# White Rabbit Dark Ale Clone



## benny_bjc

Hello,

I actually haven't tried White Rabbit Dark Ale but have been keeping my eye open for it and have heard about it and like the sound of it.

I'm sure a few people on here have considered a clone recipe and maybe someone lurking out there has attempted it already!!

I thought I would get the ball rolling and get people inspired to create a clone recipe or at least throw some ideas around regarding ingredients and the recipe.

Meantime I will continue my search for the real thing and have a taste!

Cheers!!


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## Kleiny

Where are you beer 007 somebody may be able to help out on the location of white rabbit.

I had it at a train stop pub in Melb the other day and thought it was a great beer, i have not thought about a clone but i might have a crack now. Just have to remember what flavors where there.


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## benny_bjc

Kleiny said:


> Where are you beer 007 somebody may be able to help out on the location of white rabbit.
> 
> I had it at a train stop pub in Melb the other day and thought it was a great beer, i have not thought about a clone but i might have a crack now. Just have to remember what flavors where there.



I'm in Sydney... I'm pretty sure it isn't available in bottlos up here yet. I know it is on tap in the city somewhere but haven't had the time to get out there.


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## haysie

Have had a few of the Rabbit`s wares, on tap and the good wife has bought a few six packs. I think its very lacking of bitterness and hops, great malt shines thru with a cloying aftertaste, def no beer judge though!!!. Weyermann is the base malt looking at their inventory a few times. I hope they move on from the infancy stage e.g more floorspace for the forklift than they do customers. Really lacks customer floorspace. If you get a chance visit and struggle to get a seat and watch people walk in and walk out straight over the road to Giant Steps to sip on a LCPA on a chair. I did this just last Saturday.
I must get up when they are brewing too investigate "open fermentation"


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## Fatgodzilla

beer007 said:


> I'm in Sydney... I'm pretty sure it isn't available in bottlos up here yet. I know it is on tap in the city somewhere but haven't had the time to get out there.




The Macquarie Hotel put it on tap a few weeks ago - the brewer was up from Vic and we had a brief chat and I scabbed three schooners out of him (thanks mate) .. its a lovely brew. I think he said it had six (or was it seven) malts. I chatted to the Macs brewer (Tim ?) about it and we tried to guess the malts .. two crystals, 2 base malts ale (ale & munich), wheat, oats ? and a dark malt are just a guess. Couldn't determine a hop profile. They want it to be a session beer, so I'm thinking an highly attentive yeast.

It was that good my Tooheys New mates actually ordered it the next day as a first preference.

The WR man also said a lot of trial and error went into it. So my reality says good luck trying to clone the beast. 

Suggest something like a london porter on a lager yeast may go close to an approximation. 

Best of luck !


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## dig

Excellent, a clone thread! I missed this one too Kai.


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## randyrob

Just for a bit of fun i've got this is a cube waiting for some recultured yeast from the bottle to fire.

while the hop bill may not be even close i'll focus on the malt bill first.



hookah smoking caterpillar an interpretation of WRDA

OG 1.052 IBU 30

54.5% Pils
30% Minuch I
5% Caramalt
5% Wheat
3.5% Medium Crystal
1% Chocolate Malt
1% Black Patent

NB @ 60 minutes

Cascade 1g/l @ 5 Minutes


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## Guest Lurker

Hi Rob
I bought a six pack while in Melbourne. Didnt pay real close attention while drinking, but your malt bill looks pretty good. To me a bit more chocolate than 1%, but once you have a taste of that malt bill it will be easier to work out.


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## Cocko

When I was at the brewery, I asked the barmen if he knew what hops they used in white rabbit...

He was pretty reserved but I ended up dragging out of him that they use:

A noble hop for bittering: Hmm..

And TASMANIAN Fuggles [WTF] and then Tasmanian Cascade in the whirlpool...

Sorry, I know it doesn't help, but that is what he said, just passing it on...

Cheers


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## randyrob

Hey Guys,

thanks for the advice and suggestions. As far as the hops go i read this a while back in an article.



> Hull says they are currently using three different types of hop flowers in the hopback Super Alpha and Sticklebract from New Zealand, plus a little bit of Tassie Cascade.



In the bottles i had the hop character was quite reserved but i guess it would be a bit hoppier fresh on tap.

I've been going over my tasting notes and it has more of a toffee/caramel malt flavour than my grain bill will probably provide perhaps a melanodin/crystal/choc combo?

Rob.


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## randyrob

Well the yeast culture had fired on all cylinders





I think for a second bash at the recipe, i'll up the choc as GL suggested and add a percent of brown malt for complexity.

Rob.

WRDA Interpretation 2

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.61
Anticipated OG: 1.050 Plato: 12.36
Anticipated EBC: 35.3
Anticipated IBU: 27.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
58.0 3.25 kg. Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
28.5 1.60 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
5.0 0.28 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
5.0 0.28 kg. JWM Crystal 140 Australia 1.035 145
2.5 0.14 kg. JWM Chocolate Malt Australia 1.032 750
1.0 0.05 kg. TF Brown Malt UK 1.033 200

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 4.80 24.0 60 min.
20.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.80 3.7 5 min.


Yeast
-----
Recultured from WRDA Bottle.


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## hazard

randyrob said:


> Yeast
> -----
> Recultured from WRDA Bottle.



Does anyone know for sure if the yeast in the bottle is the same as the primary yeast? Any idea what strain it might be?


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## Kai

There is definitely more than one base malt and one specialty malt, and the bottling yeast is the same strain as the primary.


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## randyrob

This is the ferment using the re cultured WRDA yeast less than 24 hours after pitching, 
It hasn't gotten above 20*c in a temperature controlled fridge and is extremely vigorous
and has a Huge fruity aroma.

Rob.


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## ausdb

randyrob said:


> View attachment 32525
> 
> 
> This is the ferment using the re cultured WRDA yeast less than 24 hours after pitching,
> It hasn't gotten above 20*c in a temperature controlled fridge and is extremely vigorous
> and has a Huge fruity aroma.
> 
> Rob.


Good to see that border crossing pesky rabbit has been captured and put to good use :icon_cheers:


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## lespaul

was thinking about trying this recipe with this thread
although i dont know how/massively cbf culturing yeast from a bottle (although i have one in the fridge for celebrations tomorrow night, last day of uni ever tomorrow!!!). So i was wondering what yeast i should buy? preferably dry, but i might give a liquid yeast a crack if it sounds worth it.

Cheers


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## lespaul

any thoughts?


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## lespaul

i cant believe nobody can recommend one yeast to use for this beer <_<


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## bum

One of this beer's brewers has stated above that the yeast in the bottle is the same yeast used in primary - you're not gonna get a better tip for what yeast to use than that.


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## manticle

Agreed. Bite the bullet and reculture. It's not hard and you have it from the horse's mouth that that IS the yeast to use.


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## Pennywise

Tried this for the first time tonight. Personally I was quite dissapointed with this beer, I've made better that's for sure.


Re the yeast, +1 on Bum's comments


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## randyrob

I never got around to brewing this again because my fermenting fridge has been tied up and have since had a few pints of this fresh from tap at LC's
To me it was a different beast dominated more so by the hops, hiding the yeast ester and malt backbone where as the bottled version i've had was much more balanced

I'm going to go with this for my next brew :


Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 28.00 Wort Size (L): 28.00
Total Grain (kg): 7.13
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.83
Anticipated EBC: 34.8
Anticipated IBU: 30.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
54.7 3.90 kg. Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
26.6 1.90 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
5.0 0.36 kg. Flaked Oats USA 1.033 4
5.0 0.36 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
5.0 0.36 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 100
2.5 0.18 kg. JWM Chocolate Malt Australia 1.032 750
1.0 0.07 kg. TF Brown Malt UK 1.033 200

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 4.80 5.6 60 min.
25.00 g. Sticklebract Pellet 11.70 9.1 15 min.
25.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.80 6.0 15 min.
25.00 g. Sticklebract Pellet 11.70 5.7 5 min.
25.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.80 3.8 5 min.


Yeast
-----

Recultured from Bottle (WRDA)


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## MaestroMatt

I wanted to bring this clone thread up again as I am really interested in getting some opinions on recipes for this beer.


Any comments or suggestions?


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## Screwtop

Had a couple of these and quite like the beer, very close to one of my house faves. So here is my attempt at a clone, uses a good true top cropper also, guess White Rabbit would need to use something similar seeing as they are open fermenting.

Recipe: White Rabbit Dark Ale Clone

Batch Size: 47.00 L 
Boil Size: 58.63 L
Boil Time: 90
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Estimated Color: 22.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 41.4 IBU
Bitterness Ratio: 0.767
Brewhouse Efficiency: 82.00 %


75.00% Pale Malt, (Joe White) 
12.00% Munich, Dark 
5.00% Carafa II 
3.00% Cara-Pils 
2.50% Crystal (Dark) 
2.50% Crystal (Pale) 
35 IBU Super Alpha (90 min) hops
1g/l Cascade (15 min) hops 
2 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318)e 
1g/l Sticklebract (Flowers) (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops - 

Mash
Water sdjustment 120ppm CaSO4
Mash-in/Saccharification 75 min @ 66.0 C 
Mash Out 10 min @ 77.0 C


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## Jimmeh

This would be my attempt:

Not sure on the colour or the IBU's... might be around 30ibu's?


*White Rabbit Clone*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.052
Colour (SRM): 16.2 (~30 EBC)
Bitterness (IBU): 25

87% Pale Ale Malt
10% Munich I
3% Carafa I malt

0.7 g/l Super Alpha (Leaf) (12% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (Boil)

0.5 g/l Cascade (Leaf,NZ/Tassie) (7.8% Alpha) @ whirlpool
0.5 g/l Stickebract (Leaf) (14% Alpha) @ whirlpool

Single step Infusion at 66C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 18c with Wyeast 1187 - Ringwood Ale OR cultured up bottle yeast


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## randyrob

Hey Jimmeh,

That recipe looks tops, you're probably right simplicity is the key.

Would be keen to do a collaboration brewday of that recipe with ya! 

i'll see if i can borrow Darryn's MOAMT (Mother of All Mash Tuns) 

Rob.

Edit: Thinking about it a bit more i do think it needs a bit of crystal...just for that toffee flavor and hint of sweetness


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## ausdb

This sounds like a brewday project to me!

I don't think Carafa I though, I reckon there is black malt as 3% carafa I you would taste and I don't think it tends to throw a red enough hue myself.

Sounds like a good excuse for us all to drink a six pack to culture up enough yeast


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## sinkas

sixpack each at the breakfast table


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## ledgenko

My take on WRDA - 

White Rabbit Dark ale

3kg Ale 
1.5 kg Munich 1
300gm Crystal
300gm Choc
300gm Wheat
500gm Oats

Hops - Cascade 30gm at 60 mins and 30gm at 10 mins

I adjusted this to use Fuggles and Chinook as well as Cascade but reduced it to 15gm Chinoock and 15gm Cascade at 60 mins and 30gm fuggles at flame out, in addition to an increased amount of Choc, Crystal (dark) and wheat (up to 500gm each) for my last brew and was VERY happy with the results although looked more Porterish and was around the 6.5 - 8% mark (two seperate brews).. 

