# Water Additions For Bohemian Pilsener



## Bribie G (24/2/11)

Ok - telegraphing my punches for this years forthcoming comp season but:

This is driving me nuts trying to find reliable information, does anyone have any suggestions about the precise salt additions to bring 33L of RO / Distilled water into line with Plzen water? Most info out there seems to be on US sites who suggest adding "Kosher Salts" or 35 grains of Schneiderpoofers old fashioned Philadelphia salts whatever. :huh: 

Any advice appreciated as I don't want to add too much mineral, but don't want the thing falling over due to lack of calcium. :icon_cheers:


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## schooey (24/2/11)

From notes I have jotted down, Pilsen water is very soft. This is the profile I have saved in the EZ water sheet that I use;

Calcium (ppm):
10

Sulfates (ppm):
5

Magnesium (ppm):
2

Sodium (ppm):
2

Chloride (ppm):
5

Carbonates (ppm):
15

I'm not that ofay with RO water... does it strip it back to bare? If so I guess it's just a matter of adding salts in the calculator to get to those numbers.


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## DanRayner (24/2/11)

My Promash water profiler says you need bugger-all but here it is:







the "target" water is for Plzen (stored-in/provided-by Promash) and "your water" I just left blank cos I figured distilled would have nothing in it?

I'm not 100% whether you'd want to put this in your mash (I would think you would - for enzyme conversion) or your boil - or actually, you'd probably want it for both; you need it in the mash water but at the same time you don't want to dilute that out when you prep for the boil.

So maybe make up enough for the mash and then add more to the boil based on the volume of new distilled water you add to the boil (do you BIABers add more water?)

cheers!

Dan

EDIT: Schooey's values are a little different but even so that would not be a lot of salts for the total. Say, as a BIABer, you do single batch sparge with 30L all up in the mash/boil (22L for the boil plus 8L locked up in the grain).

Then you'd need the following (spread out between water in the mash and then any extra water added but for a total of 30L):

Salt added Dan/Promash Schooey
Gypsum: 0.25g 
Epsom salts: 0.08g
Table salt: 0.23g
Calcium Carb: 0.37g or 0.71g

the extra amount for Schooey brings the carbonates and calcium content up to Schooey's estimate.

maybe you could just do a mix of distilled and undistilled tap waters to get the right content?


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## bconnery (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Ok - telegraphing my punches for this years forthcoming comp season but:
> 
> This is driving me nuts trying to find reliable information, does anyone have any suggestions about the precise salt additions to bring 33L of RO / Distilled water into line with Plzen water? Most info out there seems to be on US sites who suggest adding "Kosher Salts" or 35 grains of Schneiderpoofers old fashioned Philadelphia salts whatever. :huh:
> 
> Any advice appreciated as I don't want to add too much mineral, but don't want the thing falling over due to lack of calcium. :icon_cheers:


According to a quick play in beersmith around 0.5gms of Epsom Salts, Calcium Chloride and Baking Soda would get you close...


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## Fourstar (24/2/11)

3g of CaCl2 is what i would add to the mash and nothing more. Just enough to the some calcium up there for enzyme activiy and some yeast health. Its all about keeping soft malt and hops, avoid sulfates at all costs.

KISS approach if you ask me.


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

Thanks guys, that looks brilliant, the figures all seem to be in similar range. I'll dissolve all the salts in the initial water as I'm doing a German Hochkurz mash ( stepped mash that brings the temp up in stages by boiling water additions) so I'll be starting with a fairly thickish mash (compared to normal BIAB) anyway. :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:

Edit: just got 4*s post. 
Being RO water then no further Chlorides, Carbonates etc required?


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## WarmBeer (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Being RO water then no further Chlorides, Carbonates etc required?


My understanding is that RO water has pretty much no salts in it at all. This will adversely affect both your conversion and your yeast health.

As Fourstar mentioned, 3 gm of CaCl2 should provide the required calcium for both of these. Other trace elements such as magnesium, sodium will still be pretty much missing altogether from the water, but the grain will provide these.

In best Mary Poppins voice - "Just a teaspoon of CaCl helps the gravity go down, gravity go down, gravity go down".


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## DanRayner (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Edit: just got 4*s post.
> Being RO water then no further Chlorides, Carbonates etc required?





Brew Chem 101 said:


> Chlorides increase bitterness, stability and clarity of beer. At higher levels* gives pleasant, round and full sweetness to beer. Can also inhibit yeast flocculation.
> 
> Carbonate at high levels* extracts excessive hops flavour (often masked by heavier beers)
> 
> ...



*Presumably at much higher levels than we are talking about.

Janson, L.W. 1996. _Brew Chem 101_. ISBN-13 978-0-88266-940-3


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## dent (24/2/11)

Personally I think actually checking the mash pH more useful than simply adding various salts and hoping everything turns out OK - especially with RO water since much of what you read (as fas as recipes go) is based on varying degrees of tapwater. The existing (or non-existing!) calcium and carbonates will make a pretty big difference to the pH buffering in the mash. 

