# Bore Water contains Iron & Copper



## RichardLavender (5/1/16)

I live in Oak Beach Australia where rain and bore is our only source of water. The tanks hold both.

I'm currently using store bought water but I want to use my property water but have been told that the water is high in copper and Iron and will not brew a good beer.


What are your thoughts and solutions? Thank you


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## wobbly (5/1/16)

First step would be to have a sample analysed to confirm just what is in the water besides copper and Iron then you will have a sound point to move forward from.

If your water report indicates high levels of contaminates and has high residual hardness then your option may well be to purchase a Reverse Osmosis unit to treat your brewing water.

Onlinebrewing Supplies has a unit for about $90 see details here http://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/index.php?cPath=74&osCsid=ckq0hv3krcod5op82gse7so2e5 

I can't speak for how effective it is as I don't have one and "others" on this forum maybe able to offer comments based on experience

There are a number of brewers that use RO water who maybe able to help you with what to purchase and what it might cost.

If you go down the road of using "soft water" (RO, Distilled, Rain etc) for your brewing then you might want to have a read of this topic http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

It's a big read 121 pages but I found it very helpful in transitioning from "Tap" water to Rain water

Cheers

Wobbly


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## RichardLavender (6/1/16)

Hi Wobbly,

First, thank you for your response, suggestions and insights. They are very appreciated.
I'm a home brewer currently focused on learning and using extract worts, although had success with fresh worts purchased in 15L qty.

My goal is to reduce cost per bottle and to use home water instead of store bought. We are not on treated town water. How we've survived these 17 years without filtration is a wonder (being facetious). We cook with it and make coffee with it. But, reluctant to make beer with it. 

I have put thought into testing the water but after consideration I realise that the test results will be a 'moving target' ie. rain water is seasonal and mixed with bore water in the tanks. The temperature of the season might also be a variable. My conclusion would be that I would have to have monthly or quarterly tests done to gain a result. I have considered RO but with a 1 to 3 result I'm not impressed with water waste but understand that the results would be favourable.

I brew two batches twice monthly and water requirements are less than 60L's 

I have thought about purchasing a water test kit from an aquarium shop and possibly a multi stage aquarium filter along with a UV light filter to gain a level of base water. Then, I'd have to figure out how to reduce the water hardness to soft. 

All this has my head spinning - but it is an interesting study and one most brewers eventually take.


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## kalbarluke (6/1/16)

I lived in western QLD (Charleville) for a few years and used bore water for brewing. It was only kit and kilo but it turned out okay. Some of my friends brewed some decent beers using bore water, but I wasn't so picky back then.

If you brew two batches a month, try one with bore water (especially if there is more rain water in the tank). Or half bought water, half tank water.


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## RichardLavender (6/1/16)

Hi Kaibarluke - thanks for the info - I have to write from all my reading and review of filter systems and now trying to understand hard and soft water issues my head is spinning.

One argument that I have read and consider is bacteria. Rainwater comes from the roof gutters and while they are generally clean there are bird, animal and air contaminants that can have an affect on water quality and safety. Does one just ignore these issues and brew away. In one article I read that hops kills bacteria. Then there are open fermentation brewing which invites bacteria and wild yeast. 

Where does one just say 'the heck with it' and brew away? If it tastes good drink it?


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## kalbarluke (6/1/16)

yeah, good point. Bacteria will screw up your brew. You could boil it first, but if you are going to do that you may as well go down the AG track. I would probably keep buying store bought water or get one of the RO contraptions mentioned earlier.


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## Benn (6/1/16)

There's several threads on here that discuss the Pro's & Cons of Tap vs Tank water, Plenty of brewers using one or the other or both.
Would it be possible for you to collect your brewing water from elsewhere? could you fill up a couple of 20L cubes from a mains supply somewhere or even collect your rain water first before it mixes with your bore water?


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## Bribie G (6/1/16)

My brewing RO unit chucks out around 2/3 waste water, perfectly ok for watering plants or run it into the washing machine.


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## Rizzla (11/1/16)

Hi, I'm i the same situation, no town water and rely on a bore. My bore is high in Iron and plays havoc with my pool chemistry. I used to take containers to a mates place and fill with chlorinated town water for my brews but decided to try my own water one day (about 3 years ago) as its a bit hard to get away from my mate when he wants a chat. I really do think my brews are better for it and I know some of the historic WA breweries were reluctant to disclose their well water sources to competitors, believing the water made their particular beer special. My thoughts are if the copper is not well above WHO recommendations use your bore water.

Recently had a NYD party and lost a keg to the masses, comments mostly around "I've paid $10 a pint for ales no better than this"

Cheers


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

Hi Kit,

Thanks for your response. Here is what I have concluded. 'Beer making is an experimental process' so experiment and see what happens. 
The beer will either taste bad or it won't.

I have purchased a used sink and tap to be used in my garage next to my brew room (yes I now have a temp controlled brew room, built the counter to hold in place and waiting for two separate filters to arrive (see below for ebay links). Once the filters arrive I will have the plumber out to connect everything. The two filters are an interesting and inexpensive 'possible' solution. I have also purchased a drinking water test kit. The test kit comes with one bacteria tester and two separate testers that disclose findings on 25 different categories, iron and copper being two.. Upon receipt of the test kit I will run a test on the water and then when the filters are installed I'll run a second test to see the difference. Hopefully the use of the filters will reduce the high copper levels.

Here are the products I purchased

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Home-Pre-waterway-Protector-Stainless-Filter-Mesh-Alga-Separator-Water-Purifier-/121843157427?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Home-Stainless-Steel-700L-H-Bacteria-Rust-Alga-Separator-Water-Purifier-Filter-/271994443652

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201435463849?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I would be interested to read comments / opinions about the above purchases from the readers.


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## Curly79 (11/1/16)

I got back from holidays last week to find that our tank water had a nasty, dirty smell to it. It had been getting worse over the last 6 months or so but it was at a stage where something had to be done. Over two days I completely drained it , cleaned it and filled it up with our bore water which I reckon is pretty nice as far as bore water goes. I'll keep you posted how my first brew with the bore water goes.


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

What a job to drain and clean! No fun.


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## Curly79 (11/1/16)

The thing that really annoyed me was it was 3/4 full! About 25,000 Ltrs


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

Understood that's a great loss or a good lawn watering


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## wynnum1 (11/1/16)

If the bore water is high in copper and Iron would that harm RO filter and could sea water filtered be easier.


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

We know that our bore is high in copper and iron thus the reason for the purchase of the above two filters. Neither are an RO system.

I'm told that high contents of copper will affect the taste of the beer. Ok, my argument is that in the earlier days of brewing copper fermenters were used along with copper piping. Water in contact with a metal material will acquire the properties of the metal. Or, in earlier days when water was not able to be tested I'm sure high contents of minerals were present. The rebuttal is that today we have ways of measuring these variables and because we can we can produce better beer taste and quality.


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## wynnum1 (11/1/16)

Is the water drinkable copper is toxic at higher levels .


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

We've been using it for cooking and making coffee for 17 years. 
When on the property I drink from the hose.
I can assure you that I am still living and have no known health issues.

If it wasn't for my new passion of brewing beer for the past year I would not have been concerned.

Once the drinking water test kit arrives we'll know the results.


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## Mardoo (11/1/16)

AFAIK copper only negatively affects beer post-boil. High iron content in brewing water can induce a haze that's pretty much impossible to get rid of, which may or may not be a concern for you. Off-hand I don't know what that level is.

Edit: A quick Google search says iron begins to affect flavour around 0.5ppm and throws haze and affects yeast health at 1ppm. Tin in brewing water also throws a similar haze.


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

Hey Mardoo - thank you for the input - very interesting

When you write 'only negatively affects beer post-boil' do you mean when creating a wort and bringing the ingredients to a boil?

Some, but not all of my brews, have been hazy ... but, I have found using different yeasts gives me a better result with hazy beer.

I'm getting the impression, per your post, that my bore water will be fine to use as long as there is no evidence of bacteria. And, if there is boiling the water or a UV filter would resolve that issue.


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## Mardoo (11/1/16)

Basically during and post-fermentation. copper ions in the wort are fine. Using copper implements during wort production is fine. You don't want the fermenting or finished beer to be in direct contact with copper implements. I originally got this information from the Brew Strong show.


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## wynnum1 (11/1/16)

Drink the beer and not the water its safer.


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## RichardLavender (11/1/16)

Hi Mardoo - apologies for the confusion but I still don't totally understand your meaning. You write:

Basically during and post-fermentation. copper ions in the wort are fine. Using copper implements during wort production is fine. You don't want the fermenting or finished beer to be in direct contact with copper implements.

Using water to make a wort that is high in copper is ok because of the boiling process but after the wort and adding additional water containing copper is not ok. Correct?


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## Mardoo (11/1/16)

Correct. With provisions 

The information I have regarding avoiding copper during or post-fermentation pertains to copper implements, e.g. a copper fermenter or storage vessel. I expect the addition of copper-bearing water during or after fermentation would have a significantly lesser effect, but I don't know for sure. 

Basically, if I were in your situation I would not add your water to the wort or fermenter post-boil, but would give it a go for making wort.


