# Force carbonation: lots of head pressure, still flat beer



## Zorco (29/4/17)

About 40 psi on top for 8 days and the beer pours flat.* Full keg. Weird, so I drank a few pints and pressurised again. Week 2 and same result.

It is an English strong brown ale, 7.2% ABV, Maris otter Simpsons black Gladfields light chocolate.

Nothing totally unconventional for this to occur I would think.

When I released head pressure there was plenty of gas purged.

I don't know what prevented it to dissolve yet. Would like some ideas please gents.

* a very tiny amount of CO2 in the beer, if I drop the beer 20cm into the bottom of a glass then I can develop a bit of head, but it fades quickly.

Yours Truly Confused,

Zorco


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## good4whatAlesU (29/4/17)

Very weird! When you pull the release valve does the gas rush out like it's properly getting into the keg?

I only had this problem once when my regulator indicated good pressure but a dodgy line splitter was not delivering gas into the keg (hence it did not carb up).


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## Judanero (29/4/17)

Could you try dropping the temp lower in the fridge and see if that makes a difference? Sounds like a weird problem, are you sure there's no leaks on keg?

Not really a solution but you could also get a 10 mL syringe to suck up the beer in your glass and pump it back in, makes for an almost nitro-esque creamy head that goes lovely in stouts and browns if they're under carbed.. 

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50906


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## Grott (29/4/17)

I'd say it's over carbonated, 40psi for 8 days?!! Set and forget is normally 7 to 8 days at serving pressure. Disconnect gas, release pressure in keg, wait an hour or so and if further pressure in the keg then this could be the answer. Check by pour a beer, if still flat release a bit more gas.


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## good4whatAlesU (29/4/17)

^agree 12-14 psi should have done the trick for that length of time.


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## Danscraftbeer (29/4/17)

Assuming you mean connected to 40psi for 8 days? Then yeah that would get over carbonated. Charging a keg headspace with 40 psi and left wont get anywhere near carbonated. Hope I'm not making a wasted comment there forgive me if I am... 

What is the FG? Heavy body beers, high gravity, high alc can always seem lower carb to me given the same conditioning as say sessionable beers. It can seem hard to raise the carbonation without going overboard. I just accept that's the way the beer is supposed to be, its taken its absorbable level of co2 and doesn't like to go any higher.


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## Grott (29/4/17)

Ha ha see you take on this Danscraftbeer, if 40psi left in head space for 8 days and not connect for 8 days then flat it would be. Zorco some pay back here, you need to use some viagra on this brew.


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## Danscraftbeer (29/4/17)

:blush: I'm not sure what's going on here but we'll get to the bottom of it. This forum always does.

I'll re-vouch for the set and forget connected to ~12psi/serving pressure. Chilled, 7 days its done.
Longer conditioning under these conditions being the polish.
Last beers served from the keg are the best usually. Only because its the longest conditioning etc....


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## Zorco (29/4/17)

Cheers for all this guys.

I hit it hard at 40 as I want to drive the gas in and sample throughout the week, usually until carbonation is where I want it and then bring her back to nominal pressures. It gives me a feel for how fast different beers accept the CO2.

It wasn't just a burst, i see the reg's LP reading before I go to dispense and it is at the 40 still.

Love the nitro-esque idea!

Dodgy reg is on my radar for sure. But when I release pressure to dispense it rushes the feck out like it should at 40.

It isn't getting in.

Crazy thoughts get into my head like..."BOC didn't fill this CO2 cylinder with CO2". Massive emphasis on that not being the likely outcome.

Temperature, that is a sore point. I don't have a single thermometer that I trust explicitly. I want a reference thermometer.
Thermapen, yes.... don't hate me, I'm gunna join the cult.

I'll try and drop 3 degrees tonight under the same pressure and see what happens.

Yours sensually with Viagra

Zorco

Edit: F 1016


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## Quokka42 (29/4/17)

What temperature is it at now?

Thermopen is a bit of an expensive answer to a simple problem. Get a bunch of cheap electronic thermometers off ebay, better if you have one good glass thermometer to check them against, but you can check them against each other. I have a long laboratory type glass one these days that is also good for stirring fines or starters if I am too lazy to grab the glass rod.


