# Deep Crystal/raisin Character In Uk Ales. How To Get?



## mje1980 (15/9/10)

Hey guys, i just tried a Wells bombadier, and loved the deep crystal/raisin character of it. Im ahppy with my bitters, but would love to get a more deep crystal character to them. I love caramunich 2 and 3 for my bitters, but im thinking i might need to go to caraaroma or similar for a deeper more pronounced character. 

What sayeth you??


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## bconnery (15/9/10)

mje1980 said:


> Hey guys, i just tried a Wells bombadier, and loved the deep crystal/raisin character of it. Im ahppy with my bitters, but would love to get a more deep crystal character to them. I love caramunich 2 and 3 for my bitters, but im thinking i might need to go to caraaroma or similar for a deeper more pronounced character.
> 
> What sayeth you??


Caraaroma is a great crystal in english beers. 
Dark Crystal would be another option.


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## mje1980 (15/9/10)

Cheers mate. Which dark crystal? I dont use JW crystals, as i find them harsh. Keen to try the simpsons crystal though.


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## bum (15/9/10)

While you're looking at Simpsons - their Aromatic is supposed to be pretty heavy on the raisins, isn't it? Worth thinking about?


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## mje1980 (15/9/10)

Cheers bum!


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## Dazza_devil (15/9/10)

I was just looking at the Simpson's on the CraftBrewer website.
Is that a typo, they are calling it Areomatic as opposed to Dingeman's Aromatic.


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## Sammus (15/9/10)

yeah looks like a typo, it has no 'e' on the simpsons webpage: http://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/jps.asp


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## goatherder (15/9/10)

I like to use country of origin malts when brewing to style. Try dropping the German malts from your bitters and give the English crystals a try.

English dark crystal is wonderful and has the raisin notes you are looking for. I use Bairds because that's what I can get locally but I'm sure TF and Simpsons are just as good.

Also, try to keep your recipes simple, 3 malts max I reckon.


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## bconnery (15/9/10)

goatherder said:


> I like to use country of origin malts when brewing to style. Try dropping the German malts from your bitters and give the English crystals a try.
> 
> English dark crystal is wonderful and has the raisin notes you are looking for. I use Bairds because that's what I can get locally but I'm sure TF and Simpsons are just as good.
> 
> Also, try to keep your recipes simple, 3 malts max I reckon.


I think Bairds is the dark crystal I use too from memory, whatever Craftbrewer sells anyway. 
It definitely brings a raisin note. 

With regards to country of origin malts, this can make good beers no question but I still think its the choice of malt for desired flavour that is important. 
And Caraaroma is too good in an english ale in my book to not use sometimes.


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## MHB (15/9/10)

Lots of Dark Crystal, long cool mash and watch the mash out temperature, keep it well down in the mid 70's, I find Challenger hops brings out the character nicely.

Some of the middle sized brewers have small batches (say a ton) of malts made to specification, I know one that was getting 450 EBC crystal made for a very red toned beer. In general I would agree with Goat Herder, but Cara Aroma is the darkest Crystal we can get and it's full of those lovely plum pudding flavours well worth considering if those are the flavours you are looking for.

MHB


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## Nick JD (15/9/10)

Some of that raisin character is coming from the Goldings.


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## Bribie G (15/9/10)

Caraaroma :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:


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## goatherder (15/9/10)

Fair point on the Caraaroma, it is pretty damned good.


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## RdeVjun (15/9/10)

A vote for 3% Caraaroma. On its own or with just a sprinkle of Bairds Dark Caramalt (1-2%) is perhaps even better, IMO, depending on what you want though and there's plenty of ways to dice it I guess.

CB has some cracking typos, one I get a giggle out of is Bohemium! :lol:


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## kevin_smevin (15/9/10)

Dingemans special B will give you raison flavours


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## gjhansford (15/9/10)

So with the grains sorted ... what's the best yeast to get that great raisin and/or marmalade taste?

ghhb


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## Dazza_devil (15/9/10)

Perhaps you might want a yeast that would compliment your malt raisin flavours rather than attempt to add even more raisin. 
I'm no expert on this style but would you really want to get raisin/marmalade flavours from your malt, hops and yeast?
I would use 1028, only because I already have some, it does give some fruit and finishes well.


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

Cheers guys. I was thinking of cara aroma, and looks like i'll give it a crack now. Thanks for all replies guys, keep the thread going if anyone's got more info. 

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVEEEEEEEE Uk ales!!!


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## warra48 (16/9/10)

ghhb said:


> So with the grains sorted ... what's the best yeast to get that great raisin and/or marmalade taste?
> 
> ghhb



Wyeast 1968 is a good candidate.


