# So, I fell asleep....during a boil



## Zorco (22/9/16)

It was a little nap, nothing less than 15 minutes and probably no longer than 3 hours. But suffice it to say... My 48 litres of 1068 wort danced its luscious dance till I upgraded my conscious state to 'functional' and turned everything off.

Now, before the H&S committee have a tanty just remember everything was safe - I wasn't wearing pants.

Morning now and I re boil my wort to sanitise and drain to a cube... All 16 litres of it.

The refrac was useless and the hydrometer almost floated sideways. It was maybe 50mm below the maximum reading.... Well into the bulb.

My immediate thought was: hey, I've got that white labs super high gravity yeast!


Enter you guys. What sort of battle am I about to undertake? The mash was at 64.5 so I think the sugars are highly fermentable.

I made myself a stir plate and have a big flask so a huge starter is possible. I have plenty of oxygen left.

I know that the yeast needs some managing, gradual additions of wort plus other tricks.

But I might be shooting off course in this new world. Maybe viscosity will impede the yeast.


Looking forward to planning this adventure!

Cheers


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## Killer Brew (22/9/16)

Not a hoppy beer so could dilute it quite a bit?


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## SBOB (22/9/16)

so you boiled 48L of 1.068 down to 16L? New Gravity: 1.144?

why not just water it back down to a useable gravity?


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## mtb (22/9/16)

Whoa mate.. you made extract!

Assuming the 1.068 was original gravity (after boil) and 48L was pre-boil volume? So 1.058 pre-boil gravity.
Fiddling with the boil time in Beersmith's Boil Off calculator, if it's 16L and assuming a bunch of factors, gravity is 1.165


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## dblunn (22/9/16)

Yep, just water it down to a reasonable volume/gravity. The low finishing volume may have a detrimental affect on the hop utilisation resulting in a lower IBU than expected but the longer boil time could have increased the bitterness! Let us know which way it turned out, and don't panic (or the Oz version - keep your pants on mate).
Dave


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## Zorco (22/9/16)

Definitely could dilute, but I would acknowledge that as reversing my progress.

Now that I'm here, I would like to commit to this direction. I've spent the gas after all. 

I would guess this has been done deliberately before? JiggaWatt RIS?

I don't mind paying for the loss and dumping it at the end as long as I gained a lot of learning from it. Best outcome is a 22% beer which is phenomenal.... Don't know how to achieve that yet though.


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## Danscraftbeer (22/9/16)

Your own Goop! There are so many options you can do. It would make for good Barley Wine with a little dilution.


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## Zorco (22/9/16)

mtb said:


> Whoa mate.. you made extract!
> 
> Assuming the 1.068 was original gravity (after boil) and 48L was pre-boil volume? So 1.058 pre-boil gravity.
> Fiddling with the boil time in Beersmith's Boil Off calculator, if it's 16L and assuming a bunch of factors, gravity is 1.165


68 pre. She was that high from the mash tun.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

On that basis I get a current wort strength of 44.3 oP. Assuming 75% fermentablity you'd get almost 22% ABV if there was yeast in the world that would handle that.

I know of none.


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## Zorco (22/9/16)

White Labs Super High Gravity has it listed as 25%.

I don't know the conditions that would support such an accomplishment though


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

I'd treat it like a stuck ferment: dilute a litre or so by 50%, get that to high krausen then add a couple of litres of undiluted, get that going then add another 4 litres, get that get going then add the rest.

The stuff at 44 oP should be fine for the few days this takes, there's not a lot that can eat it.

It's not the viscosity that hurts the yeast, it's the osmotic pressure. If you dilute to relieve the pressure and get everything started then gradually acclimatise the yeast you have the best chance of success.


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## Zorco (22/9/16)

Oxygenate as per standard worts?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

Oxygenate the wort to be added before each addition. Your sugar level might be high enough to reduce the solubility of oxygen but I'll have to check that.


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## Zorco (22/9/16)

Also, 'when' it goes wrong and stops fermenting at 1090, can I use another two or so vials to restart fermentation?

What other recovery options are there?

