# Using Less Water In Brew



## RobH (23/10/09)

Hi all,

I am a rather novice home brewer still, I have done 4 different brews with tins (extracts?) since I started back up again in July.

In my first brew I wasn't too careful with measuring the water and ended up adding an extra litre or two - resulting in a rather weak flavoured porter. So I was wondering, what would be the effect of adding less water? I am going to be using a tin of Morgans Australian Old, and the tin tells me it makes a total of 23 litres.

If I reduce the amount down to say 22 or 21 litres am I going to end up with a darker beer with a stronger flavour?

I will be using:
* Morgans Australian Old
* Sugar: Amber Fifty Fifty (500g Amber dried Malt Extract, 500g Dextrose monohydrate)
* Ringwood hops (I will create a seperate post to discuss how I should use these)

Thanks


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## Pennywise (23/10/09)

IMO using only a litre or 2 less wont change it dramatically, you'll end up with a stronger brew (alcohol & flavour wise) because the dilution of the ingredients in the tin and sugar pack will be less, it will also be a little bit more bitter. In my eperience it's better to brew to 21L because most kits have that watery feel when brewed to full volume without adding a heap of other stuff. All my brews from kits are 21L and I think I'm better for it.


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## Bribie G (23/10/09)

RobH said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am a rather novice home brewer still, I have done 4 different brews with tins (extracts?) since I started back up again in July.
> 
> ...



You would end up with a slightly stronger more flavourful brew. You can take it to whatever extreme you like, the 'extreme position' being to actually use two tins of kit in one brew. This is known here on the forum as a 
toucan. I make a nice toucan stout using two cans of Coopers, a kilo of LDME and a kilo of DEX in a 25L brew. It turns out over 9% alcohol so beware, more of a 'dessert port' type of beer.

Many brewers use one tin and brew to 20L so they can keg into a 19L cornelius keg, allowing a litre for wastage.


In the case of the hops, when using a kit you don't generally need to add extra bittering, because the kits contain a dose of bittering hops to start off with, some more bitter than others. So you are adding hops for extra flavour or aroma (basically similar things). So with a kit brew you add the hops late, and when starting off and experimenting you can simply, in the case of hop pellets or a hop 'teabag' just chuck them into the fermenter after about 3 days of fermentation. If you have got the hop flowers then you can make a pot of hop tea, exactly the same as using tea leaves, and pour the 'tea' into the fermenter. Ringwood should give you a bit more of a 'commercial' Tooheys Old twang to the brew. I bet you anything that the bittering hop extract in the Morgans tin is derived either from Pride of Ringwood or Superpride (a related variety) so they should go well together. I would use only around 15g of hops for a 'late addition'.

Welcome to the obsession


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## MarkBastard (23/10/09)

Yep I make 20L batches for kegging and I think even if I bottled I'd do the same. I'd much rather less beer but stronger flavour/alcohol personally. I reckon one tin in a 20L batch is the sweet spot.


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## RobH (24/10/09)

Thanks for the tips. I have settled on using 21 litres, and have boiled the hops seperately from the extract (didn't want to mess with the existing bittering & flavour in the extract) and will add another lot (dry) in about three days from now.

I have two fermenters, so I have done two brews: the Morgans Australian Old, with Ringwood hops, and a Coopers Pale Ale with Amarillo hops now & some Cascade hops for the late addition.

I rekon they should be nice and ready just in time for Christmas


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## PomBstard (24/10/09)

Interesting stuff. I've found my sweet spot to be two tins of extract (3kg total) into 17 litres. Tried quite a few variations to get this far - just couldn't get enough flavour from one tin for me. Also use hop-free extract so I can mix and match my own flavours with, ahem, interesting results...


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## lespaul (24/10/09)

need to be careful on the hop utilisation when doing extracts...

