# How Much Napi San Do You Use?



## jbowers (17/6/10)

After cleaning my fermenter last night, which I used pbw to do, I was a little upset by how much I was required to use per the instructions on the tub - nearly a quarter of the contents which cost me 14 bucks.

Anyway, I notice a lot of people use unscented napi san. How much per litre do you use for basic fermenter/bottle cleaning applications?


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## Murdoch (17/6/10)

A bit off topic but try looking in the Discount shops, $1 & $2 shops, crazies etc.... for cheaper generic Sodium Percarbonate cleaner
I scored some 35% stuff for $3/KG


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## SpillsMostOfIt (17/6/10)

Murdoch said:


> I scored some 35% stuff for $3/KG



...about what I pay for the Coles baby-strength (no colours/flavours). My last lot from the Fresh Food People *cough* was $2.49/kg.


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## mkstalen (17/6/10)

I use No-Frills / NoName brand unscented nappy wash which is about $5 per 500g (Looks like I might be being ripped off there from some earlier posts). Just look for active ingredient Sodium Percarbonate, the more the better.
I had a bunch of really filthy bottles (they'd been left outside for ages and were covered in mud and some had slime in them) I used 2 cap fulls per 10L bucket, soaked for a few days and the bottles came up like brand new.
When I cleaned out my fermenter the other day I think I used 2 cap fulls into a 30L fermenter and left a week and it was pristine.


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## redunderthebed (17/6/10)

About a cap full of mum's generic home brand napisan and dissolve it in 2lt of boiling hot water works a treat.


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## thesunsettree (17/6/10)

jbowers said:


> After cleaning my fermenter last night, which I used pbw to do, I was a little upset by how much I was required to use per the instructions on the tub - nearly a quarter of the contents which cost me 14 bucks.
> 
> Anyway, I notice a lot of people use unscented napi san. How much per litre do you use for basic fermenter/bottle cleaning applications?




hi mate,

1 teaspoon per 2lt. i was told this by another user when i asked a similar question a while back, seems to work for me.

cheerrs
matt


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## WarmBeer (17/6/10)

Maybe I've been doin' it wrong, but my understanding was that PBW was pretty strong. I use a tablespoon in a full fermenter, and just leave it overnight.

I know the guy from 5-star chemicals was on a Brewing Network podcast a while back. Can't remember if he also mentioned the concentration of PBW?


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## jbowers (17/6/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Maybe I've been doin' it wrong, but my understanding was that PBW was pretty strong. I use a tablespoon in a full fermenter, and just leave it overnight.
> 
> I know the guy from 5-star chemicals was on a Brewing Network podcast a while back. Can't remember if he also mentioned the concentration of PBW?



It says it needs 3/4 an oz per gallon. So if you fill up a 30l fermenter that's several ounces.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (17/6/10)

I hate to actually say something that is on topic, but...

I tend to get most of whatever I am trying to clean off with water and a brush beforehand, so it is basically clean-ish before I start. I then use just a little shake of powder in some very hot water (unless I'm cleaning glass... duh), make sure everything gets covered - either by soaking or wetting - and let it sit for a while. I will then either brush it again or rinse and go, depending on what happens.

If that doesn't get everything off, I do it again or get the PBW out. I would rather use too little and do it twice than use too much and be discharging loads napisan through my waste system.

I would not prescribe specific amounts, but rather suggest experimentation. Ditto with the PBW.


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## haysie (17/6/10)

jbowers said:


> It says it needs 3/4 an oz per gallon. So if you fill up a 30l fermenter that's several ounces.




Why do you fill the fermenter up to clean it Wally?


sure you`ve heard of a sponge/wipe, brush etc. No need to fill the thing, a couple of litres then a wipe then a rinse, then if need be do it again.


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## jbowers (17/6/10)

haysie said:


> Why do you fill the fermenter up to clean it Wally?




Why wouldn't you? It says it requires 25-35 minutes before you rinse it out so Im assuming that means 25-35 mins of contact time.


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## Pollux (17/6/10)

I use one of the cheap no-name brands (honestly can't remember which one, it would be either from coles or woolies) and I never measure it, I just tip some in.

