# 3068 Starter - Sulfur Central



## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Ive had some sulfur problems with 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen. As normal i culture up a starter from a slant. 

Typically i fill the slant vial and shake, 24-48hours or once activity has ceased, i dump this into 200ml of wort on the stirplate for 24 hours then topup to 400ml. Once this ferments out i crash chill, decant and stepup as required. 

(ive had to modify my stepups because my erlenmyers got smashed and im using a fowels varcola jar.  i used to go 50ml, 200ml, 700ml)

Im now at the 400ml stage, I smelt it before crash chilling this morning and all i got is BIIIIIG sulfur. The starter smelt ok lastnight, just this monring after 12 hours or so more on the plate is gone sulfury. It semlls like those custard tarts you see at yum cha. Tonight once its chilled i'll taste to see if its got any funk but my main reason for posting was i had masive sulfur the last time i used this yeast from a fresh smack pack that was grown in a 1L starter. The slant i have is from an earlier smack pack which didnt exhibit sulfur. Also when i reslanted the yeast all of the vials smelt like a delicious weizen when venting. :icon_drool2: 

The yeast has been growing at ambients 17-18deg~, using wort from my weizen ive got cubed ready to go (extra wort from the tun). The wort was fresh i just wonder if this is typical of this yeast when its stressed during growth or temperature?

Maybe zwickel knows something? Maybe this is normal during growth for this strain?! I just dont want to end up pitching the correct amount of yeast and still end up with a sulfury mess like i did with my last weizen.

Cheers! 
:icon_cheers:


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## WSC (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> Ive had some sulfur problems with 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen. As normal i culture up a starter from a slant.
> 
> Typically i fill the slant vial and shake, 24-48hours or once activity has ceased, i dump this into 200ml of wort on the stirplate for 24 hours then topup to 400ml. Once this ferments out i crash chill, decant and stepup as required.
> 
> ...



Keen to see others thoughts, I'm going to pitch my 3068 tonight.........first time ever and it's for ocktoberfest party late in Oct. If you get the sulphur is there a way to get rid of it etc etc.


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## Pennywise (2/9/10)

I get the same from all my starters of 3068, and I have had it in the early stages of fermentation when fermented in the upper range (21-22). Have never had issues with it comming through in the beer though, and have never done a CC or higher temp rest with 3068, just good old pitch and ferment for 2 weeks


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## beerbrewer76543 (2/9/10)

I've had some sulphur in the early stages of ferment but it dissipates with time in the fermenter. The last one I brewed had a 1L starter pitched at 12*C then fermented at 18*C... Turned out nice, although the banana is quite subtle so I'm not sure if a higher temp would have helped pronounce it a bit more... Beer was in the fermenter for 2 weeks I think :icon_cheers:


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## Pennywise (2/9/10)

3068 has BIG bannana potential


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## MeLoveBeer (2/9/10)

Excuse the ignorance (my knowledge is fairly basic with yeast), but aren't sulphur smells normally caused by yeast autolysis? I would have thought that it would be an indicator of either viability or fermentation outside of preferred temperature range (temp range seems okay to me though)


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## Nick JD (2/9/10)

In my experience 3068 produces sulphur when overpitched. If the krausen is trying to get out of the fermenter, it'll be sulphury, I've had one that was still a bit whiffy in the bottle and I don't want to wait for weizen to clean up - I wanna drink it early. 

I got fed up with cleaning up (16L in a 25L fermenter and it was still making a mess) so I underpitched one, it struggled a bit and the krausen stayed under the gladwrap for the first time ever - no sulphur and massive banana cake flavour.

Now I always under pitch 3068 (I've always fermented at slightly over 20C).


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Excuse the ignorance (my knowledge is fairly basic with yeast), but aren't sulphur smells normally caused by yeast autolysis? I would have thought that it would be an indicator of either viability or fermentation outside of preferred temperature range (temp range seems okay to me though)




In some instances sulfer can be the sign of stressing yeast (underpitching with lagers) or an infection coming on (hence why im going to taste it tonight.) Some yeasts also typically exhibit sulfer notes, e.g. Kolsch yasts.

Autolysis = vegemite or other rotten yest derived flavours. I also notice a dirty muddy astringency as well with autolysis. Some would also say fecal matter. :icon_drool2: 

or is that :icon_vomit:


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## Pennywise (2/9/10)

Nick, try fermenting at 17-18 if you want less bannana. I ferment most of my 3068's at 20-21 because I like the bannana but will be doing one for a comp soon and will be fermenting at 18 to balance it out a bit more. Might help with the sulphur too


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> In my experience 3068 produces sulphur when overpitched. If the krausen is trying to get out of the fermenter, it'll be sulphury, I've had one that was still a bit whiffy in the bottle and I don't want to wait for weizen to clean up - I wanna drink it early.
> I got fed up with cleaning up (16L in a 25L fermenter and it was still making a mess) so I underpitched one, it struggled a bit and the krausen stayed under the gladwrap for the first time ever - no sulphur and massive banana cake flavour.
> Now I always under pitch 3068 (I've always fermented at slightly over 20C).



Funny, wyeast actually recommend slightly underpitching this strain, especially when repitching on their commercial yeast pitching rates/recommendation page (i assume this is a tad less than 6million cells per ml of wort which is their normal rates for 1.050OG ales). 

My calculations using the typical 750,000 * 23L * deg P gives me around 9.3million cells per ml. 30-40% more than wyeast recommend as their base rate.

Either way, if shes not infected i'll be doing a 500ml stepup. assuming im at around 1 smack pack at the moment, that will get me on the ballpark of the 9million cells range. If its around the size of 1/2 a smack pack, i'll be on course to around 6million cells. which is closer to wyeasts recommendation.


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## Weizguy (2/9/10)

I have experienced similar issues with W3638 (Wyeast Bavarian wheat yeast).
You should taste beer from the starter before considering pitching.
I have thrown the yeast out if it's not producing the right flavours.

Weizen yeasts are recommended to be be used only 2-3 times if not top-cropping.

