# Fat Yak(tastes Like Crap)



## banora brewer (11/2/11)

Hi, just cracked open a fat yak and it tastes like crap. Anyone else have this problem?


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## Pennywise (11/2/11)

Can you be a bit more descriptive of what crap is? I had some fresh the other day and was best it's ever been


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## dcx3 (11/2/11)

Having one now ....mines good!


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## banora brewer (11/2/11)

Pennywise said:


> Can you be a bit more descriptive of what crap is? I had some fresh the other day and was best it's ever been


Just tastes real bitter, can't taste any hops at all, and there is no aroma


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## The Pope (11/2/11)

Just bought a 6 pack and finding mine is the same...Very bitter


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## Mercs Own (11/2/11)

I have just got back from Echuca where I have been working - not a lot of great beer choices up there in the Pubs so I did have a few Fat Yaks draught and they were fine - easy drinking , balanced, good malt body nice hop aroma and flavour etc

problem must be in the bottles then.


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## pmash (11/2/11)

Yes mate, I , and friends, have had the same problem. The first time I have ever been angry enough to voice a complaint to a manufacturer.

This is a copy of my email, and CUBs :angry: response;

enquiry Well done guys, you've really destroyed your best beer and all my hard work convincing everybody I know and meet to try it! Fat Yak is now fucked! Sorry, won't be buying any more.You worked hard for market acceptance and then dumb it down, why?


Thank you for contacting us at CUB and for bringing your concerns to our attention.
We have not changed the recipe of production method of Fat Yak.

We are proud of the quality of our products and we take great efforts to ensure our products meet our customer's expectations.

Our production lines are world class and include many processes to ensure the integrity of our products. Standard procedures on our production lines include inverted rinsing of bottles just prior to filling, capping or sealing immediately post filling and numerous checks to ensure weight and content standards are met.

Should you continue to have quality concerns, please retain a sample of the affected product and contact us on the toll free number listed below so we can collect and analyse the product.

Please contact us again should you have any further queries we can assist you with.

Kind Regards,
CUB - Consumer Relations
1800 007 282 | www.cub.com.au
"Enjoy Responsibly"

Yep, it tastes like crap.


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## Yeastie Beastie (11/2/11)

My local has it both on tap and in stubbies. 
Personally I believe it tastes better on tap, probably due to being in the glass and the whole aroma thing.
Either or it is a bloody beautiful drop IMO.


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## banora brewer (11/2/11)

I think I need to go have a homebrew


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## Lecterfan (11/2/11)

I've had it within the last 6 months and thought it was completely drinkable if unremarkable. I tried the matilda bay lager...my gf and I bought 14 stubbs of various lagers from Dans to do a taste test (we are narrowing down what beers she likes so I have something to aim for), and I hate to say but the matilda bay bo pils came last. Funny given that in a blind test out of all of them my gf (and I - but it wasn't blind for me) ranked pilsner urquell number one. Compared to the various other bits and pieces (Gage Roads scored pretty well - middle of the field, even higher for their mid strength pils), it was rubbish. It made the fat yak seem like an extravagantly well crafted beverage.

edit: tried to attach a humorous gif file but it did't work.


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## Charst (11/2/11)

+1 for it tasting better on tap. But i dont think it's because it's in glass as i pour everything into a glass before i drink it. 
I dont buy it at my local bottlo anymore due to every bottle i get lacking the hop character you get when it's on tap and fresh.

I had it on tap at 1 place and it must have been fresh because it was delicous, hoppy, you could taste fresh cascade.
Had it at another more TAB/old man pub and it was sh*t. I probably got a pot of beer thats been sitting in the lines for a month.

otherwise could it be a sterilising thing in the bottling line? heating the hops and bittering them?
I doubt CUB would be set up for any kind of Hop aroma in their beers.


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## Bribie G (11/2/11)

Had one last night at the Platform Bar, Brisbane as an alternative to the usual orange, chill hazed and frozen offerings

 

Very nice. 

defrosted it first for 10 minutes.


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## RdeVjun (11/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Had one last night at the Platform Bar, Brisbane as an alternative to the usual orange, chill hazed and frozen offerings


Hmmm, SHI not good enough hey?  I'll nb. the pre- ordering requirement though, ta!  

Bottled stuff has nothing unusual about it here, at least as of a fortnight ago, but our stock could be a bit dusty by the time we get our mitts on it.

