# Pbw Replacement For Stainless Cleaning



## Galamus (9/11/10)

I find that one of my most expensive outlays now that I have jumped on bulk buys and started growing hops is PBW cleaner. Starsan seems to last forever but i go through a fair amount of PBW and at ~$25 a kg its expensive.

I work in a laboratory so I have access to pretty much any chemical I want, I'm curious as to what people who dont use PBW use as a CIP cleaner.. I am thinking of using a caustic clean (5-15%) followed by an acid rinse(phosphoric or nitric) either occasionally or each time to remove calcium stone. I have found some interesting links -which I have listed below- though it appears caustic cleaning is uncommon in the homebrewing world. 

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b...4/millspaw.html
http://www.ssina.com/download_a_file/cleaning.pdf

I would be interested in hearing about any ones experience with different cleaning methods.

Also I will obviously be cleaning at room temp (as hot caustic and stainless is not ideal) and I was thinking 20/30 min soaking in a caustic solution.

Cheers Guys


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## MHB (9/11/10)

Hot Caustic (NaOH) at 1-2% really is the industry standard brewhouse cleaner.

I dont know where you get the idea that it isnt good, its very effective, mind you it will dissolve people to. Use with great care!

MHB


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## Galamus (9/11/10)

Thanks MHB I'm used to 50% caustic solutions and at that strength you are not meant to increase the temp above 80 or you risk eating your tank (304SS).

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=34

What temperature would you suggest to clean at?

*Edit for accuracy and link


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## MHB (9/11/10)

1-2% caustic at or near boiling, that's a lot different to 50%
Usually if you don't have a separate CIP system, enough water and caustic to make a pumped circuit is brought to a boil in the kettle, this is then pumped into the mash tun via a spray ball or similar, returning to the kettle by way of the normal tun to kettle path. Recirculate for 15-30 minutes, then move the spray ball over to the kettle.
You need a decent pump and a spray system that gets all the surfaces wet, be careful to test your system with water before you add caustic, even a fine mist of boiling caustic can be very dangerous.
Personally I use hot caustic and a long handled dunny brush (no - the other one, not the one that lives in the loo)
MHB


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## brettprevans (9/11/10)

At the risk of killing kittens, why not start a bulk buy on pbw? Last bb I got into for pbw i picked up like 5kg for $20 or less (from memory). Much cheaper and less dangerous. But if u want an alternative all I've heard about is standard brewery caustic as being the alternative.


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## Galamus (10/11/10)

Thanks again MHB I'll give it a try, not quite sure how to recirc back into the kettle without spraying caustic everywhere with a sprayball, but I'm sure I will sort something out, maybe a 180 ball rather than a 360. Do you ever use a nitric wash to regenerate the passivation layer on the stainless?

Citymorgue, thats not a bad idea at all, I would have no idea where to start (ie. who to bulk buy from) but I'm sure people would be interested..


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## Batz (10/11/10)

Recipe to make your own PBW on this forum

http://www.tucsonbrewclub.com/index.php?op...d=2&id=1139

Batz


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## razz (10/11/10)

You can make your PBW go a bit further Galamus. I have no probs with using it at half strength, it still works okay. Not sure about CIP as I don't do it.


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## Batz (10/11/10)

I just received a reply to my email to a chemical supplier in Gympie.



sodium [email protected] $3.30per kg 
sodium metasilicate @ $2.50per Kg 

So you could make your own PBW for under $3.00 a kilo. Now that's a saving of around $21.50 per kilo, I'm looking into this further  

Batz


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## MarkBastard (10/11/10)

Batz do you reckon the recipe below is the right one?



> PBW should contain up to:
> 40% sodium percarbonate
> 30% sodium metasilicate
> 8& chelate
> ...



If so does your chemical supplier stock chelate and sequenstrant? Also I guess getting bicarb through them would be a good idea too?


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## Batz (10/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Batz do you reckon the recipe below is the right one?
> 
> 
> 
> If so does your chemical supplier stock chelate and sequenstrant? Also I guess getting bicarb through them would be a good idea too?




Don't know about chelate or sequenstrant, bicarb is cheap as in the swimming pool section of Bunnies etc.