Currently fermenting a weizen with W3638 that produced the right flavours in the starter.
Hope to do well in a comp with it, but no point counting my chickens b4 they hatch


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I have experienced similar issues with W3638 (Wyeast Bavarian wheat yeast).
> You should taste beer from the starter before considering pitching.
> I have thrown the yeast out if it's not producing the right flavours.



Glad you chimed in les! :icon_cheers: 

Im building it up rom a slant so the culutres as pure as i can get it. At this point i dont think its infected and was smelling normal up until this point but anything can happen i guess. I'll be having a taster tonight to see where it stands. if its just sulfury i guess i'll decant and get it going on the stirplate again and see if it throws anything else abnormal. Hopefully by bedtime it should be mighty active and tell me wether or not its going to be sulfur laden or typical aromas as expected with weizen yeasts.

I did a little reading before, even braukiaser (braukaiser.com) has reported sulfur production from this strain with adequate pitching rates. hmmmm, it might be something typical of this strain.


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## Dazza_devil (2/9/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I have experienced similar issues with W3638 (Wyeast Bavarian wheat yeast).
> You should taste beer from the starter before considering pitching.
> I have thrown the yeast out if it's not producing the right flavours.
> 
> ...




My last WY3638 threw sulphur big time. The starter smelled fine but around a couple of days into fermentation it started to pong. After 2 weeks in the fermenter the sulphur had almost dispersed and beer ended up OK after a month or so in the bottle.
This thread has me a bit worried about the viablilty of my samples of 3638 that were taken from a starter built from the smackpack around 8 months ago. Since the last one threw sulphur perhaps it's time for a fresh smackpack. I hoped to be putting in a hefe within the next couple of weeks using a starter built from my stored samples but a fresh pack is beginning to look like a safer option. Sulphur in a Weizenbock ferment is one thing but in a hefe, that's another.
A healthy looking, smelling and tasting starter isn't going to guarantee a sulphurless ferment so I'm not sure if my sample caused the last pong or underpitching was the culprit.


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## white.grant (2/9/10)

Typically I reuse the yeast from a single smack pack of 3068 5-6 times, typically I brew 2-3 hefes, then a dunkel, followed by a weizenbock and then a gose. I get some subtle but detectable sulphur on the first and sometimes second pitches, after that it's much cleaner.

cheers

grant


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## Weizguy (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> Glad you chimed in les! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Im building it up rom a slant so the culutres as pure as i can get it. At this point i dont think its infected and was smelling normal up until this point but anything can happen i guess. I'll be having a taster tonight to see where it stands. if its just sulfury i guess i'll decant and get it going on the stirplate again and see if it throws anything else abnormal. Hopefully by bedtime it should be mighty active and tell me wether or not its going to be sulfur laden or typical aromas as expected with weizen yeasts.
> 
> I did a little reading before, even braukiaser (braukaiser.com) has reported sulfur production from this strain with adequate pitching rates. hmmmm, it might be something typical of this strain.


You will find that sulfur seems to be produced to the exclusion of esters.

funky weirdo weizen yeasts


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> You will find that sulfur seems to be produced to the exclusion of esters.
> 
> funky weirdo weizen yeasts



but i was getting weizen characters early. Hmm, so you recon sulfur will continue and no weizen esters? Or they are simply masked by rotten eggs? :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> but i was getting weizen characters early. Hmm, so you recon sulfur will continue and no weizen esters? Or they are simply masked by rotten eggs? :icon_cheers:



I've found underpitching produces mega banana more so than playing with temperature and I agree that more sulphur = less banana ester. 

At a guess, less oxygen might also help. I think 3068 likes to be slapped around a bit.


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> I've found underpitching produces mega banana more so than playing with temperature and I agree that more sulphur = less banana ester.
> At a guess, less oxygen might also help. I think 3068 likes to be slapped around a bit.




The problem is im after clove, not banana. Stressing the yeast something i want to avoid if i can so the worlds most gentle pour from a cube to the fermentor is out of the question. Heck i dont even think its possible! :icon_chickcheers: 

I think the suck it and see approach is going to be fitting. Heck, its not like im trying to place in VICBREW or anything.


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## Nick JD (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> The problem is im after clove, not banana. Stressing the yeast something i want to avoid if i can so the worlds most gentle pour from a cube to the fermentor is out of the question. Heck i dont even think its possible! :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> I think the suck it and see approach is going to be fitting. Heck, its not like im trying to place in VICBREW or anything.



WB06 and a teaspoon of ground cloves and it tastes like licking your lips after taking a drag on a Kretek cigarette.


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## manticle (2/9/10)

Which sounds horrible. Clove esters in a wheat beer are dry, subtle and refreshing. Ground clove sounds like it would be a bit mouth puckering and my memories of kreteks are unpleasant. Smelling them now makes me want to gag.

I know my last hefe (while ago now fourstar) had a balance of clove and banana (someone also picked a bit of pineapple in it). Not sure which bit contributed to it - single decoction, ferulic acid rest and regular pitching amount, fermented at 17 degrees so rest steps, ferment temps, decoction or combo of any of those.

I'm sure les or zwickel will know the low down on getting the yeast to give up its lovely, clovey secrets.

Can't remember if mine gave much sulphur (and think I'd remember if it did) - virgin 3068 from smack pack built into some kind of starter (probably - I rarely pitch straight from smack pack but can't remember)


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## Nick JD (2/9/10)

manticle said:


> Which sounds horrible.



Different strokes, Mantickle. It's actually quite nice if you love cloves and that smell of Indo. 

I find myself brewing hefes now for tangy banana. 3068 is a doozy at that.


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## manticle (2/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Different strokes, Mantickle.



Appreciate that. Just pretty sure that 4 star is wanting to use his current starter of 3068 to push esters so adding clove and using a completely different yeast seems a bit off base.


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Different strokes, Mantickle. It's actually quite nice if you love cloves and that smell of Indo.
> 
> I find myself brewing hefes now for tangy banana. 3068 is a doozy at that.




