# True Marzen Colour Without Crystal?



## iralosavic (3/4/12)

I've just read what Michael Jackson has to say about what composes "the original example of a Marzenbier": "1.052-1.055, 5%+ABV, reddish colour of 33, and a mere 21 units of bitterness."

I cannot figure out how to get such a red colour without adding some crystal malt, but my research reveals that crystal was not traditionally present in this style. As Jackson puts it, this is a style that has suffered considerable erosion of character over the years; many modern interpretations are paler and less complex; they may be pilsner grain dominant, of higher bitterness (25-30IBU), and present notable hop flavour and aroma. 

I really want to give replicating the original style a go, but how those Muncheners achieved it beats me!


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## amiddler (3/4/12)

Decoction to caramelize some of the sugar?? I have not read any of the style guidelines, just saying.


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## eamonnfoley (3/4/12)

Large amounts of vienna malt will do it, and I think that is traditional as the maerzen is related to the Vienna lager.


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## iralosavic (3/4/12)

foles said:


> Large amounts of vienna malt will do it, and I think that is traditional as the maerzen is related to the Vienna lager.



My instinct was to use a higher percentage of Vienna, but Brewmate does not output a high enough EBC even at 100%, so it leaves me confused.


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## mahonya1 (3/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> My instinct was to use a higher percentage of Vienna, but Brewmate does not output a high enough EBC even at 100%, so it leaves me confused.




Use a load of Munich II Malt


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## iralosavic (3/4/12)

Mahony said:


> Use a load of Munich II Malt



Also not possible at 100% to get to 33EBU.


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## argon (3/4/12)

From the guidelines;

I'd go Munich II and decoction



> Ingredients: Grist varies, although German Vienna malt is often the backbone of the grain bill, with some Munich malt, Pils malt, and possibly some crystal malt. All malt should derive from the finest quality two-row barley. Continental hops, especially noble varieties, are most authentic. Somewhat alkaline water (up to 300 PPM), with significant carbonate content is welcome. A decoction mash can help develop the rich malt profile


.


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## iralosavic (3/4/12)

argon said:


> From the guidelines;
> 
> I'd go Munich II and decoction
> 
> .



Grist wise, I'd go with a blend of vienna, munich II and possibly pilsner (in that order), but without crystal, I'm not getting anywhere near 33EBC. Perhaps decoction with some inherent caramelisation will deepen the colour that significantly? I have no experience with decocting as I BIAB, but there's nothing stopping me carrying some runnings to the stovetop if I have to.


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## jyo (3/4/12)

I have a Vienna lager planned so watching this thread with interest. I am planning to try a small addition of carafa I for some extra colour but what about toasting some vienna or munich in the oven to darken it up a bit?

Thoughts?


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## iralosavic (3/4/12)

jyo said:


> I have a Vienna lager planned so watching this thread with interest. I am planning to try a small addition of carafa I for some extra colour but what about toasting some vienna or munich in the oven to darken it up a bit?
> 
> Thoughts?




I think carafa is a good choice to darken a vienna lager. You've got better control/predictability than toasting your own malt. This is another style that you see adulterated with crystal. Quite a few commercial examples I've tasted were far too caramel/toffee to be authentic... I'd go so far as to say they were cloying, given the palate's expectation for only a mild/complex sweetness that is soon forgotten by a dry finish. I have found it difficult to finish some bottles because of this. Thanks to some of the restrictions on the commercial labeling of the Marzen/Oktoberfest style, most (if not all) German brewed examples are predictable and delicious.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/4/12)

jyo said:


> I have a Vienna lager planned so watching this thread with interest. I am planning to try a small addition of carafa I for some extra colour but what about toasting some vienna or munich in the oven to darken it up a bit?
> 
> Thoughts?


Try mine next visit and I will let you have the recipe if you like it.
Nev


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## jyo (3/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> I think carafa is a good choice to darken a vienna lager. You've got better control/predictability than toasting your own malt. This is another style that you see adulterated with crystal. Quite a few commercial examples I've tasted were far too caramel/toffee to be authentic... I'd go so far as to say they were cloying, given the palate's expectation for only a mild/complex sweetness that is soon forgotten by a dry finish. I have found it difficult to finish some bottles because of this. Thanks to some of the restrictions on the commercial labeling of the Marzen/Oktoberfest style, most (if not all) German brewed examples are predictable and delicious.



Cheers, mate.




