# Anyone For Sensational Head?



## SJW (2/5/12)

Just completed brew #7 on the Braumeister, and I have been wondering why all my beers have had sensational head. I have narrowed it down to the multi step temp mash I can now do so easy. 54, 62, 71 & 75. Brew number six I just did single infusion at 66 deg C and you guessed it the head was crap. So brew #7 was a choc Porter with the 54 deg C rest for 15 min, and against good advise I added 100g of pure Cacao nibs into the fermenter. Now if anything was going to screw up head retention it would be cacao with 50% fat. Anyway, I just poured my first after it being in the keg for 24 hours. Even after this short time, it was a little under carbed but had a dense thick mousy head about 1/4" thick that lasted right to the bottom of the glass.
So I will be including a 54 degC step in all brews in future. 

Steve


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## manticle (2/5/12)

I don't think cacao has anywhere near 50% fat but both your 54 and your 71 rest will help with head retention. I do 72 for all my beers (and 55 for most) but 70-72 will encourage glycoproteins to solubilise which help with head retention (from reading and from experience) as well as dextrins.

Little bit of reading I've done suggests the low temp (mid 50s) and high temp (low 70s) might actually work together but I'm not 100% of this last part.


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## matho (2/5/12)

I have done a 55 deg rest a couple of times on my big system and it has seemed to increase head retention and thickness a fair bit


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## glenwal (2/5/12)

I've had terrible head retention on pretty much all my beers to date. Tried a 15min 55deg rest on my last batch (inspired by this thread). Its still in the fermenter, so don't know if it made much of a difference yet, but its good to hear other people are having good results.


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## cam89brewer (2/5/12)

matho said:


> I have done a 55 deg rest a couple of times on my big system and it has seemed to increase head retention and thickness a fair bit



I don't know whether it is just a coincidence or not but for some reason a couple of time when I have left it a little too long at the 55 deg rest it seems to lead to bad head retention...


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## matho (2/5/12)

yeah I should qualify it was a 10 min rest, just enough time to heat up the water for the next step


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## Bribie G (2/5/12)

A bit of wheat does it for me - goes well in just about everything (I don't do lagers any more)

In fact with some styles I now go 50% Wheat and they turn out really fresh - for example Aussie Pale Ales;







My regular house beer, Moby Wheat (Whale Ale tribute) is 50% and it never lets me down






I just about stuffed my urn element doing a protein rest, not to say I won't do it again, but next time by resting a thick mash at 53 then dilute with hot liquor to bring to next rest.


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## Logman (2/5/12)

So what's your verdict on Cacao Nibs SJW? Thinking of trying them in my next Stout, did they come through?


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## SJW (2/5/12)

Logman said:


> So what's your verdict on Cacao Nibs SJW? Thinking of trying them in my next Stout, did they come through?


Great question. Years ago I entered 7 beers into a local comp and got back 5 awards, and if I cared what other people thought of my beers I would be entering this one in for sure. 100g of Cacao nibs in the fermenter after high krausen just gives the final beer that touch of choc. Maybe next time I would try 150g but no more. Great stuff though. I have used coco powder & lindt chocolate and it sux, cacao nib work the best. Below is the recipe. The best porter I have done I think.
Save the black malt and roast barley for stouts.


8 - Choc Porter 
Robust Porter 
Type: All Grain Date: 4/20/2012 
Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l Brewer: 
Boil Size: 28.00 l Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Braumeister 
End of Boil Volume 25.00 l Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 % 
Final Bottling Volume: 25.00 l Est Mash Efficiency 80.0 % 
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0 
Taste Notes: 
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
2000 g Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC) Grain 1 38.1 % 
1500 g Smoked Malt (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 28.6 % 
750 g Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 3 14.3 % 
600 g Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 4 11.4 % 
150 g Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.5 EBC) Grain 5 2.9 % 
150 g Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 6 2.9 % 
100 g Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 7 1.9 % 
20.00 g Magnum [14.40 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 8 32.2 IBUs 
20.00 g Fuggles [4.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 3.4 IBUs 
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml] Yeast 10 - 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 % 
Bitterness: 35.6 IBUs Calories: 487.4 kcal/l 
Est Color: 50.1 EBC 
Mash Profile


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## manticle (2/5/12)

I have not entered 76 beers in competitions but having tried cocoa, chocolate and cacao nibs in various beers, I would say 100 - 150g toasted nibs, in a single batch size and added to secondary phase gives a recognisable choc character that blows the others out of the water. I wouldn't add choc any other way (besides choc malt grain)

Still unsure about this 50% fat thing though. I'm fairly sure it's 10% or less. Where did you get that figure SJW?


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## manticle (2/5/12)

manticle said:


> Still unsure about this 50% fat thing though. I'm fairly sure it's 10% or less. Where did you get that figure SJW?



^I retract this entirely. Questioning my figures, not yours - I don't know where I got 10% from. Must have been consuming fermented cacao nibs. 40-55% seems to be the accepted range according to most, quick sources I could sum up.

I would delete it but it's always good to remind yourself of your own idiocy from time to time.


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## Logman (2/5/12)

So many stout lovers here - we dead set should have a stout lovers community/recipe thread and keep brewing/contributing until the damn thing throws a chocolate flavor!


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## Logman (2/5/12)

Men have finally moved on after 2000 years - 'how to make a women orgasm' is behind us - it's now 'how to make stout/porter taste like chocolate'!!!!


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## iralosavic (2/5/12)

Cocoa powder has about 13% fat. I'd take a guess that's where your confusion arose, Manticle. It's actually very good for you too.


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## SJW (2/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> Cocoa powder has about 13% fat. I'd take a guess that's where your confusion arose, Manticle. It's actually very good for you too.


