# Rogers Clone



## roger mellie (28/8/07)

Howdy Taxdodgers

I have done a precursory search and found 'not much' traffic on LC Rogers Clones

Any ideas appreciated.

Would be keen to brew one up for inclusion in the Fulchester United Brewing Company Beer ARSEnal.

From Memory its quite a fruity little number with a spicyness - not concerned about its percieved 'lightweightedness' in the ABV stakes.

Just Grainbill and Hops

Cheers

RM


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## Guest Lurker (28/8/07)

I seem to recall Big Al has had a couple of attempts, I tried one at Vlads brew day, but alas have no memory of how close it was, maybe drop him a PM. Roger himself told our brew club meeting he had used a few specialty malts aiming at a red colour, but didnt get exactly the colour he wanted.


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## goatherder (28/8/07)

Good pick RM, I love Rogers. A hugely underrated beer.

My first read of this:

http://www.littlecreatures.com.au/abouthops/

made me think the hops might be the same cascade/chinook combo used in the LCPA. It's nowhere near the same level of aroma as LCPA but is it the same hop varieties? I dunno. At least we know it's whole flowers.

The Rogers beer page hasn't got much info, apart from a "caramel" hint:

http://www.littlecreatures.com.au/rogers/


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## jayse (28/8/07)

This thread Should see you right.


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## roger mellie (30/8/07)

Stainless Conical has arrived from the US :wub: - exactly 400 South Pacific Pesos landed to my door.

So - the christening brew will be a "Rogers Clone"

Looked at the threads - its still a mystery as to what hops they use - so I am going to concentrate on the caramel colour and the midstrength nature and see how it goes. Going to Mash at 70 DegC so hopefuly that helps it finish high.

Plus I have some Nelson Flowers that need using - I love Nelson Flowers!

Comments welcomed.

*Rogers Clone*
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 29/08/2007 
Style: English Ordinary Bitter Brewer: Roger Mellie 
Batch Size: 21.00 L Assistant Brewer: Tom 
Boil Volume: 31.83 L Boil Time: 75 min 

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 78.9 % 
0.30 kg Wheat, Torrified (3.9 EBC) Grain 7.9 % 
0.20 kg Carared (39.4 EBC) Grain 5.3 % 
0.20 kg Dark Crystal (350.0 EBC) Grain 5.3 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 2.6 % 
20.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [7.50%] (60 min) Hops 18.1 IBU 
20.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [7.50%] (10 min) Hops 6.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [7.50%] (5 min) Hops 3.6 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (10 min) Hops 2.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (60 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
20.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [7.50%] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
10.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Windsor Yeast (Lallemand #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.042 SG (1.030-1.038 SG) 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 11.40 L of water at 76.1 C 70.0 C 60 min 

Notes
Mash in with 11.4 L at 76 DegC
Mash out with 8.1 L at 98 DegC
Sparge with 15.5 L at 85 DegC
Total Water 35 Litres

Cheers

RM


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## BigAl (30/8/07)

RM,

I had a crack at it a while back now. I'll see if i can dig out my notes on it, but from memory it looked right, tasted nice, but wasn't quite there on the hops and malt. I think i used EKG hops early and Cascade late to give it that zing in the finish... I'll get back to you.

Your recipe looks interesting. I think the NS hops will give it an interesting flavour. Its one of my favourites at the moment.

I ended up using 1056 yeast, purely because i assumed LC would only have a single ale yeast floating round the brewery.

Im interested in hearing how it goes.


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## Steve (30/8/07)

RM (on the telly).....great looking recipe. Very similar to a few that ive done recently. Ive know idea if it'll be close to Rogers as its been a while since ive had it but it'll be nice. NS flowers are my favourite at the moment too. NS and cascade would be heaven, cant believe I havent tried that combination. One thing I would swap is the Windsor with Nottingham. Windsor is very, very fuity and may be too overpowering.
Cheers
Steve


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## roger mellie (30/8/07)

Steve said:


> RM (on the telly).....great looking recipe. Very similar to a few that ive done recently. Ive know idea if it'll be close to Rogers as its been a while since ive had it but it'll be nice. NS flowers are my favourite at the moment too. NS and cascade would be heaven, cant believe I havent tried that combination. One thing I would swap is the Windsor with Nottingham. Windsor is very, very fuity and may be too overpowering.
> Cheers
> Steve



Thanks Steve and Big Al - I dont have any Nottingham but will substitute for US56 (or Ross's equivalent - American Ale) and save the Windsor for an ESB at at later date.

