# Kit & Kilo Suppliers Are Con Artists



## Pumpy (11/12/08)

In MY opinion it is unfair suppliers of the Kit and kilos claiming that there malt extract will be similar to well known brands 

even Coopers Pale Ale kit bears no resemblance .

they are nothing but rip off Merchants misleading the public for Capitalist gains only.

Enough said !!!

No They are a bunch of F#*%ing [email protected]#$ers :angry: ( did I spell that wrong )

Pumpy ( with Che Guavara hat on ) 

used to have a poster of him on my bedroom door 

Pumpy Guavara


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## flattop (11/12/08)

Hmm Che did a lot of nasty shit b4 he became a national hero.... that aside i kind of agree
It's sort of bad karma marketing to a flavor that you have no hope of reproducing.


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## jayandcath (11/12/08)

Pumpy, easy mate.
Has there been a change in your medications lately????  
I see a few hot under the collar posts in the last few days, thought you must have run out of beer.  

But you are spot on, you go to you LHBS and the old snapper behind the counter sells you all these cans and premixed "boosters" and says "You can't tell the difference" and after I brew it i say "Bullshit!!!" Best thing I did was go to AG and the beers actually taste like beers in the fridge at the local bottle shop. I must get off the soap box now, the wife needs something.

Jay


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## flattop (11/12/08)

That said, i bought a 3K Hoegaarden clone to try, a mate said it was pretty close.
I like Hoegaarden so i am willing to give it a shot.
I think after that i will move to BIAB.


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## Adamt (11/12/08)

...?


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## clean brewer (11/12/08)

Totally f--king agree, my LHBS really gives me the shits(i only go there when i have to), but before I started doing kits and bits and now AG, I bought this kit(about $24) and it was a JAMES BOAGS kit, what a load of shit, this store has nearly every beer at the bottle shop, that can be sold as a K&K as that cetain brand of beer... :angry: 

I had got one of these from this store and one from another store and both turned out so shit that I rung the first store and asked what was in the so-called booster pack and all I got as a response was "my wife makes them up" for f--ks sake, these places wonder why they collapse...

Luckily, I got onto this site and got out of that K&K mentality and what these stores push onto people, as I say at work "IT'S NOT FAIR"

All I can say to the potential brewers out there starting off, if you want to replicate commercial crap(corona, vb, xxxx whatever) forget home brewing and just go buy it from the pub, if you want to brew, try brewing beer that has some sort of "COLOUR, FLAVOUR, AROMA" and expand your senses..  

Im a Chef(and a good 1) and still today there are people that are spending money on Food that they can still make at home(steak and veg) and paying money for it??????????? Shit, I do food that you cant really do at home and that tastes good aswell, the same as Craftbrewing, I think.... Does my head in most days... :blink: 

Cheers


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## jonocarroll (11/12/08)

@Pumpy - if you're gonna take on this argument against "Coopers Pale" kits, you had better be prepared to take on "chicken" potato chips, "raspberry" cordial and "beef" "noodles". Not to mention "Kentucky" "Fried" "Chicken".

And I'd be wary of someone who had a poster of the butcher of La Cabaa on their door. Ain't capitalism quirky?


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## brendo (11/12/08)

QuantumBrewer said:


> @Pumpy - if you're gonna take on this argument against "Coopers Pale" kits, you had better be prepared to take on "chicken" potato chips, "raspberry" cordial and "beef" "noodles". Not to mention "Kentucky" "Fried" "Chicken".



Lets not forget Burger rings - I like em but not sure I want a burger that tastes like em...


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## porky (11/12/08)

Pumpy said:


> Pumpy ( with Che Guavara hat on )
> 
> used to have a poster of him on my bedroom door
> 
> Pumpy Guavara



I would suggest to you that if you lived in his country you would have much bigger things to bitch about






I live by "buyer beware", but like the fact that I have a choice...the old adage..fu#k me once shame on you fu#k me twice, shame on me  


cheers,
Bud


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## matti (11/12/08)

Pumpy watch out for any kebabs flying back at you.

All merchants are the same, trying to make a buck out of selling you the goods.
I recall the days of my 1st Kit an kilo bought from Manfreds now closed brew shop.
It was not a advertised as a replica but a similar type of beer.
Yep A VB clone and it tasted better and less watery then a Real VB.
Thank good I have progressed since then LOL

Then again I cannot vouch for all vendors of Kit and Kilo as I only tried a handful before partials an AG.

On the other side of thing
I still got my Che Guevara badge from High school and I am a communistic socialist by heart but a capitalist by default.
I blame mankind for all things that I cannot achieve by own means  

matti


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## peas_and_corn (11/12/08)

The other day I spotted my LHBS owner musing about recent sales...






"Ahh, how many "pale ale" kits did I sell today? FOOLS... bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!"


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## Bribie G (11/12/08)

The tragic thing is that the kit manufacturers 'hobble' them from the start and don't allow them to shine. If 'tricked up' with good grains, some flavouring hops and a better yeast they can produce something nicely drinkable. I've started AG but today whilst clearing out my current stocks of kits n bits and partials my assistant brewer and I knocked over a few pints of a humble Coopers Lager which has been 'enhanced' with three hop additions and a minimash of Bairds Pom lager malt, fermented with a Nottingham yeast and crystal clear with gelatine and polyclar.

As good as anything on tap at the local. However the average K n K punter wouldn't have a clue how to brew something like that unless they frequent forums like this. And most K n K merchants wouldn't have a clue how to advise the brewer apart from the enhancer made up by the missus.

I really think that, rather than blaming the LHBS, we should petition companies such as Coopers to lift their game by improving the flavour and aroma hops, perhaps switch to 3kg kits that incorporate an 'enhancer' and provide a far better yeast. The resulting brew might not win any mini-comps but would surely retain more beginning home brewers by achieving a far better 'out of the box' brewing experience.

Also they might stress temperature control.


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## jonocarroll (11/12/08)

BribieG said:


> Also they might stress temperature control.