I use a small amount (20% or so) of tapwater for "trace" ions and buffering capacity, with the rest RO, along with CaCl2 to adjust the pH as required. The other ions generally offer qualities you don't prefer in your Bo Pils.


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

Dent, I should also mention that I'm using 100g of acidulated malt as well as an "insurance" but the inclusion of a couple of litres or so of tap water makes sense - seeing as there'll be SFA salts going in there to affect the pH greatly - not too much tap water but just for those trace ions like arsenic or canetodium etc in the local Bribie water :icon_cheers:


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## TidalPete (24/2/11)

:icon_offtopic: 

Sent the missus out to find some Calcium Carbonate & she came back empty-handed. Does anyone know if blackboard chalk is a good source of CaCO3 percentage-wise or should I keep looking for a local source?
Sorry for the hijack Bribie. :icon_cheers: 

TP


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

No I think blackboard "chalk" is totally diff. 
When do you need it? I'll post you a wee ziplock today.


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## DanRayner (24/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> Sent the missus out to find some Calcium Carbonate & she came back empty-handed. Does anyone know if blackboard chalk is a good source of CaCO3 percentage-wise or should I keep looking for a local source?
> Sorry for the hijack Bribie. :icon_cheers:
> ...



Ironically, blackboard chalk has no actual chalk (calcium carbonate) in it at all - it's calcium sulfate which, in a hydrous form, is the same as gypsum.

Our wonderful sponsor Craftbrewer has calcium carbonate (as well as all your other salt needs) for sale; around half a kilo for $7


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## TidalPete (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> No I think blackboard "chalk" is totally diff.
> When do you need it? I'll post you a wee ziplock today.



Thanks anyway mate but I need it tomorrow morning. Don't suppose you run a courier service?  
Any idea where I can obtain some apart from the above sponsers?

TP

PS --- Just saw your post DR. Many thanks but not enough time to get here.


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

When does your postie come generally?


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## Fourstar (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> No I think blackboard "chalk" is totally diff.
> When do you need it? I'll post you a wee ziplock today.



I'm sure the boys in blue will be interested to hear of a suspicious white powder in a small coin baggie being mailed across the state.  

Buy up all from craft brewer and you'll have enough salts to last you 2 years!

Also, i forgot to note that yes, mine was assuming a small amount of local water was added back. Even if its 1-2L it should suffice. Only problem is if you don't know your water profile, you have no idea what you are starting with.


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## Paul H (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> When does your postie come generally?



After he is aroused  

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

Paul H said:


> After he is aroused
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> Paul



Pete has a female postie and it happens when Mrs Pete aint looking :icon_cheers: 

It's my thread and I'll derail it if I want to.



on topic, ended up using 3L town and 3g Calcium Chloride

OOps beepers gone off for end of Maltose Rest, gotta go.


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## [email protected] (24/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> Thanks anyway mate but I need it tomorrow morning. Don't suppose you run a courier service?
> Any idea where I can obtain some apart from the above sponsers?
> 
> TP
> ...



TP You could use baking soda if you are stuck (watching the sodium) for alkalinity if that is what you need.


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## DanRayner (24/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> Thanks anyway mate but I need it tomorrow morning. Don't suppose you run a courier service?
> Any idea where I can obtain some apart from the above sponsers?
> 
> TP
> ...



Yates Garden Lime is calcium carbonate but I'm not sure if that's all it is :blink:



abc said:


> TP You could use baking soda if you are stuck (watching the sodium) for alkalinity if that is what you need.



That might raise the sodium in the brew to an unacceptable level... maybe?


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## ianh (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> on topic, ended up using 3L town and 3g Calcium Chloride
> 
> OOps beepers gone off for end of Maltose Rest, gotta go.



What does that do to your chloride/sulphate ratio?


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## Fourstar (24/2/11)

Use Calcium Chloride and Bicarbonate of soda if you have them

you will essentially (or close enough) end up with salt + chalk additions. just got to watch your additions as you don't want the total Na and Cl levels too high. Unless you're inclined to brewing with sea water.


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

ianh said:


> What does that do to your chloride/sulphate ratio?



ez water won't calculate it as it would come out to infinity :icon_cheers: I guess super malty profile which is what you need for a BoPils, supported by a shitload of saaz of course. :icon_drool2:


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## dent (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Dent, I should also mention that I'm using 100g of acidulated malt as well




Yeah, this is why I suggest measuring rather than trying to work it out beforehand - the grist can make a large difference on the pH side of things even on a scale of 100g melanoidin or carapils additions, for instance. 

There are so many variables that unless you are brewing the exact same recipe over and over it can be pretty futile to attempt to nail it beforehand.


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## srcossens (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Ok - telegraphing my punches for this years forthcoming comp season but:
> 
> This is driving me nuts trying to find reliable information, does anyone have any suggestions about the precise salt additions to bring 33L of RO / Distilled water into line with Plzen water? Most info out there seems to be on US sites who suggest adding "Kosher Salts" or 35 grains of Schneiderpoofers old fashioned Philadelphia salts whatever. :huh:
> 
> Any advice appreciated as I don't want to add too much mineral, but don't want the thing falling over due to lack of calcium. :icon_cheers:



Bribie,

I used to use RO water when I lived in the UK and because the water was as hard as nails. For a Pils, I used about 35.5ltrs of RO water and then topped it up with 500ml of tap water. This gave enough minerals for what is stated as the Pils water, but then I added a few grams of CaCl2 to up the Calcium side same as what others have mentioned.