> A sequestrant is a food additive whose role is to improve the quality and stability of the food products. Sequestrants form chelate complexes with polyvalent metal ions, especially copper, iron and nickel, which serve as catalysts in the oxidation of the fats in the food. Sequestrants are a kind of preservative.
> 
> The name comes from Latin and means "to withdraw from use"[citation needed].
> 
> ...



Batz


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## randyrob (10/11/10)

Hey Guys,

The Westcoast Brewers recently did a chemicals with the intent of making something simular to PBW. In the past we have done just straight Sodium Percarbonate Bulk Buys.

*WCB Wash*

60% Sodium Percarbonate
30% Sodium Metasilicate
10% Disodium Phosphate


here was our Pricing (including GST)

Percarbonate $2.50 per KG
Metasilicate $3.50 per KG
Disodium Phos (Dihydrate) $7.50 per KG

To break it down for you

PBW is $27.50 per KG on Craftbrewer
WCB WASH is $3.38 per KG (calculated on 25kg Percarb, 12.5kg Metasilicate, 5kg Disodium Phos)

so that's 88% cheaper than PBW!

Cheers Rob.


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## Ross (10/11/10)

I'm sure there were over 10 ingredients in PBW according to John's talk at the ANHC.

No doubt you can make something from local ingredients that will be pretty effective, but it won't be PBW.

cheers Ross

Edit: PBW is available in bulk for approx $10 a kilo.


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## MarkBastard (10/11/10)

How was the effectiveness Rob?

I have found PBW to be significantly better than 'home brand napisan' at 'hard jobs'. For example I had some second hand andale taps that gave my beer a metallic taste and napisan was not helping. PBW on the other hand did its magic quite quickly.

If this fake PBW mixture is really as good as PBW then that is great. If it's closer to napisan then the convenience of napisan means I'd probably rather just buy it from the supermarket to be honest.


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## brettprevans (10/11/10)

bulk from Ross @ $10 a kilo would be cheaper in ingrediants and time and effectivess compared to a home made job IMO. I know what I would be doing.

oh and I found the threadI was refering to above - link 
it wasnt pbw though, it was pure Sodium Percarbonate @ $4kg.


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## Galamus (10/11/10)

Thanks guys, some great ideas. A few questions;
-Ross how much PBW to get the price down to $10?
-How do people generally use their PBW, I have been using it as CIP however I wonder if its more useful the same way MHB mentioned the use of caustic.
-Does anyone know a convenient/cheap place to get a SS spray ball?

Cheers


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## Ross (10/11/10)

Comes in a 50lb (22.7kg) pail for $258.

We've just been supplying to the micros, so not on the site, but happy to supply anyone.

Cheers Ross

Edit: we have removed caustic from our brewery (nasty stuff) & have replaced with PBW - Our brewery staff are very happy with the change.


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## gregs (10/11/10)

Ross said:


> I'm sure there were over 10 ingredients in PBW according to John's talk at the ANHC.
> 
> No doubt you can make something from local ingredients that will be pretty effective, but it won't be PBW.
> 
> ...



Ross do you have the $10.00 per kilo price on your site and how much do I have to buy to get that price? Sounds like a good deal.


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## yardy (10/11/10)

gregs said:


> Ross do you have the $10.00 per kilo price on your site and how much do I have to buy to get that price? Sounds like a good deal.



let us know if you need more bodies to get onboard with this greg :icon_cheers: 

Dave


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## gregs (10/11/10)

yardy said:


> let us know if you need more bodies to get onboard with this greg :icon_cheers:
> 
> Dave




I'll do the ask around and get back to you Dave.


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## MarkBastard (10/11/10)

15 people get 1.5kg each (that way you can use an old napisan container, I think they're 1.5KG)

200g leftover for spillage or whatever.

$17.20 each

Sounds good to me ;-)


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## Florian (10/11/10)

Count me in for at least 3kg, possibly more.

Florian


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## mickpc (10/11/10)

I wouldnt mind 3kg as well.


cheers and beers, Mick


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## argon (10/11/10)

I've seen these big pales sitting on the floor at CBs. I reckon a bulk it and split is an excellent idea. 3kg at a time would be good. I'm in.


