# A Guide To Starting Out In Ag



## Justin

*Advice and Recommendations for those starting out in all grain home brewing*

There are lots of people getting into All grain brewing these days. All too often though I see newcomers leaping into the AG side of brewing before they have really grasped the concepts and knowledge and they make a lot of mistakes and spend a lot of unnecessary money (hey, I've been there! Words of experience). It can be very daunting and no one can be expected to know everything before starting out but with the right advice and a bit of thought and planning you can do it in a more efficient way. I thought I might take the time to write an article for the aspiring all grain brewer that highlights a few of the pitfalls experienced by new comers to all grain home brewing, particularly in regards to getting started with equipment for the brewery. 

Going back less than 10 years there were few home brewers brewing all grain, mostly due to a lack of available knowledge but also due to the lack of access to ingredients, ideas, equipment etc. The internet has certainly driven this boom in the number of AG brewer as it has allowed people to gain access to the information and communicate with others of similar interests where they can share knowledge and experience. However, it has also done a pretty good job of both confusing and misleading those starting out due to a wealth of conflicting and incorrect statements and advice.

This article aims to just offer a few things to think about if you're interested in AG brewing and are looking to dabble or shift to AG and have been pondering building your own system. Brewers wanting to get into AG brewing but looking for a place to start seem to be looking for guidance to starting their home system so I thought I offer a few recommendations and pieces of advice that I have learnt along the way. 

It can be a daunting process getting started because of the myths and misconceptions coupled with the fact there are a broad range of knowledge and experience levels out there participating in forums. We have new brewers coming through looking for hints and advice, experience brewers talking on more technical issues, people offering up advice in an effort to help and then people who dont know much but profess to know all and it can be a pretty confusing place. What I see a lot of though is people coming into building an all grain brewery all guns blazing because they are keen and motivated yet blindly following what others have done. Its great to see that on this forum at least, a lot of people are doing their research, utilizing the information that has been posted previously and then making their own decisions.

However as I alluded to at the start, I see a fair few newcomers coming into the hobby, keen as mustard with their new found hobby and then leaping into building his/her brewery before they have really grasped the concepts and understood how to go about it and wasting a lot of money, time and effort. This is particularly prevalent on many of the other forums (both Australian and US based) so I thought I would write a few comments to help the new brewer, who is keen to build, sift through the maze of info out there and come out with a good functional brewery they have designed and built themselves.

There are a lot of websites based on peoples home breweries, but not all of the info posted on them is necessarily the greatest information, nor is it always correct, efficient or sound. People give all sorts of reasons why they did what they did in an attempt to justify their expenditure. The sooner you realize this the better off your brewery will be and the less money and messing around you are going to experience. You're free to spend what you want on your brewery but Im just hoping that with a bit of thought and planning you can go about it in the most cost effective way.

Now there are good websites out there with good solid information, but what the new comer has to realize is that the trick is to sift over the range of websites and weed out the bad ones and remember the good ones. There are no guidelines or standards to regulate what is posted on the net and unfortunately a lot of these websites are posted by keen, but very inexperienced brewers keen to put back some info that they hope will help others like themselves, as well as justifying to themselves their choices for various things. Its a form of self reassurance. But for those starting out, don't be afraid to back yourself and your ideas if you think you can do it better. Use what others have done, but use your head about it.

However, for the new AG brewer here are some points to remember when you start down the AG brewing road:

1.	*Keep it simple.* All grain brewing can be a very simple process indeed, so dont make it harder on yourself. Anyone can do it and you dont really need to know that much to get started and produce pretty good beer if you already have some sound knowledge of kit based beers and good sanitation/fermentation techniques. Do some reading on the subject and try to get a handle on the basic process, you can refine and expand your knowledge as you get further into it. Have a go, if it doesn't come out great don't be disheartened. Learn from it and try again, you'll get it second go and very likely will brew a good beer first go.

2.	*Dont be drawn into the race for gadgets and to make things look cool.* People are proud of their breweries and rightly so, but at least in the first instance dont let it deter you by thinking that to make good beer you have to spend big dollars and buy all this gear and have all stainless vessels. So many of the home breweries out there are filled to the brim with crazy gadgets, electronics and shiny things. Its a hobby, people get excited, addicted, carried away etc. While that is fine and you are free to add/buy whatever you want, but dont feel intimidated by an apparent need for technical equipment. All you really need is some very basic equipment and some simple techniques all the rest is bling factor.

3.	*Understand what your needs are and what you want to achieve. * Remember that each person has different needs, budget, restrictions, time, interests and skills etc. Therefore, build a brewery to suit yourself. Brewing frames are cool, but you might not have the room for one-but thats ok because you can work around this. If you need to pack up after every brew session design your system to suit. If you can leave it in place then youre a lucky person indeed and have a range of additional options open to you. But if you cant weld or dont have access to a welder your still ok. Use whatever supports you have to make yourself a tier or two and lift if you have to. There are ways and means so find out how you can make your brewery work for you.

4.	*Start out simple and grow from there. * You dont need a big complex rig to make it all work. My best advice is to throw together something cheap and simple that you can get your feet wet on. Experience is the key here. The more hands on brewing experience you can gain before you invest in a major rig the better your system is going to be and the less money and heartache its going to cost you. By actually getting in there and brewing you will find out if AG brewing is actually for you, youll get a feel for the techniques and requirements that make things work, and youll also understand parts of the process you would like to streamline and adapt to your situation.

5.	*Research what others have done but dont blindly copy their system.* Understand whats going in the various stages of brewing, it really is very simple. You should be able to visualize brewing an entire batch of beer on someone elses system just from photos. If you cant work out how to go through the process and how it works then you probably should do a little more reading on the topic until you can understand whats going on and where. Hopefully these people built their system to suit their need, thats what you want to do too. Their needs are not your needs necessarily, so dont just blindly copy their system. If you look close enough and give it enough thought you should be able to pick the mistakes and poorly designed aspects of their brewery. Dont make the same mistakes, learn from their example.

Think about what you want and need, but don't be afraid to adapt or change something so that is suits your purpose better. As I said at the start, AG brewing is essentially a very simple process and only requires very simple equipment. Things such as HERMS and RIMS are in most instances totally unnecessary, so don't think that you're going to have to build a HERMS or RIMS to be able to make good beer. These systems are usually employed because a stainless keg looks cool for a mash tun but sucks from an insulation point of view. If you're looking for a great mash tun and a simple brewery get an esky and be eternally happy with your ability to leave it unattended during the mash. If you want to build a herms or rims system don't build one at the start, add it into you brewery later on once you've got the basics down and know what you are doing and you have decided that you really do need it. I couldn't think of anything worse than trying to learn to AG brew on a HERMS or RIMS system. Remember, keep it simple.


6.	*Plan your system well before you leap in and build.* Visualise what you want to achieve and then draw a plan of how you want to build it and how you want to use it. Then play out a brew day on your diagram, is it going to work, what stuff is unnecessary, what should I change? What problems am I likely to experience? How high is it and can I access the mash tun? How do I empty the mash tun with heavy wet grain and can I drain all the hoses and lines to keep it all clean? If I mount some thermometers here, are they actually going to be covered by the grain or water?

Some extra time spend now in planning will save you time, effort and money down the track and your system will work much better without (or fewer) little niggles or things like "I wish I thought of that".

7.	*A note on temperature control.* When your dealing with 25+ litres of hot water (or hot water plus grain) is doesn't heat very quickly, nor does it cool particularly fast. Thermostats are nice but your not going to keep over shooting your sparge water temps because your vessel heats too quick while you're not looking. It also doesn't cool down that quick either, so don't worry too much about having automatic temp control in your mash or HLT. It doesn't matter if your sparge water is a degree or two cooler than you were hoping for you'll still have a good sparge. It's not that important. Try to have your mash tun correct and insulated and you should make nice consistent beer. Add things like thermostats later on if you decide you need it.

8.	*Some points on height.* If you can, keep your system low. Your mash tun is the most important vessel for access. You need to get to it to measure the temp, add in the grain and stir the mash. If you can avoid it try not to place your mash tun at a height where you need to stand on something (eg. Ladder) to get in there. When you're brewing on your own it can be quite tricky to pour your grain in and stir at the same time, worse if your standing on a ladder. I find it amusing when looking at some of the commercial systems (B3, Sabco) that employ pumps to move liquid yet for your $5000 investment you still have to balance on a ladder to access the most important vessel and mash in. These systems use a pump-so why not actually use it .

