# Cloudy pilsner



## nosco (17/5/15)

I have done done fresh wort lagers before but this the first lager i have brewed myself. Its a biab bo pils or something with
80% Weyerman Bo Pils (i dont think its floor malted)
15% Vienna 
5% carapils
Saaz 35 ibu's 60,40,20,0 (160g or so)
No chill
Wyeast 2002. 1/2 pack stepped up twice.

Its only been in the keg for a week @ 0c but even so its really cloudy. I used whirlflock at 5 but it didnt seem to do much. I did a double batch. The 2nd half is fermenting atm so this first half didnt get much trub at all. I did a protein rest 52c i for 15min i think, just for the hell of it. It looked more like poridge than a mash.

I dont want to use gelitine just for the sake of the exercise. I am happy to wait 4-6 weeks but as i only have cheap store beer to drink i am worried it wont last that long. Its a little too sweet but still tastes better than cheap beer. Ive already had to many from the keg.

How long should it take to condition and clear?
Is it possible to make a clear pils with biab and no chill?


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## slcmorro (17/5/15)

Come back and try it in a month.


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## nosco (17/5/15)

That's what I was worried about


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## motman (17/5/15)

Gelatin should help


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## nosco (17/5/15)

If it hasn't changed in 4 or 5 weeks then maybe I'll try but I'd rather see how it goes without it. Just as an experiment.


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## dicko (17/5/15)

Let the beer in the glass warm up and if it goes clear then you have chill haze.
All the gelatine and normal chill storage will not fix that however it may drop clear if left for extended times.

With the next half of the brew, finish the fermentation and cube and then chill the beer to -1 degc and mix up some polyclar as per the instruction and drop that into the secondary cube.
Leave it settle for a week or longer if you can and then keg carefully without disturbing the yeast and trub that has settled.
Personally I filter with a 1 micron absolute filter with great results but many on here boo the use of filters so you will have to make your mind up regarding filtering.

It is possible to make clear beer with Biab and no chill but chilling the wort makes everything clear a lot quicker. The use of Brewbrite 10 minutes before the end of the boil makes a lot of difference as well. IMO brewbrite is much better than wirlfloc or othe adjuncts.

If you are doing your clearing and lagering in a corny keg then you may cut a half inch or so off the dip tube so that it is above the trub and settled yeast and just leave it sit undisturbed for as long as you can.


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## nosco (18/5/15)

It's definitely not chill haze. I was more wondering if it's normal for a beer to come out this hazy and if there's anything I can do in the mash with pils malt to make it clearer. Probably should have mentioned that in the OP.

To tell the truth filtering sounds like a pita and would use more gas than I care to use so I won't be trying that anytime soon.

I've never used brewbrite or polyclar before but I'm brewing a pale this Friday to use my new mill so I'll get some at the brew shop and give it a go. I got into no chill coz it was cheaper and I can stock pile wort but as soon a I get some money a chiller is next on the list just after a new reptile heater for the ferm fridge, some bulk grain, a drip tray, a better hydrometer and a flask for it and a gas splitter. And some hops. And a temp controlled recirc setup.......

I probably need a chiller if I want to make more pils.


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## manticle (18/5/15)

Pour a glass and leave in a cold fridge for a few days. See if yeast drops out.
Haze can be caused by a variety of factors but eliminate the obvious first. One week in keg without filtering, fining or multiple rackings suggests yeast. How long conditioning/lagering before kegging?

NC pils is fine by the way. Yeast pitch and fermentation schedule are the biggest contributors to good/bad pils.


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## nosco (18/5/15)

I did a kolsch that was similar recipe that was just as cloudy but I assumed it was the yeast as it was easy to see the yeast moving when I moved it. It looked like the 2002 had clumped pretty well in the bottom but not an exact indicator of floc.

It was 3 weeks in the fermenter then cold crashed for another 4 days and then straight into the keg. I had been thinking that I could condition/lager in the keg, pour off the crud in the first pour and drink as normal. Lots to learn.

In my defence I had expected to lager for about 6 weeks but unfortunately I'm very impatient and I don't have any good beer to drink. I have a coopers thing that's nearly done which will hopefully tide me over.


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## Rocker1986 (19/5/15)

I've got a BIAB Bo Pils in the fermenter currently as well, no-chilled. I also use Brewbrite towards the end of the boil. Unfortunately didn't have enough Saaz for this particular batch, so I had to bitter it with Magnum. I used Wyeast 2001 Urquell yeast which I built up in an oversized starter. I harvested a portion of the starter into a quart jar for re-use on the next batch, then crashed the remainder of the starter for a day or two before decanting and pitching into the brew.

