# My new budget Grainfather-esque setup



## takai

Been piecing stuff together for a little while now to go recirculation on my BIAB setup. Things accelerated a little bit last week when i was able to pick up some of those cheap 56L pots at a good price. Ultimately ill probably discard that pot for a nicer MegaPot or similar from the US when i head over in November. But until then this will get me going for now.

Ill be making two of these at the same time as a mate is after one as well.

Take one 56L pot:






With a 19L BigW pot for comparison:





19L pot will become the basis for the malt pipe.

With two 4500W Camco elements:





Planning on doing a two point recirculation. Just waiting for the last few bits to arrive for that.


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## slcmorro

How do you control temp for mashing mate? Keen to see how you go when it's all planned out.


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## Cervantes

Could you tell us where you got the pots?


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## nosco

Im thinking along those lines too takai. Im a while off yet but ill be keen to see how you set up the malt pipe. Im also thinking of doing a cheap herms.


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## takai

slcmorro said:


> How do you control temp for mashing mate? Keen to see how you go when it's all planned out.


Will be controlled with a PID and RTD same as my current BIAB urn. Building a new control unit for it as well, just making it a bit neater than the last one.



Cervantes said:


> Could you tell us where you got the pots?


Pots were from a seller in Brunswick, although i may have one for sale soon. Since posting that my mate saw the pic and almost had a heart attack on the size and is having cold feet :S


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## Mr B

Just reassure your mate than all too soon it will be too small..........


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## takai

Mr B said:


> Just reassure your mate than all too soon it will be too small..........


Ill let him deal with the WAF... I'm not going there. Very glad that my wife is very understanding and i have lots of bigger items that take up more $$$ and space to worry about


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## MastersBrewery

takai said:


> Take one 56L pot:
> 
> 
> With two 4500W Camco elements:


9000W in a 56L pot is ridiculous over kill mate! half that would be over kill, 2400w will easily bring a single batch (23-30L) to the boil, 3600w will do it right smart and you'll need to back off for boil. 9000W is good for 1BBL (120L)

ED: I'm unsure of your knowledge regarding power, but you need to be aware each of those elements draws 23 amps, a standard out let in Australia is rated to 10 amps, trade use 15amps for some tools but not regularly found in a house. The 46 amps you want to pull would require a dedicated circuit/s and would cost more than the some total of your build to date. If the circuits are already available go for it!


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## takai

MastersBrewery said:


> 9000W in a 56L pot is ridiculous over kill mate! half that would be over kill, 2400w will easily bring a single batch (23-30L) to the boil, 3600w will do it right smart and you'll need to back off for boil. 9000W is good for 1BBL (120L)


Ah i meant one for each pot not two per pot.... i see the confusion though.

Planning on using the 4500w dialled back to 2400w for domestic usage with an SSV-R. Should yield even lower watt density over the element, and makes for very cheap element replacements.


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## MastersBrewery

cool cool, wanna taste your beer before ya get killed playin with high powered wires is all


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## Fylp

I have the same 56l pot with a keg king 2200 element. Gets the boil up ok but could do with a bit more. I'm thinking about replacing my bag with a modified 38l pot. You think 19l will do for malt pipe?


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## MastersBrewery

Fylp said:


> I have the same 56l pot with a keg king 2200 element. Gets the boil up ok but could do with a bit more. I'm thinking about replacing my bag with a modified 38l pot. You think 19l will do for malt pipe?


There are calculators on site for working out Malt Pipe size (it's a lil late a few to many brews later to go searching but pm me and I can sort you out) my brauclone uses a 32L MP and best fluidisation levels are around the 8kg of grain. I have done 10+kg but the mash is decidedly thicker and efficiency plummets. 38L would give you some big singles. 19L will just do a standard single I have a spare Big W pot if you want to try it out.

MB


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## nosco

I think its in the 2nd post on this thread


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## Cervantes

nosco said:


> I think its in the 2nd post on this thread


You will have to change the malt to liquor ratio to suit a full volume mash to make the calculator work.

Not sure what that ratio would be though.


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## takai

Im planning on effectively a 38L malt pipe, two 19L pots welded together at this stage, although given the price of some cheap 36L pots on eBay i could be persuaded to go off the shelf.


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## takai

Scratch that, making one setup now. My mate, ever the master tactician, 'freaked out' over the size and so convinced his wife to let him get a GF for better WAF.


