# Monosodium Glutamate Thread



## Bribie G (19/11/15)

I love MSG. Much vilified, it's really just the sodium salt of Glutamic Acid, one of the range of Amino Acids in your body and the bodies of tomatoes, Parmesan Cheese, mushrooms etc etc.

A lovely flavour enhancer but, of course used in excess it gives a one dimensional Umami character to dishes. Where appropriate I add just a "finger tip" pinch.

The jar in the photo has been doing me proud since 2008 - it was originally 500g from an Asian supermarket in Brisbane.

The reason I drew the skull and crossbones on it was because my stepdaughter once mistook it for sugar, put two teaspoons in coffee, and it took me half a day to wipe the spit marks off the walls.

Anyway, **** you Gravox Brown Onion Gravy, just a pinch lifted my Kyogle Butchery thick snags and gravy and mash and a token green to glorious levels B)


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## Eagleburger (19/11/15)

Got a jar in the cupboard here too. I remember sprinkling it on raw sausage sandwiches as a kid. Proper sausages that is.


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## roastinrich (19/11/15)

MSG gives me nightmares and I wake up in the middle of the night with a dry mouth. My Brother-in-law uses Vegeta which is loaded with MSG on his pork roast. I never sleep well after his pork roast.


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## S.E (19/11/15)

Eagleburger said:


> Got a jar in the cupboard here too. I remember sprinkling it on raw sausage sandwiches as a kid. Proper sausages that is.


You eat raw sausages? Are we talking pork, beef or what?


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## Crakkers (19/11/15)

I love the stuff too. I use it in all sorts of things - scrambled eggs/omelettes, fish, soups, casseroles, etc.
I buy it in 1kg bags which last me 2 - 3 years.
It's probably the most studied food additive in the world, with not a single study linking it to the headaches and other irritations that people claim to get from it.
That Gravox tin probably claims that it has no added MSG, but I'll bet it contains "yeast extract" which is chemically identical to MSG when mixed with water.
"Hydrolysed vegetable protein" is another one. Food labelling standards only require it to be called MSG ( or E621) if it is refined to 99% or higher.
So that's how the food industry gets around all the unjustified hysteria surrounding it, and anyone claiming to be allergic to MSG is full of shit.


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## Dave70 (20/11/15)

Just be sure keep one of these on standby in case you need to get stabby.
Leave it on the table to reassure your guests you care.


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## Nick the Knife (20/11/15)

I agree completely, when used PROPERLY MSG is an invaluable addition to most folks kitchen pantry. Alas like much of the western world we've adopted a bit of a 'sheep herd' mentality with people swearing off it like it's asbestos or nuclear waste (though the same folks likely end up unwittingly consuming plenty of it via the plethora of products it's already in & widespread restaurant use).

I saw an excellent BBC docu on MSG and in short the findings of it were:
1. A small % of the population has a negative reaction to it - I think it was estimated at around 3-5% and generally this wasn't a life threatening one just an 'unpleasant' one.
2. It absolutely made the vast majority of savoury foods taste better when used in the correct amounts (they blind tested this and almost 100% agreement)
3. Using the right amount was critical as overuse lead to that prickly mouth feel and folks waking up needing water etc

No Asian household's kitchen would be without it and I use it in a load of dishes in very small amounts. Cheap as chips at any Asian grocery store & definitely a great product IF used correctly.


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## Bribie G (20/11/15)

Dave70 said:


> Just be sure keep one of these on standby in case you need to get stabby.
> Leave it on the table to reassure your guests you care.


Is that the one that only works if it's injected directly into the heart muscle, preferably by Nicolas Cage?

MSG reminds me a lot of gluten. The herd thinks that gluten is some sort of poison, because it sounds like "glue" or "glutinous" like the Blob or something.

Being, quite simply, the protein found it wheat it may not be the absolute best for human consumption as opposed to eggs or nice piggy meat but if gluten magically disappeared tomorrow, probably a billion people around the planet would be dead in a month.


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## sponge (20/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> Is that the one that only works if it's injected directly into the heart muscle, preferably by *Nicolas Cage*?


