# No chill in corny keg



## manticle (9/3/14)

Following on from this post:



Florian said:


> that's easy, transfer hot wort to keg, purge head space with Co2, attach a sanitary filter to the gas in post via quick disconnect to allow for the vacuum.
> 
> When ready to ferment, open lid and insert O2 wand into wort and pitch yeast. Or displace Co2 in headspace with air and shake and roll.
> Ideally I'd like to use something like this for oxygen input so the vessel doesn't have to be opened at all, but think it might clog up pretty quickly when left in the vessel.
> ...


can anyone who does this outline their process and things to take into account? Anything not mentioned in the above post?

I'm thinking of retiring my cubes if kegs are a viable alternative.
I know there's a few threads around on this but most are by users who aren't around anymore. There's a few possible negatives mentioned but I'm really interested in hearing from people who have done it. Basically just interested in minimising equipment if it's superflous as well as how easy kegs are to clean, even when left grotty for a while.

PROS: easy to clean and sanitise
Less equipment
Easy to transfer keg to keg with reduced oxygen pickup (and as I currently ferment directly in NC cubes, I'd be hoping to ferment in the keg and transfer purely to remove the beer from the yeast)

CONS:??


Cheers


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## indica86 (9/3/14)

Hmm, I like the idea of not using plastic.


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## Bribie G (9/3/14)

Cons would be getting probably only 17 or 18 L of beer out of the keg as opposed to the full 19 as I do currently due to thick yeast cake robbing your volume. That adds up to a lot of beer over the course of the year. However swings and roundabouts I suppose, less equipment and less cleaning up. Hmm, WillamsKeg system anyone :unsure:

Edit: and the rush of thick yeast slurry through the tap on the first pour could go straight into a Schott bottle and saved for a starter.

Get this stuff out of my mind, please................................ :angry2:


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## breakbeer (9/3/14)

I'd really like to hear about the pro's, cons & procedures too


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## manticle (10/3/14)

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.


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## Bridges (10/3/14)

Slightly different but I plan long term to use my stainless fermenter as a cube, with silicone bung and a filter
_"0.2 Micron Air Filter __These 0.2 Micron Air Filters will filter out microbes and bacteria. They can be used in many different ways. They can be used with our wort aerator pumps (above) so you can aerate your wort, or can be used as an airlock in the top of your fermenter. They can also be used to filter air going back into a cask when dispensing real ale."_

I can't do it yet as my ferm fridge is too small so it won't fit, soon I will be upgrading so plan to go something like, make wort put into fermenter leave in place on shed floor all sealed up (with filter) until cool enough to handle safely then put into ferm fridge until wort hits pitching temp pitch and off we go.

I'm interested in no chill in a keg too though and would like to hear more about this process as at this stage I'm still getting my head around how I want to do things.


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## Stimsoni (10/3/14)

I like the idea even if it's just being used to cool the wort in a enclosed container. When trying to cool in the pot as i'm doing now i've alway got a thought in the back of my mind 'I wonder if anything is going to get in'

You could also attached a tube to the end of the liquid pickup (may need to shorten it) and attach an air stone to aerate in there before transferring to the FV.


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## mckenry (10/3/14)

It's something I have been thinking about for a while, but dismissed in the end because of the amount of trub and the amount of head space required. I reckoned I'd only get about 13.5L of beer out if each corny. I'm thinking about trying to get 38L out if a 50L keg. That should be doable, but bloody heavy to move in and out of a ferment fridge if I don't get it set up right.


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## MaltyHops (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.


What about rigging up some kind of reverse airlock - connect the keg to the top of a bottle 2/3 filled with sanitiser solution, put an aquarium airstone at the bottom of the bottle with a hose connected to the airstone open to the outside. This way the air coming in can hopefully be turned into very fine bubbles and any particles in the air get filtered by the sanitiser on the way up.


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## r055c0 (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.


Would the risk be air being sucked in as the wort cools and contracts? I'm guessing the corny keg is designed to hold pressure in, not keep it out so if the pressure in the keg is below the pressure outside it would suck air through the gas in post, the liquid out post and the pressure release valve. You might be able to avoid this by attaching the keg to your CO2 while it cools?


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## manticle (10/3/14)

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

R055c0 - I'm presuming the co2 in the headspace should be enough.


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

Tickleman, calculate shrinkage from cooling. That's the volume you need to replace. So, you have the headspace at time of filling x pressure applied = volume of headspace at cool x pressure applied (min atmospheric).

Just pressurise enough so that the shrinkage simply depressurises the headspace. Take into account the volumes of gas the cooled wort will absorb (the hot wort is essentially zero dissolved gas). In fact, you could fill the headspace with oxygen and no need to shake the bugger around.


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> @malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
> It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.
> R055c0 - I'm presuming the co2 in the headspace should be enough.


What you are missing is that the cooled wort will absorb an immense amount of gas. The headspace pressure needs to be such that the volume is accounted for.

Edit: work it out and make sure that it won't blow the prv by itself.


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## wobbly (10/3/14)

Why not do a trial run using hot (boiling) water so as to suss out all/any potential issues as far as pressure/vacuum and sealing is concerned

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Florian (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> @malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
> It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.


At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.


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## Florian (10/3/14)

practicalfool said:


> Tickleman, calculate shrinkage from cooling. That's the volume you need to replace. So, you have the headspace at time of filling x pressure applied = volume of headspace at cool x pressure applied (min atmospheric).
> 
> Just pressurise enough so that the shrinkage simply depressurises the headspace. Take into account the volumes of gas the cooled wort will absorb (the hot wort is essentially zero dissolved gas). In fact, *you could fill the headspace with oxygen* and no need to shake the bugger around.


I really like the idea of pressurizing the keg with oxygen to avoid sucking air in and oxygenising at the same time.

If this works and the numbers all add up (and you don't need to leave a ridiculous large headspace to get enough oxygen in the wort or the other way round are wasting too much oxygen as you need to pressurise a big head space), then this would be a pretty cool thing to do.

Probably need a decent O2 tank with a proper reg as opposed to the single use ones to get the correct pressure into the keg.


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

Yea, I was thinking a little further and you can just connect up the gas in (or even the beer in) to the oxy reg with the pressure set just above 1 bar and it would do the calculating for you...


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## MaltyHops (10/3/14)

Florian said:


> > @malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
> > It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.
> 
> 
> ...


Worst case is you might need to straighten out your kegs at some stage  

Actually ... this probably can't happen unless you seal off the keg posts and PRV - I'm assuming they're designed to keep gases in (up to a threashold) but not really to keep external gases at higher pressure from going into keg.



MaltyHops said:


> Hadn't thought about this before but definitely a possibility - atmospheric pressure
> is a very strong force. In an experiment by the ol' Prof Julius Sumner years ago,
> a big steel drum was heated to push out most of the air inside, capped and when
> cooled, atmospheric pressure crushed it like a little aluminium can.


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Florian said:


> At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
> It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
> By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.


You won't offend me at all. This kind of thing (pressure, etc)is not my strong point which is why I'm asking. I know that a cube will suck air in - just wasn't sure that if the keg was sealed and flushed with C02 whether that would still happen.

The idea mentioned above of attaching the disconnects to the posts (beer and gas) - would this prevent this or not?

Feel free to consider me a complete dunce in this regard - I am quite new to kegging and am interested in the viability of this method but am keen to learn from those who have tried it.


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## roger mellie (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Following on from this post:
> 
> 
> can anyone who does this outline their process and things to take into account? Anything not mentioned in the above post?
> ...


Manticle

I did exactly this recently. Primarily because I don't have any plastic cubes.

Sterilised the keg 
Dumped from kettle (through hopback) into Corny - level was just underneath the gas in post
Lid on
Pressurised to ~ 1Bar (just to make sure lid was sealed)
Inverted keg for a few minutes - to make sure hot wort kills anything around the lid

Upped CO2 pressure to 3 BarG and pressurised keg

The next day the pressure in the keg was still positive - I just gave it a squirt of CO2 occasionally (at ~1.5 BarG) - I didn't want the Beer to be carbonated at this stage so was reluctant to leave it hooked up.

Worked a treat - I added to the fermenter through a sterile beer gun and pitched straight away.

I suggest a modified Liquid tube to avoid getting all the trub

Cons

Volume is low - ideally I want to ferment with ~22 L - so would need to use 2 cornys.

I also thought about chucking some hops in while it was still hot - I understand that No Chillers do this.

RM


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## Florian (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> You won't offend me at all. This kind of thing (pressure, etc)is not my strong point which is why I'm asking. I know that a cube will suck air in - just wasn't sure that if the keg was sealed and flushed with C02 whether that would still happen.
> 
> The idea mentioned above of attaching the disconnects to the posts (beer and gas) - would this prevent this or not?
> 
> Feel free to consider me a complete dunce in this regard - I am quite new to kegging and am interested in the viability of this method but am keen to learn from those who have tried it.


