# Using Out Of Date Extract



## Paulielow (14/2/12)

I got a tin of Thomas cooper amber malt extract and date of manufacture was 2008 and there's a little surface rust around the edges of the tin, is it still ok to use or is it safer to toss it and buy fresh?


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## manticle (14/2/12)

I don't think there's anything that can kill you but you would make better beer with fresher ingredients.


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## Paulielow (14/2/12)

I'm more concerned about ruining my beer than dieing... B)


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## petesbrew (14/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> I'm more concerned about ruining my beer than dieing... B)


I've brewed with some cans 2yrs out of date.
They weren't my best beers.

Basically, don't plan any special beers with them.


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## QldKev (14/2/12)

It's simple, if you want shit beer, use shit ingredients.

I don't think it will kill you as I have heard people doing it before, but do you really want to save $10 and drink completely crap beer.


QldKev


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## MaltyHops (14/2/12)

Use it for yeast starters - about a tablespoon would be enough for a 500mL
starter, put remainder into tupperware tubs and into freezer (they probably
won't actually but enough to keep bugs away).


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## Pennywise (14/2/12)

If you're going to use it, use it in a Stout. Something that will at least try and hide any staleness and the darkening of the wort wont matter. Throw some fresh grain in to the mix and you might get away with it. My 2c


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## Paulielow (14/2/12)

MaltyHops said:


> Use it for yeast starters - about a tablespoon would be enough for a 500mL
> starter, put remainder into tupperware tubs and into freezer *(they probably
> won't actually but enough to keep bugs away).*


What? And secondly I was thinking of using it for starters.... Any opinions,


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## kewdogs (14/2/12)

Hi paulielow , I carried a can of coopers around for close to 12 years bought at Safeway in 1995 and when i did the kit and kilo thing ,the end result was a very mellow easy drinking malty lager ,I will say though it was a very deep golden/copper color and in no way fitted the style I was trying for ,sigh, and yes at the time I was attempting to produce vb or fosters or something
Ps has any body got an old can lying around in the garage or pantry let's say over 10 years, that they could brew and have tested by a beer judge?


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## stux (14/2/12)

I would say that hopped extract is a different beast to unhopped extract. With the hopped extract the hops will have faded deep into the background.

Eitherway, expect the extract to be much darker than it was when fresh.

A stout would be a good option


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## Paulielow (14/2/12)

QldKev said:


> *It's simple, if you want shit beer, use shit ingredients.*
> 
> I don't think it will kill you as I have heard people doing it before, but do you really want to save $10 and drink completely crap beer.
> 
> ...



That's what I was trying to avoid


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## going down a hill (14/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> I'm more concerned about ruining my beer than dieing... B)


That is the toughest thing I have read on the internet today.


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## Paulielow (14/2/12)

going down a hill said:


> That is the toughest thing I have read on the internet today.



Well we all gotta die sometime, I just don't want to drink shitty beer while I'm waiting...


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## Paulielow (14/2/12)

I decided to use this to make a starter and see how that goes first rather than ruining a full batch of beer, so when I opened the tin it let out a pssssh and is pretty dark so well see what happens....


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## MaltyHops (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> MaltyHops said:
> 
> 
> > Use it for yeast starters - about a tablespoon would be enough for a 500mL
> ...


Oops! Guess I left out "freeze"


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

MaltyHops said:


> What? And secondly I was thinking of using it for starters.... Any opinions,
> Oops! Guess I left out "freeze"



Ok now it makes sense.

The starter I made with this is bubbling away looking pretty strong but its a bit dark for the beer I plan on making so I think ill cold crash it and pour off the wort. One night should be long enough to produce enough yeast shouldn't it?


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## petesbrew (15/2/12)

Pennywise said:


> If you're going to use it, use it in a Stout. Something that will at least try and hide any staleness and the darkening of the wort wont matter. Throw some fresh grain in to the mix and you might get away with it. My 2c


I like this idea. Throw it in with the infamous toucan stout/dark mix and you're laughing


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## Ross (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> Ok now it makes sense.
> 
> The starter I made with this is bubbling away looking pretty strong but its a bit dark for the beer I plan on making so I think ill cold crash it and pour off the wort. One night should be long enough to produce enough yeast shouldn't it?




