# Larger starters for lager



## rockeye84 (22/8/16)

I revived some bohemian lager yeast I've had in the fridge since January, made a small 1.5L starter from some frozen wort I had. Took 36h to get going but fermented ferociously, looks, tastes & smells really heathy.

I've only got a 5L flask & I'm planning a 60L lager to be fermented @ 10c. 

I'm thinking 5L + stir plate starter might be on the under-pitch side. 

Toying with the idea of a 15L extract/dextrose brew, then pitch the cake from that. Thinking slightly over pitching would be better than under pitching in lager territory.

Good idea? Your thoughts??


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## WarmerBeer (22/8/16)

Having a play in the Brewers Friend calculator (http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/) it would appear to think that a vial from Jan this year would have 0% viability. This probably isn't totally correct, and the fact your starter kicked off within 36 hours would seem to prove it. 

It is, however, probably old enough that petite mutants have changed the yeasts character in some way. Ask yourself, is it worth risking a full day's effort, and probably close to $100 in materials (grain, hops, electricity, gas, etc) to risk building up from an 8 month old pack. Personally, I'd spend $9 on a new pack.

Now, back to your original question. I think you'd want at least a 7 lt starter to get the required cell count. I'd step it up from the pitch pack to a 1.5 lt starter for 48 hours, then step that up to the full 7 lt. If you don't have a big enough Ernlemeyer flask (and who does?), try doing 2 x smaller 3.5 lt starters, and combining them at the end.

Given all that stuffing around, you might be better doing the 15lt malt extract brew. Or a quick Coopers kit from the local Woolies...


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## TheWiggman (22/8/16)

Wise words from Warm[er]Beer. I personally wouldn't use an 8 month old pack on a lager, it's absolutely viable but the actual viability can't really be determined without a microscope. Healthy yeast and big pitch will contribute more to a good lager than probably anything else in your process, so if you don't get it right and stress the yeast early then the results will suffer. Once stressed they won't come back.
I go a 2.5l starter on the stir plate minimum for a 19l batch, and that's with O2 and nutrient. Your step-up process sounds ok though and by extension, going from 2l > 10l (or similar) then fermenting on the cake is a good decision. A bit costly yes, but that's the price to pay for a good home brew lager. And I've had/made bad home brew lagers, I'd much rather spend the time and dosh on a good one.


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## dannymars (22/8/16)

Gotta agree with the above. My best lager was 2 packets, into 2 litres, then into 5 litres.... for a 40L batch. Might've been slight overkill, but it worked.


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## droid (22/8/16)

I would start fresh and even then make up a 20ltr batch from a 5ltr starter then use that washed slurry to go to 40 or whatever you can get out of it.


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## rockeye84 (22/8/16)

Cheers for the info lads, I have blind faith in the 1.5L starter I have, as it smells & tastes fine, I'll step it up to a 15L kit brew, then run with that.


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## manticle (22/8/16)

Have a look at drauflaussen technique.


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## TheWiggman (22/8/16)

Gold post by Thirsty Boy: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/52586-stepped-yeast-starter-calculator/?p=744469
A class stuff by Wolfy in that thread also. Very good reading.


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## Bribie G (24/8/16)

I've had a trawl through various threads and still can't find a definite answer:

I'm looking to improve my lagers with a suitable yeast pitch and feel I haven't been breeding up enough healthy yeast. So I'll be investing in a stir plate with a 5l flask and can step up further using my cute little 15L mini fermenting drum.
Question is, when using a stir plate for stepping up say a Wyeast pack of Czech Lager, what temperature should I do this?

If I do it at "garage" temperature, is there a danger that the yeast will somehow get accustomed to operating at higher temperatures than the typical lager fermentation, or is this a myth that yeast "gets accustomed" as if it has an opinion about things?

I'd guess that the best temperature to breed up yeast would be at fermenting temperature, say 9 degrees. If so how do guys get the stir plate mechanism into, say, a temperature controlled kegmate?


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## sp0rk (24/8/16)

I just put the power cord for my stir plate in the corner of the door seal of my fermenting freezer
That's where the join is, and it's a little softer, so it bend around the cord


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## Kingy (24/8/16)

I've been using 1 pack into 1litre then combine that with another 2 litres the following night into a total of 3litres flask. Wait a few days and chill and decant off liquid then mix into a 5litre starter after that's done, chill and decant except for a small amount to mix the yeast up when pitching. That's for a 46litre batch.
My starters are at ambient at the moment 15°here today.
In summer tho they fit in a fermenting fridge under the fermenter.


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## Bribie G (24/8/16)

Do you use a stir plate or just swish whenever you happen to be passing?


