# Hop Stabilisation



## UsernameTaken (9/5/17)

I amped up the hops in my recent IPA by doubling my late additions from 120g to 240g and after 5 days in the keg I thought I'd gone too far as it was so hoppy!

This remained pretty stable for the next 2 weeks and I then went away for 3 weeks.

On my return the beer had now been in the keg 5 weeks and the hops had mellowed significantly. No complaints as the beer was great now, but it has me wondering at what point does the hop flavour stabilise?

I do realise it slowly falls away over time and everyone says hoppy beer is best drunk fresh!

But I have never tasted such radical variation in any store bought hoppy beers and surely their package dates have varied by months rather than weeks?

Cheers,
UNT


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## MHB (9/5/17)

Its actually a very interesting question, I don't think there is going to be a right answer because all the possible answers are going to be subjective.
From experience 'the younger the better" somewhere around 2 weeks in package and there is a sudden change and that progresses to about 6 weeks where the rate of change slows dramatically.
Bit like Hefeweizen, the banana drops of rapidly, then stabilises after around the 6 week mark.
Two styles that I think you should make in small batches so you can clean (or suck it down) it up when its at its peak.
Mark


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## technobabble66 (9/5/17)

Also theory suggests it's very dependant on the level of Oxygen exposure the beer has (during the packaging phase).
I believe some of the US brewers known for their super-hoppy beers go to great lengths to minimise O2 exposure during the post-dry-hopping stages.

So it might be that after 2-4 weeks, any introduced O2 has been consumed and the resulting chemistry has largely run its course in diminishing hoppiness, and it seems to stabilise from there on.


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

So it's happened again. Big bright fruity hops days 3 to 7 in the keg and most of it gone by day 9!

Thats the hop flavour gone not the beer!

Does anyone else experience this?


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## MHB (28/6/17)

Another very real possibility is that as the beer "Lagers" hop fractions are adhering to the haze flock and being carried to the bottom.
You could try cold conditioning the beer very cold (-1oC+/- 1oC) until it is crystal clear (lagering it) then dry hopping. Once it is clear you could rack it or just dry hop in the fermenter or even dry hop in the keg.
Mark


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

It's a pale ale and I do cold crash in the fermenter at 3c for 7 days before kegging!

Would crashing colder and/or longer just leave me in the same place with the hop flavour gone?

Dry hopping in the keg could be the go!


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## mtb (28/6/17)

Do you use gelatin?


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

I did not in this brew.


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## mtb (28/6/17)

Just wanted to rule that out in case. Excessive gelatin use has ruined a fair few batches' hop aroma and necessitated a dry hop


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## klangers (28/6/17)

When you keep it in the keg, is the keg refrigerated?


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

Yes, the beer goes from fermentation fridge at crash temp 3c to keg and into keg fridge also at 3c. 

It may spend 20min at the most above 3c.

It seems like I am better off not touching it for 2 weeks and adjusting my recipe for that result?

But it is a shame when the beer is so good at 4 days!


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## Rocker1986 (28/6/17)

Can't say I've noticed a drop off in hop influence THAT quickly, although they do tend to diminish somewhat over time on tap. For this reason I always brew pale ales as the last batch in each block of three so that they go on tap quite fresh, and the hop influence in terms of flavor remains pretty constant until the keg blows dry. The aroma often is lessened by the time the keg is near empty compared to when it was first tapped, but the hop flavor itself generally sticks around to the last glass. 

I don't really do anything special to them. After fermentation they are dropped to 0C for a week or so, during which time isinglass is added once the beer drops down, followed by a dose of Polyclar 2 days later, then left to sit a few days before being kegged cold. The keg is allowed to rise to room temp unless it goes on tap straight away, as I don't have another fridge for storing kegs (yet, it's on the cards). It can sit anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks before being put into the keg fridge to be chilled and carbed and remains in there until empty of course.


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

So how soon after kegging are you tasting Rocker?


