# Biab, Ph And Tannins



## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

Been reading various threads about ph, tannins, chlorine etc. Gathered that:

1) Alkaline water will leech tannins from the grain despite the right mash temperature.
2) A large water to grain ratio will make it harder to hit the right mash PH (i.e. BIAB)
3) Chloramines in water supply can be treated with sodium met if a carbon filter isn't available

My PH is nearly 8. I tried 3% acidulated malt in my last brew and it was still undrinkable due to tannins. This time around I will try 5.2 stabiliser and use ph strips to measure. Ordered from grain & grape ($5 for 5 could become expensive if I need to measure more than once per batch). I do think I've overcome the chlorine, but the alkalinity is still an issue.

I originally thought Perth (I'm on Maylands/Bayswater border) water would be good for brewing. But the high alkalinity & chlorine/chloramines are causing me all sorts of problems. It seems to me that my water cannot be used unless you are well versed in water chemistry. 

Anyone dealt with similar BIAB problems ? Is the 5.2 stabiliser + PH strips the right approach ? I also read that the 5.2 doesn't work all that well with water that is both soft and alkaline (which I have). I'm happy to get a water profile done and study more details of water chem, but gees I should be able to get a half decent beer by taking some simple measures based on the rough profile of the water??


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## katzke (24/3/09)

foles said:


> and use ph strips to measure. Ordered from grain & grape ($5 for 5 could become expensive if I need to measure more than once per batch).



I read the prices you pay for stuff over there but that seems very high. I got a pill bottle of them for about the same amount of money. They are a plastic strip with about a half cm square of the test paper on the end. Must be 100 of them or more. Maybe you need to shop around.


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## captaincleanoff (24/3/09)

i got an acurate digital PH meter off eBay for about $40. Wouldnt this be the best option?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-PH-Meter-Aquari...%3A1|240%3A1318


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> i got an acurate digital PH meter off eBay for about $40. Wouldnt this be the best option?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-PH-Meter-Aquari...%3A1|240%3A1318




is that the one you have? I'll happily buy it if your pleased the exact same one.


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## RobB (24/3/09)

I live just down the road from you in Mt Hawthorn and my water is fine. Remember, unless it's extremely high or low, the starting pH of your water isn't a major factor in the pH of your wort.

I'm pretty sure I've read that you'll only get chloramine in the goldfields and agricultural areas. Perth metro water should have chlorine, which is easier to deal with.

What colour and style of beer are you aiming for? I BIAB and have no problems with tannins, but then most of my brews are amber/copper or darker.


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## Bribie G (24/3/09)

There was a similar thread a couple of days ago. As posted there, I do BIAB no chill and end up with lovely smooth beers, but as a precaution I've started using pH stabilizer from Ross. Also the water is all from the Solahart and hopefully has had the chlorine driven out of it. 
Certainly I won't do a brew again without the stabilizer, good insurance policy.


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## captaincleanoff (24/3/09)

foles said:


> is that the one you have? I'll happily buy it if your pleased the exact same one.



yep thats the one I have. It says to calibrate it, which is fairly easy.. but mine came perfectly calibrated out of the box, and I havent needed to do it again for almost a year.

I compare it to another PH tester (where you drop the sample into 'tester' liquid) every now and then, and has been consistent for a year.


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

Malty Cultural said:


> I live just down the road from you in Mt Hawthorn and my water is fine. Remember, unless it's extremely high or low, the starting pH of your water isn't a major factor in the pH of your wort.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've read that you'll only get chloramine in the goldfields and agricultural areas. Perth metro water should have chlorine, which is easier to deal with.
> 
> What colour and style of beer are you aiming for? I BIAB and have no problems with tannins, but then most of my brews are amber/copper or darker.



MaltyCultural,
Was aming for a simple APA, with 88% pale ale malt, 6% med crystal, and 6% light munich from memory. Similar to Jamil's recipe, but with Perle, Cascade like a SNPA. Fairly light to copper. What PH are you starting with? How do you treat it? 
Cheers


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## RobB (24/3/09)

foles said:


> MaltyCultural,
> Was aming for a simple APA, with 88% pale ale malt, 6% med crystal, and 6% light munich from memory. Similar to Jamil's recipe, but with Perle, Cascade like a SNPA. Fairly light to copper. What PH are you starting with? How do you treat it?
> Cheers



I've never measured my pH, but I've got my local water analysis at home which would tell me. Actually, it's the Mt Yokine data which someone posted only a few weeks back.

I put the values into the colour chart in How to Brew and it suggests that my ideal beer colour is copper. I haven't played with my water yet, but my best brews and highest efficiencies coincide with what the colour charts tells me.

