# Lagering In A Corny



## Bribie G (9/3/11)

In a few days time I'll be lagering a proposed comp entry (a Pilsner) and intend to lager it at fridge temp until probably the end of May. Whilst I've regularly cold conditioned beers for up to a month in Willow cubes I'm a bit suss on keeping a beer for many months in one. Does anyone here lager in cornies? I would guess that being SS and impervious to oxygen they would be a good bet. ? Would it benefit from carbing to a low fizz first before putting away?


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## fcmcg (9/3/11)

BribieG said:


> In a few days time I'll be lagering a proposed comp entry (a Pilsner) and intend to lager it at fridge temp until probably the end of May. Whilst I've regularly cold conditioned beers for up to a month in Willow cubes I'm a bit suss on keeping a beer for many months in one. Does anyone here lager in cornies? I would guess that being SS and impervious to oxygen they would be a good bet. ? Would it benefit from carbing to a low fizz first before putting away?


Bribie...i think you will be fine....you could always lager in one keg and then do a transfer
keg transfer
I just tapped a stout i did in october last year...if anything..imho , the beer was better...and i carbed it up before i put it away...it did need an extra "zing" up...but otherwise it was good to go
Cheers
Ferg


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## argon (9/3/11)

BribieG said:


> In a few days time I'll be lagering a proposed comp entry (a Pilsner) and intend to lager it at fridge temp until probably the end of May. Whilst I've regularly cold conditioned beers for up to a month in Willow cubes I'm a bit suss on keeping a beer for many months in one. Does anyone here lager in cornies? I would guess that being SS and impervious to oxygen they would be a good bet. ? Would it benefit from carbing to a low fizz first before putting away?




Most of the second half of my double batches are essentially "lagered" in a corny. At least for the duration of the first keg... say anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks before being tapped. I usually just purge them of O2, but keep them off the gas until needed. They definitely tend to be a bit clearer and have blended and aged nicely.


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## itmechanic (9/3/11)

I lager in corny kegs all the time, usually at about 1 degree celcius.

I often carbonate before lagering aswell.

Cheers,
Paul


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## TidalPete (9/3/11)

I do it all the time Bribie.
Why do you start so many trivial threads?  
I need a hand to paint the house if you're feeling bored.  

TP


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## Bribie G (9/3/11)

TidalPete said:


> I do it all the time Bribie.
> Why do you start so many trivial threads?
> I need a hand to paint the house if you're feeling bored.
> 
> TP



Trivial to yourself :icon_cheers: - however I feel that the often most mundane sounding threads may be of interest and instruction to newer brewers who haven't been round the traps for as long as we have. :icon_drunk: 
Also I was a bit unsure about lagering in cornys - I was expecting maybe a couple of replies along the lines of "don't do it, the dip tube and posts are probably rotten with Salmonella" or something along those lines. So corny it is. 

Pete, my clingwrap isn't bubbling - please help....


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## booargy (9/3/11)

My lager 275L fisher&Paykel (slim I think) second keg is a bit of a squeeze and 2 man lift.


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## TidalPete (9/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Pete, my clingwrap isn't bubbling - please help....



Is it Aldi clingwrap mate? If it is, there's the answer to your question. :lol: 

TP


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## Florian (9/3/11)

I have recently demoted all my willow cubes to no chill cubes only - no more lagering for them. There are so many adavantages with lagering in cornies, better oxygen barrier, easy to purge with Co2 etc.

I'm in the process to change my whole fermentation regime. Primary ferment in corny with antifoam, transfer to secondary corny, using the last bit of yeast action in combination with an adjustable pressure valve to naturally carbonate the beer, then polyclar and filter to another keg for lagering and consumption. I might even skip the secondary and carbonate straight in primary, then filter to lagering. 

Well, that's the idea anyway, will hopefully put it in place in the next few weeks, and then tweek out any issues that might occur.

Florian


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## insane_rosenberg (9/3/11)

> my clingwrap isn't bubbling - please help....



+1

I don't find this to be a mundane thread at all. I had always belived (because I read it somewhere) that force carbonated beers (stored in corny's) would suffer if not consumed within a few months.