Gryphon Brewing said:


> Try mine next visit and I will let you have the recipe if you like it.
> Nev



Sounds good, Nev.


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## geoffd (3/4/12)

I dont think crystal malts are appropriate to style. I dont think a Marzen should be as red as a vienna either. The commercial examples make it very confusing, I made a Marzen similar to the HB & Paulener versions & it went very poorly in comp for being too pale, yet both are listed examples.
*

from the AABC guidelines:Comments: 

*Domestic German versions tend to be golden, like a strong Pils-dominated Helles. Export German versions are typically orange-amber in colour, and have a distinctive toasty malt character.


In rectification I went for the export version this is the recipe that won Baysides Octoberfest Comp. Came out a decent coppery colour, sorry tasting notes are blank, I've gotten lazy. the melanoidin & victory malt added good colour without any lingering sweetness, just richness


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## manticle (3/4/12)

Fix and Fix suggest both light and dark German crystal is entirely appropriate for the style . They also suggest that the quality of some Vienna and munich malts is made from inferior malted barley, even from companies that make superior quality two row pilsner.

This was in 1991 so who knows what has changed in malting quality now? Whether the crystals were considered 'replacements' for munich or vienna, I'm not sure but some of their discussion seems to indicate this. I find wey vienna and munich to be great and this is what I would use. JW not so much.

They also suggest Vienna lager was a scaled down relative (even version) of the Barvarian festbiers (marzen/oktoberfest).

One version of vienna they list in the book (based on the development of Vienna lager in mexico) has a small portion of black/roast malt added 45 minutes into the sacch rest and rested for 15 minutes.


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

Father Jack said:


> I dont think crystal malts are appropriate to style. I dont think a Marzen should be as red as a vienna either. The commercial examples make it very confusing, I made a Marzen similar to the HB & Paulener versions & it went very poorly in comp for being too pale, yet both are listed examples.
> *
> 
> from the AABC guidelines:Comments:
> ...



Thanks for sharing your recipe, mate - and well done! Like MJ says, Marzen is a style that has undergone some mutation over time, even within Germany itself. Their alcohol strength to style regulations have been responsible for segregating many styles and can be viewed as both a good thing (introducing more variety) and a bad thing (original styles losing authenticity or availability).

The style I enjoy the most is the Export version, like you describe and like you can still find from Paulaner, Hofbrau and Lowenbrau to a lesser extent. I find them to be a perfect balance between complexity and dryness/sessionability.

Just wondering, what is your view on the style benefiting from moderate to highly alkaline water (~300ppm)? I see you did use some chalk, although your total effective alkalinity (not including acidulated malt) would be ~100ppm or less at a guess.



Cheers


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

manticle said:


> Fix and Fix suggest both light and dark German crystal is entirely appropriate for the style . They also suggest that the quality of some Vienna and munich malts is made from inferior malted barley, even from companies that make superior quality two row pilsner.
> 
> This was in 1991 so who knows what has changed in malting quality now? Whether the crystals were considered 'replacements' for munich or vienna, I'm not sure but some of their discussion seems to indicate this. I find wey vienna and munich to be great and this is what I would use. JW not so much.
> 
> ...



There seems to be a bit of a divided mind on the crystal front. I think the most important thing is that there should be very little or no flavours imparted by the crystal. It should be used for depth/richness/colour only. Too many breweries have butchered Vienna Lagers/Marzens with excessive crystal, making them imbalanced and too sweet to enjoy as a lager should be - in sessionable quantities!


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## MHB (4/4/12)

Vienna 85% and Melanoidin 15% would get you there, Kunze suggests 5-25% as a working range so should be fine and probably more like the traditional Marzen you are looking for I suspect that the older versions of Vienna were a bit darker than todays offerings. As mentioned above a triple decoction is going to add a bit of colour.
Mark


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## geoffd (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> Just wondering, what is your view on the style benefiting from moderate to highly alkaline water (~300ppm)? I see you did use some chalk, although your total effective alkalinity (not including acidulated malt) would be ~100ppm or less at a guess.
> 
> Cheers




I used salts in this recipe purely for calcium, used carbonate with chloride not to have too much chloride. picked calcium carbonate over calcium sulphate as it's a malt driven beer, carbonate accentuates malt, sulphate accentuates hops (you probably knew that so sorry if I'm being too simplistic with you)

I could also have split over CaCl, CaCo3 & CaSO4 to minimise all the salt impacts & get reasonable calcium.
I guessed the Ph adjustment with the ammount of acidulated malt, overshot it just a fraction & rectified by diluting.

