# Black Ipa's



## tazman1967 (1/6/10)

These seem to be all the go in the States atm, so I thought Id start a thread and have a crack at one...
I have tasted Ross's Obama IPA, loved it :beerbang: Great beer Ross.
I have the following recipe that Im playing around with... Advice and recipes would be great.

OG: 1060- 1074
FG: 1014 - 1020
IBU: 60-70
Colour- BLACK

BB Pale Malt
Carafa Special II
Munich II

Citra/ Chinook 60 Min
Simcoe 45min
Centennial 30min
Cascade 15 min
Centennial Dry Hop

2tsp Gypsum Mash
1tsp salt boil
Irish Moss

Wyeast 1272 American Ale II

Cheers

Looking for nice Malts and Citrusy Hop flavours


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## MHB (1/6/10)

Weren't Pale Ales called that to distinguish it from the OLD beer that came before the more modern Pale beer?

Sorry some things I just don't get like calling it a Radler and getting people to pay $6 for a shandy, or in this case Dark Pale Beer, Oh well it takes Toohey's longer to make New than it does Old mutter mutter grumble groan.

M


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## Fatgodzilla (1/6/10)

MHB said:


> Weren't Pale Ales called that to distinguish it from the OLD beer that came before the more modern Pale beer?
> 
> Sorry some things I just don't get like calling it a Radler and getting people to pay $6 for a shandy, or in this case Dark Pale Beer, Oh well it takes Toohey's longer to make New than it does Old mutter mutter grumble groan.
> 
> M




Mark, you old fuddy duddy ! Read the guidelines, dark is accepted as a pale, probably is the new pale !

(Us old blokes will never learn :icon_cheers: )

Go for it Taz, no mention of imperial contents but the grain will be 90%+ base, the carafa II for colour, MunichII for a bit of malt complexity. The hop combo will be great. Send both Mark and me a bottle for our consideration.


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## katzke (2/6/10)

Put the carafa in at the end of the mash. It can be ground fine. We just finished off one and when we brewed it we added the carafa at the end of the mash and keep adding till we got the color we wanted. End of the mash was when we started to raise the temperature for mash out with BIAB.

We had a chewy grain bill I will not confuse you with, as I am sure many of the grains you would need to substitute. It came in at 1.070 and finished at 1.014 using US-05. Lots more hops then you are using as Americans like there IPAs hoppy.

I think the official name that is being pushed is Cascadian Dark Ale. Being down there I think I would call it Tasmanian Devil Ale or something appropriate to your region. Beer is supposed to be fun so I do not get caught up in the IPSa can not be dark by definition argument. Besides brewing a nice midnight black IPA that does not taste dark is a neat trick.


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## Fourstar (2/6/10)

MHB said:


> Weren't Pale Ales called that to distinguish it from the OLD beer that came before the more modern Pale beer?
> 
> Sorry some things I just don't get like calling it a Radler and getting people to pay $6 for a shandy, or in this case Dark Pale Beer, Oh well it takes Toohey's longer to make New than it does Old mutter mutter grumble groan.
> 
> M




There is a reason why allot of people in the beer scene in the states are now calling them IBAs (India Brown Ales.)

Which is wht they should be if you are trying to keep the roast/choc characters subtle or non existant. If you are looking for a beer as dark as a stout, it starts becoming like an American Stout. Even with using just carafa.


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## BrenosBrews (2/6/10)

The Brewers Association 2010 style guidelines has it named as American-Style India Black Ale.

http://www.brewersassociation.org/attachme..._Style_2010.pdf Page 12


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## katzke (2/6/10)

Fourstar said:


> Which is wht they should be if you are trying to keep the roast/choc characters subtle or non existant. If you are looking for a beer as dark as a stout, it starts becoming like an American Stout. Even with using just carafa.



Have to disagree with you on that one. The wife can not stand dark beer and has found that the black IPAs are to her liking. The key is to get the color with out the flavor. Her beer did just that. Black as midnight and no dark grain taste. Some refer to the technique as a parlor trick and think that if a beer is dark it should taste dark. A properly brewed black IPA does not taste dark.


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## bum (2/6/10)

katzke said:


> Have to disagree with you on that one...[snip]...The key is to get the color with out the flavor.


 
Isn't that what he's saying? That's how I read it anyway.


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## Fourstar (2/6/10)

katzke said:


> Black as midnight and no dark grain taste. Some refer to the technique as a parlor trick and think that if a beer is dark it should taste dark. A properly brewed black IPA does not taste dark.



Thats basically what i said, it should not taste dark but should be dark, although i find it hard to believe you can get that colour (black) using roasted malts without imparting the flavour. I havnt had an american BIPA and the locally made one i had wasnt a midnight black IPA but deep depp brown borderline black. 

Yours being midnight black (as black as black can be, unless exaggeration) I would assume it would have *some *roast qualities to it, purely for how dark it is.

Care to enlighten me how you managed to get 35-40SRM of colour into a beer by using roasted malts without the use of sinamar?! if you are using sinamar you might as well be using food colouring as its basically tasteless (and cheating). As you said a parlour trick but it really should be achieved by cheating eith extracts that are pretty much tasteless.

All the things ive read about black IPAs is generally getting it there to the deep brown/borderline black appearance like the colour of guinness which i consider to be borderline black as its got some transparency with ruby hues. 

Anyway, the one i brewed myself from the research ive done i used enough carafa to get it just to 26 SRM with no success. It tasted quite chocolatey and slightly roasty, only a neuance but still a kickass beer that was kina like a mild american stout or US mildly robust porter with all those chocolate notes going on.

The only other ideas i have is using some really dark crystal in small %'s to get some base colour up there and then 2-3% carafa (if possible) to push black.

Im going to do some detective work on it myself by making up a soluton of x weight of grain steeped in water until i can thin it out to just borderline 'black' and use that as my gague and scale up the ratio from there. I guess the only other option is cold steeping to get the colour but minimal roast, again this is still going that extra maile and outside of traditional brewing methods.

