# Do You Ever Question The Brewing Experts?



## PistolPatch (22/5/07)

I just wrote the following in another thread...



> The point I'm trying to make here is that everyone says you cannot produce identical beers on two different bits of equipment. I think this is a bit of mis-information stemming from the 'Adelaide test.' In that test, for a start, people were not using the same thermometers. How on earth they would expect to produce the same beer without calibrating their thermometers has me buggered for a start!
> 
> Sure, in some testing, different systems will play a part but for a lot of testing, different systems will not. (Having identical thermometers for example goes a long way to solving a lot of differences.) I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and will criticise a brewing god - Jamil. He says in an audio that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.
> 
> I have real problems with accepting that gospel. If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings. I heard no mention that this was done.



I've done wine-tasting courses in the past and been able to get varieties, regions and even vineyards correct but surely, in beer-brewing, one test should not be taken as gospel and certainly a lot of gospel out there is totally irrelevant to 99% of brewers.

I dunno!

Does anyone else really wonder where a lot of our brewing 'gospel' comes from?


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## SpillsMostOfIt (22/5/07)

In all respects I am at best an Agnostic - at worst an Atheist.

This tradition of mine in cynicism continues into brewing. I find that on many subjects, the experts often differ and that the consensus (and often the other major opinions) often don't work for me.

It's as much about me as it is everyone else, but when I can brew the same beer two or three times and you cannot tell the difference between them, I will consider myself on the path to expert-ness...


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## Steve Lacey (22/5/07)

Well, what it really comes down to is there a reason for it? A mechanism to explain a difference? Or is just an assertion as an article of faith?

Take the difference in evaporation rate example ... presumably this means that the boils were of differing intensity, or had different degrees of boiler enclosure ... could these things lead to differences in the end beer? Well, potentially, yes they could. Mailliard reactions and hop isomerization on the one hand, off-putting flavour compounds on the other. So there might be something to the guy's assertion that the beers were different. And if he has finely tuned palate, maybe those differences are very stark to him.

On other matters, we can theorize all day about why no-chill or BIAB is not supposed to produce good beer, but the theoretical mechanisms don't always hold up and/or are based on assumptions that don't apply at our scale.

So it just comes down to the application of the basic scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test it, decide whether the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis, if not modify the hypothesis and re-test, and so on. And don't take anything at face value. Look for the underlying explanation, decide if it sounds plausible, but test it for yourself.

This is probably a long way from what you were talking about Pat. I dunno, but it set me off on a mini-rant so there must have been something in your question.


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## Insight (22/5/07)

Pat, I think Jamil is saying that if you and I brew the same recipe using the same ingredients and methods on our systems, we will have different results. This is because of differences in a) burner capacity/boiloff, B) kettle shape/size, c) fermenter shape/size/temp control, d) yeast health and pitching rate, e) grain crush, f) water profiles, g) efficiency, h) etc....

Of course it is possible to brew the same beer on different kit - look at Anheuser-Busch. They have plants all over the US getting raw ingredients that may be different depending on source (particularly water) and they manage to turn out a consistent product. They even allows for seasonal changes in crops from year to year - this year's batch of hops may be significantly different from last year, but the brewers need to make the same product as last year.


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## Tony (22/5/07)

I think most of the "Good Word" on here comes from peolpes experiences PP!

Everyone is going to have different experiences and therefor different opinions on different subjects.

Thats why its a forum! you get lots of information and you can then go with that and pick out what you like the sounds of or what works best for you!

I dont think there are any "experts" on here.

I know i make good beer, i have comp trophies, but that doesnt make me a good brewer, just better that most others that entered the comp.

I know lots about brewing, i know more about beer after a few years of brewing in my garage than my dad who has worked in the beer industry for over 20 years, but i still find ideas and info on here every day that makes me stop and think about my methods or smoething new to try out.

I will never consider myself an expert.......... not at anything! There is always something to learn and someone who knows something that you can learn!

I have this attitude with everything in life.

PP .....i get a general gist in your posts lately that you are very sceptical of lots of things.

brew a beer you like and drink it dude 

cheers


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## MHB (22/5/07)

Mankind has been making beer (well Alcoholic beverages) since the Stone Age.
In the last 30 or 40 thousand years we have learned a thing or two, some of these are rules some are guidelines, some traditions and in there are opinions and growing knowledge of a process that is too complex to be defined.

My personal definition of brewing is:-

_Brewing is an artistic interpretation of a science._ 

A bit like architecture, concrete has very real, well understood limitations on what it can withstand in terms of loads and strains, thats engineering the shapes that can be made, within those constraints can be art.

Likewise with brewing; there are things we can't change, like the peak activity temperatures of Alpha and Beta Amylase. These are constraints within which we have to work, they are real and not subject to negotiation - or opinion. No point in trying its a waste of time.

Understanding the constraints and using them allows us to change the outcomes, to adjust the balance between fermentable and body building components; to create the beer we want. This is subject to personal preference, when we talk about the beer we want my opinion is as valid as that of a so called expert, because it is subjective.

Over the last couple of years I have been studying brewing formally and now have qualifications in brewing, do I know it all - hell no I'm just figuring out how little I do know and how much more there is to learn.

One guiding principal I have learned is:-

*Everything you do affects the beer.* 

MHB


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## InCider (22/5/07)

I make beer that I love and beer that I like. With beer I only like, I make it less, and try new things. With beer I love I make it even less frequently (but that choc mahog porter is the bloody Lorelei) and make beer for me in my shed. If there was a god, and he or she had any opinion on it, I still would not let them in my shed unless they were a brewer so we could talk brewere. I care not for reviews of commercial beers, but my reviews of my own beers. And I love it when the kind craftsmen of the Brewerhood have let me graze upon their great range of tasty ferments.

I like beer.  

maybe I should go and like some food... :blink:


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## PMyers (22/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> He says in an audio that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.
> 
> If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings.



I agree. In fact, I would go so far as to say if you are mucking around at that fine a level then you are either attempting to break into the professional circuit, or you are a wanker and have far too much time on your hands.

Cheers,
Pete

:chug:


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## Stuster (22/5/07)

Nope. Not me, sir. I let the big folks tell me what to do.






 


Actually, I think Steve hit the nail on the head. There is a lot of great information out there from the many excellent brewers who have laboured hard to produce great beer down the years, but ....



> So it just comes down to the application of the basic scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test it, decide whether the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis, if not modify the hypothesis and re-test, and so on. And don't take anything at face value. Look for the underlying explanation, decide if it sounds plausible, but test it for yourself.



Tony also made a sharp observation. Brew something you like, Pat, and drink it.  :chug: 

(maybe a no-lagered lager would be good and you can add some real data to my lagering thread :lol: )


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## Wortgames (22/5/07)

Question everything Pat, and believe nothing. Sacred cows are there to be eaten IMO.

One of the reasons the Aussie wine industry has dealt such a blow to the French (who have been making wine a lot, lot longer) is because the French had all these fixed rules and conventions. Their winemaking knowledge was developed over centuries of superstition and results that were never scientifically tested.

The Aussies start making wine, and virtually from day one they question everything. They experiment and research and sort the wheat from the chaff. This gives them a far stronger base from which to experiment, and they don't waste time and resources sacrificing virgins to appease gods that don't exist.

Experienced brewers are a great source of knowledge, but I don't think we should accept everything they tell us as gospel. Often people come to a conclusion that fits the evidence in their circumstances, and it becomes fixed in their mind as an irrefutable truth. Change the circumstances, however, and it may actually turn out to be a bit more complex (or simpler) than they gave it credit for.

You won't go far wrong from following the experts, but you won't break any ground or brew better beer without testing their assertions.


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## Kai (22/5/07)

Steve Lacey said:


> So it just comes down to the application of the basic scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test it, decide whether the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis, if not modify the hypothesis and re-test, and so on. And don't take anything at face value. Look for the underlying explanation, decide if it sounds plausible, but test it for yourself.



Werd.


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## Steve Lacey (22/5/07)

Kai said:


> Werd.



Thanks Kai. I have to admit, I didn't know whether you were paying me out or paying me a compliment. Thank goodness for Google.


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## PistolPatch (23/5/07)

Agh!!!!!