9.	*But which valves do I have open?* Wow, look at all those valves, that looks cool. Now which one do I open again? Try to make your plumbing as simple and as idiot proof as you can by minimizing the number of hoses and valves. Not only will it save you money but trust me, the more valves you have on the system the more times you're going to leave the wrong one open-and it will happen. Throw in something like hard copper plumbing and you won't even realize liquid is quietly moving from one vessel to the other under gravity until your HLT is full of wort from the mash tun because you can't see in the lines. Keep it simple again.

10.	*But I need sanitary welds and fittings on all my vessels.* No you don't. Anything that is preboil does not need to be sanitized. As long as you can clean it without too much trouble I wouldn't worry too much about welds or hoses or valves on the preboil side of your brewery. Do worry about what your beer touches and where your beer goes after the boil and after it's chilled. If you have lots of extra plumbing on the output of the kettle it just makes more for you to sanitize and increases the chance of some nasties hiding. If you can run off straight into your fermenter it can't get much better than that.

11.	*Don't get hung up on the minor things.* As I've said before AG brewing is easy so don't get too bogged down on the details. Little things like how you build a rotating sparge arm to sprinkle water onto the grain bed don't make a lot of difference. As long as you can get the sparge water into the mash tun it's going to work, it doesn't have to be carefully sprinkled in a rotating fashion so as not to disturb the grain bed. Experience from actually doing a brew or two beforehand is going to come in handy here and hopefully you will realize that aspects like this are not that important. Get the water into the tun, get the wort out the bottom and then boil it. 

12.	*Don't let a lack of equipment prevent you from having a go.* You don't have to brew 25 or 50L batches. If you have a 20L stock pot you're in a position to give this AG thing a go. With an extra bucket or two you can be brewing all grain. Take for example the All in One brewery thread that is currently underway on this forum. If there is a will there's a way. Although, I probably wouldn't bother trying to make the All in One work for me, I think it would just be easier to use an extra bucket or two that can then pack away inside each other if space is tight, but if it works for you then go for it.


What if I want to add or spend more on my equipment? I'm not saying that you shouldn't spend the money on your brewery or do it on the cheap. It's up to you how you tackle it, but many people are on a budget. I think the first piece of equipment one should buy though if they are prepared to invest in AG brewing is a good size kettle and a burner powerful enough to boil it. This gives you the immediate option to brew full volume boils of extract based beers and then easily move into AG brewing as funds or time allow. I have to whole heartedly back the use of a good sized aluminium or stainless pot in the size range of 50-60L. Trust me that the initial outlay is well worth it and it is an item that you will always have. Please resist the temptation to source a 50L stainless keg from the back of a pub or wherever. The number of kegs being put to use in home breweries in Australia is soon going to be an amount significant enough that it will attract the attention of the rightful owners to the point that it will be worthwhile to legally pursue. It's best to avoid this from the first outset for everyone's sake and never worry again. $100-150 for an aluminium boiler is actually one of the cheaper things you'll end up buying for your home brewery.

From here you can fill in the rest of the items as you see fit and can afford the items. Don't rule out the benefits of scrounging an item but if in the end it comes down to buying it, don't sweat it too much. If you're in this hobby for the long haul then your brew gear will last a very long time indeed and pay for itself before long and if it comes to it, brew gear seems to have excellent resale value.

So hopefully this article will help give you some direction from which to approach a move towards all grain brewing. If you approach it in a logical manner, try to contain your enthusiasm (I know it's hard  ), read plenty of information and try your best to educate yourself before you invest, hopefully you should be able to build an excellent, well functioning brewery first go that will serve you for many years. Then all that is left to do is start working towards brewing the best beers you have tasted. It's a fun hobby and if you're keen enough AG brewing can also be a heap of fun.

Best of luck with your brewing.
Justin


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## PistolPatch

Spot on Justin! It makes a huge difference to new brewers when an experienced brewer takes so much time to write down some common sense. It is certainly hugely appreciated by me.

Could be a bit of, 'A Guide to...' week on AHB. I'm just writing up a guide to brewing AG in a bag (the antithesis of gadgetry.) I hope when I post it, you can check it out to make sure I haven't given any dodgy advice!

Hope those considering AG take the time to really ponder what you've said. Something like this would have certainly saved me a lot of time, trouble and money.

Good on you!
Pat :beerbang:


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## Guest Lurker

Nice work Justin. If this was pinned with Jayses original bible on getting into all grain, which concentrates more on recipes and processes than equipment, between them it would make a great primer.


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## Justin

PistolPatch said:


> Something like this would have certainly saved me a lot of time, trouble and money.



Ha ha, me too mate. Just drawing from personal experience  . Thanks for the comments though.

I'll have a read over Jayse's post as well GL, I hope there isn't too much over lap. It's been a very long time since I read that post (ie. I can't remember when I read it-12 months or more ago??). I'll have a read now.

Thanks guys. Hope it helps a few brewers out there.


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## bugwan

Wow Justin - certainly contender for post of the month...(should we make a calendar?).

Thanks for the info - I have had to rid my brain of old phone numbers, names, capital cities and other trivia to make way for all this brewing info. Keep it coming guys...


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## Adamt

Brilliant! Will be handy for when I dive into the AG club in September. I think we need some glue to stick this one.

Beers and Cheers!

-Adam


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## Fingerlickin_B

Good reading post that one :beer: 

PZ.


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## Doc

Awesome work Justin.
It is now Pinned too.

Doc


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## bindi

Well said Justin  Keep it simlple at first, I started AG with a bucket in bucket, then an esky and pots, now it's big pots and gravity fed and I will keep that way for now as I don't need pumps etc, and who 'coined' that saying ? 'Your not a real brewer blah blah something about a pump and some disease  called RIMS 'rubbish? <_<


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## Bizarre

I started doing partials (and could've done small AG batches too now that I think about it) in a 24l pot with a grain bag made of nylon I sewed up on a sewing machine (and before any one takes the piss - lol - I am NOT an expert with a sewing machine!!  ), on the stove top. The pot wasnt a thin el cheapo one - but it was nowhere near as expensive as a Robinox either - it cost me $55. So cost wise that was about it at the start - and I also got my grains crushed at a LHBS. 

I now have my own mill, esky mashtun, 36 litre robinox s/s pot and an extra 9kg gas cylinder with burner (which was about $39 I think) - but thats cause I wanted to get into brewing ag in a bigger way. 

As Justin and others have said - you can get away with just a grain bag, 20 or so litre pot, a stove top to boil it on and a laundry trough to cool it in. Start small - see what you think - and if you got bitten by the bug like I did, then maybe buy a few more bits of kit.

AG is a lot easier than you think also - I'm up to my 4th and I have to say I've found it all fairly straight forward so far (nerve wracking the first couple of times though cause you're stressing about it all!).

Go on - give it a go!!

Cheers

:chug:


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## Trough Lolly

Well done Justin. A good post and a rare one at that...

...it didn't have the phrase "relax, don't worry...." in it!!  

Cheers,
TL


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## Morrie0069

Absolutely brilliant post Justin. I've got a couple of months off startin in October (fisrst baby is on the way  ), and what with this post and PP's "All in One" post, I think I'll try and get my hands wet on my first AG!  It certainly is easy to look at all the shiny stuff and say " Wouldn't that be nice", but I'm taking your advice and will keep it simple. In time it will naturally evolve into a thing of beauty, but in the start, all I need is something which helps me make better beer. :chug:


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## Steve

Cheers Justin
Will have a read of that tomorrow when Im back at work with lots of time on my hands.! :beer: 
Cheers
Steve


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## Justin

Steve said:


> Cheers Justin
> Will have a read of that tomorrow when Im back at work with lots of time on my hands.! :beer:
> Cheers
> Steve



Ha ha, sorry mate. Did I make it too long for you? 

Thanks for the comments. Seeing as it has been stuck to the top of this section with some sort of sticky wort, if there is anything else that I might have missed out I'm happy to add it in if it might be needed ("relax, have a...."?). I did "try" to keep it simple and on topic with my initial intensions, but it grew a bit longer than I thought it would . When it starts flowing.....

Cheers.
Justin


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## Steve

Justin said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers Justin
> Will have a read of that tomorrow when Im back at work with lots of time on my hands.! :beer:
> Cheers
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha, sorry mate. Did I make it too long for you?
> 
> Thanks for the comments. Seeing as it has been stuck to the top of this section with some sort of sticky wort, if there is anything else that I might have missed out I'm happy to add it in if it might be needed ("relax, have a...."?). I did "try" to keep it simple and on topic with my initial intensions, but it grew a bit longer than I thought it would . When it starts flowing.....
> 
> Cheers.
> Justin
Click to expand...


