# Harsh Bitterness - Why?



## bcp (9/6/11)

Recently did two APAs, a Sierra Nevada & then a LCPA clone. The Sierra Nevada is just perfect. The LCPA is... harsh. The bitterness is stronger and leaves a not-really-nice after-taste of bitterness. So understanding why they are different is the art of brewing, i think: a pretty useful thing to explore. 

SNPA - 25l batch, 21gm Magnum 60min, 21gm Pearle 25min, 42gm Cascade 10 min. Then dry-hopped with homegrown cascade flowers. UBU 50. 1.051 to 1.011.
LCPA - 25l batch, 5g chinook + 30g East Kent Goldings 60min, 10gm cascade + 10g cluster 20min, 15g cluster +15g cascade 10 min; 25g chinook + 25g cascade (boilout). Dry hop homegrown cascade flowers. IBU 40. 1.050 to 1.007
Same base malt. Same yeast WY1056. I supplemented the yeast in the LCPA with a small amount of the yeast from the SNPA yeast cake, which i didn't wash, but it was from the cleaner part of it. Resulted in the best fermentation i've ever had. 

So why does the LCPA taste much more bitter, and more harsh. My theories:
* Cluster: supposedly has a 'catty' taste. I know Little Creatures have stopped using it. 
* Is the unwashed yeast cake a potential source of off-flavours?
* Does the lower FG 'expose' the bitterness because the maltiness doesn't balance it out?

Other thoughts?

I struck the same blerk bitter aftertaste with the APA of a local microbrewery, actually.


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## QldKev (9/6/11)

What efficiency did you hit for the batches,
what temp did you sparge at?

I'm thinking a possible cause could be astringency

QldKev


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## bradsbrew (9/6/11)

Do you chill or no chill. I have found that chinook (high AA) used late can add an extra bitterness.


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## bcp (9/6/11)

QldKev said:


> What efficiency did you hit for the batches,
> what temp did you sparge at?
> 
> I'm thinking a possible cause could be astringency
> ...


Interesting - never entered my head.

It was BIAB. I sparged the SNPA, but the LCPA i didn't sparge. 
SNPA was 75%. LCPA 'actual efficiency' 71.6% (but beersmith says 'efficiency as calculated from actual volume' was 91%. That can't be right. I need to figure out what the difference is).


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## QldKev (9/6/11)

bcp said:


> Interesting - never entered my head.
> 
> It was BIAB. I sparged the SNPA, but the LCPA i didn't sparge.
> SNPA was 75%. LCPA 'actual efficiency' 71.6% (but beersmith says 'efficiency as calculated from actual volume' was 91%. That can't be right. I need to figure out what the difference is).



efficiency should be measured with taking into account the volume being measured and entered back into the calculator with the original recipe. If you did indeed hit 91% I would be definitely thinking astringency. 

As bradsbrew mentioned the higher AA% hops added late will have a larger effect for no chill by increasing the bitterness. But since you also mentioned 'a not-really-nice after-taste of bitterness' I'm still thinking astringency. 

QldKev


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## Supra-Jim (9/6/11)

I personally don't mind it, but many people find Chinook rather harsh (good but harsh). And you threw 25gms in at 0mins.

Cheers SJ


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## mxd (9/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> I personally don't mind it, but many people find Chinook rather harsh (good but harsh). And you threw 25gms in at 0mins.
> 
> Cheers SJ




I no chill and find chinook a tough Hop to love, I keep trying


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## bcp (9/6/11)

Oops, i meant the chinook is said to have a catty taste and may be the problem, not the cluster. 

Or astringency. I forgot that i mashed out at 78C, and with BIAB that means heating it up to that temp.


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## tavas (9/6/11)

I had a problem with harsh bitterness due to no chilling. I ended up treating no chill as a 15 min addition and adjust accordingly. May or may not be of help to your situation.


