# Blue Willow Jerry Cans Are They Food Grade?



## beerdrinkingbob (23/10/10)

Hi,

Before i go out and buy another jerry can does anyone know if the blue willow jerry cans are they food grade? 

Can't find the triangular arrows with the 2 in the middle, so thinking i should stop racking in it. I also thought i saw some blue dye in the water when i pored it out today after soaking it in napisan :unsure: .

Sucks to have wasted the money but such is life i guess, anyone go any Intel on this one?

Cheers Bob


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## Nick JD (23/10/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Hi,
> 
> Before i go out and buy another jerry can does anyone know if the blue willow jerry cans are they food grade?
> 
> ...



You mean this range of carry cans?

http://www.willow.com.au/carry_cans.html

I would hope they are food safe - I'm thinking if they are designed for drinking water. However, I don't put boiling wort in them, and that might make a difference to their "food safe" rating.


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## beerdrinkingbob (23/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> You mean this range of carry cans?
> 
> http://www.willow.com.au/carry_cans.html
> 
> I would hope they are food safe - I'm thinking if they are designed for drinking water. However, I don't put boiling wort in them, and that might make a difference to their "food safe" rating.




That's them nick i have the 20 ltr one (item 6179), thought the whole water thing would have it covered too but I'm not so sure now


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## Pumpy (23/10/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Hi,
> 
> Before i go out and buy another jerry can does anyone know if the blue willow jerry cans are they food grade?
> 
> ...



Bob ,

Yes they are but they tend to sag with hot wort if you using for' no Chilling your wort ,I prefer the whhite cubes as they are easier to stack we just got some 20 litre cubes for $8.32 we had to buty about 50 but between us it was a good saving .

Buy the ones without the tap hole drilled as it can be a source of infection Pumpy


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## drtomc (26/10/10)

I'm using them for secondary/conditioning. I replaced the bung with a tap without looking, and went to rack onto sugar for bulk priming.

Turn tap on. Nothing happens.

Scratch head. Still nothing happens.

Look at spare jerry can. Ah.

Gotta love the autosyphon.

T.


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## np1962 (26/10/10)

drtomc said:


> I'm using them for secondary/conditioning. I replaced the bung with a tap without looking, and went to rack onto sugar for bulk priming.
> 
> Turn tap on. Nothing happens.
> 
> ...


Almost did the same thing, went to use one for lagering so fitted tap.
Poured sanitiser in, opened tap, nothing!
Removed tap, not blocked with anything, look in bung hole. Click! Spade bit does the trick. :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (26/10/10)

I have a white Willow Jerry that I bought over 2 years ago before they turned blue. Then I bought 3 blue ones for lagering / cold crashing. When I bought the second urn I co-opted one of the blue ones into service as a no chill cube. I notice no difference from the white one and no colour leaching etc. I should imagine you would brew up more aldehydes, fusel oils and other nasties in your average beer than you could leach out of a cube in many brews.


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## raven19 (26/10/10)

+1 to them being great for secondary.

I would not be no chilling in them though as the sides would warp something fierce being rectangular.


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## argon (26/10/10)

raven19 said:


> +1 to them being great for secondary.
> 
> I would not be no chilling in them though as the sides would warp something fierce being rectangular.



Yep i've used them for no chill and they do have a mean warp to them. They still stand up though.


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## Dazza_devil (26/10/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Can't find the triangular arrows with the 2 in the middle, so thinking i should stop racking in it.




I just recently purchased one of those white 20 litre pails and it has a recycle symbol with a 5 in it.
Here's a bit of info I found on the different numbers in the symbol http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/l...plastics-460321 
The 5 rating looks the go for hot liquids, polypropylene has a high melting point apparently. I would probably avoid number 3 plastic or PVC.
My pail has a very good air-tight lid with it and only 13 bux, would make a pretty good primary or secondary fermentation vessel too. I'm using it to sparge in at the moment. I could even turn it into a fully modified lauter tun.


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## manticle (26/10/10)

I no chill in them all the time. Foodsafe as any other plastic cube as far as I know.

I had one split after quite a few brews. Have two more. Tap shouldn't be a source of infection if you clean it properly.

Also good for secondary and even use as a fermenter.


