# Power demands on household electrics



## philistine (19/5/17)

Have any of you guys had to upgrade your household electricals to handle your brewing setups?
What did it involve? 
What did it cost? 
How many amps are you drawing?

Ive only just realised that the brew rig ive designed is gonna draw 22.5 amps when its in full swing (a 2400w urn plus a 3000w element).
Even if i was to somehow (not sure how) configure it so that only one element was in use at a time, there's still the issue of a 12.5amp load when the 3kw element is running.

At the bare minimum, i think im gonna need to have a 15amp powerpoint - but thats gonna suck as it means i cant use the rig properly.

I know 25amp powerpoints exist, but then there's the risk that the existing house wiring will be inadequate and ill need new wiring to handle it.

Im bummed, coz this is a pretty major spanner in the works 

Kinda also illustrates that if i know zero things about electricity (ie. sorcery) and if i did i probably would have worked this out before buying all the stuff for my current design 
(no pun intended.... but now that ive noticed it - pretty good huh? Eh? Eh?!)


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## philistine (19/5/17)

In the time it took me to type that, i pieced together a possible solution, but as im not a sorcerer, im not sure if itd work.
If I downgraded my 3kw element to one that was 2.4kw or lower and then redesigned my control panel to have separate power inputs for the two elements, i should be able to run it off two standard household powerpoints yeah? 
I mean, itd be a large load, but surely the stock standard household wiring could handle it.....? Itd be just like running a toaster and a microwave or a kettle at the same time yeah?


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## earle (19/5/17)

Toaster, microwave and kettle are generally only run for short periods of time - probably a bit different to the extended drawing of power for brewing. Your solution would probably work better if the 2 powerpoints used were on separate circuits - need to identify if you have more than one powerpoint circuit, which points are on each circuit and maybe involve the use of a long extension - a long extension could be an issue if not a suitable grade though.


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## klangers (19/5/17)

You're sailing very close to the wind indeed, and this is the exact reason why I moved from electric to gas on the kettle. I still have an electric HLT and HERMS.

Your household wiring will cause an unacceptably high voltage drop and in turn get rather hot. If you have insulation in your walls or ceiling then the cables can catch fire as they can't dissipate the heat fast enough.

After 15 amps I believe you'll need to move to 3 phase.I haven't seen a single phase GPO bigger than 15 amps, but I could well be wrong. I've taken a stab at the costing. I estimate costs for industrial stuff, so I might be way out.

Assuming the supply to your residence has enough oomph, you're talking a new circuit from your meter box, including:

New CB and RCD - 40 amps ($100)
Modify wiring in meter box and fit CB/RCD ($300)
Run new cable to brewery, including all conduits and cable supports to suit ($2000)
Supply and install new 15 amp socket x2 ($150)


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (19/5/17)

http://agmelectrical.com.au/power-points/transco-power-point.html

Not common and require special installation but they exist.


klangers said:


> I haven't seen a single phase GPO bigger than 15 amps, but I could well be wrong.


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## fdsaasdf (19/5/17)

I'd suggest downgrading your 3kW element to 2.4kW so you can run it off two standard 10A circuits as the simplest and least expensive option. I do this for my kettle & HERMS which both run 2.4kW elements.


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## mofox1 (19/5/17)

klangers said:


> You're sailing very close to the wind indeed, and this is the exact reason why I moved from electric to gas on the kettle. I still have an electric HLT and HERMS.
> 
> Your household wiring will cause an unacceptably high voltage drop and in turn get rather hot. If you have insulation in your walls or ceiling then the cables can catch fire as they can't dissipate the heat fast enough.
> 
> ...


Damn... Never knew how lucky I was to have an existing 40A line out to the garage.

I just have to include this in the "cost of moving" if/when we move. Because if I can't brew there, I ain't going.


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## klangers (19/5/17)

Yeah, you can see why the availability and capacity of industrial utilities are often the first thing to limit a brewery's output. 

A single refrigeration compressor at a large brewery can easily draw 400A on its own.