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## Gopha (9/6/11)

I would check your mash pH and the pH of your sparge water. My experience with full volume mashes is that the ph does not drop enough and sparge pH is just as important as your sparge temp to prevent picking up astringency from your grain husks- Cheers


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## beerdrinkingbob (9/6/11)

short answer is Magnum IMO, unless you changed your salts!!

Bittered a beer with magnum to neary 75 IBU's and compaired it to a galaxy 60 IBU's, WOW Galaxy was harsh, Magnum smooooothhhhh, Just ordered some warrior for the higher ibu beers!!


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## manticle (9/6/11)

I'm with Supra Jim and would put my finger on the late large chinook addition.

Try exactly the same recipe but break most of that chinook up between 25 and 10 minutes in small, frequent additions. Add the last 5g at F/O.

Astringency is a possbility but if it's not a frequent problem and there's nothing you've changed about your process then I'd look at hop usage first. 78 degree mashout shouldn't cause issues.


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## Bribie G (9/6/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Do you chill or no chill. I have found that chinook (high AA) used late can add an extra bitterness.



I made an small experimental SMASH Malt liquo' brew with some Milo-destined malt I'd acquired which is highly diastatic - malt/ polenta and decided to use Chinook - accidentally miscalculated and put in the equivalent of what would be a 40g dose in a normal batch instead of a 20. 





I also got harsh bitterness last year at the BABBs American comp when I did an Amber with Chinook in the mixture. I treat it with huge respect now


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## Ross (9/6/11)

As mentioned previously, almost definately the chinook addition...

cheers Ross


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## drsmurto (9/6/11)

Have noted before in at least 1 brewers sig.

Ask 2 brewers the same question, get 3 answers.

I'm going to suggest a different reason and that is your FG.

50 IBU and an FG of 1.011 vs 40 IBU and an FG of 1.007.

At 1.007 you have much less 'malt' left in your beer to balance the bitterness and I find in beers that attenuate that low that even 40 IBU is out of whack.

That said, chinook is a much harsher bittering hop than the super smooth magnum so maybe it's a bit of both reasons.


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## bcp (9/6/11)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> ... unless you changed your salts!!


I have been fiddling with salts. Amazing how many details i'd forgotten. I'm on Cardinia water and have been throwing in some calcium chloride and sodium chloride and this has really helped efficiency. I also threw in pH5.2 stabilizer.  It was a good day for chucking stuff in. What does that do to the bitterness?

Quite some consensus on the chinook, and i've been told it can mellow out after a couple of months.


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## bcp (9/6/11)

bcp said:


> I have been fiddling with salts. Amazing how many details i'd forgotten. I'm on Cardinia water and have been throwing in some calcium chloride and sodium chloride and this has really helped efficiency. I also threw in pH5.2 stabilizer.  It was a good day for chucking stuff in. What does that do to the bitterness?
> 
> Quite some consensus on the chinook, and i've been told it can mellow out after a couple of months.



Just googling and found this on a forum:
"I've found that as a bittering hop, Chinook does not like high carbonate water. It results a harsh bitterness that takes a quite a while to mellow. Lowering my carbonates made a big difference."
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/mmmmmm-chi...275/index3.html


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## manticle (9/6/11)

Calcium chloride will push the malt profle in the right amount. Sodium chloride will accentuate general flavour but I haven't been a fan of beers I have tried it in. 

Not sure either of those would result in what you are describing. Calcium sulphate will push hop profile and accentuate bitterness in the right amount but too much is not a good thing. All brewing salts should be used with caution.


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## ekul (10/6/11)

I've been doing a mash out and sparge lately to push up efficiency, it has made my beers a bit woody and bitter. I think its astringency. I'm going to go splurgfe on the extra 50c of grain and go back to a lower efficiency.


