# Style Of The Week 16/8/06 - Belgian Dubbel



## Stuster (16/8/06)

I thought we'd start the new forum this week with the delicious flavours of Belgian Dubbel, 18B on the BJCP style guidelines.

So what is your take on this style? Grains? Hops? Importantly, which yeast? Do you add sugar and if so what kind? Do you use any other ingredients? There are some Belgian kits out there so any feedback on them would be good. Any what are your favourite commercial Dubbels?

So tell us all you know about this style. :super: 




> 18B. Belgian Dubbel
> 
> Aroma: Complex, rich malty sweetness; malt may have hints of chocolate, caramel and/or toast (but never roasted or burnt aromas). Moderate fruity esters (usually including raisins and plums, sometimes also dried cherries). Rarely esters will include banana or apple. Spicy phenols and higher alcohols are common (may include light clove and spice, peppery, rose-like and/or perfumy notes). Spicy qualities can be moderate to very low. Alcohol, if present, is soft and never hot or solventy. A small number of examples may include a low noble hop aroma, but hops are usually absent. No diacetyl.
> 
> ...


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## KoNG (16/8/06)

Was this not your xmas case style Stuster...?
i think you should start   . I've never brewed one myself, so i will enjoy reading how its done.


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## Stuster (16/8/06)

It was kONg, but I'm yet to get many reviews on that so... :unsure: I'll put the recipe up anyway, any suggestions appreciated.

I used 1388 yeast. It was a slow worker (like its previous owner  ) but ended with high attenuation which you want for this style. I find it has a nice fruity/phenolic flavour and aroma.

JW dark crystal seems nice in this style. Munich seemed to give some nice maltiness. I cooked up some sugar on the stove as Mosher suggests instead of using dark crystal. Then the next belgian I just used straight sugar in the boil, and I can't say it made much difference. I used some coriander and orange peel in a Belgian pale ale, then didn't in a dubbel. Again, not a huge difference as most of those flavours seem to come from the yeast but I'll probably experiment with that in future batches.


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## Doc (16/8/06)

Dubbel is one of my fav Belgian styles. I like darker dubbels.
I've brewed a number of them and have got the recipe to pretty much where I want it, however next time I brew it I want to make one change. That is to the candi sugar. Will remove and replace with candi syrup when I can get my hands on some.

Beers,
Doc

*Abbey's Dubbel*

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

18-B Belgian Strong Ale, Belgian Dubbel

Min OG: 1.062 Max OG: 1.075
Min IBU: 15 Max IBU: 25
Min Clr: 20 Max Clr: 28 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 24.00 Wort Size (L): 24.00
Total Grain (kg): 7.81
Anticipated OG: 1.080 Plato: 19.36
Anticipated EBC: 20.4
Anticipated IBU: 29.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 10.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 28.24 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.068 SG 16.62 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
73.0 5.70 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
8.3 0.65 kg. Powells Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 3
6.4 0.50 kg. Candy Sugar 1.047 0
4.1 0.32 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 70
4.1 0.32 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 100
4.1 0.32 kg. Weyermann Carapils (Carafoam) Germany 1.037 3

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.00 g. Pacific Hallertau Pellet 4.20 25.0 60 min.
28.00 g. Pacific Hallertau Pellet 4.20 4.7 20 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Unit(s)Koppafloc Fining 15 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 7.31
Water Qts: 21.60 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 20.44 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 2.80 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 67 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 72 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 80 Time: 60


Total Mash Volume L: 25.32 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.


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## tangent (16/8/06)

Love this style.
To me it's all about the yeast and mouthfeel.
Crystal malts and phenolic aromas, like drinking a fortified wine.
I used to add a lot more crap to mine like raisins and juniper berries but I'm really getting off on their complexity from their simplicity. Higher mash temps and loads of malt 
I still can't pin down my favourite liquid yeast for this one, they're all so different but tasty.


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## razz (16/8/06)

G'day doc, why the candi syrup over the rock type ? I have not used either myself. :blink:


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## Doc (16/8/06)

The syrup is what the Belgians actually use and it is supposed to be much more authentic.
I had some on its way to me but Aussie Post mangled it and it got returned to sender in a rather sticky mess.

This is the stuff

Doc


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## mikem108 (17/8/06)

As part of my Belgian brewing Holy trinity, I'm doing one of these as the second.

First was the de Koninick clone or more of a Belgian single as instead of their yeast I've used the WLP530 which is going nuts climbing out of the fermenter and making all kinds of mess. Began ferment at 18C and let it climb to about 22 by day 4

On top of this yeast cake will go a Dubbel,Weyermann Boho Pils malt some caraaroma and dark crystal, dark candy sugar, Styrian goldings for bittering & hallertau for flavour.

The following week I will use this same yeast for a tripel. Base malt, wheat flour, white candy, Hallertau and Saaz


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## DrewCarey82 (17/8/06)

Sheez Mike, I'll have to query you about your recipes mate at our next meet am looking to do a Belgian shortly myself.


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## mikem108 (17/8/06)

Drew,
Will you be going the full AG or a Partial?


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## DJR (17/8/06)

Nice topic - i have a vial of WLP550 just waiting for something like this, or a trippel. 

Let's talk starters and aeration, with 1070 to 1085 OG is it important to step up with a large starter and aerate heaps, or is it OK to underpitch as it will increase the esters/phenolics anyway?

And what about the addition of sugar/fermentables in secondary, is it a better idea to start at 1050-1060 with your malt in primary and then add more in secondary?

Yeast - will the old Safbrew T-58 or S-33 be good enough, or should you be looking at a liquid yeast?


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## DrewCarey82 (17/8/06)

mikem108 said:


> Drew,
> Will you be going the full AG or a Partial?



Partial still mate, looking to going AG within 3 months.

But Stuster informed me the best way to convert a AG to Partial is to merely subsitute 1kg of some of the base grain for 700g of the appropriate dried or liquid malt. Keeping as much if not all of the specialty malts.

Cheers.


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## James Squire (17/8/06)

Am I correct in saying that historically the trappist beers were separate beers made from the first, second and third runnings of the same mash? IIRC this is known as 'partigyle' brewing?

Trippel being the first (undiluted) runnings, dubbel being the second.

Am I wrong?

JS


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## DJR (17/8/06)

James Squire said:


> Am I correct in saying that historically the trappist beers were separate beers made from the first, second and third runnings of the same mash? IIRC this is known as 'partigyle' brewing?
> 
> Trippel being the first (undiluted) runnings, dubbel being the second.
> 
> ...


 
Not quite, the trippel style is actually lighter in color than dubbel but higher in alcohol.


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## SJW (17/8/06)

Is there any good dry yeast worth trying with this style?


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## James Squire (17/8/06)

...trippel being higher alcohol as it comes from the first runnings? Were they fermented one after the other on the same yeast cake too?

Cheers,

JS


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## mikem108 (17/8/06)

DJR said:


> Nice topic - i have a vial of WLP550 just waiting for something like this, or a trippel.
> 
> Let's talk starters and aeration, with 1070 to 1085 OG is it important to step up with a large starter and aerate heaps, or is it OK to underpitch as it will increase the esters/phenolics anyway?
> 
> ...




