# Garden Hose water - is it so bad?



## kahlerisms

Rather than hijack Jaypes' thread here, I thought I'd start a new one on the topic of garden hose water. 

So, continuing on from comments in that thread: 






bcp said:


> Drinking from most garden hoses (PVC) puts you at risk of a nice dose of lead. If you want to use a hose, just make sure it's a food grade plastic.



I'd be keen on more information on this. At the moment I lug half-fermenter loads from a tap in the laundry back to my kettle, but this week I'm looking at taking the head off a shower near the brewery that isn't used and running some sort of hose from that out to the brewery - a garden hose was my first thought (I no longer have to lug water plus the benefit of being able to start with it hot). 

*1) *What do I need to look out for? I'm not too concerned about chlorine in my water for the time being, lets just say this week's goal is not making the water any worse than when it comes straight out of the tap. 

*2) *Next week's goal might be putting a filter on the end of my hose and making my water better than it was out of the tap - I want something economical - not necessarily inexpensive up front, but the kind of thing where it's low maintenance and low cost of ongoing parts - the $25 Keg King filters are my first through - whack a tap nipple on each end and I'm done?


Looking for advice and wisdom.


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## mxd

if you goto bunnings or a camping joint you'll find food grade hoses, there are generally used for Caravans.


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## Yob

Get food grage hose and never worry about it again... I put one of those splitters on the tap with FG hose on one side and the garden hose still connected to the other..

done

bun-rips will sell you (light blue) FG Hose.

Yob


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## brendo

i've done the same as Yob has suggested - been using the light blue food grade hose from Bunnings for 18 months now and much happier with it. I also run it through a two stage filter - sediment and then carbon.


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## QldKev

Yep the good old food grade hose from Bunnings or caravan supply stores

If you do use your garden hose, let water run for a while prior to using the water, to ensure any water that has sat in the hose has been flushed away. And taste it, if it tastes like hose don;t use it.


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## Yob

brendo said:


> i've done the same as Yob has suggested - been using the light blue food grade hose from Bunnings for 18 months now and much happier with it. I also run it through a two stage filter - sediment and then carbon.


Man after my own mind, been looking at filters for the last couple of months... just cant seem to make up my mind... whats your flow rate like Brendo?


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## hsb

I have a blue hose too, don't filter. Is letting the water sit in HLT overnight helpful to reduce chlorine? Or does it just all end up back in solution


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## sp0rk

Also, best not to use hot water from your water heater
that water can contain a lot of lead, and not to mention large amounts of minerals due to deposits


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## Dunkelbrau

What about those instant gas got water systems? I fill my shitty old coffee jug with the hot water tap..


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## Wolfy

I also use one of the blue/white food-grade hoses, got it from Ebay then picked it up from the hose manufacturer that just happened to be up the road from here - then let it sit in the HLT over-night to reduce any chlorine that is in the water.


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## brendo

Yob said:


> Man after my own mind, been looking at filters for the last couple of months... just cant seem to make up my mind... whats your flow rate like Brendo?


Not as fast as mains, but pretty good really and worth the effort I think.




Wolfy said:


> I also use one of the blue/white food-grade hoses, got it from Ebay then picked it up from the hose manufacturer that just happened to be up the road from here - then let it sit in the HLT over-night to reduce any chlorine that is in the water.


My water generally stands overnight as well as I generally prep the night before, set a timer with an OTS element and wake up to hot water ready to mash in. Standing water overnight is fine for chlorine - it is not an overly stable product and does tend to drive off standing water.

HOWEVER, my unstanding is that because of this, water companies use chloramines instead as they are more stable and stay in solution longer. Leaving the water overnight will not drive off the chloramines. That's why I go to the trouble of filtering and with an inline system it really isn't an issue. I also filter my drinking water inside.

I am no expert in this space, but's it is what I do and am happy with the results.


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## Sam England

Arvo all,
I'm interested to see where all of this lead is meant to be coming from and the source for this comment. All plumbing fittings connected to a mains supply needs to be potable ie pass AS4020 and therefore can't impart a taste to the water. There are also very low limits on the lead content in brass and the structure doesn't allow the lead if any (zinc is the main issue) to leach out if it's compliant. I agree with the food grade comments with regards a hose if you're planning on leaving the water sitting in it, but a quick flush will address this as the only contaminants will probably be plasticisers which leach slowly over time. If they leaked quickly you would find your hose extremely brittle very quickly.
I'm happy to be corrected on the above, but I've been working in the plastics/plumbing industry for 15 years and have never heard the lead issue with modern plumbing.

@ Jurt - the water comes in through a copper coil is heated and leaves the copper coil, therefore no issues. You may get some scaling coming through, but that is normally just a mineral build up on the inside of the pipes that flakes off due to the application of heat.

I have heard of people recommending not to drink the water directly from a hot water storage unit as it's not at a hot enough temp to sterilise all bugs, but the water supply should be clean on entry and therefore nothing should grow in there. Whether there is any fact in this or not I'm not too sure.


Cheers,
BB


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## bum

brendo said:


> HOWEVER, my unstanding is that because of this, water companies use chloramines instead as they are more stable and stay in solution longer.


Pretty sure all Victorian water authorities use chlorine not chloramines (certainly the metro water supply). Chloramines are used to clean the pipes themselves as required (i.e. not often) so your water may still have trace amounts at times.


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## brendo

bum said:


> Pretty sure all Victorian water authorities use chlorine not chloramines (certainly the metro water supply). Chloramines are used to clean the pipes themselves as required (i.e. not often) so your water may still have trace amounts at times.


yep, seems you are right (got my googlefu on), so leaving it overnight may well disapate any chlorine. However, I tend to need to fill my HLT a couple of times across the brew day due to making multiple batches, so filtering is a better option for me.


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## bum

I don't mean to suggest you're wasting your time or anything. I think filtering is probably a good idea anyway. Looking into getting a water filter for the brewery myself.


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## Phoney

Boiling water drives off chlorine.


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## Batz

I have the blue food grade hose now but for years I used a plain garden hose that I just ran for a minute before filling my HLT. I can't say I ever noticed any plastic hose flavours.

