# Kviek Pitching Rates



## chefeffect (4/11/20)

I am realy excited to try Kviek yeast strains! I stopped brewing for a few years when I purchased a business and had a few kids. I am slowly getting back into it and today I made a Kolch so I can play with LalBrew Kviek Voss yeast and realy see how this yeast works. I also plan to wash and freeze after I ferment this brew of SG 1.043 and 22 IBU so should be a good brew to harvest from. I live rural without a close brew store and want to get a bit of yeast bank going again.

What are people experiences on pitching rates for this strain? Most Kviek pitching rates are close to half the pitching rate of standard yeasts. Why is Voss higher?

I have oslo to use next and the rates for it is like 5 gm for 20 lt... Yet the Voss is to 10gm-20gm for 20 lt. I have two packets of Voss and 2 x 20lt cubes ready to pitch just wondering if I use a packet in each or split a packet over the two cubes.


----------



## DTee (4/11/20)

I pitched LaBrew Voss into a 1040 Ale this morning. I pitched the entire 11g pack into 22L. No starter or rehydrating, just dry yeast straight onto the wort. Sitting at 35 deg, and after only a couple of hours it's already very, very active. 

It seems like a lot of experienced Kviek brewers would recommend pitching only half that amount. Like you, I'm also intending on harvesting some yeast, so will top crop tomorrow. If that goes to plan, I'll try underpitching on subsequent brews.

Good luck.


----------



## chefeffect (4/11/20)

DTee said:


> Good luck.



Right back at you!! Hope it goes well.


----------



## Grmblz (4/11/20)

Ahhh, the rabbit hole, 
First question chef, why Kveik? (what are you trying to achieve)
If the answer is high gravity brews at 35c done in 4 days with predominantly mandarin/orangey citrus flavours, great.
Wash and freeze? I have a glycol frozen yeast bank, Kveik isn't in it, dried, bagged, kept in fridge.
1040 for Kveik? wtf. That's a bit like putting a 14yr old in a formula 1 car, no offence guys but do some homework, there's a shit load of info out there these days.
Pitching rates? forget what you know about yeast, chuck a bit in and be amazed at the results.
Cheers G


----------



## chefeffect (4/11/20)

[/QUOTE]


Grmblz said:


> 1040 for Kveik? wtf. That's a bit like putting a 14yr old in a formula 1 car, no offence guys but do some homework, there's a shit load of info out there these days.



Slightly offensive with a slight disclaimer lol WTF helpful not.

I like lager like beers without lagering. That's the simple answer.


----------



## Grmblz (4/11/20)

Slightly offensive with a slight disclaimer lol WTF helpful not.

I like lager like beers without lagering. That's the simple answer.
[/QUOTE]
Ahhh, ok, that's easy, pressure ferment, but not with Kveik.
Again, no offence meant but as a 2yr veteran of using Kveik it has its good points and its bad, to fully use its positives (fast fermenting high grav) you need to be at 35c plus, at these temp's it throws flavours, NOT ideal for lager.
Want a big juicy DIPA/RIS? Kveiks your man err woman err wbzqtna whatever.
It will ferment fairly clean at 18c and take a week but then again so will many others, hence my question "what are you trying to achieve" I wasn't being a smart arse, just trying to ascertain your objectives.


----------



## chefeffect (4/11/20)

(Insert image of: assumed newbie coming on hands and knees grovelling to a two year veteran of Kviek)

Asking: 'Please sir, if its not so much to ask, could you just answer my original question?'


----------



## kadmium (4/11/20)

chefeffect said:


> (Insert image of: assumed newbie coming on hands and knees grovelling to a two year veteran of Kviek)
> 
> Asking: 'Please sir, if its not so much to ask, could you just answer my original question?'


The answer would be, if you want a quick lager use W34-70 lager yeast under 10PSI at 21c. 

If you don't want to pressure ferment and think that Kveik will give you a lager type beer you're not going to be happy. 

Pitch rate is far less than most yeast as you're fermenting it hot, so go by the packet. Why is Oslo different to hornindal etc? Who knows.


