# Belgian Saison



## Nick JD (4/11/11)

Gonna put a Belgian Saison down in a warm corner of the garage for a few weeks now it's getting summery. Does this recipe have any issues?

17L
3.5kg Wey Pils
0.4kg Dextrose
0.1kg Wey Caramunich 3
0.05kg Special B
10g Galena 60min
15g EKG 20min
WY 3724 Belgian Saison @ 20-30C

:icon_cheers:

EDIT: I read saisons often have a bit of sugaz, is this too much? Will it be insanly thin? Also, every afternoon (when the sun's on it), my garage gets close to 35C - is it advisable to push this yeast to that end of its range?

I've read about people finished it off with another neutral yeast - was that below 35C?


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (4/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> Gonna put a Belgian Saison down in a warm corner of the garage for a few weeks now it's getting summery. Does this recipe have any issues?
> 
> 17L
> 3.5kg Wey Pils
> ...




I have done a couple of saisons because of lack of temp control and regularly did single malt, single hop and a touch of dex. They do come out a tad thin but i learned to mash a tad higher (mid to high 60's) they don't come out that bad.

PM Tony, He does a shitload of them, and i read in one of his threads that he even wrapped a 'leccy blanket around his fermenter and put it in the shed to finish off (as that yeast is notorious for getting sleepy towards the end of fermentation).


EDIT: Good luck with it and let us know how it goes! :icon_cheers:


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## pk.sax (4/11/11)

I put down one last weekend, used half a kilo of raw sugar into the boil.

From the sample in tube that I have that I'm using to culture up the dregs of the yeast packet, its still quite orange, no opaqueness or haziness at high temps, knocked over the tube when I opened the fridge so have to wait for it to settle again to see what it looks like colder.

I've fermented it ~25-30 so far, will take a reading today - the krausen has totally died out leaving a thin layer of bubbles, think I pitched monday evening.


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## [email protected] (4/11/11)

Nick JD, I have done a few saisons using this yeast. The recipe looks fine - I use about 10% of sugar in mine and also mash low (63C). The style is suposed to be dry often finishing around 1004-1006. 

One tip I got from Bridge Road Brewers and from the Farmhouse Ales book is the yeast doesn't mind being pitched warm so can be pitched at 25C and let rise to 30C. It also apparently becomes less tempermental after a few generations. If you need to finish off with another yeast ( I got impatient after a month at 30+C with a gravity still only 1035) I have generally cooled it down to 20C for the second yeast to do it's job.

Good luck.


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## mika (4/11/11)

35 didn't seem to do the yeast any harm, but my experience showed it slowing down once you got past about 32.
Can't say I agree with the warm pitch, that'd have to lead to fusels.
I started mine off sub 20 and then picked it up. Took +9wks to ferment out with that damn yeast.


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## pk.sax (4/11/11)

First 2 days got the wet towel + frozen bottle treatment.... I wasn't monitoring the temps though. Just took a reading at the start after putting the towel on - 23C.


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## zebba (4/11/11)

Mines up to two weeks in the fermenter now.

OG 1.053

Started @ 26, it took off and started throwing all sorts of lovely smells. 3 days in, krausen disappeared. I had been expecting this though and had been stepping up the temp gradually. It was sitting @ 1.038 after the first week. It's now been another week @ 32 degrees and is down to 1.019.

My recipe was 50% wey pils, 50% ding pils, styrian goldings to 25 IBU @ 60, then 30g saaz @ flameout (no-chill, so I counted it as a 10min addition for another 6 IBU)

I've got it sitting on a frdigemate controlled heat pad, and wrapped in a dirty big blanket. 

It's tasting mighty fine though. My first sample after week 1 was full of banana's, but my last sample the bananas had died off and it was starting to taste good


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## Nick JD (4/11/11)

Great info, fellas. Keep it coming - good to hear everybody's Saison experiences. 

I'm sure there's a lot of brewers considering an ambient ferment batch. I ummed and ahhhed about going for the French yeast - anyone got comments on that stuff? Is it much different to the Belgian? I've already got the Belgian yeast for this batch but I might try the frenchy too.

The only commercial saison I've tasted was Hennepin's Farmhouse Saison. It was EPIC. 

Whoa! 9 weeks ... think I'll bung it in a jerrycan fermenter and forget about it.


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## argon (4/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> Great info, fellas. Keep it coming - good to hear everybody's Saison experiences.
> 
> I'm sure there's a lot of brewers considering an ambient ferment batch. I ummed and ahhhed about going for the French yeast - anyone got comments on that stuff? Is it much different to the Belgian? I've already got the Belgian yeast for this batch but I might try the frenchy too.
> 
> ...


Yeah good info from all. Been considering a saison for couple of years now done outside the ferm fridge through summer. Looking to split a double batch with a mate who ferments at ambient anyway, so this could be starter.


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## Nick JD (4/11/11)

argon said:


> Yeah good info from all. Been considering a saison for couple of years now done outside the ferm fridge through summer. Looking to split a double batch with a mate who ferments at ambient anyway, so this could be starter.



Everything I read about this yeast is that it takes ages and ages, so I thought, why not just put it in the garage by the rollerdoor (like an oven in summer with the arvo sun on it) and walk away? Brew and forget brewing!


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## bconnery (4/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> Great info, fellas. Keep it coming - good to hear everybody's Saison experiences.
> 
> I'm sure there's a lot of brewers considering an ambient ferment batch. I ummed and ahhhed about going for the French yeast - anyone got comments on that stuff? Is it much different to the Belgian? I've already got the Belgian yeast for this batch but I might try the frenchy too.
> 
> ...



I love the French Saison yeast 3711. Less temperamental in my experience than what I've read about the belgian.
I've never let it get quite that hot personally but ambient temps in a garage in Brisbane around late September/October...
I haven't made a saison with the belgian one but my understanding is that the french is more on the spicey side, perhaps less bubblegum etc. 

I've used the 3711 in some other styles too. 
Goes great in a stout when fermemted a little cooler, under 20, so it stops a little earlier than the usual. 
I believe others have let it dry a stout right out too...


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## pk.sax (4/11/11)

Mofo is @ 1032, 1035 with temp correction. basterd.

Started at 1053 just like urs Zebba.







Tastes nice. Was done with all styrian Goldings. Chilled and settled tube is very hazy. I remember it was crystal clear sitting on the bench at ambient.


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## manticle (4/11/11)

I've only ever used French Saison 3711. I was happy with the results. Exact recipe escapes me but it was very simple - euro pils, wheat malt and some kind of noble hop for low 30ish IBU.

As far as style goes (not that I'd believe you care nor should care about that) saison historically has varied widely. Some are bitter, some are hoppy, some are spiced, some are not, etc. Historically low alc and dry finish but as the style has evolved and/or become revived, even that is not a given.

This summer, I have plans for at least 3 saisons - one with Belgian saison WY, one with French and one with PC farmhouse ale.

