# AG Hoegaarden



## KHB (18/8/09)

Just noticed the title, should be AG

I have been looking for a clone recipe and have put this together just looking for some feedback.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Garden Of Hoes
Brewer: Ben 
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 45.00 L 
Boil Size: 51.14 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 5.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 16.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.91 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.Grain 45.45 % 
2.35 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBGrain 27.27 % 
2.35 kg Wheat, Torrified (3.3 EBC) Grain 27.27 % 
40.66 gm Hallertauer [6.90 %] (60 min) Hops 15.4 IBU 
40.66 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.90 %] (5 min) Hops 1.3 IBU 
0.27 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
0.27 gm Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) Yeast-Wheat 


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 8.61 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
30 min Protein Rest Add 25.83 L of water at 56.2 C 50.0 C 
30 min Saccharification Add 3.37 L of water and heat to 68.068.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C 

Mashing at 68.c as my system attentuates very well.

How does it look??

Cheers
Scotsman


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## beloz (18/8/09)

Looks like a good recipe....but I would ad some oats(5%) to it.
Gives it a nice silky and smoother taste.

Cheers :icon_chickcheers: 

Beloz


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## Supra-Jim (18/8/09)

not sure if you have a typo there, but 0.27gm for the coriander and orange peel seems a bit low??

Cheers SJ


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## hazard (18/8/09)

beloz said:


> Looks like a good recipe....but I would ad some oats(5%) to it.
> Gives it a nice silky and smoother taste.
> 
> Cheers :icon_chickcheers:
> ...


Traditionally wit is:
barley malt 50%
raw wheat 45% (flaked or torrified is OK)
oats 5%

So yes, add some oats. You may also want to add some rice hulls to aid in lautering - I've made a wit once (using torrified wheat)and didn't use rice hulls, got a big stuck sparge. I would also back off the late hops - I don't think Hoegaarden has a big hop flavour (to my taste anyway). Coriander and orange peel are usually 15-20 grams - I assume 0.27gram is a typo? Jamil also adds 1 gram camomile in his Wit recipe, perhaps add some if you can get it.


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## KHB (18/8/09)

Here is the updated recipe, yes .27gm was a typo will 27gm be enough for a 40lt batch?? Added the rice hulls and oats too.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Garden Of Hoes
Brewer: Ben Sparks
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 45.00 L 
Boil Size: 51.14 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 5.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 19.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
1.00 kg Rice Hulls (0.0 EBC) Adjunct 9.89 % 
3.91 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.Grain 38.71 % 
2.35 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBGrain 23.23 % 
2.35 kg Wheat, Torrified (3.3 EBC) Grain 23.23 % 
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 4.95 % 
40.66 gm Hallertauer [6.90 %] (60 min) Hops 15.1 IBU 
40.70 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.90 %] (20 min)Hops 3.8 IBU 
27.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
27.00 gm Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) Yeast-Wheat 


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 10.11 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
30 min Protein Rest Add 30.33 L of water at 56.2 C 50.0 C 
30 min Saccharification Add 3.96 L of water and heat to 68.068.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C 


Cheers
Scotsman


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## troopa (18/8/09)

Id love to make this as my first AG Wit but i either need to drink less so i can free up the brew fridge or brew more and bottle the extra(only 2 kegs.. shock horror i know) 

Im guessing that this yeast needs similar treatment as a general larger? as in it needs to ferment low and long with a largering period?

Tom

Edit... kids love hitting buttons on keyboards dont they


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## Sammus (18/8/09)

Troopa said:


> Id love to make this as my first AG Wit but i either need to drink less so i can free up the brew fridge or brew more and bottle the extra(only 2 kegs.. shock horror i know)
> 
> Im guessing that this yeast needs similar treatment as a general larger? as in it needs to ferment low and long with a largering period?
> 
> ...



I haven't used this yeast personally, but being a kind of wheat yeast, I'd hazard a guess at no. The wyeast website indicates this is a true top cropping yeast, with optimum ferment temps on the higher side of the spectrum (up to 24C), quite the opposite to a lager yeast.


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## achy02 (18/8/09)

Hi all,

On the yeast topic I brewed a recipe very similiar to this about 4 weeks ago. I brewed as low as I could get it around 12deg , thinking that this would help and while the beer (in its infancy) still has the taste albeit a little on the bitter side it has a distinct egg smell. I put his down to underpitching the yeast in the cold conditions. I may be way off, im hoping it just goes away.

aches


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## Sammus (18/8/09)

Is there a reason people are fermenting these wits so low? I'd be looking to do it at at least 20C...


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## achy02 (18/8/09)

Sammus said:


> Is there a reason people are fermenting these wits so low? I'd be looking to do it at at least 20C...



Simple answer - It seemed like the right idea at the time. I now know that it is not.


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## troopa (18/8/09)

Thanks Sammus.. i dont know where the preconception that this yeast needs lager temps came from.. and i suppose you raised a great point, Being on the net means that we do have access to the Wyeast website and the facts of this strain and others.
Still doesnt explain the issue with the preconception that this needs to be fermented at lower temps. 