Not exactly sure what a dunce is so I won't call you one... I remember the time before I started kegging, it took me a while to get my head around this whole pressure thing as well.

If you just attach disconnects (and nothing else) to the post you will just freely suck air into your keg, as you have pretty much opened the posts by attaching the disconnects.

If you don't attach anything to the posts at all, you will still suck air in through either the posts or the PRV, whichever of the three springs in those is the weakest. _*If *_those springs were really strong you would most likely get dented keg walls, they would be sucked in like the walls of your plastic cube. But as suggested by others this is unlikely, so air will get sucked in instead.

If you now attach only one disconnect to the gas in post, you basically open that post up so air can get in freely to equalise the pressure in the keg with the air pressure outside of the keg. As you don't really want to suck your garage air into the keg, you can attach the sanitary filter via a piece of beer line, so at least the air that get's sucked in is 'clean'.

If you now wanted to store your wort for a longer period once it's cooled I would completely flush the headspace (containing Co2 and 'clean' air) with Co2 so that it only contains Co2.

EDIT: added quote


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Cheers.

I meant disconnects attached to co2 cylinder and ploto gun. Most likely I'll just get meself one a them new fangled air filter things (or presumably two - one for each post?)


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## manticle (10/3/14)

roger mellie said:


> Manticle
> 
> I did exactly this recently. Primarily because I don't have any plastic cubes.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response - so no trouble sucking air in? I don't mind the slightly reduced volume. Even thinking along the lines of what Bribie suggested - one shot with the pluto post fermentation to remove most of the yeast before transferring to another keg for dispensing.

This is the bit that is confusing me Florian. How does the air get sucked in if you have positive pressure in the headspace?


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## surly (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Cheers.
> 
> I meant disconnects attached to co2 cylinder and ploto gun. Most likely I'll just get meself one a them new fangled air filter things (or presumably two - one for each post?)


Attached to CO2 and pluto SHOULD work.
If you attached your CO2 with pressure on (keep it at just above atmosphere), then the CO2 will force its way in when the pressure in the keg drops. You can ignore the liquid post then (or leave pluto attached).

If you were to attach the sanitary air filter, the theory is, there SHOULD be less resistance drawing the air through the filter into the keg than there would be in overcoming the spring loaded seal on the other post. Therefore, only clean air will be drawn in.


If you look at how the posts work, there is a centre piece with a rubber seal on it. This is held in the "sealed" position by a spring. If you increase pressure inside the keg, this centre piece is forced even more firmly against its seat and the seal gets stronger. However, this centre piece can easily be depressed (into the keg) via a finger or disconnect. You only have to overcome the power of the spring. So a vacuum inside the keg (caused by cooling wort) would easily suck air in against the spring.
You need to provide a path of less resistance, hence attaching the gas at just above atmosphere pressure, or the use of a sanitary filter.

Hope this makes sense?


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## Florian (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Thanks for the response - so no trouble sucking air in? I don't mind the slightly reduced volume. Even thinking along the lines of what Bribie suggested - one shot with the pluto post fermentation to remove most of the yeast before transferring to another keg for dispensing.
> 
> This is the bit that is confusing me Florian. How does the air get sucked in if you have positive pressure in the headspace?


Ah, I think this is were the confusion might come from.

I was talking about just purging the head space with Co2, which is just like flushing the air out so to speak. Doesn't necessarily leave pressure in the keg.

You were talking about pressurising the keg, right? If you do that, like PF and RM suggested, then you won't need an air filter or whatever, assuming you put enough pressure in there to equalise the vacuum of the cooling wort.
This is probably the easiest method.

I guess the only concern with that could be that, if you put too much pressure on, that you're basically dissolving Co2 into your wort. Not sure how that could possibly affect fermentation, and I would definitely depressurise the keg while it's still fairly warm (before you pre chill wort to ferment temps) as this is when Co2 is dissolved the hardest and therefore leaves the wort the easiest.

That's why I liked PF's idea of pressurising with O2, as you're getting two birds with one stone if done right.

EDIT: added quote (again). Also, surly is on the money.


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## surly (10/3/14)

Would there be an issue pressurising with O2? We ARE dealing with hot wort after all..

In theory, I think the easiest way would be connecting the CO2 up via a regulator at low pressure. You won't carbonate your wort, it is sanitary and there wouldn't be any concerns about oxygenation (maybe this is just MY concern..).
The drawback would be that you have dedicated that regulator to a low pressure task which might prevent you from serving your other beers..


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Thankyou Surly - that explanation makes sense. Thanks too Florian.

Yes I was talking about pressurising the keg but like I say, my understanding of gas, pressure and displacement is not even rudimentary.

I would have concerns oxygenating hot wort.


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## Florian (10/3/14)

surly said:


> Would there be an issue pressurising with O2? We ARE dealing with hot wort after all..


Do you mean in regards to hot side aeration or safety?



surly said:


> In theory, I think the easiest way would be connecting the CO2 up via a regulator at low pressure. You won't carbonate your wort, it is sanitary and there wouldn't be any concerns about oxygenation (maybe this is just MY concern..).
> The drawback would be that you have dedicated that regulator to a low pressure task which might prevent you from serving your other beers..


Agree, that is probably the most feasible option, provided you can spare that Co2 bottle and reg.

I guess another positive about keg no chilling for the list is that you can easily force oxygenate your wort once it's cooled. Connect O2 tank to cooled corny at high pressure and shake, or leave connected until desired saturation level is reached.


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## surly (10/3/14)

Hey Florian, my concern was for hot side aeration. Hadn't considered safety, though figure you would need a bit more than 100deg C for O2 to be particularly dangerous??


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## manticle (10/3/14)

HSA would be my concern. I know it's not a massive issue on an HB scale and you really have to try hard to create an issue but oxygenating boiling hot wort would surely be pushing the limits.

Just before I go ahead and set myself up for this - no-one can see any way I can blow up myself or my kegs if attach the gas and ploto after filling and sealing the keg? I'd be having a crack at fermenting in the same keg as well - trying with the bleed nozzle raised for C02 release as when I ferment in cubes, I seem to get reduced krausen (presumably because the wort is under more pressure than in a fermenter with glad wrap). I'm hoping the gas bleed nozzle is enough. Can fit more kegs in my fridge than I can cubes.


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## mckenry (10/3/14)

mckenry said:


> It's something I have been thinking about for a while, but dismissed in the end because of the amount of trub and the amount of head space required. I reckoned I'd only get about 13.5L of beer out if each corny. I'm thinking about trying to get 38L out if a 50L keg. That should be doable, but bloody heavy to move in and out of a ferment fridge if I don't get it set up right.


Sorry manticle. My thoughts above werent really what you were getting at (after reading the rest of this thread) I thought after reading Florians post you quoted, that you were going to ferment in the corny as well, as you do with your cubes. Thats why I said what I said.


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Actually you're right - I am considering fermenting in them as well. If you read the thread about fermenting under pressure you'll see Krausen is reduced so headspace is less of a concern. I often fill my cubes right up and get some to no krausen leakage. While I'm not exactly fermenting under pressure, I wonder if the slower release (cap on, slightly turned to loose) affects the krausen in a similar way or whether it's to do with the shape of the vessel or a bit of both.

The yeast/trub could presumably be dealt with with either shortened dip tube (but then I need kegs designated only for that purpose) or simply by removing via beer outpost. Yeast can then be reserved for later use or discarded. Presumably you could dispense from the same keg too but I think I would prefer to transfer at that point.

Probably not a viable option for beers that require big starters as I use identical wort for my starters and add the entire lot when active but for things like my dark mild and UK bitters it might be a goer. I tend to make those more often than dark strongs or doppelbocks.


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## wobbly (10/3/14)

Mantical

I know this is going of topic but seeing you are contemplating fermenting in the same corny after "no chilling" have a read of this thread I previously posted on the Pressure Fermenting topic http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/spunding-valve-commericial-style-diy-333907/ and you will see that they eventually concluded that it wasn't necessary to modify (shorten) the dip tube

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Cheers for that wobbly. Cheers also for the earlier suggestion on a hot water run.