Hmmm abit of hard work.

Oh, here is the recipe i used with a pic of the results. recipe inspired by using a schwarzbier as the base of the black IPA recipe. 
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=580585


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## Fourstar (2/6/10)

bum said:


> Isn't that what he's saying? That's how I read it anyway.



I think he disagrees with it having to be a 'brown IPA' if its not going to have the roast and choc flavours going on. Whcih by the way i still stand by unless you go down a cheats method with sinamar/colouring or complety stuff your boil pH and increase the maillard rection.  

Although alot of traditional brewing uses other grain adjuncts so i guess using black sticky rice could also be used to increase colour...


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## bum (2/6/10)

Ah, my apologies to you, katzke, if that is the case.

As for your last point - surely sticking purely to traditional methods is less important when making non-traditional styles? Isn't that one way forward?


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## bkmad (2/6/10)

Pffft, it all looks too easy. Golden Imperial Stout, now thats what I'd like to see :icon_cheers: 
http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article.php?id=280
(note the date of the article)

A pale beer with roasty flavour. I reckon that would mess with my head a little.


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## Fourstar (2/6/10)

bum said:


> As for your last point - surely sticking purely to traditional methods is less important when making non-traditional styles? Isn't that one way forward?



Not when its not all that innovative. Anyone can dump some colouring into a beer and call it a black IPA, thats where i draw the line. Unfortunatly for me sinamar is doing just that, its an extracted food colouring. 

Using an adjunct like black rice is a concept i would agree with or cold steeping dark malts as another option (although i'd prefer them mashed) I think i'd just prefer to see the boundaries pushed with *traditonal ingredients (grain)/process first. :icon_cheers: 

*yes i know sinamar is an ingredient made from carafa but its still an *extracted* colouring agent. i'd want the whole grain/adjunct used during the mash if possible.

Maybe im trying to produce the unproducable by setting these boundaries on myself, but i'd be prouder of what i have produced by doing it this way. Doing a litte more reading on reviews of BIPA's, all of them note cocoa, coffee, roast notes. None of them so far say they have encountered one thats a complete 'parlour trick'. 

Maybe im just misinterpereting it 'not tasting dark' as in n'ot tasting like a stout or porter'. Although those flavours I do associate with dark beers, a Black IPA _IS _a dark beer.

where's a handrail, i feel dizzy!


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## drsmurto (2/6/10)

Fourstar said:


> Not when its not all that innovative. Anyone can dump some colouring into a beer and call it a black IPA, thats where i draw the line. Unfortunatly for me sinamar is doing just that, its an extracted food colouring.
> 
> Using an adjunct like black rice is a concept i would agree with or cold steeping dark malts as another option (although i'd prefer them mashed) I think i'd just prefer to see the boundaries pushed with *traditonal ingredients (grain)/process first. :icon_cheers:
> 
> ...



You add chemicals to your mashtun and kettle on a regular basis Fourstar

Last time i checked you don't find them lying on the ground in pure form, someone has gone to the effort of extracting them and purifying them for you. 

So you are guilty of using extracts in your beer.  

And yes, its 3pm here, I'm bored, out of coffee and my inner pedant is trawling the interweb. I'll throw myself out! :lol:


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## Fourstar (2/6/10)

DrSmurto said:


> You add chemicals to your mashtun and kettle on a regular basis Fourstar
> Last time i checked you don't find them lying on the ground in pure form, someone has gone to the effort of extracting them and purifying them for you.
> So you are guilty of using extracts in your beer.
> And yes, its 3pm here, I'm bored, out of coffee and my inner pedant is trawling the interweb. I'll throw myself out! :lol:




For Sale:
1 Brewery, pickup only. Used often by a cheating brewer. 


Although water modification is quite traditional (brewers burtonising their water) atleast with modern brewing poractices anyway.


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## Ross (2/6/10)

I'm reliably informed that there are commercially available German Schwarzbiers that use Sinnamar for colouring, I really don't see it as "cheating"

Though I do understand the sentiment...

Cheers Ross


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## beersom (2/6/10)

Ross said:


> I'm reliably informed that there are commercially available German Schwarzbiers that use Sinnamar for colouring, I really don't see it as "cheating"
> 
> Though I do understand the sentiment...
> 
> Cheers Ross


Yup, there is more than a few Schwarzbiers made with sinamar.... not to mention that the practise is not unknown in Belgium or France.
Not all of them use pre-bought Sinamar either... a thick cold steep and a boil can be used to make something very similar.
In the right beer sinamar ain't cheatin its just another technique in the brewers tool box.
There is also techniques with regard to late mash/lauter additions of roast/carafa malts that are good for colour extraction whilst minimising flavour.


Edit - Like Ross, I do understand the sentiment of feeling this way about sinamar. I formerly was a sinamar knocker until I was "enlightened" by a few brewers and a few beers


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## katzke (3/6/10)

I think some missed that our brew was done with Carafa 2 as a late mash addition BIAB style at mash out. I wanted to use Carafa special or Debittered Black but could not find it locally and no place close enough to mail order in time for the brew.

The way it was used was to roll small amounts of the grain with a rolling pin to loosen as many of the husks as possible and blow them off outside using a lipped baking pan and blowing at the same time as tossing them up in the air. Then I put small amounts in the blender and ground the grain to the fine side. This was added in small amounts until the wort turned the color we were looking for. Yes it took quite a while to do this.

We did a test of cold steeping and hot steeping to see what she liked. 
The test grain was not de-husked. To my surprise she liked the hot steeped liquid better. The cold steep set in the fridge for a long time and may have started to sour.

