# SHould I buy a 100L Pilot Brewery From China?



## Doogs (23/8/17)

Hey guys, 

I'm in the process of setting up a small brewery in the rural outskirts of Sydney and would like to please ask for your learned advice. 

Before I go spending bazzilions of dollars on a full commercial kit, I'd like to start playing around with recipes in a small commercial "type" setup where I can build flavour consistency. 

I'm also hoping to make the equipment available to other brewers wanting to experiment, so it needs to be easy to use. 

After doing a fair bit of research I'm close to pushing the button on this option: 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzx-mOB00YcnaHhjN1gzUXdrSTg

What do you think?


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## Mardoo (23/8/17)

No doc came up on the iPhone app. Be VERY careful with buying from China. There is quality gear to be had, and there is total crap to be had. Do your research well. Ideally get the phone number of folks who've bought from a company and talk to them directly about their experience and the quality.


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## homebrewnewb (23/8/17)

man, i can see why that would be tempting.

The equipment is guaranteed for 5 years warranty for main tanks, and we supply
maintenance all life for free;

that though, is far too good to be true.
just noticed

The fermentation vessel, Top type, Doomed could be a bad sign.

i think you are going to have to contact purchasers in one or more of those countries and ask them first hand how their gear is going. it's the only way to be sure.


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## GalBrew (23/8/17)

Why not reach out to another brewery that has sourced gear from China that they are happy with? The guys from Black Hops are always happy to dish out some advice when asked. I'd contact them through their 'ambassadors' Facebook page.


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## bradsbrew (23/8/17)

Could almost buy a williamswarn for that sort of coin.


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## gunbrew (23/8/17)

Also talk with a local customs broker about total cost TO YOUR DOOR.
A Mate bought something large from over seas.
The seller was saying price was the total cost etc, and he payed.
Once item arrived at port botany he was getting calls from the local port folks saying pay about 4 different bills if you want the item.
Some tax, some port charges and delivery from the port to his door.
His sweet buy was soured.
Seller simply said total cost was for delivery to Australian port and the rest of the costs were his problem.
I don't have all the details but he was not happy.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/8/17)

If you're not in a hurry the China Brew Expo is on next year, October if I remember right in Shanghai, huge show and you may be able to pick up a bargain and stick it on a vessel in Shanghai Port.


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> man, i can see why that would be tempting.
> 
> The equipment is guaranteed for 5 years warranty for main tanks, and we supply
> maintenance all life for free;
> ...



Haha, I had a similar thought. 

Good idea about hitting up their previous customers. Will do


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

bradsbrew said:


> Could almost buy a williamswarn for that sort of coin.



I just checked them out. Talk about fancy! 

But it's not really what I'm going for if I'm honest. This is the first step in running a commercial brewery, so I'm not going to learn much about the process with a plug and play scenario like that.


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

gunbrew said:


> Also talk with a local customs broker about total cost TO YOUR DOOR.
> A Mate bought something large from over seas.
> The seller was saying price was the total cost etc, and he payed.
> Once item arrived at port botany he was getting calls from the local port folks saying pay about 4 different bills if you want the item.
> ...


Jeez, I hadn't even thought of that... 

Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely get to the bottom of what the actual cost is to get it to the door.


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## homebrewnewb (23/8/17)

@Mardoo kinda mentioned it first but yeah keep us posted. I am curious why the US and Canada would have had products shipped there they have such reputable stainless products there, why bring it in from China? 

Can also confirm about large items, even between state capital cities.


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you're not in a hurry the China Brew Expo is on next year, October if I remember right in Shanghai, huge show and you may be able to pick up a bargain and stick it on a vessel in Shanghai Port.



Wow, fantastic tip. Thank you! I'll definitely try and get along to that.

I can't wait that long for the pilot setup, however that looks like an amazing place to source the larger commercial equipment.


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## Lionman (23/8/17)

It seems decent value if its reasonable quality, but in reality isn't it just a 100L single vessel brewery with 2 temp controlled fermenters?

Lifting that basket is going to fun with 25+kg of spent grain in it. Must weight 50+kgs, need some sort of winch or pulley system.

The fermenters are pretty cool (and probably most of the cost), but I would have thought if you are looking to do pilot batches you would want to replicate the process on a smaller scale.

What size is the main brewhouse going to be? Is that going to be single vessel? If its a 2V or 3V system then wouldn't a 100L 2V or 3V system be better so you can more closely replicate the process? Possibly not a big issue.

What value does this system have over doing smaller batches in homebrew single vessel system?


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## Mardoo (23/8/17)

How much do you have to spend on the equipment, if I may ask?


