# S-189 finally being rolled out in 11.5g packs



## Goose (4/11/15)

Been waiting for this for a long time.

Lets see how long it takes for retailers in our nether region to stock up...


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## fishingbrad (4/11/15)

yes, yes, **** yes.


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## technobabble66 (4/11/15)

Hellalujah!!

I've been really happy with how my first 2 lagers turned out using a loose bag of dry S-189, fermented at ~16°C.
I'll be definitely doing another next winter. And once you've done 1, well, it'd be silly to waste that lovely yeast cake sitting at the bottom...
It'll be great to have some nice, sealed sachets to keep in the fridge until i get a chance to start up the Lager Train. 
In fact, i'd be tempted to swap a few APA & IPA recipes over to S-189.

Edit: i notice the fermentation range is the same, but the ideal range is now much higher: 15-20°C. Very interesting.


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## Goose (4/11/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Edit: i notice the fermentation range is the same, but the ideal range is now much higher: 15-20°C. Very interesting.



Not just that. Notice the manufacturer's advised pitching method....


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## GalBrew (4/11/15)

Now go and read the real instructions off the s-189 spec sheet on the fermentis website.


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## Goose (5/11/15)

GalBrew said:


> Now go and read the real instructions off the s-189 spec sheet on the fermentis website.


Ah no sense of humour


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## GalBrew (5/11/15)

Goose said:


> Ah no sense of humour


Sorry, I've been scarred by previous threads.... :lol:


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## HBHB (5/11/15)

still 2-3 months away


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## Yob (5/11/15)

Goose said:


> Not just that. Notice the manufacturer's advised pitching method....


I noted that the latest (that I took notice of) US-05 has "Sprinkle onto wort" on the package itself...

enter stu...


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## technobabble66 (5/11/15)

Actually, it says (s-189): "Sprinkle *into* wort." 

Now that throws a spanner into the theories! Rehydrate, sprinkle onto wort, or sprinkle into wort. 

Now what?!?? Oh the humanity!

How does one sprinkle into wort? Quick, we need 50 pages on this, stat!

Whatever it is, it must be important - the manufacturer wouldn't have put it on the label otherwise...

Wow, I feel sorry for all those people who have foolishly been merely sprinkling *onto* the wort.


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## Bribie G (5/11/15)

I notice they don't mention stirring.

And what if your wort is covered with a layer of tight foam, as it often is following a cube being poured into the fermentor from a height to oxygenate the wort.

The instructions don't seem to cover sprinkling onto foam.

Maybe you could part the foam with a sterile spoon and sprinkle onto the wort, then stir _into _the wort?

Another way, I guess, would be to rehydrate the yeast in some warm water. That would definitely get _into _the wort.

Has anyone ever tried that method?


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## Yob (5/11/15)

this one time at bandcamp.. Stu did..


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## DJ_L3ThAL (5/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> I notice they don't mention stirring.
> 
> And what if your wort is covered with a layer of tight foam, as it often is following a cube being poured into the fermentor from a height to oxygenate the wort.
> 
> The instructions don't seem to cover sprinkling onto foam.


In this case you must sprinkle untowort.

Thank you, I'll be here all week.


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## Eagleburger (5/11/15)

the sprinkled yeast does a good job of popping foam bubbles. Then you could sprinkle onto wort.


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## Goose (5/11/15)

HBHB said:


> still 2-3 months away


seems a bit long ?. It seems already available in European homebrew shops unless you refer to lead time to get it ordered and shipped from Fermentis... 

https://homebrewshop.be/en/yeast-fermentis/927-fermentis-saflager-s-189-115-g.html?search_query=s-189&results=3


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## technobabble66 (5/11/15)

In all seriousness, why the hell does the packet say *ideally* 15-20*c and then the spec sheet/pdf say ideally 12-15*c. 
WTF?!

Surely someone would've checked these before printing, etc!


