# Saving time/overnight mashing.



## Coldspace (22/1/17)

With the advent of all these small electric brew units, brewmeister, grain father,Robo brew etc plus the many excellent home made jobbies out there, over night mashing although not new by any means seems to me to be an excellent way for us time poor brewers to save some time, get some improvements for efficiency and keep SWMBO a little more happy, seems too many benifits.

I was inspired by Batz imput on this and thought I'd carry on learning new brew techniques .... 

Thursday night, milled 2 x 9 kg batches of grain doing a aussie style lager and LCPA clone which I love double batch high grav brews in the gf's
So Friday night after dinner , tired from work had a few quiet ales, set up my and my brothers grainfathers
Filled up with filtered water, treated with minerals half campden tablet each, heated to 55, dough in , held for 10 mins, raised them up to 66, held for 45 , 72 for 15 mash out at 77. Measured out hop additions,At this stage it was 10 pm, I left the grainfathers on the 500 watt heat setting and pumps running. They cycled the elements on and off approx 50% of the time and held at 77.
Went to bed, got up at 7 am, put them into boil mode and sparged. I had the sparge urns on timers at 6 am so when I got up at 7 they were ready.
The malt smell at 7 am was Devine , and the clarity was crystal clear....
Boiled, hops, 4 x cubed up all done by 10am cleaned up. Cubes sitting in swimming pool. I'm sold tks to Batz .
Any others want to add to this, I left mine on mash out over night, wort tastes terrific, hit all my numbers spot on.
Reading on other blogs about this, thinking mash in 55, 64-66 for 1 hr depending on receipe, then to 70-71 for over night, then mash out in morning for 20 mins while heating up sparge urns..
Might get more efficiency , and only adds 20 mins in morning.

Questions,
Does doing the beta first as usual for say 1 hr then upto the alpha of say 69-71 for rest of the night then mash out in morning be agood way to run?

Or just keep doing what I did Friday night, all the mash rests till mash out temp, then leave at 77 over night a more consistant option.

I've read that really long over night mashes can give you really awesome attenuation , great for drier beers but maybe not so for some styles, would holding it less at the 65 then over night at 70-71 help address this issue for some styles...?

I've read other guys in the past used to do overnight mashes but in reverse because of the lack of small heating element controlled by controller, mash in high say 69-70, wrap in doonah, then in morning the mash dropped back down to 60 or so, then boil away. Bribie you done this before...

With the advent of these semi auto systems we can do all sorts of things, bacterial issues are going to be non issue at our temps over night,
I'm only new to this, one double batch over night down, will be running this way from now on , keen to refine it as usual,

I'm all ears guys ....

Cheers and beers...


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## manticle (22/1/17)

If you rest too long at beta, there'll be nothing left for alpha.

The other advantage of mash out in this circumstance is that it should effectively kill bacteria present in the mash.


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## Coldspace (22/1/17)

So, what I'm thinking is maybe Beta for 30 mins, alpha for 30 and mash out overnight as described ...?

Would for a standard pale ale or something similar, mash in 55 and then hold at 66 over night?

My understanding is the enzymes work at all temps, just a some faster than others at optimum temps, so 66 been the sweet spot both may work as happy campers over night , till morning mash out and boil?

I was thinking this to increase the grav, but I hit all numbers fri nite anyway and the gf on low heat held it at 77 easy, but at 66 would be less load,

I easy to keep it at 77 overnight anyway..

At 66, that should be hot enough to ward off souring the mash? I'm not leaving it more than 8-9 hrs, unless I'm hung over and sleeping in lol


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## MHB (22/1/17)

There was an old overnight mash used in Germany (probably other places too) the mash was mashed in cold (ambient), left overnight to hydrate and for the enzymes to go into solution and perhaps to do some work, in the morning the wort was heated by either decoction or by adding boiling water.
There are some small gains in extract, but not enough to pay for the extra energy and time the equipment was tied up for, talking about commercial operations.

Might even be worth thinking about with under-modified malt, or just mash in cold the night before and start heating at the other end in a more conventional step regime.

Do a bit more reading, and I'm going to say nearly every assumption made above is either wrong or much more complex than you would like to think.
Brewing is a science and its been well researched for hundreds of years, before you tare up everything we know, it is a really good idea to understand what is really happening.


