# Electric Element For Keg Conversion



## thesunsettree (27/2/10)

hi all,
i have been brewing for a few years now, mostly kits but i have recently moved to fresh worts. i am keen to start ag and i have decided, after much deliberation and research on systems and styles etc, to start with biag. i was initially going to use an urn but i would now like to convert a keg so i could do double batches. does anyone have any opinions/thoughts/words of wisdom etc on these http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2200W-Stainless-Ste...=item4a9e728eaf . 

thanks in advance
matt

p.s. i have been scouring these forums for the last few weeks and would like to congratulate all involved for a great resource that is extremely informative helpful and friendly


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## goatus (27/2/10)

I bought that exact element off the same ebay store a couple of weeks ago, i'm really happy with it.

Recently had a discussion about it and boil volumes vs surface area of your pot here:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...p;p=601184&

Good steady rolling boil on 28L of wort in a non-insulated bucket o' death for me. Depending on your insulation and surface area for heat to escape it will do double batches no probs.


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## thesunsettree (27/2/10)

great, thanks very much

matt


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## pb unleaded (27/2/10)

...or you can buy a cheap kettle (or two) and do it this way:


View attachment 36005


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## goatus (27/2/10)

I did consider this, but I was pretty happy to pay $50 for something that is much less likely to eletricute me =)

Comes with everything to make a weldless addition to your pot too. Although I have found that bunnings dont have any hole saws for less than $50 that will cut through my SS pot. Which is why I am still in my bucket


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## thesunsettree (3/3/10)

goatus said:


> I did consider this, but I was pretty happy to pay $50 for something that is much less likely to eletricute me =)
> 
> Comes with everything to make a weldless addition to your pot too. Although I have found that bunnings dont have any hole saws for less than $50 that will cut through my SS pot. Which is why I am still in my bucket



hi goatus,

how do u control the temps, just switch on and off as required or do u have a wired temp controller?

cheers matt


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## Spoonta (3/3/10)

I am useing the elements out of hot water systens


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## ~MikE (3/3/10)

goatus said:


> I did consider this, but I was pretty happy to pay $50 for something that is much less likely to eletricute me =)
> 
> Comes with everything to make a weldless addition to your pot too. Although I have found that bunnings dont have any hole saws for less than $50 that will cut through my SS pot. Which is why I am still in my bucket



i picked up a 30mm hole saw from bunnings, which is suitable for a 1" BSP socket, for i think ~$30-$35. chewed through the keggle fine.

already had the arborer attachment from when i got the 20mm hole saw for 1/2" BSP sockets


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## chappo1970 (3/3/10)

Matt,

I have been researching and developing elements especially for the purpose of brewing over the last few months. I share a few things I have found out.

There are elements and there are elements. Now I know there will some on here that are going to cry... but tuff titties. I have put hours upon hours researching for something safe, reliable and cost effective.

For starters. Now while some here will avocate the use of "borrowed" electic kettle elements (ranging in wattage) there is one very big problem with them. The element coating will corrode in wort conditions aka alkalines. They are designed to purely boil water and not built to withstand the attack of wort. Whilst they may appear to do the job, the heavy elements that they are coated in will corrode and will end up in your beer and eventually in your body. They are also built to heat up small volumes of water not large volumes that the brewer will be subjecting them too. This will also damage the element and aid in it's breakdown. Remember the average jug is only about 1.8lts the average HLT is about 40lts. That's 22 times more than it's capacity. They maybe cheap but they come at a price. If you are told differently then I suggest you do your own reseach into the facts. I'll be happy to point you in the right direction.

Immersion elements like this one here are great for the job.





But again you need to make sure that they are for your intended purpose. If they are to boil water all good, if they are to boil your wort then ask your supplier or manufacturer for the best solution. However their service life in alkaline conditions are shortened as even Incaloy will break down. See here http://www.stokesap.com.au/downloads/Stoke...l_%20Sect_K.pdf refer to page 6 onward for BSP fitting elements and purposes. BSP fitted elements have the added advantage of being weldless as all you need is cut a neat hole and an appropriately sized nut on the otherside. Prices start at $100 upwards

Then you have the Rolls Royce a fully shealthed ceramic bobbin element. 