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## nosco

takai said:


> Im planning on effectively a 38L malt pipe, two 19L pots welded together.


Thats a good idea. I just meed someone to weld it for me.


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## micbrew

I found it was easier to buy a stainless steel ( chinese pot ) for about $120 ... 32 litres from memory had some feet welded to pot to keep off the element

I will follow this build to see how you go .... best of luck


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## GalBrew

Isn't the Grainfather itself a budget setup?


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## takai

GalBrew said:


> Isn't the Grainfather itself a budget setup?


Not as budget as it could be. When a mate was blathering on about how expensive brewing is i mudmapped a full recirculation unit for under $100.
Two plastic buckets, some stainless bolts, eBay hardware, kettle element an a LBP.


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## welly2

GalBrew said:


> Isn't the Grainfather itself a budget setup?


If you call $1100 budget, sure. I suspect many people wouldn't, though.


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## GalBrew

welly2 said:


> If you call $1100 budget, sure. I suspect many people wouldn't, though.


I could have bought at least 3 GFs for the cost of building my original 3v HERMS system. So yeah, it's quite cheap for what you get.


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## takai

Which would make about 10-12 of this setup, or 30-40 of the tightarse bucket setup.

Brewing is as expensive as you want to make it.


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## Fylp

My 56l pot was about $60 or so and the 38l is only about $55 delivered- both stainless. My recirculated biab set up was about $160-all stainless. The only reason I'd go to the malt pipe from a bag is for sparging. I've been playing around with pulling 2 20l cubes out of my 56l biab (she's called biaby). To fit it all in I go hard on capacity of malt and water, then dunk sparge the bag for the extra 6 litres needed for top up. If I could pull up the malt pipe and sparge straight in like the GF does it would be easier.


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## takai

Which pump are you using Fylp, and how are you doing your recirculation?


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## Fylp

I use a black good grade magnetic drive off eBay. It puts out 8l per min. I use 13mm silicone hose and 1/2" stainless fittings off the pump and for major bends. It comes out a bit of copper pipe hammered shut with holes drilled so it sprays out evenly into the grain.


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## Eagleburger

cost me less that $200 for 82L + 38L + 2 of 3000 watt elements. Had pump laying round. good set for 2x20L kegs.


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## rude

Thats pretty impresive Eagleburger any pics 
What is youre initial pre-boil volume
Is it pid controlled
Also did you just run one cct for elements 25amp C/B


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## takai

Aye, more pics required, always more pics required.


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## Mardoo

takai said:


> Which would make about 10-12 of this setup, or 30-40 of the tightarse bucket setup.
> 
> Brewing is as expensive as you want to make it.


Has anyone built a plastic bucket single vessel? Bucket of 2 Deaths?


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## takai

Mardoo said:


> Has anyone built a plastic bucket single vessel? Bucket of 2 Deaths?


There is a guy in MM who brews with plastic. I'm tempted to do it for giggles if I can find the buckets cheap


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## yankinoz

I'll also be in the US in November. If we're on the same flight comng back, it should be easy to spot the guy withm a MegaPot belted on his lap.


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## takai

yankinoz said:


> I'll also be in the US in November. If we're on the same flight comng back, it should be easy to spot the guy withm a MegaPot belted on his lap.


Haha, given ill be flying just before Thanksgiving it may not be as uncommon a sight


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## Eagleburger

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/8808-inner-pot/

Few more pics in my gallery.


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## nosco

Dam thats pretty tidy . How did you cut the hole in the pot?


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## nosco

Just looked at qldkev thread.
I guess its just grinding but still a neat job with the shorter slots.


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## takai

After someone mentioned that you can get these pots on eBay i went looking, and found the 38L ones:







Much better size than the 19L BigW pots, and should work quite well for my purposes. Now to find time to get the rest of the bits together, and then start installing...


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## thebigwilk

Had a bit of fun building this unit a few years back I think its where Qld kev got his insipration from to build his set up. It works well I have extended the top recirculation hose so it can be used to fill the cube at the end of the boil , it makes it easy to use the pump to transfer into the cube.

Cheers!


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## nosco

takai said:


> After someone mentioned that you can get these pots on eBay i went looking, and found the 38L ones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much better size than the 19L BigW pots, and should work quite well for my purposes. Now to find time to get the rest of the bits together, and then start installing...


What price was the pot? Links?


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## nosco

Im thinking of using the same mesh as thebigwilk. Do you think it would work with a motorised mash stirer or would too much grain fall through?