There are no agreed upon standards for this new Black IPA. About the only thing that has some agreement is that you can not have a black plae ale so recommended names do not include pale. The front runner seems to be Cascadian Dark Ale. The odd part of this is the style is not orrigianl to the NW and has its roots in Vermont. The commercial product that I have sampled seems to be just a black IPA. I have heard of some that have more of a roasted character. My impression is that any character from the dark grain used to blacken a traditional American IPA is lost by the intense hop bitterness and citrus flavor. I can not explain a dark Lager as I have not sampled any yet. A black IPA is not a hopped mild Porter. 

The Black IPA we are trying to create is one that tasted blind, blind as in not seeing, would be indistinguishable from any other well crafted IPA. The grain bill for an American IPA can be so varied as to allow anything from a clean Pale Ale base to a complex grain bill with caramel malts. This beer is based on our 3rd place beer from last years club competition. It did not do well this year in part because it did not have enough hop finish. The other part is I think the brain sees a black beer and thinks Stout or Porter and causes the tong to taste what is not there. Similar to the thought that dry hopping adds to the perceived bitterness of a beer. You smell hops so it must be bitter.

All of this is based on American IPAs. These beers are all massively hopped. Some drinkers I know do not consider it a good IPA unless the first taste makes you pucker. A moderate IPA would be harder to blacken with out some of the roast character coming through.


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## Fourstar (3/6/10)

Ross said:


> I'm reliably informed that there are commercially available German Schwarzbiers that use Sinnamar for colouring, I really don't see it as "cheating"
> Though I do understand the sentiment...
> Cheers Ross



They also use hop extracts/ISOhop too these days! :icon_cheers: I just hope its not kostritzer. <_< 

The only reason i see it as cheating for the BIPA is its supposed to be a 'parlor trick' as katzke put it. Schwarzbiers are supposed to be black(or close to) and very mildy roasty/drying.



katzke said:


> I think some missed that our brew was done with Carafa 2 as a late mash addition BIAB style at mash out. I wanted to use Carafa special or Debittered Black but could not find it locally and no place close enough to mail order in time for the brew.



h34r: Sorry bud, i did miss that part. Sounds like you went to some lengths to get it right! Just what i like and have been ranting about. :icon_cheers: 

I was thinking of doing the mashout addition of some carafa special dust until it got to my expected colour too. I'd say it wouldnt take much to get it there either, especially if its ground really fine.


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## MHB (16/6/10)

Just reading the latest BYO over dinner, looks like it's going to be called:-

"American Style India Black Ale"
Colour 50+ EBC
O.G. 1.056-1.075
F.G. 1.012-1.018
Bitterness 50-70 IBU
ABV 6-7.5%

At least there is a hint of sanity Black Pale Ale forsooth. Mind you the recipe for the "Pitch Black (dare I say) IPA" looks very tasty.

MHB


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## haysie (16/6/10)

Fourstar said:


> For Sale:
> 1 Brewery, pickup only. Used often by a cheating brewer.
> 
> 
> Although water modification is quite traditional (brewers burtonising their water) atleast with modern brewing poractices anyway.




Before or after rev osmosis. Nothing wrong with sinamar IMO, never used it but will one day. cheating? is a bit far fetched.


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## jimi (21/6/10)

At Young and Jacksons tomorrow the brewers at Otway Estate / Prickly Moses will be presenting their new "American Style India Black Ale"
affectionately called the panther (or something like that). Haven't been able to try it myself but would be interested in others thoughts. I just got one of their info emails and can't recall all the details, but it should interest anyone interested in the style in melb cbd.


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## vykuza (21/6/10)

I've been whacking away at a few BIPA, BAPA or CDAs, (depending on who you ask) recipes over the past few months after I had a few rather delicious Widmer Pitch Black IPAs in Oregon last January. 

This is the 2nd take (of four) on a recipe/clone and I think the best so far. I make them very bitter, nice and strong and with a grain bill that does leave a little bit of the dark malt flavour coming through. I find the use of heavy, resinous hops tends to work with what seems an overdose of dark grains for this style - the hops tend to push down the strong flavours from the roast malt, and vice versa. It's not a session beer, but I'll be blowed if it isn't _extremely_ tasty.

If there's a trick, then it's to mash pretty low. Mashing high tends to end up with a treacly, sweetish mess. My angle is that the style is all about being crisp and resinous, with the black malts adding more astringency for your tongue to get around. 


Widmer Pitch Black Clone #2
American IPA 


Type: All Grain
Date: 25/04/2010 
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: Nick 
Boil Size: 31.36 L Asst Brewer: Betty the Dog 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Birko 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
6.75 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 87.66 % 
0.40 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM) Grain 5.19 % 
0.25 kg Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 3.25 % 
0.20 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) Grain 2.60 % 
0.10 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (710.0 SRM) Grain 1.30 % 
13.00 gm Magnum [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 16.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 
13.00 gm Warrior [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 17.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 6.1 IBU 
20.00 gm Warrior [15.00 %] (20 min) Hops 16.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Magnum [14.00 %] (20 min) Hops 15.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Magnum [14.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
10.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops - 
10.00 gm Warrior [15.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.058 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.67 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 % 
Bitterness: 72.6 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 35.6 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 7.70 kg 
Sparge Water: 19.00 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
75 min Mash In Add 20.08 L of water at 68.9 C 63.0 C 



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time). 
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.4 
Pressure/Weight: 141.6 gm Carbonation Used: - 
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 15.6 C Age for: 28.0 days 
Storage Temperature: 11.1 C 

Notes


Created with BeerSmith


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## Fents (22/6/10)

making this today...its the 3rd one from the latest BYO.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L 
Boil Size: 25.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 54.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 69.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 91.67 % 
0.20 kg Black Barley (Stout) (985.0 EBC) Grain 3.33 % 
0.20 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 3.33 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 1.67 % 
20.00 gm Magnum [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 31.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (30 min) Hops 7.4 IBU 
10.00 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (30 min) Hops 11.3 IBU 
10.00 gm Chinook [12.40 %] (30 min) Hops 10.7 IBU 
15.00 gm Simcoe [12.20 %] (5 min) Hops 4.1 IBU 
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Cascade [7.80 %] (5 min) Hops 2.6 IBU 
40.00gm Dry Hop Mix, Chinook, Am, Simcoe 4 days
8 Pkgs US-05 Yeast-Ale


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## Maple (22/6/10)

Fents said:


> making this today...its the 3rd one from the latest BYO.
> 
> 
> 8 Pkgs US-05 Yeast-Ale


Really?, or did you get those limited release 3 gram packets?


