# Late Hopping And Nochilling It Can Be Done!



## argon (22/11/10)

Typically when I NoChill I calculate all hop additions as plus 15 minutes.

But the one thing that NoChilling doesnt allow me to do, is add those really late kettle hops to get that big flavour and aroma I would normally get from a 10min, 5min, 0min addition that was rapid chilled. 

Now, I have come up with a way to add these late hop additions and still NoChill, that is no harder than making a yeast starter.

To qualifyI have used a French Press in the past, but it can be a real pain using pellet hops, as they swell up so much. In my opinion French Press is most effective using plugs or flowers.

Now I recently cubed a Black IPA, where I did my usual hop additions with the intention of adding 15 minutes to each hop addition, then cubed as normal.

When it came to pitching time I changed things up a bit because I wanted more late hop presence and wasnt keen on using the French Press.
The process that I went through was like this;

Firstly I put the 17L cube in the fridge overnight to drop the temperature down to 4C
I then boiled up 3L of some more wort at 1040 (3L and 300g LDME)
I boiled this for 15 minutes adding a 10 min hop addition, a 5 minute hop addition and took it off the stove
I then took the 3L in the stock pot to the fermenter and set it aside
I added the 17L of 4C wort to the fermenter (I always pour through a 500micron hopsock to filter out a bit of debris from the cube)
I then added a 0min addition of hops to the 3L of near boiling wort
Then almost immediately say 10 to 20 seconds later poured the 3L into the 17L of wort through the hopsock filtering out all the hop debris
Gave the fermenter a bit of shake/stir to make sure it was all mixed up
Now I had 20L of 18C wort in the fermenter all aerated and ready to pitch
I then threw my 1L of active starter on top
This gave me 21L of 1072 wort ready to go into the fermenting fridge at 18C
Glad wrap on, attach the temp probe (confirmed 18C), shut the door and walk away.

So I figure that this process is rapid chilling for the late hop additions. As soon as the hot wort integrates with the cold wort it all comes in at the right pitching temp for my yeast of 18C. Its important to note and calculate that; 17L @ 4C + 3L @ 90C = 20L @ 18C 

Sweet now I can no chill and enjoy late kettle hop flavours and aromas.

Ill report back on how that all turns out as its now a few days fermenting with a nice healthy Krausen that took off within 12 hours and smelling nice.

:icon_cheers:


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## MarkBastard (22/11/10)

Great idea mate. Even better if you say did a double batch pale ale with only the bittering hops and a generic base and then you can split that into two batches with different late hops when fermenting.

Because you only need 34 litres of wort to do this double batch, it may be possible for people with smaller pots to pump it out, making it even nicer.

One problem though of course is that you're using a fair amount of malt extract which may go against an AG ethos.

Could always buy some 3L 'cubes' and make up heaps of base malt 1.040 wort in a batch with no hop additions and store in these 3L cubes for later use, to keep it AG if you care enough.


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## Phoney (22/11/10)

That would work so far as adding your late hop additions, but with that much stuffing I reckon it would be easier and quicker to chill it properly, to be honest..  Not to mention you now have 17L of wort from your desired grain bill + 4L of LDME & water. How is that going to affect your malt profile?


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## argon (22/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Great idea mate. Even better if you say did a double batch pale ale with only the bittering hops and a generic base and then you can split that into two batches with different late hops when fermenting.
> 
> Because you only need 34 litres of wort to do this double batch, it may be possible for people with smaller pots to pump it out, making it even nicer.
> 
> ...




Yep i always do double batches... 2 times 17L cubes (old FWKs) then top up into fermenter with starter to 21L.

The point of this exercise here for me is 2 fold. 1 to see if i do get a significant increase in late hop flavour and aroma. And 2 to see if i like the result and adjust as necessary on the next batch.

Not a bad idea re cubing a small amount that can be re-boiled for the late hopping. I figure, at least for this batch, cause it's supposed to be 1072OG that the extra LDME won't make much difference.


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## Bribie G (22/11/10)

Not sure about the LDME which could undermine the basic grain component of the brew, but do you reckon it would work with the 300g or so of da sugaz I often add to UK type special bitters? Lately I have been adding the sugar to the cube to give it a good scalding so your method seems equivalent?


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## MarkBastard (22/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Not sure about the LDME which could undermine the basic grain component of the brew, but do you reckon it would work with the 300g or so of da sugaz I often add to UK type special bitters? Lately I have been adding the sugar to the cube to give it a good scalding so your method seems equivalent?



Don't "they" recommend not boiling hops with sugar though? From what I understand it's ideally 1.040 of malt sugarz not table sugar.