----------



## chefeffect (4/11/20)

kadmium said:


> The answer would be, if you want a quick lager use W34-70 lager yeast under 10PSI at 21c.
> 
> If you don't want to pressure ferment and think that Kveik will give you a lager type beer you're not going to be happy.



Thank you! Thats a bit disappointing. I have used W34-70 with good results. 

I have been out of the loop and when I saw Kveik yeasts, and spent some time looking around, I thought it might be a silver bullet kind of yeast for clean fast fermented lighter grain driven beers.


----------



## kadmium (4/11/20)

chefeffect said:


> Thank you! Thats a bit disappointing. I have used W34-70 with good results.
> 
> I have been out of the loop and when I saw Kveik yeasts, and spent some time looking around, I thought it might be a silver bullet kind of yeast for clean fast fermented lighter grain driven beers.


By all means Kveik is great yeast and you will make great beer. Its just that when people say Oslo is "clean" they mean ester reduced. You won't get the crispness of a true lager. It will be more like a Kolsch. Still a delicious, nice beer. 

I've personally found that to get a good lager you have to put the effort in. Even a hot fermented lager under pressure needs a week or two and by week 3 or 4 its great. 

Yeah, Oslo or Lutra done hot under pressure may be clean, but they just don't have the crispness I feel. 

But by all means, give them a crack. They will be tasty beers!


----------



## chefeffect (4/11/20)

Doing some research on preasure brewing.., looks like its the silver bullet... I feel like a 90 year old using Facebook ATM.. Maybe I shouldnt give up a passion for 5 years.


----------



## kadmium (4/11/20)

Haha. Yeah pressure fermenting is a whole new world. It really shines in clean, warm fermentation of lagers. It reduces Fusels and other nasties usually present. I do a lager in 5 or 6 days fermentation and then about 2 weeks of conditioning. So still a 3 week beer but that's the best trade off I've found. 

I've had an Oslo beer done grain to glass in 9 days and it was nice but not what I would say is a crisp lager.


----------



## Grmblz (4/11/20)

chefeffect said:


> (Insert image of: assumed newbie coming on hands and knees grovelling to a two year veteran of Kviek)
> 
> Asking: 'Please sir, if its not so much to ask, could you just answer my original question?'


Everything he ^ said. Now back to planet America,


----------



## MHB (5/11/20)

Personally I think there no magic bullets or shortcuts in brewing.
The effects of pressure fermentation has been studied since the 1970's and is used commercially, but its worth noting that the only producers using it are very much bottom shelf. It is used to speed up production of cheap beer to an acceptable standard. Not the choice you make if you are looking for the best beer possible.

I'm not saying that you cant make basic lager quicker by pressure fermenting, but that there is a price.
Primarily pressure fermentation is used to suppress VDK (Diacetyl and friends) production, it also known to increase Acetaldehyde and Ethylacetate production as well as changing the way Sulphur is managed by yeast. The outcome will be a different beer.
I helped judge a local comp a few months ago. the number of beers coming through with distinct burnt match Sulphur notes was startling, along with a fair amount of green apple and a couple that would have made good nail polish remover.
I strongly suspect that some of these were pressure fermented beers.

Pressure fermenting isn't a silver bullet, its a process that has pros and cons. Before launching into pressure fermentation take a long hard look at both sides and at alternatives like really massive yeast pitches, another way to speed up lager production, both have benefits and drawbacks.
Mark


----------



## kadmium (5/11/20)

MHB said:


> Personally I think there no magic bullets or shortcuts in brewing.
> The effects of pressure fermentation has been studied since the 1970's and is used commercially, but its worth noting that the only producers using it are very much bottom shelf. It is used to speed up production of cheap beer to an acceptable standard. Not the choice you make if you are looking for the best beer possible.
> 
> I'm not saying that you cant make basic lager quicker by pressure fermenting, but that there is a price.
> ...


I agree with some aspects, but to politely disagree badly made beer will always taste badly made. And pressure fermenting on a commercial scale would be a huge investment for a brewery so probably a cost factor as to why they aren't changing over. 

