# sick of being marketed at like a cash cow.



## barls (4/3/13)

i know from last time, i brought this up im not alone.
is any one else sick of some members coming in and only putting up post that are marketing their courses and not contributing anything to the community.
we are told that he’s a great source of knowledge, well how about putting some info up on here then or joining in on some of the conversations rather than coming in and pushing an expensive course in one post and leaving. i mean 600 bucks to learn how to all grain brew. hell i learned from other members on here and have been more than happy to share my knowledge.
whats others opinion on this.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

You should just read the posts that follow his other "adverts"...........That will give you your answer.


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## barls (4/3/13)

i know im just trying to put it right in the spot light and see if we can all come to a decision.
i was the comment that started it all last time. im not trying to hijack his thread so i started my own.


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## bum (4/3/13)

Just putting in my two bob because I've defended nameless milker a few times.

I agree that it would be nice if he were to help out in threads but I can see why he doesn't - I've never come home from work and then given my market my product for free. It doesn't really make much sense from his end.

I'm afraid this might read a little patronising but I assure I don't intend it that way but I am very glad to see you've started this discussion in a more appropriate place this time. He does post within the rules and with respect for board users and I'm not sure retail threads are the place to be slagging a bloke off (unless we've actually used said products).

On a somewhat related note - anyone seen that newish online-LHBS operator posting links to his products as answers to threads? I don't care if it is on topic - that is dirty.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

Why is there a decision to make. Some of us dont like it and some of us think that its ok for him to post his courses in the appropriate section and hes not breaking any rules so good luck to him. He might get more people interested if he did bother to become more actively involved in the forum but thats his business I guess and his problem.

I agree with you but thats just my opinion. each to his own I guess.


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## petesbrew (4/3/13)

Come on, Barls, he's not a chugger. It's not like he's jumping in front of you as you're walking down the street, trying to shake your hand, and ask for a minute of your time...

I have no interest in his course either, but only wish all the best to him & anyone who takes his courses.


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## DU99 (4/3/13)

$600 course..all you walk out with is the knowledge and some "freebies".least most of our retailers/sponsors particpate in the forum and give info and help fellow brewers.


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## Florian (4/3/13)

Barls, I think you should just learn to ignore his posts and get on with it. There are many other forum rules here that I don't like either.

The thread doesn't interest you, move on to the next. It's not that he starts 5 in a day, it's only one every few weeks or month or so. 

I totally agree that it would be nice to benefit from his knowledge, but if that's not what he wants to do then so be it. Might be a good decision or a bad decision for him marketing wise, but it _is_ his decision.


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## Batz (4/3/13)

Florian said:


> Barls, I think you should just learn to ignore his posts and get on with it.



I think that is the answer. _Not interested don't click_.

What gets up my nose is the free advertising when we have sponsers paying for their advertising. Most other retailers are at least Pro Members so they do at least contribute to the site.


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## GalBrew (4/3/13)

I don't see what the big deal is, he posts in the appropriate forum as per the forum rules. There are plenty of other posts on this website that I don't give a crap about either, I simply don't read them. This website has a retail section specifically for this sort of thing, it makes no sense to me why people get shitty everytime someone posts something commercial in there for free. I'm sure the other retailers get good value out of the retail forum so I think we all need to relax. Just because something is advertised does not automatically mean you need to buy it.

I would say that this thread is as big a waste of space as the retial thread mentioned by the OP.


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## mosto (4/3/13)

Batz said:


> I think that is the answer. _Not interested don't click_.
> 
> What gets up my nose is the free advertising when we have sponsers paying for their advertising. Most other retailers are at least Pro Members so they do at least contribute to the site.


Maybe that's the answer, make posting in the retail section open to only Pro members. Non Pro members could view and always PM a retailer if they have a question about a product. That way all advertisers would be contributing soemthing to the site. Obviously if people wanted to get around this by advertising in other sections, they would be promptly dealt with by the mods.


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## barls (4/3/13)

Batz said:


> I think that is the answer. _Not interested don't click_.
> 
> What gets up my nose is the free advertising when we have sponsers paying for their advertising. Most other retailers are at least Pro Members so they do at least contribute to the site.


dont click now anyway. just sick of seeing the topics all together while he contributes nothing.
also i was thinking that most of the sponsors are pro members, why not give them a bit more of a preference.
im sure if the management put it to him that it was preferred that he became a pro member since he chooses to not contribute in any other way, he may as well contribute to the upkeep of the forum as a benefit of his free marketing he has been getting.


bum. i agree with hiding links to your products in your own posts, unless its a post to advertise you are having a special on that item and its a new thread. that is low, if the product is good you dont really need to push it that hard.


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## pommiebloke (4/3/13)

It gets up my nose too especially when you have other retailers who pay for advertising and also contribute in other ways. For example. Ross from CraftBrewer contributes much knowledge and expertise to the forum and never pushes his products in your face.