As one of those that has just moved to all grain with 3 done i'll let you know tomorrow. Good for you for taking the time to type that up.
Cheers
Steve


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## PistolPatch

Justin, a well-written post like yours is NEVER too long for new brewers (lucky buggers) and ALWAYS too long for experienced brewers (poor bugers.) 

Great to see it pinned as a great post that others can easily link to must save a thousand repetitive questions. (Going to put a link to this now in the All In One Brewery Thread).

Not too sure why you're worried about the length. I wrote more words in my census just on the, 'Where does the person usually live?' question.


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## jayse

Nice work Justin. One suggestion in which I had done for my Aussiehomebrewer guide to the galaxy was make it into a PDF file.
One thing you did forget was to mention as the same with while brewing also while building a brewery you should listen to Led Zeppelin for the best results. :super: 



Boozed broozed and broken boned.
Jayse


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## kook

Nice work Justin  This is perfect info for anyone looking to get into AG brewing.

I'm in the planning stages at the moment (as seen in the thread I posted), and I've gone through many drawings of how I want to use the brewery.

I started out with hard plumbing and so many valves, but in the end I think QDs are the perfect way to go. Minimal chance of confusing things and turning the wrong valve.

I'm going to review my stand now too (i'd designed it for using 2x 50L Robinox Pots and a 70L Robinox Pot), as I think the MLT might be a bit too high.


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## Hubby

Nice work Justin! I've taken a similar approach in building my humble outfit ... more a cost driven approach :blink: than following excellent guidance like yours. If I had the cash spare, I would have spent it on bling a long time ago. At least your post puts my mind at ease and confirms some of the things I have been pondering.

One of the things that keeps coming up for me is the "shades of grey". Is this more because brewing science does not provide definitive answers or is it just that we build on what we learn from others (ie there's no right or wrong answers to many brewing questions - just lots of perhapses?????)?

At the end of the day, I just want a brew I'm proud to drink and share with others. Sure, not everyone will like the fruits of my labours ... but there's no bigger critic than me  I must say that this site has answered many questions and raised many more along the way - keep up the great work peoples.


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## Doc

jayse said:


> Nice work Justin. One suggestion in which I had done for my Aussiehomebrewer guide to the galaxy was make it into a PDF file.



Here it is in PDF Format.

Enjoy,
Doc 

View attachment Advice_and_Recommendations_for_those_starting_out_in_all_grain_home_brewing.pdf


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## Screwtop

Admit it, you've been coaching him haven't ya Pat. Never have seen a longer post!

Top work Justin!


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## PistolPatch

Dear Screwtop,

Justin and I have been intimate for some time now and we thought our secret was safe with you. We try and keep our personal and brewing lives separate. Whilst your post was quite revealing, (I thought I only snored in my sleep, not talked,) we would appreciate it if you kept your comments to yourself.

Sincerely yours,
Pistol Patty.

P.S. OMG! I think this is one of those posts that you think is funny when you post it but the next morning you go, "FFS!" LOL.

EDIT: FFS! (Sorry Justin.)


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## Fingerlickin_B

:lol:


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## Bizarre

PistolPatch said:


> Dear Screwtop,
> 
> Justin and I have been intimate for some time now and we thought our secret was safe with you. We try and keep our personal and brewing lives separate. Whilst your post was quite revealing, (I thought I only snored in my sleep, not talked,) we would appreciate it if you kept your comments to yourself.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> Pistol Patty.
> 
> P.S. OMG! I think this is one of those posts that you think is funny when you post it but the next morning you go, "FFS!" LOL.



Or some people reading it might think "Maybe I should avoid meeting Pat when he comes back over to WA"

 

LOL


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## Thommo

PistolPatch said:


> Not too sure why you're worried about the length. I wrote more words in my census just on the, 'Where does the person usually live?' question.



Somehow Pat I wouldn't be surprised if you were still filling out your census form.  

Great read Justin. And very true. I've assembled my rig on the cheap, and even though I still don't have a HLT it still makes pretty good beer.


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## jayse

So how did this thread get turned into talking about this Pat guy who ever the fruit he is? :beerbang: 



Alcohol fueled brewtality
Jayse


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## Justin

LOL! You guys are madder than me! Loose lips, sink ships PP, you've really blown our little secret LOL  My girlfriend is asking question now too, I'm really in the pooper LOL! h34r: 

Thanks for PDFing the file Doc, and thanks again for the comments guys.

Cheers, Justin


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## big d

Great post.Now for my 2cents worth.Due to my location i didnt have the luxury of attending a ag brewday first up which i reckon for the first timer would be worth its weight in hops.
If you can get along to a brewday ask heaps of questions as it will help immensely.

Cheers
Big D


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## benno1973

At the risk of sounding just like everyone else, I have to give two big beery thumbs up to Justin! 

In the past I did some AG brewing with a borrowed rig. Actually I had the rig for around 3 years, and I'm now cursing myself that I didn't use it to its fullest. I've been back on partial mashes and extract brews now for a few years, and in my head I've been designing my own rig, with bells, whistles, pumps and a kitchen sink.

After reading this post, I've decided to scale it down. First things first - get a burner and a good boiling kettle and work from there (I already have the mash tun). Realistically, I don't have the cash to buy the fancy gadgets, and my wife restricts the credit card use on each trip to the homebrew store. So a fancy rig might get built by the time I'm 50, but for the meantime I'm going to start simple, work out what things really annoy me and slowly buy equipment to address these issues.

Thanks again Justin! (you've made my wife very happy - she can now afford that new ivory back scratcher)...


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## Lukes

That's a great post Justin.
My 2 cents.
Mixing, power, water, gas and 2 liters of your last brew can be a deadly cocktail.
Keep it safe as we don't want any members to suddenly stop posting here only to have loved one's post in the back pages of the local news print (births and deaths).
:blink:


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## Justin

Yep, best thing you can do is get that kettle and burner first. I might emphasise that in the post a bit more when I edit it. 

Once you get that kettle there isn't much you can't do and you really can do the rest of it with various bits you have around the house as you can find/afford them (most people have an esky and a big bucket).

Extract brewing using unhopped malt extracts is pretty big in the states, doesn't seem as big here but it's a pretty good way to start building your own beers and learn about designing a recipe or two. All you need is the kettle, burner and maybe a chiller would be handy but people have been using the no chill method too.

Cheers, Justin


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## PistolPatch

Hey Justin! Thanks for your very high tolerance levels and great sense of humour. Much appreciated.

I saw you mentioned that you would be editing your original post (imagine the benefits if everyone did this!) I was just thinking that maybe people could post here any links to other great reads that they found particularly useful when they were at the stage of contemplating AG. Hopefully it wouldn't take too long to add these add these at the end of your Post #1 to make it a, 'One Stop Thread.'

One link I remember finding very informative wasPaul's Brewing Page

Cheers
PP

EDIT: Won't say how long this post was last night.


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## browndog

Pat, you should be out (reconoiterrung) sussing out where all the girls will be when we come down there  

cheers

Browndog


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## PistolPatch

Justin said:


> If there is anything else that I might have missed out I'm happy to add it in...



Was just having a re-read here Justin and thought I'd mention (briefly as always )three things...

1. Use a NASA burner if you have a keg-shaped kettle. A 3 ring burner is fine, maybe even better, for pot-shaped kettles from 40-70 litres in size doing a 23 litre batch. A 4 ring burner is too wide for most kettles.

2. Evaporation rates can be hard to work out at first so err on the low side. It's far easier topping up at the end than extending boil time and trying to get flavour/aroma hop addition timing right.

3. As I've been pretty heavily involved in the new full-volume brewing methods, it's probably a little arrogant of me to bring it up but I can now honestly say that this is the simplest and cheapest way to start doing AG for most people. It's producing very good beer (maybe even as good as traditional methods) and requires a bare minimum of equipment and knowledge. There are currently 2 full-volume methods that work. Both of these do not require any knowledge of sparging or strike temperatures. This makes all-grain very easy. One of these methods also only requires a burner and a kettle. Maybe links to the relevant threads would be a good addition to the guide.

I better go now Justin and find some girls for Browndog :lol: 

Cheers
Pat


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## Adzmax

Awesome thread Justin, glad I had a good read before taking the leap to AG. I'm a self confessed technology junkie so reading your thread has brought me back to earth  Start simple and work my way up! Cheers!


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## Kleiny

great post helped me a lot to get started and reminded me to get back to brewing rather than making my brewery look good


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## Dicko ACT

Great article Justin. Much appreciated.

I'm looking at joining the dark side and becoming an AG brewer.

Unfortunately, I have a tendancy to buy the biggest and best, rather than what I really only need.