If i wanted an analgesic with my beer i'd simply pop a few codeine.

* Havnt you heard of the bloke who dumped a whole jar of cloves into his stout wort when he heard 3-4 wasnt enough. Ended up drinking a pint and couldn't get off his chair!


* urban legend but would be pretty funny!


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## pk.sax (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> If i wanted an analgesic with my beer i'd simply pop a few codeine.
> 
> * Havnt you heard of the bloke who dumped a whole jar of cloves into his stout wort when he heard 3-4 wasnt enough. Ended up drinking a pint and couldn't get off his chair!
> 
> ...



ROFLMAO.. I just laughed hard.. and it hurts cuz I'm sick... lol... this place gets better every beer.


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> ROFLMAO.. I just laughed hard.. and it hurts cuz I'm sick... lol... this place gets better every beer.



The first time i read that i had to go and get the spray and wipe to clean up the mess all over the desk. :icon_cheers: 

beer out your nose is bad Mmmmkay!

anyway, the starter still stinks but tastes like a typical weizen. i dumped the fermented liquid and added 500ml of fresh wort. the yeast looked really clean. think dense and chalk white. seems really healthy to me. im hoping it starts as i expect and come tomorrow arvo if it smells like eggs, i'll be visiting G&G for a fresh smackpack. Lets hope she's good.


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## Nick JD (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> The first time i read that i had to go and get the spray and wipe to clean up the mess all over the desk. :icon_cheers:
> 
> beer out your nose is bad Mmmmkay!
> 
> anyway, the starter still stinks but tastes like a typical weizen. i dumped the fermented liquid and added 500ml of fresh wort. the yeast looked really clean. think dense and chalk white. seems really healthy to me. im hoping it starts as i expect and come tomorrow arvo if it smells like eggs, i'll be visiting G&G for a fresh smackpack. Lets hope she's good.



You'll be dumping healthy yeast ... a starter by definition is a massive overpitch!


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## pk.sax (2/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> You'll be dumping healthy yeast ... a starter by definition is a massive overpitch!



would adding nutrient to starters have an effect on the quality of yeast gotten (and sulphur smells)?

I ask because when I used some of the EB-1118 wine yeast on a small batch of cider, I just used a tiny amount of yeast and made a smallish starter (more of rehydrating it than growing it). The end result was a very sulphuric smelling cider that cleared right up if I let the glass stand half a minute.

At the same time, some of that yeast infected a clean new bottle of apple juice on bottling day and THAT one has a far lower sulphuric smell which actually cleared out the first time I opened the bottle after 8-9 days. Guessing there was just enough nutrient in there for the tiny amt of yeast that slipped in and since this one was pasteurized juice, there were NO competing yeasts.... could very much be a factor.


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## AndrewQLD (2/9/10)

A good way to get strong clove in your Weizen is a 42 Ferulic acid rest for 15 minutes followed by a 55 protein rest and then your Sacch rest as usual.
I stopped using the ferulic acid rest as the clove was just too strong for my taste.

Andrew


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## manticle (2/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> would adding nutrient to starters have an effect on the quality of yeast gotten (and sulphur smells)?
> 
> I ask because when I used some of the EB-1118 wine yeast on a small batch of cider, I just used a tiny amount of yeast and made a smallish starter (more of rehydrating it than growing it). The end result was a very sulphuric smelling cider that cleared right up if I let the glass stand half a minute.
> 
> At the same time, some of that yeast infected a clean new bottle of apple juice on bottling day and THAT one has a far lower sulphuric smell which actually cleared out the first time I opened the bottle after 8-9 days. Guessing there was just enough nutrient in there for the tiny amt of yeast that slipped in and since this one was pasteurized juice, there were NO competing yeasts.... could very much be a factor.




Cider pushes sulphur production anyway in my experience - more so if you use sulphites (for obvious reasons) but even without. Conditioning in secondary and cold conditioning have been more than enough for me to remove it in non sulphited versions. Sulphites are devil's dung anyway.

Not sure I agree with Nick's definition of a starter as a massive overpitch but I could be wrong.

@Andrew QLD - I did the ferulic acid rest for the one I mentioned so that's probably the key.


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## Fourstar (2/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> You'll be dumping healthy yeast ... a starter by definition is a massive overpitch!



qu? :blink: 

and a non starter/using 1/5th of a smackpack is a surefire way to stress the yeast and produce unwanted esters.

i'd prefer the starter.


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## AndrewQLD (2/9/10)

manticle said:


> @Andrew QLD - I did the ferulic acid rest for the one I mentioned so that's probably the key.



Ahh, sorry Manticle I missed that, it certainly does increase the clovey phenols.

Andrew


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## manticle (2/9/10)

No need to be sorry - your post clarified why mine worked out with a good clove balance.

I remember reading about it at the time which is why I did it (may have also got some advice from zwickel and I think Screwtop) but not being a regular brewer of weizens I can only remember the process and results rather than all the whys and wherefores.


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## Nick JD (2/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> qu? :blink:
> 
> and a non starter/using 1/5th of a smackpack is a surefire way to stress the yeast and produce unwanted esters.
> 
> i'd prefer the starter.



Do the yeast know they are in a starter? Did you put a sign on the side saying, "Don't worry about the overcrowding fellas, this is only the first step! Next, when there's twice as many of you, I'll jame you into some fresh sugaz and you can crowd up again."

Then you step it up and again they are experiencing a massive overpitch, hence the sulphur. 2c.

I'm not saying don't make a starter, I'm not sure how you came to that. What I'm getting at is that by chucking a starter because it's sulphury when your starter is full of 3068 might be a bit nuts... 

Your yeast though. And feel free to read my post really quickly and misinterpret it.


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## manticle (2/9/10)

I can understand how pitching a full smack pack into 1 or 2 L of 1040 wort might be overpitching but how is stepping up from a slant overpitching (which is the case here)?

Easy to misinterpret your post if you don't bother to explain it and you suggested that making a starter (no qualification offered) was massive overpitching.

