# Apa Base Grain



## berto (26/1/06)

OK, ive done a large search on different APA recipes through the site with the look to making one in the near future. The question i have though. Is which is my base grain for this beer? Ive noticed some recipes are using pils as the base, and others using pale ale malt. 
What are the pros and cons of each?
Does one allow the other to accentuate the hops more?
Im looking at going cascade right through, maybe centennial or chinook for bittering though, not too sure yet. Still doing a search through here.


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## sosman (26/1/06)

berto said:


> OK, ive done a large search on different APA recipes through the site with the look to making one in the near future. The question i have though. Is which is my base grain for this beer? Ive noticed some recipes are using pils as the base, and others using pale ale malt.
> What are the pros and cons of each?
> Does one allow the other to accentuate the hops more?
> Im looking at going cascade right through, maybe centennial or chinook for bittering though, not too sure yet. Still doing a search through here.
> [post="104772"][/post]​


Berto try one of each - they will both work. I use ale malt and a fair swag of munich (probably a bit high for some people).

My favourite recipe so far is http://brewiki.org/brewsta/recipes/?sys=si..._7.01.beer=view
but I have never tried pils malt in an APA.


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## berto (26/1/06)

Thanks sosman. 
You need a section in there where you can add your thoughts on the beer once finished. I like the touch with the pre brew changes from brew to brew. 

IM leaning towards the ale malt, purely because im making a pale ale. Stupid reasoning really. ONly other problem is i dont have amarillo, and everyone is saying that cascade, centennial, and chinook are all crap for bittering.


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## warrenlw63 (26/1/06)

Berto

I've always found a good compromise is to go 50/50 Pils and Ale and the usual amount of crystal. Seems to suit the style well.

I've added Munich or Vienna to the grainbill too on the odd occasion.

Warren -


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## Ross (26/1/06)

berto said:


> ONly other problem is i dont have amarillo, and everyone is saying that cascade, centennial, and chinook are all crap for bittering.
> [post="104777"][/post]​



Nothing wrong with those hops for bittering Berto... Chinook I admit has a fairly coarse bitterness that finishes a bit rough for some, but then there are others who swear bye it... I've used it as my bittering hop in my American Brown & it's been very popular with everyone who's tried it so far...

cheers Ross...


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## ozbrewer (26/1/06)

I would have thought the answer is simple...l.if you want to make an American Ale.use a 2 row ale malt...why bother with the problems of DMS if you dont need to


Ive used ale in Lager...and Pils in Ale...and its just not right


Stick to the basics and you cant go wrong...malters spent alot of time making the right type of malt for the right brew....trust them


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## Trent (26/1/06)

Gotta agree with ozbrewer
I recently made a porter with pils malt cause it was all I had, and it has turned out nowhere near as full bodied as usual, more lager-ish, if you will. I try and stick to Maris Otter for my ales, just cause it is what I have always used, and my one or 2 attempts with other pale malts werent as good. As far as bittering with the 3 "c"'s, I have heard that they lend a real grapefruit flavour that can be cloying, though I havent used them myself, and Ross has obviously had a different experience. I HAVE used amarillo for bittering (drank my last bottle tonight at 10 months old), and it definitely has a more grapefruit flavour/aroma that is a little cloying. I also found it was a rather rough bitterness when young (1-2 months). I would recommend using something a little more neutral in flavour, like Perle (they bitter SNPA with that) or northern brewer for bittering, and go with the citrusy hops for flavour and aroma. Thats my opinion only, though, so make it how you will. Hope it turns out very nice
All the best
Trent


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## warrenlw63 (26/1/06)

ozbrewer said:


> ...why bother with the problems of DMS if you dont need to
> 
> 
> [post="104785"][/post]​



So Ozbrewer you're saying you get DMS in your lagers? :unsure: 

Warren -


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## Malnourished (26/1/06)

ozbrewer said:


> Stick to the basics and you cant go wrong...malters spent alot of time making the right type of malt for the right brew....trust them


I don't think there's as strong a relationship between ale yeasts and ale malts, and lager yeasts and pils malts as you do. IMO, a witbier, tripel, saison, alt, or Klsch needs a pils malt. When maltsters say "ale" I reckon they're really saying "English ale."

