# Home Brewing V Craft Brewing



## esssee (12/3/11)

Hi all,

I'm newish to Home Brewing, but find that when I try to share my enthusiasm with people, and mention "Home Brewing", they immediately turn their nose up, and associate this with bad beer, or Moonshine.

I have found that if I call it "Craft Brewing", immediately I get a spark of interest without the preconceptions.

Having said that, is there, in the industry, a distinct difference between the two?

Interested in peoples opinions.

Steve.


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## Nick JD (12/3/11)

I recently handed a mate a stubbie of my beer. He asked if it was homebrew and I said, no - it's beer.


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## Guysmiley54 (12/3/11)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I saw a funny T-Shirt that sums it up in a way:

"It's hand-made not home-made bitch!"


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## bum (12/3/11)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...hl=craftbrewing


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## Cocko (12/3/11)

I use my hands.

At home.

And craft beer.

Hmm... who knows what I am drinking?


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## Silo Ted (12/3/11)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbrewery#Craft_beer

_
Craft Beer is an American term also common in Canada and New Zealand to refer to beer brewed without adjuncts such as rice or corn, for distinction and flavor rather than mass appeal.[25]

Some define craft beer as beer made without rice or corn, but outside of North America and Asia, rice and corn are rarely used in the making of traditional beer. In Germany tradition (and for a long time, Bavarian law, saw the Reinheitsgebot of 1516) dictate that only barley-malt, hops, and water were used in the making of beer. A similar law, the Isle of Man's Pure Beer Act of 1874[26] is still in force and means that Manx brewers can use nothing more than water, malt, sugar and hops in their brews There are those, however, that disagree with the notion that any such rules be applied to all beer "styles" and maintain that so-called "craft" beer can indeed contain other grains or adjunct sugars (as some "craft" and specialty products indeed do). To this end, it should be noted that a good many traditional British beers (including "real ale") have, for more than a century, made use of these adjunct grains as well as kettle sugars of various types (molasses, treacle, and "brewers" sugar, sometimes called invert sugar) to enhance rather than lighten the flavor. Indeed, it can be argued that such additions can be an important and vital part of some traditional beers.

Craft beer refers to the products of brewpubs and smaller breweries, though some larger breweries, hoping to profit from the recent popularity of craft beer, believe that they should be able to market their all-malt beers as craft beers. Many craft beers are unfiltered, bottle conditioned or cask conditioned. They generally contain fewer adjuncts than mass-produced beers, with few exceptions._


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## Brewman_ (12/3/11)

esssee said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm newish to Home Brewing, but find that when I try to share my enthusiasm with people, and mention "Home Brewing", they immediately turn their nose up, and associate this with bad beer, or Moonshine.
> 
> ...



Hi Steve,
I think most people on this site have had that experience. I had a guy tell me how he lived in Europe for 5 years and loved a certain beer. So I made something along these lines for him, and gave him a try. The response I got was that is was no where near as good as Carlton Cold. Apparently that was the bench mark?

On the other hand I have people that love red wine taste some of my beer and completely convert them to beer other than what they would normally drink. Call that better beer?

Each to thier own dude, just love what you are doing, but don't just rely on your mates feedback.



My advice is to link up with some like minded brewers in your local area. There are clubs running out of Melbourne and these guys will definitely share your enthusiasm and also help you brew better beer.

Fear_n_loath


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## Brad Churchill (13/3/11)

This thread reminds me of something that happened about 10 years ago.

A few of us went to a mates place for a few beers. I would normally take some homebrews with me but on this occassion I picked up some beer from the bottleshop.

I didn't drink it all that night and left one in my mates fridge.

Here's the funny thing. My mate thought it was my homebrew and I found out that he tried it about a week later turned his nose up at it and poured it down the sink.

What makes this even funnier is the fact that the beer was actually what he normally drinks!

This illustrates the power of preconception and also when it comes to homebrew some people are quite simply not willing to give it a try.

I have never told my mate his mistake. Perhaps one day I will.

Just three weeks ago I was at another mates place with my homebrew sharing it around and recieving some comments like 'that's beautiful' and 'ohh that's golden'. 

My mate who thought he had tipped my beer down the sink 10 odd years ago was there but I didn't offer him any. Perhaps if he asks to try some in the near future I will say 'You're not going to tip it down the sink are you.' and then reveal his mistake of years past.... perhaps do it in a room full of people.... hmmm now there's a thought


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## Brad Churchill (13/3/11)

I think it is labelled 'homebrew' unless you go commercial at which stage it becomes 'craft beer.'

It is a name that has come out of the US. Before it was called craft beer it was called boutique beer.
Perhaps in a few more years it will be labelled 'Artisans Beer' to keep it fashionable.

There is definately a lot of preconseptions attached to homebrew still.

I have found its best to only talk about your homebrew with those of your friends who appreciate different beers and are more open minded. These days this seems to include more and more of my friends as their taste buds become educated as to what a good ale should taste like.

Cheers

Brad



esssee said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm newish to Home Brewing, but find that when I try to share my enthusiasm with people, and mention "Home Brewing", they immediately turn their nose up, and associate this with bad beer, or Moonshine.
> 
> ...