SOme Belgian beer books mention that compered to others the Belgians pitch less yeast but this also varies from Brewery to brewery. With a high OG it is still importatnt to have plenty of yeast and lots or aeration.
The pitching rate to control the esters/phenolics is a fine art and without knowing the cell count I would rather err on the side of too much yeast than not enough. First Chimay red I did, there was insufficient yeast and aeration (due to inexperience) and the resulting beer had a fairly potent acetone nose for the first six months in the bottle, it disipated with time. 

Have put the sugar into the secondary in a previous Belgian but it was Dextrose with the Rock Candy I'd rather put it in near the end of the boil.

Having not used the dried Belgian yeasts I can't comment but the WLP550 made quite a tasty saison last year and as few Trappist breweries use the WLP530 I thought I'd give that a go this year.


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## James Squire (17/8/06)

Ok,

Bit of reading and got myself sorted. It is Partigyle brewing and the beers are made from the first, second and third runnings of the mash. Dubbel is darker than the Tripel as it uses dark candy as opposed to light candy. 



> The names of many Belgian beers include one of the words singel, dubbel, or tripel. These words, as you may have guessed, mean single, double, and triple; they are different styles of beer. The two classic styles are singel and dubbel. Dubbel is produced from the first runnings of the mash, and the single is made from the sparge/second runnings. The dubbel wort is re-inforced with dark candy sugar (less refined than white sugar). Tripel is a relatively recent innovation -- post WWII -- and is made from the first runnings with a large amount of pale candy sugar. All these beers are fermented two or three times, the last step usually in the bottle. Singels tend to be light and tart, dubbels dark and sweet, and tripels lighter and sometimes less sweet. The amount of alcohol typically increases from singel to dubbel to tripel.



Cheers,

JS


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## bindi (17/8/06)

I have Wyeast 3787 Trappist and I think some 1388 Belgian strong ale in the yeast bank, any of these two close to White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale ? <_< Which I can't get up here.


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## DJR (17/8/06)

bindi said:


> I have Wyeast 3787 Trappist and I think some 1388 Belgian strong ale in the yeast bank, any of these two close to White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale ? <_< Which I can't get up here.


 
3787 is not WLP550 (doc corrected)... Although the white labs site reckons 550 is not that good for dubbel?

I had heard that some belgian types are from parti-gyle, would be interesting to run the first runnings as a trippel using cane/light candi and then the second runnings as a dubbel using dark candi, use slightly different hops and the same yeast for both - 500, 530, 550, 570 or 575 (the blended one) and see how they differ after a couple of months in bottles.


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## Doc (17/8/06)

bindi said:


> I have Wyeast 3787 Trappist and I think some 1388 Belgian strong ale in the yeast bank, any of these two close to White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale ? <_< Which I can't get up here.






DJR said:


> bindi said:
> 
> 
> > I have Wyeast 3787 Trappist and I think some 1388 Belgian strong ale in the yeast bank, any of these two close to White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale ? <_< Which I can't get up here.
> ...



The old conversion chart from HBG says that WLP500 is WY3787.

Here is the old chart.

Beers,
Doc 

View attachment White_Labs_vs_Wyeast_Comparison_v2.pdf


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## DJR (17/8/06)

Doc said:


> bindi said:
> 
> 
> > Aha... just the thing i was looking for. The belgian conversions are all over the place, everybody has a different set of conversions, i had read that they were the same. Seems that depending on who you ask, 3787 is either 500, 530 or 550!
> ...


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## mikem108 (17/8/06)

From BLAM
""Wyeast sources: 1214 (Chimay), 1762 (Rochefort), 3522 (Achouffe), 3787 (Westmalle), 3864 (Unibroue), 1388 (Duvel), 3538 (Corsendonk) White Labs sources: WLP500 (Chimay), WLP510 (Orval), WLP530 (Westmalle), WLP540 (Rochefort), WLP550 (Achouffe), WLP570 (Duvel).


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## Doc (17/8/06)

mikem108 said:


> From BLAM
> ""Wyeast sources: 1214 (Chimay), 1762 (Rochefort), 3522 (Achouffe), 3787 (Westmalle), 3864 (Unibroue), 1388 (Duvel), 3538 (Corsendonk) White Labs sources: WLP500 (Chimay), WLP510 (Orval), WLP530 (Westmalle), WLP540 (Rochefort), WLP550 (Achouffe), WLP570 (Duvel).



Isn't there also a chapter in BLAM that details which breweries share/swap their yeast as well ? ie. Does Chimay swap/share with Westmalle etc ?

Doc


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## mikem108 (17/8/06)

Doc
I think the Westmalle is the most swapped yeast, the other breweries in the area apparently rock up on brew day at Westmalle to pick up their yeast, the only one I can remember at the moment is that Westmalle and Westvleteren
use the same yeast but I recall there are at least one other that use Westmalle yeast and thats Achel?


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## laurent (18/8/06)

Doc said:


> The syrup is what the Belgians actually use and it is supposed to be much more authentic.
> I had some on its way to me but Aussie Post mangled it and it got returned to sender in a rather sticky mess.
> 
> This is the stuff
> ...



Hi Doc,

from some online Belgian stores on HB, it seems that the Stuff comes in 2 shapes: Rock and Liquid. See here: Brouwland Candi Sugar page

Looking for more information on the sugar, the Belgian legal system states as follow:
*Inverted sugar*: less than 50% inverted sugar in dry weight. Liquid with less than 62% weight of dry solids
*Inverted sugar syrup*: more than 50% inverted sugar in dry weight. Liquid with less than 62% weight of dry solids
*Candi Sugar*: more than 96% Sucrose. Solid form
*Candi Sugar syrup*: Candi Sugar by-product. Liquid. More than 85% Sucrose in dry weight

It seems that your stuff is rather some Inverted Sugar syrup (the label itself does not state candi). However, everybody is refering to candi sugar in Belgium and Brewferm provides advanced kits with candi sugar in rock shape, so it must be sucrose.

All is confusing. I found some Lyle's golden syrup at Harry's farm the other day (3 for 6$). Let's see how this goes instead.

See ya,
Laurent


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## Snow (18/8/06)

Excellent - a topic close to heart!

I've had very good success with the 3787 in both dubbels and Tripels (1st place in the 2003 nationals), but to keep it on topic, the best tasting dubbel I've made used this yeast. FWIW, the recipe is a partial mash:

1kg German Pilsener malt
2kg pale liquid malt extract
1kg pale dry malt extract
250g medium crystal malt (60L)
250g Cara Munich
250g Cara Aroma (dark crystal - 350 EBC)
55g Saaz pellets 60 mins
15g Fuggles pellets 2 mins

I also made a good dubbel (3rd highest score in Class at the 2005 ACT/QLD comp) with Wyeast 3944 in this recipe:

1.7kg German Pilsener
500g Light Munich
250g Amber
250g Melanoidin
400g Caramunich
400g Caraaroma
500g Dark Belgian Candi Sugar
2kg Light DME
30g Hallertau (3.4%AA) - 60 mins
25g Saaz (2.8%AA) - 60 mins
10g Goldings (4.7%AA) - 30 mins
10g Saaz (2.8%AA) - 10 mins

Both of these beers I fermented at 22-24C, with big (3-4L) starters and as much aeration as my arms coulkd administer at the time. I've found the toughest component to work out is the bitterness and hop aroma levels, depending on the type of yeast you're using. It's really just trial and error with one strain of yeast until you get it right. I also found that the 3787 tended to noticably mutate with multiple generations, and not necessarily for the worst. I still have a mutated version of that strain from 2002 and it is still producing nice tripels and wits.

