# As if I needed another reason to not buy C.U.B. products.



## Bridges (13/7/16)

I'd be pretty sure not too many of our members are buying their products anyway but this sort of behavior is abhorrent and what we have to look forward to with Turnball and Cash running their special brand of work choices industrial relations.

For Balance here's a few sources.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/staff-picket-cub-factory-as-sackings-stall-production-20160712-gq3zsx.html

http://www.actu.org.au/actu-media/media-releases/2016/cub-workers-being-forced-to-reapply-for-jobs-at-lower-pay-a-sign-of-things-to-come

https://www.etuvic.com.au/content/cub-workers

I don't care how you paint this, it's a shit act by a company that can and should look after it's workforce.


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## SBOB (13/7/16)

not supporting them, and mostly devils advocate, but technically, THEY didn't fire those workers.Based on those links, 
- Those workers were hired by a maintenance company with a (and i quote from one of those articles) "long-standing maintenance contract"

So, just like any contact work, contacts end. They arent guaranteed full time employment, and they dont come with the same kind of employment guarantees (and as such, often have much higher pay rates )

If the new maintenance contractor who CUB is outsourcing its maintenance to know chooses to (or has to *shrug*) have lower pay rates, thats not really CUB's problem/fault


(its the same as when I hear complaints about contractors or contractor employees who work in mining, getting paid massively above what 'regular' people earn for the same wage, and they contracts are cancelled or come to an end.. its one of those risk/rewards about contract work or working for a contractor)


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## yankinoz (13/7/16)

I'm with you, Bridges, but wonder if there's anyone on this forum who actually buys CUB products and can therefore boycott them.


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## Camo6 (13/7/16)

According to reports I've read, the staff were stood down and offered new contracts at non EBA award rates at close to a third of what they earned. This from a company that reportedly made $4.4 billion last year, $62 million of that going to the CEO. Just another example of big companies trying to drive down labour wages in order to maintain ever increasing profits. They say our current level of wages aren't sustainable but how the **** can you expect record profits to be? FFS now I sound like a shop steward.


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## SBOB (13/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> According to reports I've read, the staff were stood down and offered new contracts at non EBA award rates at close to a third of what they earned.


yes, but CUB isn't offering those contracts. The maintenance/electrical company they have engaged to do their maintenance work is...

I'll repeat what i said earlier, im mostly playing devils advocate, but if CUB enlisted contract company A for its maintenance for 10 years, that comes to an end and instead of re-contracting with company A decides to shop around and now enlists company B (who is "Catalyst Recruitment, which is in the Programmed/Skilled Group"), its not CUB's problem/responsibility as to what company A or company B pay their contract employees..


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## Camo6 (13/7/16)

SBOB said:


> ...its not CUB's problem/responsibility as to what company A or company B pay their contract employees...


Yeah, convenient that. You don't think they had any sway over the new conditions? Now, I'm no union thug by any means, but this kind of action is a worrying trend in so many industries nowadays.


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## SBOB (13/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Yeah, convenient that. You don't think they had any sway over the new conditions? Now, I'm no union thug by any means, but this kind of action is a worrying trend in so many industries nowadays.


im sure, based on their size, they have sway.. and like i said, mostly devils advocate
but when the headlines say 'workers fired and told to re-apply for 65% less pay' its not exactly accurate

sub-contractors earning $80+/hr on long term contracts should be treating their sub-contracting employment as just that, a contract employment. If CUB can find a new contract company able to find equally skilled workers for 65% of the price, it would probably indicate the current sub-contractors are being paid above average..

Hypothetically, if you are chasing a bunch of tradies during a shortage and have to pay more than normal to hire them, if in the future, there is an over supply of tradies, should you continue to pay the same higher rate, or is paying the market rate fair?


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## Killer Brew (13/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Yeah, convenient that. You don't think they had any sway over the new conditions? Now, I'm no union thug by any means, but this kind of action is a worrying trend in so many industries nowadays.


Why would CUB have sway on the conditions? Programmed are a massive company with plenty of contracts. CUB puts a contract out for tender and a different company wins it, almost certainly on price yes, but are CUB bound to pay more to preserve the wages of another company's workforce? At least that is the way i read it in the Age this morning.


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## TheWiggman (13/7/16)

I'm hearing you SBOB, but the mentality of companies hiring bulk contract labour like that annoys me. Personally, I like those around me - staff and wages - to wear the same badge as me and have pride in their company. Contact it out and all you'll do is upset people eventually. I'm married, have a mortgage, have beautiful kids and fear what might happen if I lose my job. Contractors aren't 'scabs', but instead of being a workforce should supplement it. Being a contractor carries risk but if dads like me were out of work and offered a job, I'd take it. 
Fairer in the first place to just employ your own people. Granted I don't know the whole story but that's what I reckon anyway.


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## yum beer (13/7/16)

These are the joys of our industrial capitalised society. Profits must increase no matter how.
Workers are a commodity for using as the pigs see fit.
Thank you every fucker who voted liberal.


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## Camo6 (13/7/16)

Killer Brew said:


> Why would CUB have sway on the conditions? Programmed are a massive company with plenty of contracts. CUB puts a contract out for tender and a different company wins it, almost certainly on price yes, but are CUB bound to pay more to preserve the wages of another company's workforce? At least that is the way i read it in the Age this morning.


The staff were sacked then offered their new jobs at non union rates and CUB had nothing to do with it? They didn't think the new contract wouldn't have an affect on their workers wages? Oh well, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Funnily enough, tradesman are probably their biggest target market and it would be nice to see a sustained effort to boycott the big breweries. Love to see all them union thugs putting away Pirate Life.


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## SBOB (13/7/16)

TheWiggman said:


> I'm hearing you SBOB, but the mentality of companies hiring bulk contract labour like that annoys me. Personally, I like those around me - staff and wages - to wear the same badge as me and have pride in their company. Contact it out and all you'll do is upset people eventually.


no argument there
I've worked on plenty of control system engineering jobs where I'm working along side sole/sub-contract workers who are being paid 2-3x my wage due to being contractors as opposed to employees.

But its the pro/con contract work comes with (generally), higher earnings with lower job security.
I also, choose the slightly higher job security options for the same reason you do, but when a contractor's contract is ended, I dont want to hear them complaining about having to go looking for their next job, when they have been perfectly happy taking home more $ while contracted.


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## SBOB (13/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> The staff were sacked then offered their new jobs at non union rates and CUB had nothing to do with it? T


I think its more like 'you're current contracts are finished. The new maintenance contract has been awarded to company xyz, so feel free to apply to company xyz'

The quotes/lines in most of those articles are somewhat 'union/one-sided' in their wording 

(again, mostly devils advocate here  )


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## Bridges (13/7/16)

Why can't a massive company employ staff? On a fair wage? Why must they contract shit like this out? Yeah I know it's all about the bottom line for the bloke taking home $62 million a year. But FFS $62 mill a year! Yet he's happily knifing people probably earning 0.1% of what he takes home each year. How do people like that sleep. It's just flat out cuntery.


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## Bridges (13/7/16)

yankinoz said:


> I'm with you, Bridges, but wonder if there's anyone on this forum who actually buys CUB products and can therefore boycott them.


Well maybe we can try a bit harder to change the minds of some friends or family members who mistakenly think the shit they turn out is drinkable...


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## arctic78 (13/7/16)

+1 Bridges 
But you know without that extra 5 million he may get this year as a bonus for cost cutting the poor guy would be really struggling to get by.


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## SBOB (13/7/16)

Bridges said:


> Why can't a massive company employ staff? On a fair wage?


considering the wages arent mentioned, how do you know the new contracts aren't 'fair'?
if a maintenance electrician or fitter was previously being paid $80/hr (~$150k a year) and is now being offered ~$95k a year, does that make the $95k/year unfair?


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## Camo6 (13/7/16)

SBOB said:


> The quotes/lines in most of those articles are somewhat 'union/one-sided' in their wording
> 
> (again, mostly devils advocate here  )


Swap 'union/one-sided' with 'empathetic' and you'll be closer to the mark. If we'd all sat back and accepted our lot we wouldn't have the freedoms we enjoy now.


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## lost at sea (13/7/16)

Organised labour unions......yeah but what did the romans ever do for us.


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## Judanero (13/7/16)

Bridges said:


> It's just flat out cuntery.


Just so you know; I am stealing this phrase. Sterling wordsmithery Bridges.


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## Zorco (13/7/16)

You're very likeable SBOB. Excellent view and accurate from my experience.

Contractors often feel disadvantaged at contract end when it has been a long engagement. Lots of people live to the limit of their income. 

Others recognise the higher rates and end up working their financial year with months off. Again... Better circumstances depending on your point of view.


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## Killer Brew (13/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> The staff were sacked then offered their new jobs at non union rates and CUB had nothing to do with it? They didn't think the new contract wouldn't have an affect on their workers wages? Oh well, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Funnily enough, tradesman are probably their biggest target market and it would be nice to see a sustained effort to boycott the big breweries. Love to see all them union thugs putting away Pirate Life.


CUB changed maintenance supplier. It was already outsourced so they sacked who exactly? Non-union rates hey? The union rates appears to have been around 3 times the going rate. Maybe it is either a choice of cutting costs or moving manufacturing offshore. Since the GFC we are seeing price deflation in the grocery and liquor sector driven by the large retailers. Manufacturers costs are not going down so perhaps the only way to deliver their EBIT to their parent companies is to carry savings through to the bottom line.


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## Crusty (13/7/16)

SBOB said:


> considering the wages arent mentioned, how do you know the new contracts aren't 'fair'?
> if a maintenance electrician or fitter was previously being paid $80/hr (~$150k a year) and is now being offered ~$95k a year, does that make the $95k/year unfair?


Of course it's unfair if your wage went from $150k to $95k.
The arshole Liberals push for this very cause. Big business matters to them & that's all that matters.
We all can't walk away with a $250k a year pension like the ex Pollies. Some of us work fucked jobs, fucked hours & fucked wages too.
Oh, I forgot to mention, how about we look at taking the lousy penalty rates away from us soon too so we can struggle our way through life some more.
Did I mention that the average pensioner gets $20k a year & a married pensioner couple gets $31k combined.
$62 million for the CEO, go **** yourself CUB & anything even remotely related to your company.


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## Zorco (13/7/16)

That's shifting topic isn't it? 

Regardless, agree whole heartedly.

Edit: dad's a pensioner


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## Diesel80 (13/7/16)

There is nobody here that would not work at a brewing company for 62M a year. You can buy plenty of stillnox for that and sleep just fine at night. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I am a contractor coming up 3 years now on current assignment but the whole time you only have a 1 week job. Notice period is the longest period of employment you can count on. Same as staff, just tends to be 4x longer and you are likely second out the door not first. Nothing lasts forever. There have been some great posts prior though. Some really well thought out. Hope my opinion doesn't lower the bar too far.....


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## Camo6 (14/7/16)

Killer Brew said:


> CUB changed maintenance supplier. It was already outsourced so they sacked who exactly? Non-union rates hey? The union rates appears to have been around 3 times the going rate. Maybe it is either a choice of cutting costs or moving manufacturing offshore. Since the GFC we are seeing price deflation in the grocery and liquor sector driven by the large retailers. Manufacturers costs are not going down so perhaps the only way to deliver their EBIT to their parent companies is to carry savings through to the bottom line.


Not arguing the legality of it moreso the morality of it. You can call that business but I call it disturbing. This isn't a once off, it's happening everywhere. Yet the profits keep rising. I've worked award rates and EBA rates and can assure you that union won EBA rates are not excessive for the work performed.


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

**** those shit ***** and their shitty fucken beer!


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## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

$62 million is what the union put out, take the 2 off that figure and it is more realistic, lots of the big companies employ contract labour, especially in the maintenance field, why, if they are not happy with the performance of an individual contractor then they are able to get him/her replaced, no hiding behind fair work or union petticoats for them. 
A companies right to hire and fire has been diminished, so they can't be blamed for using contract labour firms, and if a contractor gets his head down and arse up he will be remunerated accordingly.


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## SBOB (14/7/16)

just another devils advocate point

The majority of re-contracted complaints i see when older contracts are ended and new ones made, is not necessarily the shift in base wage, but a reduction in (what is usually) massively generous overtime conditions, such as minimum call out times.
- I've worked on jobs where any call out (i.e. a SCADA system sends an SMS to an operator, and requires approx 2 minutes of work by the operator to rectify) results in both a minimum 4 hour call out plus penalty rate loading on weekends. So a single alarm escalation can cost, for 2 minutes could actually cost 4 hours on a normal day, or 8 hours of pay due to the overtime conditions on a penalty rate scenario (such as weekend of if the person has worked more than x hours)


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

So then how is it cheaper to use contractors if thats the case? It's really just another way to strip away workers right and rip off the little people.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

More than likely not cheaper just far less headaches, and contractors get paid well, especially subcontracting, my brother who is an electrician is subying at the moment and getting $60/ hour, but he is aware that he can be laid off anytime.


