# Making Invert Sugar



## AndrewQLD (7/8/11)

Getting right back into brewing now and have been attempting a few historical beers from shut up about Barclay Perkins, a lot of the recipes require Invert sugar in one form or another and the colors range a fair bit between recipes. I found an invert sugar designer after a bit of searching at half a cat calculators there are full instructions on making invert No.1, 2, 3 and black, I won't bother going through the procedures but if anyone is interested check out the link above.

Here's the result of my attempt using raw sugar and lactic acid, the pale one is straight Invert and the darker one is invert No.3 the darker one is going in my Mild that's mashing as we speak.


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## felten (7/8/11)

I tried this last week as well and it came out looking very similar, and very tasty. The cool thing about making it this way is it stays liquid so you don't have to mess around with breaking up the sugar or melting it before you add it to the kettle/fermenter.


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## AndrewQLD (7/8/11)

It looks really good felten and it surprised me just how clear the syrup is, apparently if it does crystallize or turn rock hard then the process has failed and you don't have invert sugar.


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## Duff (7/8/11)

Looks good Andrew. We're moving back to Brisbane this month and when I unpack the brew gear I'll be giving this a go.

Cheers.


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## CosmicBertie (7/8/11)

I wish I'd seen this before I paid $20 for 1Kg of Candi-syrup from G+G. Whats the approximate cost for this?


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## AndrewQLD (7/8/11)

Pretty much the cost of a bag of raw sugar and some lactic acid, not much at all. 
I used 450g raw sugar, 450 ml water and 5 ml acid.


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## CosmicBertie (7/8/11)

AndrewQLD said:


> Pretty much the cost of a bag of raw sugar and some lactic acid, not much at all.
> I used 450g raw sugar, 450 ml water and 5 ml acid.




Cool...and at the cost of sounding like an idiot, where did you get the acid from?


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## AndrewQLD (7/8/11)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> Cool...and at the cost of sounding like an idiot, where did you get the acid from?



G & G


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## felten (7/8/11)

I used citric acid as I didn't have any lactic on hand.


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## [email protected] (7/8/11)

Anyone know if phosphoric acid would work?


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## keifer33 (7/8/11)

Good to see it all works. Have had that link bookmarked for a while and haven't got around to it but reading about all these historic beers its got me interested in trying it.


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## Bribie G (7/1/13)

Necro alert.

What is light corn sugar as mentioned in Andrew's link ? Would a bit of maltose syrup be a substitute?


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> Necro alert.
> 
> What is light corn sugar as mentioned in Andrew's link ? Would a bit of maltose syrup be a substitute?



Corn sugar's sub would be fructose.


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## Mikedub (7/1/13)

thanks for this Andrew, just starting to plan out some Belgians and have been thinking about sugars


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## hsb (7/1/13)

I've used these instructions in the past, just subbing Wyeast Yeast Nutrient for DAP.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-suga...utrient-114837/

I made the Deep Amber, tasted delicious, would be great just poured over ice-cream.
I put mine in a Dubbel and turned out good. Maybe just a hint of 'candy floss', like the caramel isn't quite intense enough.
I've never tried the 'real' Candi Syrup as available from suppliers, so will be using that next to get a direct comparison.


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## mje1980 (7/1/13)

Haha funny site!. I've always wondered about the flavour invert sugar will give. Sounds not too hard, im a keen uk ale brewer so if it adds something more flavour wise, i'll be happy. Cheap too. Don't have the fancy thermometer though...


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## Mikedub (7/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Don't have the fancy thermometer though...



me neither, so just purchased this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Meat-Candy-Jam-...=item1e721d3af7


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

hsb said:


> I've never tried the 'real' Candi Syrup as available from suppliers, so will be using that next to get a direct comparison.



The extra dark belgium-made stuff that Craftbrewer sell is just insane delicious. 

I made a blonde with no spec malts in it. 100% of the colour is from the candisyrup. Wicked.

Just put together the other day, a Dubbel recipe with no spec malts. 25EBC ... all from the syrup. Pretty much a SMaSH Dubbel only Pils malt.

Expensive, and worth every penny. Liquid toffee - that signature taste (and deep red colour) of Leffe Radieuse.


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## Bribie G (7/1/13)

Sounds like the go, Mike. I've been just "winging" it with my invert and probably producing something like invert no. one and a half  as I don't want to risk turning the thing into a pan of char. 

My batch this afternoon could have been darker, but tastes suspiciously like Bundaberg Golden Syrup. Headed for my Wells Bombardier tribute later on today. I used a flat tsp of citric acid, the results aren't very acidic to taste, I expect that will get lost in the brew. Citric Acid is the keystone of the Krebs Cycle that powers cells so I expect it may get taken up during fermentation.


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

There's a lot of overcomplication in making caramel on brewing forums.

Watch this. Before he adds the butter, you've got a great amber candy syrup.

Ingredients: 

Sugar.


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## Bribie G (7/1/13)

Is candi syrup inverted?


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## hsb (7/1/13)

Nick JD said:


> The extra dark belgium-made stuff that Craftbrewer sell is just insane delicious.
> 
> I made a blonde with no spec malts in it. 100% of the colour is from the candisyrup. Wicked.
> 
> ...