Tom


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## Sammus (18/8/09)

yeah thats what I was kinda asking, didn't mean for achy in particular, but I've read it a few times that people want to ferment belgians like lagers. The only reason I can think of is that sometimes it is recommended to 'lager' some belgian beers for a month or two before drinking, but largering in that sense isn't like lagering a lager, its more like storing it in the bottles for a month or more at 10C before drinking it...


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## achy02 (18/8/09)

Sammus said:


> yeah thats what I was kinda asking, didn't mean for achy in particular, but I've read it a few times that people want to ferment belgians like lagers. The only reason I can think of is that sometimes it is recommended to 'lager' some belgian beers for a month or two before drinking, but largering in that sense isn't like lagering a lager, its more like storing it in the bottles for a month or more at 10C before drinking it...


Spot on, that where i stumbled...


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## cdbrown (18/8/09)

For the belgians it's more to do with conditioning it as generally they have high alc content and a whole heap of other flavours which need to mellow a bit.

Wheats ferment quick and want to be drunk fresh.


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## mattbrewer (18/8/09)

Good choice Scotsman.

Beware the witbeer wyeast. Leave at least 1/3 head space or have a blow off tube.

I would double the citrus peel and the taste still won't be that strong. I would also drink it within a month or two as the flavours dissipate and it becomes a sweet boring drink with time.

For that % unmalted wheat I would treat it seperately before throwing in the mash. From memory it is 55deg 20mins, 65deg 20mins and boil for 15mins then throw into your mash. Check the articles to be sure.

Matt


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## 3G (18/8/09)

Scotsman, use a microplane if you have one and use fresh oranges. I put zest from 10 limes in a 40 litre batch and the lime aroma is awesome.
I recken 10 oranges worth of zest would be good for 40 litres.


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## KHB (18/8/09)

3G said:


> Scotsman, use a microplane if you have one and use fresh oranges. I put zest from 10 limes in a 40 litre batch and the lime aroma is awesome.
> I recken 10 oranges worth of zest would be good for 40 litres.




Thats a good idea, saves me drying the zest out at work too.


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## KHB (18/8/09)

mattbrewer said:


> Good choice Scotsman.
> 
> Beware the witbeer wyeast. Leave at least 1/3 head space or have a blow off tube.
> 
> ...




Whats the reason for doing this to the unmalted wheat??


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## mattbrewer (18/8/09)

Scotsman06 said:


> Whats the reason for doing this to the unmalted wheat??




Yeh, probably not absolutely necessary but my last couple I have been using a method recommended by Randy Mosher called American adjuct mash procedure. It's not much more effort and more is extracted more from the adjunct to give a better result. Hard to compare as I've never had two brews together at the same time. However the efficiency is right on the money.

I've had a bit of success using his recommedations.

Matt


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## Phoney (18/8/09)

Scotsman06 said:


> Here is the updated recipe, yes .27gm was a typo will 27gm be enough for a 40lt batch??



I dont think so.

I put 20g of crushed corriander seeds in my last Belgian Wit (23L batch) and I honestly couldnt say that I could taste it.


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## 3G (20/8/09)

Id consider a cereal mash if you go 45% unmalted wheat.
Take the wheat with 250gm per kilo(of the wheat) of malt, sit at 50 for 20 mins, 66 for 30 mins then bring to boil and boil for 20 mins. Just did this with polenta and got 85% eff. 
Id say go 1 gm per litre with the coriander seed and toast them and pound in mortar and pestle.
I m sure brewerires only use dried peel for convenience, imagine zest oranges daily for 1000 litre batches.


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## KHB (20/8/09)

So what would happen if i didnt do a cereal mash?? Lower effiency??
Cheers


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## 3G (20/8/09)

Yeah, i really struggle with conversion with a wit. Add the oats to the wheat as well, maybe go 1.5gm per litre of coriander seeds


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## jonw (20/8/09)

From what I've heard and read, you only need a cereal mash if your unmalted grains are not pre-gelatinised. If you're using rolled oats and torrified wheat, your unmalted grains _are_ gelatinised, so you don't need the separate mash. I would still use a stepped mash, with a stop at ~50 and ~66, and definitely use some rice hulls (I put 250g in my last 40L batch of wit, and runoff was still slow, but at least it didn't stick.)

I fermented mine with WY3944 at 20 degrees - have yet to keg it, so can't tell how how it turned out.

Cheers,

Jon


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## KHB (17/9/09)

3G said:


> Yeah, i really struggle with conversion with a wit. Add the oats to the wheat as well, maybe go 1.5gm per litre of coriander seeds



Would you dry roast these before crushing??


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## DiscoStu (17/9/09)

I posted a similar question [topic="36624"]here[/topic] a couple of weeks back and the advice I got was go for raw wheat to get a more authentic with, read the replies to my post from warrenlw63 about the mash for raw wheat and it not being as hard to handle as people think.