I'm not a big fan of being sytlistically accurate with german water as it's heavily mineralised & takes away from the drinkability of the beer, Dortmunder being a good example, try a DAB next to a Polish Brok similar beer styles, you'll probably notice the Brok is a lot smoother & rounder malty flavour, I prefer this over being stylistically accurate.

This is also why I dont bother to make german pils, why waste a brew day on a mineralised sharper beer when you can make a Brok or a rich but soft Czech pilsner (lots of vienna as opposed to the pils dominated versions)
Thats just what I do, some people will prefer the drier crisp finish in the minerally water.


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## RdeVjun (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> Grist wise, I'd go with a blend of vienna, munich II and possibly pilsner (in that order), but without crystal, I'm not getting anywhere near 33EBC. Perhaps decoction with some inherent caramelisation will deepen the colour that significantly? I have no experience with decocting as I BIAB, but there's nothing stopping me carrying some runnings to the stovetop if I have to.


Yes, decoction will indeed add colour, couldn't tell you how much per step or at what rate, while everyone seems to do it just a little bit differently! Give it a go is my advice, that grain looks all right to start trying it, maybe even drop it to two or even one base malt. FWIW, I do a 100% FM BPils Munich Helles which has done very well at State comp level two years running, I realise Vienna Lager is just a little bit more complex due to this colour issue but the point is 100% base malt and decoction has rocked my world, for you might be worthwhile with 100% Vienna or even Munich II.
BIAB and decoction go together just as well as other methods, however I've found it is worthwhile leaving a goodly bit of room for extra boiling water infusion(s) to adjust temperature after each step, so mash in much thicker than you normally would for stock BIAB, particularly if your kettle is usually full at mashing and you'll appreciate that extra head room.


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

Father Jack said:


> I used salts in this recipe purely for calcium, used carbonate with chloride not to have too much chloride. picked calcium carbonate over calcium sulphate as it's a malt driven beer, carbonate accentuates malt, sulphate accentuates hops (you probably knew that so sorry if I'm being too simplistic with you)
> 
> I could also have split over CaCl, CaCo3 & CaSO4 to minimise all the salt impacts & get reasonable calcium.
> I guessed the Ph adjustment with the ammount of acidulated malt, overshot it just a fraction & rectified by diluting.
> ...



Thanks for explaining. I actually really like DAB, but I've never tried a true Pol Brok - what is a good example of the style available locally?


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

RdeVjun said:


> Yes, decoction will indeed add colour, couldn't tell you how much per step or at what rate, while everyone seems to do it just a little bit differently! Give it a go is my advice, that grain looks all right to start trying it, maybe even drop it to two or even one base malt. FWIW, I do a 100% FM BPils Munich Helles which has done very well at State comp level two years running, I realise Vienna Lager is just a little bit more complex due to this colour issue but the point is 100% base malt and decoction has rocked my world, for you might be worthwhile with 100% Vienna or even Munich II.
> BIAB and decoction go together just as well as other methods, however I've found it is worthwhile leaving a goodly bit of room for extra boiling water infusion(s) to adjust temperature after each step, so mash in much thicker than you normally would for stock BIAB, particularly if your kettle is usually full at mashing and you'll appreciate that extra head room.



You know what? I think I might just give decocting a go. It just seems like the best way to achieve the intensity of colour without sacrificing authenticity of style - in fact, I guess it would be difficult to replicate a real Marzen without decocting.

I don't see BIAB decotion as any more of a challenge than 3v decoction, my biggest obstacle is the lack of a second vessle big enough. I have a 9L Chef Inox stock pot, but using the typical 1/3 total mash volume would mean 7L and a lot of boiling over. I just haven't been able to justify buying a 20L pot (and I'm concerned that a single ply, thin-walled pot like what you get from BigW will result in excessive scorching.

I just want to double check something... my understanding is that the 1/3 formula is based on 3v systems that reserve a percentage of water for sparging, therefore the runnings taken to decoct would be a lot thicker than if you took 1/3 of a full volume BIAB mash (like you said), so I would be inclined to base the volume taken on the recipe being ran through a 3v system and then adjust temperatures accordingly.

I figure I'd take the guess work out of balancing mash/sparge volumes and temperature ramps and simply apply heat while stirring the decotion in until the next rest temperature is achieved.


