# Mashmaster Mill Design



## BrissyBrew (24/9/06)

I have been busy with the design of the mashmaster mill. I am currently deciding on the best material to manufacturer the rollers from. I am dedicated to producing the best possible mill I can for a reasonable price.

Pros & Cons
Mild Steel: commonly used roller material, lower cost, however rollers may rust
Aluminum: rust free, lighter for shipping means the final cost delivered is less.
304 SS: rust free, however costs more. 

All input is welcome.


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## Stoodoo (24/9/06)

I have already bought myself a mill, and when I was looking around for them I was after a straight out of the box mill - Something that I didn't have to build extra's from scratch for ie hopper, base etc. Though when I received my mill I realised that there was not much involved in the base. I'd definitely want the hopper option, perhaps in kit form for both ease of packaging (and saving money) and something that could be quickly screwed together or rivetted together by the end user. The non rusting aluminium option sounds good but would the aluminium rollers be as durable as steel? If so, then depending on the overall cost, I think that would be a great unique selling point that no other grain mill manufacturers offer(I stand to be corrected on this though). Of course, stainless rollers are the best option, but I wouldn't think you'd sell too many depending on final price, maybe a "special order option". Finally adjustability of the roller gap is something which I believe needs to be offered. I know that people probably don't go changing around their gap setting often, I have played around with my gap setting and after several adjustments have left it on MY prefered setting. I found that I was able to get slightly better efficiency than what the factory setting gave. Different grains may need different gap settings, though I am not that anal about it - some people may be h34r: .

Good luck with your mill, I can't wait to see what's offered (I may have purchased mine too early).

Cheers


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## dicko (24/9/06)

BrissyBrew said:


> I have been busy with the design of the mashmaster mill. I am currently deciding on the best material to manufacturer the rollers from. I am dedicated to producing the best possible mill I can for a reasonable price.
> 
> Pros & Cons
> Mild Steel: commonly used roller material, lower cost, however rollers may rust
> ...



Hi Brissy,
Good to see someone making these in Aus at a commercial level.
I think cost or value for money is the most important criteria with the purchase of a mill and therefore I would go the carbon steel rollers.
Yes there will be an argument re rust but I have got a Crankenstein 3D with steel rollers that is coming up for two years old and there is no sign of rust on the rollers. I did consider S/Steel for mine but could not really justify the extra cost.
I blow mine off with compressed air about once every three months to remove the dust.
You may consider offering S/Steel or Aluminium as a more expensive option.
Good luck with your new project.

Cheers


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## Screwtop (24/9/06)

Frank SS tubing is a good option for use as rollers, much cheaper and lighter (ends plugged and axle through the middle). I'm in the market and looking at a Crank ATM.


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## Bobby (24/9/06)

have you thought of using rubber? you can get rubber that is bloody hard and certainly hard enough for this use. i was thinking of using rubber for my mill.


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## BrissyBrew (24/9/06)

Just fishing for the right roller materials at present, I have the other design factors down pat, but more of that closer to release date.

stoodoo... The non rusting aluminum option sounds good but would the aluminium rollers be as durable as steel? 
Obviously not as durable as steel, but milling malt presents should present no problems. I am planning on using an aircraft grade aluminum.


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## Weizguy (24/9/06)

Characteristics that I would look for would be:
Performance. U don't want a tool that doesn't do the job well.
Longevity. No point having a tool that works well for a few months only
Price/ Value. Everyone likes cheap stuff, but not if it won't last
Brewers have to expect to pay for a good product, or they will soon regret cutting corners.
It may be hard to sort out the [email protected] element on the forum, though. And some people need to take a hard look at themselves, coz they may not realise that are cheapskates. U don't get nuthin' 4 nuthin'!!!

BTW, can Admin correct the spelling of "_*aluminium*_" in the poll, for goodness sake. Was discussing this spelling issue with Keith (the bier guy/Chemist) yesterday, and didn't imagine that I'd be back on the soapbox so soon.

My 2 cents
Seth


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## fixa (24/9/06)

> Brewers have to expect to pay for a good product, or they will soon regret cutting corners.
> It may be hard to sort out the [email protected] element on the forum, though. And some people need to take a hard look at themselves, coz they may not realise that are cheapskates. U don't get nuthin' 4 nuthin'!!!
> 
> BTW, can Admin correct the spelling of "aluminium" in the poll, for goodness sake. Was discussing this spelling issue with Keith (the bier guy/Chemist) yesterday, and didn't imagine that I'd be back on the soapbox so soon.



Dude.. relax. Have a beer.. It's not worth bursting a blood vessel over.


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## berazafi (24/9/06)

BrissyBrew said:


> Just fishing for the right roller materials at present, I have the other design factors down pat, but more of that closer to release date.
> 
> stoodoo... The non rusting aluminium option sounds good but would the aluminium rollers be as durable as steel?
> Obviously not as durable as steel, but milling malt presents should present no problems. I am planning on using an aircraft grade aluminum.



I built my own mill with aluminum rollers, in 15 brews they have gone blunt (the knurling has gone flat), im about to change them to steel

Steel or SS is the way, or maybe anodised alloy


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## goatherder (24/9/06)

I plan to purchase a mill in the next 6 months so this is one topic I'm keeping my eye on.

I want 2 steel rollers, a hopper and an adjustable gap. Stainless is my preferred option but only if the premium is reasonable. I would consider 30%-50% on top of the delivered price as reasonable. I don't care about design, body materials, knurling and all that, as long as it has been demonstrated that the product works.

If I was buying today I'd get the barley crusher. I'm going to wait and see if the mashmaster is better value.


edit: grammer


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## Aaron (24/9/06)

I have a Barley Crusher that I got second hand and have had for over a year now. I believe it was probably in service for a couple of years before that. It has steel rollers and is still doing a great job. I think stainless is probably overkill for this. It is nice to have all stainless but I don't think the premium would be worth it on a mill. If it is well looked after it won't have any problems.


