a half!

I would like to get relay boards and power supplies to test out the pinch valves, as there is a lot of work to be done there, but would also love to be able to test how nuch force is required to turn the huge butterfly valves snd order the actuators. 

Its all going to come to a head very soon! Like very very soon! aussie dollar is down today. so Will save up an pounce when its good. Given the dollar, it looks like its all about timing (and how much longer it takes to save up)

Remember - I'm not rich, just a working bloke!

Please dont remind me about the vessels! They are calling to me in my sleep! ----bandito!!!!! you know you want to have us!!!!

I have to work out the parts that will be used for the vessels. Currently, I think a standard flange to attach to the butterfly valve,
then a standard reducer, then a standard diameter cylinder. Damn that was hard to put into words!


----------



## Bandito

Bradley said:


> sounds good
> So where are you up to? You got your giant valves the other day. are you going to start fabricating the vessels soon?
> or are you waiting till you move houses.




Yes. i have decided quite soon indeed!


----------



## yardy

you fabbing them yourself bandito or subbing them out ?

gas or elctric btw ?

cheers

Dave


----------



## Bandito

Was planning on subbing it out - open to members making it to my designs too! If anyone that can weld stainless and wants a job? Considering getting a welder myself too, and jumping in the deep end, not sure yet. Pm me if interested in quoting to make 2 like shown on previous page plus one conical fermenter, or part thereof.

A major issue has surfaced this week - the aussie dollar is diving hardcore! I was expecting this at sometime, and thats why I did the big international purchases early - to take advantage of the high dollar. I have purchased two automated tablet dispensers for the hop dispenser part, but am delaying the relay board purchase until I have read through the labview site a bit more to be sure I get the right parts.

Given the dollar, I might have to put the international purchases on hold and focus on the local stainless vessels instead. I have only welded a few times, which is pretty sad for someone that drafts steel buildings! I should really man up and get myself a welding rig! I have ben looking on youtube for SS welding vids, anyone know of any good tutorials? Or care to post some?

The butterfly valves require a heavy (thick) flange which is available off the shelf and known as an ANSI 150 flange, this is because of the large distance between the contact part and the bolts. I am going to look into using standard reducers (which are conical) to adapt the 300mm valve to a larger size pf standard pipe, but I still have to look up the catalogues for those. A custom thin walled vessel welded to the starndard think flange would be the go I think. There will be plenty of gussets (stiffeners (triangular plates)) welded between the horizontal flange and the vertical wall of the vessel to distribute the stresses.

The Lights Out brewery will be Electric. Thats what I am thinking of calling it now. Motto will be along the lines of: I'm out fishing, but the automatron is still brewing! So harden the **** up!


----------



## matho

bandito,

you might want to wait until you have a vessel made before you test the force required to open the butterfly valves the weight of the spent grain might change the force.

it might or it might not just a suggestion.

cheer's matho


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> There will be plenty of gussets (stiffeners (triangular plates)) welded between the horizontal flange and the vertical wall of the vessel to distribute the stresses.



slip on or weld neck flange ?


----------



## bum

Bandito said:


> Inspired by Absinthe's malting thread, I have decided to add self malting and kilning to the fully automated brewery. Been thinking about it for about a month, and in the last few days have built up a reasonalbe 3d model in my head. Will model it in cad as time permits, and post when ready, but will basically be a perforated Stainless Steel drum that rotates inside a larger SS drum. Will have water sprayers for soaking, and a heating element for kilning. Will be insulated to allow use like an oven.


 
Can anyone else remember who it was that made the thread about his bastardised-clothes-dryer-as-grain-malter thread a while back? Might be insightful and, if suitable, easier to bolt on to the design than something made from scratch.


----------



## Bizier

Ummm Absinthe...


----------



## bum

Nah, that's not the one I'm thinking of. Someone made a thread and posted a bunch of pictures of the build. Maybe a year ago? Maybe I dreamed it?


----------



## bum

Oh, found the thread I am thinking of and it turns out it was Absinthe after all (and not quite build pictures).

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=35419


----------



## Bandito

Last weekend I was sleeping in when I heard my downstairs neighbours discussing the possible contents of the mystery pallet of butterfly valves in the carport, so I jumped out of bed and stumbled out the door to make sure they werent stuffing with my precious!

Later that day I decided they only way to get them in the house was to take them apart and lift them in piece by piece.

Pics follow:
Schmatic:






Gear actuator - while this does gear the turning ratio, due to the high friction force, it doesnt make it easier to turn the shaft.





Top housing - this contains the main shaft and is impossible to turn - even without anything attached (I need to take this apart and replace the grease etc to see it it will turn easier) This makes these valves almost unturnable - hopefully a good stem and lube might fix it!





Closeup of the top shaft (where it meets with the geared actuator)





And a closer view





Bottom housing: the lower shaft (the round stainless axel still in place came out of the other one)


----------



## Bandito

The teflon seat closed

















The disk showing the teflon bearing that acts as the main seal









So after all the effort getting the massive weight of these valves over here from the US, I now realise that probably all I needed was the seat and disk (and probably not the steel bodys)!

The way these valves seem to work is by having a relatively solid and hard disk that rotates in a relatively soft seat that can bend and flex and warp to ensure a tight seal - this is where the terracotta colored silicon seat energiser comes into play (No. 10) because it acts as a spring to allow the seat to warp and the hard steel body acts to retard that warping - creating the good seal. The hard steel body acts to provide a base against which the silicon seat energiser works from.

Time will tell if I can just drill holes in the flanges of the teflon seats and do away with the steel bodys.

For those playing along at home, It might be a hell of a lot cheaper to just order replacment seats and disks rather then full valves!


----------



## Bandito

matho said:


> bandito,
> 
> you might want to wait until you have a vessel made before you test the force required to open the butterfly valves the weight of the spent grain might change the force.
> 
> it might or it might not just a suggestion.
> 
> cheer's matho




Yea, I do expect that to come into play, good call!




yardy said:


> slip on or weld neck flange ?



That was a major question before, but now I hope to do away with the thick metal flanges I had intended to use altogether and move towards light ~2mm SS vessels including the flanges. There is still the issue of how to seal the connection, but I am thinking 300mm silicon sheets should be availave from somewhere that can be cut to form a gasket.
Open to suggestions on this one, as I dont know of any.


----------



## thelastspud

Bandito said:


> Later that day I decided they only way to get them in the house was to take them apart and lift them in piece by piece.



why? are they really that heavy or what?


----------



## MVZOOM

So I've been following along at home. Quick question, how far through the project are you and when would you expect completion - or first run etc? Are you working to a schedule? 

Cheers - Mike


----------



## Bandito

Bradley said:


> why? are they really that heavy or what?


Assembled they were 56kg each without the geared actuator, so about 25+kg for the bottom half and a bit more for the top half - so while I can lift 50kg, I only do it with a weight belt and a bit of training that I am lacking atm.



MVZOOM said:


> So I've been following along at home. Quick question, how far through the project are you and when would you expect completion - or first run etc? Are you working to a schedule?
> Cheers - Mike


I am about 10% through the project! I am working to a schedule - middle of august for the first run is the goal. I am now starting to doubt the realisation of that, but thats the purpose of setting an unrealistic goal - to drive one forward that much harder and faster than one would have thought. 

To Do list:

stainless 300mm pipe 450mm long with flanges welded to each end for MLT body and 600mm long for kettle body. Plus gaskets.
300mm False bottom
24V DC, 4.5V DC, 12V DC and 6V DC power supplies.
5 x 8 relay boards.
Mains pressure automated valve.
plate chiller
Tablet dispensers for Hop dispenser carosels (on their way but will require quite a bit of hacking the stepper motors)
Peltier fridge for hop storage.
40L HLT urn
Automated dog food dispensers for grain dispense (now reconsidering the original design which turns out to be Gatlins design that revolutionised the automated sowing of crops and later led to the gatling gun)
Electronic Temperature sensors
Stainless Steel Radiators (not sure if they exist)
60L Stainless conical fermenter.
Hermes.
Stainless mixing arm with motor for MLT
100-150RPM whirlpool motor with stainless impeller.
2 x Butterfly valve actuators 
2 x power controllers for HERMS and kettle, and mabee 2 extra ones for heating the 53kg butterflys


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Assembled they were 56kg each without the geared actuator, so about 25+kg for the bottom half and a bit more for the top half - so while I can lift 50kg, I only do it with a weight belt and a bit of training that I am lacking atm.
> 
> 
> I am about 10% through the project! I am working to a schedule - middle of august for the first run is the goal. I am now starting to doubt the realisation of that, but thats the purpose of setting an unrealistic goal - to drive one forward that much harder and faster than one would have thought.
> 
> To Do list:
> 
> stainless 300mm pipe 450mm long with flanges welded to each end for MLT body and 600mm long for kettle body. Plus gaskets.
> 300mm False bottom
> 24V DC, 4.5V DC, 12V DC and 6V DC power supplies.
> 5 x 8 relay boards.
> Mains pressure automated valve.
> plate chiller
> Tablet dispensers for Hop dispenser carosels (on their way but will require quite a bit of hacking the stepper motors)
> Peltier fridge for hop storage.
> 40L HLT urn
> Automated dog food dispensers for grain dispense (now reconsidering the original design which turns out to be Gatlins design that revolutionised the automated sowing of crops and later led to the gatling gun)
> Electronic Temperature sensors
> Stainless Steel Radiators (not sure if they exist)
> 60L Stainless conical fermenter.
> Hermes.
> Stainless mixing arm with motor for MLT
> 100-150RPM whirlpool motor with stainless impeller.
> 2 x Butterfly valve actuators
> 2 x power controllers for HERMS and kettle, and mabee 2 extra ones for heating the 53kg butterflys




how many sq mtr are we talking about here ?


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> how many sq mtr are we talking about here ?




probably about 1sq m. All stacked vertically in all 11 dimensions B)


----------



## MVZOOM

Losing momentum?


----------



## yardy

laid up in traction from lifting the valves i suspect..


----------



## Bandito

Made a yeast culturing contraption last night. Just stepped the Danish Lager 2042 yeast to 1.2L in preperation for tomorrows 40L brew. A stir plate would have been heaps easier but this was so fun to build.


----------



## JonnyAnchovy

WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE!?


----------



## Bandito

It started out as a 2L coke bottle, then bandito got bored.


----------



## Bandito

Got a question: I am trying to figure out how to keep the cold break out of the fermenter, and now thinking of using one pump to recirculate the wort first through a stainless braid, then through the plate chiller and then back into the kettle so the cold break settles there. Then after it has cooled using another pump to suck the wort through stainless braid into the fermenter. Would that help leave the hops, hot and cold brake in the kettle?
I was going to let the cold break settle in the conical and dump a few L to get rid of it, but I dont think its optimal.

And anotherone: Since time wont be of concern, could I just pump air through the plate chiller instead of cooling water? I cant seem to find a stainless radiator, and dont want to use a copper radiator (which I already have) as it would cause corrosion (probably on the copper though). 

Anyone tried using a 12V air matress pump to blow air through a platechiller to cool wort?

I am now at the point where I could order everything, but still deciding whether to move or not, so holding off spending too much. The dollar is back to a good value though B) 

The biggest reason to stay where I am is to get this project finnished asap!


----------



## Bandito

During the week, I met a bloke that works for the local sheet metal fabricator. He said they are currently fabricating stainless stuff, and so can fabricate my vessels (probably from the scrap of their current work). So it looks like I now have a fabricator. Unless anyone here wants some work!!!! I asked before, but the offer still stands for the next few weeks, I dont need an expert, just someone willing to give it a shot! The margin should be enough to pay for the gear plus materials plus time.

Hey Yardy, care to name your price?

Just about to go offline and install a fresh system on a new 600GB velociraptor harddrive so I can run Solidworks to model the brewery in full 3D. The installation is screwing with the labview and autocad licences I have on the current system.

Got a card in the mail today for the automated tablet dispensers (hop dispensers), so sould be able to pick them up on monday. Cant wait to see if they have a stepper motor in them. I hate stepper motors! Stepper motors can lick my mother ******* balls! 

Vessel designs including custom conical fermenter should be posted within the next few weeks.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Hey Yardy, care to name your price?





haha, thanks mate but I'm busy building a temporary wharf for an LNG plant.


----------



## Bandito

Got the atuomatic pill dispensers today. They have a motor and worm gears in em! Yea! No stepper motors. There are grooves cut in the underside of the rotating tray which the teeth of the gear catches.
There is an infra red sensor and light that forms the positioning sensor, little things on the underside of the tray break the light beam.

Should be a sinch to automate.

So these two will be for the hop additions, need another one for the mineral additions for the mash. Took 4 weeks to arrive from US via evilbay.


----------



## windraider

LethalCorpse said:


> Subscribed.


How do you intend to measure Temperature?


----------



## bum

So the postcount there is for your entire internet experience, not just this forum, right?

How peculiar.


----------



## Bandito

windraider said:


> How do you intend to measure Temperature?




Thats a hard one, still thinking bout it. Will have to draw up a process and instrumentation diagram (P&ID) soon. Also bout time to do the electrical diagram too.


----------



## windraider

Bandito said:


> Thats a hard one, still thinking bout it. Will have to draw up a process and instrumentation diagram (P&ID) soon. Also bout time to do the electrical diagram too.




If you decide to use Ds18B20 1-wire sensors you can experiment with our free ThermoSoft Mk1 Software


Regards


Andrew Reid -------www.sustainabilitymeasurement.com


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Got the atuomatic pill dispensers today. They have a motor and worm gears in em! Yea! No stepper motors. There are grooves cut in the underside of the rotating tray which the teeth of the gear catches.
> There is an infra red sensor and light that forms the positioning sensor, little things on the underside of the tray break the light beam.
> 
> *Should be a sinch to automate.*
> 
> So these two will be for the hop additions, need another one for the mineral additions for the mash. Took 4 weeks to arrive from US via evilbay.




how's this progressing ?

cheers

Dave


----------



## paulwolf350

yardy said:


> how's this progressing ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



Think he is probably busy setting up his keg system Dave :unsure:


----------



## yardy

has the thread title changed ?

didn't think it had _'design'_ in there previously..


----------



## absinthe

hows the malting idea going? i have built a new auto malter that could be altered to steep, malt, dry, kiln, and then roast the grain if your handy... when my new camera arrives im going to make another video about it but is just a slow rotating drum with baffles to stir the grain, if ou made it from stainless steel and added a fan and some heating you could do the whole lot in it (although you would only get one type of malt) and crystal is easy to make as it munich  

oh and i have "do it at home syndrome" bad, i think you may have "do it at home while your not at home syndrome"? even worse


----------



## Bandito

Im trying to find suitable relay board to control everything, but I cant find one with a pic in it to demultiplex the control signal and provide analogue and digital inputs and outputs. They are out there somewhere. I did get a $30 dick smith car fridge, and it does fit two of them, still to see if it works off a computer power supply.

Yea, kegs are taking priority atm. Trying to save for this but little bits and pieces for kegs add up. Its all part of the same system though, fridges, filter, sanitisers now procured.

Always had design in the title.

Sounds great absinthe, look forward to the vids :super: . Yea, for me its all about being really really lazy. I'll set that up towards the end when the setup is running.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Always had design in the title.




my bad.. 

c'mon mate. i want to see some pics of the brewery in action :icon_chickcheers: 

Dave


----------



## Bandito

That's what time travel was invented for


----------



## Bandito

Well, I am now less than 2 weeks to the end of my rental lease and nothing is available that is suitable. So the funds I have saved up for moving are now available for the brewery! :super: 

Things will start to progress soon.

I am looking to model the brewery in 3d as soon as my new hard drive arrives (hopefully tomorrow).

Then I will hopefully be able to produce unwrapped templates to have the stainless shapes plasma or water jet cut which I can then weld.

It's all about to go hardcore! Just need a TIG welder.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Well, I am now less than 2 weeks to the end of my rental lease and nothing is available that is suitable. So the funds I have saved up for moving are now available for the brewery! :super:
> 
> Things will start to progress soon.
> 
> I am looking to model the brewery in 3d as soon as my new hard drive arrives (hopefully tomorrow).
> 
> Then I will hopefully be able to produce unwrapped templates to have the stainless shapes plasma or water jet cut which I can then weld.
> 
> It's all about to go hardcore! Just need a TIG welder.




doing the work yourself ?


----------



## matho

i thought this link might help you out 
and this about cip fittings

cheer's matho


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> doing the work yourself ?



Yea, will weld it myself, but I know I cant cut very well, and all three vessels have a conical bottom so I will have the stainless sheet cut for me. Thinking 2mm thickness? Would that be alright?

Been tooking on ebay for a tig welder. Whats a good price? will just be running it off a standard power outlet, I hope thats enough.



matho said:


> i thought this link might help you out
> and this about cip fittings
> 
> cheer's matho



Thanks! some nice info there.


----------



## praxis178

Bandito said:


> Yea, will weld it myself, but I know I cant cut very well, and all three vessels have a conical bottom so I will have the stainless sheet cut for me. Thinking 2mm thickness? Would that be alright?
> 
> Been tooking on ebay for a tig welder. Whats a good price? will just be running it off a standard power outlet, I hope thats enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! some nice info there.



For a small 60%duty cycle ~200A inverter unit you're looking at 200-350 plus a helmet $50 to whatever you're willing to pay, (they're your eyes!). Then you have to rent a bottle of argon (BOC ~$20 for the gas plus $40ish/quarter rental for a small one). I have one i that class and it does a great job on SS upto 2.5mm above that it's a bit dodgy, but that may just be my welding unskills.

How big tanks were you planning on? 1.2 is used in most winery fermenters to 2000l, the smaller 300 to 1000l ones are usually .95mm from foggy memory.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Yea, will weld it myself



you purging ?


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Thomas, I didnt realise I needed argon. But I did know that sanitry welds required the inside to be purged with aron. So purging ay? Not sure. I know I should, will have to mull over how to seal the ends, and will probably need to slightly pressureise it to ensure oxygen doesnt get in. Of course, first I need to get some decent practise and learn how to weld!

So 2mm is probably heaps then, cool.

The issue comes where I think I will need to use a 6mm minimun thickness bottom flange to bolt to the butterflys. Do you think the kind of unit you mentioned Thomas would have problems welding 2mm to 6mm stainless?


I will heed the warning on the eyes, can you reccomend the best welding mask thats not one of those solar activated ones please?

I have had welders flash once, but it was not from welding. A few years ago I was experimenting with a solar concentrator to reflect the sun off 15 mirrors onto a single solar panel. I got a light activated welding mask from the green shed but it wouldnt activate in the sun! I had also got a pair of oxy goggles so I wore those. Towards the end of aligning the mirrors to reflect all of the suns light on a single solar panel it got bloody bright! I did also look directly at the sun through them for a few minutes - looked amazing!

But the next day I couldnt open my eyes and had to call in sick, then the next day I also called in sick, but could open them for long enough to call my opthalmoligist who told me to use cold eye drops and cold compresses to cool the eyes down. That worked a treat and was back at work on wednesday - albeit wearing sunglasses in front of the pc!

The solar concentrator worked and the solar panel put out 10 times the current that it normally does. It did crack from the heat though, and I ran away fearing the fumes from the solar panel. But I did learn not to take chances with my eyes. When I went to my opthalomoligist for a checkup he said I hadnt done any permanent damage to my retina - thank god! Was pretty stupid, I knew I needed arc class protection. And I knew that oxy (flame) protection wouldnt cut it.

I hope thats a half interesting story and show that I dont do anything by half measures.

Pics of the solar concentrator:


----------



## praxis178

Bandito said:


> Thanks Thomas, I didnt realise I needed argon. But I did know that sanitry welds required the inside to be purged with aron. So purging ay? Not sure. I know I should, will have to mull over how to seal the ends, and will probably need to slightly pressureise it to ensure oxygen doesnt get in. Of course, first I need to get some decent practise and learn how to weld!
> 
> _Argon is way heavier than oxygen so all you have to do is stop it from falling out the lowest opening in what you're working on, cardboard and duct tape will work._
> 
> So 2mm is probably heaps then, cool.
> 
> _Yep.
> _
> The issue comes where I think I will need to use a 6mm minimun thickness bottom flange to bolt to the butterflys. Do you think the kind of unit you mentioned Thomas would have problems welding 2mm to 6mm stainless?
> 
> _Look at stick (electrode/rod welder) for that as I find I can get more heat deeper that way, it's a brute force thing._
> 
> I will heed the warning on the eyes, can you reccomend the best welding mask thats not one of those solar activated ones please?
> 
> _Look for a min shade 14 old style mask, should be ~$20 at the big green box, you can get replacement lenses at any welding supply place. These will usually be of far higher quality than the originals (even if they say they meet the *minimum* standards)._
> 
> I have had welders flash once, but it was not from welding. A few years ago I was experimenting with a solar concentrator to reflect the sun off 15 mirrors onto a single solar panel. I got a light activated welding mask from the green shed but it wouldnt activate in the sun! I had also got a pair of oxy goggles so I wore those. Towards the end of aligning the mirrors to reflect all of the suns light on a single solar panel it got bloody bright! I did also look directly at the sun through them for a few minutes - looked amazing!
> 
> But the next day I couldnt open my eyes and had to call in sick, then the next day I also called in sick, but could open them for long enough to call my opthalmoligist who told me to use cold eye drops and cold compresses to cool the eyes down. That worked a treat and was back at work on wednesday - albeit wearing sunglasses in front of the pc!
> 
> The solar concentrator worked and the solar panel put out 10 times the current that it normally does. It did crack from the heat though, and I ran away fearing the fumes from the solar panel. But I did learn not to take chances with my eyes. When I went to my opthalomoligist for a checkup he said I hadnt done any permanent damage to my retina - thank god! Was pretty stupid, I knew I needed arc class protection. And I knew that oxy (flame) protection wouldnt cut it.
> 
> I hope thats a half interesting story and show that I dont do anything by half measures.
> 
> _Cool story!!!! And you're lucky you can still see, I've worked with high power optics 16" F3 mirrors so know the power of reflected light...._
> 
> Pics of the solar concentrator:



Answers in _italics_ above..... For what they're worth, I'm not a trained welder.....


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Thomas, thats a big help :beer: Much appreciated!


----------



## Gout

Bandito, it might be worth doing a short course in welding at your local tafe/trade school. I did one when i started to weld and it was a few nights over a few weeks, but you get lots of metal, gas etc to weld away. Esp with tig where you can contaminate the tip 

I did the mig course as i was working on cars and it helped, however i would not call myself a welder. Better to screw up so scrap than a nice new stainless conical, welding is an art-form and i don't think you can learn it from books.


----------



## Bandito

Thanks, I'm not sure if there is a tafe here 13 feet left of the black stump - aka batemans bay, but will check it out. I plan to have the scrap sent to me too and practice on that. But I think it will take a massive amount of practice to get a nice weld going. But since I draft steel buildings for a living, I think I should learn to weld anyway. I reackon going out in the yard to weld on a day off would be good. 

Can I weld normal mild steel with a tig welder? I have used a welder that had a welding stick in it - thats probably a tig right? It was easier than the mig I tried back in high school when I was 16yo! Couldnt get the feed/current right on that!

