# Gluten Free - No Malt Experiment



## Thirsty Boy (12/6/09)

OK - I'm kind of brewing....

I want to make a gluten free beer - but I want to skip the whole malting sorghum/millet exercise. I have some chance of doing this, because I can get my hands on bacterial enzymes that break down starches etc. All food grade and stuff.

So - I am having a go at a 6L batch. Here is a recipe for what I am hoping will be something like a light hybrid beer.. maybe cream ale.

70% Millet Flour
20% Sorghum flour
10% Candi sugar (light / amber)

Here's the plan - 

*Dough in to cold tap water and make a slurry at 2:1 LG
*Heat to 40C and add - Beta Gucanase plus a small amount of Amyloglucosidase and Pullulanase (beta glucan and starch degrading enzymes)
*Stand for a while to let the Betaglucanase liquify things a little
*Heat up slowly and with stirring - eventually getting to a boil
*Boil for a fair while decoction style to develop some nice melanoidins. To take the place of those that aren't there from the malt. The enzymes will have created some sugars on the ramp up - and hopefully the heat+protein+sugars will give me a nice browning reaction
*Dilute to 3:1 with tap water - dropping the temp to around 80C - which is the optimum temp for the AMG and the Pullulanase
*Add more enzymes to replace those denatured by the decoction
*Mash at 80C for 45-60 minutes with stirring for the first 2/3rds
*Add "sparge" water to give appropriate pre-boil volumes - probably at 80-90
*Filter through some 100 micron filter cloth I have on hand and a bloody big funnel
*Boil and hop as if it were normal beer..... adding the candi sugar to the boil (gotta make it first)

I have no idea what will happen.... any comments would be appreciated

TB


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## Scruffy (13/6/09)

Intriguing.... Coeliacs mate?

bugger, language barrier again... are you brewing for a coeliac - what's your remit?


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

Generally interested - and a cousin who is a coeliac but loves beer. Not a big drinker, but her plight has made me interested in the whole process.

Millet man and others have done the whole gluten free thing so well using more standard techniques - that I thought I would explore another avenue that is open to me because of my access to the enzymes.

The decoction part went OK - but I am not sure I developed too much in the way of flavour - mash has been cooled and the sachrification is underway. Its happenning, But I am not sure how fast or how much enzyme to use. As result I am probably going overboard.

Just made candy sugar - It took 5 minutes and is a piece of piss, will never even consider buying it now.

I think next time ... I will make flat hard biscuits out of the flours - then bake them to different levels of browness, grind them up and mash them directly.

The baking process serving to develop the melanoidins and gelatinise the starch. Basically just the flour and water (and maybe a touch of sugar) in flat thin biscuits. I reckon by using a sort of paint patch style colour guide to measure how brown they go, you might well be able to emulate some of the properties of brewing with different coloured kilned malts....

work in progress

TB


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## Scruffy (13/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I will make flat hard biscuits out of the flours


Bugger, my trump card - this is how we brewed for a mate in Blighty... it's beer Jim, but not as we know it...

Yeast i think was Saf T-58 - we used rice and corn syrups to adjust though...


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## Scruffy (13/6/09)

I remember now we tried to germinate Buckwheat - i think it took a couple of days - the idea was to then bake the result (and hence colour) and crush... it went mouldy - several times...

top marks for the enzymes!! hats off!

please let me know...


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

Scruffy said:


> I remember now we tried to germinate Buckwheat - i think it took a couple of days - the idea was to then bake the result (and hence colour) and crush... it went mouldy - several times...
> 
> top marks for the enzymes!! hats off!
> 
> please let me know...



Mash went well - I gave it plenty of time and a goodly chunk of enzymes... I have diluted to its weakest point, which will be its pre-boil gravity... and I got 8.6plato - against an expected pre-boil gravity of 8.9 (if I don't include the candy sugar)

Now I am not sure about my volume yet.. but I think once I have lautered I will be within a litre of my expected pre-boil volume.

Not too bad considering that I was basing my expetations on a 75% efficiency and the potential of the flours as 1.045ppg - I think I have gotten a respectable conversion of starches

Lautering on the other hand is not going so well - 100micron filter cloth... no. Clogged to complete liquid proofness within 30 seconds... I am currently going with a tea towel and its at about 50ml per minute... might take a while.

I am considering a "rough" filter through some BIAB fabric, then another go through the tea towel. We'll see --- Oh for a proper mash filter.

Could be a long night !!

TB


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## Scruffy (13/6/09)

I'm still here!! - you could be right about a diastaticly fraught night... and worrying over zealous enzyme seasoning

May 35 Lintner be with you... though I can see the headlines tomorrow...

Thirsty in breakthrough self pasting wallpaper paste enzyme shocker...

good luck


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

not quite that bad - after a few more or less futile attempts to get myself a wort approaching un-soupy, I gave up. It got a filter through biab cloth - which still required some coaching and squeezing... and then the milky looking wort went into the kettle.

It boiling away even as I type. Eventually I ended up with 64% efficiency (assuming my extract potentials were correct... which they weren't of course) and added another 100g of candy sugar.

This gave me 20% candy sugar and 80% grains by weight - I am willing to live with that. I didn't have enough colour anyway, so the extra sugar gave me a chance to tweak that up a little.

It (apart from being cloudy) looks like wort, it smells like wort and it tastes like wort - with a little difference - but still mostly like wort.

My plan is to no-chill in the kettle overnight - and carefully siphon off the clear stuff tomorrow. It was always my intention to make 6L of wort for a 4L ferment, so I am expecting to leave behind a lot. I kind of knew that trying to do this with all flour was going to be trouble and allowed for it.

