# water - a dirty secret?



## Pickaxe

Curious as to why water is not discussed more. 38 topics on this forum, compared to hundreds for most others. 

Don't get me wrong, there is great information around about water chem, water adds etc, but it doesnt seem to rate highly in the overall discussion. 

Is water too hard? Or is it that the benefits of water chem aren't worth the perceived benefit? 

?


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## manticle

Too hard for most.


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## bum

Pickaxe said:


> Curious as to why water is not discussed more. 38 topics on this forum


I haven't checked but is it 38 threads in the pointless water forum or 38 water threads in total? (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.)

People always use the wrong forum and there's little evidence of anyone going back and ensuring historical threads (or current threads) are in the right place.

There's lots of water discussion about the place.

Forbidden acronym.


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## Pickaxe

So I'm finding.


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## Northside Novice

I have used the old wives tale of, if the water out of your tap tastes good to you then it will taste good in your beer.
obviously if you are capable and anal enough, you can replicate any water profile in the world, to hopefully replicate any beer/style in the world accurately. I think most of us are happy enough with the tap water considering most of us are in capital cities with fairly drinkable water from the tap.
I aspire to becoming a water chemist with my brewing one day . 

by other forums , they probably have a lot more members so I would guese that the water queries might be population percentage type of thing? or we are just Australian and couldn't give too much of a phuck ?


edit, agree with bum, there are water topics/post/queries quite often on ahb . someone has started an aus wide water profile data base somewhere on here too .


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## Pickaxe

Funny the information to bullshit ratio is off the charts to information in the 'water' sub forum. Might focus on water chem for a while... Hehehe


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## Pickaxe

I'm a bit in for a penny in for a pound, so if going ag means learning a bit of water chem too, and my beer improves then im keen.

Just thought water might rate higher, but it seems we spend more time worrying about hop adds, but if your water won't hold your hops why bother?


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## Pickaxe

Be keen to see the nation water profile, any links?


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## bum

If you're just starting out in AG, NN's comment about water being good enough to drink being good enough to brew with is fine. Nail down your process then play with water chemistry. You can totally make great beer without ever resorting to the black arts. Nerd-out over it later on.


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## Pickaxe

I'm nerding. 

Shame the wiki is still down.


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## bum

Someone from Melbourne Brewers (sorry (to the author), but I cannot recall who it was) posted a link to a pretty good document they made for water treatment for beginners. Not super simplified but not confusing. I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about and can furnish a link.

[EDIT: for what it is worth (maybe not a lot, I'm not at the nerd-out stage yet), I tend to follow TB's advice in this thread with my brewing: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66452-is-there-an-error-in-brewing-water-calculators/]


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## Feldon

bum said:


> Someone from Melbourne Brewers (sorry (to the author), but I cannot recall who it was) posted a link to a pretty good document they made for water treatment for beginners. Not super simplified but not confusing. I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about and can furnish a link.
> 
> [EDIT: for what it is worth (maybe not a lot, I'm not at the nerd-out stage yet), I tend to follow TB's advice in this thread with my brewing: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66452-is-there-an-error-in-brewing-water-calculators/]


Might be this doc? 

View attachment Key Concepts in Water Treatment - Melbourne Brewers Club.pdf


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## bum

That's the one. Thanks. I forgot how Melbourne-centric is it is though. Should still be a good overview for you, Pickaxe. You've probably seen a lot of it here already but I felt like it gathered a lot of information in a pretty straight-forward way when I first read it.


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## anthonyUK

This article is a fairly good intro - http://www.brewersfriend.com/2013/04/12/brewing-water-treatment-in-600-words/


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## slcmorro

I got your pun, Manticle.


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## Bizier

The thing about exceptionally excellent beers, commercial or homebrewed, is that the water is perfect for what they are aiming to achieve and it is very noticeable if you are familiar with tasting for water.
The thing with merely acceptable commercial and homebrewed beer is that there are usually things which should be fixed as a priority before the water.

I am in Perth and often find myself in arguments over the merit of the local water supply. I see no positive attributes with our water here for brewing, drinking or even using as process water because it destroys machinery, I can't even hose stuff without it leaving a noticeable film.

It is good that you are thinking about your water as part of the process. Remember: calcium, calcium, calcium!


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## QldKev

Pickaxe said:


> Curious as to why water is not discussed more. 38 topics on this forum, compared to hundreds for most others.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there is great information around about water chem, water adds etc, but it doesnt seem to rate highly in the overall discussion.
> 
> *Is water too hard?* Or is it that the benefits of water chem aren't worth the perceived benefit?
> 
> ?



We've got a soft water supply here


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## slash22000

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

This was where I started with water chemistry. That and Google.


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## Tex083

Dont know if you have beersmith or not but in Beersmith 2 you can make a water profile and use it in your beer recipe.
Once added to the recipe it will ask if you want the "salts" added to the recipe, click YES and BAM its done.
I use RODI water to brew with even when living in Melbourne because chlorine is bad for beer and I make RODI water for my salt water aquarium anyway.

Using a combo of Palmer's How to Brew and other online things I have entered 3 main types of beers I berw:
Pale - Ca 50, Mg10, Na 50 SO4 50 Ch 0 HCO3 50 (PPM)
Amber - Ca 50, Mg10, Na 50 SO4 50 Ch 0 HCO3 125 (PPM)
Dark - Ca 50, Mg10, Na 50 SO4 50 Ch 0 HCO3 200 (PPM)
So in my amber ale I added 0.39g Gypsum, 0.60g Calcium Chloride and 0.57g Calcium Carbonate, on brew day got a bit drunk and forgot to check mash pH but on the last mash it was 5.4 (temp corrected) so im happy with the way beersmith does all the work form me.


