# Who bothers with water chemistry?



## mtb

There are plenty of threads on water chemistry in specifics, but I want to know, how many of you take the time to make mineral additions / pH adjustments?
I became confident it had some merit after noticing that the most statistically significant Brulosophy XBMT was one that focussed solely on water chemistry. Researching local Canberra water and plugging variables into Bru'n Water told me that my mash pH was too high (5.85), sulfate / calcium / chloride was too low etc. I now brew with modified water and results are good thus far but there's a good chance that is due to confirmation bias.

Any AHBers swear by (or swear against) water modification, and the extra effort it requires?


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## Coodgee

I have a good ph meter and take a reading every brew. I adjust with lactic acid and salts as necessary.


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## timmi9191

Me


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## Rocker1986

I've been doing it with my pilsners for about 18 months by distilling water for them and adding back small amounts of minerals. These batches have turned out nicer than one I did with straight tap water.

After getting a water report, or at least a rough idea of what my water is like I have begun mucking around with salt additions to suit certain styles of beer. The first of these is an APA that will be fermented next, so not sure what impact this will have yet. pH is something I haven't looked into in great detail yet, but the beers are turning out well and I have no efficiency problems or anything, so I figure it must be pretty much in the zone.


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## fletcher

me. i think it's worth it, but my issue is not knowing enough about the nuances of all the additions - eg, how i personally prefer x water profile over y water profile. i'm sure i'll get there eventually. might split batches and alter only their water chemistry to compare.


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## MHB

Wouldn't exactly call it a lot of effort, once you have done a couple of treatments you should have a pretty good idea of what you will need to add.
Something to do while the water is heating up or the grain is being milled...
Mark


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## manticle

I make water additions but for me it's pretty simple. When I first started, I did a lot of reading, some writing (helped me understand the ins and outs) and measured mash pH before and after additions. I also followed the local water report and used software/spreadsheets to estimate required amounts.

I do think it makes a difference.

Now, however my approach is pretty slapdash as I feel I have a handle on the process, start with very soft, clean water, * and am confident in my system, palate, etc. I also rarely brew exactly the same beer and develop my own recipes so being super consistent isn't high on my list. I cook the same way these days.

Thus I now eyeball salts into the mash and boil, dash a bit of lactic into paler mash and into sparge water and enjoy my day. I rarely measure my hop additions any more either. I only recommend this approach if you are more than happy with where you are at - if struggling with process issues, be precise.

Understanding the chemistry at play was the most important part for me and something in which I retain interest.

*If I had loads of minerals or chlorine in my water, I'd be a bit more precise and do some filtering/cleaning first - water down here is good to go though.


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## good4whatAlesU

Very early into the learning process for me. Main concern is taking out the chlorine which is quite high in our water supply. 

I'm also quite into Stouts so have been trying to learn how to adjust the pH (calcium additions) to account for the dark grains lowering it too much.


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## manticle

Cold steeping and adding to last ten minutes of mash is my preferred route. Otherwise slaked lime or adding acid (specific acid from memory - braukauiser should have more info) to calcium carbonate.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk


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## mtb

Glad to hear I'm not going overboard in spending time researching water profiles etc.



MHB said:


> Wouldn't exactly call it a lot of effort


Fair point - I referred to the effort involved in researching and targeting a specific water profile. For example, achieving the right sulfate:chloride ratio (dodgy Brulosophy research indicates a sulfate-sided ratio accentuates hop flavour, for example).

I will point out for the educated masses that I consider Brulosophy's XBMT conclusions to be based very loosely on actual scientific method (not looking for a repeat of this thread although I completely agree with Doc and MHB), but in a list of dodgy XBMTs, I consider the top 5% of statistically significant outcomes to more likely be dependable


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## good4whatAlesU

manticle said:


> Cold steeping and adding to last ten minutes of mash is my preferred route. Otherwise slaked lime or adding acid (specific acid from memory - braukauiser should have more info) to calcium carbonate.
> 
> http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk


Sound advice there. I've just kegged a cold steeped stout last weekend, so I'm impatient to find out what it turns out like. Will have to wait a month until I finish what's in the fridge (no room for two kegs). A month aging won't hurt it.


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## welly2

The last three or four batches I've put through Bru'n Water spreadsheet and added appropriate salt additions. Those three or four batches have been the best beers I've made so far. Not necessarily the tastiest (but still very tasty) as they've been a bit experimental but definitely the most well made. I'm going to remake a couple of beers I've made in the past with salt additions and see if/how they improve. Definitely very little extra work - a few minutes setting up in Bru'n Water, measuring out the salts, running strike and sparge water through my filter, just part of the process now.

Also, O2 when pitching yeast, but we've been through this on another thread. It's the small things that seem to make a better beer.


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## BKBrews

I've improved my beer out of sight since using the EZ Water Calculator and adding acidulated Malt, calcium chloride, calcium Sulphate and magnesium Sulphate to my mash. Notoriously soft water here on the Coast.


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## Bribie G

Likewise, I've got a "cocktail bar" of salts, as well as Calcium Lactate that I buffer with Lactic Acid.

I use rainwater nowadays and adjust according to style: Burtonisation for Southern UK and hoppy styles, Calcium Chloride for Yorkshire bitters and Lactic for lagers.

However I found that EZwater doesn't "do" BIAB very well so it's mostly a half tsp of this, half tsp of that.

Works out ok.


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## Coodgee

I had a cheap pH meter that just wasn't accurate enough when i first started measuring mash pH. I measured pH 5.0 on a mid strength beer so i added a teaspoon of baking soda which gave me a measurement of ph 5.4. Turned out astringent as hell. When i got a better pH meter and measured the mash pH of a subsequent brew of the same recipe it was pH 5.7 before any salt additions!

The lesson is unless you invest in a decent pH meter and store and calibrate it correctly you could end up doing more harm than good


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## BKBrews

Coodgee said:


> I had a cheap pH meter that just wasn't accurate enough when i first started measuring mash pH. I measured pH 5.0 on a mid strength beer so i added a teaspoon of baking soda which gave me a measurement of ph 5.4. Turned out astringent as hell. When i got a better pH meter and measured the mash pH of a subsequent brew of the same recipe it was pH 5.7 before any salt additions!
> 
> The lesson is unless you invest in a decent pH meter and store and calibrate it correctly you could end up doing more harm than good


I know a few people who have used the EZ Water Calculator and the estimated mash pH was spot on. I'm comfortable enough to rely on this without a pH meter, especially if I'm still producing good beer.


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## Danscraftbeer

I do but I keep it soft. I've never gone high on minerals like Burton on Trent for example is excessive to look at. My additions work out to be around 25% of that profile as for the volume of finished beer. Not for the volume of water used etc.
I use filtered Melbourne water that I consider as a blank start with a pH ` 6.0. Minerals added to mash water. Sparged with filtered water. I hit expected pH and efficiency consistently with just minor variations from Pales to Darks etc.
I get much more malty character in my beer now. Good clarity without any post ferment finings. The results are great to me so I'm not going to mess or experiment much more from the profile I've come up with. -
For now anyway.....


