# Terror suspect shot dead in Melbourne suburb.



## wide eyed and legless (24/9/14)

Finding it hard to get my head around the actions of two police officers, inviting a terror suspect to come down to the station for a chat! One of the officers in a critical condition and another in a satisfactory condition after being stabbed.
What has happened to a dawn raid, a bit of biffo and then dragging the stupid teenager to the station to be questioned. It does seem rather embarrassing when the world media run with the terrorist story.


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## Bribie G (24/9/14)

It's all part of the plan.

Quite apart from diverting attention from the LNPs destruction of Medicare and Welfare and the rise of the Murdochracy, eventually marching in support of higher pay for nurses, or protesting at a farm gate about Fracking will be covered by terrorist legislation creep.

Note that Hockey has been put in a cupboard and hasn't been in the media for a month since the ISIS absolute godsend to Toned Abs.

And how about that police chief's uniform? Straight out of Robocop.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

Joe hasnt said much after he told the NZ press that there was no budget emergancy and basically everthing was OK.


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## Mardoo (24/9/14)

When I first read the article I found myself wondering what a "terror suspect" actually is. Usually a suspect is suspected of committing an act that already happened. I don't mean to deny that clearly the guy was a danger to someone. However Abbot talking about giving up freedoms for security makes me veeeeeery nervous, just as it did when George W Bush founded the eloquently named "Homeland Security" in the States. Maybe we'll go for "Fatherland Security" here, and brown shirts. 

People who want to be in power always want more, whatever the cost.


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## panzerd18 (24/9/14)

The media propaganda machine is in full swing. 

Keeping the population in fear and fighting against each other. The classic divide and conquer technique. 

A population in fear are much more controllable.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

Which just happened to be Hitlers view and methods. Scary stuff.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/9/14)

Watch out or your freedom of speech will be next.
I have seen this coming for quite some time and people said I needed a foil hat.
Ha


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## Mardoo (24/9/14)

Entrenched plutocracy needs a well controlled and distracted populace to pull off massive coups like globalization of trade laws that will only benefit the few. But that's not happening, now is it?


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## tazman1967 (24/9/14)

Welcome to the Police State..
More power for the Authorities, less right for citizens..
Got a familiar ring to it ???


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

No.....wait.....just need to consult a Murdoch paper.......


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

tazman1967 said:


> Welcome to the Police State..
> More power for the Authorities, less right for citizens..
> Got a familiar ring to it ???


Campbell Newmans got your back.


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## manticle (24/9/14)

To be fair, the guy did stab 2 people before being shot.
I'd wager psychiatric illness is a factor in his behaviour, including his shopping centre behaviour.
Not fond of what this new terror threat is going to mean in terms of possible legislation changes.
We don't need draconian laws (or any new laws) to deal with any threat but it's always trotted out as an excuse.


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## Mardoo (24/9/14)

I see most of the posts here questioning the media and political response, not the police officers protecting themselves.


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## madpierre06 (24/9/14)

Bribie G said:


> It's all part of the plan.
> 
> Quite apart from diverting attention from the LNPs destruction of Medicare and Welfare and the rise of the Murdochracy, eventually marching in support of higher pay for nurses, or protesting at a farm gate about Fracking will be covered by terrorist legislation creep.


Qld's anti bikie laws, which do not specifically mention bikies, already cover such protests/organised group actions which is why all states are watching closely how they survive the court challenge to them. 



Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Watch out or your freedom of speech will be next.
> I have seen this coming for quite some time and people said I needed a foil hat.
> Ha


Agree completely, even down to the foil hat. And freedom of speech will not be the final popint of call. 

http://www.wired.com/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1

Australian telco's have already given US spy agencies go aheads to covertly listen in electronically to australian digital conversations.


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## wide eyed and legless (24/9/14)

I wondered myself why did the police call him a terror suspect instead of a stupid boy, was it because they shot him?
The Victorian police are renown for being trigger happy even though they had good cause this time they probably thought it would be a little less embarrassing to call him a terror suspect even though they asked him to pop into the station for a chat, I can't imagine any police force in the world asking a terror suspect to pop in to the station for a chat. 
If he did have mental problems which I also believe he had, how will that be explained?


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## browndog (24/9/14)

Yes, lets just sit back and wait for a Boston Marathon event to occur in Australia and then go, oh shit. Good on the Pollies and good on the cops for all they do. My 2c.


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## panzerd18 (24/9/14)

Another false flag attack another excuse to further their agenda.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

I think the police where probabaly right in shooting him after he stabbed them......when you look at the actuall incident they where within there legal rights and obligation.

The fact that he may have been on the radar as a terror suspect is secondry to the reason he was shot and killed


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## Proffs (24/9/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I think the police where probabaly right in shooting him after he stabbed them......when you look at the actuall incident they where within there legal rights and obligation.
> 
> The fact that he may have been on the radar as a terror suspect is secondry to the reason he was shot and killed


This makes the most sense to me. Irregardless of the circumstances, the bloke stabbed two cops and deserved to be killed.


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## Blind Dog (24/9/14)

Mardoo said:


> Entrenched plutocracy needs a well controlled and distracted populace to pull off massive coups like globalization of trade laws that will only benefit the few. But that's not happening, now is it?


Nope it's not happening now.

It's already done and dusted.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

This is well worth watching. Especially at about the 4min mark. The woman makes the most rational statement that I have heard for a long time

http://youtu.be/nrmwB0bwtYQ


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/9/14)

So if some one stabs me I can kill them, I think not.
I dont know the full story but killing someone is a big call.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

Ok. Here is how it went

Police asked the offender to come in for a chat
The offender went to the police station to have a chat, but refused to go inside, instead asking the police officers to meet him in the car park
2 police officers went outside to meet him in the carpark
As one of them went to shake his hand and introduce himself he stabbed the officer
He then went to stab the 2nd officer who drew his gun and shot him

What would you have done ?


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## philmud (24/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> So if some one stabs me I can kill them, I think not.


No, but if cops witness it they'll use lethal force to try and save your life. I think there's some heinous shit going on surrounding this incident and the trumped up fear of terrorism at the moment, but one of those cops was very badly injured. Sounds like it was a clean shooting from what I've read so far.


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## manticle (24/9/14)

If someone stabbed you and you reasonably feared for your safety (as you might) and you exercised reasonable force to defend yourself then yes. Cops carry handguns, most citizens don't but if the reports are true, no-one has much right to question the decisions of the officers to draw.
It's how the story gets played out and is manipulated (spin, media etc) that is interesting and scary at the same time.


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## Eagleburger (24/9/14)

Costing us tax payer $500 mil/yr to incite the other side of the coin.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

manticle said:


> If someone stabbed you and you reasonably feared for your safety (as you might) and you exercised reasonable force to defend yourself then yes. Cops carry handguns, most citizens don't but if the reports are true, no-one has much right to question the decisions of the officers to draw.
> It's how the *Murdoch Press* manipulated (spin, media etc) that is interesting and scary at the same time.


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## Blind Dog (24/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> So if some one stabs me I can kill them, I think not.
> I dont know the full story but killing someone is a big call.


If your life or safety is at risk, you have every right to use appropriate force to defend yourself. 

If someone's just stabbed his colleague and is going to stab him, then yes he has every right to draw his gun and shoot. I doubt there was time to make a distinction between a shot to incapacitate and a shot to kill


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## spog (24/9/14)

As I have heard on the radio,he stabbed the Victorian copper first then the Federal copper ,the Victorian copper then shot him.
This bloke stabbed cops and was shot dead,dunno about the media frenzy with a terrorism angle but that's the media for you.
What kind of fuckwit attacks a cop!


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

Who takes a knife to a gun fight...


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## Dave70 (24/9/14)

A few years back, a jewelry store (family run) owner in a suburb not to far from my folks place came out from the back of the shop to discover a thief holding a knife at his wife's throat screaming at her to empty the trays into a bag. 
The owner produced a pistol from behind the counter, chased the thief out the door and shot him dead. It went to court. He was found not guilty. 
Good on him I thought. And good on the jury.


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## spog (24/9/14)

Agree with that,how many times has CCTV footage of a servo holdup been shown on the news ?
One day a servo worker is going to pull a gun on the robber and shot them,no worries there just another piece of shit getting its comeuppance .


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## Dave70 (24/9/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> This is well worth watching. Especially at about the 4min mark. The woman makes the most rational statement that I have heard for a long time
> 
> http://youtu.be/nrmwB0bwtYQ


Brigitte Gabriel has got some huge kahunas under that blouse. 
And some big o'l bobbies also.


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## jlm (24/9/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Another false flag attack another excuse to further their agenda.


Please explain? Liek, that's some pretty serious conspiracy, stabbing a a couple of *****/coppers in order to shoot some **** in order for the guberments/illuminati/greens/rspca or whoever to have a reason to slowly strip away your rights due to your outrage that today tonight incites?

I haven't seen the dudes stab wounds first hand so can't verify them for the al foil hat brigade 1000.10%, but until we're all taken though whatever ward old mate resides individually to confirm 1 or more copper was cut up, what actually makes anything about this a "False Flag Attack"?


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## Black Devil Dog (24/9/14)

I can't believe some of the rubbish written here.

The young bloke had been on the radar as radicalised for some time. The police get him to come to the station to ask him a few questions and with clear premeditated intentions he pulls out a knife and begins attacking the Police officers.