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## MHB (10/3/14)

Just a couple of points that spring to mind
There are kegs other than 5 US Gallon Cornes, there are lots of the old Australian 23L (5 Imp Gal) kegs kicking around, here are a couple on eBay, should make for much better batch sizes.
PRV's cant leak gas in, well unless they are stuffed, they are basically a one way valve with a spring holding them down.
I to would be very concerned about O2 ingress, not just HSA but if you are no-chilling in the keg - plain straight old fashioned oxidisation - the beer wont be better for exposure to oxygen for any length of time.
Both poppets can let air in as vacuum forms, for air to travel in through the liquid the vacuum would have to be the same as the wet height of the dip-tube and the density of the wort according to P=ρgh (ρ being density, g gravity, h height). Just on my fingers about -6 to -7 kPa (about -1 psi for the luddites) so more than doable if the gas poppet was a bit sticky.
I think the perfect solution would be a CO2 and cask aspirator, it just lets in a vacuum relieving amount gas.

I have a friend who was doing this, brewing here in Newcastle, putting the wort into a 45L keg (the old Australian type with a hatch and poppets like a corny), pressurising with CO2 as the wort cooled, then fitting a HEPA filter to the gas post for the drive over the range to Tamworth,
The beer was never as good as that which was taken home in cubes, we put it down to oxidisation from air getting in and out from the altitude change, he has gone back to using cubes.

Mark


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Thanks Mark.

I would be pitching as soon as the wort is cool. I don't tend to store wort in cubes for much more than one or two days and this would be no different. However one of the main attractions is reducing oxidation so hopefully it doesn't have the opposite effect.

If I block the gas post with the co2 disconnect and the beer with my black disconnect connected to pluto overnight, then pitch the next day would I hopefully be avoiding the issues your friend had?

I hope to give this a go next weekend if I can nut this out correctly


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## MHB (10/3/14)

I strongly suspect that if you don't do something to relieve the vacuum it will suck air in, if you have everything else blocked then it *will* suck it in around the hatch O-Ring. Remember kegs are designed to hold pressure not vacuum.
mark


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## mb-squared (10/3/14)

I read through all the comments on this post and couldn't help but ask why you don't just chill the wort before dumping it into the keg? Is there an advantage (that I'm clearly missing) to not chilling your wort?


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## TheWiggman (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> The yeast/trub could presumably be dealt with with either shortened dip tube (but then I need kegs designated only for that purpose)


If you have a spare dip tube around, why not just shorten it and fit it when needed? Only involves removing the liquid post then re-fitting.


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## breakbeer (10/3/14)

mb-squared said:


> I read through all the comments on this post and couldn't help but ask why you don't just chill the wort before dumping it into the keg? Is there an advantage (that I'm clearly missing) to not chilling your wort?


Not everyone has a chiller


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## surly (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Thanks Mark.
> 
> I would be pitching as soon as the wort is cool. I don't tend to store wort in cubes for much more than one or two days and this would be no different. However one of the main attractions is reducing oxidation so hopefully it doesn't have the opposite effect.
> 
> ...


Just attaching the Pluto and gas post won't stop it drawing air, you will need to add SOME pressure.
Either continuously add a small amount, or add enough pressure initially that the keg will remain slightly higher than the atmosphere once wort has cooled.

mb, not sure what Manticles reasons are, but I don't chill as I hate the waste of water and don't want to clean more stuff.
Also, is very convenient to pitch when time allows. Makes for a shorter brew day.


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Sorry I'm not being clear.

I would add some co2 first for sure. Then attach the gas and beer connects.

MB: There are a multitude of reasons for not chilling. Whether I no chill in cubes or no chill in a corny, those reasons remain the same.

The three main advantages for me are using far less water, not needing to set up extra equipment and being able to use the same wort for my starters when required.

It's been the subject of many a discussion so no real need to go into it here.


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## manticle (10/3/14)

TheWiggman said:


> If you have a spare dip tube around, why not just shorten it and fit it when needed? Only involves removing the liquid post then re-fitting.


Because I often ferment more than one beer at once. I'm not sure there's any need to work with a shortened tube at all though.


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

Actually, after working all the rest of the muscles (besides the ones under the skull), a few thighs dawned on me:

1) HOT O2 in contact with hot wort, not great for the wort or the keg. I wonder how keg seals would cope with that.
Solutions:
1-1. Don't pressurise much above 1 bar. Lower the pressure, the better for the equipment.
1-2. Figure out the contraction rate of the liquid, let's say we are doing 18L in a 19L keg, that means 1L of headspace that is allowed to get rarified. At what temperature of wort is the contraction going to be enough to buckle the keg. Start the oxygen pressure at just above this temperature, basically the lower it is he better for the wort.
1-3. Replace all seals on the keg with better materials. I was thinking the silicone seals sold by home brew shops + silicone o-rings for the other seals too but I hear silicone seeps oxygen like a leaky whore. Might have to consider alternative materials - neoprene?!

2) risk of explosion or catching fire due to the hot oxygen problem.
Solutions:
2-1. Don't do this inside the house.
2-2. Use a nrv on the oxygen line.
2-3. Use sufficient length of line to give physical separation between the oxy cylinder and keg. In fact, I'd suggest dropping the nrv into a tub of water just to make sure the hot air doesn't destroy it and also to create a temperature gap between both sides of the oxygen circuit.

One thing that pops into mind straight away is that this would be an awesome method of chilling, oxygenating and fermenting for those that have the ability to drop the keg into a pool or something for a quick chill and subsequent ferment.
Thinking further, if a 50L keg were used, you could weld in or use bulkheads to drop in a coil into the keg and run cooling through the coil while oxygenating at the same time. Could then later use the same coil to control ferment temp. Heck, use an upside down 50L keg and attach a sediment bottle WW style and you basically have a conical-ish vessel with temp control, oxygenating easy and chilling all in one.

OK, I'll stop before the brain muscles hurt.


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## roger mellie (10/3/14)

MHB said:


> I strongly suspect that if you don't do something to relieve the vacuum it will suck air in, if you have everything else blocked then it *will* suck it in around the hatch O-Ring. Remember kegs are designed to hold pressure not vacuum.
> mark


Mark

The only way that Air can be sucked in to the keg is if the difference in pressure between inside the keg and outside the keg is negative. Given that we are adding 3 Bar of CO2 to the headspace when the wort is hot and a squirt more occasionally - I don't see that anything will ingress through the seals/poppets as long as you keep the pressure inside the keg positive (greater than 0 barG). 

RM


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## surly (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Sorry I'm not being clear.
> 
> I would add some co2 first for sure. Then attach the gas and beer connects.


I DID think that's what you meant, but I felt the need to be sure


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## manticle (10/3/14)

If there's no way I can blow myself sky high or cave in my kegs doing the following, I will try next weekend. i know enough about beer and my palate to know if it doesn't taste right but next to bugger all about gas and pressure so I want to be safe.

1. Run hot wort into sanitised keg.
2. Seal lid
3. Add small amount of CO2. Leave gas disconnect on
4. Put beer disconnect with ploto on
5. Possibly add more CO2 as it cools.
6. When cool, release pressure, remove lid, add yeast, shake keg. Reseal, unlock pressure valve for co2 release

If it works I will look at improving the process by getting an O2 cylinder for proper oxygenation and a spunding valve to actually ferment under pressure and possibly even retain some natural carbonation in the finished beer.

If it doesn't work, I might try the sterile filter and if that doesn't work, I'll stick to cubing.


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

Looks alright.

My only worry about using co2 from the start is that as it cools the wort will absorb it. That is going to be hard to displace. Your normal oxygenation - shaking won't be as effective. Allow for that, perhaps a bigger starter. Else just get a sanitary air filter.


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## roger mellie (10/3/14)

practicalfool said:


> Looks alright.
> 
> My only worry about using co2 from the start is that as it cools the wort will absorb it. That is going to be hard to displace. Your normal oxygenation - shaking won't be as effective. Allow for that, perhaps a bigger starter. Else just get a sanitary air filter.


I worried about this as well PF - when I did my one and only 'No Chill in a Corny' - dumped into a Williams Warn fermenter - No oxygenation - with S-04 - it was all over inside 2 days.

I assume from that that the volume of CO2 absorbed is minute - or that Dried Yeast doenst care if the wort is anaerobic.

RM


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## hotmelt (10/3/14)

What about joining the liquid and gas disconnects to a JG tee,then from the tee to a one way valve then to co2.The pressure keeps the valve closed and as it cools the co2 is drawn in


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## Florian (10/3/14)

Manticle, on your latest list I would add a purging step between point 2 and 3 to remove all air from the corny, same as you would with a cube to minimise infection risk.

seal corny, attach co2 at anywhere between 1 and 3 bar or so, detach disconnect from gas post, pull relieve valve, and repeat 3 or 4 times.
while pitching yeast you obviously then have to replace the co2 in the head space with air or oxygen to get at least some oxygen in your wort when shaking the keg.


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Cool.

I think I have enough info to at least give this a go.

If people are interested I will report back on my experience. I think there is merit in the idea so if we can collectively nut out both potential and actual issues and solutions, I reckon more people might give this a go, especially those who don't mind smaller batches.

