# Goodbye Bronwyn



## Ducatiboy stu (2/8/15)

I think I clapped just a little bit

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-02/bronwyn-bishop-stands-down-as-speaker/6666172


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## JDW81 (2/8/15)

Apparently she's been a victim of the system and hasn't done anything wrong. Sums up our "leaders" really.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/8/15)

I think the tree is going to get a shake....

I bet there a few in Parliament who should be worried...

Big Tone is on the radar now.....


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## tugger (2/8/15)

They all need to be kept in check. 
The age of entitlement seems to be coming to an end not only for us greater masses but for them also.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/8/15)

Live by the sword die by the sword. Power of the people. NEVER FORGET IT! Practice what you preach. Walk your talk!
None surprising at all.


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## Camo6 (2/8/15)

Just another Patsy to appease the masses. It'll blow over in a few weeks once the media lets go of it. It's certainly not a party driven vilification. That would be a tad hypocritical.
Anyway, there's more pressing issues. Would you believe there are white supremacists bumping AFL attendances just to boo Adam Goodes?


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## kalbarluke (2/8/15)

I will miss the helicopter based memes.


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## Bribie G (2/8/15)

Ancient Greek proverb:

You can dress a monkey in silver sandals, but it will still be a monkey.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/8/15)

You can put lipstick on a pig....


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## Danscraftbeer (2/8/15)

yeah the new day has its flaws too but back dated politics in Australia really is embarrassing.


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## DU99 (2/8/15)

how many other's is there....


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## spog (2/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Just another Patsy to appease the masses. It'll blow over in a few weeks once the media lets go of it. It's certainly not a party driven vilification. That would be a tad hypocritical.
> Anyway, there's more pressing issues. Would you believe there are white supremacists bumping AFL attendances just to boo Adam Goodes?


Bang on the ( our ) money there.
Oh so many pollies have been curiously absent from the beat up on this, the media is making a motza from reporting on this when no laws have been broken FFS all parties truly do have our issues at heart,this is obvious as they are all making a mountain out of ...well **** all.
And can someone please tell me when did the booing of Adam Goodes equate to racism....umm got it...media,backed up by dim witted people who believe every thing they read with out checking facts ,......ahh shit this ain't he rant thread.
Beer,beer where the hell did I put my beer,now that is important.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/8/15)

spog said:


> Bang on the ( our ) money there.
> Oh so many pollies have been curiously absent from the beat up on this, the media is making a motza from reporting on this when no laws have been broken FFS all parties truly do have our issues at heart,this is obvious as they are all making a mountain out of ...well **** all.
> And can someone please tell me when did the booing of Adam Goodes equate to racism....umm got it...media,backed up by dim witted people who believe every thing they read with out checking facts ,......ahh shit this ain't he rant thread.
> Beer,beer where the hell did I put my beer,now that is important.


Absolutely! Sit back and mock the ridiculous world we live in. B) :chug:


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## Airgead (2/8/15)

spog said:


> And can someone please tell me when did the booing of Adam Goodes equate to racism....


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-30/charlie-pickering-weekly-adam-goodes-booing/6659532

Just sayin....


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## manticle (2/8/15)

Goodes thing a separate issue 

Happy to see the back of that horrible bishop person. Ding dong and all that.


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## manticle (2/8/15)

Separate issue being wake up and stop excusing bullshit unintelligent behaviour by the way.


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## Camo6 (2/8/15)

Airgead said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-30/charlie-pickering-weekly-adam-goodes-booing/6659532
> 
> Just sayin....


No. Just relaying another media article. Nom nom nom. It's filling but leaves a funny taste in the mouth.


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## manticle (2/8/15)

It is just another media article.
Does anyone believe the Adam Goodes booing phenomenon and his racial background is entirely coincidental?

Forgetting alan jones' and andrew bolt's perspectives for a wee minute, does anyone think there might be something in that?

Or is it just a part of the game we all see every week?


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## Airgead (2/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> No. Just relaying another media article. Nom nom nom. It's filling but leaves a funny taste in the mouth.


No... from an outsider's perspective (to me AFL is the second dumbest game ever invented), AFL fans look like a bunch of racist fucktards. The only player in the AFL who gets booed like that just happens to be the one who make a point of his indigenous culture. Gimme a break. Other players act up to get free kicks but don't get booed because they happen to be white.

But yeah. Glad Bronny is gone. Good riddance.

Edit: fingers not work good after beer and wine and whiskey.


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## Camo6 (2/8/15)

manticle said:


> Separate issue being wake up and stop excusing bullshit unintelligent behaviour by the way.


By telling football supporters to stop being racists by booing their teams opponent? I agree it's bullshit unintelligent behaviour but inflaming the issue by focusing so much attention on it aint gonna help shit. There's no conspiracy. The media puts it in everyone's face and the knee-jerk reaction is inevitable.

This media focus on Bishop is one of the few examples of media journalism I can approve of considering they're focusing on an issue that would otherwise go unlooked. They all misspend and to call out another would be political suicide. Sadly, we need more Xenophons.


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## manticle (2/8/15)

I don't believe it's a conspiracy, from either side.

Booing is pretty boring to me in any sport. Never been a fan of it except (grudingly) when booing blatant bad sportsmanship.

I'd be surprised if anyone could tell me there's no racial motivation in this instance and keep a straight face.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/8/15)

Haha! I love this forum.

Racism? it has been a part of a catalyst of genuine multicultural bonding you totally retarded fucktards of new age confusion!!!!!


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## Camo6 (2/8/15)

Airgead said:


> No... from an outsider's perspective (to me AFL is the second dumbest game ever invented), AFL fans look like a bunch of racist fucktards. The only player in the AFL who gets booed like that just happens to be the one who make a point of his indigenous culture. Gimme a break. Other players act up to get free kicks but don't get booed because they happen to be white.
> 
> But yeah. Glad Bronny is gone. Good riddance.
> 
> Edit: fingers not work good after beer and wine and whiskey.


Can't say I've watched a game of AFL for a long time. Australia is a racist nation. A very short history with a relatively rapid integration with other cultures, what can be expected? It's human nature. No amount of coffee shops or delicatessens will change it unfortunately.


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## manticle (2/8/15)

I slap you in defiance with aged proscuitto.


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## Camo6 (2/8/15)

A quick riposte with burnt chops,mash and peas.


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## Fylp (2/8/15)

Throughout this whole bronny b fiasco, I can't stop thinking of Slipper. He used a taxi for a personal wine tour, bronny goes hard and gets the soft treatment. He'd be fuming.


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## manticle (2/8/15)

He did finger his secretary when they weren't looking.


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## manticle (2/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Haha! I love this forum.
> 
> Racism? it has been a part of a catalyst of genuine multicultural bonding you totally retarded fucktards of new age confusion!!!!!


Can you break that down into meaningful segments for the retards and fucktards among us? As it's currently written, it makes no sense.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/8/15)

Fylp said:


> Throughout this whole bronny b fiasco, I can't stop thinking of Slipper. He used a taxi for a personal wine tour, bronny goes hard and gets the soft treatment. He'd be fuming.


Dollars for dollars? Slipper $800 for crap I dont care about. Bishop, $5ooo just for a few hours chopper ride. And then more if you look into it more. The reality observation is to see hypocrisy of our pollies. To see they're priorities are more invested to put dirt on their oppositions rather than input into the kitchen. I dont' know who to vote for if that is my only say.`


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## Danscraftbeer (2/8/15)

manticle said:


> Can you break that down into meaningful segments for the retards and fucktards among us? As it's currently written, it makes no sense.


Sorry, having troubles with tech atm. It makes total sense to the best people I know. (that happen to be multicultural)


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## manticle (2/8/15)

I'm multicutural and among the best people I know.


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## madpierre06 (3/8/15)

manticle said:


> He did finger his secretary when they weren't looking.


Ewwwww!!! That just put me right off my toast and coffee.


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## mwd (3/8/15)

If Bronwyn takes up football wonder if she would get booed. He He the Bishop Wanderes League Division One. First Class to the USA conference.


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## hellbent (3/8/15)

I just love the way the pollies rip off the system big time with their fraudelent perks and likes, but as soon as they get found out they instantly pay the dough back and say "sorry" and expect all to be forgiven....the hungry bastards have been at it for years and it's about time it was knocked on the head.

The average Joe Blow has had to tighten up big time with their spending habits to survive, now its time the pollies expenses were much more closely scrutinised and bought into line.... Make them fly Business, or even Premium class instead of 1st class when going overseas... put them up in less expensive hotels.... go for something less expensive when traveling on road trips instead of getting chauffered in a friggin RR... and perhaps drink good Aussie wine (or maybe some DSGA) instead of slipping down Moets Dom Pérignon champagne.

They say their wages are shit, yet every election they fight like crazy women just to get elected and to keep their jobs. It's about bloody time they realised they are elected into office to help us...Not help themselves!!

I say get rid of all forms of current governments, Federal, State, and Local etc. and bring on a Republic!.....

Gentlemen....that concludes this sermon....hallelujah!!

Edited for additional content, not that it matters


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

manticle said:


> Can you break that down into meaningful segments for the retards and fucktards among us? As it's currently written, it makes no sense.


Can you get that Halal certified...


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## Tropico (3/8/15)

The politicians just write "travel for parliamentary business" on the claim form and they are paid without question.

After Bronwyn's first 2 false starts: "I've paid back the money, isn't that enough of an apology" and "I'm sorry that I didn't apologise earlier" (and she still hasn't actually apologised yet), resigning from Speaker is just the first step.

The next step for her is to resign from parliament.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

I bet she will retire at the next election.


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## Tropico (3/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I bet she will retire at the next election.


I really would question the Libs if she got pre-selection


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## yankinoz (3/8/15)

May I suggest a going-away present for a woman of her refined tastes, perhaps a slab of Red Bitter?


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)




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## Rod (3/8/15)

Nobody makes a mention of Chris Bowen


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## Rod (3/8/15)

let he is innocent caste the first stone


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## TheWiggman (3/8/15)

The main issue here is that she has been 'out of touch' for far too long. She's a long-term politician, of course she would think she's entitled to these things. In the early days it would be a taxi to and from venues, occasional private group vehicle for organised events and tea and scones during lunch meetings. Further down the line the scones because main courses, the tea becomes wine and the line between what's fair and reasonable broadens to one's own perspective on their input to their party. After spending >25 years in office getting paid for by the taxpayer the corporate card would simply be considered part of the salary in her eyes. Nay, the eyes of most of those in office and particularly those lining the front benches. From my media-driven perspective on all this BB hasn't managed to recognise that she is in fact 'out of touch' with the commoners and how much some people in this country value a dollar. She's not working for a private company making huge profits, she's working for the Australian Government for a country in deficit. While ever there are people out there who want to work but can't, some discretion is in order.
If she can't recognise that there needs to be discretion then this has nothing to do with 'the system'. Time to go. You would have to question general attitude towards spending across the board, not just on personal business.

Barnaby Joyce made a fair comment - "In this game you start throwing rocks and there won't be a person left in the Parliament because everyone will have some issue somewhere in the past that is difficult to explain."
Hopefully there aren't too many chopper bookings. I can imagine there have been a lot of nervous politicians covering tracks over the past few weeks.


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## technobabble66 (3/8/15)

_@Tropico:_
_Then_ you would question it??

Have you read her achievements in parliament? - almost all are highlights of embarrassment. There's not really anything that would be deemed a benefit to the people she was voted to represent:

She advocated cigarette advertising while Shadow Minister for Health - on her first day in office! Was removed from office shortly afterwards.
Was the Minister for Aged Care from 1998-2001. During 2000 it was revealed residents in a NSW facility were bathed in kerosene to treat scabies. This led to an outcry over the standards of care maintained by her department. Was removed from office shortly afterwards.
Became Speaker of the House of Representatives in Nov, 2013. Unlike previous Speakers, openly advocated for government policy and showed substantial bias in her management of the House. During her term she ejected 393 Labor MPs from the House, but only 7 LNP MPs. Found to have made dubious claims of expenses. Was removed from office shortly afterwards.
A pattern??

Other highlights:
2005 - called for headscarves to be banned in schools, saying "in most cases the headscarf is being worn as a sign of defiance and difference between non-Muslim and Muslim students" whereas "does not believe that a ban on the Jewish skull cap is necessary, because people of the Jewish faith have not used the skull cap as a way of campaigning against the Australian culture, laws and way of life." Even John Howard didn't back this one. (though Sophie Mirabella did - another great MP of the community!).
2006 - headed a Standing Committee on Family and Human Services whose report that advocated the mandatory adoption of children under 5 years old of parents known to use drugs. Heavily criticised by a range of organisations. Report recommendations were not adopted.
2006 - sought to make burning or mutilation of the aussie flag a criminal offence. Read once in Parliament then quietly ignored.

I honestly couldn't find anything positive on record to offset all the stuff mentioned above. Longest serving female MP (28yrs), and what the hell has she done for the betterment of the Australian people??
Happy to be corrected, but it's a pretty poor record.
Glad to be rid of her.

Now, they/we just need to fix the system that allows MPs to make these dubious claims. Why isn't it treated just like the ATO does to tax? - a team of accountants filter all claims and simply say what is appropriate and what isn't.
Clearly a system based on the moral & ethical standards of MPs is/has/will be abused by some unscrupulous MPs who lack a sufficient code of ethics.


I love the entry some scallywag put into the opening paragraph on Bronwyn Bishop in Wikipedia, which i assume will soon be edited out for obvious reasons:
"Bron Perignon finally "fell on her rotor blade" and resigned after weeks of turbulence."


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## technobabble66 (3/8/15)

Rod said:


> Nobody makes a mention of Chris Bowen


That he's atheist and doesn't believe in God or Tony Abbott?

h34r: :lol:


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

Maybe if the pollies had to pay the expense up front out of their own pocket, ( like happens in private business) then claim it back latter it might stop the roting


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## Weizguy (3/8/15)

My concern is how will we make her accountable for, and make her repay, when she's unemployed?

Let's get ALL that money back!

Happy for her to continue in the job, just not doing a job on the taxpayer.


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## sponge (3/8/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> My concern is how will we make her accountable for, and make her repay, when she's unemployed?
> 
> Let's get ALL that money back!
> 
> Happy for her to continue in the job, just not doing a job on the taxpayer.


I'm sure the polly-pension would sufficiently cover those costs.. and still be able to live a life of luxury.


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## madpierre06 (3/8/15)

Her greatest achievement - Tony Abbott's mentor. What a legacy!


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## Tropico (3/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> I honestly couldn't find anything positive on record to offset all the stuff mentioned above. Longest serving female MP (28yrs), and what the hell has she done for the betterment of the Australian people??


Totally agree.

Apparently she is very good at raising funds for the Liberal party, and without her vote and the votes of 2 of her cronies she controls, Tony Abbott would probably not be the leader of the Party or PM.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> My concern is how will we make her accountable for, and make her repay, when she's unemployed?


I wonder if they will make her wait 6 months without payments like what they have in mind for the "lower" class


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## Dave70 (3/8/15)

Never mind. 
I'm sure Bronnie will console herself with her commonwealth Gold card and 100k + pension.


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## mwd (3/8/15)

She is at least six years over the retirement age anyways now time to go out to grass and use up all those frequent flyer points.

My guess would be Philip Ruddock for next speaker another old codger with nothing to do.


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## Dave70 (3/8/15)

I bet she could get some nice luggage or a four burner BBQ with those points.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

She might buy a WW


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## Rod (3/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> That he's atheist and doesn't believe in God or Tony Abbott?
> 
> h34r: :lol:


not that , he too was found to be in the entitlement allowance and paid back the money for a family trip


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## wobbly (3/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> She might buy a WW


Hmmm

Decisions, decisions to bite or not that's the question

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

wobbly said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Decisions, decisions to bite or not that's the question
> 
> Wobbly


Will trow in free delivery by helicopter B)


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## GrumpyPaul (3/8/15)

Tropical_Brews said:


> My guess would be Philip Ruddock for next speaker another old codger with nothing to do.


Arrogant miserable old Cnut.

Was involved a few years back in launching some centres that he was "ribbon cutting" we did 4 in one day.

Met him at the first, was introduced by name "here's Paul - he's coordinating our launches today" shook my hand and all. Chatted briefly for a bit.

An hour and a half later at the next opening - he had no idea who I was. Asked me who I was and where from - I politely remind him we met this morning.

This happened all four times - prick will shake your hand look you in the eye and still pay you know attention. It's like talking into a vacuum.


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## sponge (3/8/15)

I often find vacuums to have a better personality.


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## seamad (3/8/15)




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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

http://pedestrian.tv/news/arts-and-culture/putyourwalletsout-for-bronwyn-bishop-trends-across/76f0c05b-89a5-449f-a0a7-80c7257ce707.htm


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## manticle (3/8/15)

Rod said:


> let he is innocent caste the first stone


Would happily chuck inanimate objects straight at the compassionless smug cow's face.
I wish more women were in politics because the world is mostly run by ageing white men.

I just don't want any of them to be like Bishop, Palin, Thatcher, Lambie, Hanson, Rice or Vanstone.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

Not many left Manticle...


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## Bridges (3/8/15)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Arrogant miserable old Cnut.
> 
> . It's like talking into a vacuum.


So miserable old suck hole would be a fair description of him.


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## goomboogo (3/8/15)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Arrogant miserable old Cnut.
> 
> Was involved a few years back in launching some centres that he was "ribbon cutting" we did 4 in one day.
> 
> ...


He's probably got alzheimer's. He fits one of the risk factors by being over 80 years of age.


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## spog (3/8/15)

manticle said:


> Would happily chuck inanimate objects straight at the compassionless smug cow's face.
> I wish more women were in politics because the world is mostly run by ageing white men.
> I just don't want any of them to be like Bishop, Palin, Thatcher, Lambie, Hanson, Rice or Vanstone.


You missed Wong.


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## MastersBrewery (3/8/15)

The bit that gets my goat is, she gets caught with her hand in the cookie jar, now not only is she not getting sacked but when she does go she'll still get a golden hand shake. How many Aussies get to steal from the boss and keep their entitlements, none - most get arrested, and sacked on the spot. And don't give me the oh but she wasn't stealing crap, these people have staff, paid for by you and me, who are there to help them with this sort of stuff, that young bloke (19 I think, youngest parliamentarian) would have no idea about expenses, that is what the staff are there for. Problem being some have been around for just way too long and have learned just how easy it is to rort the Aussie tax payer.
Until we decide to start voting for people with real experience in real life, and not people who's only claim to fame is to be able to argue a point without fact and lie with a straight face; politicians will always be out for one thing and that is their own accumulation of power. Yes there are politicians out there that do a lot of hard work, but there are facets of government that should be Apolitical. The Netherlands Department of water is such a government service, the sitting government doesn't tell them what they need, they just bill the treasury directly. Health and Education I believe are 2 that should just be run by doctors and teachers and note I don't believe either ministry has had the former at it's head. We spend a whole lot of money teaching the next new minister what senior Educators already know, same with health, and usually a few years later they move to a new portfolio and we do it again! ????


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## manticle (3/8/15)

spog said:


> You missed Wong.


Like her or not, I wouldn't put her in the same boat as any of those.

Thatcher, vanstone, bishop, rice : intelligent, hardworking, compassionless, horrible, inhuman.

Bannister, palin, hanson: unintelligent and compassionless. Hardworking to a degree (latter 2 anyway) but lazy minded, lacking empathy.

Lambie is somewhere in the middle. Intelligent enough to know better, too stupid to care.

Bring back stott-despoja.


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## Bridges (3/8/15)

MastersBrewery said:


> Until we decide to start voting for people with real experience in real life,


Today though most people wouldn't vote for a train driver who left school at 15. The other side would tear him down and the press would help.

That is one of our better PM's CV though. Look up Ben Chifley and what he achieved while in office.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/15)

I would love to see Wong as PM...

The Christian Liberal menfolk would be having kittens...


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## MastersBrewery (3/8/15)

Bridges said:


> Today though most people wouldn't vote for a train driver who left school at 15. The other side would tear him down and the press would help.
> 
> That is one of our better PM's CV though. Look up Ben Chifley and what he achieved while in office.


And all so those in power and in "political life" can stay there, and back then, getting to train driver meant you had done all the other jobs on the way up, probably started as a junior on a platform or book boy in a signal box.


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## dicko (3/8/15)

Wong with a "strap on" = Wrong

Now, at least, someone is wrong,...go figure!!

Pauline, to my knowledge, does not condone a "strap on"

Pauline could be wrong but never Wong....

Sorry, just out of control like many others.... 

and nothing whatsoever to do with a helicopter and a fish named Bronwyn...


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## butisitart (3/8/15)

our brommy built her reputation in the 80s 90s on skinning alive any commonwealth dept heads who went a bit astray wasting ANY of the public purse on anything at all. hope the feds do her for fraud.


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## madpierre06 (3/8/15)

manticle said:


> Palin, unintelligent and compassionless. Hardworking to a degree (latter 2 anyway) but lazy minded, lacking empathy.



To quote the lovely Sarah: "Water-boarding, that's how we baptize terrorists".


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## pcmfisher (4/8/15)

manticle said:


> Like her or not, I wouldn't put her in the same boat as any of those.
> 
> Thatcher, vanstone, bishop, rice : intelligent, hardworking, compassionless, horrible, inhuman.
> 
> ...


What about Julia? No mention of her.
Shifty, incompetent, Australia's worst ever prime minister.


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## Exile (4/8/15)

or Christine Milne :icon_vomit:


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## welly2 (4/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Shifty, incompetent, Australia's worst ever prime minister.


That sounds like Abbott you're describing to a tee.


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## spog (4/8/15)

manticle said:


> Like her or not, I wouldn't put her in the same boat as any of those.
> Thatcher, vanstone, bishop, rice : intelligent, hardworking, compassionless, horrible, inhuman.
> Bannister, palin, hanson: unintelligent and compassionless. Hardworking to a degree (latter 2 anyway) but lazy minded, lacking empathy.
> Lambie is somewhere in the middle. Intelligent enough to know better, too stupid to care.
> Bring back stott-despoja.


Our opinions differ , I was interested with a debate the other day between Wong and another pollie ( Brandis ) ? About marriage equality and Wong threw in a remark about beastiality,now to my mind if he mentioned this to her she would have gotten on her high horse and moaned about it.
That's my take on her ...
And Stott- Despoja ...agh,the best thing she did for politics is to get out.
My 2 cents worth.


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## manticle (4/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What about Julia? No mention of her.
> Shifty, incompetent, Australia's worst ever prime minister.


Incompetent yes but not an inhuman arsehole.


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## manticle (4/8/15)

Or cloaca


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## spog (4/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What about Julia? No mention of her.
> Shifty, incompetent, Australia's worst ever prime minister.


Yep, she was misunderstood because" clearly "we all failed to "embrace and engage "with each other as we all "moved forward" to....umm,one of the biggest political **** ups in this countries history.


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## dicko (4/8/15)

I say bring back Bob Menzies........


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## goomboogo (4/8/15)

spog said:


> Our opinions differ , I was interested with a debate the other day between Wong and another pollie ( Brandis ) ? About marriage equality and Wong threw in a remark about beastiality,now to my mind if he mentioned this to her she would have gotten on her high horse and moaned about it.
> That's my take on her ...
> And Stott- Despoja ...agh,the best thing she did for politics is to get out.
> My 2 cents worth.


It was Cory Bernardi. The bestiality remark was made in reference to Bernardi's previous claims that same-sex marriage was the beginning of a slippery slope that could ultimately result in people marrying animals.


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## Danscraftbeer (4/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What about Julia? No mention of her.
> Shifty, incompetent, Australia's worst ever prime minister.


I'm scepticle of that. Thrown in too early perhaps of party turmoil but thats all water under the bridge now.
Personally i think maybe its all outdated. As we all are In the current of our modern day.


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## manticle (4/8/15)

How could anyone confuse dr bunsen honeydew with corey bastardi?

If that's the case spog -as above. There is a context for the bestiality reference. It's the reason Corey Bernardi was moved from front to back bench. Utter arsehole that man.


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## Bribie G (4/8/15)

Just about every member of the LNP cabinet is a piece of human shit, Corey must be a doubleturd.


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## Tropico (4/8/15)

manticle said:


> Or cloaca


Thank you for the image, not

A place I'd rather not go


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## jyo (4/8/15)

manticle said:


> Or cloaca


Glad you were inclusive of reptiles.


----------



## Brew Forky (5/8/15)

An anagram of "Bronwyn Bishop" is "Wry hobnob spin". I'll throw in "Doomed saga" for "Adam Goodes" while I'm at it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/15)

Farty Towels

Flowery Twats

Flay Otters

Fatty Owls

Watery Fowls



...fuggin politics


----------



## mwd (5/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What about Julia? No mention of her.
> Shifty, incompetent, Australia's worst ever prime minister.


\
"There will be NO Carbon Tax on any of my First Class Flights EVER ! "


----------



## booargy (5/8/15)

Mostly blokes whine about Gullard because they don't like being told what to do by a woman. These are the blokes who also whinge about their wives.


----------



## Dave70 (5/8/15)

booargy said:


> Mostly blokes whine about Gullard because they don't like being told what to do by a woman. These are the blokes who also whinge about their wives.


Well some maby. But I never really complain about my wife. Julia however struck me as a bumbling straws in the hair borderline socialist thoroughly out of depth whos most memorable moments were playing the sexism card in a bizarre fifteen minute rant, cradling some balls of yarn for Women's Weekly and faceplanting in an Indian garden.


Julie Bishop for PM.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Julie Bishop for PM.


She will death stare us into submission


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/8/15)

Penny Wong is about as infallible as politicians can get*. Minimal bullshit, knows what she's talking about.

*not saying much, but still..


----------



## Dave70 (5/8/15)

Wong is a triple threat.
Smart as a whip, Malaysian born and lesbian. 
Even if she never runs for PM, she's a shoe in for Australian Story.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/8/15)

^ haha


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Wong is a triple threat.
> Smart as a whip, Malaysian born and lesbian.
> Even if she never runs for PM, she's a shoe in for Australian Story.


Doesnt get any better than that..

But I dont think Tony would approve...well....not until she goes to church and becomes a man


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/8/15)

Yeah. Well I wasn't referring to her being a wooza or a lezzo or an azn. More as a politician.


----------



## madpierre06 (5/8/15)

Regardless of whether she played the feminist card at the time, the one thing which impressed me about Gillard was that at least she was completely natural when she unloaded on the mad monk, none of the Mrs. Robotto diction that the image shapers imposed on her speech patterns. It was all real, completely understandable given the crap the she had thrown at her by that lowlife A Jones, which the aforementioned mad monk then coat-tailed onto. In my opinion, Abbott's behaviour at the time should have caused terminal damage to any further political growth.


----------



## Weizguy (5/8/15)

spog said:


> Our opinions differ , I was interested with a debate the other day between Wong and another pollie ( Brandis ) ? About marriage equality and Wong threw in a remark about beastiality,now to my mind if he mentioned this to her she would have gotten on her high horse and moaned about it.
> That's my take on her ...
> And Stott- Despoja ...agh,the best thing she did for politics is to get out.
> My 2 cents worth.


Bestiality/ high horse. Irony, pun or coincidence?


----------



## pcmfisher (5/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Regardless of whether she played the feminist card at the time, the one thing which impressed me about Gillard was that at least she was completely natural when she unloaded on the mad monk, none of the Mrs. Robotto diction that the image shapers imposed on her speech patterns. It was all real, completely understandable given the crap the she had thrown at her by that lowlife A Jones, which the aforementioned mad monk then coat-tailed onto. In my opinion, Abbott's behaviour at the time should have caused terminal damage to any further political growth.


Was that the _real_ Julia?


----------



## Rod (5/8/15)

Looks like another poly on the gravy train

made a real Burke of himself


----------



## madpierre06 (5/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Was that the _real_ Julia?


I reckon it was, it was all too natural. She either believed the feminist bit, or fitted it alongside the rest of it while on a roll. The best and most believable lies always have an element of truth fitted in to make it believable, or the teller believes 'em him/herself..


----------



## HBHB (5/8/15)

Hey, at least she resigned with style.


----------



## Dave70 (5/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Was that the _real_ Julia?


As opposed to what? Did she have an avatar? body double? analog cyborg? Did we ever find out? 
??


----------



## spog (5/8/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Bestiality/ high horse. Irony, pun or coincidence?


BINGO ! We have a winner.
Ahh politics gets everyone wound up, yeah I'm a ......


----------



## jlm (5/8/15)

manticle said:


> Or cloaca


OT.....but have they let you feed it yet?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> It was Cory Bernardi. The bestiality remark was made in reference to Bernardi's previous claims that same-sex marriage was the beginning of a slippery slope that could ultimately result in people marrying animals.


Now THERE is a politician who serves as a leading light ....of....stupidity


----------



## manticle (5/8/15)

jlm said:


> OT.....but have they let you feed it yet?


That job fortunately falls to a related but different department. We're talking about politicians so feeding others to produce waste is entirely on topic.


----------



## JDW81 (5/8/15)

IMHO the vast majority of them are self aggrandising attention seekers who only serve the interests of the people and organisations who stump up the dough for them to run their election campaigns of fear, lies and [email protected]&t slinging so they can be re-elected.

Bishop deserved to go. Rudd/Gillard/Rudd deserved to go. Abbott deserves to go.


----------



## dicko (6/8/15)

Driving Miss Lazy


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

^haha


----------



## Tropico (6/8/15)

dicko said:


> image.jpg
> 
> Driving Miss Lazy


I'd know Tony could fly a helicopert.


----------



## JDW81 (6/8/15)

Tropico said:


> I'd know Tony could fly a helicopert.


He doesn't need to, he just turns those ears into a headwind and he's up, up and away.


----------



## 2much2spend (6/8/15)

So what's her pay out worth?


----------



## Dave70 (6/8/15)

I've withdrawn my support for Julie Bishop and now support Penny Wong for PM.

Think about it. It would be almost totally impossible to criticize her without looking like a racist, homophobic of sexist. And what a great look for a country still umming and ahhing over gay marriage. 
I've given up holding out for an inspiring leader or cult of personality, and will now settle for an authentic leadership style of governance that makes us look more 21st century on the world stage and less Victorian. 

The 'meowing' when she presents trophies at NRL grand finals or the cricket and her lack of sportiness could be issues however.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

that death stare:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHeDD9tnFw4


----------



## RobW (6/8/15)

2much2spend said:


> So what's her pay out worth?


$255K plus travel, office etc,etc


----------



## Dave70 (6/8/15)

Her clothes are saying smart casual, her eyes are saying fcuking cnut.


----------



## technobabble66 (6/8/15)

^^ @ Liam,
Hard to believe that crap still goes on, particularly in a setting like a Senate Hearing. Typical example of the kind of behaviour the likes of Wong, Julie Bishop and Gillard faced over the years, and still do even today. Let me guess, in the eyes of the Wong-haters, she is being "bossy" or "hard-nosed" or "cold" or an "ice-queen." It just seems like childish bull$#!t, and then additionally the Wong-haters seem to be indulging in a little bit of blaming the victim.
I know politics is dirty, but this kind of level of school-yard behaviour is well below of the kind of mature mentality we should expect of someone we're paying a 6 figure salary to be a leader of the community. It's a Senator that's making that meowing comment, for gawd's sake!
Obviously my expectations of leaders of our communities are completely unrealistic!

Not surprised to see Brandis there trying to aggressively brush over it. Now there's someone who clearly got wedgied too much at school ... and could probably do with some more. A politician's version of Alan Jones - conveniently they even look similar! One of the most uncompassionate, unempathic, dogmatic, & conservative politicians i've ever heard/seen!


----------



## Dave70 (6/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> I know politics is dirty, but this kind of level of school-yard behaviour is well below of the kind of mature mentality we should expect of someone we're paying a 6 figure salary to be a leader of the community.


What makes you say that?
Oh..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKF1Xjw_nt4


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Not surprised to see Brandis there trying to aggressively brush over it. Now there's someone who clearly got wedgied too much at school ... and could probably do with some more.


I have it on good authority that there exists a photo (from his uni days) of Brandis having been put down a storm water drain looking up through the bars. An arrogant true-believer, he wasn't well liked.


----------



## madpierre06 (6/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I have it on good authority that there exists a photo (from his uni days) of Brandis having been put down a storm water drain looking up through the bars. An arrogant true-believer, he wasn't well liked.



And has gone out of his way ever since to make life miserable for the rest of us.


----------



## 2much2spend (6/8/15)

RobW said:


> $255K plus travel, office etc,etc


Right new life ambition, be a really useless politician one term then a pension for life. 

Hang on! All of them have stolen my idea, they all useless


----------



## technobabble66 (6/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> An arrogant true-believer, ...


Oh yeah - i forgot arrogant, too.

I get the impression most/all of the hardcore Abbott supporters within the LNP MPs are of that "arrogant true-believer" mould. The _worst_ kind of person in a democracy (regardless of their political persuasions).

I should add i'm not necessarily any more impressed with the current ALP - i think the reason we have someone as bad as Abbott as a PM is largely because the ALP/opposition is so crap as well.
*Sigh* - if only the ALP _or_ the LNP were not so pathetic!!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Brandis [...] A politician's version of Alan Jones


I do have to pick you up on this though - Brandis is intelligent.


----------



## Howlingdog (6/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I do have to pick you up on this though - Brandis is intelligent.


So I've heard him say.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

haha yep, what a dickhead.


----------



## manticle (6/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> that death stare:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHeDD9tnFw4



Good on her. My respect just went up mildly for a politician.


----------



## dicko (6/8/15)

Tropico said:


> I'd know Tony could fly a helicopert.


I wouldn't trust him with a kite....


----------



## Weizguy (6/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> It was Cory Bernardi. The bestiality remark was made in reference to Bernardi's previous claims that same-sex marriage was the beginning of a slippery slope that could ultimately result in people marrying animals.


OK, I now see that Bernardi set the bait, by proposing the human-animal partnering, and it WAS Penny who took it to the next level by assuming that those marriages would be consummated.
Dirty Penny! Grubby, grubby...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> OK, I now see that Bernardi set the bait, by proposing the human-animal partnering, and it WAS Penny who took it to the next level by assuming that those marriages would be consummated.
> Dirty Penny! Grubby, grubby...


Well no, Bernardi's direct words were “There are even some creepy people out there, who say that it's OK to have consensual sexual relations between humans and animals. Will that be a future step?”

He resigned as shadow parliamentary secretary to Tony Abbott shortly after.


----------



## Weizguy (6/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Well no, Bernardi's direct words were “There are even some creepy people out there, who say that it's OK to have consensual sexual relations between humans and animals. Will that be a future step?”
> 
> He resigned as shadow parliamentary secretary to Tony Abbott shortly after.


It's expected when you reveal State secrets. He may even disappear to a rendition prison soon.

Also not a good move to 'out' the boss as a creepy person.


----------



## tugger (6/8/15)

There will be a few new stories in the news tomorrow. 
This is going to be a big one I have been told, a few more will be sacked.


----------



## madpierre06 (6/8/15)

tugger said:


> There will be a few new stories in the news tomorrow.
> This is going to be a big one I have been told, a few more will be sacked.


Break out the champers and pop tarts. My vote for a total cleanout, vote in a batch of independents, and make 'em work things out for the betterment of the community, not the f**king economy.


----------



## manticle (6/8/15)

Imagine if that were so.
Still if we believe yes minister/yes prime minister it's really humphrey who would be in charge.


----------



## madpierre06 (6/8/15)

Too late to be a truly independent country now anyways, we are really owned by the seriously BIG faceless boys hiding at the very top of the banking food chain.

Funny how there was very little reporting of the mad monk's mob handing 900M of our money as startup funding over to a 'wonderful' investment bank in the asian region controlled by the chinese.


----------



## Vini2ton (6/8/15)

He most certainly is, with tiers of underlings banging their heads against the wall and swearing to move to a normal (?) country.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (6/8/15)

booargy said:


> Mostly blokes whine about Gullard because they don't like being told what to do by a woman. These are the blokes who also whinge about their wives.


And thier wives hate her even more. Why? something about women with more power something?


----------



## wobbly (6/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Break out the champers and pop tarts. My vote for a total cleanout, vote in a* batch of independents*, and make 'em work things out for the betterment of the community, not the f**king economy.


F*** just imagine it - Decisions by committee!!

That is if they ever got around to making a decision

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I do have to pick you up on this though - Brandis is intelligent.


Can you please define " Intelligent"...


----------



## madpierre06 (6/8/15)

Intelligent.......or just rat cunning.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (6/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Oh yeah - i forgot arrogant, too.
> 
> I get the impression most/all of the hardcore Abbott supporters within the LNP MPs are of that "arrogant true-believer" mould. The _worst_ kind of person in a democracy (regardless of their political persuasions).
> 
> ...


They are though unfortunately. The difference is ALP are more Honest with judgement. The LNP will stand by thier leader no matter how bad they stink! just to prove they arnt like the ALP. Now that is the peak of pathetic Australian Pollitics. Well I hope it is the peak anyway.


----------



## madpierre06 (6/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> They are though unfortunately. The difference is ALP are more Honest with judgement. The LNP will stand by thier leader no matter how bad they stink! just to prove they arnt like the ALP. Now that is the peak of pathetic Australian Pollitics. Well I hope it is the peak anyway.


The peak, or depths?


----------



## manticle (6/8/15)

Pits


----------



## spog (6/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Break out the champers and pop tarts. My vote for a total cleanout, vote in a batch of independents, and make 'em work things out for the betterment of the community, not the f**king economy.


Must be a good 20+ years ago ( if my memory is correct )there was a report on TV about a pollie who drove his OWN car to parly house,when asked why he replied that the goverment supplied car and driver was a waste of money,he was treated like a leper because of it.
I don't remember who he is/ was or which party he represented but he had a conscious,prolly been thrown on the scrap since for giving a stuff .


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> And thier wives hate her even more. Why? something about women with more power something?


envy, fear, & jealousy. They think "I could never have amounted to much more than I have because I lack the courage, self determination, or strength to be anything but deferential to the men in my life." Or something along those lines.


----------



## seamad (6/8/15)

spog said:


> Must be a good 20+ years ago ( if my memory is correct )there was a report on TV about a pollie who drove his OWN car to parly house,when asked why he replied that the goverment supplied car and driver was a waste of money,he was treated like a leper because of it.
> I don't remember who he is/ was or which party he represented but he had a conscious,prolly been thrown on the scrap since for giving a stuff .


Clive uses his own cars/jets/helicopters and doesn't claim expenses and apparently donates his wage to charity, but I'd hate to see a parliament full of clives ( probably unlikely as he rarely turns up anyway )


----------



## madpierre06 (8/8/15)

https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/29215661/spending-saga-continues/

These grubs are simply nothing better than scourges on the public purse, that arsehole Hockey was right...we need to get better jobs...THEIRS!!! And they have the hide to continue telling everybody else to tighten our belts....I know where I would like my belt to be when I tighten it...'round a few of their bloody necks.


----------



## manticle (8/8/15)

To be honest, and as little regard for politicians as I have notwithstanding, that news story is about as sensationalist as they come. Next to politicians, real estate agents and parking inspectors we have a large number of journalists floating on top of a big, stinky pond.


----------



## butisitart (8/8/15)

i bet clive claims his cars/jets on tax. he too fat and egoblown to be THAT altruistic.
if i were in politics, i'd give everybody on this forum a comcar to pick up your kids from school to the airport so they could fly off to wherever you have to go for work, so the family stays intact. business class, of course. fifo's, guys who get sent from melbourne to brisbane for 2 days a week... vote me in. :lol:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/8/15)

Donald Trump for President of the USA


----------



## Dave70 (10/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Donald Trump for President of the USA


I hear Cain Valasques wants a meeting with Don. Something to do with his views on Mexican immigration.


----------



## JDW81 (10/8/15)

Bronny's replacement has been named. Victorian Liberal MP Tony Smith. He's already stated he won't be attending liberal party room meetings.


----------



## yankinoz (10/8/15)

Just think, if Australia had the US system, direct election of a president, y'all would have Clive Palmer, Pauline Hanson, Jacquie Lambie, Bob Katter and Peter Slipper all out on the stump, and Kevin Rudd and Bronwyn planning comebacks.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (10/8/15)

It would be interesting to know just how many snouts are in the trough regarding ALL claims, I agree with Barnaby Joyce if all the names were named we would be left with hardly any Government or opposition. But it doesn't stop there what about all the civil servants with their own deals, Michael Lawler for one on $10,000 a week salary with unlimited sick pay and abused it by taking 9 months sick leave to cohort with his partner Kathy Jackson over the misappropriation of $1.4 million of union funds (the fleecing of the sheep) just with him alone 9 months wages is $360,000 sick pay, more than a lot of people earn.

Looking forward to the comments from the Labour Party on the Productivity Commission into Workplace Relations regarding changes to penalty rates, especially after little Bill Shorten told the Royal Commission that he negotiated the Cleanevent wages below award and without penalty rates just to keep people employed.


----------



## Weizguy (10/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> They are though unfortunately. The difference is ALP are more Honest with judgement. The LNP will stand by thier leader no matter how bad they stink! just to prove they arnt like the ALP. Now that is the peak of pathetic Australian Pollitics. Well I hope it is the peak anyway.


Surely you mean apathetic?


----------



## Dave70 (10/8/15)

yankinoz said:


> Just think, if Australia had the US system, direct election of a president, y'all would have Clive Palmer, Pauline Hanson, Jacquie Lambie, Bob Katter and Peter Slipper all out on the stump, and Kevin Rudd and Bronwyn planning comebacks.


Palmers pretty much the only one on that list who fits the US model as he could buy his way into the office on his own dime. Suppose Rudd could hit Thérèse up for some pocket money though. 
On the other hand we could elect actors. Russel Crowe could be our Ronald Reagan. 
Only thing to be wary of is nepotism creeping in. I'm all for giving your kids a leg up in life, just not when your kid is GWB.


----------



## Bridges (10/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Only thing to be wary of is nepotism creeping in. I'm all for giving your kids a leg up in life, just not when your kid is GWB.


What like your daughter getting a free degree from an expensive design school? Or your other daughter getting a plum job with DFAT? Nothing to see here...


----------



## seamad (10/8/15)

back when a PM had a spine:

During the Whitlam years the government cut costs by getting MPs to travel economy which provoked outrage in Cabinet.
Gough Whitlam famously rounded on his ministers: “I fly economy and I am a great man and I could fly economy for the rest of my life and I’d still be a great man.
“But most of the people around this table are pissants, and they could fly first class for the rest of their lives and they’d still be pissants.”


----------



## warra48 (10/8/15)

spog said:


> Must be a good 20+ years ago ( if my memory is correct )there was a report on TV about a pollie who drove his OWN car to parly house,when asked why he replied that the goverment supplied car and driver was a waste of money,he was treated like a leper because of it.
> I don't remember who he is/ was or which party he represented but he had a conscious,prolly been thrown on the scrap since for giving a stuff .


Is this the one you were thinking of?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Mack_(politician)


----------



## spog (10/8/15)

warra48 said:


> Is this the one you were thinking of?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Mack_(politician)


I reckon that's him,a pollie who gave a stuff...I think they're refered to as Dinosaurs these days .


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> .
> On the other hand we could elect actors. Russel Crowe could be our Ronald Reagan.
> Only thing to be wary of is nepotism creeping in. I'm all for giving your kids a leg up in life, just not when your kid is GWB.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (11/8/15)

^ and both of them are citizens of a country other than Australia.


----------



## Dave70 (11/8/15)

I actually had the more sensitive Russ in mind.
Would kill two birds with one stone right there. And anger all the right people.


----------



## Coalminer (11/8/15)

spog said:


> I reckon that's him,a pollie who gave a stuff...I think they're refered to as Dinosaurs these days .


And was succeeded by Joe Hockey - go figure.


----------



## madpierre06 (11/8/15)

Thing that made me sick was that caring fella Pyne going on in parliament yesterday how poor old Bronnie was unfairly forced out by petty politics (paraphrased). If he was taking the piss, even that was poor. If not...therein lies the problem.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> I actually had the more sensitive Russ in mind.
> Would kill two birds with one stone right there. And anger all the right people.


I would like to see a more sensitive Tony Abbott


----------



## goomboogo (11/8/15)

A re-make is on the cards. A love affair between Abbott and Pyne would truly be a force of nature.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/15)

I would so be up for that


----------



## Danscraftbeer (11/8/15)

Truly disturbing this tread and totally farkin funny. :lol:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/15)




----------



## Dave70 (12/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I would like to see a more sensitive Tony Abbott


Unlikely. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-19/same-sex-marriage-bill-voted-down/4270016

We're burning so much fuel on this ridiculous debate its a disgrace. And an embarrassment. 


But still, I had to chuckle..

Same-sex marriage campaigners have described today's result as a *"slap in the face"* to gay and lesbian Australians who want to marry their partner.

Ohh...you_ bitch!!.._


----------



## Liam_snorkel (12/8/15)

personally I'm stoked. Not that marriage equality has been delayed, but that the PM has cemented his leadership in the past. There are a lot of disgruntled Liberal voters. Hopefully (maybe a faint hope) after he's booted out the parliament can get on with more productive, progressive, and less sloganistic polity.


----------



## RobW (12/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> personally I'm stoked. Not that marriage equality has been delayed, but that the PM has cemented his leadership in the past. There are a lot of disgruntled Liberal voters. Hopefully (maybe a faint hope) after he's booted out the parliament can get on with more productive, progressive, and less sloganistic polity.


You'd think he's running out of time when he needs to rely on the conservative rump and the Nats to shore him up.
Hopefully it'll be before he completely trashes the country and our international reputation.


----------



## Bridges (12/8/15)




----------



## Dave70 (12/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> personally I'm stoked. Not that marriage equality has been delayed, but that the PM has cemented his leadership in the past. There are a lot of disgruntled Liberal voters. Hopefully (maybe a faint hope) after he's booted out the parliament can get on with more productive, progressive, and less sloganistic polity.


In my heart I knew they would also be _social_ concervatives.
Should have read the fine print.


----------



## Mardoo (12/8/15)

seamad said:


> back when a PM had a spine:
> 
> During the Whitlam years the government cut costs by getting MPs to travel economy which provoked outrage in Cabinet.
> Gough Whitlam famously rounded on his ministers: “I fly economy and I am a great man and I could fly economy for the rest of my life and I’d still be a great man.
> “But most of the people around this table are pissants, and they could fly first class for the rest of their lives and they’d still be pissants.”


Absolute gold!!!!


----------



## Brew Forky (12/8/15)

Maybe Bernadi wasn't too far off the mark. A story from the Daily News:
British woman marries her dog, confesses: ‘I’m totally her b---h’



> She said the ceremony, which ended with a kiss, was the perfect way to mark what Sheba means to her.


----------



## goomboogo (12/8/15)

Why is Batman slapping Robin?


----------



## Bridges (12/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Same-sex marriage campaigners have described today's result as a *"slap in the face"* to gay and lesbian _*superheroes*_ who want to marry their partner.
> 
> Ohh...you_ bitch!!.._


----------



## Dave70 (12/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Why is Batman slapping Robin?


Cos he's annoying as ****.


----------



## SBOB (12/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Hopefully (maybe a faint hope) after he's booted out the parliament can get on with more productive, progressive, and less sloganistic polity.


I'm hopeful that at some time in the not to distant future we will get to a point where we select our national leader by voting 'IN' a leader rather than continually voting 'OUT' the one doing a poor job


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/15)

whoa there, turbo!


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## goomboogo (12/8/15)

SBOB, I'm an optimistic person but I'm not that optimistic.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/15)

Yeah..goto agree

We needs more candidates like Clive Palmer and Donald Trump


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## Mardoo (12/8/15)

The Comedian's Union fully agrees.


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## SBOB (12/8/15)

I said i was hopeful... Can't a home brewer dream


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## goomboogo (12/8/15)

I'll join you and together we can dream of a better day. Beer will aid my imagination.


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## Dave70 (12/8/15)

What have we got, maby half a dozen major parties that qualify? Why cant they just pull a name out of a hat?
Think about it. Not only would it spare people the imposition of -_pfft_ - 'voting', they could sit in front of the telly and bet on the result. 

Of course, a hat is a stupid idea. 
You'd certainly want a set up like the lotto draw, with the tumbler and pneumatic ball elevator, perspex tubing and so on. 
You could get Larry Emdur or a visiting Hollywood A lister to emcee.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> What have we got, maby half a dozen major parties that qualify? Why cant they just pull a name out of a hat?
> Think about it. Not only would it spare people the imposition of -_pfft_ - 'voting', they could sit in front of the telly and bet on the result.
> 
> Of course, a hat is a stupid idea.
> ...


At least with our current lot you would only need 1 ball

I think Paris Hilton would be the perfect MC


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## Vini2ton (12/8/15)

That new speaker chap has a "Hugh Laurieish" look about him. Maybe his "Cranky Aussie Tory cousin" what?


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/15)

He hasn't pissed me off yet. The fact he wasn't Tone's choice, has 'friends on the other side', and is doing the right thing but not attending party meeting are all working in his (and the parliament's) favour IMO.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/15)

Do you really believe he doeasnt " attend" party meeting.

I will bet he gets well and truly briefed


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/15)

Of course he gets briefed, like everyone in Canberra.


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## spog (12/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> At least with our current lot you would only need 1 ball
> 
> I think Paris Hilton would be the perfect MC


Maybe she could suck the ball out ?


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/8/15)

You could be onto something there Spog


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## spog (13/8/15)

Damn right I am.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

I will put my hand up for voting in Tony Abbot and yes he has fucked up, can't believe the Bishop scandal went on for over 2 weeks, and all the tit for tat which has followed, as for gay marriage, not being a religious person I don't feel I could make a call on that, though I can't see why any gays would want to marry in a religious ceremony when most religions oppose relationships between the same gender.
The Government has to get stuck into the more important issues which our nation is facing.


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## Bridges (16/8/15)

Yeah there is this thing you may not be up with called a civil ceremony, it is in the eyes of the law a marriage, same as if it happened in a church. Gay marriage is to give same sex couples the same legal rights as couples, it also stops the inference that people are some how inferior or second class as they are section of society is barred from participating in something. I do agree with some of what you have said above however WEAL, yes Tony Abbott has fucked up, he seems to find new ways to look like a dick at almost every turn. Also that the government needs to actually get to work on the big issues, getting bogged down in gay marriage is a joke and makes us look like a nation of backwards bigots.

I don't see how people can sit back and say if you gay you can't marry, when if you changed out the word gay for any other minority people would be outraged.


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## JDW81 (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The Government has to get stuck into the more important issues which our nation is facing.


That is never going to happen. Tony is too busy chasing polls, defending his captains picks and sticking up for Royal Commissioners who are blatantly partisan. Now watch him cut taxes and throw money around like a drunken sailor in an attempt to save his own bacon and get re-elected.

They couldn't give a shit about the common man, all they care about is their own career and keeping their "entitlements" so they can live in a style to which they have become accustomed.


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## booargy (16/8/15)

I vote liberal and I also go to a place to get my balls stomped on once a week.


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## Liam_snorkel (16/8/15)

WEAL- Marriage is definitely not a religious ceremony. Mine certainly wasn't, I was married by a civil celebrant.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

Liam I didn't realize it until Bridges mentioned it, I thought it was strange wanting to get married, mistakenly thinking in the eyes of God after they had been persecuted for hundreds of years by religious zealots.
As for the Royal Commission into Union Corruption JDW81 whoever would have been chosen would have some political belief, the four who have been arrested so far were arrested by police over testimony given, not because of anything Dyson Heydon instructed. Even if they replaced him who's to say that the next commissioner would be biased, which by the way has not been proven against DH.
I don't contribute to any union but if I did I would be bloody angry, using their position to blackmail and intimidate business owners for their own gain, as well as misappropriating union funds.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

The Royal Commission into Trade Unions is a blatant political witch hunt. Everyone knows that

In fact, the original terms of reference had to be changed so that it wasnt a royal commission into the Labor Party.

Abbott has a vendetta and thats why he started it. All about trying to destroy the Labor Party.

But it looks like all he has done is to bring his own ambitions and his party crashing down. 

Once it got out that Dyson accepted that invite to give a speech the whole thing is basically shown its true colours. No one is now going to take it seriously and the people are going to ask why they spent $80m on a vendictive campaign.

Stick with the LNP weal. You the only only left who loves them B)


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## spog (16/8/15)

Weal,you mentioned in the eyes of God.
All this marriage equality crap is , well its crap. After all are we all not equal in the eyes of God ? if any one is religious that about covers it.
Also I heard on the radio on Friday that a group ofAboriginal elders delivered a hand written protest to the Gov on same sex marriage, curiously I have heard no more as this is a hot topic maybe their voice will not be heard or its not worthy .
+1 on your comment about Unions as far as I'm concerned they can get a dog up em.

And checking...checking,yep that about covers it. I feel better now.


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## booargy (16/8/15)

What I found interesting is that someone asks for a bribe and the person pays it but only one is arrested. So if a copper asks for a bribe and I pay it only the copper can be arrested?


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## SBOB (16/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> WEAL- Marriage is definitely not a religious ceremony. Mine certainly wasn't, I was married by a civil celebrant.


Likewise, and a large number of marriages in this country are not religious based (I would say majority but can't be bothered backing that up with actual facts) . 

The fact that a referendum/plebiscite is proposed as the best way to determine whether a minority group should be given equal rights is down right crazy to me.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

Well it was a labour Prime Minister who set up the AWU slush fund before she was Prime Minister into which hundreds of thousands of dollars has gone through, none of the ordinary members has received any of that money it has been shared out with the men at the top.
As for the Royal Commission into the Labour Party DBS lets not forget it was the unions who actually formed the labour party, are you happy then stu with the way the trade unionist at the top are receiving bribes and misappropriating union funds, stealing off their own members Kate Jackson $1.3 million, Craig Thompson $28,000 for prostitutes the union movement is not above the law and should face the consequences.


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## Bridges (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Kate Jackson $1.3 million, Craig Thompson $28,000 for prostitutes the union movement is not above the law and should face the consequences.


But why do we need to waste money on a royal commission. Illegal activity should be pretty well covered by current laws why not just use those to prosecute the guilty.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Well it was a labour Prime Minister who set up the AWU slush fund before she was Prime Minister into which hundreds of thousands of dollars has gone through, none of the ordinary members has received any of that money it has been shared out with the men at the top.
> As for the Royal Commission into the Labour Party DBS lets not forget it was the unions who actually formed the labour party, are you happy then stu with the way the trade unionist at the top are receiving bribes and misappropriating union funds, stealing off their own members Kate Jackson $1.3 million, Craig Thompson $28,000 for prostitutes the union movement is not above the law and should face the consequences.


WEAL...Even your beloved liberal party is not immune to corruption....

Apart from that I really dont give a **** what you think of the Unions or the Labor Party. 

Your an LNP fanboy, so stick with, they need all the help and support they can get right now B)


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## JDW81 (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As for the Royal Commission into Union Corruption JDW81 whoever would have been chosen would have some political belief, the four who have been arrested so far were arrested by police over testimony given, not because of anything Dyson Heydon instructed. Even if they replaced him who's to say that the next commissioner would be biased, which by the way has not been proven against DH.


I was referring to the fact he had agreed to be the key-note speaker at a liberal party fundraiser, while holding the position of Royal Commissioner, highlighting his partisanship. I agree that anyone appointed would be viewed in a political light, however agreeing to speak at a party fundraiser mid-commission throws into doubt his ability to remain impartial.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

My politics are far more aligned with yours than they are with WEAL's Stu but please keep it civil.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Some light reading 

http://thesauce.co/achievements-of-the-abbott-government/


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## seamad (16/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Some light reading
> 
> http://thesauce.co/achievements-of-the-abbott-government/


You can condense this government down to one word ( borrowed from the thick of it ) :
omnishambolic

edit link


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

What would you call the previous Government seamad, double omnishambolic :lol:


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

At least the last government had a heart..

Something sadly lacking with the current bunch of cold heartless pricks. They prefer authoritarian rule and keeping secrets.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

I'm scratching my head to think of why either governmental incarnation is preferable or should be given a pat on the back. The current one is performing dreadfully, regardless of which side of the political divide you sit (as paltry as that actually is).

I'm not a social conservative by any stretch of the imagination, but if I were I would be severely disappointed.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

@dbs - last government's policies on asylum seekers were pretty damn dreadful too. 

Unfortunately both sides seem to have crept further and further to the right in recent times.

The marriage equality issue was in their power to change but they lacked the balls.

Cold heartless pricks? Maybe not but ineffectual due to lack of guts? Definitely. Rudd started strong then faded to nothing, their squabbling did them in. I don't think abbot/brandis etc would have stood a chance if last Labor had been competent. **** off Shorten, get plibersek in, stop dismissing the greens as Loonies when much of their platform and attitude aligns with old Labor and then we might see a goverment with their head at the opposite end to their arse.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

So it doesn't matter what shambles a government gets into as long as they have a heart they will get your vote stu,what do you mean by having a heart, looking after all those who wouldn't work in a barrel of yeast, and giving them every social hand out possible and a raise in dole money to above award wages. Is that what you want from a government?


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## warra48 (16/8/15)

I'm enjoying a lovely hefeweizen. Politics is far from my mind. Next up will be an AIPA, and politics will be even further from my mind.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> So it doesn't matter what shambles a government gets into as long as they have a heart they will get your vote stu,what do you mean by having a heart, looking after all those who wouldn't work in a barrel of yeast, and giving them every social hand out possible and a raise in dole money to above award wages. Is that what you want from a government?


Dole at above award? On what planet does this happen?

I guess it's easy to pick on welfare recipients. More popular than kicking kittens at least.


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## SBOB (16/8/15)

you know politics in the country is going well when its 'the party I support is doing a slightly less shit job than yours did' as the underlying argument


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## manticle (16/8/15)

That's as good as it gets.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

If I was on the 'Old King Cole' I would be voting Labour


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If I was on the 'Old King Cole' I would be voting Labour


But your a "self made man" so that is something you would never consider...correct ?


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## manticle (16/8/15)

And if you were a business owner rorting the system to fill your coffers with as much lucre as you could? Which way might you vote then?


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## Lemon (16/8/15)

It is with great pride that I see that real political discussion is not lost, in this country, to apathy. See 12 pages above.
IMHO, what is lacking in both parties is a VISION. Not a holy, it came to me in the night. A set of values that underpin policy direction.

The labor party set up by the unions for the benefit of the population had it. The current incarnation don't. It is probably because they have achieved more than there wildest dreams, those of old labor I mean. The circumstances that led to this organisation are gone and it is not surprising that those in it now are fumbling in the dark.

Unions actually represent less than 20% of workers, that they run a political party that purports to represent them all , workers that is, is no wonder there are ructions e.g. Rudd, Gillard, faceless men etc. one term govts.

If a drovers dog ran for office on a set of values commensurate with modern Australia, and a direction to make it a better country. He'd get 90% of the vote.

That said, when I reflect on the representative parties being set up in a different age, how does the institution of the parliamentary system barely changed in over a century stand up to suit the world we now live in? Not too well.

An Irish friend of mine says, "in my family, if you didn't discuss religion or politics, you didn't talk"

Keep it friendly, but keep it going.

Lemon


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

manticle said:


> Dole at above award? On what planet does this happen?
> 
> I guess it's easy to pick on welfare recipients. More popular than kicking kittens at least.


As I said manticle there are those among us who will not work, those are the ones I was aiming at if you read it again.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

Which is about 2% of all welfare recipients and less than 0.000000016% of the tax you pay so why is it such a massive issue?


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

manticle said:


> And if you were a business owner rorting the system to fill your coffers with as much lucre as you could? Which way might you vote then?


Difficult to rort the system as a business owner, one would face the the wrath of the ATO, though they have difficulty finding the front door of a business never mind any discrepancies in the books, and if you can get away with a little bit of black money thats called a perk, not a rort and if you was getting away with plenty it wouldn't matter who you voted for if you get caught it is a jail term no matter which party is in power.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

But super easy to get rich on welfare?


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## manticle (16/8/15)

Black money = perk?
ATO will get you even though they're useless?
Business owners never cheat the system nor rip off their employees?

Whatever you're drinking at the moment must be great.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Difficult to rort the system as a business owner, one would face the the wrath of the ATO, though they have difficulty finding the front door of a business never mind any discrepancies in the books, and if you can get away with a little bit of black money thats called a perk, not a rort and if you was getting away with plenty it wouldn't matter who you voted for if you get caught it is a jail term no matter which party is in power.


You must be a very poor business owner....or very honest...

Its very easy to rort the system if you know how...

Look at the multinationals who pay NO tax. Guess which side of politics they lie with...

Sort of makes the amount the unions have rorted pale into insignificance doesnt it


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

Not really what the multinationals do is legal what the hierarchy of the unions are doing is extortion and misappropriating union members funds for their own gain.
Any business owner can take a chance and try to illegally obtain an advantage but if you get caught it just isn't worth it, someone I knew tried it didn't declare $4,000,000, ATO investigated went to court and he got 7 years minimum, his wife divorced him and as soon as the divorce came through she was told by the ATO to sell the house and give them his half.
Better off to run a business legitimately in the ATO's eyes pay as little tax as legally possible and keep your nose clean.


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## JDW81 (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Difficult to rort the system as a business owner


Not really, it's actually quite easy to rort the system and get away with it, even for small businesses. I worked for a short time at a bar in Williamstown who refused to pay the hospitality award as well as penalty rates on weekends/public holidays. They even emailed me saying that they didn't pay the award cause it costs too much and justified it by saying everyone else does it.

I forwarded my correspondence to the fair work commission who told me they couldn't do anything based on an email trail from the employer, so I forwarded my payslips to them. I haven't heard back, the bar is still in business and paying below the award wage. I no longer work for them, the bar is still shit and they wonder why they don't get decent employees.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Not really what the multinationals do is legal what the hierarchy of the unions are doing is extortion and misappropriating union members funds for their own gain.
> Any business owner can take a chance and try to illegally obtain an advantage but if you get caught it just isn't worth it, someone I knew tried it didn't declare $4,000,000, ATO investigated went to court and he got 7 years minimum, his wife divorced him and as soon as the divorce came through she was told by the ATO to sell the house and give them his half.
> Better off to run a business legitimately in the ATO's eyes pay as little tax as legally possible and keep your nose clean.


You seem to tar ALL unions and ALL union officials with the same brush....Yes there are some bad apples, but there not ALL bad apples as you want to make us believe

Remember what happened to the NSW Liberals a little while back...



JDW81 said:


> Not really, it's actually quite easy to rort the system and get away with it, even for small businesses. I worked for a short time at a bar in Williamstown who refused to pay the hospitality award as well as penalty rates on weekends/public holidays. They even emailed me saying that they didn't pay the award cause it costs too much and justified it by saying everyone else does it.
> 
> I forwarded my correspondence to the fair work commission who told me they couldn't do anything based on an email trail from the employer, so I forwarded my payslips to them. I haven't heard back, the bar is still in business and paying below the award wage. I no longer work for them, the bar is still shit and they wonder why they don't get decent employees.



I ask this WEAL...If there wasnt a union to help workers in situations like this, who would fund the battle to fight for there wages and advocate for the workers

Or do you believe that employers pay whatever they like and screw the workers


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> raise in dole money to above award wages. Is that what you want from a government?


And where did you get that from...?


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## manticle (16/8/15)

Same planet as where all the honest businesses live, sifting through their perks.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

manticle said:


> Same planet as where all the honest businesses live, sifting through their perks.


And paying there fair share of Tax's in the country the where earnt in


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## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

As I said before it isn't easy to rort a system it would be stupid to try and think it will not catch up with you, when the tax office did that sting a few years ago on the eBay businesses and caught over 800 people receiving benefits and making a good living on eBay. As in your case JD the bar owner has questions to answer and in the Fair work Australia system a lot of those who hear the complaints are ex union officials, given jobs by Rudd and Gillard. If you read some of the cases which are heard at FWA you will see that there is a lot of bias in the judgments I was reading of one case where not once but 3 times a convenience store had tried to sack an employee for stealing but had not been successful in doing so. Another point to remember is Bill Shortens statement to the Royal Commission about Cleanevent, 'It is better to negotiate a below award wages and no penalty rates to keep more people employed'. So that would put you behind the eight ball.

If you are happy to pay union dues stu then that is up to you, I would much sooner be judged on my merit and negotiate my own wages, believe me if you are conscientious and good at what you do then the employer will reward and look after you, if you do the wrong thing then I believe the employer has the right to sack you. And I am not saying all unions are bad just the few who keep cropping up in the corruption charges.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> . Another point to remember is Bill Shortens statement to the Royal Commission about Cleanevent, 'It is better to negotiate a below award wages and no penalty rates to keep more people employed'. So that would put you behind the eight ball.
> 
> If you are happy to pay union dues stu then that is up to you, I would much sooner be judged on my merit and negotiate my own wages, believe me if you are conscientious and good at what you do then the employer will reward and look after you, if you do the wrong thing then I believe the employer has the right to sack you. And I am not saying all unions are bad just the few who keep cropping up in the corruption charges.


Umm...that is not the case with all employers... many employers really dont give a shit about Joe Average, they are just a number in a book. My experience hast told me that the bigger the employer, the less of a shit they give. They work on the principle that there are plenty of other fish who will do the same work for less.

As for Bill negotiating a " below award wage "...would you prefer them to be on the dole or at least have work and pay some tax...


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## manticle (16/8/15)

Well the dole is above award* now so.....










*Special award for [email protected] <$1.70 p/h


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## Lemon (16/8/15)

What possible reason is there for fighting for a minimum wage only to negotiate an agreement that pays less than that?


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## Black Devil Dog (16/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> As for Bill negotiating a " below award wage "...would you prefer them to be on the dole or at least have work and pay some tax...


What the ****?

Can't really believe some of the rubbish here, but this is the most nonsensical comment of all.

You're arguing in favour of something that you've spent countless hours arguing against.

There's no genuine concern for the underprivileged within the union movement, and that also applies, to a lesser extent, to the Labour and Liberal parties.

The major parties want to win the next election, the Unions generally flex their muscles and threaten strikes to try and keep themselves relevant. While they strike the 'workers' go unpaid.

All this misguided anger toward the Royal Commission, might be better directed toward the unions who are meant to be helping those who genuinely need it, rather than fleecing the members (workers).


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Lemon said:


> What possible reason is there for fighting for a minimum wage only to negotiate an agreement that pays less than that?


You are mistaking Award wage for Minimum wage.


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## madpierre06 (16/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Some light reading
> 
> http://thesauce.co/achievements-of-the-abbott-government/



And this for me is almost totally defeating, I had to stop reading it before I went and slit my wrists...here is evidence of a political party using the reins of govt. to completely gut any and all porgrams which actually are of real benefit to this country and the people in it, particularly those who are more marginalised than a lot of others. The majority of their implemented decisions are designed to benefit the really BIG money players, at the expense of this country and programs which protect OUR interests and what we have left of a way of life. There is real bloodd on therir hands, particularly in the Sri Lankan situation, and their allowing of the big banks who have exploited and driven off land owners. To these slimy grubs, we way down here are nothing more than trub to be discarded when used up.

At least Labour make a semi pretence of caring, and I do believe that their are those among them who do have some principles of human compassion, and I see in someone like Albanese who actually seems a solid semi-principled bloke.....the scum in the other benches don't even show an ounce of humanity, just look at the eyes...dead and soulless.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> What the ****?
> 
> Can't really believe some of the rubbish here, but this is the most nonsensical comment of all.
> 
> ...


The Unions have negotiated many times for a wage reduction to keep a business afloat and keep everyone employed.

Is that a bad thing...?

Do we just let the workers loose their jobs completely and live on the dole...

The Unions role is not always to get the highest wage possible, sometimes they have to fight and negotiate to keep the workers employed.


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## Lemon (16/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You are mistaking Award wage for Minimum wage.


You are correct, 

But the question stands, do we need the awards if those who protect conditions deem that in order to employ more people we should do away with them?


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

In some cases, yes. But not to employ more people, but to keep those there employed

Removing the award to employ more people is not what its about


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## Lemon (16/8/15)

Stu,
I agree the unions, have negotiated reduced agreements in an attempt to keep businesses afloat and people employed, but the examples, well one, I can think of is shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. E.g. Holden in Elizabeth.
The experience I have seen is the eyes open deliberate defiance of businesses trying to negotiate a true win win deal, to drive through a blind increase in wages that has resulted in redundancies and misery down the track.

I don't see a way forward with the current system.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Say an employer was having a downturn in their business and it becomes a financial problem that they cant trade and afford the wages,.

What would you do if the job market was extremely tight and you where staring down the barrel of unemployment with **** all work available, what would you do...take a pay cut ( which can also mean less hrs at the same rate of pay ) or go on the dole for an extended period of time ?


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Lemon said:


> Stu,
> I agree the unions, have negotiated reduced agreements in an attempt to keep businesses afloat and people employed, but the examples, well one, I can think of is shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. E.g. Holden in Elizabeth.
> The experience I have seen is the eyes open deliberate defiance of businesses trying to negotiate a true win win deal, to drive through a blind increase in wages that has resulted in redundancies and misery down the track.
> 
> I don't see a way forward with the current system.


Bring back Workchoices then.


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## manticle (16/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> What the ****?
> 
> Can't really believe some of the rubbish here, but this is the most nonsensical comment of all.
> 
> ...


This is unfortunately quite true.


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## JDW81 (16/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Australia system a lot of those who hear the complaints are ex union officials, given jobs by Rudd and Gillard. If you read some of the cases which are heard at FWA you will see that there is a lot of bias in the judgments


Just like Dyson Hayden being appointed as head of the Royal Commission.

Let's not pretend that the unions are the only one's who appoint people to positions to arbitrate on behalf of others.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Indeed.


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## Lemon (16/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Say an employer was having a downturn in their business and it becomes a financial problem that they cant trade and afford the wages,.
> 
> What would you do if the job market was extremely tight and you where staring down the barrel of unemployment with **** all work available, what would you do...take a pay cut ( which can also mean less hrs at the same rate of pay ) or go on the dole for an extended period of time ?


I agree, this is a desirable situation, the former, not the latter, but I have never seen it work.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Unfortunately its not something that gets much attention, if any


----------



## Black Devil Dog (16/8/15)

The latest union action.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Well if they have legitamite concerns, why cant they


----------



## Black Devil Dog (16/8/15)

Yeah.

'We want this and if you don't give it to us we'll make every ones life shit.'

Good strategy.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Some more light reading

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0


----------



## Black Devil Dog (16/8/15)

Under the watch of a Democrat Government.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Scary isnt it ....


----------



## manticle (16/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Yeah.
> 
> 'We want this and if you don't give it to us we'll make every ones life shit.'
> 
> Good strategy.


The point of a strike, whether or not you agree with the issue, is surely to disrupt things.

I don't get this idea that somehow protest/dissent shouldn't create any ripples.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (16/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> Just like Dyson Hayden being appointed as head of the Royal Commission.
> 
> Let's not pretend that the unions are the only one's who appoint people to positions to arbitrate on behalf of others.


I don't pretend anything, I have already had a rant in this thread about Michael Lawler who was appointed by Abbot and is or was the Fair Work Commission vice president on $500,000 / year salary with unlimited sick pay, thenhe took 9 months sick leave, I believe he is on his way down the ladder now because of the sick pay and probably for his association with Kathy Jackson.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/8/15)

Now there is some irony for you...Abbott appointing a person to a high ranking position that is associated with a union fraudster...


----------



## Tropico (16/8/15)

Bronwyn is not done yet.