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## Zorco (29/4/17)

I have two kegs of the same beer at 2.8 degC according to an STC1000 calibrated to an Omron PID with a PT100 probe. Both benched against a fertility thermometer from a few years ago. Gotta be ±3degC in range...but who knows for sure. I did check them against eachother, with probes all zip tied together and they don't land at the same point across a range from 20 to 0 degC, and don't arrive at steady state at the same rate, so deltas change depending on where the frig orion is in the outer mood of uranus... tee hee hee. 

I like the glass lab version idea. I had one when I first started brewing 6 years ago. I'll order one now - why not.

My reg PRV lets go at about 48psi and I've driven it up that high before with this keg.

I've never carbonated another beer with this gas cylinder.. she's a spankers newby.


Yours thermal-accuracy impotent

Zorco.


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## good4whatAlesU (29/4/17)

Glass ones are good I've had a couple but keep breaking the darn things (I'm clumsy).. So I've reverted to a plastic digital cooking job now.


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## Brewno Marz (29/4/17)

Partial pressures & physics - it should be overcarbonated. Universal reset...turn it off then on again. Or it's operator error!


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## Quokka42 (29/4/17)

People often get bamboozled by the digits and decimal points on digital thermometers and don't know how to apply the accuracy figures, but it looks like Zorco is on top of it. Ironically, even a cheap glass thermometer tends to be more accurate over it's range as the physics is quite simple - i.e. hard for even the Chinese to stuff up.

I find when slow carbonating a heavy beer the top tends to be carbonated while the bottom stays quite flat. I would suggest giving the keg a rock or a roll with the cylinder turned off and see if the pressure drops. 

Another possibility is that the beer is at the low end of the scope of error and just isn't fizzing because it is too cold. Warm a glass in your hand and give it a swirl or stir to check for this.


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## Zorco (29/4/17)

Operator error, operator mistake, operator stupidity, operator ignorance... certainty is among those.

I usually make the effort to evade classic and quantum physics, then execute a universal reset only to look at some boobies.

This one is real so far though. 

Watching the beer warm does not show the release of the subversive CO2 bank balance an Antarctic beer should enjoy.

Will drop 3 degC and shake.

I'll video this tonight for evidence of the before, before the after.


Yours Newtonianly true

Zorco


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## Danscraftbeer (29/4/17)

You may just have one of those exotic higher level beers that need longer conditioning.
Pretty sure some of the best craft brews go by this inevitability.


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## themonkeysback (30/4/17)

Zorco said:


> Cheers for all this guys.
> 
> I hit it hard at 40 as I want to drive the gas in and sample throughout the week, usually until carbonation is where I want it and then bring her back to nominal pressures. It gives me a feel for how fast different beers accept the CO2.
> 
> ...


I think it is going to be overcarbed for sure. Dropping the temp is just going to make the overcarbonation worse and mean you have to purge more gas later. If it is rushing out of the tap then gas is getting in and will be in the beer. Seems counterintuitive with a flat seeming beer I know but I am confident this will be your problem. I would take it off the gas and purge it frequently for a day or two (or leave the prv open) then set and forget at a lower pressure. Not a fast solution, but the most likely to work.

Adam.


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## Grott (30/4/17)

grott said:


> Disconnect gas, release pressure in keg, wait an hour or so and if further pressure in the keg then this could be the answer. Check by pour a beer, if still flat release a bit more gas.


Did you try this simple test to confirm possible over carbonation or to confirm co2 may not being absorbed? personally would have done this before chasing temperatures, regs etc.
Sometimes over thinking can be the long way to resolve a problem.


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## mr_wibble (30/4/17)

I think you have a leak. 

Go over every join & junction with soapy water, including manifolds, etc.

Turn your gas off.

The next day, pull the pressure-release on your keg(s). At 40psi (275 KPa) it should sound like a rocket launch.
I know I've got a leak when stuff doesn't carbonate property.


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## Grott (30/4/17)

A leak is possible but I would have thought 40psi over 8 days you wouldn't have any gas left or at least notice.


