# 4 Pines ESB-alike



## mkj (25/3/14)

I grabbed a bottle of 4 Pines ESB the other day, it'd have to be one of the best beers I've had in a while - rich malty and raisiny, but clean and nicely balanced. They've helpfully got a start of a recipe listed on their website.


_5.6%_

_Beginning gravity 13.5 (so ~1.053)_
_End gravity 3 (~1.013)_

_Bittering hops Target_
_Finishing Willamette, East Kent, Fuggles_
_40 IBU_

_Ale, Maris Otter, Crystal, Munich, Caramunich, Biscuit_



Anyone got an idea about the yeast they're using?


----------



## pk.sax (25/3/14)

Won't have a great idea. It could be simply us05 considering how clean it is.

If it were my choice I'd use the ringwood ale yeast from own experience of using English yeasts between a couple of dry ones and the ringwood.


----------



## pat_00 (27/3/14)

I really like this beer, hope you get something close to it.


----------



## hupthomas (19/7/14)

Had a bottle of this the other day & was excellent.Can anyone help with the possible grain weights / percentages for a 23 lt batch?Also with the hops what do you reckon the times ,weights & order of adding would be?

Cheers


----------



## hupthomas (19/7/14)

Ps.As described on the first post these are the ingredients off the 4 Pines website.Thanks


----------



## Topher (18/8/14)

Agreed on this, fantastic beer. Might try play around with this on beersmith, 

Anyone got a further recipe idea.


----------



## OneEye (18/8/14)

Wyeast West Yorkshire 1469 for any English beer is always a winner


----------



## Blind Dog (18/8/14)

If I was going to try a clone (and I'm tempted) I'd start at something like:

85% Maris otter
10% Munich 
4% biscuit
3% caramunich I
3% dark crystal (or maybe breiss extra special)

Target at 60 min to get about 25ibu, fuggles at 20min for 5ibu and then EKG and Willamette at flame out to give 5ibus each

Wy1098/wlp005 or wy1275/wlp023


And then try to work out what needs tweaking.


----------



## going down a hill (18/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> If I was going to try a clone (and I'm tempted) I'd start at something like:
> 
> 85% Maris otter
> 10% Munich
> ...


That's a good looking recipe regardless. Wy1968 is a good yeast for it as well.


----------



## Blind Dog (20/8/14)

Bought and drank 2 of these tonight purely in the interests of assisting a fellow brewer. Had one cold (6c) from the fridge (meh) and one poured and left until it hit 11c (yum!!!!). Cold it's just another beer with hints of complexity. Warmer the malts really shine and the hops are turned up. I got raisins, burnt toast, warm fresh bread, marmalade, a little oak and a lovely long bitter finish.

For a 1st attempt at something close I'm going with my recipe above, but with briess extra special or caraaroma not dark crystal and probably up that to closer to 5%

Yeast adds little so I'm tempted by a us Yeast like 1272 or possibly Nottingham if doing dry yeast


----------



## Ciderman (24/8/14)

Anyone brewed this yet? Going to give this a go in a few weeks.


----------



## rusty274 (2/9/14)

Hi Guys,

Pretty keen to try this recipe at the weekend. it will be my 3rd BIAB. So i'm new to all grain.

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out how to enter this into beersmith. 

Blind Dogs Recipe:

85% Maris otter
10% Munich 
4% biscuit
3% caramunich I
3% dark crystal (or maybe breiss extra special)

Target at 60 min to get about 25ibu, fuggles at 20min for 5ibu and then EKG and Willamette at flame out to give 5ibus each

I will need to fill a 21ltr cube. I'm not sure how much Malt or hops (sorry maths isn't my strong point) 

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks, Rusty


----------



## Blind Dog (2/9/14)

Clearly maths isn't my strong point either ad that adds up to 105%

Anyway try at 75 % efficiency

4.00kg Maris otter (80%)
0.50kg Munich (10%)
0.20kg biscuit (4%)
0.15kg caramunich (3%)
0.15kg dark crystal (3%)

20g target (10.5%) at 60 min
15g Fuggles (4.5%) at 20 min
25g EKG (5.0%) at flameout (20 min steep)
25g Willamette (5.5%) at flameout (20 min steep)

Should end up around 1.044 OG, 40 ish IBU and ABV 5.5% or so depending on yeast


----------



## Blind Dog (2/9/14)

Oh and if it looks too light, maybe sub the dark crystal for caraaroma, or add 50g chocolate malt


----------



## rusty274 (3/9/14)

Cheers Blind Dog.

Recipe is coming together. Only problem is my LHBS does't have any target hops. Not sure weather to sub or shop around.

Anyway, thanks heaps for the help. I'll let you know how i go.

Rusty


----------



## Blind Dog (3/9/14)

Any English hop will work, just sub in Beersmith and adjust the quantity to get around 25ibu. Challenger, admiral, Northdown or EKG should be fine. They are all different, but reasonably subtle. Or even Magnum, although that will lose some of the flavour an english hop would bring


----------



## rusty274 (6/9/14)

Put the brew down today. Came up short on gravity 1041. Tasted pretty good after the boil. Sitting in a cube now and will pitch wyeast 1275 tomorrow.

