# Is chill in fermenter really that bad ?



## mongey (7/8/18)

so this weekend I am doing my first full ,all grain , BIAB after doing a bunch of partial mash's with extract . time to do the real thing . with my partials I have used cool tap water to top up and drop to temp close to pitching ,then let it sit in the fermenter in the fridge for a few hours . but seems that doing the full 23l boil with biab is best . so I need to cool the wort all the way 

I was planning to siphon to my sanitized fermenter and put that in my chilled brewing fridge overnight to drop to pitching temp but on googling it seems many are opposed to this idea .I don't have an option to put my 50l pot in the sink to cool to wort, small sinks , and buying a cube just to let it cool seems a waste when I just want to ferment the bad boy.

is it really that bad of an idea to do in the fermenter ? 

If I do need to cube is just a standard 25l water one from bunnings ok for hot wort ? 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/icon-plastics-25l-blue-tint-water-storage-drum-with-bung_p3240532


thanks


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## malt and barley blues (7/8/18)

Plenty of people chill in either kettle or fermenter overnight, I did the chill in fermenter for years without any problems.


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## mongey (7/8/18)

malt and barley blues said:


> Plenty of people chill in either kettle or fermenter overnight, I did the chill in fermenter for years without any problems.


thanks


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## Leyther (7/8/18)

I chill in the fermentor fridge all the time, its not always easy to get down to pitching temp without doing so, I brewed on the weekend but only managed to get down to 28C so I put into the fermentor and let it chill down to 18 before I pitch.


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## Rocker1986 (7/8/18)

I do a variation of this with my yeast starters, leaving the flask sitting on the stove to cool to room temp before pitching them (obviously covered with foil). 

I think it would be fine if you put hot wort into it and let sit overnight then pitched yeast first thing the next morning, but if you are leaving it any longer then it's best to fill a cube completely and seal it up. I always use cubes as my pitching yeast days rarely, if ever line up with the day after a brew day. I just put them in the brew fridge for a few hours before pitching to chill the wort down closer to ferment temp if required. I wouldn't be as confident leaving cooled wort sitting around in a fermenter for hours before pitching it though, it's a perfect environment for nasties to start growing. Better off just pitching it even if it is a bit warmer than you'd like.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (7/8/18)

I sometimes leave mine in the boil kettle with the lid on for 24 hrs while it cools the last bit to pitching temp because I like to splash it about to oxygenate it in the fermenter and I want the yeast to be straight onto that oxygen so the wort isn't oxidized.


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## Danscraftbeer (7/8/18)

*is it really that bad of an idea to do in the fermenter ?*

I say yes it is. Its offering plenty of opportunity for countless unwanted microorganisms to get a growing start in your wort before the yeast is introduced. The real test would be side by side tests of the same brew done with good practice compared to the beer that's been done were it will probably, maybe be ok, maybe, take your chances etc.
I did it once in the past in a plastic fermenter, the beer was shit. I did it in a stainless steel kegmenter and I could taste a flavor that should not have been there. Simply its just the air in the headspace will carry plenty of unwanted microorganisms that will thrive in your sweet wort. Do the maths of bacterial growth. One microorganism turns into 2, into 4, into 8, into 16, into 32 etc etc. After hours that turns into millions, even billions since it will start with a lot more than one to begging with. You need to find better practice if you really care about making good beer.


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## Leyther (7/8/18)

Danscraftbeer said:


> *is it really that bad of an idea to do in the fermenter ?*
> 
> I say yes it is. Its offering plenty of opportunity for countless unwanted microorganisms to get a growing start in your wort before the yeast is introduced. The real test would be side by side tests of the same brew done with good practice compared to the beer that's been done were it will probably, maybe be ok, maybe, take your chances etc.
> I did it once in the past in a plastic fermenter, the beer was shit. I did it in a stainless steel kegmenter and I could taste a flavor that should not have been there. Simply its just the air in the headspace will carry plenty of unwanted microorganisms that will thrive in your sweet wort. Do the maths of bacterial growth. One microorganism turns into 2, into 4, into 8, into 16, into 32 etc etc. After hours that turns into millions, even billions since it will start with a lot more than one to begging with. You need to find better practice if you really care about making good beer.