The one thing I've had trouble in bringing out in my dubels is that elusive "plumminess" that the good commercial dubels have. I suspect it's the type of malt I'm using - caraaroma versus Special B, maybe?

Cheers - Snow.


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## buddingbrewmaster (25/9/06)

thanks for the recipes snow.

i find it quite hard to find a good partial mash recipe for belgium styles. i might give one of yours a crack in a month or two, i'm just wondering what the size of your batches were.

cheers


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## milpod (4/5/07)

'partigyle'

is english brew term?


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## therook (16/12/08)

Dumped this onto a Belgian Pale Ale yeast cake of Ardennes last Tuesday, 5 days later it has finished fermenting.

Down from 1.072 - 1.012

Looks good, hope it tastes good

Belgian Daily Dubbel
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 7/12/2008
Style: Belgian Dubbel Brewer: Rook
Batch Size: 20.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 26.37 L Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %



Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 55.1 %
1.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (31.0 EBC) Grain 23.6 %
1.00 kg Candi Syrup Dark (180.0 EBC) Grain 15.7 %
0.20 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (70.9 EBC) Grain 3.1 %
50.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (60 min) Hops 20.4 IBU
1.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
5.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
0.15 kg Cane Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 2.4 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.072 SG (1.062-1.075 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.018 SG (1.010-1.018 SG)
Estimated Color: 44.9 EBC (19.7-27.6 EBC)
Bitterness: 20.4 IBU (15.0-25.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 7.1 % (6.0-7.5 %)

Mashed at 67c - 90 minutes


Rook


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## scott_penno (16/12/08)

Hi Rook,

Have been considering brewing up a Belgian style ale. How long do you need to leave something like this to age before it's at it's peak in terms of drinkability?

sap.


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## therook (16/12/08)

sappas said:


> Hi Rook,
> 
> Have been considering brewing up a Belgian style ale. How long do you need to leave something like this to age before it's at it's peak in terms of drinkability?
> 
> sap.




Funny you should ask that sappas as i just asked that same question to one of the members in an email

6 - 8 weeks

Rook


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## [email protected] (16/12/08)

Had a Grimbergen Dubbel on my trip to Greece & England in September. Lovely beer, better than the numerous Tripel's I tried.

Cheers
Mal


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## warrenlw63 (16/12/08)

sappas said:


> Hi Rook,
> 
> Have been considering brewing up a Belgian style ale. How long do you need to leave something like this to age before it's at it's peak in terms of drinkability?
> 
> sap.



Sappas

Probably a minimum of one month in the bottle. Somewhere around the 3 month mark should see it drinking well. Also being a bigger beer the carbonation can take a little longer in the bottle.

Good to see another Pascoe Vale resident on the forum!  

Warren -


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## petesbrew (8/5/09)

Got a chance for another AG very soon, so I'm gonna do a Dubbel
Just knocked this recipe up in beertools, any comments welcome, thanks guys.

Category Belgian Strong Ale 
Subcategory Belgian Dubbel 
Recipe Type All Grain 
Batch Size 23 liters 
Volume Boiled 33 liters 
Mash Efficiency 72 % 
Total Grain/Extract 6.91 kg. 
Total Hops 47.0 g. 
Calories (12 fl. oz.) 275.2 
Cost to Brew $32.63 (USD) 
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.) $0.50 (USD) 

5 kg. Australian Traditional Ale 
0.5 kg. German Dark Munich 
0.25 kg. Belgian Special B 
.250 kg. Weyermann CaraMunich III 
0.1 kg. Melanoidin Malt 
0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark 
0.31 kg. Cane Sugar 
30 g. Styrian Goldings (Pellets, 6.00 %AA) boiled 60 min. 
17 g. Saaz (Pellets, 5.00 %AA) boiled 5 min. 
Yeast : White Labs WLP530 Abbey Ale


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## bindi (8/5/09)

You lose 10L during the boil,boil for how long, and where do you get the 0.25 kg. Belgian Special B [I now use Cararoma in it's place], why 0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark +
0.31 kg. Cane Sugar and not one or the other? Otherwise go for it.


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## petesbrew (8/5/09)

bindi said:


> You lose 10L during the boil,boil for how long, and where do you get the 0.25 kg. Belgian Special B [I now use Cararoma in it's place], why 0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark +
> 0.31 kg. Cane Sugar and not one or the other? Otherwise go for it.


Cheers Bindi, here's the answers to your questions.
1. Boiling up for 90min... yeah, um evaporation rates are a bit sketchy there. I may drop that initial amount down a few litres (especially after diluting my last AG)

2. Looking in Brewing Classic Styles, they mention Special B (120L) 227g.... I think I'll go for your Cararoma in it's place. I still have Sweet FA idea about all the different Cara grains, so am open to suggestiions and experimentation.

3. Sugar, as above, but yeah, I'll take it as it comes. Might even use 300g Palm sugar in place of the cane sugar (as per a previous Big Brew Day BGSA recipe).
The dark candy sugar will be home made.


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## glennheinzel (8/5/09)

Special B is available from Craftbrewer and others.


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## glennheinzel (8/5/09)

Petesbrew - The Hills are alive with the sound of Dubbels because I'll be brewing the following on Saturday-

OG 1.064
IBU 23
Batch size 21 litres
4.9kg Wey Pils
0.45kg Munich
340g Belgian Candi sugar (I will be playing around with sugar quantities)
230g Cane Sugar
230g Belgian Aromatic
230g CaraMunich
230g Special B
43g Tettnang 4% for 60 min. (may sub with Hallertau tradition or similar) 
WLP500

FYI - The recipe is mostly based on JZ's and he lists a mixture of candi and cane sugar.

Edit - Doc cracked the grains last night and it smelled amazing (Belg Aromatic?). I can't wait to actually mash in tomorrow morning.


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## petesbrew (8/5/09)

Rukh said:


> Petesbrew - The Hills are alive with the sound of Dubbels because I'll be brewing the following on Saturday-
> 
> OG 1.064
> IBU 23
> ...



Cheers Glenn, 
Haven't got aromatic, so I'm using Melanoiden in it's place. 
That's pretty much the recipe I was looking at as well, but also looking through the brew like a monk book I may throw 100g raisins into the fermenter as well.

I'll tee up Doc this week to crack it all, and grab that urn of yours. Cheers!


