# Brew in a Basket - 82L pot with 56L malt pipe



## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

Greetings AHBers,

After about 40 AG brews (mostly 3V double batches) the guy I usually brew with is moving interstate and taking most of the vessels and gear. I have a keggle, 3-ring burner, brewing bench on wheels and a couple of little brown pumps with a bunch of 1/2" stainless plumbing fittings.

I want to continue brewing 30-50L batches, and incrementally improve the setup to increase automation and control over time.

Drawing inspiration from the build details posted by enoch, takai and others I'm looking at a brew in a basket setup with an initial startup cost of under $300.

The plan for now

Aquire some cheap ebay 82L + 56L pots (~$140 posted), and use the 56L pot as a malt pipe by cutting slits in the base of the pot and sitting it a couple of inches off the base of the larger pot with stainless bolts (to keep space from the gas-fired base, and leave space for a future element).

Buy a pair of 30cm hop bazookas (~$30 posted) using a stainless tee and elbows to run in parallel for the kettle.

Re-use my keggle as a HLT with a new keg king element (~$40) controlled by a spare STC-1000, with a view to making a HERMS in future.

Buy some stainless ball valves, tees, barbs and fittings (~$70) to mount one LBP under the 82L pot bottom drain to allow mash recirculation - also to allow easy expansion to the future HERMS.

Use a block and tackle to lift the malt pipe as I brew under the house and have plenty of strong beams to attach to.

Future expansion

HERMS/HLT in a single vessel (most likely with 3-5m of copper pipe in an old 9L aluminium pot) - small volume HLT should be fine with minimal sparge
Grab a cheap electric winch/hoist from ebay.
Upgrade LBP to a mag-drive pump (if I burn out the LBPs due to sediment etc)
Electronic monitoring (and eventually control) of temperature 
Replace/augment gas burner with ULWD element
Automation of ball valves (unlikely based on current costs)

I've got plenty of cubes to ferment out at present so this build will probably take a couple of months including shipping time of the fittings from china, but if any of you have thoughts or suggestions based on your past experience it would be most welcome!


Cheers :chug:


----------



## Meddo (4/1/17)

Hey fdsaasdf, I've got three of the 38L versions of those pots and using one as a malt pipe and the other two as FVs. They're pretty flimsy, I'm not sure that I'd want to use one as the main vessel at that size although I think a few others on here have - they may be able to give you better feedback. They're certainly affordable though... 

Mine is working well as a malt pipe although you need to leave a fair bit of metal around the legs when you're cutting in the slits - the base flexes pretty easily.

Cheap alternative to the winch - bit of cord and a few snap hooks / eye bolts etc and you're set (see my pic below):
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2PCS-1-1-2-37mm-DOUBLE-Wheel-Pulley-Block-Swivel-Snatch-Rope-Hanging-Wire-HD-/271852841830?hash=item3f4bb12b66&_uhb=1

Good luck with the build!


----------



## Bribie G (4/1/17)

What wattage would you be looking at? 2400 is just adequate for a Crown or Birko 40L, you'd need a couple of elements I guess then you'd need to look at whether that would trip your domestic circuit.

Do you have a 15 amp circuit?


----------



## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

Thanks for the advice Meddo. Your rig looks great, I think I'll copy the bracing you've used to lift the malt pipe 

I'll be sure to leave plenty of un-slotted space around the malt pipe legs. I was planning to leave a cross-shaped area of the base untouched too to keep enough integrity in the base.


----------



## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

Bribie G said:


> What wattage would you be looking at? 2400 is just adequate for a Crown or Birko 40L, you'd need a couple of elements I guess then you'd need to look at whether that would trip your domestic circuit.
> 
> Do you have a 15 amp circuit?


Thanks Bribie G, I will be starting with a 3-ring burner underneath the pot and 2400W element in the HLT.

Down the track I would like to get at least one of the 4500W / 5500W Camco elements. No 15A points available however with an extension lead I can run my brewhouse off 2x10A circuits if needed.


----------



## Bribie G (4/1/17)

2 circuits works well, I occasionally run my urn with an additional over the side 2200 W immersion heater on an extension lead.


----------



## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

Yeah, it's been pretty handy so far. We often have another mate around doing BIAB with a Crown urn, so I run an extension lead for him to brew alongside the big 3V rig.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/1/17)

Here's a possible alternative to slotting the base:





[/url]
Lauter_4_ proto

After a few false starts* I think I have finally worked out a cheap, easy way to make a proper slotted bottom. I put a prototype together a couple of days ago, the first practical run is tomorrow (I hope).


* Including making one from carbon fibre which looked as though it would work but didn't.