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## wobbly (11/1/16)

Hi RL

You indicate that your copper and Iron come from your bore water. It would be unlikely to be in the rain water. If you are close to the Ocean your salt/sodium content may be high in the rain water 

To understand where you are at/going it would be best to know just what level of copper and iron (PPM) are in your bore water from there you can/could adopt a dilution regime otherwise you are just shooting in the dark. If/once you know these dilution at 1:1 will halve the concentration and 2:1 will reduce it to 25%

WRT to "bugs" in your rain water don't get too paranoid as lots of brewers use rain water with little or no treatment. If you are overly concerned just pasteurize the water (heat to around 70C and hold for about 10 to 15 mins) and that will kill all the bugs likely to impact on the brew. Others will claim it is necessary to boil but I don't believe that to be necessary

for what it's worth

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Feldon (11/1/16)

Just reminder that the OP is making extract brews using top-up water, and using fresh wort kits topped up with water.

So if there are microbes in the top-up bore/rain water there is a chance of him infecting his brew unless he boils first. How high a chance? Depends on the number and type of ogranisms he is introducing, and how fast his fermentations kick off - the quicker the better I would think.

As regards copper in water, my understanding is that its not a problem on the hot-side of an all grain brew (mashing, boiling) but not on the cold-side (fermentation) of any method of brewing.

The reasoning I've read is mainly based around the use of copper vessels and copper plumbing. The time the wort is in contact with copper during mashing and boiling is not deemed sufficient for adverse levels of copper to enter the wort. And any copper that does get in is quickly scavenged by the yeast which use it as a nutrient.

The preference against using copper in fermentors or cold-side plumbing is that the fermentation itself further lowers the wort pH causing more copper to enter the beer, and the beer sits longer in the fermentor too. So copper is released into the beer at a rate faster than the yeast can consume it, and when the yeast become inactive (eg. during cold crashing) copper levels increase even more. The excess or residual copper can lead to the formation of copper sulphate in the beer which is toxic.

But the OP is not talking about using a copper fermentor, but using copper 'contaminated' water. So it all depends on the ppm of copper in his bore/rain water, and how much he can expect the yeast to consume during fermentation.


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## bundy (11/1/16)

As the OP already collects Rainwater (which in most cases is pretty much as pure as you can get unless you live next door to some big industrial area) I'd suggest the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get good clean water is to get another small Rainwater tank and collect just rainwater in that for brewing. That way there's no mixing in Borewater and you have pure fresh rainwater for your Brews. As you are extract brewing and you mentioned you are worried about any "nasties" that might be living in the rainwater, the solution to that is just boil what you need (20L or so) a day or 2 prior and that way you are guaranteed to kill off anything that might be lurcking (But as you drink it anyway day in day out, that's probably not even necessary) 

So if you have the room you can get those 1000L Cubes pretty cheap e.g. $65 here http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/rosewood/miscellaneous-goods/1000l-water-pods/1099215201

1000L is a lot of Beer to make between the next time it rains to fill up your tank.


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## drsmurto (12/1/16)

The 2 filters the OP has purchased will not remove the copper and iron from the water assuming they are dissolved and not particulate. Only an RO unit can do that. Standard 2 stage filters (sediment, carbon) remove sediment, bacterial contamination, chlorine and dissolved organic compound. They will not remove dissolved inorganic ions such as copper and iron and any of the brewing related ions (calcium, magnesium, sulfate, chloride).

As for whether either copper and iron will impact on your beer the answer is a definite yes. They will accelerate oxidation. From a chemistry perspective, oxygen can't react with organic compounds, it first reacts with transition metals (due to the electronic configuration of oxygen) and iron and copper are very good at it as they can redox cycle and rapidly activate the oxygen in to a compound that can react with organic compounds. 

If you are going to use an RO system make sure you use a good pre-sediment filter and change it regularly. 

Rainwater can be great for brewing providing you know what is in it. Bore water is generally very high in dissolved minerals but as a first step, test.


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## RichardLavender (12/1/16)

Thanks DrSumrto for your information - very informative. The seller of the two filters guaranteed me that one would definitely remove copper and iron when I challenged him. I'm not crazy about investing in an RO unit due to the amount of wastewater that is generated. 

I await the arrival of the drinking water test kits to evaluate the mineral content. Right now the amount of minerals is all speculation.

Your statement about oxidation is very helpful and makes things very clear. However, once brewed the beer on the shelf doesn't last very long with friends and personal consumption.

Wouldn't boiling the water for a period of time remove the minerals?


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/16)

Have you made a beer from the water as is ?

It might turn out to be Ok.


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## RichardLavender (12/1/16)

Hi Ducatiboy Stu - yes, as described above I went to Woolworths and purchased a can of their Draught Extract and 1Kg of Brewers sugar. I boiled 15ltrs of tank/rainwater and put together a brew.

Today, it is on its 5th day and the hydro reading is 1.005. The brew is cloudy, smells like like a beer and tastes like a beer but high in carbonation. I plan on giving it a couple more days of testing prior to bottling.

Remember having tanks results from having a combination of rainwater and bore. If the rains are minimal then the tanks are topped up with bore water.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> The brew is cloudy, smells like like a beer and tastes like a beer


You have beer then

I would do a full bore water one, but use an English Bitter recipie. English Bitters love hard water ( the same way that Pilsner loves soft water )


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## RichardLavender (12/1/16)

Yep Ducatiboy Stu if it looks like a beer, tastes like a beer and smells like a beer then it is probably a beer.

This is the first brew using tank water. 
Other brews have been store water and they too come out cloudy at first and settle down prior to, but most times after bottling.
I used two less ltr's for this brew to bring about a higher alcohol reading. 
I suspect this is why the brew is so carbonated on day 5. I'm considering only using one carbonated drop for 730 bottle instead of two when bottling.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/16)

Have you looked at this thread

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89381-brewing-water-great-website-for-info-knowledge/


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## drsmurto (12/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> Thanks DrSumrto for your information - very informative. The seller of the two filters guaranteed me that one would definitely remove copper and iron when I challenged him. I'm not crazy about investing in an RO unit due to the amount of wastewater that is generated.
> 
> I await the arrival of the drinking water test kits to evaluate the mineral content. Right now the amount of minerals is all speculation.
> 
> ...


The seller is telling you porky pies. One of the filters even mentions it does not remove minerals as they are good for human consumption. Possible something got lost in translation but you have bought filters that cannot remove dissolved ions, it is physically impossible to do so. Neither of the filters are anything other than over engineered, shiny, particulate filters. Not even a carbon filter. Less effective than a standard underbench filtration system and costly.


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## RichardLavender (12/1/16)

Thanks Beer God - both the filters seem to do the same thing. 

What's your opinion on boiling the tank water?

And about oxidation? Rarely do the brews last more than a month after aging.


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## drsmurto (12/1/16)

If you drink beers that quick then oxidation is not going to be an issue. It also relies on oxygen getting in so if you avoid splashing the beer during transfers etc you'll be fine.

Boiling can help, i know of a few bore water treatment setups designed specifically to remove iron by precipitating it as the oxide (rust) before filtering.


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## wynnum1 (13/1/16)

I you do not know whats in bore water better to not use for drinking .Does the local government in your area have treated water bore water may be better from other bores in your area until tank fills up.Filtering tank water is probably best option.


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## mr_wibble (13/1/16)

I reckon you should do a side x side test with a bottled water, bore water, and 50/50 bore+rain.
Sure the minerals might make a difference, but can anyone taste it? That's the real question.

Everything I've read says copper is a yeast nutrient. 
And as you say plenty of old-world breweries still use copper boilers.

If you're concerned about using untreated rain water in a kit beer, either boil it (with some hops, Mmmm)
or use it as a prima facie evidence that you _must_ try all-grain brewing. 

And FWIW - we drink, brew and bath in collected untreated rain water.


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## wynnum1 (13/1/16)

Untreated rain water can also be filtered they have silver to kill bacteria the rainwater tank does anyone make an automatic cleaner like pools that could be used to remove dirt.


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## RichardLavender (16/1/16)

Water test kit arrived yesterday - reading instructions over and over again before test. Will test tomorrow and share results


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## wynnum1 (16/1/16)

Our government is better at covering up this would never happen in Australia.
The crisis erupted after Flint stopped receiving its water supply from the neighbouring city of Detroit due to unaffordable hikes in rates and started sourcing from the local Flint River in April 2014 as a cost-cutting temporary measure.


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/michigan-state-sued-flint-toxic-water-disaster-160115131132739.html


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## Mardoo (16/1/16)

Yeah, but their water didn't contain iron and copper


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## RichardLavender (23/1/16)

Here are the results of the tests I ran. The water sample was taken directly next to the bore pump and I flushed the line for over a minute. The bore pump sits 2 acres away from the tanks.

The Bacteria test I did the sample was taken from the tab in the kitchen. I flushed the line for over a minute.

I'll be interested in your comments - thanks.

Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 8.0
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0


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## Jack of all biers (23/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> Here are the results of the tests I ran. The water sample was taken directly next to the bore pump and I flushed the line for over a minute. The bore pump sits 2 acres away from the tanks.
> 
> The Bacteria test I did the sample was taken from the tab in the kitchen. I flushed the line for over a minute.
> 
> ...


I assume your values are all mg/L? (other than the pH) If so your water is fairly soft with a CaCo3 (Alkalinity) at 8 mg/L. Even the 'soft' Melbourne water sits between 11 and 24 mg/L.

The only one that is a little high is the Chloride content that is twice the Aesthetic value of the 2004 NHMRC Guidelines which is 250 mg/L for Chloride (this is not the Health maximum, but an Aesthetic value to do with taste thresholds and appearance factors, so don't be alarmed).