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## thebigwilk

I use a grain bag with this setup I got the mesh steel from http://www.geordi.com.au/ it was only thirty bucks cut to size and all, but just make sure you ask to see there off cuts they have all sorts of shapes and sizes a lot cheaper than buying a hole sheet.


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## nosco

I already have a sheet I got from Rs online. I like the idea of the wire/rod to hold it up. Is it 2mm? I am in the west so I will have to shop around for that or I could just get a bit thicker and drill a bigger hole.


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## spog

nosco said:


> Im thinking of using the same mesh as thebigwilk. Do you think it would work with a motorised mash stirer or would too much grain fall through?


Motorised mash stirrer ?
Now you have my attention pics and description please.


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## nosco

Ive got nothong yet. Since i now have a motor from a bread maker for my mill i have a spare electric go cart motor. I also have an aluminum (i hope its just aluminum ) 30cm fan blade, some 10mm ss rod and a spider coupler and a rough idea that may or may not work. If i get it started ill make a thread.


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## nosco

Getting the mill goong is first priority though.


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## takai

Well i managed to pick up a cheap 38L pot off eBay, cheaper than 2x19L BigW pots 

Started modifying it today for the malt pipe:


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## Matplat

Hi Takai,

I am thinking about getting one of those 56L pots, (I am nowhere near you so wouldn't have been able to get the one you sold anyway).

Considering you are using one to make a recirculating system, is it safe to assume you are happy enough with the build quality? And do you reckon you would be able to do double batches in it?

Have you used the handles with the pot full?

I am BIAB for now, but may well end up following your lead with the malt pipe....

Cheers, Matt


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## takai

They are reasonable quality, bit thinner than a lot of other pots, but still quite reasonable. Also means they are excellent for prototyping.

However I havent used the handles with it full, lifting 60kg of boiling liquid isnt my idea of fun. The handles are there to get the empty pots with all the other gear nested inside of them up and down the stairs.


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## Matplat

Yep fair call... that's alot of burning potential. I did my first mash last night using a Big W pot, and removed the pot from the stove so I didn't scorch the doona that I threw over it. I guess I will have to figure out another way to not burn my insulation.....


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## Fylp

I've got the same pot. I couldn't lift if full. I can get a double batch biab. I just go a big grain bill and then top up before boil. Nothing high gravity though.


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## Matplat

Fuckin sweet... I just ordered one anyways  now I've gotta get a burner.... but there are plenty of threads on that already...


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## Fylp

Or go electric


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## Matplat

Yeah I did think bout that.... but being limited to a 10 Amp circuit is well... limiting!


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## MastersBrewery

Use two circuits, I do.


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## paulyman

Okay just bought a 38L pot from Evilbay, time to make a proper malt pipe.

Had the briefest of moments to impulse buy the 82L to replace my current pot.


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## Fylp

Matplat said:


> Yeah I did think bout that.... but being limited to a 10 Amp circuit is well... limiting!


I just use the keg king element. Steps are quick enough for me. Whack the lid on and gets up to boil in about 1/2hr. It's just so easy though.


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## Matplat

Is that just the 2200W element for $40?


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## Fylp

Yeah, that's it.


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## takai

Finally got around to working on this again.
Built the control box:





Installed element and hardware:





Now currently repassivating and leak testing:


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## nosco

Where did you get the element adaptor from? I can only find em in the us


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## Matplat

Are you gonna have the double return/whirlpool a la QLDKEV style? 

In fact, how are you recirculating full stop? The malt pipe is taller than the pot so a return into the pot wont make it over the top of the malt pipe?


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## takai

Matplat said:


> Are you gonna have the double return/whirlpool a la QLDKEV style?
> 
> In fact, how are you recirculating full stop? The malt pipe is taller than the pot so a return into the pot wont make it over the top of the malt pipe?


Not the double return for now, although i do have the parts to make it work. For now the return will be a pipe in the inner pot over the top, or perhaps through the lid. Mainly want to get it going and check viability first.

Am thinking about putting in a whirlpool return lower down though, and will consider putting in the dual return at that time.


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## takai

nosco said:


> Where did you get the element adaptor from? I can only find em in the us


Ooops, missed this post. Element housing was out of the US, from brewhardware (no affiliation)


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## Matplat

takai said:


> Am thinking about putting in a whirlpool return lower down though, and will consider putting in the dual return at that time.


Surely, the whirlpool return is the double return????