I don't think anyone would disagree with what your saying its just not always practical hence sometimes its the only option available, I would love to get my wort down to pitch temp but even after chilling my fermentor before putting the wort in its still higher than where I would want it i.e. between 25 and 35C which is higher than the ferment temp I want, how do you get yours down that last 10C? 

Also raises another Q on this subject, is it better to chill your wort to ferment temp i.e. 20C and then pitch or is it better to pitch immediately at a higher temp i.e. 35C and let it cool down to ferment temp? would this perhaps cause some thermal shock to the yeast or would the cooling be gradual enough that this is not an issue?

With yeast lag time those nasties in the air are always going to be present in some form.


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## malt and barley blues (7/8/18)

You don't have to go to far back when wort was put into the fermenter to cool and a tea towel or pillow case was the cover for the fermeter. There was no other choice, never heard of anyone getting infections overnight.


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## soreba (7/8/18)

My personal preference would be just to get a chiller.. For the price of 3 cubes from bunnings... https://www.kegland.com.au/wort-heat-exchanger-counterflow-chiller.html
Throw it in the fridge to pull it down the rest of the way and pitch an hour or two later..Your then done and dusted for the day.


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## Bonenose (7/8/18)

I have a couple dozen bottles of frozen water in the freezer and an old esky with magnetic drive pump screwded into the drain. Once you have dropped temp af far as you can, I normally swap at 35-40, recirc ice water through your chiller. Can also use plastic fermenter I think the tap is 1/2 inch have used them before.


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## Leyther (7/8/18)

soreba said:


> My personal preference would be just to get a chiller.. For the price of 3 cubes from bunnings... https://www.kegland.com.au/wort-heat-exchanger-counterflow-chiller.html
> Throw it in the fridge to pull it down the rest of the way and pitch an hour or two later..Your then done and dusted for the day.



I have an immersion chiller but that's only good for about 27C in winter and 35C in summer even in Melbourne and that's after > 30mins, my garden loves it, my water bill not so 

Maybe need to look at an alternative chiller.


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## mongey (7/8/18)

Leyther said:


> I have an immersion chiller but that's only good for about 27C in winter and 35C in summer even in Melbourne and that's after > 30mins, my garden loves it, my water bill not so
> 
> Maybe need to look at an alternative chiller.


yeah I looked at an immersion chiller but in these drought times I cant justify it just on the wasting water factor


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## Bonenose (7/8/18)

Fair point on the water, could possibly collect it and use later but probably easier going no chill.


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## eviltabouleh (7/8/18)

Has anyone used the kegland chiller, For $55 i might make the jump. it's cheaper than trying to make my own even thought I have a stainless coil handy
I have a 1000L spa close by but I don't want to want an hour for it do drop to 23 C
I have NoChilled for years


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## wide eyed and legless (7/8/18)

I have chilled overnight in the kettle a number of times without any adverse effect but I did recently go to buy some sodium perborate and I asked if they were willing to sell me some cubes, no problem, 20 litre extra heavy duty $7.00. 25 litre extra heavy duty $9.00. Can't grumble at that. Saved me going all the way over to Sunshine west to get them at around the same price.


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## eviltabouleh (7/8/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have chilled overnight in the kettle a number of times without any adverse effect but I did recently go to buy some sodium perborate and I asked if they were willing to sell me some cubes, no problem, 20 litre extra heavy duty $7.00. 25 litre extra heavy duty $9.00. Can't grumble at that. Saved me going all the way over to Sunshine west to get them at around the same price.



I get cubes on sale at Supercheap, no where as good as that but


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## Danscraftbeer (7/8/18)

Leyther said:


> how do you get yours down that last 10C?
> .


*I use an immersion chiller that pumps my rain water tank until it gets low enough for Ale temps easy enough. In colder months the tank water gets as low as 9c so that's good enough to get the wort down to Lager ferment temps. In hotter months it gets down to ~22c so I then connect the tap water that's colder again for the last temp drop that gets me to 18c. 



