# No Chill Cube Not Full



## Nossil (22/7/12)

I've done a quick search on the topic and so far I've gathered that its not ideal to have a no chill cube with a decent amount of headspace due to the oxygen making the wort go bad. But if you use it the next day it should be fine..

Well I'm wondering has anyone had any experience in leaving it for more than just 1 day?
Below picture is a brew I no-chilled last night (my first DSGA), pushed in the sides as much as a could but unfortunately still a lot of headspace. Bunnings only had 15L or 25L cubes.. 15L is to small, but looks like 25L is too big... No happy medium! 

So, if I leave it in the cube for a few more days is it goodbye precious wort?



Also, while I'm at it. What are the negatives of no-chilling in the fermenter? Putting a sanitised shot glass upside down over the gromet so steam can escape. 
Provided the yeast is dumped in the following day, are there any downsides to this?


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## Verbyla (22/7/12)

Not ideal but should be fine. What you want to avoid is aerating the wort when it is stil really hot, so avoid splashing it around in the cube until it cools down. After that you can let it aerate as much as you like. I wouldn't imagine the amount of aeration that would occur would dramatically affect the wort either way. 

If you keg give it a quick spray of CO2 to push out the oxygen 

I prefer to use a no chill cube so that I can just throw it in the spa/bath to cool down if I feel like it. Obviously can't do this with fermenter. Only negative I can think of with no chilling in a fermenter would be that you don't get the chance siphon the wort off the cold break before pitching yeasties.


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## doon (22/7/12)

Rays outdoors have 20l cubes


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## Jay Cee (22/7/12)

How far are you short? If I have ever miscalculated my runoff and am down a litre or so, I'll put the kitchen kettle on and top it up, then invert the cube immediately to mix it in. All said & done, your targets won't be compromised too much (+/- 5%) and if you really were obsessed with the shift in ABV/IBU could always add a little dry extract later, and compensate in your hop schedule.

Edit: Just saw your picture, you appear about five litres down. Definitely modify your recipes in future to include some dry malt and more hops, and top up with boiling water if your kettle isn't big enough to do a full cube


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## Nossil (22/7/12)

Verbyla said:


> I prefer to use a no chill cube so that I can just throw it in the spa/bath to cool down if I feel like it. Obviously can't do this with fermenter. Only negative I can think of with no chilling in a fermenter would be that you don't get the chance siphon the wort off the cold break before pitching yeasties.



Thats what I though, but the cold break would sink to the bottom of the fermenter and sit there during fermentation anyway right?

I edited my first post to show the picture. See, massive shortfall


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## Robbo2234 (22/7/12)

This is a pic of my first no chill





I think i took the squeeze all the air out you can a bit to far!
It was a 25 litre cube next time I will use a 20 litre cube


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## doon (22/7/12)

Remember 15 litres holds 17. Your 25l cube would hold 27. Looks like you are way off. 15l cube would of been fine I reckon


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## keifer33 (22/7/12)

doon said:


> Rays outdoors have 20l cubes



Must say for cost in the west Rays Outdoors are the best value. Dont know how they compare over east.


I regularly do 21-22Lts for a 20Lt cube and 16-17lts for a 15lt cube. Anything in between and I dont really bother. Always handy to have a few different sizes around.


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## Robbo2234 (22/7/12)

know what a 20 litre cube holds?


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## Mike L'Itorus (22/7/12)

Robbo2234 said:


> know what a 20 litre cube holds?



the "20L" ones that look like the one you pictured hold close to 23L when chockas.


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## Jay Cee (22/7/12)

It's stated capacity is to the line.


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## Bats (22/7/12)

+1's for the fact that 15L cubes can hold 17 to 18L and 20L cubes hold 23L.

All you need to know when no chilling in cubes is to try and eliminate the amount of head space as much as possible.

If you miscalculate and put 18L or so of wort in a 25L cube, it just means that you will have to squeeze more air out and distort the crap out of the cube. It might look ugly but is necessary.

