# Ph Testing



## 65bellett (4/2/08)

So far I have a few All Grain brews under my belt and have not yet done a PH test on any of them. I have been doing a bit of reading about PH testing and have read that I may be able to improve my efficiency (my efficiency currently sit at about the mid 60% range) by adjusting the PH. 

What is the biggest factor in the PH moving to the wrong range? If I brew the same beer using the gear and ingredients that I have previously used and previously taken a ph reading of can I just assume that the ph reading will be the same both times.

How many of you out there do a PH reading every time you brew and how important do you think it is? What gadgets do you use to measure your PH, years ago when I was at school I can remember us using Litmus paper to test PH but after a quick search on the net I have seen some really cool digital PH metres. Are these devices worth the investment?

I know this is alot of questions and I appreciate any help you can give me. If this has already been covered else where (Ihad a quick look) please drop the link in.


65 B


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## Hutch (4/2/08)

G'day 65 B,

I've had a digital pH meter (I think similar to the ones sold by site sponsors) for about 6 months, and don't use it any more, now that I know my process is sound (water treatment, etc.). In fact, I find it a chore to use - takes a LONG time for the pH reading to settle, and it's also highly affected by temperature, and therfore gives unreliable results unless the wort/mash liquor has been cooled to 20deg... and this is after having meticulously calibrated it...

My advice would be to get some pH paper first, and use that to check your readings during mashing / sparging. This is a less expensive option, and you may find that it's only useful for a few brews to confirm your pH is under control.

Alternatively, there's a product called ph5.2 stabiliser (which I have never used, BTW) that many here rely on to acheive the right mash pH.
That might be worth considering too, if you find your pH too high.
Hutch.


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## Stuster (4/2/08)

I use pH test papers from one of the sponsors. They're very easy to use. I don't test every batch, but I've tested a few batches to see that the water additions I've used have worked to get the mash pH right and see how the mash pH is for darker beers, lighter beers etc. The colour of the grains you use will have a huge impact on mash pH, as will the kind of water you have. Palmer's How to Brew has great info on what to do to adjust your water (residual alkalinity rather than aiming for the water of particular cities), linky. He's got a good spreadsheet there that'll help you work out additions for your water. There's also good info here.


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## pint of lager (4/2/08)

There are already some very good posts here on pH.

Most people would agree though that the crush has the biggest effect on efficiency. Next is effective sparging. Look after these two points before starting on pH. If you really wish to address pH right now for peace of mind, just grab some of the 5.2 buffer from a supplier.

Water profiles and pH are necessary for the perfect brew, but they are tweaking around the edges. Get your crush, mash temp, runoff temp and sparging right before you move onto pH and water minerals.

Having a pH meter is a nice bit of bling, but it has to be maintained correctly and calibrated regularly. You need buffer solutions so you can calibrate it.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/08)

I use a pH meter every brew.The brewing Liqour I use ranges from 5.14 to just under 8 ph so I like to know whats going on and make adjustments .The readings I take are :
Brew liquor.
Liquor after additions if needed.
Mash pH
Mash after additions if needed.
Last runnings.
Wort in the kettle pre boil.
Post boil.
Finished wort after fermentation.
All are important to me and paint a picture of my process and hope fully any answers to any problems which occur.Way to many readings to start with but a simple mash pH will tell you a lot and set the remainder of your brewing and fermentation process up for best results.If you get 5.2 to 5.4 in the mash you are going to be ok.
GB


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## Darren (4/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I use a pH meter every brew.The brewing Liqour I use ranges from 5.14 to just under 8 ph so I like to know whats going on and make adjustments .GB




GB,

That is a 3 log change in pH which is quite a bit. Where are you sourcing your water? I would suggest some strips to ensure your meter is calibrated properly.

cheers

Darren


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/08)

Darren said:


> GB,
> 
> That is a 3 log change in pH which is quite a bit. Where are you sourcing your water? I would suggest some strips to ensure your meter is calibrated properly.
> 
> ...


No The meter is fine just had in checked and a new probe from Perth scientific supplys. I calibrate often . The meter actually tells me if it cant calibrate or if the probe is stuffed. Its not a cheapy. pH 5.14 is natural spring water straight from the ground and around pH 7.5- 8 is my local tap supply.
GB


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## PistolPatch (4/2/08)

Darren, old GB is the pH king! He's got lots of qualifications in brewing and so knows the science of brewing back to front. He writes short posts though so may have not explained things above fully. He is a true expert on this though. Any time I meet him I just try and digest a tiny bit of what he explains!!!

I currently use pH paper from Ross and a while back bought some 5.2* from Ross. The 5.2 says to use 1 tbsp per brew but as I full-volume brew I have had to use a hell of lot more than this which makes it a little too costly compared to the other acids you can use such as phosphoric.

I'm not sure if traditional brewers have to adjust the pH of their sparge water but it would be interesting to get an answer in this thread.

One other answer that I'm sure would be of help to 65b and certainly myself is...

The only time I have seen other brewers adjusting their mash pH is after around 5 to ten minutes of mashing. I've always adjusted my hot liquor to the right pH (used to aim for 5.9 as someone told me to do that!) and then added the grain after. So, do you adjust the hot liquor pH or the mash pH? If it is the mash pH, how long do you wait before adjusting???

(Just to confuse you more 65b, if the answer to the above is that you adjust your hot liquor pH, that changes with temperature!!!)

I have as many questions as you 65b so thanks for starting the thread. And, just so you don't get too worried, occassionally, and certainly in the early days, I never worried about pH and never noticed a difference in the end result. These were all with ales though. GB has to be a little more fussy as he is on a mission to brew the perfect pils.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


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## sah (4/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I use a pH meter every brew.The brewing Liqour I use ranges from 5.14 to just under 8 ph so I like to know whats going on and make adjustments .