With her cronies within the Liberal Party, and her friends that finance them, she will obviously try to overthrow Tony for PM


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

Scott Morrison is looking as a likely replacement..... SHUDDERS.....


----------



## Dave70 (17/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Some more light reading
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0


You go to work e commerce company run by a man who is likely a highly functional psychopath and this comes as a surprise?

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/txQvwojjjHRMY4y0Y7V9xK/Is-the-capacity-for-empathy-a-weakness-in-a-CEO.html


----------



## wide eyed and legless (17/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Now there is some irony for you...Abbott appointing a person to a high ranking position that is associated with a union fraudster...


Another bit of irony, the trade unions have told bill to scuttle the China FTA because they don't like the 457 visa being in the agreement yet the unions bring employees on the 457's so how much do the unions care about the Australian workforce.

I once read a quote from a former employee of Jeff Bezos, he said, 'I know he liked me cos he let me live.'


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

I think you will find that the FTA allows the Chinese to bring in an entire wokforce,( that dont need the same level of skill or qualifiations as local workers ) not just a few workers


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/8/15)

yeah I thought the unions beef with the FTA was that they can bring in tradespeople without the equivalent qualifications / licenses as would be required of Aussie workers.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (17/8/15)

No your wrong, the Chinese FTA is worded the same as all the other FTA's which the Labour party has approved, funnily enough it all ties in with your original topic about Bronwyn Bishop, I think that the Bishop saga was a smoke screen, funny how it came to light at the same time as the labour party conference when Bill Shorten made a pact with the union to back him on the boat people and he would back them on the Chinese FTA. Plus the Emissions Trading Scheme was behind the smoke screen also, Abbott fucked up because he didn't sack Bishop straight away.

No Liam it isn't any different under the Chinese FTA to the procedure with the 457 visa now, they must have the skills and language in English plus all avenues to find employees must be exhausted.
We now live in a global economy (as we have found out with Greece) and also a global market, since New Zealand signed their China FTA their exports to China have risen from $2 billion to $8 billion. We cant make Australia a fortress from the rest of the world which is what a couple of the unions want.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/8/15)

meh, I haven't really looked into it, all I said was that I _thought_ that's what their beef was, unfounded or not. Robb has assurance from China that their trade qualifications are equivalent, the ETU etc disagree.


----------



## pcmfisher (17/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The Unions have negotiated *many times *for a wage reduction to keep a business afloat and keep everyone employed.
> 
> Is that a bad thing...?
> 
> ...


Many times? Once, maybe twice since the creation of the universe.

I wonder what negotiations were done between the workers and GMH to keep the business afloat?

Oh that's right, they cut the amount of milk the tea lady was allowed to give out!


----------



## sponge (17/8/15)

I know of at least two large local companies who have taken pay cuts (negotiated through unions) to be able to compete with smaller man-in-a-van type companies and keep guys employed. Better to work for smaller margins than have no work at all..


----------



## pcmfisher (17/8/15)

manticle said:


> @dbs - last government's policies on asylum seekers were pretty damn dreadful too.
> 
> Unfortunately both sides seem to have crept further and further to the right in recent times.
> 
> ...


Yep mostly true.

Considering Bill Shorten was the reason behind a lot of the Labor's woes I cannot believe they would even consider having him as leader. After Labor was made virtually unvoteforable he should have been told to go and sit in the corner for a couple of years and hope people would forget the turmoil he caused. To me it shows they have not learned.

With a decent leader like Plibersek or even Albanese, Tony Abbott's crew will be a one term wonder if they don't watch out.

Also I don't see the point politically or otherwise to keep on trying to put off the inevitable of gay marriage.

Re - the Greens, they will stop being dismissed as loonies when they stop acting like loonies. They have no credibility.


----------



## Dave70 (17/8/15)

sponge said:


> I know of at least two large local companies who have taken pay cuts (negotiated through unions) to be able to compete with smaller man-in-a-van type companies and keep guys employed. *Better to work for smaller margins than have no work at all..*


Only problem with that will be once we're all paying 15% GST..


----------



## seamad (17/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> meh, I haven't really looked into it, all I said was that I _thought_ that's what their beef was, unfounded or not. Robb has assurance from China that their trade qualifications are equivalent, the ETU etc disagree.


This summarises the FTA, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-12/china-free-trade-agreement-cost-australian-jobs-fact-check/6653214


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Re - the Greens, they will stop being dismissed as loonies when they stop acting like loonies. They have no credibility.


c'mon, give us a few examples.


----------



## sponge (17/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Only problem with that will be once we're all paying 15% GST..


Fair deuce.. I was just pointing out that taking pay cuts to secure work definitely happens, and has happened a lot more than once since the creation of the universe.

Too much political talk for me for one week. Back to my rock I shall crawl.


----------



## Coalminer (17/8/15)

Tit-for-tat jobs for the boys?

"Dyson Heydon, the royal commissioner under mounting pressure to quit over his links to the Liberal Party, was on a panel that awarded a young Tony Abbott a life-changing scholarship to Oxford University."

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/3284131/dyson-heydon-was-on-panel-that-awarded-tony-abbott-his-prized-rhodes-scholarship/?cs=4219


----------



## wide eyed and legless (17/8/15)

Myths and facts China FTA

http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/chafta/fact-sheets/Pages/chafta-myths-versus-realities.aspx


----------



## Dave70 (17/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> c'mon, give us a few examples.


I'll give you three. Sarah Hansen Young.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJ7j86MyWw


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/8/15)

hehe, yeah. She had a valid but terribly expressed point.. then again, no more looney than Barnaby Joyce, Corey Bernardi, or dare I say Abbott himself.

All I can really do is cry myself to sleep hoping for some politicians that are worth voting _for_, rather than against.

Prophetic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc96KVsTKtY

and:

Keating, March 1994:
THE person replacing the former member for Warringah [Abbott] has nothing like the progressive social views or contact with the community that the former member had. He at least was able sensibly to relate to the kind of society we now have. As I said the other day, they are being replaced by fogies-a fogey being a person who is attached to old values and old norms that are now irrelevant. It is true to say that we are seeing a combination of old fogies and young fogies, but nevertheless 24-carat fogies. I know when I look at these poor dispirited people opposite - the remnants of Australia's failed upper class and management group, the born-to-rule squad who have been out now mournfully, wistfully, for 11 years going on 13 - that, when they see the likes of Bronwyn Bishop and Tony Abbott coming into their ranks, their hearts must sink.


----------



## manticle (17/8/15)

Love Howard's chimpanzee impersonation in that clip.


Re:Greens

Yes dumb, embarassing moment from hansen young. I hope she had enough balls to realise, admit and apologise for the error. Would be streets ahead of her contempoararies. Unfortunately she's a politician so I doubt it.

Stupid, yes, loony no. Corey bernardi - there's a potential psych ward inhabitant, HD unit only..


----------



## Vini2ton (17/8/15)

I love this thread. If this country's population had as much political conscience as the brewers on this site I'm fairly sure we may go back to the days when people actually gave a **** about what was happening around them. I declare my union and labor party membership with pride and ask all of you, what would this world be like if we'd never said enough is enough. People now take their wages and conditions for granted. Our forefathers fought the "good fight" for what we have and indeed suffered for their impudence to the ruling classes. Everyone who lives in this country owes those before us deep respect. Amen.


----------



## manticle (17/8/15)

Re: Hansen - pretty hilarious though.
'Are you talking about the fictional tv show "sea patrol?"

'Um, yes, the one with boats....oh never mind!'


----------



## real_beer (17/8/15)

I wish young people would stand up and look for a future leader from their ranks. My generation has totally fucked up the whole system beyond repair with the people we have available in office now! You can vote at 18, start making it count from today. I don't know who I'll vote for at the next election but I promise it's not going to be for any of the major parties, they've all gone mad, if they were a dog you'd put it down quickly. Australia needs a vision for the future that isn't going to come from these pricks so start seriously looking now!

Say 'I'M 18, I'M MAD AS HELL, I CAN VOTE, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!'

I hope you don't take it anymore cause your futures looking really fucked the way we're headed at the moment.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

Ahhh...Keating...

Now there was a politician and a half...

Produced some of the best one liners ever to come out of Parliament B)


----------



## manticle (17/8/15)

Didn't like him much at the time but now I think he was as close to a champ as anyone in parliament could be.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

Vini2ton said:


> I love this thread. If this country's population had as much political conscience as the brewers on this site I'm fairly sure we may go back to the days when people actually gave a **** about what was happening around them. I declare my union and labor party membership with pride and ask all of you, what would this world be like if we'd never said enough is enough. People now take their wages and conditions for granted. Our forefathers fought the "good fight" for what we have and indeed suffered for their impudence to the ruling classes. Everyone who lives in this country owes those before us deep respect. Amen.


And A LOT of people tend to forget that.


----------



## manticle (17/8/15)

Usually people who'd like to run a business and pay people the minimum possible for a 7 day week.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=38&v=r1Ivp-A413A


----------



## Black Devil Dog (17/8/15)

A lot of people who run businesses, put everything on the line when they back themselves to have a crack, rather than just be content to work for the man. 

Many of these people work for next to nothing in the early days, pumping everything back into the business just so that they can get it up and running. When these businesses grow they employ people.

I suspect that some people commenting here, think that business owners are rolling in green stuff while underpaying their employees.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (17/8/15)

_Wha? _There should be a politics thread otherwise it looks like Bronwyn gets 15 pages. -_-


----------



## goomboogo (17/8/15)

Many people continue to see the Liberal and Labor parties as politically dichotomous. This in no way reflects reality.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> A lot of people who run businesses, put everything on the line when they back themselves to have a crack, rather than just be content to work for the man.
> 
> Many of these people work for next to nothing in the early days, pumping everything back into the business just so that they can get it up and running. When these businesses grow they employ people.
> 
> I suspect that some people commenting here, think that business owners are rolling in green stuff while underpaying their employees.


True. So very true.

The family company I work for is just like that. Its there money and ass on the line at the end of the day.

BUT...they dont try to exploit us like some others I have worked for. They are very fair and tolerant.

I also know lots of people who work for small business owners who get fucked over royaly by the greedy owners


----------



## Black Devil Dog (17/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I also know lots of people who work for small business owners who get fucked over royaly by the greedy owners


I'm sure that happens a lot, it's happened to me. There are also employees who aren't worth what they get paid and there are also employees who rip of their employer.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/8/15)

It would be fairly ridiculous to to accuse a former Justice of the High Court of actual bias (which isn't happening here) - but this fiasco is getting fun, from a politics-as-sport point of view.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/dyson-heydon-was-on-panel-that-awarded-tony-abbott-his-prized-rhodes-scholarship-20150817-gj0o8o.html


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'm sure that happens a lot, it's happened to me. There are also employees who aren't worth what they get paid and there are also employees who rip of their employer.


This is also true. I know cause I have worked with some incredibly lazy people who would dodge work, complain about everything, always bullshitting about how hard the job was..etc..etc... Fuckers where not worth worth paying

And then when I was on the dole for a bit ( earning all of $500 F/N ) there where blokes who just wouldnt work and where basically unemployable, and I truly mean unemployable...rather sad really


----------



## dicko (17/8/15)

This topic is bigger than "Bronwyn Hair"....


----------



## manticle (17/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> A lot of people who run businesses, put everything on the line when they back themselves to have a crack, rather than just be content to work for the man.
> 
> Many of these people work for next to nothing in the early days, pumping everything back into the business just so that they can get it up and running. When these businesses grow they employ people.
> 
> I suspect that some people commenting here, think that business owners are rolling in green stuff while underpaying their employees.


Of course. It's easy to demonise either side and the reality is rarely the stereotype. There are some utterly arsehole employers and some lazy entitled employees that contribute to bad reputations. I've met/worked with/worked for both types.


----------



## Dave70 (18/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> hehe, yeah. She had a valid but terribly expressed point.. then again, no more looney than Barnaby Joyce, Corey Bernardi, or dare I say Abbott himself.
> 
> All I can really do is cry myself to sleep hoping for some politicians that are worth voting _for_, rather than against.
> 
> ...


_*cough*.._

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-reintroduces-knight-and-dame-honours-for-australians-20140325-35fzo.html


----------



## Liam_snorkel (18/8/15)

yep, hence why I said "prophetic" :unsure:


----------



## madpierre06 (18/8/15)

Discussing at one of my lectures yesterday, what it will take to turn this country around.

An alternate option to the current choices we have to vote for - providing the system allows him/her to get there in the first place, and to be honest I believe it is going to take someone who has no aspirations of public office, but someone who is able to come along into the public domain itself and lead.

A man/woman who has no personal interest in promoting themself, just a clear message and vision to and for the benefit of this country and her people

They must be of courage and compassion, integrity etc (all the finest personal qualities)

The must be prepared to wear the flak which will surely be stirred up against 'em by the entrenched snouts and their media conglomerate masters

I know a bloke who fits that description, but he's not around anymore.

Anyway, to quote the great Zeb Coulter - "We, the people!" :lol: Well, you know what I mean.


----------



## Dave70 (18/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Many people continue to see the Liberal and Labor parties as politically dichotomous. This in no way reflects reality.


Yep. The reality being we're mostly content to suckle at either an LIB or ALP teat and call it milk. And they know it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-01/wolff-culture-of-entitlement-a-damaging-mindframe/3706150


----------



## madpierre06 (18/8/15)

The people of this country ( a generalisation, yes I know) are as a whole too happy to be comfortable without thinking too hard about the truth of the situation this country finds itself in. Give 'em their iphones and ipads and a new flatscreen etc, swilled down with large doses of reality tv and the f**king Kardashians which turns the critical thinking parts of the brain to mush and you have a recipe for public ignorance...which is surely bliss.


----------



## real_beer (18/8/15)

Australia's hope for the future:

Young people like Jessica Watson showing what can be done chasing your dreams backed with true Queenslander courage to achieve them. A huge thanks must go to her New Zealand parents for realizing their daughter must be born in Qld .

http://www.jessicawatson.com.au/

This page makes good reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_inventions

The following has always irked me as an income earner opportunity missed for both Australia and its people:

If the various governments of the day had used one brain cell each they could have earned trillions of dollars just from all the breakthrough inventions the CSIRO has come out with over the years. But no they just gave the ideas away to the world without a second thought and concentrated on selling sheep and cattle and digging big holes in the ground.

I suppose seeing as so many holes are already dug, we could become the number one toilet for the world's escalating nuclear waste disposal problem. :beerbang:


----------



## Dave70 (18/8/15)

_"Five years ago, former Labor MP and bright boy Lindsay Tanner wrote about the value of intellectual life: "Perhaps it's one of those things that should be restricted to consenting adults in private. Few politicians would own up to being an intellectual. In the present age of vacuous populism, intellectual means elitist, theoretical and out of touch. I suspect a new version of Barry Jones would struggle to win community support."_

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/is-antiintellectualism-killing-the-national-conversation-20150801-gipidj.html


----------



## Weizguy (18/8/15)

spog said:


> I reckon that's him,a pollie who gave a stuff...I think they're refered to as Dinosaurs these days .


And was succeeded by Joe Hockey - go figure.


Ha ha, a dinosaur succeeded by a hippo. I like that he lost weight immediately before he was elected, so he wouldn't look like a pig when he piled the weight back on post-election


----------



## Liam_snorkel (18/8/15)

haha yeah, he had lap-band surgery. 
Clearly has been cheating it, sneaking in the calories.. just like he sneaks in the 'travel' expenses for living in his wife's house.


----------



## Weizguy (18/8/15)

stretchy, stretchy rubber (lap)band


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/8/15)

real_beer said:


> Australia's hope for the future:
> 
> Young people like Jessica Watson showing what can be done chasing your dreams.


As Henry Ford said, 'A man can if he thinks he can, a man can't if he thinks he can't'


----------



## mje1980 (18/8/15)

He also doubled his workers wages. How many modern businessmen would do that lol


----------



## Black Devil Dog (18/8/15)

Not sure about doubling, but this bloke gave his employees a generous pay rise, while cutting his own very generous salary.

It seems that not all staff are happy though, because even the slackers got a raise.


----------



## Lemon (18/8/15)

As Douglas Adams wrote,
"The people vote for the lizards because if they don't , the wrong lizard might get in"


----------



## goomboogo (18/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Not sure about doubling, but this bloke gave his employees a generous pay rise, while cutting his own very generous salary.
> 
> It seems that not all staff are happy though, because even the slackers got a raise.


It has been reported recently that he is now renting out rooms in his house because he can't make ends meet on his new reduced salary.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (18/8/15)

manticle said:


> I don't believe it's a conspiracy, from either side.
> 
> Booing is pretty boring to me in any sport. Never been a fan of it except (grudingly) when booing blatant bad sportsmanship.
> 
> I'd be surprised if anyone could tell me there's no racial motivation in this instance and keep a straight face.


You are only suggesting the booing is racism because Adam is aboriginal which in affect makes your comment racist.......booing a single person cannot be racist unless of course you consider Adam Goodes a race?


----------



## wobbly (18/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It seems that not all staff are happy though, because even the slackers got a raise.


That's the benefit of Unions for you "it's a race to the bottom" with every one getting the same (lowest denominator) no incentive to perform/contribution.

Why would you!!!

Wobbly


----------



## Burt de Ernie (18/8/15)

wobbly said:


> That's the benefit of Unions for you "it's a race to the bottom" with every one getting the same (lowest denominator) no incentive to perform/contribution.
> 
> Why would you!!!
> 
> Wobbly


Socialism at its best.........


----------



## Black Devil Dog (18/8/15)

wobbly said:


> That's the benefit of Unions for you "it's a race to the bottom" with every one getting the same (lowest denominator) no incentive to perform/contribution.
> 
> Why would you!!!
> 
> Wobbly


Oh no, you just went and added another 15 pages. h34r:


----------



## goomboogo (18/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Socialism at its best.........


How is that even remotely socialism?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Oh no, you just went and added another 15 pages. h34r:


This thread surely doesnt need re-hydrating....


----------



## JDW81 (18/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> This thread surely doesnt need re-hydrating....


And a single smack pack of wyeast is enough to innocculate a standard 20L batch of 1050 beer h34r:


----------



## Burt de Ernie (18/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> How is that even remotely socialism?


Removing incentive for high performers is socialism.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (18/8/15)

manticle said:


> I don't believe it's a conspiracy, from either side.
> 
> Booing is pretty boring to me in any sport. Never been a fan of it except (grudingly) when booing blatant bad sportsmanship.
> 
> I'd be surprised if anyone could tell me there's no racial motivation in this instance and keep a straight face.





Burt de Ernie said:


> You are only suggesting the booing is racism because Adam is aboriginal which in affect makes your comment racist.......booing a single person cannot be racist unless of course you consider Adam Goodes a race?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> And a single smack pack of wyeast is enough to innocculate a standard 20L batch of 1050 beer h34r:


Yep. Sure is


----------



## Black Devil Dog (18/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> pQMgkBt.jpg


----------



## goomboogo (18/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Removing incentive for high performers is socialism.


The absence of social ownership of the means of production makes your example something other than socialism.

Many workplaces in Australia provide work that is either carried out successfully or not. The idea of one person being paid more than another for performing the same job is redundant in many types of work. I acknowledge this isn't the case for all types of work. It's just that many of us aren't special enough to be separated from the masses.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (18/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> The absence of social ownership of the means of production makes your example something other than socialism.
> 
> Many workplaces in Australia provide work that is either carried out successfully or not. The idea of one person being paid more than another for performing the same job is redundant in many types of work. I acknowledge this isn't the case for all types of work. It's just that many of us aren't special enough to be separated from the masses.


I know that if I'm not going to be rewarded for working harder or smarter or I will do neither.

The only reason an average person is unable to be separated from the masses is because that person has not taken the necessary steps to be separated. A likely cause could be that one is rewarded for doing less.


----------



## goomboogo (18/8/15)

That still has nothing to do with socialism. However, your example of separating oneself presupposes a requirement to do so. If a job requires a person to deliver the same goods to the same sites everyday then why should one person be paid more to carry out the same task than another person completing the exact same task.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (18/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> That still has nothing to do with socialism. However, your example of separating oneself presupposes a requirement to do so. If a job requires a person to deliver the same goods to the same sites everyday then why should one person be paid more to carry out the same task than another person completing the exact same task.


Here is an experiment which demonstrates how not rewarding higher achievers and rewarding under achievers (socialism) is bad. 

_*An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.*_
_*The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).*_
_*After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.*_
_*The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.*_
_*To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that. *_

If I deliver twice as much as you I should be paid more because I am more productive and I earn the company more money. If I don't get more that you I would effectively be supporting your lazy arse and encouraging you to do even less.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> That still has nothing to do with socialism. However, your example of separating oneself presupposes a requirement to do so. If a job requires a person to deliver the same goods to the same sites everyday then why should one person be paid more to carry out the same task than another person completing the exact same task.


Maybe the higher paid worker is in a Union........... just sayin' :lol:


----------



## manticle (18/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As Henry Ford said, 'A man can if he thinks he can, a man can't if he thinks he can't'


I can, I can't.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_021cajac


----------



## manticle (18/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> You are only suggesting the booing is racism because Adam is aboriginal which in affect makes your comment racist.......booing a single person cannot be racist unless of course you consider Adam Goodes a race?


What? So if I call a single person a nigger **** dyke kike faggot poof or any other derogatory term, it can't be sexist/racist/locust/breadcrust/whateverist because they're one person?

Serious comment or taking the piss because if serious I'll buy you a drawing board you can return to at leisure.


----------



## manticle (18/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Here is an experiment which demonstrates how not rewarding higher achievers and rewarding under achievers (socialism) is bad.
> 
> _*An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.*_
> _*The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).*_
> ...


Where did you pull that crap from?

I am not and never will be a socialist as I disagree with certain fundamental aspects but at least, if you disagree with it; try and be informed. I highly doubt that anecdote has any basis in reality. It has little basis in what socialism actually espouses and using it as an argument against socialism in a thread that has bugger all to do with socialism (mostly liberal vs labor) makes you look uninformed. You have the right to an opinion but the less informed your opinion is, the less weight it carries. 

Again I offer you a drawing board. If you won't take the drawing board, try reading a book.


----------



## technobabble66 (19/8/15)

A real economics professor would (or should) have understood that his scheme was actually more a demonstration of communism than of socialism, the latter being a system that advocates social ownership of production and distribution, not an equal distribution of resources to all citizens regardless of their efforts. 

Fwiw, it took literally 10 seconds to find that pretty obvious critique of what has been essentially spam propaganda of the U.S. far right lobbyists. 
I quoted it as it seems to concisely say what I think a lot of us could easily identify in that long fictional anecdote. 

Australia's been a good society by striving to (fairly successfully) achieve a balance between the better aspects of both socialism and capitalism. 
Trying to argue blindly for solely one side *or* the other seems to be a blatant disregard &/or ignorance of our actual history. And a lack of appreciation of what we have here. 

Quoting economics propaganda from the U.S. Seems to be a particularly poor move - one of the most inequitable societies in the Western World: great if you're on top of the heap, not if you're one of the *millions* that aren't. Or if you want an education. Or if you have a health problem. or if you're Mexican, apparently. 
I think the U.S. is our great ally, but it is foolish to not see why we've clearly done a better job here in many many ways - both socially and economically. Being the biggest economy isn't necessarily the best outcome if you sacrifice everything else along the way to do it. 

One final word:
Rehydrate.


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

manticle said:


> What? So if I call a single person a nigger **** dyke kike faggot poof or any other derogatory term, it can't be sexist/racist/locust/breadcrust/whateverist because they're one person?
> 
> Serious comment or taking the piss because if serious I'll buy you a drawing board you can return to at leisure.


Nigger = race based derogatory comment
**** = foul general comment
Dyke = minority based derogatory comment
kike = I'm not sure what this is
faggot = minority based derogatory comment
Poof = minority based derogatory comment

You calling me a racist for booing Adam Goodes because hes a dickhead and not because of the colour of his skin= Racist. If Adam were white would you be screaming "racist!"?

If I were a racist surely I would be booing all aboriginals. The fact it was only Adam Goodes means it wasn't racially motivated.


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

manticle said:


> a thread that has bugger all to do with socialism (mostly liberal vs labor)


Haha.....good one.

Labor = socialist
Liberal = capitalist


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> A real economics professor would (or should) have understood that his scheme was actually more a demonstration of communism than of socialism, the latter being a system that advocates social ownership of production and distribution, not an equal distribution of resources to all citizens regardless of their efforts.
> 
> Fwiw, it took literally 10 seconds to find that pretty obvious critique of what has been essentially spam propaganda of the U.S. far right lobbyists.
> I quoted it as it seems to concisely say what I think a lot of us could easily identify in that long fictional anecdote.
> ...


I agree totally with you but it was more about the principle. In Australia currently everyone has a fair go with so complaining that you cant set yourself apart from the masses especially when education and re-education is relatively easy to come by is cop out.


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## Liam_snorkel (19/8/15)

You boo Goodes in the context of him highlighting entrenched racism in Australian society, and you think it would be better if he hadn't. Seriously were you dropped at birth?


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> You boo Goodes in the context of him highlighting entrenched racism in Australian society, and you think it would be better if he hadn't. Seriously were you dropped at birth?


You only say this because I am white which make you racist!

As a racist you have just put words in my mouth to support an unfounded view which in turn fuels the notion that racism is entrenched in Australian society.


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## Liam_snorkel (19/8/15)

This is either next-level trolling, or you're thick as a short plank. :unsure:


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> This is either next-level trolling, or you're thick as a short plank. :unsure:


That's two personal attacks in two posts neither based on any fact.

You are the troll.


----------



## contrarian (19/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I agree totally with you but it was more about the principle. In Australia currently everyone has a fair go with so complaining that you cant set yourself apart from the masses especially when education and re-education is relatively easy to come by is cop out.


Anyone who thinks Australia is a level playing field hasn't seen the challenges some Australians are up against since birth or the privilege others experience from birth. Entrenched socioeconomic disadvantage is a big issue and while it is possible for people born into it to achieve it is much harder than for someone who attends private schools and has a family with strong connections. 

The fact that everyone has access to education and healthcare is fantastic. So is the fact that we have good infrastructure and a stable government which creates the environment for business to flourish. These are also paid for by everyone proportionately to how much they benefit. How is this a bad thing?


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## Liam_snorkel (19/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> That's two personal attacks in two posts neither based on any fact.
> 
> You are the troll.


 it was a proposition based on your posts in this thread. What makes you think Australian if the year Goodes is a dickhead?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

I agree with you contrarian it is much harder to succeed than someone who went to a private school and had family wealth behind them but it is those who are less privileged who have a greater will to succeed, and that will make all the difference. When you haven't had everything given to you on a plate you will work a lot harder.

Tony Liberatore was booed, especially by Richmond supporters, but I doubt it was anything to do with him being from Maltese stock, more about his actions on the ground, same as Kyrgios in Canada for his actions on the court.

I read this week that a man was fined in the UK, 280 pounds with 100 pounds compensation for calling an Irishman Paddy, I checked in the Oxford dictionary sure enough Paddy is no longer an affectionate word for Patrick but is now a racial slur, I expect it will be the same for Taffy and Jock.


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## goomboogo (19/8/15)

Burt, if you truly believe the ALP is a socialist organisation then more education is required before speaking about socialism. Not knowing about a particular topic is not a problem. However,it is a problem when a person speaks loudly on a topic without understanding the most basic elements of the topic. Critical thinking is your friend. Don't be defined by a lack of it.


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

I lost any respect for Adam when he social status to call out the 13 yr old. Albeit it was because it was a racial slur, it didn't make what he did acceptable in any way shape of form.

Do I think the amount of booing is ridiculous....yes I do.

Is it racially motivated... no its not.


----------



## manticle (19/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> That's two personal attacks in two posts neither based on any fact.
> 
> You are the troll.





Burt de Ernie said:


> Haha.....good one.
> 
> Labor = socialist
> Liberal = capitalist


Simply repeating the same badly iterated points doesn't make what you're saying any nearer to truth.
You're so far off the mark, it's hard to know where to begin.

Might as well debate someone who insists a muffin is some kind of an eclair.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Burt, if you truly believe the ALP is a socialist organisation then more education is required before speaking about socialism. Not knowing about a particular topic is not a problem. However,it is a problem when a person speaks loudly on a topic without understanding the most basic elements of the topic. Critical thinking is your friend. Don't be defined by a lack of it.


The ALP`s own constitution stipulates that is a "democratic socialist party".

My opinion is that any government should have a balance between socialism and capitalism. Lets face it, we are only as strong as our weakest link.

My previous comments were not based on at country leadership level rather a personal level. In my opinion on a personal level, having a socialist attitude is not only detrimental to you and your family but it is also detrimental to the country. On a personal level a capitalist attitude to work will get you a lot farther in life.


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## Burt de Ernie (19/8/15)

manticle said:


> Simply repeating the same badly iterated points doesn't make what you're saying any nearer to truth.
> You're so far off the mark, it's hard to know where to begin.
> 
> Might as well debate someone who insists a muffin is some kind of an eclair.


Agreed, you would be better off debating someone who insists a muffin is some kind of an éclair when you are unable to provide a counter.


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## goomboogo (19/8/15)

Burt, how do you define socialism?


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Socialism | Define Socialism at Dictionary.com


*dictionary*.reference.com/browse/*socialism*






*socialism definition*. An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity.


_“The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields”._


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

I would say the Labor arty is more Egalitarian than the LNP would ever hope to be


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## contrarian (19/8/15)

I agree that for some people who have not had life presented to them on a platter that this is motivation to work hard and succeed. For others the level of social disadvantage they experience makes it almost impossible to succeed. 

30 years ago social housing was predominantly to support the working poor but now it is primarily supporting people with complex, inter generational problems. 

There are some streets where all housing is social housing and no member of any of the families has worked for 3 generations. There is very little understanding or support of the benefits of education. Children born into these kind of situations often have no role models of what a work ethic is, often experience violence, abuse and neglect and so the cycle continues. 

These are very different situations from the working poor like my grandfather who spent his working life in an abattoir. He had a with ethic and instilled that in his family. 

Telling these people all they need to do is to try harder is victim blaming at it's worst but it is much easier to write off their effort than to consider how it is possible to address the complex challenges they have to become contributing members of society. 

One of the big lies of capitalism is that those who work the hardest reap the greatest rewards. Those who control the means of production reap the rewards at he expense of those who work the hardest!


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Not disagreeing with a lot of what you say, except for the last paragraph. If it wasn't for those who control the means of production, where would those who work the hardest work.
There will always have to be people willing to invest in industry which in turn provides employment, they are neither use without each other.


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## Liam_snorkel (19/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Is it racially motivated... no its not.


If it's not racially motivated you'd have to have been living under a rock for the last 2 years, I don't think ignorance is any kind of excuse for participating in it. I suggest reading some of Stan Grant's commentary on the issue, such as this piece:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/30/i-can-tell-you-how-adam-goodes-feels-every-indigenous-person-has-felt-it

I'm a white fella too BTW.


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## Leviathan (19/8/15)

Reading some of the last few pages here brings this to mind "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


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## goomboogo (19/8/15)

WEAL, do you believe the ALP of 2015 is a socialist organisation? It seems a very difficult proposition to argue when they ascribe to the same neo-liberal economic principles as the LNP. For that matter, the vast majority of governments around the world follow the same economic doctrine.


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## contrarian (19/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Not disagreeing with a lot of what you say, except for the last paragraph. If it wasn't for those who control the means of production, where would those who work the hardest work.
> There will always have to be people willing to invest in industry which in turn provides employment, they are neither use without each other.


I don't actually have a problem with people who invest heavily in business doing well out of it. I do have a problem with the concept that all you have to do is work hard and you will be a success. There are a lot of people in the developed world who work bloody hard just to get by. 

The relationship between how hard you work and what you earn is tenuous at best. That is my issue rather than the structure of capitalism per se.


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## Dave70 (19/8/15)

contrarian said:


> One of the big lies of capitalism is that those who work the hardest reap the greatest rewards. Those who control the means of production reap the rewards at he expense of those who work the hardest!


Depends on how you define 'rewards'. The personal satisfaction that comes from a hard days work or financial compensation? Likely you'll be paid just as modestly planting rice in a communist run paddy as a capitalist one. Rice is worth what its worth on the open market regardless if its out of the PRC or India.
If the bloke who owns the farm had to mortgage everything he owned to by it, make sure the bills get paid every month etc..etc, he took the risk. Why he shouldn't reap the rewards? 
A great brickies laborer will always be a laborer no matter how hard he works. Its not until he buys a ute and employs other laborers so he can take on more work he'll go further. Pretty soon he may find himself off the tools and working from an office liaising with builders instead of lugging barrows of cement. Capitalism is an attitude. Its a housewife making relish in her kitchen and flogging it in the local farmers market. Its a kid with a lemonade stand. Its about working smarter as much as it is about working harder, and nobody in this country is precluded.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

No one ever gets rich working for someone else...unless maybe its a huge multinational and you make it to exec level...but even then there are only a few who can ever make it

ALL the people I know who are resonabely well off worked for themselves, not for someone else


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## contrarian (19/8/15)

I completely agree and don't have a problem with this at all. I was more responding to the point that everyone in Australia has a fair go. 

While I agree that no one is precluded different people start from very different positions which are of variable advantage or disadvantage. 

For me a fair go implies a relatively level playing field which we don't have currently. This is very different from the opportunity to have a go and everyone in Australia definitely has this.


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## Weizguy (19/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As Henry Ford said, 'A man can if he thinks he can, a man can't if he thinks he can't'


...and Brony thought that she could get free helicopter flights as a perk, until someone told her that she's a can't!


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## Airgead (19/8/15)

And anyone who could remotely mistake Obama for a socialist should lose their teaching job instantly. On the grounds of being profoundly stupid.

Seriously, if you think that is anything remotely like socialism you are really badly misinformed.

And booing one person can't be called racist - bullshit. That's just stupid. Same as saying that calling one person an abbo or coon (or wog or towel head) isn't racist because one person isn't a race. It's self justifying claptrap.

Where's the facepalm emoticon on this phone.

Edited because autocorrect hates me


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

contrarian said:


> For me a fair go implies a relatively level playing field which we don't have currently. This is very different from the opportunity to have a go and everyone in Australia definitely has this.


And this is one issue I have with what the LNP want to do to higher education.

They want to push the idea that only those with money can get a decent education, and screw the rest. All this does is to increase the divide between the have's and the have not's, and ironically its these pricks making these decisions as to who can get an education got theirs for free, under a Labor thought out policy

Can anyone spot the hypocrisy there...


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## Dave70 (19/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No one ever gets rich working for someone else...unless maybe its a huge multinational and you make it to exec level...but even then there are only a few who can ever make it
> 
> ALL the people I know who are resonabely well off worked for themselves, not for someone else


Conversely most of the bankrupts I know - and have been caught by - also worked for themselves. Sometimes it was their fault, other times they were just another domino. Many lost literally everything they owned.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

It does go both ways.

I know businesses that subcontracted and went under on big projects like the BER, Highway upgrades etc because the terms of payment where unjust ( where talking 9-12mnths before payment...I shit you not). And its allways the little guys that get fucked over.


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> WEAL, do you believe the ALP of 2015 is a socialist organisation? It seems a very difficult proposition to argue when they ascribe to the same neo-liberal economic principles as the LNP. For that matter, the vast majority of governments around the world follow the same economic doctrine.


If you had asked the same question before the Labor Party Conference I would have said emphatically no, but that same section 2 which I quoted was put forward to be amended at the conference by Luke Foley here is his amendment.
_The Australian Labor Party has as its objective the achievement of a just and equitable society where every person has the opportunity to realise their potential._
_“We believe in an active role for government, and the operation of competitive markets, in order to create opportunities for all Australians, so that every person will have the freedom to pursue their wellbeing, in co-operation with their fellow citizens, free from exploitation and discrimination”_.
When he got up to put forward the amendment he was greeted with jeers and shame, so does that mean the ALP are happy with the original 1921 objective?


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## seamad (19/8/15)

The original 1921 objective has been changed several times over the years, the last time being 1981, with some 23 additions.At this years conference foley and sheldon proposed this motion, which passed despite some jeering of foley

The party’s principles and objectives were last reviewed properly at a special national conference in 1981. Australia and the world have changed substantially since that time.
The 1981 debate was preceded by a comprehensive and substantial consultation process.
This conference resolves to commence a review of our socialist objective, with a view to replacing the existing language with the most appropriate and modern set of principles and objectives for the Australian Labor party.
This review shall be led by a broadly representative panel, appointed by national executive at its first ordinary meeting after this conference. Terms of reference are to be finalised by national executive but are to include:

an obligation to seek input from all members and affiliated unions of the party;
an obligation to undertake a process of active discussion and consultation;
an obligation to circulate draft proposals and identify those proposals that are most likely to be adopted by consensus.

The quote of foley's you supplied was from, i understand , an earlier speech


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

_“The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields”._

This objective has never changed and is still written as above in the ALP constitution.


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## Airgead (19/8/15)

Let me ask another question... WTF is so bad about socialism anyway? 

Surely having the "_objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields” _is a pretty damn good objective. If only they would stick to it and not head further down the US style neoliberal, hyper individualist path that they seem hell bent on following.

I ask again - WTF makes socialism so bad? Surely giving the workers a social stake in the means of production (the goal of socialism) is a worthy goal. 

For the more hysterical types, before replying, read up on the difference between socialism and communism. A social stake in the means of production does not mean state control.


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## kaiserben (19/8/15)

Poor Bronnie! This new gig is definitely beneath a woman of her station. 

https://instagram.com/p/6g3Makutwx/


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Your right about socialization as a means of production may not mean state control, there are various ways of interpretation what it does mean according to ALP is to be owned by a co-operative of its employees.
At the last conference of the ALP one of their objectives is,
Democratic control and strategic social ownership of all Australian natural resources for the benefit of all Australians
The question then is would it work, if we were all the same I would say yes but we are not we are all different with different ideas.


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## Airgead (19/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The question then is would it work, if we were all the same I would say yes but we are not we are all different with different ideas.


Just saying "it won't work because reasons" is a cop out not a critique.

In what way does having different ideas stop us extending the benefits of production to those doing the actual production (ie: rewarding the workers fairly for working). Unless that different idea is to get rich off the back of other people's labor?

How can extending the economic benefits of labor to those undertaking the labor rather than concentrating the benefits in the hands of a few, be a bad thing? And if anyone mentions trickle down economics I will burst into fits of incredulous laughter. The ancient Athenians played around with that for a while then decided it didn't work because the rich hoarded their extra wealth. We have known trickle down is a fallacy for well over 2000 years now.


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## mje1980 (19/8/15)

Call me a socialist but managing the country with a view to benefitting all citizens rather than a wealthy few ( companies ) seems alright by me


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Who said it wouldn't work? I stated that we are all different with different ideas some of us will pull their weight some of us will not some of us would like to be in charge of our own destiny's some of us would just like to go with the flow.
Just look at Russia and China since they reformed from communism the people are better off, 70 million people in China now go on overseas holidays an ex security guard is in the driving seat in Russia and is the 6th richest man in the world with millions of Russians going on overseas holidays. Not hard to work out.


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## mje1980 (19/8/15)

The people are better off? Or the middle class are better off?


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## seamad (19/8/15)

Credit Suisse report 2013

One of the report's main authors, Tony Shorrocks of the London-based consultancy Global Economic Perspectives, told RFE/RL on October 10 that wealth disparity in Russia is unparalleled.

"Russia is really an outlier," Shorrocks said. "Even compared with the U.S., which has more wealth inequality than most countries, [Russia] is still totally separate from the rest of the world. It may not be too different from some of the Central Asian countries, and there are a few Caribbean nations that happen to have a resident billionaire. So they get similar sorts of numbers."

Shorrocks says what is most striking about Russia's richest citizens is that most have made their money by controlling companies in the natural-resources sector -- like gas giant Gazprom, oil companies, or metals firms -- and use their political connections with the Kremlin to maintain their fortunes.

"Billionaires in Russia obviously have very much connected with natural resources," he said. "And clearly, we're talking about recent fortunes that have been made in the last 20 years. It's quite clear that these natural-resource companies do require political support in various ways. So there does seem to be more political connections between the billionaires in Russia than there are in other countries."


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## Black Devil Dog (19/8/15)

Are the middle class not people?


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## Vini2ton (19/8/15)

Leviathan said:


> Reading some of the last few pages here brings this to mind "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


Or to post anything political on a homebrew forum. It causes " kit-twang"!


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Remember there was no class system in China there was the peasants and the communist party leaders those who have made it to middle class have made it through hard work, not by complaining that they are getting ripped by their employers they have created their own wealth.


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

I agree with you seamad, this is how Putin has got his money he sells favours and takes a percentage of the resources sector, even so the people are better off, it will settle remember this is not really a democracy and there are still a lot of bad elements in Russia.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Remember there was no class system in China there was the peasants and the communist party leaders those who have made it to middle class have made it through hard work,


Are you serious....


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I agree with you seamad, this is how Putin has got his money he sells favours and takes a percentage of the resources sector, even so the people are better off, it will settle remember this is not really a democracy and there are still a lot of bad elements in Russia.


Yes, the rich Russians are better off.


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## spog (19/8/15)

Vini2ton said:


> Or to post anything political on a homebrew forum. It causes " kit-twang"!


Guilty.


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## seamad (19/8/15)

Wealth distribution, who wants to be a ruski ?


mean median Adults% in $US
Thousands Adults wealth wealth

< 10K 10K-100K 100K-1million >1million





Australia

16,617 

402,578

219,505 

6.9 

23.7

62.6 

6.8 

100 






China 

998,254

22,230

8,023 

58.4 

39.1

2.4 

0.1 

100






Russian Federation

110,365 

10,976 

871 

93.7 

5.6 

0.6 

0.1 

100


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## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Both examples of China and Russia are fledgling capitalist countries, ask any of the people in those 2 countries what they would prefer, the life they had 30 or 40 years ago or what they have now.
Having lived and worked in China (milking the cash cow along with millions of Chinese) I know what they would say


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## spog (19/8/15)

seamad said:


> Wealth distribution, who wants to be a ruski ?
> 
> 
> mean median Adults% in $US
> ...


 Be buggered if I can figure out how to read that chart,all I know is that there are some Aussies who have more money than all of us put together. Half their luck .


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

Still a hell of a lot of Chinese and Russians who are a very, very long way away from being even middle class

For the vast majority of them, life still sucks bricks


----------



## wide eyed and legless (19/8/15)

Is the glass half full or is the glass half empty?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/15)

Is the glass the right size ?


----------



## mje1980 (19/8/15)

When people are chaining their kids up in the street so they can go and work in the pollution factory I reckon 7/8 empty. 








Good and bad in all systems, and there are extremes on both sides that have been brought up here. I doubt anyone here seriously has a problem with people building up a successful business through hard work, just as I doubt anyone here seriously has a problem with people working under fair working conditions for decent pay.


----------



## manticle (19/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Both examples of China and Russia are fledgling capitalist countries, ask any of the people in those 2 countries what they would prefer, the life they had 30 or 40 years ago or what they have now.
> Having lived and worked in China (milking the cash cow along with millions of Chinese) I know what they would say


There is no connection between communist Russia/China and Australia under Labor so I'm really unsure of the point you're trying to make. They have almost nothing in common.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (19/8/15)

Worldly observations are,

What about local?

Overall I think local is the priority as well as being mindful of abroad but time trying to fix things on another side of the earth can just exuberate problems here. We are small but that's not a disadvantage.
We are Australia and **** the old grudges. Its all diluted with Multicultural mingling. That should be considered a strength.
$0.02


----------



## manticle (20/8/15)

Not local? Wet the bed I expect, as a boy.


----------



## Tropico (20/8/15)

From the high chair at the front, to the cold and lonely seat up at the back.

Shame, Bronwyn, shame.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/8/15)

manticle said:


> There is no connection between communist Russia/China and Australia under Labor so I'm really unsure of the point you're trying to make. They have almost nothing in common.


I made no connection at all between the 3 countries , never even mentioned Australia sure you are not getting confused with seamad's wealth distribution chart?


----------



## goomboogo (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I made no connection at all between the 3 countries , never even mentioned Australia sure you are not getting confused with seamad's wealth distribution chart?


To be fair, the chart was quite confusing.


----------



## Dave70 (20/8/15)

Airgead said:


> Let me ask another question... WTF is so bad about socialism anyway?


What type of socialism Dave?

Marxist?
Trotsky? 
Libertarian? 
Democratic?
Liberal?
Anarchism?

Either way you still end up at the polling booth with a ballot paper the size of a table cloth.
Not for me anyway. I'm a social liberal right wing materialist.

_ Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.._


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/8/15)

Not my usual reading material, could be accused of pilfering it from seamad's library but a very interesting and informative read.

http://leftfocus.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/responding-to-chris-bowen-on-labors.html


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/8/15)




----------



## Dave70 (20/8/15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUjymz9tnU


----------



## technobabble66 (20/8/15)

I'm not sure if that's really funny or really sad - I realized shortly into it, it seems remarkably similar to our current media (w a very few exceptions) and their complete inability to engage in meaningful enquiry and analysis. 
Great value though, Monty Python, hey Bruce?


----------



## technobabble66 (20/8/15)

Ho Ho ho. 
Looks like Kathy Jackson et al are not the only ones prone to dipping their hands in the cookie jar. 
http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/victorian-liberal-party-probes-missing-millions-20150819-gj3akk.html

Maybe it's a good time to suggest general transparency of political funds and their lobbyists. 
Rather than just trying to, say, tar the unions as being all bad. 
I'm a huge fan of checking the unions for corruption, as the few that are corrupt need to be weeded out and fully prosecuted. But to do it in such a ham fisted way that it looks like a witch hunt is gross incompetency on the part of politicians whose profession theoretically specialize in PR skills. How could a Liberal PM be such an idiot?!?
And to claim it's only unions/Labor that might do it is down right ridiculous. 
Anyone serious about corruption in our politics & lobbyists should be trying to cast a wider net. 
Look at developing & 3rd world nations. Corruption is *the* scourge of a society. 
If only we had someone in politics who could be a leader...

I think I should stop being an idealist.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/8/15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8A4RDemfHo


----------



## Dave70 (20/8/15)

^That really got my toes a tappin^


----------



## pcmfisher (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Both examples of China and Russia are fledgling capitalist countries, ask any of the people in those 2 countries what they would prefer, the life they had 30 or 40 years ago or what they have now.
> Having lived and worked in China (milking the cash cow along with millions of Chinese) I know what they would say


Things must have been pretty bad 40 years ago (which they were) if they consider themselves better off today with 800 million (out of 1.35 billion) Chinese still living on less than $15 per day.

This and the thousands of billionaires emerging suggests there is probably as bigger wealth disparity as ever.

These working class 800 million will never be one of the billionaires. 

For that you have to be a either a politician or have close links to politics where corruption is rife.


----------



## Airgead (20/8/15)

Ok... so i asked what was bad about socialism and got a bunch of stuff about Russia and China which were, as I pointed out, communist.

Not saying communism is a good idea. but really, WTF is so wrong with the socialist aim of giving everyone a social stake in the means of production? Or to put it another way, to treat people fairly.

Why is socialist used as an insult these days?

And to the concern that some people won't pull their weight... sure. And they don't share the rewards. There is nothing in socialism that says we support free riders. Give the workers (ie: not the bludgers... though really there are very very few of them despite what a current affair tells us) a social stake in what they do.

And to Dave70's point about what type of socialism... I'm a fan of the Nordic model of democratic socialism that has seen them leverage their enormous resource wealth into vast sovereign wealth funds to benefit society when the resources run out rather than do what we have done and turn our vast resource wealth into giant profits that are shipped off shore by multinational mining companies who then want to replace local labor with imported workers in special economic zones where they can pay a dollar a day and further increase their profits ate the expense of society..

Cheers
Dave


----------



## wobbly (20/8/15)

The Nordic model (Sweden, Finland, Norway etc) is often held up as a shining light without the full story being told such as to the level of contribution (taxation) payed by all (not just a few high income earners) so as to support the benefits that all are entitled to receive. The value added tax (_mervärdesskatt_ or _moms_) rate in Sweden is 25%, with exceptions for food and services like hotel room rental fees (12%), and for sales of publications, admission tickets to cultural events and travel within Sweden (6%).[3] Further information for 2014 can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden

I don't have an issue with that model as every one contributes to the heavy lifting

Before all an sundry get on the bandwagon company tax is very low at around 9% (or something like that) and if it is earned in the country it is paid in the country which is right and appropriate

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## manticle (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I made no connection at all between the 3 countries , never even mentioned Australia sure you are not getting confused with seamad's wealth distribution chart?


You mentioned Russia and China in response to Airgead before Seamad's graph. This thread is/was about Australian politics.
While I do often get confused, I'm not sure I am in this instance.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/8/15)

This thread was about Bronwyn Bishop before it went freelance and started covering Aussie rules,racism,socialism,emerging from communism, now we are in Denmark one of the highest taxed countries in the world.Who still haven't solved the problem of the chasm of the have and the have not's


----------



## Dave70 (20/8/15)

They have boxed smart with natural resources to be sure. Makes us look like chumps.
As far as the Nordic model of socialism goes, I guess you could call it that. Another thing you could call it is wealth redistribution. A rose by another name?
Its of course no accident that the countries who enjoy the highest standards of living, universal health care, free education etc also pay the highest tax. The opposite seems to be true also. This seems to be a concept most people cant get through their skulls. We can all have a government allocated personal gold plated doctor on standby 24/7 if we want, but someones got to pay for it. 
I'd be happy to pay more tax if I knew it was to be re invested wisely and not pissed against the wall.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> I'd be happy to pay more tax if I knew it was to be re invested wisely and not pissed against the wall.


this seems to be the real issue in this country. I'd guess that most people are in this boat, but just don't trust our elected representatives to... represent us.

EDIT: shit, we almost got back to the original topic there!


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/8/15)

Agree with you Dave we only pay a 2% levy for medicare as opposed to 8% in Denmark and still we complained when Abbott wanted a levy to visit the doctor. My current treatment is costing $10,000 / month, for 2 years or till I fall off the perch or recover, luckily I got on a world wide trial where 360 of us get the drug for free. Seeing all the young cancer patients is truly depressing I would also pay more tax and like to see which ever government is in power to use the tax dollars more efficiently.

`For this years top of the charts for Economic freedom Australia came in at 4th Denmark 11th Sweden 23rd Iceland 26th and Iceland 27th


----------



## manticle (20/8/15)

Airgead said:


> Why is socialist used as an insult these days?



I think it's the fault of those annoying cockheads from Socialist alliance trying to hijack every sociopolitical issue and make it about class struggle. Hell I've played futsal with some and even the futsal match is politicised. Self righteous, dogmatic, angry, humourless, tedious twats giving anyone who veers left a bad name and treating anyone who isn't as hardcore as they as as some kind of neo-conservative apologist


----------



## Dave70 (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Agree with you Dave we only pay a 2% levy for medicare as opposed to 8% in Denmark and still we complained when Abbott wanted a levy to visit the doctor. My current treatment is costing $10,000 / month, for 2 years or till I fall off the perch or recover, luckily I got on a world wide trial where 360 of us get the drug for free. Seeing all the young cancer patients is truly depressing I would also pay more tax and like to see which ever government is in power to use the tax dollars more efficiently.
> 
> `For this years top of the charts for Economic freedom Australia came in at 4th *Denmark 11th Sweden 23rd Iceland 26th and Iceland 27th *


Those Nordic smartarses. Think they're so clever with all their geothermal green energy. Just wait until their steam runs out, they'll be begging for our filthy Aussie coal. BEGGING for it..


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/8/15)

ah, and from the same stats we are behind all the nordic countries in "freedom from corruption", which in a way goes to the heart of our problem. Our pollies are in it for themselves, and as a result can be bought (and will rort the system to their personal advantage).

http://www.heritage.org/index/explore

Wow, on topic again!


----------



## Airgead (20/8/15)

manticle said:


> I think it's the fault of those annoying cockheads from Socialist alliance trying to hijack every sociopolitical issue and make it about class struggle. Hell I've played futsal with some and even the futsal match is politicised. Self righteous, dogmatic, angry, humourless, tedious twats giving anyone who veers left a bad name and treating anyone who isn't as hardcore as they as as some kind of neo-conservative apologist


Indeed. Although certain media organisations who describe anyone slightly to the left of the extreme right as being practically communists and wanting to steal all your property and give it to a dole bludger, must shoulder a portion of the blame as well...


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Things must have been pretty bad 40 years ago (which they were) if they consider themselves better off today with 800 million (out of 1.35 billion) Chinese still living on less than $15 per day.
> 
> This and the thousands of billionaires emerging suggests there is probably as bigger wealth disparity as ever.
> 
> ...


Things were bad 40 years ago and today are still bad the minimum wage is $8.00 a week but the average wage is around $250 per week, the only reason wages go up is, or was, a labour shortage, while I was there the workers were on a good thing because it was a case of supply and demand, factories were having to put the wages up to poach decent workers a lot of the farming peasants were really unemployable. This is a country where unions would be invaluable but of course the only thing that one would get trying to start a union would be a bullet through the bonce.
As for the corruption the government will never stamp it out, it has gone on for thousands of years and is part of Chinese culture, but people do rise up from nothing to be a very wealthy person as Zhou Qunfei from nothing to a worth of $7 billion, and there are plenty more.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> ah, and from the same stats we are behind all the nordic countries in "freedom from corruption", which in a way goes to the heart of our problem. Our pollies are in it for themselves, and as a result can be bought (and will rort the system to their personal advantage).
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/explore
> 
> Wow, on topic again!


You have a good pollie up there in Queensland Liam not sure which side of politics he represented but he put up a good argument a few weeks ago on AM Agenda, he is a doctor and he was arguing against raising the GST and his view was that if the National Health System got is act together it wouldn't need the extra funding


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> I'm a social liberal right wing materialist.


 I'm a social liberal right wing materialist motorcyclist


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/8/15)

In regard to how the Government spends my tax

FF to 2:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WTfoT_y-BQ


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You have a good pollie up there in Queensland Liam not sure which side of politics he represented but he put up a good argument a few weeks ago on AM Agenda, he is a doctor and he was arguing against raising the GST and his view was that if the National Health System got is act together it wouldn't need the extra funding


Yep

My view is that the Federal Government fully fund health. It is already basically national. Skills and registrations are now across the board, Hospitals regularly transfer patients interstate to the nearest or best hospital. The states dont want to loose control as they get to skim a bit off from the health budget

We already prob have one of the best health care systems in the world. And I should know cause I have been on the receiving end of our health care system. How many countries you can go to hospital all smashed up, get fixed up properly and doest cost you $1.

I also agree that if we want the best health care and the best education then we have to pay tax for it.

I would gladly pay more tax if it made life better for everyone but was also spent wisely


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You have a good pollie up there in Queensland Liam not sure which side of politics he represented but he put up a good argument a few weeks ago on AM Agenda, he is a doctor and he was arguing against raising the GST and his view was that if the National Health System got is act together it wouldn't need the extra funding


That sounds like Andrew Laming. One good egg doesn't make up for the rest, sadly.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (20/8/15)

I don't care how much tax I pay as long as I have the opportunity to earn more, have a nicer house and better life than socialist bludgers.


----------



## manticle (20/8/15)

Airgead said:


> Indeed. Although certain media organisations who describe anyone slightly to the left of the extreme right as being practically communists and wanting to steal all your property and give it to a dole bludger, must shoulder a portion of the blame as well...


Unfortunately a fight I've already tried to have in this thread but I think brick walls do less damage to my head.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/8/15)

C'mon...leave the Daily Telegraph out of it....Wont be long and you wont be able to class it as a newspaper


----------



## Black Devil Dog (20/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Those Nordic smartarses. Think they're so clever with all their geothermal green energy. Just wait until their steam runs out, they'll be begging for our filthy Aussie coal. BEGGING for it..


That volcanic activity is sure to stop pretty soon, at least in the next 100 - 200 million years.


----------



## goomboogo (20/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I also agree that if we want the best health care and the best education then we have to pay tax for it.


Central Bank accounting dictates that tax revenue is not spent on government services. Taxation is merely an accounting entity and moves neither horizontally or vertically within the accounting system. The notion that a sovereign government with a fiat currency requires taxation to facilitate spending is one of the greatest misconceptions pedaled in the past 50 years.


----------



## manticle (20/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> This thread was about Bronwyn Bishop before it went freelance and started covering Aussie rules,racism,socialism,emerging from communism, now we are in Denmark one of the highest taxed countries in the world.Who still haven't solved the problem of the chasm of the have and the have not's


You still brought up russia and china (and I believe you were the first to do so) in response to airgead asking about what was terrible about socialism and socialist ideas. I could find and quote the posts but I'm sure you're perfectly capable. Why respond to a question about social policy in Australia with examples from totalitarian countries that came through an intense (and intensely bad) communist period into a corrupt, crime laden, politically and socially fraught capitalistic one? Is it an example of what may happen next time we get a labor government? We all turn into Maoists?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/8/15)

Because it suits his narrative


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I'm a social liberal right wing materialist motorcyclist


Being a motorcyclist makes you a materialist by default. Or was that masochist? 
I tend to favor Euro equipment you see.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Because the LNP would never introduce a totalitarianism style....I mean Tony has already stated that if you dont tow the party line you get sacked.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Being a motorcyclist makes you a materialist by default. Or was that masochist?
> I tend to favor Euro equipment you see.


Well only if you own more than 1.

And as far as ridding in winter in the rain...well, you got me there....

And there was a period in time when owning Latin machines was basically masochistic


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> ah, and from the same stats we are behind all the nordic countries in "freedom from corruption", which in a way goes to the heart of our problem. Our pollies are in it for themselves, and as a result can be bought (and will rort the system to their personal advantage).
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/explore
> 
> Wow, on topic again!


And thats the worst part of it. Every time one of these pigs is caught with their snout in the trough, our trust gets further eroded. Its extremely bad for the brand and produces the kind of jaded apathy and resentment you see even in these pages.
There should be a vested interest from within to put a broom through the whole establishment if they're interested in preserving any kind of integrity whatsoever. 
A political career these days looks more like all aboard the gravy train to junket town rather than a life devoted to public service.


----------



## Airgead (21/8/15)

Airgead said:


> Indeed. Although certain media organisations who describe anyone slightly to the left of the extreme right as being practically communists and wanting to steal all your property and give it to a dole bludger, must shoulder a portion of the blame as well...





Burt de Ernie said:


> I don't care how much tax I pay as long as I have the opportunity to earn more, have a nicer house and better life than socialist bludgers.



Your honour, the prosecution rests.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> You still brought up russia and china (and I believe you were the first to do so) in response to airgead asking about what was terrible about socialism and socialist ideas. I could find and quote the posts but I'm sure you're perfectly capable. Why respond to a question about social policy in Australia with examples from totalitarian countries that came through an intense (and intensely bad) communist period into a corrupt, crime laden, politically and socially fraught capitalistic one? Is it an example of what may happen next time we get a labor government? We all turn into Maoists?


My response to airgead's post was in post number 379, my post about the emergence of Russia and China was further to my first paragraph in post 382, when given the opportunity, some people will stop sitting on their hands and shape their own destiny, I could have named Indonesia if you would have preferred,emerging from a right wing dictatorship to a democracy, trouble is they don't seem to have done anything as yet.
You are the moderator if there are any of my posts you aren't happy with simply delete them, We have covered a lot in this thread, gay marriage, objective 2 of the ALP, Royal Commission, even Obama managed a look in, racism, Nordic Socialism, oh I almost forgot Bronwyn Bishop.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Who is this Bronwyn person you speak of, and is she improtant..?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

She was


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Was she....


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

Went down in a helicopter apparently RIP.


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Who is this Bronwyn person you speak of, and is she improtant..?


Ex-NRL player (hooker)


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Went down in a helicopter apparently RIP.


Was she a high class escort ?


----------



## Airgead (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Was she a high class escort ?


Now I have an image in my head that I really did not need.


----------



## booargy (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Was she a high class escort ?


 If you divide her fee by the amount of people who chucked in it/she is cheap but not many got what they paid for either.


----------



## RobW (21/8/15)

Love the smell of hairspray in the morning


----------



## pcmfisher (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Was she....


She thought so.


----------



## sponge (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Was she a high class escort ?


High altitude escort..


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> My response to airgead's post was in post number 379, my post about the emergence of Russia and China was further to my first paragraph in post 382, when given the opportunity, some people will stop sitting on their hands and shape their own destiny, I could have named Indonesia if you would have preferred,emerging from a right wing dictatorship to a democracy, trouble is they don't seem to have done anything as yet.
> You are the moderator if there are any of my posts you aren't happy with simply delete them, We have covered a lot in this thread, gay marriage, objective 2 of the ALP, Royal Commission, even Obama managed a look in, racism, Nordic Socialism, oh I almost forgot Bronwyn Bishop.



Why would I delete your posts? That would be an abuse of moderator powers. You have the right to discuss politics, even if I disagree. There's been no guideline breach from you that I'm aware of.

I'm arguing here as a member, not a moderator and I hope no mod ever starts deleting posts they don't like due to political stance.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/8/15)

gee that would really get them going haha.
"See! The bloody socialist propaganda machine is at work!"


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

Poor Tony, makes another gaffe labeling the opposition racists over the lies about ChAFTA, when are people going to stop throwing the word racist around, Black Bess, Dick Turpins Legendary horse now known as Bess, the Black Prince does he now have to be called Prince, and calling an Irishman Paddy is racist, it is farcical and getting right out of hand.
Its like living in a comedy sketch, I wonder what would happen if you said the word Jehovah?


----------



## seamad (21/8/15)

Like most of the information in your posts, Black Bess is a fiction .
Turpin became a legend after his death. His story became linked in print with a legendary ride from London to York to establish an alibi, a tale previously attributed to the highwayman William Nevison. This fictional version was further established when it was included in an 1834 bestseller called Rockwood, in which the author Harrison Ainsworth added a new twist: that Turpin’s horse, Black Bess, expired at York after the record-breaking ride. None of this was true.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

Hence the use of the phrase, 'Legendary horse Black Bess' of course it isn't true, Noddy is also fiction but the word golliwog is also a racial slur in the UK and here in Australia.


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

Funny how it's only ever white blokes crying about not being able to use the word 'nigger'' anymore.


----------



## seamad (21/8/15)

Black Bess, Dick Turpins Legendary horse now known as Bess


Everything I've seen refers to the horse as Black Bess, can you point out where it's now called only Bess ?


----------



## JDW81 (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> Funny how it's only ever white blokes crying about not being able to use the word 'nigger'' anymore.


And only white people who say that the booing of Adam Goodes isn't racially oriented....

Time for a beer.

JD


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

I doubt whether anyone would be crying over that, no one I know anyway, though funnily enough it is allowed in artistic performances.


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> Funny how it's only ever white blokes crying about not being able to use the word 'nigger'' anymore.


Quentin Tarantino uses it so gratuitously in his movies it would make Ice T blush. But I guarantee if ENIMEM used it in a rap he's be crucified. Why the double standard? 
He's crying all the way to the bank.


----------



## Vini2ton (21/8/15)

Worked in a desert communitiy in NT for a while and a new teacher arrived who had a labrador called Blackie. Fair fucken dinkum.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

Buddy Franklin has a nasty habit of going into tackles late and wiping out players, if hypothetically he was booed for the said offence are the booers racist?

Seamad, I read it about 6 months ago when a list of unacceptable words were printed out, black board was in that list, it said it was now to be called chalk board manticle said he checked that out and it was not true but I haven't checked that as in the original post I made I put down white board.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> the Black Prince does he now have to be called Prince,


Well...he is still black....not sure what he likes to be called now


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

Yes it is correct about blackboard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/1988952.stm


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Quentin Tarantino uses it so gratuitously in his movies it would make Ice T blush. But I guarantee if ENIMEM used it in a rap he's be crucified. Why the double standard?
> He's crying all the way to the bank.


Well...it would not be a Tarantino movie without the use of nearly every offensive remark known to ( white ) man


----------



## seamad (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yes it is correct about blackboard.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/1988952.stm


linked article, no mention of blackboard ?

*Home Office minister John Denham has been criticised by the police for using the phrase "nitty gritty" because of race relations rules.* 
Mr Denham used the phrase during a debate at the Police Federation conference in Bournemouth. 
He was told that police officers could face disciplinary charges for saying "nitty gritty" because it dates from the slavery era. 
Some rank-and-file officers say the rules about language have become "a minefield" and have made them inhibited in doing their job. 
*Has political correctness gone mad? How much care should be taken by police over language?*


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Buddy Franklin has a nasty habit of going into tackles late and wiping out players, if hypothetically he was booed for the said offence are the booers racist?
> 
> Seamad, I read it about 6 months ago when a list of unacceptable words were printed out, black board was in that list, it said it was now to be called chalk board manticle said he checked that out and it was not true but I haven't checked that as in the original post I made I put down white board.



The thing I don't understand is how many hurt feelings reports get submitted every time someone uses the word 'racist'. Presumably it's because it is considered a derogatory term but it's just a word. Nothing happens if someone calls you a racist. You don't get leprosy or the mumps. If you can't handle the implications of a simple word like that, maybe reconsider why so many other simple words, often used in a derogatory context and with a history of general unpleasantness attached, including extreme violence and hatred are not welcomed by others.

As for the Adam Goodes thing (getting dull now) - how many people have suggested it was because he pointed to a 13 year old spectator and shamed her when she used racially charged language? It has racial motivations - it's hard to argue with that. Were people booing before that event on this level?


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

From wikipedia:


False accusations[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
See also: Loony left
In the United States, left forces of "political correctness" have been blamed for actions largely carried out by right-wing groups, with _Time_ citing campaigns against violence on network television as contributing to a "mainstream culture [which] has become cautious, sanitized, scared of its own shadow" because of "the watchful eye of the p.c. police", even though protests and advertiser boycotts targeting TV shows are generally organized by right-wing religious groups campaigning against violence, sex, and depictions of homosexuality on television.[40]
In the United Kingdom, some newspapers reported that a school had altered the nursery rhyme "Baa Baa Black Sheep" to read "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep".[41] But it was later reported that in fact the Parents and Children Together (PACT) nursery had the children "turn the song into an action rhyme.... They sing happy, sad, bouncing, hopping, pink, blue, black and white sheep etc."[42] This nursery rhyme story was widely circulated and later extended to suggest that other language bans applied to the terms "black coffee" and "blackboard".[43] The _Private Eye_ magazine reported that similar stories, had been published in the British press since _The Sun_ first ran them in 1986.[44] See also Baa Baa White Sheep.


----------



## seamad (21/8/15)

manticle, you're probably aware of it, but mona got a bit of a story in that lefty publication today
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/aug/21/mona-is-my-generations-sydney-opera-house-a-gamble-that-paid-off


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yes it is correct about blackboard.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/1988952.stm



Wrong article maybe? Or did you read someone's comments below and presume that was news?


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

Thanks Seamad.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (21/8/15)

I do remember from my time in the Armed Forces when I was an instructor in electronics when we were no longer allowed to use the word "blackboard". A whiteboard was fine as was chalkboard. It seems one way traffic these days.( copied from link)

I definitely wouldn't be offended about being called a racist if not true, nor would I get mumps, but people do get highly offended and hurt by being called racist unjustly because some people like to call others racist, why, maybe it makes them feel superior being up there on that moral high horse, I don't know.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

I am not racist. I just hate everyone equally.


----------



## goomboogo (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I am not racist. I just hate everyone equally.


I have had my shyness misinterpreted as misanthropy.


----------



## seamad (21/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> I have had my shyness misinterpreted as misanthropy.


reminds me of visiting london in the punk late 70's as a kid, saw a bit of graffiti.. The meek shall inherit the earth, to which some wit had added..if that's alright with the rest of us.
I'm sure it wasn't that original but it's stuck in my memory.


----------



## jlm (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> Funny how it's only ever white blokes crying about not being able to use the word 'nigger'' anymore.


Lief was much easier when the the person making the racial slur decided whether it was racist or not.


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I am not racist. I just hate everyone equally.


I was once called a specist by a vegan. Told the guy to go **** himself. I sure outwitted him.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> I was once called a specist by a vegan. Told the guy to go **** himself. I sure outwitted him.


I just googled that....my head is still spinning...fucked if I can work out what its supposed to mean

What ever happened to just calling someone a fuckwitt or a dickhead


----------



## spog (21/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> I was once called a specist by a vegan. Told the guy to go **** himself. I sure outwitted him.


I must be a racist specist because I fckn hate the blackbirds demolishing my vegie patch.
The little feather feckers.


----------



## goomboogo (21/8/15)

This is a transcript of an actual conversation.

Person 1 (Vegan): You are murdering animals by eating that. How can you live with yourself knowing an animal died just so you could eat that?
Person 2 (Me): What about your leather boots?
Person 1 (Vegan): But the cow knows I'm trying.
Person 3 (Bystander): No it doesn't. Because it's dead and it died just so you could have those boots.


----------



## jlm (21/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> This is a transcript of an actual conversation.
> 
> Person 1 (Vegan): You are murdering animals by eating that. How can you live with yourself knowing an animal died just so you could eat that?
> Person 2 (Me): What about your leather boots?
> ...



Really? Totally 100% for reals person 2 was you? Can you provide some context as to how this exchange happened?


----------



## goomboogo (21/8/15)

Whilst being served a hamburger at a workplace canteen.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

Just as long as no one mentions Tofu....


We dont want to go there...

I would rather listen to WEAL bang on about how great the LNP are than have Tofu mentioned here


----------



## jlm (21/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Whilst being served a hamburger at a workplace canteen.


Was the vegan working there and hanging shit on everyone? Or did they target you in particular?


----------



## Danscraftbeer (21/8/15)

spog said:


> I must be a racist specist because I fckn hate the blackbirds demolishing my vegie patch.
> The little feather feckers.


Those feckers are taring my birdnets apart the friggin little feckers. The frequent recent incidents of me freeing them from the enclosure they just take me as a chump after all the efforts I took to keep them out. Just what do we have to do? Cages over everything?

Off Topic? I don't think so.


----------



## goomboogo (21/8/15)

jlm said:


> Was the vegan working there and hanging shit on everyone? Or did they target you in particular?


She'd worked in the place for a couple weeks. She'd said similar things on a few occasions to different people. I wasn't the first and I wasn't the last. She only worked there for about a month.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)




----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

This thread really does cover everything doesn't it.


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

Just to put a spanner in the stereotype, most vegoes and vegans that I know are less likely to try and convince others they're making the wrong dietary choice than the other way round.


----------



## seamad (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> This thread really does cover everything doesn't it.


not weal-y
vegans..


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

And bacon.


----------



## Lemon (21/8/15)

I think we have to fundamentally overhaul our method of democracy. We no longer need the parliamentary variety.
Historically we have elected a local person we know, whose values equate with our own. At least that's how my old man did it. Then that person voted in parliament according to those values.
I heard recently that some MP was looked down upon for not checking with their constituents about how they should vote on an issue. This is worthy of an interesting debate on how elected representatives should operate.

My long winded point being... We could do all of this with a smartphone app.
Same sex marriage ..... Yes, no,abstain
Raise gst yes, no, abstain,

No expensive parliament or MPs, no elections, downside, no BBQ or lamington stalls.

Not interested, don't download the app

Something for everyone

Lemon


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> Just to put a spanner in the stereotype, most vegoes and vegans that I know are less likely to try and convince others they're making the wrong dietary choice than the other way round.


Ease up there Mants... calling someone a vego could be thought of as ....well..... I am not sure of the term but, I am sure you get labeled it. Pretty sure that vego is not politically correct


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

I don't get labelled it because of all the bacon, roo, wallaby, lamb shanks, sausages, pork chops, t-bone steak and seafood I eat.

