# Carbing/Conditioning in a Cube before keg



## m3taL (13/1/13)

Just wondering if anyone has done this before??

I'm thinking about getting a kegging setup going over the next month or so however at $70 odd per keg i'd be interested to know if using a 20L Cube after fermentation then bulk prime it then letting it carb naturally over a month or two then transferring to keg to dispense is a stupid idea?? is it not done???

if it is stupid how long can one rack a secondary off safely for (straight from fermenter to a cube no priming etc)


Iv noticed with my bottled beers how much better even kits taste after a good 6-8 weeks of conditioning... i would like to be able to have 1 in the keg on the pour, 2+ in the cube conditioning, leaves room for 1 in the fermenter and a couple of No-Chill cubes around to get the process running perfect.....


my alternative is to just try and streamline the bottle cleaning process, i dont mind bottling i just hate cleaning and sanitizing them by hand, i use far too much sanitizer up and it takes me way too long to do 30 bottles......


----------



## seemax (13/1/13)

Why would you bother? If you can't afford kegs, just keep your fermented beer in the fermenter/cube at 2C for 6 weeks. When you're ready to drink, drain into keg and force carb it, drink next day.


----------



## m3taL (13/1/13)

so racking off to secondary with a upto 6 week cold condition is quite feasible??

sounds good enough for me 

cheers


----------



## barls (13/1/13)

the cube wont take the pressure of full carbonation. 
also just sitting at room temp in just a cube is just asking for an infection.


----------



## raven19 (13/1/13)

m3taL said:


> so racking off to secondary with a upto 6 week cold condition is quite feasible??
> 
> sounds good enough for me
> 
> cheers


Yes, as long as your sanitation techniques are sound your beer will be stable at 1 degree for 6weeks.


----------



## DUANNE (13/1/13)

m3taL said:


> so racking off to secondary with a upto 6 week cold condition is quite feasible??
> 
> sounds good enough for me
> 
> cheers


personnaly i wouldnt even bother racking to secondary and risking infection and oxidation. the yeast will be quite stable at cold conditioning temps.


----------



## S.E (14/1/13)

m3taL said:


> Just wondering if anyone has done this before??
> 
> I'm thinking about getting a kegging setup going over the next month or so however at $70 odd per keg i'd be interested to know if using a 20L Cube after fermentation then bulk prime it then letting it carb naturally over a month or two then transferring to keg to dispense is a stupid idea?? is it not done???
> 
> ...


I have been carbing and conditioning in cubes for over five years, they are great for cask conditioning. I don’t have a kegging setup, I just dispense from the cube tap or sometimes connect my beer engine.

The only issue I have found is the tap may drip under pressure. You can fix this by pulling the tap apart and smearing a little Vaseline in the groove.

To pull the tap apart put it in a cup of boiling water for a few seconds, it will expand and pull it apart easily. I use pliers to grip the top.

Cheers Sean


----------



## S.E (14/1/13)

barls said:


> the cube wont take the pressure of full carbonation.
> also just sitting at room temp in just a cube is just asking for an infection.


You may be surprised at the pressure a cube can take. I posted a picture of one of my cube casks here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/68215-fermenting-in-cube-forcing-expansion-to-create-head-space/#entry962744


----------



## tallie (14/1/13)

S.E said:


> You may be surprised at the pressure a cube can take. I posted a picture of one of my cube casks here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/68215-fermenting-in-cube-forcing-expansion-to-create-head-space/#entry962744


Yikes, I would certainly not be relying on this! That's one hell of a mess to clean up if one of the seams goes or if the tap gets pushed out!

Cheers,
tallie


----------



## S.E (15/1/13)

tallie said:


> Yikes, I would certainly not be relying on this! That's one hell of a mess to clean up if one of the seams goes or if the tap gets pushed out!
> 
> Cheers,
> tallie


It does sound a bit dodgy but if you think about it it’s no different from priming glass bottles, probably safer. If you over prime bottles the first you know about it is when they go bang. Cubes just swell up slowly so you have a visual indication of what’s going on and can release the pressure.

I just keep an eye on them for the first few days and if they swell up so much that I can’t slip my fingers under the handle I just drink a pint or two.
I have never had a seam split or a tap pushed out the only problem was the taps dripped a little when I started but Vaseline sorted that out.

