# Beginners Guide To Cider?



## Chelta (21/11/11)

Hi!
I'm looking to do my first home brew, and since my partner has done an ale I thought I'd like to do a Cider.
I bought from BrewCraft their Irish Cider kit which comprises of:

1x Black Rock Cider Kit
500g Lactose
500g Dextrose
250g maltodextrin
250g malt extract
1x apple schnapps extract

I've read on the forums that Berri apple juice is good to add so bought 5x 2.4L of it.

Also read up about Wyeast 4766 so have that to use instead of the dry kit yeast. I also have 1 tube of Wyeast Beer Nutrient Blend as well at my disposal.

Just wondering if I should make a yeast starter, and if anyone can tell me a good way to do it based on the ingredients I have? Also whether I should use the blackrock kit or just go straight for using only the berri juice? What would you suggest as a 'beginner cider yeast starter' and 'beginner cider recipe'? 

Thanks!


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## hillbillybreweries (21/11/11)

Hi chelta , i have a similar kit in a Fermenter that my wife wanted me to do. Mainly all grain brewed beer before. The people in my brew club that have done kit ciders have had a few comments about them. I notice you are using the apple scnapps extract. One of the problems I have heard is that cider can ferment out too much. Some brewers have told me they stop if where they want by dropping the temperature and stalling the yeast. Then they add apple juice to the keg to sweeting it up to suit their taste. One of the good brewers in our club thinks that a kit cider and cider from fresh apple juice are the same to him. I replaced the kit yeast with a dry wine yeast I brought at Grain and Grape in Melbourne and added yeast nutrient to it. I need to rack mine pretty soon so will be interested to see how much it has come down and how it tastes. Hope some of this is of some help.


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## JDW81 (21/11/11)

hillbillybreweries said:


> Hi chelta , i have a similar kit in a Fermenter that my wife wanted me to do. Mainly all grain brewed beer before. The people in my brew club that have done kit ciders have had a few comments about them. I notice you are using the apple scnapps extract. One of the problems I have heard is that cider can ferment out too much. Some brewers have told me they stop if where they want by dropping the temperature and stalling the yeast. Then they add apple juice to the keg to sweeting it up to suit their taste. One of the good brewers in our club thinks that a kit cider and cider from fresh apple juice are the same to him. I replaced the kit yeast with a dry wine yeast I brought at Grain and Grape in Melbourne and added yeast nutrient to it. I need to rack mine pretty soon so will be interested to see how much it has come down and how it tastes. Hope some of this is of some help.



+1 for replacing the yeast with dry wine yeast. The cider kit will still give you some sweetness through the lactose (an unfermentable) so no need to be concerned about it being too dry. I've used champagne yeast with great success. 

I've got a great cider recipe at home (on the road atm) which I can forward to you if you like. It very simple and uses apples and juice as well as kit ingredients. 

Happy brewing,

JD.


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## vortex (21/11/11)

We have a smack pack of Wyeast 4766 Cider yeast (I'm her partner who made the Ale by the way) and will be using that for the cider; but would the Wine yeast be prefferable? We're planning to also do a starter, but I guess it's not really required for a Cider of this size.


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## JDW81 (21/11/11)

vortex said:


> We have a smack pack of Wyeast 4766 Cider yeast (I'm her partner who made the Ale by the way) and will be using that for the cider; but would the Wine yeast be prefferable? We're planning to also do a starter, but I guess it's not really required for a Cider of this size.



lalvin 1117 champagne yeast is my cider yeast of choice. I've never made a starter for cider before so I can't really suggest to do one or not (I've never had any problems through not making one). 

I haven't used the wyeast cider before, but I'm sure it would make an excellent brew. I like my cider strong and dry, hence the champagne yeast. Try the 4766 and see how it turns out, if you make another batch use a different yeast and compare the results. That is the beauty of home brewing, you can adjust to suit your tastes. 

And as a very wise and experienced brewer once said to me 'the worst thing you are going to do is make beer' (or cider in this case).

JD.


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## [email protected] (21/11/11)

With the lactose , maltodextrin and malt extract even using 4766 it wont be dry. 
I would predict it will finish 1008 to 1012 - always check gravity over 3days to confirm.

Ferment 4766 cool, 16 degrees works, it still produces big fruity flavours.

edit: don't worry about a starter, if your smack pack is reasonably fresh it should be good to go for that kit.