I have to admit I am a HUGE fan of the WRDA, but the last couple of times I have had it I have found it not quite up to the mark.. Perhaps it was just old stock.. :-0 but will def be trying to salvage enough yeast for a brew from my next six pack... he he

Would appreciate thoughts on the use of these quantities and types of HOPS..

Cheers 

Matt


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## Kai

Jimmeh said:


> This would be my attempt:
> 
> Not sure on the colour or the IBU's... might be around 30ibu's?



That'd be a pretty good guess, though I'd double the colour.

Other thoughts...

- Yes more than a touch of crystal would be appropriate.
- Some relatively heavy hopping in the beer really accentuates what would otherwise be quite a moderate roastiness.
- Culture some yeast up from a 6-pack if you want the brewery strain! Otherwise just choose your favourite English ale yeast.


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## Jimmeh

Hi Kai!

How does this look? I've upped the colour, hops and added some crystal. It doesn't taste particularly sweet to me so it's only a small amount of crystal.

*White Rabbit Clone v2*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.052 (P): 13.0
Colour (SRM): 25.5 (EBC): 50.2
Bitterness (IBU): 30.9 (Tinseth)

81% Pale Ale Malt
10% Munich I
6% Carafa I malt
3% Crystal 60 (domestic?)

0.9 g/l Super Alpha (12% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/l Cascade (7.8% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/l Stickebract (14% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 66C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 18c with cultured bottle yeast.


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


Rob, that would be awesome mate if we can nail this recipe!

Cheers

Jim


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## Barley Belly

Am gunna give Screwy's recipe a lash and see how it comes out

I have changed it a little for my no-chill system:-


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Screwy's White Rabbit Dark Ale
Brewer: Barley Belly
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L 
Boil Size: 28.48 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 46.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.0 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.75 kg MaltEurop Australia Ale (3.5 EBC) Grain 71.4 % 
0.75 kg Munich Dark (Weyermann) (23.0 EBC) Grain 14.3 % 
0.25 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 4.8 % 
0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (1050.0 EBC) Grain 3.8 % 
0.15 kg Crystal Dark (Crisp) (240.0 EBC) Grain 2.9 % 
0.15 kg Crystal Pale (Crisp) (100.0 EBC) Grain 2.9 % 
18.00 gm Super Alpha [13.00%] (40 min) Hops 23.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [7.80%] (5 min) Hops 3.6 IBU 
10.00 gm Sticklebract [13.50%] (0 min) Hops - 
20.00 gm Sticklebract [13.50%] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -


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## The Mexican

You guys are close with the grain bill IMO but I reccon the hops finish with Simcoe or Chinook, & definitely EKG on the bottom end. But I am amazed no one is talking about the big raspberry flavour & aroma of this wonderfull beer. I have been playing with cloning this beer for a couple of weeks now & am getting close using Cascade raspberry syrup in the keg. But we all know the sypup is going to continue fermenting, so pasturising before kegging is the go.
I came across this wonderfully flavoursome beer a few months back when I was visiting Geelong & had my share of them at the Scottish Chieftan Hotel, the draught version was far better than the stubs we get from Dan Murpheys up here in Rockhampton.
If you wish to persue these type of flavoured beers, try a Belview Kriek, quite a bit more over the top fruit wise, but a beer none-the-less.
If you are a trophey hunter, try entering your WR clone in the next comp. It will be a standout in the specialty section amoungst all the chilli beers, mango beers, rauchbiers, roggenbiers, krieks & ginger beers, the judges will thank you........


Yours in brewing real beer
The Mexican


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## Screwtop

The Mexican said:


> I have been playing with cloning this beer for a couple of weeks now & am getting close using Cascade raspberry syrup in the keg. But we all know the sypup is going to continue fermenting, so pasturising before kegging is the go.
> 
> If you wish to persue these type of flavoured beers, try a Belview Kriek, quite a bit more over the top fruit wise, but a beer none-the-less.
> If you are a trophey hunter, try entering your WR clone in the next comp. It will be a standout in the specialty section amoungst all the chilli beers, mango beers, rauchbiers, roggenbiers, krieks & ginger beers, the judges will thank you........
> 
> 
> Yours in brewing real beer
> The Mexican




You are kidding right :blink: 


So that's the secret ingredient Kai :lol:


Screwy


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## argon

Heres my attempt at a WRDA Clone came out quite nice got big hit of chocolate on the nose was very surprised great ruby highlights when held up to the light Could have added more hops for more aroma. Probably should have French pressed some Cascade and added to keg. Overall, not exactly a clone but very sessionable for a dark ale

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Right Wabbit
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 38.00 L
Boil Size: 42.40 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 49.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 24.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.30 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.9 EBC) Grain 56.99 %
2.60 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 27.96 %
0.70 kg Chocolate Malt (689.5 EBC) Grain 7.53 %
0.35 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (19.7 EBC) Grain 3.76 %
0.35 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.76 %
66.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 19.3 IBU
58.00 gm Cascade [7.80 %] (5 min) Hops 5.5 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 9.30 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 24.27 L of water at 70 C 66.0 C


Notes:
------


----------------------

oops almost forgot the rasberry cordial :lol:


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## goomboogo

The Mexican said:


> You guys are close with the grain bill IMO but I reccon the hops finish with Simcoe or Chinook, & definitely EKG on the bottom end. But I am amazed no one is talking about the big raspberry flavour & aroma of this wonderfull beer. I have been playing with cloning this beer for a couple of weeks now & am getting close using Cascade raspberry syrup in the keg. But we all know the sypup is going to continue fermenting, so pasturising before kegging is the go.
> I came across this wonderfully flavoursome beer a few months back when I was visiting Geelong & had my share of them at the Scottish Chieftan Hotel, the draught version was far better than the stubs we get from Dan Murpheys up here in Rockhampton.
> If you wish to persue these type of flavoured beers, try a Belview Kriek, quite a bit more over the top fruit wise, but a beer none-the-less.
> If you are a trophey hunter, try entering your WR clone in the next comp. It will be a standout in the specialty section amoungst all the chilli beers, mango beers, rauchbiers, roggenbiers, krieks & ginger beers, the judges will thank you........
> 
> 
> Yours in brewing real beer
> The Mexican



I can't find your recipe in the database. It sounds like you've nailed the White Rabbit.


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## Kai

I reckon most of those clone recipes would hit reasonably close to the mark. So long as it tastes like what you aim for then it's a job well done, whether you use different hops, malt or raspberries.

For a good fresh rabbit though I'd suggest a little dry hopping, and maybe a variety you wouldn't expect


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## Barley Belly

Kai said:


> I reckon most of those clone recipes would hit reasonably close to the mark. So long as it tastes like what you aim for then it's a job well done, whether you use different hops, malt or raspberries.
> 
> For a good fresh rabbit though I'd suggest a little dry hopping, and maybe a variety you wouldn't expect



Yeh I got a little pepper, not sure of what hop is used to give it off though


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## Oatlands Brewer

Any ideas on a extract recipe guys...


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## The Mexican

Screwtop said:


> You are kidding right :blink:
> 
> 
> So that's the secret ingredient Kai :lol:
> 
> 
> Screwy




Nup..... not kidding old mate,,, pour gently & have a look in the bottom of a WR stubbie, you don't get that colour from malt or hops.....


Regards
The Mexican


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## dans6401

Kai said:


> For a good fresh rabbit though I'd suggest a little dry hopping, and maybe a variety you wouldn't expect


 So apart from the raspberry, anyone have any idea as to what the 'secret' dry hop may be? Personally i would'nt expect P.O.R! :lol:


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## Screwtop

dans6401 said:


> So apart from the raspberry, anyone have any idea as to what the 'secret' dry hop may be? Personally i would'nt expect P.O.R! :lol:




I'm going to use NZ Sticklebract Flowers very late

Screwy


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## drsmurto

Have been collecting the yeast from a 6 pack of the rabbit to have a go at making an american brown ale. Available at PALS if any of the locals have been searching for it.

Loving the ideas on this thread, plenty of good suggestions and since i haven't brewed many ABAs I'll be using them as a starting point.

Nice to see Kai giving his opinions of the recipe, its a fantastic beer that i can see myself buying and brewing more of. Good job! :beerbang:


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## Thommo

I haven't used them, but I vaguely remember someone posting they got a blackcurrent type flavour from Brambling Cross Hops, not sure if anyone wants to experiment with these if they're getting a rasberry type flavour? Just some food for thought.

This beer was the guest beer on at Little Creatures a few weeks ago when I was in Freo and I really enjoyed it. All the way to WA for a VIC beer. Wish we could get more stuff like this in Sydney more often.

Cheers,
Thommos.


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## The Mexican

The Mexican said:


> Nup..... not kidding old mate,,, pour gently & have a look in the bottom of a WR stubbie, you don't get that colour from malt or hops.....
> 
> 
> Regards
> The Mexican




Sorry guys, a big correction to my comment on fruit flavoured beers,Belvue Kriek, should have read Belvue Frambroisen, the Krieks are nothing like what I was trying to explain, matter of fact I don't know many brewers that will go back for seconds with a Kriek, lets leave this style to the Belgians, they have it down pat, & if you think you are going to brew this style well, good luck. I don't want that yeast anywhere near my brewery.
I have experienced Brambling Cross hops in the early days & that is not the flavour I am picking up in WRDA. Flavour tests I have been trying are knocking on the door, just got to nail that late hop, & the Sticklebract suggestion will be well worth trying next.

Regards
The Mexican.


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## drsmurto

The Mexican said:


> Sorry guys, a big correction to my comment on fruit flavoured beers,Belvue Kriek, should have read Belvue Frambroisen, the Krieks are nothing like what I was trying to explain, matter of fact I don't know many brewers that will go back for seconds with a Kriek, lets leave this style to the Belgians, they have it down pat, & if you think you are going to brew this style well, good luck. I don't want that yeast anywhere near my brewery.
> I have experienced Brambling Cross hops in the early days & that is not the flavour I am picking up in WRDA. Flavour tests I have been trying are knocking on the door, just got to nail that late hop, & the Sticklebract suggestion will be well worth trying next.
> 
> Regards
> The Mexican.



Ok, I'll bite.

Are you seriously suggesting that white rabbit dark ale is a fruit beer? Why would they not market it as such? 

The yeast left in the bottom of my bottles of WRDA looked like normal yeast, nothing red about it. You didnt cut your mouth whilst drinking did you?


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## manticle

Going to go up the road and buy a stubbie or two just to find this raspberry.

Also I like the beer.


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## tazman1967

I have got my Clone in... very nice Krausen forming. I used 7 grains and the recultured yeast. IMHO I think that it is a Belgian Yeast, but thats just me...
Cheers
PS.... Just loved having to drink a sixer of these to harvest the yeast...damm
Great beer


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## dig

I doubt very much that there is fruit in the beer. Disappointed to hear that Kai is dry hopping, but that's a phase that many young brewers go through and I'm confident that he'll grow out of it. If you guys are tasting berry-like fruit flavours, I'd put my money of Pacific Gem as the mystery hop.


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## Screwtop

dig said:


> I doubt very much that there is fruit in the beer. Disappointed to hear that Kai is dry hopping, but that's a phase that many young brewers go through and I'm confident that he'll grow out of it. If you guys are tasting berry-like fruit flavours, I'd put my money of Pacific Gem as the mystery hop.




