# Selling My Homebrew



## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

Hey Guys,

Quick question, am I allowed to sell my homebrew to the general public out of my house?

The reason I ask is because I live right next to the uni and I'd love to supply all those hard studying kids with some cheap and cheerful beer, because I remember when I was studying all I could afford was *shudders* goon.

So I'd sell them for like $1.6 a long neck and then offer discounts when they bought the bottles back.

So yeah, Can I sell my homebrew to the public?

Cheers,

Zoid


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## jbowers (17/3/10)

Nope, pretty sure you cant.


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## benno1973 (17/3/10)

Nope, not unless you have a license.


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

jbowers said:


> Nope, pretty sure you cant.



How pretty sure are you?

And is there anyway I could get a licence or something to sell it?


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## wambesi (17/3/10)

zoidbergmerc said:


> How pretty sure are you?
> 
> And is there anyway I could get a licence or something to sell it?



Very sure you cant sell it.
It's legal to brew it at home, however if you want to sell you need an excise licence. Check the ATO out.


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## wakkatoo (17/3/10)

yeah you could get a licence. Start here: Linky

You might find you are better off just drinking it youself.


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

well it's still brewed at home....


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## big78sam (17/3/10)

google. i found this in 30 seconds...

http://www.treasury.tas.gov.au/domino/dtf/...A2572F0000119CD

"Liquor
To sell liquor in Tasmania you need to be authorised under the Liquor Licensing Act 1990. Once you have a licence you need authorisation before you change something significant about your business, such as altering the area of your premises or transferring the licence to another person. You are also required to help minimise the harm associated with the sale and supply of liquor, including Responsible Service of Alcohol. "


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## beerbrewer76543 (17/3/10)

You could charge people money for a six pack holder and they receive free of charge; 6 bottles of homebrew!


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## haysie (17/3/10)

zoidbergmerc said:


> How pretty sure are you?
> 
> And is there anyway I could get a licence or something to sell it?




Must be a big set up? Licence? no one needs one of those, What you do need is good beer, a good consistent supply of, maybe a label will help............................................. Then............ a license. That thing REAL operators have to pay!
I think you are having the forum on? or nondescript.


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## wambesi (17/3/10)

wakkatoo said:


> yeah you could get a licence. Start here: Linky
> 
> You might find you are better off just drinking it youself.



Whilst that is to do with selling, he's manufacturing as well so it's a lot more complicated than just a liquer licence.
In a nutshell - it's not going to happen unless you got a lot of money and time spare.


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## dth (17/3/10)

Not without paying hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in licensing fees, undergoing numerous checks on your beer to determine if it is safe to sell and its alcohol content to determine the tax you'd have to pay on it, getting an A.B.N. and declaring all material costs, losses, profits etc. etc. ad nauseum.

That is if you want to be able to sell it *legally* of course.


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

haysie said:


> Must be a big set up? Licence? no one needs one of those, What you do need is good beer, a good consistent supply of, maybe a label will help............................................. Then............ a license. That thing REAL operators have to pay!
> I think you are having the forum on? or nondescript.



Well excuse me for having an idea to make lots of cheap drinkable beer to feed to poor uni students and not thinking it through in the slightest.

I was thinking I could get a club liquor licence and then make a society at the university that was free to join and members got to buy my cheap homebrew.


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

dth said:


> the tax



Oh forgot about that, that thing that makes all fun stuff expensive... sigh.


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## haysie (17/3/10)

zoidbergmerc said:


> to feed to poor uni students



Go flog it somewhere else!


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

haysie said:


> Go flog it somewhere else!



But they're closer.


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## Katherine (17/3/10)

Quality control would come into it also! Not the best idea!


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

Katie said:


> Quality control would come into it also! Not the best idea!



Ah well, it was a fun idea while it lasted 

I'll let you know when I have another stupid idea.

I did like that six pack holder idea though


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## benno1973 (17/3/10)

If you're trying to help students out, give them some beer rather than charging them for it. Or better still, hold a brew day and teach them how to do it themselves. Remember, give a man a homebrew and you'll quench his thirst, teach a man to brew and he'll be drunk a lot longer...