I was re-reading up on Orval production last night and although they use just a little caramel malt in the initial grist, much of the colour is from the candi syrup they add to the cold wort prior to pitching, and then again for secondary fermentation (great idea) - my plan is to feed orval dregs candi syrup in secondary next time I make a Belgian.
http://www.orval.be/en/58/How-Orval-beer-is-made

Your SMASH Dubbel sounds great there, definitely worth every penny, especially when you factor in how much we all spend drinking imported Trappist beers here, still dirt cheap and even nicer than the real thing sometimes, for being fresher and for being the fruits of your own labour. One Candi Syrup order coming up, look forward to tasting how far off the real thing my Candi syrup was. 
Would ultimately like to make my own that tastes as good as the imported syrup here sounds..


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> Is candi syrup inverted?



If it stays a syrup, yes. That's a characteristic of inversion - doesn't crystalise out. 

The acid is a catalyst by lowing the pH in inverting sugars. But the heat will do it by itself if you're brave enough.

Using lots of water means the acid will have more time to help the heat invert the sucrose - but I'd guess frying dry sugar is violent enough to carmelise and invert.

I also add my candi to the boil - so it'll invert there as well. Then again, I don't mind sucrose in my beer. Not at all. If I'm using a caramelised sugar, it's the caramelisation I'm after - or I'd just use dextrose.

Wiki says:

_Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding roughly one gram of citric acid or ascorbic acid per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.

The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes to get to a temperature of 114 C (237 F),[3] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. *Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.*

All inverted sugar syrups are created from hydrolyzing sucrose to glucose (dextrose) and fructose by heating a sucrose solution, then relying on time alone, with the catalytic properties of an acid or enzymes used to speed the reaction. Commercially prepared acid catalysed solutions are neutralized when the desired level of inversion is reached.

All constituent sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose) support fermentation, so invert sugar solutions may be fermented as readily as sucrose solutions._


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## Bribie G (7/1/13)

Adding to the boil is something I never quite got my head around, as the trub at the end of the process is going to be luvverly sweet trub flavoured with the fruits of your hard labour when making the invert (or if using da sugaz from the supermarket, your hard labour driving to Aldi). 

I've always added my sugars to the fermenter being a tightarse, and yes I do realise that this pushes up the OG as well. 

Rationale for adding sugars to the boil is the added caramelisation I would guess, but is this worthwhile considering you are probably just going to chuck maybe 10% of them down t' shitter?


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> Adding to the boil is something I never quite got my head around, as the trub at the end of the process is going to be luvverly sweet trub flavoured with the fruits of your hard labour when making the invert (or if using da sugaz from the supermarket, your hard labour driving to Aldi).
> 
> I've always added my sugars to the fermenter being a tightarse, and yes I do realise that this pushes up the OG as well.
> 
> Rationale for adding sugars to the boil is the added caramelisation I would guess, but is this worthwhile considering you are probably just going to chuck maybe 10% of them down t' shitter?



I'm adding 100% of the kettle to the fermenter these days h34r: 

The beers I've made with the only colour coming from the sugar's caramelisation have not lost their colour to the trub - however, when I add the dark candisyrup to the fermenter, the fermenter trub is dark - I believe I get a better amalgamisation if it's in the boil, as it seems to go straight to the bottom of the fermenter and no mix well. Dunno why. Another rationale for my addition of candy to the boil is I don't completely trust its cleanliness - especially when I have to flick the ants off the cap...  And have been known to lick a dribble off the side of the bottle thread. 

Damn that shit is tasty.


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## Batz (7/1/13)

I had a go at making this stuff for a brew around 15 years ago, I used raw sugar and citric acid. It could not have been a very adventurous brew back in those early days, in fact I don't remember what I used it in. 

Still this thread has given me some fresh inspiration, I feel a Chimay Blue in the pipe line.

Batz


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## QldKev (7/1/13)

If you've got a couple planned within a month or two, the stuff keeps ok in the fridge. I've only ever made the lighter version and used blackstrap to darken it. Which reminds me, I was going to try a hit of blackstrap in a beer one day. 

QldKev


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## Mikedub (7/1/13)

if adding to the boil is the go, would it matter if you took the syrup up past 275F - 135C (according to the interwebs) and made rocks instead, I'm thinking easier to store


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## wessmith (7/1/13)

This article makes interesting reading and confirms for me the fact that commercial candi syrup is made from a by-product of beet sugar production - with a lot more processing!

http://nateobrew.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/c...ow-to-make.html

Wes


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

I made some with raw sugar a few months back - very nice.

Gave up 3 years ago trying to copy the monk's stuff - there's some religious voodoo in it.


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## mje1980 (8/1/13)

I just bought a thermometer off eBay. For $8 its worth a go. Those uk ales seem to be so complex for such a simple grain bill, love to get some more yummy malty flavours in mine.


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## tiprya (8/1/13)

I made some from raw sugar that I added to an English IPA

MO plus about 5% dark invert, and it created great caramelly flavours that I havn't gotten from crystal.

