# Hefe Advice And Decoction Mashing



## manticle (14/10/09)

I've read a little bit about this in various places as well as received a bit of advice from a fellow brewer here but it's also good to learn different methods and why people do what they do.

I plan on making a hefe soon with the following recipe: 

Hefe

Size: 22 liters

Color: 4 HCU (~4 SRM) 

Bitterness: 18 IBU

OG: 1.055 

FG: 1.012

Alcohol: 5.5% v/v (4.3% w/w)

2kg British Pilsner
3kg Wheat malt
500g Rice hulls

Mash: 70% efficiency

Boil: 60 minutes 

SG 1.035 34 liter

35g Hallertauer (4.25% AA, 60 min.)

Irish moss

Wyeast 3068

I have an esky mash tun so I'm looking at doing a single or double decoction mash as described here: 

_" 
*Average 2-step method*
For Belgian pale ale, German pilsner, Munich styles and Bavarian wheat beer. 

This method takes 2.5 to 3.5 hours, depending on the grist. 
Strike temperature of 53C, stir well and rest for 20'
Stir and take 1/3 of the mash. (If you use a large proportion of unmalted grains you can take less of the mash and add water and dry crushed grains to make up 1/3 of the total volume). Heat to 72C, rest for 20' (malt) to 40' (malt+grains).
Bring to boil and boil for 15-30'
Add back to reach a temperature of 65-67C, rest 15-35'
Take 1/4 of the mash, boil for 15-30'
Add back to reach a temperature of 70-73C, rest until saccharification is complete (30'-1h).
No mash-out, start sparge immediately.
_


taken from: http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html.

What's confusing me is that some advice suggests just boiling the liquor whereas other advice recommends boiling the actual mash. My previous understanding (and the advice of aforementioned brewer) suggests this is a potential risk of tannin extraction.


What other benefits does it give to boil the actual grains that boiling liquor does not? If I just go with using the liquor my step mash will still be a step mash so are there other benefits for this style and are they worth it?


Cheers.

Also a quick question on rice hulls. I understand their purpose but am unsure of amounts. Is 500g enough and do I just chuck them in with the grains or do I need to put them in in any kind of order?


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## brettprevans (14/10/09)

rice gulls on the bottom. 500g should be heaps. i think you use less than that normally? not sure i havent ever used them
as for the boiling grains part you know my stance.


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## geoffi (14/10/09)

I use the gulls for most brews, and always with wheat. My mash tun is an esky with a ss braid. I usually put a few generous handfuls in before the grain. But I always stir the mash anyway, so I don't think the order matters. It still seems to work as I haven't had a stuck sparge using the gulls. I'm not sure of precise amounts, but they are cheap, and life is short enough without having the PITA of a stuck sparge.


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## manticle (14/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> as for the boiling grains part you know my stance.




Makes sense to me too.


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## jbirbeck (14/10/09)

Decotions are great, I do them for all my brews now. 

Boil the mash, the grains not the liquid (a bit of liquid in the boil is fine but it should be a really thick mash getting boiled). It smells great but take care to stir it as you bring it to the boil so you don't scorce the grains. Boiling the liquor kills then enzymes that convert your starches, boiling the grain adds a wonderful breadiness and maltiness to the beer without killing enzymes...I think and boiling the liquor adds nothing.

If you are using Beersmith you can choose a double decoction and that will give you volumes etc. It works quite well.

I've found it adds a nice depth of flavour and helps build up a maltiness without adding residual sweetnesss. I've also found it increases efficiency regardless of the types of grains used. I've not boiled for as long as your guide there. 

My method:

split the initial decoction up front. mash in the decotion portion at 55 degrees and let it rest for 20 mins while mashing in the main mash, bring the dedoction up to 63-65 and let it sit for 20 mins while the main mash has its protein rest and then bring the decoction to the boil and boil for 10 mins before adding it back into the main mash. Let the main mash run for 10 mins and pull the next decoction. I let the decoction sit for a bit at mash temp before heating, normally about 10 mins before bringing to the boil and boiling for 5-10. Add it back in to the main mash and get the temp up. Don't check the temp of the main mash straight after adding the decoction back in as the temp won't be even, stir it in and leave it a couple of minutes then check.

I've not step mashed so I can't comment on how it compares but I love the way decoctions add depth to the beer.


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## Effect (14/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> rice gulls on the bottom. 500g should be heaps. i think you use less than that normally? not sure i havent ever used them
> as for the boiling grains part you know my stance.




what's your stance on boiling grains?

If it is about tannins extraction, well, I have done several decoctions and I'm pretty sure a few others have as well with all good results. I think it has something to do with the pH of the liquid in which you are boiling the grains whether or not you will extract tannins.

Cheers
Phil


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## geoffi (14/10/09)

My method lately for these beers is a step mash: 40, 50, 60, 70, and 75 for a mash out. I usually just add boiling water to raise the temp, but depending on how much time I have and if I could be arsed I might do a decoction for the step to 70c. Does it make a difference? Don't know really. The result tastes good so it's working for me.


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## warra48 (14/10/09)

I know the theory of decoction mashing, and I've done a few of them myself, including several wheaties. I've never been totally satisfied with the results.

Oddly enough, I did a single infusion hefeweizen recently, with WY3068, and it has turned out to be my best hefeweizen by far.
Go figure. Maybe it was controlling the fermentation temperature to 17.5C which did it.


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## manticle (14/10/09)

I need more opinions on this please.

Boil the liquor?
Boil the grains?

And why?

