# Chinese Varieties



## Steve

*Product*
SAAZ aroma hop pellets(SA-1) (T-90)
Chinese Saaz (SA-1) comes from Female Saaz and Male Tettnang.
The taste is the same as any premium SE Asian Beer.

_Specification_
a acids: 4.3%% -Acids: 2.0%-4.0%


*Product*
CLUSTER bitter hop pellets(Qingdao Dahua) (T-90)
Good all round workhorse hop, XXXX flavour hop

_Specification_
a-Acids 6.6% -Acids>3.5%


*Product*
MARCO POLO (COLUMBUS) hop pellets (T-90)
Typical APA flavours from USA beers

_Specification_
a-Acids>12% -Acids>3.0%


*Product*
CASCADE aroma hop pellets (T-90)
Not as strong as USA type, more rounded citris flavours.

_Specification_
a-Acids 5.8% B-Acids 4.0-6.0 %


*Product*
Nugget bittering hop pellet (T-90)
Typical nugget flavours

_Specifications_
a-Acids>12% -Acids>3.0%


To make it easier for everyone please put your reviews of each hop here. If possible, can those who have already posted in the various Chinese hop threads cut n paste their posts in here?
Cheers
Steve


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## benno1973

*Chinese Cascade Review*

*Bitterness*: A really nice bitterness from these hops. I've used Cascade before to bitter and found them to be harsh/rough, so pleasantly surprised. I didn't go over the top bittering this one - it was somewhere in the 50-55IBU range which is pretty sedate for an IPA, but I didn't want the feeling that a cat had clawed my tongue out, more the bitterness that you'd associate with an English IPA. Something like Sam Smiths India Ale, or Meantime IPA. So check one for bitterness, very happy.

*Flavour*: Actually, quite nice. A little one dimensional, but I find US Cascade to be that way also. I get candied orange peel flavours, although the malt bill has a fair whack of CaraMunich II which probably accentuates this. The flavour isn't over the top, a little subdued, and could probably use something else to provide a bit more interest. Certainly not the over-the-top flavours that we might get from Amarillo or Nelson Sauvin. Some might say that's a good thing.

*Aroma*: Almost negligible. Strangely, I would have thought that the amount of hops thrown in would have been enough to really punch out some aroma in this beer, but there's not a lot there. There's some vague citrus notes, but nothing outstanding and the malt bill easily competes with the hops in the aroma. Personally, I like it, but it certainly wasn't what I was aiming for, and if I was looking for a huge aromatic IPA I'd be disappointed.

So the verdict? Well, after all the discussion and passionate debate from either side, I hate to go middle of the road, but I just have to. Great bittering hop, nice subdued flavour (which I might use in conjunction with something else, possibly US Cascade would compliment nicely?) and little aroma. Would I buy it again? Definitely at this price. If it was the same price as all other hops, possibly not, but who can go past $14/kg? As others have said, I'll be using it as a bittering workhorse, and possibly combine it with other hops to make up for the areas that it's lacking in. All in all, I totally agree with Daemon who already posted pretty much the same review at the start of the week!


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## Ross

Chinese Cascade - Can't really add much to Kaiser Soze's excellent review. I found them also a little earthy & was dissapointed that the brew I tasted had 300gms+ thrown at it, but the flavour/aroma was more like 50gms. A pleasant beer though.

Marco Polo - A slightly one dimensional lemony/grapefruit aroma flavour, but totally spoilt by a firm lingering bitterness that coats the back of the throat. I'm guessing these have been grown for Alpha Acid extraction rather than for direct brewing. I've seen a few other actual reviews around & everyone has made the same comments. 

Cheers Ross


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## daemon

I've made two brews with the Chinese Cascade now and overall not happy enough to proceed with the next buy. I had brewed a basic APA to a very similar recipe that I'd used previously with US Cascade hops. Initial impressions is that there is simply no aroma in these hops, something very unlike most US and NZ grown varieties. The flavour is very subdued and doesn't have the distinct crispness of the US/NZ grown variety, I get more lemon than citrus. I don't really like the flavour as a single hop, they need to be blended with something else to make the beer worthwhile. If you want to use them for aroma (0 min / dry hop etc) you'll need to at least triple the usual amount, something that negates most of the savings from going with cheaper hops. After two weeks in the keg it's lost all aroma and a lot of flavour.

The 2nd brew was more of a "Summer Ale", designed as a basic quaffer for Xmas day (no aroma, low IBU's, low hop flavour). This was a much better match and while it worked it still wasn't an outstanding beer. The bittering isn't as clean as varieties such as Super Alpha so I'm hesitant to use them for bittering in brew with other hops. Will try another Summer Ale soon with a 90min addition only to see if it's usable there. 

I question their freshness as well, they simply don't compare to the hops from other suppliers. Cheaper yes but simply no where near the same quality as the usual suppliers. Worth a try from Ross for a $1.50 if you want to test it for yourself, just understand all the feedback listed first.


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## Carboy

Hi everyone,

Today I set down my second AG brew and it was a Pilsner made with Chinese Hops. All temps and Brewhouse efficiencies were exactly on the mark  but I have to say that this was the first time after 48 brews that I had to spit out my hydrometer sample.

The hop addition was...
25g Marco Polo (60 minutes)
20g Saaz (20 minutes)
15g Saaz (15 minutes)
10g Saaz (10 minutes)
10g Saaz (0 minutes) the expected IBU was 41.2

The sample was very, very grassy and unpleasant to the mouth, and in the bottom of the boiler the hops looked like mud and didn't smell right :icon_vomit: 

I'm still learning, and after my first AG tasting sooooo gooood with LHBS hops, I have to say I will not use the remainder of my of Chinese hops (2.92kg)....its not worth the disappointment after 5 hours work.

Fingers crossed the brew will settle down after fermentation :unsure: I'm glad I learnt this lesson early!

Happy New Year!

