# Style Of The Week 21/6/06 - Altbier



## Stuster

By request, the topic this week is Dusseldorf Altbier, style 7C in the BJCP style guidelines. 

Alts (old in German) are made with ale yeasts and are fermented at ale temperatures but are lagered after fermentation. There are two styles of altbier, North German and Dusseldorf. Dusseldorf alts tend to have more hop bitterness and this may be why I chose this type of alt.  

So tell us all you know about this style. Your best recipes, what grains, which hops (spalt or bust?), which yeast do you prefer? Techniques you use (decoctions? how long to lager? etc).

I'm not sure if there are any kits for this style, but have you managed to make something like an alt with kits'n'bits?

It would also be great to hear from those who have made the journey to Dusseldorf on the commercial examples? (not that far away for some on the board I guess.) Tell us all you know.  



> 7C. Dsseldorf Altbier
> 
> Aroma: Clean yet robust and complex aroma of rich malt, noble hops and restrained fruity esters. The malt character reflects German base malt varieties. The hop aroma may vary from moderate to very low, and can have a peppery, floral or perfumy character associated with noble hops. No diacetyl.
> 
> Appearance: Orange-bronze to deep copper color, yet stopping short of brown. Brilliant clarity (may be filtered). Thick, creamy, long-lasting off-white head.
> 
> Flavor: Assertive hop bitterness well balanced by a sturdy yet clean and crisp malt character. The malt presence is moderated by high attenuation, but considerable rich and complex malt flavors remain. Some fruity esters may survive the lagering period. A long-lasting, dry, bittersweet or nutty finish reflects both the hop bitterness and malt complexity. Noble hop flavor can be moderate to low. No roasted malt flavors or harshness. No diacetyl. Some yeast strains may impart a slight sulfury character. A light minerally character is also sometimes present in the finish, but is not required.
> 
> Mouthfeel: Medium-bodied. Smooth. Medium to medium-high carbonation. Astringency low to none. Despite being very full of flavor, is light bodied enough to be consumed as a session beer in its home brewpubs in Dsseldorf.
> 
> Overall Impression: A well balanced, bitter yet malty, clean, smooth, well-attenuated copper-colored German ale.
> 
> History: The traditional style of beer from Dsseldorf. "Alt" refers to the "old" style of brewing (i.e. making top-fermented ales) that was common before lager brewing became popular. Predates the isolation of bottom fermenting yeast strains, though it approximates many characteristics of lager beers. The best examples can be found in brewpubs in the Altstadt ("old town") section of Dsseldorf.
> 
> Comments: A bitter beer balanced by a pronounced malt richness. Fermented at cool ale temperature (60-65F), and lagered at cold temperatures to produce a cleaner, smoother palate than is typical for most ales. Common variants include Sticke ("secret") alt, which is slightly stronger, darker, richer and more complex than typical alts. Bitterness rises up to 60 IBUs and is usually dry hopped and lagered for a longer time. Mnster alt is typically lower in gravity and alcohol, sour, lighter in color (golden), and can contain a significant portion of wheat. Both Sticke alt and Mnster alt should be entered in the specialty category.
> 
> Ingredients: Grists vary, but usually consist of German base malts with small amounts of crystal, chocolate, and/or black malts used to adjust color. Occasionally will include some wheat. Spalt hops are traditional, but other noble hops can also be used. Moderately carbonate water. Clean, highly attenuative ale yeast. A step mash or decoction mash program is traditional.
> Vital Statistics:
> OG FG IBUs SRM ABV
> 1.046 - 1.054 1.010 - 1.015 35 - 50 13 - 17 4.5 - 5.2%
> 
> Commercial Examples: Altstadt brewpubs: Zum Uerige, Im Fchschen, Schumacher, Zum Schlssel; other examples: Diebels Alt, Schlsser Alt, Frankenheim Alt, Widmer Ur-Alt


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## jayse

This would easily be one of my favourite styles. I ussually make them at the very high end of the guidelines and even go over the 50 IBU given as the max for the style and take it up to 55 but in that I use a bit more munich malt than possibly they would in dusseldorf. Most ALTs' I have had froim other brewers are all made pretty much the same even up to 60IBU and quite a lot more munich malt than the 30% which is often giving as the ussuall amount used in dusseldorf.

I don't think the style really lends well to extract brews unless you do at least a small mash because you really need to use german munich malts. You want to mash as low as possible I mash at 64-65c, you want it very malty but still as dry as possible and not cloying or sweet.

I made a double batch once upon a time and split them between wyeast 1007 and wyeast 1338, being it was mashed very low the attenuation for both were pretty close even though generally wyeast 1007 is given as having more attenuation. I think the differences in attenuation between the two yeast would be more noticeable if you were to mash higher. Personally I liked the 1338 one better but really it was very hard to tell the two beers apart, since then I have used 1338 ussually but even once used wlp008 east coast ale which worked well but the other two yeast I think had more wow factor for the want of a better term.  

The hops are pretty straight forward spalt all the way but I used santium an american hop with awesome results, I think tettnanger would work extremely well also. You want a peppery spice type hop I think.
Although you don't really need any finishing hops at all I put a tiny tiny addition at 5 mins, only around 5g in 25 litres.

Anyway if you only take one thing on board when brewing a dusseldorf ALT that should be don't skimp on malt, only use the best german munich malts. Ussually most brewers will use a bit of roasted malt at around 1% for colour, it does not matter at all what roast malt you use as you should not ever use enough to actually taste it only enough to bring up the colour. You want a portion of pilsner malt in there aswell.
Most dusseldorf commercial recipes I have read about are something like 70% pils 30% munich malt but I swap that the other way around and make a incredible beer. The only thing you need to make sure is you do get good attenuation and dry it out as much as possible, remembering maltiness and sweetness are two totally different things. IE you want dry malty not malty sweet and finally you want a distinctive high bitterness.

Thats about all I can think of right now.

Cheers
Jayse


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## jayse

Heres some links to some other threads about ALT on AHB. Might aswell put them in this thread.

Dusseldorf ALT recipe thread from AndrewQLD

Thread started buy halowords re ALT beer recipe

Thread started by myself when I was about to brew my first ALT

ALT thread started by MAH

Horse Called War
Jayse


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## wee stu

Thanks stu, for meeting my request! Looking forward to the responses, because my Alt brewing has thus far left a fair bit to be desired.

I have limited experience brewing the style, but it is slated to be my next brew, so my request had some alterior motive  

I have been lucky enough to taste some wonderful examples from the Adelaide home brewing fraternity, including from an expatriot Dusseldorfian who should know something about the style. 

From memory most of them seem to have echoed jayse's thoughts on malt composition, with an emphasis on munich over pilsner - up to as high as 100% munich, and spalt and tettnang the preferred hops.

My previous alt attempt used wyeast 1007 (surprise, surprise), and whilst it attenuated well it lived up to its reputation as a terrible flocculator. Even after extended condition and bottle age, I still had to call it my duck pond alt. Most disappointing, given that crystal clarity is one of the hoped for results. I'd be keen on hearing any tips on how to best deal with the low flocculant characteristics of the 1007 yeast. Next time I am going for 1338 European Ale, precisely because of its much better flocculation.

And, before I forget, Alt just happens to be one of the style specific classes in this year's ANAWBS  comp. Last year the entries were relatively low, but the standards very high. The expat Dusseldorfer shared best beer of the show with one of his efforts.

FWIW, this is what I came up with last year for my effort. Any help would be much appreciated. Mashing a bit lower next time for a start.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Duck Pond Alt
Brewer: wee stu
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L 
Boil Size: 22.89 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 15.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 40.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.20 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) Grain 67.4 % 
1.20 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) Grain 25.3 % 
0.25 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.3 % 
0.10 kg Carafa II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM) Grain 2.1 % 
73.00 gm Spalter [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 38.5 IBU 
25.00 gm Hallertauer [3.00%] (5 min) Hops 1.8 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 4.75 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 12.39 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 60 min 


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## SteveSA

Looks good to me Stu but drop your mash temp to 65-66C. I'm not a huge fan of the late hops either but that's me (I'll still enjoy the finished product )

Alt's a great style. It really lends itself to big malt and big bitterness! But keep it dry or it can become chewy and cloying.

I'm with Jayse as far the 70% Dark Munich goes + 1% for colour (Carafa prefered), but I prefer 20% Pils + 9% Melanoidin. No need for crystal when using this much Munich.

With so much Munich in there these percentages will easily take 50-60 IBUs and stay in balance.

For hops - I've always used Spalt and occasionally a small addition of Tetts around 20mins but recently have prefered just a single bittering addition. I've found the amount of bittering hops (around 80g) will still impart enough of a flavour contribution without the need for anything else.

In the ghetto with Stu
Steve


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## MAH

jayse said:


> The hops are pretty straight forward spalt all the way but I used santium an american hop with awesome results, I think tettnanger would work extremely well also. You want a peppery spice type hop I think.
> Although you don't really need any finishing hops at all I put a tiny tiny addition at 5 mins, only around 5g in 25 litres.



I've made a couple of Alts recently and have been pleased with the results. Each time I've used 100% Spalt with nothing other than a 60min addition. I really like this approach. Anyone who believes that the flavour impact of bittering hops is not important, try making an Alt that requires truck loads of hops at the start to get the desired bittering. I usually aim for around 45IBU's as I'm not as a enamel peeling freak that Jayse is. Nor do I bother with any late additions. As I said with sooo much low alpha nobel hops at the start of the boil, the resulting beer will definitely have a hop flavour.



jayse said:


> Anyway if you only take one thing on board when brewing a dusseldorf ALT that should be don't skimp on malt, only use the best german munich malts.



Ditto. I stick with Weyermann malts all the way through.



jayse said:


> Most dusseldorf commercial recipes I have read about are something like 70% pils 30% munich malt but I swap that the other way around and make a incredible beer. The only thing you need to make sure is you do get good attenuation and dry it out as much as possible, remembering maltiness and sweetness are two totally different things. IE you want dry malty not malty sweet and finally you want a distinctive high bitterness.



Ditto again. I use 70% Weyermann Munich type 1, 15% Weyermann Melanoidin (good for flavour and also colour at 70EBC) and 15 Weyermann Pils. I mash a tad higher at 65C-66C.

Alt has easily slipped into my staple beer list.

Cheers
MAH


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## Doc

First up I've never tasted an authentic Alt, but have done a lot of reading on the style to figure out what it may taste like to me.
This is my third rehash to create my impression of an Alt in the style of Zum Uerige.
I'll definitely be brewing this again, with the only change being a reduction in the hops at 60 mins.

Beers,
Doc

*Doc's Alt III*


Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.30
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.17
Anticipated EBC: 31.0
Anticipated IBU: 48.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 10.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 47.06 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.049 SG 12.13 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
38.7 3.60 kg. Powells Pilsner Malt Australia 1.037 3
35.5 3.30 kg. JWM Light Munich Australia 1.038 20
10.8 1.00 kg. Weyermann Carahell Germany 1.035 26
7.5 0.70 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
6.5 0.60 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125
1.1 0.10 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 1100

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
26.00 g. Spalter Pellet 4.50 9.2 First WH
110.00 g. Spalter Pellet 4.50 39.2 60 min.
54.00 g. Spalter Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Unit(s)Koppafloc Fining 10 Min.(boil) 
2.00 Tsp Yeast Nutrient Other 15 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP036 Dusseldorf Alt


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## wee stu

SteveSA said:


> Looks good to me Stu but drop your mash temp to 65-66C. I'm not a huge fan of the late hops either but that's me (I'll still enjoy the finished product )
> 
> I'm with Jayse as far the 70% Dark Munich goes + 1% for colour (Carafa prefered), but I prefer 20% Pils + 9% Melanoidin. No need for crystal when using this much Munich.
> 
> With so much Munich in there these percentages will easily take 50-60 IBUs and stay in balance.
> 
> For hops - I've always used Spalt and occasionally a small addition of Tetts around 20mins but recently have prefered just a single bittering addition. I've found the amount of bittering hops (around 80g) will still impart enough of a flavour contribution without the need for anything else.
> 
> Oh, and switching to 1338 as well
> 
> In the ghetto with Stu
> Steve



That was my unadultarated version from last year.

Spookily, I was thinking very similar thoughts, ie lowering the mash temp, ditching the late addition and switching some melanoidin for the pilsner. Not sure why I had the wheat in there either.

With Steve, in the ghetto gutter, but looking to the stars


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## Stuster

Now this style is normally lagered before drinking, commercially at least. Due to various stuff-ups, I'd be very interested to know if any of you have have success brewing alts without lagering. I realise it's likely to be more estery without the lagering but will the beer still be drinkable? :lol:


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## tdh

Crystals aren't used in the D'dorfer Alt.

Use Munich and Melanoidin if you're not triple decocting.

Fuechschen in D'dorf uses no Munich or Melanoidin, only Pils and Chocolate and Hallertauer hops!

tdh


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## jayse

Stuster said:


> Now this style is normally lagered before drinking, commercially at least. Due to various stuff-ups, I'd be very interested to know if any of you have have success brewing alts without lagering. I realise it's likely to be more estery without the lagering but will the beer still be drinkable? :lol:



I don't think it needs actuall full on lagering at all in the true sense of being kept as close to freezing as possible for several months. I just treat it pretty much like most ales and cold condition at around 8-12c for 3-4 weeks and hoe into it. You should ferment at the bottom end of the yeast temp range and some people have even said using a lager yeast can yield great results, this maybe not true to the dusseldorf ALT beer but its also not something that doesn't merit some thought.


Alcohol fueled brewtality
Jayse


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## doglet

MMM MMM Alt Bier!

One of the nicest pub crawls I've had was last year in Dusseldorf. Malty/bitter beers to be had with subtle differences at each brewery.

Serving cask - these were rolled out of the cool room every few minutes and were basically continuously poured until empty.




Zum Uerige - Nice Alt!



Zum Schlussel - Girlfriend ordered a Pepsi here  which raised the eyebrows of the waiter. He made a point of walking around all the tables from the bar to us saying "Pepsi, who ordered Pepsi?" before delivering - tongue in cheek of course. (She preferred Kolsch in Cologne)



Also went to Im Fuchshen which was my favourite.