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## Black n Tan (24/8/16)

Bribie G said:


> Question is, when using a stir plate for stepping up say a Wyeast pack of Czech Lager, what temperature should I do this?
> 
> If I do it at "garage" temperature, is there a danger that the yeast will somehow get accustomed to operating at higher temperatures than the typical lager fermentation, or is this a myth that yeast "gets accustomed" as if it has an opinion about things?
> 
> I'd guess that the best temperature to breed up yeast would be at fermenting temperature, say 9 degrees. If so how do guys get the stir plate mechanism into, say, a temperature controlled kegmate?


I have always grown my starter at ambient temperatures and brew lagers all year round. I haven't noticed a difference between those brewed in summer and winter, so I don't think it is important. As I only pitch the yeast I don't feel a need to keep the starter at cool temps.


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## Kingy (24/8/16)

Bribie G said:


> Do you use a stir plate or just swish whenever you happen to be passing?


Stir plate


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## droid (24/8/16)

three ways to do it that I have done from first attempts to current;

1) flask in a saucepan of water, heater belt wrapped around saucepan and plugged into temp controller with probe in water @ 24 degrees, shake it when ever looking at it
2) flask in fridge that is temperature controlled @ 24 degrees, shake it whenever looking at it
3) flask on heated digital stir-plate @ 24 degrees, go to sleep, go away for a while, doesn't matter

the prime wort gravity is between 1036-1040 and the prime temp seems to be above 21 and up to 25 - this is just for a starter, not sure if it changes when you get to 5ltrs

could be wrong but that's what I do


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## WarmerBeer (24/8/16)

Bribie G said:


> I've had a trawl through various threads and still can't find a definite answer:
> 
> I'm looking to improve my lagers with a suitable yeast pitch and feel I haven't been breeding up enough healthy yeast. So I'll be investing in a stir plate with a 5l flask and can step up further using my cute little 15L mini fermenting drum.
> Question is, when using a stir plate for stepping up say a Wyeast pack of Czech Lager, what temperature should I do this?
> ...


My distilled reading (we are allowed to talk about that sort of distilling, aren't we?) has lead me to growing up starters on a stir plate at 24°C. This is apparently an ideal point for cell growth, without risking too much mutation.

Ideally, you only do this is you are planning on decanting the starter, and pitching just the yeast (you'll need to keep enough liquid to allow it to all swish up into suspension in order to get it out of the flask).

I let it go for 48 hours, then chill overnight to drop all the yeast out, making it easy to decant, or if I'm doing a 2-step starter, pitch the whole lot into the second batch of wort. Then repeat with another 48 hours.

If planning on pitching the complete starter, best to grow it up, probably over a longer period of time, at fermentation temp. This is to avoid adding unwanted by-products from the high temps into your complete wort.

I gotta say, though, I feel like a 2nd year undergrad lecturing Stephen Hawkings, teaching you how to suck eggs, Bribie...


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## droid (25/8/16)

here is a direct link to wyeast's how to make a starter
pitch calculator
they state 70F (21C) and 1040


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## TheWiggman (25/8/16)

On Bribie's queries, the best I can make out of it all is that temp (within reason) doesn't affect the 'conditioning' of the yeast, only the health of it. Higher temps = faster fermentation + more yeast per given volume, but the offshoot is fusel alcohols, esters and other faults _in the beer_. When decanting - assuming you do it well - all these rubbish flavours are tipped leaving the fresh yeast behind. That's my interpretation and experience anyway.
I personally have not witness ill-effects of fermenting the lager starters warm (20-35°C), but have witness ill-effects from pitching quantities and stepping methods. The other improvement was O2 and yeast nutrient in the starter. Likewise for big beers, I'll go a 2-3l pitch depending and give it an oxygen and an 02 hit. For standard ales though I find a 1l starter with fresh yeast suits. And of course a stir plate.
I've also noticed that rubbing the flask 3 times anti-clockwise on a new moon and parking your wagons in a circle has a positive effect on the yeast chi. Well it has in my case, 100% strike rate on all the brews I've done with this technique (total 1).


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## Midnight Brew (25/8/16)

manticle said:


> Have a look at drauflaussen technique.


Great technique that I've utilised before. Really easy to do with those 12/14L cubes that are going around.


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## dannymars (25/8/16)

I'd say the temp would depend on the strain of yeast. I don't know this for sure, but I've had differing results with say WLP800 compared to Wyeast 2206.

WLP800 seems to go crazy at any temp (even sub 4C!), Where as the 2206 tends to need a higher temp to really take off. dunno, just speculating as to that is makes a difference to cell counts.


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## EalingDrop (13/10/17)

rockeye84 said:


> Cheers for the info lads, I have blind faith in the 1.5L starter I have, as it smells & tastes fine, I'll step it up to a 15L kit brew, then run with that.



How did it turn out? I've got the White labs German Lager yeast (WLP830) stored for 8 months old. Made the starter last night and I have 36 hours before brew day.
Can viability be judged by sight/taste/smell?


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