Cubes are a great cheap alternative to kegs for brewers fed up with bottling or just want to try cask conditioned “real ale”.

I brought back real ale casks from the UK but prefer to use 15 litre cubes as I can dispense the first 5 litres without having to let any air in, the rest will keep for about 7or 8 days @ in the fridge. I only use my casks for our club events as once tapped they need to be used in 3 or 4 days.

Cheers


----------



## Maheel (15/1/13)

sounds like and interesting idea for a disposable camping / day out / party keg


----------



## S.E (15/1/13)

Maheel said:


> sounds like and interesting idea for a disposable camping / day out / party keg


If you are going camping / day out, it is best to rack of the yeast to another cube before you travel and drink it within 3 days. UK breweries transfer to a clean cask if it they are sending beer to real ale fest and it won’t have time to settle.


----------



## Bribie G (15/1/13)

The various methods above are great for UK style ales. If you are short of temperature-controlled space or kegs, I make better use of the existing fridge real estate and bring the beers on more quickly by:

Fermenting in primary in the temp control fridge, then crashing it down to around -1 degree for a couple of days to substantially settle

Transfer to a 20L vessel like my BCF water "tub" where the beer comes almost to the rim and can be CO2 flushed, and pop it in my hops/grains fridge freezer and just let it sit as if it's a big bottle, till there's a keg free. Cube would also be good but I've had problems finding a cube that holds exactly 20L which is why the BCF one is absolutely brilliant.

Depending on the yeast it can still work very slowly at the 4 degrees or whatever in the fridge so on kegging it's already a bit spritzy on the tongue and is perfect for UK ale after only a day or so in the kegmate. Advantage of getting it into the other fridge is that it frees up the fermentation fridge for the next batch, plus you have matured, bright keg-ready beer whenever it's needed.


----------



## woodwormm (15/1/13)

my God home brewers are an inventive, inquisitive, experimental bunch! love yous alls AHB'ers!


----------



## barls (15/1/13)

S.E said:


> You may be surprised at the pressure a cube can take. I posted a picture of one of my cube casks here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/68215-fermenting-in-cube-forcing-expansion-to-create-head-space/#entry962744


i guaranty that you wont get anywhere near 2.7 volumes in a cube before they bust. you would be lucky to get more than one volume in there. it might be fine for most of the british styles which are suppose to have very low carbonation.

as for your point about it being no different to bottles, wrong they have been designed as a pressure vessel where as the cubes your using havent been


----------



## S.E (16/1/13)

barls said:


> i guaranty that you wont get anywhere near 2.7 volumes in a cube before they bust. you would be lucky to get more than one volume in there. it might be fine for most of the british styles which are suppose to have very low carbonation.
> 
> as for your point about it being no different to bottles, wrong they have been designed as a pressure vessel where as the cubes your using havent been


Sorry Didn’t mean to cause offence I assumed you had not tried carbing a cube, just saying you may be surprised at the pressure they can hold I know I was.

Not sure how many volumes you can get in a cube before they bust but when I have over primed them the beer has been over carbonated.

I know cubes are not bottles and not designed as pressure vessels, I just meant if you over prime them they won’t burst without warning like bottles can, they slowly swell up like crazy so you can release pressure before they burst. The keg I use as a kettle wasn’t designed for that and my esky wasn’t designed to be used as a mash tun but it works well.

The op didn’t ask if you could get near 2.7 volumes in a cube, just asked if anyone had bulk primed a cube and let it carb naturally. I was just letting him know that I had. He also said he didn’t like cleaning and sanitising 30 bottles, so just letting him know he could dispense from a cube.

I also find bottling and cleaning a pain and as I brew all grain have streamlined my brewing to about 6 hours every two or three weeks. I only need to clean and sanitise three cubes the fermenter and chiller while I am pottering about during the mash and boil.

Anyway I think Bribie G response is more in line with what the op wanted to know.

Cheers


----------



## slash22000 (16/1/13)

barls said:


> also just sitting at room temp in just a cube is just asking for an infection.


So here's what might be a stupid question.

Why is leaving beer in a cube at room temperature "asking for an infection" but people can leave beer in secondary fermentation for months with no problems? Aren't they basically the same thing? Finished beer sitting around outside the fridge?