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## Maxt (13/3/11)

If you use a tin of goo and the yeast under the lid, and ferment in your shed, it's homebrew.

If you mash, manage yeast and control ferment, it's craftbrew.


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## stux (13/3/11)

"All-grain brewer" seems to work well


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## michael_aussie (13/3/11)

Snow said:


> As I said in the previous thread, IMO, people (ie amateur brewers) who find the need to call themselves "craftbrewers", are just homebrewers with an inferiority complex.
> 
> Cheers - Snow.


+1

I had a mate at school who was didn't eat "corned beef" only ate "silverside".
The rest agreed he was a wanker.


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## manticle (13/3/11)

Doesn't matter what I call it - if it's good, it's good, if it's shit it's shit.

Usually I just say I brew my own beer and describe the process if warranted. Some people are interested, some people couldn't care, some people think VB is the holy grail.

Nice dismissal of kit brewers there Max T. Is there any level in between kit yeast/shed fermentation and AG brewers?


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## brocky_555 (13/3/11)

Maxt said:


> If you use a tin of goo and the yeast under the lid, and ferment in your shed, it's homebrew.
> 
> If you mash, manage yeast and control ferment, it's craftbrew.




I agree 

I think that is where most people get thier misconceptions. I have a few mates that have tried to brew and it was in the summer months and followed the cna instructions and wondered why their beer turned out like it did. Have had some of those mates try the beers I make and they ask why didn't my beers turn out like that. I'm not saying that you cant make reasonable beers from kits. I still make the odd beer from a can but the difference is you have to take some care with it add some hops and spec grains and look after the yeast even though it may only be the can yeast it is still yeast and has to be cared for. There will always be a place for kit brewers they just have to be better educated. I learn most of my stuff from books, online resources and use this forum as a staarting point to find out more for yourself. 

But I wouldn't call myself a craft brewer I will leave that for the pro's I prefer amateur brewer


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## bum (13/3/11)

It's pretty funny how many homebrewe...erm...people who make beer at home seem to have the _exact same_ prejudices against homebrew that they lament in the broader community.

There's always going to be home-made beers of differing quality - there's no reason at all they can't all exist under the same banner.


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## gregs (13/3/11)

I think mixing up a can of goo with sugar ect could be associated more with fermenting than actually brewing.

No prejudice though, each to their own.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (13/3/11)

Difference between a cook and a chef possibly?? I'm a cook therefore caned baked beans for me. My son is a chef - he'll get his beans and make them from scratch.
No fart icon - disappointing....


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## manticle (13/3/11)

gregs said:


> I think mixing up a can of goo with sugar ect could be associated more with fermenting than actually brewing.
> 
> No prejudice though, each to their own.



Home fermenter?


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## Kranky (13/3/11)

I tell people I'm either an all-grain brewer or homebrewer. I think once people realise that you make beer at home they just think it's homebrew regardless. Their expectations will remain the same - that you make nasty alcoholic piss (Ironically, last christmas I gave an uncle who does K&K a pint of Pliny the Elder clone. He didn't look to happy about trying someone else's homebrew, to say the least. Once he tried he loved it).

To me a craft brewer is someone who runs their own brewery and doesn't make megaswill. In my opinion in a perfect world megaswill shouldn't be allowed to be called "beer," so "craft" wouldn't be need to be used.


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## tavas (13/3/11)

I tell people I make my own beer, from all natural products. It gives that "organic and wholesome" edge to it. It's still homebrew, but they don't see it like that.


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## michael_aussie (13/3/11)

bum said:


> It's pretty funny how many homebrewe...erm...people who make beer at home seem to have the _exact same_ prejudices against homebrew that they lament in the broader community.


I couldn't agree more Bum.



bum said:


> There's always going to be home-made beers of differing quality - there's no reason at all they can't all exist under the same banner.


I couldn't agree more Bum.
ironicially more in here judge a beer (brewer) by HOW it was made rather than the end RESULT.




Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Difference between a cook and a chef possibly?? I'm a cook therefore caned baked beans for me. My son is a chef - he'll get his beans and make them from scratch.
> No fart icon - disappointing....


and to take this analogy further, some chef cook meals aren't as tasty as home cooked meals using some pre-processed ingredients. .

I find the snobbery by certain individuals at AHB pathetic.
It is the only unpalatable thing about this web site.


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## gregs (13/3/11)

What snobbery do you speak of? You either brew beer or you dont. Its as simple as that.


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## Yob (13/3/11)

brew at home = homebrewer 

brew at home to select recipe and ingredients so as to get a predicted outcome in product = craftbeer

sometimes I can even homebrew craftbeer :blink: or is that craftbrew homebeer :blink: 

all in how you look at it I guess

:lol:


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## Nick JD (13/3/11)

_Craft_brewers crochet their own BIABags and sew pompoms onto their hopsocks.

I just make _beer_. Stop trying to label me, man.


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## unrealeous (13/3/11)

I agree there is a definitely a prejudice against home brew - if I call my beer home brew people don't even want to try it.

However if call it craft brew - I generally end up with with blank stares.

I get a much better response telling people I have my own micro brewery. ie its micro-brew.


