# Candi Sygar V's Table (beet) Sugar



## gibbocore (18/8/08)

Hi All, 

I've been scouring the site and reading all to be said about plain sugar and table sugar and after listening to the pod cast about al lthe sugars used in a belgian blonde on the brew show, i've come to a conclusion and would like some clarification on my clarifications ^_^ 

What i gather is that clear candi sugar (or invert) wont offer any taste differences and the reasons behind using candi sugar is for colour and toffee flavours from the amber and dark candi's.

So in short for my duvel clone, should normal table sugar suffice and would i benefit at all from making clear invert sugar?

Cheers.


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## buttersd70 (18/8/08)

Invert sugar is the way to go. The main reason is that invert sugar is a mixture of glucose and fructose, wheras table sugar is glucose and fructose with a bond between them. The belgians use invert to boost the OG without producing off flavours from the yeast having to break the bond in the sucrose.

You can make your own invert sugar with a bit of time, a thermometer, and citric acid....there are a few methodologies on the web, if you google it. (or if you don't want to bother, just buy kandi sugar.)

EDIT: I have never used it, so don't know whether it would suffice, but Lyles brand golden syrup is a liquid inverse sugar.


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## kook (18/8/08)

buttersd70 said:


> You can make your own invert sugar with a bit of time, a thermometer, and citric acid....there are a few methodologies on the web, if you google it. (or if you don't want to bother, just buy kandi sugar.)



Actually - using those methods at home only results in a very slight level of hydrolysis. I think you're better off letting the yeast do it.


edit - Just noticed this: 

"The belgians use invert to boost the OG without producing off flavours from the yeast having to break the bond in the sucrose"

Which Belgian brewers use fully (95%+) inverted sugar to boost OG?


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## kook (18/8/08)

gibbocore said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been scouring the site and reading all to be said about plain sugar and table sugar and after listening to the pod cast about al lthe sugars used in a belgian blonde on the brew show, i've come to a conclusion and would like some clarification on my clarifications ^_^
> 
> ...



Personally, for pale Belgian beers I simply use white sugar. I don't see the sense in wasting money on the rock candy sold in stores, as its not fully inverted anyway.

For dark Belgian beers however I like to use candi syrup, which is essentially a byproduct of beet sugar processing. It tastes similar to molasses - very rummy.


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## warrenlw63 (18/8/08)

Aug 18 2008 said:


> So in short for my duvel clone, should normal table sugar suffice and would i benefit at all from making clear invert sugar?






Aug 18 2008 said:


> Invert sugar is the way to go. The main reason is that invert sugar is a mixture of glucose and fructose, wheras table sugar is glucose and fructose with a bond between them. The belgians use invert to boost the OG without producing off flavours from the yeast having to break the bond in the sucrose.
> 
> You can make your own invert sugar with a bit of time, a thermometer, and citric acid....there are a few methodologies on the web, if you google it. (or if you don't want to bother, just buy kandi sugar.)
> 
> EDIT: I have never used it, so don't know whether it would suffice, but Lyles brand golden syrup is a liquid inverse sugar.



Or you could save yourself some time and effort and just use plain old dextrose like Moortgat supposedly do. Available at all good HB stores.  

Either method should give you a good beer.

Warren -


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## wrangler (18/8/08)

I don't think I've ever seen so many "suga" threads at the one time. Butters must be close on needing a fresh pair of underwear!


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## gibbocore (18/8/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Or you could save yourself some time and effort and just use plain old dextrose like Moortgat supposedly do. Available at all good HB stores.
> 
> Either method should give you a good beer.
> 
> Warren -


Now i'm intrigued, dex hey. Didn't even think of that.


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## warrenlw63 (18/8/08)

gibbocore

If you're seriously making a lot of Belgian beers I suggest reading "Brew Like a Monk".

Really top read, also where I gleaned my info.  

Warren -


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## gibbocore (18/8/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> gibbocore
> 
> If you're seriously making a lot of Belgian beers I suggest reading "Brew Like a Monk".
> 
> ...