Thing is, this Vince bloke is not breaking any rules and we don't set the rules. Until such time as Dane deems it to be an issue, it's really nothing to do with us so we just have to suck it up.

I personally wouldn't pay for one of his courses anyway so I just ignore it.


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## Nibbo (4/3/13)

There's a bit of difference in what each retailer supplies though.
Ross sells physical products so by giving advice over the forum is beneficial for him to be involved in.
Vince is supplying information in return for your hard earned money so by giving advice and info over the forum for free, he'd be shooting himself in the foot.

If he's posting in the correct thread and following all the rules, there should be no issue.
He's only offering a service that may be of benefit to some people. Freedom of choice.

Only my opinion...


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## Ross (4/3/13)

I have no problem with Vince or the like posting info on a course, easy to ignore if you don't want to know & will quickly drop off the radar if not responded to.
What does piss me off though (& it's sort of on topic) is retailers (as mentioned in earlier comments), posting links to their products in non-retail threads.
Retailers are not supposed to do this & it's against forum rules. The guys doing it, should know better!!! Threads could very easily become retail shit fights if we all started posting to threads saying buy from us, we are better/cheaper etc....


Cheers Ross


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

i will admit though its been asked before a few times yet not one peson has come back and given us feedback on what his courses are actually like, value for money etc. No that Im interested, Ive learnt more here, but still would be nice to know if they are any good to reccomend to new Hbers with LOTS of spare money.


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## bum (4/3/13)

That is complete bullshit, Truman.


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## brad81 (4/3/13)

I'm not sick of it.

I for one hope he posts more courses so it pisses you lot off even more.

AND bump the course costs to eleventy million rubles so you have to first convert your cash.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

bum said:


> That is complete bullshit, Truman.


Whats complete bullshit Bum?

That no one has posted feedback on his courses?? If so then I must have missed the post/s as I have never seen any feedback.

That im not interested because Ive learnt more here? Maybe, maybe not, I dont know because I dont know what his courses are like. Thats why I would like to read some feedback. But I have learnt a lot here, enough to brew some great beers.

Or did you mean recommending his courses to some new brewers with lots of spare cash?? Well if his courses are good I would recommend them, but they are expensive. I certainly couldnt justify spending $600 on a brew course unless I wanted to make it my career choice.

Please elaborate on what part of my post was COMPLETE BULLSHIT????


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## bum (4/3/13)

Truman said:


> Whats complete bullshit Bum?
> 
> That no one has posted feedback on his courses?? If so then I must have missed the post/s as I have never seen any feedback.


Yes, you have missed them because what you did was ask for the information then wait for it to come rolling in (the same as every other question that crosses your mind).

The Milk Man managed to find some - if you'd bothered to click the links he provides in every post you'd see two pages of testimonials, many of which are taken directly from AHB, others have names associated that you should recognise if you've been paying attention.

I also recall at least one instance of a successful commercial brewer here giving fairly high praise of the course he attended.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

Ive never asked for the information. I said others have asked but Im yet to see anything. Maybe they have but I havent. 

I have no idea what your talking about with Milkmans posts. Ive never seen a post of his with links to testimonials. Perhaps after 2 pages of people pro and against these courses I got sick of reading the thread and didnt bother anymore. Thats my perogative.

Terribly sorry I dont read every single post in every thread on here. Usually once all the bullshit starts and the shit slinging from the keyboard warriors start I give up and move on, like many others do. Thats probably why Ive missed milkmans posts about testimonials on these courses.


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## bum (4/3/13)

Truman said:


> Perhaps after 2 pages of people pro and against these courses I got sick of reading the thread and didnt bother anymore. Thats my perogative.
> 
> Terribly sorry I dont read every single post in every thread on here. Usually once all the bullshit starts and the shit slinging from the keyboard warriors start I give up and move on, like many others do. Thats probably why Ive missed milkmans posts about testimonials on these courses.


And yet here we are with you declaring that no one has ever said a good word about his courses.

Sure, you're quite correct when you say that you're entitled to do this but I'm wondering if perhaps you shouldn't?

But every thread of his links to his website as far as I can tell. Would make it a bit hard to sell his product if he didn't.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

I never said no one has said a good word about his courses. I said that Ive never seen any feedback about his courses. Ive seen testimonials about his courses posted on his website.

What I have never seen is a current member come on here and start a new thread and say,,"Hey guys I did this course on the weekend and heres what I learnt, it was great yada yada, or otherwise. If someone has Ive never seen it.

And I generally read all new threads.


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## bum (4/3/13)

Until you get sick of them, yeah?

