# Crushing Grains Without A Mill



## sponge (16/4/08)

Ok, so I have some uncracked grains (carapils and medium crystal) in my fridge which i was wanting to use on my next brew. Just one problem, i dont have a grain mill. I have been told you can stick them in a plastic bag and give them a seeing to with a rolling pin or hammer, but have been warned it takes a fairly long time. 

What other methods are there which are easier? can you use a food prcess and just pulse them so you dont practically turn then into powder? orr..... anything else...?


Cheers, Sponge


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## AndrewQLD (16/4/08)

Find a mate who owns a mill and ask a favour.

Surely there is someone in the Gong who could ease Sponge's pain?

Cheers
Andrew


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## oldbugman (16/4/08)

Surely someone wouldnt mind cracking for you. 

I once tried to use a rolling pin on 500grams of grain.. never again.
You could use my mill if you dont mind a small drive.


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## sponge (16/4/08)

Hmmmm... looks like ill be doing more drives to the HBS then haha.

It's all good. I was mainly just wondering if theres an easy home solution for it but it doesn't look too good. I dont mind a drive to the HBS anyways, always means i get to spend more money which i shouldnt be spending  


Sponge


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## Cortez The Killer (16/4/08)

Hey Sponge

If you are keen to drive to Balgownie I'll crack it with my mill

PM me

Cheers


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## brettprevans (16/4/08)

nothing wrong with the home job cracker, before I got my mill I used the ali baseballbat. did a great job.


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## Hutch (16/4/08)

Last week I painfully grushed 1kg mixed grains using a mortar & pestle. Took longer than I care to repeat, and resulted in a lot of powder.
Thankfully no problem with stuck sparge, as this was mixed into a few kg base grain.

The food processor is quicker, though it pulverises the grain to a fine powder.


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## SJW (16/4/08)

U need a mill. If tour up near Newcastle drop in and I will crack it for u and send u away with a few samplers.

Steve


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/4/08)

Grafton up here on the Far Nth Coast is nice and warm at the moment...and I have a Mill... B) 

More than happy top crack it for you....


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## Tony (16/4/08)

Stu's Mill is a piece of Shite....... dont know where he got it from but it couldnt crack a sweat in a sauna.....

Oh wait  forgot all those hours at 2AM on a laythe in a cold workshop :lol: 

I tried a rolling pin and a brick the first time i used grain. After that awfull, pointless excercise i ordered my grain cracked till i built a mill.

If your going to get into buying uncracked malts...... get a mill. a couple of batched pays for it!

Nothing else will do the job properly, not food processors, not baseball bats, not rolling pins, not bricks, not midgets with club hammers, not depleted uranium anti tank shells..................... get a mill!

cheers


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## microbe (16/4/08)

Tony said:


> not depleted uranium anti tank shells...................


... and after I'd stocked up too...  

Cheers,

microbe


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## razz (16/4/08)

microbe said:


> ... and after I'd stocked up too...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> microbe


I hope you ordered the worthog tankbuster to fire em !


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## dr K (16/4/08)

errr..
why are you storing grains in your fridge?
stupid question maybe...or is it???
I would imagine that sort of enviroment would be deliterious to your grain but even if it were not you chilling product for no good reason (unless you can supply one), which means higher energy usage, more GH gases etc is a bit reckless


K (ermit)


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## Tony (16/4/08)

A Mk 2 tiger tank wouldnt do it as good as a proper mill.


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## sponge (16/4/08)

dr K said:


> errr..
> why are you storing grains in your fridge?
> stupid question maybe...or is it???
> I would imagine that sort of enviroment would be deliterious to your grain but even if it were not you chilling product for no good reason (unless you can supply one), which means higher energy usage, more GH gases etc is a bit reckless
> ...



I always thought that grains were kept in the fridge and hops were kept in the freezer. Maybe ive picked up something wrong here. 

and the grains i have, theres only 500g of them, so they cant be using up that much energy to keep them cold... but either way, ill take them out and leave them with my other brewing stuff.