Maybe I should have started a poll. I'm sure it's been covered elsewhere but some very wise (ha wieze vize ha) person should write a wiki article on this.


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## warra48 (14/10/09)

This reference might help, it's been discussed before:

Post 25 
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=26160&hl= 
by Tony 4.11.08

3068..... im my experience does go down hill with sucessive pitchings. Best to split the smack pack and grow it fresh in a starter each time.

Decoctions. Touchy subject on here. Yes they were born from necesity with poorly modified malt and yes.......... with todays malts, its not "needed" but have you ever had a run in a car with more that 300kw? It's not needed, but done corectly it does make a difference. It gives you that bit of wow factor.

I have done a heap of decoctions and if done corectly (i stress the word "correctly) thay add a fantastic maltiness to the beer without adding body and "cloyingness" associated with high mash temps usually used to acheive the same thing.

I think the secret with decoction mashing is to mash cooler than you normaly would. The process of slowly raising the pulled thick mash through the temperature range to boil adds more than enough body to make up for a lower mash temp.

I like to knock 2 or 3 deg's off what i would normally mash at for my rest temps.

My process:

mash in at 2.5 l/kg at 52 deg and immediately pull amount required for next temp step when boiling. Promash works these out for you in the complex mash scheduler. Raise the temp of the pulled thick mash (mostly grain with enough liquid to keep it fluid) to 66 deg. Hold there for 15 min to convert and then slowly raise it to boiling. Gently simmer for 10 to 15 min and pour back in the main mash and mix like hell.

At this point note the smell of boiling mash and also notice the colour development!

Rest it at the desired temp........ for a wheat i use 63 to 64 for 30 min and pull a thin decoction (liquid only) and bring strait to the boil. Add this back in to acheive 71 deg and rest for 10 to 20 min and then mash out at this temp.

Sparge as normal

Thats all i do and it adds a deep maltiness with the beer being crisp and refreshing. Thats the difference. 

Oh...... you will get a deeper more saturated type colour the the beer too.

cheers


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## Fourstar (14/10/09)

manticle said:


> I have an esky mash tun so I'm looking at doing a single or double decoction mash as described here:
> taken from: http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html.



* Without coming off as an absolute twat...

Here is a very good reference for decoction mashing. you might find something of interest: 
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...coction_Mashing

I'd recommend a ferulic acid rest as your 1st port of call to help throw clove esters during fermentation Try and get your pH at around 5.6 as this emphasises the cloviness. Considering you have the same water supply as me i'd suggest adding 5g of CaCl to your mash water, this will keep the pH close to 5.6~. If you dont add anything it will be closer to or higher than 5.7 which wont do much during that rest step. If thats the case, do your decoction as you please. i'd recommend a "Hochkurz Double Decoction" as outlined in my link.

Oh, BTW, if you do a protein rest, keep it @ 55deg, no less. You do not want to degrade any meduim chain proteins, otherwise you risk thinning out the body excessivly and reducing head retention.

Cheers bud.


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## AndrewQLD (14/10/09)

My suggestion if doing a ferulic acid rest is to keep it under 10 minutes, any longer and you risk the clove flavors and aromas totally dominating the brew, the longer you leave it the more intense it becomes.

I dropped the ferulic rest on my last Weizen and had only slight traces of clove, but with a 15 minute rest it was very pronounced and a twenty minute rest it was too intense.

Andrew


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## Screwtop (14/10/09)

Pretty sure my stance on this is well documented. 50/50 Pale (not Pils) and Wheat malt, single infusion 66 then ferment at 22 using 3068 for a banana and bubblegum sweetish Weizen. Step mash/decoction of 60% Wheat and 40% Pils same yeast and fermentation temp for a lighter coloured, dry, more clovey Weizen. If decocting use a thin mash 3.5L/Kg I don't need rice hulls using this method.

Screwy


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## Effect (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Here is a very good reference for decoction mashing. you might find something of interest:
> http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...coction_Mashing




I PM'ed him that long ago...


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## Effect (14/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Pretty sure my stance on this is well documented. 50/50 Pale (not Pils) and Wheat malt, single infusion 66 then ferment at 22 using 3068 for a banana and bubblegum sweetish Weizen. Step mash/decoction of 60% Wheat and 40% Pils same yeast and fermentation temp for a lighter coloured, dry, more clovey Weizen. If decocting use a thin mash 3.5L/Kg I don't need rice hulls using this method.
> 
> Screwy




both methods are fermented with the same yeast and same temp...so why the difference with the banana/bubblegum and clove? I get that it would be paler and drier because of the extra wheat, but would that really change the yeast profile?

Cheers
Phil


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## raven19 (14/10/09)

warra48 said:


> 3068..... im my experience does go down hill with sucessive pitchings. Best to split the smack pack and grow it fresh in a starter each time.



I would concur with this.

The more important thing with a wheat beer imo is the ferment temperature.

Made a Weizen with a smackpack and had a good mix of banana and clove (albeit fermented at higher temps), enter the Dunkelwiezen in the keg now fermented at a cooler temp and the 'bland' clove like taste is not as impressive by any means.

Make sure your ferment temps are top notch and where you want them to be in terms of banana/clove in a weizen.

Lez the Weizguy is your friend on this one... (worth a PM imo - sorry Lez!)

My 2c only. :icon_cheers:


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## Sammus (14/10/09)

I know it doesn't really help because I can't back it up, but I remember reading somewhere that boiling grains in a decoction wont extract tannins the same way as boiling them in a full boil. I can't recall the reason unfortunately, something to do with the gravity and thickness of what you're boiling. If you want something more empirical, I've done a million decoctions and havent noticed any astringency in any of them.

