# Mash In With Cold Water



## Joel (19/7/12)

Hi all,

I've recently finished and popped my HERMS's cherry. Good times. I've used a modified George Fix style step mash regime (mash in cold-40-60-70-mash out) for my first two brews on it. I figured I couldn't be bothered preheating the strike water separately and just let the PID program do the work for me. My first two seem to have turned out well which is a good sign. Much higher efficiency and good attenuation. I get close to 1.5 degrees temp rise per minute. 

I've been doing a little bit of reading regarding step mashes in general, but I can't find any references to mashing in with cold water and what effects it may have on the mash or finished beer. I would like some kind of science or educated opinions regarding mashing in cold. I reckon I'll be changing to a 55-60-70 regime after recent reading and give that a go, but I wonder if I should keep the cold mash in.


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## Wolfy (19/7/12)

Pilsner Urquell mash in with cold water, according to this article: http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/libr....3/urquell.html

There is also some useful step-mash information on Braukaiser:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...ence_of_Mashing
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...eory_of_Mashing
(not sure if it covers mashing-in cold though)


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## adryargument (19/7/12)

I tried it for my last 4 batches the other week once my herms was complete.
Pretty much back to back brews and all turned out great.

25->53->69->75 = Robust Porter
25->53->61->75 = Summer Ale
25->53->63->75 = IPA
25->53->63->75 = IPA

One thing i did note was the Porter had quite a bit less body then my normal 1 hour 69 -> 75 mashout.


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## Florian (19/7/12)

Wolfy said:


> Pilsner Urquell mash in with cold water



Not only Pilsner Urquell, but me as well  

Have done so for the last 20 month at least without any ill effects. I think traditionally the Germans mash in at 38 and rest there for a good while to get the grain hydrated before ramping up. 

I do the 38 thing from time to time, but more often just at whatever temp the water comes out of the filter.


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## bradsbrew (19/7/12)

Florian said:


> Not only Pilsner Urquell, but me as well
> 
> Have done so for the last 20 month at least without any ill effects. I think traditionally the Germans mash in at 38 and rest there for a good while to get the grain hydrated before ramping up.
> 
> I do the 38 thing from time to time, but more often just at whatever temp the water comes out of the filter.



Florian do you just add the grain to cold water and ramp up to mash temp? If so how long does it take to go from cold to protein?

Cheers


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## MaestroMatt (19/7/12)

When we are saying cold water, I take it there is some limit how cold?

Tap water temps obviously will vary dramatically by state - surely my tap water @ 10-12 on a good winters day is too cold?


Would love to see some research if anyone knows where to find some.


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## Florian (19/7/12)

My water comes out of the filter at around 17 in winter. Can't really see any harm even if it was colder way colder than that. Do you have anything particular in mind why it could be too cold?

Brad, in theory it heats a degree per minute, in practice i think it's a bit slower, at least it feels like it. I have never really bothered to measure since I usually mash in, start the mash cycle and come back a couple of hours later when I hear the beap. That's also the main reason why I do it, convenience, no need to wait until strike temp is reached.


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## A3k (19/7/12)

Good timing,
I've been thinking about doing this for a while. I've just got my Herms setup, but need to get my Arduino setup next. may give it a shot with a Temp Mate type on/off controller to start with. did a trial with water and it did pretty well.

I'm planning on doing a few whilst home, and if i have no issues, i might start them to turn on at a certain time so when i get home from work or wake up it's ready to go.

I don't think there'll be any problem with the mash being around 20deg for 4-6 hours. Anyone want to counter this?

Thanks,
Al


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## jonw (19/7/12)

I've been thinking about going with an automated (arduino) herms and doughing in the night before at mains temp. I'm keen to here others' experience doing this.


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## dmac80 (19/7/12)

I remember reading about this a while ago.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...water&st=20

Second page, kirem used to mash in the previous night and have all mashing completed by the time he woke up.

I'm yet to try it myself, may have to alter by arduino code to achieve the desired result (remove pause for adding malt), but like the prospect of brewday shortening.

Cheers


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## Florian (19/7/12)

There you go

(thought I'd add the link, dmac, your second page is my first page, depends on your settings)


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## Screwtop (20/7/12)

Have a look here:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=16221&view=findpost&p=220972

Screwy


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## Joel (20/7/12)

Thanks very much for the replies and links. Thanks especially to Wolfy for the Braukaiser links. How could I have missed that website for so long???