Couple of points for Alt:
1. Served cold
2. Served in straight sided 200mL glasses
3. Nice high head (~1 inch thick)
4. Drink quick so you can have more!! :beer: 

Never made an Alt myself but it might be next on the list!


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## Steve Lacey

jayse said:


> some people have even said using a lager yeast can yield great results, this maybe not true to the dusseldorf ALT beer but its also not something that doesn't merit some thought.



I did it recently with a predominantly Northern Brewer hopped wort. The malt bill, mash schedule and hopping were all spot on for an alt. But I only had a lager yeast on hand and fermented at the intermediate end of the temperature range, about 14 degrees or a bit lower as I recall. It turned out quite pleasing, and while it might not be an alt by the books of a purist, I was happy enough to call it one.


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## Stuster

Thanks for the info, Jayse. In the thread you started there was a reference to a BYO article on alt, which you will be whisked too from here.

Interesting that alts are served in 200ml glasses, as is kolsch.


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## Batz

There is never a time that an Altbier is not on tap at Batz bar,one of my favorites for sure.
It's an easy beer to brew,that maybe because I brew it so often and don't mess with the recipe anymore  

Batz


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## Stuster

C'mon Batz. :angry: Where's the recipe then?


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## Tony

after reading in the dry hop yeast thread about K97 being closer to an ALT yeast than a wheat yeast, is it worth using for this.

I have some in the fridge and dont think i will be using it for a wheat after what ive read.

cheers


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## Voosher

Bitter and malty like most of my favourite beers.
My first two were extracts partials but you really do need the pils/munich combination for mine.
Made my first couple too dark as well. Deep copper colour is my fave.
My basic now is:
45% Munich, 10% Melanoidin, 45% Pils plus a sprinkling of Carafa II for colour.
Bitterness at the high end of the style guidelines. BU:GU pretty close to 1:1.
Spalt @ 60m and 15m.
65C mash.
Wyeast 1007.
Cool ferment.
4 week conditioning.
Fairly conventional but some great ideas elsewhere here to try.
Must try more Munich less pils.
Must try Dark Munich and less Carafa.
Must make more Alt.
Must get to Dusseldorf.
Must get to Dusseldorf.
Must get to Dusseldorf.
Must get to Dusseldorf.
Must get to Dusseldorf.
Must get to Dusseldorf.


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## wee stu

FWIW, this is the one that finally made its way into my fermenter today.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Alter Ego Ale 2
Brewer: wee stu
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 31.51 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 15.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 50.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) Grain 91.5 % 
0.20 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.3 % 
0.20 kg Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.3 % 
0.11 kg Carafa Special I (Weyermann) (320.0 SRM) Grain 1.8 % 
115.00 gm Spalter [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 50.3 IBU 
1 Pkgs European Ale (Wyeast Labs #1338) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 6.01 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 15.67 L of water at 75.5 C 65.6 C 75 min 


The whole sad story of its birth can be found in the 4hr brewday? thread.


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## Ross

Brewed this one up today for the case swap - Ended up making a few alterations to my ANWABS entry.

Spalt Alt xmas case 
Dusseldorf Altbier 

Type: All Grain
Date: 7/11/2006 
Batch Size: 26.00 L
Brewer: Ross 
Boil Size: 34.00 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.0 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.70 kg Munich II (22.0 EBC) Grain 68.5 % 
0.65 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 12.0 % 
0.45 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 8.3 % 
0.30 kg Crystal, Dark (250.0 EBC) Grain 5.6 % 
0.25 kg Carared (39.4 EBC) Grain 4.6 % 
0.05 kg Carafa I (663.9 EBC) Grain 0.9 % 
120.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 45.5 IBU 
40.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (30 min) Hops 11.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.8 IBU 
1.00 tsp calcium sulphate in the mash
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
2 gm Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 % 
Bitterness: 59.9 IBU 
Est Color: 32.4 EBC 
Mashed at 64C - Batch sparge.


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## Screwtop

Ross said:


> Brewed this one up today for the case swap - Ended up making a few alterations to my ANWABS entry.
> 
> Spalt Alt xmas case
> Dusseldorf Altbier
> 
> Type: All Grain
> Date: 7/11/2006
> Batch Size: 26.00 L
> Brewer: Ross
> Boil Size: 34.00 L
> Boil Time: 90 min
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.0
> 
> Ingredients
> 
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 3.70 kg Munich II (22.0 EBC) Grain 68.5 %
> 0.65 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 12.0 %
> 0.45 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 8.3 %
> 0.30 kg Crystal, Dark (250.0 EBC) Grain 5.6 %
> 0.25 kg Carared (39.4 EBC) Grain 4.6 %
> 0.05 kg Carafa I (663.9 EBC) Grain 0.9 %
> 120.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 45.5 IBU
> 40.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (30 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
> 20.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.8 IBU
> 1.00 tsp calcium sulphate in the mash
> 1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc
> 2 gm Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
> 1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale
> 
> Beer Profile
> 
> Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
> Bitterness: 59.9 IBU
> Est Color: 32.4 EBC
> Mashed at 64C - Batch sparge.



1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale , Nicht deutsche hefe


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## bindi

Love Alt  The yeasts I have used for this style are Wyeast 1007,2565 ,WLP 011 and want to try 036 if I can get some.


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## therook

Does anyone know of an ALT beer that can be bought here in melbourne from say a DM store?

wouldn't mind trying it.

rook


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## warrenlw63

Rookster

Closest thing I've seen is Diebels Alt at Grain and Grape... Not really a classic example of the style though. Not by any means.  

From memory it doesn't even contain any Munich Malt. It's Pils malt coloured up with Roast. Kind of the VB of the Altbier world. :unsure: 

Warren -


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## neonmeate

warrenlw63 said:


> From memory it doesn't even contain any Munich Malt. It's Pils malt coloured up with Roast. Kind of the VB of the Altbier world.




duckstein is occasionally seen around too - basically an alt (but again a bigbrewery version). think i got it at purvis cellars a couple of years ago.

i don't think diebels is horrible - there are worse big brewery alts, like schlosser or kutscher or frankenwhatever it's called. but it's nothing like the real stuff. fwiw zum uerige doesn't have munich malt either (but then does have some crystal for some body).

but it's easy to brew your own alt that is better than anything you're likely to taste from a local bottleo. voosher's recipe above is a good start.


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## brendanos

I see your backing off the Munich II in your latest Alt Ross, did you find the bill you mentioned earlier in this thread to have too much melanoidin, or are you simply in a different mood?

I'm doing a lot of "alt" research at the moment to come up with something I think I'd like to drink, to be brewed in a few days, but don't want to be over-zealous on the darker/melanoidin rich malts, I want to be able to enjoy drinking it without it clinging to the roof of my mouth. Haven't brewed (or drunk) an Alt, but I do like malt-rich beers, and reading about them makes my mouth water.

So far I'm seriously considering...

1.0kg W Pils (18%)
1.5kg W Vienna (28%)
1.5kg W Munich I (28%)
1.0kg W Munich II (18%)
0.10kg W Acidulated (2%)
0.15kg W CMunich I (3%)
0.10kg W CMunich II (2%)
0.05kg W Carafa III (1%)

60mins 25g Horizon
30mins 10g Saaz
30mins 10g NZ Hallertau Aroma

48IBU
1.051 in 23L
Mash 64-65
Ferm Wy 1007 @ 17C

I feel like I should be adding some Melanoidin, I love the flavour/aroma it adds, though I think I might have enough in there as is (have only used munich I once before in a smaller quantity). Hops aren't particularly traditional, I'm confident they would go alright, so long as the HZ Hall doesn't have too much citrus flavour (haven't used yet).

Does anyone with experience in this style/with these malts have any cautions/advice for me? Do I need the crystal? More? Less?

Cheers!
Brendan


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## brendanos

wee stu said:


> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 5.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) Grain 91.5 %
> 0.20 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.3 %
> 0.20 kg Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.3 %
> 0.11 kg Carafa Special I (Weyermann) (320.0 SRM) Grain 1.8 %



Haha wowee! How'd this go, Stu?


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## Stuster

No time to really comment on the whole grain bill, brendanos, but one thing jumps out at me. I can't see that you really need that acidulated malt. The dark malts will bring the pH down without it.


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## brendanos

It was more intended to be there for flavour, adding a little bite or zing to balance out the beer (ala zum uerige), though in hindsight in this proportion it would probably have little to no effect on the flavour. Maybe I'll do a mini sour mash instead.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB

brendanos said:


> I see your backing off the Munich II in your latest Alt Ross, did you find the bill you mentioned earlier in this thread to have too much melanoidin, or are you simply in a different mood?
> 
> I'm doing a lot of "alt" research at the moment to come up with something I think I'd like to drink, to be brewed in a few days, but don't want to be over-zealous on the darker/melanoidin rich malts, I want to be able to enjoy drinking it without it clinging to the roof of my mouth. Haven't brewed (or drunk) an Alt, but I do like malt-rich beers, and reading about them makes my mouth water.
> 
> So far I'm seriously considering...
> 
> 1.0kg W Pils (18%)
> 1.5kg W Vienna (28%)
> 1.5kg W Munich I (28%)
> 1.0kg W Munich II (18%)
> 0.10kg W Acidulated (2%)
> 0.15kg W CMunich I (3%)
> 0.10kg W CMunich II (2%)
> 0.05kg W Carafa III (1%)
> 
> 60mins 25g Horizon
> 30mins 10g Saaz
> 30mins 10g NZ Hallertau Aroma
> 
> 48IBU
> 1.051 in 23L
> Mash 64-65
> Ferm Wy 1007 @ 17C
> 
> I feel like I should be adding some Melanoidin, I love the flavour/aroma it adds, though I think I might have enough in there as is (have only used munich I once before in a smaller quantity). Hops aren't particularly traditional, I'm confident they would go alright, so long as the HZ Hall doesn't have too much citrus flavour (haven't used yet).
> 
> Does anyone with experience in this style/with these malts have any cautions/advice for me? Do I need the crystal? More? Less?
> 
> Cheers!
> Brendan



I agree with Stuster on the Acidulated malt, leave it out completely.
Also I don't reckon you need any Crystal malt in this style, don't get me wrong cause I have brewed some Alts with Crystal malt but prefer them without. They get in the way of the malty flavour of the Munich malts. Just replace them with more Munich 2.
I am not experienced with those hops so I can't comment except to say a great Alt is always brewed with 100% Spalt hops, IMHO anyway.

I am sure it will still be a good beer Brendan. Good luck with it :beer: 

C&B
TDA


----------



## facter

im doing an alt tomorrow morning and i have the following german hops, i wasnt able to find any spalter  .. im jsut finding it hard to figure out which of these to use - obviously i will use all of the tettnager but which of the others? Im thinking smargd atm for some as well

smargd (emerald) (80grams - not much info on this, used it in a weizen and it was nice, spicy)
saaz (100g)
Perle (80g)
tettnager (only 25g)
hallertau hersbrucker (25g)

which and what quantities would you recommend guys?


----------



## Ross

brendanos said:


> I see your backing off the Munich II in your latest Alt Ross, did you find the bill you mentioned earlier in this thread to have too much melanoidin, or are you simply in a different mood?
> 
> I'm doing a lot of "alt" research at the moment to come up with something I think I'd like to drink, to be brewed in a few days, but don't want to be over-zealous on the darker/melanoidin rich malts, I want to be able to enjoy drinking it without it clinging to the roof of my mouth. Haven't brewed (or drunk) an Alt, but I do like malt-rich beers, and reading about them makes my mouth water.
> 
> So far I'm seriously considering...
> 
> 1.0kg W Pils (18%)
> 1.5kg W Vienna (28%)
> 1.5kg W Munich I (28%)
> 1.0kg W Munich II (18%)
> 0.10kg W Acidulated (2%)
> 0.15kg W CMunich I (3%)
> 0.10kg W CMunich II (2%)
> 0.05kg W Carafa III (1%)
> 
> 60mins 25g Horizon
> 30mins 10g Saaz
> 30mins 10g NZ Hallertau Aroma
> 
> 48IBU
> 1.051 in 23L
> Mash 64-65
> Ferm Wy 1007 @ 17C
> 
> I feel like I should be adding some Melanoidin, I love the flavour/aroma it adds, though I think I might have enough in there as is (have only used munich I once before in a smaller quantity). Hops aren't particularly traditional, I'm confident they would go alright, so long as the HZ Hall doesn't have too much citrus flavour (haven't used yet).
> 
> Does anyone with experience in this style/with these malts have any cautions/advice for me? Do I need the crystal? More? Less?
> 
> Cheers!
> Brendan



Brendan,

My Alt about 3 recipes ago was the best i've made, had the grin factor from day 1 in the keg - Roger mellie was over here from WA for the night, the day after i kegged it & I'm sure will confirm it was a top drop. Tried to improve with the last 2 recipes & gone backwards, so hoping this one will have the grin factor again... Time will tell

cheers ross


----------



## facter

okay, well, heres the partial mash that I just did (its cooling now) .. i didnt have any spalt and i have limited amounts of german hops, so I used some perle an some smaragd - no idea how the smaragd will go but it is fairly spicy so we shall see.

Alternity (partial)



Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 22.00 
Total Grain (kg): 3.88
Anticipated OG: 1.049 


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name 
38.7 1.50 kg. Generic LME - Light 
2.6 0.10 kg. Crystal 40L 
25.8 1.00 kg. Pale Ale Malt (2-row) 
30.9 1.20 kg. Munich Malt 
2.1 0.08 kg. Chocolate Malt 


partial mash at 65c

Hops

Amount Name 
28.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang 60 min.
14.00 g. Smaragd 60 min.
9.00 g. Perle 60 min.
8.00 g. Czech Saaz 30 min.


Yeast
-----

Wyeat 1007


Og came in a few points too low so i added abut 100g of dry malt to take it up to 1051.