Sponge


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## dr K (16/4/08)

not a lot of energy but a good move!
its all those little bits of not a lot add up up up ....
(and thanks)

K


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## sponge (16/4/08)

Thats all good mate. :icon_cheers: Just wondering, hops are best kept in the freezer though arent they? (Neglecting the energy factor, for now)


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## Tony (16/4/08)

Grain needs to be kept away from air and heat. It will last for ages in a cool airtight spot.

Hops are fine in the fridge if they ar airtight........ i have found air kills hops.... not temps. its not good for them but if they are sealed they will be better off.

cheers


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## Tim F (17/4/08)

I've had good success using a coffee bean grinder - the ones with the clear plastic domed top and little blade that spins round. It takes maybe less than 100g at a time but doesn't take too long for smaller quantities. I cracked 750g of Rye in about 10 minutes. It does crush quite fine depending on how long you spin it for so you wouldn't want to do a massive proportion of the grist this way.

The food processor was absolutely useless btw, don't bother. Unless my processor is just crap


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## Sprungmonkey (17/4/08)

Had a bit of a thought after reading this topic. Has anyone ever tried using a pasta maker to crush grains? Just an idea. Could be a very cheap alternative if it works?


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## Cortez The Killer (17/4/08)

There isn't any knurling on the pasta maker to pull the grain through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knurling

Cheers


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## brettprevans (17/4/08)

marga mill is a pasta grain mill and is around $99 from craftbrewer. cheap alternative to bigger mills. I have a marga and its fine.


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## Cortez The Killer (17/4/08)

Monster mills are also pretty good value ATM at about AUD$150 landed

Cheers


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## brettprevans (17/4/08)

yeah they are. im actually considering getting one, but the missus would kill me. a march pump and a new mill, and bits and peices for AG setup. i'd be dead.


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## matti (17/4/08)

monkey,
I recall reading not too long ago that it doesn't work with pasta maker.

The grain needs to be crushed with majority of husks intact for best result.
I have corn mill. I have to crush them at slow speed to try to keep the husk intact.


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## brettprevans (17/4/08)

I thikning that a monstermill 3 might be overkill. surely a MM2 would suffice. thats about $150 landed (as already pointed out).


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## Fents (17/4/08)

put grains in bag --> put bag under rear wheel of car --> roll back and forth in car few times --> crushed :lol:

i should be a scientist.


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## warrenlw63 (17/4/08)

Not as silly as it sounds Mr Fents... You could maybe stick them in a grain sack. Put a bit of chipboard or similar over the top and just drive over a couple of times. Would work OK for crystal and spec malts. 

Warren -


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## Darren (17/4/08)

Fents said:


> put grains in bag --> put bag under rear wheel of car --> roll back and forth in car few times --> crushed :lol:
> 
> i should be a scientist.




Fents,

That is actually a good idea when combined with Warrens chipboard or similar. You could run over a few times, get out shake/redistribute the malt then do again.

Dont buy a Marga Mill as it is a waste of money. When you decide you need a dedicated mill buy a mill designed to crush malt.

cheers

Darren


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## rich_lamb (17/4/08)

I used one of those little coffee grinders to do about 4kg of sorghum & amaranth (as HBS wouldn't touch the gluten-free stuff) and apart from being a royal pain to do that much grain is was a VERY fine grind.

Naturally it ended up being porridge and needed about the same weight of rice hulls to sparge at all (let alone fast or clear).

Would work OK for a small amount of grain in a partial, but otherwise forget it. From what it would do to the husks you could call it an "astringency mill". Use the rolling pin or car for your small bag, and always remember to order crushed from now on.


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## Sprungmonkey (18/4/08)

What about the manual old school coffee grinders 

here

Donno how fine/course they grind. Anyone tried them?


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## I like beer (18/4/08)

I've yoused one of them they work ok just take a bit to set up right


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## Fatgodzilla (18/4/08)

Darren said:


> Dont buy a Marga Mill as it is a waste of money. When you decide you need a dedicated mill buy a mill designed to crush malt. cheers Darren



Not a waste of money, just a cheap introduction to grain crushing. As the threads are currently running, you can certainly buy much better units, but if you are short of funds and at the beginning of your AG (or even a serious mini masher) then the small marga mills are an excellent entry vehicle. When you get the unit, you can start using it immediately. I wouldn't recommend it if you are planning on crushing huge amounts (but I crushed 5kg in less than an hour last Friday using the manual crank handle). But if your budget is tight or you are not planning on crushing huge amounts of grain regularly, then the marga mill will crush your malt well. Its horses for courses.