I think I may be forced to use only this strain of yeast.

Does ethanol disable yeast on contact? Or can Yeast ferment for a period of time before being overcome?


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## yurgy (22/9/16)

long boil caramilization goodness.dilute 50% ferment then eisbier it and forcecarb.


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## Mardoo (22/9/16)

You'll need to pitch that sucker onto a massive cake of the SHG. In the meantime, you'll need to grow up another cake of the SHG to have in reserve, and keep it healthy. Snowballs chance in hell of a vial or two doing anything when it stalls. SHG can also look like its stalled, but just go into a slow growth mode.

According to one of the Brew Strong shows the SHG is an old barley wine yeast that has very thick cell walls, so extra nutrient and oxygenation will be necessary to make sure it has the resources to build those ramparts.


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## technobabble66 (22/9/16)

FWIW, i regularly make a brew to target 25-27L into the FV, but boil it down to 21L to squeeze into a cube.
After the cube is emptied into the FV, i'll flush the cube with some tap water, then fill the FV up with more water to the target Volume/SG. 

So far, always worked out fine.

So maybe heavily consider the dilution option, even if it's just to get it down to a more manageable crazy-high SG.

2c


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Does ethanol disable yeast on contact? Or can Yeast ferment for a period of time before being overcome?


Alcohol basically works by knocking the cell wall lipids about so the structure of the cell wall is damaged, including the enzymatic machinery needed to transport nutrients into the cell. At extreme levels the contents of the cell leak out.


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## Blind Dog (22/9/16)

WLP099 is supposedly the yeast used for Thomas Hardy's Ale. As that's brewed to around 12%, but the beer finishes around 1.025, I have my doubts.

I was going to add some comments on how you might get the yeast to chew through such s high gravity wort, but I've never gone much past 10% so I'd just be regurgitating stuff I've read but never done, so I won't. If you had a pre-boil wort of 1.068, presumably you were aiming for a pretty big beer anyway, so if it were me I'd go with LC's suggestions above, maybe read the reviews on the whitelabs website for other tips, and just do it. if it's actually is the Thomas Hardy yeast, it'll keep chewing away for a long time much like other UK cask yeasts (TH is not a cask ale, afaik, but the vats it is aged in are really just bloody big casks)


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

OK, did a bit of reading and as I suspected the O2 solubility will be much lower than normal, probably about half.


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## mtb (22/9/16)

Bottle it and sell it as syrup. I'd buy some for pancakes


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## VP Brewing (23/9/16)

Rule number one: No beers before mash out.


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## Kingy (23/9/16)

I'd water it down a bit and do another boil but adding in a heap of hops to get the bitterness up. Then ferment it.


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## Yob (23/9/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Rule number one: No beers before mash out.


There is so much bad information on the net... Why add to it?

It's mash IN mate, mash IN!! 



My RIS comes out at 1.135 regularly, to get that going, much as LC suggests, I do 2 x 3Lt starters, decant and pitch the slurry onto 10Lt and give a massive hit with the paint stirrer and repeat at 12 hours, at the 12 hour I'll pitch another full cube into it. This will generally go off like a rocket, I've had 60point drops over a few days but expect it to slow. I finish at about 1.025-30 with the upper end being more normal.

As Mardoo has said, have a cake standing by to get an extra 10 points with, can be almost anything at that point as long as it's healthy it largely won't matter. I've needed to do this a few times now, once you get up over %12 it really starts to get fun.

099 is a good choice but don't think you can add it after the bulk of the simple sugars are gone, it's a pretty hostile environment and they won't/Don't/didn't like it at all. Add at the start with your choice of yeast or better yet have a cake of it standing by for best effect


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## Dave70 (23/9/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Rule number one: No beers before mash out.


You must have an old rule book. That practice died out in the 1930s along with the Temperance movement.


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## WarmerBeer (23/9/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Rule number one: No beers before mash out.


No beers before milling the grain. 


I usually mill the night before...