Got it as close as i could with my available ingrediants - havnt tried this one before so I guess Ill jsut cross my fingers and see how it goes - i opted for crystal as a guide from designing great beers, they said it was fairly common .. but i didnt put too much in, and also kept the chocolate malt down as much as possible.


----------



## jayse

facter said:


> - i opted for crystal as a guide from designing great beers, they said it was fairly common .. but i didnt put too much in, and also kept the chocolate malt down as much as possible.



While it may have been common with a huge amount of brewers in some home brewing circles back in the early 90s' I don't think many people would agree thats how it should be done, daniels even states way back then that he found no evidence that it is used commercially.

Anyway with only that small amount it shouldn't make much difference at all and as is it looks pretty good.


Enjoy
Jayse


----------



## brendanos

Brewing this tomorrow. Decided to keep it pretty simple.

All Weyermann

1kg Pils
1.5kg Vienna
1.5kg Munich I
1kg Munich II
50g Carafa Sp III

60 mins - 70g Spalt (26IBU), 10g Horizon (13IBU)
30 mins - 10g Spalt, 10g Hallertau, 1 plug Saaz (9IBU total)
20 mins - 20g Spalt (2.5IBU)

1.048 in 23L
Mash 64-65C
German Ale Yeast

Thanks for the input gents.


----------



## clay

I'm interested to know if anyone has had success brewing Alts with dried yeasts. Previously I've used 1007 but have just botled one using US56. At this stage it seems OK. Time will tell I guess.

I've also heard that K97 is close to an Alt yeast but don't know if anyone as actully used it for this.

Cheers
clay


----------



## therook

clay,

This is Batz's standard beer if i remember correctly and he uses dry yeast Danstar - Nottingham

rook :beerbang:


----------



## neonmeate

jayse said:


> While it may have been common with a huge amount of brewers in some home brewing circles back in the early 90s' I don't think many people would agree thats how it should be done, daniels even states way back then that he found no evidence that it is used commercially.
> 
> Anyway with only that small amount it shouldn't make much difference at all and as is it looks pretty good.
> Enjoy
> Jayse



since daniels wrote that book we've found out that Zum Uerige uses crystal (and no munich)... plus other alt breweries do too. quite a common grist seems to be pils + caramunich + black. but it would be caramunich of course, not an english style crystal. and a small amount - if you taste ZU it is dry. i don't think it would be anywhere near the sickliness of those early 90s recipes though...like this one - http://byo.com/recipe/958.html - ugh. sweet amber ales should stay back in the early 90s with indecent obsession...


----------



## Ross

I've never made an Alt without crystal, loving the bitter/sweet taste that using crystal & high IBU's gives & had always thought this is what the style called for. Competition results make this one of my most awarded styles as well. Guess i'll have to make one without crystal & taste the results.
For the record, this latest one just put on tap is tasting beautiful IMHO.

Carbrook Alt 
Dusseldorf Altbier 
Type: All Grain
Date: 28/03/2007 
Batch Size: 27.00 L
Boil Size: 35.31 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.0 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 41.1 % 
1.50 kg Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) Grain 24.6 % 
1.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 16.4 % 
0.50 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 8.2 % 
0.30 kg Crystal, Dark (216.7 EBC) Grain 4.9 % 
0.25 kg Carared (39.4 EBC) Grain 4.1 % 
0.04 kg Chocolate Malt (1300.0 EBC) Grain 0.7 % 
60.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.10%] (60 min) Hops 48.2 IBU 
40.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 14.1 IBU 
20.00 gm Spalter [4.00%] (5 min) Hops 1.4 IBU 
0.50 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.061 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.4 % 
Bitterness: 63.8 IBU Calories: 575 cal/l 
Est Color: 29.3 EBC 


cheers Ross


----------



## neonmeate

i like the collision of maltiness (melanoidins) with bitterness (malty but dry) but not really sweetness/fat crystal mouthfeel with bitterness... but we've all got different mouths.
i made one with dark crystal in the past and found it a bit hard going... but that richer dark crystal taste probably works better in a 6.4% alt than a 4.5% one like i made.


----------



## Asher

> I've never made an Alt without crystal, loving the bitter/sweet taste that using crystal & high IBU's gives & had always thought this is what the style called for.....
> 
> ....Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.4 % ....



Sounds like a Sticke Alt Ross


I'm working on an Alt recipe ATM. I like the idea of a Sticke Alt with its more intensive late hopping... so my recipe will be more weighty with the late hops than a traditional Alt. %Alcohol up around 5.5 though.

Researching malt bills for this style is hard with commercial examples ranging from no Munich to 99% Munich. The question I pose is are we trying to mimic an all Munich Altbier with various crystal additions or are we trying to mimic various secret crystal additions by using Munich. :wacko:

From Scratch I'm going with

39.5% Weyermann Pilsner
49.4% Dark Munich
9.9% Melanoidin
1.3% Carafa Special III

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Bittering with Spalt
Flavour and aroma wise - Thinking this may be a good vehicle for some Vanguard hops I got a hold of from the US.


----------



## jayse

neonmeate said:


> since daniels wrote that book we've found out that Zum Uerige uses crystal (and no munich)... plus other alt breweries do too. quite a common grist seems to be pils + caramunich + black. but it would be caramunich of course, not an english style crystal. and a small amount - if you taste ZU it is dry. i don't think it would be anywhere near the sickliness of those early 90s recipes though...like this one - http://byo.com/recipe/958.html - ugh. sweet amber ales should stay back in the early 90s with indecent obsession...



I remember when I posted about that I was thinking someone will sooner or later mention those tid bits.
Personally I like the way asher's is even without the melanoidin malt just straight munich II and pils it makes what I think are the best alts. Leave the crystal for the dunkel and bocks :super: 

Of course it clearly can work with crystal I just love to rave about it not needing it.


Boozed, broozed and broken boned.
Jayse


----------



## warrenlw63

Just as a "slight" OT. Haven't made a heck of a lot of Alts but I've used quite a bit of Caramunich. To my tastes it produces a lot less of the toffee apple and cloying barley sugar flavours that most other crystals seem to produce. In fact it settles down nicely with the overall malt profile of the beer.

Small amount in an Alt would probably be less of a big deal than say equivalent amounts of Baird's or JW Crystal Malts.

I've used Caramunich II in amounts as high as 7% and found with all other parameters being correct the resultant beer still obtained a dry, well attenuated finish. 

Still I guess the only way to set one's mind at rest would be an extensive pub crawl of Dusseldorf's Aldstat.

Warren -


----------



## neonmeate

jayse said:


> I remember when I posted about that I was thinking someone will sooner or later mention those tid bits.
> Personally I like the way asher's is even without the melanoidin malt just straight munich II and pils it makes what I think are the best alts. Leave the crystal for the dunkel and bocks :super:
> 
> Of course it clearly can work with crystal I just love to rave about it not needing it.
> Boozed, broozed and broken boned.
> Jayse



i agree totally... having tried a few different ways, just bread with no butter is the way to go for my alts... 
but if you are going to use crystal malt IMO it should be German and a low %age. 
of course it all depends on attenuation of the yeast too - if you are using European Ale yeast you definitely want to trim the fat off your grist.


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB

neonmeate said:


> i agree totally... having tried a few different ways, just bread with no butter is the way to go for my alts...
> but if you are going to use crystal malt IMO it should be German and a low %age.
> of course it all depends on attenuation of the yeast too - if you are using European Ale yeast you definitely want to trim the fat off your grist.



I would disagree there regarding the European Ale yeast neonmeate. I have used this twice in the last 2 months and got attenuation of 80% and 78% in an Alt and an English IPA.
Both those beers had a dry finish but not overly dry if you know what I mean :blink: !

C&B
TDA


----------



## neonmeate

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> I would disagree there regarding the European Ale yeast neonmeate. I have used this twice in the last 2 months and got attenuation of 80% and 78% in an Alt and an English IPA.
> Both those beers had a dry finish but not overly dry if you know what I mean :blink: !
> 
> C&B
> TDA



well there you go, i could barely scrape 70% out of the stuff when i used it a couple of years ago... who knows what other factors there were though


----------



## roger mellie

Ross said:


> Brendan,
> 
> My Alt about 3 recipes ago was the best i've made, had the grin factor from day 1 in the keg - Roger mellie was over here from WA for the night, the day after i kegged it & I'm sure will confirm it was a top drop. Tried to improve with the last 2 recipes & gone backwards, so hoping this one will have the grin factor again... Time will tell
> 
> cheers ross



Indeed I was - and can confirm that there was considerable grin factor - mind you Rossco - I was blown away by all of your beers - and by the end of the night had a permanent grin.

But I agree - and the comp results confirm - that that was a special beer.

I tried to emulate this - didnt have 'exactly' the ingredients and in fact instead of Northern Brewer used Centennial - (I can hear the style gurus mumbling)

But it worked - the keg evaporated.

As it happens I am doing another one this weekend.

Superb Style.

RM

PS - Brendanos - I wouldnt be putting acid malt anywhere near that grain bill. Just my opinion.


----------



## DarkFaerytale

hey all, i'm thinking i might brew one of these for the VIC x-mas in july case swap, was just wanting some feedback on a recipe


A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.55
Anticipated OG: 1.050 Plato: 12.28
Anticipated SRM: 18.9
Anticipated IBU: 43.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 29.68 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.038 SG 9.61 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
63.1 3.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 2
5.4 0.30 kg. Weyermann Melanoidin Germany 1.037 36
28.8 1.60 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 12
1.8 0.10 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 558
0.9 0.05 kg. JWM Chocolate Malt Australia 1.032 381


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Spalter Spalt Pellet 5.50 33.5 80 min.
15.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50 7.5 60 min.
25.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50 2.1 5 min.


Yeast
-----

Danstar Nottingham


i noticed some of you first wort hopped with spalt, do you think it's worth it? i was also thinking of using sazz B, any reasons why i shouldn't?

cheers

-Phill


----------



## neonmeate

recipe looks good! should be on the roasty side, which i like in an alt.
no reason to restrict yourself to spalt. saaz B is a bit edgier and fruitier than the german nobles but might be an interesting change?
i wouldn't have a clue about nottingham as i have never used it but there is something unique about alt (and koelsch) yeasts - they're not just clean, they also have nice subtle esters and some have a bit of sulfur which add complexity and a long aftertaste... i would go the whitelabs koelsch or wyeast 1007 personally


----------



## DarkFaerytale

cheers neonmeate, i'll wait till i order to toss up between saaz or saaz b. i'll see how i go money wise in getting a liquid yeast, batz and (i think) Ross have had good results with nottingham at low temperatures in an alt. but i guess i could always make another alt or koelsch straight after the x-mas case batch to make up the cash.

-Phill


----------



## Ross

DarkFaerytale said:


> cheers neonmeate, i'll wait till i order to toss up between saaz or saaz b. i'll see how i go money wise in getting a liquid yeast, batz and (i think) Ross have had good results with nottingham at low temperatures in an alt. but i guess i could always make another alt or koelsch straight after the x-mas case batch to make up the cash.
> 
> -Phill



Phill,

Nottingham works great in an Alt - not saying it's equal to an alt liquid, but good enough, that i feel little urge to change...

cheers Ross


----------



## facter

well, my partial recipe is tasting great right out of the primary, im racking to secondary for three or so days thne into cc it goes ...

wish i had tasted more alts so I could make a comparison, but they only had one type in the IBS here - was nice though, but mine tastes a little different ...

its fairly spicy too - not much on hop flavour at all, which is good .. im thinking that the smaragd hops are giving it a little bit more of a hop spice punch in the background.


cant wait til its ready in a few weeks!


----------



## clay

Well, I 've been drinking my latest Alt in which I used US56 (at around 19*C) instead of my usual 1007 (at around 15*C) and must say I'm quite pleased with the results. I probably lacks to slight crispness of my previous efforts but I'm sue if I drop fermentaion temp and CC for a period I'll get pretty close to the mark.

clay


----------



## therook

Fellow Brewers,

I'm thinking of doing this for my Xmas Vic 2007 case swap, can i have your thoughts please


Rooks Alt
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 29/09/2007 
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier Brewer: Rook 
Batch Size: 27.00 L Assistant Brewer: Sammy boy 
Boil Volume: 34.94 L Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 % Equipment: Brew Pot (12.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal) 
Actual Efficiency: 13.7 % 
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.40 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 70.3 % 
1.30 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 20.8 % 
0.50 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 8.0 % 
0.06 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (1400.0 EBC) Grain 1.0 % 
90.00 gm Spalter [3.30%] (60 min) Hops 27.8 IBU 
30.00 gm Spalter [6.60%] (30 min) Hops 14.2 IBU 
1.00 tsp Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.051 SG (1.046-1.054 SG) 
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.012 SG (1.010-1.015 SG) 
Estimated Color: 29.0 EBC (25.6-33.5 EBC) 
Bitterness: 42.1 IBU (35.0-50.0 IBU) 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.0 % (4.5-5.2 %)





Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 16.39 L of water at 71.2 C 65.0 C 90 min 


Rook :beer:


----------



## devo

I did my first Alt a few brews ago now and was very pleased with the result(recipe i posted on this site). I'm hoping to stop by Dsseldorf in a couple of weeks time to try it straight from the source.


----------



## Stuster

Looks very similar to an altbier I made a few months ago, therook, which I thought came out very well. Enjoy. :chug:


----------



## drsmurto

I actually brewed one of these on the weekend - my 2nd AG so i thought i would jump away from the APA i started with. 

Rook - noticed the AA% of your spalter is doubled in the 2nd addition - is this a typo? 

Got the recipe from Voosher over at Grumpys

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 28.62 L
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 25.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 49.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 49.59 % 
2.40 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 39.67 % 
0.60 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 9.92 % 
0.05 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 0.83 % 
100.00 gm Select Spalt [4.75 %] (60 min) Hops 46.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 3.2 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) [Starter 15Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 6.05 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 17.00 L of water at 73.5 C 66.0 C 

Only problem is that i hit 75% efficiency but since i am over doing sparge water i still ended up with OG 1.048 but 30L instead of 25...... still got lots ot leanr but at least my mistakes havent killed the beer. Yet.