Yea, very newbi on the welding, but will hopefully learn some skills that will come in handy for all the intricate things that need doing - and there are several hundred of them in the current design! Hopefully doing it myself can reduce the costs, and if something doesnt work I can just redo it with no extra cost. 

My new hard drive didnt arrive today, so I am going to use my normal software to model a mock up MLT / KETTLE to show what I intend on doing.


----------



## Gout

sounds like Arc welding you speak of.... 

Tig i feel is the hardest, i can not tig weld, arc i am rather good at and Mig i was getting very good at however i have not welded for some time so i would be crap. I find welding like spray painting, there is a fine line between a nice weld and going a tiny bit too far and blowing holes. Like a good cook without a recipe its all about feeling you just know when its right - this takes a lot of time and practise

I am sure tig can weld mild steel, if you get a tig they normally have a stick attachment also and these are much nicer to use than the old transformer arcs.

All that said, it sounds like you may want someone else to weld it for you. Apart from Al welding it sounds like SS food grade welding is the second hardest welding (pressure vessels would be worse ofcourse)

again i am not a welder but i shudder when i see how easy they make it look, their welds look like smooth fluid welds - mine.... bird shit

good luck either way, but i would try welding before you outlay the money.

Lots of welding shops let you try their welders "try before you buy" (thats what i found) Why dont you go and have a chat and try - it might help you decide


----------



## Bandito

Thanks, some nice info there - very realistic and doubt I will achieve much better. But I do want to try, and try I will.

And I hope that if I try and try and try again and again I might be able to achieve it - I refuse to accept that I cant do something - so I guess I need to call the matrix for a download.


----------



## yardy

a shade 14 lens will be too dark for TIG, or it is for me anyway.

i suggest you take the advice above and get some training or better still get a shop to weld it for you, some people take to TIG like a duck to water, others, not so much.. stainless can be a little unforgiving if you don't watch your heat, I'd hate to see you fcuk your vessels.



just my opinion though


----------



## kirem

for what it is worth I started a TAFE welding course at night. I have to do the basic course in cutting, oxyacetylene welding/brazing, ARC and MIG before I can go on to the next course which can be TIG welding. I was told learning to weld with oxyacetylene is very good training for TIG. My course is based on number of hours welding. I go for 4 hours once a week for 26 weeks.

I hacked around in the shed before the course. It is enormous learning value to have a teacher show you how to weld, then I put a few welds down and then he points out what I am doing wrong and I concentrate on those areas, more welds, more faults etc etc before long you can put a good weld down. then they ask you to weld at difficult angles, different thicknesses etc. 

Unless you know what you are looking at a weld can look pretty good to the untrained eye and be full of faults and have no penetration.

I strongly suggest you get some training, perhaps if you have access to people that weld for a living, tell them what you want to do and ask them to teach you by looking at your welds and pointing out what is wrong with your welds and work on fixing those faults up, most of the time will be in practice. 

If you can find a TAFE to help you learn, once you have their trust that you are not a dickhead, good bet they allow you to do you project using their equipment!


----------



## praxis178

yardy said:


> a shade 14 lens will be too dark for TIG, or it is for me anyway.
> 
> i suggest you take the advice above and get some training or better still get a shop to weld it for you, some people take to TIG like a duck to water, others, not so much.. stainless can be a little unforgiving if you don't watch your heat, I'd hate to see you fcuk your vessels.
> 
> 
> 
> just my opinion though



Funny started with a shade 13 found it too bright, but I use an auto darkening mask, so set it to 15 and it's about right for me, it really is a personal thing, if you have great night vision go darker, if not you will have to go lighter, but probably no lighter than 13.... So yeah it is a subjective thing, and your workshop lighting also plays a big part, the darker the it is the more contrast you have, so you can go darker.

I found mig to be the hardest to learn (did the basic TAFE welding course) and tig to be rather like brazing which I had been doing for many years.....

If you haven't done any welding before, DO THE COURSE even if it means an hour or two in the car each week (I lived 60kms from the TAFE I went to).


----------



## Bandito

Heres a pic of the idea for the kettle and mlt - I think its way too strong. Just the straight part (not including the conical part) is 94L, but it is a bit fat so will make taller. Currently 27Kg using 2mm stainless, will probably go down to 1mm.
Also measured up the fridge. The volume of the straight part of the fermenter is coming in at 87L.

Still early days, but at least I have finally got something half decent in the model.


----------



## praxis178

Bandito said:


> Heres a pic of the idea for the kettle and mlt - I think its way too strong. Just the straight part (not including the conical part) is 94L, but it is a bit fat so will make taller. Currently 27Kg using 2mm stainless, will probably go down to 1mm.
> Also measured up the fridge. The volume of the straight part of the fermenter is coming in at 87L.
> 
> Still early days, but at least I have finally got something half decent in the model.



The kettle looks a bit over engineered, but that's just a gut thing so don't mind me. :lol: 

Go 1mm for the walls, 2mm for the cone section and ribs, and only have the ribs on the cone section and it will probably still be more than strong enough. Definitely a reason to invest in some FEA software if you can!


----------



## Bandito

Yea, thats a standard design for a 400 ton coal bin. With that design the whole thing should be strong enough with 0.05mm sheet! The thickness would be more determined by the weldability than the strength I think - but then there is cost too.

I do think the vertical stiffeners and horizontal ring stiffeners will reduce the stresses on the internal welds. So the joins between the straight and conical section will be reinforced by the 3mm continuous fillet weld allround on the horizontal ring stiffener. The lower vertical stiffeners are more to stiffen the bottom flange. And looking closer it seems it may need two stiffeners close to each bolt - which doubles the stiffeners. Looking at the attached pic, it seems there is a 3mm gap between the bottom flange and the butterfly bolt lugs - this gap might need to be filled with a high temp silicon compressible gasket. Just modeled the teflon seat which is in yellow.

The owner of my rental property came over today to re-attach the inside glass of the oven. And he used high temp red silicon from a caulking gun. That got me thinking about using that to seal between the stainless vessel and the teflon seat. I really dont think it will seal by itsself. I'm more inclined to get a silicon gasket atm, which should be standard.

Would love to get hold of a trial version of strand. Not sure if I will enlist the services of the strand engineers from my last job. Will probably just over engineer it so it lasts into my 90's.

Also atached is an overall view of the laundry so show what space I'm trying to fit it into. Havent placed anything apart from the kettle and fridge in months, so its mostly out of date.

3D MODEL ATTACHED ALSO: open widows explorer web browser, but doesnt work on all pc's. 











View attachment jessica_brewery_4.zip


----------



## Jono_w

Hey mate,

Designs looking good.
I have concerns with all those fillet welds needed on the vertical and horizontal stiffeners the tank, these will be very difficult to weld without it warping the tank/cone significantly. Welding stainless sheet is a constant battle with warping. The cone has plenty of strength to hold a well made and welded flange without the stiffeners I think. Also, don't believe everything that fancy CAD software tells you, I have seen many situations of things totally over engineered to a point where they are not viable. I think a 3mm bottom flange with 1.6mm cone with no stiffeners would be more than adequate.

Cheers.


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Jonathon, I neglected to add the weld specification for the stiffeners. I agree that warping will be an issue. I was thinking of tack welding the vertical stiffeners on the straight section followed by a stitch weld - something along the lines of 50mm on, 150mm off, staggered on both sides, coming back and filling up the gaps - or mabee not coming back and filling up the gaps. Would that sound viable? Was intent on 3mm cfw allround on the lower vertical stiffeners though. There is a 3mm chamfer (cut) at all welded corners.

Unfortunately, this is just my main software I use at work, and it doesnt tell me anything - apart from clashes between steel and between steel and bolts - and the current setup does have a clash between the bolts and the first horizontal ring stiffener, so with the present setup will have to install the bolts from the bottom. It also looks like I need a manifold on the bottom of the butterfly to direct the grain and hops to a single false bottom then the drain.

It is hard to tell how strong something is. I keep thinking about my 35L SS pot, and it seems so strong, but when I look at this in the model without stiffeners it looks weak - I guess its my lack of experience on thin walled vessels.

A 3mm bottom flange with no stiffeners? you are probably right, especially if the torque on the bolts isnt that great, but I am planning on making them very tight - perhaps I should reconsider that.

Still quite early in the design, so everything can change. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Bandito

Having some slight space issues :huh: moving the fridge next to the door should free some up though, didnt think it would fit.


----------



## bum

Easy solution. What is more important? Beer or clean clothes?

Look at how much space you just freed up!


----------



## Bandito

No Bum, I will not be washing clothes by hand - that why automation was invented!

Theres now enough space for a nice fat 140L HLT. Was going to model the supports and bung with drain and heat shield for the plaster walls, but first I need to figure out how to support these butterflys.


----------



## Bandito

I am growing pretty concerned regarding the power requirements of 100L OG boils to attain 80L in the fermenter. With 4 fridges and 1 pc on all the time, and the need to use a microwave for coffees, food etc, and only having 2 x 2400W fuses in the place, I reackon I only have 1 x 2400W circuit available.

I do have an electric oven in the kitchen, but havent seen the plug so I guess its hiding behind the oven itsself with no way to get to it.

So as I see it, my options are:

1/ Pulling out the oven and trying to install a double adapter - probably a real dangerous exercise as there is gas going into the stovetop.
2/ Getting some high drain 12V batteries and charging them either from the 240V circuit with a transformer and a solar charger or also getting solar panels, then using a high power inverter (12Volts to 240Volts) to power the setup.
3/ Getting the owner to install another circuit (he was over on the weekend but I chickend out asking because I only have a week left on the lease and didnt want to freak him out.
4/ A fuel powered generator (but that would have to be kept outside for the fumes) and I would have to leave the door open for the power cord and roaches and vermin and spiders so I think thats out.

So far the second option seems the most viable (apart from the cost of batteries - they are not cheap). But it would be cool to have like 4800W of 240volt power available for an hour when the power goes out - could also be a start to a solar power setup.

Any other ideas? And how much power would I need for a 100L boil?


----------



## Doogiechap

I can't recall if you have moved since your issues with your neighbours but you could befriend them and sling a decent extension cable over the fence and pay them for the privilege. It would be significantly cheaper than any of the other options. Your oven will most likely be hard wired and after your previous efforts with your reg and benchtop it may be best to steer clear from that option h34r:


----------



## LethalCorpse

Doogiechap said:


> I can't recall if you have moved since your issues with your neighbours but you could befriend them and sling a decent extension cable over the fence and pay them for the privilege. It would be significantly cheaper than any of the other options. Your oven will most likely be hard wired and after your previous efforts with your reg and benchtop it may be best to steer clear from that option h34r:


It also has the advantage of being spectacularly illegal and excitingly dangerous. Not quite as thrillingly suicidal or technologically impossible as some of the other proposed options, though.

I've stayed out of tthis thread for a bit because I was asked politely and, frankly, it wasn't sporting. But alas, I'm compelled to once again stick my oar in. 

Solar power doesn't work. It doesn't ever work economically, and only rarely works for individuals in very specific situations with low draws, large government rebates, and grid connection. IT CAN NOT HELP HERE.

Charging batteries off the mains is just as infeasible, though. You'll need about 9600 watt hours worth of batteries and a 5kW+ inverter. Let us know how that works out for you.

Your oven circuit is off-limits, and messing with it is pretty much guaranteed to result in a Darwin award. You're not that ******* stupid, so stop saying things which suggest you might be.

If you get the circuit upgraded, you'll need a dedicated 20A circuit, or better yet, a small three phase supply. It would be nice, but it doesn't sound like your landlord is going to come to the party there.

If it absolutely must be electric, get a big bastard genny. Otherwise, it's time for gas. I'm sure there's room in this project's budget for some actuated gas valves.


----------



## schooey

I'm so terribly sorry, but....

Bwahahahahahahahahaha......ha...ha....hmmm

Bwahaha some more...

....ahhhh....haha....herrrrrrr.

Like I said, I'm sorry, but some of the outlandish suggestions and sheer stupidity in this thread really is astounding. I don't think my eyes have watered so much since discovering the penthouse forums at about age 14


----------



## Bandito

Still living nextto the dogs, but they are a lot better behaved now. Hmmm, steal power from the neighbours eh? Nice Idea! Now just need to distract the dogs while theyre at the pub! Joking, but nice idea. The neighbours downstairs are friendly, so they would be up for it, but would involve leaving the door open for the cable, so same as a generator. But yes, that would be the cheapest option.

Downstairs neighbours are having a party atm - oh, hangon, think they just turned off the music! Guess its bedtime.

Some maths: 2400W for 1 hour = 2.4KWh
assuming a 300 amp hour (AH) battery degraded to 200AH because it will be drained in an hour rather than the 100 hours needed to achieve the 300AH rating
200AH @ 12 volts = 2400Watts
So will need at least 1 x 300Amp Hour (300AH) 12Volt battery to get even close. Probably two taking ineffiencies into acount, and further degradation of the battery rating due to the fast drain time. A more realistic figure for amperage when drained in an hour might be closer to 150AH.

Just started looking at these batteries for the first time in a few years, and so far they seem to around the $1000 mark :blink: . But I'm sure I saw them a few years ago (after a lot of searching) for around $600.


----------



## Bandito

LethalCorpse said:


> It also has the advantage of being spectacularly illegal and excitingly dangerous. Not quite as thrillingly suicidal or technologically impossible as some of the other proposed options, though.
> 
> I've stayed out of tthis thread for a bit because I was asked politely and, frankly, it wasn't sporting. But alas, I'm compelled to once again stick my oar in.
> 
> Solar power doesn't work. It doesn't ever work economically, and only rarely works for individuals in very specific situations with low draws, large government rebates, and grid connection. IT CAN NOT HELP HERE.
> 
> Charging batteries off the mains is just as infeasible, though. You'll need about 9600 watt hours worth of batteries and a 5kW+ inverter. Let us know how that works out for you.
> 
> Your oven circuit is off-limits, and messing with it is pretty much guaranteed to result in a Darwin award. You're not that ******* stupid, so stop saying things which suggest you might be.
> 
> If you get the circuit upgraded, you'll need a dedicated 20A circuit, or better yet, a small three phase supply. It would be nice, but it doesn't sound like your landlord is going to come to the party there.
> 
> If it absolutely must be electric, get a big bastard genny. Otherwise, it's time for gas. I'm sure there's room in this project's budget for some actuated gas valves.



Thanks lethal, I was just thinking about you for some reason! Yea, wont touch the oven circuit.

9600AH of batteries ay? Know where to sourse these from at the cheapest price?

The ability to heat seems to be the limiting factor on the volume. I wont go gas as it has been designed for electric due to the butterfly valves at the bottom. 

I am thinking a trickle charge for the batteries, as 80L would last me 2 months, so only 6 brews a year. Then as you say, a 5KW inverter or two 2.4KW ones. Its not about getting the power cheap at night, more about making this possible - or more to the point working out what volume boils I can do.


----------



## LethalCorpse

Then it's got to be a generator, if the landlord won't throw in a 3PH outlet. Your best chance is probably to convince him to let you install it at your cost, though I still wouldn't hold my breath


----------



## Bandito

Edited my post just then.

The lanlord might do it, but I wont hold my breath either! And it would be at my cost. One week left on the lease until another 12 month one, so I will wait until then to ask. But even then I'll be like 
'Can I have a 20A power point in the laundry please?' 
'Why the fuch would you want that?' 
'So I can set up an automated brewery to boil 100L at a time' 
'Your going to burn my house down! No bloody way!' 


I have also just installed windows 7 on a 600GB Velociraptor which is now known as Jessica. This system is solely for the automated brewery and should help reduce lag time in the automation. You probably have an SD though lethal, so I doubt you will be impressed. Let the automation begin.


----------



## unrealeous

Bandito said:


> I have also just installed windows 7 on a 600GB Velociraptor which is now known as Jessica. This system is solely for the automated brewery and should help reduce lag time in the automation.


All computers wait at the same speed.


----------



## Bandito

Aparently windows has some inherent issues that make it far from a realtime system. Could go a realtime linux system but I'm sure windows will be fast enough. It's the valves that get opened and closed really fast to dose the cleaning chemicals that may get opened for 1/2 second longer, but that shouldnt be too bad.

So how much power would I need for a 100L boil? 4800W? I'm sure its at its peak bringing it up to boil, can can drop down once boil is achieved. 

I'm about to start modeling the brewery in solidworks. It has better resolution and is more suited to making unwrapped templates for cutting the conical section out of flat sheet and getting proper volumes and has motion simulation so I can see the butterfly and false bottom rotating.


----------



## yardy

are you really considering building this in a rented property ?


----------



## Bandito

Yea! Dont worry, it will have plenty of safeguargs. Plenty of temperature sensors placed around the brewery to sense the ambiant temperatures to cut off power when an anomaly is detected. Smoke alarm hooked up to a fire extinguisher (just thought of that this week - just hope I dont burn the toast!). And the whole thing sitting over a stainless bung that drains into the floor drain. Also a polished stainless back and sides to reflect away from the walls and allow hosing down without getting a drop on the walls. And yes, still in the laundry


----------



## Gout

Sounds like for the cost of this little gem, you could have bought a house


----------



## Bandito

Not yet, but then again its not finnished. I would prefer a fully automated brewery to a house anyway. I'm planning on buying a strip club before a house too! Thats the dream, fully automated brewery in a strip club :icon_drunk: :icon_drool2: 

I doubt I will ever run it when not at home, so there is an extra safeguard. Will take lots of brews to trust it completely, and by then it'll be in a shed so the damage wont be so bad.

Actually, I do have a small shed out the back. And the owner would be infinity times more likely to install a 3 phase out there given what I am doing. Could be a go. 

Edit: But would also need water plumbed in and a drain into the sewridge line.


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> I'm planning on buying a strip club before a house too! Thats the dream, fully automated brewery in a strip club :icon_drunk: :icon_drool2:



:lol: 

Very funny ...

I get it now - this whole thread has been one enormous joke ...


----------



## Bandito

Yea, I spend thousands importing pinch and butterfly valves, hundreds of hours developing the pfd and modeling the brewery all in preparation for next aprils fools day! Probably could fool a few, heres a rendered pic of the kitchen of my last rental house: (I modeled it in 3d including the kitchen sink which was modeled in solidworks) and some people did think it was an actual photo. 













I modeled the whole house in 3d, not all to the level of the kitchen though. When I left I broke my lease half way through the 4th 12 month lease, so I made a floor plan of the house and the agent posted it on realestate.com.au and now, there is a floorplan option for rental properties (so its possible I started that trend). Sadly, I lost the model when I accidently wiped my external harddrive a year ago. Took 40 hours to model the sink, and over a hundred for the house.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Thats the dream, fully automated brewery in a strip club





not so much a strip club, maybe a _*topless*_ bar when you blow the ******* roof off.. :icon_cheers: 

good luck with that one cobber


----------



## goomboogo

Bandito said:


> Yea! Dont worry, it will have plenty of safeguargs. Plenty of temperature sensors placed around the brewery to sense the ambiant temperatures to cut off power when an anomaly is detected. Smoke alarm hooked up to a fire extinguisher (just thought of that this week - just hope I dont burn the toast!). And the whole thing sitting over a stainless bung that drains into the floor drain. Also a polished stainless back and sides to reflect away from the walls and allow hosing down without getting a drop on the walls. And yes, still in the laundry



I could be wrong but I think Yardy was thinking about the having to shift the thing if the lease is not renewed. That and the general craziness of doing something like this in somebody else's house.


----------



## Lilo

I have to print this thread and make a book out of it.... Add a few cartoon style picies of roofs blowing off etc...  

It'll sell like hotcakes.......

Priceless


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> not so much a strip club, maybe a _*topless*_ bar when you blow the ******* roof off.. :icon_cheers:
> 
> good luck with that one cobber



Like the new avatar Yardy!

The only explosive thing in the brewery is the grain dust, and it was pointed out to me early (by bigfridge and one other) that that the grain dust could result in 'raging lactic fermentations' and my answer to that is to filter the dust from the air and protect the dust from sparks and motors. So given that I did work experience at an explosive factory, I should know how to prevent grain dust explosions and other explosions for that matter. Did have to sit through training videos on pipa alpha and some others too.

Are there any other potential explosive issues I am overlooking? As far as I can see, the main hazard is prolonged current draw through the mains power circuit that could heat up the wires in the walls and cause a fire that way - but anyone that uses electricity to boil would have that problem, no?




goomboogo said:


> I could be wrong but I think Yardy was thinking about the having to shift the thing if the lease is not renewed. That and the general craziness of doing something like this in somebody else's house.



Oh yea! almost forgot to design it to be able to fit through a door. Although I do respect the place as if it were someone elses - and it is. Technically, it is mine for the term of the lease. The owner has insurance - I should probably take some out too, just to make sure. But with me watching over it like a hawke, and you guys also watching over it over the live streaing cam I doubt much could go horribly wrong. 



Lilo said:


> I have to print this thread and make a book out of it.... Add a few cartoon style picies of roofs blowing off etc...
> 
> It'll sell like hotcakes.......
> 
> Priceless



What does this button do?


----------



## MVZOOM

I admire your ability to 3D render and model, however do not think you have the in-depth skill - through the variety of desciplines required - to pull this off. Safety for yourself, others around you, the potential property damage and suchlike would be my primary concern. Secondary to this, I don't think you have a full grasp on the actual brewing process, which would give you the ability to think laterally about the challenges you face; you have not seen the issues yet, so would not know how to mitigate them. 

You obviously have an enquiring and challenging mind, it's just a shame that IMHO you won't meet your goal with this one.

Cheers - Mike


----------



## ArnieW

Bandito, you will be disappointed if your power circuit is only 4800W for a 100litre boil. With 2400W, 20-25 litres is about the max volume. I currently do 45 litre boils with 3600W and I'd like a bit more for ramping up to boil. You'd need 7200W minimum to achieve your goal.

I thought if you were building a fully automated rig, you could run it 24/7? If that is the case, why not scale it down and really make it portable?


----------



## Bandito

Thanks for the info Arnie, yea I now realise I should be a bit more realistic. As I was going through the thread on the weekend I saw a reply saying he did 30L boils with 2400W. I'll aim for 20 to 30L boils to make up 80L ferments. It will simplify the hlt, mlt, and kettle. Could use my existing 35L pot as hlt, and can go back to using standard flanges and pipe. Got a bit cought up in the bling. Damn you electricity! Will still try to get another circuit though.

Ordered some more stuff yesterday:

plate chiller
300mm False bottom
2 x 8 relay boards - will be a start to automating something, they are FR88 model which have a PIC16F84 as the brains. http://fcelectronics.ecrater.com/p/3361529...y-board-8-input . But now think it would be easier to get a pci card http://daqstuff.com/ni_components.htm
1 x automated dog food dispenser for grain dispense - this is a different type than I have seen before and looks promising.


----------



## Frank

Have you worked out how the false bottom will sit in your mash tun yet? It will need to be high enough to allow the butterfly valve to open, but also be able to move to allow spent grain to drop out. An option could be to incorporate the false bottom into the actual butterfly but that may be an expensive operation if it does not work.


