# Russian Imperial Stout



## arctic78 (29/5/16)

Just put together a RIS ( first ) And have to say I found it a real challenge.
I do not have the rolls Royce of brewing equipment as I believe home brewing should be kept simple and cost effective. I guess if you have the money though go all out. LOL. I managed a OG of 1.105 with grain only and in a 30ltr mash tun . had 1 ltr of space left. done a mash schedual of 15min @ 52 , 70 min @ 68 and 20 @ 76 . My grain to water ratio was 2.6ltr-1kg . 
I have to say though that I had very little sparge water 9.4ltr. was very happy with my efficiency 87 % got 21ltr into the fermentor. I used WLP500 ( trappist ale ) Made a 2 step starter fist step 3ltr then decant and a 2 ltr 2nd starter then decant and cold pitch slurry. Oxygenated with O2 for 5min before pitching and plan on leaving in primary for 3 weeks then move to secondary for 8 weeks . Bottle condition until this time next year. 

I use gelatine to clear my beers in the secondary before bottling with good results . Just takes a little longer to carbonate my beers. but have read a that a lot of people use yeast again before bottling a RIS not sure if this is necessary ??? but would like to know what others that have made these have found with theirs ?

Thanks


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## danestead (30/5/16)

arctic78 said:


> Just put together a RIS ( first ) And have to say I found it a real challenge.
> I do not have the rolls Royce of brewing equipment as I believe home brewing should be kept simple and cost effective. I guess if you have the money though go all out. LOL. I managed a OG of 1.105 with grain only and in a 30ltr mash tun . had 1 ltr of space left. done a mash schedual of 15min @ 52 , 70 min @ 68 and 20 @ 76 . My grain to water ratio was 2.6ltr-1kg .
> I have to say though that I had very little sparge water 9.4ltr. was very happy with my efficiency 87 % got 21ltr into the fermentor. I used WLP500 ( trappist ale ) Made a 2 step starter fist step 3ltr then decant and a 2 ltr 2nd starter then decant and cold pitch slurry. Oxygenated with O2 for 5min before pitching and plan on leaving in primary for 3 weeks then move to secondary for 8 weeks . Bottle condition until this time next year.
> 
> ...


5 mins of O2 is a heck of a lot more than people usually use (not that I know anyone who measures their dissolved oxygen content). For a RIS type OG, I do 1 minute of O2 when pitching the yeast and then another 1 minute at 8-12 hours.

I pitched some extra yeast at bottling stage however this was an insurance policy for me; I didn't want to waste the 6 hour brew day and a month of fermenting to find out it didn't carbonate. I can't say whether the additional yeast was required or not though, sorry.


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## arctic78 (30/5/16)

I know 5min seems a lot but I done some looking around and from what I found in a few spots 5 min was recommended for pure 02 with beers with a high OG to get the right environment for the yeast to reproduce. They said 10min if just using an aquarium pump.
They also mentioned about the second dose of 02 at around the high krausen time which is what you are doing when you say 8-12 hours I guess.
As I said this is my first RIS so maybe I went longer on the 02 than needed but after all the time and money spent on ingredients I really want it to ferment out well .
I am seriously thinking about using more yeast come bottling time as I also want it to carb up.
So how did you add your yeast a bottling time?

Thanks.


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## Grainer (30/5/16)

Syringe with CB-1


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## danestead (30/5/16)

arctic78 said:


> I know 5min seems a lot but I done some looking around and from what I found in a few spots 5 min was recommended for pure 02 with beers with a high OG to get the right environment for the yeast to reproduce. They said 10min if just using an aquarium pump.
> They also mentioned about the second dose of 02 at around the high krausen time which is what you are doing when you say 8-12 hours I guess.
> As I said this is my first RIS so maybe I went longer on the 02 than needed but after all the time and money spent on ingredients I really want it to ferment out well .
> I am seriously thinking about using more yeast come bottling time as I also want it to carb up.
> ...


When I made my yeast starter, I poured a portion of the yeast from the wyeast packet into a sanitised vial and kept it in the fridge. I added this to the bulk-priming vessel during the process of priming and bottling. This isn't the best way to add fresh yeast as the inactive yeast would have had a hard time springing to life in the high alcohol environment however between that and the original yeast in the beer, it carbed up. It was just an insurance policy after all.


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## HBHB (31/5/16)

Lallemand CBC-1 yeast is the ducks nuts in big beers where the original yeast is clapped out and suffering alcohol toxicity.