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## brettprevans (18/4/08)

bulkbuy thread on millmaster grain crushers. link just in case your interested.


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## barry2 (18/4/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Not a waste of money, just a cheap introduction to grain crushing. As the threads are currently running, you can certainly buy much better units, but if you are short of funds and at the beginning of your AG (or even a serious mini masher) then the small marga mills are an excellent entry vehicle. When you get the unit, you can start using it immediately. I wouldn't recommend it if you are planning on crushing huge amounts (but I crushed 5kg in less than an hour last Friday using the manual crank handle). But if your budget is tight or you are not planning on crushing huge amounts of grain regularly, then the marga mill will crush your malt well. Its horses for courses.



Hello Fatgodzilla

I also use a Marga to crack a kilo of grain for my extract or kit brews.However I lack your speed as it takes me about 30 minutes to crack the kilo with the rollers set about 1mm apart and the Marga clamped to the table.The problem seems to be that the grain doesn't have enough weight on it to maintain a steady flow on to the rollers.So I have to assist it with my thumb.Have you altered the Marga hopper in any way to increase the flow?
Although spending 30 minutes cracking a kilo is hardly a problem any comments to improve my speed would be appreciated.


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## Cortez The Killer (18/4/08)

I'm not sure what the issue is with energy consumption

A full fridge is more economical to run than an empty one

Opening and closing the fridge door unnecessarily will have more of an impact than putting grain in there

I don't store my grain in a fridge though - grain is better kept away from moisture 

Cheers


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## brettprevans (18/4/08)

barry3 said:


> Hello Fatgodzilla
> 
> I also use a Marga to crack a kilo of grain for my extract or kit brews.However I lack your speed as it takes me about 30 minutes to crack the kilo with the rollers set about 1mm apart and the Marga clamped to the table.The problem seems to be that the grain doesn't have enough weight on it to maintain a steady flow on to the rollers.So I have to assist it with my thumb.Have you altered the Marga hopper in any way to increase the flow?
> Although spending 30 minutes cracking a kilo is hardly a problem any comments to improve my speed would be appreciated.



yup. I did it last weekend to mine. I got a knive and just hacked away at the bottom to make the opening larger. once done I used some sandpaper to get rid of the plastic burs and hey presto it has a good flow rate now.


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## albrews (18/4/08)

Sprungmonkey said:


> Had a bit of a thought after reading this topic. Has anyone ever tried using a pasta maker to crush grains? Just an idea. Could be a very cheap alternative if it works?



hi, pasta maker has smooth rollers. grain mills have knurling on the roller to grip the grain and pull it through the mill. any ideas on roughing up the surface of a pasta roller?

cheers alan


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## Fatgodzilla (18/4/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> yup. I did it last weekend to mine. I got a knive and just hacked away at the bottom to make the opening larger. once done I used some sandpaper to get rid of the plastic burs and hey presto it has a good flow rate now.





> The problem seems to be that the grain doesn't have enough weight on it to maintain a steady flow on to the rollers.So I have to assist it with my thumb.Have you altered the Marga hopper in any way to increase the flow?



I'm glad someone else has the same problem as me - sticking the old thumb down occasionally to make sure the rollers aren't spinning empty. Also read that CM2 's approach is the way to go but haven't got around to opening the hopper outlet yet and haven't thought of using a drill until I fix the problem. 1kg in half an hour - either you're cranking too slow or something's wrong ? Rollers 1mm apart sounds too close - you want to crack the husks, not turn them into flour. I don't use any of the settings but have the roller gap pretty much at maximum and it works fine. Ross at Craftbrewer has a pdf file on drilling an extra hole to hold that setting but I really haven't bothered and since I'm fairly useless on these sort of things anyway, I'm waiting until I find a handy man before I make adjustments.



> hi, pasta maker has smooth rollers. grain mills have knurling on the roller to grip the grain and pull it through the mill. any ideas on roughing up the surface of a pasta roller?



Marga Mill has knurling on the rollers. Your pasta maker is different.