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## petesbrew (11/5/09)

A few slight mods to my recipe... I haven't used any cara grains before so any input is welcome.
Made the dark candi sugar last night.
The jury is out regarding whether to add the raisins.... they say on the ingredients (raisins, vegetable oil), so I'm re-considering

Dubbel up (Surely I can come up with a better name than that! <_< )
May 7, 2009 

Category Belgian Strong Ale 
Subcategory Belgian Dubbel 
Recipe Type All Grain 
Batch Size 23 liters 
Volume Boiled 30 liters 
Mash Efficiency 72 % 
Total Grain/Extract 6.75 kg. 


5 kg. Australian Traditional Ale 
0.5 kg. German Light Munich 
0.25 kg. Weyermann CaraAroma 
.250 kg. Weyermann CaraMunich I 
0.25 kg. Melanoidin Malt 
0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark 
35 g. Styrian Goldings (Pellets, 4.6 %AA) boiled 60 min.
17 g. Saaz (Pellets, 3.2 %AA) boiled 5 min. 
100 grams raisins (not included in calculations) 
Yeast : White Labs WLP530 Abbey Ale or 500 Trappist


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## jimmyjack (11/5/09)

Your recipe looks similar to mine except I used the Amber liquid candy sugar from Craftbrewer. Add the raisins you wont be sorry!! Go 200 g raisins. Also start the ferment around 18 and then reset to 20 on day 3 then 22 onwards.

Cheers,

JJ


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## petesbrew (11/5/09)

jimmyjack said:


> Your recipe looks similar to mine except I used the Amber liquid candy sugar from Craftbrewer. Add the raisins you wont be sorry!! Go 200 g raisins. Also start the ferment around 18 and then reset to 20 on day 3 then 22 onwards.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> JJ


Cheers JJ.
Temp control is non-existant in my brewery. I brew with the seasons. (and extra icepacks in summer)


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## petesbrew (11/5/09)

Any suggestion on what to do with the raisins re: sanitation? or just bung em in & rack on top?


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## jimmyjack (11/5/09)

yea I threw them in last lO minutes of boil. this was the best dubbel I have ever made.


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## mikem108 (11/5/09)

I was going to make one soon


Pils Malt 2.5kg
Vienna 2 kg
Carapils .5 kg
Dark Belgian Candy Syrup (157EBC) 500mls
Hallertau 60 mins 25 IBU's worth
WY 3787 yeast

is what I came up with


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## pmolou (11/5/09)

got this bubbling away in the fermentor atm

15litre batch
2kg LME
500g Sugar
250g CaraAroma
100 Carafa I
100g CaraMunich III

IBU 20
20g Styrians @10minutes

Wyeast 1388

was going for a very dark sweeter beer

Smells phenomenal sofar


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## petesbrew (12/5/09)

Recipe revised
5 kg. Australian Traditional Ale 
0.5 kg. German Light Munich 
0.25 kg. Weyermann CaraAroma 
0.25 kg. Weyermann CaraMunich I 
0.2 kg. Melanoidin Malt 
0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark 
30 g. Styrian Goldings (Pellets, 4.6 %AA) boiled 60 min.
17 g. Saaz (Pellets, 3.2 %AA) boiled 5 min. 
100 grams raisins (not included in calculations) 
Yeast : White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale or WLP500 Trappist 
IBU = 18.9
Just to sort out which yeast now. Might go the belgian, as I haven't used it yet.


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## Snow (19/8/10)

Thought I'd revive this thread, as I am brewing a dubbel to take down to ANHC for Club Night. 

I managed to get my hands on Special B, biscuit malt and dark candi sugar, but i was a little unsure as to the amounts to use, as I haven't used them before. Here's the recipe:

Batch size: 22L

3.50 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 51.85 % 
1.70 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 25.19 % 
0.50 kg Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 7.41 % 
0.30 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM) Grain 4.44 % 
0.30 kg Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4.44 % 
40.00 gm Saaz [3.70 %] (60 min) Hops 19.4 IBU 
15.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.0 IBU 
1.00 items Sodium Metabisulphite (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
5.00 gm Chalk (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
0.45 kg Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 6.67 % 
1 Pkgs Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787) Yeast-Wheat 

Mash 60 mins at 64C
est. OG: 1.070 

Does anyone think 500g of bicuit malt is too much? And is 300g fo special B and 300g caramunich too much crystal malt?

Cheers - Snow.


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## hazard (19/8/10)

Snow said:


> Thought I'd revive this thread, as I am brewing a dubbel to take down to ANHC for Club Night.
> 
> I managed to get my hands on Special B, biscuit malt and dark candi sugar, but i was a little unsure as to the amounts to use, as I haven't used them before. Here's the recipe:
> 
> ...


I reckon the crystal malt should be fine. There's plenty of munich in there already, so may not need 500g of biscuit malt, but it can't hurt can it? Also, with this much crystal, you should only need about 250g of dark candi sugar to get the colour up, i expect that with the amount added you would be getting close to black rather than brown, but thats just a matter of preference.

I also like dubbels a bit stronger, and would add about 1kg of dextrose.


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## Snow (20/8/10)

Thanks hazard. I added that much candi sugar, as I wanted to lighten the body a bit. Maybe I'll go half and half dark and light?

As for the biscuit malt, I thought it added a different character to the beer than Munich. Are they pretty similar?

- Snow.


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## bradsbrew (20/8/10)

Hey Snow are you adding the candi sugar during ferment??

Cheers


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## mje1980 (20/8/10)

Snow said:


> Thanks hazard. I added that much candi sugar, as I wanted to lighten the body a bit. Maybe I'll go half and half dark and light?
> 
> As for the biscuit malt, I thought it added a different character to the beer than Munich. Are they pretty similar?
> 
> - Snow.




Biscuit has much more flavour, and is more "nutty". Hard to describe exactly but has a very nice flavour. My fave spec malt now.


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## Snow (20/8/10)

bradsbrew said:


> Hey Snow are you adding the candi sugar during ferment??
> 
> Cheers



I was planning to add it in the boil, for extra caramelisation. I didn't feel I needed it to go in during the ferment as my OG is only 1.070, so the yeast should be able to get through it in the one hit.

Cheers - Snow.


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## Snow (20/8/10)

mje1980 said:


> Biscuit has much more flavour, and is more "nutty". Hard to describe exactly but has a very nice flavour. My fave spec malt now.


Excellent! So do you think 500g is ok in my recipe?

- Snow


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## Phoney (20/8/10)

I recently brewed Kabooby's Belgian Dubbel (from the recipeDB)

I added 500g of candy sugar in the last 10 mins of the boil, then 500g of brown sugar 5 days into ferment. I was a bit dubious adding that much sugar in when the temperature was at 24C but I tasted it yesterday and I cant seem to detect any fusel. Did taste very strong though. Set to crash chill this morning, will dump in gelatine this evening, polyclar on Sunday and bottle on monday.


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## winkle (20/8/10)

Snow said:


> I was planning to add it in the boil, for extra caramelisation. I didn't feel I needed it to go in during the ferment as my OG is only 1.070, so the yeast should be able to get through it in the one hit.
> 
> Cheers - Snow.