Batz


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## Robbo2234

Bah! I have drunk from a garden hose all my life and both my heads and six legs are ok!

I just water the grass a bit first to get rid of the stuff in the hose all good.

any one wanting to get rid of chlorine / ammonia can get water ager from the pet shop I used this when I had my fish tanks up.
I don't know how safe it is to drink as I never did, but this fish lived in it.

letting water stand over night wont get rid of chlormine as the chlorine is bound to ammonia and wont evaporate. the ager breaks this bond


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## Wolfy

brendo said:


> ..
> My water generally stands overnight as well as I generally prep the night before, set a timer with an OTS element and wake up to hot water ready to mash in. Standing water overnight is fine for chlorine - it is not an overly stable product and does tend to drive off standing water.
> 
> HOWEVER, my unstanding is that because of this, water companies use chloramines instead as they are more stable and stay in solution longer. Leaving the water overnight will not drive off the chloramines. That's why I go to the trouble of filtering and with an inline system it really isn't an issue. I also filter my drinking water inside.


I telephoned South East Water (water supply company) and eventually spoke to some Service Delivery manager-type person to confirm where my water came from (Cardinia, which is logical since it's just 'up' the road) and that it was treated with chlorine and not chloramines. So should be fine ... I hope.


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## mark0

sp0rk said:


> Also, best not to use hot water from your water heater
> that water can contain a lot of lead, and not to mention large amounts of minerals due to deposits


if the minerals deposit in the hot water service, then the minerals aren't in the water anymore?
Saving any dissolution of metals, (doubtful given the throughput and average life of these appliances). Water from HWS should be as safe as tap water.

Happy to see peer reviewed scientific eveidence to the contrary.


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## Malted

Yob said:


> Man after my own mind, been looking at filters for the last couple of months... just cant seem to make up my mind... whats your flow rate like Brendo?


I purchased this product and am very happy with it: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-CARAVAN-Water-Filter-Kit-Heavy-Construction-White-Bracket-Filters-1-4GWC-/230911371843?pt=AU_SmallKitchenAppliances&hash=item35c363ea43
There are cheaper ones available but i would highly reccommend this brand, it is very strong and robust. UV rated so good for outdoor use. Pressure rated up to 120psi.

With this particular unit: it can flow to 45L/min but it is reccommended to run them at 15L/min "to maximise the efficiency of the carbon filter".

It has 3/4" female threads in it and I got some adaptor things from the green shed that present a garden hose click-on nipple. Some food grade hose and click on fittings and it is all good. The thing is big enough that it can be free standing on my pavers between the tap and the brewery. To my mind it is just as easy as an 'inline' unit (since it will free stand) but I can replace/clean the filters in it.

Edit: It is a big unit (just like me).


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## kahlerisms

So the water passes through both filters? Fill rate looks good and I don't mind that up front cost if the maintenance is low.

Where can I get replacement filters? How often do I need to clean/replace the filters?


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## brendo

Malted said:


> I purchased this product and am very happy with it: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-CARAVAN-Water-Filter-Kit-Heavy-Construction-White-Bracket-Filters-1-4GWC-/230911371843?pt=AU_SmallKitchenAppliances&hash=item35c363ea43
> There are cheaper ones available but i would highly reccommend this brand, it is very strong and robust. UV rated so good for outdoor use. Pressure rated up to 120psi.
> 
> With this particular unit: it can flow to 45L/min but it is reccommended to run them at 15L/min "to maximise the efficiency of the carbon filter".
> 
> It has 3/4" female threads in it and I got some adaptor things from the green shed that present a garden hose click-on nipple. Some food grade hose and click on fittings and it is all good. The thing is big enough that it can be free standing on my pavers between the tap and the brewery. To my mind it is just as easy as an 'inline' unit (since it will free stand) but I can replace/clean the filters in it.
> 
> Edit: It is a big unit (just like me).


very similar to what is mounted to my brew stand - however mine are white. just replaced the filters last brew day.


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## brendo

kahlerisms said:


> So the water passes through both filters? Fill rate looks good and I don't mind that up front cost if the maintenance is low.
> 
> Where can I get replacement filters? How often do I need to clean/replace the filters?


pretty much universal - Bunnings stock filters, plumbing supplies, irragation, etc


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## sp0rk

galvanised pipes with lead solder were used well into the 80's
I'm pretty sure a large number of us brewers live in houses that were built in the 80's or earlier
just because lead has been removed from pipes being installed now, doesn't mean that it's not there in older houses
Even brand new brass taps can still have upto 5% lead in them

I'm happy enough to wait another 15 minutes or so for my water to come up to strike temp


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## TidalPete

I've been using a pale blue food-grade hose for years which works well for me in conjunction with a carbon filter but is a PITA to coil/uncoil. Another brewer has a green (IIRC) food-grade hose from Bunnings which is more flexible by far. Just saying.


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## Batz

TidalPete said:


> I've been using a pale blue food-grade hose for years which works well for me in conjunction with a carbon filter but is a PITA to coil/uncoil. Another brewer has a green (IIRC) food-grade hose from Bunnings which is more flexible by far. Just saying.


I bought a cheap garden hose reeler for mine, seems to work well and makes storage much easier.

Batz


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## Camo6

Malted said:


> I purchased this product and am very happy with it: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-CARAVAN-Water-Filter-Kit-Heavy-Construction-White-Bracket-Filters-1-4GWC-/230911371843?pt=AU_SmallKitchenAppliances&hash=item35c363ea43
> There are cheaper ones available but i would highly reccommend this brand, it is very strong and robust. UV rated so good for outdoor use. Pressure rated up to 120psi.
> 
> With this particular unit: it can flow to 45L/min but it is reccommended to run them at 15L/min "to maximise the efficiency of the carbon filter".
> 
> It has 3/4" female threads in it and I got some adaptor things from the green shed that present a garden hose click-on nipple. Some food grade hose and click on fittings and it is all good. The thing is big enough that it can be free standing on my pavers between the tap and the brewery. To my mind it is just as easy as an 'inline' unit (since it will free stand) but I can replace/clean the filters in it.
> 
> Edit: It is a big unit (just like me).