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## Bribie G (22/11/10)

Do the hops know the difference, little green whores that they are ? B)


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## felten (22/11/10)

the lower pH from malt helps with extraction IIRC


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## argon (22/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Not sure about the LDME which could undermine the basic grain component of the brew, but do you reckon it would work with the 300g or so of da sugaz I often add to UK type special bitters? Lately I have been adding the sugar to the cube to give it a good scalding so your method seems equivalent?




Sounds like next experiment i will be running off 3L of wort for boiling up and adding late hops.

I guess also... i added 3L of 1040... doesn't mean that 3L is the set amount. 500ml or 1L would still be enough to add some late hops.. just for me i need 3L for the volume and the fact i added 135g worth of hops in the last 10mins.

Maybe next time i'll be doing it with a much smaller amount.


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## bum (22/11/10)

For what it is worth, cube hops leave stacks of aroma (YMMV).


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## Acasta (22/11/10)

What about, doing the same thing, but instead of boiling hops in LDME, just draw off your 3L of wort and boil hops in that with the same process?
Thanks what i've been doing.


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## argon (22/11/10)

Acasta said:


> What about, doing the same thing, but instead of boiling hops in LDME, just draw off your 3L of wort and boil hops in that with the same process?
> Thanks what i've been doing.




Yep nothing wrong with that... probably the ideal solution IMO. Just have to "cube" that 3L until it's ready for pitching with the rest of the batch


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## black_labb (22/11/10)

I feel that the cube hops add alot of aroma, but its not the only way.

you can cube the full amount and then pitch most into the fermentor and keep a couple litres to boil up with these additions, cool (a pot in the sink) and then add it to the vessel. I dont strain it as it all settles out but feel free to if you like. just remember to sanitise the strainer/hopsock whatever thoroughly. thats just a variation on youre method but it works the same. I've done mini boils to add hops like a hop tea the same way as you mention, and even did a mini mash and boil when I wanted to add to the profile of a beer when it fermented down to a lower fg than i wanted.


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## ekul (22/11/10)

I reckon this would be easier.

Chill cube (i use 23L ones)
Pour out 4L into boiling pot.
Seal cube (obviously)

Bring wort to the boil and do hop additions
Pour cube into fermenter ~20L
Pour hot wort into fermeter ~ 3L

Pitch yeast and away you go.

No malt extract and your cold wort has only been sitting around for 15mins or so without yeast. The infection probablilty is nothing compared to chilling wort for 30-40mins and pitching yeast 

Although i've just tried cube hopping and that does give a fair bit of flavour and aroma, and if you add a little dry hop you are rockin :super:


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## Acasta (22/11/10)

argon said:


> Yep nothing wrong with that... probably the ideal solution IMO. Just have to "cube" that 3L until it's ready for pitching with the rest of the batch


Well, you could cube it with the whole batch then pour off 3L for boiling. I use a ice bath when i do it, but if you wanna use your (smarter) method of varying temps it'd work better. Im going to try this soon.


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## Hatchy (22/11/10)

Has anyone used a pitch addition of hops? I'm thinking about throwing in my aroma hops when I pitch rather than putting them in the cube. I'm thinking (purely theoretical, no science to back this up) that the ferment will get rid of some of the grassiness that I sometimes get from dry hops but will not contribute any bitterness. I'm happy to be wrong if someone's tried it & it sucks. I'm happy to try it if no one else has.

I'd also like to try Argon's method. I'm not too worried about using a bit of extract, I still use it for starters & a little bit of extract for a late hop addition doesn't seem to be too much different to me.


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## Thirsty Boy (23/11/10)

if you'd like to combine this technique with a way to up your brewhouse efficiency (depending on how you brew in the first place i guess) you could try using wort recovered from your kettle trub.

Fill cube as normal with clean clear wort, seal and set aside to cool.
Take what you have left in your kettle and tip it into a a big funnel lined with calico or as i do, a tea towel. it will run cloudy for a little bit, then slow down and clear up to very bright - Recirc the cloudy initial runnings back into the funnel. Now you should be collecting nothing but very clear wort... but you will be collecting it very very slowly.

Walk away for a few hours or overnight. At any rate, by the time your cube is cool... you will have collected an amount of clean, clear wort that is not only exactly the same as your main wort - but is a bonus to your efficiency as it would normally have gone down the drain.

Boil your hops up in that stuff. the boil will take care of any bugs which have started to get hold during the long filtering process. Taste first of course to make sure nothing drastic has happened.

i was doing this regularly to use as starter wort... but since i changed my kettle configuration I dont have enough loss to trub to collect a useful amount any more. if you do - then this is a way to use it and also try out this method of getting some hop character into your beer.

this technique is exactly the same as coffee plunger hopping if you think about it... you are just using a hop bag instead of the French Press. Aside from that its exactly the same... and we know that coffee plunger hopping works. So this will too. you would get a bit more bang for buck if you could convince yourself to add the hops later on in the ferment after things had slowed down a little bit.

