# Cider Advice



## Haiper (3/1/08)

Hi again all.

Well I put my first batch of lager in the bottles yesterday and was pleasantly surprised at how good it seems to be turning out. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck etc etc. I used carbonation drops so I might go and invert the bottles again today just to make sure it's all mixed as the little lollies were plonking up and down in the bottles even after 4 or 5 inversions yesterday.

My reason for this thread is that I went to my local HBS shop yesterday and bought myself 30 more PET bottles and a can of Blackrock Cider as my wife will actually drink it...hopefully. I'm not a massive beer drinker and she doesn't drink it at all. I'll make a Keineken type of beer later on as I LOVE that.

The lovely lady at the shop said she does 50l batches of Blackrock and loves it. She recommended using white sugar which I went and bought. She reckons it's much better tasting than the usual dextrose/brew sugar. I've read some other threads in here and it seems a 2l bottle of apple juice mixed in is the order of the day so I might shoot down to the shop and pick up a bottle. I'm going to do pop it in the barrel later today or tomorrow (barrel is still sanitising), so any advice from people who have had success with cider would be appreciated. Oh, and I've made a blow off valve because from on here it seems most people have had the foam coming out of the airlock (just like in my first batch of lager, and I don't want that mess again).

Is white sugar fine?
Is putting apple juice in the fermenter tastier than just the straight kit mix?
Optimal temp 20deg?

Cheers all.

B)


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## brettprevans (3/1/08)

do a search for cider and you'll find a heap of cider recipes using tins, all bought juice, all real fruit, combinations of the 2 etc. white sugar/table sugar is fine as it gives a cidery taste anyway when fermented. 

If you use bought juice, use ones that have no preservitives. Fresh will generaly taste better than tins. But I havent brewed a cider yet so I can comment from personal experiance. just what Ive read.


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## phonos (3/1/08)

Hi Haiper,

I've used white sugar in a ginger beer and that turned out fine - I can't imagine it causing any problems with a cider brew either.

I've never tried putting apple juice in a cider, but some people swear by the mixed apple/pear juice. Apparently the pear makes it taste a little more like strongbow cider

20 degrees is a good temperature to use for a cider.

Also, I doubt you'll need the blow off tube for this kit - ciders tend not to ferment particularly quickly - but it doesn't really make much difference what you use to seal your fermenter, your blow off tube will work just as well as a standard s type airlock. Also, since ciders don't ferment quickyl it may be worthwhile checking that the kit comes with some yeast nutrient to make sure it ferments out properly. Its not absolutely necessary, but it helps avoid stuck/slow ferments.

All the best with your brew


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## frogman (3/1/08)

I have made many batches of Blackrock Cider and all have been good.
Have tried using apple juice and apple/pear juice combo's.

Have gone full circle now I just use can with 2kg white sugar.
Made to 20lt.
1 week in primary
1 week in secondary
Chill at 2deg for 24 hours then keg.

Was a great hit on xmas day here with every one who tried it.
It also went down well at the Qld Xmas case swap in early Dec.

Cheers FROGMAN....


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## InCider (3/1/08)

Exactly what Phonos & Citymorgue2 said!

The sugar - whether dextrose or white sugar or even brown sugar all works well. Slight change of taste, but it is VERY hard to wreck a cider. Unless you put malt extract in it, then it is practically a snakebite.

I have used fruit juice as well as a kg of sugar - and that is a lot a fermentables as the juice is full of sugar, so you will want to let it ferment for a *good week or two* at least. Also, I have sliced apples and sat them on the top of the wort, and they float for the whole ferment.

Spices: whack 15 grams of spices to your taste in a hop bag and put it in the wort. Gives your cider a sublte edge.

And the only advice I have is: *Let these bottles sit for a couple of months to have them at their best*. Or make another batch really quickly and store them in the shed so they end up a few months old. Much nicer & smoother.

Frogman makes great cider, so you may want to send him a PM for his Blackrock recipes. (and beat me to the post! - Nice one  )

Cheers,

InCider.


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## Haiper (3/1/08)

Cheers all.

Frogman, if I pop in 2lt of apple juice, what do you recommend in terms of sugar?? 2kg?? or lower it due to the sugar in the juice?? I was told by the HBS lady to use 2kg to a tin.

Wife just brought me home 2lt of nice clean apple juice so I'm itching to get this lot churning over.


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## 0M39A (3/1/08)

i made up a blackrock cider last year.

was the can, 4lt of apple + pear juice (preservative free) and 1kg of sugar.

turned out that dry it wasnt funny and had hardly any apple cider taste to it. 

sorry to piss on your parade, but i doubt i'll make it again. was a real shame, as it tasted awesome in the carboy.