Otherwise I know what you mean.*

*Actually I don't.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (21/8/15)

How, on earth (here in Aus) can raising the gst be good. Its just a sign that we are fucked? On the current path. Isn't it?


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> ... but people do get highly offended and hurt by being called racist unjustly because some people like to call others racist, why, maybe it makes them feel superior being up there on that moral high horse, I don't know.


Or because they exhibit, consciously or unconsciously, racially vilifying behaviour and get upset when someone calls them on it? They want the right to be a racist but not get told they are. Same for all forms of bigotry. 

Really the most precious people seem to be the ones who want to dish out the insults but never expect to cop one back. Typical behaviour of most bullies incidentally.


----------



## SBOB (21/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> How, on earth (here in Aus) can raising the gst be good. Its just a sign that we are fucked? On the current path. Isn't it?


if its raised without re-adjusting or correcting other taxes, then yes... we are 'fucked'

but when it comes to tax reform, no one in government seems to have the balls to actually make decisions


----------



## SBOB (21/8/15)

Lemon said:


> My long winded point being... We could do all of this with a smartphone app.
> Same sex marriage ..... Yes, no,abstain
> Raise gst yes, no, abstain,
> 
> ...


just because an opinion is 'popular' doesn't make it the right one... thats the only slightly 'minor' flaw in that idea


----------



## Lemon (21/8/15)

Less flawed than the current system? I think not. 
Do the incumbents, and as discussed, the pond scum that the gravy train attracts, vote on ideas, concepts, processes, because they are "right", or because they are popular and will get them Re-elected?
I'd say that we have a greater chance of getting the right result purely because the persons in the street are deciding on the issues.

More than once in this thread, it has been stated, they we are happy to pay more tax in order to get better services, to use an example. But the current system, means that the squeaky wheel, lobbyists, get the grease.

Oh yeah, let's stick with the current system, it gets the right result.


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

All well and good except occasionally I despair that the average person is actually dumb as dogshit.

Still - constituents are supposed to be represented in a democracy and a bit of conversation never hurt.


----------



## Lemon (21/8/15)

Yes, a friend of mine says,
Remember half of the populations have below average intelligence and we make them vote.

Do you think that if we had voluntary voting, we would get more intelligent, or more biased, more interested, or "better" voters?

Or is that everybody voting, is a strength of our system?



Edit:spelling


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

SBOB said:


> if its raised without re-adjusting or correcting other taxes, then yes... we are 'fucked'
> 
> but when it comes to tax reform, *no one in government seems to have the balls to actually make decisions*


Thats exactly right. Lets extend the federal election cycle to a decade and see what happens. Seriously.


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

Voluntary voting is a major reason total arseholes get airtime in the US and the underprivileged are badly represented.

Not sure what the answer is. I don't think our system is particularly bad per se - just the range of personnel choices and the media influence on voters that could do with a shakeup.


----------



## Lemon (21/8/15)

Both the U.S. And UK have voluntary voting, with both having different outcomes, ie on the surface the UK appears to have better little people protections.
Not saying one is better than The other, just different. Well I am saying one is better than the other.

I feel that the compulsory voting process is a better one. 

How do we change the process whereby the people who want to be representatives are the ones least suitableto?

How do we put the "right" people for the task in the job, and let them do it? Because they don't want it now.


----------



## goomboogo (21/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Thats exactly right. Lets extend the federal election cycle to a decade and see what happens. Seriously.


10 year fixed terms would be better than the 3 year, an election could be called anytime cycle we have now. I would like to see the House of Representatives go to fixed 6 year terms and full Senate elections be held at the same time.


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

**** ten years. Give them 3 months probation like a lot of workplaces. Perform or you're out, no pension till you serve a full term.


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> 10 year fixed terms would be better than the 3 year, an election could be called anytime cycle we have now. I would like to see the House of Representatives go to fixed 6 year terms and full Senate elections be held at the same time.


If you look at the drive train - 10 years / bumper to bumper - 5 years warranty on a Hyundai, those figures are pretty much on par. 

did I mention I just got home from the pub?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/8/15)

Yeah maybe not 10 year terms but I'm all in favour for some long term policy formulation. The Howard/Rudd/Gillard/Abbott era had been pretty divisive and bereft of long term goals (either by lack of vision or by being hamstrung by popularists). Siiigh.


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

Full term = 6 years.
Three months and six months probation.
After that the possibility of election yearly but no pension until full term in office completed.

Or people stop being individualistic, self serving arseholes.


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

manticle said:


> **** ten years. Give them 3 months probation like a lot of workplaces. Perform or you're out, no pension till you serve a full term.


Probation? A bunch of sycophants getting their work marked by a bunch of incumbents? Wheres ******* Don Chipp when you need him?


----------



## manticle (21/8/15)

In my system, I'm doing the marking.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (21/8/15)

Get yourselves on the ballat doods I'de vote for you. :beerbang:


----------



## Brew Forky (21/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wonder what would happen if you said the word Jehovah?


Can I get a witness!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZMX_57pExs


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

Yeah he seems pretty impartial and says **** a bit so I'm happy to go along. 
It takes more than that to win the heart of the Aussie voter though..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGgz9j7DsqM


----------



## Dave70 (21/8/15)

Brew Forky said:


> Can I get a witness!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZMX_57pExs


_Yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaa_ c'mon now!!


----------



## Black Devil Dog (22/8/15)

manticle said:


> Funny how it's only ever white blokes crying about not being able to use the word 'nigger'' anymore.


Funnier how it's mostly black people who use the word and white people who are most offended by it.


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

Not really if you look at history of its use and people reclaiming insults like poof, dyke, nigger or fag.

Not really at all.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (22/8/15)

Change the thread title for crying out loud.


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

To: politics, bacon, sport, bigotry, helicopters and biscuit tins?


----------



## Black Devil Dog (22/8/15)

Don't see too many white people sobbing that they can't call someone a nigger any more. However, just about every rap song has it in the lyrics.

"Reclaiming insults" as you call it, seems to have empowered the crack dealing, bitch raping, cop killing, mutha *******, 'nigga', hip hop 'artists' who seem to be the only ones using the term nowadays.

More power to them I say.


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

Yep. That's a great summary of the reclamation of derogatory terms. Nothing stereotypical whacked in for convenience, no sir.

I know I should do better but it's late, I'm tired and I feel intelligent people should be able to use critical thinking to work this out for themselves without hands being held.

You work out why it's ok for an italian to use the word wog with some affection but not so great coming from me unless he's my best mate.


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

I'm sure you listen to heaps of rap.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (22/8/15)

manticle said:


> Nothing stereotypical whacked in for convenience, no sir.


You've nailed it. 

That's exactly what they do.


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

Who's this ubiquitous 'they' then?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/15)

I wish you could still buy biscuits in tins. Life would be so much calmer


----------



## wide eyed and legless (22/8/15)

manticle said:


> **** ten years. Give them 3 months probation like a lot of workplaces. Perform or you're out, no pension till you serve a full term.


Probationary work terms don't work like that any more, I had to front the Fair Work Commission over just that, you can't just give someone a week in lieu and tell them to **** off, the commission decides what they get and how nicely you have to say **** off.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (22/8/15)

Brew Forky said:


> Can I get a witness!


I was thinking more along these lines for saying Jehovah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5YU_spBw0


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Don't see too many white people sobbing that they can't call someone a nigger any more. However, just about every rap song has it in the lyrics.
> 
> "Reclaiming insults" as you call it, seems to have empowered the crack dealing, bitch raping, cop killing, mutha *******, 'nigga', hip hop 'artists' who seem to be the only ones using the term nowadays.
> 
> More power to them I say.





manticle said:


> Yep. That's a great summary of the reclamation of derogatory terms. Nothing stereotypical whacked in for convenience, no sir.
> 
> I know I should do better but it's late, I'm tired and I feel intelligent people should be able to use critical thinking to work this out for themselves without hands being held.
> 
> You work out why it's ok for an italian to use the word wog with some affection but not so great coming from me unless he's my best mate.





manticle said:


> I'm sure you listen to heaps of rap.





Black Devil Dog said:


> You've nailed it.
> 
> That's exactly what they do.





manticle said:


> Who's this ubiquitous 'they' then?


BDD:


----------



## warra48 (22/8/15)

Lemon said:


> Remember half of the populations have below average intelligence and we make them vote.


Not quite true, in fact.
It's more than half who are below the average, simply because the highly intelligent are often well above the average, and it takes a lot more of the below average numbnuts to balance that out.
There's your explanation of how the pollies get elected and largely get away with what they do.


----------



## Dave70 (22/8/15)

manticle said:


> Who's this ubiquitous 'they' then?


Enough here for ten rappers and a Tarantino movie. Almost. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqJJtIFuLTg

_Cashin seven digit cheques an still breakin necks!.._word..


----------



## goomboogo (22/8/15)

warra48 said:


> Not quite true, in fact.
> It's more than half who are below the average, simply because the highly intelligent are often well above the average, and it takes a lot more of the below average numbnuts to balance that out.
> There's your explanation of how the pollies get elected and largely get away with what they do.


That depends on whether you use mean or median to determine the average. Are you suggesting politicians are highly intelligent? Although rat cunning does require some intellect, it doesn't require the individual to be highly intelligent. Many of our current politicians can't even get it right when trying to be a cunning rat.

Or, are you suggesting it's us dimwitted numbnuts of the general populace who are too stupid to stop politicians turning politics into a farce?


----------



## Black Devil Dog (22/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> BDD:
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1440194187.068590.jpg


Naggers. Yep they sure as shit annoy me.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (22/8/15)

Who left the high stable door open?


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Enough here for ten rappers and a Tarantino movie. Almost.
> 
> 
> 
> _Cashin seven digit cheques an still breakin necks!.._word..



What is detective Fin up to these days?


----------



## seamad (22/8/15)

Going to be sad to see him go when snot moralsnone does him in, so much material, so many good cartoons...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> That depends on whether you use mean or median to determine the average. Are you suggesting politicians are highly intelligent? Although rat cunning does require some intellect, it doesn't require the individual to be highly intelligent. Many of our current politicians can't even get it right when trying to be a cunning rat.
> 
> Or, are you suggesting it's us dimwitted numbnuts of the general populace who are too stupid to stop politicians turning politics into a farce?


I think the whole problem is that Joe Public is so jaded with the whole political sphere that they just dont give a ****. They know at the end of the day a politician will get voted in and do the same thing as the last one.

When it comes election time it just ends up a wall of "Blah Blah Blah" from side A and "Blah Blah Blah" from side B

Any wonder why voters just walk into the polling booth and go **** it and draw a flaccid penis on the ballot paper


----------



## manticle (22/8/15)

If any bit of that penis gets in a box (not a fun box) it counts as a vote.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/15)

manticle said:


> If any bit of that penis gets in a box (not a fun box) it counts as a vote.


I think you actually have to put a number ...otherwise its classed as a defaced ballot paper

But I could be wrong

*What makes a vote invalid?*
The term 'informal' is used for votes which will not be counted because the ballot paper was filled out incorrectly. If you write your name on the ballot paper, it will not be counted. You are free to write comments, but the intention of your vote must be clear - so if you use ticks or crosses instead of numbers, or draw confusing diagrams, you vote will be disallowed.


----------



## Lemon (22/8/15)

warra48 said:


> Not quite true, in fact.
> It's more than half who are below the average, simply because the highly intelligent are often well above the average, and it takes a lot more of the below average numbnuts to balance that out.
> There's your explanation of how the pollies get elected and largely get away with what they do.


Oh don't worry Warra, there are more than enough super below average numnuts to balance out the high intelligence above average population. In fact, it all averages out in the end....hahahahaha

With the size of the population, ie sample size, for a characteristic such as intelligence, say IQ, the distribution is very normal and so you'd have to have a large number of people with an IQ of seriously high range to affect the average significantly.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (23/8/15)

If I don't vote for the lizards, the wrong lizard will get in


----------



## goomboogo (23/8/15)

This guy says there are alternatives to voting for a lizard.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

Lemon said:


> Yes, a friend of mine says,
> Remember half of the population have below average intelligence and we make them vote.


Well if we didn't let them vote, how the hell we would we get the entertainment value, if not the economic value, of a Labor Party never getting to be in the driving seat


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Its sad that we have this lying autocratic mob in. There definatly is nthing funny about the LNP...


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

I wouldn't call Tony Abbott an autocrat, he just isn't strong enough, and your right stu there is nothing funny about the LNP just as there is nothing funny about the ALP, discounting of course Sam Dastyari, but look at the entertainment value you've had in the last 500+ posts.


----------



## manticle (23/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I think you actually have to put a number ...otherwise its classed as a defaced ballot paper
> 
> But I could be wrong
> 
> ...


Glad I got that wrong


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wouldn't call Tony Abbott an autocrat,


Seriously....


----------



## Bridges (23/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wouldn't call Tony Abbott an autocrat,


And so the famous "captains calls" he's made are what type of decision.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

Definitely not an autocrat, otherwise he wouldn't back down. Call him by any other name but not an autocrat.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

You honestly think he is backing down. He is playing the political field, but I doubt he will back down unless he knows its going to **** him up

Told his cabinet that if anyone crossed the floor over same sex marriage they would be sacked.

Doesnt sound like a man who is backing down to me


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

Tanya Plibersek also warned anyone who crossed the floor to vote with LNP would be sacked, doesn't make her an autocrat, they're not going to take them outside and have them shot


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Still makes him an autocrat,


----------



## manticle (23/8/15)

He might have some autocratic tendencies but he can't be described as an autocrat because our parliamentary system simply doesn't allow it. Autocracy is an absolute political system with no external arbritration. He's still a stupid, lizardman though.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

He is autocratic within his party

And he tries damn hard to be that outside the party as well


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I agree with you contrarian it is much harder to succeed than someone who went to a private school and had family wealth behind them but it is those who are less privileged who have a greater will to succeed, and that will make all the difference. When you haven't had everything given to you on a plate you will work a lot harder.
> 
> Tony Liberatore was booed, especially by Richmond supporters, but I doubt it was anything to do with him being from Maltese stock, more about his actions on the ground, same as Kyrgios in Canada for his actions on the court.
> 
> I read this week that a man was fined in the UK, 280 pounds with 100 pounds compensation for calling an Irishman Paddy, I checked in the Oxford dictionary sure enough Paddy is no longer an affectionate word for Patrick but is now a racial slur, I expect it will be the same for Taffy and Jock.



Agree totally, the real question here is who actually determined that 'Paddy' is derogatory? That is the scary bit.


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> WEAL, do you believe the ALP of 2015 is a socialist organisation? It seems a very difficult proposition to argue when they ascribe to the same neo-liberal economic principles as the LNP. For that matter, the vast majority of governments around the world follow the same economic doctrine.


VERY ******* SCARY!!! And it will not matter which particular party in each of these govts. gains power as at the very heart of it none of them will have any real say in the direction we are being taken where financial policy and practice are concerned.


----------



## manticle (23/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> He is autocratic within his party
> 
> And he tries damn hard to be that outside the party as well


As I say - autocratic tendencies maybe and if our system allowed it, I'm sure he and many others would embrace it. To be honest I think both Howard and Rudd were probably worse. Tony is just a goose. Our system would need to be subverted or overthrown for true autocracy to govern, something I am actually grateful for.


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Ho Ho ho.
> Looks like Kathy Jackson et al are not the only ones prone to dipping their hands in the cookie jar.
> http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/victorian-liberal-party-probes-missing-millions-20150819-gj3akk.html


Wonder if he applied the sniff test?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Agree totally, the real question here is who actually determined that 'Paddy' is derogatory? That is the scary bit.


Oxford dictionary?


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> this seems to be the real issue in this country. I'd guess that most people are in this boat, but just don't trust our elected representatives to... represent us.
> 
> EDIT: shit, we almost got back to the original topic there!


We have no reason whatsoever to trust the 'them'......


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Agree with you Dave we only pay a 2% levy for medicare as opposed to 8% in Denmark and still we complained when Abbott wanted a levy to visit the doctor. My current treatment is costing $10,000 / month, for 2 years or till I fall off the perch or recover, luckily I got on a world wide trial where 360 of us get the drug for free. Seeing all the young cancer patients is truly depressing I would also pay more tax and like to see which ever government is in power to use the tax dollars more efficiently.
> 
> `For this years top of the charts for Economic freedom Australia came in at 4th Denmark 11th Sweden 23rd Iceland 26th and Iceland 27th


Wasn't aware of your circumstances WEAL, really hope it works out well for you mate.


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

RobW said:


> Love the smell of hairspray in the morning



Alll paid for by the taxpayer.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

Our system would need to be subverted or overthrown for true autocracy to govern, something I am actually grateful for.
Hear Hear, I doubt we would be having this conversation if we were in North Korea and discussing Kim Jong Un he has people put against the wall and shot just as a show of power and for the hell of it, didn't he have half of the Nth Korean Brass Band executed for a show of power. That is true autocracy, pity Tony can't do something similar with some of those who go on The X Factor including the judges, just the promo's for it gives me the shits.


----------



## manticle (23/8/15)

Hey we agree on something. Death to the x-factor.


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> If I don't vote for the lizards, the wrong lizard will get in



Trouble is, you're still gonna get a 'any of numerous scaly reptiles of the suborder Sauria, order Squamata, typically having a moderately elongate body, a tapering tail, and two pairs of legs held outward from the body, comprising mostly terrestrial and burrowing species'.


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Oh no, you just went and added another 15 pages. h34r:



Had just hit Fernvale yesterday on the wayt back to Brissie, mobile reception kicks in, and read this thread with screen showing page 17/27. Pissed myself laughing!

Give me a bit of grace with the s[plurge of posts, just finished sharing a couple of beers (triple dunkel, my coffee RIS, a generously supplied smaple of a couple single malts one of which hit the 60% mark) with a fellow AHB'er, and a scrolling mouse which kept hitting posts which grabbed my attention.

So ******* there!!!

Done!!!


----------



## madpierre06 (23/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Oxford dictionary?



Yes, but an (or some) actual human/s still kake the decision.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

I thought it was humans who wrote the Oxford Dictionary


----------



## manticle (23/8/15)

The oxford dictionary describing it as a racial slur doesn't mean its use has been legislated against.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (23/8/15)

It does if a man got fined.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Where the hell is that biscuit tin....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Our system would need to be subverted or overthrown for true autocracy to govern, something I am actually grateful for.
> y, pity Tony can't do something similar with some of those who go on The X Factor including the judges, just the promo's for it gives me the shits.


and dont forget The Voice...and those bloody cooking shows...

We have some common ground WEAL B)


----------



## Black Devil Dog (23/8/15)




----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Its all that Ice they have been using. They should stop paying them so much on the dole, then they wont be able to afford ice. Then they will have teeth.

But unable to afford a dentist being on the dole so there teeth will go bad..


----------



## Dave70 (24/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its sad that we have this lying autocratic mob in.





wide eyed and legless said:


> autocrat,





wide eyed and legless said:


> autocrat, autocrat.





Ducatiboy stu said:


> Still makes him an autocrat,





manticle said:


> autocratic tendencies Autocracy


Pardon me lads, I thought I heard my name mentioned.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (24/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its all that Ice they have been using. They should stop paying them so much on the dole, then they wont be able to afford ice. Then they will have teeth.
> 
> But unable to afford a dentist being on the dole so there teeth will go bad..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5p7lDEHjq4


----------



## RobW (24/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Buddy Franklin has a nasty habit of going into tackles late and wiping out players, if hypothetically he was booed for the said offence are the booers racist?


Not if he was booed for what he did and it stopped there.
Yes if he was booed ever time he went on the ground irrespective of what he'd done.

Adam Goodes is booed for what he is, not what he does on the ground.
That's racist.


----------



## manticle (24/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It does if a man got fined.


Which man? I can't find a reference to anyone being fined for using the term.

Not saying it didn't happen but are you sure it's not just another urban myth like blackboard and baa baa rainbow sheep?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (24/8/15)

No urban myth, absolutely true even got a 12 week prison sentence suspended for 2 years.
http://www.dover-express.co.uk/Neighbour-row-pensioner-fears-abuse-continue/story-27505477-detail/story.html


----------



## Dave70 (24/8/15)

RobW said:


> Adam Goodes is booed for what he is,


And thats an elite level athlete boasting a 6"4', 100 kg frame. 
How many of these fat pisshead sheep do you imagine would approach Goodes in the carpark and boo him within striking distance? About ******* zero would be my guess. 
They know, no matter what, Goodes isn't about to jump the fence and claw is way through the crowd to **** your shit up under the the all seeing eye of media networks and a million smartphones. 
Cowardice and racism pretty much two sides of the same coin in my book. At least in the intellectual sense.


----------



## Dave70 (24/8/15)

Unlike Barry hall. 
Who likely would jump the fence to hit someone. 

What, _me_??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bylIEK0FM4A


----------



## wobbly (24/8/15)

Back to the "nose in the trough pollies" I see Tony Burke has been stumping up over 2.2 million in travel expenses since mid 2008 to that add the "other" expenditure such as office fit outs etc then the figure becomes something like 4.6 million

Wobbly


----------



## wide eyed and legless (24/8/15)

Never abuse anybody with one eyebrow.Especially a Frenchman.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (24/8/15)

RobW said:


> Adam Goodes is booed for what he is, not what he does on the ground.
> That's racist.


An interesting article on the booing of Adam Goodes from another aboriginal Dallas Scott.
http://theblacksteamtrain.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/the-wayland-smithers-school-of.html?m=1


----------



## manticle (24/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> No urban myth, absolutely true even got a 12 week prison sentence suspended for 2 years.
> http://www.dover-express.co.uk/Neighbour-row-pensioner-fears-abuse-continue/story-27505477-detail/story.html


You must be reading different articles. Nothing in there about fining someone for using the word paddy to describe an irishman, nothing about freedom of speech incursion, everything about long term alcohol fuelled verbal abuse.


----------



## RobW (24/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Never abuse anybody with one eyebrow.Especially a Frenchman.


Or John Bourke


----------



## wide eyed and legless (24/8/15)

manticle said:


> You must be reading different articles. Nothing in there about fining someone for using the word paddy to describe an irishman, nothing about freedom of speech incursion, everything about long term alcohol fuelled verbal abuse.


Obviously a conviction for racially aggravated harassment means he racially taunted him, here is another article.Next to last sentence. 

Langley told the court that he did not think the word 'Paddy' was racist, but that he will now 'take note' that it is.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3183942/Dover-pensioner-80-banned-speaking-neighbour-75.html


----------



## malt and barley blues (24/8/15)

RobW said:


> Or John Bourke


What a dick head.


----------



## manticle (24/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Obviously a conviction for racially aggravated harassment means he racially taunted him, here is another article.Next to last sentence.
> 
> Langley told the court that he did not think the word 'Paddy' was racist, but that he will now 'take note' that it is.
> 
> ...


He didn't get fines just for using the word Paddy and it's disingenuous to suggest he did. I'm sure he said and did more than that in 5 years.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (24/8/15)

He didn't just get fined he got a 12 week jail sentence as well, suspended for 2 years, of course you wouldn't get that for just saying Paddy, if he hadn't mentioned Paddy in the tirade it would have just been a lesser charge of offensive behavior, and the magistrate had obviously told him that Paddy was a racial slur,( as it is under the racial and religious hatred act )
otherwise he wouldn't have replied that he did not think the word 'Paddy' was racist but he will now take note that it is.

The same laws apply here.


----------



## technobabble66 (24/8/15)

FWIW, there's a investigative piece on Big Bad Billy Shorten on 4 Corners right now on ABC.
Looks like it might be interesting. Touches on the control the unions have over the ALP by the sound of it.
We'll see....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/8/15)

Finally found my biscuit tin


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> FWIW, there's a investigative piece on Big Bad Billy Shorten on 4 Corners right now on ABC.
> Looks like it might be interesting. Touches on the control the unions have over the ALP by the sound of it.
> We'll see....


Can see Tony sitting in front of the TV watching the ABC thinking " Thank You ABC..."


----------



## technobabble66 (24/8/15)

Meh - not too condemning. Basically made him out to be a somewhat shifty guy hell bent on power and the bunfight required to get it. Seems about normal for the current political climate.

Yet again, Martin Ferguson comes out looking like a vaguely decent kinda guy with some concept of what might be better for Australia; rather than the rest of the goons from both sides that just worry about what's best for them or their mates. Sad day when he walked out; and a poor indictment on the ALP how they've turned on him.

I gotta admit, Eric Abetz is one creepy guy. He really freaks me out.
Just such a truly average person whose only saving grace is also what makes him so scary - he clearly, fervently believes the zealous crap he is shovelling.
Australian politics will be better for the absence of extreme bias from people like him.

He must've pinched himself when 4 Corners asked him to express his opinion of Bill Shorten.

Hey i just realised Bill Shorten's initials are BS (Yeah, i know, I'm a bit slow). Doesn't bode well for a politician. Or maybe that means he's well qualified!


----------



## manticle (24/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Finally found my biscuit tin


Hope there's fuckin' biscuits in there. I'd murder a blind, deaf negroid paddy mcskip pom for a monte carlo or one of those dark, almost black tim tams.

Although a golden gaytime would also go down a treat.

For the record WEAL, I'm an anarcho-individualistic libertarian with optimistic nihilist tendencies and I thoroughly support anyone's right to be a racist arsehole in verbal or written communication.
The same communication can and should be used to rebut, rejoinder and debate all unintelligent behaviour. Communication, rather than legislation. It can also be used simply to remind some people of the racist arseholes they really are. The fact that Andrew Bolt somehow seems genuinely hurt when someone suggests he is a racist is almost as hilarious as the fact he believes his politics are moderate or only slightly right of centre. Legislation used against these kinds of people just provides excuses for martydom.

That said, I've not been a target of racial abuse. I might feel differently if I had been.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

I thought that Bill came out of that pretty poorly, I wonder how many workers have been at the shitty end of Bills negotiating stick, now we know why his nickname is 'Slippery Shorten'
Agree with you technobabble, it seemed Martin Ferguson was the only one who knew what was going on behind the scenes, he is right the union movement does have to much power over the ALP, and he is all for the Royal Commission. I liked the comment at the end about the union candidates in the ALP, where he said they sit around waiting for the for the phone to ring so the union can tell them what to do.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-24/martin-ferguson-talks-union-influence-over-labor-party/6717642


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Can see WEAL sitting in front of the TV watching the ABC thinking " Thank You ABC..."


FTFY


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

manticle said:


> For the record WEAL, I'm an anarcho-individualistic libertarian with optimistic nihilist tendencies and I thoroughly support anyone's right to be a racist arsehole in verbal or written communication.
> The same communication can and should be used to rebut, rejoinder and debate all unintelligent behaviour. Communication, rather than legislation. It can also be used simply to remind some people of the racist arseholes they really are. The fact that Andrew Bolt somehow seems genuinely hurt when someone suggests he is a racist is almost as hilarious as the fact he believes his politics are moderate or only slightly right of centre. Legislation used against these kinds of people just provides excuses for martydom.
> 
> That said, I've not been a target of racial abuse. I might feel differently if I had been.


Could you enlarge on the unintelligent behavior, second time I have seen you use it in this thread and other threads, is it when someone doesn't agree with your views?
And I will say that legislation is necessary above communication, there are those who will make racist slurs and they have to be taken to task.
Andrew Bolt will never be hurt after saying something he believes in, and when one does that in the public arena one has to accept the outcry which might follow. We all have the right to free speech and I exercise my right when I say I am not particularly keen on Afrikaans, I don't like their accents or what they stand for, and just because there is a mass exodus from South Africa to Australia doesn't mean they will change their beliefs,in saying this it doesn't mean that I am going to go out and racially vilify them.
Our debate on this (or these subjects) is meaningless and pointless, it is just a bit of fun and should be entered into with light hearted banter, with no personal attacks, no sniping snide remarks, I have mentioned before my skin is thick and any criticism aimed at me will have no effect, it is others who post on this site and come under criticism who may not have the same resolve as myself who I feel for.


----------



## manticle (25/8/15)

Re: unintelligent - I am referring to bigotry and prejudice which I regard as emotive, blind and irrational - thus unintelligent.

People very often disagree with me and many of them do so very intelligently.


----------



## Bribie G (25/8/15)

**** is this thread still going


----------



## dicko (25/8/15)

Bribie G said:


> **** is this thread still going


Round 3......

WEAL is up on points...... :lol: h34r:

and at one stage, many pages ago i unsubscribed. :lol:


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

You have to lighten up manticle, I have seen no evidence of bigatory or prejudice behavior in this thread, same thing happened in the Halal thread as well, to many people wanting to stand up and call racist, here is a part of the link I posted previously written by a very intelligent Aboriginal.

Of course, we have the regular roster of apologists come out, shaming the country and our society for cutting down a sports star who happens to have Aboriginal blood as part of his racial make-up. The caring, informed and sensitive city dwellers who, despite their alabaster skin tone and lack of racial diversity, can not only see, smell and hear racism, but tragically, are so deeply affected by it that they feel they must differentiate themselves from the white person next to them by pointing at them and screaming racist long enough and loud enough that somehow, somewhere in the midst of all their righteous shouting, their own skin tone will be forgotten or ignored. 

One thing I’ve come to understand about our society is that often, those who see themselves as the most tolerant, educated and enlightened are usually most racist, close-minded of all. These types were the first to pick up their keyboard or a microphone and declare that speaking negatively about the so-called ‘war dance’ effort from Adam Goodes over the weekend means that we are culturally ignorant, yet in making such a claim, have themselves ignored an entire segment of the Aboriginal community, who are appalled at the ‘performance’. In wanting us to be a homogenous community capable of only thinking and feeling one way, therefore enabling them to have the correct information and be ‘right’, they are guilty of the same crime they are continually accusing an entire nation of – RACISM.


----------



## Bridges (25/8/15)

dicko said:


> Round 3......
> 
> WEAL is up on *RELEVANT POINTS* h34r:
> :lol:
> and at one stage, many pages ago i unsubscribed. :lol:


Fixed...


----------



## Black Devil Dog (25/8/15)

The high horse needs a rest.


----------



## dicko (25/8/15)

Bridges said:


> Fixed...



:lol: :lol:


----------



## Vini2ton (25/8/15)

The ALP was created by the Union movement and is its political apparatus, despite what the spinners might want the man in the street to believe. Just as the LNP are the political ("lapdogs.. lickspittles..toadies.. lackies. get back down control yourself) apparatus of the business mogals. Both sides need to be assessed by the voter as to what they essentially stand for. Election policies are just a veneer. Murdoch muddies the waters of political analysis for the electorate and always has god bless him. I love this thread.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

You can't just single out Murdoch, what about Fairfax and the ABC, though I could have fallen off my chair watching how the ABC cut up our Billy Shorten last night.


----------



## goomboogo (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You can't just single out Murdoch, what about Fairfax and the ABC, though I could have fallen off my chair watching how the ABC cut up our Billy Shorten last night.


Do you really think they cut him up? There wasn't anything new. Bill Shorten's history is well known and I would have thought judgements of his character had already been made. I didn't see anything last night that would change my views of the man.



technobabble66 said:


> I gotta admit, Eric Abetz is one creepy guy. He really freaks me out.
> Just such a truly average person whose only saving grace is also what makes him so scary - he clearly, fervently believes the zealous crap he is shovelling.
> Australian politics will be better for the absence of extreme bias from people like him.


If he wasn't already creepy enough, they decided to interview him with light only on one side of his face. It made him look like Emperor Palpatine peering out from behind his cloak.


----------



## manticle (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You have to lighten up manticle, I have seen no evidence of bigatory or prejudice behavior in this thread, same thing happened in the Halal thread as well, to many people wanting to stand up and call racist


I'm at least as light hearted as you when discussing my thoughts and beliefs.

This thread has discussed racism and it's the behaviour and motivations itself I am referring to as unintelligent, not a specific poster in this thread. I don't actually find the tag 'racist' to be particularly useful unless followed up with some discussion and context. I wasn't calling you unintelligent if that's how you interpreted it. 

You're discussing from your perspective, me from mine. We'll probably never agree but that's ok. I have no fear that anyone will stop me saying big black dick any time soon though unless I ask someone at work if they'd like to eat one.

And yes I read the article. Good to get another perspective from someone informed and intelligent on the topic although I have an opposition to much of what it states and suggests. All I stated was that there were racial motivations behind the booing. Pretty sure I didn't call anyone a racist who says otherwise.


----------



## manticle (25/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> The high horse needs a rest.


So the smug donkey can have a trot?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

I need a biscuit and a cup of tea. B)


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

Just saying I was surprised at the ABC which usually shows only left wing views put him down the way they did, I was expecting a positive view of Shorten from the ABC not in the negative.

I don't care if you were calling me unintelligent, my scholarly successes were abysmal, the way you wrote unintelligent behavior twice in this thread does seem like it was pointed to another poster.

Whatever we say is not going to influence anyone in Canberra, as I said before these debates are meaningless, pointless and just fun.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You can't just single out Murdoch, what about Fairfax and the ABC, though I could have fallen off my chair watching how the ABC cut up our Billy Shorten last night.


You cant really put Fairfax and the ABC in the same league as Murdoch press rabble..

Sorry, but they are poles apart. Murdoch press are frothing at the mouth type gutter journalism


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Just saying I was surprised at the ABC which usually shows only left wing views put him down the way they did, I was expecting a positive view of Shorten from the ABC not in the negative.


You obviously dont realise just how partisan the ABC is. Yes the LNP froth at the mouth when the ABC has a go at them, but the silence is golden when they say nice things about the LNP


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

Same league, different divisions, each put their own view forward except the Murdoch is a bit closer to the truth than Fairfax.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Same league, different divisions, each put their own view forward except the Murdoch is a bit closer to the truth than Fairfax.


Now thats the funniest thing I have heard this year


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

The ABC believes that the ChAFTA is a negative move for Australia, even though Bob Carr says it should go ahead, then again the ABC and its followers also believe Harvey Norman really does give 2 years interest free


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Now thats the funniest thing I have heard this year


Don't get to hear too many comedy shows then stu?


----------



## manticle (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't care if you were calling me unintelligent, my scholarly successes were abysmal, the way you wrote unintelligent behavior twice in this thread does seem like it was pointed to another poster.


No specific poster, just a behaviour and its motivations.

And now I need a biscuit.
Dunked in whisky.


----------



## dicko (25/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Just another Patsy to appease the masses. It'll blow over in a few weeks once the media lets go of it. It's certainly not a party driven vilification. That would be a tad hypocritical.
> Anyway, there's more pressing issues. Would you believe there are white supremacists bumping AFL attendances just to boo Adam Goodes?


Just think....this topic could have ended right here after Camo's post, number 8 to be precise, but Nnnooo...... wee have had to go through....Ah you guys know what we are all being subject to.......politics on a home brewing forum....carry on fellows, we are all still listening. :lol:


----------



## Black Devil Dog (25/8/15)

manticle said:


> So the smug donkey can have a trot?


Neigh.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/8/15)

dicko said:


> Just think....this topic could have ended right here after Camo's post, number 8 to be precise, but Nnnooo...... wee have had to go through....Ah you guys know what we are all being subject to.......politics on a home brewing forum....carry on fellows, we are all still listening. :lol:


I thought Camo's excellent answer in post number 20 should have been the end of the Goodes racist/ booing saga.


----------



## dicko (25/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> By telling football supporters to stop being racists by booing their teams opponent? I agree it's bullshit unintelligent behaviour but inflaming the issue by focusing so much attention on it aint gonna help shit. There's no conspiracy. The media puts it in everyone's face and the knee-jerk reaction is inevitable.
> 
> This media focus on Bishop is one of the few examples of media journalism I can approve of considering they're focusing on an issue that would otherwise go unlooked. They all misspend and to call out another would be political suicide. Sadly, we need more Xenophons.


@WEAL,
I think I unsubscribed somewhere betweeen post number 8 and post number 20 but picked it up again when posts became heated interesting 

my bad, I shoulda stayed.. :lol:

nah, I am nominating Camo for the most sensible posts in the topic...in fact his posts should have a "solved" title after them.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

Maybe the ABC are right and your wrong about the ChAFTA....ever think of that


----------



## Lemon (25/8/15)

Vini2ton said:


> The ALP was created by the Union movement and is its political apparatus, despite what the spinners might want the man in the street to believe. Just as the LNP are the political ("lapdogs.. lickspittles..toadies.. lackies. get back down control yourself) apparatus of the business mogals. Both sides need to be assessed by the voter as to what they essentially stand for. Election policies are just a veneer. Murdoch muddies the waters of political analysis for the electorate and always has god bless him. I love this thread.


The spurs an interesting thought, one which I think needs discussing.

I agree with first part, the ALP is most definitely a creation of the unions to serve a purpose which I argued earlier they, those that founded the labor movement, achieved beyond their wildest dreams.
Is agree Less so with the intimated motivations of Menzies in the founding of the liberal party.

But, to my long winded point, again.
Some background....
In NSW certain people are prevented from donating to political parties, in particular, property developers. Which given my local happenings is probably reasonable. But, what is the reason? Because those donations could be seen to influence elected officials, I.e. State politicians , into making decisions which benefit the donators.....
With me so far?

So back to the ALP.
Would you not agree that the unions are the beneficiaries of decisions made by labor MPs? If this is the case, then wouldn't it be a small bow to draw that the same donation conflict of interest exists?
Now a reasonable argument to refute this would be to say that those decisions benefit the members of the unions, not the unions themselves. But there are plenty of corrupt union officials unearthed recently to suggest that the benefits don't fall so far as to the member.

Anyway, food for thought

Ps. If you believe what you read in the media, you get what you deserve.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

Actually...what this thread is more yeast....A smack pack will be enough ( and pre-hydrated just to stop any arguments )



wide eyed and legless said:


> Don't get to hear too many comedy shows then stu?


Only the ones on the ABC & SBS, B)

Tried watching a few comedy shows on the commercial stations like Ramseys Kitchen Nightmares, The Voice, Big Brother, Neighbours but never really found them that funny....despite what the masses thought how great they where. Apparently the Murdoch press and LNP voters think they are quality entertainment

Time for a Tim Tam and a Chicory Latte


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/25/newspoll-bill-shorten-approval-rating-improves-coalition-slides-further


----------



## dicko (25/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/25/newspoll-bill-shorten-approval-rating-improves-coalition-slides-further



NOOOO, I dont believe it Stu, your link actually comes from a media outlet.....credibility = 0

Isn't that what you were saying earlier?

Maybe we will all tip our beer out and drink and eat a Tim Tam and a Chicory Latte..


----------



## Kingy (25/8/15)

Im glad i dont read the paper or watch tv. Sitting in silence is far better for my brain.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

dicko said:


> NOOOO, I dont believe it Stu, your link actually comes from a media outlet.....credibility = 0


Sorry. just couldnt help myself


----------



## Liam_snorkel (25/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The ABC believes that the ChAFTA is a negative move for Australia


 source?


----------



## Camo6 (26/8/15)

dicko said:


> @WEAL,
> I think I unsubscribed somewhere betweeen post number 8 and post number 20 but picked it up again when posts became heated interesting
> 
> my bad, I shoulda stayed.. :lol:
> ...


Haha! I must say I'm impressed with the staying power of this thread. Generally you can tell when a thread has run its course when Stu brings up his rehydrating thread. But that was 10 pages back!


----------



## wide eyed and legless (26/8/15)

Source. Fact Check. then the governments response.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-12/china-free-trade-agreement-cost-australian-jobs-fact-check/6653214

http://trademinister.gov.au/releases/Pages/2015/ar_mr_150813.aspx?ministerid=3

If the ABC are going to interview the Unions about ChAFTA and getting a one sided view, wouldn't it be better journalism to have Robb there at the same time, and let them go at it in the same ring, it would be more entertaining than interviewing them separately. 

Camo, Mentioning Bronwyn in the thread title could have been the mistake, she didn't want to go either.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (26/8/15)

I take anything the Trade Minister says with a grain of salt....Guess who's agenda he is pushing

Bit like listening to Goebbels say how wonderful the Nazi party where...


----------



## Dave70 (26/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ramseys Kitchen Nightmares,


Phooey to that. Dig up the original Boiling Point series. Bullying, tyranny, hostility, belittlement, truculence, physical provocation and impatience served up to sweaty kitchen staff by the bucket load. 
It really is laugh a minute stuff. 

Now back to our program.


----------



## pcmfisher (26/8/15)

technobabble66 said:


> I gotta admit, Eric Abetz is one creepy guy. He really freaks me out.
> Just such a truly average person whose only saving grace is also what makes him so scary - he clearly, fervently believes the zealous crap he is shovelling.
> Australian politics will be better for the absence of extreme bias from people like him.


Good old Eric. The man believes the earth is only 6000 years old. How does he tell fantasy from reality in other things?

mmm, maybe his leader does too.

Can we make 50 pages?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (26/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I take anything the Trade Minister says with a grain of salt....Guess who's agenda he is pushing


Start and believe in the LNP stu and The world is your lobster.


----------



## seamad (26/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Start and believe in the LNP stu. There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. Stu, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to Australia.
> Stu: I'll never join you!
> Weal: If you only knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
> Stu: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
> ...


----------



## Vini2ton (26/8/15)

Even back to Menzies it was the mining mogals calling the shots and pulling the strings. They've always held the power in Australian politics. They ousted Rudd no1, not the labor party.... And what about that Leigh Sales on the ABC, she's aways spouting off her commo leftist ideas. The Drum, they ought to call that the Marxist show! I'll be glad when they sell the ABC to Murdoch. And stop picking on Eric Abetz, he can't help what his great-uncle did. After all, he did save all that artwork for the Fuhrer.


----------



## goomboogo (26/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Source. Fact Check. then the governments response.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-12/china-free-trade-agreement-cost-australian-jobs-fact-check/6653214
> 
> ...


Andrew Robb has zero credibility. He will look you straight in the face and claim 457 visas offer unwavering protection for local skilled workers and rorting doesn't take place. He is either incompetent or deceitful. Maybe both. The manner in which he passes off policy as regulation is the height of stupidity.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (26/8/15)

Vini2ton said:


> Even back to Menzies it was the mining mogals calling the shots and pulling the strings. They've always held the power in Australian politics. They ousted Rudd no1, not the labor party.... And what about that Leigh Sales on the ABC, she's aways spouting off her commo leftist ideas. The Drum, they ought to call that the Marxist show! I'll be glad when they sell the ABC to Murdoch. And stop picking on Eric Abetz, he can't help what his great-uncle did. After all, he did save all that artwork for the Fuhrer.


Probably should lay off George Brandis then. Him and Morrison often hold hands together sitting in church every Sunday displaying that they are wholesome, white, Christian pillars of society


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## manticle (26/8/15)

They are white because they are shining with God's love.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (26/8/15)

manticle said:


> They are white because they are shining with God's love.


Its a wonder there not badly sunburnt from the amount of God's love


----------



## Black Devil Dog (26/8/15)

They've got loveburn.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (27/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Andrew Robb has zero credibility. He will look you straight in the face and claim 457 visas offer unwavering protection for local skilled workers and rorting doesn't take place. He is either incompetent or deceitful. Maybe both. The manner in which he passes off policy as regulation is the height of stupidity.


Sorry goomboogo, not sure if I am following the purpose of the post, are you just expressing a personal opinion of Andrew Robb or that the ABC is correct in their view of ChAFTA ?


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## Airgead (27/8/15)

Vini2ton said:


> Even back to Menzies it was the mining mogals calling the shots and pulling the strings. They've always held the power in Australian politics. They ousted Rudd no1, not the labor party.... And what about that Leigh Sales on the ABC, she's aways spouting off her commo leftist ideas. The Drum, they ought to call that the Marxist show! I'll be glad when they sell the ABC to Murdoch. And stop picking on Eric Abetz, he can't help what his great-uncle did. After all, he did save all that artwork for the Fuhrer.


Given some of the posts in this thread, not sure if trolling...or just really daft.

Edit: spelloing


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## goomboogo (27/8/15)

WEAL, you referenced Robb's website as though we should take his word as fact. His response is obfuscation as it doesn't remotely address the proposition put to him. As I said earlier, he either doesn't understand the detail or he is deliberately misleading. I woudn'the trust him with a piggy-bank let alone a complex trade deal.


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## wide eyed and legless (27/8/15)

I referenced Robbs reply to Fact Check, it is up to whoever reads it whether they believe it or not, after all Robb is the front man in the negotiations, there are scores of people working behind the scenes, it isn't him who writes out these agreements it is the team behind him.
Surely you wouldn't deny him the right to reply, to the false facts put forward on the program.


----------



## goomboogo (27/8/15)

He didn't reply to any so-called false facts. He just trotted out a very old line that doesn't hold up when met with real world situations. I do agree with your point about him being nothing more than a PR man. This is why he should refrain from speaking about detail he is incapable of understanding.


----------



## Dave70 (27/8/15)

manticle said:


> They are white because they are shining with God's love.


Its just so beautiful when that happens. Praise the lord.


----------



## manticle (27/8/15)

Airgead said:


> Given some of the posts in this thread, not sure if trolling...or just really daft.
> 
> Edit: spelloing


Pretty sure it was written in sarcastic font.


----------



## JDW81 (27/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Its just so beautiful when that happens. Praise the lord.


Have you seen the light?


----------



## JDW81 (27/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Murdoch is a bit closer to the truth than Fairfax.


Really? The news outlets of a controlling, media mogul, who is renowned for hand picking his editorial staff to push his agenda is closer to the truth of an organisation with a longstanding charter of editorial independence? As I recall, Gina Rinehart tried to buy her way onto the board of fairfax and demanded the right to hire and fire the editorial staff and the scrapping of their longstanding editorial independence. She was told to bugger off.

I suppose Murdoch has Andrew Bolt and Piers Akerman working for him. They're pretty trustworthy fellows.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (27/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> He didn't reply to any so-called false facts. He just trotted out a very old line that doesn't hold up when met with real world situations. I do agree with your point about him being nothing more than a PR man. This is why he should refrain from speaking about detail he is incapable of understanding.


I don't think we are going to agree on the contentions the unions have with the ChAFTA, looking at it in a logical perspective it would be political suicide if the Abbott government signed off on an agreement which would see Australians loose out on jobs, I believe that it is an opportunity to good to miss, and I would back it as it is, whichever party signed off on it.


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## wide eyed and legless (27/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> Really? The news outlets of a controlling, media mogul, who is renowned for hand picking his editorial staff to push his agenda is closer to the truth of an organisation with a longstanding charter of editorial independence? As I recall, Gina Rinehart tried to buy her way onto the board of fairfax and demanded the right to hire and fire the editorial staff and the scrapping of their longstanding editorial independence. She was told to bugger off.
> 
> I suppose Murdoch has Andrew Bolt and Piers Akerman working for him. They're pretty trustworthy fellows.


Wow, took along time for someone to bite on that line, even stu wrote it off with a flippant reply.


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## JDW81 (27/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Wow, took along time for someone to bite on that line, even stu wrote it off with a flippant reply.


Not trying to bite, just adding my view to this ongoing discussion, even if you did make your point with your tongue pushed firmly into your cheek.

JD


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## Airgead (27/8/15)

manticle said:


> Pretty sure it was written in sarcastic font.


I hope so... for the sale of our future as a species, i really hope so.


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## Dave70 (27/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> Have you seen the light?


My eyes are wiiiiiiiide open, brother!


.










manticle said:


> Pretty sure it was written in sarcastic font.


Is that like comic sans?


----------



## Vini2ton (27/8/15)

Sarcastic affront. Anyway back to Bronny. Murdoch's Herald Sun didn't pull any punches on her, they went to town on her, witch surprised me. Sorry I meant which. She must have got up the great man's nose at some time or other. Maybe a real "Captain's pick" that she is past her political useby date. Her seat would be cherry-ripe for an independant to swoop up. Anyone?


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## manticle (27/8/15)

Airgead said:


> I hope so... for the sale of our future as a species, i really hope so.


Don't sell our future man.
Probably won't get much anyway.


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## manticle (27/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Is that like comic sans?



More like wing dings


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## goomboogo (27/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> My eyes are wiiiiiiiide open, brother!
> 
> 
> .


He was a drunken, arrogant bastard. I miss him dearly.


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## wide eyed and legless (28/8/15)

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


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## Dave70 (28/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Yup. First century superstition rendered in fifteenth century English. It the 'th' thats the hook you know.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Wow, took along time for someone to bite on that line, even stu wrote it off with a flippant reply.


Propably because your where talking crap


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## wide eyed and legless (28/8/15)

As I was saying.....


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## Bribie G (28/8/15)

Brother in law in Bundaberg is a funny guy. Back in 1978 he lost the sight of one eye that got speared by a Yucca leaf spine that went into his eyeball when he fell of his bike, drunk. Ouch.
then he found the Lord.
Praise, praise (jump up and down clapping with hands over head).

Guy went on to become a successful landscaping contractor, God bless and reward him. Then one day "I can see, I can see, the Lord has cured my blindness, praise..... etc".

A year later he's going around with a big bandage over his face.
What happened to young G**** ?

Oh, G**** was walking round the corner of his shed and couldn't see the bit of steel sticking out of the side, what with his blind eye and all......


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## Bribie G (28/8/15)

What, is the world older than 6000 years? I'd always thought the Flintstones was a documentary.


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## wide eyed and legless (28/8/15)

Ye though I walketh through the the shadow of the website of socialists, I will fear no evil for I have the Abbott and Bishop at my side they will guide me onto the path of the righteousness,through the mire of the unbelievers and the Horned ones puppet whom they call Bill and worship as a false idol, blasphemers.


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## wobbly (28/8/15)

"Hallelujah Brother I'm a believer"

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Ye though I walketh through the the shadow of the website of socialists, I will fear no evil for I have the Abbott and Bishop at my side they will guide me onto the path of the righteousness,through the mire of the unbelievers and the Horned ones puppet whom they call Bill and worship as a false idol, blasphemers.


Saddled up with Mr & Mrs Satan again WEAL.

Your dedication and love for them is, well, honourable at best . Gota give you points for believing in them. There arn't many of your kind around B)


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As I was saying.....


Glad you agree with me on that


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## wide eyed and legless (28/8/15)

Absolution, I mean absolutely.


----------



## seamad (28/8/15)




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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

How to eat an onion like a boss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RchE5c-cYnM


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## Black Devil Dog (28/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Ye though I walketh through the the shadow of the website of socialists,


Amen.


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## Camo6 (28/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Ye though I walketh through the the shadow of the website of socialists,


iMen


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

WTF is this government up to......What are they thinking....

They seem to be going from one ****-up to the next

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-28/operation-fortitude-cancelled/6733008


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## manticle (28/8/15)

I can imagine the potential for hilarity.

Official: got your visa there mate?
Commuter: um no. I'm going home from work.
O: Where you travelling to?
C:Altona North
O: Got your passport?
C: Um, no. My myki is valid though.
O: Not likely mate. Only train you'll be catching is the first one back to Syria.


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## Black Devil Dog (28/8/15)

It's clumsy the way they've done it, for sure.

But if someone is overstaying their visa and they have a job, they're preventing a law abiding person from having that job.
It's well known that there are thousands of people who have overstayed their visas, working illegally in Australia. 

I thought foreigners taking jobs from Australian's was something the Unions and socialists were against. Depends on the agenda of the day I suppose. 

Maybe they could just send out a media release and request all visa over-stayers, voluntarily make themselves known at the local police station.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

Its more a case of how they are going about it.....

You really think putting a group of glorified customs officers at train stations is really going to get masses of illegal overseas visitors.

How are you going to tell who is legal and who is not...you certainly cant do that just by looking at them...oh wait...look over there..a terrorist...

They are starting to over step their legal powers


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)




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## manticle (28/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It's clumsy the way they've done it, for sure.


And that is the point



> But if someone is overstaying their visa and they have a job, they're preventing a law abiding person from having that job.
> It's well known that there are thousands of people who have overstayed their visas, working illegally in Australia.
> 
> I thought foreigners taking jobs from Australian's was something the Unions and socialists were against. Depends on the agenda of the day I suppose.


Really? Not sure many arguments have been made against the law that limits visa stays. Stopping people randomly at flinders st on the other hand is a bit of a shit idea.



> Maybe they could just send out a media release and request all visa over-stayers, voluntarily make themselves known at the local police station.


Maybe abf could just realise it's a shit idea and leave it at that. Not sure why you'd want to be an apologist for it or try and make it anything to do with socialism or unionism.

Hey that's a shit idea
Yeah you're right.

Yes I said shit idea several times because it is.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (28/8/15)

From the article linked._ Under the Migration Act, an officer may require a person who the officer knows or reasonably suspects is a non-citizen to show their ID or their proof of citizenship or visa._

I wouldn't interpret _ 'knows or reasonably suspects' _as "stopping people randomly".

I'm not an apologist, but I'm not an alarmist either.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

Immigration officers generaly find most illegal immigrants at their workplace, which makes it really easy as they are all in the one place

Very few get busted just catching a train


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## manticle (28/8/15)

So they're going to hang out at Melbourne's most used train station to target people who are known or reasonably suspected, rather than target specific individuals at home or work?
I'm not an alarmist either but dare I say it - it's a shit idea. They have gone so far as to realise that, you've admitted yourself it's a clumsy approach.

I doubt it's particularly the government of the day - more likely an overzealous public servant trying to score career advancement points and a manager with no foresight as to the repercussions vs reward.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/15)

But yeah...its a shit idea

Even WEAL would agree with that


----------



## Liam_snorkel (29/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> From the article linked._ Under the Migration Act, an officer may require a person who the officer knows or reasonably suspects is a non-citizen to show their ID or their proof of citizenship or visa._
> 
> I wouldn't interpret _ 'knows or reasonably suspects' _as "stopping people randomly".
> 
> I'm not an apologist, but I'm not an alarmist either.


"Reasonably suspect" is discretionary power, come on.


----------



## droid (29/8/15)

Random drug tests in the workplace have stopped many a person from having a brekky bong etc, shit idea? whatever, what's the big deal with being stopped and spoken to? I don't have a problem with that. Carrying ID is normal isn't it?


----------



## Seaquebrew (29/8/15)

People in dark uniforms checking 'papers' ?

I must live in a vacuum, first I've heard of Border Force

Not something that fills me with joy


----------



## Liam_snorkel (29/8/15)

Something something hitler quote.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (29/8/15)

A bit of deja vu, same thing happened in UK a couple of years ago, and as usual Australia and UK seem to mimic each other.

http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/07/30/newsflash-uk-border-agency-id-checking-people-of-colour-at-train-stations/

Minister says its nothing to do with him, but obviously it would have channeled its way down from him, I don't have any qualms about Border Protection doing their job, but I don't see how they are going to do it if they don't, as they say, target race, religion or ethnicity.
Would be a much simpler idea to ask employers to sight work visas, although even so without having to do that the ATO declaration form should pick the prospective employee up.
Then you have the brothel workers who come in on a student visa and lay on their back for a year and then go back to whichever Asian country they have come from, no tax paid and a load of AUD gone out of the country.
And a few years ago when we were booming furniture factories were bringing in cheap labour on 3 month visas,wasn't found out until a furniture factory caught fire in the middle of the night in the Western suburbs and the firemen found a couple of dozen disorientated Chinese people wandering about, they worked ate and slept in the factory.


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

Maybe, rather than targeting individuals on the street, Borderforce could pay some attention to the business owners who are exploiting the sex workers and factory workers. It's hardly surprising that people are prepared to circumvent the law in order to work in Australia when there are zero opportunities to make reasonable incomes in their native countries. Yet in this country, it's these people who are the recipients of vitriol as opposed to those who take most advantage from the situation.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (29/8/15)

It's the businesses who pay cash who should be targeted, go to a Chinese restaurant in Glen Waverley or Springvale and try to pay with plastic, they hold your wife and kids hostage while you have to go off and find a hole in the wall.
While they may not be employing illegals they would be paying lower than award wages and avoiding tax as well.

As for the targeting of train stations, how else is an illegal going to travel, couldn't get a driving licence, they could drive illegally but would eventually get picked up, it is the only feasible place to pick up an illegal, just the manpower going into it that is a waste.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (29/8/15)

Haha yeah, "EFTPOS BROKEN" everywhere


----------



## wide eyed and legless (29/8/15)

Bob Hawke throws his weight (for what its worth) behind ChAFTA.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/bob-hawke-warns-alp-and-unions-on-china-fta/story-fn59nm2j-1227501956380?sv=df188a71101aac7b265bd0c8f9564f53


----------



## spog (29/8/15)

It's all Bronwyn's fault.


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

Bronwyn was full of glee when told she was being offered an ambassadorship to begin after the next election. Her glee subsided when told she was to be the new ambassador to Borderforce with the embassy to be situated in Mount Druitt.


----------



## Camo6 (29/8/15)

I'm not too concerned about random Visa checks around busy stations. Hell, next they'll 'randomly' check for train fares too. An experienced eye probably has a more successful strike rate with who they 'randomly' inspect but where's the problem in being efficient at one's job. Should we strive not to be efficient at our jobs?
Really, if you've done nothing wrong what have you got to worry about? This isn't an Orwell or Bradbury novel. This is about upholding laws which allow us the freedom and security we've come to take for granted.
Considering the current trend of employing cheaper workers on 457 Visa's when there's able bodies here, I'm all for a bit of privacy invading, racially discriminating, morally degrading, Visa overstaying, xenophobic spot checking.

http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/transfield-recruits-migrant-labour-despite-largescale-redundancies-in-victoria-20150826-gj7xu1.html#ixzz3k0qwUc6k


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Considering the current trend of employing cheaper workers on 457 Visa's when there's able bodies here, I'm all for a bit of privacy invading, racially discriminating, morally degrading, Visa overstaying, xenophobic spot checking.
> 
> http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/transfield-recruits-migrant-labour-despite-largescale-redundancies-in-victoria-20150826-gj7xu1.html#ixzz3k0qwUc6k


Wouldn't the most efficient way to undertake such visa checks involve visiting workplaces in industry sectors most associated with employing workers under these visa schemes.


----------



## Camo6 (29/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Wouldn't the most efficient way to undertake such visa checks involve visiting workplaces in industry sectors most associated with employing workers under these visa schemes.


Maybe some workplaces. But most sites I've been on have multiple entries/exits, good communication methods, an unspoken loyalty and a distaste for law enforcement!


And I don't think the protests have anything to do with a waste of Government resources in this instance, more an over inflated sense of civil rights.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere jetzt


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Would be a much simpler idea to ask employers to sight work visas, although even so without having to do that the ATO declaration form should pick the prospective employee up.
> Then you have the brothel workers who come in on a student visa and lay on their back for a year and then go back to whichever Asian country they have come from, no tax paid and a load of AUD gone out of the country.


And they do target employers.

But you are always going to get dodgy employers who will do their very best to hide the workers. That will never change

Neither will the sex worker issue

It take Joe Public to be engaged to help find these illegals


----------



## Camo6 (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And they do target employers.
> 
> But you are always going to get dodgy employers who will do their very best to hide the workers. That will never change
> 
> ...


I reckon if Joe Public's engaged, there's no way he's gonna report an illegal sex worker.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (29/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> I reckon if Joe Public's engaged, there's no way he's gonna report an illegal sex worker.


It would take a lot of resolve for an immigration official to enter a brothel, ask to see ID's and work visas, 'Sorry sarge all legit and above board' h34r:

Chinese run factories which were around me in Moorabbin were often raided, and it was always a dob in, usually from a sales rep who had called in, not got an order and had phoned health and safety and immigration through spite.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Something something hysterical quote.


ftfy


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

manticle said:


> Not sure why you'd want to be an apologist for it or try and* make it anything to do with socialism or unionism.*


They did that themselves.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It would take a lot of resolve for an immigration official to enter a brothel, ask to see ID's and work visas, 'Sorry sarge all legit and above board' h34r:


No it wouldnt.

They have done it before. You just hear about it that often. Its not exactly front page headline stuff ( unless someone high profile gets caught up )


----------



## seamad (29/8/15)

This is just week 2 of Abbott trying to look tough on National security.
As reported in the Fin Review by Laura Tingle 2 weeks ago:

"A meeting of the National Security Committee of the cabinet has, however, recently asked for a list of national-security-related things that could be announced weekly between now and the election.
How much scrutiny has gone in to these "announceables" is unclear."

So in week 1 we get Let's bomb Syria





and week 2 we get ABF getting tough on visa holders, again I'll leave the finer detail to pope





Let's see what we get next week...


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

"A meeting of the National Security Committee of the cabinet has, however, recently asked for a list of national-security-related things that could be announced weekly between now and the election.

Tingle's article could have been titled, "The moment when stupidity becomes pathetic."


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Abbott is playing ( creating ) on fear of the masses, The oldest trick in the book

Tell the population they are under attack from "insert threat here" then be perceived to be doing something tough about it

That is truly pathetic


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The left are playing ( creating ) on fear of the masses, The oldest trick in the book
> 
> Tell the population they are under attack from the LNP then be perceived to be doing something tough about it
> 
> That is truly pathetic


You're right.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/former-mp-tony-windsor-border-force-patrol-was-a-deliberate-act-to-create-fear-20150828-gjaj8a.html


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> You're right.


Yep

Abbott is creating a sphere of fear because he knows his ass is well and truly on the line.

Got nothing to do with the left, unless Abbott is a closet left winger


----------



## Elz (29/8/15)

bettya they weren't planning on checking the Irish and English backpackers, ummm 'illegals'. My money would ge on the others, non anglo looking folks among other us. You know the dangerous ones.


----------



## manticle (29/8/15)

Perish the thought.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

If your white and Christian, your OK.


----------



## CoopsOz (29/8/15)

Never mind, too many beers. Don't want to get involved. [emoji3]


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Never mind, too many beers. Don't want to get involved. [emoji3]


It hasn't stopped the rest of us.


----------



## Camo6 (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Never mind, too many beers. Don't want to get involved. [emoji3]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhwms1gbk-Q

C'mon, you know Shia Labeouf would.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Never mind, too many beers. Don't want to get involved. [emoji3]


Get involved

You could put across the view from the vegetable liberation front


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Only if it's the green vegetable liberation front, the yellow vegetable liberation front aren't welcome here.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Splitters


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Splitters


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Sorry, I meant the liberation front of yellow vegetables.

The yellow vegetable liberation front are welcome here.......


----------



## Airgead (29/8/15)

> *Julius Caesar - "Beware of the leader, who strikes the war drum in order to transfer the citizens into patriotic glow, patriotism is indeed a double-sided sword. It makes the blood so boldly, like it constricts the intellect. And if the striking of the war drum reached a fiebrige height and the blood is cooking and hating, and the intellect is dismissed, the leader doesn't need to reject the citizens rights. The citizens, cought by anxiety and blinded through patriotism, will subordinate all their rights to the leader and this even with happy courage. Why do I know that? I know it, because this is, what I did."*





> Benjamin Franklin - Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.



WTF is this stupid thing doing with my formatting. Why do I have empty quotes within quotes? I have no idea and I've drunk too much red win to really care.


----------



## manticle (29/8/15)

Red win for the win


----------



## seamad (29/8/15)

Airgead said:


> WTF is this stupid thing doing with my formatting. Why do I have empty quotes within quotes? I have no idea and I've drunk too much red win to really care.


fixed the empty quote for you, tony not saying anything


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

looks like Airghead has been to communion and drank all the win


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

seamad said:


> fixed the empty quote for you, tony not saying anything



If only he would say nothing more often


----------



## seamad (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> If only he would say nothing more often


does he actually say much beyond "I've stopped... " "let me make this crystal clear " "death cult "


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Jobs. Growth. Coal


----------



## manticle (29/8/15)

Good gubment


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Why doesnt he mention the budget emergency anymore.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Did someone say budgie emergency?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

There are so many things wrong with that photo

The ears, skull cap, watch, the person in the background with a pink skull cap and hi-vis vest.....


----------



## Lincoln2 (29/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Did someone say budgie emergency?


God, that photo makes me so hot.


----------



## wally (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Why doesnt he mention the budget emergency anymore.



That was last years fear.

He needs something more fearsome as his arse is on the line.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> There are so many things wrong with that photo
> 
> The ears, skull cap, watch, the person in the background with a pink skull cap and hi-vis vest.....


Yeah, I can't see anything else wrong with it though.


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Why doesnt he mention the budget emergency anymore.


Because it was one of the things Christopher Pyne fixed. He's a fixer don't you know.


----------



## seamad (29/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Jobs. Growth. Coal


Jobs- highest unemployment in 13 years
Growth- lowest wages growth in 40 years
Coal- rupert still likes it. He just spent some time on the barrier reef and it apparently looks just the same as it did 50 years ago, no need for any of that climate science rubbishy stuff.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Because it was one of the things Christopher Pyne fixed. He's a fixer don't you know.
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Shit...forgot about dear Christopher being the fixer

Not sure what or how he fixed it. But he did fix it


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

seamad said:


> Jobs- highest unemployment in 13 years
> Growth- lowest wages growth in 40 years
> Coal- rupert still likes it. He just spent some time on the barrier reef and it apparently looks just the same as it did 50 years ago, no need for any of that climate science rubbishy stuff.


He probably was looking at a post card from the 70"s. They still print them you know, with the same photo B)


----------



## Lincoln2 (29/8/15)

Hai Guyz, checkout my new you tube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DGSQBCXWyQ


----------



## CoopsOz (29/8/15)

If Tony's job is to instill unwarranted fear into the masses then it must be Billy's job to convince everyone how hard they have got it. Somehow people will do the old "woe is me" routine while sitting in the loungroom of their big f'n McMansion and watching the foxtel super Saturday on a TV that is the size of the entire wall. Meanwhile Mrs hard done by is in the kitchen playing with her Thermomix and Norwex tea towels. This whole time their kids are playing online games with all the other poor kids over the NBN.


----------



## Lincoln2 (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> If Tony's job is to instill unwarranted fear into the masses then it must be Billy's job to convince everyone how hard they have got it. Somehow people will do the old "woe is me" routine while sitting in the loungroom of their big f'n McMansion and watching the foxtel super Saturday on a TV that is the size of the entire wall. Meanwhile Mrs hard done by is in the kitchen playing with her Thermomix and Norwex tea towels. This whole time their kids are playing online games with all the other poor kids over the NBN.


Yeah, but what did you think about my movie?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

Are they watching Tony on the big screen 4G TV now.

I really must do some thing about my old cathode-ray TV. 

Maybe I will see Tony in a different perspective B)


----------



## goomboogo (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> If Tony's job is to instill unwarranted fear into the masses then it must be Billy's job to convince everyone how hard they have got it. Somehow people will do the old "woe is me" routine while sitting in the loungroom of their big f'n McMansion and watching the foxtel super Saturday on a TV that is the size of the entire wall. Meanwhile Mrs hard done by is in the kitchen playing with her Thermomix and Norwex tea towels. This whole time their kids are playing online games with all the other poor kids over the NBN.


I understood all of this post except for Norwex tea towels. I had to google those.


----------



## Lincoln2 (29/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> I understood all of this post except for Norwex tea towels. I had to google those.


****, is anyone even interested in my masterpiece?


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

Lincoln2 said:


> Hai Guyz, checkout my new you tube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DGSQBCXWyQ


 Did that empty foil bag weigh .002g?

I'll be able to use that information when I'm calculating how much hops I have left. :lol:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> I understood all of this post except for Norwex tea towels. I had to google those.


Me to.

The web site rambles on about how they are good for the environment..etc..etc...

Dont think Tony would have any of them in his cupboard. They would be to environmentally friendly for him.


----------



## CoopsOz (29/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> I understood all of this post except for Norwex tea towels. I had to google those.


Apparently it is microfibre with silver in it. Dunno, I don't ask and she doesn't ask when more brew stuff arrives.



Lincoln2 said:


> Yeah, but what did you think about my movie?


I did, very enjoyable. I couldn't help but notice it featured a Braumeister, perhaps I should have put that in my rant too. [emoji3]


----------



## Lincoln2 (29/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Did that empty foil bag weigh .002g?
> 
> I'll be able to use that information when I'm calculating how much hops I have left. :lol:


Don't pretend - you only looked at the screen shot. You need to watch the whole thing.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

I did. 

Is there somewhere I can go and get my 3:17 minutes back?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> I did, very enjoyable. I couldn't help but notice it featured a Braumeister, perhaps I should have put that in my rant too. [emoji3]


We had 2 of them there. 

Worth more than the cars we collectively drove there in


----------



## Lincoln2 (29/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Apparently it is microfibre with silver in it. Dunno, I don't ask and she doesn't ask when more brew stuff arrives.
> 
> 
> I did, very enjoyable. I couldn't help but notice it featured a Braumeister, perhaps I should have put that in my rant too. [emoji3]


Not mine. I consider them to be a toy for rich c*nts.

Same with motorbikes, mobile telephones and vanity rego plates.


----------



## CoopsOz (29/8/15)

Interesting behaviour with Tapatalk. The post above is censored when browsing the thread however no such censorship exists when viewing the post using the "Timeline" feature.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (29/8/15)

will fix it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> If your white and Christian, your OK.


How many white Christians are there, I think they would be harder to spot than an illegal.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

They are a minority. But they are in power.


----------



## seamad (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> They are a minority. But they are in power.


https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2015/08/29/prime-minister-tony-abbott-and-the-christian-right/14407704002308


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

seamad said:


> https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2015/08/29/prime-minister-tony-abbott-and-the-christian-right/14407704002308


Among the non-Catholics is the arch right-winger Eric Abetz, aligned with the Christian Reformed Churches of Australia, who use the mission statement “Pray, multiply, train and align”, and Scott Morrison, aligned with the Pentecostal Assemblies of God

 Bernardi is the closest analogue in Australia to the Tea Party of the United States. Indeed, he has consciously imported their techniques, including the establishment of the Conservative Leadership Foundation to sponsor young religious right-wingers, and the Conservative Action Network, which he has characterised as “a Facebook for conservatives”


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

seamad said:


> Jobs- highest unemployment in 13 years
> Growth- lowest wages growth in 40 years


Jobs, what was the highest unemployment before that, oh yes, the Keating government, around 9% Little Johnny got it down to around 4.5% Rudd took it back up again to around 6%, Abbotts only been in the job a couple of years so give him a chance and he will get it down unless ALP block Chafta.

Lowest wage growth in 40 years, all the more reason to work for yourself and give yourself a decent rise each year.
Only last week an Irish immigrant earned himself an $8 MILLION pay rise, how, by hard ******* work.


----------



## mje1980 (30/8/15)

Awesome, that 1 hour a week job means statistically I'm employed! Can't wait to spend that whole $15


----------



## mje1980 (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Jobs, what was the highest unemployment before that, oh yes, the Keating government, around 9% Little Johnny got it down to around 4.5% Rudd took it back up again to around 6%, Abbotts only been in the job a couple of years so give him a chance and he will get it down unless ALP block Chafta.
> 
> Lowest wage growth in 40 years, all the more reason to work for yourself and give yourself a decent rise each year.
> Only last week an Irish immigrant earned himself an $8 MILLION pay rise, how, by hard ******* work.


You know, some people work ******* hard for other people. They're no less a hard worker just because they're not the boss. Or is the be all and end all working for yourself?


----------



## CoopsOz (30/8/15)

I found this amusing. The right are constantly lambasted for their border policies but it seems they are both as bad as each other.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> I found this amusing. The right are constantly lambasted for their border policies but it seems they are both as bad as each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByTapatalk1440891487.831011.jpg


This is true


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Jobs, what was the highest unemployment before that, oh yes, the Keating government, around 9% Little Johnny got it down to around 4.5% Rudd took it back up again to around 6%, Abbotts only been in the job a couple of years so give him a chance and he will get it down unless ALP block Chafta.
> 
> Lowest wage growth in 40 years, all the more reason to work for yourself and give yourself a decent rise each year.
> Only last week an Irish immigrant earned himself an $8 MILLION pay rise, how, by hard ******* work.