Cacao nibs might be good or even great for you but they taste like shite. Only a distant hint of choc in there behind all this dirt and bitterness. I got no idea how they make chocolate out of this shite. But it does the job in a beer.


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## Tony (2/5/12)

I have been doing step mashes with infusions of boiling water for years, and i will agree they do help to make a better beer. I also found the extra effort helped obtain better head retention.

I find i can get better control over mouthfeel and FG, better clarity and better efficiency, usually hovering around 82% into the fermenter.

I usually infuse to between 1.8 and 2L/kg for a 10 min rest @ 52 deg
I add boiling water which brings me to about 3L/kg for 45 min at between 63 and 66 deg.... depending on the beer I'm making
I then infuse again to between 71 and 74, depending on the beer and mash out.

I adjust the initial infusion ratio to give me a final mash volume of about 48L in my 50L mash tun..... and using between 10 and 11Kg of grain for my regular batches, its a tight fit.


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## iralosavic (2/5/12)

Ever tasted the 85% cocoa chocolate? You'll spit it out if you were expecting milk chocolate sweetness. Cocoa has lots of antioxidants and health benefits. I'm not sure what process is used to form nibs, but it sounds like not a great deal is added apart from 40% fat. Haha

Anyway. Glad to have picked up a few handy tips on choc stouts. Cheers


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## felon (2/5/12)

Tony said:


> I have been doing step mashes with infusions of boiling water for years, and i will agree they do help to make a better beer. I also found the extra effort helped obtain better head retention.
> 
> I find i can get better control over mouthfeel and FG, better clarity and better efficiency, usually hovering around 82% into the fermenter.
> 
> ...



My method as well when I multistep. I wish my mash tun was bigger than 50L.


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## troopa (2/5/12)

Ive just started doing step mashes recently and have been loving the results of better flavor and head
But my 2nd last brew i did was Smurtos golden ale ... and god damn i have to throw the whole batch out because it managed to burn the crap out of my element to the point i had to sand the black off the element and without knowing that it would impart such a strong flavor i fermented it. Well its a taste of burnt biscuit and puke and about to go down the drain
Im going to avoid doing another step mash with wheat in it again until I figure out how to not burn the crap out of it


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## SJW (2/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> Ever tasted the 85% cocoa chocolate? You'll spit it out if you were expecting milk chocolate sweetness. Cocoa has lots of antioxidants and health benefits. I'm not sure what process is used to form nibs, but it sounds like not a great deal is added apart from 40% fat. Haha
> 
> Anyway. Glad to have picked up a few handy tips on choc stouts. Cheers


Not even fat is added to cacao nibs, its just Cacao beans that are the seeds of an Amazonian fruiting tree and source of all chocolate and cocoa products. Nibs are from the criollo variety and are simply the shelled and crushed chocolate beans.


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## stux (2/5/12)

SJW said:


> Cacao nibs might be good or even great for you but they taste like shite. Only a distant hint of choc in there behind all this dirt and bitterness. I got no idea how they make chocolate out of this shite. But it does the job in a beer.



They add sugar


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## fcmcg (2/5/12)

Logman said:


> So many stout lovers here - we dead set should have a stout lovers community/recipe thread and keep brewing/contributing until the damn thing throws a chocolate flavor!


Westgate Brewers...down here in Victoria , run our annual Stout Extravaganza Competition in July , each year...
At Westgate we love the dark beers...
However...as far as i am aware...any beer that has chocolate ( and coffee for that matter) added to it , to obtain some of those flavours , pretty much means that it should be enetered into the specialty category, and we don't have that category at our competition.
You can get all the choc flavour you want from grain !!
Not that some people admit that that's how they got those flavours , but in my opinion , if your entering a porter or sweet stout or oatmeal stout and you have added adjuncts to get those flavours , and not obtained them from grain only , then you shouldn't be entering.This is , of course , my opinion....hell add as much choc as you want and do what you want with it ...just don't expect me to agree with you if you enter a comp with it....


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## Kranky (2/5/12)

SJW said:


> Not even fat is added to cacao nibs, its just Cacao beans that are the seeds of an Amazonian fruiting tree and source of all chocolate and cocoa products. Nibs are from the criollo variety and are simply the shelled and crushed chocolate beans.



Cocoa beans will often contain 50% fat and so will cocoa nibs. I ground some cocoa nibs up the other week and put them through my coffee machine. The result was a hot chocolate type of drink that was undrinkable because of the amount of fat.

I understand that some brewers put cocoa nibs in the boil as a late addition. I wouldn't. Great to use in secondary.


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## Bribie G (2/5/12)

Logman said:


> Men have finally moved on after 2000 years - 'how to make a _women_ orgasm' is behind us - it's now 'how to make stout/porter taste like chocolate'!!!!



I note that you are into threesomes





Troopa said:


> Ive just started doing step mashes recently and have been loving the results of better flavor and head
> But my 2nd last brew i did was Smurtos golden ale ... and god damn i have to throw the whole batch out because it managed to burn the crap out of my element to the point i had to sand the black off the element and without knowing that it would impart such a strong flavor i fermented it. Well its a taste of burnt biscuit and puke and about to go down the drain
> Im going to avoid doing another step mash with wheat in it again until I figure out how to not burn the crap out of it



Did you have the element running in the ramp from protein rest to saccharification rest (eg 62 ?) - that just about rooted my element as well, I think because theres a lot of starches in the wort at that stage, not having been converted by the amylases, it just cakes on an electric element and turns to toast. I chucked my Bo Pils, $40 down the drain, tasted like burnt crumpets and like you I had to use Kryptonite to get the bloody thing clean again, still got crap underneath it.


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## pk.sax (2/5/12)

Gas sounds good


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## Fourstar (2/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> A bit of wheat does it for me - goes well in just about everything (I don't do lagers any more)
> 
> My regular house beer, Moby Wheat (Whale Ale tribute) is 50% and it never lets me down.