TB


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## [email protected] (23/11/10)

Following through on what TB says about collecting from the trub, has anyone frozen the collected wort as a way of preserving to use at a later date? And if so how long do they last? This maybe an option for people who are trying to preserve the 2-3L for doing the late additions boil without having to "cube" this small sample etc.

I would like to do the same for starter wort but only brew every 4-6 weeks and would need to store for a reasonable period.

Maybe let the 2-3L sample cool and place in a sanitised fruit/soft drink PET bottle and put in the freezer then defrost when you need to pitch?


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## beerdrinkingbob (23/11/10)

abc said:


> Following through on what TB says about collecting from the trub, has anyone frozen the collected wort as a way of preserving to use at a later date? And if so how long do they last? This maybe an option for people who are trying to preserve the 2-3L for doing the late additions boil without having to "cube" this small sample etc.
> 
> I would like to do the same for starter wort but only brew every 4-6 weeks and would need to store for a reasonable period.
> 
> Maybe let the 2-3L sample cool and place in a sanitised fruit/soft drink PET bottle and put in the freezer then defrost when you need to pitch?



I no chill the trub wort once filtered, basically reboil the wort and fill the glass 375ml bottles right to the brim, normally sucks it back about a centimeter down the bottle neck, no issues with breakages or infection to date. Although I'm always a little nervous as they cool, normally leave them in a empty sink just in case they break


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## Dazza_devil (23/11/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Walk away for a few hours or overnight. At any rate, by the time your cube is cool... you will have collected an amount of clean, clear wort that is not only exactly the same as your main wort - but is a bonus to your efficiency as it would normally have gone down the drain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The kettle trub may settle out in a sealed container in the fridge just as quick as you could strain it, depending on your method, and just decant it maybe, just a thought.

Off topic, how did you manage to minimise your kettle trub by changing your kettle configuration?


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## Bribie G (23/11/10)

Slightly OT, I cube hopped for the first time a couple of days ago and on pouring cube into fermenter (EKG) the aroma was sensational. Next time I'll up the recipe by a few percent and collect a couple of 1L Schott bottles extra of wort and also do the late hop thing with that.


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## argon (23/11/10)

The biggest thing for me with the process was working out that the small addition of very hot water to a large addition of very colder water ended up at the correct temp for pitching.

In the original instance the the extract equates to around 3% of the overall fermentables so it didn't bother me too much to be adding it in. However i can understand that alot don't want to be adding extract to their all grain wort. Especially when it may represent a large proportion.

The idea of taking a couple of litres from the cube for re boiling is appealing to me because it's the same wort composition. On one hand there is a risk of exposing the cube to nasties once opened, albeit only around 30mins. But on the other the wort will be at 4C (cause you've chilled it) and this will inhibit bacteria taking hold.

So on the second cube of the IPA i'll try this out. That is; taking some wort, boiling it with some more hops, then mixing it in the fermenter with the chilled wort... all in order to bring to 18C before adding the starter.

This will achieve 3 things;
1. Adding the late hop flavours and aromas
2. Maintaining the correct wort composition
3. Minimising extract as part of the fermentables in the batch

As i'll be adding Hot 3L to Cold 14L... obviously, i'll have to adjust the calculations to suit the overall temperature target. But in this case i'll just do a top up with pre boiled water at 4C to achieve correct volume, gravity and temp.


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## argon (23/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Slightly OT, I cube hopped for the first time a couple of days ago and on pouring cube into fermenter (EKG) the aroma was sensational. Next time I'll up the recipe by a few percent and collect a couple of 1L Schott bottles extra of wort and also do the late hop thing with that.




That was my second thought... just up the volume collected from the kettle and set aside to be doing the late hop boils. Probably what i'l be doing from now on when i want late kettle hop profile.

And FWIW, i almost always cube hop and get great aroma and flavour... just wondering if there is something else that i may be missing out on.


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## Bribie G (23/11/10)

Argon, off topic but I thought you had gone onto 50L batches? Did you trot the baggie out for this experiment ?


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## argon (23/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Argon, off topic but I thought you had gone onto 50L batches? Did you trot the baggie out for this experiment ?



Nope still got he bag hung up next to the little idol Pat... hasn't been used in a while. I will use it as a safety bag when i do a +50% Wheatie or big % Rye beer.

I do 42L batches. I only have a 50L kettle and calculate a 42L start of boil with a 37L end of boil volume losing 3L to kettle trub. So, that is 2 x 17L cubes with a 3L water top up into fermenter for each and and 1L starter. Gives me 21L into 1 a fermenter 2 times. Losing 2L to the fermenter trub = 19L into keg 2 times.  

I've just bought a couple of full size cubes and will be adding the top up water at cubing. It's a limitation due to my kettle size, but i've found that it's a fairly simple process to accommodate. 