Compared to Adelaide mains water you have a higher copper value (average Adelaide test results were 0.0616 mg/L between 2004 and 2009), but the 2004 NHMRC Guideline Health values for the maximum amount of copper is 2mg/L so you are doing fine there. (Melbourne sits around 0.02 mg/L)

Iron is also not a problem despite your initial concerns 

Bacteria is easily dealt with and depending on which bacteria, the alcohol content and preservative effects of hops in the beer will keep most bacteria dorment. In saying that, if you are going to add filters that take out the bacteria then this is not going to be a bother. Or just boil or pasteurise at 70C prior.

Your pH value is a little acidic though. pH 4-5? Even with your soft water, I'd think that is low. I'd test that one again to make sure of your values. If your pH value is correct then depending on the pipes and tanks you use, your water may be picking up metals from the metal piping or tanks. Also from my memory, too acidic a water supply can over time soften the veins and arteries in the body, causing health problems. I'm not sure what pH level is too low though the authorities in Melbourne add Lime, caustic soda or similar to adjust their pH up to 7. Adelaide is naturally 7-8 which is why we don't have issues with pipes being eaten away by the water over time.

Instead of testing directly at the bore pump, test from where you will be sourcing your brew water (unless you are going to source it direct at the pump), because if your water is leaching metals from your pipes then your levels will be different (especially if you have copper or steel/Iron pipes with water pH values at 4-5).

EDIT - Melbourne water data for comparison http://www.melbournewater.com.au/waterdata/drinkingwaterqualitydata/Pages/drinking-water-quality.aspx
And here is a site that talks about the health risks of water pH http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water_health/health1/1-alkaline-with-water.htm
And this one that talks about average ground water pH levels (6.5-8.5) and the effects of water pH at levels <6.5 and higher metal ion capacity http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water-education/quality-water-ph-page2.htm


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## RichardLavender (23/1/16)

Hi Jack - Mate you're a hero! Thank you for taking the time to review and respond.
Your info is very valuable.

You wrote: Your pH value is a little acidic though. pH 4-5? Even with your soft water, I'd think that is low. I'd test that one again to make sure of your values. If your pH value is correct then depending on the pipes and tanks you use, your water may be picking up metals from the metal piping or tanks. 

You're not alone in thinking the pH is problematic. Yes the pH, directly from the bore pump gave a reading between 4.o & 5.0. My wife says I'm colour blind. I took the results outside and compared the colour coding in direct sunlight. 

I ran a second pH test at the source where water would be drawn to make a brew. I found the results interesting. The tanks are currently holding a combo ot bore and rainwater. The test gave THE SAME results 4.0 to 5.0 - alkalinity 8.0 - so we're talking about the same results as the original test

I'm assuming 'acidic' will render a metallic taste in the brew? However, with my brew using tank water I boiled the water which should have reduced the metal and bacteria.

Any ways if you have further comments I know that I and others will benefit from your knowledge - thank you


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## Jack of all biers (23/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> You're not alone in thinking the pH is problematic. Yes the pH, directly from the bore pump gave a reading between 4.o & 5.0. My wife says I'm colour blind. I took the results outside and compared the colour coding in direct sunlight.
> 
> I ran a second pH test at the source where water would be drawn to make a brew. I found the results interesting. The tanks are currently holding a combo ot bore and rainwater. The test gave THE SAME results 4.0 to 5.0 - alkalinity 8.0 - so we're talking about the same results as the original test


I'd find a different (more accurate) pH tester to ensure it isn't a faulty pH testing set. This will ensure you can be confident (and more accurate if possible) in what your pH actually is.




RichardLavender said:


> I'm assuming 'acidic' will render a metallic taste in the brew? However, with my brew using tank water I boiled the water which should have reduced the metal and bacteria.
> 
> Any ways if you have further comments I know that I and others will benefit from your knowledge - thank you


No. Acidic water will not necessarily render a metallic taste in the brew. Wort and the fermented beer are acidic and the yeast will tend to balance the pH to their needs anyway. Metallic tastes are typically due to contamination in the brew by high concentrations of metallic ions (taste thresholds are typically 1-1.5mg/L), which is why the fermenting/fermented beer is best kept clear of metals, to stop it leaching them into the beer.

The problem I see with your water (forget the beer for the minute) is that if the pH is as low as 4 or 5, it may be leaching metal from your pipes/fittings/taps/pumps/rain water tanks after it has been pumped there. If any of these are metal or metal lined, then such low pH can leach the metals into the water in the form of metallic ions. This is why I suggest you do all your tests for your metal ions from the tap you will be sourcing the water for your beer. There may be higher concentrations of metals at the end of the system as opposed to the begining (and not only iron or copper depending on the metals used in your water system). 

Boiling can help reduce some metal ions, but not much. I don't know what metals you have in your water system, but if your pH is actually 4-5, I'd suggest you get your water from your house tap professionally tested for heavy metals. Not for your brewing, but for your health/peace of mind.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/1/16)

Is there, locally, any acid sulfate soils around ?


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## Jack of all biers (23/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Is there, locally, any acid sulfate soils around ?


In Queensland. Plenty. For mapping go to. https://data.qld.gov.au/dataset/acid-sulfate-soils-series/resource/19c56625-ae56-470c-b274-43a3b702d4db# If you can't get the mapping to work or live elsewhere in Australia go to https://www.environment.gov.au/water/information/acid-sulfate-soils/about-acid-sulfate-soils

I wouldn't suggest that acid sulfate soil is the OP's problem though, given his initial testing direct from the bore indicated negligible iron content and his area around Cairns is a low risk of acid sulfate occuring (5-70% chance of it occuring) but if my pH was that low, I would get a professional to test it for all the things that can cause problems in humans. Look at Flint in the US. The same pipes used, but different water supply that began leaching lead from their pipes. That is a great example of the affects water chemistry can have on your water system.

There are plenty of other reasons for acidic water other than acid sufate soil. Ancient volcanic areas is one such example that tend to have more acidic water. The Eiffel district in Germany is one such area and they make Bitburger there.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/1/16)

I owned 30 acers that was on acid sulphate soils. All the local bores where acidic


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## Jack of all biers (24/1/16)

Richard,

I did a bit more research on water pH for you. 



RichardLavender said:


> I ran a second pH test at the source where water would be drawn to make a brew. I found the results interesting. The tanks are currently holding a combo ot bore and rainwater. The test gave THE SAME results 4.0 to 5.0 - alkalinity 8.0 - so we're talking about the same results as the original test


When you add pure water to an acidic solution, the solution becomes less acidic and the pH goes up -- to a point. For example, if you add pure water to a relatively acidic solution that has a pH of 3.5, the pH level might go up to a 4 or 5. You cannot, though, turn an acidic solution into a base solution or make it neutral just by adding water. As a result, pure water can only raise the pH of an acidic solution to a maximum of a 6.9.

Now vinegar has a pH of 4 (or there abouts) and distilled water left open to the air disolves CO2 and creates carbonic acid reducing the pH to 6. Vinegar is 100 times more acidic that aerated distilled water. Now given your bore/tank water is showing pH 4-5, it is closer to vinegar and is not a case of being close to distilled water. I use a diluted vinegar solution to clean my copper, which brings it up shiny and new with the copper oxides dissolving into the solution. This means a water with the same pH would also be dissolving metal oxides from metal pipes into the water. So given your water is 10-100 times more acidic that distilled water, some other acid is having an affect.

Now I am just surmising here as your tests don't show what types of chlorides you have in your water, but given you have a higher than normal level of chlorides (500 mg/L), it may have something to do with that. This is because lots of chlorides, such as Magnesium chloride, MgCl2 form acids when dissolved in water. I have no idea what chlorides would naturally be found in the ground near you that would get into your water, but my money would be on the chlorides being the culprit for your lower pH. Sulfates also have negligible effects on lowering pH so it may be a combo. Your 250 mg/L level of sulfates is fine though so I'd be leaning more towards the chlorides.

I found a NSW government paper that states you can drink water at pH 5 with no ill effects, but water with a pH less than 6 indicates corrosiveness, which can lead to damage to metal pipes, tanks and fittings. If you're a farmer the paper is definately worth a read http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/164101/Farm-water-quality-and-treatment.pdf

EDIT - In short, if your water test values are accurate and you have mostly plastic piping, tanks and fittings for your water supply, your bore/tank water will be fine to add to your brews. As I said above, if it were me I'd get the water from the house tap tested by a pro for peace of mind.


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## RichardLavender (24/1/16)

Thanks guys for your information - again my head is spinning and will read over the offered info more than once.

Jack what confuses me is your last comments that the water will be fine to add to your brews but if it were you you'd get the house tap tested.

You also had mentioned health issues that could occur from the water. If there are possible health issues then how can brewing with the water be safe.

The argument amongst the family here is that we've lived here for 17 years and we've not experienced health issues.
The other argument is that the house and piping is 21 years old and there are no signs of damage or faulty piping.

* * *

BTW I don't create the wort I am an extract brewer currently. The only time I have had issue with a poor batch is when I use Dextrose or brewing sugar and house water. All other brews have used Coopers Heritage Lager and Coopers Light Malt Extract with store water & Pride of Ringwood Hops. 

Is it possible that Dextrose and or brewing sugar can cause a funny taste and after taste to the brew? 
If so, then it is possible that the water can be the lesser of the variables for the poor result.

