# Brewing salts for mash ph



## Chris79 (18/2/17)

I'm looking to start using brewing salts to adjust my mash ph.

From some reading I've done in one of Gordon Strong and John Palmer's books, I can raise my mash ph with calcium carbonate and lower it with calcium sulphate or calcium chloride. 

Would you use those brewing salts to do this? I'm just thinking of testing this with ph paper strips for now.

After testing to see what the mash ph is first of all, when do you add the salts? At the beginning of the mash or do you wait for 5-10 min etc for it to start to change?

Does the ph typically decrease during the mash?

Cheers
Chris


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## Jack of all biers (19/2/17)

Chris79 said:


> Would you use those brewing salts to do this? I'm just thinking of testing this with ph paper strips for now.


Short answer, yes. Long answer, it's complicated. Calcium carbonate is notorious and opinion is mostly in the camp of it doesn't absorb well enough to do much. The Cal.Chloride and Cal.Sulphate will assist the mash to lower the pH, but it only works to a certain level depending on your water profile and the natural buffering power of the mash. It's good you are using some way to test your pH rather than just guessing. Using pH strips that are in the range of 3-6 or so are more accurate than wide ranging pH strips.




Chris79 said:


> After testing to see what the mash ph is first of all, when do you add the salts? At the beginning of the mash or do you wait for 5-10 min etc for it to start to change?


I add them with the grains prior to under-letting, however you can add them when you want. If you add them near the beginning then you give the mash more time to equalise at a more ideal pH. How do you predict the pH you are aiming for? Well my advice is to look at Bru'n water or http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/ and play around with it until you get a prediction you are happy with. You will need some sort of water profile to do this with. If you use rain water, just assume your mineral values are zero. If it is mains water you should be able to get your mineral values from your water supplier.




Chris79 said:


> Does the ph typically decrease during the mash?


It depends on ingredients, if you add things during the mash, decoct, or have an acid rest etc... A typical single infusion mash for me does reduce slightly (I've an accurate pH meter), but we are talking up to 0.07 pH over 90 mins.


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## rude (19/2/17)

Jacks covered it well

My water here is all over the place so went R/O no raintank

Since I did this it makes it easy for me to do the styles I like

Plus one for Brun I have a meter & use it but flew blind for a while but must say Brun gets you very close if you input close


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## Chris79 (19/2/17)

Thanks guys.

Jack, is there a better brewing salt to use to raise the mash ph if needed?

Is Cal.Chloride or Cal.Sulphate better then the other?

I'll get the ph strips for my local brew shop on my next order, yes they say their strips are between 3.8 and 5.4.

I haven't had any luck yet finding my water report. I'm in the Parramatta council area, Sydney. Does anyone have the water report for Parramatta council?

Can I input some of my water/ph details into Beersmith (desktop) that I own?

Cheers!


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## manticle (19/2/17)

Brun is free as far as I know and comprehensive. The water knowledge page will also help understand what's going on.

It's long but you may find a water report for your area here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/31331-big-post-of-water-around-australia/

Otherwise email the water company and explain why you want values for (mean and mostly in ppm or mg/L):

Sodium/Na
Calcium/Ca
Magnesium/Mg
Chloride/Cl
Sulphate/SO4
Zinc/Zn
Bicarbonate/HCO3
pH

You can then input into a spreadsheet, measure 10-15 minutes into the mash and see how close you are.

Remember grain is acidic, dark grain is more acidic than light, that mash pH is more important than water pH and that mash buffers itself, resists change and is reasonably stable once set.

You will only ever need to worry about raising pH in very dark beers - lighter coloured beer will either be close or need acid/acid malt to drop it further.


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## wobbly (19/2/17)

manticle said:


> Brun is free as far as I know and comprehensive. The water knowledge page will also help understand what's going on.


There is a free basic, but still quiet comprehensive, version and then for a "contribution" (I made a $10 contribution) Martin Bruingard will send you the full, version

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Jack of all biers (19/2/17)

Chris79 said:


> Jack, is there a better brewing salt to use to raise the mash ph if needed?


I have Calcium hydroxide (aka slaked lime, pickling lime or Kalkwasser), but have yet had the need to use it. I got it from this mob and it was the best price I could find.



Chris79 said:


> Is Cal.Chloride or Cal.Sulphate better then the other?


Calcium is the bit that helps reduce the pH. The Sulphate and Chloride ions help flavour profiles, not reduce pH. In simplest terms, they both work roughly the same in reducing pH, but Cal. Chlr. brings the maltiness of the brew to the fore and Cal. Sulph. rounds the hop bitterness and brings it to the fore.