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## NikZak (5/11/15)

Goose said:


> seems a bit long ?. It seems already available in European homebrew shops unless you refer to lead time to get it ordered and shipped from Fermentis...
> 
> https://homebrewshop.be/en/yeast-fermentis/927-fermentis-saflager-s-189-115-g.html?search_query=s-189&results=3


Keg King seems to have it already according to their website

http://kegking.com.au/yeast/fermentis/saflager-s-189-15g.html

that being said, last time I got Fermentis yeast from KK it was repackaged, presumably from a 500g brick


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## Goose (5/11/15)

though this looks like repackaged product from break bulking the 500 g bricks rather than the Fermentis packed 11.5g product. Craftbrewer does the same thing.


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## GalBrew (5/11/15)

Goose said:


> though this looks like repackaged product from break bulking the 500 g bricks rather than the Fermentis packed 11.5g product. Craftbrewer does the same thing.


Yeah, I never understand the logic behind the two totally different instructions (pack & spec sheet) that you get with Fermentis yeast (I know which one I ignore). :unsure:


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/11/15)

Yob said:


> this one time at bandcamp.. Stu did..


Jeezuz Yob.. fa christ sake, come up with something better than that...your sounding like Dicko & WEAL...


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## Spohaw (5/11/15)

I thought it was funny as haha

I've been waiting all day for you to come in and start something 

Total let down


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/11/15)

Yeah...Sorry about that. Boys need to get a bit more creative


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## Dave70 (5/11/15)

technobabble66 said:


> How does one sprinkle into wort?


No go forth and sprinkle, _sprinkle!_


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/11/15)

Indeed


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## jlm (5/11/15)

Great yeast. Will be good to have it on the shelf at the local to brew without considering fly in times when schwartzbier craving hits.


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## RobB (5/11/15)

technobabble66 said:


> In fact, i'd be tempted to swap a few APA & IPA recipes over to S-189.


I have done this a couple of times with APAs and it has worked really well.


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## Black Devil Dog (5/11/15)

My default lager yeast. Unbroken from the manufacturer is definitely a good thing.


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## Goose (5/11/15)

Malty Cultural said:


> I have done this a couple of times with APAs and it has worked really well.


fully. somebody here made the suggestion to make an IPL on the cake of the previous lager brewed with S-189. Was a great idea, worked a treat.


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## Adr_0 (6/11/15)

Cool. So from what I read this would be pretty sweet for a dunkel? It's been too long...


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## HBHB (6/11/15)

Goose said:


> seems a bit long ?. It seems already available in European homebrew shops unless you refer to lead time to get it ordered and shipped from Fermentis...
> 
> https://homebrewshop.be/en/yeast-fermentis/927-fermentis-saflager-s-189-115-g.html?search_query=s-189&results=3


Info from the importer. Who knows, but time will tell.


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## pcmfisher (6/11/15)

technobabble66 said:


> In all seriousness, why the hell does the packet say *ideally* 15-20*c and then the spec sheet/pdf say ideally 12-15*c.
> WTF?!
> 
> Surely someone would've checked these before printing, etc!


Maybe it doesn't matter. h34r:


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## technobabble66 (7/11/15)

So don't print it!
Or just keep it general, like, 12-20°C
Just seems bizarre


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## pist (9/11/15)

This will no doubt start another round of flaming...but here we go.

I never rehydrate. No point. Have done both and don't notice any difference what so ever.
Not even with dry lager yeasts, you just have to pitch the right amount.


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## Killer Brew (9/11/15)

So.... I did a search to find out the optimum ferment temp for this yeast as I haven't used it before but looks interesting . Seems it has been a source of some animated discussion previously! 

I now have some on the way to try in a Euro Lager. I have temp control so can do any temp within the range Fermentis recommend. What do others think is the optimum for the given style and what differences could I expect between ferments at either end of the temp scale?