I use campden tablets (sodium met, I think) to knock out the chlorine as I don't have a filter. If I want to brew something pale, I use acidulated malt. Again, I refer to Palmer's colour chart and use Weyermann's rule of thumb - 1% acidulated malt for each pH decrease of 0.1. From my copper starting point, 3% gets me down to a pale straw colour.

My most recent pale ale was 95% ale malt and 5% medium crystal, so pretty close to yours. It turned out a very orange amber colour which is close enough to my ideal colour that I didn't bother with the acidulated malt.


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

Malty Cultural said:


> I've never measured my pH, but I've got my local water analysis at home which would tell me. Actually, it's the Mt Yokine data which someone posted only a few weeks back.
> 
> I put the values into the colour chart in How to Brew and it suggests that my ideal beer colour is copper. I haven't played with my water yet, but my best brews and highest efficiencies coincide with what the colour charts tells me.
> 
> ...



I've taken a very similar approach - only difference being it didnt work for me :unsure: . Perth suburbs draw water from various sources so I guess it could be possible that my water is different to yours. I will use the PH strips on my next attempt so that I can rule in/out mash PH, and might get onto the Water Corp for more info on my supply. It may not be coming from Mt Yokine.

Interesting thing is the beer tastes pretty good in the fermenter, but deteriorates with time. This may indicate that it could still be the chlorine that is the problem, but i did use sodium met and sat it out overnight - so I have to assume it worked.


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## Stuster (24/3/09)

foles said:


> Interesting thing is the beer tastes pretty good in the fermenter, but deteriorates with time.



That doesn't sound like a water issue to me. Might it be contamination?

What tastes are you getting? Medicinal? Tannic?


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## mesa (24/3/09)

foles said:


> Anyone dealt with similar BIAB problems ? Is the 5.2 stabiliser + PH strips the right approach ? I also read that the 5.2 doesn't work all that well with water that is both soft and alkaline (which I have). I'm happy to get a water profile done and study more details of water chem, but gees I should be able to get a half decent beer by taking some simple measures based on the rough profile of the water??



I'm confused. I though that soft water had very little stuff in it already and that Ph5.2 would work very well on it. Hard water on the other hand if its also alkaline would make life hard for 5.2 (or the malt for that matter). I used pH 5.2 on my last batch. I think I will do a few more with it, I've not yet formed a strong opinion either way (I don't think it did much for my efficiency)

I gave up on Palmers pH stuff after I realised that the calculations did not take into account the mash ratio (I'm doing a more traditional mash, so perhaps anything in the range 2-3L/kg is fine).

I'd just stick standing the water for 12-24 hours before hand to get rid of chlorine. But thats just me, the fewer things I put in the fewer things to stuff up 

You may find this interesting:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...arging_Analysis
Although its about Batch sparging, he includes discussion of no sparge (i.e. BIAB). Specifically, the gravity of a BIAB batch is higher than the gravity of final runnings in a 2 or 3 sparge batch. This suggests that you pH is also lower lower than final runnings in batch sparge and there should be less tannin extraction (assuming length of time is less of a factor than pH)

To be honest I'd be looking for an infection problem before I went looking at water chemistry. Particularly your comment about it getting worse with time. Are you sure its tannins? Have you given a sample to anyone else? There's quite a few guys on here with very good pallets. Or you could take a sample along to a West Coast brewers meeting (I'm not a member but I've tagged along to a couple).


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

mesa said:


> I'm confused. I though that soft water had very little stuff in it already and that Ph5.2 would work very well on it. Hard water on the other hand if its also alkaline would make life hard for 5.2 (or the malt for that matter). I used pH 5.2 on my last batch. I think I will do a few more with it, I've not yet formed a strong opinion either way (I don't think it did much for my efficiency)
> 
> I gave up on Palmers pH stuff after I realised that the calculations did not take into account the mash ratio (I'm doing a more traditional mash, so perhaps anything in the range 2-3L/kg is fine).
> 
> ...



I've had it under the microscope and there was no visible infection. And a couple of knowledgeable people have sampled it.
I'm sure ill get there in the end.


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## RobB (24/3/09)

Have a look at the map on page 6 here.

It looks like Maylands is in the Mt Yokine distribution area, and you'll find a water report in this post.


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

Malty Cultural said:


> Have a look at the map on page 6 here.
> 
> It looks like Maylands is in the Mt Yokine distribution area, and you'll find a water report in this post.




cheers - yeah gave water corp a ring and they sent me the my yokine report.


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## Stuster (24/3/09)

So, it sounds like it's not an infection, but the fact that it gets worse with time seems a bit odd. Again, what sort of flavours are you getting? It might help work out what might be going wrong.


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

Stuster said:


> So, it sounds like it's not an infection, but the fact that it gets worse with time seems a bit odd. Again, what sort of flavours are you getting? It might help work out what might be going wrong.



medicinal, phenolic, harsly bitter - tannic, lingering bitterness. :icon_vomit: 

I've heard from a few people that chlorine can cause a slow deterioration not unlike what i am experiencing. Every beer tastes good towards the end of fermentation, but is rubbish after bottling/kegging.