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## Shunty (24/9/06)

Thought about brass for the rollers? 1/4 inch wall brass tube will take a fairly deep knurl, is tougher than aluminium, and won't rust


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## poppa joe (24/9/06)

A nyone know if a Corn Crusher is any good for grain ....
Went to gets some parts for my '37 Ford..Fella near me cleaning out his shed.....
Was loading up for swap meet at Quenbeane..Had a big Big mill thing with a handle..Said it was a corn crusher..About 800mm high ....
ANYONE???????????
PJ

If a Barley crusher is one of those Porket type thingys ...I have one $50.00 + Postage Weighs about 8 kgs...


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## poppa joe (24/9/06)

BRISSY..
Hard rubber could be an option??????????
I have an old Wringer..Hard Rubber..seems to work OK..Hard to file down(its got a little bow in it)
Grains do tend to stick on rubber..but seem to clean easy...(I dont do any large amounts of grain yet..
But first try was promising..
See DIY GRAIN MILL post....
PJ


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## big d (24/9/06)

Something worth considering when you choose between either steel or s/s rollers is your location.Dicko lives in a relatively dry arid zone whereas i live in the tropics and at about this time of the year the air starts to get rather wet ie humid so plain ol steel starts to oxidise/rust.Worth a thought or two when decideing between s/s or steel.

Cheers
Big D


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## Chris (25/9/06)

Being a boilermaker I thought I would jump in with my 2c.

All materials are intended for different applications
S/S is just that, stain -less, not stain -free and is intended to be used in a volatile or food environment. When the content of chrome exceeds 11% it forms a protective layer of chromic oxide on the steel surface, if this is damaged the steel will corrode.
Aircraft grade Aluminium, good weight to strength ratio, not anywhere near as hard as steel.
Regular Steel, cheap, hard, strong, tough, relatively resistant to corrosion.

Personally I would go for plain steel but I can understand if people want/need stainless. Like with all machinery Im most interested in the wearing parts like the bearings at the shaft ends. Its no good having s/s rollers if theyre running in plastic.

Im looking foward to another excellent product from brissy brew

Cheers


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## BrissyBrew (25/9/06)

Weizguy said:


> BTW, can Admin correct the spelling of "_*aluminium*_" in the poll, for goodness sake. Was discussing this spelling issue with Keith (the bier guy/Chemist) yesterday, and didn't imagine that I'd be back on the soapbox so soon.
> Seth


I noticed the typo after I posted, but because the text is in the poll I can't edit it. Although debate does rage about the spelling, straight from wikipedia


> In Great Britain and other countries using British spelling, only "aluminium" is used. In the United States, the spelling aluminium is largely unknown, and the spelling aluminum predominates.[11][12] The Canadian Oxford Dictionary prefers aluminum.
> 
> In other English-speaking countries, the spellings (and associated pronunciations) aluminium and aluminum are both in common use in scientific and nonscientific contexts. The spelling in virtually all other languages is analogous to the -ium ending.
> 
> The International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) adopted aluminium as the standard international name for the element in 1990, but three years later recognized aluminum as an acceptable variant. Hence their periodic table includes both, but places aluminium first[13]. IUPAC officially prefers the use of aluminium in its internal publications, although several IUPAC publications use the spelling aluminum.[1


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## BrissyBrew (25/9/06)

berazafi said:


> I built my own mill with aluminum rollers, in 15 brews they have gone blunt (the knurling has gone flat), im about to change them to steel
> 
> Steel or SS is the way, or maybe anodised alloy



What grade of aluminum did you use? I am thinking about at 6061-T6. I am also considering hard anodizing.


> Hard anodizing is more commonly found in industrial or commercial applications than in consumer products. Some aluminum cookware may be processed through hard anodizing, but regular anodizing generally produces the durable non-stick coating preferred by consumers. Hard anodizing produces a much thicker coating of aluminum oxide, penetrating holes and fissures in the surface to create a more uniform appearance than regular anodized aluminum. Aluminum sheets processed by hard anodizing may have a dark brown or black surface, but other colors can be created.
> 
> The benefits of hard anodizing aluminum instead of using stainless steel are lower overall cost and weight. Machining hard anodized aluminum is easier than penetrating a similar block of stainless steel. Hard anodizing also yields a product resistant to harsh weather, salt sprays and abrasive machining processes. Aluminum processed by hard anodizing can be only a few points away from the hardness of diamonds.



Whilst I am on coatings and treatments I note that Browndog has nickel plated rollers. So maybe nickel plated carbon steel rollers might fix the rust issue at a lower cost than stainless. Still a bugger to ship though.


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## FNQ Bunyip (25/9/06)

I am in the market now for a mill. I want S/S because like big D I live in the tropics and hell corosion starts on anything 2 minutes after putting it down...
My tool box is upstairs in the house , I open each draw and spray CRC in there every couple of weeks and still my spanners get rust and corosion on them. 
I think I will go the Crank&stein with S/S and 1/2 shaft...
Sorry Briz but it time now...

:beer:


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## Stagger (25/9/06)

I have made a number of mills for brewers here in Canberra, also I am a engineer so I think I can help. 

Firstly forget Aluminium the rollers they simply will not last, mild steel would be a good option however could rust and wear unless heat treated. S/S is by far the best option as it will give you long life ( mine are 21/2 years and sill like the day I made them) and care free. There is however a number of materials that will do the job for a while and yes cheaper but getting them re-machined will quickly add up.
The mills that I made had two 50mm S/S straight knurled rollers 200mm long, running on roller bearings with aluminium slides for adjustments. I stoped making them as every body tried to get them cheaper, I charged $300 for the lot witch took me 21/2 days to make plus materials. I wasnt trying to make money out of them just to help others but as we know most home brewers like the cheep option.

I guess what I am trying to say is this is an important piece of kit, do it right the first time, spend the money that will give you more bang for your buck. If I was to make them to sell I would be doing them out of Mild steel as they will give good life for the money and wont cost the earth to replace, I know a number of people that have been using mild steel for years with little to no wear.


