# Problem With Saflager W34/70 Yeast



## Goo (2/3/07)

Hi 

I've made a few ESB Australian Draught kits up recently with great results using Safale SA-04 yeast - never had any problems. Someone suggested trying a lager yeast with that kit. Seems with the cooler weather coming then it might be time to experiment with some lagers anyway so I decided to give it a whirl

I tried one kit with the Saflager 023 yeast - it worked fine, fermenting out properly at about 12 degrees, however the second kit (I said I was experimenting!! plus I'm short on brew lol) I used the W34/70 yeast and it's barely fired at all. I gave it a stir.. nothing.. checked hydrometer.. no movement.. waited a week.. got frustrated.. threw in a second bag of yeast (rehydrated)... 4 days later.. nothing

Am I missing something here or doing something wrong with this yeast? Any suggestions?


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## Beerpig (2/3/07)

G'day Goo

What temperature did you have it at?

Cheers


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## Goo (2/3/07)

Hiya Beerpig

Running the temp controller at 12. I dont immerse my probe though, its stuck on the fermenter side under a big block of foam so it might be a degree or 2 warmer in the beer

Dropped it to 10 yesterday to see if maybe I was running too hot but that hasnt helped either.


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## Beerpig (2/3/07)

This might be of some help

Link

Cheers


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## Steve (2/3/07)

Goo
Did you take a hydrometer reading when you first put the brew down? Taking those is the safest bet to see if its brewing. Hope you arent looking for signs just by the airlock? Does it smell suphury (rotten eggs)? If so its working.
Cheers
Steve


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## Goo (2/3/07)

Steve said:


> Goo
> Did you take a hydrometer reading when you first put the brew down? Taking those is the safest bet to see if its brewing. Hope you arent looking for signs just by the airlock? Does it smell suphury (rotten eggs)? If so its working.
> Cheers
> Steve



yup - 1044 at pitching on 21/2/07
1034 now 2/3/07

So somethings happened but it's hella slow!

Beerpig thanks for the link


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## DJR (2/3/07)

Next time pitch 2 packets or pitch 1 packet at room temperature then drop the temp once fermentation begins, or make a starter of about 1.5 to 3L with a portion of the yeast packet (1/4 of it should be enough, making 4 brews with a bit of work). Yeast are very slow to reproduce at low temperatures and the amount of yeast in 1 packet is insufficient.


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## Yeasty (2/3/07)

I pitch 1 pack (11.5g) of 34/70 @ 20-23 then straight in the fridge.

Its very slow, and only seems to take off about a week + after the pitching. U can hear the fermenter fizzing within 20 mins though and all through until finally u see some krausen activity..

Is the fermenter fizzing at all? (Listen hard to hear) If it is dont worry, because @ 12 its very slow fermenting...RDWHAHB


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## sluggerdog (2/3/07)

Yep, dry lager yeast is super slow to take off if your using 1 packet, I try to use liquids as I cannot see the point in spending $8 for 1 batch of beer on dried yeast.

Once your ready for the challenge, try some liquid yeasts and make a big starter (3litres +) for a lager that is, smaller for ales but I use dry for ales as it's easy going.


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## Goo (2/3/07)

sluggerdog said:


> Yep, dry lager yeast is super slow to take off if your using 1 packet, I try to use liquids as I cannot see the point in spending $8 for 1 batch of beer on dried yeast.
> 
> Once your ready for the challenge, try some liquid yeasts and make a big starter (3litres +) for a lager that is, smaller for ales but I use dry for ales as it's easy going.



Alrighty I'll sit it out a few more days then take another hydrometer reading. I'll look into a better starter next time I wander into lagerland!

Thanks guys


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## Steve (2/3/07)

I only ever pitch one 12gm sachet of dry lager yeast, whether it be 34/70 or S189 at room temp without re-hydrating, then drop the temp. Never had a slow brew?
S


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## Ross (2/3/07)

sluggerdog said:


> Yep, dry lager yeast is super slow to take off if your using 1 packet, I try to use liquids as I cannot see the point in spending $8 for 1 batch of beer on dried yeast.
> 
> Once your ready for the challenge, try some liquid yeasts and make a big starter (3litres +) for a lager that is, smaller for ales but I use dry for ales as it's easy going.



Then use 1 packet & make up a starter  - or/& reuse the trub  

Cheers Ross


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## Darren (2/3/07)

Ross said:


> Then use 1 packet & make up a starter  - or/& reuse the trub
> 
> Cheers Ross




Why not use two packs and do away with the starter?

Make a starter with dry yeast and you will probably end up with a less healthy population than in the dry pack.