Edit: grammar.


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## mxd (9/3/11)

BribieG said:


> In a few days time I'll be lagering a proposed comp entry (a Pilsner) and intend to lager it at fridge temp until probably the end of May. Whilst I've regularly cold conditioned beers for up to a month in Willow cubes I'm a bit suss on keeping a beer for many months in one. Does anyone here lager in cornies? I would guess that being SS and impervious to oxygen they would be a good bet. ? Would it benefit from carbing to a low fizz first before putting away?




I have largered in cornies and have done it 2 ways (both time served out of the same corny)

1) move from fermenter to corny, a bit of co2 burp etc.. then leave at 2 deg for a month then carb.

2) as above but leave it on gas at "serving" pressure for the month.



I found the first way to bit a bit more "hazy", could just be a coincidence ?


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## hoppinmad (9/3/11)

For what it's worth... I have listened to a lot of Brewstrong Q&A lately and pretty much the recommendation is to lager in kegs for many of the reasons mentioned above. Straight from primary to keg once fermentation is complete. Then cold condition for as long as you so desire.


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## Bribie G (9/3/11)

Yes, currently drinking a Kiwi Blonde that's been in the keg, in the kegerator, for a month as I've been trying to empty the other two so I went easy on it. So although it's in the kegerator on tap you could say that it has in reality been lagering all that time, and compared to a month ago it's frggn nectar of the beer gods:


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## bradsbrew (9/3/11)

What are the effects of lagering at serving pressure as to lagering purged but uncarbed?


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## jayse (9/3/11)

It proberly goes without saying but make sure your kegs and everything are properly cleaned and santized, take time to pull everything apart. You don't really worry so much putting beer in a keg to be drunk that week but if you know the beer is going to be in there for a long time its better to be thorough or else you might end up devastated.


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## waggastew (9/3/11)

Have a two lagers planned over the cooler months. I don't have a keg setup so I planned to lager in a secondary fermentor. Is this likely to cause problems? Should I:

1. Keep it in primary (on yeast cake) for 1 month at 1degC
2. Transfer it to a secondary fermentor and lager for 1-2 months at 1degC
3. Transfer it to two cubes and lager it for 1-2 months at 1 degC
4. Bottle it straight from primary and lager in the bottle for 1-2 months at 1 degC?

Sorry to highjack the Corny thread.


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## gone_fishing_ (9/3/11)

Great post Jayse. There are a lot of "nooks and cranies" in a corny that can harbour spoilage organisms that would otherwise not get the time to raise their ugly flavour profiles.

Lagering in a corny......clean, clean....clean...sanitise, fill then store. 

Nothing worse than a well lagered vinegar.
gf


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## Goofinder (9/3/11)

My kegs take on average 4 months from filling to be emptied, during which time they are kept in the keg fridge. Generally they will only get gas (other than head pressure to ensure they seal) after another keg blows as I have room for 5 kegs and only 4 gas disconnects.

The last glass is always the best.


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## black_labb (9/3/11)

gone_fishing_ said:


> Nothing worse than a well lagered vinegar.
> gf




You dont want chill haze in vinegar, wouldn't be to style.


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## jakub76 (10/3/11)

waggastew said:


> Should I:
> 
> 1. Keep it in primary (on yeast cake) for 1 month at 1degC
> 2. Transfer it to a secondary fermentor and lager for 1-2 months at 1degC
> ...



:icon_offtopic: I also don't have a kegging setup yet so I'd go #4. I bottle straight from primary, leave at ambient for 2 weeks then crash to -1C for 3 days to get all the haze up. I then leave the bottles at 4C for as long as I can...yeast character starts to dissipate after 10 days but the beer flavour peaks around 6 weeks. If you left it in primary for months you'd be risking yeast autolisys (yuk) or not having enough yeast left to carbonate...or maybe enough but it might take ages. I like to get all of the major yeast activity done in one hit then it's all about cold conditioning.