At an estimate, I'd say I use a capful in a fermenter, a bit under in a cornie and if I am soaking bottles (which I tend to do in the bathtub) I normally throw in two capfuls and then a squirt of dishwashing liquid (seems to help remove the labels) and fill the bath to around halfway.


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## MarkBastard (17/6/10)

jbowers said:


> Why wouldn't you? It says it requires 25-35 minutes before you rinse it out so Im assuming that means 25-35 mins of contact time.



Isn't that for big commercial stainless steel conical fermenters?

IMO for plastic fermenters I'd never use PBW. Just a bit of napisan with a sponge to scrub the crap off. Napisan for removing soil, sanitiser for sanitation.


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## Pete2501 (17/6/10)

I'm the 1 cap full of napisan in a carboy full of water kinda guy. 

Leave it till I need it. So at least 24hrs.


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## jbowers (17/6/10)

You guys have just revolutionised my brewing technique hahaha. I assume you use similar rates when doing cleaning bottles? I got some old pet's donated that have a weird smell so a sanitiser probably wont be enough,..


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## Nick JD (17/6/10)

I brew in 20L Jerry Cans with only a little lid ... so I fill it to the brim (not my fault they keep building apartments and not dams  ) and add a cap of napisan. 24hours later I let the 20L out through the tap reeming the crap out of that in the process and rinse it out four times with about a liter and a violent shake. Clean as a whistle, no scrubbing. 

Best of all no mankey cloths have been in there scratching bacteria housing estates.


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## Stuster (17/6/10)

jbowers said:


> You guys have just revolutionised my brewing technique hahaha. I assume you use similar rates when doing cleaning bottles? I got some old pet's donated that have a weird smell so a sanitiser probably wont be enough,..



Yep. I just fill an old fermenter with hot napisan/sodium percarbonate solution. Bottles in. Leave overnight. Rinse well (3 times for me). Ready to be sanitised.


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## Pete2501 (17/6/10)

So if I'm going to leave it in there over night I don't need to worry about the poop ring at the top?


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## manticle (17/6/10)

A dash, a shake and a fart. If I want to leave the fermenter overnight to soak I'll fill it and reuse the solution. If I'm scrubbing it there and then I just use a couple of litres. I usually boil my water first as the foaming action is great and the solution seems to work better.

Like Nick, I'll fill a cube if I use it - other option is the hot napisan then when it cools, add some raw rice and shake. Does the scrubbing for you.

Because it's a cleaner, not a sanitiser, the correct amount is whatever works. It's like using dishwashing liquid to do your dishes. Who bothers measuring that? Make it foamy, make the water hot, clean away. Maybe I'm odd.


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## haysie (17/6/10)

So many ways!! Nick is your peusdo ?


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## Pennywise (17/6/10)

Nope, the napisan will eat that shit alive mate. So long as you fill it up with hot water and not cold, that oxyaction shit does wonders. ****, I sound like a bloody commercial now don't I. Per fermenter, I use about half a lid full, does the job fine if left to it's own devices. I think I waste more on my starter flasks than anything else, just cause it's so damn hard to measure anything that small. Oh, and IMO (and don't shoot me down for this, because it's only IMHO, and others may be able to tell) but the lemon scented no frills stuff is fine to use, I've soaked fermenters in it for days and suffered no ill effects. But like I said, others may be able to taste/smell it. I can't so I use it, off course, if I can get the no scented stuff then I will, but have no second thoughts about getting scented if nothing else is available (which is most of the time).


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## praxis178 (17/6/10)

Homebrewer79 said:


> Nope, the napisan will eat that shit alive mate. So long as you fill it up with hot water and not cold, that oxyaction shit does wonders. ****, I sound like a bloody commercial now don't I. Per fermenter, I use about half a lid full, does the job fine if left to it's own devices. I think I waste more on my starter flasks than anything else, just cause it's so damn hard to measure anything that small. Oh, and IMO (and don't shoot me down for this, because it's only IMHO, and others may be able to tell) but the lemon scented no frills stuff is fine to use, I've soaked fermenters in it for days and suffered no ill effects. But like I said, others may be able to taste/smell it. I can't so I use it, off course, if I can get the no scented stuff then I will, but have no second thoughts about getting scented if nothing else is available (which is most of the time).



