# Put on a keg at local club



## ballantynedewolf (17/10/17)

A mate and I are thinking about putting on a keg at our local community club as a fundraiser for the club. Has anyone done this and can offer tips? Is it even legal?
We don't own any kegs. Club has 3 taps on always but with standard stuff.
Thanks.


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## Grott (17/10/17)

I assume the club has a liquor license, therefore do your keg through them.


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## earle (17/10/17)

Not if you've brewed it yourself


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## Grott (17/10/17)

Good point earle, but you can do it by selling something with a free beer?


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## earle (17/10/17)

Not necessarily. There are threads on this question


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## malt junkie (17/10/17)

A production license is different to a supply license The ATO want their cut! Check with local Authorities and the ATO for a one off, shouldn't be too Hard to sort out.


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## mofox1 (17/10/17)

Depending on where you are in the country, you may be able to give it away if there is no "implied sale". Ie; no entry fee, no purchase price, etc... Otherwise tax man is going to want his cut on BOTH the production, and sale, of said alcohol. You may (definitely check) also need council approval.

Hmm, tried to find some references on Google but coming up sparse... Then again I only looked at the first page of hits. Hopefully someone else can chime in with confirmations or corrections.


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## ballantynedewolf (17/10/17)

Thanks for the responses. I should have made explicit that we are brewing ourselves. We are on the edge of Sydney. The club is licensed.


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## ballantynedewolf (17/10/17)

earle said:


> Not necessarily. There are threads on this question


I had searched "sell homebrew", got no hits and couldn't think what else to search for.


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## Grott (17/10/17)

error


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## malt junkie (17/10/17)

@Yob used to do a brew tent for the high land games annually. He used the license held by his brew club to produce and the beer was given away on the premise of a Licensed club with their permission. 
Note weather selling or giving away; permission will be required from local licensing and council will be required, or possible prosecution may result.


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## Crusty (18/10/17)

I've got nothing constructive to add or any sound advice to give but it shits me to tears that something like this is deemed illegal without the Government ( aka, ATO ) getting their grubby hands on some cash. Once that's sorted though, it's magically legal. We're getting god damn shafted in this country from electricity prices, rates, rents etc. Makes you want to disengage from society & be a free spirit. Stick all those regulations & rules up ya coita ya low life blood sucking Government leeches.
Sorry for the rant. Carry on boys.


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## Yob (18/10/17)

Grott said:


> Good point earle, but you can do it by selling something with a free beer?



No, called an implied sale.. Big no no


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## Yob (18/10/17)

ballantynedewolf said:


> Thanks for the responses. I should have made explicit that we are brewing ourselves. We are on the edge of Sydney. The club is licensed.



Is there an outdoor area you could set up a tent and a miracle box? I think putting it through the taps will bring you undone, if you ran a free sausage sizzle and gave away the beer not at the bar you might be able to swing it.

Serving size would need to be (by vcglr rules, Sydney may be different) 150ml 'sample' size with no exchange of coin.

Contact your local council or vcglr equivalent and ask the questions (carefully) but it's certain you can't take coin, as soon as you do you come under the excise laws... If your giving it away with no implied sales, and that can include ticketed events, you should be able to swing it.

We got a temporary liquor licence when we did it and was told, possible in error, that we didn't need one, make sure you cover your arse though and are covered by the venues public liability. 

Sounds complicated? It's not really, just a few hoops to jump through and due diligence to make sure you're covered. I'd hazard a guess that through the taps will be out though, present the 2 options and see what floats


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## Andy_27 (18/10/17)

Have you rung the local police station and had a chat to the licencing officer? Theyd be able to say yes or no since they comment on all licence applications.


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## ballantynedewolf (18/10/17)

Thanks, all. I run a film society so I'm well aware of the fallacy of the implied sale. I suspect we wouldn't raise much fund if we gave it away. I will phone the local dibbers. Thanks again for all your responses.


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## laxation (19/10/17)

Can't OP just give a keg to the club, who then sells it over the bar per normal?

What state are you in?


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## Pnutapper (19/10/17)

laxation said:


> Can't OP just give a keg to the club, who then sells it over the bar per normal?


Nope...

It needs to come from a licensed brewer who pays the excise to da man.


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## homebrewnewb (19/10/17)

be nice, but again no one is paying excise so there's that.
i see what you're getting at, do you want a "carlton" that i bought legit and am licensed for selling punters.
if the commission commissars catch you're okay for first infringement after that - don't get caught.
dammit @Pnutapper


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## laxation (19/10/17)

Liquor licensing act (in Vic anyway) prohibits selling liquor without a licence, with the rest of the regulations in the law being those imposed on the licensee... so maybe no problems there

According to my thorough 3second googling, you don't need to pay excise if you're brewing for non-commercial purposes. Looking at other stuff like this, maybe giving away a keg of beer for a fundraiser is not brewing for a commercial purpose?