When it comes to American styles I reckon it all depends on your personal preference. Mine is strongly in the pils malt camp, but in my experience most prefer the stronger, maltier presence of English pale malts. For instance, I find Emerson's APA not to my taste because the rich, toasty English malt character clashes with the American hops. I prefer a leaner malt character in my American-style stuff.


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## ozbrewer (26/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> ozbrewer said:
> 
> 
> > ...why bother with the problems of DMS if you dont need to
> ...




Do you have a problem reading??? Did i say i have DMS problems...or did i say why bother with the problems of DMS if you dont need to....Ive been brewing for long enough now to know how to deal with such problems as DMS.........instead of waisting your time posting such crap, read somthing yourself and work out how you can deal with it


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## Gerard_M (26/1/06)

I am no great fan of APA's, but the last one I made was a great drop. It picked up a few awards, I was really impressed at how good it looked in the glass.The grain bill worked out to be
JW Trad Ale 87%
JW Wheat 9%
JW Amber 4%

As for using Ale or Pils malts, I made a heap of Porters with Pils as a base, and there never seemed to be anything but nice things said about them, or the Choccy ice creams that came with them  
Cheers
Gerard


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## Aaron (26/1/06)

I doubt it is perfectly to style but I use light Munich as my base malt with just a touch of wheat. Then I use Amarillo right through for bittering and finishing. I also use a non standard yeast in 1318. Experiment and play with your own recipes. Mine was far off what would be considered traditional and it picked up second at AABC.

Regardless of anything else just make something you can enjoy.


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## big d (27/1/06)

being australia day there is only one answer.
joe white maltings traditional ale malt.what you add to change it is up to you and your flavour preferences.

cheers
big d


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## wee stu (27/1/06)

as long as it has heaps of cascade or amarillo, does it really matter which malt, if any, it has  :lol:


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## Kai (27/1/06)

I think stu's hit the nail on the noggin, the hops are probably more important than the malt in an APA. So long as you are not hopping to heavily I think you can make the grain bill as light as you like. Or if you like your beers out of balance, hop it up anyway.


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## T.D. (27/1/06)

I can't brew enough APAs - love 'em. But in my opinion pils malt would suit the style beautifully. If I was brewing an American Amber Ale then that's a different story - I think that would benefit from the slightly fuller maltier flavour of ale malt. But I reckon the best APAs are the ones that aren't overly malty. I like them to be crisp and clean tasting. I think it is a really refreshing style when brewed like this. Ever since I started AG brewing, I have progressively cut back on the crystal to a point now where I only really add around 150g. To this date I have used ale malt in all of my APAs but for my next one I will use pils. Can't wait to see the result. I've brewed plenty of beers with pils malt though, and given that, I can't see how the result is going to be at all disappointing.


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## warrenlw63 (27/1/06)

ozbrewer said:


> Do you have a problem reading??? Did i say i have DMS problems...or did i say why bother with the problems of DMS if you dont need to....Ive been brewing for long enough now to know how to deal with such problems as DMS.........instead of waisting your time posting such crap, read somthing yourself and work out how you can deal with it
> [post="104796"][/post]​



Nah mate, I don't have a problem with reading. You obviously have one with your attitude though :angry: 

My opinions are based on experience as opposed to your sweeping generalization old boy.  I've made APA's with Ale Malt, Pils Malt & a combination of both. Personal choice is for the combination of Pils and Ale. The choice is purely up to the individual. 

Maybe you shouldn't post such crap. Maybe you post under the influence of Dutch Courage? Get a bit more experience yourself mate. I've been doing this for 9 years. I feel qualifed to comment you tool. <_< 

BTW Excuse my anger anybody else. I didn't start it.  

