# Style Of The Week 22/11/06 - Witbier



## Stuster

By special request, and following on an interesting thread on the topic this week, we move to Belgium for witbier, style 16A of the BJCP guidelines. The most famous example is obviously Hoegaarden, the beer that revived the style, a great beer for the hot weather.

Some links for more info on and history of the style.
BT article on Witbier
All about beer article
Doc's tips
Another AHB thread on witbier
Brewing Network radio show on witbier
There are also a couple of recipes in the recipe section that look good. :chug: 

So what are your experiences with this style? Grains? Hops? Which yeast to use? Any dry yeast? What spices/peels to add? What temperature did you do your fermentation at? Can this style be done by partial mashers? Kit based brewers who've won BoS in this style?

Tell us all you know about this style. :super: 



> 16A. Witbier
> 
> Aroma: Moderate sweetness (often with light notes of honey and/or vanilla) with light, grainy, spicy wheat aromatics, often with a bit of tartness. Moderate perfumy coriander, often with a complex herbal, spicy, or peppery note in the background. Moderate zesty, orangey fruitiness. A low spicy-herbal hop aroma is optional, but should never overpower the other characteristics. No diacetyl. Vegetal, celery-like, or ham-like aromas from certain types of spices are inappropriate. Spices should blend in with fruity, floral and sweet aromas and should not be overly strong.
> 
> Appearance: Very pale straw to very light gold in color. The beer will be very cloudy from starch haze and/or yeast, which gives it a milky, whitish-yellow appearance. Dense, white, moussy head. Head retention should be quite good.
> 
> Flavor: Pleasant sweetness (often with a honey and/or vanilla character) and a zesty, orange-citrusy fruitiness. Refreshingly crisp with a dry, often tart, finish. Can have a low wheat flavor. Optionally has a very light lactic-tasting sourness. Herbal-spicy flavors are common but not overpowering, and can taste moderately of coriander and other spices at a more subtle level. A spicy-earthy hop flavor is low to none, and never gets in the way of the spices. Hop bitterness is low to medium-low (as with a Hefeweizen), and doesn't interfere with refreshing flavors of fruit and spice, nor does it persist into the finish. Bitterness from orange pith should not be present. Vegetal, celery-like, ham-like, or soapy flavors from certain types of spices are inappropriate. No diacetyl.
> 
> Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body, often having a smoothness and light creaminess from unmalted wheat and the occasional oats. Despite body and creaminess, finishes dry and often a bit tart. Effervescent character from high carbonation. Refreshing, from carbonation, light acidity, and lack of bitterness in finish. No harshness or astringency from orange pith. Should not be overly dry and thin, nor should it be thick and heavy.
> 
> Overall Impression: A refreshing, elegant, tasty, moderate-strength wheat-based ale.
> 
> History: A 400-year-old beer style that died out in the 1950s; it was later revived by Pierre Celis at Hoegaarden, and has grown steadily in popularity over time.
> 
> Comments: The presence, character and degree of spicing and lactic sourness varies. Overly spiced and/or sour beers are not good examples of the style. The beer tends to be fragile and does not age well, so younger, fresher, properly handled examples are most desirable.
> 
> Ingredients: About 50% unmalted wheat (traditionally soft white winter wheat) and 50% pale barley malt (usually pils malt) constitute the grist. In some versions, up to 5-10% raw oats may be used. Spices of freshly-ground coriander and Cura̤ao or sometimes sweet orange peel complement the sweet aroma and are quite characteristic. Other spices (e.g., chamomile, cumin, cinnamon, Grains of Paradise) may be used for complexity but are much less prominent. Ale yeast prone to the production of mild, spicy flavors is very characteristic. In some instances a very limited lactic fermentation, or the actual addition of lactic acid, is done.
> Vital Statistics:
> OG FG IBUs SRM ABV
> 1.044 - 1.052 1.008 - 1.012 10 - 20 2 - 4 4.5 - 5.5%
> An ABV of 5% is most typical
> 
> Commercial Examples: Hoegaarden Wit, Vuuve 5, Blanche de Bruges, Blanche de Bruxelles, Brugs Tarwebier, Sterkens White Ale, Celis White (now made in Michigan), Blanche de Brooklyn, Great Lakes Holy Moses, Unibroue Blanche de Chambly, Blue Moon Belgian White


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## KoNG

OK i'll add my take on the great wit, which i just brewed this Monday.
i mentioned in the previous thread, my troubles with finding the flaked wheat, hence the malted wheat, bourghoul and flour. My next attempt will use less malted wheat with the majority being flaked wheat.

this be it....


Brew Type: All Grain 
Date: 20/11/2006 
Style: Witbier 
Brewer: Dowdy 
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Volume: 31.51 L Boil Time: 60 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.0 % 
Equipment: KoNG's Brury 
Actual Efficiency: 0.0 
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2000.00 gm Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.2 EBC) Grain 35.7 % 
2000.00 gm Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 35.7 % 
1000.00 gm Bourghoul (3.5 EBC) Grain 17.9 % 
500.00 gm Plain Flour (5.9 EBC) Grain 8.9 % 
100.00 gm Oats, Malted (2.0 EBC) Grain 1.8 % 
14.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.20%] (60 min) Hops 8.0 IBU 
8.00 gm B Saaz [8.00%] (60 min) Hops 7.7 IBU 
5.00 gm B Saaz [8.00%] (15 min) Hops 1.3 IBU 
5.00 gm Cascade [6.00%] (15 min) Hops 1.0 IBU 
1.00 tbsp Flour (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
14.60 gm Chamomile (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
15.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
15.00 gm Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit II (White Labs #WLP410) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.045 SG (1.044-1.052 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.000 SG 
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.012 SG (1.008-1.012 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.000 SG 
Estimated Color: 6.8 EBC (3.9-7.9 EBC) Color [Color] 
Bitterness: 17.9 IBU (10.0-20.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 1.1 AAU 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.3 % (4.5-5.5 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 0.0 % 
Actual Calories: -4 cal/l 


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Mash Tun Weight: 3000.00 gm 
Mash Grain Weight: 5600.00 gm Mash PH: 5.4 PH 
Grain Temperature: 22.2 C Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C 
Sparge Water: 0.00 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 15.40 L of water at 69.8 C 64.0 C 75 min 
Mash Out Add 10.80 L of water at 98.1 C 77.0 C 10 min 
Sparge Add 13.76 L of water at 86.2 C 80.0 C 40 min


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## warrenlw63

I generally use flaked wheat and next time I'll be tempted to try bourghul and up until now have been happy with previous results.

OTOH last year I was lucky enough to try a version made by Borrett that went the whole hog with raw wheat added to the mash and found the results to be the most authentic thus far.

By all accounts cracking raw wheat is an exercise in patience. Also needs to be treated accordingly in the mash but I still believe the results would be worth it. Unfortunately I'm just too lazy as a brewer to find out. :lol: 

Warren -


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## Steve

Whats Bourghoul Kong (never eard of it)...and when you say 500gms plain flour, is that just plain ole plain flour used in cooking?
Cheers
Steve


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## warrenlw63

Crushed, steamed (precooked) wheat Steve, sometimes also known as Bulgar. Usually used in Middle Eastern dishes such as Tabouleh etc. 

Looks a little bit like brown Polenta and you can just toss it straight into the mash.  

Warren -


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## KoNG

Steve said:


> Whats Bourghoul Kong (never eard of it)...and when you say 500gms plain flour, is that just plain ole plain flour used in cooking?
> Cheers
> Steve



steve,
the back of the pack says: fine ground, pre steamed wheat.
its used for tabouli i thinks.
as for the flour, i probably should have done more research as it was a last minute thing, but i had read previously that many wit brewers swear by the use of "plain ol" flour.. when brewing the style.


Just quitely i'm a little worried now about the bourghul... only because of Warrens above post. Because the last minute idea to use it came from what i thought was a thread quite some time ago... by yound Warren mentioning he uses Bourghul to good effect, although i may have been mistaken.. :blink:

Edit: repeat info.. Warren has a quick draw.!


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## Steve

warrenlw63 said:


> Crushed, steamed (precooked) wheat Steve, sometimes also known as Bulgar. Usually used in Middle Eastern dishes such as Tabouleh etc.
> 
> Looks a little bit like brown Polenta and you can just toss it straight into the mash.
> 
> Warren -




Thanks Warren.....this is one of the reasons I asked Stu to do the wit as the style of the week....Ive never done one because there are it seems so many different ways and ingredients used (most that ive never heard of) to get a wheat beer? And then theres all the different names for wheat beer :huh: . I find it quite a confusing beer to get to grips with. Can you just make a simple one with wheat malt and pils malt?
Cheers
Steve


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## warrenlw63

KoNG said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whats Bourghoul Kong (never eard of it)...and when you say 500gms plain flour, is that just plain ole plain flour used in cooking?
> Cheers
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just quitely i'm a little worried now about the bourghul... only because of Warrens above post. Because the last minute idea to use it came from what i thought was a thread quite some time ago... by yound Warren mentioning he uses Bourghul to good effect, although i may have been mistaken.. :blink:
> 
> Edit: repeat info.. Warren has a quick draw.!
Click to expand...


Relax worry guts. :lol: 

No, I've never used it in a Wit and have stated that before. HOWEVER I've used it as 20% of the grainbill in my last Saison. Single temp mash and the sparge went without a problem. Ran off just as easily as a 100% barley mash.

If you've achieved your projected efficiency and did not get a stuck sparge then you're cooking with a Kong.  

Final flavour will be good too. No fear.  

Warren -


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## tangent

sure you can Steve. great start, but you'll probably find it'll go clear after not too long.
Wits are a type of wheat beer
generally cloudy and IMO more delicious than your standard wheat beer

Warren's right on the money here: "By all accounts cracking raw wheat is an exercise in patience. Also needs to be treated accordingly in the mash but I still believe the results would be worth it."

This is my preferred plan of attack with Wits. I have tried the flour in the boil but it just went lumpy (but i always was sh!t at making gravy)


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## KoNG

tangent said:


> I have tried the flour in the boil but it just went lumpy (but i always was sh!t at making gravy)



i had a similar situation tangent.. but those lumps were beaten out against the side of the kettle.

ps. Thanx Warren, i feel much better.!!  i think i'll just go chase my Kong around the yard..


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## warrenlw63

KoNG said:


> i think i'll just go chase my Kong around the yard..



:lol: Say heloooo to an old friend.






Warren -


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## Stuster

Moving right along, some of the articles mentioned that historically this style was quite sour. Has anybody soured a wit? Seth? Anyone? (I've got some acidulated malt I want to start using up.)


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## tangent

i reused a wit yeast over and over (until it probably got an infection) got some really sour bizarro flavours there. Better idea with the acidulated Stu. I've got some I've been thinking of getting rid of too.


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## bconnery

Stuster said:


> So what are your experiences with this style? Grains? Hops? Which yeast to use? Any dry yeast? What spices/peels to add? What temperature did you do your fermentation at? Can this style be done by partial mashers? Kit based brewers who've won BoS in this style?



I spent some time searching this forum a few weeks back to formulate mine, and now here are all the links in one nice post <_< 

Still, going into the bottle it tasted very nice, I'm planning a side by side tasting with a Hoegaarden. It had a nice slight sharpness so I'm very happy so far...

Being a partial mash mine is definitely darker and I think that is the main drawback to doing this style with a partial mash, it is difficult to get the really pale almost white colour. 

You can, and I did, use raw wheat so there is the potential to produce something reasonably on style with a partial match I think. 

I think T58, fermented warm, would work OK for those wanting to use dry yeast.


Here's mine for what it's worth (can't give the beersmith export with all the lovely info at work...)

400g rolled oats. 200g pilsner. 500g wheat. 950g cracked raw wheat. 500g W DME 500g Dextrose. 1.5kg Coopers W LME. 30g dried wild orange. 30g cracked coriander. 10g Saphir hop pellets. 40g Smaragad hop pellets. WLP550 (I think that's it. It is a more general purpose Belgian liquid yeast, rather than the specific Wit ones. I wanted re-use)

Mashed oats, wheat, cracked wheat and pilsner @50C for 25 minutes. Raised to 65-70 for 70 mins. Sparged. Saphir and 20g @45. LME, DME and Dextrose, 3/4oz coriander, 3/4oz orange peel. 10g Smaragad @ 10. 10g Smaragad @ end. 1/4oz coriander, 1/4oz orange peel @end.