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## homebrewnewb (19/10/17)

that's the one, @laxation non-commercial so as soon as there is implied sale, you're outside the non-commercial i would have thought.
i have wondered though, if you could account to cover brewing costs, prior to a commercial threshold.


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## laxation (19/10/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> that's the one, @laxation non-commercial so as soon as there is implied sale, you're outside the non-commercial i would have thought.
> i have wondered though, if you could account to cover brewing costs, prior to a commercial threshold.


OP isn't selling it though - he's donating it to the club, who then can do whatever they want with it.
there's probly some obscure shit hidden in some ato ruling about this


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## earle (19/10/17)

laxation said:


> Liquor licensing act (in Vic anyway) prohibits selling liquor without a licence, with the rest of the regulations in the law being those imposed on the licensee... so maybe no problems there
> 
> According to my thorough 3second googling, you don't need to pay excise if you're brewing for non-commercial purposes. Looking at other stuff like this, maybe giving away a keg of beer for a fundraiser is not brewing for a commercial purpose?



Non commercial loss rules are for something completely different and don't apply to this topic at all. Theses rules are about whether you can deduct a loss from one activity against income from employment or another activity. For this discussion commercial would most likely mean a supply for consideration, consideration being monetary or other.


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## earle (19/10/17)

laxation said:


> OP isn't selling it though - he's donating it to the club, who then can do whatever they want with it.
> there's probly some obscure shit hidden in some ato ruling about this


Someone is selling it though


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## GalBrew (19/10/17)

laxation said:


> OP isn't selling it though - he's donating it to the club, who then can do whatever they want with it.
> there's probly some obscure shit hidden in some ato ruling about this



Donations of beer are irrelevant. You can't do that, it's not even obscure. If you don't have a producers licence and pay excise to the ATO you can't sell beer that you have made regardless of who is selling. Not to mention state and local council laws you would also be flouting. 

Just go with what Yob said. He has done this before.


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## wynnum1 (19/10/17)

Can you run a _sausage sizzles_ some where the local school ran one at Masters and it was a disaster but have been told the ones at Bunnings are good if can get a day.


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## laxation (19/10/17)

Alright got it... s120(1)(iiia) of the Excise Act prohibits anyone from selling beer unless it's been brewed at a licenced brewery.

Except they say it in the most confusing way possible. Who'd have expected that from an ancient bloody tax law... 

Only a maximum $2100 fine, so just sell the beer really expensive at the fundraiser to cover costs! $34 a pot and you're golden.

But still.. can the club just give it away at the fundraiser just for people who are there?


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## Pnutapper (19/10/17)

laxation said:


> Alright got it... s120(1)(iiia) of the Excise Act prohibits anyone from selling beer unless it's been brewed at a licenced brewery.
> 
> Except they say it in the most confusing way possible. Who'd have expected that from an ancient bloody tax law...
> 
> ...




My understanding of the Victorian laws is that homebrew / moonshine etc. is not to be dispensed on licensed premises - even if it is given away. From memory, it has something to do with inaccurate measurement of alcoholic content. (Disclaimer: I sold my last pub 16 years ago, so my licencing knowledge may be a little rusty by now.)


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## laxation (19/10/17)

yeh you're probably right - i'm just curious about how it all fits together (and had a few min while I wait for a meeting...)


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## ballantynedewolf (19/10/17)

I have now found the other threads on this topic - don't know why it was no hits last time.
So the long and short of it is that you have to set up a micobrewery and give or throw away your product until your microbrewery can obtain a licence to produce, pay an 83% excise on full strength beer and you're in business. Interestingly, the excise rate is indexed - an indexed index!


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## EastVicLad (19/12/17)

Pretty sure i have been to a few partys that sell raffle tickets that can then be exchanged for drinks or kept for the raffle that way your not selling beer but selling raffle tickets... that was a few years ago


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## Stouter (20/12/17)

Will some young go getter that's studying law please look into this and give us all a final, definite, detailed break down for state to state laws. Surely there's a law student that could take this and turn it into a study paper!?
I've heard a number of different versions/interpretations of alcohol sales in W.A from seasoned social club members and ex-police officers. None of the explainations give me confidence.


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## laxation (20/12/17)

Stouter said:


> Will some young go getter that's studying law please look into this and give us all a final, definite, detailed break down for state to state laws. Surely there's a law student that could take this and turn it into a study paper!?
> I've heard a number of different versions/interpretations of alcohol sales in W.A from seasoned social club members and ex-police officers. None of the explainations give me confidence.


https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/put-on-a-keg-at-local-club.96807/page-2#post-1482163
And to follow on from the question I asked at the end...