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## Greg.L

One important thing with water is the concept of "terroir". Many people on ahb are trying to copy a style, of course you will need to make your water suitable for that style. Another approach is to make your own individual beer style, within the broad categories of ale, lager, porter etc. Your own water can have an important contribution to making your beer absolutely unique. This is more applicable for people who live in the country.


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## Rowy

bum said:


> I haven't checked but is it 38 threads in the pointless water forum or 38 water threads in total? (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.)People always use the wrong forum and there's little evidence of anyone going back and ensuring historical threads (or current threads) are in the right place.There's lots of water discussion about the place.Forbidden acronym.


Speaking of pointless posts......whoops you were talking about threads.......my bad


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## bum

Rowy said:


> Speaking of pointless posts......whoops you were talking about threads.......my bad


It's okay. We're used to it by now.

Move on to the lights for a bit, yeah?


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## Pickaxe

Appreciate people's input, there are some good sources and I'm reading up. Thanks manticle esp for your input and article.

Put basically, and from what ive read, water chem is no more or less complex than learning about mashing basics. With every brew things improve and the more I read, the more little mistakes arr corrected.

My original post was more a question as to why water isn't discussed more often, but seems I was wrong. But, I'm surprised still that is not discussed more. And is only a rare recipe I see people adding salts etc. Or discussing it as part of a recipe aim - ie. Hardness, calcium, sulfate levels etc. Yep, I'm nerding out, and really keen to see what some basic chem can do, keep reading and keep learning.

Guess as cb said, I'm gonna give it a go and at the end, I'll still have beer.


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## Khellendros13

I have been on a bit of a water chem crash course over the last week or so. Just moved to AG, so thought I may as well make an attempt at the water side too.

What I have discovered, is the majority ignore it for the most part. Now it obviously matters, considering the history of beer and what comes from each unique brewing locale.

Make sure you get scales that measure in .1gm increments. Normal kitchen scales suck


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## Mardoo

Cor blimey, Manticle's paper is the shizz!!! (Link earlier in the thread.) I've skimmed it a number of times but for the first time today sat down and read it properly. Really well put together. My problem has been sorting out what's important and what's not and that paper makes it explicitly clear.

Thirstyboy's advice in Bum's linked thread is awesome too'


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## Adr_0

A few comments:
1. If you're just moving up to AG you can stuff a beer much more severely than any incremental change you will get from changing water, so you should focus on your process and equipment before adding extra layers of complexity. Adding extra complexity usually invites something else to go wrong, particularly at the new stage where you don't understand the finer points of each part of brewing.
2. If the water 'tastes good out of the tap', that's ok... but perspective is a powerful thing. As Bizier basically said, it can be [one of the] differences between average/good beer and exceptional beer. To be fair, a brewer that understand their water normally understands fermentation, recipe building and wort production pretty bloody well. 
3. If the water is off, you definitely notice it. If the water is ballpark for hardness/alkalinity balance you are 90% there. If the water is in the correct half of the field and there aren't any alarming numbers for the style or the effect you're going for, then I would say it's 100% there. The crux of this is don't chase ppm differences. You typically only need to add one or two things; don't overthink it but totally understand the impact your addition is having to the style.


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## pyrosx

Pickaxe said:


> Be keen to see the nation water profile, any links?


This is the crux of the problem right here - there's no such thing as a *national* water profile - water is completely different city to city, and even suburb to suburb sometimes within cities.

This leads onto the biggest problem - what's in your water? How do you know? WIthout a correct base water profile, and additions you make a worse than wild-arsed-guesses.

On the upside, I just did a quick google, and found that Sydney Water has released a lot more info than they had last time I looked - http://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/water-the-environment/how-we-manage-sydney-s-water/waterquality/typical-drinking-water-analysis/index.htm


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## manticle

I think he meant the thread that discusses various water profiles within the nation rather than an overall 'national 'water.

Forgive me if it's already been posted. I couldn't see it.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/31331-big-post-of-water-around-australia/


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## slash22000

I wonder, is there anywhere in Australia that does cheap water sample testing? Reading yank forums they seem to be able to get their tap water tested for minerals etc at a lab for reasonable prices.


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## Droopy Brew

Most councils have labs that will be able to do a basic Anion and Cation test at a pretty cheap rate. Commercial labs will as well but at much higher rates.


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## Parks

I reckon the No. 1 thing with your town water is getting rid of the Chlorine and Chloramine. Most of the city water reports I've seen are pretty OK for mineral content, certainly good enough not to worry about it in your early days of all grain brewing.

I've spent the last 6 ish months getting my head around the water chemistry. It's not for the faint hearted but when striving for perfection it's definitely required.


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## GABBA110360

I'm only new to brewing.
about 14 months but from day dot I've used a .45 micron water filter for anything to go into my beer.
there absolutely nothing wrong with the tap water here I just want to purest water I can for my beer.
a cartridge lasts 6 months till it slows normally
ken


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## Byran

That Sydney water analysis is great it shows the exact particulates and salts in the water from which ever treatment plant it comes from. I seem to be using the prospect plant in my area and the water is very soft so is ok for pilsners as is. The Monochloramine smell seems to leave the brew in the heating process but apparently it does not leave the water even with filtration or boiling. http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/disinfection/chloramine/pdfs/Q29.pdf

My understanding is that you add Calcium sulfate to accent flavours for hops and bitter beers, and calcium carbonates for dark beers to help raise the PH from the acidic dark grains.
And more calcium is good for yeast health.
The new update on beersmith allows you to put in your home water profile in PPM for each salt, then it calculates the addition amount for you to achieve the desired water hardness or profile. 
Pretty bloody good if you can be arsed learning how to use it.


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## Pickaxe

Ez water calc ad mentioned is great.
Found my calcium levels and sulphate levels are low, ph high, from water profile from supplier and other sources. Will test and alter mash ph, got some calcium chloride and gypsum on order, lactic acid too. Brew day next week should prove interesting. Looking fwd to seeing results to flavour and eff.


