# Protein Rest



## Hashie (24/4/08)

Just a quick question, what is the best temperature for doing a protein rest? And for how long?

I've done the last 2 brews at 50 Deg. for 30 minutes.

Any advice will be appreciated.


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## blackbock (24/4/08)

Somewhere in the range 50-52C is a good compromise. I never do longer than about 20 mins though. 30 sounds like it's going to make a brewday just that bit longer


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## Hashie (24/4/08)

Thanks BB, I'll give 20 minutes a run tomorrow when I do an Anzac Amber Ale


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## peas_and_corn (24/4/08)

I personally don't really do a protein rest... what are the advantages, and should I do one??


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## Zwickel (24/4/08)

blackbock said:


> Somewhere in the range 50-52C is a good compromise. I never do longer than about 20 mins though. 30 sounds like it's going to make a brewday just that bit longer


+1 am doing 20min at 52C :icon_cheers:


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## Tony (24/4/08)

52 deg for 20 min here.......... every brew.

Mash in at 2l/kg at 52 deg and infuse with boiling water to desired mash temp which brings you up to 2.8 - 3.2 l/kg depending on mash temp.

usually mash around 65 which gives me around 3 L/kg which is perfect.

I do it for pilsners to stouts.......... it gives me a cleaner clearer beer with courser break thats easier to remove form the cooled wort.

And IMO........ better head retention!

cheers


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## Zwickel (24/4/08)

peas_and_corn said:


> ... what are the advantages, and should I do one??


advantages: at 52C many amino acids are built, its important for the yeast growth (might be not so important for top fermenting yeasts, but very important for bottom fermenting yeasts like for Pilsener or Lager beers).

Better head retention, because the long chained proteins get cracked into shorter molecules.


Cheers :icon_cheers:


uuuups....Tony has been faster...


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## warrenlw63 (24/4/08)

55 for 20 mins.  

Warren -


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## Tony (24/4/08)

Zwickel said:


> uuuups....Tony has been faster...




I think its ooooops?

and its the warmer weather mate......... my fingers move faster....... especially seing im standing beside a boiling kettle of ESB while typing 

cheers


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## bindi (24/4/08)

Zwickel said:


> +1 am doing 20min at 52C :icon_cheers:




+2 0r is that 3? The last brew was my first in yonks for a non 52c rest [lazy  ], I think it was an easy only 2 steps.


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## kabooby (25/4/08)

I do a rest at 50C. For about 20 mins. Sometimes longer depends how long it takes me to get my water up to temp for the infusion.

For me its just as easy as doing a single infusion. My hot water from the tap comes out at 55C so I can put it straight into the mash tun. That way I dont have to heat up as much water for the next infusion and all this is done in the time it would take to heat your water for a single infusion anyway.

Kabooby


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## Hogan (25/4/08)

My understanding was that the protein rest was only implemented when using under modified base malt and that using the rest with fully modified malt, which most malts are these days, leads to a significant reduction in the body. The German malts in the past were less modified but I believe that that is now not the case and that nearly all the worlds base malts are classed as 'fully modified'. 

Having said that, I don't use the rest on aussie malt but I am considering giving it a go with the Weyerman Premium pilsner I just got. I am assuming that with the pilsner experience and the local malt knowledge that Zwickel has that he may put paid to the well modified -v- under modified claims where the protein rest is concerned.

Cheers, Hoges.


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## Hashie (25/4/08)

I did a 51 deg rest for 20 minutes this morning, followed by mash at 65 and mash out at 77, all should be good.

The previous 2 brews I did at 50 for 30 minutes + mash and mash out, came out with 78.5% efficiency according to Beersmith. Gotta be happy with that.

Does the protein rest affect Efficiency? Or is it just to break the long chain molecules into short, as Zwickel has said?

Hogan, I'm using Powell's malts which are under modified and do need a protein rest.


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## Tony (25/4/08)

I get 5% more efficiency with a protein rest. Dont know why but i do.

I think because the proteins and starches are broken down the enzymes work better.

Thats as technical as i can get on that 

cheers


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## Zwickel (25/4/08)

Hogan, what you said is correct, also for the German malt. Theoretically you dont need the protein rest, but.....

it is uncontested, that the amino acids gives a boost to the yeast growth, that is very important for bottom fermenting yeasts to get a high attenuation for a dry and crispy Pilsener.
Also the head retention is influenced by a protein rest.

In countries like America, England and Australia Ive seen that a great head (in Pubs) is basically unwanted. Mostly the glasses get filled fast and almost without any head.
Not so here in Germany. A glass of beer without a head would get refused immediately from the customers.

Despite of the knowledge about well modified malts, here in Germany a protein rest is obligatory.