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## argon (10/6/11)

For what it's worth I :wub: chinook especially paired with cascade and or Amarillo. I enjoy it's strong piney grapefruit bitterness. I've never had a harshness from i and always throw bucket loads in. It's one of my most used hops. Almost all American beers for me cop a good addition.

The point about the fg is a good one. The balance may be a touch out with a beer at 1007. This could well be your problem. Also I've never used cluster (due to it's use in XXXX <_< ) but it's not something that little creatures use in the Pale. It's my understanding that it's EKG/cascade and a little galaxy.


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## bcp (10/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> I personally don't mind it, but many people find Chinook rather harsh (good but harsh). And you threw 25gms in at 0mins.
> 
> Cheers SJ



Ok, this is stretching my understanding. This is how i've understood it: 
25gms at mins should be MINIMAL bittering. 
Breaking it up and putting some in earlier should INCREASE bitterness.
I should be getting mostly aroma at 0 mins. 

I do no-chill, so i accept this effectively makes it more like a 10 minute addition. But I don't get why everyone agrees i'm getting bittering from such a late addition, with minimal heat/time to isomerise the alpha acids. 

Loads of good discussion in this thread from everyone, appreciated. Understanding anything is like one of those thread patterns - you start with a simple logic of how it works and then you just keep making more and more connections as you go.


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## manticle (10/6/11)

Even dry hopping adds flavour. The 0 mins = aroma only is a bit of a furphy in my experience and should be seen as a guide only.


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## .DJ. (10/6/11)

bcp said:


> Ok, this is stretching my understanding. This is how i've understood it:
> 25gms at mins should be MINIMAL bittering.
> Breaking it up and putting some in earlier should INCREASE bitterness.
> I should be getting mostly aroma at 0 mins.
> ...



since you are calculating as a 10 min addition (most use 15) you are still getting IBU's (bitterness), and if you are using a high AA hop, it can be enough to tip it over the edge.. especially with a FG of 1.007


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## Supra-Jim (10/6/11)

Hi bcp,

I think (and I am no-chill newbie) that your wort is above 70deg for quite a while (I would think easily 30-45mins). IIRC 70degC is approx. the temp above which you are extracting bitterness from the hops.

Even as a dry hop Chinook can be considered harsh.

You may be experiencing a couple of factors in this brew. The late high alpha hopping and the low final could easily combine to accentuate any harsh bitterness.

Cheers SJ


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## eamonnfoley (10/6/11)

Gopha said:


> I would check your mash pH and the pH of your sparge water. My experience with full volume mashes is that the ph does not drop enough and sparge pH is just as important as your sparge temp to prevent picking up astringency from your grain husks- Cheers



+1 thinner mash means that the buffering power of the grains is reduced. What is the alkalinity of your water?


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## Malted (10/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> Hi bcp,
> 
> I think (and I am no-chill newbie) that your wort is above 70deg for quite a while (I would think easily 30-45mins). IIRC 70degC is approx. the temp above which you are extracting bitterness from the hops.
> 
> ...



I no chill and yes it does stay above 70oC for quite some time.
And if this is the case, your 15 min additions are actually contributing bitterness levels of 30 - 45 minute additions...

Interesting discussion here: Adjusting IBU's for no chill some folks are saying ALL additions need to be _*calculated*_ as +15-20 min when you no chill.

I made an APA recently with homegrown Chinook as the only hop in it. My mega-swill drinking Dad claimed that some of my first all grain beers tasted like kit beer but he did not say that about the Chinook APA. Reckons it is one of the best beers he has ever had.

