# Avoiding Chill Haze Without Polyclar



## manticle (7/3/10)

I have recently started using polyclar to combat chill haze. Works a treat when added correctly (thanks Ross and Chris Taylor for tips).

However I'm of a mind to use less additives, rather than more for my brews. Is there anything I can change in my processes to avoid chill haze proteins developing in the first place?

I realise there's probably a search I could do to satisfy my curiosity (which I am doing anyway) but a few brewers besides me who are new to AG or wanting to move towards it, might also benefit from the advice of experienced brewers. 

Cheers.


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## NickB (7/3/10)

Mate, I was the biggest Polyclar sceptic until I tried it in my beers. Previously, was chilling for a day or two prior to Filtering, and getting a crystal clear beer into the keg, only to have haze appear a few days later. Added polyclar to a decent batch and have no such issue. 

For me, this is HUGE! If a simple addition Of polyclar 24-48 hrs before legging makes that much difference, call me converted! And for what you pay, surely it's a case of just do it?

Cheers


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## Nick JD (7/3/10)

Wasn't Bribie saying that we eat polyclar all the time in all sorts of stuff?


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## manticle (7/3/10)

Don't get me wrong - I use it and have no major problem with it. I'm just wondering if there's a way to accomplish the same by altering mash/boil processes. If particular processes cause chill haze then is there a way to change that?

I'll be using polyclar at least until I find this out and I've noticed no ill effects from it (unlike sulphites for example).


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## bcp (7/3/10)

It's actually a good question. Does polyclar mask some poor practice in the grind, mash or boil?


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## NickB (7/3/10)

I've yet to come across a method that prevents haze in regards to brewing process. If there is a solution, I'll be the first to try it!

I know that I used to get similar results with gelaine prior to me filtering my beers, but it took a few days to clear to the same extent.

I know there was talk on here about polyclar as a kettle addition, but can't recall the outcome ATM!

Cheers

PS: cold conditioning or lagering would yield a similar result but with a wait of a few weeks or so


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## warra48 (7/3/10)

Chill haze is caused by proteins left in the beer, rather than taken out as part of the cold break. It is usually caused by not chilling quickly enough.

The quicker you can cool from boiling to room temperature, the less chill haze you should have.


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## thesunsettree (7/3/10)

warra48 said:


> Chill haze is caused by proteins left in the beer, rather than taken out as part of the cold break. It is usually caused by not chilling quickly enough.
> 
> The quicker you can cool from boiling to room temperature, the less chill haze you should have.




hi warra,

how does that equate to no chill?

cheers 
matt


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## manticle (7/3/10)

So no chill has no chance?

I've been no chilling recently but will be building myself a copper immersion chiller soonish. I'll try and do a comparison with the same beer brewed on the same day in two separate batches.


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## jetfoley (7/3/10)

For my Partial grains kit recipes I add a 3kg bag of ice to the hot wort, and they always end up clear as buggery (i also use gelatine/finnings and cold conditioning) and yet to get an infection.

Cant help you for all grain recipes as I dont have the correct setup for that. But I'm sure a bag or 2 of ice in the laundry tub plus water, would make a great ice bath for the kettle to cool it. Thats what I plan to do (in Brisbane our tap water is 30C anyways so an imersion chiller would be useless).


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## NickB (7/3/10)

Pretty sure kit beers don't suffer from chill haze anyway. Prepared to be corrected though!

Cheers


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## bcp (7/3/10)

My quick search suggests three preventatives before you resort to finings:



Avoid hot-side aeration (i know, some are sceptical, but interesting article with a pedigree behind it) http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...r/HSAmash.shtml
Boil it hard and chill quickly, as suggested.
Protein rest (allowing enzymes to break down the proteins, or made insoluble by reactions with other compounds)
http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...quer-chill-haze
The last article seems to point to no chill in particular as being more difficult to avoid chill haze.

But that's just a quick search from someone who admits i'm barely beginning to understand all this. Interested to hear other perspectives.