I usually re-pitch a bit higher than might be necessary, but half a pack rehydrated in 50ml of water at 32 degrees and allow it to work it's way through the batch once a bunch of the beer is transferred to the bottling vessel with a bulk prime of Dextrose. These typically carb up in about 5-7 days at that rate with 100% success rate. Clean, neutral and 100% reliable.

Hope that helps.

Martin


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## Markbeer (1/6/16)

I think adding yeast is better.

I had to rotate bottles twice daily to get them to carb up. The beer was 14%.


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## Killer Brew (1/6/16)

arctic78 said:


> I know 5min seems a lot but I done some looking around and from what I found in a few spots 5 min was recommended for pure 02 with beers with a high OG to get the right environment for the yeast to reproduce. They said 10min if just using an aquarium pump.
> They also mentioned about the second dose of 02 at around the high krausen time which is what you are doing when you say 8-12 hours I guess.


I will preface this comment by saying I'm not an expert in high gravity brewing. 8 - 12 hours would be well before high krausen. Still I would be wary of adding any O2 after the start of fermentation as you reduce the time spent by the yeast metabolising anaerobically. I would prefer to go with a larger starter instead.


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## Yob (1/6/16)

8-12 hours is smack on when to give a second dose, yeast can't breed without oxygen and you need a LOT of yeast for RIS. 

I aim for the 12 hour mark.


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## Killer Brew (1/6/16)

I stand corrected.


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## droid (1/6/16)

yep - zero carbonation here after a three month barrel age, fortunately i have c02


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## Mardoo (1/6/16)

Barrels can be water tight but are never gas tight. Hence the angel's share.


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## droid (1/6/16)

yes indeed and indeedly i didn't explain that very well, as ususal...

3 months conditioning, at the end some was transferred to kegs some bottled with sugar...the ones bottled with sugar didn't do nothin in terms of carbonate


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## danestead (1/6/16)

Yob said:


> 8-12 hours is smack on when to give a second dose, yeast can't breed without oxygen and you need a LOT of yeast for RIS.
> 
> I aim for the 12 hour mark.


Yep, the idea is to add extra oxygen after the yeast has split/reproduced once.


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## arctic78 (1/6/16)

Heaps of tips, Great.Thanks.
@ danestead thanks for your advise on the coffee addition and the what you did when using the yeast for bottling.
I will leave the coffee right untill the last thing before bottling. Thinking of buying a new glass secondary fermentor so i can age it i there for as long as possible before bottling..

@ everyone else... THanks for the tips . Will use CBC-1 at time of bottling from what you guys have said about it and also next time i think i will hit with a second round of co2 at the 8-12 hour mark.

Making this style of beer i think will be a once a year thing for me Maybe twice if ever i get enough fermentors but having kids chews in to hobby money LOL. I guess now i just got to be patient and see how this turns out.


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## danestead (2/6/16)

arctic78 said:


> Heaps of tips, Great.Thanks.
> @ danestead thanks for your advise on the coffee addition and the what you did when using the yeast for bottling.
> I will leave the coffee right untill the last thing before bottling. Thinking of buying a new glass secondary fermentor so i can age it i there for as long as possible before bottling..
> 
> ...


I do love coffee and I have just put a batch of cold brew in the fridge so I can drink it in the morning however I made no mention regarding coffee in your RIS on this page. I think you must be wanting to thank someone else!


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## arctic78 (2/6/16)

This lack of sleep is starting to make me miss heaps of things and mix them up . How much fun a new born is :blink: sorry about that.


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## danestead (2/6/16)

arctic78 said:


> This lack of sleep is starting to make me miss heaps of things and mix them up . How much fun a new born is :blink: sorry about that.


I've got a new born in a couple of weeks. My partner asked me what I was doing the other day on the computer.

I said "trying to figure out when I can brew when this baby comes."
She said "the baby comes first."
I said "this brew is for the royal show."
She kind of grumbled then worked out a day I'm 'allowed' to brew


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## Yob (3/6/16)

With regard to your o2, it's not just time thing, it's also the flow rate and you can have too much, from memory without looking it up, above 12ppm isn't great for the yeast and, also from memory, 2mins at 2l/min in a 23l batch gets you there.

Food fo thought and an area to research perhaps.

Cheers


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## arctic78 (3/6/16)

@Yob
Ok thanks . I don't have a reg yet but i have been working on just getting a steady but gentle bubbling at the top of the batch.
have to do more research for sure but time , as always , Is hard to come by at the moment.