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## Stuster (24/3/09)

The thing is that these flavours can also be caused by wild yeast. You had this under a microscope, but I guess there's no way you could have told if there were wild yeast as opposed to tame yeast. :lol: 

Anyway, you may well be right and it's the water. Hope you sort it out either way. That medicinal taste is :icon_vomit:


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## eamonnfoley (24/3/09)

Stuster said:


> The thing is that these flavours can also be caused by wild yeast. You had this under a microscope, but I guess there's no way you could have told if there were wild yeast as opposed to tame yeast. :lol:
> 
> Anyway, you may well be right and it's the water. Hope you sort it out either way. That medicinal taste is :icon_vomit:



Thanks mate - ill get there, no surrender!!


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## katzke (25/3/09)

foles said:


> medicinal, phenolic, harsly bitter - tannic, lingering bitterness. :icon_vomit:
> 
> I've heard from a few people that chlorine can cause a slow deterioration not unlike what i am experiencing. Every beer tastes good towards the end of fermentation, but is rubbish after bottling/kegging.



Beer out of the fermentor tastes different so it could be there but you are not catching it.

Are you keeping the fermentor out of the light? It could also be poor transfer technique and oxidation that you are getting in the bottle or keg. It could even be how you are cleaning the bottles and keg.

I think I recall you said you are a new brewer. Have you changed anything from when you started other then brewing all grain?


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## eamonnfoley (25/3/09)

katzke said:


> Beer out of the fermentor tastes different so it could be there but you are not catching it.
> 
> Are you keeping the fermentor out of the light? It could also be poor transfer technique and oxidation that you are getting in the bottle or keg. It could even be how you are cleaning the bottles and keg.
> 
> I think I recall you said you are a new brewer. Have you changed anything from when you started other then brewing all grain?




I'm pretty sure my transfer technique is ok. Nobody could taste any oxidation in the beer samples. My cleaning is standard stuff too (boiling water, steriliser, iodophor), been through all that already. Fermenting in a fridge with a fridgemate.

Only a couple of things out of the ordinary that I'd like to mention - in case they are no-nos.
1) when my BIAB bag/grain was in bucket during boil, I poured the extrawort into brewpot from bucket on a few occasions.
2) I used Ross's keg carbonation technique where you pump CO2 through from the out tube. This was when the keg only contained 14L 
3) My keg still smells a bit of soda when empty.


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## newguy (25/3/09)

foles said:


> Anyone dealt with similar BIAB problems ?



Not quite, but similar. The water in the city where I first started brewing had a pH of 8.9 (all grain). To fix the issue I either cut my brewing water with at least 50% reverse osmosis bought water or I added acid to the tap water. How much acid depends on a lot of factors, but a good starting point is 1ml of acid (phosphoric is best, but lactic will work well) to every 10l of brewing water. Test with pH strips until the pH falls to about 6.5 without any grains added to it.

I've never used the pH 5.2 stuff, but from what I've read about it, it's pretty much foolproof. If you can get your hands on it easily enough, it's probably the best solution.

Edit: If your keg still smells of soda, tear it apart and replace every rubber seal. The odour will go away.


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## eamonnfoley (25/3/09)

newguy said:


> Not quite, but similar. The water in the city where I first started brewing had a pH of 8.9 (all grain). To fix the issue I either cut my brewing water with at least 50% reverse osmosis bought water or I added acid to the tap water. How much acid depends on a lot of factors, but a good starting point is 1ml of acid (phosphoric is best, but lactic will work well) to every 10l of brewing water. Test with pH strips until the pH falls to about 6.5 without any grains added to it.
> 
> I've never used the pH 5.2 stuff, but from what I've read about it, it's pretty much foolproof. If you can get your hands on it easily enough, it's probably the best solution.
> 
> Edit: If your keg still smells of soda, tear it apart and replace every rubber seal. The odour will go away.



Yeah im convinced water is my problem. Got 5.2 & ph strips on the way, so i'm sure ill get there!


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## Thirsty Boy (26/3/09)

You need to test with those strips - the 5.2 will not help you with severely alkaline or acidic water. 

The other thing to consider is that your taste issues might not have to do with the water pH, but with its mineral content and the effect on the flavour profile.

Even if you adjust your mash pH - high sulphate, high carbonate water (those things will still be in there) can make your beer taste harshly bitter and astringent. Whereas high chloride water might make it sweet and cloying.

To me, it could be a yeast infection - or it could be a combination of chlorine giving medicinal, bandaid flavours and water that emphasizes bitterness giving you your harshness and astringency. Send us the information from the water reports when you get them. That'll answer the questions.


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