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## pist (9/11/15)

I have had very good results at 10-12oC. Leaves a very clean, crisp beer at the end. Pitch the right amount (you'll need 2 12g packets for a 23L batch) and aerate properly and you won't have much issue with sulphur odours/flavour like alot of other strains either. Great yeast.

At the other end of the scale, I'd be expecting a heap more sulphur to be thrown being a lager strain, as the yeast MAY become stressed


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## pist (9/11/15)

Just to be a bit more specific to set you on a path that's acceptable, I use the following fermentation schedule, it seems to work well for me.

First week is primary fermentation, 10-12oC.

Second week, take gravity reading. If it's at 1.020 or less, set the temp controller to 16oC and let it go up as far as it wants for a diacetyl rest. This is necessary when doing a lager yeast. Raising the temp basically makes the yeast process any diacetyl/other compounds that may be present from the cold fermentation.

Third and fourth week I just lager in primary at around 2oC, then transfer to keg.


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## Killer Brew (3/12/15)

I whacked some of this yeast in my Euro Lager nearly 3 weeks ago. Fermented originally at 13C for 5 days before lifting to 20C for a week (fast lager method). It has now been cold crashed at 1C for nearly a week with whirlfloc added after day 2. Sample tasting very nice however it is surprisingly cloudy still given it is designated as highly flocculent. I will get some finings tomorrow and see if it will drop out but was interested to know if others have experienced the same?


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## Dozer71 (3/12/15)

Killer Brew said:


> with whirlfloc added after day 2.


Isn't whirlfloc added to the boil with 10mins to go? As such it wouldn't do much being added after day 2. Gelatine can be added just before cold crashing to clear though.


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## Killer Brew (3/12/15)

Dozer71 said:


> Isn't whirlfloc added to the boil with 10mins to go? As such it wouldn't do much being added after day 2. Gelatine can be added just before cold crashing to clear though.



Sorry, polyclar not whirlfloc. Scrambled brain at the moment courtesy of a colicky 5 week old.


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## mckenry (4/12/15)

pist said:


> This will no doubt start another round of flaming...but here we go.
> 
> I never rehydrate. No point. Have done both and don't notice any difference what so ever.
> Not even with dry lager yeasts, you just have to pitch the right amount.


There is always discussion on this. Reading the fermentis spec sheet, you only need to aerate if you DONT rehydrate. Someone put me straight on here about this ages ago. I'd been using liquid and O2 for years, then used a dry and O2, which lagged badly, which brought up a similar discussion to this.
Below is a copy of their instructions on the spec sheet**

Having said that, I've been giving M10 workhorse a crack lately and have been hitting expected FG with the correct pitch rate, rehydrated and no O2 or any attempt to aerate.
So, I assume, as many like to aerate by pouring from a height, that you could sprinkle (if you can get it into (onto) the wort). Why not just rehydrate and not bother with aerating or oxygenating?

_**REHYDRATION INSTRUCTIONS: Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 23°C ± 3°C (73°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel. *Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly *in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, *then mix the wort using aeration* or by wort addition._


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## DJ_L3ThAL (4/12/15)

It could be interpreted the final step there of waiting 30minutes and mixing in by aeration applies to either methods of rehydrating or not.


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## kaiserben (4/12/15)

Yeast (whether sprinkled dry, rehydrated from dy, or liquid) benefits from access to O2 to reproduce quickly and cleanly. It can do it without O2 (assuming it has required nutrients), but it'll be slower and increase likelihood of a stuck ferment of produce off flavours. 

Availability of O2 allows the yeast to create fatty acids and sterols that build healthy cell membranes. Insufficient levels fatty acids and sterols mean yeast could stop budding. Weak cell membranes mean they are more unlikely to handle alcohol and can be killed. There's an increased likelihood of a stuck ferment (I had a few before geting serious about O2) and production of off flavours. 

Basically, you can get away without O2 if you've stocked up on yeast nutrient, but you increase the likelihood of slow ferment, stuck ferment and off flavours. 