All same grist (pils, wheat) all with noble hops (probably spalt and maybe some saaz and/or styrians) to about 35 IBU and all starting at 20 for 2-3 days then being allowed to run riot to whatever Melbourne summer gives us (not a lot by the current given state of things). Mashed low so no real need for dextrose.


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## Tony (4/11/11)

Nick that yeast will take till feburary at under 25 deg.......... I have made Saisons with it at 28 to 32 deg fermented out in 2 weeks (from 1.038 to 1.002 or so) and it was almost clean!

Pitch it nice and healthy, and get lots of air in the wort, and keep it warm.

Im waiting for my garage to get over 26 and them in going to hammer them this summer........ astually i should get a fresh yeast.

cheers


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## manticle (4/11/11)

Do you pitch low then let rip tony or just go for broke (belgian saison I mean)?


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## Nick JD (4/11/11)

I recently made a board using a surfboard-based epoxy that (okay, seems I'm on the wrong forum ... read on!) was recommended to me to do a "post-cure", which is a mild "bake" between 35 and 50C. 

Some guys put it in their car. But I've had boards go shrinkydink in hot cars, so I put a thermometer up against the roller door in my garage and fark, the door is about 55C, and within a foot of it is 35C. You can actually feel the heat radiate off it.

So I put the board up against it and DONE. Crisp, postcured epoxy - sanded like a dream - rock hard. 

As the old brain does some times, I got thinking about the reliable 35C on nice days about a foot from the door. Always stays closed. SAISON! 

So Tony - if I can get it above 30C ... will it be done in a month?


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## pk.sax (4/11/11)

What do people do to kick it out of slumber once it's stuck at 1035?!


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## beers (4/11/11)

manticle said:


> I've only ever used French Saison 3711. I was happy with the results. Exact recipe escapes me but it was very simple - euro pils, wheat malt and some kind of noble hop for low 30ish IBU.
> 
> As far as style goes (not that I'd believe you care nor should care about that) saison historically has varied widely. Some are bitter, some are hoppy, some are spiced, some are not, etc. Historically low alc and dry finish but as the style has evolved and/or become revived, even that is not a given.
> 
> ...



Spot on.
Keep it simple. Ditch the sugar & crystal, use a pils / wheat grainbill (or pils/rye, pils/spelt bill if you're feeling adventurous), pick a highly attenuative yeast, & mash low.


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## bunyips (4/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> What do people do to kick it out of slumber once it's stuck at 1035?!


 Ummmm... sorry to sound dumb but should this be a north queensland specialty?


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## winkle (4/11/11)

manticle said:


> I've only ever used French Saison 3711. I was happy with the results. Exact recipe escapes me but it was very simple - euro pils, wheat malt and some kind of noble hop for low 30ish IBU.
> 
> As far as style goes (not that I'd believe you care nor should care about that) saison historically has varied widely. Some are bitter, some are hoppy, some are spiced, some are not, etc. Historically low alc and dry finish but as the style has evolved and/or become revived, even that is not a given.
> 
> ...



farmhouse ale :icon_drool2:


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## Tony (4/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> So Tony - if I can get it above 30C ... will it be done in a month?



That yeast can be dificult to use...... i have had it finnish in 2 weeks, and i have had it finnish in 2 months.

I pitch it at 25+ and dont let it cool down....... use an electric blanket if you need to but i find when it cools down a few deg..... it goes into protest.



practicalfool said:


> What do people do to kick it out of slumber once it's stuck at 1035?!



HEAT!

30 to 32 deg and hope for the best. Once it slows down it stays slow, but is always ticking away........ its not a conventional yeast we are used to...... its a very different animal!

have fun


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## pk.sax (4/11/11)

bunyips said:


> Ummmm... sorry to sound dumb but should this be a north queensland specialty?


Hahahaha. Lets hope so  it's 29 in the evening here. Inside the house!

Thnx Tony. I gave the fermented a few swirls and ripped the towel off it. Here is hoping I see some gas still bubbling out an hour later.


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## bunyips (4/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> Hahahaha. Lets hope so  it's 29 in the evening here. Inside the house!
> 
> Thnx Tony. I gave the fermented a few swirls and ripped the towel off it. Here is hoping I see some gas still bubbling out an hour later.


Hops and high ferment temp yeasts would be gold


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## Tony (4/11/11)

Give this a go.......... i highly recomend it and it will be very nice side by side with a Witbier in 40 deg heat i feel.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...t=0&start=0


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## Tanga (4/11/11)

I've tried a couple of saisons at the Wheaty. The first was okay, but not one I'd order again. But the second ... amazing. It was a black saison. Any recipes for something like that would be much appreciated.


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## Charst (4/11/11)

Ive read as much as i can about the dupont strain and there seems to be a bit of conjecture as to weather its a single stain or not. From what I've read the wryest / whitelabs Dupont strain is 1 of 4 strains in the Dupont bottle, but its the 1 of the 4 that creates the right Dupont characters. It may not be the strain that attenuates the best out off the group though.

After creating 2 decent saisons with the Wyyeast 3711 (find them a bit Belgian wit-ish though) I'm thinking about reculturing the dupont yeast right out of the bottle, ferment that till it drops off then dump some 3711 (built up on a starter to high krausen) into it to finish the job.

thoughts?


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## Nick JD (5/11/11)

Tony said:


> I pitch it at 25+ and dont let it cool down....... use an electric blanket if you need to but i find when it cools down a few deg..... it goes into protest.



Gonna pitch at 30C! Feels unsettling... :huh:


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## pk.sax (5/11/11)

The fridge sample was well and clear, moving it stirred it up a little.

Also, swirl around yesterday got it kicking again, thin layer of active looking yeast on top now, some bubbling through that can be seen. Sitting constant 26C on its own, I'll see if it needs the heat belt tonight...


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## drtomc (5/11/11)

Saison is my house style. Dupont must be close to my favorite beer. 

I never use crystal, but various ratios of Pils/ale, wheat, and sometimes unmalted wheat or rye. 

Personally, I go easy on late hops, preferring a single 60min addition of something noble. 

I use the Belgian yeast. Pitch at 24, and raise it 1 degree every two days up to 28. I usually rack after a few days at 28, then hold it at 28 for a couple of weeks. If it isn't done then, I leave it at ambient for a few more weeks. 

Never needed other yeast - I usually get about 90% attenuation. The complex esters and alcohols give a sweetness and body that means even at 1.006 it is not thin tasting.


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## Nick JD (7/11/11)

The sun's just hit the roller door and I've got 30C ambient. Pretty soon the door will be about 55C, so hopefully the average temperature of the fermenter (sits about 10cm off the door) will be in the late 20s, early 30s.

It smells awesome under the teatowel and gladwrap ... when the petrol from the mower is drifting the other way. Mmmmm, garage brewing.


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## pk.sax (7/11/11)

Upping the temps to re-kick it worked. Its an active ferment atm. I'm putting the heater belt on for the nights, pushes it to 32C.... keeping it hot, never thought I'll hear myself say that about beer ferments.