Might hold back 20gms of flowers for some dry hopping also.

Will report back - looking forward to using this conical. :super: 

RM


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## Steve (30/8/07)

roger mellie said:


> Thanks Steve and Big Al - I dont have any Nottingham but will substitute for US56 (or Ross's equivalent - American Ale) and save the Windsor for an ESB at at later date.
> 
> Might hold back 20gms of flowers for some dry hopping also.
> 
> ...




us56 will do nicely  
Cheers
Steve


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## jimmysuperlative (11/9/07)

Did you do any good with your Roger's recipe, RM?

I'm also looking forward to brewing this one ...Fantastic beer!! :chug:


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## roger mellie (11/9/07)

jimmysuperlative said:


> Did you do any good with your Roger's recipe, RM?
> 
> I'm also looking forward to brewing this one ...Fantastic beer!! :chug:



I wont bore you chapter and verse of the nightmare I had with this. The Mash went perfectly - hit all temps/volumes/gravities...

The wort tasted fantastic - colour was spot on - I reckon that NS (although not in Rogers) did a good job - fruit driven - little bit of spice from the Cascade. Was all looking good - Nottingham did its thing - real quick as usual.

I never got to taste it after that :angry: 

I WILL make it again now I have my conical sorted out. 

And will post the results.

Cheers

RM


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## Doogiechap (11/9/07)

By the sounds of it Roger you won't bore us with the chapter and verse.  
What happened !! :blink: 
My condolences for your loss bloke !
 


roger mellie said:


> I wont bore you chapter and verse of the nightmare I had with this. The Mash went perfectly - hit all temps/volumes/gravities...
> 
> The wort tasted fantastic - colour was spot on - I reckon that NS (although not in Rogers) did a good job - fruit driven - little bit of spice from the Cascade. Was all looking good - Nottingham did its thing - real quick as usual.
> 
> ...


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## jimmysuperlative (12/9/07)

roger mellie said:


> ...The wort tasted fantastic - colour was spot on - I reckon that NS (although not in Rogers) did a good job - fruit driven - little bit of spice from the Cascade. Was all looking good - Nottingham did its thing - real quick as usual.
> 
> I never got to taste it after that :angry: ...
> 
> RM




Wot happened, Brother?


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## randyrob (12/9/07)

roger mellie said:


> I wont bore you chapter and verse of the nightmare I had with this.



yeah i hate it when you leave the ball valve open after a hydro sample.


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## roger mellie (12/9/07)

randyrob said:


> yeah i hate it when you leave the ball valve open after a hydro sample.



That would have made it my fault - which would have been tolerable - still would have been pissed orf - but could have coped with that.

I dont want to say too much on the tribulations I faced - but to cut to the chase - the conical I brought wasnt treated on the inside - it looked clean - smelt clean - sterilised up OK.

But it wasnt passivated - so when I tasted the first sample - all I got was a chromic metallic tang.

Floating around on the surface and the krausen ring was black grit.

The inside of the conical looked like this - where once it was shiny stainless.






The beer went down the sink :angry: seriously it tasted like poison.

After I took it to my local stainless welder bloke - who pickled it and now it looks like this :





The bloke I brought the conical off has been very helpful - infact he has gone above the call of duty - he has sold hundreds of these things and hasnt had an issue like this.

He even offered to pay for the ingredients for the brew I lost.

Moral of the story - stainless aint stainless unless its been passivated.

RM


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## randyrob (12/9/07)

roger mellie said:


> all I got was a chromic metallic tang.



sounds like a review of vb, some ppl pay good money for that taste  

sorry to hear about that, i know what it's like get some new equipment gotto test it out
straigh away expecting the best beer you've ever brewed only to be dissapointed

at least u've posted it up as a warning to the rest of us

cheers mate.