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## dougsbrew (11/3/11)

i thought i'd throw in my 2 cents worth. 
i wouldnt condition in a corny for long periods bribie. 
my reason being that movement of liquid over steel 
creates electrolysis. how this would effect beer i'm not sure. 
even though its in fridge which lets say comes on at 4c and 
off at 2c creates movement(warmer beer rises, colder beer falls). 
i find that the last beer i pour out of my corny keg starts to 
take on a slight steel taste. 
lets look at a VB can(dirty word on this forum). the inside of 
the can is coated with a polymer to stop alloy effecting beer. 
a can of baked beans will be coated inside with a white film, 
once again to stop steel effecting the product. 
i dont know if cornies have a polymer coat inside, im thinking not. 
therefore IMO my top choices for lagering for long periods. 
1. glass carboy/ stubbies. 
2. plastic cube/fermenter (older being better(no new plastic flavour)). 
3. corny.


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## unrealeous (11/3/11)

dougsbrew said:


> therefore IMO my top choices for lagering for long periods.
> 1. glass carboy/ stubbies.
> 2. plastic cube/fermenter (older being better(no new plastic flavour)).
> 3. corny.


hmm - interesting point of view - but I'd have to questing how much electrolysis goes on with stainless steal in the absence of oxygen.
I'd agree with you on the glass point, but my preference would be lagering in a corny over plastic - my cubes get that plastic smell (when empty) so I always wonder what chemicals they leach into the beer. Anyway - each to their own.

[Edit - Actually plastic is no good for long term lagering as it is not impervious to oxygen]


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## Bribie G (11/3/11)

The Czech breweries used to use huge wooden barrels lined with pitch but nowadays use SS, but maybe it's coated.


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## raven19 (11/3/11)

Give me a positively pressurised vessel any day of the week. So nothing outside can get in to ruin my beer.


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## egolds77 (11/3/11)

All the brewerys around the world who larger in their stainless steel conicals must be doing it all wrong I guess


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## dougsbrew (11/3/11)

unrealeous said:


> hmm - interesting point of view - but I'd have to questing how much electrolysis goes on with stainless steal in the absence of oxygen.
> I'd agree with you on the glass point, but my preference would be lagering in a corny over plastic - my cubes get that plastic smell (when empty) so I always wonder what chemicals they leach into the beer. Anyway - each to their own.
> 
> [Edit - Actually plastic is no good for long term lagering as it is not impervious to oxygen]




i'm no scientist but their is 2 oxygen atoms in water that is in contact with the stainless. 
my work on boats, lots of stainless - electrolysis problems. they spend lots of money 
preventing this problem with electronic gadgets and coatings. 
as for cubes, mine is many years old, i cant detect any plastic smells/flavour. 
but i take your point, without having more info on hand 3 could be a better than option2.


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## dougsbrew (11/3/11)

Elton said:


> All the brewerys around the world who larger in their stainless steel conicals must be doing it all wrong I guess




do they lager for long periods of time in stainless steel elton? name one. 
my beleif is that its a short period of time as time is money. 
generally 2 weeks and its in a plastic coated can or a bottle. 
lets look at wine brewers, generally made in stainless, breifly conditioned 
then pumped into casks and bottles that can be purchased for under $10. 
good wines are transfered into wooden barrels to condition, not that they 
cant afford stainless vessels, they choose not to condition in stainless. 
wines conditioned this way can fetch big $$$. 
destillers also condition in wood as compared to stainless. 
for those of us in brissy, the breakfast creek hotel does a four x bitter 
coditioned in a wooden barrel(only place in aus to do this), its a great drop. 
dont get me wrong, stainless is great, perfect for home brewing. 
however i beleive that its not the best choice for long periods of storage.


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## argon (11/3/11)

Budweiser age for 3 weeks in stainless tanks filled with some beechwood.

Edit; heineken also lager in stainless bright tanks for 40 days


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## dougsbrew (11/3/11)

argon said:


> Budweiser age for 3 weeks in stainless tanks filled with some beechwood.
> 
> Edit; heineken also lager in stainless bright tanks for 40 days




really 40 days, where did you get this informtion from? 
just for the record to previous post my defiition of long periods is >3 months. 

edit- just doing the sums. say 10 days brewing 40 days conditioning=50 days. 
thats only 7 brews a year


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## Florian (11/3/11)

I'm no scientist either but two things I would like to add to this:




dougsbrew said:


> lets look at a VB can(dirty word on this forum). the inside of
> the can is coated with a polymer to stop alloy effecting beer.
> a can of baked beans will be coated inside with a white film,
> once again to stop steel effecting the product.