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## Howlingdog (26/10/10)

BribieG said:


> I have a white Willow Jerry that I bought over 2 years ago before they turned blue. Then I bought 3 blue ones for lagering / cold crashing. When I bought the second urn I co-opted one of the blue ones into service as a no chill cube. I notice no difference from the white one and no colour leaching etc. I should imagine you would brew up more aldehydes, fusel oils and other nasties in your average beer than you could leach out of a cube in many brews.




You must have had it for a long time. I've had my blue one since 1999 when I started making cheese and used to go to Barambah Milk to get my milk in bulk. I would drop them in in the afternoon and pick them up at 6:00 am the next morning after they had done the bottlin run.

HD


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## MarkBastard (26/10/10)

I use one as my no chill cube. No issues whatsoever including with the structural integrity of the cube.


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## argon (26/10/10)

argon said:


> Yep i've used them for no chill and they do have a mean warp to them. They still stand up though.






Mark^Bastard said:


> I use one as my no chill cube. No issues whatsoever including with the structural integrity of the cube.



Actually i must say that the warping was probably caused mostly by under filling and trying to squeeze too much air out. Only used once and filled each with 15L of hot wort then squeezed out excess air.

Same thing happened with a fresh wort kit cube i under filled... never got it's shape back. Hopefully the blue cube will come back... maybe fill it with some boiling water and let it soften up again?


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## Thirsty Boy (26/10/10)

actually - thats exactly why I like them better than the more cubic cubes... they are heaps easier to squeeze the air out of. Lean em up against a wall and put in the knee. heaps easier than my squarish one to get almost every last bit of air to come out.

Mine have required a reasonable amount (3 - 5 repeats) of being filled with boiling water and allowed to cool down overnight - before the water stopped tasting different at the end of the process. I wouldn't use a cube if I had any doubt it was flavour neutral - and I know 100% for sure that mine, the white square and the blue willow... all did leave a noticeable taste in the water. Once broken in though... perfect.


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## beerdrinkingbob (26/10/10)

They are a good deal and very handy as pointed out.

Think it is interesting they don't have the symbol on them, anyway looks like i will keep on using it though :icon_cheers: based on popular opinion.

Cheers Bob


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## Dazza_devil (26/10/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> actually - thats exactly why I like them better than the more cubic cubes... they are heaps easier to squeeze the air out of. Lean em up against a wall and put in the knee. heaps easier than my squarish one to get almost every last bit of air to come out.
> 
> Mine have required a reasonable amount (3 - 5 repeats) of being filled with boiling water and allowed to cool down overnight - before the water stopped tasting different at the end of the process. I wouldn't use a cube if I had any doubt it was flavour neutral - and I know 100% for sure that mine, the white square and the blue willow... all did leave a noticeable taste in the water. Once broken in though... perfect.




Funny you should mention that.
I've been using my blue willow cube for putting boiled then cooled water in for my extract brews for some time now. I put it in the fridge and it helps get to pitching temps when I top up my wort. Today I tried a sample of the water from it that was used for my last brew and it tastes a little bit tangy. It's been in the cube for almost a week so not sure if it's avoidable at that length of time. My cube has never had boiling water in it so I think I might try your trick of 3-5 repeats with boiling water overnight for a flavour neutral water. 
It's been soaked in pink, napisan, PBW and rinsed with hot and cold water in the past but never boiling water.


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## argon (26/10/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Mine have required a reasonable amount (3 - 5 repeats) of being filled with boiling water and allowed to cool down overnight - before the water stopped tasting different at the end of the process. I wouldn't use a cube if I had any doubt it was flavour neutral - and I know 100% for sure that mine, the white square and the blue willow... all did leave a noticeable taste in the water. Once broken in though... perfect.




Bugger... i bought mine after i found that the thread/lid in one of my old cubes didn't seal up anymore and another caught an infection. I realised that i had only 2 left and needed 4 while i was boiling my wort, so quickly went down the Bunnings and bought 2 blue cubes. Gave em a clean with PBW and 70C water straight from the HLT. Shook em up and let them sit for half hour or so before sanitising, then filled with hot wort. Only pitched the first cube full last night. Hopefully i don't get any plasticy flavours in the latest batch then. :unsure:


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## bcp (26/10/10)

From Choice.