Stagger


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## Hubby (25/9/06)

Nice work BrissyBrew!

Have you looked into case hardening of mild steel rollers? 

This could be done after the knurl and would substantially increase the life of the roller. With heat treatment, it should work out much cheaper than SS or some of the other options and add extra life.

Whatever the options you end up with, I know my DIY job ain't gonna last forever and I'll need a replacement. At least this way I can buy Australian and help small business at the same time.

Keep these great ideas coming!


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## Ross (25/9/06)

Brizzy,

Don't worry about weight - There are many cheap freight options & you should be able to deliver, regardless of weight, for approx $9 almost anywhere. If you can't offer steel or S/S as an option, I'd be going the high quality way & doing it in S/S, or comparing the cost against Nickel plate which could be an excellent compromise.

Cheers Ross


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## Paul H (25/9/06)

I thought brewing with aluminium caused brain damage :huh:


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## Adamt (25/9/06)

Unless you make a huge scratch in it, and then rinse it with the water youre brewing with, there wont be much dain bramage! h34r:


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## Chris (25/9/06)

Hi Brissy,

6061 is an excellent material, it is also used for archetectural like windows frames and is even used in the defence industry for things like ASLAVS, although 5083 has better weldability.
6000 series denotes it has silicon in the mix, which is kind of like adding carbon to steel, it increases strength, decreases the coefficient of linear expansion and decreases corrosion.
T-6 denotes the heat treatment, which is specific to the intended application.
But, even with hard anodising it is not as hard or tough as steel.

Cheers


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## devo (25/9/06)

It would be funny if your poll ended up as a 50/50 split on everything.


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## crozdog (25/9/06)

Hi Brizzy,

My preferences are:

- fully adjustable gap. 
- simple gap adjustment - I don't want to be mucking around with screwdrivers & feeler guages - I'd like to be able to turn a knob 1 or more "detents" & know that for each detent I adjust by 0.X mm
- both rollers geared so the drive roller drives the "free" roller (ie no o-rings to drive the 2nd roller
- a decent length shaft for a drill or motor setup, prefer 3/8" or 1/2"
- shaft should have a flat or keyway for a locking screw on a pulley.
- be ready to use out of the box ie not have to stuff around with fabricating a base or hopper (some assembly is OK)
- whilst stainless is nirvana, I'd be happy with mild steel as long as it had been treated to electroless nickle plating (regular electro nickle plating won't fill the gaps in any knurling evenly, you'd get more coating on the peaks, but almost none in the valleys. As electroless is a chemical process, it coats uneven surfaces evenly.)
- reasonable price. I believe in buying quality tools, but still expect value for money. 

Any chance the'd be ready for xmas? It'd make a great stocking stuffer.  

beerz

Crozdog


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## Stagger (25/9/06)

I agree you need both rollers driven, here is a pic of mine i have cut gears so both are driven works a treat.


Silicon is added to aluminium to improve the machining ability, it called free machining aluminium



Stagger


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## dreamboat (25/9/06)

Stainless steel pipe (sched 10 would probably do, or sched 40 if you want the extra wall thickness) should be worth considering as an option.... light due to the big hole in the middle, strong and shiney as it is stainless. Yes it would take a little more work to get a shaft in etc... but may still result in a saving of a few bucks.


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## MHD (25/9/06)

Thats a very sexy beast Stagger....

I'm starting to get mill desperate with the troubles with Crankandstein...


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## TidalPete (25/9/06)

dreamboat said:


> Stainless steel pipe (sched 10 would probably do, or sched 40 if you want the extra wall thickness) should be worth considering as an option.... light due to the big hole in the middle, strong and shiney as it is stainless. Yes it would take a little more work to get a shaft in etc... but may still result in a saving of a few bucks.



If you can get the above in sched 40 (Marine grade316), diamond knurling & manufacturing (And selling the rollers seperately) to Crankenstien specs would encourage a lot more interest as a uniform size is the way to go.
Alternatively, Mild steel sched 40, diamond knurled & then nickel plated is a cheaper option of the above. 
Best to have the shafts ss/nickel plated as well with the bushes just plain brass unless ss sealed bearings are available? (Another option?)
For a (Slightly) less impressive mill downgrade to sched 10

Both rollers driven could be an option? Aluminium is way too soft as an alternative.
All the best.

:beer:


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## tangent (25/9/06)

i just want the bare guts of it, ready to balance a menagerie of buckets and funnels on top of it, by Festivus when Santa's got a hand full of cash ready to invest in brewing equipment and No-Brew alcohol.


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## BrissyBrew (25/9/06)

crozdog said:


> - whilst stainless is nirvana, I'd be happy with mild steel as long as it had been treated to electroless nickle plating (regular electro nickle plating won't fill the gaps in any knurling evenly, you'd get more coating on the peaks, but almost none in the valleys. As electroless is a chemical process, it coats uneven surfaces evenly.)
> 
> beerz
> 
> Crozdog


Hi Crozdog

Yes I was talking about electroless nickle plating, I should have specified just did not want too get too technical.


I would just like to say thank you for everybody who has provided feedback and input. Some design aspects I am not discussing at present, you will need to wait to find out more. But I have taken on board everybody's comments. 

My current thoughts are about roller material choice:
-mild steel rollers M1030 or 1045 (maybe electro less nickle plated), cost effective entry level mill.
-I will follow up hollow stainless steel rollers (I have explored this option prevously), not really a cost but a weight reduction factor.


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## stoutdrinker (25/9/06)

Hi Brizzy,
Great work!

I'm new to AG and whilst my Porkert mill is fine it was bought as a temporary measure until I could afford a "real mill" .Thats where you come in!

I believe steel rollers should be fine & with minor housekeeping ie cleaning, should remain rust free.