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## Nick JD (8/11/11)

It's tasting delicious already. Getting pears and bubblegum. Had 32C all afternoon today, and I reckon mid-twenties at night so the wort must be in the late 20s on average with a bit of fermentation heat.


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## Tony (8/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> It's tasting delicious already. Getting pears and bubblegum. Had 32C all afternoon today, and I reckon mid-twenties at night so the wort must be in the late 20s on average with a bit of fermentation heat.



PERFECT!


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## pk.sax (9/11/11)

Nick, what is your gravity? Mine is still fizzing madly at 30C after I woke it up. I'll take a reading soon and post.


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## Nick JD (10/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> Nick, what is your gravity? Mine is still fizzing madly at 30C after I woke it up. I'll take a reading soon and post.



1.023

I'm getting buckets of pear in the aroma but the flavour is loquat bigtime. Esters! Whoa! 

I've got a Dubbel fermenting at 20C also that's insanely banana, pineapple and cloves, and it's getting shown up by the Saison. Never thought I would say 1214 was bland in comparison.


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## zebba (10/11/11)

Mines up to 3 weeks now and down to 1.015. Dropped only a handful of points over the last week... Tasting bloody good though


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## pk.sax (10/11/11)

Mine is still fizzing madly so I am leaving it alone until the fermentation slows down or stops... I've used the heater belt a few times now. Always kicks it into a faster gear. It's quite weird needin to use a heater up here in cairns. All the fermentation seems to be happening sub-wort now. No more top ferm by the looks of it. I can see the bubbles coming out of pretty clear wort.


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## pk.sax (12/11/11)

1021. Annoying. On goes the belt again.

Aroma was very clovey. Had heaps of banana from under the glad wrap. Nose is prolly too blocked up from the cool 26-28C today to detect anything else. Could whiff some other subtler aromas earlier but nothing today.

Taste has a slight alcoholic bite. Very slight, less than what I'd get from a duvel for example. The sweetness has gone away, bitterness comes out. Should be great at serving temp. Slightly cloying because of the incomplete fermentation atm.

I'm wondering if I should just rack it into a keg and add a little rehydrated wine or lager yeast?! I can always just flush the trub in the first pour.....

PS: as usual, heat belt has set it off again.


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## winkle (12/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> 1021. Annoying. On goes the belt again.
> 
> Aroma was very clovey. Had heaps of banana from under the glad wrap. Nose is prolly too blocked up from the cool 26-28C today to detect anything else. Could whiff some other subtler aromas earlier but nothing today.
> 
> ...



Just let it do its thing at ambient, should crawl its way to a low SG around 1.005 after three/four weeks, after the 
'stall' its slow but steady with not much evidence of ferment. Patience dude, its a different beast but worth it.


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## Tony (12/11/11)

Spot on winkle........ it gets down to 1.020 odd and then put put puts its way down very slowly.

Just kick it in the corner, forget about it and check it again in 2 weeks.

When the FG hasnt changed in a week..... then bottle or keg it. If you rush it..... you can get bottle bombs.

cheers


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## Nick JD (12/11/11)

Mine's fizzing away madly through the gladwrap. Bloody hot though ... 34C right now. 

I'm kegging, and not filtering this one, so no worries about bombs. It's already got that "silky, weird low body" thing going. 

Dunno if I'll wait to get it to the very bottom FG if it takes 2 weeks to drop 4 points - a tiny bit of sweetness seems appropriate in there with that amount of fruit.


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## Tanga (12/11/11)

Mine's mashing now @ 66. It's pretty complex, with a fair wack of Munich and some last minute rolled oats coz I could. I'm adding a few spices too (not enough to taste, just complexity). Can't wait.


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

It's done. 1.009 - probably might drop a few more points but I'm gonna bung it in the keg and have at it. There's zero activity (no bubbles rising) so I suspect that's probably it. If I was bottling I'd give it a few more days - but since it's sat at 34C every afternoon I have a feeling that's done it. My mash was 68C, so I'm not thinking it'll get as low as some Saisons.







Will take a photo and do a taste test day after tomorrow when it's cold and carbed. 

:icon_cheers: 

I'm using the saved yeast for a "mild saison" to be made tomorrow; true to the historic style like Tony suggested. A 1.040, Pils malt only, EKG to 25 IBUs.

WY3724 = :wub: A yeast that makes great beer at 34C!


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## Tony (18/11/11)

Tanga said:


> Mine's mashing now @ 66.



66 deg wont give you the really low FG you want......... better to mash at 63 - 64 with a quick 10 ot 15 min hit at 71 perhaps.

Thats what i will be doing this summer.

I pitched a 1 year old vial of Belgian Saison thats been patiently sitting in the kegorator since 14.11.2010 in a starter last night...... and its fizzing nicely in the 28 deg garage now just 24 hrs later.

Very happy!

Gunna make the Bulls Head Summer Saison but use Golden Naked oats in it to see what they do.

cheers


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

You put any sugar in your low OG Saisons, Tony? 

I thought with the nutso attenuation and the sugar I needed a hot mash - do I want it finishing that dry?

I reckon I could tell someone it was Perry!


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## Tony (18/11/11)

dude............ thats how its suposed to be...... dry tart and acidic.

Low FG is the go!

Quotes From BJCP............

Overall Impression: A refreshing, medium to strong fruity/spicy ale with a distinctive yellow-orange color, highly carbonated, well hopped, and dry with a quenching acidity.

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.048 1.065
IBUs: 20 35 FG: 1.002 1.012
SRM: 5 14 ABV: 5 7%


Edit...... and no sugar..... mash low!


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## pk.sax (18/11/11)

this brew is behaving funny.

I'd come home to find the gladwrap kinda limp, will give it a tap so I can see in and then tighten it, within 15 minutes the gladwrap blows up again. Since I took the heat belt off its re-developed a thin layer of foam again (its not infected, I'm sure of that). My last test a few days ago was 1012 or 1015. I'll have to do one again!


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

I'd like to try to get one to 1.002

This Saison caper is mental. Still can't get past putting the fermenter in the hottest part of the house. I'm going to add heating to my STC-1000 so I can have these in winter too (and a bit more control).


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> this brew is behaving funny.



What's the temp there. Must be 30C+?

How much did you pitch. Mine's only a 16L batch and I pitched a whole pack with a lot of aeration.


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## Tony (18/11/11)

They are not easy beers to make.... they are simple beers but take a lot of mental weok i think.

We get so used to beers just fermenting out in said time at said temp........ This stuff is way outside the square!

I have had them take 3 weeks and then 3 months with the same repitched yeast.

I truly believe its pH related when it comes to this yeast and i will be testing wort pH this time round before putching and recording results.

I think its why people have such varied results and varied fermentation times, and my different timew were between a pale saison with acidulated malt, and a Saison stout with shed loads of roast malts in there.

I recon there is a majic pH level and i plan to find it!


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## pk.sax (18/11/11)

@ Tony That'd be good! I just added a little CaCl2 without thinking to the mash anyway as my PH was 5.2-5.4 ish already.