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## Pickaxe

Might try beersmith water profile if I start to level out what is going on, but ez water calculator is nice and simple, keeps things less complicated in my view, don't want beersmith getting more complicated than it is already.


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## Byran

I just went through the whole water tool on beersmith because I had to reinstall it and it reset all my info. It seems really well setup , you just put in the PPM for each mineral in your home water( based on info from the suppliers) 
then you can choose a water profile that you would like to replicate, there is a long list. And it calculates the best additions for your batch .
And you can save the settings for a quick recipe and it adds the additions for you. Wow its easy to use.


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## Pickaxe

Sounds good. Might have to give it a go.


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## Bizier

Seriously, the beersmith water tool is as simple as it gets for calculating mineral additions and it shows how much your base water can be ABOVE your target profile.

*cough* Perth and chlorides


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## mackayboi

I like to run my water (rain water or city connected supply) through a water filter. 
If the taste of the water is pleasant, then it would probably be good for the brew.

Anyone had experience (bad or good) of the use of rain water?


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## wereprawn

mackayboi said:


> I like to run my water (rain water or city connected supply) through a water filter.
> If the taste of the water is pleasant, then it would probably be good for the brew.
> 
> Anyone had experience (bad or good) of the use of rain water?


No. But I am planning to collect some rainwater in the wet this year. Heard good reports about it's use.


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## Dan2

mackayboi said:


> I like to run my water (rain water or city connected supply) through a water filter.
> If the taste of the water is pleasant, then it would probably be good for the brew.
> 
> Anyone had experience (bad or good) of the use of rain water?


I use it (filtered). And know others who do. Pretty much a blank canvas so you can treat it as RO and build your own profile


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## mackayboi

It's interesting, on face value, one would think rain water would be the best for home brew. No chemicals / additives and water as pure as it probably could get, straight from the clouds.

It is only after reading this thread that there maybe more to water, especially with water hardness, minerals and ions just to name a few.

My question is this, does the type of water make a significant difference to the quality of the end product? Or is it more to replicate the flavor in a name brand beer in question?


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## manticle

Depends on the water in question. Can make a massive difference, can just make a small difference. Definitely makes a difference of one sort or another though.


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## jotaigna

I studied this whole water thing mainly to hit correct pH levels for my mash and achieve proper conversion.
I use palmer's EZ water calculator which enables me to achive this and after a few tries, I've got the hang of it.

In a way, this is still my approach: add just enough salts to manipulate pH and WALK AWAY!.

Otherwise, buy a pH meter, a chemestry degree and several hours to deconstruct water and rebuild it again and achieve acidity the old fashion way (ie an acid rest).

There is no middle ground IMHO and this clearly divides brewers into two campsroffessor nutheads and "canbebotheredtratingwater"ers.


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## manticle

Acid rests aren't that effective unless done for hours as far as I'm aware.

I follow methods quite similar to yours (although it helps understanding what and why) but I think you overstate the complexity of someone filtering their water then adding salts and/or acid. No need for a chemistry degree.


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## syl

People using the EZ Water calc, did you just go on the Melbourne water mean levels or actually test for everything?


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## GalBrew

syl said:


> People using the EZ Water calc, did you just go on the Melbourne water mean levels or actually test for everything?


I use the EZ calc and go off the mean levels for the water coming from Silvan reservoir, which is what supplies my house.


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## Pickaxe

So I've run a couple of brews with Salt adds.
Last brew I could measure the pH, hit 5.4 pH in the Mash with a 7gm add of both CACl and Gypsum to the strike water.
This is Noosa water in case anyone local is interested.

This was in a basic Aussie Ale.
23L
4.5 kg Pale Malt BB
.25kg Carared
(forgot to order wheat malt this brew - derp)

7gm of each was added to 25L strike water, 3gm of each added to sparge water @ 11.5L.

Added 1/4kg dex, and Hopped with POR pellets at 60 min. Really basic recipe.

Will post tasting results in a few weeks. Have a previous brew I added 5gm of each to strike, 2.5gm of each to sparge, basic ale, but hopped with Motueka @ 60, 20, 15 & 0 : 30, 20, 20, 20. Should show me the effect on hop prescence, flavour etc.

May have improved my efficiency - which is up to a solid 70%, up from 60 to 65% at best, however, this could be down to me getting more experienced with my setup and processes now. Makes it hard to know if hitting my numbers was helped by the salt additions, but i guess its all part of getting a best practice regime happening.


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## manticle

CaCl2 or dr smurto will get you.


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## Pickaxe

Does Dr smurto look anything like Walt?
******* chem Nazi.


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## jotaigna

manticle said:


> Acid rests aren't that effective unless done for hours as far as I'm aware.
> 
> I follow methods quite similar to yours (although it helps understanding what and why) but I think you overstate the complexity of someone filtering their water then adding salts and/or acid. No need for a chemistry degree.


Yes I didn't express myself well.
All I meant to say is that i think the learning curve is steeper for water chem than for other brewing aspects, and perhaps that's why there is less activity in the forum than for other topics as per op's question.

Syl. When I started adding salts I measured with ph strips. After a couple of goes it was clear than calculations land you pretty much where you want and now I don't. I get about 75% efficiency for a 1.048og.


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## brentice

Im not a big fan of water. After all fish fark in it....True story


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## syl

I am starting to take it on board now, love the PDF linked on page 1.

Going to do a water test and have a water tester, some pH stabiliser, calcium chloride and calcium sulphate on order.

Will do my first adjusting on this weekend's brew!


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## hsb

pyrosx said:


> On the upside, I just did a quick google, and found that Sydney Water has released a lot more info than they had last time I looked - http://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/water-the-environment/how-we-manage-sydney-s-water/waterquality/typical-drinking-water-analysis/index.htm


This has me confused. It says


> Sydney and eastern suburbs, south to the Georges River - Can be supplied from Prospect and/or Sydney Desalination Plant at Kurnell


but the supplied link is to 'Potts Hill'.