They shoot him in self defence and he dies, but according to some of the nutters on here, it's a government conspiracy, or the police have no right to defend themselves, or they're wearing the wrong coloured uniforms, or it's false flag attack, or it's the Murdoch press doing some shit.

No, what it was, was a radicalised young Muslim, trying to kill police officers but instead he copped it, like he should have.

No conspiracy.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/9/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I can't believe some of the rubbish written here.
> 
> The young bloke had been on the radar as radicalised for some time. The police get him to come to the station to ask him a few questions and with clear premeditated intentions he pulls out a knife and begins attacking the Police officers.
> 
> ...



Here here. Also in relation to the proposed changes in legislation, I'm inclined to believe those who believe it is being done to simply gain more power and not to assist the ability to counter the progression of terror threats would probably be in the same camp whinging about no action being taken if there had been no proposed changes.

We live in a great country with great values and freedoms, I praise those who seek to keep it that way.


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## madpierre06 (24/9/14)

I think that the point some (and I would myself also) make is that events like these are used to justify changes/introductions to legislation which give those in power and influence mmore opportunities to erode rights and access to information for the general populace. Govts and the like know full well that circumstances come up which will enable them to take such action.

I have no issue whatsoever with tyhe actions of the coppers.


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## panzerd18 (24/9/14)

jlm said:


> Please explain?


In reference to the Boston marathon.


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## browndog (24/9/14)

panzerd18 said:


> In reference to the Boston marathon.


Oh come on. What conspiracy do you subscribe to?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/9/14)

If two police can not defend themselves against one small guy with a knife with out killing him then they should not be doing what they are doing.
I am not anti police I actually had police in my family, none of them trigger happy I am happy to say.


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## philmud (24/9/14)

I wouldn't call what the Government are doing a conspiracy. Rather it's opportunism to distract and keep a dick-brained electorate on side. Some of you guys are clearly drinking more kool-aid than beer at the moment, if you don't think this shit is being politicised.


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## manticle (24/9/14)

I think you're being a bit harsh there Nev. Unexpected threat on your life and your colleague's, trained how to use a weapon; it's forseeable and understandable 
There are many occasions when Vic police have acted in a way I'd describe as trigger happy. If the reports in this case thus far are factual, then I don't see how they have been in this case. They are not Jet Li or Steven Seagall.


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## CrookedFingers (24/9/14)

Hey guys.
I live seriously like 2 minutes from this event. The police station is right next door to my local shopping centre.

I have a wife and two young kids, this attack makes me very nervous.
If someone is radical enough to attack the very people who are charged to serve and protect us, well, attacking unarmed citizens is no problem.

I dont defend the actions of the police officers in taking his life, but imagine the backlash if they did nothing ??
Long gone are the days of the old trigger happy victorian cops we hope, but extreme acts like this really do need extreme action taken by the law enforcement individuals.


Lets hope there are no more attacks like this, but I am not at all confident of that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> If two police can not defend themselves against one small guy with a knife with out killing him then they should not be doing what they are doing.
> I am not anti police I actually had police in my family, none of them trigger happy I am happy to say.


Bit different when he springs a knife out of the blue and stabs them.......have a bit of a think about what you just said and what happened...


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## Black Devil Dog (24/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> So if some one stabs me I can kill them, I think not.
> I dont know the full story but killing someone is a big call.


You could sing Kumbaya, that might work.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/9/14)

madpierre06 said:


> I think that the point some (and I would myself also) make is that events like these are used to justify changes/introductions to legislation which give those in power and influence mmore opportunities to erode rights and access to information for the general populace. Govts and the like know full well that circumstances come up which will enable them to take such action.
> 
> I have no issue whatsoever with tyhe actions of the coppers.


So what reasons and drivers would be a more suitable reasoning for legislative change? If they are "proactive" and do such changes without an event, the backlash is even worse.

Give me a break.


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## manticle (24/9/14)

There's not a real need for legislative change though is there? What has happened that is not adequately covered by existing laws?


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## Eagleburger (24/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> If two police can not defend themselves against one small guy with a knife with out killing him then they should not be doing what they are doing.
> I am not anti police I actually had police in my family, none of them trigger happy I am happy to say.


In close quarters knives afford much more opportunity.

Police were lucky and the deadshit punk who got what he deserved.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/9/14)

Not with this particular event, but the context purported was the government will USE this to justify the proposed legislative changes. The changes were brought on since the terror threat level was changed.

I am usually a skeptic at the best of times, but with national security and the current "state of affairs" overseas and ISIS etc, I firmly believe there is intelligence behind the change in terror threat level. People get threatened by the unknown, but perhaps some belief in those working behind the scenes to protect us wouldn't go astray. Rather than always taking the 9/11 consipracy theory mindset that all democratic governments just seek to gain more power at the expense of the globe and their own citizens rights.


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## CrookedFingers (24/9/14)

I'm sure any change in legislation would be supported by the masses shortly after these radicals take it to the next level.



CF


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## pk.sax (24/9/14)

Minister: Roger, that news channel is giving a lot of credit to the policemen and the police chief, we need to seen to be doing something.

Bureaucrat: Like praising the policemen, offering support to the families and reassuring the people that the law will continue to protect them?

Minister: No! The previous government brought in the laws, we can't give them such an opportunity. We must do something original. What is the latest buzzword in America?

Bureaucrat: They are going to fight the terrorists Sir.

Minister: That is what we will do. Prepare a draft bill to curb boat people and illegal entry and call a press conference to announce that we are going to go hard on terrorists who try to escape our legal system, we are strengthening our weak laws to deal with the loopholes left by the previous government.

Bureaucrat: Yes minister.


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## Phoney (24/9/14)

manticle said:


> There's not a real need for legislative change though is there? What has happened that is not adequately covered by existing laws?


Not being a lawyer and also not having the time to read the 165 pages of the draft legislation, I had a read through the News LTD article of the quick summary of the new changes here: http://www.news.com.au/national/new-terror-laws-what-they-mean-for-you/story-fncynjr2-1227068923472

I consider myself to be a bit over on the libertarian side, socially, but there was nothing in there that jumped out at me as being a scary step towards becoming a police state. Not being able to travel to Syria or Iraq without a legitimate reason is not exactly going to interfere with my holiday plans in the next decade, its safe to say.

I just wish legislation like this had mandatory sunset clauses, so that after every say 8 years they would need to be revisited. Whereby if the threat has passed, they would get scrapped. Wishful thinking?


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## madpierre06 (24/9/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> So what reasons and drivers would be a more suitable reasoning for legislative change? If they are "proactive" and do such changes without an event, the backlash is even worse.
> 
> Give me a break.


If you read my post again, and slowly this time, you might get the idea that it was a generalisation rather than specific to this actual case. 

Then you might not be in such a hurry to be a rude prick.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/9/14)

madpierre06 said:


> If you read my post again, and slowly this time, you might get the idea that it was a generalisation rather than specific to this actual case.
> 
> Then you might not be in such a hurry to be a rude prick.


Ill put your unecessary insult aside mate and yes, reread what you said and still would like to know what reasoning you think would be acceptable and not seen as the government taking advantage of the events?


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## manticle (24/9/14)

People disagree, sometimes vehemently but please discuss opposing points of view without getting personal. Goes for everyone.


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## Phoney (24/9/14)

I forgot to add, these particular laws restricting the press are bullshit of the highest order: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/22/australias-counter-terror-laws-will-restrict-our-free-speech-and-free-press


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## Vini2ton (25/9/14)

I was a bit hammered on sunday night but this is what I was wanting to talk about. It appears.


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## Blind Dog (25/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> If two police can not defend themselves against one small guy with a knife with out killing him then they should not be doing what they are doing.
> I am not anti police I actually had police in my family, none of them trigger happy I am happy to say.


So you're saying that if you were in the exact same situation you'd have acted differently and accepted the risk that someone who'd just stabbed a colleague standing next to you wasn't going to take your life before you're able to disarm and incapacitate him?


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## manticle (25/9/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Not with this particular event, but the context purported was the government will USE this to justify the proposed legislative changes. The changes were brought on since the terror threat level was changed.
> 
> I am usually a skeptic at the best of times, but with national security and the current "state of affairs" overseas and ISIS etc, I firmly believe there is intelligence behind the change in terror threat level. People get threatened by the unknown, but perhaps some belief in those working behind the scenes to protect us wouldn't go astray. Rather than always taking the 9/11 consipracy theory mindset that all democratic governments just seek to gain more power at the expense of the globe and their own citizens rights.


The IS situation as a whole is already being used as justification for legislative changes. You may agree with the changes, they may turn out to be innocuous, they may even replace archaic legislation but it's hard to deny that historically, dramatically reported events and drastic legislative changes often go hand in hand and are met with little resistance from the population at large .
I'm not a big believer in conspiracies, despite the known existence of many (and the imagined existence of a million more) - I prefer to believe in logic informed by factual information. At most I believe people in power like being in power and do what they can to stay there. In the case of Western, liberal democracy, that happens when politicians are seen to be doing something good or right by the majority. No conspiracy, no puppetmaster but there is manipulation of an elastic populace.


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## Vini2ton (25/9/14)

I think that if it wasn't for the catholics I would have had no one to chuck my yonnies at. But that was then. If I was a kid now I'd be right with targets. Lots. And even people who want to be offended for me. woohoo.