Maybe I will try a BigW pot hmmm


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## RdeVjun (4/4/12)

Yeah, spot on, until you lift the bag you can just about forget that its a BIAB and treat it much more as though it is a conventional mash. B)
One tip I might add is you can also drain the decoct by pulling it out with a sieve, then add a little liquor back into it once it is in the decoction pot to get it submerging again, that gives you control over the thickness. However, IMO there's nothing wrong with the standard thick and thin decoction approaches with a jug. 
Oh, and I don't think we linked to Kai's excellent resources earlier.
Really, the 19L big double ewe pots are fine, provided you don't pump a zillion BTU into it, just stir pretty much continuously from the start and while it comes up to the boil, then once boiling it should circulate itself through convection. However, you may get by with the 9L one, the decoction boil isn't fierce and you'll be there stirring it anyway- I would give it a go first.
Another tool that you may wish consider for colour adjustment is caramelising some wort, again I am not sure how much adjustment could be gained, but may be worthwhile considering. The flavour changing aspect may be unwelcome though, but there's no need to go all the way to toffee with it. Probably not useful for a Vienna Lager, but thought I'd mention it.
Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/4/12)

@iroslavic - look in my sig.

2 x big w are doable on the stove. I did BIAB full volume using 2 pots on the stove, and now I have a bucket in bucket lauter and use a 25L esky as a mash tun.

Goomba


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## geoffd (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> Thanks for explaining. I actually really like DAB, but I've never tried a true Pol Brok - what is a good example of the style available locally?




Hi Iralosavic, you've picked me up wrong: Brok is a brand not a style, it is imported, no locally brewed version, If you cant find it, perhaps ask a good bottleo if they are willing to get a case in (even if you have to buy the whole case), generally retails at 4.50-5.50 for a 500ml bottle. Just be mindful of date, I bought some recently in an IGA store & it was in pretty poor condition (oxidised). If you live in Melbourne I'll happily go halves with you on a case, if we're near enough to meet up, or have common contacts through brew clubs.


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

Father Jack said:


> Hi Iralosavic, you've picked me up wrong: Brok is a brand not a style, it is imported, no locally brewed version, If you cant find it, perhaps ask a good bottleo if they are willing to get a case in (even if you have to buy the whole case), generally retails at 4.50-5.50 for a 500ml bottle. Just be mindful of date, I bought some recently in an IGA store & it was in pretty poor condition (oxidised). If you live in Melbourne I'll happily go halves with you on a case, if we're near enough to meet up, or have common contacts through brew clubs.




http://danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_912039/brok-sambor-500ml - Looks like my local has it in stock, if this is what you're referring to? I'm curious now! I like DAB, but you're right about it having some mineral sharpness, which I don't feel ruins the beer, but takes it down from 10/10 a point or so.


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> @iroslavic - look in my sig.
> 
> 2 x big w are doable on the stove. I did BIAB full volume using 2 pots on the stove, and now I have a bucket in bucket lauter and use a 25L esky as a mash tun.
> 
> Goomba



I've seen your thead about that before hehe I only need one pot for decocting - the rest of the mash/sparge/boil process can occur in my keggle as usual. It's good to see the BigW pot holding up well though - instills some confidence. 

I will see how I go with the 2L headspace in my Chef Inox pot first. Cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> I've seen your thead about that before hehe I only need one pot for decocting - the rest of the mash/sparge/boil process can occur in my keggle as usual. It's good to see the BigW pot holding up well though - instills some confidence.
> 
> I will see how I go with the 2L headspace in my Chef Inox pot first. Cheers



No worries. I was more going alone the lines of "well, if you have to buy a 20L pot for decocting, it won't be a complete waste".

I've a 9L pasta pot, and should (when) I concoct (Probably doing a Vienna Lager in the near future), I'll use that.

Goomba


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## Bribie G (4/4/12)

MHB said:


> Vienna 85% and Melanoidin 15% would get you there, Kunze suggests 5-25% as a working range so should be fine and probably more like the traditional Marzen you are looking for *I suspect that the older versions of Vienna were a bit darker than todays offerings*. As mentioned above a triple decoction is going to add a bit of colour.
> Mark


Here's my Maltbomb which is 3/4 Vienna and 1/4 Munich 1 mixed with a tad of Melanoiden (200g) 
I dragged this out of the tap a bit early (only kegged last Thursday - apologies ) but Mark's right about the colour of Vienna. 