I'm hoping to brew this weekend, if my Belgian Blond ever finishes 1.009 and still going

(edited for spelling, brain not working - not enough caffeine)


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## gap (17/9/09)

Scotsman06 said:


> Would you dry roast these before crushing??




I did not bother dry roasting them. 

Regards

Graeme


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## Josh (17/9/09)

I use 300g of fresh zest of oranges, grapefruits, lemons and lime. It's a bit over the top, but very refreshing in the Summertime.

About 1g/L coriander and 0.5-1g/L hops at 15 mins for an added flavour also.


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## Phoney (18/11/10)

KHB: Any feedback as to how this one went?

Ive got WLP400 sitting in the fridge itching to be used on a wit for summer.


Im thinking something along the lines of this:



BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hoe in the Gaarden
Brewer: Sasha
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 28.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 3.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 19.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.50 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 49.50 % 
1.15 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 22.77 % 
1.15 kg Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 22.77 % 
0.25 kg Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4.95 % 
24.00 gm Hallertauer [5.90 %] (60 min) Hops 15.3 IBU 
23.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.90 %] (20 min)Hops 4.4 IBU 
25.00 gm Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
35.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat 


Mash Schedule: BIAB
Total Grain Weight: 5.05 kg
----------------------------
BIAB
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min BIAB Add 32.00 L of water at 68.6 C 66.0 C 
10 min Mashout Add 0.00 L of water at 78.0 C 78.0 C 


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Truman42 (9/9/13)

Hey gents, keen to hear how these recipes turned out. Also do you guys put your coriander and orange peel in a hop sock or throw them in loose?


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## Dan Pratt (9/9/13)

Hi Truman,

Ive just made my 4th Belgian Witbier for the year and am planning a 5th for xmas. Reading through the thread they sound like good beers.

I just throw the coriander and orange peel in with 5 mins to go with the boil, normally for a 20lt batch 10g of each.

A couple of things I do different is use Wyeast 3463 Forbidden Fruit at 20c, Raw wheat to 60% and Oats to 10% ( Pilsner fills the gap)

Its a refreshing beer style and from what i have read Hoegaarden use the FF yeast for their witbier.

Dan


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## technobabble66 (9/9/13)

So for the raw wheat & oats, have you just thrown them in the regular mash? Or do you cook/boil them first? 
Is there a large difference between using raw & malted wheat?


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## seamad (9/9/13)

I just use them raw, do a long ramp mash over 2 hours. Allow for 15% efficiency reduction though otherwise your numbers will be out. Raw wheat gives a more authentic flavour , more tangy ?


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## RelaxedBrewer (9/9/13)

technobabble66 said:


> So for the raw wheat & oats, have you just thrown them in the regular mash? Or do you cook/boil them first?
> Is there a large difference between using raw & malted wheat?


It depends on what type of raw wheat you are using. Raw wheat need to gelatinised to make the starches accessible. Things like flaked and torrified wheat have already been gelatinised. This can be used as normal in the mash.

Other raw wheats need to gelatinised before their starches can be converted to fermentable sugars. Luckily wheat gelatinises from 52-64C. 

I use a step mash for my Wits. A acid rest that a rest that stops the raw wheat from gluing up and a protein rest that also helps with the gelatinisation of the wheat.


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## NewtownClown (9/9/13)

Pratty1 said:


> Hi Truman,
> 
> Ive just made my 4th Belgian Witbier for the year and am planning a 5th for xmas. Reading through the thread they sound like good beers.
> 
> ...


 I like the sound of this.
Absolutely adore Forbidden Fruit and have some in the fridge....
Thanks Dan
Looks like the planned Saison will become a wit with FF!


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## RelaxedBrewer (9/9/13)

Pratty1 said:


> from what i have read Hoegaarden use the FF yeast for their witbier.


From my research and tasting I am pretty sure that 3944 or WLP 400 were made from the Hoegaarden yeast


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## Dan Pratt (9/9/13)

technobabble66 said:


> So for the raw wheat & oats, have you just thrown them in the regular mash? Or do you cook/boil them first?
> Is there a large difference between using raw & malted wheat?


Techno - I used Raw wheat after trying flaked, torrified and malted. The Raw really improves the beer, i had previoulsy posted in another thread that i would change that but after finihsing the keg and bottles its staying in the recipe.... h34r: . Ive been step mashing on the BM, mashing in at 20c for about a 30 min hydration rest with the pump running and stopping at 40c/10, 52c/10 and going for a longer rest at 66c/90.

I have had lower efficiency % with the higher raw wheat content and would lower the raw wheat malt content to 50% for the next brew. I have found that the oats give a good smoothness to the finished beer.

Newtown - i havent tried one with the just the Belgian Witbier so i cant compare but the aroma from this yeast and the overall flavour of the beer give me no reason to not use it.