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

Like I said it's just another way to strip away workers rights.


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## Killer Brew (14/7/16)

Brownsworthy said:


> So then how is it cheaper to use contractors if thats the case? It's really just another way to strip away workers right and rip off the little people.


They were already using contractors. Now they are using different contractors. Seriously what were these original guys getting paid if other companies can pay 1/3 of the wage and still be within the conditions of their EBA?


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## TheWiggman (14/7/16)

You might find the contractor has those conditions in their contract and they charge back to the company. 
Some clarity here - it's not just the 'company' trying to stooge and save as much as they can, contractor labour is sometimes the easy option. I worked in mining for years during the 2000's heyday and at that stage the name of the game was getting as much coal out of the ground as you can. Company associates in the city would look at it like a paper game - where can we get trucks? How do we get hold of tyres? How can we organise drivers etc. A contractor like Emeco was in a great position because they had trucks ready to mobilise with drivers waiting. They could literally almost charge whatever they wanted. The unions on site hated this mentality and anyone who worked for them, but at the end of the day it was more profit which was better for the company. One scenario. 
The other scenario is where a company decides to focus on their core business and outsource everything. A maintenance contractor would be better at undertaking maintenance than a manager who wants functioning plant. This happens a lot with cleaning companies. So send the feelers out, get some numbers back, and invariably argue why the more expensive company is a better choice (because at the end of the day the commercial department will pick the cheapest mob anyway). Contractor does it's thing. Then after the fixed term is up and the said contractor is comfortable charging heaps for all the overtime and training, the commercial department reviews the contract and goes "hey we could save a lot of money on this contract", and roundtable discussions result in a negotiation of rates more in line with what they think is fair. Hands clean, hundreds of thousands of dollars saved, and they go home thinking they've just justified their role. Where is the humanistic side in this justification? Because you can't put a number to it, it's left at the door.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Having your company force managed by an external party is the oldest trick in the book

How often do you see a company close down, and the workers get stiffed of entitlements because the external workforce manager all of a sudden is broke and has to be liquidated.

That happened in Grafton here with the local abattoir, asshole who owned it wanted to shut it down and all the employed where employed by a third party.

Old mate shut the meatworks, which meant the third party lost the contract and conveniently went broke and could not pay out the workers


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## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Brownsworthy said:


> Like I said it's just another way to strip away workers rights.


Contractors are workers too.


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## Camo6 (14/7/16)

Killer Brew said:


> They were already using contractors. Now they are using different contractors. Seriously what were these original guys getting paid if other companies can pay 1/3 of the wage and still be within the conditions of their EBA?


The minimum wage for a grade 1 electrical worker was $17.96 last time I checked.
Could you support a family on that. **** that shit.


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## Killer Brew (14/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> The minimum wage for a grade 1 electrical worker was $17.96 last time I checked.
> Could you support a family on that. **** that shit.


And where exactly does it say that is now what is being offered?


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## goomboogo (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> $62 million is what the union put out, take the 2 off that figure and it is more realistic,


Still, $60 million is a lot.


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Contractors are workers too.


You missed my point that your brother could be laid off at any time. Contractors are not 'employees' so that takes away some responsibility from the people who are contracting them.


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## Zorco (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Contractors are workers too.


Not according to accountants


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## klangers (14/7/16)

Another large brewery did a similar thing, but back in the 90's.

Then it was because the whole place was basically held by the balls by the union, and you had greasers (back when auto-greasers weren't standard issue) walking around squirting grease into every single grease nipple they could see, even ones not connected to anything. Numerous strikes, literal fights between electrical and mechanical trades and generally a whole heap of money was being paid for piss-poor work. The grease monkey earned double what a professional engineer did, and had their feet up half the time. That's not right, either.

I'd say there's more to it than what that article mentions. 

It's not an ideal situation at all, and I don't agree with it. I'm a firm believer in keeping core competencies in-house. If your company makes beer, then a core competency would certainly be having well-maintained equipment. This relies on happy, satisfied, hard-working maintenance and engineering staff. Currently, my experience across quite a number of different organisations in this industry shows that the trend is to outsource maintenance whilst swelling the size of the marketing and advertising departments. Wrong way around in my opinion, but hey, I'm biased.

EDIT: Also, the beer market is cyclical. Up to 50% more production happens in the lead up to peak (typically from November to Jan). Contract maintenance staff gives the brewery the option to match their maintenance staff to actual machinery run time, so they're not over-resourced in low season.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Not according to accountants


True that

a contractor is just another bill/invoice to an accountant


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## TheWiggman (14/7/16)

Engineering: save $100k. Undertake equipment analysis and determine greatest losses or simple opportunity. Investigate alternative solution. Justify IRR or payback period, revise project based in feedback and resubmit. Submit change management and gain approval. Implement concept, change related PM, drawings, work order frequency etc. and roll out to maintenance system. Wait 12 months to determine actual savings. 
HR: reduce employee numbers or pay rates. Immediate return. 
No wonder executives love it.


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## klangers (14/7/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Engineering: save $100k. Undertake equipment analysis and determine greatest losses or simple opportunity. Investigate alternative solution. Justify IRR or payback period, revise project based in feedback and resubmit. Submit change management and gain approval. Implement concept, change related PM, drawings, work order frequency etc. and roll out to maintenance system. Wait 12 months to determine actual savings.
> HR: reduce employee numbers or pay rates. Immediate return.
> No wonder executives love it.


Nail. Head.

Firing people is the easy way out.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

A contracting company employs the workers some will be on the books others will be subcontractors it is whatever suits the individual, as has been pointed out if a contract comes up for renewal and is tendered for and won by another company obviously the winning company will head hunt the previous contract holders employees.
I wouldn't believe a word the union says, and I am sure if a company was given back the right to hire and fire there would be no need for contract companies to be brought in to supply labour for routine maintenance work, if someones a slack arse get rid of them.


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

You can underline workers all you want but please enlighten me as to how you interpret that I said contractors aren't workers.


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## MastersBrewery (14/7/16)

On the maintenance cleaning side, not just manufacturing, but offices, court houses, shops etc. I've seen the trend of contractors then 'sub contracting' at well bellow what the macca's drive through chick is getting. The cleaning of these establishments doesn't change seasonally, the contracts as I see it, are used purely to distance the bussiness from underpaying workers. You'd ask why would people work for shit money like that. Some have no skills, some can no longer work in their chosen profession, others injured or disabled. A couple that I won't name(one a government contract) were paying $15 an hour gross, and wanted you to provide your own abn. Contracting seriously needs a governing body to root out this kind of exploitation.


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## arctic78 (14/7/16)

we should take a look at how the Germans do it. By law 50% of the board of the company has to be employees ( actual workers )
and they seem to be very happy on all sides . They also have a higher permanent employee base which has more benefits for all involved . They have very strong unions also Which if we did not have a lot of people I think would change their opinion on them.
We have a lot because of unions . look up what has been gained for workers rights. A lot of things people take for granted but were hard fought for by unions for better ( basic human ) rights.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Pretty simple to see why companies want " Contractors "

The Company say " We will pay you $x to do the job ", pls supply your ABN etc..

The contractor takes on the job for $x, even if it is below what it costs. It is the up to the Contractor to pay the award wage to the employee, and if it is yourself then you dont have a choice.

Contracting is a cheap way to save money and responsibility. The company is not responsible for what the Contractor pays its employee's and really doesnt give a shit either

Its no different to getting a sparky to wire in a new 15A outlet . You offer $100 to do the job, someone will take it on. Not your responsibility how much the sparky gets paid at the end of the day

Austar/Foxtell are a classic. They pay about $100 to contractors per dish install. They dont give a shit how long it takes you or what it costs you, you take the job on for $100 and thats all you get. This is why you always see adds for Austar/Foxtel installers, no one will do the jobs for that money, except the odd person. Electricians wont go anywhere near them. And then you get the associated problems of dodgy installs etc...


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## sp0rk (14/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Austar/Foxtell are a classic. They pay about $100 to contractors per dish install. They dont give a shit how long it takes you or what it costs you, you take the job on for $100 and thats all you get. This is why you always see adds for Austar/Foxtel installers, no one will do the jobs for that money, except the odd person. Electricians wont go anywhere near them. And then you get the associated problems of dodgy installs etc...


This is exactly what happened with the NBN installs
Brownfields rollout was contracted to various companies, who then subcontracted to various smaller companies or out of work sparkies and even home hifi installers
They were going around, quickly looking over the fibre drop, if there was a lot of work to pull/push the fibre through to your house, you just got shoved to the back of the queue for someone else to do
If it was a quick job, they'd bang it through as quick as possible then piss off, a lot of the time not even asking exactly where you wanted the network equipment installed.


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## pcmfisher (14/7/16)

It would be interesting to know how much these contractors were getting.
I can't imagine it would be $40k a year.

I suspect it would have been comparatively big.
Big money contracts don't last forever.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

pcmfisher said:


> It would be interesting to know how much these contractors were getting.


About the same as a train driver.....


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## Camo6 (14/7/16)

Killer Brew said:


> And where exactly does it say that is now what is being offered?


When did I say that was what they were getting?
However, according to reports, the offered rates were around award rate. Which would correlate with the figures they're claiming if the former sparkies were on eba rates. Which are still less than most white collar salaries. I can't be fucked with this debate. Let's just bring in thousands of 457's willing to work for award so we can drive labour rates down and make more money for our shareholders.


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## MastersBrewery (14/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> When did I say that was what they were getting?
> However, according to reports, the offered rates were around award rate. Which would correlate with the figures they're claiming if the former sparkies were on eba rates. Which are still less than most white collar salaries. I can't be fucked with this debate. Let's just bring in thousands of 457's willing to work for LESS THAN award so we can drive labour rates down and make more money for our shareholders.


 Fixed


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> When did I say that was what they were getting?
> However, according to reports, the offered rates were around award rate. Which would correlate with the figures they're claiming if the former sparkies were on eba rates. Which are still less than most white collar salaries. I can't be fucked with this debate. Let's just bring in thousands of 457's willing to work for award so we can drive labour rates down and make more money for our shareholders.


Ahmen to that brother


Cant have the shareholders going without can we


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## Killer Brew (14/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> When did I say that was what they were getting?
> However, according to reports, the offered rates were around award rate. Which would correlate with the figures they're claiming if the former sparkies were on eba rates. Which are still less than most white collar salaries. I can't be fucked with this debate. Let's just bring in thousands of 457's willing to work for award so we can drive labour rates down and make more money for our shareholders.


Fairly sure the average white collar isn't earning +$150k p.a. but yeah, hey, **** everyone who isn't wearing King Gee and down in the ditches. No need to get hysterical


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## SBOB (14/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its no different to getting a sparky to wire in a new 15A outlet . You offer $100 to do the job, someone will take it on. Not your responsibility how much the sparky gets paid at the end of the day


or, if you were chasing an electrician a few years ago when there were pretty major trade shortages.
If you absolutely had to have that power point installed, then I'm sure you would have paid the $500 that electrician said he would charge to get it done right?

But lets say you need one installed today, and there are plenty of electricians available. Would you still call up that same electrician as last time and pay him $500? despite the fact that the current perfectly acceptable rate for installed that power point is now $200?


(again, mostly devils advocate reasoning here)


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## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Cant have the shareholders going without can we


If we didn't have share holders we wouldn't have industry.


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

I'd get several quotes first and I wouldn't necessarily go with the cheapest. Of course price plays a part but I would go with who turns up when they say they will, presents well, has good communication skills etc.

By the way SBOB you play a great devils advocate like my dad use to say you need to look at both sides even if you don't agree it's always best to argue both to get the best outcome.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If we didn't have share holders we wouldn't have industry.


And you wont have an industry if the share holders keep screwing everyone


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## Killer Brew (14/7/16)

Capitalism has failed


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## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

Industry existed before the stock market.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Peoples got to work so people can eat, if the unions keep screwing industry the industry will go elsewhere.
I believe Nike has left China for Vietnam even the Chinese had priced themselves out of a job.


----------



## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

Yeah they priced themselves out of a job a whole handful of rice was just too much to pay half a handful is so much better for everyone involved isn't it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

It is for those who wear Nike, they can still buy their goods for a highly inflated price making a nice profit for shareholders.


----------



## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

How is it good for people who wear nike gear?

It is only good for the shareholders.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

If the share holders didn't get a return on their investment they would sell up their interests and go elsewhere, leaving Nike to close down its operation so its a win for the Nike fans and a win for the Vietnamese workers.


----------



## Brownsworthy (14/7/16)

Well I'm glad you support the exploitation of the unfortunate.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Peoples got to work so people can eat, if the unions keep screwing industry the industry will go elsewhere.