Holy shit bribie! That foam looks like meringue. :icon_drool2: 

I just bottled off some porter from my first HERMIT step mash. 55-63-71 rests. Nice mild carbonation and small tight foam cap that persists throughout the pint. I've been staring at a half empty pint for 15 mins and the foam cap hasn't budged. It seems to do its job not to mention the clarity from the rest compared to previous beers made with this base malt and no protein rest. Always had some mild haze. Can't wait to make a bitter with it.

Crisp MO for those playing at home. I almost always have haze issues with it.


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## troopa (2/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> I note that you are into threesomes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup i did


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## iralosavic (2/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> I note that you are into threesomes
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I apologise for the HJ, but this seems an important question given my intention was to do an element ramp from 55c to 63c in my BIAB on the weekend. Would it be worth the risk of pouring 11L of boiling liquor (I'll have to stove top the HL) into the mash to perform an infusion step to 63c?!


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## Fourstar (2/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> I apologise for the HJ, but this seems an important question given my intention was to do an element ramp from 55c to 63c in my BIAB on the weekend. Would it be worth the risk of pouring 11L of boiling liquor (I'll have to stove top the HL) into the mash to perform an infusion step to 63c?!




Dough in at 55, element off. Infuse to 63,wait for some conversion and go from there is my guess


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## glenwal (2/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> I apologise for the HJ, but this seems an important question given my intention was to do an element ramp from 55c to 63c in my BIAB on the weekend. Would it be worth the risk of pouring 11L of boiling liquor (I'll have to stove top the HL) into the mash to perform an infusion step to 63c?!



If i understand correctly (and hopefully someone will either confirm this, or tell me im way off the mark) - but isn't that exactly how a 3V brewer would have to do it?


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## troopa (2/5/12)

I have only found the problem with one brew out of 5 and it was the only brew that contained wheat and it was at nearly 20% worth of the bill
I have read else where that wheat seems to be the main cause of the problem in some peoples herms systems and one or 2 other electric biabs
But you wont know untill you give it a go but its your brew and if you want to play it safe i would do a 2 vessel brew but personally i would want to find out for myself if it will burn but would avoid using wheat and maybe keep the bill simple


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## iralosavic (2/5/12)

Glen: in a 3V rig with herms, the element is not exposed to the mash, so this would not be an issue. Most people would still prefer to infuse their steps. I tend to avoid infusions, as I have no HLT, just a pot and stovetop.

I'm not sure how substantiated the theory is that a 50-56c rest will aid head retention in highly modified malt, but I'm willing to experiment. I'm keen to see how a glycoprotein rest helps head too.


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## Bribie G (2/5/12)

Our German cousins do their steps by adding hot liquor, AFAIK so it's a tried and tested method. 

There are plenty of hot water mixing calculators online, I use one of them when I'm doing a cereal mash for my killer malt liquor so I can pour the near boiling cooker mash (rice / maize whatever) into the main mash without having to wait for it to cool back down to 63 degrees whatever. Works within a half of a degree with most liquids and slurries. Come to think of it, what I've been doing with my Midnight Train is probably doing a protein rest with the main mash as well, use the cooker mash to ramp it to sacch rest. Hmmm. 

I'm making an 8% Midnight Train Malt Liquor for the July case swap, I'll do some calcs.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (2/5/12)

Tony said:


> I have been doing step mashes with infusions of boiling water for years, and i will agree they do help to make a better beer. I also found the extra effort helped obtain better head retention.
> 
> I find i can get better control over mouthfeel and FG, better clarity and better efficiency, usually hovering around 82% into the fermenter.
> 
> ...



+1 - step mashed last 6 brews using full Hermit system. Makes a huge difference on mouthfeel, head and clarity. 
Cheers
BBB


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## Bada Bing Brewery (2/5/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> +1 - step mashed last 6 brews using full Hermit system. Makes a huge difference on mouthfeel, head and clarity.
> Cheers
> BBB



Big fairy clap - I'm finally a beer god ...... i shall now retire and live of hte royalties from my posts ....
BBB


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## Deebo (2/5/12)

So if I am reading this calculator right..(http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm) If my mash was 55c with about 25L of water.. then added 8L of boiling water.. I should be round about 65.9 C ?


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## iralosavic (2/5/12)

So instead of 27L strike water, I reserve around 5-6L of it to use to raise from 55 to 63 (closer to 5800ml), so I strike in with 21-22L~ instead?


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## manticle (2/5/12)

fergthebrewer said:


> However...as far as i am aware...any beer that has chocolate ( and coffee for that matter) added to it , to obtain some of those flavours , pretty much means that it should be enetered into the specialty category, and we don't have that category at our competition.
> You can get all the choc flavour you want from grain !!
> Not that some people admit that that's how they got those flavours , but in my opinion , if your entering a porter or sweet stout or oatmeal stout and you have added adjuncts to get those flavours , and not obtained them from grain only , then you shouldn't be entering.This is , of course , my opinion....hell add as much choc as you want and do what you want with it ...just don't expect me to agree with you if you enter a comp with it....



I completely disagree ferg.

A beer in a comp is judged as a beer and what flavours it has upon the tasting (and how they balance up etc), not how those flavours got there.

Next you'll be saying kits can't be entered in comps.

The beer should be judged on the merits as it presents and judged by the only tool the judge has - their palate. You don't know how someone made a beer so you can't judge based on your presumptions. You taste coffee in a stout? Could be choc malt, roast barley, instant coffee, chicory essence or ground arabica beans. You don't know and if it's done well you won't have any idea. If it's done well, it also deserves to be recognised.