----------



## schooey

About the only long bow you could draw between this little adventure of yours and Piper Alpha would be that a whole bunch of experienced people tried to give both you and Occidental some good advice and you both failed to listen and it's probably going to cost you both a lot of money to learn a lesson...speaking in relative terms. Let's just hope you have less casualties


----------



## Bandito

Yea Boston. pivoted on a horizontal axl with pointed ends that fit into countersinks half drilled into the vessel wall with tabs on the sides extending down to the disk, hopefully wont need to actually fix to the disk.

Thanks for the support schooey. :beerbang:


----------



## schooey

Ha! No worries, dude...thanks for the car crash entertainment


----------



## matho

Bandito said:


> 1 x automated dog food dispenser for grain dispense - this is a different type than I have seen before and looks promising.



do you mean the one that was in 'Back to the future I'  

sorry every time i think of an automatic dog food dispenser i think of that

cheer's matho


----------



## beerbrewer76543

So many negative Nancys on this forum!


----------



## roger mellie

schooey said:


> About the only long bow you could draw between this little adventure of yours and Piper Alpha would be that a whole bunch of experienced people tried to give both you and Occidental some good advice and you both failed to listen and it's probably going to cost you both a lot of money to learn a lesson...speaking in relative terms. Let's just hope you have less casualties



Completely OT - but I dont know if anyone was giving Occidental much advice. The north sea was a pretty gung ho place back then. Mix that with cheapskate american operators, production before safety, quite a few human factors - there were a load of near misses around that time.

I worked on Saltire ,Claymore and Piper Bravo and met a couple of people who survived Piper Alpha - paid particular attention to Banditos quip that he knows about explosions because he watched the video on PA. Like thats going to help.

Im all for innovation but this thread is completely hatstand.

RM


----------



## absinthe

have you tested the circuits in the laundry? you might find you have both circuits in the room or in the wall so you could add another point. as for touching the oven an immediate death sentience thats going a little far, im sure you know how to pull a fuse and throw a breaker before touching it. 

i also thought a standard circuit was 16amp not 10 that would give you 3.8Kw to play with. you might get a boil with this just make sure the kettle is really well insulated


----------



## katzke

Fun to read this thread. As I recall it started with a brewery that would brew 5 liters and fit in the space of a fridge. Now it is up to 100 liters and the size of a room.

He still has no idea what he is doing and will not listen to any advice.

I swore I would not ever post again but I guess I was drawn into it by his cohorts or those that will not read all the pages.

The only reason I read it, is it is fun to see how wild he gets in his design and assumptions.

He wanted to brew 5-liter batches because he does not drink much, now he wants to brew 100 liters and I have no idea why he made the switch. He is willing to spend 40 hours drawing a kitchen sink in a house he no longer lives in for the fun of it.

Next I expect him to claim he invented the internet. Wait someone has already claimed that!


----------



## cdbrown

OT
Ahh Piper Alpha - the reason why I have a job that pays well. If it wasn't for that and subsequent Cullen report the UK HSE wouldn't have implemented the requirement to prove a case for safety. Performing formal safety assessments for offshore installations and then writing safety cases is my bread and butter.

Back on topic
Bandito - maybe you need to have a bit of a sit down and a hard think about what you actually want from the rig, what the constraints are and try to work within that. You may actually get something up and running before long....or you can keep going the way you are and end up not building a rig.

Maybe consider fully automated BIAB? That's pretty challenging


----------



## unrealeous

In Every Element of Genius, There an Element of Madness...


----------



## bum

katzke said:


> Fun to read this thread. As I recall it started with a brewery that would brew 5 liters and fit in the space of a fridge. Now it is up to 100 liters and the size of a room.
> 
> He still has no idea what he is doing and will not listen to any advice.
> 
> I swore I would not ever post again but I guess I was drawn into it by his cohorts or those that will not read all the pages.
> 
> The only reason I read it, is it is fun to see how wild he gets in his design and assumptions.
> 
> He wanted to brew 5-liter batches because he does not drink much, now he wants to brew 100 liters and I have no idea why he made the switch. He is willing to spend 40 hours drawing a kitchen sink in a house he no longer lives in for the fun of it.
> 
> Next I expect him to claim he invented the internet. Wait someone has already claimed that!


 
Talking about him like he isn't here is also especially rewarding.


----------



## Bandito

Ordered a 40 relay RS485 controller today from http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-RS485-40-Channel-R...=item41517bdcdd

That should be more than enough relays to control the pinch valves. I need to actuate them at a high voltage then switch to a lower voltage, so I need two relays per valve.


Yea, Absinthe, you are correct, the fuses are 16amp, its the lights that are only 10amp!


----------



## LethalCorpse

Bandito said:


> Yea, Absinthe, you are correct, the fuses are 16amp, its the lights that are only 10amp!


Yes, he's correct, the fuses on the power circuit are 16A. He also clearly knows nothing about the electrical safety regulations, or much more to the point, the reasons for them.

If you want a 15A or 20A outlet, they must go on their own dedicated circuit. Nothing else may be run on your oven circuit, and you would be particularly stupid to attempt to tap into the back of it for power, whether or not you had the sense to flick the breaker first.


----------



## bum

LethalCorpse said:


> If you want a 15A or 20A outlet, they must go on their own dedicated circuit. Nothing else may be run on your oven circuit, and you would be particularly stupid to attempt to tap into the back of it for power, whether or not you had the sense to flick the breaker first.


 
Yeah, Bandito. As amusing as some of your escapades might be I'd hate to see a new and improved "stupidly dangerous thing I did with my kitchen stove today" thread.


----------



## Bandito

I wont be touching the oven circuit - the gasfitter replaced one of the copper hoses to the gas bottle and retuned the regs, and it now has a hell fire flame which should boil a lot faster - is a bit hard to get it to light though. :unsure: 

The two power point fuses I have - the ones that power the computer and fridges are each 16amp. So how much can I draw from these? As I stated earlier I am a bit concerned at the heat that is generated inside the walls of the house. Can I draw the full 16amp or just 10amp?


----------



## LethalCorpse

10A


----------



## Bandito

Thanks lethal, much appreciated, will keep it to 10A. Any info on those electrical safety regulations and the reasons for them please.


----------



## LethalCorpse

It's all explained pretty thoroughly in AS/NZS 3000:2009, but you can get a brief introduction by doing an apprenticeship as an electrician or an engineering degree. In the meantime, keep it below 10A.


----------



## Bandito

Well, I have always believed it to be because the wires in the walls are only rated at 10A, and even they heat up a bit. If I run an electric heater at 2400W the cable gets quite warm. Then there is the sockets and plugs that are only rated at 10A. So drawing over 10A would heat up the wires going through the walls and could start a fire that goes up the inside of the wall in into the roof, and there is no stopping that.

I believe the 16A fuse is there for fault conditions where an appliance is faulty. Also allows for very short periods to run a microwave at the same time as a kettle. I'm always careful not to run the toaster at the same time as the kettle. Edit: I am always telling people off for that.


----------



## bum

Are you, like, trying to make him punch his monitor?


----------



## schooey

See, bum, talking like he's not here is much more monitor friendly....


----------



## Jono_w

Protection devices such as wire fuses and Circuit breakers in your switchboard are designed to protect the cabling. Nothing else...


----------



## Bandito

Not at all. Thats my opinion, and think its at least 80% correct.

While we are on the subject of monitors... I did a bad thing today.. I bought a couple of 3d monitors and 3d glasses. There goes the brewery funds! But the monitors were on special for 299 ea. and I have wanted one for like 4 years, but were between 2.5k and 7.5k. 3d stereoscopic brewery modeling here I come  . May not have the brewery as soon as I had hoped, but it will be realistic. 

Yea, but its stereo!


----------



## bum

Ok. Now you're trying to make everyone else punch their monitors.

Dude. Focus! I can't be the only one who actually wants to see this thing make Frankenstein beer, can I?


----------



## Gout

i would look at your insurance - as far as i was told, if anything is connected to my mains that's not "legal" eg passes the legal certs. then my insurance would not cover me.

I might be wrong, but a custom brewery, wired up by a home owner without the tests/paperwork etc may not be covered by insurance if lets say ..... you burn the house down


----------



## Bandito

It will be checked by a licensed and registered electrician, and probably even wired too, just to make it semi legal. Should be able to get a professor mate to checkover the whole system as he is qualified in automation stuff and can certify it. Yea, probably should do that. He can check the code and the labview setup and add some more advanced safeguards and tweaks. 

I also tried to order another 8 of those pic controlled relay boards today using the link I posted a few pages back, but the postage came out at $47,000. So just sent an email requesting a more realistic postage of $30.

Gotta watch these internet sites!


----------



## yardy

got yourself booked in for the welding course at TAFE yet ?


----------



## Bandito

I did have a look during lunch today, but no short courses that I can see. The welding courses have a length of 36 - whatever that is. Hope its hours and not weeks. Seems to be held in moryura which is a good $50 cab ride each way. Would be cheaper to employ the teacher myself for a few days.. h34r: not looking for a qualification, just the skills. Gonna have to get the teacher on the phone and work out a price.


----------



## schooey

I'm a very soon to be unemployed boilermaker, Bandy... I'll make you deal! You buy the cheapo virgin/jetstar tickets from newy to melbexico, return and I'll do my best to impart as much weldology as I can. Maybe we could get a 'people who want to see bandito actually brew some beer' working bee/brewday/BBQ event going so I don't have to go hungry for the weekend...


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> Ordered a 40 relay RS485 controller today from http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-RS485-40-Channel-R...=item41517bdcdd
> 
> That should be more than enough relays to control the pinch valves. I need to actuate them at a high voltage then switch to a lower voltage, so I need two relays per valve.



I wouldn't dream of talking about Bandito as though he wasn't here - so I will ask him directly: Do you even know what RS485 is ?

And what 'high voltage' are you switching ? You have bought relays that need 12 volts to actuate - but what are the contacts rated ie current and voltage ?

As much as I hate to see people wasting their money, I hate to see anyone waste themselves or their neighbours even more. My final piece of advice would be to put this project aside for a few years and sit playing with your 3D monitors. At least you won't hurt anything and who knows one day you may even have the experience and maturity to see where you are going wrong. You are very keen, but no amount of keeness can replace maturity.

You remind me of the old-spice add currently doing the viral rounds:

Look over there - a bottle of beer, now back to me holding an automatic pill dispenser. See my 3D monitors sitting on my teflon coated valves, now back to me with my dog feeder and 5 litre brewery. I can draw, I am living out of my car as I am now homeless.


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> Thanks lethal, much appreciated, will keep it to 10A. Any info on those electrical safety regulations and the reasons for them please.



Do yourself a favour and google up 'in-rush current'.


----------



## schooey

Sheesh....way to spoil my junket to Melbourne, Dave!










...did laugh-out-Loyd at the Old Spice analogy though :lol:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

schooey said:


> Sheesh....way to spoil my junket to Melbourne, Dave!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...did laugh-out-Loyd at the Old Spice analogy though :lol:


Plenty of job's over here ! Got to pay your own way over and promise to go back one day  
GB


----------



## schooey

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Plenty of job's over here ! Got to pay your own way over and promise to go back one day
> GB



*crosses arms in front of self*

NO DEAL!!!


----------



## thelastspud

schooey said:


> 'people who want to see bandito actually brew some beer'




I'm one of these people. I reckon we'll see something pretty impressive one day


----------



## yardy

schooey said:


> I'm a very soon to be unemployed boilermaker



no shortage of work up here schooey, fair bit of construction down your way at the moment though.


----------



## Bandito

:lol: 

Relays are switching 12 and 6 and 4.5 volts. RS485 is a communications bus that can span up to 1200m.


----------



## Margwar

A 16A circut can safley draw 16A over that circut, but not from the one power point as they are only rated to 10A.
So on the one circut you could have one 1800w element in one outlet and another 1800w element in another outlet. That gives you a total of 3600w of heating. The current draw from the circut is 15A which is under the 16A of the circut, and is safe *as long as you use two different outlets*.
All circuts in your house are designed like this.... you could have a fridge, microwave, TV, computers, portable heaters and more going, all plugged into different outlets, but drawing current from the same power circut. This could be drawing more than 10A from that circut easily... but the circut is rated to safley draw 16A. 
This was how I was planning to build my next HLT, but using 2 1500w elements from 2 outlets in my shed.

The trouble though I can see is that your mains into your apartment will probaly not be rated to draw all this power all the time, and you may not be able to turn anything else on whilst the brewery is brewing... so if you want to cook while you are brewing, you may be in trouble. Or even if the fridge came on... or your heater... could be a concern.


----------



## bigfridge

Bradley said:


> I'm one of these people. I reckon we'll see something pretty impressive one day


----------



## yardy

i think that will impart too much roastiness..


----------



## bigfridge

yardy said:


> i think that will impart too much roastiness..



With a touch of smoke .... :beerbang:


----------



## bill_gill85

bigfridge said:


>



What size kettle can I fit on that burner?


----------



## Supra-Jim

bigfridge said:


>



hmm... needs more 3d modelling i think!

Cheers SJ


----------



## goomboogo

Supra-Jim said:


> hmm... needs more 3d modelling i think!
> 
> Cheers SJ



Good job with the modelling. The fireman are perfectly rendered.


----------



## Bandito

If ya cant beet em, join em.

What does this button do? 






And my other project that I dont think I have mentioned here before: ipods for cows. Patent pending. As you can see, its currently undergoing animal trials. It also has a remote control feature to automate the rounding up of the cows. Only 6 cows in queensland have then atm, but they are solar powered and are showing promise so far.


----------



## bum

yardy said:


> i think that will impart too much roastiness..


 
Gold.


----------



## Bandito

Some stuff arrived today: 3d monitors look great - so much bigger and better than the other 22" monitors I was using (they are samsung 2233RZ (Search staticice.com.au for cheapest prices on all hardware))- glasses due next week, 10 x .35 micron nominal filters thanks to the bulk buy, 12 usb to com port cables for the pic controlled relay boards, and most important of all - an automatic pet feeder!

The mechanism in the pet feeder looks perfect, dont know why I didnt think of it before. Camera is flat atm, but will test it during tomorrows brew day.

Seems like a lot of people are getting into preheating strike water for when they get up on brew day. Seems to me like one of these ($115) could be filled with the precracked grain bill and controlled by one of the pic controlled relay boards (US$65) that is turned on by a 12V transformer plugged into a 240V timer. Once I have my setup going I will have to program a pic to do it - remind me if your interested. Could shave another 60 to 90 mins off brew day. 

Labview should be able to make the programming for the pic and download it easy as, but failing that I started programing pic microcontrollers like 14 years ago, and also for the cow ipods too, and it is pretty simple - the timing delay loops are the hardest part.


----------



## jakub76

> 3d monitors look great ... Search staticice.com.au


Fat Chance.

Just curious about the .35 micron filter. As I understand it 'nominal' means it will filter out 90% of particles larger than the stated size. From memory, info from the BN suggests that 5-7 microns is enough to clear the yeast, 3 will pull out the haze and 1 will effect flavour. It was in one of The Session mini topics and Tasty said he uses a 7 micron filter. 

I notice that '1 micron absolute' seems a popular choice on this forum. As someone considering filtering for quicker conditioning I'm curious...has anyone done the pepsi challenge to see how a 1 micron filter effects flavour?


----------



## Bandito

jakub76 said:


> Fat Chance.
> 
> Just curious about the .35 micron filter. As I understand it 'nominal' means it will filter out 90% of particles larger than the stated size. From memory, info from the BN suggests that 5-7 microns is enough to clear the yeast, 3 will pull out the haze and 1 will effect flavour. It was in one of The Session mini topics and Tasty said he uses a 7 micron filter.
> 
> I notice that '1 micron absolute' seems a popular choice on this forum. As someone considering filtering for quicker conditioning I'm curious...has anyone done the pepsi challenge to see how a 1 micron filter effects flavour?



Staticice is just a search engine that searches all aussie pc shops for the lowest price (just thougt it may help someone).

Havent done the taste test, but speaking to Smashin who is doing the bulk buy, he said that the .35 nominal was equivalent to about 0.85 absolute for these filters. They do have heaps more pleats(folds) so the beer has a lot more surface area to pass through before blocking. They are claimed to have almost zero pressure drop. If I get large enough ferment volumes they might be disposable, but most likely 2 brews each (@ ~5 to 6 brews per year)

I have tried a 1 micron polyspun filter, but that didnt clear shit! Its the pleated ones that work.


----------



## schooey

Hey Banano,

I got one of those fangled Peter Brock Energy Polariser's sitting here in the shed somewhere, imagine how good that'll make all your 3D modelled gizmos go! PM me and I'll do you a sweet deal on it...


----------



## Bandito

Thanks, but I think I'll pass on the dirty peter brock jockstrap thankyou.

I am planning on making one of those iron man energy modules with lights an all just to make it look like thats what is powering the brewery. What are they called again?


----------



## bum

It's just a battery. It does have a cool light that does nothing though.

You should think about getting some of those for your kit.


----------



## Bandito

Incase someone missed it..  Schooey, I'm looking in your direction>>>



Bandito said:


> /SNIP
> During the week, I met a bloke that works for the local sheet metal fabricator. He said they are currently fabricating stainless stuff, and so can fabricate my vessels (probably from the scrap of their current work). So it looks like I now have a fabricator.
> Unless anyone here wants some work!!!! I asked before, but the offer still stands for the next few weeks, I dont need an expert, just someone willing to give it a shot!
> 
> /SNIP


----------



## jakub76

> ~5 to 6 brews per year


really? unless you already make awesome beer with little room for improvement I think this could be another signpost on the bad road you're travelling down. I imagine you like beer - maybe I'm wrong but let's pretend - I would think you would get the itch to try brewing at least 5 different styles of beer over the course of a whole year...at least.

Unless you refine and repeat your attempts they are not going to improve. In the last 6 months, along with brewing a variety of beer styles, I have been tweaking two of my favourite recipes - over 4-5 generations they have improved considerably. If I was going by your brewing schedule that would have taken me 4 or 5 years.

Now, as fun as it is to drink a six pack and hang shit on bandito, I'm not just having a go...ok maybe just a bit...but dude, I think you should seriously consider prioritizing the quality of your beer before frothing over the toys. Maybe consider Nick's example of 10 litre batches, that way you'll get a lot of practice in and hopefully find a recipe worthy of you 100 litre automated behemoth.
Best.


----------



## Bandito

Yea, I do agree with you Jakub. I was thinking about this during the week, and realised that I do want more than one brew on tap at once.

So I narrowed it down to how long it takes to ferment. So that's about 3 to 4 weeks. So there is my maximum fermenting frequency (unless I go 2 fermenters which I intend to in the future). So in 4 weeks @ 10L per week for drinkin, thats 40L.

But I do want some lag time, so I dont want to have to do a brew every 4 weeks or else I run out, so assuming a 50% laziness factor... Thats a bit concervative as I am as lazy as they come, so realistically, lets say 100% laziness, so thats 1 brew every 8 weeks, so would need 80L per batch. 56 weeks divided by 8 weeks is 7 brews per year assuming 100% laziness. So 5 to 6 brews is within acceptable laziness parameters.

But, yes, I would like some more differnet brews in the kegs. 

I have decided to make the fermeter take up the whole fermenting fridge, and that seems to be about 100L, so 80L fermenting volume is just acceptable. However two fermenters would be the ducks nuts, but I dont think I have enough valves for that - so that is earmarked for the future expansion. I would also like to have some leway for producing wort for local brewers.

So, yea, I agree, need to do some more drinking on it. How to get enough brews into the first year to dial in the process? Hmmm, I suppose in the begining I just need to make more than I can consume and give it away - think I can hear a few people putting their hands up already!


----------



## schooey

Bandito said:


> Incase someone missed it..  Schooey, I'm looking in your direction>>>



Sounds good, B1, but you gotta come forth with some plane tickets... then of course you'd have to buy a pulse tig with foot control, plasma cutter... oh, oh! and one of those cool self darkening storm trooper type welding helmets.. then there's the issue of cleaning out your bathroom for a workshop because the laundry space is gone already, and the loungeroom is full of 3D monitors.

On second thoughts... might be easier with you new bud from the local metal fabricator's


----------



## Bandito

Well, the offer is there, and it's genuine. Was thinking more of having the materials cut and delivered to you, a part payment to cover the cost of the equipment, then having it shipped to me, or you delivering it to me for the cost of the shipping.

The fermenter is thin walled stainless, the MLT and kettle are thick walled stainless pipe and flanges with thinwalled lids. Still to decide on the HLT (a 40L urn will probably suffice). The frame will likely be 50 x 25x 4 RHS mild steel with 200PFC to support the butterflys.

I'm sure I can weld the frame, as its just mild steel. I would like to weld the rest of it too. Hate to say it, but I doubt I will have the time to go to tafe, and so will probably just wing it. Will start by practising with scrap mild steel from the frame. Then weld the frame, then practise with scrap stainless sheet, trying to make a drip tray, electronics control box times 2 (one for low voltage (12V) and another one for 240V). Then weld the thick stainless pipe to the weldneck or slipon flanges for the MLT and kettle, and then weld the thin walled stainless sheet bung and walls of the stand, and last of all the fermenter. Hopefully that will stagger the experience I need so by the time I get the the critical stuff I have at least half a skill. 

If I do it like I have described I reackon I can do it myself, will need to upload pics of the welds to get some feedback on the quality though.


----------



## jakub76

> I have decided to make the fermeter take up the whole fermenting fridge, and that seems to be about 100L, so 80L fermenting volume is just acceptable


I think you missed the point. Smaller - not bigger. And more frequency - not justification for less. 



> I just need to make more than I can consume and give it away - think I can hear a few people putting their hands up already!


Is that like the sound of one hand clapping? If a tree falls in the forest...



> by the time I get the the critical stuff I have at least half a skill.


We're still not talking about beer are we..?


----------



## bum

jakub76 said:


> I think you missed the point. Smaller - not bigger.


 
Oh man. Did he just not immediately acquiesce to your demanded changes? Them shits must sting!


----------



## schooey

Bandito said:


> Well, the offer is there, and it's genuine. Was thinking more of having the materials cut and delivered to you, a part payment to cover the cost of the equipment, then having it shipped to me, or you delivering it to me for the cost of the shipping.



ok, serious for a minute... Appreciate the offer and all, B1, but with all that frigging about it'd be cheaper for you to find an apprentice or something and swap him some beer for his time...


----------



## Bandito

My concept is that if I have the space I have to use it.

Yes, if a tree falls in the woods.... Nope, I got nuffin.

So do I just do less mashes? Like with a 20L final boil volume I will need 4 mashes to make up 80L in the fermenter. So I suppose I just need to accept that for the first year or so Jessica will just do say two mashes and boils into the fermenter. So thats 60L head space. I dont see a problem with that. Planning an automated yeast culturing system, but its pretty complex, so that comes into it, almost got a concept, but not quite there yet.

Thanks for the thought provoking Jakub!


----------



## Bandito

schooey said:


> ok, serious for a minute... Appreciate the offer and all, B1, but with all that frigging about it'd be cheaper for you to find an apprentice or something and swap him some beer for his time...




Yea, that would be better than someone who knows how to do it or just someone who cares. I could do it better in my sleep while drunk as I would care how it turned out.