All I am looking for is proof of concept with the exogenous enzymes - next brew will be with actual grains (and maybe some biscuit) plus rice hulls etc... see if I cant get me a process going that doesn't take hours and hours extra.3

So far -- not really any more trouble than I thought, and it's kinda working...........

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

Boiled and no-chilling

Its pale yellow - about appropriate for your pilsner/light lager territory. Which is sort of where I was aiming.

12.7 plato - which is a little higher than target - guess I boiled off more than expected - really don't know my volumes in this stovetop setting - I wont bother adjusting and will simply ferment what I have.

Tasted the wort - and it tastes like wort. Not exactly the same as a normal one... but more similar than different.

I will tap off 4L of clear wort and toss some US56 at it tomorrow. Its definitely going to be beer... it might even be not bad beer??

TB


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## Joel (13/6/09)

Interesting read there Thirsty.

Perhaps instead of flour next time you could use crushed millet and sorghum. This will give you the grain husk filter just like a normal mash, but still give the enzymes acess to the starchy inner goodness of the grain - again, just like a normal mash. Or maybe add a whole mess of rice hull to the flour?

I'm very interested to hear of the final result.

Is there a way for the ordinary bloke to get his hands on these enzymes?


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## Fents (13/6/09)

let me be the first to say what the hell were you brewing at 4-5am for! your a madman thirsty.

should call it the rave brew...


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## discoloop (13/6/09)

Much less adventurous, but you can buy gluten-free extract - it's sorghum based I believe. Never tried it but you can get it from: http://www.gfhomebrewing.com.au/


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

Joel said:


> Interesting read there Thirsty.
> 
> Perhaps instead of flour next time you could use crushed millet and sorghum. This will give you the grain husk filter just like a normal mash, but still give the enzymes acess to the starchy inner goodness of the grain - again, just like a normal mash. Or maybe add a whole mess of rice hull to the flour?
> 
> ...



Yeah I know - but the shop had fours and no grains. Doesn't matter, I was looking for proof of concept not ease of brewing. The conversion seems to have happened, and if the beer is reasonable tasting - I will know I can transform the process to one based on grains and make my life a lot easier.

Yes - I think that homebrew shops sometimes sell similar enzymes. The company that makes the ones I am using is Novozymes - I have no idea whether they sell in less that 5L bottles though....

Fents - I am a shift worker. Time of day means nothing to me.

Disco - I know about the sorghum syrup.. but have tasted a beer made out of it, and other predominantly sorghum beers - not a big fan. They have a tart edge to them that I am trying to avoid. At the moment I am looking to play with a predominantly millet grist. Perhaps with some sorghum/rice/corn and an amount of sugar/caramel.

About to try and drain the NC'd wort into a fermenter. See how it goes then.

TB


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## Millet Man (13/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Yeah I know - but the shop had fours and no grains. Doesn't matter, I was looking for proof of concept not ease of brewing. The conversion seems to have happened, and if the beer is reasonable tasting - I will know I can transform the process to one based on grains and make my life a lot easier.
> 
> Yes - I think that homebrew shops sometimes sell similar enzymes. The company that makes the ones I am using is Novozymes - I have no idea whether they sell in less that 5L bottles though....
> 
> ...


Sounds good TB

Early on I successfully made many GF beers from raw grains and enzymes from the HBS.

Flour is a pita as it is hard to get to lauter but if you use millet grain the hull will help and add 200g rice hulls per kg of grain it will lauter really well. You'l find the grain a pet store. 

From HBS you can get an enzyme called improzyme that has protease, glucanase and amylase activity. A step mash 55-70-85C 30min at each step will work good, you could then boil the converted mash to develop flavour if desired. An amyloglucosidase could then be used in the kettle to get attenuation, holding at 60C for an hour or so before starting the boil.

Maize also works well as you don't need to add rice hulls.

Have Fun!

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

Thanks Andrew,

I might grab some improzyme and have a play - the main reason I wanted to muck about with these enzymes is that they are the not heat liable versions... optimum temperature at about 80C - so no need to separate the enzyme liquid from the mash before a decoction... should be able to just mash at 80 and get both gelatinization and conversion.

The enzymes I am using are a Beta Glucanase, a Pullulanase and an Amyloglucosidase ... missing proteases, so thats where I think the improzyme might help... but then again, the unmalted grains wont have a lot of soluble protein anyway, so who knows.

I bought about 3kgs of flour - I have some millet - some sorhum and some maize flour - so I will persist with them till they are gone, but probably in conjunction with some actual grain and I will certainly be adding in a whack of rice hulls.

The current brew basically did not settle down at all - even an overnight NC only gave me 2.0L of clear wort on top - so I put it all in a filter funnel and used patience.... 6 hrs later I got as much as I thought I was going to get. About 3.5L and there is still a bit of murk in it. Oh well. It'll be a miracle if it doesn't end up infected with all the mucking about. Live and learn. I knew I should have gone and got my bag of rice hulls......

What do you think of the idea of baking little biscuits out of the flours (with a touch of sugar) and browning them up to get melanoidins?? Different levels of brownness for different flavours. Then you could use them with raw base grain as a substitute for specialty malts?

So it might be something like

Marzen

80% millet
15% Munich baked millet biscuit
5% Medium Candy sugar 

Or

Brown Ale

60% Millet
20% Amber baked biscuit
10% Choc Baked bicuit
5% Black baked biscuit
5% Dark Candy sugar

stuff like that - some way to get back the maltiness and the control over recipes you have with commercial specialty grain ?????