Yep that it will!

Half cap for a corni and a bit more than that for a 30L tap hot water and leave till you're ready to rinse, usually no scrubbing required and as I don't scrub my plastics, if a wipe with the palm of my hand doesn't do it, then redo the soaking.

Bottles (glass only) hot water x3 then 10seconds of live steam before use......


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## peas_and_corn (17/6/10)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I tend to get most of whatever I am trying to clean off with water and a brush beforehand, so it is basically clean-ish before I start. I then use just a little shake of powder in some very hot water (unless I'm cleaning glass... duh), make sure everything gets covered - either by soaking or wetting - and let it sit for a while. I will then either brush it again or rinse and go, depending on what happens.



You need to be careful with that brush, you could be making small scratches that are just fantastic for bacteria to live in. I don't use anything coarser than a sponge.


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## michael_aussie (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> Because it's a cleaner, not a sanitiser, .........


Do this mean that you also use a sanitiser?

I use Coles no-name "napicare plus" which contains Sodium Percarbonate 346g/kg.

I have always assumed it would sanitise too? It's the same chemical that came with my HB kits in the first place.

BTW - do I have to rinse the Sodium Percarbonate off?
I have always, but were wondering if I could leave it on.


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Yes I use a sanitiser too.

Sodium percarbonate, when used with really hot water, has some antibacterial properties but is not really considered an effective sanitiser.

Yes you need to rinse it - either thoroughly with cold water until it no longer feels slimy or with cold water then something acidic like vinegar or starsan (which just happens to be a no-rinse sanitiser). If you do use vinegar you will want to rinse again, then sanitise with whatever.

Worthwhile reading: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=18


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## michael_aussie (26/6/10)

manticle said:


> Yes I use a sanitiser too.
> 
> Sodium percarbonate, when used with really hot water, has some antibacterial properties but is not really considered an effective sanitiser.
> 
> ...



ty for that,
so to connect the final dot .... although that article doesn't mention starsan, I understand startsan is phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid and most of you guys swear by it??
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/tech/starsan.pdf


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Very easy to use, very economical.

I also use other things but no need to go into that here. The most commonly used sanitisers seems to be:

Bleach or bleach and vinegar
Idophor
Starsan


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## goatherder (26/6/10)

Bleach & vinegar common? Whilst an effective sanitiser the flavour impacts render these unsuitable to be used on surfaces in contact with beer. Even iodophor has an impact on flavour under the right circumstances...






manticle said:


> Very easy to use, very economical.
> 
> I also use other things but no need to go into that here. The most commonly used sanitisers seems to be:
> 
> ...


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## manticle (26/6/10)

More commonly recommended than something like sodium met among older brewers (in my experience and that's anecdotal at best). That's why I wrote 'seems to be'.

Supposedly in the right proportions it's no rinse and has no impact on flavour - I don't trust it myself. I do use bleach as an initial contact sanitiser but rinse the bejesus out of it with boiling water and a seperate sodium met rinse before using star san (yes I rinse the sod. met first).


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## goatherder (26/6/10)

Fair enough, sounds like overkill to me though. Why use 4 sanitisers when 1 will do?



manticle said:


> More commonly recommended than something like sodium met among older brewers (in my experience and that's anecdotal at best). That's why I wrote 'seems to be'.
> 
> Supposedly in the right proportions it's no rinse and has no impact on flavour - I don't trust it myself. I do use bleach as an initial contact sanitiser but rinse the bejesus out of it with boiling water and a seperate sodium met rinse before using star san (yes I rinse the sod. met first).


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## manticle (26/6/10)

Had some infections over Summer which were hard to get rid of. Made me paranoid and I'd rather take the extra time and care than nurse through a beer for 3-5 weeks only to tip it at the end. I re-use both my bleach solution and sodium met solution so the impact on the environment, water wastage and cost is minimised.

boiling water is also cooled and re-used (usually to water veggies)

Also the sodium met and boiling water are used to remove the chlorine. It's just an added advantage that both have sanitising properties.