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> @Mardoo kinda mentioned it first but yeah keep us posted. I am curious why the US and Canada would have had products shipped there they have such reputable stainless products there, why bring it in from China?
> 
> Can also confirm about large items, even between state capital cities.



I think it's essentially the cost of labour. 

As I've been pipe dreaming about this, I received some quotes from US and Canadian manufacturers DME and Newlands. For a 2,000ltr facility, it was between $500k and $750k USD... 

A similar set up from China is costs circa $150k


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## homebrewnewb (23/8/17)

Two Birds use DME, had a crack at them as to why they didn't buy Australian Stainless, but no bites. Still they don't brew it all there, some of it's contracted out to Hawkers. Depends how serious you are i guess. Still Moondog use the their old milk vat for a mash tun so... Again same story on with Hawkers also, if you wanted to scale up quickly it goes to someone who can do it i suppose.


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

Lionman said:


> It seems decent value if its reasonable quality, but in reality isn't it just a 100L single vessel brewery with 2 temp controlled fermenters?
> 
> Lifting that basket is going to fun with 25+kg of spent grain in it. Must weight 50+kgs, need some sort of winch or pulley system.
> 
> ...



Good point on the weight of the basket, but rigging up a winch won't be hard. I've got a decent sized shed to kit it out properly. Noted on the 2 or 3 vessel options as well... that strangely hadn't occurred to me. 

Originally I was looking at a 50L facility, but the cost to increase to 100L was only an extra $1800. So I figured I might as well give myself the option.


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## Doogs (23/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> How much do you have to spend on the equipment, if I may ask?


About $10k AUD


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## laxation (23/8/17)

Doogs said:


> Jeez, I hadn't even thought of that...
> 
> Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely get to the bottom of what the actual cost is to get it to the door.


FYI, regarding CIF - they will pay for everything to the Aus port. From there, it's on you.
If something goes wrong while it's on the boat, that's your bad luck. They pay for insurance, sure, but then you have to deal with the (maybe chinese) insurance company.
If you do buy it, make sure to check out what sort of insurance coverage you get - will need to watch out to see if it covers the things that usually go wrong during OS transit
I don't know how likely anything is to happen on the boat, but something to be aware of..

https://www.incotermsexplained.com/...eleven-rules-in-brief/cost-insurance-freight/


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## Coldspace (23/8/17)

Also check with Arctik, " Australian refrigeration council " on the process of importing something with refrigerant gas in it. You generally need to have a permit to import things into the country with refrigerant gasses in them. Depending on type of refrigerant and the intended use for it.
If this system requires one, then you may be able to get it sent minus the gas, and then a local refrigeration tech can recharge it here.
Best to call and check.


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## labels (23/8/17)

I would certainly get a broker to bring it in for you. A customs services agent sorts out things you have never even heard of leave alone know about. You can do some stuff yourself but you're limited. I am talking from experience - not bringing brewering equipment in but commercial printing machinery and a decent broker will save you time and one whopping headache. They do charge of course but you will still come ouit of it cheaper in the end run.


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## malt junkie (23/8/17)

I"d chat with Wayward in Sydney, they got their 40hl from china. Quality kit, fab was flexible., and price must have been in the ballpark because 4 other micros ordered the same kit (differing batch sizes though).


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## Jase (24/8/17)

Any hints on where rural outskirts of Sydney is Doogs?


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## mxd (25/8/17)

There's a brewery in Philip island who bought from China 

I think it's a 4 or 500 size they bought last year if you reach out they may be able to point you to some issues they had


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

The Phillips Island brewery on the main drag, Ocean Reach, went with Spark, IIRC. Spark does have their equipment produced in China AFAIK, but they do all their own engineering.

http://www.sparkbrew.com/


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## wide eyed and legless (25/8/17)

Didn't The Flying Horse at Warrnambool get theirs from China and spent nearly as much getting it fitted, going back a few years, I am sure it is better quality now.
+ 1 for the Agent, used to be 7% when I was there may be cheaper now all the expats are out of the game and the Chinese agents are undercutting each other as they do.


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## husky (25/8/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Didn't The Flying Horse at Warrnambool get theirs from China and spent nearly as much getting it fitted, going back a few years, I am sure it is better quality now.
> + 1 for the Agent, used to be 7% when I was there may be cheaper now all the expats are out of the game and the Chinese agents are undercutting each other as they do.



Yep and never could get it to run so canned that idea and now get it brewed off site.
I know a couple who have ordered Chinese breweries and have turned out ok. At the end of the day you're going to get what you pay for to a large degree. Even the best of the Chinese breweries stuff up the simple things. Usually nothing major so as long as you budget some local rework. Having said that for 100L I wouldn't be going to China. For a micro sized I would consider going to them for the tanks and then doing the pipework and electrical locally.


