# Weyermann Pilsner - Level Of Modification



## RussTaylor (12/2/08)

What's your opinion on Weyermann's two Pilsner malts? 

I'm hearing conflicting stories about having to do a step mash. Someone is saying the standard Pilsner needs a step mash otherwise it will be cloudy as hell and others say that the Bohemian pilsner is less modified and therefore needs a step mash.

Weyermann seem to have removed the malt analysis from their website but they do say that the standard pilsner is highly modified, which would seem to indicate the above step mash requirement for the standard is not correct.

My experience with Bohemian so far doing an infusion mash is a little bit of hit and miss in the clarity department. Haven't tried the standard yet but considering buying a bag of it.

I've done heaps on searching on here, Google and other forums and can't find a definitive answer. Is there much of a difference in modification between these two malts or are they just different varieties? Anyone got a preference of the two?

Russ


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## SJW (12/2/08)

Used em both and love em. No need to protein rest em at all.

Steve


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## bierbaron (12/2/08)

yeah i used the pilsner malt without a protein rest and it came out clear as......very happy with results


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## geoffi (12/2/08)

I've used the Pils with and without protein rest. Comes out nice and clear either way. I'd say it's not needed.

I should have said the German Pils. Never used the Bohemian.


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## sluggerdog (12/2/08)

The standard Pilsner is great, no step/rest needed.

Bo Pils is a different story, I think it benefits from a protein rest. I one with and one without, the one with a protein rest was better.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/2/08)

RussTaylor said:


> What's your opinion on Weyermann's two Pilsner malts?
> 
> I'm hearing conflicting stories about having to do a step mash. Someone is saying the standard Pilsner needs a step mash otherwise it will be cloudy as hell and others say that the Bohemian pilsner is less modified and therefore needs a step mash.
> 
> ...


Hi Russ Going on malt analysis of both malts: (Hartong is a rating of modification) Found mainly on German malt specs.
Bohemian is Hartong 37.5%
Pilsner is Hartong 38.8 %
So the Bohemian is less modified.
I always do a protien rest but thats just me.Others seem to have had good results with out.
I look forward to others expierences.
GB


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## dig (12/2/08)

They also have a Premium Pils that has a higher degree of modification.


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## Hargie (12/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I always do a protien rest but thats just me.
> GB





+1


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## bindi (12/2/08)

Hargie said:


> +1



+2


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## wessmith (12/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Hi Russ Going on malt analysis of both malts: (Hartong is a rating of modification) Found mainly on German malt specs.
> Bohemian is Hartong 37.5%
> Pilsner is Hartong 38.8 %
> So the Bohemian is less modified.
> ...



Hi GB, just had a look at the 2007 crop specs on the Weyermann website (dont have the C of A's). Bo-Pils has a Hartong range of 38 - 44 and Protein at 9.5 - 11%. Standard Pils is Hartong 34 - 35 and Protein at 9.5 - 12%. Premium Pils is Hartong 34 - 39 and Protein 9.5 - 11.5. Explanation: it has not been a very good growing season and the specs reflect that. 12% Protein is high - for a Weyermann Pilsner. The higher the Protein, the more modification is required - put very simply. On the basis of the specs I would say the Bo-Pils is the best of the bunch.

One thing you can be certain of though, is that Weyermann will have ensured that all 3 malts can be brewed in a single infusion system - bad season or not. The other point to make is that brewing lagers and especially pilsners is tricky. They are the most difficult to get "right" due to the very subtle nature of the style. Mash pH and mineral profile are crucial as is the hopping regime.

You do a protein rest at your own risk so to speak. If the mash parameters are not correct you will certainly lose some of the body and head promoting proteins - especially where the malt is already well modified to overcome the higher barley protein levels.

Oh, and it is high time we put the myth that German malts are undermodified out to pasture. It aint true! But AHB members take heart - there was a recent thread on a US pro forum where the same incorrect assumption was raised - and corrected...

Wes


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## dig (12/2/08)

wessmith said:


> Oh, and it is high time we put the myth that German malts are undermodified out to pasture. It aint true!


Hi Wes. Milled up this afternoon for a double wit tomorrow, using Weyermann wheat malt for the first time. Tasted under-modified to me, which is great for that style. Very raw wheaty tasting and sounded mean going through the mill.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/2/08)

wessmith said:


> Hi GB, just had a look at the 2007 crop specs on the Weyermann website (dont have the C of A's). Bo-Pils has a Hartong range of 38 - 44 and Protein at 9.5 - 11%. Standard Pils is Hartong 34 - 35 and Protein at 9.5 - 12%. Premium Pils is Hartong 34 - 39 and Protein 9.5 - 11.5. Explanation: it has not been a very good growing season and the specs reflect that. 12% Protein is high - for a Weyermann Pilsner. The higher the Protein, the more modification is required - put very simply. On the basis of the specs I would say the Bo-Pils is the best of the bunch.
> 
> One thing you can be certain of though, is that Weyermann will have ensured that all 3 malts can be brewed in a single infusion system - bad season or not. The other point to make is that brewing lagers and especially pilsners is tricky. They are the most difficult to get "right" due to the very subtle nature of the style. Mash pH and mineral profile are crucial as is the hopping regime.
> 
> ...