Out of interest Snow what colour where you aiming for?
Beersmith gives a recommended range of 12.0-22.0 SRM, my recent one is 17.6 SRM and that looks too pale for mine (Dark Brown Sugar my arse Coles!), although it might scrub up ok once the yeast has fully flocced off.


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## Snow (20/8/10)

winkle said:


> Out of interest Snow what colour where you aiming for?
> Beersmith gives a recommended range of 12.0-22.0 SRM, my recent one is 17.6 SRM and that looks too pale for mine (Dark Brown Sugar my arse Coles!), although it might scrub up ok once the yeast has fully flocced off.



My Beersmith gives an upper range for Dubbels as 14SRM. I was aiming for something darker than this, around 20-22 SRM. I know my recipe calculates around 26 SRM when I replace half the dark candi with light candi, but I suspect the dark candi isn't as dark as beersmith lists it, nor is the special B I bought from craftbrewer. Not sure about caramunich as I haven't bought it yet...

- Snow.


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## winkle (20/8/10)

Snow said:


> My Beersmith gives an upper range for Dubbels as 14SRM. I was aiming for something darker than this, around 20-22 SRM. I know my recipe calculates around 26 SRM when I replace half the dark candi with light candi, but I suspect the dark candi isn't as dark as beersmith lists it, nor is the special B I bought from craftbrewer. Not sure about caramunich as I haven't bought it yet...
> 
> - Snow.



Oops, had changed my mind from brewing a BDS to a dubbel - but hadn't adjusted the style box . (or didn't ok the changes)
Hmmm, my version of Beersmith lists 18B Belgian Dubbel as a range of 10.0-17.0 SRM.
Whatever, the colour it ended up still looks a bit anaemic, so I'd be inclined to agree with your suspicions and what I was originally trying say (rather poorly).


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## Snow (20/8/10)

winkle said:


> Oops, had changed my mind from brewing a BDS to a dubbel - but hadn't adjusted the style box . (or didn't ok the changes)
> Hmmm, my version of Beersmith lists 18B Belgian Dubbel as a range of 10.0-17.0 SRM.
> Whatever, the colour it ended up still looks a bit anaemic, so I'd be inclined to agree with your suspicions and what I was originally trying say (rather poorly).



I know what you mean Winkle........ thousands wouldn't  

To be honest, I am less concerned with colour than getting that elusive "plumminess" in the beer, hence the emphasis on dark candi and Special B. 

- S.


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## warra48 (17/10/10)

I've never brewed a Belgian of any sort previously, but I have a donated starter of WY3787. (Thanks to waggastew).

I'm thinking of an ale in the style of a Dubbel, although the colour is probably darker than style (I'm not concerned about this).

Any thoughts or suggestions on my first recipe design would be welcome.

Belgian Dubbel 23.00 L

4500.00 gm Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (5.9 EBC) Grain 75.00 %
500.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 8.33 %
200.00 gm Caraaroma (390.0 EBC) Grain 3.33 %
200.00 gm Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3.33 %
100.00 gm Amber Malt (85.0 EBC) Grain 1.67 %
25.00 gm Hallertau NZ [8.10 %] (60 min) Hops 19.0 IBU
10.00 gm Hallertauer Tradition [5.70 %] (5 min) Hops 1.1 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
500.00 gm Candi Sugar, Dark (541.8 EBC) Sugar 8.33 %
1 Pkgs Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787) Yeast-Wheat

Mash at 65C for 60 minutes. Anticipated OG 1.067.


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## manticle (17/10/10)

I've brewed a few but most I've been fairly unhappy with. I'll give you what I consider helpful from what i've read and what I've tried.

First of all 3787 is pretty phenolic. I've used it a few times and it's a great yeast but if you don't get things right, the balance can suffer.

Secondly I've found sugar added in increments works better in high gravity belgians. Add a bit at a time after primary is finished (in your case maybe in two lots of 250 g).

Mash temp is something I've been trying to work out. My current thinking is that the best results will come from a step mash (pretty sure Orval mash low at the beginning and finish high - something like 63/72). Certainly i've had malty, full bodied, well attenuated beers recently from trying this kind of stepped sacch mash. Otherwise try mashing high but long - belgians are dry at the finish but deceptively full bodied - so are many German beers. My belief is that Belgians are a combination of English and German mashing/fermentation techniques.

As for style - I think a lot of the appeal of Belgian beer is rule breaking while still making good beer. Unfortuntely I've struggled to work out how they do it - most recent dubbel is the most promising yet but I won't know for another few months as I'm going to age it in bulk this time (so easy just to crack one more bottle).


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## jakub76 (17/10/10)

Hey Warra,
Just bottled a dubbel today, finished a few points lower than expected but trying a new yeast Wy1214 for the first time so I guess I'll take it as it comes. Good to read that the yeast you've got is quite phenolic. My previous dubbel based on Jamil's recipe (Hallertau instead of Tett) turned out just like Leffe Radieuse with huge dark fruit, malt complexity but little to no phenolics form WLP530. I much prefer Chimay Red with its giant caramel and spicey phenols so I changed my yeast, went for amber instead of dark candi syrup, pulled back a little on the specialty grains and used a pile of caramalt. Hydro sample tasted very promising though it's come in at 7.5% so it might need a few months to settle out.

Your recipe looks good though I would throw in 200-250g of Special B if you can get it. I reckon it will give you the raisin and dark dried fruit flavours that will bridge your malt profile with the dried fruit flavours that the dark candi will impart. 

Are you using candi rocks or syrup? What's your preffered comercial example?


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## warra48 (18/10/10)

Thanks jakub.

Unfortunately, I was only in MHB's shop last Friday afternoon, and didn't get to pick up any Special B. I'll have to rely on the Caraaroma instead.

I was thinking of making my own candi sugar. Picked up some Citric Acid today, and plan to invert some sugar myself. I note Wyeast recommend adding the sugar during the fermentation process, so that's what I'll do, rather than adding it to the boil. 

I'm never fussed about brewing exactly to style, so long as I make beers I enjoy. I have 4 litres of starter going gangbusters, so should have plenty of yeast to pitch.


Thanks also manticle. It wil be no problem to do a step mash, 63 & 72C is possible with my system. I note Wyeast suggest to ferment this yeast in the range of 18 to 25C. I'll probably start at 18C for the first couple of days, and then allow it to rise from there as I feed it the candi sugar.


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## moonshine (18/10/10)

I've only made a few belgians (and the last triple i made wasn't really a triple due to a mixup with a us05 starter, made my american dark ale a bit interesting though)

the one double I made that realy did shine got a lot from the spesh B (raisins+dark malty yumm?)
and used wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II (a yeast i would definitely recommend again). the other Belgians i've made didn't really make it (good beer just notgreat?)

I based my recipe on a westmalle clone recipe crossed with a rochefort 8 clone recipe (tweaked to what i had in my brew cupboard) and adapted to BIAB.
I'll try and dig up the recipe cos it was a winner.

+1 to the adding of sugar incrementally.


