# My Lager Taste Like Bread



## matti (11/9/09)

Well my lager didn't turn out.
I think i must have caught some bad habit.
You live and you learn.
It is wierd though.
Usually if i get and infected beer they go sour. 
This one just taste very grainy but not astringent in any way.
Also there is no real yeasty flavour in it either.

I am writing this post to query what bacteria can cause such an effect to a beer.
The beer hops are not detectable and it went cloudy from being quite clear when i transferred to the keg.

Just gotto be more diligent next time from start to beginning.

Now my only hope is that I find time to brew something descent or i'll have to go backward and start doing extracts or FWK.

Back to work
Matti


----------



## white.grant (11/9/09)

What was the recipe and process Matti? 

I don't associate breadiness with an infection, and that flavour isn't necessarily a bad thing in Helles and other malty lagers. 

Cheers

grant


----------



## Wisey (11/9/09)

What sort of yeast did you use?


----------



## AndrewQLD (11/9/09)

I'd be interested to hear what yeast and grain you used too, also mash regime.

Andrew


----------



## Maple (11/9/09)

matti said:


> snip
> This one just taste very grainy but not astringent in any way. Like the others have questioned, this is likely due to the type of grain combined with mash regime (temp and time)
> Also there is no real yeasty flavour in it either. Seems odd, as breadiness can usually be attributed to the yeast not flocc'ing out, but can also be due to particular malt flavour - something I have been striving for actually
> 
> ...


----------



## Bribie G (11/9/09)

My first Bohemian Pilsener has turned out a bit like yours, hardly any hop flavour and I suppose you could describe it as bready. It may be some sort of infection, but it's drinkable. I'm cutting mine with bottles of Oettinger which give a bit of a Saaz hit, I'll work my way through the batch eventually :icon_cheers:

I doubt if I'll be doing another lager until I'm set up with a bigger live fridge where I can spare the room for a fermenter for three months, I'll stick to ales from now on and I can make a great fake lager using US 05 anyway, in a quarter of the time.


----------



## lagers44 (11/9/09)

Hey Matti , i had a similar thing with my lagers a while back - the bready taste more like fresh uncooked dough. I was using safLager 34/70 at 10C so i switched to liquid yeast and the problem has gone. It may disappear or mellow out with time.


----------



## matti (11/9/09)

Highjack Lager

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

03-A European Amber Lager, Vienna Lager

Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 18 Max IBU: 30
Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 16 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.40 Wort Size (L): 23.40
Total Grain (kg): 5.42
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.41
Anticipated SRM: 8.5
Anticipated IBU: 27.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 27.53 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG 11.48 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 3 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %
Additional Utilization Used For First Wort Hops: -10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Extract SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
37.7 2.04 kg. Munich Malt Australia 1.021 6
37.7 2.04 kg. Vienna Malt Germany 1.020 3
20.9 1.13 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.012 2
3.7 0.20 kg. JWM Crystal 140 Australia 1.002 74

Exract represented as SG.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.00 g. Czech Saaz Plug 2.20 3.1 First WH
28.36 g. Perle Plug 6.25 20.5 45 min.
28.91 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.00 4.0 20 min.
14.18 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.00 0.0 0 min.

2 sachets of S-23 pitch dry at 16 thwe lower to 12 degrees

I havent had the time or the patience to put liquid yeast and starter for a while and this was a brew I put down in March and no chilled.

I recall I did a protein rest at 52 then mash around 65 and mashed out after 90 Minutes.
I expected it to be a full beer slighty on the estery side.

1 week in primary rack to secondary for another week. 
OG 1.054
FG 1.014
chilled to 1 degree 3 weeks
transferred to keg 5 days ago.

If it is not bacteria it could be my mash regime and I may need to calibrate my thermometers.
Also I think the yeast is rather crap.

I will leave it in keg for another week and see but i have little confidence.
Will try ot keep you posted 

Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast
Must use better yeast


----------



## Thirsty Boy (11/9/09)

probably no the yeast - but maybe your treatment of it? 2 weeks total fermentation time for a lager is pretty short, especially with racking off the primary cake after only a week. My lagers get more like 4-5 weeks, but I don't use a secondary.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you say bready ... but all those malts apart from the crystal, have bready qualities to them - I would fully expect a beer that was made from 4/5ths vienna and munich malt to have a great big malty bready flavour - and with 33ish% munich, you are heading from light lager seriously in the direction of Munich Dunkel .. and the classic descriptor for a munich dunkel is "like a glass of liquid bread..."

If your vienna lager _didn't_ taste a fair bit like bread - I would be inclined to think you got it wrong.

But - thats talking about the taste descriptor that _I_ understand to mean bready... certainly doesn't mean that this is the same thing you are tasting.


----------



## matti (11/9/09)

Yes thirsty.
It is always difficult to describe flavours.
In my partial days I used this yeast quite frequently with good results.

(Is it posssible that oxygentation of finished beer may contribute to this flavour too?)

I generally rack my beer around 1.020 if the final gravity is around 1.010 mark
This one I gave a diacetyl rest at SG. 1.024 at 18 degrees then racked to secondary.

I didn't keep notes of the fermentation but i recall that after 48 hours of pitching she was going helter skelter and that I set the fridge to 8 degrees as the temperature was still 14 degrees on the brew. 
Another thing could be that my Stick on thermometer is in accurate and it was fermented warmer then it said.
I'll have to put the probe on the actual fermenter side next time just to see if this make a difference.