VB baked bean cans are not made out of stainless steel like cornies are. From memory the polymer coating prevents oxydisation once the can is opened.



dougsbrew said:


> my work on boats, lots of stainless - electrolysis problems. they spend lots of money
> preventing this problem with electronic gadgets and coatings.


When boaties talk about electrolysis it's usually in conjunction with salt water. If you only use your boat in fresh water there are no issues with electrolysis.

Actually, while typing this, I just quickly refreshed my school knowledge, and came accross this from here:

_Electrolytic Corrosion (Electrolysis) occurs when dissimilar metals are in contact in the presence of an electrolyte, such as water (moisture) containing very small amounts of acid. (...)
When any two metals in this list are in contact, with an electrolytic present, the one with the lower number is corroded. 

_So what would be your second metal which is in direct contact with your liquid then, apart from the stainless steel present in cornies?_

_For now, I won't believe this electrolysis theory until someone explains this properly._
_

EDIT: grammar


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## Florian (11/3/11)

dougsbrew said:


> edit- just doing the sums. say 10 days brewing 40 days conditioning=50 days.
> thats only 7 brews a year



That's if you have only one tank available. I somehow think that Heineken has a few more than that... 

They could brew ten times a day and still lager for 40 days if they have the right amount of vessels. I could also imagine that they blend several batches together into one huge lagering tank.


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## haysie (11/3/11)

BribieG said:


> In a few days time I'll be lagering a proposed comp entry (a Pilsner) and intend to lager it at fridge temp until probably the end of May. Whilst I've regularly cold conditioned beers for up to a month in Willow cubes I'm a bit suss on keeping a beer for many months in one. Does anyone here lager in cornies? I would guess that being SS and impervious to oxygen they would be a good bet. ? Would it benefit from carbing to a low fizz first before putting away?



I lager in kegs, I have a weizenbock some 6 months old + that on a treat night I`ll attach. Horses for courses i.e fridge space, keg space etc. Nowadays I do most my post fermentation in a keg because the utility costs were killing me to cc in a seperate fridge. I have lotsa kegs  and a few of these have cut back dip tubes for that very reason of either lagering or finishing a stubborn yeast. 
I dont think carbing the beer before putting away is nesacary, as long as the air is burped, you will have a better environment than the fermenter.


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## TidalPete (11/3/11)

Florian said:


> That's if you have only one tank available. I somehow think that Heineken has a few more than that...
> 
> They could brew ten times a day and still lager for 40 days if they have the right amount of vessels. I could also imagine that they blend several batches together into one huge lagering tank.



+1
You beat me to it Florian & I agree with you 100% re your Post 30 on galvanic corrosion. 

TP


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## haysie (11/3/11)

TidalPete said:


> +1
> You beat me to it Florian & I agree with you 100% re your Post 30 on galvanic corrosion.
> 
> TP



 I dont get it.


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## dougsbrew (11/3/11)

Florian said:


> I'm no scientist either but two things I would like to add to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



once again i'm no sceintist, hopefully one can comment. 
maybe the small amounts of zinc potasium copper etc in tap water can make this happen. 
maybe metals in the manufacture of stainless such as nickel could be the other electrode. 
if i had more time on my hands maybe i would research this further and come up with an answer. 
you may have missed point about vb-bb can. why are they coated? stainless is a steel alloy. 
i noted that you say its to stop oxidisation upon opening. a can of beer isnt open that long(hopefully  ). 
more info can be found here if interested about stainless makeup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel


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## Florian (11/3/11)

dougsbrew said:


> you may have missed point about vb-bb can. why are they coated? stainless is a steel alloy.