I find the best method is to get a towel and use your knee. Fill the cube with your wort, then add the cap but dont tighten it all the way so that air can still be pushed out. Find a step or similar and angle the cube on the step with the cap on the high side. With the towel on your knee (so you don't burn yourself), force your knee into the side of the cube pushing the air out through the cap. When wort gets close to squirting out, tighten the cap firmly.

Put the cube on it's side for 10 mins so the hot wort can sanitise the lid and handle.

You'll have a cube that looks like a melted gumboot but it will have minimal airspace inside.


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## Maheel (22/7/12)

Jay Cee said:


> How far are you short? If I have ever miscalculated my runoff and am down a litre or so, I'll put the kitchen kettle on and top it up, then invert the cube immediately to mix it in.



i have done the same rather water it down with 2L than loose the cube to infection or something 

pour and pitch into it ASAP i reckon


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## Hippy (22/7/12)

If you keg and have flare fittings you can purge the cube headspace with CO2. I've done that once or twice in the same situation and have stored the cube for weeks with no problems.


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## RdeVjun (22/7/12)

I'd note that it is no biggie to leave some air headspace when filling no- chill cubes. In most cases the few litres of air will have SFA negligible impact on the resultant beer. That might obviate the need to contort cubes as we've seen, there is no need to obsessively squeeze every last bit of air out of the cube.
Edit: By all means evacuate some of the headspace to allow for shrinkage, but I wouldn't completely remove every bit of air, all you will achieve is a ruptured cube.


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## Crusty (22/7/12)

RdeVjun said:


> I'd note that it is no biggie to leave some air headspace when filling no- chill cubes. In most cases the few litres of air will have SFA negligible impact on the resultant beer. That might obviate the need to contort cubes as we've seen, there is no need to obsessively squeeze every last bit of air out of the cube.



This has proven itself correct for me. I use 25lt cubes from Bunnings & get 20.5lt into my cube with my 23lt batches (2.5lt trub)
I use the towel & knee trick to get as much air out as possible but I certainly don't go overboard trying to squeeze the guts out of it. When squeezed, I can see my wort level sitting on 22.5lt so I have a bit of head space in the cube.
Has this made any difference to the finished beer quality? Absolutely none. I have fermented a no chill cube the next day & another one a month later for the exact same result.


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## bum (22/7/12)

Verbyla said:


> Only negative I can think of with no chilling in a fermenter would be that you don't get the chance siphon the wort off the cold break before pitching yeasties.


How much do you think people who use plate chillers GAF about this?


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## hsb (22/7/12)

Re no chilling in fermenter - aerating the wort before pitching? If you think it makes a difference of course. I'd find a fermenter too awkward to shake.


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## Verbyla (22/7/12)

bum said:


> How much do you think people who use plate chillers GAF about this?



No idea but it's still a negative of no-chilling in the fermenter however small


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## jakethesnake559 (22/7/12)

quote name='Nossil' date='Jul 22 2012, 03:28 PM' post='937227']
So, if I leave it in the cube for a few more days is it goodbye precious wort?
[/quote]

I managed to cross thread a cube once, so couldn't get a proper seal on it.
Left it for a week with similar headspace to yours before pitching and the beer tasted fine.
No dramas :icon_cheers: .

You could no-chill in your fermenter.
Lots of people pitch straight straight into the cube once it's cooled (essentially the same thing :blink: ).
As someone else mentioned, give it a good shake/stir before pitching.

Cheers,
Jake.


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## bignath (22/7/12)

Verbyla said:


> I prefer to use a no chill cube so that I can just throw it in the spa/bath to cool down if I feel like it.



I wouldnt do that.

This will increase your chances of picking up an infection. Im not saying you will (ive done that before myself with no problems), but it increases risk.

Its the amount of time in a sealed space at post ketle temps that safeguard against bugs. 

Not hot enough in the cube, you may not kill them all.
Not kept hot long enough, you may not kill them all.

Either chill or no chill as designed in my opinion.

EDIT: forgot to answer one of op's questions...

I regularly have gaps of 2,3,4 or so inches of deadspace in my cubes when sealing and squashing out the air.
Also, i often leave them for a week before fermenting.

Zero problems reported.