What size starter? What yeast did you start with? What beer type/strength is it going into? other wise your question might as well be... how long is a piece of string? 
Give some info & more experienced brewers will be able to give you the advice you seek.


cheers Ross


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> What size starter? What yeast did you start with? What beer type/strength is it going into? other wise your question might as well be... how long is a piece of string?
> Give some info & more experienced brewers will be able to give you the advice you seek.
> 
> 
> cheers Ross


Starter was 150ml extract, 800ml water, 2 hop pellets boiled for 15min then added 300ml of cold sanitised water then cooled in ice bath. Put into sanitised 2L port bottle, shook the crap out of it, pitched yeast(t-58) and swirled and covered with sanitised all foil. Have been swirl every hour or two. It's going into a 4.2% kolsch style(I know not traditional style) about 25L which I will be fermenting in an ice bath since its so damn hot.


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> What size starter? What yeast did you start with? What beer type/strength is it going into? other wise your question might as well be... how long is a piece of string?
> Give some info & more experienced brewers will be able to give you the advice you seek.
> 
> 
> cheers Ross


Starter was 150ml extract, 800ml water, 2 hop pellets boiled for 15min then added 300ml of cold sanitised water then cooled in ice bath. Put into sanitised 2L port bottle, shook the crap out of it, pitched yeast(t-58) and swirled and covered with sanitised all foil. Have been swirl every hour or two. It's going into a 4.2% kolsch style(I know not traditional style) about 25L which I will be fermenting in an ice bath since its so damn hot.


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## Ross (15/2/12)

Ok.... For approx 25L of 4.2% beer, you could have quite happily pitched the dry yeast direct, pretty pointless going to all that effort on the starter front, especially as you're using very "old" extract. In answer to your question, 1 night should be fine as you already have enough yeast (unless it was well past it's used by date). You won't get a Kolsch style yeast using T-58 but assuming you probably know that.

Good to see you working at making starters etc & expoloring new yeasts, but seriously, get yourself some temperature control, use fresh ingredients & get the basics right first, if you want to make good beer.


Cheers Ross


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> Ok.... For approx 25L of 4.2% beer, you could have quite happily pitched the dry yeast direct, pretty pointless going to all that effort on the starter front, especially as you're using very "old" extract. In answer to your question, 1 night should be fine as you already have enough yeast (unless it was well past it's used by date). You won't get a Kolsch style yeast using T-58 but assuming you probably know that.
> 
> Good to see you working at making starters etc & expoloring new yeasts, but seriously, get yourself some temperature control, use fresh ingredients & get the basics right first, if you want to make good beer.
> 
> ...



Yep I know it won't be an actual kolsch but I couldn't get the correct t kolsch yeast and had read that t-58 will be ok but not exact, yeast is fresh (bought it yesterday) but I can't drive atm and usually can't leave the house so I wanted to make some vials of yeast up for future use, hence the starter. I know the extract is old which is why I was going to cc and pour off the wort so as not to add the old extract to my fresh ingredients.


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## MaltyHops (15/2/12)

Just to add to Ross' post, dry yeast could be pitched direct or rehydrated with
plain (boiled & cooled) water first.

Not sure if you're already well ware of all this but as has been discussed around
here, dry yeasts have been prepared ready to go when pitched and making a
starter can actually hold them back somewhat.

Once you start using liquid yeasts or reuse saved yeast (from this batch of t-58 say)
or grow your own collection of yeasts, you definitely need to make starters.

There are lots of online tools that:
* help calculate how many billions of yeast cells needed for a particular brew
based on volume & OG
* how much yeast you can grow from a starter volume & wort gravity

I like the the calculator linked from _THIS_ post which you can save the page to local
disk and seems to work offline.

One thing to keep in mind is the amount of yeast that can be grown depends on
how much food/barley sugars is in the starter(s) - see _THIS_.



Paulielow said:


> Starter was 150ml extract, 800ml water, 2 hop pellets boiled for 15min ...


Adding hops is not needed and bit of a waste.


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## Ross (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> Yep I know it won't be an actual kolsch but I couldn't get the correct t kolsch yeast and had read that t-58 will be ok but not exact, yeast is fresh (bought it yesterday) but I can't drive atm and usually can't leave the house so I wanted to make some vials of yeast up for future use, hence the starter. I know the extract is old which is why I was going to cc and pour off the wort so as not to add the old extract to my fresh ingredients.