Chris79 said:


> Can I input some of my water/ph details into Beersmith (desktop) that I own?


No idea, as I have never used Beersmith. Many on here do so they may know. Alternatively have a look yourself and see what it spits out.


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## Chris79 (19/2/17)

cheers Manticle. I've download the Brun spreadsheet. I've opened the Big post of water report , and started to work through that. I've make a link to the water knowledge page, will look to work through that when I can.

Cheers Jack, definitely an area, I have lots to learn about. Thanks for the pointers!

Think I'll check out Sydney Water, and see if I can find a water report for where I live.

Chris


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## Jack of all biers (19/2/17)

No worries. 

Re lots to learn; You can get books on the subject, but if you use the search function on this site you will pick up lots of tips and tricks (and fails) that you can learn from. But begin at the basics and read some of the free online material like John Palmers online book, then you can build from there.


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## Chris79 (21/2/17)

Jack - I've recently started re-reading the all grain brewing parts of Palmers book, and now re-reading again the part on mash ph.

I've gone to Sydney Water's website, and found my water supply is from Prospect North. Attached is I think some of the details I'll need to plug into Bru'n next.

I'll next look into plugging in what I have in that report to Brun.

I'm thinking of brewing a few English beers in a bit, properly starting with a mild, then maybe a best or strong bitter. To give me an overview on how to start to understand this, what might you do with brewing salts to get the mash ph to suit the style?

Here's the water report copy/paste style - couldn't see the attach option under 'more reply'. What's going on there? Hope the below makes enough sense to those who reply here!

iron mg/L 0.3 120 0.016
aluminium mg/L 0.2 28 0.007
manganese mg/L 0.1 120 0.002
copper mg/L 1 28 0.022
zinc mg/L 3 28 0.002 
ammonia as NH3 mg/L 0.50 28 0.292 
turbidity NTU 5 1,145 0.13
true colour HU 15 28 3 
dissolved oxygen % saturation greater than 85% 28 102.3
hardness (total) mg/L 200 28 57.8
pH pH units 6.5-8.5. 7.9 Average of test results between 6.5 - 8.5 pH units Yes

Cheers


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## Danscraftbeer (21/2/17)

Throw your hand in and brew it. If your interested the paper tests cant do it. Get a good pH test probe. 
Then test your brews. I found the minerals don't make a lot of difference to pH of the mash. In carefully measured added amounts.

Real pH adjustments in my limited expertize.
Darkest beers may need to Raise pH with a tiny tad /chefs discretion of Bi Carb Soda
Light end beers need to lower pH with around 2% or less of Acidulated Malt.

Then the mineral additions are to your desire.

This speaking of Melbourne Water that's filtered. I fell into a good filter on a phone survey believe it or not. 
That is like a blank start. Set all to zero and add to, or not? 
From the tap pH = 7.3
From the filter pH = 6.3

I usually try to make a water profile of an over all blend. Like 25% of the Burton on Trent profile but tweak that otherwise out of style profile guidelines and eccentric explorations.


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## MHB (22/2/17)

Chriss. The main ones you want are Chloride, Sulphate, Calcium and Magnesium, total hardness, pH and a few others are very handy.
If you cant link i.e. Prospect Water the snipping tool in windows is very handy (catch)




You can really overcomplicate water chemistry. Make sure you have enough Calcium, use Chloride or Sulphate to taste and if you really care, get a decent pH meter and adjust to target with a suitable acid (I use Lactic) or with Acid malt.

The best thing you can do is make sure you get rid of any Chlorine/Chloramine, very bad for beer.
Just glancing at the report, Magnesium is very low, Zinc nearly non-existent (typical Australian water) - actually there is nothing too scary in there


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## manticle (22/2/17)

Yeah chlorine/chloramine removal and a bit of calcium chloride for malt roundness is all you really need for a good bitter.

If you get into uk ipa or hoppier pale, calcium sulphate is your friend.

That water report doesn't have many of the values I suggested you need - those listed are only of concern if they are way too high, which in AU municipal water, would indicate other issues.


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## Chris79 (22/2/17)

Cheers Dan. So you don't bother with brewing salts and just use bi-carb and acid malt to change your pH? Fair call on a pH meter. I think the strips I can buy are said to have a range of 3.8 to to 5.4. Just trying to workout how to keep making better beer, while trying to keep the bulk of the cashflow in the household/family etc.