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## technobabble66 (9/9/13)

I'm looking at doing a K&K plus grains combo. So the grains element would be a kilo or so, made up of wheat, oats, & maybe carahell &/or vienna. 
As the grains are a small quantity, i'm happy to dick around with some excessively complicated mash process. Well, at least more than the previous 2-step i did.

So, RB & seamad, what step regime did you use/recommend? 52°C for 30min, 65°C for 40min, 72°C for 10min 76°C mashout; etc?

Btw, i was going to use regular old rolled oats from the supermarket. Is this a "bad" idea?? I've just read a bit on torrified wheat & flaked oats. It sounds like they're quite different from basic raw wheat/oats


EDIT: pre-emptive answers from Pratty1. Thanks!


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## RelaxedBrewer (9/9/13)

You would want you grain to be made up from wheat, oats and pilsner malt (rolled oats or quick oats are fine). 
You need to have some base malt to provide the diastatic power to convert your wheat starches to fermentable sugars (you can't mash the wheat or oats by themselves). 

If you can only do 1kg of grain, I would use 400g wheat, 400g pilsner and 200g oats.

The more grain you can use the better your final product will be as the more raw wheat you can use.


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## seamad (9/9/13)

I dough in at 52 and ramp up to mashout over 2 - 2.5 hours, just set the pid. It was a technique that Tony used for wits. If I changed to a step mash I'd use my normal step of 52/62/72 mashout, but i like a dry finish. The mash regime you outlined would work fine, maybe drop the 52 to 20min, can leave the 65 at that if that's what you normally use/like as it's all personal preference.
Still drop your eff by 15% as the raw wheat takes a toll, but it's cheap and it's easy to add some water if you overshoot and just have a little more beer !
My missus asked me when I was making one, and she picked some coriander from the garden that had gone to seed and has it drying out for me so I'll have to brew one up soon.


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## NewtownClown (9/9/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> From my research and tasting I am pretty sure that 3944 or WLP 400 were made from the Hoegaarden yeast


Hoegaarden wit, sure.
Forbidden Fruit is also from Hoegaarden, from their Verboden Vrucht, to be precise


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## Truman42 (9/9/13)

Pratty1 said:


> Techno - I used Raw wheat after trying flaked, torrified and malted. The Raw really improves the beer, i had previoulsy posted in another thread that i would change that but after finihsing the keg and bottles its staying in the recipe.... h34r: . Ive been step mashing on the BM, mashing in at 20c for about a 30 min hydration rest with the pump running and stopping at 40c/10, 52c/10 and going for a longer rest at 66c/90.
> 
> I have had lower efficiency % with the higher raw wheat content and would lower the raw wheat malt content to 50% for the next brew. I have found that the oats give a good smoothness to the finished beer.
> 
> Newtown - i havent tried one with the just the Belgian Witbier so i cant compare but the aroma from this yeast and the overall flavour of the beer give me no reason to not use it.


Thanks for the info Pratty, so your recipe is
Pilsener 40%
raw wheat 50%
oats10%

Im currently building up a starter of yeast from some Hoegaarden slurry as Ive read this works well to produce the flavour but if it doesnt work will use the forbidden fruit.
I will also follow your mash schedule with this but do you use a mash out step at all?

Also where do you get raw wheat from as it doesnt seeem that G&G, KK or Core brewing sell it. Do health food shops sell it?

thanks heaps.


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## RelaxedBrewer (9/9/13)

Truman said:


> Im currently building up a starter of yeast from some Hoegaarden slurry as Ive read this works well to produce the flavour but if it doesnt work will use the forbidden fruit.


I am pretty sure the Hoegaarden changed their bottling yeast a few years ago. They now filter and then add a different yeast for bottling.


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## HBHB (9/9/13)

Don't forget a touch of chamomile if you want a "clone".


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## Truman42 (9/9/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> I am pretty sure the Hoegaarden changed their bottling yeast a few years ago. They now filter and then add a different yeast for bottling.


Ah ok then. The post i read may have been a few years old then.


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## Truman42 (9/9/13)

HBHB said:


> Don't forget a touch of chamomile if you want a "clone".


How much is a touch in a 25 litre batch?


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## HBHB (9/9/13)

Not sure Truman. There's lots of chat about it being an important component in a clone, but i'd be keeping it pretty low key in the overall flavour if trying to clone the original product.

http://byo.com/stories/item/1647-witbier-style-profile 

Link talks about only small doses, which makes sense with it having a fairly strong flavour.

It should show up in a google search for what guys have tried dose-wise.

Should put it up on a to-re-do list again sometime before summer. In fact will do one as soon as the bitter orange peel comes back in stock. Great quick keg filler.

Cheers
M


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## Dan Pratt (9/9/13)

Im sipping on a hoegaarden right now, its bloody good! I can say that the belgian witbiers I have brewed are some off the best beers I have made, that's because i wasnt trying to replicate the mentioned beer, I just made it to style. B)

I just went onto my beersmith and checked the detail - 60% raw, 30% Pils and 10% oats. I get the Raw wheat from Newcastle LHBS - Marks Homebrew. I also use EKG hops for 60 mins in the boil to 15-18Ibu, tried saaz but went back to EKG.