Thanks for your input

TB


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## MHB (14/6/09)

The amount of trub is surprising; I have been working with the Breiss Sorghum Syrup the hot break was expected but the volume and reluctance of the cold break settle is also a major pain in the arse.

I have taken boiling for bitterness, cooling the wort, bag filtering, centrifuging then re-boiling to sterilise and make hop taste additions, before packaging (basically no-chill), just to get what I regard as a commercial level of clarity. Mind you as I am using syrup diluted 2.8 kg (80% solids) in 8 litres of water I am working with very high density wort up around 28Po which makes getting the trub out even harder.

Have to love the centrifuge, truly amazing how much crud 44,000 gravities will pull out of suspension.

TB you come up with some thought provoking ideas, I will be following this thread with interest; it's good to see some alternatives being explored. I wish to thank Millet Man, during the development of my product he has been very generous with information based on years of hard won experience cheers.



MHB


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## Wisey (14/6/09)

Very Interesting.

Any drinkable results yet?


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## Thirsty Boy (15/6/09)

MHB said:


> The amount of trub is surprising; I have been working with the Breiss Sorghum Syrup the hot break was expected but the volume and reluctance of the cold break settle is also a major pain in the arse.
> 
> I have taken boiling for bitterness, cooling the wort, bag filtering, centrifuging then re-boiling to sterilise and make hop taste additions, before packaging (basically no-chill), just to get what I regard as a commercial level of clarity. Mind you as I am using syrup diluted 2.8 kg (80% solids) in 8 litres of water I am working with very high density wort up around 28Po which makes getting the trub out even harder.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately the nearest thing to a centrifuge I have is a salad spinner....

I think next time there will be rice hulls aplenty and I probably wont go the all flour route - BUT - maybe I will just to work out a reasonable technique in case I want to do it in the future.

Maybe ... mash, bring entire mash/sparge volume to boil breifly - dump it all in a filter bag and hang it up over the kettle - walk away and do something else for a number of hours - come back and boil as per normal.

Most of my issue was flour rather than break... but maybe that was becuase I didn't notice an issue with the break because of all the flour???

Anyway .. the beer s fermenting nicely and there is only about 1cm of break/flour in the fermentor. Less than I thought

More news when its done fermenting. Thanks for the input.

TB


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## Millet Man (15/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Thanks Andrew,
> 
> I might grab some improzyme and have a play - the main reason I wanted to muck about with these enzymes is that they are the not heat liable versions... optimum temperature at about 80C - so no need to separate the enzyme liquid from the mash before a decoction... should be able to just mash at 80 and get both gelatinization and conversion.
> 
> ...


No worries TB,

The improzyme (commercial name is promalt 295 I think) has protease activity at 55C and alpha amylase at optimum 85C so it can gelatinise and convert in one rest. The protein rest will give a reasonable head on the beer and best results were found using buckwheat but no more than 20% of the grist or the flavour becomes too pronounced.

I like the biscuit idea but I've never tried it myself as I've always done my own homemade specialty malts, might be a worthwhile comparison to do - crystal millet malt vs millet biscuits - put it on my list.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## muckanic (15/6/09)

When working with flours, there's really no alternative but to make yourself up a better filter than fabric. A simple method is to drop some pebbles into the neck of a large inverted funnel, then add layers of either diatomaceous earth, polyester fibre, sand, or acquarium gravel (going from coarse to fine). Recirculate until filtrate runs clear and filter material stops dropping through. A slightly fancier approach is to coarse filter first, then follow it up with successively finer filters. You can always just let gravity do its job and rack off the sediment, but you tend to lose a lot.


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## Joel (16/6/09)

Millet Man said:


> Sounds good TB
> 
> Early on I successfully made many GF beers from raw grains and enzymes from the HBS.
> 
> ...




So improzyme is all that is required to achieve a proper, or at least sufficient, mash using unmalted millet? If so I'll be roasting up some raw millet (for colour and flavour) and conducting a triple decoction mash (55-70-85C). 

A few questions though;

1. How much improzyme is required? A few mL per kilo of grain?
2. What is the approximate potential extract?
3. Is hop utilisation similar to normal?
4. What is the best type/grade of millet, and where is the best type of place to get it? (I did research this a few years ago, but many beers later, I've forgotten!)


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## Millet Man (17/6/09)

Joel said:


> So improzyme is all that is required to achieve a proper, or at least sufficient, mash using unmalted millet? If so I'll be roasting up some raw millet (for colour and flavour) and conducting a triple decoction mash (55-70-85C).
> 
> A few questions though;
> 
> ...


1. Yep about 2ml per kg should do.
2. Millet is just under 70% carbohydrates so 1.032 pts/lb/gal or so.
3. Probably, never measured it.
4. White French from a pet food store.

No need to do a decoction as the 85C rest will gelatinise it, step mash is fine. Just remember to add the amyloglucosidase or else the beer won't attenuate.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Joel (17/6/09)

Thanks Andrew.

Can you explain why the amyloglucosidase is required? I'm just trying to get my head around all this. I've only got Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer" as a reference, and I'm not too good at this side of things, but if improzyme has protease, glucanase and amylase activity, isn't that sufficient to achieve a fermentable wort? As I read it, Noonan has amyloglucosidase as a sort of optional extra. Many things I've read on the web say that amyloglucosidase will make ALL sugars in the wort fermentable. Is this the aim? What would happen without it?

Also, where can the average bloke get some?