BTW - I don't pretend to have invented the idea - just unsure why more people don't do it. $40 stainless fermenters.


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## mb-squared (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> The three main advantages for me are using far less water, not needing to set up extra equipment and being able to use the same wort for my starters when required.
> 
> It's been the subject of many a discussion so no real need to go into it here.


Hi manticle, I don't want to de-rail what looks like a very productive exchange but this "no chill" method just caught me by surprise. I understand your first two advantages, but it seems to me you could use chilled wort just as easily as no-chilled wort for subsequent starters. 

Since I am such a dolt and not aware of the "many a discussion" on the topic, can you point me in the right direction? I am most interested in how you deal with DMS in your no-chill beer because everything I've read says to get that boiling wort chilled as fast as possible. For example, this is what I've been taught:

The DMS produced during the hot wort stand will stay in solution even if the hot wort tank is vented. For every extra hour of hot wort stand, a DMS increase of approximately 30% will result (original source).

I'm not saying that is gospel, it is just what I've been taught. I'd be most interested to hear why you aren't concerned about this.


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

roger mellie said:


> I worried about this as well PF - when I did my one and only 'No Chill in a Corny' - dumped into a Williams Warn fermenter - No oxygenation - with S-04 - it was all over inside 2 days.
> 
> I assume from that that the volume of CO2 absorbed is minute - or that Dried Yeast doenst care if the wort is anaerobic.
> 
> RM


OK, it might be that the dry yeast actually has more yeast in it than liquid especially handled well. Might explain that. But I have been contemplating my first brew in a while but don't have fridges on hand. I'll get a belle saison done and try all this as I have the co2 etc all at hand anyway. Will report back once I get this started.



manticle said:


> Cool.
> 
> I think I have enough info to at least give this a go.
> 
> ...


Yep, would love to hear. Some yeast health issues with variations would be great to nut out too! Btw, $40?!?! Where!!!


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## manticle (10/3/14)

mb-squared said:


> Hi manticle, I don't want to de-rail what looks like a very productive exchange but this "no chill" method just caught me by surprise. I understand your first two advantages, but it seems to me you could use chilled wort just as easily as no-chilled wort for subsequent starters.
> 
> Since I am such a dolt and not aware of the "many a discussion" on the topic, can you point me in the right direction? I am most interested in how you deal with DMS in your no-chill beer because everything I've read says to get that boiling wort chilled as fast as possible. For example, this is what I've been taught:
> 
> ...


I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.
Many homebrewers use this alternative.

DMS has not been an issue in the 4 odd years I've been employing it. Possibly a combination between modern modified 2 row barley, 90 minute standard boil and wort standing for 40 odd minutes before being cubed.
Start here for an explanation of the method:http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/23742-ahb-wiki-the-no-chiller-method-using-a-cube/

As for identical wort for my starters - I run off the last bit from the kettle, let the trub settle out then reboil and cool. My starter is then made using this wort - no chilled wort when properly packed can sit without yeast for a long time so the yeast is pitched when it's ready.
Happy to discuss further either by pm or in the linked thread but it works.
There are things that need thinking about or adjusting but it works.
Pretty much a tried and tested method by many brewers and many state and national comps have been won with no chilled beers.


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Pf - I've not paid more than 50 for any of my kegs but have picked up a few for 40 second hand.


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## Bridges (10/3/14)

Please soldier on and do this Manticle. I'm really keen to hear how it goes.


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## MHB (10/3/14)

mb-squared said:


> Hi manticle, I don't want to de-rail what looks like a very productive exchange but this "no chill" method just caught me by surprise. I understand your first two advantages, but it seems to me you could use chilled wort just as easily as no-chilled wort for subsequent starters.
> 
> Since I am such a dolt and not aware of the "many a discussion" on the topic, can you point me in the right direction? I am most interested in how you deal with DMS in your no-chill beer because everything I've read says to get that boiling wort chilled as fast as possible. For example, this is what I've been taught:
> 
> ...


mb-squared I'm not manticle - he is much more patient than me (probably types a lot faster to) and might spend a couple of hours answering your question, and its a very reasonable question, just extremely provocative.
Please don't take offence, I know its no longer fashionable to tell new members to go and do a search, but in this case, considering the size of the can of worms you are opening some one might be forgiven, up the top right in the search area put in chill v nochill - that got me 89 results as topics or threads, without trying variations on the spelling of nochill, no-chill, no chill and adding ing's on the end.

1/ every fresh wort pack sold is made this way, and lots of them get sold
2/ lots of people here do it without problems (including me)
3/ just because some American thinks it doesn't mean its right or applies everywhere
4/ have a look in the wiki topics (4th one down) Ahb Wiki: The No-chiller Method / Using A Cube
5/ plan on having a very late night
Mark


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## Rambo (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Put beer disconnect with ploto


Why are you attaching the Pluto at this stage Manticle? Could this not just be added after fermentation to remove the trub?


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## manticle (10/3/14)

Seems to be a consensus that the gas and beer posts could suck air in as the wort cools. Basically just blocking the avenue.


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## Rambo (10/3/14)

Ah I see, cheers. Thinking ill give this a go over the weekend too. Though will put slight positive pressure of co2 while it cools.


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## mb-squared (10/3/14)

MHB said:


> mb-squared I'm not manticle - he is much more patient than me (probably types a lot faster to) and might spend a couple of hours answering your question, and its a very reasonable question, just extremely provocative.
> Please don't take offence, I know its no longer fashionable to tell new members to go and do a search, but in this case, considering the size of the can of worms you are opening some one might be forgiven, up the top right in the search area put in chill v nochill - that got me 89 results as topics or threads, without trying variations on the spelling of nochill, no-chill, no chill and adding ing's on the end.
> 1/ every fresh wort pack sold is made this way, and lots of them get sold
> 2/ lots of people here do it without problems (including me)
> ...


feeling properly schooled. thanks for being gentle. I've learned how to brew by reading books and I never came across the no-chill method where one pours boiling hot wort into a plastic container. But I now see lots of people do it and are very happy with their results. So, learn something new all the time.

Cheers,

Matto


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## surly (10/3/14)

manticle said:


> Seems to be a consensus that the gas and beer posts could suck air in as the wort cools. Basically just blocking the avenue.


Sorry to further re-hash this, but..
As I have never used a pluto gun, or seen how one works, I may be incorrect, but will this actually stop air getting sucked in the out post via the vacuum effect of cooling wort?
I would have assumed the gun would seal in the same manner as the post, therefore, all you have REALLY done is increased the length of the post??

All this is moot if the keg is maintained under greater than atmosphere pressure, which you have already stated as your intention.


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## simplefisherman (10/3/14)

If you are breaking the vacuum through the gas in post then you wont suck air in through the liquid out post, and even if you did it would still suck past the pluto gun seal which is also designed to hold pressure not suction... so wont do any harm but probably wont help much either. That's my take on it anyways, otherwise very interested in your results.
A certain 3- letter- acronymed retailer gave me a tip which may prove useful for excluding trub, havent tried it but sounds good; find a stainless thimble and put it under the bottom of the dip tube when assembling the keg. Then you don't suck as much trub out, only as much as in the thimble... something to think about.


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## Florian (11/3/14)

OK, I have just done this, sort of.

I haven't brewed since May last year except for a single batch in August for a barrel project, but I still had a cube sitting in the fridge that had accidentally been frozen for the last 10 month. 
This cube needed reboiling because it originally had split at the top when filling (and hence ended up in the fridge) but also because it contained only IPA base wort hopped to 20 IBU.

Usually I would reboil this cube, no chill again and once cool do a 3 or so litre boil to add all the hops from 30 minutes downwards. As I couldn't be bothered doing two boils though I decided to combine the bug and hop boil and fast chill the keg in the pool.

Ended up like this:





Will pitch a rehydrated pack each of US05 and BRY97 tomorrow once it's cooled and oxygenated. Was originally planning on adding the spunding valve straight away, but I'm a bit worried about it being flooded with yeast, so I might attach a blow off via a disconnect first and replace with the spunding valve after a few days.


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## MaltyHops (11/3/14)

Great, now we all need to get a pool for chilling our wort! :angry:


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## pk.sax (11/3/14)

Should I post that again?

Although, I do live close-ish to the beach now...


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## Rambo (11/3/14)

Doing a trial run with water. No pool unfortunately, though thought I better put it in the bath in case it does leak somehow. Using my soda stream gas bottle and an old reg.


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## manticle (11/3/14)

ESB this saturday. Looks like I'm behind.


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## Rambo (11/3/14)

Plenty of time to build a pool.


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## manticle (11/3/14)

Laying bricks as we speak. It was raining here today too so I have a head start.