Decocting properly (ie boiling grains) <insert verb I can't think of here> maillard reactions which I think is the point of them - it adds a dimension of maltiness that's hard to obtain otherwise. Boiling just the liquid is just boiling liquid, you dont get much happening until you drive nearly all the water out and get a syrup, and if you keep boiling it you darken it and change it chemically, a process called caramelisation, and you'll end up with toffee or caramel or something similar. If you dont take it that far, boiling the liquid isn't doing a lot for you, but it can be useful for step mashing without decocting, particularly if you want to do a few steps and a sparge and your only way of stepping is with infusion - do a bunch of steps all with clean boiling water infusions and you end up with way too much liquor

anyway, sorry about the ramble, I hope it made some kind of sense.

slightly OT: if you've ever taste dulce de leche and thought it tasted kinda like caramel, but a different, thats because caramel is caramelised and dulce de leche is maillardised


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## RdeVjun (15/10/09)

Sammus said:


> I know it doesn't really help because I can't back it up, but I remember reading somewhere that boiling grains in a decoction wont extract tannins the same way as boiling them in a full boil. I can't recall the reason unfortunately, something to do with the gravity and thickness of what you're boiling. If you want something more empirical, I've done a million decoctions and havent noticed any astringency in any of them.


I read somewhere (3rd- last para) it was the lowering pH that prevents tannin (and I presume, astringency) extraction. 
I'm not a decocter though, just curious... very curious in fact.


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## newguy (15/10/09)

[This is a cut & paste of a column I wrote regarding decoction for my club's newsletter some time ago]

The first time I did a decoction, I honestly couldnt have been more discouraged/angry. Every brewer Ive talked to who has done a decoction has a similar story. Its somewhat of a rite of passage.

When I did my first decoction, I did 5 gallon batches in my apartments kitchen using a 48 qt Coleman cooler as my mash tun. I boiled on an ordinary stove. An ordinary ~1.050 or so batch would take about 6 hours from start until cleanup. My first decoction took about 13 hours. Dont laugh, its not nice.

By the 3rd time I attempted a decoction (Im a stubborn guy thats why the first lousy experience didnt stop me from trying again), I got the time down to about 7 hours total for a full triple decoction.

The most important thing to remember is dont get upset if you miss a target temperature. The beer will still turn out. That aside, preparation is the key to a successful (short) decoction mash. You have to move quick and keep moving.

To be honest, a full triple decoction (approx 100F to 120F to 150F to 170F) is a waste of time. You can achieve the same flavours by going with a simple single decoction (120F to 150F or 150F to 170F). Of course, the temperatures I quote here are approximate I simply want to relate the acid rest, protein rest, saccharification rest, and mash out temperatures.

A decoction yields an almost impossible to describe spiciness/maltiness to the finished beer. Once you do a decoction, you will always recognize that taste.

Your system will ultimately dictate the final volumes necessary for the decoction, but with the system I mentioned earlier, pretty much dead on 30% of the total mash volume for each decoction would be pulled. Simply take a large measuring cup and scoop out the thickest part of the mash (mostly grain) for steps from 120F to 150F or for 100F 120F (acid rest to protein rest). For the mashout step, instead withdraw (pull) the thinnest part of the mash (mostly liquid). The decoction is then placed on the stove or a propane cooker and boiled. IT MUST BE STIRRED! Failure to stir the decoction is a sure fire way to scorch it. Once it starts vigorously boiling, stirring is no longer necessary as the movement of the grain is sufficient to prevent scorching.

The decoction should be boiled for at least 5 minutes before being added back to the mash. One of the biggest sources of concern is the time that withdrawing 30% of the mash and separately boiling it takes. To minimize this time, you should really withdraw the decoction no more than 5 minutes after your previous target temperature is hit.

Regarding tannins, the pH of the mash is (or should be) low enough to inhibit tannin extraction when the decoction is boiled. If you're concerned, use a pH test strip to measure the mash pH beforehand. It should be approximately 5 - 5.5. I personally use phosphoric acid at a rate of 1 ml/10 l of water to get my pH into the proper range.

I've attached an excel workbook I developed that helps to predict mash temperatures after the decoction is added back to the main mash.

View attachment decoction_workbook.xls


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## manticle (15/10/09)

Great information there thankyou. I think I'll go for a single for my first attempt.


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Phillip said:


> I PM'ed him that long ago...



Well, thats no help for everyone else if its sitting in his Inbox now is it.


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## Screwtop (15/10/09)

Phillip said:


> both methods are fermented with the same yeast and same temp...so why the difference with the banana/bubblegum and clove? I get that it would be paler and drier because of the extra wheat, but would that really change the yeast profile?
> 
> Cheers
> Phil




Phil, try both methods for your own experience. I find that using higher proportions of wheat gives a more tart (naturally, this is what wheat contributes) flavour and the lower temp steps contribute more clove phenols which to my palate overpower the banana/bubblegum produced by wheat yeast strains. Hence my quote


> more clovey Weizen


. Using Pale rather than Pils adds a little more mouthfeel and colour, 50/50 pale/wheat and a single decoction for me produces a sweeter weizen and allows more pronounciation of yeast esters (banana/bubblegum) due to less wheat tartness and cloveyness.

Hope that makes sense, thats how it is for me. 