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## Brewno Marz (30/4/17)

Are you sure it's 40psi & not 40 kPa? 40 kPa = flat beer


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## The Flyingscrapyard (2/5/17)

I recently went over to kegs, and had similar issues. Set the reg as per the recommended pressures (260kPa, but I prefer PSI as I can picture a pound sitting on a square inch), and left for most of the week. Released the pressure down to enough to pour (50kPa). Poured heaps of foam, and flat beer.
What did I do wrong?
So I wound the pressure up again, and lay the keg on its side with the gas in post below liquid level and rocked it as suggested on some forums. Yes, more gas went in and I left it for another day.
Released the pressure down to serving pressure, and it was even worse.
Then I had another look for answers on forums (including on AHB). This is where I found some sage advice that if you had heaps of head, and flat beer, then it was over-gassed, as the gas was coming out of solution when the pressure dropped during pouring. A tell tale suggested was that if the beer line was full of bubbles after pouring, it would be over-gassed.
It seemed counter-intuitive, but I wasn't getting better results by putting in more gas. So I dropped the pressure down, and vented the pressure each time I went past it during the next day, and tried pouring a beer that afternoon.
Success! Now I had a reasonable amount of head, and some bubbles in the beer. Not a lot, just a few streams in the glass, but enough to put a little sizzle on the tongue. This is what I'm currently trying to improve by increasing the pour pressure and leaving it at this same pressure all the time, therefore avoiding a differential of pressure between stored in the beer and that used to pour. This isn't working as well as I would like.
I would like to get a little more fizz into the beer, but this isn't coming easily. Perhaps others can suggest if my plan is flawed or not?


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## Liam_snorkel (2/5/17)

at 260kPa it would be fully carbed within 2 days depending on a few things. a week - wayyyy over carbed.





The Flyingscrapyard said:


> Poured heaps of foam, and flat beer.


The beer in the keg is so fizzy that the bulk of the carbonation gets agitated out of solution while you're pouring it


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## Black Devil Dog (2/5/17)

I'd say it's definitely over carbonated and speaking from experience, I've found that almost totally de-carbonating it is your best option.

I suspect that recently, I carbonated a keg twice :huh: and had massive foam issues like I'd never experienced before. 

The way I de-carbonated was to attach a length of silicon tube to a gas quick connect and put the loose end of the tube into a 3 litre milk bottle with sanitiser, essentially making a blow off tube for my keg.

Be prepared for a shit load of foam to escape as well.

I left it connected overnight.

The next morning I connected the co2 at serving pressure and later that day it was fine.

Any time I've over-carbonated in the past, I've tried to rectify it by releasing the PRV numerous times, or poured foam until the beer glass is full and both of those ways have been a pain in the arse.


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## Grott (2/5/17)

The set and forget method of setting the pressure at dispensing pressure and leaving it ensures you won't over carb but you need to leave that set up for 7 days plus to achieve the required carbonation.
Fine if you have a few kegs or you don't drink much but I like to have all my cold kegs carbed and ready to go so I force carbonate to a set method each time that requires 24 hours at dispensing pressure to finish carbonation process ( therefore I don't have over carb problems as the force carb method has just left the kegs slightly undercarbed).

The are numerous threads on force carbonation if you want to go down that path.


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## Brewnicorn (2/5/17)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'd say it's definitely over carbonated and speaking from experience, I've found that almost totally de-carbonating it is your best option.
> 
> I suspect that recently, I carbonated a keg twice :huh: and had massive foam issues like I'd never experienced before.
> 
> ...


This answered a long held question I wanted to ask about whether you'd 'ruin' a keg of beer if you stuffed the carbonation levels. 
Thank you! 
-scared noob


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## Black Devil Dog (2/5/17)

grott said:


> *The set and forget method* of setting the pressure at dispensing pressure and leaving it ensures you won't over carb but you need to leave that set up for 7 days plus to achieve the required carbonation.
> Fine if you have a few kegs or you don't drink much but I like to have all my cold kegs carbed and ready to go so I force carbonate to a set method each time that requires 24 hours at dispensing pressure to finish carbonation process ( therefore I don't have over carb problems as the force carb method has just left the kegs slightly undercarbed).
> 
> The are numerous threads on force carbonation if you want to go down that path.