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## Florian (12/3/14)

Chilling was over and done with in a hour or so thanks to the fairly large surface area compared to a cube and stainless steel being a better heat conductor than plastic.
No chilling would be obviously the same concept minus the pool, so safe your bricks for a brew stand or something.

Chilled the keg further down to pitching temps over night and discovered a bottle of antifoam (fermcap-S) that I had long forgotten about. Seeing the wort level was fairly high in the corny and I really wanted to attach the spunding valve from the start I considered this a worthwhile addition.

Pulled out the old oxygenation wand which is just about perfect for cornies.




As I wanted to dry hop this beer, but felt that opening the vessel half way through would somehow counteract the whole idea of not oxygenising the beer during transfers etc, and also being worried that the hops would clog up the poppet in the beer out post (had that happen before), I came up with this dry hop fandangle:










The idea is that the hops sits just above wort level during fermentation, then, when ready to dry hop, I pull the PRV a little so the hops get pulled into the beer by the weight of the spoons and just float a little above the bottom of the keg. When finished dry hopping I can either pull the hops out of the beer again or just leave them down there and transfer the beer of the hops to the serving keg.


Here's the whole thing ready to go into the fridge:


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## manticle (12/3/14)

Great to see florian.


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## Rambo (12/3/14)

I found in my trial run that the keg took a lot longer to cool than a cube. Presumably because it was insulated from the floor, which draws a lot of the heat away.


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## manticle (16/3/14)

Part 1 just done (no chill in keg). I'll probably transfer this lot and aim for fermenting in keg at a later point.

At the moment I have just left the gas connected at 100 kpa. Will see if pressure remains tomorrow. I believe it should.


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## Florian (16/3/14)

I would dial that pressure right down, otherwise your wort will be carbonated if you leave it too long.

You only need the tiniest amount of pressure, so that when the wort volume shrinks it can be easily displaced without pulling together those poppet springs. I had mine at 10 or so kPa.


I have once seen something that I found 'weird' which makes me a bit cautious with wort and Co2:
I had a 25L no chill cube, but only about 18L of wort, so the difference was too much to just squeeze the sides to push all the air out. I decided to just fill the cube and completely displace the head space with Co2, then pulled the lid tight.

The next morning all of the Co2 had been absorbed by the wort, there was literally no head space at all left in the wort and the cube was just a shrunken weird looking thing. I expected the walls to be pulled in a little by the cooling wort, with the volume of head space remaining the same, but instead the head space had disappeared completely.

Anyway, that's one of the reasons I wouldn't put the pressure on the reg too high, as it seems like the wort could 'eat' more Co2 than you would like too.


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## Rambo (16/3/14)

Geez, thats a bit of a concern cause I was hoping to leave my wort in the keg for about a week while I wait for space in my fermenting fridge (once cooled I will disconnect the gas). There didn't seem to be any CO2 absorbed into the water in my trial run this week, hoping it's the same with my wort.

Edit: Gas pressure was really low, about 10kpa.


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## manticle (16/3/14)

Will drop when I get home. Based my numbers on roger mellie's experience. If carbing a cold keg 100 kpa does very little overnight though.


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## Florian (16/3/14)

yeah, not overnight. still not necessary.

Rambo, I wouldn't stress about it, have no idea why it happened and have never seen it again (but haven't replicated the situation either), but somehow thought it had to do with the wort being hot and all. Maybe one day I'll replicate it to see that I wasn't dreaming.


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## Rambo (16/3/14)

No stress, just slightly concerned. I'm sure I'll soon find out if its an issue. 

Thanks for the heads up though!


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## manticle (16/3/14)

Part of what I'm doing is to suck it and see so if things go tits up, I will know and can write from experience. I could hypothesise till kingdom come but only one way to really find out.


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## manticle (17/3/14)

Ok - so I toned down the pressure when I got back from a futsal game last night. This morning the pressure seemed to have dropped to zero so I bumped it back up. Should have just left it so I would know what was going on one way or the other.

Anyway I kegged two cubes of mild this evening so I had plenty of 1469 slurry for the 1060 ESB in the NC keg. Removed around 2/3 slurry from one cube and used co2 to push the ESB wort into the cube, via pluto gun, occasionally shutting it off most of the way to force out froth for oxygentaion. Took a sample straight from the pluto into hydrometer tube - basically no noticeable carbonation in the wort and wort tasted like wort should.

No buckling in the keg. To be honest I would have been very surprised if there was but I also would have been very upset if there was.

Not conclusive but definitely enough to try again next weekend and leave the carb pressure as is. Can adjust up or down the next time if needed but just need to reduce variables where I can so I can get a consistent method. Looking forward to fermenting in the same vessel but I really want to get an oxygen tank first.


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## Florian (18/3/14)

manticle said:


> Ok - so I toned down the pressure when I got back from a futsal game last night. This morning the pressure seemed to have dropped to zero so I bumped it back up. Should have just left it so I would know what was going on one way or the other.


Funny that (well, not really), I had already half typed a disclaimer into my previous post, sort of saying 'make sure when you dial that pressure down that the reg doesn't turn itself all the way down, they behave funny sometimes', but then didn't really know how to word it properly at the time without upsetting the 'a reg is a precision instrument, it shouldn't just turn down to zero' crew, so I ended up scrapping it.

Doomed if you do and doomed if you don't, I might just shut up again and get back into my hole.

On that note, I'm planning a mini experiment on Thursday trying to replicate that 'wort swallows Co2' scenario and some control samples, all in PET bottles.

Also, if you ever have a buckling keg, I wouldn't worry too much, nothing you couldn't fix up with a hammer or some sort of suction device. yes, your keg might not look as pretty afterwards but would still hold almost the same volume.


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## manticle (18/3/14)

This is where we nut out potential problems, distinguish them from real problems and work out real solutions where applicable so stay out of your hole for now and keep no chilling in your keg.

Unless the hole is warm. Is it warm?


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## Florian (18/3/14)

Well, I found one potential problem (real or not, you distinguish yourself) when I stuck my oxygenation wand all the way down into the keg:

There was a substantial amount of solid matter, kind of felt like when you kayak in shallow waters and dig your paddle into that softish mud stuff where all those crabs and creatures live.

Now, admittedly I had 200g of hop matter from that pseudo L'argonaise boil in there, so that might have been a, if not the, contributing factor which can be easily eliminated by doing 'normal' boils with decent whirlpools, but I'm still curious how the bottom of the keg feels when I stick my wand into one of those 'normal' worts.


And no, the hole is cold, I only get access to the warm hole for short periods, several times per week, if you really must know.


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## manticle (18/3/14)

This is you fermenting in the no chill vessel yes?

I would presume hop trub + cold break. No different to when I ferment directly in my NC cubes. Advantage of a keg is that you could punch that snot out with one shot of a pluto and some co2 before oxygenating if you thought it could pose a problem. Never has in my cubes though.


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## Florian (18/3/14)

Yep, that's what I should have done, was just too worried that the hop crap would block the poppet in the out post, as I said, happened to me before, so I decided to postpone the problem to a time when I have finished beer at stake, rather than just wort. :unsure:

It wouldn't cause a problem in a cube as your pick up (tap) is usually well above the solid crap.

As you say, nutting out problems, this would clearly work well for lagers or any other beer lacking late hops, or else cut that dip tube to a level where it sits above the solid stuff. 
But same as you I wasn't ready for that step yet, time will tell If I have to or not.


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## manticle (18/3/14)

Otherwise a little hop screen or filter attached to the dip tube? Could block very easily depending on design but if you could somehow make it wide enough - kind of like a reverse false bottom?

Just musing (and I'm starting to overcomplicate which is the opposite motivation behind the thread) - might be easier to hop screen in the kettle or bag in the argon vessel but there must be ways and means. Cold break would be no issue.

I guess try the gun next time - if it blocks or the poppet gets too gunky, there'll be another idea.


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## Florian (18/3/14)

If the gun blocks I'll just add more pressure and pray that the whole thing doesn't blow up (although I'm sure that some might love a bit of hops splattered all over their face).
Alternative is to remove the poppet from the post while clearing out the gunk from the keg, and in case the gun blocks as well, just use a naked line. Well, that's actually the safest way to do it.

See, sometimes overcomplicating things isn't such a bad thing. Proper pre thinking prevents you from doing stupid things on a whim, like opening up the keg and ladleing out the hop soup with an unsanitised spoon.

All that aside, my current run is an exception anyway, usually I would either effortlessly leave all hot break and hops behind in the kettle if I no chill, or immersion chill my heavily hopped beers and transfer straight to the fermenting vessel.

same as you I'm not concerned about cold break as it's fairly jelly-ish anyway and not prone to blocking anything up.