@ Nick, yeah, most of its been done @ 32 on the kitchen bench. I do notice it dips to 28ish without the heat at night. anyway, its just the space and fermenter tied up, I wanted to have one easy drinking one kegged and ready as my last brew is a bit harsh on the hops (galaxy no-chilled... no adjustment) and needs a bit more mellowing out. I'll just prepare better next time and put this one in a cube where I don't have to worry about it taking up space.

Also, I kinda wanted to do a braggot with the LCBA grain bill on this yeast cake next. just for fun


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

Tony said:


> I recon there is a majic pH level and i plan to find it!



So the patented 1.030 stall is due to the pH getting critically low during fermetation?

Just read about the same thing happening in Mead and the addition of KOH at stall to bump the pH that gets lowered by CO2 (carbonic acid?). Interesting stuff.

Wonder why mine didn't stall?


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## wraith (18/11/11)

My first Saison got first place in state comps a few years ago (2007) (it was my 5th AG) (here's a couple of pics, first is of the trophies (with Bo Pils trophy), second is the end of Jayse's score sheet (thanks Jayse, love it). If interested in the recipe let me know, happy to share.





Wraith


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## wraith (18/11/11)

Stained with beer of course 

Wraith


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## Nick JD (18/11/11)

wraith said:


> If interested in the recipe let me know, happy to share.



Noice! Can you post the recipe?


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## Tony (18/11/11)

Yes......... recipe please 




Nick JD said:


> So the patented 1.030 stall is due to the pH getting critically low during fermetation?
> 
> Just read about the same thing happening in Mead and the addition of KOH at stall to bump the pH that gets lowered by CO2 (carbonic acid?). Interesting stuff.
> 
> Wonder why mine didn't stall?




I had one not stall and it was the best of them all.

Perhaps i should take regular pH readings and map it.

Mmmmmmm should be fun


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## wraith (19/11/11)

OK, this was the recipe, bear in mind if I was to do this again, I would change it (this was made in 2007) I'll write the recipe as it was, then say what I would change.

89% Pils (5.3kg)
10% Pale Wheat (595g)
1% CaraMunich I (60g)
(All Weyermann)

OG was 1.049, mash @ 63c
35L boil/23.5L final
IBU was 23.26

EKG 5.06% Plugs @ 40 to go, 40g
EKG 5.06% Plugs @ 15 to go, 28g
EKG 5.06% Plugs @ 0, 30g
Czech Saaz 3.4% Pellets @ 0, 20g

Yeast: Wyeast 3724 Saison

*Now I would change the pils malt to Dingeman's because it's Belgian and up the CaraMunich a little, maybe 5%. And maybe also the Wheat.

The thing is the new version may not be as good, but you have to try don't you? That's how you learn and it's fun to try and better yourself.

Wraith


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## Charst (19/11/11)

wraith said:


> OK, this was the recipe, bear in mind if I was to do this again, I would change it (this was made in 2007) I'll write the recipe as it was, then say what I would change.
> 
> 89% Pils (5.3kg)
> 10% Pale Wheat (595g)
> ...





My Recipe was very similar, 90% dingermans pils (its what farmhouse ales says dupont use(100% belgian pilsner malt))
10% local wheat.

55 for 10. mashed at 63 for an hour, ramped to 65 for 30, ramped to mashout.

EKG all the way

28 IBU bittering, 

40g at knockout.

3711 yeast,started at 19 degrees for 2 days then went up half a degree before and after work, every 12 hoursish till i got to 27. 

not a huge hop character and lacking bitterness when compared to Dupont. still a great beer, one of the best I've done, noticeable WIT characteristics from the 3711. also in starter which was built up at 20. think i should have ramped quicker after initial 2 days to get more saisony flavours. let us know how the 3724 goes.


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## Nick JD (20/11/11)

I just did another Saison with Wey Ale malt and Amarillo ... yup, Amarillo! Heh heh. 

Reckon the fruity hops might go pretty well with this yeast.

Nelson Sauvin seems an obvious choice, but I have none.

While I only have room for one batch in my fermenting fridge, I'm filling any old vessel and chucking a Saison in the shed to sweat!


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## jyo (20/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> I just did another Saison with Wey Ale malt and Amarillo ... yup, Amarillo! Heh heh.
> 
> Reckon the fruity hops might go pretty well with this yeast.
> 
> ...



Nick, I pitched a cube of Tony's LCBA clone with some French saison last year....sensational. Down from 1042 to 1002!! It was a great summer beer.
Ask Tony about his Stout Saison :icon_cheers:


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## zebba (20/11/11)

Kids found my fermenter. I'd glad wrapped it and rested a lid on top for extra security. Lid was gone and glad wrap had finger holes all through it. Not happy. Fingers are crossed, but I'm not holding my breath.

Last gravity reading was a week ago and it was down to 1.011. So close...


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## Tony (20/11/11)

Saison Stout

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 27.00 Wort Size (L): 27.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.45
Anticipated OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.72
Anticipated EBC: 70.6
Anticipated IBU: 34.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
62.0 4.00 kg. Weyermann Premium Pilsner Germany 1.038 3
15.5 1.00 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
7.8 0.50 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 4
4.7 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
4.7 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 1100
3.1 0.20 kg. Special B Belgium 1.035 310
2.3 0.15 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1100

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
80.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 30.7 45 min.
12.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 2.1 15 min.
20.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 1.4 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


Edit: If i ever changed it i would drop the carabohemian to get it a bit more roasty dry


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## drtomc (20/11/11)

Looks amazing Tony. How does the carafa sit with the yeast flavors? I'm struggling to marry them in my head. 

T.


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## Tony (20/11/11)

well....... it was a whole lot of "lots going on" thats for sure 

I took it to a club night here in Newcastle and everyone loved it....... but said they couldnt drink lots of it in a sitting.

It wasnt a quaffer but it was very nice.

All the roast kind of hid the yeast fruit but the yeast fruit kind of mellowed the roast and it ended up a tad sweetish..... hence why i would drop the crystal.

Maybe even use Vienna in stead of the Munich too.

Ahhh hell its a base anyone can play with that was a good beer. Adjust to your tastes 

I liked it but will stick with pale Saisons i think. They are ment to be quaffers and a 7.5% stout aint no quaffer


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## jyo (20/11/11)

It looks great!


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## Tanga (21/11/11)

What was your FG Tony? My dark Saison (mashed @ 66*) is sitting on 1008. Tastes sweet though. I can't really detect any funk either, does it need to be brewed hot for that? My Saison started out warmer, but is now only 22.


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## Nick JD (21/11/11)

Tanga said:


> What was your FG Tony? My dark Saison (mashed @ 66*) is sitting on 1008. Tastes sweet though. I can't really detect any funk either, does it need to be brewed hot for that? My Saison started out warmer, but is now only 22.



I find I get more funk from the biere de guard yeast - there's a tiny hint of it in the saison, but it's drowning behind the pear and loquat esters. 

I'm quite happy with the FG (mine was 1.009). The one fermenting atm will probably go lower - to see if I like that better - but I see from the BJCP and other saison threads on other sites that very low FGs are the exception, not the rule. 