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## crowmanz

But he could use the whirlpool separate to the malt pipe return. Only using 1 return at a time, rather than using 2 at a time.


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## Matplat

I think i must be missing something here, because that is exactly what i am thinking of when i say double return. One return to the malt pipe, and one return into the pot with an elbow to whirlpool, both with taps to open and close them...?


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## takai

Ah, the photos from the Qldkev thread have the lower return directed straight at the element, rather than a whirlpool. Then the upper return is used as either the maltpipe or a whirlpool return depending on whether it is in the outer or inner pot.


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## crowmanz

The bottom return is for flow over the element and providing an overflow option / keeping enough liquid below the malt pipe. The grainfather has a central overflow pipe and a top mesh screen so pumping excess wort onto the top flows down the overflow mostly grain free, the brau is similar having the top mesh screen.

I run both (my bottom return isn't fully plumbed in) returns during mash and only restrict the flow to the top of the malt pipe via a ball valve. Without the bottom return I could possibly have an overflow or stuck mash issue. 

Once I plumb my lower return in it will be set up as a whirlpool return


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## Matplat

Hmmm, yeah I'm thinking that if you use the whirlpool return while mashing, that the whirlpool will be good enough by itself to prevent scorching, without the need for a dedicated element return.


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## takai

Matplat said:


> Hmmm, yeah I'm thinking that if you use the whirlpool return while mashing, that the whirlpool will be good enough by itself to prevent scorching, without the need for a dedicated element return.


That is what im thinking as well, and planning on that in the long run.


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## krausenhaus

I have mine set up with the lower return doubling as a whirlpool return, and it does a fine job of keeping the wort moving around the element even though its a fair bit higher up.



nosco said:


> Where did you get the element adaptor from? I can only find em in the us


Nosco I have a brand new one for sale if you're interested, it's the solder-on version though:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/85427-stainless-element-enclosure-brew-hardware/


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## crowmanz

Matplat said:


> Hmmm, yeah I'm thinking that if you use the whirlpool return while mashing, that the whirlpool will be good enough by itself to prevent scorching, without the need for a dedicated element return.


I think in the end we are all talking about the same thing.

Top return normal, bottom return whirlpool? both used in mashing, top turned off at end of boil for bottom only return to whirlpool.


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## takai

Finally got around to getting some work done on this, plus the rest of the fittings arrived, so i put in the external return.

Lower whirlpool, upper to feed the mash:






How the malt pipe is fed. Will put some 10mm hose between and just lock in place during mash, low flow and low resistance so shouldnt pop off.





Finally what it looks like externally:





Currently waiting for the liquid PFTE to dry and then can leak test it again (failed the first time)


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## Benn

Coming along nicely :beer:


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## enoch

I've gone with the 56/82 litre combo for a great grain father. My gf is a.bit small for some brews after a 50 litre mash tun and 100 litre boiler. 
Aim to use a double Hotplate under it for mashing and add an immersion for boil. I've got a spare domed false bottom I'll use in the malt pipe to start with and have a march pump and fittings from old systems.
Will go simple gf style plumbing initially.


I've got an open ardbir controller that will run it.


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## Matplat

takai said:


> Finally what it looks like externally:


That puts my plumbing to shame, i will have my taps pointing straight outwards and they will hang out like dogs balls


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## trevgale

I noticed you are using Bostons liquid thread sealant. I used this on my setup previously and it left a funny smell and what looked like an oil slick on top of the liquid.

I originally used it to get my valves fixed in the correct orientation and figured that it should be ideal given that it is rated up to 135degC and is for use on potable water. I can only guess that it was due to the low pH or wort, I didn't check at the time if I had the same issue in my HLT. 

Anyway just thought I would give you a heads up in case you have a similar problem and go around in circles trying to find the cause. At the time I had just build a new system and thought it might have been some kind of contamination from the valves and fittings.

I think somebody else had a thread on the same problems somewhere.