Edit: Typo...


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## Siborg (11/2/11)

pmash said:


> We have not changed the recipe of production method of Fat Yak.



Something has changed... it isn't as good as I remember it from 12 months ago.


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## Bribie G (11/2/11)

RdeVjun said:


> *Hmmm, SHI not good enough hey? *  I'll nb. the pre- ordering requirement though, ta!
> 
> Bottled stuff has nothing unusual about it here, at least as of a fortnight ago, but our stock could be a bit dusty by the time we get our mitts on it.
> 
> Edit: Typo...



I was too pissed to climb the hill, having been on the turps with TidalPete, Batz, Screwtop and roboscot since 10 AM :chug: 
IH next Wednesday if you are still on.

General annoucement: International Hotel Spring Hill Wednesday 4 till late session anyone interested to sup Rudy's brews (five bucks a pint)


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## Carboy (11/2/11)

When Fat Yak was first released I loved it. Over the past twelve months I have found that both bottled and tap beer its not that good as what it used to be.

I've tasted Fat Yak in NSW, ACT, SA, VIC and WA, now I'm wondering is its a storage problem i.e. too hot, too long, too cold.

Personaly I stopped buying Fat Yak about November last year.... No more for me.

My 2 worth

Cheers
C :icon_cheers:


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## felten (11/2/11)

Bottles have a finite shelf life, which is exacerbated by poor storage conditions. Don't judge a beer based on a badly stored and handled bottle.


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## super_simian (11/2/11)

I find it pretty one-dimensional. Like a caricature of a craft APA. Carlton Draught + hop cordial. But that's just me.


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## Cocko (11/2/11)

Mercs Own said:


> I have just got back from Echuca where I have been working - not a lot of great beer choices up there in the Pubs so I did have a few Fat Yaks draught and they were fine - easy drinking , balanced, good malt body nice hop aroma and flavour etc
> 
> problem must be in the bottles then.



Agreed.

Had it once of a many times on tap, it must have been really fresh, and it was a very well balanced, fresh tasting hoppy great beer - IMO [That time] an awesome beer.. Luck of the draw it seems...

Never had a 'great' one from a stubby tho!

IME.


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## adryargument (11/2/11)

Hell I wouldn't mind a bitter fat yak, bought a carton last week and it was fruitier than the missus' cocktail. Nothing like the taps.


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## jonocarroll (11/2/11)

I've tried MBFY again recently [bottled] and found it to be very thin. I recall having it on tap a couple of years ago and I don't remember it being anywhere near that thin. I can't really attribute this to handling conditions. The hoppiness and bitterness were roughly the same as I recalled.


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## Shed101 (11/2/11)

BribieG said:


> I was too pissed to climb the hill, having been on the turps with TidalPete, Batz, Screwtop and roboscot since 10 AM :chug:
> IH next Wednesday if you are still on.
> 
> General annoucement: International Hotel Spring Hill Wednesday 4 till late session anyone interested to sup Rudy's brews (five bucks a pint)



oooh.


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## TerritoryBrew (12/2/11)

pmash said:


> Yes mate, I , and friends, have had the same problem. The first time I have ever been angry enough to voice a complaint to a manufacturer.
> 
> This is a copy of my email, and CUBs :angry: response;
> 
> enquiry Well done guys, you've really destroyed your best beer and all my hard work convincing everybody I know and meet to try it! Fat Yak is now fucked! Sorry, won't be buying any more.You worked hard for market acceptance and then dumb it down, why?



This is probably one of the most offensive and badly written complaint letters, no wonder you received a generic response. What were you expecting by smashing the product? Perhaps that the brewer would write back and say 'Oh, yeah, Thursday's batch was average, actually a bit below par but we decided to throw it out there and see if anyone noticed." Whilst you are right in complaining if you thought the product was sub-par, you need to temper it with some common sense. If you placed a beer into a show and the result was 'tasted like crap, didn't like it and he could have done better' then you would be (rightfully) annoyed, if not angry. Perhaps a more articulate response explaining what you found the faults to be would have given CUB more of a basis to respond to you.

TB.


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## bum (12/2/11)

Cocko said:


> Had it once of a many times on tap, it must have been really fresh, and it was a very well balanced, fresh tasting hoppy great beer - IMO [That time] an awesome beer.. Luck of the draw it seems...
> 
> Never had a 'great' one from a stubby tho!