Leyther said:



Also raises another Q on this subject, is it better to chill your wort to ferment temp i.e. 20C and then pitch or is it better to pitch immediately at a higher temp i.e. 35C and let it cool down to ferment temp? would this perhaps cause some thermal shock to the yeast or would the cooling be gradual enough that this is not an issue?

With yeast lag time those nasties in the air are always going to be present in some form.

Click to expand...

*

*I think its fairly forgiving. Although i think its far better to pitch your yeast at ~30c while cooling down to correct temp then not to pitch the yeast at all. They use the word inoculation with the yeast for it to be the dominant organism growing. Not much else gets much of a chance against a good pitch rate of your chosen yeast. but the yeast should definitely be the first organism introduced to your wort. That is a key point IMO.
Ideally i prefer to start the brew ferment at the lowest of the yeast temp range and end the ferment at the highest of the temp range but! Dry yeasts actually recommend re hydrating at warmer temps like 30c. Danstar does etc. So for the home brewer I think that could be the better way to go to pitch your dry yeast at the higher temp. As long as the yeast has equalized to the temp of your wort. Yeast dont like sudden temp changes it can shock them but the idea to pitch your yeast at 30c while the brew is cooling down to say 18c is the best choice in this scenario. *


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## Danscraftbeer (7/8/18)

malt and barley blues said:


> You don't have to go to far back when wort was put into the fermenter to cool and a tea towel or pillow case was the cover for the fermeter. There was no other choice, never heard of anyone getting infections overnight.



I'm sorry but I laughed out loud at this comment. Check out the Infections Photo Thread. https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/infection-photo-thread.51830/page-52

Like 58 pages, 1034 posts long. This is with brewers using better practices than a towel over the top and letting it cool overnight etc. The infection happens in the first hours. It wont show its nastiness until days maybe weeks later. These infections shown are the end results but they happen a fair bit etc. Maybe a week or two at least after the fact that it got infected in the first stage of the new wort. The first hours in the* danger zone temps between 4 to 40c* when it wasn't inoculated with a good yeast pitch rate etc.

Edit:
Cant break the basic rules of food safety. Beer needs to get down to cool enough to pitch the yeast safely so the yeast is the first microbe to get set loose in your fresh sweet wort. Also in highly dominant numbers too. Check correct pitch rates of your yeast. Over pitch is better than underpitch.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (7/8/18)

I have got infections with chill in kettle/ FV.

HDPE cubes are cheap and effective at protecting hot wort until it gets to pitch temps.


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## wide eyed and legless (8/8/18)

eviltabouleh said:


> I get cubes on sale at Supercheap, no where as good as that but


Where do you live? The chemical factory I bought the cubes from are in Scoresby.


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## eviltabouleh (8/8/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Where do you live? The chemical factory I bought the cubes from are in Scoresby.


I'm in Newcastle but I'm good just bought a new one the week before last


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## mongey (8/8/18)

so looks like the answer is maybe ?

lol

so are the bunnings cubes linked to in OP ok for hot wort or should I be looking for something different ?


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## Rocker1986 (8/8/18)

I just put a batch into a 25L Bunnings cube last brew day. I haven't pitched it yet but it's next into the fermenter. Others have used them without issue though so I'm not expecting any problems.


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## Black Devil Dog (8/8/18)

I definitely wouldn't let the wort cool in the fermenter or kettle. Asking for trouble if you do.

Why not ferment in a cube?

Buy a 25 litre cube/jerry can and transfer your hot wort into that, then seal it up and let it cool without any risk of infection. Once it's cooled to fermentation temperature, pitch your yeast.

Some sort of aeration would be a good idea also.

I've never done it myself, but plenty of others have. Just need to set up a blow off tube to let the krausen escape in an orderly fashion.


Edit: Just clicked on your link. That's precisely what you can use.


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## Leyther (8/8/18)

Why would a cube be any different from a sealed fermentor apart from maybe smaller headspace? especially if the fermentor has been fully sanitized?


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## Black Devil Dog (8/8/18)

Being able to easily squeeze all the air out of the cube would be the main difference and benefit. 