Furthermore, if there is no specialty category offered then people can't enter their beers into said category so it's not even an option. If a porter with cacao nibs beats a porter without, it's going to be based on more than just the cacoa - it needs to be a good beer, fault free, well balanced and judged within the guidelines.


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## mje1980 (3/5/12)

SJW said:


> Just completed brew #7 on the Braumeister, and I have been wondering why all my beers have had sensational head. I have narrowed it down to the multi step temp mash I can now do so easy. 54, 62, 71 & 75. Brew number six I just did single infusion at 66 deg C and you guessed it the head was crap. So brew #7 was a choc Porter with the 54 deg C rest for 15 min, and against good advise I added 100g of pure Cacao nibs into the fermenter. Now if anything was going to screw up head retention it would be cacao with 50% fat. Anyway, I just poured my first after it being in the keg for 24 hours. Even after this short time, it was a little under carbed but had a dense thick mousy head about 1/4" thick that lasted right to the bottom of the glass.
> So I will be including a 54 degC step in all brews in future.
> 
> Steve




Been having problems lately regarding head. I sure can't afford a BM, but i have been playing with the low 70's glycoprotein rest to help head and retention, as per advice from manticle. I love KISS, but gee, a herms/rims/bm type setup looks the goods!!!!. I think step mashing has made a difference for sure, as most have said regarding body, mouthfeel etc.


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## yum beer (3/5/12)

manticle said:


> I completely disagree ferg.
> 
> A beer in a comp is judged as a beer and what flavours it has upon the tasting (and how they balance up etc), not how those flavours got there.
> 
> ...





here here


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## humulus (3/5/12)

SJW said:


> Just completed brew #7 on the Braumeister, and I have been wondering why all my beers have had sensational head. I have narrowed it down to the multi step temp mash I can now do so easy. 54, 62, 71 & 75. Brew number six I just did single infusion at 66 deg C and you guessed it the head was crap. So brew #7 was a choc Porter with the 54 deg C rest for 15 min, and against good advise I added 100g of pure Cacao nibs into the fermenter. Now if anything was going to screw up head retention it would be cacao with 50% fat. Anyway, I just poured my first after it being in the keg for 24 hours. Even after this short time, it was a little under carbed but had a dense thick mousy head about 1/4" thick that lasted right to the bottom of the glass.
> So I will be including a 54 degC step in all brews in future.
> 
> Steve


Steve did you get this recipe from brewbuilder,gotta place an order with MHB soon anyway??!!
cheers Glenn


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## davo4772 (3/5/12)

[
There are plenty of hot water mixing calculators online, I use one of them 

[/quote]

Awesome calculator, cheers.


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## SJW (3/5/12)

manticle said:


> I completely disagree ferg.
> 
> A beer in a comp is judged as a beer and what flavours it has upon the tasting (and how they balance up etc), not how those flavours got there.
> 
> ...


I agree withe you Manticle, who gives a shit what some judges think of my beer at a beer comp. Like I said in another thread. Done comps, got the awards now I make beer to drink. If it tastes good, make it, and most of all DRINK IT.

Steve


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## SJW (3/5/12)

humulus said:


> Steve did you get this recipe from brewbuilder,gotta place an order with MHB soon anyway??!!
> cheers Glenn


No I dont think so. I think I got it from this site somewhere.


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## Wolfman (3/5/12)

SJW said:


> 8 - Choc Porter
> Robust Porter
> Type: All Grain Date: 4/20/2012
> Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l Brewer:
> ...




Doing a version of this today.

Due to stock issues i have sub out and replace with the following:

Munich II for Caramunich II 
Carafa III for Carafa II
Caraamber for Caraaroma 
And added .06 of Roast Barley as I don't have the nibs.

I also don't have any Magnum hops. So I have subbed them for 15g P.O.R and 15g First Gold.


See how I go I surpose!


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## bignath (3/5/12)

Wolfman said:


> Doing a version of this today.
> 
> Due to stock issues i have sub out and replace with the following:
> 
> ...



:icon_offtopic: 

Wolf, i've got buttloads of Magnum if you want mate. Could do with getting rid of some. Let me know and i'll send you some gratis.

BN

EDIT: Should clarify, it's the US Magnum i have. There's a German one too i think, but mine is the US version. I probably have around 350-400g's of it. Could send you a hundred if you like.


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## Wolfman (3/5/12)

Just PM you Nath.


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## Yob (3/5/12)

the title of this thread is quite mileading  

and also +1 for the wheat... _EVERY_ brew Ive done for a long time has had wheat additions... only small (5%ish) though so I might try and bump it up for the next one to 20%

:icon_cheers:


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## SJW (3/5/12)

Wolfman said:


> Doing a version of this today.
> 
> Due to stock issues i have sub out and replace with the following:
> 
> ...


Looks great mate, I was meant to use Munich but had to go with Vienna. Health food shops sell cacao nibs. I would just use the RB for colour but thats such a small amount anyway. Also use Carafa SPECIAL if u can, as it has no husks.
Either way it should be sensational.

Steve


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## Wolfman (3/5/12)

I went with chinook at 90 and splat at 10. 

Going to use this as my swap for the Vic Xmas in July!


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## Malted (3/5/12)

iamozziyob said:


> the title of this thread is quite misleading


Whilst it might have added a few miles, I corrected that for you but I still have no idea what you mean











 Yes back to my old tricks


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## felten (3/5/12)

CSL


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## QldKev (3/5/12)

iamozziyob said:


> the title of this thread is quite mileading
> 
> and also +1 for the wheat... _EVERY_ brew Ive done for a long time has had wheat additions... only small (5%ish) though so I might try and bump it up for the next one to 20%
> 
> :icon_cheers:





I keep thinking I'm on the other forum, luckily I don't post the pics to the wrong one


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## Bribie G (3/5/12)

As an unaltered person coming from a particular country where male babies have never generally, been altered unless for medical reasons, who doesn't need the services alluded to in the topic title ---- nonetheless I sympathise with the generally over 30s altered  Australian men who find that those services compensate for the loss of sensitivity concomitant with their original alteration. 