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## mtb

I don't actually use a pH meter, I rely on the pH/hardness rating from the water report and Bru'n Water's estimates of my mash pH based on that. Sounds like it'd do me some good to invest in a meter..


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## mtb

(local water pH is 7.7 apparently which gives me a mash pH of 5.8 without acid malt, which apparently is a bit high)


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## manticle

It is high but is that number for pale beers, mid or dark? Measured at room temp?


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## mtb

Pale @ room temp


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## manticle

Yep. Too high but easily managed.


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## mtb

Yep 6g of citric acid granules brings it to 5.4, sorted


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## Coodgee

In brisbane we get water from multiple sources and it changes without notice. Could be a certain alkalinity and double that the next day.


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## mtb

Coodgee said:


> In brisbane we get water from multiple sources and it changes without notice. Could be a certain alkalinity and double that the next day.


That's a pain in the ass.. maybe you can find a local source of distilled water?


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## Mattress

My approach is pretty relaxed.

I add PH 5.2 stabilizer to my mash water
then either some Calcium Sulfate for hoppy beers or Calcium Chloride for malty beers

But I'm brewing for pleasure at the moment, not for competition or style.


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## Rocker1986

mtb said:


> That's a pain in the ass.. maybe you can find a local source of distilled water?


I have a water still, which is about as local as you can get as a source of distilled water  :lol:

Anyway, I haven't noticed any difference in the quality and flavour of my beers that have been brewed with untreated Brisbane tap water in a bit over 4 years of brewing AG with it. I did notice that my pilsners are better with very soft water, hence the water still, but other styles are fine, so I don't waste energy distilling water for everything. They can probably be improved with some tinkering like I'm doing now, but they didn't change noticeably from batch to batch with untreated water.

I'm not sure if the change in supply is so much the issue, it's more that a lot of the catchment area for the major dams is full of limestone, and when it rains a lot in those areas, the water temporarily goes harder. At least it did when Dad worked as an industrial chemist; they used to test the tap water quite often and found after a lot of rain in those areas that it was harder than normal. I would imagine it still does that now since the same dams are used.


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## rude

Me too

Use R/O water

Brun water advanced ( gave a donation to Martin )

AD12 ph meter

Acidulated malt to bring ph down

Pickling lime ( calcium hydroxide ) to raise ph

CaSo4 , Cacl2 , MgSo4 

I like the process, use scales but hey I like Manticles approach nice & casual good feel style
as long as the beers turn out ok who cares the end result is the proof


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## peteru

mtb said:


> I don't actually use a pH meter, I rely on the pH/hardness rating from the water report and Bru'n Water's estimates of my mash pH based on that. Sounds like it'd do me some good to invest in a meter..


If you only want to take a few dozen measurements to get a feel for what you need to do on a typical brew day, it may be easier and cheaper to get some pH strips, rather than buying a meter.


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## mtb

peteru said:


> If you only want to take a few dozen measurements to get a feel for what you need to do on a typical brew day, it may be easier and cheaper to get some pH strips, rather than buying a meter.


I was thinking the same. Will grab a few next time I'm at the LHBS


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## rude

I recon using Brun is close enough the strips dont or didnt cut it for me


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## BKBrews

I find it hard to be restrained at times. You start adding additions to get your mash pH down and before you know it your minerals are all through the roof.


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## GalBrew

I don't think it's that much of an extra effort in the context of a brew day. I have also started using a little acidulated malt in every beer, then fine tune with mineral additions for mash pH, calcium and sulphate/chloride.


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## mtb

GalBrew said:


> I don't think it's that much of an extra effort in the context of a brew day. I have also started using a little acidulated malt in every beer, then fine tune with mineral additions for mash pH, calcium and sulphate/chloride.


True - it isn't much effort at all, in comparison. I was anticipating a general consensus that mineral additions etc are unnecessary, a "my beer tastes fine without it so why bother" mentality. Nothing against that mentality personally but I like to experiment with my process and I'm glad to see others are too


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## Dave70

I figure there must be an opening for somebody with access to an aquifer under Prauge, its luscious soft water and some shipping contacts.
With punters already forking out double for bottled water what they pay for petrol, I'm convinced you can flog anything if its correctly marketed. 
IBC bulk buy anybody?


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## mtb

Dave70 said:


> I figure there must be an opening for somebody with access to an aquifer under Prauge, its luscious soft water and some shipping contacts.
> With punters already forking out double for bottled water what they pay for petrol, I'm convinced you can flog anything if its correctly marketed.
> IBC bulk buy anybody?


If only.. for the interim I'll simply have to try replicate it with adjustments. Time to go Google the Prague water profile h34r:


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## mtb

Anyone read Czech?
http://www.pvk.cz/res/archive/1735/175703.pdf?seek=1478266829


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## damoninja

Not I. 

Perfectly satisfied with the product I make. 

"Ah but you don't know any different until you try it" don't care


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## mtb

damoninja said:


> Not I.
> 
> Perfectly satisfied with the product I make.
> 
> "Ah but you don't know any different until you try it" don't care


And don't let any obnoxious douchenozzle tell you that's wrong.


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## mtb

Dave70, would you think the Pilsen water profile is at all similar? It's built into Beersmith


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## Dan Pratt

When I moved to water chem for my beers I noticed a solid leap in better beers.  Mainly the pH being targeted for the style I was making which made the final beers taste better. 

These days Im using rain water and adding back to get target ppm for desired styles. 

Usually any ales less than 5% will get moderate sulphate to 175ppm, bigger ales will be full 300ppm for burtonized water.

Lagers are pretty much rain water with some acidulated malt or lactic to get bang on 5.2pH for that crisp finish.

Any darker beers like porter or stout i try and get the hardness around 150-200ppm which has been better than using soft tap water. 

Over this past month my beers are taking a NE IPA style approach with Chloride forward Hoppy ales tro 150ppm plus using 15-20% Oats ( No fining or gelatin ) These are stupidly hopped up with close to 8g per litre dry hopped plus the late kettle hops...results are pending and after yrs of sulphate forward for hoppy styles its new territory.

:beerbang:


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## peteru

mtb said:


> Anyone read Czech?
> http://www.pvk.cz/res/archive/1735/175703.pdf?seek=1478266829


I do, although my chemistry vocabulary is limited. Google may do a decent job of translating. If it does not, I can help with specific terms.

Although, I'm not sure why bother with Prague water. It's not used as is in any commercial brewing. It tastes quite disgusting and many Prague residents fill up canisters of water in other towns and bring it home for drinking and cooking.

