# Bad Brewing Ingredient Combos



## Nick JD (16/6/10)

Are there any truely bad combinations of ingredients? Or is it just a matter of taste? 

I'm getting close to FG on a "bad combo" due to not having the correct yeast and throwing caution into the wind. 

It's Dr. Smurto's Golden _Lager. _Almost the same recipe, but with S-189 @ 12C ... and I'll be a baboon's nephew if it doesn't taste ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. 

Amarillo in a lager? 

So the question remains - are there any terrible combinations of ingredients if we disregard "Style"?


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## Ross (16/6/10)

Why would you consider S-189 in a Golden Ale a bad combo? 
Many hop driven ales fermented with a lager yeast result in beautifully clean refreshing beers. I've not had a bad experience yet using a lager yeast like this.


Cheers Ross


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## bradsbrew (16/6/10)

Try using 3787 on that recipe Nick. In the early days I used a 3787 yeast cake to ferment out a Pilsner recipe. 2 and a bit years later the bottles are finally getting to a drinklable stage.

Cheers


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## bradsbrew (16/6/10)

Ross said:


> Why would you consider S-189 in a Golden Ale a bad combo?
> Many hop driven ales fermented with a lager yeast result in beautifully clean refreshing beers. I've not had a bad experience yet using a lager yeast like this.
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



And at the right temps you can get a reasonable lager with an ale yeast IMO.


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## Screwtop (16/6/10)

bradsbrew said:


> And at the right temps you can get a reasonable lager with an ale yeast IMO.




And that lager would be...............an Ale !!

Screwy


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## Nick JD (16/6/10)

Ross said:


> Many hop driven ales fermented with a lager yeast result in beautifully clean refreshing beers.



:chug:


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## under (16/6/10)

I got a packet of s189 in the fridge. And a cube of doc golden.... should I................ Used pacman last cube and it was bloody great, was a hit with friends/family.


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## bradsbrew (16/6/10)

Screwtop said:


> And that lager would be...............an Ale !!
> 
> Screwy



Only if I told you I used an Ale yeast. If you use the right recipe, hops, yeast and temp it is possible to pick up 42.5 points in a lager/pils catergory h34r:


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## bradsbrew (16/6/10)

under said:


> I got a packet of s189 in the fridge. And a cube of doc golden.... should I................ Used pacman last cube and it was bloody great, was a hit with friends/family.



Stay with pacman


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## tazman1967 (16/6/10)

I think it would be great. What do you think the Mega Swill makers do ? Eg. Victoria Bitter, not a Bitter, a Lager. Same with most of their shite.


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## Swinging Beef (16/6/10)

Large amounts of roast.. bleargh!


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## bconnery (16/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> Are there any truely bad combinations of ingredients? Or is it just a matter of taste?
> 
> I'm getting close to FG on a "bad combo" due to not having the correct yeast and throwing caution into the wind.
> 
> ...



Actually I've had a couple of Amarillo based lagers and they weren't bad. 
From memory there's a commercial one around at the moment, Cricketers I think it is?


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## Tony (16/6/10)

I made a lager once. To no style but read up on amber malt. It said it added a nice amber hue to the beer.

Mmmmmmm an amber lager i thought  

Used weyermann pils, 5% amber, hallertau to bitter and some tetnanger at the end. fermented with W34/70 at 12 deg, and CC's for 2 or 3 weeks at 4 deg.

All you could taste was this harsh dry amber malt. Not harsh in a meaty ale but in a light delicate lager.......... punch in the face stuff.

Its the only beer i have given my dad.... and he has sampled 95% of them..... that he has actually spat out :lol: 

I dropped the gas from the keg and poured all of the 50 liters in the keg down the drain

It was not infected....... but was still god awful

NEVER use lots of amber malt in a light flavoured lager!

cheers


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## manticle (16/6/10)

Bad combinations are maybe possibly possible but bad balancing is probably more an issue.