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## MarkBastard (17/3/10)

Mate you can do it, it's just not legal. I may or may not have used to do this with distilling back when I was at uni.

If you know the kids just do it IMO. If you don't, well I wouldn't go and hand out flyers or anything.


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> hold a brew day and teach them how to do it themselves. Remember, give a man a homebrew and you'll quench his thirst, teach a man to brew and he'll be drunk a lot longer...



I like what you did there.


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## wambesi (17/3/10)

They can always pay you for the ingredients and you hand over the final product *wink wink*


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## fcmcg (17/3/10)

wambesi said:


> They can always pay you for the ingredients and you hand over the final product *wink wink*


I know someone who was doing this....he stopped whilst he was ahead ...or got a reaming from the tax department. This is not to mention the health dept....or the coppers....he knew he was doing wrong before he started....
Simple answer is NO...you cannot sell yourhomebrew without turning yourself into a micro-brewery...and satisfying alot of govenrment departments.....otherwise we'd all be bloody doing it...lol


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## WSC (17/3/10)

Sell them the wort and yeast, then allow them to ferment and bottle it at your place or where ever, you don't need a licence to sell wort or yeast, but then they could just go to woolworths.

Maybe sell them the wort and yeast so they own it, then they can 'pay' you to ferment and bottle it.

I think the maximum fine in (QLD anyway) for selling liquor without a licence is 2 years jail....imagine the recipes you could think of while in the slammer........


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## zoidbergmerc (17/3/10)

fergthebrewer said:


> Simple answer is NO...you cannot sell yourhomebrew without turning yourself into a micro-brewery...and satisfying alot of govenrment departments.....otherwise we'd all be bloody doing it...lol



I thought that might be the case.


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## Back Yard Brewer (17/3/10)

zoidbergmerc said:


> How pretty sure are you?




Quite sure. If in doubt just put up a sign saying beer for sale :lol: :lol: I am sure it wouldn't take long for the local constabulary to rock up.

BYB


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## bcp (17/3/10)

Ah, c'mon!




Where's the old spirit? Where's Danny Bailey?




A few dollars on the side and they might help you pour...


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## jbowers (17/3/10)

Sell 'collectible bottles' that just happen to be filled with liquid. That's what people on ebay do when selling beers. Dodgy, and probably not failproof but its a shot...


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## QldKev (17/3/10)

How many people are you looking at? If you mates come over for a beer and bring supplies to chip in; that is ok. My neighbor over the back fence used to feel bad about us drinking all my beer; so often he would come over with a kit or two as a gift; and also lend a hand on bottling day.

QldKev


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## Pollux (17/3/10)

What if you "traded" it in return for getting them to do odd jobs around the house for you???

Mow the lawn, earn 15 longies.......Paint the house, earn a double batch....

Probably still technically illegal as it's using alcohol as currency though....


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## wambesi (17/3/10)

Pollux said:


> What if you "traded" it in return for getting them to do odd jobs around the house for you???
> 
> Mow the lawn, earn 15 longies.......Paint the house, earn a double batch....
> 
> Probably still technically illegal as it's using alcohol as currency though....


It's one of those things isn't it, technically maybe but not normally cracked down on, start charging though....
Same thing as recording TV shows/movie etc of the TV on video/DVD. Most people would do it for a mate if they were away, or let a mate borrow a movie taped the other night but if you started charging for it that's another matter.

These fine lines everywhere....

EDIT: Actually I'm moving house end of the month and a few mates are helping out, what are they getting in return? A keg or two on tap, a few commercials and some snags...


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## Pollux (17/3/10)

I suppose it would depend on the numbers here...

I have often paid mates with cases of beer for helping me move/other random stuff over the years.


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## wambesi (17/3/10)

Yep, and if I started charging well one I'd feel like an ass (as it's mates) and two it's asking for trouble.
Mind you it is the dream to sell your beers isn't it, if only mine we're good enough... :icon_cheers:


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## MHB (17/3/10)

Don't even think about it
Last time I had a look at the penalties under the Excise Act (remember this is a federal tax act) the penalties were (from memory):-
Fines up to $ a mil
Up to 5 years in prison
Or both
What it cost to prosecute you
Twice what the court thinks you made as penalty (that's just in case you aren't convinced your total screwed)

Believe me the ATO has better lawyers than you can afford and people with guns on call to kick in your door.
They are also fairly familiar with most of the amateur ruses people think are so sophisticated and quite willing to prosecute.