TidalPete said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> Sent the missus out to find some Calcium Carbonate & she came back empty-handed. Does anyone know if blackboard chalk is a good source of CaCO3 percentage-wise or should I keep looking for a local source?
> Sorry for the hijack Bribie. :icon_cheers:
> ...



TP, you could try some Sodium Bicarbonate, NaHCO3. Your missus should have some in the pantry for making cakes. Just don't add too much as you don't want the sodium levels up too high, but it should increase your CO3 levels if that is what you are after.


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## [email protected] (24/2/11)

2 g in 20L raises the sodium by 27ppm and the Alkalinity by 60ppm according to Palmers ver 3.0 spreadsheet. That is quite a lot of additional alkalinity. The Sodium addition is probably manageable with normal ranges between 10 - 70 ppm. 

As they say it depends.........


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## ianh (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> ez water won't calculate it as it would come out to infinity :icon_cheers: I guess super malty profile which is what you need for a BoPils, supported by a shitload of saaz of course. :icon_drool2:



Why I asked (just starting to play with water profile) taken from Palmer's How to Brew. Pilsen water Ca 10 Mg 3 HCO3 3 SO4 4 and Cl 4

*Pilsen -* The very low hardness and alkalinity allow the proper mash pH to be reached with only base malts, achieving the soft rich flavor of fresh bread. The lack of sulfate provides for a mellow hop bitterness that does not overpower the soft maltiness; noble hop aroma is emphasized. 

Not knowing your tap water analysis but as you are using mainly RO water, by adding Calcium Chloride arn't you upping the hardness and upsetting the Cl/SO4 ratio.

just my 2 c


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## Bribie G (24/2/11)

I'm adding a bit of Calcium Chloride really for the Calcium as it's the only real option without putting in Sulphate or Carbonate ions - however it's a fairly minute amount and I would hope there are some sulphates in the base malt to counteract it.


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## ianh (24/2/11)

BribieG said:


> I'm adding a bit of Calcium Chloride really for the Calcium as it's the only real option without putting in Sulphate or Carbonate ions - however it's a fairly minute amount and I would hope there are some sulphates in the base malt to counteract it.



Fair enough I presume the water is softened before going into the RO thus will be no calcium in the RO water and the requirement to add some.


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## argon (6/8/11)

Bumpng the thread as I now have my 38L of ro water with me for a 100% wey floor malted bo pils and 100% Czech saaz to 40ibu tonight. Doing a double decoction double batch. So should be a malty beast.

On advice above I'll be cutting the balance of the water with some good old Brisbane water... About 20L iirc. I have 2 issues; 

1. I don't have any Epsom salts (ordered from Craftbrewers but the courier arrived when I was in the backyard yesterday and won't redeliver until Monday <_< . What else can I use to add a little mg to the mash?

2. Lowering the mash ph. Was planning on using some acidulated malt (as above ordered it but won't get it till Monday). I have some citric acid that I've considered using, but not sure how much to use. Ezwater does the calcs for lactic, but nit citric. In ez lactic is 88% acid content, assuming the citric is 100% I'll need 3ml to lower to under ph 5.4. Would this be too much?


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## eamonnfoley (6/8/11)

1) You need some calcium, at least about 25ppm for a soft water beer like this. CaCl is is the best solution here if your working with RO. If your Brissy water adds some calcium, it might be ok. But i suspect you might end up with some alkalinity as well, which you want to avoid.

2) See if you can get some acid malt. 2-3% of the grist should get your PH down considering soft water and a 100% pils malt beer. Lactic acid works well, but I cant comment on citric.


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## [email protected] (6/8/11)

you can get Epsom salts at the supermarket, expensive way to buy it, but same same


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## dent (6/8/11)

argon said:


> Bumpng the thread as I now have my 38L of ro water with me for a 100% wey floor malted bo pils and 100% Czech saaz to 40ibu tonight. Doing a double decoction double batch. So should be a malty beast.
> 
> On advice above I'll be cutting the balance of the water with some good old Brisbane water... About 20L iirc. I have 2 issues;
> 
> ...




You don't need any extra magnesium, and the sulfates would be rather undesirable in any case. 

If you have a pH meter, shortly after dough in gradually add small quantities of acid - stir and wait a few minutes between iterations - and measure the result. You will get this right with plenty of time left for your sacc rest/s.


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## Bribie G (6/8/11)

Epsom salts should be in the laxatives section. Chemists will have it as well.


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## mwd (6/8/11)

Bribie G said:


> Epsom salts should be in the laxatives section. Chemists will have it as well.




And about $3.00 for 375g box not that expensive. ( Chemist's Warehouse )


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