So what you're saying is that someone needs to post within a specific timeframe or they don't exist? Explains A LOT.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

No what Im saying is if people didnt turn threads into slinging matches like so many do, and start having digs at each ther and making personal attacks about a person and all the other bullshit then I would probably keep reading them. But when they turn to shit I dont bother....Like so many do.

So what your saying is that in one of these discussions on the said courses someone has actually posted back saying they went to one of these courses and provied feedback on the said course??????

If so great, I will find the thread and read their feedback.


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## bum (4/3/13)

Assuming someone provides you with the links, yeah?


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## DU99 (4/3/13)

this discussion is showing up on "latest posts" i read them also.and make a comment.and yes i would like to see feedback before shelling out my money.considering i can go to grain and grape and attend a BIAB demo for Free.


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## Truman42 (4/3/13)

> So what your saying is that in one of these discussions on the said courses someone has actually posted back saying they went to one of these courses and provied feedback on the said course??????
> 
> If so great,* I will find the thread and read their feedback.*


You obviously didn't read properly.

And still havent answered the question which is what my post was originally about...Im yet to see a post on here with feedback good or bad. If there is one somewhere great, I will check the past posts from the said retailer, past what Ive already read and find it.

If not, then as i said........


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## dougsbrew (4/3/13)




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## Nick JD (4/3/13)

I like to offer my opinion on whether I think something is good value or not.

It's a problem I have.

This thread is good value. Not because of Vince's Free Set of Steak Knives approach, but more because truman bumfights are always giggle-worthy.


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## DU99 (4/3/13)

http://www.costanzobrewing.com/testimonials

this from HIS sight.but wouldn't hurt to place a few on here....like every sponsor or retailer i see here ,members give out recommendation's on this forum


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## WarmBeer (4/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> This thread is good value. Not because of Vince's Free Set of Steak Knives approach, but more because truman bumfights are always giggle-worthy.


urst


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## jayahhdee (4/3/13)

I agree with the sentiment that if a retailer wants to push their product without being a site sponsor then they should at least need to be a pro member.

I'm not a fan of Costanzo's marketing technique and think that if he is going to take advantage of this community by advertising to it, he should give something back to it somehow.


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## Econwatson (4/3/13)

Isn't he pitching to the wrong crowd anyway?

None of the experts are going to take any of his courses, and I feel that if a newbie (such as myself) has found this fantastic resource, it's unlikely they are going to pay for a course, when they can learn the information at their own pace from the fantastic population of experts on this forum for free or through becoming a pro member if they so choose.

I think he would be better off trying to link up with a HB store and offering his course at a discount if new brewers come in and buy a starter kit from that store. That would be the strategy I would pursue. I'm not saying that I agree with that strategy at all, I think to a certain extent it would be preying on new brewers who may not be all that informed.


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## doon (4/3/13)

Or perhaps offer a course which is nationally recognised and actually allows the people who fork out the cash to get a look in at breweries???


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## hsb (4/3/13)

Google would hit the posts - try "brewing course australia" - 2 hits on Page 1. And I'd guess as many wives/partners buy them as a gift perhaps.

This thread is testament to 'First World Problems'. Picking on this guy, when really, there are far more important things about which to worry.
Life is too short. I'm certain the poster's intention is not to harm anyone else, and they certainly shouldn't have to justify their existence.


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## pommiebloke (4/3/13)

So has anyone here actually ATTENDED one of his courses, and if so, what did they learn? h34r:


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## bum (4/3/13)

Econwatson said:


> None of the experts are going to take any of his courses, and I feel that if a newbie (such as myself) has found this fantastic resource, it's unlikely they are going to pay for a course, when they can learn the information at their own pace from the fantastic population of experts on this forum for free or through becoming a pro member if they so choose.


I think it would possibly limit our future skills if any of us decided that we could get complete exposure to all brewing ideas that we might ever find interesting here. There is great benefit to be had in looking to other resources as well - be they brewing texts (homebrew books and then maybe more technical books), homebrew clubs, other boards, brew days, LHBS attendants or even courses like Vince's. Lots of people respond better to more personal (as in "in person") teaching methods than "book learnin'".

I think you're possibly doing yourself a disservice if you decide to put _all_ your eggs in the AHB basket.


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## drsmurto (4/3/13)

Information from an experienced, knowledgeable, *brewing professional *versus a brewing forum full of amateurs spouting their own perceived wisdom (I put myself in the latter category).

Why do so many of you have your knickers in a twist? Bunch of grumpy bastards.


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## pommiebloke (4/3/13)

DrSmurto said:


> Information from an experienced, knowledgeable, *brewing professional *versus a brewing forum full of amateurs spouting their own perceived wisdom (I put myself in the latter category).
> 
> Why do so many of you have your knickers in a twist? Bunch of grumpy bastards.


Depends on what you're aiming for really. I'm just happy brewing quality beer that satisfies me. I'm really only brewing for own amusement as it were.