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## Rocker1986 (2/5/17)

I had some over carbonation issues when I started too, trying to use the quick carb method that does it in a matter of minutes (aside from the settling time). It didn't end up as bad as some, but I poured nothing but foam on the first glass, so I figured that was the problem. I got around it by bleeding the pressure in the keg, then giving it a half second hit of gas (serving pressure), which put just enough pressure in the keg to push the beer out of the tap, then pouring a glass. No foam everywhere, and plenty of carbonation in the beer, too much but at least it wasn't flat. This worked well until the carb level dropped a bit under normal and it then went back on normal serving pressure. It doesn't sound like that's gonna work in this instance so you might just have to completely de-carbonate the beer and start again.

I've since gotten rid of that "instant" method and just put them on 45PSI in the kegerator for about 22 hours followed by a 6-7 hour settling period, then pressure bleed, connect beer lines and re-connect gas at serving pressure. They're a tad undercarbed at this point but good enough to enjoy a glass, and another day on serving pressure sees them right.

Last year I had a 7% stout on tap which finished at about 1.015-16 FG. It just sat on serving pressure the whole time but it definitely didn't carb up as much on the same pressure as lighter styles do, which suited me fine actually because the carb level in it was perfect and I didn't even have to **** around with anything to get it there :lol:


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## Liam_snorkel (2/5/17)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'd say it's definitely over carbonated and speaking from experience, I've found that almost totally de-carbonating it is your best option.
> 
> I suspect that recently, I carbonated a keg twice :huh: and had massive foam issues like I'd never experienced before.
> 
> ...


here's an easier way. it works and is mess-free:

https://youtu.be/xk79UYGmAk8?t=6m58s


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## Brewnicorn (2/5/17)

Liam_snorkel said:


> here's an easier way. it works and is mess-free:
> 
> https://youtu.be/xk79UYGmAk8?t=6m58s


Ripper


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## peteru (2/5/17)

Just a warning about that video, if you don't like waffle - don't watch it!

For me, the simplest and most fool-proof quick-carb method is the carbonation keg lid from Keg King. It works a beauty. I fill the keg from fermenter with 5C beer, put the carbonation lid on and hook up the carbonation stone post to gas at 10psi. Give the fermenter a quick clean, come back to the keg 5 minutes later and turn up the gas to 20-25psi. Leave for another 10 minutes, then disconnect the gas from carbonation lid, carry keg to the kegerator and hook up the normal beer and gas disconnects. It's pretty much ready to drink straight away.

Less work and probably faster than the shake/roll over-pressure methods. Certainly less risk of overcarbonation.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (3/5/17)

This answers some of my questions.

I tend to lean to set and forget, because i'm sick of trying to get drinkable beer straight off the bat. The only reason I have tried for so long was having another brewer's 24hour carbed beer which was great. I just can't seem to pull it off.

So now, I just dial up to serving pressure and leave for a week. 2 weeks is perfect, but if it's a beer that deals with lower carbonation (like my mild) then the keg starts to disappear quickly within 4 days.

I just drink stuff from bottles or buy commercial beer if the other keg is either SWMBO beer or nearly empty. I have yet (around my 5 kids) managed to brew enough to fill three drinkable kegs at the same time.


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## Grott (3/5/17)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I just drink stuff from bottles or buy commercial beer if the other keg is either SWMBO beer or nearly empty. I have yet (around my 5 kids) managed to brew enough to fill three drinkable kegs at the same time.


Have you considered just doing a couple of kit and kilo brews for the other 2 kegs? Using decent malt, yeast and you can get a top drop.
With my force carbing of all my kegs it is not designed for immediate drinking as they usually sit carbonated in the fridge for 3 to 4 weeks before used, it jousts suits me this way and have the "process" down pat.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (3/5/17)

grott said:


> Have you considered just doing a couple of kit and kilo brews for the other 2 kegs? Using decent malt, yeast and you can get a top drop.
> With my force carbing of all my kegs it is not designed for immediate drinking as they usually sit carbonated in the fridge for 3 to 4 weeks before used, it jousts suits me this way and have the "process" down pat.