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## Blind Dog (25/9/14)

What I find odd is that I lived in London In the early 90s and there were almost daily IRA bombs going off somewhere, or disarmed by the police. People died or were injured. Yes there was increased police scrutiny of the Irish immigrant community, but there was no 'us' and 'them' attitude prevalent, no draconian censorship laws, no restrictions on freedoms to keep the country safe. Everyone just got on with their lives and dealt with the bomb scares, closed streets, tube evacuations etc. I still lived there when the bombs went off on 7/7. Friends were injured, but not amongst the 52 killed.

Now it just feels different and somehow scarier and a lot more hysterical but nothing much has actually happened. Whilst I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory view of life as I just don't get what's in it for the apparent conspirators, lazy sound bite journalism has a lot to answer for. We're walking round in fear of jihadists on every street corner, but they're just not there, we seem to be jumping at shadows that do t exist. No doubt there are radicalized Muslims here, but they are currently few and far between. Most Muslims are just like us, but sober - they want a peaceful life, for their kids to have a better life than they had, walks on the beach, love, respect and a sense of belonging. If our media continue to portray Muslims as radicalized jihadists, we'll ostracize our best bet of making sure that does not become our reality


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## Vini2ton (25/9/14)

But honestly fellas, this is a site mkay about homebrew and we don't talk about religion or perverts or polifuckintics.


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## manticle (25/9/14)

Go to bed mate. You'll make (more) sense in the morning.


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## Vini2ton (25/9/14)

Become politically aware or suffer the consequences and spelling issues.


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## Vini2ton (25/9/14)

And thankyou manticle...what the hell is a manticle? A giant crystal of some sort or a big crab...chillie garlic ginger


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## Spiesy (25/9/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wondered myself why did the police call him a terror suspect instead of a stupid boy, was it because they shot him?


No, it's because he was seen flying the ISIS flag in public, on more than one occasion. 

Lol.


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## philmud (25/9/14)

Vini2ton said:


> I think that if it wasn't for the catholics I would have had no one to chuck my yonnies at.


You can't help yourself, can you mate?


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## philmud (25/9/14)

Also as a point of housekeeping, why, when I started an Islamic State topic, was it moved out of "In the News", but this one is still here? Is this an intended outcome of the newly proposed anti-terror laws?


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## Eagleburger (25/9/14)

Because talking nasty about minority = bigotry = bad,

killing said minorities = war on terror = good.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/14)

Its interesting to note that the largest, and the vast majority of the Muslim population is actually Asian and not Arabic...

Yet the media would have us believe that all Muslims are Arabic and run around wearing white sheets killing people


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/14)

And Blind Dogs view of the IRA is a real levelling point. The IRA where a lot more violent and vicious then the current crop of Muslim extremists. The IRS where bombing on a weekly basis...the Muslim extremists have a lot of catching up to do

But then again they where white so you cant really compare the there actions against the Arabic terrorists can we


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## Spiesy (25/9/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And Blind Dogs view of the IRA is a real levelling point. The IRA where a lot more violent and vicious then the current crop of Muslim extremists. The IRS where bombing on a weekly basis...the Muslim extremists have a lot of catching up to do


I agree, that was a very interesting point of view.

I guess the only difference, if I may be permitted to eat the Devil's avocado, is the "war on terror" topic is more of a global concern - affecting most Western nations.


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## Dave70 (25/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> I wouldn't call what the Government are doing a conspiracy. Rather it's opportunism to distract and keep a dick-brained electorate on side. Some of you guys are clearly drinking more kool-aid than beer at the moment, if you don't think this shit is being politicised.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whilst fat **** and morphine addict Göring may have found the time to wax philosophically in between guzzling Bordeaux wines and stuffing his face, lets not forget the 'people' in his case, zee Germans, had little say in the direction they're country was headed. They were duped by a charismatic fascist and psychopath to be sure, but initially he just looked like a war vet and patriot.
Ironically, its political leaders and figureheads who make for the most likely targets for assignation. Sawing the head off Joe Average and posting it online gets a public outcry, kidnapping and murdering a high ranking public servant with direct connections to law enforcement and / or policy making sends an entirely different message. They would be acutely aware of this, one would assume. 
Who knows? Maby the politicians are becoming victims of the very media they strive to manipulate?
Vicious circle, eh?



edit {speeling}


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## madpierre06 (25/9/14)

manticle said:


> The IS situation as a whole is already being used as justification for legislative changes. You may agree with the changes, they may turn out to be innocuous, they may even replace archaic legislation but it's hard to deny that historically, dramatically reported events and drastic legislative changes often go hand in hand and are met with little resistance from the population at large .
> I'm not a big believer in conspiracies, despite the known existence of many (and the imagined existence of a million more) - I prefer to believe in logic informed by factual information. At most I believe people in power like being in power and do what they can to stay there. In the case of Western, liberal democracy, that happens when politicians are seen to be doing something good or right by the majority. No conspiracy, no puppetmaster but there is manipulation of an elastic populace.


My only disagreement with this is regarding conspiracy theories. I do believe that there are very selective groups of people with massive influence within the corridors of power across varying govts who use said influence to bring about legislative and other changes which suit them. I don't have the time or inclination to list what I see as circumstantial evidence of such, other than to suggest having a look at policies and changes brought in across particularly western govts which all mirror each other and which only benefit the very well off to the detriment of thew less well off. And by the time it becomes obvious what has happened...well, it's too late to do anything about it
.


DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Ill put your unecessary insult aside mate and yes, reread what you said and still would like to know what reasoning you think would be acceptable and not seen as the government taking advantage of the events?


You're right, I wasn't in the best head space last night and the insult itself was uncalled for. My apologies mate.

I will query as to why you had a shot at my original post and then liked Manticle's post above which I have quoted when he has (a little more eloquently) posted very similar thoughts to what I was saying.



manticle said:


> People disagree, sometimes vehemently but please discuss opposing points of view without getting personal. Goes for everyone.


Again, you're right, my apologies for the term used, it wasn't necessary.


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## wide eyed and legless (25/9/14)

I have no problem with the police actions, MY POINT is does the Victorian police manual on terror suspects advise officers to call a terror suspect who is threatening to kill members of ASIO and the police to come in for a chat, this is something that is done for suspects of minor offences in order to eliminate them as a suspect.
This individual has been under surveillance for months, even had his passport revoked and was clearly dangerous, what if he had a bomb strapped to him which is not beyond the realms of fantasy, I am a firm believer in surprise is the best tactic, hence a dawn raid with the big key a load of specialist officers making a lot of noise then dragging the suspect out handcuffed,job done, not invite the suspect to drop in for a chat, forewarned is forearmed.


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## Dave70 (25/9/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have no problem with the police actions, MY POINT is does the Victorian police manual on terror suspects advise officers to call a terror suspect who is threatening to kill members of ASIO and the police to come in for a chat, this is something that is done for suspects of minor offences in order to eliminate them as a suspect.
> This individual has been under surveillance for months, even had his passport revoked and was clearly dangerous, what if he had a bomb strapped to him which is not beyond the realms of fantasy,* I am a firm believer in surprise is the best tactic, hence a dawn raid with the big key a load of specialist officers making a lot of noise then dragging the suspect out handcuffed,job done, not invite the suspect to drop in for a chat, forewarned is forearmed. *


They're probably worried they'll wind up as the topic of discussion on next weeks Q & A program with Tony Jones framing it as a 'home invasion'.


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## wobbly (25/9/14)

It now seems that earlier in the day/evening the police had been to his home to interview him and reportedly he wasn't at home at the time and they then searched his room in his absence
He appears to have been contacted at some fast food joint by someone and told about the police and reportedly became very angry and returned home
He is supposed to have contacted the police who agreed to meet him and he then chose the location as the local police station
Reportedly his parents (and others) tried to talk him out of going all to no avail, when and how he armed himself not sure
His parents are said to be peaceful and liberal thinking people 
The kid had been radicalised by some extremist hatred preaching Imam and lost his way
And the rest is history

Why do we tolerate these radical muslin Imams and allow then to preach hatred of our life and values to the point of inciting and actively encouraging their followers to commit these acts

These are the real terrorists in this country that should be made leave/deported

Wobbly


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## wide eyed and legless (25/9/14)

Exactly Dave, they are worried about upsetting the Muslim community and the few radicals amongst them, but I do hope now that the powers that be rethink how they go about apprehension and questioning of terror suspects, and if they are not doing so get advice from U.K police about the above.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/9/14)

Blind Dog said:


> So you're saying that if you were in the exact same situation you'd have acted differently and accepted the risk that someone who'd just stabbed a colleague standing next to you wasn't going to take your life before you're able to disarm and incapacitate him?


What I am saying is you dont put desk jockeys on the front line just as you dont put blanket folders in special forces,


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## StalkingWilbur (25/9/14)

Here's some food for thought. Some of these are particularly scary and some that don't effect me, don't seem particularly necessary either. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/tony-abbott-trade-freedom-security?CMP=soc_567

And this comment puts things into perspective.




I also find the whistleblower proposes scary. Why the need for that? I personally think Snowden, Manning and Assange should be commended, not condemned. 

Just to balance things out, I don't question the cops at all. Someone retarded enough to stab a cop isn't someone I want in my community anyway.


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## wombil (25/9/14)

Maybe the cops thought that there was a chance to talk some sense into this blokes head without the heavy stuff.
They could be real top guys.( I know a couple.)
I am also pissed off with some of the bullshit being put on here.
If the idiot had tried to kill two plumbers and one of them killed him with a pipe or a brickie got him with a trowel,
would the outcry be the same?
Good on the cops and good riddance to the rubbish.