Warren -


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## Duff (27/1/06)

Here here..

Anyway Berto, I've made APA's with either Pils or Ale as the base and it depends on your taste. The Pils provides a lighter body which you may enjoy as it could accentuate the hop flavour, while Ale malt gives a bit more body and maltiness which you may prefer. Watch using too much Cascade in it though and it can become very grapefruity in flavour, but for my next one I'm going to try Chinook or Simcoe as the bittering with Cascade or Amarillo as the flavour. It's down to your personal taste, but I echo Gerard_M's comments, his Porter made with Pils as the base was very impressive.

Cheers.


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## warrenlw63 (27/1/06)

Also another thread on this forum more or less beating the same drum.

Hope this helps. :beerbang: 

Amarillo APA Tips

Warren -


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## ozbrewer (27/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> ozbrewer said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a problem reading??? Did i say i have DMS problems...or did i say why bother with the problems of DMS if you dont need to....Ive been brewing for long enough now to know how to deal with such problems as DMS.........instead of waisting your time posting such crap, read somthing yourself and work out how you can deal with it
> ...



No MAte I dnt have a attitude problem...My oppinions are also based on experience, My comment was very valid....as i said, why deal with DMS and sucvh problems with PIls malt if you dont need to.....And no i was not posting under the influance of dutch courage.....where do you come up with such crap.......oh me get some experience...ok ill do that....i wont bother telling you how long i have brewed for....i dont need to justify that to you or anyone else


"I feel qualifed to comment you tool."...........i think thats a little personall......i think comment like that can cause larger problems...and i suggest you dont do that again......




Now apart from that as i said use pale malt if you can get it....you wouldent use vegimite to make a jam sandwich would you........if your going to use Pils, read up on what SSM and DMS can do and work to get it out of the brew, add some xrystal or munich grains to up the color some, and get the maltyness back that the pils malt does not have


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## neonmeate (27/1/06)

i like the 50/50 ale and pils malt combo. but i usually just brew APAs with whatever base malt i've got to hand - adjusting the specialty grains accordingly.

made one once with all vienna and a little bit of amber malt and crystal and it was delicious - a bit darker than usual for an APA, but it had lovely malt flavour and body.


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## warrenlw63 (27/1/06)

ozbrewer said:


> "I feel qualifed to comment you tool."...........i think thats a little personall......i think comment like that can cause larger problems...and i suggest you dont do that again......you may not like the outcome
> [post="104849"][/post]​



Aw geez and your's wasn't? <_< Describe the outcome and/or idle threat.  

I've said enough. This is getting boring. :lol: 

Warren -


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (27/1/06)

I have brewed APA's with Joe White Ale malt, Barrett and Burston's Ale, Powells Ale and Bairds MO and for what it's worth I prefer the Aussie malts. They seem to allow the hops to play a more major role in the beer without being overly malty which is what I think characterise an APA.
As for your hops choice, I agree with Chinook/Centennial/Simcoe for bittering and the same plus Cascade or Amarillo for flavour and aroma.

Never tried the pils malt root.

C&B
TDA


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## Ross (27/1/06)

berto said:


> ONly other problem is i dont have amarillo, and everyone is saying that cascade, centennial, and chinook are all crap for bittering.
> [post="104777"][/post]​



Berto,

I don't use bittering hops, as such, in my apa's any longer, as I prefer big flavour/aroma additions - I do 2 additions 20 mins & 5 mins + dry hop. No over powering grapefruit, whatever hop you use (touch wood)...  

Costs a bit more in hops mind  ...


Cheers Ross


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## KoNG (27/1/06)

C'mon kids play nice.... no need for threats and the like!!

APA's by their very nature are known for the hop variety used, i dont think it would matter what base malt you used if you dont nail the hop schedule...


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## Gough (27/1/06)

Jeez, who'd have thought a discussion about base malts could almost lead to a blue? <_< Threats aren't needed around here...