----------



## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> May I suggest an alternative to slotting the base?


Absolutely! I want one already  Are the slats aluminium or stainless? Do you have a build thread somewhere?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/1/17)

The prototype is aluminium: I got tired of throwing away expensive mangled stainless from the previous trials. It's basically $25 worth of aluminium flat bar and some food grade silicone.

If this one works I'll think about making the next one stainless but I'm also considering going up in size so it will need to be 375mm (this one is 315).

If it works I'll post a build thread. If it doesn't, I'll tell you it didn't.


----------



## JDW81 (4/1/17)

I'm looking at doing something similar.

I'm moving house soon, and the place I'm going to is a fair bit smaller, and although I love my 3v RIMs system, I'll struggle for space (the upside is I'm moving to a place that has a massive wood fired pizza oven)

I just need to decide which vessel to keep (115L vs 70L), and work out what size malt pipe to make.

Stand by all, there might be some nice gear coming up for sale soon!!!


----------



## Bribie G (4/1/17)

Better sooner than lauter.


OK couldn't resist that one, mod me .. mod me... :lol:


----------



## fdsaasdf (4/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The prototype is aluminium: I got tired of throwing away expensive mangled stainless from the previous trials. It's basically $25 worth of aluminium flat bar and some food grade silicone.
> 
> If this one works I'll think about making the next one stainless but I'm also considering going up in size so it will need to be 375mm (this one is 315).
> 
> If it works I'll post a build thread. If it doesn't, I'll tell you it didn't.


Thanks, I'll keep an eye out. As keen as I am to get building now I've got at least a month before all the bits arrive and I start drilling.


----------



## fdsaasdf (5/1/17)

I just had an idea that could get my HERMS to be installed shortly after the initial build... In the process of cleaning out my shed today I found an old corny that I've never used - someone sold it to me with a rusty base with a lump of welded slag underneath (I was young, foolish and in a hurry so didn't realise until after the transaction). The lid, dip tube and poppets have since found homes on my other kegs.

By the looks of it a 3/4" diameter hole in the base of the corny would completely eliminate the rusty area, so I could use this hole for a bottom drain or element mount in a combined HERMS/HLT. To go down this path I would just need to purchase an element and copper for a coil.


----------



## buckerooni (5/1/17)

one thing to consider with your pot sizes, if you want to allow room for adding an element look into how much room you actually need so the element has enough room between the base of the outer pot and the base of the grain basket. This depends on how you do your recirc, if you do it through the lid of your pot then this won't be an issue.

As I want to run recirc through the side of my pot, I ran into an issue with a 100L pot (cheeky peak) and the 56L pot/ grain basket (cheap ebay) as my elements needed 90mm. See http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/93631-cutting-the-lip-off-a-54l-pot-to-reduce-height-to-use-as-1v-grain-basket/

This is with the 38L pot in the 100L with 90mm element clearance and enough room for sidewall recirc : 



Part of my issue is running the silver soldered triclover element fittings which take up a bit more room as they need to be soldered on a flat sidewall, above the curve of the base. A bendable romar element would probably require less room.

The quality difference between the cheeky peak and cheapy ebay pots as mentioned is significant, but unsure if there's any real material benefit from the higher quality pot, apart from being, err..higher quality.


----------



## fdsaasdf (5/1/17)

Thanks buckerooni, assuming the eBay seller's dimensions are close to correct I'll have about 80mm difference in height between pots, and I'm budgeting ~60mm to be able to install the bazookas and a future element or two under the malt pipe. I'm only intending to use screw-in fittings.

I'm sure I'll be doing plenty of measuring to get this exactly right when the pots turn up!


----------



## Meddo (5/1/17)

Originally I built my 1V with a KK element but wanted more grunt so replaced it with two Romar 2400W elements (to run off two separate circuits, ~$85 each from memory) bent to spec. They didn't quite offset enough as received but I was able to adjust the bends a bit to sit them where they needed to be. If you end up needing additional clearance a similar bend as these but oriented with a 90 degree rotation would effectively lower the inner height of the elements.


----------



## fdsaasdf (5/1/17)

Meddo said:


> Originally I built my 1V with a KK element but wanted more grunt so replaced it with two Romar 2400W elements (to run off two separate circuits, ~$85 each from memory) bent to spec. They didn't quite offset enough as received but I was able to adjust the bends a bit to sit them where they needed to be. If you end up needing additional clearance a similar bend as these but oriented with a 90 degree rotation would effectively lower the inner height of the elements.


Handy to know, thanks. Are those Romar elements ULWD? I haven't thought about using a KK element for boiling wort as I have read and heard about scorching issues.