Face/Off can alter one's memory sometimes


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## BrutusB (20/11/15)

Would anyone consider putting into a brew?


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## Dave70 (20/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> Is that the one that only works if it's injected directly into the heart muscle, preferably by Nicolas Cage?


I thought it was John Travolta..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQ-BpO4Gzo


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## Danscraftbeer (20/11/15)

I'd rather the natural and safer method of flavour enhancing. Chemical powdered concentrations are unsafe. and I don't even have kids.


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## Robbo2234 (21/11/15)

Wasn't there a thread about fermenting apple juice and msg?


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## MHB (21/11/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I'd rather the natural and safer method of flavour enhancing. Chemical powdered concentrations are unsafe. and I don't even have kids.


I'm quite happy to use chemically pure Calcium Chloride or Sulphate in my brewing, would even rather brew in chemically pure water, given the choice between that and something full of very natural muck.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with "chemicals" Household Sugar and Salt are so close to chemically pure it doesn't matter, yet we use them as both flavours and flavour enhancers on a daily basis. Too much MSG is probably not a good choice, same applies to Sugar and Salt.
Remember that most of the MSG made is produced by Bacteria acting on Sugar so there is a pretty good argument that it isn't a "Synthesised" chemical anyway.
Personally I think used with restraint it can be a benefit well if not then at a minimum benign and enjoyable
Mark


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## Bribie G (21/11/15)

Elderly lady friend is a bit of a late hippie and constantly moans about the evil modern world, and in particular the widespread use of "chemicals" .. she refuses to use the likes of Spray n Wipe, laundry detergents, or Windex.

Instead she has a barrage of traditional cleaning concoctions that she has inherited from other old ladies over the decades and she is proud of the fact that there are no "chemicals" in her home.

Clothes are washed in Nature's Dolphin laundry liquid or some such pale green stuff that probably comes out of the same vat as Surf.

Cleaning of most surfaces is done with a mixture of cloudy ammonia (NH5O)and vinegar (CH3CO2H) 
Cleaning of fridges and many other items involves liberal application of Sodium Bicarbonate. I recently gave her some Sodium Percarbonate to soak her tea towels and when I explained that it's just plain old washing soda with some extra oxygen, she was delighted that it's not a "chemical" so good to go.

I really don't have the heart to tell her, but this seems to be a widespread mindset, possibly related to decades of pretty abysmal teaching of science in Australian schools.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> Cleaning of most surfaces is done with a mixture of cloudy ammonia (NH5O)and vinegar (CH3CO2H)


Add some blue dye...BAM...Windex


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## Bribie G (21/11/15)

Blue rinse?


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## goatchop41 (21/11/15)

roastin said:


> MSG gives me nightmares and I wake up in the middle of the night with a dry mouth. My Brother-in-law uses Vegeta which is loaded with MSG on his pork roast. I never sleep well after his pork roast.


Do you get this when you eat things with a lot of parmesan, vegemite/marmite, soy sauce, mushrooms, peas, broccoli or tomato (especially a puree/passata)? If not, then it's not the MSG. The glutamate is what a very small minority of people have an issue with, and all of these foods are fairly well packed with glutamate.



Danscraftbeer said:


> I'd rather the natural and safer method of flavour enhancing. Chemical powdered concentrations are unsafe. and I don't even have kids.


Care to elaborate on how MSG is neither 'natural' or 'safe'? You make a strong statement that it's unsafe, with absolutely nothing to back it up.....


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## goatchop41 (21/11/15)

Good on you Bribie! It's good to see that there's plenty of people here who aren't suckered into the 1980s frame of mind that MSG is some sort of demon-additive designed by China to cripple the Western world via their love for Australian-American-Chinese food (god bless lemon chicken!).
Quite a few dishes that I make get the MSG powder treatment, but I also utilise fish sauce (which is also high in glutamate) in a lot of things - adding a teaspoon or so of it (or vegemite) to a bolognese/ragu will take it to the next level!


