# Water Chemistry - Please Read This



## bear09

Hi All.

Water chemistry is something I have wanted to tinker with for some time but its always seemed too complex and I have never had an accurate test on my water so I never bothered. Now this has all changed and here is why/how:

>> I read and re read palmers How to Brew Water Chemistry section about 5 times (seriously).
>> I read and re read Noonan's New brewing Lager Beer Water Chemistry about 3 times (seriously).
>> I Sourced a copy of that Excel water calculator tool and had a fiddle with it just to see how the results changed.

*Now for the main part...*

>> I found this link on Youtube: 

In this link he speaks of a US company named 'Ward Labs' (Google it - it comes up first hit). He speaks of how they doing a 'Brewing water test'. I (on my awesome cheap ass voip phone) called Ward labs immediatley to discuss. I organised a test with them. I sent a 600ml bottle of my tap water over to them (it cost me $40 to send it because it looked like a bomb but it arrived over there in less then one week). They then ran a brewers test on it, sent me the results via email and then billed me a peasly $16.50 US (Which was $15.80 AU!!! :icon_cheers: )

Anyone who lives in Craigieburn, these are the results they gave me (it was formatted much better then this in the PDF that arrived):

pH 7.0
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 49
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.08
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.5 / 0.5
ppm
Sodium, Na 5
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 3
Magnesium, Mg 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 12
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S < 1
Chloride, Cl 7
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 12
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 10
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Now I have an accurate report on my water - Specific to my house and my tap. With the help of the Excel sheet water calculator, the youtube link and ward labs I know now that I am on my way to better beer. It cost me ~$55. I am pretty bloody happy with this I must say. I hope that this can help others out there who are wanting to get better results and more flexibility in the styles they can brew.

Finally, this test confirmed that Melbourne water is BLOODY soft. Im not expert but Id have to say Im happy about this. Surely soft water can *easily *be made harder but I doubt the converse of this statement is true.

Anyhow questions and comments of course are more then welcome.

Cheers. :icon_chickcheers:


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Soft , looks like they forgot to turn the meter on. No Calcium at all , how could you brew with that ?
GB


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## bear09

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Soft , looks like they forgot to turn the meter on. No Calcium at all , how could you brew with that ?
> GB



Thats why the guys at G&G answer every person that says "I want to start some water chemistry" with "The first thing you will need is Calcium"...

I add calcium carb and calcium sulph first up to every brew.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

bear09 said:


> Thats why the guys at G&G answer every person that says "I want to start some water chemistry" with "The first thing you will need is Calcium"...
> 
> I add calcium carb and calcium sulph first up to every brew.


I am amazed by that water profile, where is your water drawn from ?
Our's gets sucked out of the ground and it tastes like it.
GB


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## BOG

Here's what I have in Beersmith for my water.

Slightly out of date but close enough to calcualte burton water salts to be added for an ESB.
Units are in parts per million. (PPM)


Name: Sydney Water - Prospect
PH: 7.8

Calcium: 14.5
Magnesium: 5.3
Sodium: 13.0
Sulfate: 10.0
Chloride: 28.0
Bicarbonate: 39.5
Notes: Where Sydney Water has provided a range the unit used is the centre of the range.
Based on Water profile from Prospect. Date Valid June 2007


---------------------------------------------------------------------



BOG


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## felten

It's all from protected rainwater catchments, they don't flow through anything to pickup any hardness. At least that's my understanding of it.


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## tavas

MPL Labs in Perth can also do water testing testing for drinking water.


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## brando

I wouldn't be paying $55 for information that is already publicly available.

Plus, all that $55 gets you is a one-sample report. That is, a report for only one particular point in time. Water contents can change significantly in some areas throughout the year.

Better to contact your local water mob and request water reports for the last four quarters, and take the average of them (unless there is obvious seasonality to the contents).