If you are looking at widely known Czech beers, you might consider the Pilsen well water (which is going to be very different to municipal water), Ceske Budejovice (Budvar) water or Velke Popovice (Kozel) water. I think all those breweries now treat their water to get it consistent anyway, so replicating town water profiles may not get you anywhere near the brewing water.


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## Coodgee

My process is fairly simple. For hop-forward ales and "non-delicate" beers I use the tap water but the water is so variable in Brisbane that I don't bother with precise calculations. If I'm brewing a hoppy beer I will add between 5 and 12 grams of gypsum for a 23L batch to ensure the sulphate/chloride ratio is easily in favour of the sulphates. Then I take a mash pH reading after 15 minutes and adjust as necessary for the style with lactic acid. It's pretty easy but the key is a reliable pH meter that you can trust. If you are using a poor pH meter or strips it's like wanking in oven mitts. For finesse beers like lagers I'll pay $10 for 38L of RO water from the dispensing machine down the road and add a combination of gypsum and calcium chloride to build a profile. Then measure and adjust mash pH as required and use the RO water for sparging.


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## Coodgee

Pratty1 said:


> Over this past month my beers are taking a NE IPA style approach with Chloride forward Hoppy ales tro 150ppm plus using 15-20% Oats ( No fining or gelatin ) These are stupidly hopped up with close to 8g per litre dry hopped plus the late kettle hops...results are pending and after yrs of sulphate forward for hoppy styles its new territory.
> 
> :beerbang:


please keep us updated! Do you expect less hop astringency and more smoothness from this beer?


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## Dan Pratt

^ ^ its supposed to make it like that however the shelf life and hop character can fade pretty fast. 

I will likely post something about it.


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## Dave70

mtb said:


> Dave70, would you think the Pilsen water profile is at all similar? It's built into Beersmith


No idea mate. The most high tech I've ever got with water additions was a teaspoon or two of chalk in a the odd stout / porter. Other than that its straight rainwater. 
On the other hand, having guzzled as much beer as time and walking un aided would allow  sampled the odd Pilsner whilst in Prague, there is certainly a little magic in those beers. 
If the water actually_ is _actually a integral piece of the puzzle, than its worth pursuing. 
If you have a sandstone cellar underneath your house like this, and plenty of oak barrels, all the better.


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## mtb

Maybe if I get diggin' now...


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## Rocker1986

That Pilsen water profile in Beersmith is what I roughly aim for with the mineral additions to my distilled water when I brew pilsners. They certainly turn out better than using straight tap water, so there must be some element of truth to it. The mineral additions are stupidly small though, even for 36L of strike water. Half a gram of this, 0.14 grams of that... :blink: :lol:


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## mtb

Yeah Pilsen seems very low on most minerals. Just put together a Pale Ale profile though, and it calls for 18g Gypsum in 40L strike water. Pretty drastic difference, but I guess that's the point, different beers = different profiles


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## Adr_0

For my water here - very moderate across all minerals/ions - I ended up adding just under 12g of CaSO4 to an APA, which gave a theoretical mineral profile of:
32.0 Sodium (mg/l)
206.3 Sulfate (mg/l)
39.0 Chloride (mg/l)
130.5 Bicarbonate (mg/l)

Admittedly the base malt was 50% pils, but even with an FG of 1014 the beer was extremely dry and had quite a sharp bitterness. I initially wondered if I needed more (bi)carbonate, but my understanding of this is that:
- it wouldn't dissolve in a pale mash very well, at pH 5.4
- anything carrying over into the beer would come out of suspension

So is my answer to the above actually chloride?

I have seen a few people use chalk - mostly to 'soften' a beer with roasted malts, though if it precipitates out of solution in the boil I'm not sure that's very useful. The boil pH is going to be a lot lower than the mash pH, so perhaps chalk should go in in the last couple of minutes?

And on another note, using 100% distilled water and a touch of acid malt, a 45-50IBU pils (Magnum, Styrian Goldings, Pacifica) had a very clean, pleasant bitterness - still solid but long lasting and soft, as others have said. So definitely go this way for these beers.


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## mtb

Adr_0 said:


> So is my answer to the above actually chloride?


Yeah from what I've read, there's a lot to be considered in sulfate/chloride ratios. A high proportion of sulfates apparently will yield way more bitterness per IBU.


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## mtb

Might actually qualify that post with an excerpt of the linked article. As for your sulfate:chloride ratio Adr_0, your ratio is 5.4 according to Beersmith. According to the chart below that is in the "Very bitter" range.

_Chloride ions tend to enhance the malty aspects of beer, as well as enhance the perception of mouthfeel. Sulfate ions, in contrast, tend to accentuate hop flavors and bitternes, often leading to the perception of a drier and cleaner finish. Sulfate levels above 200 ppm are best reserved for hoppy beers like IPAs._

_John Palmer also published a water spreadsheet with guidelines for the ratio. A summary is below:_

_0-0.4: Too Malty_
_0.4-0.6: Very Malty_
_0.6-0.8: Malty_
_0.8-1.5: Balanced_
_1.5-2.0: Slightly Bitter_
_2-4: Bitter_
_4-9: Very bitter_
_9+: Too bitter!_


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## manticle

Adr_0 said:


> For my water here - very moderate across all minerals/ions - I ended up adding just under 12g of CaSO4 to an APA, which gave a theoretical mineral profile of:
> 32.0 Sodium (mg/l)
> 206.3 Sulfate (mg/l)
> 39.0 Chloride (mg/l)
> 130.5 Bicarbonate (mg/l)
> 
> Admittedly the base malt was 50% pils, but even with an FG of 1014 the beer was extremely dry and had quite a sharp bitterness. I initially wondered if I needed more (bi)carbonate, but my understanding of this is that:
> - it wouldn't dissolve in a pale mash very well, at pH 5.4
> - anything carrying over into the beer would come out of suspension
> 
> So is my answer to the above actually chloride?
> 
> I have seen a few people use chalk - mostly to 'soften' a beer with roasted malts, though if it precipitates out of solution in the boil I'm not sure that's very useful. The boil pH is going to be a lot lower than the mash pH, so perhaps chalk should go in in the last couple of minutes?
> 
> And on another note, using 100% distilled water and a touch of acid malt, a 45-50IBU pils (Magnum, Styrian Goldings, Pacifica) had a very clean, pleasant bitterness - still solid but long lasting and soft, as others have said. So definitely go this way for these beers.


Carnonate/bicarbonate won't help pale beer. If anything, I'd look at reducing what you already have.