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## trevgale

TheWiggman said:


> Comforting words Tahoose, but unfortunately my luck has taken a turn for the worse. As for my partner, she's at the races today so I've been at home looking after 3 mad kids. Still managed a brew because I'm just that hardcore.
> 
> I tasted the weissbier after a few days in the fermenter and noted the plastic taste has returned. Not pronounced, but present. I'm over the system in general so I figure f%^k it - I'm going to drink this one. I got someone else to sample it and they said they couldn't really tell, so that says how obvious it is.
> Today I did a XXXX bitter recipe (don't hate on me - I like the beer alright? Gold is another story...) which I batched sparged as I explained above.
> 
> Mashed in at 50°C for protein rest for 15 mins
> Mash at 66°C (double checked my temps today and found out the thermocouples read badly, so I was right on it). +/-0.5°C for an hour.
> Mash out to 78°C for 20 mins, dumped the mash into a fermenter so I can use the boiler as a kettle.
> 
> While I was doing this I noticed something odd that I've seen in the other brews but didn't think twice. Bear in mind I've never seen another AG brewer in action before excluding a BIAB. Note the colour around the bubbles -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone tell me if this is normal? In real life there was a bit more colour, like an oil slick. To me that says there is some sort of hydrocarbon in the mash, and I haven't put oil anywhere near the system. I believe it's a plastic residue. I'm certain it's not the grain because this was packaged by Craft Brewer.
> In fact I'm pretty bloody confident this isn't normal, I just want reassurance.
> 
> At this stage it tastes really good, can't tell that there's something in there that shouldn't be. After doing the rest of the brew (got everything spot on with an extra 1.5l in the fermenter) I tasted it half way through the boil and I reckon the plastic taste has returned. It's now chilling in the fridge and I'll be splitting the yeast so if it does turn out badly, I'll have some fresh stuff on-hand.
> 
> I was surprisingly relaxed as I suppose this isn't a new thing for me. I bit the bullet and pulled the entire system apart. What I found was that there was a lot of plastic stinkiness in both the mash tun and keg/RIMS unit on all the stainless fittings. Here's all of it, and if you look at the threads you'll see what I'm talking about. What's visible is not the worst of it. And yes, there's some rust on the compression fittings thanks to the copper tube which was horribly corroded -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The culprit? Because I didn't have any thread tape in the shed when I built the system, I used this -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before everyone rants - yes I know how silly I am - it does say it's rated for water and gas up to 135°C, well above temps I exposed it to. It's obviously not acidic-mash tolerant though, and the mash liquor must have slowly chewed away at it during the brew cycle and wrecked all my brews. I had a chew on one of the threads in the mash tun and it tasted horrible. My original dramas with the boiler though were a different issue, this is just another thing to add to this mess.
> I spent all afternoon cleaning every little bit of plastic out and giving it a solid PBW soak. There is not a hint of the smell any more. I reassembled everything with blue thread tape this time and I assume that's fine to use in contact with mash liquor. I pulled the keg apart and will purchase the gear to make a HERMS system out of my HERMS coil in the near future. It'll be a while until the next brew so I'll find out then if I've solved it.
> 
> I'm pretty confident I have. Here's a list of where I failed -
> 
> Used a liquid sealant on threads
> Used a sealant on a leak
> Installed a sight glass unnecessarily
> Purchased an undersized pump
> Cleaned copper with bleach
> Used a keg as RIMS system when I should have settled on something simpler
> Many lessons for the new brewer. DON'T USE LIQUID SEALANT UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE PISSED OFF AT THE WORLD CONSTANTLY. I still love this hobby though.



Here is the post I was thinking of.


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## takai

I have used Bostons fairly extensively in the past, with no issues. I guess time will tell though if it is an issue here. Planning on a test brew next weekend at this stage, so will find out shortly.
Failing that i have some Loctite 567, 561 and 565 and 542 which are the same compound as teflon tape, but in liquid form.

Failing all of that i actually only have one thread done up with the liquid PTFE, so should be able to seal it effectively with multiple layers of tape with some trial and error.


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## TheWiggman

If you've used that thread sealant pull everything apart that is was used on and give it a serious clean. Caustic soda, sodium percarbernate soak, whatever - and then hit it with a wire brush and soak again.
Edit: sloooow reply. I'm surprised you haven't had issues with it in the past.


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## Matplat

I was planning on using loctite 577... says it is good for potable water systems, mild acids and alkalis... but you're making me worried... different kettle of fish i hope?


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## Burt de Ernie

What is the cost of this project up to at the moment?


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## TheWiggman

Matplat said:


> I was planning on using loctite 577... says it is good for potable water systems, mild acids and alkalis... but you're making me worried... different kettle of fish i hope?


I personally wouldn't use any liquid thread sealant. Teflon tape is a proven and effective thread sealer in brewing, just use that unless there is a good reason not to. By all means try it and good luck, but I'd rather keep industrial chemicals out of the brewing process where possible.


