# Where is the stout head?



## Mat B (11/4/17)

Hey fellas,

With winter coming up quickly, I want to brew a nice toasty stout to keep me warm and happy! Last year I brewed an oatmeal stout am very happy with the flavor (could be a bit toastier though), the beer holds no head. Lasts about 10 seconds. I did some reading and a few people said that oats are oily and may impact head, but not sure if this is the case.

Here’s the details:

21L batch – Brewed BIAB
½ tablespoon gypsum in mash
65 deg 90 min mash
Sparged with 80deg water poured over grains

Ale Malt – 3.6 kg
Crystal 150 – 400g
Black Patent Malt – 300g
Chocolate Malt 1200 – 300g
Quick Oats – 500g

Target 20g – 60 mins
Northdown 7g – 60 mins

Irish Ale Yeast WLP004 – Fermented at 18deg
Bulk primed with dextrose for 2.2 vol CO2
OG – 1.054
FG – 1.018


Does anyone have any insights they could share? I really want to brew a kick arse stout with a nice creamy head. Welcome recipe ideas too. And before anyone replies to say that having no head is normal or fine - I don’t enjoy it. 

Cheers!


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## klangers (11/4/17)

Oats if anything should ADD to the head because of their protein that they bring to the table.

How did you cook/use the oats?


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## good4whatAlesU (11/4/17)

no roast barley??


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## Bribie G (11/4/17)

Porridge oats are whole oats that have been rolled after removal of the oat bran.
However they are not de-germed.

So they have a high oil content, up to 18% but more typically about 4%.
Oils kill head.

In brewing they tended to use de-germed oats for example during the second world war when barley was in short supply and they needed adjuncts. However supermarket oats aren't the same as the old school brewing oats.

I'd tend to use flaked wheat if you are looking for a raw adjunct as it has been de-germed (to yield the oily wheat germ).

edit: not sure about flaked barley, MHB might know.


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## Mat B (11/4/17)

Good responses so far!

Yes, I used supermarket quick oats. I did too much research, you know the kind where you find arguments supporting both views, then you end up picking the one that is easiest for you - ie. quick oats. Maybe that's my problem.

I just threw them in the mash from memory. 

Should roast barley be a given in a stout bill? I think I copied an oatmeal stout recipe found online.


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## good4whatAlesU (11/4/17)

Was just kidding, the black patent and other dark grains will get the job done. I'm just a sucker for roast barley...mmm

Slightly off topic; "Stout' originally just meant 'strong' and could be applied to any type of beer.


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## pnorkle (11/4/17)

Mat B said:


> I used supermarket quick oats. I did too much research, you know the kind where you find arguments supporting both views, then you end up picking the one that is easiest for you - ie. quick oats. Maybe that's my problem.


This pretty much describes what I did on the weekend with a stout - except I used rolled whole oats Ah well, I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks or so if there's no head... not that I'm fussed of course, as long as it goes down well


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## rude (11/4/17)

Mate you need head & Im sure you will get some 

Good luck


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## Mat B (11/4/17)

rude said:


> Mate you need head & Im sure you will get some
> 
> Good luck


Here's hoping!


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## pnorkle (11/4/17)

rude said:


> Mate you need head & Im sure you will get some
> 
> Good luck


Mate, I dunno... been a bit quiet around here lately...


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## mr_wibble (13/4/17)

I made an oatmeal stout recently, it turned out quite nice with lots of head.
I used porridge oats, which I cooked on the stove until they were a goopy, then threw into the mash. 
The porridge made up about 17% of the grist.

Some things I've read say you can just mash rolled ingredients, since the heating part of rolling process pre-gelatinises them.
I was unsure, so proceeded on the side of caution, pre-cooking.

Anyway, I have no problems with head on the beer. 

How was the carbonation?
Could there be some residual detergent/oils on the glassware? (rinse! rinse! and rinse again!)