And there's not much better than blowing a keg of beer, then immediately changing over to a keg of the same variety that has had extended cold conditioning time. :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (23/11/10)

WAAAAY off topic, yes I'm going to do my double batch = triple keg overgravity experiment this week when the goods arrive from Ross, and actually the late hopping idea will fit in perfectly to prevent dumbing down the flavours after dilution. B)


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## argon (23/11/10)

BribieG said:


> WAAAAY off topic, yes I'm going to do my double batch = triple keg overgravity experiment this week when the goods arrive from Ross, and actually the late hopping idea will fit in perfectly to prevent dumbing down the flavours after dilution. B)




Off topic... who cares?

I'm thinkng of doing the triple batch thing too... a huge batch of BoPils... 

when i listened to the Brewing network on over gravity fermentation they suggested that top-ups post fermentation at packaging were best for lagers due to their clean nature as it won't necessarily have an adverse affect on esters etc. (kinda what the big boys in the states do.) For all my ales i do the top-up pre-ferment.

to keep it on topic.... "late hopping"


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## Thirsty Boy (24/11/10)

Boagsy said:


> The kettle trub may settle out in a sealed container in the fridge just as quick as you could strain it, depending on your method, and just decant it maybe, just a thought.
> 
> Off topic, how did you manage to minimise your kettle trub by changing your kettle configuration?



seeing as this thread is well off topic now anyway...


I suppose it wasn't all kettle configuration. Changed from a keggle to a 60L flat bottomed pot, a whirlpool seems t work properly in this pot and it never really did in the keggle.

changed pickup tube so that its opening sits flatter on the bottom of the pot, which seems to draw the current more evenly and stops any streams of fast flow pulling the trub cone to bits 

learned to slow the run-off right down once the top of the trub cone breaks the liquid surface to allow the liquid to drain from it without pulling it to bits

reduced my kettle finings use a bit which made for a more stable trub cone.

in the keggle the volume of my trub (hops, break and liquid all together) was 2-2.5L, now its down to about 0.5-1L


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## cdbrown (24/11/10)

I've seen on HBT that a few have been doing FWH for the normal 10/15m additions. Anybody tried this?

I'm planning two double batches of SNPA and LCPA clone for the summer and of course no chilling the lot. At this stage I'll be moving the 20min to 10, 10 to flame out and anything less to the cube. When it comes to brewing these again I'll try a french press and then perhaps a FWH just to see what works best.


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## davo4772 (24/11/10)

Hello All,

How does it work as far as hop utilisation with throwing the aroma hops into 4L of wort.

Would more hops have to be used in that relatively small amount of wort?

Seems like a good idea, had good results when I used to use fresh wort kits. Same concept as far as I can see.

Cheers


David


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## argon (24/11/10)

david72 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> How does it work as far as hop utilisation with throwing the aroma hops into 4L of wort.
> 
> ...



Shouldn't be any problems with adding hops to a small boil. The utilisation of course will be dependent on the gravity of your wort... with 1040OG being optimum IIRC


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## Guysmiley54 (24/11/10)

Newb question...

What is FWH?

(sorry h34r: )


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## cdbrown (24/11/10)

First Wort Hop - basically before you strain draining the first runnings from the mash to the kettle you chuck in the FWH into the kettle. It apparently brings out a different dimension aroma and bitterness of the hops.

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/t...ing-techniques/


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## felten (24/11/10)

first wort hopping 


too slow


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## Guysmiley54 (24/11/10)

That's actually what I thought it might have meant... I am still a little confused though, how would FWH replace a 10 or 15 minute addition? Surely this addition would go through a full boil and lose all aroma and gain maximum isomerization?


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## argon (7/12/10)

Kegged my BIPA last night and the late hop presence i got from this far exceeds any beer I've done in the past... Got bucket loads of fruity, flowery, Cascade and Centennial with a subtle grassy character and firm grapefruit bitterness coming from the Chinook. Bigger and fuller than I've ever been able to achieve just through no chill and cube hopping.

Hopefully it's because of the mini-boil process. I'll reserve final judgement until carbing and conditioning, but at this stage, I'll be definitely doing this again for future heavy hop styles


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## MarkBastard (7/12/10)

I'm 50/50 about giving this a go. I'm spewing I threw out a couple of 17L FWK cubes I had laying around.

I'm thinking maybe I could do a 20L batch, fill up 17L into a cube and squeeze the air out as usual then take 1L into a jar and put aside to use as a starter, then with the remaining 2 litres put aside for the hop boil.

Would require 1L and 2L 'jars' of course.

Also probably need to factor in loss to hop absorption so maybe make 21L batch and have 3L for the hop boil.

Seems easy enough. Only issue would be dealing with trub in the kettle. Is there definitely no way to filter trub out other than flowers? God I'd love to be able to leave behind hot break and run off as much wort as possible. I'm tight like that.