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## Nick JD (26/10/10)

bcp said:


> View attachment 41677
> 
> 
> From Choice.



I wonder if those guidelines have tested them for 100C liquids?


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## bcp (26/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I wonder if those guidelines have tested them for 100C liquids?



PET, PVC & HDPE do not like temps beyond about 70C.
LDPE - dunno. Probably the same. 
PS - irrelevant. At least i don't use a polystyrene container for no chill, maybe some creative bastard is doing it to spite us all. 
PP is stable until about 200C. Might be the weapon of choice. 

But couldn't say for sure that the testing this represents informs us about toxins - i think it's more about basic stability.


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## felten (27/10/10)

Bought a jerrycan on Monday, cleaned it up incl boiling water and letting it cool overnight, cant taste anything noticeable.


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## MarkBastard (27/10/10)

argon said:


> Actually i must say that the warping was probably caused mostly by under filling and trying to squeeze too much air out. Only used once and filled each with 15L of hot wort then squeezed out excess air.
> 
> Same thing happened with a fresh wort kit cube i under filled... never got it's shape back. Hopefully the blue cube will come back... maybe fill it with some boiling water and let it soften up again?




Well mine obviously 'warps' when I use my knee to squeeze it, but then once I open the lid it goes almost back to normal shape again. When I put hot wort into it the sides sag outways and I reckon if instead of capping it I poured the hot wort out it'd go completely back to normal.

In fact mine would almost be completely normal right now without me doing anything I reckon (from memory).

It's pretty thick plastic compared to some other cubes with those structural grooves built in. High quality cube I reckon.


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## argon (27/10/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Well mine obviously 'warps' when I use my knee to squeeze it, but then once I open the lid it goes almost back to normal shape again. When I put hot wort into it the sides sag outways and I reckon if instead of capping it I poured the hot wort out it'd go completely back to normal.
> 
> In fact mine would almost be completely normal right now without me doing anything I reckon (from memory).
> 
> It's pretty thick plastic compared to some other cubes with those structural grooves built in. High quality cube I reckon.




Might try that tonight... i need to make up some pre-boiled water anyway. So just use the cube to store it in. See if it bounces back into shape.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy (27/10/10)

felten said:


> Bought a jerrycan on Monday, cleaned it up incl boiling water and letting it cool overnight, cant taste anything noticeable.



The trick to really knowing.. Is blind triangle testing. Which is what I did. Not to a statistically valid level, but enough to give me good peace of mind.

Boil up 25L of water, fill your cube, and fill a very well cleaned and rinsed glass bottle from the same pot. Allow both to cool for 24 hrs.

Now label three glasses as A, B and C - Fill 1 with water from one of either the bottle or the cube, fill the other 2 with water from the other source. Now take them into another room, and then get someone else who hasn't seen you do the pouring to go in and taste the water. All they have to do is pick the odd glass out.

Now repeat a few times, mixing up which of the cube or the glass gets to be the odd one out. Then get who ever is tasting for you to swap places, and you taste three or four samples.

If you can pick the odd one out.... Then there is a difference between the water from glass, which we will assume is flavor neutral.. And the cube,, which obviously isn't. And i'd do something about that before I'd be happy to use the cube.

TB


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## drtomc (27/10/10)

For TBs process to be statistically significant (at a 99% confidence interval), you'd need to guess the right one in 5 out of 5 trials, 7 out of 8 trials but only 8 out of 10 trials. (For the geeks, that was based on a random guess null hypothesis, assuming a binomial process.)

T.


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## matr (27/10/10)

drtomc said:


> For TBs process to be statistically significant (at a 99% confidence interval), you'd need to guess the right one in 5 out of 5 trials, 7 out of 8 trials but only 8 out of 10 trials. (For the geeks, that was based on a random guess null hypothesis, assuming a binomial process.)
> 
> T.



6 Sigma (& stats in general) and Beer do NOT go well together

(I was hungover through most of my 6 Sigma Black belt training)

If you are involving DOE in your brewing practices or generating ANOVA tables to determine the P value to accept or reject the hypothesis then you need help!!! :blink: 

Cheers, Mat.