I feel I've learned enough from here and other websites and through my own experience (and mistakes) to do that well enough and I'm getting better with each brew. That said, I am always open to learning and I agree with bum that some people learn better with the personal touch and a course may well suit them, it's just not for me (especially if it costs cash money).

I'm sure if I was looking to set up a brewery business then I would consult someone who knows what they're talking about and has been there and done that.


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## Bribie G (4/3/13)

Does the dicko come in a box or do you have to attend to get it installed professionally?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/3/13)

I paid money to study brewing at Uni but I was taught by teaching professionals with qualifications. I would not pay for a brewing course
from non qualified persons. If its just for a hobby I dont see it matters who teaches as long as they "know their stuff "and that usually will come from peer reviews.
Nev
SP edit Just for manticle


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## Batz (4/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> Does the dicko come in a box ?


This thread is not going well. :huh:


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## manticle (4/3/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I dont see it matters who teaches as long as they "know their stuff "and that usually will come from pier reviews.
> Nev



Like this?







Or this?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/3/13)

AHB English to follow .
Umm yes, I like reviewing piers, whos the phat dude ?
No I dont study English, I leave that to less technical minded persons on AHB. 
Nev


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## bignath (4/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> Does the dicko come in a box or do you have to attend to get it installed professionally?



Nah it comes in a box Bribie.....simple as this clip shows mate.


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## jyo (4/3/13)

I am so doing that for the missus' birthday!


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## dicko (4/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> Does the dicko come in a box or do you have to attend to get it installed professionally?


I've been known to cum in a box or two over the years 

Very observant Bribie G and very funny 

Cheers


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## QldKev (4/3/13)

Give me the $600 and I'll tell ya anything you want to know about brewing.


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## Cocko (4/3/13)

jyo said:


> I am so doing that for the missus' birthday!


Well, thats ruined the surprise I was getting you...


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## dicko (4/3/13)

Big Nath said:


> Nah it comes in a box Bribie.....simple as this clip shows mate.



No link shows Big Nath or is it just this forum on ipad


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## bignath (4/3/13)

How does one go about posting a link that doesn't automatically show (in this case) the actual clip straight from the post??
fucked if i can work it out..

How do i just add the text from the youtube address without it displaying as the "target"?


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## Black Devil Dog (4/3/13)




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## GuyQLD (4/3/13)

DrSmurto said:


> Information from an experienced, knowledgeable, *brewing professional *versus a brewing forum full of amateurs spouting their own perceived wisdom (I put myself in the latter category).
> 
> Why do so many of you have your knickers in a twist? Bunch of grumpy bastards.


The good Dr pretty much summed up my entire response to this thread. Granted the majority of the audience here would probably look upon this product as superfluous in the home brew environment but his target audience as per his own website shows he's looking for clients who are wanting to take the next step or work in related industries. 

It might only be "interest" value to most of the community here but we have our own collection of members who have either gone pro or studied brewing at tertiary level. If this is the stepping stone for someone and they found it here, well so much the better. 

And this nonsense about having to be pro to make a thread because you may or may not gain something from it. What gain are we measuring? Financial only? Should bulk buys be limited to only Pro members? Should you pay a fee for asking a question? Six months ago there was no Pro feature and yet in such a short time it's become the measure of a mans contribution to a community? Fark me, half the bastards walking around with the bloody thing can't tell their arse from their navel. 

/rant

It's been a long day.


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## bum (4/3/13)

Yep, GuyQLD, thin end of the wedge there.


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## manticle (4/3/13)

Fat dude is Piers Akerman.

Couldn't resist Nev, especially when this thread is such a general waste of time.

People post shit jokes in the humour section sometimes. I cope pretty well. If someone posts a retail item in the retail thread that I don't want, I cope also.


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## Florian (4/3/13)

jayahhdee said:


> I agree with the sentiment that if a retailer wants to push their product without being a site sponsor then they should at least need to be a pro member.


I have no other words for it than 'what a load of rubbish".


GuyQLD said:


> And this nonsense about having to be pro to make a thread because you may or may not gain something from it. What gain are we measuring? Financial only? Should bulk buys be limited to only Pro members? Should you pay a fee for asking a question? Six months ago there was no Pro feature and yet in such a short time it's become the measure of a mans contribution to a community?


Sums it up well, people are taking this pro membership thing way to seriously! It's just an add on, nothing more. In the end it's only Dane profiting from the money that comes from the pro membership, not the community. The community and knowledge has always been here and it's existence was never 'at risk'.

EDIT: had to spell it out to avoid misunderstanding.


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## Mattress (4/3/13)

Cocko said:


> Well, thats ruined the surprise I was getting you...


Opens the box. COCK? Ohhhhhhhh.


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## manticle (4/3/13)

Pro is supposed to be opt in or not. Don't start making rules for it or it becomes the dreaded 'tiered' system which I, as a pro member will opt out of.