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## manticle (26/8/17)

Surely point 5 in the guarantee section is the clincher?


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## Doogs (28/8/17)

Hey guys, 

I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for all your input. Since I started this thread I've

*Spoken to several customs agents and to import it the costs are:*
10% GST
$185 Customs transaction fee 
$600 Port charges
$550 Delivery from Sydney port to the property approx 90mins drive north. 
All up about $2,500 on top of the purchase price

*Spoken to 2 former customers in Australia *
I'm pleased to report both were really happy with the rig and it's still working well, 2+ years later. 

*I'm sitting down with Pete from Wayward Brewing this week*
By the sounds of it, they've imported all their kit from China and have a few established contacts already. 

Cheers again for the advice fellas. Much appreciated! 

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

Yeah, do report back!


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## husky (29/8/17)

Doogs said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for all your input. Since I started this thread I've
> 
> ...



Is that based on a 20ft container?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (29/8/17)

Good to see that your intended system has good feedback from local users.

Things don't always go so well: I have been working with a local brewery who bought a 25hl turnkey system from China which is basically a dog and has never worked properly.

All the under brewhouse pipework has been rebuilt locally, which has helped, but there is nothing that can be done about some of the more egregious design flaws in the vessels themselves. They are considering selling it and starting again.

Take home lesson: don't rely on the vendor's expertise or advice from randoms on the interwebs (myself included). You really need to rely on your own expertise or that of someone you know and trust.


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## MetalRooster (29/8/17)

Maybe worthwhile giving Jimmy from Tinshed brewery in Dungog a call. He's got a pretty sweet setup and sourced it from China. Makes a bloody nice beer too!


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## SimoB (30/1/18)

Thought I'd revive this post - I noticed a mention of my brewery down on Phillip Island, we do have the Spark kit, but using a local supplier isn't always required. China has improved the quality overall, premier stainless, DME and Spark all have their tanks manufactured in China. Premier still construct the brewhouse in the US however.

All of the brewers I deal with have Chinese kit, Dainton, Mornington, Mr banks... list goes on. So don't be afraid of China, just do your homework.

Happy to have a chat with anyone who has questions - in other news, we're selling out Spark kit as a package sometime mid year.

Cheers,
Simon


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## mxd (31/1/18)

SimoB said:


> Thought I'd revive this post - I noticed a mention of my brewery down on Phillip Island, we do have the Spark kit, but using a local supplier isn't always required. China has improved the quality overall, premier stainless, DME and Spark all have their tanks manufactured in China. Premier still construct the brewhouse in the US however.
> 
> All of the brewers I deal with have Chinese kit, Dainton, Mornington, Mr banks... list goes on. So don't be afraid of China, just do your homework.
> 
> ...



you're going to a bigger system ?


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## Doogs (31/1/18)

Thanks Simon, your post prompted me to update this thread. 

I received the equipment a couple of weeks ago and am heading up to the property this weekend to spark it up! 

Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, I still got completely f&#cked by the shipping agent. It ended up costing me about $5,900 to get the equipment from the Sydney port to my place 90mins north... 

You can read the full story here: http://buckettys.com.au/pirates-getting-screwed-shipping-industry/


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## CJW (31/1/18)

Doogs said:


> Thanks Simon, your post prompted me to update this thread.


I hope Chicken Man Dave didn't read your post or he might want a piece of the action and charge you $300 per day storage.


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## Belgrave Brewer (31/1/18)

Doogs said:


> Thanks Simon, your post prompted me to update this thread.
> 
> I received the equipment a couple of weeks ago and am heading up to the property this weekend to spark it up!
> 
> ...


Mate, so sorry to hear.  That really sucks.


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## Doogs (31/1/18)

CJW said:


> I hope Chicken Man Dave didn't read your post or he might want a piece of the action and charge you $300 per day storage.



Haha yeah. I'm bloody lucky he's helped me out. It would have cost me another $1k to get a truck with a crane to lift it off otherwise. 

Now all it'll cost me is a lifetime's supply of beer!


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## CJW (31/1/18)

Belgrave Brewer said:


> Mate, so sorry to hear.  That really sucks.


Yeah, it is (I should have added that). The upside is that at least others can learn from his experience.


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## husky (31/1/18)

Doogs said:


> Thanks Simon, your post prompted me to update this thread.
> 
> I received the equipment a couple of weeks ago and am heading up to the property this weekend to spark it up!
> 
> ...