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## SBOB (21/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> Instead she has a barrage of traditional cleaning concoctions that she has inherited from other old ladies over the decades and she is proud of the fact that there are no "chemicals" in her home.
> 
> Clothes are washed in Nature's Dolphin laundry liquid or some such pale green stuff that probably comes out of the same vat as Surf.
> 
> ...


she probably also uses that deadly dihydrogen monoxide without knowing...


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## krausenhaus (21/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> I really don't have the heart to tell her, but this seems to be a widespread mindset, possibly related to decades of pretty abysmal teaching of science in Australian schools.


It almost seems as though the most common perception now is that a compound is either 'natural' or a 'chemical'. Even accepting that this is just a clumsy way of differentiating between something found in nature versus something exiting a factory, holding the idea that one compound can be either good or bad for you depending on its synthesis pathway is a fundamental misunderstanding of science that really doesn't put someone in a position to be making claims on health and nutrition.

Now if you would excuse me, I'm going to go and eat a delicious chemical-riddled banana.


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## Danscraftbeer (22/11/15)

Seems referring to myself choosing not to use it and considering it an unnatural enhancer upsets people. What do I care what any of you do? None. Go for your lives. :unsure:

Processed food is so good for you. The more processing the better! What do we even need fresh food for. Don't worry I'm sure you'll get plenty of _natural MSG _in 3D printed foods soon.


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## krausenhaus (23/11/15)

Here's an image that shows the production process of MSG. It might remind you of another process you're familiar with.


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## Batz (23/11/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Seems referring to myself choosing not to use it and considering it an unnatural enhancer upsets people. What do I care what any of you do? None. Go for your lives. :unsure:
> 
> Processed food is so good for you. The more processing the better! What do we even need fresh food for. Don't worry I'm sure you'll get plenty of _natural MSG _in 3D printed foods soon.


I'm with ya on this. But that's just me as well, and we all make our own chocies.


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## MHB (24/11/15)

I absolutely don't give a toss wether or not you or anyone else like/use MSG
What bothers me is the assertion "Chemical powdered concentrations are unsafe" that and the type of thinking that makes such statements possible. Remember there are people out there saying the same sort of thing about everything including BEER!

There has been lots of research done on MSG, I think on balance that unless you use massive quantities, that for most people there are no negative effects and it can taste great. Yes there are some people who have a bad reaction to MSG, does that make MSG bad, well some people have a bad reaction to Alcohol, does that make beer bad?
I would argue not, but there is a large community out here who are trying to impose serious constraints on all sorts of behaviour - always for our own good no doubt.

If you don't want to drink beer, or use MSG or make any of a hundred other life choices that's fine, its your life and as long as you aren't harming anyone else - do what you like.
What helps them is allowing wrong, unsubstantiated, unscientific ... assertions to stand as if they are fact and then use them to support an argument or to try and run your/my life.

If you don't want other people trying to run your life for you - don't help them!


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## goatchop41 (24/11/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Seems referring to myself choosing not to use it and considering it an unnatural enhancer upsets people. What do I care what any of you do? None. Go for your lives. :unsure:
> 
> Processed food is so good for you. The more processing the better! What do we even need fresh food for. Don't worry I'm sure you'll get plenty of _natural MSG _in 3D printed foods soon.


You're confusing someone questioning your statement/reasoning with someone saying that you can't think that way...no one said that you can't hold that opinion, but it would be better to just say "I don't like it or use it" than "I don't like it or use it because it is bad and unnatural". The first is an opinion/choice, the second is perpetuating false information, which is a blight on current society.




MHB said:


> I absolutely don't give a toss wether or not you or anyone else like/use MSG
> What bothers me is the assertion "Chemical powdered concentrations are unsafe" that and the type of thinking that makes such statements possible. Remember there are people out there saying the same sort of thing about everything including BEER!
> 
> There has been lots of research done on MSG, I think on balance that unless you use massive quantities, that for most people there are no negative effects and it can taste great. Yes there are some people who have a bad reaction to MSG, does that make MSG bad, well some people have a bad reaction to Alcohol, does that make beer bad?
> ...