Here's something you can try, I have and it's very good. As reported by BribieG "No chill Q" where BribieG wrote this
 "Brilliant "new" method introduced by *Argon* (Bris) that a few of us are experimenting with:

Do a brew but just with the bittering addition
Cube
Cool overnight then bang into a fridge and bring the whole thing down to around 8 degrees
Remove 2 or 3 litres into a stockpot, bring to boil and do the 10 min or flameout or whatever you like additions. 
Pour the hot and the cold wort into the FV
Pitch immediately

There are good mixing calculators on the web for mixing _x_ litres at _a_ degrees with _y_ litres at _b_ degrees........
Results mimic rapid chilled worts (plate, coil etc)

If you can't manage the whole cube in a fridge, alternatively do the stockpot boil and then rapidly chill in ice bath in laundry sink etc. "


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## schooey (10/6/11)

I am curious to explore what you call 'harsh'

In my early days of frigging about with water chemistry, I went a bit nutso with the Calcium Sulphate additions and those beers turn oud to have a really out of place bitter harshness, kind of like a grainy mouthfeel, almost sandy if that makes sense...

From my experience, when Chinook is out of balance in a beer, it's more like when someone has made a bitter orange marmalade too bitter. It's more like what I would describe as an oily, resiny, smoother smack you in the face bitterness....literally like chewing raw citrus peel


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## argon (10/6/11)

FWIW i put in 50g of Chinook in the last 20mins in my LFPA and i certainly wouldn't describe it as harsh. I know in the LFPA recipe thread some people have reported harshness when the beer is young, but ends up blending nicely, with a touch of age. How old is the beer you're reporting to be harsh? maybe some time and it will come good.


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## HoppingMad (10/6/11)

A few possibles going on:

- Water additions bumping up the hop character of an already hoppy beer with a few potential hops already clashing. 

- The SNPA finished higher on gravity - so it is sweeter, whereas the LCPA is drier. The sweetness on SNPA may be working better to balance the beer versus the drier LCPA. The dryness would affect your mouthfeel a little so this could be a part of what you don't like about the LCPA, and the 'cattyness' on the tongue. That said 1.007 isn't a hugely dry beer, but it could be your personal taste coming through.

- Late addition of chinook. To my knowledge Little Creatures use Chinook either in Bittering (60 min) or Flavour addition (40-30 min mark) depending on the clone recipe you check around the trap and the chatter online. Lot of debate but consensus is EKG bittering, Chinook Flavouring and Cascade additions late. My advice would be lose the harsh chinook on the end and you will have a much better beer truer to the original.

- Cluster is a great hop used well for bittering in XXXX and many US drops. Many people are starting to experiment more with using this one as a late addition in commercials according to Ellerslie Hop (Beer & Brewer Mag article from a month ago), and is becoming known as more of a dual purpose hop - so I don't think the Cluster is the issue really, just the combo of late hopping you're using and the late chinook.

- If it were me I'd be going a big whack of cascade at the end instead only for a nice yummy aroma.

Hopper.


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## bcp (10/6/11)

schooey said:


> I am curious to explore what you call 'harsh'
> 
> In my early days of frigging about with water chemistry, I went a bit nutso with the Calcium Sulphate additions and those beers turn oud to have a really out of place bitter harshness, kind of like a grainy mouthfeel, almost sandy if that makes sense...
> 
> From my experience, when Chinook is out of balance in a beer, it's more like when someone has made a bitter orange marmalade too bitter. It's more like what I would describe as an oily, resiny, smoother smack you in the face bitterness....literally like chewing raw citrus peel


Schooey, you're a freaking poet. Raw citrus peel/orange marmalade too bitter is a good description.


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## bcp (10/6/11)

argon said:


> FWIW i put in 50g of Chinook in the last 20mins in my LFPA and i certainly wouldn't describe it as harsh. I know in the LFPA recipe thread some people have reported harshness when the beer is young, but ends up blending nicely, with a touch of age. How old is the beer you're reporting to be harsh? maybe some time and it will come good.


Just a few weeks, so lots of space for optimism on that front.


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## bcp (10/6/11)

foles said:


> +1 thinner mash means that the buffering power of the grains is reduced. What is the alkalinity of your water?


No idea. It's cardinia water and i had some pH stabiliser in it. Something to think about measuring when i get a... pH-measurer.


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