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## potof4x (10/11/10)

i would be interested in 3kg too.


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## MarkBastard (10/11/10)

Yeah I'd go 3kg come to think of it. At that price I'd use PBW instead of Napisan on everything except fermenters.


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## manticle (10/11/10)

I'd jump in if someone wants to organise a BB.


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## MeLoveBeer (10/11/10)

If shipping to Melbourne doesn't make it unviable (or G&G can offer a similar price), I reckon we could gather the numbers pretty easily Manticle. I'd take 5kg without hesitation (seem to be chewing through it lately).


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## DUANNE (10/11/10)

id be in for at least 3kg if it gets off the ground.


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## Batz (10/11/10)

I bet most of the other ingredients are for storage and keeping the power from clumping etc. Still the bulk price is much more attractive than the packaged stuff.

Competition is a wonderful thing hey? I'm going to have a crack at making it for under $3.00 a kilo all the same, I still have some PBW so I can do a side by side comparison.




Batz


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## MarkBastard (11/11/10)

Batz said:


> I bet most of the other ingredients are for storage and keeping the power from clumping etc. Still the bulk price is much more attractive than the packaged stuff.
> 
> Competition is a wonderful thing hey? I'm going to have a crack at making it for under $3.00 a kilo all the same, I still have some PBW so I can do a side by side comparison.
> 
> ...



I'm sure the knock off will at the least be cheaper and much better than home brand napisan. I'd be up for some of this knock off as well for cleaning fermenters and stuff like that.


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## matho (11/11/10)

about the spray ball you can go here


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## TidalPete (11/11/10)

matho said:


> about the spray ball you can go here



And you're Pist'n'Broke????  

TP


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## TidalPete (11/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> 15 people get 1.5kg each (that way you can use an old napisan container, I think they're 1.5KG)
> 
> 200g leftover for spillage or whatever.
> 
> ...



That would seem to be false economy *IF *CraftBrewer will sell a kilo for $10.
For another $2.80 you could get 2kg & 3Kg for $30 instead of $34.40 if a bulk buy was to happen.
Have contacted CraftBrewer to find out what's what.

TP


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## MarkBastard (11/11/10)

TidalPete said:


> That would seem to be false economy *IF *CraftBrewer will sell a kilo for $10.
> For another $2.80 you could get 2kg & 3Kg for $30 instead of $34.40 if a bulk buy was to happen.
> Have contacted CraftBrewer to find out what's what.
> 
> TP



Ross posted his real bulk prices above. $10/kg was just an estimate. The figures I have said above are the real ones so there's no false economy about it.

Just for interests sake on the craft brewer website buying in the standard packaging the pricing is...

0.45kg - $14.90
1.8kg - $49


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## stux (11/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Ross posted his real bulk prices above. $10/kg was just an estimate. The figures I have said above are the real ones so there's no false economy about it.
> 
> Just for interests sake on the craft brewer website buying in the standard packaging the pricing is...
> 
> ...



I'm interested in a bulk buy too 

Don't have a nappy san container :-\

About to finish some pure Sod Metasilicate, so considering trying PBW.

At nearly 3x the value of the .45KG, I think I'd want in on a 1.5KG 

Anyone got a spare nappy san container they don't want


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## TidalPete (11/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Ross posted his real bulk prices above. $10/kg was just an estimate. The figures I have said above are the real ones so there's no false economy about it.
> 
> Just for interests sake on the craft brewer website buying in the standard packaging the pricing is...
> 
> ...



Not saying the BB would be false economy (note the "IF" in larger text) & quite happy to put my name down for 3Kg of PBW if CraftBrewer's reply to my enquiry does not turn out as hoped & the BB goes ahead.

TP


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## MarkBastard (11/11/10)

Stux said:


> I'm interested in a bulk buy too
> 
> Don't have a nappy san container :-\
> 
> ...



Well no ones really put their hand up for the bulk buy and having a napisan container wouldn't be a pre-requisite anyway! Just thought it'd be a decent quantity because most people will probably have an empty napisan container I reckon...