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## Wolfy

bear09 said:


> Anyone who lives in Craigieburn, these are the results they gave me (it was formatted much better then this in the PDF that arrived):
> 
> pH 7.0
> Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 49
> Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.08
> Cations / Anions, me/L 0.5 / 0.5
> ppm
> Sodium, Na 5
> Potassium, K < 1
> Calcium, Ca 3
> Magnesium, Mg 1
> Total Hardness, CaCO3 12
> Nitrate, NO3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
> Sulfate, SO4-S < 1
> Chloride, Cl 7
> Carbonate, CO3 < 1
> Bicarbonate, HCO3 12
> Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 10
> "<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit


I'm not sure which dam the water in Craigieburn comes from, but it would be interesting to see how those results compare to what is published by the water-company: http://www.southeastwater.com.au/SiteColle...er_Analysis.pdf


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## DKS

brando said:


> I wouldn't be paying $55 for information that is already publicly available.
> 
> Plus, all that $55 gets you is a one-sample report. That is, a report for only one particular point in time. Water contents can change significantly in some areas throughout the year.
> 
> Better to contact your local water mob and request water reports for the last four quarters, and take the average of them (unless there is obvious seasonality to the contents).



Where did you get yours brando?I have found SEQW website to be useless.
Daz


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## brando

DKS said:


> Where did you get yours brando?I have found SEQW website to be useless.
> Daz




I'm in the Redlands, so different supply to Bris city. 

Called Allconnex and pressed them (have recieved two quarterly reports so far).


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## slacka

Central Coast


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## Norto

Barrett and smith pathologists in Penrith can do just about any water test you need, at one point they even helped me get my water tested for radiation. <_< 
regards,
Norto


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## bear09

brando said:


> I wouldn't be paying $55 for information that is already publicly available.
> 
> Plus, all that $55 gets you is a one-sample report. That is, a report for only one particular point in time. Water contents can change significantly in some areas throughout the year.
> 
> Better to contact your local water mob and request water reports for the last four quarters, and take the average of them (unless there is obvious seasonality to the contents).



Already have done this to be safe as well. I just wanted a specific value for my water at my place.


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## BobtheBrewer

brando said:


> I'm in the Redlands, so different supply to Bris city.
> 
> Called Allconnex and pressed them (have recieved two quarterly reports so far).



Care to share? I'm next door in Birkdale, same water. All I see from Allconnex is that I used $47 worth of water and they are charging me $281.

Bob


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## donburke

dont know if its right me asking in this post, but does adding salts to your mash make that much of a difference ?

i live in sydney and have always used tap water, i have never added anything to my water

would i benefit from adding anything to my water ? 

assuming i knew what i was doing, which i dont, but i can learn, what would improve ?


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## manticle

Makes a difference to my palate.

You can brighten your hop profile with calcium sulphate, push malt and accentuate bitterness with calcium chloride and increase efficiency and clarity.

You can also stuff a beer completely up if you overdo it.

You can make good beer without adjusting water,particularly if your water is decent quality to begin with. Judicious use of salts can just aid in making a good beer shine a bit more.


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## donburke

manticle said:


> Makes a difference to my palate.
> 
> You can brighten your hop profile with calcium sulphate, push malt and accentuate bitterness with calcium chloride and increase efficiency and clarity.
> 
> You can also stuff a beer completely up if you overdo it.
> 
> You can make good beer without adjusting water,particularly if your water is decent quality to begin with. Judicious use of salts can just aid in making a good beer shine a bit more.



definitely warrants some research on my behalf then, thanks


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## fcmcg

One of the biggest things for me from last years ANHC was the side by side taste test we did with the same beer , same hop , different water additions....As Manticle said , the hops shine with a bit of water chemistry ...
Do a google for Tony Wheeler and water chemistry..sorry on the iPhone so not doing it for you , buts it's a brilliant and easy to understand article
Cheers
Ferg


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## haysie

fergthebrewer said:


> Do a google for Tony Wheeler and water chemistry..sorry on the iPhone so not doing it for you , buts it's a brilliant and easy to understand article
> Cheers
> Ferg



This is the one I think Ferg! Is very good albeit very old i.e if you line the water profile up against hmmm? somebody recently had a Melbourne water analysis done, they are chalk n cheese pardon the pun. These days with all the rains, increased dam levels, water being pumped all over the state I would imagine its difficult to say one size fits all.
If I was to get seriously into water treatment, my starting point would be R/O water.


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## manticle

I'm not convinced by the recent water analysis you mention though Haysie (from this thread). It took a week to get to the US - my understanding is that tests need to be done ASAP to have any relevance.

I go off the 2010 water analysis from Melbourne water which Wolfy posted. My water comes from two reservoirs so I take a median average for the relevant values.

Starting from scratch with RO water and building your own profile is probably a great idea though. A few years away for me yet I think.