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## Rocker1986 (28/6/17)

It depends. Sometimes they get tapped a few days after kegging, sometimes they sit for 2 or 3 weeks first. I don't replace empty kegs one for one, I just put three full ones in at the same time and wait until the last of them is emptied before the next three go in. That's why the pale ales are the last of each block of three to be fermented and kegged, so they spend the shortest time in the keg before being tapped.


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## Danscraftbeer (28/6/17)

UsernameTaken said:


> So it's happened again. Big bright fruity hops days 3 to 7 in the keg and most of it gone by day 9!
> 
> Thats the hop flavour gone not the beer!
> 
> Does anyone else experience this?


Yeah I do. I'm a tight arse in a way with hops too but I don't believe so compared to commercial brewers?  
The more you dry hop the more beer you lose as well as the shitload of hops.
I have to think the commercial craft brewers have technique mastered and try to maximize the ingredient character and think how to attempt it at home. 
Honestly how big should a hop stand be to get very hoppy results after say a month conditioning?
I've gone to 7g/l with fresh home grown hops that suck up a lot of the beer then to be pleased with the hop aroma and blown away with the hoppyness flavour when its fairly fresh in the keg. Then after 2 weeks the aroma is nearly gone. The hop flavour is mellowed.
I surrender to taking notes and keep searching for the holy grail.


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## Danscraftbeer (28/6/17)

Added. I have draught to PET bottles to see the longer time and there is the stabalization. Kept refridgerated or room temps too.
One month cold conditioning on tap then bottled will do pretty well for overall flavour stabilization. Improvement with time too but the malts seem to overcome the hops in time YMMV.
Well may be differences between the cold kept and the warm kept bottles but they are all good to drink and take tasting notes if you could be fucked to. Flavour changes can be very interesting.
You do have to consider that all the commercial products can/will vary under varying conditions as well and maybe/probably, they take that into account.


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

Thanks Dan, at least now I know I'm not losing the plot!

I currently have my first NEIPA in the fermenter, so we will see if the cloudiness from the flaked oats keep the late hoppiness in suspension for longer as advertised?


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## Danscraftbeer (28/6/17)

As advertised? I missed that. So Flaked oats help retain cloudiness that retains hop aroma? Is that the concept?
I'll have to try that. I know there is flavour in the cloudiness so its a valid thought. hmmm,


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## UsernameTaken (28/6/17)

It's a theory I have heard. The oats and the dry hopping early in the fermentation, apparently?


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## Rocker1986 (28/6/17)

Maybe it's just a case of becoming accustomed to the flavor and aroma of a particular beer and becoming desensitised to it somewhat the more you drink it. I don't know if it applies with drinking beer, but I have experienced it with vaping - if I use the same flavor over and over for too long it becomes bland.


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## RdeVjun (29/6/17)

Granted, there many complex factors outlined above and some are quite difficult to quantify, but I wouldn't discount desensitisation of the palate. Getting a second opinion would be helpful too, competitions are worthwhile in this respect (ed. although picking an entry from several candidates where you feel the character may be suffering is a challenge, so perhaps phone an impartial friend if you can.)


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## UsernameTaken (29/6/17)

I see what your saying, but I really do not think this is the case. I have been bottling for many years and have drank the beer too early and then when it is good and then seen the hops slowly fall away over many weeks.

But now in the keg I am good to go after 3 days at 20 PSI, so am seeing a very different rate of transition in my beer!

I only started kegging this year and even more recently started experimenting with very large doses of late and dry hops. 9 to 13.5 g/L so far.

To my surprise these beer were amazing after 3 days in the keg and stayed that way for another 48 hours or so, but then sadly started to fall away very quickly to the point where by day 6 it was a completely different beer. 

In fact with some of my earlier experiments, like an 11 g/L whirlpool addition, I thought I had gone too far with hops as it was off the chart day 5. But a week later it was very drinkable. 

It now seems the heavy dry hop additions fall away even more quickly!