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## Thirsty Boy (27/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> ...if your tongue and nose is capable of detecting damaging (chronic) levels of chemicals.
> 
> Which it isn't.
> 
> ...



But I was referring to taste and smell Nick.. Not toxicity. It turns out the tongue and nose are, by a bizarre coincidence, quite good at taste and smell.

BTW - i'd go see a doctor about that eyelid twitch... You're probably frightening small children.


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## Nick JD (27/10/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> You're probably frightening small children.



I eats too much fish and ch ch ch chips.


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## gregs (27/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I eats too much fish and ch ch ch chips.




:icon_offtopic: Theses type of posts are useless and thread destroying, its like the person needs to be noticed or something. For Christ sake give it up.


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## Nick JD (27/10/10)

gregs said:


> :icon_offtopic: These's type of posts are useless and thread destroying, it's like the person needs to be noticed or something. For Christ sake give it up.



These's type of posts are useless and thread destroying, it's like the person needs to be noticed or something. For Christ sake give it up.

If that's all you have to add then you're worse than me. I'm particapating in the thread, you're just a whining sack of shit. 

These's H Ch Ch Ch Christ!


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## Silo Ted (27/10/10)

and there goes another once-interesting thread, into the mire at the hands of one of the terrible twins. Where is the moderater on ahb, is there one?


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## felten (27/10/10)

I fail to see how someone saying something off topic suddenly destroys a entire threads merit, all the previous info is still there.

Oh god now I've gone offtopic too /kill.


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## Nick JD (27/10/10)

Silo Ted said:


> and there goes another once-interesting thread, into the mire at the hands of one of the terrible twins. Where is the moderater on ahb, is there one?



I was just kidding around with Thirsty and numbnuts comes in with his swastika badge. 

Moderate the crap out of it I say. I sick of these people who want internet forums to be like The Army. 

:icon_offtopic: Nazis, **** off. This isn't a compilation of facts and data, it's life - and normal people joke about and disagree and get on with it.

It's the web-forum equivalent of one of those people who makes an illegal phonecall to the cops because someone went past them at 120km/h on the motorway. If it's got nothing to do with you ... let it go, tiger.


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## Dazza_devil (27/10/10)

bcp said:


> View attachment 41677
> 
> 
> From Choice.




So what sort of plastic are the blue willow jerry cans?


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## beerdrinkingbob (27/10/10)

felten said:


> I fail to see how someone saying something off topic suddenly destroys a entire threads merit, all the previous info is still there.
> 
> Oh god now I've gone offtopic too /kill.




agreed.


I actually sent an email to willow out of interest but nothing yet, off to thailand on friday so will have to wait three weeks to find out!!


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## Dazza_devil (3/11/10)

I sent them one too, just received this reply,

_'Thank you for your email. _

_I can confirm that our carry cans are made from HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) which does not contain BPA._

_The recycling rating for these products it 2._

_We strongly do not recommend using these containers to store boiling hot liquids._

_They were not designed for storing hot liquids and therefore we cannot confirm what the consequences would be. _

_Obviously it would be quite dangerous if they were to leak._

_We recommend looking in those drinking containers designed for hot liquids that can be found in some camping stores.'


_


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## manticle (3/11/10)

Most of the links I could find put the melting point of HDPE at somewhere around 130 deg C. One suggested 110 of continuous heat could be applied with no drama, temps of around 120 in short bursts.

Obviously says nothing about leaching etc but when it starts to reshape itself is when I personally would be getting worried Besides expansion and contaction (which all cubes do) mine seem to be holding shape pretty well. Use at own risk.


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## bcp (5/11/10)

Boagsy said:


> I sent them one too, just received this reply,
> 
> _'Thank you for your email. _
> 
> ...



that's funny, cos i sent one too before i saw beerdrinkinbob's post. They must've felt inundated with the same question from people all within about 10 minutes. Like, 10 years of silence, then...

I don't have any distortions from my blue willow 'cube' (jerry can is a better description). If i did i wouldn't be using it for no chill. Gradually i'd like to reduce plastic in my brewing and my life. I'm sure there are some plastics that do no harm, but the evidence is mounting against a whole range of plastics and the very real effects on the human body. 

From Nairobi. Just landed, found a little bar and had a tusker. (that's a beer in case you were thinking it was a really good bar).


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