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## Gulpa (19/10/10)

Ive been reading up on this style after my last very average attempt at a Dubbel with the phenolic 3787. Apparently ester production increases significantly in higher gravity beers and this yeast seems to need lots of esters to balance the phenolics in the final beer. Your OG is only 1067 with sugars. I would be inclined to add the sugar to the boil to try an increase ester production. This yeast will chomp through that very easily.

my 2c

cheers
Andrew.


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## warra48 (19/10/10)

Gulpa said:


> Ive been reading up on this style after my last very average attempt at a Dubbel with the phenolic 3787. Apparently ester production increases significantly in higher gravity beers and this yeast seems to need lots of esters to balance the phenolics in the final beer. Your OG is only 1067 with sugars. I would be inclined to add the sugar to the boil to try an increase ester production. This yeast will chomp through that very easily.
> 
> my 2c
> 
> ...



Thanks Andrew.

I might actually up the base malt somewhat on this one, so the OG will be higher. The recipe is still in the planning stage, although I'll probably brew it this weekend or on Monday. As the yeast is a High Gravity yeast, I had thought it should be able to chew through a 1.070 to 1.075 brew easily enough. I guess if I can simplify the process, I'm all for it. I can control the fermentation temperature, so that is not an issue.

The starter is going nuts in 4 litres of wort. Seems to be a true top cropping yeast, as there is lots of it floating on top. Seems to be a lovely white creamy colour, much lighter than many other yeasts I've grown.


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## stef (19/10/10)

I've been thinking about doing a Dubbel for a little while now. Thought i might do a small dubbel brew and a small tripple (like, 10ish litres of each- due to storage issues) and put them away for 6ish months...

I've got "Brewing like a monk" on its way here from the library to have a read of, as i dont really want to put away these brews for 6 months only to find out they are feral.

HOWEVER, i'm only gonna do them with extracts...

I'm after big, malty, sweet and fruity- for sipping on during winter nights. Got no idea about recipes yet, but thought i'd aim for about 10% for the tripple and 6-7% for dubbel. If anyone has done anything similar and has a recipe they want to share that'd be great. Otherwise i'll do my reading and see what i come up with!

I dont usually like very dark beers, so think i'm gonna try to keep them to a dark amberish colour...


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## waggastew (21/10/10)

Stef, 

I bottled my first dubbel attempt two weeks ago. I too dd a reduced batch size as I did not need/want 23L of high gravity beer, just something to sip occassionally next winter. In the end I used a TC Pilsener as a base kit, about 250mL of Belgian Candi Sugar, and about 250g of dex/malto dex. I pitched the 3787 Belgian High Grav yeast and it took about 4 weeks at 20dgeC to ferment out to 1010. From the tasting I did during bottling I would say:

1. You definitely need to use candi sugar (or suitable substitute) to get the right character
2. You definitely need a specialist yeast
3. This recipe could do with a bit more body, possibly by adding malt or doing a small steep with spesh B as discussed above.

BTW the volume was made upto 13L. Will report in 6 months when its had time to think about itself! 

PS. The colour with the above recipe was a caramel golden colour, not at all dark (and therefore probably more in line colour wise with a triple)


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## manticle (14/11/10)

Just sipping the occcasional glass of a recent attempt. I've had great trouble trying to make decent belgian style beers including dubbels. Most attempts have used 3787 which I think requires serious attention. It's adds a very strong character to a brew which if you get the balance right would no doubt be delicious - raisins, stone fruits etc. However I have been very dissatisfied with my attempts and have shelved them until I have a base recipe I'm happy with using a less phenolic yeast.

Current one used a slightly more complex grain bill and 1388. However it was initially intended to be aged as a sour beer - after chilling and tasting the wort I decided to add 1388 instead. Therefore the recipe is more complex and uses more crystal malts than my reading leads me to believe is necessary.

Has come out rich and delicious, with a beautiful red colour when held to the light. There are tweaks I would make such as reducing the amount of crystal, using belgian pilsner malt and dropping out either the vienna or munich but it's given me a good place to start. Might also up the IBU by 4 or 5 points next time and would probably step mash from 64 for 10 minutes to 68 for 50 minutes. The reason it's mashed so high with so much malty and crystally goodness is that brett beers (its original, intended destination) do well with a good whack of dextrins to chew on. Definite winter/christmas beer.

Recipe was

OAKED DUBBEL 
Type: All grain 
Size: 17 liters

Color: 33 HCU (~17 SRM 
Bitterness: 23 IBU

OG: 1.059

FG: 1.005

Alcohol: 7.0% v/v (5.5% w/w)

Grain: 2kg JW Pilsner
1kg Wey Vienna
1kg Wey Munich
100g Ding Special B
250g JW med crystal 70-80L
250 JW dark crystal

Dark candi sugar in increments after primary of 100g up to 400g.

Mash: 69 degrees, 60 mins, 70% efficiency

Boil: 60 minutes SG 1.040 25 liters

Hops: 20g Styrian Goldings (3% AA, 60 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)

1388
Secondary oak for at least 1 month


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## mje1980 (10/4/13)

Been reading BLAM, and loving chimay red at the moment, so I'm going to brew this next. I love how its malty and not bone dry like the lighter Belgians. I plan on using a cube of brown ale to step up the yeast, as I think from the descriptors of the yeast, a brown ale might turn out nice with it. 

82% MO ( out of pils )
5.7% amber invert ( demerrara )
4.1% Belgian dark candy syrup 
4.1% flaked barley
2.5% biscuit
1.6% spec b

55-15, 62-45, 72-15

1.067
17.5 IBU

1762

I have some dates in the cupboard that I may try next time, but for my first, I'm going to go fairly conservative


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## Logman (10/4/13)

I'm putting in a Belgian Stout today (my first Belgian :beerbang: ) and plan to add an Amber Candi Sugar at some point.

Should I stir this in at the start of fermentation or at day 4 or so?

If day 4, what's the procedure - does it need much stirring?

Oh, and I've got a Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II, is a starter essential - gravity is 1060 before the Candi Sugar....


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## Logman (11/4/13)

I put the Belgian on yesterday without a starter, it was a recent batch of Wyeast and it's going crazy with the blow off tube - plus I figure it has two fermentation steps with the Candi Sugar going in so I wasn't concerned about the starter so much.

Just need a few tips on adding Candi Sugar at day 4 - anyone done this? Wondering how much it needs to be stirred in and how vigorously...


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## manticle (11/4/13)

I put my candy in in stages once active fermentation has ceased. For example, if adding 800g total, I add 200g, wait a few days, then add 200 more.

I don't stir.


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## beerbog (11/4/13)

My liquid candy sugar was put into the boil, 500g of the dark stuff. :beerbang:


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## Logman (11/4/13)

manticle said:


> I put my candy in in stages once active fermentation has ceased. For example, if adding 800g total, I add 200g, wait a few days, then add 200 more.
> 
> I don't stir.


I had some efficiency problems with this mash due to not adding enough water :unsure: - my first beer like this. Looking at 1.070 total (7.7 %) with the Candi Sugar. Are you adding it in steps to help the FG get right down or just to make sure all of the Candi Sugar is consumed?