I believe your article will greatly assist my transition. Im sure it will also keep the Mister of Finance (Mrs) happy...

Dicko


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## shimple

Howdy...I have been brewing kits for years, and a weeks back decided to try AG brewing. 

I have been researching what is required, and what i have found is that everyone has a different opinion. This is a good thing, as now i can find the right approach for myself and my situation. 

Cheers Justin, for some extra info, that will go along way.

I am so excited.


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## gsharratt

Hi Justin/All,

I've been looking at getting into AG brewing and came across your article(06). Very helpful. I want to set up pretty simple operation at the start but as you point out in the article, there is a lot of conflicting info out there regarding exactly what equipment you need. Can anyone help with a basic list of equipment and where in Sydney I can get it. Daves Homebrew are putting together an AG kit but it sounds a bit $$.

Cheers,

Greg


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## phonos

Many people have recently been starting All Grain brewing using the Brewing in a Bag (BIAB) method. 

[topic="11694"]BIAB[/topic] 

The topic is 50 pages long now, but the first page has the most relevant information.

For this method you only need a pot (www.allquip.com.au) a burner (BBQs Galore) and a bag (Spotlight).


----------



## jyo

Thanks for the info, mate. I've been doing partial mashes for a couple of years, and I am going to go AG very soon. Some valuable info.




Justin said:


> *Advice and Recommendations for those starting out in all grain home brewing*
> 
> There are lots of people getting into All grain brewing these days. All too often though I see newcomers leaping into the AG side of brewing before they have really grasped the concepts and knowledge and they make a lot of mistakes and spend a lot of unnecessary money (hey, I've been there! Words of experience). It can be very daunting and no one can be expected to know everything before starting out but with the right advice and a bit of thought and planning you can do it in a more efficient way. I thought I might take the time to write an article for the aspiring all grain brewer that highlights a few of the pitfalls experienced by new comers to all grain home brewing, particularly in regards to getting started with equipment for the brewery.
> 
> Going back less than 10 years there were few home brewers brewing all grain, mostly due to a lack of available knowledge but also due to the lack of access to ingredients, ideas, equipment etc. The internet has certainly driven this boom in the number of AG brewer as it has allowed people to gain access to the information and communicate with others of similar interests where they can share knowledge and experience. However, it has also done a pretty good job of both confusing and misleading those starting out due to a wealth of conflicting and incorrect statements and advice.
> 
> This article aims to just offer a few things to think about if you're interested in AG brewing and are looking to dabble or shift to AG and have been pondering building your own system. Brewers wanting to get into AG brewing but looking for a place to start seem to be looking for guidance to starting their home system so I thought I offer a few recommendations and pieces of advice that I have learnt along the way.
> 
> It can be a daunting process getting started because of the myths and misconceptions coupled with the fact there are a broad range of knowledge and experience levels out there participating in forums. We have new brewers coming through looking for hints and advice, experience brewers talking on more technical issues, people offering up advice in an effort to help and then people who don't know much but profess to know all and it can be a pretty confusing place. What I see a lot of though is people coming into building an all grain brewery all guns blazing because they are keen and motivated yet blindly following what others have done. It's great to see that on this forum at least, a lot of people are doing their research, utilizing the information that has been posted previously and then making their own decisions.
> 
> However as I alluded to at the start, I see a fair few newcomers coming into the hobby, keen as mustard with their new found hobby and then leaping into building his/her brewery before they have really grasped the concepts and understood how to go about it and wasting a lot of money, time and effort. This is particularly prevalent on many of the other forums (both Australian and US based) so I thought I would write a few comments to help the new brewer, who is keen to build, sift through the maze of info out there and come out with a good functional brewery they have designed and built themselves.
> 
> There are a lot of websites based on people's home breweries, but not all of the info posted on them is necessarily the greatest information, nor is it always correct, efficient or sound. People give all sorts of reasons why they did what they did in an attempt to justify their expenditure. The sooner you realize this the better off your brewery will be and the less money and messing around you are going to experience. You're free to spend what you want on your brewery but I'm just hoping that with a bit of thought and planning you can go about it in the most cost effective way.
> 
> Now there are good websites out there with good solid information, but what the new comer has to realize is that the trick is to sift over the range of websites and weed out the bad ones and remember the good ones. There are no guidelines or standards to regulate what is posted on the net and unfortunately a lot of these websites are posted by keen, but very inexperienced brewers keen to put back some info that they hope will help others like themselves, as well as justifying to themselves their choices for various things. It's a form of self reassurance. But for those starting out, don't be afraid to back yourself and your ideas if you think you can do it better. Use what others have done, but use your head about it.
> 
> However, for the new AG brewer here are some points to remember when you start down the AG brewing road:
> 
> 1.	*Keep it simple.* All grain brewing can be a very simple process indeed, so don't make it harder on yourself. Anyone can do it and you don't really need to know that much to get started and produce pretty good beer if you already have some sound knowledge of kit based beers and good sanitation/fermentation techniques. Do some reading on the subject and try to get a handle on the basic process, you can refine and expand your knowledge as you get further into it. Have a go, if it doesn't come out great don't be disheartened. Learn from it and try again, you'll get it second go and very likely will brew a good beer first go.
> 
> 2.	*Don't be drawn into the race for gadgets and to make things look cool.* People are proud of their breweries and rightly so, but at least in the first instance don't let it deter you by thinking that to make good beer you have to spend big dollars and buy all this gear and have all stainless vessels. So many of the home breweries out there are filled to the brim with crazy gadgets, electronics and shiny things. It's a hobby, people get excited, addicted, carried away etc. While that is fine and you are free to add/buy whatever you want, but don't feel intimidated by an apparent need for technical equipment. All you really need is some very basic equipment and some simple techniques all the rest is bling factor.
> 
> 3.	*Understand what your needs are and what you want to achieve. * Remember that each person has different needs, budget, restrictions, time, interests and skills etc. Therefore, build a brewery to suit yourself. Brewing frames are cool, but you might not have the room for one-but that's ok because you can work around this. If you need to pack up after every brew session design your system to suit. If you can leave it in place then you're a lucky person indeed and have a range of additional options open to you. But if you can't weld or don't have access to a welder your still ok. Use whatever supports you have to make yourself a tier or two and lift if you have to. There are ways and means so find out how you can make your brewery work for you.
> 
> 4.	*Start out simple and grow from there. * You don't need a big complex rig to make it all work. My best advice is to throw together something cheap and simple that you can get your feet wet on. Experience is the key here. The more hands on brewing experience you can gain before you invest in a major rig the better your system is going to be and the less money and heartache it's going to cost you. By actually getting in there and brewing you will find out if AG brewing is actually for you, you'll get a feel for the techniques and requirements that make things work, and you'll also understand parts of the process you would like to streamline and adapt to your situation.
> 
> 5.	*Research what others have done but don't blindly copy their system.* Understand what's going in the various stages of brewing, it really is very simple. You should be able to visualize brewing an entire batch of beer on someone else's system just from photos. If you can't work out how to go through the process and how it works then you probably should do a little more reading on the topic until you can understand what's going on and where. Hopefully these people built their system to suit their need, that's what you want to do too. Their needs are not your needs necessarily, so don't just blindly copy their system. If you look close enough and give it enough thought you should be able to pick the mistakes and poorly designed aspects of their brewery. Don't make the same mistakes, learn from their example.
> 
> Think about what you want and need, but don't be afraid to adapt or change something so that is suits your purpose better. As I said at the start, AG brewing is essentially a very simple process and only requires very simple equipment. Things such as HERMS and RIMS are in most instances totally unnecessary, so don't think that you're going to have to build a HERMS or RIMS to be able to make good beer. These systems are usually employed because a stainless keg looks cool for a mash tun but sucks from an insulation point of view. If you're looking for a great mash tun and a simple brewery get an esky and be eternally happy with your ability to leave it unattended during the mash. If you want to build a herms or rims system don't build one at the start, add it into you brewery later on once you've got the basics down and know what you are doing and you have decided that you really do need it. I couldn't think of anything worse than trying to learn to AG brew on a HERMS or RIMS system. Remember, keep it simple.
> 
> 
> 6.	*Plan your system well before you leap in and build.* Visualise what you want to achieve and then draw a plan of how you want to build it and how you want to use it. Then play out a brew day on your diagram, is it going to work, what stuff is unnecessary, what should I change? What problems am I likely to experience? How high is it and can I access the mash tun? How do I empty the mash tun with heavy wet grain and can I drain all the hoses and lines to keep it all clean? If I mount some thermometers here, are they actually going to be covered by the grain or water?
> 
> Some extra time spend now in planning will save you time, effort and money down the track and your system will work much better without (or fewer) little niggles or things like "I wish I thought of that".
> 
> 7.	*A note on temperature control.* When your dealing with 25+ litres of hot water (or hot water plus grain) is doesn't heat very quickly, nor does it cool particularly fast. Thermostats are nice but your not going to keep over shooting your sparge water temps because your vessel heats too quick while you're not looking. It also doesn't cool down that quick either, so don't worry too much about having automatic temp control in your mash or HLT. It doesn't matter if your sparge water is a degree or two cooler than you were hoping for you'll still have a good sparge. It's not that important. Try to have your mash tun correct and insulated and you should make nice consistent beer. Add things like thermostats later on if you decide you need it.
> 
> 8.	*Some points on height.* If you can, keep your system low. Your mash tun is the most important vessel for access. You need to get to it to measure the temp, add in the grain and stir the mash. If you can avoid it try not to place your mash tun at a height where you need to stand on something (eg. Ladder) to get in there. When you're brewing on your own it can be quite tricky to pour your grain in and stir at the same time, worse if your standing on a ladder. I find it amusing when looking at some of the commercial systems (B3, Sabco) that employ pumps to move liquid yet for your $5000 investment you still have to balance on a ladder to access the most important vessel and mash in. These systems use a pump-so why not actually use it  .
> 
> 9.	*But which valves do I have open?* Wow, look at all those valves, that looks cool. Now which one do I open again? Try to make your plumbing as simple and as idiot proof as you can by minimizing the number of hoses and valves. Not only will it save you money but trust me, the more valves you have on the system the more times you're going to leave the wrong one open-and it will happen. Throw in something like hard copper plumbing and you won't even realize liquid is quietly moving from one vessel to the other under gravity until your HLT is full of wort from the mash tun because you can't see in the lines. Keep it simple again.
> 
> 10.	*But I need sanitary welds and fittings on all my vessels.* No you don't. Anything that is preboil does not need to be sanitized. As long as you can clean it without too much trouble I wouldn't worry too much about welds or hoses or valves on the preboil side of your brewery. Do worry about what your beer touches and where your beer goes after the boil and after it's chilled. If you have lots of extra plumbing on the output of the kettle it just makes more for you to sanitize and increases the chance of some nasties hiding. If you can run off straight into your fermenter it can't get much better than that.
> 
> 11.	*Don't get hung up on the minor things.* As I've said before AG brewing is easy so don't get too bogged down on the details. Little things like how you build a rotating sparge arm to sprinkle water onto the grain bed don't make a lot of difference. As long as you can get the sparge water into the mash tun it's going to work, it doesn't have to be carefully sprinkled in a rotating fashion so as not to disturb the grain bed. Experience from actually doing a brew or two beforehand is going to come in handy here and hopefully you will realize that aspects like this are not that important. Get the water into the tun, get the wort out the bottom and then boil it.
> 
> 12.	*Don't let a lack of equipment prevent you from having a go.* You don't have to brew 25 or 50L batches. If you have a 20L stock pot you're in a position to give this AG thing a go. With an extra bucket or two you can be brewing all grain. Take for example the All in One brewery thread that is currently underway on this forum. If there is a will there's a way. Although, I probably wouldn't bother trying to make the All in One work for me, I think it would just be easier to use an extra bucket or two that can then pack away inside each other if space is tight, but if it works for you then go for it.
> 
> 
> What if I want to add or spend more on my equipment? I'm not saying that you shouldn't spend the money on your brewery or do it on the cheap. It's up to you how you tackle it, but many people are on a budget. I think the first piece of equipment one should buy though if they are prepared to invest in AG brewing is a good size kettle and a burner powerful enough to boil it. This gives you the immediate option to brew full volume boils of extract based beers and then easily move into AG brewing as funds or time allow. I have to whole heartedly back the use of a good sized aluminium or stainless pot in the size range of 50-60L. Trust me that the initial outlay is well worth it and it is an item that you will always have. Please resist the temptation to source a 50L stainless keg from the back of a pub or wherever. The number of kegs being put to use in home breweries in Australia is soon going to be an amount significant enough that it will attract the attention of the rightful owners to the point that it will be worthwhile to legally pursue. It's best to avoid this from the first outset for everyone's sake and never worry again. $100-150 for an aluminium boiler is actually one of the cheaper things you'll end up buying for your home brewery.
> 
> From here you can fill in the rest of the items as you see fit and can afford the items. Don't rule out the benefits of scrounging an item but if in the end it comes down to buying it, don't sweat it too much. If you're in this hobby for the long haul then your brew gear will last a very long time indeed and pay for itself before long and if it comes to it, brew gear seems to have excellent resale value.
> 
> So hopefully this article will help give you some direction from which to approach a move towards all grain brewing. If you approach it in a logical manner, try to contain your enthusiasm (I know it's hard  ), read plenty of information and try your best to educate yourself before you invest, hopefully you should be able to build an excellent, well functioning brewery first go that will serve you for many years. Then all that is left to do is start working towards brewing the best beers you have tasted. It's a fun hobby and if you're keen enough AG brewing can also be a heap of fun.
> 
> Best of luck with your brewing.
> Justin