Just DON'T

MHB


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## beers (17/3/10)

MHB said:


> They are also fairly familiar with most of the amateur ruses people think are so sophisticated and quite willing to prosecute.



Even if I'm just selling glass bottles.. & giving away the contents of said bottle for free?


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## Siborg (17/3/10)

Video and software piracy is illegal... Doesn't stop traders from openly selling pirated material at the markets.


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## Murcluf (17/3/10)

Thats all we need a few people shooting their mouths off Fing it up for everyone else because they are greedy small mind dicks. plus I thought this was a banned topic on here also


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## thesunsettree (17/3/10)

Murcluf said:


> Thats all we need a few people shooting their mouths off Fing it up for everyone else because they are greedy small mind dicks. plus I thought this was a banned topic on here also



yeah murcluf, 
i've said the same thing before...the less the mainstream knows about us the better


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## beers (17/3/10)

Siborg said:


> Video and software piracy is illegal... Doesn't stop traders from openly selling pirated material at the markets.



OK.. what if I sell pirated DVD's which come with a free 6 pack? :unsure:


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## TidalPete (17/3/10)

Sign on footpath outside OP's house "HAVE BEER, WILL SWAP FOR PUSSY. MUST BE HOUSE-TRAINED". :lol: 

Grumpy Pete.


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## bradsbrew (17/3/10)

TidalPete said:


> Sign on footpath outside OP's house "HAVE BEER, WILL SWAP FOR PUSSY. MUST BE HOUSE-TRAINED". :lol:
> 
> Grumpy Pete.



Mate can you cut a stencil for that?? Have a perfect place to paint that on Saturday :lol: :lol:


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## TidalPete (17/3/10)

bradsbrew said:


> Mate can you cut a stencil for that?? Have a perfect place to paint that on Saturday :lol: :lol:



No stencil Brad but lots of old paint? :lol: 

Grumpy Pete.


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## absinthe (17/3/10)

Siborg said:


> Video and software piracy is illegal... Doesn't stop traders from openly selling pirated material at the markets.


yeah but the ATO doesn't get a huge amount of $$$$ taxing the production and sale of it (only a small $)


i have been looking into this myself try this site to get all the licences etc you need to apply for in your area (this ones for VIC but im sure theres site the same for all states) http://www.business.vic.gov.au/BUSVIC/LANDING/SEC05.html

the thing i don't get is how EASY it is to make and sell wine if you grow some for your own grapes and turn over less than like $100,000 a year.. you only need a cellar door license (unless you want to sell to drink on the premises) i think its about $100 a year and a visit form the heath inspector.

beer needs Excise Licences, Permission to Dispose, Deposit or Discharge Material onto Council Land or Drain,Food Safety Supervisor Qualification and Training, Registration of Food Premises, Registration of a Business Name. 

At least

edit: crap forgot the link AGAIN


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## roo_dr (17/3/10)

If you've got your heart set on selling cheap beer to hard-up students, there is a simple and very legal way... Get a job with mega-swill corp., who already have all the licenses / producing / packaging / distribution networks set up. :icon_drunk: 

You can then relax in your cloud of smug, knocking back some quality home-brewed product at your leisure. (You also may, or may not, have access to massive amounts of "discounted" raw materials for producing this h34r: !!)


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## Hatchy (18/3/10)

Does anyone know roughly what it would cost to get a legitimate micro brewery started? The simple & quick answer to this question is "more than I can afford". There's more issues here than liquor licencing & the ato. Speaking for myself, I struggle to make enough beer for me, I'm certainly not in a position to start selling it. Having said that, wouldn't it be great if we could all have our own cellar door sales?

I've always thought it would be good for a laugh to stand for parliament. Should we have a brewers party for the next federal election? Would we win a seat? Almost certainly not. Assuming we did win a seat, could we make a difference? Almost certainly not. Would we have fun trying? I reckon we would.