----------



## therook

DrSmurto said:


> I actually brewed one of these on the weekend - my 2nd AG so i thought i would jump away from the APA i started with.
> 
> Rook - noticed the AA% of your spalter is doubled in the 2nd addition - is this a typo?
> 
> Got the recipe from Voosher over at Grumpys
> 
> Recipe Specifications
> --------------------------
> Batch Size: 25.00 L
> Boil Size: 28.62 L
> Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
> Estimated Color: 25.0 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 49.6 IBU
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
> Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 3.00 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 49.59 %
> 2.40 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 39.67 %
> 0.60 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 9.92 %
> 0.05 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 0.83 %
> 100.00 gm Select Spalt [4.75 %] (60 min) Hops 46.4 IBU
> 20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
> 1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) [Starter 15Yeast-Ale
> Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
> Total Grain Weight: 6.05 kg
> ----------------------------
> Single Infusion, Medium Body
> Step Time Name Description Step Temp
> 60 min Mash In Add 17.00 L of water at 73.5 C 66.0 C
> 
> Only problem is that i hit 75% efficiency but since i am over doing sparge water i still ended up with OG 1.048 but 30L instead of 25...... still got lots ot leanr but at least my mistakes havent killed the beer. Yet.




Dr,

I got one lot from Ross which are marked 3.3 and another lot from Batz marked 6.6, i hope the markings are correct as it did pass my mind that there may be a mistake.

Rook


----------



## Ross

therook said:


> Dr,
> 
> I got one lot from Ross which are marked 3.3 and another lot from Batz marked 6.6, i hope the markings are correct as it did pass my mind that there may be a mistake.
> 
> Rook



This seasons crop was 3.3. Like all European hops their AA's were well down this year. 6+ would have been the previous seasons.

cheers Ross


----------



## Quintrex

Ross said:


> This seasons crop was 3.3. Like all European hops their AA's were well down this year. 6+ would have been the previous seasons.
> 
> cheers Ross


\
Ross to what extent would you say the drought has affected the flavour/oils of the euro hops? 

'Scuse the hijack


----------



## petesbrew

facter said:


> well, my partial recipe is tasting great right out of the primary, im racking to secondary for three or so days thne into cc it goes ...
> 
> wish i had tasted more alts so I could make a comparison, but they only had one type in the IBS here - was nice though, but mine tastes a little different ...
> 
> its fairly spicy too - not much on hop flavour at all, which is good .. im thinking that the smaragd hops are giving it a little bit more of a hop spice punch in the background.
> cant wait til its ready in a few weeks!



How's the partial Alt tasting Facter? Any left?

I'm looking at attempting a partial Alt soon myself. Just getting ingredients & recipes together.
Great to find this thread.
Pete


----------



## bconnery

For what it's worth here's my partial Alt. Was very well received by homebrewers and non alike...
Loosely based on Ross/Batz recipes. 
I used Nottingham. Also the Carafa turns out to be I not II but I haven't adjusted the recipe since... 
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
TYPE: Partial Mash
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.50 L 
Boil Size: 5.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 46.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 50.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
800.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 18.91 % 
1500.00 gm Extra Pale Liquid Extract (5.9 EBC) Extract 35.46 % 
1000.00 gm Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 23.64 % 
300.00 gm Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 7.09 % 
200.00 gm Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.73 % 
150.00 gm Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.55 % 
100.00 gm Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) Grain 2.36 % 
80.00 gm Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 1.89 % 
70.00 gm Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 26.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 21.5 IBU 
20.00 gm Spalter [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 2.7 IBU 
100.00 gm Malto-Dextrin (2.0 EBC) Sugar 2.36 %


----------



## Ross

Quintrex said:


> \
> Ross to what extent would you say the drought has affected the flavour/oils of the euro hops?
> 
> 'Scuse the hijack



To be honest, they seem better - The Saaz in particular this year are awesome  


cheers Ross


----------



## RobB

Could I use Wyeast 1335 (British Ale 2) in this style? I know it's not traditional but its both a good attenuator and a good flocculator, plus its description includes "clear, clean and malty" which sounds very alt-ish to my ears.

I'm buying this yeast for a dry stout but I thought I might give an alt first crack at it and then dump the stout on the yeast-cake.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## mika

not a fan of 1335, but everyone else seems to like it. I didn't get a lot of esters out of it, so think it would work fine.


----------



## drsmurto

Am feeling a cold coming on so tomorrow is a preventative sick day  

Brewing an Alt. My 2nd AG was an Alt but i ended up with 30L instead of the planned 25L so it was too dilute. Decided it was time to go back to it and do it justice and with shed temps in the low teens this style should be happy as a pig in sh*t.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 33.55 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 28.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 50.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 50.85 % 
2.30 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 38.98 % 
0.50 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 8.47 % 
0.10 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 1.69 % 
90.00 gm Spalt [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 43.3 IBU 
30.00 gm Tettnang [4.30 %] (20 min) Hops 7.2 IBU 
0.5 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) 

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.90 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 16.00 L of water at 74.4 C 65.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 12.00 L of water at 98.4 C 78.0 C 

So other than reuse the yeast and make another Alt (which sounds fine by me) what other styles can i make with this yeast? 

Any comments on the recipe?

EDIT - using a big 4L starter of this yeast so i can ferment at the very bottom limit. 

Cheers
DrSmurto


----------



## Stuster

DrSmurto said:


> So other than reuse the yeast and make another Alt (which sounds fine by me) what other styles can i make with this yeast?
> 
> Any comments on the recipe?



It's a pretty versatile yeast IMO. I've used it in an APA, a Biere de Garde, a blonde, a steam beer and even a porter. Anything where you want a clean yeast. This is what Wyeast have to suggest. Link.

The recipe looks good to me. I made one recently that was pretty much the same except I used a touch of caramunich in there as well. Looks like your sick day might not be wasted after all.


----------



## Ross

Dr Smurto,

Recipe looks good but I'd drop or halve the melanoidin. 
I'm really not that keen on it in an Alt.

cheers Ross


----------



## petesbrew

I made this one late last year for the Hills Brewers Xmas Swap, with recipe help from Duff.
It was only my 2nd Partial, and IMO was a bit too light on colour, but it worked out great.

*Rothenburg Altbier*
2.5kg Light Munich (mashed At 65'C for 60min) 
1.5kg Morgans Extra Pale LME
100g Spalt Hops @ 60min
WLP-029 German Ale/Kolsch
Fermented at 18c


----------



## Stuster

Oops, great point Ross. I read that as 50g.  

I used 100g in mine FWIW.


----------



## RobB

Malty Cultural said:


> Could I use Wyeast 1335 (British Ale 2) in this style? I know it's not traditional but its both a good attenuator and a good flocculator, plus its description includes "clear, clean and malty" which sounds very alt-ish to my ears.



Well, I tried this and I'm drinking it now. It's quite a tasty beer but probably not true to style. The british yeast expresses it's character more than you would want in this beer, despite being very clean. I get a slight minerally finish similar to 1028.

I've either brewed an altbier with the wrong yeast, or an ESB with the wrong hops. Never mind, it's disappearing without complaint.

Apart from my yeast experiment, I used JZ's recipe from Brewing Classic Styles - including 11% melanoidin malt!


----------



## Stuster

Ignoring the style thing, do you think the yeast works for the beer then? 

And does the melanoidin jump out at you then? Would you use just the same amount of it next time?


----------



## RobB

Stuster said:


> Ignoring the style thing, do you think the yeast works for the beer then?
> 
> And does the melanoidin jump out at you then? Would you use just the same amount of it next time?



I've only tried one altbier before (Diebels) so it's hard to judge whether the beer fits (or not) within the guidelines.

I'm happy with the end result. It's good even if it isn't right, and I certainly got the excellent clarity and attenuation which I was chasing. The yeast also allows the malt character to shine, but chips in a few of its own flavours as well. So it had all the alt-ish qualities which it promised - clean, clear, malty - but it just pops up at the end and says "hello, I'm British."

As for the melanoidin, this was the first time I used it! It's oh-so-malty, but that's what I wanted and I think it stops short of being flabby (just). So yes, I'm happy enough with this beer that I would try it again with the same grains but a different yeast.


----------



## SJW

This is one I am drinking now and its great. It will be a std. on tap now.

Dusseldorf Altbier* 
Dusseldorf Altbier 


Type: All Grain
Date: 6/09/2008 
Batch Size: 26.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 33.33 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg - Ale 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3000.00 gm Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 56.07 % 
2000.00 gm Premium Pilsner (Weyermann) (2.2 EBC) Grain 37.38 % 
250.00 gm Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 4.67 % 
50.00 gm Carafa Special I (Weyermann) (630.4 EBC) Grain 0.93 % 
50.00 gm Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (500.0 EBC) Grain 0.93 % 
30.00 gm Super Alpha [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 35.5 IBU 
20.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 4.8 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.049 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.047 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.80 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.56 % 
Bitterness: 40.3 IBU Calories: 439 cal/l 
Est Color: 25.8 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 5350.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 13.69 L Grain Temperature: 12.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 12.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Single Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 15.00 L of water at 72.2 C 65.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 10.00 L of water at 94.7 C 76.0 C


----------



## kevo

I made JZ's Alt recently too - split it to ferment with Nottingham and K-97 yeasts.

Both great, different, K-97 more noticably 'boozy', Nottingham I would describe as more earthy than the K-97, bioth very easy to drink though. Both quite dry, nicely bitter and a great malty smoothness that sits on your tongue. Delicious.

Having only had one example before at the Bris German Club, not sure if it's true to style, but same here, disappearing without complaint.

One I'll make again.

Kev


----------



## drsmurto

SJW said:


> This is one I am drinking now and its great. It will be a std. on tap now.
> 
> Dusseldorf Altbier*
> Dusseldorf Altbier
> 
> 
> Type: All Grain
> Date: 6/09/2008
> Batch Size: 26.00 L
> Brewer: Stephen Wright
> Boil Size: 33.33 L Asst Brewer:
> Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg - Ale
> Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
> Taste Notes:
> 
> Ingredients
> 
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 3000.00 gm Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 56.07 %
> 2000.00 gm Premium Pilsner (Weyermann) (2.2 EBC) Grain 37.38 %
> 250.00 gm Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 4.67 %
> 50.00 gm Carafa Special I (Weyermann) (630.4 EBC) Grain 0.93 %
> 50.00 gm Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (500.0 EBC) Grain 0.93 %
> 30.00 gm Super Alpha [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 35.5 IBU
> 20.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
> 0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
> 11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
> 1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale
> 
> 
> 
> Beer Profile
> 
> Est Original Gravity: 1.049 SG
> Measured Original Gravity: 1.047 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.80 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.56 %
> Bitterness: 40.3 IBU Calories: 439 cal/l
> Est Color: 25.8 EBC Color: Color
> 
> 
> Mash Profile
> 
> Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 5350.00 gm
> Sparge Water: 13.69 L Grain Temperature: 12.0 C
> Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 12.0 C
> Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
> 
> Single Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
> 60 min Mash In Add 15.00 L of water at 72.2 C 65.0 C
> 10 min Mash Out Add 10.00 L of water at 94.7 C 76.0 C




Looks tasty Steve. A fan of Wyeast 1007 now then? :beerbang: 

Going home shortly to have a few pints of my Alt - Link

Similar to yours.

2nd at SABSOSA, 3rd at ANAWBS. MMmmmmmmmalty! Just the thing to enjoy while i watch us beat up the irish tonight..... :lol:


----------



## SJW

> Looks tasty Steve. A fan of Wyeast 1007 now then?
> 
> Going home shortly to have a few pints of my Alt - Link
> 
> Similar to yours.
> 
> 2nd at SABSOSA, 3rd at ANAWBS. MMmmmmmmmalty! Just the thing to enjoy while i watch us beat up the irish tonight.....



Great stuff an Alt. 40 IBU's Mmmmmmm, might even add a few more next time, all the malt should hold up to 45 or 50 IBUs I reckon.

Steve


----------



## cliffo

Revieving and old thread.

This morning I kegged an Alt based on Steve's recipe and have just poured myself a glass.

Damn!! This is one fantastic beer and will now go onto the regular rotation for brewing.

Great stuff!! :chug: 

cliffo


----------



## Tony

Going to mash and Alt on sunday if all goes to plan.

Here is the recipe so far. Im going to give the Wyeast 1010 a run. Suposed to be clean and dry. Should be perect.



Alt

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.00
Anticipated OG: 1.047 Plato: 11.62
Anticipated EBC: 29.1
Anticipated IBU: 40.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
66.0 6.60 kg. Weyermann Bohemien Pils GErmany 1.038 4
30.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
2.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
2.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.034 1100


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
22.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 4.0 45 min.
220.00 g. Spalter Spalt Pellet 3.30 35.5 45 min.
40.00 g. Spalter Spalt Pellet 3.30 0.6 2 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1010 American Wheat


----------



## cubbie

Tony said:


> Going to mash and Alt on sunday if all goes to plan.
> 
> Here is the recipe so far. Im going to give the Wyeast 1010 a run. Suposed to be clean and dry. Should be perect.



Hey Tony how did you go with this? I plan on doing an Alt next weekend and was interested in using Wyeast 1010 (as my following beer is to be an American Wheat)

I need to trawl through this thread to get some recipe idea's and also take a look at Brewing Classic Styles


----------



## reviled

Tony said:


> Going to mash and Alt on sunday if all goes to plan.
> 
> Here is the recipe so far. Im going to give the Wyeast 1010 a run. Suposed to be clean and dry. Should be perect.
> 
> 
> 
> Alt
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
> Total Grain (kg): 10.00
> Anticipated OG: 1.047 Plato: 11.62
> Anticipated EBC: 29.1
> Anticipated IBU: 40.1
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 66.0 6.60 kg. Weyermann Bohemien Pils GErmany 1.038 4
> 30.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
> 2.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
> 2.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.034 1100
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 22.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 4.0 45 min.
> 220.00 g. Spalter Spalt Pellet 3.30 35.5 45 min.
> 40.00 g. Spalter Spalt Pellet 3.30 0.6 2 min.
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> WYeast 1010 American Wheat



WTF is carabohemian? Is that like carapils?