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

As a reward to myself for painting the living room, i just ordered this:

TF Dark xtal
Cara aroma
Special B
Dingemans aromatic
Golden naked oats
Simpsons aeromatic


And 1968!! 

Will update.


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## RdeVjun (16/9/10)

Some good suggestions in this thread! I also recommend at least a 90 minute boil, for ESBs 120 is what I use nowadays, seems to help in developing some magnificent caramelised character. Bitter with Challenger perhaps for the marmalade, Aromatic malt for the raisin maybe, I'd be be sparing with it though. 1968 should work but I'd also keep an eye out for 1469 when it hits the shelves in the next few weeks.

When assessing the specialty malts to see if they provide the desired UK character, I'd suggest using Bairds Perle which seems a fairly clean, neutral base malt and it may keep things less complicated so that the flavours being targeted are not obfuscated by the base malt. It is a great base malt in its own right though, I use it quite a bit with the Caraaroma and Dark Caramalt mentioned before. Also 5- 10% of the grainbill as sugar won't hurt it a bit, I find it actually winds back that intense overt graininess, without it sometimes balance can be difficult to achieve while still retaining the more subtle flavours. 

My 2c, hope it helps! :icon_cheers:


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## MarkBastard (16/9/10)

Yep cara aroma and give a touch of carafa special T1 as well I reckon.


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## HoppingMad (16/9/10)

Raisins = Currants = Blackcurrant = Bramling Cross?
Craftbrewer's Summary of Bramling Cross Hops

It's a pommie hop that could get you where you need to go. With the malt suggested, you could wind up with a great combo.

Just a thought.

Hopper.


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## drsmurto (16/9/10)

Always been a huge fan of Bairds Dark Crystal for adding the raisin/dried fruit character.

Just ordered the Simpsons Dark Crystal as my Bairds supply is running low.


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## Jimboley (16/9/10)

yum yum yum said:


> Dingemans special B will give you raison flavours




For Sure!!
Special B


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## MattC (16/9/10)

goatherder said:


> Also, try to keep your recipes simple, 3 malts max I reckon.



Is this your approach to Stout as well GH? Ive tried making my stouts simple like you describe, but I found them lacking complexity IMHO. Wondering how you approach them? Base malt, choc and roasted malt? 

Cheers


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## Josh (16/9/10)

Shame we didn't get onto that when you were up yesterday. I would have given you a kilo of Simpsons Dark Crystal.


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

D'oh!! no worries mate, i'll have plenty of the stuff soon. Bitters galore in the next few months.


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## reviled (16/9/10)

Butters gave me a cracker bitter recipe once and it was simple as, from memory

90% Maris Otter
7% caraaroma
3% chocolate

OG:BU ratio of 75%, with fuggles as a flavour addition

A wee bit on the dark side, but it was delicous :icon_drool2:


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## Sammus (16/9/10)

mje1980 said:


> D'oh!! no worries mate, i'll have plenty of the stuff soon. Bitters galore in the next few months.



Bitters galore?! Geez mate youre going soft, what happened to 10min IIPAs and tripels galore?


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

When the next hop buy happens im planning on grabbing some challenger or similar. 10 min EPA. Though i still have heaps of cascade and columbus, so i'll definately do a few more. After i brew the 10 min US brown for the RAF, im thinking of a strong UK ale. You guys have dragged me to the dark side hahaha. 

Reviled, lookls good mate. I always have choc too. First batch will be 95% ale and 5% "insert one of the dark xtals i got here", with all of the malts i got. Looking forward to it.


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## jimi (16/9/10)

Boagsy said:


> Perhaps you might want a yeast that would compliment your malt raisin flavours rather than attempt to add even more raisin.
> I'm no expert on this style but would you really want to get raisin/marmalade flavours from your malt, hops and yeast?
> I would use 1028, only because I already have some, it does give some fruit and finishes well.



Each to their own, but I'd avoid 1028 if I wanted raisins etc. It claims to produce some fruitness but I've always found it well hidden by the much more minerally character it throws. As others have said 1968 is georgeous and I also think 1318 is underated and would match nicely it has a softer sweetness if that makes sense.


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## felten (16/9/10)

definitely a +1 from me for 1968


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## Kai (16/9/10)

bum said:


> While you're looking at Simpsons - their Aromatic is supposed to be pretty heavy on the raisins, isn't it? Worth thinking about?