However I have thought seriously about investing in the following system

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251885340002?euid=a645ad970e444280aefb6343b1b548c2&cp=1

Others state I should spend close to a $1000.00 and filter at the tanks to control the health and corrosive piping issues.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

When I had my farm I put a large 1micron filter ( was the 2ft, 4" ) on my tanks at the pump. Was going to put a carbon filter under the sink, but considering neither my kids or myself died, I didnt bother


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## wynnum1 (24/1/16)

Radon gas is another thing to look at .


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## Jack of all biers (24/1/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> EDIT - In short, if your water test values are accurate and you have mostly plastic piping, tanks and fittings for your water supply, your bore/tank water will be fine to add to your brews. As I said above, if it were me I'd get the water from the house tap tested by a pro for peace of mind.


I probably should have underlined the IF & AND parts of the sentence. I can see how I confused. 

The main reason I would get a professional to test it would be for peace of mind due to the vague data and doubt your preliminary test seems to show. A professional water test should be able to give you pH to a decimal point and accurate readings of all heavy metal ions including nasties such as lead, chromium etc.

The main question is how accurate is your testing kit? A pH reading of between 4-5 is not accurate as the difference is 10 fold. It's a good guide, but makes me question how accurate the rest of the testing kit is. This is what makes me think a re-test with a better pH tester may be required. If for example it showed a pH of 6 or higher then I'd be comfortable that your water wouldn't be leaching metals from your system.
What metals can your testing kit test for? IF your pH value is 4 or 5, then you are at risk of picking up amounts of lead from brass fittings for example. Zinc or Alumium are also commonly found in rainwater tanks.
What I meant by being fine for brewing was that IF your low metal readings are accurate AND taken from your tap read the SAME, AND you are happy your testing kit is accurate then it is fine in the brew. I'm talking about the content of the minerals and ions you showed in your data above. The pH of 4 or 5 won't be an issue for brewing (AG or FWK/Kit&Kilo).



RichardLavender said:


> The argument amongst the family here is that we've lived here for 17 years and we've not experienced health issues.
> The other argument is that the house and piping is 21 years old and there are no signs of damage or faulty piping.


21 year old piping is not old at all, but old enough that IF your pH was 4 or 5, I'd expect you would have seen some corrosion staining in sinks, from your washing machine or on the ends of taps. IF there is no staining it would be another thing indicating the inaccuracy of your testing kit.

You still haven't stated what materials you have in your water system? Do you know the all the materials the tanks/piping and fittings are made of?




RichardLavender said:


> BTW I don't create the wort I am an extract brewer currently. The only time I have had issue with a poor batch is when I use Dextrose or brewing sugar and house water. All other brews have used Coopers Heritage Lager and Coopers Light Malt Extract with store water & Pride of Ringwood Hops.
> 
> Is it possible that Dextrose and or brewing sugar can cause a funny taste and after taste to the brew?
> If so, then it is possible that the water can be the lesser of the variables for the poor result.


There are so many variables for the above scenario. In short yes it is possible dextrose or brewing sugar can cause funny taste in the brew far above that of the water added. BUT, you have submitted a question about high Iron and Copper content in your water (you obviously thought this was the case for some reason), but when you did your testing it resulted in low levels. Again you have more of the answers than we do. 

Maybe to rule out the funny taste factor, you should do two brews. One with the Coopers Lager and Malt extract and Pride of Ringwood as per your usual method except use your house water instead of store water. Next do a brew using dextrose or brewing sugar and store water instead of house water. Taste the two brews. You will quickly find the common denominator.




RichardLavender said:


> However I have thought seriously about investing in the following system
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251885340002?euid=a645ad970e444280aefb6343b1b548c2&cp=1
> 
> Others state I should spend close to a $1000.00 and filter at the tanks to control the health and corrosive piping issues.


The linked system appears to reduce bacteria, but won't help with corrosive pH or metal ions in the water. I grew up on rain water, which for most of my life wasn't filtered. When Dad did put in a filter it was only a one similar to what Ducati boy Stu did to his tank.

$1000 filter at the tanks? Prior to the tanks surely as corrosive piping issues are also corrosive tank issues (assuming you have metal tanks?) $1000 is a lot of money to spend when you might not have a problem with corrosiveness. This is another reason to get a professional report on your water. You will have all the facts then and probably some professional advice as to how you can over come any issues if they are infact discovered.


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## RichardLavender (24/1/16)

Radon gas! Great. I wondered why my wife and I glowed in bed at night. Wynnum1 I suspect you're being serious.

No one is ill and guests have never complained from becoming sick from the water I can't imagine that this is going to be an issue now.

My whole agenda was to reduce my cost in brewing by using tank water. This water issue could become a costly venture. A professional water test here in Cairns can cost over $350.00. We are on a limited budget. I contend it's either the water or the use of brewing sugar instead of canned light malt extract that is causing the aftertaste of the brew. As noted before the ONLY time I experience this type of taste is when I have brewed with the tank water and brewing sugar or dextrose.


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## RichardLavender (24/1/16)

Hi Jack - here are some answers and considerations

You wrote:
 A pH reading of between 4-5 is not accurate as the difference is 10 fold. It's a good guide, but makes me question how accurate the rest of the testing kit is.

Or, how good my eyes are at deciphering colour differences. My wife tells me I'm colour blind. To me the pH test looked closer to 5.0 on both tests but was reluctant to commit to the test result and offered the two for consideration. I understand you statement of 10 fold and 10%

You wrote:
What metals can your testing kit test for?

The two metals it tested for was iron and copper - the results reflected 0 for iron and 0.1 for copper - note there was no question of the colour test result - it was clear

You wrote:
I'd expect you would have seen some corrosion staining in sinks or on the ends of taps.

In my above comments I have noted that there are copper stains in the toilet bowls - there is no evidence of corrosion on the water fixtures.


You wrote:

You still haven't stated what materials you have in your water system? Do you know the all the materials the tanks/piping and fittings are made of?

Apologies - the tanks are poly and the piping from the tanks leading into the house system is plastics - I suspect there is copper in the plumbing of the house because the two lines that lead from the floor of the garage where I am having a sink installed are copper.

You wrote:
you have submitted a question about high Iron and Copper content in your water (you obviously thought this was the case for some reason), 

Yes, I did because a local brewer who owns a pool supply and service company stated that he believed that my pH would be high along with high mineral such as copper and iron. His comment opened the discussion and prior to purchasing a test kit.


You wrote:
Maybe to rule out the funny taste factor, you should do two brews. One with the Coopers Lager and Malt extract and Pride of Ringwood as per your usual method except use your house water instead of store water. Next do a brew using dextrose or brewing sugar and store water instead of house water. Taste the two brews. You will quickly find the common denominator.

I agree and will proceed


You wrote:
The linked system appears to reduce bacteria, but won't help with corrosive pH or metal ions in the water. I grew up on rain water, which for most of my life wasn't filtered. 

So the system isn't 100% of what I need - I need to focus on a filter system that can reduce bacteria, pH and metal ions - here I go again reviewing the options.

Thank you again for your willingness to participate in this discussion


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## wynnum1 (24/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> Radon gas! Great. I wondered why my wife and I glowed in bed at night. Wynnum1 I suspect you're being serious.
> 
> No one is ill and guests have never complained from becoming sick from the water I can't imagine that this is going to be an issue now.
> 
> ...


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

Your local council "should" be able to do the test for you, after all it is a public health thing so you may have to push the point.

Rain water is awesome for brewing as it tends to be soft and neutral ( although some say you it gets a bit acidic from carbolic acid formed as the rain falls thru the atmosphere ) and is a great base to work off as you can make it soft or hard depending on what style you want.

I did an English bitter with rainwater and gypsum & epsom salts and you could definitely taste the difference in the beers from when I brewed straight rain water. Had a definite mineral edge top to it.

Just dont use to much of either in your water or you could end up with very runny poo


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

This is what i had on my tank


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## RichardLavender (24/1/16)

The local council does not do drinking water tests. One can 'push' all they want ...it won't make a difference. The Douglas Shire Council supplies the containers that are to be delivered to the Cairns Council labs. The labs have a variety to tests available. The cost of the test that would address ALL of the variables / categories that we've discussed costs $350.00.

The link above supplied for a 'cheaper test' is a lab in the states. That is not an option but thank you for your consideration and suggestion.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

Thats a shame they charge so much.

I know here I have taken in a tank water sample and they just did it. ( was a couple of years back ).


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## Jack of all biers (24/1/16)

Ducatiboy Stu - my dad put on two of those. I think one was a carbon filter the other a sediment filter. With you 100% on using rainwater. The lower pH is similar to distilled water and probably sits at 6.5 to 7. Anyway the level of pH for brewing water is not a significant thing especially for kit and kilo.



RichardLavender said:


> However I have thought seriously about investing in the following system
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251885340002?euid=a645ad970e444280aefb6343b1b548c2&cp=1


If you seriously thought about getting the above system for $340, then why wouldn't you pay the council $350 to give you an accurate result of all the things in your water that you drink. It is a better investment in my opinion as the test results may come back that you don't need to add any filtration at all. If you fork out $350 and you do find that there is something in the water that could harm you then it's an even better investment because then you can make a change. I would look at the local council above the US as the currency conversion fees, postal fees etc start to mount up and at least with the local council you should be able to talk to someone about the results whereas the US does not interpret them for you.




RichardLavender said:


> You wrote:
> What metals can your testing kit test for?
> 
> The two metals it tested for was iron and copper - the results reflected 0 for iron and 0.1 for copper - note there was no question of the colour test result - it was clear
> ...