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## Braumoasta (13/3/11)

michael_aussie said:


> I find the snobbery by certain individuals at AHB pathetic.
> It is the only unpalatable thing about this web site.



+1


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## bradsbrew (13/3/11)

I've gone back to calling it homebrew. Non brewers that have tried my beers will bring it up in conversation and will ask what types of beers I've been brewing with interest. The relos dont bother bringing beers over to my place anymore and will usually try each beer on tap and usually have a few.
I am always happy to tell people that I make homebrew some are interested, some aren't and some are cocks.
If they want to relate it to crap beer and moonshine without trying it, thats their choice, fuckem'.

Cheers


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## DU99 (13/3/11)

+1 iamozziyob post..we brew it a home and craft that requires some particular kind of skilled work..majority follow a recipe,some just a can opener..but its a skill to know when to add the ingredients(yeast/hops/grain's and even sugar/salt)


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## Nick JD (13/3/11)

michael_aussie said:


> I find the snobbery by certain individuals at AHB pathetic.
> It is the only unpalatable thing about this web site.



I find the people who care about snobbery pathetic.


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## Yob (13/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> I find the people who care about snobbery pathetic.




I find the people who care about what people think are beyond help


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## bum (13/3/11)

I find the people who do thing-A are attribute-B.


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## Innes (13/3/11)

I know I'm dreaming, but what I would love to see is one of the major networks create a TV show about homebrewing using the same formula as the successful amateur chef/cooking shows such as Masterchef or My Kitchen Rules. These shows are successful because they show the average person sitting at home that with a little effort, they can create restaurant quality food dishes at home and impress their family and friends. I reckon it would also work with beer.

I think it would do a lot to open people's minds and remove some of the stigma associated with home brewed beer.

Besides, I wouldn't mind being a contestant on Masterbrewer or My Brewhouse Rules. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (13/3/11)

bum said:


> I find the people who do thing-A are attribute-B.



I find bits of food in my beard sometimes.


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## gregs (13/3/11)

You are dreaming, my kitchen rules and Master chef are not a success.


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## Maxt (13/3/11)

I don't tell people that I am about to offer a beer to, that it's homebrew.
Homebrew conjures up memories of horrible nasty stuff for most folk.

I have invested 20 obsessive years of my life trying to perfect this craft (although I know I never will). 
What I do is craft (and even art at times). 
Putting a tin of goo into a bucket to save some money on piss is not.

I actually enjoy the making of beer as much (if not more) than the drinking. I love all the techincal stuff.

If I choose to call myself a craftbrewer, (and by extension distance myself from goo brewers), then that's my business.

I have never met a kit brewer who has tried my beers, and who thinks there's are better, but I have met heaps who are not interested in AG, and that's cool as well if they enjoy what they make, but they are not in the same league in terms of product or knowledge, that I am.

Snobby?

As Donal Duck Dunn said,"If the shit fits, wear it"!


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## manticle (13/3/11)

Maxt said:


> What I do is craft (and even art at times).
> Putting a tin of goo into a bucket to save some money on piss is not.



However sprucing up a kit, making an extract brew, steeping grains or making a partial mash brew is (or can be if the beer maker cares about the end product).


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## gregs (13/3/11)

Manticle ,I think you are saying that toasting some bread and opening up a can of baked beans is actually cooking an exquisite meal. :lol: 
I'm a snob and love it.


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## Hatchy (13/3/11)

manticle said:


> I find bits of food in my beard sometimes.



I find it quite convenient when I find bits of food in my beard.


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## MHB (13/3/11)

For me the difference is whether you are brewing for Taste or Alcohol.

Carried to extremes its whether you make decision based on price alone or on how the beer is going to taste regardless of price, thats obviously the opposite ends of a spectrum and it isnt always going to be an either or decision, but look at your prime motivator to see where you stand.

MHB


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## leiothrix (13/3/11)

michael_aussie said:


> +1
> 
> I had a mate at school who was didn't eat "corned beef" only ate "silverside".
> The rest agreed he was a wanker.



Well, he might have been a wanker, but silverside is a cut of beef, and corned beef is beef that has been salt cured. In Australia we generally use silverside to make corned beef, but the two are not the same things.


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## staggalee (13/3/11)

Maxt said:


> I don't tell people that I am about to offer a beer to, that it's homebrew.
> Homebrew conjures up memories of horrible nasty stuff for most folk.
> 
> I have never met a kit brewer who has tried my beers, and who thinks there's are better,


I just had a terrible thought........is it possible they were just being kind to you?
You know, going along with the gag?


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## Maxt (13/3/11)

If I couldn't make beer that was infinitely better than their woolworths brand lager fermented at 36degrees, well shucks, I'd sell all my gear and take up a new hobby.

Doing the BJCP course made me a beer snob. The reality is that an awful lot of homebrew/craftbrew is crap and flawed. If they asked for feedback, I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone their beer was terrible. If they didn't ask, I would find somewhere to tip it. 

Life's too short to drink crap beer....even/especially if it's cheap!


