# Bitterness aint bitterness sol.....



## Goose (1/12/14)

Visited my local craft brewery last week and was chatting to the head brewer about hops in general... to cut to the chase I was a bit surprised when he told me that to bitter a beer with anything other that the lowest cost AA% by weight hop was a waste because at 60+ mins boiling everything aroma and flavour wise just evaporates away.... which meant he used Hercules for bittering at around 17% AA for every beer he produced but only the lower AA hop varieties for aroma and flavour later in the boil.

Now I question whether bitterness is just bitterness.... is there a different kind of bitterness associated with different hops. If you ask me I reckon there _is_ a difference. His Pils had a kind of harsh bitterness to me... not soft. So my limited abilities confine my description to hard and soft...bitterness.

So, is it a waste to use hops for bittering if they aint mega AA% ? Interested in your views...


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## manticle (1/12/14)

I disagree strongly with the notion. For larger quantities (ie commercial quantities) it makes economic sense to try and get the most from the least (although they have isohop extract for that) but there are some high aa hops that are more neutral than others.

However hop chemistry is so much more than isomerised alpha acids and bitterness units. The longer you boil, the more the fragrant/aromatic compounds are reduced but they are still distinguishable in many instances. Add to that things like resinous mouthfeel etc (eg- chinook which will be appropriate in some beers, less in others).

Try any beer with a single hop addition at 60 minutes only and I guarantee a discerning palate should pick out some hop character. Pride of ringwood for example will differ markedly from centennial in a beer that is otherwise the same. The fact that you find this brewer's pils harsh suggests he has an incomplete understanding of what hops bring to the party or he is just in denial.

Try a beer with a good dose of low aa noble hops at 60 only by contrast - beautiful, smooth bittering.


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## Blind Dog (1/12/14)

That bittering hops boiled for 60 minutes or so add little to nothing except bitterness is an oft repeated myth. Try making an English bitter with EKG at 60, 30 and flame out then try it again with everything the same but chinook as the bittering hop to the same ibu. Then the next time someone tells you this you'll know they're talking rubbish. 

As Manticle (or Nantucket according to my auto spell check!) said, if you can taste a harsh bitterness in the brewery's pils then they're doing something wrong and their gung-ho attitude to hops is probably why


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## droid (1/12/14)

yes the only way to answer this and know for yourself rather than believe what someone else tells you is to do a few small DME boils with one style of hops in each pot, then know the answer to your question you will, do a blind tasting with some others and ask if they can taste a difference

I am doing single hop ales and have been trying every ale hop and some others for a few months now in small batches, mostly strong ales, all notes taken, never learnt so much about each hop flavour profile before as now when they are singled out, which also makes the od dual purpose hop a hit for such things

I figure in a year or so I will be up to date with all the ale hop profiles ~ since ale is my thang

maybe you could do the bitterness experiment and we can swap notes - he he

<edit> sorry that's pale ales, ipa's and big ales not all ales as the lazy typo bastardos above might have led you to believe


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## beerfarmer (2/12/14)

There's a difference for sure in bitterness. Some brewers like to use hops low in cohumulone as these are said to give a smoother bitterness. And very true of pride ringwood. I find the rough bitterness from this hop very assertive, but pleasant when done well to style.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (2/12/14)

Coopers pale ale versus VB would be a good commercial example


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## Dan Pratt (2/12/14)

gee whiz...only using low AA hops for late kettle additions and only bitters with 17% Hercules 

I get the high AA for bittering from a cost factor but god they are missing out on some serious late kettle hops choices for flavour and aroma.

My personal fav late in the kettle that are all > 9% AA;

Simcoe
Galaxy
Citra
Centennial
Chinook
Amarillo

Mind if I ask, which brewery is it?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (2/12/14)

Pratty1 said:


> Mind if I ask, which brewery is it?


+1 even the state so I know where not to look for finely bitter beer .


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## Blind Dog (2/12/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> +1 even the state so I know where not to look for finely bitter beer .