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## michael_aussie

haysie said:


> This is the one I think Ferg! Is very good albeit very old i.e if you line the water profile up against hmmm? somebody recently had a Melbourne water analysis done, they are chalk n cheese pardon the pun. These days with all the rains, increased dam levels, water being pumped all over the state I would imagine its difficult to say one size fits all.
> If I was to get seriously into water treatment, my starting point would be R/O water.


ty for the link to the article.
Some hard-core chemistry to digest there.
A whole new area of brewing that I was blind to variables.... ty again.


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## jasonharley

You can fairly cheaply gain an understanding of water chem. Firstly, Ca and Mg water test kits that give you a reasonable degree of accuracy (+/- 10 ppm). You can also test for pH (obviously) so you have most of the parameters that you need to know your water. Supplemented by monthly water quality reports from the local water authority you can make some broad assumptions on the correlates of other parameters. All this can be as cheap as $80 to set up.

5 eyes


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## Bribie G

If I'm pushing a particular style I'll use RO water and salts per EZwater spreadsheet - and a good teaspoon of the brown yeast nutrient (not the white) to provide anything that has been stripped out such as boron, zinc in particular, arsenic, unobtanium etc etc. 

However as I spent $250 on the unit, if it's a keg filler / quaffer and I'm happy with middle of the road malt vs hops (e.g. my Mid Atlantic Red) I'll use either half and half town water or just town water with some extra calcium as an insurance to prolong its life between filter changes. 

Without the RO unit I wouldn't even attempt something like a pale continental lager using Bribie Island water.


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## manticle

Do you treat your town water in any way besides extra Ca bribie? eg boil to remove temporary hardness and free chlorine, sodium met to remove chloramines (if required) etc?


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## Bribie G

Not yet, when I use town water direct I get it out of the HWS and it's just about at strike temperature - the chlorine has been taken care of already. Before I got the RO, every beer that ever won anything in a comp was made on HWS liqour h34r:


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## Dave70

My H2o comes direct from the sky via a coluor bond roof and stored in a 100,000L concrete tank.
Whats that word on tank water?


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## Kieren

Dave70 said:


> My H2o comes direct from the sky via a coluor bond roof and stored in a 100,000L concrete tank.
> Whats that word on tank water?



Rain water is considered to be void of ions for the purposes of brewing. It may differ slightly from region to region but as long as you don't live near Fukushima or are prone to acid rain you will be fine. Treat it as deionised water.


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## michael_aussie

Kieren said:


> Rain water is considered to be void of ions for the purposes of brewing. It may differ slightly from region to region but as long as you don't live near Fukushima or are prone to acid rain you will be fine. Treat it as deionised water.



would the industrial areas (Newcastle, Latrobe Valley) have any extras?? I always understood that the power stations caused slightly acidic rain??

would the concrete tank add anything to the water??


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## Kieren

michael_aussie said:


> would the industrial areas (Newcastle, Latrobe Valley) have any extras?? I always understood that the power stations caused slightly acidic rain??
> 
> would the concrete tank add anything to the water??



These q's are beyond my limited knowledge. My suggestion would be to get it tested. Do you drink your rainwater? If you think it's safe to drink then it's safe to brew. As for ion content - not sure.


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## [email protected]

in my experience, rainwater in concrete tanks will leach some minerals over time, making the water a little harder and a bit more alkaline.


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## bear09

Norto said:


> Barrett and smith pathologists in Penrith can do just about any water test you need, at one point they even helped me get my water tested for radiation. <_<
> regards,
> Norto



How much was it?

Did it have all the required detail that brewing water calculations require?

Cheers.


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## vic45

bear09, I had two samples tested at Ecowise in Geelong, they have branches in Melbourne as well.

Cost $ 70 each, analysis covers all you need. You tell them what you want listed.

Cheers


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## bear09

vic45 said:


> bear09, I had two samples tested at Ecowise in Geelong, they have branches in Melbourne as well.
> 
> Cost $ 70 each, analysis covers all you need. You tell them what you want listed.
> 
> Cheers



Awesome - thanks man.


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## Wolfy

BribieG said:


> If I'm pushing a particular style I'll use RO water and salts per EZwater spreadsheet - and a good teaspoon of the brown yeast nutrient (not the white) to provide anything that has been stripped out such as boron, zinc in particular, arsenic, unobtanium etc etc.
> 
> ...
> 
> Without the RO unit I wouldn't even attempt something like a pale continental lager using Bribie Island water.