Cheers :beer:


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## Hogan (25/4/08)

Zwickel said:


> Hogan, what you said is correct, also for the German malt. Theoretically you dont need the protein rest, but.....
> 
> it is uncontested, that the amino acids gives a boost to the yeast growth, that is very important for bottom fermenting yeasts to get a high attenuation for a dry and crispy Pilsener.
> Also the head retention is influenced by a protein rest.
> ...



Thanks Zwickel - I'm am always ready to follow the path of experience and as I am always looking for ways to improve my pilsner I will give the protein rest a run on the Weyerman malt.

Cheers, Hoges.


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## T.D. (25/6/08)

Hi all,

Thought I'd just add my query re protein rests to this thread rather than starting another.

In a recent English Bitter I did an "unintentional/involuntary protein rest". Basically missed my mash temp majorly in the negative direction and in my furious attempts to get the mash up to my desired temp, spent around 15mins at the lower temp.

My question relates to the final gravity of a brew that uses a protein rest. My bitter is currently sitting at 1.006 in the fermenter and there still seems to be a small amount of airlock activity! Not happy about it I must say as the low FG has eaten away a lot of the malt body and has also accentuated the bitterness. Samples taken at around 1.012 tasted great in comparison.

So would a protein rest give me that much extra attenuation? I presume there is some kind of relationship there because a lower mash temp will give better attenuation and the 15mins at mid-50s will have to have some effect. 

The other dreaded explanation is that I have some kind of infection. This ferment has behaved a little strangely - took a while to kick off (first pitch from the Wyeast smack pack - British Ale II) then went gangbusters and then slowed to a constant "blurp" every couple of minutes since. The krausen also took a long time to subside and even now (almost 2 weeks later) its still kind of there.

Anyway, any pointers from those who do step mashes often would be greatly appreciated! :beer:


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## BoilerBoy (25/6/08)

I always do a protein rest and haven't found that much difference with attenuation. 
However, without knowing your OG, don't discount the impact of the Brit II yeast (1335 from memory?) I have found it very dry and crisp, though its listed as a British strain its lack of fruitiness IMHO is more suited to APA's

Cheers,
BB


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## T.D. (25/6/08)

The attenuation stats don't seem much different to Wyeast London Ale or British Ale yeasts though, which is why I am a bit baffled. But it is starting to sound like it could be a pretty dry and crisp yeast so maybe that is the cause.

By the way, my OG was 1.040. Not particularly high.


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## rich_lamb (25/6/08)

Once you get into the mid 50's (allowing for possibly a few minutes even higher?) you are in saccarification territory, and this would give more attenuation.

The protein rest around 50 should have some overlap with a glucanase rest - used to be "acid" rest -in the 40's, which would give a bit more efficiency. I occasionally use the rest about 40 and have noticed a few points of efficiency, though my set up throws most of it away anyhow.

What I'm most interested in is the head retention- I've always been told that breaking down larger proteins REDUCES the head retention, but Zwikel is saying the opposite?
(I've avoided protein rests, except maybe in wheat beers, for this reason alone)
?


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## warrenlw63 (25/6/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> What I'm most interested in is the head retention- I've always been told that breaking down larger proteins REDUCES the head retention, but Zwikel is saying the opposite?
> (I've avoided protein rests, except maybe in wheat beers, for this reason alone)
> ?



I agree with Zwickel. Since I've been incorporating protein rests the head retention on my beers has improved markedly. To me they always seem shorter and more "dense" than the beers I was getting with single temp rests.

Warren -


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## BoilerBoy (25/6/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> What I'm most interested in is the head retention- I've always been told that breaking down larger proteins REDUCES the head retention, but Zwikel is saying the opposite?
> (I've avoided protein rests, except maybe in wheat beers, for this reason alone)
> ?



I have heard this many times as well, but I can definitely say this has not been my experience at all, dense fluffy heads that lace the glass all the way down even without carapils and adjuncts added.

Cheers
BB


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## T.D. (25/6/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Once you get into the mid 50's (allowing for possibly a few minutes even higher?) you are in saccarification territory, and this would give more attenuation.
> 
> The protein rest around 50 should have some overlap with a glucanase rest - used to be "acid" rest -in the 40's, which would give a bit more efficiency. I occasionally use the rest about 40 and have noticed a few points of efficiency, though my set up throws most of it away anyhow.



This is very interesting. I've been brewing AG for many many years but never looked into step mashing that much. Because my initial mash temp was around 57 degrees, which from what you're saying is more likely to promote increased attenuation, whereas a rest temp of around 50 degrees is going to act as a proper protein rest. Its all starting to make sense now. Sounds like my weirdo mash schedule may be to blame. 