Missed your copper stains inthe toilet bowls comment sorry. This indicates to me that your pH test is roughly correct. Again for brewing the copper and iron levels are fine. I'm concerned that a low pH water has leached other metals into it that might be of concern for you. I understand that you have been drinking the water for 17 years to no ill effect, but I'll put this to you - people who went out in the sun everyday for years without sun protection had no ill effects until they developed skin cancer - many smokers say the same thing until they develop cancer - Asbestos, need I say more. Some things just creep up on us and those things include heavy metal poisoning. 



RichardLavender said:


> Apologies - the tanks are poly and the piping from the tanks leading into the house system is plastics - I suspect there is copper in the plumbing of the house because the two lines that lead from the floor of the garage where I am having a sink installed are copper.


The poly system is good news in so far as the low pH of your water. You are getting some copper leaching from your pipes though which does indicate maybe your pH test isn't way off. A little bit of copper corrosion is not a worry as long as your tests show it to be under the health guideline limit of 2 mg/L. My house has had copper piping since 1988 when it was redone. This is 20 metres from the meter to the house, plus all the piping within the house and another 20 metres beyond to a garden tap. 28 years and no copper stains in the toilet or anywhere else. This is the difference between pH 7.5-8 (adelaide average) and your lower pH of 4-5.



RichardLavender said:


> Yes, I did because a local brewer who owns a pool supply and service company stated that he believed that my pH would be high along with high mineral such as copper and iron. His comment opened the discussion and prior to purchasing a test kit.


Go back to this guy if you can and pump him for more info on why he believed your pH and mineral content would be high. Given your tests indicate the exact opposite, he may have a lot of anecdotal info that would give you a better picture of water averages in your area.



RichardLavender said:


> You wrote:
> The linked system appears to reduce bacteria, but won't help with corrosive pH or metal ions in the water. I grew up on rain water, which for most of my life wasn't filtered.
> 
> So the system isn't 100% of what I need - I need to focus on a filter system that can reduce bacteria, pH and metal ions - here I go again reviewing the options.
> ...


I think before you get any system to filter anything you need accurate info, hence my above comment about forking out the $350 as an investment. Filtering metal ions will be expensive (see previous comments by Dr Smurto) and you can't change the pH by use of a filter. Adjusting the pH requires chemical addition such as soda ash (sodium carbonate) or similar. This would require a lot of time and thought to do your whole water system just to stop corrosion of some copper pipes.

My final comments on the matter - Rain water fine, bore water test for heavy metals. The heavy metals won't necessarily effect your beer, but they will affect you. If you find they are not there then you probably don't need any filtration system at all given the bacteria has not caused you a bother in 17 years.


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## wobbly (24/1/16)

If you have to/are going to fork out $350 dollars for a water analysis you could post a 600ml sample to these guys http://mpl.com.au/ in Perth and they would do a detailed analysis pH, Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulphate, Bicarbonate, Total Alkalinity, Chloride, Total Hardness Ecolli, Cadmium, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Lead and Nitrate, for $172 and I'm sure that there are similar testing laboratories closer to you that will not charge you the $350 

Once you know your water details and you are still considering the need to "filter/treat" it you could do a lot worse than getting in touch with Peter Howard at PSI Filers http://www.psifilters.com.au/contact-us and get one of these http://www.psifilters.com.au/laundry-wall-mount-reverse-osmosis-systems/10048-psi-020b-lw-3-stage-reverse-osmosis-system-low-waste-1-to-1.html for $230 delivered (It's what I am considering) According to Peter the unit has a very low treated water to waist of 1:1.25 

I have no affiliation just passing on info

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

I would get a proper analysis done before making any decisions. Then work out what you need to do and spend money in

I would use the mob in Wobbly's post. Just looking at what they do tells you a lot.

*MPL Laboratories *provides water testing results for:

Groundwater

Drinking water

Borehole water

Freshwater

Irrigation water

Estuarine and Marine water

Surface water

Bottled water

Saline water

Effluent

Waste water

Landfill leachate

Cooling water

Chelex Bioavailable metals


*Analysis includes:*

Physico-chemical parameters
colour, turbidity, acidity, alkalinity, hardness, pH and conductivity, salinity, suspended and dissolved solids.

Cations
Sodium, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium

Anions
Bromide, Chloride, Fluoride, Nitrate, Nitrite, Phosphate, Sulfate

Nutrients
Total Phosphorus and Ortho-Phosphate, Total Nitrogen, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, Kjeldahl Nitrogen

Trace elements
Arsenic, Cadmium, Chromium, Copper, Mercury, Lead, Nickel, Zinc

Trace organics
TPH, BTEX, VOC, SVOC, PAHs, OC/OP/PCBs, Speciated Phenols, GC/MS scans for unknowns

Aggregate organics
BOD5, COD, oil and grease, surfactants, TOC

Microorganisms
Total plate counts, thermotolerant coliforms, E.coli, algal counts and identification (cyanobacteria), Legionella species and other pathogens (Salmonella).

Chelex Bioavailable Metals
In water quality monitoring for ecosystem protection, or where water quality is affected by the presence of trace metals, the Bioavailability of said metal, not just the concentration of elements in the dissolved phase, can be critical in the assessment of toxicity. For more information refer to: Chelex Bioavailable Metals in natural water.pdf.


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## wobbly (24/1/16)

Here's a link to the Brisbane associate "enviolab" http://envirolab.com.au/brisbane/

Give them a call and see what they can offer you. All it will cost is the price of a phone call.

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

Local business here sell these 4.5" x 20" kits for a reasonable price

https://www.clarencewaterfilters.com.au/product/20-big-blue-high-flow-rate-water-filter-housing/


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## Mr B (24/1/16)

If you are only using RO for brewing, just recirculate the waste back into the tank? It wont be much and considering the dilution volume shouldnt affect the relative levels?


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## wynnum1 (25/1/16)

The water test price in States was to show that water tests do not cost $350 and also with more tests there is a discount so what is the cheapest test in Australia.


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## RichardLavender (25/1/16)

EVERYONE A BIG THANK YOU - so much advice and willingness to be helpful - you guys are great.
While this conversation has been going on I also have had another one of similar degree with a filter company where they suggested the following system - not what it discusses about pH - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-Undersink-Water-Filter-System-Ultraviolet-Light-pH-Neutraliser-/252242135979?hash=item3abacd8bab 

Here is there latest comments about my testing and their concerns ... which are shared by many of you


G'day , yes rain water can also be acidic, and given the tanks are poly then it's quite possible that the pH could remain low from the bore and the rain water.
Given that it's so low, I'm surprised that you are not seeing signs of copper leaching in the house.
This presents it's self as green / blue stains, on or around the water fixtures.
If you are seeing this then we do have a problem to deal with , and if you are not, then you must either not have copper pipes or the test strips are not reading accurately, (check use by dates)

Low pH is caused by Co2 (carbon Dioxide) being absorbed into the water which is what all the fuss is about the green house gasses leaching into the atmosphere.
It's not a difficult thing to fix but we need to confirm if the pH reading are accurate.
Assuming you don't see copper leaching , or you are not concerned about the rest of the house, we could offer you this filter system that has a calcite neutralizer filter to lift the pH back to neutral then through a UV system to take care of the bacteria..
See this link, I believe it may solve your problems, at least for the brewing and drinking water,


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## Jack of all biers (25/1/16)

I agree with Wobbly and co, there is definately cheaper water test pricing within Aus and likely within the Cairns/Nth Qld area.



RichardLavender said:


> While this conversation has been going on I also have had another one of similar degree with a filter company where they suggested the following system - not what it discusses about pH - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-Undersink-Water-Filter-System-Ultraviolet-Light-pH-Neutraliser-/252242135979?hash=item3abacd8bab
> 
> Here is there latest comments about my testing and their concerns ... which are shared by many of you
> 
> ...


Just a word of caution. When someone who is trying to sell you something tells you that Low pH is caused by CO2 being absorbed into the water they are talking about carbonic acid and whilst it is true, it's only partially true for your circumstances. Rain water when it falls from the sky can get as low as pH 5.6 from reaction with CO2 and if under perfect circumstances of perfectly clean colourbond roof, perfectly clean gutters and perfectly clean poly tanks can remain at 5.6 within the tank. Galv roofing, dirt, dust, leaves, exposure to concrete tanks etc allow the water pH to balance out closer to 7 (neutral). Here is another seller of a similar product with info about it http://www.pristinewatersystems.com.au/calcite-filters/ Notice how the information is slanted toward rain water not bore water.

So, whilst true for rain water held in poly tanks, you have the other issue of low pH bore water. The ground water is exposed to all the things in the ground where it has been for countless years. Depending on the make up of the ground the water passes through and sits in depends on the mineral content and pH factors. The acids that are caused in this process can be quite different to Carbonic acid. Also during this exposure under ground the acids allow the pick up of metal ions. The make up of which metals depends on the ground the water has passed through. The water also picks up other minerals and chemicals in this millennia long process until you suck it up out of the ground.

Neutrilizing the pH after the bore water has been tanked and prior to it flowing through your copper pipes will stop the corrosion of the copper pipes in your house, but won't effect what metal ions are already in your bore water. I'd suggest you follow their advice about checking the correctness of your initial pH tests. I'd also reiterate that you talk to the other brewer/swimming pool guy in your area. He may have had many tests done or know of those who have in your local area. They might be able to indicate to you what other things are in the ground water in your area.