Well, in your next salary negotiation, Dont ask for holiday or sick pay. Dont ask for a 36hr week. Dont ask for a safe job site. Dont ask for any amenities. Dont ask for an award wage

Just let your employer screw you into the ground.





..anyway... I have to get the kids organised to get back down the coal mine. ..... they keep complaining about the long hours and getting paid nothing...ungrateful little shits


----------



## sp0rk (14/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> ..anyway... I have to get the kids organised to get back down the coal mine. ..... they keep complaining about the long hours and getting paid nothing...ungrateful little shits


I was wondering why I couldn't find a job in the mines, your young fellas took all the jobs!


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

sp0rk said:


> I was wondering why I couldn't find a job in the mines, your young fellas took all the jobs!


Thats it. Gota keep big business rich ...cant let those corporations get away with paying decent wages and entitlements....it just would be right, just or fair.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Brownsworthy said:


> Well I'm glad you support the exploitation of the unfortunate.


That's life

Can't believe you haven't got your kids into training to be a Train Driver stu short hours big salary, they could support half of Grafton on that money


----------



## SBOB (14/7/16)

Brownsworthy said:


> I'd get several quotes first and I wouldn't necessarily go with the cheapest. Of course price plays a part but I would go with who turns up when they say they will, presents well, has good communication skills etc.
> 
> By the way SBOB you play a great devils advocate like my dad use to say you need to look at both sides even if you don't agree it's always best to argue both to get the best outcome.


Thanks
And I do agree what CUB have done is a d*ck move, but stories like this are rarely reported on impartially

And who cares how much profit they made, unless you know their operating costs it could equate to a 1% margin.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> That's life
> 
> Can't believe you haven't got your kids into training to be a Train Driver stu short hours big salary, they could support half of Grafton on that money


I cant believe your not a train driver....


Anyway...I cant take them out of the mine pit....wouldnt be fair on the pit owner


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

No footloose and fancy-free at the moment.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> No footloose and fancy-free at the moment.


You must have exploited someone or some company to get to that point....

We cant have self made people walking around......


----------



## Dave70 (14/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well, in your next salary negotiation, Dont ask for *holiday or sick pay. Dont ask for a 36hr week. Dont ask for a safe job site. Dont ask for any amenities. Dont ask for an award wage*
> 
> Just let your employer screw you into the ground.
> 
> ...


Well now, one of my blokes gets all that, plus a ute, plus fuel and over double the award. Not to mention the half a dozen or so daily smoke breaks, then theres the days when he asks to leave early, or takes two half days this week off. As well as the regular as clockwork Monday / Friday sikies. Despite this, he's taken to pissing and moaning lately about basically everything and decided things like a simple stock take are beneath him, as evidenced by the fact he frizbeed the clip board to the other guy this morning accompanied by '**** that shit, you do it'. In a small workshop, that kind of attitude is toxic. 

I'd say the the proportion of exploitation and general cuntisim is pretty evenly matched between employers and employees, at least in anything but a third world sweat shop. 
Or an Apple / HP electronics contractor. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides


----------



## Camo6 (14/7/16)

Killer Brew said:


> Fairly sure the average white collar isn't earning +$150k p.a. but yeah, hey, **** everyone who isn't wearing King Gee and down in the ditches. No need to get hysterical


I'M NOT YELLING!

Seriously, $150k p.a? Not sure where you got those figures from but to be making that they'd likely be on penalty rates due to working shift work and for that I reckon they're entitled to it.
Please don't try to make me out to have a problem with anyone who doesn't work a trade. I love my white collar mates and their soft, warm hands.
Tradesman aren't the only ones to fight for better pay and conditions. Nurses now get recognised for their hard work and pretty sure teachers took a stand some years back. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil.


----------



## Vini2ton (14/7/16)

These CUB contractors would of taken company workers' jobs off them a while back. Now there's a bunch of 457's breathing down their neck. That fuckin Howard government has a lot to answer for in my opinion. There's a generation or 2 who just accept the shit the tories dish out to us. We used to look after each other and now it's becoming the law of the jungle. " I GOT MINE! ".


----------



## manticle (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If we didn't have share holders we wouldn't have industry.


Yes we would. It would be different, probably utterly so and not necessarily better but we would have production of goods and services because that's driven by social need, not shareholders.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

manticle said:


> Yes we would. It would be different, probably utterly so and not necessarily better but we would have production of goods and services because that's driven by social need, not shareholders.


So that would take care of 2% of the work force.


----------



## Bridges (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> So that would take care of 2% of the work force.


Yeah, the other 98% would be out of work??? Just enlighten me with the maths and reasoning behind this statement, and how Manticles sensible easy to follow argument above which makes lots of sense led you to this conclusion. 
Seriously. I'm totally fucken mystified how if there were no shareholders overnight we'd arrive at 2% employment.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> Well now, one of my blokes gets all that, plus a ute, plus fuel and over double the award. Not to mention the half a dozen or so daily smoke breaks, then theres the days when he asks to leave early, or takes two half days this week off. As well as the regular as clockwork Monday / Friday sikies. Despite this, he's taken to pissing and moaning lately about basically everything and decided things like a simple stock take are beneath him, as evidenced by the fact he frizbeed the clip board to the other guy this morning accompanied by '**** that shit, you do it'. In a small workshop, that kind of attitude is toxic.


We do I send my Resume' to....


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Goods and services, is hardly a driving force in any economy, and where would the money come to pay for it? No businesses, no taxes to draw from, where are we going to borrow money from? No one investing, the country would come to a standstill, no union petticoats to hide behind then, there would be no one working so no union.
With out capital input there is no industry.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Communism..FTW


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Goods and services, is hardly a driving force in any economy, and where would the money come to pay for it? No businesses, no taxes to draw from, where are we going to borrow money from? No one investing, the country would come to a standstill, no union petticoats to hide behind then, there would be no one working so no union.
> With out capital input there is no industry.


Mankind did Ok for 50,000 years before Capitalism..... Thats actaully fact

I can see your a Money man WEAL......you seem to think that unless there is money, economy, business the world would fall over...


----------



## Bridges (14/7/16)

Yeah you're right weal I'll bow to your superior world view, none of us needs clothes, food, shelter, healthcare, transport, fuel, all those industries would simply have to stop.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

We can't just print money, money has to come from investment, without investment there would be no money to earn. We could have all the resources under the sun but without the investors it would stay in the ground, investors must receive a reasonable amount of return off their investment, if for instance you had a million dollars to spare, the bank will give you 5% or invest in a company where you would receive only 4% you would leave it in the bank.
Capitalism started a long time ago, more than likely on the land when landowners who would have got the land by unscrupulous means needed people to work the land and that is where it began,


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Bridges said:


> Yeah you're right weal I'll bow to your superior world view, none of us needs clothes, food, shelter, healthcare, transport, fuel, all those industries would simply have to stop.


As I said where will the money come from, you tell me.


----------



## Zorco (14/7/16)

Money has become the mechanic for modern civilisation. Those points against WEAL are in contrast to your existence. Healthcare, technology. Products under trade which uses money. Money is a tool, a system. The game isn't that hard to play.

Capitalism....meh. Trade and a virtual object to manage resources and people. Good.

Step back from the edge a bit


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## Camo6 (14/7/16)

Bridges said:


> ... none of us needs clothes, food, shelter...


This is starting to sound like the 2016 Xmas Case Swap at Cocko's!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Money....Please tell me why money is so important to your world view


I know plenty of people who have not as much money as you and are perfectly happy...

I dont know about you, but I tend to batter a bit....the bonus is it doesnt cost me any money to do it


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> We can't just print money,


Yes you can...and they do

Although Pauline was not quit on the money with her statement


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## Zorco (14/7/16)

Edit: mobile refresh lag.. All good


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Stu it isn't about people who have little money, its what happens when there is 'no money' we have only got to look at Latin America on the verge of financial collapse Venezuela in particular, this is what happens when the money has no worth.
zorsoc is right money IS the mechanic of civilization, if we want to see true Capitalism, then we don't have to look any further than China, see what pension schemes and medical cover the ordinary man on the street gets there.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Stu it isn't about people who have little money,


Actually, it is....

But your a bit to elitist to worry about those that have no money


----------



## Dave70 (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> *We can't just print money,* money has to come from investment, without investment there would be no money to earn. We could have all the resources under the sun but without the investors it would stay in the ground, investors must receive a reasonable amount of return off their investment, if for instance you had a million dollars to spare, the bank will give you 5% or invest in a company where you would receive only 4% you would leave it in the bank.
> Capitalism started a long time ago, more than likely on the land when landowners who would have got the land by unscrupulous means needed people to work the land and that is where it began,


Sure you can. Just ask anybody from the _Weimar Republic _what a knees up hyperinflation was for them back in good old 1923.


----------



## Dave70 (14/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> We do I send my *Resume'* to....


Speaks French.
Sorry, overqualified.


----------



## Zorco (14/7/16)

I think we all Probably need to select our own preferred definition of 'rich'.

I don't need presents to live in the present with presence.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> Sure you can. Just ask anybody from the _Weimar Republic _what a knees up hyperinflation was for them back in good old 1923.


Was that when the 'Lets have a party party' was in government.


----------



## Dave70 (14/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Was that when the 'Lets have a party party' was in government.


Yep.

More Boh Pills and burlesque midgets than you could poke a _Pickelhaube_ at..


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> Speaks French.
> Sorry, overqualified.


Donc, dit le jeune poussin RH, qui est en voyage de puissance . son **** off . Je peux au moins brasser une bière ambre qui serait plus beau que tout ensemble de titts


----------



## Killer Brew (14/7/16)

Bridges said:


> Yeah you're right weal I'll bow to your superior world view, none of us needs clothes, food, shelter, healthcare, transport, fuel, all those industries would simply have to stop.


Do we exist in a vaccuum? With no investment in our country then we don't produce here ....does the demand just disappear? No, just means more imports...no employment there. You going to run a fully employed service based economy?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

Killer Brew said:


> \. You going to run a fully employed service based economy?


Based in the Phillipiens


----------



## Blind Dog (14/7/16)

Bridges said:


> Why can't a massive company employ staff? On a fair wage? Why must they contract shit like this out? Yeah I know it's all about the bottom line for the bloke taking home $62 million a year. But FFS $62 mill a year! Yet he's happily knifing people probably earning 0.1% of what he takes home each year. How do people like that sleep. It's just flat out cuntery.


Not sure if it's deliberate mistakes or not in the reporting, but the poor sausage only gets $6m a year, and gets less less than half of that in actual cash, is the CEO of SABMiller not CUB, has nothing to do with the decision taken here and his estimated $62m is likely to be his payout as he's just lost his job.

It's still flat out cuntery* though.

(*TM Bridges, 2016)


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

so according to WEAL. he earns the same as a train driver


----------



## Blind Dog (14/7/16)

Well maybe a little less


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/16)

WEAL and train drivers are at the top Echelon


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Mankind did Ok for 50,000 years before Capitalism..... Thats actaully fact


 The capitalists would have been running the slave markets, wouldn't have had to pay them, minimal food to live on and a cage to live in, then every Friday you could hang the slackest worker upside down and given him a flogging.


----------



## Dave70 (15/7/16)

On the up side, there were plenty of farmers markets. Who doesn't love a farmers market?


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/7/16)

You forgot to mention Weal 50,000 years ago without the capitalists, it should be pointed out there was no welfare for the sick lame and lazy, no free hospital, no pensions, and subsidised housing so there is a lot to thank the capitalists for.


----------



## yankinoz (15/7/16)

Next CUB will outsource to a country that pays a banana per hour and they'll run an ad campaign on how they make "Australia's beers."


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## Dave70 (15/7/16)

malt & barley blues said:


> You forgot to mention Weal 50,000 years ago without the capitalists, it should be pointed out there was no welfare for the sick lame and lazy, no free hospital, no pensions, and subsidised housing so there is a lot to thank the capitalists for.


Most of those services would become redundant anyway in a civilization where you were dead at 25.


----------



## Zorco (15/7/16)

And there was no beer....


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## Dave70 (15/7/16)

They died form apathy.


----------



## Blind Dog (15/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> And there was no beer....


Don't be silly, Beer is the cosmic life force - 'In the Beer God created the heavens and earth...'.


----------



## Brownsworthy (15/7/16)

Blind Dog said:


> Don't be silly, Beer is the cosmic life force - 'In the Beer God created the heavens and earth...'.


Some say the beer god created the heavens and earth in 7 days I prefer to think it was 14 with the last few days being at 0°C.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/16)

God was a K&K brewer


----------



## Brownsworthy (15/7/16)

He had a WW.


----------



## Dave70 (15/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> God was a K&K brewer


How did he take OG/FG readings before gravity?


----------



## sp0rk (15/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> How did he take OG/FG readings before gravity?


God worked in Brix


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> How did he take OG/FG readings before gravity?