How is making a starter from a slant overpitching? (slowly please because I'm a bit thick)

Additionally the wyeast website suggests that low pitching rates are more likely to result in volatile sulphur compounds being produced than overpitching (everything from low ester formation/clean to autolysis but no sulphur) which seems to counter your suggestion.


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

manticle said:


> Additionally the wyeast website suggests that low pitching rates are more likely to result in volatile sulphur compounds being produced than overpitching (everything from low ester formation/clean to autolysis but no sulphur) which seems to counter your suggestion.



Well i had a whiff this monring, still eggy but no where near as bad as it was. ive left it on the plate and will assess the situation tonight. that will give it 24 hours, by then it should be built up as high as the cell count will go and enough time for any extra sulfur to build up.



Nick, 

No misinterpretation here. Get off your soapbox buddy. The yeast is fresh, probabaly at 99% viability and have been stepped up as they should be. There should be minimal 'overcrowding' and a starter is the *ideal *environment for yeast to grow 'healthily'. With the temperatures im growing them at, the gravity of the wort and the oxygen they are recieving there should be no reason for it to throw the excessive sulfur im experiencing unless of course its typical of this yeast whcih may be a possibilty from the reviews ive been reading. 

Ive had less sulfur in a starter for lager yeasts than this which is why i posted said thread.

Ive been doing starters from slants for 18 months or so now. Probably the only thing thats lacking in my process is no yeast nutrient but i do add a touch of Ca to the wort.

What i was pointing at was if i simply pulled the yeast off the stirplate after one stepup, i'd proabably be pitching 1/2 or less of a smackpack into 23L of 1.048 gravity wort. 

Using my typical pitching rates and those figures above, that SHOULD be around 9 million cells/ml ballpark fogure.

If im pitching 1/2 a smack pack, thats 2.17~million cells/ml. Thats 4 times an underpitch. There is pitching _low_ and then there is underpitching. What you're suggesting is *underpitching* which in ALL circumstances translates into bad practice which im not looking to do.

if youre after repteatable, high quality results you pitch as recommended. if you're after hard to repeat results, you underpitch.


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## Dazza_devil (3/9/10)

What about overpitching, any complications with that?
I tend to not be anal about how many million cells I have and just pitch a shitload of yeast. Big jobs get 4 litre starters and little jobs get 2litre starters. It's worked so far except for my Weizenbock, which is still drinkable, nearly drunk in fact.
It does however appear that these Wheat yeasts are more succeptable to pitching rates than other yeasts.


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

Boagsy said:


> What about overpitching, any complications with that?
> I tend to not be anal about how many million cells I have and just pitch a shitload of yeast. Big jobs get 4 litre starters and little jobs get 2litre starters. It's worked so far except for my Weizenbock, which is still drinkable, nearly drunk in fact.
> It does however appear that these Wheat yeasts are more succeptable to pitching rates than other yeasts.




overpitching is generally only an issue when repitching unhealthy/dead yeast. autolysis is one thing you dont want in your beer. a surefire way to get that is pitching excessive amounts of slurry


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## Nick JD (3/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> Well i had a whiff this monring, still eggy but no where near as bad as it was. ive left it on the plate and will assess the situation tonight. that will give it 24 hours, by then it should be built up as high as the cell count will go and enough time for any extra sulfur to build up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let me explain my point very slowly. When you put 1/5 of a smack pack into 500ml of wort ... that is an OVERPITCH, _your starter (not your eventual fermenter pitch) _is experiencing overpitching. Then you step it up and again, _in your starter you are experienceing overpitching. _The symptoms of overpitching with 3068 are sulphur - hence your smelly starter.

Again, just so it's clear what I'm trying really, really hard to get across ... putting millions of cells into 500ml of wort IS OVERPITCHING. MAKING starters is by definition AN OVERPITCH - again, not when you put the starter in the fermenter, but when you add 1/5 of a smackpack to 500ml of wort.

:blink: Sometimes you brainy guys are a bit fick.


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## Dazza_devil (3/9/10)

Perhaps overpitching with 3638 is a completely different kettle of fish then.
I pitched a full smack pack into a 1 litre starter, decanted, took some samples, built the remaining slurry up to 2 litres and then pitched it at high krausen after a feeding the starter slurry with some dunkleweissen batch wort.
No sulphur at all, at any stage of the process.
The finished beer had a lovely hint of banana, slight bubblegum and a bit of nice spicey clove in the finish.


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## manticle (3/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Let me explain my point very slowly. When you put 1/5 of a smack pack into 500ml of wort ... that is an OVERPITCH, _your starter (not your eventual fermenter pitch) _is experiencing overpitching. Then you step it up and again, _in your starter you are experienceing overpitching. _The symptoms of overpitching with 3068 are sulphur - hence your smelly starter.
> 
> Again, just so it's clear what I'm trying really, really hard to get across ... putting millions of cells into 500ml of wort IS OVERPITCHING. MAKING starters is by definition AN OVERPITCH - again, not when you put the starter in the fermenter, but when you add 1/5 of a smackpack to 500ml of wort.
> 
> :blink: Sometimes you brainy guys are a bit fick.




Maybe you should read slower Nick.

From the first post:


> *slant* vial and shake, 24-48hours or once activity has ceased, i dump this into 200ml of wort on the stirplate for 24 hours then topup to 400ml. Once this ferments out i crash chill, decant and stepup as required.
> 
> (ive had to modify my stepups because my erlenmyers got smashed and im using a fowels varcola jar.  i used to go 50ml, 200ml, 700ml)
> 
> Im now at the *400ml* stage



Not 1/5th of a smack pack directly into 500mL wort. Have you seen a slant? Pretty small amount of yeast.

From the Wyeast website:



> *Effect of Pitch Rate on Beer Flavor*
> Pitch rates, in addition to strain, temperature, and gravity, make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. The pitch rate will have a direct effect on the amount of cell growth during a fermentation. Cell growth decreases as pitch rates increase. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
> 
> A *low* pitch rate can lead to:
> ...