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## Millet Man (17/6/09)

Joel said:


> Thanks Andrew.
> 
> Can you explain why the amyloglucosidase is required? I'm just trying to get my head around all this. I've only got Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer" as a reference, and I'm not too good at this side of things, but if improzyme has protease, glucanase and amylase activity, isn't that sufficient to achieve a fermentable wort? As I read it, Noonan has amyloglucosidase as a sort of optional extra. Many things I've read on the web say that amyloglucosidase will make ALL sugars in the wort fermentable. Is this the aim? What would happen without it?
> 
> Also, where can the average bloke get some?


The improzyme only has alpha-amylase activity so the wort won't be very fermentable (only 30-40% from memory), you need to use the amyloglucosidase to make create fermentable sugars. If you add it in the kettle at 60C and hold for 1-2 hours before boiling you will get 70-80% fermentability, I used to get a little 7 ml vial of Modiferm from my LHBS and it did the trick (add 1 ml per kg of grain). It will only dry the beer right out if you add it to the fermenter.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Joel (17/6/09)

OK. That makes sense. Could it be added to the mash instead of the kettle? Say, mash at 85C and let the improzyme do its stuff for a while, then cool the mash to 60C and add the modiferm and hold for an hour. Would a starch conversion test be helpful here? Then sparge and boil as normal.


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## Joel (17/6/09)

So I've found an answer already. One of your old posts Andrew! From around 2007.



> I tried Bi-Aglut a few years ago and it wasn't great, haven't seen it around since then.
> 
> To make a clone of this it's 50/50 raw buckwheat and maize syrup (Brewiser liquid brewing sugar is maize syrup). You'll also need some enzymes from your local HBS - Improzyme and Modiferm. Rough recipe as follows:
> 
> ...


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## Thirsty Boy (17/6/09)

a starch test will might help you determine when the improzyme has done its job - it wont help with working out when the amyloglucosidase has done its job though.

The alpha amylase will convert the starches to sugars -- from there you are looking at a further conversion of long chained sugars to shorter chained sugars and the starch test doesn't tell you anything about that.

Sure - if you get a positive on the starch conversion you know for sure you _aren't_ done yet ... but it doesn't tell you when you are done.

The amyloglucosidase can certainly be added to the mash .. but you will get better control by adding it to the boil kettle. You mash and lauter to give you your thick unfermentable wort ... then you add to the kettle and you can measure very precisely how long you let it convert before raising the temp. Over a few batches you will get a very good idea of just how long you need to leave it there to get you desired attenuation. Inteh mash -- there is alot more going on and times and temps are open to a lot more influencing factors.

Thanks for all the info Andrew -- I will be putting it to good use.

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (25/6/09)

Two updates (excuse typos - 330ml Russian Imperial stouts, number 4 going down as I type...) 

No-malt exp #1 is ready to bottle - I have taken a final gravity and it 1.011 from 1.047 (I seem to recall) so has given me by pure chance, what I think is a perfect attenuation. Tastes not too bad... it has a mild tart edge and is is a little "winey" but it also tastes a hell of a lot like beer too. It is in my book missing that "malty" character. But I reckon its not too bad for a light lager style. Just waiting for my final "evening out" rouse to settle down and I will bottle this tonight. Should have a taste report of a force carbed sample by this time tomorrow morning.

Millet biscuit making - I just whipped up a batch of millet cookies and baked m to various stages of colour. They are undergoing final low temp drying out atm but here's areport on the smells of the various colour. I have assigned malt equivalent names based on an estimate of the colour.
*
Ale / Vienna* - just got a little colour on them and pulled em out. Smells like a loaf of fresh cooked white bread torn apart.
*
Munich* - biscuit. That dry dark bread crusty aroma. With a little bit of Nanna's scones thrown in.
*
Amber* - This is the money shot. This one smells malty. Like sticking your nose in a bag of MO

*Choc* - Not really anything choc about it except the colour (not quite burned black) has some of the maltiness of the amber, and a lot of really dark bread crust. With hints of the acrid burned and some of that slightly deeper "browness"

After its all done I will run congress mashes (steeps really) on each sample and get real EBC figures - plus a taste report on the resulting worts

I recon I can even make a "crystal" biscuit. All I need to do is mix some of the pullulanase enzyme with water and use that water to make the little biscuits. Cook them at 80C under a foil cover for a while to "stew" them crystal malt style - then ramp the temps up to roast them. Should give me little disks of semi sugar/caramel darkened to whatever color I want...

Photos of cookies etc this evening after drying is all done. congress mashes and official EBC figures will probably have to wait till next week.

I have a modicum of confidence about the concept - the more Russian Imperial Stout I drink, the better I think its going to work...

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (26/6/09)

Well - a first cut sample is in the glass. It looks like I made beer !!

Pale straw - still a little cloudy because I was impatient about bottling for a taste - medium loose-ish foam that fades down to a light cap but seems to stick around from there - pleasant cascade aroma with a low grainy background and weirdly enough, a little anise or liquorice - Flavour is light and faintly malt sweet, a little hop flavour, low bitterness just in balance - there is good "beeriness" but also a little bit of a tart edge, and a drying quality to the beer, similar to the tart dryness you get in a Wit. Medium palate weight and finishes dry and reasonably clean. A slight lingering tartness around the edges of the tounge.

If you handed me this beer... I wouldn't rave about it, but I probably wouldn't pour it out either. Its an acceptable Cream ale. With a bit more conditioning on it I think it might turn out to be a medium/good one. I am pleasantly surprised.

Here it is - sorry about the crappy webcam picture. The wife is away with the good camera.




The biscuits worked out spectacularly well - here is a scan (to avoid the crappy webcam) of a sample in order of colour.