----------



## timmi9191 (16/1/13)

Cubes WILL take the pressure of secondary fermentation. In fact I pressurise to 12 psi to pour with no issues. A very effective and cost efficient party keg!!


----------



## NickB (16/1/13)

Holy shit. Someone is going to cop a hell of a blast in their face following the above advice. A keg costs maybe 2.5 - 3x a cube. Do the maths.

FFS, don't endanger yourselves for cheap beer!


Sheesh!


----------



## timmi9191 (16/1/13)

Many uses, no blasts or failures yet nick!!


----------



## S.E (21/1/13)

NickB said:


> Holy shit. Someone is going to cop a hell of a blast in their face following the above advice. A keg costs maybe 2.5 - 3x a cube. Do the maths. FFS, don't endanger yourselves for cheap beer! Sheesh!


Kegs may only cost 3x a cube but then you need the rest of the setup to dispense. Cubes are fine for cask conditioning and dispensing and you get a free cube if you buy a FWK.

Even if a cube was over primed it would just split and cause a bit of a mess, you wouldn’t cop a blast in the face unless you happened to be kissing it when it burst.

As far as I am aware you can’t get the UK homebrew plastic pressure casks here so I can’t think of a better alternative.


----------



## Bats (21/1/13)

timmi9191 said:


> Cubes WILL take the pressure of secondary fermentation. In fact I pressurise to 12 psi to pour with no issues. A very effective and cost efficient party keg!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow... What a unique replacement for a party keg...

I'm guessing the bicycle valves are to add pouring pressure?

Where do you pour from?

Have you ever had a cube fail and bust?

Might attempt something similar if it proves feasible.


----------



## tallie (21/1/13)

S.E said:


> Kegs may only cost 3x a cube but then you need the rest of the setup to dispense. Cubes are fine for cask conditioning and dispensing and you get a free cube if you buy a FWK.
> 
> Even if a cube was over primed it would just split and cause a bit of a mess, you wouldn’t cop a blast in the face unless you happened to be kissing it when it burst.
> 
> As far as I am aware you can’t get the UK homebrew plastic pressure casks here so I can’t think of a better alternative.


If the cube busted whilst sitting next to something that could topple over, or on top of an electrical appliance, or while someone was standing right next to it, you may have more than just a mess. You haven't run into any problems so far, and maybe you never will, but giving advice to pressurise non-rated containers and ignoring or not disclosing the risks is a bit irresponsible, IMHO.

Cheers,
tallie


----------



## barls (21/1/13)

S.E said:


> Kegs may only cost 3x a cube but then you need the rest of the setup to dispense. Cubes are fine for cask conditioning and dispensing and you get a free cube if you buy a FWK.
> 
> Even if a cube was over primed it would just split and cause a bit of a mess, you wouldn’t cop a blast in the face unless you happened to be kissing it when it burst.
> 
> As far as I am aware you can’t get the UK homebrew plastic pressure casks here so I can’t think of a better alternative.


actually you can buy them here
http://shop.nnlbeersupplies.com.au/?main_page=index

as for it will only split then leak. you havent worked with a lot of hydraulics or pneumatics have you.
ive seen hydraulic hoses burst and do damage to steel components, ive also seen someone nearly loose and arm when a car rim exploded while putting the normal pressure in. ive seen pneumatic fittings embedded in wall panels because they have fail and split, we were very lucky that no one was in the compartment at the time and that was 10psi.
do yourself and others that may be involved a favour and get something thats pressure rated.


----------



## m3taL (21/1/13)

Iv put 2lt of boiling water in my cube and shaken it and it blew up like a balloon with a cheap tap in it and when I let the lid go it went "poof" we'll over 10 psi in it and its fine, might take it to work tomorrow and see how many psi it takes, got 160 at the compressor, anyone got a go pro they want to film it with


----------



## glaab (21/1/13)

I got trolled to death on here when I spent 600 bucks on a 20gal Blichmann kettle with comments like "you must be made of money", "what a wanker, an old keg woulda done the same job" and "but that wouldna have the Blichmann sticker an it !" etc etc Now you get the same treatment for trying to save a few bucks. You could get on here with a cure for cancer and the trolls'd be all over you like fruit flies.