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## philw (13/3/11)

home brew all the way 

all this modern fancy naming for things.... 

i brew caus like everyone else here you enjoy it, if people don't like it caus of the term home brew than that is there issue and means more beer for your self


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## michael_aussie (13/3/11)

bradsbrew said:


> I've gone back to calling it homebrew. ..
> I am always happy to tell people that I make homebrew some are interested, some aren't and some are cocks.
> If they want to relate it to crap beer and moonshine without trying it, thats their choice, fuckem'.


Dont worry . Cocks are found where ever you go, even at the AHB website.



manticle said:


> I find bits of food in my beard sometimes.


you are a funny guy manticle. ..and a very real guy too. I always enjoy your posts, and hope to meet you one day.



MHB said:


> For me the difference is whether you are brewing for Taste or Alcohol.



+1



leiothrix said:


> Well, he might have been a wanker, but silverside is a cut of beef, and corned beef is beef that has been salt cured. In Australia we generally use silverside to make corned beef, but the two are not the same things.


ty for taking to time to differentiate the two words. 
I think you missed the point. All of us had corned silverside in our sandwiches, and all of us enjoyed our sandwiches.

To the craft-brewers, I am touched that you brewing Gods take your time to visit www.aussiehomebrewer.com.
Maybe you should find a new web site. You dont want your craft-beer to be inadvertently associated with mere home-brew.

Actually, I actually no longer home-brew.
and have actually skipped craft-brewing..
I awesomebrew.

I have formed my own web site, and have my forum www.awsomebrewers.com.au

.. anyone with their hand on it is welcome to apply.


BACK TO REALITY
I think its sad, that some people with more time or DI on their hands,
.. think they have the moral high ground to look down on others who are doing their best and trying their hardest using the money and time they have to make the best beer they can.

I wonder whether the snobs in the AG community also have a mini-pecking order, based on:
1. who does or doesnt mill their own grain.
2. who does or doesnt grown their own hops
3. who does or doesnt culture their own yeast???
I know there are other AGers who are bloody nice blokes, and to you I salute.


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## gregs (13/3/11)

michael_aussie said:


> Don't worry . Cocks are found where ever you go, even at the AHB website.
> 
> 
> you are a funny guy manticle. ..and a very "real" guy too. I always enjoy your posts, and hope to meet you one day.
> ...




What point are you trying to make here? :blink:


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## bradsbrew (13/3/11)

Sorry,"*www.awsomebrewers.com.au*" does not exist or is not available. #dymresults 



Well that was dissappointing. Looks likethe homebrewers in Milwaukee are snobby wankers. ehhhhhhh sit on it.


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## Maxt (13/3/11)

michael_aussie said:


> Dont worry . Cocks are found where ever you go, even at the AHB website.



Yep




michael_aussie said:


> To the craft-brewers, I am touched that you brewing Gods take your time to visit www.aussiehomebrewer.com.
> Maybe you should find a new web site. You dont want your craft-beer to be inadvertently associated with mere home-brew.



So even though you have been a member for less than a year, you feel it's your role to decide who uses the site?

I agree with your above comment even more now.


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## bum (13/3/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Sorry,"*www.awsomebrewers.com.au*" does not exist or is not available. #dymresults
> 
> 
> 
> Well that was dissappointing. Looks likethe homebrewers in Milwaukee are snobby wankers. ehhhhhhh sit on it.


I think you'll find if you give your browser a sharp hit to the side the page will start working.


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## bradsbrew (13/3/11)

bum said:


> I think you'll find if you give your browser a sharp hit to the side the page will start working.



I did that and it started playing some slow song about putting my head on your shoulder..............



Come to think of it Incider tried to do that to me at a swap once :huh:


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## michael_aussie (13/3/11)

Maxt said:


> So even though you have been a member for less than a year, you feel it's your role to decide who uses the site?


I'm happy for everone who have any interest in home brewing to use the site.
I was just flagging to the "craft-brewers not home brewers" that maybe they've outgrown the site.


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## bignath (13/3/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Looks likethe homebrewers in Milwaukee are snobby wankers. ehhhhhhh sit on it.






bum said:


> I think you'll find if you give your browser a sharp hit to the side the page will start working.


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## browndog (13/3/11)

> To the craft-brewers, I am touched that you brewing Gods take your time to visit www.aussiehomebrewer.com.
> Maybe you should find a new web site. You dont want your craft-beer to be inadvertently associated with mere home-brew



Your taking the piss right? You have been a member here for 5 mins and are telling 70% of the brewers here they are up themselves! Maybe you should find a new site.

Are you BribieG?


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## staggalee (14/3/11)

browndog said:


> Your taking the piss right? You have been a member here for 5 mins and are telling 70% of the brewers here they are up themselves! Maybe you should find a new site.
> 
> Are you BribieG?



Why would you think that?
His {michael aussie} post is contrary to anything Bribie has ever posted.
Just wondering how you came by that train of thought?


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## manticle (14/3/11)

gregs said:


> Manticle ,I think you are saying that toasting some bread and opening up a can of baked beans is actually cooking an exquisite meal. :lol:
> I'm a snob and love it.



No.

All exquisite meals contain bacon.


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## gregs (14/3/11)

manticle said:


> No.
> 
> All exquisite meals contain bacon.