FWIW I like the ale malts, either MO or JW Trad in my APAs. Not much Xtal, but a bit of Munich and wheat makes up my standard grain bill. I like a decent malty backing to handle the hops well, but each to their own  Part of the good thing about this 'style' really I guess is that it gives a fair bit of room for interpretation compared to some others. 

Shawn.


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## johnno (27/1/06)

T.D. said:


> But I reckon the best APAs are the ones that aren't overly malty. I like them to be crisp and clean tasting. I think it is a really refreshing style when brewed like this. [post="104829"][/post]​



TD
I made quite a few Apa's using Powells malts Last year.
I made them with Pils and ale malt and also 50/50 combinations.
If you like your Apa's like that then using the Powells Pils will do it.
I too prefer them a bit more thin bodied and crisper. 
I reckon the hops come through better like that.

johnno


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## ozbrewer (27/1/06)

Ross my next APA will be hopped that way with Amarillo and Simcoe, from all reports is just a fantastic way to get the hops in the beer


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## T.D. (27/1/06)

johnno said:


> TD
> I made quite a few Apa's using Powells malts Last year.
> I made them with Pils and ale malt and also 50/50 combinations.
> If you like your Apa's like that then using the Powells Pils will do it.
> ...



Funnily enough, my next APA will be made using Powells Pils as the base malt. I only have one more brew worth of Powells Ale and that's going into an Amber Ale I have planned in a few weeks. Then I'll be brewing everything - ales and lagers - using Powells pils, before I order any more grain.

Just an aside, I have found that a 50/50 ale/pils grain bill makes a great James Squire Golden Ale style of beer. Perhaps with a dab of wheat and/or carapils too (which would, of course, nolonger make it a 50/50 ale/pils grain bill!  )


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## Weizguy (27/1/06)

Kai said:


> I think stu's hit the nail on the noggin, the hops are probably more important than the malt in an APA. So long as you are not hopping to heavily I think you can make the grain bill as light as you like. Or if you like your beers out of balance, hop it up anyway.
> [post="104816"][/post]​


Kai, was arriving home from the Sydney BDO (Big Day Out) at about the time you posted this item.

I agree with Stu and your good self that you can vary a lot a make a good APA. I believe that style guidlines are optional, and U should go with your tastebuds, when brewing for yourself and not for comps.
Sometimes this involves testing/experimenting/tasting the beer brewed with both malts.

For myself, the flavour of pils is nice, but can become cloying in an APA unless you "balance toward the hop". OTOH, when using ale malt, you can more easily balance the hops, without having to flavour &/or bitter higher to get the balance right.

I have only used JW pils or ale malt and maybe a combo might be nice, but ya gotta get the hops right first, as has been mentioned by many. Maris O may also work for U, but U definitely get the Brit malt flavour, so depends on ur taste (again).

As with all opinions, this is subjective, is mine, and yours may vary.

As the Brits say: Suck it and see.

Best of luck, as the APA style I find to be fantastic, delicious and open to interpretation. I have made some that came out very bitter, or too dark etc, yet all still eminently drinkable.
BTW, I'm jealous as I've been hanging on to some grain for a few weeks now, waiting for the opportunity to make my first ag SFPA. With apologies to Jayse, I have been making these as all-extract-based and extract/partials, while trying get a handle on the hops, as I find they can be a little tricky, yet all delicious.

Seth


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## Darren (27/1/06)

I have been away for 5 days and look what happens. Come on Warren you know it is my job to make the Queenslanders angry 


cheers
Darren


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## mje1980 (27/1/06)

I've tried an all simcoe pale ale, and for all the hype about "low cohumulone", it was still a bit harsh to my taste. And half the ibu's were from FWH. I have found with the us hops that they can be harsh, but maybe thats just me. Willamette is probably my fave, although i do prefer fuggle to EKG. 

Just my .02 c worth. 