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## KoNG

Stuster said:


> Moving right along, some of the articles mentioned that historically this style was quite sour. Has anybody soured a wit? Seth? Anyone? (I've got some acidulated malt I want to start using up.)



i know Seth has definately done the 'sour mash' Stu...
he's done it all, even a wit fermented with passiona soft drink which i tried.. great stuff
from memory one of his xmas case beers was a sour mash wheat beer (the cheese brew.?)
i think acidulated malt would be the safest way to go tho.. and get repeatable results.
cant wait to get mine in the bottle


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## Stuster

Kong, the cheese beer was one of his first steps on the road to weisse enlightenment I think. I'm not sure I want him in the case exchange if he has used passiona in beer though. :lol: 

I was thinking a small amount of acidulated might be nice (2-3%?), but since I have yet to use it at all, I'm just whistling in the dark. Thanks to Steve my whole brew schedule has to be rearranged  and I'll be doing a wit next week. I was even thinking of going wild and doing a cereal mash/decoction with the raw wheat.

I have some T-58 and I also drank a Forbidden Fruit last night in order to culture up the yeast (oh the inhumanity). I'll split the wort and try both to see the difference.

How did the B Saaz work, Kong? I have some to hand.


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## KoNG

my wort is still in cube.. waiting for my (seth's) white labs wit II to fire up.. taking a while to start.
so i have no idea how its turned out yet.. haha
although i find B saaz kind of citrusy with a little spice so i thought it perfect.??!
i also did some reading on TBN forums and several people had great results with cascade.


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## tangent

amarillo, glacier or crystal would be nice in small amounts


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## KillerRx4

Wow, look at that. Now everyone want to brew a wit :lol: 

I just hope my wit turns out drinkable at this stage


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## Weizguy

Now, Kong, remember what I said about brew temp with that yeast. Brew too warm and you'll get a lot of Belgian-y plumminess and cloves.

Stu, don't rattle my cage about my weird beers. That reminds me that I need to start a Radler.

I have made a soured Wit, last year. A Hard disk crash makes the recipe unavailable, but IIRC I used about 150g of a thick sour mashed wort. Here's a link to my sour mash thread. It may be useful.

That was my first Berlinisch weisse. The second was the "blue cheese" beer, and the third was the bonus beer in the NSW Xmas in July 2006 case (and also NSW State comp winner, etc...). Hey, I learn quick, I suppose.

Some think that the sour mash was too much for the Witbier, and some say that acidulated malt is the go. I'd prob go about 3% acidulated for starters, and then increase/decrease on the next batch to taste. Having said that, I'd prob start at 5% and work my way up, as I prob now have "lactic threshold shift". :lol: 

Will post more later. Need to lauter my Kolnisch bier and collect young Seth-ette from school..

Beerz
S out


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## Stuster

Well, a little digging has resulted in a quote from Wes Smith, here, to the effect that the sourness from acidulated malt definitely will not carry over into the finished beer. However, weyermann themselves say that this malt is perfect for achieving the sour character of beers like Berliner Weisse, here. Anybody care to comment on that? Wes? Seth? Anybody?

Have fun with irrigating your Kolonic, Sethster.


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## redbeard

My last wit had some sour mash added to it. Ill bring a bottle to the ISB croz brewday  its also my small xmas swap contribution.

i just followed a recipe from seth (thanks again). with about 50% pils, 35% raw wheat, 15% malted wheat & some rolled oats. the malted wheat made it up to a 50/50 combo.

i just scooped out about 200gms once cracked & put it into a 6pack esky & added some mash water & let it sit for a day or 2 with the lid on to get the natural souring  

then used hallertou & saaz, corriander & orange peel for the boil. and of course a re-cultured hoe yeast  fermented at about 15' for a week or 2. 

while not really sour, it did have a nice edge / sharpness. hope its still there in 3 or 4 weeks !


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## AndrewQLD

If you use the proper yeast strain, ie White Labs belgian Wit or belgian Wit II or the Wyeast equivalent and a grist of at least 40% raw wheat you will get a very nice tart beer. The yeast gives a mild tartness to the brew but the raw wheat seems to make the sourness stand out. In the past I made my Wits with wheat malt for simplicity and was happy with the results but my last one was with 45% raw malt and it was a beauty.

Cheers
Andrew
Brewer: Andrew Clark
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (47.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 29.95 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 20.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 63.3%
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (1.6Grain 54.5 % 
2.50 kg Wheat - Red Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 45.5 % 
40.00 gm Goldings, U.K [5.00%] (60 min) Hops 20.1 IBU 
25.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
35.00 gm Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat


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## tangent

are you talking briess malted wheat, or plain wheat (from a farmer stage) Andrew?

i'm just looking through some of my sketchy records and i've been averaging 45% malted wheat and then adding ~2-6% raw wheat, the rest of the grist generally being galaxy to help convert everything quickly and easily. Still keep a light colour as well.


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## AndrewQLD

tangent said:


> are you talking briess malted wheat, or plain wheat (from a farmer stage) Andrew?
> 
> i'm just looking through some of my sketchy records and i've been averaging 45% malted wheat and then adding ~2-6% raw wheat, the rest of the grist generally being galaxy to help convert everything quickly and easily. Still keep a light colour as well.



Tangent, I used organic raw (whole) wheat from the health food store mixed and crushed with the pilsner malt. It converted pretty well with the pilsner malt and my last efficiency was around 68%. It was a very pale beer as well.
Don't get me wrong, wheat malt makes a very nice Wit, but the whole wheat gives it a tarter finish.

Cheers
Andrew


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## tangent

couldn't agree more Andrew!

do you use a step mash or pre-gelatinise, or single infuse, or what?
my efficiency craps out a bit when i do wheat beers because i mill a bit coarser.


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## AndrewQLD

I milled mine 3 times and there was a lot of flour  I did a single infusion at 67c but mashed for 90 minutes. After the sparge I tipped the grains out and there was a small amout of gelatinised wheat flour stuck to the bottom of the tun, I now give the mash a good stir two or three times during the rest. I also nowsubstitute 1 kilo of galaxy malt in place of the Pilsner malt to help with the conversion, gives me a 5 point increase in eff.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Stuster

Andrew, how much lower is that efficiency than your normal? What length mash was that?


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## AndrewQLD

Stuster said:


> Andrew, how much lower is that efficiency than your normal? What length mash was that?



90 minute mash and using the galaxy malt the eff was 68%. What I usually get for my wit using wheat malt and joe white pilsner is 70% .

Cheers
Andrew


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## KoNG

AndrewQLD said:


> I milled mine 3 times and there was a lot of flour  I did a single infusion at 67c but mashed for 90 minutes.
> Cheers
> Andrew



all good info Andrew.. thanx
so you didnt give the raw wheat a pre boil of any sorts...?
i thought the norm was to pre heat it for an hour or so at 80*C..!?!?
but if its not needed. all the better.

have you tried flaked wheat..?
i found some at the local co-op, it is quite dark (brown) in colour.. so i was wondering what king of EBC this would contribute.?


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## Thommo

This may be a stupid question so I'll apologise in advance.

Does Raw wheat, torrified wheat, flaked wheat, etc add any "fermentables" to the wort?

Cheers,
Thommo.


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## KoNG

haha.. one rover to another... YES.
the thing being its a little variable..
beersmith has each of them at around 1.035 - 1.036 extract potential.


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## AndrewQLD

KoNG said:


> AndrewQLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I milled mine 3 times and there was a lot of flour  I did a single infusion at 67c but mashed for 90 minutes.
> Cheers
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all good info Andrew.. thanx
> so you didnt give the raw wheat a pre boil of any sorts...?
> i thought the norm was to pre heat it for an hour or so at 80*C..!?!?
> but if its not needed. all the better.
> 
> have you tried flaked wheat..?
> i found some at the local co-op, it is quite dark (brown) in colour.. so i was wondering what king of EBC this would contribute.?
Click to expand...


Wheat will gelatinize between 52 and 64C, so I believe it will convert in the mash without any problems.
Gelatinization temps
Flaked wheat is 1.6 srm or 3.2 EBC .

Cheers
Andrew


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## neonmeate

Stuster said:


> Well, a little digging has resulted in a quote from Wes Smith, here, to the effect that the sourness from acidulated malt definitely will not carry over into the finished beer. However, weyermann themselves say that this malt is perfect for achieving the sour character of beers like Berliner Weisse, here. Anybody care to comment on that? Wes? Seth? Anybody?



this should probably be hashed out in its own thread as it is an interesting one that i've pondered as well. wes seems to be saying that it is purely designed for using in small quantities for buffering high-pH mashes, whereas weyermann say that in excess it will lower the wort pH as well. the question is how much you need to add to get past the buffering effect and leave actual sourness in the beer.

my personal experience with it - i did try using about 9-10% acid malt in a beer i made once that i intended to be kind of a sourmash tripel. it didn't make it sour but it left a weird rotten sort of flavour that was quite overpowering. i have also used too much when pH adjusting in pilseners and it left the same yukky flavour. maybe a better way to add sourness might be to sour the beer itself by throwing in a few grains of acid malt and keeping it warm for a week or two? (you could control it by souring only a couple of litres then pasteurising and adding back in)?


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## tangent

great work, thanks fellas. I've had a lot of little questions answered on a style i love.
To me it's all in the right liquid yeast and the raw wheat, but I'm keen to try the flour again, and won't bother with the acidulated malt.

cheers


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## warrenlw63

Not sure if it was pure coincidence but my best Witbier was made with Galaxy malt, certainly gave the palest finish I've ever seen. Oh, yeast was Wyeast 3522 Belg. Ardennes too. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## KoNG

ok... after making a second trip to the local Co-Op, i have decided to brew another wit, back to back and dump on the yeast cake.
I've made a few changes to the grist, so it will be good to tatse the differences.

A - Wit: 35% pils, 35% wheat malt, 18% Bourghul, 10% flour, 2% oats

B - Wit: 39% pils, 39% flaked wheat, 20% wheat malt, 2% oats


bit of a gripe regarding the wheat flakes.. the price..!
last brew i could only find bourghul which was expensive... i've now find cheaper bourghul at the co-op (less than half the price), but the bloody flaked wheat was $7/kg  . the steaming/flaking must be an expensive process (smells and looks like a kellogs product.!), i noted they had organic raw wheat there which was very cheap.. will give that a go next time  
is that the normal price people are paying for their wheat flakes.?

cant wait to pour the first one into my 500ml Hoegaarden vessel...


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## berapnopod

My experience with making sour wits is that the sourness comes from a secondary fermentation (probably lactobacillus). Because theres a significant portion of starches left in the beer - ie. flour - these are available for bugs to much on.

Of course, it was unintentional.

I found that this way the beer would improve up to about 3 months, as the sourness developed. After that the sourness got too overpowering. Anyone have an idea of how sour a wit should be? My hazy (no pun intended) recollection is that it is a very light sourness, nowhere near what you would have for a lambic or Berliner weisse.

Berp.


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## KoNG

what a disaster.
i had my first ever aborted mission on saturday after some 30 AG's... my first ever dumped mash <_< 

WARNING.... when at your local hippy co-op: wheat "flakes" are *not* the same "flaked" wheat.

i didnt just have a slow sparge or an annoying sparge, i had a complete stuck from the get go. I did not lauter ONE drop, even if i stirred with the ball valve wide open, the braid would not let anything through, huge amounts of rice hulls didnt help.... So i ran up the road and grabbed T.D's MLT which uses a false bottom, thinking that would help or atleast make a difference. Nothing! not a drop.
Now i'm getting annoyed.
so i decide to let the mash settle for 30 minutes and then gently scoop everything off the top (leaving the mess in the bottom??) and back into my MLT, this took quite some time. NOTHING.

So i dumped it. with the knowledge that "wheat flakes" create concrete in 65*C water :excl: 

yesterday, i brewed it again... but with some raw wheat grain i had found.
all went well, looked and smelt great.. although i missed my OG by 5 points (to be expected i guess).

happy again.