If you are going to make a starter, then go the liquid yeasts.

cheers

Darren


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## Ross (3/3/07)

Darren said:


> Why not use two packs and do away with the starter?
> 
> Make a starter with dry yeast and you will probably end up with a less healthy population than in the dry pack.
> 
> ...



Don't you read the posts  - he said he didn't want to spend the money on 2 packs & hence the reply...

Building up a starter with dried yeast is fine, if you don't want to pitch the required volume dry...


cheers Ross


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## Goo (4/3/07)

Seems to have started to take off a bit today. 

Fingers crossed but its got a pretty steady bubbling happening at last. I'll let it chug away for a week then take a reading and see if we've made some progress!

:super:


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## Harley (6/3/07)

Goo said:


> Seems to have started to take off a bit today.
> 
> Fingers crossed but its got a pretty steady bubbling happening at last. I'll let it chug away for a week then take a reading and see if we've made some progress!
> 
> :super:




Hi Goo 

I brewed a larger on the weekend and used this yeast as well with the same results, no action.
I rang the HBS and he advised to just leave it at room temp until it starts to bubble, this took all up about 24 hours, I then reduced it to 14 deg and it seems to be working away ok.

Cheers Harley


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## Goo (6/3/07)

Harley said:


> Hi Goo
> 
> I brewed a larger on the weekend and used this yeast as well with the same results, no action.
> I rang the HBS and he advised to just leave it at room temp until it starts to bubble, this took all up about 24 hours, I then reduced it to 14 deg and it seems to be working away ok.
> ...



OK I'll give thast a shot next time, thanks 

Just took a hydrometer, down to 1020 now so it's well on it's way :groovy:


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## Darren (6/3/07)

Ross said:


> Don't you read the posts  - he said he didn't want to spend the money on 2 packs & hence the reply...
> 
> Building up a starter with dried yeast is fine, if you don't want to pitch the required volume dry...
> cheers Ross



Ross,

Not carefully no  

I still maintain one dry pack is healthier than a dry pack rehydrated and starter made  

cheers

Darren


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## matti (7/6/07)

Hey Goo.
if you ever read this post....
How's your brew?

I had two sachets in the freezer but one was about to pop.
So I made a small starter with the one sachet and pitched it at 18 degrees yesterday. 
Unfortunately i didn't manage to get the cell count up and found today the ferment had dropped to 10 degrees.
Thats 8 degrees in 36 hours.
Not much action. Fortunately the next few days will have temps around 10-15 degrees so I am going to leave out with a wholly jumper and hope fully it'll start up going allright next couple of days.
Then i'll pop it back in brew fridge at 9 degrees.

I am really sour with meself for not building up larger starter an allowing the temp to drop so quick.

I am sure that if I am patient, I still will get a reasonable Pilsner.
Knowing this yeast is pretty slow in reproducing.
Has any one found that this may have caused any detrimental effect to the final product?
I am pretty confident that it is fully sanitary just wonder what this type of yeast is able to do or not do.

The temp drop 8 in 36 H
Cell count down
Any way gonna stop rambling now.
Cherio


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## Keith the Beer Guy (8/6/07)

matti said:


> I had two sachets in the freezer but one was about to pop.
> 
> Has any one found that this may have caused any detrimental effect to the final product?


The freezer aint a good place for yeast that you're buying from a home brew store. Water, ice, bad karma.



matti said:


> Cell count down


Are you really performing cell counts?

I've thought about buying a cytometer, but it's always been a toy, oops did I say toy? I'm sure I meant tool, that I couldn't justify buying.

Are they easy to use?

Convenient and fast?

(Sorry to side track the thread.)

Thanks,

Keith


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## matti (8/6/07)

Just read the post, 


> QUOTE(matti @ Jun 7 2007, 09:51 PM)
> 
> I had two sachets in the freezer but one was about to pop.
> 
> Has any one found that this may have caused any detrimental effect to the final product?



I might have said freezer, because my brew fridge when at maximim setting is almost at freezing points.
The sachets have been sitting in the fridge door and one was swelled up so i didn't use it.
The other one I allowed to thaw up, rehydrate and added about 100 gram wort and let it sit for 24 hours.

Regarding cell count. Just an assumption as the fermentation ceased almost all together at 10 degrees.
I have used this yeast before and succesfully brew down to 8-9 degrees and good action in air lock.

I have rocked the fermenter and I am allowing it to warm up today.
It was at 12 degrees this morning and slight more action.

My real concern is if I had killed any yeast by the sudden drop of 8 degrees in 36h
Any if there are any ill side effect for this particular yeast.

Sorry cannot help you with cell count.