Paulielow...it will be nothing like a Kolsch, probably close to the worst choice of dried yeast for this style. T-58 will give Belgian style flavours/aromas, spicy with some banana.
K-97 would have been a far better choice or even good old reliable US-05. Hopefully will turn out great though, just be aware of what you'll end up with.

cheers Ross


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> Paulielow...it will be nothing like a Kolsch, probably close to the worst choice of dried yeast for this style. T-58 will give Belgian style flavours/aromas, spicy with some banana.
> K-97 would have been a far better choice or even good old reliable US-05. Hopefully will turn out great though, just be aware of what you'll end up with.
> 
> cheers Ross



Well us-05 is next on the list so should I just make up my vials and store this away and use the 05 instead? Couldn't get k-97 either... Also I thought a Belgian style yeast was required for kolsch instead that what t-58 is?


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## almopec (15/2/12)

If its not too late.
I used an old can of extract to experiment with, for lager creation and techniques a while back. Probably not the best style to be aiming for, but none the less it was an experiment. 
Anyhow its not my best beer, but its drinkable and it was an experiment. So not a big loss in my books.


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## petesbrew (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> Well us-05 is next on the list so should I just make up my vials and store this away and use the 05 instead? Couldn't get k-97 either... Also I thought a Belgian style yeast was required for kolsch instead that what t-58 is?


What's your actual recipe, Paulielow?
Just interested, that's all.

US-05 is a good one to keep stored in the fridge. Very useful yeast.
T-58, I've only used it a few times, but it went well in a belgian golden strong ale (but took 6months aging to come good).


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

petesbrew said:


> What's your actual recipe, Paulielow?
> Just interested, that's all.
> 
> US-05 is a good one to keep stored in the fridge. Very useful yeast.
> T-58, I've only used it a few times, but it went well in a belgian golden strong ale (but took 6months aging to come good).



25L batch

1.5kg tin TC light LME
1kg extra light DME
500g dextrose
40g saaz 4%@60
20g hallertau 3%@30
10g hallertau 3%@15
T-58(but probably us-05 now) 
1 whirlfloc [email protected]

15L water to boil then add tin of LME , boil till hot break then start timer, saaz at 60min, first hallertau at 30min, then last at 15min, add rest of fermentables at flame out and cool in ice bath then into the fermenter and topped up with cold filtered water out of the fridge. Shake the shit out of it add yeast starter shake again add airlock ferment in bathtub full of water and frozen bottles aiming for between 18-20oC for 3 weeks then cold crash 3 weeks in fridge and add finings 2 days before bottling and leave it alone for a few months.


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## manticle (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> Well us-05 is next on the list so should I just make up my vials and store this away and use the 05 instead? Couldn't get k-97 either... Also I thought a Belgian style yeast was required for kolsch instead that what t-58 is?



Kolsch is a german beer, originating in Koln


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

manticle said:


> Kolsch is a german beer, originating in Koln



I should have paid more attention in geography I guess... Oh well any suggestions on what to use the t-58 for? Or will the above recipe still make a nice beer using t-58


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## manticle (15/2/12)

Haven't used it mate. Mixed reports abound - I tend to stick to liquid yeasts.


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

T-58 is pretty average. It's a little like W1762, but not really in a good way. A bit like using US05 and adding peppercorns.

US05 makes a "Kolschy" beer, especially if you ferment it in the early 20s and it gets a tiny bit fruity.


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> T-58 is pretty average. It's a little like W1762, but not really in a good way. A bit like using US05 and adding peppercorns.
> 
> US05 makes a "Kolschy" beer, especially if you ferment it in the early 20s and it gets a tiny bit fruity.



Might just make up some vials and use it for strong ales and wheat beer then.. ill start the us-05 tommorrow..