Dig, recently tried this beer again reading the fruit comments. Love the beer, the aroma is berry/blackcurrant, but I don't datect any fruit flavour.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## A3k

Hey guys,
Kinda off topic, but what does the WRDA yeast bring?

Im about to make a DR Smurtos Golden Ale soon and was tossing up between the usual US05 and 1469 (as i have a starter almost ready to go of 1469).
But reading this thread, and the fact that i also have a carton of white rabit at home, has made me think its a good time to use its yeast.

I could just make a WRDA clone instead I guess.

Cheers,
Al


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## A3k

Anyone have any feedback on the character of the White Rabbit yeast? 

Cheers,
Al


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## Simon from Hargreaves Hill

dig said:


> I doubt very much that there is fruit in the beer. Disappointed to hear that Kai is dry hopping, but that's a phase that many young brewers go through and I'm confident that he'll grow out of it.



I still proudly wear a dry hopped nappy, and sadly no longer refer to myself as a young brewer. And I know that Kai is up to his ears in nappies - Kai, give me a call and drop past for a beer when time allows. 

Dean, hope you're well. How's Canadia?

Best regards

Simon

(just reread the first sentence. Sorry all for the appalling visuals. Nobody needs to imagine a dry hopped nappy)


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## bconnery

Simon from Hargreaves Hill said:


> I still proudly wear a dry hopped nappy, and sadly no longer refer to myself as a young brewer. And I know that Kai is up to his ears in nappies - Kai, give me a call and drop past for a beer when time allows.
> 
> Dean, hope you're well. How's Canadia?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Simon
> 
> (just reread the first sentence. Sorry all for the appalling visuals. Nobody needs to imagine a dry hopped nappy)



I suppose it might help with the smell. 
Or help the brewer baby sleep?


----------



## manticle

dig said:


> I doubt very much that there is fruit in the beer. Disappointed to hear that Kai is dry hopping, but that's a phase that many young brewers go through and I'm confident that he'll grow out of it. If you guys are tasting berry-like fruit flavours, I'd put my money of Pacific Gem as the mystery hop.



I get the impression you know more about beer than I have hairs on my entire body but dry hopping is a technique that has been utilised for years all over the world by some of the world's best breweries in some of the world's best beers. Even Orval is dry hopped as far as I know

Your comment is therefore mildly confusing.

Had 1 the other night and buggered if I can find the raspberries either in the beer or in the yeast.


----------



## dans6401

+1 about dry hopping. Is this an infintile thing to do? Or more personal taste / preference?
In my limited experience it seems to work quite well, but hey i might be wrong being a young brewer. Maybe i'll grow out of it.
Any more ideas with a recipe. (Not knocking the ones already posted) Infact made one up the other night. Just seems this has gone a bit OT after such a great start. 
The recultured WR yeast fires up like you would'nt believe. I used the cling wrap method (not as perverted as it sounds) and never bothered with sticking a hole in it before, after this one might reconsider.


----------



## dig

Yeast strain selection was based on the following criteria: 1. had to be a genuine top fermenting, top cropping ale strain that would work mechanically in an open fermenter (ie, not 1056), 2. Had to be a strain that didn't mute hop characters excessively as hops were always going to be an important aspect of this beer and many ales strains dumb hops down too much, 3. Wanted a yeast that produced subtle but pleasant esters that would integrate harmoniously with hop and malt flavours, and 4. needed to be a strain that didn't flock too heavily and require agitation in the fermenter. Tick, tick, tick, tick, job done.


----------



## dig

Hi Simon

Really liking Canada. This week is Vancouver Craft Beer Week and I'm attending various functions and dinners every day. Judged the BC homebrew comp last week and the standard was really high. 1st place went to a lambic, 2nd a wood aged RIS and 3rd a Belgian strong. Very delicious.

Brewing three days per week at Howe Sound in Squamish, had a phone interview yesterday with a recruitment mob in Boston looking for Head Brewer here in Vancouver, and also doing a little bit of consultancy having started a company called Bru-Rite Consulting. Yeah, so things are working out. Residency, social insurance and drivers licence all sorted out, Liz is happy to be home and I have a season pass for the bike park in Whistler. Summer is just around the corner. Good.


----------



## dig

Vancouver mayor Gregor Robertson taps the Vancouver Craft Beer Week grand opening cask


----------



## dig

One more post to completely flood this thread: http://bit.ly/cjlHi8


----------



## jbirbeck

dig said:


> I doubt very much that there is fruit in the beer. Disappointed to hear that Kai is dry hopping, but that's a phase that many young brewers go through and I'm confident that he'll grow out of it. If you guys are tasting berry-like fruit flavours, I'd put my money of Pacific Gem as the mystery hop.



Not had the beer but I get a big whack of berry like flavours from Pacific Gem so it was my first thought too...not fruit.


----------



## LLoyd

dig said:


> Yeast strain selection was based on the following criteria: 1. had to be a genuine top fermenting, top cropping ale strain that would work mechanically in an open fermenter (ie, not 1056), 2. Had to be a strain that didn't mute hop characters excessively as hops were always going to be an important aspect of this beer and many ales strains dumb hops down too much, 3. Wanted a yeast that produced subtle but pleasant esters that would integrate harmoniously with hop and malt flavours, and 4. needed to be a strain that didn't flock too heavily and require agitation in the fermenter. Tick, tick, tick, tick, job done.



I'd vote for 1187.. But I nearly always vote for 1187...


----------



## dabre4

Hey Guys. 

Anyone had a crack at brewing this one yet? I'm keen to give it a go, but thought I might wait for some feedback from some results on the suggested recipes of this thread.


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Hey peeps,

Planning to do a 26L extract batch of this on the weekend, just after some feedback on the grains and hops in my recipe:

2.5kg LDME
500g Sugar
500g Munich II
250g Carafoam
150g Carafa I
70g Chinese Cascade @60 [24 IBU]
15g Fuggles @20 [2 IBU]
15g US Cascade @0 [0 IBU]
26L
100ml Re-cultured White Rabbit Dark Ale yeast

OG 1.052
FG 1.014
IBU 26
EBC 26
ABV 5.2%

Boil is in a 5L pot

Cheers :beer:


----------



## dabre4

Doog said:


> Hey Guys.
> 
> Anyone had a crack at brewing this one yet? I'm keen to give it a go, but thought I might wait for some feedback from some results on the suggested recipes of this thread.



Bump


----------



## Acasta

also interested in feedback from some of the above recipes.


----------



## dabre4

G'day all,

I have had some luck and got some info out of one of the brewers at White Rabbit! Apparently the malts are Pale, Munich for the base, and light, medium and dark crystal (medium and dark are Simpson's malt), and a "slight bit" of carafa special to help get the colour. Hops are Kettle, hopback and slight dry hoping in the open fermenters. Hops are Cluster, Pacifica, and Tasmanian Cascade. Apparently WRDA will be on the shelf at 4.9% soon because they found this is be more rounded on the palate, and it will have "fresh hops" whatever that means. Sounds like something to look forward to.

He also mentioned that we should be seeing White Rabbit White Ale in the shops within the month!

Anyway, it looks like Screwtop nearly had the Malt base spot on. The hops are interesting, I don't know where I can get Pacifica from, but apparently a combination of Mittelfruher and Amarilo will give a similar profile. In this light I've attached my attempt at a clone. What are your thoughts?

White Rabbit Clone
11-C Northern English Brown Ale

Size: 24 L
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 167.34 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.050 (1.040 - 1.052)
Terminal Gravity: 1.013 (1.008 - 1.013)
Color: 21.96 (12.0 - 22.0)
Alcohol: 4.95% (4.2% - 5.4%)
Bitterness: 28.8 (20.0 - 30.0)

Ingredients:
4.1 kg Traditional Malt (Joe White)
0.7 kg Dark Munich Malt (Joe White)
0.29 kg Carafa Special TYPE II
0.2 kg Light Crystal (Joe White)
0.15 kg Crystal Malt
0.15 kg Dark Crystal
23.0 g Cluster (7.9%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
10.0 g Hallertau Mittelfruh (6.3%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
10.0 g Amarillo (8.6%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
15.0 g Cascade (7.8%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min
10.0 g Cascade (Dry Hop) (7.8%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
1.0 ea WYeast 1318 London Ale III

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 F
Source Water: 60.0 F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash in - Liquor: 14.58 L; Strike: 76.35 C; Target: 69 C
01:03:00 Rest - Rest: 60 min; Final: 67.1 C
01:04:00 Infusion Step - Water: 4.71 L; Temperature: 98.6 C; Target: 74 C
01:14:00 Rest - Rest: 10 min; Final: 74.0 C
02:14:00 Sparge - Sparge Volume: 23.32 L; Sparge Temperature: 74 C; Runoff: 23.32 L


----------



## dabre4

Oh, and I forgot to mention, no rasberries!!!!


----------



## hazard

Did the brewers also tell you to use Wyeast 1318?


----------



## Duff

Finally got to try this beer recently as Dan's at Smithfield in Cairns had some in.

Great beer Kai. Will wait until someone has a tried receipe before brewing.

Cheers.


----------



## Screwtop

This is what's happening this week

Batch Size: 47.00 L 
Boil Size: 58.63 L
Boil Time: 90
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Estimated Color: 22.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 41.4 IBU
Bitterness Ratio: 0.767
Brewhouse Efficiency: 82.00 %


75.00% Pale Malt, (Joe White) 
12.00% Munich, Dark 
5.00% Carafa II 
3.00% Cara-Pils 
2.50% Crystal - Simpsons (Dark) 
2.50% Crystal - Simpsons (Pale) 
35 IBU Super Alpha (90 min) hops
1g/l Cascade (15 min) hops 
2 Whitelabs WLP022 
1g/l Sticklebract (Flowers) (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops - 

Mash
Water adjustment 120ppm CaSO4
Mash-in/Saccharification 75 min @ 66.0 C 
Mash Out 10 min @ 77.0 C


----------



## dabre4

hazard said:


> Did the brewers also tell you to use Wyeast 1318?



He just said they used a traditional English yeast strain which they sorced. If you want to get it spot on you'd be best to struggle your way through a 6 pack and culture the yeast yourself.


----------



## MattC

Just to add to the discussion re ingredients..

I was in Melb for the Beer and Brewer Expo and went to a Beer tasting masterclass hosted by Roger Protz. One of the beers that we tasted was the White Rabbit Dark Ale. Roger stated that the ingredients were Pale, Munich and Crystal malts, hops were super alpha and american cascade in kettle, hop back were tas cascade, NZ hallertau and NZ green bullet and the last which he listed separately (im guessing dry hopped) were cascade (TAS?) and Cluster.

No mention of yeast..

Cheers


----------



## Acasta

Good to see this thread but up and people trying recipes!
Hope someone can nail this one!


----------



## dabre4

MattC said:


> Just to add to the discussion re ingredients..
> 
> I was in Melb for the Beer and Brewer Expo and went to a Beer tasting masterclass hosted by Roger Protz. One of the beers that we tasted was the White Rabbit Dark Ale. Roger stated that the ingredients were Pale, Munich and Crystal malts, hops were super alpha and american cascade in kettle, hop back were tas cascade, NZ hallertau and NZ green bullet and the last which he listed separately (im guessing dry hopped) were cascade (TAS?) and Cluster.
> 
> No mention of yeast..
> 
> Cheers



Thats interesting. I wonder why he said there were Pacifica hops in there, or is this another name for one of the other hops? (I don't know too much about Pacifica). Anyone want to have a crack at a hop schedule? It sure does have a hell of a lot more hop varieties than I thought! I'm assuming you could get similar hopback results by adding the hops to the kettle after its cooled down a little, anyone had any experience with this?