I went off on a tangent for quite a while making Weizens in the more traditional way chasing more of the yeast esters only to find that the beers were more tart and clovey. Fine summer quaffers but the banana/bubblegum that I liked was lacking.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Using Pale rather than Pils adds a little more mouthfeel and colour, 50/50 pale/wheat and a single decoction for me produces a sweeter weizen and allows more pronounciation of yeast esters (banana/bubblegum) due to less wheat tartness and cloveyness.



Interesting Screwy! What pilsner have you been using as i usually find JW pils to be rather sweet on its own. You can always bulk up with a little carapils to aid in mild pilsner style 'sweetness' too.


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## Screwtop (15/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Interesting Screwy! What pilsner have you been using as i usually find JW pils to be rather sweet on its own. You can always bulk up with a little carapils to aid in mild pilsner style 'sweetness' too.




40% Wey Pils, with pale I use 50/50 so there is a diff.

Screwy


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> 40% Wey Pils, with pale I use 50/50 so there is a diff.
> 
> Screwy



Have you used JW pils? What are you using BB? i usually find it to be sweet.


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## Screwtop (15/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Have you used JW pils? What are you using BB? i usually find it to be sweet.




You related to Tony Barber :lol:

Yes I've used JW and Powells Pils and Galaxy. I prefer 50/50 Pale of any description and Pale Wheat malt. When I say sweet I mean attenuation wise, not so dry, so the balance is more toward the yeast esters than the phenols from the wheat. It's more about the percentage of wheat. Just so happens I prefer Pale as the 50%. 

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> You related to Tony Barber :lol:
> 
> Yes I've used JW and Powells Pils and Galaxy. I prefer 50/50 Pale of any description and Pale Wheat malt. When I say sweet I mean attenuation wise, not so dry, so the balance is more toward the yeast esters than the phenols from the wheat. It's more about the percentage of wheat. Just so happens I prefer Pale as the 50%.
> 
> ...



The Tony Barber went straight over my head....

Ahh sweet by attenuation, i get ya. You could always adjust the mash temp for that but i know what you mean, weizens can appear to be quite thin in the body due to high carbonation and the % of wheat used.


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## Screwtop (15/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> The Tony Barber went straight over my head....



OK now stand up on your chair so that doesn't happen again...............ready........Tony Barber was a game show host. He asked a lot of questions.




Fourstar said:


> i know what you mean, weizens can appear to be quite thin in the body due to high carbonation and the % of wheat used.



Yay, you got what I was trying so hard to describe, I find it hard to get from mind to fingers. You can up the OG of stepped 60/40's and get them to finish with a higher FG but the tartness and cloveyness still overrides the yeast esters. Lowering attenuation by changing the mash regime to a single infusion at 66 (on my system) allows me to keep the ABV down and sweetness up and less wheat reduces the tartness. All of that tips the balance toward favouring the yeast esters of banana and bubblegum.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> OK now stand up on your chair so that doesn't happen again...............ready........Tony Barber was a game show host. He asked a lot of questions.



Thanks Smartarse  I know who Tony Barber is, i didnt get what you where alluding to! I prefer John Burgess! :lol:

Interesting concept you have for the whole banana/bubblegum. Do you usually slightly underpitch and/or ferment hot to stress the critters?


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## Weizguy (15/10/09)

my 2cents worth, as a weizen appreciator:

Single decoction seems to help the body and maltiness (that certain something). Double decoction doesn't help much more, as with triple.
I would still do a double though, if time permits.

Single infusion mash still makes a great beer (at 66C), with either ale malt or pils malt.

Brew more wheat beer and experiment to find out what appeals to your tastebuds.

Les


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## Screwtop (15/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Thanks Smartarse  I know who Tony Barber is, i didnt get what you where alluding to! I prefer John Burgess! :lol:
> 
> Interesting concept you have for the whole banana/bubblegum. Do you usually slightly underpitch and/or ferment hot to stress the critters?



There you go again :lol: see below.



Screwtop said:


> single infusion 66 then ferment at 22 using 3068





Les the Weizguy said:


> my 2cents worth, as a weizen appreciator:
> 
> Single decoction seems to help the body and maltiness (that certain something). Double decoction doesn't help much more, as with triple.
> I would still do a double though, if time permits.
> ...



Do what Les says, oh...and stop asking so many questions :lol:

Screwy


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> There you go again :lol: see below.
> Do what Les says, oh...and stop asking so many questions :lol:
> 
> Screwy



Oh one more! h34r: Do you underpitch to stress the yeast? Asking again as you didnt answer it Screwy! :lol:


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## Screwtop (15/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Oh one more! h34r: Do you underpitch to stress the yeast? Asking again as you didnt answer it Screwy! :lol:




Underpitching is not the only way to stress yeast, go look it up. Have underpitched a 60/40 step mashed Weizen but not had the desired increase in Iaoamyl.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## manticle (15/10/09)

Some really good points made here fourstar: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry537041

particularly thirsty Boy's posts.


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Underpitching is not the only way to stress yeast, go look it up. Have underpitched a 60/40 step mashed Weizen but not had the desired increase in Iaoamyl.
> Cheers,
> Screwy





manticle said:


> Some really good points made here fourstar: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry537041
> particularly thirsty Boy's posts.



Yeah guys i was referring to what Thirsty is talking about, lower pitching rates, not severely underpitching. e.g. shooting for 700,000 cells per L compared to 750000 per L. Get the yeast to throw some more esters during the growth phase.

Cheers.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (15/10/09)

Holy Crap!

Is there not a beer style you're NOT an expert at brewing Fourstar?