If you have a laboratatory you can plate some wort and do a yeast and mould count.
It will give a rough value LOL

Had to put that one in.


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## Wardhog (8/6/07)

Pitched 34/70 (1 x 11g packet) into the first pilsner I've done since going AG, and it was up and going within two days. I was a bit worried at how slowly it got going, but now it's going great guns. Pitched at 21 and then allowed to cool to 12.

I no-chill, and once the wort has cooled to pitching temperatures, I sit the no-chill vessel on a table and the intended fermenter on the floor below and open the tap on the no-chill vessel. I find this gives the wort really good aeration, and assists with a good start for the yeast. 

Perhaps that's the problem, maybe you need more oxygen in your wort to let the yeasties have their reproductive orgy before getting down to work. Maybe look into getting an aerating stone (or whatever they're called), or dream up some other method of getting some oxygen into your wort before pitching yeast.


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## matti (8/6/07)

Cheers.
I oxygentated it well at pitch.
Problem - most likely the temperature change.
Shocked the yeast a tad


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## Trough Lolly (8/6/07)

Goo said:


> Seems to have started to take off a bit today.
> 
> Fingers crossed but its got a pretty steady bubbling happening at last. I'll let it chug away for a week then take a reading and see if we've made some progress!
> 
> :super:



Hi Goo,
From what I've read, your lager should be fine. Avoid the temptation to raise the temperature above 16C to kick it along - all you'll do, if you're using lager yeast, is encourage the yeast to generate solventy fusels and fruity esters to the final product.
The trick to making good lagers is patience - and plenty of it. The yeast, just like all other ale strains etc needs to go through an adaptive phase which allows the yeast to adjust itself and settle into the new wort that you pitch it into. Actively fermenting starters often help drastically reduce that time, as do sachets of dry yeast that have trehalose and other compounds that help kick start the dry yeast when the yeast hits the wort.
Once the yeast finishes adapting to its new environment (16+ hours for ales and longer for lagers) it will start attenuating the sugars in solution and producing the alcohol and CO2 that we see during an active ferment. Research suggests that approximately 5% of the sugars are already consumed before the airlock starts to bubble - the solution needs to be saturated with CO2 before it will release any to the headspace in the fermenter - which is why a hydrometer is a better indicator of how your brew is progressing.
One lesser known thing is that yeast consumption of the maltose sugars is inhibited when you have substantial simple / sucrose sugars present in the wort - and that can often be the case with kit brews that have dextrose and sucrose as a significant proportion of available sugars. Once those sugar levels subside, the yeast will get on with attacking and converting the maltose and more dextrinous sugars.
(Sorry, I'll move away from beer geek mode now!)  

Anyway, have faith and patience in your yeast, don't fuss over the temp - try to keep it to what it conditioned itself to from the start and you should be fine.
Cheers,
TL


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## matti (10/6/07)

Great stuff, Trough Lolly.

You posts is always very informative and explanatorious.  
The PDF file for saflager w34/70 PDF
States the yeast is
(Saccharomyces cerevisiae)
While the sachet I got had a sticker saying it was Saccharomyces Carlsbergensis from memory.
Just curious if that is correct or false advertising?

I am not well viced in the different types of lager yeast and constantly looking them up. 

Back on track
I wonder how Goo is going?

I pithced my starter on Wednesdays and it is in high krausen now.
It is a good point Through Lolly mentioned



> Research suggests that approximately 5% of the sugars are already consumed before the airlock starts to bubble - the solution needs to be saturated with CO2 before it will release any to the headspace in the fermenter - which is why a hydrometer is a better indicator of how your brew is progressing.



The airlock started to bubble slowly Friday morning and reached the beginning of high krausen yeasterdays morning.
The temperature was 14 degrees. No real drama, but I stuck the fermenter back into brew fridge thats sits on 8-9 degrees.
The thermal mass of 20L and the heat generated from fermentation should keep the beer at 10-11 degrees hopefully. I intend to check in the morning as I get home from Nightshift.

Zwickel comment

This guy Zwickel reckons that you should pitch the yeast at ten degrees and that is all good but not fully necessary.
Especially when pitching dry yeasts.

Truogh Lolly aslso mentioned thats Sachets of dry yeast that have trehalose and other compounds that help kick start the dry yeast when the yeast hits the wort.

I would assume that most dry yeast have this, I might be wrong.

I think that when you pitch lager yeast it is much more beneficial trying to pitch two sachets or a little starter to ensure that the fermantation gets going,
Most importantly so that you achieve a clean ferment and other bacterias cannot get a hold and spoil the beer.