So mod me


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## Fourstar (3/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> So mod me




mod me now.

Crap, so thats what i have to look forward to in 3 years time, lack of sensitivity!


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## QldKev (3/5/12)

ok, I'm finding this hard to follow. What time are the *ladies *getting here


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## iralosavic (3/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> As an unaltered person coming from a particular country where male babies have never generally, been altered unless for medical reasons, who doesn't need the services alluded to in the topic title ---- nonetheless I sympathise with the generally over 30s altered  Australian men who find that those services compensate for the loss of sensitivity concomitant with their original alteration.
> 
> So mod me



Summed me up. But I feel more sorry for those who are STILL being altered (butchered without concent, to use more loaded language), despite the slap in the face "accessibility" to information/evididence/research contradicting all historical justifications for such procedures. I'm sorry, but only complete ignorance could allow it to still happen without morality and justice being deliberately thrown aside. Not to spark up a debate (probably a non-issue in a gender biased forum anyway), but it is a subject I feel strongly about; not so much for my own loss, but simply out of the principal of righteousness: to quaff one's freedom of choice while unable to speak for oneself removed in a barbaric and permanently life-altering manner would rattle my chains regardless of my status. /End off topic rant.


I think I may have upped the ante for moderation. Touche, Bribe G


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## mje1980 (4/5/12)

From the tone of that post you're not much for "freedom of choice" haha

Back to beer


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## Wolfman (4/5/12)

felten said:


> CSL



What's this all about?


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## SJW (4/5/12)

And to think when I named this topic the only other work I could think of for (beer) head was foam. I hate how the yanks call it foam. Foam is what the old esky is made of or whats inside the kids surfboards or what fire trucks use to extinguish oil fires, not beer head. So sorry if I got a few of you all excited.

Steve


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## Malted (4/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> Summed me up. But I feel more sorry for those who are STILL being altered (butchered without concent, to use more loaded language), despite the slap in the face "accessibility" to information/evididence/research contradicting all historical justifications for such procedures. I'm sorry, but only complete ignorance could allow it to still happen without morality and justice being deliberately thrown aside. Not to spark up a debate (probably a non-issue in a gender biased forum anyway), but it is a subject I feel strongly about; not so much for my own loss, but simply out of the principal of righteousness: to quaff one's freedom of choice while unable to speak for oneself removed in a barbaric and permanently life-altering manner would rattle my chains regardless of my status. /End off topic rant.
> 
> 
> I think I may have upped the ante for moderation. Touche, Bribe G


I too have a handsome knob rather than a droopy, sheath encased knob and am thankful for it. My missus says that they are much more attractive if they have had a snip, apparently she has seen a few. Oh and she is a nurse and predominately works in old folks homes and washes a lot of crusty cheese from uncircumcised old dudes. She says it is disgusting and is a prime source for infection for old folks who don't have the energy or mobility to clean it properly. I guess it would be the same with children. Not all of these 'not able to clean my knob properly' old dudes live in nursing homes. So yes medical evidence etc may dispute the necessity of the snip but in the real world, my missus has seen the stinky cheese. 
I should imagine that I have lost a bit of sensitivity with having had some skin removed but the up side to that is my girlfriends' have usually always 'arrived' before me; chicks dig that.


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## glenwal (4/5/12)

SJW said:


> And to think when I named this topic the only other work I could think of for (beer) head was foam. I hate how the yanks call it foam. Foam is what the old esky is made of or whats inside the kids surfboards or what fire trucks use to extinguish oil fires, not beer head. So sorry if I got a few of you all excited.
> 
> Steve



Does that mean if you have an overcarbed beer or unbalanced taps you get excessive heading? :icon_cheers:


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## SJW (4/5/12)

I got no idea how this thread got onto old men with crusty dick cheese, but apologies anyway.


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## Yob (4/5/12)

back on topic :lol:


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## Logman (4/5/12)

Need to get this thread off topic again and discuss beer. Anyone put nibs in the boil or mash?


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## felten (4/5/12)

Wolfman said:


> What's this all about?


Might have to urbandictionary it, and pick an entry that seems right for the picture


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## SJW (5/5/12)

Logman said:


> Need to get this thread off topic again and discuss beer. Anyone put nibs in the boil or mash?


I think I would not like to put nibs in the boilas they have 44.7% fat I would not like to release that into the beer. At least by adding them to the fermenter its cool and maybe that keeps the fat from coming out of the nibs into the beer.
Also the cacao only imparts a very soft choc flavour so I dont know how this would be affected in the boil or mash.

Steve


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## iralosavic (5/5/12)

Can you just use cocoa powder?


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## manticle (5/5/12)

You can use cocoa powder. Like all things, while similar the nibs are different enough to give a different flavour - one that I prefer, having tried cocoa in the past.


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## Logman (6/5/12)

SJW said:


> I think I would not like to put nibs in the boilas they have 44.7% fat I would not like to release that into the beer. At least by adding them to the fermenter its cool and maybe that keeps the fat from coming out of the nibs into the beer.
> Also the cacao only imparts a very soft choc flavour so I dont know how this would be affected in the boil or mash.


Fair enough. I brewed up an Oatmeal Stout yesterday and cubed it, going to dry nib that. Used 2 x 85 % Lindt in a triple batch as well.

I had a Mildura Brewery Choc Hops Stout a couple of days back - very fresh choc taste, much like Youngs Double Chocolate Stout. Has a real 'hot chocolate' type of flavor - is that what to expect from Nibs or is that Cocoa?