----------



## timmi9191 (22/1/13)

Bats said:


> Wow... What a unique replacement for a party keg...
> 
> I'm guessing the bicycle valves are to add pouring pressure?
> 
> ...


Bats - one valve for adding pour pressure, one for pressure gauge. Pours via the picnic faucet fitted through the cap with jg bulk head connector.

It works well, no failures. Built 2 at the same time for total outlay of $45

For all the doomsdayers, were talking 10 to 12 psi, not industrial hydrolics! Ps don't go outdoors lightening might strike...


----------



## billygoat (22/1/13)

Good to see S.E and timmi9191 posting their REAL LIFE experiences using cubes. Great idea, saw homebrewers in the UK using similiar set ups. Might try something myself.
Wonder what the doomsayers think about people who use polypins to carb up and dispense real ale.


----------



## timmi9191 (22/1/13)

Thanks billy, It's great learning from real life experience. Some of the doomsdayers do have some valid points. I'll remember not to keep electrical appliances near the cube - in the past I've had a nasty habit of keeping my toaster in the esky while the cube is chilling. I'll also move the cube away from the rocket I'm building to avoid said rocket being knocked over and causing serious injury to the rocket geeks that gather daily..

I'll also never handle a food product again as I don't have a certificate in food handling, I'll return my stc-1000 as its not a certified electrical appliance and I won't pay cash at my LHBS to receive a 10% discount as I'm doing irreparable damage to the Australian economy..


----------



## Silver (22/1/13)

*Can't wait to have a crack at this. Thinking outside the sqare and inside the cube. Love it.*


----------



## S.E (22/1/13)

barls said:


> actually you can buy them here
> http://shop.nnlbeersupplies.com.au/?main_page=index
> 
> as for it will only split then leak. you havent worked with a lot of hydraulics or pneumatics have you.
> ...


Sounds like you have had a few bad experiences barls, so I understand the nervous disposition.

Thanks for the link but I was referring to the plastic UK Homebrew pressure barrel that you can inject with co2 from soda stream type cylinders.

The ones NNL are selling are plastic Pins and Firkins and mainly used by micro breweries in the UK rather than homebrewers. I have bought some though.

One of my brew club friends borrowed one of my pins for a club real ale fest. His daughter phoned him at work to let him know she had heard a loud bang and 20 liters of IPA was rolling down the garden path from under the brewery/laundry door. When I went around later that evening we found the shive had been blasted out across the room like a plastic bullet. He always declines when I offer my pins now and has gone back to cask conditioning in cubes.

A few weeks after the exploding IPA incident I fermented 50 litres of beer that hadn’t turned out that great so I decided as an experiment to deliberately over prime one of the pins and a cube. After a week or so the cube was looking really unhappy so I started drinking it to relieve the pressure, a couple of days after that I went out to the shaded part of the back yard where I had left the pin and found it had blown its shive out. Never did find the shive I think it may still be orbiting the earth.

So from my experience if you over prime bottles or pressure rated casks they can blow glass and shives.

I find cubes much easier than pins as you can see if they are too swollen and can vent them before it is too late or just try a sample from the tap any time you want. Cubes fit in my fridge but the pins don’t after they are tapped.

Cheers


----------



## S.E (22/1/13)

tallie said:


> If the cube busted whilst sitting next to something that could topple over, or on top of an electrical appliance, or while someone was standing right next to it, you may have more than just a mess. You haven't run into any problems so far, and maybe you never will, but giving advice to pressurise non-rated containers and ignoring or not disclosing the risks is a bit irresponsible, IMHO.
> 
> Cheers,
> tallie


Now that’s just plain silly tallie. Your joking right? Obviously you would need to use common sense and not balance cubes on the TV set.

But yes home brewing can be a bit risky such as balancing home converted Kegs or other non-rated containers full of boiling wort on homemade non-rated brew stands. So yes some people should be made aware of the risks and probably consider another hobby like maybe origami and perhaps wear gloves to avoid nasty paper cuts.

