# RecipeDB - Super Landlord



## Bribie G (10/8/09)

Super Landlord  Ale - English Best (Special) Bitter  All Grain               1 Votes        Brewer's Notes BIAB recipe. 90 min mash at 67 degrees, 90 min boil, caramelise 2L of wort down to 300 ml and return to the boil. Note no late hopping. Ferment below 20 but not too cool as pushing a wee bit of ester here.   Malt & Fermentables    % KG Fermentable      5 kg TF Golden Promise Pale Malt    0.5 kg Weyermann Munich I    0.06 kg Weyermann Melanoidin    0.06 kg JWM Chocolate Chit Malt     0.5 kg Cane Sugar       Hops    Time Grams Variety Form AA      25 g Fuggles (Pellet, 4.5AA%, 90mins)    25 g Goldings, East Kent (Pellet, 5.0AA%, 90mins)    25 g Styrian Goldings (Pellet, 5.4AA%, 60mins)       Yeast     30 ml Wyeast Labs 1187 - Ringwood Ale       Misc     1 tablet Whirfloc         24L Batch Size    Brew Details   Original Gravity 1.059 (calc)   Final Gravity 1.018 (calc)   Bitterness 39 IBU   Efficiency 70%   Alcohol 5.32%   Colour 18 EBC   Batch Size 24L     Fermentation   Primary 10 days   Secondary 7 days   Conditioning 3 days


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## Katherine (10/8/09)

Why the cane suger? 

and what yeast did you use?


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## Supra-Jim (10/8/09)

Mash temp? 

Also did you perform any water additions/modifications, or jsut filter it through an old sock?

Cheers SJ


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## bradsbrew (10/8/09)

Looks interesting there Bribie, were the 90min hops FWH or added at start of boil?

Brad


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## Bribie G (10/8/09)

Wow you guys are quick  , I've just done the final edit so all ok now. The only water addition was 5.2 stabiliser, I totally forgot about putting in any Calcium etc which has given me food for thought, hey. 

Sugaz is to represent the UK practice of putting in up to 10 percent sugar in many bitters and milds. This started at the beginning of the 20th century along with the use of some maize in many of the brews, as there were malt shortages / rationing, 2 world wars etc and I guess it's just part of the taste profile nowadays although I'm sure than many of the newer Micros and Craft breweries are using grain only. I was reading an article from the 1920s where they were moaning about the large amounts of brewing sugars used even back then in the Inter-war era which is sometimes regarded as a golden age of UK bitters and milds. UK is a major sugar producer (beet) and so they have no doubt snuck in a bit over the years following a similar practice to Australian brewers and our status as a major sugar producer. 

The Weyermann malts are to give more malt aroma and complexity. Talking to Ross over a pint of it yesterday and he said that a lot of the UK home brewers are also using UK 'aromatic' malts available in the UK that are not unlike the Wey products so it's not as radical as I thought when I did the brew. B) 

Ringwood yeast smacked and started with a couple of tablespoons of LDME in a Schott bottle and pitched next day.


67 degrees mash. There is a bit of controversy about whether BIAB produces more dextrinous worts than 3-V, dunno. Maybe Pistol Patch would know. 

I've got a keg in my new keggerator and it's a bit chill hazed if you want to drink it below 10 degrees so prolly best to Polyclar it as well. I've got it a bit cold because I also have and Aussie Pale in there as well.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

Edit: hops added at start of 90 min boil when foam subsided. Funny you should mention, Brad but I did a sort of FWH with a Yorkshire 'Summer Ale' I did a couple of weeks ago by just putting the hopsock in while bringing to boil, interesting to see how it turns out aroma wise.


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## chappo1970 (10/8/09)

BribieG,

Can you describe your process for caramelising the wort please? I am very interested in this process as I see a few using it like yourself and Screwy in particular and wouldn't mind having a shot.

So obviously you produce your wort and draw 2lts of 1st runnings? And then vigeriously boil while you mash out etc to get a volume of around 300ml. I imagine that takes some time to do so do you wait until it's almost there and then start your boil? Sorry prolly seems straight forward but I'm trying to bed the procedure in my head.