----------



## MattC

After all this talk of White Rabbit I was pleased to see IGA liquor stock it so I grabbed a 6 pack. We have really shiite bottlos up here in nrthn NSW. We may have a slight improvement in the shape of a rumoured Dan Murphy's coming soon but we will wait and see.

Anyway, just wondered if anyone else apart from randyrob had cultured this yeast from the bottle. just wanted to know their technique as there appears to be much much less yeast than in a bottle of coopers, which I have cultured before.

How many stubbies did you use the yeast from to get the starter cranking?


----------



## Acasta

So has anyone got anything to say about their crafted beers? I really wanna try making one of these, but i have no idea what to go for!


----------



## beerbrewer76543

My extract attempt is in the fermenter still after 3 weeks... I've been shaking up the fermenters every couple of days to get it to drop down to 1.014. It's getting there slowly. Hopefully I can bottle it this weekend then it's a long 4 week wait for bottle conditioning. I think it will come out a cracker after it mellows out a bit!


----------



## Screwtop

Screwtop said:


> This is what's happening this week
> 
> Batch Size: 47.00 L
> Boil Size: 58.63 L
> Boil Time: 90
> Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
> Estimated Color: 22.1 SRM
> Estimated IBU: 41.4 IBU
> Bitterness Ratio: 0.767
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 82.00 %
> 
> 
> 75.00% Pale Malt, (Joe White)
> 12.00% Munich, Dark
> 5.00% Carafa II
> 3.00% Cara-Pils
> 2.50% Crystal - Simpsons (Dark)
> 2.50% Crystal - Simpsons (Pale)
> 35 IBU Super Alpha (90 min) hops
> 1g/l Cascade (15 min) hops
> 2 Whitelabs WLP022
> 1g/l Sticklebract (Flowers) (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
> 
> Mash
> Water adjustment 120ppm CaSO4
> Mash-in/Saccharification 75 min @ 66.0 C
> Mash Out 10 min @ 77.0 C




No can do, have to wait for yeast, only available around Feb, unless someone has some to share. Maybe a good reason to drink a sixer :lol:

Screwy


----------



## Fatgodzilla

Screwtop said:


> No can do, have to wait for yeast, only available around Feb, unless someone has some to share. Maybe a good reason to drink a sixer :lol:
> 
> Screwy



Whitelabs WLP022 - is that the Essex Ale. Not played with that baby, what you hoping it will bring to the brew ? Unless I missed something I was assuming the yeast was a Ringwood - commercial brewers don't sem to stay from the mainstream .... do they?


----------



## bum

They're using open fermenters so this is already something of a departure for a modern brewery, innit?

As is not making a pale or a pilsner...


----------



## Screwtop

Fatgodzilla said:


> Whitelabs WLP022 - is that the Essex Ale. Not played with that baby, what you hoping it will bring to the brew ? Unless I missed something I was assuming the yeast was a Ringwood - commercial brewers don't sem to stay from the mainstream .... do they?




Sure somebody said they use a real top cropping ale yeast, so Essex is what I'm going to use.

Screwy


----------



## dr K

Essex is a huge top-cropper but really needs to be beaten down/agitated/roused pretty regularly. It comes from a now defunct brewery (google it) that, from an extremely reliable source, made crap beer but had great yeast.
Of course its not the only top cropping yeast left, Wyeast Yorkshire and 1967 spring to mind, as of course the Ringwood strains and no doubt others I have not had the pleasure of using. Oddly, and this is a personal observation, I found the Wyeast American Wheat to be the cleanest (harvestwise) of all that I have used.

K


----------



## rude

What about nottingham yeast ?


----------



## Screwtop

dr K said:


> Essex is a huge top-cropper but really needs to be beaten down/agitated/roused pretty regularly. It comes from a now defunct brewery (google it) that, from an extremely reliable source, made crap beer but had great yeast.
> Of course its not the only top cropping yeast left, Wyeast Yorkshire and 1967 spring to mind, as of course the Ringwood strains and no doubt others I have not had the pleasure of using. Oddly, and this is a personal observation, I found the Wyeast American Wheat to be the cleanest (harvestwise) of all that I have used.
> 
> K




Interesting K, have never used it. Have you used it for other than wheat beers?

Screwy


----------



## moonshine

I now have a starter bubbleing away nicely. It took a bit of tlc though (there isn't much sedament in the bottles) have been feeding and growing it for about a week and a half (it's on its second batch of LDME liquid lunch)
here's a pic (sory bout the poor quality)


)


----------



## dig

Re-read the yeast selection criteria. Does 022 fit the bill?


----------



## hazard

dr K said:


> Essex is a huge top-cropper but really needs to be beaten down/agitated/roused pretty regularly. It comes from a now defunct brewery (google it) that, from an extremely reliable source, made crap beer but had great yeast.
> K


Well you don't need to google it, its already on AHB

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...;showarticle=73

According to this article (which appears to be a copy of info at Mr Malty) its from Ridley's brewery. Never heard of it before. can't comment on their beer. There is no Wyeast equivalent listed, do you know if there is one? Of course if I really want it I will buy a six pack, just for the free beer.


----------



## Phoney

moonshine said:


> I now have a starter bubbleing away nicely. It took a bit of tlc though (there isn't much sedament in the bottles) have been feeding and growing it for about a week and a half (it's on its second batch of LDME liquid lunch)
> here's a pic (sory bout the poor quality)
> View attachment 38932
> )



Good one moonshine! How many WR stubbies did you need to culture that out of?


----------



## moonshine

Cheers phoneyhuh. i had to drink 6 (oh the tuff tuff things we have to do for the sake of home-brewing)
It didn't really look like i had much when i started, only a few grains of solid stuff an a couple of mils of cloudy liquid. i rinsed the bottles out with cooled boiled water.
really liking the look of this yeast flocculates really really well. have an us05 next to it (and i know thats not a fair comparison) but the you bump the table and the 05 sample is all cloudy whereas the WRDA is a solid mat after a couple of days. will take a photo of it tomorrow (i just stirred it up) then i'll pour off the liquid and feed again (i'm thinking whiskey with the liquid? hate to waste alcohol)


----------



## Sydneybrewer

BUMP

anyone think they have the yeast strain down pat,

i want to put down a clone of this before i head overseas, i was thinking of an all aussie malt and nz hop version but no idea about the yeast, stuck between the wyeast strains;

west yorkshire ale
ringwood ale
whitebread ale

*Recipe Overview *
Wort Volume Before Boil: 25.00 l Wort Volume After Boil: 23.00 l 
Volume Transferred: 23.00 l Water Added To Fermenter: 0.00 l 
Volume At Pitching: 23.00 l Volume Of Finished Beer: 19.00 l 
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG Expected OG: 1.050 SG 
Expected FG: 1.014 SG Apparent Attenuation: 71.0 % 
Expected ABV: 4.7 % Expected ABW: 3.7 % 
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 38.6 IBU Expected Color (using Morey): 26.6 SRM 
BU:GU ratio: 0.77 Approx Color: 
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 % 
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins 
Fermentation Temperature: 18 degC 

*Fermentables *
Ingredient Amount % MCU When 
Australian Traditional Ale Malt 3.000 kg 54.5 % 3.7 In Mash/Steeped 
Australian Dark Munich 1.000 kg 18.2 % 4.5 In Mash/Steeped 
Australian Caramalt 0.900 kg 16.4 % 9.1 In Mash/Steeped 
Australian Chocolate Malt 0.300 kg 5.5 % 41.4 In Mash/Steeped 
Australian Crystal 140 0.300 kg 5.5 % 8.1 In Mash/Steeped 

*Hops *
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When 
NZ Pacific Gem 14.0 % 20 g 29.1 Loose Whole Hops 60 Min From End 
NZ Cascade 8.0 % 20 g 8.3 Loose Whole Hops 15 Min From End 
NZ Pacific Gem 14.0 % 20 g 1.3 Loose Whole Hops 1 Min From End 

*Yeast ???*

*Mash Schedule *
Mash Type: Full Mash 
Schedule Name: Single Step Infusion (66C/151F) 
Step Type Temperature Duration 
Rest at 66 degC 60

edit: typo


----------



## moonshine

heres some before and after a shake photos of yeast the first two are WRDA the next two are us05


----------



## manticle

Sydneybrewer said:


> BUMP
> 
> anyone think they have the yeast strain down pat,



Yes. It's the yeast at the bottom of the white rabbit bottles.

I wouldn't stuff around with WYs and Whites unless you particularly set yourself the challenge of discovering which one (in which case get a high powered microscope).

The beer from WR is probably fresh enough, unpasteurised and unfiltered and one of the brewers has specifically stated it is the same strain in the bottle that's used for primary.


----------



## BottleBitch

manticle said:


> Yes. It's the yeast at the bottom of the white rabbit bottles.
> 
> I wouldn't stuff around with WYs and Whites unless you particularly set yourself the challenge of discovering which one (in which case get a high powered microscope).
> 
> The beer from WR is probably fresh enough, unpasteurised and unfiltered and one of the brewers has specifically stated it is the same strain in the bottle that's used for primary.




I agree with Manticle, get it out of the bottle. Look at these sums, White labs or Wyeast cost about $15 bucks even if you could get the strain, which I'm pretty sure you can not. A six pack of WRDA is give or take a few bucks $20, culture the yeast up from a few bottles and you get to drink the six pack, its win, win.

Cheers 

Brett


----------



## Sydneybrewer

doesn't seem to much sediment in the bottom of the bottles though, the six pack i have has a tiny film of yeast on the bottom less then a mil thick i would say, so i am guessing it would be a much longer and drawn out process then culturing coopers yeast.


----------



## manticle

Even a tiny bit is enough to reculture - just requires a bit of planning and patience and you KNOW you have the right strain. That's how people reculture from slants.

Why not give the same grist a go with one of the English WYs you have and one with recultured RDA yeast (side by side) and see?

Moonshine seems to have done alright (pics above)


----------



## Sydneybrewer

just another query... would any of you guys ferment this or have fermented this with no covering over the fermenter to make it more authentic, i was thinking about it but the risk of infection worries me.


----------



## manticle

I think the sanitary control at the brewery itself would probably be much greater than you can achieve at home.


----------



## Sydneybrewer

and thanks manticle looks like i will have to try and have a go at culturing this the same method as i do the coopers and see how i go, i am impressed with moonshines efforts, i actually have a six pack of the rabbit in the fridge atm waiting to be drunk during the panthers win over manly tonight so why not have a crack i guess. if i am not successful then i think i will go with the west yorkshire ale.


----------



## Kai

Sydneybrewer said:


> doesn't seem to much sediment in the bottom of the bottles though, the six pack i have has a tiny film of yeast on the bottom less then a mil thick i would say, so i am guessing it would be a much longer and drawn out process then culturing coopers yeast.



There's heaps of yeast in there, over 0.5 million cells per mL!