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## yankinoz (23/9/16)

Obviously pick an alcohol--tolerant yeast, maybe even a wine yeast recommended for especially high alcohol tolerance. Then maybe borrow a trick from winemakers who add sugar, concentrate or baskets of botrytised grapes as fermentation proceeds, so that the sugar level does not get too high. Dilute part of the wort until it's well within the range the yeast is supposed to tolerate. When the beer is at high krausen start adding the remaining 1.165 wort, and continue adding increments. When fermentation seems to die down in spite of the additions, stopping or continuing towards gooey sweetness is your call.

You won't get 22 per cent, but winemakers get up to 17 this way.

Sanitation could be a challenge. Reheat and rechill wort? Trust your cube? Dunno. Winemakers work with lower pH than beer has. If you have lactic or some other food-grade acid you could lower pH a few tenths. Some sourness would balance the sweetness anyway.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/16)

The first thing I would do is put some pants on


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## Dave70 (23/9/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The first thing I would do is put some pants on


_Pffffff.. _Whats the point of that?


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/16)

Dave70 said:


> _Pffffff.. _Whats the point of that?


It was something I read on the internet


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## technobabble66 (23/9/16)

Maybe try a version of this, a Belgian "septuppel" attempted by suigeneris:

http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/ambrosio-fallen-monk.html

SG=1.168 !!


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## Yob (23/9/16)

yankinoz said:


> You won't get 22 per cent, but winemakers get up to 17 this way.


challenge accepted


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## yankinoz (23/9/16)

Yob said:


> challenge accepted


Good luck, bur if you go for higher and succeed, I'll insist on a sample before crowning you.

Boston Brewing Co. did an uncarbonated 17 percent beer using the stepped additions I recommended above. My kind nephew sent me a bottle for Christmas, and it was sinfully delicious. Then BB isolated a superhigh abv yeast strain and got to 24 percent. At a price of almost a hundred dollars a bottle, my nephew and I passed. It got mostly bad reviews anyway, but the yeast is under study for ethanol production. I believe that brew still holds the record for highest abv if one does not count ice beers.


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## bradsbrew (23/9/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Rule number one: No beers before mash out.


Rule number Two: Disregard rule number one.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

Yob said:


> challenge accepted


So what are the rules for this challenge? I assume no freeze concentration allowed?

I guess this extends to other concentration methods so sticking the beer through my RO would be cheating.

BTW how are we going to measure the alcohol?


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## Zorco (23/9/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Rule number one: No beers before mash out.





bradsbrew said:


> Rule number Two: Disregard rule number one.


Rule number three: discard your pants at a convenient time


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## Zorco (23/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> So what are the rules for this challenge? I assume no freeze concentration allowed?
> 
> I guess this extends to other concentration methods so sticking the beer through my RO would be cheating.
> 
> BTW how are we going to measure the alcohol?


Fractional distillation. I'm buying lab glassware and a mantle


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## malt junkie (23/9/16)

Ross at Craft brewer has the gear to measure acurately send him a bottle. I do note he aint posted here in a bit though.


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## SBOB (23/9/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Rule number three: discard your pants at a convenient time


Rule number four: no kittens...


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## Mardoo (23/9/16)

How about budgies?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Fractional distillation. I'm buying lab glassware and a mantle


I have an IRS condenser and appropriate ancillaries on the way.

I also have access to an Anton Paar alcoliser for validation (or samples if I ask really, really nicely).


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## Yob (23/9/16)

does that mean you can measure?

I have NFI what you just said... h34r:  :lol:


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## LAGERFRENZY (23/9/16)

speak english mo fo


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

Sorry.

For those not familiar with the techniques used for measuring alcohol, the ASBC standard method was distillation using a standardised condenser, which became known as an IRS or "internal revenue" condenser because it was used to assess alcohol level for payment of excise. Proper name is a Graham condenser:









Once the alcohol is distilled over, the sample is brought back to original volume and the density is measured with a hydrometer or pycnometer. The latter is more accurate but much harder to use, most people use a hydrometer.

If you set this up for a brewery above the level at which the appropriate agency* insists on measurement rather than calculation (IIRC it's 0.5 Ml PA) you go through a procedure where you provide a measurement from your lab which is cross checked by AGAL. Once they accept that your measurements are OK you no longer have to get the separate check before you pay excise, you can just fill out the appropriate form (? Nature40 ? it's a long time since I did this) with your value.