MHB I didn't think to use the link option. I see that now. And Lactic acid will lower the pH I'm guessing? What do you like about using lactic acid to do that? I assume that's in a liquid form? Yes, do want to keep things simply, but make progress brewing better beer.

Manticle, I have emailed a friend who works at Sydney Water here in Sydney and emailed Sydney Water through their website, telling them what I'm looking for. So are you of the opinion that brewing salts, as you've mentioned here work well enough to change mash pH and boil pH? Once I get some feedback from someone with the values I'm after, I'll look at plugging that data in the Brun. And look to get some input from there!

Cheers


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## manticle (22/2/17)

Brewing salts change pH. Enough? Depends entirely on the beer. Mostly mid coloured beers with soft water will do ok with just salts. I also think acid is a great option, especially in paler beers.

Salts have a number of benefits - pH is only one of those.


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## MHB (22/2/17)

Adding salts on their own at best (very pale malt in distilled water) you will have trouble getting the pH below 5.7pH which isn't really ideal, adding a touch of acid lets you get the pH exactly where you want it.
I did a talk at my home brew club a while ago there is a download in post #6 that works through it.

As manticle said the pH isn't the only benefit from using salts properly.
Mark


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## Kev R (23/2/17)

Just be careful with the acid. I got caught. Added a little, not much happened, added a little more, not much happened. Then added the same small dose and the ph hit 3.
Think it has something to do with overcoming the buffering capacity, or black magic ( black magic is easier to understand than water chemistry) :unsure:


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## MHB (23/2/17)

If you know the pH of your wort, the acid addition required is a pretty simple calculation, my retailer has it written on the bottle.
Water chemistry isn't as complicated as some people make it sound, often these are authors trying to sell a book.
In short: -
Get rid of any Chlorine
Find out what's in your water
Add enough Calcium
Check the pH and adjust

That's the basics and accounts for about 90% of what you really need to do. Yes you can play around with the Chloride/Sulphate balance and there is still a lot of debate about the role of Magnesium - but enough Ca and the right pH is the nuts - everything else is garnish.
Mark


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## wide eyed and legless (23/2/17)

I try and keep any adjustments to the bare minimum, but I have often wondered about what happens to those who I have read on here do a 15 litre sparge,
is this going to make any significant difference to the pH especially when using tap water?


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## manticle (23/2/17)

Depends on the pH of the sparge water. I add a teeny bit of lactic to mine.


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## kaiserben (23/2/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I try and keep any adjustments to the bare minimum, but I have often wondered about what happens to those who I have read on here do a 15 litre sparge,
> is this going to make any significant difference to the pH especially when using tap water?



I never really detected any issues in finished beer myself, but a couple of comments in competition feedback had me worrying/wondering about this tannins etc etc. 

So, after plugging data into the Bru'n Water spreadhseet, these days I acidify my sparge water with 0.5ml of "pure" (96%) phosphoric acid. 

I'm loving the way my beers taste these days (but I loved the way they tasted before, so who knows if there's been any significant change there).


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## GalBrew (23/2/17)

Kev R said:


> Just be careful with the acid. I got caught. Added a little, not much happened, added a little more, not much happened. Then added the same small dose and the ph hit 3.
> Think it has something to do with overcoming the buffering capacity, or black magic ( black magic is easier to understand than water chemistry) :unsure:


pH follows a sigmoid curve, you hit a point where the smallest acid addition will cause the pH to drop off a cliff. Super annoying when pH adjusting large volumes.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/2/17)

I generally do not sparge with any large volume of water, but just wondering about the end results of those who do, I have tried to get my head around Dave Millers thoughts on step mash, stiff mash and effect on pH, but leaves the average home brewer more confused when he goes into detail about the pros and cons of these methods.


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## manticle (23/2/17)

Like mhb said - break it down into simple, necessary steps.

Inform yourself about whys and wherefores if interested but most of it is just seasoning.


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## MHB (23/2/17)

Depends on what you think an "average" home brewer is.
You don't need a science degree to get the basics right, try reading the Braukaiser section on pH he also covers some of the other issues you have mentioned (L:G stiff mash, temperature steps...) and all in a pretty well worked through way that's not too hard to follow.

Similarly being suspect, but think about this, the old traditional bush billy tea, put the water, tea and sugar in the billy - cold - bring it to the boil, result is a rich tea with no bitterness (tannin).
Do the same thing without the sugar and the tannins are going to give you tea bitter and astringent enough to de-enamel your teeth!
The sugar is blocking the tannins from coming into solution, acid in the sparge water does the same thing, this is also why we can boil a decoction, there is enough sugar to block the tannins.