Also as the hot wort cools it's likely to try and suck air in, a cube can be sealed air tight, not sure about a drum/ fermenter though.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (8/8/18)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Being able to easily squeeze all the air out of the cube would be the main difference and benefit.
> 
> Also as the hot wort cools it's likely to try and suck air in, a cube can be sealed air tight, not sure about a drum/ fermenter though.



This is what I found. The cooling FV sucked in air , nearly deforming itself in the process. Yet another drainpour.

You can manage the headspace effectively in a cube, and they are cheaper and more portable than FV buckets.


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## MHB (8/8/18)

Couple of things to think about -
Bugs have been mentioned a couple of times already but lets think about one common beer spoilage organism Lactobacillus. Most of us heat our mash to over 70oC (personally to nearly 80oC) yet the expended grain will pong a beauty in 24 hours, shows there is plenty of lacto surviving even 80oC. Any gets into your wort and it will be quite happy spoiling your beer from 80oC on down until the beer is ruined. So sealing up your wort hot enough to kill bugs and not unsealing it until you are ready to pitch yeast is a good idea.
Good to remember hat most bacteria reproduce about 6 times faster than yeast, a very small count can get real big real fast!

Oxygen is only good for a wort during that very short time between aerating and pitching, where the yeast will take it up in less than half an hour. Fermenters tend to have much more head space than "cubes" so you will get more O2 uptake by the wort. That assumes you can really seal up a fermenter which I doubt, so as it cools air will be drawn in (hopefully sterile air but don't count on it)
Oxygen harms beer, especially highly hopped beers that are all the rage. It also contributes to staling in other ways to. So all steps taken to minimise O2 exposure after the boil are to the good.

No chill has some real advantages, but spend the small amount of dollars to do it properly. Or invest in the ability to chill your wort down to pitching temperatures quickly. Either way, it will probably wont cost you much more than one lost wort and nothing repays the lost time or the angst induced by tipping what could have been one of your finest.
Mark


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## Leyther (8/8/18)

MHB said:


> Couple of things to think about -
> Bugs have been mentioned a couple of times already but lets think about one common beer spoilage organism Lactobacillus. Most of us heat our mash to over 70oC (personally to nearly 80oC) yet the expended grain will pong a beauty in 24 hours, shows there is plenty of lacto surviving even 80oC. Any gets into your wort and it will be quite happy spoiling your beer from 80oC on down until the beer is ruined. So sealing up your wort hot enough to kill bugs and not unsealing it until you are ready to pitch yeast is a good idea.
> Good to remember hat most bacteria reproduce about 6 times faster than yeast, a very small count can get real big real fast!
> 
> ...


Mark,

Can you explain what 'doing it properly' entails? I've never done a hot cube but I'm keen to give it a try.

Cheers


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (8/8/18)

Leyther said:


> Mark,
> 
> Can you explain what 'doing it properly' entails? I've never done a hot cube but I'm keen to give it a try.
> 
> Cheers



Plenty of articles out there, but the basic idea is that you match your cube size to your typical output. 

You transfer your hot wort from your kettle tap into the cube via a funnel, or if your kettle has a barb fitting you can do it with a length of silicone tubing (highly recommend).

You CAN siphon it if desperate, but just don’t do that please.

You will aim to completely fill the cube. Compress the cube to drive out any remaining headspace, attach the lid and screw tight.

Knock the cube on its side and rotate it a few times to ensure the interior surface gets direct heat from the hot wort, so it is fully pasteurised. 

Leave the cube alone until it gets down to pitching temps, usually 24-48 hours depending on ambient and beer style.

If pitching a lager, the cube might need some help getting down to your desired pitching temp, plan accordingly.

Pour cube contents into FV, leaving any sediment behind.