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## Danscraftbeer (13/4/17)

Mat B said:


> Yes, I used supermarket quick oats. I did too much research, you know the kind where you find arguments supporting both views, then you end up picking the one that is easiest for you - ie. quick oats. Maybe that's my problem.


I cant point to the info right now but there is some reason why you should not use quick oats. I cant actually remember the details.
Whole rolled oats baked/toasted in the oven works a treat from my experience. even as high as 10+%.


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## damoninja (13/4/17)

When using oats I always add some wheat or carapils to even things out in the protein department.


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## Stouter (13/4/17)

One in the FV now that's getting bottled today.
I was very cautious with the rolled oats and only added a very small % to my usual grain bill.
I'm not real keen on head or much carbonation in my Stouts, and don't mind either if the serving temp isn't chilled or cold.


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## Bribie G (13/4/17)

damoninja said:


> When using oats I always add some wheat or carapils to even things out in the protein department.


Yes, agreed. Oats don't inevitably kill your head, depends if they are low oil and you have extra proteins in the brew. I'm sure it's on the forum somewhere - written by someone in the industry - that quick oats are made from a different grade of oats to the top range porridge oats such as Uncle Tobys etc.

The top range people get the pick and the quick oats grade can be variable I think.


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## damoninja (13/4/17)

Bribie G said:


> Yes, agreed. Oats don't inevitably kill your head, depends if they are low oil and you have extra proteins in the brew. I'm sure it's on the forum somewhere - written by someone in the industry - that quick oats are made from a different grade of oats to the top range porridge oats such as Uncle Tobys etc.
> 
> The top range people get the pick and the quick oats grade can be variable I think.


Makes sense, I've used the shitty cheap home brand ones as well as some more better ones couldn't really comment either way as they were different beers. 

Sometimes I toast them, I notice under a heavy toast some of them sweat a little which can then be blotted away.

Oils and fats are definately killers of head. Worst foam I ever had on a beer was a chocolate stout with too much cocoa added to the boil, the fat content even prevented a krausen from forming in the fermenter. Ended up with a thin white ring of fatty solids around the edge of the fermenter and every bottle.


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## Jack of all biers (13/4/17)

damoninja said:


> Worst foam I ever had on a beer was a chocolate stout with too much cocoa added to the boil, the fat content even prevented a krausen from forming in the fermenter. Ended up with a thin white ring of fatty solids around the edge of the fermenter and every bottle.


Jeez, how much cocoa did you use on that one? Would be good to know a "do not exceed" level if we're ever tempted to use it.


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## IsonAd (16/4/17)

Stouts are my head nemesis too (well that and ginger hair). I dont know what i do, but most of my stouts, be them oat, foreign, Tropical, irish, american etc i almost always suffer from lack of head. It's almost as if the wort elopes before entering the fv. ive also noticed a lack of krausen on a lot of them too (supposedly not correlated at all to head). I wonder of it's ph related but yet to test.


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## Stouter (16/4/17)

IsonAd said:


> Tropical, irish, american etc.


What's your tropical version entail?
Just the one reply is fine.


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## Stouter (16/4/17)

This isn't working for either of us is it.
Is the tropical version carrying some fruit?


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## IsonAd (17/4/17)

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3448-tropical-stout-style-profile

Similar to foreign extra


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## IsonAd (17/4/17)

Yep definitely struggling.


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## Danscraftbeer (17/4/17)

I always do the old style mashing. Infusions and a decoction. 50c-protien rest, then Saccarif, then decoctions for 70c+ mash out. Theory being its good for less modified grains.
Since Oats are not modified I think the steps do help. I get much better head retention doing this for all my beers now.
Also many people skim froth off the boil. I don't believe in doing that. I feel it adds to good head character as well? that's debatable I guess.


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## Mat B (19/4/17)

The carbonation on mine was on the lower side. I typically don't mine lower carb on ales and stouts. I'm sure that's not the cause. 

Sounds like most people are saying to toast or cook the oats first. Now that I really think of it, it may have even been rolled oats. I better check. It was definitely cheap homebrand rubbish though. 