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## MHB (23/2/17)

GalBrew said:


> pH follows a sigmoid curve, you hit a point where the smallest acid addition will cause the pH to drop off a cliff. Super annoying when pH adjusting large volumes.


Not really, the graph of the pH might look a bit like that, but pH is the inverse of the -log of H+ ion concentration. Truth is there isn't a sudden jump in the concentration from similar sized additions, would be more of a power graph if you just plotted the hydrogen ion concentration, you would need a really tall bit of graph paper tho, which is why we use logs and powers to express widely disparate numbers.
M


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## Jack of all biers (23/2/17)

Post #68 of thread Who bothers with water chemistry is a little example of the change of actual pH that salt and acidulated malt additions can make. Obviously it is a practical example, so only goes for the recipe that I was brewing, but you should get the idea.

I agree with Manticle and MHB, in so far as you don't need to go overboard with it. It can be very simple with the RIGHT knowledge. For example for my brew, I did not need to use acid in the mash to get a very acceptable pH, but by the additions of salts for Ca and flavour profile took it to an "ideal" pH. The acidulated malt took it close to what many consider "the" ideal pH, but it wasn't a necessary addition. The mash would have made just as flavoursome a beer with the pH at 5.33 with only the salt additions and would have been fine without them at the original pH 5.47. 

You also don't need a mega accurate pH meter and there are many forum members that have given up testing their mash with a pH meter, as the predicted pH for their brews is always spot on. The strip tests should be good enough to get you within 0.2 pH or so and lets face it 5.1-5.6 is a pretty decent margin anyway. Not all mashes should be exactly on the always sought after 5.2 or 5.3. Just remember that balance is what should be aimed for by salt additions. As MHB said, get your Ca to acceptable levels, but I'd add that you can get just as good a pH adjustment by tweaking your recipe, by adding more acidic malts (not just acidulated malts, but melanoiden, crystal, caramalts, dark malts etc, etc...), than by salt additions.


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## Danscraftbeer (23/2/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I try and keep any adjustments to the bare minimum, but I have often wondered about what happens to those who I have read on here do a 15 litre sparge,
> is this going to make any significant difference to the pH especially when using tap water?


I sparge with filtered water. Its around pH6. I feel really lucky with this scenario. Melb tap water at 7.3 soft water or filtered is pH6.

Again, I make a mineral profile of around 25% of the Burton on Trent profile. That is based on the size of the brew. Not the total water used. All minerals added to the mash water for first infusion. Then sparge with filtered water that is basically blank at pH6.
I cant think of a reason how this could be a bad thing? Unless someone could I'm all ears.


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## Chris79 (23/2/17)

MHB said:


> Depends on what you think an "average" home brewer is.
> You don't need a science degree to get the basics right, try reading the Braukaiser section on pH he also covers some of the other issues you have mentioned (L:G stiff mash, temperature steps...) and all in a pretty well worked through way that's not too hard to follow.
> 
> Similarly being suspect, but think about this, the old traditional bush billy tea, put the water, tea and sugar in the billy - cold - bring it to the boil, result is a rich tea with no bitterness (tannin).
> ...


I was going to ask you Manticle for a link on something more detailed to read re some of the other benefits of getting a desired pH for the style of beer produced. But I've made a bookmark to this page on Kaiser's website. I have read a few other parts of he's website (really good), but will get into this!

I've also bookmarked your post Mark from your talk last year too


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## Chris79 (23/2/17)

MHB said:


> Adding salts on their own at best (very pale malt in distilled water) you will have trouble getting the pH below 5.7pH which isn't really ideal, adding a touch of acid lets you get the pH exactly where you want it.
> I did a talk at my home brew club a while ago there is a download in post #6 that works through it.
> 
> As manticle said the pH isn't the only benefit from using salts properly.
> Mark


My local brewshop (The Brew Shop) recommends add a touch of acid malt. I've done that on my last few beers. Which has been about 2% approx of the grain bill.


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## manticle (23/2/17)

Acid malt or acid are basically the same. I use liquid lactic acid - acidulated malt adds the same product for the same effect (mash not sparge water).


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/2/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I cant think of a reason how this could be a bad thing? Unless someone could I'm all ears.


The filtered water has 3/10 of FA buffering capacity so when it hits the grain bed the pH will rise and this will eventually increase the phenolic extraction.