Wow GB, the water is from a different source right? Bore & town?

Scott


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## wessmith (4/2/08)

Absolute waste of time and guaranteed to screw the flavour profile trying to adjust pH after mashin. And yes, adjusting sparge water pH is essential - especially if the pH is a bit high. Sparge water should be around 6 to 6.5.

Wes


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## matti (4/2/08)

I am still a pretty new to the practical part of AG but I got the theory down pat pretty much.
If you know you're initial PH on the brew liqour is high there are a load of things you can do to help the mash Ph to drop.

For instance, If you are brewing ales with darker malts the pH should come down with longer mashes if the brew liqour is a high in pH.

When brewing pilsner with pale grains you can obtain acidulated Malts to assist th pH. Or just add that 5.2...
I have used citric acid in partials but wouldn't recommend it in AG.

I've got pH-strips from Ross as my own ph meter died in the aarse and work wouldn't let me use theirs.

If you are comfortable getting the mash pH right it could be worth looking into adjusting the sparging Liqour.
The pH rises with temperature and sparging with "caustic solution" could spoil any run off.

Just my 2cents worth 

Matti

some one got in b4 me hehehe
Had to edit the spelling woeful initial attempt.


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## goatherder (4/2/08)

What makes you say that Wes? I adjust after mashin where necessary and find it a fairly simple and trouble free process.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/08)

goatherder said:


> What makes you say that Wes? I adjust after mashin where necessary and find it a fairly simple and trouble free process.


I know of Brewers that will adjust at the kettle to provide a premium enviroment (pH ) for the yeast.
GB


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/08)

SAH said:


> Wow GB, the water is from a different source right? Bore & town?
> 
> Scott


Yes the Spring water comes from 40 km away and I do a special trip for it. The rest of our tap water comes from the ground (Bores) as well Via the WA Government treatment plant but is not spring water.
GB


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## PistolPatch (4/2/08)

Alright GB, it's time for you to write a bit more than 2 sentences. There are a few of us here that need some detailed (but not too detailed) education!

I mean I only wrote 3 posts above and I'm more confused than ever! What chance does 65b have!!!

So, GB, can you write us newer pH AGrs a guide to how as we should go about adjusting our pH? Just assume we are all brewing an APA. I think that will give us new pH guys a starting point. So far (I think), no one has given 65B even the basics.

Staying tuned and hi to wes, matti and goatherder.


Pat


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> Alright GB, it's time for you to write a bit more than 2 sentences. There are a few of us here that need some detailed (but not too detailed) education!
> 
> I mean I only wrote 3 posts above and I'm more confused than ever! What chance does 65b have!!!
> 
> ...


Will do but Top Gear is on TV now. Later.
GB


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## PistolPatch (4/2/08)

:angry: 

On the plus side though, Top Gear only goes for an hour...

 

Thanks Mr Neville from 65b, myself and all the others that I'm sure are confused. I'm out of here now but have told myself that I am going to wake up to a top post in the morning that answers all my above questions* :super: 

No pressure though Nev 

Please keep it basic for us new pHers though. I'm sure all of us would be wrapped with just a starting point (*see above questions of mine.) Hear 65b and all of us newbee's cry for practical help!!)

Thanks in advance master from us grasshoppers!

Pat


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## Screwtop (4/2/08)

pint of lager said:


> There are already some very good posts here on pH.
> 
> Most people would agree though that the crush has the biggest effect on efficiency. Next is effective sparging. Look after these two points before starting on pH. If you really wish to address pH right now for peace of mind, just grab some of the 5.2 buffer from a supplier.
> 
> ...



65 bellett,

There are some pretty heavy posts above and planned, for you to digest. Since you are a newb might I suggest you follow POL's post AT THIS STAGE of your brewing experience, come back later and tweak based upon what the guru's have to offer here. 

From experience, the greatest increase in efficiency came from 1. Increasing boil time to 90 min which required more water (more sparging of the grains). 2. Correct sparge water temp (hot enough to maintain the grainbed temp at 76C odd) during sparging. 3. Continuous or fly sparging which is just so simple. I used to average 65% eff and blamed mash tun and cush, was using a Marga Mill so visited Tidal Pete to have my grain crushed on his Crankandstein, though it was a fine cush there was little improvemet. Then tried playing with mash tun and manifold design, after changing from cooler to SS mash tun and then from braid to copper slotted manifold and then to PVC and finally to false bottom with little variation I was advised by Ross to do a 90 min boil. The extra sparge water required (pre boil volume) for the longer boil increased efficiency to 75% Started then to look at my water volumes and temps, that was the secret. All of a sudden I was achiveing 75% 80%. Had always adusted the PH of my total brewing water to PH 6.0 prior to heating. Changed to adusting my mash PH using citric acid from the supermarket cooking aisle and using my digital PH meter. Trouble was the sample had to be cooled and by that time the mash had been underway for 20min and much of the conversion had taken place by the time I had a reading. I now use 5.2 and generally achieve between 83% and 88% efficiency.

Hope this helps with your brewing experimentation.