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## Benn

Apply the Teflon tape "with" the direction of the thread rather than against it so the action of threading the two members together doesn't cause any unraveling, scrunching or general unsightliness of the Teflon.


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## Matplat

Burt de Ernie said:


> What is the cost of this project up to at the moment?


Just totalled mine up to $260 and that is with welding being done for free. I have used the same 56l ebay pot and a bigW malt pipe.....


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## takai

Just did the sums, and it is as follows:
56L pot: $45
38L pot: $35
Fittings: $50ish (some lying around, most from ebay)
Bolts: $12
Element: $11 (Camco via Amazon US)
Element housing: $15
Pump: $60
Controller: $35 (spare housing, and HS lying around. PID & SSRs from eBay and a RCD from a mate)

So about $265 so far, with it just about complete.

As for the sealant, it has all been apart about twenty times today chasing a sodding leak in the bottom whirlpool fitting. Bloody silicone seals bulge out and dont seal up properly. NFI why it is just that fitting too, the ball valve is fitted in the same way and seals up fine :S Time to either get funky with a lathe and machine up some recessed washers (have recessed nuts, but not enough thread to fit), or find larger ID washers to limit the outward expansion of the seal.


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## Eagleburger

I have tried to minimise threaded couplings and just use barbs and silicon hose.

Some nice rigs here.

I have found for mash having flow over element is not important. I use 2 x 3000watt ebay chaepies and have only had scorching when doing protien rests with no PID control. ie starting at 50degC. Mashing in at 60+ and have never had a problem. I now put the two elements in series when mashing and have PID control. According to limited math that is about half the amps and I am ready to try a protein rest again.


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## takai

All of the upstream seals are fine, it is the lower seal into the kettle that is the pain.


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## takai

Problem solved on getting it to seal.

Ended up converting a BSP tapered fitting to parallel with more thread and then using the recessed nuts i already had.






Went for a bit of lateral thinking, and the TIG. Should do that more often.

Now i have to pull it all apart and re-threadseal everything, because with all the pulling apart and refitting a few little leaks have appeared. Will avail myself of a new roll of pink plumbers tape and go for gold.


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## takai

After some frustration chasing leaks and aligning everything properly it is finally ready to go. Currently doing a full simulated run to let the new controller learn the tune, and to give everything a test run.











Just need to find the label maker for the controller.


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## takai

Well brew day cancelled today, but only because my wife organised a birthday BBQ for me. Instead i took the opportunity to etch the kettle with volume markings. First i made up a vinyl template:





Then did the electrolysis etching process:





No more pesky rulers for me now.


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## SBOB

nice...you can start a side business selling vinyl ruler markings


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## CoopsOz

Yes, I'll be your first customer.


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## Mr B

How did you make that?

Pretty nifty indeed


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## takai

Made using a vinyl cutter, vinegar, salt and a 12v power brick. Piece of cake... once you have a vinyl cutter


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## Mr B

Hehe hep the cutting part was my area of interest.


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## takai

Inaugural brew went pretty much flawlessly and I hit all of my numbers pretty much dead on.

Mashed in:





Malt pipe out and draining/raining:





Chilling and hop spider draining post boil:





Built up a good rolling boil throughout, and boil off was spot on calculations.

Only a couple of niggles, the main one being that i forgot to turn the pump off at the end of the chilling process, so it kept the trub in suspension for longer and didnt form as nice a cone. The other is that the drainage rack can get caught on the legs and that just makes a bit of a mess, plus i dont have anywhere to put it for draining anymore as it is larger than the bucket i used to use.

All of that is simple to fix. The only other thing im considering is putting a short length of drilled pipe on the end of the malt pipe feed so that it distributes more evenly around the malt pipe. Thoughts on that, is it worth it?


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## Matplat

QLDKEV just has a straight piece of copper pipe sticking straight out to just under the surface.... that's what I went with....

I was thinking creating a setup similar to yours i.e. pipe running round the circumference, and use a soldering iron or something to jab a load of holes, then plumb in the HLT and use it for sparging... but i'm not sure if im bothered really...


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## takai

Yeah, soldering iron would work, although i hate getting plastic on the nib of my good one. 

With the heavy silicone a 2mm drill bit would probably do the same though.


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## takai

All packs up quite compactly too:


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## takai

Gave it a run with a RIS today, 10.5kg of grain in the malt pipe and no issues whatsoever. Some slight caramelisation on the element, but came off really easily with steel wool. Win.