No need to leave your fermenter 'open', at home the fermentation dynamics in such a small vessel do not matter and when I've used this yeast in a 60L fermenter I have just treated it as any normal ferment.

But, do treat it like a good English ale yeast should be treated. Aerate well and give it regular rousing during fermentation.


----------



## Sydneybrewer

Kai said:


> There's heaps of yeast in there, over 0.5 million cells per mL!
> 
> No need to leave your fermenter 'open', at home the fermentation dynamics in such a small vessel do not matter and when I've used this yeast in a 60L fermenter I have just treated it as any normal ferment.
> 
> But, do treat it like a good English ale yeast should be treated. Aerate well and give it regular rousing during fermentation.



Thanks for the tips, very much apreciated i have the starter from the 6 pack on the go atm, heres hopping she turns out and i make something half as good as the original :icon_cheers:


----------



## moonshine

> But, do treat it like a good English ale yeast should be treated. Aerate well and give it regular rousing during fermentation.


+1 to that it really sticks together, very high floc. so i think i'll deffo be giving it some agitation during fermentation so as to avoid chance of stuck ferment.


----------



## beerbrewer76543

moonshine said:


> +1 to that it really sticks together, very high floc. so i think i'll deffo be giving it some agitation during fermentation so as to avoid chance of stuck ferment.




+2 Mine got stuck and ended up taking an extra week as I had to keep arousing the yeast every couple of day to get the last few points knocked off. It finally went in the bottle yesterday so in a couple of weeks I'll post back with a comparison with the bottled stuff


----------



## theredone

just did a forum search for both mountain goat dark and white rabbit, after spending a few nights at the archive in bris and sampling many many australian boutique beers ive decided i want to go for a nice dark. cant find a clone for the mountain goat dark but was very interested in the extract version of white rabbit posted by l_bomb. cant wait to hear the results but i may get impatient and put it down soon to c for myself anyways


----------



## benno1973

L_Bomb said:


> ...as I had to keep arousing the yeast every couple of day...



That just sounds wrong... <_< 

What did it taste like out of the fermenter?


----------



## beerbrewer76543

It tasted good, although I possibly used too much carafa in search of colour and the FG was a bit high at 1.014 

It was rather hoppy too but that will fade out in 2-4 weeks 

If I did it again I'd use less LDME and mash more malt to get a lower FG

I'll post back in a couple of weeks with a verdict :beer:


----------



## theredone

L_Bomb said:


> It tasted good, although I possibly used too much carafa in search of colour and the FG was a bit high at 1.014
> 
> It was rather hoppy too but that will fade out in 2-4 weeks
> 
> If I did it again I'd use less LDME and mash more malt to get a lower FG
> 
> I'll post back in a couple of weeks with a verdict :beer:



so before i go and make the same mistakes u do.... what are you looking at changeing? maybe half kg less of malt? and half kg more of grains? or maybe a little less? also are u thinking of increasing each type of spec grain of just one inparticular?

cheers mate


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Hey theredone,

I do partial mashes and for this one I did a double batch. I am limited by my 10L boil pot so I can only mash about 2kg of grain to be in the 1.040 ballpark (1.7kg for 1.040 I think...)

Anyway, if I were to do a single batch of it again I'd do the following:

2.0kg LDME
500g Sugar
1.0kg Pale Ale Malt
500g Munich II
100g Carafa III
50g Chinese Cascade 5.6%AA @60 [22 IBU]
15g Fuggles 4.0%AA @20 [3 IBU]
15g US Cascade 7.2%AA @0 [0 IBU]
26L
1000ml Starter of White Rabbit Dark Ale yeast

Mashed in 5L water at 65*C for 90 mins... Not that it would make much difference to the FG... 

I'd add the Carafa at sparge too just to see what effects this has on the flavour

10L boil size

Any advise from anyone else?

Cheers :beer:


----------



## theredone

I'd add the Carafa at sparge too just to see what effects this has on the flavour


cheers mate
didnt realize u do grains seperately. i would have just put them all in together and steeped for 40 mins. mmmmm maybe this recipe not for me then  

EDIT: oh and your 0min add of cascade is that flameout or dryhop?


----------



## manticle

It's only the caraf he's talking about adding in late. Adding dark roasted grains in late can [supposedly - never done it myself] give you the same or similar colour with less roastiness or harshness.


----------



## mika

The carafa's de-husked anyway, so don't think adding it late will save you any roastiness or whatever.
Adding it late you're probably going to need a lot more than if you mashed it for the whole time, advantage being I guess you can sprinkle it in till you like the colour, but then I find the boil and fermentation changes it by huge amounts anyway.
Using roast barley or some such, I can see a point in adding it late.... but if you're doing that, why didn't you just buy carafa ?


----------



## Kai

L_Bomb said:


> Hey theredone,
> 
> I do partial mashes and for this one I did a double batch. I am limited by my 10L boil pot so I can only mash about 2kg of grain to be in the 1.040 ballpark (1.7kg for 1.040 I think...)
> 
> Anyway, if I were to do a single batch of it again I'd do the following:
> 
> 2.0kg LDME
> 500g Sugar
> 1.0kg Pale Ale Malt
> 500g Munich II
> 100g Carafa III
> 50g Chinese Cascade 5.6%AA @60 [22 IBU]
> 15g Fuggles 4.0%AA @20 [3 IBU]
> 15g US Cascade 7.2%AA @0 [0 IBU]
> 26L
> 1000ml Starter of White Rabbit Dark Ale yeast
> 
> Mashed in 5L water at 65*C for 90 mins... Not that it would make much difference to the FG...
> 
> I'd add the Carafa at sparge too just to see what effects this has on the flavour
> 
> 10L boil size
> 
> Any advise from anyone else?
> 
> Cheers :beer:



I'd suggest some crystal malts in there too, a small but not inconsiderable part of the colour contribution is from a mix of crystals.


----------



## Acasta

Kai said:


> I'd suggest some crystal malts in there too, a small but not inconsiderable part of the colour contribution is from a mix of crystals.



Have you tried either an AG or Partial?
How much or what Crystals?


----------



## manticle

mika said:


> The carafa's de-husked anyway, so don't think adding it late will save you any roastiness or whatever.
> Adding it late you're probably going to need a lot more than if you mashed it for the whole time, advantage being I guess you can sprinkle it in till you like the colour, but then I find the boil and fermentation changes it by huge amounts anyway.
> Using roast barley or some such, I can see a point in adding it late.... but if you're doing that, why didn't you just buy carafa ?



I agree. Just explaining why people sometimes suggest dark grains added separately and late. Carafa special, for all intents and purposes has already been manufactured to avoid this.



Acasta said:


> Have you tried either an AG or Partial?
> How much or what Crystals?




Kai is one of the WR brewers which is why his advice in this thread is worth taking.


----------



## Acasta

Whaaaaaaaaaat? Tell him i love him.
Can he give us secret recipes?


----------



## manticle

He's given lots of hints.
Check through the thread. You may have to do all the loving on your own though. I have responsibilities elsewhere.


----------



## Acasta

haha roger, I will look for Kai's tips like im looking for the rabbit itself!


----------



## theredone

sorry for the silly question, but.... l_bomb's extract version cannot be done with simple steeping? does it need to be a mash? also, steeping is more or less soaking cracked grains in hot water? and mashing is steeping ground grains? sparging is just washing through the grain sock hot water? this is the conclusion ive come to from wiki.

if so i think its probly possible for me to do a mash. ive got a 10l pot and a med size grain bag. but ive so far only done small amounts of grain steeping.


----------



## manticle

OT:

Mashing and steeping may have a similar basic process for the end user (ie put cracked grain in hot water) but there is a vital difference and that is what is occurring inside the grain.

temp with mashing is fairly crucial, temp with steeping is not (you can even steep cold).

Steeping is designed to extract flavour and colour from grains that have already had their unfermentable starches converted to fermentable sugar (and often then burnt off).

Mashing occurs when enzymes inside grain with unconverted starches are catalysed. Various enzymes do various things - the most important one in beer making converts the starch to sugar and only happens within a certain temperature range. Yes you can do a minimash in your pot but have a bit more of a read - the difference is worth understanding.


----------



## theredone

alright i might not try minimashes just yet.
thus for an easy extract should i:
1tin pale
1 tin dark
500g dex

steep some dark and maybe some carafa?

same hop schedule

thoughts? 
EDIT: punched those numbers into ianh's spreadsheet with .2 of dark and .2 of munich 2 and no carafa that gives me an ebc of 32.2. thats about what im aiming for yeah?


----------



## earle

Fans of this beer might be interested to know they have an employment vacancy.

Link


----------



## Acasta

So its been a while everything has proberly been brewed and sampled, how has everyone's White Rabbit clones turned out?


----------



## Phoney

Ive only just bottled mine...so far so good!


EDIT: Using Screwtop's recipe from page 4, but with recultured WR yeast and Green Bullet instead of Super Alpha for bittering.


----------



## hazard

I noticed in the poaper this morning that Dan is selling six packs of the real thing for $16.90 - so if you are planning to make a clone, now is a good time to buy 6 bottles of yeast and get 6 bottles of beer for free!

matilda bay also has a new beer on sale there.


----------



## DU99

1st choice also sells


----------



## Acasta

anyone tried Doog's recipe from page 4?
Looks pretty good to me.


----------



## mb83

Hey Guys,

Two quick questions:

How do you rouse the yeast during fermentation?
Has anyone used the WR yeast in a different style of beer yet?

Cheers,

Michael


----------



## DU99

gee ..i just like the stuff


----------



## dans6401

mb83 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Two quick questions:
> 
> How do you rouse the yeast during fermentation?
> Has anyone used the WR yeast in a different style of beer yet?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael


I did an extract version of Screwtops recipe (post 24). Came out very nice. Gave a bottle to a mate to try, and he said he thought it tasted like white rabbit.  
The yeast is very easy to reculture, and i found no need to re-rouse. I make a 1 litre starter on a stir plate, aerate the wort well, and ferment at a stable temp. 
I just split a batch of a belgian style ale, in one i used 1214, while the other white rabbit. Probably not the best style to do a comparison but will be interesting to taste the result, and see how much difference the yeast does make.
Only been fermenting for a week, so a little way off still.


----------



## earle

dans6401 said:


> I did an extract version of Screwtops recipe (post 24). Came out very nice. Gave a bottle to a mate to try, and he said he thought it tasted like white rabbit.
> The yeast is very easy to reculture, and i found no need to re-rouse. I make a 1 litre starter on a stir plate, aerate the wort well, and ferment at a stable temp.
> I just split a batch of a belgian style ale, in one i used 1214, while the other white rabbit. Probably not the best style to do a comparison but will be interesting to taste the result, and see how much difference the yeast does make.
> Only been fermenting for a week, so a little way off still.


Hi Dans

Do you mind posting your extract recipe. Looking at trying one of these soon.

Cheers


----------



## dans6401

Well just looked at my notes and i didn't use Screwtops recipe like i thought. I did get it off here somewhere. 

2.81 kg Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 78.1 % 
0.39 kg Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 10.8 % 
0.20 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 5.5 % 
0.20 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.5 % 
33.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (60 min) Hops 18.0 IBU 
29.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 3.5 IBU


----------



## earle

Cheers. Did you mash the wheat malt or was it a caramalt?