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## tangent

i know how you feel Kong.
2 brews ago, nothing would come out of the mash tun, so i had to pour the whole lot through a hop sock (now i know why i've got the jumbo). That was using rice hulls and a coarser grind.

I'm thinking of using about 13% raw and 39% malted wheat in my next Wit. The rest pilsner and a little vienna.


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## KoNG

tangent said:


> I'm thinking of using about 13% raw and 39% malted wheat in my next Wit. The rest pilsner and a little vienna.



i ended up going 40% pils , 40% raw wheat , 20% wheat malt
i put the raw wheat through the mill twice and then again with the pils
didnt need any rice hulls and it stil resulted in a really quick effortless sparge.
i think i will need to crush the raw wheat a bit more for my next attempt, just to try and get the effeciency up a little more.


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## neonmeate

did a wit today with "cracked wheat" from the healthfood aisle which looks exactly like bourgal but doesn't say anything about being cooked. anyway the sparge was just about the fastest of any beer ever - did a mash of 52C 30 mins
64C 60 mins
mashout 78C half an hour

then it came cascading out. and that was with 60% wheat!

looking fwd to the beer - ardennes yeast, with 10g chai spice mix, 20g chinese-shop peel, 25g indian coriander


----------



## tangent

This is a roughty of my Xmas Wit. I used to like necking a few early Hoegaardens on Chrissy so I thought I'd open a few longnecks instead 
If i don't brew it soon, it'll be my new-years Wit.


Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	When
German Wheat Malt 3.00 kg 38.7 % In Mash/Steeped
German Pilsner Malt 2.50 kg 32.3 % In Mash/Steeped
German Vienna Malt 1.25 kg 16.1 % In Mash/Steeped
SA Wheat 1.00 kg 12.9 % In Mash/Steeped

Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	Form	When
Glacier 5.0 20 g First Wort Hopped
Amarillo 8.4 20 g First Wort Hopped

Other Ingredients
Ingredient	Amount	When
Coriander Seed 20 g In Mash
Coriander Seed 20 g In Boil
Orange Peel, Sweet 18 g In Boil

Yeast
Wyeast 3944-Belgian Witbier

EDIT - if you're single infusing, what temp do you aim for?


----------



## DarkFaerytale

i came in 4th of 22 entries in this years VICBREW with Grumpy's Belgian Witbier  i compared it to a Hoegaarden and the flavour was very similar more coriander flavour in grumpy's recipe and was a darker color all the reviews i got back said it could do with more wheat malt next go around i'll be doing an all grain version which i think will deffinatly bring out the wheat flavour alot more than the tinned goo did, so far this is the best brew i'v made IMO

Edit: forgot to add a few things, mashed at 65C for 90 mins, i used marmalaide instead of orange peel, wyeast 3944 and i brewed it high at 24-25C intentionally to see what flavour i'd get out of the yeast

-Phill


----------



## KoNG

neonmeate said:


> then it came cascading out. and that was with 60% wheat!
> 
> looking fwd to the beer - ardennes yeast, with 10g chai spice mix, 20g chinese-shop peel, 25g indian coriander



Same!! my sparge would have been the fastest ive had ever.  
that said... i think i could have milled my raw wheat finer, which would have helped my effeciency.
but instead i think i'll just keep my effeciency set a bit lower, mill the same and just use an extra 250g of raw wheat. The super sparge is worth paying an extra 50c. B) 


where did you source the "indian" corriander? my local hippy shack only had what looked like the standard round seed.


----------



## warrenlw63

neonmeate said:


> looking fwd to the beer - ardennes yeast, with 10g chai spice mix, 20g chinese-shop peel, 25g indian coriander



Should be a good one NM. Did my best ever Wit with Ardennes. What an all-rounder. :beerbang: 

Are you dropping something bigger on the cake?

Warren -


----------



## Josh

AndrewQLD said:


> If you use the proper yeast strain, ie White Labs belgian Wit or belgian Wit II or the Wyeast equivalent and a grist of at least 40% raw wheat you will get a very nice tart beer. The yeast gives a mild tartness to the brew but the raw wheat seems to make the sourness stand out. In the past I made my Wits with wheat malt for simplicity and was happy with the results but my last one was with 45% raw malt and it was a beauty.



Does this go for torrified wheat too? I am drinking my small case swap wit at the moment which was brewed with alsmost half pilsener malt and torrified wheat with a little oats. Fermented with the White labs Belgian Wit yeast. It has a nice tartness to it. I used less coriander and orange than most people have indicated in this and other threads. 

I think that has let the tartness from the torrified wheat and the yeast come through more than overpowering the flavour with coriander as I did with my first couple of wits.

Does this sound right? Only my third or fourth wit.


----------



## DarkFaerytale

i noticed alot of people use oats in there wits, what does this add?

-Phill


----------



## AndrewQLD

Josh said:


> AndrewQLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you use the proper yeast strain, ie White Labs belgian Wit or belgian Wit II or the Wyeast equivalent and a grist of at least 40% raw wheat you will get a very nice tart beer. The yeast gives a mild tartness to the brew but the raw wheat seems to make the sourness stand out. In the past I made my Wits with wheat malt for simplicity and was happy with the results but my last one was with 45% raw malt and it was a beauty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this go for torrified wheat too? I am drinking my small case swap wit at the moment which was brewed with alsmost half pilsener malt and torrified wheat with a little oats. Fermented with the White labs Belgian Wit yeast. It has a nice tartness to it. I used less coriander and orange than most people have indicated in this and other threads.
> 
> I think that has let the tartness from the torrified wheat and the yeast come through more than overpowering the flavour with coriander as I did with my first couple of wits.
> 
> Does this sound right? Only my third or fourth wit.
Click to expand...


I have never tried Torrified wheat Josh so I can't answer your question sorry  but if you can taste the tartness then your spot on, and the corriander can overpower the wit at times, but it also gives the beer a nice dryness as well. I bet the others in your case swap will enjoy your beer.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## neonmeate

warrenlw63 said:


> Are you dropping something bigger on the cake?
> 
> Warren -



yeah i will be doing a la chouffe clone based on a recipe i found on babblebelt

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread....tpg=1&add=1

caraway should be interesting.


KonGG, indian coriander is available at coles in the asian food section - "maharajah's choice" brand. you can also get it at herbie's, but it's like 9 times the price. i like indian coriander better, it's a bit sweeter and less rough than normal coriander.
not that it's "better", just a slightly different spice. i think normal coriander is better in curries where you want more pungency. also my homemade hommus works better with normal coriander.


----------



## Stuster

Surprisingly, Indian coriander is also available in Indian grocery stores. 100g for $1 in Ashfield.


----------



## Weizguy

DarkFaerytale said:


> i noticed alot of people use oats in there wits, what does this add?
> 
> -Phill


G'day,

If I may answer this one...
The oats (usually rolled oats, as steel-cut oats need a cereal mash IIRC) add the same as they would in any other beer (say, Stout or Baltic Porter, perhaps). That' s a silky or velvety mouthfeel and a bit of body. It makes your upper palate feel slippery on the tongue, or vice versa.

I hope that's helpful to you.

I assume that the oats help balance the mostly dry and tart flavours of the Wit, caused by low mash temp/thin body.

Seth


----------



## DarkFaerytale

cheers seth


----------



## warrenlw63

neonmeate said:


> caraway should be interesting.



Interesting would be an understatement. :blink: 

Go easy with that stuff. The flavour is anything but subtle. h34r: 

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

Stuster said:


> Surprisingly, Indian coriander is also available in Indian grocery stores. 100g for $1 in Ashfield.



UN-surprisingly... Manly doesnt have one of those...  
(i'll have to get you to post me some, next wit. Thanx stuster...  )

KoNG


----------



## Stuster

Well that's what you get for living in that kind of suburb, isn't it now. :lol: 

Next AHB pub crawl perhaps. :unsure: 

Oh and just to make you even more jealous of the "Glorious Inner West", I got raw wheat for $1.40/kg. Go west, young man, go west.


----------



## warrenlw63

Hey Kong

Does Manly have "anything" besides pubs, beaches and chicks with big norks? :lol: 

Oh hang on! What's not to like.  

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

answers:

stuster... i only payed $1.86/kg for my raw wheat, so i'm alright there (the beach and tits far out weigh the 46c/kg)

Warren... YES, we have Tom Williams, Holly Brisley and Guy Leech haha. enough said. (oh and the Manly Marlins)


----------



## tangent

> I assume that the oats help balance the mostly dry and tart flavours of the Wit, caused by low mash temp/thin body.



So generally a low temp then for an easier drinker?


----------



## roach

For those in Adelaide they sell hard white wheat(their good quality wheat) at Gilbertson's Fodder store in Gepps Cross - 40kg for $21. I went for the 10kg for $9.50! 

Will be brewing my first wit tomorrow


----------



## KoNG

my A-wit has been in primary for 7 days now and is still bubbling away every 4 seconds, so as people have mentioned WLP410 Wit II (and probably the the others) is a slow constant worker. I've let the temp come up a little now (low 20's), as i think it has another 6 points or so to go (its @ 1.016). Tasting good, if a little sweet.


----------



## jayse

roach said:


> For those in Adelaide they sell hard white wheat(their good quality wheat) at Gilbertson's Fodder store in Gepps Cross - 40kg for $21. I went for the 10kg for $9.50!
> 
> Will be brewing my first wit tomorrow



It must be a case of great northern adelaide minds think alike here as I'am doing a wit tomorow aswell. :super: 
Long overdue brew for me and its been a piss poor year for me brew wise with only a few brews down.

Anyway thanks for the tip on the fodder I'll have to go get some in the morning as I did have the wheat to do the brew from almost 12 months ago but it seems the mice have had a little party in it. I think its meant to be tart but I don't think mouse piss is the kind of tartness we're after. <_< 

Whats the go with peel what did you end up getting there and were from?


To stuster this thread is going great so far and seems to have sparked some interest being the perfect time of year. To anyone reading the thread and interested don't forget to read the links posted in the first post.


One point i'll add about the wits I judged at anawbs this years was there were at least 50% of the wits in there which the orange peel was overdone. Not only that but the peel was a sweet orange juice flavour type and very overpowering and to me I think the wit charater should be dominated by the yeast and raw wheat with the spices and what not being as balanced as possible.

Anyway I'll be loading up the tun to do a 50 litre batch tomorow to get some much needed beer supply on.

Blanche de skunkfartingtonsworth.
Jayse


----------



## KoNG

jayse said:


> Long overdue brew for me and its been a piss poor year for me brew wise with only a few brews down.



geez jayse, you have been quiet... but "a few" sounds drastic, hope you can remove the rut in the new year... :beerbang: 

This thread was perfectly timed by Stuster i brewed my Wit just a few days before he posted.
but i would say the thread sparked me to brew back to back wits for the festive season.

i reduced most of the late additions (corriander and orange peel) and kept the bittering fairly low in both brews... but i think it is a fine line to get it right each brew.

Fresh chamomile made it into my second brew, i hope it doesnt dominate, but sit in the background.

Cant wait to see the faces of family over the festive season as they take that first tart sip. :lol:


----------



## Stuster

Good to hear it, jayse. You've been a bit quiet lately. Good info on the orange peel. :super:


----------



## GMK

All this talk of wit beer has inspired me to brew another one.

Will be brewing on 9Dec up at the BrewInn

will be making a Beer Captured Hoegaarten Recipe


----------



## Weizguy

tangent said:


> I assume that the oats help balance the mostly dry and tart flavours of the Wit, caused by low mash temp/thin body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So generally a low temp then for an easier drinker?
Click to expand...


 They left this for me to answer, Tangent.

Yep, mash low for an easy drinker, with little body. A dry Saison can prob go as low as 62-63C, Wits at 65ish, whereas a Baltic porter can mash at 70 C, for an almost gluggy beer.

Dryer guzzling beers may benefit from a multi-step mash, with an acid rest at 40C, protein rest at around 50C and a saccarification rest at about 64-65C. Many variations exist, and you should first try what other brewers say works for their version.