I think for british beers (at least traditional recipes) it is a good improvement.


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## Mikedub (8/1/13)

the dark strong I'm planning calls for 1.5kg syrup, I'm sure the retail version is very good but at $12 per 500ml I reckon I'll enjoying chancing my hand at making it myself, 

quote from Brew Like a Monk 
"Start with the idea that the spirit of Belgium is to make great beer with what we have, Then it is almost anti-spirit to spend xxx on (pre-made) candi sugar. The Belgians would have asked, what is the cheapest sugar I have, and that was local sugar"


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## Nick JD (8/1/13)

Mikedub said:


> quote from Brew Like a Monk
> "Start with the idea that the spirit of Belgium is to make great beer with what we have, Then it is almost anti-spirit to spend xxx on (pre-made) candi sugar. The Belgians would have asked, what is the cheapest sugar I have, and that was local sugar"



Quote from me:

You can't make that shit at home.


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## drew9242 (8/1/13)

I made invert sugar at home, due to the fact i cant just go down to the shop and pick some up. So i just made my own. Was very easy apart from the constant time you had to sit there watching it. It was for my Case swap beer and i think some people seem to like it so i assume it worked. Just give it a go i reckon.


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## Nick JD (8/1/13)

I need to clarify. I'm not saying you can't make a nice candy syrup at home or simply invert some sucrose (not sure why you'd bother when dextrose is so cheap and sucrose inverts in the boil) I'm saying that I'd love to hear someone say: here's how the monks do it. 

I've heard they use beet sugar products (not totally actual beet sugar - but some kinda "mollases" from production) and tricky acids and funky steps - but I haven't been able to find an actual recipe for the real thing.

Two things I've resigned myself not being able to do in brewing: make candy syrup taste like belgian stuff and get _that_ commercial German Pilsner character.


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## QldKev (8/1/13)

Mikedub said:


> if adding to the boil is the go, would it matter if you took the syrup up past 275F - 135C (according to the interwebs) and made rocks instead, I'm thinking easier to store



But the taste of the product would be changed, if you want that more full on sour taste it would be ok. I want that sweet candied flavor in mine. 




Nick JD said:


> I need to clarify. I'm not saying you can't make a nice candy syrup at home or simply invert some sucrose (not sure why you'd bother when dextrose is so cheap and sucrose inverts in the boil) I'm saying that I'd love to hear someone say: here's how the monks do it.
> 
> I've heard they use beet sugar products (not totally actual beet sugar - but some kinda "mollases" from production) and tricky acids and funky steps - but I haven't been able to find an actual recipe for the real thing.
> 
> Two things I've resigned myself not being able to do in brewing: make candy syrup taste like belgian stuff and get _that_ commercial German Pilsner character.



Does it really invert that well in the boil that well. We boil at just over 100c, maybe 102c. To invert the sugar don't we need 115c'ish?


I've followed Andrew's blog? and found the end result tasted nothing like normal sugar. It was way more sweeter and stayed through though to the final beer, along with that caramely goodness 




Maybe I should head down the road and pick up some Mol A and also some Mol B and try to invert it. Shit that will be sweet. 

QldKev


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## Batz (8/1/13)

> I just bought a thermometer off eBay. For $8 its worth a go. Those uk ales seem to be so complex for such a simple grain bill, love to get some more yummy malty flavours in mine.



Me too, I'm going to get right into this!



> Quote from me:
> 
> You can't make that shit at home.



You can't tell a home brewer that Nick....that's why we are home brewers.  

Perhaps you should have said "I can't make that shit at home" Nick.

Batz


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## Nick JD (8/1/13)

Batz said:


> Perhaps you should have said "I can't make that shit at home" Nick.



Perhaps I should have said: I challenge anyone to make a dark candy syrup that tastes the same as the Belgian stuff Craftbrewer sell. 

When you do ... give me the recipe. 

I can tell you now that you can't make it with some acid, sucrose and water.


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## Mikedub (8/1/13)

no doubt a portion of mine will end up on some ice cream on the way to the kettle,


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## GuyQLD (9/1/13)

Batz said:


> I had a go at making this stuff for a brew around 15 years ago, I used raw sugar and citric acid. It could not have been a very adventurous brew back in those early days, in fact I don't remember what I used it in.
> 
> Still this thread has given me some fresh inspiration, I feel a Chimay Blue in the pipe line.
> 
> Batz



That makes two of us Batz, I'm thinking this weekend I'll give it a crack. Anyone got a tried and tested clone? Otherwise I'll go listen to Jamil and see what I can google, most of the ones I've found so far don't look that good though.

I'm thinking I'l use raw sugar for the invert though and go with the no acid approach. Looks like slightly more work but who knows. Might be worth it.


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## mje1980 (12/1/13)

Thermo arrived yesterday. I'm gunna try it today. Hope i get it right!


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## mje1980 (12/1/13)

I have my biggest burner going, and it is boiling, but my thermo is only reading 103celcius. Not sure if the thermo is wrong, but it is reading 100 for boiling water so not sure what's going on. I did a full kilo. D'oh


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## AndrewQLD (12/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> I have my biggest burner going, and it is boiling, but my thermo is only reading 103celcius. Not sure if the thermo is wrong, but it is reading 100 for boiling water so not sure what's going on. I did a full kilo. D'oh



Give it a bit of time, as it boils off the temp will rise very slowly at first and then very quickly.