Thinking about something like this for my new rig. Looking at their products they seem to do a reasonably priced RO system (3stage wallmount $128). Is it worth the extra cost? Does anyone use anything similar? I live in Melbourne so water is pretty soft but figure it can only add reliability to water additions and batch consistency. Appreciate any advice.
Cam


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## TidalPete

> Looking at their products they seem to do a reasonably priced RO system (3stage wallmount $128). Is it worth the extra cost?


Absolutely!
Hoping to do the same ASAP.


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## Camo6

TidalPete said:


> Absolutely!
> Hoping to do the same ASAP.


Thanks mate, appreciate your advice. My wife however does not. ;-)


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## eamonnfoley

+1 on camping food grade hose. Food grade hoses should be used for all brewing applications. Anything hot side should be silicon or commerical brewery style hosing otherwise you are risking off-flavours.


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## Nedasaurus1

ok ive been meaning to ask this one...all i have is rainwater tanks...two huge tanks actually......anyprobs there do you guys think?


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## hsb

TidalPete said:


> I've been using a pale blue food-grade hose for years which works well for me in conjunction with a carbon filter but is a PITA to coil/uncoil. Another brewer has a green (IIRC) food-grade hose from Bunnings which is more flexible by far. Just saying.


You've just got to coil it properly and it'll always coil/uncoil naturally.
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=how+to+coil+a+cable


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## Yob

Naa Ned, plenty of people use Tank water for their brewing... mostly these guys are AG nutters and are boiling their water liquor as a part of the process.. if you have had no problems till now, no need to change anything, if you start to notice problems then have a look at doing something about it then.

You also wont have the chlorine that has been discussed as you are getting it from the sky not the town supply.

:icon_cheers:


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## bcp

Blue Baggers said:


> Arvo all,
> I'm interested to see where all of this lead is meant to be coming from and the source for this comment. All plumbing fittings connected to a mains supply needs to be potable ie pass AS4020 and therefore can't impart a taste to the water. There are also very low limits on the lead content in brass and the structure doesn't allow the lead if any (zinc is the main issue) to leach out if it's compliant. I agree with the food grade comments with regards a hose if you're planning on leaving the water sitting in it, but a quick flush will address this as the only contaminants will probably be plasticisers which leach slowly over time. If they leaked quickly you would find your hose extremely brittle very quickly.
> I'm happy to be corrected on the above, but I've been working in the plastics/plumbing industry for 15 years and have never heard the lead issue with modern plumbing.
> 
> @ Jurt - the water comes in through a copper coil is heated and leaves the copper coil, therefore no issues. You may get some scaling coming through, but that is normally just a mineral build up on the inside of the pipes that flakes off due to the application of heat.
> 
> I have heard of people recommending not to drink the water directly from a hot water storage unit as it's not at a hot enough temp to sterilise all bugs, but the water supply should be clean on entry and therefore nothing should grow in there. Whether there is any fact in this or not I'm not too sure.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> BB


The lead comes from PVC - it's added as a stabiliser.
http://www.pvc.org/en/p/lead-stabilisers

Yes, letting the hose run would reduce this significantly. But when I brew I use 34 litres or so and boil it down, then pass the remaining 24 litres through my body as a filter. The exposure may be small, but I think there is sufficient toxic exposure in my life without adding lead, BPA pthalates to the mix if I can easily use food grade plastics. 
http://www.mnn.com/your-home/organic-farming-gardening/blogs/lead-in-your-garden-hose-study-finds-high-levels-of-toxic-

Good article on plastics here:
http://www.choice.com.au/reviews-and-tests/food-and-health/food-and-drink/safety/plastic-food-containers.aspx


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## manticle

brendo said:


> Not as fast as mains, but pretty good really and worth the effort I think.
> 
> 
> 
> My water generally stands overnight as well as I generally prep the night before, set a timer with an OTS element and wake up to hot water ready to mash in. Standing water overnight is fine for chlorine - it is not an overly stable product and does tend to drive off standing water.
> 
> HOWEVER, my unstanding is that because of this, water companies use chloramines instead as they are more stable and stay in solution longer. Leaving the water overnight will not drive off the chloramines. That's why I go to the trouble of filtering and with an inline system it really isn't an issue. I also filter my drinking water inside.
> 
> I am no expert in this space, but's it is what I do and am happy with the results.


Not Melbourne water Brendo, at least not last time I checked (some time last year). Should be on the melbourne Water website.

Heating water to strike temp is more than enough to drive off chlorine, which starts coming out of solution at 20 degrees.

I use water from my hot tap which comes out at 70 degrees in my new place. Saves a lot of energy and time on brewday.


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## breakbeer

I also use hot water straight from the tap, might look into this food grade hose though.

edit: just realised the hose I use IS food grade, it's just not Blue


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## Batz

Nedasaurus1 said:


> ok ive been meaning to ask this one...all i have is rainwater tanks...two huge tanks actually......anyprobs there do you guys think?



That's the only water we have, it's great for brewing.
I adjust the water for my ales.


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## slash22000

How exactly do these giant caravan carbon filters effect water chemistry? I mean, if you know the chemistry of your local water, how will it change once it leaves the filter?

Incidentally, does anybody have any tips on getting water chemistry information in Australia? Pretty sure it's Power & Water who operate in Darwin but asking them about a water report I may as well be asking them to translate an ancient Egyptian tablet.


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## manticle

You should be able to find or request a typical water analysis. I think they are legally bound to provide that information.


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## Sam England

bcp said:


> The lead comes from PVC - it's added as a stabiliser.
> http://www.pvc.org/en/p/lead-stabilisers
> 
> Yes, letting the hose run would reduce this significantly. But when I brew I use 34 litres or so and boil it down, then pass the remaining 24 litres through my body as a filter. The exposure may be small, but I think there is sufficient toxic exposure in my life without adding lead, BPA pthalates to the mix if I can easily use food grade plastics.
> http://www.mnn.com/your-home/organic-farming-gardening/blogs/lead-in-your-garden-hose-study-finds-high-levels-of-toxic-
> 
> Good article on plastics here:
> http://www.choice.com.au/reviews-and-tests/food-and-health/food-and-drink/safety/plastic-food-containers.aspx


It depends on the PVC your looking at and obviously the website too!!  Plenty of bias from both camps and I'm sure the truth sits somewhere in the middle.