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## browndog (7/3/10)

I chill and no-chill as the mood takes me. I went through a period of filtering and using polyclar but these days I just use gelatine and end up with bright beer. As for chill haze, I believe it all relates to your boil, I boil hard for 75 mins and I think this is the reason I don't have problems with chill haze. I have had a problem with it but it was only when dry hopping with 100g of hops so I don't count that. When my beer has reached terminal gravity I drop the temp down to 2C for a week, the day before kegging I add a 250ml of water with a teaspoon of gelatine to the fermenter. The next day I keg and add another 250ml with a teaspoon of gelatine to the keg. Connect the gas up at 300kpa and leave it for 24hrs. A couple of pints later the beer is clear as you could want. As I said though, I believe the secret is a strong boil.

cheers

Browndog

PS Clarity is the same regardless of chill or no-chill.


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## alford_j (7/3/10)

I have been using polyclar for all my beers for the last 8 batches. I was very happy with the results. I got a gusher bug in my second last batch and stopped any additional fiddling with beers till I got the bug sorted which meant no polyclar. 

The last beer I made was an AG english IPA which I chilled with an immersion chiller, didn't rack to secondary and cold conditioned for only 3 days and it came out very clear. Not 100% crystal clear but very good. You certainly wouldn't bother using polyclar in the IPA but other batches didn't look so good in the glass, hence my use of polyclar in the first place. 

The steps I did differently to other batches were: 

1) I did a 2 hr boil 
2) didn't use whirlfloc
3) after the brew cooled to 30C with the immersion chiller I used iced water and a pump to chill to 19C. Bulk of the cooling was similar to usual, but finished cooling in the kettle, not in the fermenter in the fridge.
4) did a small amount of stirring during cooling to even out the temp of the cooling wort
5) Didn't rack to secondary

Too many variables to figure out what it is, plus different recipe etc. Looks like I did a few things to help it clear, but a few thing that would hinder clearing too. Any similarities in other people's experience?

Alfie


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## Thirsty Boy (8/3/10)

All the suggestions will help - a little - but chill haze is one of the reasons lager beers are lagered - time and gravity are the main non additive fixes, and pretty much always have been. Causes will largely be raw material related with a little process tossed in. I personally believe that rapid chilling has bugger all to do with it (final temperature of the chill does) and that an adequate boil is as good as an over the top boil. Others obviously differ.

Pretty much... but obviously not always ... everyone gets a bit of chill haze, because mostly we all drink our beers too damn cold. We chill them down to the levels that high adjunct mega lagers are served... and _they_ all have lower protein levels and still get chill haze unless they are treated anyway. An all malt beer with no treatment chilled to that level has stuff all chance.

Now if we were to drink our beers at a nice civilized 7-8degrees for a pale lager and warmer for everything else.... it might not be an issue at all. If you see chill haze in your ales.. its your own damn fault for drinking them too cold.


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## manticle (8/3/10)

So if I cold condition my beers for longer I can avoid this?

Most beers I'm happy to serve between 5 and 10 degrees as I'm not a fan of superchilled fizz. It's just been during summer that I've noticed this problem of haze (and hence started using polyclar) as normally I just grab my beer from the shed during autumn/winter. If it tastes bad, you'll know it if it's above 5 degrees. If it's good then you brewed well.

During summer, the beers would gush if opened without chilling first and tasted nice but warm. I like beer above 5 degrees but actually 'warm' is not pleasant.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/3/10)

Its just gravity manticle - cold condition, chill haze forms, chill haze falls to the bottom, you take clear haze free beer off the top and put it in your keg. There is almost nothing that any of the brewing additives or process aids do, that cant eventually be achieved with time and gravity - its just a matter of whether you have the time, patience and tank space to wait long enough.

I just flipped through Michael Jackson's "Great Beer Guide" - the lowest recommended serving temperature out of 500 beers featured - was 9C for the lightest beers, with 10-15 for the majority of the ales with any colour -- up to 18 (max) for a Chimay Grand Reserve.

Distinctly less chill haze at 9 than at the 2 or 3 a lot of people are pouring at.


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## Pete2501 (8/3/10)

TB is right Manticle. You should let me drink your beer instead.