I used/am using the quick lager method described on the Brulosophy blog. Started the ferment at 11C, then ramped to 19C once it dropped to around 1024 SG (1047 OG) until the end of fermentation. The ramp up began on about day 4, in which I just raised the temp on the controller and let the brew come up by itself in the fridge, and it was finished fermenting in about 10 or 11 days. I then crashed it to 0C, which it sat at for a week, before yesterday adding a slurry of Polyclar, with a view to bottle it this weekend. All up from pitching to bottling it will have taken around 3.5 weeks, as opposed to my old schedule of nearly ten weeks. :blink:

I tasted the FG samples, and they were positive for warm, flat beer, so I am expecting a reasonable outcome. Have done a couple more batches since, with full Saaz hopping, that I am expecting to turn out more "authentic".

This is my first time trying Polyclar, and also my first time trying the quick lager method, so a bit of an experimental brew of sorts. Looking forward to trying one in about 3 or 4 weeks once they are carbonated to see how it all worked. 

Cheers

Kelsey


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## nosco (19/5/15)

I did a fast ferment with the wort kit lager i did but i found it still needed 6 weeks in the fridge for the flavours to mellow. It was very nice by then.

Any chance of some sample pics when you bottle this weekend? I plan on using polyclar before i keg the 2nd batch.


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## Rocker1986 (19/5/15)

Yeah fair enough, it may vary between recipes. I never noticed any improvement in my lager beers by extended ageing once bottled, but this could be because I lagered them at 0 for 5 or 6 weeks before they were bottled. If I'm happy with the resultant beer from the quick method without any extended bottle time then I'll continue to do it.

I usually bottle one clear bottle per batch as a sort of test bottle to observe colour, clarity etc but the rest goes into brown bottles. So yeah I can grab a pic of the clear bottle. It will be bottled cold but I'm not expecting it to be crystal clear at bottling time. The real test will be two or three weeks later once it's carbed up and I try a glass of it.


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## a1149913 (19/5/15)

Could be cold break. I had some recently which wouldn't drop out. Gave in and got gelatine, will now never go back. It is amazing how well it works.


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## manticle (19/5/15)

I'm fairly certain isinglass will affect some of the proteins cold break contribute as will warming up your sample - chill haze) but gelatin affects yeast particles rather than chill haze.


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## nosco (19/5/15)

The kolsch was conditioned at 4-5c but the pils is at 0c coz I have no other beers in there atm so I'll be interested to see if 0c makes a difference.

I've used gelatine a few times and have been very impressed with the results but will definitely be trying polyclar in the chilled ferment and in my next brew along with whirlfloc.


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## Rocker1986 (25/5/15)

Rocker1986 said:


> I usually bottle one clear bottle per batch as a sort of test bottle to observe colour, clarity etc but the rest goes into brown bottles. So yeah I can grab a pic of the clear bottle. It will be bottled cold but I'm not expecting it to be crystal clear at bottling time. The real test will be two or three weeks later once it's carbed up and I try a glass of it.


Bottled this batch today, this one was the first time I've tried Polyclar. Even while bottling the improvement in clarity was rather noticeable compared to previous batches. It was bottled cold. It was still a little bit hazy but I would guess that's mostly yeast/trubby shit (this batch had a crapload of trub in the FV <_<). I decided against a photo though because by the time condensation formed on the outside of the bottle it would have been a bit pointless. Will grab one in a couple of weeks or whenever I chill down a bottle to try.


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## nosco (25/5/15)

Sounds good. I got some polyclar on friday so ill crash the 2nd lot tonight and poly tomorrow, leave till next weekend and keg.

I also got some brewbright for the brew i did on friday. I noticed the difference straight away. Im thinking that my whirlfloc tabs are a bit out of date. I have had them for about a year and a half plus ive only been using half a tap per single batch. Stored in the zip lock bag they came in.

Ill keep the kegged batch un treated and then compare with the poly batch.


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## Rocker1986 (25/5/15)

I use Brewbrite as well, but I think I haven't been using enough of it. Settles out the kettle trub fine, but haven't noticed any real improvement in the final beer. Next batch I'm actually gonna weigh out the 4g or so, because I'm pretty sure one teaspoon of that stuff doesn't weigh 4g. I wonder if the Polyclar that's in it settles out in the no-chill cube and doesn't end up in the beer at all? :unsure:

It would appear the haze in the bottles today was mainly yeast; I had a look at the isolated clear bottle just before when I got home and it has warmed up but is still hazy, so obviously that is not chill haze. :lol: Will see if there is any chill haze in two weeks time though when I try one.