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## pk.sax (24/3/14)

Well, I'm fermenting a saison in it since Sunday when I pitched about 24 hours post no chilling into it.

A word of caution, fermenting under pressure, releasing the pressure will cause a foam explosion to hit you in the face. You've been warned. Like I wasn't.

I miss seeing the beer do it's thing though.


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## Florian (24/3/14)

Yep, I realised that too, multiple times, even.

I did my little 'wort eats Co2' experiment and will post results a bit later tonight.


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## manticle (24/3/14)

I will be fermenting in mine once my starter gets going. Put the gas on 50 kpa for a few hours on Saturday, turned it off, no tap etc on the beer out and it's maintained the 50. Presumably it would only start absorbing into the solution at much colder temperatures and if there was zero headspace in the keg. I am not super savvy with gas as I've mentioned but I am presuming that if there is headspace the gas will always come out of solution to equilibrate? Thus no chance of the poppets sucking anything in as they cool if you have gas in there.

Brew was no chilled on Saturday, has stayed at the same pressure the whole time.


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## Florian (24/3/14)

Florian said:


> I have once seen something that I found 'weird' which makes me a bit cautious with wort and Co2:
> I had a 25L no chill cube, but only about 18L of wort, so the difference was too much to just squeeze the sides to push all the air out. I decided to just fill the cube and completely displace the head space with Co2, then pulled the lid tight.
> 
> The next morning all of the Co2 had been absorbed by the wort, there was literally no head space at all left in the wort and the cube was just a shrunken weird looking thing. I expected the walls to be pulled in a little by the cooling wort, with the volume of head space remaining the same, but instead the head space had disappeared completely.
> ...


OK, so following up on that I filled 4 sprite bottles (acting as no chill cubes), two with water that had finished boiling one minute ago, and two with wort, again one minute after flame out.
The wort actually consisted of 2.5l of water and 220g of brown sugar, boiled for about 20 minutes with half a handful of Amarillo thrown in at the start of boil.

I filled all bottles with about 780ml of liquid, one wort and one water bottle I just closed the lid very tightly immediately (water+Air and Wort+Air), on the other two bottles I flushed the headspace for about 10 seconds each with Co2 at 80 kPa (Water+Co2 and Wort+Co2) and then closed the lid.

This is what the bottles looked like straight after filling (click on pic to supersize):






And this is what they look like about 30 hours later:





As you can see the head space in the Co2 flushed bottles is significantly smaller than in the ones with air in the head space, meaning that some of that Co2 would have been absorbed by the wort or water. Even more so when you consider that the wort+Co2 one was filled a little less originally than the wort+air one. If I had filled both to the exact level the difference would be even more visible.

Take from that what you want, all I'm saying is that the wort does seem to absorb Co2 in the cooling process. If it's a matter of 'the more Co2 you give (higher pressure setting on reg) the more it will absorb' I don't know, that would involve another fairly simple experiment (two cornies with same amount of hot water or wort and two Co bottles attached to the gas in, one with low reg setting and one with high setting. Weigh Co2 bottle before and after the cornies have cooled to determine how much Co2 has been absorbed).

I might actually do that just out of curiosity unless someone smart comes along and tells us if and why this happens.

Sorry Manticle, i hope this isn't taking your thread too far off topic, was thinking of starting a new thread but thought it sort of belonged in here. Feel free to split if off though, or even better tell me and I'll do it and add a preface to it.


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## manticle (24/3/14)

I think it's perfectly relevant here.


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## manticle (24/3/14)

Be interested if the wort has any detectable fizz.


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## Florian (24/3/14)

Good point, have chucked both Co2 samples in the fridge, will check later. Although i suspect that it might not be enough.
I'm more interested though if the dissolved Co2 might have any impact, good or bad, on fermentation. I know yeast obviously produces Co2 but this is not dissolved in the wort from the start.


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## TheWiggman (24/3/14)

Awesome post Florian, if nothing else it serves to show that using CO2 will post a significant hazard if not managed correctly. That hazard being the destruction of perfectly usable kegs.


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## manticle (24/3/14)

My kegs have held shape fine the two times I've done this. Kegs are very different to PET bottles though.


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## Florian (24/3/14)

TheWiggman said:


> Awesome post Florian, if nothing else it serves to show that using CO2 will post a significant hazard if not managed correctly. That hazard being the destruction of perfectly usable kegs.


I guess if you only flush the headspace once and then disconnect the gas this could in theory happen (someone volunteer to host that experiment?), although so far it seemed the consensus between us few that it's best to keep the gas connected at some sort of pressure, or at the very least pressurise the keg to a certain level before disconnecting the gas.

As I said I'd be interested on the effects this might have to the wort, yeast and fermentation.


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## pk.sax (24/3/14)

Well, considering how finicky saison yeast is, I'll keep an eye on the ferment (through the opaque keg) and report if I can tell if the dissolved co2 is doing any harm to speed of ferment etc. The fridge is sitting at 22C all by itself, I had meant to tell the stalling of ferment by releasing the CO2 a few times a day and when it stops getting pressurised if know the ferment is stalled/done. Witherspoon the wort showers, I'm less keen to keep doing that. Would have to figure it out somehow. Maybe hook up the gas and see the pressure in the gauge rise without turning on the reg. won't work though because of the nrv .... Need some other solution of telling is fermenting is done.

CO2 is basically C++++ and O-- O-- somewhat polar molecules. That is why it dissolves in water better than just air, even at lower pressures it'd give you a fizz while nitrogen etc have to be dissolved at far higher pressures due to the absence of polar charges. Ionic substances have best solubility, followed by polar charge carrying covalent molecules.


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## Florian (24/3/14)

That sort of seems like a sensible explanation, even though I admit that I don't understand it 100%. But it sounds like there would be a limit to solubility, so not a case of the more you gibe etc.?

As for telling when ferment is finished, I just attach a gas disconnect to the gas in post and hold a longish plastic container (just use a bucket or whatever you have on hand) right in front of it to catch the spray, let it settle and transfer to hydrometer tube.

Mine's still at 1.032 after 12 days, but it started at 1.082 so I give it a bit more time.

To be honest, I'm not 100% sure if I will pursue the cornie fermenting thing or not, but definitely will be no chilling in kegs from now on. If I acquire a ss fermenter I might just no chill in that if doing a single batch, but will no chill in cornies if wanting to store the wort for longer because I'm brewing multiple batches on a weekend, which will be the norm from now on.


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## pk.sax (25/3/14)

Yeah, I've never been fully sold on the no-chill for hoppy beers though. For the rate of effort and changing process involved I tend to only do it for the wheat beers and like. The thing I hated about cubes was storage space and the stink they build from long disuse. Corny, no wukkin furries. Nappi-San + kettle water + lid on and shake shake sit and release and wash and starsan, job done every time on the mankiest keg unless there's congealed syrup (some of my first gumtree kegs had that issue). Cubes, well, if I can't see the spot how do I know it's got it + plastic harbouring bacteria...


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## manticle (25/3/14)

Well a follow up on the gas thing. Didn't drop from 50 at any point since Saturday night.

Pulled the release valve tonight then shook the crap out of the keg to oxygenate as I would normally do with a cube. I plan on getting an O2 tank but shaking will have to do for now. Pulled the release valve again and would presume if any significant CO2 had gone into solution, that some would come out (and wort with it - likely in my face).

Nothing. Just like a cube only skinny and stainless. Added in my active starter, turned the release valve so it's pulled out - will see how it goes. Too much leakage and I'll sort a blow-off tube but I'm hoping I won't have to.


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## Florian (25/3/14)

The thing is though that there wouldn't be much oxygen in the keg to oxygenate your wort, as you had flushed the head space with Co2 and also applied Co2 at pressure (that's what you did, right?). In that case you can shake it around as much as you like, but all you do is shaking the Co2 around.

Dependant on the yeast you're using and your desired outcome that could be good or bad. If you're concerned you could always open the lid and 'blow' some air in there and then repeat the shaking.


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## Florian (25/3/14)

Also, instead of opening the release valve you could just attach a gas disconnect to the gas in post. That way, if your yeast rises too much, it just drips down the side of the keg, rather than all over the top. You could go all fancy and attach a tube to the disconnect and put it in a bucket with clean water, that way you're basically top cropping and have the yeast contained under water.

I know that's not what you want to do right now but it might give others some ideas.

I've completely nutted out my perfect process today, will post pics once I have all the gear together, which should be in about two weeks.


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## manticle (25/3/14)

Florian said:


> The thing is though that there wouldn't be much oxygen in the keg to oxygenate your wort, as you had flushed the head space with Co2 and also applied Co2 at pressure (that's what you did, right?). In that case you can shake it around as much as you like, but all you do is shaking the Co2 around.Dependant on the yeast you're using and your desired outcome that could be good or bad. If you're concerned you could always open the lid and 'blow' some air in there and then repeat the shaking.


released the co2 first, shook, removed lid, added yeast, returned lid, shook again. As I do with my cubes- I will be shaking intermittently till visible fermentation begins.
Not ideal but will have to do till I get O2 tank.