 
I _want_ to seriously make a lot of belgians, so i should probably grab a copy.

Cheers. :icon_cheers:

edit: just bought it along with palmers HTB, i should read the whole thing, might save half the questions i seem to ask, thanks amazon.


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## Rod (19/8/08)

I have made my own candy sugar to a honey colour 

and find it makes a difference 

especially when the brew ages , say 6 months 

worth the effort


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## jojai (19/8/08)

Just to clarify there Rod, you made the same or similar recipe with both homemade candi and with white sugar? Or you're just speculating that it makes a difference? Not to be an ass, but I just want to make sure this is somewhat empirical before I go to the effort of candi sugar. Cheers, Joseph.


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## gap (19/8/08)

Make some and taste it. For amber and darker Belgians it
will make a difference to just using white sugar. 

I cook mine for a minimum of 3 hours , especially to get the dark red/black colour.


Regards 

Graeme


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## Luka (19/8/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> gibbocore
> 
> If you're seriously making a lot of Belgian beers I suggest reading "Brew Like a Monk".
> 
> ...



I'm reading it ATM, good read and gives you all the info on what the Trappist breweries use. Unfortunately don't have my copy here at work so I can't look up a good answer for your question. An interesting read though.


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## Rod (19/8/08)

I have never made beer with straight sucrose 

My " tastes better " is from making beers with malt dextrose etc 

and tasting a fuller , smoother , caramel taste with candy sugar


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## T.D. (19/8/08)

Rod said:


> I have never made beer with straight sucrose



I know one guy who does...

Where is beeroclock these days anyway???


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## kook (19/8/08)

I'd rather avoid a caramel taste in a BPA, but thats just me. BPA for me is all about drinkability - clean biscuity malt flavour and light spice and fruit from hops and yeast - not sweet caramel notes.

edit - Ignore that, for some reason I thought you were brewing a BPA.

Statement still stands for a BGSA though. I don't think you need caramel flavours there.


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## Rod (19/8/08)

kook said:


> I'd rather avoid a caramel taste in a BPA, but thats just me. BPA for me is all about drinkability - clean biscuity malt flavour and light spice and fruit from hops and yeast - not sweet caramel notes.
> 
> edit - Ignore that, for some reason I thought you were brewing a BPA.
> 
> Statement still stands for a BGSA though. I don't think you need caramel flavours there.



The brewferm Belgium Tripple and the Tarwbeier were the beers I made 

Got them cheap as they were near their useby date


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

There's a new belgian sugar experiment on basicbrewing radio here.

The mad fermentationist made his own dark candi sugar by keeping at at constant T for hours. He had a thermometer with an alarm on it, so he could wander away as long as he was in ear shot. Handy!

I'm afraid I didn't pay much attention to the whole show but I think the conclusion was that the candi sugar didn't make the best beer .. but I can't remember what did! How feeble is that? Perhaps I should download it and listen again. 

Conversely on teh original experiment here
they were almost falling on the floor with delight over the beer made with the commercial syrup.

Go figure!

None of which answers you question because you're asking about clear sugar. 

Well I used to think that it was important to invert the sugar because then the yeast doesn't have to do it and produce unpleasant esters in the process. Now I'm not so sure but I still do it anyway ... sort of like throwing salt over my shoulder.
Its easy, just sugar, water and citric acid and use a candy thermometer to keep it at syrup temperature.
And it makes an interesting effect when you toss boiling sugar syrup into boiling wort.


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## kook (19/8/08)

braufrau said:


> There's a new belgian sugar experiment on basicbrewing radio here.
> 
> The mad fermentationist made his own dark candi sugar by keeping at at constant T for hours. He had a thermometer with an alarm on it, so he could wander away as long as he was in ear shot. Handy!
> 
> I'm afraid I didn't pay much attention to the whole show but I think the conclusion was that the candi sugar didn't make the best beer .. but I can't remember what did! How feeble is that? Perhaps I should download it and listen again.