This may sound like a lot of palaver but Abby alone pays almost a billion dollars a year in excise, the allowable variation in measurement (0.2% ABV) represents something like +/- $50million PA. They really want to know that you have the right number.




* used to be customs and excise, probably now Border Farce.


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## Yob (23/9/16)

Ill put this down..

I can get to %14 with just AG.. Im sure with careful additions and care I can push to %18 and then do "other things" like racking onto cake and more additions to get over %20

wont be easy and is a time consuming thing, but Im pretty sure I can nudge it without adding enzyme (but should be allowed?)

Time is the issue.. those sorts of ferments take so much extra care and control..

should we break this out into a challenge thread and have a AHB comp/mini swap?


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## Zorco (23/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I have an IRS condenser and appropriate ancillaries on the way.
> 
> I also have access to an Anton Paar alcoliser for validation (or samples if I ask really, really nicely).


Yeah, well I just ordered litmus paper from Hong Kong.

And I'm getting laid tonight.


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## Mr B (23/9/16)

Dont stay too long or she'll fall asleep


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## Zorco (23/9/16)

Yob said:


> Ill put this down..
> 
> I can get to %14 with just AG.. Im sure with careful additions and care I can push to %18 and then do "other things" like racking onto cake and more additions to get over %20
> 
> ...


Let's go! 

OP with the rule list. I'll spend my 16 on this game. Plus I'll decant off 1000ml (4 x 250ml) and send it to players to cross check my og and compare to my fg when I give up.


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## Zorco (23/9/16)

Mr B said:


> Dont stay too long or she'll fall asleep


Yep, leaving that safely on the shelf....
Other players may de-shelve... But right now, I'm shelving this.... Opportunity


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## Zorco (23/9/16)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rq7a5_tvBPM

This guy bypasses the yeast rules to get his ethanol. As a teaching chemist he ticks a lot of boxes for great YouTube videos imo


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## Zorco (24/9/16)

OK 

Plan of attack it

Grow the cake!: Brew a beer of reasonable strength, say 1075. My wife likes hops for spring / summer so only a little bittering hops, whirlpool thoroughly, screen the wort prior to pitch of 099. 
Drain and dry hop with Equinox.... Sensational

Maybe rinse the yeast with boiled, cooled water and prepare the cake. Decant half the cake as my plan B pitch.


Dilute my syrup 50% for a litre (giving 2l) and let my 099 know what the story is. Gradual addition of 100% wort then on being very careful of sanitation with the opened cube. Keep adding and watching ferment behaviour


Backup plan: Wine family yeasts, The Plan B 099 cake with it being gradually fed 100ml of 100% wort each day in parallel with the main ferment. Any other yeast I want whenever I want.

Overall approach. O2 additions prior to every wort addition and a lot each time, 30-45 seconds of flow - more if I want.
Yeast nutrient at kick off.

Grow the cake at 18 degC with the clean summer beer.

For the game, start ferment at 18 degC and raise them to 20 degC over 2 days after 5 days.


Of course I want to beat Yob and LC with this. My objective is a 20% beer. Don't care if this ferment takes 4 weeks.

250ml Wort and 250ml Beer for verification to LC and Yob. Their 250s to me. 
I'm going to use fractional distillation to determine ethanol content. Again, ethanol volume from a 250ml sample. LC, Yob to guide on rules and procedures for suitable techniques. 


Success criteria for players?

Beer over 20%, then maximum attenuation achieved. Prize for highest ABV as well.
FG to be <1039....because it is a prime number... Why?//// Well Why not.!

Only the three of us with a spark of interest thus far. How about Tuesday 1st of November as the commencement of the competition. Target for ferment finish, End of November?

I need a reliable method for determining OG gents.

How about competition rules like:
1: Post your ferment methodology
2: Post your updates, adjustments to your processes.
3: If you have a transparent fermenter, install a hydrometer and take ferment readings

Dunno.... just thinking out loud.