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## peas_and_corn (26/6/10)

goatherder said:


> Fair enough, sounds like overkill to me though. Why use 4 sanitisers when 1 will do?



I alternate between Iodophor and Starsan, to help limit bugs that are resistant to my house sanitiser.


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## HoppingMad (28/6/10)

Just using Star San for the first time on all my equipment (as well as my stainless pots and taps). 
Have been getting DMS in my pales and it's giving me the irrits.

Up till now been simply using the PBW/Safeway Odorless Napisan and rinsing thoroughly with boiled water from a kettle, and it's worked without issue.

Think I need to use the Star San just to flush all the nasties out - two batches with DMS is enough for me. I want to make sure everything is squeaky clean.

But that said, normally just use Napisan or Bleach like you guys and don't have problems. Tend to get more issues after using a belgian yeast strain (like T-58) strangely enough.

Hopper.


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## Bribie G (28/6/10)

With sodium percarbonate, the two byproducts are oxygen and sodium carbonate (old fashioned washing soda) so it's environmentally a very good cleaner to nuke most organic shyte. I then follow up with Starsan but after reading the above comments I might do all my equipment in bleach a few times a year as an insurance policy. Watch out you sneaky bugs.


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## Pennywise (28/6/10)

I'm not sure Starsan will get rid of DMS :unsure: Curious about it though if it does, I have issues with 1084 and DMS


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## Bribie G (28/6/10)

Some infections masquerade as DMS - rotten vegetable cabbagy taint, sometimes hard to pick from the 'sweetcorn' of DMS. I thought true DMS was caused by not boiling long enough with certain malts, especially Pilsner and many Euro malts. I once had a brew tainted with that veg flavour and eventually traced it back to infected fermenter tap, after I had done a couple more duds out of that fermenter.


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## Dazza_devil (28/6/10)

I use PBW and Napisan.
I rinse my fermenters with hot water after a brew and rub any gunk that I can off with my hand. In goes the bung and about a litre or so of PBW solution made to the recommended concentration of 2 teaspoons/5 litres H2O. I have a microfibre cloth that I use specificaly and solely for the purpose of cleaning fermenters. After a good wipe down of the fermenter and lid interiors on goes the lid and a good swirl with the cloth still inside every time I walk past it recoats the interior with PBW solution.
No need to waste all that good PBW soaking a fermenter full of solution.
I do the same with PBW before using the fermenter again then sanitise with starsan.
If I feel like my fermenter needs a good soaking I fill it to the top with the hottest water I can get from the tap and use Napisan(the baby stuff without enzymes and fragrant) at the recommended strength, half a lid/7 litres H2O. Soak for 2 or 3 days then rinse well with a citric acid wash. I usually give my fermenters a soak every 2 or 3 brews.


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## Tony M (28/6/10)

Just a quick word here. I have found that leaving sod. percarb. in contact with the HDPE fermenters I was using (the translucent white buckets), there can be noticable oxidation of the contact surface with extended exposure. This is manifested by a slight flakiness and discolouration of the surface which can be scratched off with a thumbnail. Just dont fill your fermenter with the stuff and leave it sitting in a corner for a month.


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## Margwar (29/6/10)

goatherder said:


> Bleach & vinegar common? Whilst an effective sanitiser the flavour impacts render these unsuitable to be used on surfaces in contact with beer. Even iodophor has an impact on flavour under the right circumstances...



I use Bleach and Vinegar and have had no off flavours at all. I use 15ml of Bleach and 15ml of Vinegar to 5L of cold water. I then rince with very hot water. After listening to the Podcast from Basic Brewing from the 29/03/07, the guy on there was the inventor of Starsan, and for half the show he talked about Bleach. If used in the correct concentration it can be cheap, very effective and leave no off flavours in your beer.
I guess the prospect of off flavours can scare many people off, and I was concerned too, but after many brews now using nothing but Bleach and Vinegar, I have had no comments that my beer has off tastes due to my sanitising.

I must get some napisan now as the PBW can become a little exspensive over time.


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