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## manticle (22/1/17)

Not exactly 'happen at all temps' - just that they are optimised within a certain range, will occur underneath that range but more slowly and will start to denature above it, more rapidly as it gets hotter.

66 may be hot enough to kill lacto - I'm not sure but 77 will definitely be*. Pasteurisation also happens much more quickly at higher temps and 77 is well above recommended food pasteurisation temp (66 isn't, 65ish is the upper end at which some spoilage bacteria can actually grow).

Presumably you are programming all this so I'd reccommend hitting 77 as a safeguard. Probably fine but the only way to find out it's not is to **** up a batch.

*some lacto strains may be tolerant to even these temps - not sure if these strains are present in grain or not. Ultimately if you end up with soured wort, you'll know why.


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## Coldspace (22/1/17)

I'll stick to what I did Friday night, standard mash regime, into mash out territory of 77, off to bed, sparge and boil first thing in the morning. Still saves me the weekend to do other things.

Cheers for the input guys..


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## Danscraftbeer (22/1/17)

I didn't think bacteria in the mash is any problem since the wort gets boiled for so long after. Maybe I'm getting off track. I do the old time methods in a way.

I mash in an esky, no additional heating and the trick is getting strike water temps correct but its not hard, its easy with the help of Beersmith estimates and recorded notes etc. Old style Decoction techniques get some lovely malt flavours too. I am fond of melanoiden malt character.

Plenty of times I have done the overnight mash. Just left it at my chosen saccarification temp. Next morning it may have dropped 7c.

In comparison when I do the one day thing with a 60- 90 minute mash time I cant actually see much of a difference. Efficiency, flavours etc all seem the same so it has been a time saver thing for me too kinda. Put the mash in the night before. Same time spent either way but its a handy option considering it has no negative effects at all as far as I can tell.


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## Coldspace (22/1/17)

Tks Dancraftbeers , I understand the science side of it abit, but also love personal experiences. I'll think the bacterial spoilage manticle is referring to is actually souring the mash taste which a boil will kill the nasty but not remove the taste .
But hey, if it's working fine with you and I've seen others do same then all good.

I'll experiment more as well as read up more, but i did read an article on one craft brewery in the USA doing similar things to up production.

I'm trying to save time, I'm always running short of beer, because of a thirsty family lol, a reason I got my bro to invest in a gf and another kegmenter , so we can keep up..
Plus the fact we got mini kegs last bulk buy so beer goes everywhere there's social things on.

Interesting on it dropping 7 degrees with no ill effect tasted. 

I think initially after 95% of the mash has achieved its goals before bedtime then the small remainder of not been in right temp spot will do not much to the quality. 
Correct me if I'm off track please...
I'm planning another double batch gf's run next Friday night /sat morning for another 4 cubes, we should be sweet again for another month or so.

Cheers


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## Moad (22/1/17)

you could use more advanced controller to help. I use a BCS-462 and fill my vessels the night before, set it to start heating the water at 3am. I get up at 5am and mash in then go back to bed. Then I get up at 7.30am to kick the sparge off and go onto the boil from there. It helps with such large volumes with increased heating times, also helps with large volumes of complaints from the wife about brewing time.


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## malt junkie (22/1/17)

Matho's controller has the same sort of delayed start. So when you get up in the morning your at strike ready to mash in. And like Moads setup the entire mash regime can be fully automated until it's time to sparge. By then you should have made the pancakes for the missus, had your fair share and be on your third coffee.


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## technobabble66 (23/1/17)

Moad said:


> ... I get up at 5am and mash in then go back to bed. Then I get up at 7.30am to kick the sparge off ....


You're not selling that well, Moad. :huh:

On topic, I regularly (currently doing it tonight!) mash, sparge, then bring to boil (for 20+ mins or so) on day 1, then on day 2 bring back up to the boil, boil down to a set level then cube. So overnight i'd finish the last 30-60secs of the boil with the lid on, then wrap in a towel to semi-seal.
FWIW, I only do FWH during the boil, so it also gives me a little extra freedom in boil timing.
Occasionally even bring to boil on Day 2 for 10-20mins to re-sanitise, then shut it down, and do the final boil & cube on day 3. 