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## hillbillybreweries (21/11/11)

HI Chelta,

As I did not drop the temperature on the primary at all I expected it to have gone to a low FG.

just went a took a gravity reading and mine has dropped to 1002, I will grab some Apple juice and add it to the keg before I rack it.

Cheers.


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## Chelta (21/11/11)

Thanks guys for all your help/input  So are you guys suggesting to try the kit first before doing a full juice only cider? I dont think I will put the schnapps in, but I was thinking of putting in a few litres of juice in replace of the water.

Do any of you know if I should go up to the 23 litres with the kit as it says on the actual can - or go to 21L as it says on the box instructions?

If I dont decide to use the kit and use just 12L of juice, do you still suggest to put in the lactose, dextrose, maltodextrin and malt extract (I guess about half since it would be close to half the batch size of the 21/23L)? I'm assuming the yeast amount would be the same too?

*JDW81:* Please forward me the recipe - I'm after trying one that'd give me a 'good base' to then later on start with doing things like frozen strawberries / vanilla / honey, etc later on to change the flavour slightly.

Once vortex and I have done the batch, I'll post the recipe we used and the FG and OG and such and let you know what it tastes like once its ready!


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## pk.sax (21/11/11)

I've tasted some of the black rock cider kit stuff that a friend made. I'm reasonably sure hat he just used the kit + sugar/dextrose. It was a nice quaffable cider. Nothing too special about it. Add some fruit, strawberries or blueberries spring to mind after somentime if you want to add some taste to it.

Cider made from store bought juice can ferment out really dry with wine yeast. With 4766... Haven't tried yet.
It's never a bad idea to substitute some juice instead of the water the kit asks for, but going by all the fermentables you are already adding to it, the juice will bump the alcohol into another level. You might be looking at a 8-10% ish cider if you do this. Nothing wrong with that 

I steer clear of adding lactose. I'm just too cheap to buy any really. But yeah, he malt etc you have there will work reall well if any of the ciders ive taste so far are to go by.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Rowy (21/11/11)

I've been thinking of doing a cider. I used to go out with a girl that loved an old time brand called Dickens. God that girl loved a Dickens Cider.


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## Chelta (21/11/11)

Rowy said:


> I've been thinking of doing a cider. I used to go out with a girl that loved an old time brand called Dickens. God that girl loved a Dickens Cider.



I'm not even sure this comment even justifies a response - all I can say is 'sad'....


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## felten (21/11/11)




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## pk.sax (21/11/11)

feelthy cider dikin trolls!!


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## JDW81 (21/11/11)

Chelta said:


> *JDW81:* Please forward me the recipe -



Will do, it'll take a couple of days though, not home till thursday. I've set a reminder so I don't forget.

JD.


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## Nicko_Cairns (23/11/11)

Hey JD, I'm very interested in your cider recipe too if you wouldn't mind passing it on?

Thanks mate,

Nicko.


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## Chelta (26/11/11)

Hey All
Thanks JD for your recipe  We decided to go with the kit but just add 2 x 2.4L apple juice to the mix to see how it goes. We made it up to 21L (we only put in 250g of lactose - I can add some at the bottling stage if its too dry then right?), and so far the OG is 1.054

We havent pitched the yeast yet, still waiting for temp to drop to a good level! Hopefully should pitch the Wyeast shortly!


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## Chelta (28/11/11)

Hi All!
Well we did pitch the yeast the same day - it had an OG of 1.054.
Just checked on it (giving it 2 days) and it looks like its down to 1.041. Had a quick taste and it tasted rather good even at this stage!


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## vortex (28/11/11)

Still very cloudy too and plenty of airlock activity, and a long way to go yet but looking promising so far  And the fermentation fridge smells like Apples!


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## Chelta (13/12/11)

Hi All,
Well we got a FG of 1.014 with a few days constant at that - however the cider has ended up super dry ;( Since the kit I bought came with a full 500g bag of lactose and we only used half of it originally, we're gonna add the rest of it and give it a secondary fermentation.

We are also going to harvest off some of the yeast at the same time to prep for the next batch!

Does anyone know if it still doesnt get less dry through this stage, if bottle conditionining using those carbonation drops will help at all? I've heard that time also can make cider less dry ?


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## Chookers (16/12/11)

hi, Ive got 4.5L of Juicy isle earth organic apple juice cloudy and 4L of clear apple juice.