You seem like a guy who likes to do his research before making a decision and I commend that (reminds me of me). Many of the guys here have suggested some fairly low price water testing (cheaper than the filters you have considered), the results of which may end with you not buying a filtration system at all. I

Some more info if you do consider further testing:

If money is an issue (Ha, when is it not an issue ) and you're thinking of the do-it-yourself water kits (I know you have already tested with one type), this test kit is specifically for bore water http://www.testkits.com.au/tank-well-bore-water-test-kit/ but it doesn't test for all metals and at $98 you are getting a guide and not accurate results. The same site has a metal test kit for another $38 which tests for most of the concerning metals, but it combines all metals into one result (not helpful really) and doesn't indicate the presence of arsenic (arsenic test costs $280). The do-it-yourself tests, if you bought them all to check everything, would cost you far more than the price your council quotes and you still wouldn't have accurate data to make a decision on. Some of the professional water tests quoted by others are not much more expensive than the bore water test kit alone. Matter for yourself of course. 

A couple of local/accredited water testers you could obtain quotes from to compare prices on:
http://nata.com.au/nata/component/jumi/scopeinfo?key=14197 likely who your Pt Douglas Council go through for their tests.
http://www.measurement.gov.au/Services/FoodTesting/Pages/Drinking-Water.aspx Commonwealth Government tests - Online form or email to obtain a quote
https://www.townsville.qld.gov.au/water-waste-and-environment/water-testing-services - would require the sample to arrive and be processed within 24 hrs (you'll find this a requirement of all accredited water testing to do with reliability of bacteria results).

I couldn't find any independant testers in your local area, but Google or word of mouth may be your friend for further price comparisons. Like in all things though, cheapest or most expensive don't necessarily equal best.


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## RichardLavender (25/1/16)

Thanks Jack - you're a hero

Here is the last comments and suggestion from the water filter 'sales person'. His solution is way outside of our budget and I know the argument is that it is cheaper than replacing all the pipes within the house.

I feel like such a yo yo

Ok , I'm pretty sure the pH will be responsible for most if not all of your problems, given what I've learnt about your situation.
The calcite filter will raise the pH to about 7.2 which would be perfect.
having said that , the pH will probably higher initially until the calcium fines are all dissolved, this could be a few days.
Your wife being itchy after showering would ordinarily be associated with alkaline water rather than acid, but one though may be that the acid water could be removing the oils from the skin leaving the skin dry, have here try some moisturizer after the shower, and let me know what happens.

The calcite filter is basically a sacrificial anode that the acid water takes it's aggression out on before it researched the copper pipes.
The water dissolves small amounts of calcium into the water which raises the pH and stops the water being aggressive on pipes and fixtures.

One thing I do know, is that the pump kicking in and out during the night is an indication of a leak somewhere in the system , so you need to find that as well. Also check the pressure bladder on the pump it's self before looking for more sinister things.

Here's the link to the filter system you need

https://www.filtersystemsaustralia.com/store/index.php/whole-house-calcite-filter-ph-neutralisation.html


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## Jack of all biers (25/1/16)

Hmm. Sorry that your original beer related question has turned into an expensive exercise. I guess the old wifes had it right - A stich in time saves nine. I don't know what your rain water collection/storage capacity is, but if you can get away with it, could you stop using the bore water? (even in the short term?) The pH of the rain water will be a lot higher without the bore water being added and will buy you some 'Money saving time'. The filter your bloke suggested is the same as the site I linked above. See if they are any cheaper? If your *wife is getting itchy from the water*, it may not have anything to do with the pH (or it might too), but *it might have something to do with what else is in the water*. Seriously I know I sound like a broken record here, but *FOR YOUR AND YOUR FAMILIES HEALTH, GET YOUR WATER TESTED BY A PRO*. It MAY make you stop using your bore water for drinking showering etc. It might not, but if you already have a leaking water system (possibly given your pump is working O/T) think not on the one off expenses of water test or pH neutralizers, but think on the expense of re-piping your house plumbing and changing your pumps because the metal parts are eaten away. That expense goes way beyond the $1000-$1500 a test and pH neutalizer combo will cost you.

EDIT - Spelling and grammar (I'm on my second Bock for the night :chug:


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## RichardLavender (26/1/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> Hmm. Sorry that your original beer related question has turned into an expensive exercise. I guess the old wifes had it right - A stich in time saves nine. I don't know what your rain water collection/storage capacity is, but if you can get away with it, could you stop using the bore water? (even in the short term?) The pH of the rain water will be a lot higher without the bore water being added and will buy you some 'Money saving time'. The filter your bloke suggested is the same as the site I linked above. See if they are any cheaper? If your *wife is getting itchy from the water*, it may not have anything to do with the pH (or it might too), but *it might have something to do with what else is in the water*. Seriously I know I sound like a broken record here, but *FOR YOUR AND YOUR FAMILIES HEALTH, GET YOUR WATER TESTED BY A PRO*. It MAY make you stop using your bore water for drinking showering etc. It might not, but if you already have a leaking water system (possibly given your pump is working O/T) think not on the one off expenses of water test or pH neutralizers, but think on the expense of re-piping your house plumbing and changing your pumps because the metal parts are eaten away. That expense goes way beyond the $1000-$1500 a test and pH neutalizer combo will cost you.
> 
> EDIT - Spelling and grammar (I'm on my second Bock for the night :chug:
> 
> ...


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## wynnum1 (26/1/16)

You need more rain water storage the big tank is too big to act as prime source for water a smaller tank can be emptied and when rains fresh rain water or if no rain treat and filter the water from big tank into the smaller tank.The pool shop is the best bet when a pool is let go they clean it up and make safe. .


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## RichardLavender (26/1/16)

We have two 15k ltr tanks 

The pool company was to have a pH test done - if I'm not mistake regardless that the water sample came from the pool or the tap the pH can be tested and render a result


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/1/16)

I had 2 x 20,000lt and 1 x 30,000ltr all linked together with taps so I could switch over easly.


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## Lager Bloke (26/1/16)

Hi Richard,don't know if you have already been in contact with them -try rural pump/irrigation businesses in the area.May be a cheaper option for the test cost and also another source of info on water in the area.Rob.


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## RichardLavender (26/1/16)

Hi Rob - Yes a company in Craiglie - they send the test samples to the same lab in Cairns and add an additional 15% for the service.

Thanks for the idea anyways.


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## Jack of all biers (26/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> *Plus, as noted in these posts - currently the tank water is 100% rain - especially after last night's downpour - and the water from the tanks and the bore are rendering the same pH reading. 4.0 or 5.0 depending on my eyesight and colour distinction - sorry my wife says I'm colour blind.*


Re the Rain water only.
Do you have a lot of trees around your gutters? Any pine trees? pH as low as 4 or 5 is in the acid rain bracket. If it was 5 then maybe you have a build up of organic material in the tanks which break down and produce acids (citric acid being one). Pine needles are especially acidic. A tank clean should reduce this problem (if it exists).

You could add calcium carbonate or sodium carbonate direct to your tanks that will react with the acids bringing the pH up. This is a short term solution in that if you get the 'dose' right for the full tanks, you will have to repeat periodically as the pH lowers again due to refilling from rains. Adding sodium carbonate has it's own compounding problems over time though due to an increase in sodium content in the water. With calcium carbonate you will notice small amounts of lime scale and if you overdo it large amounts of lime scale.

Calcite is a pure form of calcium carbonate so the pH stabilizer you looked at would do the same thing. Calcium carbonate should be easy enough to acquire from a chemical supply company.

Let us know how your brews go.


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## wynnum1 (26/1/16)

Ask this mob for a quote they have no prices on Internet but seem to be every where.


_Eurofins_ Environment Testing Australia Pty Ltd


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## RichardLavender (26/1/16)

Yes there are trees around the tanks as well as around the house. Poincianas are all around the tanks. Gum trees are nearer to the gutters of the house. I make an effort to keep the tank screens clean (small openings at the top of the tanks). Leaf debris does build up in the gutters but I keep that clean once every two to three months. And, with that written the build up is a small area where the build up seems more congested than other parts of the roof. I would say that the gutters are alway 85% clear of leaves.


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## RichardLavender (27/1/16)

The best $5.00 I've ever spent.

Here are the test results from the pool company who has computerised water testing software.

Total Alkalinity = 96
pH = 6.5
Calcium Hardness = 185
Phosphate = 0.1
Iron = 0.3
Copper = 0.1
Salts = 80 *

* Note our property is located on the land side of the ocean. It has been raining for the past few days (monsoonal downpours)

The above results are pretty damn close to being accurate. Whereas the below test results are from the drinking water kit I purchased. The most important deviation between the test results is the pH reading.

Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 8.0
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0

If you're willing I look forward to your observations, suggestions and comments - THANK YOU!

BTW - put together two brews yesterday with the same kit ingredients with the only difference is the water. Something tells me that there will very little difference in taste. The other conclusion I'm hoping to achieve is to NEVER use Dextrose or Brewing Sugar and always use a 'canned' light malt extract (liquid). I also hopped the brew with 20 grms of fresh Galaxy flowers - mmmmmmmmmm smells sooooo good - I might do a 'dry hop' two days before bottling.


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## drsmurto (27/1/16)

Salt is a generic term which describes a large number of ionic compounds with a metal cation and an anion, often inorganic (chloride, sulfate etc). It does not necessarily mean table salt (sodium chloride).

Can you get the pool company to give you a calcium level by itself in ppm rather than calcium hardness which is a total value including carbonates?

I'd also be asking for a sodium level given you have such high levels of chloride and sulfate, there is a cation/cations not being accounted for in these readings.