@danestead
best of luck with the royal show and with getting the time to brew. if i am lucky i can get 1 brew in a month if all the stars align :lol:
Just enough to keep me topped up with beer to drink


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## skb (23/8/16)

Guys I did a RIS on weekend and realised I stuffed the O2 only did 10seconds... Not sure what i was thinking ..... This was Saturday and as species it is fermenting but not crazy so worried it will not get there. I am away is it too late to do a second addition of O2 on day 6 (I am away right now)


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## Yob (23/8/16)

probably yes, implications are it may struggle to finish.

get fermenting something like a mid so you can dump it onto the cake if need be. has worked for me in the past and is a better option.


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## skb (23/8/16)

That sounds like a plan as the RIS can go a while will do another fairly generic beer and then dump the RIS on it which will probably be day 14 of the RIS.. I assume that is what you meant


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## Yob (25/8/16)

skb said:


> That sounds like a plan as the RIS can go a while will do another fairly generic beer and then dump the RIS on it which will probably be day 14 of the RIS.. I assume that is what you meant


yep, when the RIS slow or stops, its handy to have a cake at the ready... dont collect any yeast from both, the initial RIS yeast will be in bad health and the cake will do its job but be destroyed in the process.. 

the RIS wont care


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (25/8/16)

I did mine (albeit it was _only_ 1.085 from memory) with skimmed krausen from a mild at high krausen.

Took off like a rocket.


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## Moad (25/8/16)

Just drink it flat


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## dannymars (25/8/16)

what are you guys finishing at for a RIS?

my last one finished @ 1.020... but tastes fantastic, so I guess that's right. Beersmith estimated 1.018, so not far off.


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## Yob (25/8/16)

dannymars said:


> what are you guys finishing at for a RIS?
> 
> my last one finished @ 1.020... but tastes fantastic, so I guess that's right. Beersmith estimated 1.018, so not far off.


last one I did finished at 1.030 but well balanced so you dont notice it... down from 1.135 so was actually right on style (pfft) guidlines.. well, at least the maximum bit of the guidelines anyway...


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## skb (25/8/16)

I have noticed some blogs say add champagne yeast towards the end... It doesn't sound right to me I thought that would be too dry. Are all of the above just using normal beer yeast ?


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## Yob (25/8/16)

there are a LOT more simple sugars in Champagne, hence it gets to a drier state.. 

its just the alcohol tolerance and the fact that RIS can get well beyond the threshold of normal beer yeast ~%10-12

yeast management is critical on RIS's, heaps of oxygen at the start, careful temperature management.. and a bloody backup plan...


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## Killer Brew (25/8/16)

Got my last one down to 1017 using nottingham.


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## Yob (25/8/16)

Killer Brew said:


> Got my last one down to 1017 using nottingham.


from?


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## Killer Brew (25/8/16)

Sorry. From around 1085. Lower end of OG for the category


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## Mardoo (25/8/16)

skb said:


> I have noticed some blogs say add champagne yeast towards the end... It doesn't sound right to me I thought that would be too dry. Are all of the above just using normal beer yeast ?


I've found the champagne yeast strips a lot of flavour. Not what I'd use. I quite like the White Labs Super High Gravity, but there are plenty of yeasts you could use.


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## skb (25/8/16)

Yob said:


> there are a LOT more simple sugars in Champagne, hence it gets to a drier state..
> 
> its just the alcohol tolerance and the fact that RIS can get well beyond the threshold of normal beer yeast ~%10-12
> 
> yeast management is critical on RIS's, heaps of oxygen at the start, careful temperature management.. and a bloody backup plan...


Yes sadly I stuffed the oxygen amount up did 10 seconds only (no idea why) hence the scramble to backup plan (the good thing is the fermenter is still bubbling along but I expect it to die out way to early.. Yeast cake is one backup plan my other thought was a yeast top up. I have yeast 4347 Extreme Fermentation pack (no idea why) but fearful of using this. Another backup I was thinking of doing a starter and pitching that.


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## skb (25/8/16)

Mardoo said:


> I've found the champagne yeast strips a lot of flavour. Not what I'd use. I quite like the White Labs Super High Gravity, but there are plenty of yeasts you could use.


Thanks ! I will rule champagne yeast out then


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## Yob (25/8/16)

Cake is better, I've had touched getting starters to get a foot hold at the place you're at


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## Mardoo (25/8/16)

This is true. It's a suicide pitch at this point. When I pitched the Super High Grav at a similar point it took 2 weeks for the beer to move a point, and another 2 for it to finish up.


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## skb (25/8/16)

I actually have a Irish Red Ale fermenting on WLP004 do you think that is a good cake to use ? I was worried it may add too much fruit into the mix but I notice it's heritage is Stout. Do you guys have any experience with this yeast ?