Cheers


----------



## Bats (22/1/13)

timmi9191 said:


> Bats - one valve for adding pour pressure, one for pressure gauge. Pours via the picnic faucet fitted through the cap with jg bulk head connector.
> 
> It works well, no failures. Built 2 at the same time for total outlay of $45
> 
> For all the doomsdayers, were talking 10 to 12 psi, not industrial hydrolics! Ps don't go outdoors lightening might strike...


How did you make the valves air tight? How bout putting some pics up of the tap too and info on how you created it?

I would be keen to give this a crack. And if it cracks.... Well S*#t Happens.


----------



## timmi9191 (22/1/13)

SE - paper cuts lmao wish I had of thought of that one.

Bats, valves are tubeless tyre valve so they self seal in a 12 mm hole. Tap is just your standard picnic faucet - you can get at your LHBS or online through craftbrewer. Also need a john guest bulkhead connector, again at your lhbs or craftbrewer. drill 18mm hole in screw on cap, fit bulk head connector, i oversealed with silicon that is used to seal aquariums. fit standard beer line on both sides of the cap. If the cube has a fitting for a tap make sure it's well sealed- I used plumbers Teflon tape and over sealed with the same silicon.


----------



## Silver (23/1/13)

It seems a cube has no seam. Nice and smooth inside but what appears to be a seam on the outside is only where two halves of a mold have left their mark. Found a nice little video of the Blow Molding process. Not sure how to link but here it is.


----------



## sp0rk (12/8/13)

There's still a seam at the top and bottom


----------



## koots (12/8/13)

barls said:


> actually you can buy them here
> http://shop.nnlbeersupplies.com.au/?main_page=index
> 
> as for it will only split then leak. you havent worked with a lot of hydraulics or pneumatics have you.
> ...


Hydraulic hoses that burst and do damage to steel components are running under a lot more pressure than a cube of ale mate. A 2-300bar hydraulic system is a very different thing to a plastic container with beer in it. I'm going to assume old mate that nearly lost his arm was trying to seat the bead also with more than 40psi, against all guidelines but I will admit that a lot less pressure can still cause that. (2 or 3 piece rim? If a solid rim then he was a dickhead for trying to fit a tyre to a fucked rim)

And the pneumatic fitting may I ask what the volume of air was at 10psi? Once again a big difference between a cube and a large industrial vessel at 10psi.


----------



## barls (12/8/13)

koots said:


> Hydraulic hoses that burst and do damage to steel components are running under a lot more pressure than a cube of ale mate. A 2-300bar hydraulic system is a very different thing to a plastic container with beer in it. I'm going to assume old mate that nearly lost his arm was trying to seat the bead also with more than 40psi, against all guidelines but I will admit that a lot less pressure can still cause that. (2 or 3 piece rim? If a solid rim then he was a dickhead for trying to fit a tyre to a fucked rim)
> 
> And the pneumatic fitting may I ask what the volume of air was at 10psi? Once again a big difference between a cube and a large industrial vessel at 10psi.


lets see never said the hydraulics was low pressure did i, it was a crane system and it actually bent the main extension arm of it.
the tire was being topped up to 36 by the owner out the front of the workshop i use to work at when the rim parted no signs of damage before hand, he was bloody lucky. it was a one piece mag rim.
as for the tire fitting stations i believe the air supply the use is now fed through the tool to stop this sort of thing
as for the pneumatic system, a hoist, was running 4mm lines and yes there was a few hoses in there nothing over the top or as it had numerous pressure limiting devices before the device. its the only time ive seen a john guest fitting fail. you must remember that we are talking mil spec systems so failure is highly unlikely.
let me see i could use something thats designed and tested to go to up to 2.5 times the operating pressure or i could use something not designed for pressure use that i have to modify then hook up an unregulated supply which could possibly supply up to 120psi. 
pick apart my stories, pity it was in a space where no cameras are allowed.
ok having done a reasonable level of pneumatics training with a reputable training establishment i still say someones going to get hurt doing this. it might be a small chance but it will happen.
its no different to telling someone to buck up and just wire their own temp controller when they have no knowledge of what they are doing. hence why ill keep saying these things.


----------



## barls (12/8/13)

here you go something thats actually designed to take pressure exploding 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ahp6rBs5aQ
look at the fragments. its not going to be pretty when it happens and someone is next to it.


----------



## koots (12/8/13)

You're completely right to give a warning, I'm just saying your comparisons were like chalk and cheese!