From the Vinyl camp:-
"Lead compounds were traditionally used as heat stabilisers, primarily in rigid PVC such as pipes and gutters. They have been used safely for decades. The stabiliser is tightly bound into the PVC matrix limiting leaching from the surface of PVC and their use is not considered to have contributed significantly to lead in the environment. However, given the community's concern about lead as a toxic heavy metal, and the potential for workers to be exposed to lead in stabiliser manufacturing and use, the industry in Australia (and elsewhere) committed to phase out its use in PVC products." http://www.vinyl.org.au/pvc-the-environment/pvc-environmental-faqs

Interestingly the research linked to the high lead comments in your post both used the following procedure. There's no way I'd drink water that's been sitting in a hose for three days either!!
"The hose was completely filled with water and each end was clamped-off to prevent water from contacting brass fitting. The hose was placed in a yard in full sunlight for three days (72 hours). The hose was unclamped and the water sample was directly collected from the hose into glass sample containers." http://www.healthystuff.org/findings.050312.garden.php

Mainly due to convenience, I personally use the garden hose (after a quick flush) for filling, but anything in contact with the wort from then on is silicone due to high temp leaching of plasticisers which I 100% agree on.
Each to their own though with what they feel comfortable with.

Cheers,
BB


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## beersom

sp0rk said:


> galvanised pipes with lead solder were used well into the 80's
> I'm pretty sure a large number of us brewers live in houses that were built in the 80's or earlier
> just because lead has been removed from pipes being installed now, doesn't mean that it's not there in older houses
> Even brand new brass taps can still have upto 5% lead in them
> 
> I'm happy enough to wait another 15 minutes or so for my water to come up to strike temp


Former plumber and son of a plumber, now a brewer ....always obsessed with water quality
Galvanised pipes were never soldered.... ever.
By the 1980s houses were nearly always plumbed with a combination of copper, brass and poly piping. For the 100 or so years prior threaded galvanised piping and copper tails was the norm.
When I was a plumber we specialised in maintenence and so I saw a lot of old water supply pipe work. I only once ever out of thousands of jobs saw lead used in water supply piping (drainage many times , supply once) and that was on an ancient old vanity that was supplied at low pressure from a tank. The vanity and the house it was in hadn't been used in many decades and we were retro fitting it for a renovation as it couldn't take mains pressure and that pipework had been rendered illegal many, many decades before.
AS3500 does not allow lead in water supply piping. (as3500 is the code governing plumbing and drainage in AUS/NZ)
It is also well and truly safe to drink water from a hot water system.


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## hsb

Isn't the issue with hot water tanks more to do with metals _in the water itself_, rather than the plumbing, becoming concentrated by the heating elements? ?



> Hot water systems generally contain more dissolved minerals and metals, due to the heating process.


From:
http://www0.health.nsw.gov.au/pubs/2004/pdf/drinkwater.pdf


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## kahlerisms

None of you have convinced me that my hose or hot water system with ruin my beer (or my insides) yet.


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## Yob

there isnt anobody who didnt care about water quality left alive to 'convince' you,

just the ones that do


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## Goose

> that water can contain a lot of lead


geez, am i showering and washing up in lead ? :unsure:


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## bum

kahlerisms said:


> None of you have convinced me that my hose or hot water system with ruin my beer (or my insides) yet.


Is this high on anyone's to-do list?


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Hose = arse
If you like eating arse go for it. :icon_vomit:
Nev


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## mark0

hsb said:


> Isn't the issue with hot water tanks more to do with metals _in the water itself_, rather than the plumbing, becoming concentrated by the heating elements? ?
> 
> 
> From:
> http://www0.health.nsw.gov.au/pubs/2004/pdf/drinkwater.pdf



the hot water unit is a sealed system. you can't concentrate anything in a sealed system. try boiling your wort with the lid on and see how far you get!

water with mineral content (ie normal water) goes in, gets heated, sometimes leave minerals in the HWS, then leaves the HWS. Therefore the water leaving has less minerals than it had to start with. The heating process drives the minerals to precipitate, so they arent likely to spontaneously redissolve into hot water!

nothing is created (excluding heat itself) or destroyed inside the HWS, what goes in one side comes out the other side.

whether the water gets heated in your HWS or your hot liquor tank makes SFA difference to the water. Your power bill might say different things.


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## bum

Some plumber on here a while back explained the issue being something to do with dissolved metals from certain sacrificial anode types. Can't remember the full details as I have nfi what type I have so the knowledge doesn't help me at all.


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## Batz

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Hose = arse
> If you like eating arse go for it. :icon_vomit:
> Nev


Taking from experience Nev ?


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## kahlerisms

I bought a new hose - it will be used for brewing only. It won't be left in the sun or with water in it. I won't use the first few litres. I boil it anyway.

I'll also invest in one of those caravan filter thingos in a few weeks.


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## pk.sax

Difference between caravan hose from buggerings and other hose was so small it wasn't worth stuffing around with anything else.

To each their own. I'm highly skeptical of the Chinese shit we import. Unless it specifically says its so or I can work it out its so, never take for granted that its followed the much vaunted precious 'Australian standards'. Especially in products that are so low value that its not worth anyone's time or money testing them as standard practice. Business' will try and cut any cost they can, most are run by homos... Err, accountants.


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## TidalPete

> To each their own. I'm highly skeptical of the Chinese shit we import. Unless it specifically says its so or I can work it out its so, never take for granted that its followed the much vaunted precious 'Australian standards'. Especially in products that are so low value that its not worth anyone's time or money testing them as standard practice. Business' will try and cut any cost they can, most are run by homos... Err, accountants.


+1 multiplied.


