# No Chill and whirlpool



## mongey (23/10/18)

heya

Have done 5 batches of BIAB No Chill . I realized last brew that I don't let sit long enough after whirl pooling . I whirlpool by hand with my mash paddle and let sit for about 5 minutes till the spinning pretty much stops , then cube. I get a decent cone of hops but there is def allot of proteins and stuff still in the wort 

Last brew I took my hydro sample before cubing and then cubed then got distracted , then went to take reading . allot of the usual trub went into the cube and when I went back to test my sample it was crystal clear .then it dawned on me if I left the whirpool longer Id drop allot more .I know , some things you need to learn for yourself. 

with no chill I read you want the wort hot enough to sanitise the cube .If i let sit for 20 after the boil stops to clear will it still be hot enough to santize ?


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## altone (23/10/18)

mongey said:


> heya
> 
> Have done 5 batches of BIAB No Chill . I realized last brew that I don't let sit long enough after whirl pooling . I whirlpool by hand with my mash paddle and let sit for about 5 minutes till the spinning pretty much stops , then cube. I get a decent cone of hops but there is def allot of proteins and stuff still in the wort
> 
> ...



Lot's of variables there ... ambient temp, heat loss from your equipment etc.
However if after 20 mins it's still above 80C (mine would be) then that's still hot enough to dump in the clean cube.

Pasteurization can be done at far lower temps. I think the commercial beer pasteurization is 70C for 15 seconds off the top of my head.
But warmer and longer is far safer for us beer cowboys.


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## mongey (23/10/18)

altone said:


> Lot's of variables there ... ambient temp, heat loss from your equipment etc.
> However if after 20 mins it's still above 80C (mine would be) then that's still hot enough to dump in the clean cube.
> 
> Pasteurization can be done at far lower temps. I think the commercial beer pasteurization is 70C for 15 seconds off the top of my head.
> But warmer and longer is far safer for us beer cowboys.


sweet

yeah it would be over 80 no worries I'd say .I can keep my eye on it as my pot has a dial thermometer 

next beer I'll extend the wait


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## Schikitar (23/10/18)

I don't transfer until wort hits 80 as I like to cube hop, so my transfer is based on temp, not time (which varies). Even then I can still see a heap of proteins flying around in the wort and I've never had a great compact cone at the bottom of my kettle. I usually dump the last 3-4L from the kettle to a jug and crash chill that, then the next day I pour the top off of that into the fermenter along with the wort from the cube, I do have to make a temp calculation though so the combined volume is at pitch temp..


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (23/10/18)

The lower you let the temp go, the greater the sanitation risk. I have had cubes go bad (but they were kinda filthy).

Ideally you want to chill to 80C and whirlpool with your hopstand. Leave it settle for 20-30 mins after whirlpool has stopped , then transfer clear wort still at 80C to clean cubes.


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## bevan (23/10/18)

I find if you put a lid on after you whirlpool it seems to settle a lot better than without. I leave it for 20 min and by then it’s about 85 deg when I cube it. Since doing the lid thing my wort has been very clear in the cube.


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## Rocker1986 (24/10/18)

I don't whirlpool my wort at all, I just turn the urn off and let it sit there for 25 minutes then transfer to the cube. Still leaves almost all of the kettle trub behind. I use cube hops in pale ales but I'm not worried about getting it to 80 degrees first, it works regardless for my tastes. I measured the wort once after a 20 minute rest post flameout and it was still sitting at 92 degrees and dropped 4 degrees during the transfer, so I'm happy to leave it the extra 5 minutes for some more settling. 

That said, I wouldn't mind getting an elbow pickup tube for the ball valve and trying a whirlpool again, but I'll wait until we move house to do anymore brew system upgrades. I need a way to hoist the hop spider out after the flameout hops have steeped for 5-10 minutes to facilitate doing a whirlpool and it's just too much of a PITA in this house.


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## bbqzookeeper (24/10/18)

Huh, I've always just transferred within a few minutes after draining my hop spider, maybe 3 mins after turning off the element (Probably since I began no chill after getting an infection).

Other than the physical nature of trub taking up space, is there any significant downside? Should I be leaving for 20mins?


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## Rocker1986 (24/10/18)

Basically, hot break isn't all that good for the beer. I don't mind a small amount making its way to the cube (almost impossible to avoid really without a filter or something) but I try to prevent it as much as I can. It can cause a few different problems but premature staling of the beer is probably the one I want to avoid the most. MHB probably has some links to scientific articles about it, if he posts them I'll have to bloody bookmark them this time. 

I did a couple of batches last year without any kettle finings (unintentionally), and the difference was stark. The wort didn't clear properly even with the 25 minute stand post boil, and stayed that way all the way through the fermentation and sitting in a keg on tap for 2 months. It was a regularly brewed recipe and also didn't taste as good as other batches of it. A crap outcome all round, really.