What's the real benefit from using oats? Maybe it's just easier to leave them out of the next one and use wheat and carapils maybe? Or at least get some decent whole rolled oats and bake them.


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## Danscraftbeer (19/4/17)

Benefit is its a good rounding off flavour. Smooth body and mouth feel even if you finish with a low gravity which is my usual habit.
I've got this Porter that I kegged and bottled some off for longer lagering conditioning. It finished at 1.010 but you would sware its finished higher than that considering the nice smooth body it has. I don't think anything would be closely equal substitute to rolled oats.
Checking records of that Porter I didn't roast them that time and It was 13% of the grain bill. I usually roast them (not too much or they don't smell nice if you over roast them) just for more toasty flavour.


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## Stouter (19/4/17)

Would toasting contribute to darker colour, or not be noticeable/measurable when already using a typical stout grain bill?


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## Dan Pratt (19/4/17)

2 things.

1st - make sure you always rinse the glassware before filling with beer, too often they have been in the dishwasher and that leaves a residue which kills head. Pretty sure that's not the issue buy worth a mention. 

2nd - 72c rest for foam formation, the oats will contribute to foam and that rest will amplify that.


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## Stouter (19/4/17)

The 72C rest Pratty, how long?


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## Mat B (19/4/17)

Pratty1 said:


> 1st - make sure you always rinse the glassware before filling with beer, too often they have been in the dishwasher and that leaves a residue which kills head. Pretty sure that's not the issue buy worth a mention.


Definitely not the issue. I'm well into my beer drinking career to know that a clean glass is non-negotiable. Solid advice though.


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## Jack of all biers (19/4/17)

Stouter said:


> The 72C rest Pratty, how long?


10 mins.

Also look at your alcohol content. Higher ABV is also a foam reducer. There isn't much you will do about it if you want an Extra Stout or RIS, but using other techniques and ingredients to compensate (as already mentioned) will help.


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## good4whatAlesU (19/4/17)

Oats aren't necessarily a must, you can achieve pretty good round flavour through cold steeping I reckon.


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## Lionman (24/4/17)

If you want a truly creamy head you need to use N2 rather than Co2. Nitrogen forms smaller bubbles in the head which gives it a creamier feel. A 75/25 mix of N2 and CO2 is commonly available.

I think it works a bit differently than straight CO2 though and you might need to run higher pressures with longer beer lines.


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## mozzle78 (16/6/19)

I know it's an old thread but I wanted to add. I have made numerous Oatmeal stouts. Various recipes and never more than 7% oats. I always use the cheap, quick oats. While there is a creamy mouth feel, the oats kill the head every time.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/6/19)

mozzle78 said:


> I know it's an old thread but I wanted to add. I have made numerous Oatmeal stouts. Various recipes and never more than 7% oats. I always use the cheap, quick oats. While there is a creamy mouth feel, the oats kill the head every time.


I use 11% flaked oats, the only additive in the commercial super market variety is the salt content which is OK in a stout recipe, I not a fan of too much carbonation so maybe somewhere you are slipping up.
What is your recipe and method?


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## mozzle78 (17/6/19)

This is the recipe for one I am drinking now. One of many using various recipes. It was bottled on 24/02/19. 

Oatmeal Stout 18L batch. Based on Greg Hughes, "Home Brew Beer", recipe

80% JW Ale Malt
6% Flaked Quick Oats
4% CaraAroma (Crystal 130L)
4% Raw Sugar
3% Chocolate Malt Dark TF UK
2% Roast Barley Bairds UK

17gm Magnum @60
16gm EKG @5

39IBUs 46EBC 

OG-1042 FG-1008 ABV-4.83%

BIAB no sparge. No Chill.
Strike temp 70C, 
Mash 1hr, 67.4C-66.3C. 
1hr boil.

Fermented on rinsed US05. Bottled into 375ml bottles with 0.5 teaspoon of Caster sugar per bottle.


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