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## RdeVjun (30/6/17)

Yep, agreed, really wanted to make sure it didn't fall off the radar as just one of the many factors.
Similar experiences here although not tipping in hops to the same extent, but I don't have high expectations that late & dry hops character will persist reliably- sometimes it does, others not and it is perplexing.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/6/17)

Gordon Strong covers some of this in his excellent book 'Brewing better beer'


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## MHB (30/6/17)

There was a saying popularised among some of the early West Coast AIPA brewers
"14 Days from Grain to Brain!" that's 1 week to make it and 1 week to drink it. Personally for the hops to the exclusion of everything else styles, I have to agree.
Similar to Hefeweizen, they are at there best very young and don't improve with storage (or transport), probably why we see so little of what should be a craft brewery staple in Australia.

There are things you can do to eke out a bit more death by hops, but unless you are willing to put in a lot of time and effort, I would brew smaller batches more often and drink them young.
Mark


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## Coodgee (30/6/17)

I find that with big IPAs, and I'm talking dry hopping at 10g/l and 5g/l whirlpool, when they are first kegged they have a strong flavour but it's got every aroma and flavour under the sun in there, and a lot of them are harsh or undesirable. After some time, and perhaps with fining, a lot of these aromas and flavours, both good and bad, dissipate. But then what I find happens is that after about 6-8 weeks in the kegs you get a really pure, pleasant hop aroma that is quite strong and only contains the really nice fruit/floral aromas that you want out of hops. My conjecture is that maybe desirable volatile hop oils are released over time that are suspended in the beer, long after the undesirable compounds have dissipated or settled out of suspension on the bottom of the keg. This could possibly be due to instrument error (my nose) but it's not a subtle thing for me. after I came back from a one month holiday, I had a citra IPA that just ponged of lovely fruity aroma, i.e.m the aroma was very strong.


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## UsernameTaken (30/6/17)

Is your transfer from fermenter to keg oxygen free?


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## Dave70 (30/6/17)

UsernameTaken said:


> Is your transfer from fermenter to keg oxygen free?



Thats a point.
Do the pros do all transfers in a nitrogen / CO2 environment?


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## UsernameTaken (30/6/17)

I believe so?


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## Danscraftbeer (30/6/17)

I do co2 transfers properly now. Zero exposure to oxygen/air and it does have improvement but there still is loss in hop aroma that happens quite quick in the serving time but I take it as that's the nature of things. Like I mentioned I hop stand at ~7g/l. I see others go much higher than that but my problem with that is I use flowers a lot and its like a pillow full of hops flowers soak up a lot of beer!
I have had beers that are over the top in hoppiness like using say Galaxy as an example. Over the top early in serving then mellows fairly quick. The thing I'm getting common now is the hop arome dissipates but the hop flavour is still right up there high and potent. So! Considering reality you can only detect the aroma when you smell it before you drink your first glass. After that your senses in that way are saturated and you cant smell it any more anyway so I'm happy to settle with big hop flavour that lasts (in the keg, or bottle over time, like months etc) even if the aroma doesn't. Then again the hop flavour does diminish a little over time as well but it seems to blend and let the malt become more present as well.
$0.02


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## UsernameTaken (30/6/17)

I am syphoning out of my open fermenter into an open keg as the tap pulls through too much crud!

In fact my current IPA with 9g/l of dry hop pellets has totally clogged the tap up and I cannot even take a sample!

How do you transfer Dan?


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## Danscraftbeer (30/6/17)

I've gone totally pressure ferment and co2 pressure transfers. I also purge my serving kegs properly by filling them to the brim with star san and then co2 pressured force out the star san to empty the keg before the beer gets transfers into it. Never open exposures etc. So effectively my beer never gets exposed to air post ferment.

If this sounds difficult it isn't! Its actually easier, no messes, no exposures. I have to stress this point that its far easier, cleaner, purer with better results and no stressfull situations.

I've practically given away dry hopping. Big Hop stands as the alternative.
Clean wort fermentation with no hop matter to block up and frustrate etc.
The only snag I hit was trying to dry hop with pellets. The odd exceptions to dry hop with flowers in a sock in the serving keg before pressure transferring in the beer. Pellets are no good in the serving keg though, small particles, crud etc blocking up keg outposts is a prick.