You mean, you want them to actually have some correct information on the *instructions* _as well as_ the label? Aren't we pushing our luck a little?


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## MHB (12/12/08)

Two questions:-

Know any rich home brew shop owners?

How come extract/kit brewers are still wining places, classes and even comps? Yes I mean good ones with trained judges.

Is the industry perfect far from it, like any there are those that try hard and those that dont.

Remember that something like 70% of home brewers in Oz never visit a specialty store (nor AHB), a very large portion of the home brew made is produced to satisfy a desire for cheap alcohol.

People that like beer with flavour are a small minority, Premium Boutique and Craft beer added together (thats Crown, Hahn and all the rest included) account for only about 5% of the beer sold.

Please put your thoughts to those that can change things, I think they will say F%[email protected] You Pumpy, take a quick reality check.

MHB


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## dr K (12/12/08)

well, for starters a beer made from malt extract will be different from one made from malt, that is a given and that is why wort kits though expensive to transport and thus expensive to buy are so good compared to gook its.
however to have a go at your LHBS may not be warranted, sure as in all industries there are variations, a number of retailers are regular contributors to this forum, think of that big bloke with the ciggy from Newcastle, great contributor and from all reports a fantastic guy to buy from, and from personal experience a great guy to yak to about all sorts of things, add to that the others who fall under the "Retailer" banner, now not all the retailers here sell kits and kellogs but have some repect for those who do.
I got a bit of criticism (not much and not really criticism I guess) recently for sort of supporting a Canberra LHBS.
Personally I have not bought anything from that shop for over 5 years, others I know also choose to buy elsewhere, whilst I would not endorse that business (how could I) I am not in a position to criticise them either as I have no first hand knowledge. When people ask me where they could (not should) buy from I suggest they contact the local as well as a couple of wel known businesses whose banners are above and make their own decision.
Yes, things have changed a lot in the last 15 years regarding homebrewing and much of that has been as a result of your LHBS, be thankfull not cynical.

K


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## dr K (12/12/08)

woops
MHB beat me to it...
and did a better job.....

K


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## daemon (12/12/08)

I wonder who's really to blame here, the suppliers or the clients? Are the suppliers just providing what the clients want? When you look at the sales of XXXX / VB here in Australia, it seems for the most part we (as a country) enjoy a cold, virtually tasteless lager. I'm assuming this is why the kits closely mirror what we already have, but start to branch out into other flavours as well. You can't blame the LHBS / manufacturer for supplying what people want, they're in it to make a living afterall.

You can spit at the K&K mentality if you like, but most of us started there  If many have moved onto better beers and ultimately AG brewing, is the K&K stuff really that bad?


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## clean brewer (12/12/08)

MHB said:


> Two questions:-
> 
> Know any rich home brew shop owners?
> 
> ...



Its like any business I know, its up to the store to make the best of their business that they can, if you know the product and the best way to use it and by suggestive selling, its easy to improve the success of your business.. If you can give great advice and show that you do care about what you do, customers love it and will take it on board/or not.. The other people that just do it for cheap piss and havnt visited a HBS, well thats up to them and if they do happen to visit a HBS well then they should hopefully be in a situation to tell these people something different than what they are reading off a can that they dont already know themselves...

Customers put their trust in business's and when they dont deliver(consistantly), what happens, they go belly up..  Shit, their are so many people that buy business's that have no real experience in that field at all(just some $$) and 6 months later, they are broke..

Look at 1 of the Sponsors, havnt really been in it that long but strives to bring everything/anything to brewers and gives great honest advice and service and seems to be one of the most used Homebrew business's?? You dont get that way by talking a whole lot of crap and/or not know what your talking about or what your selling..

Gotta know your product and how to use/sell it..


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## Effect (12/12/08)

Can the people that actually buy VB and New really tell the difference between them?

Pumpy you aren't in the target market segment for buying cheap kits to make beer at home. You have an understanding of beer - which most people don't.

I am a DJ and have a very good understanding of mixing music. When I go out and listen to djs playing - they are shit - but know one knows.....because they aren't educated...they think it is good.

So wouldn't someone that had **** all idead about beer be happy with a cheap kit they get from a HBS?

The LHBS is catering to a market - just cause you don't exist in that market doesn't mean it shouldn't exist...


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## kook (12/12/08)

flattop said:


> Hmm Che did a lot of nasty shit b4 he became a national hero.... that aside i kind of agree



Most of those wearing shirts with his face on it probably never realised that he was responsible for the death of at least 216 people (link), if not many more. The very anti establishment views they have would have got them prison service or killed when he was around. 



> In a famous speech in 1961, Che Guevara denounced the very "spirit of rebellion" as "reprehensible."
> 
> "Youth must refrain from ungrateful questioning of governmental mandates" commanded Guevara. "Instead, they must dedicate themselves to study, work, and military service."


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## Fatgodzilla (12/12/08)

[


> quote name='Pumpy' date='Dec 11 2008, 09:50 PM' post='387910']
> In MY opinion it is unfair suppliers of the Kit and kilos claiming that there malt extract will be similar to well known brands



Caveat Emptor. If you believe everything you read, I have a Harbour Bridge I think you would be interested in.



> > even Coopers Pale Ale kit bears no resemblance .



I'm pretty certain they have ever said it did. Prove they did and I will believe you.




> they are nothing but rip off Merchants misleading the public for Capitalist gains only.


Three arguments here I have a problem with- _nothing but rip off merchants _? What, all of them ? _Misleading the public _? what as a collective or consortium or some form of cartel ? _for capitalist gains only_ - what, they should be a community service ?



> _Enough said !!!_.



Enough said.

It was Voltaire who said ( loosely translated from his native French) I do not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it. I'll agree with that. But they guillouitined old Voltaire anyway !


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## trevc (12/12/08)

If new brewers aren't bright enough to do some simple research, they *deserve* to be left in the dark, drinking kits with boo$ter A and B. What's wrong with retailers and kit producers catering to that market?

