# Extreme Late Hops



## Effect (8/8/09)

Hi all!

I was having a read of this website and noticed that he put only one addition of hops in the brew - but at 10 mins to flame out...

This got me thinking, that I could grab some high AA hops (like some NZ flowers, e.g. Pacific Gem or Galaxy) and do the same thing.

What are your thoughts on doing a HUGE 10 min addtion, enough to get the bitterness of a small 60 minute addition, but with a whole lot more hop flavour and aroma...

Cheers
Phil


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## Muggus (8/8/09)

A bit like hop bursting but at an extreme level really.

In theory it would work, but, and don't quote me on this, I have a feeling there are some benefits from boiling hops a bit longer, to release their preserving qualities and such. 
Not entirely sure about that, but personally i'm a man who loves to experiment and I say you'd be crazy NOT to give it a try!


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## T.D. (8/8/09)

I used a similar theory for my latest Boh Pils. I added 100g of Saaz at 30mins and that was it. The theory was to get the required bitterness but also to avoid hopping it too late and getting too much grassy hop flavour. Unfortunately I can't tell you how it turned out because I haven't fermented it yet! But I have a feeling it could be a good way to hop a pils. The same theory should work well with a hoppy pale ale if you added the hops at 10mins. Then again, I have a feeling you'd get a very hoppy beer if you added the hops at even 20 or 30mins. I reckon there'd be an optimal point around there somewhere - where you get enough hops to give some good flavour, that would also provide the required IBU.


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## warrenlw63 (8/8/09)

T.D. said:


> Unfortunately I can't tell you how it turned out because I haven't fermented it yet!



Pull yer finger out! Don't let me die wondering. :lol: 

Warren -


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## Sammus (8/8/09)

Yeah I've been wanting to do it for a while after reading Jamil's thoughts on it a couple of years ago

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm

would be interesting to know how it turns out, i havent got around to trying it yet 


and re adding hops at 20 and 30 mins etc, the point is that to extract as much of the bittering compounds as possible, you need to boil the hops for a while, but boiling for longer than about 20mins extracts a bunch of undesirable compounds. The undesirables driven off after being boiled for about 40mins or so, hence the usual 60min boil. But boiling for so long also drives off most of the flavour and aroma compounds. Doing it Jamil's way is kind of like extremely inefficient from a bittering perspective, but you get a massive hit of the flavour and aroma compounds.

So far I work out what I want my late additions to be, usually one at 10min for flavour (Theyre steeped a bit longer duuring my 10min whirlpool) and one dry for aroma. Then I just make up the IBUs with POR at 60min, unless its over about 35ibu then I'll use something a bit nicer. I've never understood the point of boiling for between 20 and 60 mins... but hey good results are good results, I havent read that far into the science behind it, so far my knowledge is all broscience.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/8/09)

Here's an article theJamil wrote for Zymurgy magazine - from his website www.mrmalty.com

The Secret to Big Hop Aroma and Flavor

It basically about shifting most or all of your bittering to the last portion of the boil and should give you a bunch of information about what you are thinking about doing.

I have made a brew with no hops at all in the boil and only hops in the NC cube -- if you stick enough hops in there it works perfectly well and you get massive flavour and aroma. In fact the brew I just made today has only 10IBU worth of bittering hop, and the balance of a planned 22IBU come from a No-chill cube addition. I would have made it an all NC hopped beer .. but last time the hop flavour and aroma was almost too much, and to get my IBUs it would have been too much. 

Very late hopping works beautifully IMHO

TB


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## goatherder (8/8/09)

Do it, the results are great. I've made a few beers with hops only added from 20 mins onwards. They always turn out well and I've done well at comps using this method. A big 10min addition would be awesome.

The method of calculating hop bitterness will be significant - they all seem to treat late hops very differently. Give it a try using your normal method, then adjust the next beer if the bitterness is out of whack. For what it's worth, I use the Tinseth method in Beersmith and the bitterness from late hopping seems consistent enough with that of standard hopping schedules for my palate.


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## RetsamHsam (8/8/09)

I have hopped this way on a fair few occassions, although I do around 3 additions between 0-10 mins.. Works best with APA's I find.


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## Duff (8/8/09)

It works well. I'd post my receipe but have had some problems with my laptop which has had to be wiped a couple of times.

An APA on tap now has a combo of Galaxy, Cascade, Chinook and Amarillo all added in a hopburst sense at 20min. All mixed into a bowl and thrown in. OG at 1.050 and IBU at 45.


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## goatherder (8/8/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I have made a brew with no hops at all in the boil and only hops in the NC cube -- if you stick enough hops in there it works perfectly well and you get massive flavour and aroma. In fact the brew I just made today has only 10IBU worth of bittering hop, and the balance of a planned 22IBU come from a No-chill cube addition. I would have made it an all NC hopped beer .. but last time the hop flavour and aroma was almost too much, and to get my IBUs it would have been too much.



Hey Thirsty, can you point me in the direction any threads or info on how to calculate bitterness for cube additions? I'd like to give it a try.


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## bullsneck (8/8/09)

Very late bittering could be good for homegrown hops, I reckon.


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## T.D. (8/8/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Pull yer finger out! Don't let me die wondering. :lol:
> 
> Warren -



If only this boston lager would hurry up and ferment out! :angry: Its been 2 weeks and still a fluffy krausen! 

Must have been at least 6 months ago that we were discussing the 30min addition idea! :lol:


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## razz (8/8/09)

I made a pils last year, 90gms of Super Alpha hops added at 15 mins. With slightly higher cohumolene levels it turned out okay.


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## T.D. (8/8/09)

Hey Razz, how did you find the flavour from the Super Alpha? I have only ever used it late in small quantities but I've heard it can be a good flavour hop.


