# RecipeDB - Young's special london ale clone attempt



## manticle (11/5/10)

Young's special london ale clone attempt  Ale - English Strong (Extra Special) B  All Grain                      Brewer's Notes [email protected] for 90 minutes. Final attenuation closer to 1012 and IBU from my software is around mid 30s. Bitterness is nice and balanced regardless.Biscuit should be used in place of vienna (not available from drop down menu). Used simpson's marris otter (again not in drop down). Caramelise 2 L of total preboil wort down to 300 mL or so and add back to boil. Dry hopped with 10g each of target and EKG in secondary for 7 days, so ready young (yes there's a pun there). Should have a hint of warm alcohol and a hint of mandarins and mint. Original recipe is a tweaked version of Screwy's Young special (special london is a bottled, bottle conditioned, stronger brew than Young's special which is a draught beer)First play with water additions so: Mash: 2g calcium sulfate, 2g Calcium Chloride Boil: 2g Calcium sulfate, 2g Calcium Chloride No idea why frog's bladders are in the db drop down menu but calcium sulphate isn't.Check your water and mash pH before making your own additions but aim for a balance between sulphate and chloride.Worthy of note: London Ale III tends to ferment like a bitch at the beginning (good for top cropping) then slow right down. Might need some encouragement to finish. The 3 times I've used this yeast, it's dropped from 1060 odd to 1020 in a week or less then taken another week or two to drop to FG. Cloudy in the bottle despite CC and gelatine but a few more weeks and she starts to brighten slowly   Malt & Fermentables    % KG Fermentable      5.5 kg Bairds Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt    0.5 kg JWM Crystal 140    0.25 kg Weyermann Vienna       Hops    Time Grams Variety Form AA      25 g Goldings, East Kent (Pellet, 5.0AA%, 60mins)    25 g Fuggles (Pellet, 4.5AA%, 60mins)    20 g Goldings, East Kent (Pellet, 5.0AA%, 10mins)    10 g Target (Pellet, 11.0AA%, 10mins)       Yeast     3000 ml Wyeast Labs 1318 - London Ale III       Misc     0.5 tablet Whirfloc         22L Batch Size    Brew Details   Original Gravity 1.063 (calc)   Final Gravity 1.017 (calc)   Bitterness 33.3 IBU   Efficiency 70%   Alcohol 5.98%   Colour 23 EBC   Batch Size 22L     Fermentation   Primary 14 days   Secondary 10 days   Conditioning 4 days


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## A3k (11/5/10)

Hi Manticle,
What'd you think of your clone? 
How did the colour compare. I thought it was lighter than the recipe showed, but i'm not sure how correct the recipe DB is. Not that this is the most improtant thing.

Good timing as i tried this beer last night and enjoyed it. I looked into the beer last night, but couldn't find much on AHB for it.

Cheers
Al


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## manticle (11/5/10)

Colour is very similar. Mine on early tastings is much cloudier but seems to be clearing slowly. Great meringue like head too.

Similar flavours (mandarins and mint as mentioned) but presuming Young's uses different proportions as the flavour is similar but different. Theirs has a bit more christmas cake. I have done a side by side and noticed a difference but very much enjoyed both.


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## A3k (11/5/10)

I reckon I'll add this to my growing To Brew List.

Cheers,
Al


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## jayse (11/5/10)

Good notes in your brewers notes section in the recipe, one thing you can do (and I thing everyone could do) is when you post your recipe in the recipeDB go straight to the thread for it (as soon as you post the recipeDB I gather a thread comes up)in the forum and hit edit on your first post and post the recipe and your notes in that first post.
That way you have the recipe and notes in the thread as well. 

Just a idea.

At a glance I can't fault that recipe and in fact I wouldn't mind a half dozen pints, cheers B)


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## michaelcocks (11/5/10)

RecipeDB said:


> This is the discussion topic for the recipe: Young's special london ale clone attempt


Hey manticle great recipe
just a quick question ... Why is youngs special London ale listed as an American ale
when both your recipe and the original are English?


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## manticle (11/5/10)

Woopsie.

Should be ESB.

Rectified


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## manticle (25/1/11)

Just brewed this again with 1469.

House ale for sure - only just starting to carb in the bottle but delicious. Needs good bulk cold conditionig time to be drunk this young.

Hope to stick a bottle in beerfest and see how she fares.


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## cpsmusic (25/1/11)

I don't understand the hop additions for this recipe:

25 g	Goldings, East Kent (Pellets, 5.0 AA%, 60 mins)	
25 g	Fuggles (Pellets, 4.8 AA%, 60 mins)	
10 g	Goldings, East Kent (Pellets, 5.0 AA%, 60 mins)	
20 g	Goldings, East Kent (Pellets, 5.0 AA%, 10 mins)	
10 g	Target (Pellets, 9.4 AA%, 10 mins)	
20 g	Target (Pellets, 9.4 AA%, 10 mins)

Why are some hops listed twice at the same time?