Rob.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/9/07)

YUK so hes done hundreds and he forgot that the welds needed passivating.I wonder how many more are out there that havent been treated. Is it 304 or 316.I have seen stuff in use thats not been passivated but cant remember seeing anything like yours.Could be they put to much heat in around the leg welds as I notice there is no black stuff around the bottom outlet.I would have taken the money for the lost brew.Did you do an import from the US on this.You can PM me if you like.


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## roger mellie (12/9/07)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> YUK so hes done hundreds and he forgot that the welds needed passivating.I wonder how many more are out there that havent been treated. Is it 304 or 316.I have seen stuff in use thats not been passivated but cant remember seeing anything like yours.Could be they put to much heat in around the leg welds as I notice there is no black stuff around the bottom outlet.I would have taken the money for the lost brew.Did you do an import from the US on this.You can PM me if you like.



It is 304 - although not magnetic at all (which 304 can sometimes be - depending on how it is worked)

There was black stuff at the bottom - every weld infact. The racking port had black sludge in it - bearing in mind this was spotless clean before I tipped the wort in. Scrubbed with detergent and a scotch brite - rinsed with boiling water - given the iodoform treatment.

I dont know for certain but these are probably made in some 'cheap labour resource' part of the globe - QC is optional. The outside welds had been acid treated strangely enough.

Should be fine now - and in fairness to the bloke - who is in the US - he has been really helpfull. 

He has sold these units to Australia before - I had checked with one amongst us who had brought one - who had no problems like mine.

The bloke is picking (hoping) that one batch of say 10 units missed out on the passivation treatment.

RM


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/9/07)

Good to see you dumped the stuff asap."Tasted like poision" "Chromic metalic taste"my thoughts exactly. Some other people may have kept on drinking.Chromium toxicity if that is what it was is not some thing you want to happen.Check the web and see what you may have saved your self from.Im a little bit nervous about this sort of thing as I have had chemical poisioning in the past and it still affects me years after the exposure and will for the rest of my life.Best to be very carefull and warn others.
Cheers GB


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## randyrob (12/9/07)

Chromium Toxicity
Chromium enters the air, water, and soil mostly in the chromium (III) and chromium (VI) forms. In air, chromium compounds are present mostly as fine dust particles which eventually settle over land and water. Chromium can strongly attach to soil and only a small amount can dissolve in water and move deeper in the soil to underground water. Fish do not accumulate much chromium in their bodies from water.

Chromium (III)
Chromium (III) is an essential nutrient that helps the body use sugar, protein, and fat. Cr (III) is a very stable oxidation state for chromium. In this state, the chrome is labile and kinetically very slow to react or form complexes. It is not a strong oxidiser and the human's natural body acidity is enough for the chrome to keep to this Cr (III) state. (reference)

Chromium (VI)
Breathing high levels of chromium (VI) can cause irritation to the nose, such as runny nose, nosebleeds, and ulcers and holes in the nasal septum. Ingesting large amounts of chromium (VI) can cause stomach upsets and ulcers, convulsions, kidney and liver damage, and even death. 

Skin contact with certain chromium (VI) compounds can cause skin ulcers. Some people are extremely sensitive to chromium (VI) or chromium (III). Allergic reactions consisting of severe redness and swelling of the skin have been noted.

Cr (VI) is not a very stable state when compared to Cr(III). The Cr (VI) is a very strong oxidizing agent (therefore very fast in reacting, unlike Cr (III) and likely to form complexes). 

The main reason why Cr (VI) is so toxic is that one of the reduction products of Cr (VI) is Cr (V). Chrome (V) is a known carcinogen and will lodge in any tissue to form cancerous growths. There are reports that chromium (V) is also a factor leading to premature senility in parts of Russia. 

In the body, the acidity and action of enzymes on Cr (VI) will promote the formation in small quantities of Cr (V). However, as the size of this is normally too large to be adopted by a tissue, the Cr (V) will pass out. The only place where the Cr (V) is likely to lodge is in some of the fine capillaries in either the kidneys, intestines or lungs. 