Cheers
Carboy :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G

I have two Chinese brews in the keg and drinking. However they were both blended with other hops. I have:

A Belgian blonde with 80g C Saaz 60 mins and 2 Styrian plugs 10 minutes. Nothing 'off' in the hop flavour and a light bittering, but apart from some perfume from the Styrians there isn't the hop aroma hit you get from a Leffe etc.
A UK bog standard special bitter with ale malt and crystal with 50g C Cluster 60 mins and 20g Challenger 10 mins. Can't fault the bittering but the flavour and aroma are struggling against the malt and crystal flavours rather than blending in, and at this stage it's definitely toffee/crystal driven.

I have an all C Saaz international style lager that has been in cold conditioning for nearly two weeks. I'll polyclar it today and bottle it next Monday - this will be the 'crunch' brew. Wort tasted pleasant enough. I'll sneak a taste with the turkey baster and report this afternoon.


Edit: good I got in before the editing window expired. The sample was excellent in colour and clarity, no discernible hop aroma but a fair amount of bittering from the C Saaz and a fairly mellow flavour. However some aroma would be nice to balance the noticeable bittering. As an International style - e.g. Kingfisher or Singha, it should be showing a bit of Saaz or Hallertau aroma - I may hit it up half the bottles with some tea, maybe from a Styrian plug. I'm bottling this whole batch and let it mature on for a couple of months. Anyway I won't be using this C Saaz by itself again.


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## Steve

I've made one double batch with these hops. It was with cluster to 25IBU's with BB Ale and some crystal. Ive had to resort to giving each glass a dash of lime cordial to cancel out the sharp bitter isohop taste at the back of the throat (as in an English lager n lime). Without it, its very undrinkable (even for me). Very reluctant to use the remaining hops. If I did it would only be a single batch instead of my usual doubles to avoid the possible disappointment.

Cheers
Steve

P.S. Carboy, the bottom of my kettle also looked like mud. It was actually brown, didnt smell of anything and was actually harder to clean.


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## bradsbrew

Steve said:


> I've made one double batch with these hops. It was with cluster to 25IBU's with BB Ale and some crystal. Ive had to resort to giving each glass a dash of lime cordial to cancel out the sharp bitter isohop taste at the back of the throat (as in an English lager n lime). Without it, its very undrinkable (even for me). Very reluctant to use the remaining hops. If I did it would only be a single batch instead of my usual doubles to avoid the possible disappointment.
> 
> Cheers
> Steve
> 
> P.S. Carboy, the bottom of my kettle also looked like mud. It was actually brown, didnt smell of anything and was actually harder to clean.



Steve I think that the cluster is a Higher AA than we have been quoted?? I too have found the bitterness higher than expected. I had alot more sweeter malts in the batches which has helped with the overbitterness.

Brad


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## Steve

Steve said:


> I've made one double batch with these hops. It was with cluster to 25IBU's with BB Ale and some crystal. Ive had to resort to giving each glass a dash of lime cordial to cancel out the sharp bitter isohop taste at the back of the throat (as in an English lager n lime). Without it, its very undrinkable (even for me). Very reluctant to use the remaining hops. If I did it would only be a single batch instead of my usual doubles to avoid the possible disappointment.
> 
> Cheers
> Steve
> 
> P.S. Carboy, the bottom of my kettle also looked like mud. It was actually brown, didnt smell of anything and was actually harder to clean.



This cluster has really mellowed out. Its now very drinkable and quite a good summer quaffer! Things are looking good. Quite confident to give them another go. If anyone in Canberra wants a few hundred grams of either Cluster, Saaz and Cascade to try out. Give me a hoy. Free of course.
Cheers
Steve

Edit: Im used to drinking my beers after a week in the fermenter and then force carbed. I like them green. Obviously this cluster needs a while to mellow out.


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## Bribie G

Steve, I used 50g of the Cluster as bittering with Challenger for aroma, and also had the bitter twang but mine is also mellowing out over a week. I've got another 50g job with Northdown as the finishing hop and I'm going to crack one this afternoon. Even though the Challenger was a late addition it would probably have added some bittering so let's see. I kegged and bottled the Chinese Pale Pilsener last night and I seem to have achieved the beer with no aroma :lol: I'll take a couple of bottles to BABBs in a couple of weeks. I reckon this one will be perfect for a shot of Bickfords lime - Radler anyone?


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## Steve

BribieG said:


> I reckon this one will be perfect for a shot of Bickfords lime - Radler anyone?



:lol: Thats the lime I was using last week. Nice bottle hey? Dont need it anymore though. Let us know how they go.
Cheers
Steve


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## QldKev

I done a batch with Chinese Saaz on the weekend; it was on Gregs 3V system (thanks Greg)

The 50L recipie I used 
Hallertau Mittlefrueh 110g 60min (German)
Saaz 110g 40min (Chinese)
Saaz 110g 20min (Chinese)

Off the kettle I noticed virtually no hop aroma with the Saaz additions. You know that blast of smell you get on the kettle addition. I found the Saaz did not want to stay in the boil; I had to keep mixing them back in - good or bad not sure, but have never seen this prior. Now the bit of concern after flame out once the boil had settled down, and prior to whirl pooling I noticed an oily film floating on top of the wort. I have never seen this before and although I am going to still drink the beer, I am concerned at what it could have been. Maybe it is just the oils out of the higher than normal usage of hops? (The amounts used was as per the Budvar recipe)

Will give you tasting notes prior to fermenting and once ready for drinking.

QldKev


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## Bribie G

Cracked the first bottle of the Chinese Cluster + Northdown and I've posted pics on the 'what's in the glass' thread. It's not overly bitter although I used the same 50g as the other brew, I think I was probably right about the Challenger, this brew with Northdown is much more fragrant and milder in the bitterness. Yum. However the Saaz are a dead loss and I'll probably toss them.


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## benno1973

BribieG - what's wrong with the Saaz? I did a rice lager the other day with all Chinese Saaz and it tastes terrible out of the fermenter. I'm holding off on a review until the beer is completely fermented, but I'd be interested to hear what you think of them.

Don't worry, just saw your edit on your previous post. No flavour/aroma to balance the bitterness.