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## devo (18/4/08)

yes thought of it but realised that with the lack of knurling on the rollers it's gonna be like trying to eating a rump steak with a tea spoon.

I ended up biting the bullet and purchase a grain mill.


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## albrews (18/4/08)

devo said:


> yes thought of it but realised that with the lack of knurling on the rollers it's gonna be like trying to eating a rump steak with a tea spoon.
> 
> I ended up biting the bullet and purchase a grain mill.



hi, on roughinig up the smooth rollers of a pasta mill, maybe glueing some emery cloth or sand paper to the rollers. or searching the hardware stores for 
something. even scoring the roller surface with a bastard file. 

any other ideas ?

cheers, alan


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## Fatgodzilla (18/4/08)

albrews said:


> hi, on roughinig up the smooth rollers of a pasta mill, maybe glueing some emery cloth or sand paper to the rollers. or searching the hardware stores for
> something. even scoring the roller surface with a bastard file.
> 
> any other ideas ?
> ...



The knurling on a marga mill is relatively fine. I'm guessing that you could not replicate that well trying to use emery / sand paper (it would probably clog up to fast anyway). As far as adding a rough surface on your rollers, it will mean you will probably not able to make pasta again, possibly without being capable of adding enough knurling to pull the grain through. If you don't need a pasta mill, flog it and put the proceeds towards a better grain mill.


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## brettprevans (18/4/08)

Alan 

If you dont want to buy a big mill, I'll be getting rid of my marga if you want to buy it cheap (im going AG so I want a bigger mill). its less than 6 months old and only 5 brews worth of specialty grain gone through it. PM if your interested


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## warrenlw63 (18/4/08)

devo said:


> it's gonna be like trying to eating a rump steak with a tea spoon.



:lol: That I'd like to see.

Warren -


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## barry2 (18/4/08)

Thanks Fatgodzilla and citymorgue2 for the comments.
I have a kilo to crack tomorrow so hope to improve my speed.


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## drsmurto (18/4/08)

Dunno what you boys are doing - i get 5kg thru my marga in about 20 mins. Hand cranking. B)


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## the_fuzz (18/4/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Dunno what you boys are doing - i get 5kg thru my marga in about 20 mins. Hand cranking. B)




Yeah, but your right hand always get a work out...... B)


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## afromaiko (18/4/08)

albrews said:


> hi, on roughinig up the smooth rollers of a pasta mill, maybe glueing some emery cloth or sand paper to the rollers. or searching the hardware stores for
> something. even scoring the roller surface with a bastard file.
> 
> any other ideas ?
> ...



I have two lovely looking knurled rollers sitting next to me each about 30cm long. Unfortunately they are an essential part of a sign writing vinyl sticker cutter but I do keep eyeing them off and wonder how difficult it would be to "borrow" them for the weekend. 

The previous dead sticker cutter got thrown in the dumpster recently, that one used what's called "grit" rollers which effectively have sand stuck all over them. We never had a problem with it gripping the sticker material, but I don't know how much the actual knurling pattern itself contributes to the grain crushing.

The other thing I've been considering doing is rigging up something from a couple of old knurled dumbbells that are kicking around the garage.


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## Darren (18/4/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> I'm glad someone else has the same problem as me - sticking the old thumb down occasionally to make sure the rollers aren't spinning empty.




Never, I repeat never, stick you fingers into empty spinning rollers. Unfortunately in a former life I saw someone place a finger in between some empty crushing/spinning rollers. Took him to the shoulder before it could be stopped.

Did i mention that the Marga Mill is useless? 20 minutes for 5 kilo of malt is crazy. Buy a mill designed to crush malt, not a modified pasta mill.


cheers

Darren


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## milpod (18/4/08)

Darren said:


> Never, I repeat never, stick you fingers into empty spinning rollers. Unfortunately in a former life I saw someone place a finger in between some empty crushing/spinning rollers. Took him to the shoulder before it could be stopped.
> 
> Did i mention that the Marga Mill is useless? 20 minutes for 5 kilo of malt is crazy. Buy a mill designed to crush malt, not a modified pasta mill.
> 
> ...