We're the minority here. It's not like the average brewer/drinker even cares about what ingredients are in the kit, so long as it produces a beery beverage in the end.


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## Thirsty Boy (12/12/08)

I wonder how much of this is a mismatch between a skilled brewer and taster, and the results achieved by new brewers and/or those new to thinking analytically about beer flavour?

I remember being a new kit brewer - those beers were in retrospect fairly bloody average, but they got better as I got experience, and if I had researched and learned the amount of things I have learned since I embarked upon AG brewing - I suspect that I could have made a very nice kit beer indeed (one of these days I am going to try, just to see if its true)

I think that this is supported by the fact that every now and again, a kit beer pops up and wins categories or even trophies at the comps. They can be made well, and they can be made well to style. So there is no reason that a knowledgeable brewer couldn't take a coopers pale ale kit, apply their knowledge and produce a fair facsimile of an actual Coopers Pale Ale. It might not be exactly the same - but then again its fairly likely that it would be just as close as I could get trying to make an AG clone of the same beer. 

I'm not saying that there aren't some useless twats out there running homebrew shops and banking on the fact that a large number of punters couldn't tell a crownie from a coopers red - but there are also good LHBS owners and I suspect that if you handed then one of their own kits, they might just be able to produce a fairly respectable version of the claimed clone beer.

Hardly their fault if the people who buy their kits sometimes dont have the skills to bring them to their full potential.


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## Murcluf (12/12/08)

Quoting a LHBS owner when I was a new to brewing " If you visit a LHBS you are in a minority of around 10% of those who home brew the other 90% go to the supermarket buy a can and a bag, your here because you want to learn more about the art of making a good beer and not just about making cheap booze" He was right I was and I moved very quickly to extract then partial and then to all grain and he encouraged me to have a go. He never said to me take this can and this booster pack and it will make a beer that tastes like this beer. If anything he would say it will brew a beer to this style ie a stout, pilsner, or IPA. Mind you I have never purchased a booster pack because I could never see how adding that much sugar into a brew would make it taste better. 

LHBS have there place, some are good and some are dodgy but isn't that with all thing's in life, especially where man and money are involved. 

Option 1: If you are not happy with the LHBS you could start a revolution "Che" and open your own HBS and show everyone how it should done, and the uneducated brewing masses will come flocking to your store to be truly enlightened in the ways of your superior brewing craftsmanship. And the world will be a better place as we all march to the beat your home brewing drum.

Option 2:We can just sit here slinging mud and cutting down anyone who tries to make a living out of a LHBS, any of those who have new ideas on how to do things or anyone who is new to brewing. 

Strangely enough I think the so called self confessed Che's of this world will take option 2 nearly every time.

"Viva the LHBS Revolution Che, Viva the Revolution....!!!!" :beerbang:


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## WilBier (12/12/08)

Making it for the people who drink it.

You know I have had many a long night sampling both beer and wine with a good friend of mine who is a wine maker.
He says the biggest challenge of being a wine maker is to make something that people will drink and enjoy.
You have to make something that appeals to the general masses I.e: commercial crap.
If he made wine for himself to enjoy, the majority of people that tried it would probably spit it out. 
Same goes for commercial main-stream music, and commercial replicable beers: un-offensive, plain , ordinary. the list goes on... But people buy it

I think it has been already well said in this thread that the majority of of the K&K market is sold at the supermarkets.
People buying that want cheap, quaffable, alcoholic crap, but don't necessarily take it further. 
Hey - it's a good hobby. 
But the few of us that get hooked on it go down the road and learn it and research it (thanks to this site) and progress to better and more complex and eventually AG.

And never look back. 

Except of course that when we do look back we see that we started out making 'home-brew' from sticky tins with water and yeast, that in comparison to what we make now and what we enjoy now isn't on the same planet.
Except that the people here are here. We aren't in the 90% that buy cheap kits from the supermarket. The majority aren't (any more) in the 10% that buy kits plus 'boosters' from the LHBS for $38 for 18l....
But we did go through those 2 phases, and we are on the other side, now even more interested in making beers. 
So to defend the K&K products, and the people that sell them (No I have never seen a rich one either) they got us here. 
And when we look back, we realise we were sold lies and sticky crap that in comparison is inferior and ultimately more expensive. 

Aah this is fun isn't it


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## rclemmett (12/12/08)

It's all a little hard to swallow.......

Good quality kits with flavour. The country brewer has kits with real hops in them, which minus the yeast are good IMHO, but are over $18. Most K+K brewers, not those on this site, would never pay that much!

LHBS claiming kits and bit to clone commercial beers. How would you get a customer through the door? The average Australian beer drinker knows NOTHING about beer! How could they, they are loyal to their one brand. The only way you can describe beer to these people is to relate it to something they might have tried.

LHBS being a rip off. These people do provide a service to the community! Could you imagine a more frustrating job for little gain? You get a customer, but then how do you keep them? HBS are like gateway drugs, chances are you'll move onto better stuff or start earning more money and kick the habit. 

Kit beers being crap. I think it takes more skill to make a K+K beer good, than to make AG good. I have made good AG and partials, but never good K+K.

and


clean brewer said:


> Im a Chef(and a good 1) and still today there are people that are spending money on Food that they can still make at home(steak and veg) and paying money for it??????????? Shit, I do food that you cant really do at home and that tastes good aswell, the same as Craftbrewing, I think.... Does my head in most days... :blink:


Not trying to pick a fight, but why can't it be made at home. This reads to me that good beer can't be made at home. :blink:


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## afromaiko (12/12/08)

I have the feeling that some are just selling K&K to help legitimise their main business of hydroponic gear.


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## captaincleanoff (12/12/08)

Rob2 said:


> Kit beers being crap. I think it takes more skill to make a K+K beer good, than to make AG good. I have made good AG and partials, but never good K+K.



:lol: :lol: thats because K+Ks are shit!


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## rclemmett (12/12/08)

captaincleanoff said:


> :lol: :lol: thats because K+Ks are shit!