He is God....stop asking stupid questions


----------



## Mardoo (15/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> How did he take OG/FG readings before gravity?


He used his noodly appendage.


----------



## Dave70 (15/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> He is God....stop asking stupid questions


I cant. Thats how he made me.


----------



## Zorco (15/7/16)

God,

Thank you for making Dave. Good work on that one!


----------



## WarmerBeer (15/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> God,
> 
> Thank you for making DaveBeer. Good work on that one!


FTFY


----------



## goomboogo (15/7/16)

malt & barley blues said:


> You forgot to mention Weal 50,000 years ago without the capitalists, it should be pointed out there was no welfare for the sick lame and lazy, no free hospital, no pensions, and subsidised housing so there is a lot to thank the capitalists for.


Yes, the reason for the absence of hospitals, pensions and negative gearing on residential property during the upper paleolithic era was the shortage of capitalists. If we fast-forward over 40 000 years to the beginnings of capitalism and it's subsequent forms, you won't find links between the delivery of the social services you listed and capitalists. Which forms of capitalism were you referring to in your post?


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> Which forms of capitalism were you referring to in your post?


That would be the Benevolent Capitalist Society.


----------



## goomboogo (15/7/16)

A very recent dev



malt & barley blues said:


> That would be the Benevolent Capitalist Society.


A very recent development and still more of an idea than a practice in the broad scheme of things. It has nothing to do with the position you took in your original post.


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/7/16)

What position would that be?


----------



## Vini2ton (15/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> God was a K&K brewer


Was? He still is. I saw him in Big W today.


----------



## goomboogo (15/7/16)

malt & barley blues said:


> What position would that be?


This one.



malt & barley blues said:


> it should be pointed out there was no welfare for the sick lame and lazy, no free hospital, no pensions, and subsidised housing so there is a lot to thank the capitalists for.


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/7/16)

And, there was no welfare state until Sir William Beveridge got the ball rolling so whats your point, don't tell me you think its thanks to your socialist party.


----------



## TheWiggman (15/7/16)

A+ thread gents, haven't read one as entertaining as this for a while. Shame I can't give it 5 stars on the mobile.


----------



## manticle (15/7/16)

malt & barley blues said:


> And, there was no welfare state until Sir William Beveridge got the ball rolling so whats your point, don't tell me you think its thanks to your socialist party.


Trickle down the pants party.


----------



## rude (15/7/16)

malt & barley blues said:


> And, there was no welfare state until Sir William Beveridge got the ball rolling so whats your point, don't tell me you think its thanks to your socialist party.


Dirty socialists we would be better off with you're party & no one else to question you're greedy rights

After all its you're right to manage no matter what is'nt it


----------



## arctic78 (15/7/16)

so glad slaves ( workers) decided to say F%#K you Master and give me some of what you've got as without us you have squat.

May have had a few :drinks: But I say workers are as, IF NOT MORE, important than the slave owner who wants ALL the profit for him/her self . they have no product without the worker

There has to be an equilibrium between the two.

God is the biggest slave owner of us all :lol:

OOPS.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (16/7/16)

"It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but ourselves"

If there were no capitalists to keep the masses gainfully employed, that would mean we wouldn't have to pay tax. 
If we didn't make tax contributions then the first things to go would be welfare, then the hospitals and schools. :huh:
Whatever government funding could be scraped together would be going towards the police and military forces. h34r:

So thank goodness (not God) there are people willing to invest their own hard earned money into industry to keep those of us who want to work, in a job.


----------



## goomboogo (16/7/16)

malt & barley blues said:


> And, there was no welfare state until Sir William Beveridge got the ball rolling so whats your point, don't tell me you think its thanks to your socialist party.


I don't know what you refer to as my socialist party. Unlike some, my views aren't clouded by an unwavering allegiance to a particular political party. My views are clouded by many things but not by the need to parrot the drivel of one political party.

Although William Beveridge was pivotal in the direction taken in Britain after WWII, social services pre-date Beveridge by centuries. You need to realise that there is a world outside of Britain. Australia would be well served by a government who subscribed to concepts put forward by William Beveridge more than 70 years ago. His report on Full Employment encompasses an idea that has been eschewed by governments in the last 50 years. It is to our detriment that the Australian polity of 2016 is bereft of the integrity displayed by William Beveridge.


----------



## goomboogo (16/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If there were no capitalists to keep the masses gainfully employed, that would mean we wouldn't have to pay tax.
> If we didn't make tax contributions then the first things to go would be welfare, then the hospitals and schools. :huh:


Can you outline the process in the National Accounts that indicate the transfer of taxation revenue to accounts utilised for government spending?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (16/7/16)

Getting back on topic, does anyone really believe a representative of CUB would go to the maintenance staff and say heres your cab charges go to see your new employer and by the way you have a 65% pay cut.
And they were only working 12 hours a day 7 days a week just so others could have a cold beer after work, wasn't that nice of them
"Those 50 workers ... have been working seven days a week, night and day, so the average punter out there can have a nice cold beer after a hard day's work, that's the way it should be," he said.
"Four weeks ago, [CUB] comes out and says you are all sacked on the spot – with all the arrogance of the big end of town – and said here's your cab charges, go to your new boss, it's a 65 per cent wage decrease."


----------



## madpierre06 (16/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> "It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but ourselves"
> 
> If there were no capitalists to keep the masses gainfully employed, that would mean we wouldn't have to pay tax.
> If we didn't make tax contributions then the first things to go would be welfare, then the hospitals and schools. :huh:
> ...


Trouble is WEAL, they are not interested in keeping those of us who want to work in jobs. They are only interested in thosae who will accept what they are willing to dole out , as little as possible, and be able to hire and fire at will when it suits THEM. That is not a job. A job is something which allows you to buy a car, a house, take family on a holiday, save a few quid, provide some security for your family. 38/40 hours a week. Fulltime. And there is less and less of those around.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (16/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> Can you outline the process in the National Accounts that indicate the transfer of taxation revenue to accounts utilised for government spending?


You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work that out, if as stated there were almost zilch tax revenue coming in, there would be a poofteenth of zilch being set aside for government spending.


----------



## goomboogo (16/7/16)

WEAL, you are falling for one of the great misconceptions of modern economics. The reason you can't answer the question is because the question does not have an answer. The reason an answer doesn't exist is because taxation does not fund the spending of the federal government in Australia. Another falsehood is that the Australian government borrows to fund it's spending desires. To think this, is to misunderstand the nature and manner in which the bond market operates.

Please don't perpetuate the untrue notion that the federal budget (incorrectly named) is analogous to the budgets of households, businesses, state governments or local governments. People only make these comparisons when they have little understanding of the monetary system under which the national government operates in 2016. The year is not 1970.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/7/16)

Its all the fault of the Unions


----------



## Zorco (16/7/16)

fark yeah, words and meaning and stuff


----------



## pcmfisher (16/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> I don't know what you refer to as my socialist party. Unlike some, my views aren't clouded by an unwavering allegiance to a particular political party. My views are clouded by many things but not by the need to parrot the drivel of one political party.
> 
> Although William Beveridge was pivotal in the direction taken in Britain after WWII, social services pre-date Beveridge by centuries. You need to realise that there is a world outside of Britain. Australia would be well served by a government who subscribed to concepts put forward by William Beveridge more than 70 years ago. His report on Full Employment encompasses an idea that has been eschewed by governments in the last 50 years. It is to our detriment that the Australian polity of 2016 is bereft of the integrity displayed by William Beveridge.


Did William Beveridge have anything to say about the rationing the UK had until 1954?


----------



## goomboogo (16/7/16)

pcmfisher said:


> Did William Beveridge have anything to say about the rationing the UK had until 1954?


Are you asking whether he had a view or whether he played a part in the rationing continuing for so long past the conclusion of the war? He had no say in the decision to prolong rationing into the 1950's. The decision to do so was largely due to an ideological drive of the labour party rather than the service of any practical purpose.


----------



## Camo6 (16/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Getting back on topic, does anyone really believe a representative of CUB would go to the maintenance staff and say heres your cab charges go to see your new employer and by the way you have a 65% pay cut.
> And they were only working 12 hours a day 7 days a week just so others could have a cold beer after work, wasn't that nice of them
> "Those 50 workers ... have been working seven days a week, night and day, so the average punter out there can have a nice cold beer after a hard day's work, that's the way it should be," he said.
> "Four weeks ago, [CUB] comes out and says you are all sacked on the spot – with all the arrogance of the big end of town – and said here's your cab charges, go to your new boss, it's a 65 per cent wage decrease."



I may not believe all that's written in such articles but I believe what's written is written well. It's an inflammatory article aimed at inciting anger, resentment and retaliation from the working class. That's how a Union works. Strength in numbers, one in all in, yada yada. Without unity of the masses we'd be little more than serfs. These articles don't need to be accurate, they just need to get a point across.

In saying that, I bet _they _(the maintenance staff) would have been working seven days a week, day and night. Not at the same time but the article doesn't claim that. :lol: It also wouldn't surprise me if a CUB HR officer conducted their dismissals. I only know these things because I'm married to a Harbinger of Doom, Grim Reaper, HR officer.These meetings have to be coordinated carefully to avoid repercussions from Fairwork and it's common practice to walk them out then and there to avoid reprisals from disgruntled staff (imagine if someone filled thousands of bottles of Carlton Draught with mouse shit and cat's piss :unsure: ) 

What can't be denied is that CUB has accepted a contract that has dramatically reduced the wages of skilled labourers and denied their replacements of the hard won rights many fought hard to gain. To vindicate CUB/SabMiller/Tyrannical Beer Despot of any unfair action is laughable. Let's be honest. The only reason they're still making the beer in Australia is because it would cause an uproar and drop in sales if it came from anywhere else. It wouldn't be the first time someone's used cheap overseas labour for financial gain.


----------



## Vini2ton (16/7/16)

Capitalists never invest their "hard-earned" in ventures. They use some other poor schmuck's money. If it fails they run away to Majorca. Like all these house invasions down here in Melbourne. Someone's got to pay for them and guess who? Us that pay insurance premiums. These multinational companies are taking the whole world for suckers and their lackeys (the tories) are their political arm. It doesn't have to be this way.


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## manticle (16/7/16)

My boss invests, long term but he has no shareholders to answer to and is a rare example of how to think long term and what capitalism ideals could be.
Great approach, unfortunately rare.

Those who have, generally hold on tight. That would be ok if they didn't demand so much from everyone else.


----------



## nosco (16/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> (imagine if someone filled thousands of bottles of Carlton Draught.................and cat's piss :unsure: )


But didn't they.........Never mind.

I've been drinking a lot of Invalid Stout lately. Please don't hate me.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/7/16)

manticle said:


> My boss invests, long term but he has no shareholders to answer to and is a rare example of how to think long term and what capitalism ideals could be.
> Great approach, unfortunately rare.
> 
> Those who have, generally hold on tight. That would be ok if they dodn't demand so much from everyone else.


I have a similar boss

The company he ( and his wife, sister and BIL ) could have easly said "**** it , lets take the money and run " The owners are in their 50-60's


Instead, I actually get to work for an employer who has genuine empathy for us, the worker. Of course you dont get a free ride, but they always appreciate that bit extra you do, and are very flexible and understanding. I n some ways they have become my friends.

But... I have also had the exact opposite..

And its always the big guys who dont give 2 fucks


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/7/16)

nosco said:


> But didn't they.........Never mind.
> 
> I've been drinking a lot of Invalid Stout lately. Please don't hate me.


I just got back from the pub after drinking Coopers IPA on tap all afternoon.... $5.60 and 6%..... yeeeh har bitches... **** I am pissed


----------



## manticle (16/7/16)

Reptilian overlords will **** all of us up anyway so **** it.

Might have a chance if the benevolent dolphin beings get a guernsey.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/7/16)

We need more benevolent dictators


----------



## warra48 (16/7/16)

I'm not taking sides, nor defending anyone from either side in this debate / issue.

Let's be clear, it's not only the employers who are part of the capitalist system. Contrary to what most people will believe, the unions/workers are actually also part of the capitalist system. It's simply a fight between business and the workers about distribution of the proceeds of capitalism, although it's not necessarily an equal fight.

If it wasn't so, we'd still live and work as serfs or slaves for our overlords in a pre-capitalist society.


----------



## Camo6 (16/7/16)

manticle said:


> Reptilian overlords will **** all of us up anyway so **** it.
> 
> Might have a chance if the benvolent dolphin beings get a guernsey.





Ducatiboy stu said:


> We need more benevolent dictators



Manticle spells a word wrong. Stu spells the same word right.

Don't try to tell me the reptilians haven't infiltrated our society.


----------



## spog (16/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I just got back from the pub after drinking Coopers IPA on tap all afternoon.... $5.60 and 6%..... yeeeh har bitches... **** I am pissed


Onya!