I've yet to find a K&K I really like.

With Kit beers, styles such as stout/porter and the like tend to be what I prefer (though it's been years) because I can hid the kit twang and make a decent black beer. But I've already got bottles of stout sitting away, and wanted something bland and fizzy to fill a keg and they don't tend to suit K&K beers for me.

Having said that, I managed to squeeze 2 x 19L lots of beer from the urn, so I have an XPA fermenting and an EPA to go. My other issue - fermenting space - only one fermenting fridge capable of taking only one fermenter at a time.

Hopefully the Saison done with WY3724 and Danstar Belle Saison will be fizzy soon. Already tasting phenomenal.


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## Rocker1986 (3/5/17)

A bit O/T; I have the same issue with fermenting space, but I find if I put three full kegs* in at the same time, I can get the next three fermented and kegged before the last of the previous three blows dry, and the cycle repeats.

*I also have a 10L 'Heinz 57' keg that gets filled with 8 or 9L of blended surplus from two batches which is tapped when one of the 19L ones runs out, so it's sort of 3 and a half kegs.


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## contrarian (3/5/17)

The other things I find impact carbonation levels are the amount of headspace and the temperature so always best to chill before carbonating and if you have a very full keg and are doing a quick carb method such as the Ross method, you will need a bit longer.

If you have the kegs available about 1/4cup of sugar, a purge at high pressure to ensure the lid seals and a week at ambient is also a very simple way to get consistent carbonation levels although it leaves a bit more yeast at the bottom of the keg.


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## Liam_snorkel (3/5/17)

slightly off topic but while you mention it - keg king are selling their flexible dip tube float (made for fermentersaurus) separately, which could come in handy for naturally carbed kegs http://kegking.com.au/fermentasaurus-float-and-dip-tube.html
I've recently bought a few spare kegs so will look at doing this.


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## contrarian (3/5/17)

Even without them it isn't a big deal. Once the kegs are chilled there might be a glass that gets chucked but that's about it.


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## Liam_snorkel (3/5/17)

good to know.


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## Danscraftbeer (3/5/17)

Re - Set and forget at 12psi for all your beer styles. 1 to 2 weeks. Then give it two weeks! That's it. Accept it.
1 week for pale light body beers to 2 weeks or more for heavier higher body beers.
Drink something else if you have to in the meantime but consider that in the turnover time of your beer. Plus all the other time etc.

I pressure ferment so my beer finishes around 90% carbonated. Even then its best if connected to 12psi and chilled for more than a week in the kegorator/fridge set up on tap etc. After a month an tap is were its at for what your beer really should be IMO.
Don't over think it. Its a time conditioning thing that cant be rushed for the real polish.
$0.02

Edit: To ad.
I have to admit that you can make really good drinking beer on tap at 14 days from grain to brain and IPA is the best candidate for that shortest time ratio but then again give it time on tap conditioning it gets better.


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## stm (10/5/17)

Quick question: how do you calibrate a regulator? (I have a Keg King MkIV, is this generally accurate and not requiring calibration?)


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## good4whatAlesU (10/5/17)

I suppose you just attach a pressure gauge to a line leading from the Reg.

If the pressure gauge shows the same as what the reg is set to, it's all good.


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## Lionman (11/5/17)

I've got a beer on tap like this at the moment, driving me bananas.

I think it's over carbed. While trying to troubleshoot I realised the beer was foaming in the line about 20cm from the shank. Pretty sure all the CO2 was coming out of solution by the time ti was in the glass.

Lots of white fluffy head with almost flat beer underneath. It's off the gas now and I will vent daily for a few days, hopefully, it settles down.


