# Morgan's Caramalt Amber Lme



## axertes (16/4/11)

So I wanted to step up to all malt extract and hops beer. There's a thread here where some people helped me develop a recipe for an Aussie-fied APA. 

The recipe called for:
3kg amber LME
1.5kg pale LME

for a 25L brew. According to BrewMate this should have an OG of 1.055 and a colour of 8.0 SRM.

So I go to my lhbs and he only has Morgan's LME. I see the 'Lager Pale' and the 'Caramalt Amber'. I'm a little confused about the 'caramalt' labelling and ask the guy if this is 'normal amber LME?'. He says yes. So I buy 2 'Caramalt Amber' and one 'Lager Pale'.

So... a mate and I started the brew today. Boiled those 3 cans, got the wort in the fermenter and... well. It's darker than Kilkenny and has an OG of 1082 (at 40 degrees, mind you, so more like 1078 really). So, I'm now brewing a f&*^%ing galaxy hopped pseudo-quadrupel. <_< 

So, is this Morgan's 'Caramalt Amber' some super-duper malty-malt, and my LHBS guy is a douchecopter? Or have I made some mistake? Happy to post any more details from brewmate or my methods if required.

Thanks in advance folks.


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## manticle (16/4/11)

Did you discard the first sample and take a second to confirm the reading? Could be malt stuck in the tap (without running specs through a spreadsheet). If the yeast hasn't been in long, I would take another reading.

What's the full recipe?

I would expect 2:1 ratio of amber: pale extract to have a fair bit of colour.


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## MHB (16/4/11)

Unless you give the volume you made the wort up to and any losses in your process there is no way of telling what the OG is going to be. If we assume you made it up to 23 L and all the LME went into the fermenter your OG would be 1.063 and the colour would be about 50 EBC, you can think of those as Maximum values for these ingredients in a 23 L brew.

There are several different "Amber Malt Extracts" available, had you chosen the Blackrock Amber your colour would have been (same provisions as previous) ~40 EBC, for the Briess Sparkling Amber ~ 48 EBC. Way over the ~16 EBC you were looking for, 

Following the link back to the recipe, there is clearly something wrong with the Colour assumptions, either a very wrong value is in for the amber malt or something is set up wrong in BrewMate.

MHB



douchecopter indeed


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## Punkal (17/4/11)

Hmmm, It sounds like the Caramalt Amber you got was a lot darker and probably had a higher concentration of sugar in it. It still sounds like it will turn out ok just not what you were after...


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## axertes (17/4/11)

MHB said:


> Unless you give the volume you made the wort up to and any losses in your process there is no way of telling what the OG is going to be. If we assume you made it up to 23 L and all the LME went into the fermenter your OG would be 1.063 and the colour would be about 50 EBC, you can think of those as Maximum values for these ingredients in a 23 L brew.


25 litres. What do you mean by 'any losses in your process'? A little bit of malt got 'toffeed' at the bottom of the pot. About 3.5L of water got boiled off, but we added that back into the fermenter in the way of more boiled water. (Disclaimer: this is the first time I've done a 60 min boil. Didn't think 3.5L would be vapourised!).



MHB said:


> There are several different "Amber Malt Extracts" available, had you chosen the Blackrock Amber your colour would have been (same provisions as previous) ~40 EBC, for the Briess Sparkling Amber ~ 48 EBC. Way over the ~16 EBC you were looking for,


Can you give some examples of the kind of amber malts and their values compared to those BrewMate provides? It says Amber LME is: Potential extract = 1.036, Colour = 9. I don't know what these values mean.



MHB said:


> Following the link back to the recipe, there is clearly something wrong with the Colour assumptions, either a very wrong value is in for the amber malt or something is set up wrong in BrewMate.


Well, Brewmate's pretty well on 'default'. I'm guessing the former.



MHB said:


> douchecopter indeed


Well now I'm not quite so sure. I mean, if the Blackrock and the Briess would have produced similar colour... maybe BrewMate's definition of 'Amber LME' is a bit different to what you get here in Ausfailia, and I should have done more homework. What do you think?

The proper reciper for BrewMate users (in *.xml) is here. EDIT: you can attach files on this forum too! Get the BrewMate xml wherever pleases you: the attached one or the Mediafire upload.  