During the passage out, Cr (VI) will continue to oxidize anything it can, leaving deposits of the relatively safe Cr (III) and completely unsafe Cr (V) behind. 

How likely is chromium to cause cancer? 
Several studies have shown that chromium (VI) compounds can increase the risk of lung cancer. Animal studies have also shown an increased risk of cancer. The World Health Organization (WHO) has determined that chromium (VI) is a human carcinogen. The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) has determined that certain chromium (VI) compounds are known to cause cancer in humans. The EPA has determined that chromium (VI) in air is a human carcinogen. 

from here:
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Pollution...iumtoxicity.htm


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/9/07)

Thanks Rob
Good info. Now Im really scared.Must passivate Must passivate Must passivate Must passivate Must passivate Must passivate.
Cheers GB


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## randyrob (12/9/07)

another one for this thread.

wiki link on passivation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation

How to passivate stainless steel


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## jimmysuperlative (13/9/07)

roger mellie said:


> That would have made it my fault - which would have been tolerable - still would have been pissed orf - but could have coped with that.
> 
> I dont want to say too much on the tribulations I faced - but to cut to the chase - the conical I brought wasnt treated on the inside - it looked clean - smelt clean - sterilised up OK.
> 
> ...



A tragic turn of events, Roger Mellie !

It sounds as though the tinker you bought it from is a decent chap at least?
Good luck with your future batches. I will also try your recipe for myself.
Thanks


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## roger mellie (13/9/07)

jimmysuperlative said:


> It sounds as though the tinker you bought it from is a decent chap at least?
> Good luck with your future batches. I will also try your recipe for myself.
> Thanks



He is that - very apologetic - cant do enough to help me out. He has sent me a replacement conical free of charge.

I got an email from him yesterday saying that he had also sent me USD32 via paypal to reimburse me for the ingredients I lost - which was nice - as I had emailed him saying that wasnt necessary.

It would appear that there was a manufacturing hiccup with SOME of the latest batch of conicals - not his fault - but he certainly is doing everything to put it right.

As for the Rogers Clone - would be interested to see how it comes out Jimmy - certainly was tasting fine out of the kettle.

I have a Steinlager clone to make before I get back to the Rogers - but as it is my favorite named beer - will do whatever it takes to get it close.

And of course post the results here

Cheers

RM


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## Online Brewing Supplies (13/9/07)

roger mellie said:


> He is that - very apologetic - cant do enough to help me out. He has sent me a replacement conical free of charge.
> 
> I got an email from him yesterday saying that he had also sent me USD32 via paypal to reimburse me for the ingredients I lost - which was nice - as I had emailed him saying that wasnt necessary.
> 
> ...


Can I have the old conical? Im already poisoned. :blink: Best of luck the guy seems like a good fellow and very honest.Boy I like Steinlager too!


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## roger mellie (13/9/07)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Can I have the old conical? Im already poisoned. :blink: Best of luck the guy seems like a good fellow and very honest.Boy I like Steinlager too!



Unfortunatley I am such an honest person myself I think it only right to disable it from circulation by attacking it with a hammer - h34r: 

RM


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## jimmysuperlative (5/11/07)

I've just poured a Roger's clone this afternoon. I based this BIAB beer on RM's recipe, but used chinook pellets to dry hop the primary ...because I was "in a hurry" and short on fermenter space, I dumped onto a skunkfart pale ale yeastcake. Yeast was us56.

Colour and aroma are very close! I reckon my beer is a bit "thin" as I added a couple of litres to the fermenter. (24L)

Taste is maybe not quite there ...but close enough to suggest that this is a Roger's.
Given the "modifications" to RM's recipe, I reckon this one is definitely worth another shot.

I'll be sticking to chinook for dry hopping ...and probably easing back slightly on the bittering additions.

Thanks for the recipe RM. How are you going with attempt number 2?