That's one way of looking at it :icon_cheers: 

People keep saying they win awards though.............


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## staggalee (12/12/08)

Pumpy, you must have been pissed when you made the first post in this thread.
You couldn`t even spell Guevara`s name right.
Some fan. :lol: 

stagga.


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## Frank (12/12/08)

Dont get angry.....Get AG'ing.....
100's of people can't be wrong.


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## staggalee (12/12/08)

You don`t all think that pumpy HIMSELF might be the con artist here, then? :lol: 

stagga.


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## Katherine (12/12/08)

I can't believe this thread... you guys that bored....


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## MaestroMatt (12/12/08)

RDWHAHB  

LHBS are always going to have ingredients for the novice and advanced brewer alike. So, it shouldn't matter to the advanced brewer if they sell cheap stuff or not. You are never going to buy it because of all the other good quality ingredients that YOU know of.

Everyone has to start somewhere - I will never be ashamed of buying a k+k if it means I can develop my skills in the brewing process. Better to waste a kit than a grain bill. 



Matt


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## clean brewer (12/12/08)

Rob2 said:


> It's all a little hard to swallow.......
> 
> Good quality kits with flavour. The country brewer has kits with real hops in them, which minus the yeast are good IMHO, but are over $18. Most K+K brewers, not those on this site, would never pay that much!
> 
> ...








I dont want to fight either, yeh, sorry, I wrote that a little wrong.. Ill think about what I meant to say... :unsure:


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## Swinging Beef (12/12/08)

I think there are some mighty fine K&K kits about.
And, back to my favorite analogy, there are some great pasta sauces available off the shelf.
Im likely to throw down a coopers or esb kit in the next week.


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## antains (12/12/08)

When I go to my LHBS in Greensborough, I am more interested in looking at what is beyond the can. I've picked up a few specialty cans to try them, but I really didn't expect them to be identical. I'm enjoying the Newcastle Brown at the moment, but I know it is absolutely nothing like the original.

This is reminding me of the commercial beers that get brewed under licence, such as Heineken, Stella Artois and Guinness. With Guinness in particular, the adage goes that the Guinness gets better the closer you get to Ireland.

Maybe it's that experience that lowered my expectations with clones.

Now to argue, dissect, agree and just have some fun.



flattop said:


> Hmm Che did a lot of nasty shit b4 he became a national hero.... that aside i kind of agree
> It's sort of bad karma marketing to a flavor that you have no hope of reproducing.



It's because he did that sh*t that he became a hero for Cuba.



jayandcath said:


> ...
> But you are spot on, you go to you LHBS and the old snapper behind the counter sells you all these cans ...






dr K said:


> ...think of that big bloke with the ciggy from Newcastle, ...



Hmmm, these descriptions match that of the guy at Heidelberg.  



Phillip said:


> Can the people that actually buy VB and New really tell the difference between them?



Strangely, yes. At least in Victoria and New South Wales.  



kook said:


> Most of those wearing shirts with his face on it probably never realised that he was responsible for the death of at least 216 people (link), if not many more. The very anti establishment views they have would have got them prison service or killed when he was around.



I once saw a guy getting into a Porsche wearing one of these t-shirts. I didn't have a chance to see if he was being ironical. I suspect he just didn't understand, though.



Murcluf said:


> ...
> Option 1: If you are not happy with the LHBS you could start a revolution "Che" and open your own HBS and show everyone how it should done, and the uneducated brewing masses will come flocking to your store to be truly enlightened in the ways of your superior brewing craftsmanship. And the world will be a better place as we all march to the beat your home brewing drum.



Actually, Che was somewhat of a mercenary, in as much as he joined Castro's revolution. When he'd had enough of being involved in the changes that took place in Cuba, he travelled a lot and ended up in Bolivia, hoping to achieve the same contribution in reshaping that country and instilling Communisim. That didn't work, but the bullet that hit him did.



captaincleanoff said:


> ...thats because K+Ks are shit!



Has it been 6 months already?  :lol: 



MaestroMatt said:


> ...
> 
> Everyone has to start somewhere - I will never be ashamed of buying a k+k if it means I can develop my skills in the brewing process. Better to waste a kit than a grain bill.
> 
> ...



+1. Absolutely.

Cheers,
Ant.


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## jimbo82 (12/12/08)

I have to say that K+K is the only way you can introduce someone into homebrewing. If you start talking about AG, pH and mash schedules their eyes glaze over. But when mates drink my standard Coopers Pale Kit + BE2 and I tell em they make it themselves in half an hour, two cartons worth for $18 their eyes light up. I think we need to encourage the K+Kers to use filtered water, good cleaners and sanitisers (I really like the brewshield cleaner and no-rinse sanitisers) and try and keep them under 25 degrees in the spare room (not in the bloody shed!). If you can get someone to put that amount of effort in, the next step is definitely grain bills and hops. You have to walk before you can run, goodness knows I did. After a few K+K's perfecting temperature and finding the right cleaners and sanitisers, the next step was AG to get a better reult. And it didn't cost much to go BIAB as I already had the fermenters, kegs and tools from K+K.

My only complaint is that the store I buy my cleaning gear from has nothing for AG and is a total rip off for kegging gear, but at least I get to support the little guys for that stuff!!! If I owned a store I would DEFINITELY be running a once a month BIAB demo so that people can see how easy it is. Jeez I wished I owned a HBS...


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## quantocks (12/12/08)

jimbo82 said:


> Jeez I wished I owned a HBS...




I'm fairly sure they don't make much money from people buying bulk sacks of grain but rather the booster kits, replica beers, etc. I'm quite happy with my Coopers Pale Ale, it says on the can "We got our brewers to make a *similar styled* beer" so I don't see how they are lying sacks of poo as has been mentioned.


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## Katherine (12/12/08)

I think it's called marketing....


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## Pollux (12/12/08)

But Katie, marketing is ALWAYS truthful isn't it???