I agree with both of these statements completely.

One time on tap it was a pretty nice; hop forward, slight American grassiness, noticeable malt. Pretty good considering it was next to Draught and Kirin on the font. Every other time - dry, boring crap.

For a while it was my go-to supermarket brew but it got so bland (swapped to Invalid Stout regardless of the weather/what I was in the mood for) but now I won't even touch the Yak. Such a bland, nothing beer - not really any sort of alternative to the megas.


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## jivesucka (12/2/11)

I am a bit miffed by all the comments here. CUB have made a bold move at stealing some faithful coopers drinkers and welcoming them to the CUB camp. You bastards have the audacity to criticize their honest efforts and intentions in an all-out smear campaign. Shame on you all, you make me sick to the stomach.


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## roo_dr (12/2/11)

I've found that my enjoyment of Fat Yak depends upon the establishment I consume it in. If they look after their lines, it's still a mighty fine drink. If they don't - well, I don't drink there anymore...

Looking forward to Fat Yak Sunday next weekend, 20th Feb. It's going to be a cracker!


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## mje1980 (12/2/11)

I must be lucky, i dont think i've had a bad one yet.


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## [email protected] (12/2/11)

I have only ever had it in bottles.
I would not say it tastes like crap.
Very one dimensional, and bland.
Since trying it a year ago and having it again a few times, i can say it is now something i wont buy again.
Has it changed? or has my tastes changed? 
I think my tastes have changed heaps, i now demand a lot more flavour in my brews.
Maybe a little from column A and B perhaps?


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## Nick JD (12/2/11)

Does it have Nelson Sauvin in it? If that's the one a mate handed me once at a BBQ probably 18 months ago, then I recall I quite liked it. 

Took one sip and said, "Nelson." Then I had to explain myself. Then everyone went to sleep because most people enjoy drinking more than brewing it seems.


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## Shed101 (12/2/11)

Nick JD said:


> ... most people enjoy drinking more than brewing it seems.



Weird. So what do they do with all their storage space, spare time, money, computer, dreams ...


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## jonocarroll (12/2/11)

jivesucka said:


> I am a bit miffed by all the comments here. CUB have made a bold move at stealing some faithful coopers drinkers and welcoming them to the CUB camp.


Firstly, it's labeled by Matilda Bay - which some would still regard as a microbrewery. If the market is people who drink based on the parent company and recent business deals, then surely that's a pretty small market. Then again, to suggest that this beer was carefully crafted by CUB to meet that market's needs, well that just sounds silly.



jivesucka said:


> You bastards have the audacity to criticize their honest efforts and intentions in an all-out smear campaign. Shame on you all, you make me sick to the stomach.


On noes! Someone is criticizing something on the internets. Close the whole thing down! 'All-out smear campaign'? - Sure, we've got a national televised commercial, newspaper ads, and three celebrities hosting fundraising dinners in honour of our cause. Certainly more than a few brewers on a forum discussing their thoughts on a beer.

Seriously, if this makes you so sick... don't read the thread. Besides, your own past posts indicate that you've publicly posted unfavourable reviews of beers. Hypocrite much?


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## WitWonder (12/2/11)

Carboy said:


> When Fat Yak was first released I loved it. Over the past twelve months I have found that both bottled and tap beer its not that good as what it used to be.
> 
> I've tasted Fat Yak in NSW, ACT, SA, VIC and WA, now I'm wondering is its a storage problem i.e. too hot, too long, too cold.
> 
> ...



Yeah I drank it a bit when it first came out and quite liked it however lately it just seems to be a bland, non-descript ale. I do think that breweries adjust recipes according to feedback (sales) of a product. I imagine that FY was just a little too out there for the average CUB punter so they dulled it down. Just my 2c.


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## manticle (12/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Firstly, it's labeled by Matilda Bay - which some would still regard as a microbrewery. If the market is people who drink based on the parent company and recent business deals, then surely that's a pretty small market. Then again, to suggest that this beer was carefully crafted by CUB to meet that market's needs, well that just sounds silly.
> 
> 
> On noes! Someone is criticizing something on the internets. Close the whole thing down! 'All-out smear campaign'? - Sure, we've got a national televised commercial, newspaper ads, and three celebrities hosting fundraising dinners in honour of our cause. Certainly more than a few brewers on a forum discussing their thoughts on a beer.
> ...