Beerz
Seth


----------



## warrenlw63

jayse said:


> One point i'll add about the wits I judged at anawbs this years was there were at least 50% of the wits in there which the orange peel was overdone. Not only that but the peel was a sweet orange juice flavour type and very overpowering and to me I think the wit charater should be dominated by the yeast and raw wheat with the spices and what not being as balanced as possible.



Hey Jayse. My money's more on that flavour being from excessive corriander. To me it's where the majority of the citrusy character seems to derive from. Not that keen on corriander overload personally. :blink: 

Warren -


----------



## tangent

thanks weizguy

regarding the coriander and orange - my measurements up the top are guideline only (for me) usually when it comes to measuring it out i'll stop at, say 10grams, and say "oh sh!t, that's more than enough"
definitely agree that both can be overdone easily
i've actually still got a heap of fresh coriander in the garden going to seed and i'm thinking about dry hopping with some.


----------



## KoNG

my standard has been the peel of one orange or madarin and 15g of corriander seed. The seed i just purchased from the hippies in manly is much more potent than the packet of seed i got from the yupies in mosman.


----------



## neonmeate

you have hippies in manly?


----------



## warrenlw63

Hippies is Manly. Yuppies in Mosman. Puppies in Penrith. Skippies in Lakemba... No! Hang on a minute.  

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

neonmeate said:


> you have hippies in manly?



my post wasnt meant to derail the thread... BUT, yes we do have hippies, they even make you do all the work in their shop (being a co-op :blink: ), i had to open sacks of grain, transfer to buckets, fill my own bags, weigh the product.... all, while the hippy was sending an sms up at the counter!! (so maybe "faux" hippies)


----------



## andrewg

Josh said:


> Does this go for torrified wheat too? I am drinking my small case swap wit at the moment which was brewed with alsmost half pilsener malt and torrified wheat with a little oats. Fermented with the White labs Belgian Wit yeast. It has a nice tartness to it. I used less coriander and orange than most people have indicated in this and other threads.
> 
> I think that has let the tartness from the torrified wheat and the yeast come through more than overpowering the flavour with coriander as I did with my first couple of wits.
> 
> Does this sound right? Only my third or fourth wit.



Hey Josh & others
So how much coriander & orange do you use? Also what type of coriander (eg Indian) & orange (eg bitter)?
Also how much do you grind the spices up - I read somewhere that the more finely ground the spices, the stronger the flavour.
I have found that getting the right balance of spices is one of the many challenges of brewing a good wit.
cheers
HStB


----------



## Josh

HaigStBrewery said:


> Josh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does this go for torrified wheat too? I am drinking my small case swap wit at the moment which was brewed with alsmost half pilsener malt and torrified wheat with a little oats. Fermented with the White labs Belgian Wit yeast. It has a nice tartness to it. I used less coriander and orange than most people have indicated in this and other threads.
> 
> I think that has let the tartness from the torrified wheat and the yeast come through more than overpowering the flavour with coriander as I did with my first couple of wits.
> 
> Does this sound right? Only my third or fourth wit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Josh & others
> So how much coriander & orange do you use? Also what type of coriander (eg Indian) & orange (eg bitter)?
> Also how much do you grind the spices up - I read somewhere that the more finely ground the spices, the stronger the flavour.
> I have found that getting the right balance of spices is one of the many challenges of brewing a good wit.
> cheers
> HStB
Click to expand...

My last wit used 10g Saaz, 10g Coriander seed from the supermarket crushed up with a mortar and pestle, 35g dried orange peel from the local chinese grocer (I'm guessing it's bitter orange?) all added at 10 minutes. Then Saaz for bittering hops to 14IBU.

2.35kg Pilsener malt
2.45kg Torrified wheat
220g Rolled oats
mashed at 65C 45mins, 72C 15mins

Slightly lower efficiency, dextrose added to 1.050 OG
WLP400 Belgian Wit Ale yeast


----------



## KoNG

HaigStBrewery said:


> I have found that getting the right balance of spices is one of the many challenges of brewing a good wit.
> cheers
> HStB



Exactly, and i think that is the point HStB,
Unlike malts and hops where you are well equiped to know the results you will get from each addition (i.e effeciency from the malt or IBU's etc) you just dont know what to expect from your spice additions from brew to brew, unless you get your spice in bulk for the next few attempts. The few times i've bought corriander i have noticed vast differences in the aroma as soon as i crush it.  
Even though its not totally to 'hoegaarden' style so to speak, i have been aiming at reducing the spice additions so they are there but not too dominant and using hops to get some of the flavour-aroma (only small amounts obviously).. the yanks on TBN have had success with a little cascade for citrus.

So i guess everyones amounts added late in the boil is going to differ greatly because of the variation in the product.


----------



## neonmeate

i think the key is not so much how much of each spice you use but what proportions. eg grains of paradise can be overwhelming but if you put them in with some coriander you soften the impact. or star anise can be horrible but combined with ginger and pepper it's totally different. different spices can mask eachother, or blend to create superspices.
it also depends on what yeast you use and what sort of esters you're going to get as to how much room there is for the spice flavour.
i like to try minute amounts of each blend sprinkled and stirred on a glass of whatever beer is on hand (could be commercial beer). then scale it up.

and if you overspice a batch, leave it for 6 months - a year to fade a bit (obviously only with the higher grav belgians)


----------



## KoNG

Neonmeate...
have you tried the likes of star anise, ginger, G's of P.... etc etc
how di that work in a WIT...?


----------



## tangent

i'm wonedring if dry hopping with fresh coriander might give a nice light aroma without the pepperyness of the crushed seed.
Anyone tried it?


----------



## KoNG

i was actually thinking the same thing Tangent, i'm probably ready to bottle tomorrow night (being a wit, no secondary), so i thought i might crush some corriander into the bottling bucket with the dex, let it rest for 20 minutes, then bottle.
(it will involve a trip back to the hippy shop though, which may be the deciding factor)


----------



## neonmeate

KoNG said:


> Neonmeate...
> have you tried the likes of star anise, ginger, G's of P.... etc etc
> how di that work in a WIT...?



yes sorry i was crapping on a bit there got off the subject of the thread.

2 years ago i made a very weird witbier where i just added GOP and pepper - yechh. tasted like sucking on a 2B pencil. it put me off brewing witbiers until right now.on the other hand GOP has worked very well for me (in other belgian styles) mixed in with coriander and other softer spices so that is why i say blending the spices together makes the difference rather than how much of each spice you add individually.

current wit has: coriander, peel, plus cardamom, ginger, star anise, pepper, aniseed, cinnamon (chai mix). tasting pre-bottling, sharp spices balance with the sweet spices. you can't pick out any of the individual spices but you sure know there's spice in there.

also got to give thumbs up to 3522 like warren - goes like a rocket, sets like concrete. and tastes very nice.


----------



## neonmeate

tangent said:


> i'm wonedring if dry hopping with fresh coriander might give a nice light aroma without the pepperyness of the crushed seed.
> Anyone tried it?



you mean the leaf?


----------



## KoNG

ok my raw wheat wit should be ready to be bottled over the weekend.
I'm planning on botling 15 Litres and racking the other 10 litres onto a few hundred grams of raspberries, should be a great beer for the champagne girls over christmas.

Another thing is the chamomile, when i transfered the no-chill to the ferm for pitching, the chamomile aroma coming from the cube was quite intense, but great. will be good to see how it lasts through fermentation. i used 15g of the real stuff in this one as compared to the crap from some teabags for the previous brew.


----------



## tangent

yeah neonmeate, just a bunch of fresh coriander leaves, no seed.
when i pick it, the smell on my hands is awesome, and that seems to be closer to the fresh Hoegaarden smell than the seed smell.


----------



## KoNG

they definately use crushed seed, ive seen the 'thirsty traveller' tip them in the hoegaarden kettle...


----------



## tangent

is that all they added other than peel?


----------



## warrenlw63

Tangent

Michael Jackson has alluded to them using Cumin (supposed secret ingredient). I've tried some myself in a wit before. Not without it's merits.  

Warren -


----------



## Weizguy

tangent said:


> yeah neonmeate, just a bunch of fresh coriander leaves, no seed.
> when i pick it, the smell on my hands is awesome, and that seems to be closer to the fresh Hoegaarden smell than the seed smell.


Fresh leaves contain a lot of chlorophyll and other pigments. Your beer can turn out green or brown, or green/brown and have a lot a vegetal flavours.

By all means try it, but you'll prob only do it once.

Seth


----------



## KoNG

tangent said:


> is that all they added other than peel?



thats all they show you.. :angry: :lol: 
but the secret spice as warren suggests is said to be either cumin or maybe chamomile
who knows..... <_<


----------



## warrenlw63

When in doubt use a little bit of both.  

Nothing wrong with {ahem} cumin in your wit. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## tangent

i have some cuacao liqueur, it's probably closer to curacao peel than sweet orange peel.
methinks it's time to split batches and experiment.


----------



## Stuster

Having had a monkey on my back about it, I've finally got round to posting my witbier experiences. I made a witbier two weeks ago using raw wheat. I decided on this after reading the witbier section in Radical Brewing. I milled the raw wheat grains.

3.75kg JW Export Pilsner
3.25kg Unmalted wheat
400g Oats
100g Weyermann Acidulated malt	

For my sins, I did a cereal mash, using a 20L pot on the kitchen stove. Mashed in the raw wheat, the oats and 1kg of the pilsner at 50C. Rest for 20. Heat to 65C. Rest for 20. Boil for 20. Combine with main mash (2.725kg) already at 40C for sacc rest of 67C. (Had to add a couple of litres of cold water to get the temp right). Rest for 1 hour. Then drain, sparge etc. One difficulty with doing a cereal mash is that it tends to spit when it's up to boiling. You need to stir so get some protection. I sat the lid half on and sheltered behind it, stirring with a long spoon while wearing pink washing up gloves.  

25g B Saaz (6.7%) @ 60
13g Styrian Goldings (4.6% plugs) @ 15
13g Styrian [email protected] 5
15g Coriander seeds & 1 Orange rind & 5g Chamomile @ 5	

OG 1052
IBU 14.8
EBC 6.6

I think the cereal mash helped with efficiency as I ended up with exactly the same efficiency as I normally get. Split the batch, 18L with T-58 dry yeast (thanks MHB) and 12L with some yeast cultured from a bottle of Forbidden Fruit. The FF yeast was not too well it seems and I've had to chuck that 12L. :angry: Still have 18L though to hopefully bottle tonight.  

I'm not sure if I'd bother with it again, but good to have tried something different. Will post back with some tasting notes in a few weeks. (This post is not a challenge to your post-length prowess, PP.)


----------



## tangent

> Fresh leaves contain a lot of chlorophyll and other pigments. Your beer can turn out green or brown, or green/brown and have a lot a vegetal flavours.


 Like fresh hops?  

I brewed a wit differently on NYE.
I used 2kg of raw wheat, so I did a cereal mash with just the wheat and oats and 200gm of Galaxy to start conversion. Did a stepped infusion with it 45-55-65, then used this to dough in with the malted wheat and pils malt.
Then step mashed 45-55-65. Got excellent conversion and a really easy sparge (although i did use ~200gms of rice gulls as well)
I'm a bit worried that my starch conversion was too good though as the runnings were very clear. Hopefully the yeast will add some haze.

Smelling great, just waiting for the 3944 to kick off. (underpitched)


----------



## BoilerBoy

G'day tangent,

Seems like alot of work for a wheat beer, (quickly grabs vomit bucket) :lol: h34r: 

Happy new year and good luck with your wheat thing.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## tangent

great wheat beers are exceptional. ordinary ones are terrible. 
I reckon it's worth the effort. heaps less effort than Dr.Gonzo's multiple decoctions


----------



## Steve

Going to try my first wheat on Saturday. How does this sound?:

Wheat Beer 20 IBUs

2.5kg Pilsener malt
2.5kg Wheat malt
250gms Carapils
250gms Rolled unmalted wheat
20gms crushed coriander seeds
20gms dried orange peel (curacao) or small jar bitter marmalade

Hallertaur Mittlefruh @ 60 mins to 20 ibus
15gms Saaz @ 15 mins
Whirlfloc @ 15 mins
Coriander @ 15 mins
Orange @ 15 mins

1 x K97 dry yeast

Cheers
Steve


----------



## tangent

keep a K97 or T58 (better) handy, but try like all hell to get a Belgian liquid yeast activated and ready to pitch by your brew day. It really does make a mile of difference.