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## jimbo82 (12/12/08)

I wouldn't own a HBS shop for the money  Just for the fun of it. And then I would queue up at Centrelink


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## bradsbrew (12/12/08)

Nothing like starting a big shit fight then sitting back and watching the carnage hey Pumpy :beer: 
Cheers Brad


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## flattop (12/12/08)

I think we need to make the determination between the fairdinkum LHBS guy, the Hydroponic guy and the big guys that market the fake flavor kits.
I find the LHBS guys (i use 2) to be really helpful, they don't sell hydroponics, they keep hops and yeast in the fridge and they are not afraid of discussing methods.
I don't see anything wrong with clone kits IF they are pretty close to the flavor they advertise. If you buy a wheat kit you want it to taste like wheat.
BUT, if you buy a VB kit (pity on you) then with minimal instructions or effort it should taste like the product (average) or in fact it is false advertising.
That said, I guess though that you have to be reasonable and expect that your $100 setup will not EXACTLY match the output of a commercial setup worth millions.

Lets not kick the little guy who buys product to stock shelves to offer us a variety we otherwise may not have, selling a few extra cans of goop a week means he can afford to stock grains and hops and yeast that may sit around waiting a little longer. 
Otherwise service stations would only sell soft drinks, condoms, mars bars and dodgy CD's because they make stuff all profit from fuel.


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## staggalee (12/12/08)

bradsbrew said:


> Nothing like starting a big shit fight then sitting back and watching the carnage hey Pumpy :beer:
> Cheers Brad









stagga.


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## fergi (12/12/08)

really this always annoys the shit out of me, AG/ V KnK AGAIN, it always turns into a shit fight, and it is always some little wanker who pops his head out of his own butt to make some smart arse comment while hiding behind his computer keyboard, ive said it on here b4 and i will say it again,i,ve had many crappy knk beers, and just as many crappy all grain, if you have never made a descent knk beer then you are probably one of the people sitting home drinking your AG beer, which in all probability is just as crappy as your kits beers that you could never make properly, because you really havent got a clue how to make a descent beer anyway, "SO MANY ARSEHOLES SO FEW BULLETS, this is not directed at all the great AGers on this site who give us kit brewers excellent help.

fergi


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## jayandcath (13/12/08)

I really think that a lot of people have missed the point. I don't think this thread was saying that all LHBS are shit/useless, but everybody's got a story of getting the completely wrong or misleading information. I came across this site and have learned a great deal in the last six months, and not all LHBS are shockers, but some of the stuff they say is just crap. I once got told that All-Grain is "Underground" WTF is that about. 
And then you go into a LHBS and ask for grains or liquid yeast, and its right down the back covered in cobwebs and the guy says that no-one wants the stuff, waste of money that was and I won't be buying it again, but there are no ******* signs up to say that its available, so its the consumers fault.

Nice thread Pumpy, should have put the flame suit on earier.

Jay


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## matti (13/12/08)

jayandcath said:


> I really think that a lot of people have missed the point. I don't think this thread was saying that all LHBS are shit/useless, but everybody's got a story of getting the completely wrong or misleading information. I came across this site and have learned a great deal in the last six months, and not all LHBS are shockers, but some of the stuff they say is just crap. I once got told that All-Grain is "Underground" WTF is that about.
> And then you go into a LHBS and ask for grains or liquid yeast, and its right down the back covered in cobwebs and the guy says that no-one wants the stuff, waste of money that was and I won't be buying it again, but there are no ******* signs up to say that its available, so its the consumers fault.
> 
> Nice thread Pumpy, should have put the flame suit on earier.
> ...



Hehehe

I think shopkeepers are entitled to opinions even though they might not agree with you.
First time I walked into the homebrew shop in Campelltown SW sydney Nsw that has now closed down. 
(Probably didn't make enough money....)

I was met by this German fellow Shop keeper who thought that AG was a waste of time and reckoned he could brew equally pallatable beers just using Liquid malt. I don't doubt him as I reckon I can too. But it is not as fun.
After a few visits getting some basics and ordering Liquid yeasts and hops, I found that he was an descent chap but his knowledge of the larger brewing community in Australia was next to nothing.

Also I found that when I corrected him regarding brewing teqniques and quoted John Palmer and Gregory Noonan he wan't too sure who these guys were.

One thing that really was annoying to me about this particular brewshop keeper was that he wasn't aware of what products was out there.
His main supplier was Brewcraft... say no more.

*
To the real issue here is the false marketing in conning new brewers to think that if you buy a Can of goo and add a kilo of sugar with the kit yeast you will get a Corona Cerveza or a Toohey New clone if you just follow the instruction.... *

Point taken Pumpy and Jayandcath


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## blackbock (13/12/08)

As most of us here would know, making good homebrewed beer is not about having 200 different cans of goo on the shelf, rather it's about having the freshest possible ingredients, quality yeast and good sanitation and fermentation control. 

However the masses out there don't care about the process, they want to be told that if they mix Part A with Part B they will have Pure Blonde in their fermenters! Also, they might think that brewing advice printed on a glossy coloured recipe pamphlet is more valid than what some experienced brewer tells them.


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## staggalee (13/12/08)

fergi said:


> really this always annoys the shit out of me, AG/ V KnK AGAIN, it always turns into a shit fight,
> 
> fergi



Yes, it does. I`ve always found it`s not a good idea to post what annoys the shit out of me, because without exception, people post more stuff about it to annoy the shit out of me more.
Better to ignore the thread, or take it with a grain of salt {so to speak}
I really don`t think Pumpy was serious with the original post in the thread anyway.  

stagga.