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## dougsbrew

so accountants are homos and arse = hose..enemas 4 bean counters.. great thread. lol.
btw from q2 of OP running hot water through filter is not a good idea, pasteing snippet -
The biggest problem with hot water is the sloughing off of chemicals/compounds which had been adsorbed to the filter surface. Heat causes the carbon pores to open up, reducing the filtering effectiveness, and resulting in lead or chemicals being released into the water. This performance degradation occurs even though hot water is usually below 212 degrees F, and therefore not hot enough to alter the raw materials or cause damage to the filter itself. If someone does run hot water through the filter, immediately run cold water through the filter for at least 3 minutes, to cool and flush its contents. Do not drink hot water passed through the filter.


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## Batz

dougsbrew said:


> so accountants are homos and arse = hose..enemas 4 bean counters.. great thread. lol.


Where did you pick that up? 

I didn't think accountants where homos, but I'll be more careful next time I visit mine.....he did look at my bum and scratch his dick last time??? :lol: :lol:


OK I see where you got that from, don't let it worry you.


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## DUANNE

dougsbrew said:


> so accountants are homos and arse = hose..enemas 4 bean counters.. great thread. lol.
> btw from q2 of OP running hot water through filter is not a good idea, pasteing snippet -
> The biggest problem with hot water is the sloughing off of chemicals/compounds which had been adsorbed to the filter surface. Heat causes the carbon pores to open up, reducing the filtering effectiveness, and resulting in lead or chemicals being released into the water. This performance degradation occurs even though hot water is usually below 212 degrees F, and therefore not hot enough to alter the raw materials or cause damage to the filter itself. If someone does run hot water through the filter, immediately run cold water through the filter for at least 3 minutes, to cool and flush its contents. Do not drink hot water passed through the filter.


so if youre carbon filter is near the end of its life could you run hot water through it to clear out the nasties its collected and get a bit more use out of it?


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## dougsbrew

BEERHOG said:


> so if youre carbon filter is near the end of its life could you run hot water through it to clear out the nasties its collected and get a bit more use out of it?


i was thinking the same thing, though id imagine not, i think what its saying is it wouldnt release all contaniments, just the more loosely held ones.


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## Glot

Try poly pipe if you want a cheaper option.
Water from a storage hot water heater is classed as non potable. Mainly due to the possibility of bacteria breeding in one set too cool.


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## GalBrew

brendo said:


> i've done the same as Yob has suggested - been using the light blue food grade hose from Bunnings for 18 months now and much happier with it. I also run it through a two stage filter - sediment and then carbon.


Same here. Good combo.


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## Crofty

so assuming garden hose = bad - is there concerns with filling my pot straight from the outside tap? or should I be running buckets out to my kettle from inside the house?


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## Judanero

FWIW I used to do this ^^ most of the time with no noticeable (to my palate) difference. I now fill cubes with hot water from inside and take to the garage/brew area but only have done this to reduce the time it takes to get to mash in temps.


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## Yob

I have a splitter on the tap and fill with food grade hose... Simple


----------



## punkin

Crofty said:


> so assuming garden hose = bad - is there concerns with filling my pot straight from the outside tap? or should I be running buckets out to my kettle from inside the house?



Outside tap water is the lowest grade water supplied to your house.

The best is kitchen water, if you can't use that then bathroom water is ok, but laundry water is pretty rank and garden tap water is pretty much only good for splashing on the plants and giving to the dog to drink. 

Just try it with a glassful from different taps, you'll see. 
If you have a sink in the toilet, don't try drinking out of that.



Insist on kitchen water.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

punkin said:


> Outside tap water is the lowest grade water supplied to your house.
> 
> The best is kitchen water, if you can't use that then bathroom water is ok, but laundry water is pretty rank and garden tap water is pretty much only good for splashing on the plants and giving to the dog to drink.
> 
> Just try it with a glassful from different taps, you'll see.
> If you have a sink in the toilet, don't try drinking out of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Insist on kitchen water.


I concur.
Nev


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## Yob

theres different water at your house? Pretty sure I have only the one supply coming in... am I missing something here? :blink:


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## Camo6

The water out of the kitchen tap tastes a lot better than the bathroom at my place. Suspect it's because it gets the most use therefore cleaner pipes?


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## JDW81

Same at my place Yob. All comes in at one spot and then is distributed through the house through an uncomplicated series of copper pipes. I drink water from all taps (inside and out) and it all tastes the same to me.


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## Batz

punkin said:


> Outside tap water is the lowest grade water supplied to your house.
> 
> The best is kitchen water, if you can't use that then bathroom water is ok, but laundry water is pretty rank and garden tap water is pretty much only good for splashing on the plants and giving to the dog to drink.
> 
> Just try it with a glassful from different taps, you'll see.
> If you have a sink in the toilet, don't try drinking out of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Insist on kitchen water.



At last a sensible and informative post in this thread.

Batz


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## Screwtop

Ah why not!


Batz do you remember those experiments? Turns out bathroom water is the best choice for washing beer glasses. 

Screwy


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## Batz

Screwtop said:


> Ah why not!
> 
> 
> Batz do you remember those experiments? Turns out bathroom water is the best choice for washing beer glasses.
> 
> Screwy



I had almost had forgotten about that Screwy, that's the whole reason we moved the dishwasher into the bathroom.


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## Crofty

OK thanks guys.

I was not aware of this, best I start filling buckets from the kitchen in future.

When I'm looking towards filters, do you guys have any guidance for me towards what I should look for? just starting to think about the water, so anything to put me in the right direction would be great!

Dave


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## Batz

:icon_offtopic:

More on washing glasses, back in Sept. 2004 ! 


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/3101-cleaning-your-beer-glasses/?hl=glasses


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## jc64

My water tastes the same from all my taps inside and out. Same for the water supply.


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## GalBrew

My water tastes the same out of all the indoor plumbing. I wouldn't use the outdoor tap due to the crappy degrading gal pipes, but I fill up via the blue food grade hose from the laundry tap, which tastes identical to my kitchen tap.


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## jyo

Over the last couple of years I think Perth water has been replaced with lightly filtered mud, so point of fill is irrelevant.

But I do draw the line at filling from the toilet.