I got the impression the post was tongue in cheek


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## DJR (12/2/11)

I think bottle and draft come from different breweries. That said I wonder if CUB have batch codes that identify the brewery bottles have come from like tooheys/LN do. Not surprised if it has either changed breweries for some regions, you got an old batch (what was the best before? Close?) or they have had either seasonal variation or a change to the recipe. Might be a victim of it's own success or the retail liquor discount war, much like JS pils was. Vote with your feet and they will change it back like JS pils!


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## jonocarroll (12/2/11)

manticle said:


> I got the impression the post was tongue in cheek


If that's the case then I withdraw my objections. I don't necessarily see that the post was as such though.


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## mwd (12/2/11)

WitWonder said:


> Yeah I drank it a bit when it first came out and quite liked it however lately it just seems to be a bland, non-descript ale. I do think that breweries adjust recipes according to feedback (sales) of a product. I imagine that FY was just a little too out there for the average CUB punter so they dulled it down. Just my 2c.



+1 I missed my bus and shot into a bar for a quick one, it was the first time I tried Fat Yak on tap and I was very disappointed. Pretty bland and non-descript sums it up nicely. Even put me off buying bottles at Dans sticking to good old Brewdog Punk IPA.


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## humulus (12/2/11)

My 2 bob worth.Was a nice drop when first released,would not touch it now, if i wanna grab a carton ill fork out a few more bucks and grab a box of Pilsner Urquell!!!


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## tavas (12/2/11)

jivesucka said:


> I am a bit miffed by all the comments here. CUB have made a bold move at stealing some faithful coopers drinkers and welcoming them to the CUB camp. You bastards have the audacity to criticize their honest efforts and intentions in an all-out smear campaign. Shame on you all, you make me sick to the stomach.




I took that as a piss take too.


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## NickB (12/2/11)

BribieG said:


> I was too pissed to climb the hill, having been on the turps with TidalPete, Batz, Screwtop and roboscot since 10 AM :chug:
> IH next Wednesday if you are still on.
> 
> General annoucement: International Hotel Spring Hill Wednesday 4 till late session anyone interested to sup Rudy's brews (five bucks a pint)




Ooooh indeed. Assuming I'm at central again next week, I knock off around 3..... What time you looking at getting there Michael?

Might just have to trek up the hill for a couple of quiet pints.... Sorry for the OT everyone - maybe we should start a new thread....

Cheers


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## Leigh (14/2/11)

Didn't Matilda Bay move to Dandenong, Melbourne...maybe it's a water profile thing...and freshness if they closed the WA brewery???


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/2/11)

Tropical_Brews said:


> +1 I missed my bus and shot into a bar for a quick one, it was the first time I tried Fat Yak on tap and I was very disappointed. Pretty bland and non-descript sums it up nicely. Even put me off buying bottles at Dans sticking to good old Brewdog Punk IPA.



Much the same - in the bottle, fairly boring and the hop profile on it severely suffered. I even poured it into a glass (I think this is a pre-requisite for anyone criticising a beer - out of a stubby doesn't give the drinker the ability to smell the beer as they are drinking it - even if it is subconciously - smell forms a fair portion, IIRC, of taste).

But I had it on tap at the port office last november for work's melbourne cup function and it was pretty good - lovely hop bouquet on it.

The above quote - I'm thinking the same thing happened to JS sundown lager - used to have a hoppy, grassy taste to it. Now it just tastes like a boring fizzy beer. I don't think my tastes have changed that much. Maybe both Kirin-Lion Nathan and Fosters (via CUB) are dumbing down some beers. Maybe the idea is to dumb down our taste buds and slowly move us back to their megaswill quantity lines.

Goomba


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## cdbrown (14/2/11)

I ordered a few pints of Fat Yak at the Seaview Hotel in Fremantle on Friday night and it tasted just like JS Golden Ale. The bartender tasted it and then went down to check the kegs to be sure they had the right thing. The keg was labelled as Fat Yak, but it definitely wasn't. No sign of any hop flavour or bitterness, just the typical malty flavour of a golden ale. Do they brew fat yak and JSGA in the same brewery? There Seaview doesn't have any JS available so it wasn't that a tap was connected to the wrong keg.