Not sure how it will compare to 4pines but should be nice beer all the same. 

Thanks again Blind Dog for the recipe.


----------



## mkj (7/9/14)

On Thursday I got round to brewing this, close to Blind Dog's. Unfortunately didn't get any Willamette. Went with US-05

5.25 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 80.2 % 
0.60 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) 9.2 % 
0.30 kg Victory Malt (49.2 EBC) 4.6 % 
0.20 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) 3.1 % 
0.20 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (216.7 EBC) 3.1 % 
21 g Target [11.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min 29.4 IBUs 
30 g Fuggles [4.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min 5.6 IBUs 
20 g Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] - Boil 20.0 4.8 IBUs 

I couldn't get any bottles of the genuine 4 Pines ESB today though - Mane Liquor don't sell it any more, and the 4 Pines website says it isn't bottled. Has that changed or something?


----------



## Ciderman (8/9/14)

mkj said:


> On Thursday I got round to brewing this, close to Blind Dog's. Unfortunately didn't get any Willamette. Went with US-05
> 
> 5.25 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 80.2 %
> 0.60 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) 9.2 %
> ...


Looks good, how did you go and what volume did you get?


----------



## mkj (15/11/14)

Ciderman said:


> Looks good, how did you go and what volume did you get?


Was about 20L - not great efficiency. I figured why Mane Liquor aren't selling it, it was the Keller Door seasonal, now there's something else.

Tasting it now it's not bad but quite a strong astringency/vegemite type flavour in it. (No, I don't think it's autolysis, it had that kind of flavour even early in the ferment). I'm assuming it was too much Victory, will try again some time with a bit less.


----------



## bingggo (28/1/15)

How did yours turn out, rusty?


----------



## mkj (16/10/15)

This is back in the bottleshops with a new blue label. Seems to have lost most of the raisiny sweetness that made it so good before, boo!


----------



## bingggo (2/12/15)

I brewed this to Blind Dog's suggestion earlier this year, and it was ok but not great (and definitely didn't have the intensity/flavours of the 4 Pines ESB). That could be my novice experience rather than the recipe! I also had to sub a couple of ingredients from the LHBS. An experienced brewer said it was ok, but suggested an English yeast would have been better - I think I used S05.

4.00kg Maris otter (80%)
0.50kg Munich (10%)
0.20kg Amber (instead of Biscuit) (4%)
0.15kg Carared (instead of Caramunich I) (3%)
0.15kg dark crystal (3%)

20g target (10.5%) at 60 min
15g Fuggles (4.5%) at 20 min
25g EKG (5.0%) at flameout (20 min steep)
25g Willamette (5.5%) at flameout (20 min steep)

I'm going to give it another go with more Maris Otter, Biscuit instead of Amber, and drop the Carared/Caramunich I entirely as I had some Crystal leftovers I want to use with the same hop schedule:

23.5L OG 1.052 FG: 1.015
IBU: 38 EBC: 19.5
4.50kg Maris otter (83.1%)
0.50kg Munich (9.2%)
0.20kg Biscuit (3.7%)
0.14kg Crystal 120L (2.6%)
0.08kg Crystal 60L (1.4%)

And Windsor or Nottingham dried yeast. Any suggestions, or has anyone found a better approach


----------



## kunfaced (2/12/15)

OP said it had ale malt in it too, based on the 4-pines website. Or am I reading it wrong? Has a pretty different taste to straight MO.


----------



## Blind Dog (2/12/15)

I've brewed and tweaked this a few times and ended up happiest with:

[SIZE=10.5pt]80% Simpsons Maris Otter[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]13% Weyermann Munich 1 [/SIZE]
2.8% Weyermann Caraaroma 
2.8% Briess Extra Special (or Dark Crystal)
1,4% Simpsons Chocolate
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Challenger (7.9%) as FWH to give 9 IBU[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Challenger (7.9%) at 60min to give 31 IBU (no adjustment for no chill)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]EKG (5%) at 15 min to give 9 IBU (as I no chill these were added at flame out, wort whirlpooled for a few minutes and allowed to cool to 85C (covered) then transferred to cube)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]WLP 002 at 18C until done and then left for 10 days post FG to clean up[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Mash: 68C for 45 min; 72C for 20; mashout 78C[/SIZE]

I dropped the biscuit type malts as I don't think you need them with an MO base. I find the Munich necessary to add a layer of malt complexity and the darker crystals to add the ark caramel and dried fruit notes, but they need a fairly light touch to avoid too much bitterness. The WLP002 is the Fuller's strain and accentuates the maltiness.

Of your listed dried yeast options, IMO Windsor would be better than Nottingham, but the Fuller's strain really does enhance the malts and, IMO, is worth the extra $s

You could also try pulling say 2L or 3L of unhopped wort and boiling that hard into a syrup (taking care not to burn it) to add another dimension


----------