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## Yob (25/8/16)

Unless it was super hoppy, probably won't matter in a RIS too much, I'm not overly familiar with using the yeast but you aren't aiming for yeast character at that point so dumping at the lower end of the temp scale is what I'd do if it was all I had on hand, raise it a degree a day after the first 24hrs


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## Coldspace (25/8/16)

My first RIS I've done I've been happy with results. Started at 1.15. , finished at 1028-29 just under 30. Used 2 x 3 ltr stepped up 1084 starters, and really aerated the shit out of it for 3 mins with a paint stirrer as I was not into oxygen then.

Tastes good out of keg, bottle conditioning 16 tallies with reseeded CBC 1.

Knock out of a drink, going to do it again but diff receipe now I've got oxygen.


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## fishingbrad (26/8/16)

Is that a recipe for the GF Coldspace ? care to share it ?


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## skb (26/8/16)

Have any of you used a Barrel to age you RIS, that is my plan but in effect doing primary in carboy and secondary in the Barrel. I have gathered this from lots of looking around on the internet but the information is limited to say the least some appear to say secondary in the Barrel some seem to say age, none seem to say do the whole fermentation in the Barrel ? I am a little surprised that you cannot do primary in the barrel, I assume this is off flavours from sitting on the yeast cake for an extended period. 

Sorry for the ramblings but the questions in my head are :

1) Secondary in Barrel is that the right approach 
2) Should I potentially go to the Barrel early in the Primary (eg after day 5-7 when still super active but a lot of crap already fallen out
3) Is there another approach ... 
4) Any other pointers, I am thinking of putting CO2 in the Barrel as I fill it to minimikse damage to the beer but in reality by aging in the Barrel there will be a level of oxidation I would imagine regardless. 


PS thanks for all the help so far.


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## malt junkie (26/8/16)

The words RIS and Barrel are usually accompanied by the user name Yob. If he doesn't respond here pm is your friend.


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## drsmurto (26/8/16)

I've been barrel ageing RISssss for a few years. I add a lager yeast to the barrel to chew through a few more points and lager it through the winter. Rack to barrel when primary is done.

No point adding CO2 as a barrel is not air tight. I add potassium metabisulfite as more of an insurance policy. Not enough to protect against brett as the pH is too high for an achievable level of molecular SO2.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (26/8/16)

Further to the comments on re-starting a stuck ferment above, the late great Dr Paul Monk of the AWRI literally wrote the book on this.

His technique is based on halving and doubling:

Make a new culture of an appropriate yeast in a fermentable medium (sugars predominantly glucose, lots of YAN) and oxygenate the christ out of it.

When this culture gets halfway between OG and LG, add an equal volume of the stuck ferment and measure the blend Present Gravity (PG).

When the blend gets to halfway between PG and LG, double it again.

Keep doing this until the entire stuck ferment is blended in.

A good starter culture volume is 1/32 of the volume of the ferment to be rescued, requiring five* halving and doubling steps. Generally takes about four to five days.


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## skb (26/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> I've been barrel ageing RISssss for a few years. I add a lager yeast to the barrel to chew through a few more points and lager it through the winter. Rack to barrel when primary is done.
> 
> No point adding CO2 as a barrel is not air tight. I add potassium metabisulfite as more of an insurance policy. Not enough to protect against brett as the pH is too high for an achievable level of molecular SO2.


 I actually have some potassium metabisulfite do your remember how much you used, by the sounds of it you use less than wine makers use.


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## dannymars (26/8/16)

I recommend keeping a clean non-barrel portion of the RIS for blending later if the wood character gets too high. Nothing worse than beer that tastes like chewing a door frame!


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## drsmurto (26/8/16)

I use 50mg/L of PMS.


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## Coldspace (26/8/16)

fishingbrad said:


> Is that a recipe for the GF Coldspace ? care to share it ?


Sure mate, I'll put it up over the weekend when I get a chance..


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## manticle (27/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> I use 50mg/L of PMS.


Do you often find yourself lashing out at your partner or feeling sad for no discernible reason?


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## Brewman_ (27/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> I've been barrel ageing RISssss for a few years. I add a lager yeast to the barrel to chew through a few more points and lager it through the winter. Rack to barrel when primary is done.
> 
> No point adding CO2 as a barrel is not air tight. I add potassium metabisulfite as more of an insurance policy. Not enough to protect against brett as the pH is too high for an achievable level of molecular SO2.


Hi DrSmurto,

I like the sound of that. What final gravity do you achieve? I would think the different yeast would do a range of things including bringing down the FG. Pre barrel and post barrel?