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## katzke (8/3/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> ... everyone gets a bit of chill haze, because mostly we all drink our beers too damn cold. We chill them down to the levels that high adjunct mega lagers are served... and _they_ all have lower protein levels and still get chill haze unless they are treated anyway.




The reason mega beer is served cold is because it tastes awful when served at the correct temperature. The cold kills the flavor.

One reason why I enjoy what most people think of as warm beer. It tastes better.


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## Hutch (8/3/10)

Also agree with TB here. I've polyclared before, but don't like the extra step and potential way to screw up a brew. I recently forgot the whirlfloc in a Dortmunder, and it was cloudy as milk when I kegged it. 1 month lagering at -1deg made it crystal clear with no filtering at all. OK, so it takes time and low temps, but for lagers, this is preferable anyway.


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## manticle (8/3/10)

katzke said:


> The reason mega beer is served cold is because it tastes awful when served at the correct temperature. The cold kills the flavor.
> 
> One reason why I enjoy what most people think of as warm beer. It tastes better.



Agreed. To me the sign of a good beer is that it tastes nice above 5-10 degrees. When I make a good one, mine do. I only chill my beers at all in the fiercer heat of summer and this is my first summer of AG brewing. Beer under 40 degree sun (admittedly inside a shed but still hot) tastes ok but the feel/texture of it that warm is not ok. Also it tends to gush when I open the bottle and occasionally you do need tits freezing refreshing in that weather.

Thanks for that explanation Thirsty Boy. I cold condition all my beers for around a week. If I had a walk in coolroom I could do more for longer but I'll have a crack at extending the CC period when my stocks are plentiful and I can afford the fridge space.


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## Asher (8/3/10)

Get your Calcium levels up.

For protein to coagulate well you need adequate calcium..... then Chill B)


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## Kai (8/3/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I just flipped through Michael Jackson's "Great Beer Guide" - the lowest recommended serving temperature out of 500 beers featured - was 9C for the lightest beers, with 10-15 for the majority of the ales with any colour -- up to 18 (max) for a Chimay Grand Reserve.



While I agree that beers are often served too cold, I think it pays to step away and think here for a minute. What was Michael Jackson? A pom. What is England? Bloody freezing.

I would never serve beer as warm as 9C on a 40C day. Once it's in a glass you can warm your beer up but you certainly can't cool it down again.

I agree that a solid boil and a cold chill is the best recipe for minimising chill haze without additives. I used to boil the guts out of 20-25L batches in a 60L pot then would chill in a cube on wintry nights in the Adelaide Hills (-3 to 5C). That with a week of cold conditioning post-ferment was usually a recipe for a fairly clear beer at fridge temp.


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## Nick JD (8/3/10)

"Removes polyphenolic compounds and oxidised melanoidins. This means that when used in beer it will remove haze-causing husk tannins and oxidised compounds that contribute to off flavours."


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## BjornJ (8/3/10)

Reading the article BCP linked to on byo.com gives good information: 
http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...quer-chill-haze 


But it also says No Chill beers would all have chill haze :

_After chilling and a good cold break rest (for about two hours), the clear wort can be siphoned or poured into a primary fermenter, leaving cold trub and haze-forming compounds behind. _ _Unfortunately, this effect is lost if the wort is cooled slowly. Many homebrewers let the boiling wort cool overnight in a sealed, sanitized container, then pitch yeast the next day. When this is done, the beer will always have a chill haze because the haze-forming compounds will have remained in solution._

Now that isn't true, is it? 


Thanks
Bjorn


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## Bribie G (8/3/10)

BjornJ said:


> Reading the article BCP linked to on byo.com gives good information:
> http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...quer-chill-haze
> 
> 
> ...



Probably only true in the Northern Hemisphere  

My default kegmate temperature setting when I've got a selection of ales and lagers on tap




_Genuine recycled BribieG Photo:_


This one was no chilled and I didn't even bother cold conditioning it, I kegged it straight out of primary because I thought it was going to be a failure - so didn't gelatine or polyclar it either, turned out a wee ripper (Irish Red).