----------



## jbirbeck

just mashed in an alt then. 16 litres

1.9kg powells pils
1.7kg powells munich
0.03kg cara special II
Saphir and Hallertau mix 30g FWH to about 20 IBU
70g saphir to get another 40 IBU.

using he yeast cake from a kolsch... wyeast kolsch yeast


----------



## Tony

cubbie said:


> Hey Tony how did you go with this? I plan on doing an Alt next weekend and was interested in using Wyeast 1010 (as my following beer is to be an American Wheat)



It came out great. got down to 1.008 from around 1.050. Its clean, crisp, and very malty. The hops just touch through enough to add complexity.



reviled said:


> WTF is carabohemian? Is that like carapils?



Carabohemian........ i bought this to try for the first time in this beer and the best way i can describe it is pale caraaroma. It has a similar flavour when chewed as cararoma but is only 180 EBC. It has added a depth of malt to this beer that i have never had before. Im impressed. It doesnt have the dry slightly acrod maltiness of Caraamber........ its sweeter and more intense.

cheers


----------



## reviled

Tony said:


> Carabohemian........ i bought this to try for the first time in this beer and the best way i can describe it is pale caraaroma. It has a similar flavour when chewed as cararoma but is only 180 EBC. It has added a depth of malt to this beer that i have never had before. Im impressed. It doesnt have the dry slightly acrod maltiness of Caraamber........ its sweeter and more intense.
> 
> cheers



Sounds delish :icon_drool2: Is it weyermann? Or another brand?


----------



## warra48

reviled said:


> Sounds delish :icon_drool2: Is it weyermann? Or another brand?



It's Weyermann. http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3381


----------



## cubbie

I have put together a very quick recipe that i will no doubt adjust before this weekend. Not sure on the exact AA% of my hops, will have to check them when I get home. Also yeast is actually Proculture Pro-60 American Wheat.

Plan is to ferment at 16c for about 2 weeks and lager for 4 weeks. Will add some kopafloc to the kettle and gelatine when lagering. When I get home I will have a look at brewing classic styles, which I think is more of a 70/30 pils/munich ratio

Anyway comments welcome



Brett's Alternative

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

07-C Amber Hybrid Beer, Dusseldorfer Altbier

Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.054
Min IBU: 35 Max IBU: 50
Min Clr: 26 Max Clr: 33 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 24.00 Wort Size (L): 24.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.16
Anticipated OG: 1.051 Plato: 12.64
Anticipated EBC: 28.7
Anticipated IBU: 45.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 30.97 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.040 SG 9.89 Plato



Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
63.0 3.25 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 24
33.9 1.75 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
1.2 0.06 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 1100
1.9 0.10 kg. Weyermann Melanoidin Germany 1.037 70

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 42.9 60 min.
14.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 2.9 20 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1010 American Wheat


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 5.16
Water Qts: 16.36 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 15.48 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 3.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 65 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 78 Time: 10


Total Mash Volume L: 18.93 - Dough-In Infusion Only


----------



## cubbie

Thought I would bump this as I would like to order my grain today. Reading the Munich thread I see that Munich is a popular malt although after listening to the Dusseldorf Alterbier show in the BN and looking at the recipe by JZ I wonder I I have too much in my recipe.


----------



## therook

cubbie said:


> Thought I would bump this as I would like to order my grain today. Reading the Munich thread I see that Munich is a popular malt although after listening to the Dusseldorf Alterbier show in the BN and looking at the recipe by JZ I wonder I I have too much in my recipe.



cubbie,

I have 60% Munich in my Alts and there's nothing wrong with them

2.15 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 41.3 % 
1.50 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 28.8 % 
1.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (31.0 EBC) Grain 28.8 % 
0.05 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (1400.0 EBC) Grain 1.0 % 
45.00 gm Spalter [6.20%] (75 min) Hops 30.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Spalter [6.20%] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU 
1.00 tsp Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs European Ale (Wyeast Labs #1338) Yeast-Ale 




Rook


----------



## mika

Are Munich 1 and 2 that much different to warrant having them both in the same beer ?
Figuring because you've carafa in there anyway, you weren't just chasing colour ?


----------



## tdh

Recipe looks great, I usually have Munich around that mark.
You'e mashing low and long too, excellent.

tdh


----------



## drsmurto

Racked a Dusseldorf Altbier on Sunday.

Stammtisch Alt
2.75 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 55.00 % 
2.00 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 40.00 % 
0.15 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 3.00 % 
0.10 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 2.00 % 
85.00 gm Spalt [4.70 %] (60 min) Hops 49.6 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) [Starter 2500 ml] Yeast-Ale 

20L 
OG 1.053
IBU 50
EBC 29

52, decoction to 65 then a thin decoction mashout to 78.

Just about to finish boiling another one only slightly different but i couldn't let a fresh yeastcake go to waste!

Altbier the 5th
1.75 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 35.35 % 
1.50 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 30.30 % 
1.50 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.2 EBC) Grain 30.30 % 
0.10 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 2.02 % 
0.05 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 1.01 % 
0.05 kg Chocolate Wheat (Weyermann) (1100.0 EBC) Grain 1.01 % 
90.00 gm Select Spalt [4.70 %] (60 min) Hops 52.6 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007)

20L
OG 1.052
IBU 53
EBC 33

Single infusion 65C for 90 mins then a thin decoction mashout.

Can't have too many Alts :icon_cheers:

EDIT - spelling


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Damn that looks nice

Too many crack hop heads on here cant give up the 30 & 10 minute additions... 

A single 60 minute addition is all you need for styles like alt and kolsch :icon_cheers:


----------



## manticle

This is my attempt at an altish beer. I've only ever tried one alt and it was a homebrewed one so I've no idea what the original/commercials are like.

This is just a ballpark attempt at what sounds nice:

Alt type

Type:	All grain	
Size:	22 liters
Color: 25 HCU (~14 SRM) 
Bitterness: 35 IBU
OG: 1.052
FG: 1.010
Alcohol:	5.4% v/v (4.3% w/w)
Grain: 3.5kg JW Pilsner
500g Wheat malt
1kg JW Munich
100g JW chocolate
250g Dingemans biscuit

Mash: 70% efficiency, 60 mins, 65 degrees
Boil: 60 minutes	
SG 1.038, boil size 30 liters
Hops: 45g Hallertauer (4.25% AA, 60 min.)
40g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 20 min.)
20g Tettnanger (aroma)

Whirlfloc
German ale yeast wy 1007

Originally designed the recipe with munich malt and no wheat but when I went to crack the grain I realised I'd run out of vienna.


----------



## scott_penno

This was my contribution to the 2009 Xmas Case Swap:

Recipe: Altbier 25L
Brewer: sappas
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Altbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 33.57 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 25.7 EBC
Estimated IBU: 36.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.60 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 54.17 % 
1.80 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 37.50 % 
0.15 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (49.3 EBC) Grain 3.13 % 
0.15 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBGrain 3.13 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 2.08 % 
30.00 gm Hallertauer [6.30 %] (90 min) Hops 20.3 IBU 
23.00 gm Spalter [4.90 %] (90 min) Hops 12.1 IBU 
10.00 gm Spalter [4.90 %] (30 min) Hops 3.8 IBU 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.80 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
75 min Mash In Add 12.52 L of water at 72.9 C 65.6 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 8.01 L of water at 93.8 C 75.6 C


----------



## jayse

That recipe does not even look like an alt, its making me cringe!!!


----------



## manticle

manticle said:


> Originally designed the recipe with munich malt and no wheat but when I went to crack the grain I realised I'd run out of vienna.




Munich in this sentence should read vienna.

Even if sappas' beer is not to style it's still a tasty beer. Don't cringe. Suggest.


----------



## Steve

Planning my first alt for the weekend

9kg Grain bill

Munich 70%
Pils 24%
Melanoidin 5%
Carafa II 1%

Spalt @ 60mins to 50 IBUs
Mash low at 64

Either WLP036, WLP029 or WLP011 (depending on what LHBS has in stock).

Any thoughts?
Cheers
Steve


----------



## jbirbeck

crickey that will be malty :icon_drool2: . With that much Munich and Melandoidin I'd be inclined to up the IBU's closer to 60 for balance. You could drop the Melanoidin, but in saying that I have always decocted my Alts so it does have its place, perhaps drop the % to 3%.

If you can use WLP036. I've got an Alt that used the Wy European Ale yeast and I think that works well as well as the Alt yeast so that would be my second choice. My first Alt was with the Kolsch yeast and I ran the temp a bit high. really nice but a bit too fruity for style, the lower temps keep it a bit cleaner...keep the temps towards the lower end of the scale 13/14ish for the Kolsch yeast, can be a bit higher for the others...but the lower it goes the cleaner it will be and the more of the malt flavour and :icon_drool2: 

other tips from my experience...FWH 10% of your bittering hops. It adds an extra dimension. mash 90mins or more.

I had planned on a Kolsch soon, I may back that up with another Alt, one keg of the stuff simply is not enough.


----------



## beerbrewer76543

I used 2565 Kolsch yeast in my last batch for a bit of ester production which I think is evident in the style... Correct me if I'm wrong

The hops look good but maybe too much melanoidin malt in there...???

Anyway it should be good

I love this style of beer!!!

Cheers


----------



## jbirbeck

L_Bomb said:


> I used 2565 Kolsch yeast in my last batch for a bit of ester production which I think is evident in the style... Correct me if I'm wrong



Certainly not wrong...but restrained fruity esters is the key and I found when I did mine with the Kolsch yeast they weren't as restrained as they were with the Alt or Euro Ale yeasts. temp was the issue I think and hence the recommendation to keep temp down. Subtlety on esters... malt full on :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Nice :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## drsmurto

Steve said:


> Planning my first alt for the weekend
> 
> 9kg Grain bill
> 
> Munich 70%
> Pils 24%
> Melanoidin 5%
> Carafa II 1%
> 
> Spalt @ 60mins to 50 IBUs
> Mash low at 64
> 
> Either WLP036, WLP029 or WLP011 (depending on what LHBS has in stock).
> 
> Any thoughts?
> Cheers
> Steve



Go for it Steve. :beerbang: 

Looks like a very malty Alt and as RK mentioned you could push the IBU up to 60 with that much munich.

I am kegging another Alt tonight, 65% munich and 55 IBU. The last one surprised a few people who didn't pick it as 50 IBU. That was 55% munich.

I've never used any yeast other than WY1007 in an Alt so cant comment on the yeasts. Something that attenuates well, doesn't floc too quickly so it can be lagered but leaves it malty.

Mashing low is perfect. 90 min mash?


----------



## jayse

Not sure which munich your using, i have ben using around 70% weyerman munich II with pilsner malt generally and that is border line overly malty, you wouldn't want the melanoidin malt on top of that so I'd give that a miss personelly or it just gets to much.
You'd even struggle to pick a nice bitterness even at 60 IBU with the beer as is.


----------



## Effect

I'd agree with dropping or lowering the melanoidin malt...5% for me is a bit too much. As far as the bitterness goes, its hard to tell that they are that bitter. Tried all the stammtischer altbiers at Smurto's place, and even though I knew the recipe, I had to be reminded that they were 50 IBU - so pushing it up to 60 I think wouldn't be bad at all, but I would rather save the hops for another alt than doing it 60 IBU as I doubt, for me at least, that difference between 50 and 60 IBU in this style of beer wouldn't be as noticeable than it would in other styles.


----------



## Steve

Thanks chaps


----------



## jbirbeck

Phillip said:


> I'd agree with dropping or lowering the melanoidin malt...5% for me is a bit too much. As far as the bitterness goes, its hard to tell that they are that bitter. Tried all the stammtischer altbiers at Smurto's place, and even though I knew the recipe, I had to be reminded that they were 50 IBU - so pushing it up to 60 I think wouldn't be bad at all, but I would rather save the hops for another alt than doing it 60 IBU as I doubt, for me at least, that difference between 50 and 60 IBU in this style of beer wouldn't be as noticeable than it would in other styles.



pushing it to 60IBU is about balance...


----------



## Steve

Steve said:


> Planning my first alt for the weekend
> 
> 9kg Grain bill
> 
> Munich 70%
> Pils 24%
> Melanoidin 5%
> Carafa II 1%
> 
> Spalt @ 60mins to 50 IBUs
> Mash low at 64
> 
> Either WLP036, WLP029 or WLP011 (depending on what LHBS has in stock).
> 
> Any thoughts?
> Cheers
> Steve



ok.....LHBS ran out of Munich II so subbed it with Vienna. Heres what I have for a double batch

3kg Munich II
3kg Vienna
2kg Pils
500gms Melanoidin
90gms Carafa II

Is this still in the range of an alt and should I adjust the IBU's from 50 due to using Vienna? Will the Carafa II put me in the colour range of an alt?
Im using WLP029 in one ferm and Nottingham dry in another.

Thoughts?
Cheers
Steve


----------



## drsmurto

Steve said:


> ok.....LHBS ran out of Munich II so subbed it with Vienna. Heres what I have for a double batch
> 
> 3kg Munich II
> 3kg Vienna
> 2kg Pils
> 500gms Melanoidin
> 90gms Carafa II
> 
> Is this still in the range of an alt and should I adjust the IBU's from 50 due to using Vienna? Will the Carafa II put me in the colour range of an alt?
> Im using WLP029 in one ferm and Nottingham dry in another.
> 
> Thoughts?
> Cheers
> Steve



My calcs put that at the very bottom of the colour range (22 EBC vs 21.7 min according to BJCP) and if it was me then the same again of some choc malt should be fine. But my disclaimer is i like most beers at the upper end of the colour range! 

Vienna, to my taste, is every bit as malty as munich so i wouldnt change the IBUs.


----------



## Steve

DrSmurto said:


> My calcs put that at the very bottom of the colour range (22 EBC vs 21.7 min according to BJCP) and if it was me then the same again of some choc malt should be fine. But my disclaimer is i like most beers at the upper end of the colour range!
> 
> Vienna, to my taste, is every bit as malty as munich so i wouldnt change the IBUs.