Hang on

Isnt the Chafta about allowing in Chinese workers....How does that lower our un-employment rate ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

mje1980 said:


> You know, some people work ******* hard for other people. They're no less a hard worker just because they're not the boss. Or is the be all and end all working for yourself?


The thing is if you are working ******* hard for some one else, and doing a good job ask for a pay rise, don't wait to get offered one because it will not happen, if you want to carry on working for someone else you have to make yourself seem indispensable and ASK for something extra. That,s what Alan Joyce did but on a bigger scale obviously.
Or you can, as a lot of people do, think, well this is as good as it gets. You get out what you are prepared to put in.


----------



## Rod (30/8/15)

So it was not racism when one of the protesters burned the Australian flag

disgraceful 

:angry:


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Hang on
> 
> Isnt the Chafta about allowing in Chinese workers....How does that lower our un-employment rate ?


If you want to believe what the unions are saying, even the ALP was happy with the agreement until the unions gave instructions to the ALP to block it, and I doubt whether little Billy would be that stupid.
This is a scare tactic drawn up by the unions, against funnily enough its own members and anyone stupid enough to believe them.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

But you havent answered the question

So are you saying that the Chafta wont be bringing in overseas workers ?

And if they are, how does that lower our unemployment rate ?


----------



## manticle (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The thing is if you are working ******* hard for some one else, and doing a good job ask for a pay rise, don't wait to get offered one because it will not happen, if you want to carry on working for someone else you have to make yourself seem indispensable and ASK for something extra. That,s what Alan Joyce did but on a bigger scale obviously.
> Or you can, as a lot of people do, think, well this is as good as it gets. You get out what you are prepared to put in.


The problem with your utopian ideal is that it requires someone (company, entity, person) at the top and therefore others beneath. You simply can't have every individual working for themselves, earning 8 million dollars a year and **** everyone else.
Work hard or not, there's nothing remotely sustainable if your ideas are extended beyond one person running a small business.


----------



## goomboogo (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Jobs, what was the highest unemployment before that, oh yes, the Keating government, around 9% Little Johnny got it down to around 4.5% Rudd took it back up again to around 6%.


What did the Keating government specifically do to contribute to the 9% unemployment figure? What did the Howard government specifically do to contribute to the 4.5% unemployment figure? What did the Rudd government specifically do to contribute to the 6% unemployment figure?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Looks like minister Dutton is a head in the sand type of guy

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/08/30/dutton-s-office--ignored--fortitude-briefing.html


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> What did the Keating government specifically do to contribute to the 9% unemployment figure? What did the Howard government specifically do to contribute to the 4.5% unemployment figure? What did the Rudd government specifically do to contribute to the 6% unemployment figure?


Well when Keating was in we where in the middle of a recession.....

Howard didnt do a great deal ( and its natural for unemployment to go down after a recession ) but offer middle class welfare as a vote buying ploy. 

Yes. Sometimes it is a race to the bottom with politics, to the detriment of the citizens and the country


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Of course, when you work for yourself you need others to make the money for you, and my answer was to seamad,don't complain about wages if you are not prepared to do anything about it it is not up to the government to make wage deals on a wage earners behalf.
It is because we are all different we have this discussion, there are those who will sit back and accept the working prospects and wages as they are and there are those who will want something better, luckily they are a minority and the others are in surplus who work for the minority or end up on the dole.

goomboogo, you could ask the same about Abbott what has he done that contributes to the unemployment figure.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Of course, when you work for yourself you need others to make the money for you, and my answer was to seamad,don't complain about wages if you are not prepared to do anything about *it it is not up to the government to make wage deals on a wage earners behalf*.


Which is what Unions do on behalf of the workes.

If this government had its way it would be allowing Gina to pay everyone $2/Hr


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Yeah like Bill Shorten negotiated Cleanevent's workers wages, no penalty rates, and a drop in wages, the only thing he forgot to do was get it backdated. Then accepted $40,000 off the company.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

But they still have a job.

Or would you rather they be on the Dole ( the regular Dole which pays SFA, not your LNP idea of the Dole being something that you can live on comfortably )


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But they still have a job.
> 
> Or would you rather they be on the Dole ( the regular Dole which pays SFA, not your LNP idea of the Dole being something that you can live on comfortably )


HE SOLD THEM OUT. Saying they still had a job was Shifty Shortens excuse, if Cleanevent couldn't negotiate a workable price with the organisers of the event then they shouldn't have the contract to clean up, all Shorten had to say was, go back and renegotiate the price which will allow you to pay the award or above or **** off and let someone else clean up, at the end of the day the clean up had to be done, so no one would have missed out on work, the $40,000 was the sweetener for Shorten, and you would trust him to negotiate deals for Australia, all hes interested in is back handers and slush funds.


----------



## manticle (30/8/15)

It's a low moment in AU politics when we're scrounging around trying to find qualities that make Shorten, Gillard or Rudd better/worse than Abbot/Hockey/Pyne.

I vote for the one with the least body hair


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Gillard?


----------



## manticle (30/8/15)

They'd need to prove it. I make no assumptions.


----------



## manticle (30/8/15)

I reckon Pyne keeps himself tidy


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> I reckon Pyne keeps himself tidy


He is probably a manscaper



wide eyed and legless said:


> HE SOLD THEM OUT. Saying they still had a job was Shifty Shortens excuse, if Cleanevent couldn't negotiate a workable price with the organisers of the event then they shouldn't have the contract to clean up, all Shorten had to say was, go back and renegotiate the price which will allow you to pay the award or above or **** off and let someone else clean up, at the end of the day the clean up had to be done, so no one would have missed out on work, the $40,000 was the sweetener for Shorten, and you would trust him to negotiate deals for Australia, all hes interested in is back handers and slush funds.


The Job would have been done, and the workers screwed for doing it. 

Subcontracting is mostly a race to the bottom


----------



## Tropico (30/8/15)

If Dyson Heydon ever resigns from the Royal Comission, Tony abbott will probably appoint Bronwyn Bishop


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Tropico said:


> If Dyson Heydon ever resigns from the Royal Comission, Tony abbott will probably appoint Bronwyn Bishop


He is still " thinking about it"

Personally i think it is a delaying tactic.

Would love to see Brony rolling up every morning straight off the helicopter


----------



## spog (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> It's a low moment in AU politics when we're scrounging around trying to find qualities that make Shorten, Gillard or Rudd better/worse than Abbot/Hockey/Pyne.
> 
> I vote for the one with the least body hair





wide eyed and legless said:


> Gillard?





manticle said:


> It's a low moment in AU politics when we're scrounging around trying to find qualities that make Shorten, Gillard or Rudd better/worse than Abbot/Hockey/Pyne.I vote for the one with the least body hair





wide eyed and legless said:


> Gillard?


Rusty roof,musty cellar.


----------



## Tropico (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Would love to see Brony rolling up every morning straight off the helicopter


As long as it's that big shiny one and not that silly little white one.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

We couldnt have her in anything less than a Connolly dear hide leather upholstered chopper with black tinted windows


----------



## Camo6 (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you want to believe what the unions are saying, even the ALP was happy with the agreement until the unions gave instructions to the ALP to block it, and I doubt whether little Billy would be that stupid.
> This is a scare tactic drawn up by the unions, against funnily enough its own members and anyone stupid enough to believe them.



While I agree the unions use scare tactics to drum up membership numbers and ALP votes, not everyone gets suckered in so easily. There's still no denying the trend for big companies to drive down workers wages and conditions by employing foreign employees willing to work for lower wages just for the opportunity to hang around busy Australian train stations. Hardly a scare tactic but a proven profit driving strategy. The same reason why so many big companies run the majority of their call centres and IT departments from Bangalore while making "unavoidable" job cuts in Australia yet still posting record profits.

Damn, I'm getting suckered into these fruitless threads. A hex on you all.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

And its not like the LNP dont use scare tactics either.

Thank god the budget emergency is over. That scared the hell out of me


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)




----------



## goomboogo (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> goomboogo, you could ask the same about Abbott what has he done that contributes to the unemployment figure.


Exactly. When it comes to the national economy, Australian governments of all persuasions for decades have claimed credit for things they had very little to do with. Likewise, governments have been blamed for things that were largely out of their control. There is only one way a national government can significantly affect the level of employment and that is via direct involvement. With the exception of a very brief period, Australian governments of the past 40 years have shied away from the level of involvement that would have been required to seriously reduce unemployment.

For a very long time, we have lived in a country that uses unemployment as a means to maintain inflation at the nominated target rate. This skews the view of what role the economy plays in society. Australia, like many countries, view society as being a support mechanism for the economy. Unemployment could be drastically reduced if we viewed the primary role of the national economy as being a mechanism that supports the betterment of society.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

I like your thinking... A lot

For way to long Governments of both sides have only a had a 3 year outlook which benefits no one.

They both use the same tactics to scare the voters

Both sides get in and dismantle the previous governments policies.

How the **** are we going to get anywhere when neither side side has a long term bi-partisan vision.

Politics has become a slanging match of insults and derogation & denigration. Just watch 5mins of parliament question time and its enough to want to throw your keg full of your finest home brew thru the TV


----------



## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Unemployment could be drastically reduced if we viewed the primary role of the national economy as being a mechanism that supports the betterment of society/community.


I ****ING LIKE THIS!!!

Trouble is, the share portfolios of our filthy rich and filthy rich wannabees wouldn't grow by as much as they believe is their right. And there's no real profit in bringing all those jobs back home. Bastards!!!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Well we cant have the rich not being able to become even more rich.

I see our beloved treasurer has made statements that we need to give rich people tax breaks because its the rich who are employing people and if there are no rich people there will be no employment.

I gota go and plant some turnips and spuds, cause thats all I will be able to afford as a result of me not being rich


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## CoopsOz (30/8/15)

Can we define "rich"? I don't think we can. Some people would say I'm rich whilst others will say I'm not. The reality is, I'm stuck in the middle like the other 90%. Using a term like rich without defining any metrics makes the word meaningless. FWIW, I think the little Irish (?) fella that sits at the head of the table at QANTAS is rich.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Can we define "rich"? I


Anyone earning more than me


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## manticle (30/8/15)

There's always going to be blurred lines the closer you get to trying to divide between one group or another. Rather than trying to define where middle meets lower, have a look at the extremes. The upper echeleon have concentrated a mammoth portion of the wealth (and not just because they work hard). 
If you look at wealth, asset and income inequality statistics they are pretty telling. We're talking top 10%.

This is not a good thing. Having lower income earners earn more is considered by IMF for example to contribute to GDP while increase in top tiers income may have the opposite effect.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> There's still no denying the trend for big companies to drive down workers wages and conditions by employing foreign employees willing to work for lower wages just for the opportunity to hang around busy Australian train stations. Hardly a scare tactic but a proven profit driving strategy. The same reason why so many big companies run the majority of their call centres and IT departments from Bangalore while making "unavoidable" job cuts in Australia yet still posting record profits.
> 
> Damn, I'm getting suckered into these fruitless threads. A hex on you all.


Camo there will be no foreign employees working for lower wages that is all bullshit, as for the fiasco on Friday by Border Force, if the person who ordered it is the same person who informed the media then they are truly a dick head, imagine if they had just gone out and caught 20 or so illegals there would never have been such an outcry, a few of the civil rights crowd would have had a winge and that would be about it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

spog said:


> Rusty roof,musty cellar.


Actually spog out of all the cellars I have, 'Been down', the ones with the fairer skin have been the sweetest.


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## CoopsOz (30/8/15)

[emoji3]


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Camo there will be no foreign employees working for lower wages that is all bullshit, as for the fiasco on Friday by Border Force, if the person who ordered it is the same person who informed the media then they are truly a dick head, imagine if they had just gone out and caught 20 or so illegals there would never have been such an outcry, a few of the civil rights crowd would have had a winge and that would be about it.


Why do we need foreign workers in the first place ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

We might not if the positions can be filled by our own work force.Trouble is how many unemployed tradesmen are there? We may not have enough since we have lost a lot of our manufacturing and there are a lot less apprentices now.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> .Trouble is how many unemployed tradesmen are there?


Quite a few actually. 

When there is no work for them, they become unemployed. Pretty simple really.


----------



## Barge (30/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> Unemployment could be drastically reduced if we viewed the primary role of the national economy as being a mechanism that supports the betterment of society.


Not a truer statement has been uttered. Take, for example, Australia Post. Now privatisation is probably inevitable, which will invariably lead to more job losses, reduction in services and an increase in prices to satisfy an insatiable demand for record profits every quarter. This always follows privatisation.

Imagine, however, that the government retains AusPost and, instead of seeing it as a vehicle designed to make money, it is viewed as a department crucial in driving the economy. Whilst letter writing has gone the way of the Dodo, more and more businesses operate online, thus increasing the demand for package delivery. AusPost could employ MORE people. Much more. To the point where packages are delivered door to door for free (or at least so cheap that it's as good as free). Couldn't tell you the number of times I've thought of buying something but left it because the postage was more expensive than the item. This would result in increased sales for online businesses, and an increase in the employment rate. This would obviously be funded with tax dollars but would generate much more in terms of economic growth, not to mention that the tax dollars used to fund it would be partially offset by the taxes paid by the people employed and the money saved by not having to pay them welfare.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Be difficult to privatise Australia Post when it makes huge losses on letter deliveries I believe it was $150 million, the parcels already make good profits but the letter side drags it down, it is a difficult position for any government to be in as they have to keep the letters going.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

I wouldnt want to be the Goevernment who privatises Auspost..

Not even the LNP would be that stupid.....or maybe they are.....


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## Barge (30/8/15)

True. They'll probably go the way of Royal Mail and split into 2 divisions - letters & parcels. It's just a shame that it only comes down to profits, not what else they provide in terms of employment and facilitating the economy. Not too mention being able to send Santa a letter just because.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Barge said:


> Not a truer statement has been uttered. Take, for example, Australia Post. Now privatisation is probably inevitable, which will invariably lead to more job losses, reduction in services and an increase in prices to satisfy an insatiable demand for record profits every quarter. This always follows privatisation.
> 
> Imagine, however, that the government retains AusPost and, instead of seeing it as a vehicle designed to make money, it is viewed as a department crucial in driving the economy. Whilst letter writing has gone the way of the Dodo, more and more businesses operate online, thus increasing the demand for package delivery. AusPost could employ MORE people. Much more. To the point where packages are delivered door to door for free (or at least so cheap that it's as good as free). Couldn't tell you the number of times I've thought of buying something but left it because the postage was more expensive than the item. This would result in increased sales for online businesses, and an increase in the employment rate. This would obviously be funded with tax dollars but would generate much more in terms of economic growth, not to mention that the tax dollars used to fund it would be partially offset by the taxes paid by the people employed and the money saved by not having to pay them welfare.


The LNP would never fall for it


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## Barge (30/8/15)

You know it makes sense!


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Sam Kekovich

Can this thread get any better


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## spog (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Quite a few actually.
> 
> When there is no work for them, they become unemployed. Pretty simple really.


Yep,I'm one of them. Been there done that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

spog said:


> Yep,I'm one of them. Been there done that.


Been there too.

Got a real shock when I found out how many Tradesman are on the dole...rather scary really....and its not like they dont want to work either


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## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Can this thread get any better


Maybe tomorrow if Dyson Heydon can make up his mind, sometimes its better the devil you know.


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## Camo6 (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Camo there will be no foreign employees working for lower wages that is all bullshit, as for the fiasco on Friday by Border Force, if the person who ordered it is the same person who informed the media then they are truly a dick head, imagine if they had just gone out and caught 20 or so illegals there would never have been such an outcry, a few of the civil rights crowd would have had a winge and that would be about it.


WEAL, it's already happening in the building industry. Teams of foreign workers are undercutting opposition as they're willing to take less money to do the same job. The fact that they're generally harder working and less demanding makes it very hard for employers to be patriotic.

Probably the most significant thing unions have done for the industry is standardise wages. This is most beneficial to employers as it makes tenders much fairer to estimate and places everyone on a level playing field. You can't tell me that if the FTA allows an excess of Chinese tradesman to compete in our industry, they won't work for lower wages to stay employed in a foreign place on a work visa. I'm sure you yourself can appreciate that it won't be the first time an employer exploits cheaper labour. 

I should advocate that I'm not pro union, ALP or One Nation FTM.


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## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

Barge said:


> Not a truer statement has been uttered. Take, for example, Australia Post. Now privatisation is probably inevitable, which will invariably lead to more job losses, reduction in services and an increase in prices to satisfy an insatiable demand for record profits every quarter. This always follows privatisation.
> 
> Imagine, however, that the government retains AusPost and, instead of seeing it as a vehicle designed to make money, it is viewed as a department crucial in driving the economy. Whilst letter writing has gone the way of the Dodo, more and more businesses operate online, thus increasing the demand for package delivery. AusPost could employ MORE people. Much more. To the point where packages are delivered door to door for free (or at least so cheap that it's as good as free). Couldn't tell you the number of times I've thought of buying something but left it because the postage was more expensive than the item. This would result in increased sales for online businesses, and an increase in the employment rate. This would obviously be funded with tax dollars but would generate much more in terms of economic growth, not to mention that the tax dollars used to fund it would be partially offset by the taxes paid by the people employed and the money saved by not having to pay them welfare.


And I quickly caught a fleeting screen grab this morning, the bloke in charge of Auspost pulls in a measly $4.8M as CEO and Managing Director. (%^%#%^*)&)_(&*%^$# SERIOUSLY!!!


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## manticle (30/8/15)

Yeah but let's define 'rich'......


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> And I quickly caught a fleeting screen grab this morning, the bloke in charge of Auspost pulls in a measly $4.8M as CEO and Managing Director. (%^%#%^*)&)_(&*%^$# SERIOUSLY!!!


Maybe he should get a job at Qantas


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## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

I am tonight, driving home from church tonight was more than fortunate enough to spot a folded note on the road in the semi darkness...quickly pulled up and run back, a very much needed $50....means I can afford tea tomorrow night.

So yeah, I'm rich tonight.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> WEAL, it's already happening in the building industry. Teams of foreign workers are undercutting opposition as they're willing to take less money to do the same job. The fact that they're generally harder working and less demanding makes it very hard for employers to be patriotic.
> 
> Probably the most significant thing unions have done for the industry is standardise wages. This is most beneficial to employers as it makes tenders much fairer to estimate and places everyone on a level playing field. You can't tell me that if the FTA allows an excess of Chinese tradesman to compete in our industry, they won't work for lower wages to stay employed in a foreign place on a work visa. I'm sure you yourself can appreciate that it won't be the first time an employer exploits cheaper labour.
> 
> I should advocate that I'm not pro union, ALP or One Nation FTM.


If the employee will accept lower than award wages then the employers doesnt have to pay the award wage..

Remember Howards work place relations individual bargaining thing....


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## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Maybe he should get a job at Qantas


All he had to do was sack a lazy 900 workers to get his blood money.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> All he had to do was sack a lazy 900 workers to get his blood money.


The Auspost guy wants to sack more than that. He might get $20m for his effort


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## CoopsOz (30/8/15)

My 2c, just because a tradie is on the dole doesn't mean he is unemployed. Over the past 12 months I've had quite a few guys do work on my house. The only bloke who did it on the books was the sparkie. All the others expected cash jobs. They seem genuinely shocked when I want it on the books. The only reason they are doing cashies is 'cos they were crying poor and double dipping. I'm not saying everybody does it but nearly everybody that I've dealt with over the last year does.


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## seamad (30/8/15)

Feeling pretty rich tonight. Rugby (union) club had presentation day today and my son won the coach's award for U9s. I think that's the award for the quickest player to get from training to the sausages at the bbq.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

There are always those that will do it.... Even politicians have been known to do it


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## shaunous (30/8/15)

So many Homebrewers, so many Labour voters.


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## Camo6 (30/8/15)

shaunous said:


> So many Homebrewers, so many Labour voters.


Pffft. Spot the grape grower ^ h34r:


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## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

seamad said:


> Feeling pretty rich tonight. Rugby (union) club had presentation day today and my son won the coach's award for U9s. I think that's the award for the quickest player to get from training to the sausages at the bbq.



Love it. Beautiful. You must be so proud. Couldn't help myself, laughed aloud when I read this.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Poor old WEAL must be feeling lonely in this thread...


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## Barge (30/8/15)

shaunous said:


> So many Homebrewers, so many Labour voters.


Who would've thought that a large part of a community of practical, do-it-yourself type of people have an inherent distaste for elitist, right-wing politics.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Barge said:


> Who would've thought that a large part of a community of practical, do-it-yourself type of people have an inherent distaste for elitist, right-wing politics.


Truly baffling


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## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

shaunous said:


> So many Homebrewers, so many Labour voters.


Trying to find the correlation,... sure there's one there somewhere.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

shaunous said:


> So many Homebrewers, so many Labour voters.


Just cause you vote for the Greens and the Cyclist Party


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## goomboogo (30/8/15)

shaunous said:


> So many Homebrewers, so many Labour voters.


There's nothing wrong with labour. Physical work can keep people fit and healthy.


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## Camo6 (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Poor old WEAL must be feeling lonely in this thread...


I'm sure WEAL'll console himself somehow...


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> There's nothing wrong with labour. Physical work can keep people fit and healthy.


Exactly


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

What have labor the Romans ever done for us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE


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## madpierre06 (30/8/15)

"Well, they gave us a free education".


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## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> WEAL, it's already happening in the building industry. Teams of foreign workers are undercutting opposition as they're willing to take less money to do the same job. The fact that they're generally harder working and less demanding makes it very hard for employers to be patriotic.
> 
> Probably the most significant thing unions have done for the industry is standardise wages. This is most beneficial to employers as it makes tenders much fairer to estimate and places everyone on a level playing field. You can't tell me that if the FTA allows an excess of Chinese tradesman to compete in our industry, they won't work for lower wages to stay employed in a foreign place on a work visa. I'm sure you yourself can appreciate that it won't be the first time an employer exploits cheaper labour.
> 
> I should advocate that I'm not pro union, ALP or One Nation FTM.


A bit of a contradiction there camo doesn't the CFMEU look after the building sites, would they allow foreign workers to undercut others, as you said later in the post the unions have standardised wages, and then you have got Fair Work Australia to back up what ever is award wages and must be paid to the employee.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Poor old WEAL must be feeling lonely in this thread...


Not so much of the,'old'. I don't feel lonely I like it when the odds are against me, all the more people I can wind up.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> A bit of a contradiction there camo doesn't the CFMEU look after the building sites, would they allow foreign workers to undercut others, as you said later in the post the unions have standardised wages, and then you have got Fair Work Australia to back up what ever is award wages and must be paid to the employee.


BUT... if the employee decides to sign on for a job as a labourer in order so that the employer can pay them lower...what then.

You have a case where the employer is paying an employee a lower wage for the same work so he can get the job...And its all legal under the law


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> all the more people I can wind up.


BAHAHAHA... your stealing my job. Are you getting payed less than me to do it...


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## seamad (30/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> "Well, they gave us a free education".


Gough did.Hawkey introduced HECS half way through my degree, can't complain as I got 3 years for free, only paid for the final 3. Interesting that Pyne won't release the costings projected by the department for uni degrees under his proposed changes, and hired the ex beaurocrat of education at $ 150,000 for 3 weeks to try to negotiate with the X bench, who told him to nick off.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

seamad said:


> Gough did.Hawkey introduced HECS half way through my degree, can't complain as I got 3 years for free, only paid for the final 3. Interesting that Pyne won't release the costings projected by the department for uni degrees under his proposed changes, and hired the ex beaurocrat of education at $ 150,000 for 3 weeks to try to negotiate with the X bench, who told him to nick off.


But he has fixed it


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## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

NO, it is not legal you can sign up for a job then if the wages are below award then Fair Work Australia would love to hear about it.
I have been before them stu, if they can't get you one way they will try and find another. An interesting read is some of the cases that have been heard by them.


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## goomboogo (30/8/15)

$150000 for three weeks. Surely that's a little bit rich. Not Alan Joyce rich but at least a bit rich.


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## Camo6 (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> A bit of a contradiction there camo doesn't the CFMEU look after the building sites, would they allow foreign workers to undercut others, as you said later in the post the unions have standardised wages, and then you have got Fair Work Australia to back up what ever is award wages and must be paid to the employee.


Not every sites union WEAL. Not every worker will go to Fair Work either. Especially not when your employed in a foreign country.

Heheh, I still remember my first job cleaning a Chinese fish shop. The wife was certainly the one in charge. I think she paid me $4 an hour but she'd always get me to sign a higher wage in her books. "Shh shh" she'd say, "I give you sum extla." Week old baby octupus just didn't cut it though.


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## seamad (30/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> $150000 for three weeks. Surely that's a little bit rich. Not Alan Joyce rich but at least a bit rich.


http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/07/coalition-paying-150000-to-outsource-higher-education-negotiations


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> NO, it is not legal you can sign up for a job then if the wages are below award then Fair Work Australia would love to hear about it.
> I have been before them stu, if they can't get you one way they will try and find another. An interesting read is some of the cases that have been heard by them.


You miss read what I said

You can sign up for a lower award. They still have to pay you for the award you signed up for


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## manticle (30/8/15)

You have a lot of faith in the system weal.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

seamad said:


> . Interesting that Pyne won't release the costings projected by the department for uni degrees under his proposed changes, and hired the ex beaurocrat of education at $ 150,000 for 3 weeks to try to negotiate with the X bench, who told him to nick off.


You would think a Minister would be capable of negotiating his own policy...oh...wait....my mistake


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> You have a lot of faith in the Liberal Party weal.


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## seamad (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> You have a lot of faith in the system weal.


think it's called wealonomics, probably bears a striking similarity to the koch brothers tea party version of economics.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

seamad said:


> think it's called wealonomics, probably bears a striking similarity to the koch brothers tea party version of economics.


Stop it


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## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Can we define "rich"?


Many people in the world are incredibly poor financially, but rich culturally, spiritually or in community, maybe those people are happier and more content than any of us posting here.

Defining rich in a financial sense is relative, but here's a link that compares cost of living expenses. and other stuff around the world. 

One thing it doesn't compare is whinging, but if it did, Australia would be right up there.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> One thing it doesn't compare is whinging, but if it did, Australia would be right up there.


Something we could beat the whinging Poms at


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## wide eyed and legless (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You miss read what I said
> 
> You can sign up for a lower award. They still have to pay you for the award you signed up for


No one can pay you less than the award even if you go into an employment agreement.
http://www.fairwork.gov.au/awards-and-agreements/employment-contracts


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> No one can pay you less than the award even if you go into an employment agreement.
> http://www.fairwork.gov.au/awards-and-agreements/employment-contracts


 I have never said that you can get payed less than the award.

What I am saying is that the employer can put you on a lesser award

This is how employers get away with paying a person less

Just because you have certain skills does not automatically mean you will be payed the award you have the qualifications for

I was a labourer for a Sparky, employed as a labourer, but in reality I was more qualified then they guys I was working for. But I was employed a a labourer and payed the award for being a labourer. There was another bloke who was a qualified auto electrician. He to was employed a labourer and payed the award as a labourer

Why where we doing these jobs. Simple really. There was **** all work and bills had to be paid

I have skills sets that could put me on nearly twice what I earn now, but there are no jobs out there available at present.

But I suppose I could have always gone on the dole instead

I know you dont believe it, but it does happen

So stop banging on about your utopian ideals. What you think and what is reality are 2 very different things


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## manticle (30/8/15)

It's your fault stu.
Just work harder and maybe open up a mine or something.


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## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

I know a bloke who's a supervisor for a project builder (a client of mine) and what he told me, was that he went into his bosses office on a Thursday and said if he won't up his pay to 100 thousand a year he's not coming back on Monday.

He got his increase.

I wouldn't have put it that way myself, but if you are worth it, I guess you can demand it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> It's your fault stu.
> Just work harder and maybe open up a mine or something.


Your right. Its my fault for not opening up a mine subsidised by the taxpayer and becoming rich by employing overseas cheap labour . Stupid, stupid me


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I know a bloke who's a supervisor for a project builder (a client of mine) and what he told me, was that he went into his bosses office on a Thursday and said if he won't up his pay to 100 thousand a year he's not coming back on Monday.
> 
> He got his increase.
> 
> I wouldn't have put it that way myself, but if you are worth it, I guess you can demand it.


You can demand it. But most of the time you will get shown the door.

But It does happen to the lucky few


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## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

I disagree, if someone does their job well, they are an asset and get paid accordingly. 



Edit: I don't agree with the way he 'said' he did it, but he believed he was worth it.


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## Burt de Ernie (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I disagree, if someone does their job well, they are an asset and get paid accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I don't agree with the way he 'said' he did it, but he believed he was worth it.


Is a 100k a lot for a supervisor?

Any tradie capable of supervising can run his own business and earn heaps more..


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I disagree, if someone does their job well, they are an asset and get paid accordingly.


But not all employers are like that

Some yes, all no

I recently got a nice pay rise for doing a great job and working for it, but I am lucky that my employer sees it like that. I have had other employers who dont give a **** how hard you work. If you put your hand out they will replace you.

The sparky I worked for sacked both of us labours because he could make more money out of the 2 apprentices he put on because they where cheaper to pay and he got a gov subsidy as well. He was only looking at his bottom line. He didnt give 2 fucks about who was doing the work

I have seen both sides of the coin.


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## Burt de Ernie (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But not all employers are like that
> 
> Some yes, all no
> 
> ...


This is true but only because you hadn't offered him any more value than an apprentice.


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## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Is a 100k a lot for a supervisor?
> 
> Any tradie capable of supervising can run his own business and earn heaps more..


I can't comment on whether it's above the industry standard.

I have spoken to a couple of other supervisors and subcontractors who say their rate hasn't increased for the last 10 years or more, which I find hard to believe myself, but they wouldn't say it if it wasn't the case I suppose.

Maybe they just need to ask.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is true but only because you hadn't offered him any more value than an apprentice.


Oh dont worry. I did and he knew it.

I was stupid enough to pull more than my weight, along with the others

It came down to how much he could screw out of us. Even his most loyal blokes saw what was going on.

Didnt stop him. He didnt care. It all came down to the bottom line


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## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But not all employers are like that
> 
> Some yes, all no
> 
> ...


Dunno, I've had people work for me that I've begged to stay and others that I couldn't care less if they got hit by a bus crossing the road.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I have spoken to a couple of other supervisors and subcontractors who say their rate hasn't increased for the last 10 years or more, which I find hard to believe myself, but they wouldn't say it if it wasn't the case I suppose.


Wonder what would happen of all those blokes walked in and wanted $100k...

Wonder how many would get it.....I would say the % would be rather low


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## manticle (30/8/15)

BDD - that example is one bloke who is already in a position of power and to refuse his demand would be more effort and money than it's worth. I bet he wasn't on 35,000 prior and I bet it would have been different if he asked for 180k.

I've been in a position to negotiate when I've been confident but likewise I've been at the other end. Depends on so many things, including the foresight of the manager but stu is talking about people forced to take positions they are overqualified for due to a lack of work.
Replaceable. Your supervisor friend much less so.
It just isn't that simple. If you are an asset, you should be paid accordingly rather than will be.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Dunno, I've had people work for me that I've begged to stay


Maybe you should have offered them $100k pa


----------



## manticle (30/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is true but only because you hadn't offered him any more value than an apprentice.


Crap. Same thing happened to me when I was working in kitchens. Owner realised he could pay an apprentice half, despite the warnings of the chef and let me go. Apprentice was a lazy, untalented good for nothing and within 12 months the chef had offerred me my old job back.

Wasn't because I had no value - it's because the value wasn't apparent to the owner (very apparent to the chef - I stayed till he left 2 years later, became sous chef in that time, then ran the place afterwards while the owner looked for a buyer for the business he couldn't make work) . Like buying an ozito over a festool.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> people forced to take positions they are overqualified for due to a lack of work.


As Eric Abetz said, if there are less jobs available, then you need to apply for more jobs

Bit like the old joke of the guy behind the counter at McDonalds having a better degree than you do


----------



## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

I couldn't say how it would work out for any one else.

The bloke I know who did ask for more, has been with the company for only about 18 months and he was genuinely pissed off about some things at the time and was surprised when his boss accepted his demand.

He would have been on more than 35k, no doubt, but I didn't ask him what he was on. I don't ask people how much they're earning.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

manticle said:


> Owner realised he could pay an apprentice half, despite the warnings of the chef and let me go.


 And how many employers do that. Lots. When it comes down to the $$ and the employer can see he can get the same job done for 1/2 the money and make more for himself at the end of the day. What do you think he will do.

You dont become rich by paying money you dont have to


----------



## manticle (30/8/15)

@BDD - sure but you get the idea that one example doesn't make it true across the board I'm guessing?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I couldn't say how it would work out for any one else.


EXACTLY


----------



## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

Of course it doesn't make it true across the board, but if you don't ask you don't get.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> EXACTLY


WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Just making sure you can see the other side of the coin.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (30/8/15)

The reason I said I don't know how it would work out for anyone else, is because I don't know what anyone else's situation is.

Stick with the unions, it seems like it's working out fine.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (30/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And how many employers do that. Lots. When it comes down to the $$ and the employer can see he can get the same job done for 1/2 the money and make more for himself at the end of the day. What do you think he will do.
> 
> You dont become rich by paying money you dont have to[/quote
> Any employer who does has a piece of shit business. Without doubt you would be better off with some one else. This does however seem to be common in building trades


----------



## Burt de Ernie (30/8/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> The reason I said I don't know how it would work out for anyone else, is because I don't know what anyone else's situation is.
> 
> Stick with the unions, it seems like it's working out fine.



Stick with the unions???...stuff that....retrain and go and work for an employer who values your arse. The whole Union scene is way to negative.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Any employer who does has a piece of shit business. Without doubt you would be better off with some one else. This does however seem to be common in building trades


Any employer who does this is a piece of shit and they dont deserve good employees. But what do you do in a very tight labour market. Do you take what you can get to pay the bills or sit back and wait for a decent job with a decent employer and not pay the bills

There is a reason why decent jobs with decent employers dont come around that often. Its because you basically have to wait until someone retires or dies for there to be a position

You cant just say " Go and get a better job with a better employer" If there are no jobs available well you pretty well screwed.

And as for retraining, all well and good, but you are still in the same boat looking for a good employer

Wouldn't it be great if every employer was so wonderful they payed you what you think your worth.

Wouldn't it be wonderful indeed.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have never said that you can get payed less than the award.
> What I am saying is that the employer can put you on a lesser award
> This is how employers get away with paying a person less
> Just because you have certain skills does not automatically mean you will be payed the award you have the qualifications for
> I was a labourer for a Sparky, employed as a labourer, but in reality I was more qualified then they guys I was working for. But I was employed a a labourer and payed the award for being a labourer. There was another bloke who was a qualified auto electrician. He to was employed a labourer and payed the award as a labourer


You should have explained yourself better in the fist place, if you are an electrician and you go for a job as a labourer then that is what you will be paid as, you can't expect to be paid as anything else other than what you were employed to be.
As for being laid off and 2 apprentices doing the job, it wouldn't have anything to do with the subsidy because that subsidy goes into the profit and loss, the government give it out with one hand and take it back with the other.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Any employer who does this is a piece of shit and they dont deserve good employees.
> 
> You cant just say " Go and get a better job with a better employer" If there are no jobs available well you pretty well screwed.


The employee is not a piece of shit. They are more than likely it a tight market along with you.

Obviously better jobs are not always there when you need them and sometimes you have to take any job you can to make ends meet. But you are in a tight low skilled market and you are not taking necessary steps to even attemp to better position yourself then you should be complaining about yourself and not your boss. Let's face it, it is most likely he had made that decision to better the position of the company. If the decision ends up being a good one, the employer will then have skilled up two individuals.

Me for example, I have a fantastic job with a fantastic boss who I know will fight to keep me however, I'm just about to start to retrain....again for the fourth time. Not because I plan to leave any time soon and not because I like missing my family and studying at night, but because I believe that in this day and age i cannot be stagnant with my skills. Because I do this I know that I'll never be out of a job.

Like I tell my kids over and over "studying gives you options".

Edit: spelling


----------



## Camo6 (31/8/15)

Don't know why everyone's so negative on the unions (well I kind of do). I'm with a great employer working under the ETU EBA. Awesome conditions that a domestic mate will never see no matter how good his employer is.


----------



## JDW81 (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You cant just say " Go and get a better job with a better employer" If there are no jobs available well you pretty well screwed.


Yes you can. Just ask Tony. Apparently if you want to make more money, just go out and get a better job. It is as easy as that.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As for being laid off and 2 apprentices doing the job, it wouldn't have anything to do with the subsidy because that subsidy goes into the profit and loss, the government give it out with one hand and take it back with the other.


The words out of his mouth where " I can make more money from 2 apprentices" He still charged the same hourly rate for the apprentice to be on site as a he charged for a tradesman


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Obviously better jobs are not always there when you need them and sometimes you have to take any job you can to make ends meet. But you are in a tight low skilled market and you are not taking necessary steps to even attemp to better position yourself then you should be complaining about yourself and not your boss.


So does one go for jobs that dont exist ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> You have a lot of faith in the system weal.


Well if we are talking about the Westminster system yes I do, if we are talking about the Fair Work system, then I don't, they govern in support of the worker, which is understandable as most of the FWA are ex union reps.


----------



## Dave70 (31/8/15)

C'mon. We can crack 50 for sure.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Don't know why everyone's so negative on the unions (well I kind of do). I'm with a great employer working under the ETU EBA. Awesome conditions that a domestic mate will never see no matter how good his employer is.


I have 5 brothers 1 doesn't like work,2 are plumbers, 1 specialises in cooling and heating, the other specialises in roofing, 1 is a mechanic who likes to specialise in turbo's the youngest is a domestic electrician who specialises in how many housewives he can lay.


----------



## shaunous (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have 5 brothers 1 doesn't like work,2 are plumbers, 1 specialises in cooling and heating, the other specialises in roofing, 1 is a mechanic who likes to specialise in turbo's the youngest is a domestic electrician* who specialises in how many housewives he can lay.*



I used to be like your youngest brother. Then I realised I'd have a wife one day, I suddenly felt sorry for all them husbands, or did I, I don't know, it was a long time ago.



p.s. Vote LNP


----------



## Dave70 (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have 5 brothers 1 doesn't like work,2 are plumbers, 1 specialises in cooling and heating, the other specialises in roofing, 1 is a mechanic who likes to specialise in turbo's the youngest is a domestic electrician who specialises in how many housewives he can lay.


Knew I should have been a sparky. Plumbing was never like the pornos led me to believe.


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Not seen much dutch porn then Dave?


----------



## pcmfisher (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Are they watching Tony on the big screen 4G TV now.
> 
> *I really must do some thing about my old cathode-ray TV. *
> 
> Maybe I will see Tony in a different perspective B)


What? Didn't you buy a 42" plasma with the money KRudd handed out to everyone to save Australia?

Everyone else did apparently. Well not the ones that put it in the pokies..........


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/15)

Gerry Harvey loved that part of the stimulus package something fierce.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Knew I should have been a sparky. Plumbing was never like the pornos led me to believe.


Sounds like the only plunger you got to use was the one for unblocking sinks. Dammit.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Gerry Harvey loved that part of the stimulus package something fierce.


As much as he likes the 2 years interest free :lol:


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/15)

Off topic, but slightly related to the thread: I've been on holidays in NZ for a week so the only Australian news I've been exposed to is from Sky's 24hr news channel. It really is a great little sympathetic soap box for the current government.


----------



## madpierre06 (31/8/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Off topic, but slightly related to the thread: I've been on holidays in NZ for a week so the only Australian news I've been exposed to is from Sky's 24hr news channel. It really is a great little sympathetic soap box for the current government.


Try watching Fox News


----------



## Dave70 (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Not seen much dutch porn then Dave?


30% of the Netherlands sits below sea level. I assume a man whos handy with laying pipe is quite desirable.


----------



## Dave70 (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Sounds like the only plunger you got to use was the one for unblocking sinks. Dammit.


Flanno. Ruggers. Footy socks and boots encrusted in shit and clay.
Whats not to love?


----------



## Dave70 (31/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What? Didn't you buy a 42" plasma with the money KRudd handed out to everyone to save Australia?
> 
> Everyone else did apparently. Well not the ones that put it in the pokies..........


I accessorized my Hyundai with genuine parts I purchased on the internet.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

Dyson Heydon rejects unions bias claims, good on him.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/15)

Apprehended bias mate.


----------



## Camo6 (31/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Knew I should have been a sparky. Plumbing was never like the pornos led me to believe.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mViO9mnCTBo


----------



## JDW81 (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Dyson Heydon rejects unions bias claims, good on him.


I'm not a unionist and still maintain the perception of bias makes his position untenable. 

If, as a doctor I speak at a pharmaceutical company funded event then go ahead and prescribe their medications I would be accused of bias and my credibility would be questioned as to whether I was doing the right thing for my patients or just peddling the pills of a billion dollar multi-national. There would be huge questions over whose interests I was serving. 

By accepting an offer to speak at a liberal party fund raiser Dyson Heydon ceases to become impartial and questions need to be asked as to whose interests he is serving.


----------



## goomboogo (31/8/15)

His ruling regarding apprehended bias is technically correct. However, like many matters in law, such technicalities are subject to interpretation. The interpretation of 'an informed person etc" allows him to make this ruling. We mere members of the great unwashed are not considered informed for the purposes of deciding the existence of bias, perceived or otherwise.

I don't believe Heydon is free of potential bias in this matter but his ruling is supported by the law.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (31/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> By accepting an offer to speak at a liberal party fund raiser Dyson Heydon ceases to become impartial and questions need to be asked as to whose interests he is serving.


He was only going to speak to a bunch of legal eagles, he wasn't going there to drum up support for the LNP, even if the union take it further and mange to get him ousted who's to say that someone could be appointed who is so far right that they would make The Monday Club look like a bunch of socialists


----------



## seamad (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> He was only going to speak to a bunch of legal eagles, he wasn't going there to drum up support for the LNP, even if the union take it further and mange to get him ousted who's to say that someone could be appointed who is so far right that they would make The Monday Club look like a bunch of socialists


So you've got the gig ? h34r:


----------



## JDW81 (31/8/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> He was only going to speak to a bunch of legal eagles, he wasn't going there to drum up support for the LNP, even if the union take it further and mange to get him ousted who's to say that someone could be appointed who is so far right that they would make The Monday Club look like a bunch of socialists


Wasn't going to drum up support for the LNP at a gazetted LNP fund raiser?

Like giving money to the unions and saying you aren't supporting Labor.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Don't know why everyone's so negative on the unions (well I kind of do). I'm with a great employer working under the ETU EBA. Awesome conditions that a domestic mate will never see no matter how good his employer is.


I'm not negative on unions. They have done amazing things for Australia and even though I have never been a great advocate, they and their members have without doubt contributed to the great work conditions I now enjoy.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The words out of his mouth where " I can make more money from 2 apprentices" He still charged the same hourly rate for the apprentice to be on site as a he charged for a tradesman


I consider this good business.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Knew I should have been a sparky. Plumbing was never like the pornos led me to believe.


Plumbing is the best job............to sit and watch someone else do.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> 30% of the Netherlands sits below sea level. I assume a man whos handy with laying pipe is quite desirable.


I'm Dutch and I have a plumbing trade yet I struggle to see my self as someone (else`s) desire....


----------



## goomboogo (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I consider this good business.


So, you consider allowing an unsupervised apprentice to complete electrical work, potentially beyond their capabilities, as good business practice. It horrifies me seeing apprentices and newly minted tradespeople on building sites attempting to perform work that is obviously beyond their capability.


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Treat staff badly, rip off clients.
Great business practice. **** yeah.


----------



## Tropico (31/8/15)

Bronwyn Bishop for PM!


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> So, you consider allowing an unsupervised apprentice to complete electrical work, potentially beyond their capabilities, as good business practice. It horrifies me seeing apprentices and newly minted tradespeople on building sites attempting to perform work that is obviously beyond their capability.


What is you source?

The apprentices were supervised. Their boss had a license.

Apprentices are the back bone of many trade based businesses. A majority of apprentices will do their time with one company then move on to bigger and better things. I know this because this is the path that I travelled and I'm still friends with the 5 other apprentices that I worked with whilst doing my time.

Thank **** there wasn't some un-qualified laborer there to leach my job.


----------



## goomboogo (31/8/15)

Tropico said:


> Bronwyn Bishop for PM!


You're short selling her. Nothing less than the papacy will suffice.


----------



## JDW81 (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> The apprentices were supervised. Their boss had a license.


Just because their boss had a licence doesn't mean they were adequately supervised, it just means it's his nuts on the block if there is fault.


----------



## Tropico (31/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> You're short selling her. Nothing less than the papacy will suffice.


Yep, Bronwyn Bishop, the first female Pope, hip hip.....


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Treat staff badly, rip off clients.
> Great business practice. **** yeah.


Fair go. Firstly, The guy sound like he has put numerous apprentices through their trade and secondly you have no idea how he charged his clients.

Why on earth would you expect a business owner to carry a laborer that is not required?


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

I'm all for training and investing time and money in apprenticeships. How I read it (based entirely on the information given and in part my own experience detailed earlier) is that the boss was less interested in investing in the future of apprentices and more interested in cutting corners and increasing short term profits.
I hope I'm wrong in every circumstance in which this has occurred.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> Just because their boss had a licence doesn't mean they were adequately supervised, it just means it's his nuts on the block if there is fault.


Wait.....isn't this how trade businesses work?

You think he should not have trainees doing the work but an un-qualified laborer?

I'm so confused...


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> I'm all for training and investing time and money in apprenticeships. How I read it (based entirely on the information given and in part my own experience detailed earlier) is that the boss was less interested in investing in the future of apprentices and more interested in cutting corners and increasing short term profits.
> I hope I'm wrong in every circumstance in which this has occurred.


I know for a fact that if I were not a dirt cheap apprentice and my boss tight arse, I would not be where I am today.


----------



## JDW81 (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> You think he should not have trainees doing the work but an un-qualified laborer?


That's not what I said, nor implied.


----------



## spog (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Treat staff badly, rip off clients.
> Great business practice. **** yeah.


If,only if I had a dollar for every time I have witnesses or heard of this in the building trade I would be well off indeed. Not joking,how some ( self proclaimed ) tradies can sleep at night to me beggars belief .


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

spog said:


> If,only if I had a dollar for every time I have witnesses or heard of this in the building trade I would be well off indeed. Not joking,how some ( self proclaimed ) tradies can sleep at night to me beggars belief .


You would be rich enough to employ me...haha.

But lets face it.......good tradie rarely equals good businessman. What decent business man would ever invest in a trade business?


----------



## spog (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> You would be rich enough to employ me...haha.
> 
> But lets face it.......good tradie rarely equals good businessman. What decent business man would ever invest in a trade business?


Bang on the money,I've been in construction for 36 yrs and I'm not joking when I say..no state that it all comes down to cost,**** professional quality it's cost and trying to make a living out of it is an up hill battle.
Can't wait to leave it behind me,the changes I have witnessed in my time are numerous but i guess it's the world/ society we all live in now,i myself still do marvel at the abilities and knowledge of many of the " old " tradies ( now gone) that I worked with when I first started.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What? Didn't you buy a 42" plasma with the money KRudd handed out to everyone to save Australia?
> 
> Everyone else did apparently. Well not the ones that put it in the pokies..........


No I didnt do anything of the above.

Pram, cot, blankets, clothes, stuff...lots of stuff only useful for babies.....

Know way on gods earth I could even afford beers at the pub they cost so much, let alone a flat screen TV.

Thank god I was brewing more than I thought I could drink

TIP: Baby formula tins hold 1kg nicely. In fact the first ring from the top is exactly 1kg. I didn,t even use scales in the end.

Must have had 30-40 tins full of everything from Vienna-Xtal-choc-Roast Barley 




Anyway...back to the show h34r:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Dave70 said:


> Flanno. Ruggers. Footy socks and boots encrusted in shit and clay.
> Whats not to love?


Didnt know you made Mr July


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

goomboogo said:


> So, you consider allowing an unsupervised apprentice to complete electrical work, potentially beyond their capabilities, as good business practice. It horrifies me seeing apprentices and newly minted tradespeople on building sites attempting to perform work that is obviously beyond their capability.


I cry sometimes when I see the quality of apprentices and new tradesmen come thru.

I tell blokes that my first 3 months of my apprenticeship involved filing, bluing, drilling, marking...... True & proper hand skills. 

Some of these new guys coming thru scare the bejezzuz out of me. None of the pride in workmanship. Get in, get it done quick, move on...

I think its sad that we have let our skillsets as proper tradesmen decline to the point when a new builder cant even sharpen a ******* chisel properly 


And anyone who doesn't think that apprentices go around doing unsupervised work....even laborers for that matter.......


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Fair go. Firstly, The guy sound like he has put numerous apprentices through their trade and secondly you have no idea how he charged his clients.


2. The 2 he put on to replace me and the other bloke.

And one was a chick. And he got extra ( above the subsidy he already got ) from the tax payer because of it. something to do with getting more females into trades..etc..etc


----------



## goomboogo (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Wait.....isn't this how trade businesses work?
> 
> You think he should not have trainees doing the work but an un-qualified laborer?
> 
> I'm so confused...


You keep mentioning labourers. No one in this thread has said anything about labourers performing the work of qualified tradespeople. I agree with your final sentence in the above post.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I cry sometimes when I see the quality of apprentices and new tradesmen come thru.
> 
> I tell blokes that my first 3 months of my apprenticeship involved filing, bluing, drilling, marking...... True & proper hand skills.
> 
> ...


This is where performance briefs and defect inspections take over. If its not right...pull it out and start again.


----------



## Lemon (31/8/15)

Stu, 
All skills that are history now. No longer current, not required. That's why they are not taught or valued.
Apprentices should be supervised commensurate with their level of skill and training. As you said it is on the license holder's head if anything goes wrong.
The reason that work is done quick, in and out, and training is done to meet those ends, is because that is the expectation that we have built into the society.

We've got what we asked for.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

JDW81 said:


> Just because their boss had a licence doesn't mean they were adequately supervised, it just means it's his nuts on the block if there is fault.


Lot off boss's out there who regularly hug the guillotine.......some have very smooth nuts because of it


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is where performance briefs and defect inspections take over. If its not right...pull it out and start again.


BAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have never said that you can get payed less than the award.
> 
> What I am saying is that the employer can put you on a lesser award
> 
> ...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Lemon said:


> We've got what we asked for.


Unfortunately we have.

As can be seen in the quality of our politicians in general, from ALL sides


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Is what it is....accept it or move on...


----------



## spog (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No I didnt do anything of the above.
> 
> Pram, cot, blankets, clothes, stuff...lots of stuff only useful for babies.....
> 
> ...


Those baby formula tins are indeed handy I still have many in my shed that are 25 yrs old the plastic lids keep dust and crap out of them.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Is what it is....accept it or move on...


Why should we just accept it ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

spog said:


> Those baby formula tins are indeed handy I still have many in my shed that are 25 yrs old the plastic lids keep dust and crap out of them.


I used to store them upside down.

Stopped the mice getting thru the lid


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Why should we just accept it ?


You don't have to I guess.

Maybe we all should start a business and employ twice as many people as needed and pay them all twice as much as the going rate....


----------



## goomboogo (31/8/15)

Lemon said:


> Stu,
> All skills that are history now. No longer current, not required. That's why they are not taught or valued.
> Apprentices should be supervised commensurate with their level of skill and training. As you said it is on the license holder's head if anything goes wrong.
> The reason that work is done quick, in and out, and training is done to meet those ends, is because that is the expectation that we have built into the society.
> ...


We've come to accept planned obsolescence in electrical items such as televisions, phones and fans. If a fan stops working after 2 years we are not surprised and just buy another cheap fan. Many electrical items can be made to last much longer but this doesn't suit current business models. I wonder if one day we will accept such a proposition with residential housing.


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Maybe we should start a business and pay people half the going rate would be a step closer to the truth.
Apprenticeship scheme is a good thing if used properly - ie get experienced staff, get apprentices, train apprentices properly using experienced staff to do so.
Apprentices are not a budget measure - they are an investment which is why they are subsidised.
Could invest in tech colleges again. Would go a long way.

And apprentices get ripped off by unscrupulous employers too.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Apprentices are not a budget measure - they are an investment which is why they are subsidised.


I disagree with this. Their cost effectiveness is what gains their employment and their career.


----------



## spog (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I cry sometimes when I see the quality of apprentices and new tradesmen come thru.
> 
> I tell blokes that my first 3 months of my apprenticeship involved filing, bluing, drilling, marking...... True & proper hand skills.
> 
> ...



" sharpen a ******* chisel properly". Oh,oh now you've got me started....FFS in the last 5 yrs at least I have not worked with one apprentice that knows how to sharpen a chisel let alone set and sharpen a hand saw ! Drives me to despair.
They buy the hardened tooth hand saws ." It only cost $10:00 " and then complain that they are buying 10 per year ! And it's costing them.
To be honest it's the way things are but they are not taught this as the 2 weeks by 4 times a year trade school in Adelaide is a thing of the past. Where we were taught shit.
A bloke visits the site every 2-3 months and checks their modules ( home work books) and questions them on its contents.
Any muppet can bull and bluster through that crap......and....ah **** it,the system wants numbers and the system gets want it wants regardless.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Apprentices are not a budget measure - they are an investment which is why they are subsidised.
> Could invest in tech colleges again. Would go a long way.
> 
> And apprentices get ripped off by unscrupulous employers too.


Training an apprentice is a costly exercise, and not just in terms of money. The time it takes to sit down and show them how to sharpen a chisel properly is time consuming.

A good trainer/mentor will make the time to show some one how its done properly.

Rather than " Here is a youtube clip on how to sharpen a chisel"


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

@burt de ernie: This is what the subsidy is for and using them to replace experienced staff instead of complement goes against the principle of an apprenticeship. From who do they learn?

Once they're qualified and experienced, using your logic they get pissed off and replaced by the next bit of cheap labour, devaluing both experience and training..


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

spog said:


> " sharpen a ******* chisel properly". Oh,oh now you've got me started....FFS in the last 5 yrs at least I have not worked with one apprentice that knows how to sharpen a chisel let alone set and sharpen a hand saw ! Drives me to despair.
> They buy the hardened tooth hand saws ." It only cost $10:00 " and then complain that they are buying 10 per year ! And it's costing them.
> To be honest it's the way things are but they are not taught this as the 2 weeks by 4 times a year trade school in Adelaide is a thing of the past. Where we were taught shit.
> A bloke visits the site every 2-3 months and checks their modules ( home work books) and questions them on its contents.
> Any muppet can bull and bluster through that crap......and....ah **** it,the system wants numbers and the system gets want it wants regardless.


I did my apprenticeship with the NSW Railways. We had a supervisor come around every month and check our Training Log book. We had to do 1 page per week...not to mention they used to also check the Tafe roll to see we where actually turning up.. ( luckily we kept a low profile in the UTS Uni bar....a mere 100mts from our classroom block )

I still surprise many a person with how well I can actually file and use a hacksaw....

I can sharpen a chisel that you could shave with just using a final cut file and some chalk h34r:


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

And you want to teach people the value of work....


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

^ burt and weal


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> @burt de ernie: This is what the subsidy is for and using them to replace experienced staff instead of complement goes against the principle of an apprenticeship. From who do they learn?
> 
> Once they're qualified and experienced, using your logic they get pissed off and replaced by the next bit of cheap labour, devaluing both experience and training..


This is not really true at least not in building services.

Usually it is the third year who teaches the first year and so on. I am not necessarily and advocate but its the way it is.


----------



## Camo6 (31/8/15)

Apprentices do alright. They get paid to learn a trade that will last them their whole working life. When they come out of their time they generally retain their employment.

Beats paying $60,000 for four years of University, living on a low income only to have to find a job when you're finished.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is not really true at least not in building services.
> 
> Usually it is the third year who teaches the first year and so on. I am not necessarily and advocate but its the way it is.


That is truly scary.....


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

It's the way it is is not an excuse. It's not the way it should be. It's not the way it is supposed to be. 

I'm talking about principles.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> And you want to teach people the value of work....


I believe its your parents that teach you this.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That is truly scary.....


What does a first year need to know that a third year cant teach him/her?


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Apprentices do alright. They get paid to learn a trade that will last them their whole working life. When they come out of their time they generally retain their employment.
> 
> Beats paying $60,000 for four years of University, living on a low income only to have to find a job when you're finished.


Tell me about it. Just starting earning enough to start paying it off.

Get a university education they said....mumble, mumble*

*slight asterisk reference


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Camo6 said:


> Apprentices do alright. They get paid to learn a trade that will last them their whole working life. When they come out of their time they generally retain their employment.
> 
> Beats paying $60,000 for four years of University, living on a low income only to have to find a job when you're finished.


True that. I know blokes who went to Uni when I was doing my trade.

Some of them never really got a job, but have a BA..(or whatever it is you get after 4yrs)

But, by the same token, I dont begrudge the ones that put some effort in to Uni and are doing rather nicely now.

Much like an apprentice


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I believe its your parents that teach you this.


I believe all members of society, including but not limited to parents share responsibility. Anyway, if parents have done a good job why should we disillusion them when they come of age?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> What does a first year need to know that a third year cant teach him/her?


I just worked out what your upto 

You Sir, are subtle


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Tell me about it. Just starting earning enough to start paying it off.
> 
> Get a university education they said....mumble, mumble*
> 
> *slight asterisk reference


So you got a job at McDonalds then.......


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

He's trying to sell chocolate covered cotton?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> I believe all members of society, including but not limited to parents share responsibility.


WTF...you mentioned society...

LNP wil lock you up for being a communist

Border Force Patrol are coming for you.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I just worked out what your upto
> 
> You Sir, are subtle


Others call it tactful...


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So you got a job at McDonalds then.......


Not quite but it was a long road and three degrees to get to a point where I earn a wage considered slightly above the mean (very slightly above but I do also love my job). On job experience and attitude (and hard work) at least as valuable as uni, would have been better off financially learning a trade.

Wouldn't swap my life for another as I'm really happy - just not what I was led to believe.


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So you got a job at McDonalds then.......


Actually just got the reference. At one point LNP did drop the payback kpa to low/mid 20s but fortunately the threshold has been much less harsh for a while.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Not quite but it was a long road and three degrees to get to a point where I earn a wage considered slightly above the mean (very slightly above but I do also love my job). On job experience and attitude (and hard work) at least as valuable as uni, would have been better off financially learning a trade.
> 
> Wouldn't swap my life for another as I'm really happy - just not what I was led to believe.


You could have done 3 trades then bought a coal mine...


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

I'm too skinny


----------



## madpierre06 (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Tell me about it. Just starting earning enough to start paying it off.
> 
> Get a university education they said....mumble, mumble*
> 
> *slight asterisk reference


Got it, 'preciated and enjoyed it. 

Wonder if I can get some work withmy brother in law in Lutetia. 

Keep 'em coming.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Coal mining is obviously not for you then


----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Got it, 'preciated and enjoyed it.
> Wonder if I can get some work withmy brother in law in Lutetia.
> Keep 'em coming.


Not sure I can cope with all the little white dogs in this thread.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)




----------



## manticle (31/8/15)

That one is ok.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

manticle said:


> Tell me about it. Just starting earning enough to start paying it off.
> 
> Get a university education they said....mumble, mumble*
> 
> *slight asterisk reference


----------



## madpierre06 (31/8/15)

I'm well qualified to take the position of bard.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

madpierre06 said:


> I'm well qualified to take the position of bard.


But can you pour beer ?


----------



## madpierre06 (31/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But can you pour beer ?


I can multitask....sing badly and pour vile'ish concoctions, my cousin getafix can vouch for that. I thought my coat and whiskers were a giveaway.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Will you work for an award wage...?

Will you take beer as payment ?


----------



## madpierre06 (31/8/15)

I don't need the beer, fell in it as a baby.

I'm happy to work for below award wages as long as my employer can sack me without notice, and dock me any charges he deems necessary for the trouble he has to go to when trying to replace me with someone prepared to accept same or worse conditions on lower pay.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Your Hired.

Bring your own uniform.

....and make sure you go to the toilet before you start work


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/15)

Bloody ABC & Fairfax

Just when they nearly had me convinced and converted to the dark side.......this ruins it for me...can never become LNP...Just...cant....

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2015/7-eleven-revealed/?&utm_source=social&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=nc&eid=socialn:fac-14omn0013-optim-nnn:nonpaid-25062014-social_traffic-all-organicpost-nnn-smh-o&campaign_code=nocode&promote_channel=social_facebook


----------



## JDW81 (1/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> What does a first year need to know that a third year cant teach him/her?


How would it be received if it was a third year medical student teaching a first year medical student how to be a doctor? Not well I'd wager.


----------



## Camo6 (1/9/15)

I was teaching 1st years as a 3rd year in my first apprenticeship as a young buck. In a trade your first year is mainly getting your head around basic processes and lingo while performing menial labour. You're not expected to perform open heart surgery. If I employed a 3rd year who couldn't teach a 1st year I'd be looking at myself to blame. I believe you learn quicker in an apprenticeship than a university degree as you're performing the practical aspect of the job as you learn.

Mods, can we rename this the 'All Topics Thread?'


----------



## Mardoo (1/9/15)

I like refried beans.


----------



## Dave70 (1/9/15)

manticle said:


> *Maybe we should start a business and pay people half the going rate* would be a step closer to the truth.
> Apprenticeship scheme is a good thing if used properly - ie get experienced staff, get apprentices, train apprentices properly using experienced staff to do so.
> Apprentices are not a budget measure - they are an investment which is why they are subsidised.
> Could invest in tech colleges again. Would go a long way.
> ...


Funny you should say that.
Funny unless of course you're a student on a work visa.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2015/08/30/4301164.htm


----------



## Coalminer (1/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I cry sometimes when I see the quality of apprentices and new tradesmen come thru.
> 
> I tell blokes that my first 3 months of my apprenticeship involved filing, bluing, drilling, marking...... True & proper hand skills.
> 
> ...


Common practice in the 60's
I worked unsupervised for the whole of my 5th year of apprenticeship and most of the time supervised new apprentices


----------



## Lemon (1/9/15)

Re: my recent experience with apprentices,
A comment was made above about doing your time in the railways. Unfortunately large employers with a social conscience no longer exist. Ie. The railways, the BHPs of the world, who used to put on 200 apprentices a year are long gone.
Most apprentices now are employed by a training college who places them in work piecemeal, and they get pushed pillar to post. Some lucky ones stay with a larger employer for their time. Few , some do, get kept on at the end of their time in this situation.
The wheel is slowing turning, as older tradesmen retire or leave and the value of properly breeding your own trades is seen as useful, some of these employers are putting on trades apprentices themselves.

Probably 5-10 years ago it was truely awful, no apprentices put on at all. The only elecos being trained were those in the IT industry, and they came out as fully qualified cable pullers, who had difficulty wiring a GPO.

Some trades are dying, if you wanted to be a boilermaker you would struggle to find employment as fully qualified. As a welder, yes.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (1/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> How would it be received if it was a third year medical student teaching a first year medical student how to be a doctor? Not well I'd wager.


Irrelevant comment because only universities can teach degrees. Being a doctor is a "qualification" i.e. you must have completed a doctorate whereas being a third year apprentice is not a qualification however, a third year medical student could definitely teach the practical side to a first year student. This of course does not take into account the multiple levels of qualifications required in any medically related job.

Anyways, I thought we were talking about tradies.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (1/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> We've come to accept planned obsolescence in electrical items such as televisions, phones and fans. If a fan stops working after 2 years we are not surprised and just buy another cheap fan. Many electrical items can be made to last much longer but this doesn't suit current business models. I wonder if one day we will accept such a proposition with residential housing.


Residential housing went through that stage, after the war the prefabs weren't meant to last, some years ago a guy bought one in Williamstown with the intention of knocking it down, only to find a preservation had been put on it for historical interest.


----------



## Dave70 (1/9/15)

Huge shortage of brickies at the moment. Good tradies are getting up to and over $1 per brick and can do 1300 bricks per day standing on their ear. 
Sadly for young folk, you dont get to start on 100,000k per year so you may have to put in the hard yards for a while. 
But never mind. Sure there will be a bunch of contractors only to happy to sponsor foreign workers on 457 visas to fill the gap while your time doing a B of A and taking a gap year.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (1/9/15)

manticle said:


> Not quite but it was a long road and three degrees to get to a point where I earn a wage considered slightly above the mean (very slightly above but I do also love my job). On job experience and attitude (and hard work) at least as valuable as uni, would have been better off financially learning a trade.
> 
> Wouldn't swap my life for another as I'm really happy - just not what I was led to believe.


Just remember money can't buy you happiness but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.


----------



## Airgead (1/9/15)

You can't buy happiness... but you can rent a reasonable approximation for a while.

Actually you can't. Lots of studies have shown that as we gain more in material possessions, our level of happiness goes down. the only people who gain happiness from more stuff are the ones who have absolutely nothing.Once basic needs are met and we are comfortable, extra stuff doesn't make you any happier.

What does bring happiness are family, a sense of belonging to a strong community, a sense of purpose in what you do, a level of autonomy in controlling your life, gaining mastery in skills.

All the things we now devalue in favor of making more money to buy more shit that just makes us more miserable....


----------



## seamad (1/9/15)

You don't see Gina smile too much, and even then she's tried to pinch her kids money, seems no amount of money is enough.


----------



## Airgead (1/9/15)

And Rupert looks like a bundle of fun doesn't he...


----------



## seamad (1/9/15)

almost as much fun as gerard henderson and his equally terrible wife, imagine going to a dinner party with them, I'd van gogh my ears with a spoon and stick bread rolls in the wounds


----------



## Dave70 (1/9/15)

The always miserable, Richard Branson.







{edit - Thats Branson, not Bronson}


----------



## Airgead (1/9/15)

True... but for Sir Ric, its not so much about the pursuit of money and power, its about doing something he believes in and having a good time. The fact that it makes money is a bonus. He started Virgin records out of frustration at not being able to get good music due to restrictive sales policies that increased prices. it became a success because he gave people what they wanted - good music at fair prices.



> My interest in life comes from setting myself huge, apparently unachievable challenges and trying to rise above them ... from the perspective of wanting to live life to the full, I felt that I had to attempt it.


----------



## Coalminer (1/9/15)

Airgead said:


> You can't buy happiness... but you can rent a reasonable approximation for a while.
> 
> Actually you can't. Lots of studies have shown that as we gain more in material possessions, our level of happiness goes down. the only people who gain happiness from more stuff are the ones who have absolutely nothing.Once basic needs are met and we are comfortable, extra stuff doesn't make you any happier.
> 
> ...



Rubbish

I was happy with K&K and bottling

then I got kegs and was a lot happier

Then I got a Braumeister and went all-grain

Now I'm a a bloody lot happier

The only thing money can't buy is poverty


----------



## wide eyed and legless (1/9/15)

Airgead said:


> What does bring happiness are family, a sense of belonging to a strong community, a sense of purpose in what you do, a level of autonomy in controlling your life, gaining mastery in skills.
> 
> All the things we now devalue in favor of making more money to buy more shit that just makes us more miserable....


There is no need to devalue what you said in your first sentence, though it does happen sadly to most people, if it hadn't been for my wife telling me to take time out 2 1/2 years ago so I could get to know my daughters I am sure I wouldn't have a family, and be leading a miserable life, I didn't even have time to sit on a computer when I was working, not for reasons other than work related. 
I have put this poem in a post before, it was in all our bedrooms, back of the toilet door and on top of the trophy cabinet our Dad put them up to give us a winning attitude to sport, but it is also a good outlook to have on life.

Thinking
If you think you are beaten, you are
If you think you dare not, you don't,
If you like to win, but you think you can't
It is almost certain you won't.

If you think you'll lose, you're lost
For out of the world we find,
Success begins with a fellow's will
It's all in the state of mind.

If you think you are outclassed, you are
You've got to think high to rise,
You've got to be sure of yourself before
You can ever win a prize.

Life's battles don't always go
To the stronger or faster man,
But soon or late the man who wins
Is the man WHO THINKS HE CAN!


----------



## Elz (1/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Huge shortage of brickies at the moment. Good tradies are getting up to and over $1 per brick and can do 1300 bricks per day standing on their ear.
> .


For how long? 

Brick-laying robot on the job in Victoria:
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/money/business/2013/11/07/brick-laying-robot-on-the-job-in-victor/3469565/

Lays 3000 bricks a day


----------



## wide eyed and legless (1/9/15)

Not very good at pointing apparently.


----------



## Airgead (1/9/15)

Coalminer said:


> Rubbish
> 
> I was happy with K&K and bottling
> 
> ...


Come on... everyone knows all grain is a basic need....

But on a more serious note, your progression from K&K to all grain and the happiness it brought you was more about mastery and purpose than money. The increase in your brewing skills would have made you just as happy on a bolted together gravity fed system knocked up out of scavenged parts as it did n a shiny new braumeister.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Huge shortage of brickies at the moment. Good tradies are getting up to and over $1 per brick and can do 1300 bricks per day standing on their ear.


Enough to make a bloke give up plumbing


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Sadly for young folk, you dont get to start on 100,000k per year so you may have to put in the hard yards for a while.


Reminds me of when I started my apprenticeship. I think the total that year was about 6-700....Thats not bullshit either. That where all trades from sign writers - upholsters - sparkys - fitters . All in the one big building

There was on particular group of a particular ethnic mix ( whom I wont name for fear of being racist but they where .....) who drove hotted up Gemini's, and wore jewelry, who did nothing but whinge and carry on about how they where leaving to work for more money at McD's.

The instructors had an open door policy. You where where open to walk out the door never to return. The instructors didn't care if you left, was your choice. They where more interested in teaching the apprentices who wanted to be there. They actually factored in an attrition rate with the intake. Nothing to have 60-70 leave every year.

By our 4th year we where earning more than the guys who left


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

Airgead said:


> You can't buy happiness... but you can rent a reasonable approximation for a while.
> 
> Actually you can't. Lots of studies have shown that as we gain more in material possessions, our level of happiness goes down.


No wonder I am so happy. I dont own very much.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

Haha...Just heard the best description of Mark Latham on SBS tonight.

" Australia's professional angry white man "


----------



## Burt de Ernie (1/9/15)

Airgead said:


> You can't buy happiness... but you can rent a reasonable approximation for a while.
> 
> Actually you can't. Lots of studies have shown that as we gain more in material possessions, our level of happiness goes down. the only people who gain happiness from more stuff are the ones who have absolutely nothing.Once basic needs are met and we are comfortable, extra stuff doesn't make you any happier.
> 
> ...


Obviously this study was undertaken by someone with no coin.


----------



## spog (1/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Huge shortage of brickies at the moment. Good tradies are getting up to and over $1 per brick and can do 1300 bricks per day standing on their ear.
> Sadly for young folk, you dont get to start on 100,000k per year so you may have to put in the hard yards for a while.
> But never mind. Sure there will be a bunch of contractors only to happy to sponsor foreign workers on 457 visas to fill the gap while your time doing a B of A and taking a gap year.


1300 per day would be " roughs" not face bricks,face being the finished product,roughs being unseen.
1300 a day is a cracking pace and not having a go but , I have never in my years in building seen any brickie lay 1300 in a day ,never.


----------



## manticle (1/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Obviously this study was undertaken by someone with no coin.