I'm surprised he didn't mention Briess Ultra Black, it's a bit like an instant coffee powder version of Sinamar, got some from Marks' last year and it's the dux for colouring up anything with negligible flavour contribution.

EDIT:




There you go, and I even drank it


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## geoffd (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> http://danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_912039/brok-sambor-500ml - Looks like my local has it in stock, if this is what you're referring to? I'm curious now! I like DAB, but you're right about it having some mineral sharpness, which I don't feel ruins the beer, but takes it down from 10/10 a point or so.



that's the stuff, great find with the price, who in gods name would buy VB ior the likes when you can bet this for $3 for a 500ml bottle (by the case price), thats an exceptionally good price.


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## Bribie G (4/4/12)

Brok is weak piss of the horses for the ignorant sister shagging peasants. True Poles drink Zywiec and can pronounce the name as well B)


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## NickB (4/4/12)

So are you a Pole, or do you like poles Michael?






h34r:


Or maybe just a dirty Lager-Loving-Pommy-Man


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## Bribie G (4/4/12)

The Poles are one of those fortunate races that, if you get a room full of them at random, most of them are really good looking (As opposed to a trip to the Morayfield Shopping Centre for example)

Thus it was with Monika.

Who didn't even have a Z or a W in her name :huh:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/4/12)

BROK is rubbish. Zwyiec is way better, and I am partial to a bit of Kozel (though it isn't Polish).


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## manticle (4/4/12)

I like all three.


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

I don't mind the Zywiec lager; it's smooth and inoffensive, but I feel it is lacking that something that sets it apart from the others. Their porter is one of my favourite dark beers though!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> I don't mind the Zywiec lager; it's smooth and inoffensive, but I feel it is lacking that something that sets it apart from the others. Their porter is one of my favourite dark beers though!



+1. Love Zwyiec Porter and for a 9% beer to be $20/6er is great value.

Goomba


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## geoffd (4/4/12)

try Ocokim porter, it's extremly good, and cheap.

I prefer Brok as i find Zwyiec too dry, kozel (Czech for mountain goat) is nice too, I'm not a huge fan of Kozel Dark though, Kruscovice Black is much nicer, for my taste buds at least, each to their own.


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## manticle (4/4/12)

Way OT sorry

FJ - have you been to Koliba on Johnston St collingwood for massive snitzels and 1 L glasses of draught Kruscovice and budvar (or 500 mL or 250 mL but seeing as though you offered me a glass of young, uncarbonated ESB at about 7.30 on a sunday morning, I can't imagine 250 mL is on your radar)?

Well worth a visit. Will tide me over till I can actually get to eastern Europe.

http://www.bestrestaurants.com.au/restaura...restaurant.aspx


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## geoffd (4/4/12)

manticle said:


> Way OT sorry
> 
> FJ - have you been to Koliba on Johnston St collingwood for massive snitzels and 1 L glasses of draught Kruscovice and budvar (or 500 mL or 250 mL but seeing as though you offered me a glass of young, uncarbonated ESB at about 7.30 on a sunday morning, I can't imagine 250 mL is on your radar)?
> 
> ...




but it was 8:30pm Irish time, my body clock is just strugling with the change over.

Looks interesting, The Czech national dish is pork & dumplings, the Slovak national dish is pork & dumplings, makes you wonder why they ever split Czechoslvakia up. Is it restaurant only or can you go in just for the beer?


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## black_labb (4/4/12)

Father Jack said:


> I used salts in this recipe purely for calcium, used carbonate with chloride not to have too much chloride. picked calcium carbonate over calcium sulphate as it's a malt driven beer, carbonate accentuates malt, sulphate accentuates hops (you probably knew that so sorry if I'm being too simplistic with you)
> 
> I could also have split over CaCl, CaCo3 & CaSO4 to minimise all the salt impacts & get reasonable calcium.
> I guessed the Ph adjustment with the ammount of acidulated malt, overshot it just a fraction & rectified by diluting.
> ...




I'm fairly certain chlorides are responsible for the malt flavours, sulfates will exentuate bitterness. Carbonates are good for hardening the water for when you want to do a dark beer without the ph dropping too low in the mash. Calcium is important for an efficient mash 

Just want to make sure people aren't getting the wrong information


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/4/12)

jyo said:


> Cheers, mate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :icon_offtopic: Jyo, Here is my Vienna, still cloudy but its only been kegged a few weeks.
Nev


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## iralosavic (4/4/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> :icon_offtopic: Jyo, Here is my Vienna, still cloudy but its only been kegged a few weeks.
> Nev
> View attachment 53513



What a beautiful colour.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> What a beautiful colour.