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## SJW (6/5/12)

I would still bey that the big breweries would use some type of choc eessence or flavouring. I never got good results with Lindt choc or coco powder, and like I said before I would never again put anything with high fat contents in the boil. It is a head killer.


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## manticle (6/5/12)

Young's uses an essence as far as I'm aware.

Possibly depending on how many nibs you add but dry nibbing will just give a very pleasant choc character - it won't be full on, in your face chocolate, something I prefer anyway. Complements things like chocolate malt well.

I'd rather drink a hot chocolate or nibble a nice piece of chocolate while drinking my beer than overdo it. I like most of Young's beers but am not a huge fan of that over the top choc syrup taste in the stout.


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## Logman (6/5/12)

manticle said:


> I'd rather drink a hot chocolate or nibble a nice piece of chocolate while drinking my beer than overdo it. I like most of Young's beers but am not a huge fan of that over the top choc syrup taste in the stout.


It's not a taste I really associate with beer either TBH, thought Youngs was an OK drink but not something I'd get again. The Mildura Brewery Choc Hops Stout had a really similar choc note to it, was pretty impressed with it but probably wouldn't get it again for the same reason, just prefer a stronger Stout. Great drink for the females who like dark beer I would imagine. Certainly worth buying one to say you've tried it though, mouthfeel etc was really nice.


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## Logman (24/5/12)

Yesterday I kegged my first Stout with Cacao Nibs :icon_drool2: . It was in the Primary for about 10 days and it went to a secondary for two days to get the remaining nibs etc out. Rolled it around on the Co2 for about a minute and hooked it up to Nitro planning to just leave it for a few weeks. So I couldn't help myself and thought I'd have a try - ended up having 3 schooners :icon_drunk: . I used 2 Lindt 85% in a triple batch and 125g of Nibs per fermenter. The Lindt is well and truly present this time as are the nibs - I used a lot more smoked malt and that seemed to lift the chocolate. Can't believe I've got three batches of it, going to be a heavy couple of months....


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## SJW (24/5/12)

It's a great recipe, and an even better beer. Just wait another few weeks, if u can, it will be sensational.


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## Ross (24/5/12)

SJW said:


> I would still bey that the big breweries would use some type of choc eessence or flavouring. I never got good results with Lindt choc or coco powder, and like I said before I would never again put anything with high fat contents in the boil. It is a head killer.



We use cocao nibs in the boil, in the fermenter, aged for months in oak barrels & a combination of all 3 - Head on our beer in all cases has been excellent...

cheers Ross


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## Logman (24/5/12)

SJW said:


> It's a great recipe, and an even better beer. Just wait another few weeks, if u can, it will be sensational.


I've still got another cube so maybe half of that will go into bottles for a six month rest. Plus there was 2 kegs yesterday, I'll drink the first and leave the second for at least 4-6 weeks (famous last words).

I see what you mean about not boiling the nibs, it's kind of a dry taste, very nice. I might toast them a little next time as suggested. Great stuff, glad I tried it :icon_cheers:


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## Logman (24/5/12)

Ross said:


> We use cocao nibs in the boil, in the fermenter, aged for months in oak barrels & a combination of all 3 - Head on our beer in all cases has been excellent...
> 
> cheers Ross


Oh ok - posted before I saw your reply Ross. I'd wondered if they could be boiled for a more intense flavor, might try that next time I brew a Stout...


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## Malted (24/5/12)

Ross said:


> We use cocao nibs in the boil, in the fermenter, aged for months in oak barrels & a combination of all 3 - Head on our beer in all cases has been excellent...
> 
> cheers Ross



This is interesting Ross, can you give more details? 
For instance, how long are they in the boil? What sort of amount g/L would you use? Do they go in as-is or would you recommend crushing the nibs or some sort of other pre-treatment? Do you skim during the boil, would this removes the fats with the coagulated components on the surface? Are there fining agents that you use that would bond with the cocoa fats? 

Can you account for how you are able to get a good head on the beers despite the potential presence of the cocoa fats? Is it good head or good, persistent head? I know that the presence of saliva can be enough to kill the head on a beer in a glass in some circumstances, so I am genuinely interested in the cocoa nibs. Maybe it is just a case of, ok if used in small amounts?


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## humulus (24/5/12)

Malted said:


> This is interesting Ross, can you give more details?
> For instance, how long are they in the boil? What sort of amount g/L would you use? Do they go in as-is or would you recommend crushing the nibs or some sort of other pre-treatment? Do you skim during the boil, would this removes the fats with the coagulated components on the surface? Are there fining agents that you use that would bond with the cocoa fats?
> 
> Can you account for how you are able to get a good head on the beers despite the potential presence of the cocoa fats? Is it good head or good, persistent head? I know that the presence of saliva can be enough to kill the head on a beer in a glass in some circumstances, so I am genuinely interested in the cocoa nibs. Maybe it is just a case of, ok if used in small amounts?


+1 for what malted said,I'd be very interested to see/hear!!! :beer: :beer:


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## a1149913 (25/5/12)

Will just about all beers benefit from a 15 min protein rest between 50 and 55C? How long should the saccharification rest be if you have a protein rest? 

Thanks, Jacob


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## Fourstar (25/5/12)

Jacob Thomas said:


> Will just about all beers benefit from a 15 min protein rest between 50 and 55C? How long should the saccharification rest be if you have a protein rest?
> 
> Thanks, Jacob




IMO, majority of cases may benefit with a 55deg protein rest and have minimal to no negative impact on foam stability as long as you do not drop below this temperature and hold for an extended period.

Simply hold at 55 deg for 5-10 mins and begin your ramp or dump in your next infusion temperature and you're food to go with saccharification rests.

Unless you have a real need to perform a lower temperature protein rest, stick with 55 deg.