I wrote a post here earlier replying to each and every one of you up to Post #9. I spent at least an hour and a half writing that post and now it has gone. Wrote it at the start of the mash too so it made sense 

Kai, is there any way you can se if it hasn't dissapeared? It was bloody long and had heaps of compliments to all the above :angry:

P.S. So sorry guys, any other post I wrote tonight I could have done without. Spewing!


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## Kai (23/5/07)

Steve Lacey said:


> Thanks Kai. I have to admit, I didn't know whether you were paying me out or paying me a compliment. Thank goodness for Google.



Thank the lord for urbandictionary then eh? 

Pat, Sorry old man but mystery posts to the ether don't fall into my domain.


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## Thirsty Boy (23/5/07)

I suspect that most of the "gods" of brewing would be bloody horrified to be refered to as such, and even more horrified if they found out that you were taking their word as the unquestioned truth.

I can only imagine that those guys actually became figures of respect in the brewing world precisely because they were prone to thinking up knew interpretations of the standard brewing wisdom, trying it out and if/when it worked, sharing the joy.

Lets all be thankful that there is so much room for interpretation, or we would all be brewing exactly the same beers in exactly the same way.

That wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Thirsty


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## matti (23/5/07)

Sound like this topic ought to be at the "PUB" Lol
Any way.....
Regarding questioning the experts... 

No I don't!

I take everything with a pinch of salt, or gypsum for that matter, and try it out myself and make my own notes if it applies to me.

If a certain application of brewing works for many, let us say BIAB, and there is a lot of back up for it, then I might take it as truthful claim.

That is where the collective result(s) are presented and the majority of feed back is positive, which makes this *Forum* the expert Advicer and us as the contributors.

I alway joke about BIAB as the fore runner TEA beer.
Just boil the kettle and dunk your bag. Voila! wort. Chuck it on the soda machine....

PP and all cu


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## Barry (23/5/07)

Good Day 
A simple motto to follow is:
" Don't follow a home brewer's advice untill you have tasted their beers.""
Now this can't be done on forums but you do get feedback about people's beer, brewing and quality of advice etc. It is great to get all the ideas, home brewing is magic and fun so try the info/advice that you like.
I might brew two beers side by side and see what greater evapouration does (then I might not).


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## Maxt (23/5/07)

I also tend to most respect the word of brewers with awesome beers (plenty of those down here in the ACT).

What I do worry about is all the recycled info. For example a new member asks a question..a slightly more senior member offers advice (to the question they themselves asked a few months earlier). After a while the new member sees a post from a new guy asking the same question...and around it goes (bearing in mind that the info may be correct).
The internet is a great tool, but unless you challenge processes and ideas, you can end up just recycling the same stuff over and over.


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## yardy (23/5/07)

pp, 
man, you worry toooo much, if you're not careful you can turn a hobby into a chore, been there done it.

jmho
cheers
yard


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## KoNG (23/5/07)

Agreed..!
i think your over analysing everything a little too much....

That said, Jamil has won every award under the sun from my understanding, so he must be pretty cluey!
be careful PP or soon you may end up like Jamil, when you bottle your brew and get the missus to help, all workers have to scrub down, wear gloves/face mask and NO talking........


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## Jye (23/5/07)

Insight said:


> Of course it is possible to brew the same beer on different kit - look at Anheuser-Busch. They have plants all over the US getting raw ingredients that may be different depending on source (particularly water) and they manage to turn out a consistent product. They even allows for seasonal changes in crops from year to year - this year's batch of hops may be significantly different from last year, but the brewers need to make the same product as last year.



Anheuser-Busch do manage to put out the same beer time and time again but they still have variations between batches and blend them to get a consistent results. I have also heard they use something like 15 different hop varieties to minimise any yearly changes in individual crops.


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## warrenlw63 (23/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> I just wrote the following in another thread...
> I've done wine-tasting courses in the past and been able to get varieties, regions and even vineyards correct but surely, in beer-brewing, one test should not be taken as gospel and certainly a lot of gospel out there is totally irrelevant to 99% of brewers.
> 
> I dunno!
> ...



_ An iconoclast can be unpleasant company, but at least the modern iconoclast only attacks such things as ideas and institutions. The original iconoclasts destroyed countless works of art. Eikonoklastemacr.gifs, the ancestor of our word, was first formed in Medieval Greek from the elements eikomacr.gifn, "image, likeness," and -klastemacr.gifs, "breaker," from klamacr.gifn, "to break." The images referred to by the word are religious images, which were the subject of controversy among Christians of the Byzantine Empire in the 8th and 9th centuries, when iconoclasm was at its height. In addition to destroying many sculptures and paintings, those opposed to images attempted to have them barred from display and veneration. During the Protestant Reformation images in churches were again felt to be idolatrous and were once more banned and destroyed. It is around this time that iconoclast, the descendant of the Greek word, is first recorded in English (1641), with reference to the Byzantine iconoclasts. In the 19th century iconoclast took on the secular sense that it has today, as in "Kant was the great iconoclast" (James Martineau).

Verbose: Using or containing a great and usually an excessive number of words; wordy. See Synonyms at wordy. _Usually referred to as a Pistol Patch. :lol: 

Warren -


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## PistolPatch (23/5/07)

LOL Warren!

My brewing is still a hobby. Brewdays are easy and I don't worry about getting every tiny thing right. I know a lot of stuff isn't that important for most beers.

My writing is definitely becoming a chore though. I think I better go back to frivoulous posting.

:unsure: 
Pat


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## PistolPatch (23/5/07)

Here's the post I lost last night. I've got to stop this replying to everyone business!

Spills: Too right mate. Especially like your last sentence  I like trying to brew the same beer twice too. Some are easier than others eh?

Steve Lacey: Great to hear from you mate. A great post as usual and I must say that I'll never forget that PM you wrote on the differences, limitations and advantages between commercial and craft-brewing. One of the most inspiring and thought-provoking things I've read. I've passed that info onto lots of other people including Spills above and all of them found the same. Thanks mate.

Insight: You are absolutely right on being able to brew the same beer on different kits. It's not that hard to do for a lot of beers. Brad_G and I did it using different gear and brewing methods (batch and BIAB). Using the same thermometer and doing it side by side helps.

Tony: You are one of the guys on this forum whose advice I totally trust. You post heaps. You post your wins and your losses. Anything you say I respect. All this and the fact that you don't hold yourself up as an expert makes me think you are one of the real ones. As for the general gist of my posts lately, I think I just get dissapointed at how much mis-information, misplaced or misinterpreted information is out there. It makes it damn hard for new guys to find their way. Things are improving though and my current dissapointment will fade I'm sure.

Oh, and I've got 5 beers I like now on tap. Took a long time to find them though! Thanks mate!

MHB: I absolutely love your definition of brewing. Brilliant! If only people spelt out what was a rule and what was a guideline. How good would that be!

InCider: Mate you brew the best kit beer ever! I'm buggered if I know how you do it in the man shed but did I enjoy those ones we had there or what :super: I think your beer gets affected by your persona. That's gotta be it.

PMyers: LOL Pete! Top post!

Stuster: I love your posts! Where's your lagering thread? I want to see that one for sure. As mentioned above, I have 5 beers I really like but am still trying to crack an interesting lager that isn't too bitter. Some of my first brews were 'lagers' using an ale yeast. The bloody things took 3 months to come good - lol!

Spot ya,
Pat


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## Stuster (23/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> Where's your lagering thread? I want to see that one for sure.



Here ya go.  

Interesting that your ales-ners took so long to come good. What sort of off flavours were there? :unsure:


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## roger mellie (23/5/07)

WortGames said:


> Question everything Pat, and believe nothing. Sacred cows are there to be eaten IMO.
> 
> One of the reasons the Aussie wine industry has dealt such a blow to the French (who have been making wine a lot, lot longer) is because the French had all these fixed rules and conventions. Their winemaking knowledge was developed over centuries of superstition and results that were never scientifically tested.
> 
> The Aussies start making wine, and virtually from day one they question everything. They experiment and research and sort the wheat from the chaff. This gives them a far stronger base from which to experiment, and they don't waste time and resources sacrificing virgins to appease gods that don't exist.



?

Whats your point WG?

Are you saying that the Aussies questioned everything the frogs did - cherry picked the good bits - and made better wine? No - they made different wine.

The 'blow' to which you refer has more to do with cost of production than any other reason. Most French vineyards plots are measured in acres - not 100's of hectares. Good French wine is totally handmade - its a craft to them. 