----------



## tangent

i had to pitch a spare T-58 (i thought that was a soviet WW2 tank?) after my 3944 Belgian Wit failed to take off.
Got going pretty quickly and blew the top off the airlock (2-piece)


----------



## Duff

tangent said:


>




:lol: 

Isn't it amazing what you can find on YouTube now.


----------



## Steve

Cheers Tangent - I couldnt decide between K97 and T58 because every other K97 has been dodgy and T58 is said to be spicy/clovey. I'll go the T58.
Steve


----------



## tangent

> Isn't it amazing what you can find on YouTube now.


  especially if you record it with your phone and upload it 

I'd much rather the 3944 any day...if the fu<ker would bloody start!!! <_< :angry: I like the spice of T-58, it overlaps the coriander.

edit - I've also found 3g of coriander in the mash and 5g at 5mins to be more than enough. I'll drop it back to 3g and 3g.


----------



## facter

Okay partial mashers, I think I've stumbled on a winner! Just finished yesterday and I took a taste of it today, I reckon these things are great kegged right out of the fermenter and really fresh, certainly tastes damn fine, and I reckon better than a hoey hahaha. I formulated this from hints from a previous recipe, hints from this thread and my newly acquired Radical Brewing book 





*Witetch Belgium White*


Batch Size (L): 23.00
OG: 1.052 
IBU: 18.7
SRM: 5.1



Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name 
----------------------------------------
9.8 0.50 kg. Rolled Wheat 
35.3 1.80 kg. Pale Malt(2-row) 
5.9 0.30 kg. Flaked Oats 
13.7 0.70 kg. Wheat Malt 
5.9 0.30 kg. Flaked Triticale 
29.4 1.50 kg. Coopers LME - Wheat 




Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.00 g. Smaragd Pellet 8.00 7.8 60 min.
8.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 3.10 3.4 60 min.
6.00 g. Perle Pellet 9.00 7.5 60 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.00 gm Chamomille Herb 5 minutes
18.00 gm Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min
 4.00 gm Juniper Berries Other 5 minutes 
Zest 1 mandarine peel and two orange peels, oven dried 5 minutes
Half a teaspoon cumin


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3463 Forbidden Fruit


----------



## tangent

well my brew is almost down to FG and the ferment was that quick once i'd introduced the T58, that the fridge was set at 16C and it still brewed out in about 2 & 1/2 days getting up to about ~23-24C (according to the stick on thermometer)

unfortunately the change in yeast has resulted in almost no fruit and just spice.

i'm thinking of throwing in a few shots of curacao style liqueur and a clove in, but i'm buggered if i can think of a way to add banana and bubblegum...?


----------



## Tony

a couple of those bananna lollies and 2 pieces of pre-chewed hubba bubba 

hehehe

cheers

Hey tangent..... would the T-58 be any good for a belgian pale ale?


----------



## tangent

something mild, yeah why not Tony?


----------



## Tony

well i have some in the fridge and i want to start my belgian exploration at the start.

Im not a fan of witbier so a pale ale it is.

Sorry for the hijac people.

on with the topic 

cheers


----------



## Steve

why does the orange peel have to be dried?


----------



## tangent

i don't think it does, i've used fresh mandarin peel before. some people find dried easier to come across in asian grocers than fresh.


----------



## Steve

tangent said:


> i don't think it does, i've used fresh mandarin peel before. some people find dried easier to come across in asian grocers than fresh.




Thanks Tangent, just wanted to make sure. Ive got two oranges as I couldnt find any bitter marmalade or dried peel. I'll just use them as is - without the white pithy stuff that is. Looking forward to this one. :beer: 
Cheers
Steve


----------



## DarkFaerytale

placed an order over the weekend for a wit but not thinking properly i also placed and order for a california common, would i still be able to get banana flavour from forbidden fruit yeast at 18C (can be brewed as low as 17 according to wyeast website) if i under pitched it?

-Phill


----------



## tangent

FF yeast is supposed to be an acceptable substitute.


----------



## DarkFaerytale

i understand that, looking forward to brewing with it, but worried about not getting enough banana flavour from a lower temp than i'd rather be brewing the wit at as the grains are pre-crushed and i can only brew them together in the same fridge (should have probably explained that in my earlier post)


----------



## tangent

you should get some banana but a few extra C would pump out more.


----------



## Stuster

You could start it in the fridge and then after a day or two take it out and let it slowly warm up to ambient. That yeast should be fine with pretty high temps. You could cover it in a wet towel if you want, but other brewers have recommended using this above 24C so it should be fine without.

"If you love it, let it go."


----------



## DarkFaerytale

cheers tangent and stuster, if the weather is not to bad next week i'll try brewing outside the fridge. moving the brewery to the old mans garage this week and worried about temp fluctuations. as long as i get some banana i'll be happy 

-Phill


----------



## Snow

Hey guys I just did a wit on the weekend using Wyeast 3944. I threw in a few spices, including coriender, orange peel and cumin. What are people's recommendations for conditioning a wit? Do you cold condition for a couple of weeks, condition at room temp for a while to let the flavour of spices blend more with the beer, sit it in primary for 2 weeks and the just keg/bottle? My gut feel is to rack to secondary after a week, then condition at room temp for 2 weeks before kegging. whaddayarekun?

Cheers - Snow.

ps - oh yeah, I used 500g of plain flour in the mash, too. Did a rest at 50c but still had big sparging problems. Anyone have any tips on mashing with flour?


----------



## KoNG

DarkFaerytale said:


> placed an order over the weekend for a wit but not thinking properly i also placed and order for a california common, would i still be able to get banana flavour from forbidden fruit yeast at 18C (can be brewed as low as 17 according to wyeast website) if i under pitched it?
> 
> -Phill



Phill, if you are looking for banana type flavours you might be better off looking at a german wheat yeast. just a thought



Snow said:


> Hey guys I just did a wit on the weekend using Wyeast 3944. I threw in a few spices, including coriender, orange peel and cumin. What are people's recommendations for conditioning a wit? Do you cold condition for a couple of weeks, condition at room temp for a while to let the flavour of spices blend more with the beer, sit it in primary for 2 weeks and the just keg/bottle? My gut feel is to rack to secondary after a week, then condition at room temp for 2 weeks before kegging. whaddayarekun?
> 
> Cheers - Snow.
> 
> ps - oh yeah, I used 500g of plain flour in the mash, too. Did a rest at 50c but still had big sparging problems. Anyone have any tips on mashing with flour?



Snow,
Ive used flour and didnt really have a problem when batch sparging, i used half a fist of rice hulls just incase, but just added the flour after the main grist dough in.
as for getting it into the keg.. i would get primary fermentation complete and get it straight in there. Great style to drink fresh with a little yeast for nutrients/flavour


----------



## Weizguy

Steve, the orange peel need not be dried. I routinely peel with a potato peeler and add direct into the boil (or in a muslin bag).

Phil, I don't think that you should be looking for banana in a Witbier. That's Weizen territory. Maybe you should check the forum for weizen threads.
Seriously, I don't think I could stomach a phenolic/orange/coriander/banana brew.

Seth out


----------



## DarkFaerytale

don't you hate it when you type out a big post then you loose it by pressing the wrong button

anyway i'll keep it short, doing a hefeweizen next then a dunkelweizen, was ment to do the hefe this time around but plans tend to change alot when your a brewer 

-Phill


----------



## Snow

KoNG said:


> Phill, if you are looking for banana type flavours you might be better off looking at a german wheat yeast. just a thought
> Snow,
> Ive used flour and didnt really have a problem when batch sparging, i used half a fist of rice hulls just incase, but just added the flour after the main grist dough in.
> as for getting it into the keg.. i would get primary fermentation complete and get it straight in there. Great style to drink fresh with a little yeast for nutrients/flavour


Thanks Kong. I blended the flour with the grist before adding to the mash tun, so maybe that's where I went wrong....

Cheers - Snow


----------



## tangent

Check this out. I finally found dried orange peel in the local Asian grocery store.
Looking at the label closely, it seems to be some natural remedy for an unset guts.
Unfortunately it seems to be covered with saccharine and my guess would be citric acid.
Tastes bloody aweful!
Lucky i tried it before i was tempted to use it!


----------



## warrenlw63

tangent said:


> Check this out. I finally found dried orange peel in the local Asian grocery store.
> Looking at the label closely, it seems to be some natural remedy for an unset guts.
> Unfortunately it seems to be covered with saccharine and my guess would be citric acid.
> Tastes bloody aweful!
> Lucky i tried it before i was tempted to use it!
> View attachment 11742



Kum Kok brand? :blink: Did the peel have a pronounced pork flavour? :lol: 

Edit: Don't they make oyster sauce too?

Warren -


----------



## tangent

i think they did the cream of sumyunguy 

Thanks for the reminder about Grain & Grape Warren.


----------



## tangent

speaking of G&G, anyone know how long it was since their last 20% off sale and how often they do it?
Papa needs a pump and orange peel


----------



## therook

I'm with you Tangent, time for another 20% sale.....do any of the G&G blokes post here

Rook


----------



## braufrau

How to dry orange peel 

An another one

The real question is, can I get a curacao plant somewhere? 
Hmm. Looks like its used as a root stock. So might be easy to get.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_orange

What about seeds of paradise? That's toughy too. Herbies


----------



## DarkFaerytale

tell us how you go getting the plant if you decide to braufrau, love growing things and if they can go into my beers there even better! 

-Phill


----------



## braufrau

DarkFaerytale said:


> tell us how you go getting the plant if you decide to braufrau, love growing things and if they can go into my beers there even better!
> 
> -Phill




I plan to see if I can get one from the rare fruit growers in spring when they do
their citrus budding. I'll let you know what I discover.


----------



## DarkFaerytale

cheers braufrau :beerbang: 

-Phill


----------



## winkle

tangent said:


> i think they did the cream of sumyunguy
> 
> Thanks for the reminder about Grain & Grape Warren.


Didn't some one suggest cumin in wit?


----------



## tangent

added dried mandarine and coriander to the mash and only a very small amount (maybe, i can't really remember) to the flame out.
keep you posted on the results


----------



## facter

... im about to make another one this weekend actually.

I used chamomille in my last one as per the mosher instruction i radical brewing, and it tasted absolutely fantastic. i used a combination of chamomille, cumin, crushed coriander and orange peel .. jsut want to get the ratios right now. 7grams of dried chamomille ..but ive seent he flowers in a tea shop so im goign to try those.

oh, my last one had a few juniper berries in it too - only a slight hint of that, but tasted great.



Anyone have a great sure-fire partial recipe I can try? I didnt get much haze in my last one,e ven though i used plain flour .. i found this flour in the asian food sore called "atta flour" that I might use? apparently its really high in protein ..


Oh, ona side note. As soon as this Wit is done, I'm going to use the yeast trub to make a bruin/peeterman style beer... if thats the actual name for it. It'll basically be a dunkel style witbier .. i havn't seen much on this style anywhere, or that it has been done much before, so if anyone has any ideas for it let me know .. basically goign to be an experiment. Im doing spice matching as well, and I'm thinking of using some cardamom in it along with the usual.. and i have some dark wheat malt that should be great also .. any other suggestions for it, grain, etc would be much appreciated.


----------



## tangent

mine is drinking well at the moment but could have used more mandarin peel at flameout.
i thought i used too much coriander seed but after trying a La Chouffe last night, i think i could have used a bit more.