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (15/10/09)

Bugger that I want to know how he's going to count all those yeast cells with his naked eye. :lol: 

Warren -


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## Fourstar (15/10/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Holy Crap!
> Is there not a beer style you're NOT an expert at brewing Fourstar?
> C&B
> TDA


Not an expert at anything, dont claim to be. I dont know alot about brewing a good weizen on the ferment side of things besides a ferulic acid rest for pushing clove. Which is why ive been asking all these questions.

Oh, anything Belgian... I know SFA.



warrenlw63 said:


> Bugger that I want to know how he's going to count all those yeast cells with his naked eye. :lol:
> Warren -



Im not, its guesstimated from pitching calculators/avg cell densities/growth. Its more accuratly guesstimated if im drawing off yeast post ferment for a re-pitch. I wouldn't be suprised if im shooting for 700,000 and end up pitching 750,000 anyway.

Cell counts are a pretty stock standard thing you need to know if you are building yeast from slants or growing up a starter. 750k/L for ales or 1.5million per L for lagers. But i'm sure you already knew that. Isn't there anyone else you are interested in 'baiting' Warren?


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## Weizguy (16/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Oh one more! h34r: Do you underpitch to stress the yeast? Asking again as you didnt answer it Screwy! :lol:


Stressing the yeast is not the best thing for yeast - stating this up front. May be really bad for subsequent pitchings...

To produce more esters, I have been known to pitch a 600ml (PET bottle) culture.
Slightly warmer temps (say, up to 22C) also favour the production of esters.
More squat fermentor vessel shape also favours esters, and the opposite applies to taller, thinner vessels (clean lager anyone?)

(*...a craving for) Excessive esters is a fad that wears off, but may take a few years.
I have been fermenting my W3068 and W3638 at 17C, as recommended by Jamil and find that I get the right blend of commercial flavours (as found in commercial weizens). Also apply this ferment temp to Roggenbier, at the pitching rate recommended by Mr Malty's website.
Perhaps it's the cooler temp and the relative underpitching for that temp that provides the right balance.

Will be doing the same with my roggenbier to be pitched this weekend. Just getting a culture up to the right numbers at the moment.

Les out

*edited to add readability, IMHO*


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## Screwtop (16/10/09)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Stressing the yeast is not the best thing for yeast - stating this up front. May be really bad for subsequent pitchings...
> 
> To produce more esters, I have been known to pitch a 600ml (PET bottle) culture.
> Slightly warmer temps (say, up to 22C) also favour the production of esters.
> ...




TAKE NOTES FOURSTAR.......He knows!!!!!!


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## Fourstar (16/10/09)

Les the Weizguy said:


> To produce more esters, I have been known to pitch a 600ml (PET bottle) culture.
> Slightly warmer temps (say, up to 22C) also favour the production of esters.
> More squat fermentor vessel shape also favours esters, and the opposite applies to taller, thinner vessels (clean lager anyone?)
> 
> ...



Cheers Les, By 600ml culture, what kind of pitching rate is this approx? Is it a smack pack in say 500ml of wort? Just so i know how much to build up~. I havn't done a Weizen since reading brewing classic styles. 17 sounds like the perfect number thou. I did mine at 20 and was still quite clovely but pushed some fruit as well.



Screwtop said:


> TAKE NOTES FOURSTAR.......He knows!!!!!!



Have done bigguy!


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## Weizguy (19/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Cheers Les, By 600ml culture, what kind of pitching rate is this approx? Is it a smack pack in say 500ml of wort? Just so i know how much to build up~. I havn't done a Weizen since reading brewing classic styles. 17 sounds like the perfect number thou. I did mine at 20 and was still quite clovely but pushed some fruit as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Have done bigguy!


The 600 ml culture was done in the past, and provided as an example. Was basically the sediment from a single bottle of weizen, cultured up to, say 500ml, in a 600 ml PET bottle.

Would recommend, for pitching at 17C, that you use the Mr Malty pitching calculator. It works out to about a 1.5 litre culture for 25 litre batch of beer, depending on your production method (stir-plate, oxygen injection, shaking etc).


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## Fourstar (19/10/09)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Would recommend, for pitching at 17C, that you use the Mr Malty pitching calculator. It works out to about a 1.5 litre culture for 25 litre batch of beer, depending on your production method (stir-plate, oxygen injection, shaking etc).



Fantastic Les!

Thanks for all the top info! I usually go off the Mr. Malty calculator anyway so it wont be hard to remember the pitching rate. 

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (29/10/09)

Brewing this weekend.

Total mash water will be around 13-15 L.

The process I have worked out is: Heat 8-10 L strike water to 55 degrees. Add to grain, rest 10 minutes (hopefully with some adjusting with hot and cold water it will hit 45 deg for ferulic acid rest).

Heat remaining strike water to 60 deg. Again with adjusting I hope to be able to hit 55 for protein rest. Rest 20 minutes.

Then I take 1/3 of the mash (including some liquid) and bring to boil in a pot. I boil for 20 - 30 minutes and slowly add back in until I'm around 64 degrees then mash for 60 mins.

Questions: 

1. Is this correct or retarded?
2. Am I likely to have a bit of mash left over in which case should I add cold water and adjust temp so I can use it all (assuming I hit temp early)?
4. Do I rest the whole mash for 20 minutes AND THEN take out the decoction part so in fact the protein rest is as long as the decoction part takes to boil PLUS the original 20 mins? (eg. protein rest is actually closer to an hour?)
3. Is this correct or retarded?