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## jayahhdee (4/3/13)

I am just putting forward a point of view that if a business wants to make a profit from the AHB community they should bee seen to be contributing to its growth in some respect, like many of the retailers already do, either through sponsorship, discounts or knowledge.

Costanzo doesn't seem to contribute anything other than a sales pitch.

Communities are built on contribution, IMO he is just taking advantage of what Dane has started and the Aussie brewing community and built. If he was to contribute in some fashion I would have no problem with him promoting his business.


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## jayahhdee (4/3/13)

I am just putting forward a point of view that if a business wants to make a profit from the AHB community they should bee seen to be contributing to its growth in some respect, like many of the retailers already do, either through sponsorship, discounts or knowledge.

Costanzo doesn't seem to contribute anything other than a sales pitch.

Communities are built on contribution, IMO he is just taking advantage of what Dane has started and the Aussie brewing community built. If he was to contribute in some fashion I would have no problem with him promoting his business.


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## bum (4/3/13)

So where do you propose we draw the line? Where do we say someone has carried their weight?

Yes, Retailer A, you've helped lots of people here, you're exempt. Sorry, Retailer B, your knob-gags are great but you've helped no one today - COUGH UP!

What if Retailer B lifts his game? Does he get a refund?


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## jayahhdee (4/3/13)

The line should be draw wherever Dane puts it, its his call, everything I've said is just an opinion.

Clearly Dane hasn't done anything to set a line in the sand and we can only assume without comment from him he isn't planning on it.

But that doesn't stop people from from having a dislike for Costanzo's marketing technique. Some of your are really getting your knickers in a knot about what was clearly the OP blowing off steam.


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## dicko (4/3/13)

It has been said many times... the bloke posts in the Retail section under the forums' current rules, so why pull his product apart with unfounded notions that his courses are no good.

If you have a complaint about his posts then contact a Forum Administrator, if you have a complaint about his product then state the facts here but remember you may have to defend what you say in a forum that has only one judge...

Maybe this forum should have a "Kangaroo Court" section :-/


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## bum (4/3/13)

jayahhdee said:


> Some of your are really getting your knickers in a knot about what was clearly the OP blowing off steam.


Well, I'm not sure anyone is upset with barls. He said is piece, some disagreed, others agreed.

Other people still came in and suggested that is improper for _certain types_ of users to post freely even when they post well within the rules as it is akin to an attack on the _community_ but maybe they could buy their way around this egregious affront to common decency.


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## Muscovy_333 (4/3/13)

DrSmurto said:


> Information from an experienced, knowledgeable, *brewing professional *versus a brewing forum full of amateurs spouting their own perceived wisdom (I put myself in the latter category).
> 
> Why do so many of you have your knickers in a twist? Bunch of grumpy bastards.


I know, I know, before I found AHB I used to make really bland beer. Just tasted like malt and hops.
Now I make all sorts of beer. I can split yeast packs down to a single cell and reculture them up as top fermenters with this fantastic insulating fur on the top of the wort in my fermenter. Best of all I can now make beer with fantastic wine like characteristcs, some that warm my belly, others with a beautiful butterscotch or blue cheese note and my favourite, that I call Grandmas orchard, reminds me of every variety of apple I have ever eaten all blended up, crushed and left to warm in the sun on the porch. Thats my favourite beer of all time. Thankyou to the collective knowledge.

NO harm intended, just jumping on the train wreck!


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## pk.sax (5/3/13)

First class coach is full mate. Pro members only. Now feck off!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/3/13)

manticle said:


> Fat dude is Piers Akerman.
> 
> Couldn't resist Nev, especially when this thread is such a general waste of time.
> 
> People post shit jokes in the humour section sometimes. I cope pretty well. If someone posts a retail item in the retail thread that I don't want, I cope also.


Looks like he enjoys a beer or 10
Nev


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## CamM (5/3/13)

pommiebloke said:


> So has anyone here actually ATTENDED one of his courses, and if so, what did they learn? h34r:


Yep. Went to the day long seminar. It was very informative, all about setting up a micro/brewpub.

There was very little on the actual process of brewing, and a hell of a lot about the process of starting a brewery. Location selection, equipment purchasing - not to mention a primer in business planning and start up realities.

What did I learn? At this point in my life I cannot accept the risk required to start that sort of business.

Was it worth the money? Absolutely, if you're seriously thinking about starting a brewery.

On topic: the man sells information, he follows the forum rules, give him a break and give this argument a rest!

Edit: spelling.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/3/13)

manticle said:


> Pro is supposed to be opt in or not. Don't start making rules for it or it becomes the dreaded 'tiered' system which I, as a pro member will opt out of.