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## The Scientist (8/3/10)

BjornJ said:


> Reading the article BCP linked to on byo.com gives good information:
> http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...quer-chill-haze
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I no chill all the time and with the addition of gelatine my beers are crystal clear. So if gelatine only removes the yeast in suspension then I should be left with chill haze. So I'd have to say that theory is busted.

I boil like hell for at least 60min and would have to say it was this which is breaking down the proteins and leaving me with a clear beer. I even let a fair amount of break matter go into both my no chill cube and even fermenter, so the above is no science or non-sense if you will
 

Cheers TS :icon_cheers:


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## haysie (8/3/10)

The Scientist said:


> Well, I no chill all the time and with the addition of gelatine my beers are crystal clear. So if gelatine only removes the yeast in suspension then I should be left with chill haze. So I'd have to say that theory is busted.
> 
> I boil like hell for at least 60min and would have to say it was this which is breaking down the proteins and leaving me with a clear beer. I even let a fair amount of break matter go into both my no chill cube and even fermenter, so the above is no science or non-sense if you will
> 
> ...




Exactly the same method, with a minimum 48 hrs c/c @ 2deg, then a week or 2 in the keg @ approx 5deg before cracking. Good beers most of the time, always clean n clear.

edit, did try the polyclar in both the boil and the fermenter, I didnt see any difference and for mine it wasnt worth the extra step in _my_ brewing process


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## Bribie G (8/3/10)

Turning the argument on its head then beers from commercial breweries - where they quite obviously don't no-chill in cubes - should be free of chill haze. On my last visit to the Platform Bar, none of the beers were crystal clear apart from the James Squire offerings, the rest (Sunshine Coast, Wood & Stone, etc) were chill hazed. Of course being a pub they were being poured at their default temperature i.e. mind numbingly cold. 
However TB once posted details of the different substances that CUB use to clear and filter their beers and there was everything on the list apart from eye of newt and wing of bat. I guess the James Squire beers had received the full treatment, well they are a real brewery after all B)


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## altstart (8/3/10)

haysie said:


> Exactly the same method, with a minimum 48 hrs c/c @ 2deg, then a week or 2 in the keg @ approx 5deg before cracking. Good beers most of the time, always clean n clear.
> 
> edit, did try the polyclar in both the boil and the fermenter, I didnt see any difference and for mine it wasnt worth the extra step in _my_ brewing process



No good adding Polyclar to the boil you need Brewbrite it is made by ISP who make Polyclar. Brewbrite is designed to remove chill haze by adding the correcct amount to the last 15 mins of the boil. There are several threads on here use the search function on Brewbrite it really works.
Cheers Altstart


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## TidalPete (8/3/10)

Hey Jim,

How long have you been using Brewbrite?
Apparently CraftBrewer decided against stocking this stuff due to the short shelf life (6 months I think they said?)
Do you find it's still ok after a longer period?

T


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## daemon (8/3/10)

BribieG said:


> On my last visit to the Platform Bar, none of the beers were crystal clear apart from the James Squire offerings, the rest (Sunshine Coast, Wood & Stone, etc) were chill hazed. Of course being a pub they were being poured at their default temperature i.e. mind numbingly cold.


If it's the Draught Ale from Stone and Wood then it should be hazy as it contains raw wheat. Not sure what the process is at the Sunshine Coast but like many little micro-breweries I'd rather drink the unfiltered, unpasteurised versions that have plenty of flavour  

I've been simplifying some of my processes recently and ignoring some of the visual aspects of the end product. While I'll admit it's nice to take a photo of a crystal clear beer, the only time I can personally taste a difference is when it's yeast still suspended. I've gone back just the one fermenter (no racking) for most of my beers over the last 6 months and the last few haven't worried about gelatin or polyclar. Since time is a bigger factor, I simply ferment for 10 days, chill to 2c in primary for 2-3 days (3 second job to change the fridgemate) and keg. Less time, less cleaning and less chance to introduce problems rather than solving them.

Most are reasonably clear within a week, chill haze only within two weeks and even it will drop out in roughly 4 weeks if chilled (and if they last that long!). It's not as quick as using Gelatin and Polyclar, however it cuts down in time and cleaning which suits me better.