I use O2 on every brew these days. Previously had quite a few stuck ferments. Not anymore. 

Good info here if you fancy a read. 

EDIT: Dried yeast producers include sterols and that's why they can be sprinkled direct. But conditions become more ideal for the yeast if you give it some O2. And even more ideal if you've rehydrated first, IMO.


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## mckenry (5/12/15)

kaiserben said:


> Yeast (whether sprinkled dry, rehydrated from dy, or liquid) benefits from access to O2 to reproduce quickly and cleanly. It can do it without O2 (assuming it has required nutrients), but it'll be slower and increase likelihood of a stuck ferment of produce off flavours.
> 
> Availability of O2 allows the yeast to create fatty acids and sterols that build healthy cell membranes. Insufficient levels fatty acids and sterols mean yeast could stop budding. Weak cell membranes mean they are more unlikely to handle alcohol and can be killed. There's an increased likelihood of a stuck ferment (I had a few before geting serious about O2) and production of off flavours.
> 
> ...


The bottom two paragraphs of the link say this;

_Know Your Options_
_So, the bottom line is that yeast does not generally respire, and it does not even need oxygen at all to survive and grow. Yeast does, however, need lipids to build cell membranes and in their absence will readily consume oxygen for their synthesis._
_Aerating your wort may solve some fermentation problems, but remember that if you’re pitching a fresh, healthy yeast culture of the optimal size, aeration is usually not essential and may even be undesirable in certain cases. Most important, the level of dissolved oxygen necessary in wort to produce the best beer depends on the strain of yeast being used, its viability, the pitching rate, and the style of beer being made._
Lipids are what are jam packed into dry yeast. So, you dont need to add O2 when using dry. Adding O2 to wort when using dry yeast can increase lag time.
Dr. Clayton Cone from Danstar says you dont need O2 when using dry yeast, unless you brew >5% alcohol or underpitch.

I say, Know your options too. I've not had a slow or stuck ferment using dry since I rehydrated and used the correct pitch rate. 
I'm not a dry ONLY advocate. There are many many more choices with liquids. Its just dry is so easy. As I make 50L batches, liquid is always a starter, a step up... pitch, oxygen, clean up stone....
Dry yeast is weigh, hydrate, pitch. Bingo.


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## kaiserben (7/12/15)

I dunno. Everytime I think I understand something someone will contradict what I thought I understood. Haha. 

John Palmer's How to Brew says that yeast: "can use other methods to adapt and grow in the absence of oxygen, but they can do it much more efficiently with oxygen. ... The yeast use their own glycogen reserves, oxygen, and wort lipids to synthesize sterols to build up their cell membranes. The sterols are known to be critical for enabling the cell membrane to be permeable to wort sugars and other wort nutrients. Sterols can also be produced by the yeast under poor oxygen conditions from lipids found in wort trub, but that pathway is much less efficient. ... The reproduction process takes a lot of energy and aerobic metabolic processes are more efficient than anaerobic. Thus, an oxygen-rich wort shortens the adaptation phase, and allows the yeast to quickly reproduce to levels that will ensure a good fermentation."


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## kaiserben (7/12/15)

But back on topic, Would people recommend S-189 for a schwarzbier? From what research I've done I'm leaning towards S-23, but interested in people's opinions.


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## Tahoose (7/12/15)

Yeah it would be good option, or if you have the space but one of both and do a spilt batch. 1 pack for half a batch is about right for pitching rates anyway.


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## kaiserben (7/12/15)

Tahoose said:


> one of both and do a spilt batch.


Great idea.


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## Barge (7/12/15)

I would use s-189 on any lager if I was using a dry yeast. Very forgiving and predictable results. I recently used M84. Used a starter and fermented at 13C and lagered at 2C. Even under those conditions it took weeks for it to come good (as you could reasonably expect). In my experience S-189 has none of those issues.