----------



## DarkFaerytale

why do i feel the need to read 9 pages everytime i think about making another wit

anyway i'm making a forbidden fruit clone soon but thought i'd make a wit to build up the yeasties for the bigger beer first so i can just dump in a cup of sludge instead of trying to build up anotehr starter. 

how did people go with there sour wits? having tasted a few sour beers latly i'v realised i like them but no idea where to begin with them. should i just add 3% acidulated malt? maybe sour some malt like les did in his other thread? or perhaps put half the brew aside and infect it with some orval dregs (my prefered option)? 

would like to hear your idea's or how you guys went about souring a wit

cheers

-Phill


----------



## DarkFaerytale

once again i should think befor i post, souring a wit then putting another beer ontop of it would sour that beer, idiot. still i would love to hear peoples preferences on souring a wit

-Phill


----------



## bconnery

DarkFaerytale said:


> once again i should think befor i post, souring a wit then putting another beer ontop of it would sour that beer, idiot. still i would love to hear peoples preferences on souring a wit
> 
> -Phill



I'd say it would work well. Kind of a berlinner wit as it were. 

I wouldn't necessarily be so sure that the sourness would carry through. I'm fairly certain it would but an experience I had made me wonder. 

I recently had an infected Scottish ale. The infection turned out to be a wild yeast infection, at least if the person who identified is correct, and it took a while to become obvious. In the meantime I had pitched a belgian golden on the yeast cake of the scottish, to approximate a duvel, and away that one went. 

4 months on the Scottish is all tipped out as each bottle had become a gusher but the golden ale is beautiful. So either wild yeast infections don't necessarily carry through or else they work well in a belgian, which is very possible of course  . The point being that it doesn't seem 100% certain that a soured wort would carry through, although it more than very likely would. 

Then again, a soured forbidden fruit type beer wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing now would it?


----------



## Stuster

If you soured it with acid malt, that certainly wouldn't carry through to the next beer. Or you could infect it with Orval in secondary, keeping the primary yeast cake pure.


----------



## Steve

Going to make a Wit on the weekend. Whats peoples preferred White Labs yeast to use? Never used WL yeast. Can you just pitch it or do you have to make a starter? Or would WB06 be suitable?
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Dave86

Steve said:


> Going to make a Wit on the weekend. Whats peoples preferred White Labs yeast to use? Never used WL yeast. Can you just pitch it or do you have to make a starter? Or would WB06 be suitable?
> Cheers
> Steve



The new WB-06 yeast is for german wheat based beers, innappropriate for a wit, you need to get a liquid yeast. Not sure on what people prefer but white labs have two wit strains WLP400 and WLP410 (the 410 is a platinum strain, harder to get hold of). Another belgian strain may be an OK substitute and make a nice beer, but you really want a proper wit yeast for the traditional witbier flavour.

Dave


----------



## Steve

Dave86 said:


> The new WB-06 yeast is for german wheat based beers, innappropriate for a wit, you need to get a liquid yeast. Not sure on what people prefer but white labs have two wit strains WLP400 and WLP410 (the 410 is a platinum strain, harder to get hold of). Another belgian strain may be an OK substitute and make a nice beer, but you really want a proper wit yeast for the traditional witbier flavour.
> 
> Dave




Thanks Dave
Steve


----------



## bconnery

If you really can't or really don't want to use liquid, and it is easily the best choice for this style, t58 is a backup option.
Mind you, Chad from this forum has been placing very well in comps with his wit, and it used k-97... So the use of raw wheat and appropriate spice levels would appear to be the most important aspect...

I an also say that WLP550 works quite nicely, if you are interested in a more multi-purpose yeast for reuse reasons...
But a specialty wit yeast would be the best choice...


----------



## Steve

bconnery said:


> If you really can't or really don't want to use liquid, and it is easily the best choice for this style, t58 is a backup option.
> Mind you, Chad from this forum has been placing very well in comps with his wit, and it used k-97... So the use of raw wheat and appropriate spice levels would appear to be the most important aspect...
> 
> I an also say that WLP550 works quite nicely, if you are interested in a more multi-purpose yeast for reuse reasons...
> But a specialty wit yeast would be the best choice...




Thanks bc - ive only made one wit before and that was with T58. It turned out well.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Tony

OK..... i have plans to make a Belgian Witbier.

Im growing my own coriander seeds in the garden and they are starting to seed which is tops.

I have been thinking o unmalted wheat. This "sot white wheat" they speak about.

Can i just use plain old unmalted wheat. i can get it cheap at the local Ag store that sells all that sort o thing. and some oats.

It would all go through through the mill no worries and mized in with some pils malt would possibly work. May need some rice gulls too.

anyway.... back to the coriander seeds. I cant wait to harvest them. Im going to get hunderds o them 

I am making a big batch o bitter orange marmalade this weekend with 30% cumquats so will scoop a bit o this in or the orange hit.

anyway....... what is everyones opinion on unmalted wheat?

Im interested to know.

cheers


----------



## tangent

unmalted wheat is great Tony.
you get that fresh smell when you mill it, so you know it's all good 
I'd much rather use that than commercial flour.


----------



## Tony

I will get some resh wheat and oats and give it a try with some malted wheat and pils malt. should be nice.

Shame to have to buy an expensive liquid yeast or the one brew. Does anyone have a culture i could borow a bit. I will pay postage 

cheers


----------



## amita

Tony said:


> I will get some resh wheat and oats and give it a try with some malted wheat and pils malt. should be nice.
> 
> Shame to have to buy an expensive liquid yeast or the one brew. Does anyone have a culture i could borow a bit. I will pay postage
> 
> cheers




Hi Tony, cant help but laugh when I read your mail written with *ucked keyboard and looking at your photo I wonder if you speak like you write????  

anyway cant help you with the wheat question but regarding the harvest of your corriander seeds,my partner harvests them by putting the whole plant in a big brown paper bag and wait for the seeds to dry and fall of the stalks, just shake the bag and collect the seeds in the bottom.

Bottled my Wit 2 weeks ago and am surprised to find that the taste has changed considerably, the orange has gone to the background, as well as the corriander , its almost like its a different beer, will wait few more weeks and hope it will come back,did use wyeast Belgian Wit, went of like a rocket after I made a starter for a 50 liter batch.

good luck,
cheers amita

PS dont think my culture will survive shipping from country WA :unsure:


----------



## Tony

yeah thats what i was going to do. I googled it. It said when hal the seeds start to turn brown to cut them o and hang them in bags to catch the seeds as they dry and drop.

And as or my picture.... its amazing how many AHB people i meet that say...... you look nothing like your avatar 

click on my mane or a pic o the real me 

cheers

PS..... i sent a WLP833 yeast culture in a whitelabs vial to Ash in perth and it survived the trip


----------



## Screwtop

Tony said:


> OK..... i have plans to make a Belgian Witbier.
> 
> Im growing my own coriander seeds in the garden and they are starting to seed which is tops.
> 
> I have been thinking o unmalted wheat. This "sot white wheat" they speak about.
> 
> Can i just use plain old unmalted wheat. i can get it cheap at the local Ag store that sells all that sort o thing. and some oats.
> 
> It would all go through through the mill no worries and mized in with some pils malt would possibly work. May need some rice gulls too.
> 
> anyway.... back to the coriander seeds. I cant wait to harvest them. Im going to get hunderds o them
> 
> I am making a big batch o bitter orange marmalade this weekend with 30% cumquats so will scoop a bit o this in or the orange hit.
> 
> anyway....... what is everyones opinion on unmalted wheat?
> 
> Im interested to know.
> 
> cheers




Geez Tony the Coriander looks happy, I wait for the flowers to die off then cut off the seed heads and put them in paper bags in the shed to dry. Crushed fresh seeds explode with citrus aroma, keep some to plant again next year to keep it going. I prefer Torrified wheat easier on the sparge. K97 makes great Wit and it's cheap. 

Screwy


----------



## Tony

YEah screwey, its happy alright. You should have seen it when it was all upright. We have had about 6 inches o rain recently (tipped 72mm out o the rain guage thismorning orm the last couple o days) and the water weighed it all down and it layed down over the lawn. I acually lost a third o it to this as it all died underneath and i had to rip some out because it was killing my basil plants, and i wasnt going to stand or that.

Im gowing them mysel because i really want the seeds to be resh when i use them. I squshed a green one today and it smelt great.

K97 hey.... i have a pack o it in the ridge. what temp do you use it at?

cheers


----------



## Screwtop

Tony said:


> YEah screwey, its happy alright. You should have seen it when it was all upright. We have had about 6 inches o rain recently (tipped 72mm out o the rain guage thismorning orm the last couple o days) and the water weighed it all down and it layed down over the lawn. I acually lost a third o it to this as it all died underneath and i had to rip some out because it was killing my basil plants, and i wasnt going to stand or that.
> 
> Im gowing them mysel because i really want the seeds to be resh when i use them. I squshed a green one today and it smelt great.
> 
> K97 hey.... i have a pack o it in the ridge. what temp do you use it at?
> 
> cheers




Recently made Chad's Wit, it was the best home brew examply I've ever tasted. Fermented with 2 sachets of K97 @ 18C from 1.044 to 1.008 in 12 days.

Screwy


----------



## dig

I'm on the raw wheat band wagon at the moment. Back in my MSB days, we used to use raw wheat in a wit by simply adding it whole to the mill. Aaaw man, it sounded like ball bearings being crushed.

I've punched out about ten wits recently using raw but torrified (puffed) wheat. Interesting stuff. Lends a definite 'breakfast cereal' character to the beer rather than a fresh wheatiness.

On Monday, I'll be punching out another pair, this time employing raw rolled wheat. It does taste deliciously fresh and wheatie and I hope that characters carries over into the finished beer. I've finally tracked down some dried bitter orange peel too which will save me an hour of zesting before each brew day.


----------



## reVoxAHB

Great thread guys.. I've learned a lot. Cheers Stuster for the initial post with some fantastic links.. just listed to the BBR session :super: 

In all of this information, no one has mentioned toasting your corriander or cumin seed before crushing. Would this be advised? I know a quick 30 seconds in a hot dry pan can do wonders for dried spice (seed or powder).. was thinking this can only help to bring out the spice, certainly awaken it.

I'll be using Indian corriander and cumin seed.

Cheers, 
reVox


----------



## sponge

I'm not sure about beer making, but it sure works in cooking. Id be assuming that it would only do the beer a world of good.


Sponge


----------



## Weizguy

I think that you don't need any toasted spice flavour in this style, but hey, suck it and see. It could be fantastic.
However, maybe there's a reason that the original Belgian brewers do not do it...?

Just my opinion though. If you toast your spices, please report here or in a new toasted Wit thread.

Beerzup
Les


----------



## reVoxAHB

Les the Weizguy said:


> However, maybe there's a reason that the original Belgian brewers do not do it...?



That was my concern, as well. Realistically, I'll have to do a split batch to test this (toast vs. untoast).. or back to back batches (I have a 1kg bag of Indian Coriander and Indian Cumin seed, so at least the adjunct/ingredient will be consistent across batches). 

Thanks,
reVox


----------



## Fourstar

I couldnt forsee an issue with 'toasting' the spice, simply warming them would be enough to 'awaken' the aromatics. If you have cooked a curry from scratch before you will know within 10-20 seconds of spices hitting the dry pan (no colour on them yet) they are already perfuming the kitchen. On the other hand when you make asian soups/mastertocks, you simply dump the spices into the broth, no questions asked, they still permiate the liquid with a beautiful spice profile.

Side note, with the K97 yeast. Isnt this a dry German wheat yeast? Does it impart the tartness of a liquid Belgian yeast??

Saf have a S-33 Yeast which is designed for Belgian trappist and wit. Has anyone used this with sucess?

profile below.

A very popular general purpose yeast, displaying both very robust conservation properties and consistent performance. This yeast produces superb flavour profiles and is used for the production of a varied range of top fermented special beers (Belgian type wheat beers, Trappist, etc.). Sedimentation: medium. Final gravity: high.


T-58 is another option, has a peppery/spicy profile. To Style with a Belgian Wit as per the BJCP guidelines.


----------



## Snow

Ok guys, I need some help working this out.

I made a wit yesterday, with 3kg Wyermann pilsener malt and 3kg torrefied wheat. I normally get around 65% efficiency from my system, but this time I got a pathetic 51%  

The volume came out perfect, the crush was the same I always use, although I noticed the milling didn't seem to make much of a difference to the torrefied wheat, which was already pretty flat. The sparge went well, with temps around 78-81c. My mash-in liquor to grain ratio was 3L/kg. I did a double batch sparge of equal amounts. 