Just so happens I have a sample baggy of Simpons Choc malt 1100-1250 EBC from LHBS. 100gms of that do? Cheers fella
Steve


----------



## drsmurto

Steve said:


> Just so happens I have a sample baggy of Simpons Choc malt 1100-1250 EBC from LHBS. 100gms of that do? Cheers fella
> Steve



Poifect :icon_cheers:


----------



## manticle

Knocking an alt out tomorrow based on some of newguy's descriptions and suggestions here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...worst+trip+ever (the whole thread is worth a read but he describes traditional dusseldorf alts in a couple of spots)

Essentially for a final 20 L batch:

4.1 pils (JW)
500 wey munich
500 wey vienna
50 carafa II
50 JW choc

55 tett @ 60
20g tett @ 20
10g tett cube hop.

Protein rest at 55, mash at 63 for 40 mins, ramp to 68 for 20 minutes, mash out, batch sparge.

2g each CaSO4 and CaCl2 to mash and boil.

WY 1007 at 16/17 degrees.

A few oak chips in secondary

Should be around 44 IBU and 1050ish OG at 70% efficiency. Goes against the grain (ha grain ha) of single bittering addition but newguy reckons there's definite flavour hopping and some low aroma in all the varieties he tried.


----------



## drew9242

I'm doing a altbier on monday aswell. Mainly because i tried the altbier from ducksteins and was very impressed. And i have heap of munich to gt rid off.

My goes as follows.

Munich 2 = 93%
Caramunich = 4%
Melanoidin = 2%
Chocolate = 1%

70g Tett at 60min
30g Tett at 45min

Mash at 66 for 60min

Got no German ale yeast, so was going to chuck 1056 in.


----------



## Williams

All Grain Recipe 

Grain Bill

6 lbs. - 2 Row Pale Malt
2 lbs. - Munich Malt
1 lb. - Vienna Malt
1 lb. - Wheat Malt
1 lb. - Crystal Malt (80L)

Hop Schedule (44 IBU)

1.5 oz - Hallertau hops (60 min.)
1 oz - Hallertau hops (30 min.)
1 oz - Hallertau hops (10 min.)
Yeast

White Labs European Ale Yeast (WLP011) - 1800 ml starter
Mash/Sparge/Boil

Mash at 152 to 154 for 60 min.
Sparge as usual
Boil for a total of 90 Minutes
Cool and ferment at 65 to 70


----------



## jbirbeck

manticle said:


> Knocking an alt out tomorrow based on some of newguy's descriptions and suggestions here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...worst+trip+ever (the whole thread is worth a read but he describes traditional dusseldorf alts in a couple of spots)
> 
> Essentially for a final 20 L batch:
> 
> 4.1 pils (JW)
> 500 wey munich
> 500 wey vienna
> 50 carafa II
> 50 JW choc
> 
> 55 tett @ 60
> 20g tett @ 20
> 10g tett cube hop.
> 
> Protein rest at 55, mash at 63 for 40 mins, ramp to 68 for 20 minutes, mash out, batch sparge.
> 
> 2g each CaSO4 and CaCl2 to mash and boil.
> 
> WY 1007 at 16/17 degrees.
> 
> A few oak chips in secondary
> 
> Should be around 44 IBU and 1050ish OG at 70% efficiency. Goes against the grain (ha grain ha) of single bittering addition but newguy reckons there's definite flavour hopping and some low aroma in all the varieties he tried.




probably a touch late but I would have said ferment sub 16 if you want less 1007 esters. I'm not a fan of them myself and they really go nuts even at 17.

FHW for the flavour an aroma...


----------



## manticle

I might knock it down to around 14. Temp control for me is a water bath and ice bricks.

Still in the cube so not too late but definitely too late for FWH


----------



## jayse

manticle said:


> Knocking an alt out tomorrow based on some of newguy's descriptions and suggestions here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...worst+trip+ever (the whole thread is worth a read but he describes traditional dusseldorf alts in a couple of spots)



Excellent insights from newguy, that was cool. Today I brewed 55 litres of alt and for the most part it was how I normally would do it but on reading this the other day decided I would do a 1g/L hop addition at 20mins also, as well as the low mash temp I stretched it out to 90mins.
It was a whooping 300g 60min addition, I have found them pretty hard to over do the 60min additions and 60 IBU can often still not come up quite as bitter as you would like, newguy stated they had quite a lot of hop flavour aswell as the bitterness so it seemed to me a good idea to give one a crack with a decent 20min addition.
Malt bill was 70/30 wey munich II and JWM ex pils, about 1.2% jwm choc.
I went with all tettnanger rather then spalt as that is what I had.
European ale yeast.

Can't wait
Cheers
Jayse


----------



## manticle

The above recipe is drinking particularly nicely at the moment. The oak really adds something (home toasted french oak for flavour and pasteurisation). I'm surprised there isn't more tett flavour as even with single bittering additions I get discernible tettnanger flavour but the recipe is definitely a keeper and tweaker. Nice caramel and toffee undertones, dry finish and subtle lingering bitterness.

Just bought the classic beer series book on altbier although nothing will beat actually going to dusseldorf some time and tasting them for myself.


----------



## jimi

I think the ALT would have to take the prize for the most diverse - even all the brew gurus tend to have a different take on this beer. 
JZ advocates 60% pils, 15% MunII, 15% Vienna, 5-6% Cryst etc
Jayse & tdh (the guru of all things german - including Rammstien) recommend the reverse ratio of Munich to Pils ala 60% Munich 40% Pils - tdh feels crystal is out of place in a ALT
Ross considers it one of his most successful beers (comp wise) and he's for crystal.
Peoples ideas of balancing the malt to bitterness also varies hugely ..

Anywho I could go on about the diversity of thinking for this style but I'd rather just throw down my ideas and see if someone out there couldn't offer some suggestions. I've only done one ALT previously which came out too heavy and not sessional enough for what I was wanting. Plans are ...

41% PILS
33% MunII
22% Vienna
3% Cararoma
1% Roast Wheat (my pseduo dark cara)

OG 1050 
2565 (Kolsch yeast) 
NBrewer (yank version) & Hallertaur to IBU 36. NB @ 60 Hal at 30min

So there it is folks - a bit of a hybrid of all the different approaches I've read about - what do you reckon???
This is a brew style I'd really like to nail


----------



## jimi

jimi said:


> I think the ALT would have to take the prize for the most diverse - even all the brew gurus tend to have a different take on this beer.
> JZ advocates 60% pils, 15% MunII, 15% Vienna, 5-6% Cryst etc
> Jayse & tdh (the guru of all things german - including Rammstien) recommend the reverse ratio of Munich to Pils ala 60% Munich 40% Pils - tdh feels crystal is out of place in a ALT
> Ross considers it one of his most successful beers (comp wise) and he's for crystal.
> Peoples ideas of balancing the malt to bitterness also varies hugely ..
> 
> Anywho I could go on about the diversity of thinking for this style but I'd rather just throw down my ideas and see if someone out there couldn't offer some suggestions. I've only done one ALT previously which came out too heavy and not sessional enough for what I was wanting. Plans are ...
> 
> 41% PILS
> 33% MunII
> 22% Vienna
> 3% Cararoma
> 1% Roast Wheat (my pseduo dark cara)
> 
> OG 1050
> 2565 (Kolsch yeast)
> NBrewer (yank version) & Hallertaur to IBU 36. NB @ 60 Hal at 30min
> 
> So there it is folks - a bit of a hybrid of all the different approaches I've read about - what do you reckon???
> This is a brew style I'd really like to nail



A bump for the night crowd - I might put this down tomorrow, so I'm keen for the thoughts of others


----------



## raven19

Into the cube tonight, my second Alt.

Mashed at 64.5, and finished with a decoction to add a bit more colour.

The 100 gms of hops soaked up more wort than I anticipated though!

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 32.88 L
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 25.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 44.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.05 kg Munich (17.7 EBC) Grain 33.33 % 
2.05 kg Munich Malt - 20L (39.4 EBC) Grain 33.33 % 
2.05 kg Pilsner (4.0 EBC) Grain 33.33 % 
95.00 gm Spalter (2010) [4.10 %] (90 min) Hops 44.5 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
23.00 L 1 Parkside (SA Water - Hope Valley) Water 
1 Pkgs Dusseldorf Alt Yeast (White Labs #WLP036) Yeast-Ale


----------



## A3k

Hey guys,
How does this recipe sound? From what Ive been reading, it seems pretty good, but just want to make sure.

Recipe: Al's Alt
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 50.00 L 
Boil Size: 60.64 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 25.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 43.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.33 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 32.68 % 
3.33 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 32.68 % 
3.33 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) 32.68 % 
0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) 1.96 % 
154.81 gm Spalter [5.80 %] (60 min) 43.5 IBU 
2 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale 


I was looking at the recipe posted by Raven, but when I put it into beersmith, the colour was much lower. Hence the Carafa Special.

Is the bitterness ratio okay, or should I push it up closer to 1:1?

I was in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago and loved the beers. Hopefully it comes close to Uerige.

I dont think Im gonna put late hops in, as I didnt really detect much in Uerige.

Thoughts?

Cheers
Al


----------



## raven19

A3k said:


> I was looking at the recipe posted by Raven, but when I put it into beersmith, the colour was much lower. Hence the Carafa Special.



My Beersmith colour numbers are sometimes all over the shop, old grains with incorrect EBC values - so apologies if my colour numbers throw things a bit. I previously has SRM not EBC as the colour type in BS, but typed the OTHER one in accidentally...

Recipe looks the goods, decoction will also give you some colour if you prefer to go that way.

Grain bill and OG:BU looks good too.

Mash Temp?

I think the single hop addition works well as per your recipe also.


----------



## A3k

Cheers Raven,
I might do a decoction to get to mash out. May as well hey!
Im thinking Ill do a 65C infusion Mash to keep it pretty dry.

As for the colour, beersmith seems a little weird when it comes to colour and efficiency.
Beersmith doesnt change the colour of a beer when you change the efficiency.

So if I get higher efficiency, then Ill end up with a stronger beer, but the colour will stay the same.
If I then reduce the malt to compensate, beersmith shows it much lighter in colour.

This may be correct, Im not sure. I guess it depends on what is causing the difference in efficiency.
If it is caused by poor conversion, then I reckon Id agree with Beersmith (ie efficiency doesnt change colour). BUT I reckon its more likely to be due to how efficiently one can extract the goods out of the grain, and I would think that this would also extract more colour.

I did just check your munich colours compared to mine, and they were different too. I need to change mine to match Beerbelly.
[EDIT] just changed and didn't make heaps of difference

Cheers,


----------



## eamonnfoley

A3k said:


> Hey guys,
> How does this recipe sound? From what I've been reading, it seems pretty good, but just want to make sure.
> 
> Recipe: Al's Alt
> Brewer: Al
> Asst Brewer:
> Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
> TYPE: All Grain
> Taste: (35.0)
> 
> Recipe Specifications
> --------------------------
> Batch Size: 50.00 L
> Boil Size: 60.64 L
> Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
> Estimated Color: 25.6 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 43.5 IBU
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
> Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 3.33 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 32.68 %
> 3.33 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 32.68 %
> 3.33 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) 32.68 %
> 0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) 1.96 %
> 154.81 gm Spalter [5.80 %] (60 min) 43.5 IBU
> 2 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale
> 
> 
> I was looking at the recipe posted by Raven, but when I put it into beersmith, the colour was much lower. Hence the Carafa Special.
> 
> Is the bitterness ratio okay, or should I push it up closer to 1:1?
> 
> I was in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago and loved the beers. Hopefully it comes close to Uerige.
> 
> I don't think I'm gonna put late hops in, as I didn't really detect much in Uerige.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Cheers
> Al



If you want to get close to Zum Uerige - you definitely need to late hop (for flavour more than aroma).... There is a big raw spalt hop flavour in that beer. I was there in Sept, my favourite beer in the world. If you want Zum Schlussel, you need to hop more for aroma than flavour (its a more delicate hop character).

The straight 60min addition might get you closer to a Fuchschen or Schumacher.


----------



## jbirbeck

recipe looks the duck's nuts. I like to push the IBU to 50 or even 55 and I'd mash 63/64. I wouldn't late hop but you could use some of your Spalt (maybe a third) as a FWH for some nice subtle flavours there.

I'd ferment on the lower end of the scale too to limit the yeast esters to a subtle range but I don't like 1007 as much as the kolsch yeasts. Also on a side by side tasting a while ago with teh Stamm challenge it was the beer fermented at 13 rather than 16 than won the day.

Love an Alt, must do another.


----------



## drsmurto

Looks like a nice grist A3K although i agree with RK in that upping the IBU to 50 would work better. All that munich will handle the extra bitterness with ease.

I currently have an Alt on tap with some late Spalt and it's devine. The subtle spiciness works so well in this style. :icon_drool2:


----------



## A3k

Cheers fellas,

Does the Carafa Special II addition seem like too much? 

As for ferment, 14-15C seem okay? I dont think I have any of the kolsch yeast on hand anymore, so will go the 1007 for this one. 

Im a bit torn at the moment about the late flavour hops. I reckon Ill try just the 60min addition for the first attempt, but will FWH it.
I reckon Im going to start making this regularly, so will start playing around with it. This was my favourite style I tried in Germany.

Will conform, and up the hopping to 50IBU

Honestly, I didnt love the hop nose on Zum Schlussel, nice beer, but the aroma made it seem a bit generic. I did go straight from Uerige to Schlussel though, so I may not have got the best out of the Zum Schlussel.
I brought a Schlussel back with me, so will crack it once Ive made mine.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## drsmurto

A3k said:


> Cheers fellas,
> 
> Does the Carafa Special II addition seem like too much?
> 
> As for ferment, 14-15C seem okay? I dont think I have any of the kolsch yeast on hand anymore, so will go the 1007 for this one.
> 
> Im a bit torn at the moment about the late flavour hops. I reckon Ill try just the 60min addition for the first attempt, but will FWH it.
> I reckon Im going to start making this regularly, so will start playing around with it. This was my favourite style I tried in Germany.
> 
> Will conform, and up the hopping to 50IBU
> 
> Honestly, I didnt love the hop nose on Zum Schlussel, nice beer, but the aroma made it seem a bit generic. I did go straight from Uerige to Schlussel though, so I may not have got the best out of the Zum Schlussel.
> I brought a Schlussel back with me, so will crack it once Ive made mine.
> 
> Cheers,
> Al



2% carafa seems normal to me, it's really only there for colour adjustment and to (perhaps) lend a slighlty drier finish.