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## katzke (22/6/10)

I am not an expert on BIPAs or CDAs but working on it. Both of the previous recipes look more like the hopped Porters that some people claim them to be then what I understand a black to be. My wife like a black to be no more then a dark looking IPA. Maybe a hint of bitter from the grains but nothing like a porter.

I also question the low mash temp in the first recipe. That would dry the beer out and with the hops and dark grains I would think it would change the character of a hoppy IPA. Course you generally do not like the as bitter or hoppy as we get them on the West Coast of the USA. One reason why I do not like them.


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## brettprevans (22/6/10)

fourstar, i kind of agree but kind of disagree also. whats wrong with say cold steeping grain (like black patent etc) and adding post mash? why it is any differant to say adding strawberries or other fruit in secondary to get colour and/or flavour? or adding spcices in secondary, or french pressing hops?

its traditional in the sense that pople have been adding stuff to beer post fermentation for ages ie dry hopping. 

now im not saying thats its exactly similar and an see your point of view. esp considering a beer i tasted recently, that used a few differant menthods to acheive the desired taste, as oppossed to conventional/current methods being described. I cant really eloborate, as I was told about the process and ingrediants asfter begging and beggin and I think driving the poor guy to tears (the AHB member in question will no doubt know who he is  - god it was a GREAT beer).

I do suggest that doing an experiment to find out how much dark malt you need to get colour and no flavour is an idea. and then it can be changed/adapted etc to suit purposes. but then again, why just change the colour. a ipa which is black is of no interest to me. its like as you said adding food colouring. its a novetly. sure you want some characteristics of the black ale in the ipa to make a new style. just the same that a black lager isnt a lager with black colouring. it has notes of that lovely dark grain, possible hints or choc, roast etc etc, whilst been clean etc etc

my 2c


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## Fents (22/6/10)

Maple said:


> Really?, or did you get those limited release 3 gram packets?



No not really thats a muckup. just have a massive jar of 05 slurry to pitch.


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## katzke (22/6/10)

Fents said:


> No not really thats a muckup. just have a massive jar of 05 slurry to pitch.



US-05 is a beast. Not sure over pitching would get you much. Use a blow off tube or be prepared to clean up a mess.


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## mje1980 (22/6/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> fourstar, i kind of agree but kind of disagree also. whats wrong with say cold steeping grain (like black patent etc) and adding post mash? why it is any differant to say adding strawberries or other fruit in secondary to get colour and/or flavour? or adding spcices in secondary, or french pressing hops?
> 
> its traditional in the sense that pople have been adding stuff to beer post fermentation for ages ie dry hopping.
> 
> ...




CM2, i add all my dark grains late in the mash, regardless of the style. I always get the dark malt flavour, without the harshness. Just my .02c. It works unreal. Adding even a small amount late ( 100g choc ) will still add some flavour IMHO.


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## Fatgodzilla (22/6/10)

haven't got much to add, but since we are bagging Fourstar, I thought I'd get a kick in too ! nahnah nahnahnaha ! :icon_cheers: 

Now, the latest BYO has a really wooooossie name "Black IPAs" where as they were called cascadian dark ales, which I liked better. Anyway, I'm drinking my first effort now, but really should emphasis that the multiple hops are important. Having only Chinook and Cascade isn't doing the trick for me and not enough maltiness to balance the hops. The hop bite is lovely, just harsh (unbalanced) in my effort. that said, thumbs up for this style in theory for me. And plus one for cold steeping and late adding of black malt - this one isn't a stout and we are not looking for astringency. Flavour.


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## pbrosnan (22/6/10)

Indeed the article in BYO mentions that these types of beers avoid the use of the normal dark malts in the mash so as to avoid the burnt flavours. The recipes attached to the article use the darker cara malts for colour. It does mention cold steeping black malt for colour though. I've brewed the following a couple of times, I hadn't heard of this style but on reflection it probably is a black IPA (I've called it a US Brown):

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
82.2 6.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 7
4.1 0.30 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma Germany 1.034 470
6.8 0.50 kg. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 0
3.4 0.25 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 93
3.4 0.25 kg. Weyermann Carapils (Carafoam) Germany 1.037 3


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Super Alpha Pellet 11.00 19.1 70 min.
30.00 g. Chinook Pellet 13.00 39.3 45 min.
10.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.25 12.3 45 min.
15.00 g. Chinook Pellet 13.00 11.2 30 min.
10.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.25 7.0 30 min.
30.00 g. Chinook Pellet 13.00 11.7 15 min.
15.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.25 5.5 15 min.
20.00 g. Chinook Pellet 13.00 4.9 5 min.
30.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 Dry Hop
20.00 g. Chinook Pellet 13.00 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes


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## katzke (22/6/10)

mje1980 said:


> CM2, i add all my dark grains late in the mash, regardless of the style. I always get the dark malt flavour, without the harshness. Just my .02c. It works unreal. Adding even a small amount late ( 100g choc ) will still add some flavour IMHO.



The key is what dark malt are you using? The only good malts I have read about are Carafa and preferably Carafa Special that has been dehusked or debittered black. The debittered black is a black barley that has been dehusked also. The husk adds lots of the burnt flavor to beer. In the styles it is desired in it is a good thing. In a Black IPA or what ever you want to call it, it is a bad thing.

Late additions of the dark malt is at mash out or sparging. I BIAB so add it at mash out or when I am bringing the mash to 170F. I add it in increments as I have not got an exact amount to add to get the color yet.