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## Jase71 (13/12/08)

fergi said:


> really this always annoys the shit out of me, AG/ V KnK AGAIN, it always turns into a shit fight, and it is always some little wanker who pops his head out of his own butt to make some smart arse comment while hiding behind his computer keyboard, ive said it on here b4 and i will say it again,i,ve had many crappy knk beers, and just as many crappy all grain, if you have never made a descent knk beer then you are probably one of the people sitting home drinking your AG beer, which in all probability is just as crappy as your kits beers that you could never make properly, because you really havent got a clue how to make a descent beer anyway, "SO MANY ARSEHOLES SO FEW BULLETS, this is not directed at all the great AGers on this site who give us kit brewers excellent help.
> 
> fergi



Hey Fergi, I agree with your coments _to a point_, but in this instance no-one is actually bagging out K & K'ers, and the original post is more aimed at flogging off kits with the claim of replicating the commercials (which I personally think is a bit of a rich marketing statement myself - so many conditional variations in the homebrewers hands to factor in). If anything, this is quite a positive thread, with many aspiring comments from Kitters and Ag'ers alike - as follows: 



Thirsty Boy said:


> I remember being a new kit brewer - those beers were in retrospect fairly bloody average, but they got better as I got experience, and if I had researched and learned the amount of things I have learned since I embarked upon AG brewing - I suspect that I could have made a very nice kit beer indeed (one of these days I am going to try, just to see if its true)





Rob2 said:


> Good quality kits with flavour. The country brewer has kits with real hops in them, which minus the yeast are good





MaestroMatt said:


> Everyone has to start somewhere - I will never be ashamed of buying a k+k if it means I can develop my skills in the brewing process. Better to waste a kit than a grain bill.





Swinging Beef said:


> I think there are some mighty fine K&K kits about.


 
and: 



captaincleanoff said:


> :lol: :lol: thats because K+Ks are shit!


Well, OK, you can shoot captaincleanoff if you're feeling trigger happy this weekend. Then we can go over to his place and pluner the estate of all his brewing gear


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## Jase71 (13/12/08)

blackbock said:


> Pure Blonde in their fermenters!





staggalee said:


> a grain of salt



Note to self: AG is made from pubic hair & saline.


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## Offline (13/12/08)

One thing that you would have to take in to account with these clone kit beers, is the wide range of the brewers experience and equipment used to make them. 

Maybe one of these clone kits brewed at 29+ degrees does taste like (insert beer name here)?

But if the brewer is happy with the final product then I dont see the problem. 
And if it gets the brewer in to the LHBS chatting with the owner it can only improve their brewing and the owners business, can only comment on our LHBS and owner though and he has already posted his views on this thread. onya MHB.


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## fergi (13/12/08)

and: 


Well, OK, you can shoot captaincleanoff if you're feeling trigger happy this weekend. Then we can go over to his place and pluner the estate of all his brewing gear 
[/quote]


yes you are correct jase maybe i had a shitty day at work dealing with all the no brainers that come into butcher shops at this time of year and was feeling slightly iritated by the end of the day,but captainjerkoff is the sort of person i was refering to, we dont need comments from dickheads like that,wasnt really having a go at pumpy either just the fallout from his original post.most people are brewers and use this site for that purpose but then there are the snipers who have nothing positive or helpful to say in their posts.


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## Steve (13/12/08)

Katie said:


> I can't believe this thread... you guys that bored....




+1

I read this thread after visting my LHBS this morning. He told me about it. I agree with him and Katie. Stop farking whinging. If you dont like or get the service from your LHBS go somewhere else. In my case and I suspect a lot of other people if it wasnt for your LHBS you would still be paying $40 for a case of melbourne (not that theres anything wrong with a cold tinny of Melbourne). Give em a break eh.
Cheers
Steve


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## Jase71 (13/12/08)

FFS Katie & Steve, this is a forum. Let people voice an opinion however disagreeable it may be to you.


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## Steve (13/12/08)

Jase71 said:


> FFS Katie & Steve, this is a forum. Let people voice an opinion however disagreeable it may be to you.



Couldnt agree more hence the reason for voicing mine.
Cheers
Steve


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## Jase71 (13/12/08)

LOL, can't argue with that statement  

Have a great weekend mate.


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## Swinging Beef (13/12/08)

jimbo82 said:


> If I owned a store I would DEFINITELY be running a once a month BIAB demo so that people can see how easy it is. Jeez I wished I owned a HBS...


Pat up at Springwood and St MArys does that.
Top bloke.. loves the art, loves the beer.
My only regret about moving out of the blue mountains


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## warra48 (13/12/08)

Oooohhh yeah, Pumpy, you've done it again. Started a thread with lots of strong reactions!

Don't blame the HB shops, they're trying to make a buck, and shift stock, even though some of them are not quite up to speed on the technical issues of brewing.

If the public is gullible enough to think they can spend the equivalent money which would buy a 12 year old clapped out Commodore, and expect to drive away in a brand new BMW 7 series, and they enjoy the experience, who are we to argue?

Same with homebrew.

If you want to drink quality homebrewed beer, you need to spend a few dollars, learn some theory and basic skills, and go from there. Most likely you need to invest in AG brew gear and brew that way.

I've got a golfing mate who brews K&K. I've often told him how he could take some simple steps to make it better, but he just doesn't want to know. He likes picking up $7 or $8 cans at the supermarket and taking no more than about 30 minutes to get a brew down. He's happy with that, although he has started to complain about some odd flavours recently, no doubt due to the rising summer temperatures leading to hot fermentations. I told him to control his fermentation temperatures, and I think he's OK with that now.

I've given him a number of my AG brews, and he didn't enjoy them, as he doesn't like beers which "put hairs on your chest". Obviously the flavours of malt and hops are to much for him. He has a happy hour with 5 or 6 other fellow in his street every day, and I think he plows through at least 6 or 7 stubbies each time. He's happy, and it's cheap for him.

The K&K market supplies him exactly with what he wants, and I've no doubt there are many others like him, and that's exactly the market the K&K suppliers operate in. I wouldn't confuse the AG market with that, it's a different niche, filled by the likes of MHB and Ross.

Edit: Spelling (no, not Tory).


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## sinkas (13/12/08)

without coopers can of poo, i mean goo, this forum and hobby probably woudlnt exist.

and I am reliaBLY INORMED THAT POSTER ON pUPMP'Y DOOR WAS INFACT bERT nEWTON..