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## mje1980 (12/1/13)

Is it stuffed if it gets too hot?, my cheap thermometer decided to work, and It went over, about 120 c. Think I'll return this one and get a decent one. Sitting around 117 c now.


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## AndrewQLD (12/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Is it stuffed if it gets too hot?, my cheap thermometer decided to work, and It went over, about 120 c. Think I'll return this one and get a decent one. Sitting around 117 c now.



It will be fine, it's very easy to overshoot the temp. As long as you get it back to around the correct temp for the majority of the cook you won't have any problems.


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## mje1980 (12/1/13)

Cheer mate, thanks for the advice. Now I need to formulate a recipe. I'm going to weigh it when it's done, then just add it plus MO, no crystal, and see how it goes


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## drew9242 (12/1/13)

Another trick I use when my temp overshot, was have some water and teaspoon nearby. When it's to high put a tiny bit of water in. Beware I start real small, it tends to hiss and splatter a bit. But it gets the temp back quickly.


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## AndrewQLD (12/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Cheer mate, thanks for the advice. Now I need to formulate a recipe. I'm going to weigh it when it's done, then just add it plus MO, no crystal, and see how it goes



Have a look here? these are pretty authentic British recipes.


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## mje1980 (12/1/13)

Cheers guys!, I'm done, was at temp around an hour, and looks golden syrup coloured, or slightly darker. I'll get into some kind of container then put in the fridge


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## tiprya (12/1/13)

Good tip for getting it out of the container when you want to brew: microwave.

That one took me a while to figure out.


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## hsb (12/1/13)

I made mine with syrupy consistency, poured into a $2 shop mason jar, stored in the fridge for a week, then added to primary on a dubbel 2/3 through. Just a little water from the kettle helped it all out easily enough, then lick the jar like a kid.
Came out very nice though a little sweet and definite hint of candy floss. It probably would have been much better for a month or two conditioning as is but i decided to secondary for a month with Orval dregs. A month later and it's delicious, really complex, best beer I've ever made and unique with the homemade ingredient. Yum. A bit of Brett with invert sugar = definite winner.


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## mje1980 (14/1/13)

Do you guys put it in at the end of the boil??


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## mje1980 (14/1/13)

I looked through my classic beer styles mild book, and a lot of the recipes are up around 15-20% sugars, so I'm going 19% in a mild . Just mashed in. I'm going to add it in at flameout. Mashed at 71 c for good body to offset so much sugar. Flying blind really, but kind of excited. Cool to get a double batch out of only 3.8 kg of MO!!!


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## adryargument (14/1/13)

Going by my recent attempts.
Raising to just under soft crack and keeping it there for 40 minutes then raising to hard crack = amber candi (Spot on in colour for my belg dubbel dubbel)
1:45 for dark candi - aint used it yet.

Edit: using 1:1 water/suger then bicarb soda as the acid at 1 teaspoon?? - check this


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## DUANNE (14/1/13)

adryargument said:


> Going by my recent attempts.
> Raising to just under soft crack and keeping it there for 40 minutes then raising to hard crack = amber candi (Spot on in colour for my belg dubbel dubbel)
> 1:45 for dark candi - aint used it yet.
> 
> Edit: using 1:1 water/suger then bicarb soda as the acid at 1 teaspoon?? - check this


bi carb is a base so no use at all as a replacement for acid of any kind


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## AndrewQLD (14/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Do you guys put it in at the end of the boil??


I always add mine at the beginning of the boil.


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## mje1980 (15/1/13)

Ah bugger. I figured more flavour would come at flameout. No big deal, I'm doing some Demerara at the moment, when I use it I'll throw it in at the start, I guess another 90 mins of boiling will caramelise even more!


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## mje1980 (15/1/13)

Got distracted and when I got back, the Demerara had hit 130. Thought it'd be burnt, but it tastes divine!!!!. Gas burners are a bitch to keep at a constant temp too!


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## Beerisyummy (16/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Got distracted and when I got back, the Demerara had hit 130. Thought it'd be burnt, but it tastes divine!!!!. Gas burners are a bitch to keep at a constant temp too!


This is when the portable induction cooker comes into its own with precise temperature control.
Set up on the coffee table with a cold beer, a glass of water for cooling and watch the news.
Just make sure your done before the missus comes home.


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## Batz (17/1/13)

My digital thermometer turned up today so I'm making some tonight of tomorrow. :beerbang: Keen like anything!

batz


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## mje1980 (20/1/13)

How'd it go batz ??. I am going to keg my mild with 19% invert tomorrow. Tasting nice, if a little light bodied haha. Even the uk ales that have low finishing gravities with invert seem to drink with more mouthfeel than the fg would suggest. Love to know how to nail that. Will update in a few days on taste etc.