I cannot for the life of me work out why, if a starter BY DEFINITION (therefore always regardless of step up procedures etc) is a massive overpitch, that this doesn't seem to be more common knowledge. There are recommended step up rates for propagation and I grant most people (myself included) may not always follow this. If throwing a whole smack pack into 1 L of wort then yes - that would be an overpitch. The few cells from a slant into 200mL though?

I suck at counting yeast cells so I'll accept that I'm possibly wrong but it is not making sense currently and your explanation so far has little to back it up besides an assertion that seems at odds with other information at hand.

I don't think anyone thought you were talking about the whole beer by the way.


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## Nick JD (3/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> qu? :blink:
> 
> and a non starter/using 1/5th of a smackpack is a surefire way to stress the yeast and produce unwanted esters.
> 
> i'd prefer the starter.



You're correct Mantickle, I misread this above to mean that he was making a starter from 1/5 of a smackpack. 

Sounds like it's infected then - chuck it out.


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> You're correct Mantickle, I misread this above to mean that he was making a starter from 1/5 of a smackpack.
> Sounds like it's infected then - chuck it out.



Ok so you're back-pedaling on the idea that the starter which is at full smack pack level as of lastnight is infected during my steup process from a slant?

assume this whole smackpack has been added to 500ml of wort to get to my 9million cells/ml. if its still stinky tongiht i'll crash chill and sleep on it, ive submitted a question to wyeast. i'll see how it fairs. atleast then they can tell me its stuffed.


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## unrealeous (3/9/10)

AHB would be such a boring place without our whipping boy Nick.

Now back on topic - I mix my slants with 50mls of wort - so perhaps your 200mls initial step could potentially qualify as an under-pitch? Especially with older slants etc... Just a thought


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## Nick JD (3/9/10)

unrealeous said:


> AHB would be such a boring place without our whipping boy Nick.



Hey, I never knew what irreverent meant before I came here. This place is awesome. 

Irreverently yours,

Nick.


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## Nick JD (3/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> ...ive submitted a question to wyeast.



I'd be interested to hear what they say about the stinkiness.


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

unrealeous said:


> AHB would be such a boring place without our whipping boy Nick.
> 
> Now back on topic - I mix my slants with 50mls of wort - so perhaps your 200mls initial step could potentially qualify as an under-pitch? Especially with older slants etc... Just a thought



nope, i do 50ml.

first step - 50ml INTO slant
second 200ml into flask/jar
3rd 400ml into jar (not 500 due to capacity, my erlenmyers are broken. )


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## stuart13 (3/9/10)

Without weighing in to the whole overpitch/underpitch/beat Nick about the head thing, I have used this yeast many times, and it has always stunk. Beers turn out OK though...


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

stuart13 said:


> Without weighing in to the whole overpitch/underpitch/beat Nick about the head thing, I have used this yeast many times, and it has always stunk. Beers turn out OK though...



stunk of sulfur or stunk of expected/desired esters/phenols?


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## Nick JD (3/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> stunk of sulfur or stunk of expected/desired esters/phenols?



Heh heh heh! 

Hey Fourstar - 3068 smells like sulphur. Worse than a lager, unless you underpitch it. :icon_drunk:


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Hey Fourstar - 3068 smells like sulphur. Worse than a lager, unless you underpitch it.



Hey Nick....

Ive got nothing.

ThirstyBoy, I throw this one to you! :icon_cheers:


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## haysie (3/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> ThirstyBoy, I throw this one to you! :icon_cheers:



I wouldnt if I was you. Did you see the pic ANHC come up with of DW? :lol: 
I love a dunkel and this yeast, sure it stinks in the starter vessel but 99/100 the beer doesnt!


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## Fourstar (3/9/10)

haysie said:


> I wouldnt if I was you. Did you see the pic ANHC come up with of DW? :lol:
> I love a dunkel and this yeast, sure it stinks in the starter vessel but 99/100 the beer doesnt!



so you have had the same results mate?

sounds good to me then! :icon_cheers:


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## haysie (3/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> so you have had the same results mate?



Every time it stinks in the starter for me.
edit, further, I dont do ferulic rests etc, but always pitch very cold then build up whilst the yeast builds, no rocket science just this works for keeping this baby in check. Re, clove, bubblegum,banana, theres heaps of ways to skin a cat, you dont need to be told that though.
Forget about the stink and pitch!


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## manticle (3/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> You're correct Mantickle, I misread this above to mean that he was making a starter from 1/5 of a smackpack.
> 
> Sounds like it's infected then - chuck it out.



I am still very confused as to how a starter is 'by definition' massive overpitching but we can leave that discussion for another day, another thread or even another life. Also not sure why wyeast suggest underpitching leads to Hydrogen sulfide production but you insist it's a result of overpitching.

Fourstar - a little google search on 3068 sulfur suggests you're not the first to experience eggs with this yeast. If the wort is tasting OK, I'd take the punt. That's one thing I do agree with Nick on (or did till he changed his mind).


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## Nick JD (4/9/10)

Here, let me Google that for you. Breaking news! 3068 smells! When my 3068 smelled I googled it and relaxed.

Fark. There's an entire page of google results saying it smells like sulphur. The irony - right next to noobs getting shit for not googleing is a befuddled expert who hasn't googled. 

I love this place.


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## Fourstar (4/9/10)

Here is Wyeasts response. They say it is not normal be pussing excessive sulfer at any time during the propagation process.

maybe im being pedantic with the 'excessive part'. The starter smells 1/2 as stinky after the final growth step and no off flavours either when i tasted it. Infact, after swirling it in a glass there is only minimal sulfur noticable and noice clean clove/wheat characters.

The suck it and see approach is in order i think. The worst i can do is produce two eggy batches of beer. Eggleweizen and Dunkeggelweizen. 

Cheers.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:43 PM
To: Customerservice
Subject: Question From Wyeast Labs website for I have general question.