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## razz (8/8/09)

After four weeks in the keg it was smooth. Not so much grassy aroma, the flavour was better than PoR. And I quite like PoR.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/8/09)

goatherder said:


> Hey Thirsty, can you point me in the direction any threads or info on how to calculate bitterness for cube additions? I'd like to give it a try.



There are a few around - you should be able to search em out by using "cube hopping" as a term.

I have done a few experiments - including one where I had the IBUs of a cube hopped beer measured versus one that had only been standardly hopped. And a couple of tests where I had cube hopped beer tasted by individual/groups of other brewers. Here's what it boils down to.

*If you chuck your hops into the cube loose and you give the cube a few tips on its side and back for the first few hours - Calculate the bitterness as though you had put the Hops in at 20-25mins from the end of the boil.*

*If you put your hops in a nice loose hop bag - and toss that into the cube and you give the cube a few tips on its side and back over the first few hours - Calculate the bitterness as though you had put them in 10-15min from the end of the boil.*

My comparisons are to bitterness worked out via *Rager in Pro-mash.*

Anecdotally - my experiences only - I find that hops added to the cube give a slightly "different" aroma to hops added late in beers that are rapid chilled. The aroma is less intense and doesn't stick out quite so much, but it is deeper, more profound and complex. And you get absolutely great hop flavour from a cube addition - where that might not come through so much with a 0 min or whirlpool addition.

I have some complex hop chemistry based theories about why all this is - you will no doubt see them if you do that search. But best to just give it a try and see how it goes I reckon.

This is still largely guesswork with only a few isolated experiments to try and give it a little solidity -- YMMV I am afraid.

TB


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## Effect (9/8/09)

Looks like I will give the cube hopping a go...

Don't have a hop bag, what else could I use...other than that, I'll just chuck it in loose and count it as a 20 min addition.

I would prefer to chill in this instance, but I don't have any garden hose taps that I could use for my CF chiller as I have moved into a apartment building 

Could I do a 10 min addition, drain into a cube and chuck that in the laundry sink with two bags of ice from the service station? Would that chill fast enough?

Cheers
Phil


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## Thirsty Boy (9/8/09)

Phillip said:


> Looks like I will give the cube hopping a go...
> 
> Don't have a hop bag, what else could I use...other than that, I'll just chuck it in loose and count it as a 20 min addition.
> 
> ...



I don't see why that wouldn't be fast enough - you just need to knock it down out of the "high" temperature range and the sink/ice should do that fairly speedily. No experience though so I might have it wrong.


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## devo (9/8/09)

I now only ever add flavour and aroma hops from 5mins to flame out. I'm of the opinion that any valuable hop oil is only going to go up as steam/vapour if added any earlier an not stay in the wort where I want it!

....ducks for cover


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## Effect (9/8/09)

devo said:


> I now only ever add flavour and aroma hops from 5mins to flame out. I'm of the opinion that any valuable hop oil is only going to go up as steam/vapour if added any earlier an not stay in the wort where I want it!
> 
> ....ducks for cover




so with that mindset wouldn't adding a 60 min addition also lose the valuable hop oil and not bitter then beer?


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## devo (9/8/09)

Phillip said:


> so with that mindset wouldn't adding a 60 min addition also lose the valuable hop oil and not bitter then beer?



you will only extract bitterness, not aroma from boiling from 60min plus.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/8/09)

Phillip said:


> so with that mindset wouldn't adding a 60 min addition also lose the valuable hop oil and not bitter then beer?



Hop oils are not the components that do the bittering

You have Alpha Acids - which are insoluble, and in the boil are isomerised to iso-alpha acids - which are soluble and bitter. This is your bittering part.

Then you have Hop Oils - which are the flavour and aroma bits.

The hydrocarbon bit of the hop oils is very very volatile and boils off extremely quickly. The traditional wisdom is that its all gone after a maximum of 20mins .. IMO thats over generous and anything more than a flameout or 5 min addition sees all the actual hydrocarbons outta there. This bit gives you the grassy, herbaceous characters you would associate with dry hops ... dry hopping is really the only way apart from a hopback to get significant amounts of this fraction of compound into your beer (cube hopping probably does too ... but the extended heat does stuff to the hydrocarbons)

The hop oils also have an oxidised component - several different compounds that are present in the hops and are also created from the hydro carbons under heated (but not boiling) conditions. These compounds are less volatile and in some cases even more aromatic than the hydrocarbon fraction. Some of these compounds survive a bit of boiling and they are mostly responsible for the floral, citral, spicy notes that you would associate with a traditionally "late hopped" beer.

Then there are Beta acids, oxidised alpha acids, oxidised beta acids and a bunch of other crap that just makes it more confusing... but the above stuff is the main stuff.

60 minute additions essentially boil away all the volatile aroma compounds - leaving behind mainly the non-volatile bittering stuff. The closer to the end of teh boil you add your hops, the more of the aromatic and volatile stuff remains in the beer ... but the less of the Alpha acids are converted to the bitter iso alpha acids.

Its a trade-off

TB


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## goatherder (9/8/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> There are a few around - you should be able to search em out by using "cube hopping" as a term.
> 
> I have done a few experiments - including one where I had the IBUs of a cube hopped beer measured versus one that had only been standardly hopped. And a couple of tests where I had cube hopped beer tasted by individual/groups of other brewers. Here's what it boils down to.
> 
> ...



Cheers TB, that's exactly what I was looking for.


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## jimi (9/8/09)

The last two hop accentuated brews I've cubed (APA & ESB) I've used a FWH a 10min & flame out addition. I've dropped the 30min additions I used to do and I'm happier with the results (aroma & flavour).


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