The Stammtisch Alt is a regular at my place. More often that not i use only a single bittering addition of Spalt to 50 IBU. I've used tettnang as a flavour/aroma hop before and liked it. 

WY1007 fermented at 14-15C works well in my opinion - dont forget to lager this for as long as you can.


----------



## A3k

DrSmurto said:


> dont forget to lager this for as long as you can.




Bloody lagering. My least favourite step (after cleaning up).

Maybe i should make a bigger batch and leave half of it for a few months.


----------



## A3k

OK, last question:
I'm planning on using Rain Water. Any tips on desired water profile / salt additions i should be using?

Thanks.
Al


----------



## eamonnfoley

A3k said:


> OK, last question:
> I'm planning on using Rain Water. Any tips on desired water profile / salt additions i should be using?
> 
> Thanks.
> Al



I shoot for a balanced CL/SO4 ratio, or just balanced towards Cl, and at least 50ppm of Ca. Braukaiser has some information on his website.


----------



## stl

DrSmurto said:


> WY1007 fermented at 14-15C works well in my opinion - dont forget to lager this for as long as you can.



Works well? Big understatement in my book, I love that stuff...

..and when you're done, might I suggest you try something like this recipe (only I wouldn't call it a Helles).


----------



## drsmurto

A3k said:


> OK, last question:
> I'm planning on using Rain Water. Any tips on desired water profile / salt additions i should be using?
> 
> Thanks.
> Al



I use rainwater for all my beers and as Foles mentions, a balanced Cl/SO4 ratio is good for malt driven beers.

For 35L i use 6g each of CaSO4 and CaCl2 giving Ca 87, SO4 96, Cl 82 ppm (based on distilled water as a base)


----------



## A3k

Alright,
Ive finally made this one, but its in the fermenter at 14 and going strong.

Unfortunately I forgot to put the salt additions in for the mash. Remembered during the boil, so added it then. Hopefully there are no adverse effects, I still got over 80% so cant be too bad.

One question I have though is why the need for such a long lagering period.
Is it for:
a) clarity, 
B) to clean up the yeast
c) or to rounding the flavours

if its just for 
a) I can filter. (still lager a few weeks anyway)
B) Im a little confused due to this statement on the wyeast site (Beers mature rapidly, even when cold fermentation is used. Low or no detectable diacetyl.)
c) no thats cool, Ill lager it no worries. 

Cheers,
Al


----------



## raven19

I brewed my Fourth version a few days ago and pitched the yeast on Sunday, but used wlp036 yeast cake from DrS. Mine is sitting at 18deg.

If brewing to spec, BJCP calls for 'brilliant clarity', then lagered to produce a 'cleaner, smoother pallete' compared to most ales.

I tend to crash chill for as long as I can hold out for, then filter, then keg. Then sample over the ensuing weeks and enjoy the improvement of the beer over time.


----------



## drsmurto

A3k said:


> Alright,
> Ive finally made this one, but its in the fermenter at 14 and going strong.
> 
> Unfortunately I forgot to put the salt additions in for the mash. Remembered during the boil, so added it then. Hopefully there are no adverse effects, I still got over 80% so cant be too bad.
> 
> One question I have though is why the need for such a long lagering period.
> Is it for:
> a) clarity,
> B) to clean up the yeast
> c) or to rounding the flavours
> 
> if its just for
> a) I can filter. (still lager a few weeks anyway)
> B) Im a little confused due to this statement on the wyeast site (Beers mature rapidly, even when cold fermentation is used. Low or no detectable diacetyl.)
> c) no thats cool, Ill lager it no worries.
> 
> Cheers,
> Al



A, B and C.

A filter will do A and B.

C, in my opinion and based largely on wine making science, requires yeast contact and filtering removes so much of the yeast that this step is vastly slowed down. 

I sold my filter recently as i spend more time conditioning my beers through extended cold conditioning/lagering. To my taste this has improved my beers. A 'fresh' beer to me tastes raw and unbalanced. Too many flavours competing with each other.


----------



## Midnight Brew

Going for this on Tuesday with what I have on hand.

54% Pilsner JW
40% Munich I JW
4% Crystal JW
2% Carafa Special II
Hallertau FWH to 45-50 IBU

Mash/Time
55/66/76
5/60/10

OG 1048
Wy Kolsch 2565

Thinking about switching to the Kolsch strain for a few beers I have planned while its winter.


----------



## Bribie G

Looks the go, rather than the Kolsch have you considered the German Ale yeast? Wy1007 or the K-97 dried yeast from CraftBrewer? or is it too late?

I did a spectacular Alt last year on 1007 although it tasted like shyte until it had been lagered for a couple of months then lurverly, I've got some K-97 in and will have a crack at another one as part of the Comp rounds this year.


----------



## Midnight Brew

Bribie G said:


> Looks the go, rather than the Kolsch have you considered the German Ale yeast? Wy1007 or the K-97 dried yeast from CraftBrewer? or is it too late?
> 
> I did a spectacular Alt last year on 1007 although it tasted like shyte until it had been lagered for a couple of months then lurverly, I've got some K-97 in and will have a crack at another one as part of the Comp rounds this year.




I'll give that a go when I put in my next order. Beauty of it is Im no chilling and its a double batch so more then likely the second cube will be on a different yeast. Ive had the Kolsch yeast since xmas so its overdue for a good use and will follow it up with a fake pils. Going more for the kolsch strain so it conditions quick, also may throw some of this yeast onto a citra apa I made as an experiment. Seems like a nice strain for the winter months of melbourne


----------



## Nicko_Cairns

Hi guys, 

I'm fairly new to brewing, so if my question doesn't make sense that's why! 

Some guys talked about adding oak chips at secondary, how do you prepare the chips and how much do you add? Do you just sanitize them first?

Secondly, with crash chilling how cold and how long? I'll have a search around the forum for crash chilling as I'd like to try it. 

Thanks,

Nicko.


----------



## DJR

Nicko_Cairns said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm fairly new to brewing, so if my question doesn't make sense that's why!
> 
> Some guys talked about adding oak chips at secondary, how do you prepare the chips and how much do you add? Do you just sanitize them first?
> 
> Secondly, with crash chilling how cold and how long? I'll have a search around the forum for crash chilling as I'd like to try it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nicko.



I am not sure you'd want to oak an Altbier, but usually people using oak sanitise them by soaking in some spirit first for a day or two.

Crash chilling, 4C or below, put the fermenter in the fridge basically, faster the temperature drop the better usually once the beer has finished fermenting to drop the yeast out of suspension. But sometimes there is a need to cool it down slowly such as in lagers where you might want the yeast to remain in suspension to clean up quicker. It's a complicated topic and there is no one answer


----------



## manticle

I know oaking has been discussed previously because some altbiers are served in germany from wooden barrels. I think it was discussion with NewGuy after his trip to Germany that led me to trying it.

However the one time I tried it, I ended up with a brett infection. Oak chips are hard to sanitise thoroughly. Normally I toast mine but I also normally oak bretty, funky beers.

If I were to do it again, I might soak in starsan first, then soak in boiling water, then toast.

However I would make one without oak first and see if you think it would benefit from oak. My current one has plenty of flavour without.

As for chilling - I whack mine straight in the fridge and leave for 3 weeks minimum. That's using wyeast 1007, primary fermented at 14 degrees and given a small diacetyl rest at 18 before the cold conditioning phase.


----------



## Phoney

Santizing oak chips is easy, just steam them for 10 - 15 mins.


----------



## Nicko_Cairns

okay thanks gents, some good info.


----------



## Nicko_Cairns

manticle said:


> I know oaking has been discussed previously because some altbiers are served in germany from wooden barrels. I think it was discussion with NewGuy after his trip to Germany that led me to trying it.
> 
> However the one time I tried it, I ended up with a brett infection. Oak chips are hard to sanitise thoroughly. Normally I toast mine but I also normally oak bretty, funky beers.
> 
> If I were to do it again, I might soak in starsan first, then soak in boiling water, then toast.
> 
> However I would make one without oak first and see if you think it would benefit from oak. My current one has plenty of flavour without.
> 
> As for chilling - I whack mine straight in the fridge and leave for 3 weeks minimum. That's using wyeast 1007, primary fermented at 14 degrees and given a small diacetyl rest at 18 before the cold conditioning phase.



so Manticle, three weeks fermenting of two weeks with a week of cold conditioning? thanks.


----------



## manticle

I'm always wary of talking about fermentation in terms of time (conditioning is different). 

So ferment until you hit FG, then a week at ale temps (conditioning/diacetyl rest etc), then a week in the cold for most ales. However I give my alts and lagers 3 weeks minimum in the cold (so that's after fermentation has finished).

That's my regime anyway.


----------



## Nicko_Cairns

manticle said:


> I'm always wary of talking about fermentation in terms of time (conditioning is different).
> 
> So ferment until you hit FG, then a week at ale temps (conditioning/diacetyl rest etc), then a week in the cold for most ales. However I give my alts and lagers 3 weeks minimum in the cold (so that's after fermentation has finished).
> 
> That's my regime anyway.



thanks, and then gas them up and serve, or is there additional lagering time?


----------



## manticle

I bottle. Mine are ready to go once carbed but good changes will occur in the bottle given extra time and cold once carbed.


----------



## JDW81

Is there a reason, other than clarity you would cold condition an alt? I only ask as I love the style, but don't have a fridge for cold conditioning?

Would it be a bad idea to brew one without an extensive cold conditioning phase?


----------



## manticle

Melbourne weather is nice and cool so outside on a concrete floor would probably be like a decent cellar temp.

I cc everything for maturation more than clarity - suspended yeast tastes like suspended yeast and there's other crap that drops out too.

There is a historical precedent for lagering/cold conditioning an alt too and I'm a sucker for history.


----------



## newguy

manticle said:


> I know oaking has been discussed previously because some altbiers are served in germany from wooden barrels. I think it was discussion with NewGuy after his trip to Germany that led me to trying it.
> 
> However the one time I tried it, I ended up with a brett infection. Oak chips are hard to sanitise thoroughly. Normally I toast mine but I also normally oak bretty, funky beers.
> 
> If I were to do it again, I might soak in starsan first, then soak in boiling water, then toast.



Yes that was me. Another method of sanitising oak chips is to steam them. I've done it a couple times and I know a few others that have as well. No infection issues as long as the chips are relatively thin and you steam them for at least 5 minutes.


----------



## Nicko_Cairns

manticle said:


> I bottle. Mine are ready to go once carbed but good changes will occur in the bottle given extra time and cold once carbed.



Okay thanks mate.


----------



## HoochHB

Batz said:


> There is never a time that an Altbier is not on tap at Batz bar,one of my favorites for sure.
> It's an easy beer to brew,that maybe because I brew it so often and don't mess with the recipe anymore
> 
> Batz


Hey Batz this post is from years ago..Do you still do your altbier?


----------



## bradsbrew

Batz, mind sharing your Alt recipe?

Edit: its in the Recipe DB but not accessable at the moment.


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## stakka82

Bump


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## warra48

This one's about to come to the boil.

*Düsseldorf Alt*


2700.0 g Pale Malt, Ale (IMC) (3.9 EBC) Grain 3 53.5 %
2200.0 g Munich, Light (Joe White) (21.0 EBC) Grain 4 43.6 %
100.0 g Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 5 2.0 % 50.0 g Chocolate Wheat (Weyermann) (817.5 EBC) Grain 6 1.0 %
60.0 g Smaragd [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 49.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029) Yeast slurry from starter culture

Mashed 64ºC for 90 minutes.
Collected 35 litres at 1.039 SG pre-boil.
Should have about 25 litres into the fermenter post 90 minutes boil.

Edit: Damn, another hydrometer busted. That's it, I'm getting a thingymajig, so I only need a few drops. Oh, it's a refractometer.


----------



## manticle

Altbier

Type: All grain Size: 22 liters
Color: 22 HCU (~12 SRM) 
Bitterness: 45 IBU
OG: 1.052 
FG: 1.012
Alcohol: 5.2% v/v (4.1% w/w)
Grain: 2.5kg Weyerman Pilsner
1.25kg Weyerman Vienna
1.25kg Weyerman Munich
200g Briess victory
75g Simpsons chocolate
Mash: 70% efficiency
TEMP: 55/62/67/72/78
TIME: 5/10/50/10/10

Decoct at 62 and add back to reach 72
Decoct at 67 and add back to reach 78

Boil: 90minutes, SG 1.036, 32 liters
Hops:25g Spalt (5.7% AA, 60 min.)
25g Tettnanger (3.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Spalt (5.7% AA, 20 min.)
20g Tettnanger (3.5% AA, 20 min.)
10g Spalt (aroma)
10g Tettnanger (aroma)

2g CaCl2 and 2g CaSO4 + phosphoric acid as required for mash pH
2g CaCl2 and CaSO4 to boil.

WYEAST 1007

While I've never tried an alt in Germany, I love brewing it. This one won both bitter ale (entered as a dusseldorf) and amber/dark lager (entered as a North German) at last year's Vicbrew. Its earier incarnation won amber/dark the year before. Comps aside, I just reckon it tastes fantastic and should be knocking another one out in a few weeks.


----------



## Tilt

manticle said:


> Altbier
> 
> 
> TEMP: 55/62/67/72/78
> TIME: 5/10/50/10/10
> 
> Decoct at 62 and add back to reach 72
> Decoct at 67 and add back to reach 78


This looks a ripper recipe Manticle. Can you expand on your process with your mash temp steps?
How are you raising temps in between the decoction steps?
Cheers


----------



## manticle

I step mash with a grimwood element - I just keep it submerged and stir constantly. Integral part of my brewing equipment but you could infusion mash - just need to get the calcs right or if you BIAB, you can blast with whatever heat source you use to boil.