The most difficult and most common problem with lager brewing is in the pitching and fluctuating temperatures.

Even the tiniest flaw which may not be detected at an early stage, mainly because the yeasty or sulphury presence will disguise it, may become overwhelming as the beer is left in storage. 
Any bacteria even if killed off later can cause an off flavour when producing lager beers.

Ok I am rambling off topice here.

The fermentis PDF states the range between 9-15 with 12c degrees as the optimum temperature.

I would like to know if it work at all below 9?
Last year i had a yeast WLP830 which was still fermenting at 6 degress though.
Instruction were to ferment at 8-9 degrees.

Do I run the risk at putting the W34/70 to sleep at temperature below 9?

Cheers Beers and good night
matti


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## Weizguy (10/6/07)

> I brewed a larger on the weekend and used this yeast as well with the same results, no action.
> I rang the HBS and he advised to just leave it at room temp until it starts to bubble, this took all up about 24 hours, I then reduced it to 14 deg and it seems to be working away ok.
> 
> Cheers Harley



I think the lhbs was trying to placate you, and to ensure that they didn't get another phone call if you became impatient. If the yeast was viable, and there's no indication that it wasn't, you would have eventually seen some signs of fermentation, even at the lower temp. Warming up the beer would have sped up the yeasts metabolic processes, including those that produce solvent flavours and diacetyl.

As stated, the main ingredient in lager brewing is patience.


> from Trough Lolly - Research suggests that approximately 5% of the sugars are already consumed before the airlock starts to bubble - the solution needs to be saturated with CO2 before it will release any to the headspace in the fermenter - which is why a hydrometer is a better indicator of how your brew is progressing.



I'd like to note here that cooler wort can absorb more CO2 and therefore the evolution of CO2 from the wort will also be delayed further than in a warm ferment.



> from Matti - States the yeast is (Saccharomyces cerevisiae)While the sachet I got had a sticker saying it was Saccharomyces Carlsbergensis from memory.
> Just curious if that is correct or false advertising?


Nup, it's not false advertising! Both lager and ale yeast (brewing yeast) are now classified as S. cerevisiae.

Beerz
Seth


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## Trough Lolly (10/6/07)

G'day Matti,
If I brew lagers, I typically use liquid yeast or stored slurry and make a starter. I have sachets of W34/70 for emergency purposes but that said, I like to minimise temperature shock for the yeast (keep the yeast within 10 degrees of the wort that it's going into before you pitch it) so if the fridge is 4 degrees, I'd only add the dry yeast when the wort is below 14C.
9C for W34/70 is not an issue - W34/70 will condition beer down to 0C when you lager the beer so 9C for fermentation is right in the zone.
Agree with Zwickel's comments - I use two dry lager yeast sachets - I use twice as much yeast in lagers as I do with ales.
I'm doing a dortmunder (DAB clone) tonight and have a couple of litres of Wyeast 2000 in starters, in the garage at 10C right now...The missus hates the cold winter garage - for me it's lager heaven!

Cheers,
TL


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## Trough Lolly (10/6/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> <<snip>>
> I'd like to note here that cooler wort can absorb more CO2 and therefore the evolution of CO2 from the wort will also be delayed further than in a warm ferment.


Good point there Seth...  



Les the Weizguy said:


> Nup, it's not false advertising! Both lager and ale yeast (brewing yeast) are now classified as S. cerevisiae.
> 
> Beerz
> Seth



Agree that S. cerevisiae and S.carlsbergensis are brewing yeast - but, IMHO, that's where the similarity ends! S.cerevisiae is a top fermenting yeast typically referred to as an ale yeast. S.carlsbergensis, aka, S.pastorianus is a strain that Hansen named when working in the Carlsberg brewery in the 1880's. S.pastorianus is a hybrid of S.bayanus and S.cerevisiae so they're close but not identical. S.carlsbergensis is usually referred to as a lager yeast and genetic analysis suggests that S.pastorianus is closer to S.bayanus than S.cerevisiae...
Cheers,
TL


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## Back Yard Brewer (11/6/07)

Goo said:


> Seems to have started to take off a bit today.
> 
> Fingers crossed but its got a pretty steady bubbling happening at last. I'll let it chug away for a week then take a reading and see if we've made some progress!
> 
> :super:




I seem to have the same problem at the moment. Made a couple pilsners yesterday and pitched each with a 500ml starter of 2278 wyeast.Its been 24 hrs and no action as yet. The starter was very active before I pitched it. The wort was at around 20 degree's and now with the cold weather it is aroung the 10-14 degree mark. Hopefully it kicks in soon. I would hate to get some sought of infection whilst waiting.

BYB


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