The thinking behind doing all of that on Day 1 is that the enzymes will be active until hitting ~80°C, and the wort won't be particularly sterile until hitting boil. So i've not been 100% comfortable with just holding the mash at 76-80°C for several hours in case there are enzymes still active in the wort (that go on to undo all my careful step mashing) or there are bacteria that could still be alive - all of which later take advantage of their respective temperature windows as the temperature slowly drop overnight. Admittedly beta is the main concern and that should be completely deactivated by ~75°C. 
The idea is to get it all to the point whereby the entire mash process is completed and the derived wort hits a boil for 10-20 mins. Hence the enzymes will DEFINITELY be kaput and the wort will DEFINITELY be sterile for a short-ish period of time.
You're probably fine hitting mash-out of ~78°C for several hours with respect to both keeping it sanitised and deactivating the enzymes. My only concern _for my own process_ is the issue with potential tannin extraction etc, at that 78-80°C temp (FWIW, it'd be a struggle for me to maintain that temp, so my decision also relates to the limit of my tech).
Essentially, i'd give it a crack & see how you go - as per Danscraftbeer, you may find it works well for you and you can't detect any difference, so why the firetruck not?


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## Yob (23/1/17)

Ive done it loads, mash in cold, set the hex to 78, the timer for 4am.

After the kids breakfasts are done I fly sparge it out and boil. 

My little hex does a nice slow ramp, close to 2'c min but gets the job done.. Never had an issue with the resultant.. Usually only done it on ipa's and bigger beers but just go for it. Saves a bunch of time.


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## Coldspace (23/1/17)

technobabble66 said:


> You're not selling that well, Moad. :huh:
> 
> On topic, I regularly (currently doing it tonight!) mash, sparge, then bring to boil (for 20+ mins or so) on day 1, then on day 2 bring back up to the boil, boil down to a set level then cube. So overnight i'd finish the last 30-60secs of the boil with the lid on, then wrap in a towel to semi-seal.
> FWIW, I only do FWH during the boil, so it also gives me a little extra freedom in boil timing.
> ...


I like this idea, will give me more time on Saturday, especially when kids start school sports.
I'll mash in, steps, mash out , and sparge the grainfather, bring to boil as you said for 10 mins on Friday night. Shut it down. Which is proballly a safer option than leaving run all night. Wrap in blanket .
Sat, morning bring to boil, hops, cube up. 
Plus the fact the grain like you say is not sitting around over night in 77-78 temps.
Will only add half hr extra fri night for me, half hr less sat morning , which for my circumstances is better, plus if I do sleep in alittle sat morning no biggie.
I might invest in some grain father coats for the winter months to help retain the overnight heat... 
I Should be done before lazy teenagers are even out of bed lol

Cheers for the idea


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## Coalminer (23/1/17)

Done 6 separate no-chill cubes at the weekend, 2 of them overnight
As I normally awake by 5am its no drama
I mash in at ambient with the BM set for 180mins at ambient then normal step mash after that. start it off at 10:30 -11:00pm
get up in the morning as it is finishing mash out. If I get up a bit later no problems - just an extended mash-out
Lift the pipe and start boil. cube done by 7:30am. Then 2 more during the day. Same set-up Sunday.
Still time to cut the grass and do a bit of shopping


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## Moad (23/1/17)

technobabble66 said:


> You're not selling that well, Moad. :huh:


7 month old in the house, I don't sleep anyway!


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## Dan Pratt (23/1/17)

I've been overnight mashing for a while and its very time efficient and increased my yield by about 5% on average. I mash in at 20-25c depending on the ground water temps @ 930pm and set the BM to run the following:

20m/52c, 60m/65c, 20m/72c, 180m/76c x 2 = ~ 9hrs of mash time. 

Total time on average for no chilled is 2.5hrs - 20mins prep the night of mash in - weigh and mill grains, fill with water, mash in, check pH etc etc...go to bed, next morning..., lift malt pipe, sparge and bring to boil, 60min boil, WP and transfer, clean up. For chilled beers that is 3.25hrs as these are hoppy ales with whirlpoolling hot and @ 75c plus chilling takes ages through my CFC and groundwater. 