I have been reading a few different sources on decoction so this method is based on those. Obviously with a triple decoction I would be adding the full volume of strike water to the tun for the ferulic acid rest but I'd like to keep it a bit simple for the first one and do single decoction but still 3 step mash- hence the slightly lower volume during ferulic rest. Will this have any major effect (still unsure why 2.5 - 3 L per kg is the recommended amount but it's what I usually go for).

Cheers


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## geoffi (29/10/09)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Stressing the yeast is not the best thing for yeast - stating this up front. May be really bad for subsequent pitchings...




My experience is that these yeasts don't lend themselves to repitching anyway. Subsequent brews always seem to lack the character of the first generation.


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## newguy (29/10/09)

manticle said:


> Brewing this weekend.
> 
> Total mash water will be around 13-15 L.
> 
> ...



So you want to do an acid rest, then add hot water to hit a protein rest, right? There's nothing wrong with this approach per se, but acid rests only lower the mash pH if your water is soft. If your water isn't soft, don't bother. The acid formed during that rest isn't very...."strong"....and if your water has appreciable mineral content (ie more than soft water) they'll neutralise the acid as it's formed.

You can leave the mash for 20 minutes before pulling the decoction but as you said, that means your mash will remain at the protein rest for at least an hour. I did it this way the first few times then I said screw it and pulled the decoction immediately. It saves a ton of time and it prevents your mash from 1) remaining at a rest temp too long and 2) cooling off appreciably over that period. I didn't notice any difference in flavour when I did it this way but I did notice more head retention.

Finally, no need to boil the decoction for more than 5 minutes. Don't hold any back either, just dump the whole works into the main mash. Have about 1l of boiling water on hand in case you came out low and just dump in some cold water if you're too hot. Just don't be too hasty with the water; allow things to settle for at least 3 minutes before adding boiling or cold water, and be frugal with the cold water if you're too hot. A little will go a long way.


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## manticle (29/10/09)

Water is untreated Melbourne water so fairly soft. I was aiming for a ferulic acid rest rather than a general one but only because I've read that it's often done for wheats. Any information on the whys, wherefores and differences between the two is most welcome.

I like the 'bang it all in' approach though - I don't like to get too cautious if I don't have to.

Thanks.


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## altstart (29/10/09)

Hey Guys anybody ever done a Hefe useing a Herms set up and how did it turn out?.
Cheers Altstart


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## newguy (30/10/09)

altstart said:


> Hey Guys anybody ever done a Hefe useing a Herms set up and how did it turn out?.
> Cheers Altstart



Several and they turned out just fine. With a high wheat % I typically dough in at roughly protein rest temp, then let the system bring it up to sacch rest. Turns out perfect for me without any issues with the mash sticking. Depending on your system you may need rice hulls to prevent sticking.


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## manticle (30/10/09)

For the benefit of anybody considering doing their first decoction and reading over my summary of intentions - there's one basic thing missing.

The first decoction should be brought up to mash temp (62-63 Deg) and held there for 20 minutes or so to convert before being brought to the boil.

A few other bits of advice I've been given too which should help thanks to screwtop but I thought that was an imprtant one and worth mentioning. Otherwise one third of my mash will have no maltose.


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## newguy (30/10/09)

manticle said:


> For the benefit of anybody considering doing their first decoction and reading over my summary of intentions - there's one basic thing missing.
> 
> The first decoction should be brought up to mash temp (62-63 Deg) and held there for 20 minutes or so to convert before being brought to the boil.
> 
> A few other bits of advice I've been given too which should help thanks to screwtop but I thought that was an imprtant one and worth mentioning. Otherwise one third of my mash will have no maltose.



You actually don't need to dwell the decoction at sacch rest temp if your malt is fairly "hot", enzymatically speaking. Most 2 row is. I did let mine dwell the first few times but I stopped eventually and I didn't notice a difference in extraction, fermentability or flavour. The big savings is with regard to time.

You'll know once you do it; the decoction is initially very flour-like (cloudy) but as you heat it, it suddenly gets less viscous and clears very rapidly. It's amazing how sweet it gets as well. Just keep heat applied and keep stirring with a flat-bottomed utensil to keep the grain at the bottom of the pot moving. You'll save a lot of time and the result will be the same as if you did the 20 minute pause. Trust me, I've done it literally dozens of times.


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## Fourstar (30/10/09)

newguy said:


> So you want to do an acid rest, then add hot water to hit a protein rest, right? There's nothing wrong with this approach per se, but acid rests only lower the mash pH if your water is soft. If your water isn't soft, don't bother. The acid formed during that rest isn't very...."strong"....and if your water has appreciable mineral content (ie more than soft water) they'll neutralise the acid as it's formed.



Hey Newguy,

Hes taliking about a ferulic acid rest to force the yeast to throw clove esters. Mants, just to make sure you get the Mash pH right for this our local water has a mash ph of around 5.7 with base malt and no salt additions it should be ok. Just dough in for your ferulic acid rest and then adjust with salts accordingly when getting to sacch temps (if you are doing it) If you are not using mineral additions, you can get away with none as we are lucky to have soft balanced water and the mash pH will be fine anyway


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## manticle (30/10/09)

Lots of information to take in. I'm planning on mashing tonight and boiling tomorrow so I guess I'll just jump in at the deep end. I'm likely to stick with a schedule suggested by screwtop which involves the sacch rest for the decoction. As I get more familiar with the process I might try Newguy's method and see if I notice any difference.

Everybody pray to the hefe gods for me.