----------



## manticle (16/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Manticle spells a word wrong. Stu spells the same word right.
> 
> Don't try to tell me the reptilians haven't infiltrated our society.


100% absolute proof.


----------



## Camo6 (16/7/16)

manticle said:


> 100% absolute proof.






You only want me to think that!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Manticle spells a word wrong. Stu spells the same word right.
> 
> Don't try to tell me the reptilians haven't infiltrated our society.


Reptilians cant spell


----------



## warra48 (17/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Reptilians cant spell


Should read: Reptilians can't spell.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/7/16)

warra48 said:


> Should read: Reptilians can't spell.


Grammar..... meh


----------



## Florian (17/7/16)

warra48 said:


> Should read: Reptilians can't spell.


What are reptilians?


----------



## wynnum1 (17/7/16)

Florian said:


> What are reptilians?


 The idea of *reptilians* on Earth was popularized by David Icke, a *conspiracy* theorist who claims shape-shifting *reptilian* aliens control Earth by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate human societies.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/7/16)

Who would have thought we could flush out the reptilians with a simple spelling test


----------



## Florian (17/7/16)

wynnum1 said:


> The idea of *reptilians* on Earth was popularized by David Icke, a *conspiracy* theorist who claims shape-shifting *reptilian* aliens control Earth by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate human societies.


Yes, I knew that, that wasn't the question. Never mind.


----------



## warra48 (17/7/16)

:chug: :drinks: :kooi: :beerbang:


----------



## Florian (17/7/16)

Oh no, Warra is being a bad sport again, using his secret ninja editing rights to cover up his errors. I find that a bit pathetic, but up to you mate.


----------



## Camo6 (17/7/16)

Florian said:


> Yes, I knew that, that wasn't the question. Never mind.



Best not to question the power of the Overlords. Even when they edit your own posts without any notification...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/7/16)

So the reptilians have taken over AHB.....


----------



## Camo6 (17/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So the reptilians have taken over AHB.....


Far simpler to believe than a moderator of Dutch descent being wrong!


----------



## WarmerBeer (17/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Best not to question the power of the Overlords. Even when they edit your own posts without any notification...


That sounds like something a *Reptilian* would say...


----------



## spog (17/7/16)

WarmerBeer said:


> That sounds like something a *Reptilian* would say...


I'm glad you dont have a speech impediment .


----------



## goomboogo (18/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Best not to question the power of the Overlords. Even when they edit your own posts without any notification...


It could be time to:


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> WEAL, you are falling for one of the great misconceptions of modern economics. The reason you can't answer the question is because the question does not have an answer. The reason an answer doesn't exist is because taxation does not fund the spending of the federal government in Australia. Another falsehood is that the Australian government borrows to fund it's spending desires. To think this, is to misunderstand the nature and manner in which the bond market operates.
> 
> Please don't perpetuate the untrue notion that the federal budget (incorrectly named) is analogous to the budgets of households, businesses, state governments or local governments. People only make these comparisons when they have little understanding of the monetary system under which the national government operates in 2016. The year is not 1970.


If the government expects to raise money, it comes from taxes, can you show me where you think a budget forecast has come from anywhere else other than the usual suspects of various taxes and interest rates.


----------



## arctic78 (18/7/16)

So the TV serries V was based on real beliefs ????


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/16)

arctic78 said:


> So the TV serries V was based on real beliefs ????


What makes you think that ?


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/16)

arctic78 said:


> So the TV serries V was based on real beliefs ????


Pretty much. Its like scientology, just less lizards.


----------



## goomboogo (18/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If the government expects to raise money, it comes from taxes, can you show me where you think a budget forecast has come from anywhere else other than the usual suspects of various taxes and interest rates.


When the federal government incorrectly labels it's fiscal statements as budget papers, it is easy to see why confusion reigns regarding matters of monetary systems and macroeconomics. The reality is counter-intuitive. The federal government does not tax then spend. It spends then taxes. The budget forecast you refer to is nothing of the sort. It is a fiscal outlook within a stock-flow consistent macroeconomic accounting structure.

There is a mountain of literature on macroeconomics and the monetary system under which we operate in this country. The fact our politicians and most economists have little understanding of the system is a major problem. During a conversation, Wayne Swan was a asked a few basic questions about these matters. He demonstrated an almost complete misunderstanding of the system and he was the federal treasurer at the time. All federal treasurers since have displayed the same lack of understanding. Some will argue that it doesn't serve their purposes to understand the system.

I will PM a copy of a brief book that outlines seven of the most prevalent misconceptions in the area of macroeconomics and monetary systems. It is by no means comprehensive but is a lucid account of why the misunderstanding prevails.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If the government expects to raise money, it comes from taxes, can you show me where you think a budget forecast has come from anywhere else other than the usual suspects of various taxes and interest rates.


Governments also charge "fee for service"...rego fees, public transport fares, etc..

Not all the money the Government spends comes from tax's in the classic sense


----------



## manticle (18/7/16)

arctic78 said:


> So the TV serries V was based on real beliefs ????


V, the matrix and the dark crystal were all documentaries.


----------



## arctic78 (18/7/16)

That's what I thought :lol: :lol:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/16)

manticle said:


> V, the matrix and the dark crystal were all documentaries.


You forgot Home & Away... Although thats probably more a documentry


----------



## niftinev (18/7/16)

I luv CUB for helping to guide me into the realm of home brewing and not buy their products


----------



## Zorco (18/7/16)

Thanks XXXX


----------



## Vini2ton (18/7/16)

You don't have to flush because replicas can't smell.


----------



## spog (18/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Governments also charge "fee for service"...rego fees, public transport fares, etc..
> 
> Not all the money the Government spends comes from tax's in the classic sense


Come to South Australia,our gov calls them levees...it gives us all a nice warm fuzzy feeling ,pigs arse!


----------



## Bridges (18/7/16)




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## Dave70 (18/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You forgot Home & Away... Although thats probably more a documentry


Sea Patrol. 
Also a documentary. Apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJ7j86MyWw


----------



## spog (18/7/16)

Sarah Hanson Young is she Boris Johnsons sister ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> When the federal government incorrectly labels it's fiscal statements as budget papers, it is easy to see why confusion reigns regarding matters of monetary systems and macroeconomics. The reality is counter-intuitive. The federal government does not tax then spend. It spends then taxes. The budget forecast you refer to is nothing of the sort. It is a fiscal outlook within a stock-flow consistent macroeconomic accounting structure.
> 
> There is a mountain of literature on macroeconomics and the monetary system under which we operate in this country. The fact our politicians and most economists have little understanding of the system is a major problem. During a conversation, Wayne Swan was a asked a few basic questions about these matters. He demonstrated an almost complete misunderstanding of the system and he was the federal treasurer at the time. All federal treasurers since have displayed the same lack of understanding. Some will argue that it doesn't serve their purposes to understand the system.
> 
> I will PM a copy of a brief book that outlines seven of the most prevalent misconceptions in the area of macroeconomics and monetary systems. It is by no means comprehensive but is a lucid account of why the misunderstanding prevails.


There are lots of fancy names for fixing economies, no matter what method is used to appear that money has been obtained with fancy footwork from the RBA the banks, at the end of the day the time will always come to pay the piper, as is happening in Venezuela at the moment, 17 years of a socialist government and inflation running away at 750%, 1 weeks worth of food to last 1 month.
On our doorstep we have the Asian nations just waiting for the opportunity to show how cheap their labor is compared to Australia, all the manufacturing that we have lost recently, all gone off shore to one of our surrounding neighbors.
I took a trip to Moorabbin which a few short years ago was a hub of both small and large factories all there is there now is importers for the $2 Shops (and we all know how fastidious the Chinese are with their book work and keeping their taxes up to date  ) and the take away food shops most of all the manufacturing has gone.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/16)

spog said:


> Come to South Australia,our gov calls them levees...it gives us all a nice warm fuzzy feeling ,pigs arse!


Yes, but they can get away from calling it a tax..

Tax is election suicide

Politics is as bad as Capitalism...or maybe they are the same....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are lots of fancy names for fixing economies Really...I never..., no matter what method is used to appear that money has been obtained with fancy footwork from the RBA the banks that would be accounting, at the end of the day the time will always come to pay the piper, as is happening in Venezuela at the moment, 17 years of a socialist dont forget the corruption ..etc...happens f 1st world governments as well government and inflation running away at 750%, 1 weeks worth of food to last 1 month.
> On our doorstep we have the Asian nations just waiting for the opportunity to show how cheap their labor is compared to Australia, all the manufacturing that we have lost recently, all gone off shore to one of our surrounding neighbors.Which is interesting as that was a result of the big manufacturing companies looking for cheap, almost government subsidiesed work force. Asia is getting expensive now, they are looking at Africa as the next step, there willing. The US has pulled out of Mexico for the same reason. The worked wanted a fair deal
> I took a trip to Moorabbin which a few short years ago was a hub of both small and large factories all there is there now is importers for the $2 Shops Pretty cause a lot of them where old in old building with old infrastructure. Was cheaper to relocate and build something 10x better (and we all know how fastidious the Chinese are with their book work and keeping their taxes up to date  ) and the take away food shops most of all the manufacturing has gone. True. but a lot pf that is because of mechanisation, robotics, CNC machinery. Stuff is still being made, but by machine, not man


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## Zorco (18/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> > There are lots of fancy names for fixing economies Really...I never..., no matter what method is used to appear that money has been obtained with fancy footwork from the RBA the banks that would be accounting, at the end of the day the time will always come to pay the piper, as is happening in Venezuela at the moment, 17 years of a socialist dont forget the corruption ..etc...happens f 1st world governments as well government and inflation running away at 750%, 1 weeks worth of food to last 1 month.
> > On our doorstep we have the Asian nations just waiting for the opportunity to show how cheap their labor is compared to Australia, all the manufacturing that we have lost recently, all gone off shore to one of our surrounding neighbors.Which is interesting as that was a result of the big manufacturing companies looking for cheap, almost government subsidiesed work force. Asia is getting expensive now, they are looking at Africa as the next step, there willing. The US has pulled out of Mexico for the same reason. The worked wanted a fair deal
> > I took a trip to Moorabbin which a few short years ago was a hub of both small and large factories all there is there now is importers for the $2 Shops Pretty cause a lot of them where old in old building with old infrastructure. Was cheaper to relocate and build something 10x better (and we all know how fastidious the Chinese are with their book work and keeping their taxes up to date  ) and the take away food shops most of all the manufacturing has gone. True. but a lot pf that is because of mechanisation, robotics, CNC machinery. Stuff is still being made, but by machine, not man


What, now you're sharing the same post too.....

You blokes should share a pub for 6 hours - you'd walk away as brothers!


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> What, now you're sharing the same post too.....
> 
> You blokes should share a pub for 6 hours - you'd walk away as brothers!


But he would still be WEAL in my eyes


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## goomboogo (18/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are lots of fancy names for fixing economies, no matter what method is used to appear that money has been obtained with fancy footwork from the RBA the banks, at the end of the day the time will always come to pay the piper, as is happening in Venezuela at the moment, 17 years of a socialist government and inflation running away at 750%, 1 weeks worth of food to last 1 month


It has nothing to do with fancy names or imaginary methods. The existing accounting process is in place whether you like it or not. It is in place whether you understand it or not.

Venezuela is a poor example to use when talking about Australia. Enlighten us on the factors that contributed to economic circumstances that confront Venezuela. What's your view on the role of real resource constraint in the Venezuelan economy? How do you think Australia compares to Venezuela in terms of the allocation and use of real resources? Do you believe Venezuela's foreign denominated debt is somehow comparable to the Australian situation? In your view, did the currency peg and the manner in which the Venezuelan government managed the currency play a role in the slide of the nation's economy?


----------



## Roosterboy (18/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are lots of fancy names for fixing economies, no matter what method is used to appear that money has been obtained with fancy footwork from the RBA the banks, at the end of the day the time will always come to pay the piper, as is happening in Venezuela at the moment, 17 years of a socialist government and inflation running away at 750%, 1 weeks worth of food to last 1 month.
> On our doorstep we have the Asian nations just waiting for the opportunity to show how cheap their labor is compared to Australia, all the manufacturing that we have lost recently, all gone off shore to one of our surrounding neighbors.
> I took a trip to Moorabbin which a few short years ago was a hub of both small and large factories all there is there now is importers for the $2 Shops (and we all know how fastidious the Chinese are with their book work and keeping their taxes up to date  ) and the take away food shops most of all the manufacturing has gone.


Wide eyed and legless, learn how to pull your head in and accept that there are people in this world that know things you don't and like the print
media , having an opinion, that you are entitled to have , doesn't mean what you say is true or accurate .


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## Zorco (18/7/16)

But that won't help Roosterboy; point him and us to the sources of truth and accuracy you know of.

It is terrible to ever just believe others know the truth about something. Truth needs to be found out for yourself sometimes.