Any thoughts on what the hell went wrong? 

Cheers - Snow


----------



## Snow

<Bump> anybody?........ class, anybody?......Bueller?


----------



## warrenlw63

Hey Snow

I'd probably be dubious about Weyermann Pils malt handling such a large non-malt adjunct load with a standard mash.

Generally paranoia dictates I use JW, BB Pils malts when making a wit. Galaxy malt is particularly good in this regard.

Warren -


----------



## gap

I had similar low efficiency using Wey Pils malt in a Wit.


----------



## Snow

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Snow
> 
> I'd probably be dubious about Weyermann Pils malt handling such a large non-malt adjunct load with a standard mash.
> 
> Generally paranoia dictates I use JW, BB Pils malts when making a wit. Galaxy malt is particularly good in this regard.
> 
> Warren -


Oh wow - you know it never ocurred to me that the Pils would be the problem! Is Wey Pils generally low in efficiency in all grists, or is just with non-enzymatic grains/adjuncts? 

I'm spewing now, as I have 10kg of Galaxy, but I just thought the Wey Pils would go better in the wit. <_< 

Cheers - Snow


----------



## warrenlw63

Snow more a case of the adjunct load I'd say. By itself it (Wey Pils) converts at a similar efficiency to local malts.

In an ideal world you could have done a blend of Weyermann Pils and Galaxy with your wheat. Galaxy will eat it's way through bricks enzyme wise.

Warren -


----------



## Weizguy

FWIW, I recently made a batch of Witbier. I used about 50% IMC pils malt and 45% rolled wheat and 5% rolled oats, with 600g rice hulls (not used in the percentage calculation).

My extract efficiency was a mighty 70ish per cent. Maybe it's because I performed a 3 hour acid/hydration rest @ 35 C and a 30 minute protein rest @ 50C. The effect on the head retention is unknown, as I'm currently working on a yeast culture of about 3 litres to get this beast off the ground.

Hope this helps.
Les


----------



## goatherder

Why the big pitch Les? Big batch?


----------



## Weizguy

All Belgian beers need a large pitch, I have read. Have had problems with slow starts to Belgians/ Witbier with smaller starters.

This is more useful for high gravity beer, but should be scaled up from normal beer pitching rates.

Thanks for the reminder and I have done some more research, (from my brew notes and the web), as it's been a while since I last brewed a Wit. I discovered that a 1.5 litre pitch is what I used last time and it was sufficient. I may scale to 2 litres as it's a larger batch this time (about 26 litres). It may even be ready for the B&T comp.

I hope to brew a Grand Cru (of the Hoegaarden style) on the yeastcake.

(edit: swapped a word and corrected spelling)


----------



## reVoxAHB

note, Jamil's podcast has moved to: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jam...l-Show-03-13-06 

maybe a mod can revise Stusters post#1 to reflect changes?

reVox


----------



## Stuster

Thanks for that, reVox. I've changed the original post and put that in.

Wait, now I have to change all the links on all the threads. Yeah, thanks for that, reVox. :angry:


----------



## reVoxAHB

Stuster said:


> Thanks for that, reVox. I've changed the original post and put that in.
> 
> Wait, now I have to change all the links on all the threads. Yeah, thanks for that, reVox. :angry:



Hehe :lol: . I didn't check the other links or would've gladly found 'em for ya  . Great thread again, btw. 
Cheers.


----------



## cubbie

After reading this thread i have a few question re ingredients, what exactly they are (any alternative names) and how they should be used ( ie do they need to be crushed, how should they be mashed, what % volume of the total grist should they be)

There are a lot of comments so I would like to consolidate them a bit. I assume everything on my list is un-malted, please correct me if I am wrong.
*
Wheat (Raw) unmalted eg JW* (is this the same as raw wheat from a health food shop?) 

Un-malted whole Wheat, needs to be milled, how to mash?? %??

*torrified wheat* (is this also flaked wheat, rolled wheat?)

Torrified Wheat has been heat treated to break the cellular structure, allowing more rapid hydration and malt enzymes to more completely attack the starches and protein. Torrified Wheat can be used in place of raw wheat when making Belgian-style White and Wit beers. Advantages over raw wheat include normal conversion time and higher yield - thanks Ross

Does not need to be crushed, can be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??

*flaked wheat* (not wheat flakes)

*Bourghoul or Burghul or Bulgar* (is this also known as cracked wheat?)

Does not need to be crushed, an be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??

Crushed, steamed (precooked) wheat

*Flour* 

I think we all know what floor is but should we be using plain ie for cakes or strong ie for bread, white, wholemeal, stroneground?

Does not need to be crushed,can be thrown in the mash and also as a small late addition to the boil, how to mash?? %??

*Semolina*

is the purified middlings of hard wheat. As the wheat is rolled flake off the bran and germ, and the starch (or endosperm) is cracked into coarse pieces in the process. Through sifting, these particles are separated from the bran and this is semolina

Does not need to be crushed, Can be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??

any others?


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## gap

cubbie said:


> After reading this thread i have a few question re ingredients, what exactly they are (any alternative names) and how they should be used ( ie do they need to be crushed, how should they be mashed, what % volume of the total grist should they be)
> 
> There are a lot of comments so I would like to consolidate them a bit. I assume everything on my list is un-malted, please correct me if I am wrong.
> *
> Wheat (Raw) unmalted eg JW* (is this the same as raw wheat from a health food shop?)
> 
> Un-malted whole Wheat, needs to be milled, how to mash?? %??
> 
> *torrified wheat* (is this also flaked wheat, rolled wheat?)
> 
> Torrified Wheat has been heat treated to break the cellular structure, allowing more rapid hydration and malt enzymes to more completely attack the starches and protein. Torrified Wheat can be used in place of raw wheat when making Belgian-style White and Wit beers. Advantages over raw wheat include normal conversion time and higher yield - thanks Ross
> 
> Does not need to be crushed, can be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??
> 
> *flaked wheat* (not wheat flakes)
> 
> *Bourghoul or Burghul or Bulgar* (is this also known as cracked wheat?)
> 
> Does not need to be crushed, an be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??
> 
> Crushed, steamed (precooked) wheat
> 
> *Flour*
> 
> I think we all know what floor is but should we be using plain ie for cakes or strong ie for bread, white, wholemeal, stroneground?
> 
> Does not need to be crushed,can be thrown in the mash and also as a small late addition to the boil, how to mash?? %??
> 
> *Semolina*
> 
> is the purified middlings of hard wheat. As the wheat is rolled flake off the bran and germ, and the starch (or endosperm) is cracked into coarse pieces in the process. Through sifting, these particles are separated from the bran and this is semolina
> 
> Does not need to be crushed, Can be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??
> 
> any others?




All of the above are substitutes for each other and are just mashed with the base malt you use.


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## KoNG

cubbie said:


> After reading this thread i have a few question re ingredients, what exactly they are (any alternative names) and how they should be used ( ie do they need to be crushed, how should they be mashed, what % volume of the total grist should they be)
> 
> There are a lot of comments so I would like to consolidate them a bit. I assume everything on my list is un-malted, please correct me if I am wrong.
> *
> Wheat (Raw) unmalted eg JW* (is this the same as raw wheat from a health food shop?)
> 
> Un-malted whole Wheat, needs to be milled, how to mash?? %??
> 
> *torrified wheat* (is this also flaked wheat, rolled wheat?)
> 
> Torrified Wheat has been heat treated to break the cellular structure, allowing more rapid hydration and malt enzymes to more completely attack the starches and protein. Torrified Wheat can be used in place of raw wheat when making Belgian-style White and Wit beers. Advantages over raw wheat include normal conversion time and higher yield - thanks Ross
> 
> Does not need to be crushed, can be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??
> 
> *flaked wheat* (not wheat flakes)
> 
> *Bourghoul or Burghul or Bulgar* (is this also known as cracked wheat?)
> 
> Does not need to be crushed, an be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??
> 
> Crushed, steamed (precooked) wheat
> 
> *Flour*
> 
> I think we all know what floor is but should we be using plain ie for cakes or strong ie for bread, white, wholemeal, stroneground?
> 
> Does not need to be crushed,can be thrown in the mash and also as a small late addition to the boil, how to mash?? %??
> 
> *Semolina*
> 
> is the purified middlings of hard wheat. As the wheat is rolled flake off the bran and germ, and the starch (or endosperm) is cracked into coarse pieces in the process. Through sifting, these particles are separated from the bran and this is semolina
> 
> Does not need to be crushed, Can be thrown straight into the mash, how to mash?? %??
> 
> any others?




I've tried most of those variants at some point.
Raw wheat stands out as the leader by a country mile...!
search it out, its worth the little effort.


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## cubbie

I was in Kakulas (Northbridge) on the weekend and noticed that they had a large sack of Wheat Grain. I assume this is raw wheat. Anyway i think it was $1.60 (or so) /kg.


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## 3G

Just made a CAP and did a cereal mash and got 80% eff. Does anyone think a cereal mash would be beneficial for a wit.
For the CAP i steeped 2kilo polenta with 500grams boho pils malt at 50 for 20 mins then 66 for 30 mins then boiled for 20 mins then added back to the main mash to bring it up from 50 degrees to 64 degrees.


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## therook

Doing my first Belgian Wit

Decided to post here and also in the "What are you brewing thread "

3.0kg Galaxy
2.0 Unmalted Wheat
350gm Rolled Oats
4 plugs Saaz 60 minutes
10 grams tettnanger 15 minutes
17 grams Corriander 10 minutes
8 grams Corriander 0 minutes
17 grams Orange Peel 20 minutes
18 grams orange Peel 0 minutes

IBU's - 14.2

OG - 1.045
FG - 1.010

Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale 

Mashed at 65c for 90 minutes

Fermented 25c

Thoughts ???????????????????????????

Warren has talked me into dumping a Saison onto the yeast cake

Rook


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## KoNG

cubbie said:


> I was in Kakulas (Northbridge) on the weekend and noticed that they had a large sack of Wheat Grain. I assume this is raw wheat. Anyway i think it was $1.60 (or so) /kg.



Cubbie, i'd assume raw wheat for sure..... they have the same thing at Swansea Street Markets in Vic Park.
I've used it for a couple of Wits.



therook said:


> Doing my first Belgian Wit
> 
> Decided to post here and also in the "What are you brewing thread "
> 
> 3.0kg Galaxy
> 2.0 Unmalted Wheat
> 350gm Rolled Oats
> 4 plugs Saaz 60 minutes
> 10 grams tettnanger 15 minutes
> 17 grams Corriander 10 minutes
> 8 grams Corriander 0 minutes
> 17 grams Orange Peel 20 minutes
> 18 grams orange Peel 0 minutes
> 
> IBU's - 14.2
> 
> OG - 1.045
> FG - 1.010
> 
> Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale
> 
> Mashed at 65c for 90 minutes
> 
> Fermented 25c
> 
> Thoughts ???????????????????????????
> 
> Warren has talked me into dumping a Saison onto the yeast cake
> 
> Rook



Looks good Rookie.
Myself, i'm skeptical of the orange peel addition. I've tried several variants and nothing seems to give anything desired/required (just me of course).
i reckon the right hops these days allow you to brew something better without the need for the peel. 
Coriander on the other hand is definitely unique... make sure its indian..!
Not that crap Wazza uses... pffft

OuT
KoNG


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## KoNG

You kegged yet Rook...??
how is it...???


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## therook

KoNG said:


> You kegged yet Rook...??
> how is it...???




Sorry i didn't get back to you Kong.....

This beer turned out sensational....very Hoegaardenish

Will be using the Forbidden Fruit yeast many more times.