Given the low concentration of salts in Melbourne water, I generally treat it the same as RO/distilled water, it has the advantage that one can easily build most any water-profile, but the disadvantage that if you do nothing your beer is likely not to be as good as it could.


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## colonel

I've been wondering about that.
We've been drinking tank water for decades, with no problems, even though it's got a lot of possum/bird shit in it.
But do those greeblies have any effect on the brew?
Bacteria, wild yeasts etc?



Kieren said:


> These q's are beyond my limited knowledge. My suggestion would be to get it tested. Do you drink your rainwater? If you think it's safe to drink then it's safe to brew. As for ion content - not sure.


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## Superoo

QUOTE>
"But do those greeblies have any effect on the brew?
Bacteria, wild yeasts etc?"

I would imagine they are all 'NUKED' when you boil for at least an hour.

I use rainwater too, and cant say its ever caused a problem.
I use starsan so that I dont have to rinse anything and all has been OK for 48 brews so far.


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## Superoo

I have never looked at the water side closely, but would like to after reading this thread.

When you wise people do your PH measurements, roughly how much would the PH drop pre and post mash, without using additives for PH corection.

Say when doing a light Ale with no dark grains and using clean rainwater ?

cheers 

Edit : reworded


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## big78sam

I really need to look at this again. 

All I had was calcium chloride and used it for a while until I tested my mash PH and it was 4.9. I just had "aim for 5.2" in my head along with "CaCl lowers PH" so stopped using it. Reading the 'Key Concepts' again carefully (a PH of 4.9 is fine) and this thread I'm going to look at this carefully now...


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## felten

colonel said:


> I've been wondering about that.
> We've been drinking tank water for decades, with no problems, even though it's got a lot of possum/bird shit in it.
> But do those greeblies have any effect on the brew?
> Bacteria, wild yeasts etc?


All vegetative bacteria will be killed in your typical 60m+ boil, spores of some kinds can survive the boil but probably not from beer spoilers (like botulism). Fermenting/finished beer is a pretty inhospitable place for most organisms.


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## gone_fishing

How much impact does water chemistry have on homebrewed beer?
gf


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## colonel

felten said:


> All vegetative bacteria will be killed in your typical 60m+ boil, spores of some kinds can survive the boil but probably not from beer spoilers (like botulism). Fermenting/finished beer is a pretty inhospitable place for most organisms.



Yeah, that sounds reasonable Felten, but as I only boil a couple of litres to disolve the sugar and goo, it's not doing anything to the water out of the tap.
Boiling all the water seems a bit onerous/energy intensive if it's not needed, so I'm wondering if it's necessary?


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## rude

Good thread this one might have to give the water chem a bash

Does any sandgropers have a water annalysis for my area in melville ?


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## rude

I have just been reading wheelers water treatment article downloaded from this thread & was thinking perth water is soft.

Lacking in calcium

So an addition for my pale ales, bitters of calcium chloride seems like a good move using his dispensing method with a power aid bottle.

Would I be on the right track doing this & how do I check my mash ph using strips, meter ?

Do I have to cool the mash to check the ph ?

Just wondering how you experienced brewers go about it.

What about wheat beers I would think the ph mash would be alkaline.

Thanks all for advice


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## manticle

@rude: Before you add anything, you'll need a copy of your water report with values for calcium, sodium, magnesium, chloride and sulphate as well as alkalinity and temporary hardness.

You can get this from the water company if you ask nicely and tell them it's for brewing. I think Perth Water can range from quite soft to very hard.

Gryphon brewing is WA and is pretty up with the whole shebang so maybe get in touch and find the best way to go about measuring.

Your recipe/malts will change your pH although I don't believe a wheat beer mash will be particularly alkaline.

I'm in the middle of reading various texts to get a better understanding of it all myself so forgive me if this is poorly explained. Malts will generally have an acidifying effect on a mash. Dark malts will have more of an effect than pale malts and carbonates in water/mash will resist the acidification (act as a buffer). I've not come across anything that suggests wheat malt will have an alkaline effect.

Temperature will affect pH readings to some degree.


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## bear09

gone_fishing said:


> How much impact does water chemistry have on homebrewed beer?
> gf



I liked the way Thirstyboy put it at one of the G&G demonstration days. He said that you can make good beer quite easily but if you want to make great beer then you have to start eliminating some of the things that can be detrimental to the flavor you seek. I have found that these little things can include (but are certainly not limited to) water filtration, water chemistry, Mash PH, Sparge PH, mash temp accuracy and consistency, yeast health/vitality, pitching rates, pitching temps, fermentation temps and schedule and of course overall sanitation.