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## pk.sax (25/3/14)

I like the top cropping idea. I've basically been releasing the pressure twice daily until the krausen starts wanting to come out. Then I stop - figuring I've dropped the pressure enough to let the subdued krausen rise to the top. Not like there was too much headspace anyway.

Btw, I cheated with the aeration. Wort was a bit over gravity so I topped with cold water in a spray from the hose. That should've introduced some oxygen. Temperature didn't drop much and I lidded and closed and applied co2 pressure. And pitched within 24 hours, with a starter. Not ideal but didn't pick up any infection, smell from the prv is very clean.

I mean, if pitching a starter large enough, is there really any need at all to oxygenate? Won't pitching to carbonated wort basically force the yeast to not grow and go anaerobic straight away?


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## djar007 (26/3/14)

If only corny kegs had conical bottoms.http://www.blichmannengineering.com/new-innovations-coming-soon


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## manticle (26/3/14)

I know I'm tempting fate but there is a distinct krausen on the beer but nothing coming through the pressure valve as yet. I've just lifted it and turned it so it can't close. Maybe a litre or so headspace in the keg. No leakage so far.

If it stays like this, it's a very simple process.


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## pk.sax (26/3/14)

Well, what's the chances of a speck of dust floating in through that bottleneck with a legion of screaming bugs on it's back!

You be fine


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## manticle (26/3/14)

I could put a piece of glad wrap over it but I'm pretty confident in my mini-open fermentation, at least while it's active.


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## manticle (26/3/14)

Got me paranoid so I put the release valve back in and just partially unscrewed it so it replicates what I do with my cubes. CO2 release with no dust able to fall in.


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## pk.sax (26/3/14)

Bahaha. Really got you that dinnit.

I meant, it snakes down that hole with the spring and all that, hardly an infection risk...

I've put the belt on the fermenter today, the pressure was still building up but the temp was dropping. I'd be stoked if I can stop it from stalling this time.


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## manticle (26/3/14)

Main thing is that krausen leakage seems so far to be non-existent.

Yes you did get me. Bastard.


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## Florian (26/3/14)

I guess that's to do with the fact that you had the keg unpressurised from the beginning. Once you close it off and build up pressure it get's messy when you suddenly release the pressure.

Think coke bottle, take it out of the fridge, let it warm and then quickly open the lid = mess, take out of fridge, open lid, then let it warm + no mess, just because the Co2 is released as soon as it's coming out of solution, versus being ready to come out of solution (because coke warm), but pressure released (= lid opened) only once all Co2 is ready to come out.


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## manticle (27/3/14)

I can imagine it would be totally messy but why would you close it off for fermentation? Either controlled (spunding) or just give the CO2 somewhere to go. It's no different to any other FV in that regard.

Or does the spunding hold until it's too much then release? In which case I'll stick with the slightly loose PRV.


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## Florian (27/3/14)

With closing off I meant spunding, which is basically closing until a certain pressure is reached.

And yes, with spunding pressure builds up until it reaches or just overshoots a set threshold, then releases. But those commonly available spunding valves are unfortunately far from a precision instrument, it's a bit hit and miss and heaps of trial and error. 

I'd love for someone to develop a digital one, keep pressure at exact 184 kPa or the like. I'm sure they exist, but would be unaffordable for the regular home brewer I'm sure.


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## manticle (27/3/14)

If simply opening the PRV is enough, couldn't you do that and just attach the spunding valve for when the craziness has wound down (to achieve the natural carbonation)?

Or will the change in pressure release be enough to alter the beer significantly?


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## Florian (27/3/14)

Yes, could do that, would work well. Used to do something similar with mostly wheat beers:

once gravity was somewhere 1.025ish I used to transfer from primary to keg and attach spunding valve. With some fancy calculations that would probably go totally over my head you could even calculate at what exact gravity you'd need to transfer to achieve x amount of carbonation.

one of the reasons I kept the pressure on this time though was to find out a bit about this whole pressure ferment and esthers thing.


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## pk.sax (9/4/14)

Transferred the saison today. Few things.

Pressure seems to have made the saison go turbo in 2 weeks. Less than 2 weeks actually. Taste is dry, cannot detect any sweetness but the depth is there.

Most friggin annoying transfer ever. Wrt yeast, i.e. Unless you have the pressures etc set up perfectly for a fully closed transfer it's gonna be messy. I think on balance it is cheaper to spend a little gas and carbonate uncarbed beer than loose beer in wort showers and foam escaping the keg.

I hate not being able to see the level of beer in the vessels. I can feel the cold line descending and ascending but it is difficult to see when you got the yeast. I didn't get all the yeast out in the first hit before starting the transfer, the yeast was soft and fluffy.

Need to remember to take the gas off the keg transferring to and pressurise the fermenting keg before connecting them up or the gas shoots through the yeast and makes it all rise....

Don't think it was worth the bother on balance, I'm happy enough to wait longer for a ferment to finish at lower temps than deal with the mess.

Cleaning the keg post ferment however was a breeze compared to the carboy.


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## manticle (10/4/14)

My golden strong is tasting great.
I've been venting the pressure generated by the late sugar additions - no spurts or leaks.

Wouldn't it be reasonably simple to balance the pressure in the two kegs before transfer? I'm hoping it is because everything else in this method is so far ridiculously simple.


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## manticle (10/4/14)

I'll be using ross/zwickel transfer method which I'll link when not on phone. What method did you use PF?


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## Florian (10/4/14)

Zwickel method: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/16907-keg-transfer-made-easy/

That reminds me to better check on mine. Last time I checked it had stalled at 1.030 for a week which I never had before, decided to throw some champagne yeast at it that I still had flying around. Problem was that I had to release pressure from the keg to open and get the yeast in. Pressure relief valve was blocked within seconds, gas out was then also blocked with hop crap and beer out already had been from previous attempts. There was a tiny bit of pressure still releasing from the PRV, so I left that unattended for a few hours, then came back and tried to force the lid open by pushing on it. 
Needless to say it took me about 10 minutes of absolute violence, and once I could push the lid in I was greeted with an *massive* beer explosion, I was absolutely covered from head to toe in beer and, much worse, sticky hop matter, and so was my wife's car and everything else that was in the garage. Lucky it was raining outside so i just reversed the car out and left in the rain overnight, still had to work on it with the hose the next day though and clean all my fridges, tools and what not. At least my car was far enough away so that it only got a few splatters.

In hind side I wish i had set up a video camera, would be awesome footage. I think I took some photos afterwards but I better refrain myself from posting them here. 

To be honest, I'm sure it's all really easy to ferment in cornies, but I'm done with it and am looking at other stainless fermenting vessels. There are a few other things that bug me with cornies too.

I will however still be using them as no chill vessels and then transfer to a stainless fermenting vessel. The plan is then to transfer under pressure back to keg, this can also be done just before fermentation is finished to utilise that last bit of Co2 production for natural carbonation. I have done this many times in the past and know it works for me.


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## manticle (10/4/14)

I've been adding regular sugar syrup additions with no blockage or spillage but the bulk of fermentation allowed release of early co2 release.


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## pk.sax (10/4/14)

Well, basically I put gas pressure on the fermenting keg and then disconnected it, put the same pressure on the serving keg and disconnected it. Joined the two beer out posts and released a little pressure from the serving keg to start the transfer. Zwickel method ftw.

Trouble began when I realised that the serving keg was barely 70% full when the transfer completely stopped. Issues? Can't see in either keg so hard to confirm anything really. Wanted to see in the now serving keg so cracked the lid to have a peek and beer foam explosion. ****.

Well, basically, it works well in theory but doesn't leave much margin for error or manual intervention. That's what annoys me. It's like an embraer 190, insanely electronic and most issues are frickin indication or sensors or instruments (basically electrical) but the moment you mess with the mechanics it is a world of pain. Gimme back my boeing or even my dash 8.

I think I'd spilt at least 3-4 pints of beer in wort showers while releasing pressure during fermentation.


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## MastersBrewery (10/4/14)

first flush and pressurise serving keg, then bring ferm keg up to the same pressure leaving the gas attached, then conect beer out posts, now attach spunding to serving keg and adjust till gas starts releasing ...simples


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## manticle (20/4/14)

Well update - Belgian Golden strong which got an active starter of 1388 and was very full had no leakage during fermentation. Ferment was very healthy, hit FG in expected time, tastes like I'd expect a still conditioning Golden strong to taste.