Got a couple of ideas for adding it in a better way next time too. This time I weighed it out, tipped some boiling water into it and whacked it on the stir plate for an hour. But in the time it took to take it down to the FV, open the FV and pour the slurry in, a reasonable amount had already settled on the bottom of the jug. Next time I'll sanitise a spoon to stir it up again right before I tip it in, and also give the beer a gentle stir to evenly spread it. B)


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## dicko (25/5/15)

With brewbrite for a 20 litre batch weigh up 4 gramms and hydrate it in 100 mls of water and add that to the boil 10 mins befor the end.

You will see the proteins clump together before your very eyes. 

With the polyclar hydrate 4 gramms in boiled and cooled water and spin it on a stir plate for 20 mins minimum and add that to the wort in the cube which should be as cold as you can get it without it freezing.
I chill mine to -1 degc and it works great particularly for pilseners.

I do filter most beer into the keg but if you leave it settle and rack carefully you will have reasonably clear beer.
The polyclar also removes bi products which may cause poor quality with extended storage but for the most part it will eliminate chill haze.
If bottling discard the first few hundred mls to clear the wort and not pick up any trub from the cube.

If you intend to do this directly into the fermenter from the primary fermentation, then save your money and forget the Polyclar as you will probably drag enough yeast into the keg or bottle to make the beer cloudy anyway.


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## dicko (25/5/15)

Bloody I pads dont work on this forum.....nothing IOS works on this forum

Mmmmm a clear pils.


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## Rocker1986 (25/5/15)

I have been doing that with the Brewbrite, just for some reason didn't think to weigh it until now. :blink:

I did use the Polyclar directly to the primary fermenter, which had been sitting at 0C for about a week before I added it, then left for another week before bottling today. I don't bother transferring to a secondary, except for bulk priming purposes. I normally find the yeast settles out quite well in the bottles once it has fermented the priming sugar and doesn't end up in the glass if I pour it carefully. The bottled beer is always crystal clear at room temperature, then goes hazy after being chilled in the fridge, so I figure it's chill haze rather than yeast causing it. If it was cloudy due to yeast, it would be cloudy regardless of temperature.

Today's one was markedly clearer at bottling time than previous batches have been. There was the expected yeast haze, but overall it was almost as clear as water, which I've never seen at bottling time, until this batch with the Polyclar.

I guess I'll find out for sure in a couple of weeks how it went.


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## nosco (25/5/15)

dicko said:


> With the polyclar hydrate 4 mls in boiled and cooled water and spin it on a stir plate for 20 mins minimum and add that to the wort in the cube which should be as cold as you can get it without it freezing.
> I chill mine to -1 degc and it works great particularly for pilseners.


Do you stir it in? I have used gelatin in the keg without stirring and it worked great. Id like to avoid stirring if I can.


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## dicko (26/5/15)

nosco said:


> Do you stir it in? I have used gelatin in the keg without stirring and it worked great. Id like to avoid stirring if I can.


Because I have my beer in a cube that it is -1 deg, I pour it in the top of the cube and replace the lid and then turn the cube on each side to mix it through the beer. I put it back into the "freedger"( freezer with an STC that runs it at -1 ) and leave it until ready for kegging.
My best results seem to be for a week or longer.
Because I roll the cube to mix is probably why I get a better result over a longer storage time.

@ Rocker 1986, Polyclar is great if chill haze is a problem and from what you have said it most certainly appears to be the case.
If you have allready noticed the difference then you will be pleased with the final result....your beer will keep longer as well and you may even notice that it improves in taste.
If you are not going to filter I feel you do need to be extremely careful that you dont disturb the trub when packaging as that part of it that has settled can taste like crap. Or run a few hundred mls off the beer first.
I have taken a gravity sample and tasted it and spat it. After filtering it tastes great.

It all seems a lot of stuffing around however the joy is when you serve a beer, particularly a pilsener, to a non brewer and you see the "wow" on their facial expression.


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## Rocker1986 (26/5/15)

Yeah this batch was a bit of a fail regarding trub levels in the fermenter. :lol: Normally it settles way below the tap level, but I don't mind ditching a few hundred mL if need be. Will keep that in mind for the next batch.

But yes, definitely noticed a difference at bottling time. My clear 'test bottle' still has yeast haze in it 24 hours later but it is settling out. It's only about halfway up the bottle now. Looking forward to trying a glass to see how it went though.