Some very valid points there.I do a protein rest at the top end of the temp range for 15-20 minutes and havent had a problem so far and that is with the latest malt batches.Good head etc and I dont aim for big body Pilsners anyway.Mainly using Boh Pils at the momment as I have a good supply.Good to see the undermodfied malt thing aired out.This may have been true many years ago when decocction was the only way to brew but a lot of text still have this myth included.
GB


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## wessmith (12/2/08)

dig said:


> Hi Wes. Milled up this afternoon for a double wit tomorrow, using Weyermann wheat malt for the first time. Tasted under-modified to me, which is great for that style. Very raw wheaty tasting and sounded mean going through the mill.



Hi Dean, The Euro wheat strains used for wheat malt are TOTALLY different to what we get here locally. Most Aussie wheat is high protein (try 12 to 14%) and requires a LOT of modification. Mostly they have to malt the guts out of the wheat which also destroys much of the flavour. You should find the Weyermann converts well and gives a nice tart background flavour. Weyermann recommend a mash pH of 5.6 to 5.8 (as does Kunze) to develop those necessary 4VG (clove and banana) precursors but you probably dont want too much of that in the wit! Lets know how you go.

Wes


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## dig (12/2/08)

5.6-5.8, yeah, I can do that. Wheat malt always buffers high and I'm using less than 1% acid malt. The best wits in my opinion have a very faint thread only of 4vg. Keeping the esters under control is more important.


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## goatherder (12/2/08)

dig, when you say double wit are you talking big wit or two batches?


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## Chris (12/2/08)

wessmith said:


> You do a protein rest at your own risk so to speak. If the mash parameters are not correct you will certainly lose some of the body and head promoting proteins - especially where the malt is already well modified to overcome the higher barley protein levels.
> 
> 
> Wes



I agree, the times I have done a protein rest with weyermann munnich or pils it has been hit and miss in the body and head retention department (ie no head).

Also if you look at the endosperm length it is about the same length as the grain, which is a simple measure of being well modified (to my knowledge).


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## geoffi (12/2/08)

I opened my 25kg sack of Weyermann pale wheat the other day. I was taken aback by the look of the grains. Smaller, darker and really 'shriveled' compared to the Aussie wheat malt.

Then I tasted it...

Wow. I could just eat this stuff. Really rich, malty taste. Amazing. I can't wait to brew with it.

These people really know what they are doing.




wessmith said:


> Hi Dean, The Euro wheat strains used for wheat malt are TOTALLY different to what we get here locally. Most Aussie wheat is high protein (try 12 to 14%) and requires a LOT of modification. Mostly they have to malt the guts out of the wheat which also destroys much of the flavour. You should find the Weyermann converts well and gives a nice tart background flavour. Weyermann recommend a mash pH of 5.6 to 5.8 (as does Kunze) to develop those necessary 4VG (clove and banana) precursors but you probably dont want too much of that in the wit! Lets know how you go.
> 
> Wes


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## wessmith (12/2/08)

Chris said:


> I agree, the times I have done a protein rest with weyermann munnich or pils it has been hit and miss in the body and head retention department (ie no head).
> 
> Also if you look at the endosperm length it is about the same length as the grain, which is a simple measure of being well modified (to my knowledge).



Chris, that is very observant and in the end the only true visual evaluation of the malt. Malting and brewing is a contiguous process - what the maltster starts the brewer finishes. I have always said that malting technology is much more complex than brewing technology - up to the mash tun where the whole malting/brewing thing comes together. After that we get into beverage engineering, but that is another story....

Wes


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## dig (12/2/08)

goatherder said:


> dig, when you say double wit are you talking big wit or two batches?


Yeah, sorry, back-to-back brews. A double batch. Most of my fermenters are doubles. A long brew day, especially when using wheat.

Though I do like your thinking... a double wit, or perhaps an imperial wit...


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## hockadays (12/2/08)

If you want a clear brew and are using the Boh pils definatley do a protein rest. The other two are fine single infusion.

Hockers


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## wessmith (12/2/08)

hockadays said:


> If you want a clear brew and are using the Boh pils definatley do a protein rest. The other two are fine single infusion.
> 
> Hockers



Hockers, not on the 2007 specs. As I posted earlier, look to your mash parameters.

Wes


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## matti (12/2/08)

Dough in @ 55 15 minutes
Mash @64 degrees for 60 min
Strike out at 72

PH 5.6-5.8 (Adjust all brew liqour)

Sounds good to me.


Look for some threads/pages from last year in the ag forum.
If I get time I'll dig 'em up for you all.
Matti


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## DJR (12/2/08)

Matti, no need for the protein rest at all, just get the pH right

Sounds like Weyermann wheat is the way to go - i'll have to get some! I'm going to get some Premium Pils as well, i think the main differences are that the premium is more modified and has a lighter colour?


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## hockadays (12/2/08)

wessmith said:


> Hockers, not on the 2007 specs. As I posted earlier, look to your mash parameters.
> 
> Wes



I understand what your saying wes but I went through a 25kg bag of the of Boh pils and the best results I got was with a rest I think at 55degc (I would have to check) and it produced a clear beer and the body etc didn't suffer. The two brews I did both single infusion ended up hazy. I've got better control of ph now and 4kg left of the boh pils so I might give single infusion another go to test your theory.

hockers


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