I think there is a good analogy there - The French make the best wine because they have been very empirical and subsequently traditional about their methods. 


RM


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## Wortgames (23/5/07)

roger mellie said:


> Are you saying that the Aussies questioned everything the frogs did - cherry picked the good bits - and made better wine? No - they made different wine.


Actually, that's pretty close to the point I was making. Along with all that French 'tradition' is a fair amount of voodoo and sacred cow stuff which has simply been handed down and never really questioned. I guess a brewing analogy would be the various mashing steps that are basically defunct now that malt is fully modified before brewers get hold of it.

A lot of Aussie winemakers feel they have a freedom to experiment that French producers generally don't have, simply because the Aussies are generally more scientific, rather than superstitious, about many of the processes. That has led to the Aussies producing a wide variety of wines from the same grapes, and some of these wines have found enormous popularity and high acclaim around the world.



roger mellie said:


> The 'blow' to which you refer has more to do with cost of production than any other reason. Most French vineyards plots are measured in acres - not 100's of hectares. Good French wine is totally handmade - its a craft to them.


Scale is a factor, of course, but there is more to a good wine than it's price tag.



roger mellie said:


> I think there is a good analogy there - The French make the best wine because they have been very empirical and subsequently traditional about their methods.


The French make the best wine? A lot of wine drinkers and experts around the world might disagree with you. There's no doubt they make _some_ of the world's finest wines, but so do a lot of other countries, including Australia and New Zealand. I'm sure there's also an awful lot of bad wine available in France!

I love tradition and traditional methods, but I would never assume that all the answers have already been worked out in advance by somebody else, and that I should simply follow old methods without question.


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## Guest Lurker (23/5/07)

Burn the wine drinkers!


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## Wortgames (23/5/07)

Hey, I never said I actually DRINK the stuff... h34r:


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## Tony (23/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> Tony: You are one of the guys on this forum whose advice I totally trust. You post heaps. You post your wins and your losses. Anything you say I respect. All this and the fact that you don't hold yourself up as an expert makes me think you are one of the real ones. As for the general gist of my posts lately, I think I just get dissapointed at how much mis-information, misplaced or misinterpreted information is out there. It makes it damn hard for new guys to find their way. Things are improving though and my current dissapointment will fade I'm sure.



Ahhhh mate i can understand your disapointment but i think with so many different opinions on different subjects out there you need to be able to pick the cream from the crap!

And them the crap may not be crap............ its just not relivent to you and your situation.

There are so many variables that affect what we do. It makes it difficult. Thats why i am a firm believer in the "change one thing at a time" method of experimentation. you dont need to make identical beers time after time, but evperiment with things to see what effect thay have and record them....... Im sure you already do.

I can understand your thinking on the duel brewery thing but i dont think its really necessary.

I make a lot of beers with a simple 95% base malt/5% wheat or caramalt formula. Changing the hops will give me different flavor and aroma but i will maybe try adding a couple of teaspoons of CaCl to the mash and sparge and see how it goes. Then i will try it with gypsum or adjust my mash temp to see what effect it has.

another thing that comes to mind is water chemistry!

I have posted a lot about how i adjust my water in tamworth to try to overcome chill haze. I bought pH meters and found my tap water was high pH and needed acidifying to help the pale beers get to the desired pH level.

Now that i have moved to the hunter valey, its a different kettle of fish. The water has a lower pH and is much much softer. I find i can mash in with a 100% pilsner malt grist and hit 5.4 pH where as in tamworth it was more like 6.1  

so all my advice on water treatment was right...................... for me............... but not for people with different water.

Its what works for you in this game so i have come to the conclusion to come to my own conclusions and educate myself. any info from others is always considered false till tested and proved. and filtering the good info that may work comes with experience  

I will stop rambling now.

cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (23/5/07)

I love the spirit of the brewers who hang around here. Some of these posts are great.

I want to play a little devils advocate though. And maybe its appropriate that I do so, seeing as it seems that it was partly my regurgitation of brewing "wisdom" regarding boil off rates that kicked off Pat's train of thought in this thread.

All the "spirit of adventure", "experiment and find out for yourself" type stuff is fantastic and I agree up to the hilt, for myself. But maybe its not that attractive a prospect for everybody.

Some brewers might just not be all that adventurous and simply want a good solid set of instructions about how to brew a good beer. I say hand them a copy of Palmer's How to Brew or Papazian's Complete Joy, tell then to have faith in the experts and set them off. Fairly good chance that they will go out and make themselves some mighty fine beer.

Some brewers might be just plain new and need some nice expert derived rules to get them going. Once they are off and running they might well turn into brewng revolutionaries, but they will start from the same set of basic lore. I suggest that most, if not all of the brewers who have contributed to this thread fall or at least once fell; loosely into this second category.

I will fall back to the example of evap rates. _Please dont get me wrong, I'm not defending my particular position of that subject and I really dont want to re-start a discussion about it here, its serves merely as a recent example._

The advice I gave about aiming for an evaoration rate of 15% or less was entirely based on the advice of "experts" I myself have neither ever boiled at a significantly higher rate, nor have I enough actual experience to state categorically that a higher rate would adversely effect even my own beer, let alone someone elses.

So why would I simply regurgitate the 15% concept as touted by others? Because I thought (and still think) that it was good *advice*. I have learned and read and talked a lot about brewing in the last couple of years. I have noted from several different, seemingly respectable sources the notion that boil off rates should for a variety of reasons be somewhere between 8 & 15% Outside that range might well hurt your final beer. Conversely I had never come accross a reference that suggested that boiling at those rates could be bad for your brew. Sure, I had heard plenty of homebrewers talk about boil off rates that were higher and who were still brewing good beer, but the opposite is also true.

So I see a newer brewer talking about his process, I note that his boil off rate is in the 30+% range. A range which I know could, not will but _could_, effect the quality of his beer. So I pipe up, trot out the "advice of the experts" and try to steer him towards a rate of boil off that is in what should be, the no argument zone.

Hell, if he had said he had decided to not boil at all and was simply holding his wort at 98C for an hour, would there have been an ensuing philosophical debate about the value of expert opinion?? I think that I would have simply been a few down the list of people who were handing out "you cant do that" type advice. I dont beleive for a second that there would have been anyone suggesting that he should give it a go and see what happens. But why not?? You could make beer that way for sure. Its just that the "expert opinions" the "common wisdom" etc etc would say that it was probably going to be _crappy_ beer.

And they would be right....... clever experts. I say listen to them!!! Listen to all of them. Then shove your brain into gear and use it to extract the value.

In the meantime, I will continue to be more than happy to hand out advice based on my distillations of the common wisdom. The vast majority of it is going to be quite good advice. And when its not, there will be no shortage of differing opinion.

Aint life grand

Thirsty


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## PistolPatch (24/5/07)

Thirsty you better keep up with your advice. Like Tony, you are another one whose opinion I do respect. For example, after reading your post on evaporation rates, I tried my last 3 brews at a much slower rate.

The problem is, I don't think I will have the skills to tell the difference! I suspect that this will be one of the million things way above my level.

I started this thread, off the cuff, and had a heap of things rolling around in my head at the time.

Maybe, like the wine tasters, some of these beer guys do have the ability to detect minor differences *and* the cause of them. But even if they can, it's still hard work for a beginner to work out whether to listen to say Noonan, who says a vigorous boil is needed or Jamil who is saying you don't. I would tend to trust Jamil on this as he says he used to do vigorous boils so I know that he has tried both.

I also think there are a lot of brewers out there who concentrate on the wrong level for their brewing experience. I've tasted beers from guys that talk all about very advanced brewing areas (areas that only have a small result on taste though) and their beers are not even balanced.

For me, too much time on here has taught me who gives good advice and who doesn't. Better still, as Barry said, I've managed to taste quite a few people's beers and know the ones that I think are well-made and that I enjoy.

I'm very much with Tony on the changing one thing at a time method. so I'm bloody excited about being able to shortly easily do some side by side brews. At my level, it's going to be excellent trying out what for others will be very basic stuff. And, as I'll be doing it with my brother-in-law, the splitting of the beer between us means we can try different things twice as fast.