There's a federal election due later this year. If the brewers of Australia are keen to mount a campaign then I'm happy to stand for hindmarsh (it's a safe labor seat, I won't win it).

I possibly should've reread the rules around politics before posting this but I've had a few & can't be bothered. We've got a state election here this weekend & every stobie pole in Adelaide has a poster for some bloke who reckons abortions should be illegal. My personal opinion is that the blokes mum should've a) swallowed or B) aborted.

Apologies if I'm pushing this thread off topic but we do live in a democratic country where any citizen can stand for parliament (if they can afford it). Does anyone else want to live in a country where the brewers get a say in legislation?


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## bill_gill85 (18/3/10)

Not directly beer related, but does anyone know how charging for the use of facilities on a residential property may work? Say provide an "Off campus Common Area" that requires some sort of membership.

This membership would entitle the member to access to an area where food & beverages may be available, or where food may be prepared & beverages consumed.

In the interests of members safety, some details might need to be collected to verify age & ensure that minors are not allowed access.
The only thing being sold is a service, which is providing a location for students to unwind.

Any thoughts?


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## Supra-Jim (18/3/10)

billgill, i know you're probably just thinking out loud, but here's my take on it.

I would say your local council have something to say about that idea. Currently your property is most likely zoned as "residential" so if you were running any business or club on the premisis the council would techinically have issues about it. You would have to make an application to the council and your neighbours would get the right to object.

If alcoholic beverages are to be consumed/supplied on site, i think you'll some form of liquor license and that's the difficultly, esp here in Victoria, where laws are being tightened up to control alcohol related issues. Currently if you have alcohol being served and live or amplified music you need security on hand. 

When you consider all of the requirements it starts to get complicated. Remember to that sporting clubs get to do what they do because the primary existance is playing sport/providing a means for the community to play sport. The socialising and supply of alcohol is generally used to support the existance of the sporting organisation. Point being these types of orgs exist to provide a service to the community. A 'club' on a residential property where you could go and drink cheap/homemade booze, woulds be viewed very differently.

Remember too, it's all well and good when your mates sitting around your backyard a few beers, but take for a minute the thought of trouble makers who might want to attend/join. You see often enough in the news about 16/18/birthday parties going horribly wrong, because some gate crashers wouldn't take no for answer. This is why you would need licensing, security, public liability insurance, et etc etc.

Just my 2c

Cheers SJ


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## drew9242 (18/3/10)

There is a reason why you cant get cheap beer at a pub or club. By the time they you add up all there license costs, secruity, training, and all other little things that pop up you have to charge more on beer. Now this is just a pub, if you produce it to sell. Well you get even more red tape, and cost rise even more. I myself dont know of any craft beers that are cheap. Due to the fact they have to go through all the red tape and pay for all the licenses. And to make themselves viable they need to charge that much. Even though they would produce it cheaper then we can at home (if you don't count brewers time).

What i'm trying to get at is it is a great idea and i think many have thought of it. However if you go through all the right measures your beer won't be cheep anymore, and that defeats the purpose.

Your only option would be like some have stated, is teach them how to brew and let them use your gear for a price and they brew some up. But even then if you want to go public you have some hurdles to jump.


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## Fents (18/3/10)

If only you all knew the heartache that micro brewerys go through. (just going through it all now again with kooinda)

usually i would enlighten everyone but i cant sit here typing it all out for the next two hours.


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## HoppingMad (18/3/10)

Sorry to hear Fents.

Kooinda are one example of a Micro starting up in a residential premises. I've always wondered how on earth the council allowed it and am amazed you guys had such good neighbours that no one took issue.

I know years back the Mountain goat boys were doing their startup brews in a residential place in prahran and it took months of negotiation with people in the street and council to get it allowed. They only got it through as it was considered 'temporary' until they found a place bigger than their garage to brew in and assured everyone they weren't serving from the house.

The pain in the arse red tape to consider:
- Council/Planning
- Licensing
- Excise/ATO Tax
- Health & Safety & safe disposal of material
- Calibration of equipment/tanks

The list goes on. Have looked into this in a fair bit of detail - plenty of hoops to jump through to get it rolling.
Take short cuts and you come unstuck.

Hopper.