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## Ross (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> I should have paid more attention in geography I guess... Oh well any suggestions on what to use the t-58 for? Or will the above recipe still make a nice beer using t-58




Despite Nicks "pretty average" comments, it's a great yeast. But like with all yeast it's knowing how to use it & in what beer.
In 2009 Andrew Clark brewed a Belgian strong ale with t-58 that took out Champion beer of show in the Qld State Championships. The beer was judged by Ian Watson (highly respected Belgian Beer brewer/lover/judge) who reckoned it was the finest homebrewed beer he'd ever drunk - Not bad with a pretty average yeast - LOL

Cheers Ross

edit; dropped the e off clarke


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> Despite Nicks "pretty average" comments, it's a great yeast. But like with all yeast it's knowing how to use it & in what beer.
> In 2009 Andrew Clark brewed a Belgian strong ale with t-58 that took out Champion beer of show in the Qld State Championships. The beer was judged by Ian Watson (highly respected Belgian Beer brewer/lover/judge) who reckoned it was the finest homebrewed beer he'd ever drunk - Not bad with a pretty average yeast - LOL
> 
> Cheers Ross
> ...



Belgian strong ale ah..... Might have to look into that one, cheers.


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## enuun (15/2/12)

i normally buy old cans from my LHBS whenever they have a clearance
and I use them either heavily hopped or as a toucan. 
Its fine. But you will not be impressed


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> Despite Nicks "pretty average" comments, it's a great yeast. But like with all yeast it's knowing how to use it & in what beer.
> In 2009 Andrew Clark brewed a Belgian strong ale with t-58 that took out Champion beer of show in the Qld State Championships. The beer was judged by Ian Watson (highly respected Belgian Beer brewer/lover/judge) who reckoned it was the finest homebrewed beer he'd ever drunk - Not bad with a pretty average yeast - LOL
> 
> Cheers Ross
> ...



There you go Paulie - use T58 and you'll win competitions. Easy.

Or it could be that Andrew's skills are mainly responsible? I'm sure that's what Ross meant to say.

I'd like to know of a yeast that hasn't been used to win a competition at some point...

And where do I get some french oak?  

I still think it's a pretty average yeast. Maybe I just don't like peppery beer.


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## Ross (15/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> There you go Paulie - use T58 and you'll win competitions. Easy.
> 
> Or it could be that Andrew's skills are mainly responsible? I'm sure that's what Ross meant to say. Not what I meant to say at all, but he knows how to use the yeast & has done so on many occaisions with great results.
> 
> ...




Cheers Ross


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## manticle (15/2/12)

Was that a golden strong with Oak? (Andrew Clarke as in AndrewQLD?)

If so, I tried a version when I won a beer lotto.

Damn tasty.


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> Cheers Ross



1st Angus Williams 109.5 VIC 15.2 Belgian Golden Strong Ale Wy1214 1079 1011 242
2nd Craig Webber 107.5 ACT 15.2 Belgian Golden Strong Ale 1079 244
3rd David Clarke 102.5 QLD 15.5 Belgian Dark Strong Ale Wy3787 1085 1016 148
4 Brenton Rehn 102 SA 15.1 Belgian Blonde Ale 1067 321
5 Andrew Clark 101 VIC 15.2 Belgian Golden Strong Ale* T-58* 1076 1012 161
6 Stu Whytcross 99 ACT 15.4 Dubbel Wy3522 1065 1018 298
7 Bill Turner 98.5 ACT 15.5 Belgian Dark Strong Ale WLP530 1096 1034 296
8 Liam Ahearn 96.5 QLD 15.3 Tripel Wy3787 1075 1012 104
9 Grant Stott 93 VIC 15.4 Dubbel Wy3522 1066 1012 234
10 Michael Meissner 91 NSW 15.1 Belgian Blonde Ale Wy3538PC 1075 359
11 William Steudler 90 WA 15.1 Belgian Blonde Ale Wy3739PC 1048 1008 287
12 Andrew Squire 89.5 NSW 15.5 Belgian Dark Strong Ale Wy1388 1081 180
13 Anthony King 88.5 SA 15.1 Belgian Blonde Ale T-58&Wy3787 1070 1012 126
14 Jared Birbeck 86.5 SA 15.5 Belgian Dark Strong Ale Wy1762 1071 266
15 Paul Hyatt 84 WA 15.4 Dubbel Wy1214 1068 1012 140
16 Perry Burt 79 QLD 15.4 Dubbel Wy3864PC 1078 1020 152
17 Clinton Mitchell 70 WA 15.4 Dubbel Wy3522 1070 1012 196

I'd say this above shows it's not a very popular choice for the style. Because it's pretty average.  Would have been better to use what the winner used ... but Andrew is a genius for making a winning beer with T58, what with it being a yeast no one else chooses, because it's pretty average.