----------



## Tilt

Thanks - I've got one of the Grimwoods OTS elements and keen to learn more about using it to full effect.
So if I read it right are these your steps?


Strike/ Infusion for a 55 rest (whats your usual liquor to grist ratio?)
Raise to 62 with the OTS element
Draw off a portion to decoct (what volume for your usual sized mash?)
Raise the main mash to 67 with the OTS element and rest for 50
Heat the first decoction portion and add back to bring to 72
Draw off another decoction portion
Heat this portion during the 10min 72 rest
Add second decoction back to raise to 78 for MO

Edit: typo


----------



## manticle

tilt said:


> Thanks - I've got one of the Grimwoods OTS elements and keen to learn more about using it to full effect.
> So if I read it right are these your steps?
> 
> 
> Strike/ Infusion for a 55 rest (whats your usual liquor to grist ratio?)
> 2.5 kg per L
> 
> Raise to 62 with the OTS element
> Rest for 10-15 mins
> 
> Draw off a portion to decoct (what volume for your usual sized mash?)
> Roughly a third, mainly grain with just enough liquid to stop it sticking. Bring to the boil slowly, then boil reasonably hard, stirring occasionally
> 
> Raise the main mash to 67 with the OTS element and rest for 50
> Heat the first decoction portion and add back to bring to 72
> Add slowly and reserve any remainder that is unnecessary if temps hit. use Element to hit temp if you fall short.
> 
> Draw off another decoction portion
> Slightly thinner/more liquid
> 
> Heat this portion during the 10min 72 rest
> Add second decoction back to raise to 78 for MO
> Done.
> 
> The element makes not stressing about temp steps really easy so decoction is mainly for flavour. Need to stir with the element - grain can ocassionally stick and burn but mostly in my experience, if there is enough liquid in the tun, you look after the mash while raising and you dunk it in some clean water between steps, there should be very little, if any at all.


----------



## Tilt

Fantastic- thanks for the detail. 
I've just started more complex stepped temp mashes (beyond single infusion rest, infusion mash out) with a protein rest as a result of getting the element.
Enjoying a robust porter with luscious mouthfeel, good attenuation, persistent foam and glorious lacing which I have to put down to more attention and effort during the mash (having not changed anything else in my process).
I had an underwhelming first crack at an Alt last year so keen to give it the stepped/ decocted treatment to see what I can come up with.


----------



## Spiesy

Trying my first Dusseldorf Alt this weekend...

Based on 'Brewing Classic Styles' I'm looking at:

69% Wey Pils
16% Wey Munich I
8% Ding Aromatic
4% Wey CaraMunich II
1.6% Wey Carafa II
1.6% CaraPils
1049 OG BIAB NC - mash @ 65.

Now, I don't have Spalt or Tettnanger... I do have Hallertauer Mittlefruh, so was looking at:

33.2IBU @ 60mins (that's 80g ffs!)
3.1IBU @ 15mins
36.2IBU (not factoring for no chill, prob won't differ too much as the bulk of IBU's are at 60)

1007.

Thoughts?

PS: I don't have any more Munich on me, but I do have more CaraMunich II, Ale, Maris Otter, and medium Crystal.
The only other noble hops I have are EKG, Fuggles and tiny amount of Styrian - shitload of US hops.


----------



## manticle

i'd up the ibu a tad. Hallertau will be fine and styrians work also. Not sure if you need carapils although I'm never sure if anyone needs carapils. Don't know about caramunich either but I think the aromatic will provide good malt toastiness. Have you got more munich I? I'd be looking at 25 -50% of the base coming from that.


----------



## Spiesy

Spiesy said:


> PS: I don't have any more Munich on me


No more Munich.

Thanks for the feedback, Manticle.

Only using CaraPils to add a little body and help with head, as I BIAB. It's only a dash really, 100g.


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## manticle

Mash temp for dextrinous mash should give you that.
62 for 15, 68 for 40, 72 for 10.


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## Spiesy

Step mashing ain't that easy for BIAB. I know infusions are possible (although this is new to me), and some people add heat and stir, but a little carapils or wheat should do the job as well, yeah?


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## manticle

Probably. I don't like shortcuts but that's my issue.

Many biabers have easy access to stepping by brewing in an urn or on a stove or burner. For alt, I like to decoct which gives another avenue for stepping too.
not difficult to do at all.


----------



## Spiesy

Brewing up now... accidentally dropped the 60min addition in at 90!

80g of hops in one hit sure does foam up!

Won't make too much of a difference, I guess; I just scaled back and moved forward the 15g @ 15mins to 6g @ 10mins to compensate.

Looking forward to drinking this badboy. :beerbang:


----------



## pat86

I'm going to have to come back and read this whole thread and the other Alt recipes here! My favourite beer hands-down although I've never seen any outside of Dusseldorf.

Within Dusseldorf we did a bit of a crawl and sampled at least 3-5 of the breweries - my favourite by far was Schumachers and it isn't just because I drank 8 before moving on to the next! Pity we weren't around at the right time to try the special seasonal Alt's although the regular was basically the best thing I have ever drunk in my life. 

On my last trip to Germany back 5 years ago, Kolsch became my favourite style (though I kind of dislike 4 pines version... anyone else?) but started getting into dark beers in general and I was pretty much sold after a few days in Dusseldorf. Double whammy since Koln and Ddorf absolutely hate each other.  

If anyone has recently come up with a good Kits & Bits recipe for getting close to an alt I would love to know, as it might be quite a while before I get to AG?


----------



## Weizguy

> I'm going to have to come back and read this whole thread and the other Alt recipes here! My favourite beer hands-down although I've never seen any outside of Dusseldorf.
> 
> Within Dusseldorf we did a bit of a crawl and sampled at least 3-5 of the breweries - my favourite by far was Schumachers and it isn't just because I drank 8 before moving on to the next! Pity we weren't around at the right time to try the special seasonal Alt's although the regular was basically the best thing I have ever drunk in my life.
> 
> On my last trip to Germany back 5 years ago, Kolsch became my favourite style (though I kind of dislike 4 pines version... anyone else?) but started getting into dark beers in general and I was pretty much sold after a few days in Dusseldorf. Double whammy since Koln and Ddorf absolutely hate each other.
> 
> If anyone has recently come up with a good Kits & Bits recipe for getting close to an alt I would love to know, as it might be quite a while before I get to AG?


Have you seen the Weyermann 4kg malt extract cans? Weyermann Munich Amber is your start point and just follow Batz's Altbier recipe, as he has plenty of good reviews


----------



## Weizguy

Brewing this soon (one or two weeks):

UERIGE ALTered (based on the Wheeler recipe)

46 litre batch predicted o.g. ~ 1.050
Est alc - 5.2%

2.086 kg MEU (Aus) Pilsner
6.27 kg Munich I (Weyermann)
1.1 kg Abbey malt (Weyermann) at MHB's suggestion
0.250 kg Caraaroma



Saaz (Bittering) (T45) 120g @ 90 min to 47 IBU
Saaz plugs (Flavour) 28g @ 10 min to ~1.7 IBU

Brewbrite (5 doses) at 10 min before end of boil
Wyeast 1007 - 5 litre starter


----------



## pat86

Hey Les, how'd this one go?

I haven't used aromatic malt before have you tasted the results yet or is it still too early?


----------



## Weizguy

Sorry, not brewed yet.
Might have to wait until I get the new esky/chiller-mash tun and manifold sorted.

Have a suspicion this could exceed the limits of my current mash tun.

Maybe this weekend or the next. Need to get some session beer back on tap at the Teninch Brewery.

(*edit) Will need to freshen up the W1007 starter too, as it's been sitting too long now


----------



## Weizguy

pat86 said:


> Hey Les, how'd this one go?
> 
> I haven't used aromatic malt before have you tasted the results yet or is it still too early?


Still too early. Brewed on 29/5 and no-chilled in the SS fermentor, Then chilled to 13°C in the fridge and pitched with the 5 litre starter on 4/6.
6 days later - 5.2% alc/vol and almost 80% apparent attenuation. The yeast has still not cleared below the sample port, but I will chill to 0°C (already there, and drop/run off the excess yeast, if it's not compacted.

FWIW, my brew process has improved since the recipe was entered in Beersmith and I got closer to 60 litres of wort than 46.
Gonna be some Alt drinking this year. May be some spare for comps if the colour is right. Still need to make some other haus beers to.
Edit : spelling pedantry and formatting only, on this occasion.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Bringing back the Alt! I like it!


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## manticle

A self confessed euromalt snob here but my last was brewed with pils, vienna and munich from Gladfields and was excellent. Possibly my favourite everday kind of beer. Hope to knock another one out next weekend.


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## Weizguy

Just tasting a couple of litres of this Alt tonight. Has lagered well , and the fruitiness is coming out, along with maltiness. The bitterness is becoming less broad and a lot cleaner. I'm starting to like this style. Shame I only have about 25 litres left in an old Becks keg.
Time to get back to my beer.


----------



## Droopy Brew

So Im giving an Alt a go tomorrow. I have read through most of this thread to get some ideas and have come up with the following. Would appreciate feedback on the grist, the yeast and mash schedule -am looking to do single infusion at 65C but open to hearing what a step schedule might bring to the table. As much fun as trip decocts are, Im on a time limit with this one so melanoidin is chucked in as a sub.





Alt Bier 1

Method: *All Grain* 
Style: *Altbier *
Boil Time: *60 min* 
Batch Size: *50 liters *[SIZE=.9em](fermentor volume) [/SIZE]
Boil Size: *66 liters *
Boil Gravity: *1.039* [SIZE=.9em](recipe based estimate) [/SIZE]
Efficiency: *75% *[SIZE=.9em](brew house) [/SIZE]
Source: *Cam* ​






Original Gravity:
1.052

Final Gravity:
1.011

ABV (standard):
5.43%

IBU (tinseth):
45.18

SRM (morey):
13.88












Fermentables

Amount

Fermentable

PPG

°L

Bill %

6 kg

German - Munich Light

37

6

53.6%

3 kg

German - Pilsner

38

1.6

26.8%

1 kg

German - Vienna

37

4

8.9%

1 kg

German - Melanoidin

37

25

8.9%

0.2 kg

German - Carafa II

32

425

1.8%

*11.2 kg*

*Total*








Hops

Amount

Variety

Type

AA

Use

Time

IBU

180 g

Perle

Pellet

4.5

Boil

60 min

45.18


Hops Summary

Amount

Variety

Type

AA

180 g

Perle

Pellet

4.5



Mash Guidelines

Amount

Description

Type

Temp

Time

30.6 L

Mashin

Temperature

65 C

60 min

--

Mashout

Temperature

78 C

10 min

Starting Mash Thickness: 3 L/kg


Yeast

Danstar - Nottingham Ale Yeast



Attenuation (avg):


77%

Flocculation:


High

Optimum Temp:


13.9 - 21.1 °C

Starter:


No

Fermentation Temp:


15 °C

Pitch Rate:


-


----------



## Bribie G

Whoah on that melanoidin. I wouldn't put more than about 300g in there. Sub Vienna for the other 700g.

Interesting that the thread has been revived, I've just bought a couple of sacks of Wey and was thinking of doing one to lager over the Xmas period.

Telepathic.


----------



## manticle

Yeast is a key factor in a good alt flavour - not sure nottingham will cut it.

There is a dry german ale yeast - k97 I think. I've not tried it as I'm a liquid man but that's where I would head.


----------



## warra48

Having just started drinking my latest batch of Alt, I'd ease up somewhat on the Munich and up the Pils a bit. Also, you won't need that much Carafa, I'd go no more than 100 gr tops in your batch size, and personally I'd cut it down to 50 gr. You'll have more than enough colour from the Munich anyway.
Yeast is a key factor, use the appropriate liquid Alt yeast if you can get it, and ferment coolish around 15ºC.


----------



## jimi

If it's your first alt I recommend going simple. What I have fermenting ATM is almost 100% Munich (just a touch of roast wheat for colour) to a OG of 1050 and 40IBUs, mashed I think at 65 (haven't got records with me). It's a good sessionable beer with lots of flavour. When I first did it the plan was to slowly mod it with each batch but I've ended up sticking with cause it works so well. Oh and I like using 2565 wyeast kolsch


----------



## Bribie G

Munich is low diastatic, and not generally recommended as a 100% base malt, hopefully no starch haze in yours, I'd have tended to add a proportion of base malt or Vienna for extra conversion.


----------



## Vini2ton

Last year I did a 14.5 lt brew that I called a Sticke Altbier. 50/50 pils and vienna, wheat, carared and chocolate. Tettnanger. OG 1.054 FG 1.004. I used US-05 I can't remember why but in my diary I wrote "This is a very wonderful beer that should be repeated." With the correct yeast next time maybe. Fond memories of it's kick and taste.


----------



## manticle

@bribie - munich should be fine for self conversion. May not be the best choice for high adjunct laden beer but 100% munich = no drama.


----------



## Weizguy

Bribie G said:


> Munich is low diastatic, and not generally recommended as a 100% base malt, hopefully no starch haze in yours, I'd have tended to add a proportion of base malt or Vienna for extra conversion.


Really? Based on what evidence?

Weyermann recommend that you can use up to 100% Munich in a grist. Pretty sure other brands are also enzymatic enough to self-convert.
Yes, the diastatic power is lower than paler malts, but sill high enough to do the job in a reasonable chunk of time.


----------



## rude

2565 :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:


----------



## Dan2

+1 on the 100% Munich I.
I Have one on tap atm and there's no shortage of character.
Conversion was no problem.
Fermented with K97.
30IBU from Hal Mit (25% of that weight at 20min - the rest at start of boil), but I imagine a straight up start of boil Magnum addition would work fine - No need for late hop flavour - let that Munich shine!
Keep it simple. Add specialties next time if you're not happy


----------



## Droopy Brew

Hmm seems I was a little late on the recipe check. Grain has been crushed and combined so only one thing to do- brew it.


----------