When I open the Potts Hill link, the PDF Title says 'Water analysis: North Richmond water supply system' but the text says 'Water analysis: Potts Hill water supply system' ???

Other areas have links to Prospect North, South and East. Which one is the right one?

I'd just got to thinking about water when I ended up taking a bit of a break from brewing.
There's a lot to digest in making beer and for me, water was bottom of that list but now I'm there, back at the bottom of the list, confused as ever.


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## Pickaxe

From what I understand, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate are pH stabilisers (for alkaline waters). What stabiliser are you referring to?


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## syl

Pickaxe said:


> From what I understand, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate are pH stabilisers (for alkaline waters). What stabiliser are you referring to?


pH buffer. As per pale beers using Melbourne water requiring further pH modifications.


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## Pickaxe

hsb said:


> This has me confused. It says
> but the the supplied link is to 'Potts Hill'.
> 
> When I open the Potts Hill link, the PDF Title says 'Water analysis: North Richmond water supply system'. ???
> 
> Other areas have links to Prospect North, South and East. Which one is the right one?


If you need to, contact your water supplier. Other thing is to see if there's a marked difference in the zones' water profiles, and whether you need to know precisely which area you're in. The differences might be minor enough not to worry too much.


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## hsb

I emailed them to confirm. Water is complex enough. I'd rather get the information correct from source, than have to deduce it from a variety of reports where I'm not certain what is the right one.
You're probably right, that there is not going to be enough of a difference to worry, but might as well start well, even if I still make a mess of it.

My tentative first steps were in line with previously posted, but can't say I'd noticed strikingly different results, too many variables maybe.


> Calcium sulfate to accent flavours for hops and bitter beers, and calcium carbonates for dark beers to help raise the PH from the acidic dark grains


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## manticle

Won't be strikingly different unless your water is awful (like those poor WA guys). With good starting water, it's a tweak, a bit of polish, a little bit of garnish to set it all off just so.

With salts it is akin to seasoning a meal, with acid adjustments and calcium salts you are helping the yeast and enzymes. Give them a touch of love.


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## hsb

Nicely put manticle. My first forays have been tentative, and I don't doubt that there is much benefit to be had. The OPs point is a good one and, for me at least, I think the too hard/complex explanation is definitely the one. There's a lot to absorb with water chemistry and because we all have different base profiles, no 'one size fits all' solution that you can look to with most other aspects of brewing.

We almost need 'Water' subforums centred around people with the same water profiles, then people can share their experiences, what works/what doesn't, in some kind of meaningful way. At the moment it's too varied. It can be hard to know if someone is using rainwater or filtered water or if they have high local this mineral etc.. to get some basic advice to get started and begin experimenting in the same way you might do using different hopping techniques or new mashing schedules etc.


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## syl

manticle said:


> Won't be strikingly different unless your water is awful (like those poor WA guys). With good starting water, it's a tweak, a bit of polish, a little bit of garnish to set it all off just so.
> 
> With salts it is akin to seasoning a meal, with acid adjustments and calcium salts you are helping the yeast and enzymes. Give them a touch of love.


So Brunswick Water - Calcium and stabiliser? For the doctors golden ale!


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## manticle

Depends on the beer. Calcium sulphate and calcium Chloride are all I use. I presume you mean 5.2 stabiliser from Fivestar? Not my bag, never used it, unsure what's in it besides generic mix of phosphates etc.

Sulphate to brighten hops, chloride to accentuate malt, no sulphate in dark beers. Usually 4g total to mash and 4 to boil, with many beers getting an even split unless particularly hoppy or particularly malty - then I favour one or the other. I cold steep dark grains when there is a high percentage in the grist so I don't worry about low pH in that circumstance and extra pale beers get a touch of lactic or phosphoric acid.


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## Pickaxe

I'm tasting a 2 week bottled motueka hopped ale that I added salts to. Huge difference in the clarity and definition of flavors. Hops and malt more pronounced and clear. Real clarity of flavor. Quite a dramatic difference for me. A sharpness or edge to the hops I haven't had, and the malt flavor is more forward. Less muddy than it was with salt additions. Clarity is the best word for it.

For me, is a dramatic change. Like finings for the palette. Highly recommend.


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## Pickaxe

Sorry I meant, less muddy than it was WITHOUT salt additions...


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## Pickaxe

Cold steeping dark grains? What do you mean by that manticle? Curious...


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## manticle

Dark grains drop mash pH. Lots of dark grains (say in a stout) potentially push pH lower than desired.

Lots of dark/roast in a mash can supposedly lead to harsh, unpleasant roast characters.

You will often see CaCO3 (calcium carbonate or chalk) recommended as an addition to drive pH back up in these circumstances. I won't go into the twenty reasons why I think adding carbonates makes no sense but if you are of the opinion that adding them is a bad idea but want to prevent mash pH dropping too low, you can do add the roast to the last ten minutes of the mash. Your pH through the main mash will be set, add salts as normal, get smooth instead of harsh.

However, I like to extract as much flavour as I can from the roast so I add the cracked roast grains to a pot of cold water, stir till hydrated, cover and refrigerate for 12-24 hours. I then bring up to approximate mash temperatures and add to the last 10 minutes of the mash. Full flavoured, no need to worry about pH being affected by roast, no need to add stupid chalk.

Only do this for black or dark brown beers. My dark mild has 130g of roast in a single batch - it gets no separate steeping step.