The last home brew the Wife sampled that was a black was to dark tasting for her. I am sure the brewer added the dark grains in with the mash or used traditional dark grains.

So if you are trying for the color with any Porter malts or Stout malts you are missing it.


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## mje1980 (22/6/10)

I've used most of the dark malts like this, and can taste all of them. I really like the "softened" flavour, which is basically the yummy roastiness without the edge. I've used carafa iii that way, choc, pale choc, and black. I even do it with brown and amber. Works for me. 

I have soft water, so that may explain something.


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## white.grant (22/6/10)

mje1980 said:


> I've used most of the dark malts like this, and can taste all of them. I really like the "softened" flavour, which is basically the yummy roastiness without the edge. I've used carafa iii that way, choc, pale choc, and black. I even do it with brown and amber. Works for me.
> 
> I have soft water, so that may explain something.



Interesting Mark,

I've made a few dark milds and a smoked porter in recent weeks and have found - particularly on the dark mild using plain choc malt for the full mash, that I'm getting a really nice, non harsh softened flavour as you describe. 

Perhaps the water is contributing, though I was putting it down to have the recipe balanced. I'm getting a lovely dark colour, with relatively small proportions of choc.

Either way I'm loving the beer. 

cheer

grant


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## Fatgodzilla (22/6/10)

Grantw said:


> Interesting Mark,
> 
> I've made a few dark milds and a smoked porter in recent weeks and have found - particularly on the dark mild using plain choc malt for the full mash, that I'm getting a really nice, non harsh softened flavour as you describe.
> 
> ...




Interesting - what choc malt you on ? Is it the same as the last Sydney/Wollongong bulk buy? Saying that as (surprise, surprise I got a kg left) I am not getting as much colour from that JW choc as I expected (flavour wise fine) so I've use it equally with Carafa Special II or III (another case of overkill buying .. damn you Ross !!!!) to get great results. Since someone told me about cold sparging (and it may have been Mark at the last Big Brew Day) I find that a cold sparge gives the same colours without the "burnt" flavour. I'm using it for colour (ie not a stout) so getting exactly what the Black IPA specs are aiming for. Just wish I could get the hopping right!





> Katzke : The only good malts I have read about are Carafa and preferably Carafa Special



clearly we will get different base malt in Aus to US - at least I guess weyermanns offers uniformity. However since the World Cup started we are not talking to Germany. However, to the best of my minimal knowledge, is Weyermann's the only dehusked dark malt on the market?


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## katzke (23/6/10)

Fatgodzilla said:


> clearly we will get different base malt in Aus to US - at least I guess weyermanns offers uniformity. However since the World Cup started we are not talking to Germany. However, to the best of my minimal knowledge, is Weyermann's the only dehusked dark malt on the market?



I have not used the de-bittered black and have no idea who all makes it. I have to special order even the Carafa Special.

World Cup, whats that some beer drinking competition? You letting the Germans get the best of you at beer drinking?


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## white.grant (23/6/10)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Interesting - what choc malt you on ? Is it the same as the last Sydney/Wollongong bulk buy? Saying that as (surprise, surprise I got a kg left) I am not getting as much colour from that JW choc as I expected (flavour wise fine) so I've use it equally with Carafa Special II or III (another case of overkill buying .. damn you Ross !!!!) to get great results. Since someone told me about cold sparging (and it may have been Mark at the last Big Brew Day) I find that a cold sparge gives the same colours without the "burnt" flavour. I'm using it for colour (ie not a stout) so getting exactly what the Black IPA specs are aiming for. Just wish I could get the hopping right!



Yes it's that stuff from the bulk buy, it's in a plain bag and don't remember what it was. No trouble with colour extraction.

What exactly do you mean by cold sparging?

cheers

grant


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## Fatgodzilla (23/6/10)

Grantw said:


> Yes it's that stuff from the bulk buy, it's in a plain bag and don't remember what it was. No trouble with colour extraction.
> 
> What exactly do you mean by cold sparging?
> 
> ...




JW choc malt. I had a Weyermanns Choc Malt that I reckon was much darker. 

Cold Sparging in that it is not in my mash tun. Meaning superfine crush, soak in room temp water, add liquid to boiler. I don't know if the term is correct, but that's never bothered me much. I'm not sure exactly what this method extracts from the grain, but the result suits, so I'll keep doing it until bored.




> World Cup, whats that some beer drinking competition? You letting the Germans get the best of you at beer drinking?



Never. We are undefeated since 1942.


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## GTS350 (23/6/10)

Last time I was in USA I found Widmers Pitch Black IPA on tap - truly amazing beer! :icon_drool2: 

http://www.widmer.com/beer_w_series.aspx

" Pitch Black IPA is a Pacific Northwest twisted tribute to an IPA style of beer. It is almost a traditional IPA but it is instead brewed to the emerging style of Cascadian Dark. We add a modest amount of a *specially made debittered black malt to give this IPA a very dark color but without the characteristic dark malt flavors*. Pitch Black IPA is hopped generously in the brewhouse and then again later during the dry hopping process. Hopheads of the world will certainly enjoy this dark version of IPA, as will beer drinkers looking for something new and experimental to fill their pint glass. "


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## jimi (23/6/10)

The Otway Estate IBA drop is described by the lads as;
"Like an India Pale Ale, Otway Panther IBA is a full bodied beer that's rich in hop bitterness and American hop aroma. Caramelised black malt imparts a subtle burnt flavour and the black colour to this rare beer."

They seem comfortable with leaving a bit of the burnt in. I imagine in the early days of this style there's few style police! Did anyone try it? I'm assuming its the first 'local' brew of this kind.
I still haven't git to try it :angry:


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## jimi (23/6/10)

katzke said:


> The key is what dark malt are you using? The only good malts I have read about are Carafa and preferably Carafa Special that has been dehusked or debittered black. The debittered black is a black barley that has been dehusked also. The husk adds lots of the burnt flavor to beer. In the styles it is desired in it is a good thing. In a Black IPA or what ever you want to call it, it is a bad thing.
> 
> Late additions of the dark malt is at mash out or sparging. I BIAB so add it at mash out or when I am bringing the mash to 170F. I add it in increments as I have not got an exact amount to add to get the color yet.
> 
> ...



