# good Food article - the truth about cider



## brettprevans (16/2/13)

Not a bad article esp for those starting out in cider

http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/drink/the-truth-about-cider-20130211-2e823.html?location=Melbourne

Its great to see craft ciders its just a shame about their BS price tag. $22 for a 500ml bottle is highway robbery. But im sure people will buy it or the sellers will rethink their pricing structure.


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## Pixiedust (16/2/13)

That was very interesting, thanks!

I think that goes a long way to explaining why HB cider doesn't replicate the sweetness on commerical ciders, because they aren't real ciders. 

Will do some research into the ones I drink. I don't like the idea of drinking something made from imported concentrate.


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## 4feathers (16/2/13)

Hey citymorgue2, yahoo a good read and throwing credance toward using real juice to make a cider. I read up a while ago about what happens to apples in china[now biggest supplier of apple concentrate, dry and liquid] to make the concentrates, how this is stored and treated. Then aussie suppliers buy it cheap add aussie water [hopefully good water] and sell it as juice. Never will use it again. I said in a post a while ago that with nearly all brewing we are encouraged to use the best ingredients in any brew, good ingredients make good brew. But when it comes to ciders and cysers people automatically go for the cheap crap and try to make a go of it. We need to turn that around because in Ciders and Cysers the apple juice content is a high proportion in the mix. I would encourage all apple juice brewers to try just one batch using the good stuff and see what you think. Some people have said they can't get fresh juice but most have access to woolies and coles and if they don't stock it they will get it in and if you keep buying it they will keep stocking it. Most comes from tassie under names like "Apple isle", "organic earth apple juice" and "pure cloudy apple juice", i prefer the certified organic but all are fresh juice with 300 added [vit C] to stop oxidation of the juice. Give it a go.....Peter


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## brettprevans (16/2/13)

In my experiance (having done a decent amount of cider making) dont think theres a huge differance in quality between good supermarket juice like the preservitive free stuff from aldi and 'fresh' juice. Theres a taste differance yes but I dont neccesarily equate that with quality. Vcertainly if it ws cheaper id use fresh juice or if I had access to fruit id make fresh. But I digress.

Its interesting about the concentrates as u can source good quality concentrate easily in the USA and if your in the wine industry im sure you could source ut here but its not readily available. Well the good stuff isnt. 

Always pays to know where your ingrediants come from. All these typea of articles are good dor rhe craftbrewing scene


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## Greg.L (16/2/13)

I don't agree with the comments about English cider being a crisp, dry drink - they drink it at room temperature and it is far from "crisp", it isn't meant to be like that. This article reflects the attitude of many in the industry that it is ok to use the 2nd grade stuff and call it craft cider - craft cider is made from apples tree ripened to proper flavour, not picked early like supermarket fruit. It doesn't have to be cider cultivars (though it helps) but it does have to be ripe. It doesn't suit the new entrants to source proper fruit, they may criticise cider from concentrate but cider from the cold store isn't much better.

Saying cider from concentrate is as good as fresh juice is like saying beer from extract is as good as full mash. You can make good beer from extract but it's not like full mash beer. If you try to compare them you are just displaying your own lack of discernment.


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## brettprevans (16/2/13)

Greg.L said:


> I don't agree with the comments about English cider being a crisp, dry drink - they drink it at room temperature and it is far from "crisp", it isn't meant to be like that. This article reflects the attitude of many in the industry that it is ok to use the 2nd grade stuff and call it craft cider - craft cider is made from apples tree ripened to proper flavour, not picked early like supermarket fruit. It doesn't have to be cider cultivars (though it helps) but it does have to be ripe. It doesn't suit the new entrants to source proper fruit, they may criticise cider from concentrate but cider from the cold store isn't much better.
> 
> Saying cider from concentrate is as good as fresh juice is like saying beer from extract is as good as full mash. You can make good beer from extract but it's not like full mash beer. If you try to compare them you are just displaying your own lack of discernment.


i agree there are some issues with the artIcle, like the definition of scrumpy. But they never get things 100% right. They probably did the smallest amount of research possible,

Now in regards to the last part of your post. Your showing your ignorance saying at is better than any other method. Extract in the USA is fresh, cheap and of good quality that's why it's popular there. But I'm not going to start another debate on that old chestnut.