----------



## moonshine

Ok so yesterday i put on a double batch biab WRDA clone attempt loosly baised on screwys recipie
here's the recipe
on July 23 

made 24L => OG 1.116 (from brix conversion)
watered down to 46L 1056 @ 20degC or 13.3 brix (either refractometer or hydrometer is out a bit)
pitched WRDA starter (from 6 pack)

WRDA clone - v1 - American Brown Ale
================================================================================
Batch Size: 46.000 L
Boil Size: 46.000 L
Boil Time: 0.000 s
Efficiency: 75%
OG: 1.056
FG: 1.056
ABV: 0.0%
Bitterness: 45.3 IBUs (Tinseth)
Color: 51 SRM (Mosher)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pilsner JW Grain 9.000 kg Yes No 78% 1 L
Chocolate Malt JW Grain 1.175 kg Yes No 73% 450 L
Carafa Grain 300.000 g Yes No 70% 337 L
Carafa III Grain 300.000 g Yes No 70% 525 L
Carafoam Grain 400.000 g Yes No 72% 2 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 120L Grain 400.000 g Yes No 72% 120 L

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time IBU
Sticklebract NZ 09 11.7% 66.000 g Boil 1.000 hr 36.8
Cascade 7.8% 46.000 g Boil 15.000 min 8.5
Sticklebract NZ 09 11.7% 46.000 mg Boil 0.000 s 0.0



======================
======================


I'll tell ya what it's like when i taste it


----------



## Acasta

Awesome Moonshine. I think ill do a WRDA soon.


----------



## Phoney

Ive just cracked my first bottle. I dont have an original to do a side-by-side but working from memory its very, very close! 




Hell even if it aint it's still bloody nice! :beerbang:


----------



## under

I liked this beer also. Had a few bottles yesterday. Recipe wise I was thinking Smurtos golden ale with some carafa for colour. Thats what I thought it tasted like. 

Everyone who tried it liked it.


----------



## Acasta

Alright, im trying to culture some of this yeast and i got a few questions. Im fairly new to yeast culturing, i've only done coopers before. 

I've done the dregs from 6 bottles and 100ml water and 10g LDME, followed all the sanitary steps. Its been 2 days and there is a little amount of stuff in there, maybe a thin layer diameter of 10cent coin.

Just wondering; How long will it take to step up to full batch around 87ml? How many steps? how do u know when a step is done? What step ups should I use and how long roughly would the yeast take to get thorough each batch?

Thanks alot.


----------



## Phoney

Just give it a few more days, if you dont have a stir plate, swirl it around as often as you can, then just pitch it as is. I used a 500ml/50g starter so you can add more if you feel the need but you'll probably get away with using what you've got.


----------



## RobW

phoneyhuh said:


> Just give it a few more days, if you dont have a stir plate, swirl it around as often as you can, then just pitch it as is. I used a 500ml/50g starter so you can add more if you feel the need but you'll probably get away with using what you've got.



I think you'd struggle with that amount of yeast.
I'd be building it up to a litre at least.


----------



## argon

RobW said:


> I think you'd struggle with that amount of yeast.
> I'd be building it up to a litre at least.



+1 build it up to at least a litre.... leave the current starter for a few more days, crash chill, decant off starter beer then add another 1 litre of cooled 1040 wort.... give it a massive shake to aerate leave for a few more days. If decanting to just add slurry shake every now and then, but don't shake after initial pitching if not decanting.


----------



## Acasta

will the yeast be able to handle 1L straight from this 100ml? Over last night theres a tin layer on the bottom of the jar (500ml jam jar)
So argon, your saying don't shake or anything if i am going to pitch into wort, but if its a batch just for growing its ok to stir, then decant the beer intop after chill?
Im planning on brewing on wensday, so i might crash chill it tomorrow and give it sunday-wensday morning to grow (with shaking and stirring), then decant and make a starter wensday morn to pitch that night/noon.
Is that too excessive?


----------



## Screwtop

Acasta said:


> Alright, im trying to culture some of this yeast and i got a few questions. Im fairly new to yeast culturing, i've only done coopers before.
> 
> I've done the dregs from 6 bottles and 100ml water and 10g LDME, followed all the sanitary steps. Its been 2 days and there is a little amount of stuff in there, maybe a thin layer diameter of 10cent coin.
> 
> Just wondering; How long will it take to step up to full batch around 87ml? How many steps? how do u know when a step is done? What step ups should I use and how long roughly would the yeast take to get thorough each batch?
> 
> Thanks alot.




A ,
Once fermentation has ceased (look through the container with a light source, no bubbles rising up the inside wall of the container - its finished), then step again by adding more wort. 
Steps are usually 10 times so next 1 litre. Next would be 10L which is pretty much unpractical so maybe 4L. Step until once fermentation is finished you have the amount of yeast slurry required to pitch to your beer. Use the Mr Malty calculator to determine the amount of slurry required for the volume and gravity of your beer you plan on pitching to. Refrigerate for a couple of days to drop out, syphon off the beer with sanitised tubing to leave the slurry, measure the volume you have, need more - pitch to more fresh wort. Once I have the correct amount I make a 2L starter and pitch to that, it will be active quite quickly, pitch the active starter.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Acasta

sweet, do you pitch the whole 2L in? That would dilute my 19L batch a fair bit haha.

EDIT: well on second thoughts, im doing high gravity wort, so ill be adding 4-5L water to the fermenter anyway. This should work.


----------



## Phoney

From my experience a 2L starter wasnt needed. I pitched a 500ml and it kicked off strong the following day and fermented out to 1.016 within a week. What's the benefit of making a huge starter and potentially diluting your hopped wort?


----------



## Acasta

Well for me, im doing high gravtiy wort, so 2L wort or 2L water wont bother me.

But i see what your saying too. Screwey does double batches, so 2L to 46L isn't a massive deal.


----------



## Screwtop

Acasta said:


> sweet, do you pitch the whole 2L in? That would dilute my 19L batch a fair bit haha.
> 
> EDIT: well on second thoughts, im doing high gravity wort, so ill be adding 4-5L water to the fermenter anyway. This should work.



For an Active Starter take 2L of wort from the fermenter and then pitch this when active, reduces lag time greatly. I won't pitch 2L of stepped up wort (shaken/aerated on the stirplate). Occasionally I do pitch 2L active starters of DME wort, to some beers. Easy enough to adjust hopping in recipe formulation.



phoneyhuh said:


> What's the benefit of making a huge starter and potentially diluting your hopped wort?



Use a 2L starter as I want some yeast to begin budding before pitching. Starter can be the same wort as your pitching to, doesn't have to be DME wort like you would use for steps!

Screwy


----------



## argon

Acasta said:


> ...snip
> So argon, your saying don't shake or anything if i am going to pitch into wort, but if its a batch just for growing its ok to stir, then decant the beer intop after chill?
> ...snip



Firstly... listen to screwy... he's about a billion times more experienced than me at all this.

Secondly this is how i do it.. simple formula;
1 make starter, cool, aerate, add yeast, aerate, aerate, aerate, wait for ferment to stop, decant, add slurry
or 2 make starter, cool, aerate, add yeast, wait for ferment to stop, add whole batch of starter.

Essentially if you're adding the entire batch of starter beer you don't want to aerate after you've added the yeast and fermentation has begun.


----------



## Screwtop

argon said:


> or 2 make starter, cool, aerate, add yeast, wait for ferment to stop, add whole batch of starter.
> 
> Essentially if you're adding the entire batch of starter beer you don't want to aerate after you've added the yeast and fermentation has begun.




For some reason, maybe my poor communication skills, but I'm not getting the message through. Pitching an "active starter" is different to building/stepping yeast. An "Active Starter" is pitched when the starter is actively fermenting. Pitching and "active starter" shortens lag time. 

For those shy of pitching full starter volume, drop out the yeast in the fridge and pitch the slurry, however pitching slurry is like going back a step, fermentation has to begin all over again. That is pitching yeast slurry not a starter.

Sorry argon, maybe nit picking but:

2 make starter, cool, aerate, add yeast, wait until active fermentation is observed before pitching whole batch of starter.

Active fermentation (krausen is not always evident, use a light source, look through the side wall of the starter vessel, should see lots of Co2 bubbles rising up through the wort)


Screwy


----------



## argon

Screwtop said:


> For some reason, maybe my poor communication skills, but I'm not getting the message through. Pitching an "active starter" is different to building/stepping yeast. An "Active Starter" is pitched when the starter is actively fermenting. Pitching and "active starter" shortens lag time.
> 
> For those shy of pitching full starter volume, drop out the yeast in the fridge and pitch the slurry, however pitching slurry is like going back a step, fermentation has to begin all over again. That is pitching yeast slurry not a starter.
> 
> Sorry argon, maybe nit picking but:
> 
> 2 make starter, cool, aerate, add yeast, wait until active fermentation is observed before pitching whole batch of starter.
> 
> Active fermentation (krausen is not always evident, use a light source, look through the side wall of the starter vessel, should see lots of Co2 bubbles rising up through the wort)
> 
> 
> Screwy



Thanks Screwy totally happy to be corrected I did have a reread of what I posted and, yep youre right, I am incorrect in the phrase, wait for ferment to stop 

I guess 2 different goals 1 wait to stop = building yeast, wheras, look for active ferment = active starter



> Firstly... listen to screwy... he's about a billion times more experienced than me at all this.


 another good save by me... :icon_cheers:


----------



## AndrewQLD

To me the whole idea of building up a starter is to create enough viable cells so that lag time is reduced and you don't have to pitch an _active_ starter, I can't see the necessity of building up your cell count to a 2 lt starter volume only to pitch the whole lot when it is active.

Why not just pitch your wyeast into a 500ml starter and let it get to high krusen and then pitch into your brew, I mean the commercial yeasts are supposed to be pitching quantities after all so there should be no need to build them up, just get them active.

If I build up to a 2 lt starter from a saved vial or slant when the ferment has finished I decant all but 100ml of the wort after the yeast has dropped out of suspension , swirl and pitch into my brew. There is more than enough yeast to start fermentation within a couple of hours maximum, that way I am brewing the recipe I have designed and not adding another dimension of 2lt of fermented beer.

This method has worked exceptionally well for me for years and while I probably build my starters differently to others, I drain the wort from each step as I build my starter prior to pitching the next lot of wort for the next step up, I still can't see the need to pitch active starters if your yeast volume is large enough.

But hey it's courses for horses and we all have our own methods.