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## argon (7/12/10)

MB the method of doing it with the original wort is the way to go IMO. Thereby conserving the original profile. A schott bottle or similar would be fine i guess. Just need to keep the small volume to the side while the large volume cools to the target temp... something like a small NC cube.


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## peted27 (7/12/10)

bum said:


> For what it is worth, cube hops leave stacks of aroma (YMMV).



+1

I'll stick to cube hopping. While i think this is a good idea, just adds to the complexity. The results i'm getting from adjusting bittering addition times by 15min and moving 10min-0min additions to a single cube addition is not worth the change.


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## MarkBastard (7/12/10)

I find cube hopping to be a flavour addition. I get SFA aroma from it, but then again cube hopping + dry hopping in the keg is an okay compromise at the moment.

But if I doubt I'd be able to make something like a fresh stone & wood draught ale using this method.


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## [email protected] (7/12/10)

argon said:


> MB the method of doing it with the original wort is the way to go IMO. Thereby conserving the original profile. A schott bottle or similar would be fine i guess. Just need to keep the small volume to the side while the large volume cools to the target temp... something like a small NC cube.



Argon,

Could you not simply cool the whole cube (23L) to 4 C as per your method, then when you add the wort to the fermenter take 3L from the fermenter tap (or directly poured from cube) and raise this to the boil, add hops and add to fermenter to get fermentation temperatures. Why do you need to keep a separate sample?

I generally air rate with an aquarium pump which takes an hour and figure you could do the aroma hop while this is going on.


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## argon (7/12/10)

abc said:


> Argon,
> 
> Could you not simply cool the whole cube (23L) to 4 C as per your method, then when you add the wort to the fermenter take 3L from the fermenter tap (or directly poured from cube) and raise this to the boil, add hops and add to fermenter to get fermentation temperatures. Why do you need to keep a separate sample?
> 
> I generally air rate with an aquarium pump which takes an hour and figure you could do the aroma hop while this is going on.




Yep i reckon this could be done easily enough... just for me I've always been of the opinion that i want to get the active yeast into the wort as soon as possible after opening the cube... but i guess 20-30 mins even and hour isn't too bad.


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## [email protected] (7/12/10)

Yes, I was of the same opinion to get the yeast into the wort as soon as possible but then heard a talk from Chris White saying that you should pitch the yeast after your aeration is complete for optimum fermentation. Can't remember what he said the consequences were by pitching before you started aeration.


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## MarkBastard (7/12/10)

What if your aeration technique is to just pour the cube into the fermenter?

Judging by the froth I reckon that works just fine.

Understood though if you ferment in the cube or carefully rack from cube to fermenter.


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## Thirsty Boy (7/12/10)

argon said:


> Yep i reckon this could be done easily enough... just for me I've always been of the opinion that i want to get the active yeast into the wort as soon as possible after opening the cube... but i guess 20-30 mins even and hour isn't too bad.



Remember that in your case, the cube is at 4C - not a lot of infection action going to happen at that temperature. Your fridge would be a lousy place to keep food if there was.

I'd think about taking a few liters from your cooled cube, raising to boiling for your hopping routine, and taking the opportunity of a few liters of space in your cube to shake the shit out of it... The cold wort will absorb a lot more oxygen than the warmer wort... You will be at room pressure saturation point after you put the warm wort back in... So as good as you could possibly get really.


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## argon (7/12/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Remember that in your case, the cube is at 4C - not a lot of infection action going to happen at that temperature. Your fridge would be a lousy place to keep food if there was.
> 
> I'd think about taking a few liters from your cooled cube, raising to boiling for your hopping routine, and taking the opportunity of a few liters of space in your cube to shake the shit out of it... The cold wort will absorb a lot more oxygen than the warmer wort... You will be at room pressure saturation point after you put the warm wort back in... So as good as you could possibly get really.



Good point TB... at 4C nasties would be inhibited quite nicely. Then adding the boiling portion to the cool portion brings it up to correct pitching temp... in goes the yeast, beautiful!

I'll do this soon for the second half of the BIPA i have cubed. Added bonus of not adding extract too.


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## insane_rosenberg (4/1/11)

Used this process for two batches in a row now and thought it was safe to report back on.

The process as I did it:
1. Boil wort with bittering hops (+15 mins if traditional chiller recipe)
2. Cube as usual
3. Once down to room-ish temperature place cube in the fridge (I use a jerry can so it fits nicely)
4. When cube properly chilled (4 C), syphon ~4L into a large pot (or your urn/kettle if SWMBO doesn't like your aromas)
5. Syphon the rest of the cube into the fermenter and cling wrap
6. Boil the small portion with the flavour and aroma hops at the usual intervals
7. Strain into the fermenter, stir vigourously, pitch yeast

Key points:
* Make sure you can agitate your wort after adding the boiled portion. Both times I have experienced severe temperature layering, with the posibility of the hot wort being detrimental to your yeast.