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## pyrobrewer (18/3/10)

billgill said:


> Not directly beer related, but does anyone know how charging for the use of facilities on a residential property may work? Say provide an "Off campus Common Area" that requires some sort of membership.
> 
> This membership would entitle the member to access to an area where food & beverages may be available, or where food may be prepared & beverages consumed.
> 
> ...


Its called Brew on Premise licence, find out about it here 
http://ato.gov.au/content/downloads/bus33165n5904.pdf
This entitles a member of the public to use commercial equipment to brew beer for home consumption - not for sale

Not quite sure what it is you want to do but you may need a Licence to manufacture

First hurdle is Local council 
You have to establish a Food preparation facility to commercial standards and have it passed By the EHO's and the plumbing dept (dont think this is easy it took 6 months.)

Then Applications to the ATO (which are free!) Excise application, BOP Application, Consent to criminal history check, consent to personal check, consent to company check, Certificates of callibration for vessels and test equipment, Detailed premise plans Details of ABN and bank account ....

Then the really fun bit depending on your state, Licence to sell, could take Years!!


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## .DJ. (18/3/10)

and you'd need public and products liability insurance.. what if you make an badly infected batch and someone becomes very ill or dies.. you have some serious legal issues if you dont have insurance...


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## devo (18/3/10)

you can sell it from home if you don't mind doing it illegally and willing to wear the consequences when the ATO come knocking on your door.


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## ~MikE (18/3/10)

zoidbergmerc said:


> Well excuse me for having an idea to make lots of cheap drinkable beer to feed to poor uni students and not thinking it through in the slightest.



let's just get one thing straight here. you don't actually give two shits about uni students. you've noticed a potential cash cow and want to make $$$. 

the only thing making your plan competitive is selling it illegally to avoid paying the excise, because this would push the price up too high, and they'd be like "**** that, gimme some goon". so no, you can't sell it legally, nor do you want to because it defeats the purpose.


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## Phoney (18/3/10)

1. Put a sign out the front of your house saying "FREE BEER" then in fine print underneath, "Conditions: girls only, it must be drunk in my backyard, and in your underwear".
2. Then sell backyard entry tickets to guys.
3. ????
4. PROFIT


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## Fents (18/3/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> 1. Put a sign out the front of your house saying "FREE BEER" then in fine print underneath, "Conditions: girls only, it must be drunk in my backyard, and in your underwear".
> 2. Then sell backyard entry tickets to guys.
> 3. YOUTUBE
> 4. PROFIT



fixd for you.


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## Supra-Jim (18/3/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> 1. Put a sign out the front of your house saying "FREE BEER" then in fine print underneath, "Conditions: girls only, it must be drunk in my backyard, and in your underwear".
> 2. Then sell backyard entry tickets to guys.
> 3. ????
> 4. PROFIT



You fine print is missing a pretty important qualifier, "you must be this hot (insert pic of suitable hotness) to enter" otherwise it may get messy (in a bad way, see here ) and you won't sell any tickets. :icon_cheers: 

Cheers SJ


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## schooey (18/3/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> 1. Put a sign out the front of your house saying "FREE BEER" then in fine print underneath, "Conditions: girls only, it must be drunk in my backyard, and in your underwear".
> 2. Then sell backyard entry tickets to guys.
> 3. ????
> 4. PROFIT



Aren't there already places like this? I think they go more like this though...

1. Put an _imaginary_ sign out the front of your club saying "Free Drugs" and put a real sign saying "Bada Bing" Then in unspoken fineprint, mention "Conditions: girls only, must be taken off premises, and in your own time".
2. Then sell entry tickets to guys.
3. Massively inflate your drink prices
4. PROFIT


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## zoidbergmerc (18/3/10)

Nah, the way my front door works is that if your nose touches the door before your tits do you can't get in.


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## absinthe (18/3/10)

zoidbergmerc said:


> Nah, the way my front door works is that if your nose touches the door before your tits do you can't get in.


you need to go on a diet then if you can get in.. or do you use the back door?


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## zoidbergmerc (18/3/10)

absinthe said:


> you need to go on a diet then if you can get in.. or do you use the back door?



Haha yeah I just go in the back


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## bonj (18/3/10)




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