Screwy


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/08)

65bellett said:


> So far I have a few All Grain brews under my belt and have not yet done a PH test on any of them. I have been doing a bit of reading about PH testing and have read that I may be able to improve my efficiency (my efficiency currently sit at about the mid 60% range) by adjusting the PH.
> 
> What is the biggest factor in the PH moving to the wrong range?
> 
> 65 B


 65 B and Pat
What knowledge I have on the matter I will try to explain in a easy way although its not and easy subject to write about.
Basic overview of why to know your pH levels.I will leave out factors of grain crush and lautering techniques.Although lautering is affected by pH to a large degree.
So why do we mash? To convert the starch in the crushed malt to fermentable sugars.So to achieve the best possible out come in mashing there fore better efficiency % of extract you need to have 2 main factors : 1 the right temperatures and 2 the right pH.
Now the "Things" which break down these starchs to sugars are enzymes and these enzymes are very happy to work at certain temps and ph.The different enzymes have different optimal pH's but for pratical purposes it is excepted that between 5.0-5.4 pH is good so if you aim for 5.2 ph you are right there.I will expect that you know the right mashing temps and these will change with different styles of beer. Before I get to how to adjust pH I will give you some facts and figures.These figures are not of the top of my head but are adapted from Hind.1950
Amylase Activity at 60C
PH Activity% 0f Amylase (the enzyme "thing")
4.8----- 98
5.0----- 99
5.2 ------ 100
5.4----- 95
5.8 ---- 85
6.2 ----- 65

As you can see being a bit more acidic is much better than being more base.A lot of potential conversion of starch is lost by going much past 5.4 pH in the base direction.These figures may not seem to be great deal to home brewers but this means real time and money in the brewing businesss.
So to adjust pH I use Weyermann Acidulated malt which has a pH of 3.4 -3.6 or food grade 80% Lactic acid both being basically the same but the acidulated malt is ok with the German purity laws so thats my personal first choice.With the acid malt I find you need between 2 -5 % of total grain bill with Pilsner type beers with my tap water and none with darker more acidic malts such as roasts and chocs.I dont usually need to acidify my sparge water as I find I dont get to over 5.6 pH during lautering.Going any higher than mid 5 pH during fun off's and you start to run the risk of extracting harsh husk phenols which other than tasting like crap also add to beer staling and hazes.Higher sparge temps are also a compounding factor here(excess of 77C).Back to lautering and pH's .If you are trying to achieve the best possible run off in your lauter tun you need to pay attention to break down of betaglucans (temp range 45-55) which are a gummy and can cause slow run offs and stuck sparges.These are also pH controlled with an optimun around 5.6 pH.If every thing goes well you should end up with a cooled wort of 5.0- 5.2 ph which will set you up for a good fermentation and good attenuations.Keeping acurate records of all pH's during brewing and fermentation is a good tool to help solve those little brewing mystries. So yes do your pH readings be by meter or strips.Hope this clears some of it up and doesnt leave you with to many unwanted concerns.It makes it more interesting to me and more of a pain for others.
GB


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## matti (5/2/08)

Luvely Post GB.
I was still milling over how you'd explain it in one simple post, and there you go. 
That's how!
I hope PP has his head screwed on when he wakes up.
ooops.... hi PP. 
If you can get this right you'll beer will be clear again.

In BIAB you'll only have to adjust the water in the kettle once.
I wonder though if it is possible to add acidulated malt to the bag in BIAB?
I can't see why not.


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## newguy (5/2/08)

GB's post should be archived somewhere as a great "why" regarding mash pH. Great post. I'll add that according to Noonan in New Brewing Lager Beer that alpha amylase apparently works best at a pH of 5.7, and beta amylase at 5.2.

Regarding meters vs strips, I started with strips and then bought a meter. The meter is nice, but it's a pain in the arse to calibrate, it takes forever for a reading to stabilise, and the probe will eventually need replacement. You also need to have calibrated buffer solutions to calibrate the thing. I no longer use either, as I have my system "dialed in." Get the paper strips and use those. More bang for your buck.

I personally acidify all my brewing water with 1ml 88% lactic acid per every 10l brewing water.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/2/08)

matti said:


> Luvely Post GB.
> I was still milling over how you'd explain it in one simple post, and there you go.
> That's how!
> I hope PP has his head screwed on when he wakes up.
> ...


In the bag is not a problem.You can work it all out on paper before hand but it is certainly not some thing that can be explained simlpy here or I would do.Best approach is to record your liquor pH before you start mashing and say add 3% (acid malt) of the grain bill ( Pale beer styles) in the milling. Give this a go and record your mash pH. A bit of trial and error ! I find it can take up to 5% some times.To get the best results its worth trying having a little more acid malt put to one side which has been soaked in H20 ( a sour mash) and adding this to adjust pH at a early stage of mashing.Like I said better to be on the more Acid side of 5.2 pH.
GB


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## sah (5/2/08)

Thanks for the info GB.

A question for you regular users of lactic acid. Where do you get it and how much do you pay? I bought a small bottle (30 ml) of it from the local chemist recently and they charged be a fortune, $18 or similar.

thanks,
Scott


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## newguy (5/2/08)

I use lactic acid from LD Carlson. 120ml jar costs around $6 here. $18 for 30ml sure sounds like robbery. Check homebrew stores as I get mine from one. If you can't easily find lactic acid, phosphoric acid is actually preferable as it has less of a flavour than lactic. There's always the 5.2 stuff that I've seen people mention too. Don't feel that you _have_ to use lactic acid, just use whatever you can easily get. Be careful about citric acid as I'd be leery about it adding a detectable taste.


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## Stuster (5/2/08)

Interesting post, GB. I have always used salt additions instead of acid/acid malt. That's partly because here in Sydney the water is very soft and a bit more calcium is optimal. Not saying that this is better or worse than your way, just to point out that there are different ways to skin this particular cat.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/2/08)

Stuster said:


> Interesting post, GB. I have always used salt additions instead of acid/acid malt. That's partly because here in Sydney the water is very soft and a bit more calcium is optimal. Not saying that this is better or worse than your way, just to point out that there are different ways to skin this particular cat.