Correct. :icon_cheers:


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## bignath (14/3/11)

earle said:


> My issue with your original post is that you seem to be suggesting that unless you ag then you might as well just use a can of goo, a kilo of white sugar, kit yeast and ferment at 35C. In doing so you ignore and at the same time disparage any of the steps in between. There would be a lot of brewers on this site like myself who are not yet (or perhaps for various reaons never will) ag brewers who find this suggestion annoying. I kits n bits and extract brew and will soon start doing partials, but just like you don't want my brew grouped with the nasty k&k stuff to which you refer.
> 
> Its been said many times before on this site that it is possible to get great extract beer and shit ag beer which suggests that while method is important that the planning stage is also crucial. The majority of people on this site don't just chuck their brew together, with a style or end result in mind they choose ingredients, hop schedule yeast etc and I think this is where the 'craft' aspect comes in. Ultimately its the resulting beer thats important.



Good post earle.

Whilst i am a mash brewer as of two years ago (still a long way to go though), there are plenty of K&K brewers out there making fine beer and spending time constructing recipes and putting a lot of thought into their processes. It's been said many times over by now, but many beers have taken out awards in beer comps using tins of goo.

Whilst i have never been pleased with MY efforts of beer production using cans (now completely satisfied since going AG), i think it's important not to discriminate between the different methods to put beer together.
I still use cans when my stock levels are in trouble and need something quick that i'll "be happy to drink", and i think the thought process and amount of effort expelled is a worthy requirement to be proud of anyones beers.

Cheers,

Nath


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/3/11)

My best stouts came from extract. And I could produce a consistent result as well, as the end user (me) and his flaws had less of a bearing on the outcome, as the main ingredients were, in some way, pre-prepared.

I have had the last 2 AG batches go bung, because of poor temp control. Given I always brewed K&K in winter, I'd never put enough thought into temp control as such, it was naturally done, by virtue of fantastic winter brewing temps in Qld. They were my worst beers ever.

As earle and BigNath said - the process and the attention to these details will result in better beer regardless of ingredients used. Having said that, the same beer produced with the same attention to these details will be better as an AG beer, as the ingredients are fresher. 

But the greater degree of variation with AG means that this comparison could never be fair, because for all the extra benefits one gets from AG ingredients, one gives up benefits to extract brewing with consistency of product (extract). I would feel more confident of knocking out my best beer with AG (and my worst as well), whereas I would feel more confident of achieving a consistently good result with extract brewing. If that result happens to be a fantastic beer, then for some, extract brewing will be their zenith.

Horses, courses, etc.

Goomba


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## [email protected] (14/3/11)

To put it all in very simple terms - its not what you do , its how you go about doing it that counts, caring and planning for a brew , giving it your fullest attention from start to finish. 

I think its been said? theres a difference in slapping together a quick brew for alcohol to get drunk and not really caring for it and then there is taking the time to craft something that you hope will bring you pleasure in terms of taste, the alcohol is just a by-product of the whole process.

my 2 bob


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## philw (14/3/11)

earle said:


> My issue with your original post is that you seem to be suggesting that unless you ag then you might as well just use a can of goo, a kilo of white sugar, kit yeast and ferment at 35C. In doing so you ignore and at the same time disparage any of the steps in between. There would be a lot of brewers on this site like myself who are not yet (or perhaps for various reaons never will) ag brewers who find this suggestion annoying. I kits n bits and extract brew and will soon start doing partials, but just like you don't want my brew grouped with the nasty k&k stuff to which you refer.
> 
> Its been said many times before on this site that it is possible to get great extract beer and shit ag beer which suggests that while method is important that the planning stage is also crucial. The majority of people on this site don't just chuck their brew together, with a style or end result in mind they choose ingredients, hop schedule yeast etc and I think this is where the 'craft' aspect comes in. Ultimately its the resulting beer thats important.




Post of the week 

it is something I originally saw about the place with he elitist side of AG, however that passed after a while. 


it is not just brewing though take most things there are elitist people in it.


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## gregs (14/3/11)

earle said:


> My issue with your original post is that you seem to be suggesting that unless you ag then you might as well just use a can of goo, a kilo of white sugar, kit yeast and ferment at 35C. In doing so you ignore and at the same time disparage any of the steps in between. There would be a lot of brewers on this site like myself who are not yet (or perhaps for various reaons never will) ag brewers who find this suggestion annoying. I kits n bits and extract brew and will soon start doing partials, but just like you don't want my brew grouped with the nasty k&k stuff to which you refer.
> 
> Its been said many times before on this site that it is possible to get great extract beer and shit ag beer which suggests that while method is important that the planning stage is also crucial. The majority of people on this site don't just chuck their brew together, with a style or end result in mind they choose ingredients, hop schedule yeast etc and I think this is where the 'craft' aspect comes in. Ultimately its the resulting beer thats important.



Are you saying youre a craft brewer or a home brewer?


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## Bribie G (14/3/11)

browndog said:


> Your taking the piss right? You have been a member here for 5 mins and are telling 70% of the brewers here they are up themselves! Maybe you should find a new site.
> 
> Are you BribieG?