The benefit of these babies is that the element never touches the wort or water and the sheath can be made from stainless steel making it completely 100% food grade. Also can be BSP fitted. These elements will out last the average brewer. Prices of these start at around $130 plus sheath.

Now I have tested both of these types of elements suggested above in several different formats and wattages. And it comes down to the purpose you want to apply it to. 

I notice you are in Brissy and if you wish to see for yourself PM and I'll arrange to have you over at Chappo Manor for a look see.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## gregs (3/3/10)

Some good info there Chappo Ive always thought about going full electric for convenience reasons and I recently upgraded to a 110 litre kettle, although as yet not used. Just wondering on bobbin size element for 60 litre batches if thats possible -re 240 volt 15 amps. I will have to research this further.

Cheers.


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## thesunsettree (3/3/10)

Chappo said:


> Matt,
> 
> I have been researching and developing elements especially for the purpose of brewing over the last few months. I share a few things I have found out.
> 
> ...




thanks for the info chappo. i shall take u up on the offer in the near future, got a few thing s to take care of over the next few weekends but thats a very kind offer to good to refuse.

many thanks
matt


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## chappo1970 (3/3/10)

gregs said:


> Some good info there Chappo I've always thought about going full electric for convenience reasons and I recently upgraded to a 110 litre kettle, although as yet not used. Just wondering on bobbin size element for 60 litre batches if that's possible -re 240 volt 15 amps. I will have to research this further.
> 
> Cheers.



Yeah I have been doing the same thing Gregs. Basically there are two considerations you need take up wattage and physical size of the element in its sheath. For a 60lt kettle I would think bigger is better. Two reasons I say this, one by the time you get to the boil you really have little in the brewery drawing power like march pumps, HLT's etc and secondly you want to get up on the boil and maintain a decent boil ASAP. Now 10amp circuit with a PID, Pump and 1800W element is nearly at the limit for a 10amp circuit IIRC. Anyway happy to discuss mate if you want to drop me a PM,



thesunsettree said:


> thanks for the info chappo. i shall take u up on the offer in the near future, got a few thing s to take care of over the next few weekends but thats a very kind offer to good to refuse.
> 
> many thanks
> matt



No worries at all Matt.


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## /// (3/3/10)

I have learnt alot about elements thanks to our supplier, Istra (02) 95252935).

Our little-un is on the larger size, 38kw, and is meant for heating 1400l of water. The one whoopsie I made was not having an thermocouple to feed back to the circuitry for heat control when we had it made. We only need for it to purr along to 85c and then we are sweet, but the guys sure fixed that.

But, using an over-the-side 2.4kw for years in legal and non-legal kegs, I dunno if you need anything else. Saves all that fuss and bother with cutting holes and stuff. 

The composition of the element is important. Some will scorch the wort, some degrade over the time. Best just to ask the supplier when you buy it.

Scotty


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## chappo1970 (3/3/10)

/// said:


> The composition of the element is important. Some will scorch the wort, some degrade over the time. *Best just to ask the supplier when you buy it.
> *
> Scotty




Best advice given this year Scotty! Thanks.


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## /// (3/3/10)

Chappo said:


> Best advice given this year Scotty! Thanks.



Chap-Chap, you made me Italics in the quote, how do you do that good man?! 

:icon_offtopic: Enjoying the Chap Chap and Beer and Bogan fest thread, next year I reckon me and the swag are a comin'!

Scotty


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## chappo1970 (3/3/10)

/// said:


> Chap-Chap, you made me Italics in the quote, how do you do that good man?!
> 
> :icon_offtopic: Enjoying the Chap Chap and Beer and Bogan fest thread, next year I reckon me and the swag are a comin'!
> 
> Scotty



It's a secret! Highlight what you want and hold down the ctrl and then press b, u and i. 

:icon_offtopic: That would be great if you can next year Scotty :icon_chickcheers: . I would really look forward to that one. Maybe drag that FatzG fella up with ya?