I'm definitely getting my own grain, mill and scales too. I have no idea what scales they are using in the shop over here but one of my brews hit over 100% efficiency on the weekend! This makes any sort of side by side testing a little hard 

LOL
Pat

P.S. Really enjoyed the other posts here too but I've got to learn not to reply to everyone individually :wacko: I'll get back to you Stuster on the 'no lager' lagers thingo within the next few days though in your thread. Spot!


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## Kai (24/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> Maybe, like the wine tasters, some of these beer guys do have the ability to detect minor differences *and* the cause of them. But even if they can, it's still hard work for a beginner to work out whether to listen to say Noonan, who says a vigorous boil is needed or Jamil who is saying you don't. I would tend to trust Jamil on this as he says he used to do vigorous boils so I know that he has tried both.



I would trust Noonan before I trusted Jamil, but most of all I would trust myself and my own brewery.


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## tangent (24/5/07)

remember the old old post Jeebus wrote my brew book?
the thought comes around again and again
just make some beer


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## matti (25/5/07)

Spinning on noonan and alike.

I followed Noonans latest edition on how to brew lager beer last year and I created the best lager brew I ever managed to brew. 
Although the recipe may need tweaking as I use an ag recipe for a partial.

To comment on vigourous boil
l I would say that it is necessary to have a rolling boil with the lid off for at least 3/4 of end of boil to ensure to fully achieve the benefits.

I think that Noonan may be a bit too technical for the starter in brewing.
And if your chemistry knowledge is minimal or none, it is the process he advocates that is essential to brewing great lager beers.

To go with another publishers John Palmer method is probably easier as long as you can put up with his private antedotes. 

I intend to go with these guys as an authority as their method a proven and can create great beers.

Now I look forward to purchase an edition of BIAB by PistolPatch very soon though.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (25/5/07)

I suppose that in any endeavour, there is the 'correct' way of doing it and the way that some of the 'experts' do it. I don't think that any driving instructor whose aim is to get some 18-year old their driver's license would be teaching hand-brake turns or that wiggy heel-toe accelerator-brake thing.

So, when a newcomer arrives and asks about their first kit beer, we (usually) don't launch into a discussion of pressurising kegs at room temperature: we take a deep breath and recite the mantra of temperature control, kit yeast and satin underwear...

This is good. This is the bit where the Intraweb thingy is really of value.

The bad bit is not beer/brewing specific. The bad bit is just part of humanity, but amplified by the aforementioned Wide Wild Wonderful Web. 

Tony mentions that he follows a basic common-sense scientific principle when he brews - change one thing at a time. Anyone who has worked in an (IT) engineering realm knows this is rule #2 and that on the basis of this one thing, Tony gets extra Trust Points.

In contrast [nick-name with-held] who posts a lot on [forum-name with-held] offers advice to people quite routinely. His posts are cogent and well (enough) written and to the casual observer constitute good advice. However, after some investigation, it seems to me that he may not have ever drunk a beer, let alone brewed one. His Trust Points have long since been transferred elsewhere.

Both good Tony and dork [nick-name with-held] have high post counts and - on the surface - appear to be good blokes. How do you know who to follow? Until you've been around long enough to know who you can trust, you have a problem.

"The use of white cane sugar leads to apple-cider like off flavours." I have read lots of people saying this all over the planet. Some of them seemed respectable enough. Some of them had (almost) as many Trust Points as Tony. I've used sugar in some of my beers and they are not noticeably cidery. I understand that there is a fairly successful brewery in South Australia that uses a fair bit of cane sugar and they make *beer* (as opposed to cider). I don't think the Belgians are respected for their ciders.

So, we can get bad advice from dorks who just like posting stuff to discussion forums; we can get it from experienced and knowledgeable individuals who are just plain wrong and we can get it from biblical teachings that are also just plain wrong. And, to top it all off, the experts change their minds! (Mr Palmer and his attitude to racking.)

This is all different to ensuring the message is crafted to the audient as I suggested when I commenced this rant. I guess that every time I brew (which I should be doing right now), I make another raft of mistakes - some of which I will learn from - and be able to shuffle some Trust Points around, but also I am gaining experience and getting closer to attempting my first hand-brake turn. Doesn't mean that I will recommend doing the hand-brake turn to all and sundry.


I remain an atheist and I beseech you to burn all the experts!!!


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## datamike (27/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> I just wrote the following in another thread...
> Sure, in some testing, different systems will play a part but for a lot of testing, different systems will not. (Having identical thermometers for example goes a long way to solving a lot of differences.) I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and will criticise a brewing god - Jamil. He says in an audio that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.
> 
> I have real problems with accepting that gospel. If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings. I heard no mention that this was done.
> ...



I just found this forum thanks to a posting on the Brewing Network forum. I am from a Chicago suburb.
Let me just say that you Aussies rock! There is some seriously great information on the board from the BIAB (brilliant!) to the No Chill method. Great stuff! And I really love the fact that some of you guys are questioning everything about homebrewing. Congrats!

Pistol, you make a number of really wonderful points. There is so much misinformation, myths, legends and yes, even disinformation when it come to brewing it boggles the mind. Consider the old truism that using sucrose (table sugar here in the states) will give beer a cidery flavor. I am guessing that this stems from old canned kits that suggested supplementing the included malt syrup with over 50% sugar. But I am just guessing... I can tell you that I use table sugar up to about 20% in many of my Belgian ales and have never detected a cidery flavor. Duvel, Chouffe, Huyge and many other Belgian brewers do the same.

It's hard to argue with Jamil Z's record. He's won tons of awards and is generally regarded as a brewing expert, but..... he's driving me nuts on that net radio show. It basically boils down to a couple of reasons:
He states his personal opinions as though they are hard, fast, proven and tested facts ("complex grain bills are the way to go for Belgian ales"; most native Belgian ales use very simple bills as stated in many books, including Brew Like A Monk, and confirmed personally by visits to several Belgian breweries.) 
He states "facts" with no data to back them up ("Belgian ales should only attenuate 70-75%"; really high attenuation is part and parcel of native Belgian ales. Most are highly attenuated and I can't think of any less than 80%. Belgian brewers call this "digestibility".)
Check out the show regarding Belgian Strong Dark ales for examples of these. There's been more than a few pub discussions about Jamil in some cases seeming to distribute disinformation.....

The bottom line is: listen to everyone, read everything, then do your own testing and draw your own conclusions!

Cheers from the states!
Michael


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## Thirsty Boy (28/5/07)

I know I know, I'm starting to sound like an appologist for Jamil. Not really my intention, because I dont think he needs appologising for, but I just cant help resonding...

First - datamike. great first post. welcome to the forum.

But... the things that are irritating you about Jamils radio show. Well, I'm not going to tell you what should and shouldn't irritate you. However you are either mis-stating or mis-hearing (some of) the things that Jamil says.
_
"He states his personal opinions as though they are hard, fast, proven and tested facts ("complex grain bills are the way to go for Belgian ales"; most native Belgian ales use very simple bills as stated in many books, including Brew Like A Monk, and confirmed personally by visits to several Belgian breweries.)"_

He doesn't say that, he gives his recipe for a Dark Strong. Then explains why it is formulated with a complex rather than a simple grain bill. Explains that traditionally belgians use simple grain bills; and gives you a hint about how you might go about brewing the beer if you decide that you would rather go with a simple grain bill than his version.

_"He states "facts" with no data to back them up ("Belgian ales should only attenuate 70-75%"; really high attenuation is part and parcel of native Belgian ales. Most are highly attenuated and I can't think of any less than 80%. Belgian brewers call this "digestibility".)"_

Well, he says that his recipe will attenuate to around 75%... but thats it. He doesn't say that belgians should be attenuated to only 75% just that thats where his recipe will go. Then he goes on to stress the notion that belgian ales should finish out dry and talks at length about the importance of using simple sugars to achieve the dry finish.

So, at the risk of being a little impolite to a new poster, maybe the problem is less what Jamil says, than that you aren't listening as carefully as you might. Maybe in other episodes he does exactly the things you talk about, but the examples you gave are basically wrong. sorry.

And besides, its called the *Jamil Show *for pete's sake... who's opinions do you think you are going to get?? The whole point of the show is that you want to learn how Jamil brews the beer being discussed. If thats not what you want, why are you listening. It cant be *dis*information, its information about how Jamil brews. End of story. As for backing his facts up with data, in the instance of Belgian ales.... well in the Belgian Strong Ale category he won a siver in the biggest brewing competition on the planet, then the next year followed it up with a gold. That'll do me for data to back up his opinions. It doesn't make him infallible, but it does add a certain weight to his opinion.