----------



## Samuel Adams

Great thread Justin, on my way to AG brewing one step at a time.



Guest Lurker said:


> Nice work Justin. If this was pinned with Jayses original bible on getting into all grain, which concentrates more on recipes and processes than equipment, between them it would make a great primer.



I know this thread is over 4 years old but can anyone give me a link to this thread mentioned above ?

Cheers


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## Bribie G

Welcome to the darkside Sam. Justin posts only infrequently these days, last seen about 5 months ago so I hope he's ok. Great guide for sure, since then there have been some developments in getting into AG, and you might want to suss them out as well - examples are getting into AG for $30 and my guide to Brew in a Bag using an Electric Urn, not to mention the initial BIAB thread by Pistol Patch. 

Should give you some ideas to explore. Not sure about the Jayse thread, if he's around he may advise. 

Cheers
BribieG


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## MarkBastard

My guide to starting out in AG (20L batches on dedicated brewing equipment).

Buy a 40L Crown or Birko urn.
Buy 50cm of Silicone Hose for the urn tap from craft brewer.
Buy a 19L Big W Stainless Steel pot
Buy a pre-made BIAB bag from gryphan brewing
Buy a 20L jerry can from super cheap auto or bunnings (clean well a few days before your brew with napisan and thoroughly rinse)

First recipe (buy from craft brewer or closer alternative, get the shop to crack and mix the grain for you)
American Amber Ale
4500gm Barrett Burston Pale Ale
300gm Caramunich II
30gm Chocolate Malt
60gm Willamette hops
1 packet US05 yeast

Attach the silicone hosing to the tap of your urn.

Put 30 litres of water into your urn and bring it up to 70 degrees. Turn your urn off. Put your BIAB bag in the urn. Pour the grain into the urn water and mix it well for about 2 minutes using a coopers plastic spoon or anything else long enough. Put the lid on the urn. Throw a towel over the lid of the urn. Through a blanket over the urn and wrap some wrope around the urn to keep the blanket close to it.

Walk away for 60 minutes.

Come back, take the blanket off, take the towel off, take the lid off the urn. Bunch the edges of the BIAB bag up in your hands and slowly lift it and allow it to drain. Once you have drained it as much as possible lift it up and place it in the 19L Big W pot. Turn the urn back on and put the temperature up to 110 degrees.

Now go back to the bag. Lift it in the pot and drain it as much as possible. If you have someone else there get them to squeeze it (they may prefer to use gloves to do this if it's too hot. Any liquid you squeeze out you should put back into the urn. Once you think you've got all of the liquid out you can put the lid back on the urn to help you get to boiling faster.

Once the boil starts start a 60 minute count down timer so that you know when to add hops.

Add 40 grams of hops when the count down timer gets to 45 minutes.
Add 20 grams of hops when the count down timer gets to 5 minutes.
When the count down timer gets to 0 minutes turn the urn off.
Place the other end of the silcone hose into the bottom of the jerry can so that your hose goes from the tap of the urn to the bottom of the jerry can. Open the tap and let the liquid fill the jerry can up. You may need to tilt the urn to get more liquid out. Try and leave as much hop crap at the bottom of the urn as possible but it doesn't really matter too much for your first brew.

Once done, place the jerry can against a wall and use your knee to squeeze it so that there's as little air inside as possible. You can even half tighten the lid and squeeze and more air will come out but probably not any liquid. Then fully tighten the lid and kick the jerry can over so it's on its side.