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## Verbyla (22/7/12)

Big Nath said:


> I wouldnt do that.
> 
> This will increase your chances of picking up an infection. Im not saying you will (ive done that before myself with no problems), but it increases risk.
> 
> ...



That's a really good point that I have neglected to consider. 

Thanks for the advice.


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## mxd (23/7/12)

as your in Melbourne, there's a place in Cheltenham where I buy my 20ltr cubes for $6 (maybe $7).


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## Muscovy_333 (23/7/12)

I no chill most of the time.
As Big Nath mentioned, often sterilisation is a time/temp thing. 
I often roll the cube on its side to make sure the cap is subject to a good dose of heat. (Highest risk area IMHO)

I work on 23 litre batches. I have only overshot once and i just freezed off the excess for a starter. 
If i undershoot i just give the cube a squeeze to remove most of the headspace. 
I generally pitch into the wort within a couple of weeks max.


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## Yob (23/7/12)

Muscovy said:


> I work on 23 litre batches. I have only overshot once and i just freezed off the excess for a starter.



^ Im planning on increasing my volumes by a liter or so, the hope is that I will have a starter jar to go with every cube.

Week of the ferment, pitch some yeast to a starter so that I have a healthy yeast to pitch.


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## Amber Fluid (23/7/12)

I aim for 26L which gives me a cube + 3 big V8 jars full. I like to have a little extra for starters and gives me a few bottles + a keg. I look at it that you are doing the same time and effort for that little extra and it is always nice to grab a beer of something you finished in the keg a month or so ago.


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## Nossil (23/7/12)

Thanks everyone for your advice. So I've gathered: 
Downsize to a 15 Litre cube, which will probably fit 17-18 litres (which is pretty much the max output of my BIAB stovetop setup at the moment anyway). 
OR, track down a 20lt cube and use the towel and knee trick -and a little bit of headspace will be fine up to a month. 


Still curious as to the actual downsides of no-chilling in the fermenter and pitching 1 day later -besides having the cold break in the fermenter (won't it sink to the bottom anyway? Maybe a problem if re-using some of the trub for the next batch?)
No chilling in fermenter sounds like a good idea to reduce the risk of infection from the cube and syphon tube as well -not to mention less cleaning and effort.


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## Mike L'Itorus (23/7/12)

If you no chill in a cube, you will end up pouring the cold break into the fermentor, anyway. As mentioned, if you chill with a plate chiller (or also with a counterfolow chiller), cold break will go through to the cube as well. Big woop, doesn't really matter. It's the hot break you want to keep out. 

As far as chilling in the fermenter; _it's not best practice_. However, if your sanitation is excellent, and if you pitch as soon as possible with the correct rate of healthy and viable yeast (after having aerated the wort), you can usually get away with it. I have, in the past, done so, as have other members. In my case, I always fermented in a fridge, so I would ensure that the inside of the fridge is as clean as possible (and you could even wipe/spray down with sanatiser), and I would then place a sanitised shot glass over the airlock grommet (if you have an airlock, and if your seal is good, then there is a distinct possibility of it sucking the liquid into the fermenter as the wort cools). I rarely had any problems with this method. The downside is that you have a lot of headspace, it is not fully sealed, and you are unable to fully and effectively use the heat of the wort to pasteurise the entire surface area of the fermenter/lid, cos it will leak out if you tip it up on it's side. Hence the increased risk of infection. 

However, as I said, _this is far from best practice_, and ymmv. I no longer do this, as I now have an abundant supply of cubes, that are dedicated purely and solely to no-chilling (ie, nothing ever goes in them other than unfermented wort, or sanatiser), and, even if I plan on pitching as soon as the wort is cooled, I still nochill it in the cube as per the standard method.


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## manticle (23/7/12)

The no chill method is designed to minimise various risks (oxidation, infection etc). The more steps you remove from that method or the more yours differs from the one outlined (eg minimal headspace, sealed container etc), the greater those risks become. That doesn't mean that infection is imminent, just that you have an increased risk.

Some people chill overnight in the kettle (slow chill rather than no chill). Personally I find NC so easy to do as outlined with the whole squeezy, fill to top, sealing thing that I have no need to try and **** with it. If I were to be tempted to slow chill (removing the ability to ferment when ready - just breaks up the brewday into two parts), I'd probably just set up my plate chiller.