This only becomes a problem when the extractable dissolved solids fall to a low level (? <3%), at higher solids levels the buffering capacity of the wort dominates.

For many home brewers there is no problem either because their efficiencies are such that they never reach this level or they don't happen to be sensitive to phenolic qualities in beer* (or both).

If you do routinely hit 2-3 oP on the last runnings and do happen to be sensitive to phenolics, the easy fix is 0.1 g/l lactic in the sparge water. I do that routinely but I'm a special snowflake when it comes to phenolics (In defence, they are a huge part of what I do for a living).


* An example is the guy who runs Brulosophy; he appears to have little interest in phenolics.


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## MHB (23/2/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Snip
> * An example is the guy who runs Brulosophy; he appears to have litttle interest in phenolics.


Or reality
M


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/2/17)

So many "t"s, so little time.


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## manticle (23/2/17)

Chris79 said:


> I was going to ask you Manticle for a link on something more detailed to read re some of the other benefits of getting a desired pH for the style of beer produced. But I've made a bookmark to this page on Kaiser's website. I have read a few other parts of he's website (really good), but will get into this!
> 
> I've also bookmarked your post Mark from your talk last year too


Well here's my take from a few years ago:http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/94190-boil-or-filter/?p=1435946 

In the linked article (link contains a link), there are some suggested references but brun and kai should see you right.

Brulosophy = make a hoppy beer, design a rough experiment with a million uncontrolled variables and get 4 of your mates to taste for statistical insignificance.

Bang. Brewing science on its ******* head like holm on rousey.


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## Chris79 (26/2/17)

I've started reading that Manticle. Looks like an approachable read! 

My friend at Sydney water said he'd get me some more details soon.

Yes I need to read some more of Kaiser soon. Definitely a good source of knowledge!

What do some of you guys dislike about Brulosophy?

Cheers


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## SBOB (26/2/17)

Chris79 said:


> What do some of you guys dislike about Brulosophy?
> 
> Cheers


Im assuming its not dislike for brulosophy (because how can you dislike someone who gets more people interested in homebrewing and also doing some pretty interesting experiments) and more that people who take their results from a single experiment for a single recipe (brewed in a guys garage) where the only judging characteristic is a taste testing, as definitive proof that some brewing concept is completely disproved and should be thrown out the window


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## MHB (26/2/17)

To me brulosophy is to brewing science what Myth Busters is to real research.
It's entertainment, not R&D.
Mark


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## manticle (26/2/17)

Myth busters is more entertaining.


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## SBOB (26/2/17)

MHB said:


> To me brulosophy is to brewing science what Myth Busters is to real research.
> It's entertainment, not R&D.
> Mark


It's not, but they do at least follow some decent scientific/statistical principles

Their results should be taken with consideration that its a sample size of 1, but its a good starting point on the path/discussion to determining whether those brewing rules/practices apply on a homebrew scale in the 'worth the effort' or 'taste the difference' test

I'm sure to anyone brewing professionally its completely irrelevant, but to the guy brewing at home doing things like stressing over the difference between pitching his yeast at 21c instead of 18c or whether his yeast count is exactly right, their results provide some actual results which can reinforce the 'RDWHAHB' mentality


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## manticle (26/2/17)

Actually the problem I have with it, apart from what you mentioned earlier (eg. people dismissing all brewing science in favour of one exbeeriment result), is exactly that - it's dressed up like a designed experiment but falls miserably short in many regards: sample size and repetition being two major ones.

IF it was presented as a side by side and nothing more, it would have more value. When he discusses the concept of statistical significance based on 5 people drinking some hoppy beer, I have to go and do some gardening.

HB side by side comparisons are of interest, without doubt.


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## TheWiggman (26/2/17)

Should start a new thread on that, would be a rage filled and awesome read.


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## wobbly (26/2/17)

SBOB said:


> Their results should be taken with consideration that its a sample size of 1, but its a good starting point on the path/discussion to determining whether those brewing rules/practices apply on a homebrew scale in the 'worth the effort' or 'taste the difference' test


With a sample point of 1 you can draw any graph you want around that point.
Taste is an individuals perception that is different from one person to another. There is no scientific scale to measure and record taste

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Gelding (26/2/17)

wobbly said:


> With a sample point of 1 you can draw any graph you want around that point.
> Taste is an individuals perception that is different from one person to another. There is no scientific scale to measure and record taste
> 
> Cheers
> ...



lol. MJE1980 and Rocker1986 don't agree that other's opinion of their own beer is important:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/88390-fermenting-same-lager-at-10c-vs-18c-comparison-on-brewing-radio/page-2


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## manticle (26/2/17)

If you've just popped in after a long haitus to troll and irritate various members Gelding, you can go back under your rock.