----------



## S.E (13/8/13)

barls said:


> here you go something thats actually designed to take pressure exploding
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ahp6rBs5aQ
> look at the fragments. its not going to be pretty when it happens and someone is next to it.


Barls, please rest assured that cubes are perfectly safe for cask conditioning ale. They will not take anything like the pressure of the bottle in your video before they split or pop the tap and that’s what makes them safer than bottles.

Home brewers in the UK have been using semi rigid cubes and even collapsible polypins since the sixties without fatalities. Here in the Illawarra a lot of brewers I know have been using cubes for cask conditioning for at least 5 years. Brewers all over Australia are using cubes for no chill, I have heard of no chill cubes spontaneously fermenting but never exploding.

When Jesus was teaching the trappist monks to brew they didn’t say “oh dear lord have you pressure tested these bottles” they just got on with it without saying a word. 

Go on Barls give it a go, you know you want to. If it makes you feel better you could always throw a towel over the cube like bottlers are advised to do.

Cheers


----------



## fletcher (13/8/13)

S.E said:


> When Jesus was teaching the trappist monks to brew they didn’t say “oh dear lord have you pressure tested these bottles” they just got on with it without saying a word.


please tell me you're taking the piss here.


----------



## S.E (13/8/13)

fletcher said:


> please tell me you're taking the piss here.


It was meant as a joke, Trappist Monks and the vow of silence thing not saying a word. It seemed funny at the time. Sorry


----------



## mje1980 (13/8/13)

Dont worry sean, i have access to hydraulic relief valves, most set to 350bar. Ill fit them to your cubes at stout fest.


----------



## fletcher (13/8/13)

S.E said:


> It was meant as a joke, Trappist Monks and the vow of silence thing not saying a word. It seemed funny at the time. Sorry


haha nah you're fine mate. made me laugh, but because i thought you were being serious haha


----------



## manticle (13/8/13)

I think the phrase 'when Jesus taught the trappist monks...' should have made you cotton on Fletch.


----------



## fletcher (13/8/13)

that's what it was. i thought...'he thinks that!? better back away here...jesus freak'


----------



## S.E (14/8/13)

fletcher said:


> that's what it was. i thought...'he thinks that!? better back away here...jesus freak'


I’m glad you asked the question and that was cleared up.


----------



## fletcher (14/8/13)

S.E said:


> I’m glad you asked the question and that was cleared up.


i realise i've just wasted lots of pixels and megabytes (and time) on my lame posts


----------



## S.E (14/8/13)

mje1980 said:


> Dont worry sean, i have access to hydraulic relief valves, most set to 350bar. Ill fit them to your cubes at stout fest.


Mark do you have access to a compressor? I have one but the pressure gauge is broken. I think blowing up a cube would be a great project for stout fest.

This thread was linked in the recent posts this morning. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/873-carbonation-cap/ According to post 10 PET bottles can go to 100 psi without bursting so it’s not surprising they can explode with such ferocity. I don’t think a cube will be any way near as exciting but we had best do it after we have all had a few beer so we are immune to danger just in case.

Although we have established that cubes have been tested in use and can clearly take the pressure of carbonation safely it would be rather interesting to see how much pressure they would take before splitting.

I remember someone turned up to one of our early real ale fests with a cube that had swollen up so much it was starting to split down one side was that you Mark or do you remember who it was?


----------



## mje1980 (15/8/13)

No i dont have one sean. hmmm would be a good experiment. Yes i remember, it stretched in one place. Was quite odd but it still served many ales from hazy memory. Definately didnt blow up


----------



## S.E (2/2/15)

Thought I would update this thread with the results of a carbing and conditioning in a cube experiment I tried.

The idea was to see if I could ferment then carb, condition and dispense all in the same cube.
I filled the cube leaving no head space and fermented with the cube on its side and a blow off tube fitted to the tap like this.







I was hoping that with no head space a lot of trub and yeast would be blown out, It sort of worked but not as well as I had hoped.

When It finished fermenting I closed the tap removed the blow off and turned the cube the right way up.
I didn’t open or prime the cube, the yeast that had settled on the side when it had been the bottom slid down and was roused enough to ferment a bit more to carb and swell the cube like so.