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## Kai (8/3/10)

Stone and Wood Draught Ale is meant to be hazy, and most of the haze is from yeast. Leave a keg of it to settle for a couple days and it will drop quite bright


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## altstart (8/3/10)

TidalPete said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> How long have you been using Brewbrite?
> Apparently CraftBrewer decided against stocking this stuff due to the short shelf life (6 months I think they said?)
> ...



G'day Pete
I have had a kilo of this stuff for well over a year and it is a bloody brilliant product. As for the use by date from personal experience mine is as good as the day I opened the pack. I believe the manufacturer has now deleted the use by date from the product. Whatever grainbill I have used this with the result is no chill haze and it is so easy to use. The only problem is obtaining it retailers dont seem interested in stocking it.


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## JonnyAnchovy (8/3/10)

I know the clear vs cloudy thing has been done to death, But I really think haze adds aesthetically to some types of beer. 

In purely aesthetic terms I totally agree haze is a little offputting in lagers, but for a massive hoppy IIPA (or any ale really) I think slight haze actually enhances the visual quality of the beer - makes it feel more unrefined and 'crafty'. Besides that, I find myself brewing mostly APAs and IPAs now, and dry hopping the bejezus out of them, so true brightness is difficult to achieve.

The correlation between chill haze and shelf life is of course another matter entirely....


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## manticle (8/3/10)

Main reason for the original post is understanding process.

That said if there's stuff making the beer cloudy, it's likely to have an effect on something important like flavour. That may be a good thing as in yeast in a hefe, or hop oils in an AIPA or it may be a bad thing (as in starch haze) - obviously depending on style, personal preference etc.


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## TidalPete (8/3/10)

altstart said:


> G'day Pete
> I have had a kilo of this stuff for well over a year and it is a bloody brilliant product. As for the use by date from personal experience mine is as good as the day I opened the pack. I believe the manufacturer has now deleted the use by date from the product. Whatever grainbill I have used this with the result is no chill haze and it is so easy to use. The only problem is obtaining it retailers dont seem interested in stocking it.



Don't suppose you could tell me where you got yours from & how much per kilo? If you don't want the world to know a PM will do.   

T


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## JonnyAnchovy (8/3/10)

OP is actually a really good question. I recon a lot of us harbor a desire to eliminate as many additives as possible and make the most 'natural' beer we can.


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## Nick JD (8/3/10)

There's a reason commercial breweries remove the crud from their beers by filtration ... it makes the shelf life short.


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## haysie (8/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> There's a reason commercial breweries remove the crud from their beers by filtration ... it makes the shelf life short.



Come in spinner " Whys that Nick?"


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## rude (9/3/10)

Im all for all natural beers.

Theres no way Im putting fish guts in my beers.

Spose grain bill & yeast selection makes a big difference.

Allso someone sugested calsium how do you get them up Big Ash I know bugger all about water chem.

I have never cc might chuck the food out of the fridge & give it a go, when the missus & kids are away someday that is.


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## katzke (9/3/10)

rude said:


> Im all for all natural beers.
> 
> Theres no way Im putting fish guts in my beers.
> 
> ...



Fish guts are natural, so is seaweed.

Lots of good interesting info to think about and research more.


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## bcp (9/3/10)

katzke said:


> Fish guts are natural, so is seaweed.
> 
> Lots of good interesting info to think about and research more.



So is dog hair and mercury.


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## glaab (9/3/10)

I've read in a few places that a protein rest reduces chill haze. I always assumed that was the reason BS adds a rest to your mash schedule by default, no?


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## Nick JD (9/3/10)

haysie said:


> Come in spinner " Whys that Nick?"



The oxidisation products of polyphenols (chill haze) are not tasty.


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## kevin_smevin (9/3/10)

Add 100ppm Ca with either Calcium Chloride or Calcium Sulfate to your mash. Part per million (ppm) is mg/L.


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## rude (9/3/10)

yum yum yum said:


> Add 100ppm Ca with either Calcium Chloride or Calcium Sulfate to your mash. Part per million (ppm) is mg/L.