I haven't done much more with the Aromatic than chew on a few grains, but to me the Simpsons Imperial malt has some nice raisiny qualities. I also second dark crystal in general. Caraaroma is always a great crystal but does get a little roasty and is a lot darker than your regular dark crystal. 

However, what I mainly wanted to add is that freshness is paramount to getting the most out of whatever specialty malt you are using. Especially when the big ticket crystals tend to be the overseas ones and they can sit around for quite a long time before hitting your mash tun.


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## alkos (16/9/10)

warra48 said:


> Simpsons aeromatic



This one surely makes you fly.


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## Dazza_devil (16/9/10)

jimi said:


> Each to their own, but I'd avoid 1028 if I wanted raisins etc. It claims to produce some fruitness but I've always found it well hidden by the much more minerally character it throws. As others have said 1968 is georgeous and I also think 1318 is underated and would match nicely it has a softer sweetness if that makes sense.




I thought he was gonna get raisins from the grain. The subtle fruityness and mineral character, as you mentioned, may compliment the raisin from the grain.
1028 gave a subtle fruityness @ 19 egrees C for me, probably give up more at higher temps.


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## jimi (16/9/10)

Boagsy said:


> I thought he was gonna get raisins from the grain. The subtle fruityness and mineral character, as you mentioned, may compliment the raisin from the grain.
> 1028 gave a subtle fruityness @ 19 egrees C for me, probably give up more at higher temps.



Just a preference thing - if I want raisin to be more pronounced I think more juicy friuty malt sweetness not dry minerally. I keep 1028 for coffee & dry stouts etc ESBs are 1968 all the way :beerbang:


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## Dazza_devil (16/9/10)

jimi said:


> Just a preference thing - if I want raisin to be more pronounced I think more juicy friuty malt sweetness not dry minerally. I keep 1028 for coffee & dry stouts etc ESBs are 1968 all the way :beerbang:




Hmmmm, I've only tried 1028 in an English IPA, which is the purpose I got it for in the first place and it certainly worked well for that.
I'll give it a go in a stout one day perhaps for something different.
I'd also be willing to give it a go at say 21 degrees in an ESB but I'll be trying 1469, when it's out, before I do. 
The guidelines do suggest '....up to a moderate minerally/sulphury flavour. Medium dry to dry finish..'


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## alkos (16/9/10)

Also, you can add real raisins to the fermentor: (I'd toast them first):


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## goatherder (16/9/10)

MattC said:


> Is this your approach to Stout as well GH? Ive tried making my stouts simple like you describe, but I found them lacking complexity IMHO. Wondering how you approach them? Base malt, choc and roasted malt?
> 
> Cheers



No, I was referring to bitters when I said this, although I prefer simple recipes to complex in general.

Stouts need a couple more ingredients I reckon to get the complexity you are chasing. Dry stout would be the exception of course. Base malt, flaked barley or oats, crystal, choc & roast barley is my typical approach.


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## neonmeate (7/10/10)

im just mashing in some simpsons aromatic/areomatic/aeromatic/acrobatic/acrostic/autistic/arithmetic for the first time now and it's very...aromatic!!!!! certainly raisiny.... hope not too raisiny.


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## mje1980 (7/10/10)

Sounds sweet mate. I used some of the naked oats in a strong ale, and even though there was a whack of cara aroma in the bill, you could smell the yumminess of them. Im using them next batch in a UK blonde, think i'll get more of them. 

I have some of that aeromatic, or whatever it is, i got both simpsons, and dingemanns, just to be sure. 

Let us know how it turns out mate.


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## neonmeate (7/10/10)

making a surly furious (which is an amazing minnesota IPA - in a can!) clone

1068, 100IBU

41.5% bairds perle
41.5% bairds GP
9% bairds medium crystal
8% bairds aeriomatique

40g simcoe 60'
20g simcoe 20'
50g ahtanum 10'
50g amarillo 5'
lots and lots of amarillo, ahtanum and simcoe to dryhop

wyeast 1335


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## mje1980 (7/10/10)

That looks awesome !!!


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## under (18/12/11)

Ok. I think im onto something here. Brewed this Amber lager. It really reminded me of Wells Bombadier, well the malt flavour. I know its a lager and all but I think this Malt bill with english hops and yeast would really be a cracker. Someone give it a nudge. And see what you think. Mash 66. IBU 28.

Here it is - 

59% JW Ale
23.6% Pale Wheat
11.7% Munich 1
2.8% Caraaroma
2.8% Caramunich 1


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## mje1980 (19/12/11)

Hey shane, thanks for posting. I've been loving TF pale crystal mixed with simpsons heritage, drooool!!.


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