The resulting beer was fantastic the hop aroma and taste was intense. This was part of a 55 litre batch and I fermented the rest in my 60L fermenter. The beer in the fermenter was nice but didn’t have anything near the hop aroma and taste of the cube especially after it had been casked (in a cube of course).

So what I’m thinking is there could be several good reasons to ferment in a cube then carb and condition in it before kegging.

1) If you no chill there is no need to clean and sanitise a fermenter.
2) The secondary pressure ferment and carbonation in the cube will aid and speed up flocculation/Clarification.
3) it will be pre carbed before kegging so save co2.
4) Improved hop taste and aroma?

I had intended to try this again to see if there was still such a noticeable difference before posting but just haven’t got around to doing so. I know others on here ferment in cubes so would be interested to hear if anyone has sealed and carbed and if so noticed any hop improvement.

Cheers Sean


----------



## S.E (3/2/15)

DOH! It’s just occurred to me that I ran the whole batch through my chiller but can’t remember if I filled the fermenter or cube first so the noticeable hop difference may be simply because the cube was chilled quicker and nothing to do with it being sealed and carbed.


----------



## takai (21/2/15)

Anyone experimented with room temperature cube conditioning before kegging? Im considering it as i dont have a conditioning fridge (damn you dodgy garage electrics) and need more space for beer


----------



## manticle (21/2/15)

Experienced as in done it? Yes. Any particular bit of info you are chasing?


----------



## takai (22/2/15)

Anything to watch out for? I presume at ambient temp it will bulge a bit from the residual fermentation, but i plan to just rack over and use it as a longer term secondary. Thinking about putting a little purge port in the cap to purge the headspace with CO2, but thats about it.


----------



## Eagleburger (22/2/15)

takai said:


> Anything to watch out for? I presume at ambient temp it will bulge a bit from the residual fermentation, but i plan to just rack over and use it as a longer term secondary. Thinking about putting a little purge port in the cap to purge the headspace with CO2, but thats about it.


Just wear appropriate PPE in its vicinity and you will be alright.

Photos dont do this justice. It was an english ale I did last year for christmas. It was naturally carbed in a 50L keg.I took 1/2 to a party and so I could leave lite, I put it in a cube. It was filled to the brim to exclude oxygen. The car ride turned it into a balloon.


----------



## S.E (17/11/15)

After about seven years of trusty service, it finally happened. I let one of my cubes swell a little too much and it burst.

Well it didn’t burst exactly it just sort of split and started leaking slightly. A bit of a disappointment and letdown actually, after the destruction and devastation that had been predicted. 

I didn’t have room in the Cuberator so had left it on the utility floor at ambient. I noticed the day before that it had swollen a bit more than usual but got sidetracked and forgot to release the pressure.

First I noticed a small puddle on the floor near the cube, and then saw a stream of beer squirting from a pin hole in the cube.




Turning the cube on its side revealed a gash near the bottom but it hadn’t split all the way through, just a tiny pin hole. So I turned the tap uppermost and opening it to release pressure.




And repaired the hole with duct tape.




So all’s well that ends well. The beer was saved and I should get another seven years use from the cube. After all, they do repair holes in passenger planes with duct tape don’t they!!


----------



## antiphile (17/11/15)

> After all, they do repair holes in passenger planes with duct tape don’t they!!


Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right. I could swear I've seen it on the tellie on a show called _Air Crash Investigation_.


----------



## S.E (17/11/15)

antiphile said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right. I could swear I've seen it on the tellie on a show called _Air Crash Investigation_.


It’s not really duct tape that they use to patch up planes but looks the same.

[SIZE=11pt]It wouldn’t inspire confidence if you looked out the window and saw someone taping the engine on your plane just before takeoff like the passenger in this article did, would it?  [/SIZE]


----------



## Yob (17/11/15)

Is that food grade duct tape?

Sorry...


----------



## S.E (17/11/15)

Yob said:


> Is that food grade duct tape?
> 
> Sorry...


  Ha, I was thinking the same when I taped it up. Initially I was going to transfer to another cube but then remembered duct tape and plane repairs and thought what the hell.