Methinks Tony might be right into thin saisons.


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## Tanga (21/11/11)

Yeah, apart from the colour I'm spot on for the suggested numbers, and it tastes good.

I seem to remember reading about someone who added some Orval dregs to the bottling bucket. How'd that go? I want to add some funk and sourness, so was thinking of adding the dregs (cultured up) to half a batch.


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## drtomc (21/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> I'm quite happy with the FG (mine was 1.009). The one fermenting atm will probably go lower - to see if I like that better - but I see from the BJCP and other saison threads on other sites that very low FGs are the exception, not the rule.
> 
> Methinks Tony might be right into thin saisons.



I don't have Farmhouse Ales in front of me, so I could be wrong, but I think the commercial Belgian examples (which ought to define they style as much as anything), Dupont in particular, have pretty low FG.

My experience (and Saison is my most-brewed style), is that even with low FG (mine mostly come out 1.005-1.008), they avoid tasting thin because of the intense ester profile from the yeast, also because I tend to brew them stronger rather than weaker (OG typically round 1.060), the ester-alcohol reaction products contribute a perception of body that is much greater than you'd expect from the FG.

2c,
T.


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## Nick JD (21/11/11)

drtomc said:


> I don't have Farmhouse Ales in front of me, so I could be wrong, but I think the commercial Belgian examples (which ought to define they style as much as anything), Dupont in particular, have pretty low FG.
> 
> My experience (and Saison is my most-brewed style), is that even with low FG (mine mostly come out 1.005-1.008), they avoid tasting thin because of the intense ester profile from the yeast, also because I tend to brew them stronger rather than weaker (OG typically round 1.060), the ester-alcohol reaction products contribute a perception of body that is much greater than you'd expect from the FG.
> 
> ...



While I agree a big part of Saison seems to be the low FG ... almost all literature seems to say that somewhere around 1.010 is "normal". 

Even Wyeast says 1.010-1.016 http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_styledetails.cfm?ID=176

I'm not gonna sit there watching it for a month after it hits single figures!


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## stl (21/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> While I agree a big part of Saison seems to be the low FG ... almost all literature seems to say that somewhere around 1.010 is "normal".



I'm pretty sure I recall reading in Farmhouse Ales that they often finish below 1.010..



Nick JD said:


> Even Wyeast says 1.010-1.016 http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_styledetails.cfm?ID=176
> 
> I'm not gonna sit there watching it for a month after it hits single figures!



My last one took just three weeks to get from 1.040 to 1.004 in the low 20s. (That was 3kg Weyermann FM Bo Pils, 500g rolled oats, 500g malted rye; some Styrian Goldings and coriander at 10min... and damn tasty.)

So that puts the OG below what Wyeast says as well... but that's what I'm usually after in the style, exactly what is often cited as the original motivation behind the style -- something refreshing for farm workers on a warm day, and beyond 5% really doesn't do it for me. (Not that I don't enjoy the stronger ones.)


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## Nick JD (21/11/11)

Here 'tis.

First thing that hits ya is the acidity. It's very prominent - there's a sharpness there that's kinda like a dry white wine, I think because immediately following the bite is a rush of fruitiness. The esters have subdued a LOT since my fermenter tastings, but my best descriptor would be unripe pear (you know, a really crunchy one) chased by an unripe strawberry. Makes a hefe's tartness seem tame. 

The mouthfeel is weirdly silky. I mashed pretty high - so some of that's dextrins - and used a fair whack of sugaz to get 1.009, but the only thing I can compare it to is a Biere de Guard in mouthfeel. 

Aroma is pear city. A hint of alcohol (~5.5%) 

Aftertaste has a hint of funk. Like a BdG's funk 'cept mellower. A tiny bit of "corked twang", but only in the last of the aftertaste. Something I grew to like with last summer's BdGs.

I have a feeling that late American and NZ hops would work wonders with this yeast. Especially the citrus ones.


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## pk.sax (21/11/11)

Looking very nice.

Mine has sprouted a 10mm ish thick second Krausen and looks like it wants to ferment out. I'm just letting it be at this stage. 26C is normal temp atm.


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## petesbrew (23/11/11)

Brewed up the Saison last night.
The Perle hops were 6AA% initially but are '06 vintage :huh: , so I reckon dropping down to 4 % was okay.

Despite the rain there were no hiccups, apart from a dangerous heavy lifting exercise. (lifting hot kettle onto a table - I must get a brew stand!)
Providing the yeast doesn't stall this may squeeze in by my son's birthday in mid Jan.
Initial taste is great, and clarity is brilliant.
Cheers again to Tony for the initial recipe.

Shakey Jake's Saison

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.35
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.750
Anticipated EBC: 9.1
Anticipated IBU: 29.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 76 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
74.8 4.00 kg. Pale Ale Malt (2-row) Australia 1.037 5
18.7 1.00 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
3.7 0.20 kg. CaraPilsner France 1.035 20
2.8 0.15 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.000 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.00 g. Perle Pellet 4.00 20.8 60 min.
22.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.80 4.2 15 min.
22.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 8.00 4.4 5 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP565 Belgian Saison I


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## pk.sax (24/11/11)

Kegged it today. Dropped to 1005. Well, it dropped and then was starting to develop some infection like bubbles. Doesn't smell funky. Anyway, the clarity of it coming out of the fermenter was amazing. If I wasn't a bit sick today I'd be getting into it. No discernible banana aroma.


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## Nick JD (25/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> Kegged it today. Dropped to 1005. Well, it dropped and then was starting to develop some infection like bubbles. Doesn't smell funky. Anyway, the clarity of it coming out of the fermenter was amazing. If I wasn't a bit sick today I'd be getting into it. No discernible banana aroma.



Mine's mellowed a bit. Dried apricots now. I never got any banana.


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## Tony (26/11/11)

Just running a 34 liter batch of Saison to the kettle now. GOing to split it between 2 x 17L cubes and ferment them side by side.

one with belgian saison, one with french saison.

recipe:

Golden Saison

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 34.00 Wort Size (L): 34.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.75
Anticipated OG: 1.040 Plato: 9.89
Anticipated EBC: 7.0
Anticipated IBU: 27.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.3 4.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
10.4 0.60 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4
8.7 0.50 kg. Simpson Golden naked oats :icon_chickcheers: UK 1.032 15
2.6 0.15 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.00 19.6 45 min.
20.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 6.50 5.7 15 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 2.4 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison




mashed at 52 for 10 min, infused to 63 for 45 min then infused to 71. Mashed out at this.

this is going to be fun 

Edit: boil times are with 5 min added to give me no chill bitterness....... its will be 40, 10, 0


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## pk.sax (12/12/11)

This keg of saison is emptying fast!


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## drtomc (12/12/11)

I reckon Saison is a top drop. Pretty much my house style.

T.


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## lock (12/12/11)

drtomc said:


> I reckon Saison is a top drop. Pretty much my house style.
> 
> T.