View attachment Punkal__s_Seppo_Ale.xml


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## axertes (17/4/11)

Punkal said:


> Hmmm, It sounds like the Caramalt Amber you got was a lot darker and probably had a higher concentration of sugar in it.


That's my best guess.



Punkal said:


> It still sounds like it will turn out ok just not what you were after...


I'm not sure. I mean... given my OG, I'm most likely looking at around the 9-10%ABV mark. With the crazy amount of maltiness, that makes it a bit like a Quadrupel, but hopped with Cascade and Galaxy. I've never brewed scrumpy that strong, let alone an ale.

Then again, I _could_ be onto something... :blink: Murray's Grand Cru is like an 'Aussie Belgian', and is one of my favourite beers :icon_drool2:


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## axertes (17/4/11)

manticle said:


> Did you discard the first sample and take a second to confirm the reading? Could be malt stuck in the tap (without running specs through a spreadsheet). If the yeast hasn't been in long, I would take another reading.


Yeah, tried again a few minutes ago. The OG's dropped by a few points, but it's now about 15 degrees cooler too...



manticle said:


> What's the full recipe?


If you use BrewMate you can DL the recipe in a previous post.



manticle said:


> I would expect 2:1 ratio of amber: pale extract to have a fair bit of colour.


Yeah... but... grrr! Again, is BrewMate being the problem here?

................................................................................
......................

Thank you guys so much. Me and my brewing partner were pretty bummed about this. Let's hope Punkal's right and it's awesome despite not being what we planned! :icon_chickcheers:


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## manticle (17/4/11)

In regards to the colour - there are different scales in use. The spreadsheet I use for recipe development has liquid amber listed at around 16 deg. Lovibond is approximately equal to half the same value in SRM or EBC.

The same spreadsheet also uses HCU which seems like a slightly awkward and inaccurate way to calculate the final beer colour based on the lovibond values of the ingredients divided by the final volume.

It could be your brewmate values are not set in the scale you want them to be.

No idea why you've hit 1080 - with just those ingredients (assuming the tins are 1.5kg each), made to 25 L, I get 1056. I don't think 1 tin of liquid malt extract is going to have 'more sugar' than another of the same weight. Usually liquid malts are 20% water and the rest barley malt (unless specified otherwise).

If you want a decent tasting brew at that gravity, you'll need a very healthy yeast pitch and you'll want to keep ferment temps low in the first few days.

I don't have brewmate so I can't download the recipe. Be a helpful chap/lass and post it for us would you?


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## axertes (17/4/11)

manticle said:


> In regards to the colour - there are different scales in use. The spreadsheet I use for recipe development has liquid amber listed at around 16 deg. Lovibond is approximately equal to half the same value in SRM or EBC.
> 
> The same spreadsheet also uses HCU which seems like a slightly awkward and inaccurate way to calculate the final beer colour based on the lovibond values of the ingredients divided by the final volume.
> 
> It could be your brewmate values are not set in the scale you want them to be.


Meh, I don't care nearly as much what colour it is. Now that some of the cloudy sediment has dropped it's a lovely red colour :icon_cheers:



manticle said:


> No idea why you've hit 1080 - with just those ingredients (assuming the tins are 1.5kg each), made to 25 L, I get 1056. I don't think 1 tin of liquid malt extract is going to have 'more sugar' than another of the same weight. Usually liquid malts are 20% water and the rest barley malt (unless specified otherwise).


Exactly my thoughts! Ok, well maybe my LHBS guy isn't such a twat after all. Or maybe he still is? We will get to the bottom of this!



manticle said:


> If you want a decent tasting brew at that gravity, you'll need a very healthy yeast pitch and you'll want to keep ferment temps low in the first few days.


Wyeast 1056. Comes from Craftbrewer, has lived in the (food) fridge at home for only a week, so I'm pretty confident it's healthy. I have a fermenting fridge with TempMate so temps aren't an issue. I was gonna pitch this morning at 19*c, should I go cooler?



manticle said:


> I don't have brewmate so I can't download the recipe. Be a helpful chap/lass and post it for us would you?