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## huhjhcjh

nice thread, i think that the water topic should going on, i want to read more discussion


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## Tex083

I have tried to get a grip of water chemistry and spoken to a few people about what to add. I now have removed Calcium Carbonate from any addition, one brewer I spoke to said mash efficiency is better on the acidic side of 5.2 rather than the alkaline side.
I now use the same addition for all beers, light, amber or dark and will see how it goes. As it's been said before a mix of Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride depending on flavour.
Salts to the boil is also a new thing I am trying as most of that calcium remains in the mash tun you can/should add it back to the boil. I have for my last APA and I'm waiting for it to finish fermenting to taste it.


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## Pickaxe

The same addition will not suit all beers, as grain bill effects ph. From what I understand, desired mash ph is 5.2-5.4 and adjusted for mash temp will read as 5.4-5.6. Water hardness is another thing I don't really understand, but Brun water page explains a lot, im still getting my head around it. It's like another recipe process, but worth it. Dark beers I dont make, but I know there's other factors to consider with them. 
My understanding:
Sulphate for hops
Calcium for malt
Sulphate to calcium should balance.
Salt adds to balance ph should relate to grain bill as darker malts are different to light malts.
Knowing your base water profile is a must.
Ph should be 5.4-5.6 at mash temp.

That's as far as I've got, and im thinking a one stop solution for all styles might not work for you.

pickaxe


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## manticle

Chloride for malt


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## Adr_0

manticle said:


> Dark grains drop mash pH. Lots of dark grains (say in a stout) potentially push pH lower than desired.
> 
> Lots of dark/roast in a mash can supposedly lead to harsh, unpleasant roast characters.
> 
> You will often see CaCO3 (calcium carbonate or chalk) recommended as an addition to drive pH back up in these circumstances. I won't go into the* twenty reasons* why I think adding carbonates makes no sense but if you are of the opinion that adding them is a bad idea but want to prevent mash pH dropping too low, you can do add the roast to the last ten minutes of the mash. Your pH through the main mash will be set, add salts as normal, get smooth instead of harsh.


I've only ever used a touch, but I can see how it would be hard to dissolve in quantities greater than a 'touch'. Further on this, some water (e.g. over most of Belgium and places in England) do show a fair chunk of carbonates in the water, but my understanding is they actually boil this out and let it drop out of suspension - dropping it down quite a lot.

So while we may get all fancy and add carbonate to perfectly match that reported water profile, in a lot of cases the brewery knocks it out before they mash in with the water - speaking confidently for Belgian breweries, and English probably do the same. Interestingly, Burton water is reported as having a frick-ton of Sulphate (600-800ppm) and a lot of sources say a lot of carbonate too (200-300) but Ray Daniels says Burton water has 0 carbonate - is this a practical approach, suggesting they knocked it out of suspension before mash in?

Sulphate is definitely bad for dark, roasty beers as the sharpness comes into those malts - not really what you want. But you still do want Calcium... which leaves you with CaCl or CaCO3.

Brisbane water already has about 100ppm chloride. manticle, any upper limit on chloride for different beer styles?


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## mabrungard

Adr_0 said:


> I've only ever used a touch, but I can see how it would be hard to dissolve in quantities greater than a 'touch'. Further on this, some water (e.g. over most of Belgium and places in England) do show a fair chunk of carbonates in the water, but my understanding is they actually boil this out and let it drop out of suspension - dropping it down quite a lot.
> 
> So while we may get all fancy and add carbonate to perfectly match that reported water profile, in a lot of cases the brewery knocks it out before they mash in with the water - speaking confidently for Belgian breweries, and English probably do the same. Interestingly, Burton water is reported as having a frick-ton of Sulphate (600-800ppm) and a lot of sources say a lot of carbonate too (200-300) but Ray Daniels says Burton water has 0 carbonate - is this a practical approach, suggesting they knocked it out of suspension before mash in?
> 
> Sulphate is definitely bad for dark, roasty beers as the sharpness comes into those malts - not really what you want. But you still do want Calcium... which leaves you with CaCl or CaCO3.
> 
> Brisbane water already has about 100ppm chloride. manticle, any upper limit on chloride for different beer styles?


With out special measures, chalk is essentially insoluble in water or the mash. It will dissolve, but it takes a long time...far longer than a mashing session.

Ray Daniels is quite wrong about Burton water. It does have significant alkalinity (aka: carbonate or bicarbonate). It is needed in mashing since that water has a large concentration of Ca and Mg that drive the residual alkalinity of the mash very low and the mash pH ends up too low if the alkalinity isn't there. So trying to brew a pale ale with a bunch of gypsum in RO water does not turn out as well as you might hope. RO has very little alkalinity. Using baking soda or lime when you are trying to brew a pale ale with RO water is helpful. By the way, I typically take the sulfate content of my water to 300 ppm for brewing pale ales.

You definitely don't want that high a sulfate level (300 ppm) when brewing a roasty beer, it can clash. I'd say that about 100 ppm is the highest I'd take sulfate in a roasty beer and you would be better off with a slightly lower level in some cases. 

100 ppm chloride is getting on up there. I would not try to take that level any higher. In the case of making a high sulfate water for pale ale brewing, the high chloride MIGHT make the resulting beer a little minerally. It may not be that bad, but just recognize that its a possibility.


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## Adr_0

mabrungard said:


> With out special measures, chalk is essentially insoluble in water or the mash. It will dissolve, but it takes a long time...far longer than a mashing session.
> 
> Ray Daniels is quite wrong about Burton water. It does have significant alkalinity (aka: carbonate or bicarbonate). It is needed in mashing since that water has a large concentration of Ca and Mg that drive the residual alkalinity of the mash very low and the mash pH ends up too low if the alkalinity isn't there. So trying to brew a pale ale with a bunch of gypsum in RO water does not turn out as well as you might hope. RO has very little alkalinity. Using baking soda or lime when you are trying to brew a pale ale with RO water is helpful. By the way, I typically take the sulfate content of my water to 300 ppm for brewing pale ales.
> 
> You definitely don't want that high a sulfate level (300 ppm) when brewing a roasty beer, it can clash. I'd say that about 100 ppm is the highest I'd take sulfate in a roasty beer and you would be better off with a slightly lower level in some cases.
> 
> 100 ppm chloride is getting on up there. I would not try to take that level any higher. In the case of making a high sulfate water for pale ale brewing, the high chloride MIGHT make the resulting beer a little minerally. It may not be that bad, but just recognize that its a possibility.