Cheers

Chappo


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## Supra-Jim (10/8/09)

Hi Chappo,

I'vebeen planning to try this on a brew in the near future and my idea was to collect 2 ltrs into a separate pot, and place this on one of those little butane powered camping gas stoves (being that i'm in the garage not near the kitchen). Then boil this until it reduces sufficiently. Mean while the brewing process can continue as per normal and the reduced wort is added back to the kettle once ready.

This is my understanding/plan, please correct me if i'm wrong Bribie.

Cheers SJ


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## chappo1970 (10/8/09)

Cheers SJ! 

What type of boil do you aim for? Very vigorious? It's just when i do the math on evaporation rates it's going to take at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours to boil down from 2lts to 300ml say (subject to the "ish" rule)

Cheers

Chappo


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## Supra-Jim (10/8/09)

I was planning a vigourous boil. As mentioned, this is only my plan, i haven't done it yet!!!

Cheers SJ

Edit: The 'ish' rule, very closely related to K, the universal correction factor!


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## brettprevans (10/8/09)

I recon you easily get 2L of wort down to 300ml in 30min at a flat out boil in a wide pot. think about making pasta sauce or soup when you simmer for 1.5hrs you easily loose a1w of water, so i recon flat out boil (or just under) and in 30min you'd be done,

edit: forgot to mention that it looks like a nice drop indeed. i might do one and drop the goldings for some more styrian. love styrian. or maybe keep the goldings and just add more styrian anyways


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## chappo1970 (10/8/09)

I like your plan SJ and I am more curious of the process so I can get the procedure into my rather think cranium, it's just that I fugure by the time you have reduced your caramelised wort enough your plum at the end of your 90mins boil time including sparge and etc.

Cheers

Chappo


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## chappo1970 (10/8/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> I recon you easily get 2L of wort down to 300ml in 30min at a flat out boil in a wide pot. think about making pasta sauce or soup when you simmer for 1.5hrs you easily loose a1w of water, so i recon flat out boil (or just under) and in 30min you'd be done,
> 
> edit: forgot to mention that it looks like a nice drop indeed. i might do one and drop the goldings for some more styrian. love styrian. or maybe keep the goldings and just add more styrian anyways



Ahhh! Of course wide pot/pan... god I am a dumbarse?  D'oh <slaps hand on forehead hard!> makes sense now I was thinking along the lines of my extract days in a stock pot! Cheers CM2!

Chappo

EDIT: BTW this a cracking Beer I had a good taste test of this at Bribie's. Brilliant beer! But it is the caramelisation that makes this beer IMO hence the questions re above.


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## brettprevans (10/8/09)

i recon a big stockpot would do. say a 20-30L one. 

I did a simialr thing with my scottish heavy, but then again that was easy as it was an extract version. 

I recon it must be off your first runnings. take the first 2 L, boil the crap out of it whilst you continue to take the rest of the runnings and hopefully it should be done before you boil is finished. should matter even if youi had to add 300ml back to the wort after boil had finished. not like its going to dilute it or you need the volume. am i right?


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## RobW (10/8/09)

I did this recently with 2-3 litres of first runnings in a 10 litre stockpot.
It reduced to under a litre in 30 minutes or so with a steady (not flat out) boil.
Can't be more accurate because I didn't measure anything.


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## buttersd70 (10/8/09)

BribieG said:


> There is a bit of controversy about whether BIAB produces more dextrinous worts than 3-V, dunno. Maybe Pistol Patch would know.



_less _dextrinous, _higher _attenuation. At least that's what TB said in the BB interview. Having tried your mild, I don't think it's a particularly valid concern, though. Body seemed right to me, given that I know what was in it, and know how you made it...

+1 on the german malts, though....I have no issue using german malt in UK beers, cos they're a damn fine product. In fact, my latest bitter is golden promise + wey munich 1 in equal quantaties....only cos I couldn't get my hands on any more GP atm....but the result is so nice, I think I might stick to that, anyway.... :chug:


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## Bribie G (10/8/09)

I'm doing a caramelisation right now!