Left is just the biscuit dried in an 80-90 oven - the rest were semi dried and then toasted for colour

I'll make another brew once I have done some testing on the bicuits to determine their actual colour and some of their mashed taste characteristics.

TB


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## katzke (26/6/09)

So why does everyone try and duplicate light tasteless brews? A light beer made with out malt will always taste off. Heck some light beers made with malt taste off.

Hope you can use the dark biscuits to make something with some flavor even if it is not beer. Maybe add some wild rice or something else to add flavor.

Just trying to think out of the box and maybe trying for a coffee stout or Irish Red type of brew would be better then a clone of mega beer. They can not drink beer anyway and while I have not tried any of the gluten free beers I hear then are not very close to beer in reality just a try at a substitute. I would think that even an American IPA would be better. Sure who wants to do a sample brew with 20 dollars worth of hops but I think you get the idea.


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## Millet Man (26/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Pale straw - still a little cloudy because I was impatient about bottling for a taste - medium loose-ish foam that fades down to a light cap but seems to stick around from there - pleasant cascade aroma with a low grainy background and weirdly enough, a little anise or liquorice - Flavour is light and faintly malt sweet, a little hop flavour, low bitterness just in balance - there is good "beeriness" but also a little bit of a tart edge, and a drying quality to the beer, similar to the tart dryness you get in a Wit. Medium palate weight and finishes dry and reasonably clean. A slight lingering tartness around the edges of the tounge.


Nice job TB,

Came out pretty good considering how murky they wort was!

I get that anise / liquorice taste from millet too, but mostly in crystallised malt. The tartness is quite common too, especially if the final pH gets down around 4.0-4.2. What did it yours come out at?

Biscuits are making me hungry...

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Millet Man (26/6/09)

katzke said:


> So why does everyone try and duplicate light tasteless brews? A light beer made with out malt will always taste off. Heck some light beers made with malt taste off.


TB was not trying to duplicate a beer but do an experiment to test if it would work and see what the flavour was like - pale low hopped brew is the best way to see how the flavour works as it is a blank canvas. 


> Just trying to think out of the box and maybe trying for a coffee stout or Irish Red type of brew would be better then a clone of mega beer. They can not drink beer anyway and while I have not tried any of the gluten free beers I hear then are not very close to beer in reality just a try at a substitute. I would think that even an American IPA would be better. Sure who wants to do a sample brew with 20 dollars worth of hops but I think you get the idea.


Go and try a couple of GF beers (Redbridge by Bud and Bards Tale would be a couple of the better ones in the US) and let us know your verdict, a different taste but no worse than "mega beer" would be my guess.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## katzke (27/6/09)

Millet Man said:


> TB was not trying to duplicate a beer but do an experiment to test if it would work and see what the flavour was like - pale low hopped brew is the best way to see how the flavour works as it is a blank canvas.
> 
> Cheers, Andrew.



I got that and Dan is a good one to work out any recipe, as he likes to take notes and experiment.

I was just saying that trying to make a light colored and tasting malt beverage with out malt might not be the best thing to do. I have not tried any of the gluten free brews and would not buy any. Just had the conversation with a person this week about it and they gave up on trying them. Part because they just were not anything like beer and part because the ones that were close were bloody expensive. Bottom line was the trade offs were not worth it for that person. But if a person had the craving and would kill their mother-in-law for a beer it is good to know there are some out there that may be a close substitute.

As to experimenting with light colored and tasting brews to see what the canvas looks like. Darker beers are much more forgiving so I would start there. Just like is recommended when starting to brew, the harder styles are not suggested. True you may learn more from the light beer in this case but I think most people agree gluten free beer just is not quite beer. The few posts about brewing gluten free have always been about light colored brews as I recall. Just trying to get people to think different and Dan is on that path with the dark biscuits.


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## Thirsty Boy (27/6/09)

katzke said:


> I got that and Dan is a good one to work out any recipe, as he likes to take notes and experiment.
> 
> I was just saying that trying to make a light colored and tasting malt beverage with out malt might not be the best thing to do. I have not tried any of the gluten free brews and would not buy any. Just had the conversation with a person this week about it and they gave up on trying them. Part because they just were not anything like beer and part because the ones that were close were bloody expensive. Bottom line was the trade offs were not worth it for that person. But if a person had the craving and would kill their mother-in-law for a beer it is good to know there are some out there that may be a close substitute.
> 
> As to experimenting with light colored and tasting brews to see what the canvas looks like. Darker beers are much more forgiving so I would start there. Just like is recommended when starting to brew, the harder styles are not suggested. True you may learn more from the light beer in this case but I think most people agree gluten free beer just is not quite beer. The few posts about brewing gluten free have always been about light colored brews as I recall. Just trying to get people to think different and Dan is on that path with the dark biscuits.



But - the vast majority of people who drink beer... drink lightly flavoured pale lager. All the poor Gluten intolerant people want, is a shot at what the rest of the population has. I cant think of anything the poor buggers need less than a beer Nazi (sorry... but you _are_ sounding a little bit sieg heil about it) telling them that if they refuse to drink "proper" beer they shouldn't be allowed anything...

Thats what I am shooting for anyway - my gluten intolerant cousin drinks pale beers - and so do I. I fail to see what is wrong with a good pilsner/helles/dortmunder/CAP/kolsch/blonde/cream - just because its not an IPA doesn't mean its meant to be Bud Light.

I dont agree with you that trying for darker beers is a better idea - its perhaps an easier path.. but I will learn less. And the target audience doesn't want a porter anyway. I agree with millet man. If I can make a pale lager taste like a pale lager, I can brew anything. IPAs are easy - but if you cant brew me a light lager that I want to drink - you just cant brew.