I think it was actual 9 days in the primary with the rest but Since I didn't keep notes and working shift work I may have just miscounted the days.

That will teach me.

I think I may stick to brewing ales for a while.
Maybe a APA

Cheers anyway for all the input.

matti


----------



## white.grant (12/9/09)

I'm with Thirsty, I think breadiness is exactly what that grain bill was going to give you. So you could relax about your process and maybe rethink the recipe. 

chees

grant


----------



## Ross (12/9/09)

Hi matti,

As others have said, that recipe has bready maltiness bursting from the seams.
Maybe try a 100% premium pils grain bill & get your OG down to approx 1045. You are going to struggle big time with an OG of 1054 to get a nice crisp pilsner. 

cheers Ross


----------



## crundle (12/9/09)

Sounds tasty if it is ANYTHING like a Munich Dunkel!!!

Crundle


----------



## matti (12/9/09)

so my Vienna is a Munich Dunkel hehehe

I'd like to thank you all for the input, it is an fantastic forum.


Yes I am slightly intoxicated learning about taste notes after three High Jack Dunkels and it Tastes OK.

The cloudiness is because unfiltered
The sweetness is Crystal too sweet
The funky esters are S-23 (10 pts off)
The breadiness are due to grain bill.
Hops bitterness is there but no aroma (5 pts off)

Score: Drinkable 

So only thing I have to be concerned of is if the chill)( haze will spoil the beer.

Next time I think I'll attempt

2 parts 2 row lager malt
1 Parts Vienna
1 parts Munich

No crystal.


----------



## crundle (12/9/09)

A nice Munich Dunkel recipe is

Munich I - 95%
Carafa Special II - 3.5%
Melanoidin - 1.5% (unless you are doing a decoction mash)

17IBU Hallertau @60
3IBU Hallertau @ 40
2IBU Hallertau @20

I used 2308 on it and fermented at 9 degrees with a diacetyl rest at the end. Malty goodness!

Crundle


----------



## troopa (12/9/09)

What do you cal it if you use an ale yeast Crundle? 
Cause that sure sounds bloody nice and i dont want to tie my fridge up for 1 to 2 months 

Tom


----------



## crundle (12/9/09)

Troopa said:


> What do you cal it if you use an ale yeast Crundle?
> Cause that sure sounds bloody nice and i dont want to tie my fridge up for 1 to 2 months
> 
> Tom



Only took 2 1/2 weeks to ferment out, but yeah, it does tie up the fridge. Don't really know what you would call it if you used ale yeast, but as long as you can get it to ferment out cleanly it would be interesting to try, a bit like a Munich Steam Beer (Munich Common?)  

It sucks a bit only having room for one fermenter in the fridge for lagers, but I guess I am lucky to have that when others don't have that luxury!

Crundle


----------



## kenlock (12/9/09)

Troopa said:


> What do you cal it if you use an ale yeast Crundle?
> Cause that sure sounds bloody nice and i dont want to tie my fridge up for 1 to 2 months
> 
> Tom



Munich Dunkale


----------



## manticle (12/9/09)

My SMASH pilsner also tastes like bread but I don't mind it.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (14/9/09)

matti said:


> so my Vienna is a Munich Dunkel hehehe



I dont know - I think your recipe still looks a hell of a lot like a vienna lager to me, maybe a Marzen. Actually its quite similar to an Marzen I've done well with.

But all those amber lagers have blurry borders between them IMHO

Your new recipe looks like it will be delicious anyway.

TB


----------



## matti (14/9/09)

I have bought my self a couple of bottles of Dunkel from Dan Murphys.

Yet to taste them but I will have a comparison test.
I think it will be quite a difference as the yeast was S-23 in comparison to using something like 
Weihenstephan 206 or
WLP830 German Lager Yeast/ 2124 Bohemian Lager Yeast/ 34/70.

Maybe even a Bock yeast. WLP833.

The possibilities are endless.  

matti


----------



## mckenry (14/9/09)

matti said:


> Another thing could be that my Stick on thermometer is in accurate and it was fermented warmer then it said.
> I'll have to put the probe on the actual fermenter side next time just to see if this make a difference.
> 
> matti



Absolutely. Ignore the stick on. In my experience they are up to 4C out. I blu-tac my fridgemate probe to the side. There are more exact ways, which involve dip tubes, more holes in your lid etc, but on the side is good enough, and far more acurate than any stick on.


----------



## matti (14/9/09)

My screen setting make it look a lot darker then it is.
It has an orange brown tint to it.
Amazing how it has changed character since 1st drop.
Hopefully i've got some left for another two week lol


----------



## Bongchitis (15/9/09)

matti said:


> View attachment 30886
> 
> 
> My screen setting make it look a lot darker then it is.
> ...




So has it stopped tasting like bread? When I spoke to you a week ago you were not pleased at all... looks the goods though. I'll have to come over and try some.


----------



## matti (18/9/09)

Well I tried a glass last night and I think I know what may have happened regarding the clarity.
Some how I must have got yeast through when I transferred it to the keg even though I attempted not to.
This has now dropped some what and hopefully it will clear up if I can leave it alone.
It still taste a little grainy and a note of bitterness in the finish I am not fully happy with but still very drinkable.
As to comparison to a dunkel it is far from it.
It is still a crud lager LOL

You are more then welcome to drop in Bongchitis if you are in the neighbour hood.
Migh c u sooner then that though.


----------