I am relieved that it doesn't seem to be a bad thing to do. I'm also a bit let down that I haven't discovered a new brewing technique! There's nothing new under the sun I guess, but I did feel a bit like a pioneer for a while. 

I really like kirems idea of doughing in the night before and having the mash ready early the next morning, might have to give it a go.

Cheers guys. Happy brewing!


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## Nibbo (8/5/13)

Been trying to find out some info on cold mashing. 

I'm looking at getting the grains milled and into the mash tun Thursday night and adding the water straight from my tanks. Come back Friday arvo and kick start the HERM's to bring it up to it's first step and proceed from there.

Other option would be instead of adding cold tank water, I'd heat up some water to 50 degree's maybe and then add to the mash. The temp holds fairly well for 24hrs in winter so the mash would still be round 35 - 40 degrees on the Friday arvo.
Then as above get the HERM's going as usual.

Is there an issue having grains spend over 24hrs in cold water before taking them up to temp?


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## manticle (8/5/13)

You might encourage some lactobacillus growth - essentially a long acid rest or sour mash.


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## Nibbo (8/5/13)

Fair enough. I might try it out when I've got enough stocks to afford to lose a batch. It's getting fairly dry at home.


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## iralosavic (8/5/13)

There is a significant difference between mashing in cold the night before and mashing in cold and immediately setting the HERMS to the first step. The night before mash will, as Manticle states, encourage acidity, however, I seriously doubt there would be any meaningful amount of acid generated in the actual scenario at hand. As for possible benefits of mashing in cold, I'm personally not sure. I'd be cautious with extended periods of cold mashing (as your beer may become excessively sour/tart for style), but I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned about starting mash-in cold for the hour it takes to get to the first step. The protein break-down activity is not likely to offer a significant change in the end product now that the grains we use are so well modified.


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## Florian (8/5/13)

Apart from starting my mash with a cold cycle of 4 hours I have also often mashed in at night and started to ramp the next morning.

Basically mash into cold (15-25) water around 10pm, then started a normal RIMS mash schedule at around 8 the next morning. I have done this with different styles, one of them a Pilsner that got a 1st place at the BABBs annuals judged by experienced judges which haven't picked up any faults that could relate to the extended cold mash in.

As a general rule of caution though I would say the colder the liquor the safer. Around 40 degrees is perfect breeding ground for lactobacillus which are wildly present on the grain's husks, hence why you throw a handful of freshly cracked grain into a sour mash after saccharification rest.


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## iralosavic (8/5/13)

If you really wanted (and had the setup) you could mash-in cold the night before, plug your RIMS/HERMS computer into a power timer and set it so that the full mash cycle is started so that it has enough to to finish by the time you're ready to take over to sparge/boil. Hmmm


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## Florian (8/5/13)

If you click the link in the above post you'll see that that's almost exactly what i'm doing now.


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## Nibbo (8/5/13)

Florian said:


> Apart from starting my mash with a cold cycle of 4 hours I have also often mashed in at night and started to ramp the next morning.
> 
> Basically mash into cold (15-25) water around 10pm, then started a normal RIMS mash schedule at around 8 the next morning.


Do you believe it helps cold mashing overnight or do you believe it makes no difference?


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## Yob (16/10/15)

Works for me too.. Mashed in cold last night, timers set to kick on at 4am.. Went out at 7:45 and ramped to knockout.. By the time I'm finished with kids breakfast I should be right to sparge. 

It's a great option for the time challenged. My last few brews have been done like this. Love it.


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## antiphile (16/10/15)

Yob said:


> It's a great option for the time challenged. My last few brews have been done like this. Love it.


Not so great for the technically and intellectually challenged.


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## woodfired (16/10/15)

Hi guys,

I started my all grain brewing with a HERMS simply because it looked like a really cool way to do it. I built a lot of my gear. It was great.

The only concern I would have with doughing in cold, is that you run the risk of not getting the expected unfermentables from a high mash temp. With modern malt having such good diastatic power as you ramp through 60 and up to 69 your starch is busily converting to sugar. They will be so well hydrated by then that you may have fully converted before you even get to the 69 degrees that you would aim for if you wanted more body and sweetness. Indeed one of the earlier posts stated that the porter mashed at 69 was a bit thin.

I reckon the best bet would be to run a cold mash for a porter at 69. Then run another batch where you dough in at 69 and compare the results. Who ever said 69 wasn't sweet?