Thanks for that mate


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## Fantoman (9/3/10)

rude said:


> Im all for all natural beers.
> 
> Theres no way Im putting fish guts in my beers.



Yet, there are plenty of people who have no problem putting cow hoofs/cartlidge in their beer (gelatine).

I use isinglass (fish guts) as I didn't get good results with gelatine and find it works quite well in dropping haze as well... Only have to use 1/2 teaspoon per keg...


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## Scruffy (9/3/10)

Anyone tried Bentonite? Not fish. Not Hoof. Clay.

Was meaning to try it in the UK, moved to Oz and completely forgot 'till this thread reminded me!


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## muckanic (10/3/10)

bcp said:


> It's actually a good question. Does polyclar mask some poor practice in the grind, mash or boil?



According to Dave Miller, many home brews are so badly oxidised that polyclar will lighten the colour substantially. He's mainly referring to hot side aeration (controvery alert!), but there's an interesting question of whether polyclar would correct the effect of cheapo, oxidised liquid extract. In a side-by-side comparison, I have found that it slightly lightened the colour, and slightly freshened the flavour, of one of my brews that had a prolonged secondary in a less than airtight fermenter. That's something that gelatine or isinglass can't be expected to do. If you don't mind additives, and are planning to cold crash anyway, then I personally regard polyclar as "why not?" insurance. On the other hand, with some of the other finings I can think of a couple of why-nots, mainly to do with the fact that their effects are not nearly as specific as those of polyclar.


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## Nick JD (10/3/10)

muckanic said:


> According to Dave Miller, many home brews are so badly oxidised that polyclar will lighten the colour substantially. He's mainly referring to hot side aeration (controvery alert!), but there's an interesting question of whether polyclar would correct the effect of cheapo, oxidised liquid extract. In a side-by-side comparison, I have found that it slightly lightened the colour, and slightly freshened the flavour, of one of my brews that had a prolonged secondary in a less than airtight fermenter. That's something that gelatine or isinglass can't be expected to do. If you don't mind additives, and are planning to cold crash anyway, then I personally regard polyclar as "why not?" insurance. On the other hand, with some of the other finings I can think of a couple of why-nots, mainly to do with the fact that their effects are not nearly as specific as those of polyclar.



My completely retarded way of making beer avoids all HSA through laziness! B)


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## pyrobrewer (10/3/10)

manticle said:


> I have recently started using polyclar to combat chill haze. Works a treat when added correctly (thanks Ross and Chris Taylor for tips).
> 
> However I'm of a mind to use less additives, rather than more for my brews. Is there anything I can change in my processes to avoid chill haze proteins developing in the first place?
> 
> ...



Try Dr. Bamforth's Lecture on chill haze
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/572


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## pyrobrewer (10/3/10)

manticle said:


> I have recently started using polyclar to combat chill haze. Works a treat when added correctly (thanks Ross and Chris Taylor for tips).
> 
> However I'm of a mind to use less additives, rather than more for my brews. Is there anything I can change in my processes to avoid chill haze proteins developing in the first place?
> 
> ...



Poly clar is basicly a shredded plastic and should be completely removed by your filter - therfore no additive


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## manticle (10/3/10)

What filter would that be?

Cheers for the link


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## pyrobrewer (10/3/10)

manticle said:


> What filter would that be?
> 
> Cheers for the link



You could try this one

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/default.asp?CID=14


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## manticle (10/3/10)

Many other things on my to buy list before I even think about a filter. It's not really high on my priority list at all.


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## pyrobrewer (10/3/10)

manticle said:


> Many other things on my to buy list before I even think about a filter. It's not really high on my priority list at all.



I agree chill haze has no affect on flavour!!


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## bum (10/3/10)

I agree conclusions have nothing to do with the statements they are drawn from.


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## Kai (10/3/10)

manticle said:


> What filter would that be?
> 
> Cheers for the link



And if you don't filter (which I don't), polyclar will sediment out anyway. It's what finings do.


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## glaab (16/3/10)




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