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## Steve

BribieG said:


> Cracked the first bottle of the Chinese Cluster + Northdown and I've posted pics on the 'what's in the glass' thread. It's not overly bitter although I used the same 50g as the other brew, I think I was probably right about the Challenger, this brew with Northdown is much more fragrant and milder in the bitterness. Yum. However the Saaz are a dead loss and I'll probably toss them.



Shame about the saaz. Bribie, let me know if you get bad guts after a good few glasses of the cluster beer will you?
Cheers
Steve


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## Bribie G

Steve said:


> Shame about the saaz. Bribie, let me know if you get bad guts after a good few glasses of the cluster beer will you?
> Cheers
> Steve



I had about six pints of the #1 Cluster ale last night, didn't do me any harm :lol:


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## gregs

Never mind the poor aroma; has anyone queried the processors standards in food safety. I dont want to cause a stir but after seeing the oil slick and white plastic looking stuff after flame out on QldKevs Budvar I would be asking questions. 

Oh and Kev you will be drinking that one on your own.


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## winkle

I going to take a leaf out of Bribies book and attempt to rescue the Marco Polo with a sticklebrac hop tea. This is a hop I'll probably chuck.
Then I'll boost the aroma in the AIPA I brewed using Chinese Nugget (bittering) and Chinese Cascade (flavour and "aroma" additions) with a US Cascade hop tea. The flavour of this one is quite good and I will probably brew it again with US cascade in for late hopping.

Edit: I might bring a before and after bottle of each to BABBs ( the Marco Polo was a SMASH , 70 IBUs)


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## .DJ.

ahhhhh..... sounds like the "guaranteed" hops are getting better by the day!


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## AndrewQLD

I have a BULK GIVEAWAY if anyone is interested,

These hops are a real disappointment to me and as such I really can't expect anyone to buy them, Marco Polo are very astringent with a back of the throat bitterness that lingers long after the beer is drunk, initially I thought they were Ok but on further sampling I can't get past the horrible bitterness, I haven't tried them as flavour or aroma and don't intend to. 
Cluster are very poor quality as well that made me think of tea.

500g Chinese Marco polo
900g Chinese Cluster

The catch is, you have to take them all in one hit, I am not splitting them, I just can't be bothered.
And, please don't blame me if your beer is not up to standard.

First to Pm me wins :huh: 
Cheers
Andrew


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## Snow

:huh: Oh man - sorry to see all these bad reviews after so much initial excitement and effort to get them over here. Gee whizz, I wonder how that Microbrewer GLS referred to who bought tons of the stuff is getting along?

- Snow


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## MarkBastard

Wow bit of a shame to see this feedback but good to see some honest information born through experience either way.

Looks like the Cascade is worth keeping and even represents good value, but the others are pretty much garbage?

Bribie is the Saaz a no go even as a bittering hop in very simple (SE Asia megaswill) lagers?


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## AndrewQLD

AndrewQLD said:


> I have a BULK GIVEAWAY if anyone is interested,
> 
> These hops are a real disappointment to me and as such I really can't expect anyone to buy them, Marco Polo are very astringent with a back of the throat bitterness that lingers long after the beer is drunk, initially I thought they were Ok but on further sampling I can't get past the horrible bitterness, I haven't tried them as flavour or aroma and don't intend to.
> Cluster are very poor quality as well that made me think of tea.
> 
> 500g Chinese Marco polo
> 900g Chinese Cluster
> 
> The catch is, you have to take them all in one hit, I am not splitting them, I just can't be bothered.
> And, please don't blame me if your beer is not up to standard.
> 
> First to Pm me wins :huh:
> Cheers
> Andrew




Gone!
You poor bugger :lol: 

Cheers
Andrew


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## Bribie G

I'll bring along some bottles to BABBs, I'll have 4 batches. Actually I don't mind these hops as a background bitterer in modest quantities (say 30 or 40g per brew) and I'll plough through them for house keg beers. I only bought the Saaz and Cluster and can't find any 'off flavours' - at least they weren't $80 a kilo  
Now my Chinese Pale Pilsener 100% Saaz is on tap I don't mind it as a refresher - beats the crap out of TED so I've changed my mind about chucking them, I'll just pimp them up with some Euro hops.


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## Fourstar

Well the last few posts in this thread makes me kinda scared as i decided to make two 'party beers' for a mates 21st. One with Chinese Cascade as a pale ale and one with Chinese Saaz as a blonde/cream ale. To top it off my Marco Polo pale ale is almost finished fermenting and i have a cube of my own Pseudo C Saaz Bohemian Pilsner ready for fermentation too! h34r: 

Yikes.. 100L of beer possibly destined for the drain!?!? I damn well hope not!

I must say the aroma from the marco polo coming from the fermenter just before pitching smelt really good! I guess aromas can be decieving. It happens to me every day crossing the street in the city. I get the aroma of sweet perfume, turn to realise its a complete slapper or a mutton dressed as lamb. :icon_vomit:


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## QldKev

AndrewQLD said:


> I have a BULK GIVEAWAY if anyone is interested,
> 
> These hops are a real disappointment to me and as such I really can't expect anyone to buy them, Marco Polo are very astringent with a back of the throat bitterness that lingers long after the beer is drunk, initially I thought they were Ok but on further sampling I can't get past the horrible bitterness, I haven't tried them as flavour or aroma and don't intend to.
> Cluster are very poor quality as well that made me think of tea.
> 
> 500g Chinese Marco polo
> 900g Chinese Cluster
> 
> The catch is, you have to take them all in one hit, I am not splitting them, I just can't be bothered.
> And, please don't blame me if your beer is not up to standard.
> 
> First to Pm me wins :huh:
> Cheers
> Andrew




Noooo; I blew $100 (5kg + by the time I paid postage) on these crappy Chinese shitty hops :icon_vomit: 


QldKev


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## Fourstar

QldKev said:


> Noooo; I blew $100 (5kg + by the time I paid postage) on these crappy Chinese shitty hops :icon_vomit:
> 
> QldKev



Hey QLD Kev i notice an oily film on the top of all of my wort when i no chill, i usually whirlpool and leave for 10-15 mins for it all to settle into a nice cone. this is usually very prominent with high hopping rates so i wouldnt be worried.