Alright, alright. I was trying to do it the lazy way 

*Punkal's Seppo Ale*
(Aussie-fied) American Pale Ale

*Recipe Specs*
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.014 
Colour (SRM / EBC): 8.0/15.8
Bitterness: 44.4IBU 
Alcohol by Volume: 5.3% 
Batch Size: 25L

*Fermentables*
_LME - Amber_
SRM: 9.0
Percentage: 66.67%
Amount: 3kg

_LME - Light_
SRM: 5.0
Percentage: 33.33%
Amount: 1.5kg

*Hops*
Cascade (Pellets, USA, AA6.8%): [email protected]
Galaxy (Pellets, Aus, AA13.4%): [email protected]
Cascade: [email protected]
Galaxy: [email protected]
Cascade: [email protected]
Galaxy: [email protected]


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## manticle (17/4/11)

Healthy yeast is one thing but you also need the right amount. If you have a second pack (is it the dried 1056 from craftbrewer?) I'd pitch both presuming your gravity readings are correct. You have calibrated your hydrometer to make sure it's reading correctly?

I'd pitch a bit lower - a couple of degrees lower than you aim to ferment.


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## MHB (17/4/11)

4.5 Kg of LME at ~80% Solids is 3.6 Kg

Dissolve 3.6 Kg in 25 L of water and you get 3.6/25 X 100 = 14.4 oP

From SG = (oP X 4)/1000 +1 = (14.4*4)/1000 + 1 = 1.0576 SG (or 1.0626 in 23 L)

There is no way to get any other answers; to read 1.082 or 1.078 corrected means you have made a mistake in your measurement.

Likewise for the colour, the ingredients you used make a beer much darker than your recipe indicates (~50 EBC) the colour value for Amber Malt should read more than 8 (wash my mouth out) SRM/Lo or 16 EBC. You get that from one 1.5 KG can, you added two and the colour from the light LME adds on as well.

Your home brew retailer sold you exactly what you asked for, so it's not his fault.

MHB


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## axertes (17/4/11)

manticle said:


> Healthy yeast is one thing but you also need the right amount. If you have a second pack (is it the dried 1056 from craftbrewer?) I'd pitch both presuming your gravity readings are correct. You have calibrated your hydrometer to make sure it's reading correctly?
> 
> I'd pitch a bit lower - a couple of degrees lower than you aim to ferment.



Checked the hydrometer in water. Bang on 1000.

Yeah the dried 1056 from Craftbrewer. So that's 12g each (x2=24g for two packets). I really want this much? Not doubting you, just checking. lol, another $4.25 worth of yeast. This is turning out to be an expensive screwup  

Ok, turned the tempmate down to 17*c (was intending to ferment at 18.5*c). Should be ready in a little bit (crappy old free fridge. Got a couple of inches of water in the floods up here so I'm watching carefully to make sure it doesnt burn the house down :unsure: ).


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## manticle (17/4/11)

I'm with MHB on this one though. I can't for the life of me see how your reading of 1080 can be accurate with those ingredients.

I'd pitch 2 packs into a 1080 brew but 1056 (my calculated OG, not the yeast) I'd use only the one.

I'll leave it to you.


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## axertes (17/4/11)

MHB said:


> 4.5 Kg of LME at ~80% Solids is 3.6 Kg
> 
> Dissolve 3.6 Kg in 25 L of water and you get 3.6/25 X 100 = 14.4 oP
> 
> From SG = (oP X 4)/1000 +1 = (14.4*4)/1000 + 1 = 1.0576 SG (or 1.0626 in 23 L)


This is a little bit over my head, but I trust your calculations!



MHB said:


> There is no way to get any other answers; to read 1.082 or 1.078 corrected means you have made a mistake in your measurement.


Just double-checked everything. It was indeed 4.5kg of LME (kept the labels for reference), and there's definitely 25L in my fermenter. I've measured the wort with the hydrometer 3 times now, and it reads the same each time (compensating for temp). Can you think of any other mistakes I could have made? 



MHB said:


> Likewise for the colour, the ingredients you used make a beer much darker than your recipe indicates (~50 EBC) the colour value for Amber Malt should read more than 8 (wash my mouth out) SRM/Lo or 16 EBC. You get that from one 1.5 KG can, you added two and the colour from the light LME adds on as well.