In his previous sugar experiments the dark candi syrup sounds like the nicest tasting option for darker belgians. Date sugar sounded interesting too.

His use of white sugar in the first test was flawed though, as the fermentation wasn't temp controlled like the others:

"The only big disappointment from the group was the white sugar, because I did not have enough room in my fermentation fridge or enough small fermenters the beer ended up tasting boozy and rather unpleasant. In general there is nothing wrong with adding refined white sugar to your beer, I have used it as up to 20% of the fermentables, with good yeast management and temperature control the beers did not come out cidery or unpleasant."


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## marlow_coates (19/8/08)

Ok. read this thread and several articles on the net about how to make my own candi sugar. bought a candi thermometer a week ago. Then realised i had some time this arvo and went and bought 1kg of sugar.

However, i got distracted when looking at sugars <_< 

And not wanting to drive back and ask this question i bought 1kg of CSR dark brown sugar.

Came home, added water and lemon juice and started boiling. Only to discover that the bargain candi thermometer I got that says it goes up to 200C, actually didn't go above 120C :angry: So i couldn't get accuarately into the 127C - 135C range as recommended.

Pretty much I just let it boil for about 20 min then transfered to cake tin with grease proof paper lining it.

Have I made Candi Sugar?
What is the potential difference in using dark brown sugar?

It did taste great and when dried on the spoon was very similar to toffee.

Will adding this to my intended belgium have a down side?

Cheers

Marlow


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

marlow_coates said:


> Came home, added water and lemon juice and started boiling. Only to discover that the bargain candi thermometer I got that says it goes up to 200C, actually didn't go above 120C :angry: So i couldn't get accuarately into the 127C - 135C range as recommended.
> 
> Pretty much I just let it boil for about 20 min then transfered to cake tin with grease proof paper lining it.


I find mucking around with cake tins a PITA, so I just make it while the wort is boiling and chuck it in.



> Have I made Candi Sugar?


Probably sort of. 



> What is the potential difference in using dark brown sugar?


dark brown sugar is less refined, so it has molasses clinging to the crystals which will add to the flavour.
I wouldn't suggest putting straight molasses in beer though ... urrrk!



> It did taste great and when dried on the spoon was very similar to toffee.


Then it will probably be great in beer too!



> Will adding this to my intended belgium have a down side?


I don't think so. I think it will be good as long as you are making a dark belgian and not a tripel. 

Let us know how it is!


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## wessmith (19/8/08)

Folks,

Candi or Candii sugar is not the same as "candy" as we know it. This debate on Belgian candii sugar has been going on for close on 10 years as far as I remember - do your searches on AHB, CBA and the good 'ol HBD and you will find a pile of info.

So much misinformation - Jeez....

Wes


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

wessmith said:


> Folks,
> 
> Candi or Candii sugar is not the same as "candy" as we know it. This debate on Belgian candii sugar has been going on for close on 10 years as far as I remember - do your searches on AHB, CBA and the good 'ol HBD and you will find a pile of info.
> 
> ...




But did anyone say its was?? :blink:


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## wessmith (19/8/08)

Yep, by implication that making "toffee" was producing a candi sugar. 

Wes


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## trevc (19/8/08)

> So what are the lessons of Duvel? It is apostacy among Oregon brewers to add sugar to a beer. Moortgat doesn't even bother with candi sugar--they throw in regular old sucrose.


From: http://beervana.blogspot.com/2007/08/speak-of-devil.html



> For the most part, Duvel is simply made, using Belgian pils malt and some sucrose. Its complexity derives from the yeast usedor, rather, the yeasts.


From: http://www.thebrewhouse.com/resource_center/the_inner.htm (look under Duvel)

I've used sucrose for my latest Golden Strong (always with 1388), and it's the best Belgian I've ever made. The sugar definitely didn't hurt, and who knows... maybe it helped?


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

wessmith said:


> Yep, by implication that making "toffee" was producing a candi sugar.
> 
> Wes




he said it tasted like toffee .. not that it was toffee!.

So what's your definition of belgian candi?