A $5 test? How are they testing it? What is the instrument they are using?

At the moment those numbers aren't overly helpful in working out your base water profile.

At a minimum I'd want to see calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and carbonate as individual components with units (mg/L aka ppm).


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## RichardLavender (27/1/16)

Thanks for that - The test is performed on a device where they place the water in a circular device that is placed inside a machine that seems to spin it and renders a printout - it's a lot better than the test strips.

The report that is offered and the categories is all that there is. What you're suggesting has to be done in Cairns and costs $350.00


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## drsmurto (27/1/16)

$350? FFS. How can anyone justify charging that. I get samples analysed routinely for work and we pay $45 for several times more information than you are asking for at limits of detection in ug/L not mg/L. 

Get in touch with these people - http://www.csiro.au/en/Do-business/Services/Testing-and-technical-services/Agro-Enviro/Analytical-services-unit

Based in Adelaide here on the Waite campus of the University of Adelaide. They will need <50mL so postage won't be too bad (~$10).

My lab is across the road from them and i deal with them regularly, great people. Let them know you want the details i listed above (calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and carbonate). I wouldn't worry about pH, just get the mineral salt analysis done. If you want pH I can run that in my lab, no cost, just post it to me. I'm yet to see pH papers or handheld pH meters more accurate than dunking a finger in a tasting it.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s I'm assuming i don't get some sort of academic deal so please check the prices with them first.


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## RichardLavender (27/1/16)

Hi DrSmurto - thanks for your interest and suggestions/reactions - yes the cost is shocking. Turns out there is a CSIRO in Cairns and tomorrow morning I will call them and see if they can assist - They are a part of the James Cook University.


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## RichardLavender (27/1/16)

Thought I'd post the comment from the sales rep stating that we need to install a calcite filter on the tanks - only $1000.00

G'day , I didn't elaborate earlier that you need to check the pH on site.
pH is super sensitive to change, once you take the sample away from the main body of water the pH will begin to slowly rise.
A lot would depend on the time between taking the sample and when it was tested.
It's good enough to confirm yu do have a pH issue and that's all you realy need to know at this point.
An educated guess would put your real pH (onsite at about 6 pH I would think.
It realy doesn't matter unless we found it was lower than 5 which would change how we would approach the solution.
Right now nothing changes, the calcite filter is what's required either for drinking water only or for all of house, the call is back in your court I guess

He had previously written:

Ok , I'm pretty sure the pH will be responsible for most if not all of your problems, given what I've learnt about your situation.
The calcite filter will raise the pH to about 7.2 which would be perfect.
having said that , the pH will probably higher initially until the calcium fines are all dissolved, this could be a few days.
Your wife being itchy after showering would ordinarily be associated with alkaline water rather than acid, but one though may be that the acid water could be removing the oils from the skin leaving the skin dry, have here try some moisturizer after the shower, and let me know what happens.

The calcite filter is basically a sacrificial anode that the acid water takes it's aggression out on before it researched the copper pipes.
The water dissolves small amounts of calcium into the water which raises the pH and stops the water being aggressive on pipes and fixtures.

One thing I do know, is that the pump kicking in and out during the night is an indication of a leak somewhere in the system , so you need to find that as well. Also check the pressure bladder on the pump it's self before looking for more sinister things.

Here's the link to the filter system you need

https://www.filtersystemsaustralia.com/store/index.php/whole-house-calcite-filter-ph-neutralisation.html


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## Jack of all biers (27/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> Here are the test results from the pool company who has computerised water testing software.
> 
> Total Alkalinity = 96
> pH = 6.5
> ...


From which water source did the pool guys results come from? You stated that your intial results from the test kit were taken direct from the bore pump and that your tanks are 100% rain water at the moment. Just making sure you are compairing apples with apples and not oranges before you throw your test kit away (which I whole heartedly encourage you to do)

EDIT - The most important deviation is not only the difference in pH, but the Alkalinity and Hardness levels are quite different too. The Alkalinity and hardness suggest water of a reasonable hardness. It's within the 60 - 200 mg/L range which fits within the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines category of 'good quality', which really means water that won't eat your pipes. For all grain brewing 185 mg/L of CaCO3 is hard, but given you are kit and kilo brewing the hardness at this level won't be a disadvantage. Even if you later decide to, it can be easily adjusted depending on the brews needs. Dr Smurto's right though a thorough analysis would be better as there is a lot more that can be gleened, such as sodium content, metal contents etc.


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## Jack of all biers (27/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> Thought I'd post the comment from the sales rep stating that we need to install a calcite filter on the tanks - only $1000.00
> 
> G'day , I didn't elaborate earlier that you need to check the pH on site.
> pH is super sensitive to change, *once you take the sample away from the main body of water the pH will begin to slowly rise*.
> ...


WTF. Surely this is a questionable sales technique. It would have to be a fairly comtaminated test vessel to raise the pH by a magnitude of 5. Exposure to CO2 might reduce the pH, but to raise it would require some doing. Dr Smurto is this even remotely possible or pure B.S. to get $1000 sale.

Richard, if your pH is 6.5 you really don't have to worry about corrosion in your pipes. That pH is well within accepted guidelines from the US to Australia for municipal water supplies. Again if your bore water is lower and you plan on running this through your pipes - different story.

EDIT - I made the assumption that the pH of 6.5 was from your rain water tanks in my last sentence.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/1/16)

I was also going to say WTF about the pH changing

From my days at school doing science I was of the assumption that you need to "do" or "add" something to the water to change its pH, unless there are chemicals in there that are causing a slow chemical reaction you water should not change its pH


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## Rosscoe (27/1/16)

I'm not 100% on top of water chemistry, but my basic observations over the years of living in the bush are as follows. Bore water is usually crap. Where I used to live, the iron content was so high, when you washed your cricket whites, they'd turn orange if you didn't use bleach. Not great for your beer either just quietly.

Rain water is usually very soft (unless you've got a dead possum in your tank) however this is much easier to work with as you can add ph stabiliser, gypsum, etc... from there to get to what you want for beer making. My two cents is to buy a decent carbon filter from Reece, stick it on your rain water tank or under your sink and be confident you've got a good base for your beer/coffee. After all, that's all it's good for right?


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

*Jack - you're right agai*n. I took the test water from the kitchen sink tap after running the water for a considerable time. The original test water sample was from the tap directly next to the bore pump. 

Interesting your observations are that the water is not inclined to 'eat the pipes' whereas the sales rep insists we've go a real problem.

This is all very frustrating. 

I'll be calling CSIRO this morning in a half hour.


*Thanks Rosscoe & Stu for your comments*


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## drsmurto (28/1/16)

pH rising after sampling? 

We run a commercial analytical laboratory in addition to our research and we get samples from all over the country for analysis, pH is just one of the 100s of things we can analysis for. That's certainly not the advice we give our clients nor has it ever been my experience to see pH change in samples over time by enough to even bother reporting (we measure pH to 2 decimal places).

You are being hit hard with a sales pitch. You don't need a calcite filter to get good drinking water particularly if you have access to rainwater. Like many who have commented already in this thread, i grew up on unfiltered rainwater. I bought a house in the Adelaide Hills 10 years ago and immediately added another rainwater tank and had them plumbed to the house. An underbench filter system (sediment/carbon) was added to, partly to filter out the chloramine/chlorine in Adelaide tap water as we run out of rainwater mid summer, but also to remove the smokiness from the rainwater in winter due to ours and all the neighbours, slow combusiton heaters. For brewing I use the rainwater unfiltered although I am currently setting up the brewery to have it's own kitchen plumbed in with an inline filter more to remove any sediment that does build up on the elements in the HLT.

A universal 2 stage filter system is almost overkill but allows you to change the filters when you want to. I bought a box of 20 filters (10 sediment, 10 carbon) for $120 late last year. Will last 5 years. 

I use rainwater exclusively for brewing but i have had my water tested a few times for the minerals i listed earlier so i know my water is <0.1 ppm in all the relevant brewing salts. It has some zinc due to the galv roof but not enough to affect the taste. 

That all said, until you can provide a good analysis of the water, particularly the bore water with it's likely high content of iron, copper and sodium, I'd be sticking to rainwater. The often used phrase, if you can drink it, you can brew with it is not too bad although some people can drink VB......


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

Just called CSIRO and they do not do water testing here in Cairns. They had me speak with National Association of Testing and they referred me to the lab in Cairns that wants to charge $350.00

It was suggested that I send a 50ml sample to the west coast of AU - I have been told that the samples need to be received within 24 hours of sampling.
From experience the freight and postal service in AU do not understand overnight delivery - even if you pay for it. By the time the sample arrives the test water will be too old for testing.

I'm going in circles and will be taking donations for water testing - kidding


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## drsmurto (28/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> Just called CSIRO and they do not do water testing here in Cairns. They had me speak with National Association of Testing and they referred me to the lab in Cairns that wants to charge $350.00
> 
> It was suggested that I send a 50ml sample to the west coast of AU - I have been told that the samples need to be received within 24 hours of sampling.
> From experience the freight and postal service in AU do not understand overnight delivery - even if you pay for it. By the time the sample arrives the test water will be too old for testing.
> ...


Give the Adelaide lab a call and ask them for prices. Don't worry about the time taken to send it to them, sometimes analytical chemists can be a little anal......


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

Thanks Dr for the words of wisdom - much appreciated. As noted above I am currently brewing two batches of Aussie Pale Ale. The only difference between the two is the use of water. In one batch I'm using store bought water and the other kitchen tap water boiled reaching a bubble and then cooled. Right now both are fermenting and my brew room smells delicious. I hopped it with fresh flower galaxy.