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## Coodgee

Adr_0 said:


> For my water here - very moderate across all minerals/ions - I ended up adding just under 12g of CaSO4 to an APA, which gave a theoretical mineral profile of:
> 32.0 Sodium (mg/l)
> 206.3 Sulfate (mg/l)
> 39.0 Chloride (mg/l)
> 130.5 Bicarbonate (mg/l)
> 
> Admittedly the base malt was 50% pils, but even with an FG of 1014 the beer was extremely dry and had quite a sharp bitterness. I initially wondered if I needed more (bi)carbonate, but my understanding of this is that:
> - it wouldn't dissolve in a pale mash very well, at pH 5.4
> - anything carrying over into the beer would come out of suspension
> 
> So is my answer to the above actually chloride?
> 
> I have seen a few people use chalk - mostly to 'soften' a beer with roasted malts, though if it precipitates out of solution in the boil I'm not sure that's very useful. The boil pH is going to be a lot lower than the mash pH, so perhaps chalk should go in in the last couple of minutes?
> 
> And on another note, using 100% distilled water and a touch of acid malt, a 45-50IBU pils (Magnum, Styrian Goldings, Pacifica) had a very clean, pleasant bitterness - still solid but long lasting and soft, as others have said. So definitely go this way for these beers.



thats a sulphate to chloride ratio of 5.3 which beersmith puts in the bitter category, short of the "very bitter" category. But yeah that's on the more extreme end of the scale. I would think the answer lies not in adding more chloride but simply less sulphate. you've got to consider the amount of calcium you are adding too, which comes from both the gypsum and the CaCl. Maybe try 6 grams next time and see if it's more to your liking. Also, I find you really have to stir in your gypsum additions. The first one I did I found to be sitting as a big sticky clump on the top plate of my grainfather after I'd finished the mash.


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## wobbly

Those contemplating playing around with their water this link to Martin Brungard's "Water Knowledge" is a good reference starting point https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

You could/should also consider down loading Martins Bru'n Water Exel spread sheet from this link https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

There is a free version and a second version that requires a "donation" and the donation gets you a bit more detail

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Adr_0

Thanks guys, that's awesome - very good to know. I'm actually brewing a brown ale using largely distilled water - I don't quite trust the water here for some reason... - and will likely add CaCl2, CaSO4 and CaCO3. Maybe even some NaCl or sodium bicarb.



manticle said:


> Carnonate/bicarbonate won't help pale beer. If anything, I'd look at reducing what you already have.


Yeah - sorry I should have clarified. I didn't add any CaCO3 to the APA, but did to a dubbel and weizenbock - both of which were ok.

I'm comfortable with the chloride/sulphate - thanks for the posts above, they are awesome - but I am curious about the chalk. Is there any function past neutralising high-roast grain bills? In porters/stouts, by extension, does it then purely come down to pH in the final beer, with respect to CaCO3? I say this because chalky water might be great for these beers, but everything tells me it will precipitate during a boil, so won't really end up in the final beer as a 'softening' agent for roasty beers. Yes or no?


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## manticle

I'm not into chalk - needs to be dissolved in acid to do much of anything and I think there are better nethods of dealing with low pH in dark beers.


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## Adr_0

So some reading above, alkalinity being too high is probably not a good thing for flavour profile - essentially only enough chalk is needed to balance acids in darker beers. Certainly nothing in the boil.

This has me leaning towards bringing in salt with the CaCl2 and CaSO4 - hopefully not ending up with a gose.


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## manticle

Sodium chloride can work in small doses. Adds to chloride content and sodium in large amounts can be harsh and toxic to yeast.


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## Lethaldog

I'm a bit dumb[emoji23] I add a couple of tablespoons of ph 5.2 to my mash water and I'm pretty happy with my beers, I've never dabbled much in water treatment but I love the whole process of brewing so I might look a bit further into it but for now I seem to get pretty good efficiency and flavour!


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## rude

Adr_0 said:


> Thanks guys, that's awesome - very good to know. I'm actually brewing a brown ale using largely distilled water - I don't quite trust the water here for some reason... - and will likely add CaCl2, CaSO4 and CaCO3. Maybe even some NaCl or sodium bicarb.
> 
> Yeah - sorry I should have clarified. I didn't add any CaCO3 to the APA, but did to a dubbel and weizenbock - both of which were ok.
> 
> I'm comfortable with the chloride/sulphate - thanks for the posts above, they are awesome - but I am curious about the chalk. Is there any function past neutralising high-roast grain bills? In porters/stouts, by extension, does it then purely come down to pH in the final beer, with respect to CaCO3? I say this because chalky water might be great for these beers, but everything tells me it will precipitate during a boil, so won't really end up in the final beer as a 'softening' agent for roasty beers. Yes or no?


You need to read Brun water it will explain it

Pale beers PH is too high

Dark beers PH is too low

Adjust the mash for the correct PH

Add the salts to the kettle for flavour

Chalk is hard to desolve so I use pickling lime instaed which has worked for me


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## MHB

mth, if you do a bit of reading up on the theory of predicting pH and additions of water slats the term Residual Alkalinity will come up.
This was the first fully evolved look at water chemistry, it was developed early in the 20th centaury by a German brewing researcher called Kolbach.
Anyway one of the concepts he developed was a German Degree of Hardness (odH) used to describe the amount of various salts, turns out that Pilsen Water has 1odH of most of the basic water salts. Considering when the research was done, the water was most likely what the brewery was using.
Ca - 7.1ppm
Mg - 2.4ppm
HCO3 - 14ppm
As much as I admire Joseph Groll, this is really not ideal water for making pilsner, which is in-part why they did a fairly complex triple decoction and a two hour boil, uses relatively large amounts of hops, that's what it took to make really great beer with water that is a bit too much of a blank a slate.
Mark


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## Adr_0

rude said:


> You need to read Brun water it will explain it
> 
> Pale beers PH is too high
> 
> Dark beers PH is too low
> 
> Adjust the mash for the correct PH
> 
> Add the salts to the kettle for flavour
> 
> Chalk is hard to desolve so I use pickling lime instaed which has worked for me


Yep, I get it. Thanks.

So I guess to clarify my question, is there any use for chalk or bicarbonate in the boil/for flavour with stouts/porters to soften the acidity/harshness of the roasted malts?

Not asking about late steeping of these grains, asking about bicarbonate. Understand about mash pH but more talking about the finished beer - the higher bicarbonate, of course, would mean elevated residual alkalinity - for stouts/porters. Yes, no?


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## vittorio

using science to brew will always make your beer better.... with hobby home brewers you dont have to unless the brew really needs it. some waters eg Melbourne is pretty sweet, just use a campden tablet to dechlorinating tap water....


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## Adr_0

manticle said:


> I'm not into chalk - needs to be dissolved in acid to do much of anything and I think there are better nethods of dealing with low pH in dark beers.


Ah ok, fair enough. I can understand Ca(OH)2 will leave your pH neutralised (to the 5.2-5.6 range in the correct amount) but after a boil the pH with a darker beer is still going to be lowish - hence the question about bicarbonate to soften the beer (in mouthfeel, not removing hardness).


----------



## rude

Baking soda , chalk & pickling lime are not recommended in the sparge or the kettle when reading the Brun Water ?