Actually it was Screwtop who put me onto caramelisation in the first place with a recipe for Sam Smith's Old Brewery Bitter, which I haven't got round to yet, but I thought that if it's good enough for Tadcaster then it's bloody well good enough for Keighley, hey Butters (insert icon of clog dancing Yorkshiremen). 

I'm doing a very similar brew ATM. I ran out of bloody Fuggles AND EKG so will be subbing Challenger, Northdown and Styrian Goldings with a tad less hops overall as the Challenger and Northdown are 7 or 8 % alpha. The Styrians will save the day I'm sure. I notice that many of the UK regional brewers, if you look at their sites, are fairly open about their hops and a three hop brew seems to be the go in their special best bitters, e.g Brains S.A. Gold.


In my case - BIAB - because what comes out of the bag is basically the finished sweet wort I just grabbed two litres out of the tap. Having said that I did a sparge in a bucket as well to make up for the volume I had stolen out of the urn, and of course a bit of extra efficiency as well, so the wort in the stockpot started a wee tad stronger but not by much.





OK all done, starting with 2L of sweet wort I ended up with a middy about 300ml and it tastes like a very aromatic toffee malt extract and quite sticky. Took 80 minutes on a somewhat dodgy electric ring. Gas would definitely get it evaporated faster. I have 15 mins to end of boil so going to pour the caramel in now. Absolutely _lerve_ the colour :icon_cheers:


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## brando (10/8/09)

90 minute mash at 97 degrees???


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## Bribie G (10/8/09)

oops got my six upside down :lol:


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## buttersd70 (10/8/09)

BribieG said:


> (insert icon of clog dancing Yorkshiremen).



A little known fact is that Abba aren't Swedish at all....prior to their fame, they were a clog dancing trio from Hebden Bridge. h34r: 

:lol:


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## Henno (10/8/09)

Ok, now I'm thinking of getting into this caramelising thing myself. I get the big pot thing so I can really get a serious boil going but here's my question. If it is a big wide pot and it is boiling like buggery how can you accurately tell when you have 300ml left? I have just wacked 300ml of water into the bottom of a big pot in my kitchen and trying to measure it with a dipstick it could be anything from 200 to 400. Is it the final volume not critical as long as it tastes caramely?

Cheers
H


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## Fourstar (10/8/09)

Henno said:


> Ok, now I'm thinking of getting into this caramelising thing myself.



Ive had a scottish on the cards for arond the past 6 months, keeps on getting peddled back due to my hop addiction and brewing around competitions. :angry: Might be an idea to crank one out after my holidays, by then its too late to brew it for vicbrew and there will be around 4-5 months of no comps (minus oktoberfest)! sounds like a plan!


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## bum (10/8/09)

Not wanting to start any sort of pissing contest here but I do have a question as I've been looking at a *ahem* rather obscure Landlord recipe lately.

In DrSmurto's recipe he says he's added the choc to bypass the caramelising process but you've used both. I'm not trying to pit one idea against the other - just trying to get my head around both ideas. Since I've not yet used choc malts nor have I caramelised wort before can someone shed some light for me?


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## Muggus (10/8/09)

bum said:


> I'm not trying to pit one idea against the other - just trying to get my head around both ideas. Since I've not yet used choc malts nor have I caramelised wort before can someone shed some light for me?


I'm guessing that choc malt is in there to darken the wort, and add a bit of extra malt complexity.
Caramelising the wort also darkens it, and add to the malt profile as well.
Having said that, they would be different beasts, and i'm also tempted to fiddle around with such a process...


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## Fourstar (10/8/09)

bum said:


> Not wanting to start any sort of pissing contest here but I do have a question as I've been looking at a *ahem* rather obscure Landlord recipe lately.
> 
> In DrSmurto's recipe he says he's added the choc to bypass the caramelising process but you've used both.