So, have you tasted your Saaz Pilsner?


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## Bribie G

I wouldn't panic 4*, so far it only seems to be the MP that has a disagreeable twang to it. The others so far aren't twangy, just lacking :lol: So the keggies could be dressed up with a bit of aroma, maybe some Euro Saaz hop tea or a plug of Mittelfreuh etc. I'm quite enjoying my efforts up to date and I'll use what I've got but won't be re-ordering.

As someone posted, obviously the Chinese varieties we bought in - despite their fancy names - were intended more for Alpha extraction, and bearing that in mind they are still a useful workhorse. The Bo Pils I would definitely make up some 10 minute tea with a Euro hop and add after a few days.


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## benno1973

The Cascade's alright as far as I can tell. Lacking in flavour and negligible aroma, but my IPA is tasting sensational at the moment, even if it's not the beer I planned it to be. My all Chinese Saaz rice lager on the other hand... :icon_vomit:


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## reviled

Anyone dry hopped with em yet?


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## RobW

Dry hopped a pale ale with 50g CCascade this morning (day 3), on top of 50g at 45, 50 at 10 and 50 at flameout.
Keep you posted.


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## QldKev

Fourstar said:


> Hey QLD Kev i notice an oily film on the top of all of my wort when i no chill, i usually whirlpool and leave for 10-15 mins for it all to settle into a nice cone. this is usually very prominent with high hopping rates so i wouldnt be worried.
> 
> So, have you tasted your Saaz Pilsner?





Yep wasn't sure if it was just hop oil with the high hopping rate (this is the most hops per brew I have ever done). Havn't tasted it yet, later this week I am planning on geting at least one cube into a fermentor so will give it a taste then. If I can just get away with adding another 50g into a hop tea and add to the fermentor I will be happy. 

QldKev


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## DiscoStu

I only bought the Chinese Cascade, a luck decision from what I read here.

I have made a basic Pale Ale, 90% JW Ale, 5% Wheat, 5% Crystal and bittered to 35 IBU's and some hops in at 20, 10, 0 mins as well. The aromas coming from the fermentor were pretty good.

It's been in the bottle a couple of weeks and I had a few over the weekend. Pleasant tasting beer, some citrus notes, pretty muted aroma though when compared to what I was expecting based on the smell during fermentation.

Overall I'm happy enough with the results, they'll make lots of house ale and I'll try a few things other styles with'em. 

Would I buy them again....probably not


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## Back Yard Brewer

Fourstar said:


> Well the last few posts in this thread makes me kinda scared as i decided to make two 'party beers' for a mates 21st. One with Chinese Cascade as a pale ale and one with Chinese Saaz as a blonde/cream ale. To top it off my Marco Polo pale ale is almost finished fermenting and i have a cube of my own Pseudo C Saaz Bohemian Pilsner ready for fermentation too! h34r:
> 
> Yikes.. 100L of beer possibly destined for the drain!?!? I damn well hope not!
> 
> I must say the aroma from the marco polo coming from the fermenter just before pitching smelt really good! I guess aromas can be decieving. It happens to me every day crossing the street in the city. I get the aroma of sweet perfume, turn to realise its a complete slapper or a mutton dressed as lamb. :icon_vomit:




Just make sure you tell em that you are a homebrewer and not a craftbrewer :lol: :lol: 


BYB


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## benno1973

I hope I didn't fall into the "great" category. I'd hate for my feedback to be misinterpreted!

I haven't seen anyone on AHB (apart from Graham) who said that the hop aroma was anything above poor. Not that that makes a bad hop, just lets not sell the RAV4 as an all terrain offroad vehicle!


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## winkle

This is what I've experienced so far.

The nugget seems a good bittering hop at this stage.
The "cascade" is ok for bittering has a pretty good but basic flavour and aroma pretty much disappears, I'll use it again in conjunction with US Cascade in big IPAs.
Marco Polo smelt pretty good going into the fermenter sort of a strong pine/citrus combo but that vanished leaving a harsh bitterness and faint grapefruit. I'm giving it more time in the fridge to see what happens to the bitterness but I've given up hope for the aroma.
I'll give the Saaz a run in a CAP just for my own interest.

Edit: added missing word


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## Bribie G

Any BABBs members who are interested, I'll be bringing the following to the Jan meeting:


All Saaz Pale Pilsener International Style with 120g of C Saaz
Belgian Blonde with 80g of C Saaz and finished with 2 Styrian plugs
UK best bitter with 50g C Cluster, finished with 20g Challenger
UK best bitter with 50g C Cluster, finished with 20g Northdown

Some good, some not too good but the proof of the pudding is in the eating

<rant>

over the last decade or so, the above proverb has been degraded to "the proof is in the pudding" . Bullshit. the full form is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". 

"the proof is in the pudding" is not only lazy but totally dilutes the meaning of the real proverb. Dickheads. Morons. 

<end rant> B)


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## bradsbrew

Sully said:


> OT:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, there goes my chances of getting any wins under my belt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I will go away now...




Which reminds me you never grabbed your samples?

Brad


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## clarkey7

Thanks to everyone for comments about the hops.....

Particularly those who have brewed with Saaz (BribieG)......I only bought Saaz and Cascade.

I will be brewing with the Saaz very soon. I was going to attempt a double batch of Bo Pils with around 200g of the Saaz.

I think I should split this batch and DH with Chinese Saaz in one and Czech Saaz in the other. Hopefully I'm skillful enough to capture those pesky aromas :lol: 

FYI - I brewed the 60min IPA with 3g/min in the boil and dry hopped with 60g (all Chinese Cascade).

I am more than happy with the drinkablility and flavour of this beer, but for 240g of hops the intensity of flavour is not there and there is Bugger all aroma.

