# Bittering Vs Flavour



## UsernameTaken (11/5/18)

I get that in the boil you extract bitterness and kill flavour.

Then at flame out you get the flavours but are still also getting bitterness above 85c.

So my question is are you still getting the same amount and quality of flavour between 99c and 85c that you would get below 85c?

Cheers,
UNT


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## MHB (11/5/18)

NO!
You cant think in terms of On/Off in brewing
You could mash a beer at 20oC all the enzymes are active at 20oC just very slowly, it would just take about 2 weeks and be ruinously infected by then.
Even at ambient some Alpha will be isomerising, at 100oC some Iso-Alpha is being broken down into trans Iso-Alpha degradation products.
Same applies to the flavour components in hops, there are several hundred of them belonging to a bunch of families all react to temperature, pH, minerals in water... differently.
Its all a series of rates of reaction and compromises.

From there we get into the difference between brewing Science and the Art of brewing. You have to learn what an addition at 85oC tastes like (we can measure it) and decide if that is the flavour you want, compared to say the same addition at 100oC for 10 minutes, part of the Art of brewing.
Mark


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## UsernameTaken (11/5/18)

As a non chiller I have been curious seeing people letting their wort drop to 80c before adding their whirlpool additions!

Makes sense for the hop control and repeatability but I would think dramatically increases the risk of infection?

So I have not been sure if I should go down this path or not??

Cheers,
UNT


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## koshari (11/5/18)

When dry hopping most people will be throwing em in at 20. No infections yet here for me.


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## UsernameTaken (11/5/18)

But you are safely under a bed of co2 in the fermenter at that point. I am talking about letting my wort drop to 80c in the kettle and then whirpooling and leaving it for another 20 minutes or so and then transferring to the cube!


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## Blind Dog (11/5/18)

Let it drop to 80 ish then transfer to cube and add the hops to the cube. Still in pasteurisation temp range. It’s how I’ve added late hops for years (learnt from discussions here).


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## hoppy2B (11/5/18)

It depends on the hop variety and the form the hops are in. I no chill, so the following information is based on no chilling.

Pellets tend to be a bit harsher in flavour. I think the reason for the harsher flavour might be that the hops get hot during the pressing into pellets process. Some producers in the USA go into a great explanation on their websites about why ''their'' hops don't heat up during their special pelleting techniques and what effect heating has on flavour. 

I find flowers to be a better option. I grow most of the hops I use, and rarely buy any. I get great flavours out of my farmgrown Victoria, which I add to the kettle at the end of the boil, whereas when I have tried the same thing with POR the flavour has been really rank. There aren't many varieties that give you great flavour with no chill. The only 2 that I have ever been happy with are Cascade and Victoria. Goldings is pretty mild but it won't give you the fruitiness of Cascade and especially Victoria.

I tend to add hops after letting the wort cool to about 85 or 90 all the time now. It doesn't result in infection if you are no chilling because the hops are in wort that stays at elevated temperature for a while. Years ago someone put a chart up on here that showed how long the wort had to stay at various temps to kill off the nasties. If I recall correctly the time at 60 degress was 2 hours. Adding hops at 85 degrees should ensure you are safe from infection if you no chill. (Which is a bit of an explanation of what Blind Dog has said.)

So in short, for better flavour, use flowers rather than pellets when no chilling. Use a variety that will give you good flavour. You might need to try a few to see which varieties are best. Don't be afraid to add your hops once the wort has cooled a bit. And maybe try growing some Victoria or Cascade. Commercially, maybe try Galaxy.

When using flowers I like to put them through a blender and then sift about half of the finer material out and use that. It captures nearly all of the lupulin and makes it easier to add larger amounts of hops to the kettle. It also helps the flavour to diffuse into the wort.


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## UsernameTaken (11/5/18)

Thanks hoppy2B. 
I guess we could spend the rest of our lives testing every possible combination of everything or looking to community to save us reinventing to many wheels!
I do love my hoppy beers and have been learning the hard way re when and how to add.
Flame out additions with additional bitterness factored in is what I have been doing, but the guts of my initial question here is; am I loosing flavours by adding at 99c or should it be pretty similar to adding at 85c (bitterness factored in)?
I do actually appreciate how a fair answer to this question is test it and see, but I was just hoping someone had already and could share??

Cheers,
UNT


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## Quokka42 (12/5/18)

UsernameTaken said:


> Thanks hoppy2B.
> I guess we could spend the rest of our lives testing every possible combination of everything or looking to community to save us reinventing to many wheels!
> I do love my hoppy beers and have been learning the hard way re when and how to add.
> Flame out additions with additional bitterness factored in is what I have been doing, but the guts of my initial question here is; am I loosing flavours by adding at 99c or should it be pretty similar to adding at 85c (bitterness factored in)?
> ...



The flavours from hops are very complex. Some need to be boiled out - hence the use of large quantities of older style hops for bittering in classic beers. Most of the flavour compounds are oils, but there are several different types. One extracts best in a fairly long boil in preferably a bitter wort, the next major group which was strong in the classic European hops is extracted best at 0-15 minutes. Then there are the really light aromas which can vary in their peak extraction from "whirlpool" (actually about 90C, like coffee,) to cold extraction in a beer that already has a significant alcohol concentration (dry hopping.)

Like the rest of brewing, a great brewer is like a great chef - it is all a combination of science and art, and the best have a combination of natural ability, and experienced palate, and experience.

In short - brew a lot of beer, keep a lot of notes, and in the end, brew what you like to drink. If you don't have your head up your butt there are probably a lot of other people who will like the same thing.


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## fdsaasdf (12/5/18)

You may not be 'losing' flavour however the flavour characteristics of the hops will vary based on the temperature you add them. 

This topic has been covered in considerable detail here and on many other brewing sites, for example: https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/hop-isomerisation-temperatures.68163/

Personally, like Blind Dog I no-chill above pasteurisation temperatures and usually add hops below 90 degrees C for hop-forward beers.


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## UsernameTaken (12/5/18)

Good read!
Cheers,
UNT


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## hellbent (12/5/18)

Blind Dog said:


> Let it drop to 80 ish then transfer to cube and add the hops to the cube.


 Not sure if I'm right here but I like to keep my temps around 85 when transferring into cube for the extra sterilisation of the cube I believe I get. I whirlpool then add my 0min hops before cubing.


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## hoppy2B (12/5/18)

UsernameTaken said:


> Thanks hoppy2B.
> 
> Flame out additions with additional bitterness factored in is what I have been doing, but the guts of my initial question here is; am I loosing flavours by adding at 99c or should it be pretty similar to adding at 85c (bitterness factored in)?
> 
> ...



fdsaasdf is correct about the question having been covered in some way in the past. I think what the experts came up with is that a flame-out addition with no chill is equal to a 20 minute addition with chilling. It has been said somewhere that a 20 minute addition with chilling will give the most flavour. 

As I said above, it depends on the variety. You won't be losing flavour by adding at flame-out and no chilling, but that is kind of dependent on the variety. Some varieties will taste like crap if you add flowers, and especially, pellets at flame-out and do not chill. So you really need to just see what you can do with each variety. If you want to keep no chilling and adding your hops at flame-out, just use the right hops. If a hop is a bit rank used at flame-out, you could try it at 90 degrees or perhaps 85.


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