It amazes me that none of the micros have really gone full throttle on the style. I reckon it's pretty much ideal for Brisbane weather.

I hope to do my first saison in Jan when I get back from hols.


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## punkin (13/12/11)

I did a 90l batch of Bullhead Saison the other week and pitched the belgian saison yeast on half and put the other half on top of a nottingham yeast cake.

I'm drinking the ale atm, and i have to say the acidulated malt comes through in a way that is really not to my taste. I have 50l of brew that tastes lightly of piss. :lol: 

Hoping the saison yeast one will be a lot better and by my fermenter tastes so far i think it will be. B)


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## drtomc (13/12/11)

Keep in mind that most of the flavour in a Saison comes from the yeast.

My first Saison was (from memory) about 50/50 Pils malt & wheat malt with a single 90min hop addition. Really bland on its own, but the finished beer was one of my best. The Belgian Saison yeast is a diva!

T.


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## Nick JD (13/12/11)

My Amarillo Saison has heaps of cloves. Weird yeast. 

Last time I got heaps of pear during ferment, then it mellowed to be dried apricots. 

Wonder what the thrid generation will bring?


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## drtomc (13/12/11)

Remind me, which yeast was that?


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## Nick JD (14/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> Gonna put a Belgian Saison down in a warm corner of the garage for a few weeks now it's getting summery. Does this recipe have any issues?
> 
> 17L
> 3.5kg Wey Pils
> ...


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## drtomc (14/12/11)

Curious. It's probably my dead palette, but I've never got cloves from 3724.

OTOH, my latest Saison used 500g dark candi sugar and has fantastic dark fruit in the aroma.

T.


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## Nick JD (14/12/11)

drtomc said:


> Curious. It's probably my dead palette, but I've never got cloves from 3724.
> 
> OTOH, my latest Saison used 500g dark candi sugar and has fantastic dark fruit in the aroma.
> 
> T.



Might be the really low OG and only a 60 minute hop addition. Also, it hummed along at 35C and was done in days. Here's the recipe:

18L
3.4kg Wey Pale Ale
50g Caramunich 3
24g Amarillo 60 min
3724


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## drtomc (14/12/11)

Could be the OG - I tend to go for round 1.060 - 1.070, but I also only do 1 hop addition early.

Could just be I've got a wooden palette and just fail to taste it. 

T.


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## punkin (14/12/11)

Tasted my Bullshead Saison again today, it's down to 1011 and cruising down pretty well, which means that i'll have a yeast cake shortly to pitch onto.
I've been through the RDB and looked at all the Saisons listed there and having trouble finding one that matches the ingredients i have and also leaves out the acidulated malt.
That's just out of my appreciation range

Any suggestions for a malt bill for a new batch?

i have ale, pilsener, munich1, wheat, rye, caramalt, chocolate porter and crystal 140.

Help would be appreciated, i don't know enough to design a recipe, although i'm learning slowly.


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## drtomc (14/12/11)

I'm not an expert, myself, but I've had good success with 80%-90% pils 10%-20% munich i to an OG of 1.060. Single 90min hop addition 20-25 IBUs. BIAB infusion mash 90min @ 63C. I'm sure you could sub between the pils and ale malts with no trouble. The flavor is very much driven by the yeast, so the malt bill is pretty flexible.

T.


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## Nick JD (14/12/11)

You could probably deconstruct a recipe from BJCP's style guide. 

_Ingredients: Pilsner malt dominates the grist though a portion of Vienna and/or Munich malt contributes color and complexity. Adjuncts such as candi sugar and honey can also serve to add complexity and thin the body. Hop bitterness and flavor may be more noticeable than in many other Belgian styles. A saison is sometimes dry-hopped. Noble hops, Styrian or East Kent Goldings are commonly used. A wide variety of herbs and spices are generally used to add complexity and uniqueness in the stronger versions. Varying degrees of acidity and/or sourness can be created by the use of gypsum, acidulated malt, a sour mash or Lactobacillus. Hard water, common to most of Wallonia, can accentuate the bitterness and dry finish.
_


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## punkin (22/12/11)

My Bullshead is ready to keg and i'd like to pitch a new brew on the lees tomorrow. I'm keen on a darker brown beer.

I had a play in Brewmate with the guidelines in mind and came up with this...


*Brown Saison1* (Saison)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.004 (P): 1.0
Alcohol (ABV): 5.78 %
Colour (SRM): 13.2 (EBC): 26.0
Bitterness (IBU): 29.5 (Average)

80% Pilsner
8% Munich I
6% Crystal 140
4% Wheat Malt
2% Chocolate

1.8 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Hallertau Tradition (3.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)


Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20C with PRO-22 - BELGIAN SAISON


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*

Crystal 140 is Crystal medium.

I'd appreciate any comments or advise. I added some late hops in as the style said it was a little stronger on hop presence and thought i'd add flameout instead of dry hopping?


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## Nick JD (22/12/11)

punkin said:


> My Bullshead is ready to keg and i'd like to pitch a new brew on the lees tomorrow. I'm keen on a darker brown beer.
> 
> I had a play in Brewmate with the guidelines in mind and came up with this...
> 
> ...



Looks good. I'm not sure you can really make a "wrong" saison, can you? Seems to be a pretty broad style.

I've got one in the shed ATM that's basically an APA. 40 IBUs of Citra at 15 minutes. It's tasting AMAZING in the fermenter.


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## punkin (22/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> Looks good. I'm not sure you can really make a "wrong" saison, can you? Seems to be a pretty broad style.
> 
> I've got one in the shed ATM that's basically an APA. 40 IBUs of Citra at 15 minutes. It's tasting AMAZING in the fermenter.




You beat my edit. i had palemalt showing instead of the medium crystal due to a scolling acident <_<


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## punkin (23/12/11)

Had some feedback from Tony and revised the recipe to this;


*Brown Saison1* (Saison)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.004 (P): 1.0
Alcohol (ABV): 5.78 %
Colour (SRM): 16.9 (EBC): 33.3
Bitterness (IBU): 29.5 (Average)

77% Pilsner
15% Munich I
4% Chocolate
4% Crystal 140

1.8 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Hallertau Tradition (3.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)


Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20C with PRO-22 - BELGIAN SAISON


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


It's in the mash tun now, so too late for changes. :icon_cheers:


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## Tony (6/1/12)

HOw did it go Punkin?



I have a bit of a conclusion to my little saison experiment

I made 34L of Bullshead Summer Saison, only i added 8.7% Simpson Golden Naked Oats ........ cause im a homebrewer and i could 

Recipe:

Test Saison

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 34.00 Wort Size (L): 34.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.75
Anticipated OG: 1.040 Plato: 9.89
Anticipated EBC: 7.0
Anticipated IBU: 23.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.3 4.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
10.4 0.60 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4
8.7 0.50 kg. TF Pale Oat Malt UK 1.032 15
2.6 0.15 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5



Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.00 19.6 45 min.
20.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 6.50 4.2 10 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison
&
WYeast 3711 French Saison



I split the brew into 2 cubes, and pitched them both side by side with different yeasts.... 3711 and 3724.