Dude that really sucks!
I have recently ordered some stuff from the land of China and despite the manufacturer telling me that shipping was "free" I was doubtful. I was also put off by how pushy they got when I said I would investigate my own freight options. I was lucky enough to have worked with a company who only deal with importing things on a project recently at work. I contacted them and mentioned I had been offered something too good to be true and wanted a comparison quote. The Aussie quote was a lot more but he then proceeded to explain how these "pirates" are all linked to the stainless manufacturers in China. The manufacturer gets to sprook free shipping(and get a kickback) and the "pirates" get paid because you don't know about their fees until your goods land and you're already too far committed. In fact you don't even know they are a link in the chain till the goods land.

The company I went with provided an estimate inc all freight and duty(plus the other 20 random fees) and their only stipulation was that if it gets called into customs for a random search there is a fee of a few hundred bux.
I went the Aussie option for piece of mind and to have a reliable contact in OZ. Mind you the freight component of the purchase makes up around 30% of the total cost. I'm happy to share the contact if anyone else is planning to bring stuff in. Will wait until end of Feb however once it's all landed to fully endorse but so far they have been great and very informative.


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## good4whatAlesU (1/2/18)

Cripes, sad to hear about all the hassles. What was the end figure? Total?


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## pat_00 (1/2/18)

Yeah this is a common problem with LCL cargo from China. It's a total scam. The industry term is 'Zero Drop Shipping'. Most of the time it is cheaper to get a whole container, at least then you have more control.

I know it's too late in this case, but for anyone else I'd recommend buying FOB or Ex Factory and organising freight from this end through a broker. At least you'll know what you're in for upfront.


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## SimoB (8/2/18)

mxd said:


> you're going to a bigger system ?



Sure are. Just places a deposit on 1500L Brewhouse with 30HL fermenters.

Sorry to hear about your shipping drama. We went FOB for ours and used a logistics company from QLD. We have two 40' containers delivered for just over double that.

Look forward to hearing about the beers you're making though!

Cheers
Simo


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## Doogs (4/3/18)

We wheeled the equipment into our newly renovated shed this weekend! 

I didn't get the warm fuzzy feeling I expected when we cracked open the shipping crate... You can read the full story on my blog: http://buckettys.com.au/the-brewing-equipments-here/


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## thewobblythong (9/3/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you're not in a hurry the China Brew Expo is on next year, October if I remember right in Shanghai, huge show and you may be able to pick up a bargain and stick it on a vessel in Shanghai Port.


ooh. that sounds like a bit of fun. might have to check that out..


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## thewobblythong (9/3/18)

Doogs said:


> We wheeled the equipment into our newly renovated shed this weekend!
> 
> I didn't get the warm fuzzy feeling I expected when we cracked open the shipping crate... You can read the full story on my blog: http://buckettys.com.au/the-brewing-equipments-here/


cheers for the detail Doogs. it's something that i'm starting to investigate, so appreciate the information.


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## lespaul (23/3/18)

Really loving the updates on brewery! keep em coming


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## Doogs (9/5/18)

I'm pleased to confirm we've just tapped our first beer from the new equipment. And it tastes bloody delicious! 

I've blogged about on our site here: http://buckettys.com.au/cracking-first-brew/

Thanks for the support guys. It's been a journey


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## Nullnvoid (9/5/18)

How funny, I was looking for this thread just the other day as I was wondering how things were ticking along!

Good job!


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## AlexBrew (13/5/18)

Great website and will be reading the journey! Just starting out in brewing its all very overwhelming and yet exciting at the same time.


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## lespaul (13/5/18)

Congratulations on your first brew and cheers to many more


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## Doogs (26/9/18)

We've now been using the equipment for 3 months and churned out quite a few brews from it with mixed results. 

I think you get what you pay for with this stuff. It works and does the job, but we've had to fix quite a few things in the process. I've updated our blog with all the trials and tribulations since the first brew. 

http://buckettys.com.au/3-months-7-brews-500-tonnes-gravel/


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## fdsaasdf (26/9/18)

Doogs said:


> We've now been using the equipment for 3 months and churned out quite a few brews from it with mixed results.
> 
> I think you get what you pay for with this stuff. It works and does the job, but we've had to fix quite a few things in the process. I've updated our blog with all the trials and tribulations since the first brew.
> 
> http://buckettys.com.au/3-months-7-brews-500-tonnes-gravel/


Thanks for continuing to document your journey.

Have you considered moving to caustic for cleaning?


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## Doogs (26/9/18)

fdsaasdf said:


> Thanks for continuing to document your journey.
> 
> Have you considered moving to caustic for cleaning?


Yeah I've thought about it, but I figure it's not great for the environment because the waste water isn't treated and just runs into the grass at the back (for now).