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## Batz (20/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> How'd it go batz ??. I am going to keg my mild with 19% invert tomorrow. Tasting nice, if a little light bodied haha. Even the uk ales that have low finishing gravities with invert seem to drink with more mouthfeel than the fg would suggest. Love to know how to nail that. Will update in a few days on taste etc.


I going to have a go at making it tonight mje, I bought some blackstrap yesterday to get it dark. Order is in for some speciality grains and yeast that should arrive next week sometime, then I'm doing a Chimay Blue clone...recipe done already. :beer:
Keep us posted how your mild tastes.

Batz


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## GuyQLD (20/1/13)

Have you got the recipe handy Batz? I haven't been able to track down one I like the look of.


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## mje1980 (22/1/13)

Half carbed, but had a taste just now. Its very nice haha, compared to a standard mild ( i do lots ) the aroma seems more malty,and the body ,while light, doesn't feel too thin, considering this is just on 3%. In general, its drinking pretty nicely. I've cranked the gas up a little, and i'll compare it tonight with the other mild i have on tap. Im going to keep experimenting for sure. The batch of invert i have in the fridge was held at 116c for 2 hours, instead of one hour for this batch. Im going to try it in another mild i think.


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## Batz (22/1/13)

GuyQLD said:


> Have you got the recipe handy Batz? I haven't been able to track down one I like the look of.



Wait until I try it, it may not be any good. :unsure:


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## Mikedub (22/1/13)

need to add invert this week, my thermometer hasn't turned up and getting no response from seller,
some people have no consideration for digestible beer :angry:


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## Endo (23/1/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> It will be fine, it's very easy to overshoot the temp. As long as you get it back to around the correct temp for the majority of the cook you won't have any problems.



Thats not quite right. Depending on what you are trying to achieve flavour wise you will end up with different flavours. And if you are shooting for a dark candi syrup, then you will end up with something that leaves a nasty aftertaste in your beer if you go too far over. If you get it back quick enough I guess you will be ok.

I know, I did it  Still hoping it will mellow out with age, but will see how it goes.

I used the attached PDF and made the LIght Amber, which was awesome, and the Double Stage Deep Amber which ended up going a bit over and produced burnt weird flavours. I couldnt have gone over by much either 

Was trying to make a trappist rochefort 10 clone...

The PDF is based on the info from a podcast on Basic Brewing Radio: http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr05-07-09candi.mp3 from memory the dude was a candi maker.


A tip for anyone would be to boil water and ensure your candi thermometer is reading 100c. Accuracy is very important

Oh... and if you do brew with Candi... Try the wort warm... Delicious! 

View attachment Belgian Cani Sugar (Basic Brewing).pdf


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## mje1980 (23/1/13)

Cool little PDF there mate. Basically, the procedure you have says to heat to certain temp, then add water to drop again. Is that because doing that adds more flavour??. My mild is only half carbed, but I ended up sampling 5 or so pints last night. Very happy with it haha. Currently brewing a pale ale with some more.

Also, there is no mention of holding it for a set amount of time at temp. Do you need to?


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## Endo (23/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Cool little PDF there mate. Basically, the procedure you have says to heat to certain temp, then add water to drop again. Is that because doing that adds more flavour??. My mild is only half carbed, but I ended up sampling 5 or so pints last night. Very happy with it haha. Currently brewing a pale ale with some more.
> 
> Also, there is no mention of holding it for a set amount of time at temp. Do you need to?


The water cools the syrup back under the softball temperature so you dont end up with hard candy.

No need to hold, you will see the colour change as it heats up. The dude explains it all in radio interview in more detail.


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## mje1980 (23/1/13)

Could you hold it at the 240 ending temp for a while?. I just finished a batch, according to his double stage instructions. I halved the sugar and water amounts, and used citric acid, instead of dap. Sure tastes nice, but is more runny, and not as dark as my other batches, though I held them at 240 for one hour, and two hours for the two batches. I'm keen to brew with this batch though, it was much quicker and easier to make !


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## AndrewQLD (24/1/13)

Endo said:


> Thats not quite right. Depending on what you are trying to achieve flavour wise you will end up with different flavours. And if you are shooting for a dark candi syrup, then you will end up with something that leaves a nasty aftertaste in your beer if you go too far over. If you get it back quick enough I guess you will be ok.


I'm pretty sure that's what I said 
Also the OP is about making invert sugar syrup for English style ales not Belgian Candi sugar, two different things although the processes are similar, the PDF you posted is great(thanks for that) and I am curious to learn why Diamonium Phosphate (DAP) is being used, any ideas?


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## Howlingdog (24/1/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what I said
> Also the OP is about making invert sugar syrup for English style ales not Belgian Candi sugar, two different things although the processes are similar


I found that the "How To" article on the UK home Brew Forum on Candi syrup was very easy to follow as it has good pictures in each step showing the different colours obtained.

so id it's candi syrup your after this is worth a look. http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16473

HD


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## Endo (24/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Could you hold it at the 240 ending temp for a while?. I just finished a batch, according to his double stage instructions. I halved the sugar and water amounts, and used citric acid, instead of dap. Sure tastes nice, but is more runny, and not as dark as my other batches, though I held them at 240 for one hour, and two hours for the two batches. I'm keen to brew with this batch though, it was much quicker and easier to make !