Choc would be used to adjust colour as you will not get the same flavours from choc malt compared with kettle carmelisation. In a nutshell, you are making malt toffee when you caramelise. I think you would be better to use caraaroma or another really dark crystal for the dark caramel flavours and a pinch of roast barley (like 5g) for colour adjustment. Kettle caramelisation can be mistaken for diacetyl as it has a creamy/buttery feel to the palate which is usually accentuated by low carbonation.

Either way, I'd go for some caraaroma and some roast malt/barley if you want to emulate the flavours of kettle caramelisation rather than adjusting it visually.


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## Bribie G (10/8/09)

Yup, I have been caramelising to get complexity and 'lusciousness' love that word .... not just colour. When Ross and Chappo set up my new kegerator yesterday, first keg in was the SuperLandlord and, without knowing the exact recipe Ross took a swig and said "there's some nice caramel going on in there". The choc of course offers more than just colour but as the Doc suggests the wort caramelisation could well stand alone as is.


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## bum (10/8/09)

Excellent. Thanks, guys.


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## RdeVjun (10/8/09)

I tried my hand at caramelizing some wort (I second the bigger pot suggestions BTW) but it didn't end up anywhere near dark enough or introduce the caramel flavour after adding it back into the boil, even though it seemed way dark in the smaller pot and at about the right volume. My 'take home message' was that too much caramelising is barely enough when using that method. I guess repeatability is one thing we might get with the choc/roast in the recipes, every single caramelising process is bound to be different.

Sadly I lost a TTL pilot batch with 1469 and caramelised wort like Bribie's recipe to an infection, although I've now narrowed down its most likely source to the dreaded tap fiasco, which, thanks to recent posts, are now being pulled apart between batches plus being replaced more frequently. Can't boil them, or at least the ones I have boiled have thence begun to drip and are only good for bottling. :angry: 

Am surprised no one has suggested an alternate yeast to Ringwood for this recipe? Or is a particular West Yorkshire strain just such given these days? Maybe there will be one or two in the works once lager season is over.  

As a general observation, we'd all do well to take note- BribieG is a fantastic craftsman and the awards of late only reinforce what I've suspected for some time.

Oh, and the camping stoves are fantastic in the kitchen when you've got something flammable busy on the stove. i.e. stockpot and a jersey/doona. Very handy bit of kit and can pump out enough BTUs to be useful for many things, I often have starters sterilising on one while the mash is on as my organisational skills are pretty ordinary, but NC saves the day in ironing out timing issues.

Edit: Oh damn, I forgot to mention- what a fantastic recipe, pal! Bookmarked!


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## drsmurto (11/8/09)

BribieG said:


> Yup, I have been caramelising to get complexity and 'lusciousness' love that word .... not just colour. When Ross and Chappo set up my new kegerator yesterday, first keg in was the SuperLandlord and, without knowing the exact recipe Ross took a swig and said "there's some nice caramel going on in there". The choc of course offers more than just colour but as the Doc suggests the wort caramelisation could well stand alone as is.



Bribie - You've convinced me to give this a go in my next TTL. I was not quite convinced but using a word like luciousness has tipped me over the edge! :beer: 

I love the name btw, SuperLandlord. (imagine it being said by a boxing ring announcer..... :lol: )

I make an english IIPA that i call Imperial Landlord but thats another story...... (and one that involves george lucas....)


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## Effect (11/8/09)

Dr Smurto putting sugar in his beer  I don't believe it


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## drsmurto (11/8/09)

Phillip said:


> Dr Smurto putting sugar in his beer  I don't believe it



Caramelising some of the 1st runnings Phil, no sugar added :icon_cheers:


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## BoilerBoy (11/8/09)

Did the boiling down process myself again last Saturday with 7L of 1st runnings. After having minimal success with this process in a 100% GP beer which still helped, but still came out as pale as a standard lagerI tried this grain bill -

4kg GP 
1kg Wey Vienna
300g Simpsons Imperial
40g Carafa I

Just as a technical point of interest and for whatever its worth? though we all know what we we mean by "caramelization"in this process, from what I have read it strictly speaking isn't! as the temps invoved to do this begin at 170C, its "Maillards reaction," which is the heating (or boiling in this case) of sugar compounds in the presence of an acid which creates flavours similar to melanoidins.