The thing is... one of the points that has been discussed in this thread is the notion of trying things for yourself, and/or weighing up different opinions and distilling your own opinion out of them. But when Jamil does that. Then shares the "different" method that he has found to be successful... then he is distributing disinformation. Not a differing opinion... disinformation.


Having said that, I can see how Jamil might shit you if you listen to a show in isolation and all you hear is a bunch of stuff that sounds suss to you, with nothing but his say so to assure you that they aren't just bullshit. I can also see how his personal style could drive you nuts.

Anyway, now that I've had a chip at you and ranted because you dared critisise my personal pet brewing deity  again, welcome to the forum. and I do very much agree with your listen, read and try everyone/everything bottom line. Well said.

Thirsty

Edit: Not posting to this thread anymore (much to everyones releif I am sure) I'm starting to sound like a bloody evangelist and I'm shitting even myself. Appologies.


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## bconnery (28/5/07)

Threads like these bring to mind the old quote "I disagree completely with everything you say. But will defend to the death your right to say it"

Given the manner in which I have seen some "debates" undertaken on some other forums recently it is nice to see different sides of a point offering opinions and advice without getting too personal. 

OT, I feel constantly in this hobby that if you want absolutes, you are in the wrong game...

The web only enhances information overload it is up to us to filter it, find what works for us personally etc. 

I don't think I could even count the number of times someone has said 'you can't do x' and someone else has said they do it constantly. 

Even basics that are so important like temp control and sanitation have wide variation in methods. 

Not a wonder this whole home brewing thing takes up so much of my time!

Ain't it grand


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## PistolPatch (29/5/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I know I know, I'm starting to sound like an appologist for Jamil.
> First - datamike. great first post. welcome to the forum.
> Edit: Not posting to this thread anymore (much to everyones releif I am sure) I'm starting to sound like a bloody evangelist and I'm shitting even myself. Appologies.


On the first sentence - wrong.
On the second sentence - correct.
On the last sentence - wrong again

Before I get to you Thirsty, can I say welcome to datamike as well. I reckon that was a brilliant first post on this forum and I hope that mike posts a heap more. The way that you have written datamike, shows that you don't mind expressing an opinion and by the style of your writing, I'm guessing that if you ever found yourself to be wrong you wouldn't mind being corrected either. That's the sort of attitude that is tops and that bconnery referred to in his post above. (Ben's post, like many here already, I think is worthy of heaps of thought.)

Anyway datamike and ben, I loved your posts and I've actually really enjoyed reading nearly all of the posts above. Not often you get the priviledge of that in a single thread.

Let's get to Thirsty now 

Thirsty, you are not sounding like an apologist for Jamil and you are not sounding like an evangelist.

You need to post a lot more. The posts that I have seen you do have had a large impact on me and others. Often large impact posts get no replies because, 'What can one say?'

You're a hard bugger to reply to because you always make sense.

I'm trying to think of any post I have seen of yours that I disagree with and can only think of one. After some communications between us, I now think you are right and you now think I am right - lol! (We really need to work that one out!)

I say you need to post a lot more because, as I have said to you recently in private communications, the stuff you have directly sent me is brilliant stuff and totally informative. It's such a shame to see it hidden away.

I reckon datamike and everyone here reading this thread would really enjoy and appreciate the wealth of knowledge you have sent me personally. The way you write to me is in a style everyone loves.

Don't hide your talent away Thirsty. I know it's bloody hard writing stuff here sometimes. Like me, you write long posts. I delete or severely edit my long posts that are badly written, uninformative, off-topic or non-sensical at the earliest opportunity  The occassional good post I do gets left here and often gets no replies. I find out months later that one thing I wrote made sense to one brewer. That's good and I love that! (It's not as bad as I make it out to be - bullshitting here! I usually get thanked pretty soon for the occassional good advice I might give privately if not publicly  Your stuff is a tad more advanced and thought-provoking though.)

What I'm saying to you is write more and *never* delete what you write. Too much value there.

Now, I had actually prepared an essay on my opinion of some well-known brewing experts but I think that can wait until tomorow  It's a pretty scary, high-risk post so I certainly don't mind waiting another day - lol.

Does anyone else totally appreciate Thirsty's posts or is it just me? I know a heap of you do so, for God's sake, send him a PM or better still, post here.

This is PistolPatch, who I think is now in serious trouble from Thirsty! (He's going to hate this post!)

But, he deserves the attention.

Don't you agree?

What's that saying? For evil to triumph requires good men to do nothing.

Probably the same when it comes to brewing advice.

Spot,
Pat


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## bayWeiss (29/5/07)

The way I look at it is as follows. 

1. I do not want to reinvent the wheel. 

2. Like any science or art, you read up on the past, see what the experts say or did, follow them, maybe try to emulate them, and then make your product or craft your own after you have become pretty good at what you are doing. For example, Michalangelo and DaVinci were apprenticed/trained in their craft for a good while, by some masters/mentors, but then kinda branched out on their own (or put their particular styles/twists/creativity into it) to become better or more recognizable than their masters. This does not mean that their masters were wrong in what they taught them, it just means that the true geniuses used the foundation they learned to make brilliant pieces.

Now, could the true geniuses have made their masterpieces without the classical training? I am not sure... I tend to think not, but there are always exceptions.

3. History books, recipe books, guide books all exist for a reason. They exist to present a collection of work done by someone to present to you for the purpose of your consumption, and on the idea that they are mostly accurate. This allows society to bootstrap itself and advance. Without history/guides/etc, people would never learn and society would not progress. 

Since my homebrewing career is fairly short lived compared to almost all of the experts out there, I look at what they say as pretty much correct, until my experience proves them wrong. The advice and recipes that I have followed so far from Denny Conn, John Palmer, and Jamil Zainasheff et al. have allowed me to brew faster, with more confidence, and better, than what I think I would have been able to do without them. 


On the post above about Jamil... I personally do not take what he says as gospel, but, since he has won SO MANY awards, I have to take what he says very seriously. I find also (from listening to almost every single Jamil Show), that he seems to be pretty humble, and does not come across to me as someone who says that what he says are hard facts. I think quite the opposite, when Jon P. says something stupid (it happens a lot), most of the time Jamil will disagree, ad say "WELL......."......... which I take as meaning that he is disagreeing, and that what he comes across as saying is his opinion, and not a hard fact.

:beer:


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## therook (29/5/07)

I have gotta agree with PP, Thirsty you need to post more as everything i have read of yours makes sense and if it doesn't well i'm not going to loose any sleep over it, after all its only a bloody hoby. isn't this a public forum?????????? sometimes i wonder.

Thirsty keep posting, keep being imformative but most of all keep being yourself as this is what its all about.

 

rook


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## FNQ Bunyip (29/5/07)

Yep Pat's right (shit) Thirsty buddy don't go and leave us here. 

Your posts are not only well writen but very informative and thought provocing, The boil info you sent Pat has caused me to spend quite some time yesterday going back though brew records and notes.
It has allso caused me to order a 4th fermenter so I can brew again this week to try out a lot slower boil.

Thanks for the time you have taken to post here , I know how much time AHB can take out of a day , but if the posts are helpfull such as yours its time well spent. 

:beer:


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## SpillsMostOfIt (29/5/07)

I've just re-read what the Thirsty Boy has written in this thread and I can find nothing wrong with it. It's always good to read stuff that is contemplative and not simply rehashed folklore.

For the record, Thirsty Boy gets Trust Points from me. The beer he makes *at home* is quite impressive.

We need people who write long posts to balance the stuff of PP's I have to read...


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## domonsura (29/5/07)

I've read through, and thirsty's posts make sense to me as well!

My perspective is - you show me an expert and I'll question him. For whatevever reason, an expert is only an expert until another expert comes along. and another, and another.
Stop questioning the way things are done, and you will never find a better way, and evolution stops. cold. No new ways of doing anything, no new products, no nice suprises, _and no finding out the hard way that that is *not* the way to do things._ (which is how I seem to find out....)