So now I know I’m not going to blow myself up but may have poisoned myself. :unsure:


----------



## S.E (12/12/17)

As WEAL has taken carbing in a cube to a new level over here in the https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/fermenting-under-pressure.66163/page-19 thread it has got me thinking about fermenting under pressure then carbing and conditioning in a cube before a keg (or cask).

Unlike racking to a cube and priming it, if using one as a pressure fermenter its going to need a Pressure relief valve so I’ve come up with this simple idea.






I have drilled a small 1mm hole in a piece of beer line (marked with red pen) and covered it over first with a wide elastic band tied around it.

Pumped up with a bike pump this releases excess pressure and holds at around 6 psi.

The green ring in the pic is a band from a Noosa rat trap, I then slid the elastic band off the hole and covered it with the green ring and pressure is released at around 15psi.

My thinking is that with playing around with different size rubber bands pressure could be regulated at whatever is desired. Start fermenting at a low pressure with light band then increase near the end with a heavier band.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/12/18)

I did try that but with a finger from a disposable glove and the elastic band, I actually think it was you that mentioned it Sean in one of the cube threads or the fermenting under pressure thread, since found these in a LHB 

A none return valve which holds the pressure spot on 5 PSI, over that and it automatically vents, no need for a gauge.


----------



## S.E (14/12/18)

5 psi would be ok for fermenting but it would be better to go a bit higher for carbing and conditioning to speed things up.

A couple of my UK plastic pressure barrels had a small hole near the bottom of the gas post covered with a rubber ring that vented co2 at around 10 psi


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/12/18)

S.E said:


> 5 psi would be ok for fermenting but it would be better to go a bit higher for carbing and conditioning to speed things up.
> 
> A couple of my UK plastic pressure barrels had a small hole near the bottom of the gas post covered with a rubber ring that vented co2 at around 10 psi


Yes that seems about right, it will go by the temperature the beer is served at, for me I would be needing to pressurise the head space at say 20 C to around 10 to 12 PSI cool to 10 to 12 C for an English ale to get the serving carbonation right.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (11/2/19)

S.E said:


> As WEAL has taken carbing in a cube to a new level over here in the https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/fermenting-under-pressure.66163/page-19 thread it has got me thinking about fermenting under pressure then carbing and conditioning in a cube before a keg (or cask).
> 
> Unlike racking to a cube and priming it, if using one as a pressure fermenter its going to need a Pressure relief valve so I’ve come up with this simple idea.View attachment 110367
> 
> ...


How did you go with that Sean, I have noticed that with a 4 mm dia tube between the fermenting cube and the gas catching cube the krausen seems suppressed I was thinking of using tap caps between the two cubes,


----------



## S.E (15/8/20)

Edit: oops, sorry wrong thread.


----------



## scomet (16/8/20)

NickB said:


> Holy shit. Someone is going to cop a hell of a blast in their face


I agree with NickB, do the math 12psi over 200 sq" + gas is an energised fluid, the force is enormous! A split rim at 2psi will take your head off, this imho is a very unsafe practice. Just because it hasn't doesn't mean it wont....


----------



## S.E (17/8/20)

scomet said:


> I agree with NickB, do the math 12psi over 200 sq" + gas is an energised fluid, the force is enormous! A split rim at 2psi will take your head off, this imho is a very unsafe practice. Just because it hasn't doesn't mean it wont....


It just doesn’t happen mate. Time has shown that cubes are perfectly safe to use for fermenters, casks and no chill. No explosions and the sky has never fallen down. I have only ever had one cube fail in use as a cask and it just stretched until a pin hole appeared and squirted beer out the side.

There have however been plenty failures with cubes used for no chill which is probably the most common use for cubes in home brewing. They do burst if the wort is infected and spontaneously ferments in the sealed cube but again I have only ever heard and seen them stretch split and leak but no explosions.

Even with the latest craze of fermenting under pressure in PET fermenters there have been failures where they have burst and they hold far more pressure than HDPE cubes. So it could be argued that cubes are safer than PET fermenters or even stainless steel kegs where there have been explosions and fatalities.


----------



## Andy Graham (19/8/20)

mje1980 said:


> Dont worry sean, i have access to hydraulic relief valves, most set to 350bar. Ill fit them to your cubes at stout fest.


Wow, 350 bar. You forgot the decimal point mate. Think you mean 0.35bar
Andy


----------