----------



## Meddo (5/1/17)

I haven't done the calculations but old mate at Romar said that they are ULWD and appropriate for brewing, and from eyeballing them they've got a lot more surface area than the KK version. I didn't have any scorching problems with the KK, I was just impatient about the time taken to ramp to boil...


----------



## Matplat (5/1/17)

I use one of these:

http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/index.php/store/hot-water/elements/kz24hq00.html

Has performed well enough for single batches, but I wouldn't mind 3600W to ramp quicker etc. The only time I had a problem with it was when the STC-1000 switched on with an empty pot! Since I replaced the element, there have been zero issues.


----------



## buckerooni (5/1/17)

just grinded and drilled some holes in my cheapy ebay pots today, man they are thin! Very easy to rip the SS when drilling, even when very slow w/WD40. I would not want one of these as an outer for a 1V. It's gonna ding up real easy.


----------



## JDW81 (5/1/17)

Is there an ideal ratio between malt pipe size and main vessel?

I'm leaning towards using my 60L Blichmann vessel, and was thinking a 30L malt pipe made from a thin walled SS stockpot would be the go. That should give me enough room to mash up to about 12kg of grain with ample volume to be pretty close to a full volume mash with minimal sparge required, if I aim for my usual 36L batch size (2x small 17L cubes)

Will be using my mongolian burner + RIMs tube for stepping through temps.


----------



## micka80 (5/1/17)

I have the 56l ebay pot as my malt pipe and it is very thin, that's not to say it won't hold together fine. My big pot is from living styles and it is way thicker, wasn't much fun drilling the holes, food for thought if you want something still cheap but not really cheap.


----------



## fdsaasdf (5/1/17)

buckerooni said:


> just grinded and drilled some holes in my cheapy ebay pots today, man they are thin! Very easy to rip the SS when drilling, even when very slow w/WD40. I would not want one of these as an outer for a 1V. It's gonna ding up real easy.


Thanks for the feedback. Interesting, I've drilled some very thin pots before and not torn stainless! I usually use chainsaw oil when drilling. 

I know they're only ~1mm but am not sure how I can really do much damage if it's stationary the whole time it's in use?


----------



## fdsaasdf (5/1/17)

micka80 said:


> I have the 56l ebay pot as my malt pipe and it is very thin, that's not to say it won't hold together fine. My big pot is from living styles and it is way thicker, wasn't much fun drilling the holes, food for thought if you want something still cheap but not really cheap.


Thanks, do you mean http://www.livingstyles.com.au/Stock-Pro-Commercial-Grade-Stainless-Steel-88L-Deep-Stock-Pot/10802/? It's over double the price, but ~$150 posted for a decent 88L pot is pretty good.


----------



## micka80 (5/1/17)

That's the exact one, it was cheaper than the lhbs ones and I could not get the ebay one in that size. You should just get the ebay one, it's that cheap it doesn't matter if it has issues . It ain't going to leak, that's all that matters.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> If this one works I'll think about making the next one stainless but I'm also considering going up in size so it will need to be 375mm (this one is 315).
> 
> If it works I'll post a build thread. If it doesn't, I'll tell you it didn't.


First results are inconclusive:

Wort clarity on the runoff was acceptable but not spectacular.

Brewhouse efficiency (not including trub losses) is slightly better at about 92%.

There were a couple of minor teething issues, I got a small leak due to a bad seal and it looks like I might have had some air trapped under the plate.

The net result is I'd like to give it another couple of trials before I post the build thread, that will be at least a couple of weeks.


----------



## Brownsworthy (6/1/17)

JDW81 said:


> I'm looking at doing something similar.
> 
> I'm moving house soon, and the place I'm going to is a fair bit smaller, and although I love my 3v RIMs system, I'll struggle for space (the upside is I'm moving to a place that has a massive wood fired pizza oven)
> 
> ...


Could you use the 70L pot as a malt pipe within the 115L pot?


----------



## JDW81 (6/1/17)

Brownsworthy said:


> Could you use the 70L pot as a malt pipe within the 115L pot?


The smaller pot is a Blichmann pot, so has lots of bells and whistles on it, which makes it less suitable. It's also pretty heavy gauge SS, which I don't fancy trying to drill/cut etc.

JD


----------



## Brownsworthy (6/1/17)

I guess you'd still get a decent resale value with it being blichmann as well.


----------



## JDW81 (6/1/17)

And I wouldn't feel right ripping into a piece of Blichmann kit with my angle grinder. I suspect if I was caught doing it the homebrew extremists would declare jihad on me (and rightly so).