I wanted to make 4L batches of cider in my 5L demis, for side by side comparison.. does anyone out there have a tried and tested recipe, I dont want it to finish too dry.. 

my ingredients consist of:

*apple juices

*yeast nutrients

*several different yeasts including cider yeast, sweet mead, champagne and US-05

*500g Coopers LDME

*Honey and Maple syrup

*Cinnamon quills

*pure Stevia powder


So are these good enough ingredients to make a decent cider??
I'd love to hear your thoughts/recipes


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## Airgead (18/12/11)

Chookers said:


> hi, Ive got 4.5L of Juicy isle earth organic apple juice cloudy and 4L of clear apple juice.
> 
> I wanted to make 4L batches of cider in my 5L demis, for side by side comparison.. does anyone out there have a tried and tested recipe, I dont want it to finish too dry..
> 
> ...



You can make a perfectly good cider just using juice and yeast so I'd say with that ingredient list you are good to go. Go easy on the additional sugar/dme/honey/whatever=. Just plain juice will usually get you 5-6%ABV so adding too much extra will give you rocket fuel not cider. Lactose is that easiest way to ensure it doesn't finish too dry (of course of your cider drinker is lactose intolerant lime mine is then that's not an option and you have to choose one of the trickier options). Cider likes to finish dry. Its hard to get it to do anything else. 

Cheers
Dave


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## boingk (18/12/11)

20L P&N apple juice, 2kg white sugar, 1118 Lavin wine yeast (or comparable champagne yeast) and a few vanilla beans and cinnamon sticks. Ferments out to around 12% and if you carb to champagne levels will make a really awesome holiday season sparkling wine complete with all the appropriate champagne type smells and tastes.

Thats my one and only cider experiment hahaha... was very well received by mates!

Cheers - boingk


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## Chookers (19/12/11)

boingk said:


> 20L P&N apple juice, 2kg white sugar, 1118 Lavin wine yeast (or comparable champagne yeast) and a few vanilla beans and cinnamon sticks. Ferments out to around 12% and if you carb to champagne levels will make a really awesome holiday season sparkling wine complete with all the appropriate champagne type smells and tastes.
> 
> Thats my one and only cider experiment hahaha... was very well received by mates!
> 
> Cheers - boingk




yes, I have been mulling over your recipe for some time now, Im just not sure I want such a high alc %.. but I still went and bought the vanilla beans.. hehehe :lol: 



I got a brewcraft cider yeast and some Safale S-04, US-05 and Safbrew T-58. I also have sweet mead yeast.. and the EC-1118.

I was thinking when I decide on the yeast I'll use to put about 1/8 tsp of Stevia powder, so it fininshes a bit sweeter. (Stevia doesnt ferment...right???) I hope.


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## pk.sax (19/12/11)

Chookers, have you made a cider with nothing added but yeast yet?
Mate, give it a go. Use the champagne/white wine yeast and brew a 2-3 L batch in the juice bottle. Cling wrap & rubber band are your friends, then natural carb in bottle (fridge door). It will give you an appreciation for the level of sweetness you want or don't want in your cider.

Cider is quite tasty on its own.


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## hendog88 (19/12/11)

Chookers said:


> I was thinking when I decide on the yeast I'll use to put about 1/8 tsp of Stevia powder, so it fininshes a bit sweeter. (Stevia doesnt ferment...right???) I hope.



why not use some pear juice? either apple and pear juice or just pear juice out of a can?? the sugar in pear juice isnt fermentable and adds some sweetness and a nice pear flavour.


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## NDH (19/12/11)

How long has pear juice been non fermentable? Do they add sugar to perry? I have a batch on at the moment,

18lt of Berri Apple and Pear Juice
300g lactose
BeerBelly yeast nutrient

US-05 @ 18 degrees.

Has been on for about 10 days and is still at 1030, its still fermenting but this may explain the high SG.


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## hendog88 (19/12/11)

NDH said:


> How long has pear juice been non fermentable?



sorry i meant "some of the sugars".
pear juice will ferment to an extent but im led to believe that some of the sugar is non fermentable. therefore leaving some sweetness.


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## troopa (19/12/11)

Someone will jump in with exact figures soon but pear juice is about 75% fermentable leaving some sweetness naturally


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## Chookers (19/12/11)

practicalfool said:


> Chookers, have you made a cider with nothing added but yeast yet?
> Mate, give it a go. Use the champagne/white wine yeast and brew a 2-3 L batch in the juice bottle. Cling wrap & rubber band are your friends, then natural carb in bottle (fridge door). It will give you an appreciation for the level of sweetness you want or don't want in your cider.
> 
> Cider is quite tasty on its own.




that is a good idea.. I'll try that.