My only suggestions are bsed on the premise that generally you get what you pay for so,

-steel rollers sound cost effective
-use the best & most durable bearings you can get
-have an adjustable gap
-go for strength & durability as most brewers wont be looking to replace their mill too often
-ship ready to crush stright from the box

Looking forward to what you come up with,

Stoutdrinker


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## dreamboat (26/9/06)

i have been thinking more about the pipe option for the rollers, and initially it appeared more difficult as you would have to weld a plate on each end to hold a shaft in place...... I have been thinking about that a little more, and I now see this as a great opportunity to fit meshing gears to turn both rollers together.... ie, instead of just a round plate to suit the OD of the pipe, the plate is larger than the OD, and is laser cut with the gears in it to mesh with the second roller.


Rob


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## Justin (26/9/06)

One thing that seems to have been overlooked is diameter of the rollers, forgive me if someone did mention it.

If you want a really good mill you want large diameter rollers, and preferable a mild knurl. This in my opinion is far more crucial than whether they are stainless or not, I have mild steel rollers and have not had the slightest issue. I think SS would be overkill and add unnecessary cost IMO, plus it's harder to knurl. But hey?

Obviously it's a trade off between weight, size, need etc but I'd pick 2" as a minimum for diameter. The bigger they are the more nip you have to grab the grain and flatten it rather than relying on the severity of the knurl to grab the grain and pull it in.

I have a Barley Crusher which has 1.25" rollers and a pretty savage knurl, it does an excellent job and I get good efficiency still; but it does tend to pierce the grain and break it into 3-4 chunks (husk included) as opposed to really squashing the grain leaving a good intact husk with a nice powdered endosperm.

A brewing buddy has a nice home made mill that has 4" rollers and they are brilliant. The crush is absolutely superb and looks very much like rolled oats the way the husks remain intact, with a nice floured endosperm-it looks like you have added rice hulls. They are stainless rollers with a very fine knurl (because the SS is so damn hard), however it does have a small issue with feeding at times so could really do with a knurl that is a little more coarse.

Anyway, worth considering. Of course my Barley Crusher works fine and I have no complaints so that says something for how forgiving the crush can be but if you have the option of larger rollers I'd lean more to that side.


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## BrissyBrew (26/9/06)

Justin said:


> One thing that seems to have been overlooked is diameter of the rollers, forgive me if someone did mention it.


Oh yes this is why I have given so much consideration to the materials and weight. I am not however dropping any hints at the moment as to the size.


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## Kai (26/9/06)

Keen on hearing what the diameter is when the mill does come out, it'll be a definite factor when I have the resources to go mill shopping.


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## Screwtop (26/9/06)

For those who have never seen a CrankandStein, the rollers are diagonally knurled except for about the last 15mm of each roller which is straight cut. The reason for this is that grain is grabbed by the straight cut knurling and fed through ensuring that the non-driven roller is utilised at a suitable speed for whatever grain is being milled without the need for the added expense of gear driven rollers. Weight is reduced simply, brass bushes are also light and inexpensive to replace. No idea how long brass bushes would last at say one crush per fortnight of approximately 6 minutes duration but sure it's going to be many years. There are so many variables to be taken into consideration Frank. I wish you good luck, have ordered a Crank, can't wait sorry!


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## Sammus (27/9/06)

The poll says aircraft grade aluminium, tho bris and others talk about 6061, but I thought 7075 was aircraft grade?
I read somewhere that 7075 alu has a higher yeild strength than mild steel, dunno if that comes into as far as blunted knurling etc goes, I'm not 100% on what the term means, I'm pretty sure its right though I was told by a metallurgist...


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## mika (27/9/06)

7000 series aluminium is true aircraft grade for structural components, the 6000 series is still used in aircraft and as such is classified as aircraft grade.
We used to use it for Hydraulic manifolds @ 3500psi, it's certainly strong stuff.
Yield strength is a measure of the toughness of the material, what most people are concerned about is hardness, or the resistance to the rollers wearing, being imprinted by the grain.

Can't wait for the result BrissyBrew, gearing up for AG and next on the list is a mill


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## browndog (28/9/06)

The fact is, in the Aircraft Industry we use a wide variety of aluminuim, including 2024, 6061 and 7075. They all serve different purposes. The hardest we temper to is not T6 but T8 and this is pretty damn hard. Would it be suitable for knurled rollers? Well, the only way to know that would be to try it and see how it went. A pretty expensive exercise if they blunted. Personally, I would not risk it. Frank, forgive me if this has been brought up earlier as I have not read all the posts, but I have just finished building Ross's mill using a Crankenstein 3D and I have to say that the design for adjusting the roller gap is CRAP. If you are going to connect a pulley to the driveshaft, it will obscure the adjusting knob and you will have to remove the pulley every time you want to adjust the gap. It would be better if the adjustment is at the front al-la Tony's design. Take a look at Ross mill if you can't understand what I am on about.

cheers

Browndog


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/9/06)

I have the "Tony"mill and the gap adjustment works fantastic ans is very simple, although it really needs BOTH rollers to be driven as sometimes it wont grab the grain on startup

It also needs a fairly powerfull motor to run it. Sometimes I have to give it a helping hand when starting and it is a 3/4hp motor.

And forget hand cranking.....you will only do that once.. h34r:


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## AndrewQLD (28/9/06)

Good timing as always, I am looking at upgrading to a new mill from my marga.
I would be happy with:

Mild steel rollers
I would like to see a mill with longer rollers than the crankenstien and Barley crusher, perhaps 6".
Larger diameter would be good too
A good knurl but not too deep
and not fussed about a hopper.
It should also be fully adjustable on both ends of the mill.

Will be watching this thread with interest.

Cheers
Andrew


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## bigfridge (28/9/06)

mika_lika said:


> Yield strength is a measure of the toughness of the material, what most people are concerned about is hardness, or the resistance to the rollers wearing, being imprinted by the grain.



Close - but not quite right.

Yeild strength is a measure of the point where the metal permanently deforms (or 'yields' to the force being applied to it) and is related to hardness.

Toughness is the ability of the material to undergo deformation without fracture and is the opposite of brittle.