Garage sat ay a fairly constant 25 to 28 deg they whole time.

I actually got very high efficiency and ended up with 1.048. Lost a liter to racking filtering and tasting and added 3 liters of water to each filtered keg before carbonating to give origional desired ABV of 5%
3711 fermented out first..... to 1.003 in about 8 - 10 days
3724 took 3 weeks and got down to 1.004

Left is 3724, right 3711







Tasting:

3711: Aroma is deep and one dimentional, earthy apples and lemon. Flavour is the same as arome with some nice malt behind the initial earthy citrus yeast character. Bugger all hops but it was no chill (hop killer) and bone dry. A touch of sweetness from low bitterness in the finnish

3724: Arona is of bright summer fruits like peach and pear. Flavour is mild fruity flavours which are almost sweet and floral in the mouth, well ballanced with Pilsner malt flavours. Also no hops due to no chill but the finnish is a touch sweeter than 3711 even with the dryness of the beer ballancing well.

Conclusion:

Both yeasts are great yeasts! 

But i far prefer the 3724 Belgian Saison over the 3711 French Saison.

the 3724 beer is far more pleasant to drink, brighter, more aromatic and flavoursom, better ballanced .... morish!

the 3711 beer is still a great beer, i kust feel 3711 produces a better flavoured beer. 

The 3711 was very fast to ferment, cleared well, and will make great winter saison with a heat blanket! But when its hot...... its 3724 i will be using to brew fine fine saison.

Love it!


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## punkin (7/1/12)

It went glug, glug glug as i tipped 40l out of two kegs down the drain on xmas day :unsure: 

It got an infection and though i chilled and gassed it with prayers it was undrinkable. :icon_vomit: 

That's the end of the saion for me for the time being as i was too stupid to save some of the yeast before i pitched.


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## manticle (7/1/12)

Tony said:


> 3724 took 3 weeks and got down to 1.004



Mine got to 1010 and stayed there for a bit so I tightened the cube abd whacked her in the fridge for the two weeks I was away. I had a feeling she might have more to go but didn't want to leave an unsealed cube around in hot weather for that long. Took her out of the fridge a couple of days ago to see if she will kickstart.

From memory my mash temp was around 63 (actually likely a step mash from 63 to 67 but 63 step would have been a decent length) so going on your experience, I can expect to get at least 1005-1006 before considering another bout of CC?

French saison is surprisingly good considering I poured most of the first runnings on the ground and still made the wort up to full volume - light saison flavours, slightly bready, slightly spicy, low alc, dry and refreshing and clear as a bell (no finings etc). Perfect summer beer.


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## Tony (7/1/12)

manticle said:


> (actually likely a step mash from 63 to* 67 *but 63 step would have been a decent length)



theres your problem i recon

I go 52, 63, 71........ 10 min, 45 min, 10 min recirc to clear then mash out at this 71.

Mine got to 1.012 in about 1.5 weeks and took the next week to finnish down to 1.004

It really is a "be patient and forget it for a month" yeast

cheers


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## manticle (7/1/12)

Last couple of days out of the fridge saw her get to about 1007. I'll be leaving it for another week (readings dependent) before whacking in the fridge again but I have faith in my step mash regime. Just don't want to bottle too early - nearly got fooled the first time I used 3711.

Any problems probably stemmed more from my inability to get the temp up more than about 27 for a decent length of time as summer here has been slow to start. Putting cubes in hot water baths and stressing that it's too cool during december is pretty funny when I think about it.

If she turns out OK, I'd be keen for a bottle swap. You never did send me those chillis.


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## Muscovy_333 (7/1/12)

Sorry to go off topic oh so quickly, but i have both blokes i want reading this thread.
I'm putting down a Biere de Garde later this week and was going to use 3725 Wyeast biere de garde (PC).

Manticle, I believe you have used this yeast...Not sure if you have Tony??
Do you think I'm better off using the French or Belgian Saison yeast that Tony has mentioned above?
I do not want too many fruity esters as I'm going for a light rendition subtle and balanced with a hint of sourness.


EDIT: I have just started a thread for this discussion. 

Biere de Garde


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## manticle (7/1/12)

My experience of the WY PC biere de garde is that is surprisingly subtle and low on esters.

Not sure you'll get a lot of sourness with either biere de garde or french saison (both I've used before, belgian is still fermenting/conditioning so not willing to comment) but 3711 will give dry, tart and spicy if the mash temp is low.


----------



## Tony (7/1/12)

Ive not used the biere de garde yeasts as yet but its on the cards.

After trying a few commercial examples, id say its what your after.

I say give it a run and let us know!

cheers


----------



## Muscovy_333 (7/1/12)

manticle said:


> My experience of the WY PC biere de garde is that is surprisingly subtle and low on esters.
> 
> Not sure you'll get a lot of sourness with either biere de garde or french saison (both I've used before, belgian is still fermenting/conditioning so not willing to comment) but 3711 will give dry, tart and spicy if the mash temp is low.




Cool, I'm after subtle and low esters. 
I'm going to slightly sour the mash. 

I'm working on the premise of less is more, but trying to introduce complexity at a threshold level to keep me thinking!

Thanks for your help. I have not had much experience with the range of liquid yeasts so am looking forward to the next evolution.


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## Tony (7/1/12)

mate, the 3724 gives subtle low (sweet fruity and floral) esters if you keep it down at below 28 deg..... but i have had it up around 32 and it was no different really, just a tad more earthy and still really REALLY nice.

Its not a big in your face funky beer. The sourness is subtle and ballancing for the esters.

the 3711 is dry, and more tart and acidic...... almost sour lemon kind of character.

if you have a month to ferment, give the 3724 a try one day...... its a great yeast!


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## Muscovy_333 (7/1/12)

Tony said:


> mate, the 3724 gives subtle low (sweet fruity and floral) esters if you keep it down at below 28 deg..... but i have had it up around 32 and it was no different really, just a tad more earthy and still really REALLY nice.
> 
> Its not a big in your face funky beer. The sourness is subtle and ballancing for the esters.
> 
> ...





Sounds like i need to split my batch...and pitch 2 yeasts!

Thanks for your advise Tony...2 birds with one stone.


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## adryargument (8/1/12)

Just pitched WLP565 into a double batch of Bullsneck Summer Saison.
Shes wrapped up in a blanket and heatpad.
Overnight she has gone from 26->31 deg's and sitting happily.


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## JDW81 (8/1/12)

Does the high fermentation temps of saison yeasts also apply during bottle conditioning?

Going to give one a shot on the weekend. Just making up my mind which one to brew.

Tony, how does your Bullshead Saison stand up to no chill?

Cheers,

JD


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## Nick JD (8/1/12)

JDW81 said:


> Does the high fermentation temps of saison yeasts also apply during bottle conditioning?



I've only kegged them, but since the yeast is practically dormant under 25C (Belgian) you've ideally want it in the 30s for conditioning.