Andrew


----------



## Sydneybrewer

ok so i am finally going to put down my clone this week and i have the re-cultured yeast about 2cm thick in the bottom of the bottle, but my only concern is the overpowering sulphur/ egg fart smell of the cultered bottle.. is this normal? 

anyway below is the recipe i am going with

Wort Volume Before Boil: 25.00 l Wort Volume After Boil: 23.00 l
Volume Transferred: 23.00 l Water Added To Fermenter: 0.00 l
Volume At Pitching: 23.00 l Volume Of Finished Beer: 19.00 l
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG Expected OG: 1.050 SG
Expected FG: 1.011 SG Apparent Attenuation: 77.9 %
Expected ABV: 5.2 % Expected ABW: 4.1 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 33.9 IBU Expected Color (using Morey): 21.3 SRM
BU:GU ratio: 0.67 Approx Color:	
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 % 
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins 
Fermentation Temperature: 18 degC 

Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	MCU	When
Australian Traditional Ale Malt 4.000 kg 72.7 % 4.9 In Mash/Steeped
German CaraMunich I 1.000 kg 18.2 % 12.7 In Mash/Steeped
Belgian Special B 0.300 kg 5.5 % 16.0 In Mash/Steeped
UK Pale Chocolate Malt 0.200 kg 3.6 % 14.5 In Mash/Steeped

Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	IBU	Form	When
NZ Pacific Gem 14.0 % 10 g 14.5 Loose Whole Hops 60 Min From End
NZ Pacific Gem 14.0 % 20 g 14.4 Loose Whole Hops 15 Min From End
NZ Cascade 8.0 % 30 g 5.0 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End

Yeast
White Rabbit Cultured


----------



## AndrewQLD

I'd be a bit wary if the sulphur smell is very strong, some yeasts will clear the problem up if it is a normal side affect produced by the yeast but if it is because the yeast has become infected or suffered undue stress in the bottle you will be disappointed with the final results.
If it was me I'd toss it and use a more reliable source.

Andrew


----------



## Acasta

Cool thanks guys, put me at ease and ill follow your advice screwey. I was didn't think of making a starter from my own wort 
We'll see how it goes. Brewing on Wednesday.


----------



## Sydneybrewer

Thanks andrew... Hmmm something to think about now, it will be a pita to have to reculture again but i guess the positives and possible negatives outweigh the task of starting over.


----------



## Gout

I went to young and jacksons in melbourne today after the..... footy if you call it that and asked for a dark ale and was told they no longer serve little Creatures beers.... i was thinking ohhhhh what and she offered me a bottle of LCPA - strange 


i have had it (dark ale) in the bottle a few times and really think it was poor however on tap it was great. guess will stick to my home brew


----------



## rude

I recon use nottingham yeast see how close you can go with that yeast


----------



## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> To me the whole idea of building up a starter is to create enough viable cells so that lag time is reduced and you don't have to pitch an _active_ starter, I can't see the necessity of building up your cell count to a 2 lt starter volume only to pitch the whole lot when it is active.
> 
> Why not just pitch your wyeast into a 500ml starter and let it get to high krusen and then pitch into your brew, I mean the commercial yeasts are supposed to be pitching quantities after all so there should be no need to build them up, just get them active.
> 
> If I build up to a 2 lt starter from a saved vial or slant when the ferment has finished I decant all but 100ml of the wort after the yeast has dropped out of suspension , swirl and pitch into my brew. There is more than enough yeast to start fermentation within a couple of hours maximum, that way I am brewing the recipe I have designed and not adding another dimension of 2lt of fermented beer.
> 
> This method has worked exceptionally well for me for years and while I probably build my starters differently to others, I drain the wort from each step as I build my starter prior to pitching the next lot of wort for the next step up, I still can't see the need to pitch active starters if your yeast volume is large enough.
> 
> But hey it's courses for horses and we all have our own methods.
> 
> Andrew



Exactly, and Andrew knows his stuff, his runs on the board prove that unreservedly!

I tried 500ml and 1L starters from smack packs but found 2L shortened lag time. An email to the manufacturers confirmed that at 2L some cell growth had begun, smaller batchers were basically just going straight to fermentation phase, then needed to get going on cell multiplation once pitched. Pitching a fresh smackpack straight to wort takes longer to get going. Yeast in the smackpack may be fresh but it's not in the best shape it could be in, as Andrew found once yeast has cycled it is in prime condition and ready to go for the next brew, lag time is very short in this case. 

The best advice for any brewer is to experiment, great way to learn!

Screwy


----------



## Acasta

When CCing do drop yeast out, how long would it take roughly in the fridge?


----------



## sav

So how are the tasting of this beer, I bought a six pak for x-mas and Its time to brew it.




sav


----------



## Acasta

Made this up, its pretty damn good.
Use Simpsons for the crystal and get the yeast cultured from the bottles.
Enjoy.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 27.00 L 
Boil Size: 31.40 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 47.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 30.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.94 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5Grain 71.9 % 
0.84 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 12.3 % 
0.42 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (216.7 EBC) Grain 6.1 % 
0.24 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.5 % 
0.24 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC)Grain 3.5 % 
0.18 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2.6 % 
30.00 gm Cluster [7.90%] (60 min) Hops 20.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Pacific Hallertau [5.00%] (20 min) Hops 5.3 IBU 
50.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 4.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] Hops - 
1 Pkgs Essex Ale Yeast (White Labs #WLP022) Yeast-Ale


----------



## Shine

I tried the dark ale at the brewery in Melbourne this past weekend. Fabulous brew. Brought home a six since the idea of beer in Alice Springs tends to be recycled VB (as in "pissed back into the bottle and sold") and thought making my own might be the go. Not sure on the grains used but one of the guys I talked to said Pacifica (Pacific Hallertau) and Cascade. They had the same hops on a display table by the bar. I'm pretty sure that cascade is a finishing hop and the pacifica is used in the boil. I'm going to start with 60 and 30 minute addtions and go from there.


----------



## felten

Shine said:


> I tried the dark ale at the brewery in Melbourne this past weekend. Fabulous brew. Brought home a six since the idea of beer in Alice Springs tends to be recycled VB (as in "pissed back into the bottle and sold") and thought making my own might be the go. Not sure on the grains used but one of the guys I talked to said Pacifica (Pacific Hallertau) and Cascade. They had the same hops on a display table by the bar. I'm pretty sure that cascade is a finishing hop and the pacifica is used in the boil. I'm going to start with 60 and 30 minute addtions and go from there.


Check out this post further back in the thread for an idea on their process/ingredients. There's a few other gems on the first few pages as well.


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

Acasta said:


> Made this up, its pretty damn good.
> Use Simpsons for the crystal and get the yeast cultured from the bottles.
> Enjoy.
> 
> 
> Recipe Specifications
> --------------------------
> Batch Size: 27.00 L
> Boil Size: 31.40 L
> Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
> Estimated Color: 47.6 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 30.6 IBU
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
> Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 4.94 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5Grain 71.9 %
> 0.84 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 12.3 %
> 0.42 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (216.7 EBC) Grain 6.1 %
> 0.24 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.5 %
> 0.24 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC)Grain 3.5 %
> 0.18 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2.6 %
> 30.00 gm Cluster [7.90%] (60 min) Hops 20.6 IBU
> 20.00 gm Pacific Hallertau [5.00%] (20 min) Hops 5.3 IBU
> 50.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
> 20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] Hops -
> 1 Pkgs Essex Ale Yeast (White Labs #WLP022) Yeast-Ale



+1 on the use of Simpson's specifically and re-culturing the yeast.

Sticklebract dry hopped for aroma is perfect if you had some on hand. :icon_cheers:


----------



## sim

gonna have a crack at this soon, and if i dont reculture from the bottle my money is on WLP023 Burton. at least thats what my nose was telling me last time i had it on tap. mmmm


sim


----------



## mattfos01

I recultured from the dregs of two Dark ales stubbies a couple of months back. Used it for a kits and bits dark ale 
It was great.


----------



## Newbee(r)

Rooting Kings said:


> Not had the beer but I get a big whack of berry like flavours from Pacific Gem so it was my first thought too...not fruit.




Recently bottled a white rabbit inspired dark ale with 15 g of pacific gem at 15 min chasing the blackberry flavours. Hoping to hell it mellows right down as after 3 weeks fermenting and 2 weeks bottle conditioning the woody ( I use this term loosely) type flavours are dominating everything else there is a strawberry element but not a nice one. Recipe below. Efficiency was higher, with OG at 1.058. 

Anyone else used pacific gem and found it balances out?

*White Rabbitish beer (biab#3)* (Northern English Brown Ale)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 21.4 (EBC): 42.2
Bitterness (IBU): 52.6 (Average)

82% Maris Otter Malt
10% Munich II
5% Carafa II malt
3% Crystal 60

0.9 g/L Super Alpha (12% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Cascade (7.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil)
0.4 g/L Pacific Gem (13.7% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Stickebract (14% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 67C for 90 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20C with Wyeast 1318 - London Ale III


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## Tanga

Mattfos01 said:


> I recultured from the dregs of two Dark ales stubbies a couple of months back. Used it for a kits and bits dark ale
> It was great.




Recipe? How'd it turn out? Close to the White Rabbit?


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## Bizier

I bought a six pack last night as a default choice and noticed a distinct biscuit flavour to the malt, similar to MO or judicial use of amber. I am unsure why I've never noticed it so clearly before, might have been the mood my palate was in.


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## ledgenko

I agree with Rude the use of Nottingham yeast ... works really well.. I have used the real mccoy as well as Burtons and Nottingham on dark ales previously with what I think are excellent results.. SWMBO can vouch for this as the beer seems to evaporate really quickly in my fridge .... actually come to think of it Everything disappears from my fridge .. LOL..

but guys this thread has refreshed my enthusiasm for reculturing yeasts .. I am off to the bottle-o !! 

Cheers


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## phoenixdigital

I was reading this thread lastnight and there were a lot of people saying that open fermentation would be pretty tricky in a home environment. These guys go through what is required yeast wise and process wise if someone wants to give that a go for white rabbit?

http://www.brewingtv.com/episodes/2010/5/1...rmentation.html

tasting notes of open ferment brew here
http://www.brewingtv.com/episodes/2010/6/8...ting-notes.html

Based on what they are saying the open fermentation appears to add different flavours.

I would try it but I have not even moved to partial or all grains yet  Looking forward to trying some of these recipes when I do though. White Rabbit Dark Ale is incredible.

Edit: Personally I would cover the fermenter at least with a breathable cloth as I have had fruit flies work their way into our brewing fridge at times. God forbid what would happen with an open fermenter.


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## bcp

I tried it for first time on Sunday. 

Here's my recipe for 23litre batch:

23 litres sparkling mineral water
2 cups cadbury's bourneville cocoa.

Guess it's not my thing


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## phoenixdigital

bcp said:


> Guess it's not my thing



Each to their own.

Our local brewshop suggested we replicate it by doing the following.

1 x tin of Muntons Pale Ale
1 x small bag of stout grain (cant remember the size)
1kg of DME
600g of Dextrose (to bring the OG to 1.040)
20g Cascade hops (added to fermenter)

1 x 6 pack of white rabbit ('borrow' the yeast)

We only had a really small pot so had to steep the grain in a large bowl of boiled water. 
The rest we put together the same as any normal extract beer.

We harvested the white rabbit yeast the week before and kept in a tupperware style container at 17 degrees. Feeding it some DME every second days and giving it a shake.

We bottled it on Sunday and it tasted amazing. Disclaimer: We do however think that White Rabbit Dark Ale is one of the best beers we have tasted to date.

I must say it is the tastiest beer (from racking unit) we have made so far of the 8 extract brews we have done. I am not sure if its the yeast or the small stout grain pack or the fact this is the first dark ale we have made?

All our other beers have had that good old home brew twang which we can't seem to shake no matter how much sanitising or Safale yeast we use or brewing at constant 17 degrees. But that whinge is for another thread.

Fingers crossed in 2 weeks this White Rabbit Dark will be tasting great.


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## beercoder

I have been told by the guys at Grain and Grape (who said they spoke to the guys at White Rabbit) that the yeast in the bottles is not the same yeast they ferment with. I imagine years ago when they first started making it they used the same yeast but now they have matured as a brewery I would guess they don't anymore.