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## Rocker1986 (30/5/15)

Couldn't resist a sneaky one week taster of my first pilsner today... h34r: Obviously needs more time to carbonate and for the yeast to completely drop out, but the flavour is quite good already. The Polyclar has done a great job in eliminating pretty well all the chill haze which I'm pretty happy with. Also the yeast sediment is quite compacted and doesn't stir up easily like it does with the batch I used gelatine in previously. Will definitely be adding this to the regular schedule from now on.


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## dicko (31/5/15)

Looking great Rocker!


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## KevinR (31/5/15)

("Pwersonally I filter with a 1 micron absolute filter with great results but many on here boo the use of filters so you will have to make your mind up regarding filtering.")

If filtering,how do you go about sanitation before, ( the filter looks a good place for nasties to hide)and cleaning the crap out of the filter after.
I bought one ages ago and been scared to use it. As i put wheat in my brews they are usually a little cloudy. 
Will filtering effect the head or the tast?
Kev


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## nosco (31/5/15)

That does look good rocker. Especially after a short time.

Mine isnt looking so good. I might not have done it correctly.

I put poly in the fermenter on Wednesday. I put the mixture as directed on the stir plate as alot of people suggest but most of it ended up on the side of the flask. So i took it off but the polyclar didn't look dissolved. Is it supposed to be? Didnt look like is was going too. I stirred it up for about 10 minutes but it didnt seem to change.

I stirred a bit a whirlpool in the fermenter without stirring up the yeast and tipped it in. 4 days later it hasnt changed. It was only at 2-3c however. Now that ive taken the other fermenter out ive dropped to 0c. It maybe that it will be clearer in a glass out of the fermenter but ill wait another 3 days and see.


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## Black n Tan (31/5/15)

nosco said:


> I put poly in the fermenter on Wednesday. I put the mixture as directed on the stir plate as alot of people suggest but most of it ended up on the side of the flask. So i took it off but the polyclar didn't look dissolved. Is it supposed to be? Didnt look like is was going too. I stirred it up for about 10 minutes but it didnt seem to change.
> 
> I stirred a bit a whirlpool in the fermenter without stirring up the yeast and tipped it in. 4 days later it hasnt changed. It was only at 2-3c however. Now that ive taken the other fermenter out ive dropped to 0c. It maybe that it will be clearer in a glass out of the fermenter but ill wait another 3 days and see.


polyclar will not dissolve, it will form a slurry. I typically stir it for 30 minutes but it settles pretty quickly so get it into the fermenter quickly. Add some extra water to rinse it off the side of the flask. Colder is better so give it a few more days at 0C or even lower.


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## dicko (31/5/15)

KevinR said:


> ("Pwersonally I filter with a 1 micron absolute filter with great results but many on here boo the use of filters so you will have to make your mind up regarding filtering.")
> 
> If filtering,how do you go about sanitation before, ( the filter looks a good place for nasties to hide)and cleaning the crap out of the filter after.
> I bought one ages ago and been scared to use it. As i put wheat in my brews they are usually a little cloudy.
> ...


I clean my filter element with hot Napisan.
After a gentle rinse under the tap I drop the filter back into the clear housing and pour the hot napisan solution into the middle of the filter.

By doing it this way you wash the particles from the filter from the inside edge to the outside, thus reversing the flow that the beer was filtered.
By doing it this way you extend the life of the filter because you aren't forcing the particles through the actual filter membrane.

I do this rinse twice and the element becomes clean, I then rinse it off under the tap and then replace it into the clear canister again and fill the entire unit with Starsan.
I screw the top on and leave it standing in Starsan until next use when it is ready to go with a just a shake off of the Starsan

I do need to add that I do not use C02 to force the beer through the filter, I only use gravity and I have found that this extends the life of the filter dramatically.

I does not seem to affect the head and if you want a cloudy wheat beer then don't filter it.

Next time I filter if I have time I will take a few pics and post them on here.


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## Rocker1986 (31/5/15)

Thanks Dicko  was quite impressed with how well it worked.


Nosco, I noticed the same thing with the Polyclar when I used it. It stirred up fine on the stir plate but by the time I took the jug downstairs to the fermenter and tipped it in, a fair bit had already settled out and ended up sticking to the side of the jug. I didn't want to use tap water to rinse it out of the jug to avoid infection but it seems to have worked anyway. Next time I will take a spoon with me and sanitise it, then I can give the mixture a good stir right before I tip it into the beer, and maybe give the beer itself a gentle stir to mix it more evenly as well.