:blink:




Edit: 

Actually I'm probably too old to be BribieG


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## haysie (14/3/11)

michael_aussie said:


> I'm happy for everone who have any interest in home brewing to use the site.
> I was just flagging to the "craft-brewers not home brewers" that maybe they've outgrown the site.



Outgrown the site? Can we oldies AND craftbrewers still participate in bulks, jokes, off topics, ahb meetings, comps. FFS :angry:


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## gregs (14/3/11)

earle said:


> Neither. I'm simply making a comment taking issue with the suggestion that brewers are one of two stereotypes:
> a ) AG = craftbrewer = great beer
> b ) everything else = homebrewer = shit beer
> 
> ...



Who was suggesting this? And labelling you?


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## warra48 (14/3/11)

I really don't care what you call yourself. 
Craft, Home, Mini, Small Batch, Scratch, Hobby, etc etc etc.
Who cares?

I brew for myself. I brew in my garage, so I'm a GarageBrewer.

All I know is I'm happy to drink most (not all) of my brews. My visitors, on the whole, seem to appreciate my beers, but that's not why I brew. I brew because it's one of my hobbies, and I love the reality of drinking some great beers, and thinking "I brewed that". That's all the satisfaction I need. I don't need a lable to stroke my ego.


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## Nick JD (14/3/11)

manticle said:


> No.
> 
> All exquisite meals contain bacon.



You gotta die of something...

http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/


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## Nick JD (14/3/11)

K&K brewing is painting a wall. AG brewing is painting a picture.

I'm not Leonardo, but you can usually tell what it is.


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

I'm not concerned at all at labelling myself and never have felt the need to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the OP was suggesting that using the term "Homebrew" could put off of someone currently unaware of the possibility of great tasting home brewed beer.

*I think it does*. I've seen it happen countless times, and I'm sure that most of you have too. I don't give a flying [email protected]#$ what you call your beer or how you make it but I think there is merit in presenting the "craft" of home made beer in the best light possible. The more people that understand how great fresh made beer, brewed to personal preference and style (also often affordably) the better off all home brewers will be. Marketing is important, and if giving it a label encourages someone new to take a sip and use their imagination into the world of home brewing then I'm all for it.

As for AG VS Kit... If ridiculing someone who doesn't have the time for long brew days or have the knowledge/experience/gear for AG *makes you feel super good about yourself *then I reckon it's just a little bit sad for you eh?


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## gregs (14/3/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I'm not concerned at all at labelling myself and never have felt the need to.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the OP was suggesting that using the term "Homebrew" could put off of someone currently unaware of the possibility of great tasting home brewed beer.
> 
> ...



Whos ridiculing you?


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

gregs said:


> Whos ridiculing you?



Me? I personally brew ag. But I see plenty of harsh world against kit brewers on this site, this thread alone is full of this stuff.

I think you've missed my point though mate.


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## gregs (14/3/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> Me? I personally brew ag. But I see plenty of harsh world against kit brewers on this site, this thread alone is full of this stuff.
> 
> I think you've missed my point though mate.



No I havent missed any point; I just havent taken them on. I was asking a simple question about who is ridiculing and labelling who, thats all.


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

gregs said:


> No I havent missed any point; I just havent taken them on. I was asking a simple question about who is ridiculing and labelling who, thats all.



Not a drama mate.

Most people would agree that a hand prepared meal made by someone who has a lot of knowledge and passion for food will probably be better than a mass produced factory made product.

If calling home brewed beer craftbrewed beer helps to convince more people to try it, that's gotta be a good thing.


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## Maxt (14/3/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> Most people would agree that a hand prepared meal made by someone who has a lot of knowledge and passion for food will probably be better than a mass produced factory made product.
> 
> If calling home brewed beer craftbrewed beer helps to convince more people to try it, that's gotta be a good thing.



KA CHING!


Crap beer is crap beer whether from a can or from a mash, but the vast majority of mash brewers I know (other than beginners), make better beer than you can achieve with a kit.

We all started with kits, the difference is most people interested in quality move on.


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## browndog (14/3/11)

BribieG said:


> :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, Bribie, I know you like to stir the pot a bit and I think this Aussie Michael is just doing the same.


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

Maxt said:


> KA CHING!
> 
> 
> Crap beer is crap beer whether from a can or from a mash, but the vast majority of mash brewers I know (other than beginners), make better beer than you can achieve with a kit.
> ...



Yes, agreed! 

I don't know why I feel I need to defend the K&K brigade here...

I would love it if non-brewers could forget about the stigma of dodgy home-brew. With the new found popularity of "craft-brewing" it seems like calling our beer "craft brewed beer" and not "home brew" may actually encourage non-brewers to give it a proper chance. Like I said earlier, I don't care how you label yourself or how you prepare it. I just know that in my experience, re-branding the concept helps to win new fans to (of) the hobby.


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## DJR (14/3/11)

geez...

SWEEPING GENERALISATION
RETORT
OFFENCE TO GENERALISATION
RETORT TO RETORT
BACKUP OF GENERALISATION WITH ANECDOTE
ATTEMPT TO DEFUSE SITUATION WITH HUMOUR
RETORT AT GROUP WHO RAISED GENERALISATION WITH ANOTHER GENERALISATION
OFFENCE AT GENERALISATION #2
ICE CREAM FOR ALL

Note: the ice cream may or may not occur

Do we all really worry about this stuff this much? It's beer...