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## Tahoose (7/12/15)

I have heard good things about m84, however my one experience was not good. 

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs onto a 1:045 wort and it stalled at 1:020 even after a temp rise and some agitation. I didn't want to package it and my holiday came before the final gravity did.

Ended up tipping it.


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## technobabble66 (28/7/16)

For those of us playing in the northern & eastern burbs of Melbs, Dave at Greensborough Homebrewing has just started stocking the 11.5g packs of S-189. 
Hallelujah!!


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## timmi9191 (28/7/16)

Any interest in splitting a 500g block? 

http://kegking.com.au/yeast/fermentis/saflager-s-189-500g-pack.html


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## indica86 (28/7/16)

Bought some from NHB. Like it actually. Will be re using the dregs shortly.
Was cheaper when I bought it.


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## yankinoz (28/7/16)

kaiserben said:


> But back on topic, Would people recommend S-189 for a schwarzbier? From what research I've done I'm leaning towards S-23, but interested in people's opinions.


I just enjoyed a Munich Dunkel brewed with S-189, pitched at 11 and fermented at 13. It was drinkable after one month of cold conditioning but has improved now over four months. I've done Oktoberfests with it too. Schwarzbier? Ja. Correct your lean and go for S-189 in malty lagers. Divorce S-23.


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## technobabble66 (28/7/16)

Hey yankinoz, care to share the Munich dunkel recipe? 
I'm still deciding between the base being all Munich or 85:15 Munichils. 
I've read various opinions on this. Namely the use of some pils may allow a lower FG and a drier beer. Thoughts?


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## yankinoz (29/7/16)

technobabble66 said:


> Hey yankinoz, care to share the Munich dunkel recipe?
> I'm still deciding between the base being all Munich or 85:15 Munichils.
> I've read various opinions on this. Namely the use of some pils may allow a lower FG and a drier beer. Thoughts?


I'll post the full recipe shortly. For now, the grist was 
3.0 kg Weyermann Munich T2 (the darker)
1.0 kg JW Export Pils
0.3 Gladfield Shepherd's Delight
0.3 Weyermann Caramunich III

SRM 16

As you can see, with those specialty malts I needed some pils for conversion, though probably less than I used.


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## kaiserben (29/7/16)

yankinoz said:


> I just enjoyed a Munich Dunkel brewed with S-189, pitched at 11 and fermented at 13. It was drinkable after one month of cold conditioning but has improved now over four months. I've done Oktoberfests with it too. Schwarzbier? Ja. Correct your lean and go for S-189 in malty lagers. Divorce S-23.


I ended up doing a side-by-side S-189 & S-23 and ... well ... they were both great. I'm not sure I had a preference in my schwarz. Both were drinkable from the get-go, the S-189 batch a little more so. But both had become noticeably awesome at 3 months and I had no preference after that. 

So I suppose S-189 is better just because it tasted better before it had been lagered. 

I've since made another batch using S-189, but had trouble getting it to ferment out. It wasn't at all drinkable at first. After 4 months it's just come around (but still tastes like it needs longer conditioning). 

And then made another with S-189 that seems to have gone smoothly. It's currently lagering. 

The next yeast I'll use is The Yeast Bay's Franconian Dark Lager.


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## technobabble66 (29/7/16)

Thanks, yankinoz for posting the recipe! I'll post the same question in the Style section and see what the additional feedback is. 
It seems like 97-100% Munich is fine as is to convert & attenuate out well. But like you, I'll be using some extra spec malt (~450g in 5kg), which makes me wonder if a little pils is best. 

@kaiserben, great to see a detailed comparison!! It's exactly the kind of info that's most useful for prospective S-189 users [emoji6]


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## mckenry (29/7/16)

What was this packaged as before? only 500g? <11.5g?