Its a luxury with the BM and I get better numbers with lower grain abortions as the 76c rest for extended periods seems to rinse or drain much better than single infusion mashes. 

This brewing method gives me the rest of the day to see family and friends or chill out, plus without drinking while brewing, only coffee at that time of day. :beerbang:


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## mofox1 (23/1/17)

Yob said:


> Ive done it loads, mash in cold, set the hex to 78, the timer for 4am.
> 
> After the kids breakfasts are done I fly sparge it out and boil.
> 
> My little hex does a nice slow ramp, close to 2'c min but gets the job done.. Never had an issue with the resultant.. Usually only done it on ipa's and bigger beers but just go for it. Saves a bunch of time.


I'm unable to set a timer up on mine (brew panel is on a 32amp supply, and anyway the panel will not turn on unless all switches are in the "off" position).

However, mashing in cold - I like that idea *a lot*. I usually preheat my HLT the night before (getting 80L up to boiling the night before usually results in around sacc temp the next morning)... but this will take it to whole new level. Just need to turn the system on and go. Should also stop me getting in trouble with the missus because for whatever reason I didn't mash in until 12pm and I'm still cleaning up at dinner time... :/

Yo, Yob... any issues with recirculation at cold temps after the overnight rest? I need to ease into a full flow when I've mashed in at 50-65. Never done it from 15-20 degrees before.


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## Yob (23/1/17)

I set the bed the night before, kicks on just fine


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## Danscraftbeer (23/1/17)

Coldspace said:


> I like this idea, will give me more time on Saturday, especially when kids start school sports.
> I'll mash in, steps, mash out , and sparge the grainfather, bring to boil as you said for 10 mins on Friday night. Shut it down. Which is proballly a safer option than leaving run all night. Wrap in blanket .
> Sat, morning bring to boil, hops, cube up.


One thing. I have done this with 40lt brew. Turned off the keggle. Left sit overnight then brought back to boil the next morning and I got a scorched bottom. Wort left to sit that long there was sediment. Then cranked up the flame and burned the sediment cake.
So in hindsight I needed to stir up the bottom well before cranking up the heat.


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## technobabble66 (23/1/17)

^^ agree completely!

I realized this afternoon after posting that I'd forgotten to mention this important step: it's best to stir the cool wort a few times while heating to ensure the element or base of your pot isn't too heavily caked in hot break. 
*Especially at the start!*
Also might be more important if you don't recirculate through your mash at mash out (because you'll have much more sediment in your kettle) or if your using wheat or oats in your grist (might make for a slightly "gummier" sediment?). 

I've not burnt the hot break yet, but it's looked pretty close a few times when I've gone to clean the urn's element afterwards. One stir at the start is probably all that's needed, but I keep my lid on until I hit 90+ (speeds up the reheating by a moderate amount), so a little stir to get a better temp reading is done anyway.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/1/17)

manticle said:


> If you rest too long at beta, there'll be nothing left for alpha.



To quote Briggs



> The extensive degradation of starch that occurs during mashing depends on the concerted action of the mixture of enzymes present and is often limited by enzyme destruction rather than the absence of substrates for possible enzyme attack.


(Briggs et al, CRC Handbook of Malting and Brewing Science 2004 p 147)

A very long rest at beta will result in there not being any active beta left by the end of the rest.


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## manticle (23/1/17)

I have access to an electronic copy of briggs somewhere (somewhere slightly annoying) but can you elaborate?

I'm interpreting that beta will denature before it breaks down everything beyond alpha's reach? So even a 3 hr rest at 62 (for example) may leave starch that alpha can convert to dextrins?

Presumably (based mostly on my palate and personal experience of step mashes) - not much in real terms to balance what will be a very attenuative wort.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/1/17)

That's the theory, backed up by recent experience: Moving from a six hour mash to an eight hour mash increased fermentability eg it reduced FG from >1 oP* to about 0.7 oP. Next up I'm trying 12 hours to see what I can get. I don't think I'll be able to get under 0 without enzyme but at least I'll have tried.




*Somewhat shamefacedly I must admit to not having measured this properly.