Still using my "pasta mill",doing a fine job.I dont care that it takes 20 minutes to crush 10kgs.I've automated mine.

Just changed malt brands,efficiency up around 88%.

I love making pasta


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## staggalee (18/4/08)

Fents said:


> put grains in bag --> put bag under rear wheel of car --> roll back and forth in car few times --> crushed :lol:
> 
> i should be a scientist.


Atrip down memory lane.....

That idea was actually put forth on Grumpy`s about 3 years ago, by GT from memory.
Was he serious? I don`t know, but can`t see why it wouldn`t work.
The G`s model included a couple of pieces of thin ply top and bottom.

stagga.


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## Darren (18/4/08)

staggalee said:


> Atrip down memory lane.....
> 
> That idea was actually put forth on Grumpy`s about 3 years ago, by GT from memory.
> Was he serious? I don`t know, but can`t see why it wouldn`t work.
> ...




Hey Stagga,

Grumpy Thomas is a great brewer and knows his shit. All this rubbish about husk integrity etc is rubbish. I used a food processor (tipped on its side to allow the grain equal access to the blades) for about 30 of my first all-grain brews. To my surprise I won numerous medals.

When starting out, simple is probably best. A Herms/Rims rig with three stage sensor and extractors will not help the novice brewer.

What does help the newbie is an understanding that good clean yeast make good beer. Bacteria, whether they be pathogenic  or spoilage make bad beer.

cheers

Darren


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## sponge (18/4/08)

so is that a thumbs up to the food processor?

since id only be bit over half a kilo of spec grains in a grain bag, does it matter if theyre a little finer then using a mill because theyre all contained in the bag anyways?


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## Darren (18/4/08)

Hey Sponge,

Food processor away, specialty malts are a piece of piss in a processor as they are as soft as sugar. Beware if you try to "crush" base malt in HER plastic processor some scratching may occur. If you have the go ahead for crushing base malt in a processor, turn it on its side and shake it whilst it is running. I found it helped to get an even crush. BTW, dont listen to the fools on this site that recite the old pundit that a good crush is essential. It is the biggest falacy of home brewing. Crush is about ease only.

cheers

darren


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## sponge (18/4/08)

well then, im not so worried about getting spec grains cracked anymore. 


now im excited!


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## brettprevans (18/4/08)

the grind of grain matters. dont pretend it doesnt. or is plamer, jamil etc full of shit? grind needs some flour, finer and medium husk and some in tact. no one is saying it has to be scientific but come on, be serious.

EDIT: specialty grains wont matter so much cause your not gettiong all your fermentables from it. so dont get too worried about using major mills for specilaty, but if you wer doing AG then you would worry about crush.


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## Fatgodzilla (19/4/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Dunno what you boys are doing - i get 5kg thru my marga in about 20 mins. Hand cranking. B)




Well I stop for beer breaks ! :chug: 

And I don't believe you :beer:


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## staggalee (19/4/08)

Darren said:


> Hey Stagga,
> 
> Grumpy Thomas is a great brewer and knows his shit. All this rubbish about husk integrity etc is rubbish. I used a food processor (tipped on its side to allow the grain equal access to the blades) for about 30 of my first all-grain brews. To my surprise I won numerous medals.
> 
> ...



Yeah I know he`s a great brewer, who said he wasn`t?
Are you looking for an argument or just making a statement there?

stagga.


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## Darren (19/4/08)

Just a statement Stagga..

CM, As I wrote before, when someone is starting out, crush is one of the least important processes.

cheers

Darren


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## Thirsty Boy (21/4/08)

Good Lord... I agree with Darren.

Husk integrity is about ease of lautering and nothing else. Crush that stuff to the bejeezus, toss in a few hand-fulls of rice hulls if you are worried about a stuck mash and get to it.

If you crush it all really fine every time - that is consistent - and for a newer brewer, consistent, easy and accessible is heaps more important than whatever esoteric advantage that you think you might gain from a traditional "perfect" crush

And don't start about tannins - if your Ph is ok and you don't heat the shit out of your mash, they wont be a problem.

I have a Marga, it works fine, but IS a PITA. At anything like a decent speed.. it tears the shit out of the husks, but I don't care. Rice Hulls.

Thirsty


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