Green garden hose makes your beer taste like green garden hose.


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## s_t_r_o_b_e

How do you find out if your outdoor water supply is different/the same as your indoor supply? I'm sure our house only has one point of entry for water. 

Trying to determine whether to avoid outdoor water altogether (really inconvenient) or just replace the house with a food grade hose.


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## QldKev

s_t_r_o_b_e said:


> How do you find out if your outdoor water supply is different/the same as your indoor supply? I'm sure our house only has one point of entry for water.
> 
> Trying to determine whether to avoid outdoor water altogether (really inconvenient) or just replace the house with a food grade hose.



Couple of ways,

if it is from a source you would need 2 water meters, or a dual meter setup. They are not going to supply water for free. Also I think they would have to mark non-drinking water?
otherwise if it's from a rain water tank it is mandatory (in Qld) for the tap to be clearly marked as rain water. In my place I have one outside tap, my washing machine tap and toilets are all rain water.

My place definitely only has one water for everything that rain water is not connected to.



QldKev


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## punkin

Yob said:


> theres different water at your house? Pretty sure I have only the one supply coming in... am I missing something here? :blink:



Yes, you're missing something 

Listen guys, just try the experiment and report back if you can taste the difference. Maybe chew a water cracker in between tastings and leave it say 10 mins.
Then list your results as;

Kitchen water 1-10?;
Bathroom water 1-10?;
laundry water 1-10??
Outside water 1-10?;
toilet water (from the vanity, not the toilet) 1-10?;

We'll collate the lot and see how large the differences are. Maybe get your families or mates involved and do a blind tasting?

I suspect that those who are saying they can't taste a difference are not doing it scientifically enough.


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## punkin

Batz said:


> I had almost had forgotten about that Screwy, that's the whole reason we moved the dishwasher into the bathroom.



I just wish i could give this post ten likes.


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## JDW81

punkin said:


> I suspect that those who are saying they can't taste a difference are not doing it scientifically enough.


No, it is cause there is no difference. It all comes in through the same pipe on the property boundary, is distributed through copper pipes and then out through taps various. No difference in taste from laundry, kitchen, bathroom or the two outside taps.

I suspect there might be differences for people who have different pipes around the place (copper, gal, plastic) etc, but for my place there is not one iota of difference.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Im pretty keen on gettiing my water quality improved, I consider it an area of homebrewing that needs attention, now ive become even more obsessed with perfecting beer h34r: . Something that until now has not been of any concern, straight from the outside tap into the brew. To read that the water taste different from different taps would suggest that we have more than 1 inlet from the mains, maybe where you live but we only have 1 and i can say that the water from the bathroom is the same as the kitchen and the one outside. 

The tap I fill from is the 1st outlet from the mains, its about 1 meter away from the mains meter/tap and Id say that is the best tap to get my water from!

After reading this I will be using my existing food grade light blue hose from bunnings to fill up ( was previously using it for my immersion chiller,bought it that colour so i knew it was for brewing not the garden) and for sure buying the Twin Caravan Water Filter system recommended by Batz. 

Thankyou for the thread OP, its sure to get lot more people working on an area of homebrewing that most wouldnt care to much about....now to figure out what calcium, gypsum, chalk, lactic and all those other chemical do and what beers to use them for....lol. :blink:


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## Camo6

JDW81 said:


> No, it is cause there is no difference. It all comes in through the same pipe on the property boundary, is distributed through copper pipes and then out through taps various. No difference in taste from laundry, kitchen, bathroom or the two outside taps.
> 
> I suspect there might be differences for people who have different pipes around the place (copper, gal, plastic) etc, but for my place there is not one iota of difference.


My place uses a mixture of old gal pipe, poly and copper. It seems to run along the house, under the house, in the roof and basically all over the place.

I even have a huge copper HWS sitting in my roof cavity that would probably make a great kettle. If only I could get it out.


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## Camo6

punkin said:


> Yes, you're missing something
> 
> Listen guys, just try the experiment and report back if you can taste the difference. Maybe chew a water cracker in between tastings and leave it say 10 mins.
> Then list your results as;
> 
> Kitchen water 1-10?;
> Bathroom water 1-10?;
> laundry water 1-10??
> Outside water 1-10?;
> toilet water (from the vanity, not the toilet) 1-10?;
> 
> We'll collate the lot and see how large the differences are. Maybe get your families or mates involved and do a blind tasting?
> 
> I suspect that those who are saying they can't taste a difference are not doing it scientifically enough.



Awwwwhh... you guys!


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## Crofty

Pratty1 said:


> the Twin Caravan Water Filter system recommended by Batz.



A quick flick back through the thread and I still can't find where Batz recommended this- am I missing something?

Are we talking about something like this?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Two-stage-12-caravan-boat-inline-water-filter-with-brass-garden-hose-connector-/221262882461?pt=Caravan_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33844ba69d#ht_2459wt_826

Also - I take it the blue hose people are referring to is this?

http://www.bunnings.com.au/products_product_pope-10m-drinking-water-hose_P3130594.aspx?search=hose&searchType=any&searchSubType=products&page=3

Verification I'm keeping up is appreciated.


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## Camo6

I think this is close to the one mentioned. I bought my filter system through these guys and they were very prompt to replace a transit damaged part.


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## 431neb

Single supply is most common. Some housing estates and new developments have a grey water supply but that is pretty rare in my experience.

In older houses the outside taps are the ones that are least likely to have been renewed in copper or plastic and they may contain quite a few litres of water that has been lying in rusty galvanised pipe. That could account for differences in taste. 

My place is late 50s / early 60s and I have renewed most of the gal' pipe. It was in pretty shitty condition. I now have a mix of copper, plastic and gal.

If anyone is interested in an experiment, then tasting the water from various taps after each one has been run for a few minutes would be the most revealing. I suspect little or no difference will be discovered. 

I brew in the shed and , for what it's worth, I use a short length of garden hose from the tap in the shed to make it easy to fill jerries, HLT etc. I am unconcerned about the garden hose. It is flushed regularly and the water that lies in it when it is not in use is alway flushed out.