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## nosco (8/6/15)

I keeged the second 1/2 of the batch last night that had the polyclar in it. I took a sample from each keg and i cannot tell the difference between the 2. Interestingly they both taste pretty similar. Its a bit too sweet so i dont think it fermented out as much as it should have but it tastes like a bo pils (i think) Something didnt work with this brew. I think my whirlflock tabs are out of date but i couldnt put it all down to that. Is bo pils malt always like this? Ill try some gelitine tomorrow night.


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## nosco (8/6/15)

As you can see very hazy.


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## dicko (9/6/15)

If it is the Floor Malted Bo Pils that you used it may benefit from a stepped mash to assist in breaking down sme protein.

I have a bag of it but haven't opened it yet. Until now I have been using the ordinary stuff from Weyermann.

I am not sure that adding polyclar to the fermenter at room temperature will do much as it is designed to work in chilled beer as far as I am lead to believe.

Here is one that I prepared earlier  crappy phone pic but you get the idea....


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## nosco (9/6/15)

I used the polyclar in the fermenter at about 1-2c for 10 days. I had it at -1 for the first day or 2 but i didnt think my little ferm fridge could handle it so i dialed it back a bit. Maybe i didnt mix the poly up enough or the wort when i tipped it in? Dunno.


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## Black n Tan (9/6/15)

Polyclar VT is designed to remove chill haze, so the first thing to understand is whether your beer is suffering from chill haze. If the haze dissipates as the beers warms then you have chill haze. If not then it may be due to yeast. Did you use gelatine or isinglass to remove the yeast? How long have you been lagering? Kegged or bottled? Did you bulk lager?


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## nosco (9/6/15)

The glass on the left has been at 0-1c for 4 weeks now and hasn't changed a bit over that time. The glasses in the pics where both left on the bench for about 25mins so I don't think it's chill haze. I've only used polyclar so far.


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## Black n Tan (9/6/15)

The polyclar won't remove the yeast and I suspect this is your problem. is the beer kegged or bottled?


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## nosco (9/6/15)

Kegged. The first half of the batch went in 4 weeks ago and the second half on Saturday.


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## Black n Tan (9/6/15)

The first few pours will always be hazy as the years settles. I would assess again in a few more days after you have pulled a few more beers to see if there is a difference. I use polyclar routinely on my lagers, but recently did a lager without polyclar and it certainly has chill haze, so the product works.


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## nosco (9/6/15)

I didn't mix the polyclar anywhere near as long as most people say they do so maybe that had something to do with it. I got confused by it not dissolving.

I have been "sampling" the first batch for a while now so no chance of sediment there. I ran about a pint of the second batch as well. I guess time and gelatin will tell.


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## nosco (26/6/15)

Lol. Reading the polyclar thread and realised that your supposed to add it to boiling water. Such a noob. No wonder it didnt work


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## Black n Tan (26/6/15)

nosco said:


> Lol. Reading the polyclar thread and realised that your supposed to add it to boiling water. Such a noob. No wonder it didnt work


You are meant to hydrate it by mixing in warm water for 1 hours, but not boiling water. It will just turn into large PVPP balls if you add boiling water. Where did you see this advice?


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## Rocker1986 (27/6/15)

I've read that advice too - maybe not boiling water, but it said to boil the water and mix the Polyclar into it for an hour. Can't remember where now either.

When I used it on my pilsner I weighed out the Polyclar in a pyrex jug, boiled some water in the kettle and tipped that into it, then put it on the stir plate for an hour. It didn't turn into large balls, perhaps because the water drops about 15 degrees when it gets tipped into the jug. Whatever the reasons, it worked brilliantly in my batch. The beer was clear as water.


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## Black n Tan (27/6/15)

Using cooled (warm) previously boiled water remakes sense. The boiling de-oxygenates the water so you won't introduce oxygen into your beer unnecessarily. I added Brebrite (which also contains PVPP) as a powder to my boiling wort once and it all clumped toagtether in one big ball and was consequently less effective.


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## nosco (27/6/15)

It was at the start of the poly thread from about 8 years ago so maybe a bit out dated but I'm still a noob lol. I just used cooled water from the kettle which is why it didn't "mix in". Gelatin didn't do anything to clear up the Pilsner but it is tasting really good. Excellent head retention. 

I haven't tried the 2nd keg that had polyclar and gelatin so I'll wait and see.


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## Rocker1986 (27/6/15)

Black n Tan said:


> I added Brebrite (which also contains PVPP) as a powder to my boiling wort once and it all clumped toagtether in one big ball and was consequently less effective.


 :lol: I did this once myself, and once only, for exactly the same reason. Now I mix it up in water and whack it on the stir plate to mix it into a slurry. Much better.


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