----------



## schooey

:lol: Let's not start taking it all personally now, B1! Ok, I'll make you a serious deal... I'm pretty sure I'll be in Melbourne for the ANHC.... if you have it all cut and ready, and can get access to a TIG, I'll fizz it together for you for nicks? We'll call it my apology to you for being such a negative smartass in your thread and call it quits?


----------



## bum

That's pretty awesome, Schoo.


----------



## Bandito

:lol: Obviously, wasnt meant personally, just saying that someone that cares will do it better. Was outside having a smoke just then and decided once and for all to do it myself. Not going to have a chance to get training, just going to work my way up as previousely described getting experience on the simple stuff (frame) etc. I have welded before, just not much. Now that I have posted it I cant go back.

You have been very helpful Schooey, thanks for your input!


----------



## jakub76

bum said:


> Oh man. Did he just not immediately acquiesce to your demanded changes? Them shits must sting!


Oh, I'm sorry I upset you petal. It's coz I mentioned Nick isn't it? Chin up big guy, I'm sure he'll stop ignoring you soon. Hugs


----------



## bum

Wait. What?


----------



## thelastspud

Did a experienced boilermaker just offer to weld this up for you for free and you turned him down?


----------



## Bandito

Yea, but I had already decided a few mins before to do it myself. Once I make up my mind its as good as done. And he does live like 5 hours drive away so wouldnt want to put him out. Now I just need to close down the browser and get to modeling - not going to happen tonight though.

As bear grills says: a decision, wether its right or wrong is usually a good thing in a survival situation. Once you stop making decisions you loose your motivation and end up going to sleep in the desert and never waking up.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## katzke

Havent you figured him out yet?

He wants to build an automated brewery that will do everything but make him drink the beer. Then he says he is too lazy to turn it on and brew more then 5 or 6 times a year.

and he still wants to have automated yeast culture for all that brewing he is planning.


----------



## bum

katzke said:


> Haven't you figured him out yet?


 
Apparently you haven't. The system is more interesting than the beer it'll make. He's already making beer. 

(Sorry to be talking about you behind your back right in front of your face, Bandito)


----------



## Bandito

bum said:


> Apparently you haven't. The system is more interesting than the beer it'll make. He's already making beer.
> 
> (Sorry to be talking about you behind your back right in front of your face, Bandito)



Its all good bum! Im not even here! This is an automated reply - they all are! I'm not even real! I'm an automated bot! :unsure:


----------



## Bandito

Do you have a link to your automated brewery please katzke? I dont think I have seen it yet.


----------



## Bandito

katzke said:


> Haven't you figured him out yet?
> 
> He wants to build an automated brewery that will do everything but make him drink the beer. Then he says he is too lazy to turn it on and brew more then 5 or 6 times a year.
> 
> and he still wants to have automated yeast culture for all that brewing he is planning.




I will have to dispose of the spent grain, and be home to monitor it so the place doesnt burn down as has been fortold in the bigfridge profecies, at least for the first year.

But yea, I am still trying to figure out how to have the capability of only brewing 6 times a year eventually, whilst having the ability to do smaller batches to dial in the system and more importantly, dial in the recipies. The answer for that seems to be to do single or double batches.


----------



## LethalCorpse

Bandito said:


> Do you have a link to your automated brewery please katzke? I dont think I have seen it yet.


You don't get to whip out that little chestnut until you've got one yourself, bandito.


----------



## Bandito

I have learnt a lot from zwickles setup, also from Jonathons. I'm sure I can also learn a lot from Katzke's also - hangon - am I getting Kirem confused with Katzke? Do you have an automated brewery? Or am I confusing them both with that other automated brewer starting Z - who was that? Cant put my finger on the name. Oh yea, Zizzle, that the dude! Anyone have a link to his brewery?

I have also learnt a lot from many other brewers - everyone quite frankly. And dispite my reputation, I do listen to everyone, but I do reserve the right to make up my own mind - even though I am an automated bot /skynet.


----------



## yardy

schooey said:


> *I'll make you a serious deal... I'm pretty sure I'll be in Melbourne for the ANHC.... if you have it all cut and ready, and can get access to a TIG, I'll fizz it together for you for nicks*




Burrito,

unchange your mind and take the deal.


----------



## bigfridge

schooey said:


> :lol: Let's not start taking it all personally now, B1! Ok, I'll make you a serious deal... I'm pretty sure I'll be in Melbourne for the ANHC.... if you have it all cut and ready, and can get access to a TIG, I'll fizz it together for you for nicks? We'll call it my apology to you for being such a negative smartass in your thread and call it quits?



Scho, isn't the dude in Batemans Bay and not Melbourne ?

Maybe we can send Fatz to help him.

<_<


----------



## schooey

My bad...

I dunno why I thought he was in Melbourne?? You're not originally from Melbourne are you, B1? I get this feeling you're mexican somehow...


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> Do you have a link to your automated brewery please katzke? I dont think I have seen it yet.



Bandaid, that is a cheap shot on someone that has tried to help you. It is not an easy task to design and build a control system, let alone a full brewery. 

I have spent 5 years developing mine. I can't tell you much about it as it contains a lot of proprietary software that was the result of hudnreds of hours of programming and optimisation. But here is a photo of a prototype.


----------



## Bandito

So your planning on producing and selling them? You gota be able to elaborate on it a bit more than that! What chip are you using? And please dont say its a basic stamp. Better at least be a PIC18F series if not a full blown DSP. Have you checked out Labview? It can code the programming itsself, then compile the code and upload it to the chip to make an embedded system (I think anyway, I know it can create an exe file for pc driven systems that dont need labview to run). As long as the process isnt straightforward and has some multitasking in it the code it produces is 1/4 decent. It sounds wierd, but the more complex the process, the simpler the code labview produces, which helps when debugging is required. Thats what I have been told anyway.

I recieved 12 x usb to com port cables last week, and ordered another 5 pic controlled relay boards to go with the two on thier way. With analogue to digital, digital to analogue converters, digital out and digital inputs, 20MHz 8 bit processor, eprom and ram all on the one chip, there's not much it cant do.

Opensource FTW.

Im looking at how to open and close these butterflys atm.

I have found these 8000 Newton linear actuators: http://cgi.ebay.com/Black-Linear-Actuator-...216358585242596

They say they have a load capacity of 8000 Newton, which is 816Kg. The butterflys require 5812 Pounds per inch of torque to open and close, which is equivalent to 657 Newton meters. So the length of lever I need is 657/8000=0.082m (8.2cm). The stroke length of that actuator is 40cm. So I figure that should be sufficient to turn the seat 90 degrees even with a longer lever. Wierd thing is that it says not to apply a safety factor to the required torque? I suppose its already been allowed for. At these forces, I doubt the grist weight/viscosity will have too much effect, but will be way over the required forces anyway (unless my calcs are out by a factor of 10).

Also decided on weldneck flanges - they seem to lack the small indentation that could harbour grist.


----------



## Bandito

I could see one of these linear actuators as part of an automated biab bag hoister. With a 2:1 lever to get more height. 

Sure are a heap of them to choose from though: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_kw=Linear&_kw=Actuator


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> So your planning on producing and selling them? You gota be able to elaborate on it a bit more than that! What chip are you using? And please dont say its a basic stamp. Better at least be a PIC18F series if not a full blown DSP. Have you checked out Labview?



No, I don't sell them - well not to the AHB market. We design and build commercial breweries. 

Labview - yes I know it ...... a bit of a toy used by 'Engineers and Scientists' that can't program an embedded device. I use a system designed for embedded electronic controls in oem machines. This way you don't have to rely on Windoze to run your system. As you can see from my pic this unit is self contained.




Bandito said:


> Im looking at how to open and close these butterflys atm.



How are you going to rig your false bottom to allo wthe valve to open and dump the spent grain or trub ? I can't see how the valve could open ?


----------



## Bandito

Now would be a good time to admit that the cow ipod thing I posted was a troll directed at you. You didnt bite, which is a shame. Its actually a herd tracker being developed by the CSIRO, I just posted it because its the funniest pic I have ever seen.

Care to fess up to any of yours?


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Now would be a good time to admit that the cow ipod thing I posted was a troll directed at you. You didnt bite, which is a shame. Its actually a herd tracker being developed by the CSIRO, I just posted it because its the funniest pic I have ever seen.
> 
> Care to fess up to any of yours?




:lol:


----------



## zagadka

bigfridge said:


> I have spent 5 years developing mine.*snip*


Off topic:
In the pic, did that 1/2 BSP to 1/4 compression fitting come with that probe or did you buy it separate? I'm looking for a similar fitting...




Bandito said:


> I recieved 12 x usb to com port cables last week, and ordered another 5 pic controlled relay boards to go with the two on thier way. With analogue to digital, digital to analogue converters, digital out and digital inputs, 20MHz 8 bit processor, eprom and ram all on the one chip, there's not much it cant do.



Which relay boards are you using, what pic is on them, where did they come from etc - more details?

Wouldn't you custom cook something rather than running n of these boards with n USB to RS232 converters - or is there some different thinking behind your decision?

For something pre-built, have you looked at a UBW or UBW32 for example? Lots of IO, USB, talk to it via virtual com port and simple commands...


----------



## Bandito

TimD said:


> Which relay boards are you using, what pic is on them, where did they come from etc - more details?
> 
> Wouldn't you custom cook something rather than running n of these boards with n USB to RS232 converters - or is there some different thinking behind your decision?
> 
> For something pre-built, have you looked at a UBW or UBW32 for example? Lots of IO, USB, talk to it via virtual com port and simple commands...



Ordered from http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-RS485-40-Channel-R...=item41517bdcdd
But I didnt use the online ordering system, as the postage came out at $47,000. So sent him an email at [email protected] and he sent a paypal payment request. "The shipping/Handing is $13.99 + 4 x $7.99 = $45.95 for 5 x FR88 boards" (all US$) The aussie dollar is quite high atm, so I need to take advantage of it while I can.

Yea, I could have printed up some custom home made boards with the press'n peel circuit board transfers I have, but its just easier and faster this way. They come with a PIC16F series. Also compatable with 18F versions that have a usb bus hardwired in them. The 16F should do though, and have a operating higher temp range more suited to a brewery, so will probably stick with them. The cables were like $7 each, so its not as if its a huge outlay. I ordered more than I need - like I am trying to do with everything, both for spares and to use in future projects. Its more cost effective to order more the first time than to order a second time and pay the extra postage.

I have not looked at UBW, I have experience in PIC's, but will look the UBW's up. Thanks.


----------



## schooey

TimD said:


> Off topic:
> In the pic, did that 1/2 BSP to 1/4 compression fitting come with that probe or did you buy it separate? I'm looking for a similar fitting...



Right here, dude... Set you back about $20 a pop


----------



## Bandito

Bandito said:


> Ordered from http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-RS485-40-Channel-R...=item41517bdcdd
> But I didnt use the online ordering system, as the postage came out at $47,000. So sent him an email at [email protected] and he sent a paypal payment request. "The shipping/Handing is $13.99 + 4 x $7.99 = $45.95 for 5 x FR88 boards" (all US$) The aussie dollar is quite high atm, so I need to take advantage of it while I can.



Woops, got the link wrong, thats the other relay boards. This is the right link for the ones with the PIC16F86: http://fcelectronics.ecrater.com/p/3361529...y-board-8-input

Cost is the above postage cost plus US$52.99 each.


----------



## Scruffy

FPGA.


----------



## Bandito

TimD said:


> For something pre-built, have you looked at a UBW or UBW32 for example? Lots of IO, USB, talk to it via virtual com port and simple commands...



Drooling over the 32bit PIC! I didnt think one existed.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...roducts_id=8971 

The UBW boards are also better than the ones I got (same basic thing though) as they have an 18F chip with more A/D converters and are cheaper.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...roducts_id=8265


----------



## bigfridge

TimD said:


> Off topic:
> In the pic, did that 1/2 BSP to 1/4 compression fitting come with that probe or did you buy it separate? I'm looking for a similar fitting...



Schooey has posted a good local site, but I got them with the NTC probe from Embedded Control Concepts in the USA.


----------



## zagadka

schooey said:


> Right here, dude... Set you back about $20 a pop



Thanks mate that'll save me a lot of time looking. Do they talk to the public or is it businesses only?




Bandito said:


> Drooling over the 32bit PIC!
> *SNIP*



Yeah, the UBW is some nice kit. I've got one at home, but ended up custom cooking a 16f88 based board instead for that particular project. Looking forward to my next project with an 18f2550, USB based relay control.


Have you looked at how you're going to manage all these relay boards? It's starting to get crowded =) 

EDIT:
Thanks also bigfridge. I will check them out.


----------



## schooey

TimD said:


> Thanks mate that'll save me a lot of time looking. Do they talk to the public or is it businesses only?



Yep. That's where I got mine from. If you did have an ABN and went to all the fuss of opening an account with them, you might get them for half the price or something... T&S Valves at Ingleburn also sell them if that is closer...


----------



## Bandito

TimD said:


> Yeah, the UBW is some nice kit. I've got one at home, but ended up custom cooking a 16f88 based board instead for that particular project. Looking forward to my next project with an 18f2550, USB based relay control.
> 
> Have you looked at how you're going to manage all these relay boards? It's starting to get crowded =)



Today I recieved the 5 x 8 relay boards from bolivia, and the first two of the FP88 PIC ones from canada today (the other 5 were sent today too). They are quite large. When I first realised how much space they would take I was trying to figure out a plug'n'play type thing - like computer cards. But perhaps instead of a stationary metal cabinet where eveything is mounted in it, a series of metal leafs (sort of like a book)? Perhaps not, I do want everything to be hardwired, and moving/twisting wires is never good, so will probably just need to make the cabinet big enough to hold everything, but thin enough that it doesnt take up too much space.

Also recieved the 300mm false bottom, and the plate chiller, and the 3d glasses. But it seems my professional graphics quadro video card doesnt support it. A new geforce card is too expensive, so will look for a second hand one - so as to not hold up the build.

The false bottom needs about 5mm cut off around the circumference (1cm off the diameter). How should I cut it? A fine toothed flexible blade hacksaw?

The chiller has very large barbs - going to have to figure out an adapter to fit the 1/4" ID silicon. 

Also got a quote for those 8000 Newton linear actuators. US$318 including postage for three (two to use and one spare. Think I'll take em. 

At the rate these parts are arriving, it should be finnished in time for ANHC. Hmmm, I wonder, should I try to get a stall? It would fit into the radical brewing theme. Could really use a sponsor though  

Is ANHC like a normal expo with stalls? I went to an automation expo at the exhibition centre about 2002. Crazy ass robots! 


Just found the system wars pictures on the AHNC site! Could automation be the fourth kind!?! Or is it already?


----------



## LethalCorpse

Bandito said:


> Today I recieved the 5 x 8 relay boards from bolivia, and the first two of the FP88 PIC ones from canada today (the other 5 were sent today too). They are quite large. When I first realised how much space they would take I was trying to figure out a plug'n'play type thing - like computer cards. But perhaps instead of a stationary metal cabinet where eveything is mounted in it, a series of metal leafs (sort of like a book)? Perhaps not, I do want everything to be hardwired, and moving/twisting wires is never good, so will probably just need to make the cabinet big enough to hold everything, but thin enough that it doesnt take up too much space.


Why don't you ask the electrician who's going to be wiring it for you?


----------



## Bandito

You would probably remember on the other forumn when a QLD electrician broke my peltier power supply!

What you quoted wasnt worded very well. It was a thought process - the last line was the answer - A thin expansive electrical cabinet. Now how to protect it from liquid, I suppose it will have to be outside the wet area.


----------



## LethalCorpse

You had a bad experience with an electrician, therefore you're going to wire this yourself? 

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just use your shoelaces, or a bunch of pills?


----------



## Bandito

No dude! I will just be designing it myself. Will have to kepp an eagle eye on the sparky while hes working, and test it myself before plugging it in. 

Need to make an induction manual and make up some test circuits before he's qualified to work on my brewery (similar if he worked at CUB, AGL, ENERGEX or anywhere else, but this will be tougher). Would be easier to fly up my best mate to do it. 

I could do it, and it would be right, but it wouldnt be legal. So will get a qualified person (probably my best mate) to either wire it up, or just look over what I have done and test the shit out of it. Havent decided which yet. 
Woops! I shouldnt have said that. 

Most likely will be to undo the connections and then put them back in while checking the wires.


----------



## thelastspud

Why risk it? Just get your mate to do it then you dont have to worry about killing yourself or burning out any of the sensitive componets. If he is your mate he`ll probably do it for beer.


----------



## Bandito

I am no stranger to electronics and electricity. Been doing it for the past 13 years. Its just the legal thing I am concerned about. Well, that and lethals wrath :unsure: And some dimwitted sparky f'ing my circuits and burning my house down. A piece of paper with a qualification on it doesnt have a magical power, it just a piece of paper. There are good and bad in every profession. The risk would be to risk getting a bad one that doesnt understand what I am doing.

Can we put this issue to bed please. I promise it will be certified by a qualified professional - albeit a professor of electrical and electronic engineering (well not quite, but if I mentioned his title, noone would know what it was - lets call it quadruple super duper quasi multidimensional dark string electronics and electrical engineering). About 300,000 times more qualified than a sparky. Even I only understand 1/4 of what he does.


----------



## LethalCorpse

That's not the post you use to put it to bed.


----------



## Bandito

Just updated it, does that make any difference?

I'm going to bed.


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## komodo

I have a headache


----------



## tavas

Any chance of seeing some pics of the gear? It sounds like a great setup. Show us, we who live vicariously through you!!!


----------



## LethalCorpse

Bandito said:


> I am no stranger to electronics and electricity. Been doing it for the past 13 years.


This makes no sense. It's like saying "I've been doing science". It highlights pretty clearly that you haven't.



Bandito said:


> A piece of paper with a qualification on it doesnt have a magical power, it just a piece of paper.


Something else which doesn't have magical powers is an enthusiastic neophyte with a screwdriver, and no piece of paper.


Bandito said:


> The risk would be to risk getting a bad one that doesnt understand what I am doing.


That would make two of you.


Bandito said:


> Can we put this issue to bed please.


Sorry, no, not this one. This is the important one. Most of the rest of the issues result in you wasting your time and money. We're quite happy to heckle you for that, but ultimately, you're the one eating dogfood to pay for it, it's your choice. This is the one that gets you killed, and I'm not going to shut up about it. You're also not going to convince me or anyone else here that you have the slightest clue about what you're doing, so your current strategy of sticking your chest out and claiming to be awesome at everything could probably use some revision.


Bandito said:


> I promise it will be certified by a qualified professional - albeit a professor of electrical and electronic engineering (well not quite, but if I mentioned his title, noone would know what it was - lets call it quadruple super duper quasi multidimensional dark string electronics and electrical engineering). About 300,000 times more qualified than a sparky. Even I only understand 1/4 of what he does.


Let's _not_ call it that, lest we all look like dickheads. Let's assume for a second that a few of us around here might not be complete dickheads, and might even have heard of job titles more exotic than "forklift driver", or "plumber", or "washroom attendant". _Is_ he a professor of electrical and electronic engineering? Which university? Is he an expert in theoretical physics, perhaps? Do you really understand a quarter of what he does? I'm a lowly embedded engineer with a bachelor's degree, and I'd put your understanding of what I do in about the first percentile. My understanding of what you do would probably be of a similar order, but then, I'm not trying to build a steel frame, am I?

Either way, unless your friend is also an electrician, it doesn't matter if he _is_ a professor of electrical and electronic engineering. He might know how to design the system far better than you could, but he's not legally qualified to wire it up, or certify it any more than your local priest can declare your car roadworthy. There is, of course, a much lower chance of him setting fire to your premises if he's got any skills or qualifications at all. Sorry, "magic pieces of paper", I believe you call them.

In case you were wondering, "a series of metal leafs (sort of like a book)?" was the point at which I decided you once again needed a paddling.


----------



## bigfridge

tavas said:


> Any chance of seeing some pics of the gear? It sounds like a great setup. Show us, we who live vicariously through you!!!



I beleive that you have no chance of ever seeing it finished - it is, and will remain, just a heap of expensive and poorly designed parts.  

They will be gathering dust in the same corner as the 3D Computer monitors and the Peltier. Actually the monitors are agreat example of how NOT to do something - No thought of looking at the intended purpose or compatability with the existing hardware, just rush out and buy something.

Much like the 100 litre brewery that won't fit in the laundry any more or the chiller being fed through 1/4" tube. Mind you when this 'building it' soap opera is over we can look forward to the 'using it' version where the first bit of trub will block the 1/4" system solid.

Good luck finding a tradesman to build your IP rated cabinet (there is another term you can research) - telling them that you think that they are too stupid to work on your supurb equipment until they pass a 'build a circuit' test. Even if you could get somene to complete your test, would you know what you were looking at ?

All the best .......


----------



## paulwolf350

Bandito said:


> You would probably remember on the other forumn when a QLD electrician broke my peltier power supply!



I call that your fault for not using the correct electrician



Bandito said:


> I am no stranger to electronics and electricity. Been doing it for the past 13 years. Its just the legal thing I am concerned about. Well, that and lethals wrath And some dimwitted sparky f'ing my circuits and burning my house down. A piece of paper with a qualification on it doesnt have a magical power, it just a piece of paper. There are good and bad in every profession. The risk would be to risk getting a bad one that doesnt understand what I am doing.



This is highly offensive to everbody with a trade, There is several years of traing and some rigorous testing to get that "piece of paper", I could boil your job down to an" asshole with an expensive pencil" coz thats all designers are to me. I could do it, and have, and I could draw it in the dirt with a stick, so what do I need a designer for

Its only an analogy, I think you need to talk to a sparky now, design will be much easier once he has laid out his ground rules for you

Paul


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## kirem

LethalCorpse said:


> He might know how to design the system far better than you could, but he's not legally qualified to wire it up, or certify it any more than your local priest can declare your car roadworthy.



I really enjoy lethal's posts. This quote has to make into the AHB 2010 year book!


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## bigfridge

kirem said:


> I really enjoy lethal's posts. This quote has to make into the AHB 2010 year book!



It can join the one about the kid asking for 4 redskins as 'red fourskin' ....

Still chuckling about that one ......


----------



## Bandito

tavas said:


> Any chance of seeing some pics of the gear? It sounds like a great setup. Show us, we who live vicariously through you!!!



Sure: was good to see it all in one place.

Larger image here: http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/ali...cktakelarge.jpg







Not shown in the pic are two peristaltic pumps. Need to order another 4 or so, but want them with reversable motors, so will send an email requesting it soon. 35L pot in the pic will be HLT. Bucket is for the spent grist to be dumped into.

Ordered the 3 x linear actuators today. Also went to the local welding shop. A new cigweld is very expensive ($570 about!, still considering wether to get a second hand one. Also asked about getting a crash course in welding, and they mentioned one local bloke in particular that is said to be the best. So should be able to get a personal welding trainer no probs.