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## axl (3/1/08)

I use the blackrock cider kits as well.

I use 2kgs of white sugar. 2 ltrs of Apple & Pear juice (Just Juice or Berri) + 1 ltr of rasberry 90% fruit juice cordial (no preservatives). 

Bloody nice drop. I start drinking it the following day after chilling, kegging & filtering. Comes out crystal clear too.

A favourite all around.


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## Haiper (4/1/08)

OK, she's in. 

1 x Blackrock Cider kit
2lt rain water
2kg white sugar

Heated water in stainless steel boiler until nearly boiling then added kit and sugar and stirred in.

Popped mix into fermenter then added the 2lt of juice and 19lt of rain water from the tank.

Temp was sitting sweet on 24deg so in went the yeast pack from the kit and sealed up with a blow off tube running into a clean 600ml coke bottle.

It's currently in the coolest part of the house I can find and sitting pretty at 20deg, so we'll see what happens.

 

Thanks for the advice all.


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## NRB (4/1/08)

Having never used rainwater for brewing, is it standard practice to add without boiling/sanitising? Municipal water has been treated with chlorine/chloramine to help reduce the number of microorganisms. I still carbon filter and boil any "top up" addition that needs to be made (thankfully incredibly rarely).

Am I being too anal?


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## frogman (5/1/08)

NRB said:


> Having never used rainwater for brewing, is it standard practice to add without boiling/sanitising? Municipal water has been treated with chlorine/chloramine to help reduce the number of microorganisms. I still carbon filter and boil any "top up" addition that needs to be made (thankfully incredibly rarely).
> 
> Am I being too anal?



I think you could be right on the money there.
I filter all my tap water before use.
Have a mate who uses tank water and his beers are dam near undrinkable.
Would suggest boiling and cooling tank water before use.

FROGMAN...


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## Ross (5/1/08)

Haiper,

As others have said, using (untreated) tank water is a big no no. You may be lucky (hope you are), but having lost many a brew in my early days to the exact same problem, i'd never use untreated tank water. It needs to be boiled, or some use a campden tablet - personally, when making kit brews, I used to bring home 30l from friends homes who were on mains water, for brewing.

Cheers Ross


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## Haiper (5/1/08)

Hmmmm, thanks for the heads up. My first lager looks like it might be a winner though, so I'll have to see. Where I am we can't drink the tap water (east coast of Tas [may as well be a third world country not being able to drink the tap water]), 4 bouts of gastro in 2 years is proof of that.

I'll give the rain water a crack in the cider and see what gives. The tank is brand new and only been set up a couple of months so the water coming out of it is bloody beautiful and clear to drink. If this batch goes tits up, I'll reassess. Thanks for the heads up....you've just given me a nervous two week wait...haha, just kidding. :huh:


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## 0M39A (6/1/08)

Haiper said:


> Hmmmm, thanks for the heads up. My first lager looks like it might be a winner though, so I'll have to see. Where I am we can't drink the tap water (east coast of Tas [may as well be a third world country not being able to drink the tap water]), 4 bouts of gastro in 2 years is proof of that.
> 
> I'll give the rain water a crack in the cider and see what gives. The tank is brand new and only been set up a couple of months so the water coming out of it is bloody beautiful and clear to drink. If this batch goes tits up, I'll reassess. Thanks for the heads up....you've just given me a nervous two week wait...haha, just kidding. :huh:



i'm in burnie, and we're on tank water. never had a problem brewing with it that i can directly attributable to the water. we have a filter attached to the pump though. tastes fantastic


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## Haiper (6/1/08)

0M39A said:


> tank water.....tastes fantastic



Amen to that brother.


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## Sammus (6/1/08)

I was hoping to use 20L+ of real apple juice with a Wyeast Cider yeast, no cans or anything. Any advice on a good place to get bulk apple juice? Just checked the supermarket fridge, and it looks like its $5+ for 2L of 100% preservative free anything juice - not sure if I want to drop $55 on my first cider attempt


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## Tyred (6/1/08)

Not too sure about bulk apple juice. 

I've noticed Aldi has apple juice 2L for around $1.99 most of the time. You may be able to do better when shops have it special.


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## Haiper (6/1/08)

Sammus said:


> I was hoping to use 20L+ of real apple juice with a Wyeast Cider yeast, no cans or anything. Any advice on a good place to get bulk apple juice? Just checked the supermarket fridge, and it looks like its $5+ for 2L of 100% preservative free anything juice - not sure if I want to drop $55 on my first cider attempt



If this cider turns out well, I'm really keen to make a press and make my own juice. If you live near any apple orchards, you could approach the owner and ask to pick up some of the windblown apples out of the rows, most wouldn't mind I'm sure (I grew up working in orchards, it's where apple juice comes from anyway, the apples off the ground). Other than that, try buying some apples off the side of the road cheap or just get them from the supermarket on special.