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## MartinOC (16/10/15)

Agreed, woodfired.

I asked Yob this question earlier today (ie. whether he's noticed any difference in the beers between a cold-start & a specified-temp. mash-in). He reckons it works for him & the beers he's making (& his current domestic situation).

I really like the time-saving aspect to the technique, but I wouldn't use it for everything. If I wanted a very attenuative wort (ie. Saison or a simple, dry summer-quaffer), then I'd definitely be using this technique. 'Wouldn't do it for something like a Mild or a Scotch Ale where you want some residual dextrinous body.

Horses for courses....


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## technobabble66 (16/10/15)

You also might need to just adjust your steps' temp slightly, to balance the time spent ramping thru the lower 60's. 
Eg: for the main sacch step you might up it a degree or 2 (again, as Martin says, depending on what you're after).
Also, many of us already do several mash steps. So especially if you do a 52-55 protein rest, you're used to ramping up to the appropriate sacch rests and already account for ramping time thru the lower 60's range. To go from 60 to 65 normally doesn't take a huge amount of time, so it shouldn't impact too much.


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## Yob (16/10/15)

With the right PID there is no reason why you couldn't target anything you wanted, you just need a ramp / soak PID 

Qldkev has the links on those, about $70 from memory and ultimately that's where I'll be heading. 

One thing to remember to do cold though is to settle the grain bed. You don't want the pump firing up at full speed and sticking the mash while you're asleep.. I give mine about 3 starts just to check before leaving it to its own devices... 

Cheaper off peak electricity use too.


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## MartinOC (16/10/15)

Yob said:


> With the right PID there is no reason why you couldn't target anything you wanted, you just need a ramp / soak PID
> 
> Qldkev has the links on those, about $70 from memory and ultimately that's where I'll be heading.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY where I've been thinking recently.

I can feel a mega-batch of saison coming-on.....


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## woodfired (19/10/15)

I got my PIDs for $16 and the thermocouples for $17 from china. Details below. They were so cheap I bought a second one just to monitor the wort temp as it comes out of the mash tun. this way I can monitor the lag in the HERMS. Thermocouple came with a 1/2 inch thread. I used this with a stainless tee and 1/2 inch barbs to hook up to silicone hoses. I have a picture of it all set up, but I can't work out how to attach a pic! 

The PID controller switches an SSR relay that switches my electric kettle on and off. I get a lot of disbelief for using my $7.50 BigW kettle for a HERMS but if the coil in the kettle is sized appropriately it works perfectly.

*PID* PID REX-C100 Temperature Controll
er +max.40A SSR +K Thermocouple
Probe 0-400
*thermo* RTD Pt100 ohm Probe Sensor L 50m
m PT 1/2'' Thread with3 Lead Wire 6.
56ft


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## woodfired (19/10/15)




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## SBOB (19/10/15)

slightly too many exposed cables there, unless you like living on the edge


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## MHB (19/10/15)

You would do well to turn that pump through 90o (perhaps in two directions - outlet at the top) you are just asking for cavitation with it oriented that way.
Mark


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## glenwal (19/10/15)

woodfired said:


> 05082014392.jpg


Holy crap, you really need to put all that wiring in a box, your just asking to be killed with it like that.


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## woodfired (20/10/15)

Don't stress peeps. I'm a sparky and that photo was taken during testing trials with water. Its all been made safe since.

The thermocouple wires are extra low voltage have very strong insulation and thus safe.

Thanks for the tip on the pump MHB. I worked it out not long after this photo was taken. I saw your old beer machine at Newy exotic beer dinner a while back. Is there any chance HUB can borrow it for Bitter and Twisted this year? I'll send you a message with my contact details.


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## nala (20/10/15)

woodfired said:


> I got my PIDs for $16 and the thermocouples for $17 from china. Details below. They were so cheap I bought a second one just to monitor the wort temp as it comes out of the mash tun. this way I can monitor the lag in the HERMS. Thermocouple came with a 1/2 inch thread. I used this with a stainless tee and 1/2 inch barbs to hook up to silicone hoses. I have a picture of it all set up, but I can't work out how to attach a pic!
> 
> The PID controller switches an SSR relay that switches my electric kettle on and off. I get a lot of disbelief for using my $7.50 BigW kettle for a HERMS but if the coil in the kettle is sized appropriately it works perfectly.
> *PID* PID REX-C100 Temperature Controll
> ...


Nothing wrong with a kettle as a HEX...


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