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## seamad (11/4/13)

I think the theory behind adding in increments is to help prevent production of higher alcohols and other "off" components from the yeast operating with a high OG with simple sugars.
Having said that I've made some belgians up tp 1.080 with all sugar in boil and not had problems.


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## manticle (11/4/13)

Logman said:


> I had some efficiency problems with this mash due to not adding enough water :unsure: - my first beer like this. Looking at 1.070 total (7.7 %) with the Candi Sugar. Are you adding it in steps to help the FG get right down or just to make sure all of the Candi Sugar is consumed?


Just to be a bit gentler on the yeast.

Some people report no issues but I have noticed higher alcohols in beers where I've added a kilo at once whereas my high gravity Belgians seem to exhibit less when I add in increments.


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## scon (11/4/13)

Ah, just found this thread. Having a bunch of friends coming down for Christmas in July this year and am hoping to have some kind of tasty belgian style beer in prime drinking condition ready for the celebrations.

I'm just about to pull the trigger on this recipe. Anyone have any thoughts on it? I'll be going for the Belgian Candy Syrup D2, now with that, if I wanted to add that to primary in stages, would I water it down first so it would mix through more thoroughly? I understand that with regular sugar it probably wouldn't be a problem but I can see all of the syrup falling to the bottom and not being incorporated by the yeast? Or should I just add it at the end of the boil?

The other concern I have is with the spice additions, they're added at either 5 or 15 minutes, I'll probably be adding them in a voile bag, should I remove the bag before putting it in the fermenter to reduce off flavours or should they go straight into the primary?


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## Logman (11/4/13)

manticle said:


> Just to be a bit gentler on the yeast.


I see, OK well I'm using 500ml so I'll go for a couple of stages at least. Thanks for the tips gents.



scon said:


> If I wanted to add that to primary in stages, would I water it down first so it would mix through more thoroughly? I understand that with regular sugar it probably wouldn't be a problem but I can see all of the syrup falling to the bottom.


 :lol: that's the sort of thing I was wondering, it's weird doing something for the first time.


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## manticle (11/4/13)

The yeast will find the sugar if you give it time.


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## manticle (11/4/13)

scon said:


> Ah, just found this thread. Having a bunch of friends coming down for Christmas in July this year and am hoping to have some kind of tasty belgian style beer in prime drinking condition ready for the celebrations.
> 
> I'm just about to pull the trigger on this recipe. Anyone have any thoughts on it? I'll be going for the Belgian Candy Syrup D2, now with that, if I wanted to add that to primary in stages, would I water it down first so it would mix through more thoroughly? I understand that with regular sugar it probably wouldn't be a problem but I can see all of the syrup falling to the bottom and not being incorporated by the yeast? Or should I just add it at the end of the boil?
> 
> The other concern I have is with the spice additions, they're added at either 5 or 15 minutes, I'll probably be adding them in a voile bag, should I remove the bag before putting it in the fermenter to reduce off flavours or should they go straight into the primary?


Just grind the spices up and chuck them in the boil with 10 mins to go. No need for a bag. If using a bag, I would remove it.


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## mje1980 (11/4/13)

Logman, let me know how the 1762 goes mate, im keen to try it.

I've only brewed one tripel where i added sugar post fermentation, but the beer attenuated like crazy, which is what its supposed to do.

For mine, i'll have a full fresh yeast cake, and its only 1.067, so i'll just add my syrups to the boil.

I ended up brewing a bitter today, as im playing around with ph strips to see what my "standard" mash ph is. Currently sipping a Fullers london porter, but next up is a red chimay. Num num!!


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## Nick JD (11/4/13)

1762 is quite unlike most of the other Belgian Ale yeasts.

It doesn't produce much at all in the way of classic "belgian" flavours.


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## mje1980 (11/4/13)

Care to explain further? I picked it because i liked the sound of more esters, and restrained phenolics. I prefer the more estery belgian beers, and not the super dry spicy ones. Just a preference


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## manticle (11/4/13)

I've got a Rochefort 10 homage in my fridge exploding from the top with 1762. Smells like Raisins and fruit cake.

I've used it a few times before - contributes plenty of Belgian character Mark


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## Nick JD (11/4/13)

mje1980 said:


> Care to explain further? I picked it because i liked the sound of more esters, and restrained phenolics. I prefer the more estery belgian beers, and not the super dry spicy ones. Just a preference


I've made APAs with it. There's no banana or bubblegum or pear or basically much fruit at all from 1762. A touch of peppery spice and some very background esters, but no more than you'd get from a UK yeast.

Fron Wyeast:
_An excellent yeast strain for use in Belgian dark strong ales. This strain has a relatively “*clean profile*” which allows a rich malt and distinctive ethanol character to shine. Delicate dried fruit esters can be produced when used at higher fermentation temperatures or in a high gravity wort._

If you're looking for Chimay or Leffe type beers you will fall short using 1762. As manticle says, it's Rochefort's strain. It's useful for making Rochefort clones and useless for most other fruity belgians.


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## mje1980 (11/4/13)

Ooooh raisins and fruitcake sound perfect!. I have a uk brown ale that will be the "starter". I reckon that'll work well. WHat ferment temps?


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## mje1980 (11/4/13)

What do yo use for fruity, but low phenols?? I guess ferment temp could come into it as well


I won't be upset if the beer comes out anything like the rochefort beers!


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## manticle (11/4/13)

I always start Belgians lowish - around 17 then allow to rise over 3 or 4 days to about 21-22 to finish.


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## mje1980 (11/4/13)

Thanks mate, will update.


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## Nick JD (11/4/13)

mje1980 said:


> What do yo use for fruity, but low phenols??


3522 @ 22C. Beautiful! Or if you want banana to dominate use 1214 in the early 20s.

If you're expecting "fruity" from 1762 prepare for disappontment. Most of manticle's raisins and fruitcake will be from spec malts, dark sugaz and phenols.


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## Logman (11/4/13)

I thought that number sounded wrong :unsure: - I used Wyeast 3787 - Trappist High Gravity. Man it's going wild in there.



> This type of yeast benefits from incremental feeding of sugars during fermentation, making suitable conditions for doubles and triples, to ferment to dryness.


Sounds perfect!


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## manticle (11/4/13)

While there's a touch of spec B in there Nick, there's no dark sugar yet.

I have to disagree with you on this - this is not my first time using the yeast and I find it has plenty of Belgian character.


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## Nick JD (11/4/13)

Fair enough, but I still contend it's no 1214 or 3787.


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## manticle (11/4/13)

They're different yeasts for sure. I used a little spec B in a UK bitter recently because I had run out of heritage crystal and I can say for certain that the aroma of the 1762 with some spec B and the aroma of the bitter with 1469 are very different.

3787 is certainly a beast, 1214 is a banana factory and 1388 (one of my favourites) is different again. Ardennes, FF, Biere de garde - used them all, love them all, different characters for all.

All depends on how you run them, starter size and grist of course.


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## Josh (13/4/13)

Anyone got any experience using Weyermann Abbey malt in a Dubbel?

I've got two plans of attack to make a Dubbel.

1.
Blend of Pilsner and Abbey malts to the desired colour. Thinking of starting with a 50/50 blend and working from there over time.