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## technobabble66 (9/9/13)

With the orange peel, how important is it to use "bitter orange" peel?
Can I just use the zest from 5 fresh oranges (for 20L batch)? I'm keen for this as I've got a few homegrown blood oranges to test out ;-)


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## Dan2 (10/9/13)

technobabble66 said:


> With the orange peel, how important is it to use "bitter orange" peel?
> Can I just use the zest from 5 fresh oranges (for 20L batch)? I'm keen for this as I've got a few homegrown blood oranges to test out ;-)


Can't comment on the bitter peel, but I've made it with fresh peel from bought valencia/navel and it tastes good.
The first time I peeled fresh then dried it to see what the wet:dry ratio would be. Works out to be pretty much 3:1
So I used 20g dry, then next time 60g fresh (20L)


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## seamad (10/9/13)

Thanks for that dan, wondered what the wet/dry ratio was.
Any citrus peel will do, I've used orange, mandarin, tangerine, and a little bit of lime. All pretty good. I tend to err on the less is better principle and use 15g of peel split into a 10 min and a cube addition. Coriander also requires a light touch imo as too much ruins the beer.


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## Dan Pratt (10/9/13)

Im with you Seamad on the coriander, Im going to back to 7g/10min for a 20lt brew, I went with 10g on the last 2 brews and I can now tell what that is, likely to bump the orange zest up to 12g/10min, small increments.

Thanks Dan2 - i like the idea of using some fresh orange< i have read that before on the IS websites.... How do you get that from the orange peel? i have read you should only grate the orange part and not the white of the peel??


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## HBHB (10/9/13)

technobabble66 said:


> With the orange peel, how important is it to use "bitter orange" peel?
> Can I just use the zest from 5 fresh oranges (for 20L batch)? I'm keen for this as I've got a few homegrown blood oranges to test out ;-)


It's all relative Techno. Commercially, most tend to use the curacao orange peel because it has a bitter finish. I've used a few different ones, each has their own addition and add their own signature.

True to style, I think it'd be bitter as first choice, but it's not an absolute necessity and frankly, without experimentation, brewing's going nowhere.

Must say, IMHO, the bitter does add a nice edge. I've also tried mandarine and lime zest which were pretty good. I also tried some sour orange peel from an Asian grocer and it was nothing short of spectacularly bloody awful. That one fed the gardens.

Next Wit will get a small dose of Chamomile Flowers and the Bitter together, just to see how they work in comparison.

No Rulz Brewz

Martin


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## RelaxedBrewer (10/9/13)

I have always used the zest from fresh oranges (never tired the bitter peel). I have found that the flavour from the orange peel can vary a fair bit. It must depend on the amount of oils in the peel or something. Now I use the zest of 3 oranges in a 20L batch and taste after primary fermentation is complete. If there is not enough of the orange flavour I dry hop/peel with some more for a couple of days.

Also make sure you do not add the white pith from the orange as it has a very unpleasant bitter flavour. I just use a potato peeler and try to only remove the orange surface and leave the white behind.


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## technobabble66 (10/9/13)

This might be a silly question, but ... why do we not use the "citrus flavour/aroma" hops - like citra, etc - in this style??

I'm assuming it's because of the excessive bittering the hops add (to get the flavour input, i believe you'd need to add them at the 15-20min mark, so you'd get some moderate bitterness out of the hops).

I was wondering simply because it sounds like this bitter "curacao peel" is the better option due to the slight bitterness it adds to the balance. (though obviously fresh or non-curacao seems to work well, also). Maybe this could carefully be done using Citra, etc?

Has anyone experimented with using the citrus hops in a Hoey clone?


Btw, thanks for the great answers for my many questions - you're v quickly clarifying a few things i've been unsure of for a while (& hopefully others!), & i'm looking at a hoey clone for the next brew.


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## RelaxedBrewer (10/9/13)

Well, I would say that even though we use words like citrus to describe hops they have a different flavour to actual citrus zest. If you want something true to style I don't think you would get it by using hops instead of zest. It might be good, just a bit different though.

Witbeir is one of my all time favourite beers and the beer that I have worked on the most. My latest brew was very very close to Hoegaargen when doing a side by side comparison (mine had slightly more of raw wheat flavour and was obviously a bit fresher). In that batch I used plain flour as the raw wheat. I am going to enter it into the vicbrew comp and see what they say. Some of the citrus and spice flavours are fading with time but hopefully the last enough till then.

I am almost out of that batch and I am brewing my next batch this weekend. I can let you know how this one goes.