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## bradsbrew (13/12/08)

sinkas said:


> without coopers can of poo, i mean goo, this forum and hobby probably woudlnt exist.
> 
> and I am reliaBLY INORMED THAT POSTER ON pUPMP'Y DOOR WAS INFACT bERT nEWTON..


That caps lock button next to a iS A bItCh hEy sInKaS


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## Pollux (13/12/08)

Sinkas, do you own a Sony Viao laptop???

I do, and I always always hit that bloody caps key..


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## Jase71 (14/12/08)

Swinging Beef said:


> Pat up at Springwood and St MArys does that.
> Top bloke.. loves the art, loves the beer.



++++++1. I was referred to Pat (referred to from Dave @ Nth Sydney, ) and had a good old chat about the Amarillo situation. Bothe Dave & Pat are great guys, albeit 'opposition traders'


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## quantocks (14/12/08)

Daves pretty damn nice, his prices are at least $5 per item more expensive than usual though.


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## rodsolo (14/12/08)

I got into brewing about 5 years ago using Kits, bought from Grain and Grape and found both John and Chris very helpfull, in terms of advice and suggestions on adapting kits.Chris in particular suggested different additions - yeasts etc. Sure I tried clones to begin with but found I preferred to play around with things to make what I wanted with my limited resources. I found a hbs in Toodyay (500k's from me) where the guy knows what he's talkning about, yet the local Hbs 230 ks (Kalgoorlie) away know jack. So I guess what I'm saying is if you've got any real interest in brewing , find someone who cares about what he or she is selling. :chug:


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## Leigh (14/12/08)

I think the mods should renaim this thread to "the elitist biggots" thread  



Phillip said:


> Can the people that actually buy VB and New really tell the difference between them?
> 
> I am a DJ and have a very good understanding of mixing music. When I go out and listen to djs playing - they are shit - but know one knows.....because they aren't educated...they think it is good.



As Phillip suggests, I think we could go through and find something in every house of the posters in this thread and find something that they do on a day to day basis that is uneducated to the small minority that are educated in that field...

Can the average Joe tell the difference? Probably not...you should feel privilaged that you can!



Thirsty Boy said:


> So there is no reason that a knowledgeable brewer couldn't take a coopers pale ale kit, apply their knowledge and produce a fair facsimile of an actual Coopers Pale Ale. It might not be exactly the same - but then again its fairly likely that it would be just as close as I could get trying to make an AG clone of the same beer.



...and I've also got an issue with people supplying "exact" recipes for James Squire Amber or Golden Ale...I think at last count there were at least 20 of each on this forum claiming to be exact replicas! I don't think anybody can get an exact replica, but they can get close!



Boston said:


> Dont get angry.....Get AG'ing.....
> 100's of people can't be wrong.



Exactly, if 100's can't be wrong AG-ing then it is only logical that 1000's can't be wrong K&King and 1,000,000's can't be wrong megaswilling :lol:   

These threads make me laugh on every forum...whether its Holden v Ford or whatever...try walking into a Holden dealer and telling them their product is shit compared to the Ford and I'm sure you'll get a similar reaction to Pumpy's first post LOL


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## staggalee (14/12/08)

Leigh said:


> I think the mods should renaim this thread to "the elitist biggots" thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Whatever, I`m thinking of hiring Phil for our next celebration. 
He`s good. {he even said so} and those other dj`s are shit {he even said that too}
As long as his hourly rate isn`t TOTT that is.

stagga


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## petesbrew (17/12/08)

As found on the TCB recipe page,
Note: These recipes do not duplicate the nominated brand but give you a starting point for experimentation.

Seriously, you know they're not going to taste the same, but if you're motivated enough to redo a recipe to clone a VB, at least you're on the right track to becoming a better brewer aren't you? Rather than thinking "this tastes like shit", and shoving your homebrew kit in the back of the garage next to your unused abcurler, surfboard, guitar, etc...

Without Homebrew shops where would we get our grain from?

Pete. Still a kit lover.


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## cdbrown (17/12/08)

If it wasn't for kits I wouldn't be making my own beer. But thankfully (after creating volumes of high alc% cats piss) I found this site and discovered that what is written on the small instruction sheet under the lid of the coopers can is complete shit and followed the great guides and help dotted around. 

Kits have their place.


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## Bribie G (17/12/08)

cdbrown said:


> If it wasn't for kits I wouldn't be making my own beer. But thankfully (after creating volumes of high alc% cats piss) I found this site and discovered that what is written on the small instruction sheet under the lid of the coopers can is complete shit and followed the great guides and help dotted around.
> 
> Kits have their place.



+1, I don't think I've even read the instructions. I'm cleaning up my kits n bits and partial brews and drinking my way through them over the holidays to make way for the AG Yorkshire bitters but, as I'm drinking them I'm impressed at how little you really need to do to a kit to get a drinkable beer.

Currently in fridge is a Coopers toucan stout plus a kilo of dex and a kilo of LDME. Gives Bottled Guinness a run for its money. Also drinking a crystal clear Coopers lager plus be2 plus some tettnang I wanted to get rid of. Nottingham yeast, gelatine finings, polyclar. A nice crisp clear beer that would probably sell at the pub if they put it on tap. There's another forum member popping round this arv so I'll ply him with a couple this afternoon and he can back me up on these if he wants to. 

NO partials here, no special equipment required, just the knowledge (picked up mainly from this forum) of how to tweak a kit and make something 200% better than the plain old instructions would allow.

I think any 'blame' as to people making shyte home brew should be apportioned to the kit manufacturers rather than the LHBSs.