To Do List:

Still needed critical items:
grade 304 Stainless sheet
TIG welder
Steel sections for frame
silicon gaskets
24V DC, 4.5V DC, 12V DC and 6V DC power supplies.
Mains pressure automated valves.
2 x Automated dog food dispensers for grain dispense
Electronic Temperature sensors
PID for kettle & HLT
electric elements (I saw a post that mentioned a fully insulated model - anyone know where it was from?)
spray balls
4 x WPL1000 peristaltic pumps

Non-critical items (not needed for first run):
1 x Tablet dispenser for water additions
Stainless mixing arm with motor for MLT
100-150RPM whirlpool motor with stainless impeller.

OPTIONAL:
Herms


----------



## bum

LethalCorpse said:


> This makes no sense. It's like saying "I've been doing science". It highlights pretty clearly that you haven't.


 





(sorry, QB)


----------



## katzke

Bandito said:


> To Do List:
> 
> Still needed critical items:
> 
> 24V DC, 4.5V DC, 12V DC and 6V DC power supplies.



Buy them? For a guy that knows everything and can learn the rest I thought you would build them yourself.


----------



## Scruffy

katzke said:


> Buy them? For a guy that knows everything and can learn the rest I thought you would build them yourself.



...oh, here we go!, you Americans  think you have all the answers - do you know how difficult it is to take Australian electricity and make it into beer. 

You think you can rectify everything? ...


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## thelastspud

I saw this photo today thought this would be a good place to post it


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## Zizzle

Bandito said:


> I promise it will be certified by a qualified professional - albeit a professor of electrical and electronic engineering (well not quite, but if I mentioned his title, noone would know what it was - lets call it quadruple super duper quasi multidimensional dark string electronics and electrical engineering). About 300,000 times more qualified than a sparky. Even I only understand 1/4 of what he does.



As someone who has an engineering degree from one of the more academically inclined (but well regarded) universities in Aus, in my experience, professors would have to be some of the most practically useless people I have come across.

I would trust the sparky every time over the guy with the calculus & linear algebra books and the 3d monitors. Seriously, how often does a professor look at 240v AC wiring? How would he know the relevant codes and standards? He might know the theory, but he probably wouldn't even have an insulated screw driver.

(Ironically one of my best mates is a sparky studying to become an electrical engineer - best of both worlds).

You asked earlier in the thread. Here is my brewbot build log:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=15996

Most people here have written you off. And I don't blame them. But I'm going to take you at your word that you do listen and take the time to explain the approach that worked for me and what I think you should do.

My approach was a bit different to yours. Firstly, I did a fair few brews before I started. I knew the gear I had fundamentally worked.

I didn't buy anything expensive or dick around modeling anything. Not even on paper. I had a good idea of what I wanted to do in my mind, and just mocked up using my existing vessels. Let's face it, AG brewing isn't that complicated on the scale of things. No 3d models needed here.

I didn't plan on doing everything automated. Automate the easy and time consuming parts first. I planned on doing a prototype and throwing most of it away. It's pretty easy to assume something will work and find out it doesn't in practice and your whole approach is wrong.

I approached it in pieces. HLT first. Once that was working the next bit would often use the same building blocks. But as a result you will see it came together pretty quickly for me. A bit rough-and-ready. But a couple of months from concept to automated HLT fill, HLT heat, mash infusion, batch sparge, boil and hop additions. No one part beside the single march pump cost me over $40. I treated each like it was probably not going to work, so didn't want to waste too much money. I did it all in copper and brass with the plan to move to stainless as I became happy and confident with the design.

There were of course a few bits that didn't work out and needed to be re-though or re-worked. I was glad not to have to discard anything expensive.

I think once you get that point you can start to think about bells & whistles. Automate cleaning and grain disposal.

If you keep things simple enough you don't need to weld anything. Having said that, I love my mig and being able to blast together frames and brackets in a few minutes. But that is only a time saver. You can do a lot with nuts and bolts.

There is not point having a TIG welder if you don't have a basic shop and hand tools.

I love working with metal. It is forgiving. You can weld it and fill it. Bend it. It is malleable. The hop dropper, made of plastic and wood took a couple of attempts. I can't weld plastic and wood back together when wanting to make a change. Wood and plastic can split & crack and not be strong enough to do what you want. I wouldn't stuff around with plastic dog food feeders. Anyway, grain automation should be something that can come way later. Focus on the important bits.

So I reiterate what others have said. Skill up. Go take a welding course. Don't skimp. 3d monitors will be obsolete in a few years. Skills last forever.

Same with software skills & electronics skills. I personally would recommend against using a windoze PC or PC at all. I don't really like PIC micros either. You need practically no CPU power to do this job. It's all about I/O. Go get some audinos. I used the same AVR cpu in the brewbot can really like the lib-arv and gcc toolchain for it. Alternatively look at a cheap ARM based board. Plenty of CPU grunt in any ARM. Can even get one that runs a full OS (linux).

I wouldn't buy a single other thing if I were you. Make some progress first.

Get a basic controller setup that can read some temps and control a relay. Get your HLT working. 

Sounds simple right? OK, what temp sensor? Where is it mounted? Does the water stratify and give false readings? Compensate in software or add some convection rods? how to fill? How to control the water inflow? How to measure volume? Start with conductivity probe and fixed batch sizes? How to heat? How to measure temp? How long will it take? What about sparge water? Fill with all the water needed, or do the infusion water first, followed by the hotter sparge water? How much I/O and code space does that need? Dedicate a microcontroller to it, or use a single one for the whole system?

With an automated HLT You can use it to simplify your brew days already. Speed doesn't matter that much for HLT so use your 240v 10A outlet to heat it. Get your sparky in to make sure you've done it all right. Show him you mean business. Mount it up high, so it can gravity feed the rest of your manual brew day. No pump needed. Next step get your controller activating your pinch valves or some solenoids to fill and empty it. Since you are using it as part of your manual brew day it's like a QA session. Nothing is left unattended, so less risk of burning the place down. Build some confidence in your solution for when it does need to be unattended.

Get the mash and boil working with basic vessels. Maybe what you already have. Get the process automation working. Maybe do the dough-in by hand. Maybe do the boil by hand with gas. Think about how you solve your heat source problem. Be observant. Be prepared to discover new issues to solved. Like how far away from the wall to mount your hot vessels to prevent wall/paint damage. 

Once the basics are there, then go design a flash mash tun that can drop the grain and make you coffee.

Prove the naysayers here that you can do something more than dream, buy stuff, and BS on some forum. Or maybe recognise your weakness and get in a good practical mate to put some things together and get it started.

The most important thing is not to be arrogant. Let's face it your current design has to be naive. You have never done anything like this before. Even if you collected all the advice from all the knowledgeable people here, there would still be at least one show stopper flaw in whatever design you had. But better one than many.

But be warned, if you don't, and you have some know-it-all come backs to this post (let's face it, you have pissed off most of the knowledgeable people in this thread and have nothing to show for it... you have proved no-one wrong so far), you will have done yourself a great disservice. I'll probably be happy to join the ranks of the piss-takers and told-you-soers.

tl;dr: put something together and show some progress!

Anyway, enough from me, longest post evar....


----------



## schooey

Zizzle said:


> Anyway, enough from me, longest post evar....



:lol: I know I'm probably one of the people you're caning as a nay-sayer, Zizzle, but you gotta have a giggle at the irony here; The twenty minutes it took you to write all that out is probably the most productive work that has gone into this build so far...


----------



## bigfridge

Zizzle said:


> I wouldn't buy a single other thing if I were you. Make some progress first.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Anyway, enough from me, longest post evar....



Best post evar !

Like Schooey said - biggest design advance in this project so far.


----------



## dcx3

"In my experience, professors would have to be some of the most practically useless people I have come across".

My wife works for a uni in admin and i can tell you for a fact this is so true.These people cant even do the simplest of tasks without debating it or dissecting it to the most minute level.Get a good tradie!


----------



## kirem

Zizzle said:


> Same with software skills & electronics skills. I personally would recommend against using a windoze PC or PC at all. I don't really like PIC micros either. You need practically no CPU power to do this job. It's all about I/O. Go get some audinos. I used the same AVR cpu in the brewbot can really like the lib-arv and gcc toolchain for it. Alternatively look at a cheap ARM based board. Plenty of CPU grunt in any ARM. Can even get one that runs a full OS (linux).



**** it, if zizzle is going to make some effort so will I.

just about everything you want to achieve has been done using the brewtroller. http://www.brewtroller.com/wiki/doku.php

*Take a breather* read though the brewtroller forum, ask some questions over there.

I have used the brewtoller to build an automated brewbot. about the only thing that hasn't been implemented in a code release is automated grain delivery, but I know there are threads on it. I used to have automated grain delivery on a previous brewbot, but it really is not necessary for mycurrent setup. Mine was basically a hopper prefilled with the grain bill, feeding the motorised mill with a shute leading into the mash tun. the motor was started on a timer. so I could prefill the hopper and have it fire up in the wee hours. My old system was discrete hardware based on auberins PIDS, but the more I developed it the more I needed a top level controller and a lot of the interlocks and safety could be handled a hell of a lot easier with a uc.

You will find a broad mix of people over there from code cutters, engineers to fabricators. The code is open source, actively developed and uses the Sanguino. They have just updated to 128KB uc. You will find source code with compile time options to suit your system and you can purchase bargain hardware through the project as well.

In my opinion, one of the most important things to come from Zizzle and I'll second it, is to start putting something together, brew with it, write down all the things you want handled differently or developed
and make some modifications, brew again and so on. take off small chunks, do things manually, then think, now how best can I automate that.

I'll back that up with a heavy dose of listen to Lethal. a lot of what you have posted is bloody dangerous and downright stupid. playing with automation is a very different skillset to making sure you don't over heat anything, wiring, GPO etc and burn the place down.

Brewing in a laundry owned by someone else is a bad idea, brewdays, no matter how careful you are, can be messy. You mentioned a shed in one of your posts, go down that path, you won't regret it. come cleanup you can throw water around and do the job properly. mount your brewery on some wheels, so you can wheel it outside to cleandown.

I completely understand your need to tinker, but do it small chunks.

I have been developing my brewery over 5 or so years, I like to tinker and make mods. I have completely rebuilt it twice.

don't spend too much time getting everything perfect the first time around, chances are you will modify it at sometime. ie welding, make solid strong welds, but don't spend time making them pretty, just make them work.


----------



## Bandito

Wow, thanks heaps to Zizzle and Kirem. I really do appreciate the feedback and advice. I have read your posts a few times, and am listening. 

I will be hooking up the normally open pinch valves to the relay boards this weekend and dialing in the required activation voltage. And time permitting the grain and hops dispenser too. Will be the first time I actually use labview, so it will be fun. 

I will be automating each component one by one on the couch, and slowly building up the labview schematic. 

While I am listening and taking note, you have cought me 85% into the project, and am way beyond the point of no return. There is not much left to get, from here on its prety much hooking up 12V circuits. Do you really want me to abandon the project that on the current schedule will be assembled and ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days?

Thanks again.


----------



## bum

Bandito said:


> the current schedule...ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days


 
Uh-oh! I smell an error. 

I guess there is nothing to motivate like the sound of a hundred haters setting a reminder on their mobiles.


----------



## Bandito

Zakley! I did say current schedule though. Might be 32, might be 56. We all know what the haters can do though.

If I have time during lunch tomorrow I will get a cigweld weldskill 130amp with TIG kit, gloves, mask, argon gas and a regulator - wierd thing, is they only have a regulator without any guages! Sounds a dit dodgy to me, but is this acceptable?. Will haggle the price down though. And will get the phone number of a few local welders and schedule a crash course with follow ups over the next few weekends.


----------



## Bandito

Got the welder, a mask, regulator, gloves, a small disposable bottle of argon gas and a small disposable bottle of argon with CO2. The tig kit is on order. Still need a leather hood, but i'm sure ebay can supply that. 

Also found a stainless supplier with a waterjet cutter and an orbital welder. So if I cant learn in time he can do robotic sanitry welds. 

Now to hook up the relay boards to labview for the first time.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Also asked about getting a crash course in welding, and they mentioned one local bloke in particular that is said to be the best. So should be able to get a personal welding trainer no probs.



it's a piece of piss that welding lark, you should be right to go after one lesson, especially since the bloke is the best in the bay ( summer bay...)


----------



## Bandito

It probably has about the same population as summer bay. So the best may be the best out of 10  . but thanks for the encouragement. I'm sure it will take much longer than that though, but at least I have bitten the bullet and am on the way. Welding is the pinacle of manly stuff. Its controlled lightening afterall!

Actually today they said that the blokes in the shed of the supply place could show me, but time is a slight issue. Thats why I went to this local place, to be able to get the support. Its also good to put some money back into the local businesses - I did beat them down as much as possible, but was still a bit over priced. But I'll get it back in support and contacts.

I been installing the driver for the usb to serial port tonight, and it seemed to have worked. Then went to test a 12V power supply before wiring it into the PIC relay board, only to find all my multimeters were dead. Luckily I had a stock of 12V 1/2 AAA batteries in the electronics cupboard to replace it with. The voltage of the transformer was way too much - like 17 volts, so it seems I need a voltage regulator. Luckily, I had two voltage regulator kits in the cupboard and another one around somewhere, but cant find it after a few drinks. So am about to solder one up. Cant find my usual soldering irons either, but did find a new unopened one in the bottom of a box. I have been stockpiling heaps of kits and components over the years - I have a whole room dedicated to electronics stuff. Even have pin diodes from 10 years ago for a planned RF project. Now only if I can find a use for the cro this weekend my life will almost be complete. Been making circuits for the last 13 years, but havent done much in the last 12 months, so its good to get back into the swing of things and dust off all the old equipment and unwrap the unused stuff for the first time (even if it is a few years old).

The main aim of this weekend is to get the pich valves going. Inparticular, the normally closed ones. While I was able to get the normally open ones going with an increased opening, the NC ones need a bit more voltage to actuate with the increased opening. I didnt want to try this without the automated relays. So I plan to actuate at perhaps 16V for 0.25 seconds using one relay, then activate another relay at about 6 volts and turn off the first. This should allow it to actuate, then leave it with enough power to remain actuated but not overheat or fry from the momentary 16V surge. Better get back to it. I only have one spare of each type to fry!


----------



## bill_gill85

Bandito said:


> The main aim of this weekend is to get the pich valves going. Inparticular, the normally closed ones. While I was able to get the normally open ones going with an increased opening, the NC ones need a bit more voltage to actuate with the increased opening. I didnt want to try this without the automated relays. So I plan to actuate at perhaps 16V for 0.25 seconds using one relay, then activate another relay at about 6 volts and turn off the first. This should allow it to actuate, then leave it with enough power to remain actuated but not overheat or fry from the momentary 16V surge. Better get back to it. I only have one spare of each type to fry!



Bandito, I only just thought, Wouldn't the internal pressure of the pinch valve assist with opening? Have you tried them under the expected pressure?
Anyway I hope you don't let out any magic smoke on the weekend.

Ben


----------



## Bandito

After all weekend and each night this week I only just got labview to write to the serial port! Seems my 8.0 install was dodgy. Installing 8.5 fixed it. So this weekends goal will be to automate a valve <_< .




billgill said:


> Bandito, I only just thought, Wouldn't the internal pressure of the pinch valve assist with opening? Have you tried them under the expected pressure?
> Anyway I hope you don't let out any magic smoke on the weekend.
> 
> Ben



Yea, but only dealing with about 1 meter head height so thats only 1psi. The springy properties of the silicon tube plays a massive role in the pinch valve working, and is designed to balance the pressure of the spring inside the solenoid. Could put up some pics of the internals if you like.


----------



## Silo Ted

This might be getting a bit ahead of the game, but can you explain to me your proposal for an automated hops delivery system? I cant be bothered reading through 33 pages again, but was it some sort of automatic pet-feeder?


----------



## Bandito

Click the bottom picture to view the Video. First time I tested it, and it did take a few goes with the impromptu setup. As I suspected, the tablet dispenser does need to be at an angle greater than 90 degrees. Its a medi-alert tablet dispenser, still trying to find another one on ebay.

The setup will be similar, but the dispensers will be inside a car fridge. I doubt it will be chilled, the main aim is probably just to protect the hops from vapor and heat in the short term. There will be a largish hose in the lower corner with an actuated flap on it to seal the car fridge. The largish hose will be steep and stop short of the kettle, and the hops and whirlfloc will freeball the last bit under their own momentum to fall into the wort. Of course, might just make a flap in the kettle lid - still to decide.








VIDEO BELOW: CLICK TO VIEW>>




On a side note, I'm building a second dedicated computer specifically for the brewery. Will be recieving the few parts I need tomorrow, which, in conjuction with the ample spares I have lying around will make up a full pc. quite slow, but should cut the mustard and at least I wont break it by stuffing around like I do with my main pc.


----------



## manticle

Just a suggestion -

People who deal with computers and spreadsheets and modelling programs often seem (in my experience) to make things much more complicated than they need to be. Just because it works theoretically, doesn't mean it is the best solution.

I say this as someone who has to interpret exhibition designers in practical terms but I'll warrant that builders find the same with architects, electricians with electrical engineers etc etc, ad nauseaum.

All I'm suggesting is a bit of non-specific advice - find the simplest method to do things rather than the seemingly most clever and make sure it works efficiently at the job it's supposed to do. Don't get wrapped up in the genius of the project as the genius things are those that do what they are supposed to do and do it well. Look at penicillin - a bit of mould which saved potentially millions of lives. I'm sure there's loads of examples of very complex schedules/structures/concepts which are genius but I bet most of them are the simplest version available. Streamline your ideas.

I'll go back to drawing a dead mouse now.


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## Bandito

I agree! I have reciently realised how much simpler it would be to make a fully automated biab brewery. I wish I could turn back time and go that route, but I passed the point of no return when I purchased the butterfly valves. After this is finnished, I'll attempt it with the spares. Geared motors have ecentric shafts on them that are not in the center of the motor - perfect for a homebrew pinch valve.

Oh to have the time again.


----------



## Silo Ted

That's not a device that I am familiar with. Is there a moving platform under each compartment that thrusts forward to expel the contents, or is it air driven, or just motion driven by shifting quicly to the next bit? If that is being used for hop pellets, what is the capacity of each compartment, and is the thing going to be geared via computer to rotate between positions depending on a recipe. A rough count guesses 28. Sounds like a pain in the bum, even if I ont quite get what youre thinking. . 

The human element is that you would have to engage that crazy looking device into place to start with, from a coolroom storage with preloaded hops, and thus removing an automation aspect, makes me think that you could just as easily go for three hop hoppers and preload them at the start of the process. 

Not familiar with the mechanics or the electonics, but I have been thinking about an auto hopper where the hops are stored in a bottomless cup, sealed by gravity with a computer CD tray in the open position. The ridge/lip would be ground off and a thin sheet of aluminium would sit atop the tray, of which the cup full of hops would be held back. At a defined time in the process, the tray would close, sending the pellets down their merry way via a ramp and into the boil. You could set up three of these contraptions for bitter, flavour, aroma at times specified by the recipe, and they would release themselves into the boil where required. Of course you would need to preload each hop hopper, but that's no big deal, no more trouble than hooking up your crazy spaceship. 

Do you have a working system that produces beer by manual labour, with decent results, and then basing your automation on those principals? I am considering a semi-automation of the single vessel system, eventually. Its going to be one or two new additions to an existing process over time, and lots of observations. Your approach seems to take out that learning curve.


----------



## Silo Ted

I took my sweet time in responding so I missed the comments before. 



> I have reciently realised how much simpler it would be to make a fully automated biab brewery.



Can you share, what were some of your ideas towards that route? I have a few ideas up my sleeve, some of which were spoken about in another thread in the gear section. Basically looking towards a set & forget four-hour duration. Load grain, water and hop hoppers, push a big red button and go back to bed. An alarm goes off that tells me I need to transfer boiling wort to a cube, then I clean the gear up, and that's another brew-day done. I can spend more time cultivating big healthy starters instead. 



> All I'm suggesting is a bit of non-specific advice - find the simplest method to do things rather than the seemingly most clever and make sure it works efficiently at the job it's supposed to do. Don't get wrapped up in the genius of the project as the genius things are those that do what they are supposed to do and do it well



Bloody oath. If you wish to automate something, find the solution to each step that is the simplest you can get away with, and one that requires no constant maintenance. As long as it saves human hours during the process. Theres no point building some whizz-bang automated system that takes an hour to rig up in order for it to work without human interaction saving you only 45 minutes of real time


----------



## Bandito

Silo Ted said:


> That's not a device that I am familiar with. Is there a moving platform under each compartment that thrusts forward to expel the contents, or is it air driven, or just motion driven by shifting quicly to the next bit? If that is being used for hop pellets, what is the capacity of each compartment, and is the thing going to be geared via computer to rotate between positions depending on a recipe. A rough count guesses 28. Sounds like a pain in the bum, even if I ont quite get what youre thinking. .
> 
> The human element is that you would have to engage that crazy looking device into place to start with, from a coolroom storage with preloaded hops, and thus removing an automation aspect, makes me think that you could just as easily go for three hop hoppers and preload them at the start of the process.
> 
> Not familiar with the mechanics or the electonics, but I have been thinking about an auto hopper where the hops are stored in a bottomless cup, sealed by gravity with a computer CD tray in the open position. The ridge/lip would be ground off and a thin sheet of aluminium would sit atop the tray, of which the cup full of hops would be held back. At a defined time in the process, the tray would close, sending the pellets down their merry way via a ramp and into the boil. You could set up three of these contraptions for bitter, flavour, aroma at times specified by the recipe, and they would release themselves into the boil where required. Of course you would need to preload each hop hopper, but that's no big deal, no more trouble than hooking up your crazy spaceship.
> 
> Do you have a working system that produces beer by manual labour, with decent results, and then basing your automation on those principals? I am considering a semi-automation of the single vessel system, eventually. Its going to be one or two new additions to an existing process over time, and lots of observations. Your approach seems to take out that learning curve.



Its too late to answer all your questions tinight, but some answers are below:

Its controlled with a dc motor with some sensors. Some pics>
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=38885

[URL="http://&quot;http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38886&quot;"]http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;id=38886[/URL]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38887

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38888

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38889

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38890


----------



## Zizzle

Silo Ted said:


> Not familiar with the mechanics or the electonics, but I have been thinking about an auto hopper where the hops are stored in a bottomless cup, sealed by gravity with a computer CD tray in the open position. The ridge/lip would be ground off and a thin sheet of aluminium would sit atop the tray, of which the cup full of hops would be held back. At a defined time in the process, the tray would close, sending the pellets down their merry way via a ramp and into the boil. You could set up three of these contraptions for bitter, flavour, aroma at times specified by the recipe, and they would release themselves into the boil where required. Of course you would need to preload each hop hopper, but that's no big deal, no more trouble than hooking up your crazy spaceship.



HERMAN by ArnieW:






inspired my brewbot hop dropper:















I found that I had to mount it all in a plastic box with positive pressure from a computer fan to stop steam affecting the hops (also helps the hops get out). Also tried plastic cups, but the taper sometimes caused the hops to get stuck. So straight PCV was the go.