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## philmud (25/9/14)

The cops didn't arrest him in a dawn raid because there's no such thing as a thought crime in this country. Without a specific plot to carry out an act of terror, all they could do is key him know they'd be watching him.


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## Dave70 (25/9/14)

wombil said:


> Maybe the cops thought that there was a chance to talk some sense into this blokes head without the heavy stuff.
> They could be real top guys.( I know a couple.)
> I am also pissed off with some of the bullshit being put on here.
> *If the idiot had tried to kill two plumbers and one of them killed him with a pipe or a brickie got him with a trowel,*
> ...


So long as the plumber didn't kill him with the brickies trowel. Demarcation issues are taken very seriously.


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## r055c0 (25/9/14)

Don't forget this "terrorist" was only 18, and while 18 may be legally adult I remember when I was 18 I thought I knew everything and could rule the world, turns out I was a ******* idiot with a lot of growing up to do. I'm not defending him, and I'm sure not saying the cops were wrong to defend themselves, but he was young and impressionable. The really horrifying thing is somewhere some adult filled his head and his heart with bullshit and hatred, and that adult is more responsible for his death than the police.


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## wombil (25/9/14)

Here is my biggest worry.
I have just heard on the news that the guys muslim family migrated o Australia ten years ago.
So he was eight years old when he got here.
That would indicate that all this shit that he had in him was learnt HERE.


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## philmud (25/9/14)

It's a global village these days.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/9/14)

I am in full support of an Anti terrorist task force but if its not done properly and by highly trained professionals then this is the result, one dead suspect and two injured police. The operational side of this case appears to have been ill prepared, if he was a suspected terrorist then he should have been raided without notice not asked in for a chat, who does that ?
Tony has done the talk but has not prepared the forces to back this up, smells like another home insulation quick fix to me.


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## philmud (25/9/14)

If they raided him, what would they have charged him with? Unfurling a flag? Harbouring violent thoughts?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> If they raided him, what would they have charged him with? Unfurling a flag? Harbouring violent thoughts?


What have they charged the other people they have raided with ?


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## hellbent (25/9/14)

Terrorism is a very big threat to World peace at this very moment, probably now more than ever and Australia's participation in sending personal over there to combat it leaves us wide open as a target on the home front.
Don't kid yourselves that we're ok over here, Don't kid yourselves that we're untouchable, because believe me bro we are not!
99% of people with Muslim or Islamic backgrounds are great, law abiding people, they love their adopted country and their new friends in it.
But sadly with that we have the insanely mad fanaticals hiding behind religious beliefs and with no respect for our country, people. or our laws and just want to, and will create terrorist activities around this Australia.
Just remember....it's just not a matter of *if terrorism comes to Australia*.... But a matter of *When it comes to Australia* , probably with the beheading of some poor innocent bastard who was in the wrong place at the wrong time!
This guy in Melbourne had 2 knives on him, one he used to stab the officers and a larger one he had in his sock for other purposes, he also had an islamic flag in his back pocket and had full intentions of taking the coppers down then beheading and draping the flag over them, but fortunately by the grace of god he was stopped.
Some people think they are victimising people and that by shooting him the coppers went over the top! Personally I would much prefer that the authorities play hard on the side of caution by tough questioning etc on people of interest about their activities.
I would want them to be fully vigilant on the matter rather than being polite trying not to offend people and tiptoeing around the matter! I wouldn't give two hoots if I was questioned about my activities by police because I have nothing to hide, in fact I'd be happy because I would know that they were on the job!

Some of the posts I have have read on this topic on this forum convinces me that most of you are great brewers but when it comes to matters such as this a few have missed the mark a bit.
So let's stop all this bullshit about conspiracies, heavy handed police activities, who was right an who was wrong etc. and be aware...VERY AWARE of what's going on around us, because my friends terrorism isn't a figment of the imagination, it is real and it is a danger to our way of life!


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## philmud (25/9/14)

You know which demographic kills more people in this country than rabid Islamists? Men killing their partners & kids. No hasty broad stroke legislation there, though.


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## philmud (25/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> What have they charged the other people they have raided with ?


 This guy is being reported as a lone wolf with a desire to kill Westerners, not a party to a specific & organised plan to do so. Like I said, can't arrest someone for a thought crime.

Edit: lone wolf, not "love wolf". I'm the love wolf.


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## TimT (25/9/14)

_The really horrifying thing is somewhere some adult filled his head and his heart with bullshit and hatred, and that adult is more responsible for his death than the police._

That's true. Mind you the kid had a larger knife in his bag and stabbed one of the officers in the throat. He also had a larger knife on him. It seems probable that he intended to cut their heads off, in imitation of various other horrors that have happened around the world. How in the hell do you get to the point where you think cutting a person's head off is _okay? _

Read a story the other week about some of the idiots going over to Syria and Iraq from Australia who are horrified/terrified by what they see. The rest of the jihadis over there call them the 'cream puff brigade' and they've been locked up. I feel kinda sorry for those guys: they've made a really idiotic choice, and who knows what's stopped them - a glimmering of conscience, or more likely outright terror that they're going to end up killed. And now they find themselves in a situation that they can never go back from, might not even escape alive, much less make it in one piece back to Australia. Complete dickheads.


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## Mardoo (25/9/14)

Kid got what he was looking for. You can't think you can stab anyone without putting yourself in the line of a defensive response. Doesn't matter what race or religion you are.

The issue I have with the political response to this situation is the suspension of due process of law. That is among the primary things which make "the free world" free.

According to all my friends in the States - from the most to least radicalised - is that the terrorism-related changes to US democracy since 9/11 are bringing the country lower and lower and eroding faith in both American society and government. Australia is one of the countries in the world where the populace enjoys the most freedom. I don't want to see that eroded. At all.


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## manticle (25/9/14)

Agreed M.


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## Dave70 (25/9/14)

I'd also like to see Australia climb the ladder of the worlds least religious countries. Last time I checked we were at a respectable, but modest 10th. 
Forget sport, now there's a competition worth winning. 

And **** Barrack Obama every time he alludes to god. God bless America, May god bless and keep troops, god..god..god..
I cant help thinking of Sisyphus rolling that boulder back to the top of the mountain every time the most powerful man on the planet invokes a supernatural being to bestow good fortune and favor on his country.


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## syl (25/9/14)

Dave70 said:


> I'd also like to see Australia climb the ladder of the worlds least religious countries. Last time I checked we were at a respectable, but modest 10th.
> Forget sport, now there's a competition worth winning.
> 
> And **** Barrack Obama every time he alludes to god. God bless America, May god bless and keep troops, god..god..god..
> I cant help thinking of Sisyphus rolling that boulder back to the top of the mountain every time the most powerful man on the planet invokes a supernatural being to bestow good fortune and favor on his country.


You can't be PoTUS with out sucking the church's proverbial.


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## Dave70 (25/9/14)

Just once I like to see a pres who worshiped Norse gods. He could summon Odin to smite his enemy's. 
But that'd be silly. Those gods are obviously just made up.


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## Blind Dog (25/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> You know which demographic kills more people in this country than rabid Islamists? Men killing their partners & kids. No hasty broad stroke legislation there, though.


And bees (average is 3 deaths per year in Australia). No laws against them


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## Blind Dog (25/9/14)

Dave70 said:


> I'd also like to see Australia climb the ladder of the worlds least religious countries. Last time I checked we were at a respectable, but modest 10th.
> Forget sport, now there's a competition worth winning.
> 
> And **** Barrack Obama every time he alludes to god. God bless America, May god bless and keep troops, god..god..god..
> I cant help thinking of Sisyphus rolling that boulder back to the top of the mountain every time the most powerful man on the planet invokes a supernatural being to bestow good fortune and favor on his country.


And it would be so easy to become atheist. Most religions already reject most gods and are only 1 more god away ...


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## Dave70 (25/9/14)

Blind Dog said:


> And it would be so easy to become atheist. Most religions already reject most gods and are only 1 more god away ...


Yep, it's cause for hope alright. It may have taken thousands of years, but we've whittled down from hundreds to basically three. Getting closer to the true figure all the time.


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## Mardoo (25/9/14)

Yep, re: PotUS forget the black man getting elected, forget a woman getting elected, when an openly avowed atheist is elected PotUS you will know there has been REAL change. The fact that Kennedy was Catholic was a huge issue at the time.


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## Mattress (25/9/14)

And in other news,
The governments budget deficit for the 2013-14 financial year has come in at $30 billion more than forecast, oooh look. A terrorist!


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## zooesk (25/9/14)




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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/9/14)

Mattress said:


> And in other news,
> The governments budget deficit for the 2013-14 financial year has come in at $30 billion more than forecast, oooh look. A terrorist!


Where, I must shoot him.


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## GuyQLD (25/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Where, I must shoot him.


Except you can't afford bullets. Budget emergency remember?


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## pcmfisher (25/9/14)

Dave70 said:


> They're probably worried they'll wind up as the topic of discussion on next weeks Q & A program with Tony Jones framing it as a 'home invasion'.


Wasn't that a disgraceful show?

Terrorism and anti terrorism is all just theatre? 

God help us if Ann-Azza Aly is a an expert in anti terrorism.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/14)

Pastafarianism. The only TRUE religion.


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## wobbly (25/9/14)

Want further evidence that terrorism is alive and well in this country.