Yes you can use salts but you will find that you would need a hell of a lot more salts , with the risk of affecting taste , to achieve the same pH adjustments that can be achieved with minute amounts of acids.Of course this amount of salts depends on what brewing liquor you have to start with.Lactic acid is a weak acid so it takes a little more than some of the stronger acids but I dont have the worry of altering the flavour profile.I just hate any chalky tastes in my Pilsners.My post was more of a "Why I do iT" and just a little of how I do it. As long as you are looking at pH,s in brewing your on the right track.
GB


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## floppinab (5/2/08)

For those wanting to know a bit more about the detailed chemisty the below is a very good 3 pager :

http://www.ibd.org.uk/igbsite/business/tra...m.%20August.pdf


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## Stuster (5/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Yes you can use salts but you will find that you would need a hell of a lot more salts




Not that much here as the water is soft. For a 20L batch, I usually only 2-3g of various chemicals. But it wouldn't work so well with harder water, when you'll start getting taste effects as you say. I've got some acid malt and I'll be giving it a go in some beers this year.


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## LethalCorpse (5/2/08)

how much does phosphoric acid used as a sanitiser on the HLT and MLT reduce the pH?


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## newguy (5/2/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> how much does phosphoric acid used as a sanitiser on the HLT and MLT reduce the pH?



Do you mean no-rinse sanitisers? To kill most bacteria, the pH has to be below ~2.1, so I'm guessing that a properly mixed no-rinse sanitiser solution should be at a pH of 2 or less.


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## sah (5/2/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> how much does phosphoric acid used as a sanitiser on the HLT and MLT reduce the pH?



LC, Are you inferring that you sanitise your HLT and MLT? What for?

regards,
Scott


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## LethalCorpse (5/2/08)

Well, neither of them are built yet, but I imagine that when they are I'll sanitise them anyway. I know the wrt's going to be boiled afterwards anyway, and that there are probably worse beasties on the grain than in the vessels. But how much does no-rinse cost? I'm a lot happier knowing that everything I use is clean to start with. Maybe there are certain kinds of mould spores living in my garage that would be quite happy at mash temps, and put nasty by-products in the beer before it gets to the kettle. Probably not, but I freely admit I don't know enough about microbiology to bother saving ten cents worth of phos acid. 

Plus, if the acid can be of assistance in dropping the pH to a better level for the enzyme activity, then it's one less ingredient to keep in stock.
EDIT: time to get out the old chemistry textbooks to calculate the impact of a few mLs of pH 2 acid on the overall pH of 45L of liquor.


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## newguy (5/2/08)

You don't need to sanitise anything that comes into contact with your ingredients prior to the boil. If you're worried about something starting to grow in your mash, 1) mashout temperatures will probably kill it, and 2) if something does start to grow in your mash, you're taking way too long.

As long as your sanitiser doesn't have extra things in it, things that will taste bad or have unforeseen adverse effects on your beer, you can use it to acidify your water.

Edit: perhaps an online pH calculator will work? Link.


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## Darren (5/2/08)

Just remember when using phosphoric or lactic acid that it is easy to over do it. I have tasted some HB where too much phosphoric acid had been added.
It made your teeth tingle and bubble away. It wasn't obvious either. Only reason I noticed it was because I had acid in my mouth previously back in the days when mouth pipetting was still ok 8). The three or four other brewers thought it was OK (and it did taste good). The brewer of the beer told us how much acid was added and it was in the order of ten times that which was required. 

I also suspect that continual addition of phosphoric acid to beer will have negative effects on your teeth and gut (above that caused by the beer alone)

cheers

Darren


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## LethalCorpse (5/2/08)

So, nothing wrong with phosphoric acid for lowering pH, but don't go too far - ie, measure and balance the pH, rather than chucking a bunch of H+ ions in there and hoping

no need to sanitise pre-boil equipment (which I already knew), but there's no sense in mashing in something which may contain botulism etc. I'm not concerned here about things growing in my mash, I'm concerned about things which have already grown in my HLT or MLT eating my sugar and shitting in my wrt. Only extremely mildly so, but enough to justify the miniscule amount of sanitiser. My eventual plan is to run boiling water through the entire system (HLT to bottles/kegs) before starting a brew.

yes, the botulism was a pisstake


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## PistolPatch (6/2/08)

Haven't had time to read any above posts. (Will do on the weekend.)

It ended up that I 'interviewed.' GB tonight. I even took detailed notes!

After a few hours on the phone, giving penetrating questions  , I now see that pH is not as easy a subject as it is made out to be.

Grrrr!

I did however learn tonight a heap of (way too much) interesting stuff. One of these things is why generic advice on pH is not easy or even possibly practical to give. Now I understand this!

Give me a few days guys and I will try and write what I have learned tonight. It's pretty interesting stuff!


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## newguy (6/2/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> no need to sanitise pre-boil equipment (which I already knew), but there's no sense in mashing in something which may contain botulism etc. I'm not concerned here about things growing in my mash, I'm concerned about things which have already grown in my HLT or MLT eating my sugar and shitting in my wrt. Only extremely mildly so, but enough to justify the miniscule amount of sanitiser. My eventual plan is to run boiling water through the entire system (HLT to bottles/kegs) before starting a brew.
> 
> yes, the botulism was a pisstake



Just make sure your vessels are clean. If they're clean enough to eat out of or cook in, they're clean enough to brew. All you have to do is carefully hose them out at the end of your brew day and store them upside down, with all valves open, to dry. Unless you find a wasp's nest or a spider web inside them, just give them another quick hosing and they're ready for use.


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## PistolPatch (6/2/08)

*GB Interview - Part 1* 

Think I'll write down what I learned from GB last night in a couple of parts....

The first thing I learned is that you can't give another brewer specifics on pH. Take two brewers - one in Adelaide and one in Sydney. Let's assume they both have a tap water pH of 7.0. I would have assumed that both could add identical mls of acid (or whatever) to their mash water and end up with an identical mash pH. This is not the case.

Apparently the nature of the water (hardness etc) has a big effect. This is the reason why GB emphasised trial and error in his post above.

(Excellent post by the way GB - really makes sense, doubly so after last night's lesson.)

:icon_cheers:


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## therook (6/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> *GB Interview - Part 1*
> 
> Think I'll write down what I learned from GB last night in a couple of parts....
> 
> ...