A piece of lead sheeting is tough but has a very low yield point. Something that has been hardened (like a file or chisel) is hard but not very tough. A spring on the other hand has a high yield strength, but also has very high toughness.

David


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## BrissyBrew (28/9/06)

browndog said:


> I have just finished building Ross's mill using a Crankenstein 3D and I have to say that the design for adjusting the roller gap is CRAP. If you are going to connect a pulley to the driveshaft, it will obscure the adjusting knob and you will have to remove the pulley every time you want to adjust the gap. It would be better if the adjustment is at the front al-la Tony's design. Take a look at Ross mill if you can't understand what I am on about.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


Hi Browndog, your right if you have a short short driveshaft a pully would get in the the way. What is the diameter of the pully you attached to the driveshaft.

cheers
frank


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## Batz (28/9/06)

I've been thinking of producing a mill for some time now,being a fitter and turner I have a few ideas.
Seems we may have a few on the market to choose from soon.

Batz


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## MAH (17/11/06)

BrissyBrew said:


> I have been busy with the design of the mashmaster mill. I am currently deciding on the best material to manufacturer the rollers from. I am dedicated to producing the best possible mill I can for a reasonable price.



Just bringing this back to the top to see how progress is going.

Cheers
MAH


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## Bobby (30/11/06)

is the mill going to be around before xmas??
hows the progress with the mills??


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## browndog (30/11/06)

> Hi Browndog, your right if you have a short short driveshaft a pully would get in the the way. What is the diameter of the pully you attached to the driveshaft.



Totally depends on the speed of your motor Frank. I would not expect to see one less than 6" or so. Mine has a 1450 RPM motor with a tiny pulley on it and the pulley on the mill is about 8" dia. giving 190 RPM.

Having said that though, the pulley is not solid and has gaps that you can use access behind it.

cheers

Browndog


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## BrissyBrew (1/12/06)

A standard 12mm shaft witha bit of extra length of accommodate the adjuster has been taken into account.

I have a couple samples of the bare bones mill on the way. The crank and hopper will come later. When they arrive I shall post some pics.


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## tangent (1/12/06)

that's all i need 
don't worry about the crank & hopper
when can i have one ?


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## BrissyBrew (1/12/06)

Tangent,
The two samples I am getting in are just that samples at present, I hope to have stock in by January (I was trying to make Xmas but things have been such that Santa's workshop has been busy doing other things).

I might auction one of the samples off if there is interest.
One stainless model comming and one mild steel (but case hardened and electroless nickel plated)

I will post more details when I have pics of the mill. But to give people an indication the mill will have 69mm diameter rollers, that's the same (edit: larger than) the size the barley crusher uses on there micro brew series mill (which they retail for $875.00USD plus S/H.), not their home brew mill. Plus 69 is just a great number. 
Ok I have to go too many beers for me to be posting much more info.


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## Bobby (17/1/07)

how is testing going?
how long till they will be on the market? price?


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## kieran (17/1/07)

Any word Brizzy?


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## BrissyBrew (18/1/07)

I have a sample sitting on my desk, however I am missing one part which I am still awaiting on.


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## Batz (18/1/07)

BrissyBrew said:


> I have a sample sitting on my desk, however I am missing one part which I am still awaiting on.




Those bloody Chinese :lol: 

Batz


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## BrissyBrew (18/1/07)

Batz I cant blame them totally half my fault.


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## MAH (2/3/07)

Bump!

How's this project progressing? Is there a release date?

Cheers
MAH


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## devo (2/3/07)

when are you gonna post some brew porn?


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## warrenlw63 (2/3/07)

It appears that you may now have to close your eyes and use your imagination.  

{Insert sleazy music here}

File Uploads

Warren -


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## BrissyBrew (4/3/07)

I am still working on the drive for the passive roller, I am currently trying various o-ring configurations, however I have not been 100% satisfied with the service life of the 0-rings, hence I am looking at experimenting with gearing the rollers, (Not a simple task considering the rollers are adjustable.)


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## ausdb (4/3/07)

BrissyBrew said:


> I am still working on the drive for the passive roller, I am currently trying various o-ring configurations, however I have not been 100% satisfied with the service life of the 0-rings, hence I am looking at experimenting with gearing the rollers, (Not a simple task considering the rollers are adjustable.)


How about a twisted belt drive? do you have any shaft sticking out of the edge of the mill?, an O ring would work


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## BrissyBrew (7/3/07)

Hi Ausdb
I have been playing around with 0-ring configurations however service life seems to be an issue, also reported by many barley crusher uses. I am going to give gearing a trial first to see how it performs


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## tangent (7/3/07)

I'd be willing to test a unit almost every weekend for you


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## Asher (7/3/07)

My Schmidling MaltMill with geared 2nd roller arrived last week...
.
Couple of design points for you to consider Brissy
- Although the MaltMill is adjustable, with the geared option the driven end is fixed at 0.045" and only the bearing at the other end is adjustable. 
- Also by choosing to drive the second roller with a gear you can have different numbers of teeth on each gear introducing a slight shearing motion if you choose to..

Cheers Asher


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## Kai (7/3/07)

I thought that was the primary purpose of a geared second roller?


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## BrissyBrew (7/3/07)

Asher said:


> My Schmidling MaltMill with geared 2nd roller arrived last week...
> .
> Couple of design points for you to consider Brissy
> - Although the MaltMill is adjustable, with the geared option the driven end is fixed at 0.045" and only the bearing at the other end is adjustable.
> ...


Hi Asher

I currently have designed but not tested (still getting a sample made) a gear roller solution that is fully adjustable on both ends, that way your not running your rollers skewed at one end and the roller gap is still fully adjustable that way.

The shearing idea comes from a journal article published some time ago, it was applied in a commerical style mill design, we are talking about 30cm diameter smooth rollers. It was experimented with for awhile but appears to have been dropped from designs again. I think the sheer is maybe half gimmik and half psudo science hence it is not a design consideration I am looking. Hence going to try to avoid odd gear ratios, anyways if you want any sheer action I can imagine that backlash created by some motorisation methods will add enough sheer into the equation without engineering more in.