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## Danscraftbeer (30/6/17)

Add to that^^. When pressure fermenting and a dry (hop pellets in a sock) addition blocked the gas out with spunding valve and the ferment pressure reached 40 psi when I found it and that is a potentially dangerous situation. Like bottle bombs think if I didn't attend to the situation I could have had a keg bomb. That's pretty scary. Blocked all PRV, Gas post and beer post.
I nearly got shot in the head with the dip tube when I was forced to remove it. Then experienced a beer volcano situation.
So I stress another note: *Don't use hop pellets in pressure fermentation vessels!
*


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## UsernameTaken (30/6/17)

Duly noted. I'm safe for now as I don't even know what pressure fermenting is!

Just googling it ...


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## Rocker1986 (30/6/17)

Mine aren't done in a closed system, but I solve the crud problem in a couple of different ways. With 21L batches I just drain 3 glasses of it out of the tap before transfer because I can't be fucked mucking around with bottles for a litre or so of beer. With 25L batches, the surplus goes into the small keg first, so it ends up in there, then the 19L keg is filled second. 

The hose goes on the tap into the bottom of the open keg. Maybe the period they sit at room temp before being put in the keg fridge helps mop up some of whatever oxygen is in there, I don't know, but I don't experience huge drops in hop influence quickly. Having said that, I don't put huge amounts of hops into the beer either so perhaps that's another factor in it.


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## UsernameTaken (4/7/17)

I watched the video thanks wide eye. Very interesting and informative but did not really address my issue of rapid loss of hop flavour!

The best leads I seem to have so far are;

A. Oxygen exposure during fermenter to keg transfer - If so I don't know what to do as my tap is blocked with hop debris!

B. It's perfectly normal so don't taste before 7 days - if so pretty frustrating as the beer is so good from 3 to 5 days and this is what I want stabilised for 6 to 8 weeks or more!

Cheers,
UNT


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## wide eyed and legless (5/7/17)

The video was just an introduction to Gordon Strong, its the book you will need to read, he has given away dry hopping but he does have an interesting hop regime for example he covers first wort hopping, (hopping at mash out) he believes that the higher pH gives a better hop flavour but only if your IBU is going to be over 50.
Hereis how he hops a AIPA, I, won't print the whole recipe just his hop additions.
28 g Amarillo, 14 g Tomahawk @ 20 mins
14 g Tomahawk @ 15 mins
14 g Tomahawk @ 10 mins
14 g Simcoe @ 5 mins
28 g Amarillo @ 2 mins
14 g Simcoe @ 0 mins
Then bring down the temperature of the wort ASAP.
He does suggest that to achieve what you are after for a home brewer is to make up a Randall and minimising oxygen exposure already suggested.

QUOTE FROM TECHNOBABBLE
I believe some of the US brewers known for their super-hoppy beers go to great lengths to minimise O2 exposure during the post-dry-hopping stages.


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## GalBrew (5/7/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I've gone totally pressure ferment and co2 pressure transfers. I also purge my serving kegs properly by filling them to the brim with star san and then co2 pressured force out the star san to empty the keg before the beer gets transfers into it. Never open exposures etc. So effectively my beer never gets exposed to air post ferment.
> 
> If this sounds difficult it isn't! Its actually easier, no messes, no exposures. I have to stress this point that its far easier, cleaner, purer with better results and no stressfull situations.
> 
> ...



So when you do a closed transfer, how do you know when your keg is full? Do you weigh it or just go off your fermenter volume markings? I've been thinking of going this way myself. Aside from your pressure ferments have you noticed an improvement due to closed transfers?


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## UsernameTaken (5/7/17)

So what is the best way to transfer from fermenter to keg if my fermenter tap is completely clogged from all my dry hop additions?


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## Dave70 (5/7/17)

UsernameTaken said:


> So what is the best way to transfer from fermenter to keg if my fermenter tap is completely clogged from all my dry hop additions?



Got to Bunnings, get ye some 10 mm vinyl tube and get succky with it. You can clip it to the rim of the fermenter with a clothes peg so you dont stand there holding it for ten minutes if you like. 
Or do what I did. Try and clear it by blowing in it, only to have it re clog in seconds flat. Then get the shits. Then go to Bunnings.