Tastes good too  Malty but dry and still a bit bitter for style but that will drop off as it matures.
I will be brewing more of this one.
Nev


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## jyo (4/4/12)

That looks ok..... I guess.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> What a beautiful colour.


 :icon_offtopic: You asked for it you got it.
Hope you make it one day.
Nevs Vienna
Vienna 75.3%
Pils 8.9%
Cara Red 1.4%
Cara Helle 8.9%
Acidulated 5.5 %

32L @ 25 IBU
Styrian Golding 19.8 IBU @ 60 min
CZ Saaz 5.4 IBU @ 20 min
CZ Saaz 45gm after flame out.
Wyeast 2308, its made for this beer !
Ferment very low to start 6C , let it warm up slowly as you reach the end of ferment.
The rest of the recipe will depend on your brewing systems.
Nev


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## iralosavic (5/4/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> :icon_offtopic: You asked for it you got it.
> Hope you make it one day.
> Nevs Vienna
> Vienna 75.3%
> ...




Thanks for that. Interesting! Goldings and Saaz in the same beer mmm :icon_drool2: I wonder how you would manage the flameout addition in a no/slow-chill system? Half at flameout, half dry hopped?


6c woah. I usually ferment lagers at 10-12c. Do you find this process responsible for any particular taste changes?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> Thanks for that. Interesting! Goldings and Saaz in the same beer mmm :icon_drool2: I wonder how you would manage the flameout addition in a no/slow-chill system? Half at flameout, half dry hopped?
> 
> 
> 6c woah. I usually ferment lagers at 10-12c. Do you find this process responsible for any particular taste changes?


Styrian Goldings (not UK Goldings) were typically used in Marzen/Octo and Vienna styles back went these styles were popular. You could add late kettle additions when you turn off heat, not really a problem but you will lose some aroma by no chilling, Saaz is not a good dry hopping option, it gets all grassy.. 10c will be fine but the lower you get the less ferment by products you will get = cleaner finish.
Nev


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## iralosavic (5/4/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Styrian Goldings (not UK Goldings) were typically used in Marzen/Octo and Vienna styles back went these styles were popular. You could add late kettle additions when you turn off heat, not really a problem but you will lose some aroma by no chilling, Saaz is not a good dry hopping option, it gets all grassy.. 10c will be fine but the lower you get the less ferment by products you will get = cleaner finish.
> Nev



I love styrian goldings 

Just wondering about the acid malt. I've never used it before - I've just managed mash ph with salts (because my water is devoid of minerals anyway). How do you go about calculating the quantity? And if you removed it from your grist, how would you compensate?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> I love styrian goldings
> 
> Just wondering about the acid malt. I've never used it before - I've just managed mash ph with salts (because my water is devoid of minerals anyway). How do you go about calculating the quantity? And if you removed it from your grist, how would you compensate?


If your pH is fine then replace with the Pils. Perth water is a bit base ~8pH so I use about 5% acid malt which gives me 5-2 to 5-4 ph mash.
Nev


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## iralosavic (5/4/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> If your pH is fine then replace with the Pils. Perth water is a bit base ~8pH so I use about 5% acid malt which gives me 5-2 to 5-4 ph mash.
> Nev



Ahhh ok. Yeah my water is spot on neutral, so whatever salts I need to get calcium up is usually enough for paler beers.

What mash format/temp do you use for this one?


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## manticle (5/4/12)

Father Jack said:


> but it was 8:30pm Irish time, my body clock is just strugling with the change over.
> 
> Looks interesting, The Czech national dish is pork & dumplings, the Slovak national dish is pork & dumplings, makes you wonder why they ever split Czechoslvakia up. Is it restaurant only or can you go in just for the beer?



I think it's restaurant and bar but not sure. The food is great though - just don't fool yourself into thinking your stomach can hold 3 courses.

Iralosavic: Duvel uses styrians and saaz from memory (as does a couple of my Belgians, including my duvel homage).

Lovely combo.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/4/12)

iralosavic said:


> Ahhh ok. Yeah my water is spot on neutral, so whatever salts I need to get calcium up is usually enough for paler beers.
> 
> What mash format/temp do you use for this one?


This one is done on the Herms coil HX.
55c for 15min
63 for 30
72 for 20
Mash out 77.
Nev


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