Maybe you should try reading it.


----------



## Tropico (1/9/15)

52 pages. WOW, it looks like Bronwyn is more interesting than beer.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

Beer....what do you mean....what is this beer you speak off


----------



## butisitart (1/9/15)

Tropico said:


> 52 pages. WOW, it looks like Bronwyn is more interesting than beer.


bronwyn is not more interesting than beer.
another comment like this and i shall be morally obliged to report you to a higher authority.....
the MODERATOR


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

butisitart said:


> bronwyn is not more interesting than beer.
> another comment like this and i shall be morally obliged to report you to a higher authority.....
> the MODERATOR


There worse than politicians....mods have actual power

But we have spent 52 pages on this thread, which is probably more than all the beer threads on here put together h34r:


----------



## Tropico (1/9/15)

Frick, I spent so much time reading here .... I'm almost out of beer!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/15)

You wouldn't even raise a thirst just reading the beer threads...


----------



## manticle (1/9/15)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0koz0lGfyrg


----------



## shaunous (2/9/15)

Jeez you guys dribble shit.


----------



## Dave70 (2/9/15)

spog said:


> 1300 per day would be " roughs" not face bricks,face being the finished product,roughs being unseen.
> 1300 a day is a cracking pace and not having a go but , I have never in my years in building seen any brickie lay 1300 in a day ,never.


That did sound on the high side when I looked at it and figured it was just my memory predictably failing. Then I dug up this article that puts the figure even higher. 
Even for 1300, that puts it at around a brick every 24 seconds for an 8 hour day, 1500 gets it down to around 1 every 20. Thats straight laying, no smoko or counter lunch included.

Could the Tele be (gulp..) guilty of not checking their facts?..

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/huge-demand-for-brickies-much-moolah-to-be-had-for-willing-workers/story-fni0cx12-1227245387308

*That meant getting paid per brick laid, up to $1 a brick, and with good brickies capable of laying 1500 bricks a day, the money mounts up.*

Unless the brickie had 'super hands' that is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usAWvTKplIs


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Could the Tele be (gulp..) guilty of not checking their facts?..


Never. Its only the ABC that dont get their facts right.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (2/9/15)

lololol


----------



## booargy (2/9/15)

Is that the truth or is your news limited


----------



## Dave70 (2/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Never. Its only the ABC that dont get their facts right.


How come you never see them on Media Watch then?


----------



## seamad (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> How come you never see them on Media Watch then?


they copped a bit of flack for the abbott loves anal tweet on Q&A last week or so. He does bunk up with AFP and walk funny, might be something init.


----------



## Dave70 (2/9/15)

seamad said:


> they copped a bit of flack for the abbott loves anal tweet on Q&A last week or so. He does bunk up with AFP and walk funny, might be something init.


Why not give them flack over the whole streaming tweets concept in the first place. If some of the chair moisteners making up the panel arent bad enough, we can all ways rely on a constant stream of dross provided by no life fucktards excited to see their half wittery flash up on the telly. My god i hate it*.#aussiehomebrewer*


----------



## sponge (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Why not give them flack over the whole streaming tweets concept in the first place. If some of the chair moisteners making up the panel arent bad enough, we can all ways rely on a constant stream of dross provided by no life fucktards excited to see their half wittery flash up on the telly. My god i hate it*.#aussiehomebrewer*


Sounds like the words of a die-hard Q&A fan if you ask me h34r:


----------



## RobW (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Why not give them flack over the whole streaming tweets concept in the first place. If some of the chair moisteners making up the panel arent bad enough, we can all ways rely on a constant stream of dross provided by no life fucktards excited to see their half wittery flash up on the telly. My god i hate it*.#aussiehomebrewer*


It's the cult of celebrity. The 15 milliseconds of fame to paraphrase Warhol.
They see their handle come up on the bottom of the screen and suddenly they reckon they're up there with the Kardashians.


----------



## Droopy Brew (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Why not give them flack over the whole streaming tweets concept in the first place. If some of the chair moisteners making up the panel arent bad enough, we can all ways rely on a constant stream of dross provided by no life fucktards excited to see their half wittery flash up on the telly. My god i hate it*.#aussiehomebrewer*


Hear ******* hear.

Dave for PM.


Seriously- I would vote for you.
No offence mate but could we possibly do any worse? Why not give one of the punters a crack at it?


----------



## Dave70 (2/9/15)

sponge said:


> Sounds like the words of a die-hard Q&A fan if you ask me h34r:


Dawkins slapping George Pelle around on the topic of 'morals'. Laurence Krauss bringing a little reason to bear among some creationist zealots. 
Or Hitchens putting the smackdown on some loudmouthed apologist twit. 
The program does have its high points occasionally. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjm31Bvomo


----------



## Dave70 (2/9/15)

Droopy Brew said:


> Hear ******* hear.
> 
> Dave for PM.
> 
> ...


Cool. When elected I shall make you my person in charge of doing things like rigging ballots and procuring rides on helicopters. (nice ones, not the type that look like insects)


----------



## goomboogo (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Dawkins slapping George Pelle around on the topic of 'morals'. Laurence Krauss bringing a little reason to bear among some creationist zealots.
> Or Hitchens putting the smackdown on some loudmouthed apologist twit.
> The program does have its high points occasionally.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjm31Bvomo


Every time I've seen Richard Dawkins debating the issue of religion I've thought, this would be much better if Hitchens was doing the job instead of Dawkins.


----------



## Tropico (2/9/15)

explains everything


----------



## Liam_snorkel (2/9/15)

Citizens assemblies aren't such a bad idea


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Dawkins slapping George Pelle around on the topic of 'morals'. Laurence Krauss bringing a little reason to bear among some creationist zealots.
> Or Hitchens putting the smackdown on some loudmouthed apologist twit.
> The program does have its high points occasionally.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjm31Bvomo


It just hasnt been the same since Abbott banned his front bench members from appearing on it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/9/15)

WEAL......Pls explain

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/national/government-official-proposes-new-hiring-laws-by-eliminating-australian-workers/story-fnj3ty2c-1227508468291


----------



## wide eyed and legless (2/9/15)

Do you believe everything that News.com puts out. :lol:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-02/west-australian-shipping-company-told-to-fire-australians/6742816


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/9/15)

Well of course Abbott is going to deny it....




Oh...and WEAL...whats with this using the ABC as a source.....Are you starting to see the light ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (2/9/15)

Here's another on for you, Shifty is going to have to stop getting rooted by the unions and get ChAFTA passed.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-02/pressure-mounts-for-bill-shorten-to-wave-through-free-trade-deal/6742200


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/9/15)

Jezuz WEAL....2 sources from the ABC in 1 night.

Things are looking up :super:


----------



## wide eyed and legless (3/9/15)

I am probably more surprised than you, maybe the ABC are getting off Shifty's bandwagon, especially after the Four Corners program last week.


----------



## shaunous (3/9/15)

Bolt 4 PM


----------



## Dave70 (3/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Every time I've seen Richard Dawkins debating the issue of religion I've thought, this would be much better if Hitchens was doing the job instead of Dawkins.


Agreed. Dawkins is simply to polite in the face of laughable nonsense at times. No shame in playing second fiddle to one of the most formidable orators of our time though.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (3/9/15)

One of many extraordinary interviews by Riham Said this one against an educated Muslim woman who doubts the teachings of Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcqHlegEC4k


----------



## Dave70 (3/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Citizens assemblies aren't such a bad idea


Only problem being how do you ensure the sortition process isn't corrupt? We'd have to make it like the Powerball draw.


----------



## Droopy Brew (3/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Cool. When elected I shall make you my person in charge of doing things like rigging ballots and procuring rides on helicopters. (nice ones, not the type that look like insects)


Wrong- you will make me Speaker of the house and I shall ride in the helicopters.
Rigging of ballots I may need to sub out- need a degree of separation at least.
I reckon Stu would be good for that.


----------



## pcmfisher (3/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Dawkins slapping George Pelle around on the topic of 'morals'. Laurence Krauss bringing a little reason to bear among some creationist zealots.
> Or Hitchens putting the smackdown on some loudmouthed apologist twit.
> The program does have its high points occasionally.


or Richard Dawkins and Steven Fielding.........

https://youtu.be/-P2mcCVjwS4


----------



## Dave70 (3/9/15)

Droopy Brew said:


> Wrong- you will make me Speaker of the house and I shall ride in the helicopters.
> Rigging of ballots I may need to sub out- need a degree of separation at least.
> I reckon Stu would be good for that.


Fair enough, but no pyramid subcontracting, only delegating. But you'll have to establish a focus group and run it by them first. 



pcmfisher said:


> or Richard Dawkins and Steven Fielding.........
> 
> [yt]-[/yt]



I love how young earthers dismiss define evolution as simply an alternative point of view to creationism.


----------



## technobabble66 (3/9/15)

Just gets better 'n better:

http://m.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/jewish-backlash-after-tony-abbott-says-islamic-state-terrorists-are-worse-than-the-nazis-20150903-gje2el.html


----------



## malt and barley blues (3/9/15)

Don't entirely disagree with him if IS had the armed forces,and the organisational skills of the Germans they could easily put to death far more than what the Germans allegedly put to death in their death camps,and in a shorter time.
Imagine the impact then, blitzkrieg through Iraq,Syria,Jordan ,Lebanon,Israel, Saudi Arabia but fortunately they are just a bunch of thugs who are just lining their own pockets in the name of Islam, or their own interpretation of it.


----------



## JDW81 (3/9/15)

shaunous said:


> Bolt 4 PM


If he ever becomes PM I'm moving to Antarctica.


----------



## JDW81 (3/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> easily put to death far more than what the Germans allegedly put to death in their death camps


Allegedly put to death? I don't think there is much debate about the millions murdered by the nazis.


----------



## malt and barley blues (3/9/15)

A lot to debate about HOW MANY millions were allegedly put to death in the death camps, no one will ever know.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (3/9/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Just gets better 'n better:
> 
> http://m.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/jewish-backlash-after-tony-abbott-says-islamic-state-terrorists-are-worse-than-the-nazis-20150903-gje2el.html


Fair point I say...


----------



## Burt de Ernie (3/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> A lot to debate about HOW MANY millions were allegedly put to death in the death camps, no one will ever know.


I think once you get into the millions its kind of a moot point.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (3/9/15)

shaunous said:


> Bolt 4 PM





JDW81 said:


> If he ever becomes PM I'm moving to Antarctica.


PTC I'd also sui.


----------



## goomboogo (3/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I think once you get into the millions its kind of a moot point.


Why is there a need to keep this point so extremely quite?


----------



## Mardoo (3/9/15)

Because it's so pointy.


----------



## Camo6 (3/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Why is there a need to keep this point so extremely quite?


That's quiet hypocritical.


----------



## goomboogo (3/9/15)

Camo6 said:


> That's quiet hypocritical.


I'm glad someone got it.


----------



## Camo6 (3/9/15)




----------



## Tropico (3/9/15)

You can tell the election is coming. Sophie Mirabella has already started the glossy, full colour ads on prime time TV. No budget crisis for Sophie.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (3/9/15)

Can't stand SM.


----------



## spog (3/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Don't entirely disagree with him if IS had the armed forces,and the organisational skills of the Germans they could easily put to death far more than what the Germans allegedly put to death in their death camps,and in a shorter time.
> Imagine the impact then, blitzkrieg through Iraq,Syria,Jordan ,Lebanon,Israel, Saudi Arabia but fortunately they are just a bunch of thugs who are just lining their own pockets in the name of Islam, or their own interpretation of it.


I went on a tour of Dachau,it was winter it was cold ,but the tour left me cold inside, IS are to me Nazi's in another era,amazing how history does repeat and how people are quick to ...well bury their heads in the sand.


----------



## jlm (3/9/15)

Droopy Brew said:


> Wrong- you will make me Speaker of the house and I shall ride in the helicopters.
> Rigging of ballots I may need to sub out- need a degree of separation at least.
> I reckon Stu would be good for that.


If we're giving away jobs in Dave's brave new Orstaylia, I call Govenor General. Sweet pay, cut ribbons for charity a few times/week, and sign a writ or two once every three years. Dibs.


----------



## manticle (3/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> One of many extraordinary interviews by Riham Said this one against an educated Muslim woman who doubts the teachings of Islam.



That was harder to watch than question time. ****.

Thanks for posting though. I genuinely mean that. Fundamentalism does my head in.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Fair enough, but no pyramid subcontracting, only delegating. But you'll have to establish a focus group and run it by them first.
> 
> 
> I love how young earthers dismiss define evolution as simply an alternative point of view to creationism.


Are you trying to say that the earth was not created..?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

shaunous said:


> Bolt 4 PM


**** yeah.

My Idol ( well since Australian Idol is no longer on TV ). B)


----------



## manticle (3/9/15)

Australians will come to their own conclusions. I don't want to force anyone to think anything.

Really Steve?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

Tropico said:


> You can tell the election is coming. Sophie Mirabella has already started the glossy, full colour ads on prime time TV. No budget crisis for Sophie.


Tony Windsor said that she was the only person he would not miss

Its nice to see Sophie saying that she will try and be a little bit nicer once she is elected


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

Camo6 said:


> FB_IMG_1441271096787.jpg


WEAL...there picking on Tony again.... make them stop, please, for the love of humanity ( and coal )


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> That was harder to watch than question time. ****.


Bill. " Mr Speaker I just want to say one thing , Tony, your a ****"

Tony " I would like to thank the leader of the opposition for pointing out the obvious...but Mr Speaker, the leader of the opposition failed to point out that that I am an absolute ****..shame on the opposition leader...shame "


----------



## manticle (3/9/15)

What's hard about question time is watching a bunch of total losers, who probably had heads deservedly flushed down the toilet at school, fool themselves into thinking that they are funny, witty and ascerbic while realising these wankers are responsible for making (or not) decisions that affect the daily lives of everyone.

That was a rather long sentence and I am now out of breath.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> One of many extraordinary interviews by Riham Said this one against an educated Muslim woman who doubts the teachings of Islam.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcqHlegEC4k


Sounds like Leah Sales interviewing Tony Abbott .....or any politician for that matter....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> What's hard about question time is watching a bunch of total losers, who probably had heads deservedly flushed down the toilet at school, fool themselves into thinking that they are funny, witty and ascerbic while realising these wankers are responsible for making (or not) decisions that affect the daily lives of everyone.
> 
> That was a rather long sentence and I am now out of breath.


I cant believe you actually have watched question time enough to realise its true worth


----------



## manticle (3/9/15)

Well you know I watch Benny Hinn and read Andrew Bolt so QT only just makes the top 10 list of masochistic pastimes.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> Well you know I watch Benny Hinn and read Andrew Bolt so QT only just makes the top 10 list of masochistic pastimes.


Makes a bloke want to join Hillsong


----------



## manticle (3/9/15)

I draw the line at singing along to Guy Sebastian.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> I draw the line at singing along to Guy Sebastian.


Justin Bieber has been there... he has...apparently...oh FFS...Justin Beiber.......I cant believe he made this thread


----------



## Dave70 (4/9/15)

jlm said:


> If we're giving away jobs in Dave's brave new Orstaylia, I call Govenor General. Sweet pay, cut ribbons for charity a few times/week, and sign a writ or two once every three years. Dibs.


Im thinking more along the lines of a republic. We'll be phasing out all this monarchy guff I'm afraid.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (4/9/15)

“_Dennis the Peasant:_ Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. 
_Arthur:_ Be quiet! 
_Dennis:_ You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!” 

Monty Python and The Holy Grail


----------



## madpierre06 (4/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> “_Dennis the Peasant:_ Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
> _Arthur:_ Be quiet!
> _Dennis:_ You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”
> 
> Monty Python and The Holy Grail


Watery tart? So, at least we're back on topic.


----------



## Dave70 (4/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Don't entirely disagree with him if IS had the armed forces,and the organisational skills of the Germans they could easily put to death far more than what the Germans allegedly put to death in their death camps,and in a shorter time.
> Imagine the impact then, blitzkrieg through Iraq,Syria,Jordan ,Lebanon,Israel, Saudi Arabia but fortunately they are just a bunch of thugs who are just lining their own pockets in the name of Islam, or their own interpretation of it.


That was more or less the point I've made in the past in relation to the Palestinian / Israeli conflict. The Jews could thump their neighbors to rubble and barely break a sweat, they simply choose not to. 
What do you imagine would happen if the tactical nuke was on the other foot?

The Nazis have got nothing on IS. You're talking a state driven extreme political ideology that was basically snuffed out within a generation vs a mythology thats been gaining traction and converts for 1300 years that now boasts technical sophistication and a propaganda machine that would have set Joseph Goebbels heart a flutter. 
Pretty sure that the refugees currently drowning in the Mediterranean sea or suffocating in trucks whilst fleeing the Arabian peninsula, Syria, Afghanistan etc aren't on the run from national socialist policy or pogroms also.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/15)

I don't think anyone is arguing that ISIS don't have the potential to be "worse" than the NAZIs, given the capacity.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (4/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> What do you imagine would happen if the tactical nuke was on the other foot?


Could well have been if the Israelis hadn't taken out Assad's nuclear plant some years ago, we know that the Israelis can take care of themselves in the middle east, but what if it couldn't, makes one wonder whether ground troops would be there now.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

A bunch of Jews surrounded by Arab's was never really going to work


----------



## malt and barley blues (4/9/15)

If we can blame anybody we can point the finger at Genghis Khan, he had the opportunity to put the Islamist' s to the sword but chose not to.
,


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/15)

They were nicer then.


----------



## seamad (4/9/15)

no you tube beheadings then ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> WEAL......Pls explain
> 
> http://www.themercury.com.au/news/national/government-official-proposes-new-hiring-laws-by-eliminating-australian-workers/story-fnj3ty2c-1227508468291


WEAL

Round 2.

Whats going on. Did the cruise ship liner get told to sack Australian staff or not. Please set the record straight for us


https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/29420762/no-lie-we-were-told-to-sack-staff/


----------



## seamad (4/9/15)

just part of the plan Stu
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/sep/04/proposed-new-shipping-laws-threaten-loss-of-93-of-seafaring-jobs


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

I thought the LNP where going to create jobs. Maybe I misunderstood what they meant :mellow:


----------



## Vini2ton (4/9/15)

This thread has convinced me that this country could maybe descend into civil war one day. It might help.


----------



## wally (4/9/15)

Vini2ton said:


> This thread has convinced me that this country could maybe descend into civil war one day. It might help.


Yes, but Howard got rid of all of the guns.


----------



## butisitart (4/9/15)

we can still wack each other with 2-up sticks


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)




----------



## madpierre06 (4/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I thought the LNP where going to create jobs. Maybe I misunderstood what they meant :mellow:


They didn't specify for whom.


----------



## spog (4/9/15)

Vini2ton said:


> This thread has convinced me that this country could maybe descend into civil war one day. It might help.


Yeah but no helicopters involved,Bronnie has the market cornered,actually that's a lie choppers are now out of favour because too many people in this country have a problem with the facts.


----------



## JDW81 (4/9/15)

spog said:


> too many people in this country have a problem with the facts.


Even those out of the country. According to Rupert, Tony is the best person in this wide brown land of ours to lead us out of the current mire we're in.

If he's the best we've got we're pretty much screwed.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> They didn't specify for whom.


Probably overseas workers.


----------



## spog (4/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> Even those out of the country. According to Rupert, Tony is the best person in this wide brown land of ours to lead us out of the current mire we're in.
> 
> If he's the best we've got we're pretty much screwed.


Too many blame Tony and or others for this countries woes when the fact is that much of the world ( western/ capitalist or not )is in the same predicament .


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

spog said:


> Too many blame Tony and or others for this countries woes when the fact is that much of the world ( western/ capitalist or not )is in the same predicament .


Is Tony now the leader of the free world

I think where all fucked if he is


----------



## Tony (4/9/15)

Well I thought I was doing a good job?
By the way......... Bronwyn rides a Ducati cause they are over priced girls bikes!


----------



## manticle (4/9/15)

Bronwyn rides Ducati?
No wonder he's so unhappy.


----------



## Tony (4/9/15)

I would have said No wonder she is so unhappy


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

The only thing Ducati about Brony is her Ducati red liptick


----------



## Tony (4/9/15)

straight of Stu's dipstick!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Been wondering what that red ring was...


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> WEAL
> 
> Round 2.
> 
> ...


According to you they did, a labor voter will believe everything they read, that is anti LNP and whatever the unions tell them to believe, it's all hearsay about the cruise ship, he has no proof of a conversation with ministers, if I was going to be a whistle blower I would make sure I had proof before running to newspapers.
If Mr Milby had wrote to the department as claimed one would think he would have had a reply back by either post or email,going to a senate hearing and repeating under oath what he claims he was told wouldn't carry much weight, not with me any way I have sworn under oath many times and have told as much truth as the plaintiff has.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

We should be more concerned, not about some hearsay from a Mr Milby, but about ChAFTA , there only seems to be Shifty and the unions against it, China has given Australia more benefits than it has given any other nation it has a free trade agreement with and Shifty (as he has been instructed by the unions)is ******* about with it.


----------



## malt and barley blues (5/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> They were nicer then.


I doubt they were, they have had there factions since the Islamist religion began and has been going on ever since, going to take years of solid education to change their attitude, repeat after me,"There is no God, there is no life after death"


----------



## seamad (5/9/15)

Not everyone agrees on the benefits of FTAs in the first place

Australia is resilient enough to weather the weakening of the Chinese economy, the Nobel prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has said, but he poured cold water on the benefits of the free trade agreement between the two countries.
Krugman supports free trade, but was sceptical of the benefits of bilateral agreements such as the one between China and Australia.
They were often misleadingly pitched as something that must be done “for the national good”, he said. “It isn’t really – it’s not going to have any major impact on GDP per capita.”
He suggested the Australia-China deal could well be, like the Trans Pacific Partnership, mostly about entrenching the power of monopolies. “Free trade –which on the whole I’m a supporter of – is being used to cover fields that really are not about that at all.”
Krugman also opposed the TPP currently being negotiated, of which Australia’s trade minister, Andrew Robb, is an ardent advocate. It was “not really a trade agreement”, Krugman said, as trade in the Pacific area was “already pretty free in most things”.
Rather, he argued the TPP was mostly about “intellectual property rights and dispute settlements procedures”, for which there were “very clear negative argument that it hurts consumers”.
“If Australia is having problems with selling stuff to the rest of the world it has a pretty straightforward answer, namely it’s got a floating currency. The Aussie dollar goes down and pretty much takes care of itself, so Australia really doesn’t need to worry about that.

The Australian Productivity Commission has also been critical of FTAs


Preferential trade agreements (FTA) add to the complexity and cost of international trade through substantially different sets of rules of origin, varying coverage of services and potentially costly intellectual property protections and investor-state dispute settlement provisions.
The emerging and growing potential for trade preferences to impose net costs on the community presents a compelling case for the final text of an agreement to be rigorously analysed *before* signing. Analysis undertaken for the Japan-Australia agreement reveals a wide and concerning gap compared to the Commission's view of rigorous assessment.
http://www.pc.gov.au/research/recurring/trade-assistance/2013-14/trade-assistance-review-2013-14.pdf


----------



## madpierre06 (5/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I doubt they were, they have had there factions since the Islamist religion began and has been going on ever since, going to take years of solid education to change their attitude, repeat after me,"There is no God, there is no life after death"


a) Yep, they've always had thjeir factions, but their religious side is only one part of what is an ideology which has as it's ultimate aim to piece by piece have the planet under sharia law. Education will not change their attitudes as it is not an actual attitude which they have....it is a cemented way of viewing the world.

b) Not sure about the "There is no God, there is no life after death".....that's your opinion, I have a different belief, but I'm not going to try and educate you to change your attitude.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

If Paul Krugman was so smart how come his worth is so little, New Zealand has increased its exports to China from $2 billion to $8 billion, they have almost the same agreement as Australia regarding labour has any Chinese gone to work on projects, I haven't heard the Kiwis squealing. 
http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/ifa-operation-flowchart.pdf


----------



## goomboogo (5/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If Paul Krugman was so smart how come his worth is so little, New Zealand has increased its exports to China from $2 billion to $8 billion, they have almost the same agreement as Australia regarding labour has any Chinese gone to work on projects, I haven't heard the Kiwis squealing.
> http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/ifa-operation-flowchart.pdf


What specifically in that agreement enabled transactions between New Zealand and China that were hindered or prohibited prior to the agreement? Can you clarify your point about Krugman's worth? Are you referring to his financial position or the value of his analysis?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

The problem with the Chafta is ( and you know this WEAL ) is that there is no legislation saying that the the Chinese have to employ local workers first. That is the issue that the that is become the sticking point

Weather or not the they have to employ local workers comes down to a decision of the Dept of immigration. There is nothing legislated to say they have to. 

This is what the unions are against. The Government of the day could easly direct the Dept of Immigration ( or whatever they get called in the future )

WEAL, you are trying to make us believe that the unions and Labor are totally against the Chafta. This is not true. The are for it, just not the section about bringing in overseas workers above locals.

All the Unions want to do is safeguard local jobs. I cant see how that is unreasonable


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> What specifically in that agreement enabled transactions between New Zealand and China that were hindered or prohibited prior to the agreement? Can you clarify your point about Krugman's worth? Are you referring to his financial position or the value of his analysis?


Well whatever it was that hindered or prohibited transactions prior to the agreement made a $6 billion dollar difference to New Zealands exports to China when it was lifted.
Krugman's worth is his monetary worth, your favorite financial reporter Mr Terry McCrann is worth more than Krugman.

Stu the problem with ChAFTA lies with Shiftys puppet masters the CFMEU, all the state premiers want it passed, Bob Hawke, Bob Carr, Chris Bowen, Martin Ferguson the list from those in the labor camp goes on.
The Australian Industry Group has come out and said the foreign worker visa entry remains very tough and challenging both within and outside the ChAFTA.
Shifty has the arm of the CFMEU jammed firmly up his arse and moving his lips to their tune.

If you really wanted to be concerned about ChAFTA it would be the removal of tariffs that favour protected Chinese industries and remember the labour market works both ways we can go and work over there, especially favourable if you have green eyes.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Stu the problem with ChAFTA lies with Shiftys puppet masters the CFMEU, all the state premiers want it passed, Bob Hawke, Bob Carr, Chris Bowen, Martin Ferguson the list from those in the labor camp goes on.
> The Australian Industry Group has come out and said the foreign worker visa entry remains very tough and challenging both within and outside the ChAFTA.
> Shifty has the arm of the CFMEU jammed firmly up his arse and moving his lips to their tune.


Weal, why cant you accept that the Unions in general have nothing against the Chafta, just the provision to bring in overseas workers in favour of local workers. I know you like union bashing, and its probably the first line on your resume', but what is wrong with having legislation in place that they have to employ local workers first ( or exhuasting the local supply ) before bringing in there own.

There is no legislation do do that, the decision to allow overseas workers is to be made by a government department that can take direction from the government of the day. The dept can simply allow a company to bring in overseas workers without regard to sourcing local one.

I know you trying to dodge this question, but an actual answer would be good for a change instead of carrying on like a politician and avoiding the question


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

I have put this link in 3 times now.
http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/chafta/fact-sheets/Pages/chafta-myths-versus-realities.aspx

Legislation is already in place with the 457 visas why would we need more, the unions are against the agreement because it is a deal negotiated by the LNP, other agreements are in place which are exactly the same.


Have New Zealand had a problem with Chinese workers flooding in and taking jobs NO, is New Zealand better of with their trade agreement with China YES.

I will not be the one left with egg on their face, it will be Shifty and the unions.

There are more pro's than con's, it will mean more job opportunities for Australians, we also now know we can't rely on mining to be the backbone of our exports we have got to concentrate on other means, one being agriculture.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

But there is nothing legislated. That IS the problem


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

from Wikipeadia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_visa

An audit by the Fair Work Ombudsman conducted between Sept 2013 and June 2014 found that 40% of 457 visa holders were no longer employed by a sponsor or were being paid well below the statutory minimum wage of $53,900.[5]
In October 2014, the Abbott government announced that it would making it easier for businesses to apply for 457 visa workers by relaxing rules for English language competency to broaden the pool of potential workers from overseas.[5]
With the commencement of the Japan free-trade agreement in 2015, employers no longer need to offer jobs to locals or prove that none were available to fill vacancies before employing Japanese nationals eligible for 457 visas.[6]
In December 2014, the Department of Immigration and Border Protection released recommendations to relax 457 visa requirements. The recommendations include extending the six month short term work visa to 12 months with no obligation to apply for a 457 visa. The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union (CFMEU) has criticized this change on the grounds that it avoids the 457 visa's requirement for English language and skills tests and employers would not be required to demonstrate they had first tried to fill job vacancies with Australian workers.[7]


I am looking for info to say that an employer MUST have exhuasted ALL avenues of local employemnt before being granted a 457.... No luck as yet WEAL


----------



## goomboogo (5/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Well whatever it was that hindered or prohibited transactions prior to the agreement made a $6 billion dollar difference to New Zealands exports to China when it was lifted.
> Krugman's worth is his monetary worth, your favorite financial reporter Mr Terry McCrann is worth more than Krugman.


The $6 billion dollar difference you refer to was the result of factors largely separate from the trade agreement. The dairy industry made the largest gains in the period to which you refer. Dairy exports did benefit from gradual tariff reductions but these were secondary to demand effects. China's demand for dairy products increased dramatically at the same time as the country's dairy herd was being reduced. It also coincided with issues with tainted milk in China which subsequently increased the desire to import dairy products. The bottom line for New Zealand was driven by an effective marketing position combined with dramatically increased prices.

The forestry industry has also been a significant contributor to the increased trade between New Zealand and China. Once again, this was largely due to factors other than the trade agreement. It was largely due Russia placing a large tax on it's log exports in 2008.

The increases in trade between New Zealand and China are starting to decline. Dairy exports to China are down more than two-thirds since last year. The decline has it's source in the same place as the initial increase. Market economics was the primary contributor. The increase in trade would have occurred whether the trade agreement was in place or not.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But there is nothing legislated. That IS the problem


https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/subclass-457-visa-legislative-instruments


Everyone's trade to China is in decline owing to a lower economic growth rate, even though compared to the rest of the world China's growth rate is still one to be envied.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Changes-to-the-Subclass-457-program

Mid-way through 2012, the department identified that the subclass 457 program was growing at a record rate and that a significant component of this growth has been in industries and geographical regions that do not appear to be experiencing skills shortages. While most employers are using the subclass 457 appropriately, there is a concern that certain employers in some industries are sourcing their skilled labour needs outside of Australia without first checking the availability of labour locally. *While not unlawfu*l, these actions are not in line with the principles of the subclass 457 program


Ahhh...Utopia


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

So you never got past the second paragraph then stu.


----------



## madpierre06 (5/9/15)

Growth rate...sorry mate, I don't rate the term, nothing personal, but there was a time where this phrase didn't exist. If they (China) have grown, at whose personal expense has this happened. Back in the day, everyone who worked hard, had a modicum of motivation, and a decent work ethic, had a FAIR shot at making a buck and buying a HOME to raise a family in. Not now.

Now we have growth rates, economies, FTA's, ******* try and achieve the above without money already behind you and see how you go. No more HOMES, just investment comoddoties which you have very little chance of accessing, jobs which are now part of a bloody MARKET, and try and find one of these that is full time and see how you go. I can still remember losing a job one friday, going to the pub and by end of day had a job teed up to start on monday morning. Try that now. nJust walk around the suprmarkets now, there was a time where those fellas in OUR community who had disabilities/special needs would always be seen either pushing pallets through shopping aisles or trains of trolleys through the carpark, they could access jobs which gave them a sense of self worth in a world in which they had very little other opportunity........they had paying jobs. Have a look now, eh. These jobs are subbied out to other organisations who I am very sure pay a lot less to their current employees who are very seldom of australian heritage.


----------



## Airgead (5/9/15)

Growth is measured in GDP which is a very skewed measure. All it measures is the amount of money moving. Not how much good its doing. Natural disasters like fires are good for GDP because people need to spend money to rebuild. People getting sick is good for GDP because they need to pay for healthcare (especially if they are old because then you don't need to count lost earnings).

The inventor of GDP as a metric said that it would be a really stupid idea to use GDP as the sole measure of an economy and yet here we are doing just that.



> The modern concept of GDP was first developed by Simon Kuznets for a US Congress report in 1934.[6] In this report, Kuznets warned against its use as a measure of welfare...


GDP has been increasing steadily since about 1945. On the other hand, measures like GPI (general progress indicator) have been going backwards since the 70s. More money moving (higher gdp)... less benefit from that (lower GPI).

Sucks eh.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> So you never got past the second paragraph then stu.


Nah, Just cherry picking B)


----------



## madpierre06 (5/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Growth is measured in GDP which is a very skewed measure. All it measures is the amount of money moving. Not how much good its doing. Natural disasters like fires are good for GDP because people need to spend money to rebuild. People getting sick is good for GDP because they need to pay for healthcare (especially if they are old because then you don't need to count lost earnings).
> 
> The inventor of GDP as a metric said that it would be a really stupid idea to use GDP as the sole measure of an economy and yet here we are doing just that.
> 
> ...



Ahh, now I get it. The more or less you can access, the more or less you can move. Thanks for the clarification mate.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Growth is measured in GDP which is a very skewed measure. All it measures is the amount of money moving. Not how much good its doing. Natural disasters like fires are good for GDP because people need to spend money to rebuild. People getting sick is good for GDP because they need to pay for healthcare (especially if they are old because then you don't need to count lost earnings).
> 
> The inventor of GDP as a metric said that it would be a really stupid idea to use GDP as the sole measure of an economy and yet here we are doing just that.
> 
> ...



WAR is also good for GDP. Well the bit after the war is good.

Its sad that they create wars just so people can make money from it


----------



## Tropico (5/9/15)

So I wonder how much it cost us for Julie Bishop to go to the football?


----------



## goomboogo (5/9/15)

Tropico said:


> So I wonder how much it cost us for Julie Bishop to go to the football?


.0001% of annual GDP.


----------



## Tropico (5/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> .0001% of annual GDP.


Oh, that's ok then, it only cost me 8 cents.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

Tropico said:


> Oh, that's ok then, it only cost me 8 cents.


8 cents per second

And she would have to fly from Canberra, cause you know, it has to be official and all that


----------



## jlm (5/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> A bunch of Jews surrounded by Arab's was never really going to work


******* Abraham/Ibrahim. God/Yaweh/Allah should've demanded he kill himself.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Growth rate...sorry mate, I don't rate the term, nothing personal, but there was a time where this phrase didn't exist. If they (China) have grown, at whose personal expense has this happened. Back in the day, everyone who worked hard, had a modicum of motivation, and a decent work ethic, had a FAIR shot at making a buck and buying a HOME to raise a family in. Not now.
> 
> Now we have growth rates, economies, FTA's, ******* try and achieve the above without money already behind you and see how you go. No more HOMES, just investment comoddoties which you have very little chance of accessing, jobs which are now part of a bloody MARKET, and try and find one of these that is full time and see how you go. I can still remember losing a job one friday, going to the pub and by end of day had a job teed up to start on monday morning. Try that now. nJust walk around the suprmarkets now, there was a time where those fellas in OUR community who had disabilities/special needs would always be seen either pushing pallets through shopping aisles or trains of trolleys through the carpark, they could access jobs which gave them a sense of self worth in a world in which they had very little other opportunity........they had paying jobs. Have a look now, eh. These jobs are subbied out to other organisations who I am very sure pay a lot less to their current employees who are very seldom of australian heritage.


Mate you can talk yourself down just as much as you can talk yourself up, you've got to start and look for the positive side of life, not what you feel are the negative sides of your life.


----------



## manticle (5/9/15)

Where'd you get your psychology degree mate? Was it expensive?


----------



## Camo6 (5/9/15)

manticle said:


> Where'd you get your psychology degree mate? Was it expensive?


But how does that make you feel?


----------



## goomboogo (5/9/15)

manticle said:


> Where'd you get your psychology degree mate? Was it expensive?


What? Don't you like the concept of 'I think it is, therefore it is'. This approach helps when your argument falls apart. Logic can take a back seat if you choose to ignore it's existence.


----------



## manticle (5/9/15)

@Camo6 : this is how I feel
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3iOROuTuMA


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

Camo6 said:


> But how does that make you feel?


 Cheap. and not very rich


manticle said:


> Where'd you get your psychology degree mate? Was it expensive?


Not in an LNP market economy.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (5/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Growth rate...sorry mate, I don't rate the term, nothing personal, but there was a time where this phrase didn't exist. If they (China) have grown, at whose personal expense has this happened. Back in the day, everyone who worked hard, had a modicum of motivation, and a decent work ethic, had a FAIR shot at making a buck and buying a HOME to raise a family in. Not now.
> 
> Now we have growth rates, economies, FTA's, ******* try and achieve the above without money already behind you and see how you go. No more HOMES, just investment comoddoties which you have very little chance of accessing, jobs which are now part of a bloody MARKET, and try and find one of these that is full time and see how you go. I can still remember losing a job one friday, going to the pub and by end of day had a job teed up to start on monday morning. Try that now. nJust walk around the suprmarkets now, there was a time where those fellas in OUR community who had disabilities/special needs would always be seen either pushing pallets through shopping aisles or trains of trolleys through the carpark, they could access jobs which gave them a sense of self worth in a world in which they had very little other opportunity........they had paying jobs. Have a look now, eh. These jobs are subbied out to other organisations who I am very sure pay a lot less to their current employees who are very seldom of australian heritage.


Wow....you sound like you have had a few to many knock backs in your life.

Like all environments from the start of time, you either adapt or you fade away.

The question I have for anyone on a rant is what have you done to change or better the situation? In most cases the answer no doubt will end at the rant itself.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> What? Don't you like the concept of 'I think it is, therefore it is'. This approach helps when your argument falls apart. Logic can take a back seat if you choose to ignore it's existence.


 Mine fell apart at post #1. The rest has been purely entertainment at the expense of those who....oh....never mind


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> The question I have for anyone on a rant is what have you done to change or better the situation? In most cases the answer no doubt will end at the rant itself at 59 pages


----------



## manticle (5/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Wow....you sound like you have had a few to many knock backs in your life.
> 
> Like all environments from the start of time, you either adapt or you fade away.
> 
> The question I have for anyone on a rant is what have you done to change or better the situation? In most cases the answer no doubt will end at the rant itself.


What are you talking about?


----------



## Camo6 (5/9/15)

manticle said:


> @Camo6 : this is how I feel
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3iOROuTuMA


Hmm, yes. I'm going to prescribe for you some milk from the milk man's wife's tits and I think we should step the sessions up to twice a week.


----------



## manticle (5/9/15)

My name is Jake. I am 39 years young.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (5/9/15)

manticle said:


> What are you talking about?


Apparently we in the shit because we cant do job interviews at the pub anymores.....


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## manticle (5/9/15)

Yeah right.
Must have been what he was on about.


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Apparently we in the shit because we cant do job interviews at the pub anymores.....


Cant begin to tell you how many job/contracts/work was bartered in the pub I have seen over the years.

And a lot still is on a local level

You will always find the best tradies via the pub B)


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## goomboogo (5/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You will always find the best tradies via the pub B)


Is that why you can't get one to turn up your house?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Is that why you can't get one to turn up your house?


Its cause you didnt offer beer as part payment..... up front


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## Black Devil Dog (6/9/15)

The best tradies are busy working, the others are struggling to find work.


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## manticle (6/9/15)

Yep. Anyone out of work must be shit.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> The best tradies are busy working, the others are struggling to find work.


And the best tradies can actually afford to go to the pub


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

manticle said:


> Yep. Anyone out of work must be shit.


Only because they are not applying for enough non existent jobs


----------



## manticle (6/9/15)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Or6CwOyx30I

Bone idle lazy *****


----------



## manticle (6/9/15)

That asterisk makes all the difference.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Cant begin to tell you how many job/contracts/work was bartered in the pub I have seen over the years.
> 
> And a lot still is on a local level
> 
> You will always find the best tradies via the pub B)


You always find alcoholic tradies via the pub.

Let me guess.........the next two best places after the pub to find a job or to procure a contract is the local whore house an drug den right?.......


----------



## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

manticle said:


> Yep. Anyone out of work must be shit.


Whilst not an absolute, as a general statement this is 100% correct.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Only because they are not applying for enough non existent jobs


Well if you cant make it here........

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=74


----------



## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

manticle said:


> Where'd you get your psychology degree mate? Was it expensive?


Not at all. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M


----------



## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> The best tradies are busy working, the others are struggling to find work.





manticle said:


> Yep. Anyone out of work must be shit.


The cream always rises to the top. (S. Freud)


----------



## mje1980 (6/9/15)

What planet do you two live on ?. I've seen excellent trades lose their job because they spent more time on the floor getting things done than in the office with their bosses ( playing solitaire ), who, now the tradesman is gone have no ******* idea how things work or how to maintain them.



I'm quite enjoying one particular idiot slowly drown under the pressure of trying to get things done after knifing the tradesman under him ( one of the hardest working and most knowledgable ).


----------



## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

Does this happen everywhere you have worked, or just this one place where you are now?
Sounds like a government workshop, but I doubt there are many of those left.


----------



## Coalminer (6/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The cream always rises to the top. (S. Freud)


And the pond scum rises to the top of the water boardroom

Anyway this thread has gone further OT than the Flouride debate.

Might need some moderation


----------



## goomboogo (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Well if you cant make it here........
> 
> http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=74


You are correct. It is easier to do well in Australia than Zimbabwe.


----------



## mje1980 (6/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Does this happen everywhere you have worked, or just this one place where you are now?
> Sounds like a government workshop, but I doubt there are many of those left.


Big company. Happens often. Want to get promoted? Go to a particular church on Sunday, then, regardless of your work performance, you're safe. Sounds downright ridiculous but I've seen who stays when we "restructure" and who goes and performance often has no bearing on if you stay or go


----------



## goomboogo (6/9/15)

Coalminer said:


> And the pond scum rises to the top of the water boardroom
> 
> Anyway this thread has gone further OT than the Flouride debate.
> 
> Might need some moderation


You are responding to a person who believes the best measure of a human being's value is their bank balance. WEAL's view of the world allows Eddie Obeid to be considered a more worthwhile person than Catherine Hamlin.

Would you really like this thread to be moderated so that it is restricted to direct commentary on Bronwyn Bishop? Conversation isn't strictly linear and some of the more interesting parts of this thread have little to do with the original post. I'm all for keeping brewing threads on topic because they are meant to exist as an information source regarding something specific. However, non-brewing ramblings such as this thread should be able to run a natural conversational course.

It could be argued the thread hasn't strayed too much as Bronwyn Bishop exemplifies the problems that can arise when the self-obsessed combine to form political, social and economic hegemonies.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

WEAL... Yeah I know its not news linited so must be wrong...( and probably biased )

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/under-free-trade-agreement-chinese-workers-can-avoid-labourmarket-tests-20150901-gjc8ca.html#ixzz3krXWutfT

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/unions-lash-chinese-dairy-investors-as-plans-to-import-workers-exposed-20150903-gje5rm.html


----------



## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

WEALS view of the world respects those who will have a go, win or lose, not to sit and complain about what life dishes up to them,how bad their job is, how poorly they are paid, I have metastatic cancer and more than likely won't be around much longer but I have come to respect that tumor, 3 lots of chemo 1 lot of aggressive radiotherapy and it still comes back bigger than before.
But I am not going to resign from life until the lights go out, I am not going to complain that life isn't fair, make sarcastic comments or snide sniping remarks, or refer to anyone as idiots because they don't agree with my views.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> WEALS view of the world respects those who will have a go, win or lose, not to sit and complain about what life dishes up to them,how bad their job is, how poorly they are paid,


And there is nothing wrong with that.

But not everyone gets a fair chance in life


----------



## goomboogo (6/9/15)

WEAL, you characterise everyone who disagrees with you as a whinger who has no clue what they're talking about. In terms of political parties you constantly whinge about one party whilst deriding anyone who critisises the party you support. You fail to see that the people you seek to belittle as lazy whingers are also just having a go. The only difference is they hold different views to you.


----------



## Camo6 (6/9/15)

To be honest, I see just as much zeal, if not more, from the ALP supporters.
I've seen more derisive comments aimed at WEAL than from WEAL.
I think we all need to lighten up a bit and realise we're just a bunch of homebrewers talking about what needs to be done while not doing a God damned thing about it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

If you vote Labor or belong to a Union ( and read Fairfax press & watch the ABC ) then you are worthless.....


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/15)

How good is beer fellas?


----------



## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> What planet do you two live on ?. I've seen excellent trades lose their job because they spent more time on the floor getting things done than in the office with their bosses ( playing solitaire ), who, now the tradesman is gone have no ******* idea how things work or how to maintain them.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm quite enjoying one particular idiot slowly drown under the pressure of trying to get things done after knifing the tradesman under him ( one of the hardest working and most knowledgable ).


This just goes to show how poor they were at their job regardless of actual trade skill.

Assuming this is a work colleague who is drowning, you should be sacked for standing by taking pleasure in it.

Imagine have having to work alongside this arsehat^^


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> How good is beer fellas?


depends if it is combined with politics or football


----------



## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> But not everyone gets a fair chance in life


Who here has not had a fair chance at life??


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Who here has not had a fair chance at life??


I know a few. They may not be on here, but life certainly has delt them some lemons


----------



## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> WEAL, you characterise everyone who disagrees with you as a whinger who has no clue what they're talking about. In terms of political parties you constantly whinge about one party whilst deriding anyone who critisises the party you support. You fail to see that the people you seek to belittle as lazy whingers are also just having a go. The only difference is they hold different views to you.


Yep......and that view usually is that whining is going to better position them in life......


----------



## Black Devil Dog (6/9/15)

manticle said:


> Yep. Anyone out of work must be shit.


Well, if you're a good tradesperson, you would do quality work, be professional in your conduct, be reliable and generally take a bit of pride in what you're doing, among other things.

When you do that, you tend to get ongoing work, recommendations and referrals and that means you are usually busy.

If you don't do those things and you're struggling to find work, well maybe you are shit.

I'm sure there are good tradespeople who struggle to find regular work, but from my experience the good ones seem to do alright.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'm sure there are good tradespeople who struggle to find regular work, but from my experience the good ones seem to do alright.


But not always. 

I know some very good carpenter/builders who are renowned for their workmanship. They still struggle to find work sometimes. 

When there is no work, what then ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> WEAL, you characterise everyone who disagrees with you as a whinger who has no clue what they're talking about. In terms of political parties you constantly whinge about one party whilst deriding anyone who critisises the party you support. You fail to see that the people you seek to belittle as lazy whingers are also just having a go. The only difference is they hold different views to you.


I don't see everyone who disagrees with me as a whinger, the ones who I would refer to as a whinger are the ones who whinge, whether it be about the job they are in, don't get enough money, critisise their employer, the situation anyone finds them self in is of their own making.Nobody else's.

I wouldn't say I was whinging for putting up a counter argument when someone puts in their view of the LNP, most of this post has been critisising the LNP but I don't deride anyone for it, or try to belittle someone as a lazy whinger if they don't agree with me.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But not always.
> 
> I know some very good carpenter/builders who are renowned for their workmanship. They still struggle to find work sometimes.
> 
> When there is no work, what then ?


If there is no work in that particular trade then look at doing something else, look at the posts in the career change thread.


----------



## manticle (6/9/15)

Most people here aren't complaining about how hard their life is. I'm certainly not.
I'm a big believer in having a go, taking the bull by the horns, looking after yourself, etc and yes I am enjoying the fruits of that labour (which consists of much more than finance).

The difference is that I don't believe that everyone starts with the same opportunity as me and to insist that they do or always blame people for their problems involves using selective blinkers.
WEAL - You don't strike me as someone who respects people for having a go, win or lose. You strike me as someone who respects people for having a go (regardless of who or what they walk over to do it) so long as they win. That may be untrue but it's how you come across, at least to me.

I know loads of people who get back up when they're knocked down and who are tougher than anyone when you consider what life has thrown at them. I can't measure their strength or success by the size of their bank balance or company position.


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## jyo (6/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> 30% of the Netherlands sits below sea level. I assume a man whos handy with laying pipe is quite desirable.


Bell ends facing in the direction of the flow, please.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If there is no work in that particular trade then look at doing something else, look at the posts in the career change thread.


If only that easy

It takes time to re-train and re-skill.

what does one do in the meantime ?


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## manticle (6/9/15)

Well if you were good enough and worked hard enough, you'd have heaps put aside.

Failure is always your fault.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

manticle said:


> I know loads of people who get back up when they're knocked down and who are tougher than anyone when you consider what life has thrown at them. I can't measure their strength or success by the size of their bank balance or company position.


And they are the people who earn my respect.

Not the elitist view that if you dont succeed then your are worthless. Those people will never earn my respect


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## goomboogo (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Yep......and that view usually is that whining is going to better position them in life......


My point was that when it comes to whinging, we're all as bad each other.



wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't see everyone who disagrees with me as a whinger, the ones who I would refer to as a whinger are the ones who whinge, whether it be about the job they are in, don't get enough money, critisise their employer, the situation anyone finds them self in is of their own making.Nobody else's.
> 
> I wouldn't say I was whinging for putting up a counter argument when someone puts in their view of the LNP, most of this post has been critisising the LNP but I don't deride anyone for it, or try to belittle someone as a lazy whinger if they don't agree with me.


I complain about many things and don't like the way in which many people operate. But, I have never genuinely whinged about my work situation. I am regularly questioned about the decisions I've taken regarding my employment. Many people admit they can't comprehend my choices but they have been my choices. However, not everyone has had the same opportunity that allows choice to be part of the equation.


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## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But not always.
> 
> I know some very good carpenter/builders who are renowned for their workmanship. They still struggle to find work sometimes.
> 
> When there is no work, what then ?


Bit of a silly question. What does any business do when there is no work?


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Bit of a silly question. What does any business do when there is no work?


They die or diversify. 

But diversification also has its own risks


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## mje1980 (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This just goes to show how poor they were at their job regardless of actual trade skill.
> 
> Assuming this is a work colleague who is drowning, you should be sacked for standing by taking pleasure in it.
> 
> Imagine have having to work alongside this arsehat^^


Poor at their job? Haha they were so good they carried the bloke above them. That bloke above him happily took all the credit and knifed the bloke when it was restructure time. Now when the penny has dropped that he has to pick up the slack, he is drowning because he knows it is quite obvious he doesn't know what he's doing. 

I'm taking pleasure because he shafted probably the best bloke in his position in the department, and now he's realised his ambition has far outweighed his talent and for a long time has taken credit for someone else's work.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

When I was working on the railways, we had a saying about blokes like that.

" He was promoted to his level of incompetence "


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## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> If only that easy
> 
> It takes time to re-train and re-skill.
> 
> what does one do in the meantime ?


This day and age you should always be looking for something else as there is no such thing as a life long job anymore.

For instance....if you are a concreter then its is likely that your days are numbered. This could be said for any number of trades which is due to technology.



What you choose to do with this information is up to you. I heard in China they are printed entire houses.


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## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Poor at their job? Haha they were so good they carried the bloke above them. That bloke above him happily took all the credit and knifed the bloke when it was restructure time. Now when the penny has dropped that he has to pick up the slack, he is drowning because he knows it is quite obvious he doesn't know what he's doing.
> 
> I'm taking pleasure because he shafted probably the best bloke in his position in the department, and now he's realised his ambition has far outweighed his talent and for a long time has taken credit for someone else's work.


I say poor at their job because no matter how much baseline skill you have, if you don't know the politics then you are just the labor.

If this guy was so good, how come he was not the boss?


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Because not everyone wants to become the boss


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## wide eyed and legless (6/9/15)

manticle said:


> WEAL - You don't strike me as someone who respects people for having a go, win or lose. You strike me as someone who respects people for having a go (regardless of who or what they walk over to do it) so long as they win. That may be untrue but it's how you come across, at least to me.


Every body likes a winner, and I am a very bad loser, so I do like to win, but I do respect someone who has a go,even if they lose, and it isn't a matter of walking over people unless they are your competitor, all is fair in love and war.


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## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Because not everyone wants to become the boss


Fair point.


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## mje1980 (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I say poor at their job because no matter how much baseline skill you have, if you don't know the politics then you are just the labor.
> 
> If this guy was so good, how come he was not the boss?


I'd rather be poor for my whole life ( and I wouldn't complain for a second ) than try to impress someone I thought was an oxygen thief just to earn more money or get promoted. 


The bloke involved just wanted to do his job, had no interest in jumping in the vipers pit that is working in management for a big company. Some great people there for sure, but also a lot of used car salesmen.


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## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> I'd rather be poor for my whole life ( and I wouldn't complain for a second ) than try to impress someone I thought was an oxygen thief just to earn more money or get promoted.


This is unfortunate because all businesses particularly private ones require some sort of marketing and sales whether it be to your current customers, new customers or manager/boss which is in affect just trying to impress someone regardless of who they are. Generally the more the business/individual has to gain from the situation be it financially or otherwise the more they will do.

Me, I try to not make my family suffer due to my moral stances. If I had I would have never made it through my apprenticeship.

For instance........I actually got paid less than I was worth just to get the apprenticeship.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> For instance........I actually got paid less than I was worth just to get the apprenticeship.


Welcome the world of being an apprentice. But the dividends long term make up for the short term.


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## jlm (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This day and age you should always be looking for something else as there is no such thing as a life long job anymore.
> 
> For instance....if you are a concreter then its is likely that your days are numbered. This could be said for any number of trades which is due to technology.
> 
> ...


Not numbered anytime soon. Not until the majority of construction is full architectural wank. While I've seen from my side of the fence (sparky) over the years changes on high-rise construction with those huge screeding machines and the efficiencies they bring, the majority of concrete poured in my lifetime will still be flat slabs that don't require a gazillion dollar concrete printer.
As you were concreters, no ones coming to stop you and your 3pm knock-off any time soon.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Every body likes a winner, and I am a very bad loser,


That says a lot about a person

I am teaching my kids that winning isn't everything and that they should treat those that lose the same is those that win


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## mje1980 (6/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is unfortunate because all businesses particularly private ones require some sort of marketing and sales whether it be to your current customers, new customers or manager/boss which is in affect just trying to impress someone regardless of who they are. Generally the more the business/individual has to gain from the situation be it financially or otherwise the more they will do.
> 
> Me, I try to not make my family suffer due to my moral stances. If I had I would have never made it through my apprenticeship.
> 
> For instance........I actually got paid less than I was worth just to get the apprenticeship.


I teach my kids that money isn't everything and that being a suck hole is degrading and selling yourself out. I don't need or want millions, because I live a simple life. No need for fancy wanky keeping up with jones type material crap. Right now I'm sitting in front of s firepit watching the kids toast marshmallows while sipping a brett mild. Life is good 

Only a rat can win a rat race 

Enjoy your day mate


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## Vini2ton (6/9/15)

You can't compete with arseholes who are willing to work for well below the basic wage in their fucken blacked out windowed buses. I worked with a crew of very efficient vineyard workers who created an industry, who were bumped so crooked contractors could ripoff their own countrymen of refugees and fucken burn us. Up to 20% youth unemployment in this region and no help from any [email protected]#t. So Bronwyn can go to the opera as far as I'm concerned. Hello to the arsehole corporate wine industry.


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## Burt de Ernie (6/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> I teach my kids that money isn't everything and that being a suck hole is degrading and selling yourself out. I don't need or want millions, because I live a simple life. No need for fancy wanky keeping up with jones type material crap. Right now I'm sitting in front of s firepit watching the kids toast marshmallows while sipping a brett mild. Life is good
> 
> Only a rat can win a rat race
> 
> Enjoy your day mate


That's a fantastic picture and I am quite envious.

I teach my kids money and education equates to options.

Whilst most would agree that money is not everything, not having options can be devastating to ones life. Whilst it is a noble gesture opting for the simple life for oneself, I would rather kiss the arse that requires kissing so that in the future my kids have the option of having the life where the jones keep up with them or alternatively taking the simple life option.

But hey...im a selfless kind of guy.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)

Tony Abbott v Tony Abbott in question time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=42&v=q99VsIec2gg


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## mje1980 (6/9/15)

Luckily being a well paid tradesman I have that option too, which I'm grateful for.


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## madpierre06 (6/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Mate you can talk yourself down just as much as you can talk yourself up, you've got to start and look for the positive side of life, not what you feel are the negative sides of your life.


Not knocking myself down, simply an observation on the realities of the world/country we have come to find ourselves in. And while there are quite a few of what some might see as negatives in my life, most days I do pretty well at seeing the upsides which are certainly present.



Burt de Ernie said:


> Wow....you sound like you have had a few to many knock backs in your life.
> 
> Like all environments from the start of time, you either adapt or you fade away.
> 
> The question I have for anyone on a rant is what have you done to change or better the situation? In most cases the answer no doubt will end at the rant itself.


Not a rant, more like a slightly disjointed observation of the realities which are going on in our country/world for those who wish to look. I do get seriously pissed off at what I see as factors out of our control which are knocking many people down harder and harder every day, factors which our govts are complicit in with no real care for the people in this country, and I mean ALL people, not just ones right at the top of the tree. Those who are never going to have the werewithal to go out and make a good go for themselves. Or are these the ones who you would prefer would just fade away. Maybe we could save the country a few quid and do the humane thing and put them out of their misery. Would you be ok with that?

Like most, yeah, a few knockbacks/knockdowns. But it is not those that have shaped my views.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/15)




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## Dave70 (7/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> If we can blame anybody we can point the finger at Genghis Khan, he had the opportunity to put the Islamist' s to the sword but chose not to.
> ,


Fair go, the man had a lot on his plate. The citizens of central Asia weren't about to just rape and massacre themselves you know.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/9/15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7pKDlIAHbg


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## pcmfisher (7/9/15)

manticle said:


> @Camo6 : this is how I feel
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3iOROuTuMA


After seeing that, I will never be the same.


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## goomboogo (7/9/15)

pcmfisher said:


> After seeing that, I will never be the same.


There have been comments about this thread having a bit of everything. It truly only lived up to that once we had Salad Fingers. Every thread needs the love of rusty spoons.


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## jlm (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> union.jpg


Where's the card that appreciates what unions have achieved (quite some time ago for the most part on that list) but states your frustration with what they've become? At least as far as trade unions (the line of work I'm attached to) go.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

jlm said:


> Where's the card that appreciates what unions have achieved (quite some time ago for the most part on that list) but states your frustration with what they've become? At least as far as trade unions (the line of work I'm attached to) go.


I feel that the Union have started to run out of things to achieve ( in a broader social/work aspect ) They have already achieved good working conditions, leave conditions, super etc... 

They are still keeping workplaces safe and fighting against potentially unjust policies. I guess this leaves the union reps at the top with more spare time, and when people have nothing to do they tend to get up to mischef.


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## Vini2ton (7/9/15)

Our job now, is to hold on to what we have won over the years. It's always been a battle and always will be. Granted there are a few gormless and corrupt turds in the union movement, but overall the aim is true. A fair days work for a fair days pay. It's a shame those 7eleven workers weren't in the union.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

Vini2ton said:


> It's a shame those 7eleven workers weren't in the union.


Aint that right WEAL....oh and Fairwork Australia really helped them guys out


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)




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## Vini2ton (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Aint that right WEAL....oh and Fairwork Australia really helped them guys out


Hey. Fairwork and my union did nothing for us. When you realize who owns vineyards, people such as commissioners, lawyers, professors, judges, doctors, prominent ex-footballers, Rhode-schoalars, politicians and nothing happens, it's obvious you're pissing into the wind. You know somethings going on.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

Money & Power corrupts


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## jlm (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> union dogs.jpg


In this situation, you can still shoot the dog. I wish getting rid of someone who was shit at their job was that easy.


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## manticle (7/9/15)

pcmfisher said:


> After seeing that, I will never be the same.


Wait till you watch the rest of the series.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Aint that right WEAL....oh and Fairwork Australia really helped them guys out


That's why we don't need a union, with FWC the employee comes off best,even if an employee steals from the company that's still alright by FWC, they even o/k'd the strike by the RTBU because a 17% pay rise was not enough, that's what happens when you have a State Premier who still attends union meetings.

I wonder if Shifty Shorten negotiated the wages for 7 eleven workers, and say well at least they are employed while pocketing a back hander from the franchisees.


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## Gelding (7/9/15)

jlm said:


> Where's the card that appreciates what unions have achieved (quite some time ago for the most part on that list) but states your frustration with what they've become? At least as far as trade unions (the line of work I'm attached to) go.


special gay rights for sparkies is next.... ?


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## Mardoo (7/9/15)

Gelding said:


> special gay rights for sparkleies is next.... ?


FTFY


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> That's why we don't need a union, with FWC the employee comes off best,


Not sure that all those 7 eleven employees would agree with that part of the statement



wide eyed and legless said:


> , they even o/k'd the strike by the RTBU because a 17% pay rise was not enough,


Yeah...but the isn't the FWC overseen by the Abbott Government ?


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## Gelding (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Not sure that all those 7 eleven employees would agree with that part of the statement


If they didnt like it couldnt they leave and go somewhere else ?


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

Yes, they could have. But when the FWC looked into it they achieved **** all. Sure they issued a few fines, but they where less than the money owed to the employees. And then they kept letting them do it.

******* joke at times


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## wide eyed and legless (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Not sure that all those 7 eleven employees would agree with that part of the statement
> 
> 
> Yeah...but the isn't the FWC overseen by the Abbott Government ?


$90,000 for the workers and each franchisee breaking the law $150,000 fine

Working of the FWC is independent of the government.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Working of the FWC is independent of the government.


So why the reference the the Vic Premier attending Union meetings if the FWC is independant. ......


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## Gelding (7/9/15)

just dont get it how nothing can be better than refusing less than a minimum wage ?


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## wide eyed and legless (7/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So why the reference the the Vic Premier attending Union meetings if the FWC is independant. ......


The reference is to the strikes, the police union is next.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

But the FWC agree. What has the state premier got to do with it. He is only supporting something the FWC also agree's with.

Did he tell the FWC to allow them to strike ?


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## wide eyed and legless (7/9/15)

No one can tell the FWC what they can adjudicate.

Sam Dastyari even went to the RTBU rally, shows you the power of the puppet master unions over the Labor Party.

Best part is it won't be Metro who loses any money, the fares will go up and it will put more cost of living on their poor fellow workers travelling to work.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> No one can tell the FWC what they can adjudicate.
> 
> Sam Dastyari even went to the RTBU rally, shows you the power of the puppet master unions over the Labor Party.


So what is your point exactly. ?....Because at the moment your not actually making one, your just saying that some Labor politicians are supporting the Union and that you dont like it

FWC agreed with the Union. What has that got to do with Labor politicains supporting them...

Your slipping WEAL


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## wide eyed and legless (7/9/15)

The point is a vote for Labor is a vote for the Unions, if you are happy with that that is your choice, but for me to vote Labor would be like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders.

FWC allowed the strike to go ahead, that was before Sam Dastyari came down for Rally.

So, are you happy that the only people to be hurt by the pay rise of 17% plus are going to be the fellow workers who commute by rail and tram? I would really like to hear your view on that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> FWC allowed the strike to go ahead, that was before Sam Dastyari came down for Rally.


And ...your point being..?




wide eyed and legless said:


> The point is a vote for Labor is a vote for the Unions, if you are happy with that that is your choice, but for me to vote Labor would be like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders.


I am very happy with that. I would rather vote for a party that keeps pay, conditions & rights for workers than a government that wants to take away these things

There is always 7 eleven when times get tough




wide eyed and legless said:


> So, are you happy that the only people to be hurt by the pay rise of 17% plus are going to be the fellow workers who commute by rail and tram? I would really like to hear your view on that.


Dont live in the City. ( But I made a lifestyle choice  )

Is the 17% rise really going to send fares skyrocketing. ( I havnt got a clue what a ticket costs cause I havent caught public transport in 15-20yrs )

We dont get any joy in the bush by paying more for petrol than you city folk do ( and we dont have much in the way of public transport either )


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## malt and barley blues (8/9/15)

I have a son who is a plumber working on 888 Collins street Docklands, all the plasterers are illegal Chinese workers, when they get paid they have the legitimate pay on the payslip, and the money matches the payslip but they have to give a donation back to the paymaster.
Its no coincidence that the union rep for the site turns up when they get paid, and liaises with the paymaster afterwards. h34r:

Surely a case of do as I say, not do as I do when it comes to illegal workers taking Aussie jobs.


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## malt and barley blues (8/9/15)

We'll never have a proper democracy until we can shoot a few people (Chairman Alf)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPgm69pMRUU


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## Liam_snorkel (8/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> So, are you happy that the only people to be hurt by the pay rise of 17% plus are going to be the fellow workers who commute by rail and tram? I would really like to hear your view on that.


just to put this into perspective:

https://np.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/3ijwhj/metro_trains_staff_to_go_on_strike_on_friday_4th/cuhamwa



> [–]topgreen 150 points 11 days ago
> Currently we start and finish work at the same location. I live in the eastern suburbs and work at an outstation near where I live. With the new system they want to change it around completely. Firstly they don't want you to start and finish work at the same place, so you might start work at Ringwood station and finish work at Werribee. This means you have to travel back to Ringwood in your own time if that is where you live. Their second proposal causes more problems because they want to change the rostering system completely. Currently rosters are worked out well in advance. I work a 40 week roster, so I can look up months ahead and know exactly what time I start work and what my days off are. Their new system means we will only have 11 hours notice of what shift I'm doing tomorrow. I live in Ringwood so I'd ring up for tomorrow's shift and they say I have to go to Sunbury (as an example) to start work. So I travel to Sunbury but my shift might finish at Frankston...or Ringwood. But because I started work at 4:00am I have to drive the car to work so I have to return to Sunbury to get my car then drive back home to Ringwood. The following day I ring up and they say I have to start at Werribee. It could be anywhere in the system.
> I've got young kids and pay for childcare. I'll have no consistency, not know what I'm doing each day and cannot plan for anything. The only rule is we need 11 hours off between shifts so I could start at 4:00am on Monday, 7:00pm Tuesday,, 2:00pm Wednesday, 9:00am Thursday and so on... Would you want to catch my train knowing that? Currently we do morning shifts all week then change to night shift the following week with the ability to swap shifts. Fatigue management is a serious and important factor in our jobs and they want to take that away.
> This dispute is not about money, it is not about pay rises. It's about working conditions and my ability to function as a human being while trying to do a job that I take very seriously. I worked very hard to get my drivers qualifications. Ask any train driver how hard the course was, they have a huge failure rate because the course is so difficult but you can be assured the person sitting up the front of your train knows exactly what they are doing and you know they've had enough sleep last night. The job is stressful sometimes but we accept that because all jobs are in their own way, but what management want to do will cause damage to the public transport system and I guarantee more mistakes will occur because of the added stress the these change will create.
> I've got 35 years left until I retire (assuming the robots don't take over before then) and it's a job I enjoy and take pride in. These changes will take away all that and it's something that's worth fighting for. I'm just sorry the short term industrial action is causing issues for passengers but I've got a long time left until I retire and I want to make sure it's a job I can guarantee is safe for myself and the thousands of people I take to work every day.


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## wide eyed and legless (8/9/15)

The union perspective.
http://www.rtbuvic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/RTBU-4page-Vol2-Issue6.pdf


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## Liam_snorkel (8/9/15)

did you read it?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/9/15)

Yes, nothing in there about not knowing what the rosters they were on.

Metro has agreed that where a majority of members prefer the current rotations, rosters will be altered to reflect a pattern as close as possible to the current existing rotations. FINACIAL DISADVANTAGE • The RTBU opposes our members being financially disadvantaged. In some instances members were going to be up to eight thousand dollars worse off a year. • Metro has now agreed to a series of compromises that will reduce financial disadvantage. Negotiations continue on this question as we strive to get the best possible outcome for members. SHIFTS OF OVER 8 HOURS • The RTBU has been against the introduction of any additional shifts of over 8 hours, to protect members’ work/ life balance and to prevent fatigue. Many of the proposed rosters include shifts of over 10 hours. • Metro has agreed in SOME instances to return the weekend shifts to 8 hours and utilise a PT member to cover the mid. Negotiations continue on this matter. DISPLACEMENTS • Many of the new proposed rosters have less positions on the roster for the station than currently exists. In such situations some members will be “displaced” There is an agreement between the RTBU and Metro to ensure the protection of any displaced members: there are no job losses, people cannot be forced to move to stations where it is totally unreasonable to work. The preference is that members be moved within their current work area or closer to home.


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## Liam_snorkel (8/9/15)

nothing in there about a 17% pay increase either.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/9/15)

The 17% has been knocked back by the unions, 3% now 14% over 4 years.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/15)

^ because they're striking against the _changes to conditions_.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/9/15)

Ms Grigorovitch called on Metro to accept the commission's decision and focus on negotiating a new wage agreement.


----------



## seamad (8/9/15)

*Why has the Rail, Tram and Bus Union taken strike action against Metro Trains?*
The industrial dispute is about power. The RTBU is locked in an arm wrestle with Metro about who controls the working conditions of staff. Metro's offer of a 17 per cent pay rise over four years might be generous enough for the union to agree to, if it weren't for the big changes to working conditions Metro insists must go with it. The union has vowed it will not give up hard-won protections of its members' work-life balance. The two sides are as far apart as ever on this, even though talks have been going for five months. Further strike action has not been ruled out.
*So what does Metro want to change?*
Metro wants control over when and where it rosters train drivers to work and it wants to reduce the number of weeks' training it takes to become a qualified driver. It says current arrangements get in the way of its ability to run a reliable railway, which has experienced a doubling of patronage since 2000. 

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/train-strike-whats-really-at-stake-for-metro-in-melbourne-20150907-gjgzy4.html#ixzz3l6HwjzeS
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/9/15)

Exactly. Another case of management being denied the right to manage.

*So what does Metro want to change?*
Metro wants control over when and where it rosters train drivers to work and it wants to reduce the number of weeks' training it takes to become a qualified driver. It says current arrangements get in the way of its ability to run a reliable railway, which has experienced a doubling of patronage since 2000.
To run the network smoothly as commuter numbers continue to grow, the company wants to split Melbourne's suburban rail network into five discrete groups, with minimal crossover points between them, which is how many of the world's great metro systems function. That way, a disruption can be contained to one group and not spread across the wider system.

The roster system has all but been agreed between Metro and the RTBU it just has to go to members.


----------



## seamad (8/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Exactly. Another case of management trying to take away the hard-won protections of work-life balance.
> 
> FTFY


----------



## seamad (8/9/15)

abbott and truss both lied about the northstar cruises claim of being told by officials to reflag vessel as foreign to hire cheap foreign labour.
Australian government bureaucrats have admitted to a senate committee yesterday they discussed options with cruise operator Bill Milby which involved him hiring foreign crew under a foreign flag.


----------



## madpierre06 (8/9/15)

seamad said:


> abbott and truss both lied about the northstar cruises claim of being told by officials to reflag vessel as foreign to hire cheap foreign labour.
> Australian government bureaucrats have admitted to a senate committee yesterday they discussed options with cruise operator Bill Milby which involved him hiring foreign crew under a foreign flag.


No, they simply misrepresented their position in order to avoid unnecessary angst to australian workers and the general public. They have been applauded for their generosity of spirit and ask the australian public to trust them in all matters and negotiations which they are currently undertaking. Anybody doubting them have been described as un-australian and unworthy of being represented by them and other members of the govt.


----------



## Bridges (8/9/15)

Screw that I want to know my train driver is highly trained (bwah ha ha) not there on a cut down training plan to save a few dollars, wtf does metro know about running a train network any way? They think that the best way to deal with a train that is running late is to not stop at stations. So your train is running late, therefore you are running late and then the train doesn't even stop at the station you need to disembark at...
I've tried to stay away from this thread, some of is just infuriating.