----------



## fdsaasdf (7/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> First results are inconclusive:
> 
> Wort clarity on the runoff was acceptable but not spectacular.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. My 3V brewhouse efficiency (with trub losses) is usually in the 80s and I'm aiming for similar with this setup. Hope the subsequent trials go well - would greatly appreciate the build thread if you took the time to post it!


----------



## buckerooni (7/1/17)

fdsaasdf said:


> I know they're only ~1mm but am not sure how I can really do much damage if it's stationary the whole time it's in use?


my pot sees a fair bit of movement when cleaning. my thinking was the time investment you put into getting the pot to it's final state is the thing I don't want to do again, so a bit more $ on the pot will mean there's no reason to upgrade. then again, if you fk something up on the pot it's less money lost.


----------



## fdsaasdf (7/1/17)

Righto. I don't think my cleaning regime is particularly violent but I guess I'll find out when they turn up.

Part of the attraction of using the low cost pots is what you've pointed out - this is really going to be a big experiment. If it turns out that I eventually get everything optimised and automated I might earn the right to spend more on something like the 100L CP pot.


----------



## enoch (7/1/17)

fdsaasdf said:


> Righto. I don't think my cleaning regime is particularly violent but I guess I'll find out when they turn up.


I have the 82/56 cheapie set up as a 1v and they work fine. Some photos are in my gallery.
I found you couldn't leave them to soak too long or you get surface rust on the seams. Talking a day or two so not a problem for normal use.


----------



## fdsaasdf (7/1/17)

enoch said:


> I have the 82/56 cheapie set up as a 1v and they work fine. Some photos are in my gallery.
> I found you couldn't leave them to soak too long or you get surface rust on the seams. Talking a day or two so not a problem for normal use.


Your gallery was a catalyst for me going down this path 

Thanks for the heads-up about soak time. What do you clean with? Have you passivated your pots?

I don't leave anything for more than a day, a high-pressure hose and light sponge before and after PBW soak does the job.


----------



## fdsaasdf (15/1/17)

My pots have arrived, they are certainly thin but not flimsy. Also helpfully Bar Keeper's Friend is $6 at coles at the moment so I'll be passivating as soon as I have the time. 

Still a few weeks or so before any fittings turn up from China.


----------



## fdsaasdf (7/2/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> First results are inconclusive:
> 
> Wort clarity on the runoff was acceptable but not spectacular.
> 
> ...


Hey LC, just wondering if you had done any further trials with this setup yet? I'm yet to start slicing up my malt pipe so it's not too late to change my mind if I find a better option 

Fittings have all turned up now, just need to set aside the hours for construction.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (7/2/17)

fdsaasdf said:


> Hey LC, just wondering if you had done any further trials with this setup yet?


Only one, I've been very busy with paying work.

I upped the malt load to 6.5 kg, hoping this would improve clarity by reducing bed permeability. Didn't seem to affect it much but I did get slightly better extraction, 94% without trub losses, 89% after losses according to Brewer's Friend. The figures are not as accurate as usual as my scales decided to give up the ghost so I'm going off wort volume not mass.

I've decided since brewing time is a bit of a premium at the moment that I'm going to rebuild the system and increase the volume, this build will incorporate a larger, stainless version of the lauter plate. It won't happen until after vintage in May but I'll write it up when it does happen.

Also I got the problem with trapped air again so I'm going to try to work out a way of releasing the trapped air (possibly a standpipe attached to the lauter plate)


----------



## Jase (7/2/17)

enoch said:


> I have the 82/56 cheapie set up as a 1v and they work fine. Some photos are in my gallery.
> I found you couldn't leave them to soak too long or you get surface rust on the seams. Talking a day or two so not a problem for normal use.





fdsaasdf said:


> Your gallery was a catalyst for me going down this path
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up about soak time. What do you clean with? Have you passivated your pots?
> 
> I don't leave anything for more than a day, a high-pressure hose and light sponge before and after PBW soak does the job.


I'm thinking of this exact setup, although I saw a two vessel system that looked interesting today. I also have a brand new 40l concealed element urn (that I've had for a while) that I would like to either incorporate or I'd have to sell.

I'll keep a keen eye on this topic.

Cheers,
Jase


----------



## fdsaasdf (7/2/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Only one, I've been very busy with paying work.
> 
> I upped the malt load to 6.5 kg, hoping this would improve clarity by reducing bed permeability. Didn't seem to affect it much but I did get slightly better extraction, 94% without trub losses, 89% after losses according to Brewer's Friend. The figures are not as accurate as usual as my scales decided to give up the ghost so I'm going off wort volume not mass.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I'll be much busier later in the year so am trying to get all equipment work done and sorted so I can get brewing on the occasional weekends that I can fit in a brew day.