Made a mild on saturday, no chilled into keg, again fairly full, added a fresh smack pack of 1469 and now there's bubbles and yeast crawling out the PR valve (which is open to allow CO2 release).

Not any different from when I ferment in very full cubes with monster yeasts but I thought I must have discovered something with reduced krausen/greater pressure when the golden strong just stayed quiet. Alas, that's not the case (or at least it's not so much the case that the ferment will be totally mess free). I'll perservere with the kegs for several reasons (space is a big one, use of stainless is another) but in the interestes of honesty, I can't pretend it's a perfect world.


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## Beerisyummy (21/4/14)

Interesting read Manticle. Good on you for having a crack and deciding to stick with it awhile longer.

I'm still fermenting in a 50L keg, alongside the odd 30L drum, and really like the keg for many reasons. I'm not really no chilling in the keg, but I do throw it in the fridge to get the temps down where I want them and can't say I've had any problems so far.
The keg fermenter is simple to clean and sanitise and will allow easily controlled carbonation with the use of a spunding valve. Just be aware that different yeasts will react differently to any head pressure applied during the ferment. That's my findings, so far anyway.

I'll be interested to see how you get on over a few more brews. :beerbang:

PS. I loved the experiment with the crushed bottles. From memory the CO2 is simply reduced in volume more than air when you cool it down. I don't think it's being absorbed by the wort much at all. Wort shrinks by about 4% right? Well the density of air increases by approx 7% from 20c to 0c. CO2 is something like 20% for the same drop as air so you can see what's happening there.
(I'd love to see how quickly you could chill a corny by wrapping it in a wet towel and blowing a fan on it. Might have to try that one myself.)


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## Florian (30/4/14)

OK, I had another crack at the fermenting side.

Brewed a batch of mild and no chilled directly in the Braumeister (sealed it off with foil and lid about a minute before end of boil).
One good thing that comes out of this is that there is absolutely no hot or cold break that got transferred to the corny, as the dead space is quite large without tilting the vessel. 

Transferred to the corny using one of those plastic aerator thingis directly onto a pack of rehydrated Windsor, which was already in the corny. 









Fermented under pressure at about 150 kPa at 18C.
Just connected the keg to the tap and dumped some of that yeast, but yet to chill the beer. 

Going great so far, I think the lack of dry hops and break has greatly helped in not blocking the dip tube.

I plan to serve this beer from the same keg it was fermented in. 

If this works well then it'll save a bit of work, as I only have two vessels to clean, the BM and the keg. No cleaning of no chill cube and fermenter.


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## manticle (30/4/14)

I've also got a mild in that I'm aiming to dispense from the same vessel. Looking good so far - should be ready by the weekend.

However struggling to get the golden strong to clear and I'm not sure if I may have to transfer to a bright tank of sorts. No finings - I only ever use cold and time so I'll wait a bit longer. Tastes good but would be better clear. I've got a test glass in the same fridge and it appears as if it's still yeast dropping out which is what my palate also tells me.


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## dent (30/4/14)

I've done some fermenting in corny kegs a few times. 

What I did was use two kegs. One with the wort, the other empty but clean and sanitised. I made a short connector hose with a gas disconnect on one end and a beer disconnect on the other.
On the empty keg I modified the PRV with a much softer spring so the release pressure was about 14 psi.

So the keg with wort would be the fermenter with the hose connected onto the gas disconnect. The other empty keg would be on the beer end. 

What would happen, is as the 1st keg fermented away, the krausen would be released out the gas disconnect, through the tube and into the 2nd keg. This reduces the amount of yeast collected at the bottom of the 1st keg so it can be used immediately without racking. The pressure would be sufficient to get the beer mostly carbonated too. The 2nd keg would end up with a litre or two of yeasty krausen in there - perfect to tip another cube of wort onto for the next batch! Swap the lids (PRVs) over and the cycle continues.


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## Not For Horses (30/4/14)

That is exceedingly clever dent. I'm impressed.


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## Bribie G (30/4/14)

Glad this thread has been revived. My next brew, when I get back from Grafton next week, is going to be a Dortmunder tryout for the competition season.

I intend to produce around a 14L batch and no chill in a nitromix-flushed cornie, then transfer with splashing to a second cornie for fermentation. The second cornie will be fitted with a shortened dip tube to sit above the level of the eventual yeast cake.

Brew will be fermented then lagered in the same cornie then bottled using a simple bronco gun and put aside for comps. I can lager down to -1 and don't usually go weeks, about ten days seems to always do the trick.

Two advantages, minimal contact with oxygen hot side and use of SS vessels. Also for fermenting and lagering I can keep 3 cornies in my Kegmate style fermenting fridge.

Problem (ok it's a third world problem) with doing full size batches for comp brewing is the expense, hard to find enough fermenting real estate and you can end up with heaps and heaps of beer in styles that you don't necessarily prefer to drink.

edit; Mr perfect made a typo


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## Bribie G (30/4/14)

I should arise from my arschloch and see for myself, but does the beer out post stay sealed with no dip tube in place? No real need to fit a pickup till bottling and just one more place for krausen ring to form.


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## Florian (30/4/14)

No, it doesn't stay sealed.

You could replace with a gas dip tube though to _possibly_ overcome the Krausen issue, but personally I wouldn't bother.


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## Bribie G (30/4/14)

Yup just wipe her off, no hassle.


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## Rambo (30/4/14)

Also got a saison fermenting away in a corny which I also no chilled in. Gave it a thorough shake before I pitched rehydrated yeast last night, then attached a gas disconnect (threaded kind) with a silicon tube going into a bottle of Starsan. Was bubbling away before I went to bed, and the krausen was coming up the tube when I checked it this morning... So I think I got enough oxygen in there.

I also no chilled an APA in a corny a few weeks, will be fermenting that one soon so will be seeing how the corny stacks up as a no chill vessel longer term.

Going to have to try dents method soon though too.


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## Bribie G (30/4/14)

I like the idea of the gas disconnect with a blow off tube into a jar. I'll grab a cheapy threaded one from the LHBS and attach some gas line. Doing lagers so hopefully no frothing.


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## Rambo (30/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> I like the idea of the gas disconnect with a blow off tube into a jar. I'll grab a cheapy threaded one from the LHBS and attach some gas line. Doing lagers so hopefully no frothing.


The threaded one I'm using (without JG fitting) gets a pretty good seal on a standard silicon tube, which should be easy to clean once it gets full of krausen.


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## pk.sax (30/4/14)

If you were to decide to pressure ferment a saison at all, my pressure ferment went to 1.008. It never stalled AFAIK.


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## manticle (18/5/14)

So in my experience, the beers that I've no chilled in corny, then transferred have worked out very well.

However the two that I've fermented in there have had issues - mostly the inability to pull enough of the trub out to ever get clear or clear tasting beer. It's unlikely I'll do any more. Obviously if you wanted to devote a keg to just fermenting, it would work fine as you could shorten the diptube but I often have multiple batches fermenting at once.

Belgian Golden strong has haze issues despite gelatine and polyclar (which I never use) and extended time in the cold. I am going to transfer this to a barrel fermenter today, give it a few more days for trub to settle then re-keg. Mild is all gone and while it was OK, I never got that UK brightness I get from 1469 and there was a decent amount of sludge at the end of the keg.

I'll go back to fermenting directly in cubes and transferring corny NC wort to cubes or barrel fermenters. I had hoped the process would be nice, simple and uncomplicated but unfortunately it isn't with my current set-up.


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## pk.sax (18/5/14)

Sums it up nicely I think too Mants.

I've got myself 2 more cornies (thanks ciaron) for NC etc but reverting to unpressurised ferment. Don't think our clearing agents are up to the task for these, might be good for the filtering mob.


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## Beermonster (20/11/20)

Old thread revival. It's the closest I've found on here to my question I'm hoping others have thoughts on;

No chill into Kegmenter, say 80 degrees Celsius, what's the medium to long term impact on the rubber top and bottom? 

I tend to rinse my legs with water about 70 Celcius and have even thought that is probably damaging the post seals. I'm okay with shortening the life of the post seals so long as I'm not getting decomposing rubber in my beer. I'm less okay with the rubber top and bottom separating from the stainless steel after a few dozen brews. 

Unlike a hot rinse that exposes the keg to maybe 70 degrees for 10 minutes, no chill into a keg with say 17 Litres of juice at 80 degrees is going to expose the keg to several hours, even in a fridge.


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## Hangover68 (20/11/20)

Using a corny you will need to pressurize it otherwise it will draw in oxygen as it cools.


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## Beermonster (20/11/20)

Yea I figured that, or otherwise leave the PRV in the open position. More a case of whether anyone is doing what I'm proposing to do routinely over the long term without issues.


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