Here is a video of it in action when empty:


----------



## Bandito

Silo Ted said:


> I took my sweet time in responding so I missed the comments before.
> 
> Can you share, what were some of your ideas towards that route? I have a few ideas up my sleeve, some of which were spoken about in another thread in the gear section. Basically looking towards a set & forget four-hour duration. Load grain, water and hop hoppers, push a big red button and go back to bed. An alarm goes off that tells me I need to transfer boiling wort to a cube, then I clean the gear up, and that's another brew-day done. I can spend more time cultivating big healthy starters instead.
> /quote]
> 
> Just wrote a reply, but it got lost - site has changed - anyone else see the OP at the top of each page?
> 
> Anyway, attached pic should be pretty self explanetery. ask if it need some more explanation.


----------



## Carboy

I'll neven knock a person who is willing to attempt the impossible, but I have to say that it's threads like this one that makes me glad I'm a Butcher!.... I'm so confused! Is it 10:00am yet? I need a beer :icon_cheers:


----------



## bigfridge

manticle said:


> People who deal with computers and spreadsheets and modelling programs often seem (in my experience) to make things much more complicated than they need to be. Just because it works theoretically, doesn't mean it is the best solution.



Perfection is attained, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. (Antoine de St. Exupery)

Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. Some can avoid it. Geniuses remove it. 

To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove things every day. (Lao-tse)

Simplicity does not precede complexity, but follows it. 

There are two ways of constructing a software design: one way is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies
and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ deficiencies. (C.A.R. Hoare "The Emperor's Old Clothes" CACM Feb 1981)


----------



## jakub76

Silo Ted said:


> Load grain, water and hop hoppers, push a big red button and go back to bed. An alarm goes off that tells me I need to transfer boiling wort to a cube, then I clean the gear up, and that's another brew-day done.


Let me get this straight, you're automating the fun bit and leaving yourself the crappy washing up therefor turning the brewing process into weighing and washing - 90% cleaning up. Sounds like a great way to destroy a good hobby.


----------



## bum

Sounds like an even better way to impose your own motivations on to someone else.


----------



## Nick JD

bum said:


> Sounds like an even better way to impose your own motivations on to someone else.



The Fully Automated Brewing System already been invented...


----------



## Silo Ted

> Let me get this straight, you're automating the fun bit and leaving yourself the crappy washing up therefor turning the brewing process into weighing and washing - 90% cleaning up. Sounds like a great way to destroy a good hobby.



To each their own really. If I can save myself three hours, and add value to the process with repeatable results every time, I see no issue with the hobby being about designing recipes, doing a cleanup that has to be done anyway. My idea isnt about automating stuff just for the heck of it, its for two key practical outcomes, time and consistency. They are both tied in together, for example right now I am mashing outside, and the colder temps mean that I need to monitor the temp every 15 minutes, stir and add heat top maintain within 1/2 a degree. Indoors or shed brewing might be nice for some who only need to add insulation but its not an option for me. Same goes for a lot of time on my hands. 

It will probably take me a year to put the bits together anyway so theres still plenty of time for the fun stuff as you put it, and theres been plenty before now. As someone with no engineering qualifications a semi auto device would also bring great personal DIY satisfaction if it worked as I plan it to


----------



## Bribie G

Some people are more into a hobby for the challenges of tinkering and tech. Look at all the guys into Arduina or whatever it's called, not to mention beehive building. That's what guys have always done. Fully automated system for defeating Hittite invaders, right up our alley. When I used to breed and show dogs I was just as much into designing dog kennels and getting a cage welded that would exactly fit into a Laser hatchback etc etc. The dog himself was a brainless mutt. 



but I wuvved him 

:wub: 

Anyway off for a session with my UrnyNator - Saturday's half over and here I am typing. Wooohooooo


----------



## jakub76

Silo Ted said:


> To each their own really...a semi auto device would also bring great personal DIY satisfaction if it worked as I plan it to



Yeah I can dig that.



bum said:


> Sounds like an even better way to impose your own motivations on to someone else.



Sorry to share my opinion Bum, I didn't realise you were the only one on here entitled to have one. How can I upgrade my account to allow me your level of hypocrisy?


----------



## bum

I dunno. It might just be easiest to go ahead and do it anyway. Oh, look at that! You already did.

I posted because _you_ shat all over a dude for not brewing for the same reason you do and then you accuse me of trying to stifle people? Seems pretty hypocritical already to me.


----------



## jakub76

bum said:


> Seems pretty hypocritical already to me.


Oh zing! Perhaps we can avoid future confusion if you just go ahead and post a list of who you deem worthy of an opinion Constable bum.


----------



## Bandito

So this is what labview looks like: the window on the right is for the block diagram which is built from icons in the functions panel at the extreme right. The left window is the interface where user inputs and outputs are input and displayed. This is a version to simply turn a relay on and off programmed by my mate when I was having trouble getting it working. Need to sit down with a pen and paper and work out how to get to the next step. 

While bigfridge was right in saying that labview is mainly for engineers and scientists that cant program an embeded system, those than can program embeded systems still use labview because they can get a proof of concept and often a fully working system going in a fraction of the time by using labview. NASA for instance, and anyone that doesnt have years to spend developing an embeded system, but would rather get someting working quickly in order to prove a concept and get funding, patents etc well before what would be possible with low level programming. Certainly heaps easier than programming in assembly language! 

Just finnished installing labview 2009 which took 2 hours! 19GB worth!


----------



## unrealeous

Bandito said:


> I agree! I have reciently realised how much simpler it would be to make a fully automated biab brewery. I wish I could turn back time and go that route, but I passed the point of no return when I purchased the butterfly valves. After this is finnished, I'll attempt it with the spares. Geared motors have ecentric shafts on them that are not in the center of the motor - perfect for a homebrew pinch valve.
> 
> Oh to have the time again.


I think you should really give this option a lot more consideration - this might be the smartest insight you have said all thread. From the sounds of things, you still haven't built your vessels which are going to be a major expense (especially if you are using stainless) - and you can always sell your excess gear (I hear the market for Teflon coated butterfly valves is red hot right now). A simpler system might also solve your space issues (ie in a rental laundry), your power issues (heating one vessel instead of 3) and will cost less (fewer vessels, valves, fittings, etc) - and at the rate you are progressing you might be able to finish a simpler system before we die of natural causes


----------



## Bandito

I have been considering it! If the teflon coated 300mm red butterfly valve market is hot it might well be a go (one local rough quote was 1500 per valve - could it be I might have made an investment rather than waste money? surely not, will have to do the sums properly). Damn I am going to need a lot more beers to decide this one. :chug: 

I suppose it comes down to how much balls I have to abandon my current design for a more radical one. And wether I want to be a biaber. :unsure: :blink: 

I have three linear actuators on order, but it will be another week before they are posted due to a supply issue (I think they have to make more to fill my order).

Perhaps I could sell the butterflys, make three automated systems, sell two and break even? Something for me to consider - sounds crazy enough. Thanks Unrealeous! food for thought. 

Although, next I am going to make a fully automated mash potatoe, carrot and brocolli cooker - the butterflys could come in handy for that. But am thinking of something more sustainable so it can be made cheaply for the elderly and disabled. It's shocking how the elderly dont make proper meals because its too much work for just them as opposed to them and their partner. One taxi driver mentioned how many elderly have sandwiches for dinner and his theory was thats when their health start to go downhill. (BTW, not a drunk thought - been planning this next project for 5 months). 

It seems now would be a good time to mention the reason for undertaking this project. My dad makes his own soap using olive oil, caustic soda and essencial oils like lavender oil. And I want to automate his soap making factory. So this little escapade is just a dry run to get the experience for that. Its much like brewing, heat up 20L of olive oil to a specific temp, add the essencial oils, rose petals etc then add caustic soda, stir like crazy and dump in moulds. I did model some soap mould prototypes and have them 3d printed in plastic: 

And if you didnt see it coming, all of these automated projects are just dry runs for my lifes work which...... I wont mention as I dont want anyone else to die of laughter.


----------



## thelastspud

Bandito said:


> And if you didnt see it coming, all of these automated projects are just dry runs for my lifes work which...... I wont mention as I dont want anyone else to die of laughter.




come on... 

I wont post any laughs at least.


----------



## Zizzle

Bandito said:


> I have three linear actuators on order, but it will be another week before they are posted due to a supply issue (I think they have to make more to fill my order).



Meh. Probably cheaper and easier to buy a 12v winch. What's the point of a linear actuator if you are going to tie to to a cable anyway?

Drive it via PWM to get your speed right.

In fact I would start by trying a cheap spool on a windscreen wiper motor. You'd be surprised what those little buggers can do. And only about $5 at the local wreckers.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> I suppose it comes down to how much balls I have to abandon my current design for a more radical one. And wether I want to be a biaber. :unsure: :blink:




sounds like you're giving up to me

Dave


hows the welding btw ?


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Zizzle! Linear actuators are paid for and will arrive momentarily. Can you decreibe this 12V winch you speak of?

Sorry Bradley, I am planning on taking out patents on the top secret device I alluded to, and have been advised by a patent attorney not to divolge information pertaining to said top secret device to anyone. Everything else is open source though. Especially this project  .


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> I am planning on taking out patents on the top secret device I alluded to



iPod for a cow is it ?


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> sounds like you're giving up to me
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> hows the welding btw ?




Anti biab hey? how can I resist that avartar? :huh: 

As far as the welding goes, I picked up the tig kit on friday - YAY! But also got some computer parts, but upon putting them together I realised I needed a different type of ram, so have to order that. It's all a rich tapestry of what do I spend my time doing. Learning to weld, or learning to program an automated brewery. The answer is both.

The question is how do I find time? Time will tell. And to top it all off, the brewery funds I have been saving for the last 6 months have run out! Oh the humanity!


----------



## Bandito

yardy said:


> iPod for a cow is it ?




No comment. You will never guess! While I will make brewery related exploits freely available, my commercial exploits need to remain commercial - nothing to do with brewing though - more like automated robots that take over the world! Opps! I shouldnt have said that! I really should not have said that!


----------



## Silo Ted

> While I will make brewery related exploits freely available, my commercial exploits need to remain commercial



Im not too sure many readers have taken your open licence ideas and plan to incorporate it into their own set ups. Its a shame this project sounds like its being abandoned. I was looking forward to seeing the worlds most expensive home brewery set up in action producing top quality beers. Personally I reckon you should be building a conventional brew system first then retrofitting it for automation once you are familiar with the practical aspects of the hobby.


----------



## Silo Ted

I just noticed that its now exactly seven months since your first post so the stated project completion time has now past. To quote the Grateful Dead "What A Long, Strange Trip Its Been"


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> Anti biab hey?



nah that would make me anti beer.

will you start a new thread for your fully automated BIAB system ?

Dave


----------



## thelastspud

Bandito said:


> Sorry Bradley, I am planning on taking out patents on the top secret device I alluded to, and have been advised by a patent attorney not to divolge information pertaining to said top secret device to anyone. Everything else is open source though. Especially this project  .
> [/quote
> 
> 
> Yeah thats cool.
> 
> So I heard that when you go for a patent you have to pay a patent solicitor 10 grand just to go through all the old patents. To make sure that its truly a new invention. Any truth to that?


----------



## Bandito

*


Bandito said:



Sorry Bradley, I am planning on taking out patents on the top secret device I alluded to, and have been advised by a patent attorney not to divolge information pertaining to said top secret device to anyone. Everything else is open source though. Especially this project  .
[/quote

Click to expand...

*


Bandito said:


> *Yeah thats cool.
> 
> So I heard that when you go for a patent you have to pay a patent solicitor 10 grand just to go through all the old patents. To make sure that its truly a new invention. Any truth to that?*
> 
> 
> From my one meeting with a patent attorney, he said that it would cost between $2500 and $10000 to get the patent in australia - the actual figure is largly dependant on how long it takes to do the required searches. It was suggested to me that it would likely be on the cheaper end, but that I should allow for the higher end. Of course, I dont have a patent, and have only met with a patent attorney once - but I have actually met with one and am not just quoting something from the net.
> 
> One thing I have heard is that when one applies for a patent, one should be willing and able to solicit major companies straight away. While the initial cost (2.5 - 10K) may seem large, the cost of the worldwide patent is much greater, and without signing licencing agreements very soon after applying for a local patent, one is unlikely to have the funds to pay such fees - thus where a simple (albeit less than efficient) programming system like labview could make the difference between having to save up $100K for a worldwide patent as opposed to having some other company licence said concept which provides the capital (even if it requires 50+% of the future profits going to that company)
> 
> As a 'would be inventor' I do try to learn from the storeys of inventors that spend 20 years developing something in secret only to find in the 20th year when a patent is applied for, that it already exists.
> 
> I hope bigfridge isnt watching this h34r: or is that the other way round! As I mentioned I dont have a patent as yet! And my planned patents have nothing to do with brewing! My brewing stuff is entirely in the public domain. Anyone is free to manipulate and profit from my designs - good luck though! I dont know shit!  let alone how to make good beer - thats what computers are for!? (joking on that last one!)


----------



## Silo Ted

> My brewing stuff is entirely in the public domain. Anyone is free to manipulate and profit from my designs



From the feedback you have been receiving on this thread it appears unlikely that people will be rushing out to put your dreams into action. Even you appear to have throw in in the towel now that the seven months has drawn to a close, and you haven't even produced any beer with the parts you have bought. If you will excuse my cynicism, was this honestly ever for real or part of another agenda in seeking free consultations for your life's work? Im wondering how much of the actual equipment you have purchased is now coincidentally going into the patent pending soap-making robot that you have been planning all along. 

Recalling some of the attachments you have posted, and comments you have made I remember some of the following

~A computer imaged sketch that forgot to add the kettle

~An old pantry stuffed with insulation batts and a few empty water barrells placed inside it

~Photo of a yeast starter that really just looks like a bottle of beer thats poured into a tupperware container

~A few big red valves and some miscellaneous electronics alongside a pail, saucepan, some tubing and your alien mask. 

~A claim that a qualified electrician blew stuff up, so you would seek out a professors help to wire your electronics instead. Weird. 

~An offer from another member to do your welding for free which you turned down. A five hour drive could save a lot of time, effort and money spend on a welder. A good deal for someone who said they don't have the gear or the expertise. 

And now after all this, and that the seven month window closed on the very day you start saying you're thinking of chucking it in, and your next focus to be on an automated vegetable cooker for the elderly. I could make one of those now, by hooking a steamer up to a plugin timer. Vegetables already come precut at the supermarket. Was this a joke? I cant help but wonder if the brewery talk has been a joke. I tip my hat to you if you choose to continue and have a realistic planned outcome, then good on you mate. After all this time though nothing seems any closer to making beer than it was back on January 14th. 

of the 26,000 views of this thread, and assuming each visit has been 5 minutes in duration, you owe the brewing community over 2000 collective hours of personal time. 

For what it's worth if you are serious i think you should stick to it and give yourself a time extension for completion.


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> I hope bigfridge isnt watching this h34r: or is that the other way round!



I'm watching you Bandito .....

... watching that you don't mislead the simple, but good natured folk on this forum.

Mislead them with your big words and fancy diagrams ......


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> So this is what labview looks like: the window on the right is for the block diagram which is built from icons in the functions panel at the extreme right. The left window is the interface where user inputs and outputs are input and displayed. This is a version to simply turn a relay on and off programmed by my mate when I was having trouble getting it working. Need to sit down with a pen and paper and work out how to get to the next step.



Oh dear ..... does your mate know anything about Finate State Machines ? Because that is what you should be designing before worrrying about relays and buttons ....

Document the process to be controlled before designing the hardware to implement your design.

Back-to -front again .....


----------



## katzke

Silo Ted said:


> From the feedback you have been receiving on this thread it appears unlikely that people will be rushing out to put your dreams into action. Even you appear to have throw in in the towel now that the seven months has drawn to a close, and you haven't even produced any beer with the parts you have bought. If you will excuse my cynicism, was this honestly ever for real or part of another agenda in seeking free consultations for your life's work? Im wondering how much of the actual equipment you have purchased is now coincidentally going into the patent pending soap-making robot that you have been planning all along.
> 
> Recalling some of the attachments you have posted, and comments you have made I remember some of the following



Hey you forgot he was going to do 5 liter batches because he did not drink much and wanted different beers. That turned into 100 liter boils so he did not have to brew more then a few times a year.

He was also going to have multiple fermenters going for all those batches and the brewery was all going to fit in the space that a fridge uses. The fermenters were going in a second fridge.

What do you call Bull manure in Australia? Here in the USA we just call it what it is, and recognize those that produce it.




Silo Ted said:


> ~A computer imaged sketch that forgot to add the kettle
> 
> ~An old pantry stuffed with insulation batts and a few empty water barrells placed inside it
> 
> ~Photo of a yeast starter that really just looks like a bottle of beer thats poured into a tupperware container
> 
> ~A few big red valves and some miscellaneous electronics alongside a pail, saucepan, some tubing and your alien mask.
> 
> ~A claim that a qualified electrician blew stuff up, so you would seek out a professors help to wire your electronics instead. Weird.
> 
> ~An offer from another member to do your welding for free which you turned down. A five hour drive could save a lot of time, effort and money spend on a welder. A good deal for someone who said they don't have the gear or the expertise.
> 
> And now after all this, and that the seven month window closed on the very day you start saying you're thinking of chucking it in, and your next focus to be on an automated vegetable cooker for the elderly. I could make one of those now, by hooking a steamer up to a plugin timer. Vegetables already come precut at the supermarket. Was this a joke? I cant help but wonder if the brewery talk has been a joke. I tip my hat to you if you choose to continue and have a realistic planned outcome, then good on you mate. After all this time though nothing seems any closer to making beer than it was back on January 14th.
> 
> of the 26,000 views of this thread, and assuming each visit has been 5 minutes in duration, you owe the brewing community over 2000 collective hours of personal time.
> 
> For what it's worth if you are serious i think you should stick to it and give yourself a time extension for completion.


----------



## ben_sa

Silo Ted said:


> of the 26,000 views of this thread, and assuming each visit has been 5 minutes in duration, you owe the brewing community over 2000 collective hours of personal time.



If my boss knew how much time (time = money) I had spent reading this.... I reckon he'd come hunt you down Bandito....  J/K 

The most productive thing that appears to have come out of this thread, Is Bandito's post count...... h34r:

EDIT: sidenote: I honestly hope this does all come together though.... Would be great to see it in action..... 

(edited to make sure i didnt offend anyone.... Just havin a chuckle at work on this shitty 13.C sunday in adelaide)


----------



## Bandito

I will finnish this  . My lifes work I mentioned has nothing to do with this - killer robots that take over the world! Automating my dads soap factory will be done for free as a gift. I doubt anyone will use anything I bodge up either. This is my main aim atm


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> I will finnish this



stop ******* around then mate, no more cows with headphones, soap or robots hell bent on world domination, I'd hate to be paying you by the hour Burrito.


----------



## bigfridge

Bandito said:


> I will finnish this  . My lifes work I mentioned has nothing to do with this - killer robots that take over the world! Automating my dads soap factory will be done for free as a gift. I doubt anyone will use anything I bodge up either. This is my main aim atm



Can you please make sure that you let us know what Brand of soap your dad makes. This way we can ensur ethat we NEVER buy any by accident - I don't want to risk 'pure caustic' soap because your pinch valve didn't pinch enough.


----------



## Zizzle

Bandito said:


> Wow, thanks heaps to Zizzle and Kirem. I really do appreciate the feedback and advice. I have read your posts a few times, and am listening.
> 
> I will be hooking up the normally open pinch valves to the relay boards this weekend and dialing in the required activation voltage. And time permitting the grain and hops dispenser too. Will be the first time I actually use labview, so it will be fun.
> 
> I will be automating each component one by one on the couch, and slowly building up the labview schematic.
> 
> *While I am listening and taking note, you have cought me 85% into the project, and am way beyond the point of no return.* There is not much left to get, from here on its prety much hooking up 12V circuits. Do you really want me to abandon the project that on the current schedule will be assembled and ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days?



Such a big change in 10 days? Why give up now if there is only 15% left to do?

Seriously, just build an automated HLT already. Make some actual progress. If labview and PCs are chewing time and money, go and order a brewtroller like kirem recommends and forget about that part for now.

It should give you (and those if us still wondering) an idea of how capable you are of doing this stuff. And if you decide to go BIAB you can still use it.

As far a patents go, I think the dream that the lone little-guy inventor can make it big is a myth that hasn't been possible for decades. So many large corporations own so many patents on basic, obvious and trivial stuff, that your invention likely violates some patents.

How you plan on recouping costs on your patent? You haven't shown much ability to actually make anything with this brewery, so unlikely that you will move into building and selling your invention. Most companies that produce stuff have their own R&D departments and only license patents from other big guys (usually after they are sued). Hell, the Chinese don't give a damn about patents and will manufacture anything anyway. There are investment firms that buy patents and try to monetize them. But they buy at bargain basement prices, since they are taking all the risk. And finally there are patent trolls: just wait until someone starts making your invention or something similar and start suing (probably unlikely in your case, and big capital investment in lawyers needed). Of course the lawyer is not going to tell you this, he was want you to spend the money for you to file it via him.

So probably a waste of money.

My background is just working mainly in the software industry. I have a patent application with my name on it going through the US patent system by a previous employer. A bit of a blow to my Open Source street cred


----------



## pablodubloon

I am too far into following this thread for it to not reach any productive conclusion. Please get on with it Bandito. How ever will I recover my time spent reading this thread if there is no productive outcome. I had an idea that one day I would build a fully automated brewing system that would brew in 1 pint lots. This would allow me to tweek my recipes to no end in a really short time frame and I could sample at least four or ten brews in one sitting.


----------



## yardy

how's the welding progressing, fabbed that MLT yet ?


----------



## schooey

Bandicoot? :unsure:


----------



## bum

Perhaps he got sick of getting raped?


----------



## jakub76

bum said:


> Perhaps he got sick of getting raped?


I doubt it. I don't think he was ever into brewing, I think he was just lonely.


----------



## Cocko

Jayse71?

SHould we check the dates?


----------



## bum

jakub76 said:


> I doubt it. I don't think he was ever into brewing, I think he was just lonely.



I don't think you read his posts. Sure, his system was always of a higher priority than the beer but, quite frankly, I have been confused since day dot about how everyone else didn't understand that - beer actually isn't so hard to make that it needs a large sum of money spent on it to automate the process - you do it because you want to.

And he has posted periodically in other threads about about beers he's built in pretty much the same fashion as this system. 

One of these kids is doing his own thing.

Anyway, at the risk of taking a random stab too seriously, I think he copped far too much flak. Flak was certainly required at times but there was too much in total.


----------



## DangerousDave

I have finished mine


----------



## yardy

nice, where's the valves ?


----------



## Googs

hey bandito,
great idea, i would love a system like this...but...you mentioned patents? i think you may find that now you have posted all this information and discussed it openly on a forum you may have some issues. should you be successful in your patent application and then decide to market the idea in any way, every individual who has had comment toward your "invention" would be eligible for royalties.


----------



## bum

He's talking about something else up his sleeve in regards to the patents.

And I'm not sure how much royalties might have been earned in telling him to get his hand off it.


----------



## yardy

i can't really see ipods for cows taking off to be honest..


----------



## bum

This cow will buy one:


----------



## yardy

how do you know that ?


----------



## bum

Ah. I forgot my audience, didn't I?