Its a Maslows type of thing, belonging reward etc etc but with Pro you can buy that.
Internet study is really making me think different. :unsure:
Nev


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## bum (5/3/13)

Professional Computing Practice?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/3/13)

dicko said:


> It has been said many times... the bloke posts in the Retail section under the forums' current rules, so why pull his product apart with unfounded notions that his courses are no good.
> 
> If you have a complaint about his posts then contact a Forum Administrator, if you have a complaint about his product then state the facts here but remember you may have to defend what you say in a forum that has only one judge...
> 
> Maybe this forum should have a "Kangaroo Court" section :-/


Dicko I thought this was Kangaroo court section ??
Off to grab my wig and stand in judgment.
Judge Nev presiding


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## bum (5/3/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Dicko I thought this was Kangaroo court section ??
> Off to grab my wig and stand in judgment.
> Judge Nev presiding


As a retailer, I think you'll find that you're in the dock.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/3/13)

bum said:


> Professional Computing Practice?


Internet studies at curtin.
Very interesting, had enough of Java for a while.
Nev


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/3/13)

bum said:


> As a retailer, I think you'll find that you're in the dock.


Its the old switcheroo.
I dont think anyone noticed :lol:
Nev


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## bum (5/3/13)

Ah, my apologies. I thought "internet study" meant studying on the Internet.

Sounds like it'd be interesting. Enjoy.


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## punkin (5/3/13)

Firstly something which no-one has said yet, but thank you to the OP for starting this discussion in the correct forum instead of adding to the threadshitting in Vinces posts that is allowed to go unabated. This is where all this discussion should have taken place from the start, assuming there was any need for discussion (which there isn't).

I think that the threadshitting is the single worst thing about this forum. I've spoken to Dane about it and made reports in threads where it happens. I can't see where anyone has the right to go in to someones simple retail thread and tear the guy to bits for no reason other than you either don't want to buy his product or you believe he owes you something for free if other people want to buy his product.

By all means start another thread about it.

Send a message to the Admin or mods about it if you feel that strongly that he should not be allowed to advertise.


*But have some simple bloody manners.* :unsure:


As for whether he is doing the right or wrong thing there is no doubt at all that he is acting within the rules, therefore he should be protected from the attacks of a few people by the moderators and admin. That is what you are moderators for people.

Some of the uneducated attacks here from people even suggest that you should get a fee can of goo if you sign up to one of his courses. The person hasn't had the decency to even read the thread in question and understand the courses that are being offered, they just assume that it's a course for newbies to learn how to brew basic beer.
I have no opinion either way, but agree with all the posts that say if you don't care for it, don't click it.

I support everything Bum has said in the original thread and here (aside from the attacks on truman) towards respecting the guy. I would have said this in the thread in retail, but it is not the place for such comments.



I really believe in these instances the moderation team here has failed.

edit for spelling


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## petesbrew (5/3/13)

Had a look at the website last night. Seeing as he's running a consultancy based firm, I can see why he's not giving out advice for free on AHB.
Information is what he's selling.
A question though, is a course like this tax deductible if you're in the brewing business?


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## Muscovy_333 (5/3/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Dicko I thought this was Kangaroo court section ??
> Off to grab my wig and stand in judgment.
> Judge Nev presiding


Too late for the Wig Nev.....we know where you work!


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## GalBrew (5/3/13)

I think the title of this thread goes even further 'sick of being marketed at like a cash cow'. Should we just forgo the whole retail forum then? And should we remove all adverts from site sponsors, for that is also marketing. Should Dane not have Pro membership, again more marketing and perhaps is (unintendedly) creating a toxic, snobbish and entitled 'upper class' who think their opinions outweigh all others because they have shelled out $30??


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## bum (5/3/13)

GalBrew said:


> Should Dane not have Pro membership, again more marketing and perhaps is (unintendedly) creating a toxic, snobbish and entitled 'upper class' who think their opinions outweigh all others because they have shelled out $30??


Is this really what people think has happened? I've got the Pro Member badge hidden with Adblock Plus so I have no idea who is a pro and who isn't (except for when they declare such things in a post) and I can't say I've noticed anyone acting in any more entitled a fashion than usual.


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## Batz (5/3/13)

GalBrew said:


> I think the title of this thread goes even further 'sick of being marketed at like a cash cow'. Should we just forgo the whole retail forum then? And should we remove all adverts from site sponsors, for that is also marketing. Should Dane not have Pro membership, again more marketing and perhaps is (unintendedly) creating a toxic, snobbish and entitled 'upper class' who think their opinions outweigh all others because they have shelled out $30??


Then you would not have AHB, it's these things that pay for the site.

Pro membership is only a replacement for the old donation button, some people appreciated the site enough to make a small donation towards it's running costs. Now you get a Pro membership and it gives you a couple a very small things back.