Cheers


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## newguy (30/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Hey Newguy,
> 
> Hes taliking about a ferulic acid rest to force the yeast to throw clove esters.



Oh okay. I've never had issues getting clove from 3068 myself. Banana is another story, but I always get lots of clove.

Good luck Manticle. You'll probably be frustrated and angry once this first decoction is done but I'm pretty sure you'll be pleased with the finished beer. Just remember that any decoctions you do after this will go much better.

Here's to your best weizen yet! :beer:


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## manticle (30/10/09)

Just added water for ferulic acid so fingers crossed.

I'm a bit dumb - I have to leave the house at 9ish and it's now nearly 7 so I'm going to be pushing it. I'm also rough as guts with my water additions etc.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Clove is what I'm after, schofferhoffer being the inspiration.


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## manticle (31/10/09)

That was the roughest brew ever. I sped everything up on account of being limited in time so who knows what will go wrong. Just boiling now. Expected SG was hit pretty much spot on so I guess I must have done something right. We'll see how she turns out. Thanks for all the advice. It can only get better from here (actually wasn't so bad).


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## newguy (31/10/09)

newguy said:


> You'll probably be frustrated and angry once this first decoction is done but I'm pretty sure you'll be pleased with the finished beer. Just remember that any decoctions you do after this will go much better.






manticle said:


> That was the roughest brew ever.



See.  They honestly get a lot better. The first is always the worst, but will be every bit worth the effort once you taste it.


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## Fourstar (31/10/09)

manticle said:


> That was the roughest brew ever. I sped everything up on account of being limited in time so who knows what will go wrong. Just boiling now. Expected SG was hit pretty much spot on so I guess I must have done something right. We'll see how she turns out. Thanks for all the advice. It can only get better from here (actually wasn't so bad).



Hopefully she's ready come swap time hey!


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## manticle (31/10/09)

Actually the decoction part was not so bad. I only did the one to go from ferulic acid to saccharification.

It was the normal parts of my mashing regime that were rough - on account of leaving myself such a tight time frame in which to do everything I didn't recirculate and my usual batch sparging technique was hurried along quite a lot.

@fourstar - on account of wheats being best drunk fresh there's even a small chance this could end up being my swap beer. I have a few to choose from now.


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## Fourstar (31/10/09)

manticle said:


> @fourstar - on account of wheats being best drunk fresh there's even a small chance this could end up being my swap beer. I have a few to choose from now.








_
Excellent! Hahahaha!_


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## manticle (3/11/09)

Little update - the brew has been fermenting in a laundry sink water bath at around 17.

It's now sitting at 1010 and tastes exactly how I'd hoped - hints of clove and banana, slightly tart and dry. I'm well pleased and assuming nothing goes wrong, I reckon it will be a good first attempt. Hoping to do a dunkelweizen using the top cropped yeast (very healthy looking krausen from this yeast) once this is bottled.

One question - I have read that hefes are often highly carbonated (as much as 4 vol). I'm a lower carb type man and I don't immediately think of beers like schofferhoffer as being highly fizzy. What is the experience of other people (both drinking and brewing) in this regard?


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## pdilley (3/11/09)

I did a high carb route once. Don't recommend it, low carb is my preferences and how I do all my beers.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## manticle (3/11/09)

Cheers. I normally carb to about 2.4 max so I might look at between 2.5 and 3. 

4 is just a bit out of my world.


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## Fourstar (3/11/09)

manticle said:


> Cheers. I normally carb to about 2.4 max so I might look at between 2.5 and 3.
> 
> 4 is just a bit out of my world.



I'd shoot for 2.8 if you can, you will have some visible spritz for a few mintues after you pour and you can also pour it easily enough without pouring nothing but head.


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## dr K (3/11/09)

A late reply, but none the les: (ha ha)
If you put decoction in an historical context then you will understand that long b4 messrs Farhenheit and Celcius came up with a way of accurate and therefore repeatable temperature measurement we had the rule of thumb and decoction. You warm some water up till its just right, mix in the grain (at about 2:1) and after a bit take out about a third of the wet grain, leaving the enzyme rich liquid behind in a now thinner mash, you boil the thick porridge, and I mean boil, and not just for a few minutes, think of making polenta and you are on the way. You mix this back in, pull out another third and repeat, guess what, you have just done a stepped mash without a thermometer but hit most of the temps you need, you have also gelatinised the undermodfied malts you would have been using a few hundred years ago and made the whole process a lot more efficient, you have also burnt yourself from the hot mud like popping decoction.
So what happens to the tannins, well they stay in the husks (sort of but that will do), you get tannins when you oversparge, just from the volume of water, and generally speaking even high levels of tannins are not overly detectable (cf a long brewed cup of tea), the general problems with polyphenols in beer is the lack of colloidal stability rather than a noticeable astringent taste. You do not get tannins when you decoct because the liquor to grain ratio is so low, now do not for a minute think that Im going to get dragged into the BIAB deadbeat over this.

K


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## manticle (3/11/09)

Ended up boiling and stirring for a good 30+ minutes. Just did the single decoction but wacked in a protein rest after taking out the mash by just adding hot water.

Process was ferulic acid: 20 mins
Remove mash, bring to 64, hold for 20 mins
Meanwhile bring main mash to 55 for protein rest (was advised this was unnecessary but I'm only ever going to figure that out by trying and comparing).
Boil and stir decoction for 30 mins
Add decoction to main mash.
Adjust temp to 64 with hot/cold water.