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## wabster (19/8/08)

While on this subject I notice the claim that some golden syrup is in fact inverted. I use the plain ole aussie CSR Golden Syrup in some beers and it seems to come out quite well, though I don't add any other adjunct sugars except the main game - malt!

Is aussie golden syrup inverted? Cheerz Wab


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## kook (19/8/08)

braufrau said:


> So what's your definition of belgian candi?



Personally, I believe Belgian Candi Sugar is a dark, caramel-like syrup used for colouring and flavour in dark Belgian beers. It's a byproduct of beet sugar processing.

The reason a lot of people associate rock/lump sugar as it was incorrectly marketed in the US as being the stuff used by Belgian brewers. The prices asked for it meant that brewers tried to work out a way to replicate that particular type of sugar being sold as "candi sugar", when it infact was just sugar crystals.


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## trevc (19/8/08)

Where's beeroclock? I thought he'd be all over this discussion. My golden strong had a kilo of "suga" in it.

I did more Google'ing, and came up with more references stating that Moortgat uses straight sugar.


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## wessmith (19/8/08)

Very simple Braufrau - crystalline beet sucrose. What has muddied the pond recently has been the introduction of "liquid candii sugar". Now to be a liquid, it has to be invert candii sugar syrup. Otherwise it will crystallise immediately on cooling.

I dont know how the folks in Belgium are inverting the product but I would like to know before using same. CSR have an invert syrup that is acidified with sulphuric acid for inversion then neutralised with caustic soda to produce a balanced pH product. We put some in stock some years back but dumped it - it was horrible. There is a good alternative in using the enzyme invertase to commercially achieve the same result - which of course is what yeast does when it meets sucrose.

Wes


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## wessmith (19/8/08)

wabster said:


> While on this subject I notice the claim that some golden syrup is in fact inverted. I use the plain ole aussie CSR Golden Syrup in some beers and it seems to come out quite well, though I don't add any other adjunct sugars except the main game - malt!
> 
> Is aussie golden syrup inverted? Cheerz Wab



About 60%

Wes


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

kook said:


> Personally, I believe Belgian Candi Sugar is a dark, caramel-like syrup used for colouring and flavour in dark Belgian beers. It's a byproduct of beet sugar processing.


Actually from candy making. 
If you see this page linky
its pretty well defined what candi syrup is! How its made.
sugar breakdown, colour, potential gravity etc. etc.

The belgian sugar experimenter on basic brewing radio says he consulted with the importers of those dark candi syrups and was told not to just heat it at about 285F whatever that is in C, for hours and hours.



> The reason a lot of people associate rock/lump sugar as it was incorrectly marketed in the US as being the stuff used by Belgian brewers. The prices asked for it meant that brewers tried to work out a way to replicate that particular type of sugar being sold as "candi sugar", when it infact was just sugar crystals.


Yeah, but I think we're all over that .. those lumps are just sucrose. The caramelisation of the darker ones will add some flavour but otherwise .. ordinary old sugar.


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## kook (19/8/08)

braufrau said:


> Actually from candy making.
> If you see this page linky
> its pretty well defined what candi syrup is! How its made.
> sugar breakdown, colour, potential gravity etc. etc.



Exactly - beet sugar, not cane sugar. They boil down pure, unrefined beet sugar for ages - and remove the crystals (which are what we would normally consider "sugar" (i.e. granulated).


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## kook (19/8/08)

wessmith said:


> Very simple Braufrau - crystalline beet sucrose. What has muddied the pond recently has been the introduction of "liquid candii sugar". Now to be a liquid, it has to be invert candii sugar syrup. Otherwise it will crystallise immediately on cooling.



Now I'm confused - everything I've said above may be incorrect.

I only spoke with a couple brewers in Belgium - but there seemed to be two different products generally used for added fermentables. Plain old beet sugar, or candi syrup (sometimes called caramel). The first was added purely for extra alcohol, second for colour and flavour.