Feel free to stick around if you have something more useful than one line jabs and lolz to contribute.


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## Gelding (26/2/17)

oh oh. 

If you refer to off topic banter, then its just that isnt it ?

Actually, I fail to see how making a point on assessing the quality of one's beer is considered trolling. I am not sure who you think I am trying to irritate here, though clearly I am irritating your goodself.


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## manticle (26/2/17)

I'm referring to just about every post you've made in the last 30 or so minutes. Multiple posts, multiple threads, signal to noise ratio very much in favour of noise.

If you want to debate it, take it to pm. If you want to ignore what I'm asking, expect to have posts of no value start to get hidden.

Serious request to pull your head in, starting about now.

Thanks.


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## GalBrew (26/2/17)

SBOB said:


> It's not, but they do at least follow some decent scientific/statistical principles
> Their results should be taken with consideration that its a sample size of 1, but its a good starting point on the path/discussion to determining whether those brewing rules/practices apply on a homebrew scale in the 'worth the effort' or 'taste the difference' test
> 
> I'm sure to anyone brewing professionally its completely irrelevant, but to the guy brewing at home doing things like stressing over the difference between pitching his yeast at 21c instead of 18c or whether his yeast count is exactly right, their results provide some actual results which can reinforce the 'RDWHAHB' mentality


Brulosophy may use statistics, but statistics are completely meaningless when the experiment you are analysing is flawed in more ways than I can count. The biggest flaw (among many) in the Brulosophy paradigm is the random (in people selection) and untested nature of the tasting panel (no one knows if a particular variable can actually be detected by any particular member of the tasting panel). In my opinion as a former proper research scientist is that any result from a Brulosophy experiment (statistically significant or not) is only relevant to that particular tasting panel and can not be extrapolated to the general population.


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## SBOB (26/2/17)

No arguments there.. But when a sample of a number people cant distinguish some variable being tested (on that particular brew), then it's just another piece of information that can be used when assessing the massive range of Homebrewing techniques that exist, and whether stressing over some particular detail may or may not be worth investing time or money into.. 

If you listen to the podcast interviews with the guys from brulosophy, despite results being statistically unable to be detected, most of the time they don't change their existing brewing techniques based on the result.. They often reinforce that it's one result from a single test. It's a result, but it's a discussion point and not the definitive answer to that question being tested..


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## Chris79 (27/2/17)

Wasn't aware there was such strong opinions of Brulosophy! 

Sydney water pointed me to some of their info I had already found.

In the report I could only see sulphate and zinc, and not Sodium/Na, Calcium/Ca, Magnesium/Mg, Bicarbonate. They said "The characteristics listed in the report are the ones we test for. This may not include all the elements you would like measured. A private water testing company may be able to do testing specific to your needs."

http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdk2/~edisp/dd_096731.pdf - check out page 24-25 and page 52-53.

Where should I look next for these answers?

Cheers


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## MHB (27/2/17)

Just looked at the report again, what are you missing? I think most of what you need is there, follow the link and remember there are two pages.
Mark


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## Chris79 (1/3/17)

Ok thanks Mark. I'll have a closure look. When I last looked I couldn't see Sodium, Cal, Mag, Bicarbonate. I'll double check


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## kaiserben (1/3/17)

I don't think that link is the report you want. 

Go to this link: http://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/water-the-environment/how-we-manage-sydney-s-water/safe-drinking-water/water-analysis/index.htm and then plug your address in the box under where it says "Enter your street address below to see the qualities of your local drinking water." 

Then it will tell you what water supply system you are in (for me it's Potts Hill) and it'll also provide a fresh link. For me it Water analysis: Potts Hill Delivery System

That PDF (or the one for your area) contains everything you need for brewing purposes.


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## Chris79 (1/3/17)

Thanks Kaiserben. I may have been unclear on what I was needing to look for before, when I found my way to that link to plug in my address. 

I did so again, my water is from Prospect/Prospect North.

Do I use the data from the gray column? You're right MHB it has most of what I need, but I can't seen Bicarbonate and Carbonate values.

Mag and Cal are under physical characteristics and Inorganic chemicals. From under which heading do you use the data from with them?

Cheers 

View attachment Prospect North water.pdf


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## kaiserben (1/3/17)

Chris79 said:


> Do I use the data from the gray column?



Yep. Just use a number roughly in the middle of each the ranges listed.