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## NewtownClown (10/9/13)

When it comes to coriander seeds I always crush a few and taste and smell them. Some are fresher than others and they degrade considerably over time. One size doesn't fit all... I have used from 10g to 25g

Also, there are two types of coriander seed, Indian and "other" (European?). The Indian are almost oval and are usually found in Asian groceries. It was either Mosher or Zainasheff that said they impart a better spice note whilst too much of the 'other" coriander can give a celery seed taste.


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## RelaxedBrewer (10/9/13)

NewtownClown said:


> When it comes to coriander seeds I always crush a few and taste and smell them. Some are fresher than others and they degrade considerably over time. One size doesn't fit all... I have used from 10g to 25g
> 
> Also, there are two types of coriander seed, Indian and "other" (European?). The Indian are almost oval and are usually found in Asian groceries. It was either Mosher or Zainasheff that said they impart a better spice note whilst too much of the 'other" coriander can give a celery seed taste.


I have to agree 100% with this. I have also used 10-28g depending on the coriander. It really depends on how fresh the seeds are and how strong they started.

You want the type that smells citrusy when you crush it. I have actually been using my on coriander that I dried from a plant I let go to seed.


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## Black Devil Dog (10/9/13)

My one and only dumper was a wit attempt, I can't recall the exact recipe, other than it was a K&K brew. I think the killer though, was putting about 20g of navel orange peel and 20 g of crushed coriander into the fermenter for the duration of the ferment. :icon_vomit:

It was a ******* howler. Seriously, it felt like my teeth were being dissolved as I drank it.

I've recently tried again, this time A.G and there has been some improvement, except for a sort of faint "ham" aroma. :huh:


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## Dan2 (11/9/13)

Pratty1 said:


> .. Dan2 .... How do you get that from the orange peel? i have read you should only grate the orange part and not the white of the peel??


I used a very sharp thin knife and a little patience. Tried a zester briefly but just made a mess. Yep - leave the pith behind



Black Devil Dog said:


> I've recently tried again, this time A.G and there has been some improvement, except for a sort of faint "ham" aroma. :huh:


Wy 3944 can work slowly. My first took about 8-10 days to hit FG, and another 4-5 for krausen to drop. Those last days were critical - yeast cleaned up their mess. At day 10 it tasted foul. 2nd one (on repitched slurry) worked quicker, but krausen still stayed high, plenty of gas still in solution, and REALLY muddy until the 2 week mark.


My only gripe with the style is - not a good kegger. I'm at about 1/3 - 1/2 a keg left and it's clearing up (yeast slowly settled and drawn out with first half. And the suspended yeast is a big part of the flavour/mouthfeel. I'll be looking at bottling :angry: Wit in the future


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## Dan Pratt (11/9/13)

Dan2 said:


> I
> 
> 
> My only gripe with the style is - not a good kegger. I'm at about 1/3 - 1/2 a keg left and it's clearing up (yeast slowly settled and drawn out with first half. And the suspended yeast is a big part of the flavour/mouthfeel. I'll be looking at bottling :angry: Wit in the future



Hey Dan2,

Your right its not a good keeging style but it is possible.......

My last batch I kegged and carbonated, it really needed a few more days in the FV but i was a bit impatient , it was pretty much a white glass of beer/yeast.

My LHBS gave me a tip and it cleared the beer no worries.

I removed the chilled keg from the fridge, purged the keg and left it at room temp for 2 days. During the 2 days when ever I was near the keg I would pull the purge valve and release the pressure. After 2 days I added the smallest amount of CO2 pressure at about 5-10kpa, just enough to get a reading on the dial, turned on the tap and removed all the yeast slurry. Threw it back in the fridge, when it cooled to 4c carbed it at 120kpa for a day or so and boom - nice golden hazey beer. 

The recent batch I kegged on monday night I left over night in the fridge to chill to 4c, kinda like a cold crash, again added some CO2 and removed all the fallen yeast, should be right to drink this friday night. Give that a try with the keg you have, it wont spoil if you dont take the lid off and let air or anything else in.


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## Dan2 (11/9/13)

Pratty1 said:


> nice golden hazey beer.


But the point is - it's supposed to be cloudy/yeasty.
What I was getting at is that the first week or so pulled the yeast out as I drank it and it settled more. And it was really good.
But now that the yeast is gone and it is clear, I'm not liking it as much.


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## Dan Pratt (11/9/13)

Dan2 said:


> But the point is - it's supposed to be cloudy/yeasty.
> What I was getting at is that the first week or so pulled the yeast out as I drank it and it settled more. And it was really good.
> But now that the yeast is gone and it is clear, I'm not liking it as much.


ahh I see. I had that with the 2 batches at the start of the year, both went like a golden ale, not that hazey golden yeasty look after a while in the keg.

I researched why and some suggested a 60min boil instead of 90mins. Cant quite recall the actual reason they stated to reduce the boil time (anyone?) but it worked so I now do a 60min boil with this style.