I know De Struisse just use plain old beet sugar, comes in 25? kg sacks. I'll see if I can find pictures of them adding it to the boil for Pannepot. From speaking to someone involved with Alvinne - I know they used candi syrup for darkening and flavour in at least one beer.

Is it the former or the latter product that should actually be referred to as candi sugar / candi syrup ?


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## trevc (19/8/08)

Aren't beet sugar/cane sugar the exact same thing? (refined from a different source)


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## wessmith (19/8/08)

kook said:


> Now I'm confused - everything I've said above may be incorrect.
> 
> I only spoke with a couple brewers in Belgium - but there seemed to be two different products generally used for added fermentables. Plain old beet sugar, or candi syrup (sometimes called caramel). The first was added purely for extra alcohol, second for colour and flavour.
> 
> ...



Two different products Kook, Candii sugar is crystalline. Candi syrup probably has been caramelised which in itself will have introduced some level of inversion. Beet sugar is different from cane sugar when we talk about sucrose. The refining process is very different and the resulting product from beet sugar tends to be more nuetral in fermentation in my opinion. Put another way, our Aussie cane sugar introduces a citrusy flavour I do not like. Stricktly my opinion.

Wes


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## kook (19/8/08)

wessmith said:


> Two different products Kook, Candii sugar is crystalline. Candi syrup probably has been caramelised which in itself will have introduced some level of inversion. Beet sugar is different from cane sugar when we talk about sucrose. The refining process is very different and the resulting product from beet sugar tends to be more nuetral in fermentation in my opinion. Put another way, our Aussie cane sugar introduces a citrusy flavour I do not like. Stricktly my opinion.
> 
> Wes



I'm confused - so the granulated/crystalline plain beet sugar that Struisse for example use, is candi sugar, not the syrup used for colour/flavour by other brewers?

It's annoying that this isn't being explained correctly in books like BLAM (pg 12):

"Theres no i in sugar. Historical references to the use of candi sugar in Trappist breweries beginning in the 1920s dont describe the crystal rocks Americans call Belgian candi sugar, but most often a dark caramel syrup."


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## kook (19/8/08)

trevc said:


> Aren't beet sugar/cane sugar the exact same thing? (refined from a different source)



Nope - they have a different percentage of fructose / glucose.

edit: (when they're inverted).

edit again: Ignore above - I'm mistaken.


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

kook said:


> Nope - they have a different percentage of fructose / glucose.




They are both almost 100% sucrose. They differ in teeny tiny amounts of impurities such as protein.
wikipedia

From the dark candi website we can see that the syrup is ~40% water, 30% sucrose, 15% fructocse and 15% glucose. i.e. it is 50% inverted. The different syrups they sell have different degrees of caramalisation.


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## kook (19/8/08)

braufrau said:


> They are both almost 100% sucrose. They differ in teeny tiny amounts of impurities such as protein.
> wikipedia



Don't those proteins then influence the way that the sugar is broken down by the yeast?

edit- Ignore above - I'm mistaken.


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

kook said:


> Don't those proteins then influence the way that the sugar is broken down by the yeast?




Maybe ... but the most important thing about candy syrup is its inverted and its caramalised .. if its not clear.
I think the beet sugar thing is a furphy. It just happens that in the EU sugar comes from beet. Not many suitable places to grow sugar cane.


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## kook (19/8/08)

braufrau said:


> I think the beet sugar thing is a furphy.



It could be, but the baking industry has been claiming there is a difference when the products are used in cooking:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../31/FD91867.DTL

It would be interesting to get hold of some beet and cane sugars and caramelise them side-by-side and see whether there is a discernible taste difference afterwoods.


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## braufrau (19/8/08)

kook said:


> It could be, but the baking industry has been claiming there is a difference when the products are used in cooking:
> 
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../31/FD91867.DTL
> 
> It would be interesting to get hold of some beet and cane sugars and caramelise them side-by-side and see whether there is a discernible taste difference afterwoods.




yep ... but i'm not sure we can get beet sugar here :unsure:


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## Cortez The Killer (21/8/08)

People 

I just made some dark candi sugar for a dubbel I've got planned for the weekend 

After cooling for a little while SWMBO and I tried some 

And there are some horrible burnt flavours in it - not pleasant at all

I bascially dissolved normal sugar with some citric acid in water and heated it 

I held it between Hard Ball and Soft Crack for about 40 mins - brought it up to hard crack and turned it off

I'm gonna make another batch for a shorter time (not as dark) - but what caused these off flavours?