There are a million different ways to skin a cat, I'm pretty good at my way, not so good at others. But I always like to see how others do it, ad if I can take part of their method and adapt it to fit in my cat skinning routine.
Never trust a cat skinner until you've seen his furcoat and the shape of his knife.

PS. No cats were harmed in the writing of this post.


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## Stuster (29/5/07)

I'm another joining the group hug for Thirsty and Jamil. :lol: 

You clearly have a love of brewing, lots of knowledge about it and a great questioning attitude. I'm with PP. Post more.  

datamike, I don't really think you are right about Jamil. He's fairly sure that his way is a good way, I'll give you that, but I think he often mentions other ways to do things and in his posts I've seen on different sites he's a fairly easy going guy who doesn't appear to take himself too seriously. He's certainly goes out of his way to help other brewers. I've learned a lot from his shows and his recipes are interesting. But as you say



> The bottom line is: listen to everyone, read everything, then do your own testing and draw your own conclusions!



A good motto to live by. Hopefully you'll keep posting on the forum here as well. Welcome.


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## matti (29/5/07)

Start a show, write a book or even a radio show Thirsty.
I wish I had more time to dwell on these posts, but being a father of three young boys, I think I am doing rather well.
I am not going to take side or even try to revive this debate.

I just think that great minds "can" make great beer. and I only wish I had a fraction of what you "god" brewers have.
Meaning, time, space and oodles of ideas.

Meant to say heaps more but my two year old wants my attention who Roo
thanks


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## Doogiechap (29/5/07)

What a fantastic thread and I think it sums up how the members of this forum can OPENLY discuss opinions with the knowledge that they are entitled to their opinion but won't necessarily be flamed to a crisp. Obviously that does happen on occasion but then we are human and some are prone to forruming under the influence too h34r: . 
Blokes like Thirsty and PP (and Jamil for that matter) are probably more prone to getting the rough end of the stick as they take the time to thoroughly explore topics which gives a greater target to sling c#*p. FWIW chaps, thanks for challenging brewing folklore and for enabling us with info to ultimately MAKE BETTER BEER ! 
I have gained soooo much knowledge from this forum, the people who have 'taken one for the team' deserve a medal for publicising their mistakes so we can learn without going through the same motions. I think BC nailed it when he said "The web only enhances information overload it is up to us to filter it, find what works for us personally etc." 
We all get to know whose statements we can rely on and those that we smile at. It's what makes things interesting !
Happy brewing everyone.
Cheers
Doug


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## Kai (29/5/07)

bayWeiss said:


> On the post above about Jamil... I personally do not take what he says as gospel, but, since he has won SO MANY awards, I have to take what he says very seriously



No comments on Jamil, since I have never listened to any of his podcasts and only looked at a few of his online submissions. However, winning lots of awards does not automatically mean a person gives good advice to the average homebrewer.

Beyond that I agree with your post, if I can sum it up as "Know the rules, then break them".


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## Tony (29/5/07)

datamike said:


> The bottom line is: listen to everyone, read everything, then do your own testing and draw your own conclusions!



:super: :chug:


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## InCider (29/5/07)

Beer is the winner on the day and Beer could not have done it without Thirsty - it's a chicken/egg thing.  

3 Cheers for Beer that's thirsty! :beerbang: 

3 Cheers for Thirsty's beer! :beerbang:


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## Screwtop (29/5/07)

InCider said:


> Beer is the winner on the day and Beer could not have done it without Thirsty - it's a chicken/egg thing.
> 
> 3 Cheers for Beer that's thirsty! :beerbang:
> 
> 3 Cheers for Thirsty's beer! :beerbang:




Just because I feel like changing this Faaarrrking Topic - Want some Habanero's Sean, returned home to a shitload on the bushes today. Swap for some sauce or jam.


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## InCider (29/5/07)

Screwtop said:


> Just because I feel like changing this Faaarrrking Topic - Want some Habanero's Sean, returned home to a shitload on the bushes today. Swap for some sauce or jam.


G'day Michael,

It would be grand to take some off you hands seeing as you're offering. The last Habanero sauce I made is too hot now that it has fermented a little... I need some hot ones to use for a new sauce and this time mix them up a bit with some other fruits/veg/hops! Egads! Epiphany! Hops Habanero Sauce! AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

I will see you before the week is out to discuss! 

Too excited to speak! Hops + Chillies! Time to google... and find that other thread...

InCider...


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## PistolPatch (29/5/07)

Looks like Screwtop is back - lol! Excellent.

There you go Thirsty. Lots of positive proof that you shouldn't be apologising for your posts in the slightest. Top stuff!

Hey Doogie, on the occassion I do get the rough end of the stick, I usually deserve it  It's the undeserved ones that throw me :wacko: Anyway it doesn't happen too often though it might after my next question!

While we are discussing experts, one question I have, and it is just a question, is why books such as New Brewing Lagers and Designing Great Beers are recommended so much to new AGers?

I bought both these books and have found them, at my stage of brewing, to be quite unhelpful. Some things in them strike me as pretty weird. For example, in New Brewing Lagers, when I do go to look up something that I would expect top be in such a book it's either not there or the information is sparse or even impractical for the home brewer. I remember having this problem when looking up diacetyl rests.

In Designing Great Beers I was astounded that the hop measurements were given in grams with no indication of the alpha acid rating. I asked about this before on the forum but never received a satisfactory reply. This put me off a bit, though I can see this book gaining more relevance to me sooner rather than later.

Good to see that you had some benefit from Noonan matti. Hopefully down the track I'll get some too. I just find these strange books to recommend to beginners. Am I missing something obvious here?

Cheers guys,
Pat


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## Brewtus (29/5/07)

Thirsty, I'm with you.

I figure in life you can learn by your mistakes, or better still learn by others mistakes. If you just learn and don't know about or understand the mistakes that can be made than it is time to start making them again because the underlying conditions may have changed and to do something may no longer be a mistake. This is the fundamental way to evolve things.

Keep posting or I'll send the boys 'round...


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## matti (30/5/07)

PP
Forgive me if I ever recommended it to a beginner as it has the more technical aspect of brewing lager beer in a topical manner.

I would never recommend this to a novice.

I consider myself at the beginning of intermediate and find there are definitely no absolutes in brewing beer.

I merely think it is a great book in understanding the principals of the chemistry in brewing and to use it as a reference has assisted me a lot.

Brewing AG can be as simple or as hard as you like.

I want to know as much as my brain can store and comprehend prior making the leap to AG and lager beers.

I would hate to waste $40-120 in ingredient and several hours producing a beer that I don't want to drink.

I agree that the Rest issue was a little bit confusing at the beginning but after brewing 2-3 lager you'll get the hang of it.

Read a recent thread and Zwickel got some great ideas but also very technicial lol


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## SpillsMostOfIt (30/5/07)

Regarding the sub-discussion blooming between matti and PistolPatch...

People learn and absorb things in different ways and in different sequences.

I used a gift voucher to purchase Designing Great Beers and have read most of it to date (I don't currently care about black beers or bears, so haven't looked at that) and found it to be really useful. But, I don't find myself referring to it as much as I expected to in the beginning. Ditto Brew Like a Monk - which I would whole-heartedly recommend to anyone wanting to grow their obsession into the area of those crazy Belgians. The online version of How To Brew got read a lot, but I found the AG stuff to be of only passing interest.

Once I experienced the AG thing via the BIAB process, that was enough for me to work through the questions it raised and get me to where I am today (where-ever the fork that is!). Answers came from all over the place - this and other discussion forums, web sites, books; some I just pulled out of my own arse. I probably could have never read HTB or DGB and got to the same place.

My mind works in a particular way and I address problems or issues as I encounter or expect them. Everyone else here does the same thing, but the order and timeframe will be different.


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## Weizguy (30/5/07)

G'day.
Seth here, jumping on the bus after it's already left the station.

I remember my accepting attitude of brew wisdom when I first discovered that the internet had "beer recipe archives".
I consumed numerous books and downloaded many recipes. It only took me a little while to brew a few and discover that there is some misguided or downright misleading brew info on the web.
As a scientist, I believe that it's best to approach the experiment with an open mind and then form your opinion based on the result.

I also discovered early, that my local water works well with wheat beer, which in turn is quite agreeable to my palate.

If I hadn't believed in the "Scientific method", I wouldn't have tried to brew a Berliner Weisse or a Gose.