I've seen some awesome simple presses made from hydraulic jacks and cheesecloth with a collection tray underneath. I reckon I could knock one up in an afternoon. The first step though is to pulverise the apples. Your choice how you want to do that. There's some good youtube stuff on pressing fruit.

Another idea is to appraock some of the larger juice manufacturers and ask them if they ever have any left over juice from batches. I know most leftovers after a run go into home brand type bottles for sale but you never know your luck, they might be able to point you in the right direction.

Also, if you have a home juicer, you could plough through some bags of apples (whatever variety you like), and then strain the result through some cheesecloth or similar (it will be cloudy though). Those juicers are pretty awesome at getting the most amount of juice out of something. I reckon you could get a litre of juice out of an old stick with one.


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## 0M39A (7/1/08)

one thing to keep in mind is that its pretty recognized that the best yeast for fermenting an apple cider, is the yeast thats on the skin of the apples themselves.


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## brettprevans (7/1/08)

Sammus said:


> I was hoping to use 20L+ of real apple juice with a Wyeast Cider yeast, no cans or anything. Any advice on a good place to get bulk apple juice? Just checked the supermarket fridge, and it looks like its $5+ for 2L of 100% preservative free anything juice - not sure if I want to drop $55 on my first cider attempt


20L of juice will ferment out to a fairly high %alc I would think because its mostly sugar. most cider and lemonade receipes ive seen only call for a little bit of juice for flavour and alc. Im trying to find the last thread I read on AHB with juice receipes. I would think you would only want 10L of juice and 10L water. but of course fresh would be best in that case.


EDIT: strike that, I found the link I was looking for and Im wrong (raspberry cyser thread). still it would be nice to know what the % would be before you breww it so you can adjust accordingly


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## tcraig20 (7/1/08)

Sammus said:


> I was hoping to use 20L+ of real apple juice with a Wyeast Cider yeast, no cans or anything. Any advice on a good place to get bulk apple juice? Just checked the supermarket fridge, and it looks like its $5+ for 2L of 100% preservative free anything juice - not sure if I want to drop $55 on my first cider attempt



Ive got a cider on at the moment. At woolworths there are 4 litre bottles of preservative free juice for $4 each. $20 for 20 litres. 

Had a little taste of it when I took my OG, tasted fine, but we'll see how it looks once its fermented out. Recipe was 12 litres apple/pear (55%/45% I think), and 8 litres of apple.


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## drsmurto (7/1/08)

Sammus said:


> I was hoping to use 20L+ of real apple juice with a Wyeast Cider yeast, no cans or anything. Any advice on a good place to get bulk apple juice? Just checked the supermarket fridge, and it looks like its $5+ for 2L of 100% preservative free anything juice - not sure if I want to drop $55 on my first cider attempt



Use the Berri preservative free stuff off the shelf. On special is around $1/L. And since you are using juice the trub after ferment is nice white yeast that you can wash and re-use or just dump another batch of juice on!




citymorgue2 said:


> 20L of juice will ferment out to a fairly high %alc I would think because its mostly sugar. most cider and lemonade receipes ive seen only call for a little bit of juice for flavour and alc. Im trying to find the last thread I read on AHB with juice receipes. I would think you would only want 10L of juice and 10L water. but of course fresh would be best in that case.
> EDIT: strike that, I found the link I was looking for and Im wrong (raspberry cyser thread). still it would be nice to know what the % would be before you breww it so you can adjust accordingly



Apple juice has an SG of around 1.046-8. So its not going to produce rocket fuel even if you ferment it down to 1.000 with a champagne yeast. Even then its only around 6.5%. Using the wyeast cider yeast i ended up with 1.010 from 1.048 - 4.9%.


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## barls (7/1/08)

most of the juice i use ends up being around the 1040 sg and thats pure juice


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## axl (7/1/08)

What about the sweetness/dryness factor & overall flavour in 100% juice cider?


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## Tyred (7/1/08)

Sweetness/dryness is dependant on the yeast. Champagne/wine yeast can lead to a very dry cider. Cider yeast (I believe) can lead you to a sweeter one. I haven't used cider yeast so I'm not too sure on that.

From the ciders I've made, there is still quite a strong apple flavour with some sweetness, but then I've been adding honey to mine (making them like a cyser than a cider).