Is there something wrong in my method?

Has anyone tasted their dark candi sugar? What did it taste like?

Cheers


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## gap (21/8/08)

Cortez The Killer said:


> People
> 
> I just made some dark candi sugar for a dubbel I've got planned for the weekend
> 
> ...



I did not add citric acid to mine. I cooked it for at least 3 hours. It does not have any off or burnt flavours.
I also have a bottle of the dark candi syrup and it has much more intense flavours than what I made.

Regards

Graeme


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## Cortez The Killer (21/8/08)

Upon tasting again it's more of a really bitter taste

I wonder if I went over board with the citric acid

There is something really unpleasant about it


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## marlow_coates (21/8/08)

I have read that you should keep it going on the boil untill you get the 'desired flavour'.
Presumably this flavour is then imparted to some degree into the brew.

Haven't tried mine yet (tasted like toffee) so really don't know.

A kilo of sugar is cheap though so might be worth trying it again with less citric?

Best of luck.


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## Cortez The Killer (21/8/08)

Gonna finish off a job i'm working on and then have another crack at it tonight

Might try not going as dark, stirring more and more gradual temperature changes

Cheers


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## buttersd70 (21/8/08)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Upon tasting again it's more of a really bitter taste
> 
> I wonder if I went over board with the citric acid
> 
> There is something really unpleasant about it






Cortez The Killer said:


> Gonna finish off a job i'm working on and then have another crack at it tonight
> 
> Might try not going as dark, stirring more and more gradual temperature changes
> 
> Cheers



Sounds to me like some of the sugar may have caught and scorched, cortez. The bitter edge is the giveaway that this is likely. I think your right with more stirring, and more gradual temperature shifting.


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## trevc (21/8/08)

Keep in mind it still keeps cooking for a while after you cut the heat. This has caught me before, and I ended up with pretty dark stuff.

If it looks like it's gone too far, dump it on a tray with a bunch of peanuts or other nuts. It's basically peanut brittle, and tastes great.


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## Cortez The Killer (22/8/08)

Unfortunately mine was too far gone for consumption - I've dumped it  

Cheers


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## devo (12/2/09)

I was fortunate enough to recently get may hands on a couple of kilos of beet sugar imported from Belgium. I'm planning on inverting it myself but was wondering if I need to approach the process differently than say cane sugar?

I'm planning on using the method linked here


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (12/2/09)

devo said:


> I was fortunate enough to recently get may hands on a couple of kilos of beet sugar imported from Belgium. I'm planning on inverting it myself but was wondering if I need to approach the process differently than say cane sugar?
> 
> I'm planning on using the method linked here



I'm fairly certain I read somewhere that the citric acid is not required to invert the sugar.
I'll try and find where I read it.

C&B
TDA


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## devo (12/2/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> I'm fairly certain I read somewhere that the citric acid is not required to invert the sugar.
> I'll try and find where I read it.
> 
> C&B
> TDA



Thanks for the link TDA you pm'd. I may try it without the citric and aim for a light golden candi sugar tonight.


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## warrenlw63 (12/2/09)

devo said:


> I was fortunate enough to recently get may hands on a couple of kilos of beet sugar imported from Belgium.



Begs the question... how? how? how? how? how?  

I hope we shan't be seeing you as the feature story on Border Security?  

Warren -


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## devo (12/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Begs the question... how? how? how? how? how?
> 
> I hope we shan't be seeing you as the feature story on Border Security?
> 
> Warren -



From a friend of a friend who knows a guy that knows some other guys sister who is going out with a DJ who knows some guy. B)


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## warrenlw63 (12/2/09)

:lol: That's some paper trail.