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## Coldspace (23/1/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> One thing. I have done this with 40lt brew. Turned off the keggle. Left sit overnight then brought back to boil the next morning and I got a scorched bottom. Wort left to sit that long there was sediment. Then cranked up the flame and burned the sediment cake.
> So in hindsight I needed to stir up the bottom well before cranking up the heat.


Tks for the tip, might have saved me a lot of cleaning and lack of boil. 
Cheers


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## Zorco (23/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> To quote Briggs
> 
> 
> (Briggs et al, CRC Handbook of Malting and Brewing Science 2004 p 147)
> ...


What happens to the enzyme causing its destruction?


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## MHB (23/1/17)

Enzymes will work for a long time cool and slow, as they get hotter (from what is called activation temperature) they work faster but denature sooner. Apparently they will do the same (or close to the same) amount of work in total. But at some point they just fall apart.
Have read that it would take about two weeks to "mash" at 20oC, naturally by then the mash would be hopelessly infected.

For each enzyme there is an optimum temperature and pH, in any mash we will be compromising between the various enzymes ideal conditions to get them to do most of what we want, in a timely manner. There are also a hell of a lot of enzymes that we don't use, or even want to see too active (i.e. Gamma Amylase 3pH peak, lipoxidase, some of the proteases... )

Mark

A bit of light reading
View attachment 09 - The role of enzymes.pdf


LC why would you want a beer that dry? unless you just wanted the alcohol from it.
M


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## Zorco (24/1/17)

manticle said:


> I have access to an electronic copy of briggs somewhere


http://www.mbaa.com/districts/Northwest/Documents/MISC/Books/BRIGGS,%20Brewing%20science%20and%20practice%20(2004).pdf


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## Zorco (24/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> To quote Briggs
> 
> 
> (Briggs et al, CRC Handbook of Malting and Brewing Science 2004 p 147)
> ...


document p133 of link above, physical pdf p153


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## stuartf (24/1/17)

Not trying to kill the experimental theme of the conversation here but has the OP thought of buying the new grainfather controller which allows delayed start times and auto step mashes? May not be as much fun but would take some of the guess work out of it.


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## mr_wibble (25/1/17)

manticle said:


> [...]
> 66 may be hot enough to kill lacto - I'm not sure but 77 will definitely be*. Pasteurisation also happens much more quickly at higher temps and 77 is well above recommended food pasteurisation temp (66 isn't, 65ish is the upper end at which some spoilage bacteria can actually grow).
> 
> [...]
> *some lacto strains may be tolerant to even these temps - not sure if these strains are present in grain or not. Ultimately if you end up with soured wort, you'll know why.


Listening to some podcasts on (intentionally) sour beers, it sounds like hops (even unboiled) are particularly good at inhibiting lacto'.
Maybe some mash-hops would hinder/prevent infection by lacto' over extended mashing periods.


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## klangers (25/1/17)

Hotter you keep the wort, the less DO problems you'll come back to later.

If your house is smelling of malt, some of the malty flavour goodness has oxidised .


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## Tony121 (25/1/17)

klangers said:


> If your house is smelling of malt......


That's my favourite part of the brew day, please don't take that away from me!


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## Moad (8/2/17)

going to approach my process differently tomorrow to see if I can get a mid week brew with no complaints...

Have filled the vessels and milled grain tonight, planning on "mashing in" when I leave for work at 7 (25c).

I'll set the BCS to start my strike process and tell it to move on to the first mash step automatically when it hits mash step 1 temp rather than strike temp.

It will go through the steps and then I will hold at mash out until I get home, I could be done by 7pm!

I could use this over night as well to save my 5.30am wake up call for mash in.

Once I add two float switches in (one in HLT to turn off the pump and the other in the BK to stop sparge when full) I'll be able to automate the sparge process as well meaning I can mash in when I go to bed and wake up to the start of the boil.


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## RobW (9/2/17)

There's been a fair bit of discussion on the Braumeister forum about this and it certainly makes for a short brew day and increased extraction.

link

another link


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## Moad (9/2/17)

Well mash looks to have gone well, it is now sitting at mash out waiting for me to get home.

Planning on kicking off the sparge (regulated with a blichmann sparge arm) as I am leaving work. I forgot this one is a 90 min boil so will be done and cleaned up by 9pm.