I have found that I was making OK beer. When I started to get involved in all these things mentioned above I found that things began to improve. Many of the things I never cared about actually do make a difference. Once upon a time I just used to chuck everything in the fermenter and leave it on the floor in the lounge. No temp control, no proper yeast handling - jesus I used to pitch in at 30 degrees.

Paying attention to the big things will get you beer (and some pretty bloody good beer too). Paying attention to the small things will bring you great beer - beer that will make you smile from ear to ear with satisfaction.


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## rude

Thanks Manticle youre right malts arent alkaline just thinking that wheat beer recipes would have a higher mash ph compared to darker malts

Have read a few threads on the search here about Perth water & it seems a little harder than just putting in calcium chloride.

A lot of brewers seam to start off from scratch RO water which doesnt appeal to me, additional costs maybe down the track.


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## manticle

From what I've read, you can boil your water first to remove temporary hardness.


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## donburke

i am going to try some water additions to my brew tomorrow, on the lesser side as a precaution, 

can i just add the whole addition to the mash at the start or should it be added proportionally to the water being used at each step, i.e. half at mash in then the other half during the sparge ?

thanks


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## manticle

I dissolve mine in boiling water and just add to mash and boil.

However I have read that adding to your sparge water can be a good idea. It may depend somewhat on the water profile.

I'd worry more about the mash pH for your first (and flavour with your chloride:sulphate ratio)


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## WitWonder

A couple of interesting quotes from Noonan;

"Certain beer styles are suited to waters of very specific mineral composition and an otherwise well-brewed example will always be diminished by the use of totally inappropriate brewing water."

and regarding rainwater

"Rainwater should be the purest natural source of water, but because it assimilates atmospheric gases and organic mineral particles wherever the air is the least bit polluted, most rainwater is absolutely unsuitable for use in brewing. Precipitation in areas far removed from large fossil-fuel burning plants more often than not is still polluted by highly corrosive sulfuric acid ... Free hydrogen carbonates ... are also common in rainwater. They rob the calcium from the mash, water and ferment...".

and on the subject of testing water samples

"The longer the sample sits, the less accurate the analysis will be. Where pollution is suspected, the water must be tested within twelve hours of collection, and in all other cases, within seventy-two hours."

There's about 40 pages devoted to water, well worth the read.


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## Wolfy

manticle said:


> I dissolve mine in boiling water and just add to mash and boil.
> 
> However I have read that adding to your sparge water can be a good idea. It may depend somewhat on the water profile.


The recent email I sent to BrewLab in the UK asking about water profiles included the following quote as part of their reply:
"_The salts MUST be added to the dry grain and NOT the hot liquor tank, as they are difficult to dissolve_."
_(Their capital-emphasis not mine)._


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## donburke

Wolfy said:


> The recent email I sent to BrewLab in the UK asking about water profiles included the following quote as part of their reply:
> "_The salts MUST be added to the dry grain and NOT the hot liquor tank, as they are difficult to dissolve_."
> _(Their capital-emphasis not mine)._




well i mixed up 17g calcium chloride, 13g calcium sulfate and 5g of magnesium sulphate in a litre of hot water in a plastic bottle 8 hours ago (this is for approx 120 litres of sydney water)

shook many times, and still hasnt dissolved so i'll tip it and try adding them dry to the mash tomorrow


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## felten

Calcium is less soluble in hot water than cold water, calcium sulphate is not very soluble at all, they need the low pH of a mash to dissolve properly. CaCl2 (CaSO4 as well?)in water creates an exothermic reaction as well, you have to watch out for it sinking to the bottom and cracking whatever you're mixing it in.

I've heard that advice to mix them in with the grist before as well, pretty good idea if you ask me. I keep mine in solution like the Tony wheeler doco says and it can be a bit of a PITA to shake it up properly before measuring it out, especially the gypsum which settles out very quickly.

I wouldn't dump the solution though.


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## Newbee(r)

I was thinking of using rain water instead of the canberra tap water - is there anything I need to treat it with or perhaps give it a pre-boil to get rid of gribblies before bringing down to 64 degrees? I figured the mineral flavours of it would add a great dimension to the beer. my tank has a filter on it so leaves etc don't get in there and is a hard plastic 10,000 litre tank so shouldn't impart metallic flavours... Any thoughts?