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## Sammus (7/1/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Use the Berri preservative free stuff off the shelf. On special is around $1/L. And since you are using juice the trub after ferment is nice white yeast that you can wash and re-use or just dump another batch of juice on!



Do you know if that is reconstituted or not?


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## drsmurto (8/1/08)

dunno about that, will read the bottle next time i am near one. 

I have an apple tree that noone can identify. From the history of the place its likely to be more than 70 years old (up to maybe 100) and is a variety that isnt grown commercially. I am suspecting its an old english variety and more suited to juicing for cider than the 2 granny smiths.

Anyone know how to identify apples? and if some of the apples have codlin moths in them can i cut them out and still use the juice? I would treat thejuice first with sodium or potassium metabisulphite to kill off the wild yeast and then whack in the wyeast cider.

My all juice cider with the cider yeast started off beautifully but is slowly turning to a wine? I think its the lemons i added. Its not real dry tho, it finished at 1.010 but next time i will leave out all the additions and go straight juice and the yeast. I tasted the cider Tangent made this way and its was nice and way too easy to drink!

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. FWIW i tried a mates cider he made using a tin of goop. He subbed 3L of water for apple juice and its not too bad at all. Might have been the fact i have spent nearly 5 hours on the golf course sweating my arse off but it hit the spot.


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## Wrenny (8/1/08)

I tasted frogmans cider at the xmas swap and confirm that it is delicious.

A question, though, for anyone. Do you boil the juice, or is a pretty sterile out of the bottle?

Cheers,
Wrenny


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## drsmurto (8/1/08)

Its already been done for you in the bottle.


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## Haiper (10/1/08)

Well it's been in for a week now at a steady 20-21deg and stopped bubbling so I gave it a try just to see how it was going. VERY sweet. Could be something to do with the 2kg of sugar I was advised to put in. Any suggestions for reducing the sweetness of the cider?? Is there some additive I could perhaps add or is it all over bar for the bottling?? I was also advised to put in 2 teaspoons of sugar to each bottle to make it "fizzier". I reckon I'll only pop in one teaspoon. Will this then only add to the current sweetness?? I prefer a dry cider as opposed to a sweet one. Then again, I'll drink any cider. :icon_drunk: 

Any suggestions for reduction of sweetness at this stage?? or am I stuck with what I've got? I'm going to leave it another 4 or 5 days then bottle it up I reckon.


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## brettprevans (10/1/08)

throw in some champagine yeast to dry it out. if theres any sugar left to ferment that is.


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## tangent (10/1/08)

let it ferment out it hasn't finished.
the best ciders I've made were 100% apple juice, no added anything apart from wyeast nutrient and wyeast cider yeast.


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## drsmurto (10/1/08)

Haiper said:


> Well it's been in for a week now at a steady 20-21deg and stopped bubbling so I gave it a try just to see how it was going. VERY sweet. Could be something to do with the 2kg of sugar I was advised to put in. Any suggestions for reducing the sweetness of the cider?? Is there some additive I could perhaps add or is it all over bar for the bottling?? I was also advised to put in 2 teaspoons of sugar to each bottle to make it "fizzier". I reckon I'll only pop in one teaspoon. Will this then only add to the current sweetness?? I prefer a dry cider as opposed to a sweet one. Then again, I'll drink any cider. :icon_drunk:
> 
> Any suggestions for reduction of sweetness at this stage?? or am I stuck with what I've got? I'm going to leave it another 4 or 5 days then bottle it up I reckon.



The sweetness is due to the artificial sweeteners in the tin (or at least i assume they contain them, most do). The extra sugar is there to up the alcohol. No way to reduce the sweetness now. Next time, if you want a dry cider, just use apple juice and a yeast.


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## tangent (10/1/08)

you should be able to pick the horrible chemical taste of saccharine, if that's what it is. that awful diet-coke taste. nothing you can do about that other than try to mask it with a worse flavour.


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## Haiper (10/1/08)

tangent said:


> you should be able to pick the horrible chemical taste of saccharine, if that's what it is. that awful diet-coke taste. nothing you can do about that other than try to mask it with a worse flavour.



It's not a horrible saccharine taste. It actually tastes great, it's just quite sweet.


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## 0M39A (10/1/08)

well the obvious question then is "has it finished fermenting"

the only answer you will get is to whip out your hydrometer and check the SG reading.

the blackrock cider can i did with 4L of apple/pear juice and near enough to 2kg of sugar took nearly a month to ferment out totally, and was very very dry. also, i agree that it could do with a bit more priming sugar than normal. i primed to (i think) 160g of sugar to the 23L batch and i think it could have done with a little more.