I've tasted and made ciders from fruit growers, wineries and supermarkets and I'm sorry to disappoint you but there's not a lot of difference (IMO). There are different flavours which if you want to equate with quality then fine there's a difference. Now if you think that makes me less discerning in your words then there are a lot of brewers out there gonna be disappointed with their competition feedback from this particular bjcp judge. I haven't tasted a cider (craft breweries incl) that I haven't made just as good cider using bottled juice. I'll grant you that a straight say apple cider from fresh juice v reconstituted (all other variables kept the same) then yes the flavour profile is probably better for some people. However Some will choose the reconstituted version. Just the same as some people like Belgians and other don't. Doesn't mean they are less discerning. 

And for the record I said there's not much difference not that's there's no difference. Would I choose fresh juice over concentrate if there wasn't a huge price difference (eg kellybrook winery charged about $5 per L from memory. The brettC they thrown in for free) then yes I would. But there is a price difference and in my experience the difference in quality isn't worth the money. 

Your welcome to your opinion though.

Edit. Im interested as to why there is more of a diff er rance. Cause I certiably agree theres a big difference whwn drinking the juice (I mean juice not a fermented beverage). So is it something to do with fermentation, method, etc?????


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## drsmurto (16/2/13)

CM2 - have you tasted slow fermented english or french cider?

The ones i have tasted have some amazing flavours which cannot be replicated with long life juice.

The difference being long life juice is not made from cider apples.

I have tasted some wild fermented local ciders that were amazing. I have made cider in the past from long life juice and was disappointed. It always tastes so 1 dimensional, clean, dry and boring.

I bought 40L of freshly pressed, organic apple juice on Thursday for $50. It is from jonothan apples that were picked before they were completely ripe to retain some acidity, sharpness. I have a starter going with the Whitelabs english cider yeast and will be splitting the batch and adding some of the yeast from a bottle of french cider (after building up the cell count) to see if i can get some extra character in. Not cider apples but another step in my cider making journey.


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## brettprevans (16/2/13)

DrSmurto said:


> CM2 - have you tasted slow fermented english or french cider?
> 
> The ones i have tasted have some amazing flavours which cannot be replicated with long life juice.
> 
> ...



no i havent doc. budget doesnt extend that far nor have i ever seen any in aust. 
h,mmm type of apple could be the issue. And slow ferment. Will try and source some better juice and have another trial. 
That's a killer price for juice. I'd pay that every time. 
Thx kindly for the info. Very useful. Manticle is also into cider so ill speak with him about doing some collaborations or at least sourcing and splitting some French ciders so we can sample and make starters.

At least u could write off ur journey into cider as a business expense


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## Greg.L (16/2/13)

CM2, I agree that we are both entitled to our opinion. I can't deny that your opinion is valid for you. However I do feel sorry for you that you can't see any difference in the basic quality of different ciders. I also wonder why you feel the need to voice this opinion so often. With any beverage, there will be people who don't see a great deal of difference between different offerings, possibly that is an advantage because it saves a bit of money. However I think you must agree there are others who see different levels of quality, and like to explore the path of the top quality available.It is all a matter of perspective. However I think you will find wine and beer forums are mainly made up of people who see a benefit in trying to taste the best available, and maybe even emulate it. Unfortunately cider has such a poor reputation that people such as yourself feel free to denigrate those who pursue quality, just because you don't appreciate it yourself. "In my experiance (having done a decent amount of cider making) dont think theres a huge differance in quality between good supermarket juice like the preservitive free stuff from aldi and 'fresh' juice." I wouldn't expect to see those sort of sentiments on a wine or beer forum, but cider seems to be fair game. It's a funny old world.