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## UsernameTaken (5/7/17)

I already have an autosyphon that enables me to syphon from the open fermenter to the open keg quite easily.

However, all this oxygen exposure this is what some are suggesting may be my problem that is causing my hop flavours to fall away so quickly!?!?!?! 

Then others say no!?!?!?!??!


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## tugger (5/7/17)

Use a floating dip tube.


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## UsernameTaken (5/7/17)

How do I attach that to the fermenter?


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## tugger (5/7/17)

You need to buy the appropriate fermenter. Keg king fermentasaurus.


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## Danscraftbeer (5/7/17)

GalBrew said:


> So when you do a closed transfer, how do you know when your keg is full? Do you weigh it or just go off your fermenter volume markings? I've been thinking of going this way myself. Aside from your pressure ferments have you noticed an improvement due to closed transfers?


By weight. I set the keg on bathroom scales. Keg typically weigh 5kg when empty so stop filling at 23kg =18lt.
Definitely an improvement in process. Its easier and less stress this way. I've never actually had an infection of any kind even before closed transfer but as for flavour Its hard to tell without judging it against my past brews and I'm getting fussier too I think. Improved as in much faster process too and quicker to get clear beer without using finings. 
I also wash yeast and harvest yeast into PET bottles all closed transfer as well. (fill mini keg with boiling water and let cool, transfer some water into kegmenter, shake mix the yeast cake, transfer into PET bottles. I really like the piece of mind of this kind of process. Like the pro's. 
I still get disappointed at loss of hop aroma though but hop flavour seems pretty consistant.


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## wide eyed and legless (6/7/17)

UsernameTaken said:


> I already have an autosyphon that enables me to syphon from the open fermenter to the open keg quite easily.
> 
> However, all this oxygen exposure this is what some are suggesting may be my problem that is causing my hop flavours to fall away so quickly!?!?!?!
> 
> Then others say no!?!?!?!??!


Oxygen exposure is a factor, even throwing your hops in at the start of the boil exposes the hops to the oxygen in the wort, hence the reason Strong does not put his first hop additions in until 20 minutes before flame out when the oxygen has boiled off.


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## mofox1 (6/7/17)

UsernameTaken said:


> I am syphoning out of my open fermenter into an open keg as the tap pulls through too much crud!
> 
> In fact my current IPA with 9g/l of dry hop pellets has totally clogged the tap up and I cannot even take a sample!



I've done a few beers like this... Best result has been by dry hoping multiple times. First one (say a third of total) in primary, but then transfer to another purged fermenter with the remaining two third of the dry hop. Transfer is done via silicone tube, tap to tap so there is no additional oxygen ingress to the target fermenter. I'll purge the headspace again with CO2 before bunging the airlock in.

This will get it off the first lot of hops and yeast cake/trub freeing up those first couple of litres at the bottom of the fermenter for the new lot of hops to settle into. I also tip the fermenter on a angle to keep the tap clear.

After a big long CC at zero,I find that I can package without issue.

Also - If you use cling wrap over the keg mouth a poke a small hole for a transfer hose, you can purge and then fill with minimal O2. Purge again after replacing the lid, and the beer would have picked up very little oxygen, and there won't be any left in the headspace.

YMMV, 2c, yadda yadda, whatever works for you.

Caveat: I probably go thru a lot of CO2. [emoji16]


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## UsernameTaken (6/7/17)

Nice mofox1, complicated, but nice!

I am kegging tomorrow and am planning on syphoning out the top on my open fermenter into a purged and closed keg!

Some have suggested the fermenter should have a bed of CO2 over the liquid so O2 exposure from the open fermenter is much less of of risk than from an open keg?

Thoughts?


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## UsernameTaken (11/7/17)

So after 3 days at 20PSI I am over the moon with my first NEIPA. Massive grapefruit hit from the double dose of dry hopping with Cascade!

I transfered into a purged keg through the liquid out this time, but am still shit scared my big bright flavours are going to disappear too quickly!?!?!?!??!


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