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## NRB (10/1/08)

I second the "check the SG" advice. Don't base degree of fermentation by time or CO2 egress. As I've said time and time again, your hydrometer is your friend. Get to know it, continue to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if fermentation still has a bit to go. Don't rush things!


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## SJW (10/1/08)

2 kgs of sugar WOW. I have the Blackrock Cider fermenting now with 1 kg of sugar madde up to 19 litres and it had a OG of 1.044. I reckon your going to have a pantie dropper there if if ferments right out. My advise is, if u keg, to keep tasting until the desired amount of sweetness is tleft the crash cool, filter and keg.
I would not make this one up with 2kg's of sugar, but thats me.


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## drsmurto (10/1/08)

Are we 100% certain the black rock tin contains no artificial sweeteners? I recall seeing them on the side of a cider tin before - look for sucralose and aspartame in the ingredient list......

EDIT - stupid sausage fingers....


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## tangent (10/1/08)

usually they include it as a suspicious package labelled "sweetener" under the lid.


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## SJW (10/1/08)

My blackrock tin did not have anything other than yeast under the lid. I do remember reading on the front of the label that the ingredients was 100% Apples though.


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## Haiper (10/1/08)

SJW said:


> My blackrock tin did not have anything other than yeast under the lid. I do remember reading on the front of the label that the ingredients was 100% Apples though.



From memory that's what mine said too. I didn't read the fine print though and most manufacturers can't resist putting muck of some form or another in their produce.

I'll do a hydrometer reading tonight. I really want to leave it for quite a while but it's just so tasty looking and I'm sure I heard the airlock burp that I should substitute the keg with my belly. I'll leave it for at least another week. :icon_cheers:


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## frasertag (10/1/08)

Hey Fellas

I brew a few ciders, however the ciders i brew are to dry for the mrs and she has to mix 20% applejuice to my brew to make it sweet and drinkable

I usually use a Blackrock kit or a brigalow kit (cheap and nasssttyy)

2L of Apple Juice, I prefer cloudy for some reason.. doesnt come out nice and clear though.
1.5kg of raw sugar. 

Ferment 2weeks
Rack for a 3-4days
bottle

Anyways i was reading lastnight about Oztops i have looked at them in the brew shop and really starting to think ill try it... only thing that is putting me off is it says. 
After two days you can chill it (stop fermentation) and then 24hours later test it, if its too sweet warm it back up to 20-24deg and it will continue fermenting. then chill again and test. 

I can see a bonus to this, i can brew a couple of ciders without using my fermenter.
I can pop one in the fridge early to make it sweet
and another later to make it dry.

However
I was told and this is the bit that worries me all the yeast within it, and as i got towards the bottom i will drink it and it will warm up in my belly and it will continue to ferment in my stomach? is this just a myth?


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## axl (10/1/08)

It'll need another week in the fermenter. Wait till your final gravity is down to about 1.010. It will also dry out flavourwise by then. 
From my experience with this yeast it does slow down dramatically after a week but don't be fooled (Ignore the air lock it is probably still fermenting away) 
My guess it your gravity is still around about the 1.020 mark. 
One more week and it should be right.


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## Tyred (10/1/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Are we 100% certain the black rock tin contains no artificial sweeteners?



From memory,I'm pretty sure that the ingredients are apple juice concentrate and yeast for the black rock cider. I think that the brigalow kit has artificial sweeteners in it.

Most of the apple juice bought in stores is made up from apple juice concentrate. I think the juice that doesn't is called pure and is normally cloudy. Although I have seen filtered pure apple juice.


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## paulc (11/1/08)

I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned OzTops.
Make nice small quantities (i make 2Lt at a time) of cider with nothing but apple juice and champaign yeast.
Ferments in a PET softdrink bottle.
Tastes fantastic!!


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## frasertag (11/1/08)

paulc said:


> I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned OzTops.
> Make nice small quantities (i make 2Lt at a time) of cider with nothing but apple juice and champaign yeast.
> Ferments in a PET softdrink bottle.
> Tastes fantastic!!



Post 43 i mentioned something about oztops but noone replied about it


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## limebouquet (8/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> dunno about that, will read the bottle next time i am near one.
> 
> I have an apple tree that noone can identify. From the history of the place its likely to be more than 70 years old (up to maybe 100) and is a variety that isnt grown commercially. I am suspecting its an old english variety and more suited to juicing for cider than the 2 granny smiths.
> 
> ...



What is thr rub on the moth issue please anyone?
I have 2 trees of apples I suspect are good for cider but every crop has moths.( plus heaps of other neglected trees about the neighbour hood begging to be cidered.) Can I just juice 'em, or will bits of bugs cause food poisoning or something?


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