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## razz

Newbee(r) said:


> I was thinking of using rain water instead of the canberra tap water - is there anything I need to treat it with or perhaps give it a pre-boil to get rid of gribblies before bringing down to 64 degrees? I figured the mineral flavours of it would add a great dimension to the beer. my tank has a filter on it so leaves etc don't get in there and is a hard plastic 10,000 litre tank so shouldn't impart metallic flavours... Any thoughts?


That's what I do Newbee. Boil approx 60 lts which is my total brewing water. Although I don't know about the mineral profile adding a dimension to the water, perhaps if it had lots of minerals it could. You may find that it does not have much at all.


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## gjhansford

I think that water quality and chemical/salt profiles are critical, especially when you are trying to get from good beer to great beer.

A few years ago I did the Coopers tour at their then new factory out in the suburbs. I wasn't a brewer then, just a drinker, so most of what I saw and heard went over my head (probable still would!). But there was one think I do remember, which at the time I thought very wierd.

They said they build the new brewery right over a undeground water supply that was 'free'. They they installed a great big RO machine to purify their own water, finally addding salts etc.

Of course, now it makes sense. 

So ... if we can learn anything from the big boys about water, it seems it's this: water is important, and worth the effort!

ghhb


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## manticle

Wolfy said:


> The recent email I sent to BrewLab in the UK asking about water profiles included the following quote as part of their reply:
> "_The salts MUST be added to the dry grain and NOT the hot liquor tank, as they are difficult to dissolve_."
> _(Their capital-emphasis not mine)._



Up until very recently I simply sprinkled it in before stirring the mash. After some more reading, I started adding them to a bit of hot water (not the HLT), letting it sit, then stirring the crap out of it. Yesterday I added it to the little bit of water I use to heat the tun (which then gets 1/3 strike water added before grain). No idea if any is likely to work better than the other.

I'll have to hunt up the info about the sparge water although the suggestion is to add to sparge as well not just treat the strike/sparge water as a whole. Before I confuse myself further, I'll re-read and clarify.


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## manticle

^ One quick reference is from Briggs, Boulton and Brookes and Stevens (Brewing Science and Practice) which talks about treating the sparge liquor. I should be clear that this is following having treated the mash and essentially refers to removing bicarbonates and ensuring adequate calcium levels. This is to stop the pH rising too much during sparging as the malt no longer has the same buffering (having been washed out during lauter/draining).


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## lespaul

Im just using the Kaiser Water Calculator spreadsheet that i found somewhere on here. It is saying that in a 47lt BIAB i need to put something like 5g CaSO4 and 5g CaCl into the mash (to end up with just over 50ppm Ca)? Does this seem a little excessive to anyone?
Cheers


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## davewaldo

WitWonder said:


> and regarding rainwater
> 
> "Rainwater should be the purest natural source of water, but because it assimilates atmospheric gases and organic mineral particles wherever the air is the least bit polluted, most rainwater is absolutely unsuitable for use in brewing. Precipitation in areas far removed from large fossil-fuel burning plants more often than not is still polluted by highly corrosive sulfuric acid ... Free hydrogen carbonates ... are also common in rainwater. They rob the calcium from the mash, water and ferment...".




This confuses me somewhat. Most other things I have read (on this site) suggest that rainwater in Australia is good quality but very lacking in salts. Therefore I was planning to start building my own water profiles using rainwater as a base. 

I realise there are several brewers on this site using rainwater, but is there any evidence regarding the use of Australian rainwater for brewing? I thought it would be a great base water to start from???? I have a concrete tile roof and plastic tank with first flush diverters, so I would assume my water would be quite high quality.

Cheers,

David.


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## manticle

lespaul said:


> Im just using the Kaiser Water Calculator spreadsheet that i found somewhere on here. It is saying that in a 47lt BIAB i need to put something like 5g CaSO4 and 5g CaCl into the mash (to end up with just over 50ppm Ca)? Does this seem a little excessive to anyone?
> Cheers



Doesn't seem excessive at all. I use around 2g of each in a regular size batch. However is Kaiser calibrated for BIAB? Mash thickness affects the formulae used in EZ water calculator and mash thickness in simple BIAB differs from 3V.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

I brew exclusively with rainwater that is collected on a colourbond roof into a galv tank, then pumped up black poly pipe into a concrete tank. It falls down the hill into my brewery via more black poly pipe.