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## peteru (24/9/16)

Is the result supposed to be drinkable? Enjoyable?

We'll definitely need some sensory evaluation reports.


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## droid (25/9/16)

yeast determines the product - if you are using wine yeasts/champagne etc...can you call it beer? we are talking about making beer no?

I can think of a couple of ways to get pretty high (18%) but the techniques would mean much more time required than one month

I think you'd have to split the competition into *beer yeast only = total abv highest % = winner
other yeast added = total abv highest % = winner ... bu not really beer anymore so who cares


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## Zorco (25/9/16)

Disagree completely.


http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp715-champagne-yeast

Anyway SHG seems to trump on tolerance so should be the better candidate.


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## droid (25/9/16)

Well I guess my point is where do you draw the line - or is there no line?


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## Mardoo (25/9/16)

It's apparently a bit trendy in the States now to ferment some beers on wine yeast. I'd guess the definition comes down more to the ingredients comprising the wort/must. But then, brewers make wort, yeast makes beer...


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## Zorco (25/9/16)

I don't know about enzyme additions. I think that approach should be excluded. Only sugars from grain.

All pH and salt additions OK.
Nutrient OK
Cock slapping the fermenter for luck OK


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## Mardoo (25/9/16)

Can beer get VD? Hate to see THAT in the infection thread.


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## Yob (25/9/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I don't know about enzyme additions. I think that approach should be excluded. Only sugars from grain.


could argue that the sugars are still from AG just being cleaved up by something other than mash enzyme.

I might need to be outside the times proposed.. I find it difficult to get the time to brew and this is VERY specific and will need much attention.


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## manticle (25/9/16)

Open up the time frame a little and I might be in.


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## Zorco (25/9/16)

peteru said:


> Is the result supposed to be drinkable? Enjoyable?
> 
> We'll definitely need some sensory evaluation reports.


Yes and yes. That is the primary subjective objective. Lol

They will need age. I'm thinking year(s)


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## Zorco (25/9/16)

manticle said:


> Open up the time frame a little and I might be in.


I'm probably going to go ahead with mine. My SHG is getting on and I don't trust a cube with so much air space.

We could design this challenge for Autumn next year and coordinate.


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## manticle (25/9/16)

Definitely you should do yours asap.

Just the completion date that should hopefully widen.


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## Yob (25/9/16)

^^ Agree ^^

will need more time than outlined


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## Zorco (25/9/16)

Yob said:


> ^^ Agree ^^
> 
> will need more time than outlined


Autumn next year not time enough???

Look we can consider this again in 12 months time but that's pretty poor form.

[emoji14]


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## Zorco (25/9/16)

In any case, thanks everyone for the help. I'm good to try something.

As for measuring OG, I'm going to dilute my wort with a matching volume of RO water and take a reading.


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## tarmael (25/9/16)

TL;DR entire thread - something something something hop oil half life - you have no bitterness in there after a 3+hr boil nap


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## Yob (25/9/16)

tarmael said:


> TL;DR entire thread - something something something hop oil half life - you have no bitterness in there after a 3+hr boil nap


huh? There will be plenty of bitterness..


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## manticle (25/9/16)

tarmael said:


> TL;DR entire thread - something something something hop oil half life - you have no bitterness in there after a 3+hr boil nap


Wot?


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## LAGERFRENZY (25/9/16)

I think that's Kiddy hip talk for can't spell real words mofo, keepin it real yowl.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/16)

tarmael said:


> TL;DR entire thread - something something something hop oil half life - you have no bitterness in there after a 3+hr boil nap


err..that aint right...not even close...

something about hop utilisation increasing with boil time ( although after 60mins it start to slowly level off )


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## mikec (25/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Sorry.
> 
> For those not familiar with the techniques used for measuring alcohol, the ASBC standard method was distillation using a standardised condenser, which became known as an IRS or "internal revenue" condenser because it was used to assess alcohol level for payment of excise. Proper name is a Graham condenser:
> 
> ...


ATO looks after excise for alcohol now. 
And I thought the production level required for measurement rather than calculation was 100,000L?