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## JDW81 (8/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> I've only kegged them, but since the yeast is practically dormant under 25C (Belgian) you've ideally want it in the 30s for conditioning.



Looks like they'll be residing in the garage then


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## Tony (8/1/12)

JDW81 said:


> Tony, how does your Bullshead Saison stand up to no chill?



Like any other beer. Its just the same but the hops dont shine like they would in a snap chilled beer.

I have 2 batched on tap that were no chilled and they have less hop character than my origional beer i made that was chilled, but to be honest.... its still great.

It actually makes the yeast character shine a bit more. Great summer beer!

cheers


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## JDW81 (8/1/12)

Tony said:


> Like any other beer. Its just the same but the hops dont shine like they would in a snap chilled beer.
> 
> I have 2 batched on tap that were no chilled and they have less hop character than my origional beer i made that was chilled, but to be honest.... its still great.
> 
> ...



Any merit in a mini boil just before pitching?


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## Nick JD (9/1/12)

JDW81 said:


> Any merit in a mini boil just before pitching?



Even though the "Style" says it's one of the most hopped Belgians, to me any hops in late just mess with the wonderful yeast-derived flavours. 

Belgian saisons are the best beers ever for fermenter tasting. Each time you try it's a different beer. Halfway to FG it's like pear juice, then all the dried fruit flavours start happening, then some mild funkiness (more so in the high alc versions).

When it's about 2 months old most of the esters are faded, and at that stage is still a supurb beer, but you wouldn't recognise it as the same stuff that came out of that fermenter.


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## adryargument (9/1/12)

Mines looking great, definitely smell the pear flavors coming from it.
45L in a 54L Demijohn - it looks like there's a hurricane in it, yeast is pretty much generating its own vortex. Most active ferment i have noticed to date.


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## JDW81 (9/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> Even though the "Style" says it's one of the most hopped Belgians, to me any hops in late just mess with the wonderful yeast-derived flavours.
> 
> Belgian saisons are the best beers ever for fermenter tasting. Each time you try it's a different beer. Halfway to FG it's like pear juice, then all the dried fruit flavours start happening, then some mild funkiness (more so in the high alc versions).
> 
> When it's about 2 months old most of the esters are faded, and at that stage is still a supurb beer, but you wouldn't recognise it as the same stuff that came out of that fermenter.



I feel some experimenting coming on. If only melbourne weather would play ball and give me a few weeks over 25*C. Might have to invest in a heat belt.


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## Nick JD (9/1/12)

I'm onto my 5th batch from the one pack of yeast (have been saving a 300ml PET of trub and repitching usually within a fortnight) and although I really liked the traditional saisons I'm finding that using it as the yeast for fruity APAs makes really great beer. 

Try your favourite APA recipe with 3724 @ 35C for a laugh if it warms up.


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## Lecterfan (10/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> I'm finding that using it as the yeast for fruity APAs makes really great beer.




I find this idea highly arousing.

Although I think I'll stick to the amarillo-to-25-IBU-at-60-mins-in-very-basic-grist-mashed-low for my first experiment.

This thread is awesome.


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## Dazza88 (23/1/12)

Hey, i have had a starter of 3724 going for 36 hours on a stirplate in 25 to 28 ambient, chugging away. I turned off the stir plate this morning in order to pitch tonight - there is a decent layer of yeast 30 minutes after turning the stirrer off. 

As the fermentation is slow, is the starter phase slow as well? Will 48hr be enough for the starter to ferment out?


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## JDW81 (23/1/12)

DazDog said:


> Hey, i have had a starter of 3724 going for 36 hours on a stirplate in 25 to 28 ambient, chugging away. I turned off the stir plate this morning in order to pitch tonight - there is a decent layer of yeast 30 minutes after turning the stirrer off.
> 
> As the fermentation is slow, is the starter phase slow as well? Will 48hr be enough for the starter to ferment out?



I was listening to the Jamil Show on saisons and he reckons you only need a small starter (or none at all). According to the guys on the show having fermentation kick off a bit slower is integral for the correct flavour profile.

When I pitched my starter a week ago it had only been fermenting for 18 hours or so (bit still a good layer of yeast on the bottom of the flask). Had a taste yesterday and it is coming along beautifully, lots of spice and its drying out nicely. Should turn out as a good lawn mower beer 

JD


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## Dazza88 (23/1/12)

JDW81 said:


> I was listening to the Jamil Show on saisons and he reckons you only need a small starter (or none at all). According to the guys on the show having fermentation kick off a bit slower is integral for the correct flavour profile.
> 
> When I pitched my starter a week ago it had only been fermenting for 18 hours or so (bit still a good layer of yeast on the bottom of the flask). Had a taste yesterday and it is coming along beautifully, lots of spice and its drying out nicely. Should turn out as a good lawn mower beer
> 
> JD


Thx mate, it will be pitched tonight. The starter was undersized anyways.


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## JDW81 (23/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> Halfway to FG it's like pear juice



I was just out in the garage and went and had a sniff of the fermenter and it smells like pear juice. Day 1-4 of fermentation it hovered around 25*C and with the hotter weather it is gradually climbing up to near 30. I've got a good feeling about this one  

JD


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## Dazza88 (23/1/12)

DazDog said:


> Thx mate, it will be pitched tonight. The starter was undersized anyways.



Pitched it. Even had multiple sips of the decanted starter wort cause it tasted quite pleasant. Damn Brisbane weather is only going to be mid twenties this week. Went for a low og, 1.035, cause i wanted a 4% beer. I guess it should ferment out reasonably ok. Always have the brew fridge and keezer motors to sit it next to for extra warmth.


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## mikec (29/3/13)

Ima do my first saison this weekend.

Still pretty warm here in Syd, the brew cellar sits around 26 C. But I may stick the heat pad in the side of the ferment fridge and try to get it up around 30 C.




```
Recipe: Saison
Brewer: Mike C
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.71 l
Post Boil Volume: 24.96 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 20.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 18.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 7.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 20.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 84.0 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
3.08 kg               Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC)            Grain         1        70.0 %        
0.66 kg               Munich I (14.5 EBC)                      Grain         2        15.0 %        
0.66 kg               Wheat Malt, BB (3.2 EBC)                 Grain         3        15.0 %        
10.00 g               Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil  Hop           4        4.6 IBUs      
10.00 g               Styrian Goldings [5.20 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop           5        6.0 IBUs      
0.50 Items            Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)        Fining        6        -             
25.00 g               Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil  Hop           7        5.7 IBUs      
15.00 g               Styrian Goldings [5.20 %] - Boil 15.0 mi Hop           8        4.5 IBUs      
2.50 g                Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins)          Other         9        -             
1.0 pkg               Belle Saison (Danstar #)                 Yeast         10       -             


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.40 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Protein Rest      Add 13.48 l of water at 58.0 C          53.0 C        15 min        
Saccharification  Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 63.0 C  63.0 C        75 min        
Mash Out          Heat to 75.0 C over 10 min              75.0 C        10 min        

Sparge: Fly sparge with 19.53 l water at 75.6 C
```


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