We now have a situation where Police and ADF officers have been advised not to wear their uniforms in public when off duty on their way to or from work for fear of being attacked by radicals

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/14)

wobbly said:


> Want further evidence that terrorism is alive and well in this country.
> 
> We now have a situation where Police and ADF officers have been advised not to wear their uniforms in public when off duty on their way to or from work for fear of being attacked by radicals
> 
> Wobbly


Thats not exactly proof.

Police dont generally wear uniforms to and from work in general


Maybe you should stop reading the Murdoch press and get a real view of the world


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## philmud (25/9/14)

wobbly said:


> Want further evidence that terrorism is alive and well in this country.
> 
> We now have a situation where Police and ADF officers have been advised not to wear their uniforms in public when off duty on their way to or from work for fear of being attacked by radicals
> 
> Wobbly


That means nothing on it's own. The ADF personnel who was assaulted today is more worrying, but he wasn't exactly beheaded, was he.
Asking cops & soldiers not to wear their uniforms off-duty is precisely the kind of thing that could be done to create the impression of an imminent threat.
As an aside, I once worked for a well known but not loved public service agency. We were often advised not to wear our ID tags in public.


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## Mardoo (25/9/14)

For example:

http://m.smh.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html

The reporting in this article is so SHIT IGNORANT it's embarrassing to read, like watching a teenage boy get paralytic drink and throw up on his date.


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## indica86 (25/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> If two police can not defend themselves against one small guy with a knife with out killing him then they should not be doing what they are doing.
> I am not anti police I actually had police in my family, none of them trigger happy I am happy to say.



There is a thing called the Reactionary Gap. Within 5 metres you have next to no hope of defending yourself against an attack with a weapon.
Defending yourself with lethal force when in fear of your life is authorised, justifiable and excusable under the Criminal Code in QLD and no doubt elsewhere.
You cannot shoot a hand gun to disable, it does not work, and when tense and under pressure would be even more unlikely.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/14)

Mardoo said:


> For example:
> 
> http://m.smh.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html
> 
> The reporting in this article is so SHIT IGNORANT it's embarrassing to read, like watching a teenage boy get paralytic drink and throw up on his date.


I Just read and stared at that ....Words fail me....thats was some pretty shit writing.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/9/14)

indica86 said:


> There is a thing called the Reactionary Gap. Within 5 metres you have next to no hope of defending yourself against an attack with a weapon.
> Defending yourself with lethal force when in fear of your life is authorised, justifiable and excusable under the Criminal Code in QLD and no doubt elsewhere.
> You cannot shoot a hand gun to disable, it does not work, and when tense and under pressure would be even more unlikely.


Ok I am sold lets just shoot them all.
QLD you rock !


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Ok I am sold lets just shoot them all.
> QLD you rock !


Hang on a minute....its the Victorian Police who are trigger happy

The QLD police still use the Yellow Pages


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## manticle (25/9/14)

Vic police have chilled out somewhat since shhoting a disturbed 15 year old kid in Northcote several years ago.


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## HBHB (25/9/14)

Chances are the powers that be in the stated case have decided this young bloke was a lesser threat and just needed settling down. The dawn raids, while effective at stopping bad guys from carrying out acts of terrorism, also stirred a hornets nest of anti-cop anti-establishment rhetoric that will bore the rest of the country to death for months to come.

For the cop haters, it's like this. If you've got a holstered weapon and some psycho dude decides to pull an edged weapon, you've got 5m of distance to react and 11m will be covered before you can actually get the fatal blow in first. There's rarely a second chance. Dickhead took a knife out to do damage and to martyr himself. End story. He got what he unfortunately deserved. I'm sure the officers, their wives and kids appreciate your most sincere wishes for a speedy recovery. 

There's a vast difference between how the IRA work and how the Muslim Extremists work. 

At no time in London were there thousands of IRA members running around in packs hunting women and children down in 4WD's shooting randomly, killing hundreds in each spree. At no time were there 6,8 10 or 30 innocent victims lined up in front of their families and executed by headshots or beheaded with swords. 

At no time were there an estimated 50,000 terrorists in the IRA (something like 20,000 in Syria and 30,000 in Iraq) 

About the only similarity that can be drawn is that both groups were fanatic radicals and both killed people. (Innocents) and both are bad situations that are difficult to deal with and live in.

For me, personally, i'd be happy to see the government create every necessary power to give to the appropriate authorities to make sure that getting on a plane a bus or train is safe. That's a ******* sad fact of life. If that means folk have to queue up for an extra 10 minutes at an airport, then so be it. Find some patience. If that means that a few thousand people get stopped in a public place and patted down because he's acting oddly, then so be it. Get over it and live life.

How much bitching would there be if Australia were overwhelmed by similar attacks to other countries and nobody had done jack shit to stop it happening? There's a price to pay for having open borders and being a bit careful is one of them.

The comment about desk workers doing the job of SERT teams doesn't even warrant an answer. You clearly have no idea.

Must be time for a beer.


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## indica86 (25/9/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Ok I am sold lets just shoot them all.
> QLD you rock !


That's a ******* stupid thing to say. I was trying to help you adjust you perception to the reality of Police defending their lives against someone who has stabbed both of them.
Obviously you know better.
I did not say shoot them all, or anyone for that matter.


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## AndrewQLD (25/9/14)

indica86 said:


> That's a ******* stupid thing to say. I was trying to help you adjust you perception to the reality of Police defending their lives against someone who has stabbed both of them.
> Obviously you know better.
> I did not say shoot them all, or anyone for that matter.


Don't take it personally, some people have an aversion to all things Queensland for some unknown reason.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

Lot of people here (all?) seem to have accepted the police version of the incident.

Just because the cops say something happened a certain way doesn't mean that's the way it was.

(eg. an equally plausible explanation is that he was beat up by the cops and pulled a knife(s) to defend himself)

The only fact we have is that he is dead. All the rest is part of your believe system.

Stop believing and start thinking.


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## CrookedFingers (25/9/14)

That's a pretty stupid statement mate.

Sorry. But it just is.


CF


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## Eagleburger (25/9/14)

Its all Putins fault.


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## StalkingWilbur (25/9/14)

Why would he take two knives with him to a meet up with police anyway? 

I was young a dumb once (still am somewhat) but I certainly wouldn't have taken a concealed weapon to a police station when they had requested a chat with me.


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## HBHB (25/9/14)

Feldon said:


> Lot of people here (all?) seem to have accepted the police version of the incident.
> 
> Just because the cops say something happened a certain way doesn't mean that's the way it was.
> 
> ...


Even more plausible is that they stopped an 18 yr old from travelling overseas because he was planning on joining a terrorist network, got pissed off and took it upon himself to try to kill 2 innocent law enforcement officers who spend 10 hrs a day defending the freedom of people who make really ******* dumb statements. Time to stop theorising about bullshit and start thinking. (Just saying)


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## manticle (25/9/14)

Feldon said:


> Lot of people here (all?) seem to have accepted the police version of the incident.
> 
> Just because the cops say something happened a certain way doesn't mean that's the way it was.
> 
> ...


There's every chance the media have reported it incorrectly as they are wont to do that but the idea that police beat him then shot him is quite implausible to me. There's a difference between thinking critically and sceptically and just making up wild theories based on nothing.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

If you read my post you would have seen my beating analogy was prefaced by "e.g." It was an example of an alternative explanation of which many are possible. Was simply trying to illustrate a point.

None of you I take it were there, so none of you know what happened from personal experience.

You believe, apparently without question, the information that comes to you from media outlets, who sourced their information from the police.

And who shot the man? The police.

In any homicide you never take the killer's word at face value. Of course the killer will try to justify his actions. And indeed they may well be justified in this situation - but equally they may not. But until an inquest is held both you and I know nothing about what happened. That is, you have no knowledge of the event, only your beliefs.

In other words - the police and the media have pulled your chain, and you've flushed.


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## manticle (25/9/14)

You'll note throughout many of my previous posts, statements such as 'if reports are true'. Yes question all versions of events but use evidence and facts to work out reasonable hypotheses.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

Bar the dead body we have no evidence on anything, yet. Only opinion and scuttlebutt.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

HBHB said:


> Even more plausible is that they stopped an 18 yr old from travelling overseas because he was planning on joining a terrorist network, got pissed off and took it upon himself to try to kill 2 innocent law enforcement officers who spend 10 hrs a day defending the freedom of people who make really ******* dumb statements. Time to stop theorising about bullshit and start thinking. (Just saying)


How do you know they are innocent?


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## CrookedFingers (25/9/14)

And Elvis is still alive.

Do you seriously think in the current climate (in regards to IS), that the police would just go out and seek a young man to shoot dead....oh yeah, let's get stabbed while we are at it !!!

C'mon Feldon.
In some cases YES the media can be misleading, not sure if this is it.
Bit too serious of a topic to go fabricating stories don't you think ???

Or Do you just think too much ? 
Not everything is a conspiracy dude.


CF


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## manticle (25/9/14)

Feldon said:


> Bar the dead body we have no evidence on anything, yet. Only opinion and scuttlebutt.


And possibly some witnesses. I agree that the version offered might differ from the real chain of events - your example of equally plausible was pretty rubbish though. Not because police have never been guilty of violent or unlawful conduct, just because there is currently even less to suggest it was closer to the truth than current media stories. I know what you mean but I think it could have been phrased a lot more thoughtfully.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

CrookedFingers said:


> And Elvis is still alive.
> 
> Do you seriously think in the current climate (in regards to IS), that the police would just go out and seek a young man to shoot dead....oh yeah, let's get stabbed while we are at it !!!
> 
> ...