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## RelaxedBrewer (25/9/16)

manticle said:


> Wot?





Yob said:


> huh? There will be plenty of bitterness..



Iso alpha degrade with higher temps. So while you are converting alpha acid to iso alpha during the boil you are also losing them. If you boil for longer than ~90min you begin to lose IBUs because you are losing more iso alpha than you are gaining.


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## Yob (25/9/16)

He said no bitterness.. Just ain't right..

I've done 2+ hours and guess what?


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## manticle (25/9/16)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Iso alpha degrade with higher temps. So while you are converting alpha acid to iso alpha during the boil you are also losing them. If you boil for longer than ~90min you begin to lose IBUs because you are losing more iso alpha than you are gaining.


Yes but not none after 3 hrs.

Utter misunderstanding of the term ' half life'.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (26/9/16)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Iso alpha degrade with higher temps. So while you are converting alpha acid to iso alpha during the boil you are also losing them. If you boil for longer than ~90min you begin to lose IBUs because you are losing more iso alpha than you are gaining.


The turnover point depends on a few things but in average conditions it's about four hours before utilisation starts to decline and about 8-10 hours for it to fall to half of the value at 90 mins.

I summarised the most recent available data on utilisation rates in this thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91684-improving-precision-in-ibu-calculations/, the calculator attached will show results for extended boils.

There's a secondary effect that the extreme concentration will likely reduce AA solubility but unfortunately little research has been done on hop utilisation in worts of 40 oP.


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## Killer Brew (26/9/16)

mikec said:


> ATO looks after excise for alcohol now.
> And I thought the production level required for measurement rather than calculation was 100,000L?


Yes and no. 14 below states this. However 13.4 allows for any other method that consistently gives an accurate result. This has allowed breweries doing greater than 100,000 L p.a. to continue using hydrometers provided they can convince the ATO of their ability to measure accurately and keep appropriate records.

13. Permissible methods are:
13.1. gas chromatography; 13.2. near infra-red spectrometry; 13.3. distillation followed by the gravimetric measurement of the distillate or by measurement in a density meter; or 13.4. any other method that consistently produces a similar result demonstrated by a documented testing process.

14. Breweries producing less than 100,000 litres of beer in a financial year may use a hydrometer and a formula to determine the alcoholic strength of the beer, provided the formula is supported by a documented testing process that shows the formula produces accurate results. The records are to be retained for 5 years after a formula has ceased to be used. Individual brews produced in a BOPS for non-commercial purposes using commercial equipment do not need to be strength tested, provided the alcoholic strength that the recipe produces has been established using one of the above methods. The strength of the recipes should be re-established at least once a year.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (26/9/16)

mikec said:


> ATO looks after excise for alcohol now.
> And I thought the production level required for measurement rather than calculation was 100,000L?


OK. Thanks, as I said it's a long time since I had do deal with this.


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## Zorco (26/9/16)

tarmael said:


> TL;DR entire thread - something something something hop oil half life - you have no bitterness in there after a 3+hr boil nap


You may be right mate. The syrup was thick and delicious and not much bitterness to speak of. I can't remember how much exactly but it was an English porter with the fuggles I got from Yob. I want to say 180g at 60... But will check.

Not only is there the chemistry as talked about above, but I was not there to keep stirring in the hops once it held onto the pot wall. A lot of hop mass was above the boil when I checked in the morning and probably not contributing bitterness.

I'm interested to see how the bitterness presents once ferment is done


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## Zorco (30/9/16)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2003.tb00162.x/asset/j.2050-0416.2003.tb00162.x.pdf?v=1&t=itp9f4iv9f627241


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## malt junkie (30/9/16)

Now I realise the idea of this "competition" is to produce a 20% beer using HB equipment and all grain methods, but I would still think taste should come into it. So say score the beer as per but with the added deductions for being under 20%, obviously cosdog would now only be able to adjust AA and flavour with Iso-hops and Yobs hop shots of joy.