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## Batz (11/11/10)

Well really if you can score 3kgs for $30.00_....no hidden extras _it's possibly not worth making your own.

Yep I'll go 3 kg as well :icon_chickcheers: 

Batz


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## winkle (11/11/10)

Ditto here, stocks are getting low.


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## cliffo (11/11/10)

I'd be interested in 3kgs if a BB goes ahead provided it can be posted to Newcastle


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## matho (11/11/10)

TidalPete said:


> And you're Pist'n'Broke????
> 
> TP



hey TP i dont have one, he just asked where to get a spray ball from.

:icon_cheers: 

cheers matho
p.s. ill be pissed tonight :icon_drunk:


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## Thirsty Boy (11/11/10)

Without getting into bulk buys or replaements... The easiest way to save money on your PBS is to re-use it. Like all alkaline cleaners, PBS isn't fi iced once it's done.

For instance, here at work, the caustic is recycled again and again from the CIP system. Rinse first to get rid of the chunky loose soil, CIP, then final rinse. That CIP part doesn't go to drain, it goes back to a tank and gets re-used.

All that happens is that soil is allowed to settle out in a tank, and when the strength weakens, it is topped up with extra NaOH. Replaced completely every now and again.

Same thing with PBW. I keep a 20L container pre-made up at CIP strength... Use it, then pour it through a straining funnel back into the cube. Anyothing that makes it through the strainer settles out below the tap in the cube. If I'm using any more than a litter or so, I chuck in a tablespoon of extra pbw powder in to top up the strength.

Since I started recycling... My pbw usage is down to about 10-20% of what it was when I was using it as a one shot.

TB


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## leiothrix (11/11/10)

i'd also like 3kg too.


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## argon (11/11/10)

Recycling PBW... Thanks TB will be implementing this from now on.
Cheers


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## Batz (11/11/10)

TidalPete said:


> Not saying the BB would be false economy (note the "IF" in larger text) & quite happy to put my name down for 3Kg of PBW if CraftBrewer's reply to my enquiry does not turn out as hoped & the BB goes ahead.
> 
> TP




Lets do it Pete, I'll give you a hand to split it up.

Batz


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## TidalPete (11/11/10)

Batz said:


> Lets do it Pete, I'll give you a hand to split it up.
> 
> Batz



Gotta be someone else I'm afraid Batz. Life is too short at my age to fart around organising bulk buys.  

TP


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## opposition (11/11/10)

I'd be in also if it can get to Melbourne, or the Vic boys wanted to run one.....

Cheers.

Dean


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## Batz (11/11/10)

Ok we can get 22.7 kg @ $10.00 per kilo from Ross ( nice one Ross :beerbang: ) much appreciated !

I'll do a quick bulk buy here, only five of us, 4.50kg lots $46.00, plus the price of a cheap bucket to put it in.

I'm way off the mark here with bulk buys so I'll start a thread in the 'bulk buys' if your interested.

Batz


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## Wolfy (6/6/12)

I know this is an old thread, but came across it while searching for PBW/caustic and found this idea.


Thirsty Boy said:


> Without getting into bulk buys or replaements... The easiest way to save money on your PBS is to re-use it. Like all alkaline cleaners, PBS isn't fi iced once it's done.
> ...
> Same thing with PBW. I keep a 20L container pre-made up at CIP strength... Use it, then pour it through a straining funnel back into the cube. Anyothing that makes it through the strainer settles out below the tap in the cube. If I'm using any more than a litter or so, I chuck in a tablespoon of extra pbw powder in to top up the strength.


My understanding is that PBW's main ingredient (Sodium Percarbonate) reacts when dissolved in water, essentially decomposing into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate, the hydrogen peroxide degrades into water and oxygen, but the reaction, decomposition and activity is also what gives sodium percabonate much of its cleaning-power (and sanitation properties) and is the 'active' part promoted in many 'oxy' cleaning products. 

Saving left over solution, is a good idea, however by that time it would essentially be washing soda (sodium carbonate), which is a useful cleaning and descaling product, but it's not the same as the 'active cleaning' components of PBW. Washing soda is very cheaply available at the supermarket and could (home-brewers in the UK use it) easily be used as a cheap brewery wash and would be essentially the same as saving PBW.