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## bradsbrew

Hmm, this has me intrigued, my place has had all the gal pipe replaced with copper throughout the whole building about 10 years ago. The first place it goes to from the street is the front outside tap, I have never noticed a difference in the quality of water but I have not really looked for one either. Will give it a go.


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## QldKev

These are the filters that I've recently replaced my fridges filter with. I don't think they are as good as the genuine one (by my taste test, but the wife and kids have not commented). 5 filters for the price of 1 genuine is pretty good. I'm waiting for some fittings to convert one to a hose setup for my brewery. Then every-time the fridge tells me to replace the cartridge I can also do the brewery.


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## Batz

bradsbrew said:


> Hmm, this has me intrigued, my place has had all the gal pipe replaced with copper throughout the whole building about 10 years ago. The first place it goes to from the street is the front outside tap, I have never noticed a difference in the quality of water but I have not really looked for one either. Will give it a go.


OK just as a safety warning here please don't brew or drink from the water supply to your toilet. This water is _not food grade_, it is for flushing turds and not brewing.

All toilet supplied flushing water should have this notice attached by law. I know it is not enforced by some towns, but it will be in years to come.

Be careful
Batz h34r:


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## Dan Pratt

Crofty said:


> A quick flick back through the thread and I still can't find where Batz recommended this- am I missing something?
> 
> 
> My bad, mid post I tried to recall who attached the link, that mush have been bats....lol


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## AndrewQLD

The water from ALL my taps, front outside, back outside, laundery, bathroom and kitchen all taste EXACTLY the same.... like shit.

That's why I filter all my bewing and drinking water. In my town it all comes from the same place, the meter out the front


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## Batz

AndrewQLD said:


> The water from ALL my taps, front outside, back outside, laundery, bathroom and kitchen all taste EXACTLY the same.... like shit.
> 
> That's why I filter all my bewing and drinking water. In my town it all comes from the same place, the meter out the front


_That's what they want you too believe._


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## Batz

AndrewQLD said:


> The water from ALL my taps, front outside, back outside, laundery, bathroom and kitchen all taste EXACTLY the same.... like shit.
> 
> That's why I filter all my bewing and drinking water. In my town it all comes from the same place, the meter out the front


try putting a tap in your shed Andrew, then try that! Yukko!!! I removed the tap in my shed because of this, and I'm on tank water :blink:


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## GalBrew

I hate to tell you but the water that flushes my shitter is the same water that comes out of my kitchen tap. I only have one water supply from the mains out the front of my house. The only difference is the pipe material. Not that I would use water from the toilet.


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## Batz

GalBrew said:


> I hate to tell you but the water that flushes my shitter is the same water that comes out of my kitchen tap.


That must be inconvenient at times.


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## jc64

During a recent renovation at my property the water supply line from my side of the meter had to be moved to accommodate a driveway. It goes under my house, which is raised, so I can trace the piping to all outlets. It's the same water for all water consuming devices and appliances.


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## Batz

jc64 said:


> During a recent renovation at my property the water supply line from my side of the meter had to be moved to accommodate a driveway. It goes under my house, which is raised, so I can trace the piping to all outlets. It's the same water for all water consuming devices and appliances.


Even if your on tank water??


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## jc64

Batz said:


> Even if your on tank water??


Ignore me I missed the tank water bit !


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## GalBrew

Most civilised people aren't on tank water.


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## Batz

GalBrew said:


> Most civilised people aren't on tank water.


Oh here we go, I suppose you got one of them refrigerators as well??


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## jyo

QldKev said:


> These are the filters that I've recently replaced my fridges filter with. I don't think they are as good as the genuine one (by my taste test, but the wife and kids have not commented). 5 filters for the price of 1 genuine is pretty good. I'm waiting for some fittings to convert one to a hose setup for my brewery. Then every-time the fridge tells me to replace the cartridge I can also do the brewery.


So one of these makes a noticeable difference to your beer, Kev? I really need to get a filter, but brewery cash is hard to come by. It's pretty similar to this one- http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Single-10-caravan-boat-inline-water-filter-with-brass-garden-hose-connector-/221275061419?pt=Caravan_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3385057cab


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## punkin

I worked installing water services for years. Most places have potable/nonpotable supplies.
If you only have one service coming into your property it's been done on the cheap. The thing you have to worry about is which main is it connected too? 
The kitchen water main, or the recycled toilet water main? I know we were spossed to connect to both, but when we were in a hurry or some cheaparse only paid for one connection we just connected to the closest one to save money. h34r:


----------



## Mardoo

punkin said:


> I know we were spossed to connect to both, but when we were in a hurry or some cheaparse only paid for one connection we just connected to the closest one to save money. h34r:


Now hearing THAT made my glass of water taste funny.


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## punkin

I read an article somewhere last year about a guy who shit out a massive parasite as big as his fist. It was linked to a recycled water connection that was incorrectly plumbed to his house.

I'll see if i can find the story.


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## bradsbrew

punkin said:


> I worked installing water services for years. Most places have potable/nonpotable supplies.
> If you only have one service coming into your property it's been done on the cheap.


Is that Australian standard to have 2 supplies to dwelling? Every house I have lived in has only had one meter/supply. The places that also had tank water had another tap at the sink.


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## punkin

The other service runs straight in, it's a bypass system, so it still registers on your meter.


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## QldKev

punkin said:


> The other service runs straight in, it's a bypass system, so it still registers on your meter.


That does not make sense to me, if it bypasses how does the meter register it?


A quick google tells me there is a recycled water feed in NSW, they use lilac colored pipes/taps and should be marked as not safe for drinking.


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## QldKev

Batz said:


> Even if your on tank water??



I wonder since you are serviced with only rain water does your place have a house filter for the incoming water. Then the outdoor taps and toilets etc bypass the filter, whilst the kitchen etc is fed via the filter, hence the difference in quality.


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## Black Devil Dog

Every single urban property on the Sunshine Coast has only 1 water supply to the house. New or old, it makes no difference.

From the water metre, it goes to your house in black poly (with blue stripes), once at your house, it then gets distributed to various parts of the house.