I seem to have struck a nerve.

How do you know they were stabbed? You obviously believe it to be true. But you can't know. Yet it has become part of your personal belief system.

Stand back. Search the media for factual, verifiable content and ignore everything else. Then slowly start to form your own knowledge of the matter.

At the moment you are just being gullible.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

manticle said:


> And possibly some witnesses. I agree that the version offered might differ from the real chain of events - your example of equally plausible was pretty rubbish though. Not because police have never been guilty of violent or unlawful conduct, just because there is currently even less to suggest it was closer to the truth than current media stories. I know what you mean but I think it could have been phrased a lot more thoughtfully.


The coppers have form here. Remember Palm Island? Remember the Hilton bombing? Shit, the list is almost endless.


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## Eagleburger (25/9/14)

Eagleburger said:


> Its all Putins fault.


Thats what the somewhat sexy lady who was driving the bus said today. She said "remember the last time monkey mans better half wanted to invade Syria? but Putin made him look like a war mongering douche bag? Well he went back to the golf course with his tail between his legs and with the help of X plotted his next move. 

It went something like this; Steal an airliner, use it to deliver some nasty biological agents to those friends you despise. Blame it on the Syrians and those unruly Muslims, public will be outraged and carpet bomb Syria, Muslim buddies with wads of cash are happy and everything is right in the world".

Well, Russian and Chinese intelligence were all of it and nipped it in the bud. The Chinese ditched the MH370 before it got to Afghanistan and Putin persuaded Syria to give up its WMDs. Damn new plan needed. Obama was stumped, because you know he is plain stupid. So he calls up X, who was all delirious on hash and getting a blowy off his 32nd wife. X tells him " just behead a few people, it always gets the locals excited around here". 

So Obama organizes the beheadings and like obamacare, are of poor quality and be eventually proven maladroit. Public is outraged, billions spent to carpet bomb poor Syrian civilians. Fathers, mothers and children, most living day to day just to put food in their mouths, blown to smithereens if they are lucky. 

So if Putin had only kept his mischievous hand out of X and Obamas plan, them poor Melbourne police and a hundred thousand Syrians folks would feel no pain today. Of course the Syrians would be already a year dead, But they would be in no pain, Right?".

I was stunned, I said " you are fucken crazy" She smiled. I said "wanna ****?" She undid the buttons on her shirt to reveal her speckled cleavage. Obviously spent a many summer on the gold coast. I looked down the empty bus. All the usual patrons drove their cars today, too paranoid to catch public transport. Couldnt stand the thought of a bearded man taking the seat behind them. I took her hands and pulled her to her feet and into my embrace. Go to redtube for the rest ya pervs!


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## manticle (25/9/14)

Feldon said:


> The coppers have form here. Remember Palm Island? Remember the Hilton bombing? Shit, the list is almost endless.


Not denying historical occurrences of police/authority unlawfulness and cover up but you can't assume every member of a group is guilty based on the past actions of some. Goes for muslims, goes for cops. Possible, yes but don't jump to conclusions based on nothing.


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## CrookedFingers (25/9/14)

Ok mate.

You haven't struck a nerve.
I just get a little funny when "free thinkers" like yourself get up on your soap boxes to sprook conspiracies and the like.
I find it almost as damaging as the media can be.
I'm done man. No more bites here.


Peace out.


CF


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

CrookedFingers said:


> Ok mate.
> 
> You haven't struck a nerve.
> I just get a little funny when "free thinkers" like yourself get up on your soap boxes to sprook conspiracies and the like.
> ...


What conspiracy?


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## CrookedFingers (25/9/14)

Nice try.


CF


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

manticle said:


> Not denying historical occurrences of police/authority unlawfulness and cover up but you can't assume every member of a group is guilty based on the past actions of some. Goes for muslims, goes for cops. Possible, yes but don't jump to conclusions based on nothing.


To accept the current version of events is equally a "jump to conclusions based on nothing". I have said nothing more or less plausible that the mainstream view. So why single me out.


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

CrookedFingers said:


> Nice try.
> 
> 
> CF


Checkmate.


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## CrookedFingers (25/9/14)

I don't play chess mate.




CF


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## manticle (25/9/14)

There are media reports that suggest a sequence of events. That sequence of events has witnesses and whether it is completely true or not, it occurred in a public place. Certainly the version that's reported and the witnesses need to be given due scrutiny but to say there is no evidence or suggest that another version (with no evidence currently) is equally plausible is incorrect. There is evidence - whether that evidence holds up to scrutiny or not is what remains to be seen. No evidence for your 'equally plausible' explanation has been suggested or offered - just a might be/what if situation.
Don't feel singled out. Question the offered version of events by all means but refrain from offering alternative possibilities unless you have some evidence for them (rather than zero).


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## Blind Dog (25/9/14)

Mardoo said:


> For example:http://m.smh.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html
> The reporting in this article is so SHIT IGNORANT it's embarrassing to read, like watching a teenage boy get paralytic drink and throw up on his date.


Yep, let's prove jihad has been on the rise for years in Australia by using the example of a Maronite Christian. I just dont get why that shit is published


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## Feldon (25/9/14)

Don't want to labour the point, but the so-called witnesses, knife attack etc are a zero sum game too, for you and me. We don't know jack shit what happened, only explanations from the people who did the killing. And any intelligent person should not accept it on face value. It needs to be tested at an inquest which, in time, I hope will happen.

And as for the killing of this guy as a PR coup for the new anti-terrorism laws, the new war in Syria/Iraq etc, I don't see it implausible at all. Its manna from heaven for the govt. Just what they need to make us compliant - the Engineering of Consent, as its been called. Remember the 2nd Gulf War prosecuted on the basis that Saddam had WMDs. The fuzzy photos waved around the UN chamber showing launch sites and chemical factories. All carefully constructed PR to make people in the US and here and elsewhere sign up for war based on nothing but lies. Its is quite plausible that something similar is happening right now. They have their Muslim scalp and they will use it to scare us into compliance, whether or not the killing was justified.


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## Camo6 (25/9/14)

Once more, until more facts come to light I'm content to trust in my old mate Occam and his razor. It's the rare occasion when he gets proven wrong.


As far as new terror laws go I'm more inclined to believe that the likelihood of falling prey to terrorist attacks in Australia is far greater than us descending into an Orwellian like future.


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## Blind Dog (25/9/14)

HBHB said:


> There's a vast difference between how the IRA work and how the Muslim Extremists work.
> At no time in London were there thousands of IRA members running around in packs hunting women and children down in 4WD's shooting randomly, killing hundreds in each spree. At no time were there 6,8 10 or 30 innocent victims lined up in front of their families and executed by headshots or beheaded with swords.
> At no time were there an estimated 50,000 terrorists in the IRA (something like 20,000 in Syria and 30,000 in Iraq)
> About the only similarity that can be drawn is that both groups were fanatic radicals and both killed people. (Innocents) and both are bad situations that are difficult to deal with and live


And that's happening in Australia where? There simply are not thousands of jihadists in Australia, nor indeed a single terrorist attack that I can recall. I also doubt all of the supposed 50,000 IS fighters are willing recruits when the choice is join or die.

IRA bombs went off in London almost daily and they killed and maimed. More went off in the rest of the UK. Over 3000 people lost their lives as a direct result of 'the troubles', the IRA being responsible for about 60%, loyalist terrorists for about 30% and the armed forces for about 10%. You can easily multiply that by 10 to get to the number injured, kneecapped, beaten senseless etc. The point is that the current hysteria is neither warranted (here) nor a sensible basis for passing laws that strip legitimate citizens of their rights without due process. Is if a conspiracy? I doubt it. Should we simply let it happen? No

But thanks for pointing out that no one had wished the 2 cops a speedy recovery. Humbled and 2nd your thoughts


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## manticle (26/9/14)

I'm not saying it should be accepted on face value Feldon. It also shouldn't be rejected on face value.
You can't possibly have indisputable, unquestionable evidence of every fact, everywhere all the time. Noone can live like that. Where individuals draw the line is up to them.


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## Mardoo (26/9/14)

I've been witness to some of the sort of chats that the AFP have with people of interest. My best friend was from Indonesia, and had some serious and seriously false allegations laid against him. The AFP contacted him to make a time to come talk to him about what was going on. He asked me to be there both times as both support and witness. A Victorian police officer and an AFP officer came to talk to him on two occasions about what was going on, separated by a couple years. It's one of the tactics of police in Australia I find admirable, to get a handle on a situation before it blows up. Of course it also says, "We're watching you," but these guys were seriously respectful in how everything was handled.

Now, I am most definitely not the most police supporter kind of guy. Anyone with a gun has an unfair advantage in my book, I steer far clear of them (police or not), and I have referred to police as "the Occupying Army" for many, many years. I don't hate them, but I don't trust them, because I don't trust human intentions and the drive behind them (which also means we need armed protectors like the police - conundrum). The kid was smart not to meet them in the station. However the details of the police story in this case square with my experience of police in Australia. There is absolutely nothing suspicious about them trying to arrange a talk with him. They do it all the time. In addition, if the allegations of up to three people being involved are true, and the boy who was shot was planning on beheading, there will be independent video footage which will most definitely surface.

I really hope there will be a clear and open inquest into this so that we will have something other than presuming and assuming. I would imagine there will be video footage from the police station outdoor cameras.