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## Jaded and Bitter

Adr_0 said:


> Ah ok, fair enough. I can understand Ca(OH)2 will leave your pH neutralised (to the 5.2-5.6 range in the correct amount) but after a boil the pH with a darker beer is still going to be lowish - hence the question about bicarbonate to soften the beer (in mouthfeel, not removing hardness).


Any bicarb you add to your mash and/sparge water will be used up in developing your mash pH. The kettle boil does not precipitate out carbonates. This only works for hot liquor with a lot of dissolved chalk from carbonic acid. Boiling drives of the carbon dioxide and hence carbonic acid so the chalk precipitates out.

If the pre boil pH is out of the ideal 5.2-5.5 range at room temperature there was a problem with your mash and/or sparge pH.

But by the time its in the kettle of course its too late. So if you need to adjust with lactic acid or bicarb soda or your prefferred acid/ base.

If you havnt already done so, buy a good pH meter such as a HM Digital PH-200 (which I have) or a milwaukee MW 102. And take care of it.

Build up your water profile with salt and acid as required for the beer style from say bru'water or the water book (which I use) check mash and sparge ph at room temperature and your pre boil kettle pH should be fine.

If you want to raise a little add something like bicarb soda etc.

The kettle pH will drop during the boil.

Hope this helps


----------



## Jack of all biers

mtb said:


> I now brew with modified water and results are good thus far but there's a good chance that is due to confirmation bias.
> 
> Any AHBers swear by (or swear against) water modification, and the extra effort it requires?


I read this thread a few days ago and thought it was covered, but just incase someone one day comes along and says, well is it confirmation bias or what.......

I did a little brew test today on an IPA. It was version 2 of a recipe I am working on and the last recipe had a pH of 5.58 (no acid or acidulated malt added to it and I got around an 80% mash eff). For shits and giggles for V2 I thought I'd add some acidulated malt and run it through Brewers friend to see what they predicted. Because of the predictions I upped my Calc. Chloride and Calc. Sulphate additions to get a mash pH around the 5.2 mark.

Recipe of V2 IPA (or now that it is done it could well be a Indian Golden Ale perhaps as it is very dark Amber in colour)
Water: Adelaide Central mains water - Alkalinity (as calcium carbonate) average: 52 mg/L; Calcium av.: 21 mg/L; Magnesium av.: 11 mg/L; Total Hardness as CaCO3 av.: 100 mg/L, Sulphate av.: 39 mg/L; Chloride av.: 92 mg/L; Sodium av.: 51 mg/L
Water additions: 8 gm Calcium Chloride, 4 gm Calcium Sulphate,(to mash only) 
8 Kg Maris Otter (Bairds)
2 Kg Vienna (Gladfield)
1 Kg Golden Naked Oats (Simpsons)
0.5 Kg Dark Crystal (Gladfield)
0.3 Kg Acidulated Malt (Weyermann)
Mashed @ 70 C single infusion
100 gm Hallertau Pacific 6.1% a/a @ 90 mins
30 gm Hallertau Pacific 6.1% a/a @ 30 mins
34 gm Hallertau Pacific 6.1% a/a @ 5 mins
50L in fermenter

Based on my complete water profile and the above recipe and salt additions, Brewers Friend predicted a pH of 5.28
Predicted OG 1058 (for eff. of 80%)

Actual OG 1061 @ 50L

So the test conducted was that the grains were mashed without the salts or acidulated malt to begin with and left for 5 mins.
Initial pH was 5.47
The above salts were added and mixed and again 5 min wait.
pH was 5.33
Then the acidulated malt was added, mixed and 5 min wait
pH was 5.17

Sparge water was not adjusted with acids and was pH 6.92
End runnings were pH 5.71
Post boil pH 5.19

pH tester is accurate to 0.01, 2 point calibrated and temp. compensated. All tests done at room temp. (measured 20-24C)

I ended up with a 98.2 % efficiency(calculated by Homebrewing.com)(Brewers friend calculated 91% eff). Yes I questioned this too as I normally get 80-85%, but I can't argue with a calculator now can I. The 50L was actually 54L, but due to a new addition to the boil kettle I had a little problem and lost 4 L on the floor :unsure: when I had to tip and pour because the pick up tube got clogged up completely :huh: h34r:. Back to the drawing board on the brew kettle, but the mash efficiency and quality is what I'm talking about here :super: )

Not that I'm that scientific at all, but it does go to show that playing with water chemistry does benefit a mash (and the resultant beer).


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

mtb said:


> Anyone read Czech?
> http://www.pvk.cz/res/archive/1735/175703.pdf?seek=1478266829


No, but I read chemistry.


Chloride = 21.6 mg/l

Sulphate = 46.2

Sodium = 12.4

Calcium = 40.0

pH = 7.69


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Jack of all biers said:


> I ended up with a 98.2 % efficiency(calculated by Homebrewing.com)(Brewers friend calculated 91% eff). Yes I questioned this too


I'd trust the Brewer's Friend calculator, its results are far closer to my manual calculations than say Beersmith is (I haven't used HB.com). Beersmith routinely put my old rig over 100% when Brewer's Friend had it at around 96%.


----------



## MrTwalky

Water chemistry is vital in my opinion. It's the only way you will be able to nail a certain style or clone. I've had some success using the Beersmith water profile calculations. Canberra has soft water which is excellent for Pilsners, and there are no chloramines that contribute a phenolic character. Just remember to treat all your brewing water, not just the mash. I've had good results.

Haven't tried it yet but I reckon chalk would dissolve under pressure. Try using a Keg King carb cap and 1L water and see what happens.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

MrTwalky said:


> Haven't tried it yet but I reckon chalk would dissolve under pressure. Try using a Keg King carb cap and 1L water and see what happens.


It will slightly increase the solubility, from three tenths of FA to about six tenths.

Solubility of CaCO3 is a complex equilibrium

CaCO3 <-> Ca2+ + CO32-, CO32- + H+ <-> HCO3- , HCO3- + H+ <-> H2CO3 , H2CO3 <-> 2H+ +CO2(g)

Increasing the concentration of CO2 in solution shifts each of these equilibria but the equilibrium constants are small, eg KCaCO3 (the governing constant for the first equilibrium in the chain) is 10-8.3,so you can't push it very far.


----------



## mtb

MrTwalky said:


> Canberra has soft water which is excellent for Pilsners, and there are no chloramines that contribute a phenolic character


We have no chloramines but I'm pretty sure we have chlorine. I use campden tablets / boil my water just to be sure.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I'd trust the Brewer's Friend calculator, its results are far closer to my manual calculations than say Beersmith is (I haven't used HB.com). Beersmith routinely put my old rig over 100% when Brewer's Friend had it at around 96%.