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## Asher (7/3/07)

Thanks for the reply Brissy,
It sounds like you're already well into engineering new solutions to age old milling problems to me. I too am looking forward to seeing the finished results 

So good to hear someone's own ideas rather than the historical ones

Cheers
Asher


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## BrissyBrew (20/4/07)

A long overdue update:

After a lot of experimentation with o-ring designs I was not satisfied that an o-ring solution was what I wanted in the mashmaster mill. Other manufactures produce use them and they do work but have a limited life span which I found unacceptable. As a result I had to go back to the drawing and the release of the mashmaster mill was delayed. 
Mark II, has changed the design of the mashmaster mill to provide the first adjustable geared 2 roller mill. The gears have been custom designed and made specifically to provide a mill that is geared but is still adjustable.
Below are a few pictures of the pro-type. The rollers in the pictures are not stainless but nickel plated, I have some stainless models in the works as well for those who are interested in stainless steel rollers. With 69mm diameter rollers the only sized mill that comes close is the barleycrusher MICRO series mill. 
The eccentric adjustor provides over a dozen set adjustment points, from a large gap for crushing corn to the finest setting making flour or crushing some exotic grains and over course a good degree of adjustment for crushing run of the mill malted barley. Just dial up the adjustment and youre on your way.
I dont have a final price as yet as the pro-type is a mix of mark I and mark II components. 
The mill will also come standard with base hopper.
Browndog coat hanger testing will begin shortly.


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## warrenlw63 (20/4/07)

Wow!! That just looks plain horny :wub: 

BB Can you ever see yourself making a 3 roller model too up the track? :unsure: 

Warren -


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## lucas (20/4/07)

mmmmm... shiny


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## Ross (20/4/07)

Bloody excellent work Brizzybrew :super: - I might have a 2nd hand 3 roller Crankenstein for sale shortly B) 

Cheers Ross


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## Hashie (20/4/07)

That looks tops Brissy, if you need anyone to do field testing, I sticks me hand up


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## Cortez The Killer (20/4/07)

who needs to look at pr0n sites when there's AHB B)


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## Goat (20/4/07)

Nice work Brizzy - I suspect you are going to be busy when you go into production. 

I'm very interested in price, when you get the numbers together.


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## Wortgames (20/4/07)

Beautifully done Brissy!

Funnily enough I have been pondering a mill design, and it occurred to me that we could probably sacrifice some roller length in favour of diameter. I doubt many of us really need an especially high throughput, but a decent diameter has plenty of advantages. I see that's pretty much what you've done 

I love the look of the gap adjustment, I guess there is some kind of cam behind that knob? Very elegant.

With the rollers, to be honest I don't care what they are made from, and I bet most people would really be the same truth be told. As long as they are hard and hardwearing I'll take one. Stainless, mild steel, brass, aluminium, whatever - it isn't difficult to get the specs, and if you are happy with a particular material I'm happy to trust you. 

Regarding the hopper, I see that most folks have voted for a hopper to be supplied with it. Personally I think this is a mistake - I reckon any hopper worth having would add significantly to shipping cost and inconvenience, for what is essentially a large empty space. How about building it with a 'common solution' in mind? For example, I bet most of us could get our hands on a plastic water cooler bottle without too much drama, cut the bottom out and there's a pretty decent hopper/funnel right there. If you could build a simple 'adaptor plate' with the bottle neck in mind then I reckon folks could rig it up pretty easily themselves, and it wouldn't be hard for people to make up (or find) more glamorous solutions if that was important to them. I wouldn't want to pay extra to get a hopper that may not fit into the space I have etc.

Top work anyway :beer:


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## BrissyBrew (21/4/07)

WortGames said:


> Beautifully done Brissy!
> 
> Funnily enough I have been pondering a mill design, and it occurred to me that we could probably sacrifice some roller length in favour of diameter. I doubt many of us really need an especially high throughput, but a decent diameter has plenty of advantages. I see that's pretty much what you've done
> 
> ...


The adjustor is eccentric, the rollers run on bearings not bushes. 

The Hopper will flat pack and bolt together, it is only a feeder hopper, that capacity is not that big, and it is designed to allow people to add there own extension with ease, just a bucket with a hole in the bottom, to wooden or metal custom jobs. I attached a drawing of the hopper so you can get an idea of what I am talking about.


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## Hashie (21/4/07)

Can't wait for the finished product to be available. 
I was saving to get a 'Malt Mill' from the states, but I think I'll wait and get this Aussie made one instead.

Top work Brissy.


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## Doc (21/4/07)

As always it looks superb BB.
If my Valley Mill ever dies, I'll know where I'll be starting looking for a replacement.

Doc


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## tangent (22/4/07)

any timeframe or $$ yet?
with the AU$ so strong, I'm getting keen on a purchase soon.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (22/4/07)

Nice work Brissy.
I notice that the drive shaft on the prototype is round.
Do you intend using a hexagonal shaft which may be better for a drill drive, or will there be an option.


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## BrissyBrew (22/4/07)

Vlad the Pale Aler said:


> Nice work Brissy.
> I notice that the drive shaft on the prototype is round.
> Do you intend using a hexagonal shaft which may be better for a drill drive, or will there be an option.


Hi Vlad, the shaft is drive but it does have a flat milled on it.


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## redbeard (18/7/07)

Any updates Brissy ?


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## tangent (20/7/07)

bump


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## Murray (20/7/07)

Nice work BB.


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## BrissyBrew (23/7/07)

The shaft will be round with a 4mm keyway milled in it to allow motorisation or connection of a hand crank.