Tasting:
Tastes pretty good. Only tasted the first batch which was Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale II. I have read that this beer (and Amarillo in general) does not handle no-chilling very well. But this process yields a good result with no off flavours. Thanks for sharing the idea Argon!


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## davelovesbeer (6/1/11)

off topic, but any reason why you cool the cube to 4c instead of say 20c?


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## peted27 (6/1/11)

davelovesbeer said:


> off topic, but any reason why you cool the cube to 4c instead of say 20c?




so when he adds the 3L back in at boiling, it equalises at pitching temps. or there abouts


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## argon (7/1/11)

Yep precisely... Chilling the 17L to 4C then adding the 3L of boiling liquid brings it to 18C = pitchng temp. Also adding the hot hop tea to a cool body of wort ceases the utilization immediately and locks in the flavour and aroma. If I chilled only to 20c then added the boiling fraction it would be way too hit to pitch the yeast.

The black ipa I first did this on is incredible. I honestly just hold the pint under my nose just breathing in the aroma in between sips.... Soooo good.


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## Bribie G (8/2/11)

Bump 

Argon
In light of the other similar thread that has been started, how did you eventually go with your experiment?
In the meantime I have been cube hopping most of my brews where aroma required (e.g. APAs ) and getting good results, haven't used the French Press for yonks. 

:icon_cheers:


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## argon (8/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Bump
> 
> Argon
> In light of the other similar thread that has been started, how did you eventually go with your experiment?
> ...



I first did it on the Black IPA tasting notes here

It came out with the biggest aroma i've ever experienced. I cube hop most of my beers and get pretty good results... but it certainly was a big difference in this one. (saying that, i did cube hop with 60g of Cascade/Chinook/Centennial mix so it was going to be good anyway)

The second cube of the BIPA is on tap now. I French pressed this one with 60g NZ Cascade and 30g Chinook pellets after i crash chilled. It doesn't quite have the big aroma of the first half but still very good. 

I've since French pressed 2 other beers and they came out with some good aroma... but not quite as big as a small boil added to chilled wort.

I think for future brews, if i have pellets i'll do a hop boil. If i have flowers or plugs i'll do a French press. After all one of the aims of the experiment was to rapidly chill the hop compounds to lock in as much aroma as possible. I think i've definitely achieved that, through both the hop boil and the french press.


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## big78sam (4/3/11)

I tried this myself but had a brain fade. So don't do this...

I had a starter that had fully fermented out so I poured off all the liquid leaving just the trub. I boiled 2L of wort from the cube with the hops for my late additions. Then poured the hot wort in to the fermenter first and started to add the cold. Half way through I realised I'd need to add some wort to my starter to get the yeast out of the PET bottle. So I added wort from the cube that was at 11 degrees, then realised that the cold wort would shock the yeast. I quickly shook it up and pitched into the fermenter. On doing this I realised that the wort in the fermenter would be too hot as I hadn't added all the cold wort to get it down to 18. So quickly poured in the rest of the wort. 

Hopefully I haven't affected the yeast too much with a big cold shock followed by a warm shock. It bubbled away slowly for a few days but has stopped now. I'll have to take an SG reading and see where I'm at. What I should have done was mixed the wort fully then taking some 18 degree wort into the PET from the tap then pitched. Hopefully it will turn out OK in the end.


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## Bribie G (4/3/11)

Sounds like the sort of thing I'd do  
Last night I put my first batch using the argon method into CC - an APA with late Cascade, and it smells like the Sierra Nevada factory on a busy day :icon_drool2:


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## wrath (4/3/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> What if your aeration technique is to just pour the cube into the fermenter?
> 
> Judging by the froth I reckon that works just fine.
> 
> Understood though if you ferment in the cube or carefully rack from cube to fermenter.




Slightly OT, but is this sufficient for aeration? This is how I will generally do it but had been wondering.


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## Bribie G (4/3/11)

Cpt Suds said:


> Slightly OT, but is this sufficient for aeration? This is how I will generally do it but had been wondering.


 :icon_offtopic: 

Having read the "Yeast" book I now give my wort a good thrashing with a slotted spoon the next morning, to provide a second dose of oxygen.


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## argon (16/3/11)

Last night i took a sample from a carbed keg of a Rye ESB where i employed this method. Fantastic!... a huge improvement on the first half of the double batch i did.

I steeped some pale english crystal then boiled with a few styrian plugs, before adding to the chilled cube. The added complexity really brings it up into a proper ESB territory. Lovely malt aroma with some nice late styrian on the nose. I also used a more malty yeast and left it unfiltered to leave a much richer flavour. 