I did a pear juice one about a year ago using Goulburn Valley tinned pear juice, but it ended up being more of a wine.. So I just said its pear wine.. its a little dry but the pear flavour comes through after swallowing. Actually not too bad when its chilled. It took a long time to clear so I bottled it and put it under the house to forget about.


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## NDH (19/12/11)

Will have to remember that, the Missus loves those Rekorderlig ciders that are crazy sweet. Will be a good way to sweeten up a cider without over doing the lactose.


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## pk.sax (19/12/11)

Chookers said:


> that is a good idea.. I'll try that.
> 
> I did a pear juice one about a year ago using Goulburn Valley tinned pear juice, but it ended up being more of a wine.. So I just said its pear wine.. its a little dry but the pear flavour comes through after swallowing. Actually not too bad when its chilled. It took a long time to clear so I bottled it and put it under the house to forget about.



Just to avoid repeating everything on the thread,

pour a glass of juice out, tip in a little yeast (half a teaspoon or something). Put gladwrap on the top and rubber band. I actually put the cap back on - tight (Just juicy bottles with the strong caps). Just let the pressure go every now and then.

3-4 days at ambient/18C it will have fermented through most of it but still be sweet. I let mine ferment outside until the bottle is no longer blowing up hard in half a day with the cap screwed on tight.

Then stick it in the fridge door. Wine yeast is rated all the way down to 10C or something, fridge doors are usually ~4ish C or at least brewing cider kept in door will be close to that, it still ferments enough to carbonate. Drink a glass or two a day, as you drink it down the sugar content is dropping. In my experience, the dryer it got, the better the taste was. But yeah, if I could locate my right sugar level if I liked sweet cider, I'd aim to ferment for a set number of days/to a gravity and then keg it quite cold.

^^ that was meant to be a PM.. but whatever!


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## Chookers (20/12/11)

practicalfool said:


> Just to avoid repeating everything on the thread,
> 
> pour a glass of juice out, tip in a little yeast (half a teaspoon or something). Put gladwrap on the top and rubber band. I actually put the cap back on - tight (Just juicy bottles with the strong caps). Just let the pressure go every now and then.
> 
> ...




heehee.. cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## MartsHomeBrew (28/11/12)

Chookers said:


> heehee.. cheers mate :icon_cheers:



I am thinking to do a cider and there is plenty of useful info on this thread, but am yet to try one and for some reason it seems a little trickier than beer. A few questions for anyone kind enough to answer them..
I notice a number of responses mention adding commercial juices. I have read that these are fine to use ONLY if they are preservative free. Is this correct and if so, why?
Secondly, would using a standard yeast like S-04 produce a vastly different result than specific cider/wine/champagne yeast? Further to this, would using standard bread yeast produce a vastly worse result than brewing yeast? I know someone who has tried this and i queried how it could possibly produce a good result!
I have a peach tree out back which is about to have heaps of ripe peaches on it, but have read peaches tend to lack flavour in brewing. Has anyone tried before? Any help appreciated


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## manticle (28/11/12)

It's actually much easier than beer.

Juice + yeast, ferment, condition, bottle. Nutrient is a good idea too.

Some preservatives can inhibit the action of the yeast.
I've not used S04 in a cider but chances are it will leave more residual sugar and therefore a sweeter cider. Yeast makes a difference to the final outcome, as does the temp at which you use that yeast. Champagne and white wine yeasts make very dry cider (have used both).

Mad fermentationist (google) and Randy Mosher in radical Brewing both talk about peaches. From memory, Randy suggests apricots are more suitable, mad fermentationist reckoned peaches worked OK. Both of those were in relation to beer though.

Take 1 L of preserve juice, tip out a bit and squeeze some peach juice in there. Add your S04, put the lid on semi loose and let it ferment out. Cold condition fo a week or so and you should get an idea as to whether bigger batches will work.

I find ciders are best when fermented at the cool end of whatever your yeast choice prefers.


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## Helles (28/11/12)

Link to my Cidar

Just tasted this for your benefit and mine
Couldn't go wrong with this juice and yeast
And the spices come through but not in your face
Just what i was after


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