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## nvs-brews (24/10/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> I did a couple of batches last year without any kettle finings (unintentionally), and the difference was stark. The wort didn't clear properly even with the 25 minute stand post boil, and stayed that way all the way through the fermentation and sitting in a keg on tap for 2 months. It was a regularly brewed recipe and also didn't taste as good as other batches of it. A crap outcome all round, really.



So you avoid getting proteins in the cube for clarity/appearance reasons? And that alone? 
Just interested to know as I usually try get as much into the cube as possible.. Volume is more so my preference.. Wort/beer clarity is something I generally dont give a shit about.

I've been doing no-chill pretty much constantly for at least the last 18 or so months.. IPA's to stout.. whatever really.

Back to the whirlpool part.. I guess i work it a bit differently sometimes...no whirlpool..no bittering additions into the kettle.. A lot of times if i want something that has noticeable hop presence I cube hop only and do a large dry hop. I get enough bitterness from that and the perceived bitterness from a large dry hop to satisfy me.
I like to get the wort into the cube hot as ****... Im open to try new things so maybe a whirlpool/hop stand @ 80 is something I should give a go! Just clean the cube with boiling water JUST prior I guess


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## bbqzookeeper (24/10/18)

nvs-brews said:


> ...Just interested to know as I usually try get as much into the cube as possible.. Volume is more so my preference..
> 
> ...I like to get the wort into the cube hot as ****...



This is generally my thinking, but with gelatine fining and cold crashing, I get very clear beer. The only issues I've ever had with taste have been with one infection (second brew) and with dry hopping. I can never get dry hopping right and maybe these proteins are impacting it. I don't really want to add 20 mins to my brew day, but could try it once.


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## Rocker1986 (25/10/18)

If you read the first part of my post and the part about the beer not tasting good either, you wouldn't have even asked that question. It's not about beer clarity alone, it's about beer quality overall. It's not about leaving all the proteins out, just the ones that aren't wanted. Why go and boil the wort for an hour or more, one of the main reasons for which is separating the wort and break material, just to go and chuck it all in anyway? I'd rather have a litre less and get a great beer out of it than just go for volume alone without any regard to whether or not it will be compromised. You could easily get more volume and leave the shit behind by simply increasing the amount brewed.

I can get clear beer with finings during the cold crash as well, I usually use a combination of isinglass and Polyclar, although they didn't even help in the instances where the kettle finings were left out. I had a Czech pilsner that looked like a ******* NEIPA and tasted like bland shit by comparison to how it normally turns out when it's brewed properly. 

Found a couple of articles;
http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/493/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/215984266_Wort_boiling_today - read the hot break formation section.


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## bbqzookeeper (25/10/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> If you read the first part of my post and the part about the beer not tasting good either, you wouldn't have even asked that question. It's not about beer clarity alone, it's about beer quality overall.



I wasn't too concerned with how my beer has tasted thus far, but I'm getting the indication that maybe it could be *better* if I whirlpool'd and let it stand for 20mins.



Rocker1986 said:


> Why go and boil the wort for an hour or more, one of the main reasons for which is separating the wort and break material, just to go and chuck it all in anyway?



I believe we know of the *many* great reasons why one should boil, as mentioned in the articles.
I originally looked into no chill because some wort was infected (due to poor practice) and perhaps I've swung too far in the "must be super hot when it goes in the cube".



Rocker1986 said:


> Found a couple of articles;
> http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/493/
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/215984266_Wort_boiling_today - read the hot break formation section.



These articles have been helpful. Thank you.

Maybe my thinking was: If I use kettle finings + boil and undesirables have turned into a sediment, then it's not 'dissolved' in the wort, even though it's still nearby. Is this good enough?

I have a wort chiller from years ago but cannot hook it up in my garage as I don't have a tap. If I was to extend the ideas presented above completely, I should be chilling the wort to remove both hot and cold break and partially filtering. Maybe I can get a small water tank + pump and recirc.


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## Rocker1986 (25/10/18)

Yes, boiling plus kettle finings nearing the end of the boil (inside 10 minutes) will sediment the crap out - you just have to give it enough time after flameout for it to drop sufficiently [emoji6] 3 minutes won't do it, hence the usual 15-20-25 minute stands. I also no chill in cubes, and hotter is better but as long as it's over about 80-85 degrees then you shouldn't have any issues.