I'm not trying to demonstrate that good GF beer can be made - Obrien's brewing does that perfectly well - I am looking for a fast and dirty way to whip up the odd batch - for a brewer who doesn't want or need to invest in the infrastructure to malt his own GF grain. And to learn a thing or two about how beer works while I am at it. I reckon that to make "generally" good GF beer - you need to go the whole hog and travel the path that Adrew has cut through the Jungle for us. BUT - If I am just trying to tweak up one beer for one person. I am clever enough to get a good one - and stubborn enough to not stop trying till I do.

And no matter what happens... I will learn a lot about brewing. So its a no lose situation really.

I will send you a bottle when I have something I am truly happy with - and you can tell me its rubbish and that you were right all along  

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (27/6/09)

Millet Man said:


> Nice job TB,
> 
> Came out pretty good considering how murky they wort was!
> 
> ...



I m a bad experimental brewer and didn't measure it yet ... but seeing as most of it isn't bottled, I still have time.

Do you think you could adjust the pH upwards with a base addition?? to try and neutralise the tartness?? I think that the slight acidity is one of the things that makes GF beers less acceptable to the drinker. Maybe a tiny calcium hydroxide addition to the finished beer??

The biscuits look tasty - but aren't very nice. I had to try one of each... not something nanna would be proud of  

Might try to make the "crystal" biscuit tomorrow .. that'll taste good.. if it works it will be mostly sugar.


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## katzke (27/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> But - the vast majority of people who drink beer... drink lightly flavoured pale lager. All the poor Gluten intolerant people want, is a shot at what the rest of the population has. I cant think of anything the poor buggers need less than a beer Nazi (sorry... but you _are_ sounding a little bit sieg heil about it) telling them that if they refuse to drink "proper" beer they shouldn't be allowed anything...
> 
> TB



Not my intent. I know nothing about Gluten free beer and hope I never have to drink one for the same reason others do. All I have heard is the brews out there are close but not quite beer. Some have even been described as down right bad.

Just thought I would encourage people to try and make something in a different style that would be enjoyable and could be consumed in adult company.

I understand that most people drink light or pale beers. I guess there must be 3 types of people that would be drinking Gluten free beers. Those that have never had a beer because they have always been off gluten containing products, those that have a taste for beer but can no longer drink it, and those that have a taste for all kinds of beer but can no longer drink it. 2 of the groups would benefit from experimenting with other styles of brews then the traditional pale light brew. So I guess we are both wrong. I am wrong because I tried to introduce old beer drinkers to new styles and you are wrong in thinking they only would like to drink what they used to. To make it worse we are both wrong because gluten free beer will never taste like the beer they used to drink, light or dark.

I am going to hide now and let you keep experimenting.


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## Millet Man (27/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Do you think you could adjust the pH upwards with a base addition?? to try and neutralise the tartness?? I think that the slight acidity is one of the things that makes GF beers less acceptable to the drinker. Maybe a tiny calcium hydroxide addition to the finished beer??


Would be worth a try to see if it takes the acidic edge off it. Easy test to do.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Millet Man (27/6/09)

katzke said:


> As to experimenting with light colored and tasting brews to see what the canvas looks like. Darker beers are much more forgiving so I would start there. Just like is recommended when starting to brew, the harder styles are not suggested. True you may learn more from the light beer in this case but I think most people agree gluten free beer just is not quite beer. The few posts about brewing gluten free have always been about light colored brews as I recall. Just trying to get people to think different and Dan is on that path with the dark biscuits.


I can see your point but for the homebrewer there are only light coloured malts, flours and grain extracts available for gluten free beers so that is where they generally start. To make darker beers you need to malt or roast your own grains or make biscuits like TB is trying, it's just an extra level of complexity on an already difficult process and not a good place for a new brewer to start.

As TB mentioned, most people looking for gluten free beer want a pale one - 95% of our sales are either lager or pale ale. Our best tasting, most "normal" beer is our dark ale but we sell very little of it. We have asked our customers what beer they would like next and the most popular response is a low alcohol lager :wacko: and a few say stout. No requests for IPA or dubbels yet but I do make them for my own consumption, if anyone wants some pointers then I'm more than happy to help.

I'll have to take issue with your statement that "most people agree gluten free beer is not quite beer", if I took some lambic, roggenbier and raspberry wheat out for the public to taste then most would also say they're not quite beer. But we the beer lovers know they are just beer of a different style and taste, just like gluten free beer is.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## muckanic (29/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Do you think you could adjust the pH upwards with a base addition?? to try and neutralise the tartness?? I think that the slight acidity is one of the things that makes GF beers less acceptable to the drinker. Maybe a tiny calcium hydroxide addition to the finished beer??



I recently tried to neutralise some spontaneous lactic acidity with CaCO3, and found that I had to dump in way more than I expected for less effect than I expected. So it either wasn't a strong enough base - unlike presumably Ca(OH)2 - or the resulting lactate ions are not flavour-neutral. I was just going by taste, no pH measures. Actually, titratable acidity would possibly be the better measure anyway.

Maybe this is where corn comes into its own? ie, use the sweetness to balance the tartness. There is possibly also a case for malting the grains for smoothness, as weizens tend to be less tart than wits. It may be enough that the grains are simply dried and not necessarily kilned, as it seems to me that home kilning is actually the biggest hassle in the whole process. OTOH, de-rooting doesn't look like a lot of fun with some grains either :-(.

Whilst it may not be gluten-free, has anyone listening done the analogue of a wit using 50% of either unmalted millet or buckwheat? These two grains seem to be the ones that most often get the thumbs-up for flavour.