QUESTION:
Hi,

I have been stepping up a slant of Weihenstephan Weizen 3068 as per my
typical procedure as follows: 

50ml worth into a vial until fully attenuated
Add to 200ml worth with 16 hours on a stir plate
Add another 500ml for 16 hours to assume close to a fresh smack pack
cell count. This is then typically crash chilled, decant the starter
liquid and built up as required.

I have noticed with this yeast that it has begun pushing excessive amounts of
sulfur during this propagation process.

I have crash chilled the starter and the culture appears to be healthy,
creamy chalky white and no off flavours in the starter liquid.

Is it typical of this yeast to push sulfur when stepping up from streak
plates/slants?

Also the starter liquid was 1.035OG wort from a 50:50 wheat/barley malt
grist.

Thank-you for your response in advance.

Regards,
Braden


----------------------
Sent: Sat Sep 4 06:21:25 2010
Received: Sat Sep 4 06:21:30 2010
From: Labservices <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Question From Wyeast Labs website for I have general question.

Braden,

It is not normal for Wyeast 3068 to produce significant amounts of
sulfur at any propagation step.

Sincerely,


Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
(541) 354-1335


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## Fourstar (4/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> The irony - right next to noobs getting shit for not googleing is a befuddled expert who hasn't googled.






Fourstar said:


> *I did a little reading before,* even braukiaser (braukaiser.com) has reported sulfur production from this strain with adequate pitching rates. hmmmm, it might be something typical of this strain.



Nick, grow up mate! Now i suppose you're going to say wyeast are wrong.

There is a BIG difference between reading some schmuck from the NSW/QLD Border in the US of A 'expereincing sulfur' with this strain and *credible *sources experiencing sulfur. Turns out the credible source, (WYEAST, not you) says the exact opposite of what you're preaching. imagine that!


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## stuart13 (4/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> stunk of sulfur or stunk of expected/desired esters/phenols?



Sulphur - real bad rotten eggs... This is not just the starter - primary ferment is worse... Though looking at your reply from Wyeast, I wonder what I am doing that is causing this. Not that I view it as a problem - I long ago accepted that this yeast smells bad...


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## Nick JD (4/9/10)

stuart13 said:


> Sulphur - real bad rotten eggs... This is not just the starter - primary ferment is worse... Though looking at your reply from Wyeast, I wonder what I am doing that is causing this. Not that I view it as a problem - I long ago accepted that this yeast smells bad...



Your wrong, Stu - Foreskinstar says so, because Wyeast told him. :lol: Doesn't matter what your experience tells you. 

And if you keep smelling sulphur I'm afraid you'll be told to grow up. Lookout. 

I LOLed and I only usually LOL at Avatars with lame vampires in them.


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## Nick JD (4/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> Nick, grow up mate! Now i suppose you're going to say wyeast are wrong.
> 
> There is a BIG difference between reading some schmuck from the NSW/QLD Border in the US of A 'expereincing sulfur' with this strain and *credible *sources experiencing sulfur. Turns out the credible source, (WYEAST, not you) says the exact opposite of what you're preaching. imagine that!



What's a "significant" amount of sulphur, Forestar? Is that a US Customary unit? 

I find my nose can smell 3.42 significant units of sulfur, especially when I let rip under the sheets and let it stew a little.


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## manticle (4/9/10)

So far in this thread you've advised:

yeast should be fine
Yeast is infected
Use dry yeast and add ground cloves instead of working out how to push clove esters with mash technique and fermentation schedule with the selected liquid strain
Starters and the propogation that sometimes goes with them are ALWAYS a massive overpitch
Sulphur is derived from overpitching rather than underpitching, despite suggestions from the manufacturer that the opposite is the case

You've also given yourself a high five for 'being irreverent' (ooh subversive) and now you're making fart jokes.

Not sure I would consider your experience of any relevance if I was looking for advice on pretty much anything and yes I would listen to wyeast before listening to you.

I used to think you had something to contribute here, despite disagreeing with many things you say and the way you treat other people's experience and sometimes formal education with so much derision but I'm not sure that's the case anymore.

You're probably an amazing brewer (I'm not) but you are a tit on the internet.


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## Nick JD (4/9/10)

manticle said:


> ...but you are a tit on the internet.



Thank you for that moving and epic essay, Mantiickle. Here's a blue and yellow bird (I ran out of gold stars). It's a Tit. 






BTW - 3068 stinks like sulphur unless you underpitch it. Honestly, I care not a significant amount. How much that is is anyone's guess.


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## Synthetase (4/9/10)

manticle said:


> [snip]...I cannot for the life of me work out why, if a starter BY DEFINITION (therefore always regardless of step up procedures etc) is a massive overpitch...[snip]



I think what Nick is trying to get at is that the (relatively small) starter has sufficient cells in it to start fermentation of the entire batch of wort. Therefore the starter may have over 20 times the recommended cell density (for fermentation) at pitching time. Of course this is irrelevant if the starter is properly aerated and has been built up from a much, much lower cell count; since in such a situation the cells will be following the aerobic respiratory pathway and not fermenting, as well as only being at a high cell density at the end of their growth curve and not for the entire length of time.


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## haysie (4/9/10)

The thread was OK, then turned upside down into another shit one. I reckon Nick and Fourstar both send me a sample of their 3068 beer :chug: , Arthur and I will chew the fat over a sip or 2 :super:


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## manticle (4/9/10)

Synthetase said:


> this is irrelevant if the starter is properly aerated and has been built up from a much, much lower cell count



Exactly my point. To suggest that propogating yeast to build a starter is MASSIVE overpitching (_regardless_ of the actual amount of cells to begin with and we were talking about a slant) is a ridiculous statement when made with no qualification. Overpitching is surely proportional to number of cells versus amount of wort combined with gravity of wort and a slant into 200mL is hardly massive overpitching. Like I said - happy to be corrected by more than just Nick's assertion that it is so.

A slant does not have the optimum amount of cells to start a full batch of wort and a slant is the amount of yeast in question. Nick's either talking out his arse or expressing himself with the articulation of an oak tree - either way I find most of what he says to be irrelevant rather than irreverent.