Wasnt even that full:


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## Matplat

Hey mate, a couple of questions....

I don't know if you have been following the thread 'tips for improving a wheat beer' but in that thread I expressed my woes due to the rather 'thin' tasting wheat that the first run of my system has produced.

One of the suspects in my current investigation into this saga is mash temperature. Instictively I would have put my temperature sensor in the malt pipe, however I have read that this is not correct as you want to put it where the temp in the system is highest. As a result I put mine right in the 'wort out' port as the tip of my heating element points at it and is only a cm or two away from it. So yeah, I'm just wondering where you have put yours?

The second question is, why do you have a float on the end of your return to the malt pipe? surely this just encourages hot side aeration?

Cheers, Matt


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## takai

My temp probe is low down close to the element and has the stream from the whirlpool return flowing towards it. You can see it poking out of the RHS in this picture:





Havent had any issues with thin beer yet, but will see how a wheat goes soon.

As for the float its to keep the return ontop of the malt pipe bed rather than sagging down into the grain bed. It doesnt spray wort as much as just let it return to the top of the malt pipe. Due to the lamina flow properties of wort viscosity liquid it reincorporates well without aeration.


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## takai

Brewed a wheat beer yesterday, no worries at all. So the starch conversion seems to be going well, and it builds up enough to boil off the hot break. That is the 6th brew through this setup, and all is going excellently. Its also a ton easier to clean than the old setup.

Much win.


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## Matplat

Good times! My most recent brew is 5 days into fermentation however i found that i boiled off about 7 litres doing a 90 min boil so OG was higher than expected. How is your boil off rate? What was your old harder to clean set-up? I find i spend about half an hour cleaning after i have filled the cube.


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## takai

Just little bits on the old setup, harder to access aspects of it, plus there was an extra item to clean for draining the bag, and then cleaning out the bag etc, element was harder to access too. Just those sort of niggly things.

Boil off rate is about 4.5L/h, lose just under 7L for a 90min boil.


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## SBOB

any links to those fittings you have in the pot
What are the bottom/top returns and whats the fitting in the end of the 90 degree on the outlet?

Also, hows the system going? with the prices of these pots on ebay im thinking of getting a couple and using a false bottom (as opposed to the angle grinder option) to build something similar


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## takai

SBOB said:


> any links to those fittings you have in the pot
> What are the bottom/top returns and whats the fitting in the end of the 90 degree on the outlet?
> 
> Also, hows the system going? with the prices of these pots on ebay im thinking of getting a couple and using a false bottom (as opposed to the angle grinder option) to build something similar


The bottom and top returns are from KK. They are 90deg 10mm outlets. The lower one is chopped in half and welded to a parallel 1/2 fitting so i could get it to seat in my preferred orientation without needing much tape. 

As for how its going, humming along quite well at the moment. Biggest niggle though is that i should have reversed the camlocks and put the cam ends on the hoses and the fixed ends on the pot. Clearance for the arms is a little tight sometimes. Overall it works fine though so im loathed to change it unless it starts causing issues.


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## Matplat

Have you noticed any staining of your pot?

I clean it with napisan immediately after each brew, but can see stains/etch marks from the wort level on the inside.

Just not sure if this is due to my cleaning regime, or the fact that it's a cheap pot....


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## rude

enoch said:


> I've gone with the 56/82 litre combo for a great grain father. My gf is a.bit small for some brews after a 50 litre mash tun and 100 litre boiler.
> Aim to use a double Hotplate under it for mashing and add an immersion for boil. I've got a spare domed false bottom I'll use in the malt pipe to start with and have a march pump and fittings from old systems.
> Will go simple gf style plumbing initially.
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpg
> I've got an open ardbir controller that will run it.


Gone big allright keep the photos descriptions coming enoch


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## enoch

rude said:


> Gone big allright keep the photos descriptions coming enoch


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1339-enochs-great-malt-mother/


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## enoch

Matplat said:


> Have you noticed any staining of your pot?
> 
> I clean it with napisan immediately after each brew, but can see stains/etch marks from the wort level on the inside.
> 
> Just not sure if this is due to my cleaning regime, or the fact that it's a cheap pot....


My cheap pots are pretty ordinary for rust stains. Left for a couple days with water in them before the build and all the seams rusted up a bit. Lots of cleaning and starsan but still wouldn't trust it for a fermenter on similar.