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## Bongchitis (25/5/12)

Fourstar said:


> IMO, majority of cases may benefit with a 55deg protein rest and have minimal to no negative impact on foam stability as long as you do not drop below this temperature and hold for an extended period.
> 
> Simply hold at 55 deg for 5-10 mins and begin your ramp or dump in your next infusion temperature and you're food to go with saccharification rests.
> 
> Unless you have a real need to perform a lower temperature protein rest, stick with 55 deg.



So doughing in at 38 degC and ramping up to the 55 degC rest is a no go in terms of foam stability? Still trying to get my head around the best general mash regime for the BM. 

Cheers for any assistance.


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## Fourstar (25/5/12)

for the short time its held at those lower protease temperatures it shouldn't be much of an issue however there is no need to start your rests any lower than 55deg for 99% of cases of using highly modified modern malts. The only exception to the rule would potentially be for a ferule acid rest if doing a weizen or to increase the available FAN. consequently for the latter you would probably be degrading the much loved medium chain proteins that we are trying to emphasise as discussed in this thread.

IMO, don't waste your time with anything else if not required. Simply dough in and attempt to nail the 55deg rest. If missed begin ramping/cooling immediately, reach 55deg and hold for 5-10 mins


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## Malted (25/5/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Still trying to get my head around the best general mash regime for the BM.
> 
> Cheers for any assistance.


I too tried to tackle this one. Whilst there are a few threads about various mash regimes, here is a link to one of them: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=62204


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## Danwood (25/5/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Big fairy clap - I'm finally a beer god ...... i shall now retire and live of hte royalties from my posts ....
> BBB




How does one become a 'Beer God' ?

Is it by chopping off another beer god's head...similar to 'Highlander.....there can be only one !!!

Right....where's my kilt <_<


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## Nick JD (25/5/12)

I usually dough in with hot tap water (because I mill so fine it avoids doughballs) which gives me an initial rest temperature in the mid fifties. 

IMO, using my gear it improves head retention and body in general - but only really when I ramp up to _low sacc rests_ like 62-64C. I find no difference in mashes warmer than 66C.


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## hsb (25/5/12)

Malted said:


> I too tried to tackle this one. Whilst there are a few threads about various mash regimes, here is a link to one of them: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=62204



That thread (which is a great resource already) talks about 50, 52, 55 and 58C. 

(From other thread)
50 - Short Protein Rest
52 - ? I'm assuming just an ideal just above 50C?
55 - ? in the middle ideal ?
58 - Medium Protein Rest

What's the deal there? Stop at 50C and 58C? 
Is 55C just an in-the-middle number to try and nail the best of both worlds?


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## Nick JD (25/5/12)

hsb said:


> That thread (which is a great resource already) talks about 50, 52, 55 and 58C.
> 
> (From other thread)
> 50 - Short Protein Rest
> ...



Have a read about highly modified malts and protein rests.


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## hsb (25/5/12)

hsb said:


> What's the deal there? Stop at 50C and 58C?
> Is 55C just an in-the-middle number to try and nail the best of both worlds?


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## SJW (25/5/12)

I dough in at tap temp, ie about 10 deg C these days, and ramp it up to 54 deg C for 10 min the 61, 71 & 78 or just go to 73 deg C for mash out.
My understanding is there is a whole bunch of enzymes that will be activated and working on the mash from about 20 deg C up, so any short amount of time the BM spends ramping up through these temps does not hurt and may indeed help the mash.


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## hsb (25/5/12)

Hehe, 50,52,54,55,58. The protein lottery numbers are in! I'll stick with 52/58 for now then but might consider just going 55 instead. As per the other thread, there is a multitude of similar but dissimilar information to be had.

61/71 - sounds unusual - super dry/extra body & head retention? Is that for lagers? Or just very dry ales?


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## Malted (25/5/12)

Danwood said:


> How does one become a 'Beer God' ?
> Is it by chopping off another beer god's head...similar to 'Highlander.....there can be only one !!!
> Right....where's my kilt <_<


I think it is actually a bastardisation of "Oh Dear God" and is derived from the AGB or After Grog Bog, or more precisely, sharting. "Oh Dear God! I have Just Shart Myself" which is generally contracted to "Dear God!". So I guess the simple answer is once you have drunk so much beer that you have at some stage shart yourself because of having drunk such a volume of beer. I suppose that once you have muttered this phrase that those nearby you may well utter the same phrase once their olfactory systems kick in, it may well be that you could be mistaken for thinking they were calling you a 'beer god'.





hsb said:


> That thread (which is a great resource already) talks about 50, 52, 55 and 58C.


There are other posts that have hit this territory, I just went to that thread for personal reasons.  




hsb said:


> (From other thread)
> 50 - Short Protein Rest
> 52 - ? I'm assuming just an ideal just above 50C?
> 55 - ? in the middle ideal ?
> ...


Just use temperature numbers that are easy to remember. See below:



Nick JD said:


> I often do the "twos" in my step mashing as it's easy to remember.
> 42, 52, 62, 72C


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## Danwood (25/5/12)

Malted said:


> I think it is actually a bastardisation of "Oh Dear God" and is derived from the AGB or After Grog Bog, or more precisely, sharting. "Oh Dear God! I have Just Shart Myself" which is generally contracted to "Dear God!". So I guess the simple answer is once you have drunk so much beer that you have at some stage shart yourself because of having drunk such a volume of beer. I suppose that once you have muttered this phrase that those nearby you may well utter the same phrase once their olfactory systems kick in, it may well be that you could be mistaken for thinking they were calling you a 'beer god'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And there are a lot of 'Beer' Gods on this site, aren't there...oh dear


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## SJW (25/5/12)

hsb said:


> 61/71 - sounds unusual - super dry/extra body & head retention? Is that for lagers? Or just very dry ales?