This pic always makes me feel a bit better for some reason...


----------



## seamad (8/9/15)

chafta keeps looking better and better for aussies
Department of Immigration and Border Protection first assistant secretary David Wilden said that if the free trade agreement came into effect, there would no longer be labour market testing for Chinese nurses, engineers, and other Skills Category 3 occupations.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/9/15)

http://www.afr.com/opinion/chinaaustralia-fta-concerns-unwarranted-20150906-gjg9bi?eid=cpc:nnn-14omn2224-optim-nnnutbrain-outbrain_paid-dom-displayad-nnn-afr-nnn&campaign_code=15caf010&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=paid%20outbrain


----------



## real_beer (8/9/15)

64 pages in 5 weeks & 2 days I should open a web site called "Goodbye Bronwyn" and make a few bob off webpage ads. Might even make enough too buy a model helicopter :lol:


----------



## RobW (8/9/15)

Bridges said:


> Screw that I want to know my train driver is highly trained (bwah ha ha) not there on a cut down training plan to save a few dollars, wtf does metro know about running a train network any way? They think that the best way to deal with a train that is running late is to not stop at stations. So your train is running late, therefore you are running late and then the train doesn't even stop at the station you need to disembark at...
> I've tried to stay away from this thread, some of is just infuriating.
> 
> 
> ...


That pic explains quite a lot really - especially the appeal of (easy to remember) 3 word slogans

Except I can't explain the trainers pants.


----------



## Mardoo (8/9/15)

real_beer said:


> 64 pages in 5 weeks & 2 days I should open a web site called "Goodbye Bronwyn" and make a few bob off webpage ads. Might even make enough too buy a model helicopter :lol:


Yeah, might do, but the model Bronwyns are pricey.


----------



## seamad (8/9/15)

always could make your own helicopter


----------



## malt and barley blues (8/9/15)

If Metro are supplying the driverless trains to Sydney, they should think of doing the same in Melbourne, bring us up to speed with all the other major cities operating them.


----------



## Dave70 (8/9/15)

seamad said:


> always could make your own helicopter



Bronnie would never fit her hair under the canopy.


----------



## pcmfisher (8/9/15)

manticle said:


> Wait till you watch the rest of the series.


I tried watching another episode but I started to get this nervous twitch sort of thing in my neck and my vision went blurry.

Kind of like what happens when I read this thread...........


----------



## Camo6 (8/9/15)

pcmfisher said:


> I tried watching another episode but I started to get this nervous twitch sort of thing in my neck and my vision went blurry.
> 
> Kind of like what happens when I read this thread...........



You need to wean yourself into Firth cartoons. Try starting on something less traumatizing like Spoilsbury Toast Boy. Pretty sure it was Mants who was responsible for sending me to that link too. (Four sessions a week you twisted [email protected]#k.)


----------



## manticle (8/9/15)

We are the good beetles, yes?


----------



## JDW81 (8/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Bronnie would never fit her hair under the canopy.


Finally back on topic!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The 17% has been knocked back by the unions, 3% now 14% over 4 years.


So the union went against a 17% and want 14% over 4 years

Your arguments are running dry WEAL


----------



## spog (8/9/15)

Thin end of wedge there,go for what you can get,get that thin edge in and then hammer it home.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

WEAL... they are lying again.....

Not sure who is lying, but someone is

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/cruise-ship-boss-wants-apology-from-prime-minister-tony-abbott-over-lie-claim-20150907-gjh85i.html


----------



## manticle (8/9/15)

Implied for ****'s sake. He inferred from their implications.

The proof of the pudding has gone down the toilet because it refused to toe the line.

Or line's as some might have it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

I thought this was rather a good speech

Some may not

https://video.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xfp1/v/t42.1790-2/11893111_425473380993850_116788448_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjMwMCwicmxhIjo1MTJ9&rl=300&vabr=143&oh=9be9951f684c232b5e4f694567047627&oe=55EEE9A7


----------



## Burt de Ernie (8/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I am very happy with that. I would rather vote for a party that keeps pay, conditions & rights for workers than a government that wants to take away these things


This is and important thing but is ultimately secondary. There is no point forsaking the rights of businesses for the sake of worker rights because without businesses there is no workers.

Balance is key.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is and important thing but is ultimately secondary. There is no point forsaking the rights of businesses for the sake of worker rights because without businesses there is no workers.
> 
> Balance is key.


And without workers, you dont have business


----------



## Burt de Ernie (8/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And without workers, you dont have business


True! but this is not a case of the chicken and the egg.

The workers never come first. They are only ever a consequence.


Edit: At the moment my company is turning away work and I am constantly interviewing people but wont employ until we get the correct fit.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> The workers never come first. They are only ever a consequence.


Which is a pretty shit way of looking at it.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (8/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Which is a pretty shit way of looking at it.


I assume you have said this because the comment gives and un-arguable perspective.

That being said I am in the same boat as you and every other employee out there however, I am lucky enough to be in an industry where unions are not required. If I were in a less valued working industry I would also be in a Union which in the past I have been.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I assume you have said this because the comment gives and un-arguable perspective.


No. Its just a really shit way of looking at it


----------



## Burt de Ernie (8/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No. Its just a really shit way of looking at it


Well its better than looking at it through rose coloured glasses.


----------



## Spohaw (8/9/15)

manticle said:


> Hope there's fuckin' biscuits in there. I'd murder a blind, deaf negroid paddy mcskip pom for a monte carlo or one of those dark, almost black tim tams.
> 
> Although a golden gaytime would also go down a treat.
> 
> ...


I have ... Aboriginals tried to mug me on two separate occasions and each time I was called over with the " come here you racist white c#nt " 

Haha funny fellas


----------



## Spohaw (8/9/15)

Ahh didn't see the 600 other posts before I posted


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Well its better than looking at it through rose coloured glasses.


Or utopian ones


----------



## mje1980 (9/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> This is and important thing but is ultimately secondary. There is no point forsaking the rights of businesses for the sake of worker rights because without businesses there is no workers.
> 
> Balance is key.


Don't know about secondary but this is a good point. No point clinging to your conditions if it causes the business to go out of business. 

Balance is key definitely. This isn't the 70's or whatever golden era we once had. We shouldn't just give up and all work for $10 an hour though, but we have to adjust things. 

I work in manufacturing, steel manufacturing and to stay competitive is a massive challenge. Both sides need to compromise to keep it competitive, or at least stay in the game. In my role now, in the space of around 8 years I am now doing work that other people did when I started. Those people are gone now.It's not a great feeling but if we didn't do it, no one would be here. 

What do you do? 

It's annoying though, past managements poor management skill means severe measures have to be put in place in a short amount of time. Though those people don't end up losing their jobs, the people on shop floor level do. Fair enough I suppose, your choice to remain a shop floor worker ( I'm more than happy with that choice and accept the risk ).


Also, cutting jobs or wages to me personally seems like an excuse to cover up poor business management skills in a lot of cases. It's lazy economic policy.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (9/9/15)

Everyone likes a winner, and I am a very bad loser, so I do like to win.



Ducatiboy stu said:


> That says a lot about a person
> 
> I am teaching my kids that winning isn't everything and that they should treat those that lose the same is those that win


At sport winning is not that important, though to me even that was, I am talking about life in general and business, in business the stakes are high, money is at stake, and that's money which is going to provide a good education for my kids, look after their future,as well as mine and my wife's.So I don't think that's bad. 

Some people will go through life, gamble, lose their home even lose their wife and kids, what do they do go on the Old King Cole and let the tax payers take care of them and their family.To me it isn't the winners you should be crook on its the losers


----------



## Dave70 (9/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> The workers never come first. They are only ever a consequence.


You could also replace 'workers' with 'constituent' in the broader sense. 
Show up, be productive, pay your taxes and die before we have to shell out for your pension and medical expenses in your dotage. Cold but true.
Ultimately the house (government) always wins, followed by the intermediarys in the short wig and robes. Brokering a compromise between two sides that seem to be locked in a 1984-esque perpetual squabble must be a nice little earner. Do you think they actually want true harmony between employers / employees? Of course not. Keep em at each others throats no matter how petty the slight or perceived infringement. 

Anyway.

How about that Bronwyn Bishop. What a bloody cheek!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (9/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> How about that Bronwyn Bishop. What a bloody cheek!


I think Sir Tony is going to make Bronwyn the Queen of Australia

I think its entirely appropriate that we have our own born and breed Queen

Not sure if Liz would be to keen on it


----------



## madpierre06 (9/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I think Sir Tony is going to make Bronwyn the Queen of Australia
> 
> I think its entirely appropriate that we have our own born and breed Queen
> 
> Not sure if Liz would be to keen on it


Scary thing is that this is not entirely implausible.


----------



## goomboogo (9/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Everyone likes a winner, and I am a very bad loser, so I do like to win.
> 
> I am talking about life in general and business, in business the stakes are high, money is at stake, and that's money which is going to provide a good education for my kids, look after their future,as well as mine and my wife's.So I don't think that's bad.


Yet you don't like the idea of rail workers attempting to have a win regarding their pay and conditions. It would seem you fall short when gauged on your own rhetoric. What you really mean is; you only like some people having a go and you only like some people winning.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (9/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Yet you don't like the idea of rail workers attempting to have a win regarding their pay and conditions. It would seem you fall short when gauged on your own rhetoric. What you really mean is; you only like non union people having a go and you only like LNP people winning.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (10/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Yet you don't like the idea of rail workers attempting to have a win regarding their pay and conditions. It would seem you fall short when gauged on your own rhetoric. What you really mean is; you only like some people having a go and you only like some people winning.


The idea of rail workers attempting to have a win doesn't bother me in the slightest, how they go about having a win is what I don't agree with, the delegates left the negotiating table to flex some muscle, disrupting the lives of commuters, workers just like themselves, maybe even union members.
This sort of action by the RTBU is archaic in this day and age, even the pleas by their own Labor transport minister not to strike was not heeded by the delegates.
I like anyone having a go, on a level playing field, staging a strike by a mere handful of drivers and disrupting the lives of thousands of fellow workers is not something to be proud of.
The only good thing to come out of it was the $28,000 collected for the Syrian refugees by those commuters, so in my opinion it was the commuters who I applaud as the winners.


----------



## booargy (10/9/15)

Seems like you would rather live under a Chinese system. So why are you not still there?


----------



## Dave70 (10/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The idea of rail workers attempting to have a win doesn't bother me in the slightest, how they go about having a win is what I don't agree with, the delegates left the negotiating table to flex some muscle, disrupting the lives of commuters, workers just like themselves, maybe even union members.
> This sort of action by the RTBU is archaic in this day and age, even the pleas by their own Labor transport minister not to strike was not heeded by the delegates.
> I like anyone having a go, on a level playing field, staging a strike by a mere handful of drivers and disrupting the lives of thousands of fellow workers is not something to be proud of.
> The only good thing to come out of it was the $28,000 collected for the Syrian refugees by those commuters, so in my opinion it was the commuters who I applaud as the winners.


Strikes do seem somewhat of a blunt and uninspired tool, especially if you're hoping to elicit a little solidarity from the man in the street. 
Fair enough if you work in an underground mine thats skimping on pit props, but it should be a last resort, not the default setting when negotiations stall.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (10/9/15)

And what is the Chinese system?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (10/9/15)

haha, **** me. Gotta give Tony credit for sticking to his story, regardless of how idiotic it is.

Sales - "Australia's economic position has worsened under your leadership"
Abbott - "the boats have stopped"
Sales - "we're talking about the economy"

https://www.facebook.com/ABC730/videos/10153641561499516/


----------



## Camo6 (10/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> And what is the Chinese system?


That it's cheaper to back over and kill the pedestrian you just hit than let them live and cover their costs?

(Don't deny it WEAL. I read it on the internet so it's definitely true.)


----------



## wide eyed and legless (10/9/15)

That is true, you can't even stop and help someone who has been in a traffic accident, you even get people in the street who see a westerner and collapse hoping you will go and help them, if you do they will put the blame on the person helping.


----------



## Dave70 (10/9/15)

Camo6 said:


> That it's cheaper to back over and kill the pedestrian you just hit than let them live and cover their costs?
> 
> (Don't deny it WEAL. I read it on the internet so it's definitely true.)


Probably more humane than the American system when you dial 911 and wait for the ambos while they bleed out as to avoid any possible litigation brought about by the victim or their family should your good samaritan first aid skills not be quite up to par.

(saw that in a docudrama, so also obviously accurate)


----------



## goomboogo (10/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Best part is it won't be Metro who loses any money, the fares will go up and it will put more cost of living on their poor fellow workers travelling to work.





wide eyed and legless said:


> The idea of rail workers attempting to have a win doesn't bother me in the slightest,
> 
> This sort of action by the RTBU is archaic in this day and age,


What made you change your view in the space of three days? Also, if you think a strike is archaic then you must think Metro's approach is positively medievil.



Liam_snorkel said:


> haha, **** me. Gotta give Tony credit for sticking to his story, regardless of how idiotic it is.
> 
> Sales - "Australia's economic position has worsened under your leadership"
> Abbott - "the boats have stopped"
> ...


I thought on election night 2013; we now have our own George W. Bush. Tony Abbott, the bumbling moron has dragged himself under a very low bar and met the expectations born on that September evening two years ago.


----------



## seamad (10/9/15)

The slogan bogan was even worse than usual last night ( on the 7 .5 report ), Tony Windsor made the comment that he thought Abbott has given up on himself.
The last time the unemployment rate was above 6% for 15 straight months was when Abbott was minister for employment. One of the few economic stats that has gone up with this government...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (10/9/15)

^


----------



## manticle (10/9/15)

As much as I think tony is an embarassing nob and as much as I'd like to see most LNP front benchers die in a fire, I think a lot of the reported economic statistics are disingenuous at best, complete emotive bollocks at worst. Just read that unemployment fell from 6.1 % to 6 %. Total number (not relative but absolute) of people out of work today is higher than 1994. Total number of people owning custom made goldfish jackets for little fishy number one has probably increased since then as has the number of people who may or may not own goldfish.

Statisticians are crying everywhere.


----------



## seamad (10/9/15)

yeh, but how many goldfish fly around in helicopters


----------



## Black Devil Dog (10/9/15)

seamad said:


> always could make your own helicopter


That ain't a chopper, it's a slicer and dicer.


----------



## seamad (10/9/15)

so you don't think CASA would pass it ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (10/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Probably more humane than the American system when you dial 911 and wait for the ambos while they bleed out as to avoid any possible litigation brought about by the victim or their family should your good samaritan first aid skills not be quite up to par.
> 
> (saw that in a docudrama, so also obviously accurate)



At least we have universal health care.

No if's. no but's, 

Does not matter who you are, you will get treated with the best health care available regardless of who you are. 

Anyone who wants to take away something like that I personally have a real problem with.

I cannot understand why some political views want to go the way of of the USA


----------



## butisitart (11/9/15)

at least our health care isn't quite as altruistic as spain. under their constitution, they can't charge anybody for being hospitalised in their country. net result is a queue of americans lined up cos they got terminal diseases. it's now really difficult for an american over about 14 years old and can't run 1000m in under a minute to get a visa to visit spain.
(this from an american embassy worker married to a spaniard in the village what i live in when in spain.)


----------



## wide eyed and legless (11/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> What made you change your view in the space of three days? Also, if you think a strike is archaic then you must think Metro's approach is positively medievil.


 :lol: I don't know how you came to that conclusion

On another front about the jobs situation.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/economy-is-shifting-gear-as-60000-jobs-are-created/story-fn59noo3-1227521970813


----------



## Goose (11/9/15)

manticle said:


> As much as I think tony is an embarassing nob and as much as I'd like to see most LNP front benchers die in a fire, I think a lot of the reported economic statistics are disingenuous at best, complete emotive bollocks at worst. Just read that unemployment fell from 6.1 % to 6 %. Total number (not relative but absolute) of people out of work today is higher than 1994. Total number of people owning custom made goldfish jackets for little fishy number one has probably increased since then as has the number of people who may or may not own goldfish.
> 
> Statisticians are crying everywhere.


I don't think that is the problem.

People arn't wearing enough hats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=SG&hl=en-GB&v=O2QJvc_SxFQ


----------



## goomboogo (11/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> :lol: I don't know how you came to that conclusion
> 
> On another front about the jobs situation.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/economy-is-shifting-gear-as-60000-jobs-are-created/story-fn59noo3-1227521970813


Almost half the jobs are part-time jobs. The ABS Labour Force (seasonally adjusted) estimates for August 2015 show underemployment at 8.4% and total labour underutilisation rate was 14.3 per cent. This represents more than one million people underemployed with a total of 1.8 million workers either unemployed or underemployed. In terms of employment, the country is definitely going backwards as these figures present a picture that is far from rosy. What was Manticle saying yesterday about damned statistics. They can say anything a person wants them to say.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/9/15)

Yeah, but they stopped the boats.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (11/9/15)

I agree that the figures aren't accurate, but they must have a bench mark to work from. Otherwise the ABS wouldn't be able to say whether the figures have gone up or down.
In any government you will also have the faceless employees working for cash, and I believe that is far higher than most people would imagine, we also have to take a few percentage points off for those that won't work.


----------



## madpierre06 (11/9/15)

They've got a new sound bite to add to the drivel...as well as fixing jobs and growing the economy, they've just added 'community safety' to the cliched answer listings of what this govt is doing. Must have been a few tragedies in the last couple days.....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/9/15)

Ant they Axed the Carbon Tax...


----------



## seamad (11/9/15)

and not surprisingly carbon emissions have started shooting up since


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/9/15)

....and they axed the mining tax.


Apart from that, they have achieved **** all


----------



## madpierre06 (11/9/15)

Yeah, but their slogans are without peer.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/9/15)

Yeah, you got me there


----------



## Burt de Ernie (11/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yeah, but they stopped the boats.


 That's 1 up on the ALP....


----------



## Burt de Ernie (11/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I agree that the figures aren't accurate, but they must have a bench mark to work from. Otherwise the ABS wouldn't be able to say whether the figures have gone up or down.
> In any government you will also have the faceless employees working for cash, and I believe that is far higher than most people would imagine, we also have to take a few percentage points off for those that won't work.


Not to mention a whole heap of people who have the money working for them


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> That's 1 up on the ALP....


Hardly a glowing recommendation.
'Hey guys we did possibly mildly better than a bunch of infighting geese whose politics become more like ours every day. High five'.


----------



## butisitart (11/9/15)

tweedle dee or tweedle dum.
where's gough when you need him??

penny wong sounds like a good future. at least she sounds calm, intelligent and doesn't say everything 4 times cos we're too stupid to get it the first 3 times.


----------



## madpierre06 (11/9/15)

Did they stop the boats, or just stop the reporting of the boats? And how is that anything to boast about, there's a lot of blood on the hands of this mob. Just ask those sent back with full knowledge of the torture and death awaiting them.


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

Goats mate. They stopped the goats.

Fucken goats


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

And recent labor's policies on asylum seekers are/were shameful and just as disingenuous.


----------



## madpierre06 (11/9/15)

Ahh, sorry, missed the typo. And yeah, I'm not saying the other mob are not as culpable.....there's much reason for all of 'em to hang their heads in shame, if they understood the meaning of the word.


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

Bastards one and all.


----------



## goomboogo (11/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I agree that the figures aren't accurate, but they must have a bench mark to work from. Otherwise the ABS wouldn't be able to say whether the figures have gone up or down.
> In any government you will also have the faceless employees working for cash, and I believe that is far higher than most people would imagine, we also have to take a few percentage points off for those that won't work.


I wasn't questioning the accuracy of the numbers. I was pointing out the rather parlous state of the jobs market.
.


----------



## goomboogo (11/9/15)

Please don't stop the goats. Goat curry is awesome.


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

Stop them eating your lawn by killing them , buying them cut up from fantastic halal butchers on places like sydney rd and then making curry from them while drinking beer.


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

Vote one Me


----------



## goomboogo (11/9/15)

manticle said:


> Stop them eating your lawn by killing them , buying them cut up from fantastic halal butchers on places like sydney rd and then making curry from them while drinking beer.





manticle said:


> Vote one Me


This is the best policy platform I've seen in a while. The 7:30 interview will be a cracker.

Leigh Sales: Prime Minister Manticle, I would like to talk about the state of the national economy.
Manticle: Leigh, try my goat curry.
Leigh Sales: Sorry Prime Minister, what does that have to do with the economy.
Manticle: Well Leigh, the grass may be a bit long but the goats have been stopped and this can only be good for jobs.


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

I also have bacon and beer so my political platform is a one stop shop.


----------



## manticle (11/9/15)

If I were an LNP supporter, Tony Abbot would make me cry.
I'm not an ALP supporter but various front benchers including Rudd have brought tears to my face many times.
Surely anyone would be embarassed by the current incompetence, (he said/she said politics aside) and want someone new to represent their ideals.
This is the lowest we've sunk since white australia, last labor government was probably a close second.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Almost half the jobs are part-time jobs. The ABS Labour Force (seasonally adjusted) estimates for August 2015 show underemployment at 8.4% and total labour underutilisation rate was 14.3 per cent. This represents more than one million people underemployed with a total of 1.8 million workers either unemployed or underemployed. In terms of employment, the country is definitely going backwards as these figures present a picture that is far from rosy. What was Manticle saying yesterday about damned statistics. They can say anything a person wants them to say.


You have got it all wrong. The LNP are now going to include those on unemployment benefits as working as they will be " working for the dole "


----------



## mje1980 (12/9/15)

I'll bet the casual worker getting 12 hrs a week will be stoked he's not unemployed. Thanks Tony Abbott !


----------



## goomboogo (12/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You have got it all wrong. The LNP are now going to include those on unemployment benefits as working as they will be " working for the dole "


I stand corrected. Both the present day and the future will be all beer and skittles. These are indeed our salad days. I was mistaken in thinking it was more a case of Salad Fingers days.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

Yep. The LNP will class any person as getting any sort of money of any description as being employed. Unemployment figures will then become irrelevant as 99.99% of the population will be classed as employed


And they stopped the boats, axed the tax & made coal good for humanity


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

At least one federal governemnt MP has admitted that climate change is real

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/dutton-overheard-joking-about-sea-levels-in-pacific-islands/6768324


----------



## manticle (12/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> I was mistaken in thinking it was more a case of Salad Fingers days.


Hubert Cumberdale for PM


----------



## goomboogo (12/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yep. The LNP will class any person as getting any sort of money of any description as being employed. Unemployment figures will then become irrelevant as 99.99% of the population will be classed as employed
> 
> 
> And they stopped the boats, axed the tax & made coal good for humanity


I agree that the official figures for employment are built on a disingenuous foundation But to be fair, it doesn't matter which party is in government, they will use the same dubious definers of employment.


----------



## madpierre06 (12/9/15)

Hanrahan was right.


----------



## goomboogo (12/9/15)

manticle said:


> Hubert Cumberdale for PM


He'll fit right in because as we all know, he tastes like soot and poo.


----------



## seamad (12/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Hanrahan was right.


we'll all be rooned


----------



## madpierre06 (12/9/15)

That's the fella.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (12/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> I agree that the official figures for employment are built on a disingenuous foundation But to be fair, it doesn't matter which party is in government, they will use the same dubious definers of employment.


Spot on.....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

manticle said:


> I also have bacon and beer so my political platform is a one stop shop.


Have you ever wrapped bacon around a fillet of goat ( with seeded mustard ) and done it in the oven.

Goes very well with beer

Vote 1 Manticle for PM


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> I agree that the official figures for employment are built on a disingenuous foundation But to be fair, it doesn't matter which party is in government, they will use the same dubious definers of employment.


Yeah, but its all Labor's fault.


Now what ever happened to the budget emergency.... seems that making the debt level higher has fixed the problem... Maybe Christopher Pyne fixed it


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Not to mention a whole heap of people who have the money working for them


Very true, I wonder if the pensioners who didn't put money away for their old age and are now having to carry on working, are they included in the jobs figures.


----------



## manticle (12/9/15)

Goat bacon


Ducatiboy stu said:


> Have you ever wrapped bacon around a fillet of goat ( with seeded mustard ) and done it in the oven.
> 
> Goes very well with beer
> 
> Vote 1 Manticle for PM



Is there anything bacon cannot do?


----------



## seamad (12/9/15)

solve the problems in the middle east


----------



## manticle (12/9/15)

Only because so many refuse to eat it. I reckon warring parties should make truces based around cured pork products.


----------



## dicko (12/9/15)

seamad said:


> solve the problems in the middle east






Problem solved........or made worse???


----------



## seamad (12/9/15)

hasn't worked out too well so far


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

Dont think the jewish would go for it...



manticle said:


> Only because so many refuse to eat it. I reckon warring parties should make truces based around cured pork products.


Cant see the Jews or Muslims going for it

On the flip side, more Bacon & Ham for us atheists and agnostics


----------



## malt and barley blues (12/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> At least we have universal health care.
> 
> No if's. no but's,
> 
> ...


FTFY


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> FTFY


Oh dear, our health care system is free. 

If you want to go private and pay then that is up to you. But it doesnt make it better than the public system. 

Note: Elective surgery is a different case, you can pay to have your done when you want rather than having to wait on line


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/9/15)

You do not get the best health care available with our health system, urgent surgery would be the same as private, but the best drugs and medicines available are not available to the public or private patients,they are usually so expensive that the health care system cannot afford to pay for them they have to be paid for by the patient.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> You do not get the best health care available with our health system, urgent surgery would be the same as private, but the best drugs and medicines available are not available to the public or private patients,they are usually so expensive that the health care system cannot afford to pay for them they have to be paid for by the patient.


There are always going to be exceptions like that. And even the best drugs and medicines are not allways available to those who can afford them. 

And sorry WEAL, I will argue that we do get the best health care available in our health care system


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/9/15)

Best health care compared to who? Do you mean we get the beast health care in the world.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

So who, according to you, has "The Best" health care in the world and why ?


----------



## wobbly (12/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And sorry WEAL, I will argue that we do get the best health care available in our health care system


You have to be joking!!!
If my wife had elected to go through the "public health system" for her surgery and chemotherapy associated with small bowel cancer she was told it would be a 6 to 9 month wait as it was not considered to be immediate life threatening and therefore not urgent at the time.- We were fortunate and able to go via the private health system and she went into surgery 3 days after seeing the surgeon (a week after receiving the above advise) followed by two rounds of chemo without any wait period.
Not many weeks go by with out a report somewhere (Newspaper,TV etc) detailing the extensive wait times for people waiting for treatment in the public system for cancer related illnesses. Try getting an MRI or PET scan in the public system in under three to six months where as via the private system we got MRI scans within 1 to 2 weeks max and PET scans within three weeks. Some surgery for cancer related illnesses can have you waiting for up to 12 months

Not sure what this has got to the original subject but seems appropriate in the context of the current direction of this thread 

Wobbly


----------



## manticle (12/9/15)

WHO have a list. Haven't looked at the criteria but we are ranked 32.

Still think provision of health services and education are two of the most important services a government can provide.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

wobbly said:


> Try getting an MRI or PET scan in the public system in under three to six months


I have had a an MRI in the same day I was admitted to a public hospital.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/9/15)

According to the World Health Organisation.

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

If our health system was going to improve we will have to pay more than what we are paying now, as Dave 70 said in an earlier post we go to work, pay taxes, retire, and the government hope you fall off the perch.
People are going to be living longer but it only means a bigger strain on our health system, retirement be locked in at an older age and pensions will come down with super kicking in.


----------



## wobbly (12/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have had a an MRI in the same day I was admitted to a public hospital.


Fair enough but what conditions were you admitted to hospital? General Admission or Emergency Department
It sounds like you were "in the system" and not on the list waiting to get in the system

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

I agree we are going to have to pay more. This is a fact that cant be avoided, largely due to the baby boomer population.

Health care costs big bucks. You wont get any arguments from me there, and if we all have to pay more tax's to pay for our health care system then I am all for it. As long it is for everyone, not just a select few


----------



## manticle (12/9/15)

The number 1 country (France) on that list have a universal healthcare system so our model is on the right track.
Everyone is covered, rich or poor for everything from mental illness to terminal, broken legs to dental care. Everyone contributes.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (12/9/15)

I would like to know how they compare each countries health care system...

Each country is going to be different due to a number of factors like population, population health, geography etc


----------



## manticle (12/9/15)

The list has been criticised (mostly I think because the US fares so poorly) and it is 15 yrs old but they base it on a few factors. Average life expectancy, financial contribution per capita, access, a few other things I think. There's various other rankings including one done in 2014 but that's europe only (dutch come out on top with that one).


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> According to the World Health Organisation.
> 
> http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/
> 
> ...


I know.....what about a $7.00 co-payment?


----------



## Camo6 (13/9/15)

seamad said:


> hasn't worked out too well so far


Depends on perspective I guess. With all the oil pumped out of the Middle East they could've been a major contender if not for all the war.
So I guess if you were a super power sitting on the largest oil reserve in the world it could be conceived as working out very well!


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I know.....what about a $7.00 co-payment?


Why didn't that go ahead?


----------



## madpierre06 (13/9/15)

Bronwyn's charter costs had risen. They had to be covered and sacrifices had to be made.


----------



## dicko (13/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Bronwyn's charter costs had risen. They had to be covered and sacrifices had to be made.


Bronwyn who?????


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Why didn't that go ahead?


Something to do with those that could least afford it, who also tend to visit the doctor more than those that could afford it.

The same people who dont drive cars as stated by Joe Hockey


----------



## Tropico (13/9/15)

"Goodbye Tony". Didn't Bronwyn say to Tony " if I go, you go"


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Tropico said:


> "Goodbye Tony". Didn't Bronwyn say to Tony " if I go, you go"


He didnt write it down. Remember he once famously said that not believe anything he said unless it was written down and signed


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Something to do with those that could least afford it, who also tend to visit the doctor more than those that could afford it.
> 
> The same people who dont drive cars as stated by Joe Hockey


I know....lets increase the Medicare levy for those who can most afford it, then those who can most afford it will ask for and get pay rises from companies that will then increase the cost of product which the people who can least afford it will end up paying..


----------



## Tropico (13/9/15)

So if Tony sacks Joe Hockey in an attempt to shore up his supporters, will Joe put in a bid for PM?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Something to do with those that could least afford it, who also tend to visit the doctor more than those that could afford it.
> 
> The same people who dont drive cars as stated by Joe Hockey


Well wouldn't a socialist want to pay more say $10 co-payment to cover those who couldn't afford it which wouldn't have been many as concession card holders and under 16's were exempt.



Burt de Ernie said:


> I know....lets increase the Medicare levy for those who can most afford it, then those who can most afford it will ask for and get pay rises from companies that will then increase the cost of product which the people who can least afford it will end up paying..


You'r moving ahead to fast there Burt de Earnie.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I know....lets increase the Medicare levy for those who can most afford it, then those who can most afford it will ask for and get pay rises from companies that will then increase the cost of product which the people who can least afford it will end up paying..


You are thinking like the LNP 

Medicare levy is across the board. It is the same % for everyone. Yes the more you earn the more you pay. Thats life.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Well wouldn't a socialist want to pay more say $10 co-payment to cover those who couldn't afford it which wouldn't have been many as concession card holders and under 16's were exempt.


I dont see anything wrong with that. If you can afford to pay it, pay it.


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> then those who can most afford it will ask for and get pay rises from companies


Is it as simple as that? It's no wonder wages are spiralling out of control.


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Yeah you just ask 'please sir, can I have some more?'

And that's it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> Yeah you just ask 'please sir, can I have some more?'
> 
> And that's it.


More..you want more....


----------



## booargy (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I know....lets increase the Medicare levy for those who can most afford it, then those who can most afford it will ask for and get pay rises from companies that will then increase the cost of product which the people who can least afford it will end up paying..


I know let's reduce wages and increase the cost of basic living costs so the people who can least afford it have less excess cash to spend on "luxuries". So spending goes down and the companies who bring their goods in from China start to sell less. They have to then sack people and get more work out of the people who are left. The government chucks in and allows them to contribute less to the country in taxes. They also help to get more out of the employees. This is good for everyone (economy) the people who got sacked could only get casual jobs so they stash the cash under the bed and don't spend anything. To make it better and improve the economy/country the thing to do is get less for your product and just sell more and to reduce your costs might as well just let them come and get it themselves cost **** all you don't have to put up with unions wanting more for the plebs you just takes your cut. Our country (I) makes a killing


----------



## booargy (13/9/15)

Makes sense doesn't it I wonder what came first. The pleb or the doer?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

The wealth of a society comes overwhelmingly from one single source--the ability of enterprising people to look to the future and see the opportunity to make profits (an evil concept to socialists). When they can, they get busy and the productive cycle starts that brings employment and goods and services. When they can't, they register with the government to be sure to get their share of the pie, what little there is.




goomboogo said:


> Is it as simple as that? It's no wonder wages are spiralling out of control.


The rail strikers don't want to accept the generous offer of 17% as they were shouting at their rally, 'What do we want, 18% when do we want it, we want it now' It all increases wages and cost of living


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Is it as simple as that? It's no wonder wages are spiralling out of control.


Are they... guess I and many others have missed out somehwere


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The wealth of a society comes overwhelmingly from one single source--the ability of enterprising people to look to the future and see the opportunity to make profits (an evil concept to socialists). When they can, they get busy and the productive cycle starts that brings employment and goods and services. When they can't, they register with the government to be sure to get their share of the pie, what little there is.
> 
> 
> The rail strikers don't want to accept the generous offer of 17% as they were shouting at their rally, 'What do we want, 18% when do we want it, we want it now' It all increases wages and cost of living


That because they want a better work-life balance. They dont want to be working the long hours that their masters want them to.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The wealth of a society comes overwhelmingly from one single source--the ability of enterprising people to look to the future and see the opportunity to make profits (an evil concept to socialists). When they can, they get busy and the productive cycle starts that brings employment and goods and services. When they can't, they register with the government to be sure to get their share of the pie, what little there is.
> 
> 
> The rail strikers don't want to accept the generous offer of 17% as they were shouting at their rally, 'What do we want, 18% when do we want it, we want it now' It all increases wages and cost of living


"I'm entitled to it because I dropped out of school and did a three day course..."


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> Is it as simple as that? It's no wonder wages are spiralling out of control.


As long as mine keeps spiraling up I`ll be fine......


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> "I'm entitled to it because I dropped out of school and did a three day course..."


Are you a manager..?


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That because they want a better work-life balance. They dont want to be working the long hours that their masters want them to.


Most people who want better work life balance either become a boss however, I suspect that they would not like to become a boss because they would have to deal with workers similar to themselves.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Are you a manager..?


At the moment I have been forced to manage because I needed to justify the pay increase that I wanted.

Edit: Mind you I have to deal with a poor life work balance but hey....that the trade off I guess.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That because they want a better work-life balance. They dont want to be working the long hours that their masters want them to.


Internal Metro documents, seen by the _Herald Sun,_ show that an average driver, who with penalties and allowances is paid $140,000, drives 124km in 3.58 hours and is able to go home, but is still paid for an eight-hour shift.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

That does not sound right.

But then again who are we to argue against leaked "Internal Documents". to a Newscorp paper


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Internal Metro documents, seen by the _Herald Sun,_ show that an average driver, who with penalties and allowances is paid $140,000, drives 124km in 3.58 hours and is able to go home, but is still paid for an eight-hour shift.


There is a reason while actual conditions are never made public.......


With all this hoo haa going on I would have thought they were getting paid 50k.

140k for unskilled labor.......what an awesome country we live in


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Maybe you should give up your poorly paid job as a manager and become a train driver


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

But it's boring 

Rail Tram and Bus Union ­secretary Luba Grigorovitch said: “The current proposal which Metro has put forward is unacceptable because Metro wants drivers to go up and back the same track day, in day out. This will lead to complacency and boredom.”


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Are they... guess I and many others have missed out somehwere


Some would accuse me of sarcasm. I prefer to think my comment was facetious and ironic.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> But it's boring
> 
> Rail Tram and Bus Union ­secretary Luba Grigorovitch said: “The current proposal which Metro has put forward is unacceptable because Metro wants drivers to go up and back the same track day, in day out. This will lead to complacency and boredom.”



Well, having worked on the railways I can say ( having known a lot of drivers in my time ) that driving trains is very very boring. And yes it does lead to complacency. This is why they roster drivers on different roads over the course of the fortnight to stop complacency and increase safety. You become more aware if your surroundings are always changing. They do the same with pilots

Its not as simplistic as you want it to be WEAL


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> But it's boring
> 
> Rail Tram and Bus Union ­secretary Luba Grigorovitch said: “The current proposal which Metro has put forward is unacceptable because Metro wants drivers to go up and back the same track day, in day out. This will lead to complacency and boredom.”


This is comedic....


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The wealth of a society comes overwhelmingly from one single source--the ability of enterprising people to look to the future and see the opportunity to make profits (an evil concept to socialists). When they can, they get busy and the productive cycle starts that brings employment and goods and services. When they can't, they register with the government to be sure to get their share of the pie, what little there is.


This highlights that even though many business owners understand their own business and attendant environment, they mostly have a very poor grasp of macroeconomics.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its not as simplistic as you want it to be WEAL


All Metro is wanting to do is bringing Melbourne into line with the rest of Europe, that is how they run over there.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> This highlights that even though many business owners understand their own business and attendant environment, they mostly have a very poor grasp of macroeconomics.


 What was Manticle saying yesterday about damned statistics. They can say anything a person wants them to say.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Bit like leaking internal documents to make the union look bad to a Newscorp Paper


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> All Metro is wanting to do is bringing Melbourne into line with the rest of Europe, that is how they run over there.


I didnt know Victoria was a member of the EU.....


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> What was Manticle saying yesterday about damned statistics. They can say anything a person wants them to say.


On this occasion it has nothing to do with statistical interpretation. It's about a limited understanding of basic principles. Often, this eventuates from an inability to see the forest for the trees.


----------



## Bridges (13/9/15)

WTF Listen to the train drivers! I don't want poorly trained and poorly rested drivers in my trains. When they start falling asleep and killing people we'll all be happy that Metro saved a few dollars.


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> As long as mine keeps spiraling up I`ll be fine......


If you have no care for others, I hope you don't expect anyone to care about you.

As if train drivers get 140 k a year on average. A donkey can see that's total bollocks.


----------



## Airgead (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The wealth of a society comes overwhelmingly from one single source--the ability of enterprising people to look to the future and see the opportunity to make profits (an evil concept to socialists).


Ummm... no. Nothing wrong with profits. Profits are good. All we ask is that you don't make profits at the expense of others. Don't underpay workers, don't skimp on their conditions so you can make a few extra bucks. Give those who work for you a fair slice of the pie. Sure your slice can be bigger (its your business after all) but not so big that others suffer.

And to whoever said that wages are spiralling out of control.. actually no. Wage growth is currently at 2.5%... the lowest in about 20 years. And its been declining steadily since the 90s. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to increase their share of the pie at the expense of others.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Automated trains aren't that far away, safer too apparently, so the train drivers better make the most of it.

http://nwrail.transport.nsw.gov.au/The-Project/Sydney-Metro-network


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Its no secret that driverless trains are coming. They already use them in the Pilbara.

The interlocking and safeworking ( which are actually government legislation ) in metro areas is a little bit more complex, Its the same as when they bought in computer based interlocking to replace mechanical interlocking. Looked great on paper, the reality was a little bit different

They even have driverless trucks in the EU ( the EU that is not in Australia )

There is nothing wrong with technology and progress


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

I was the person who made the comment about wages spiralling out of control. It was a joke. It was said ironically. I just don't like to use emoticons.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Bridges said:


> WTF Listen to the train drivers! I don't want poorly trained and poorly rested drivers in my trains. When they start falling asleep and killing people we'll all be happy that Metro saved a few dollars.


Train drivers sleep at the wheel?


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> If you have no care for others, I hope you don't expect anyone to care about you.
> 
> As if train drivers get 140 k a year on average. A donkey can see that's total bollocks.


I`ve yet to hear about the train drivers striking to increase managers conditions........

In your mind what is a train driver worth?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Ummm... no. Nothing wrong with profits. Profits are good. All we ask is that you don't make profits at the expense of others. Don't underpay workers, don't skimp on their conditions so you can make a few extra bucks. Give those who work for you a fair slice of the pie. Sure your slice can be bigger (its your business after all) but not so big that others suffer.
> 
> And to whoever said that wages are spiralling out of control.. actually no. Wage growth is currently at 2.5%... the lowest in about 20 years. And its been declining steadily since the 90s. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to increase their share of the pie at the expense of others.


Profits are good, and anyone running a business who underpays workers and skimps on conditions will fall foul of that old adage pay peanuts and you will get monkeys, employees should have to refrain from wanting to big a slice of the pie also, or else there will be no pie left.


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Average national wage for train drivers is under 100k (80-90 roughly from what I can find). Depends a bit on where, how long you've been doing it, etc but to suggest train drivers are all on 140k is ludicrous.

Not suggesting 80+ isn't a decent wage, above average and above mine.


----------



## madpierre06 (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Profits are good, and anyone running a business who underpays workers and skimps on conditions will fall foul of that old adage pay peanuts and you will get monkeys, employees should have to refrain from wanting to big a slice of the pie also, or else there will be no pie left.


Agreed....under normal conditions. However, the 'labour market' has been manipulated to the point where even very capable and excellent workers are being forced to squabble for peanuts as thatr is all that is left in most circumstances. And this has been a very deliberate policy. Not much pie left these days, and now we have imported monkeys to compete with as well who are more than happy to dine on peanuts. 

I saw the term 'labour force report' the other day...I recall a couple regimes in the mid 40's had labour forces as well.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> Average national wage for train drivers is under 100k (80-90 roughly from what I can find). Depends a bit on where, how long you've been doing it, etc but to suggest train drivers are all on 140k is ludicrous.
> 
> Not suggesting 80+ isn't a decent wage, above average and above mine.


The 140k number was apparently "leaked". Other than what has been posted here, I have no idea on what they are paid however, for my mind I would have thought that 80k for what I believe is equivalent to unskilled work is well over paid. I would imagine this is due to a unionized industry.

I guess this is one of the reasons is more cost effective to buy, run and maintain a new car for the use of commuting than use public transport.


----------



## madpierre06 (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> At the moment I have been forced to manage because I needed to justify the pay increase that I wanted.
> 
> Edit: Mind you I have to deal with a poor life work balance but hey....that the trade off I guess.


I would actually think that your work performance and what value you bring to the business would be justification for a pay increase, having to do extra work to justify it means there is no real value raise. Still, that's your call to make and I have no right to judge you for that.

And for me, I don't see a valid point in eating pie if there's no joy in sharing it with my family. I'd rather have peanuts, learn to be gateful that I have something to eat, and REALLY enjoy a nice piece of pie when I'm blessed enough to have some on the plate. And also be working towards helping others are are actually lucky to get peanuts, and be able to have cashew pie for myself when I'm qualified.


----------



## Bridges (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Train drivers sleep at the wheel?


Only if forced to work unreasonably long shifts...


----------



## Airgead (13/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> I was the person who made the comment about wages spiralling out of control. It was a joke. It was said ironically. I just don't like to use emoticons.


Fair enough. After 72 pages of posts that should have been ironic but were actually intended seriously... my irony meter is a little off.

And to whoever suggested that train driving is unskilled work... you can have an unskilled train driver. I'll take a highly skilled, well trained train/bus/plane driver any day.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Train drivers sleep at the wheel?


Its actually very difficult for a train driver to fall asleep at the wheel. They have a number of interlocking features like deadmans pedal, acknowledge bell every 5-10 mins and automatic emergency braking that cuts in. Trains are actaully very safe.

But the control of a train is very complex. They dont work like a normal truck or car. In fact they tend to work a bit the opposite .

And many a driver has called it quits from accidently killing someone due to suicide or getting stuck on tracks.


----------



## malt and barley blues (13/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Internal Metro documents, seen by the _Herald Sun,_ show that an average driver, who with penalties and allowances is paid $140,000, drives 124km in 3.58 hours and is able to go home, but is still paid for an eight-hour shift.


I'd be pretty knackered if I had to work a 3.58 hour shift. :lol:


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And many a driver has called it quits from accidently killing someone due to suicide or getting stuck on tracks.


I have heard this I and I cant even fathom what this would be like to deal with.


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I'd be pretty knackered if I had to work a 3.58 hour shift. :lol:


You should be knackered if you believe the herald sun


----------



## Camo6 (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And many a driver has called it quits from accidently killing someone due to suicide or getting stuck on tracks.



^ To me, this is one of the big factors when it comes to their salary. You don't hear much about this form of suicide but it happens more than it should. I had a friend seek counselling after witnessing a suicide from the station platform. Imagine if you were staring out the window of the drivers seat when it happened.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Remember that the train driver is at the pointy end of the train. When shit happens they are the the first to see it.

Remember that the train your sitting on going to work with hundreds of passengers is under the control of 1 person out front. 

Not many people realise that when a train driver fucks up the get a new asshole. And unions are one of the primary drivers of train safety. 

Think about this. You are in control of the lives of not only yourself, but your passengers and those that are on track. 

Trains cannot stop like cars or trucks. When a train hits some thing the driver is is first person to get get killed or injured.

I have seen the results of fatigued train drivers. You dont want to go there, Coronial inquests, legislation changes, the whole bit.


----------



## wobbly (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its no secret that driverless trains are coming. They already use them in the Pilbara.


*Not true.* All iron ore trains in the Pilbara have a driver on board, however there are driverless trucks and drill rigs at both Rio and BHPB controlled from a central control center located in Perth.

And as to wages check this out http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-Pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012 for some drivers reportedly working a 42 hour week for a take home pay of $240,000, with a yard driver earning on average $145,000 per year and those figures were for back in 2013 Imagine what they are on now/today 

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

They have been trialing driverless trains


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wobbly said:


> *Not true.* All iron ore trains in the Pilbara have a driver on board, however there are driverless trucks and drill rigs at both Rio and BHPB controlled from a central control center located in Perth.
> 
> And as to wages check this out http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-Pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012 for some drivers reportedly working a 42 hour week for a take home pay of $240,000, with a yard driver earning on average $145,000 per year and those figures were for back in 2013 Imagine what they are on now/today
> 
> Wobbly



Good to see your comparing apples


----------



## Airgead (13/9/15)

wobbly said:


> *Not true.* All iron ore trains in the Pilbara have a driver on board, however there are driverless trucks and drill rigs at both Rio and BHPB controlled from a central control center located in Perth.
> 
> And as to wages check this out http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-Pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012 for some drivers reportedly working a 42 hour week for a take home pay of $240,000, with a yard driver earning on average $145,000 per year and those figures were for back in 2013 Imagine what they are on now/today
> 
> Wobbly


You know what? They are welcome to it. I catch the train every day (Sydney not Melb but whatevs) and I would rather pay a little more on my ticket to know that there is a well paid, contented, highly trained driver up front not some bored, under trained, minimum wage dweeb.

I want to get home to my family each night, not die in twisted wreckage.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## malt and barley blues (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> You should be knackered if you believe the herald sun


I suppose we should only believe the rags you read.


----------



## wobbly (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Good to see your comparing apples



*Train/tram drivers who earn over $104,000 a year*

*Region*

*No. of drivers*

 Pilbara, Western Australia

388

Melbourne City, Victoria

234

Mackay, Queensland

168

Gladstone-Biloela, Queensland

154

Newcastle, New South Wales

105

*Source: ABS (2011 Census for Population and Housing)*

Whilst my referenced article was about Pilbara train drivers the above would suggest that 234 train drivers in Melbourne City aren't doing to bad being paid over $104,000 per year and that was back in 2011 so what are they on now in 2015 and they have knocked back the offer of 3% now and another 14% over the next 3 years. Escalate the 2011 wage by inflation (3% per year) and then add the 17% on top of that the wage in 2018 would be around $140,000

And as to trialing driverless trains that's to resolve the technical issues mainly associated with train dynamics and braking, they are yet to come up with a cost effective solution as to how to protect idiot "Joe citizen" who doesn't want to "Stop, Look and Listen" when approaching a rail crossing. Grade separation is one way but very expensive

Wobbly


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

wobbly said:


> *Not true.* All iron ore trains in the Pilbara have a driver on board, however there are driverless trucks and drill rigs at both Rio and BHPB controlled from a central control center located in Perth.
> 
> And as to wages check this out http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-Pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012 for some drivers reportedly working a 42 hour week for a take home pay of $240,000, with a yard driver earning on average $145,000 per year and those figures were for back in 2013 Imagine what they are on now/today
> 
> Wobbly


As Stu pointed out, there is a vast difference between wages in a Pilbara mine and elsewhere in the country. Do you think an electrician working in Melbourne is paid at the same rate as an electrician at a BHP mine in the north west of Western Australia? The same applies to train drivers.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Exactly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wobbly said:


> *Train/tram drivers who earn over $104,000 a year* *Region* *No. of drivers* Pilbara, Western Australia 388 Melbourne City, Victoria 234 Mackay, Queensland 168 Gladstone-Biloela, Queensland 154 Newcastle, New South Wales 105 *Source: ABS (2011 Census for Population and Housing)*
> 
> Whilst my referenced article was about Pilbara train drivers the above would suggest that 234 train drivers in Melbourne City aren't doing to bad being paid over $104,000 per year and that was back in 2011 so what are they on now in 2015 and they have knocked back the offer of 3% now and another 14% over the next 3 years. Escalate the 2011 wage by inflation (3% per year) and then add the 17% on top of that the wage in 2018 would be around $140,000
> 
> ...


Do you honestly think that Melbourne metro driver are paid $100kpa an average


----------



## wobbly (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Do you honestly think that Melbourne metro driver are paid $100kpa an average


According to the _ABS census_ in 2011, 234 train drivers in Melbourne City, Victoria were paid higher than that which was the point I made.

But then I guess a lot of those that indicated that was their wage bracket may well have been telling "Porky Pies" 

Wobbly


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Fair enough. After 72 pages of posts that should have been ironic but were actually intended seriously... my irony meter is a little off.
> 
> And to whoever suggested that train driving is unskilled work... you can have an unskilled train driver. I'll take a highly skilled, well trained train/bus/plane driver any day.


It's not something I should be flippant about. I've long had an issue with the increasing disparity between the wages of CEOs/senior management and those on the lower rungs of the enterprise ladder. There is yet to be any genuine evidence to show the massive increases in management salaries have been matched by improvements in performance. Meanwhile, the real wage share for most workers has declined significantly. It is something I take seriously. My sarcastic comment was made in response to a comment that seemed to bare little semblance to reality.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Airgead said:


> You know what? They are welcome to it. I catch the train every day (Sydney not Melb but whatevs) and I would rather pay a little more on my ticket to know that there is a well paid, contented, highly trained driver up front not some bored, under trained, minimum wage dweeb.
> 
> I want to get home to my family each night, not die in twisted wreckage.
> 
> ...


Highly trained??

Do you mean they do a 4 day course over a 3 day course?

If these figures are true then I'm barracking for Metro......Shameful


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wobbly said:


> According to the _ABS census_ in 2011, 234 train drivers in Melbourne City, Victoria were paid higher than that which was the point I made.
> 
> But then I guess a lot of those that indicated that was their wage bracket may well have been telling "Porky Pies"
> 
> Wobbly


2011, only 243. How many train drivers where actually employed. ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> 2011, only 243. How many train drivers where actually employed. ?


That figure is for train and tram drivers.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

So there are only 243 train & tram drivers employed. 

No wonder they want a pay rise


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So there are only 243 train & tram drivers employed.
> 
> No wonder they want a pay rise


What does this have to do with pay?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

There are only 243 drivers on $100k +

The rest are working for the man


----------



## wobbly (13/9/15)

That's why Bromwyn went by Helicopter, she couldn't afford to travel by train with train drives being paid in excess of twice the average weekly wage of $1136 ($69,000 per year)

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

$69k

Better get my shit together


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I suppose we should only believe the rags you read.


Great riposte.
I don't form my opinions based on rags but please feel free to defend a source that is well known for bias, distortion of facts and cheap, populist rubbish. I'd probably suggest similar for socialist alliance paper if that helps.

Many years ago, when I was at art school, I used to collect bizarre, obviously ridiculous articles from papers like weekly world news. If you believe 'bat boy found alive in cave', you need medical help.
Funniest thing was that next to the bizarre' farmer shoots 10 foot moth' or 'chupacabra captured alive' articles was always one or two articles replicated in the HS or some of the more mainstream uk tabloids that idiots actually give credence to. Shakespeare may have smoked pot. Or not.

It's not about what I read. Look at the information provided, examine its sources and biases and ask if its reasonable, justified, believable or ultimately true. That patently is not and the simplest google search suggests as much.
140k. In whose world?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Thank **** that Newscorp papers are not the media arm of the LNP....

The great unwashed would never survive


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

wobbly said:


> *Not true.* All iron ore trains in the Pilbara have a driver on board, however there are driverless trucks and drill rigs at both Rio and BHPB controlled from a central control center located in Perth.
> 
> And as to wages check this out http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-Pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012 for some drivers reportedly working a 42 hour week for a take home pay of $240,000, with a yard driver earning on average $145,000 per year and those figures were for back in 2013 Imagine what they are on now/today
> 
> Wobbly


I missed how that had anything to do with metro melbourne drivers.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Apples & Peaches


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Highly trained??
> 
> Do you mean they do a 4 day course over a 3 day course?
> 
> If these figures are true then I'm barracking for Metro......Shameful


Based on actual knowledge of what's required for a train driver or pulled from your arse?
Pretty sure there are some massive exams over several months required to be qualified driver and the intake vs hopefuls is very small.

The kind of cost cutting, profit pushing, people ******* system you seem to support is what drives 3 day training course qualifications for dangerous machinery operation.


----------



## butisitart (13/9/15)

'



manticle said:


> If you believe 'bat boy found alive in cave', you need medical help.


'bat boy found alive in cave' were true. it were reported by professionals. how can you be so cynical??
if you want garbage, try and read 'That's LIfe'.
i were standing in the woolies queue today and i noticed a 'That's Life' headlining 'My fiancee is a stalker, wedding off'. i thought 'jeez, lucky MY missus never noticed.' h34r:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> Based on actual knowledge of what's required for a train driver or pulled from your arse?
> Pretty sure there are some massive exams over many months required to be s teain driver and the intake vs hopefuls is very small.
> 
> The kind of cost cutting, profit pushing, people ******* system you seem to support is what drives 3 day training course qualifications for dangerous machinery operation.


I can honestly say that the aforementioned poster knows **** all about what it takes to be a train driver

His comments deserve to be flushed down the shit house


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

butisitart said:


> '
> 
> 'bat boy found alive in cave' were true. it were reported by professionals. how can you be so cynical??
> if you want garbage, try and read 'That's LIfe'.
> i were standing in the woolies queue today and i noticed a 'That's Life' headlining 'My fiancee is a stalker, wedding off'. i thought 'jeez, lucky MY missus never noticed.' h34r:


Yes, but it must be true. Its ..well....true


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Highly trained??
> 
> Do you mean they do a 4 day course over a 3 day course?
> 
> If these figures are true then I'm barracking for Metro......Shameful


You really are an uneducated individual who knows **** all about what you are talking about

**** off back back to your box


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Stu - please modify the language.
I know it's easy to get emotive and I am guilty of this multiple times.
As a mod who has participated in this thread a fair bit, I don't want to moderate posts due to actual or perceived bias.

Please try and keep civil, same goes for anyone else including me.

**** off is not a civil phrase, please refrain from using it again.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> Based on actual knowledge of what's required for a train driver or pulled from your arse?
> Pretty sure there are some massive exams over several months required to be qualified driver and the intake vs hopefuls is very small.
> 
> The kind of cost cutting, profit pushing, people ******* system you seem to support is what drives 3 day training course qualifications for dangerous machinery operation.


Your right...I have no idea what it takes to be a train driver but I'm pretty sure there is no educational requirement.

You pull me up about pulling shit from my arse then in the same sentence you do exactly the same.

The point is, even if it takes months it is low skilled.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Sorry manticle

I just took offense at someone who knows very little about the subject ( train drivers ) he was going,on about

I can handle having a dig, but when people think they can have a shot at those who are actually highly trained I will take offence

I am the same if some knob comes in and say's they know how to wire a house because they watched a 10min youtube clip

I will not, ever, be apologetic to those who do not know the facts of someones trade or skill

Politics are a different matter

But yes, I do respect your need to tell me to pull my head in


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> Your right...I have no idea what it takes to be a train driver but I'm pretty sure there is no educational requirement.
> 
> You pull me up about pulling shit from my arse then in the same sentence you do exactly the same.
> 
> The point is, even if it takes months it is low skilled.


Low skilled...your shitting me. You ignorant....^%$#


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

@burt: It was a separate sentence and based on reading as opposed to totally made up (which even checking the metro training academy website would show your assessment to be). What do you consider defines a skill? I don't believe a monkey can drive a train nor an untrained 15 yo. If you require training to carry out a task, presumably you are skilled. Might be different levels of skills involved but driving a forklift, plane or semi trailer all require levels of training, qualifications and dare I say: skills. Why not a train?

Not sure what 'no educational requirement' means. So you mean there's no phD thesis you can submit on 'post structuralist interpretation of contemporary state funded rail based personnel movement from a socio-machiavellan/foucaultian perspective incorporating Lacanaian modifiers'?

If you need to sit a course and a test, that is education.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Go drive a train then .It pretty easy


http://oceanofgames.com/microsoft-train-simulator-free-download/


When you done, let me know when you want to fly a plane


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You really are an uneducated individual who knows **** all about what you are talking about
> 
> **** off back back to your box


Stu, you have made a number of good points in this thread none of which had the pointless venom of this comment so at this stage I think it prudent that you enlighten us all as to the train driver procurement process.

I would imagine that is something that only the top 95% of Aussies would be meet the performance criteria. I'm just saying.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

I very rarely make venomous points

You did well to get one out of me

Please do not patronise me


----------



## Camo6 (13/9/15)

Isn't the main reason the drivers are striking due to the attempt to de-skill their profession? It's not a 3 day course but their employers would like it to be. Easier qualifications means a larger workforce resulting in more competition and lower wages. Jeez, there's that recurring theme again. This union propaganda is widespread, yeah?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

manticle said:


> If you need to sit a course and a test, that is education.


And its not just a few days sitting in a room with a note pad pencil


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

I am not trying to upset you.

I am just saying that I view train driving similar to say truck driving. Yeah, you have to have all your licensing and what not, and you can be good at your job but its not something I consider highly skilled.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Camo6 said:


> Isn't the main reason the drivers are striking due to the attempt to de-skill their profession? It's not a 3 day course but their employers would like it to be. Easier qualifications means a larger workforce resulting in more competition and lower wages. Jeez, there's that recurring theme again. This union propaganda is widespread, yeah?


Does an easier qualification make it safer ...puleeze


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I am just saying that I view train driving similar to say truck driving


 Well dont


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I am not trying to upset you.
> 
> but its not something I consider highly skilled.


Thank the world you are not a train driver.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I am not trying to upset you.
> 
> I am just saying that I view train driving similar to say truck driving. Yeah, you have to have all your licensing and what not, and you can be good at your job but its not something I consider highly skilled.


Lots of truck drivers will no doubt agree with you on that point


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I am not trying to upset you.
> 
> I am just saying that I view train driving similar to say truck driving. Yeah, you have to have all your licensing and what not, and you can be good at your job but its not something I consider highly skilled.


Is that because you've driven trucks and trains?


----------



## Camo6 (13/9/15)

This thread is making me stoopider. I'm out.


----------



## manticle (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Does an easier qualification make it safer ...puleeze


Pretty sure camo is on the side of quality training and good conditions for skilled workers.


----------



## wombil (13/9/15)

Can Bronwyn drive a train?


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

I have never driven a truck or train and I couldn't if you asked me. That doesn't mean I couldn't learn it.

My brother is a truck driver and he has a multitude of licenses but even he would not consider his profession high skilled.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

wombil said:


> Can Bronwyn drive a train?


She is the best.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I have never driven a truck or train and I couldn't if you asked me.


Best be not commenting on it then


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

I probably should not comment on the LNP for that matter either


----------



## Burt de Ernie (13/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Best be not commenting on it then


This thread would be a page 1 if everybody abided by this comment.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/15)

Page 75

Wonder what the day shift have to add


----------



## malt and barley blues (14/9/15)

manticle said:


> Great riposte.
> I don't form my opinions based on rags but please feel free to defend a source that is well known for bias, distortion of facts and cheap, populist rubbish. I'd probably suggest similar for socialist alliance paper if that helps.
> 
> Many years ago, when I was at art school, I used to collect bizarre, obviously ridiculous articles from papers like weekly world news. If you believe 'bat boy found alive in cave', you need medical help.
> ...


Thanks for the lecture and an insight to your Psyche, I can understand your skepticism from newspaper articles after your fascination with the bizarre articles you used to collect, it must have been a disappointment to discover they weren't true.

If you had taken the time to follow your own advice you would have found that one of the points of issue Metro has with the train drivers is that a train driver is only allowed to drive 200 kilometers per shift, if he has completed his 200 K then he gets his 8 hours pay and is entitled to leave, or as most do go onto overtime, even though they may have only done 3 or 4 hours.


----------



## manticle (14/9/15)

Do you actually have an unbiased source for your claim (which was what my 'lecture' was about)?

It is patently untrue that average (read average - presumably mean or median) train drivers actually earn 140k per year.

Not sure about the 200km thing nor how fair that is within a normal shift but all sources I've read so far, including abc AND herald sun suggest metro are pushing to reduce the skill level required to drive trains in order to reduce base salary.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/9/15)

Metro are not reducing skill level, they just want to train the drivers on less runs, the metro system is going to be split into a division of 5, drivers will be allocated to those divisions, so the training is not on all the track, just which ever division the driver is in.

At present it takes 70 weeks to train a driver in the current system, but it will be 20 weeks within each division as it is in Europe.

That 200 km limit on a driver each shift has been in operation since the days of steam.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/9/15)

Reading some of last nights posts it seems a couple of posters need some anger management, how can anyone get angry about posts which are made in a thread which means a poofteenth of **** all to other readers. Letting anger get the better of you is a weakness, which doesn't serve any purpose.


----------



## Dave70 (14/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Page 75
> 
> Wonder what the day shift have to add


Marc Marquez.
2010 125cc world champion, 2012 Moto 2 world champion, 2013 and 2014 Moto GP world champion. Fastest ever recorded speed on a moto GP bike - 350 kph at Qatar. Youngest ever rider to do so. First rider since King Kenny Roberts to take the premier title in his first season. 

Doesn't even hold a road riding licence. Thus, unskilled. 


Soon to be getting a helicopter licence.
Probably..


----------



## wombil (14/9/15)

wombil, on 13 Sept 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:




wombil said:


> Can Bronwyn drive a train?


She is the best.

Ben Chifley could drive a train.


----------



## pcmfisher (14/9/15)

The next thing is whether being a Union Rep is a skilled occupation..............


----------



## seamad (14/9/15)

Goodbye Tony


----------



## MHB (14/9/15)

Here is hoping...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (14/9/15)

had a good chuckle at this:

http://junkee.com/youre-all-a-bunch-a-wan-keeeeers/65456


----------



## JDW81 (14/9/15)

seamad said:


> Goodbye Tony


Yep, looks like the mad monk is about to get knifed. I thought we were getting stable government/had adults back in charge when the liberals resumed their rightful place at the helm of HMAS Australia.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> That 200 km limit on a driver each shift has been in operation since the days of steam.


Bollocks


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

From Fair Work Australia

Minimum wage for a Metro driver is about $34K pa. Long way from $104K pa

*AP811428 - Locomotive Drivers (Victoria) Award 2001*
*14. RATES OF PAY - ADULTS*

_[new 14 inserted by _PR930470_ ppc 14Apr03]_

*14.1 Wage rates*
*14.1.1* Employees will be paid the following minimum rates of pay:


*Classification*


*Minimum Award Rate per week*​ 



$​ 





L1 Locomotive Driver (Trainee New Start)


$371.80​ 

L2 Locomotive Driver (Trainee qualified stage 2)


$410.00​ 

L3 Locomotive Driver (Trainee 12 Months)


$470.50​ 

L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line)*


$568.30​ 

L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Shunting (V/Line)


$615.30​ 

L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Operation (V/Line)


$662.30​ 

L5 Locomotive Driver Single Person Operation (Metropolitan)


$662.30​ 

*14.1.2* The L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line) is the key classification for this award. The relativity to the _Railways Metal Trades Grades Award_ [AW817167] C10 classification is 125.2%.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (14/9/15)

seamad said:


> Goodbye Tony


Along with the ALP`s hopes and dreams...


----------



## Burt de Ernie (14/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> From Fair Work Australia
> 
> Minimum wage for a Metro driver is about $34K pa. Long way from $104K pa
> 
> ...


*14.1 Wage rates*
*14.1.1* Employees will be paid the following minimum rates of pay:

*Classification*
*Minimum Award Rate per week*​ 
$​ 
L1 Locomotive Driver (Trainee New Start)
$371.80​L2 Locomotive Driver (Trainee qualified stage 2)
$410.00​L3 Locomotive Driver (Trainee 12 Months)
$470.50​L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line)*
$568.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Shunting (V/Line)
$615.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Operation (V/Line)
$662.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Single Person Operation (Metropolitan)
$662.30​
*14.1.2* The L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line) is the key classification for this award. The relativity to the _Railways Metal Trades Grades Award_ [AW817167] C10 classification is 125.2%.



Enlightened!

I now support the train drivers...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

If Turnbull gets in, Shorten is screwed.


----------



## MHB (14/9/15)

Can anyone suggest a Labour parliamentarian with a winning personality - I think they are going to need one. 
M


----------



## Tropico (14/9/15)

seamad said:


> Goodbye Tony


Maybe the other Bishop will have a go for PM


----------



## madpierre06 (14/9/15)

MHB said:


> Can anyone suggest a Labour parliamentarian with a winning personality - I think they are going to need one.
> M


Tom Burns was the last one.


----------



## manticle (14/9/15)

Tanya plibersek is closest depending on how you define 'winning'.
Not a great bunch to be choosing from unfortunately (either side).


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

Penny. Cause we need more lesbians as leaders of the workd


----------



## manticle (14/9/15)

We need more women who aren't witches. I'd cope with Penny too.


----------



## madpierre06 (14/9/15)

Albanese I like.


----------



## Bribie G (14/9/15)

Well the toxic chimp looks to be well shafted.

The best outcome is going to be, as predicted by media commentators, that Kevin Rudd's sabotage and white anting, that brought Gillard down, will be kindergarten playground squabbling compared to the damage that Rabbid is going to unleash on the LNP coming up to the next election.

Go toned abbs, go. ....... hahahahahahahhahahahaha


----------



## Burt de Ernie (14/9/15)

MHB said:


> Can anyone suggest a Labour parliamentarian with a winning personality - I think they are going to need one.
> M



I cant believe that I am saying this but I think the ALP are going to have to Rudd.....


----------



## manticle (14/9/15)

I wanted Abbot to stay leader.
Surefire way to get LNP to lose next election.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (14/9/15)

manticle said:


> I wanted Abbot to stay leader.
> Surefire way to get LNP to lose next election.


Almost to the point where the ALP had Steven Bradbury as their campaign advisor.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

Tony just gave a press conference live. No mention of boats, budget emergency, axing the tax, coal...nothing

I think he is a bit rattled


----------



## manticle (14/9/15)

Good gubment starts today?


----------



## Vini2ton (14/9/15)

Hey Stu, was that a modern award? I know in my industry ( for what it's worth, with all the fn scabs that exist nowadays) modern awards occured.


----------



## goomboogo (14/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Tony just gave a press conference live. No mention of boats, budget emergency, axing the tax, coal...nothing
> 
> I think he is a bit rattled


He did mention that his government had stopped the boats and improved the budget. Seriously.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

Vini2ton said:


> Hey Stu, was that a modern award? I know in my industry ( for what it's worth, with all the fn scabs that exist nowadays) modern awards occured.


Its the current one according to Fair Work Australia


----------



## Feldon (14/9/15)

Should get Jeremy Corbyn to emigrate from the UK.


----------



## Feldon (14/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Its the current one according to Fair Work Australia


As an ex loco driver I'm surprised the money is so low for such responsible work. Whether its on the 'Sparks' (suburban trains) or VLine (goods and country passenger trains) its very skilled work as well as being stressful. I'm the only one from my time on Victorian Railways that I know who hasn't been involved in a fatality.


----------



## manticle (14/9/15)

I offer this link as a counter to the hs claim of 140k for <4 hour days.

I have read only and have not checked out the veracity so it is offered with a grain of salt to those interested enough to read further. It does offer some checkable sources above and beyond 'leaked internal documents which we have seen'.

https://mtmmemes.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/its-not-just-a-pay-dispute/


----------



## Bribie G (14/9/15)




----------



## MHB (14/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> He did mention that his government had stopped the boats and improved the budget. Seriously.


Yer but he still didn't answer any questions


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

He never does


----------



## Droopy Brew (14/9/15)

Ding dong the **** is dead..

Well here's hoping.

Have been a Labor supporter most my life but voted the minor parties the past 2 elections because the majors have served up utter spastics. Shorten, I suspect, would be another one alas untried.

If Turnbull gets in LNP will get my vote for the first time in my life. I may rue saying this but I think he is a decent bloke and pollie.


----------



## Tropico (14/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Penny. Cause we need more lesbians as leaders of the world


No, Penny has far too much integrity and could never sink low enough to be PM.

Edit: Although she does cover every base possible.


----------



## Bribie G (14/9/15)

Main problem with Toned Abbs, bless him, is that he has lost his authentic self along the way and doesn't really know who he is any more.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

Tropico said:


> No, Penny has far too much integrity and could never sink low enough to be PM


Shame, cause she is really good and very intelligent. She wont take shit from anyone. She is more likely to say " **** you" and move on


----------



## Tropico (14/9/15)

Bribie G said:


> Main problem with Toned Abbs, bless him, is that he has lost his authentic self along the way and doesn't really know who he is any more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tony "Johnny cab" Abbott no, maybe he could "Heli-taxi" Malcolm around


----------



## goomboogo (14/9/15)

#putyouronionsout


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)




----------



## Lemon (14/9/15)

Not that I want to be accused of trolling, or further adding fuel to the train drivers wage fire.
Stu quoted what we can believe to be the current award.
Metro and the drivers are, one would assume, negotiating a new enterprise agreement, which is no doubt more rewarding than the safety net.
Well negotiating might be too strong a word.

A couple of other points,
Only from what I have read above,
The current offer, of 3% followed by 3 lots of 4% adds up to more than 17% due to the benefits of compounding. I.e the first increment is increased by the next , and so on.

Secondly, unfortunately in my experience, substantial industrial action almost always results in an apparently lesser outcome than that offered at the outset.

My 2 c


----------



## kevo (14/9/15)

And Tony...


----------



## SBOB (14/9/15)

time for the horse to have a new jockey


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

And Tony has left the building.

We have a winner and it aint Tony


----------



## Liam_snorkel (14/9/15)

Ahhhhahahahahahahagaha
Tony is going to miss out on the ex-PM pension by 4 days


http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/0708/praa
"Prime Minister After 2 years continuously or 3 years intermittently in office as Prime Minister (either before or after this Act) upon retiring from the Parliament and reaching 45 years of age 1200 per annum. Widow 750 per annum. In the cases of both the Prime Minister and the widow of a Prime Minister the pension to be in addition to that otherwise payable under the Parliamentary Retiring Allowances Act 1948 but without any additional contribution by the Prime Minister. [recommendation accepted]"


----------



## Tropico (14/9/15)

Goodbye Joe, goodbye Christopher


----------



## Bribie G (14/9/15)

ding dong the kernt is gone and taken his poodle with him, not to mention the fat sweaty cigar puffing kernt as well.

yee hah

I note that WE&L has gone to ground.