There's hope for this British Ale II yeast yet! :lol:


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## blackbock (25/6/08)

T.D. said:


> This is very interesting. I've been brewing AG for many many years but never looked into step mashing that much. Because my initial mash temp was around 57 degrees, which from what you're saying is more likely to promote increased attenuation, whereas a rest temp of around 50 degrees is going to act as a proper protein rest. Its all starting to make sense now. Sounds like my weirdo mash schedule may be to blame.
> 
> There's hope for this British Ale II yeast yet! :lol:



I would say that 57 degrees is definitely above where most people would perform protein-rests, almost certainly into the beta amylase territory. It's always an interesting exercise when you don't quite hit the right mash temperatures - sometimes it can give a result you like, and wouldn't otherwise have tried. 

I will echo what Devo and Boilerboy report on head formation: If anything it seems to improve retention for me.


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## pmolou (25/6/08)

can you protein rest @ 40c or is this for some other rest iv heard of 40c from somewhere so just clarifying


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## Zwickel (25/6/08)

pmolou said:


> can you protein rest @ 40c or is this for some other rest iv heard of 40c from somewhere so just clarifying


from 40 to 45C the ferulic acid rest is held. At this temp the ferulic acid (a prestage of 4-Vinylguajacol) will be build, that gives the Weizen beer that unique arome, some like clove and banana. Im doing it for about 20min with all of my Weizen beers.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## SJW (25/6/08)

I have also started doing protein rests for all my Lagers. The CAP I did on Saturday was rested for 20mins at 52. Even though there was only 70g of Saaz in thr boil (the rest was mash hopped) there was a huge amount of trube left after draining. I suspect the protein rest has something to do with this so I am expecting a good result at the tap.

Steve


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## goatherder (25/6/08)

I made a CAP on Saturday too Steve. I noticed a crapload of trub also. I didn't protein rest mine so I put the excess trub down to the flaked maize. Did you use flaked maize or some other adjuct?


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## SJW (25/6/08)

I went way hard with the flaked maize on this one, probably why I got my first stuck sparge, that and all the hops in the mash. To tell u the truth I like rice in my CAPS rather than Maize. But I have a few kg's left to use up. Maybe an ESB should be on the cards.

#65 Classic American Pils 

Batch Size: 28.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 35.90 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg + starter 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3000.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 44.78 % 
2000.00 gm Maize, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 29.85 % 
1000.00 gm Premium Pilsner (Weyermann) (2.2 EBC) Grain 14.93 % 
700.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 10.45 % 
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 24.5 IBU 
160.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 5.6 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.42 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 % 
Bitterness: 30.1 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 8.6 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 6700.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 22.61 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Double Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
20 min Protein Rest Add 10.00 L of water at 61.4 C 52.0 C 
60 min Saccrification Add 10.00 L of water at 88.1 C 68.0 C


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## gap (11/7/08)

buttersd70 said:


> from http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php...eory_of_Mashing
> 
> 
> 
> I would be interested to hear the thoughts on protein rests from someone that extensively brews english styles with a big, thick, head that a Yorkshireman would be proud of. (as this is my preferred style, and all good Yorkies such as myself are complete head Nazis.)



I do not do one for English Ales using Marris Otter or Golden Promise, just a single infusion mash.

Regards

Graeme


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## /// (11/7/08)

buttersd70 said:


> I would be interested to hear the thoughts on protein rests from someone that extensively brews english styles with a big, thick, head that a Yorkshireman would be proud of. (as this is my preferred style, and all good Yorkies such as myself are complete head Nazis.)



Um - i use good malt - no need for such wasted middle european adventures! To MO or not MO, that is the question!

Scotty - ye who holds a grist book from a yorkshire brewery long gone, whose equipment now makes Black Sheep.


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## fraser_john (11/7/08)

I have never done a protein rest, but was going to do my first ever decoction on my hefe this weekend. So I am guessing its OK to dough in, rest for 20 min at 50c, in the meantime having pulled a certain amount (/14 to 1/3?) of the mash and boil it for that 20 minutes and add it back to get to sach temps?


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## SJW (11/7/08)

> I have never done a protein rest, but was going to do my first ever decoction on my hefe this weekend. So I am guessing its OK to dough in, rest for 20 min at 50c, in the meantime having pulled a certain amount (/14 to 1/3?) of the mash and boil it for that 20 minutes and add it back to get to sach temps?


Make sure you rest the decoction at 65 deg C for 20mins or so prior to boiling. I am doing my first decoction on saturday, a Dortmunder. I will mash in for 52 deg C rest and then after 15 mins pull out a 1/3 decoction, raise the temp to 65 for 20 mins then boil for 1/2 hour. Add back to mash for a 65 deg C infusion and rest that for 30 mins, then pull out another 1/3 for a mash out decoction. Should be fun.

Steve


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## chris.taylor.98 (12/7/08)

Thanks all, got to this thread the night before I had a go at my first German Pilsner.

Have been struggling hitting efficiencies lately, but this time with the protein rest (52C for 20 mins) resulted in %80 efficiency.


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