Wait 24 hours for it to cool down.

Then once it's cool transfer to your fermenter and add the yeast as per normal.

Done. Worry about all the finer details on your subsequent brews.


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## Samuel Adams

Thanks for the links BribieG - Having a read through them today.

Mark, cheers for the write-up mate. 


I'll be giving this a go for sure in the future, whether I get an Urn or just start out with a large pot.

Cheers


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## MarkBastard

Yeah I just said urn because it's turn-key.

When I first asked for advice everyone was saying to get a pot and a lot of people were saying make sure it's big enough to do double batches because you'll for sure want to do double batches anyway, but that was horrible advice. I ended up throwing that big pot out and getting an urn. Would have been better off just starting with the above equipment in the first place and not mucking around.

Likewise I had an attempt to make my own BIAB bag but it was a nightmare. Even bought a cheap little sewing machine off Ebay. what a waste of money that ended up being. The store bought bag seems expensive but it is specialty equipment and it works very well.

And then that recipe I think is the most forgiving one I can think of. A lot of people say Dr's Golden Ale but I don't think that's the best recipe for a new brewer.


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## np1962

Samuel Adams said:


> Great thread Justin, on my way to AG brewing one step at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> I know this thread is over 4 years old but can anyone give me a link to this thread mentioned above ?
> 
> Cheers


Jayse's guide as mentioned is in the articles section.
HERE

Cheers
Nige


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## manticle

Never saw this thread when I was first starting out - would have helped a tun (ha, ha, ha, ha, sorry).

I did keep it simple for my first few though


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## Hatchy

NigeP62 said:


> Jayse's guide as mentioned is in the articles section.
> HERE
> 
> Cheers
> Nige



My beer has improved out of sight since I learnt to listen to Led Zeppelin on brewday, prior to reading that guide I'd have my music on random play but it really is cricial to listen to Led Zeppelin.


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## Lecterfan

Hatchy said:


> My beer has improved out of sight since I learnt to listen to Led Zeppelin on brewday, prior to reading that guide I'd have my music on random play but it really is cricial to listen to Led Zeppelin.




Funny that, while this post was useful for me also I actually tweaked things a bit and listen to Black Sabbath instead. The beer comes out a bit darker and with a heavier body. :icon_chickcheers:


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## proudscum

Lecterfan said:


> Funny that, while this post was useful for me also I actually tweaked things a bit and listen to Black Sabbath instead. The beer comes out a bit darker and with a heavier body. :icon_chickcheers:




As for this independent brewer its all PUNKROCK and beer and skittles.
In your face spiky non conformist with a lot of attention to the art.


----------



## yardy

Lecterfan said:


> Funny that, while this post was useful for me also I actually tweaked things a bit and listen to Black Sabbath instead. The beer comes out a bit darker and with a heavier body. :icon_chickcheers:




Dark Side Of The Moon will bring forward an excellent Stout.


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## Lecterfan

proudscum said:


> As for this independent brewer its all PUNKROCK and beer and skittles.
> In your face spiky non conformist with a lot of attention to the art.




Not sure if it counts but I did a Dead Kennedys Amarillo SMaSH last weekend...(bedtime for democracy)

I'm also quite fond of bottling to Zappa.


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## bunyips

Doc said:


> Here it is in PDF Format.
> 
> Enjoy,
> Doc


 Very well written Justin
Discovered this about a year ago and have only just become ready to do some AG brewing (a big cyclone kinda messed things up).
Was wondering where to get some basic beginnings with building a system to brew AG and stumbled on your article. Thanks ...will be looking for a good quality Stainless pot during the week. And it begins...


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## PranK

Thanks for this post. Super helpful. Particularly the sanitisation - makes sense now that pre-boil equip doesnt need sanitising... I hadnt even thought of that.

Christian


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## Bribie G

Yes that's the difference between kit brewing and AG brewing. With kits you even need to sterilize the can opener :lol: 
However with AG, once the boil is finished, you have stepped over the line from "hot side" operations to "cold side" operations. 
Once you are on the cold side, then no amount of sanitation and hygiene is too much - fortunately I've avoided infections and such like for about 2 years now. 

I'd advise getting a good supply of Starsan and use liberally on everything.


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## MartinOC

Hatchy said:


> My beer has improved out of sight since I learnt to listen to Led Zeppelin on brewday, prior to reading that guide I'd have my music on random play but it really is cricial to listen to Led Zeppelin.





Lecterfan said:


> Funny that, while this post was useful for me also I actually tweaked things a bit and listen to Black Sabbath instead. The beer comes out a bit darker and with a heavier body. :icon_chickcheers:





proudscum said:


> As for this independent brewer its all PUNKROCK and beer and skittles.
> In your face spiky non conformist with a lot of attention to the art.





yardy said:


> Dark Side Of The Moon will bring forward an excellent Stout.





Lecterfan said:


> Not sure if it counts but I did a Dead Kennedys Amarillo SMaSH last weekend...(bedtime for democracy)
> 
> I'm also quite fond of bottling to Zappa.


My first post on the forum!

I just LOVED Justin's original post (Sadly, some 30+ years after I started homebrewing!). To distill:

Read/research voraciously.

Accept information/advice cautiously.

Start simply.

Practice continually.

Drink judiciously during the learning phase (One of my golden rules has always been "NO drinking before sparging!").

And...crank-up the stereo whilst brewing. I've made multi state/national & 1 International-award winners that I've named after the music I was listening-to on brew-day.

The lesson is: Knowledge, not gear.

Slainte!


----------



## bum

In case anyone missed it:



MartinOC said:


> _*Accept information/advice cautiously.*_


Nice first post, Martin.


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## Nick JD

This thread is 7 years old.


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## bum

Good advice is soooo 7 years ago.

DELETE!!!


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## MartinOC

"I've made multi state/national & 1 International-award winners"

Good advice is thousands of years old, but some falls on deaf ears, because they're "new" to the game & know WAAAY so much more......


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## Nick JD

This thread needs some Strongbad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1eDmuYQg8


----------



## woodwormm

Just wondering what efficiency I should guess at in Brewmate when designing a recipe for my first brew in a new BIAB rig. Bearing in mind i'm coming from K&K so I have no prior Ag experience

cheers


----------



## Phillo

Whenever I change my system around and am unsure of what efficiency I will get, I use 65.

I just changed to 3V today, so naturally got several things wrong and hit about 67. I usually get about 75 with BIAB, but that's after learning my setup.


----------



## Pickaxe

My 2c, partials are good practice with lower risk.
Keep recipes simple.
Don't get too caught up with numbers, eff, ibus etc, but, write everything down, measure and observe. By that I mean, don't get disheartened with low eff, batch volumes not working out ad planned etc. Just keep doing it.

Plan, brew, observe, drink, repeat.


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## Pickaxe

Kyuss or qotsa is my brew music of choice, or any desert rock. Melvins too.


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## TasChris

When a poster asked who's opinion to follow recently the answer should have been any of the posters on the first 2-3 pages, especially Justin and Jayse. Theses two gents certainly were the guys along with How To Brew that got me on the road to AG.

Great necro thread, those were the days!

Cheers
Chris


----------



## eclessia

I used to do BIAB in a Crown Urn in my apartment kitchen (because I had no balcony or backyard).

I had a kegerator and was doing about 2-3 kegs a month. The problem was that I was producing far more than I could/should drink so I ended up giving it up. 

I've since moved into a house with a small outside area and I'm thinking about getting back into brewing.

I'd like to put together a small AG system to product 9L batches - ideally outside on LPG - and probably still BIAB. 

Does anyone also produce really small batches?

Any advice on a thrifty and simple setup would be appreciated. 

Cheers

Mat


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## slcmorro

eclessia said:


> The problem was that I was producing far more than I could/should drink so I ended up giving it up.


This is a problem!?


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## spryzie

I produce 16L batches with my Big W 19L pot and a bag.

I'm certain you could make 9L batches with the same setup!

I use a 1 ring gas ring burner hooked up to my BBQ gas bottle.

What else do you want to know?


----------



## eclessia

Thanks spryzie, 

I guess I was more curios about whether I need to adjust the process at all. For example, pitching less yeast.

Or is it just a matter of scaling down the recipe?

This article pretty much covers everything though - http://byo.com/european-pale-lager/item/1378-small-scale-brewing

Good thread here too - http://brewadelaide.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.0

Cheers

Mat


----------



## rodj6

Hi, 

I'm starting to collect items for a 3v setup. I am targeting around 40L - 50L batches, and I have two old kegs for my MLT and boil kettle. A mate of mine has offered me an old hot water system (rheem 162400) it has two 4800 w elements. I was thinking that I could cut the bottom 70l off to use as a HLT and use the other element in the BK. Is this a reasonable thing to attempt or am I wasting my time?