 <_< 61 for Beta amalase conversion and 71 for Alpha amalase conversion, and I vary the time at each temp depending on what I am brewing and what profile I want. Why is there any other way to do it? seeing as we are talking temp step mashing?


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## manticle (25/5/12)

hsb said:


> .
> 
> 61/71 - sounds unusual - super dry/extra body & head retention? Is that for lagers? Or just very dry ales?



Look up 'hochkurz'

As SJW suggests you are targeting both sets of saccharification enzymes. I do 62-3 and 67 -68 for most beers. A drier beer gets a longer low rest and a fuller bodied/dextrinous beer gets a shorter low rest.

You get a full bodied, dextrinous beer that attenuates well and finishes dry, just like a good beer should.

Have a crack. My regular regime is low for 10-15 and high for 40-50. Finishes the same as my 64-67 single infusion beers (1010-1012 depending on yeast, as low as 1008 for some special types like duvel homage) but with a nice body that belies that. Not sweet.

55 and 72 rest for head retention. Both 5-10 mins only.


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## Clutch (25/5/12)

Nick JD said:


> I usually dough in with hot tap water (because I mill so fine it avoids doughballs) which gives me an initial rest temperature in the mid fifties.
> 
> IMO, using my gear it improves head retention and body in general - but only really when I ramp up to _low sacc rests_ like 62-64C. I find no difference in mashes warmer than 66C.




No hot water taste issues Nick?
I've often thought about doing this to shortcut warmup, but read that it can affect taste?


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## SJW (25/5/12)

Thanks Manticle


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## Nick JD (25/5/12)

Clutch said:


> No hot water taste issues Nick?



I can't tell the difference.


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## Ross (26/5/12)

Malted said:


> This is interesting Ross, can you give more details?
> For instance, how long are they in the boil? What sort of amount g/L would you use? Do they go in as-is or would you recommend crushing the nibs or some sort of other pre-treatment? Do you skim during the boil, would this removes the fats with the coagulated components on the surface? Are there fining agents that you use that would bond with the cocoa fats?
> 
> Can you account for how you are able to get a good head on the beers despite the potential presence of the cocoa fats? Is it good head or good, persistent head? I know that the presence of saliva can be enough to kill the head on a beer in a glass in some circumstances, so I am genuinely interested in the cocoa nibs. Maybe it is just a case of, ok if used in small amounts?




We add at the start of the boil & grind the nibs through our grain mill, we boil for 60 mins & don't skim. When "dry nibbing" we process the nibs through a coffee grinder to a powder for maximum extraction. The head on these beers matches that of any other similar style not using nibs.
Generally used at approx 110gm per 20L but have gone much higher. Never noticed any coagulated components on the surface, but then we always draw from the bottom (as you would) leaving the surface layer with the break material in the boiler or the yeast in the fermenter. If you are kegging, you are always drawing from the bottom, so again, any surface layer will not be noticed to the very last drop. That said, i've never noticed any surface film regardless. If you are bottling, then you may have to be carefull not to bottle the surface film if there is one.

Sorry, I don't know the science, just practical experience.

cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (26/5/12)

Ross said:


> We add at the start of the boil & grind the nibs through our grain mill, we boil for 60 mins & don't skim. When "dry nibbing" we process the nibs through a coffee grinder to a powder for maximum extraction. The head on these beers matches that of any other similar style not using nibs.
> Generally used at approx 110gm per 20L but have gone much higher. Never noticed any coagulated components on the surface, but then we always draw from the bottom (as you would) leaving the surface layer with the break material in the boiler or the yeast in the fermenter. If you are kegging, you are always drawing from the bottom, so again, any surface layer will not be noticed to the very last drop. That said, i've never noticed any surface film regardless. If you are bottling, then you may have to be carefull not to bottle the surface film if there is one.
> 
> Sorry, I don't know the science, just practical experience.
> ...



Nibs are about 40% fat. Malted barley is 1.2% fat. 

The composition of hot break is 1-2% fat; cold break 0%.

My guess is the kettle floccing agents probably take care of the chocofat.


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## Bongchitis (26/5/12)

SJW said:


> Thanks Manticle



+1 I have read the other threads but Mants just made it click for me with 2 lines. .... Cheers mate.


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## geoffd (26/5/12)

Hey Manticle, see ing as you have cocoa down pat, have you any idea of colour contributions (ball ParK) in cse you missed my other thread.

PS...OP or MODS is it possible to edit the heading of this thread to include the word chocolate or cocoa...I think the search function only looks at the topic title, making it a right little bugger to find again.


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## SJW (26/5/12)

Father Jack said:


> Hey Manticle, see ing as you have cocoa down pat, have you any idea of colour contributions (ball ParK) in cse you missed my other thread.
> 
> PS...OP or MODS is it possible to edit the heading of this thread to include the word chocolate or cocoa...I think the search function only looks at the topic title, making it a right little bugger to find again.


This thread was never meant to be about cacao nibs or choc, it was all about doing a 54 deg C rest on the BM and getting "sensational head" every time.
All my brews now, even ales get a multi step mash with 15mins at 54 deg C.


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## manticle (26/5/12)

Father Jack said:


> Hey Manticle, see ing as you have cocoa down pat, have you any idea of colour contributions (ball ParK) in cse you missed my other thread.
> 
> PS...OP or MODS is it possible to edit the heading of this thread to include the word chocolate or cocoa...I think the search function only looks at the topic title, making it a right little bugger to find again.



I did see the other thread but in terms of numbers I can't answer your question. I have used cocoa and cacao nibs but only in porters and stouts.

Only trying it in a pale beer would give me the experiential info that you're chasing. Using cocoa or cacao with a whole lot of black, RB and Choc won't give much info that's of use to you.


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