Thanks Martin, great information as per usual.

I'm a big fan of the 80:20 principle and keeping things simple, and further along that line of thinking I do want to make sure that anything I do adds measurable value or is done for a very good reason.

Sounds as though if I have a lot of roasted malts and I'm concerned about too much bite I have two options:
1) Steep at least some of the roasted malt separately and add late to the mash; or
2) Throw in a touch of NaCO3.

While it may concern me at some point to get from 95% to 98% i.e. worry about calcium carry-over and yeast health, I don't really think I need to be concerned at this point... but as always, happy to be convinced otherwise.


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## mr_wibble

Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
(Under $100 would be better)

Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?

I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.

The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.


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## Dan Pratt

I spoke to hunter water in Newcastle and for under 150bucks I can get the required minerals tested to be able to then adjust according to style. Where did you get the 1k figure from? 


Sent from my iPad using Aussie Home Brewer


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## Adr_0

Mr Wibble said:


> Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
> (Under $100 would be better)
> 
> Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?
> 
> I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.
> 
> The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.


search for PETIX or similar marine/aquarium tests for 'general hardness' and 'alkalinity/pH', and if you can, rely on mid-high level for your chloride, sodium and sulphate from your water supply or other people on the forum. should be able to get two kits for a total of $40-50 and you can test on the day or multiple sources.

isn't there a water database somewhere?


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## black_labb

I briefly did water additions but stopped when I wasn't noticing significant differences. I've been meaning to get into it since getting pH measurement equipment but the cheapo ph meter I got on ebay wasn't able to be used (the calibration didn't go far enough to get the reading accurate) and the test strips I ordered seem to be for higher pH and not the 4.8-6pH like I ordered and the container is marked, either that or my 100% base malt ale with no water additions and sydneys apparently soft water was reading under 4.8pH as was the tapwater. might give ebay a break next time I decide to get some ph measurement gear.

I agree with the sentiment of not worrying about it until you have ironed out every other element of your brewing procedure (or if you have specific issues with your water source)


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## Dan2

Mr Wibble said:


> Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?
> 
> I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.
> 
> The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.


Unless there is heavy mining activity in your area, then you should be able to treat your rain water as RO (no minerals) with pH6
As for the colorbond - Can't give a definitive answer there. I would imagine that a really old roof may give up some zinc or iron over time, but significant enough to get a ppm measure?
I use tank water, run it through a 2 stage particle/carbon filter to remove bird shit and bug piss, then call it RO


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## pyrosx

Mr Wibble said:


> Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
> (Under $100 would be better)


http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=At_home_water_testing

That exact test kit: $20 from the first google link I found.

It's obviously not a full on water analysis... but it feels like a pretty reasonable first step down that path


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## Camo1234

You can always get an RO system and always know what your water is.


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## Tim

Mr Wibble said:


> Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
> (Under $100 would be better)
> 
> Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?
> 
> I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.
> 
> The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.


Take a sample to the pool shop and ask them to test it for you. Its usually free. My pool shop do a full analysis,not just pH.

Tim


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## Dan Pratt

Tim said:


> Take a sample to the pool shop and ask them to test it for you. Its usually free. My pool shop do a full analysis,not just pH.
> 
> Tim


Your pool shop does a full analysis for free ( usually ) did you buy a pool from them aswell....lol

Jokes aside, can you show us the report you have from them?


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## Keppmiestet

I find the Ez water spreadsheet seems to be always out for getting my ph right , it always ends up more alkaline then predicted on the spreadsheet using the grain bill and salts. Maybe due to it not being able to deal with the thinner mash of BIAB . Anyone else have this drama ?


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## RelaxedBrewer

Keppmiestet said:


> I find the Ez water spreadsheet seems to be always out for getting my ph right , it always ends up more alkaline then predicted on the spreadsheet using the grain bill and salts. Maybe due to it not being able to deal with the thinner mash of BIAB . Anyone else have this drama ?


Are you adjusting for mash temps? The PH will appear lower at higher temps. From memory the PH will be 0.2-3 points lower than actual when measuring at mash temps.

This is why some quote the ideal range as 5.2-5.4 and some 5.4-5.6


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## Keppmiestet

Yeah that is true , I only check my mash ph 10 to 15 minutes after dough in and I cool the sample to 25 degrees then test. Always out by a fair bit . Ez calculates 5.4 ph after salt additions and I get 5.8 actual then have to use lactic acid to drop it to correct level. Just wonder how accurate the spreadsheet is for BIAB application as the mash volume is much greater as is water to grain ratio.


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## eamonnfoley

Keppmiestet said:


> Yeah that is true , I only check my mash ph 10 to 15 minutes after dough in and I cool the sample to 25 degrees then test. Always out by a fair bit . Ez calculates 5.4 ph after salt additions and I get 5.8 actual then have to use lactic acid to drop it to correct level. Just wonder how accurate the spreadsheet is for BIAB application as the mash volume is much greater as is water to grain ratio.


It shouldn't be that far out for BIAB. While L:G ratio has an effect on mash pH, its not a big impact. I find the Braukaiser's spreadsheet to be spot on for mash pH estimation. Always noticed its a little different to the others. Also ensure your pH meter is properly calibrated and stored correctly. By the way 5.4 (room temp) is quoted as a good target for lagers - but 5.5-5.6 seems to be a better target for ales. Fermentation pH drop is more aggressive with ale yeasts. But there are many factors at play here. Good practice is to see where your beer ends up. 4.2-4.4 is a good place for tasty & microbiologically stable beers. I've measured a few classic Australian and German commercial beers and they seem to be in this range.