I haven't missed your point. I pointed out that you are comparing aluminium cans (VB) with stainless steel kegs. Am not sure how comparable they are in terms of corrosion. And I'm not saying that stainless can't corrode at all, I'm just not sure how easy and to which extend compared to aluminium. 

As to baked beans etc, from memory they are coated to prevent corrosion caused by oxygen once the cans are opened. That's why it's recommended to refill the contents of an opened* uncoated* can into a separate (e.g. plastic) container if not used all at once. (reference: read the fine print on your average Aldi tuna tin for example)

EDIT: added uncoated


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## TidalPete (11/3/11)

haysie said:


> I dont get it.



haysie,

It means quite simply that I agree with Florian re his posts 30 AND 31.
We'll talk about this in more depth on the 2nd.   

TP


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## dougsbrew (14/3/11)

I stumbled accross this link whilst on homedestiller.org website last night.
written by john palmer who we know for his excellent work in how to brew. 
as it relates to the discussion we were having i thought i'd insert a few 
sentences from the document of most relevance. the full document can be found here. http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/brewcorr.txt 

Beer is corrosive. Not only is beer acidic but it contains live microfauna 
which can cause bio-fouling and bio-corrosion. Beer can be corrosive to the 
tanks and fluid lines used in the brewing process, and it can be corrosive to 
the brewery building too.
Galvanic Corrosion
All corrosion is basically galvanic (over-generalization). The electrochemical 
difference between two metals in an electrolyte causes electrons to flow and 
ions to be created. These ions combine with oxygen or other elements to create 
corrosion products. An electrolyte can be defined as any liquid containing dissolved ions ex. tap water. 
Stainless Steel
The corrosion inhibitor in stainless steel is the passive oxide layer that 
protects the surface. Passivated appearance will be lightly grayed. 
The 300 series alloys commonly used in the brewing industry are much more 
corrosion resistant and when passivated are basically inert to the beer. 
Passivation is a process in which oxidizing acids are used to build up the 
protective oxide layer. Its what makes Stainless stainless. These steels do 
have their Achilles Heel and that heel is Chlorine, which is common in cleaning solutions. 

theres some good info in his document. 
look out for scratching the bottom of your corny with dip tube, definetly dont use a 
scourer and avoid using bleach.


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## thelastspud (14/3/11)

dougsbrew said:


> destillers also condition in wood as compared to stainless.



This is nothing to do with oxidation lots of the flavours and all of the colours come out of the wood.


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## dougsbrew (14/3/11)

Bradley said:


> This is nothing to do with oxidation lots of the flavours and all of the colours come out of the wood.



yes i am aware of this, but would you know if there would be any adverse 
effects of long term storage of distallite in a stainless steel vessel. 

Edit- sorry guys getting a little OT here, lets change distallite to beer...


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## thelastspud (14/3/11)

Well no I'm not sure but I thought when you distil something all the metals get left behind
so there wouldn't be anything to cause the rusting effect between the two metals.


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## Bribie G (14/3/11)

Anyway she went into the corny last night and I'll report in May :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:


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## dougsbrew (14/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Anyway she went into the corny last night and I'll report in May :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:




good stuff, which comp is it that your considering entering it into?


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## Bribie G (14/3/11)

I'll be having a crack at the Queensland, and if it does any good the State. Last year my lagers didn't do too badly (second in the Pale Lagers in the State) but I really left my run too late and brewed in June and they only got a couple of weeks cold conditioning - wouldn't even dignify it by using the word "lagering" :lol:


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## dougsbrew (14/3/11)

good luck with the comp. i have a local comp in sunshine coast hinterland coming up in august. 
my beer last year wasnt up to standard so didnt enter, but hopefully will have one worthy this year.


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## kevo (4/6/16)

Reviving an old thread...

If I'm planning to lager in a keg - would I also look to take a portion of the yeast with it into the keg? Plan to then transfer into another keg, leaving the yeast behind.

My understanding is that the yeast has a role to play in the layering 'process?'

Cheers


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## twinathon (8/6/16)

kevo said:


> Reviving an old thread...
> 
> If I'm planning to lager in a keg - would I also look to take a portion of the yeast with it into the keg? Plan to then transfer into another keg, leaving the yeast behind.
> 
> ...