Took the words right out of my mouth. You can have whatever opinion that you want - that's your right through free speech. What isn't ok is perpetuating falsehoods that are asserted by poorly educated mummy bloggers, who think that they're experts about nutrition and science just because they read a poorly written news piece or two.

Rant over


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## kunfaced (24/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> Anyway, **** you Gravox Brown Onion Gravy, just a pinch lifted my Kyogle Butchery thick snags and gravy and mash and a token green to glorious levels B)


You roll up with MSG? I knew it was addictive but ferk


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## Bribie G (24/11/15)

Haha the glorious intricacies of the English Language :lol:

I love "food controversies" and regularly infest forums and comments columns .. for example saturated fats vs healthy yummy stuff like Canola Oil:


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## Dave70 (24/11/15)

Canola oil. GM as ****.

All you fools drinking it daily by the liter are going to pay a terrible price eventually.


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## Bribie G (24/11/15)

I was walking past the rear of a takeaway and there were heaps of empty drums labelled "Cottola Oil", mix of Canola and Cotton Seed. Can you imagine what they spray cotton crops with, never mind the Rapeseed?


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## Dave70 (24/11/15)

I'd grant in times past the panic over cottenseed oil may have had merit, but thats slowly changing due to GM research into pest resistant strains. Now crops not return substantially higher yields per hectare, but are more pest resistant and thus require less pesticides. The good news for xenophobes and hypochondriacs is they can still hate it because its GM.

http://cottonaustralia.com.au/cotton-library/fact-sheets/cotton-fact-file-biotechnology

Still, 'cottola' is a bit cheeky. 

Just avoid trans fats where possible. Thats shit is actually more a mild toxin with no redeeming qualities.


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## idzy (24/11/15)

All sounds like good stuff to me. Where to buy?!


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/11/15)

Thank God ( or your chosen deity ) for GM cotton. 

In the past cotton was sprayed with some real nasty stuff that was persistent in soils and ground water and far more toxic than any GM modification

Of course them Anti-GM nut jobs still go on about the dangers of GM cotton ( and GM anything )...etc...etc


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## Danscraftbeer (24/11/15)

I actually agree with some comments of people who seem to be slaming me. For what again? stealing your liberties? :lol:

I'm definitely not touching that white powder now.


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## Danscraftbeer (24/11/15)

All in good will. I think I should elaborate. What I mean when I say safe. I consider measuring tiny quantities of powder concentrates very easy to get wrong etc. I tiny bit too much of eg: Sodium Metabisulphite in the apple juice is a bad thing etc. I pay attention to detail including why I might suffer more symptoms than usual like allergies or hay fever. I take note enough to recognize a pattern. And I don't like MSG as an intake! I do like it as a flavour but that can also be the trap into bad things. A universal thing you can throw in to taste good. Its a cheat. Plenty good food gets made without it. Don't need! Yes you can get bad reactions to many food and things.


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## wereprawn (24/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> I was walking past the rear of a takeaway and there were heaps of empty drums labelled "Cottola Oil", mix of Canola and Cotton Seed. Can you imagine what they spray cotton crops with, never mind the Rapeseed?


Farmers wouldn't dream of spraying pesticides or fungicides on wheat and barley crops ? :blink:


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/11/15)

wereprawn said:


> Farmers wouldn't dream of spraying pesticides or fungicides on wheat and barley crops ? :blink:


Actually they prefer not to. 

The modern farmer is a lot different to their fore fathers, gone are the days of just spraying for the sake of spraying

Plus it is an added cost as well, and if you dont have to, its more $$$ in the pocket


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## wereprawn (24/11/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Actually they prefer not to.
> 
> The modern farmer is a lot different to their fore fathers, gone are the days of just spraying for the sake of spraying
> 
> Plus it is an added cost as well, and if you dont have to, its more $$$ in the pocket


I imagine the same would apply to cotton and rapeseed ?


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/11/15)

Applies to any farming.


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## Bribie G (29/11/15)

I'd guess most cotton grown in Australia would be GM nowadays?