That brings me to my next point: Recipes in BYO magazine. I have found these, after initial cautiousness, to be quite a good source of material to base a beer upon. However, and I'm sure a few of you could back me up here, Never take their information as gospel. Yes, they have internationally recognised beer authors creating material for them, and now the much-lauded Jamil, but they sometimes have serious errors in the proof-reading or fact-verification of the articles. I have emailed them about it several times and got no reply. They must be busy doing something else.
So always take the info with a grain of salt (or 1/3 of a cup, for the Gose recipe) and modify to what you think is right.

It takes a little while to recognise what others with more experience see as "common sense". I'm sure I could go on and on, Pistol-Patching (spot ya, Pat) about how common sense is not common at all.

Allow me to wind up by stating that you should form your own conclusions, even if you have base them on someone else's initial work.
And further to Testify, always Testify!
Even if you make a mistake, pls save someone else from the same...

Beerz
Seth


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## lucas (30/5/07)

PistolPatch said:


> In Designing Great Beers I was astounded that the hop measurements were given in grams with no indication of the alpha acid rating. I asked about this before on the forum but never received a satisfactory reply. This put me off a bit, though I can see this book gaining more relevance to me sooner rather than later.


PP, all the numbers in DGB are averages and statistics of place getters in competitions. in order to get a useful overview of things you sometimes needs to lose some details. I can't imagine they would be very useful stats if they went along these lines

"2.8% of 2nd round winners in the APA section used 40g of cascade (5.5%aa), 2.8% of 2nd round winners used 38g of cascade (5.4%aa), 2.8% of 2nd round winners used 38g cascade (5.4%aa).... etc etc"

there's just too much detail to gather the more useful piece of information that 80% of APAs used between 30-40g of cascade. 

some of the time (heck, when you're learning id goes as far as saying MOST of the time) less is more. too much detail only clouds the message. it's not until after you understand the message that extra detail is going to be helpful.


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## Steve Lacey (30/5/07)

lucas said:


> there's just too much detail to gather the more useful piece of information that 80% of APAs used between 30-40g of cascade.



Not to mention the fact that most hop varieties do not vary that much in alpha acid percentage. Or put another way, you can easily look up typical values for a variety and assume that is about what the recipe had in mind. Any large deviations can than be weeded out (like NZ Saaz versus trad Saaz). A plus or minus couple of alpha acid units error is not likely to have a large influence on the beer. I've never read that book, but I'd agree that the best approach would be to give a target range of IBUs for the recipe, then mention that the prescribed hop quantities are guidelines that could be adjusted depending on the actual aa% of the hops you are using.


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## PistolPatch (30/5/07)

Thanks for the posts today re the books. Great to hear matti doesn't recommend Noonan to beginners, I agree with Spills about people learning differently, thanks for the explanations on Designing Great beers Lucas and Steve and finally, great to see you here as well Les! (Wow! One sentence and I've acknowledged everyone!)

I wrote to Thirsty a few days back saying that, in hindsight, I wished I'd worded my first post better. It was a thread I started off the cuff after reading some stuff here on AHB which I can't remember. I do now, however, remember the motivation.

Firstly seeing as I unwittingly mentioned Jamil (someone I know nothing about) I'd like to say that since starting this post (and Thirsty knows that I didn't mean that Jamil was wrong or anything and that I was just asking a question and actually did honestly wonder, amongst many other things, if some people's palates were very advanced,) that I have since learned that Jamil constantly refers to the fact that the things he says work, work for him, on his system, you might find a different result on yours and may well have to tweak your process.

I like comments like that. From what I gather, he's a bit of an adventurer as well which I also like. From the two minutes of audio I have heard, I also really like the fact that he said he has _actually_ tried doing two different boils. Anyway, I've now downloaded 8 of his podcasts - lol!

Tonight I remembered at least half the motivation for starting this thread must have been a thread somewhat like this one

Have a read of that and you'll see exactly what I mean about 'levels.' This poor guy asked a question about his first lager and there is no possible way that he could make sense of the replies. Tell me how this guy could possibly be less confused than he was at the time of his original post? Thankfully Ross and Stuster gave some practical advice but, by this time, the thread had digressed into liquid yeast starters, pitching calculators etc, etc. This thread is a classic example of 'mis-placed' information.

Way too much of that goes on.

On a side-note, Brewtus has bumped the Adventurous Brewers Wanted thread which I know some of you here have already contributed to and nearly all of you will be interested in. It's had a fickle start and could have been started a lot better in hindsight but hopefully some of us here can add a little more to it (testify!) and in a few months time, we can use the info to start a new thread of real value.

Like everyone has said here so far, 'Test for Yourself!' That thread has a few ideas to speed up the progress.

How nice would it be to get a group of brewers together whose advice we can really trust? Whilst this would be a long-term project it would have tremendous value for us.

Spot ya guys,
Pat


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## Zwickel (31/5/07)

Hello Pat,

referring to:
"This poor guy asked a question about his first lager and there is no possible way that he could make sense of the replies. Tell me how this guy could possibly be less confused than he was at the time of his original post? Thankfully Ross and Stuster gave some practical advice but, by this time, the thread had digressed into liquid yeast starters, pitching calculators etc, etc. *This thread is a classic example of 'mis-placed' information."*

let me ask you some questions: would you prefer to talk to a baby in a silly baby language instead of a proper english?
or if someone is asking for the way, would you say: the way youre asking for is too complicated, better you go somewhere else?

I think, to reach ones goal, sometimes there are many ways , not only one.
In a forum like this, everyone may describe hes own way to come to that.
Thats what makes a forum very interesting and its not a tenet.

In a long and for many readers interesting thread, naturally youll find many different opinions. So far so good.
Why should one reduce the subject to a minimum? Do you know from start how skilled the questioner already is?
....and if everyone in a thread represents the same minimalized opinion, how boring would a forum be?

The questioner may pick out what ever he may put into practice.

thats just my 2cnt. and apologizes again for my poor english (but Im on the way to improve it, by reading this forum  ). 

Cheers :beer:


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## matti (31/5/07)

We should always question the forum entries.
It would appropriate to stick to to the subject too, one i have a great problem with myself. NOT FUNNY HAHA

This is an incredible busy forum, and as so eloquently said earlier in the this particular thread, one has to sift the information and absorb what applies to ones own needs.

That maybe easier said then done.

Zwickel and pat and every one else who has loads of information, and I should include my self.

We should try to keep our fingers to these type of thread instead of confusing the beginner with loads of, sometimes, confusing and too advanced brewing teqniques. 
Thas is a my $ worth if I say so myself


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## redgums500 (31/5/07)

CRUMBS !!! Just read the last 5 pages and wasn't sure if I was signed into a beer and brewing forum or some philanthripic ( bugger no spell check!) discussion pertaining to the morality of human thought over his actions ,to ones activity in human society, regardless of the demographic and sociographic influences throughout certain regions.  

To me its a fun hobby and one that can be shared with family and friends, along with the occassional hangover.... No big deal  


cheers

redgums


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## jkeysers (31/5/07)

Zwickel said:


> let me ask you some questions: would you prefer to talk to a baby in a silly baby language instead of a proper english?



Are you saying i'm a baby?!? haha. I kid, I kid.

When it comes to brewing, I guess I am. I know virtually nothing compared to some of the people around here. But compared to my non-brewing friends, I may as well be speaking another language when I talk about brewing. I guess it's all part of the process. Home brewing has a fairly long and fairly steep learning curve. And it would lose so many people that are starting out for that reason. This site is the only reason I kept at it, and now i'm starting to reap the rewards.

Edit: Very nervous to be posting in the AG section. I'm a long way off AG. The closest i've ever come is my Fresh Wort Kits. haha. I kinda feel like a 4th grader in high school.


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## PistolPatch (31/5/07)

i_like_chicken said:


> Very nervous to be posting in the AG section. I'm a long way off AG. The closest i've ever come is my Fresh Wort Kits. haha. I kinda feel like a 4th grader in high school.



Hey chicken, don't be worried about posting here. I probably should have put this in The Common Ground forum anyway as matti suggested.

Howdy Zwickel. Your English is great mate! I just had a re-read of that thread and notice that you were the one to bring up not necessarily needing to do a diacetyl rest. Good on you! This to me, is good advice for a person doing their first lager.