Any husk fearing brewers tried roast wheat instead of the carafa spec?


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## MHB (24/6/10)

Just a random thought, bare with me a minute, but if you have ever made Billy Tea the old way, tea and sugar into cold water the over the camp fire.

The strange thing is that you can get a really dark rich tea without the tannin harshness you would give without the sugar in there the sugar blocks a lot of flavours from coming into solution.

Just wondering if a similar process would work with dark grains, either steeping in cold wort (if youre a bit of a purist like me) or just in a sugary solution, trying to extract the colour without the flavours, one to have a play with tomorrow, opps make that later today.

MHB

Roast Wheas is great!
M


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## Barley Belly (24/6/10)

MHB said:


> Just a random thought, bare with me a minute, but if you have ever made Billy Tea the old way, tea and sugar into cold water the over the camp fire.
> 
> The strange thing is that you can get a really dark rich tea without the tannin harshness you would give without the sugar in there the sugar blocks a lot of flavours from coming into solution.
> 
> ...



I think a few guys have tested this already Mark



katzke said:


> Put the carafa in at the end of the mash. It can be ground fine. We just finished off one and when we brewed it we added the carafa at the end of the mash and keep adding till we got the color we wanted. End of the mash was when we started to raise the temperature for mash out with BIAB.
> 
> We had a chewy grain bill I will not confuse you with, as I am sure many of the grains you would need to substitute. It came in at 1.070 and finished at 1.014 using US-05. Lots more hops then you are using as Americans like there IPAs hoppy.
> 
> I think the official name that is being pushed is Cascadian Dark Ale. Being down there I think I would call it Tasmanian Devil Ale or something appropriate to your region. Beer is supposed to be fun so I do not get caught up in the IPSa can not be dark by definition argument. Besides brewing a nice midnight black IPA that does not taste dark is a neat trick.



Sure does sound like a novel idea

Might have to work it into a beer of my own in the future


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## Fourstar (24/6/10)

jimi said:


> They seem comfortable with leaving a bit of the burnt in. I imagine in the early days of this style there's few style police! Did anyone try it? I'm assuming its the first 'local' brew of this kind.
> I still haven't git to try it :angry:



Murrays had one and it was delicious! :icon_chickcheers:


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## jimi (28/6/10)

jimi said:


> At Young and Jacksons tomorrow the brewers at Otway Estate / Prickly Moses will be presenting their new "American Style India Black Ale"
> affectionately called the panther (or something like that). Haven't been able to try it myself but would be interested in others thoughts. I just got one of their info emails and can't recall all the details, but it should interest anyone interested in the style in melb cbd.




Got my dates wrong folks, if you want to try the Prickly Moses IBA it's at Young and Jacksons tomorrow (Tues 29). Went out to the brewery today to see if they had any left but it was all locked and loaded for Y&J. Happily making do with their strong ale instead :icon_drool2:


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## Fourstar (29/6/10)

jimi said:


> Got my dates wrong folks, if you want to try the Prickly Moses IBA it's at Young and Jacksons tomorrow (Tues 29). Went out to the brewery today to see if they had any left but it was all locked and loaded for Y&J. Happily making do with their strong ale instead :icon_drool2:




Interesting. I misht swing past on my way home from work!


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## brettprevans (2/7/10)

Good article in this months zymurgy on cascadian dark ales (the new name as opposed to black ipa). 
The article confirms it's not just an ipa with colour that it's about using dark malts to compliment ultra hoppy orange/tangarine/mint/rosemary flavours from the northwest pacific variety. 

They talk about using carafa, choc, dark crystal, and as already mentioned commercial breweries using sinamar


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## katzke (2/7/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> Good article in this months zymurgy on cascadian dark ales (the new name as opposed to black ipa).
> The article confirms it's not just an ipa with colour that it's about using dark malts to compliment ultra hoppy orange/tangarine/mint/rosemary flavours from the northwest pacific variety.
> 
> They talk about using carafa, choc, dark crystal, and as already mentioned commercial breweries using sinamar



A group has formed that is pushing the name as well as trying to define the style. They need brewers to enter the beer in the specialty category under a common name before BJCP will consider giving it a category of its own. Part of the process is also defining what the style description should be.

Not all agree with their name or description of the style.


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## Fents (7/7/10)

drinking my attempt now. wow, massive beer. really fucks with your brain you think your going to get a big hit of roast/coffee then the hops just slap you in the face. if you close your eyes you think its a really nice AIPA. Tiny hint of a bit of licquorice in mine which works.

mine ended up 66 ibu's @ 6.2%. highly recommended experince making/drinking one of these black ipa's....bugga cascadian or india brown, black ipa's sounds wicked i reckon.


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## rude (8/7/10)

Never. We are undefeated since 1942.

Go you Tobruk Rats thank you uncle Bill


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## jbowers (8/7/10)

I hear kooinda are putting one out real soon


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## katzke (8/7/10)

Fents said:


> drinking my attempt now. wow, massive beer. really fucks with your brain you think your going to get a big hit of roast/coffee then the hops just slap you in the face. if you close your eyes you think its a really nice AIPA. Tiny hint of a bit of licquorice in mine which works.
> 
> mine ended up 66 ibu's @ 6.2%. highly recommended experince making/drinking one of these black ipa's....bugga cascadian or india brown, black ipa's sounds wicked i reckon.




Sounds like you nailed the version my Wife likes. She does not go for dark beers like I do. The Black IPA givers her the satisfaction of making people think she drinks dark beers while still enjoying her hoppy IPA.

I can not get past the hops of either. I think there may be some other level of flavor in a black. Definitely not the traditional dark flavor some think it should have.