This help at all?


----------



## yardy

is that you ?


----------



## bum

Dude. Orange is so last year.


----------



## schooey

bum said:


> Dude. Orange is so last year.



so it was you last year?


----------



## yardy

it's him yesterday.


----------



## bum

Soooooo glad I didn't really meet anyone at the bulk buy.

This would not end well for me.


----------



## yardy

well, if i do frequent any ahb functions i will definitely be avoiding the orange headphones bloke.


----------



## bum

You will be strangely drawn to him. He has an undeniable magnetism (patent pending).


----------



## yardy




----------



## thelastspud

Come on bandito defend yourself.


----------



## Bandito

Bradley said:


> Come on bandito defend yourself.



Meh...

I'm spending my time building shit, and programming. My desk is full with a disassembled linear actuator, a grian dispenser etc etc.

I have ordered parts for a home made 3d printer to print a grain dispenser - link: reprap.org

So I will be 3dprinting my own plastic grain dispensers and other miscelaneous stuff. I will upload the models to thingyverse when tested.

With the default motor it would have taken too long to dispense the malt - 50 seconds per 53 grams! By replacing the motor I got it down to 23 seconds - but I still want it to be faster. So I will take the design and print gears and the whole lot to dispense in a few minutes.

Obviously the schedule has blown out, but meh, its my project! Complaints can be emailed directly to [email protected] 

Things are really getting into the nitty gritty. Little details now rule my world. Its not anywhere as easy as I thought it would be- especially the programming - but is still doable.

Once again - everything to do this project will be open source and open design. I dont want any patents on brew shit. I will have a grain dispenser that anyone, even me can print for a price soon. See ya's in another month with an update. Hopefully it will be close to being finnished by then.

Thanks for the support!
Bandito


----------



## Silo Ted

> Obviously the schedule has blown out, but meh, its my project!



Well yours and the collective 2000 community hours that you should be crediting. Just make some beer for chrissakes


----------



## Bandito

Silo Ted said:


> Well yours and the collective 2000 community hours that you should be crediting. Just make some beer for chrissakes



Patience dude! By 'My project' I mean that I am paying for it. All credit goes to the community!

It is the automated brewery that desides when it makes beer - to hurry it up would be against nature. It will happen at the exact time and second that it is supposed to - just as predicted by nostradamas in the 43rd quatrain.


----------



## emdub

"So I will take the design and print gears"
I'm wondering how dense the printed plastic is, how it wears, how long the gears would last and how strong the teeth would be under pressure.
Gear ratios could ease the load but wear is still important.


----------



## Hoyt

Well there goes 20 minutes of my life flicking through this post! All bullshit i reckon this guy couldnt finish breakfast let alone build what he says hes trying to


----------



## Bandito

EmDub said:


> "So I will take the design and print gears"
> I'm wondering how dense the printed plastic is, how it wears, how long the gears would last and how strong the teeth would be under pressure.
> Gear ratios could ease the load but wear is still important.



My questions exactly! I will find out!



Hoyt said:


> Well there goes 20 minutes of my life flicking through this post! All bullshit i reckon this guy couldnt finish breakfast let alone build what he says hes trying to



Really?!? only 20 minutes? 
try spending about 20 hours a week for 9 months! 

You got off lightly! give up and go home now! 

That is, unless you have some balls and want see it through to the end?


----------



## yardy

i've still got faith in you burrito :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bandito

Thankyou yardy, you have been the inspiration I needed to persevere countless times!


----------



## bradsbrew

Onya Yardy <_<


----------



## Bandito

bradsbrew said:


> Onya Yardy <_<




You have also inspired me brad! I thankyou for your support! There are too many to thank. But then again, its not finnished yet. Give me some leeway, some more time!


----------



## Bandito

I'm logging out for the next month so I can concentrate on actually doing shit.

Feel free to comment, but I wont see it for a while


----------



## LethalCorpse

Anyone want some action on a working 3d printer spitting out grain dispensers and gears by the end of the month?


----------



## Bandito

whats the spread?


----------



## LethalCorpse

About eighteen months


----------



## Bandito

nice! Put me down for 100billion happiness points against the spread! I trust your mum still redems them :blink: 

(Its a joke!)


----------



## Zizzle

LethalCorpse said:


> Anyone want some action on a working 3d printer spitting out grain dispensers and gears by the end of the month?



No chance, he'll probably end up wanting to build a nuclear power plant to power the soldering iron to build the reprap machine to build the grain dispenser to make some beer. 

Seriously, simplify. Gears can be bought easily, and found in all sorts of junk. I have seen the output of the Makebot and it wasn't that impressive. I doubt gears built with it would work that well.


----------



## unrealeous

Zizzle said:


> Seriously, simplify. Gears can be bought easily, and found in all sorts of junk. I have seen the output of the Makebot and it wasn't that impressive. I doubt gears built with it would work that well.



You can lead a horse...





That's not a horse I hear you say, but its as close to a horse as this project ever gets to producing beer.


----------



## Banshee

I like your aim to make an automated system but, is this so you can push a button walk off to come back serval hours and have beer in a fermenter waiting for yeast? I can tell you that that will not be the case. I have worked in factories where there are fully automated machines that do all the hard work but have a man sitting at the controls the entire time the machine is in operation. Why? because machines malfunction, get jammed and other crazy things. 
So what is the drive to build such a system?


----------



## JonnyAnchovy

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?


----------



## bum

unrealeous said:


> You can lead a horse...
> 
> View attachment 40943



You realise that you're the fat naked dude embarrassing himself in the execution of a pointless task under your visual analogy, right? Let the donkey be a donkey. To change it's donkey nature is impossible.


----------



## unrealeous

bum said:


> You realise that you're the fat naked dude embarrassing himself in the execution of a pointless task under your visual analogy, right? Let the donkey be a donkey. To change it's donkey nature is impossible.


Sure I'm the fat naked dude - but you bum are the ass.


----------



## pk.sax

Just wow. I'm quite blown away by the amount of planning here. This is from one CAD happy engineer who likes to get his hands dirty with a saw and build benches, install sinks, cabinets, make wardrobes etc.... But I pretty much do those little drawings on paper, never needed to fire up Catia or solidworks for any of my (home) projects yet.

I'd love to see if you made any 3D mockups yet (haven't read the whole thread yet, will go back and scour it). Very good luck to you.

I'd be interested in some automation I suppose, once I get more into brewing and want to more accurately control the mashing and fermentation side of things. Not a big enough drinker to justify a continuosly producing system. Would love to see how you go about controlling the fermentation and mashing conditions to recipes.

Gl again. As wih anything engineering, it takes someone other than you looking through the whole thing to pick up what you missed out, great spo ur in mate. Lots of helpful critics.


----------



## yardy

unrealeous said:


> Sure I'm the fat naked dude - but you bum are the ass.



haha that rectum..

apologies for the wise crack...


----------



## Silo Ted

> I like your aim to make an automated system but, is this so you can push a button walk off to come back serval hours and have beer in a fermenter waiting for yeast? I can tell you that that will not be the case. I have worked in factories where there are fully automated machines that do all the hard work but have a man sitting at the controls the entire time the machine is in operation. Why? because machines malfunction, get jammed and other crazy things. So what is the drive to build such a system?



To interrupt, I really do reckon that there is a possibility for a push button walk away system of brewing, and have some ideas of my own that I will slowly build when I have the time & inclination. In the meantime I am still making beer on a setup that I can observe each time I brew. Daydreaming maybe. In six months I will probably have a thread just like bandito's, big dreams, crazy ideas, unique approachs, all for the automation dream. In the meantime, the essential bling is still making beer ! 

For a while I didnt doubt bandito's drive to build this, but after so long, and with no real exposure to how a backyeard nano-brewery creates beer, and no desire to understand the process through experience, Im starting to think that he's just a dreamer. Nothong wrong with that, but he's wasted a lot of people's time on a mission that didn't even get anywhere near to lift-off by the time his window closed. Bandito, you can read this in a month when you log back in. Brew some beer, if that's what you think you would enjoy. Then retro fit the processes once you understand the subtelties. It would have been so much easier for you at the start of this long, strange trip if you had the fundamentals down pat first. 

As it is now, you are getting experienced brewers, qualified tradies, elect technicians and professional engineers (combination of the above, with the common link being that they brew) ridiculing your project. Show us SOMETHING that's working, please. 

I often go back to the OP and check that the date isn't 1st April.


----------



## InCider

Hey Bandito,

I'll be down to Bateman's Bay this weekend. Keen to catch up for a beer?

Sean.


----------



## Peteoz77

InCider said:


> Hey Bandito,
> 
> I'll be down to Bateman's Bay this weekend. Keen to catch up for a beer?
> 
> Sean.




Is that where he lives? I'll be driving through tomorrow on my way to Narooma for the log weekend. I would stop for a beer tomorrow or Monday as well


----------



## fasty73

DrinkBeer said:


> How will you burn yourself on brewday? How will you leave a fermenter tap open once you start transfering hot wort?
> 
> These are key issues to all homebrewers.
> 
> DrinkBeer


I burn myself every bloody time!!!!


----------



## InCider

Peteoz77 said:


> Is that where he lives? I'll be driving through tomorrow on my way to Narooma for the log weekend. I would stop for a beer tomorrow or Monday as well




Sounds like a plan Pete! I'll PM Bandito tonite.


----------



## InCider

I was hoping to have a beer or two with Bandito on Sunday after driving down from Queensland. Unfortunately as we were there for a funeral there was lots of faffing around to do, and I ran out of time on the day. Sorry Bandito, I was really looking forward to catching up.

Here is a pic from Batemans Bay taken at 9am Monday morning (27th Sept). What's funny is the pizza crusts lying around :lol:


----------



## bradsbrew

InCider said:


> I was hoping to have a beer or two with Bandito on Sunday after driving down from Queensland. Unfortunately as we were there for a funeral there was lots of faffing around to do, and I ran out of time on the day. Sorry Bandito, I was really looking forward to catching up.
> 
> Here is a pic from Batemans Bay taken at 9am Monday morning (27th Sept). What's funny is the pizza crusts lying around :lol:
> 
> View attachment 41146



Sean, when you bent over to pick up a peice of fully automated pizza crust did something fall out of your fully automated man love hole.


----------



## yardy

Bandito said:


> I'm logging out for the next month so I can concentrate on actually doing shit.
> 
> Feel free to comment, but I wont see it for a while





where the bloody hell are ya ?


----------



## thelastspud

Hows it all going bandito any progress in the last couple of months ?


----------



## Bandito

Okay, so I am still doing this. Work always gets too busy by september to be working on something like this, and thankfully it is now over. 

Right now I am building the 3d printer - there was a huge delay in the arrival of parts, and have only just started putting it together today!

After christmas I should have the time and energy to get back into this project on the scale I am used to.

Until then, Merry Christmas!


----------



## bum

Godfuckit! You were supposed to come back with images of glorious beer being drunk by naked women. Not this shit about not having done anything yet.


----------



## Bandito

That is my life goal too - I am just as disapointed! Even more so!


----------



## Whiteferret

bum said:


> Godfuckit! You were supposed to come back with images of glorious beer being drunk by naked women. Not this shit about not having done anything yet.




+1
I was thinking about this thread the other day and did a search, nothing came up oh well sometimes the search doesn't work well, but **** me nothin since september I'm busy at work *all* the time and a single parent at least I've set up a 4 tap system in my beer fridge, set up a fermenting fridge, set up a trellis system for 10 varieties of hops, a vegie patch and grown acres of weeds(**** all this rain) which Ive been spraying and mowing for hours each week(must install a stubbie holder on the ride on :icon_cheers: ) cant wait until Silicon Chip bring out a kit for their new USB data logger so I can build it to monitor all my ferment and fridge temps and I will have to learn how to programme it to talk to ds1820 temp sensors.
But yeah i suppose you've been busy.


----------



## yardy

give burrito a ******* break you blokes, first things first, a 3D printer is an integral component in the whole beer making thingy...


bloody hell, some people.....


----------



## unrealeous

Bandito said:


> Do you really want me to abandon the project that on the current schedule will be assembled and ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days?


Not long to wait now everyone and this baby is going to produce some serious BEER.


----------



## Silo Ted

yardy said:


> give burrito a ******* break you blokes, first things first, a 3D printer is an integral component in the whole beer making thingy...




Exactly. I know I couldn't make a good beer without the right printer gear. 

Right now I'm printing off a big sign for Burrito that says WANKER.


----------



## Zizzle

Maybe Burrito is having trouble with tray 3 on his printer too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISrRmFi13m0#t=15s


----------



## InCider

Good to hear from you Bandito. Get cracking when you can


----------



## yardy

finished the printer yet...


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Why are people so unkind ? Einstein was also considered a crack pot and see how he changed the world. Mind you his theory about totally automated brewing systems was fu.ked.
GB


----------



## Bandito

I think my power issues are solved. Just moved, and the shed has 3 power fuses that run 2 x 4 10A socket boards and 1 x 15A socket.







Also ordered an inline chemical doser called a Dosatron. It will be hooked up to a cold water tap that has a flow of about 27L per minute and injects and mixes between 1 and 5% of chemicals - Saniclean or PBW solution or plain water selectable with valves. The PBW will have to be dissolved, and the saniclean diluted also so the same dosing rate works for both. It uses pistons which are powered by the mains water inlet, and is designed for this exact purpose.
http://www.watersanitationhygiene.org/Refe...20Catalogue.pdf 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I've decided on the sprayball model to use. Its not actually a sprayball as they require about 80L per minute to work. This is a rotating head tank washer called a Torus 50. Its made by Breconcherry and sold by Tecpro in aus. It works at flows and pressures of 10L per minute at 0.5 bar to 40L per minute at 4 Bar. They are on special at the moment for just over $100. I'll use a stainless/teflon welded version with 360deg spray pattern for the fermenter and keg cleaner. And probably 3/8" BSP with 180deg pattern for the MLT and Kettle. Its the most low flow product I could find, everything else needs at least 80L per minute. It sure is going to chew through the pbw though.




http://www.tecpro.com.au/tank-cleaning-breconcherry.htm

I was thinking of using a Karchar to mix the chemicals and provide the flow as they output 5.5L of water and suck up 0.3L of chemical per minute, but the pressure is way too much and the flow not enough.


----------



## ben_sa

Welcome back Bandito!


----------



## yardy

gday burrito, made any beer yet mate ?


----------



## ampy

Bandito said:


> I think my power issues are solved. Just moved, and the shed has 3 power fuses that run 2 x 4 10A socket boards and 1 x 15A socket.



Thats also a three phase circuit breaker/main switch you may have 3 phase in the shed, unless who ever wired it up used leftovers in the sub board


----------



## Bandito

No beer made yet. After waiting for 2 months, the last part for the printer did arrive last week so can put it together when finnished moving.





And grain hopper design is finnished. Movie> 



Yea, I figure its 3 x 15A circuits - thats why I moved here :icon_drool2: 
It does seem strange that two of the circuits power standard 10A boards and one runs the single proper 15A Socket with the large earth.


----------



## ampy

Bandito said:


> No beer made yet. After waiting for 2 months, the last part for the printer did arrive last week so can put it together when finnished moving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And grain hopper design is finnished. Movie>
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I figure its 3 x 15A circuits - thats why I moved here :icon_drool2:
> It does seem strange that two of the circuits power standard 10A boards and one runs the single proper 15A Socket with the large earth.


I'd get the wiring checked out Bandito, If those 2 10amp cb's are protecting those 4 gang power pionts they will constantly trip the breaker as soon as something like and element or somethinng is plugged in. 10amp power circuits should be run in 2.5mm tps and protected by a 16 -20amp breaker.
The 15 amp circuit should be run in 2.5mm and also protected by 16 - 20amp breaker, but only 1 per circuit.


----------



## Bandito

Oh yea, I was so focused on the small writing I didnt see the big C10! That is really strange! I didnt get time this week to have it checked, but will soon, and have the 10A CB'c replaced if possible. Thanks. 

The main fuse for the shed in the house power box is 63A.


----------



## InCider

Good to hear from you Bandito.How long is your lease at this place?

InCider.


----------



## Bandito

12 months. I think I know what your getting at though - if I move again I may not have as much power. So while it is tempting to make use of it, I need to stick to a max of 2 x 10A circuits for the heating. Planning on 2 arc elements of the shape shown below so I can get two in just half of the kettle. This way it wont hit the low side of the butterfly as it opens. They may need to be seperated vertically to get them in. I'm thinking 2 x 1800W elements. If I move again, not too sure what I will do, but planning of buying/building next move anyway.







Here are a couple of videos to show how the butterfly moves. The movement of the false bottom is still pissing me orf. It seems I need springs to make contact with the butterfly disk because with a fixed pivot point in the wall of the vessel for the false bottom, as the disk rotates the distance between the disk and false bottom changes - so I need springs to allow for this change whilst maintaining contact to rotate the false bottom.


----------



## schooey

Bandito said:


> If I move again, not too sure what I will do, but planning of buying/building next move...



:blink:

Hope you're not planning on building it yerself.... h34r:


----------



## thelastspud

Good to see ya back on here. some nice little vids there


----------



## Bandito

Thanks Bradley and others :icon_chickcheers: 

In terms of the size and shape of both the MLT and Kettle, I'm thinking about this size, which is 60cm tall, 30cm diameter and a volume of 42 litres. The top will have the cleaning sprayer in it, so taking 10cm off for that and its 50cm and 35 litres. Sure does look tall and skinny.


----------



## thelastspud

Why do you have 4 computer monitors there? seems like a few too many is it something to do with CAD or the like?


----------



## argon

Bradley said:


> Why do you have 4 computer monitors there? seems like a few too many is it something to do with CAD or the like?


 :icon_offtopic: when doing parametric CAD (or in my case BIM) can never have too many monitors


----------



## kelbygreen

:icon_offtopic: Because he can  I only have 2 monitors but have seen up to 8 lol but the 8 I see was hooked up to look like 1 monitor dunno why they didnt just buy a big widescreen for it. I got 23" for my general computing and a 48" for movies and games but most games are played on 23" as windows decides it wont send 6.1 surround sound threw s/pdif but some how linux can do it :S go figure


----------



## unrealeous

Good to see you back Bandito - thought we might have lost you inside some converted farm machinery.

Impressive MLT.


----------



## Punkal

At my old job the more monitory and the number of 24 inch monitors you had determined how important you were...


----------



## Bandito

I tried not to make this about the monitors, but I wanted to be forced to stare at the mock up, so I put it right in front of the couch, and the butterfly is frekin heavy so just left it where it was. 

So first off the right two monitors are connected to the internet pc where I can watch legally downloaded movies and browse the web and do research for the brewery. That pc has 8GB of ram but over the last few days I have opened so many browser windows researching dosing pumps, sprayballs and today elements that it actually ran out of ram!

The left two monitors are connected to Jessica - the brew pc, it has 2gb of ram and runs solidworks for modeling the brewery, and labview for programming the brewery, and watching tv using a usb tv stick.

I have used dual monitor pc's at work for the last 10 years so using one monitor at home feels like using a nokia for browsing the web.

The monitors are bargain basement $270 models (even the two 3d samsungs on the right), so its not as if I have forked out thousands for a widescreen TV - infact I dont even have a TV - thats what the pc's are for. Only trouble is that I cant get the usb tv tuner to pick up a signal at this new place I have moved into last week. Luckily I have beer or I might go crazy! 

The short answer is technology is so cheap these days there is no reason not to.

This is the MLT and Kettle shortened to 50cm high and is 35 litres total volume or 28 litres with the top 10cm taken off for the washer. It looks more in proportion, but I think the volume for the kettle is a bit small, so will probably stick with the 60cm high one posted above. The next step is to make a mockup of the spray washer and design the shape of the lids. The lids is where the hard work is - so much going into them - grain, hops, washing inlet, sparging inlet, steam coming out etc.





And the 3 parts for the printer that set the whole project back 2 months while I waited for them to arrive: A roll of Kapton sticky tape for insulation that can be used upto about 240 degC, an unmachined block of PEEK plastic for insulation that can hold its shape upto about 260 degC and a machined aluminium heater block. Pissed orf it took so long! But that has happened all through this project so I shouldnt be supprised.





The element I said I decided to use is called a sickle. Will call the company mentioned in this thread to find out which material is reccomended: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=42495


----------



## mika

Mash tun sounds too tall and skinny, I can't remember where I read it, but a depth/diameter ratio of 1:1 (or as close to) is preferred for most brewery vessels. There's good economic sense behind it for a kettle. And it's the 'rule' we work to for processing tanks at work, which include agitated tanks as you might find if using a mash rake (especially if it's reversible for emptying the mash tun)


----------



## joshuahardie

Good to see you back on the case, Bandito


----------



## argon

Punkal said:


> At my old job the more monitory and the number of 24 inch monitors you had determined how important you were...


 :icon_offtopic: haha quite the opposite here... when you no longer have to draw, your worth more


----------



## Zizzle

argon said:


> :icon_offtopic: haha quite the opposite here... when you no longer have to draw, your worth more



+1, no cad used in design and construction of either of my brewbots. Only recently did the schematics for the design competition.

Not that I can't, it's just that it doesn't offer much value for one-off prototypes. 1 minute with pencil and paper will be just as good as 1 hour in front of CAD.

Besides, I'd rather be in the workshop than in front of the nerd box. 

If you think you are going to be able to print parts, you are doing it wrong. The output of most 3D printers isn't that smooth or true or strong. At the end of the day it's still a few blobs of melted plastic.

Each to his own. Glad to see you back at it Bandito.


----------



## pimpsqueak

I just want to see this 3D printer of yours in action...


----------



## Bandito

mika said:


> Mash tun sounds too tall and skinny, I can't remember where I read it, but a depth/diameter ratio of 1:1 (or as close to) is preferred for most brewery vessels. There's good economic sense behind it for a kettle. And it's the 'rule' we work to for processing tanks at work, which include agitated tanks as you might find if using a mash rake (especially if it's reversible for emptying the mash tun)



Yea, I realised that when I ordered the butterfly valves, but may just be an optical illusion because it is 30cm diameter, and at 30cm high it would be 20 litres. The rest of the hight is for liquid to evaporate, boilover protection and stuff like the washer nossle - It just looks wrong!



pimpsqueak said:


> I just want to see this 3D printer of yours in action...



Sure has been a lot of talk about it huh! If you cant wait the 12 months it will probably take to install the last 3 parts :unsure: you can always google 'reprap mendel' and see plenty of vids on youtube. Seroiusly though, its only a few hours to install and a few weeks to calibrate and tweak the print quality - The circuits do power on at the moment. Settling in to the new place and cleaning the old place is the priority at the moment though.


----------



## Bandito

It seems the false bottom rotation issue is solved. The issue was that when the false bottom is rotated about a pivot point directly above the butterfly valve's pivot point, as the butterfly disk rotates the false bottom gets closer and closer - to the point where they touch each other after just a quarter of a turn of the disk.
This seems to have been solved by moving the false bottom's pivot point (axis) horizontally so it is closer to the downward moving half of the disk. This way the disk can be rotated to an almost 90 degree (vertical) angle and thus maximise the area for the grain to fall out of the MLT. I'm still to tweak it and find out if it can go vertical, but there is an Animated video below> 




I also made a mock up of the rotating tank washer (sprayball), and installed it in the cardboard mockup of the MLT/kettle. due to it being very close to the lid, it seems as though I wont need a 360 degree version and a 180 degree spray pattern will suffice.