I'm still happy with the Cascade, but I will not brew with them as a single hop again and never use them for DH.

Looking forward to trying others beers...

PB

Will refrain from commenting on other issues here..biting tongue


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## kook

Thread re-opened. Unfortunately some good content has been deleted in the process of removing the utter crap posted too. I apologise to those who this has affected.

Just to reiterate - *this thread is for posting about your experience in brewing with these hops. If you haven't purchased chinese hops, don't post in this thread!*

If you want to bitch and whine at Graham Sanders - do so in email to him.

If you want to accuse fellow members of being substandard brewers just for voicing their opinion about products they purchased through you - then don't post. It will be deleted.


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## gregs

Fourstar said:


> Hey QLD Kev i notice an oily film on the top of all of my wort when i no chill, i usually whirlpool and leave for 10-15 mins for it all to settle into a nice cone. this is usually very prominent with high hopping rates so i wouldnt be worried.
> 
> So, have you tasted your Saaz Pilsner?




Does you usual oil slick look like mother of pearl with white plastic floaty bits, because if it does you may need help.


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## bradsbrew

Well I would re-add my feedback about the usage and results of the Cluster and Cascade but I couldnt be bothered. To put it simply I will not purchase these again as I believe they are poor quality! And the hops that I buy from Ross must be better quality because they make my skills seem a lot better. 
I cant believe how much of a piss poor brewer I become when I use chinese hops.

Brad


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## scotteth

Like many I picked up the Cascade and the Saaz. So far I've only tasted the cascade in a pale ale and my experiences were the same as most here, the bittering was reasonable and the flavour was present but certainly much less than if some "real" cascade was used. Dry hopping and flameout additions made no difference in terms of aroma, ie none. Only at the beginning of my all grain adventure so I won't attempt to describe the flavours that I can taste other than to say its like a more subdued US cascade to me.

Brewing a Pilsner with the Saaz so am keen to see how this goes. 

I'm not unhappy with the purchase because I think supplementing these hops with some more traditionally grown is a good way to keep costs down. Having said that I won't be going in for the next hop round unless theres some better feedback. 

Given the time the hops spent on the dock (or was it the airport?), perhaps many of the volatiles were long gone by the time they got to us? Looking at cold storage in the distribution chain is something that might improve the aromatic potential later on?


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## daemon

scotteth said:


> Given the time the hops spent on the dock (or was it the airport?), perhaps many of the volatiles were long gone by the time they got to us? Looking at cold storage in the distribution chain is something that might improve the aromatic potential later on?


Based on the lack of aroma and subdued flavours, it really seems like we were sold old hops. If they were really as fresh as touted then a week or two without refrigeration would not have made much difference. They're just simply lower quality.

It seems that the Marco Polo has been designed for iso-hop extraction (given the harsh bittering it gives normally) and the other hops for plain lagers. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to bode well with making "craft" brews.

I'll be using the remainder of the Cascade in basic house ales, where flavour and aroma take a backseat to quaffability.


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## benno1973

bradsbrew said:


> I cant believe how much of a piss poor brewer I become when I use chinese hops.



Same here Brad. I have yet to master the elusive Chinese hop. I seem to be able to capture aroma and flavour from European and American hops, but my brewing practices just aren't up to scratch when it comes to the Chinese varieties.


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## bum

Kaiser Soze said:


> but my brewing practices just aren't up to scratch when it comes to the Chinese varieties.



Perhaps you should be using "THE LATEST TECHNOLOGY"?


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## Fourstar

gregs said:


> Does' you usual oil slick look like mother of pearl with white plastic floaty bits, because if it does' you may need help.



No, no they dont! (and they didnt with the Chinese hops either) It sounds like grain protein to me.


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## TidalPete

bradsbrew said:


> Well I would re-add my feedback but I couldnt be bothered.



Just as well!  :lol: 

TP


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## AndrewQLD

Cleaned up thread please keep this to the topicand please note this post


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## Steve

AndrewQLD said:


> Cleaned up thread please keep this to the topicand please note this post



Far out! I only offered Killer some free hops as he lost out! I will say it again, If anyone wants some free hops PM me.
Cheers
Steve


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## browndog

I've done a chinese cascade APA that went like this

30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.9 IBU 
30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 14.6 IBU 
30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (5 min) Hops 3.8 IBU 
30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (0min) Hops - 

Now would expect a rather hoppy beer from that amount of hops in an APA, anyone would. I checked out the gravity today, down to 1010 and thought right time to give it a try. First off, there was bugger all aroma and as for the taste, very little hop flavour and a bitterness I do not like at all (does this mean I don't know how to brew?) The cascade I got looked old, had bugger all aroma and the pellets were pale and hard as a rock. I'm not shy of calling a spade a spade and will say they are absolute crap and I would not pay *anything* for them, in fact I won't even give them away, they are going in the bin where they belong. I hope I don't come across as pissed off, as I am not, I knew the risk and was happy to take it. What does piss me off is all the talking up of them, Chappo has adressed the issue wonderfully in the no topic section.

cheers

Browndog


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## Fourstar

browndog said:


> First off, there was bugger all aroma and as for the taste, very little hop flavour and a bitterness I do not like at all (does this mean I don't know how to brew?)



Browndog, whats the bitterness like thats so offensive as i'll just dump mine if they are stuffed. A bit of a flavour/mouthfeel description if you could?


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## browndog

Fourstar said:


> Browndog, whats the bitterness like thats so offensive as i'll just dump mine if they are stuffed. A bit of a flavour/mouthfeel description if you could?



I've got a sample right in front of me now and it tastes........ the best I can describe is a lingering bitter metallic aftertaste that suddenly appears once the beer is swallowed, no hint of it until you swallow. Yuck. Hope that helps mate.

cheers

Browndog


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## Fourstar

browndog said:


> I've got a sample right in front of me now and it tastes........ the best I can describe is a lingering bitter metallic aftertaste that suddenly appears once the beer is swallowed, no hint of it until you swallow. Yuck.
> cheers
> Browndog



Think this has a chance of cleaning up after filtration and crash chill?