Cheers, jimmy


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## roger mellie (5/11/07)

jimmysuperlative said:


> I've just poured a Roger's clone this afternoon. I based this BIAB beer on RM's recipe, but used chinook pellets to dry hop the primary ...because I was "in a hurry" and short on fermenter space, I dumped onto a skunkfart pale ale yeastcake. Yeast was us56.
> 
> Colour and aroma are very close! I reckon my beer is a bit "thin" as I added a couple of litres to the fermenter. (24L)
> 
> ...



Jimmy

I too am 'close'

# 2 had too much Chocolate - and too much Chinook - came out tasting like a Coffee flavoured Grapefuit Beer - not in a bad way - but just too much. Actually its bloody nice after 4 weeks CC - but not LC Rogers.

# 3 is much closer - but I have an issue with my filter at the moment so its a bit murky - needs to drop.

Actually - I brought a 6 pack of the LC Rogers as it had been so long since I had tried it. 2 things sprang to mind

1. It is a different beer when drank fresh from the tanks at LC in Freo
2. I dont actually like the bottled version as much.

These are the 'keepers' so far. Well they are my keepers.

Chinook - a little late then a little more Dry. This hop is potent - but Im certain it is the LC 'hopback' hop they use.
Keep Amber away
Not 100% that Chocolate is the grain to be using to adjust the colour - I didnt get any Coffee in the bottled stuff - maybe Dark Crystal? or Caramel Wheat.
I have given up trying to get a 3.8% beer - 4.5 - 5.5 is easier for my setup
US56 is better than Nottingham for this one

I am going to get there - will share all findings.

RM


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## randyrob (6/11/07)

Hey Mate,

nice to see your getting there, my next mash is going to be some sort of amber somewhere along the lines of what your doing, 
Here's the recipe i'm looking at going with:

25. American Amber Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.10
Anticipated OG:  1.056 Plato: 13.75
Anticipated EBC: 24.4
Anticipated IBU: 40.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
86.6 8.75 kg. Ale Malt 1.038 5
5.0 0.50 kg. Medium Crystal Australia 1.035 145
5.0 0.50 kg. Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4 
2.5 0.25 kg. Biscuit Malt Great Britain 1.035 69
1.0 0.10 kg. Chocolate Malt Australia 1.032 750

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.00 14.4 60 min.
25.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 8.90 17.8 60 min.
60.00 g. Cascade Pellet 6.70 8.6 15 min.
60.00 g. Cascade Pellet 6.70 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----
1272 American Ale 2


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## Mothballs (6/11/07)

I am just about to mash in a light AAA in the style of Rogers. While it is not a clone it has similarities to Rogers and is the beer I make the most often and drink the most of. It is based on a recipe of Ross's and I have tinkered with it slightly to suit my tastes. I mash at 70 deg to get full body and flavour while achieving the 3.5 to 3.8% ABV.

Light American Amber Ale AG schedule
No Chill 06-11-2007

Batch size- 42 Lt (into Fermenter 40lt)
Total Bitterness - 24 IBUS
2.2 kg Aust ale malt grain
2.2 kg German Pils malt grain
1.0 kg Light Munich malt grain 
0.6 kg Dark Munich malt grain 
0.5 kg Medium crystal malt grain 
0.3 kg Carapils malt grain
0.2 kg Chocolate malt grain
0.2 kg Caramunich malt grain
(7.2kg total grain)
Bittering hops 31g Cascade pellets (6.7%AA) 
(30 min boil 12 IBU)

Flavour Hops 22g Amarillo pellets (8.9 % AA) 
(15 min boil 7 IBU)
Flavour Hops 22g Cascade pellets (6.7% AA) 
(15 min boil 5 IBU)

Aroma Hops 20g Amarillo hop pellets (8.9 % AA) 
(0 min boil 0 IBU)
Aroma Hops 20g cascade hop pellets (6.7 % AA) 
(0 min boil 0 IBU)

Dry Hop 20g Amarillo hop pellets (8.9 % AA) 
(0 min boil 0 IBU) Add to each keg
Dry Hop 20g cascade hop pellets (6.7 % AA) 
(0 min boil 0 IBU) Add to each keg

1x whirlfloc tablet
US56 ale yeast (repitch on 2nd gen yeastcake from batch 164) 


Cheers
Mothballs


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