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## Nick JD (4/9/10)

manticle said:


> Exactly my point. To suggest that propogating yeast to build a starter is MASSIVE overpitching (_regardless_ of the actual amount of cells to begin with and we were talking about a slant) is a ridiculous statement when made with no qualification. Overpitching is surely proportional to number of cells versus amount of wort combined with gravity of wort and a slant into 200mL is hardly massive overpitching. Like I said - happy to be corrected by more than just Nick's assertion that it is so.
> 
> A slant does not have the optimum amount of cells to start a full batch of wort and a slant is the amount of yeast in question. Nick's either talking out his arse or expressing himself with the articulation of an oak tree - either way I find most of what he says to be irrelevant rather than irreverent.



I find everything you say to be well written, concise, highly literate and a tad dull. 

Synthetase understands what I'm saying that the last two or three steps of stepping up a starter involve basically pouring a cup of yeast into 500ml of wort. I dunno about you but that's an overpitch - and again, being an Oak I'm refering to the 200ml --> 500ml (or whatever) step, when there's gazillions of highly active cells eating sugaz at ballistic rates. 

Then again, if Foreskin wants to chuck it because Wyeast says 3068 has no significant sulphur in a starter then I highly recommend he chucks it. Not because I would have no probelms using it (because I've stepped up 3068 from a bottle and got stink, but then got supurb beer) but because I don't want anyone to worry about their fermenter. I'm a sensitive guy like that.


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## Nick JD (4/9/10)

haysie said:


> The thread was OK, then turned upside down into another shit one. I reckon Nick and Fourstar both send me a sample of their 3068 beer :chug: , Arthur and I will chew the fat over a sip or 2 :super:



I'm drinking one right now. It's freakin delicious. 15% Melanoidin, 40% wheat and 15IBUs of Citra at 60 minutes. DAMN! 

...stunk like sulphur for the first day of fermentation at 21C too. Massively underpitched it.


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## Weizguy (7/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> I'm drinking one right now. It's freakin delicious. 15% Melanoidin, 40% wheat and 15IBUs of Citra at 60 minutes. DAMN!
> 
> ...stunk like sulphur for the first day of fermentation at 21C too. Massively underpitched it.


You say it's delicious, but does it taste like a weizen?
Does not sound like any German-style wheat beer that I have heard of. Less then 50% wheat and all that melanoidin, and the Citra (what the?)...

Anyway, did Fourstar pitch the yeast or not?

I have been holding my breath for days on this result.

As for me, I have a weizen brewed using W3638, pitched with a litre of starter (wort was originally about 1.035), and it smells great. About to go into the keg tonight


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## Nick JD (7/9/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> You say it's delicious, but does it taste like a weizen?



Did I say it was a weizen? Where's the rule that says we all have to make beer according to style?

Beer snobs bore me. If I use 3068 must I also use a noble hop? Bullshit to that.


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## Fourstar (7/9/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Anyway, did Fourstar pitch the yeast or not?
> I have been holding my breath for days on this result.
> As for me, I have a weizen brewed using W3638, pitched with a litre of starter (wort was originally about 1.035), and it smells great. About to go into the keg tonight



OK,

so i pitched the yeast on saturday arvo @ 16deg (ambients are 17-18deg) @ 1.048OG.
Aroma sunday evening with a mild krausen was nothing but clove and mild yeasty esters.
Aroma monday arvo after work - ultra mega sulfur farts @ 1.030SG 

So it should be at high krausen at this point. This is the first time it hasnt crawled out of the fermenter for me either. The low ferment temp must be keeping it in check/ the animal caged so to speak.

Knowing my luck i'll come home tonight to a gawd awful mess of 3068.  

Im also agitating the fermenter daily to ensure some extra CO2 thats produced during fermentation is roused out of suspension to drive off as much of the hydrogen sulfide aromas as possible. In addition to ensureing correct attenuation.


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## beerbrewer76543 (7/9/10)

*awaits smart arsed comment from Nick JD*


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## unrealeous (7/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> Aroma monday arvo after work - ultra mega sulfur farts...


Next time SWMBO complains about you dropping your guts you can blame it on the beer.


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## Fourstar (7/9/10)

unrealeous said:


> Next time SWMBO complains about you dropping your guts you can blame it on the beer.



nope i'll just blame it on her cooking!


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## Weizguy (7/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> Did I say it was a weizen? Where's the rule that says we all have to make beer according to style?
> 
> Beer snobs bore me. If I use 3068 must I also use a noble hop? Bullshit to that.


You did not say it was a weizen, nor did I...

I asked if it tasted like a weizen.

I was concerned that you would be entirely unable to discern any of the yeast character if the hop character was over the top.
I have made 15 IBU beers with a 60 minute boil and the noble hop was very detectable. I can surmise that Citra would be excessive.

I am a beer geek, not a beer snob, and would love to taste your Citra wheat ale.


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## Nick JD (7/9/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I am a beer geek, not a beer snob, and would love to taste your Citra wheat ale.




Probably more a mellow hopfenweizen or hopfenweisse (if there's a difference) if one were trying to pigeon-hole it, I guess. 

The fruit salad of the citra and the esters and phenols of the fart-free underpitched 3068 (15 IBUs reached with a 10 minute addition) make it like drinking a banana split fruit sundae.

If I'm gonna drink Germany's "Beer for Girls", I like it to be really limp wristed. You could wear it as a fascinator hat to the Melbourne Cup.


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## hockadays (12/9/10)

Thought I'd add my two bob, Grew up a 2L starter from a smack pack yesterday with this yeast and the starter had no sulphur at all. Pitched the lot into 44L of fresh hefeweizen last night at 12degc and it's 16degc this morning with a light surface activity. Will post again if it goes smelly.


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## Fourstar (12/9/10)

hockadays said:


> Thought I'd add my two bob, Grew up a 2L starter from a smack pack yesterday with this yeast and the starter had no sulphur at all. Pitched the lot into 44L of fresh hefeweizen last night at 12degc and it's 16degc this morning with a light surface activity. Will post again if it goes smelly.




the repitch from the top crop i took for the dunkelweizen has thrown NO sulfur.