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## mtb (11/5/17)

Situations like this make good use of a spunding valve. Set to 10psi, pour a few beers, if it ends up back at 10psi soon after it means the beer is carbonated higher than 10 and is a good indicator of overcarbonation


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## Lionman (11/5/17)

mtb said:


> Situations like this make good use of a spunding valve. Set to 10psi, pour a few beers, if it ends up back at 10psi soon after it means the beer is carbonated higher than 10 and is a good indicator of overcarbonation


Would this help return it to a good level of carbonation too? 

Are there any decent ones available that at affordable?


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## mtb (11/5/17)

It would, definitely. Grain and Grape sell them.

ed: for the sake of supporting AHB's sponsors I adjusted my link to G&G from those.. other guys


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## mckenry (11/5/17)

The very first post says he has to splash the beer in from 20cm to get a bit of head which does quickly. That's not typical of over-carbed beer. You should get a massive head with flat beer underneath. I'm sorry I can't offer any advice that hasn't already been suggested, but it doesn't sound over. It sounds flat. Proper flat. Even though the numbers don't add up. I have a carb measurement machine like this below. Any of your mates or local micros have one?


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## mckenry (11/5/17)

Dies quickly ^


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## mckenry (11/5/17)

I would probably start by degassing the head space and shaking. Try to vent again and see if gas keeps coming out of solution. Do it a few times to prove one way or the other. If it does keep coming,it may well be over done.


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## TheWiggman (12/5/17)

Zorco, I've skimmed over the thread and can't find any mention of keg temperature. If you're going to carbonate a keg, it needs to be done cold (<4°C). The rate of absorption is a function of temperature and pressure (as well as some other factors) so if your beer isn't cold enough you're going to be waiting a long time for to reach the carbonation levels you're after.
There are a couple of simple points to follow that will affect carbonation -

The colder the temperature of the fluid, the faster the rate of absorption. Ideally, refrigerate the beer.
The higher the pressure the faster the rate of absorbtion
Agitating the fluid will increase absorption rate
The smaller the gas bubbles, the better (i.e. an aeration stone works far better than running gas in through the liquid post)
When pouring, to minimise foam you want to stop CO2 coming out of solution. Ways to reduce this -

Maintain cold lines and tap
Minimise flow velocity (long lines or flow control tap)
Reduce/eliminate restrictions like bends or orifice changes
Note too that the pressure on the head space is not necessarily equivalent to the dissolved CO2 volume of the beer. Take a bottle of soft drink for example. After resting on the shelf it will be tight to squeeze. Shake it and suddenly it becomes tight as buggery. Pressure wasn't suddenly injected into the head space but pouring the soft drink immediately will result in a flatter drink. Put it in the fridge for a while and the pressure will seemingly drop and make for a fizzy drink again. Treat a keg of beer in the same light - once the pressure has been taken off and it's cold and settled for a while (~1 day for sure), the head space pressure will be indicative of the dissolved pressure.
My observations are that if I leave a keg at serving pressure (70 - 80 kPa) in the fridge it will take about 3 weeks before it seems truly carbonated.


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## klangers (12/5/17)

Also don't forget pressure drop across checkvalves. 

can be as much as 5 PSI.


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## Grott (12/5/17)

Yes, good point. I have a regulator with non return valve going to a manifold with same then going off to 4 kegs. Poured perfect at 10psi. Same set up but introduced gas disconnects to kegs with non return valves and now dispense at 14psi for same result.


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## Rocker1986 (12/5/17)

grott said:


> Yes, good point. I have a regulator with non return valve going to a manifold with same then going off to 4 kegs. Poured perfect at 10psi. Same set up but introduced gas disconnects to kegs with non return valves and now dispense at 14psi for same result.


I noticed this too when I set up my manifold. Previously I just had a non return valve a length of line away from the regulator and the other side fed into T-splitters which fed the kegs. It worked nicely on about 11PSI or so, but now I have to have it up around 13-14PSI for the same carb level.

With overcarbed kegs I bleed pressure and then just pour them on very low pressure (just enough to push the beer out of the tap, another plus for the manifold set up). They don't pour foam doing this so I can still drink the beer, not waste any from foaming, they don't pour flat with a huge head and it gradually de-carbonates it back to a normal level at the same time. Last time I had one I let it go a bit below normal then put it back on serving pressure and it was fine.


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