I'm very interested to see how your lauter plate goes, best of luck with it and hopefully we'll get to see a write-up when you're done 


A slight change of plans for my build - thanks to the buy and sell forum I've scored a coil and urn that will function as a combined HLT/HERMS, which wasn't going to be included until down the track but the opportunity was too good to miss. Build is tentatively scheduled for the last couple of weekends of this month...


----------



## fdsaasdf (19/2/17)

Build is complete, grinding work was tedious but after assembly and a lot of BKF, TSP and Starsan everything is clean and passivated for the first batch. Didn't get around to etching volume marking just yet.

I also tried out the HLT/HERMS setup in a BIAB brew to keep up supply in the meantime and I was very happy with the result - ramp time for a double batch was around 1 degree every 2 minutes between 67 and 78 which is comparable to my old gas-fired kettle.


----------



## rude (20/2/17)

Throw up a few pics if you don't mind love to see


----------



## fdsaasdf (20/2/17)

Here are a few pics of the build so far. Will try and remember to take some more when I next brew.


----------



## fdsaasdf (2/4/17)

Have just finished my second mash with this unit and am pretty happy so far. First brew had a few hiccups (fittings around the LBP that leaked with wort and not water), but I still hit 80% efficiency and the cleanup was a breeze. Second brew have just hit 74% mash efficiency - which is ok given that it's a very complex grain bill.

Temperature stability with the HEX is great, and ramp times with the 3 ring burner + 2400W element are awesome. With a little more practice I could be knocking out 42L no-chill batches with 60min mash & 60min boil inside 4hrs from strike water / milling.

Just waiting for 1 more stainless threaded pipe and then I will have everything hard-plumbed barring the pump hoses.


----------



## leonjw (2/4/17)

very cool looking build. I like your wort return! What did you use to make the holes in the silicone hose?


----------



## fdsaasdf (2/4/17)

Cheers. I just used a slow drill with 2mm bit, the holes are roughly spaced around 8-10mm apart.


----------



## nosco (2/4/17)

Whats the drainage like with the malt pipe? and how does it go with filtering the wort?

Ive already got my pot to make a malt pipe. I just need the time to make it.


----------



## fdsaasdf (3/4/17)

The malt pipe drainage and filtering seems fine. It could probably do with some fine mesh to make a finer filter to reduce sediment escaping before the grain bed forms but it's not a significant issue as once I recirc and whirlpool through one tap and drain through the other which has a bazooka fitted there doesn't appear to be any noticeable sediment collected in the no-chill cube.

I'm particularly impressed with how effective the LBP is for whirlpooling. I had a nice little trub cone form in the middle of the pot.


----------



## Matplat (3/4/17)

How are you controlling sparging? And what sort of grain:liquor ratio did you have in the mash? 80% is pretty bloody good!


----------



## fdsaasdf (3/4/17)

Matplat said:


> How are you controlling sparging? And what sort of grain:liquor ratio did you have in the mash? 80% is pretty bloody good!


Sparging was controlled by guestimation, I have a ball valve on the urn outlet and it was about 2/3 open.

Ratio was about 3:1 - I don't have the recipe in front of me at present.

I think I may have been lucky with the kettle sour (it was actually 79.7% so not quite over the magic 80). My boil was quite vigorous this time so final volume was closer to 41L, still ~72% brewhouse efficiency which I'm happy with.


----------



## Dazzbrew (21/4/17)

Bribie G said:


> 2 circuits works well, I occasionally run my urn with an additional over the side 2200 W immersion heater on an extension lead.


Hey Bribie G, do you recommend those OTS elements? i have noticed on some of the product discriptions that there is a 100mm min & 300mm max liquid level. i can understand the minimum level but surely the element can be mounted higher for deeper liquids?


----------



## S.E (21/4/17)

Dazzbrew said:


> Hey Bribie G, do you recommend those OTS elements? i have noticed on some of the product discriptions that there is a 100mm min & 300mm max liquid level. i can understand the minimum level but surely the element can be mounted higher for deeper liquids?


The max height is probably recommended as the element wouldn’t work efficiently mounted too high. Heat rises so lower is best, if it was mounted at the top of the pot liquid at the bottom would not heat up.


----------



## Dazzbrew (23/4/17)

if thats the only reason then that's ok for what i will need it for.


----------



## Boxcar (8/6/17)

IMO, for inspiration, ideas and some equipment/parts links, check out the various long DIY threads where people have based their design/work on existing commercial 1V systems like Braumeister (Braumeister NEXTGEN and Braumiser), Brew-Boss and of course Grainfather.


----------