Fair enough. Didn't realise that SRM was a dirty word. I solemnly swear to only use only EBC from now on :unsure: .



MHB said:


> Your home brew retailer sold you exactly what you asked for, so it's not his fault.


Well that's good to know. It would be nice to blame someone else though haha.

Let's blame BrewMate instead! Well, maybe be a bit more constructive...

Any BrewMate users know how to go about getting the right values for the LMEs used? I can edit the 'potential extract' (whatever that means) and the colour. How do I find out those values for particular LMEs? 

Found this here:



> Master Blends: (1 KG Specialty Blends) (Now replaced by 1.5kg tins due to supply/cost problems with further 1kg containers)
> Beer Enhancer (2-row Pale extract, Glucose, and Honey; 1.2 EBC)
> Lager Malt (100% 2-row Lager malt; 2.4 EBC)
> Caramalt (60% Caramalt and 40% Pale malt; 12 EBC)
> ...



So according to that the 'Caramalt Amber' is 12EBC, Brewmate's Calculating it at 17.7%EBC; and 'Lager Pale' is 2.4EBC, BrewMate's calculating it at 9.9EBC. So there shoul dbe _less_ colour than Brewmate's calculating <_< 

I'm confused.


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## axertes (17/4/11)

I'm ringing my brew partner, I'll get his hydrometer. Might as well check all possible mistakes, huh?

EDIT: just rang him. Going over there to get his hydrometer. I'll ride my bicycle to burn off some of the copious amounts of Coopers I drank last night, or the copious amounts of Kilkenny I plan to drink this afternoon at the pub! . Back in half an hour to 45 mins folks!


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## axertes (17/4/11)

manticle said:


> I'm with MHB on this one though. I can't for the life of me see how your reading of 1080 can be accurate with those ingredients.


I KNOW!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!



manticle said:


> I'd pitch 2 packs into a 1080 brew but 1056 (my calculated OG, not the yeast) I'd use only the one.
> 
> I'll leave it to you.


Gotcha, makes sense now. Will do.


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## felten (17/4/11)

Your hydro should read 1.000 in tap water if it's accurate


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## axertes (17/4/11)

felten said:


> Your hydro should read 1.000 in tap water if it's accurate


Yeah it does. Grabbed my mate's hydrometer. Same reading.

The mystery continues...

EDIT: I guess I'm pitching two packets of yeast and brewing my 'pseudo-quadrupel' then.

I'd still like to solve the problem though.


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## RdeVjun (17/4/11)

Probably a long shot here, but what are you using to determine the 25L, the fermenter graduations? If so, never trust them...


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## goomboogo (17/4/11)

I agree with the gravity estimates put forward by the Brewmate software, MHB and Manticle.

Looking at the recipe and the contents of the Amber extract in the quote you have from the manufacturer, I think there may be issues with the beer other than the starting gravity. The 12 ebc extract lists the ingredients as 60% Caramalt and 40% Pale Malt. So that means, of the 4.5 kg of extract, 1.8 kg is Caramalt (i.e 60% of the 3 kg of Amber extract). This equates to 40% of your malt being Caramalt. That is a large proportion of crystal malt to have in a beer. Brewmate's estimate of 1014 on the finishing gravity is probably based on an Amber extract with a composition different to the one you've got. If you're extract really is made with 60% Caramalt then don't expect to get a finishing gravity as low as 1014.

Did you tell your LHBS guy what you were intending to do with the 3 kg of this particular Amber extract? With respect to the beer being darker than anticipated, did you check the best before date on the tins? Liquid extract does tend to darken as it ages.


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## axertes (17/4/11)

RdeVjun said:


> Probably a long shot here, but what are you using to determine the 25L, the fermenter graduations? If so, never trust them...


Yeah, but surely they'd only be inaccurate to +/- a litre or so, right?