Will report results back


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/2/17)

manticle said:


> 66 may be hot enough to kill lacto - I'm not sure but 77 will definitely be*.
> 
> *some lacto strains may be tolerant to even these temps - not sure if these strains are present in grain or not. Ultimately if you end up with soured wort, you'll know why.



To work out the heat death for an organism you need to know the D value at a standard temperature (time taken for one log cycle, eg population to reduce to 1/10 initial value, normally at 60 oC for organisms of interest) and the z value (temperature increase required to reduce D value by a factor of 10).

_Streptococcus thermophilus_ is used as the standard model for spoilage due to thermophilic LABs; as its name implies it's very heat tolerant. Highest D60 value I can find is 8.3 minutes, accompanied by a z value of 6.2oC . Highest z value I can find is 12 oC, accompanied by a D60 of 2.2 minutes.

Taking a worst case scenario and combining D60 = 8.3 minutes and z = 12 oC to get D66 = 2.5 minutes (8.3 x (log (6 oC / 12 oC)), it would take 15 minutes to reach 6 log death, the accepted value for functional sterility.

In case you were wondering, both D and z values are pH dependent but the figures I quoted are at pH 7, at mash pH they will both be much smaller so death will be quicker.

BTW last week I mashed for 8 hours at 60 - 66 oC followed by 2 hours at 68 oC * There was no lactic influence that I could discern.



* It was meant to rise continuously from 62 to 70 over ten hours but the heater turned off while I was asleep.


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## manticle (9/2/17)

Good to know. I assumed it should be fine but we all know about assumptions.
Incidentally, when writing that post, I did some quick checking and I'm sure I found reference to some lacto strains surviving north of 77, hence the caveat ( not sure which strains or for how long).

Haven't been able to find the study again though, so maybe it was a dream.


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## droid (9/2/17)

^clouds in your coffee?


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## A3k (9/2/17)

[SIZE=medium]I did a few experiments mashing in cold with the aim of overnight brewing, but I struggled with the circulation and had enough stuck mashes that I didn’t have enough confidence to do it whilst away from it. Not major stuck mashes, but needed manual intervention.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This may be different on a Braumeister or GrainFather though. My mash tun is a keg with false bottom, with a HERMS and controller I made. I also get my homebrew shop to mill my grain, and haven’t played around with milling. If I get a stuck mash, my element could run flat-out and cause a boilover of the heat exchanger.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I hadn’t thought about keeping it at 78 before though. It does open up a few opportunities.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Cheers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Al[/SIZE]


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## Stouter (9/2/17)

Coldspace said:


> a reason I got my bro to invest in a gf and another kegmenter , so we can keep up..


Well done with getting your Brother to invest in a Girlfriend and another kegmenter. Great investment there.
I keep telling my Brother that he can never have too many Girlfriends and kegmenters, he just calls me a fool, as you may well do also.


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## Moad (9/2/17)

Well I hit targets exactly, no extra efficiency gained but I did brew this as a "concentrated" no chill so didn't have the same ratio of sparge water to strike water as I normally would.

Combined with no chill it made for an extremely efficient brew day and will definitely be running it again...regularly.


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## Moad (31/3/17)

Setting this up again tonight reminded me of this thread. I think my beers came out a little drier but I'm pleased with everything I've brewed using this method so far. This with no chill has cut brew days right down for me. Considering it took me 3 hours to prep the brewery and mill grain, any time saving is welcome


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## Coldspace (31/3/17)

Yeah , I've been time poor last 7 month, work, family......
This has saved my marriage lol and works good enough for most of my staples.
Setup, mash in fri night, boil, hops cube first up sat morning. Done....


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## Lionman (6/4/17)

The Brewie looks like a good machine for time poor home brewers.


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## damoninja (6/4/17)

FWIW, I don't particularly try to shave time off of my brew day but I do it where I can without modifying my processes. 

One thing that I have done is fill up my electric HLT with water and place it on a timer so it comes on a few hours before I wake up in the morning, strike water being ready to go, I mash in and I'm away. Gas will heat a lot faster, but electric completely shaves the time away all together.

Mash in, I get my sparge water heating, hops ready, fementer sanitised, pump cleaned, chiller prepped before boil time.


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