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## bradsbrew

browndog said:


> I've got a sample right in front of me now and it tastes........ the best I can describe is a lingering bitter metallic aftertaste that suddenly appears once the beer is swallowed, no hint of it until you swallow. Yuck.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Good description Browndog. It is a lingering bitterness that comes after swallowing. I took some to some local brewers ( of whos opinion is experienced an of value to me) yesterday and that was the overall feedback from the use of the cluster. Though with the cluster the aroma of the beer seemed fine, it was the flavour and bitterness that was bad.

Brad


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## bradsbrew

Fourstar said:


> Think this has a chance of cleaning up after filtration and crash chill?



I have found that the cascade does seem to taste a little better a month out. But does not have the cascade qualities though. It may go ok as a bittering addition in conjunction with US Apa hops.

Brad


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## browndog

Fourstar said:


> Think this has a chance of cleaning up after filtration and crash chill?



Hmmm..... if I had to take a guess, I'd say no, but I really hope I'm wrong. I've got it chilling now and it will be ready to drink by saturday week, I'll report back then.


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## RobW

browndog said:


> I've done a chinese cascade APA that went like this
> 
> 30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.9 IBU
> 30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 14.6 IBU
> 30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (5 min) Hops 3.8 IBU
> 30.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (0min) Hops -
> 
> Now would expect a rather hoppy beer from that amount of hops in an APA, anyone would. I checked out the gravity today, down to 1010 and thought right time to give it a try. First off, there was bugger all aroma and as for the taste, very little hop flavour and a bitterness I do not like at all (does this mean I don't know how to brew?) The cascade I got looked old, had bugger all aroma and the pellets were pale and hard as a rock. I'm not shy of calling a spade a spade and will say they are absolute crap and I would not pay *anything* for them, in fact I won't even give them away, they are going in the bin where they belong. I hope I don't come across as pissed off, as I am not, I knew the risk and was happy to take it. What does piss me off is all the talking up of them, Chappo has adressed the issue wonderfully in the no topic section.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



I have a similiae beer on the go but I went a bit bigger on the late additions after the mixed early reports :

50.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (45 min) 
50.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (10min) 
50.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (0 min) 
50.00 gm Chinese Cascade [6.00 %] (dry) 

Should be ready to drink by next week but I'm not getting too excited about it.


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## bradsbrew

I have made quite a few different brews using the Cluster, from English mild , aussie lager, aussie old/brown and stout and each one has a distinguished offensive bitterness when used solely as a biterring , it also has a terrible flavour. I had offered a sample of this and a couple of the other Chinese hops to some local brewing friends and I am glad that they have not yet taken them! I will be throwing out the remainder of the cluster and and 100% of the saaz. I may still use the cascade as a bittering hop. But haonestly and seriously the Cluster is crap. 
This is not a hit out at any of the organisers of the bulk buy and I DO OT have sour grapes, it was a gamble and i lost. I now have a couple of kegs and cubes of below par beer to get through. 

brad


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## rosswill

I made an APA (Jamil's recipe) with the Marco Polo and it turned out quite OK. It is quite a nice drop. I made it a little understated as I wanted to ease into it to see what it was like. I hopped at 15g 60, 15 & 2 mins. Most other recipes Ive seen so far have gone a lot heavier on the hopping.
Now I have not tasted Columbus, so I have no idea how it compares to the original. I'll not be tossing my Marco Polo. My next attempt I will up the hopping rate to say 20g.
Gunna try the Cluster next in an Aussie Fourex type of beer. Not so confident about the results of this hop given the feedback so far.


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## winkle

The Saaz appears to be quite old stock, I might keep it for Lambics  .


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## clarkey7

winkle said:


> The Saaz appears to be quite old stock, I might keep it for Lambics  .


?? more info Winkle,

How did your brews go with the CHN Saaz?

I was going to use them today........  

I have changed my mind on doing any late Chinese hops though......I've got 60g of Czech Saaz I will use at 15 mins and dry hop...

PB


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## winkle

Pocket Beers said:


> ?? more info Winkle,
> 
> How did your brews go with the CHN Saaz?
> 
> I was going to use them today........
> 
> I have changed my mind on doing any late Chinese hops though......I've got 60g of Czech Saaz I will use at 15 mins and dry hop...
> 
> PB



PB,
was going to do a CAP yesterday/today but changed my mind after playing with them and went for a saison and hefe house beers (mainly since I'm out of stock). The saaz pellets just look (and smell) like old stock, I don't know how much joy you'll get out of dry hopping with them. I'd be inclined to go late rather than DH but good luck. Are you bringing some samples to BABBs?


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## clarkey7

winkle said:


> PB,
> was going to do a CAP yesterday/today but changed my mind after playing with them and went for a saison and hefe house beers (mainly since I'm out of stock). The saaz pellets just look (and smell) like old stock, I don't know how much joy you'll get out of dry hopping with them. I'd be inclined to go late rather than DH but good luck. Are you bringing some samples to BABBs?


For 40L batch, I'm gonna go for 200g of CHN Saaz in Boil and 60g Czech Saaz DH.

I'll be bringing the 60min IPA (All Chinese Cascade) to BABBS.

The BABBS "All Munich" project is using my fermentation fridge and will be in there for another 2 weeks at least. :angry: I hate Lagers... No wonder I never make them.

PB

Edit - Litres


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## browndog

browndog said:


> Hmmm..... if I had to take a guess, I'd say no, but I really hope I'm wrong. I've got it chilling now and it will be ready to drink by saturday week, I'll report back then.




OK I have the beer in front of me now, 120g total hops, no hop aroma at all and a hint of hop flavour that could be anything. Fortunately the acidic aftertaste seems to have eased and I won't have to chuck the keg. This beer is an acceptable lawnmower beer and that is it. 

cheers

Browndog


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## winkle

browndog said:


> OK I have the beer in front of me now, 120g total hops, no hop aroma at all and a hint of hop flavour that could be anything. Fortunately the acidic aftertaste seems to have eased and I won't have to chuck the keg. This beer is an acceptable lawnmower beer and that is it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Mate, if you've got some US cascade make a hop tea in a coffee plunger - ahla Bribie - using about 6gm (5 minutes) and dump in in the keg after mixing in some chilled water. My IPA is quite OKish now.