What color did you get? A good black or more on the brown side.


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## boybrewer (8/7/10)

I was just reading about the Black IPA'S last night . This article was in the BYO mag . They were going to call it Cascadian IPA , they felt that the non Northwestern brewers would be turned off by this style as it may have hinted to regional exclusivity. I am impressed with the colour and hopping additions that much this is going to be my next brew .If it turns out well I may put it into the Vicbrew Comp .


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## katzke (8/7/10)

beer belly said:


> I was just reading about the Black IPA'S last night . This article was in the BYO mag . They were going to call it Cascadian IPA , they felt that the non Northwestern brewers would be turned off by this style as it may have hinted to regional exclusivity. I am impressed with the colour and hopping additions that much this is going to be my next brew .If it turns out well I may put it into the Vicbrew Comp .




Odd thing is the style was not even started here. As I understand it was first brewed commercially in Vermont, and long ago. The West Coast is a late comer to the style. Cascadian refers to the NW hop verities used by most brewers for the beer. Funny that the American version of the IPA was not called Cascadian or West Coast Pale Ale.

I actually prefer Black IPA as it is a better description. The ones that we have sampled are just black American IPAs.


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## argon (12/8/10)

Gonna do one of these to get rid of a couple of partial bags of hops... i think the grain bill look s a tad convoluted... thinking about simplifying it a touch. Probably add the Carafa only at mash out.

I've hedged my bets and called it a Black IPA under the style American Style India Black Ale


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Black IPA
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Style India Black Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 38.00 L 
Boil Size: 45.39 L
Estimated OG: 1.067 SG
Estimated Color: 53.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 57.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
9.00 kg Ale Malt (Barrett Burston) (6.0 EBC) Grain 71.44 % 
2.20 kg Munich II Malt (Weyermann) (22.5 EBC) Grain 17.46 % 
0.35 kg Carafa Special T3 Malt (Weyermann) (1400Grain 2.78 % 
0.35 kg Aromatic Malt - (Dingemans) (37.0 EBC) Grain 2.77 % 
0.35 kg Carapils Malt (Weyermann) (4.0 EBC) Grain 2.77 % 
0.35 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 2.77 % 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 5.5 IBU 
40.00 gm Centennial [9.90 %] (60 min) Hops 21.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 4.2 IBU 
30.00 gm Centennial [9.90 %] (30 min) Hops 12.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 2.7 IBU 
25.00 gm Centennial [9.90 %] (15 min) Hops 6.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.1 IBU 
25.00 gm Centennial [9.90 %] (5 min) Hops 2.7 IBU 
30.00 gm Centennial [9.90 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 
10.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 
1.65 tsp Salt (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
8.26 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
16.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 12.60 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 37.80 L of water at 72.7 C 66.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 5 min 75.6 C 


Notes:
------
All hop additions minus 15 mins for NC Cube adjustments
5 min Hop additions french pressed into fermenter prior to pitching

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## argon (7/12/10)

Filtered and kegged this last night... firstly... i need to do more IPAs :icon_drool2: 

I had some left over beer after kegging and had a few sneaky samples. The late hop flavour and aroma was to die for. No roastiness "black" flavours at all. Could have closed my eyes and not known it was a dark beer.

It's not black... more like very dark brown and is not opaque when held up to the light. The hop schedule i ended up doing is slightly different to the above as i added a 10min, 5 mins and 0 min addition and doubled the dry hops.

Can 't wait for it to carb up... this weekend might have a few hangovers in store for me as it started at 1074 and finished at 1015 for 7.7%ABV... but it still tastes nicely balanced at 66IBU.


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## mwd (7/12/10)

Sounds absolutely delicious love Ipa after getting hooked on Punk IPA.
You haven't had this on the go in fermenters since mid August have you ?( last post) B) 

edit: emoticon


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## argon (7/12/10)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Sounds absolutely delicious love Ipa after getting hooked on Punk IPA.
> You haven't had this on the go in fermenters since mid August have you ?( last post) B)
> 
> edit: emoticon




It certainly smells and tastes delicious in it's early days... i think i ended up doing this in late October no chilled and then a little over 2 weeks in primary. Had to get some Oktoberfest lagers out of the way first.

Once i buy a few pounds of hops from the states i'll be planning the next IPA... i've had a few good commercial ones lately i wouldn't mind replicating.


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## BrenosBrews (7/12/10)

For the record the Brewers Association have named it American-style India black ale.

American-style India black ale has medium high to high hop bitterness, flavor and aroma with medium-high alcohol content,
balanced with a medium body. The style is further characterized by a moderate degree of caramel malt character and medium to
strong dark roasted malt flavor and aroma. High astringency and high degree of burnt roast malt character should be absent. Fruity,
floral and herbal character from hops of all origins may contribute to aroma and flavor.
Original Gravity (Plato) 1.056-1.075 (14-18.2 Plato) ● Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (Plato) 1.012-1.018 (3-4.5 Plato) ●
Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 5-6% (6 -7.5%) ● Bitterness (IBU) 50-70 ● Color SRM (EBC) 25+ (50+ EBC)


Reference; http://www.brewersassociation.org/attachme..._Style_2010.pdf


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## DJR (17/7/12)

Dragging up an old thread.... 

Was having a look at beer styles to try out and this looks interesting. Anyway what do ppl think of this recipe beow? Might be a bit much to do a 10min one? Does it need flameout hops or should i smash it through the hoprocket with NZ cascade? From the read of it a single 10 min addition should do it? 