2.
All Pilsner malt and making my own dark syrup to add colour and flavour, kinda like the Belgians.

For both.
Ferment with Wyeast 3787 pitch 18C rise to 25C
Single 60 minute addition of Styrian Goldings.

Thoughts?


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## mje1980 (14/4/13)

Not in a dubbed, but I've used it as a sub for biscuit malt. I used 40% of it in a brown ale, and it was wonderfull.


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## Logman (27/4/13)

This Belgian Choc Wheat Stout has been fermenting for 17 days - I switched from a blow off tube to an airlock about 6 days ago and yesterday it was still bubbling - looks like it's stopped today although it's still producing a bit of pressure. I added the bottle of Candi Sugar in 4 installments starting at about day 7 and at the last addition gave it a very gentle stir on the bottom and it really took off again - can't believe how much grunt the yeast has (haven't done one of these before). I guess it's time to start taking some readings - nice to know it's going to ferment right out.

Can really smell the bubblegum in there. :wub:


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## iralosavic (27/4/13)

Yum! Grimbergen is very underrated in my opinion. Great dubbel - very easy to drink compared to most too.


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## A3k (11/6/13)

Hi guys,
i've been looking at making a dubbel for ages now.

I've read a lot of statements that say the belgians use only base malt plus dark candy sugar. BLAM says this for Westveteren, but shows the others using specialty grains (eg Wesmalle using Caramel and Dark Malt).

So i've taken the recipe out of Brewing Classic Styles, then reduced the specialies, and upped the Candi Syrup to match the bottle i have.


Volume: 22.64 l
Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
Estimated Color: 31.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Ingredients:

4.80 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 74.7 %
0.45 kg Munich (Dingemans) (10.8 EBC) Grain 7.1 %
0.18 kg Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (37.4 EBC) Grain 2.8 %
0.18 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) Grain 2.8 %
0.11 kg Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 1.8 %
0.70 kg Candi Sugar, Dark (157.6 EBC) Sugar 10.9 %
28.66 g Motueka [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 22.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Wyeast Labs #3787
I do like the idea of simplifying it and just using base malt and syrup, but i haven't seen many recipies doing this?

If i'm going to follow BCS, should I just go by the recipe, or keep with my changes of upping the Candy Syrup?

The only real changes i've made from the BCS recipe is the following:
Increased Candi Sugar from 340g to 700g
decreased the Aromatic and Caramunich Malts from 227g to 180g
decreased the Special B from 227g to 110g
[EDIT} And I removed the Cane Sugar

Thanks,
Alan


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## A3k (12/6/13)

Hi guys,
Any experienced Dubbel brewers out there able to help with my post above?

Cheers


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## manticle (12/6/13)

A3k said:


> I've read a lot of statements that say the belgians use only base malt plus dark candy sugar. BLAM says this for Westveteren, but shows the others using specialty grains (eg Wesmalle using Caramel and Dark Malt).


That is a blanket statement that is not always true. People read something about one famous Belgian and assume it's true for all.

It is true that a lot use sugar. It is true that a lot are base plus sugar or base, a hint of spec plus sugar but there are also tasty Belgians (like Tripel karmeleit for example) that have much more complicated grists.

It is true that almost all rely on yeast character rather than spice but some might still be mildly spiced (Rochefort 10 for example although the hint of spice is historically a preservative)

It is true that many are low bittered and low hopped but there are some (Westmalle tripel for example) that are relatively highly bittered and quite hoppy.

What is alos true is that while Belgian beers have associated techniques and history, they are much less rule or style driven than other parts of the world. The important thing is to get the flavours that you want, into a beer that tastes good, well balanced and relatively sessionable (eg dry finish belying the flavour pack that's delivered).

My current dubbel recipe still tries to remain simple but does incorporate a touch of spec B as well as Belgan pils base and d2 syrup. I think it works well - better than my attempts with just base + sugar. i also step mash which I think helps.

Anyway- upshot is that your recipe looks OK. Yeast management and conditioning are just as important as grist in my experience. Start cool, let temp raise slowly to the higher end, cold condition for a while, allow the beer to get some age.

If I were to simplify your recipe, i'd probably drop out the caramunich as you will get plenty of raisin from the spec B and commercial syrup if you use it (much better than home made). I'd also use a noble rather than a new world. As I said though - your beer, your rules and you can always tweak for next time. A lot of people have brewed BCS styles with success and you need a starting point in order to know what to change, if anything.


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## A3k (12/6/13)

Thanks Manticle. That helps a lot.

the syrup i've used is Dark Candi Syrup from Gryphon Brewing. this stuff. http://gryphonbrewing.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=366

I'll likely ditch the Caramunich as you suggest.

Thanks again mate


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## manticle (12/6/13)

I just added a touch of that into my Belgian dark strong. I think it's the same as the stuff I've used before - just packaged differently. I add a portion at a time once fermentation has finished as I've read too big a sugar addition at the start can make yeast lazy and I've experienced hot alcohol adding too much at once at the end. I go 200 mL at a time into 20 L, give it a couple of days to ferment out, then add the next dose. I keep the bottle in the fridge but you could boil up the syrup if you're paranoid (such a high sugar concentration doesn't welcome bacterial contamination)


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## A3k (12/6/13)

hehe you answered the question i forgot to ask...
I was going to ask if i should add the sugar to the fermenter for that reason, (that's how i've done my Tripels). On top the reasons you mentions, is also seems like a bit of a waste a when you include a bit of loss in the kettle). All the reading i did had the syrup into the kettle, but i couldn't see any reason for this.

My syrup arived without a label, so doesn't look the same either.

cheers again


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## carniebrew (24/8/13)

Brewing Classic Styles' page for Belgian Dubbel says "when fermentation is finished, carbonate the beer to approx 3 to 4 volumes and allow to lager for 1 month at 7 - 10C".

That's some serious carbonation, and I notice my bulk priming calculator suggests 1.9-2.4 vols for a Belgian Dubbel. But what I'm more interested in is the lagering....does the above suggest I need to allow a couple of weeks for the beer to carbonate at ale temps (e.g. ~ 17C up), and then lager it? I assume it doesn't mean to bottle it with say 3 vols worth of priming solution and lager straight away...otherwise I assume it won't carbonate at all, no?


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## manticle (24/8/13)

I carb to about 2.3 -2.5 which is high for me.
Lager in bulk first then prime to carbonate or bottle, prime, carb then lager.


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## carniebrew (24/8/13)

Thanks manticle. I think I'd prefer to free up the fermenter so I'll bulk prime, bottle, allow it to carb then lager it. Do you think the 7-10C temp is important for the lagering? Or could I get away with stashing the lot in my garage fridge which is sitting at about 4C?


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## manticle (24/8/13)

If it's had enough time in the fermenter to clean up acetaldehyde etc then I'd just put them in the fridge.


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## carniebrew (24/8/13)

It's had two weeks, started it at 18C, rose it to 21 over the first week, been at 21 since.


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## manticle (24/8/13)

Go on flavour not time. If it has hit fg and doesn't seem taste like apples, pumpkin or paint, you should be good to go.


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