I didn't recirculate (lack of time - had to be somewhere).
Batch sparged
Missed OG by around 5 points so added a touch of dissolved, cooled DME


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## hefevice (3/11/09)

manticle said:


> Little update - the brew has been fermenting in a laundry sink water bath at around 17.
> 
> It's now sitting at 1010 and tastes exactly how I'd hoped - hints of clove and banana, slightly tart and dry. I'm well pleased and assuming nothing goes wrong, I reckon it will be a good first attempt. Hoping to do a dunkelweizen using the top cropped yeast (very healthy looking krausen from this yeast) once this is bottled.
> 
> One question - I have read that hefes are often highly carbonated (as much as 4 vol). I'm a lower carb type man and I don't immediately think of beers like schofferhoffer as being highly fizzy. What is the experience of other people (both drinking and brewing) in this regard?



Wow, 1.010. Was that down from the original 1.055 planned (you indicated you missed your OG, but not sure how much you compensated)? If so, that's bloody good attenuation for a hefe.

I typically aim for 3 volumes. Personally I like higher levels of carbonation in Hefe's (although not as high as 4). Weihenstephan is my ideal.


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## manticle (3/11/09)

From memory OG was closer to 1045. Malt probably upped it to around 1050 but since it was added the following day after pitching the yeast, it's hard to tell exactly. I was also a bit rough with my DME addition. Maybe 300-400g? 3068 seems a feisty little yeast.


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## manticle (6/11/09)

Last question (I think). She's been on 1010 for over 3 days now. Normally at this point I'd leave another 3- 5 days to let the yeast clean up then bung it in the fridge for 3-7 days cold conditioning, fine then bottle.

As hefe is meant to be drunk fresh will I lose anything from this process? Should I cold condition now or wait as per normal? Carbon dioxide is still coming out of solution (and still a fair wack of krausen) - normally when I cc the beer has gone back to flat.

Cheers.


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## AndrewQLD (6/11/09)

altstart said:


> Hey Guys anybody ever done a Hefe useing a Herms set up and how did it turn out?.
> Cheers Altstart



I do them all the time Altstart and they turn out great, it's easy doing the step mashes in the HERMS, I did one on the brew day you came for. 

I have dropped the ferulic acid rest and opted for a 15 minute protein rest instead, I was getting WAYYYY to much clove doing the ferulic rest to the point of it being undrinkable. Since I've gone to a 55, 62, 72 and 78 mash regime my Heffes are great.

Cheers
Andrew


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## newguy (6/11/09)

manticle said:


> Last question (I think). She's been on 1010 for over 3 days now. Normally at this point I'd leave another 3- 5 days to let the yeast clean up then bung it in the fridge for 3-7 days cold conditioning, fine then bottle.
> 
> As hefe is meant to be drunk fresh will I lose anything from this process? Should I cold condition now or wait as per normal? Carbon dioxide is still coming out of solution (and still a fair wack of krausen) - normally when I cc the beer has gone back to flat.



I don't keg any of my brews, weizens included, until the foam on the surface subsides. Once the surface is more-or-less foam free I know the yeast has done all it can and it's safe to keg. It sounds like you have a day or three to go.

Once your beer gets to that point, just bottle immediately. You won't be gaining anything by cold conditioning, other than dropping out the yeast. If you're after a crystal weizen that's fine but I like them mit hefe and I try to get as much yeast into the keg as possible. It just doesn't taste the same once the beer starts running clear from the keg.

How does it taste?


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## manticle (6/11/09)

I'm impressed with the taste. Hints of banana and clove with neither being overpowering. That's why I'm loath to go my usual 'clean up' process as I know what I'd normally be trying to clean/flocc out is what's responsible for the goodness. I might leave it till Sunday or Monday then bottle. The sample is still a touch fizzy and usually I wait till it's no longer so before proceeding to the next phase.


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## hefevice (6/11/09)

manticle said:


> I'm impressed with the taste. Hints of banana and clove with neither being overpowering. That's why I'm loath to go my usual 'clean up' process as I know what I'd normally be trying to clean/flocc out is what's responsible for the goodness. I might leave it till Sunday or Monday then bottle. The sample is still a touch fizzy and usually I wait till it's no longer so before proceeding to the next phase.



Keg it! I've kegged most of mine at between 7 and 14 days. I normally ramp up the temperature from 17 to 20C over 3 days after the krausen starts to subside (normally 3-4 days). Main issue I have had kegging early is a bit of sulphur on the nose for a few days, but that goes away pretty quick.

First time I brewed one I crashed chilled it in the fermenter before kegging, and it turned out more like a Kristall. I don't do that anymore.

Kegged last batch (brewed on October 25) on Wednesday and carbed it this morning. Can't wait to get home to try it as it tasted great out of the fermenter.


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## manticle (6/11/09)

hefevice said:


> Keg it!



I'm a bottling man.


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## hefevice (6/11/09)

manticle said:


> I'm a bottling man.



D'oh, yeah...missed that. Time to start


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## O'Henry (9/11/09)

I know I am a little late on this one, but I have carbed at 4 vols for a hefe and it was fine. There was head, but it wasn't massive. I found it very refreshing. That said, when I bottle my next hefe this week I will be aiming for 3-3.2, so am sure this will be fine. Btw, I too favour low carb but a hefe is just so refreshing when it has that little extra...


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## raven19 (10/11/09)

A higher carbonation will also bring out a little more bitterness, bite and acidity in the brew due to increase levels of carbonic acid...

Maybe bulk prime half of the batch a little higher for a side by side? :icon_cheers:


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