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## axertes (17/4/11)

goomboogo said:


> I agree with the gravity estimates put forward by the Brewmate software, MHB and Manticle.
> 
> Looking at the recipe and the contents of the Amber extract in the quote you have from the manufacturer, I think there may be issues with the beer other than the starting gravity. The 12 ebc extract lists the ingredients as 60% Caramalt and 40% Pale Malt. So that means, of the 4.5 kg of extract, 1.8 kg is Caramalt (i.e 60% of the 3 kg of Amber extract). This equates to 40% of your malt being Caramalt. That is a large proportion of crystal malt to have in a beer. Brewmate's estimate of 1014 on the finishing gravity is probably based on an Amber extract with a composition different to the one you've got. If you're extract really is made with 60% Caramalt then don't expect to get a finishing gravity as low as 1014.
> 
> Did you tell your LHBS guy what you were intending to do with the 3 kg of this particular Amber extract? With respect to the beer being darker than anticipated, did you check the best before date on the tins? Liquid extract does tend to darken as it ages.


As I said, I was a bit confused about it being called 'Caramalt Amber' so I asked him if it was "normal amber LME" to which he replied "yes". If you are right, that means the LHBS guy was in fact wrong, kinda.

However, this still doesn't explain the gravity, so despite my frustrated acusations, he didn't sell me some sort of super-duper sugar-boosted malt. 

I'm trying to understand this Caramalt business. Wikipedia just told me, basically, that due to the roasting process some of the sugars in crystal malt become unfermentable. You just said that I shouldn't expect a FG of 1014.

So, is it possible that this LME is marketed by Morgan's to produce a sweet, malty, caramel-ly beer, but is blended in the right proportions that it will result in a lower FG, and therefore similar %ABV to a 'normal' can of LME, despite the OG?

If so, can anyone make even a rough estimate what my FG might be, given that my brew is about 40% Caramalt?


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## axertes (17/4/11)

STOP PRESS!

So, as it turns out, I never stirred the wort properly. Gravity is 1052.

I'm a ******* idiot. Case closed. I'm highly embarrassed.

Also, thank you everyone who helped me be a ******* idiot (i.e. tried to solve my nonexistent problem).

*makes a new username on AHB*

PS: I actually learnt some stuff from this. It wasn't entirely pointless.


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## manticle (18/4/11)

We've all been there.


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## RobboMC (18/4/11)

1) My brewing mentor says that a brew is never wasted; no matter how badly it goes or how poor it tastes, if you learn from it. So you have learned and that's great. I had one memorable dark ale that had a very low OG, I measure in the top of the fermenter, and all the malts were in the bottom and top was mostly water. Yes, I'd failed to stir it. Once bottled
you couldn't tell any differnt, so all should be well with this brew.

2) I have used caramalt almost exclusively for some years now. Unfortunately that link to the Morgans page is out of date, they no longer make all those nice 1kg cans of dark crystal. In the past they made 2 ranges of malt; plain old coloured malts in Light, Amber and Dark, and the superb master blends range Lagermalt, Caramalt, Dark Crystal, Chocolate and Roasted Black. They have basically dropped their old range of flavourless range and now make 3 malts in the 1.5 kg cans, Lagermalt, Caramalt and Black Roasted. I guess they expect these good quality malts to take the market places previosly held by Light, Amber and Dark. Dark Crystal and Chocolate are now sadly unavailable; and it makes it harder to make a caramel free coloured beer.

So I would call Caramalt an equivelent product that has superceded the Morgans Amber. Yes, it is an amber malt; and your LHBS man has not put you on a bad path, in fact it's a good path IMHO. It will make superior beer to the old Amber - all other things being equal. One of my favourite 'K&K' brews is a can of Caramalt and a can or Muntons Yorkshire Bitter. Two cans, nothing else ( but yeast and water of course ) a real easy beginner level brew and it's a beauty. Make it to 19 litres instead of 23 and it's even better.

There are many different types of amber malt. Caramalt is the lightest possible colour crystal malt and carries a soft Toffee Caramel flavour and aroma. Caramalt is ideal for the creation of Amber Ales and light beers, where you may desire a subtle caramel flavour. It contains 60% Caramalt grain and 40% Pale Barley malt grain. Colour added 1.5kg Master Blend in 23 litres 12 ebc.

I'm sure the beer will be excellent, I haven't ever had a bad batch when Caramalt was in the ingredients' but I love caramel in anything.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/4/11)

Glad I'm now AGing. The crystal extract made me some fantastic beers in my extract days.

Goomba


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