What sort of barrels?

Cheers Steve


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## drsmurto (27/8/16)

Brewman_ said:


> Hi DrSmurto,
> 
> I like the sound of that. What final gravity do you achieve? I would think the different yeast would do a range of things including bringing down the FG. Pre barrel and post barrel?
> 
> ...


I decided on this method after tasting a RIS brewed by a winemaker. Amazing! So smooth but rich and stouty. After talking about it with him i started to understand how brewing and winemaking techniques can be combined. 

So the barrel ageing on yeast lees serves a few purposes. Firstly, lager yeasts generally ferment more sugars than ale yeasts. This helps to lower the FG. Secondly you get some of the richness associated with barrel ageing wine on lees. The creaminess of a chardonnay for example. There is also the added bonus of having the extra yeast to help come bottling time. The beer is a collaboration so each brewer takes home their portion and some bottle. The reports are they carbonate well without additional yeast. I keg as i don't have sadomasochistic tendencies.

@manticle - coffee up the nose as a result of your comment! Literal lol.

I normally aim to get the FG down to low 20s, high teens if possible, depending on OG. 

The barrels i use are 100L Yalumba 'Octavius' used for Yalumba's top shiraz. I get them high pressure hot washed each year at a winery and when not in use over summer, they contain a sulfite holding solution. So far none have developed any brett or other unwanted organisms.


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## Coldspace (28/8/16)

fishingbrad said:


> Is that a recipe for the GF Coldspace ? care to share it ?


here it is mate, got a few ideas from other receipes, but tweaked it abit for the GF and from some ingredients I had on hand. Its turned out excellent after 2 months in keg, real night capper lol, Ive named it "Russian nuclear stout" lol....

3.5 kg pale malt
3.5 kg pilsner
0.5 kg Brown malt
0.5 kg chocolate malt
0.5 kg roasted barley
0.5 kg oats

= 9 kgs of grains for mash ( max for grain father), into grain father with 23 ltrs of water at 66 for 90 mins.
Mashout at 78 for 20 mins.
Sparge till GF is full to top, about 32 litres 
Boil for 30 mins,
hops,
100 grms pride Ringwood 60 mins
Add into boil 1.5 kg of Muscovado sugar , 20 mins to boost grav and add nice flavour.
whirlflock at 15 mins
1.5 tsp yeast nutrient at 10 mins
50 grms of Centennial hops at 10 mins
50 grms of cascade at 5 mins

Optional extra: I did add into a hop spider 200 grms of plain licorich pieces in the last 10 mins. Only the flavour strips off, leaving the jelly in the bottom of the spider. We can taste just a hint in the back ground of the RIS, it seems to suit it but don't add it if you don't want to. This receipe is one I'm going to tweak here and there.

Ferment the 24-25 ltr batch with oxygenated wort and 2 x 2.5 ltr stepped starters of irish ale 1084 at 20 c till final grav. I don't own a 5 ltr flask, so made up 2 x 2.5 ltr ones decanted down to half ltr each, swirled and pitched in.

Keg or bottle with reseaded CBC 1 yeast.



Ive done this receipe once and its now coming out of the 9 ltr keg real nice after 2 months. first few weeks was very strong, but 2 months in its getting really morish, cant help myself  surprised a few mates with it last night , gave them a night cap before their lovely understanding wives took them away from me, but they wanted another before going home last night. They prob were asleep before they got home lol after a heap of other beers then RIS to finish the night,lol . They prob wont be allowed back here for abit  I'm Going to leave the glass bottles to age for a year, but the plastic bottle I did , has gone hard now so I know the CBC 1 reseeded yeast has worked a treat on carbing this bad boy up.

The Muscovado sugar is a type of brown sugar you get in the supermarket, real nice addition to get the grav up.
My first batch started at 1.115 and finished just shy of 1.03. This was without oxygen just really stiring it up well plus massive pitch of yeast. I think oxygen would help get it down into the 1.020 range which would be good. But I'm still happy with it.
I wouldn't want to drink anything heavier lol, its smooth, strong yet the 11% is hardly there on taste, but it hits hard after 2 glasses. lol

Cheers


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## skb (30/8/16)

Good news is 10 days on the Fermenter is still bubbling away strongly so my fears my have been unfounded, interested to see how long it lasts I am very keen to get it as low as possible and over 10% ABV. It is a bit like a new born I can't help but keep checking on it, morning and night I think I may have some sort of mental problem.


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## Brownsworthy (7/1/17)

In Russia the porn f#cks you.


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