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

ENDLESS

I just called CSIRO and they tell me they do not do water testing. The transferred me to the Waite Campus to gain a recommendation for water testing. 

I have left my details for them to return my call.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/1/16)

DrSmurto said:


> , but also to remove the smokiness from the rainwater in winter due to ours and all the neighbours, slow combusiton heaters.


Rauchbier :icon_drool2:


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

Waite Campus just called and referred me to www.awqc.com.au who tell me a test will cost $236.00 and that test isn't a complete test.

No wonder these test strip kits are selling.

I'm going back to the pool company and take a water sample directly from the bore tap. While this test isn't perfect at least that way will have a more accurate pH reading and other related results - not specifically defined but seems to offer some insight. We know that bore water has minerals and we know that the pool company test does define Iron and Copper.

Seems like a carbon filter, and particle filters under the sink might be the conclusion of this discussion. And if the phosphate is 0 then the bacteria level is not in question. 

Last night it poured and I should have put out my water collectors to fill. Of course as indicated above rainwater comes with another level of variables.


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## drsmurto (28/1/16)

That's odd, i give them samples to analyse, many of which are water based.

What number did you call? I'll send you a PM with the number i use. 

I suspect there is a breakdown in communication in what you are asking for and what they think you want. The minute you ask for 'water analysis' they will think you want bacteria levels, dissolved organics, total dissolved solids etc in addition to the things I have suggested you ask for. A carbon filter will remove all these things so analysing for them is a moot point. What you want is for only the following elements/ions to be analysed for - iron, copper, calcium, sodium, chloride, and sulfate. I suspect the carbonate may be the one they can't analyse for easily and is not something i analyse for either. I know they analyse for all of these in water samples because they do so for me. The pH of your water is also largely irrelevant, particularly for someone who is not (yet) brewing with grain. Remove these from your request and you should be ok. You only need the iron and copper analysed if you are using bore water, there won't be enough in mains water or rainwater for there to be a problem assuming you aren't using a rusty galv tank to store the water?


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

The number I called at CSIRO is +61 8 8303 8800

I told CSIRO that I was looking for a water testing from my tanks that covered the minerals and metals. I was told they no longer do that type of testing and referred me to the Waite Uni who referred me to awqc.com.au who referred on - one BIG CIRCLE.

I've tried to copy the Analysis Drinking water costing PDF and paste it here unsuccessfully. Here is a transcribed version:
[SIZE=15.008px]Colour, electrical conductance, hardness, pH, TDS, turbidity, chloride, sulphate, fluoride, sillca - reactive, calcium, magnesium, potasssium, sodium, filtration, aluminum, iron, manganese, copper, arsenic, cadmium, lead, digestion, E coli.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=15.008px]All this costs $339.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=15.008px]I just returned from the pool company who ran a test for me of my bore water sample taken directly from the tap by the bore pump. Line was flushed for a considerable amount of time. Here are the results:[/SIZE]

Total Alkalinity = 38
pH = 6.4
Calcium Hardness = 7
Phosphate = 0.1
Iron = 0.2
Copper = 0

Salts = 100

Here are the results from the water sample taken from the tanks which is predominantly holding rain water right now.

Total Alkalinity = 96
pH = 6.5
Calcium Hardness = 185
Phosphate = 0.1
Iron = 0.3
Copper = 0.1
Salts = 80


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## RichardLavender (28/1/16)

DrSmurto had asked for results that the pool test did not supply.
Previously I had done a test using a kit that offered results that you are looking for. 

Here are the results:
Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 80
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0

I have a second test without the pH that I am willing to do a second test ... it it will help in making a decision if I need to purchase a under sink filtration system.


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## drsmurto (28/1/16)

PM sent.


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## drsmurto (28/1/16)

RichardLavender said:


> The number I called at CSIRO is +61 8 8303 8800
> 
> I told CSIRO that I was looking for a water testing from my tanks that covered the minerals and metals. I was told they no longer do that type of testing and referred me to the Waite Uni who referred me to awqc.com.au who referred on - one BIG CIRCLE.
> 
> ...


Therein lies the issue - [SIZE=15.008px]Colour, electrical conductance, hardness, pH, TDS, turbidity, chloride, sulphate, fluoride, sillca - reactive, calcium, magnesium, potasssium, sodium, filtration, aluminum, iron, manganese, copper, arsenic, cadmium, lead, digestion, E coli. To get all these results require several different instruments which is why I was suggesting a smaller number that are directly useful in brewing. The rest are not and most can be removed with a simple carbon filtration unit anyway. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=15.008px]The ones i suggested ([/SIZE]iron, copper, calcium, sodium, chloride, and sulfate) [SIZE=15.008px]can be done with 2 instruments. Even if you added zince and magnesium to this you will still be charged the same.[/SIZE]


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## Jack of all biers (28/1/16)

Richard,

I think you can forget the results from your strip test kit all together. You can definately throw out the kit too. I think its safe to say that it has been fairly well proven to be completely unreliable. The alkalinity, hardness and pH were way off. I think you can say that all the other results from that initial kit test you did can be forgotten. Now that's not to say the pool guys results are 100%, but I think its safe to rely on them as a good enough guide.

So, that being said, I completely change my tune about your bore water (to a certain extent). Whilst Dr Smurto is advising to have certain things tested, he is really coming from an all grain brewing perspective I think. There's nothing wrong with that, but you have stated you are only interested in kit&kilo or extract brewing at this stage. My main concern for your water was the initial results of your kit test. I think you can now ignore those concerns (my specific concern was the low pH and the high chance that such low pH ground water could leach heavy metals and other nasties into it, as well as the effect it would have on your metal piping). This concern is alleviated a great deal by the pool guys readings of your bore water pH that are HOPEFULLY reliable enough. I think this reliability is born out in the Iron level of 0.2 mg/L. A really low pH would generally have a higher Iron content so I'd be happy that the pool guys pH result is roughly right (or at least not in the 4-5 range).

IF the metal content for copper (0mg/L) and iron (0.2 mg/L) are accurate you SHOULD be ok. The reason I highlight should is that the iron is close to the maximum for the NHMRC aesthetic value (0.3 mg/L), which means it might be visible (discolouration left on clothing washed with the water) or have an iron taste beyond this level. This is easy to test. Taste the water, if you have an iron taste or that blood nose odour in your nose then it may affect the flavour of your beers. If you can't detect this, then it's unlikely you will taste it in your beer.

Now as I and others have said the pH won't affect your brewing to any great extent (for those that groan at this remember he is extract brewing and only adding the water to his kit) so given that both your bore water and rain water are 6.4 and 6.5 respectively I suggest you can rest easy about your copper pipes. The range between 6.5 & 8.5 is the recommended pH for municipal water. If you really wanted to push the pH up to 7 or higher in order to absolutely over-the-top ensure nil copper was leached from your pipes, you could add some calcium carbonate or even cheaper, bicarbonate of soda. Bicarbonate of soda does add sodium to your water (given you live close to the sea I'd keep this down) and calcium carbonate does increase the hardness levels in your already "up-there" rain water. The amounts we are talking about are tiny. For Calcium carbonate it would be something close to 0.02 gm/L to bring it from 6.5 up to 7.5 or similar, that is 300 gm per 15,000L tank. In regards to the condition of your copper pipes, I honestly think the pH at 6.4 is not worth worrying about though (especially considering the buffering effect of the hardness in your rain water). I'm not advocating adding anything to your water at this stage, only giving you the info incase you are keen or the tanks empty of rain water and you want to harden up the softer bore water (to prevent pipe corosion).

The way I read it, after 17 years of drinking the stuff, you aren't worried about high levels of nasty bacteria in your water right? And given many things can kill bacteria (boiling, alcohol, etc) they can easily be overcome. I am pretty sure the reason the water testing facilities want your sample within 24 hours is because of the E Coli and other bacteria testing they do. I think after 24 hours the results can't be considered reliable, because of natural die off or breeding of the bacteria, which can effect the levels giving false results. So, if you aren't worried about the bacteria in the water then you can ignore that 24 hour requirement.

So in saying all of that, would I still get the bore water tested. Yes I would and despite the cost (although keep shopping around for a better price). 
Maybe it's because I'm paranoid about water that has been sitting in the ground and the lack of knowledge about the make up of that ground. If I had the choice I would get it tested for hardness, pH, chloride, sulphate, calcium, magnesium, potasssium, sodium, iron, manganese, copper, arsenic, cadmium, lead and see if they could test for chromium. My thinking behind having so many tested is less for the brewing or corroding pipe side of things, but for the health implications of any of the heavy metals or sulphate being above maximum levels recommended for health safety. See NHMRC guidelines for maximums https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/eh33


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## RichardLavender (29/1/16)

First - A HUGE THANK YOU TO Jack for his response. Mate that must have taken some time to compose - thank you. 

I contacted the Cairns Lab and asked for them to cost a specific test - they responded with 

The ICPMS is for the testing of Copper, Iron and Zinc ; the ICPOES is for the testing of Calcium, Sodium and Magnesium. $149.00


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/1/16)

I would just spend the $$ and get it tested for everything in a proper lab (except bacteria as you know that that is not really an issue)

Bores dont generally change much over time if drawing from the same level in an aquifer. So unless something drastic happens the proper test result readings should last for quite a few years

If you find that the water table drops you might see a change in the water quality.


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