If people find $30.00 an excessive amount to donate towards the running of the site fair enough, ride along for free, no one looking down their nose at you. 

My post way back was that in my opinion _, not AHB's, _a $30.00 donation for free advertising seemed fair....but not required or requested.

Batz


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## Florian (5/3/13)

petesbrew said:


> Had a look at the website last night. Seeing as he's running a consultancy based firm, I can see why he's not giving out advice for free on AHB.
> Information is what he's selling.
> A question though, is a course like this tax deductible if you're in the brewing business?


Most probably yes, possibly depending on your accountant. So basically, yes, it should be, but check before committing.


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## GalBrew (5/3/13)

Batz said:


> Then you would not have AHB, it's these things that pay for the site.
> 
> Pro membership is only a replacement for the old donation button, some people appreciated the site enough to make a small donation towards it's running costs. Now you get a Pro membership and it gives you a couple a very small things back.
> 
> ...


That is the point I was making re: adverts. They pay for the site, but the OP is sick of 'marketing' so go figure. As for the pro membership thing I was using that as another example of marketing. But make no mistake there is a beginning trend (albeit quite small ATM) of newly minted pro members who think their shit doesn't stink....just keep an eye out for it happens more than you would think. I think the strength of this site is its egalitarian nature and I hope the new pro member badge does not alter the sharing nature of this online community. Time will tell.


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## Batz (5/3/13)

> But make no mistake there is a beginning trend (albeit quite small ATM) of newly minted pro members who think their shit doesn't stink....just keep an eye out for it happens more than you would think.


Give me one example of this, personally I find it the other way around in that the non pro members get their nickers in a twist over pro members. I don't think pro members give a tinkers cuss who is what.

Batz


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## DU99 (5/3/13)

a forum costs money to run,there's server cost's,various types of software,power costs.i know we have sponsors also who help with part of the costs.considering the $30 is money well spent for all the info i have picked up and to help keep this wonderful forum going. :icon_offtopic:


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## doon (5/3/13)

I usually look at the forum on my phone the pro badge is too small for me to notice who had it


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## bum (5/3/13)

That's somewhat misleading, DU99. Dane suggests that the advertising fully covers the costs you mention (I do accept that this may not always be the case).

Check his blogs to get a better idea where the membership money is going. I'm sure you'll be just as happy with the membership.


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## GalBrew (5/3/13)

Sorry Batz I don't have all day to trawl through the forum to find my examples, to keep this idiotic thread going, just keep an eye out for it. Or will my point only be valid when I pay to be a pro member?


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## Batz (5/3/13)

GalBrew said:


> Sorry Batz I don't have all day to trawl through the forum to find my examples, to keep this idiotic thread going, just keep an eye out for it. Or will my point only be valid when I pay to be a pro member?


I didn't think it would take all day, you said it happens more than you think.....or do you just think it happens?


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## Tony (5/3/13)

GalBrew.

Im sure there will be people out there who think that because they have made a $30 donation to the site to support its running costs, that their poop dont stink. Some people will tend to stick their chest out further while behind the safety of a keyboard.

But there will also be the majority of people who dont feel this way, and will always offer to help and contribute to the forum.

I see it this way......... AHB is a public place, just like a shopping mall. Open to all who care to wander in and free to do what they want, say what they want and have their opinions, as long as they dont break the law or local rules set out by the management of said mall.

Some people will be trying to make a living selling stuff and contributing nothing else to the mass of society that has wandered in. Some go there to socialise, some go there because they have nothing better to do and just look around, and some go there to buy a product from a store. Without the shops, there would be no mall.

People on AHB will all differ in how they use the space. The retailers are here to sell something, some chose to contribute and socalise also, some just sit in their shop and wait for patrons to wander in. If they break the rules set out they are corrected. Some people will have opinions on how the place is run, and how others conduct themselves and they are entitles to have those opinions, and voice them, as long as they work withing the site rules.

People will also come across differently in test than they would in a face to face conversation. People often type how they would say something, but we forget as we read, thet the comment is missing tone of voice and facial expressions that we use more than we realise. I have upset and been upset by this very problem with internet chat.

I say relax, if you dont like it, skip over it or ignore it. If someone or something really gives you the poops, block it or them.

Use your jusgement on who to listen to and who not to, depending on what you want from AHB...... and let the rest just blend into the noise of the mall!

cheers


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## GalBrew (5/3/13)

Maybe not all day, but on the list of things I have to get done today it does not rate very high. I know we all think that the stuff that goes on in the interwebs is very important and that is fine, but I am seriously not wasting my day to make a point to someone I don't even know (other than an online version) about something that I don't care about that much. My original point was that so long as you post within the rules of the site, then you should be able to say what you like without having a 5 page thread dedicated to the merits of such. Maybe if we spent more energy on the brewing side of things than the bitching side the homebrewing landscape would be better for it.