Cheers,
BB


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## gibbocore (11/8/09)

wouldn't however once the runnings start to go 'syrupy' a temp of around 170+ be acheived? It would have a pretty high percentage of sugar after being reduced from 2L to 300ml.


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## BoilerBoy (11/8/09)

gibbocore said:


> wouldn't however once the runnings start to go 'syrupy' a temp of around 170+ be acheived? It would have a pretty high percentage of sugar after being reduced from 2L to 300ml.



A fair question, maybe someone doing it next should take a temp reading.

Cheers,
BB


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## chappo1970 (14/8/09)

Alright BribieG so not to be out down I'm gunna give this a crack on Sunday. I am going to also have a crack at this caramelising thing.

I'll let ya know how I go.

Cheers

Chappo


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## Effect (17/8/09)

quick question on boiling down some first runnings.

lets just say I boil down 3 litres down to 1 litre (so I have lost 2 litres).

How should that affect my batch size?

Is my batch size going to be the original 20 litres? (20 is what I like to do) or will it be 18 litres because I boiled off 2 litres from the first runnings?

Cheers
Phil


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## AndrewQLD (17/8/09)

If your going to boil down first runnings you will lose the 2 lt in volume, so 18 lt final vol. you can add back the 2 lt you lost by topping up into the boiler with water.

Andrew


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## 3G (17/8/09)

The sugar will boil and be denser. If the temp of the reduction gets much above 175 degrees it will be too dark and bitter.


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## Bribie G (17/8/09)

Although BIAB is supposed to be a 'full volume of liquor at the start of the process' method, in reality I put more water - sorry liquor - either through 


sparging in a bucket or 
drawing some wort out of the urn tap into a stockpot and doing a 'mashout' at end of mash.

Either way the 300ml of concentrate that I put back in to the boil isn't a big amount and the wort is usually back up to normal level as a result of the two steps above.


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## balconybrewer (31/8/09)

hi all,

havent really been all that into the ESB's etc. but have tried a few of late and keen to nail a good one, the dr's landlord seems like a good start,

just wondering about the yeast, the 1469 is a seasonal (as i understand) and not availible at the moment so what is a reasonable alternative, i have read all the spec on the wyeast site and 1275 seems to be closest in the description

im also hoping to throw an irish on the yeast cake once this one is done, any advice will be much appreciated.

cheers


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## hatchor (31/8/09)

I did one with ringwood (1187) and it turned out nice, not as nice as the 1469, but for any ol ESB you could even try a 1968, I haven't got hold of any 1275 yet, but I am sure the author can comment on the use of different yeasts in this recipe...

however, you have given me a good idea, split a 30L batch with each yeast, and run a parallel fermentation to compare! wahoo


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## buttersd70 (31/8/09)

1275 is nothing like 1469....

It happens that 1275 is my second favourite yeast; so it's not that it's bad, it's just nothing like 1469....
Best wy sub would be ringwood, imo. Although there is a new whitlabs, and a new proculture (I think thats the name of it? Gryphon Brewing sells it) yeasts available, which are purported to be very similar (if not the same). Might want to give one of those a try.


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## Bribie G (31/8/09)

I have purchased two wee bottles of Proculture 'Wood Ale' that is supposed to be similar to 1469, from Gryphon. Arrived across the Continent in 36 hours and was fridge temp. when it arrived. Currently in my fridge. Run out of Golden Promise so I'm hanging out B) 

Ringwood is a very good sub for 1469, I have found. It was originally a Yorkshire strain from the old Hull brewery and is a true top cropper but of course it has been propagated and spread all over the planet now from the USA to Sweden etc so probably not completely true to what it used to be on Humberside.

<modesty>

It produced two brews that got me winning places in comps, the above SuperLandlord and a UK Mild pitched off slurry from the SuperLandlord so it's not a bad option

</modesty>


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