----------



## manticle (18/7/16)

When their eyes become slits, you will know if you are awake.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (19/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> Venezuela is a poor example to use when talking about Australia. Enlighten us on the factors that contributed to economic circumstances that confront Venezuela. What's your view on the role of real resource constraint in the Venezuelan economy? How do you think Australia compares to Venezuela in terms of the allocation and use of real resources? Do you believe Venezuela's foreign denominated debt is somehow comparable to the Australian situation? In your view, did the currency peg and the manner in which the Venezuelan government managed the currency play a role in the slide of the nation's economy?


Venezuela has a far smaller debt than us but the contributing factor is, as you pointed out earlier governments spend the money before they get what they expect to be getting, so the money has been spent and lo and behold, the oil price has plummeted so all the money that was borrowed has to be paid back and now they find they can't. As for a comparison to Australia if the hypothetical theory of investors pulling the money out of Australia because the labor market was just too high and our government (doesn't matter which party) would still have the debt to pay back without resources to draw from.


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## goomboogo (19/7/16)

My point is not that governments spend the money first and then raise revenue later to pay for the spending (as you say in the above post). My point is, taxation revenue is never the source of federal government spending. In an accounting sense, taxation is flushed from the system once it is received. So, it doesn't matter whether resource prices fall. This has no bearing whatsoever on Australia's ability to service it's bond commitments. This is why Venezuela is a poor comparison. They have billions of dollars of debt in currencies other than their own. Unlike debt denominated in a country's own currency (Australia), this has to be serviced by obtaining that foreign currency. In Venezuela's case, they have to sell whatever they can in order to get that foreign currency. This is why the oil price and production issues impact on Venezuela's ability to pay that particular debt. Australia doesn't run the same risk because it does not borrow money in foreign denominations.

Australia's floating exchange rate also makes comparisons to Venezuela's economy difficult. Venezuela has a very convoluted fixed exchange rate system. They have managed their currency so poorly that a situation was created where people could make more money from currency exchange than from manufacturing or agriculture. This was only one of the mechanisms that set the country down the path to being a poor producer and ultimately, a near worthless currency and an inability to provide the population with adequate goods and services.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (19/7/16)

But don't you think that without a capitalist driven economy Australia could find itself in the same situation? 
Venezuela has had 17 years of Socialist government and all they have now is a huge debt, and what appears to be no choice of fixing it.


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## Dave70 (19/7/16)

Careful WEAL. When the revolution comes, we'll be fucked.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> But don't you think that without a capitalist driven economy Australia could find itself in the same situation?
> Venezuela has had 17 years of Socialist government and all they have now is a huge debt, and what appears to be no choice of fixing it.


Its not that it is a "Socialist Governement", Its a case of a badly run government. Wouldnt matter what sort of government you have if it is poorly run


----------



## sp0rk (19/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> Careful WEAL. When the revolution comes, we'll be fucked.


And all your countrymen who didn't agree with you or happened to be cossacks...


----------



## goomboogo (19/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> But don't you think that without a capitalist driven economy Australia could find itself in the same situation?


I haven't heard of anyone seriously advocating such a change. There is a big difference between a government fully controlling the production and distribution of goods and services and the idea that a federal government has the ability to utilise fiscal policy for the betterment of the population. This is still carried out within a capitalist structure. One of the great con-jobs pulled off by monetarist economists has been to convince people that governments are subservient to whatever a globalised financial system throws at them.


----------



## MastersBrewery (19/7/16)

goomboogo said:


> I haven't heard of anyone seriously advocating such a change. There is a big difference between a government fully controlling the production and distribution of goods and services and the idea that a federal government has the ability to utilise fiscal policy for the betterment of the population. This is still carried out within a capitalist structure. One of the great con-jobs pulled off by monetarist economists has been to convince people that governments are subservient to whatever a globalised financial system throws at them.


and hence the larger infrastructure works requied in nearly every capital city have been avoided, and by this I mean 20 year projects, such as the VFT ( very fast train). Because the project won't finish in a government term it doesn't get done, all because at the next election the opposition points out a great big deficit. Note we have already spent billions on feasability studies and such. It's taken 20 years to turn soil on Syney's second airport, by the time it's complete we'll probably need a third. What we need from government is long term vision, not short term reelection.


----------



## Bridges (19/7/16)

Quoting myself from page 1 of this now epic.




"I don't care how you paint this, it's a shit act by a company that can and should look after it's workforce."


That is still the bottom line for me. Yeah trim the dead wood if required but, if you want employees who will work hard and look after your business it needs to be a two way street. I don't see where the "oh its just the capitalist system" or "its just economics" should result in the people at the bottom of the pecking order getting screwed yet again. Every decision made by a politician or a CEO in this country is only to further their own interests by screwing over the people. Yep People, families, mums, dads, home brewers we all end up copping it. Instead of looking down at us to save the economy/their business some of these decision makers need to look at themselves and their rich mates.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

MastersBrewery said:


> . What we need from government is long term vision, not short term reelection.


Good luck with that brother


----------



## Zorco (19/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Good luck to us all on that brother


FTFY


----------



## goomboogo (19/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Good luck with that brother


So, Weal and MastersBrewery are your brothers. Are than any more of you siblings on this forum?


----------



## Dave70 (19/7/16)

Illegitimate love child checking in.


----------



## Camo6 (19/7/16)

MastersBrewery said:


> and hence the larger infrastructure works requied in nearly every capital city have been avoided, and by this I mean 20 year projects, such as the VFT ( very fast train). Because the project won't finish in a government term it doesn't get done, all because at the next election the opposition points out a great big deficit. Note we have already spent billions on feasability studies and such. It's taken 20 years to turn soil on Syney's second airport, by the time it's complete we'll probably need a third. What we need from government is long term vision, not short term reelection.


Spot on. Sometimes I think this country's political goals are purely focused on a pissing contest between the two big parties. We need to vote for the independents even if all it does is to wake those fat rich fuckers up to what their real purpose is.


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## wide eyed and legless (19/7/16)

Bridges, when it all boils down a balance has got to be met, understanding that there are people out there who invest their hard earned money in a company must have a return, not should, but must, otherwise the invested money will go where it will get a return, the world is a small place and if investments are attractive overseas that is where the money will end up.
Companies have a right to award contracts where it seems fit, you don't know nor do I what those contracts have written into them, I can't imagine a company tendering for a contract writing in what they will be paying the employees who are to carry out the work, it just doesn't make sense, so why would a union picket a company over the said contract.


----------



## spog (19/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> Illegitimate love child checking in.


Never ever ever attending a group brew day......


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

spog said:


> Never ever ever attending a group brew day......


Pfftt.....You should have been at the first couple of Qld Xmas Swap meet..

There where so many illegitimate love childs there that you couldnt pick the fake ones


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Bridges, when it all boils down a balance has got to be met, understanding that there are people out there who invest their hard earned money in a company must have a return, not should, but must, otherwise the invested money will go where it will get a return, the world is a small place and if investments are attractive overseas that is where the money will end up.
> Companies have a right to award contracts where it seems fit, you don't know nor do I what those contracts have written into them, *I can't imagine a company tendering for a contract writing in what they will be paying the employees *who are to carry out the work, it just doesn't make sense, so why would a union picket a company over the said contract.


Yes, but contracts can also be written that they must only use qualified people and pay award wages and penalties, super...etc..etc. This takes the onus off them and onto the contractor, and if the contractor is found not to it could end up very costly. Big Biz will cover there ass bigtime


----------



## Zorco (19/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Bridges, when it all boils down a balance has got to be met, understanding that there are people out there who invest their hard earned money in a company must have a return, not should, but must, otherwise the invested money will go where it will get a return, the world is a small place and if investments are attractive overseas that is where the money will end up.
> Companies have a right to award contracts where it seems fit, you don't know nor do I what those contracts have written into them, I can't imagine a company tendering for a contract writing in what they will be paying the employees who are to carry out the work, it just doesn't make sense, so why would a union picket a company over the said contract.


Consultant engineer here. Every time and expense contract we agree to has rates for people, roles and key personnel.

All fixed fee contracts under a panel have rates against the program. (Well, all is fairly broad - but certainly more than an imagination)


----------



## wide eyed and legless (19/7/16)

Does seem strange to me, but then again I was into buying and selling, and I'm not likely to say to someone I bought this for $2.00 but you can have it for $12.00 am I.


----------



## Zorco (19/7/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Does seem strange to me, but then again I was into buying and selling, and I'm not likely to say to someone I bought this for $2.00 but you can have it for $12.00 am I.


By that earlier reasoning you should mate. "Must make a return"

How about this thread finds its way to the cot. It's come a fair way and it doesn't have the afterglow that this much effort should yield. 

An emotional investment without the mandatory return. I'll go to the overseas thread to invest.

Just kidding. I admire your endurance WEAL.

What's next on the funny videos thread?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (19/7/16)

I admire your endurance WEAL.
If you had Walter D Wintle drummed into you as a child then you would understand.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I admire your endurance WEAL.


The man is an athlete....


----------



## Camo6 (19/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The man is an athlete....


Must be all the raw eggs. Caged of course, not free range. Who cares how someone else treats them as long as they cost less.


----------



## Zorco (19/7/16)

I prefer free range. The chickens are more healthy. I have nine chickens and they cost me a bit up front but they are great pets and the kids and I treat them well. We all care about them. They're only caged at night time but that is to keep the possums out. 

Did you know that the possums were getting into their cage and it was stressing them out. Well, guess what, I closed that last gap in the frame the chickens were much happier. We started getting 5 eggs a day instead of 2.

How about that? Golly. Such a blessed outcome.


----------



## Camo6 (19/7/16)

So you took away any outside influence on your chickens working conditions? How did they sign the contract?


----------



## Zorco (19/7/16)

[emoji19]


----------



## madpierre06 (19/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> So you took away any outside influence on your chickens working conditions? How did they sign the contract?


He didn't need a signature..they were just happy to turn up to work.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> They're only caged at night time but that is to keep the possums out.


 Hate them chicken eating Possums


----------



## Mardoo (20/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Did you know that the possums were getting into their cage and it was stressing them out. Well, guess what, I closed that last gap in the frame the chickens were much happier. We started getting 5 eggs a day instead of 2.


Hell, big brushies stress ME out. I had one go at me once when I was trying to get it out of the garage. Those claws can grip hard and do some damage. One used to come in through the cat door and then freak out and bash around the house at 1AM. That was fun. I wish we could usher them on to the next life here in VIC. I blame reptilian CUB delivery guys.


----------



## Camo6 (20/7/16)

madpierre06 said:


> He didn't need a signature..they were just happy to turn up to work.


For the same amount of feed yeah?


----------



## Mardoo (20/7/16)

Less.


----------



## Camo6 (20/7/16)

Mardoo said:


> Less.


Must be bloody rats!


----------



## wynnum1 (20/7/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I prefer free range. The chickens are more healthy. I have nine chickens and they cost me a bit up front but they are great pets and the kids and I treat them well. We all care about them. They're only caged at night time but that is to keep the possums out.
> 
> Did you know that the possums were getting into their cage and it was stressing them out. Well, guess what, I closed that last gap in the frame the chickens were much happier. We started getting 5 eggs a day instead of 2.
> 
> How about that? Goly. Such a blessed outcome.


Finding a regular supply of food and shelter in urban areas, fox population densities in Australian cities are now higher than that of the surrounding rural areas.
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2010/01/07/2787351.htm


----------



## Zorco (20/7/16)

And in the end, the way I feel about this thread is exactly the same as how I feel about C.U.B.


----------



## Crusty (20/7/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Hate them chicken eating Possums


Quolls are bastards. They look a lot like possums but will destroy your chickens over night.
They kill one, eat a certain part of it then kill the next one & so on.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/7/16)

Yep. Quolls bite the necks out of chickens, so do Phascogales... Had a few chickens get attacked by them


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/7/16)

I like my eggs to come from a chicken that stays in her allotted one square metre and not a millimeter more.


----------



## Bridges (27/7/16)

Not that I believe anything that news limited publishes but I'd like this to be true...


----------



## malt and barley blues (27/7/16)

I can believe it if it was researched this year,my investments returned in the negative this year.


----------



## Curly79 (7/9/16)

The rally to support these 55 workers who have been bent over by C.U.B is on in Melbourne tomorrow. Starts 11am in the Docklands and marching to Parliament House. Seeya there. I'll be the bloke in the fluro Orange tee shirt [emoji106]


----------



## sp0rk (7/9/16)

Don't you mean bent over by the contracting company that won the contract?