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## brettprevans (16/2/13)

Why


Greg.L said:


> CM2, I agree that we are both entitled to our opinion. I can't deny that your opinion is valid for you. However I do feel sorry for you that you can't see any difference in the basic quality of different ciders. I also wonder why you feel the need to voice this opinion so often. With any beverage, there will be people who don't see a great deal of difference between different offerings, possibly that is an advantage because it saves a bit of money. However I think you must agree there are others who see different levels of quality, and like to explore the path of the top quality available.It is all a matter of perspective. However I think you will find wine and beer forums are mainly made up of people who see a benefit in trying to taste the best available, and maybe even emulate it. Unfortunately cider has such a poor reputation that people such as yourself feel free to denigrate those who pursue quality, just because you don't appreciate it yourself. "In my experiance (having done a decent amount of cider making) dont think theres a huge differance in quality between good supermarket juice like the preservitive free stuff from aldi and 'fresh' juice." I wouldn't expect to see those sort of sentiments on a wine or beer forum, but cider seems to be fair game. It's a funny old world.


really don't get u. U seem to have missed a heap of points. 
And it's interesting that if I say I don't see a difference means I'm wrong and ur right. 
It's got nothing to do with me not seeing quality. I'm not wasting time effort etc if I can't see a better outcome. 
...sentiments on a wine forum.... Wtf are u on about?! So I say I don't think there's much or a difference based on experience and its stupid thing to say? If u read my posts that explore all sorts of things incl experimentation with ingredients etc and stand up for all methods of brewing and old styles of beverages then you'd know that your statement are misguided. Don't think I've ever expressed this opinion previously but apparently u know what I post better than I. 
At least doc had something to offer. 

Enjoy picking ur fruit and making your cider. I'll leave this 'conversation' at that. 
To those eating their popcorn and watching. Make cider. Not dodgy commercial crap (although if that's ur thing there's at least 4 strongbow cider threads on AHB). And mead. Mead is good.


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## Greg.L (16/2/13)

I never said you were stupid. To give an example, I like scotch and drink it occasionally. I cant see the point of paying a lot of money for a single malt whiskey from some small distillery. I really can't see the difference in quality justifies the price, but I wouldn't dream of going on a whisky forum to express that view, I respect that many people can see the difference that eludes me. However the internet is free, your opinion is valid and you can express it as often as you want.


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## brettprevans (16/2/13)

I think the net is misconstruing our ideas/opinions (or its my crappy one hand typing and lost patience at typing as i busted my wrist today. In fact I'm surprised my spelling isn't as bad as normal). I've always found ur posts to be useful. Lets assume this isn't the right medium to convey these thoughts and move on. I'm all for brewing the best u cam brew with your resources etc so I'm sure we are on the same page. 

If I'm in Bathurst again ill let u know and u can change my mind with some samples of yours. I'm in Canberra in a few weeks but will ost likely be flying so won't be able to do my old scenic driving route up there (which incl Bathurst)


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## hsb (16/2/13)

Good article, thanks.
The small scale Somerset ciders I've been lucky enough to enjoy were made using wooden presses and fermented in wooden barrels and the crab apples used are bitingly sharp. Plenty of 'terroir' about them. What's described in the article, and 99% of cider in the pub here is drain cleaner.


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## Greg.L (17/2/13)

One thing that gets missed in the article is the seasonality of cider. Like wine, craft cider is a seasonal drink, you get one harvest per year and have to make that last all year. Most of the producers in Australia want to make cider all year round so they use concentrate or apples from cold store. You can't make quality cider that way, cold store apples were not fully ripe in the first place and have deteriorated in storage, but because the cider makers have the beer brewers attitude they don't like to wait for the season to come around.


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## Innes (17/2/13)

I don't understand how Australia can be in a cider revival when it has only been in the last few years that cider has become widely available and consumed.

From what I understand, there has never been a large or mainstream cider culture or consumption in Australia and for decades, the only commercial ciders available was the Strongbow varieties.

I don't mine the occasional cider, but what annoys me is when craft beer venues start reducing the number of craft beers available because they dedicate one or more taps to cider. I don't mind them adding taps for cider, but not taking taps away.


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## punkin (18/2/13)

Cider was pretty popular in our crowd when i was a teenager 30 years ago. We used to drink Scrumpy in the flagons.

Cider sort of disapeared, or dwindled to the strongbow only.

I really like cider, but i have gone off it now that it's trendy and usually won't buy it any more.

I resent the space given to it at the bottlo's, as you say at the expense of good beer.


I still make cider once a year from apples. About 60-70l a year, but the roadside trees are looking very good this year, so may up the ante.