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## Batz (5/3/13)

> Maybe if we spent more energy on the brewing side of things than the bitching side the homebrewing landscape would be better for it.


Could not agree with you more on that one.

I've had enough of this thread, no more imput from me......._Now what's in the glass?? _I like that thread.

Batz


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## QldKev (5/3/13)

GalBrew said:


> . But make no mistake there is a beginning trend (albeit quite small ATM) of newly minted pro members who think their shit doesn't stink....just keep an eye out for it happens more than you would think.



Naaa, we're just better brewers than the non pro-members :lol:


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## dicko (5/3/13)

We are pretty lucky here.
I was on a fishing site a few years back and if you didn't pay membership then you didn't post. You had the same access as if you are a "Guest" on this site.
Pro Member indicates that that member has donated to the site.... nothing more and if you don't want to donate then don't.

@Tony, excellent description and post.

Cheers


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## bum (5/3/13)

Batz said:


> I didn't think it would take all day, you said it happens more than you think.....or do you just think it happens?


I agree with this completely but also wonder if, perhaps, the same might apply to your perception that some members have knicker-twistage with pro members (as opposed to the concept of pro membership itself).


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## GalBrew (5/3/13)

bum said:


> I agree with this completely but also wonder if, perhaps, the same might apply to your perception that some members have knicker-twistage with pro members (as opposed to the concept of pro membership itself).


You are probably right bum, it will no doubt go both ways and I really hope that it does not divide the AHB community in any way. Now that said I am in full agreement with Batz.....what's in the glass?? :beer:


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## Econwatson (5/3/13)

Isn't the name "Pro Member" a poor choice for the title of what the donators actually are? The title could be inferred as elitist.

Wouldn't "Community Donator" or "Investor in the Community" or something snappier than that be a more accurate term, and remove any delusions that either donators or non-donators might have about their status in the forum?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/3/13)

I think this thread is exactly what social media is all about, communication and collaberation, weather you agree or disagree is a personal standpoint,
but you can NOT stop the OP for having a point of view, just as much as the guy selling his knowledge should be able to use the system.
This thread is not a waste of time as some have mentioned, in reality it is vital to the functioning of this social site.
Nev


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## Nick JD (5/3/13)

Well, my "AM MEMBER" avatar was quickly and quietly removed, so I have no doubts about what it's implication meant to the community's assumption of the meaning of Pro member.







I also liked the play on words that I _am_ a member, even though I choose to contribute by generating six figure hit rates on two threads that get people walking into the sponsors doors and spending thousands. But that's what I thought the good-side-of-the-internet was all about.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's all about generating income for site owners.


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## mosto (5/3/13)

Tony said:


> GalBrew.
> 
> Im sure there will be people out there who think that because they have made a $30 donation to the site to support its running costs, that their poop dont stink. Some people will tend to stick their chest out further while behind the safety of a keyboard.
> 
> ...


A very good analagy Tony, very well put.

Earlier in this thread I suggested that posting in the retail forum be limited to Pro Members. If I may, I'd like to take your analagy a little further to suggest that the retailers in the mall pay rent in order to sell their wares. I would say that charging retailers to post in that forum, by way of Pro membership, is essentially, rent. Sponsors, IMO, already pay 'rent', so should be exempt, and maybe could receive Pro status as part of their sponsorship package

I've got nothing against Vince, I read his first couple of threads, realised I wasn't interested, so I don't read his threads anymore. He posts where he should, so doesn't break any rules. My suggestion is not aimed to punish people like Vince, but generate money for the site.


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## Tony (5/3/13)

Masto...... limiting posting in the retail thread to Pro Members would solve nothing, limit retailes exposure to potential customers and act as fuel on the fire to the "us and them" issue, which is not what pro membership is about.

As for retailers being charged to post or advertise in the retail section, that will solve nothing either, and ends up bordering on descrimination. Where does the line get drawn? I can go to the buy and sell section and advertise stuff to sell privatly.

They wear the Retailers badge so that it is crearly stated what their intentions are when advertising, and yes, it would make more money for the forum, but i also dont think the forum is here to make money for its owner. Thats not what it is about.

Its a comunity.

Pure and simple. and it takes all sorts to make a comunity. Thats where there is a devision between AHB and my comparison to a mall. Generally, almost all people come here because of a passion for, or interest in beer and/or brewing.

I have said my bit, and i have also had enough of this thread.

Its good to see it finally calmed down into some resionably decent conversation.

cheers


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## Nick JD (5/3/13)

Tony said:


> Pure and simple. and it takes all sorts to make a comunity.


And that community will always call out those who do not contribute. It's human nature.


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## bum (5/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> But that's what I thought the good-side-of-the-internet was all about.


What's this got to do with pictures of naked women performing sexual acts on...well...pretty much anything, really?


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