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## jimi

The IPA I made with MP is a grave disappointment. The bitterness is odd and I agree with the description used by others to call it oily and harsh. It had ample late hopping including a tea ball dropped into the keg. The first pint had some nice floral aroma and I thought it would be OK, but every pint there after has had nudda (save from the small additions of other hops added late). The rest of the MP will now be considered 'compost grade'.

I still have some saaz & cascade but I'm not so keen to try them now and eager for some feedback on them. Cheap hops aint cheap if they waste good malt 

The Cascade is the brownest of the chinese hops I got but Bribie & some have said it's OK for bittering. All the same once bitten twice shy, so I'm keen for those that have tried it to offer more feedback.

I know that there's been a bit of tension with these hops and some post have needed to be cleaned up, but for the 100+ folks that bought them there has been very few constructive comments on them. So come on folks what have you brewed and tasted with these?


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## b_thomas

I'll be using about 18IBU's (20g in 8L) worth of the CHN Saaz in a Fruit Beer tomorrow, I'll let you know how it eventually turns out. Given that it's not a hoppy beer I doubt there's be any ill effects. From most of the feedback using these hops for IPA's or other high IBU:SG ratio beers is probably a bad idea.

I'm quite a pleb when it comes to aromas so I can probably go as far as saying "good" or "bad" in my feedback unless there is something that is abhorrent wafting out of the boiler or fermenter. 

If they are truly bogus then I will pop them in to a paper bag and use them for Lambics/Gueze.


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## DUANNE

so far my experiance with the hops is ,the sazz can make a reasonable beer if not over done on the late additions. it is nothing like cz sazz but really who expected it to be.the cascade i think has an ordinary flavour profile with no aroma but a real plasticky bitternes.by plastic i mean resiny but not in a good way more like drinking a pint of diesel or some thing.


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## b_thomas

b_thomas said:


> I'll be using about 18IBU's (20g in 8L) worth of the CHN Saaz in a Fruit Beer tomorrow, I'll let you know how it eventually turns out. Given that it's not a hoppy beer I doubt there's be any ill effects. From most of the feedback using these hops for IPA's or other high IBU:SG ratio beers is probably a bad idea.
> 
> I'm quite a pleb when it comes to aromas so I can probably go as far as saying "good" or "bad" in my feedback unless there is something that is abhorrent wafting out of the boiler or fermenter.
> 
> If they are truly bogus then I will pop them in to a paper bag and use them for Lambics/Gueze.



Well I'll start with the statement that the jury is still out on the CHN Saaz.

I opened up the bag to get a surprisingly spicy Saaz aroma, (the Cascades I also had a wiff of and were pretty disappointing, brown and lacking any discernable aroma). During the boil there was a subtle but relatively pleasant aroma wafting from the boiler. 

My major disappointment was when I decided to stick my finger in to the leftover wort that remained after syphoning off in to the fermenter. OMFG! it was woeful! an initial hit of bitterness, then a lingering one long after. I have a feeling this may just be my own silliness for sampling trub and hop debris - I'm yet to sample anything out of the fermenter.

I'm left hoping I haven't ruined this beer by using these CHN Saaz.


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## b_thomas

At the expense of double posting I thought I'd give my final update on my CHN Saaz exploration. 

I was really dreading sampling today, so much so I had a litre of orange soda to wash down any nasty flavours. Suffice to say it wasn't needed, aside from being rather overtly yeasty (trying to blame the cats for any current emissions) there were none of the burnt plastic type bitterness I experienced on Saturday.

I will happily continue using my CHN Saaz for beers around the 15-25IBU mark. I think attempting to make a hoppy beer from these hops would be disappointment waiting to happen. 

All in all great value for what you get.


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## Pumpy

Just made a 40L pIlsner with about 220 grams Chinese SaaZ in it and Filtered and into the kegs 

I really think it need lagering a bit more before I can make judgement .

Anyone had experience with this hop ?

Pumpy .


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## lczaban

While I didn't participate in the bulk buy, I had chance to sample BribieG's all Chinese Saaz Aussie Lager. It was pretty passable, although like your brew Pumpy he had to use a bucketload of hops. It may have lacked the finesse of a beer using European hops, but it was pretty pleasant and it was certainly one of the better beers I have tried that have used Chinese hops...

I'll let Bribie comment in due course in his own time...

My 2c


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## Hogan

Pumpy lad.

I used 133 gms of Chinese Saaz in my last 25lt. Boh.Pils. for an IBU of 40. There was no similarity in the taste to any Saaz I have used in the past and when the finished product was green there was a distinct lingering bitterness in the throat. It is now about a month old and the throat bitterness has gone and it is a drinkable beer but in future I will mix my NZ halletauer with it. Whether it was the first use of the WLP830 or something to do with the hops but this was the brightest beer I have ever made, no need for filtering and I always filter my lagers.

Cheers, Hoges.


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## winkle

plus one GG  

That wasn't a bad drop, I'll be knocking out a all c-saaz CAP shortly and will have a talk with BribieG first reguarding the hopping.


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## Pumpy

I must say I am not the greatest fan of Saaz a the best of times , but the beer was drinkable i can get into the kegs quickly as I filter so I perhaps have to wait for this to age a little to comment on it s flavour 

Pumpy


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## TidalPete

Pumpy said:


> I must say I am not the greatest fan of Saaz a the best of times , but the beer was drinkable i can get into the kegs quickly as I filter so I perhaps have to wait for this to age a little to comment on it s flavour
> 
> Pumpy



If you can manage to jump into Franco's wheels & get up to the Kin Kinofest (No affiliation :lol: ) on March 20th you will be able to dump that Chink keg onto unsuspecting Qld hicks & their Qld resident mates.
Don't forget to bring lots of your new stickers mate. :beer: We have been waiting patiently.  