Yes the BF is far more detailed and only a recent discovery for me. The HB.com is very basic and I've only used it a few times until the last brew. It's good to know that the BF calculator is similar to your manual calc.s. I prefer the pencil and paper and was using a manual eff. calc from Vicbrew 2002 Almanac until I found that it was way under what HB.com was giving me (like 65% as opposed to 80%). I was happy with the low efficiencies (as the beer was good), but as I was mostly using a recipe book that calc. at 80% eff. I was wondering how I kept hitting the target gravities with 65% or lower. Then the HB.com calc. was discovered and I found my eff. were around the 80-85% mark the whole time (although the BF would put me more in the 75-80% mark).

The Vicbrew calc.; % extract efficiency = Gravity x Volume / (4 x Weight of grain) 
Gravity is minus 1000 or for 1048 = 48]
Volume is pre-boil in Litres
Weight is in kilograms

It was only meant as an estimation, but given how out I have found it to be it is worse than worthless as it has led to many frustrating attempts to fix a problem that did not exist. As you can see it does not take into account the individual types of grain or their individual extract efficiency.

What are your manual calc.s?

EDIT - Off topic re the eff. calc.s. Sorry, but it does go to show that by looking at water chemistry for ways to improve the brew, eff. can also be significantly improved. My normal salt additions were clearly not correct to get the right pH for pale beers and the BF calculators have set me straight. 

2nd EDIT - and I forgot to put in my first post above that 3.65 ml of a 8 mg/ml Zinc sulphate solution was added to the HLT (73L), uping the Zinc content of the water from an average of 0.0046 mg/L to about 0.02 mg/L (thanks to MHB for advice). Whilst I don't expect the Zinc to have helped lift the efficiency too much, the co-enzyme should at least help the mash enzymes pump out a better quality wort (will help the yeast no end too). Also 2 mg/L Ascorbic acid added to HLT post boil to remove residual Chloramine [only to be sure] (thanks to Lyrebird and Martin Brungard for setting the record straight on the correct amounts of Ascorbic to add, (~2.5-3.5 mg/L)


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

The manual calc is simply

Efficiency = wort mass x oP / Σ (malt mass * extract FGDB * (1 - moisture))


----------



## Adr_0

MrTwalky said:


> Haven't tried it yet but I reckon chalk would dissolve under pressure. Try using a Keg King carb cap and 1L water and see what happens.


I'm trying to understand if there is any value in residual (bi)carbonate and alkalinity in dark roasty beers. 

The key assumption here - in this question - is that enough is in the mash to balance acidic malts to an appropriate pH, then ADDITIONAL chalk is added at the end of the boil. 

All the resources focus on mash pH, or purely on chloride/sulphate/sodium as flavour/texture modifiers, but none mention if chalk - or calcium hydroxide, or sodium bicarb - is something advantageous to add to dark beers to modify flavour/texture.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Jack of all biers said:


> I ended up with a 98.2 % efficiency(calculated by Homebrewing.com)(Brewers friend calculated 91% eff). Yes I questioned this too as I normally get 80-85%, but I can't argue with a calculator now can I.


My apologies, my calc. eff, with BF was actually 97.71% not 91%. I was just data entering my brew into my log and double checked and a nice surprise came my way. So it looks like HB.com is not that far off after all. I must admit though, even though I know my measurements are accurate (hydro calibrated, volume measurements also calibrated recently) I am still skeptical of an efficiency of 97.71%. I'm wondering if the good guys at Beer Belly gave me an extra weight of grains than what I ordered as the weight of grains is the only thing I didn't check. Though they have never been wrong before and it is not in their interest to give me more than ordered, perhaps a mistake happened. Oh, well I'll never know, but will put this down to the best eff. ever had.

EDIT - :kooi: :beerbang: :super:


----------



## Jack of all biers

Adr_0 said:


> I'm trying to understand if there is any value in residual (bi)carbonate and alkalinity in dark roasty beers.
> 
> The key assumption here - in this question - is that enough is in the mash to balance acidic malts to an appropriate pH, then ADDITIONAL chalk is added at the end of the boil.
> 
> All the resources focus on mash pH, or purely on chloride/sulphate/sodium as flavour/texture modifiers, but none mention if chalk - or calcium hydroxide, or sodium bicarb - is something advantageous to add to dark beers to modify flavour/texture.


Adro, 

I'm not an expert, but I'd confidently say that by adding calc. hydroxide at boil you would not be achieving any mouth feel or flavour benefits (unless you are lacking in Calcium, which I'd doubt). It would only increase pH that might (if you added a sh*t load) help with adding caramel flavours and colour, but then the pH would be too high (into the alkaline territory) for the yeasties to get it down to their preferred environmental pH so they would struggle (and your beer would suffer).

I would say that sodium bicarb would help with maltiness flavour perceptions because of the added sodium, but I'm not sure the bicarb would add any flavour difference.

Given your previous posts, I'm thinking you are either theorizing about a slight increase in pH in the beer having an improving effect on any dark malt harshness? or you have found something somewhere that talks about it? I would think that it probably comes to balance in the mash as opposed to adding any carbonates to the kettle to change the flavour or mouthfeel profile of dark beers. My stouts and schwarzbiers all tend to be very balanced with no harshness from the dark malt and my average water profile is posted above. I don't cold steep or add the dark grains last minute (they get 90 min mash everytime) nor have I ever added chalk etc to the mash or the boil.

Did you have a reference for your query that we can look at?


----------



## manticle

Adr_0 said:


> I'm trying to understand if there is any value in residual (bi)carbonate and alkalinity in dark roasty beers.
> 
> The key assumption here - in this question - is that enough is in the mash to balance acidic malts to an appropriate pH, then ADDITIONAL chalk is added at the end of the boil.
> 
> All the resources focus on mash pH, or purely on chloride/sulphate/sodium as flavour/texture modifiers, but none mention if chalk - or calcium hydroxide, or sodium bicarb - is something advantageous to add to dark beers to modify flavour/texture.



My understanding is that it is purely pH. My limited experience is that surplus carbonate or bicarbonate in beer generally tastes.. well...........................chalky.

Unpleasant and one reason I prefer other methods of pH adjustment in dark beers.
Best way to see is probably to just add a tad to a glass of stout.


----------



## fungrel

manticle said:


> My understanding is that it is purely pH. My limited experience is that surplus carbonate or bicarbonate in beer generally tastes.. well...........................chalky.
> 
> Unpleasant and one reason I prefer other methods of pH adjustment in dark beers.
> Best way to see is probably to just add a tad to a glass of stout.


It is always preferable to use water that has a higher starting pH, so all you do is add acid to bring the pH into correct range. If you start from a position where the pH is on the low side before adding salts, you will have to add more hardness in the form of carbonates to raise pH to the ideal mash range, and therefore give the beer an overly chalky taste in the process.


----------



## Adr_0

Thanks Jack and manticle - that was my suspicion (that if the pH is right to start with, the problems should largely to away).

Thanks everyone for your patience. 

Now to brew...