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## yankinoz (29/7/16)

Techno, your equipment, brewing water and methods probably differ from mine, but here are the essentials:

Volume 23 L, including estimated losses, actual starting volume in fermenter <22L
The essential information is the grist was:
3.0 kg Weyermann Munich T2
1.0 kg JW Export Pils (subbed for Bopils because of supply)
0.3 Gladfield Shepherd's Delight
0.3 Weyermann Caramunich III
1.051 OG
1.012 FG

SRM 16

Step mash: starting pH 5.4 (estimated using braukaiser), 40 minutes at 62, 20 at 65, and 30 at 71. Light sparge with 4L water at about 70.

Boil time 70 minutes
37 g Tettnang (3.8% AA) @ -55, 25g Tettnang @ -15

Pitched at 11 with 2 x 12 g S-189, repackaged by Craftbrew as Swiss Lager yeast, let rise to 13 during active phase, then slow rise to 16, batch-primed w glucose and bottled from primary at 22 days.
Starting mash pH 5.4 (estimated using Braukaiser),

Flavour: malt and more malt, slight roastiness. Sweet upfront, finish dry and moderately bitter

Some particulars:
BIAB w. dunk sparge

Less than a full boil. I started at 22L, topped up and at knockout added 3L of cold, sanitized water.

same water used in mash and sparge, target water composition similar to Munich except that the target chloride was higher, about 30 ppm

The mash schedule was chosen largely to keep attenuation fairly high after mashing a grist that included 600g of malts that tend to sweeten beers. If I do it again, I might reduce SD to about 220g and add more Munich.

About Munich T2, Weyermann says it self-converts, but some brewers who have used it at 100% of grist report low conversion rates. The methods differed, I suppose.

If you keg, you'll no doubt disregard my carbonation and lagering schedule, which is part of an ongoing experiment, but here it is:

I divided the beer after bottling. The control was at 18-20 C for two weeks and then went into cold conditioning at about 1 C. The test was at 18-20 for three days to start the yeast multiplying, in cold-conditioning for four weeks, back at carbonating temps for ten days, and then back in cold conditioning. The flavour from the test bottles is consistently superior, but there has been some variation in carbonation from bottle to bottle.


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## dr K (31/7/16)

why do you ferment at such temperatures when using a lager yeast??


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## Bribie G (31/7/16)

Doc, S-189 has acquired a bit of a following as you can do a pretty acceptable lager style beer using it at ale temperatures, so it's a good option for home brewers who don't have the fridge space for traditionally brewed lagers.
I've tasted lagers from a commercial micro using the yeast at 19 degrees and whilst they were clean and drinkable they didn't shout "Bavaria" nose, complexity and flavour.

Personally I'd run it through at sub 10 degrees as I now have the luxury of a dedicated lager fridge and modified cornies for lagering - keen to pick up a few packets when I can get hold of them.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (22/8/16)

Got my hands on a couple packs last weekend. Rehydrated and pitched at about 15C. Was bubbling out my blow off within 7-8 hrs. Dropped it to 13C to aim for that crisp profile. Excited to taste the results will be checking this every 3 days with a gravity and taste sample as I want to get my head around the 'true' ferment time of lagers. Previously I've been leaving for 4 weeks regardless of where the Gravity was at. Plus my D rests always seem to be too close to FG if not when at FG, so want to aim while the yeast is still active for maximum effect.


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## Ross (22/8/16)

Bribie G said:


> Doc, S-189 has acquired a bit of a following as you can do a pretty acceptable lager style beer using it at ale temperatures, so it's a good option for home brewers who don't have the fridge space for traditionally brewed lagers.
> I've tasted lagers from a commercial micro using the yeast at 19 degrees and whilst they were clean and drinkable they didn't shout "Bavaria" nose, complexity and flavour.
> 
> Personally I'd run it through at sub 10 degrees as I now have the luxury of a dedicated lager fridge and modified cornies for lagering - keen to pick up a few packets when I can get hold of them.


Bribie, 12c is the idea temp for this yeast, if you drop below 9c it's likely to stall.


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