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## Thirsty Boy (29/6/09)

yeah - thats why I was thinking Lime or even food grade caustic. Use a strong base and then hopefully you need so little of it there is no contribution to the flavour apart from raising the pH.

I think corn or rice is the obvious solution - less for balance than for dilution. This stuff is tart.. but not overwhelmingly so. So simply cutting back on teh percentage of tart ingredient should do the trick. My grist was mostly millet and a little sorghum - I will try 100% millet first because I know that sorghum beers run to sourness - so eliminate that as a cause, then look at corn/rice to give mostly but not completely neutral extract - and add melanoidins from the Biscuits or from toasted grains. I think the biscuits have a better chance of emulating real malt flavours - more sugar in malt than in raw grain.. and you can emulate that in a biscuit as well as moisture levels.

At a guess - I think it will end up somewhere in the vicinity of 50-60% raw base grain (probably millet) and a combination of rice/corn, the biscuits and some sugar/caramel to make up the balance. Maybe a little buckwheat to assist with head retention if the percentage of rice/corn/sugar needs to creep up.

At the moment - I have confidence. The beer was actually pretty good, just a little tart. Cut that down a fraction and I wouldn't even try to mess about too much for a light coloured beer - its only if and when you want to brew something "malty" that it starts to get harder when you aren't actually using any malt.

Current batch is bottle conditioning now - so I will see what becomes of it with a couple of weeks smoothing out and settling down. In the meantime I will do another batch. 100% millet (persisting with the flour till its gone) and some biscuits to see I cant inject a little maltiness into the equation.


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## BBBF (30/6/09)

It's a shame we can't get the same enzymes here in the states. I found this thread because I was thinking about doing the same thing with flour or unmalted grain. 

Gluten free beer tastes like beer. It just might not live up to your preconceived notion of what a beer should taste like. And why should it? A rye beer or a wheat beer isn't expected to taste like a barley beer, but you still recognize it as beer. I have no problems with gluten, but I have tried several gluten free beers. Red Bridge and Bard's are trying to be "real" beer and I think they fail. I'm not saying they aren't enjoyable. I just don't think Red Bridge tastes like Budweiser or whatever AB style they were going for. However, if I put it in it's own category as a sorghum beer, it tastes fine. New Grist is the best that I have tasted and tastes the most like beer. I would never turn one down. The three from Green's that I've tried fall somewhere in between. Sprecher's beers were the most interesting because they were african beers that happened to be gluten free. If I ever make it to Australia or if Millet Man's beer ever makes it to Chicago, I'd love to try it.

I'm currently fermenting my first gf beer from quinoa and amaranth. I malted according to Millet Man's instructions and tried brewing to his instructions, but ran into some sparging problems.. I also went for a pale ale, despite a preference for dark beers, so that I can get an idea what the grains will offer. If it tastes similar to a pale ale, I'll be thrilled. If it tastes different, I'll still be thrilled as long as it tastes good. I'm sure the people in my brew club would be interested in trying a quinoa/amaranth beer.


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## mpcondo (6/7/09)

this is a great gluten free thread, here in the states it impossible to find anything but a sorghum and rice lager.

I love the idea of baking the biscuits.

what kind of differences in flavors and extraction between malted and unmalted millet and buckwheat. 

I was interested in making a pilsener with malted millet and malted buckweat and a little millet crystal 75L. the pilsener seemed like a good choice because of the assertive hopiness. any thoughts?

I have to say that the idea of a Marzen or Vienna is intriguing and I was curious on if anyone has actually tried this.


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## Thirsty Boy (6/7/09)

Glad you like the thread

I'm sorry I cant help with the differences between the malted and unmalted grains ... or anything else really. This is my first excursion into the gluten free realm, and I am specifically looking to do it with 100% unmalted material.

Search for posts by Millet Man - he is the undisputed guru on the whole gluten free topic. What with being a professional gluten free brewer and all.

I wouldn't bother with all the rigmarole _If_ you could just nip out and buy a bag of malted millet, but you cant. And I want a quick and dirty way to make a half decent beer without having to tool up for home malting.

I shall refrain from pretending to be able to give advice -- search out millet man's posts or perhaps shoot him a PM.

Cheers

TB


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## mpcondo (9/7/09)

Thirsty,

I'm really interested in this no malt expiriment that your doing. If you can, I would love to hear some notes on the final outcome once your millet beer is ready to drink.


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## mpcondo (9/7/09)

I am preparing to do a small batch of millet beer myself and I'm not wanting to go throught the process of malting until ive done a little experimenting to get the feel for these grains. the problem is that it seems as though the enzymes that are mentioned on this site are not available in the united states. however I can get amylase and Alpha-Galactosidase Enzymes.

will these work ok, and if so will it be the same mashing proceedure that has been spelled out for use with the improzyme?


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## Thirsty Boy (9/7/09)

I dont know about the alpha-galactosidase... sounds like it might try to invade your solar system if you get it wrong.

Amylases though -- yeah. They will do the trick. You just need to remember that yo have to gelatinise the GF grains first (at 80C or more) and then cool them down for the enzymes -- how much to cool them down will depend on which enzymes they specifically are. Malt derived amylases have different optimum and denaturing temperatures than do bacterially derived amylases.

I reckon if you go to a big specialist homebrew store though -- you could probably get the improzyme that Millet Man was talking about - or an equivalent. You migh thave to ask them to order it in for you. Or you could mail order some from the sponsors of this site ... they'll all have it.

Nearly ready to have a taste of teh millet flour beer -- I'll let you know how it goes.