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

I like ice cream...


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I like ice cream...



Just saying is all


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## bradsbrew (14/3/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I like ice cream...



Homeicecream or CraftIcecream.


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## michael_aussie (14/3/11)

chocolate with choc chips please.


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## lastdrinks (14/3/11)

I brew because if i am on my game i can brew beer as good as quality commerical beer and importantly I really enjoy the process. Brewing is a really cheap hobby when you compare it to cars, hi-fi, skiing etc etc even if you buy some off the shelf products.

All that said I think the debate whether it is craftbrew or homebrew is persona, but who caresl. Each too their own. I still get a little edgey when someone who hasnt tasted my homebrew/craftbrew tastes it, not that whatever their comment is will make too much difference to me brewing. To me it is just an issue of whenever someone critiques something i have such a passion for I can take it to heart. But f**k'em like brewing, can brew good and will continue to brew.

And yes i AG


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## Guysmiley54 (14/3/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Homeicecream or CraftIcecream.



I make all of my ice cream with real milk, cream, free-range eggs, sugar and vanilla beans not that kit stuff! It must be CraftIcecream (registered trademark pending)


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## DU99 (14/3/11)

:icon_offtopic: 
people tend to forget how they started brewing..majority of people would have started with can's and worked they way up..to ALL GRAIN..and in those steps mistakes have been made..even the big breweries make failures..i am just taking those steps at the moment..


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## Cocko (14/3/11)

At the end of the day, the beer I make is for me!

As much as a buzz it is to have someone else enjoy and comment positively on it, the bulk goes over my own taste buds, and I must say I have found the procedures and process that keep my taps flowing with beer that I enjoy more than anything I could buy.

So do I care what I call it, no.

Am I glad it is flowing - yes.

I brew for me.


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## bradsbrew (14/3/11)

I cant wait until this subject is brought up again next year and we can all self obsess once again.
:icon_cheers:


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## Bada Bing Brewery (14/3/11)

Let's just pause and think of the forgotten ones - the BIABers. Incidental reports suggest that many BIAB brewers suffer "middle child syndrome" .... can't play with the AG'ers, to old for the k&K crew ..... oh the humanity


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## bignath (14/3/11)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I make all of my ice cream with real milk, cream, free-range eggs, *sugar* and vanilla beans not that kit stuff! It must be CraftIcecream (registered trademark pending)



I'm trying real hard to subscribe to the Purity Law. I'm down to just Ice and Cream in my icecream......

Besides, a REAL CraftIcecream'er wouldn't use sugar or other adjuncts :wacko: that's just cheating.

Ice and Cream are both cheap enough. Just add more of that instead of cutting corners......

yes, i've been drinking...


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## Maxt (15/3/11)

DJR said:


> geez...
> 
> SWEEPING GENERALISATION
> RETORT
> ...



This is what AHB has become. It wasn't like this when I joined, and could possibly be the reason so many long term members are no longer here.
This used to be a site where people talked about beer and the trivial bitch baiting was kept to a minimum.

I can't talk though, I am also adding to the crap.

So vote 1 for more technical beer related talk.

BTW, loved the middle child BIAB idea. Perhaps BIAB is the Jan Brady of the brewing world?


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## Nick JD (15/3/11)

The word _Homebrew_ has be spoiled by people who got a can of goop from the supermarket and followed the directions on the enclosed leaflet in summer. 

So, Coopers _et al _actually wrecked it. So did all the other goop can manufacturers.

Most of them also sell commercial megaswill beer.

The conspiracy is OUTED! 

The only reason people drink crap megaswill is because it's actually _better_ than HOMEBREW! 

It's a PLOT, A PLOT I TELL YOU.


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## Xarb (15/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> K&K brewing is painting a wall. AG brewing is painting a picture.


If this is the case I've seen some walls that look nicer than some of my paintings! 

ha ha ha


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## unrealeous (15/3/11)

If shit would burn, this whole thread would be a serious fire risk.


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## esssee (15/3/11)

Just to clarify my original post.

I wasn't expecting to start spot fires of flame posts, only to get other peoples opinions of where the hobby is at.

I am reletively new to the scene, and have been doing K&K, but moving through Extract towards AG.

In other hobbies, the term craft adds a certain Nobility to the product, without having to be commercial.

Yes, we all brew at home, but I'm quite sure that there are those out there who's products are worthy of being called "Hand Crafted".

Steve.


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## SJW (15/3/11)

Welcome to the site Steve.


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## staggalee (15/3/11)

unrealeous said:


> If shit would burn, this whole thread would be a serious fire risk.



Sooner or later,after 5 pages of bullshit, someone was likely to post something sensible.....and there it is above, 5 pages condensced into 12 words. :lol:


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## Gormand (15/3/11)

Read pages 1,2 and 5 and... wow people sure can get uppity here cant they  Judging by the number of threads that I have seen go this way I am sure this has been posted before but I feel this comic sums it up
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

But back to the topic. My personal veiw of craft vs homebrew is that craft is a homebrewer that has gone commecial, they are the mom and pop store vs bunnings. But hey thats me and my crazy veiw. To me and to anyone I talk to about it then its homebrew, and if they dont want to try it because its homebrew and therefore crap then more for me. So far I havnt come across this yet, I work in a small business of about 15 people and between them and my friends all but a couple of people who dont drink beer at all (Im thinking of having them commited) have tried it, liked it, asked for more and some are consdiering covering the costs of materials and having me make a batch for them.