Cheers,

Chris


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## Screwtop (25/1/11)

cpsmusic said:


> I don't understand the hop additions for this recipe:
> 
> 25 g	Goldings, East Kent (Pellets, 5.0 AA%, 60 mins)
> 25 g	Fuggles (Pellets, 4.8 AA%, 60 mins)
> ...




Not sure! I can vouch for this beer, tried one of Andrews and can say it's one of the best homebrewed UK bitters I've ever tried!

Cheers,

Screwy


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## manticle (25/1/11)

cpsmusic said:


> I don't understand the hop additions for this recipe:
> 
> 20 g Goldings, East Kent (Pellets, 5.0 AA%, 10 mins)
> 10 g Target (Pellets, 9.4 AA%, 10 mins)
> ...



Sorry mate. It is a bit unclear and I've edited it to be a bit clearer. The last addition is meant to be a dry hop addition - dry hopping is not available from the database drop down menu for some inexplicable reason.

Dry hopping should actually be 1g of target per litre and 1g of EKG per litre. I should have written 0 minutes with an explanation - just an error on my part (probably due to frustration with the recipe db)

Thanks for the kind words Screwy. Will send a bottle of the current version when it's a bit more carbed.

In keeping with Jayse's suggetsion above which is a good one:

[email protected] for 90 minutes. Final attenuation closer to 1012 and IBU from my software is around mid 30s. Bitterness is nice and balanced regardless.

Biscuit should be used in place of vienna (not available from drop down menu). Used simpson's marris otter (again not in drop down). Caramelise 2 L of total preboil wort down to 300 mL or so and add back to boil. Dry hopped with 10g each of target and EKG in secondary for 7 days, so ready young (yes there's a pun there). Should have a hint of warm alcohol and a hint of mandarins and mint. Original recipe is a tweaked version of Screwy's Young special (special london is a bottled, bottle conditioned, stronger brew than Young's special which is a draught beer)

First play with water additions so: 

Mash: 2g calcium sulfate, 2g Calcium Chloride 

Boil: 2g Calcium sulfate, 2g Calcium Chloride 

No idea why frog's bladders are in the db drop down menu but calcium sulphate isn't.

Check your water and mash pH before making your own additions but aim for a balance between sulphate and chloride.

Worthy of note: London Ale III tends to ferment like a bitch at the beginning (good for top cropping) then slow right down. Might need some encouragement to finish. The 3 times I've used this yeast, it's dropped from 1060 odd to 1020 in a week or less then taken another week or two to drop to FG. Cloudy in the bottle despite CC and gelatine but a few more weeks and she starts to brighten slowly


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## Bribie G (25/1/11)

I missed this when you posted first time round, I have all that in stock except for Target, I'll sub Progress to the same IBU (i.e about 50% more hops)- and also the malt, I have Bairds Perle. 

I'll make this one tomorrow on London lll - sounds right up my alley. Have to organise a bottle swap later on. 

:beerbang:

Edit: on the malt note, I see that CraftBrewer have gone out of all the Bairds base malts except for Perle and gone nearly all Thomas Fawcett. I suppose that will give better throughput and freshness, but Perle is a lovely malt especially in a golden ale etc - I use it in my Yorkshire Gold nowadays and it makes a strong beer that really hits the same spot as a strong lager on a hot day.

Oops getting off topic. Back to Manticle's thread


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## manticle (25/1/11)

I'll save you one from current batch if you pm your address again.


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## Bribie G (28/1/11)

Brewed this on Aussie Day and pitched this morning - I went for a 24L length to give me an extra litre of wort to breed up a starter. I didn't adjust the ingredients because I'd failed to see that your db recipe was for 22L - However I ended up hitting spot on 1060 when I measured it on pitching at 18 degrees so I'm choofed with that as I still got 80% efficiency which is good for BIAB. 

I haven't been measuring efficiency as a result of a lot of my brews having extra sugaz and adjuncts so it gets a bit complex for my math challenged brain.  so this is a signal to just use AG unless the recipe specifically calls for extras (Some Aussie Clones or USA historical styles for example).

Being a no chiller I cube hopped using the Progress. I was going to use half the foil (45g) in the cube but noticed that the foil was '06 so I tipped the whole foil into the cube - woot - and on tasting this morning there's nothing over the top in the flavour as yet. 

Thanks for the recipe Manticle, been meaning to step up to ESBs for a while - especially after my Wellington trip :icon_drool2:


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## Bizier (28/1/11)

I have been keen for a clone of this for ages (it is the only request I have sent to the BN's CYBI). I will also add this to the list.

Did you use JW crystal?


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## manticle (28/1/11)

JW crystal for the first few attempts, simpsons for the most recent. I've also been playing with various yeasts - the 1469 version is delicious.