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## Keppmiestet

I am starting to wonder how accurate my water profile info is for the area I live in, Rutherford NSW. Will do calibration on my meter also. How often should it be calibrated ? I always store it so the glass probe stays moist in de-ironised water in the little cap that covers it


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## eamonnfoley

Keppmiestet said:


> I am starting to wonder how accurate my water profile info is for the area I live in, Rutherford NSW. Will do calibration on my meter also. How often should it be calibrated ? I always store it so the glass probe stays moist in de-ironised water in the little cap that covers it


Best thing is to get some pH storage solution, put it in a glass and keep the probe immersed in it when not using it.
My probe sits permanently in a kolsch glass with the tip in the fluid, and foil over the top.
I calibrate everytime i brew or keg because it could be anything from weeks to months.


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## heyhey

Water profiles will change seasonally and with weather events. Any authority report will be an average. Most industries requiring a particular water chemistry have their own analysis equipment and authorities notify them of changes to supply sources.


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## Keppmiestet

Thanks for the info, I will have to do some more tweaking by the sounds of that till I get consistency . The water aspect of all grain is by far the trickiest thing to get my head around. There is a lot of conflicting info out there too.


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## anthonyUK

A good compromise is to use your water company for everything except alkalinity and measure this every brew if possible using a meter or kit such as the Salifert one.
The salt additions are relevant but not to the same degree a getting the the mash pH right.
The next step is to ensure you have enough calcium and then look at Sulphate:Chloride ratios.


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## William3265

I think water is areal hard topic to discuss


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## Ciderman

You guys sound like you know what you're doing. I'm new to brewing and I've put down 4 all grain beers in my 3V set up. Each beer I'm seeing improvement and I'm finding I have a real thirst for knowledge on the subject. 

My latest beer tastes great, but one thing I've got wrong is my water choice. I have been buying the reverse osmosis water from outside the brew shops thinking it was better than tap water. The thing is though I never gave it anymore thought which means I have made no additions to the water. I've completely neglected the measurement of PH so I would like to address this for my next brew.

Looking forward, what is the best water option? Continue buying RO water and making the additions, setting up a water filter under the sink and use that or something else like rainwater?


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## manticle

Depends what you have access to but the RO water plus your own additions is a good option. Many brewers set up ro filters so they can start with a blank slate. Clean rainwater is another good option - can you get it tested for mineral content?


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## Ciderman

I don't have rainwater at the moment. Unrelated to beer I have been thinking about getting it for a while so it's an option. I guess the cheapest option is to buy a water filter for your sink. I've seen them for $100 ish. Thoughts on that? Or better to invest the extra money on RO system.


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## peas_and_corn

Water is the very last thing you should work on. Given that you recently posted about efficiency and fermentation/mash schedule difficulties, now is not the time to look at your water- you won't know what effect your additions are making if you don't have a consistent, reliable method. Fiddling with your water is nice, but get everything else down good first.


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## manticle

P&c is right. Unless your water source is really nasty, its something to look at at the end of the road, rather than the start.
If you look at a filter, you want charcoal or RO. Don't get a mineral/ion exchange water softener.


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## Ciderman

peas_and_corn said:


> Water is the very last thing you should work on. Given that you recently posted about efficiency and fermentation/mash schedule difficulties, now is not the time to look at your water- you won't know what effect your additions are making if you don't have a consistent, reliable method. Fiddling with your water is nice, but get everything else down good first.


I'm a quick learner. Most of my issues were the fault of a bad thermometer. I've read that using RO water on its own can cause effeciency issues, so perhaps it's part of my problem.


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## QldKev

Ciderman said:


> I don't have rainwater at the moment. Unrelated to beer I have been thinking about getting it for a while so it's an option. I guess the cheapest option is to buy a water filter for your sink. I've seen them for $100 ish. Thoughts on that? Or better to invest the extra money on RO system.


Check out my Easy Water Filter setup. I'm happy with the quality it produces.

I looked at the RO setups, but to me they are slow, waste water and often have many parts/filter that need swapping out so become expensive.


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## Jkpentreath

Hey matey, I've just mounted a 100 buck carbon filter to the side of my three tier it knocks out chorine and nasty pathergenes, but leaves all the calcium. The boys r right best way to learn is to get a really simple couple of beers , brew them over, then once u have that process perfect u can tweek that process , to really understand what u have changed, have u ready smirtos golden recipe on brewadelaide? Very good prospective. I wanted to brew more often so I dropped to 15 lt batches. 
Also just wondering if the biab guys have tried doing a thicker mash , then adding the 10 lt at the end of the mash , that would have to drop it considerably. Anyone do this?


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## Adr_0

Ciderman said:


> I'm a quick learner. Most of my issues were the fault of a bad thermometer. I've read that using RO water on its own can cause effeciency issues, so perhaps it's part of my problem.


This is true in that there is no/little calcium available in RO water which can push your pH outside the ideal range. This means that conversion will take longer, ie if you mash for a set time you may not be getting full conversion efficiency vs if you had pH correct. You can also do a longer mash to assist with conversion efficiency if your pH is off. 

Note that this is just conversion efficiency, not lauter efficiency ( both of which contribute to mash efficiency) and this is also not brewhouse efficiency - but it can have an affect on all of these if you fail to compensate in other ways.


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## TheWiggman

I echo the above but probably the thing to take out of this is that RO water will have almost zero mineral content and your tap water is likely to have quite a different profile. RO could be considered a 'blank slate' but before treating anything, you need to know what's in it. While you're dialling in the system and getting efficiency and process under control, get hold of a water report so that when you're ready to take the leap into water chemistry you have the tools to do it.
Oh, and get a pH tester. Brewing water books will state that if you don't plan to get one, you might as well not read the book.