Wazza got the unmalted wheat for me and this is deffinately the key to this beer along with the spices....thanks Wazza

also 

Thanks Chad for help with the Corriander and Orange peel quantities

Rook


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## Fourstar

therook said:


> Sorry i didn't get back to you Kong.....
> This beer turned out sensational....very Hoegaardenish
> Will be using the Forbidden Fruit yeast many more times.
> Wazza got the unmalted wheat for me and this is deffinately the key to this beer along with the spices....thanks Wazza
> also
> Thanks Chad for help with the Corriander and Orange peel quantities
> Rook



Looks like a good recipe Rooky! My wit is ready to be pitched on as soon as i pull my starter off the stirplate. I went the lazy method with malted wheat as the last witbier i had (in Veitnam) was made with JW malted wheat 50:50 w/pilsner. It was sensational so i'll try my luck with malted wheat and 10% oats this round and replicate the recipe with unmalted in the future for a purist true witbier! B) 

How does the farmhouse yeast stand up to the witbier? Turn it more like a saison?


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## therook

Fourstar said:


> Looks like a good recipe Rooky! My wit is ready to be pitched on as soon as i pull my starter off the stirplate. I went the lazy method with malted wheat as the last witbier i had (in Veitnam) was made with JW malted wheat 50:50 w/pilsner. It was sensational so i'll try my luck with malted wheat and 10% oats this round and replicate the recipe with unmalted in the future for a purist true witbier! B)
> 
> How does the farmhouse yeast stand up to the witbier? Turn it more like a saison?



4star, I haven't tried the witbier yeast but the taste of the resultant beer was so close to Hoegaarden it wasn't funny and the unmalted wheat gave it a nice tartiness.

I have a spare slant of Forbidden Fruit if you want one

send me a PM if you do

Rook


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## Tony

I tried an interesting beer the other day........ A Whitbier!

It was interesting because its not on the shelves yet but should be some time next year.

AFAIK, it will be called Hahn White and will be marketed to be drank with a wedge of orange.

Its a bit cloudy, has a nice mouthfeel but has been spiced with "spice flavoring" and tastes a bit "cheap perfumey" if you know what i mean.

So to impress my dad who gave me the blind tasting (here...... drink that and tell me what it is), im going to make a Wit. I have some torified wheat on the way, a pack of forbidden fruit yeast, and the will to do better!

I read through almost all of this thread last night..... brought back memories of my "F" key not working, the coriander seed i grew (which i dropped on the concrete in its glass jar and lost all of it) and thismorning read the bit saying weyermann pilsner wont convert lots of torrified wheat very well 

As i only have weyermann pils, i may have to just up the rice gulla and let it circ through the HERMS and monitor the mash gravity untill it stops converting. Hopefully this will work ok but i am planning on downgrading my usual efficiency of 80% to more like 65 or 70% for this beer.

fingers crossed hey


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## Tony

Going to have a crack at my first Wit on sunday 

The forbidden fruit yeast is an animal and finnished the starter in a little over 24 hrs, and i have some good pilsner malt for the job now thanks to the generous efforts of a fellow AHB'er

The only thing im nervous about is the spice additions. Im making a 54 liter batch and after a lot of reading it seems less is more when spicing this style up. I have some great dried orange peel and indian coriander, and im thinking one 10 min addition in the boil of about 20g of each., maybe 15 g of the orange as i dont want it to dominate.

Also..... will uncle tobys qiuck oats be ok for this style?


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Tony said:


> Going to have a crack at my first Wit on sunday
> 
> The forbidden fruit yeast is an animal and finnished the starter in a little over 24 hrs, and i have some good pilsner malt for the job now thanks to the generous efforts of a fellow AHB'er
> 
> The only thing im nervous about is the spice additions. Im making a 54 liter batch and after a lot of reading it seems less is more when spicing this style up. I have some great dried orange peel and indian coriander, and im thinking one 10 min addition in the boil of about 20g of each., maybe 15 g of the orange as i dont want it to dominate.
> 
> Also..... will uncle tobys qiuck oats be ok for this style?




If your going for your first wit, why don't you do something simple (no spices, wheat malt and single hop)???

Good luck!


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## Tony

_WALLACE_ said:


> If your going for your first wit, why don't you do something simple (no spices, wheat malt and single hop)???
> 
> Good luck!



:lol: Me.......... Simple......... naaaaa never.  

Its going to be about 50% torrified wheat, 43% pils and 7% oats, but no way in hell am i skipping the spice....... i love the spice.

Its just going to be a suck it and see exercise and improve it the next time i guess.


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## Bada Bing Brewery

I had some advice from James at Brewz2you here in WA. Be gentle with the spice and work upwards slowly...... good advice because I wanted to bomb the shit out of it with coriander and orange.
I ended up going with (20L brew)
3 teaspoons of angus park mixed peel @10 (pressed for time - couldnt get oranges)
2 teaspoons of coriander seeds roasted and crushed @ flameout
I used stryian goldings up to 14 IBU's - also his advice.

It is very nice and subtle, turned out well using the Wyeast belgian wit. Next time I might increase both a bit - maybe 5 teaspoons of peel and 3 of coriander. 
Brew on
Cheers
BBB


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## Tony

ok... so a bit more peel than coriander hey.

Those amounts sound very close to what im planning so id say im on the money or there abouts.

Cheers for the info


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## Bada Bing Brewery

Tony said:


> ok... so a bit more peel than coriander hey.
> 
> Those amounts sound very close to what im planning so id say im on the money or there abouts.
> 
> Cheers for the info



Let me know !!!!!! I'll be doing this again in about 6 weeks
Cheers Tony
BBB


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## Nick JD

Step ... away ... from ... the corriander  

Nah, seriously though - the two style faults of a Wit are "celery" and "ham". I've managed to do them both and yup, it's an aftertaste of SOUP. Ham bone soup ... heavy on the celery, like Nana used to make. 

Orange peel? Bung as much as you want in. No worries. Hoegaarden has a reasonably heavy citrus flavour. Just watch the pith. Get dried tangerine from the Chinese Supermarket if you can - it rocks.

Just hold back on the corriander or you'll get celery.


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## Tony

i wish we had chinese grocers around here....... in fact, i rarely see asian people around here so very small market i guess....... shame as i love asian cooking!

The indian coriander i have has a wonderful lemon character an i think i will toast it up first to intinsify it and try and stop some of that raw vegitable flavour.

Good thinking


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## jakub76

Tony said:


> will uncle tobys qiuck oats be ok for this style?



I used supermarket quick oats in my last 2 wits and it worked great. I tried boiling/gelatinizing some oats for a recent pale ale - I got better efficiency out of the oats but the goo gummed up my mash so I won't be boiling them again.

As for corriander I wouldn't be scared of it. As long as you grind the whole seeds yourself just before using them it adds a beautiful citrus flavour and aroma. I use 15g for a 24 litre batch. I also use a single star anise and 14g of chamomile tea. I tried dried, bitter orange peel and got nothing out of it...maybe some dust flavour and a little bitterness. I now use fresh orange Zest, 2 oranges for a 24L batch. I tried zest of 6 oranges in a batch and it overwhelmed it.

I add all of the spices in with 5 minutes boil remaining...a lot of people do flameout and whirlpool only - too long in the boil will drive off all that aroma.


----------



## Tony

mmmmm just realised i didnt buy torrified wheat....... i bought JW Raw wheat 

it heated up the pully on the mills motor from the drive belt slipping trying to pull it through the 10 inch wide rollers 

Now to work out if any special rest stops are needed for raw wheat.

cheers


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## bullsneck

Tony said:


> mmmmm just realised i didnt buy torrified wheat....... i bought JW Raw wheat
> 
> it heated up the pully on the mills motor from the drive belt slipping trying to pull it through the 10 inch wide rollers
> 
> Now to work out if any special rest stops are needed for raw wheat.
> 
> cheers



I am brewing a Wit here on Saturday. I'm interested in how your Raw Wheat worked.

Here's the recipe...


*BOAB Witbier* (Witbier)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 3.4 (EBC): 6.6
Bitterness (IBU): 19.2 (Tinseth)

54.7% Weyermann FM Bohemien Pilsner
34.29% Torrified Wheat
11.01% Flaked Oats

1.5 g/L Saaz (3.7% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
1 g/L Saaz (3.7% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil)

0.2 g/L Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
0.7 g/L Chamomile @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
0.3 g/L Corriander Seed @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
1.9 g/L Orange Peel @ 1 Minutes (Boil)

Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 18C with Wyeast 3944 - Belgian Witbier

Notes: Mash

52 for 15

68 for 45mins

76 out for 15

Grains 
Wheat and Oats (mill hard!)

Zest 5 oranges

Grind the Corriander seeds well

Carbonate to 3.0 volumes

Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*

I've heard that a Cereal mash will help with the main mash and efficiency. Anyone care to elaborate what their process was if they have gone down this path?

Cheers,

bullsneck


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## bullsneck

Bump-erooni!


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## sirotilc

Has anyone seen dried bitter orange peel for sale lately? CB and G&G used to have it but no longer it seems. 

Also to contribute - native pepperberries (small amount <5g) are an excellent addition to a wit, it's a very unique flavour.


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## hoohaaman

sirotilc said:


> Has anyone seen dried bitter orange peel for sale lately? CB and G&G used to have it but no longer it seems.
> 
> Also to contribute - native pepperberries (small amount <5g) are an excellent addition to a wit, it's a very unique flavour.



Good to use substitutes,that is why this style is around.Pepperberries would meld with the Saaz great i think.


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## rbtmc

Hey guy's

Just came across some komquats recently and was thinking of doing a witbier with them, searched the forum to no avail.

Anyone here tried this? What did you think?

Recipe so far: 
50% JWM Pils
50% Torrefied Wheat (Grain & Grape don't do raw?)

Zest of 5(?) komquats
Coriander seeds
Hallertau to 16 IBU

Wyeast 3942

Any ideas on quantities would be appreciated.


----------



## brettprevans

rbtmc said:


> Hey guy's
> 
> Just came across some komquats recently and was thinking of doing a witbier with them, searched the forum to no avail.
> 
> Anyone here tried this? What did you think?
> 
> Recipe so far:
> 50% JWM Pils
> 50% Torrefied Wheat (Grain & Grape don't do raw?)
> 
> Zest of 5(?) komquats
> Coriander seeds
> Hallertau to 16 IBU
> 
> Wyeast 3942
> 
> Any ideas on quantities would be appreciated.


taste the zest of the kumquat and judge as to whether it will hold up. you could always puree some kumquats and add to secondary if the zest doesnt impart enough flavour.

as for terrified wheat, some prefer it to raw wheat as you dont need to muck around with it, you can add straight into the mash and not do a cerial mash. imparts the same qualities as raw wheat.


----------



## mje1980

Hey guys, a question. If using unmalted/raw wheat ( 50% ) in your witbiers, do you do any extra steps in the mash??. I've read a long protein rest can help. Im comfortable with doing infusion step mashing. Been a few years since i did a wit, which was lovely, but i used malted wheat then, and would like to try another, but a bit more "authentic"

Cheers


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## r055c0

Resurrecting a bit of an old topic here and my apologies in advance if this has been covered elsewhere, I'm going to put together a very simple witbier (50% torrified wheat, 50% pils, orange peel, corriander) and having a look around on the interwebs I see traditionally the style was brewed without hops. Has anyone ever brewed a wit without hops? Is it worth repeating?


----------



## gap

This is the first I have heard of this, no hops!!!

Also you should use one of the liquid Wit yeasts with this as the flavours
are driven by the yeast, the raw wheat and by the subtle use of spice and dried Orange peel.


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## r055c0

The no hops thing surprised me also, that why I thought I should ask the question. I know the hops isn't really supposed to be apparent in the style.

I plan to use Wyeast 3944 Belgian Witbier.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

A couple of things.

I never had one without any hops. I read the the orange peel was originally used to add some bitterness as hops were very expensive/hard to get.
I have used saaz and goldings with good results. I usually aim for an IBU of ~15.

I suggest adding 5-10% rolled oats


----------



## r055c0

Yeah I was considering oats, will bung some in


----------



## r055c0

Getting the ingredients for my wit witout hops tonight so this might be the last chance for someone to talk me out of doing something (potentially) silly, has anyone made a wit without using hops? Was it good?


----------



## Spohaw

If I used Meyer lemon (lemon X orange hybrid) peel in place of orange peel would it still be classed as a wit beer?

My wit also comes out noticeably lemony ....just wondering if it could still be classed as a wit or would it be in a different category if entering into a comp

Cheers Spohaw


----------