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## HBHB (26/9/14)

Blind Dog said:


> And that's happening in Australia where? There simply are not thousands of jihadists in Australia


Assumptions. I didn't say in Australia mate. I said Iraq and Syria.


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## manticle (26/9/14)

Which does return to his/her point somewhat- viz: why is there more panic about this in australia than there was in the UK about IRA?
S/he's not comparing feelings in Syria with feelings in UK.


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## Dave70 (26/9/14)

In other news, and ADF member was belted outside his Bela Vista home by a couple of men of hipster appearance. ( the beards are a dead giveaway).
Wonder if they simply followed him home or the database containing address has been compromised? Thats bit of a worry, isn't it?
With a substantial ADF population out my way due to the RAAF base, I fear we may see a heightened hipster activity level.


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## pk.sax (26/9/14)

Could be good for craft beer. They would obviously want to slake that beating induced thirst somewhere locally.

Just take your own glass to the pub though.... Don't fancy em mason jars too much.


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## Dave70 (26/9/14)

Feldon said:


> Lot of people here (all?) seem to have accepted the police version of the incident.
> 
> Just because the cops say something happened a certain way doesn't mean that's the way it was.
> 
> ...


Whilst I agree we should always read between the lines, I think you're being deliberately contrarian here just for the sake of it.

Lets apply a little slash of Occam's razor. 
Whats more likely, two police officers decided to throw their careers down the toilet and face jail time in order beat up a citizen in a public place, or a unstable young man with form for antisocial behavior and radicalized religious beliefs decided he wanted to become a martyr and maby take out a cop or two in the process?

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that some individuals actually believe what they say they believe?


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## philmud (26/9/14)

Meanwhile, when countries fall over themselves reacting to non-specific fears about terror, shit like this happens;

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/09/26/im-really-scared-teen-trapped-home-after-labelled-terror-suspect-fairfax


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## AndrewQLD (26/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> Meanwhile, when countries fall over themselves reacting to non-specific fears about terror, shit like this happens;
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/09/26/im-really-scared-teen-trapped-home-after-labelled-terror-suspect-fairfax


No that's what happens when journalists and editors don't do due diligence and double check stories for inaccuracies, it's absolutely appalling and I hope he sues the newspaper for millions.
Really getting fed up with our media and journalists publishing stories that are inaccurate.


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## Mardoo (26/9/14)

Most journalism I see is infotainment, at best.


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## philmud (26/9/14)

Doesn't happen in a vacuum Andrew. There's a sense of urgency/hysteria that precipitates ****-ups like this. If both the pollies and the media took a deep breath we'd have less hasty journalism and legislation. I agree though, hope he sues the pants off them.


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## manticle (26/9/14)

So shit.

Media get stuff wrong all the time (personal experience of this) but to stuff something like that up is really poor. Thus my earlier disclaimers of 'if media reports are true'.


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## wide eyed and legless (26/9/14)

An example of journalists reporting what they either think or were told was the killings of the three IRA militants on Gibraltar, what really happened we will never know unless we surmise that it was an execution after it was revealed that the SAS were ordered to take no prisoners during the Iranian embassy siege and executed on the spot two of the terrorists who had surrendered.
I believe that if you decide to align yourself to a terrorist organisation,especially one which has no regard for human rights, post things on a Facebook page about intentions to commit harm to others then it can only be expected that dire consequences could be coming your way.


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## BadSeed (26/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> Meanwhile, when countries fall over themselves reacting to non-specific fears about terror, shit like this happens;
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/09/26/im-really-scared-teen-trapped-home-after-labelled-terror-suspect-fairfax


Poor kid, the result of knee jerk hysteria.

On the subject of believing the police and media version of events.
Remember this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Butcher

A gang of blokes started a brawl in a pub on an afternoon the bar staff asked 2 regulars (a father and son) to help out.

So the cops turned up , tasered the guy (55 yo) who was trying to stop the fight and was urging his cop mates to taser him more while he was on the ground.
The mans son headbutted the cop to stop him from repeatedly tasering his, already on the floor, father.

The cops lied about it repeatedly in the media. released a heavily doctored video. The main tasering headbutted cop then turned up to court in a wheelchair which he hasn't been seen in since.

Mostly came out in court and the headbutting guy was found to be not-guilty of all charges.
Disgusting behaviour by the cops and media and all strangely silent after the court case.


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## philmud (26/9/14)

manticle said:


> So shit.
> 
> Media get stuff wrong all the time (personal experience of this) but to stuff something like that up is really poor. Thus my earlier disclaimers of 'if media reports are true'.


Media get stuff wrong most often when they are clamouring to get a story out first.


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## Dave70 (26/9/14)

manticle said:


> So shit.
> 
> Media get stuff wrong all the time (*personal experience of this*) but to stuff something like that up is really poor. Thus my earlier disclaimers of 'if media reports are true'.


Did a candid photo of you sipping a beer at the local somehow find its way into an article about die hard fans enjoying a drink in preparation for that evenings Radiators (feat Uncanny X men) show?
I could see how that would be devastating.


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## manticle (26/9/14)

It was a Pink show but yeah along those lines.


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## BadSeed (26/9/14)

Dave70 said:


> Did a candid photo of you sipping a beer at the local somehow find its way into an article about die hard fans enjoying a drink in preparation for that evenings Radiators (feat Uncanny X men) show?
> I could see how that would be devastating.


This did actually happen to me,
I was photographed at a festival and labelled as an Inspiral Carpets fan when I was really there to see The Cramps


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## wide eyed and legless (26/9/14)

Nine arrested in London in co-ordinated dawn raids by counter terrorist task force, looks like the come in for a chat and a cup of tea hasn't caught on over there.

Sailor in Sydney withdraws claims he was attacked by 2 men of middle eastern appearance.


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## philmud (26/9/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Sailor in Sydney withdraws claims he was attacked by 2 men of middle eastern appearance.


I read a statement on Twitter ostensibly from ADF stating that the allegations have been withdrawn. I say ostensibly because I'm unsure if authentic, though was tweeted by a well reputed journo (Mark Colvin). 

Just a reminder that yesterday, Occam's razor said the assault took place as it was reported.

Edit:

Link to the story. It was authentic:

http://m.smh.com.au/national/australian-defence-force-member-withdraws-attack-complaint-20140926-10mfgg.html?skin=smart-phone


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## Blind Dog (26/9/14)

BadSeed said:


> This did actually happen to me,
> I was photographed at a festival and labelled as an Inspiral Carpets fan when I was really there to see The Cramps


So This is how it feels?


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## Camo6 (26/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> I read a statement on Twitter ostensibly from ADF stating that the allegations have been withdrawn. I say ostensibly because I'm unsure if authentic, though was tweeted by a well reputed journo (Mark Colvin).
> 
> Just a reminder that yesterday, Occam's razor said the assault took place as it was reported.


The main difference being that in the case of the former hypothesis there is a dead man and two injured police officers.

With the instance of the ADF personnel it's built on the basis of one man's allegation of being assaulted by two Middle Eastern men, with little else.

Wouldn't the simplest assumption be that his claim of being assaulted by two men of Middle Eastern appearance, while wearing an ADF uniform, directly after the police shooting of a man of Middle Eastern origins, with nothing to show but minor bruising, was untrue?

Either way, a withdrawn allegation doesn't mean that it never happened. One could theorise that it was withdrawn in an effort to prevent further inflammation of the shooting incident. But that's just another assumption of which we have no evidence. The only thing I know for sure is it's four o'clock somewhere and I'm gonna have a beer.


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## philmud (26/9/14)

Camo6 said:


> Wouldn't the simplest assumption be that his claim of being assaulted by two men of Middle Eastern appearance, while wearing an ADF uniform, directly after the police shooting of a man of Middle Eastern origins, with nothing to show but minor bruising, was untrue?


I'm not sure I agree with that - what's your logic? I'd say most crimes that are reported occur in the way the victims claim they occur. Most people (myself included) found it feasible and simply assumed that it happened. When you heard about it, did you genuinely think it was a false report?



Camo6 said:


> Either way, a withdrawn allegation doesn't mean that it never happened


I'd say it's pretty likely that it didn't. Occam's Razor once again.


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## wide eyed and legless (26/9/14)

I for one thought it was genuine, but Camo's theory is plausible, the armed forces have been known to cover things up.


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## Camo6 (26/9/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> I'm not sure I agree with that - what's your logic? I'd say most crimes that are reported occur in the way the victims claim they occur. Most people (myself included) found it feasible and simply assumed that it happened. When you heard about it, did you genuinely think it was a false report?


My logic is that with the case of the shooting there are two injured officers and a dead body. That can't be dispelled. It's a matter of determining _what_ actually happened.

In the case of the ADF person claiming they were assaulted there is little substantial evidence apart from a statement. Therefore it's a matter of first determining _whether_ it actually happened.

When my daughter tells me the cookies fell into her mouth from the top pantry shelf my first and simplest assumption is that she is not telling the truth.


But now I'm just arguing semantics as I'm a stubborn bugger who can never admit if he's wrong.  (And believes not much else makes the same noise as a duck)


The real tragedy here is the two injured officers and the dead kid who was misled by ignorant fucks. My apologies for veering off topic, I shall now withdraw. (bows and backs out of the room)


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## philmud (26/9/14)

Ok, fair enough. I think we're probably arguing different specific points anyway. Let's both have a beer!


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## Cloth Ears (26/9/14)

BadSeed said:


> Poor kid, the result of knee jerk hysteria.
> 
> On the subject of believing the police and media version of events.
> Remember this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Butcher
> ...