----------



## Jack of all biers

Adr_0 said:


> For my water here - very moderate across all minerals/ions - I ended up adding just under 12g of CaSO4 to an APA, which gave a theoretical mineral profile of:
> 32.0 Sodium (mg/l)
> 206.3 Sulfate (mg/l)
> 39.0 Chloride (mg/l)
> 130.5 Bicarbonate (mg/l)
> 
> Admittedly the base malt was 50% pils, but even with an FG of 1014 the beer was extremely dry and had quite a sharp bitterness. I initially wondered if I needed more (bi)carbonate, but my understanding of this is that:
> - it wouldn't dissolve in a pale mash very well, at pH 5.4
> - anything carrying over into the beer would come out of suspension
> 
> So is my answer to the above actually chloride?


No worries Adro,

Just going over your posts again, is 130.5 bicarbonate from your local water report? If so, I'd suggest you will never need to add chalk or other carbonate to get any benefits carbonates bring to a beer. It will also leave your mash pH a little high unless you use acid/acidulated malt/a reasonable amount of dark malts. You could reduce some of the bicarb by boiling your water before use and in the cooling some will precipitate out. Rack your water off to another container and then add your salts. Or you could more easily combine 50/50 distilled/rain water to your mains.

Also, regarding some of the points re adding calcium sulphate or of adding sodium chloride. As long as you are sensible with your additions of sodium chloride (don't use iodised salt as the iodine is not good for the yeast) you can add that to your boil also to add sodium and chloride, but your sodium is already reasonable at 32 mg/L. This is also a reason, I wouldn't add sodium bicarb to your water (two reasons really, as both your sodium and bicarb are at more than high enough levels for a good malty dark beer). 

What is your calcium content of your water? If high and you don't want to add more by way of Calcium sulphate, but still want to up your sulphate level, you can add Magnesium sulphate to your boil, though 10-30 mg/L is the range you want for Magnesium and getting beyond that can have consequences for the Calcium content and therefore the yeast. So check your Magnesium content of your water before going crazy with that.

My advice, to get your dark or pale beers more balanced, is to get onto Brewers Friend or Bru'n water online and do some experimenting with the recipes where you have found the beer to have ended up harsh/not to taste. Put your water profile in and go from there. By changing the ingredients online you can see what effect it will have on the pH and different flavour ion ratios. You will therefore be able to change the flavour profiles of your beers all without having to brew a single drop. When you do brew, you will then can be confident the resulting beer will be how you planned it. If it's then not to taste, you will know that you may not like chloride forward/low pH etc profiles.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Jack of all biers said:


> No worries Adro,
> 
> Just going over your posts again, is 130.5 bicarbonate from your local water report? If so, I'd suggest you will never need to add chalk or other carbonate to get any benefits carbonates bring to a beer. It will also leave your mash pH a little high unless you use acid/acidulated malt/a reasonable amount of dark malts. You could reduce some of the bicarb by boiling your water before use and in the cooling some will precipitate out. Rack your water off to another container and then add your salts. Or you could more easily combine 50/50 distilled/rain water to your mains.
> 
> Also, regarding some of the points re adding calcium sulphate or of adding sodium chloride. As long as you are sensible with your additions of sodium chloride (don't use iodised salt as the iodine is not good for the yeast) you can add that to your boil also to add sodium and chloride, but your sodium is already reasonable at 32 mg/L. This is also a reason, I wouldn't add sodium bicarb to your water (two reasons really, as both your sodium and bicarb are at more than high enough levels for a good malty dark beer).
> 
> What is your calcium content of your water? If high and you don't want to add more by way of Calcium sulphate, but still want to up your sulphate level, you can add Magnesium sulphate to your boil, though 10-30 mg/L is the range you want for Magnesium and getting beyond that can have consequences for the Calcium content and therefore the yeast. So check your Magnesium content of your water before going crazy with that.
> 
> My advice, to get your dark or pale beers more balanced, is to get onto Brewers Friend or Bru'n water online and do some experimenting with the recipes where you have found the beer to have ended up harsh/not to taste. Put your water profile in and go from there. By changing the ingredients online you can see what effect it will have on the pH and different flavour ion ratios. You will therefore be able to change the flavour profiles of your beers all without having to brew a single drop. When you do brew, you will then can be confident the resulting beer will be how you planned it. If it's then not to taste, you will know that you may not like chloride forward/low pH etc profiles.


Yeah I didnt see that, 130.5 bicarbonate is high.

Adro whats your Calcium and Magnesium?

And whats your Residual Alkalinity (RA)?

I agree with Jack, unless your calcium and magnesium are high (which I doubt from your sulphate and chloride numbers) you probably never need to worry about adding more bicarbonate, and actually may be in fact at too high a pH, hence the harsh flavour (from tannin extraction from the grain in the mash and sparge, and harsh bitterness from boiling hops at a high pH).

I think you may have this ass about.

Whats you calcium and magnesium and well try and start from there.


----------



## manticle

manticle said:


> Carnonate/bicarbonate won't help pale beer. If anything, I'd look at reducing what you already have.


Just want to point out that I made this post a few days ago, pointing out a reduction, rather than an increase in bicarbonate levels might be more appropriate.

Pointing it out because we all need a pat on the head sometimes, even if it comes from within.


----------



## mtb

What I really need to know is, should I be increasing my carbonates? Why hasn't anyone answered this?


----------



## MHB

No you shouldn't.
Personally I cant see how anyone would ever need to unless they were brewing a stout with exceptionally high amounts of Dark/Roast grain (say >20%)
Mind you Shaun Sherlock who makes Stout as well or better than anyone else I know loves Chalk - so I might be totally wrong. 
Mark


----------



## Jack of all biers

manticle said:


> Just want to point out that I made this post a few days ago, pointing out a reduction, rather than an increase in bicarbonate levels might be more appropriate.
> 
> Pointing it out because we all need a pat on the head sometimes, even if it comes from within.


A belated well done you. B) I think we can put the missing of your comment to 'the trees from the forest' effect.


----------



## Jack of all biers

mtb said:


> What I really need to know is, should I be increasing my carbonates? Why hasn't anyone answered this?


Not sure if you are joking, but the simple answer is, what are your carbonate levels to begin with? (if you have posted this in one of the earlier 4 pages I apologise)


----------



## mtb

I was trying to agitate manticle :lol:


----------



## manticle

The two spambots I just banned agitate me more.


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## Jack of all biers

I thought it seemed a bridge too far , but you capital city folk are different :icon_drool2: ..... Nah just joking  ..... or am I :huh:


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Jack of all biers said:


> I thought it seemed a bridge too far , but you capital city folk are different :icon_drool2: ..... Nah just joking  ..... or am I :huh:


Your from Adelaide, your special Jack...


----------



## Jaded and Bitter




----------



## Meddo

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I'd trust the Brewer's Friend calculator, its results are far closer to my manual calculations than say Beersmith is (I haven't used HB.com). Beersmith routinely put my old rig over 100% when Brewer's Friend had it at around 96%.