Nah -  I just don't prefer it to the estery, phenolicy belgian yeasts that nearly everyone in the above list used - probably for the same reasons they had to not choose it. It's averageness.


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## manticle (15/2/12)

Where's that list from Nick? I'm pretty sure there's an Andrew Clarke from QLD and an Andrew Clark from VIC (as that guy is - possible coincidence).

I believe he's from Bayside Brewers and has won/placed in a few comps.


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

manticle said:


> Where's that list from Nick? I'm pretty sure there's an Andrew Clarke from QLD and an Andrew Clark from VIC (as that guy is - possible coincidence).
> 
> I believe he's from Bayside Brewers and has won/placed in a few comps.



Not sure mate. I know you also prefer 1762 for belgians, so I can see you liking the T58 flavours.

EDIT: list is from AABC 2010 IIRC. Is there something about being called Andrew Clark(e) and using T58? Is this some kind of doppleganger conspiracy? Who is this masked man?


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## Ross (15/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> 1st Angus Williams 109.5 VIC 15.2 Belgian Golden Strong Ale Wy1214 1079 1011 242
> 2nd Craig Webber 107.5 ACT 15.2 Belgian Golden Strong Ale 1079 244
> 3rd David Clarke 102.5 QLD 15.5 Belgian Dark Strong Ale Wy3787 1085 1016 148
> 4 Brenton Rehn 102 SA 15.1 Belgian Blonde Ale 1067 321
> ...



Nic you are a scream at times.... you must have so much free time on your hands to go desperately searching for something to try & back up your arguments. But as so often happens you just make yourself look like a bit of a dick (I mean that in a nice way) extracting information that doesn't back you up at all, rather than accepting its not only your opinion that counts.

You've searched to find Andrew Clark not winning with T-58 & have pulled a totally different guy - Classic LOL. T-58 Has also featured pretty well equally in your list of winning beers & has outpointed many classic liquid strains, so again supports the quality of the yeast. Andrew Clarks beer from Qld was a gold medal beer & one that relied heavily on the yeast profile, that does not happen from using poor yeast. There's nothing wrong with you not liking a particular yeast, I don't partiularly like wy3333, but it doesnt make it a bad yeast.

cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

Ross said:


> Nic you are a scream at times.... you must have so much free time on your hands...



Yup, not working at 6pm. Just trying to keep one step ahead of Batz's delete button. 

Who are these Andrew Clarks, Ross? My "desperate" search took 3 seconds on google.


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## manticle (15/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> I know you also prefer 1762 for belgians, so I can see you liking the T58 flavours.



Actually I've only used 1762 once (and I'm drinking a glass right now). My yeast choice depends entirely on what I'm brewing, one main reason why I stick to liquids as the variety is much better and more specific. The belgian I pronbably have fallen back on most is 1388. Have used 1214 a few times and got more banana than I'd care for but I will revisit now I've changed my recipes and mash schedules and finally seem to be producing some decent Belgian styles.

I've avoided t-58 so far because it seems to be a generic 'belgian' yeast rather than a specific dubbel/tripel/golden strong/chimay/rochefort type deal which I can get from the liquids.

I wouldn't decsribe the beer I'm drinking at the moment with 1762 as amazingly peppery but it did have cacao nibs and raisins in secondary. There's also a lot of alcohol warmth.


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

manticle said:


> I've avoided t-58 so far because it seems to be a generic 'belgian' yeast rather than a specific dubbel/tripel/golden strong/chimay/rochefort type deal which I can get from the liquids.



My thoughts exactly. It's "average".

But then again, I'm beginning to think I completely misjudged T58...

...or Ross has a whole bunch of it that's close to expiry date.


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## bradsbrew (15/2/12)

Please try to keep this thread as close to on topic as possible. 

For the record its not Batz' finger also I believe the 2009 best of show was a strong belgian entered as a specialty because it was oak aged. If you want clarification check out the QABC website and look up the 2009 results.


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## Nick JD (15/2/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Please try to keep this thread as close to on topic as possible.