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## QldKev

heyhey said:


> Water profiles will change seasonally and with weather events. Any authority report will be an average. Most industries requiring a particular water chemistry have their own analysis equipment and authorities notify them of changes to supply sources.


Last time I spoke with the local council about the water analysis the guy asked what was it for. When I told him he explained that the water comes from 3 main sources, and they do vary in chemistry (one source is ground water). At any point of time the water could be from any of them, or a mixture of any of them. He said the water report is just the last audit point that ensures which ever mix they are using, that it is within the guidelines. So the water you get today could be different to tomorrows, but it should always be within the guidelines. He did mention whilst not to expect it to be 100% as per the report, it will give you a basis for the type of water in your area. Some areas are know for high levels of dissolved solids etc and that would be reflected in the report.


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## MHB

[SIZE=medium]I really enjoyed the new(ish) book "Water" by Palmer and Kaminski. It’s a sane look at water and tries to get away from the really dated concept of regional water (Munich, Burton, Dublin...) and looks at the effect of the salts on a style of beer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]A worthwhile investment if you are taking water chemistry seriously.
Mark[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]


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## Ciderman

QldKev said:


> Check out my Easy Water Filter setup. I'm happy with the quality it produces.
> 
> I looked at the RO setups, but to me they are slow, waste water and often have many parts/filter that need swapping out so become expensive.


Looks great Kev, as it's so cheap it can't hurt to give this a go. The 3rd piece from China, I see there were a few problems there, could you use anything else?


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## QldKev

Ciderman said:


> Looks great Kev, as it's so cheap it can't hurt to give this a go. The 3rd piece from China, I see there were a few problems there, could you use anything else?


If I did it again I would just get a 1/4" bsp bolt and loosely put it in the end. If that doesn't flow enough then I'd try grilling a small hole in the bolt longways to let more flow. You should even be able to get a plastic bolt.


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## Yeastfridge

Jkpentreath said:


> Also just wondering if the biab guys have tried doing a thicker mash , then adding the 10 lt at the end of the mash , that would have to drop it considerably. Anyone do this?


Drop what considerably? (sorry, just joining this conversation) 
I do this type of mashing regularly so I can step mash (usually 63, 70, 76C), which is called a Hockkirsch mash. 

I pay lots of attention to PH, calcium and my chloride/sulfate ratio, but add all my salts into the mash and then add my usual chlorine-filtered tap water when stepping up. I would consider myself a chemistry and beer nerd and can definitely taste a big difference with the salts and acid additions. Do a saison with a high sulfate, low chloride water and another with high chloride but little sulfate and the difference is massive.


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## Adr_0

Yeastfridge said:


> Drop what considerably? (sorry, just joining this conversation)
> I do this type of mashing regularly so I can step mash (usually 63, 70, 76C), which is called a Hockkirsch mash.
> 
> I pay lots of attention to PH, calcium and my chloride/sulfate ratio, but add all my salts into the mash and then add my usual chlorine-filtered tap water when stepping up. I would consider myself a chemistry and beer nerd and can definitely taste a big difference with the salts and acid additions. Do a saison with a high sulfate, low chloride water and another with high chloride but little sulfate and the difference is massive.


I just did one with about 220ppm sulphate (final content). Only 50% attenuated at this stage but hoping it's nice and sharp. How did the sulphate one end up?


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## Jkpentreath

Yeastfridge said:


> Drop what considerably? (sorry, just joining this conversation)
> I do this type of mashing regularly so I can step mash (usually 63, 70, 76C), which is called a Hockkirsch mash.
> I pay lots of attention to PH, calcium and my chloride/sulfate ratio, but add all my salts into the mash and then add my usual chlorine-filtered tap water when stepping up. I would consider myself a chemistry and beer nerd and can definitely taste a big difference with the salts and acid additions. Do a saison with a high sulfate, low chloride water and another with high chloride but little sulfate and the difference is massive.


 mash ph?


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## Yeastfridge

I don't have a PH probe but the calculator I use (Brewer's Friend website) estimated around 5.2. There were a couple of grams of citric acid in there too.


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## Yeastfridge

Adr_0 said:


> I just did one with about 220ppm sulphate (final content). Only 50% attenuated at this stage but hoping it's nice and sharp. How did the sulphate one end up?


Came out great, a really nice dry finish, almost reminds me of the fine chalky tannin you get in amphora (clay vessel) fermented wines I used to get to drink when I worked in a fancy Italian restaurant. I think mine was somewhere around 150ppm. I think 220 will be great.


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## peas_and_corn

Yeastfridge said:


> I don't have a PH probe but the calculator I use (Brewer's Friend website) estimated around 5.2. There were a couple of grams of citric acid in there too.


_If_ it's correct (and that's a big if) you're on the low side so cut the acid addition


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## neal32

Other than locking down my fermentation process(fridge, o2, stir plate), starting from RO water had the biggest impact (started AG in Perth, terrible, just terrible water).  People that say otherwise are probably basing there opinion off ego rather than science/honest results.

It really depends, if you want the best beer possible, you can't use anything else but RO/Distilled water to start.  No doubt you can make good, even great beer with tap water, but not the best.  Same goes with step mashes, they improve efficiency, mouth feel, head retention.  People will say they are unnecessary, which is true in the same way that AG is unnecessary to make beer, but if your goal is to make the best beer possible which is my goal everytime I brew, I use RO water/step mashes. YMMV


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## TheWiggman

neal32 said:


> It really depends, if you want the best beer possible, you can't use anything else but RO/Distilled water to start.


Surely you jest? Are you saying that historical brewing using natural water sources would be made better by using RO and adjusting? I can't agree. If your brew is tailored to your water then you can't make it better by using RO water and modifying it. In fact I'd suggest some beer _can't _be made better than by using natural water.

Going from rubbish water to RO, completely different story.


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