Maybe earth/mushrooms + passionfruit (nelson and fuggles) might be odd if you used them both late but again it's as much about making it work by brewing it right - similar to fusion food. I'd never say never but I wouldn't recommend it (might try it quietly and suck up the failures) until I was confident I knew what the flavours were and what I wanted from them.


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## jimi (16/6/10)

manticle said:


> Bad combinations are maybe possibly possible but bad balancing is probably more an issue.
> 
> Bad combinations are 'definately' possibly possible  To add to manticles point, the worth of the combination also depends on our goals. Try putting a fruity ale yeast like 1968 in your pilsner wort and crossing your fingers for a urquell. You might be still very comfortable drinking the beer you produce, but as far as achieving your aims it would be a big failure. I sometimes think our biggest crime as brewers is post-rationalising and posing that since we are happy to drink what we have produced that we've done well h34r:


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## jimi (16/6/10)

bad combination = chinese hops and wort h34r: 



.... or is the dust still settling ....


to be fair I only dared use the MP, but the oily bitterness put me off the rest. I'm actually toying with the idea of applying them coffee press style so no bitterness, but that's another thread and I'm not sure if this post will survive <_<


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## jakub76 (16/6/10)

Inbalance. Lots of malty malt with not enough hops...that's a bad mix.

I made a malty ale not long ago that I thought would be great, Vienna, Maris Otter, a little pale and a touch of pilsener for sweetness. Perle hops bittering to just under 20 IBU. I thought it would be great but it was WAY too malt focused. Came out just like Montieth's Summer Ale, I hated it!


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## manticle (16/6/10)

I have experienced dry hopped tettnanger in an aussie style bitter (wrong) and biscuit malt in an aussie style bitter (not wrong per se but not right either - neither was the acetylaldehyde). Both my brews, still a nut I have to crack (aussie bitter that is).

Again though - maybe I could make either work - they just didn't in these cases.


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## marksy (16/6/10)

Once when I was younger playing on the stove I used "Thyme". I had used some lemon and lime peel to make what I thought would be a nice summer beer ready for summer. I had asked mum what else goes with lemon and lime and she suggested "Thyme". Do not ever add it to a beer. It was very overpowering and more to the point yuk.


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## browndog (16/6/10)

Any type of beer you care to name plus an unnoticed teaspoon of soduim metabisulphate will produce a beer that needs to be tipped.


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## /// (16/6/10)

Hot Caustic, thongs and an open tap. Luckily there was a pool in the immediate vicinity, unfortunately it was the middle of winter ....


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## mckenry (17/6/10)

My opinion only, but I reckon POR hops + late kettle addition = bad combination.


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## jbirbeck (17/6/10)

jimi said:


> bad combination = chinese hops and wort h34r:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've used a few of the chinese hops and I consider the MP to be very similar to Columbus...I certainly wouldn't throw a lot of columbus in to bitter unless I wanted to get a good mouth puckering. Use it as a late hop and its great. Hell I used it at 20 and 5 in a kit and beautiful. 




jakub76 said:


> Inbalance. Lots of malty malt with not enough hops...that's a bad mix.
> 
> I made a malty ale not long ago that I thought would be great, Vienna, Maris Otter, a little pale and a touch of pilsener for sweetness. Perle hops bittering to just under 20 IBU. I thought it would be great but it was WAY too malt focused. Came out just like Montieth's Summer Ale, I hated it!



a lack of balance goes the other way as well... over done hops without the malt to back it up. Of course hop heads will disagree.

Pacific Gem hops in an english bitter...that's a bad combo.


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## T.D. (17/6/10)

For me its amber malt and american hops. Particularly Amarillo. Just grate against each other I reckon.


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## zebba (17/6/10)

manticle said:


> Maybe earth/mushrooms + passionfruit (nelson and fuggles) might be odd if you used them both late but again it's as much about making it work by brewing it right - similar to fusion food. I'd never say never but I wouldn't recommend it (might try it quietly and suck up the failures) until I was confident I knew what the flavours were and what I wanted from them.


Got one in the fermenter now that has a small amount of late cascade and a big(ish) dry hop of fuggles. The intention is just a small amount of cascade will freshen it a little. Hopefully it works.