But to me it doesnt matter how technical I get(Moving to AG as soon as I can afford the burner), how many competitions I may enter (Which is likley to be 0) or how good my beer is to me and my friends it will still be homebrew to me, and it will still be tastier then then 90% of what I buy (Except for some of my weirder experiments).
And if I ever manage to open a brewery and sell beer that then makes me money, then I will class myself as a craftbrewer. And if I ever manange to make it big with my beer and take on the likes of CUB and such then I will class myself as a rich bastard.


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## Yob (15/3/11)

Mountain Goat started as a fermenter in his bathtub... :blink: 

[edit] I guess what im trying to say is surely a beer can be both...??? just because he now has several 2000lt jobbies.. or was that 4000lt... is it the ammount that is brewed or where it is brewed or who ends up drinking it? The terms are quite subjective to how you phrase the question

crafted homebrew?
:beer:


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## Brewing_Brad (16/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> I recently handed a mate a stubbie of my beer. He asked if it was homebrew and I said, no - it's beer.


I've said the same thing on many an occation.


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## mtodd (18/5/11)

I'm exhausted after reading this thread. What have I got myself into? :unsure:


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## yum beer (18/5/11)

Craftbrewer/craftbrew/craftbrewing are simply terms used to indicate that a beer, that is for all account and purposes no different to the stuff that comes out of the
megaswill breweries, is made by apparently small, possibly dodgy breweries that may or may not be set up in some guys garage/back shed/father-in-laws abandoned 
warehouse.
As long as the brewing industry in general can have the megaswilling public believe this then the small guys will always just be mass produced homebrew.

I craft beer in my garage and my kitchen, as such I have 2 Craft Breweries. I havent made home brew for quite a while...and enjoy my craft beer regularly.


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## Bribie G (18/5/11)

bradsbrew said:


> I cant wait until this subject is brought up again next year and we can all self obsess once again.
> :icon_cheers:






mtodd said:


> I'm exhausted after reading this thread. What have I got myself into? :unsure:


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## petesbrew (18/5/11)

I'm a homebrewer and I'm not ashamed to say so. (I am ashamed of some of my beers though, but it's all fun laughing about them)


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## yum beer (18/5/11)

Maxt said:


> If I couldn't make beer that was infinitely better than their woolworths brand lager fermented at 36degrees, well shucks, I'd sell all my gear and take up a new hobby.
> 
> Doing the BJCP course made me a beer snob. The reality is that an awful lot of homebrew/craftbrew is crap and flawed. If they asked for feedback, I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone their beer was terrible. If they didn't ask, I would find somewhere to tip it.
> 
> Life's too short to drink crap beer....even/especially if it's cheap!



Maxt, does it smell?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/5/11)

I homebrew - I'm not embarassed to say it. I am embarassed of some of the home brew that gives the "moonshine" reputation that home brew basically has.

Actually, interesting, I have this mate (the one who still hasn't got my STC1000 sorted - he's very disorganised) who occasionally benefits from my home brew (but won't again until my STC 1000 is done). He has a bloke he works with that has started to home brew.

I'm assuming this is the bloke who borrowed his van for a week (the van that has the STC 1000 that is still not done in it) and must have asked the question, and got the answer as to what the STC 1000 is.

This guy has now given a bottle of his wares to my mate. My mate is very afraid of it and hasn't opened it up. Whereas my home brew doesn't last more than a day (for less than 3 tallies) or a week (for more than 3 tallies) in his possession.

So this means that even my mate has a concept of moonshine home brew vs what I do. And that experience has something to do with it.

Goomba


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## petesbrew (18/5/11)

How many of you get asked if you go to "those brew on premises" places? Far out!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/5/11)

petesbrew said:


> How many of you get asked if you go to "those brew on premises" places? Far out!



Because _no one_ can make good beer without an expert around, so it must have been from a BOP.

Should just do a massive batch at CB one day, say "yes" and give them the address. Te he he.

I'm hanging to have another bottle of my new amber ale - sure as hell no BOP would ever produce such a frankenstein of a beer (or probably be even able to classify it).

Goomba


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## outbreak (18/5/11)

petesbrew said:


> How many of you get asked if you go to "those brew on premises" places? Far out!



I get that a fair bit actually. "Oh I do the same, I keep my Corona bottles and once a month me and the boys go down to *insert generic Brew on premises place here*" 

I don't really mind though, I just let them know that I brew from scratch using grains and hops. Most people then tell me they didn't realise beer was made from malted barley! It doesn't phase me. 

I believe these brew on premises places have their part in the industry. If the outlet brews a decent extract beer and prides themselves in quality, well its better than the money going to the large megaswill. Some people want a cheaper beer but don't have the time to make it themselves so these BOP are great for them.


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