Warren -


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## mwd (12/2/09)

If you buy Lyles Brand Golden Syrup it is most likely invert sugar made from beet anyway.

Most of Europe's Sugar comes from Sugar Beet. If its white sugar then no different from cane sugar anyway. ( or very little difference ).


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## gap (12/2/09)

Tropical_Brews said:


> If you buy Lyles Brand Golden Syrup it is most likely invert sugar made from beet anyway.
> 
> Most of Europe's Sugar comes from Sugar Beet. If its white sugar then no different from cane sugar anyway. ( or very little difference ).



It certainly will not have the same flavour components as candi sugar, especially candi sugar in darker colours eg amber and dark.
Golden Syrup is not fully inverted , neither will the beet sugar or ordinary sugar.

In my opinion if you are not making amber or dark there is little point in trying to invert sugar for Belgian style beers. Just use ordinary white sugar.
I have a jar of "Belgian Candi Syrup" Dark purchased from Morebeer. Tastes nothing like Golden Syrup.

Regards

Graeme


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## mwd (12/2/09)

Yes but wouldn't it be easier to make your dark Candi Sugar from Golden Syrup as its about halfway converted for you and most likely beet sugar too ? :excl: 

Or is it not as easy as first thoughts?


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## gap (12/2/09)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Yes but wouldn't it be easier to make your dark Candi Sugar from Golden Syrup as its about halfway converted for you and most likely beet sugar too ? :excl:
> 
> Or is it not as easy as first thoughts?



I doubt it will invert any more .

i am more concerned with the colour and flavour components produced by darkening the sugar than
how invert the sugar is. Read about some of the uses for invert sugar and why it is used in Industries like cake making etc..

Regards

Graeme


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## rich_lamb (12/2/09)

Yeah - like he said. Focus on what's important; the flavour compounds.

Get over the whole "invert" thing - the yeast will ferment it either way.


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## unterberg (12/2/09)

Tropical_Brews said:


> If you buy Lyles Brand Golden Syrup it is most likely invert sugar made from beet anyway.
> 
> Most of Europe's Sugar comes from Sugar Beet. If its white sugar then no different from cane sugar anyway. ( or very little difference ).



I can confirm that. Nearly all our refined white sugar is from sugar beet. And would be hardly any different to white sugar made from sugar cane.


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## muckanic (13/2/09)

wabster said:


> While on this subject I notice the claim that some golden syrup is in fact inverted. I use the plain ole aussie CSR Golden Syrup in some beers and it seems to come out quite well,



Many moons ago I performed some experiments to try and nail down the source of that cidery flavour that everyone objects to. I concluded that fructose was the culprit (try some pure fructose for yourself). Now in the course of all this testing, I also tried some home-made invert sucrose using citric acid, and concluded that it didn't eliminate the cidery note. An alternative possibility, however, is that my inversion didn't go to completion, except that even if it had worked I would still have wound up with about 50% fructose. Interestingly, Aussie golden syrup made appropriately dry beer, and the light caramel is a nice touch. I concluded that it was probably glucose, but I haven't verified that and could be wrong. If it actually is invert, then it seems to me that it would be just the ticket for pale Belgian brews, and a lot easier than the home-made variety (as well as being pH neutral). There remains the further possibility of cooking the syrup to try and darken it.


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## muckanic (16/2/09)

buttersd70 said:


> The belgians use invert to boost the OG without producing off flavours from the yeast having to break the bond in the sucrose.



The question arises why yeast-facilitated breakdown of one disaccharide (sucrose) to monosaccharides would result in off-flavours, whereas breakdown of another (maltose) does not. Sure, different enzymes are involved, but the principle is awfully similar. Dave Miller says the culprit is fructose, and I'm inclined to agree with him. Further, Acton & Duncan (a pair of fairly scientific winemaking authors) say sucrose will spontaneously hydrolyse at a slow rate in air, so I'm curious about some of these suggestions that heat and acidity may not be enough to take the reaction mostly to completion.


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