Rod


----------



## matt77

Hi all.
I followed a few videos on Utube and noted the following points.. anyone keen to have a read and add or dispell any content?


Grain: Barley
Cracked through rollers
"Strike water" to seep grains generally 60 minutes . Longer if ratio water to grain is lower.
Mash ratio 1.33 or 1.25 quarts water per pound grain (generally) 2-3 litres per kilo

Aim is 152F (66.667°C) generally heat strike to 168F (75.556°C) to allow for grain & tun cooling.
Mash cooler for lighter/less body (pale ale)
Full bodied bolder beer mash higher temp
148F (64.44°C)-160F (71.11°C)

Tun= (or mash tun) pot for mashing strike water and grains. Generally a large esky/"cooler" to help maintain temperature. With a filter manifold to drain water leaving grains.
Add water first & check for leaks
Add grains mix to prevent hot spots or clumps
Leave to let enzymes in grain start creating sugars
Heat sparge water generally to 168F (if sparging)

SPARGE
Drain water from bottom of tun until is runs clean (no bits of grain) gently replace drained tun back into tun
Then drain into boil kettle
Use sparge water to keep water level in tun full
Don't disturb grain cake that is now acting as a filter
You can sparge in 10 minutes or over hours.
Continuous sparge . Sparge water runs into tun as tun runs into boil kettle
Batch sparge. Water drained from tun into boil kettle. Sparge water refills tun to seep grains again.
No sparge. Add all the water required to tun and drain once.

Want a bit more water than final wort volume to allow for evaporation during boil.

Boil for 60 minutes adding hops at required times
Just before boiling. Foamy "heart break" on top will form and can quickly boil over making a huge mess. Back off heat. And monitor. Foamy proteins will reabsorb into boiling wort.

Hops can create more foaming add carefully


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## TheSumOfAllBeers

rodj6 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm starting to collect items for a 3v setup. I am targeting around 40L - 50L batches, and I have two old kegs for my MLT and boil kettle. A mate of mine has offered me an old hot water system (rheem 162400) it has two 4800 w elements. I was thinking that I could cut the bottom 70l off to use as a HLT and use the other element in the BK. Is this a reasonable thing to attempt or am I wasting my time?
> 
> Rod



I would leave the hot water system intact - it will insulate better and that means it will hold temps better. Gives you options for overnight heating of your liquor, and also for putting in a HERMS coil.

But yeah it will only need one element, but double check the second is suitable for the BK.


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## madpie

Justin said:


> *Advice and Recommendations for those starting out in all grain home brewing*
> 
> There are lots of people getting into All grain brewing these days. All too often though I see newcomers leaping into the AG side of brewing before they have really grasped the concepts and knowledge and they make a lot of mistakes and spend a lot of unnecessary money (hey, I've been there! Words of experience). It can be very daunting and no one can be expected to know everything before starting out but with the right advice and a bit of thought and planning you can do it in a more efficient way. I thought I might take the time to write an article for the aspiring all grain brewer that highlights a few of the pitfalls experienced by new comers to all grain home brewing, particularly in regards to getting started with equipment for the brewery.
> 
> Going back less than 10 years there were few home brewers brewing all grain, mostly due to a lack of available knowledge but also due to the lack of access to ingredients, ideas, equipment etc. The internet has certainly driven this boom in the number of AG brewer as it has allowed people to gain access to the information and communicate with others of similar interests where they can share knowledge and experience. However, it has also done a pretty good job of both confusing and misleading those starting out due to a wealth of conflicting and incorrect statements and advice.
> 
> This article aims to just offer a few things to think about if you're interested in AG brewing and are looking to dabble or shift to AG and have been pondering building your own system. Brewers wanting to get into AG brewing but looking for a place to start seem to be looking for guidance to starting their home system so I thought I offer a few recommendations and pieces of advice that I have learnt along the way.
> 
> It can be a daunting process getting started because of the myths and misconceptions coupled with the fact there are a broad range of knowledge and experience levels out there participating in forums. We have new brewers coming through looking for hints and advice, experience brewers talking on more technical issues, people offering up advice in an effort to help and then people who dont know much but profess to know all and it can be a pretty confusing place. What I see a lot of though is people coming into building an all grain brewery all guns blazing because they are keen and motivated yet blindly following what others have done. Its great to see that on this forum at least, a lot of people are doing their research, utilizing the information that has been posted previously and then making their own decisions.
> 
> However as I alluded to at the start, I see a fair few newcomers coming into the hobby, keen as mustard with their new found hobby and then leaping into building his/her brewery before they have really grasped the concepts and understood how to go about it and wasting a lot of money, time and effort. This is particularly prevalent on many of the other forums (both Australian and US based) so I thought I would write a few comments to help the new brewer, who is keen to build, sift through the maze of info out there and come out with a good functional brewery they have designed and built themselves.
> 
> There are a lot of websites based on peoples home breweries, but not all of the info posted on them is necessarily the greatest information, nor is it always correct, efficient or sound. People give all sorts of reasons why they did what they did in an attempt to justify their expenditure. The sooner you realize this the better off your brewery will be and the less money and messing around you are going to experience. You're free to spend what you want on your brewery but Im just hoping that with a bit of thought and planning you can go about it in the most cost effective way.
> 
> Now there are good websites out there with good solid information, but what the new comer has to realize is that the trick is to sift over the range of websites and weed out the bad ones and remember the good ones. There are no guidelines or standards to regulate what is posted on the net and unfortunately a lot of these websites are posted by keen, but very inexperienced brewers keen to put back some info that they hope will help others like themselves, as well as justifying to themselves their choices for various things. Its a form of self reassurance. But for those starting out, don't be afraid to back yourself and your ideas if you think you can do it better. Use what others have done, but use your head about it.
> 
> However, for the new AG brewer here are some points to remember when you start down the AG brewing road:
> 
> 1. *Keep it simple.* All grain brewing can be a very simple process indeed, so dont make it harder on yourself. Anyone can do it and you dont really need to know that much to get started and produce pretty good beer if you already have some sound knowledge of kit based beers and good sanitation/fermentation techniques. Do some reading on the subject and try to get a handle on the basic process, you can refine and expand your knowledge as you get further into it. Have a go, if it doesn't come out great don't be disheartened. Learn from it and try again, you'll get it second go and very likely will brew a good beer first go.
> 
> 2. *Dont be drawn into the race for gadgets and to make things look cool.* People are proud of their breweries and rightly so, but at least in the first instance dont let it deter you by thinking that to make good beer you have to spend big dollars and buy all this gear and have all stainless vessels. So many of the home breweries out there are filled to the brim with crazy gadgets, electronics and shiny things. Its a hobby, people get excited, addicted, carried away etc. While that is fine and you are free to add/buy whatever you want, but dont feel intimidated by an apparent need for technical equipment. All you really need is some very basic equipment and some simple techniques all the rest is bling factor.
> 
> 3. *Understand what your needs are and what you want to achieve. * Remember that each person has different needs, budget, restrictions, time, interests and skills etc. Therefore, build a brewery to suit yourself. Brewing frames are cool, but you might not have the room for one-but thats ok because you can work around this. If you need to pack up after every brew session design your system to suit. If you can leave it in place then youre a lucky person indeed and have a range of additional options open to you. But if you cant weld or dont have access to a welder your still ok. Use whatever supports you have to make yourself a tier or two and lift if you have to. There are ways and means so find out how you can make your brewery work for you.
> 
> 4. *Start out simple and grow from there. * You dont need a big complex rig to make it all work. My best advice is to throw together something cheap and simple that you can get your feet wet on. Experience is the key here. The more hands on brewing experience you can gain before you invest in a major rig the better your system is going to be and the less money and heartache its going to cost you. By actually getting in there and brewing you will find out if AG brewing is actually for you, youll get a feel for the techniques and requirements that make things work, and youll also understand parts of the process you would like to streamline and adapt to your situation.
> 
> 5. *Research what others have done but dont blindly copy their system.* Understand whats going in the various stages of brewing, it really is very simple. You should be able to visualize brewing an entire batch of beer on someone elses system just from photos. If you cant work out how to go through the process and how it works then you probably should do a little more reading on the topic until you can understand whats going on and where. Hopefully these people built their system to suit their need, thats what you want to do too. Their needs are not your needs necessarily, so dont just blindly copy their system. If you look close enough and give it enough thought you should be able to pick the mistakes and poorly designed aspects of their brewery. Dont make the same mistakes, learn from their example.
> 
> Think about what you want and need, but don't be afraid to adapt or change something so that is suits your purpose better. As I said at the start, AG brewing is essentially a very simple process and only requires very simple equipment. Things such as HERMS and RIMS are in most instances totally unnecessary, so don't think that you're going to have to build a HERMS or RIMS to be able to make good beer. These systems are usually employed because a stainless keg looks cool for a mash tun but sucks from an insulation point of view. If you're looking for a great mash tun and a simple brewery get an esky and be eternally happy with your ability to leave it unattended during the mash. If you want to build a herms or rims system don't build one at the start, add it into you brewery later on once you've got the basics down and know what you are doing and you have decided that you really do need it. I couldn't think of anything worse than trying to learn to AG brew on a HERMS or RIMS system. Remember, keep it simple.
> 
> 
> 6. *Plan your system well before you leap in and build.* Visualise what you want to achieve and then draw a plan of how you want to build it and how you want to use it. Then play out a brew day on your diagram, is it going to work, what stuff is unnecessary, what should I change? What problems am I likely to experience? How high is it and can I access the mash tun? How do I empty the mash tun with heavy wet grain and can I drain all the hoses and lines to keep it all clean? If I mount some thermometers here, are they actually going to be covered by the grain or water?
> 
> Some extra time spend now in planning will save you time, effort and money down the track and your system will work much better without (or fewer) little niggles or things like "I wish I thought of that".
> 
> 7. *A note on temperature control.* When your dealing with 25+ litres of hot water (or hot water plus grain) is doesn't heat very quickly, nor does it cool particularly fast. Thermostats are nice but your not going to keep over shooting your sparge water temps because your vessel heats too quick while you're not looking. It also doesn't cool down that quick either, so don't worry too much about having automatic temp control in your mash or HLT. It doesn't matter if your sparge water is a degree or two cooler than you were hoping for you'll still have a good sparge. It's not that important. Try to have your mash tun correct and insulated and you should make nice consistent beer. Add things like thermostats later on if you decide you need it.
> 
> 8. *Some points on height.* If you can, keep your system low. Your mash tun is the most important vessel for access. You need to get to it to measure the temp, add in the grain and stir the mash. If you can avoid it try not to place your mash tun at a height where you need to stand on something (eg. Ladder) to get in there. When you're brewing on your own it can be quite tricky to pour your grain in and stir at the same time, worse if your standing on a ladder. I find it amusing when looking at some of the commercial systems (B3, Sabco) that employ pumps to move liquid yet for your $5000 investment you still have to balance on a ladder to access the most important vessel and mash in. These systems use a pump-so why not actually use it .
> 
> 9. *But which valves do I have open?* Wow, look at all those valves, that looks cool. Now which one do I open again? Try to make your plumbing as simple and as idiot proof as you can by minimizing the number of hoses and valves. Not only will it save you money but trust me, the more valves you have on the system the more times you're going to leave the wrong one open-and it will happen. Throw in something like hard copper plumbing and you won't even realize liquid is quietly moving from one vessel to the other under gravity until your HLT is full of wort from the mash tun because you can't see in the lines. Keep it simple again.
> 
> 10. *But I need sanitary welds and fittings on all my vessels.* No you don't. Anything that is preboil does not need to be sanitized. As long as you can clean it without too much trouble I wouldn't worry too much about welds or hoses or valves on the preboil side of your brewery. Do worry about what your beer touches and where your beer goes after the boil and after it's chilled. If you have lots of extra plumbing on the output of the kettle it just makes more for you to sanitize and increases the chance of some nasties hiding. If you can run off straight into your fermenter it can't get much better than that.
> 
> 11. *Don't get hung up on the minor things.* As I've said before AG brewing is easy so don't get too bogged down on the details. Little things like how you build a rotating sparge arm to sprinkle water onto the grain bed don't make a lot of difference. As long as you can get the sparge water into the mash tun it's going to work, it doesn't have to be carefully sprinkled in a rotating fashion so as not to disturb the grain bed. Experience from actually doing a brew or two beforehand is going to come in handy here and hopefully you will realize that aspects like this are not that important. Get the water into the tun, get the wort out the bottom and then boil it.
> 
> 12. *Don't let a lack of equipment prevent you from having a go.* You don't have to brew 25 or 50L batches. If you have a 20L stock pot you're in a position to give this AG thing a go. With an extra bucket or two you can be brewing all grain. Take for example the All in One brewery thread that is currently underway on this forum. If there is a will there's a way. Although, I probably wouldn't bother trying to make the All in One work for me, I think it would just be easier to use an extra bucket or two that can then pack away inside each other if space is tight, but if it works for you then go for it.
> 
> 
> What if I want to add or spend more on my equipment? I'm not saying that you shouldn't spend the money on your brewery or do it on the cheap. It's up to you how you tackle it, but many people are on a budget. I think the first piece of equipment one should buy though if they are prepared to invest in AG brewing is a good size kettle and a burner powerful enough to boil it. This gives you the immediate option to brew full volume boils of extract based beers and then easily move into AG brewing as funds or time allow. I have to whole heartedly back the use of a good sized aluminium or stainless pot in the size range of 50-60L. Trust me that the initial outlay is well worth it and it is an item that you will always have. Please resist the temptation to source a 50L stainless keg from the back of a pub or wherever. The number of kegs being put to use in home breweries in Australia is soon going to be an amount significant enough that it will attract the attention of the rightful owners to the point that it will be worthwhile to legally pursue. It's best to avoid this from the first outset for everyone's sake and never worry again. $100-150 for an aluminium boiler is actually one of the cheaper things you'll end up buying for your home brewery.
> 
> From here you can fill in the rest of the items as you see fit and can afford the items. Don't rule out the benefits of scrounging an item but if in the end it comes down to buying it, don't sweat it too much. If you're in this hobby for the long haul then your brew gear will last a very long time indeed and pay for itself before long and if it comes to it, brew gear seems to have excellent resale value.
> 
> So hopefully this article will help give you some direction from which to approach a move towards all grain brewing. If you approach it in a logical manner, try to contain your enthusiasm (I know it's hard  ), read plenty of information and try your best to educate yourself before you invest, hopefully you should be able to build an excellent, well functioning brewery first go that will serve you for many years. Then all that is left to do is start working towards brewing the best beers you have tasted. It's a fun hobby and if you're keen enough AG brewing can also be a heap of fun.
> 
> Best of luck with your brewing.
> Justin


G'Day Justin,

Great article. Could you please give me some specific advice regarding equipment? I would like to start all grain. What gear do I need to get going? I have looked at Brewzilla and Grainfather, but I like the idea of the 3 pots on a bench. Should I start with a bag? Thanks for any advice. Cheers Paul


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## New 2 The Brew

madpie said:


> G'Day Justin,
> 
> Great article. Could you please give me some specific advice regarding equipment? I would like to start all grain. What gear do I need to get going? I have looked at Brewzilla and Grainfather, but I like the idea of the 3 pots on a bench. Should I start with a bag? Thanks for any advice. Cheers Paul



Hey madpie, I just got into all-grain brewing and bought a 65L brewzilla. Couldn't be happier. My mate has a 40ish litre braumeister and it is a really nice piece of equipment.

Even though I have never used a 3V system I would recommend the 1V. It's so easy and doesn't take up much space. Less cleaning I would imagine as well.

For gear, I will give you a list of things I think you NEED. I will probably miss some.
- Vessel for brewing (Must be able to boil and have the ability to measure and set temperature with reasonable accuracy)
- Bag or basket (included with most systems)
- Sparge SS pot (10-30L)
- A way to cool down batch (immersions are included in brewzilla, grainfather etc) or you can use cubes.
- Fermenting drums (I just use 35L ones from homebrew shops)
- Storage for beer (kegs or bottles)
- sanitizer

Things that I use which are really helpful.
- spare fridge and inkbird for temperature control during fermentation
- SS tools (mash paddle to stir/ break clumps, hop basket to hang inside boil, etc...)
- drying rack for bottles
- bar fridge set up for kegs with lines (can be the same fridge as the spare fridge)
- grain mill (you need it if you plan on buying uncracked grain)

My next purchase will probably be a large fermenter so I don't have to use 2 on my 50L batches. I might even splurge on the fermzilla. Also considering upgrading the sparge system to some kind of hot water kettle with temperature control so I don't have to keep checking the stove during brew days.
Final addition would be upgrading the cooling system, as the immersion chiller wastes a lot of water. I was thinking of using an ice filled esky with a small pump to recirculate water through it once the output temp drops below 50ish.


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