I am waiting for the final sample, I have been sourcing and testing parts from a few factories, and am now satisfied with the quality from on supplier, unfortunately I made a couple little change last design cycle and the factory will not mass produce until I approve a sample. Understantable but unfortunately it results in some delays. I am also getting the crank arm cast so lead time on that has delayed things a little as well. I expect the final sample by the end of this month, give me another 6 weeks post then to have it up on my website (figers crossed)


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## ozpowell (23/7/07)

BrissyBrew said:


> The shaft will be round with a 4mm keyway milled in it to allow motorisation or connection of a hand crank.
> 
> I am waiting for the final sample, I have been sourcing and testing parts from a few factories, and am now satisfied with the quality from on supplier, unfortunately I made a couple little change last design cycle and the factory will not mass produce until I approve a sample. Understantable but unfortunately it results in some delays. I am also getting the crank arm cast so lead time on that has delayed things a little as well. I expect the final sample by the end of this month, give me another 6 weeks post then to have it up on my website (figers crossed)



Any idea of price yet Brissie? (Even ball-park?)

Taking pre-orders?   

Cheers,
Michael.


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## glen (26/8/07)

coming soon...
picture has appeared, no price yet.
http://www.mashmaster.com.au/


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## matti (26/8/07)

Looks neat. 
Will you be competetive with the crankenstein rollers pricing?
I always look to support the home grown gear.


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## lucas (26/8/07)

looks freakin sweet!


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## Ross (26/8/07)

I think Frank got Tony (rice gulls) to do the editorial for him  

I've seen the mill up close & it's an absolute cracker, no pun intended :wub: 

Cheers Ross


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## tangent (26/8/07)

awesome!


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## Kai (26/8/07)

What can I say... I want one.


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## randyrob (26/8/07)

i'm in the market for a new mill as i'm getting sick of "hand cranking" my grain
what time frame are we looking at to get these, before chrissy would be killer?

Cheers Rob.


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## enoch (26/8/07)

"MillMaster is designed for professional micro breweries and pro brewers"

I hope this is marketing hype because it sounds like sit down before reading the price tag! I hope to be surprised...


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## Andyd (27/8/07)

Geez. I'm keen to get one, but looking at that picture I'm wondering how much of the house I'm going to have to sell off 

Here's hoping for a nice suprise pricewise - could make the perfect fathers day gift to myself 

Andy


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## Sammus (27/8/07)

Anyone want to pitch a guess? I have no idea what these are normally worth and couldnt be bothered looking it up. But I'm thinking maybe....I dunno $300 for the stock model +$100 for the stainless?

I'll reiterate that I have no idea what these are normally worth and I'm probably way off..


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## Enerjex (27/8/07)

I'll have a guess at $75, +$10 for SS rollers  


oh well, wishful thinking


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## tangent (27/8/07)

dunno about those prices Sammus, have a look what a Crankandstein cost. I'd say that's Brizzy's main competitor.
A mate of mine made up an awesome mill with freakin huge knurled rollers, but I can't convince him to make MarkII


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## enoch (6/9/07)

Brissy - any update on price and availabilty. Is it pitched higher than the barley crusher and crankenstein or will it be in the same $ range?

Decision time is upon me so is it worth waiting otherwise I will be going a crankenstein 3 roller in the next week or two?


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## JasonY (6/9/07)

Looks like a nice mill, I imagine it will be quite reasonably priced along with the rest of Bizzy's stuff. Worst case it has to be priced competitively against other mills or good ol competition will kill ya.

Great to see a local option, if I wasn't a non-local at the moment I would probably have waited but being where I am I gave in to the Crankandstein option.


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## Andyd (17/9/07)

Bump?


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## enoch (17/9/07)

Gave up waiting - now the proud owner of a Crankandstein 3D. I'm sure it will be a nice looking mill though.


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## Andyd (17/9/07)

enoch said:


> Gave up waiting - now the proud owner of a Crankandstein 3D. I'm sure it will be a nice looking mill though.



So what did Cranky set you back?

Andy


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## enoch (17/9/07)

Andyd said:


> So what did Cranky set you back?Andy



$299.95 - it was supposed to be a 3E but turned out to be a 3D (the one with detents on the adjustment) which should have been about $50 more - couldn't resist. May be cheaper to get direct from US but it was a bit of an impulse buy.


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## Andyd (18/9/07)

Ok. So what is the difference between the 3 roller Crankandstein mills, and the 2 roler style ala Mashmaster? I read the cranky blurb that talks about the first rollers softening the grain, and then the finer closing of the third roller opening the grain up, but how much of that is hype? Has anyone used both and measured relative efficiencies?

Andy


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## MAH (18/9/07)

enoch said:


> Gave up waiting - now the proud owner of a Crankandstein 3D.



A brewing mate did exactly the same today. he couldn't be bothered waiting any longer so bought a 3 roller CrankandStein. IHe said it will be about AUS$260 delivered from the States.

Cheers
MAH


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## T.D. (18/9/07)

Andyd said:


> Ok. So what is the difference between the 3 roller Crankandstein mills, and the 2 roler style ala Mashmaster? I read the cranky blurb that talks about the first rollers softening the grain, and then the finer closing of the third roller opening the grain up, but how much of that is hype? Has anyone used both and measured relative efficiencies?
> 
> Andy



I don't own a Crankandstein but I don't think its hype. The best results I have gotten from my Barley Crusher has been by crushing once on a fairly open setting and then putting it through again with a tighter setting. So basically replicating the 3 roller system of Crankandstein. I've been having a few dramas with my Barley Crusher recently though, and am very tempted to go a Crankanstein now that the AUD is nice and high. For pretty much the same money as I paid for the BC a couple of years back I could get a schmick top of the line Crankandstein.


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## Schooie (18/9/07)

Andyd said:


> Ok. So what is the difference between the 3 roller Crankandstein mills, and the 2 roler style ala Mashmaster? I read the cranky blurb that talks about the first rollers softening the grain, and then the finer closing of the third roller opening the grain up, but how much of that is hype? Has anyone used both and measured relative efficiencies?
> 
> Andy



The idea of 3 roller mills is that you get a consistent crush without ripping up your husk too much - the more intact it is the better it is for filtering the mash. 