Also, I personally pressure ferment and I note no apple, sulfur or burnt match flavours in either aroma nor taste. 

I understand you don't like it nor agree with it, but a large volume of home brewers make great beer using pressure.

I personally think pressure fermentation gets a bad name because its a fairly new thing for homebrewers (in terms of cost)

I do agree you need to be cautious and can't treat it as a fool proof method, but I personally have not found it to be detrimental in producing lagers. Thats my own experience and I'm not as knowledgeable on the science behind it, but I drink a fair bit haha


----------



## mje1980 (5/11/20)

IMHO If you pitch a fugg load of lager yeast at cold temps, it won’t need weeks upon weeks of conditioning.


----------



## Moojie (5/11/20)

chefeffect said:


> I am realy excited to try Kviek yeast strains! I stopped brewing for a few years when I purchased a business and had a few kids. I am slowly getting back into it and today I made a Kolch so I can play with LalBrew Kviek Voss yeast and realy see how this yeast works. I also plan to wash and freeze after I ferment this brew of SG 1.043 and 22 IBU so should be a good brew to harvest from. I live rural without a close brew store and want to get a bit of yeast bank going again.
> 
> What are people experiences on pitching rates for this strain? Most Kviek pitching rates are close to half the pitching rate of standard yeasts. Why is Voss higher?
> 
> I have oslo to use next and the rates for it is like 5 gm for 20 lt... Yet the Voss is to 10gm-20gm for 20 lt. I have two packets of Voss and 2 x 20lt cubes ready to pitch just wondering if I use a packet in each or split a packet over the two cubes.




hey, I've been using Voss for everything since i first tried it earlier this year, just playing around mainly with some ales and largers.... But as a few have said, it's defiantly a rabbit hole.

You will only need 1 x 11g pack dry per cube, and then you will have plenty to harvest from there. You will want to bottom harvest Voss as described in the "farmhouse yeast registry" google it, (i'm still a noob here too, so not sure if links are allowed)

i am about 6 brews deep off my first harvest, and continually harvest off each brew, but you can see the concentration dropping. i just keep them in a slurry in jars in the fridge and gradually wash them, pleanty of YT videos on it.
You only need about 1 tsp of the slurry for each 23lt batch from there. Voss unlike normal yeasts, likes to work hard. Seeing you location, it's a great yeast to use if you dont have temp control coming into the warmer months.


----------



## DTee (5/11/20)

Grmblz said:


> 1040 for Kveik? wtf. That's a bit like putting a 14yr old in a formula 1 car, no offence guys but do some homework, there's a shit load of info out there these days.


Lol - Kviek's tolerance to alcohol is the property I am the least interested in for the purposes of this beer.

The 1040 ale was chosen specifically to use on a beer I'm very familiar with, so I will know exactly what flavours are from the yeast. It's also why I'm fermenting it hot - specifically to encourage the yeasts own flavours.


----------



## MHB (5/11/20)

kadmium said:


> I agree with some aspects, but to politely disagree badly made beer will always taste badly made. And pressure fermenting on a commercial scale would be a huge investment for a brewery so probably a cost factor as to why they aren't changing over.
> 
> Also, I personally pressure ferment and I note no apple, sulfur or burnt match flavours in either aroma nor taste.
> 
> ...


Your points in order
Cost Factor
Not likely, the vast majority of beer is brewed in CCV fermenters that are pressure rated and quite capable of being run both hot and at high (carbonating) pressures.

I don't know you well enough to comment on your palate.
I've met brewers making awesome beers who aren't happy and are looking to improve and brewers making muck that would make a dog spew who think their lacto infected puss is the nuts.
I will be much more interested in feedback from good competitions/blind tastings... by trained brewers and judges than what people think of their own efforts. Sure we all brew for ourselves, but in all fairness some sort of objective standards are required to evaluate any process or ingredient.