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## mstrelan (1/3/17)

Chris79 said:


> You're right MHB it has most of what I need, but I can't seen Bicarbonate and Carbonate values.


I believe it can be derived the other values.

Bicarbonate (ppm) = Alkalinity as CaCO3 / 50 * 61


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## Chris79 (1/3/17)

kaiserben said:


> Yep. Just use a number roughly in the middle of each the ranges listed.


great. Looking forward dialling in my mash pH some more!


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## Chris79 (1/3/17)

mstrelan said:


> I believe it can be derived the other values.
> 
> Bicarbonate (ppm) = Alkalinity as CaCO3 / 50 * 61


great, mstrelan. Definitely an area I don't yet understand too well and am looking forward to learning and making greater tasting beer!


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## /// (3/3/17)

Ahh you guys are no fun. Where's the mention of calcium being a nutrient to yeast, helps with trub formation, forms an ionic bridge to help yeast floc (it's a metal after all) apart from binding with phosphorous to form phytic acid (hence the oh drop)

Keep it simple, 5gm per 20l is a good start. For 20-50l not really worth doing he molar or computer based calcs.


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## Chris79 (3/3/17)

/// - just 5g of calcium what? I'm not clear on my understanding of these things yet.

Attached is my water report and Brun. In Brun I've been able to fill out the water report tab, can't find Carbonate in the report. I don't know if it goes by an other name. Also under Alkalinity conversion not sure what to put in the first cell. As I can see total hardness and not temp hardness in the report. I can see alkalinity, should I just enter that?

I have filled out the grain bill input (Dark Ale). 

View attachment Prospect North water.pdf


View attachment Brun Water 1.18.xls


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## Jack of all biers (3/3/17)

You can't find Carbonate (CO3), because you are looking for only Carbonate, which your water company won't calculate for you. You will need to do a calculation as they haven't provided it and well.....

It's complicated http://comp.uark.edu/~ksteele/hc2004/ALKALINITY-%20CALCULATION.htm


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## Jack of all biers (4/3/17)

If the calculations on the link I made above are correct then your CO3 level is ~31.5 ppm. That's if I understood it correctly that is..... and did I mention, I'm on my 3rd long neck


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## MHB (4/3/17)

/// said:


> Ahh you guys are no fun. Where's the mention of calcium being a nutrient to yeast, helps with trub formation, forms an ionic bridge to help yeast floc (it's a metal after all) apart from binding with phosphorous to form phytic acid (hence the oh drop)
> 
> Keep it simple, 5gm per 20l is a good start. For 20-50l not really worth doing he molar or computer based calcs.





Chris79 said:


> /// - just 5g of calcium what? I'm not clear on my understanding of these things yet.
> 
> Attached is my water report and Brun. In Brun I've been able to fill out the water report tab, can't find Carbonate in the report. I don't know if it goes by an other name. Also under Alkalinity conversion not sure what to put in the first cell. As I can see total hardness and not temp hardness in the report. I can see alkalinity, should I just enter that?
> 
> I have filled out the grain bill input (Dark Ale).


Well it isn't going to matter much, CaSO4 Di-Hydrate is 23% Calcium and CaCl2 Di-Hydrate is 27% Ca. These being the two most common forms that the salts are available in. So if we added 5g of either (or a mixture of both) as per Scotties instruction, just to keep it simple lets call it 25% Ca.

5g * 0.25 = 1.25g of Ca (1250mg)
1250mg/20L = 62.5mg/L (or ppm if you prefer)
Add that to the Ca already in the water and you are well inside the 50-100ppm recommended as a minimum amount of Ca required to do the job i.e. _"calcium being a nutrient to yeast, helps with trub formation, forms an ionic bridge to help yeast floc (it's a metal after all) apart from binding with phosphorous to form phytic acid"_
If you do as /// said you will be close to the "right" answer - and lets face it, better to get it close to right and get on with making decent beer than trying to work out that 4.7g or 5.5g would be a slightly better answer.
If you want to understand water chemistry, you need to start with the basics and build your knowledge. But start by keeping it simple, add 50 to 100ppm of Ca and if you really care get a decent pH meter and adjust the pH.
Mark


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## /// (4/3/17)

5gm or a teaspoon of chloride, or sulphate or combination of both. Some is better than none


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## Chris79 (4/3/17)

Jack of all biers said:


> If the calculations on the link I made above are correct then your CO3 level is ~31.5 ppm. That's if I understood it correctly that is..... and did I mention, I'm on my 3rd long neck


Thanks for doing the calculation Jack. FYI the link doesn't work.