QUOTE (buttersd70 @ Jan 30 2009, 01:22 AM) 

A good rule of thumb for the boil is to add 100g of ldm per L of water (which will give a boil gravity of 1040), and for short boils like this, 2-3L would be sufficient. ...
someone else will know more about it but there are threads on this already

have fun with the brew


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## boingk (25/10/09)

One interesting thing I remember from an old thread was on commercial-scale high gravity brewing. The consensus seemed to be that its a good practise as there seems to be more residual flavour components compared to a brew fermented at a more regular gravity, even after watering down the high gravity brew to match. Not sure exactly why, however.

But yes, I also brew under 23L when using kits. My sticking point is 22L and it works alright for me.

Cheers - boingk


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## RobH (2/11/09)

Following up on this... I bottled the two brews yesterday afternoon - here's how it went ...


== Morgans Australian Old ==
* 1 x Tin Morgans Australian Old
* 1 x Saflager S23 Yeast
* 1kg 50/50 Amber dried malt extract \ Dextrose monohydrate
* 2 Tablespoons of Ringwood hops pellets boiled up for 20 mins in a stocking & then added to wort
* 1 Tablespoon of Ringwood Hops pellets for a late dry hopping
* Filled to 21 litres
-------
* 23/10/2009: Commenced Brewing
* 25/10/2009: SG=1025, taste=more sweet than bitter, krausen developed (approx 3cm) & has dropped
* 26/10/2009: SG=1018, taste=more bitter than sweet, added 1 tablespoon Ringwood hops in sticking bag (dry)
* 30/10/2009: SG=1011
* 31/10/2009: SG=1010
* 01/11/2009: SG=1010, bottled

== Coopers Pale Ale ==
* 1 x Tin Coopers Pale Ale
* 1 x Saflager S23 Yeast
* 1kg 50/50 Light dried malt extract \ Dextrose monohydrate
* 2 Tablespoons of Amarillo hops pellets boiled up for 20 mins in a stocking & then added to wort
* 1 Tablespoon of Cascade Hops pellets for a late dry hopping
* Filled to 21 litres
-------
* 23/10/2009: Commenced Brewing
* 25/10/2009: SG=1023, taste=evenly sweet & bitter, krausen had developed 1cm and has dropped
* 26/10/2009: SG=1014, taste=less sweet, more bitter, added 1 tablespoon Cascade hops in sticking bag (dry)
* 30/10/2009: SG=1012
* 31/10/2009: SG=1010, passionfruit aroma faintly present
* 01/11/2009: SG=1010, bottled

.... now all being well, just around Christmas time I will have some nice beer to drink 


and as I was in the "mode" ... I immediately put two more brews down:
... a Morgans Royal Oak Amber Ale - I didn't mess with this one at all, just the can + 1kg liquid amber malt & the Ale yeast supplied
... and whilst I was in the TCB shop on Friday, I thought I would take the plunge and give the TCB American Pale Ale Wetpack a go .... so for a good hour and a half whilst my wife was out, my house smelt like a brewery yesterday ... the great thing was that right at the end of it she came home and walked in the door saying "mmmm that smells good" ... woohoo


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## Pennywise (2/11/09)

I find that if you leave the brew for a bit longer than a week it comes out a fair bit cleaner, I generally leave mine for 2 weeks even though it's finished in 1. No need to take SG reading every day (unless you want to for a taste), my reasoning is the more readings you take during fermentation, the less beer you have at the end (yes I'm a tight arse  ). Seems like it all went to plan for you though, hard part now is trying not to drink it till' it's ready


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## Infinitee (3/11/09)

I once whacked a coopers stout kit into 17-18L of water in my vessel.

The taste was impossibly unpleasantly strong.
Good texture, bearable when ice-cold, bit more bearable after the first one.
But there was a taste of vegemite ... the yeast and 'stoutiness' were gut wrenching for some.

And yet, after some magic point that occurred in the 7th or so week ... it became magical.
Very tasty, less salty.

Dunno what happened, but I wish I'd left more till that point.

Sometimes the failures become the success.