Your kidding me Pistol, thats all there is for part 1 :lol: 

This is a great thread something i have been trying to get my head around for ages, i don't know if i'm any the wiser but hopefully i'll get something out of it.

Rook


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## ozpowell (6/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> *GB Interview - Part 1*
> 
> Think I'll write down what I learned from GB last night in a couple of parts....
> 
> ...



The one time I expected a lengthy post from you PP, and you give us a teaser :lol: Looking forward to parts 2 through 50  

Cheers,
Michael.


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## matti (6/2/08)

Have you water analyzed at you pool shop, or look up your catchment areas government analyzis.
Then read some literature like John Palmer or Gregory Noonan.
I hate the imperial measurments. If you got Beersmith or promash you can convert it to SI units.
eg, grams and mls etc....

Then you can do approximate adjustments with salts or acidulated malts.

Now I look forward to how PP is going to explain this...

*Best thing to do is to ask yourself if its worth all the trouble and/or just make beer that suits your water profile. *

I am lucky Sydney has got fairly soft water but it varies greatly with the weather and its a bit hit and miss here.

I tried to burtonize my water once and the brew ended little too salty so go easy guys.


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## Screwtop (6/2/08)

Something that seems to have slipped under the radar is the effect of the malt chosen for use in your recipe upon the mash PH, preparing water is only part of the equasion. It's the mash (malt and water) PH which needs to be adjusted, I don't mean that you have to take a sample and adjust the mash PH each time, but you will at first to establish what is required to be added to your water for a particular recipe to achieve the correct mash PH. Then so long as your water source remains stable your brewing water additions should remain roughly the same for THIS recipe, but not for all.

Maybe this will be revealed in PP part 2. :lol:

Screwy


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## 65bellett (6/2/08)

Well thankyou every body for the info. I think the point has definitely been made that testing PH is important. I'm going to head down to the next All Grain demo at the LHBS and annoy the bloke doing the demo with a million more questions. Will have to see the process so I can incorporate it into my brewing.

65 B


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## randyrob (7/2/08)

has anyone mentioned "pH for Beginners" by Graham Sanders???

 LINKY

Rob.


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## milpod (8/2/08)

PH,another reason to put AG off.

It can be as complicated or as easy as you like.

I pay as much attention as to ph,as Darren does to filtering.

Its not complicated to make good beer,its just the effort to do it.


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## PistolPatch (10/2/08)

therook said:


> Your kidding me Pistol, thats all there is for part 1 :lol:



It gets a lot worse Mr Rook :huh: ...

*GB Interview Part 2*

Ummm... Part 2.... There seems to be a slight problem with my interview preparation and note-taking. It has nothing to do with the Perth heat wave or the 238 beers consumed during the interview - nothing at all.

Upon checking my notes at the first possible sober opportunity I found that those I could actually read (approx 5%) all pertained to things which on a sober read of Nev's great post above he had actually already clearly written about!!!

So for Part 2, re-read Neville's posts above!

(I see I wasn't the only one to get caught out though - not mentioning any names though eh Screwtop - lol!)

Anyway, was working out near Nev's the other day and so grabbed some acidulated malt. Could be a bit of fun. Just have to remember to use less in my schwartz and more in my lighter coloured beers. Will keep some acid handy though for my first brews until I get it right. (I think Neville said that for beginners like me, if you can get your mash pH right in the first ten minutes then that is a great start. I'll aim for that!

Suffice to say there will be no Part 3 

Might have a few more questions for you though Nev.


Pat


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## Online Brewing Supplies (10/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> It gets a lot worse Mr Rook :huh: ...
> 
> *GB Interview Part 2*
> 
> ...


More than happy to reply when "Top Gear is NOT on".Ie Mondays are out.As for getting the pH right in the first 10 minutes, unless you can work the recipe chemisrty out prior its going to take a few brews to refine.Start at 2% acidulated and work from there.Cant wait to try a Lager from a APA man.Spitting amarillo. :lol: 
GB


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## PistolPatch (10/2/08)

Couple of other things...

Nice link randy!

I agree with milpod's post above to a large degree. I've brewed heaps of ales with and without adjusting ph. Have also tasted plenty of others and in both cases have never noticed a difference. I think for most beginners, if they are brewing ales, there are other more important things to concentrate on than pH. For lager and pilsner brewers, this subject though I imagine should be quite a high priority.

As milpod said though, having no knowledge of pH is certainly not a reason to put off doing your first AG.

For the novice ale brewer, getting the pH right is also not necessarily going to solve some problems that beginners or novices might face. For example, the slight haze I have been getting in recent beers I know for sure, is not due to pH. (Sorry matti! I think it is a combination of two other more basic things which I'll know for sure on my next brew. Will let you know mate.) 

In saying all the above though, it's not very hard for a beginner to buy a bit of citric acid from the supermarket and some pH paper and start playing around with pH a bit. As they travel along, they could change their acids or start using acidulated malt etc.

Like the rook, this thread is great for me to read as I'm at a stage where I want to learn just a little bit more stuff about pH. 

The way people are writing here so far seems to be of great value but what do they say? "When the student is ready the master will appear."

Think I, for one, am going to have a heap more questions for this thread.


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## PistolPatch (10/2/08)

Sorry, missed your post Nev!

Got 2 lagers coming up for you. If they turn out crappy, I will blame the fact that I don't have a stash of your special water. After all, I'll be using your recipe and advice. If they are great then I think I should take full credit!

Please supply me with a lager recipe that contains amarillo.


Pat

P.S. Dunno about these lagers and pilsners though. I mean having to wait months for a beer? This one fact alone may well make it impossible for _ME_ at least to ever know if I actually brewed a good one.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (10/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> Sorry, missed your post Nev!
> 
> Got 2 lagers coming up for you. If they turn out crappy, I will blame the fact that I don't have a stash of your special water. After all, I'll be using your recipe and advice. If they are great then I think I should take full credit!
> 
> ...