I haven't brewed a ton of lagers so someone is more than welcome to disagree, but my thought is there's going to be enough yeast left in suspension of the beer for the lagering process to occur properly. I'd say don't worry about taking any settled yeast into the keg and let it lager and then serve in the same keg. Saves another transfer that risks oxidation, You'd hate to invest so much time in a top quality lager only for it to get oxidized on the second racking.


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## dr K (8/6/16)

If after say three weeks of fermentation at 8-10C your lager is bright then I reckon you have a problem !
Otherwise carefully transfer (maybe flush the receiving keg with CO2) the beer cause its full of yeast and go for it...a simple hint is to use some CO2 to just seal the keg after you lock it away, the CO2 generated during algering (not a lot) will help to naturally carbonate the beer.
K


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## Fraser's BRB (11/8/16)

Reviving an old thread again.

So I plan to lager my Octoberfest in a corny (transfer this weekend). It's done its primary ferment at 10deg, been raised to 18deg for 48 hours diacetyl rest and is currently being dropped a few degrees a day down to fridge temps. Lagering will be almost exactly 2 months, to be served at (appropriately) an Octoberfest event. 

I planned on burping the keg and then using a relief valve on the gas post of the corny to maintain some pressure but relieve excess. 

Any ideas on what pressure to set the relief to?


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## Dae Tripper (11/8/16)

I would set it to your serving pressure. For me that is appox 12psi.


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## Bribie G (11/8/16)

I now have a dedicated lagering fridge with three kegs (shortened dip tubes) that have been lagering since the middle of June at 3 degrees. I drew off some beers for bottling a few weeks ago and they are now entered in a comp, then put kegs back in fridge.
When I bottled off for the comp the beer had a nice fine spritz to it but no foaming or undue carb.

Before posting I just went out to the brauhaus and checked them out and gave a bit of a burp to all three via the PRV. Nothing spectacular, a bit of a pfffft

Personally I wouldn't bother with a valve, just let it do its thing and maybe a quick burp once a fortnight. At this stage my lagers are clearly just cleaning up and getting poonced up, not too much active fermentation going on.


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## scooterism (12/8/16)

Interesting thread after all..


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## RdeVjun (13/8/16)

I agree with Bribie, not much if any fermentation occurs during lagering, it's pretty static so no adjustable relief valve would be required.
If it were me I'd just gas it up after initial filling to seal the Corny, leave it to lager as is until a week before serving and then put it on the gas. Check it during lagering though, just to be sure pressure is being maintained.
Alternatively, if convenient just leave it on the gas throughout, can't see that being harmful.


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## Bribie G (13/8/16)

Traditionally in Euro breweries they ferment in primary down to a certain gravity (check Braukaiser for details) then transfer to lagering tanks to finish off. Considering that no commercial brewery in their right mind would tie up their primary fermenters for months, I'd guess there's a certain "free up the primary fermenters ASAP" directive going on there. 
If you read Bronzed Brews you'll also pick up on the idea that one reason Australian breweries switched almost entirely to lagers after the Second World War was because having lots of beer in lots of lager tanks enabled them to even out seasonal demand swings, for example during heatwaves where ale brewing wasn't flexible enough and it must have been a logistical headache to match batches to demand if you only did ales. 

Anyway back on topic as home brewers we don't have that imperative to get the beer out of primary while still not attenuated. Of course we shouldn't leave it too long on the primary yeast cake but as opposed to a trad German brewery my lagers, for example, are pretty much attenuated when I transfer to my tanks. 

I'd opine (now that's a good old word) that the only time you'd need a spunding valve would be if you are following commercial Euro lager brewing to the letter.


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## Fraser's BRB (13/8/16)

Cheers guys, this one will have been on primary long enough to achieve pretty close to fg by the time it's down to lager temps.

I'll gas it in keg to seal, I will use the relief valve set at about 12psi. It serves a dual purpose as it has a gauge also. As I won't be able to have the gas hooked up through lagering, it will give me a quick visual indication that it's holding pressure.


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