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## Zorco (19/5/17)

philistine said:


> In the time it took me to type that, i pieced together a possible solution, but as im not a sorcerer, im not sure if itd work.
> If I downgraded my 3kw element to one that was 2.4kw or lower and then redesigned my control panel to have separate power inputs for the two elements, i should be able to run it off two standard household powerpoints yeah?
> I mean, itd be a large load, but surely the stock standard household wiring could handle it.....? Itd be just like running a toaster and a microwave or a kettle at the same time yeah?


2x 2.4kW is easier

Breakers and fuses protect the cables. If the circuit you're going to use has been installed by a qualified person then have a go.

You'll trip on overcurrent and the wires will be fine. That will indicate that you have lower capacity then you need.

Otherwise you're fine to run indefinitely. 

Volt drop is a function of conductor diameter.


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## philistine (19/5/17)

Thanks dudes.
So im definitely gonna change the controller to suit two separate power inputs.
I had a chat with our local sparky and he's gonna suss out my switch board first.
From there , if our supply wiring is good enough, he suggested running a new 32 amp circuit with 2x 15amp outlets.
At a guess he estimated 2 hours plus parts....


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## klangers (19/5/17)

philistine said:


> Thanks dudes.
> So im definitely gonna change the controller to suit two separate power inputs.
> I had a chat with our local sparky and he's gonna suss out my switch board first.
> From there , if our supply wiring is good enough, he suggested running a new 32 amp circuit with 2x 15amp outlets.
> At a guess he estimated 2 hours plus parts....


Good stuff. 

Yeah with cable pulling the devil really is in the detail. Can be really quick (and cheap) if it's an area with good access. If it's a rabbit warren or a long run, it's going to take a lot longer


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## philistine (19/5/17)

Yeah fingers crossed itll be simple. Its going to our back deck area outdoors, so im thinking itd be fairly simple, maybe they could even run the whole length externally......

Best part is im also gunna run workshop tools from the same outlets when not brewing, so its gonna be a "business expense" [emoji41]


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## Thefatdoghead (11/10/17)

Old thread but ill throw up my info for others.

My house has an 80 amp main circuit breaker and everything runs of that.
I needed 53 or so amps while running 2 5500 watt elements.
I ran a 16mm2 cable (twin earth) to a sub board that I added a 63 amp RCD too.
Out at the brewery ill have another sub board with a 63 amp circuit breaker and hard wire the main power to this.
The power plug for the control panel will hang from the suboard and go into the brewery control panel.


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## husky (11/10/17)

Mine is similar, I ran a 15A point to the shed when we moved in using a 6mm core cable pair from memory, this runs to a sub board in the shed with RCD's. I'm about to run a 16mm pair to the same board for a 60A circuit to run the new brewery. The 16mm cable is approx. $3/m and you need to run 2 plus an earth which is smaller maybe 4mm cant remember. So I budgeted $8/m for cable(A + N + E). Then it's just a sparky for a few hrs and some RCD's.

Regarding higher amp power points, I just use 63A rated 3 phase points and connect only one of the actives as I'm still single phase.
I cheat since my brother is a sparky and buy the cable at wholesale and run it from point to point and get my brother to make the terminations which saves most of the labour cost.

FYI anyone thinking 3 phase I have been quoted $1k to get the house board upgraded and the inspector out, seriously considering it as with the whole brewery running there wont be any power left for the house! 3 phase will also allow HLT, MT, HERMS and Kettle to all run at the same time which would be handy.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (11/10/17)

FWIW I talked about this with the industrial specialist sparky who looks after our electrics at the winery and his advice was that if you get three phase from the get go when building a new house it only costs a couple of hundred extra. They simply run three phase wiring to a 3 phase main board and the cost differential is small.

Not much use if you've already built with single phase but I'm looking to build on a bare block soon so it was useful advice for me.


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## koshari (11/10/17)

I jave actually got 2 extra 16mm sdi,s running from my switchboard to the point of attachment but have never pulled the trigger on upgrading the switchboard.


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## wynnum1 (11/10/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> FWIW I talked about this with the industrial specialist sparky who looks after our electrics at the winery and his advice was that if you get three phase from the get go when building a new house it only costs a couple of hundred extra. They simply run three phase wiring to a 3 phase main board and the cost differential is small.
> 
> Not much use if you've already built with single phase but I'm looking to build on a bare block soon so it was useful advice for me.


When you have 3 phase do you pay extra supply charges .


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