Amarillo in a lager will be good! Keep it in the back ground. Its just not to my tastes.PP you will know when you have brewed a good one.Then I will be around for a taste.I will think about % and let you know. :huh: 
GB


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## kook (10/2/08)

randyrob said:


> has anyone mentioned "pH for Beginners" by Graham Sanders???
> 
> LINKY
> 
> Rob.



John Palmer explains it really well in How To Brew too. Explaining how to adjust your pH either using salts or acid based on the properties of your water. In many cases you can work out the properties using pool testing equipment too.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (10/2/08)

kook said:


> John Palmer explains it really well in How To Brew too. Explaining how to adjust your pH either using salts or acid based on the properties of your water. In many cases you can work out the properties using pool testing equipment too.


Kook A swim and test your pH at the same time  Shallow I know :lol: .Sorry in advance. I could not resist.
GB


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## PistolPatch (10/2/08)

kook said:


> John Palmer explains it really well in How To Brew too.



Sorry Kook old son! Don't agree with you on this for beginners.

Just had a look at this part of How to Brew and if a beginner isn't bored or confused by the end of the third paragraph then they must have a science background or something.

I've got a fair few AG's under my belt now and that section of Palmer had me sticking matchsticks in my eyes fairly quickly. Much prefer the explanations and links above.

I think How to Brew is recommended to beginners and novices way too much. There are far better books for beginners and novices which unfortunately are rarely recommended.

Maybe Palmer has something simpler later in that chapter - I'll go and have a look but there are few beginners or novices who would bother going that far and if they did their head would be spinning.

I like your library though mate!
Pat


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## goatherder (10/2/08)

Sorry PP, I have to disagree with you here. 

Whilst the info posted in this thread is good, I feel Palmer is the be-all and end-all of brewing pH. Residual alkalinity is where it's at and he's the only popular brewing author to cover it properly.

I probably agree with you that Palmer's material isn't suitable for beginners but neither is dicking with your mash pH. Forget about mash pH if you are a beginner, you'll know when you need to learn about it. When you get to that stage, read Palmer.

Mash pH is nowhere near as important as dialling in your gear, hitting your temps and gravities consistently and learning how to formulate recipes and ferment properly.


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## TidalPete (10/2/08)

Patski,


:icon_offtopic: Way off-topic I'm sure(?) but it's time for *A Clean Start *mate. :beerbang: 

Give your old love (BIAB) the *Big Shove *& get serious about all-grain now that you have the experience & the knowhow.
Everyone on this site is much appreciative of your efforts to bring about BIAB which, I am sure you will agree, is meant to be an intermediate step between K&K & AG.

Probably had too much of my Scottish ATM but you really need to move on, and on, and on, Ad Infinitum. 
There is always a new horizon mate.

I am preparing for all the flack on this ---- Putting on flamesuit, bulletproof/bombproof vest, getting into the bunker, etc, etc. *But I am not going to reply.* so Beers & Cheers to you all and happy brewing :icon_cheers: 


TP :beer:


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## kook (10/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> Sorry Kook old son! Don't agree with you on this for beginners.
> 
> Just had a look at this part of How to Brew and if a beginner isn't bored or confused by the end of the third paragraph then they must have a science background or something.
> 
> I've got a fair few AG's under my belt now and that section of Palmer had me sticking matchsticks in my eyes fairly quickly. Much prefer the explanations and links above.



Everyone is a beginner on a certain subject at some point.

I was a beginner on the subject of mash pH before I read it. In my opinion he explains the concept really well, and gives formulas that actually work. Printing out the scales really helps to understand too IMO.

I don't have a science background, but think that he has done a very good job of explaining a reasonable complex aspect of brewing in clear detail.

edit - I've just read through all the above info, and all of it seems like trial-and-error additions of acid or sauermalz ? This is all very good if you brew the same recipe every single time, but otherwise useless. The amount of acid you use to adjust your water for a pilsner is not the same as the amount you use for a stout. It's not about adjusting the pH of the water either. Just because your water is pH 8 doesn't mean that it won't buffer down to the ideal range in the mash. Also, I'd personally avoid citric acid in your beer unless you're making a wit or similar.


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## PistolPatch (10/2/08)

Look out Pete - I'm coming to get you! You just wait until Nev tastes my BIAB lagers!!!

LOL
Pat

P.S. Even Nev couldn't see a problem with BIAB apart from not re-circulating your wort which is something that only fly-sparging will do so there you go you old son!!! And there are disadvantages to re-circulating if your pH and temp aren't right - so there


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## Batz (10/2/08)

So who uses that 5.2 stuff?
And if you do have you done readings before and after adding it?

Batz


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## kook (10/2/08)

Batz said:


> So who uses that 5.2 stuff?
> And if you do have you done readings before and after adding it?
> 
> Batz



I use it (though I only use around 1/3 of the suggested amount). I've tried very similar mashes (all pilsner, just different gravities) with and without it. I found I was well within the range without (5.4) but that the 5.2 did exactly as intended, bringing the mash to 5.2.


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## TidalPete (10/2/08)

PistolPatch said:


> Look out Pete - I'm coming to get you! You just wait until Nev tastes my BIAB lagers!!!
> 
> LOL
> Pat
> ...



I stand corrected Pat.

For your own goo ---- Hey! wait on! I am not replying to all this. :lol: 

TP :beer:


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## Online Brewing Supplies (11/2/08)

Batz said:


> So who uses that 5.2 stuff?
> And if you do have you done readings before and after adding it?
> 
> Batz


No never used it and I dont need it.I have other ways of doing the same thing.But if some one sends me some I will give it a go and let you know.
GB


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## Batz (11/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> No never used it and I dont need it.I have other ways of doing the same thing.But if some one sends me some I will give it a go and let you know.
> GB



Someone is sending me some  So I'll let you know.