I am not sure about cold steeping the carafa special either, will probably just add it to the mash


Recipe: 10min Black IPA
Brewer: DJR
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Black IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 22.0 l
Post Boil Volume: 17.0 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 17.0 l 
Bottling Volume: 15.5 l
Estimated OG: 1.068 SG
Estimated Color: 49.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 57.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
8.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 - 
3.65 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 76.0 % 
0.50 kg Munich (Best) (15.0 EBC)  Grain 3 10.4 % 
0.40 kg Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) Grain 4 8.3 % 
0.25 kg Carafa Special III (Wey) - coldsteep (92 Grain 5 5.2 % 
3.00 g Brewbrite (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 6 - 
56.0 g Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 22.4 IBUs 
56.0 g Summit [14.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 34.9 IBUs 
1.0 pkg American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [124 Yeast 9 - 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 4.80 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash In Add 14.4 l of water at 72.3 C 66.7 C 60 min 
Mash OUt Add 4.8 l of water at 94.3 C 73.0 C 40 min 

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, , 8.1l) of 75.6 C water
Notes:
------


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## rcsoccer (19/7/12)

DJR said:


> Dragging up an old thread....
> 
> Was having a look at beer styles to try out and this looks interesting. Anyway what do ppl think of this recipe beow? Might be a bit much to do a 10min one? Does it need flameout hops or should i smash it through the hoprocket with NZ cascade? From the read of it a single 10 min addition should do it?
> 
> ...



Just throw all the grains in the mash. Don't worry about cold steeping the roasted grains. I've brewed a 10 min Pale Ale before and people thought I was crazy, but it was delicious.  Some people think that you don't get the right hop compound isomerization when you only do a 10 minutes boil, but I think one can do whatever they want when it comes to homebrew. I would add a little more hops to the boil (maybe at 5 mins left) to get a lot more aroma. The darker roasted grains are going to mask a lot of the citrusy flavor from the Amarillo. And, maybe throw in 1/2 kg of Roasted barley. I don't think that is enough of the Carafa II for a true Black IPA. Although, I have had a few dozen of them in the states and they range from no roast flavor to stout-like roast flavor. I've actually had one before that just tasted like an American IPA, but it was black in color.

Anyway, good luck.


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## katzke (20/7/12)

Black IPS's are just that, a black IPA. The color is there only for looks. My wife liked the taste of late addition better then cold steeped. I think when you cold steep the grain starts to sour. I could not realy tell any difference, however she did. So I do a late addition at mash out or even flaim out and add a bit, check color, and so on till I get the color I want. I BIAB so the grain gets pulled as soon as the color is correct.

If you want to brew a Cascadia Dark Ale then go for the roasted grains.

Two totaly different beers. Not even sure if BJCP has adopded a standard yet. Last I heard the true Black IPA was on the loosing end of the fight.

Wife likes hoppy beers, so I have no comment on a 10 minute IPA. Has to have lots of hops and late additions as well as dry hopping.


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## chunckious (20/7/12)

I don't think that the darkness is only for looks in a BIPA.
My favorite is Pot Kettle Black - Yeastie Boys and it has a whack of Roasted Barley in it. Almost a stout cross IPA.
The base I use to get in the ball park is: -
77% Pale Malt
8% Melanoidin
5% Crystal 120
4% Pale Choc
3% Black Patent
3% Roasted Barley

Best of luck mate :beer:


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## katzke (20/7/12)

Chunkious said:


> I don't think that the darkness is only for looks in a BIPA.



The classic definition of a BIPA is a parlor trick. The black messes with your brain and you get the taste you want.

A Cascadian Dark Ale (fixed the spelling) is a hoppy porter if you wish to define it as such.

The 2 get confused. No dark roasty malt in a BIPA. Dark roasty malt is what you want in a Cascadian Dark Ale.

Just like the bars that put green food dye in beer for Saint Pattys day. It is not a Mint flavored beer. Just junk with food dye in it.


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## dent (20/7/12)

Do you have an example of this classic definition?


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## Tilt (20/7/12)

If you're looking for a Pot Kettle Black recipe then Stu McKinlay, one half of the Yeastie Boys, published a couple of iterations of the recipe on the NZ RealBeer forum a while back. It goes something like this:

Yeastie Boys "Pot Kettle Black" American Porter
79% Maris Otter
10% Munich II
4.5% Crystal 55L
3% Pale Chocolate
2% Chocolate
1.5% Black Patent

67c mash. 60min boil to around 1.060 - and a massive US Cascade-fest to about 55ibu (dry hopped with them too). US-05.

and the 2010 remix recipe:

PKB Remix 2010 (US Mix)
Malt:
56.3% Pale Malt(2-row)
25.0% Munich II 
12.5% Crystal 90 
3.7% Pale Chocolate Malt
2.5% Black Patent Malt 

Hops:
n.ng/L Nugget 13.0%aa 60 min. (enough to hit 60ibu)
1.6g/L Cascade (US) 5.75%aa 30 min.
1.5g/L Cascade (US) 5.75%aa 15 min.
3.0g/L Cascade (US) 5.75%aa 0 min.
0.5g/L Cascade (US) 5.75%aa Dry hop warm (after krausen)
0.5g/L Cascade (US) 5.75%aa Dry hop warm (after krausen + 4days)

Yeast:
US Ale 

They're both rippers!!


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## Nick JD (20/7/12)

E150c.


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## manticle (20/7/12)

katzke said:


> The classic definition of a BIPA is a parlor trick. The black messes with your brain and you get the taste you want.
> 
> A Cascadian Dark Ale (fixed the spelling) is a hoppy porter if you wish to define it as such.
> 
> ...



So it's a show pony beer then?

Like Heston Blumenthal but less interesting. How can we make the beer that every single microbrewery is doing different?

LET'S MAKE IT DARKER!!!

I've had many a nice BIPA/BIA but they would have been just as nice without the black. Lot of kerfuffle about not very much at all. 

I've been drinking Carlton Arse at a work function so forgive any grumpiness.


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## Nick JD (21/7/12)

I have done a few White IPAs (~3 SRM). 

Is that racist?


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## chunckious (21/7/12)

I blame Nick JD for bringing this thread into disrepute.


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## Nick JD (21/7/12)

Chunkious said:


> I blame Nick JD for bringing this thread into disrepute.



Gee Dubbya IPA in opposition to Ross's Obama IPA.


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