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## fdsaasdf (26/9/18)

Doogs said:


> Yeah I've thought about it, but I figure it's not great for the environment because the waste water isn't treated and just runs into the grass at the back (for now).


Fair enough, hadn't considered that would be an issue with the 100L setup. I assume water treatment is likely to be a significant factor with the DA for the future brewery.


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## Abird89 (26/9/18)

Keep going mate! And keep up the blogs!


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## Doogs (27/9/18)

fdsaasdf said:


> Fair enough, hadn't considered that would be an issue with the 100L setup. I assume water treatment is likely to be a significant factor with the DA for the future brewery.



Absolutely, we're going to need to call in some environmental consultants to come up with a solution. From what I understand it's all very doable, just depends on how much waste water you need to process and how much it'll cost. That part of the process is still 3 or so months away.


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## fdsaasdf (27/9/18)

Doogs said:


> Absolutely, we're going to need to call in some environmental consultants to come up with a solution. From what I understand it's all very doable, just depends on how much waste water you need to process and how much it'll cost. That part of the process is still 3 or so months away.


Best of luck with it!


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## Lionman (5/10/18)

Doogs said:


> We've now been using the equipment for 3 months and churned out quite a few brews from it with mixed results.
> 
> I think you get what you pay for with this stuff. It works and does the job, but we've had to fix quite a few things in the process. I've updated our blog with all the trials and tribulations since the first brew.
> 
> http://buckettys.com.au/3-months-7-brews-500-tonnes-gravel/



Love your honest write ups mate. Brewing is always an adventure, and a rollercoaster of lessons and achievements. Some would ague that the best school is the one of hard knocks so keep up the hard work and it will pay off.

Re pressure fermentation, are you using an adjustable spunding valve? I have done a few batches pressure fermented now and they have come out cracking. I'd recommend not going over 1BAR (15PSI). So far my favorite yeasts for pressure fermenting ales are Nottingham and WLP090.


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## Doogs (29/10/18)

Lionman said:


> Love your honest write ups mate. Brewing is always an adventure, and a rollercoaster of lessons and achievements. Some would ague that the best school is the one of hard knocks so keep up the hard work and it will pay off.
> 
> Re pressure fermentation, are you using an adjustable spunding valve? I have done a few batches pressure fermented now and they have come out cracking. I'd recommend not going over 1BAR (15PSI). So far my favorite yeasts for pressure fermenting ales are Nottingham and WLP090.



Cheers Lionman, yeah I've got a spunding valve, but had it set quite a bit higher. So are you fermenting at 1bar the entire time? Or just at the tail end?


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## Lionman (29/10/18)

Doogs said:


> Cheers Lionman, yeah I've got a spunding valve, but had it set quite a bit higher. So are you fermenting at 1bar the entire time? Or just at the tail end?



I let it free rise to 1bar and hold it there. If I want the beer fully carbonated at terminal gravity I'll adjust it with a few points to go to about 1.5bar and let it finish there. You can then chill and package and its ready to serve. Anything over 2bar and you are risking damaging the yeast.


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## Doogs (29/10/18)

Lionman said:


> I let it free rise to 1bar and hold it there. If I want the beer fully carbonated at terminal gravity I'll adjust it with a few points to go to about 1.5bar and let it finish there. You can then chill and package and its ready to serve. Anything over 2bar and you are risking damaging the yeast.



Cheers for that info. I've done quite a bit of reading and speaking to other brewers, but nobody seems to ferment under pressure. 

I would have thought it would speed up the process since the beer could be racked off straight from the fermenter instead of having to spend an extra day in the bright tank carbonating. 

Do you know why?


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## pirateagenda (29/10/18)

Doogs said:


> Cheers for that info. I've done quite a bit of reading and speaking to other brewers, but nobody seems to ferment under pressure.
> 
> I would have thought it would speed up the process since the beer could be racked off straight from the fermenter instead of having to spend an extra day in the bright tank carbonating.
> 
> Do you know why?



I find it slows the yeast a little bit, so the day the brite you save, you lose elsewhere. it also make dry hopping difficult because of foaming beer.


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## Lionman (29/10/18)

Cant speak for other brewers, but there are some challenges in pressure fermenting which may turn some people away.

If the yeast is slow then up the temp. The higher pressure means you can use a higher temp without the increase in ester production.

I have been trialling adding dry hops when I pitch the yeast which does seem to work quite well, haven't decided yet if its feasible going forward.

The real benefit in pressure fermenting is in lager production You can produce a clean lager ferment at ale temps with less need for lengthy lagering times. If you're only producing ales then there is less benefit.

This video is an interesting chat on the subject


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