The reason i did this is that when i entered this beer in the BABBs mini-comp as an ESB i got a few comments back suggesting that it would go better as a Standard Bitter and needed a touch more malt aroma and flavour, with a higher hop aroma to sit firmly as an ESB. And to be honest i was never really that happy with how the first half turned out.

So I think i achieved all of the above, just by using this one simple method that probably took about 45mins to achieve. I really love having the ability to tweak the second half of a batch based on feedback. I think this will definitely improve my brewing skills alot quicker than if i had to rebrew to see the results.


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## Bribie G (16/3/11)

Bringing some to BABBs next Thursday? 

I've already done a couple of lagers for this years comps rounds and used _la methode argonoise_ :icon_chickcheers: on both. This morning I gave the Pale Continental Lager its second thrashing/ oxygenation before sealing up under a new sheet of clingwrap and locking it away at 10 degrees for a fortnight for primary. It's got 47 g CZ Saaz, ten minute addition done post-cube.

Whilst tidying it up I sniffed the discarded first piece of clingwrap - it smelled exactly like sniffing a bottle of finest Euro lager from Dans :icon_drool2: 
Can't wait for this one. 

BTW if I haven't posted here already, here's a calculator for mixing cold and hot liquids. In most instances if using 2 or 3 litres out of the cube for late boiling you really have to get way down to under about 9 degrees for the bulk of the wort, to hit strike temperatures. In the case of the lagers I was perhaps a bit underpitching on yeast , so pitched at around 18 degrees and have been working it down to 10 over 2 days, so it's working to my advantage. :icon_cheers:

Edit: the APA I mentioned above will be at BABBs as well in the minicomp.


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## argon (16/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Bringing some to BABBs next Thursday?




yeah i'll bring a bottle for sampling, although it may not be that clear as yeast is still settling in the keg... would love to give it another score against the ESB specs just to see the difference, so might grab a sheet and give it a shot myself. I'll bring in the Black IPA for a sampling too.



BribieG said:


> Edit: the APA I mentioned above will be at BABBs as well in the minicomp.



I'll be bringing my LFPA in...but probably only for comments, as i'm not all that happy with this batch... don't think it'll stand up against the likes of a Browndog APA. Got an IPA though that may do ok, based on the hydro sample last night, before i dryhopped at 2g/L.

Edit: 


BribieG said:


> BTW if I haven't posted here already, here's a calculator for mixing cold and hot liquids.


Yeah thanks saw that calculator the other day... handy


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## Phoney (16/3/11)

argon said:


> I first did it on the Black IPA tasting notes here



That sounds awesome!~

Any chance of a recipe?


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## argon (16/3/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> That sounds awesome!~
> 
> Any chance of a recipe?




Yeah mate here's the recipe... Black IPA (second brew of the day) although, my waxing lyrical skills in reference to this beer are better defined than my brewing skills :blink: ... i like it anyway.


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## Phoney (23/3/11)

Thanks again for that argon 

Back to the OP though, I gave this method a go yesterday on an IPA where my starter wasnt ready and it was getting too late at night for chilling normally etc.. Instead I no-chill cubed the entire wort, chilled it to 4C, then poured off 4L into a pot today and boiled it and added the 10 & 0 min additions in. 

All went fine, but I just question this;



argon said:


> I then added a 0min addition of hops to the 3L of near boiling wort
> Then almost immediately say 10 to 20 seconds later poured the 3L into the 17L of wort through the hopsock filtering out all the hop debris



Is 10 to 20 seconds of exposure really enough time for the hop oils to seep out into your wort, before you filter them out again? Given that in a normal brew after you add your flameout additions and then whirlpool for at least 10 minutes. 

I couldnt bare the sight of 100g of hops going down the sink and losing any of their potential flavours so I chucked the whole pot - unfiltered - into the fermenter. Would be an interesting experiment to make though I think: a) all hop debris added to fermenter with wort vs B) hop debris filtered out of kettle runnings and not added into fermenter.

What do you reckon?


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## outbreak (23/3/11)

I tried this method on sunday as I have been wanting more hop flavour/aroma from my APA's and IPA's. My 10 min additions were cube hopped and I did a quasi flame out addition in the last 5 mins by gradually adding 50g of Galaxy to 3L of boiling wort. Well I cannot believe how the hydrometer samples smell and taste! I haven't made anything quite this full of aroma and flavour yet.


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## argon (24/3/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> Thanks again for that argon
> 
> Back to the OP though, I gave this method a go yesterday on an IPA where my starter wasnt ready and it was getting too late at night for chilling normally etc.. Instead I no-chill cubed the entire wort, chilled it to 4C, then poured off 4L into a pot today and boiled it and added the 10 & 0 min additions in.
> 
> ...



Good to hear you gave it a go mate... i'm sure it'll turn out great.