But to make sure the spray pattern is effective I have decided to make a mockup version of the MLT using perspex so I can see how it cleans out the spent grain and how the mixer mixes the grain. At the moment I am thinking of having a motorised mixer offset towards one side of the MLT. Theory is that it would be like having only one beater in a cake mixer, and might improve the mixing as opposed to one centrally. This would allow the mixer to be on the low side of the butterfly valve so as not to hit it as the disk rotates, and free up the central space in the lid for the rotating tank washer. The diameter of the mixer will only be half the diameter of the vessel.

The first try rolling acrylic sheet using an electric heat gun did not turn out well at all:> 





Will retry next weekend by constructing a 90cm x 60cm x 12cm high oven out of wood and once the whole sheet of acrylic has reached its plastic temperature where it can be shaped, rolling on a form - either a 300mm log or something similar.

This way I hope to be able to see any areas that arent washed by the tank washer before its made in stainless by http://www.tripleninestainless.com.au/orbital.html which I doubt will be cheap.

Next stage is to make mockups of the air inlet and steam outlet tubes for the kettle - it will have a lid, and will have air pumped in so the steam is forced out. This outlet will go through a coil in the HLT to help to heat the sparge water for the next batch that will be mashing while the kettle boils the previous batch


----------



## Kieren

Bandito said:


> Sure has been a lot of talk about it huh! If you cant wait the 12 months it will probably take to install the last 3 parts :unsure: you can always google 'reprap mendel' and see plenty of vids on youtube. Seroiusly though, its only a few hours to install and a few weeks to calibrate and tweak the print quality - The circuits do power on at the moment. Settling in to the new place and cleaning the old place is the priority at the moment though.



Hi Bandito, 

Been following this thread very sporadically but most of this talk about automation is above my head. I have missed something, how does one of these 3D printers help me make beer?

Kieren


----------



## Bandito

Kieren said:


> Hi Bandito,
> 
> Snip:
> how does one of these 3D printers help me make beer?
> 
> Kieren



I doubt a 3d printer would help you make beer. But in my case - 

The 3d printer is purely to make the rotary valve that will dispense accurate volumes of grain to the mill. 

The following video is of the 3d model that will be printed and assembled. 

It looks like there will be at least 3 of them - one for each type of malt. Specialty malts may have to be mixed together to make do with only three. All three feed into the one marga mill motorised by a drill on a 3d printed frame. Thats about its only uses.



 

If it all works, or when it all works, you or any other brewer wont need a 3d printer because I will have one that I can print stuff for you for the cost of the plastic plus postage


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## Florian

Kieren said:


> Hi Bandito,
> 
> Been following this thread very sporadically but most of this talk about automation is above my head. I have missed something, how does one of these 3D printers help me make beer?
> 
> Kieren






Bandito said:


> you can always google 'reprap mendel' and see plenty of vids on youtube.



It is meant to model parts for the brewery which will then make beer.

EDIT: Bandito beat me to it


----------



## mika

So are you restricting yourself to 3 malts with your Rotary valves ?
I can't quite think of a truly better way of doing it, but for example. You could indivdually weight monitor each malt container and use a loss in weight type of system, with the rotary valve simply acting as isolation from moisture in the tun.
Or with loadcells under the mash tun, you could use a gain in weight and tune the gate open time from the hoppers to achieve your recipe. Material flow would be a bit dependent on hopper fill level, but with a bit of tuning, should be able tio achieve good results.
As I understood it, 3D printed parts were good for looking at, but weren't much good for actual use, particularly with a fairly abrasive product like grain.
Could also use electromagnetic vibrators under each hopper, rather than the slide gate, then the 'on' time of the feeder could be calibrated to the weight of grain moved. Should be a little less dependent on hopper fill level.
I guess you're going to need loadcells or some sort of ultrasonic sensor in each hopper anyway for inventory control and to 'alarm' if a hopper runs out of product.
If you're simply planning on the same recipe time after time I guess the rotary valves should work out OK, though you'll still need some sort of weight monitoring in the mash tun to calibrate the rotary valves to.


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## Bandito

mika said:


> So are you restricting yourself to 3 malts with your Rotary valves ?



No, the maximum number of rotary valves per marga mill seems to be either 1 base malt plus 2 speciality or 4 speciality. Based on height available above the mill. I have sketched the hopper and valve design on paper but havent posted it.

As for the rest of your suggestions/comments, I am going to need some time to contemplate them! This isnt just 1 + 1 = 2, its 1 + ? = X type of stuff. 

So far i've gone for the simple assumption that volume will suffice, and I'm pretty sure it will, but I'll try and check.

Whats the formula for how much moisture malted barley absorbs v's temperature and humidity again? Oh yea! 42! 

This could get just a little too complex, no?


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## Silo Ted

Bandito said:


> This could get just a little too complex, no?



No of course not :huh: 

Why have you chosen to use a marga mill?


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## Kieren

Bandito said:


> I doubt a 3d printer would help you make beer. But in my case -
> 
> The 3d printer is purely to make the rotary valve that will dispense accurate volumes of grain to the mill.



Ah, I see.


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## Zizzle

Hmmm... I hope you know what you are getting into Bandito.

Most home made 3D printers don't print at very high res:






Not only that, but without a heated bed, larger output typically warps as it cools.


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## beerbrewer76543

That valve is huge!

I went on a tour of the Little Creatures Brewery in Fremantle recently. The brewer there said their mash tun had a flat false floor in it. The mash stirrer was used in reverse to push the spent grains outward to a side mounted valve. I think they were then pneumatically transported to waste silos

If your mash stirrer was designed correctly you could take a similar approach...

Cheers


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## goomboogo

Is that mash tun made of food grade cardboard? Good to see you back.


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## Bandito

Silo Ted, I'm using a marga because I already had it and because it seems the only one that easily runs off a drill. Seems all the others need pullys with powerful motors. It is the bottleneck in getting the malt in the tun though.

I've been waiting for that gregs . I dont see anything wrong with it though, theres lots of stuff going into each vessel and making mockups lets me see it all in realistic 3d just as if I was touching it.


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## yardy

Bandito said:


> *Silo Ted, I'm using a marga because I already had it and because it seems the only one that easily runs off a drill. Seems all the others need pullys with powerful motors. It is the bottleneck in getting the malt in the tun though.
> *



a man of your talent should be able to hook up a wiper motor to a MM2 or similar.


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## Silo Ted

What's the build cost on this ? A $150 crankandstein would be a drop in the ocean - and easily driven. No need to cut corners, do it properly. 

Though you should make one out of cardboard first, see how she runs.


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## pimpsqueak

I'm going home to make a cardboard mockup of my new BIAB setup. Complete with large circle of cardboard voile and cardboard hydrometer.


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## yardy

you should fabricate some papier mache malted barley first.


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## manticle

Not normally a laugh out loud kind of person but you hit it with that one Yardy.


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## Bandito

Yea, will definetely do away with the marga. The crush has always been rough and crappy. I have previously tried to find threads on running other mills from drills but couldnt find any. Found some now though. Although they do seem to push the boundaries of what a drill can handle, looks like I will need a quality drill instead of the cheapo I already bought for to drive the marga. Will do some research on which mill and drill to get. Thanks!

L_bomb, I've never been a fan of the whole side door MLT the bigger brewerys use. First I have heard of a mechanical cleanout in one though  . The mash stirrer will help to break up the spent grist, and I think it will need to be rewetted with water to help it come out. 

If I could go back in time, a better design would have been to make it like one of those rotating drum compost bins that are a barrel on its side with a door. The door of a MLT wouldnt even need to be sealed, so just a flap. To empty just rotate it so the flap that extends all the way accross the barrel is down. Absinthes' method of rotating his malter would probably work to rotate it. That would be pretty sweet! Google search for drum compost bin 

False bottom for the ones in the left picture could be fixed on one side only so as it rotates to discharge its grist the false bottom flaps open allowing it to be cleaned underneath. The one on the right looks like its made for mashing - nice big wheelbarrow and all, but is just from the top hit on the google search. So tempting to go this route but no..... Mabee someone else will make one. 

Thats actually pretty awsome!


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## BjornJ

Hi Bandito,
I use a Crankandstein mill, it is easily run by my cheap cordless drill.
They start at $79 for the non-adjustable one.
I get the same efficiency with this one as I did when buying ready-cracked malt.

http://www.crankandstein.net/index.php?mai...;products_id=12 




I made a base plate and the side and top plates from pine, probably just as easy to build it into your design in some way.

thanks
Bjorn


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## beerbrewer76543

For my crank and stein mill I built a hopper the full width of the rollers. I ended up taping up the feed to the rollers to reduce the area by about half. This drastically reduces the load on the cordless drill, which was stuggling a bit with the full width feed


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## BjornJ

good point.
I have a 25 mm hole drilled in the top plate and screw-in a 2.25 litre PET soda bottle in this hole.
Fits perfectly, and with the bottom of the PET bottle cut off it fits a kg of grains.

Only getting the malt on the centre 3-4 cm of mills make it easier to run for the drill and still more than fast enough.


thanks
Bjorn


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## QldKev

Bandito said:


>



I remember when PlaySchool also made that space ship


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## Malted

I found some more prototype construction material


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## Jazzafish

Snip


Bandito said:


> L_bomb, I've never been a fan of the whole side door MLT the bigger brewerys use. First I have heard of a mechanical cleanout in one though  . The mash stirrer will help to break up the spent grist, and I think it will need to be rewetted with water to help it come out.



Have a look at lauter tun rakes. Found this one via google. Basically, rotating one way will cut the sparge while rotating the opposite way pushes spent grains out the hole.


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## Jazzafish

Actually, the rakes in my post seem one way... but googling lauter rakes will get the creative juices flowing.


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## Bandito

Jazzafish said:


> Actually, the rakes in my post seem one way... but googling lauter rakes will get the creative juices flowing.



Thanks for the search term Jazzafish, and all the ideas fellas. Here is what my mash stirrer was going to be - just a vertical stainless rod as the drive shaft and then other rods welded to it along the length at 90 degrees to each other. Will probably change that now.
And yes I already have two bog rolls saved  

What do youz think about the rotating drum MLT? Anyone seen it used anywhere? This forum? Other forums? It looks wrong, but it would eliminate the butterfly valves in both the MLT and kettle. Sideways brewery?


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## unrealeous

Bandito said:


> ...you have cought me 85% into the project, and am way beyond the point of no return. There is not much left to get, from here on its prety much hooking up 12V circuits. Do you really want me to abandon the project that on the current schedule will be assembled and ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days?


40 pages and it doesn't seem like we are anywhere near having a design that is going to work...

You said you were 85% through the project back in August clearly that was just marketing department working over time. Those bastards - making promises the engineering department were never going to be able to meet!

Someone might have already said it along the way but.... why don't you drop some complexity and get something (anything) working! The modular approach - Focus on one area and keep at it until it actually works. 

What happened to your single vessel idea. Now that you have decided to ditch those precious butterfly valves - this could be a goer. You won't have to tip your spent grain out - you can lift it out!


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## Bandito

Okay, so that was august 5th. Well work got really busy the next week, and didnt stop being insanely busy until 2 weeks ago. The busy period doesnt usually start until late september or sometimes mid october. When its busy it takes the little time I have off to recover from the intense work. Earlier this year I did a 35 hour day. I got into work at 7am, and left 35.5 hours later.

The original schedule was based on this busy period. I knew that if it wasnt finnished by mid to late september that it would be march before I could do anymore on it. Unfortunately or fortunately work wise, this busy period was the longest I have seen it in ages. So the brewery had to suffer in order to keep my job and build much bigger things than a hobby home brewery.
Many construction workers jobs (up to 100) rely on me finnishing my jobs ontime - and I'm damned if I'm going to put my hobby above other peoples livelyhoods.

When the work is there you have to step up and give it your all. I dont appoligise for that - its called life. I have to wear it, and even my boss bugs me with 'so when is this thing going to make beer?' 

Havent decided to ditch the butterflys, just thinking about wether a redesign might be due. 



unrealeous said:


> What happened to your single vessel idea.



Zizzle did that already.


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## Zizzle

Bandito said:


> Zizzle did that already.



So are you aiming to be completely novel and avoid all tried and tested methods and designed?


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## tavas

Bandito said:


> Thanks for the search term Jazzafish, and all the ideas fellas. Here is what my mash stirrer was going to be - just a vertical stainless rod as the drive shaft and then other rods welded to it along the length at 90 degrees to each other. Will probably change that now.
> And yes I already have two bog rolls saved
> 
> What do youz think about the rotating drum MLT? Anyone seen it used anywhere? This forum? Other forums? It looks wrong, but it would eliminate the butterfly valves in both the MLT and kettle. Sideways brewery?



I think you will have issues sealing the door properly on a rotating drum. Having worked in mining for a few years, it is sometimes difficult to seal doors on mills or other equipment with a curved surface. I suggest looking at an end door.

Concept is sound, you will get good mixing between liquid and solids. How are you planning on separating the solids?


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## rwmingis

Good to see you making progress Bandito. Looking forward to seeing some more photos of the setup. 

They're right about the mash tun, don't make it too tall and skinny as it affects how the grainbed develops and works.

Check this guys setup http://www.williamswarn.com/, he may have beaten you to the "Fully Automated Brewery" but not to the "Fully Automated Brewery Complete with Mash"

BB


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## MHB

Interesting bit of kit, cant see them running out the door at over $5K, for that I could put you into a 50L Braumeister, a stainless conical fermenter and a pretty tidy keg system would just find it difficult to make first class beer in seven days, but it would be all grain rather than kit.
Big ups to them for being innovative
MHB


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## yardy

Bandito said:


> *my boss bugs me with 'so when is this thing going to make beer?' *




good question.


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## WitWonder

Bandito said:


> Okay, so that was august 5th. Well work got really busy the next week, and didnt stop being insanely busy until 2 weeks ago. The busy period doesnt usually start until late september or sometimes mid october. When its busy it takes the little time I have off to recover from the intense work. Earlier this year I did a 35 hour day. I got into work at 7am, and left 35.5 hours later.



You worked 35 hours straight ... for the man? Lol, time to get a new job buddy (or go into business yourself if you do something that special that only you can do it)


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## yardy

shit, thought i worked some long hours.. you must've been on the Peruvian Marching Powder to pull that one off :icon_cheers: 

how goes the beer making ?


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## goomboogo

yardy said:


> shit, thought i worked some long hours.. you must've been on the Peruvian Marching Powder to pull that one off :icon_cheers:
> 
> how goes the beer making ?



I opened this thread thinking there had been progress. Oh well, I'd better go back to the brewing.


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## yardy

don't blame me..

go back to page 1 and start again, I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit that by the time you get back to here, Burrito will have brewed all styles, twice :icon_cheers:


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## sama

yardy said:


> don't blame me..
> 
> go back to page 1 and start again, I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit that by the time you get back to here, Burrito will have brewed all styles, twice :icon_cheers:


the amount of time you spend lobing in here slaging you could brew a few styles yaself


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## yardy

slaging and lobing, is that similar to slagging and lobbing i wonder..

anyhoo sama, be nice, i didn't lob in and slag, just checking on progress is all :icon_cheers:


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## goomboogo

yardy said:


> slaging and lobing, is that similar to slagging and lobbing i wonder..
> 
> anyhoo sama, be nice, i didn't lob in and slag, just checking on progress is all :icon_cheers:


Lobing is the process whereby an ear lobe is removed. Slaging; I've got no idea about that one.


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## yardy

i see...

Slaging: the removal of an unwanted girlfriend.


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## matho

:lol: Gold yardy


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## Bandito

About to connect the printer and see if it works. The dosatron (proportional pbw/saniclean dosing system)replacement for the one that never turned up was aparently delayed further by the canadian postal worker strike, at least thats what their claiming - been waiting for it for over 3 months now - sent a reminder earlier this week, mabee oneday it will actually arrive?!*!
Other than that, not much else happening, pretty broke atm. 

*Happy new financial year!
*


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## schooey

Aren't you getting paid for those 35 hour days?


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## bum

A slab a day adds up pretty fast.


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## yardy

where's the bandit ?


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## Silo Ted

and the latest development is.................................... NOTHING !

C'mon Burrito, tell us what's happening with your $10k two-litre brewery. Hows the cardboard mashtun holding up?


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## Malted

yardy said:


> where's the bandit ?




Found him




He has been hanging out with Wally and some mates


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## Zizzle

It's been another year, surely this Fully Automated Brewing system has been completed (via 3D printer) by now?


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## mjadeb1984

wow just skimmed through this entire post, burrito is..... interesting to put it nicely. i want my half hour back please.


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## komodo

We brewing yet?


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## goomboogo

Komodo said:


> We brewing yet?


I am. I doubt the same can be said for Bandito.


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## pommiebloke

Holy Christ, just stumbled on to this thread.

Burrito reminds me of a guy I used to work with. All theory and no application. As soon as he "figured" something out in his head it was as good as built except of course it never did get built before he was on to the next bright idea.

He actually told me once that he and a mate were designing an airplane with a "new type of wing" that nobody had ever thought of before that was going to revolutionise aircraft design. This despite that fact that he was a software engineer (and not a very good one at that) and with not one ounce of aeronautical design experience. Funny enough that was 5 years ago and I don't remember reading about it. Must have been Boeing shutting him down.

That could explain the absence of our friend Burrito. Maybe Spiedel got wind of his design and sent the boys round to take him out?


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## bum

So you didn't see the numerous posts with tonnes of expensive gear he'd bought and was actually slapping together?

You guys are hilarious.


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## pommiebloke

bum said:


> So you didn't see the numerous posts with tonnes of expensive gear he'd bought and was actually slapping together?


Yeah I saw all the expensive gear he was slapping together. Never saw anything that would even remotely make beer though.


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## bum

I'm not sure you understood his project - there's always been a lot of that going around though.

He could "make beer" with an esky.

He wanted to make a machine that made beer. Not make beer.


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## komodo

What entertains me the most with this thread is the fact that last week I made a "test" beer in a rice cooker.


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## pommiebloke

bum said:


> I'm not sure you understood his project - there's always been a lot of that going around though.
> 
> He could "make beer" with an esky.
> 
> He wanted to make a machine that made beer. Not make beer.


But he didn't make a machine that made beer did he? He didn't even get anywhere close. He did make a rather smart picture of a kitchen though. h34r: 

It's quite clear reading the thread that the guy was misguided, even delusional, from the start and refused to listen to reason or accept any help or advice when offered by vastly more experienced and knowledgeable individuals.

Still, it kept me entertained for 30 minutes and had some cracking one-liners.


----------



## bum

pommiebloke said:


> It's quite clear reading the thread that the guy was misguided, even delusional, from the start and refused to listen to reason or accept any help or advice when offered by vastly more experienced and knowledgeable individuals.


Misguided? Yes. Delusional? Possibly. The rest is little a bit unfair. The great majority of the advice he got was from people who were trying to get him to change his motivations, from people who didn't even try to see what he was doing. This thread is basically a bunch of blokes saying "there's easier, cheaper and faster ways to make beer, mate". They may be right but it's pretty clearly irrelevent from the outset. If Bandito made this thread today it would be full of people linking to Nick's ~$30 BIAB thread instead.

This thread is people losing it because one of these kids is doing their own thing. Look at Jonathan's similar(ish) thread - how many years did that thing go without getting wet? (Last I heard he still hadn't used it.) Some of those critising here were lining up to suck the bloke's dick because he was doing it traditional-like.


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## MastersBrewery

Bum the difference being, was members could see where Jonathan was going, now don't take me wrong here, some of this gear takes months(if not years) to put together both financially and physically, but staying within the realm of possibility, is something entirely different. If I said I was going to have my brewery run entirely from a home made thermo nuclear reactor; well I'd be laughing at me along side you, if I said it would be solar powered and environmentally neutral some would be sceptical, and wait and see. From what I've read it's simply 'PICS OR IT DIN'T HAPPEN' it has been a while after all, if he eventually gets there, fantastic. But for me it's a long time between drinks. This is not how projects are managed Anywhere.


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## bum

There's _absolutely nothing_ "unachievable" about what Bandito wanted to do.

Not sure why you think he'd give a shit about reporting his progress here anymore. Did you actually read this thread?



MastersBrewery said:


> Bum the difference being, was members could see where Jonathan was going,


I think you need to read my posts again.

After that maybe review your own post. Jonathan's more traditional rig is okay to take forever but Bandito's VASTLY more complex idea should have been done ages ago even though he's got at least two years up his sleeve in comparison?


----------



## ben_sa

Look... a tumbleweed


----------



## Dan Pratt

I just read through that all that stuff....WTF!

It went from a grand idea to some plastic tub herms system on kitchen bench, to a biab option and then into a cardboard mockup built on some heavy arsed red valves with the excuse that this was his lifes work and the real idea was about making soap, **** off!

Sure this was possible and the bloke tried while everyone either helped or hindered the process, too bad he missed out on the best thing, making great beer or any beer for that matter.

Unlucky though Bandito, sure would be good to know if you got anywhere with this. B)


----------



## Judanero

Yeah I vaguely remember reading through it one night after a few quiet beverages. If I remember correctly it was a rather amusing comedy.


----------



## Bizier

I can tell you that if I decide to revolutionise something in the brew universe, I'm not posting it here to be mocked by armchair luminaries.


----------



## djar007

I love that the only thing holding you back from a revolutionary invention is us. That's so Australian. Made my day. And. Dont let us hold ya back mate. Would post a smile icon here to indicate tone but am on my mobile.


----------



## Hatchy

Is this working yet?


----------



## broseo

Well, shit.

I must have spent at least 4-6hrs reading through... Almost every post.

Somehow I don't think it's been a waste of time because of all the good advice that was slapped about!
I'm just planning an AG setup and I think this serves as a pretty good example of how to avoid falling down the rabbit hole of design. You know, first it was looking into swapping a couple of pipes about while brewing, then I discovered camlocks, then the option of using multiple lines and three-way valves, and STC-1000's, then PIDs, and if that why not a full brew panel, then arduino, then Ras Pi, but then I might as well just get a BrewTroller, or a BCS with touch screens, and then it's worth getting a heap of solanoid valves with multiple pumps and then..... 

And then I'll have no idea what I'm doing.

Good advice to just get the basics first; I've wasted so much time looking at "but what if I want to upgrade to this later" with revised design and products, I'd rather have just got on with it haha.
Luckily for me it's only been a couple of weeks!  

p.s. For the record, I think Bandito is a very... interesting character.
Even though I think this project was pretty stupid, uneconomic and ill-advised, and that Bandito is an asshole (even though he doesn't realise it), I kinda wanted him to have his 'personal victory' or whatever and actually complete the brewery. For some reason I expected to see it built by the time I got to the last post.

..... Or maybe I just wanted to lick his balls.

p.p.s. SWMBO went ballistic after me spending about 4x as much time on beer as on her. Beer is good, but not worth living in the dog house :excl:


----------