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## RelaxedBrewer (11/9/13)

Pratty1 said:


> ahh I see. I had that with the 2 batches at the start of the year, both went like a golden ale, not that hazey golden yeasty look after a while in the keg.
> 
> I researched why and some suggested a 60min boil instead of 90mins. Cant quite recall the actual reason they stated to reduce the boil time (anyone?) but it worked so I now do a 60min boil with this style.



I thought a witbeir was supposed to be cloudy from suspended proteins from the un-malted wheat, not the yeast.

A hefeweisen is cloudy from the yeast.

If you are doing a protein rest around 50C you are breaking down these proteins that make the beer cloudy. If you are doing this rest you might want to make it shorter or change the temp of this rest.


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## Dan Pratt (11/9/13)

Hmmm. Interesting. I will review the 50c rest. 

I thought the haze was from the yeast and no whirfloc clearing tablet used. Proteins...righto...thanks RB.


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## Brewz (11/9/13)

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54122-recipedb-bullshead-witbier/


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## RelaxedBrewer (11/9/13)

I do a acid rest then slowly ramp up to saccharification temps over about 40 mins.

The acid rest (42C) stops the wheat from making glue (I have started using flour as my raw wheat)

The slow ramp helps to gelatinise the raw wheat (52-64C). 

I don't think we actually want a protein rest for the purposes that they are used in other beers. There are 2 temperature ranges that people do a protein rest at in other beers. One of them breaks down the proteins that cause chill haze and help clear the beer (this is the rest I was talking about in Pratty1s post). The other breaks down proteins that help with head retention and the body of the beer (Have a read of Palmers how to brew

With a Wit we just want the mash to gelatinise the wheat before we get to the saccharification rest. We want to keep the haze and head retention/body. I decided top do the ramp so I did not keep the mash in either of the protein rest temps for to long while still gelatinising the wheat.

It is a little complex but from my experience and research I am pretty sure this info is correct.

RB


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## Papa Lazarou (11/9/13)

Dan2 said:


> My only gripe with the style is - not a good kegger. I'm at about 1/3 - 1/2 a keg left and it's clearing up (yeast slowly settled and drawn out with first half. And the suspended yeast is a big part of the flavour/mouthfeel. I'll be looking at bottling :angry: Wit in the future


I did an kit and extract wheat beer last year and about 1/2 the keg came out clear like a kristallweizen, I quite liked it as it seemed more tart and had a crisp finish, like 2 beers in 1 keg. You could leave your keg upsidedown until it goes on tap if you want it yeasty longer.
I also used yeast recultured from Hoegaarden, from memory it was quite a slow working yeast and stayed in suspension for a long time.


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## technobabble66 (12/9/13)

I have a WLP 351 (Weizen) sitting in the fridge.
Would that work for this clone?
If not, what would the result be if i brewed this grain bill + peel/coriander using this yeast?

(yes, i'm new to wheat-based beers!)


Edit: before someone replies "a weizen!", i'm looking a bit more for a comparison in tastes, etc...


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## Truman42 (21/9/13)

gents,

Im brewing this tomorrow using 40% pilsner 50% torrified wheat (Couldnt get raw) and 10% oats. Just wondering what mash schedule I should use on this as most posts here relating to mash schedules are about using raw wheat.

I currently use
55C/5
62C/35
72C/20
77C/5

Also i brought some orange peel candy from the spice shop which just has orange peel, sugar, honey and fruit acid. Any tried this in place of fresh orange peel?

Thanks,


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## tazman1967 (21/9/13)

RelaxedBrewer, post 67 I think is on the money.. Drop your 55C rest to 42C for 10min. Then ramp up to your Sacc. Temp.


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## Truman42 (21/9/13)

tazman1967 said:


> RelaxedBrewer, post 67 I think is on the money.. Drop your 55C rest to 42C for 10min. Then ramp up to your Sacc. Temp.


But I thought that was only if your using raw wheat. Im using torrified wheat


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## tazman1967 (21/9/13)

Yes.. but torrifed wheat is still not malted wheat, or a highly modified grain. It still needs to treated like unmalted wheat IMHO.
Its a good sub for unmalted wheat.


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## Truman42 (21/9/13)

So something like

42C/20 mins
then raise to 64c over 40 mins
64C/30  mins
77C/10 mins

Would that work?


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## tazman1967 (21/9/13)

Yeap..you only need 15m at 42C then ramp it..


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## Truman42 (22/9/13)

Cheers Tazman, now just to work out the steps for the PID and I'm in business.


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## mje1980 (22/9/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> My one and only dumper was a wit attempt, I can't recall the exact recipe, other than it was a K&K brew. I think the killer though, was putting about 20g of navel orange peel and 20 g of crushed coriander into the fermenter for the duration of the ferment. :icon_vomit:
> 
> It was a ******* howler. Seriously, it felt like my teeth were being dissolved as I drank it.
> 
> I've recently tried again, this time A.G and there has been some improvement, except for a sort of faint "ham" aroma. :huh:


The "ham" aroma is most likely from the type of coriander seed. Hunt down some Indian coriander seeds. Last one I made I found a few threads on the intermanet thingy about different types of seeds to use. Indian was recommended and I used those. No ham aroma and was very nice.