(hope the bro is ok, I should add)


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

Bribie G said:


> I note that WE&L has gone to ground.
> 
> (hope the bro is ok, I should add)


I shall send him an onion


----------



## Bribie G (14/9/15)

Just revealed that Maggott has missed out_ by four days_ on getting the ex Prime Minister's pension for the rest of his life.


hahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

So sweet. 4 days....bahahahahahahahahhhhahahahaaahahahahaahaaahahaahahahhhhahhhhaahahaahaahhahahahhahahahahahahahahha


----------



## Tropico (14/9/15)

It's all Bronwyn's fault, Bronwyn and that frickin helicopter.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)

New topic " Goodbye Tony" :beerbang:


----------



## technobabble66 (14/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Ahhhhahahahahahahagaha
> Tony is going to miss out on the ex-PM pension by 4 days
> 
> 
> ...


So approximately 1 second into his leadership & Malcolm's already saved us a fortune!

Hallelujah!!!
Hosanna in the highest!!
Blah blah blah
Thank. Fkn. God!!!

At last we might have someone to vote for. Hopefully the far right let him do the job and don't hamstring him. 

Ps: apologies to manticle for excessive use of exclamation marks, but I'm hoping you'll let it slide this time.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/15)




----------



## CoopsOz (14/9/15)

Turnbull is a slimy kernt. Anything he says cannot be taken at face value. He is continually posturing to further his own ambitions. The country is in real strife.


----------



## MHB (14/9/15)

CoopsOz said:


> Turnbull is a slimy kernt. Anything he says cannot be taken at face value. He is continually posturing to further his own ambitions. The country is in real strife.


He is a politician so perhaps you are stating the obvious...
Mind you I don't have anything nice to say about Tony either

How does it go
"Polly from the Latin for many, tick small mindless bloodsucking parasite"
M


----------



## Tropico (14/9/15)

MHB said:


> How does it go
> "Polly from the Latin for many, tick small mindless bloodsucking parasite"
> M


They call it "professional politician". Frick the country, they are in it for themselves.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (15/9/15)

Abbott was a career politician. 
Turnbull - barrister, merchant banker, politician. 
Same rule-for-the-rich party though, and LNP supporters should be stoked because he will be more effective at implementing hardline free market policies. 

(Hopeful) positives:
- Not a monarchist
- science to be taken seriously
- marriage equality
- no more slogans


----------



## manticle (15/9/15)

Exactly. Ex lawyer, investment banker, jounalist.
Worth over 120 mill, not exactly a man of the people.
I reserve judgement though - he might be really, really, really, really good.


----------



## JDW81 (15/9/15)

SBOB said:


> time for the horse to have a new jockey


I think the horse has been flogged to death.


----------



## Dave70 (15/9/15)

manticle said:


> Exactly. *Ex lawyer, investment banker, jounalist.
> Worth over 120 mill, not exactly a man of the people.*
> I reserve judgement though - he might be really, really, really, really good.


Dont forget venture capitalist. 
**** a man of the people. Thats blokes a dickhead. 
I'll take a hardworking champion of the free market and academic who knows how to make a quid any day. 
Long may he reign. 

And he will. 
If for no other reason he bares little resemblance to a character from a film adaptation of a fantasy or or Phillip K Dick novel.


----------



## Zorco (15/9/15)

He didn't start with that wealth....he built it. A capability useful in his roll.


----------



## Spohaw (15/9/15)

Thought his dad did that ?? And then he married into money ??

Should look it up I suppose


----------



## manticle (15/9/15)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> A capability useful in his roll.


I prefer ham in mine.
Or Spanish jamon if I'm feeling a little fancy.


----------



## Spohaw (15/9/15)

Spanish jamon sounds a bit too fancy , your not part of the goats cheese set are you manticle ?


----------



## SBOB (15/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> I think the horse has been flogged to death.


Oh, the horse is still headed to the glue factory.. Just a new jockey


----------



## seamad (15/9/15)

pretty hard to beat a jamon and gosts cheese on sourdough, with a nice saison, unless you're part of the 4n20 (genital) meat pie and VB set


----------



## Spohaw (15/9/15)

Meat pie and IPA set here 

Genital pies mmm mmm , would go down well with a stag semen stout


----------



## seamad (15/9/15)

“There’s only one way to serve semen stout and that’s handpulling it,”

I had to google the stag semen beer, maybe that's the allblacks secret


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> From Fair Work Australia
> 
> Minimum wage for a Metro driver is about $34K pa. Long way from $104K pa
> 
> ...


Thats the 2001 MINIMUM rates with amendments


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/9/15)

Bribie G said:


> ding dong the kernt is gone and taken his poodle with him, not to mention the fat sweaty cigar puffing kernt as well.
> 
> yee hah
> 
> ...


WEAL went to Japan with his wife and kids yesterday, I am looking after his Staffy, probably doesn't even know about the spill yet.


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/9/15)

manticle said:


> I offer this link as a counter to the hs claim of 140k for <4 hour days.
> 
> I have read only and have not checked out the veracity so it is offered with a grain of salt to those interested enough to read further. It does offer some checkable sources above and beyond 'leaked internal documents which we have seen'.
> 
> https://mtmmemes.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/its-not-just-a-pay-dispute/


Well what a let down, not checking your sources,of course its union affiliated, and anything that starts off, Without prejudice is guaranteed to be bullshit.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (15/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Thats the 2001 MINIMUM rates with amendments


Has anyone actually asked an actual train driver ?


----------



## manticle (15/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Well what a let down, not checking your sources,of course its union affiliated



I offered a link with checkable sources AND a caveat rather than a simple link as if it were god's own truth. I'm more than happy for anything within to be refuted with facts since I didnt write it. The quoted Herald Sun article (which I did actually read) used ''leaked documents which we have seen' (ie - not checkable) as its reference (if I remember correctly - its sole reference).

Even if Stu's sources are 2001 minimum wage, even if my article is union driven, even if the earth is really banana shaped, do you really actually believe 140k is an average wage for 3 and a half hours daily work driving trains. Does that make sense to you?




> and anything that starts off, Without prejudice is guaranteed to be bullshit.


I'm not quite sure what you mean. What starts off without prejudice?


----------



## warra48 (15/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> From Fair Work Australia
> 
> Minimum wage for a Metro driver is about $34K pa. Long way from $104K pa
> 
> ...


*14.1 Wage rates*
*14.1.1* Employees will be paid the following minimum rates of pay:

*Classification*
*Minimum Award Rate per week*​ 
$​ 
L1 Locomotive Driver (Trainee New Start)
$371.80​L2 Locomotive Driver (Trainee qualified stage 2)
$410.00​L3 Locomotive Driver (Trainee 12 Months)
$470.50​L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line)*
$568.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Shunting (V/Line)
$615.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Operation (V/Line)
$662.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Single Person Operation (Metropolitan)
$662.30​
*14.1.2* The L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line) is the key classification for this award. The relativity to the _Railways Metal Trades Grades Award_ [AW817167] C10 classification is 125.2%.





Ducatiboy stu said:


> From Fair Work Australia
> 
> Minimum wage for a Metro driver is about $34K pa. Long way from $104K pa
> 
> ...


*14.1 Wage rates*
*14.1.1* Employees will be paid the following minimum rates of pay:

*Classification*
*Minimum Award Rate per week*​ 
$​ 
L1 Locomotive Driver (Trainee New Start)
$371.80​L2 Locomotive Driver (Trainee qualified stage 2)
$410.00​L3 Locomotive Driver (Trainee 12 Months)
$470.50​L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line)*
$568.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Shunting (V/Line)
$615.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Driver Only Operation (V/Line)
$662.30​L5 Locomotive Driver Single Person Operation (Metropolitan)
$662.30​
*14.1.2* The L5 Locomotive Driver (V/Line) is the key classification for this award. The relativity to the _Railways Metal Trades Grades Award_ [AW817167] C10 classification is 125.2%.



Those figures were inserted into the award on 14 April 2003.
If you are going to argue from a position of authority, at least use the current indexed figures, not those from 12½ years ago.


----------



## goomboogo (15/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Ahhhhahahahahahahagaha
> Tony is going to miss out on the ex-PM pension by 4 days
> 
> 
> ...


He'll still do ok. Even falling short of the ex-PM pension, he is eligible to receive more than $300 000 per year upon leaving parliament. He could choose to take $1.5 million as a lump sum and then receive the rest as a $150 000 a year pension. Although not guaranteed, it is likely he'll receive another $300 000 per year to maintain an office and cover travel costs.

If Tony Abbott decides to leave parliament he may choose to use the proceeds of the Australian public's largesse to finally pay off his mortgage.


----------



## madpierre06 (15/9/15)

Good to see the age of entitlement was done away with.


----------



## seamad (15/9/15)

Heard you can now have face to face lunches with joe now for a fiver, bit cheaper than those 10 grand ones .


----------



## goomboogo (15/9/15)

seamad said:


> Heard you can now have face to face lunches with joe now for a fiver, bit cheaper than those 10 grand ones .


But you have shout lunch as well. The bill could still get to 10 grand.


----------



## seamad (15/9/15)

do you reckon leek soup would be on the menu ?


----------



## wombil (15/9/15)

i think Malcolm lacks the skills to drive a train but tony was way off the rails.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (15/9/15)

warra48 said:


> Those figures were inserted into the award on 14 April 2003.
> If you are going to argue from a position of authority, at least use the current indexed figures, not those from 12½ years ago.


I just used what was on Fair Work Australia web site

If that is what is currently shwon, maybe you should take it up with them

I am not the first person on here to use the " But its on Fair Work Australia's web site "

Can you provide the current actuall pay rates ?


----------



## manticle (15/9/15)

For the record I visited fwa website and used their pay calculator.
Tried it a couple of times with the same result, no guarantee I haven't made an error. The below is minimum award, base salary, no extras for level 6 train driver, 19+ years old.

$26 per hour, weekly wage $933.

Lot of weeks to get to 140k. More than 140 in fact.

Maths = 140k =~2.5+ years for average full time, qualified train driver. If they do 1.5+ years equivalent overtime in 12 months then good ******* luck to them. They deserve every cent.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

But The Herald Sun said they earn $140k

Your maths are shit


----------



## manticle (16/9/15)

I'm a bit dumb, it's true.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

You need to start reading Newscorp newspapers and get edumacated


----------



## manticle (16/9/15)

I do read them.
I just don't understand them.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

Are you actually supposed to read them....


All they do is block my toilet


----------



## Mardoo (16/9/15)

They block my mental toilet.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/sep/15/the-glow-was-coming-from-malcolm-the-age-of-turnbull-had-dawned


----------



## technobabble66 (16/9/15)

First Dog = Gold!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

LOL....some guy & a betong :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

Let the disappointment begin.
- no free vote for marriage equality
- no ETS
- nationals in charge of water

http://junkee.com/malcolm-turnbull-backflips-on-marriage-equality-confirms-he-wont-allow-a-free-vote-in-parliament/65563


----------



## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

He's certainly proved to be no different at the core...still, this country has more to worry about than issues of marriage ewquality, as significant as they may appear or be to some. We're on the way down the hole, and the less well off are struggling to breathe through the dust kicked up by our wealthy.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

'we have better things to do' is no excuse. As pointed out in the article it could be done in half an hour of parliamentary time. Instead he's going with a $160million non-binding national vote after the next election.


----------



## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

A valid point mate, and I think we both know that where you and I probably stand on this are more than likely at opposite ends of the spectrum :beer:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

Think of the poor rich folk and all that tax they dont pay


----------



## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

Didn't Kerry once infamously have a taxable income of around 26 or 29K?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> A valid point mate, and I think we both know that where you and I probably stand on this are more than likely at opposite ends of the spectrum :beer:


you may be one of the 25% who oppose it :icon_cheers: 
http://www.afr.com/news/politics/fairfaxipsos-poll-gay-marriage-support-at-record-20150614-ghnjhi


----------



## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> you may be one of the 25% who oppose it :icon_cheers:
> http://www.afr.com/news/politics/fairfaxipsos-poll-gay-marriage-support-at-record-20150614-ghnjhi


There's a greater than 25% chance of that B) But please don't confuse hating the game for hating the player....just for the record. :beer:


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

all good, we're entitled to hold opinions on things mate.


----------



## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

Wouldn't have it any other way mate, everybody else has the right to be wrong


----------



## malt and barley blues (16/9/15)

manticle said:


> I offered a link with checkable sources AND a caveat rather than a simple link as if it were god's own truth. I'm more than happy for anything within to be refuted with facts since I didnt write it. The quoted Herald Sun article (which I did actually read) used ''leaked documents which we have seen' (ie - not checkable) as its reference (if I remember correctly - its sole reference).
> 
> Even if Stu's sources are 2001 minimum wage, even if my article is union driven, even if the earth is really banana shaped, do you really actually believe 140k is an average wage for 3 and a half hours daily work driving trains. Does that make sense to you?
> 
> ...


The link that you provided (obviously union based) in the, 'About Us' section has the, 'Without Prejudice' clause, meaning is -(1) When used in a document or letter, _without prejudice_ means that what follows (a) cannot be used as evidence in a court case, 
Which means you can print all the lies you like without a worry of facing court.

Yes I do believe that an average train drivers pay will be in that region of $140,000, that could be in the upper end of the scale but definitely over the $100,000 I have a friend who is a crane driver on the high rise buildings in the city and he earns well more than the $140,000 per year.

Trying to work out their pay based on the MINIMUM wage would be impossible without knowing the actual rates, shift loading overtime rates and how they are implemented, then there is superannuation on top of that.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

not sure how relevant it is, but here is what Tram drivers get, on average:
http://yarratrams.com.au/about-us/careers/driven-women/a-career-loaded-with-benefits/


----------



## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

They're looking for driven women??? A coupla obvious puns, plus the 'sticks out a mile' discrimination factor as well.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/15)

OK that was from their "driven women" campaign. Here's the general page.
"Including allowances and penalties listed above, tram drivers earn an average of between $65,000 and $75,000 a year once they are fully qualified."

http://yarratrams.com.au/about-us/careers/recruitment-at-yarra-trams/driver-customer-service-employee/


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## madpierre06 (16/9/15)

That's a reasonable earn once you get to your allowances, etc and fully qualified.


----------



## Dave70 (16/9/15)

All this back flipping must be disheartening for ALP supporters who somehow got the idea that Liberal MPs had elected a labor prime minister.


----------



## malt and barley blues (16/9/15)

Train driver earnings.

http://joboutlook.gov.au/occupation.aspx?search=alpha&tab=stats&cluster=&code=7313&graph=EA


----------



## technobabble66 (16/9/15)

So about $75k per year. Working ~38 hrs per week. Not really the $140k p.a. for, what was claimed?, 20hrs per week?
Oh, hang on. I think it's from 2013 figures though, so maybe pay rates have gone up since then?

Where was that $140k p.a. figure taken from?? I hope everyone here takes anything that source reports from now on with a grain of salt...

...(quickly googles for a bit)...

Oh yeah... good ol' Herald Sun:
"Internal Metro documents, seen by the _Herald Sun,_ show that an average driver, who with penalties and allowances is paid $140,000, drives 124km in 3.58 hours and is able to go home, but is still paid for an eight-hour shift."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/melbournes-commuters-stalled-by-unions-wrangle-over-train-driver-perks/story-fnpp4dl6-1227511718311

Such an appallingly poor standard of reporting.
No wonder our political debate has been plumbing new depths each year and we've had Tony & Bill as party leaders.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/15)

Dont forget its not just 9-5. so penalties will always come into it


----------



## manticle (16/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Train driver earnings.
> 
> http://joboutlook.gov.au/occupation.aspx?search=alpha&tab=stats&cluster=&code=7313&graph=EA


So your own link shows that 140k is a gross over estimation and far, far from being average (not sure what your idea of the upper end of average means, nor why crane drivers are relevant -is it because train and crane rhyme?) it's actually really unlikely.

Funnily enough that's exactly what I have been trying to say. Train drivers, on average, DO NOT earn 140k per year and therefore the article in the HS which claimed that to be the case, is pure snot.

Here is an article that goes even further. Not only does it presume aussies are lazy, stubborn, obtuse pricks as a matter of national identity, its ONLY quoted source for material is the Herald Sun. Not even some secret documents it claims to have seen but still repeating the same, unsubstantiated goo disguised as reporting.
Add to that the numerous editing, spelling and grammatical errors (what journalist can't spell 'allegedly' correctly?) and you really are scraping the bottom of the jounalistic barrel. I'd be embarassed to put my name to something this badly written or researched.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3221757/Melbourne-train-strike-causes-thousands-commuters-respond-taking-day-off.html.

Case rested.


----------



## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

The assimilation between a crane driver and a train driver is they are both semi skilled jobs, and both on high wages for the skill level, the wage link I posted was 2 years old and an ABS one at that, according to Jim Chrystomou the Assistant Secretary of the RBTU the base wage of the train driver is $90,000, so with overtime, and the inclusion of their super, could very easily go over the $100,000. 
And the overtime is one of the things the unions (train drivers) are wanting to preserve in their conditions, Metro want to employ more drivers to make up for the shortage, I thought the union movement was about one for all and all for one, obviously not.
The figure of $140,000 is on the upper end of the scale of a wage, but I doubt the figure was just plucked out of the air, their will be some earning that I am sure.


----------



## Airgead (17/9/15)

Crane drivers semi skilled? Really? Ever watched one of those guys flying in something big with poor visibility about an inch clearance on each side and high winds? That's some real skill there.

Skilled doesn't mean "works with a computer" or "has a degree" you know...


----------



## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

Yes really, a crane driver is a semi skilled occupation which starts off with a 2 week course, and if you new anything about construction sites in high winds the cranes gib has to face the direction of the wind and the hook block wound to the top, they do not carry out lifts in high winds.


----------



## real_beer (17/9/15)

I think its time unions headed over and set up camp in Mumbai the Gateway to India, and probably India in general. It's ******* disgraceful for a country trying to pass itself off as as an emerging first world nation to allow a caste of people to be used like this. If someone wants a good look at true racism in action have a look at this link. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34105691 This is the home of Bollywood! :angry2:


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## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

That's some where, where a union would be useful.


----------



## manticle (17/9/15)

http://www.occupationalinfo.org/91/910683014.html

SVP 5 and above is considered skilled.


----------



## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

How much can I expect to earn?




Full-time employed Train Driver earn an average of $1645 per week. The average annual salary for this job is $85540 excluding super. Learn more about salaries for this job​.









Personal requirements




ability to work within a team environment
good communication skills
able to solve mechanical and technical problems
good problem-solving and decision-making skills
good memory for learning safety procedures and regulations.
This job also involves:
Driving
Good vision for detail
Sitting for long periods
This occupation offers jobs at the following skill levels:
Semi-skilled Jobs
Para Professional Jobs



- See more at: http://myfuture.edu.au/explore-careers/browse-occupations/details?Anzsco=731311C#Collapse

Semi skilled in Australia.


----------



## manticle (17/9/15)

I stand corrected.


----------



## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

Looks like Bill has thrown the towel in on ChAFTA, $12,000,000 of CMFEU's money down the gurgler. :lol:


----------



## Feldon (17/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> The assimilation between a crane driver and a train driver is they are both semi skilled jobs, [snip]


Re. train driving, you speaking from experience or just guessing?


----------



## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

See post 1620


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## Feldon (17/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> See post 1620


That's a site for school kids.


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## Dave70 (17/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> How much can I expect to earn?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So disappointed. All those years at TAFE learning a skill when I could have been earning better dough, sitting for long periods and avoiding human feces.. 




What's it like to be a Plumber?



Plumbers lay out, install, test and maintain pipes, fixtures, metal roofing, fittings, gas meters and regulators.






Is this occupation in demand?



Australian JobOutlook for Plumber








How much can I expect to earn?




Full-time employed Plumber earn an average of *$1178* per week. The average annual salary for this job is $61256 excluding super. Learn more about salaries for this job​.









Personal requirements




enjoy practical work
good hand-eye coordination
able to work independently
able to work at heights and in various weather conditions
able to cope with the physical demands of the job
good interpersonal skills
good mobility.
This job also involves:
Full use of hands/fingers
Good vision for detail
Mainly outdoor work
Physical effort
Reading or writing
This occupation offers jobs at the following skill levels:
Skilled Trade Jobs



- See more at: http://myfuture.edu.au/explore-careers/browse-occupations/details?anzsco=334111A#sthash.fc9VcHkZ.dpuf


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## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

Feldon said:


> That's a site for school kids.


That's the site that gives you the skill level.A semi-skilled worker has some training and skills, but not enough to do specialized work.

Skilled trades are jobs that are done with the hands such as construction, plumbing, and welding.


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## Feldon (17/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> That's the site that gives you the skill level.A semi-skilled worker has some training and skills, but not enough to do specialized work.
> 
> Skilled trades are jobs that are done with the hands such as construction, plumbing, and welding.


Its a site designed to give career advice to school kids. And where do you think the site gets its info from? - actual train drivers or their office-bound employers who want to pay them less.

Edit: and regards 'specialized work' (the American spelling is yours, not mine) try bringing a 4,000+ ton wheatie down from the Mallee with only 'some training and skills'.


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## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

I think the government would define what is a skilled trade and what is not.

http://www.visabureau.com/australia/anzsco/jobs/train-driver-job-australia.aspx

http://www.visabureau.com/australia/anzsco/jobs/crane-hoist-or-lift-operator-job-australia.aspx


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## Feldon (17/9/15)

Train driving is not a trade.


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## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

No, and its not skilled either


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## luggy (17/9/15)

Skill 

noun 
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well


2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: 


3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience

4. Obsolete. understanding; discernment. 


5. Obsolete. reason; cause. 

just sayin


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## Feldon (17/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> No, and its not skilled either


OK, I'll repeat my first question: "you speaking from experience or just guessing?"


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## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

Feldon said:


> Re. train driving, you speaking from experience or just guessing?


As I said the government puts the handle on it, SEMI SKILLED.


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## warra48 (17/9/15)

I'm loving this thread.

We've gone from Bronny, who apparently couldn't hack it well enough to charm her way through university, to discussing what's skilled or not.
Bronny was skilled alright, she knew how to order choppers and get into the taxpayer for unbelievable amounts of apparently unjustified expenses.

I never learned a trade, as I always did a job which required a suit and a tie, but 3 tertiary degrees and a daily battle with the legal system makes me justify myself as a skilled professional. 

The reason I didn't ever do a trade is that I sustained a major spinal injury as a teenager which required surgery, and was told never to do heavy or physically demanding work.

Keep it up fellas, Let's see if we can make it to 100 pages on a subject about a loser.


----------



## madpierre06 (17/9/15)

warra48 said:


> I'm loving this thread.
> 
> We've gone from Bronny, who apparently couldn't hack it well enough to charm her way through university, to discussing what's skilled or not.
> Bronny was skilled alright, she knew how to order choppers and get into the taxpayer for unbelievable amounts of apparently unjustified expenses.
> ...


Did you say charm???


----------



## manticle (17/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> As I said the government puts the handle on it, SEMI SKILLED.


You are correct. Operating a rail engine is described by government to be a semi-skilled occupation in australia (not unskilled as suggested earlier by burt de ernie).
As far as I can work out, the AU gov distinctions are mostly for defining skill levels in order to set quotas for accepting migrants.

All sources I've found suggest train drivers are on 80- 90k for a full time wage once properly trained. To add an extra 40-50 grand, suggest that's average and suggest it is easily achievable working 4 hour days is designed to make the hs reading public entirely unsympathetic and is bad journalism.

Maybe you 'can' do it (had no examples offered so far) but average or likely or common? That was the (more than implied) gist of the article. You want overtime, you'll need to get over 4 hours a day, 200km or not. I bet (and happy to accept I'm wrong if proven) that a certain amount of weekend, early morning and late night work is part and parcel of the contract and sees no extras. Certainly hospitality has been that way since I've been 20.


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## malt and barley blues (17/9/15)

Jim Chrystostomou, assistant secretary of the union’s locomotive division, said,the base rate is $90,000, not $140,000, a fair amount of OT would have to be worked to get to that figure.

A transport industry source said drivers often ran businesses on the side, had multiple properties and expensive cars supported by the high wages and low hours the job provided.


----------



## goomboogo (17/9/15)

We will all make up our own minds whether a particular job is skilled or otherwise. If I study and train for over ten years and practice as a GP, am I considered skilled? From my perspective, I consider an ice sculptor to be more skilled than a GP.


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## manticle (17/9/15)

Is that you saying that, a news sorce or what? Confusing post.
Some drivers work outside their regular job so they can buy mercedes is essentially what I got. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.


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## manticle (17/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> We will all make up our own minds whether a particular job is skilled or otherwise. If I study and train for over ten years and practice as a GP, am I considered skilled? From my perspective, I consider an ice sculptor to be more skilled than a GP.


GP would come under professional. M&BB is correct - there are applied definitions to occupations (generally related to immigration intake here).

It's not just a matter of opinion (although the description as 'unskilled' was exactly that. Uninformed opinion too. )


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> So disappointed. All those years at TAFE learning a skill when I could have been earning better dough, sitting for long periods and avoiding human feces..


Yep. All those years hauling cables in really ideal conditions like mud, hot roofs in summer, rain in winter, terminating cables late into the night, cuts, bruises, dealing with emergency outages, 24/7 on-call for years

Why the **** did I bother doing that when I could have just gone straight into management.


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

Yeah exactly, and then all you need to ever do is tick a box so your kpi's are met. Doesn't matter that you know nothing about the process of the business, long as the box is ticked, then the guy above you can tick his boxes and everyone gets a bonus!. Easy 


Only downside is having to work with lowly tradesman and semi skilled people.


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Only downside is having to work with lowly tradesman and semi skilled people.


Nothing wrong with being a tradesman or semi skilled, I came over here in 1977, working as a fitter machinist chased the big paying jobs and worked all the hours I could, I invested wisely (property) by 1992/3 my investments were making more money than I could make.

I have no doubt there would be train drivers knocking up $140,000 if they put the hours in, I mean that figure wouldn't have just been plucked out of thin air.

For a semi skilled occupation that is good money, and I can understand that they don't want any more at the trough, but not at the expense of fellow workers not earning as much, being denied a right to travel to work.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I have doubt there would be train drivers knocking up $140,000 if they put the hours in, I mean that figure would have just been plucked out of thin air.


----------



## wobbly (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Why the **** did I bother doing that when I could have just gone straight into management.


So enlighten us 

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

I wish I could, but I am just a lowly tradie..skilled ( in some eyes ) but just a tradie


----------



## Dave70 (18/9/15)

Personally, I envy mechanical engineers and biomolecular chemists. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI_hOP_K6MY


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Not forgetting the Marine Biologist. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u8KUgUqprw


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I wish I could, but I am just a lowly tradie..skilled ( in some eyes ) but just a tradie


So then, you would have earned more money than you would in management. Yes?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

What has money got to do with it.

Are you trying to be superior ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> So then, you would have earned more money than you would in management. Yes?


Actually, at one point I was earning more than my manager.


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> What has money got to do with it.
> 
> Are you trying to be superior ?


I am not your mother, money is the reason we go to work, remember.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

So money is everything is it, Mother Superior


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Certainly is my son, if you are going to have to go to work, get the best reward for your efforts as you can get.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

I would rather not be your son. I find that offensive


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## mje1980 (18/9/15)

10+ years ago no one gave a crap what anyone did for a living or scrutinised how much they earned for it or made a judgement on whether they were "worth" that much money, or if the job they did was technically skilled or semi skilled. These days for some reason lots of people want to point the finger at other people about whether they deserve to get paid for what they do. It's quite ridiculous and kind of sad IMHO.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

I know a lot of managers that dont deserve to be paid B)


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## mje1980 (18/9/15)

Yeah, but like any other profession/trade/semi skilled/skilled job, there are people in all those jobs/professions who don't deserve to be paid, and some who are worth way more. Just like people you meet in the street, most are great, but there are dickheads in every group.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

This is true, but some seem to think that unless your earning heaps, your worthless ( bad pun, but a pun all the same )


----------



## sponge (18/9/15)

More often than not I find the dickheads well out-number the good.


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

Yeah but you're an electrical engineer. There's something not quite right about electrical people. 


















At least that's what they told us during my fitters apprenticeship


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

sponge said:


> More often than not I find the managers well out-number the good.


----------



## sponge (18/9/15)

'Engineer' can be a very loose term these days..

I haven't been quite right for years and turned out fine.


----------



## wobbly (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Actually, at one point I was earning more than my manager.


As one honest politician who tried to stand up for Australian values and beliefs once said 

"Please Explain!!!!"


Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Yeah but you're an electrical engineer. There's something not quite right about electrical people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should have heard what they said about plumbers. Apparently it was a really shit trade ( sorry Dave, not directed at you or plumbers I have known )


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

wobbly said:


> As one honest politician who tried to stand up for Australian values and beliefs once said
> 
> "Please Explain!!!!"
> 
> ...


Hard work.


----------



## manticle (18/9/15)

Australian values? Mean spiritness, bigotry and stupidity are Australian values now are they?


----------



## seamad (18/9/15)

I suspect that malty blues and weal are ex-pat poms, who share a love for the Thatcherite days. Thatcher believed that there was no such thing as societies, just individuals, which explains the **** you I'm alright attitude. It also goes someway to explaining the belief that monetary worth is above all else.


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> 10+ years ago no one gave a crap what anyone did for a living or scrutinised how much they earned for it or made a judgement on whether they were "worth" that much money, or if the job they did was technically skilled or semi skilled. These days for some reason lots of people want to point the finger at other people about whether they deserve to get paid for what they do. It's quite ridiculous and kind of sad IMHO.


Today is different to the past, people in the sixties thought that jobs would be there forever, today we live in a time when nothing seems to last, what does the future hold for those working today, will they be working until they are seventy, will they have enough money to survive in their old age, what will a government pension be like, will they have enough in their super.

Money we need to provide for our family as best as we can, then we also need money for our old age, money is extremely important. As for being "worth", one has to make their own worth, make themselves invaluable to their employers, head down arse up, do your job efficiently and look after your money.


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

Don't forget it's the Internet, in a social situation face to face with a few fine brews, everyone would get on just fine. A lot easier to explain your views face to face than a keyboard.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Not sure about you, but my super is looking pretty ******* good at this point in time B)


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

seamad said:


> which explains the **** you I'm alright attitude. It also goes someway to explaining the belief that monetary worth is above all else.


Isn't that exactly what the train drivers are saying.


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

I think they may be a little annoyed that all and sundry feel free to judge whether they deserve their award rate


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

We should all put other jobs under the spotlight. 10 mins with a lawyer for instance, how much???!!!!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Isn't that exactly what the train drivers are saying.


What have you got against train drivers ?

Are you jealous ?


----------



## seamad (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Isn't that exactly what the train drivers are saying.


No it's not. You and weal keep trying to point out the strikes about money, it's not.
The RTBU is locked in an arm wrestle with Metro about who controls the working conditions of staff. Metro's offer of a 17 per cent pay rise over four years might be generous enough for the union to agree to, if it weren't for the big changes to working conditions Metro insists must go with it. The union has vowed it will not give up hard-won protections of its members' work-life balance. The two sides are as far apart as ever on this, even though talks have been going for five months. Further strike action has not been ruled out.


----------



## wobbly (18/9/15)

manticle said:


> Australian values? Mean spiritness, bigotry and stupidity are Australian values now are they?


Those values can be attributed to many in our society.

But at least she was prepared to express what a large percentage of the general population (silent majority) thinks/agrees with and not the one sided views that the are touted by the very vocal minority

As a country we are apathetic and don't feel strongly enough about the issues that are going to bite us in the backside in the not too distant future 

Both major parties were scared sh----ss that their hold on political power was seriously in question that they moved heaven and earth to discredit and shut the party down

Wobbly


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

Woah, this is about to go to 150 pages


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

151 once the train driver dispute is settled


----------



## pcmfisher (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Today is different to the past, *people in the sixties thought that jobs would be there forever*, today we live in a time when nothing seems to last, what does the future hold for those working today, will they be working until they are seventy, will they have enough money to survive in their old age, what will a government pension be like, will they have enough in their super.
> 
> Money we need to provide for our family as best as we can, then we also need money for our old age, money is extremely important. As for being "worth", one has to make their own worth, make themselves invaluable to their employers, head down arse up, do your job efficiently and look after your money.


Yes maybe, but you could also tell your boss to jam it in the morning and have another job in the afternoon.


----------



## pcmfisher (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Not sure about you, but my super is looking pretty ******* good at this point in time B)


As long as they don't change the rules on us as they have been know to and you don't happen to want it shortly after a financial crash where you could see it lose half its value overnight.

I know, the glass is half full....


----------



## mje1980 (18/9/15)

You get told when and how much to sip though, when it's your own milk.


----------



## manticle (18/9/15)

The old silent majority. Presumably if she had such major support, she'd have had a more successful political career.


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> What have you got against train drivers ?


I got a cinder in my eye in 1953.



seamad said:


> I suspect that malty blues and weal are ex-pat poms, who share a love for the Thatcherite days.


I am an expat pom, WEAL isn't, I came here in 1977, before Thatcher came to power and WEAL wouldn't be old enough to remember her.


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Yes maybe, but you could also tell your boss to jam it in the morning and have another job in the afternoon.


You could do in those days, if the company I was a subby too had no tradesman's work to give me, they used to put me on a job as a TA and still paid me tradies wages.

As I said things don't last, even China is finding that out, I was reading a lot of companies are pulling out of China and setting up in Vietnam because Chinese labour is getting to expensive.


----------



## GrumpyPaul (18/9/15)

I'm confused...just coming into this thread now

Did Bronwyn board a train - is that why we are saying goodbye?
or
Is she a train driver of questionable skill level working short hours whilst running a helicopter joy flight business on the side so as to maintain her Mercedes?
or
Is Bronwyn really just Margaret Thatcher incarnate, who people that aren't expat poms are really just to young to remember anyway.


----------



## madpierre06 (18/9/15)

The hair is eerily similar.


----------



## Camo6 (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> As I said things don't last, even China is finding that out, I was reading a lot of companies are pulling out of China and setting up in Vietnam because Chinese labour is getting to expensive.


That's a global trend for sure. Automotive manufacturers build their cars where the labour is cheap, until it's not, then move on to the next third world country. Ford did it with Mexico, South Africa, now Thailand. We're lucky to have produced cars here for as long as we have.


----------



## madpierre06 (18/9/15)

Down down, wages are down


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Wasn't luck Camo, it had a lot to do with how much money the governments put in to make it profitable to be here.


----------



## wobbly (18/9/15)

TWA members who refuel planes in Perth voting on strike action in the week leading up to AFL Grand Final because they are not being offered what they want.

Just like the Melbourne train drivers another Union bunch going to hold the public to ransom because of their perceived claims not being met

At the end of the day it wont adversely impact on me being a Rugby Union fan but you have to question where these sh--s get off.

Wobbly


----------



## seamad (18/9/15)

Wobblies Vs Fiji, only a couple of days to go


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Well it is a skilled job Wobbly, you have to know which hole to stick the hose in, they do only get $70,000 a year for knowing that information. Don't know why they don't do what the garages do and make it self service.


----------



## wobbly (18/9/15)

seamad said:


> Wobblies Vs Fiji, only a couple of days to go



Yep and I'm a "Wannaby" - Bring on the 23rd and an end to all this train driver, union, pay rate etc sh-t 

Wobbly


----------



## Lemon (18/9/15)

I think the next stage in the metro/RTBU negotiation is going to be very interesting. If they are diametrically opposed as they appear, further industrial action is quite likely.
Will the drivers go out on a long term stoppage?
Will metro try a "Patrick's" and bring in strike breakers? It would be interesting to read the fine print in their contract with the vic govt on that point.
In the event of major action, will the govt enforce the essential services provisions and force them back to work?

Ultimately, how far back from each other's ambit claims will the compromise be?


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

Well they have both agreed to a mediator so hopefully common sense will prevail, still think management should be allowed to manage, and run their business as efficiently as is possible.


----------



## seamad (18/9/15)

wobbly said:


> Yep and I'm a "Wannaby" - Bring on the 23rd and an end to all this train driver, union, pay rate etc sh-t
> 
> Wobbly


looking forward to a bit of scrumaging. The wallabies/all blacks/springboks front row pack a bit higher and have a slight incline since the super rugby scrum changes, the northerners are old fashioned low and level, interesting to see how it pans out


----------



## goomboogo (18/9/15)

wobbly said:


> As one honest politician who tried to stand up for Australian values and beliefs once said
> 
> "Please Explain!!!!"
> 
> ...


It wasn't just xenophobia. It didn't matter what topic was being discussed, she needed it explained.


----------



## wobbly (18/9/15)

seamad said:


> looking forward to a bit of scrumaging. The wallabies/all blacks/springboks front row pack a bit higher and have a slight incline since the super rugby scrum changes, the northerners are old fashioned low and level, interesting to see how it pans out


Good to see some intellectual topic discussion for once

Wobbly


----------



## Lemon (18/9/15)

@mb&b,
I agree management should be able to manage. 

Rostering arrangements and alternatives or variations are commonly included in agreements. If you want to make a significant change you have to bargain. Fair enough.

Metro don't have to make a new agreement, changes to legislation means EBAs are not required to be renewed. The company can elect to make pay increases without a new agreement.
But, they want something for their proposed increase. So they need to bargain.

Withdrawing labour is a legitimate , and possibly the only, bargaining measure employees have.

Those efficiency improvements are again part of agreements, that the company have previously entered into. I.e. Reduction in numbers, major change, automation, etc. generally agreed to without much foresight for these type of game changing issues in the future.


----------



## manticle (18/9/15)

wobbly said:


> Those values can be attributed to many in our society.
> 
> But at least she was prepared to express what a large percentage of the general population (silent majority) thinks/agrees with and not the one sided views that the are touted by the very vocal minority
> 
> ...


You know she was originally a member of one of those parties don't you?

I find it hilarious, given how badly one nation fared in recent elections, that anyone actually believes they were ever the remotest threat to the major parties.

They're a fringe party, expressing the perspective of a couple of disgruntled rednecks and one single mum who once ate some bad african takeaway.
Hardly the silent majority (much closer to a vocal minority actually) but if those who sympathise with them want to stay silent, I'm all for it.


----------



## manticle (18/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I have no doubt there would be train drivers knocking up $140,000 if they put the hours in, I mean that figure wouldn't have just been plucked out of thin air.


Of course it's not pulled from the air. HS are smart enough to avoid libel. What they've done is conflate an absolute possible extreme (some 58year old workaholic getting cpi and performance pay and OT by working every possible weekend, public holiday, early morning, whatever) with the average 80 -90 k per year, (some unsociable hours included) then married that with the opposite potential extreme (driver does 200 km in under 4 hours, still gets paid because they're on a full time wage and that's what happens with full time) then made everyone who reads their shitty paper presume EVERY train driver gets paid a shit ton for doing **** all and they're still trying to get more. Smart propaganda, shit journalism.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

There is a lot in that post that I agree with

Maybe someone can put forth what they think train drivers should actually be paid and what they actually have to do for it

Might make a change from the " Train Drivers are over paid but I dont know why "


----------



## malt and barley blues (18/9/15)

CFMEU fined $9,000,000 over the Boral black ban, $12,000,000 wasted on the ChAFTA advertising campaign, there isn't going to be much left in the biccy tin for the CFMEU executives lucrative lifestyles they like to lead.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/9/15)

Got nothing to do with train drivers,........ those horribly overpaid train drivers


----------



## butisitart (18/9/15)

you could hire 10 year old kids to drive trains for free. think about it....
modern trains are robotically controlled, fail-safe state of the art things what you can't stuff up.
10 year old kids love the idea of driving trains.
can't go wrong.
you can get around child labour laws by calling it fun.


----------



## mje1980 (19/9/15)

A 5 year old has made better decisions with more common sense than one of our managers, I should take my kids to work.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Got nothing to do with train drivers,........ those horribly overpaid train drivers


I don't think anyone minds what the train drivers earn. $90,000 as the base rate is fair enough, as is the 17% a fair and generous offer, NEGOTIATION, means just that, each side has to give something, Metro is providing the folding, and the train drivers through their union must make concessions. Expecting to receive a pay rise just as a matter of course isn't on, and neither is calling a strike while negotiations are still in progress.

And when that strikes interferes with other peoples livelihood, and their right to earn money, then they just show them selves for what they are, they don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> And when that strikes interferes with other peoples livelihood, and their right to earn money, then they just show them selves for what they are, they don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.


Interesting, isn't that how a number of folks advocate for the right of business to do...run your business as you see fit, and the workers can go f***'emselves?


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I don't think anyone minds what the train drivers earn. $90,000 as the base rate is fair enough, as is the 17% a fair and generous offer, NEGOTIATION, means just that, each side has to give something, Metro is providing the folding, and the train drivers through their union must make concessions. Expecting to receive a pay rise just as a matter of course isn't on, and neither is calling a strike while negotiations are still in progress.
> 
> And when that strikes interferes with other peoples livelihood, and their right to earn money, then they just show them selves for what they are, they don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.


How many times? The strike is not over pay.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> How many times? The strike is not over pay.


That is exactly what I just said, Metro has made a fair offer, but the train drivers don't want to make any concessions and in return want 18% . You don't get money for nothing which is what the train drivers want.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

How is that exactly what you just said?


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> How is that exactly what you just said?


 NEGOTIATION, means just that, each side has to give something, Metro is providing the folding, and the train drivers through their union must make concessions. Expecting to receive a pay rise just as a matter of course isn't on,


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

But they're not expecting to receive a pay rise as a matter of course. They are rejecting the proposed EBA.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> That is exactly what I just said, Metro has made a fair offer, but the train drivers don't want to make any concessions and in return want 18% . You don't get money for nothing which is what the train drivers want.


No. YOU think Metro made a fair offer. The workers do not see it is as a fair offer



malt & barley blues said:


> I don't think anyone minds what the train drivers earn. $90,000 as the base rate is fair enough,


So its dropped from $140k to $90k now. If we keep going you might get to the point towhere there they are actually paid


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No. YOU think Metro made a fair offer. The workers do not see it is as a fair offer
> 
> 
> So its dropped from $140k to $90k now. If we keep going you might get to the point towhere there they are actually paid


Your fist statement is actually confirming that the train drivers strike is over money Metro offers 17% they want 18%.

Your second statement, anyone with half a brain would have known the $140,000 was plucked from the top end of the scale and given to the Herald Sun, $90,000 is what the union say is the base rate, so what is your point.


----------



## mje1980 (19/9/15)

Ever thought about working in politics?


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> But they're not expecting to receive a pay rise as a matter of course. They are rejecting the proposed EBA.


That is why it is called an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement it has to be negotiated, not just ask for 18% and expect to get it, concessions have to be made.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Your fist statement is actually confirming that the train drivers strike is over money Metro offers 17% they want 18%.
> 
> *No, its more about conditions*
> 
> Your second statement, anyone with half a brain would have known the $140,000 was plucked from the top end of the scale and given to the Herald Sun, $90,000 is what the union say is the base rate, so what is your point.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Ever thought about working in politics?


Oh dear god, please no


----------



## seamad (19/9/15)

Those pommy bastards got a bonus point in the last minute against Fiji. Fiji played pretty well in the first half, bit nervy, hopefully the wallabies can pull off a bonus point win too.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Ever thought about working in politics?


I think that politics would be easier, I didn't realise that The Australian Skeptical Society were all home brewers.



Ducatiboy stu said:


> > Your fist statement is actually confirming that the train drivers strike is over money Metro offers 17% they want 18%.
> >
> > *No, its more about conditions*
> >
> > Your second statement, anyone with half a brain would have known the $140,000 was plucked from the top end of the scale and given to the Herald Sun, $90,000 is what the union say is the base rate, so what is your point.


You say conditions, I say concessions.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I think that politics would be easier, I didn't realise that The Australian Skeptical Society were all home brewers.
> 
> You say conditions, I say concessions.


Well at first you where basically about the money

You still havent said how much they earn.

You rhetoric is slipping


----------



## sponge (19/9/15)

Potato, potata


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I don't think anyone minds what the train drivers earn. $90,000 as the base rate is fair enough, as is the 17% a fair and generous offer, NEGOTIATION, means just that, each side has to give something, Metro is providing the folding, and the train drivers through their union must make concessions. Expecting to receive a pay rise just as a matter of course isn't on, and neither is calling a strike while negotiations are still in progress.
> 
> And when that strikes interferes with other peoples livelihood, and their right to earn money, then they just show them selves for what they are, they don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.


Thats how much they earn read the top line.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Thats how much they earn read the top line.


I doubt they all earn $90k

Show me the link/proof that is what they earn


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Jim Chrystostomou, assistant secretary of the union’s locomotive division, said,the base rate is $90,000, not $140,000, a fair amount of OT would have to be worked to get to that figure.
> 
> A transport industry source said drivers often ran businesses on the side, had multiple properties and expensive cars supported by the high wages and low hours the job provided.


Are you sure you are reading the posts stu, I had to paste and copy the above, if I had put the link in from The Australian all that would have come up is notice asking to sign up for the digital edition.


----------



## wobbly (19/9/15)

Manticle

I'm not going to argue/debate political ideology with you in a faceless forum.
You have your views and I have mine and I doubt we will convince each other to adopt a different view or perspective.
For the record my views are basically right of center Liberal and I have some strong views on how some aspects of multiculturism will be the demise of the Australian culture which in my view is based on European Christian Values 

Now back to the Train Driver and general Union Rorting!!!

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Are you sure you are reading the posts stu, I had to paste and copy the above, if I had put the link in from The Australian all that would have come up is notice asking to sign up for the digital edition.


So you put in a snip from a newspaper. ( A news corp one at that ). Nice try but hardly credible, reliable or truthful.

Where is your actual proof of what they really earn


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

wobbly said:


> For the record my views are basically right of center Liberal and I have some strong views on how some aspects of multiculturism will be the demise of the Australian culture which in my view is based on European Christian Values
> 
> 
> Wobbly


Multiculturism IS Australian culture

Remeber the influx on Chinesse gold miners, the immigration of Italians and Greeks, the Vietnamiese after the war.....the Kiwi's in the 80's...

Not many White European Christians in that lot

If it was not for them we would be eating meat & 3 veg with a Roast on Sunday and laying back thinking of England


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So you put in a snip from a newspaper. ( A news corp one at that ). Nice try but hardly credible, reliable or truthful.
> 
> Where is your actual proof of what they really earn


It was an interview with the union secretary where he answered to the article in the Herald Sun, the newspaper regardless of which one only reports what it is told, if you think it is not reliable or truthful then you are saying that union rep is a liar take it up with the union rep who gave the interview.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

seamad said:


> Those pommy bastards got a bonus point in the last minute against Fiji. Fiji played pretty well in the first half, bit nervy, hopefully the wallabies can pull off a bonus point win too.


Now here is a test case for the AHRC be an interesting one, a QLD rag copped a huge fine for saying, "dirty poms" could end up with a huge fine here as well.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> It was an interview with the union secretary where he answered to the article in the Herald Sun, the newspaper regardless of which one only reports what it is told, if you think it is not reliable or truthful then you are saying that union rep is a liar take it up with the union rep who gave the interview.


My mistake. I could never go against the truthfulness of a Newscorp journalist.

Glad newspapers only report what they "have been told" and dont make shit up as in the case of the newspaper article that drivers earn $140k

If you believe everything in the newspaper than you probably think Tony Abbott was our greatest PM


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> My mistake. I could never go against the truthfulness of a Newscorp journalist.
> 
> Glad newspapers only report what they "have been told" and dont make shit up as in the case of the newspaper article that drivers earn $140k
> 
> If you believe everything in the newspaper than you probably think Tony Abbott was our greatest PM


Do you have trouble understanding posts, THEY ARE THE UTTERING'S OF A UNION DELEGATE.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Do you have trouble understanding that not everything you read in the newspapers is actual verbatim fact

Ever heard of journalists cherry picking comments to make a story

Never get the truth get in the way of a good story B)


----------



## wobbly (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy Stu

You are up to your old tricks of not reading and understanding what is being stated - I said - "some aspects of multiculturism" 

I don't have issue with other nationalities coming to Australia nor do I have issue with them undertaking their cultural beliefs, dress code, religion etc, my issue is when they don't try to assimilate and require us the host country to change our behaviour and is some instances laws under the guise of not to do so is deemed to be discrimination

The Chinese, Greeks, Vietnamiese, Europeans and even the Kiwi's have all assimilated into our culture without issue but some of those coming today don't and wont

Just as with my home coming to Australia "entry is a privilege not a right" 

Wobbly


----------



## Leviathan (19/9/15)

What do you mean by assimilate? What examples can you give where the country has had to change laws or our behavior?


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

Become one with the white.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

I think what Wobbly means is immigrants coming into this country will assimilate to Australian culture, which they eventually do, some change quickly others through generations, I expect if we look closely there would be amended laws, like a Sikh not having to wear a crash helmet on a bicycle so I suspect their would be others.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

Or become one with the laws and respect rather than whittle away at the customs of this country, which has been happening.


----------



## Leviathan (19/9/15)

Which ones though, i hear it a lot out there but i want to know what aspects of our countries culture are gone / going / changed .


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

Meat pies are gone, mateship is up shit creek and larrikinism has been banned.


----------



## seamad (19/9/15)

and apparently you can't say pommy bastard anymore


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Do you have trouble understanding that not everything you read in the newspapers is actual verbatim fact
> 
> Ever heard of journalists cherry picking comments to make a story
> 
> Never get the truth get in the way of a good story B)


If it is such a right wing newspaper why did it give a right to reply to the RTBU over the leaked document, when asked about the train drivers pay, why would he state that $140,000 is not what their pay is, but $90,000, that is not cherry picking.

Just keep your membership up to date with the Australian Skeptical Society, you must be their top performer, tell me did the Americans land on the moon.


----------



## seamad (19/9/15)

I've been a long term member of the Australian Sceptics, you misunderstand the meaning of sceptic

Skepticism is a dynamic attitude to the world around us. It is not a dogmatic approach restricted by “accepted wisdom”, but a serious and sincere appraisal of claims of how the world works.
In the case of Australian Skeptics, that appraisal concerns claims of the paranormal and pseudoscience – claims that often seem to contradict how we understand the way the world around us works and apparently conflict with established scientific knowledge. This is not to say that such claims are rejected out-of-hand; far from it. Such an attitude would be _cynicism _or _dogmatism_, not _scepticism_.
http://www.skeptics.com.au/


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> If it is such a right wing newspaper why did it give a right to reply to the RTBU over the leaked document, when asked about the train drivers pay, why would he state that $140,000 is not what their pay is, but $90,000, that is not cherry picking.


Because it wants to be seen as "unbiased"

Did they publish the whole interview in entirety.?...Verbatim....?

I have no doubt that SOME drivers MIGHT earn $90k, and I would suspect they would be driver trainers. But I doubt the newspaper ( the suppository of truth to some ) wrote the article with all the facts, just some B)


Its OK MaBB. I have paid up your LNP and White Christians Party membership for the next 12mnths


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Just keep your membership up to date with the Australian Skeptical Society, you must be their top performer, tell me did the Americans land on the moon.


Well according to those in the know, like astronoauts, they did

But I can understand your belief that it was all just a Stanley Kubrick production.

I would rather be skeptical that blindly following


----------



## pcmfisher (19/9/15)

Leviathan said:


> Which ones though, i hear it a lot out there but i want to know what aspects of our countries culture are gone / going / changed .


Do we try to stop Muslim men treating their women like belongings? Treating them no better than cattle? They do, and I doubt if its going to change.

I think allowing this is changing our culture.

Do we allow some sort of legal pluralism?

I think that would change our culture too.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Do we try to stop Muslim men treating their women like belongings? Treating them no better than cattle? They do, and I doubt if its going to change.


Maybe would start with men in general not treating their women like belongings 

We seem to turn a blind eye when well meaning white folk do it


----------



## wobbly (19/9/15)

Leviathan said:


> Which ones though, i hear it a lot out there but i want to know what aspects of our countries culture are gone / going / changed .


Just have a read of this article which you may or may not agree with but unfortunately it is a true reflection in what is happening by stealth

http://www.qsociety.org.au/qopposingislam.pdf

Wobbly


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

Agreed....there are segregated toilets at La Trobe labelled 'Muslim Only', the swimming pools at Monash.....for starters. Stealth being the key word, too.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

A true reflection? You reckon without QSociety looking out for us we'll be seeing state sanctioned beheading and child marriage in Australia any time soon?


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

Oh noes. They has a special toilet!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Women and the disabled also have their own toilets as well


----------



## goomboogo (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> That is exactly what I just said, Metro has made a fair offer, but the train drivers don't want to make any concessions and in return want 18% .


If train fares increase, does the service operator make compensatory concessions to the users of the train service?


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> Oh noes. They has a special toilet!


Is that the best you can do, childish drivel? I thought you were more intelligent than that.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

wobbly said:


> Just have a read of this article which you may or may not agree with but unfortunately it is a true reflection in what is happening by stealth
> 
> http://www.qsociety.org.au/qopposingislam.pdf
> 
> Wobbly


What...a 1 page article written by a bunch of biggots

Time to turn to the Australian Patriots League for some informed opinion


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

@madpierre: You're right but I'm pretty over the whole anti -Islam propaganda and I'm surprised at how entrenched it is within people.
I'm also over typing lengthy articulate responses with one finger on a smart phone.

No-one else's fault I know.

Is a separate changeroom (possibly funded and organised by the people who wanted it) really an indication of the end of things?
My response was not a lot worse than that stupid leaflet that tries to suggest we're all going to be marrying children in a forced theocracy due to the muslim menace.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

Ridicule it all you like, it is the reality of what is happening here.....tell me how you know they are a bunch of bigots.

Edit: This was in response to #1758, the danger of not 'quoting'.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

You did read the document in question didn't you?


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> You're right but I'm pretty over the whole anti -Islam propaganda and I'm surprised at how entrenched it is within people.
> I'm also over typing lengthy articulate responses with one finger on a smart phone.
> 
> No-one else's fault I know.
> ...


All good...I get the whole 1 finger/smart phone thing. The fact that there is a great deal of extreme anti-m hysteria does not rule out the fact that there is a great deal of measured critique of what is happening, which is treated with the same disdain as the stuff spouted by the jackie Howe, ugg boot and winnie blue brigade. I have met a representative of the Q Society...very measured, based on evidence and facts which are there. Trouble is, if you even seek to speak the truth of what is happening you can be hauled up on anti discrimination grounds.

Anyway..time for a beer.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

I love these guys.

God fairing white folk

http://www.godhatesfags.com/


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

I lived next door to an Islamic family until recently and have frequented the local islamic butcher and fruit market for years.

You know what? People, flesh and blood, work hard, look after their families. Never heard the guy next door even yell at his wife, let alone raise a hand to her or the kids. Most weekends there are delicious smells coming from their smokehouse.
Good times.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

I'm not denying the veracity or truth of any of what you say there though.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> If train fares increase, does the service operator make compensatory concessions to the users of the train service?


Why should they, if costs go up then they are passed on, it is business practice no matter how big or small profit margins have to be maintained, in saying that I don't know how many hours are paid out at OT rates it may be cheaper to employ more people, get the concessions they want and run the system more efficiently, without having to increase costs.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

I have know a number of muslims in my time, even had a muslim doctor as the family GP as a kid

Have yet to meet a violent one yet. All have been very respectful. Hell, even some of them would have lunch with us at the pub and dint care that we drank beer and ate roast pork for lunch


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> All good...I get the whole 1 finger/smart phone thing. The fact that there is a great deal of extreme anti-m hysteria does not rule out the fact that there is a great deal of measured critique of what is happening, which is treated with the same disdain as the stuff spouted by the jackie Howe, ugg boot and winnie blue brigade. I have met a representative of the Q Society...very measured, based on evidence and facts which are there. Trouble is, if you even seek to speak the truth of what is happening you can be hauled up on anti discrimination grounds.
> 
> Anyway..time for a beer.


Islam as a religion should be subject to the same critique afforded to any other religion. No more, no less.
The attempt to paint them all with the same mediaeval fundamenalist brush is akin to me associating you with the KKK or any of the inquisitions.


----------



## Leviathan (19/9/15)

wobbly said:


> Just have a read of this article which you may or may not agree with but unfortunately it is a true reflection in what is happening by stealth
> 
> http://www.qsociety.org.au/qopposingislam.pdf
> 
> Wobbly


Fair dinkum, I feel robbed of brain cells after reading that load.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> Islam as a religion should be subject to the same critique afforded to any other religion. No more, no less.
> The attempt to paint them all with the same mediaeval fundamenalist brush is akin to me associating you with the KKK or any of the inquisitions.


It is an ideology of which religion is just one part. They seek to mould those peoples and societies around them, jusy ask any non-muslims in Syria and Iraq right now....who can keep their lives and the right to exist by paying extortion, agreeing to the suppression of how they practice their faith, and so on. If theu refuse to pay, they die. No questions asked. Is that not just as mediaeval/fundamentalist? And what if we look at those not as muslim extremists, just muslims who are practicing what they are proscribed to do? Those who don't may not be moderates, rather one day/prayer session a week muslims?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Any one remember the Christian crusades.....Made Islam look like kindergarten play time


----------



## goomboogo (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Why should they, if costs go up then they are passed on, it is business practice no matter how big or small profit margins have to be maintained, in saying that I don't know how many hours are paid out at OT rates it may be cheaper to employ more people, get the concessions they want and run the system more efficiently, without having to increase costs.


I would offer to lend you a shovel but it would appear you've already started digging.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> It is an ideology of which religion is just one part. They seek to mould those peoples and societies around them, jusy ask any non-muslims in Syria and Iraq right now....who can keep their lives and the right to exist by paying extortion, agreeing to the suppression of how they practice their faith, and so on. If theu refuse to pay, they die. No questions asked. Is that not just as mediaeval/fundamentalist? And what if we look at those not as muslim extremists, just muslims who are practicing what they are proscribed to do? Those who don't may not be moderates, rather one day/prayer session a week muslims?


We're talking about Australia though, not Syria and Iraq. I've lived in areas highly populated by Australian Muslims for a good number of years and they're driven by most of the same things I am.
Believe me, if I really believed there was any likelihood of theocracy of any kind within this nation, I'd be up in arms but I just don't see it. The culture I'm looking at has more similarities than differences. Kids play, families cook, talk, laugh, men and women work hard, people get on with their lives. The dangers of radicalisation stem just as much from divisive tactics like those of Q Society as anywhere else.

As for moulding societies around them - well Western Imperialism has done a great job of that over the centuries.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

The Spanish Empire's

The British Empires

The French Empires

The Roman Empires

The Viking Empires

The Mongol Empires

The Portuguese Empires


----------



## wobbly (19/9/15)

Sure there are and I know a number of moderate Muslims willing/wanting to co exist in a peaceful manner living by the laws and customs of their adopted country

Call me xenophobic if you like but the experience in other places of the world indicate that there are a significant number of radicals in their mist and they will work towards and demand the adoption of for example "Sharia Law" which has already actively been pursued by the Islamic Council of NSW but (than God) rigorously rejected by the likes of Peter Costello and Nichola Roxon when both in a position influence government policy on the basis of "One law for all" 

If you don't think you should be concerned this is what has occurred in the UK and will be coming to a town near you in the future and when it does come those assimilated moderates will be made to comply under the fear of death

"In 2011, Britain's Muslims began demanding that Sharia replace British common law and become the only law in towns with large Muslim populations, including Birmingham, Bradford, Derby, Dewsbury, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Luton, Manchester, Sheffield, Waltham Forest and Tower Hamlets, an East London Muslim enclave whose streets are already plastered with posters declaring, "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced" (below) and where Muslim imams now issue death threats to women who refuse to wear the Muslim veil.
In 2011, Britain's Muslims began demanding that Sharia replace British common law and become the only law in towns with large Muslim populations, including Birmingham, Bradford, Derby, Dewsbury, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Luton, Manchester, Sheffield, Waltham Forest and Tower Hamlets, an East London Muslim enclave whose streets are already plastered with posters declaring, "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced" and where Muslim imams now issue death threats to women who refuse to wear the Muslim veil."

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Ok. Your xenophobic

Sharia law can never be implemented out here. Our system of law and political system does not allow for it

Why is pushing Sharia Law any different to pushing Christian Law ?





wobbly said:


> Sure there are and I know a number of moderate Muslims willing/wanting to co exist in a peaceful manner living by the laws and customs of their adopted country
> 
> Call me xenophobic if you like but the experience in other places of the world indicate that there are a significant number of radicals in their mist and they will work towards and demand the adoption of for example "Sharia Law" which has already actively been pursued by the Islamic Council of NSW but (than God) rigorously rejected by the likes of Peter Costello and Nichola Roxon when both in a position influence government policy on the basis of "One law for all"
> 
> ...


Has it happened....NO

There are Christians demanding the same with respect to marriage rights etc...

Its all a bit bullshit really

Best come and join the Skeptics society Wobbly


----------



## wobbly (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Sharia law can never be implemented out here. Our system of law and political system does not allow for it
> 
> Has it happened....NO


What cabbage plant are you hiding under!!

Whilst it hasn't happened there is no mechanisms to stop it if/when the numbers become large/loud enough

Our system of law and government (political system) are based on the "English Westminster System" and it happened there.

Wobbly


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

So some people demanded stuff. Big whoop.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

wobbly said:


> What cabbage plant are you hiding under!!
> 
> Whilst it hasn't happened there is no mechanisms to stop it if/when the numbers become large/loud enough
> 
> ...


What happened there? Birmingham is under Sharia now?


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Wobbly is correct there, it has been adopted into the British Law, but it doesn't include stoning for an adulteress or chopping off the hand of a thief and some of the other barbaric punishments.


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Interview with Anjin Choudary .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAPmJexGvIc


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Wobbly is correct there, it has been adopted into the British Law, but it doesn't include stoning for an adulteress or chopping off the hand of a thief and some of the other barbaric punishments.


They adopted a very limited interpretation of sharia where it relates to family disputes and it applies only to muslims who willingly partake.
I am very against the idea personally - although we do change legislation according to various influences, including public pressure, I think having different sets of laws for different cultures within the same sovereign state is absurd.

It's a vast distance between that and what fear mongers would have you believe though and a far cry from the implications from the doc wobbly linked.
It's also another country with a significant population of muslims due to post colonial policies.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Interview with Anjin Choudary .
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAPmJexGvIc


Oh ******* please


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

I can't see it ever happening here, I remember Enoch Powell when he predicted rivers of blood, wasn't that far off the mark when the Brixton riots eventuated, he wanted to give them money to bribe them to send them back.
I have also been in contact with the good and the bad Muslims the bad are few and far between but give them a good dose of education, and a hand full of books and videos by Chris Hitchens and the Quran turns to shit.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Dude

We are in Australia


----------



## Vini2ton (19/9/15)

Enoch's speech. I have only done a brief study of the man, but I grew up thinking he was a racist right-wing looney. I think history will judge him to be a visionary. His rivers of blood speech I now believe was taken out of its true context. More study on my part is certainly in order. History is ignored by the modern world at it's own peril.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

Yeah I still think he was a racist right wing looney. Give as much credence to him as I do Lord 'fisheyes' Monckton.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Hitler also made some good speeches according to some

So did Genghis Khan

So did Goerge W Bush

So did Sir Tony Abbott


----------



## Burt de Ernie (19/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Crane drivers semi skilled? Really? Ever watched one of those guys flying in something big with poor visibility about an inch clearance on each side and high winds? That's some real skill there.
> 
> Skilled doesn't mean "works with a computer" or "has a degree" you know...


Skilled means you are hard to replace thus valuable to your employer........


----------



## SBOB (19/9/15)




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## Vini2ton (19/9/15)

I'll cop that fellas. I recently agreed with a couple of things that Bolt said, so I know there's movement at the station. Remember that Dan Hicks and his Hot Licks song, "I Scare Myself."


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

Vini2ton said:


> I'll cop that fellas. I recently agreed with a couple of things that Bolt said,


Do you feel dirty ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Edit: This was in response to #1758, the danger of not 'quoting'.


I am going to quote you on that

" the danger of not 'quoting'


----------



## seamad (19/9/15)

always freshen up with some


----------



## malt and barley blues (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Hitler also made some good speeches according to some
> 
> So did Genghis Khan


I think old Genghis was to busy planting his seed to have time for speeches, no one would have heard him anyway, no mic's


----------



## Feldon (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I think old Genghis was to busy planting his seed to have time for speeches, no one would have heard him anyway, no mic's


Fark, he's finished bagging Aussie workers and the muslims, now he's starting on the Irish! Is there no end to it!.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Any one remember the Christian crusades.....Made Islam look like kindergarten play time


They may have been named as Christian crusades, but don't for a minute think they had anything to do with true followers of Christ. They may have believed and claimed so, it doesn't mean they were. At a very rough guess-timate, 90% of people organisations who do and say things in God's name and/or Christ's name are not following the way of Christ in any way whatsoever. And it's been that way for 2000 years.



Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ok. Your xenophobic
> 
> Sharia law can never be implemented out here. Our system of law and political system does not allow for it
> 
> Why is pushing Sharia Law any different to pushing Christian Law ?


There's no such thing as Christian Law, can you clarify specifically what you mean here?



manticle said:


> So some people demanded stuff. Big whoop.


Yep, and they got it too. They've been getting it here too, little by little.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

They didn't get it though. No sharia law here anywhere, some weird tiny concession in Britain (which I think is daft and should be overturned). My point, as immaturely expressed as it was about the muslim changerooms was a reference to that. If the worst we have to fear is a toilet block, then I reckon we're ok.
As for Christian law- there are (thankfully few) fundamentalists who believe the many of the laws in the old testament should be realised in contemporary society. Worse in the states but they exist here. Fortunately no-one really listens to them any more than they listen to extreme islam/islamism but they're around, rubbing one out over nasty vindictive religious tenets from deuteronomy or numbers every night after flailing their skin and applying ashes as a salve.

You would (rightly) dismiss them as fundamentalists, lunatic fringe, extremists and suggest they grossly misinterpret the scripture's intent yet it's all written down in black and white in a big tome some take literally..


----------



## welly2 (19/9/15)

seamad said:


> and apparently you can't say pommy bastard anymore


What about us pommy bastards? Can we say pommy bastard?


----------



## SBOB (19/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> They may have been named as Christian crusades, but don't for a minute think they had anything to do with true followers of Christ. They may have believed and claimed so, it doesn't mean they were. At a very rough guess-timate, 90% of people organisations who do and say things in God's name and/or Christ's name are not following the way of Christ in any way whatsoever. And it's been that way for 2000 years.


and yet you will blanket those that follow the Muslim faith all into the same 'basket' rather than using the same above logic/example


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

You have to say 'pommy person'.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> They didn't get it though. No sharia law here anywhere, some weird tiny concession in Britain (which I think is daft and should be overturned). My point, as immaturely expressed as it was about the muslim changerooms was a reference to that. If the worst we have to fear is a toilet block, then I reckon we're ok.
> As for Christian law- there are (thankfully few) fundamentalists who believe the many of the laws in the old testament should be realised in contemporary society. Worse in the states but they exist here. Fortunately no-one really listens to them anymore than they listen to extreme islam/islamism but they're around, rubbing one out over nasty vindictive religioys tenets from deuteronomy or numbers every night after flailing their skin and applying ashes as a salve.
> 
> You would (rightly) dismiss them as fundamentalists, lunatic fringe, extremists and suggest they grossly misinterpret the scripture's intent yet it's all written down in black and white in a big tome some take literally..


And that is why I say no true followers of Christ follow the old Law, as it was made obsolete upon Christ's death and resurrection. Anybody seekiing to do so are little more than the equivalent of the religious leaders of the day, and I would suggest are simply extensions of that lineage. I think I've said before, it was Christ Himself who tore the religious leaders of the day a new one for their hypocrisy etc.



SBOB said:


> and yet you will blanket those that follow the Muslim faith all into the same 'basket' rather than using the same above logic/example


Because what is being done now in the name of Islam is exactly as it is proscribed they do. A big difference. Those who are recognised as moderates are actually not following their Law.


----------



## madpierre06 (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> You have to say 'pommy person'.


Wonder if that extends to the cricket field.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

Nah just call them pricks.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

It's weird you can so totally dissociate half of the scriptures of the religon you claim to follow because it's not compatible with the society in which you live yet not afford adherents of a different faith the same luxury.

They are the same as you mate. Non- nutters, believe in a magic sky fairy and want to look after their own without hurting anyone.

I refer of course to the majority of muslims living within a western democracy.


----------



## welly2 (19/9/15)

madpierre06 said:


> All good...I get the whole 1 finger/smart phone thing. The fact that there is a great deal of extreme anti-m hysteria does not rule out the fact that there is a great deal of measured critique of what is happening, which is treated with the same disdain as the stuff spouted by the jackie Howe, ugg boot and winnie blue brigade. I have met a representative of the Q Society...very measured, based on evidence and facts which are there. Trouble is, if you even seek to speak the truth of what is happening you can be hauled up on anti discrimination grounds.


I would like to see a single example of one of those items listed in the Q Society "Opposing Islam" having occurred in Australia and for anyone to have been hauled up on anti-discrimination grounds for having spoken out against it.

None of the below is occurring in Australia to anyone's knowledge and for it to be approved or ignored by federal or state government:



> Polygamy, with up to four wives and an unlimited number of concubines;
> Child marriage, as Mohammed (the 'perfect example' of mankind) married a 6 year old;
> Slavery, as agreed by all four schools of Sunni jurisprudence;
> Killing of those who leave Islam, adulterers, blasphemers, critics of Islam and homosexuals;
> ...


And in addition, *no one* is being hauled up on anti-discrimination laws for speaking against any of this.

If anyone can show me a single example where of any of the above happening in Australia then I will most certainly eat my hat.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

Yummy yummy hat


----------



## welly2 (19/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Wobbly is correct there, it has been adopted into the British Law, but it doesn't include stoning for an adulteress or chopping off the hand of a thief and some of the other barbaric punishments.


What? Sharia law has in no way, shape or form been adopted into British Law.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

There's some weird acceptance in Britain of sharia judgements in matters of family disputes as I mentioned earlier.
That's the extent as far as I'm aware


----------



## welly2 (19/9/15)

wobbly said:


> Sure there are and I know a number of moderate Muslims willing/wanting to co exist in a peaceful manner living by the laws and customs of their adopted country
> 
> Call me xenophobic if you like but the experience in other places of the world indicate that there are a significant number of radicals in their mist and they will work towards and demand the adoption of for example "Sharia Law" which has already actively been pursued by the Islamic Council of NSW but (than God) rigorously rejected by the likes of Peter Costello and Nichola Roxon when both in a position influence government policy on the basis of "One law for all"
> 
> ...


I'm from Leeds. There were never, and has never been, any demands by Muslims in Leeds that Sharia law is to replace British common law. I can't speak for Birmingham, Derby, Leicester or Luton or London (Waltham Forest and Tower Hamlets) but certainly in all those cities listed in the north, there has never, ever been any demand for Sharia law to replace British common law in any serious context, any more than there have been demands by British drinkers for the price of beer to be reduced. A single nutcase or small group of nutcases who have been quoted demanding one thing or another does not equal "British muslims".