It might have soemthing todo with yeast health at this point. Definitely not an infection.

I have also noticed the hefe has mild clove compared to the dunkel. I am crash chilling the weizen today and the dunkel is 2/4 through fermentation. i guess the best esters you get from this yeast are on repitches as well. (mash regieme was identical.)

I guess the scoresheets will tell the tale come VICBREW. the hefe still has a mild sulfur aroma in the headspace, taking a sample its almost negligible. When i keg it i'll run some CO2 through the beer out post and into solution and then vent to try and drive some more of the sulfur off.

Cheers!


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## manticle (12/9/10)

Why are you crash chilling the weizen if you don't mind me asking?


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## hockadays (12/9/10)

It certainly sounds like yeast health could be the cause


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## Fourstar (12/9/10)

manticle said:


> Why are you crash chilling the weizen if you don't mind me asking?




im not really interested in drinking hop matter and trub. Especially after rousing the fermenter 48 horus ago to ensure it attenuated properly.

its only 24 hours. just enough to floc out any excessive yeast and then a gentle transfer from primary to the keg tomorrow night. IMO 24 horus is no where near enough time to end up with crystal clear beer. Even if you are using a floccer like 1968 or 1469. 3068 has poor flocculation abilities so i think im in a safe zone for some haze.

actually, i've been quite interested in trying to line up two weizens, as soon as one is ready to keg, i filter it and then with the one thats currently fermenting i top crop some fresh healthy yeast from the krausen into the kegged beer. diamond bright, without the break material and a nice clean healthy chunk of yeast to throw into suspension. :icon_cheers: 

atleast thats my understanding of how a few German breweries do it. they reseed with lager yeasts for shelf stability.


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## manticle (12/9/10)

Fair enough. I've always found hop matter drops out anyway but you know what you're doing. I was just interested in the reasoning.

Also interested to hear how you go with the krausening. My understanding is that it's a traditional german way of carbonating which I'm interested in trying out one day. I have no idea how you control the level of carb.


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## Fourstar (12/9/10)

manticle said:


> Fair enough. I've always found hop matter drops out anyway but you know what you're doing. I was just interested in the reasoning.
> Also interested to hear how you go with the krausening. My understanding is that it's a traditional german way of carbonating which I'm interested in trying out one day. I have no idea how you control the level of carb.



well i dont want hop matter blocking my dib tube in the keg either. the neck of a bottle is a tad bigger! 

aslo, top cropping/krausing = two different beasts. top cropping is taking JUST yeast for propegation or seeding into a batch.

Krausening is typically when you leave a % of fermenting beer to get your desired pitch rate and you use that to either bottle condition or start fermenting a new batch.

what i would be doing is top cropping. although i have been tempted to krausen beers, the only problem is the loss in primary. Actually thinking about it i do 'krausen' most of my repitches as i typically take a cup or so of fermenting beer (as long as its a lower colour and not hopped off its head) and drop that in as well just to make sure my pitch rate is on spot if the krausen looks a little low.


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## manticle (12/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> well i dont want hop matter blocking my dib tube in the keg either. the neck of a bottle is a tad bigger!
> 
> aslo, top cropping/krausing = two different beasts. top cropping is taking JUST yeast for propegation or seeding into a batch.
> 
> ...



I know they're two different things (I'm a regular top cropper) - just misread your post and missed the 'keg' bit.

Which makes me somewhat of a dill.


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## hockadays (13/9/10)

At 36hrs still no sulphur but a little bit of a mess. This is at 18degc as well.


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## Dazza_devil (13/9/10)

hockadays said:


> At 36hrs still no sulphur but a little bit of a mess. This is at 18degc as well.




That's obviously a very comfortable yeast, doesn't look stressed at all.


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## beerbrewer76543 (13/9/10)

+1 for crash chilling (when bottling)

my first weizen had way too much yeast in each bottle to fully rouse before pouring into a glass. A couple of days crash chilling helps to lower the amount of yeast going into the bottle, remembering some extra will be made during carbonation. Now I can get all aroused without getting a yeast overload


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## Fourstar (13/9/10)

Said beer after crash chill and force carb to 3 vol carbonation.
Not the best picture (webcam as i can't be arsed) but still good enough haze.. obvious, as you can't see my face.

No noticable Sulfur after the crash chill and running CO2 through the keg (via beer out post) for about 10 seconds. mild clove aroma and big wheaty breadcrusts quite clean and enjoyable. Nom Nom Nom Nom!


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## warra48 (3/12/10)

This is what my current batch of Dunkelweizenbock is doing with some slurry of WY3638 harvested from a batch of Hefeweizen.
It's gone totally feral, even though I have strict temperature control on my fermentation fridge.


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## waggastew (31/10/11)

Day 2 of a Weizenbock ferment using a repitch of 200mL of slurry from a weizen brewed with 3068. Feeling a bit left out because it is not even attempting to climb out of the fermenter (17degC), just a nice thick krausen. Was a bit concerned re: the sulfur aroma but this thread has made me feel much better!

On another note these wheat beers are my first foray into extract and bits and I really like the control over hopping.


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## mercle (31/10/11)

I personally think there's something about 3068.

Last year I used a year old vial I had taken from a smack pack, built it up over a few days (no stir plate), chucked it into a Dunkelweizen and it blew out the airlock in only 24 hours, much like some of the previous pics in this thread. But turned into a great beer, and also took 1st place in the YVB Dunkelweizen comp. There was no issue with the smell at any point though.

I have just done a Roggenbier with a new smack pack, and throughout fermentation it had a bit of an off smell. Letting it sit for a minute or so and the smell was gone.

The beer is in the Keg now (and a few bottles!). Beer from the keg has no smell and tastes fine.

From my experiences with this yeast, it's not like any other I have used. I've only used 4 other Wyeast strains, and pretty much all the Safale strains, but this is far different to them all.


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