(I'd say the kits are usually a dash weak and aim for a bit less water to a bit stronger effect normally, but not 6L worth, bout 2 or 3.)
^_^


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## boingk (4/11/09)

Good stuff RobH! Tell you what though, if you want to bring out a bit more in that Morgans Royal Oak, throw in 10~20g of Amarillo after the 4 day mark of fermentation. I've dry hopped this kit in the past and found it to complement it quite well, and the liquid amber malt will only help things along.

Gotta do another one of those sometime actually...

Cheers! - boingk


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## RobboMC (4/11/09)

Each type of kit probably has it's 'sweet spot'

I made a Muntons Yorkshire Bitter which is a not particularly bitter kit in the first place at about 20 IBU when mixed,
with 1kg can of Caramalt, brewed with volume of 19 litres.

It was meant to be a 'quick and fast' kit brew to fill some bottles for my father-in-law,
turned out to be one of the best kit brews I ever made.

Have another Yorkshire going now with 2 kg of Caramalt and 25g of extra Goldings boiled in, volume is 27 litres.

There's no rule that says you have to brew at 23 litres.


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## RobH (5/11/09)

Homebrewer79 said:


> I find that if you leave the brew for a bit longer than a week it comes out a fair bit cleaner...



yeah, I dunno why, but I was feeling a tad impatient this time and wanted to get another batch down asap... this lot that is on now is staying in for a good two weeks 



boingk said:


> throw in 10~20g of Amarillo after the 4 day mark of fermentation...



After reading this, I was tempted ... can't help but tinker... but when I took a SG reading last night just to see how it was going (1020) I tasted the sample & decided right there and then I wasn't gonna mess with something that tastes that good after 4 days in the fermenter. I will however keep that in mind for the next time I do this beer. Thanks


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## boingk (5/11/09)

> I wasn't gonna mess with something that tastes that good


Agreed. Its a darn good stock kit, I remember using a brew I did with one for a 'case challenge' at uni. Man, was that a good day!

- boingk


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## RobH (11/11/09)

RobH said:


> Following up on this... I bottled the two brews yesterday afternoon - here's how it went ...


On day 2 in the bottles I inverted them and gave them a swirl to re-suspend the yeast.

Tonight I chilled well & cracked open a bottle of each after 10 days in the bottle....

The Coopers PA had nice typical Pale Ale aromas (hard to describe except for the certainty that it smelt like a Pale Ale) - crisp tasting & it's bitterness and hops flavour was stronger that the standard Coopers PA ... so I achieved my objective there, and it was quite drinkable, I didn't detect any "green-ness" in the way it tasted. Drank it all and forgot to take a photo 
Very little head, but still carbonated well.

The Morgans Old:



As you can see .... a fair bit of head.
Aroma is like that of any standard Aussie Dark ... mild roasted, but with a bit of a ... umm ... twang, I suppose ... that will probbably fade with age. It tastes ok, with a good degree of bitterness ... however for a dark it tastes a bit dry ... I am guessing that might have something to do with using a lager yeast.

All in all, I am quite happy with both - to be honest, I wasn't holding out any great expectations for these two because I used a lager yeast and then realised that the weather was quite a bit warmer from the last time I put a couple of brews on (August) .... so temp control was not ideal & I am sure it got up to 18 .. maybe even 20 degrees at times.

The Pale will be good for drinking sooner and the dark I think I will leave for a few months and come back to it. 

My American Pale Ale, and Morgans Amber are still in the fermenter ... took SG readings and tasted last night ... mmmm I have a feeling those two are gonna be my best brews yet :icon_drool2:


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## david effer (1/1/19)

Bribie G said:


> You would end up with a slightly stronger more flavourful brew. You can take it to whatever extreme you like, the 'extreme position' being to actually use two tins of kit in one brew. This is known here on the forum as a
> toucan. I make a nice toucan stout using two cans of Coopers, a kilo of LDME and a kilo of DEX in a 25L brew. It turns out over 9% alcohol so beware, more of a 'dessert port' type of beer.
> 
> Many brewers use one tin and brew to 20L so they can keg into a 19L cornelius keg, allowing a litre for wastage.
> ...


if you use one can in 20 litres do you have to reduce the initial sugars


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