And you know those posters declaring "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced"? They're put up by a bunch of idiots who believe that their posters hold any weight or value. They hold as much weight or value as a poster I could post up on my street here in Darwin stating "You are entering a Pommy controlled zone: Pommy rules enforced" - of which those Pommy rules would include:


Jars of Marmite are to replace all jars of Vegemite
Cheese is no longer to be allowed in meat pies
Ale is to be served at a cellar temperature of between 11 and 13 degrees C
Debut is from this point onwards to be pronounced "Day-byou" not "Day-boo".
After a bit of google searching, this is the dickhead who has been putting up those signs:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020382/You-entering-Sharia-law-Britain-As-Islamic-extremists-declare-Sharia-law-zone-London-suburb-worrying-social-moral-implications.html

That ******* numbskull has been locked up on a number of occasions.

I don't know where you got that bit of text from but it's bollocks. It's nothing more than fear mongering.


----------



## welly2 (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> There's some weird acceptance in Britain of sharia judgements in matters of family disputes as I mentioned earlier.
> That's the extent as far as I'm aware


Which is perfectly inline with the law, in the same way that any two families could have disputes dealt with by anyone they choose to, if they all agree.

If you and I had a family dispute and decided that Wobbly should make a judgement on that dispute, then we could do so. They do that all the time in the USA - Judge Judy. It's called Arbitration.

I think Wobbly would make an excellent Judge Judy should you and I have a family dispute.


----------



## goomboogo (19/9/15)

The Pommy rules seem reasonable. Except for the cheeseless pies. It's not a requirement but the presence of cheese is acceptable. You must hate the idea of pineapple on a hamburger.


----------



## manticle (19/9/15)

welly2 said:


> Which is perfectly inline with the law, in the same way that any two families could have disputes dealt with by anyone they choose to, if they all agree.
> 
> If you and I had a family dispute and decided that Wobbly should make a judgement on that dispute, then we could do so. They do that all the time in the USA - Judge Judy. It's called Arbitration.
> 
> I think Wobbly would make an excellent Judge Judy should you and I have a family dispute.


Yeah I don't believe it warrants this hysteria. There was a great video clip a few years ago about a british anti-islamic
rally organised by some right wing crackpot fucknuts.
Interviewed one 12 year old skinhead with the intellectual capacity of a squashed grasshopper. 

'Why are you protesting?'

'I'm protestin bout them bringin down their muslamic law over London'

'Which law?'
'The muslamic law. Over London'
'Yes but which one?'
'The muslamic one'


----------



## butisitart (19/9/15)

manticle said:


> You have to say 'pommy person'.


'prisoner of her majesty what were borne out of wedlock' is probably politically correct. but pommy bastard is shorter and rolls off the tongue a bit easier.

almost feel sorry for the buggers when you put it like that.
(i did say 'almost'). :beer:


----------



## Black Devil Dog (20/9/15)

manticle said:


> You have to say 'pommy person'.


I prefer, illegitimate pommy love child.


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

Pom or Pommy is fine, its the word that follows which makes it a racial slur, though Pommy bastard would be acceptable in an intelligent debate and quite legal, if a complaint was put to the HRC about a racial slur being made in this thread, the defence of it being an intellectual debate would be out of the window, reason being there are no intellectuals contributing to this debate.


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

welly2 said:


> And you know those posters declaring "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced"? They're put up by a bunch of idiots who believe that their posters hold any weight or value.
> After a bit of google searching, this is the dickhead who has been putting up those signs:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020382/You-entering-Sharia-law-Britain-As-Islamic-extremists-declare-Sharia-law-zone-London-suburb-worrying-social-moral-implications.html


Not to long ago the exact same thing happened here in Melbourne, I can't remember the suburb, could have been Caulfield or St Kilda the Jews put up signs on the telegraph poles informing women they were to walk on the opposite side of the street


----------



## JDW81 (20/9/15)

wobbly said:


> I have some strong views on how some aspects of multiculturism will be the demise of the Australian culture which in my view is based on European Christian Values


Yep, and white European christian values spelt the demise of the values of the people who inhabited this country before it was invaded by white colonials.

JD


----------



## Bridges (20/9/15)

Just a note regarding the Muslim toilets at Latrobe uni and the hysteria they seem to have generated, Latrobe and other universities make a bucket load of money from full fee paying international students who come here pay full whack for their schooling then go home, surely making them feel welcome is a smart business decision. They still also provide a chaplaincy service for those who follow the catholic faith. Why not try and make your students happy and comfortable in their time at your institution.


----------



## wobbly (20/9/15)

Well2 questioned where the quote came from
_I don't know where you got that bit of text from but it's bollocks. It's nothing more than fear mongering._

It was contained in this article and it didn't state that it was law it stated that _ "__In 2011 Britain's Muslims* began demanding that Sharia *replace British common law and become the only law in towns with large Muslim populations, including--_etc" followed by a list of cities. The same thing is happening today in NSW where the subject is being pursued by the Islamic Council. 
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html


And this is an interesting read of *how it could* (note I use the term "could") happen in this country if something isn't done to stop/control the radicals and Iman's in this country that preach hatred for our values and way of life
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/islam-expansion.html

I guess no one believed that Hitler or Hirohito would sanction what they did in our so called modern times and more recently the Taliban in Afghanistan 

You guys can bury your head in the sand if you like and whilst it (Shara Law) may not be any sort of threat to main stream Australian society* today, *agitation to adopt it will continue to grow and cause civil unrest and we the moderate disbelievers will be asking the question in the future "How could that have happened in our modern day mature civilised society"

Wobbly


----------



## jlm (20/9/15)

welly2 said:


> I'm from Leeds. There were never, and has never been, any demands by Muslims in Leeds that Sharia law is to replace British common law. I can't speak for Birmingham, Derby, Leicester or Luton or London (Waltham Forest and Tower Hamlets) but certainly in all those cities listed in the north, there has never, ever been any demand for Sharia law to replace British common law in any serious context, any more than there have been demands by British drinkers for the price of beer to be reduced. A single nutcase or small group of nutcases who have been quoted demanding one thing or another does not equal "British muslims".
> 
> And you know those posters declaring "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced"? They're put up by a bunch of idiots who believe that their posters hold any weight or value. They hold as much weight or value as a poster I could post up on my street here in Darwin stating "You are entering a Pommy controlled zone: Pommy rules enforced" - of which those Pommy rules would include:
> 
> ...


5. Showers shall only be taken at a rate of once per week.
6. Everything is shit and should be complained about.

English stereotypes are fun.


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

Did you really just try and compare modern Australian society with 1930s Germany?

It's not about burying heads in the sand, it's about not jumping at shadows or creating paranoia, mistrust and division.

Exactly the same shit with a different smell as reds under the bed, south east Asian immigration, etc. Threatens our way of life indeed. What a bucket of nonsense.

Once again your sources are dreadful and reasoning suspect. Some idiot made unreasonable demands and got told to piss off. Some idiot put up a stupid sign. Let's all jump up and down in a fluster.
You reckon the Greens have got a screw loose?


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

Billionbibles as a reference? Wow. Could you scrape the bottom of any deeper barrels out you reckon?


----------



## technobabble66 (20/9/15)

^ +1
A 2 sec Google search reveals that quoted text is only posted up on a few far right whack-job sites. It apparently started a few years ago as a propaganda/hoax email that was spammed/chained around. 

Excellent source material. *

You can't seriously be believing this propaganda fiction, let alone quoting in a debate that's attempting to be rational? 
Surely the background to it would actually cause you to stop and wonder if you really do subscribe to the same mindset as far right whack jobs?


*not really


----------



## technobabble66 (20/9/15)

Oh by the way. How do the "Sharia invasion crew" explain Turkey? Something like 80% Muslim population. No sharia law. 
And have you been there? Pretty much the same as here - most people don't care about the religious aspect of their culture. Only a smallish minority do the mosque/prayer thing, fairly similar to the Happy-Clappers here. 

One Red Blood.


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

Maybe we could start quoting from that excellent reference text 'the protocols of the elders of zion' just to bring some academic level critical thinking to the whole debate?


----------



## wobbly (20/9/15)

Each to their own.
I have my views on what I see as the down side of some aspects of multiculturism (which in my view is a bit like communisim, sounds great in theory but falls down in so many areas in practice) which is how I got onto the subject of Muslims and their assimilation into our culture and comments on this forum aren't going to change them.

On a more light hearted note "Who saw South Africa loosing to Japan in the world cup pool game"

Will Eddy Jones now become front runner for the Emperors poisition

Wobbly


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

You're welcome to your views and your opinion. It would just carry more weight if it was based on something other than conspiracy nut bunkum.


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

I think as yet Wobbly's theories have yet to be proven, there has never been the multiculturalism in the past as there is today, so it is still to early to say what will happen, I am of the opinion that the Westminster system is a hard nut to crack and the only way anything could happen is by force, and in this present day I could never see that happening. 

It wasn't a smart move in England to open the doors to Sharia law by allowing Muslim wills, just the way they are worded shows what regard they have for their women.

I remember the West Indians coming into England in the early 50's, a God send to the Irish as they were the target of racial abuse before their arrival, then the West Indians had a God send when the Indians and Pakistanis started to come in after they got kicked out of Uganda, I also remember Indians having funeral pyres, and burning bodies on the banks of the Thames. They were serious issues then but not half as serious as the problems they have there now


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/9/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Oh by the way. How do the "Sharia invasion crew" explain Turkey? Something like 80% Muslim population. No sharia law.
> And have you been there? Pretty much the same as here - most people don't care about the religious aspect of their culture. Only a smallish minority do the mosque/prayer thing, fairly similar to the Happy-Clappers here.
> 
> One Red Blood.


Exactly. If anyone is interested, have a read of this and scroll down to 'legal rights' to see the direction of change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Turkey


----------



## welly2 (20/9/15)

Re: Islamic wills in the UK. "Stephen Newman, a partner at the Huddersfield law firm Baxter Caulfield who backed the guidance when it was introduced, said at the time: “Provided the will is signed in accordance with the requirements of [the Wills Act] there is nothing in English law to prevent a person domiciled in England from choosing to dispose of his or her assets in accordance with sharia succession rules. The Law Society’s guidance is intended to help non-Muslim legal practitioners understand those rules. It does not … change the law.”

Read more at http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/nov/24/law-society-withdraws-guidance-sharia-wills


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

Oh my God!! Panic Averted! QUICK PANIC!!


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

welly2 said:


> Re: Islamic wills in the UK. "Stephen Newman, a partner at the Huddersfield law firm Baxter Caulfield who backed the guidance when it was introduced, said at the time: “Provided the will is signed in accordance with the requirements of [the Wills Act] there is nothing in English law to prevent a person domiciled in England from choosing to dispose of his or her assets in accordance with sharia succession rules. The Law Society’s guidance is intended to help non-Muslim legal practitioners understand those rules. It does not … change the law.”
> 
> Read more at http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/nov/24/law-society-withdraws-guidance-sharia-wills


Nobody has said the law was changed, the law society drew up the guidelines for a will to be conformant with Sharia law, then promptly scrapped it


----------



## SBOB (20/9/15)

It's times like this that I am glad I can refer to 'the book'....


----------



## seamad (20/9/15)

it's all the mices fault


----------



## seamad (20/9/15)

Japan V Sth Africa was a cracker, gotta admire a national team called the blossoms. Only their 2nd world cup win ever.


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

seamad said:


> it's all the mices fault



The term 'mice' is actually considered offensive.


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Nobody has said the law was changed


Really? Hell of a lot of discussion about something that hasn't happened then.
I'm pretty sure changes in law were, shall we say : very strongly implied by some posters.

So to summarise - sharia law does not exist in either Australia nor Britain and we should probably worry about other things.
I'm off down our predominantly muslim street to grab a kebab which I'll enjoy with beer.


----------



## seamad (20/9/15)

manticle said:


> The term 'mice' is actually considered offensive.


true,they are merely the protrusion into our dimension of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

Pan fried dimensional rodent.


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

manticle said:


> Really? Hell of a lot of discussion about something that hasn't happened then.
> I'm pretty sure changes in law were, shall we say : very strongly implied by some posters.
> 
> So to summarise - sharia law does not exist in either Australia nor Britain and we should probably worry about other things.
> I'm off down our predominantly muslim street to grab a kebab which I'll enjoy with beer.


Nope no one said the law had been changed.


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

Well I'm glad we can all stop worrying about nothing then. I know that idea excites me.


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

Never worry about anything till it happens.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Never worry about anything till it happens.


Pretty sure we will be well dead before it happens


----------



## manticle (20/9/15)

My kebab happened. So did my beer. Oh shit, it's happening again (the beer that is).


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

What is this beer you speak off ?


----------



## SBOB (20/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> What is this beer you speak off ?


I think someone should setup a forum to talk about such things


----------



## welly2 (20/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Nope no one said the law had been changed.





> Wobbly is correct there, it has been adopted into the British Law, but it doesn't include stoning for an adulteress or chopping off the hand of a thief and some of the other barbaric punishments.


With all due respect, you said this back a few posts.


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

Which it had, can't see where I said the LAW has been changed.


----------



## welly2 (20/9/15)

Now you're arguing semantics. Sharia law hasn't been "adopted" into British law any more than Judge Judy has been adopted into US law.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

SBOB said:


> I think someone should setup a forum to talk about such things


It would never take off


----------



## malt and barley blues (20/9/15)

welly2 said:


> Now you're arguing semantics. Sharia law hasn't been "adopted" into British law any more than Judge Judy has been adopted into US law.


 I purposely inserted the word adopted your the one who is trying to interpret it as change not I.


----------



## JDW81 (20/9/15)

welly2 said:


> Now you're arguing semantics. Sharia law hasn't been "adopted" into British law any more than Judge Judy has been adopted into US law.


What, are you telling me that Judge Judy isn't a real judge?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> What, are you telling me that Judge Judy isn't a real judge?


WTF....you just ruined my entire week...


----------



## jlm (20/9/15)

Just to touch on the islamic toilet issue which has set so many keyboards a flutter...........There's technically nothing stopping me taking a shit in one of these things yes? Other than a bit of signage?

Because I've been known to use a toilet thats not specifically attributed my gender or level of disability when there is no other option.......Its not something I take pride in, but I'm out on the streets on a different location day in day out and sometimes a #2 needs to happen and the stall appropriate to myself is occupied.

I'd like to know what would stop me dropping off my kefir cosby kids at the pool in one of these designated halal drop off points.

If, and its a big if, the good lord Allah sets up some sort of infidel fire deterrent the moment I open the door.....than fair enough. I was wrong, there is a god. 

Assuming the above doesn't happen......it would still be available for me to shit in yes? Much in the way I still shit in disabled, and less frequently, female toilets? Assuming I'm willing to ignore the signage? The plumbing would still receive my stool?


----------



## Lemon (20/9/15)

That JLM,
and I intend the pun,
IS THE THIN EDGE OF THE WEDGE!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

jlm said:


> Assuming the above doesn't happen......it would still be available for me to shit in yes?


Depends if your poo is halal I guess


----------



## technobabble66 (20/9/15)

From the Halal entry in Wikipedia:
"Exception if no halal is available
If there is absolutely no other halal food available and the Muslim is forced by necessity, then a Muslim is allowed to eat non-halal food in order to prevent death due to starvation."

I guess you could re-interpret this:
"If there is absolutely no other halal shit available and the toilet is forced by necessity, then a toilet is allowed to eat non-halal shit in order to prevent embarrassment due to explosion."
:unsure:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

technobabble66 said:


> From the Halal entry in Wikipedia:
> "Exception if no halal is available
> If there is absolutely no other halal food available and the Muslim is forced by necessity, then a Muslim is allowed to eat non-halal food in order to prevent death due to starvation."
> 
> ...


You, Sir, are a Lawyer


----------



## technobabble66 (20/9/15)




----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/9/15)

In the Kangaroo Court I want you on my side B)


----------



## Feldon (20/9/15)

Curious about the proper etiquette. When you use the Ladies' toilet, do you sit down to piss?


----------



## technobabble66 (20/9/15)

Definitely.
Easier to check AHB while sitting. 
h34r:


----------



## welly2 (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I purposely inserted the word adopted your the one who is trying to interpret it as change not I.


In which case, can you clarify what you mean by "adopted into British law" if you're not saying the law has changed?


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

The British probate laws were never changed, the Law Society adopted into the probate law a theocratic law to help the Muslim population, either ignorant of the inequality of that law, or in an attempt to appease the Muslim population. The law was never changed, (The Law Society does not have the power to change a law) it just made the Sharia law compliant, and a legal entity in probate matters, and was scrapped about 6 months later due to its inequality.


----------



## welly2 (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> The British probate laws were never changed, the Law Society adopted into the probate law a theocratic law to help the Muslim population, either ignorant of the inequality of that law, or in an attempt to appease the Muslim population. The law was never changed, (The Law Society does not have the power to change a law) it just made the Sharia law compliant, and a legal entity in probate matters, and was scrapped about 6 months later due to its inequality.


So just to clarify, it (Sharia Law) wasn't actually adopted into British law, merely the Law Society created a guidance document advising on how to prepare Sharia-compliant wills and subsequently withdrew it?


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

Yes, it was adopted into British law by the fact the Law Society set out a guideline for the benefit of Muslims following Sharia law therefore making it a legal document, remember a last will and testament of the deceased is a difficult one to contest, it is the deceased's last right on this earth to bequeath to whom he chooses.
If the will isn't considered legal it could be contested,that is why the Law Society made the Sharia will compliant with British law.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716844/Islamic-law-is-adopted-by-British-legal-chiefs.html


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

Feldon said:


> Curious about the proper etiquette. When you use the Ladies' toilet, do you sit down to piss?


If he's a Carlton supporter, yes.


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> If he's a Carlton supporter, yes.


Curious as to why you didn't say Collingwood supporter?


----------



## Airgead (21/9/15)

If a white guy beats or kills his partner, or shoots someone he's "disturbed". If a brown person does it they are a terrorist intent on bringing Sharia law to Australia.

This sharia conspiracy stuff is one step away from wearing a tinfoil hat and believing that the royal family are actually shape changing lizard people from outer space who are breeding us as cattle. Its madness... with a big dose of "we don't like brown people and their funny ways" thrown in for good measure.

Lets call it what it is. its not "sticking up for Australian values" or "our way of life"... that's bullshit. Its xenophobia with a good dose or racism thrown in on top. Most of it boils down to a bunch of dickheads who don't like brown people. Islam is just a convenient proxy target at the moment that makes them looks slightly less like out and out racists.

Embrace diversity. I had Persian lamb shanks for lunch yesterday. It was magnificent. And halal as well. So was my kebab last week. That was tasty too.


----------



## JDW81 (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Curious as to why you didn't say Collingwood supporter?


Because there is no such thing as a lady who supports collingwood, and they all stand up to piss...


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

They don't need ladies, I was in the Cricketers Arms on Punt road a few years ago when a bunch of Collingwood supporters came in, when going for a piss later, (in the men's and pissing in the urinal) two Collingwood supporters came out of the same cubicle. :blink:


----------



## manticle (21/9/15)

Water restrictions?


----------



## Dave70 (21/9/15)

Airgead said:


> If a white guy beats or kills his partner, or shoots someone he's "disturbed". *If a brown person does it they are a terrorist intent on bringing Sharia law to Australia*.


Only to an hysterical mouthbreather who thinks islam is a race of brown people and not a religion of predominantly south east Asians.


----------



## technobabble66 (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> They don't need ladies, I was in the Cricketers Arms on Punt road a few years ago when a bunch of Collingwood supporters came in, when going for a piss later, (in the men's and pissing in the urinal) two Collingwood supporters came out of the same cubicle. :blink:


2 Maggies supporters and their good friend Charlie? Or Crystal?


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

No just the two men , Ben and Phil, Ben Doon and Phil McCracken.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Curious as to why you didn't say Collingwood supporter?


A good mate of mine is a Carlton supporter and a few years ago we had a bit of laugh about Carlton players needing zippers sown into the underside of their shorts, so that they could sit down to piss.


----------



## wobbly (21/9/15)

Airgead said:


> If a white guy beats or kills his partner, or shoots someone he's "disturbed". If a brown person does it they are a terrorist intent on bringing Sharia law to Australia.
> 
> This sharia conspiracy stuff is one step away from wearing a tinfoil hat and believing that the royal family are actually shape changing lizard people from outer space who are breeding us as cattle. Its madness... with a big dose of "we don't like brown people and their funny ways" thrown in for good measure.
> 
> ...


Man how miss guided are you!!

Take a look at what has happened/about to happen in France and Belgium to name a couple 

Digest the message in this video clip http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001

Have a read of this article http://globalcomment.net/articles/view.php?id=166

Call me Xenophobic if you will but I have nothing against any person coming to this country and assimilating but I do strongly object to the stealth being used to change our culture. The Cronulla riots in your own city are a good point in question and yes I will admit that there were a few ultra right wing nationalist that got in on the fight after it started 

It probably wont happen in my remaining life time but you can be assured that it will happen in yours or your children's life time and your generation will only have it self to thank for that by hiding behind some aspects of multiculturalism, political correctness and tolerance and for the record I think Geert Wilders is on the money

Wobbly


----------



## mje1980 (21/9/15)

lol


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

I have stated before only time will tell how this multiculturalism will end, in the past Australia have accepted Italians and Greeks in large numbers all with Christian beliefs, Vietnamese and Chinese, Buddhist, Christian and atheist. 
Christianity and Buddhism were spread in a peaceful manner whereas Islam was spread by the sword, they have so many interpretations of their own religion, and the only way they can sort out their differences is with violence and murder, just as the religion was founded.
Its no good saying well I know some Muslims and they are great, but their are those who live among us who have come to this country but still hate infidels 
probably more than those of their own faith but different belief.
Time only will tell what the future holds.

This has got to be worth a few pages.


----------



## real_beer (21/9/15)

It's funny how things change over the years. Go into any pub around Brisbane when I first started drinking in the 70's and you could chat to anyone about anything within reason, but talking politics and religion were always frowned upon if someone brought them up. I think most everyone understood that the personal belief.of others in these areas could be so important to them that they just respected everyone's right to be different and just made friends with the person as they were. I still do this.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> This has got to be worth a few pages.


Nope


----------



## Airgead (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I have stated before only time will tell how this multiculturalism will end, in the past Australia have accepted Italians and Greeks in large numbers all with Christian beliefs, Vietnamese and Chinese, Buddhist, Christian and atheist.
> Christianity and Buddhism were spread in a peaceful manner whereas Islam was spread by the sword, they have so many interpretations of their own religion, and the only way they can sort out their differences is with violence and murder, just as the religion was founded.
> Its no good saying well I know some Muslims and they are great, but their are those who live among us who have come to this country but still hate infidels
> probably more than those of their own faith but different belief.
> ...


Fuckin seriously? Did you type that with a straight face?

From the crusades to the violent dispossession of native people in the name of christian civilization to the troubles in Northern Ireland, the history of Christianity is soaked in blood.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.

Take a good look in the mirror my friend...


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

Crusades were not about spreading Christianity but getting the Muslims out of the holy land, Christianity is soaked in the blood of those who were trying to spread the word they didn't get armies up to conquer in the name of religion, I said only time will tell, you nor I will know the outcome of multiculturalism,
it has to be managed correctly.
One terror suspect a day is arrested in the UK, and the sad thing is a lot of them were born there.
Have you ever traveled to a Muslim country ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

I will just leave this here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg7qrYqJ9ns


----------



## manticle (21/9/15)

I will just leave.
Best of luck wobbly and malt barley blues.
I think you're talking horsehit but I really can't be bothered anymore.


----------



## Spohaw (21/9/15)

This is getting deep 





Allah Allah ..... 


Settle down and have a beer haha

I sent this photo around to my mates on September 11 saying "happy 9/11 , Allah Allah "

No one thought it was funny haha


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

Any one know how the train drivers are getting on....

Anyone found out yet how much they really earn..?


----------



## goomboogo (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Christianity and Buddhism were spread in a peaceful manner whereas Islam was spread by the sword, they have so many interpretations of their own religion, and the only way they can sort out their differences is with violence and murder, just as the religion was founded.


You've obviously never heard of the Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadors.


----------



## Seaquebrew (21/9/15)

Spanish inquisition anyone?

Cheers


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> You've obviously never heard of the Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadors.


Now THEY where Christians. None of this fancy Westrbro Baptist church crap, just full on Christianity


----------



## SBOB (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Have you ever traveled to a Muslim country ?


Any in particular, but I assume you mean Asia and South East Asia as they are the majority of 'muslim' countries (the fact you call a country a 'Muslim' country is part of the problem in the first place.. )


----------



## Feldon (21/9/15)

Wobbly and M&BollocksBlues come on here with all this anti-multiculturalism rant, yet they themselves are beneficiaries of the very multiculturalism that they criticise.

It was Australia's generous post-war policy of bringing in immigrants from all over the world that gave these two the home they now have in Australia. They rode in on the same wave. In short, they are blow-ins from the UK. But that's OK, we take all comers.

But they are not Australian in the cultural sense. They are not the same as Aussies. Australians are a big, warm-hearted people. We take a man as we find him, good or bad. We don't lump all peoples from one country or religion into the same stereotype. But these two carry with them the same tired old hatred of foreign peoples that still resides in the heats of many Brits in the old country. It comes from the centuries of imperial exploitation of foreign lands, and the Brits haver come to terms that their empire has ended, long ago.

I suppose there is little to be said to them except the words they might chose to use against other immigrants to Australia, and that is if you don't like it here go back to where you came from. You're not welcome here.


----------



## jlm (21/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> If he's a Carlton supporter, yes.


Just to defend myself against some wild accusations against my character............I lift the seat when I'm forced to piss in the ladies but do not always drop it after.........I do sit down to pee when the hangover requires, its a perfect place to hang your head in your hands and consider why you do these things to yourself as a grown man...........And as a stereotypical nine toed, 3 balled QLDER I follow rugby league and have no idea what the quoted statement above means.

Slightly on topic, todays highlights from the union witch hunt/inquiry (please circle your preference) was ******* boss. I wish I could find the audio I heard on the way home. Dave Hannah, bravo. In response as to why some dude from Mirvac (not real well known for their interest in domestic renovations, rather more so in multi million dollar commercial stuff) helped him out with his reno at his place in Cornubia (I LUUUURVE the fact his McMansion is in Cornubia.....I hope it has a bitchin' view of the Hyperdome [or whatever its called now]) Dave responds with "He's a good bloke, I'm a good bloke."

I'm convinced Dave. Now lets see some of those invoices you're waiting for. A few years down the track.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

Feldon said:


> But they are not Australian in the cultural sense. They are not the same as Aussies. Australians are a big, warm-hearted people. We take a man as we find him, good or bad. We don't lump all peoples from one country or religion into the same stereotype. But these two carry with them the same tired old hatred of foreign peoples that still resides in the heats of many Brits in the old country. It comes from the centuries of imperial exploitation of foreign lands, and the Brits haver come to terms that their empire has ended, long ago.


Well said. 

Why are the racist bigots always white & christian ?


----------



## Spohaw (21/9/15)

Cause you don't talk to enough people of other ethnicities ?

I'm sure there are some that aren't white and Christian out there


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well said.
> 
> Why are the racist bigots always white & christian ?


Only the white Christian racist bigots are white and Christian.

The other racist bigots are non white and non Christian.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> The other racist bigots are non white and non Christian.


Correct, but I already knew that 

Just wanted to know about the white christian ones


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

Racism in Australia is pretty lightweight by world standards.


----------



## jlm (21/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Racism in Australia is pretty lightweight by world standards.


Not much of a silver lining on that cloud. Maybe child rape is worse in other parts of the world too?


----------



## Spohaw (21/9/15)

Is that the straw man ?


----------



## Spohaw (21/9/15)

jlm said:


> Not much of a silver lining on that cloud. Maybe child rape is worse in other parts of the world too?


http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/9/15)

this thread is getting ugly, but we're nearly up to 100 pages. Carrrn the hunge!


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

jlm said:


> Not much of a silver lining on that cloud. Maybe child rape is worse in other parts of the world too?


We're quite a tolerant society, sure we have had issues in the past and still have today, but if you care to research the racial tensions around the the world, you'll find that our race issues are comparatively minor.

The rest of your comment doesn't deserve a response.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

The reason most of us are tolerant is because most of us grew up with people of different ethnicity as kids. 

There are not many actual racists over here. Its just not cool


----------



## Camo6 (21/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> this thread is getting ugly, but we're nearly up to 100 pages. Carrrn the hunge!



Haha! I was trying to encapsulate this thread with some sort of witty meme but this is all I got:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8172nw3beQ


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> this thread is getting ugly, but we're nearly up to 100 pages. Carrrn the hunge!


Hope we get a letter from the Queen when the 100 clocks over.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=6&v=JwLaDzKFiBY


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/9/15)

It's a few pages early.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

Better print 100 limited edition copies


----------



## manticle (21/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It's a few pages early.


Paid for the gold it is.


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

No reward for playing Devils advocate. 

Though I still think the future is unpredictable, if we are still around.


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> You've obviously never heard of the Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadors.


And you obviously do not know the meaning of conquistadors, has that got anything to do with religion, no, just a country expanding their empire,
Religion was a minor part in the devastation of the Incas and the Aztecs, it was the actions of the Portuguese and Spanish quest for power, and disease which decimated the natives.


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

SBOB said:


> Any in particular, but I assume you mean Asia and South East Asia as they are the majority of 'muslim' countries (the fact you call a country a 'Muslim' country is part of the problem in the first place.. )


So you have never visited a Muslim country.?


----------



## real_beer (21/9/15)

Brewing is a fantastic hobby it brings human beings together from all walks of life and beliefs from all over the planet. We learn more and grow better both as individuals and a group by our interactions with each other. With mutual respect we can look for the best in each other and promote a camaraderie that makes the hobby better for us being part of it.

I know this thread is in an open discussion area but sometimes things are best left unsaid because of the damage they can cause. A good thing to do if something really inflames a violent reaction you feel compelled to react to, is type your entire reply into a text editor, don't hold anything back, really rip into it, then save it and sit on it for a day. The next day open it up and read it, if you still want to post it, read it out loud about 10 times and then close it up for another day. If you do this for a week and still want to post it, go on the forum and look at the person you might be aiming at and look up all the old posts and replies they've ever made. If you honestly don't see a person that's about a 60% reflection of yourself you should still delete the file and get on with what's really important in life.

I've watch lots of great documentaries about different races of people from all over the world and 99.9% of the ordinary working people just want to have a family and provide for them with love and hard work. All the mess comes from the greedy despots, dictators, and warlords who can never have enough wealth, money, or power to feed their pitiful ego's. I believe most human beings whether their 30 or 100 years old still have a vulnerable little childhood boy or girl inside them that just wants too be. Too be happy, too be healthy, too belong, and too be loved. Whether your passing people and strangers on the street or talking to someone face to face, even your spouse, partner, children, brothers and sisters, before you say anything to them salute the Divinity (life-force) in them and wish them well, it'll make you better as a human being and by doing it you'll be making the world a better place for everyone. Just try it for a week and see for yourself. It's even more important to do this to people you say you hate or dislike, this is because the person you hurt the most when hate and resentment rears its ugly head is yourself.

I'll start
'My fellow brewer's and human beings I salute the Divinity in you all, and wish you all the best in your lives, now and in the years ahead'.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> No reward for playing Devils advocate.
> 
> Though I still think the future is unpredictable, if we are still around.


I know my future is going to be unpredictable, and I know I will be around for it. :chug:


----------



## manticle (21/9/15)

real_beer said:


> Brewing is a fantastic hobby it brings human beings together from all walks of life and beliefs from all over the planet. We learn more and grow better both as individuals and a group by our interactions with each other. With mutual respect we can look for the best in each other and promote a camaraderie that makes the hobby better for us being part of it.
> 
> I know this thread is in an open discussion area but sometimes things are best left unsaid because of the damage they can cause. A good thing to do if something really inflames a violent reaction you feel compelled to react to, is type your entire reply into a text editor, don't hold anything back, really rip into it, then save it and sit on it for a day. The next day open it up and read it, if you still want to post it, read it out loud about 10 times and then close it up for another day. If you do this for a week and still want to post it, go on the forum and look at the person you might be aiming at and look up all the old posts and replies they've ever made. If you honestly don't see a person that's about a 60% reflection of yourself you should still delete the file and get on with what's really important in life.
> 
> ...


Hippy


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

Feldon said:


> Wobbly and M&BollocksBlues come on here with all this anti-multiculturalism rant, yet they themselves are beneficiaries of the very multiculturalism that they criticise.
> 
> It was Australia's generous post-war policy of bringing in immigrants from all over the world that gave these two the home they now have in Australia. They rode in on the same wave. In short, they are blow-ins from the UK. But that's OK, we take all comers.


 I am not against multiculturalism,nor have I made an anti-multiculturalism rant, I am just stating that the western world are now having to absorb millions of Muslim people because they cannot solve their differences among themselves, the Muslims biggest threat and greatest danger is from other Muslims, they do not appreciate democracy,Sharia law has been their mainstay, however it is interpreted.
NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS, like the UK the schools will have to be monitored, presuming they will have their own schools, to spot any signs of extremism.There will be lots of problems to overcome, it is not as simple as immigrants we have had in the past, but if you are so smart maybe you can put your ideas forward of what the future holds.


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Any one know how the train drivers are getting on....
> 
> Anyone found out yet how much they really earn..?


Funnily enough I was out with a friend tonight whose daughter is an air hostess, her friend is a train driver,passed her exams, and is still fairly new, she is on $120,000 a year. So the union delegate was lying about $90,000 ayear


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/9/15)

Couple more friends in there and I might just believe it


----------



## malt and barley blues (21/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> A good mate of mine is a Carlton supporter and a few years ago we had a bit of laugh about Carlton players needing zippers sown into the underside of their shorts, so that they could sit down to piss.


WEAL knows of one of Carlton's famous son's who was mixed up with some very shady characters, they made a TV series about them called Underbelly.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> WEAL knows of one of Carlton's famous son's who was mixed up with some very shady characters, they made a TV series about them called Underbelly.


And the relevance of that is what exactly..?


----------



## real_beer (22/9/15)

manticle said:


> Hippy


 :lol: Seems a bit like it. But earlier today while reading some of the posts in this thread something made me think of a very popular member who bared his soul and revealed his long term fight with depression. It started an outpouring of admissions by other members they were fighting exactly the same battle. I just started thinking that there are probably lots more people on here we don't know about silently suffering the same condition, and having so many negative heated debates might be pushing them away from a forum they joined to make friends on. I know it's an open discussion but the thread is like a continuous news headline that's one of the first topics visitors see, 5 pages okay but 97?

Shit I'm adding to it again now, so that's it I'm not going to post on this thread again


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> One terror suspect a day is arrested in the UK, and the sad thing is a lot of them were born there.


More than one white murder suspect is arrested per day in Australia, but there just isn't the same hysteria. Crime by "white" australians poses a far greater threat to our society than the perceived threat by the minority of the Islamic population who wish us harm.

Probably worth remembering the worst "terrorist" attack in Australia was committed by a white man in a little place in Tasmania called Port Arthur. 

JD


----------



## mje1980 (22/9/15)

Don't ruin the hysteria with fact please


----------



## Tropico (22/9/15)

Bronwyn will never die. Only 3 pages to get to 100


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Don't ruin the hysteria with fact please


Sorry MJ, I momentarily forgot that fact or reason has no place in political or social debate in Australia.


----------



## malt and barley blues (22/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> More than one white murder suspect is arrested per day in Australia, but there just isn't the same hysteria. Crime by "white" australians poses a far greater threat to our society than the perceived threat by the minority of the Islamic population who wish us harm.
> 
> Probably worth remembering the worst "terrorist" attack in Australia was committed by a white man in a little place in Tasmania called Port Arthur.
> 
> JD


I don't know why you have bought murder suspects into the equation, or why you have elevated Martin Bryant from mentally ill person to a terrorist.
What is your point.


----------



## warra48 (22/9/15)

How did Bronnie fare in Malcolm Turnbuckle's new ministry?


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I don't know why you have bought murder suspects into the equation, or why you have elevated Martin Bryant from mentally ill person to a terrorist.
> What is your point.


What was the guy who held up the cafe in Sydney? Terrorist or mentally ill?

In my book anyone who murders large numbers of people with an automatic weapon is a terrorist.

My point is that the terrorism threat and the threat posed by our ever increasing multiculturalism is no where near as bad as it is made out to be by the inflammatory media and politicians. I was also making the point that while there are people being arrested for suspected terrorism offences in the UK/Australia/where ever, there are far more home grown Australians who commit crimes that undermine the social fabric of our country far more than those would-be terrorists we are all apparently so worried about.

I work in a hospital. I have never once treated a person who has been the victim of terrorism, however I have treated multiple people who have been assaulted, or who are drugged up to their eyeballs. Just the other day I watched a family turn of their son's life support who had been bashed by a drugged up bogan because he told him to leave his girlfriend alone. I wonder if they are worried about terrorism as well.

There are far more "white" australians doing far worse things to our fellow countrymen on a daily basis that have long lasting ramifications for our society than terrorists (or mentally Ill white men with automatic weapons).


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The reason most of us are tolerant is because most of us grew up with people of different ethnicity as kids.
> 
> There are not many actual racists over here. Its just not cool


Its wholly possible to do that and still behave like racist. Did your neighborhood have a 'wog shop?' Mine did, the wogs name was Jim, and his kids went to my school. Dunno why we picked on them, but we did. They were of Maltese heritage, olive skinned so obviously looked a little different. You know what kids can be like. As a father now, I'd hate to imagine how how felt when his children walked in the door and announced the other kids had been calling them greaseballs and so on. It wasn't systematic bullying, but it still happened from time to time. I feel like a ******* **** even thinking about it. I was never taught this at home, so I guess it it was my introduction to mob mentality. 
One of the reasons i encourage my kids to be as autonomous as possible. 

Ironically, in my teen years we moved to a semi rural area where we were surrounded - literally - by market gardens and Maltese families. We were never short of lettuce or cabbage again.
More ironically, I've been happily married for -erm- many years - got to be at least twenty I recon - to a girl of Scottish Maltese extraction. So there you go. They got me in the end..


On a closer to on topic, topic, old mate Turnbull is slaying that ex ACTU hack Shorten in the polls.
All hail our venture capitalist overlord!


http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

warra48 said:


> How did Bronnie fare in Malcolm Turnbuckle's new ministry?


She is the minister for VIP travel B)


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

I was going to put this in the "hello malcolm' thread, but we're just a few runs short of 100 pages here.. Looks like Abbott couldn't have been happier about recent events, have a read:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/tony-abbott-goes-topless-at-wild-farewell-party-after-being-ousted-by-new-pm-malcolm-turnbull/story-e6frg6n6-1227535045623

transcript, for those who can't get past the paywall:




> Tony Abbott goes topless at wild farewell party after being ousted by new PM Malcolm Turnbull
> SAMANTHA MAIDEN THE SUNDAY TELEGRAPH SEPTEMBER 20, 2015 12:00AM
> 
> Tony Abbott took off his shirt while partying in the prime minister suite the night he was forced out of the top role by Malcolm Turnbull. Source: News Corp Australia
> ...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Its wholly possible to do that and still behave like racist. Did your neighborhood have a 'wog shop?' Mine did, the wogs name was Jim, and his kids went to my school. Dunno why we picked on them, but we did. They were of Maltese heritage, olive skinned so obviously looked a little different. You know what kids can be like. As a father now, I'd hate to imagine how how felt when his children walked in the door and announced the other kids had been calling them greaseballs and so on. It wasn't systematic bullying, but it still happened from time to time. I feel like a ******* **** even thinking about it. I was never taught this at home, so I guess it it was my introduction to mob mentality.
> One of the reasons i encourage my kids to be as autonomous as possible.
> 
> Ironically, in my teen years we moved to a semi rural area where we were surrounded - literally - by market gardens and Maltese families. We were never short of lettuce or cabbage again.
> ...


Funny how every town has a Chinese takeaway and a Fish & Chip shop ran by Greeks.

I grew up in the Riverina which has a huge immigrant Italian population, the Mafia, the whole bit. We used to call them cat lickers cause they went to Catholic schools.

There was never any real racist hate like you see now. We used to have a dig at them but that was about it.

Family next door made the best salami & hams going and the Italians in general where wonderful people. 

We have a bit of a thing or taking the piss out of people, but if ever they where in trouble we would be the first to help. Guess there is a line between racism & bigotry and poking a bit of fun and taking the piss


----------



## malt and barley blues (22/9/15)

Most countries are multicultural,Australia is a multicultural country, the UK has a large Muslim population, we have to look at what is happening there to
get an insight into what we can expect here, as I said the trouble doesn't come from the initial intake, it comes from the offspring's of those people.
One terror suspect a day is arrested, that is on top of their drug crimes and assaults murders etc.
We are having trouble now, I am presuming it will escalate, 2 terror suspects have been killed and others arrested fortunately no one has been killed apart from the 2 in the Sydney siege whether he was mentally disturbed or regarded as a terrorist.


----------



## goomboogo (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> And you obviously do not know the meaning of conquistadors, has that got anything to do with religion, no, just a country expanding their empire,
> Religion was a minor part in the devastation of the Incas and the Aztecs, it was the actions of the Portuguese and Spanish quest for power, and disease which decimated the natives.


To say religion played a minor role exhibits a total lack of understanding of the history. Your claim appears to be that of a Christian revisionist.


----------



## malt and barley blues (22/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> To say religion played a minor role exhibits my total lack of understanding of the history. Your claim appears to be correct


That's better


----------



## Spohaw (22/9/15)

Haha


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

you've got him on a bit of a technicality M&BB. to spread catholicism was _one_ of the goals of the conquistadors, but you're right, it wasn't the _direct_ cause of the demise of the Aztec & Incas.


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> To say religion played a minor role exhibits a total lack of understanding of the history. Your claim appears to be that of a Christian revisionist.


Thats funny because even apologist religious scholars like Reza Aslan claim the activities of the Taliban and IS have nothing to do with islam.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

another page down, good job everyone! carrrn the 100


----------



## Seaquebrew (22/9/15)

Tomas de Torquemada


----------



## Airgead (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> I don't know why you have bought murder suspects into the equation, or why you have elevated Martin Bryant from mentally ill person to a terrorist.
> What is your point.


Because he's white. that;s the point. White mass murderers are regarded as mentally ill. Brown mass murderers are regarded as muslim terrorists.

The Sydney siege guy is an absolute classic example. Massive mental health issues. Even the bandidos rejected him as being too crazy but no... he's obviously a terrorist.Because he's brown.

The guys who blew up that federal building in Oklahoma (The US's second worst terrorist attack) were radical christian terrorists bent on bringing down a government they saw as being run by the antichrist.... but no of course they weren't. they were white. They were disgruntled and mentally disturbed.

Anders Brevik who murdered hundreds to start a christian war against muslims... mentally ill or terrorist? Silly question. You don't get much whiter than Anders Brevik so he's clearly mentally ill... only brown people are terrorists.


----------



## Airgead (22/9/15)

manticle said:


> I will just leave.
> Best of luck wobbly and malt barley blues.
> I think you're talking horsehit but I really can't be bothered anymore.


Yeah... can't be arsed any more. Starting to delve into the darker, less savory corners of the internet (any time the Q society come out you know you are getting into some odd places).






Out.


----------



## malt and barley blues (22/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> another page down, good job everyone! carrrn the 100
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A 100 pages of absolute shite, don't you love it when people bite.


----------



## Florian (22/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Anders Brevik who murdered hundreds to start a christian war against muslims... mentally ill or terrorist? Silly question. You don't get much whiter than Anders Brevik so he's clearly mentally ill... only brown people are terrorists.


Anders Breivik has been clearly labelled as a terrorist.
He's even been convicted of terrorism.
He was treated in court as being a sane person, not as mentally ill.

EDIT: Grammar


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

I just care about the train drivers.


Arguing over religion just a waste of time. 

We need to get back onto politics and how much we love our elected members so much


This Malcom bloke seems pretty popular, although Newscorp gave him a bit of grief as per usual. 

If I was Bill, I would be very, very worried. Turnbull is smart and articulate.


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Airgead said:


> Anders Brevik who murdered hundreds to start a christian war against muslims... *mentally ill or terrorist?* Silly question. You don't get much whiter than Anders Brevik so he's clearly mentally ill... only brown people are terrorists.


Two sides of the same coin in my book.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> A 100 pages of absolute shite, don't you love it when people bite.


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Arguing over religion just a waste of time.


Only when people cant seem to differentiate between politics, race, culture, religion and purveyors of middle eastern cuisine.


----------



## malt and barley blues (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I just care about the train drivers.
> 
> 
> Arguing over religion just a waste of time.
> ...


I'm sick of train drivers, I kept wanting to get my myki card out, we know Malcolm is doing alright and Shifty isn't, what about the greedy airport staff wanting more money, they only get $150,000 a year.


----------



## goomboogo (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> A 100 pages of absolute shite, don't you love it when people bite.


I'm glad you were only trolling. I was starting to think you believed the rubbish you've been saying. I should have known no person could be so moronic as to suggest Christianity has been spread around the world by nothing more than peaceful persuasion. I can sleep better knowing you were only joking.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Only when people cant seem to differentiate between politics, race, culture, religion and purveyors of middle eastern cuisine.


Oh man, who doesnt like a good kebab, 4am, drunk, Kebab is the the ONLY option.

Then there are lamb kofata's, falafels, tabouleh, humus and Turkish coffee....


Damn..I am hungry now


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> I'm glad you were only trolling. I was starting to think you believed the rubbish you've been saying. I should have known no person could be so moronic as to suggest Christianity has been spread around the world by nothing more than peaceful persuasion. I can sleep better knowing you were only joking.


Just think of all those, essentially, stolen babies that the church took in as abandoned or orphaned...or god forbid, tried to assimilate into white christian culture


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Oh man, who doesnt like a good kebab, 4am, drunk, Kebab is the the ONLY option.
> 
> Then there are lamb kofata's, falafels, tabouleh, humus and Turkish coffee....
> 
> ...


Can you just imagine what they could do with pork products?

Another example of how religious taboos **** it for everybody.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

MMm....Bacon kebab.....


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Imagine baklava made with crunchy pork belly instead of filo pastry.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Imagine falafel rolled in bacon peices.. :icon_drool2:


----------



## seamad (22/9/15)

Bronny the bitch still in obvious denial that she did anything wrong

BRONWYN Bishop turned her back on a lifelong friendship with Tony Abbott and told colleagues she would vote against him in last week’s leadership coup because he had forced her to resign as Speaker.
Ms Bishop confided in colleagues that she abandoned Mr Abbott because the former PM had acted ­“appallingly” by making her resign over the “Choppergate” scandal.
Liberal MPs who backed Mr Abbott during his dramatic ousting as prime minister last week said they felt “sick in the guts” over Ms Bishop’s “ultimate betrayal” of her decades-long political ally.


Politics, the game where the best back stabber wins to become leader.
Talking of pork, wonder if Mal spent anytime with David Cameron whilst at uni ?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

seamad said:


> Politics, the game where the best back stabber wins to become leader.
> Talking of pork, wonder if Mal spent anytime with David Cameron whilst at uni ?


relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHOJgs-5Y3s


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

99 pages, yeeeeaaaahh


----------



## Tropico (22/9/15)

warra48 said:


> How did Bronnie fare in Malcolm Turnbuckle's new ministry?


She gets to sit up in the back corner with Tony


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

First person to 100 gets the Tony Abbott autobiography titled " Farking Cnuts... 4 days before my pension.."


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> 99 pages, yeeeeaaaahh


Nothing like a 100% carafoam ale carbonated to 10 volumes I always say.


----------



## Tropico (22/9/15)

Looks the same as what is coming out of my keg atm

MLIKO pour


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> First person to 100 gets the Tony Abbott autobiography titled " Farking Cnuts... 4 days before my pension.."


Is this the second prize?


----------



## seamad (22/9/15)

The poodles book is probably a rarity, I imagine the publishers did an optimistic 100 book print run, I mean, who would buy it ?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Nothing like a 100% carafoam ale carbonated to 10 volumes I always say.





Tropico said:


> Looks the same as what is coming out of my keg atm
> 
> MLIKO pour


heh, yeah, it was infected AF. I sent the photo to Moa and Warnie, no response.


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

what is the record for the longest thread on AHB (excluding the ongoing what are you brewing/Ebay ones)?

I remember a particularly ranty thread about botulism in no chill cubes, but don't think it got anywhere near the ton.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Is this the second prize?


No prizes for second


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

I think the WPMO thread got pretty long before being deleted. Ah the good ol days


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> what is the record for the longest thread on AHB (excluding the ongoing what are you brewing/Ebay ones)?
> 
> I remember a particularly ranty thread about botulism in no chill cubes, but don't think it got anywhere near the ton.


Go close. 


By far the quickest thread. 

6 weeks. Go team


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

I don't think anyone has been banned over their posting in this threat either. Been very civil by past AHB standards.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> I don't think anyone has been banned over their posting in this threat either. Been very civil by past AHB standards.


That is truly a worry...


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That is truly a worry...


We can always ramp it up a notch and try and get the mods to dust of the naughty cane for some good old fashioned AHB punishment.


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I think the WPMO thread got pretty long before being deleted. Ah the good ol days


Getting pissed off is a no no. You may apparently only get it off your chest. 
That gets my goat.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78405-continuing-rant-thread-get-it-off-ya-chest-here/


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> We can always ramp it up a notch and try and get the mods to dust of the naughty cane for some good old fashioned AHB punishment.


We need more life bans, and warning points


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Getting pissed off is a no no. You may apparently only get it off your chest.
> That gets my goat.
> 
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78405-continuing-rant-thread-get-it-off-ya-chest-here/


172 pages. Looks like our work is far from over.

Should we pick some other topics to cover? Climate change hasn't got much of a look in yet, nor has same sex marriage.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Climate change isnt real, everyone knows that B)


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Climate change isnt real, everyone knows that B)


You've obviously never spent much time in Melbourne, the climate changes every 5 minutes.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

100


----------



## JDW81 (22/9/15)

And there it is, the boy from Grafton raises his bat in triumph and salutes the adoring crowd. Many thought he'd never make it, but through 6 weeks of sheer determination here he stands...

Anyone you'd like to thank stu?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

WEAL


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> 100


Congratulations! 





..rigged..


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Climate change isnt real, everyone knows that B)


Allan Jones sure does. 
Seems 97% of scientists are foisting a 'hoax' based on 'corrupted data'. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs__vsBOpZ8


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

But Allan is near to God to some people... to others he is God


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

ugh he is such an idiot.


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

One of Jonsies 'world renowned scientists' Lord hyperthyroidism Monckton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWggYR0D5sU


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/9/15)

world renowned numpty IMO


----------



## Dave70 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But Allan is near to God to some people... to others he is God


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Ever seen angry lawn bowlers..?.

They get that cranky they write letters, not sure to who, but they write them


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ever seen angry lawn bowlers..?.
> 
> They get that cranky they write letters, not sure to who, but they write them


My dad's a pennant lawn bowler and he tells some great stories of oldies who should know better behaving badly.
Most of them have played sport all their lives and still get white line fever with the sledging that goes with it.

After a few post-match 7 ounce glasses of full strength some of them still apparently get the urge to step outside and settle things.
Or maybe that's just cos he plays at Dromana.


----------



## malt and barley blues (22/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> I'm glad you were only trolling. I was starting to think you believed the rubbish you've been saying. I should have known no person could be so moronic as to suggest Christianity has been spread around the world by nothing more than peaceful persuasion. I can sleep better knowing you were only joking.


And don't forget that bit about Islam being spread by the sword.  The more more moronic the post the bigger the moron who replies. :lol:
Sleep well.


----------



## real_beer (22/9/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> 99 pages, yeeeeaaaahh


Customer: Barkeep what's the 99 all about?
Barkeep: It means no matter what you do when you pour it 99% of the beer stays in the bottle!

edit:
Or it could be a secret message to Kiwi's living in Australia that they shouldn't forget about the 99 they left behind and haven't had chance to escape new Zealand yet.


----------



## warra48 (22/9/15)

I'm impressed.

Onto 100 pages, and not a moderator's moment amongst them.


----------



## real_beer (22/9/15)

warra48 said:


> I'm impressed.
> 
> Onto 100 pages, and not a moderator's moment amongst them.


 h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r: they might be secretly gathering intelligence evidence too use later! Or their on holidays in Bali for a week or two and couldn't care less.


----------



## warra48 (22/9/15)

I've never been to Bali, and have no desire to ever go there. 

By the way, I'll let you in on a secret. It's so secret we had to get a special clearance from ASOI.
We moderators all have lengthy intelligence lists, so be careful, be very careful. Your transgressions are all carefully catalogued for future reference. You just might migrate to the top of our list of those about to face the ban hammer if you don't behave..


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Does that also apply to train drivers....?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)




----------



## real_beer (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> non union days.jpg


Are those ladies people pushers like Japan now uses to shove everyone in the trains so the doors can close?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Yep


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## warra48 (22/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Does that also apply to train drivers....?


Only those earning $140,000 or more per annum.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Is that there real wages or Herald-Sun wages ?


----------



## technobabble66 (22/9/15)

Apparently after the CFMEU were requested to provide various documents by the inquiry into unions they proceeded to shred 20 tonnes of documents the next day.
I'll be curious to see if that's deemed at least a teeny bit illegal.

Certainly makes you wonder if something dodgy was going on that they were keen to hide, hey?!

Obviously they should've gotten advice from Essendon FC on how to shred records...


NB: no mention of train drivers though.


----------



## seamad (22/9/15)

They didn't read the request for documents because apparently it was in an attachment and no one noticed it.


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## goomboogo (22/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> And don't forget that bit about Islam being spread by the sword.  The more more moronic the post the bigger the moron who replies. :lol:
> Sleep well.


You're still struggling to put a coherent argument together. Don't worry, just pretend to be joking when your position falls to pieces. It's worked well for you so far.


----------



## Bribie G (22/9/15)

I haven't been on this thread for a couple of weeks but interested to know if Ducatiboy Stu or Wide Eyed and Legless won in the end?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

He wont admit defeat


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## Bribie G (22/9/15)

Now, no sniping or undermining please.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

Its true


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## goomboogo (22/9/15)

Bribie G said:


> I haven't been on this thread for a couple of weeks but interested to know if Ducatiboy Stu or Wide Eyed and Legless won in the end?


The beating was so bad that one of them left the country.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

He had better get back quick and take advantage of the fact that the LNP are popular again


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## Black Devil Dog (22/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> WEAL was beating Ducatiboy stu so bad, that he had to leave the country so that he could stop.


Yep.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

pffft... was like being tickled with a small feather


----------



## goomboogo (22/9/15)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Yep.


Stu's welfare has always been WEAL's primary concern. He's a very warm and generous man.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (22/9/15)

Attached to a lump of 4x2.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/9/15)

goomboogo, on 22 Sept 2015 - 7:13 PM, said:




goomboogo said:


> WEAL was beating Ducatiboy stu so bad, that he had to leave the country so that he could stop.


Oh it was bad allright, he left the country in shame....wasnt even an attempt at a beating


----------



## malt and barley blues (23/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> You're still struggling to put a coherent argument together. Don't worry, just pretend to be joking when your position falls to pieces. It's worked well for you so far.


And here's me thinking your the joker. The conquistadors were a bunch of missionaries who put the natives to the sword.


----------



## malt and barley blues (23/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> He had better get back quick and take advantage of the fact that the LNP are popular again


I hope he is back soon, I'm sick of his dog taking me for a walk, its more headstrong than he is.


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## goomboogo (23/9/15)

You're. How are those train drivers going? You should give it a go considering you think they average $140000 per year. But then again, you also claimed it was only a 3 day training course and this may be beyond your ability if your efforts in this thread are anything to go by.

Have you dug yourself out of the logic trap you fell into regarding wages and business costs?


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## JDW81 (23/9/15)

What's the moral of these last 102 pages?

Bronwyn got what was coming to her. Tony got what was coming to him. Bill is going to get what's coming. The unions will get what's coming to them. Train drivers are over paid, all managers a oxygen thieves and newscorp are the least biased source we have.

Well payed all.

JD


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## goomboogo (23/9/15)

What will we learn in the next 102 pages?


----------



## Dave70 (23/9/15)

^
Abbots removal was a conspiracy between the Marxist UN and the Turnbull faction, as predicted by Lord Monckton back in February. 
I knew it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG0WcjGHkEw


----------



## Spohaw (23/9/15)

^^^^ seems legit


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## Dave70 (23/9/15)

Wish I could get the interview he did with Jones this morning on 2GB, it had it all. Including the inevitable comparison to late 1930s Germany and Goebbels propaganda strategies.
What is it they say about evoking the nazis in that context?.


----------



## Tropico (23/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> What will we learn in the next 102 pages?


Just wish I could replace the faces.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (23/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Wish I could get the interview he did with Jones this morning on 2GB, it had it all. Including the inevitable comparison to late 1930s Germany and Goebbels propaganda strategies.
> What is it they say about evoking the nazis in that context?.


Godwin's Law? Only relates to Internet discussions but I suppose Monckton's powerpoint presentations are just a collection of Internet bloggers echo chamber garbage. Haha


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/15)

Think of the children


----------



## Dave70 (23/9/15)




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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/15)

Got them out of school and back to work


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## malt and barley blues (23/9/15)

goomboogo said:


> You're. How are those train drivers going? You should give it a go considering you think they average $140000 per year. But then again, you also claimed it was only a 3 day training course and this may be beyond your ability if your efforts in this thread are anything to go by.
> 
> Have you dug yourself out of the logic trap you fell into regarding wages and business costs?


The ability to make money has nothing to do with how well you perform on a Home Brew thread, did you think it was? If you want a lesson in economics, my forte is in property, but the question you asked about Metro, would they put up fares, I would say yes, the yield to the share holders should not start to slip,the bigger the yield to investors would increase investment in the company.Same with yield from rental properties, if you fix your yield at a certain percentage and the value of property goes up, then the rent must go up to keep the same yield, otherwise you would go backwards.
Most of the statements you make about logic traps, 3 day courses,and $140,000 average wage for train drivers.Worrying about this thread is not going to do you a lot of good.


----------



## Camo6 (23/9/15)

ATTENTION MODS!

I have just received a PM from this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B0sFtRTlx4







Just joking. I'm just starting to get into this thread. I can't wait until WEAL gets back. Holidaying in Japan with family when he could be posting inane comments to complete strangers at all hours of the day or night? The ******* nerve.


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## Vini2ton (23/9/15)

I still think Enoch drove a train once and was a member of the classical greek professor's union. The cheek, he going to Oxford an all.


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## goomboogo (23/9/15)

malt & barley blues said:


> Most of the statements you make about logic traps and $140,000 average wage for train drivers.Worrying about this thread is not going to do you a lot of good.


Can you rewrite this in English? Currently, it makes no sense.

You need to calm down before you have a heart attack. The smiley face emoticons only thinly veil your anger.

You have committed the same error in your latest post as in several previous posts. You respond to a comment without comprehending what has been written. I never said anything about a person's ability to make money. The $140000 per year reference related to you making a claim based on one very dubious source. This lack of thought whilst claiming to be worldly wise is why your arguments have been so poor. I will not be surprised if you fail to comprehend this post because your true forte appears to be speaking without thinking.

You're still a long way off understanding the economics to which I referred earlier. Groupthink is not your friend.


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## jlm (23/9/15)

JDW81 said:


> What's the moral of these last 102 pages?
> 
> Bronwyn got what was coming to her. Tony got what was coming to him. Bill is going to get what's coming. The unions will get what's coming to them. Train drivers are over paid, all managers a oxygen thieves and newscorp are the least biased source we have.
> 
> ...


And lets assume that this little corner of our democracy/dichotomy will continue voting for either side while whinging about the character of politicians they're forced/obliged to vote for.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/15)

jlm said:


> And lets assume that this little corner of our democracy/dichotomy will continue voting for either side while whinging about the character of politicians they're forced/obliged to vote for.


Yes. Yes it will.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> Wish I could get the interview he did with Jones this morning on 2GB, it had it all. Including the inevitable comparison to late 1930s Germany and Goebbels propaganda strategies.
> What is it they say about evoking the nazis in that context?.


Alan Jones v Chopper Read with Kerrianne Kennerly......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj3jrpQzCe0


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## Spohaw (23/9/15)

Who ever is trying to debate social issues by referencing Kerry Anne needs to reassess their argument IMO


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## Spohaw (23/9/15)

Looking at her made me throw up a little


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/15)

Spohaw said:


> Who ever is trying to debate social issues by referencing Kerry Anne needs to reassess their argument IMO


It wasnt really an argument....more a statement of fact


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## Dave70 (24/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Alan Jones v Chopper Read with Kerrianne Kennerly......
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj3jrpQzCe0


That program had many high points. 
Who could forget a macarana dancing Peter Costello. 
Yup. High points.


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## malt and barley blues (24/9/15)

malt & barley blues, on 23 Sept 2015 - 5:16 PM, said:




malt & barley blues said:


> Most of the statements you make about logic traps and $140,000 average wage for train drivers.Worrying about this thread is not going to do you a lot of good.





goomboogo said:


> You need to calm down before I have a heart attack. The smiley face emoticons only thinly veil your anger.


I thought a posters anger shows through when they start to make personal attacks and misleading posts when they can't win a trick.

But just to please you, I am going to get really angry.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/15)

Mike Walsh was the king


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## Dave70 (24/9/15)

He certainly knew how to treat a guest better than delusional Don Lane..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvolhx8yJA


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## manticle (24/9/15)

I prefer this one with Don
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uUFklia47WM


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## jlm (24/9/15)

Seeing as the thread is devolving into favourite interviews from yesteryear, I'd like to contribute this gem where Norman Gunston tried to interview Keith Moon:



I'd also like to thank the band Mustang for making me aware of this important piece of Australian history with the tops new album they released this year.


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## manticle (24/9/15)

Mustang still going?
I used to work with/serve food to/live with/watch them when I was cooking in North Melbourne.


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## jlm (24/9/15)

I thought the same thing. Half down here and half back there. New album rocks.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/15)

Dave70 said:


> He certainly knew how to treat a guest better than delusional Don Lane..


Still.....I give you exhibit B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BeMCfEV28


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## GuyQLD (24/9/15)

Not sure what is more impressive, the punch of the fact he didn't go down.


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## manticle (24/9/15)

@jlm - cool. Always fun live. Don't know if Todd is still involved but he was a housemate and member of warped (lived with the lead singer of warped for a bit too -last saw them supporting Melvins).

Good times.


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## Dave70 (25/9/15)

manticle said:


> I prefer this one with Don
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uUFklia47WM


Tom sounded a little jet lagged. He was a pushover for Lanes brand of belittlement.
What he needed was a more up beat guest to cross swords with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMtH58M3HXA


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/9/15)

LOL.... Iggy.... :super:


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## Tropico (4/12/15)

It ain't over yet. Let the purge v 2.0 begin!


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## antiphile (4/12/15)

If we go back to my mate Bronny...

I'm sure some of you have seen the Sunday morning ABC TV show called "The Insiders". They usually have a "mash-up" of a politicians head on a TV show or movie that always gives me the giggles. It seems the person responsible has just won a Walkley Award for them, and I particularly like Bronwyn in "Arrested Development" (not that I've ever watched that TV show). It's about the 5th one down from the top at:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-03/huw-parkinsons-video-mashups/6999664

Cheers


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

The Liberal party....the party that just keeps on giving...and giving ( to rich mates )


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## wide eyed and legless (4/12/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The Liberal party....the party that just keeps on giving...and giving ( to rich mates )


We've gotta love em haven't we stu.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

Mention the Liberal Party....and BAM.... I got myself a WEAL


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## wide eyed and legless (4/12/15)

You can never miss with me, hear that bell go come out swinging.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

So how is Mal performing... is he as good as Tony..?


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## seamad (4/12/15)

Actually Bronny has come in at a paltry 18th for spending for the first 6 months of this year.
Barnaby hits the #1 spot
LNP in top 4
Greens trying to become players too, with Bandt pulling into 5th


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

Heard today that Liz was to busy to see Tony when he was over there a few weeks back. And he was head honk of the " We love you Liz, Long Live the Queen" group, with Mal being in charge of the other side


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## wide eyed and legless (4/12/15)

I miss Tony, Mal's so good it leaves us nothing to talk about, except Shortens ratings in the polls.Then again Mals not done anything apart from poncing around, at least Tony did something.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

Tony did what exactly.....


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## jlm (4/12/15)

Blamed the other side.

In opposition.

And as our nation's "leader".


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

He must have some redeeming features.....


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## wide eyed and legless (4/12/15)

Stopped the boats, Royal Commission into corruption within the Unions, removed the Carbon Tax, gave us something to discuss on here, the man is a champion.


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## Tropico (4/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I miss Tony, Mal's so good it leaves us nothing to talk about, except Shortens ratings in the polls.Then again Mals not done anything apart from poncing around, at least Tony did something.


Is that Mal Turnbull or Mal Brough?


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Stopped the boats, Royal Commission into corruption within the Unions, removed the Carbon Tax, gave us something to discuss on here, the man is a champion.


He didnt really stop the boats you know... ( and deep underneath you do realise this )......yeah the Royal Commission was just him being a cnut, and hasnt really expossed much more than we already knew......oh and he got rid of what he called the Toxic tax....which is really like saying " I won....everyone gets new pencils and paper "







WAIT.... Tone's in his budgies would even stop the QE2 from from coming here....


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## JDW81 (4/12/15)

Are the Lib/Nats going to give us another 100+ pages? I sure hope so.

Fire up lads, and show us what you're made of. And lets be sure to keep reason and fact out of all debates, they have no such place in the political diatribe in this fair country.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

I do hope we get another 100 pages out of them....








But there will never be another Abbott........unless DT makes pres of the mighty USofA


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## Tropico (4/12/15)

Well Ian MacFarlane has already deserted the sinking ship. Who's next Brough or Turnbull. Surely Turnbull must remember Tony and Bronwyn.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

Hahah....McFarlan.... hold the press guys

Be no different to a Union member switching unions.....


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## antiphile (4/12/15)

Why, oh why, do you people consider this a matter for levity? Different people may have different skill sets, but politicians only go through the rigours of an election process to do good for the people they represent. They certainly don't have any ambition or wish to reward themselves.

So why not give them a break and take what they say at face value?

Cheers from the non-cynical bastard.


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## JDW81 (4/12/15)

antiphile said:


> Why, oh why, do you people consider this a matter for levity? Different people may have different skill sets, but politicians only go through the rigours of an election process to do good for the people they represent. They certainly don't have any ambition or wish to reward themselves.
> 
> So why not give them a break and take what they say at face value?
> 
> Cheers from the non-cynical bastard.


Wow, my sarcasm metre just exploded. I'll have to go an buy a new on now.


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## Tropico (4/12/15)

Tropico said:


> Well Ian MacFarlane has already deserted the sinking ship. Who's next Brough or Turnbull. Surely Turnbull must remember Tony and Bronwyn.


oh, and Joe.... ummm Joe who?


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## wide eyed and legless (4/12/15)

If Tony Abbott made a come back Bribie would be more than entitled to use his picture of the taxi driver from,'Total Recall'


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

But it would make you a happy man WEAL.


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## seamad (4/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Stopped the boats, Royal Commission into corruption within the Unions, removed the Carbon Tax, gave us something to discuss on here,


We didn't ask about his biggest fuckups ...
I heard the funny walk came from Peta giving him a good pegging each morning with her black mamba strap on


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

Do you think that that ever consummated there relationship...


Oh wait.....I see virgin daughters dressed in white on the political stage.....



Pass me a Cougars.....


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## spog (4/12/15)

Oi !. Everybody take a step back and remember .
No one is talking about the biggest muppet in Oz politics.............
I give you, Bill Shorten, Mr 15% .


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

he is almost a RIS


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## seamad (4/12/15)

If you can remember back, Mal was Mr 14 %, only outdone by Mr 7% Brendan Nelson


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/12/15)

Coopers Vintage is 7.6%..... I sure know what party I am going for B)


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## sponge (5/12/15)

I miss Palmer..


----------



## wide eyed and legless (5/12/15)

I don't think he's gone from parliament, he just never turns up. :lol:


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## wide eyed and legless (5/12/15)

seamad said:


> We didn't ask about his biggest fuckups ...
> I heard the funny walk came from Peta giving him a good pegging each morning with her black mamba strap on


Sounds like a bit of jealousy creeping in there, is it about Tony's achievements, or the pegging he got from Peta?


----------



## seamad (5/12/15)

As he hasn't quit parliament yet, Tony's best contribution so far, and his likely legacy, is eating the onion.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/12/15)

Let's never forget his contribution to comedy. Satire writers never had it so good


----------



## JDW81 (5/12/15)

and his compassionate and sensitive discussion with the ADF troops in Afghanistan, just after a couple of their mates were killed.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

Only WEAL can see Tony's alleged achievments. Time to put down the Murdoch papers WEAL..


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## wide eyed and legless (5/12/15)

I like a paper that tells it how it is, Labor Party crap Liberal Party not so crap, as for Tony I would have loved for him to have gone the full term, so would've Shifty Shorten, I wonder if he can stab himself in the back, gonna save someone else doing it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

So you just like papers that favour one ( Liberal ) side


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## wide eyed and legless (5/12/15)

I like a paper that tells it how it is. The Australian.


----------



## seamad (5/12/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I like a paper that tells me how to think like Rupert. The Australian.


FTFY


----------



## JDW81 (5/12/15)

My favourite news outlet is the onion. About as factually correct as News LTD, but far funnier.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

The Shovel


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## manticle (5/12/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Oh wait.....I see virgin daughters dressed in white on the political stage.....
> 
> 
> 
> Pass me a Cougar.....


So you prefer Margie to Frances then?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

Tough call.......


----------



## Dave70 (5/12/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Let's never forget his contribution to comedy. Satire writers never had it so good


Yep, politicians. Satirical gold.


----------



## Weizguy (5/12/15)

manticle said:


> So you prefer Margie to Frances then?


Sorry, couldn't shag either of them, just on principle.

Margie looks too much like her husband, anyway.


----------



## antiphile (7/12/15)

I'm absolutely certain that no-one here would be cynical enough to suggest that this appointment is somehow related to a convenient way to get a potential pain in the a$#@ out of the country and keep him quiet.

If they were thinking that way, for shame, for shame.


----------



## spog (7/12/15)

Neverrrrrrrrr crossed my mind.


----------



## Tropico (7/12/15)

Just another "job for the boys", Bronwyn's going to be fuming (about all those travel entitlements).


----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/12/15)




----------



## goomboogo (7/12/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1449483294.261133.jpg


"After I eat this onion, I'm going to take a chomp out of Humpty Dumpty standing next to me.


----------



## madpierre06 (7/12/15)

Then buy myself a cheap fridge for beers with Joe before he heads off O/S.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/30298992/tony-abbott-arrives-to-buy-couples-second-hand-fridge/


----------



## technobabble66 (7/12/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1449483294.261133.jpg


The moment Brandis started weighing up Turnbull for PM...


----------



## Tropico (8/12/15)

madpierre06 said:


> Then buy myself a cheap fridge for beers with Joe before he heads off O/S.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/30298992/tony-abbott-arrives-to-buy-couples-second-hand-fridge/


"they definitely were not expecting former prime minister Tony Abbott to land at their front door."

Don't tell me he used a helicopter to go and pick it up!


----------



## Dave70 (8/12/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1449483294.261133.jpg


Little wonder the Good Food Guide never asks pollies for their input.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/12/15)

^ a rare delicacy


----------