From the Crankandstein site:

_Q. How does the 3-roller work? What is the advantage? 
A. The 3-roller mill has several advantages and few disadvantages. It has greater output than a 2-roller model running at the same RPM. It provides less husk damage, which aids in sparging. Also, the 3-roller mill more fully separates the starch from the husk, while providing superior grain feed, even with wheat. The 3-roller mill's only disadvantages are the additional power requirements to drive it, and the tendency for brewhouse efficiency to be higher than initially expected.

The 3-roller works by pre-crushing the grain in the preliminary gap between the top two rollers, then opening the husk to expose the crushed kernel in the secondary gap with the third roller. The top gap is fixed at .075" which easily pulls in both wheat and barley, softening the starch without tearing up the husk. There are gaps on either side of the third roller between it and the top rollers. The one closest to the driven roller is considered the front of the mill, where most of the grain will be discharged during milling. As the grain is pressed between the two main rollers, it covers the bottom third roller. The drive roller forces the grain out the front gap, separating the starch from the husk. The grain headed for the tighter rear gap merely drops onto the bottom roller, which delivers it to the front gap. While milling, very little grain will be expelled on the rear side of the mill. It is important to plan for this when designing your base/hopper. _


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## enoch (18/9/07)

I did the first trial run with mine last night with a few handfulls of pils. After a bit of messing around with my drill and BA mounting (to be redone on the WE) it ripped though it leaving pretty much whole husks, chunks and a bit of flour. A surprisingly "fluffy" grist which I took to be the result of the whole husks versus the more broken up ones from the LHBS's mill.

When crankandstein has a slightly less frankenstein mounting I will post some pics.


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## tangent (18/9/07)

from what i've seen you need to run the drill at a slow speed so you don't flour it too much.
this makes smoke come out of drills


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## T.D. (18/9/07)

tangent said:


> from what i've seen you need to run the drill at a slow speed so you don't flour it too much.
> this makes smoke come out of drills



:lol: I got my drill to smoke it up just recently - was a grist with lots of wheat in it. The smoke was really coming out thick and fast. I thought that was the end of the trusty XU1, but she's been going strong since then without any trouble!


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## PostModern (18/9/07)

lucas said:


> looks freakin sweet!



Is that picture mirrored or does the mill require an anti-clockwise crank?


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## enoch (18/9/07)

tangent said:


> from what i've seen you need to run the drill at a slow speed so you don't flour it too much.
> this makes smoke come out of drills



John

I think opening up the gap a bit more will help too. Initially smoked big time when I used pearl barley for a test - it is too hard for this as it jams in the thid roller. 

Might be be time for Ithat 'll show you mine if you show me your's session.

Bill


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## Jye (18/9/07)

PostModern said:


> Is that picture mirrored or does the mill require an anti-clockwise crank?



Just flip it over if its a problem.


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## BrissyBrew (19/9/07)

PostModern said:


> Is that picture mirrored or does the mill require an anti-clockwise crank?


I just placed it upside down for the pic, being symmetrical I probably did not think of it at the time, flip it over and the crank does turns clockwise.

The mills are on order and are about 60 days off (allowing for production and shipping time). 
I did consider the three roller mill design early in the design phase, but the benefits can be easily achieved by feeding grain through the rollers twice at different settings. Think of a 6 roller commercial mill, they get 3 passes, however not everything goes through the rollers 3 times, grist be can screened off after each roller pass, the more times you run the husk through rollers the greater husk damage. 

To reduce husk damage I looked at making the rollers smooth as possible, this requires a larger diameter roller to gain the necessary pinch. Smaller rollers get around this by ripping the husks through the roller with rough pointy knurled surfaces. Originally I was looking at o-ring drives but could not achieve a durable solution, simply they don’t last. The geared rollers will suck in grain at most settings with no knurl at all, however at the tightest setting (good if you want to bake a malty cake, or have great launtering equipment) the knurl was necessary to provide the required friction to suck the grain into the rollers. However due to the large roller diameter the knurl on the rollers could be made quiet fine. In addition the rollers are machined a second time after the knurling process to knock off tips of the diamond shaped heads, to increase the durability of the roller and to further reduce damage to the husks. My goal in designing the millmaster was not to make a cheap rip off of what is ready on the market. The mill has been designed to be a the next set up, suitable smaller micro breweries, home brew shops, and serious brewers. The only thing on the market that has a similar size rollers is the barley crusher’s micro brew mill and a 6 roller german made mill I came across.

Anybody in the Brisbane area that has a C&S or barley crusher that has not been boxed in to the extent that you cant see the mill anymore so I can take a couple pics for comparision.

cheers
frank


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## Wrenny (19/9/07)

How much?


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## Cortez The Killer (19/9/07)

That's the question on everyone's lips


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## Maple (19/9/07)

> That's the question on everyone's lips



and in quite a few posts...we're keen brissy, let us know....cost+overhead+margin...simple, no?


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## tangent (19/9/07)

well, in 60 days i'm buying a mill.
i've waited long enough. be it mashmaster or crankandstein.


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## Cummins (19/9/07)

I wouldn't classify 60 days as "soon".
And coming has one 'm'.


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## Andyd (28/9/07)

Hmmm... 50 days to go....

Not that I'm counting. Any ideas on likely prices yet Frank? I have to run this past the finance department...

Andy


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## Sammus (28/9/07)

The crankandstein writeups say it has 5" (127mm) rollers, is that diameter or length? if its diameter, the millmasters 69mm diameter doesnt seem all that big anymore...


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## T.D. (28/9/07)

Sammus said:


> The crankandstein writeups say it has 5" (127mm) rollers, is that diameter or length? if its diameter, the millmasters 69mm diameter doesnt seem all that big anymore...



I'd say that'd be the length Sammus.


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## Sammus (28/9/07)

T.D. said:


> I'd say that'd be the length Sammus.



Yeah I just remembered google is your friend, and it turns out they're 1.5in diameter. Puny!


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