----------



## wobbly (7/9/16)

Curly79 said:


> The rally to support these 55 workers who have been bent over by C.U.B is on in Melbourne tomorrow. Starts 11am in the Docklands and marching to Parliament House. Seeya there. I'll be the bloke in the fluro Orange tee shirt [emoji106]


One would hope that you are directly impacted and not just another Rent a Crowd member

Wobbly


----------



## SBOB (7/9/16)

sp0rk said:


> Don't you mean bent over by the contracting company that won the contract?


yeah, but thats nowhere near as AM radio talkback worthy


----------



## Camo6 (7/9/16)

wobbly said:


> One would hope that you are directly impacted and not just another Rent a Crowd member
> 
> Wobbly


Ahh, you do understand how unions won the rights we now take for granted, yeah?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/9/16)

there was a good piece on radio national show "Background Briefing" the other week. Worth a listen if you've got half an hour spare. Or skim the transcript if that's your modus operandi
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/battle-of-the-brewery/7792416


----------



## SBOB (7/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> Ahh, you do understand how unions won the rights we now take for granted, yeah?


I dont think that means everyone needs to march and blindly support every workplace dispute? especially those where the union quote snippets only give half the story?

And there are plenty of countries with better employment conditions than us who dont have the same union-praising history


----------



## Camo6 (7/9/16)

SBOB said:


> I dont think that means everyone needs to march and blindly support every workplace dispute?


How else does a labour force get results without withdrawing labour?


----------



## SBOB (7/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> How else does a labour force get results without withdrawing labour?


so a labour force should be able to just get whatever they want, and if not, take their ball and go home?
If so, then shouldnt an employer of that labour force be equally able to just take their ball and go find some new players?


----------



## manticle (7/9/16)

wobbly said:


> One would hope that you are directly impacted and not just another Rent a Crowd member
> 
> Wobbly


Who's renting?

I need some quick cash.


----------



## Camo6 (7/9/16)

SBOB said:


> so a labour force should be able to just get whatever they want, and if not, take their ball and go home?
> If so, then shouldnt an employer of that labour force be equally able to just take their ball and go find some new players?


Sure can. But they'll struggle to reach the ground! Hahaha!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/9/16)

SBOB said:


> so a labour force should be able to just get whatever they want, and if not, take their ball and go home?
> If so, then shouldnt an employer of that labour force be equally able to just take their ball and go find some new players?


it's a bit more complicated than that. The work force had negotiated & signed a workplace agreement with the employer 6 months ago which was supposed to last for 3 years. They found a loophole to pull the pin on it and apply an agreement that was not negotiated with the affected workers (or any workers it seems). Besides, the replacement workers are a stop-gap at best. Have a listen to the podcast I linked to.


----------



## moonhead (8/9/16)

SBOB said:


> I dont think that means everyone needs to march and blindly support every workplace dispute? especially those where the union quote snippets only give half the story?


Especially seeing how the union is treating the people who work for the new contractor. I can't see any reason at all to give them my support when they abuse people going about their legal work.


----------



## Curly79 (8/9/16)

wobbly said:


> One would hope that you are directly impacted and not just another Rent a Crowd member
> 
> Wobbly


Directly impacted?... no I don't work at CUB if that's what you mean. But if these greedy pricks get away this its just another step closer to me, as an employee of a large plumbing company, getting dragged into my bosses office and being told " hey Curly, I know I normally pay you $1,200 a week but I've decided I'm only gunna pay you $400. Here...sign this or **** off ". Directly impacted? Not yet. Rent a crowd? No. Here in victoria we call it solidarity.


----------



## sp0rk (8/9/16)

Except that's a different situation to what's happened here...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> Ahh, you do understand how unions won the rights we now take for granted, yeah?


Your talking about Wobbly here...brother/sister of WEAL, so your time is truly wasted with them


----------



## bradsbrew (8/9/16)

Liam_snorkel said:


> it's a bit more complicated than that. The work force had negotiated & signed a workplace agreement with the employer 6 months ago which was supposed to last for 3 years. They *found* a loophole to pull the pin on it and apply an agreement that was not negotiated with the affected workers (or any workers it seems). Besides, the replacement workers are a stop-gap at best. Have a listen to the podcast I linked to.


Found a loophole or used the loophole that they knew was always an option?


----------



## moonhead (8/9/16)

http://www.theage.com.au/business/workplace-relations/thousands-rally-in-melbourne-for-sacked-beer-workers-20160908-grbi7z.html

6 months notice of the contract coming to an end, redundancy payouts, and new jobs offered in the range of $70-120k. Really seems to me like they're not that hard done by. With that much notice, and the payouts, if they were getting hard done by with the new offers, they should not have any issues finding work where they'll be more appreciated (ie, paid more).


----------



## Camo6 (8/9/16)

"The brewery has undergone a decline in volumes in the past five years as more beer is produced at cheaper sites within CUB's network."

Haha. Cheaper sites or countries?


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

moonhead said:


> http://www.theage.com.au/business/workplace-relations/thousands-rally-in-melbourne-for-sacked-beer-workers-20160908-grbi7z.html
> 
> 6 months notice of the contract coming to an end, redundancy payouts, and new jobs offered in the range of $70-120k.


"before overtime"
"saying the generous conditions negotiated over the decades "have resulted in what we see as an unsustainable situation"."

Just because a contract is awarded during times when rates are high, such as mining boom times or skilled labour shortages, you cant expect that higher than average income level to continue when those times come to an end..


----------



## madpierre06 (8/9/16)

What happened to businesses putting bucks away during those boom times to cover the lean days, so as to enable them to maintain as much of their experienced work force as possible for when it booms again.....nah, screw that...we'll just sack 'em and hire more monkleys when we need to.


----------



## rude (8/9/16)

More money for the CEO stuff the workforce


----------



## madpierre06 (8/9/16)

You'd think it's a conflict of interest when share prices are usually part of a salary package, and surefire way of lifting the price is to sack a few thousand disposables.


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

madpierre06 said:


> What happened to businesses putting bucks away during those boom times to cover the lean days, so as to enable them to maintain as much of their experienced work force as possible for when it booms again.....nah, screw that...we'll just sack 'em and hire more monkleys when we need to.


what happened to contractors putting bucks away during those book times to cover the lean days?


----------



## madpierre06 (8/9/16)

SBOB said:


> what happened to contractors putting bucks away during those book times to cover the lean days?


That's assuming they get paid.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/16)

SBOB, have you listened to the podcast yet mate?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/9/16)

Can I suggest that anyone who has not read Thomas Pickety's "Capital in the 21st Century" disqualify themselves from posting generalisations on the subject of labour economics in this (or any other) thread?

You are welcome to keep displaying your ignorance if you really want, but what's the point?

You are not going to convince the other side of the argument that yours is the one true way.

If you are not doing it in the expectation that it will have an effect, you must be doing it because it makes you feel better. We have a name for pleasuring yourself in public.


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Can I suggest that anyone who has not read Thomas Pickety's "Capital in the 21st Century" disqualify themselves from posting generalisations on the subject of labour economics in this (or any other) thread?
> 
> You are welcome to keep displaying your ignorance if you really want, but what's the point?
> 
> ...


man, if we posts in threads are going to required prior reading then its gonna get aweful quite around here...
and how can one book be the complete basis for all comments on labour economics?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/9/16)

madpierre06 said:


> You'd think it's a conflict of interest when share prices are usually part of a salary package, and surefire way of lifting the price is to sack a few thousand disposables.


I don't think there is any conflict of interest, a CEO is there to do a job, take Alan Joyce a few years ago Qantas shares were down around 70 cents things were looking grim yes he sacked a few thousand workers but in doing so saved the jobs of thousands of others, he could have quit, but took a pay cut and persevered and last year made a $975 million dollar gain from the previous years record $2.8 billion loss. Anyone who invested in Qantas in 2014 would have doubled their money, he deserves his $9.8 million bonus, plus Qantas will re-employ workers.

As for whats happening at CUB no one really knows what is going on CUB management are saying nothing the contractor is saying nothing, the only ones with something to say are the former employees and the union, if they really wanted to stuff CUB up why don't they just move on and let CUB and the contractor find other tradesmen to work for the pittance which they claim no one will work for, that'l **** em


----------



## Camo6 (8/9/16)

SBOB said:


> what happened to contractors putting bucks away during those book times to cover the lean days?


No need. Apparently contractors now get offered redundancies 6 months before their contract expires.


Don't have to read dem big fancy books to know that sounds awful strange. Ayuh.


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

Liam_snorkel said:


> SBOB, have you listened to the podcast yet mate?


the ABC one?
I skimmed the transcript


but as ive mentioned earlier in this thread, many of my comments are coming from a mostly devils advocate position.
Partly because I find union v non-union arguments somewhat in the same vain as apple v android


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> No need. Apparently contractors now get offered redundancies 6 months before their contract expires.
> 
> 
> Don't have to read dem big fancy books to know that sounds awful strange. Ayuh.


isnt that just called 'paying out their contract'?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/9/16)

SBOB said:


> and how can one book be the complete basis for all comments on labour economics?


Can you see the logical fallacy you've committed there?

If you invert the truth conditions you must also reverse the arrow of implication.


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Can you see the logical fallacy you've committed there?
> 
> If you invert the truth conditions you must also reverse the arrow of implication.


not really, AND, OR, XOR it as much as you like..
disqualifying anyone from commenting in 'general terms' unless they have read one book seems like a pretty restrictive final condition in whatever logical reasoning you want to AND it with


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/9/16)

> Can you see the locical fallacy you've committed there?






> not really,



Evidently.


----------



## Camo6 (8/9/16)

SBOB said:


> isnt that just called 'paying out their contract'?


Who knows. We're being fed shit from both sides and no one knows the full story. But bit of a stretch for the spokesperson to mention redundancies when the dismissed employees were offered their old positions back under a new employer.


----------



## SBOB (8/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Evidently.


Indubitably


----------



## Camo6 (8/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> If you are not doing it in the expectation that it will have an effect, you must be doing it because it makes you feel better. We have a name for pleasuring yourself in public.


You left out a third possible motive for posting in this thread. Pretentiousness.


----------



## GalBrew (8/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Can I suggest that anyone who has not read Thomas Pickety's "Capital in the 21st Century" disqualify themselves from posting generalisations on the subject of labour economics in this (or any other) thread?
> 
> You are welcome to keep displaying your ignorance if you really want, but what's the point?
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that people without any knowledge on a particular topic should refrain from commenting on said topic until they gain some relevant knowledge? I tip my hat to you sir and whilst I agree wholeheartedly, I must ask......have you met the Internet before?


----------



## WarmerBeer (8/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> You left out a third possible motive for posting in this thread. Pretentiousness.


I thought I was posting in the "Classic AHB threads" thread.


----------



## moonhead (9/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> Who knows. We're being fed shit from both sides and no one knows the full story. But bit of a stretch for the spokesperson to mention redundancies when the dismissed employees were offered their old positions back under a new employer.


Well, think about it from an employer's side of things, you've got 55 odd sparkies on your payroll, who do work at a site you've got the contract for. All of a sudden (well not that suddenly in this case, actually), you lose that contract. If you don't have any other work for them to do, their positions are now redundant in your business, if you're still solvent you will need to provide proper redundancy packages for them.


Side note, doing the maths here, if the unions claims are true, that the new positions being offered are a 65% reduction in pay, that would mean even the lowest paying position @ $70k, would have been paid $200k under the old employer. If you're earning that much cash, you must either be pretty shit hot at your job, or have the best luck in the world. If you're really that shit hot, then you shouldn't have any issues finding a new job paying that much again.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/9/16)

another issue they had is that the new contract had a clause that the employer can change the rate of pay at any time without notice.


----------



## Camo6 (9/9/16)

moonhead said:


> Well, think about it from an employer's side of things, you've got 55 odd sparkies on your payroll, who do work at a site you've got the contract for. All of a sudden (well not that suddenly in this case, actually), you lose that contract. If you don't have any other work for them to do, their positions are now redundant in your business, if you're still solvent you will need to provide proper redundancy packages for them.
> 
> 
> Side note, doing the maths here, if the unions claims are true, that the new positions being offered are a 65% reduction in pay, that would mean even the lowest paying position @ $70k, would have been paid $200k under the old employer. If you're earning that much cash, you must either be pretty shit hot at your job, or have the best luck in the world. If you're really that shit hot, then you shouldn't have any issues finding a new job paying that much again.


At the end of the day we're just surmising. If we use the etu's inflated figures in the same calculation as cub's inflated figures, we'll have Rupert Murdoch sending in his CV.


----------



## moonhead (9/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> At the end of the day we're just surmising. If we use the etu's inflated figures in the same calculation as cub's inflated figures, we'll have Rupert Murdoch sending in his CV.


I don't think CUB has said anything on the situation, because, well, they're not really involved... Those salary figures appear to have been sourced by Fairfax from job postings.


----------



## Camo6 (9/9/16)

moonhead said:


> I don't think CUB has said anything on the situation, because, well, they're not really involved... Those salary figures appear to have been sourced by Fairfax from job postings.


Did you read the article you linked?