Each participant send 2 bottles; 1 for ABV testing and 1 to be appraise and scored by 3 members a local recognised brew club (so take along to your monthly brew club meeting to be scored).
Or if one of the state bodies want to add it to the annual state comp next year and allow all comers for this particular beer. (this would be cool but prolly unlikely)


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## Zorco (1/10/16)

MMMMM Yum, that wort smells incredible!


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## Zorco (7/10/16)

Hey gents.

I have a yeast cake of WhiteLabs English Ale which has demolished two batches of 1070 porter (a big porter ) and it is about 60mm thick. It delivered a very healthy dose of Oxygen in the wort each time and I think they're happy creatures by my guess.

I'm interested to know if the rate of sugar consumption would happen sufficiently quick that the yeast would achieve attenuation before dying from exposure to the ethanol?


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## Digga (7/10/16)

Well I recon have a crack and report back with the findings!


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## malt junkie (7/10/16)

Yeah and while you have round one yeasties doing their thing it may be wise to grow up a decent colony of some higher alcohol tollerant strain to finish with. Oh and add nutrient to your pitch and the stir plate.


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## Yob (8/10/16)

is this the big one youre aiming at?


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## LAGERFRENZY (8/10/16)

Cosdog vs Yob, one ring and nowhere to hide - just get it over and done with sometime in our lifetime - the Battle of the Bitches...


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Cosdog vs Yob, one ring and nowhere to hide - just get it over and done with sometime in our lifetime - the Battle of the Bitches...


Ummm yea LF


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Yob said:


> is this the big one youre aiming at?


Yeah it is mate.

I like malt junkie's plan. And I will probably pitch the SHG before ferment stalls with the English Ale yeast. My SHG starter will begin today and I'll aim to pitch into the wort next week. Throw the wort on the cake Thursday night with Oxygen and nutrient.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Yeah it is mate.
> 
> I like malt junkie's plan. And I will probably pitch the SHG before ferment stalls with the English Ale yeast. My SHG starter will begin today and I'll aim to pitch into the wort next week. Throw the wort on the cake Thursday night with Oxygen and nutrient.


Hey Manticle and MHB,

Just thinking about the autolysis convo in the other thread... Knowing the alcohol will exceed the specifications of the English Ale, would I actually be stuffing up the beer with a massive hit of dead EA yeast?

Thinking again, Sticking with the SHG will probably be a better decision. Opinions welcome. 

and a huge bro hug to lagerfrenzy. :beer:


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## malt junkie (8/10/16)

If you were using a conical you'd just dump the yeast, however I'd go with the big english pitch(plenty of O2 and nutrient), let it run through till it starts to settle, then rack half to the SHG wait for it to kick and rack the rest. Oxygen take up on transfer shouldn't be an issue, the SHG should eat that up. Sanitation is key as always. 

Treat it like a stalled ferment. 

If you had a pale lying about I'd pitch the SHG on it with nutrient and use that big ass cake.

It's purely a matter of _too much healthy yeast is barely enough_ when it comes to high gravity worts.


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Thanks mate, alright, I'll track that way. I indeed do have a cube of pale here ready to go!


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## Yob (8/10/16)

Ive got my brew mapped out, I know what I'm brewing, how I'm fermenting it and with what.. just a little hazy on the rules..

Adjuncts allowable?
Enzymes?
Wine or bourbon yeast? (as additional if required)

we should break this out to a separate thread with rules in the OP for ease of folks finding it in future ?


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Yob said:


> we should break this out to a separate thread with rules in the OP for ease of folks finding it in future ?



http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/92698-competition-super-high-gravity-brewing-2017/


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## manticle (8/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Hey Manticle and MHB,
> 
> Just thinking about the autolysis convo in the other thread... Knowing the alcohol will exceed the specifications of the English Ale, would I actually be stuffing up the beer with a massive hit of dead EA yeast?
> 
> ...


If building a big starter from another beer, I'd be getting high abv tolerant yeast, as fresh as possible and pitching into a pale coloured, low hopped lower gravity table type beer. Rinse the yeast from that and use in an active starter.

I'd also look at techniques like drauflaussen, proper oxygenation (measured) and gradual feeding.


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