Batz


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## Jye (11/2/08)

goatherder said:


> Sorry PP, I have to disagree with you here.
> 
> Whilst the info posted in this thread is good, I feel Palmer is the be-all and end-all of brewing pH. Residual alkalinity is where it's at and he's the only popular brewing author to cover it properly.
> 
> I probably agree with you that Palmer's material isn't suitable for beginners but neither is dicking with your mash pH. Forget about mash pH if you are a beginner, you'll know when you need to learn about it. When you get to that stage, read Palmer.



+1 Water chemistry is the last thing any mash should be learning and when you do you might as well learn it properly. This isnt a chapter you can just flick over and learn by osmosis, you will have to read it 3 or 4 time and then do some practice examples. It gets easier when you use beersmith to perform some of the calculations and the nomograph becomes second nature after a couple of goes. 



PistolPatch said:


> P.S. Even Nev couldn't see a problem with BIAB apart from not re-circulating your wort which is something that only fly-sparging will do so there you go you old son!!! And there are disadvantages to re-circulating if your pH and temp aren't right - so there



Pat why cant you recirc with batch sparging? and what are these disadvantages of recirculating?



Batz said:


> So who uses that 5.2 stuff?
> And if you do have you done readings before and after adding it?



Batz Ive used if for a while and it works great and as kook said you dont need the recommended amount. I use 5g per 21L batch.


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## randyrob (17/2/08)

Hey Guys,

i've finally invested in a PH Meter and used it in a recent brew i did here are my results:

Carbon Filtered Tap Water PH= 7.5

Mash PH = 5.4 (this was 100% Pilsner Malt @ 1050, pretty good starting point i thought)

now i know in an ideal world the Mash PH should be 5.2

so is a 0.2 Higher PH a cause for concern?

i'll be looking foward to trying it in my usual brews as well as a few darker ones i have lined up before i start adjusting my PH.

i've got plenty of Accidulated Malt as well as some 5.2 in the cupboard just wanna see what i'm up against before i start fiddling!

Also Checked a couple of beers i have on tap:

APA PH= 4.45

Summer Ale PH= 4.37

Rob.


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## goatherder (17/2/08)

5.4 is OK Rob. According to Palmer, the mash pH should be between 5.4 and 5.7 when measured at room temp which translates to 5.1-5.4 at mash temps. It seems your water is fairly soft to get this result from 100% pils, that's a good thing to have. You will probably hit this range with everything but very pale or very dark beers.


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## Kai (17/2/08)

5.2 is fine and dandy. Interesting to see your numbers too, would love to dip your probe in a few mashes with 3-5% acid malt.


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## randyrob (17/2/08)

Kai said:


> would love to dip your probe in a few mashes with 3-5% acid malt.



no probs mate it can be arranged


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## lespaul (29/4/11)

Ive had some concerns with mash pH after doing some more calculations on water additions. I have been using the kaiser spreadsheet which doesnt show the pH of the thin mashes seen in BIAB. It says that even with the addition of CaSO4 and CaCl2 to the point of around 80ppm Ca (6g of each) it only has a pH shift of -0.09.

My concern is with the pH of the thinner Biab mashes, where the larger mass of water is going to have a higher buffering effect. Also in the last couple of light lagers ive done, the colour has been higher than anticipated, so im not sure if its the pH in the mailard reaction increasing the colour of the beer. 

I still havent tested the pH of my wort (the dogs managed to find my cheap pH meter before i got to use it), but before i go testing what should i be using to lower the pH? and roughly how much would i need to put in to reduce the pH? I get that its a logarithmic scale and everything although just a rough guide would be nice. I have some citric acid there but im not sure how much to put in and how it would affect the taste.

Cheers


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## Wolfy (29/4/11)

lespaul said:


> I still havent tested the pH of my wort (the dogs managed to find my cheap pH meter before i got to use it), but before i go testing what should i be using to lower the pH? and roughly how much would i need to put in to reduce the pH? I get that its a logarithmic scale and everything although just a rough guide would be nice. I have some citric acid there but im not sure how much to put in and how it would affect the taste.


I'm not sure you should be using anything to lower the pH of your mash _before _you actually test it.
Water-calculation-spreadsheets can provide an estimate of what to expect but they can't replace actual testing, which may show results that are quite different to that predicted.
(Then there is debate over which formula and spreadsheets are actually 'correct', and more debate about the buffering that occurs within the mash and if that can actually be calculated etc).
A rough guide would be a few ml of lactic or hydrochloric liquid acids, or a few grams of citric acid in powder form.
However, if you are worried about the pH and don't want or cannot measure it, using the 5.2 buffering powder would be a good option.


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## manticle (29/4/11)

Agree with Wolfy - why add anything to drop pH if you don't know what the pH is?

I would either add nothing till you know or just add some salts for flavour (calcium chloride and calcium sulphate depending on hop/malt balance).


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## gone_fishing (29/4/11)

Agree too. Malt is well buffered and slightly acidic. Most mashes should fall into the correct range with little or no additions.
gf


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## [email protected] (29/4/11)

Never heard of using Hydrochloric acid to adjust PH in brewing?

However, once you know your PH and if you need to drop it, food grade Phosphoric acid is very cheap and effective.
Its also quite safe.

You can dilute it to your desired strength with distilled water prior to use to make adjustments even easier.
Always add acid to the body of water, never the other way around.


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## gone_fishing (29/4/11)

If you decide to go the phosphoric acid route just ensure that it is food grade.
Concentrated phosporic acid will rip your skin off very quickly and a splash in your eye means almost certain instant blindness.
Adding chemicals to beer doesn't necessarily improve it.
If you think your beer is not as good as you would like, ensuring that your brewing process is sound should alsways be the first step.
gf


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## katzke (30/4/11)

I am using Palmers sheet version 2.3 and other then WITs I get the predicted results. I BIAB and have never even thought of the difference.