The exemption for beer is only if one makes home-brewed beer for non-commercial purposes, using non-commercial equipment, then one may not need an excise licence as per ATO website section on Beer.

The act or intention of a commercial sale or distribution along a supply chain (even unknowingly) where the product is sold at any stage (for monetary or other consideration), is considered to be a commercial purpose and hence requires an Excise Manufacturer Licence, where excise duty would have to be paid.


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## mondestrunken (20/12/17)

Stouter said:


> Surely there's a law student that could take this and turn it into a study paper!?


Unlikely given that most lawyers wouldn't scratch their balls* pro bono, and what are law students but lawyers without any money?
* Sorry I meant non gender-specific body part prone to itchiness.


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## mondestrunken (20/12/17)

Given that Australians have probably been trying to make alcohol illegally and/or sell legally made booze without paying tax since 1788 I doubt there's a solution to this that hasn't been thoroughly thought through by the ATO at some point.
Maybe the best idea is gypsy brewing? That way all the legal/taxation stuff is handled by the established brewery who presumably know what they are doing. Of course the hard part would be finding a kindly and willing nanobrewery who has the time/capacity to help you out...


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## mondestrunken (20/12/17)

laxation said:


> ATO website section on Beer.


Maybe chuck 1/4 teaspoon of aspartame in the keg and hey presto it's no longer beer?

Edit: just so it's clear for legal reasons, that is a joke.


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## MHB (20/12/17)

Then its classed as "Other" and the excise goes up past $55/L of alcohol, and I'm not joking


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## mondestrunken (20/12/17)

Yep I told you they'd thought of everything.


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## MHB (20/12/17)

Just went and had a look at the Excise Tables, try $82.76/L


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## mondestrunken (20/12/17)

So wine is not taxed on the alcohol content? Just the "wholesale value"? What does that mean?
https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Wine-equalisation-tax/


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## laxation (21/12/17)

MHB said:


> Then its classed as "Other" and the excise goes up past $55/L of alcohol, and I'm not joking


lmfao of course it does


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## koshari (21/12/17)

mondestrunken said:


> So wine is not taxed on the alcohol content? Just the "wholesale value"? What does that mean?
> https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Wine-equalisation-tax/


it basically means they have a pretty strong lobby group working in their favour.


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## /// (21/12/17)

I’d recommend you drop hints to the family for soap on a rope and lots of them for Christmas. Illegal from a council, state and federal aspect regardless of how you try to wriggle around it. Particularly in NSW. 

Next ....


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## fdsaasdf (30/12/17)

I've had my home brew served in pubs (ACT and QLD) as either a charity function or for home brew competitions. In both cases punters paid entry to an event and these particular beers were served without charge. I didn't receive any of the proceeds.


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## laxation (30/12/17)

the reality is you'll not get in trouble for it. but it isn't technically legal


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (31/12/17)

In the uk it may be served for research purposes, which is the clause that homebrew comps would operate under


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## Mardoo (31/12/17)

laxation said:


> the reality is you'll not get in trouble for it. but it isn't technically legal



It’s the licensee that will get shafted.


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## /// (11/1/18)

Soap. On. A. Rope.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/18)

fdsaasdf said:


> I've had my home brew served in pubs (ACT and QLD) as either a charity function or for home brew competitions. In both cases punters paid entry to an event and these particular beers were served without charge. I didn't receive any of the proceeds.





laxation said:


> *the reality is you'll not get in trouble for it. but it isn't technically legal*



The ATO take a rather different view..

Homebrew club comp ( it it must be legit one, not just made up on the spot ) might be Ok...anything else, grab your toothbrush


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## laxation (12/1/18)

i meant not get caught.
if you get caught you're fkd, but i don't imagine the ato is sending officers regularly to little fundraising shindigs


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## Mardoo (12/1/18)

One of the VIC government guys I talked to said they absolutely monitor social media for evidence of evil doers and scoundrels. (He may not have sounded like a 30’s comic book.) 

It’s not like the folks who work in these places are a bunch of 90 year olds having tea and talking about The Great War. But then, there’s not a lot of identifying information in this thread.


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## mondestrunken (12/1/18)

Yes, the ATO has pretty powerful data matching capabilities. How do you think 99% of your tax return is already filled out for you these days? Good job that none of us here are advocating any illegal activities.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/18)

And another point, regardless of the nature of the function, if alcohol is consumed ( except in private property that stays on private property ) you will need to get some sort of permission to run the event with alcohol.

Get caught without permission then you better like prison green


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