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## DKS (14/2/11)

Nick JD said:


> Does it have Nelson Sauvin in it? If that's the one a mate handed me once at a BBQ probably 18 months ago, then I recall I quite liked it.
> 
> Took one sip and said, "Nelson." Then I had to explain myself. Then everyone went to sleep because most people enjoy drinking more than brewing it seems.



Yes Nick. AFAIK its Cascade and NS
Ive tried a few different recipes using these two hops together. They work nicely and definitely worth a try.
Daz


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## Shed101 (18/2/11)

Had this on tap at the Platform this evening.

TBH I thought this thread was all bluster - I had a couple of FYs the other week at another venue and they were really quite reasonable - floral and refreshing.

But the recipe has undoubtedly changed. Doesn't taste like crap IMHO, but seriously toned down.


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## dr K (18/2/11)

Excuse me if I am wrong but it seems a fairly common topic round these parts, not Fat Yak, but how commercial beers used to be great but now they are dumbed down. One (and I indeed may be the only one) might think that the commercial imperitave of a large company, once having spent a bomb on development of the recipe, market testing, marketing and so on to brand place a product would keep as close to the orginal as possible (witness the disaster of New Coke).
Fat Yak has established a damn fine market share in its sector, as it should, but its price has dropped, [hint hint] its about $47 a case here cf Coles HomeBrand Tas Bitter at $35 or so.
The dumbing down is not in the beer but the monday morning experts.
Two other points:
The obvious is that the brewery has no QA after the beeer has been despatched (is up to you the consumer to buy from the outlets you trust).
Our (well mine) tastes change and not always in the same direction.

K


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## rude (18/2/11)

I dont mind the FY especially the first stubby.

I have never had it on tap sounds the go.

After that it does become a bit bland.

I find it a bit overpriced I recon $40 -$45 would be a better buy.

If I brewed it I would be pretty happy with myself.

Might have to try brewing it, ale malt,/munich 1,/115ebc crystal,/nelson & cascade hops you say?

Yeast us05 or 1272.


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## Housecat (19/2/11)

rude said:


> I dont mind the FY especially the first stubby.
> 
> I have never had it on tap sounds the go.
> 
> ...




If you're into doing extracts, give this a go, I have made it a few times and really like the result. I leave out about 500g of malt and dry hop with 10g each of NS and Cascade.

HC


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## Pennywise (21/2/11)

Ok, bought a 6 pack of MBFY on Saturday, first 2 beers were just as it's always been. The other 4 were infected  Something in there striped the body right out of it, & pissed off with the aroma. F**K, I should have taken a gravity reading


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## Kevman (21/2/11)

Could the serving temperature have something to do with the lack of aroma?

This may be relevant or totally irrelevant. I did a homebrew version of Fat Yak. When I tasted the FG reading sample (~20C) at bottling, I could really taste and smell the Nelson. I thought this was going to be a cracking beer. After leaving it for a month, I tasted it a couple of nights ago, I couldn't taste or smell the Nelson at all. I left the bottle out of the fridge for approx 30 to 45 minutes and let it warm up a bit, maybe a degree or two warmer, the next glass really had the nelson sauvin hops come to the fore.

I've also noticed at pubs that sometimes, you get a really good Fat Yak and other times, it's like an aussie bitter. Maybe the serving temperature of the beer could have an impact. I don't know what the recommended serving temperature is for Fat Yak. In fact, I don't even know if there are recommended serving temperatures for different beers.


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## Mikedub (21/2/11)

I've heard a lot of people rave about Fat Yak, I dont geddit, its aroma is good, but the way it rounds off in the mouth makes me feel off, 
feels like a hop milkshake, blah 

just puttin it out there


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## Sammus (21/2/11)

OK, another one on the wagon. I thought this thread was the old "they don't make em like they used to" bullshit that you read all the time, but after a 6er of FY bought in newcastle on the weekend, and trying it on tap at a couple different pubs, I gotta say it seems like something weird has happened. Poured crystal clear golden, next to zero body, hop flavour or aroma. Tasted not far from VB :\ wtf?! FY used to be comperable to LCPA, is far from it now. At least, it was on the weekend.


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## HoppingMad (21/2/11)

Seems fine on tap to me. Even better when the alternative tapheads next to it say VB, Carlton Draught or Pure Blonde (shudder on the last one).