Clean cubes immediately and store them sealed with a star san solution until next use


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## MHB (8/8/18)

Make sure the cube is completely filled, good idea to match batch size and cube. Might involve arranging for it to sit up at an angle - be safe - arrange something secure.
Squeeze all the air you can out, get the lid on quickly.
Lay it on its side for around half an hour so the "complicated" shapes (handle, around the lid, the lid...) are all soaked in very hot wort, flip it on its other side for a while - just make sure all the surfaces exposed to heat and time.
Leave it alone at least overnight, sterilising is achieved by both time and temperature.
When cool store in a cool dark place until ready to pitch the yeast.
Don't spill any on yourself it hurts, sugary wort burns much more than water. Gloves are good.
Mark


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## MHB (8/8/18)

ΣOfAllBeers types faster, pretty much covered same points - hint!
M


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## Rocker1986 (9/8/18)

Yup, those things are all pretty much what I do with my cubes. It's easy and I can store the wort for as long or short as I like/need to before pitching it. That's one of the things I like most about no-chilling - I can brew whenever and ferment it whenever, there's no rush or need to get the yeast pitched as soon as it cools down. I will concede that it does have its limitations in terms of big hoppy ales (although there are work arounds like cube hopping that I've found work pretty well), but if you are going down the no-chill route, I would agree with getting a cube(s) and doing it properly rather than risking infection leaving it to cool in the fermenter.


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## mongey (9/8/18)

ok. I'll cube the damn thing. thanks all 

how long does it take ot cool anyway in a sealed cube ? Id like to brew Saturday and put on Sunday . 24 hours enough ? can put it in my brew fridge to hurry it along if need be


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## Mat B (9/8/18)

mongey said:


> ok. I'll cube the damn thing. thanks all
> 
> how long does it take ot cool anyway in a sealed cube ? Id like to brew Saturday and put on Sunday . 24 hours enough ? can put it in my brew fridge to hurry it along if need be





mongey said:


> ok. I'll cube the damn thing. thanks all
> 
> how long does it take ot cool anyway in a sealed cube ? Id like to brew Saturday and put on Sunday . 24 hours enough ? can put it in my brew fridge to hurry it along if need be


Yep & yep. In this weather (Melbourne) I would say 24 hours is plenty. Might even get too cold.


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## Rocker1986 (9/8/18)

Yeah usually 24 hours or so they're pretty much at room temp. I usually stick them in the brew fridge for a few hours before pitching depending on the time of year and what the wort is, e.g. for ales now I don't bother because they're already sitting at around 20 degrees. By contrast, in summer with lagers I might have to chill them overnight to get them down to ferment/pitching temp.


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## Markbeer (12/8/18)

I only ever cool in fermenters. Cleaned and sanitised, pitch next morning with big active starter. Beer going in hot heats the fermenter up as well.

No issues. I have beers that are over 5 years old, still great.

I planned on using HEPA filters to filter out the bugs when cooling with the air being sucked in, but no infections have made me not worry.

My fermentations kick off kick, Krausen in a few hours. I remember when I just used to add yeast, no starter, would really take a day to get going. This IMO is worse just as risky to me as cooling in a fermenter.


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## mongey (13/8/18)

FWIW

to finish the thread I cubed. seemed to go fine . had a bunch of beer in me by the time I got to cubing,so may have been a little loose . I did flip the cube around on its sides to coat the inside but def not for half hour . thing was hot. took over 24 hours to get down and I still pitched a few degrees warmer than usual to get it done

was bubbling away 12 hours later so I made some kinda all grain beer . we'll see how it comes out

thanks all for the tips


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## Rocker1986 (13/8/18)

I wouldn't think a lag time between pitching and krausen is worse than cooling wort in the fermenter. Even though you can't see anything on the surface, the little guys are still busy multiplying and dominating the brew.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/8/18)

Leyther said:


> Why would a cube be any different from a sealed fermentor apart from maybe smaller headspace? especially if the fermentor has been fully sanitized?


The fermenter seals are not airtight, the closest retailer to you for jerry cans and cubes is The Plastic man, add about 3 litres to the volume 20 litre should hold 23 litres, 25 litre about 28 litres. If you go for the 25 litre cubes that should be sufficient, leaving plenty of head space, if you are pitching yeast the next day that will be fine.
https://www.theplasticman.com.au/collections/drums-jerry-cans


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