As for the 10 to 20 second steeping of hops, i consider this to be almost the same way a hop back would work. Essentially very hot wort will dissolve out the aroma compounds then rapidly chilling the wort, locking all the aromas in.


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## Guysmiley54 (15/1/12)

argon said:


> Good to hear you gave it a go mate... i'm sure it'll turn out great.
> 
> As for the 10 to 20 second steeping of hops, i consider this to be almost the same way a hop back would work. Essentially very hot wort will dissolve out the aroma compounds then rapidly chilling the wort, locking all the aromas in.



I'm currently fermenting a double black ipa and didn't really bitter enough during the boil. Has anyone tried this method for adding bitterness? Doing a 60min mini boil, how would you compensate for evaporation? I have been trying to work out how many IBUs I would be adding to my batch by using a dilution calculator, is there a better way?

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## seamad (15/1/12)

I leave the lid on my pot for mini boils to reduce evap loss, afterall the wort has already been boiled to drive off the nasties.


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## [email protected] (15/1/12)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I'm currently fermenting a double black ipa and didn't really bitter enough during the boil. Has anyone tried this method for adding bitterness? Doing a 60min mini boil, how would you compensate for evaporation? I have been trying to work out how many IBUs I would be adding to my batch by using a dilution calculator, is there a better way?
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:



I have done it successfully, even when fermentation was almost complete.

I only boiled hops for 45mins in 1L of 1040 wort made up with ldme.
I just use Beersmith to calculate the IBUs.

I think its this thread? where argon has some workings for figuring how how to add your late hops ibus to the original wort.

Edit: nah it must be the other one thats around somewhere.
More With regards to using the late hopping on your existing wort, i have also diluted with boiled water for a slightly longer boil, i plug my volumes and gravity into BS to get an idea of hop utilization, this does not take into account the existing ibus being boiled for longer in the original wort though, which you can get a rough idea of using BS as well.

Hers is that other thread " the guide" further to this one.


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## Guysmiley54 (15/1/12)

Cheers,

When you say that you use Beersmith to calculate IBU do you simply add the new hops (and boil time) to the original recipe to see the difference? My original gravity was high (IIPA high!!) and if I'm only boiling in 1040 wort my numbers (utilisation) wouldn't really add up. I could of course increase the gravity on my miniboil to match my recipe but that would a) put too much DME into my AG brew and also B) add to fermentables when I already overshot my gravity by 10 points!!





Beer4U said:


> I have done it successfully, even when fermentation was almost complete.
> 
> I only boiled hops for 45mins in 1L of 1040 wort made up with ldme.
> I just use Beersmith to calculate the IBUs.
> ...


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## [email protected] (15/1/12)

Guysmiley54 said:


> Cheers,
> 
> When you say that you use Beersmith to calculate IBU do you simply add the new hops (and boil time) to the original recipe to see the difference? My original gravity was high (IIPA high!!) and if I'm only boiling in 1040 wort my numbers (utilisation) wouldn't really add up. I could of course increase the gravity on my miniboil to match my recipe but that would a) put too much DME into my AG brew and also B) add to fermentables when I already overshot my gravity by 10 points!!




I am having trouble today putting things into words.........

Say you take 2L of your 2ipa @ 1075? Depending how hard and long you boil your 2L pot, evaporation can happen pretty quick.
So if you wanted to boil for another 45mins for more bittering, i would dilute the gravity somewhere back near to you original pre boil gravity, dilution tool on BS.

To get the ibu calculations in BS from late hops, i would usually just scale down to a 2L recipe, add how ever longer i am going to boil to the boil time. 
Then punch in 10, 5 and 0 min additions of hops, then use argons calculations in the other thread to work out what it will end up adding to the total batch. 

I think as long as you get your gravity readings matching or close enough to what BS is making the calculations on, then it should be close enough.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.

eidt: hmm seem dingus never posted the link to the other thread eh...
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=786420


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## manticle (15/1/12)

argon said:


> Firstly I put the 17L cube in the fridge overnight to drop the temperature down to 4C
> I then boiled up 3L of some more wort at 1040 (3L and 300g LDME)
> I boiled this for 15 minutes adding a 10 min hop addition, a 5 minute hop addition and took it off the stove
> I then took the 3L in the stock pot to the fermenter and set it aside
> ...



Just to add a suggestion:

I stop draining my kettle into my cube once I start getting what I consider too much break material and trub entering the tap.

However there is usually some clear wort left which it's not possible to separate then and there. I drain most of this into an erlenmeyer (could use any sanitary vessel - I have used a plastic jug before), cover and refrigerate overnight.

Next day I decant the clear wort as the break material settles out. I reboil for sanitary reasons and either use for starter wort if I'm not in a rush or just add back to the fermenter, usually between 1 and 2 litres.

Your method could be used in conjunctionto double up for late hop aroma additions.


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