I do a full style specific pH and taste addition at the beginning. Have never had any issues with the expected pH and have only once added a few drops of acid (that was in the beginning and I most likely messed up the recipe). I have never had any issues with dissolving the additions as with BIAB you mash and boil in the same vessel.

I think most people, because they do not understand what is happening, make water much more difficult then it needs to be. Go read Designing Great Beers and look in the back for suggested water profiles for the different styles you brew. Experiment and see what you like. Follow the sulfate/chloride ratios and you will have a good place to start. Ignore any reports of historical brewing water. Most if not all of them are wrong.

And yes you need to know what is in the water you are brewing with and be able to test the pH of the mash. I use the cheep test strips and they get me close enough for success. I would not trust a cheep pH meter any more then I would trust a cheep mash thermometer.


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## lespaul (30/4/11)

no, i dont think i explained that too well. WHEN i test the pH how much should i add of whatever to bring the pH down, rather than add too much and blow it.

Also, does citric acid affect the taste of a brew?

Also ive read designing great beers, and palmers, and that one on wikipedia and a few others. The reason i ask is that i was thinking with BIAB and the additional amount of water that is used in the mash, as well as the relatively small pH shift from the salts ive been adding (predicted .09), that i might need to be using something more to bring the pH down. As i mentioned ive been getting darker beers from my light lagers, and im just going through some of the causes it might be. I dont really care about the colour but at the end of it i might end up with a better tasting beer.

Cheers


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## manticle (30/4/11)

The answer to your question is not as simple as you would like.

Malts affect the pH as they have a buffering effect. Dark malts are more acidifying than light. Therefore the grain bill will affect the overall pH and subsequently any additions. 
Temporary and permanent hardness of your water will also affect pH. Carbonates have a buffering effect and will resist acidification - thus influencing how much of anything you need to add. No-one can tell you how much to add without knowing these things (and I guarantee every answer will be different anyway).

Too much citric acid or calcium salts will affect flavour - maybe more so than not adjusting at all.

That's why I advise adding salts first and foremost for flavour and enzyme activity. Add 2 grams of calcium sulphate and 2 grams of calcium chloride to the mash and the same to the boil of your next mid coloured brew (presuming single batch). If you like what the result is then start measuring pH, get a copy of your water profile and start calculating how far off your pH is.


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## katzke (1/5/11)

lespaul said:


> no, i dont think i explained that too well. WHEN i test the pH how much should i add of whatever to bring the pH down, rather than add too much and blow it.
> 
> Also, does citric acid affect the taste of a brew?
> 
> ...



Follow the calculator you are using. If you find it does not work then try a different one.

As to how much acid to add? I have water very similar to most all the water I have read about in OZ. I have never had to add acid to a light colored beer. It could be you have unusual water. It could be you are not adding the correct salts. It could be you are not using the calculator correctly. It could even be that you are brewing a beer I have never brewed.

If you do need to add acid it is drops. A few drops then wait a bit before testing, and repeat until you get the expected results. It is much easier to lower the pH then raise it. So go easy with acid. Yes drops. I have a glass eye dropper.

Why not post your recipe, your water profile, and the salts you are adding. Then we can let you know what might be the problem.


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## katzke (1/5/11)

manticle said:


> That's why I advise adding salts first and foremost for flavour and enzyme activity. Add 2 grams of calcium sulphate and 2 grams of calcium chloride to the mash and the same to the boil of your next mid coloured brew (presuming single batch). If you like what the result is then start measuring pH, get a copy of your water profile and start calculating how far off your pH is.



A mid colored malty brew or a mid colored hoppy brew?

That is why I do not like blind additions. Additions should be made for a reason.


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## manticle (1/5/11)

A mid coloured balanced brew. For hops push chloride addition down by a gram and or sulphate up. For malt go the other way.

I don't like blind additions either but a small conservative addition to discern the effect on flavour is better than willy nilly throwing citric acid all over the place.

My original point was exactly that - recipe and source water will affect the pH so no-one can suggest an addition to correct pH until they know what you are brewing. Calcium salts affect flavour as well as pH and may be added solely for that reason. Add a bit, see what difference (if any) you think it makes or else just leave it alone. 

You're right though. Without knowing calcium levels etc, even those small additions are flying in the dark.


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## lespaul (1/5/11)

Yeah, probably too vague a question. Ive been using roughly 3g into the mash and 3g into the boil of either CaCl2 or CaSO4 or a mix depending on the beer. In the kaiser calculator it seems to suggest i would need 8g into the mash for the minimum of 50ppm Ca (with a -.05 pH shift). So i might get some pH strips, add 8-10g into the mash and see how it turns out and add some citric acid from there.
nobody really mentioned anything about the properties of a thin mash either, which was the reason i thought there might be a problem in the pH. I suppose the best way to work it out regardless is to give it a crack and see from the results.
water profile im working off is: Ca 2.9 Mg 1.1 Na 4.7 SO4 .09 Cl 6.0 HCO3 13.6
Cheers


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## kevin_smevin (1/5/11)

You can also adjust pH of your brew by using acidulated malt. Each 1% of acidulated malt you use (as a percentage of the entire grain bill) is said to reduce mash pH by 0.1. I've not tested this but its what the weyerman specs say. Keeping your pH low will result in a paler beer - higher pH tentds to strop more colour from your grains


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## Wolfy (1/5/11)

yum yum yum said:


> You can also adjust pH of your brew by using acidulated malt. Each 1% of acidulated malt you use


Or you could add lactic acid - since that is essentially what the acidulated malt does - but doing both/either without testing seems to be a very inexact method.


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