After re-reading that thread, I still think many of the posts are too advanced for a first lager. Starters* for example are a whole new world which chicken hasn't done (or myself for that matter.) I also realised though that there was a lot of good info there but I suppose that due to the nature of a forum, the information becomes very dis-jointed. I have been bewildered by this many times in the past.

It would be interesting to see if chicken could let us know if he found the thread bewildering or easy.

What I like, is when guys such as yourself, who know a subject write one comprehensive post. This makes it really easy. Funnily enough, I just found a great example of such a post here on yeast harvesting from a yeast cake. This one post is really well-written. I'm sure there are heaps more but trying to find them is very difficult sometimes.

Zwickel, I'd love to see someone such as yourself write some stuff in the Wiki or maybe write some guides to aspects of lagering. It would be truly great to see a lot more cohesive and comprehensive information in the one post or article.

:super: 
Pat


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## jkeysers (1/6/07)

PistolPatch said:


> It would be interesting to see if chicken could let us know if he found the thread bewildering or easy.



I found most peoples individual advice pretty easy to follow. It was the different ideas and opinions that made things confusing. But brewing is all about different ideas and ways of doing things I guess. For me, i'll probly just start with the simplest methods and tweak it as I go.


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## Tangles (1/6/07)

As the saying goes "Opinions are just like bums - everyone has one!"

I agree though chicken, some advice is really easy to follow, some leaves me scratching my head and some plain goes right over the top. I just takes bits and pieces from everyone and have a dip.


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## Maxt (1/6/07)

Advice is sometimes contextual. Advice that you hear when you are not ready for it (ie the benefit of a mash out and fly sparge when you are at the 'adding a hop bag to your kit ' stage, does not compute.

I heard a great quote about accepting advice once..and it basically boiled down to the fact that the best advice is timely..ie when you need it. 'Just in time', not 'just in case', so to speak.
So, new brewers being able to ask for help is invaluable. I know I have made every dumb mistake under the sun, and it is only through the helpful advice of brewers on sites like this, that have helped.


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## Darren (1/6/07)

Often when I have questioned an expert in a field I have been wrong, but learned something.

cheers

Darren


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## Trough Lolly (1/6/07)

---Sticks his head above the trench---

At the risk of being flamed for past posts, I honestly believe that brewing is only as complicated as you want it to be.

If you're happy to use a kit only - that's fine...
If you like to steep some grains and add a bit of hops - that's fine...
If you do partial or full mashes - that's fine too!

I've learned a bit about brewing since 1995 and I've always felt "in debt" to those in my local brewclub and brewing forums such as this, who spare me their time to explain things. It wasn't all that long ago when I wondered why people wasted their money on buying yeast and hops when all you need is in the Coopers kit!
I personally believe in helping others where I can when it comes to brewing and sure, I've been dead wrong on heaps of occasions but that doesn't stop me from asking more questions and answering a few along the way - we're not asking for directions on how to perform brain surgery here! My geek mode responses only occur because I wondered how things actually occurred and a related question is asked that may merit a more detailed response, eg what actually goes on down at the cell wall level when the yeast hydrolises the sugars we make available in the wort. It's a pretty amazing thing, but I digress...  

Regardless of whether you are a "brewing expert" or not, the beauty of this hobby is that we all have very similar goals - to brew beer and enjoy the fruits of our labours with friends if there's enough to go around!  

Cheers,
TL


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## bugwan (1/6/07)

I saw this thread a few minutes after it was created. I was going to post, but frankly I thought there's so much opinion flying around in my head (or was that Koelsch?), I'd leave it.

Now that I've read some great posts, I thought I'd bring down the tone and post myself  

Personally, I'm a fan of questioning the experts, as they're not all they're always cracked up to be. Experts aren't always deserving of their titles, some are thrust into their positions of influence by luck, others by aggressive self-marketing. I work in IT at a Stockbroker, and I've never met such a collection of self-obsessed individuals who think they are on experts everything, yet all they need to get their broking license is to sit a 1 hour exam...

Brewing is quite an interesting subject in this context - many industries (think finance, retail etc) can look to the most 'successful' (or biggest) in their field for guidance on how to be good. Most small banks want to be like NAB, right?. However, brewers never look to CUB or Lion Nathan for pointers, the good oil is with the little, passionate guys.

I think brewers by nature are an inquisitive lot, we question plenty. Especially, as our new American poster has pointed out, AHB posters are big proponents of BIAB and no-chill. HOWEVER! Most of us use a three vessel system, a march pump, a certain grain to liquid ratio, we mash, lauter, sparge, boil, keg, and drink. Maybe many of us aren't questioning enough? h34r:


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## PistolPatch (1/6/07)

No way that you have brought the tone down bugwan. What a great post!

You made me think of some of the guys I knew here in WA 15 years ago who are now advisors to micro-breweries here. What a crack up!

There's two that come to mind in particular and they know nothing about brewing but talk well. I have no understanding of how they are where they are now.

It makes you wonder, if this is happening in the small breweries, what happens in the big breweries? I suspect everything is very mechanical and there is no room for an artisan (as Screwtop would say) to come along and say, 'Why don't we brew this beer?'

You have to seriously wonder about their 'experts' in market research as well. I brewed NRB's All Amarillo Pale Ale and after a wonderful response from all age groups of both sexes, asked my brother-in-law to keep a few bottles in his fridge and just pour them out without saying anything to the guests that often go to my sisters place. Most of them so far have, unprompted, said, "What's this beer? Bloody nice?" (They seriously love it no matter which way I brew it and I've done 5 more brews since!)

So why aren't the big breweries doing beers like that? Probably simply in-house politics.

Self-serving individuals get a long way in this society even when it makes no sense. Why would a service industry such as a bank or phone company let their customers stay on hold for at least 20 minutes? Why wouldn't a big brewery try putting out a great beer?

I could explain why but that would take me about 20,000 words!!! Bugwan, you've nailed anything that I could write when in one sentence when you talked of how a craft brewer, when wanting to brew a splendid beer, does not not look up to the commercial brewery. 

You are spot on! That one comment alone will hopefully provoke much thought and not just about brewing beer.

Many thanks mate!
Pat

P.S. Can't tell you how hard I've found it to actually stop writing here bugwan - lol! Some of the other posts above have also stimulated me way too much but I need to go and put my brew in the fermenter! Top stuff!


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## bugwan (1/6/07)

PistolPatch said:


> .
> .
> .
> Many thanks mate!
> ...



Sorry to cut out all your post in my quote Pat, just wanted to blush in the glory of being honoured by a huge post from your good self. You're a credit to the site and the hobby. Keep the great threads rolling.

I've got another Koelsch to check on too...

Spot ya!


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## jjeffrey (1/6/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> That brings me to my next point: Recipes in BYO magazine. I have found these, after initial cautiousness, to be quite a good source of material to base a beer upon. However, and I'm sure a few of you could back me up here, Never take their information as gospel. Yes, they have internationally recognised beer authors creating material for them, and now the much-lauded Jamil, but they sometimes have serious errors in the proof-reading or fact-verification of the articles. I have emailed them about it several times and got no reply. They must be busy doing something else.



SO TRUE.

BYO have always provided good basis for style background- but it's always been an American slant, and by that I mean, a publication that tries to help Americans brew like Europeans using brew materials only found in the US. Even Jesus Jamil Zainasheff, whilst a legend in the American homebrewing scene and an extremely accoladed (semi) amateur brewer, is still as pompus and opinionated AS THE REST OF US about "how it should be done". I'm not sure that the wider-american audience counts to BYO- which is why I failed to take advantage of renewing my subscription despite the "special 2 issues for free" offer that I regularly received.

(JZ, if you are reading this, please forgive me- I really don't want to go to hell. I WILL REPENT!)


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## tangent (1/6/07)

read some stuff, brew some beer, make up your own mind, keep it under 400 words


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## PistolPatch (2/6/07)

Tangent!: What's this 400 words business? Go and stand in the corner! 

Bugwan: I saw your post below. Now have my beer in fermenter and also have reduced the prior essay here to.... Thanks for your posts above mate. The well over four hundred word essay kept me amused last night though and I'm glad that you got a read 

LOL
Pat


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## bugwan (2/6/07)

Confucious say, anyone using words "machinations" or "motivations" after 11pm need to do morning edit.

Pat, put your wort in the fermenter already!

I'm off...
Cheers!


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