If you have the ability to hold it accurately then I cannot see why not? I'm no expert though. It sounds like you nailed it, mine was very bitter for the dark one and I think I must not have brought it down far enough because it went quite hard.. The amber one... deliciousness but it was the consistency of maple syrup or honey.




AndrewQLD said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what I said
> Also the OP is about making invert sugar syrup for English style ales not Belgian Candi sugar, two different things although the processes are similar, the PDF you posted is great(thanks for that) and I am curious to learn why Diamonium Phosphate (DAP) is being used, any ideas?



Yeah i reread what you posted and agree I'm an idiot 

If i remember the podcast correctly, you just need an Acid to invert the sugar. He used DAP, and this is the bit im trying to remember correctly, because it was used as a yeast nutrient. I don't think it was a better reason then that. I did link to the podcase above if you want to listen to the guys reasoning.

As a general rule when I make something off a recipe, I like to make it exact the first time, and then see what tweaks I want to make to it afterwards. Which is why I went DAP over a different acid in this case. Although i still have 1.5 little bags of the stuff...


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## Batz (24/1/13)

This one's worth a look as well.

http://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/how-to-make-belgian-candi-sugar/


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## Jace89 (24/1/13)

I just listened to the podcast. The reasons he uses DAP was that he was finding the citric acid was starting burn at higher temps and producing astringency/bitter/tart flavors. He also found DAP would also create more interesting and complex flavors. 
After listening to the podcast it's sounds like the best way to make the sugar would be to 'double cook' it. This way you enhance the flavor and increase the color of the syrup without adding and burnt flavors. 
I've made DAP syrup myself and it farly simple, but this time in doing to cook it atleast twice if not three times.


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## Bribie G (24/1/13)

I bought a bottle of Wells Bombardier at Dan's (the recipe that kicked this thread off again, I guess) and the caramelly overtones were awesome, like something from Willy Wonka's factory - definitely getting a candy thermometer today.


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## mje1980 (24/1/13)

Bombardier is the beer I've got in mind for the syrup. Just such a yummy malty beer. I think I might do a combo next time, follow the candi sugar method ( double stage ), but when I hit the final 240f end temp, I'll keep it there for an hour. The keg of "invert mild", is shrinking rapidly. At 3%, with almost 20% invert syrup, it is bloody nice. In a bigger beer, at a smaller %age, I reckon it will work nicely. I have a pale ale with my 2 nd batch, which is darker, fermenting now. Looking forward to tasting.


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## adryargument (24/1/13)

Just kegged my Belgian dubbel dubbel.

Used 1KG of Amber in the recipe. (40 minutes at the darkening stage then ramped to hard break)

Beer turned out the perfect colour as per the beersmith calculations and very tasty.


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## Batz (25/1/13)

I found the cheap ebay therometer not much chop. The wife had a glass candy therometer that did the job well, the digital one had trouble with the read out when it became hot.

Batz


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## AndrewQLD (25/1/13)

Looks like it turned out well Batz.


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## Batz (25/1/13)

How long did you guys _cook_ your sugar for ?


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## mje1980 (25/1/13)

Batz said:


> How long did you guys _cook_ your sugar for ?


I held my last batch (invert method from the uk blog) at 116c for 2 hours. I used it in a pale ale fermenting now at 10% of the grist. Let you know if it tastes good. Can't see your pics, bloody smart phone


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## Batz (25/1/13)

I think I may need to put mine back on the stove for a hour or so.


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## mje1980 (25/1/13)

Also, my ebay digital thermo is sketchy too. I bought another one like your other one, much better. My 2 hour batch wasn't actually that much darker. One day when im bored im gunna try 3 hours haha.I think a combo of the double stage candi sugar method, but then holding the end temp ( same temp you hold it at for invert ) for two hours might work really well. All fun though, and the kids love me


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## felten (27/1/13)

Just made a batch of syrup follow along the lines of these 2 blogs. It's a different beast to the other sugars I've made with just an acid, or DAP+acid, which always come out very light and fruity.

http://nateobrew.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/candi-syrup-secrets-and-how-to-make.html

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

This one is way more complex, its dark and tastes like toasted marshmellow with maybe a little chocolate in there. It's still a little different than the commercial stuff I've tried before, but its a helluva lot closer than the previous versions I've made. It tastes great though, I've also eaten way too much of it, and burnt the crap out of my tongue several times so far.

My version was a little different than above, I followed the double cooked basic brewing radio version posted earlier in this thread. But added 3/4 tsp of sodium bicarbonate per pound of sugar, after 30 mins of boiling with the DAP in for some inversion.


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## mje1980 (27/1/13)

Pretty in depth methods there!. Handy references though. For now I'm gunna stick to a more simple method, but might work up the courage to do one of those methods. I do like the idea of more caramel toffee flavours. Mine taste like sweet toffee, but I'd like more toffee caramel.