Not an exact clone but they rarely are. I prefer the word 'homage'. Young's supposedly use a different yeast to any suggested here which may change thigs too - I can't remember the WYeast PC number of the top of my head (1968??) but being a bottle conditioned beer it could be recultured - something I might try for the next batch.


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## manticle (28/1/11)

manticle said:


> I can't remember the WYeast PC number of the top of my head (1968??)



1768 is youngs, 1968 is Fullers.

http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm#Wyeast


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## mxd (28/1/11)

was this the beer in the xmas in july swap ?


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## manticle (28/1/11)

That's the one but I've dropped the calcium carbonate addition (suggested candidate for some noted astringency).


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## nala (28/1/11)

manticle said:


> 1768 is youngs, 1968 is Fullers.
> 
> http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm#Wyeast



Hello Andrew,
very interesting topic !
I looked for the definition of "clone"....to make an exact copy of.
What is it you were trying to clone ?
The recipe data base clone or something else clone ?
I have a copy of Graham Wheelers' book - British Real Ale, I looked at the recipe for a comparison of the recipe data base for Young's ESB and they bear no similarity.
I find it hard to understand why you want to clone a particular beer and do not use the basic ingredients.
If for example I wanted to make a Christmas cake, I would use that recipe and not one for a Victoria sponge.
I have no doubt what you have brewed is a fantastic beer, why not call it Andy's Tripple A or And'ys AAA, anonymous ale !
To clone a real ale, particular attention should be paid to hop variety and grain used keeping in mind OG and yeast variety.
Perhaps I have missed the point and the exercise is to throw in whatever you feel like and call it a "clone".


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## manticle (28/1/11)

Young's special london ale (bottled version) was the inspiration. As mentioned I would prefer the word homage to clone but can't change it due to editing limits on the site. You'll note though that the db states 'clone attempt' not clone.

My recipe uses the same hops (fuggles, target and EKG) as suggested by youngs on the label and on their website - I don't know the exact amounts and struggled to find much info when I first looked. Their website also suggests marris otter and crystal as used in my recipe. Again the amounts are not specified but I think my Christmas cake is using flour and eggs, sugar and butter just like the original recipe.

I was given a recipe from screwtop for the draught version when I asked here last year for suggestions which I tweaked to suit the statistics of the bottled that I knew (higher abv etc) and my system and efficiency. As suggested also in recent posts, I'd like to try this with the correct young's yeast - it just isn't readily available (WY PC only)

Ended up with a lovely beer that was worth sharing and has some similar characteristics to Youngs (minus the metal I've experienced in the last couple of bottles).

Is Graham Wheeler's recipe from the brewery or is it simply his attempt at a clone? Have you brewed it? How close was it? What differences are there? There is no Young's ESB as far as I know - only special london ale which fits the description of an ESB.

Cheers


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## nala (28/1/11)

manticle said:


> Young's special london ale (bottled version) was the inspiration. As mentionedI would prefer the word homage to clone but can't change it. You'll note though that the db states 'clone attempt' not clone.
> 
> The special london ale uses the same hops (fuggles, target and EKG) as suggested by youngs on the label - I don't know the exact amounts and struggled to find much info when I first looked. Their website also suggests marris otter and crystal as used in this recipe. Again the amounts are not specified but I think my Christmas cake is using flour and eggs, sugar and butter just like the original recipe.
> 
> ...


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## manticle (28/1/11)

From the young's website:


> _Special London Ale is an absolute classic, a winner of many awards. Why? Despite its strength it's sublimely drinkable. The malty richness is countered by huge amounts of hops to create a perfectly balanced, wonderfully aromatic, dry, fruity flavour. This live beer is matured in the bottle for a fuller, fresher flavour. Serve cool, pouring gently to leave the sediment in the bottle.
> 
> 100% malt brew: Maris Otter and crystal malt and a phenomenal amount of Fuggle and Goldings hop. Golding and Target hops are added after fermentation which creates an exciting fresh and hoppy bouquet. Fresh yeast and wort are added at bottling to continue the maturation as a live ale_


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## Bribie G (28/1/11)

I always use the term "attempt" as in "Old Speckled Hen attempt" or "Camerons Strongarm attempt" because to make a true clone the recipe goes something like:

Buy several hectares of land in rural Oxfordshire
Build a Victorian tower brewery
After 130 years add some new coppers
Marry Elizabeth Higgins and thus get a controlling interest in the Brewery
Sign contracts with Kent hop suppliers
Employ Ben Smith and Arnold Wright as brewers
....
....

  

GW's book is a good pointer in the right direction, but as the man himself says the recipes can vary quite significantly within a brewery itself due to differing quality of ingredients in different seasons, availability of hop and grain varieties... and it's to the credit of the brewers that they can crank out a very consistent brew year after year even in the middle of a hop failure shit storm like we had a couple of years ago or the developing grain crisis. :super:


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