Sorry mate. Back on topic.

Don't use old extract. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (15/2/12)

I'm not suggesting the yeast itself is average as I've never used it. You have though so your experience counts for something.

To be fair, I prefer liquid over dried simply because of the variety and that's with all yeasts. It's not a criticism of dried, it's a preference for more specificity.

There are ingredients I don't like (mainly certain hops) but for me it comes down to personal taste and/or inappropriate use than quality of ingredient (that said I think weyerman munich is a lot nicer than JW munich, though some may disagree).

@bradsbrew: I know it's a little bit off topic but since it is a yeast the OP has intentions of using, a little bit of discussion about it is surely not too off key?

There's no pictures of nanny goats in bikinis etc.


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## bradsbrew (15/2/12)

manticle said:


> @bradsbrew: I know it's a little bit off topic but since it is a yeast the OP has intentions of using, a little bit of discussion about it is surely not too off key?
> 
> There's no pictures of nanny goats in bikinis etc.




Manticle, yes it has gone off topic and morphed into a yeast topic which seems to the OP's benefit which is good. I have only cleaned up the tit for tat arguing that has no brewing benefit to the forum readers.

cheers


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## Paulielow (15/2/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Manticle, yes it has gone off topic and morphed into a yeast topic which seems to the OP's benefit which is good. I have only cleaned up the tit for tat arguing that has no brewing benefit to the forum readers.
> 
> cheers



Thanks brad... You got anything to add about t-58 while your here?


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## bradsbrew (15/2/12)

Paulielow said:


> Thanks brad... You got anything to add about t-58 while your here?


Mate havn't got alot to add as I have not used it myself but have tried a beer bribie brought to a brewday a while ago that he used T-58 in and it was a subtle belgian that wasn't phenolic and in your face and I enjoyed it. The only belgian yeast I have used is 3787 and I have had some good results with that.

Cheers


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## MHB (15/2/12)

Personally I think its the best choice among the dry yeasts for dark/strong Belgian.
The peppery flavours are accentuated by low pitch rates, higher fermentation temperatures and the amount of O2 in solution, Low O2 really steps up the pepper (lets not have the dry yeast doesnt need aeration discussion, not talking about yeast reproduction or not directly)
Conversely I find it a very clean if occasionally prone to throwing some brandy wine flavours if its brewer near the bottom of the temp range, well pitch into an O2 rich wort.
For some reason I keep getting hints of Osborne Brandy in the best examples of dark strong brewer with T-58.
On the old extract, the most common fault laid ascribed to old extract is a Tinny or metallic flavour; I wouldnt use old extract for anything including making starters

Mark


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## Nick JD (16/2/12)

MHB said:


> Personally I think its the best choice among the dry yeasts for dark/strong Belgian.



What are the other dry yeast choices?


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## MHB (16/2/12)

Well without thinking about it too hard S-33, a bit of a surprise but K-96 (actually its pretty much an archetypical yeast and can do lots of strange stuff) a couple from Brewferm, (have been available in Australia on occasion) Blanche and Top, apparently their Lager works really well in Belgian Golden at Ale temperatures.
A lot of it is how the yeast is used and if you manipulate the conditions quite a few common yeasts will taste very Belgian under the right conditions not a dry yeast but Coopers commercial (i.e. from a bottle) brewed warm, fed a lot of sugar and stressed a bit can be downright continental.
M


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## freezkat (16/2/12)

MHB said:


> Well without thinking about it too hard S-33, a bit of a surprise but K-96 (actually it's pretty much an archetypical yeast and can do lots of strange stuff) a couple from Brewferm, (have been available in Australia on occasion) Blanche and Top, apparently their Lager works really well in Belgian Golden at Ale temperatures.
> A lot of it is how the yeast is used and if you manipulate the conditions quite a few common yeasts will taste very Belgian under the right conditions – not a dry yeast but Coopers commercial (i.e. from a bottle) brewed warm, fed a lot of sugar and stressed a bit can be downright continental.
> M



I'm not a huge fan of s-33. It died real early on a high gravity IPA I made in August

I'll let you know in a couple weeks what I think. I have a very underhopped dark and amber using t-58. It should let me know what t-58 is all about.

And for both recipes I am using out of date extract. Hows that for reeling it back in?


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