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## rude

enoch said:


> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1339-enochs-great-malt-mother/[/quote


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## takai

enoch said:


> My cheap pots are pretty ordinary for rust stains. Left for a couple days with water in them before the build and all the seams rusted up a bit. Lots of cleaning and starsan but still wouldn't trust it for a fermenter on similar.


I haven't noticed any rust stains, and thats after putting it away wet (emergency shutdown) and having to tear it down last night to rebuild.

Also the bottle sanitiser comes in handy here. 3hr soak in Perc, then manual scrub and rinse, followed by three runs through the sanitiser.


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## klangers

takai said:


> Ah i meant one for each pot not two per pot.... i see the confusion though.
> 
> Planning on using the 4500w dialled back to 2400w for domestic usage with an SSV-R. Should yield even lower watt density over the element, and makes for very cheap element replacements.



I know it's all working nicely so the point I'm about to make may be moot. Just intended for anyone else who is planning element installations.

Technically you're not dialling back power with a solid state relay. You're operating at full power for a lower % of the time (on off on off on off etc). The _effective_ power is 2400W into the kettle, but your circuits still need to be able to cope with full demand.


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## takai

klangers said:


> I know it's all working nicely so the point I'm about to make may be moot. Just intended for anyone else who is planning element installations.
> 
> Technically you're not dialling back power with a solid state relay. You're operating at full power for a lower % of the time (on off on off on off etc). The _effective_ power is 2400W into the kettle, but your circuits still need to be able to cope with full demand.


Not quite. That would be the case if i was using the SSR for a PID derived proportional power circuit. But in my case im using a variable voltage solid state relay to reduce the voltage (and therefore the amperage) to the element instead. I have two relays in my system, one is a plain SSR that works off the PID at 'full power' but effectively it is switching a lower voltage due to the SSV-R. Electrically it is doing sine wave clipping on the AC signal and shedding the remainder in heat.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=332


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## rude

So you can manually adjust you're wattage of you're element via the SCR with dial

While you're SSR switches you're element on & off via the PID

Have I got this right & if I have whats the benefit for doing it this way rather than controlling full wattage on off

Cheers Rude


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## takai

rude said:


> So you can manually adjust you're wattage of you're element via the SCR with dial
> 
> While you're SSR switches you're element on & off via the PID
> 
> Have I got this right & if I have whats the benefit for doing it this way rather than controlling full wattage on off
> 
> Cheers Rude


Effectively adjusting wattage. You are actually adjusting the voltage, but because the resistance of the heating element stays the same V=IR may be reorganised to highlight that you are effectively adjusting current flow.

The benefit for me is being able to use a readily available low watt density 4500W element on a standard home 10A circuit.


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## rude

Current is directly proportional to voltage & inversely proportional to resistance

No worries so how does you're boil go are you happy with it ?


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## takai

rude said:


> Current is directly proportional to voltage & inversely proportional to resistance
> 
> No worries so how does you're boil go are you happy with it ?


Yeah, it works quite well. If i was building it again i would try to get nested pots that are taller than they are wide, but that isnt a huge concern, still works pretty much flawlessly.

My main frustration with it is the plumbing and making sure everything is sealed up when i rebuild it (which i do every few months to clean it out). I did have a thought a while back about permanently sealing some of the pieces, but decided against it for cleaning reasons. 

The main thing im considering changing is the mash recirculation feed, as i wonder if it could be optimised so that it spreads the wort out over the grain bed better.


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## n87

takai said:


> The main thing im considering changing is the mash recirculation feed, as i wonder if it could be optimised so that it spreads the wort out over the grain bed better.


Im not sure that would really matter.
If you are doing a full volume mash, there should be wort above the grain, so its as distributed as its going to be.
The 'fresh' wort will partially mix with the wort sitting above the grain, and filter through evenly.

At least this is my theory, I have much the same setup as you, just bigger (82/56L)


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## takai

Yeah, that is my current thought too. Im going to put a camlock on it for better cleaning ability anyway so ill experiment with other wort delivery methods as part of that.


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## takai

Finally got around to modifying the return:






Put a camlock on the inner skin of the malt pipe, predominantly to aid in cleaning, and then made a new recirculation arm. Time to see whether hot side wort aeration is a thing...


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## takai

Slight update. Moved house, so a bit more room and no need to lug it up and down the stairs now. So i built a brew stand and a new controller for it:





Still fundamentally the same, still pumping out large quantities of beer


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