Not liking
Wrong! if something works I'm more than happy to support it.
What I object to is the notion that its some sort of wonder process, it isn't. Make crap quality wort, mismanage your yeast... pressure fermenting wont make it better, we still need to learn how to brew.
Even given high quality wort is it the best way to make all beers, I think not. There are some real downsides to pressure fermenting ales and some tradeoffs when making lager.

Cost
Meh if you have a keg system you can very effectively pressure ferment for an extra $20 or so. Cost isn't an issue for me.

I do think that letting the pressure rise as part of the fermentation process, from open to full conditioning with a bit of unrestricted time at the start to flush out volatiles that we really don't want in the beer can have some benefits, particularly when it comes to some nasty Thiols (S flavours).
Again this isn't news Kunze covers it pretty thoroughly form the early 90'S (3rd) editions and on.
Typically reduces a 28 day brewing cycle to about 21 days, effectively making the brewery 25% larger at no cost (now we are talking serious money) again at a price most brewers aren't willing to pay.

Pressure fermentation is a tool, like any tool it has its uses and there will be things it isn't good for, worlds best hammer is crap at digging holes, doesn't make it a bad hammer.
Mark


----------



## kadmium (5/11/20)

Yeah fair points, I meant its growing because pressure rated fermenters capable of brewing full keg batches have become readily accessible (PET)

And agree you can't just take bad wort and pressurise it but no one said that's what they are aiming to do, so it's not really a relevant argument. 

Most commercial beer tastes like pus, and while objective independent judges would be handy, I don't have a team of people on standby to try every beer I brew. Nor do I care for their opinion, as I and all of my family and friends enjoy the beer. I wouldn't assume that you make terrible beer, just like I won't assume someone else makes bad beer because they are interested in pressure fermenting. 

I fully agree that its a tool that should be used with restraint and understanding, but its like saying that a Paslode is no good because people have shot themselves in the hands with them, and they don't apply even pressure and that you should learn to use a hammer because its superior and has been used for hundreds of years. 

Sometimes people should try it themselves, and make a decision based on their actual experience rather than a bunch of opinions on a brewing forum. So, I suggest like before that if the OP is interested in quick turn lagers, try pressure fermenting and make your own decision on whether it tastes like putrid, appley pus that needs to be thrown out. 

Then again maybe I just don't have a pallete as refined as MHB. I only drink tap water


----------



## MHB (5/11/20)

tried so hard to make the point without making it personal.
I wasn't having a shot as I thought was clear, sorry if you missed that.


----------



## kadmium (5/11/20)

MHB said:


> tried so hard to make the point without making it personal.
> I wasn't having a shot as I thought was clear, sorry if you missed that.


I wasn't taking it personally I was having a laugh!


----------



## Nullnvoid (6/11/20)

My suggested pitching rate of kviek is...pitching it straight into the rubbish bin.


----------



## gaijin (6/11/20)

I made a split batch (2 x 22L fermenters) and fermented one with a full vial of Yeast Bay liquid Sigmund's (Voss) Kveik at 28C and the other with Lalbrew Kolsch dry yeast at 16C plus diacetyl rest.

With 80% pilsner, 15% wheat and 5% Vienna malts. It came out to 1.048 and finished at about 1.009

I was expecting fruity, orange esters from the Voss, but only got a crispy, nondescript fruity/slightly earthy ale flavour. I don't know if the pitching rate or temps lower than 35C were the cause. Next time I brew a kveik, I plan to underpitch by half (dry Lalbrew Voss this time) and ramp up the temps to 35C if ambient garage temps permit to see if I can get some orange. It was a little bit of a let down, but my lager loving mates raved about it, even though it tasted nothing like a lager or kolsch. I think it's because I didn't serve them something loaded with hops for once (pussies).

The kolsch was amazing and you would hardly guess it came from the same wort.

Hope this helps, and if anyone can verify the effects of underpitching the Voss from their experience, it would be appreciated.


----------



## Grmblz (6/11/20)

I'd say it was the cool temp, I don't do lagers (very often) but with ales run it hot, high abv, underpitched, and you'll get the mandarin/citrus, haven't used it with wheat though, so maybe someone else can chime in.


----------