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## donburke (6/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> I know this is an old thread, but came across it while searching for PBW/caustic and found this idea.
> 
> My understanding is that PBW's main ingredient (Sodium Percarbonate) reacts when dissolved in water, essentially decomposing into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate, the hydrogen peroxide degrades into water and oxygen, but the reaction, decomposition and activity is also what gives sodium percabonate much of its cleaning-power (and sanitation properties) and is the 'active' part promoted in many 'oxy' cleaning products.
> 
> Saving left over solution, is a good idea, however by that time it would essentially be washing soda (sodium carbonate), which is a useful cleaning and descaling product, but it's not the same as the 'active cleaning' components of PBW. Washing soda is very cheaply available at the supermarket and could (home-brewers in the UK use it) easily be used as a cheap brewery wash and would be essentially the same as saving PBW.



yes wolfy, this was also explained during a brewstrong interview with chris from 5 star, he mentioned that the oxygen from the percarbonate is used up in approx 24 hours


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## DKS (6/6/12)

I have been using Sod perc regularly and PBW once in a while.
Question ?
Do you guys know why does the PBW seems to remove beer stone where the sod perc doesnt?
Daz


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## Wolfy (6/6/12)

DKS said:


> Question ?
> Do you guys know why does the PBW seems to remove beer stone where the sod perc doesnt?


Probably due to the other (10 or so according to quote earlier in this thread) chemicals that make PBW - I might have to try and find out which one.


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## zabond (7/6/12)

A mate of mine in the wine industry gave me a 5kg pack of "DESTAINEX"[Peroxy-alkaline detergent powder] which is used for stainless cleaning in the wine industry,boy does this clean stainless-[quote:clean & remove wine protien & colour films,mildew,black mould & most organic soils from stainless,concrete & most hard surfaces]ran it through my system and it removed beer stone,stains in lines,made kegs look new even soaked the oven racks in it and the burnt on crud vertually fell off
pack states contains:sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate,carbonate,bicarbonate,propritary solvent suficant,rinse aid.
made by Wine Industry Support Enterprises P/L-airdchemistry.com
dont know if its available to the public but if you can get some you wont regret it


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## donburke (7/6/12)

do you think it would remove the staining from silicon hoses ?

pbw doesnt


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## brad81 (7/6/12)

> A mate of mine in the wine industry gave me a 5kg pack of "DESTAINEX" Peroxy-alkaline detergent powder which is used for stainless cleaning in the wine industry,boy does this clean stainless - quote:clean & remove wine protien & colour films,mildew,black mould & most organic soils from stainless,concrete & most hard surfaces ran it through my system and it removed beer stone,stains in lines,made kegs look new even soaked the oven racks in it and the burnt on crud vertually fell off
> pack states contains:sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate,carbonate,bicarbonate,propritary solvent suficant,rinse aid.
> made by Wine Industry Support Enterprises P/L-airdchemistry.com
> dont know if its available to the public but if you can get some you wont regret it



It aint cheap!

http://www.enoltech.com.au/products/aird-c.../destainex.html

You just got given $25ish worth of cleaning product. I wonder if they sell outside of the distributor network.

Don, I just read the technical sheet and all is said was flexible hoses, I can only assume it would remove your stains....


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## razz (7/6/12)

At $5 a kilo it's a lot cheaper than PBW, any body know the dilution rate?


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## brad81 (7/6/12)

Looking at the site <1.25% hot solution for 5-15mins and then rinse off with cold water.

Edit: here's the sheet
http://www.enoltech.com.au/images/stories/...20Protocols.pdf


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## razz (7/6/12)

Thanks Brad.


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## brad81 (7/6/12)

razz said:


> Thanks Brad.



Reckon it could be worthy of a bulk buy? $75 from the wholesaler, not a distributor. Might be pushing it. Probably looking at least $150 for 15kgs. Plus shipping, ergh I dunno....


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## razz (7/6/12)

I've still got a fair bit of PBW or else a BB would be tempting. Looking at the website I'd say anybody can order. $71 + postage.


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