TB


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## muckanic (10/7/09)

mpcondo said:


> the problem is that it seems as though the enzymes that are mentioned on this site are not available in the united states. however I can get amylase and Alpha-Galactosidase Enzymes.



The distilling forums are actually full of Aussies chasing US mail-order enzymes. Try a search at http://www.homedistiller.org. Mile-hi seem to be a popular supplier. The main advantage of the Improzyme is that, as well as converting starch into sugar, it also breaks down glucans and proteins. This is not absolutely necessary, it just increases yield a bit and makes sparging easier. You can always batch sparge if necessary.

Your main requirement is for alpha amylase. A beta/gluco equivalent is available in the shape of Beano (digestion aid) in almost all US pharmacies. No idea what the temperature and pH specs are. That is a product we don't seem to have here.


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## katzke (11/7/09)

muckanic said:


> The distilling forums are actually full of Aussies chasing US mail-order enzymes. Try a search at http://www.homedistiller.org. Mile-hi seem to be a popular supplier. The main advantage of the Improzyme is that, as well as converting starch into sugar, it also breaks down glucans and proteins. This is not absolutely necessary, it just increases yield a bit and makes sparging easier. You can always batch sparge if necessary.
> 
> Your main requirement is for alpha amylase. A beta/gluco equivalent is available in the shape of Beano (digestion aid) in almost all US pharmacies. No idea what the temperature and pH specs are. That is a product we don't seem to have here.



Was doing some searching yesterday and in one post it was said that Beano could be contaminated with wheat. I have no idea but if you are brewing gluten free you should check before trying it. Alpha amylase is easy to get in the USA from brew shops.


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## muckanic (14/7/09)

katzke said:


> Was doing some searching yesterday and in one post it was said that Beano could be contaminated with wheat. I have no idea but if you are brewing gluten free you should check before trying it. Alpha amylase is easy to get in the USA from brew shops.



The one thing we can get readily here (and I presume in the US) is dry beer enzyme for the low-carbohydrate set. The problem is, you probably don't want completely dry beer, so there is the issue of how long to let it rip. Actually, it is usually added to the fermenter to work slowly rather than to the mash tun. You could dry the brew out completely then sweeten it back up with some maltodextrin/corn syrup, but that requires working out some way of denaturing the enzyme. In theory, enzymes are catalysts and so aren't consumed by the reactions they promote; in practice, folks do in fact seem to use selective amounts of dry beer enzyme to control the terminal gravity.


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## Joel (14/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Two updates (excuse typos - 330ml Russian Imperial stouts, number 4 going down as I type...)
> 
> No-malt exp #1 is ready to bottle - I have taken a final gravity and it 1.011 from 1.047 (I seem to recall) so has given me by pure chance, what I think is a perfect attenuation. Tastes not too bad... it has a mild tart edge and is is a little "winey" but it also tastes a hell of a lot like beer too. It is in my book missing that "malty" character. But I reckon its not too bad for a light lager style. Just waiting for my final "evening out" rouse to settle down and I will bottle this tonight. Should have a taste report of a force carbed sample by this time tomorrow morning.
> 
> ...



G'day TB,

Could you provise some more detail on your roasting process please? I'm interested in the whole thing; the method for making the biscuits (have you tried the enzyme in the water yet?), the drying stage, how long roasted for and at what temperature.

From your description the Amber sounds pretty darn good. Once my vienna has finished hogging the bar fridge lagering, I would love to give a millet english ale a try.


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## mpcondo (7/10/09)

I'm loving your gluten free threads. and i would love to hear how the final product on this experiment turned out.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/10/09)

This very first one turned out surprisingly well - The drawn out process I went through at the end of the boil means I think I have picked up a wild yeast infection which is slowly adding a dirty socks flavour to the bottled beer - BUT - that is to do with the fact that I used flour rather than grain.

Underneath the dirty socks is a moderately pleasant beer. Lackng in malt character and a little tart. But not too bad.

I hold quite high hopes for the beer I made with the rice wine enzymes... it is down to 1.008 and tastes quite normal. The addition of the colour biscuits mentioned above seems to have added a level of maltiness missing in the other GF beers I have tried, so they might be the secret ingredient. I need to work on them a bit.

BUT - this version, with the industrial enzymes is most likely what I will do when I move out of pure mucking about with enzymes territory and actually try to start making a proper batch of beer. I have one more weird conversion technique to try (sweet potatoes) and then I will try to start "normalizing" the techniques - seeing if I can get away with more standard mash routines rather than the 6 hours to 3 day marathons involved with banana or rice wine enzymes.

I strongly suspect that I will be able to churn out decent beers in reasonable brew day formats - and not have to malt a single grain. In fact I know I will because Millet Man has been there and done that - so really this is just an excuse for me to muck about and type excessively long posts 

Joel - sorry I haven't replied to your question. The biscuit making was a fairly unscientific affair. 250-300 or so grams of millet flour, a tablespoon of sugar and mixed with water to form a dough. Cut into poker chip sized cookies about 4-5mm thick. They were cooked/dried at around 150C for about an hour then some removed. My oven isn't hot enough to brown things properly, so I put them under the griller and went from there... I just grilled till I noticed "some" colour and removed a portion, then kept on removing some when I noticed a significant increase - trying to get a sort of even slop from just slightly coloured up to dark brown. This was all on one side and it was only on the two darkest increments where the colour started to come through to the back. You could get more bang for your buck so to say, by toasting both sides. I haven't tried the sugar enzymes and stewing thing... I probably wont because I would just use actual caramelized sugar to get a similar effect. But maybe oneday??

TB


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