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## CosmicBertie (29/1/13)

I made some on Sunday. 2Kg raw sugar from IGA ($2.95), 2L boiling water, and 5ml of Lactose Acid. Held at around 240F for 2 hours....the results were interesting. Very tasty caramel flavour, medium amber when dropped on a porclain saucer, but almost black in the glass storage dish. Once cooled, it didnt crystalise, but it has a very high viscocity. It wont pour easily when at room temperature, so warming up in the microwave for 5 mins will hopefully help.


It'll be going into the Bombardiar recipe which is floating around the forums at the mo. 

Oh, and the Candi (!) Syrup I got from G+G was $23 a Kilo. So 2K for $3 is a bonus.


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## Endo (30/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Also, my ebay digital thermo is sketchy too. I bought another one like your other one, much better. My 2 hour batch wasn't actually that much darker. One day when im bored im gunna try 3 hours haha.I think a combo of the double stage candi sugar method, but then holding the end temp ( same temp you hold it at for invert ) for two hours might work really well. All fun though, and the kids love me


From what I remember, its the temperature you get the sugar too, not the length of time, that will give you colour and flavour.

Holding it, I guess, would ensure all the the sugar crystals get processed? Not sure with the hold the method.


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## CosmicBertie (30/1/13)

Endo said:


> From what I remember, its the temperature you get the sugar too, not the length of time, that will give you colour and flavour.
> 
> Holding it, I guess, would ensure all the the sugar crystals get processed? Not sure with the hold the method.


Mine changed colour the longer I left it. From yellow (30 mins), to amber (80 mins), to dark amber. (120 mins)


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## Beerisyummy (30/1/13)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> Mine changed colour the longer I left it. From yellow (30 mins), to amber (80 mins), to dark amber. (120 mins)


I'm inclined to agree that all chemical reactions are a function of time as well as temperature. It's the balancing act that you can manage best that will give you consistent results.
The hardest part for me was trying to pay attention to a thermometer for over an hour. It only takes a few seconds to overheat and there are thousands of the little bastards.


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## doon (30/1/13)

So I just winged this without a thermometer as I was bored and wanted to do something. Turned out pretty good nice dark amber colour with toffee and raisin flavours.

Hopefully makes my next beer taste amazing


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## CosmicBertie (31/1/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> I'm inclined to agree that all chemical reactions are a function of time as well as temperature. It's the balancing act that you can manage best that will give you consistent results.
> The hardest part for me was trying to pay attention to a thermometer for over an hour. It only takes a few seconds to overheat and there are thousands of the little bastards.


I think the trick is to make a larger batch as opposed to a small one. I used 2Kg of raw sugar and found that once it was upto 240F then it pretty much stayed there with the flame on *really* low.


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## doon (1/2/13)

how much should i chuck into a brew with a 5kg grain bill? what would be overkill


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## Mikedub (1/2/13)

Doon, from recipes I've looked up, invert can be used up to 18%, though that tends to be big-arsed beers, average use for dubbles seems to be around 11%, though assuming you are looking at an OG of around 1050, probably not as high as that, lots of variables, I'd suggest map out what style you are aiming for first


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## Nick JD (1/2/13)

Hours? Use less water. It can be done if you're brave with _no_ water.

I might do a thread on making it without it taking hours. If you're brave, it takes 15 minutes to get really dark caramelisation.

Here's a 30 minute version. Note the 3:1 water ratio. I see some are using 1:1 - which means a lot of boiling off of water before any caramelisation can happen.


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## mje1980 (1/2/13)

I'm drinking a 3% mild with 19% invert. It's thin bodied, but is very nice. I have the classic beer styles mild book, which lists more than a few commercial milds with 15-20 % invert. I just added 9% to a pale ale, which Is drinking nicely. Up to you how much you add really.


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## mje1980 (1/2/13)

Nick JD said:


> Hours? Use less water. It can be done if you're brave with _no_ water.
> 
> I might do a thread on making it without it taking hours. If you're brave, it takes 15 minutes to get really dark caramelisation.
> 
> Here's a 30 minute version. Note the 3:1 water ratio. I see some are using 1:1 - which means a lot of boiling off of water before any caramelisation can happen.



Love to see the thread nick.


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## doon (1/2/13)

i made mine in around 30 mins i reckon. Its looking really dark in the jar


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## doon (1/2/13)

what i did when finished is start adding small amounts of water back in so it wont set. Been in fridge now for few days and its still got consistency of slightly warm honey


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## Beerisyummy (1/2/13)

Nick JD said:


> Hours? Use less water. It can be done if you're brave with _no_ water.
> 
> I might do a thread on making it without it taking hours. If you're brave, it takes 15 minutes to get really dark caramelisation.


I tried it without any water and found it too hard to control the temps. I'm sure it can be done but I imagine it would be a fine art, best left to the experts in my case.
I agree totally about the water ratios. I'd be lucky if the batch I made had 3:1.
After an hour of splashing the odd bit of water in to bring the temps down, I ended up with some seriously dark syrup. No burnt flavours like the frirst batch without water. 
Next time I make some I'll be trying to reduce the time with higher temperatures. (I'd already had a crack before I noticed this thread so I was just winging it anyway).
Thanks for all the interesting links everyone. It's good to have something else to do while the fermenters are all full.