MHB said:


> Well it isn't going to matter much, CaSO4 Di-Hydrate is 23% Calcium and CaCl2 Di-Hydrate is 27% Ca. These being the two most common forms that the salts are available in. So if we added 5g of either (or a mixture of both) as per Scotties instruction, just to keep it simple lets call it 25% Ca.
> 
> 5g * 0.25 = 1.25g of Ca (1250mg)
> 1250mg/20L = 62.5mg/L (or ppm if you prefer)
> ...


Thanks Mark. Do appreciate the replies and technical explanation.

Yes I do want to spending some time learning this aspect of brewing and as you can tell I do need to start with the basics, as that is were I am at. Re water chemistry, is Palmers water book a good start, or something different?




/// said:


> 5gm or a teaspoon of chloride, or sulphate or combination of both. Some is better than none


Thanks Scottie, that going to be a helpful starting place, like the rest of the replies here :beer:


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/3/17)

Chris79 said:


> Yes I do want to spending some time learning this aspect of brewing and as you can tell I do need to start with the basics, as that is were I am at. Re water chemistry, is Palmers water book a good start, or something different?


Martin Brungard's website is an excellent resource, especially the section on water knowledge.

I also like the water calculator on Brewers Friend, a recent check had their prediction spot on for mash pH.


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## Jack of all biers (5/3/17)

Chris79 said:


> Thanks for doing the calculation Jack. FYI the link doesn't work.


I see what you mean. Try the link via Google  with the one I referred to being the second link with comp.uark.edu at the beginning of the address.

By the way the molar mass calculations for the Prospect North Middle values for both MgCO3 and CaCO3 equates to a total amount of 32.9 ppm CO3 from the two combined. Which is fairly close to the result from the linked calculations. Again, as long as I am calculating correctly that is.

EDIT - tested the link and it works on my computer. If not and you want to find the source, search the words "calculate carbonate from total alkalinity" on Google.


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## Chris79 (5/3/17)

Cheers Lyrebird - I've bookmarked Martin's website/that page. I'll get into that soon. I've started reading Manticle's 10 pg doc, then I'll MHB's thing on water from last Nov.

Cheers Jack. All good, now I know what to search for!


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## Coalminer (6/3/17)

Updated version of Bru'n Water (v 4.2) just released for registered users


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## spudfarmerboy (10/3/17)

MHB said:


> Depends on what you think an "average" home brewer is.
> You don't need a science degree to get the basics right, try reading the Braukaiser section on pH he also covers some of the other issues you have mentioned (L:G stiff mash, temperature steps...) and all in a pretty well worked through way that's not too hard to follow.
> 
> Similarly being suspect, but think about this, the old traditional bush billy tea, put the water, tea and sugar in the billy - cold - bring it to the boil, result is a rich tea with no bitterness (tannin).
> ...


Mark,
These days I am using a single vessel system (really 2 vessel as I have an urn I use to heat sparge water).
I sparge with anywhere from 8L to about 14L, depending on the boil length of time, using water at 76C.
When I had my 3V system I fly sparged and always acidified the sparge water.
The question I have, is, do I need to acidify my sparge water with the single vessel system?
The malt pipe sits on a rack and I pour the sparge water over the top of the grains, let it drain into the kettle until I have my pre boil volume.
If I need to acidify the sparge water, what sort of pH would I be trying to achieve?
Cheers


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## MHB (10/3/17)

At 76oC, it may be a bit less important, 76 isn't really ideal as it wont "mash out" or stop residual enzyme activity and get maximum fluidity of the wort, which are the main aims of mashing out. Ideally as close to 80oC as you can get will work better. Worth noting that by the time 76oC water gets to the grain bed it is probably a couple of degrees cooler.
But (and isn't there always a but) the hotter the more chance you have of extracting tannins, so the more important it is to acidify the sparge water (for both BIAB and sparging), mind you for the miniscule cost of a couple of mL of acid (I prefer Lactic) its well worth acidifying in any/every case.

Depending on the amount of sparge water as a proportion of your total water bill, enough to get the kettle full pH to around 5pH or a touch less, the smaller the sparge volume the lower its pH would need to be, I usually add Calcium Lactate and Lactic Acid to my sparge water and am sparging with about 1/3 of the total water (mostly) so I'm sparging at about 4.7pH, the aim being the right Ca and pH when the kettle is full at the start of the boil, the pH will fall further during the boil.
Mark


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