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## technobabble66 (29/11/15)

I'll preface this with saying eat whatever you want.
I'm merely putting this out there in case anyone is not aware of it, and so they can be well informed. 
All i'd advocate is: Everything in Moderation. (beer & MSG included).

Excitotoxicity
"...is the pathological process by which nerve cells are damaged or killed by excessive stimulation by neurotransmitters such as glutamate and similar substances. This occurs when receptors for the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate (glutamate receptors) such as the NMDA receptor and AMPA receptor are overactivated by glutamatergic storm."

The debate is obviously about what is "excessive" when referring to something that naturally occurs in trace amounts in many foods and basic food preparation. Though i think the key to that is the word "trace"

Or maybe more importantly, rather than a single excessive dose, what might constitute "excessive" in something that's consumed on a regular/daily basis at levels in processed foods (i.e.: added pure MSG) that may be significantly higher than that in unprocessed foods? Say, over 20, 30, 40 years?

Just thought i'd mention the actual reason it's potentially a health concern in case anyone was unaware. Not trying to be a health/food/diet nazi.

Again, each to their own. This is a Beer forum after all!


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## Bribie G (29/11/15)

I like that "glutamatergic storm"... Wow that could be a conversation stopper.


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## technobabble66 (29/11/15)

Maybe George W should've used it in '91.
Might've made all the difference in finding those WMDs.


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## krausenhaus (29/11/15)

That's a bit misleading, technobabble.

The wiki article goes on to say:

"Excitotoxicity may be involved in spinal cord injury, stroke, traumatic brain injury, hearing loss (through noise overexposure or ototoxicity) and in neurodegenerative diseases of the central nervous system (CNS) such as multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), Parkinson's disease, alcoholism or alcohol withdrawal and especially over-rapid benzodiazepine withdrawal, and also Huntington's disease. Other common conditions that cause excessive glutamate concentrations around neurons are hypoglycemia."

It is not related to excess consumption. Glutamate doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier (ref).


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## Bribie G (29/11/15)

I destroyed my blood brain barrier years ago.


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## technobabble66 (29/11/15)

krausenhaus said:


> That's a bit misleading, technobabble.
> 
> ... Glutamate doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier (ref).


... except at places like the Circumventricular Organs. They seem to happily allow the passage into parts of the Central Nervous System.

The other thing is, given scientific research discovers new things constantly, and that the phenomenon of excitotoxicity is proven, do you really want to risk the possibility that additional permeability to glutamate is discovered later on?

All the recent science on nutrition & health seems to indicate the wisdom of "Everything in Moderation." I'll just stick to that, i think.


PS: It may not be relevant, but did you read the Acknowledgements in that article you referenced, krausenhaus?
"The author's travel expenses associated with participation in the symposium and an honorarium were paid by the conference sponsor, the International Glutamate Technical Committee, a nongovernmental organization funded by industrial producers and users of glutamate in food. There were no conflicts of interest in the material presented in this article."

I'm glad they clarified there were no conflict of interest. Oh well, that's all right then.


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## krausenhaus (30/11/15)

Haha, woah! I missed that.

And yeah, moderation is always wise, of course. I'm not gonna go snorting the stuff just yet.


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## manticle (30/11/15)

Mainlining, on the other hand, is healthy.


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## jlm (30/11/15)

But free basing the stuff avoids the hassle of being associated with needle flavour enhancers. Plus I find the umami hit to be more intense.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/11/15)

Give me IV Vegemite anyday


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## Chookers (20/12/15)

use this

http://www.masterfoods.com.au/herbs-spices/herbs-spices-a-z/onion-powder/

I hope it doesn't contain msg. Its different but adds something.. I just keep sprinkling it in till whatever Im cooking tastes good.. (I wondered why I was using 23 bottles a day)


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## Bribie G (20/12/15)

I buy mine in bulk at Asian supermarkets. I expect it's easy to make your own but rather tedious drying the onions then blitzing them.

Another wonderful thing is fried onions in the pack, if you run them through a spice grinder it's Nirvana in a jar.


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