Water from your rainwater tank is only to be used for flushing the toilet, washing machine and external garden taps.

Taps inside your house have got identical water no matter where they are.

At Caboolture and no doubt other areas, there are 2 water supplies to the house. One in black poly with blue stripes (drinking) and one with purple stripes (flushing etc).


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## punkin

QldKev said:


> That does not make sense to me, if it bypasses how does the meter register it?



That's for engineers to know. We're just the ones digging in the dirt.

http://www.sewl.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/BuildingAndDevelopment/Plumbers/WaterMeteringServicing/Water_metering_and_servicing_guidelines.pdf

Something to do venturis and stuff, too high falutin for me.


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## wbosher

I guess the only reason for outside water tasting different, is perhaps the length of time sitting in the pipes if it used infrequently. I know our house is all piped from one main inlet, and distributed around the house using identical pipes. That seems to be the standard way of doing it in NZ.


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## punkin

AndrewQLD said:


> The water from ALL my taps, front outside, back outside, laundery, bathroom and kitchen all taste EXACTLY the same.... like shit.
> 
> That's why I filter all my bewing and drinking water. In my town it all comes from the same place, the meter out the front



Dare say you were a friday afternoon connection :drinks:


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## QldKev

punkin said:


> That's for engineers to know. We're just the ones digging in the dirt.
> 
> http://www.sewl.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/BuildingAndDevelopment/Plumbers/WaterMeteringServicing/Water_metering_and_servicing_guidelines.pdf
> 
> Something to do venturis and stuff, too high falutin for me.



In that doco it says the plumber installs the pipework, and then the water supplier will install a second meter into the recycled water line. Makes sense now


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## QldKev

punkin said:


> Dare say you were a friday afternoon connection :drinks:



Bundy does not use recycled water into our houses, hence the confusion earlier.


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## AndrewQLD

punkin said:


> Dare say you were a friday afternoon connection :drinks:


So that's why it tastes so bad.
Although Kev is right in his quote below, so it seems different areas/States have different water supply requirements.



QldKev said:


> Bundy does not use recycled water into our houses, hence the confusion earlier.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

punkin said:


> I worked installing water services for years. Most places have potable/nonpotable supplies.
> If you only have one service coming into your property it's been done on the cheap. The thing you have to worry about is which main is it connected too?
> The kitchen water main, or the recycled toilet water main? I know we were spossed to connect to both, but when we were in a hurry or some cheaparse only paid for one connection we just connected to the closest one to save money. h34r:


When I lived in Rockhampton QLD we didnt even have a meter, god only knows what I was drinking from those lead pipes ?
Oh and it was a hot spot for renal failure, go figure :huh:
Nev


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## Camo6

Well this thread has gone down the gurgler.


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## Batz

Why would you want to make beer from it?


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## Batz

Gryphon Brewing said:


> When I lived in Rockhampton QLD we didnt even have a meter, god only knows what I was drinking from those lead pipes ?
> Oh and it was a hot spot for renal failure, go figure :huh:
> Nev


I only just arrived back home after a month working there Nev, drink the water?? I don't think so.


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## Screwtop

Batz said:


> I had almost had forgotten about that Screwy, that's the whole reason we moved the dishwasher into the bathroom.


Been meaning to ask, since you're solely on tank water, do you add a little baking soda to the water in your tanks??

Screwy


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## Batz

Screwtop said:


> Been meaning to ask, since you're solely on tank water, do you add a little baking soda to the water in your tanks??
> 
> Screwy



I find a cuttlefish bone in each tank works well. Of course I still would never brew from the laundry or toilet water.


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## Screwtop

Batz said:


> I find a cuttlefish bone in each tank works well. Of course I still would never brew from the laundry or toilet water.


I threw a few lumps of pumicestone into my big tank, but the bloody stuff floats.


----------



## punkin

Batz said:


> I find a cuttlefish bone in each tank works well. Of course I still would never brew from the laundry or toilet water.



I have heard many times about the cuttlefish bone in the tank, a lot of people use it. Since we are so far from the coast i've just used a store bought Loofah for the tank, but i don't know if it does the same thing to soften the water. I hadn't thought of pumice, but we can't get that round here anyway.

Do you think the Loofah is a good idea Batz, i might PM you to see if i can get some cuttlefish bones, could probably swap for some Roo ball's or something.


----------



## AndrewQLD

There must be a million uses for Roo Balls :blink: :lol:


----------



## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> There must be a million uses for Roo Balls :blink: :lol:


Especially if you happen to be a Kangaroo!!!!!!


----------



## punkin

There's not a lot of resources round here, roadside apples oncea year is about it. Not as if we can walk along the beach and find pumice and cuttlefish and half pairs of thongs.

Roo balls are just about legal currency west of the Divide.


----------



## dicko

Dont you throw a dead rabit in the tank........oh hang on, that may be the septic tank..


----------



## QldKev

Will I get botulism from using the wrong hose?


----------



## Batz

QldKev said:


> Will I get botulism from using the wrong hose?



Or the wrong tap, chances are quite high Kev.


----------



## jyo

Screwtop said:


> Especially if you happen to be a Kangaroo!!!!!!


Or if you just _really_ like kangaroos.


----------



## hsb

punkin said:


> Roo balls are just about legal currency west of the Divide.


LOL. Only in Soviet Russia (and the Bush) can you exchange Rooballs for alcohol.


----------



## JDW81

QldKev said:


> Will I get botulism from using the wrong hose?


Only if it goes into your cube first....


----------



## punkin

QldKev said:


> Will I get botulism from using the wrong hose?



That can happen if you get seepage from your septic tank into your water tank. A more common problem than people realise.


----------



## bum

Anyone who has read the last couple pages of this thread might not be surprised.


----------



## WarmBeer

bum said:


> Anyone who has read the last couple pages of this thread ...


Pssshaww, as if anybody would do that.


----------



## Batz

punkin said:


> That can happen if you get seepage from your septic tank into your water tank. A more common problem than people realise.



That's why you can have the bottom of your tank lead lined, keeps septic seepage at bay. It costs a bit yes, but hey best to stay fit and healthy.


----------