However people do it, it works, you just need to be aware of potential issues, as you do with any method.

As suggested, cold break is not a worry.

This is how I make it easier on myself: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showarticle=197


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## Thirsty Boy (23/7/12)

there are several reasons to minimise your headspace in a NC cube

- a very small risk of an airborne bug in the airgap living through the process and infecting your wort
- a very small risk of a bug on the inside of your cube in the "empty bit" living through the process and infecting your wort
- a moderate risk (its happened to me) that when you turn your cube on its side to eliminate the risk immediately above this one, the air in the gap will expand so much it will make enough pressure to pop the lid causing anything up to a catastrophic leak of boiling hot wort.
- an absolute certainty that your wort will be exposed, while hot, to more oxygen than it would if you squeezed out the air. Which will lead to an increase in hot wort oxidation, which will, as all HSA does, cause your beer to age differently (and in all probablity with less grace) than otherwise it would

Now those things might not be to you, terribly important - but what they also are, is absolutley avoidable. You just eliminate the air gap to the best of your ability, which should mean almost completely, and they cease to exist as even _potential_ issues.

No-chilling in the fermenter (or kettle) exposes you to the risk of all but the third issue I described above, plus the added very small risk (due to the vessel not being completely sealed) that as the vessel cools down, the air inside will contract, drawing in air from the outside, which might, if you are really unlucky, contain some dust on which are hitch-hiking spoilage bacteria. If the temp is much below 60 when that happens, maybe the bugs infect your wort.

I know however that people who practise kettle or fermenter no-chilling have come up with strategies to mitigate that risk, so its technique based rather than inevitable.

When people were coming up with the idea for no-chill, there were raised a whole bunch of "it wont work because...." arguments. The sealed cube with the air pushed out of it is the technique that addresses the most of those arguments, not all of them, just more than the other ways - thats why its often put forward as the "standard" technique. Everything else is just a little bit less comprehensive.

Excellence is mostly about doing lots of little things well - squeezing the air out of an NC cube is one of those little things. Nothing terribly important in and of itself, but definitely another box to tick off the list.

TB


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## Thefatdoghead (23/7/12)

I'll use the jerry cans from the chinese shop (bunnings) and usually make 54 litters to fill a 50L keg or 2 x 19l corny's with some left over for a yeast starter. Will the air in your no-chill be ok? who knows. Id'e say yes but why not just make a little more and fill it so you end up with no air? I guess you'll find out if it is ok or not pretty soon. Why not leave it for 5 months and see how it is? then if it's looking good go for 2 years.


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## Nossil (24/7/12)

^ My current setup is limited to an output of 17-18 Litres or so. I wish i could do 50L batches, would save a lot of time. But I don't particulary want to pay hundreds of dollars for a proper AG setup when what I'm doing at the moment with a pot and stovetop does the job fine. 


Thanks Thirsty, that really cleared up the risks. There has been lots of very helpful replies in this thread explaining exactly why it is important to reduce headspace. Bottom line is to get a proper sized cube, perhaps 20L (From Rays) for the size of my brews and squeeze out the air with the 'towel, knee and step' technique so there is next to no headspace.

On the odd occassion where I'm feeling super lazy (after spending 3 hours doing a brew...) i'll dump the hot wort straight into a fermenter and wait for it to cool and pitch... But I think when investing so much time making a brew it would be best to minimise risks at all stages of making the beer, which includes the cool-down stage.


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## doon (24/7/12)

If your limited to 17-18 just get a 15l you won't have to squeeze then. Make it a bit stronger then dilute up to 20l


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## Thirsty Boy (24/7/12)

buy yourself a nice fresh wort kit from one of the good natured site sponsors - ferment yourself a tasty beer from teh contents and then use the cube for your no-chill.

Most of the Hb stores are selling their FWKs in 15L nominal containers, which as people have pointed out, actually hold about 17L when you fill em right up with hot wort.

Then your cube is not only appropriate, its free too.

TB


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