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## Thirsty Boy (3/3/10)

I completely agree with asking the supplier - but....

Chappo talks about how various elements perform in alkaline solutions like wort - and unless I am very much mistaken, wort is an _acidic_ solution with a pH in the order of 5.0 (give or take a few points) - Could just be a typo, could be an error, could be I'm wrong.

I have noticed however that the cheapy kettle element I use in my RIMS - 
*a]* doesn't degrade visibly due to contact with wort, but 
*b]* most certainly _does_ degrade when in contact with alkaline solutions. PBW did perceptable damage to the coating, which I ignored once, then when it did more the next time, I decided to head it off... a long soak in strong caustic and a good scrub with a stainless scourer, repeat... and now there really isn't all that much silver left to degrade anymore. 

Now, I ain't suggesting this is a right and proper solution to the issue - it certainly isn't as good as buying a better element in the first place - but its what I have settled for and I thought I'd just share my observations.

TB


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## chappo1970 (3/3/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Chappo talks about how various elements perform in alkaline solutions like wort - and unless I am very much mistaken, wort is an _acidic_ solution with a pH in the order of 5.0 (give or take a few points) - Could just be a typo, could be an error, could be I'm wrong.




My bad there TB. You are right. 

To clarify. Industrial elements are made for various and numerous applications like heating cleaning chemicals, water, bitumen, oils, petrolium etc etc. So basically there are elements with the right protective coating for most applications. I'll refer back to some of the manuals and literature I have to get the exact spec for brewing. 

However like I previously said the stainless sheathed bobbin element is the ultimate as far as heating elements go. You can PBW them, caustic and or basically whatever turns your wheels and you will not degrade them at all as the SS sheath will protect it. The downside is that they have a very large thermal mass and can scorch your wort if not controlled properly. So like everything brewing there are upsides and downsides to nearly every solution.

I used to use an el cheapo kitchen kettle type element, like others, in my HERMS and probably would still do so as it was purely in a water bath. However if it was in my kettle and in direct contact with the wort I wouldn't do it. Maybe nothing will ever happen but there is some pretty strong arguements to the contray. I'm not knocking anyone who does but again if it was me I would shell out the $100 odd for peace of mind.

Chap Chap


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## Thirsty Boy (3/3/10)

Chappo said:


> My bad there TB. You are right.
> 
> To clarify. Industrial elements are made for various and numerous applications like heating cleaning chemicals, water, bitumen, oils, petrolium etc etc. So basically there are elements with the right protective coating for most applications. I'll refer back to some of the manuals and literature I have to get the exact spec for brewing.
> 
> ...




All fair enough - and it seems that someone is selling reasonably priced 2200W stainless sheathed elements out there anyway - another recent "electric kettle" thread has been talking about them. They look good to me and at I think about $50 ... it goes a long way to removing cheapness as a reason to use a less suitable element.

I would be interested in seeing some of manuals/literature you have been using if the links are easy to post.

Cheers

TB


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## muckanic (10/3/10)

The majority of unsheathed elements on the market (both kettle and hot water service) are nickel plated copper. The plating is corroded by either alkaline or acidic conditions, and heat speeds up the process. So most brew elements will eventually look red rather than silver. Some distillers deliberately dissolve the plating in strong acid before use, but I think this is one of those things where a sense of proportion is required. First, most of the common brew taps are also nickel plated brass. Second, nickel doesn't really count as a toxic heavy metal, at least in moderate quantities. (Cheap stainless steel probably also gives off some nickel and chrome, and who said copper is significantly better?). Third, nickel salts aren't particularly soluble, so most would wind up in the boiler sediment. Fourth, live yeast tends to bind and precipitate many heavier metal ions.

One big drawback with kettle elements is their power density. More surface area for the same wattage is good, because it reduces scorch potential, and probably corrosion. My experience is that most kettle elements will eventually scorch wort, and this seems to happen as they get older for some reason.

BTW, 15A power points exist, and most power circuits are fused at 15-20A. I stress that is purely information, not recommendation ...


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