Brew on ( peacefully )


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## Kai (27/1/06)

That's surprising, all the beers I have made with simcoe for bittering have had silky-smooth bitterness. Chinook, on the other hand..


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## jimmyjack (27/1/06)

> I don't use bittering hops, as such, in my apa's any longer, as I prefer big flavour/aroma additions - I do 2 additions 20 mins & 5 mins + dry hop. No over powering grapefruit, whatever hop you use (touch wood)...



Is this what the yanks call hop bursting??? FWIW Never tried Pilsner malt in an APA but am keen to give it a go just to see what the flavour outcome will be. My most recent APA was FWH (thanx for tip Ross) with flavour additions every 10 Minutes with the biggest additions at the end . I am hoping that will keep alot of the Citrus aroma around.

Cheers, 

JJ


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## Jye (27/1/06)

> I do 2 additions 20 mins & 5 mins + dry hop



I have made 2 APAs hopped like this and they have been awesome :beerbang:


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## Batz (27/1/06)

Darren said:


> I have been away for 5 days and look what happens. Come on Warren you know it is my job to make the Queenslanders angry
> 
> 
> cheers
> ...




Yep your input is needed Darren , all out punch up not too far off here !
I bet everyones reading this post , little fresh hatred always makes for an interesting post :blink: :huh: 

Batz h34r:


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## big d (27/1/06)

some of us actually like chinook kai.  

cheers
big d


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## Kai (27/1/06)

I'm just a big girl, big d. I like silk more than sandpaper.


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## Stuster (27/1/06)

Another one for Chinook. :beerbang:


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## Jazman (27/1/06)

i also think southern cross goes well in an apa and that is a high alpha hop from nz and u cant get it from lhbs


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## Weizguy (27/1/06)

Me three for Chinook. It's a bit of an unforgiving master, but when it works, it's powerful.
Especially like it at 100 IBUs-(ish) in the Arrogant Bastard clone; and with about 500g of dark crystal (which you should never do coz it might scare U, but I'm OK coz I'm arrogant).

I'm due to make this again soon. *Show me the Arrogance!!!*.

Seth


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## Mr Bond (27/1/06)

Kai said:


> I'm just a big girl, big d. I like silk more than sandpaper.
> [post="105031"][/post]​



Hang on I'm a little confused here Kai,are we talkin beer or some weird underwear fetish?


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## wee stu (27/1/06)

FWIW, and somewhat more on thread than some recent comments, I tend to use Barret and Burston's Galaxy malt for APAs. Highly modified, low colour, neutral, economical malt in many ways equally at home in a lighter ale or a lager. 

Been known to bitter a few with Ahtanum as well. 

In fact, I'll be using this combination in my next one this Sunday.

awrabest, stu


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## warrenlw63 (27/1/06)

Provided it doesn't go anywhere past the first addition I find Target to be a good bittering hop too. Even in... gulp! APAs. B) 

Firmly zips up asbestos flamesuit. h34r: 

Warren -


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## wee stu (28/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Provided it doesn't go anywhere past the first addition I find Target to be a good bittering hop too. Even in... gulp! APAs. B)
> 
> Firmly zips up asbestos flamesuit. h34r:
> 
> ...



Must be the night for terrible confessions. I have been known to use target (with ahtanum) as the first addition in my mongrel AIPAs.

If it has american, ale and pale in the title, irrespective of order, or whether other descriptors are used, there is only one rule: there are no rules  

awrabest, stu


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## warrenlw63 (28/1/06)

Looks like we'll both be doin' a season in purgatory Stu. :lol: 

How dare you use Galaxy... Sinner! :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## wee stu (28/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Looks like we'll both be doin' a season in purgatory Stu. :lol:
> 
> How dare you use Galaxy... Sinner! :beerbang:
> 
> ...



Perhaps I am just giving the style the respect it deserves :blink: ?

Whatever, if you are making an APA, please make sure the late aroma additions and any dry hopping additions are as fresh as you have. My last attempt suffered considerably as a result of using older hops in the late additions.


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