----------



## wynnum1 (9/9/16)

What they save in this pay dispute would be trivial would think they have future plans for the brewery and production may be heading overseas like so many other jobs
Terminator 3 - Rise of the Machines _Sara Connor is in Indonesia _jail .
Oct 21, 2015 - Believe it: '_Back to the Future_' predicted _Trump's_ run


----------



## loco88 (9/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> Who knows. We're being fed shit from both sides and no one knows the full story. But bit of a stretch for the spokesperson to mention redundancies when the dismissed employees were offered their old positions back under a new employer.


Why? Redundancies have to be offered when a position within a company has been made redundant; if they get poached afterwards by another company that doesn't mitigate that.

Unless of course it happens before they take the redundancy.


----------



## rude (9/9/16)

Alan Joyce ! are you kidding me ! an example of what ?

An example of how a human being shouldnt turn out like


----------



## Camo6 (9/9/16)

loco88 said:


> Why? Redundancies have to be offered when a position within a company has been made redundant; if they get poached afterwards by another company that doesn't mitigate that.
> 
> Unless of course it happens before they take the redundancy.


Bit of a stretch when a cub spokeswoman mentions redundancies when the roles haven't become redundant, just the salaries. Never argued the legality of it (every 'I' would have been dotted, for sure) just the morality.


----------



## moonhead (9/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> Bit of a stretch when a cub spokeswoman mentions redundancies when the roles haven't become redundant, just the salaries. Never argued the legality of it (every 'I' would have been dotted, for sure) just the morality.


The roles have become redundant though. The company that had the contract lost it, they have no use to keep those roles within their business.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (9/9/16)

I would love to know if the 54 laid off workers are all still unemployed or has any of them been re-employed else where, it would certainly leave a lot of egg (free range) on the face of those who gave up time for the march through the city.
As moonhead says the contractors were laid off because the contract was terminated, but it would be interesting to know the ins and outs of the cats bottom what has exactly gone on between the contractors, both parties, and CUB.
It really does seem incomprehensible to lay off a group of workers and then offer to re-employ them at a discount rate with another contractor, if they (CUB) were going offshore why not keep everything sweet and announce it to the masses when they were ready to close their doors. Not logical.


----------



## Camo6 (9/9/16)

Must...stop...posting.

I'm bowing out. We're just arguing semantics here.

As a soon to be dual tradesman coming from one of the worst paid trades into one that recognises my efforts, I can appreciate the value of a unified labour force. 

I hope that those that make the effort to post in this thread are never financially affected like these workers have been and for any that may have been, I hope you have come to terms with it and can appreciate how valuable it would be to have someone watching your back.

If you're just posting because you're anti-union, you probably need to get out more.

Once again AHB; this has been a fun thread but it's time I finished my zealous rant and got back to enjoying beer. Thanks for playing everyone.


----------



## sp0rk (9/9/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would love to know if the 54 laid off workers are all still unemployed or has any of them been re-employed else where, it would certainly leave a lot of egg (free range) on the face of those who gave up time for the march through the city.
> As moonhead says the contractors were laid off because the contract was terminated, but it would be interesting to know the ins and outs of the cats bottom what has exactly gone on between the contractors, both parties, and CUB.
> It really does seem incomprehensible to lay off a group of workers and then offer to re-employ them at a discount rate with another contractor, if they (CUB) were going offshore why not keep everything sweet and announce it to the masses when they were ready to close their doors. Not logical.


Exactly
I was a contractor for a certain large telco for nearly a decade and we went through 3 different contracting companies the whole time I was there
The final one was because they'd decided instead of having about 20 different contracting companies, they were consolidating everything down to a single company
We were given 3 months notice, let go, and subsequently rehired by the new company
We were hired on a lower wage, but with holidays and sick leave

Was I angry at this?
Not at all
These terms were explicitly stated in my contract when I first started, and I always knew it was a possibility
Hell, my contract said we were able to be let go with an hour's notice, the 3 months was a big bonus for those who didn't reapply.
No doubt CUB have had some goings on behind the scenes in this one (there are many other bigger reasons why they're evil in my mind), but the "CUB LET THEIR WORKERS GO, **** THEM" sentiment is a bit stupid in my opinion


----------



## wide eyed and legless (9/9/16)

Camo if your having a crack at me, I am taking no sides in this one, I do appreciate what unions have done in the past, but you must appreciate that it is what you do that matters, if in the future you start an electrical contracting business you will have your eyes opened from the other side of the fence, the only one who cares about you and your family is you. What has happened at CUB is strange to say the least that is why I would love to know all the ins and outs, definitely going off shore is out of the question.
They are virtually paying no tax, but maybe have seen the writing on the wall that tax time is coming, and are trying to reduce overheads, only CUB knows what the purpose is, none of us will have a clue on here.


----------



## Camo6 (9/9/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Camo if your having a crack at me, I am taking no sides in this one, I do appreciate what unions have done in the past, but you must appreciate that it is what you do that matters, if in the future you start an electrical contracting business you will have your eyes opened from the other side of the fence, the only one who cares about you and your family is you. What has happened at CUB is strange to say the least that is why I would love to know all the ins and outs, definitely going off shore is out of the question.
> They are virtually paying no tax, but maybe have seen the writing on the wall that tax time is coming, and are trying to reduce overheads, only CUB knows what the purpose is, none of us will have a clue on here.


Never you WEAL. I respect your astuteness. Was typing while you posted is all.



Edit: FINAL POST!


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## wynnum1 (9/9/16)

World domination of brewing who controls CUB .


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## Curly79 (7/12/16)

Woo Hoo! They got their jobs back! You can still belt your beer up your arse C.U.B !!


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## Vini2ton (7/12/16)

I guess if we stick together they can go get another time and motion expert.


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## Bridges (7/12/16)

I'd been meaning to post this here. I love a happy ending! Congrats to the cub 55 and all who supported them!


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## Stouter (7/12/16)

The name of the game is profit. The easiest way to balance the books in favour of profits is to screw workers down so the balance sheet shows wages and entitlements at a low while maintaining the same (if not more) production and sales. Simple concept, why would you give a shit about the workers if you're still able to make the same $$$. Much the same as we do with our brewing calculators, adjust here and there to get the acceptable outcome.
It's a story played out through and though since the industrial age started to evolve.


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## Camo6 (7/12/16)

Hopefully they came to a satisfactory agreement. Either way, it's a decisive win for any Australian worker.
But damned if I'll spend another cent buying CUB products.

Viva la revolution.


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## Mardoo (7/12/16)

Because you were just POURING your hard-earned into their coffers before. BTW, I have your cube.


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## Camo6 (8/12/16)

Haha! I did like the odd MB. Cheers, I'll try and arrange a time to drop in.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/12/16)

I know WEAL was the first to congratulate those 55 workers


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## Bridges (8/12/16)

Is that like he congratulated the train drivers on their hard fought and deserved pay and conditions?


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## Dave70 (8/12/16)

This thread has a strong Evelyn Beatrice Hall periphrasis feel about it. "I disapprove of beer you produce, but I will defend to the death your right to brew it".


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## wide eyed and legless (8/12/16)

You have to ask why C.U.B. started this off in the first place, they are managed by professionals who know exactly what the consequences would be when they orchestrated pulling the pin on the original contract agreement, cold weather beer sales at the lowest point, they saved money, weather warms up, beer sales climb, come on back to your jobs we were only kidding.

I notice the union negotiators aren't crowing about the wage the maintenance crew are going to get in their future pay packets, so I would doubt its the same,and it definitely wont be more be more.
Winners and losers. Maintenance crew along with their families on the grass for all that time are the losers.
If C.U.B. lost money, which I doubt, we shall soon know, if the beer prices go up or they reduce the capacity of a bottle.
And the investors well they have to be looked after we wouldn't want them cashing out their money and investing in Estonia or some other Eastern block country.

The train drivers had their strike in November, January Metro put the fares up an average of 6% so losers are again Joe Public, does it bother me, no, as long as nobody tries dipping their bread in my soup.


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## Bridges (8/12/16)

Metro have an "annual fare adjustment" every January. I can't see them ever adjusting it down no matter what the train drivers do.


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## rude (8/12/16)

6 months on the grass picketing thats a huge effort

These are family people & that would have strained their relationships

CUB tried to reduce their alcohol level in VB but caused a backlash never worked

If I was a shareholder I'de be pissed with the top end & want its head

Why couldn't they have negotiated in the first place


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## Stouter (8/12/16)

If the machinery of capitalism is oiled by the blood of the workers, maybe CUB could start using/making actual drinkable beer instead.


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## Dave70 (8/12/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> as long as nobody tries dipping their bread in my soup.


Or uses a very long straw to drink your milkshake. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb9yu6dljAU


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## Camo6 (8/12/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I notice the union negotiators aren't crowing about the wage the maintenance crew are going to get in their future pay packets, so I would doubt its the same,and it definitely wont be more be more.


Without a doubt. If they were getting the same or more the people of Estonia would have heard by now. Still, if they've retained an eba they'll still come out the victors. Until they shut the site down, that is.


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## wide eyed and legless (8/12/16)

They won't shut it down, but they have to remain competitive, the one who can produce the worst beer and get more for it is the winner.


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## rude (8/12/16)

Or they could produce a good beer make less profit 

Word gets out , they sell more & make just as much

Then they could wind it back if they dare


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## DU99 (8/12/16)

who cares what cub does there's better beer..aren't we craft brewer's


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/12/16)

Personally, in the grand scheme of things, I doubt it cost CUB much at all realistically. They are making 100's of millions, and a little spat like would be SFA

I bet they where more worried about the facebook persecution


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## Camo6 (8/12/16)

They can produce the beer cheaper in Queensland due to reduced labour costs. They'd import it all if they thought we would buy it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/12/16)

Camo6 said:


> They can produce the beer cheaper in Queensland due to reduced labour costs. They'd import it all if they thought we would buy it.


Your talking die hard VB drinkers....


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## Killer Brew (18/5/17)

Leaked documents cast further bad light on CUB 

https://insidefmcg.com.au/2017/05/18/carlton-and-united-breweries-leaked-documents-emerge/#daily


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## madpierre06 (18/5/17)

They are committed to working collaboratively though....and yeah, I have seen the other side of the coin where unions are at fault. There is no need for unions though if businesses make a decision to view their workforce as fellow humans who are vital to the long term success of any business and are also buyers of company products.. And treat them as such


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## Bribie G (18/5/17)

madpierre06 said:


> They are committed to working collaboratively though....and yeah, I have seen the other side of the coin where unions are at fault. There is no need for unions though if businesses make a decision to view their workforce as fellow humans who are vital to the long term success of any business and are also buyers of company products.. And treat them as such


According to the Guardian, physicists are now seriously looking for evidence of parallel alternative universes existing in dimensions that we are unaware of. No doubt what you wrote above is commonplace there in a few of them. B)


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## madpierre06 (18/5/17)

:chug: and politicians will be working collaboratively for the good of the country as well.


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## goomboogo (18/5/17)

madpierre06 said:


> :chug: and politicians will be working collaboratively for the good of the country as well.


That happens in many of the universes within the multiverse. Some of them would be good places to live.


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## wynnum1 (19/5/17)

Have they looked at _Uranus_ or with politicians there anus for parallel alternative universes


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## yankinoz (20/5/17)

goomboogo said:


> That happens in many of the universes within the multiverse. Some of them would be good places to live.


It's been pointed out many times that in an infinite universe anything that can happen, no matter how improbable it may be and no matter what string of improbable events leads up to it, not only will happen, but will happen an infinite number of times. The Catholic church once barbied an Italian priest named Bruno for applying the logic to Jesuses. It turns out our universe is finite, but if there's an infinity of universes, the same logic should work.

It also applies to alternative events. Somewhere the Bulldogs win the Grand Final, and the citizens of a powerful nation elect an orange-hued maniac president. Oh wait . . .


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/5/17)

Bulldogs wining a Grand Final.....never heard such stupidity until Trump got elected


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## wynnum1 (20/5/17)

yankinoz said:


> It's been pointed out many times that in an infinite universe anything that can happen, no matter how improbable it may be and no matter what string of improbable events leads up to it, not only will happen, but will happen an infinite number of times. The Catholic church once barbied an Italian priest named Bruno for applying the logic to Jesuses. It turns out our universe is finite, but if there's an infinity of universes, the same logic should work.
> 
> It also applies to alternative events. Somewhere the Bulldogs win the Grand Final, and the citizens of a powerful nation elect an orange-hued maniac president. Oh wait . . .


If you draw lotto numbers infinite number of times it is possible for the same numbers to be drawn a large number of times if using paper ticket could be a serious environmental problems


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/5/17)

Derren brown is an expert at it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzYLHOX50Bc


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## wynnum1 (20/5/17)

If there where infinite universes and some way was found to communicate between them think how hard writing original songs and making movies would become all men at work would need to do is find an earlier version and purchase it.


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