I've been getting a lot of errors in calculations from the BF recipe builder and brew sessions, I'd recommend sanity-checking everything before trusting it (sounds like you're already reconciling but others may not be). I don't want to derail the thread so I won't expand more here but users should be a bit careful and check against first principles if unsure.


----------



## Mattress

MrTwalky said:


> Water chemistry is vital in my opinion. It's the only way you will be able to nail a certain style or clone.


But some of us are just brewing beer because we enjoy it.


----------



## razz

Just got the full version of Brunwater to use. Got it setup and look forward to my next brew, it took a bit of fiddling with the data but now that is done I can save the settings. easy peasy.


----------



## fungrel

Mattress said:


> But some of us are just brewing beer because we enjoy it.


Everyone is different. Some prefer not to get so involved in the the science and that's okay by me. I'm one of those that believe water chemistry is extremely important if you want to make the best beer you can, but if you are into the hobby for different reasons, then all good too.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

fungrel said:


> Everyone is different. Some prefer not to get so involved in the the science and that's okay by me. I'm one of those that believe water chemistry is extremely important if you want to make the best beer you can, but if you are into the hobby for different reasons, then all good too.


It does help improve your beer = improve enjoyment

Thats why I do it.


----------



## TimT

I need to get into this too. I will try and read the 'Water' book sometime, but is there a handy-dandy link online relevant to Melbourne water sources and the brewing salts that should be added? It would be an excellent guide for my brewing next year.


----------



## mtb

TimT said:


> I need to get into this too. I will try and read the 'Water' book sometime, but is there a handy-dandy link online relevant to Melbourne water sources and the brewing salts that should be added? It would be an excellent guide for my brewing next year.


Google is your friend. https://www.melbournewater.com.au/waterdata/drinkingwaterqualitydata/pages/drinking-water-quality.aspx
Plug in your water profile to Bru'n Water (Google that too) and you can use the tool to build yourself a water profile, including specific additions of minerals to modify your strike water, that matches the beer you're brewing. Use acids etc also, to get to the necessary pH, if need be.


----------



## TimT

Ha, thanks. 

No for my next trick I'm going to have to really wrap my head around what salt does what and why. For that I think I'll need a book or two....


----------



## mtb

Table salt (NaCI) adds Sodium and a little Chloride. I only know that from dicking about with Bru'n Water so the more educated of the masses are welcome to correct me.


----------



## Rocker1986

To put it simply, in regard to flavour at least, chloride accentuates the malt flavours and sulphate accentuates the hops. So basically if your chloride is higher than your sulphate, then the beer will generally end up more malty, and vice versa. That's where certain profiles suit certain beer styles, for example water higher in sulphate than chloride is good for hoppy ales.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Get some calcium chloride and calcium sulphate (gypsum) and lactic acid from Grain and Grape.

Get some baking soda from the supermarket.

Read the water book.

Get a decent PH meter.

your in business.


----------



## Adr_0

manticle said:


> Just want to point out that I made this post a few days ago, pointing out a reduction, rather than an increase in bicarbonate levels might be more appropriate.
> Pointing it out because we all need a pat on the head sometimes, even if it comes from within.





Jaded and Bitter said:


> Yeah I didnt see that, 130.5 bicarbonate is high.
> 
> Adro whats your Calcium and Magnesium?
> 
> And whats your Residual Alkalinity (RA)?
> 
> I agree with Jack, unless your calcium and magnesium are high (which I doubt from your sulphate and chloride numbers) you probably never need to worry about adding more bicarbonate, and actually may be in fact at too high a pH, hence the harsh flavour (from tannin extraction from the grain in the mash and sparge, and harsh bitterness from boiling hops at a high pH).
> 
> I think you may have this ass about.
> 
> Whats you calcium and magnesium and well try and start from there.


Hi gents, 

In hijacking the the thread I did pose two questions, muddied into one:
-are carbonates needed to balance sulphate in pale ales, given a recent sharp beer >> no, the answer is chloride is needed, as I had a 5:1 ratio. Sweet. 

-do carbonates contribute anything flavour/texture wise to dark beers >> again the answer is no, assuming that the acid in roast malt is buffered adequately to remain in the right pH. 

I do not have it ass-about, and wouldn't dream of adding chalk to pale beers. I have heard of people doing this with stouts - MHB did know someone who did as well - but the real question here is what was their RA like, and what is mine like?

Given all the above, I will leave the chalk to my daughter to draw with, and bin it with respect to any brewing usage - given my water has more than enough alkalinenessism. 

I'm brewing a brown Ale in the next few days and will not be adding chalk... I may add some CaCl2 to the mash and some NaCl to the boil though 

For reference I'm use Kai's spreadsheet... Better/worse than Bru'un water?


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Adr_0 said:


> Hi gents,
> 
> In hijacking the the thread I did pose two questions, muddied into one:
> -are carbonates needed to balance sulphate in pale ales, given a recent sharp beer >> no, the answer is chloride is needed, as I had a 5:1 ratio. Sweet.
> 
> -do carbonates contribute anything flavour/texture wise to dark beers >> again the answer is no, assuming that the acid in roast malt is buffered adequately to remain in the right pH.
> 
> I do not have it ass-about, and wouldn't dream of adding chalk to pale beers. I have heard of people doing this with stouts - MHB did know someone who did as well - but the real question here is what was their RA like, and what is mine like?
> 
> Given all the above, I will leave the chalk to my daughter to draw with, and bin it with respect to any brewing usage - given my water has more than enough alkalinenessism.
> 
> I'm brewing a brown Ale in the next few days and will not be adding chalk... I may add some CaCl2 to the mash and some NaCl to the boil though
> 
> For reference I'm use Kai's spreadsheet... Better/worse than Bru'un water?


Im glad thats sorted out.


----------



## manticle

Not sure about the spreadsheet but I have a lot of respect for braukaiser and the research undertaken to provide well explained information.


----------



## MHB

The brewer I was referring to was voted best craft brewer in Australia twice! At the time he was brewing in all Ro-Mo water so was building up his water from scratch.
Although I personally cant see how Carbonate is a good thing to add to brewing water, like I said I could be wrong, especially as some of the best stout I have ever tasted has a fair amount added.
I think it is a pH dependant decision, if your pH was under 5.1-5.2 it would be worth considering, otherwise I would give it a miss.
Mark


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Coodgee said:


> I had a cheap pH meter that just wasn't accurate enough when i first started measuring mash pH. I measured pH 5.0 on a mid strength beer so i added a teaspoon of baking soda which gave me a measurement of ph 5.4. Turned out astringent as hell. When i got a better pH meter and measured the mash pH of a subsequent brew of the same recipe it was pH 5.7 before any salt additions!
> 
> The lesson is unless you invest in a decent pH meter and store and calibrate it correctly you could end up doing more harm than good



Hey Coogee, what did your crappy meter read in water? I ask because it's probably the same one I have (laughs)


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