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## TidalPete (5/2/13)

I've been checking this thread out for a while now & what with all the showers around today decided to give it a go.
Was divided between the invert temps in Andrew's link(115 deg c Barclay Perkins) & http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16473 (125 to 135 deg c Belgian candi) so more or less split the difference to hopefully speed things up by using a higher temp.

Used 2.00 kg raw sugar in 2.00 litres boiling water, added 5ml phos & raised to 126 deg c then sat until I got the approx colour wanted (90 minutes).

Temp flunctuated 1 deg up & down several times for 30 seconds or so but all in all turned out rather well I think.
The result is over 2.25 litres of candi with loads of caramel & of a medium amber hue with the consistency of runny honey. Too runny??????

One thing learned today was to add less water to avoid a long wait to invert temp.
Still working out my Dubbel recipe but in no hurry ATM.


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## Mikedub (14/2/13)

Had a crack at making invert for a Belgian Strong, 3 cups water, 1.5kg raw sugar and 3 tsp. Dap , the flavours changing as the temps slowly rose to 290f were amazing, my cheap digital thermometer turned itself of a couple of times but didn’t really hamper things too much, it was fun to make, lotsa dark fruit and some coffee flavours after 40 min, some bitterness in the syrup which makes me think I didnt get it quite right, though cant pick it up after adding to primary a couple of weeks ago, just tipped below 1.018, come on baby, just another few points down


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## Beerisyummy (27/3/13)

I recently cracked open several of the dark Belgians I had made using invert sugar.
Very Tasty indeed.

My findings where, that the caramelised syrup, pretty much tastes like caramelised syrup. I'll be buying some dark candi syrup to compare.


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## Bribie G (1/4/16)

Bump

With the release of "Bronzed Brews" I'll be making some inverts to try in a couple of the old time recipes, also I got some Calcium Lactate from Brewman for other purposes and discover that it's best used for buffering purposes with Lactic Acid.

Thus I need Lactic Acid.

Found out today that Craftbrewer sell it but not on their website, picking some up tomorrow.


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## Adr_0 (1/4/16)

I found a great way to heat clear/golden syrups is in the oven, with temp just short of 100°C.

Amino acids from bulk nutrients stores are probably your best bet. I did a great clear with alanine and a touch of citric acid, which came out well and truly inverted after sitting in the oven for an hour or two. Flavour is lemon, grape, honey, very sweet and stays runny liquid - ie properly inverted. 

I don't really have the inclination to try darker syrups though. I do have some leucine/isoleucine in the pantry but I have CSI syrups that will do a far better job.


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## Brewman_ (1/4/16)

Bribie G said:


> Bump
> 
> With the release of "Bronzed Brews" I'll be making some inverts to try in a couple of the old time recipes, also I got some Calcium Lactate from Brewman for other purposes and discover that it's best used for buffering purposes with Lactic Acid.
> 
> Thus I need Lactic Acid.


Hey Bribie,

You're quite correct. I offer both the Lactic Acid and Calcium Lactate for that very reason. And other reasons that they stand alone for their own purpose.

Cheers Steve


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## Bribie G (1/4/16)

Hi Steve, sorry mate, I must have missed the LA on your site but I'm heading up to Craftbrewer tomorrow to pick up a new KegMate so I rang ahead, it's not on their site but Anthony sorted a bottle out for me.

I used the Calcium Lactate I got off you by incorporating some acidulated malt in the last mash, interested to see how it turned out.


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## Jack of all biers (3/4/16)

Bribie, thanks for bringing this topic back to life. I saw it last night and had never thought of adding sugar to my brews (if the recipe calls for it I have always left it out), but I was so enthused that I made my first invert syrup last night after reading all the attached methods. I went with what was in the pantry (500gm mixed raw sugar/demerara, cream of tartar, a touch of lime juice and some delicious blackstrap molasis to finish, adding colour and flavour for my next stout. The colour is black and the taste is sweet liquorice caramel. I can't wait to brew it.


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## Randai (4/4/16)

I ended up doing two batches of invert for recipes from Bronzed Brews, one for the 1917 Resches XXX and another for the 1920 Resches Extra Stout.

So the XXX has been kegged and considering it had no specialty malt in it, it really does give a sort of caramelly something to it, though this could be also that the XXX finished high at around 1.015, which is making that sort of sweetness come out, but does remind of toffee.

What I've learned is that the candy thermometer is the way to go since trying to take temps would be a pain without watching it go up, also I've been using citric acid as per the wikipedia page, but when I follow the amount they list for 1kg sugar, they say like a gram, I found this to be insufficient, while my first batch did definitely partially invert, it didn't fully, was quite thick.

The second batch I decided to go for invert no 3, even though the recipe in Bronzed Brews calls for only Invert no 1. But I wanted to see how it'd progress, yeah quite complex. Though I went too far in the other direction with the citric, so 1 teaspoon per 500 grams is too much, you can definitely taste it. But it really does have a slightly roasted flavour to the sugar, and it was super dark.

Not sure if people would get the same flavours if you put molasses in there, I just don't think it'd be the same as just doing the whole batch as invert. But as I haven't compared side by side, it might be and I am mis-remembering what molasses tastes like.


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