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## mongey (25/10/18)

gonna brew next weekend so am keen to do the wait and see the difference

Ive bottled 4 batches now and the last 3 of my bottled BIAB batches have been really clear in the bottle after cold crash .1st was pretty hazy . But there is allot of crap in bottom of fermenter post cold crash . first long neck i fill I need to change and rinse out the bottle wand 4 or 5 times to get it flowing .

and I have left a long neck or 2 more in the bottom of the fermenter than before I was doing AG due to the crap. so hopefully it helps with both those issues


I'll add that Id say my cube is pretty clean. After emptying it gets filled with sodium perc and sits till the next weekend usually, but at least 24 hours Then rinsed. sprayed with star san very lightly and stored sealed

then before filling I rinse again and another light star san spray.So I reckon a bit lower temp will be no risk


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## Rocker1986 (25/10/18)

Excessive trub in the fermenter is another minor reason why I leave as much shit in the kettle as possible, and also leave as much of it behind in the cube as possible, aside from the other issues that may arise from it being allowed in there. It's just a pain in the arse when it gets too high.

I've been no-chilling for 6 years and never used Starsan on the cubes except once, often times they only ever got thoroughly rinsed with hot tap water after being emptied and soaked in perc occasionally when I noticed them darken a bit. Now I usually employ a perc soaking plus hot water rinse every batch because I get too lazy to faff around rinsing them 50 billion times, then I boil the kettle on brew day during the wort boil and swish the boiling water around inside them before setting them up for the transfer after flameout. Over that 6 year period I had one cube blow up after sitting for a few weeks which I think was due to a dodgy tap/bung seal letting shit in, ironically that one and only time I ever used Starsan in a cube. I've always used the 20-25 minute stand post boil before transfer.


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## Schikitar (25/10/18)

mongey said:


> first long neck i fill I need to change and rinse out the bottle wand 4 or 5 times to get it flowing


You could pop something under front of the fermenter to tilt it away from the tap (this is just after pitching) then the yeast cake forms and settles away from the tap and reduces the crap going into those first couple of bottles. I assume you aren't bulk priming, I used to transfer from primary to a bottling bucket and this process also helped keep the junk out of the bottles (although exposed the beer to oxygen, hence I moved to kegging).



mongey said:


> I'll add that Id say my cube is pretty clean. After emptying it gets filled with sodium perc and sits till the next weekend usually, but at least 24 hours Then rinsed. sprayed with star san very lightly and stored sealed





Rocker1986 said:


> I've been no-chilling for 6 years and never used Starsan on the cubes except once


Hmmmmm, I usually sodium perc mine after use and get them real clean but then I shake and store no-rinse santiser in them (about 3L worth) which I transfer around later for santising other things but hopefully leaving my cube well sanitised as well.. Unnecessary perhaps?


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## mongey (25/10/18)

Schikitar said:


> You could pop something under front of the fermenter to tilt it away from the tap (this is just after pitching) then the yeast cake forms and settles away from the tap and reduces the crap going into those first couple of bottles. I assume you aren't bulk priming, I used to transfer from primary to a bottling bucket and this process also helped keep the junk out of the bottles (although exposed the beer to oxygen, hence I moved to kegging).
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm, I usually sodium perc mine after use and get them real clean but then I shake and store no-rinse santiser in them (about 3L worth) which I transfer around later for santising other things but hopefully leaving my cube well sanitised as well.. Unnecessary perhaps?



That’s a good idea On leaning it back actually. I might give that a go 

Yeah probably over kill on my part but for less than $1 worth of sodium perc I rather overkill.


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## Rocker1986 (25/10/18)

Maybe, I'm not saying don't bother with it, just that I haven't had any issues from not using it.


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## mongey (5/11/18)

So brewed a apa Saturday. Did the 20 Min whirlpool rest and def had allot less proteins and gunk in the cube. Wort was still 95 after 20 min so that was all good. Will be my new standard process.


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## Rocker1986 (5/11/18)

You'll probably find that there will be some trub in the cube when it cools down, I usually have some in there after it cools even if there's none when it initially goes in. I think this cube trub is more like a cold break than hot break though so not too much to worry about. I keep the vast majority of it out of the fermenter too though, mainly because tipping it all in makes the trub level too close to the fermenter tap.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (5/11/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> You'll probably find that there will be some trub in the cube when it cools down, I usually have some in there after it cools even if there's none when it initially goes in. I think this cube trub is more like a cold break than hot break though so not too much to worry about. I keep the vast majority of it out of the fermenter too though, mainly because tipping it all in makes the trub level too close to the fermenter tap.



Yeah I use the cube sedimentation as a secondary trub filter. I think its still hot break, just the very fine stuff that never clumped. I would pour it through a voile (BIAB material) sheet if I could. But mostly I dont want that stuff in the beer to begin with.


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## Twent (13/11/18)

I have a couple of cubes that had washing liquid in them. What’s the best way to clean them?


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