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## staggalee (17/12/08)

BribieG said:


> +1, I don't think I've even read the instructions. I'm cleaning up my kits n bits and partial brews and drinking my way through them over the holidays to make way for the AG Yorkshire bitters but, as I'm drinking them I'm impressed at how little you really need to do to a kit to get a drinkable beer.
> 
> Currently in fridge is a Coopers toucan stout plus a kilo of dex and a kilo of LDME. Gives Bottled Guinness a run for its money. Also drinking a crystal clear Coopers lager plus be2 plus some tettnang I wanted to get rid of. Nottingham yeast, gelatine finings, polyclar. A nice crisp clear beer that would probably sell at the pub if they put it on tap. There's another forum member popping round this arv so I'll ply him with a couple this afternoon and he can back me up on these if he wants to.
> 
> ...



That stout would have to be about 10% abv, wouldn`t it? 
What did it finish at and how much did you prime with?

stagga.


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## Bribie G (17/12/08)

staggalee said:


> That stout would have to be about 10% abv, wouldn`t it?
> What did it finish at and how much did you prime with?
> 
> stagga.



I made it back in August in my pre hydrometer days  so don't have that info. From Butters attenuation spreadsheet at the time I estimated about 1080 og, and probably fermented out fairly low as there wasn't a mini mash involved and nearly all fermentable goop and sugars. Also I used Nottingham (the rottweiler of yeasts) so it would have chewed through all the available fermentables.

I would guess it's about 8 percent. As usual I primed each 2 L PET with 3 CSR sugar cubes.


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## boingk (17/12/08)

petesbrew said:


> Pete. Still a kit lover.



Rock on, ditto here, and I'm on my 37th brew and 2nd year of brewing. I can't see giving away kits anytime soon.




cdbrown said:


> If it wasn't for kits I wouldn't be making my own beer. I found this site and discovered *snip* [good brewing practise].
> 
> Kits have their place.



Hell yeah - I thought it out and ponied up the majestic sum of $88 in March last year and was back home that afternoon with a Tooheys starter kit and 30 Coopers bottles. The beer was scum, but I knew it was beer and knew I could do better. A trip to the LHBS started it all revving along nicely, and here I am.



BribieG said:


> I'm impressed at how little you really need to do to a kit to get a drinkable beer.
> 
> *stout recipe*
> 
> ...



Smack, whizzz...KABOOM! Right on the money. Except for the partials...I always use a bit of grain now in my brews and I think the most I've used in one brew was 800g with three different grains. It definitely makes a difference and I only use a big pot I got from the $2 shop, filled with a bit of water and away I went. A smaller addition needs less water so a normal saucepan may suffice a lot of the time. Anyway, 'nough rambling from me on that point.

I think the blame shouldn't be pointed at the manufacturers...it should probably be at the public not questing for the info. I mean, if you don't want to know you dont ask, and don't find out right? Nothing gets served to us on a plate, and if it does you're more than likely paying for it in one way or another. Still, you're right, it doesn't help to have instructions along the line of 'Add contents of tin and 1kg sugar into fermenting vessel. Top with water to 23L. Add yeast. Consume.' 

Also your stout sounds good, I've got one I bottled in July thats coming along well; the brew with the 800g of grain. I used 500g Crystal, 200g Choc and 100g Black Patent grains in it and it sure does shake it around a bit. Massive overkill on the choc and patent grains, but I like it. Sort of like having a Yammie R1 when all you do is ride to the office. Might be overkill, sure, but its still enjoyable!  Have a shot at some grain sometime, its well worth it.

Cheers all - Keep those kits kranking along!


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## Bribie G (17/12/08)

boingk said:


> Also your stout sounds good, I've got one I bottled in July thats coming along well
> 
> Cheers all - Keep those kits kranking along!






:icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:


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## matho (17/12/08)

so it looks like i am very lucky to have pat at absolute homebrew as my LHBS 
i bought my homebrew kit from him and from the word go he has given good advice and encoraged me to try adding extra grains and hops. by the way his shop in the blue mountains is in faulconbridge and why would you want to leave the blue mountains when you can go to his shop on those sunday that he does demos, taste his great beer's and get a wealth of knowledge.

cheer's matho


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## datman510 (17/12/08)

i dont have anything to add but im sure i was the only person not to have added to this as yet...


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## captaincleanoff (16/3/09)

Jase71 said:


> Well, OK, you can shoot captaincleanoff if you're feeling trigger happy this weekend. Then we can go over to his place and pluner the estate of all his brewing gear



I know this thread is old.. but I only just read these comments towards me.

Have a whinge.

Pathetic you get so defensive and aggressive over a little comment.


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## chappo1970 (16/3/09)

Leigh said:


> I think the mods should renaim this thread to "the elitist biggots" thread



Good times, Good times!!



captaincleanoff said:


> Pathetic you get so defensive and aggressive over a little comment.



Well done captain! I loved watching this thread! :super:


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## petesbrew (16/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> I know this thread is old.. but I only just read these comments towards me.
> 
> Have a whinge.
> 
> Pathetic you get so defensive and aggressive over a little comment.


Well, you did insult our much beloved kits... of course we're gonna get fired up! :beer:


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## Adamt (16/3/09)

boingk said:


> Rock on, ditto here, and I'm on my 37th brew and 2nd year of brewing. I can't see giving away kits anytime soon.



*points to boingk's avatar* :icon_cheers:


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## King Brown (16/3/09)

My LHBS does have its own kits, but the proprietor is an AG brewer and the store has a bigger selection of grain than it does of kits. Always willing to give good advice as well. If you look there are good stores out there


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## Ronin (16/3/09)

Adamt said:


> *points to boingk's avatar* :icon_cheers:



I thought the same thing, wasn't long before he got the 'bug' :lol:


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## pdilley (17/3/09)

My LHBS's do K&K and OG Wort Cubes. They told me no one does and and its more trouble than its worth and Australians are lazy and prefer tins when I asked about the AG brewing I was familiar with from spending a bit of time working in the states.

I've tried my first tins for brewing but will still be a few weeks before taste proof. I'm already talking it down in my head so I don't be too disappointed. Hope to be surprised.


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## flattop (17/3/09)

The wort kits are great, i tried a Liquid Wort Kit a while back, still the best beer i didn't make 
I'm still waiting for my mate to sew up my BIAB bag before i can go AG....


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