+1 (or is it +2 now?) even if its just to know what to avoid, although to be honest I'm tempeted to try a couple. Don't know why, I just am

(edit: clarity)


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## Goose (2/12/14)

Relax lads. Unless there are some crafty yet frugal brewers in Australia you wont find it down under 

I'm one of the few overseas members..... yet surprisingly the same brewing principles apply north of the equator as they do south. Funny that. :lol:

I do appreciate the answers though, they do corroborate my own views.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (2/12/14)

Goose said:


> Relax lads. Unless there are some crafty yet frugal brewers in Australia you wont find it down under
> 
> I'm one of the few overseas members..... yet surprisingly the same brewing principles apply north of the equator as they do south. Funny that. :lol:
> 
> I do appreciate the answers though, they do corroborate my own views.


Great at least I not so worried now.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (3/12/14)

Goose said:


> the same brewing principles apply north of the equator as they do south. Funny that. :lol.


Don't you have to whirlpool anti-clockwise???


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## n87 (3/12/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Don't you have to whirlpool anti-clockwise???


NO!

If you do that, all the wort will fall out the top!


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## pcmfisher (3/12/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Coopers pale ale versus VB would be a good commercial example


Either of them use hops?


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## mje1980 (3/12/14)

I find it hard to pick out individual flavours from 60 minute hops. I have in the past done similar to the brewer mentioned, used high aa hops for 60 and the better ones for aroma and flavour. I found that some high aa hops could give a harsh bitterness, but some weren't too bad. Pacific gem was a cracker for me, high aa but smooth bitterness. Now I use bugger all hops so generally try to use high quality flavour hops for all my beers. 

I also don't really do hop bulk buys anymore, as I'd rather pay a bit more than have 8kg of hops in the freezer that stay in there for 2 years haha.

Although I have just bought a kilo of saaz


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## Goose (3/12/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Don't you have to whirlpool anti-clockwise???


That is correct. So I wonder how you brew on the equator ?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (3/12/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Either of them use hops?


Pride of Ringwood if you believe the bottle caps!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (3/12/14)

Goose said:


> That is correct. So I wonder how you brew on the equator ?


In a state of panic and confusion!


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## beerfarmer (8/12/14)

I've been wondering if there is an optimal whirlpool direction for downunder after remembering the dunnies in Canada swirling opposite to here. I go clockwise out of habit but feel its best to go with the grain, so to speak.


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## Dan Pratt (8/12/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> +1 even the state so I know where not to look for finely bitter beer .


Ahh just read Singapore....

Id still like to know the name of it, my brother lives in Singapore and we are doing a 2 day visit next year as part of another trip.


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## Goose (8/12/14)

Brewerks, Clark Quay.


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## Trevandjo (9/12/14)

Brewerks (IMHO) is still worth a visit if your in Singas. They have a decent selection of US craft beers and the food isn't bad either.


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## Spiesy (9/12/14)

Goose said:


> Visited my local craft brewery last week and was chatting to the head brewer about hops in general... to cut to the chase I was a bit surprised when he told me that to bitter a beer with anything other that the lowest cost AA% by weight hop was a waste because at 60+ mins boiling everything aroma and flavour wise just evaporates away.... which meant he used Hercules for bittering at around 17% AA for every beer he produced but only the lower AA hop varieties for aroma and flavour later in the boil.
> 
> Now I question whether bitterness is just bitterness.... is there a different kind of bitterness associated with different hops. If you ask me I reckon there _is_ a difference. His Pils had a kind of harsh bitterness to me... not soft. So my limited abilities confine my description to hard and soft...bitterness.
> 
> So, is it a waste to use hops for bittering if they aint mega AA% ? Interested in your views...


Went to a GBW night at Clifton Hill Brewpub this year and was told the same thing. 

I also disagree. 

There are different "types" of bitterness, I've found.


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## Mardoo (9/12/14)

Hence the interest in cohumulone levels, which are said to contribute a harshness to bitterness when a hop has high cohumulone levels. From my experience I'd have to agree.

Experience tells me there are absolutely different types of bitterness, but I myself can't say that with scientific veracity.


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