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## pk.sax (18/2/13)

I can attest that cider from different (types of) juices tastes a lot different. I'd pick some cheaper cloudy juice over super cheap LL juice any day.

That said, LL juice can make a particular type of cider that is amazingly refreshing and easy to drink. Also, making a cyser, the low flavour profile of the juice really helped the honey shine. That is a quality many like so it's not fair to say its crap or whatever. However, I wouldn't touch most of the commercial ciders out there. They are bland and almost disgusting. One cider brand that I'm thankfully seeing more of on shelves is the napoleon apple and pear cider. Not knowing how its made, it is certainly a flavour exposition that leaves the rest of the readily available crowd behind by many miles. There was another cider that I picked up from the shop not that long ago, some funky new label Aussie cider that was nice to drink... I'd say, some, if not many, cider makers are getting it right.


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## Greg.L (18/2/13)

I think the health lobby will eventually come down hard on the alcopop style of cider brewed from concentrate and sugar, heavily diluted. Hopefully the pure aussie juice ciders will still get WET status but the tax might go up a lot for the alcopop cider. If that happens it might not be so popular in pubs.


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## drsmurto (18/2/13)

Took a bottle of a mates wild fermented cider over the the inlaws last night. Mother in law pulled out a few bottles of a Monteith cider. Tasted like boring, mainstream cider, no character.

I offered her a glass of the cider i was drinking which was cloudy, less carbonated and with a real funky aroma. Her faced screwed up and she pronounced it dodgy headache bootleg cider.

Ah well, more for me. It was made from organic apples, freshly pressed and left to ferment naturally. The mate did a fast ferment test to work out where it would finish and then bottled it 2 SG points higher so it carbed naturally. A very tasty drop.


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## Greg.L (18/2/13)

My cider this year will be very fruity, we have had so much sun the fruit has ripened to very strong flavours. The wine round here will be the same - very ripe and very strong flavours. The last few weeks the temperatures have been mild despite all the sun, so we should avoid those jammy flavours from hot climate fruit. Not a good year for those who like subtle flavours, cool climate reds from NSW will knock your socks off this year.


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## Bizier (19/2/13)

Nothing like the smell of a picking shed full of ripe apples. Most memorable for me is ripe grannies... I have never even seen a ripe granny in the shops.


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## hsb (19/2/13)

I think Bribie G in the Aldi thread is all over those ripe grannies.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/2/13)

I did one last year with over-ripe 2nds Pink Lady apples, juiced and US-05. Man it was rocket fuel, but really nice.

Did a champagne cider with Rocklea Market direct GS & Jonathan before that.

I compared it with the ALDI cider and yeah, much more character - not just the pink lady (though my preference would have been for Granny Smith, but I grabbed what was available), I could put my finger on what else but there was something extra.

The ALDI cider was good - tricked up in CC with a couple kg of frozen raspberries and then kegged to avoid fermentation. Tasty.

TBH - the over-ripeness of the Pink Ladies not only yielded better efficiency, but I reckon it just works. And I was paying 19c/kg, as opposed to around $1 per kg.

This year, now I'm in Tassie, I'll be raiding the trees on the side of the road. I'm not sure how to tell whether they're ready (most trees are now starting to drop apples, so I reckon it's time). Half will be cider with Windsor and half will become apple brandy.

Goomba


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## zomia (4/3/13)

I attended the event at Manly and sampled everything available: which at 20 or so brewers, each with 2-3 drinks, left me pretty sauced! I would echo the former comments in this thread that the majority of commercial ciders do tend towards simplicity and flatness and are obviously not interested in preserving character and complexity. That's to be expected. (My experience outside of Australia includes cider festivals in the UK, plus mainland European export ciders, and US ciders). I am now back in China establishing a commercial operation of my own, and have vowed not to stoop to such depths. People deserve better and are happy to pay for it.


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## Greg.L (4/3/13)

Do the chinese drink cider? They do grow a lot of apples.
I have some himalayan pears growing but not fruiting yet (Pyrus pashia). They are supposed to have some tannin so I think they might make a good perry. If you can find some trees (seeing you are in the himalayas) you should investigate.


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