# 30l batch, wyeast starter?



## RobjF (15/7/13)

Guys, going to try and step up much production volume to 30l batch as it seems I'm going through my brews quicker than than I can make them. 
Going to have a go at my first all-grain Czech pilsner using a Wyeast 2001 urquell lager target gravity 1.046. 
Have made plenty of starters when reusing some harvested yeast but never from a smack pack. First of all do I really need to make a starter with this brew or would I get away with just using the packet. 
Secondly if I do make a starter from the smack pack I'm assuming I can just pitch it into a 1l wort starter as I do with my harvested yeast. 
Cheers rob


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## nathan_madness (15/7/13)

You will definitely need a starter for a 30L batch. Wyeast say that the one smack pack is good for 25L of 1.050 ale. You can use http://www.yeastcalc.com to calculate out how big you need to go. I always smack the pack to make sure the yeast it viable and then pitch it into 1L starter then step up from there.


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## manticle (15/7/13)

You need a starter or a couple of packs for a lager anyway. Increase the volume, you increase the cell count you need.


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## RobjF (15/7/13)

Thanks for e feed back guys. Fairly new to AG and defiantly new to bigger batches. Never had the need to us a yeast calculator before. Just trying to use the one on the Wyeast site. Not made easy by everything being in gallons and F. I don't have a stir plate yet but think it might be a wise investment going by the difference it makes to the results on there calculator. A 2l starter for a 30l batch would seem to me to be sufficient but according to there guild lines if I have work it out right I should be aiming for 12 million cells /ml for a larger under 1.060 with a pitch temp under 60f / 15c. Without a stir plate even a f4 litre only gives me 9.77 million cells /ml surly I must be doing something wrong I was hoping to get away with a 1 litre at most stepping up to two. I want to try and put this baby down on sat morning.


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## RelaxedBrewer (15/7/13)

A 3-4L starter is pretty common for a ~23L lager. I used a 3.5L on the one currently in my fermenter.


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## RobjF (15/7/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> A 3-4L starter is pretty common for a ~23L lager. I used a 3.5L on the one currently in my fermenter.


How long does it normally take you to step you starter up to 3.5l relaxed brewer??


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## RelaxedBrewer (15/7/13)

If I am using a fresh pack of yeast, I usually make a 2L starter then bump it up to 4L 2-3 days later. Ready to go in a total of 4-6 days.
You should be able to get away with brewing on saturday if you make the starter now 

(I keep 500ml of my starters to use as my stored yeast for my next batch, that way I don't need to collect and wash the yeast)


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## manticle (15/7/13)

For lagers, I run off 6-8 litres of wort to a starter vessel (stainless pot) and pitch my smack pack in that when it is chilled to about 10.
Pitch when active into the remaining chilled wort.
I do similarly for big belgians now (not the temp, just the starter size) - made easily possible by being a no chiller.


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## RobjF (16/7/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> If I am using a fresh pack of yeast, I usually make a 2L starter then bump it up to 4L 2-3 days later. Ready to go in a total of 4-6 days.
> You should be able to get away with brewing on saturday if you make the starter now
> 
> (I keep 500ml of my starters to use as my stored yeast for my next batch, that way I don't need to collect and wash the yeast)


Do you use a stir plate? Also when you bump up to 4 l do you chill the first 2l and then decant the wort of and pitch into a fresh 4 l wort or pour your 2 l starter onto another 2 l wort?

Cheers rob.


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## RobjF (16/7/13)

Also never made a lager starter before. Should I been putting it in my brewing fridge and making it at 10c??


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## manticle (16/7/13)

Depends how you wish to use it. If decanting and using the slurry, ferment warm and aerate constantly. If pitching the lot when active, ferment cool and avoid aeration after fermentation starts.


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## BeerNess (16/7/13)

The yeast calc on mrmalty.com is the easiest to understand that I've found and it will calculate in litres and Celsius.


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## RelaxedBrewer (16/7/13)

Basically what manticle said. 

I leave mine at room temperature and aerate by shaking/swirling for faster healthier fermentation and decant off most off the beer.
I don't have a stir plate.


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## RobjF (16/7/13)

I'm going to do that too as this is how I have made all my previous starters so I'm going to stick to what I know. You wait until fermentation is finished in the 2l and then pour off beer and add slurry to a 4l wort to expand?


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## citizensnips (16/7/13)

You put the 2L starter in your fridge to settle the yeast down to the bottom. You then pour the liquid above it out of the jar in one motion (so to not stir the yeast up), you then should have about an inch or 2 or slurry which you swirl up and pour into your main batch of wort when it's at the correct pitching temp. That is unless if your doing a stepped starter which in that case leave the slurry in the bottom, cook up some malt extract, cool it down and pour on top of slurry when at a reasonable temp


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## RelaxedBrewer (16/7/13)

RobjF said:


> I'm going to do that too as this is how I have made all my previous starters so I'm going to stick to what I know. You wait until fermentation is finished in the 2l and then pour off beer and add slurry to a 4l wort to expand?


If my understanding is correct, active fermentation is not that important in a yeast starter. Most of the yeast reproduction occurs in the adaptation phase (lag time). Once the yeast begin to actively ferment the wort they have already done the majority of their reproduction. I use the signs of aggressive active fermentation as a signal that the starter is ready to be pitched or stepped up.

Some people recommend cold crashing the starter to help pitch a larger quantity of yeast slurry. Other people say that cold crashing can stress the yeast and recommend against it. I have done both and made good beer both ways.

RB


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## RobjF (16/7/13)

Cool rb. 
Thinking I will set the 2l starter off and when it is going well will chill and pitch into 4l will let this ferment out chill pour off and pitch into beer. Think I will take some slurry of prior to pitching and keep like you said for my next batch rather than having to clean the cake up and harvest that way.


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## citizensnips (16/7/13)

Sounds like the right idea Rob, you'll have an adequate amount of yeast with that amount of starter even if you do save some for later. 
Cheers


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## RobjF (16/7/13)

2l starter is on. Hopefully I can get where I need to be by the weekend. 
Thanks for all the help and input guys.


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## citizensnips (16/7/13)

A 2 step lager starter won't be fully fermented by the weekend just to ruin your dreams


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## RobjF (17/7/13)

Thanks Snips
Shoot me down in flames. 
I hope the more yeast starters I do the better and more experienced I get at timing them to work for me. 
Though I might have to wait till the 2 l is finished, chill it until Sunday and then dump the slurry in a 4 l hopefully it would be ready for the following weekend.


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