T

PS ---- Don't forget Hogan.


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## Pumpy

TidalPete said:


> If you can manage to jump into Franco's wheels & get up to the Kin Kinofest (No affiliation :lol: ) on March 20th you will be able to dump that Chink keg onto unsuspecting Qld hicks & their Qld resident mates.
> Don't forget to bring lots of your new stickers mate. :beer: We have been waiting patiently.
> 
> T
> 
> PS ---- Don't forget Hogan.



Pete unsure if hogans pacemaker will keep him going He has never been the same since in Mc Donalds they made him a coffe with no beans in the machine ,hell he was pissed off

Pumpy


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## Bribie G

winkle said:


> plus one GG
> 
> That wasn't a bad drop, I'll be knocking out a all c-saaz CAP shortly and will have a talk with BribieG first reguarding the hopping.



I just finished the keg today  and I'll be doing it again, but with far lower bittering hops and some Hersbrucker to finish. As previous posters, not a bad drop for the money. Also I have 900g to wade through  

50g 90 min
30g 20 min
20g 10 min

Next brew:

40g 90 min
15g and 15g Hersbrucker 20 min
20g Hersbrucker 10 min

For a CAP I'd go Amarillo


:icon_cheers:


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## peas_and_corn

I made a beer recently with the Chinese hops- called MP SMASH. recipe-

50L batch

12kg Marris Otter

50g Marco Polo at 60, 15, 10, 5, 0

Belgian strong ale yeast






Overall- it's difficult to separate the yeast flavours form the hop flavours, but it's all right. It's not fantastic- I'd take US Cascade or Centennial over it any day, but the hops are all right. They are grassy (to be expected from a US hop copy) and some citrussy, grapefruity flavours. Interesting stuff.


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## tdh

For a CAP I'd go Amarillo

Amarillo in a CAP? What??? That ain't no place for Amarillo my son.

tdh


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## Bribie G

tdh said:


> For a CAP I'd go Amarillo
> 
> Amarillo in a CAP? What??? That ain't no place for Amarillo my son.
> 
> tdh



OK, Seeing as a CAP (Classic American Pilsener) is intended to be a recreation of the American Pilseners before Prohibition, then what hop would be suitable? What hops did they have pre-1920s and what would the modern equivalents be? I would guess Cluster perhaps?


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## tdh

Not hard to find out. Certainly aint any of them new fangled type hops! Amarillo... seriously.

tdh


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## Bribie G

Probably something quite bland, first hand UK accounts of American beers of the early 20th Century regarded them as being somewhat lacking in flavour. Perhaps the idea that Pre-Prohibition beers represented some sort of lost Paradise are wishful thinking. Ah them good old days when you could get beered up and whored for five dollars. 

Personally I don't like US modern post-1970s craft beers and have no interest in brewing them, but I see Amarillo raved about constantly so suggested it. Obviously wrong. :icon_cheers:


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## tdh

Yep.

tdh


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## Pumpy

Pumpy said:


> I must say I am not the greatest fan of Saaz a the best of times , but the beer was drinkable i can get into the kegs quickly as I filter so I perhaps have to wait for this to age a little to comment on it s flavour
> 
> Pumpy



I made a Pilsner using the Chines Saaz hops 38 IBU's 52 gms ( 3.5%AA) 60 min addition 
28 gms 20 in addittion 
28 gms 10 min addition
28 gms 5 min addition
28 gms flame aout additionn

After 10 days of lagering the beer is mellowing and more drinkable as with all beers you can get use to a beer which is not quite right . after mowing the lawn the other day two schooners were extremely refreshing, but then again so would have been two schooners of cold water .

What I should have done is make exactly the same batch with German Saaz hops to do a side by side taste comparison but that is difficult for me as I dont have two fermentation fridges .

I used a different yeast the Danish Lager yeast 2042 this time .

I am not a great Saaz hop Fan and 38 IBU was quite high IBU for some people in such a simple Pilsner malt only based beer .

So I was relying on the recipe to pull this beer through and good fermentation , I will try again using the German Saaz hops as I am quite happy with the results just unsure if the thingsa that are bugging me are due to the Chinese Saaz.

Pumpy


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## Fourstar

BribieG said:


> OK, Seeing as a CAP (Classic American Pilsener) is intended to be a recreation of the American Pilseners before Prohibition, then what hop would be suitable? What hops did they have pre-1920s and what would the modern equivalents be? I would guess Cluster perhaps?



I'd point to cluster being native to the US from what im led to believe or any other hop varietal that would have been imported across with Ze Germans. Anything noble would be a go-er for me.

Personally i like the idea of using NZ varietals for the following reason. I would assume early hop gardens in the US of A would be noble varietals and most likly open pollinated which may end up with results similar to NZ hops. noble-esque with citrus notes/unique flavours.

Ive done a CAP with Motueka and it was fantastic, especially after a decent lager period. Inital tastes where light citrus with a background spicy/peppery saaz profile. after 2 months it was nothing but clean delicious saazerness.

I wouldnt mind knocking one out with pacific jade or something like Louisiane brewhouses pilsner hopping schedule. This was an awesome beer and would balance well with the cornyness of a CAP.


Pilsner
IBU 32
OG ?
FG ?
EBC: 16
ABV 5%

Ingredients
84% Pilsner Malt Joe White
16% Munich Joe White
(subbing 15-20% corn in here, probably from the pils malt)
Pacific Jade (60min) (guess 27 IBU)
Motoueka (15mins) (guess 5 IBU)
Motoueka (0 min) (guess .5gram/l final volume)
Wyeast Bohemian Lager Yeast

Mash temp 60 - 78 deg is all i could get out of them for all of the beers, maybe its a step/ramp up mash temp? i'd guesstimate 64-66deg for all of them)
Notes: ferment @ 10, ramp to 14, lager @ 0 deg.

Chlorde:sulphate ratio 2:1


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