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## Truman42 (23/9/13)

Brewed this yesterday using 50% toriffied wheat, 40% pilsener and 10% flaked oats, but had a few dramas.

Ez water calc said my Ph was up around 5.8. Even though I did an acid rest I decied to also add 2 grams of citric Acid. My mash ph ended up being very low as a result. I did an iodine test and had complete conversion though.

The other problem was out of 38 litres of hot liquor I ended up with 36 litres in the kettle instead of 30 litres. My grain absorption figures are usually spot on so Im guessing its because the wheat didn't absorb any water. My gravity at SOB was 1.037 so I boiled it back to 30 litres before starting my 60 min hop addition and going from there. Ended up at 1.048 EOB (2 points down from recipe) but my wort was certainly a lot darker than a straw couloured wheat beer. More like an orange. Oh well hopefully it will taste okay.


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## seamad (20/10/13)

Just finished a double of wit on my new 3V rims system and pretty stoked. Took on board some pointers from members ( thanks relaxed brewer and others )
Hit 78% eff into fermenter.
Grist was:
weyermann pale pils 50%
raw wheat 37%
lowan rolled oats 5%
golden naked oats 5%
acid malt 3%

Ran the grain through the mill @ 1.35mm twice ( bigger gap than usual ) ..mil rpm @ 300 with dc bike motor.

Doughed in with 1/2 water at 41 C and left for 20 minutes, slowly got the flow going through the rims tube over the next 10 minutes then the PID ramped up to 62 over an hour, ten minutes at 62 then another ten at 72 then 76. Drained into kettle and underlet the remaing water (78 C) for quick recirc then into kettle.
Had excellent flow throughout and not a hint of a stuck sparge. I might mill all my grain like this from now on and see how it turns out.
Bittered with calypso 12 ibu at 45min
Ran 25L into cube for a raspberry saison with 3711
The remaining 22l i ran through the hop rocket with 3 orange skins (zest only) and some fresh toasted homegrown coriander seeds and 20g motueka flowers, pitched some 3944 onto it.
Smelt and tasted good, will see how it turns out.


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## Truman42 (20/10/13)

Sounds good Seamad. I'm drinking mine out of the keg now and it's very enjoyable.

Only thing I don't like is the orange flavour dominates just a bit too much. I used 60 grams of fresh orange zest. I think next time I will halve this amount.


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## seamad (20/10/13)

Yeah that sounds a lot for a single batch. Mine weighed @ 30g.I reckon less is better, if underdone you can always do what teh germans/dutchies do and wack a wedge of some citrus in the glass.
All my kegs are empty at present, but did 2 brews today, 2 brews in fermenter in fridges and 2 cubed to follow so things are on the up.


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## malt_shovel (30/10/13)

Thanks for posting the recipe
Looks good for my christmas day family beers. How long do you think from grain to glass? I was thinking four weeks would be peak but not familiar with brewing wits.
Cheers


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## Byran (31/10/13)

Just made a 20l batch. First time making a witbier in the Hoegaarden style with the orange zest and coriander. Smells great and tastes great from the boil. Trying to revive a bit of WLP 351 I have had in the fridge for about 6 months so i can get this baby cranking.


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## seamad (1/11/13)

malt_shovel said:


> Thanks for posting the recipe
> Looks good for my christmas day family beers. How long do you think from grain to glass? I was thinking four weeks would be peak but not familiar with brewing wits.
> Cheers


For what it's worth , pitched mine on the Sunday, was firing Monday morning.Following Tuesday night set the ferm fridge to 0, and will keg/force carb @ lunchtime today and will be enjoying the first one this arvo, as I'm out of kegs and the weather is warming up I might not have any left in a month :chug:


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## Screwtop (1/11/13)

Been using this base recipe for 6 years with very good results, originally from Chad I believe. Flour mixed to a paste with some water and added to the boil 5 min prior to flameout provides good haze. 

Screwy

```
Witbier - All Grain single batch

Boil Size: 36 l

OG: 1.048 SG
Color: 3.2 SRM
IBU: 22.8 IBUs

Boil Time: 90 Minutes



2.550 kg Pilsner
1.150 kg Wheat Malt     
1.150 kg Wheat, Torrified  
0.250 kg Oats, Flaked
0.080 kg Acidulated Malt

25.00 g Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min
20.00 g Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 30.0 min

1.00 tsp Cooking Salt (Boil 30.0 mins)

20.00 g Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min

1.00 tbsp Wheat Flour (Boil 5.0 mins)
18.00 g Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins)
12.00 g Coriander Seed crushed (Boil 5.0 mins)

1.0 pkg Wyeast 3944
```


```
Mash Schedule

Protein Rest  53.00 C       30 min        
Saccrification 64.00 C       60 min        
Mash Out       77.00 C       20 min        


FG: 1.008  AA: 84.03
```


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