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## argon (17/6/10)

Well... I read a post just yesterday... I think from Tony... who said, (paraphrasing) "It's like eating a mars bar with a diet coke"

That is... adding Carapils with an adjunct such as rice or flaked maize. One adds body the other thins the body. So technically probably not a good combination of ingredients.


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## Fents (17/6/10)

Zebba said:


> Got one in the fermenter now that has a small amount of late cascade and a big(ish) dry hop of fuggles. The intention is just a small amount of cascade will freshen it a little. Hopefully it works.



trying to freshen up that dirty sock taste from fuggles?

cant polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter. :lol:


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## argon (17/6/10)

manticle said:


> Bad combinations are maybe possibly possible but bad balancing is probably more an issue.
> 
> Maybe earth/mushrooms + passionfruit (nelson and fuggles) might be odd if you used them both late but again it's as much about making it work by brewing it right - similar to fusion food. I'd never say never but I wouldn't recommend it (might try it quietly and suck up the failures) until I was confident I knew what the flavours were and what I wanted from them.



Actually thinking this through a bit, Rogue tend to do a lot of brews with a combo of Cascade and Willamette. And Im a big fan of their range. Now Willamette is a US hybrid of Fuggles and has a similar profile. And everyoneknows that Cascade has a floral/fruity profile one would assume that the 2 dont mix well.

Although, Rogue do qualify that the Willamette they use is Rogue Farm Free Range Willamette whatever that means so maybe it has a slightly different profile.

Willamette is described as a hybrid of the Fuggles hop that were released by the USDA in 1976. Mild having an herbal, woody, and earthy aroma. Whereas Cascade is described as Aroma: Strong spicy, floral, grapefriut character.

So it has been done I guess with a relative amount of success.


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## jbirbeck (17/6/10)

Fents said:


> cant polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter. :lol:



:icon_offtopic: yes you can... Mythbusters polish a turd


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## zebba (17/6/10)

Fents said:


> trying to freshen up that dirty sock taste from fuggles?
> 
> cant polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter. :lol:


LOL. I love my fuggles. Like, REALLY love them. All you haters can GTFO 

And seeing as the beer in question is hopefully going to be my Vic swap beer, I might dry-hop your bottle with some toenail clippings for some extra bang


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## Tony (18/6/10)

mckenry said:


> My opinion only, but I reckon POR hops + late kettle addition = bad combination.



Yes and no. 1/2g per liter at 10 min in an aussie ale is great. really hop it up and it can be a bit much. Use it corectly and it will reward. Fresh whole flowers are best!




argon said:


> Well... I read a post just yesterday... I think from Tony... who said, (paraphrasing) "It's like eating a mars bar with a diet coke"
> 
> That is... adding Carapils with an adjunct such as rice or flaked maize. One adds body the other thins the body. So technically probably not a good combination of ingredients.




Ahhhhhh i see someone is listning 

This is not going to be a bad combination. It would make beer that would be fine. I was mainly concerned with this brewer adding stuff to the the beer's ingredinets list for the sake of it. It was a lager from memory and a lager should be simple.

If you want to add body and a fine sweetness to a beer......... use carapils, and as i was told a long time ago...... under 5% is a waste of time.
If you want to thin the body and dry the beer out..... use rice.


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## Barry (18/6/10)

I am still puzzled about adding sugar for lightness and carapils for body. Seems to come up a lot for recipes for APA's, AIPA's and AI2PA's. One or the other or mash at 64oC?
Not saying it is wrong but rather two extras not needed.


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## Bizier (18/6/10)

This is absolutely personal, but I dislike when you have a certain ligher roast grain character such as pale choc / carafa 1 with hops that contribute a strong passionfruit aroma, eg galaxy. I have made one particular batch of beer that other people loved and I almost wanted to vomit on tasting it, and I have had the same experience from other homebrews and some commercial beers. That said, I love a US brown with sappy pine hops, and have rekindled a love for amarillo as a dry hop in browns after following Jamil Zainasheff's regime.