I'm in the process of brewing (currently boiling) something similar Doog's recipe (page 4) as I type this now except I will be using Wyeast 1099 Whitbread Ale yeast for fermentation.

I'll follow up in a couple of weeks with tasting notes once it's kegged. I know a few guys who live and die by WRDA so I'll see if I can get them to guess which one is which with a blind test.


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## manticle

In clone threads on this forum, Kai has confirmed the yeast in the bottle is the primary strain.

You could be right that it has changed as that was a year or two ago now.


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## phoenixdigital

manticle said:


> In clone threads on this forum, Kai has confirmed the yeast in the bottle is the primary strain.
> 
> You could be right that it has changed as that was a year or two ago now.



Whatever yeast is in the bottle it definitely ferments beer well. I have been told by my brew buddy that our white rabbit dark ale tastes awesome.

It doesnt taste like WRDA but its beer and it tastes good so thats a win in my books.


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## Damien13

Screwtop said:


> Had a couple of these and quite like the beer, very close to one of my house faves. So here is my attempt at a clone, uses a good true top cropper also, guess White Rabbit would need to use something similar seeing as they are open fermenting.
> 
> Recipe: White Rabbit Dark Ale Clone
> 
> Batch Size: 47.00 L
> Boil Size: 58.63 L
> Boil Time: 90
> Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
> Estimated Color: 22.1 SRM
> Estimated IBU: 41.4 IBU
> Bitterness Ratio: 0.767
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 82.00 %
> 
> 
> 75.00% Pale Malt, (Joe White)
> 12.00% Munich, Dark
> 5.00% Carafa II
> 3.00% Cara-Pils
> 2.50% Crystal (Dark)
> 2.50% Crystal (Pale)
> 35 IBU Super Alpha (90 min) hops
> 1g/l Cascade (15 min) hops
> 2 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318)e
> 1g/l Sticklebract (Flowers) (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
> 
> Mash
> Water sdjustment 120ppm CaSO4
> Mash-in/Saccharification 75 min @ 66.0 C
> Mash Out 10 min @ 77.0 C


Ok, so I am about to try the above... has anyone else done this... I am subbing the hops for all 60 min Golding hops...anyhoo... more concerned about the recipe... let me know gents!


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## bonj

Screwtop's recipe is apparently pretty close. I do know this beer has gone through incremental changes through its life, so it may not be as close to the current version, but the 2010 version was a great beer. I say go for it.


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## Damien13

Thanks Bonj! Thanks for a legend response. I was half expecting someone to tell me to search, or strangle a cat, or use glad wrap, so to get your nice simple answer was awesome. Will give it a crack and report back.


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## dougsbrew

i brewed screwys recipe 2 weeks ago, currenlty have this on tap, bloody good drop.
i didnt have all the hops listed, but subbed with similar, and did the us05 instead.
will be brewing this recipe again. cheers.

and ive tasted screwys brewed version btw, which was better than mine..


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## carniebrew

I realise the colour's not the most important component here, but if you want something that looks like WRDA, wouldn't you need it a lot darker than 22 SRM? I believe WRDA is 65 EBC, so more like 32 SRM. My (yet to be brewed) 25 litre recipe has 150gm Dark Crystal 270 (ebc) & 350gm Carafa Special III to get an EBC of 64.3.


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## dougsbrew

if it wasnt so early id pour one and post a pic for you, it is quite dark, maybe will post a pic this arvo at beeraclock.


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## carniebrew

Cheers Doug...but go on...it's always beer o'clock somewhere!!


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## Screwtop

carniebrew said:


> I realise the colour's not the most important component here, but if you want something that looks like WRDA, wouldn't you need it a lot darker than 22 SRM? I believe WRDA is 65 EBC, so more like 32 SRM. My (yet to be brewed) 25 litre recipe has 150gm Dark Crystal 270 (ebc) & 350gm Carafa Special III to get an EBC of 64.3.


The actual colour is very close, the SRM is from Beersmith based upon whatever figure has been entered for the type of malt in the Beersmith Database. I boil for 90 min which for me always results in a darker colour than what BS estimates. 

Play around with the recipe..............thats what brewers do!!

Screwy


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## Damien13

Thanks Screwy,
Appreciate your recipe and recommendations... This beer will be making a friend of mine extremely happy if it turns out like I hope!


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## super_simian

manticle said:


> In clone threads on this forum, Kai has confirmed the yeast in the bottle is the primary strain.
> 
> You could be right that it has changed as that was a year or two ago now.


This has changed, I think, pretty early on in fact (although this quote is from 2011, which may predate the change?**). The bottle conditioning strain is no longer the primary.

My best recipe for a WRDA-esque (I don't really bother cloning readily available beers...or readily unavailable beers for that matter*) has been with Coopers *dry* (not bottle) ale yeast. The kind K+Bits brewers tend to chuck out. 2 packs per 19-23L batch, 18C. Pretty damn good, got that woodsy, bready taste. Worked better than Nottingham, S04, 1099 and 1332. Although the true yeast was said to be Essex Ale, if memory serves.

*I prefer to be inspired by great beers, and do tributes, not clones. Leave that to the hair-splitters on the US boards.

**Edited after I realised how old the quote was. Apologies manticle.


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## dougsbrew

carniebrew said:


> Cheers Doug...but go on...it's always beer o'clock somewhere!!


ok, here you go .


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## Damien13

that pic got me excited....
ok ok... both pics... but especially the beer...
ok ok... it was the boobs...


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## Screwtop

dougsbrew said:


> ok, here you go .


Thats a fantastic pic Doug. Great composition, look at the focus on the beer and the condensation on the glass, short depth of field with the Aussie bush out of focus for a background.......................... Then what about the bucket full of earth and the beer balanced on a tine.

Screwy

Oh and the other pic has great detail also, if you look really close


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## dicko

That's a top pic.

Diggin' up rabbit burrows in search of the "White Rabbit"

Excellent.......

And then there's BOOBS....


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## spog

*bugga the beer,boobs,tines and bush,half way down the glass in the far right of the pic i see...jesus.*
*hang on got my glasses on now...yep he's still there..umm sorry too many beers....cheers....spog.....*


*go on, have a look, you know you want too.....*


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## TheWiggman

Some extended relatives of mine are HUGE WRDA fans so I intended to make a clone from the advice in this thread. I bought a 6 pack for the hefty price of $24 with the logic of "the yeast costs $13, so $11 for the beer is good value". I decanted veeeery carefully and was impressed at the clarity. Seemed a little too clear. Checked the base of the bottle and yep - zero yeast. 
Beware the White Rabbit bottles from the Geelong brewery are no longer bottle conditioned.


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## AJS2154

Hi Wiggman,

I have made it a mission to try WRDA on tap when the opportunity arises......I am trying to find the reason so many people have said this is a good drop. To me, it lacks any substantial roasty dark ale flavour, but does have a wonderful hop flavour. The essence of the beer will be to get the hops right when you brew it. The hops are the star of the show in my opinion.

Good luck with it mate, Anthony


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## super_simian

TheWiggman said:


> Beware the White Rabbit bottles from the Geelong brewery are no longer bottle conditioned.


Haven't been for a long time. Pre-Geelong.


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## TheWiggman

This was the first time I'd tried it. Not bad, but not the wonder-beer I'd been led to believe it was. It had a lot in common with Mountain Goat Hightail Ale to my tastes, though better than the Hightail (which I think it very bland and oddly watery despite the pleasant aroma). I think it's intended to sit in that happy category where it's got much more going on than your standard tap lager but not enough to get the beer snobs raving.


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## Liam_snorkel

It's changed a bit since this thread was started


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## Gardenman1

re culture


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## technobabble66

Bandicoot !









... we're free word associating here, right?


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## Weizguy

technobabble66 said:


> Bandicoot !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... we're free word associating here, right?


Potoroo !


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## Weizguy

Les the Weizguy said:


> Potoroo !


Sorry, looked again. It IS a bandicoot.

So, final assessment. Is this beer really worth replicating. From my memory of it, no...


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## AJS2154

For what it's worth, I think the Dark Ale serves as an inspiration as much as anything.......a good starting point for a home brewer to improve on. I have made it a mission to try it on tap where I can, and I think the hops are great, but it needs significant help with the flavour department. More roast and some chocolate flavour would produce something nice.

I will have a swing at Screwtop's recipe, use it as a good starting point. By all accounts that is a good brew.

All the best, Anthony


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## TheWiggman

Thanks to the paranoid public the 'beautiful truth' campaign has shown the ingredients of the WRDA -


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## Lowlyf

Such a bloody nice beer. Might brew one early next year for the winter months


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## AJS2154

TheWiggman said:


> Thanks to the paranoid public the 'beautiful truth' campaign has shown the ingredients of the WRDA -


Good to see a benefit from the "paranoid public" campaigns. I realy like the hop combination in this beer, and with a little push on the roastiness, it would be a cracker. Thanks for posting Wiggman.


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## Frothy1

I've only ever had this from the tap at Freo and I don't know if there's any difference in taste to the stubbie.

I put tweaked version of Screwy's down, 1/2 the batch kegged and the other 1/2 bottled.

The kegged beer has a lot more flavor and aroma and I found the bottled 1/2 lacking.

The only difference is that the keg was conditioning in the fridge and the bottles were in the garage at around 20c.

Would that be enough to impact the flavor that much?


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## shacked

This is my first attempt at a WRDA clone 36 hours in. Just happened to check it at 5 this morning before work and the airlock had clogged with yeast and krausen everywhere. Yeast is second gen WLP023


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## JDW81

shacked said:


> airlock had clogged with yeast and krausen everywhere. Yeast is second gen WLP023


Time for a bigger fermenter....

I hope the kitten is alright h34r:


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## shacked

Put my WRDA attempt on gas this afternoon. It's already drinking great and I suspect is a little bit too hop forward compared to the original. I'm going to do a side by side next weekend. FWIW here is my recipe. I BIAB, no chill and do a 20m whirlpool before cubing. The 'aroma' hops are in the cube:

WRDA 1.1
American Brown Ale

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 22.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.500
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.051 (°P): 12.6
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.01 %
Colour (SRM): 26.1 (EBC): 51.4
Bitterness (IBU): 36.6 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 65
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Gladfield Ale (72.73%)
0.550 kg Castle Munich I (10%)
0.250 kg Wheat Malt (JW) (4.55%)
0.200 kg Carafa Special I (3.64%)
0.200 kg Crystal 60 (Muntons) (3.64%)
0.100 kg Caraaroma (1.82%)
0.100 kg Gladfield Light Crystal (1.82%)
0.100 kg Midnight Wheat (1.82%)

Hop Bill
----------------
10.0 g Sticklebract Pellet (14% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (First Wort) (0.5 g/L)
15.0 g Cascade (NZ) Pellet (7.7% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)
10.0 g Rakau Pellet (9.9% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (0.5 g/L)
15.0 g Sticklebract Pellet (14% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (0.7 g/L)
30.0 g Sticklebract Pellet (14% Alpha) @ 5 Days (Dry Hop) (1.4 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
5.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
3.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
1.0 g Whirlfloc Tablet @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1.0 g Yeast Nutrient @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 65°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with WLP023 - Burton Ale


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


----------