My beer has been found by several people to be somewhat drinkable. I would suggest that the best thing you can do is to brew with some water and see if you like the results.

If you look hard enough, you will find people on the internet who can/will argue absolutely any position, regardless of how much sense it might make. I think experimentation and personal experience will usually yield best results.



davewaldo said:


> This confuses me somewhat. Most other things I have read (on this site) suggest that rainwater in Australia is good quality but very lacking in salts. Therefore I was planning to start building my own water profiles using rainwater as a base.
> 
> I realise there are several brewers on this site using rainwater, but is there any evidence regarding the use of Australian rainwater for brewing? I thought it would be a great base water to start from???? I have a concrete tile roof and plastic tank with first flush diverters, so I would assume my water would be quite high quality.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> David.


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## lespaul

manticle said:


> Doesn't seem excessive at all. I use around 2g of each in a regular size batch. However is Kaiser calibrated for BIAB? Mash thickness affects the formulae used in EZ water calculator and mash thickness in simple BIAB differs from 3V.



Yeah i saw that, any recommendations on what to use for water calculations?


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## BOG

I've just put down an Easter ESB and below is what I added to Sydney Water (prospect), to get a close to Burton on Trent water profile.

Batch size is 20L (final into Fermentor) , starting water volume is ~31.5 Litres. (Mash in = 12L , Mash out = 8, Sparge = 2 x 5.75 Litres )

Added the following;

1gm Salt
5gm Baking Soda
15gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulphate)
PH 5.2 Stabilizer - 1Tsp

I didn't both with the Magnesium Sulphate this time. But it would have been maybe a gram at best.

Note that Burton water is very Chalky hence the Gypsum, but this makes a big difference to the final flavour of the beer.

Hence the saying - "Chalk and Cheese" .......... maybe....



BOG


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## felten

lespaul said:


> Yeah i saw that, any recommendations on what to use for water calculations?


Beersmith has a water calculator, doesn't factor in pH though.

BTW 5g each in 47L comes out to 54 ppm Ca, 60 SO4 ppm and 51 ppm Cl according to beersmith.


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## manticle

lespaul said:


> Yeah i saw that, any recommendations on what to use for water calculations?



For BIAB? Sorry can't help. I'm sure that biabbrewer forum would have some info or one of the more experienced biab brewers here..


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## Dylo

Ive been adjusting Canberra water to 100ppm CaS04 & 100ppm CaCl for my PA's. Results have been good, it adds a certain polish to the finished beer. Im not going back.

Dylo


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## gone_fishing

I am wondering how to calculate pH and water chemistry. Given that I don't know the pH of simply adding malt to water (considering that the malting process verges on turning acidic). How do I also account for the chemical elements associated with the water that was added to the barley prior to malting.

Should i be making my decisions regarding these issues following testing of the pH and ionic content of my mash rather than calculating the additions of my brew water?

gf


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## kieran

gf: from a chemistry perspective, it's best to do it once it's mashed. You *can* do it beforehands if you really want, but you need to have a fair idea of the changes that will occur once you've doughed in. If there is any variation in pH from your grain between batches (mass, crystal, roasted proportional content) then this will vary. That's why it's probably easier for the home brewer, where batch to batch variation is greater, to test the mash pH once doughed in, and then adjust accordingly.
Also, you'll find that certain salts dissolve into solution much easier at a lower pH than neutral water, so it will be more effective.


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## katzke

gone_fishing said:


> I am wondering how to calculate pH and water chemistry. Given that I don't know the pH of simply adding malt to water (considering that the malting process verges on turning acidic). How do I also account for the chemical elements associated with the water that was added to the barley prior to malting.
> 
> Should i be making my decisions regarding these issues following testing of the pH and ionic content of my mash rather than calculating the additions of my brew water?
> 
> gf



Use one of the calculators that is out there. I use 2 different ones. Palmers is just about as easy and good as any. Can not find the link to the other one. It is a lot more complicated and the results have been similar.

The only exception has been with wheat beers, I brew mostly WITs. I find they need to be calculated as a darker brew then they are becuase of the different qualities of the wheat. Experience will tell if you need to make any changes.


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## therocko

Your local council has to report by law on its water quality. Ma ybe worth a look.


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## therocko

Your local council has to report by law on its water quality. Ma ybe worth a look.


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