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## /// (18/6/10)

Thongs ... hot caustic... anyone??? !!!


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## dicko (18/6/10)

Imho, using cascade hops for the bittering addition in an apa is not a pleasing result.
It doesn't seem to offer the true bitterness profile to my taste.

Simcoe on the other hand has a very smooth bittering quality while still being "fruity" and is great as a bittering hop.
Another combination I think works well is EKG and Cascade with the EKG giving a smooth earthy bitterness to subdue the sickly fruit of the Cascade as a bittering addition.

I keep Cascade to the flavour and aroma hop additions only.

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (19/6/10)

/// said:


> Thongs ... hot caustic... anyone??? !!!



I got both gumboots filled up with hot caustic once...

So I'll support /// and go with the amazingly bad combo of skin + hot caustic - a pairing that you can pray you never get to experience.


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## hoohaaman (19/6/10)

I know I will get lambasted,but adding nottingham to perfectly good wort.


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## Nick JD (19/6/10)

I'm not convinced that dark lagers are a good idea, but I've probably done them wrong.


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## Bizier (19/6/10)

I am drinking JS Malt Runner now... Similar experience to my previous post.


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## manticle (19/6/10)

argon said:


> Actually thinking this through a bit, Rogue tend to do a lot of brews with a combo of Cascade and Willamette. And I'm a big fan of their range. Now Willamette is a US hybrid of Fuggles and has a similar profile. And everyoneknows that Cascade has a floral/fruity profile one would assume that the 2 don't mix well.
> 
> Although, Rogue do qualify that the Willamette they use is "Rogue Farm Free Range Willamette" whatever that means so maybe it has a slightly different profile.
> 
> ...




that's what I mean. There's probably almost anything you can think of that could be done well - same as with cooking. I've had vietnamese mint sorbet with raspberry chilli syrup that was a taste sensation. In the wrong hands it could be revolting. Same thing goes for chocolate venison.

In order to make a weird combination work (and almost any weird combination can probably be made to work) you need to understand each ingredient and what you want from it. Centennial late/dry hops _might_ work in a bo-pils (actual example pulled from my arse) by someone who had an idea of what they are doing and deliberately pushed the envelope to create it.

I just see a big difference between the average cook/brewer throwing shit together to see what happens and someone making a deliberate, albeit wacky decision.

NB: Sometimes throwing shit together does work, most often it results in 'why did I do that?'

Classic combinations, whether in cooking or brewing are the best way to learn about flavour combos. When you really know your stuff you realise that the coffee/choc characteristic of wattleseed might sit superbly with bacon in a dish, or a touch of cinammon might lift a pork dish or the citrus nature of target might fit well into an APA (only some examples pulled from my arse) but you get to know that by brewing an english style with target or cooking desserts with cinammon and apples.


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## brett mccluskey (30/6/10)

personally my palate hasnt got any time for citrussy(cascade,etc) and dark grains in stouts and porters.but obviously they work for some brewers and drinkers. Manticle, your comments on flavour and cooking are SPOT ON! People should take notice of this. :chug:


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## thesunsettree (30/6/10)

quote - Classic combinations, whether in cooking or brewing are the best way to learn about flavour combos. When you really know your stuff you realise that the coffee/choc characteristic of wattleseed might sit superbly with bacon in a dish, or a touch of cinammon might lift a pork dish or the citrus nature of target might fit well into an APA (only some examples pulled from my arse) but you get to know that by brewing an english style with target or cooking desserts with cinammon and apples. 


shit, i hope your right about the target in an apa cos the other day i accidently dry hopped an apa with target when i meant to use amarillo (yes i was pissed, again B) ). filtered it today so will find out soon  

cheers
matt


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## Pete2501 (30/6/10)

An amber ale with citrus hops. I've done it twice now and it's totally out of character.


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## bum (30/6/10)

Pete2501 said:


> An amber ale with citrus hops. I've done it twice now and it's totally out of character.


 
No one tell the Americans...


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## warra48 (30/6/10)

Any beer with Black Malt.
Horrible to my taste.


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