Really? "strangely silent after the court case" and "turned up to court in a wheelchair which he hasn't been seen in since", eh? Well, let's see...WA passed those new mandatory sentencing laws as a direct result of this case, so I'm not sure how 'silent' that is. And the guy has been able to learn to walk with a cane (as of 2012) but was still paralysed down the left side and had almost no sight in his left eye. And he did receive a record payout as a direct result. Probably not being able to walk might be a good reason for not being seen.

Any numbnuts who gets involved in a pub brawl should be locked up. Whether it's because the publican asked them to or not. And the use of the headbutt on anyone should have a mandatory 10 year sentence.


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## Camo6 (26/9/14)

Quote Prince Imperial:

Ok, fair enough. I think we're probably arguing different specific points anyway. Let's both have a beer!

Edit: add quote


Haha! Sorry, I was merely coming to Occam's defence as its one of my most fundamental principles. Of religion and politics I step humbly aside and play no part. (Listen to me getting all poetic, can you tell the beers working?)


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## BadSeed (26/9/14)

Cloth Ears said:


> Really? "strangely silent after the court case" and "turned up to court in a wheelchair which he hasn't been seen in since", eh? Well, let's see...WA passed those new mandatory sentencing laws as a direct result of this case, so I'm not sure how 'silent' that is. And the guy has been able to learn to walk with a cane (as of 2012) but was still paralysed down the left side and had almost no sight in his left eye. And he did receive a record payout as a direct result. Probably not being able to walk might be a good reason for not being seen.


Makes no difference to any of my points. The police were in the wrong and deliberately misled the public and used the media to promote their own non-truths.

"Any numbnuts who gets involved in a pub brawl should be locked up. Whether it's because the publican asked them to or not. And the use of the headbutt on anyone should have a mandatory 10 year sentence."

Debatable.
How far would you go to protect your nearest and dearest?

What about a chickenshit who uses weapons on an already subdued victim and calls for his mates to do the same. Hides behind a uniform, deliberately misleads the public?
An armed bully and ringleader of other armed bullies. What should their mandatory sentence be?

People like that have no place in society either and certainly shouldn't be cops.


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/9/14)

Dave70 said:


> Whilst I agree we should always read between the lines, I think you're being deliberately contrarian here just for the sake of it.
> 
> Lets apply a little slash of Occam's razor.
> Whats more likely, two police officers decided to throw their careers down the toilet and face jail time in order beat up a citizen in a public place, or a unstable young man with form for antisocial behavior and radicalized religious beliefs decided he wanted to become a fuctard and maby take out a cop or two in the process?
> ...


Sorry Dave, just had to correct some spelling mistakes.


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## Mardoo (26/9/14)

"I wouldn't do that if I were you, Dave."


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## Jaded and Bitter (27/9/14)

Yeah sad case this,

A few people have mentioned he wasn't all there, which was likely. I also thought drugs like ice and meth can send someone off like this.

But yeah someone pointed out he may have also been given a push by a radical.

I've heard a bit of debate on the radio over whether the police set him off by well, policing him. Which is ludicrous.

Few years back had a couple of mates who destroyed themselves with ice, when they went psychotic what set them off was trivial. They were going to go psycho anyway, they just needed a reason.

Thinking this may be a similar case, maybe someone gave him a nudge, maybe all by himself. If not IS, maybe some other reason.


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## wereprawn (27/9/14)

Jaded and Bitter said:


> Yeah sad case this,
> 
> A few people have mentioned he wasn't all there, which was likely. I also thought drugs like ice and meth can send someone off like this.
> 
> ...


Agree. But is having an invisible friend who sees all, hears all and tells you kill people not just a tad insane ? Depends..... if you are religious ... no.Just come down to the PS for a chat. If your not religious......absolutely........expect the cops and mental health workers on your doorstep to take you to the psyc ward.


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## Seaquebrew (27/9/14)

Knife in my neck, gun in my hand

I'm shooting you in the head till the gun is empty, without pausing to check religious affiliation

Think most would do the same


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## wide eyed and legless (27/9/14)

Oklahoma, man decapitates co-worker after being sacked for trying to convert other workmates to Islam, I say thank goodness we only get the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses knocking on the door to try and convert us, next time they come around here I may give them a hug instead of a, 'No thank you I'm an atheist'.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/9/14)

Christian Crusiaders used to do that type of thing....oh those barbaric christain fundamentalists...


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## Black Devil Dog (27/9/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Christian Crusiaders *used to* do that type of thing....oh those barbaric christain fundamentalists...


Yep, they stopped about 750 years ago, pity some other religions didn't as well.


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## pcmfisher (27/9/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Oklahoma, man decapitates co-worker after being sacked for trying to convert other workmates to Islam, I say thank goodness we only get the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses knocking on the door to try and convert us, next time they come around here I may give them a hug instead of a, 'No thank you I'm an atheist'.


How does it go?

Christians try to convert the rest,

Muslims try to wipe out the rest,

Jews try to exclude the rest..........


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## Mardoo (27/9/14)

I've never quite understood why it's important to have someone else believe the same religion as you do.


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## wide eyed and legless (27/9/14)

I think Mardoo that the reason is each religion believes they are right, so they try to convert those that don't believe in their religion to put them on the right track. HALLE ******* LUJAH.
What a pity that when they fall off the perch they will never realise that all the religious shit they have gone through in there lives was for **** all.
In a couple of hundred years (if global warming,pestilence or Putin doesn't foreclose on the human species) they will look back through history and say,WTF were they playing at.


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## spog (27/9/14)

I know of a number of people who were druggies,out of control idiots etc who were a step away from death or jail but they found God.
They now practice their Christian beliefs and are genuinely nice kind people.
Putting a religious faith to its correct use is ,well correct,I don't know of any true faith that says you must butcher and despise others.
Cheers....spog...


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## wereprawn (27/9/14)

spog said:


> I know of a number of people who were druggies,out of control idiots etc who were a step away from death or jail but they found God.
> They now practice their Christian beliefs and are genuinely nice kind people.
> Putting a religious faith to its correct use is ,well correct,I don't know of any true faith that says you must butcher and despise others.
> Cheers....spog...


Yeah. I've seen the same thing. For the majority, religion has definitely changed their lives for the better. For others, it has led to a violent and tragic form of insanity.The bible, for example, is a bloody horror story for the most part. It encourages things like racism, slavery and genocide. It also encourages peace, love and non-violence. (but usually only to like minded people. The rest should be butchered and despised) So "correct use" is a very grey area and open to huge variations in interpretation.


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## Mardoo (27/9/14)

I really think, after an eff of a lot of years of thinking about it, that religion serves the purpose of teaching people that we are all connected, that as individual beings we are both important to the whole and meaningless - and dead - without it. It attempts to make the point that together we stand, and divided we are conquered. As that, it has been very valuable. I fear a bit moving forward without a socially codified way of teaching this, but I know that we as a species have the capacity to find new ways to make this point to people. Without having to cut their heads off. Really. It's hard to pass on knowledge when the head is separated from the body, although many people seem to live for decades in this condition :blink: Media (not "the media") have increased all culture's contact with other cultures, and it is becoming harder and harder to live within our socially codified religious bubbles. It's not going to work for us to make every bubble the same as our own, but we all have the same things to learn. I haven't yet seen the -ism that is going to teach that to everyone though, but again, it doesn't need to be one source.

The golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - is in at least 13 major religions in one form or another. There are species survival tools that humans need to learn in order to survive as a self-reflective species, among which are the former, as well as "don't shit in your own bed". We seem to have some trouble remembering both of those.

Edited for clarity.


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## luggy (27/9/14)

Well said


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/9/14)

http://youtu.be/jHPOzQzk9Qo


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## Jaded and Bitter (28/9/14)

This may be going to far but.. Judaism, Christianity and Islam is technically the same god... One grew from the other, JC is a prophet of islam, JC was a Jew. etc.

Though living in a desert and not being able to have a nice cold beer at days end has always puzzled me why it caught on. :drinks:

Edit: Prophet not profit, doh.

And... weell.... One of JC's big things was the old turning water into wine. Dunno maybe Medina had a lot of reformed alcoholics in Muhammads time. Dunno, long time ago. well before the nineties anyway.


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## spog (28/9/14)

We humans are the only species on this little blue,brown and green planet that will kill for want.
All other species kill for survival,just a bunch of animals.really.


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## TimT (29/9/14)

_Though living in a desert and not being able to have a nice cold beer at days end has always puzzled me why it caught on_

Interestingly in the Hebrew Bible there are numerous references to beer; amongst other things God was given about half a hin of beer every day - essentially a six pack - as part of the temple ceremonies! (The beer references are usually mistranslated or misunderstood). 

Sounds like we've reached the huggy feely "I love you man, we are all one" part of the thread.


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## pcmfisher (30/9/14)

Mardoo said:


> The golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - is in at least 13 major religions in one form or another.


Is the Golden Rule good because it is in 13 different religions or is it in 13 different religions because it is good?


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## malt and barley blues (30/9/14)

In this day and age I would imagine that most of us would be morally efficient to live peacefully, the scriptures have helped give society a base to work from. I would even challenge that even without having a religious belief most of us would be just as, if not more have compassion towards others which flaw the Saints or Sinners Gallop Poll that puts Australia 10th on the league table, how do the pollsters
differentiate those who take up religion and go to church just as an insurance policy in case there is an after life and those who just like to feel holier than thou.


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