Never tried this from bottle so maybe it's just the packaged version that's an issue? I guess I'm drinking it only fresh in the CBD of Melbourne - either at Transport or Yak Bar so it's always been a fruity fresh one there.

Dr K does have a point though about the discounting on cartons of this stuff - and we have seen other megabrewers cut corners on ingredients (see James Squire subbing for amarillo on occasion during 'shortages' - well documented on AHB).

Hopper.


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## Fents (21/2/11)

Just had two pots of the yak with lunch today and it was fine maybe not as hoppy as when it first came out but still fine regardless. Remember its a crossover beer to us and not a holy grail.


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## Brad Churchill (21/2/11)

Serving temp. definately makes a difference.
Have an Epic Mayhem in the fridge at the moment recommended serving temp is 5C.
Had a TTL last night recomended serving temp is 11C - 14C.
Drink a beer colder than its recomended serving temp. and generally speeking you will only taste a fraction it has to offer. Aroma too

So I would say you are spot on with the aroma coming through ata slightly warmer temp.


Cheers


Kevman said:


> Could the serving temperature have something to do with the lack of aroma?
> 
> This may be relevant or totally irrelevant. I did a homebrew version of Fat Yak. When I tasted the FG reading sample (~20C) at bottling, I could really taste and smell the Nelson. I thought this was going to be a cracking beer. After leaving it for a month, I tasted it a couple of nights ago, I couldn't taste or smell the Nelson at all. I left the bottle out of the fridge for approx 30 to 45 minutes and let it warm up a bit, maybe a degree or two warmer, the next glass really had the nelson sauvin hops come to the fore.
> 
> I've also noticed at pubs that sometimes, you get a really good Fat Yak and other times, it's like an aussie bitter. Maybe the serving temperature of the beer could have an impact. I don't know what the recommended serving temperature is for Fat Yak. In fact, I don't even know if there are recommended serving temperatures for different beers.


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## Nick JD (21/2/11)

How's the Nelson Sauvin crop (and stocks) holding up? 

It might be a situation where it _has _to change. Case in point: Citra. Demand drives the hop price up - or it simply is sold out.

What would you do if you had a public wanting a gazillion hectoliters and you had a tonne of Nelson left? 

Personally, I'd bung in a few bottles of Sauv Blanc and take a wizz in it - and maybe the folks at the competition deliberately buy up their competitor's crop to stifle their popular beers.

I wouldn't like to know the bitchiness behind brewing.


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## damianjthorpe (21/2/11)

G'day Brewers,

Had a FY from tap at Melbourne Q Club today. Was ok. Usual hop taste and quite cloudy. I agree with those who say when one of the "good" beers becomes popular, the taste changes due to the need to pump out a higher volume at the cost of the original recipe. Just my 2c worth.

Cheers and happy brewing,
DAmo


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## kiwisteveo (21/2/11)

use to drink fat yak all the time then move to alpha and that made fat yak taste like nothing,then yesterday was havin a few home brews(aussie pale ale,american pale ale and even a couple of hefe's)then ran out of cold homebrews so all that was left in the fridge were coopers green and fark me they tasted horrible almost like carlton draught so my point is do we get used to something (stronger in malt,hops etc,etc)then go back to something we've had before and loved and doesn't quite cut the mustard anymore??


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (21/2/11)

Maybe it has something to do with drinking from the stubbie.

I had this inkling so I tested it with MB Big Helga. Had 2 the other night into a glass - fantastic, floral, aromatic, malty.

Drank one out of a stubbie last night - fizzy and lifeless. So I poured the 2nd into a glass, and it's all good.

It makes sense it'll be better in a glass. After all 1. Olfactory senses form a fair portion of taste and 2. We brewers put hops in beer for bitterness, flavour and aroma, so it goes to figure that if we can't smell the beer (being in a stubbie), how will it be balanced to what the brewer wants.

Just 2

Goomba


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## damianjthorpe (21/2/11)

G'day Brewers,

Agree with Goomba, gotta use the right glass for the beer. Stubbies are terrible to drink from, all tastes crap.

Cheers and happy brewing,
Damo


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## DUANNE (21/2/11)

i dont think fy has changed much at all. for my taste it has been incredibly inconsistent from day one.


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