# Has Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?



## jaymick82 (5/1/17)

Hi everyone,

I have just noticed that Robobrew comes with the same internal malt pipe, overflow pipe, magnetic pump for recirculating and perforated plates as my Grainfather. Granted it doesn't come with a counter flow wort chiller, but it still comes with a wort chiller - plus a better option for boiling being you can switch on the 1900W and 500W element for a 2400W boil, where the Grainfather only has 2000W.

I think all things considered, the Robobrew has overtaken the Grainfather for the product price point.

Cheers.


----------



## Zorco (5/1/17)

Yeah, Nah,


----------



## mtb (5/1/17)

Zorco said:


> Yeah, Nah,


Try a little more constructive response Costco


----------



## mtb (5/1/17)

A quick Googling* indicates the same, although those who have actually bought the Robobrew might have some valuable feedback regarding its quality. Assuming the quality were the same, well, I'd definitely buy a Robobrew over a GF. That being said, I'm a ghetto BIAB enthusiast so I'll always be too cheap to buy either.

* "Googling" isn't highlighted as a spelling error, but "Googleing" is. Is "Googling" an official word now? Seems a little corporation..y


----------



## Chap (5/1/17)

as someone looking to go to all grain and possibly one of these options, would you mind elaborating a little more Zorco? So far the robobrew looks like the better option...


----------



## paulyman (5/1/17)

As a GF owner with the new PID controller, I can say it is an awesome bit of kit. But seeing the newest version of the Robobrew it also looks like an awesome bit of kit. I no chill so haven't even used the chiller after, well I've lost count how many brews, so to me it's not a selling point.

The Red Queen effect is clearly in operation though, GF took on Braumeister and now Robobrew is taking on GF. They all make beer and all will have their pros and cons and quirks. I love my GF but if this current iteration of the robobrew had been around when I bought the GF maybe I would have taken 2 robobrews instead.


----------



## Bribie G (5/1/17)

yes


----------



## Zorco (5/1/17)

mtb said:


> Try a little more constructive response Costco


I did have a whole lot more written, but several >8% beers tonight meant I needed the harsh edit of my contribution.


I got the impression that the robo was doing ok, but not as well as the GF.

Not sure of build quality or durability yet. I wonder how many AHB Brewers have both and can compare. I'll search when back at the PC.

Cheers for the check mate


----------



## mtb (6/1/17)

Always happy to criticise a double positive


----------



## BJB (6/1/17)

It will take over the G.F. for sure.
All about price the G.F. sells way more than the B.M. now, even though the quality is way inferior. Who's going to pay over twice for a G..F. now?

$600.00 and your away and brewing.

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/search/7ROBOBREW%20WITH%20PUMP--robobrew-all-in-one-brewery


----------



## BrutusB (6/1/17)

Downsized from a 100L 3v with HERMS PID control, two pumps etc. to a robobrew series 1 with one of my pumps connected for re-circulation.

Has my brewing quality diminished? No. Batch size only. Happy with my purchase!


----------



## sp0rk (6/1/17)

I've had a bit of a play with both, would GLADLY pay the extra for the Grainfather
It just felt much more quality built and sturdy


----------



## dannymars (6/1/17)

I've brewed on the robo at a friends house... works fine and all... but the build quality is pretty rough., very thin stainless, and the joins are a bit :unsure:

If I was to downsize from my 70L system, I think grainfather would get my $$$


----------



## tugger (6/1/17)

There is a nother one on the market now ex china. 
I will dig around for a pic.


----------



## tugger (6/1/17)




----------



## bwhouse (6/1/17)

I have been tossing up between the new Robobrew and the Grainfather. Haven't actually had a chance to see the new Robobrew in the flesh as I can't find a Sydney store that has one in stock but based on what I have seen on the older Robobrew compared to the Grainfather, I have decided to go with the Grainfather. The build quality certainly looks superior and for the extra cash, I think it will be worth it in the long run. 

I am sure the Robobrew is still a solid piece of equipment and will pump out great brews though.


----------



## stevonz (6/1/17)

tugger said:


> There is a nother one on the market now ex china.


Can you provide the links/ cost etc please? Looking for funding from the CFO/ wife


----------



## BJB (6/1/17)

> I've had a bit of a play with both, would GLADLY pay the extra for the Grainfather
> It just felt much more quality built and sturdy





> I've brewed on the robo at a friends house... works fine and all... but the build quality is pretty rough., very thin stainless, and the joins are a bit :unsure:


Sounds just like the Braumeister, Grainfather threads of a couple years ago. :lol:


----------



## sp0rk (6/1/17)

BJB said:


> Sounds just like the Braumeister, Grainfather threads of a couple years ago. :lol:


Not really, I think those 2 both have similar quality
Just with the Brau you're paying for " Superior German engineering" (not that I believe that exists anymore)
Also better elements, etc


----------



## tugger (6/1/17)

Elements. 
I have heard the gf heating elements are not replaceable.


----------



## tugger (6/1/17)

stevonz said:


> Can you provide the links/ cost etc please? Looking for funding from the CFO/ wife


Here is what Iv found so far. 
https://m.alibaba.com/product/60554097276/Beer-Mash-Tun-30L-Gift-For.html?spm=a2706.7843299.1998817009.83.EmQQmU


----------



## tugger (6/1/17)

.


----------



## tugger (6/1/17)

I can't get it to work.


----------



## Phoney (6/1/17)

Is there anything other than a 50L braumeister that can do double batches? I would like to upgrade from the old urn, but not for something that is still limited to 23L.


----------



## malt and barley blues (6/1/17)

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/X-mas-Promotion-Buy-2-get_60596320075.html


----------



## DU99 (6/1/17)

my question i would asking myself ..can i get spare parts,warranty compliance.,does the unit meet australian standards.and can i return the unit if unhappy :icon_offtopic:


----------



## Brownsworthy (6/1/17)

They both serve their purpose, I guess it depends on how much you want to spend. I personally have no experience with either but the one thing I'll say is that the GF has it all over the Robo in the way of marketing every bloody brew shop I've been to has posters and catalogues of 'The Anatomy of the Grainfather' bloody everywhere.


----------



## TwoCrows (6/1/17)

Advertising makes it cost more !

What you get after spending your hard earned, and regards to quality and longevity


----------



## DU99 (6/1/17)

word of mouth sells products not expensive ad's...... if it's good you tell someone and if it's crap you tell more people


----------



## Brownsworthy (6/1/17)

That's true, but for anyone who walks into a brew shop, looking at AG brewing, are bombarded by glossy adverts and a nice shiny Grainfather sitting before them. I have never once seen an advert for Robobrew or a unit in any local brew shop. There are many uneducated people who may want to get into AG brewing who may be easily swayed by this approach.


----------



## TwoCrows (6/1/17)

Very true, The power of marketing.

If you look at any hobby people will buy equipment on a hunch so to speak,. And when they figure it out they buy what they need.

Word of mouth works for the people that want to listen.


----------



## Brownsworthy (6/1/17)

I guess it will grab more of the hipsters who are riding the next fad.
Thats why I built my own system as I love my hobbies and DIY.


----------



## Maheel (6/1/17)

how many liquid L's are in the GF and RB malt pipes ?


----------



## Brownsworthy (6/1/17)

23.7L for the GF and 21.3 for the Robo from what I have read elsewhere.


----------



## TasShine (6/1/17)

I have a Robobrew, originally just for ag whisky mashing, while it has some design flaws it has taken a fair bit of punishment since I bought it, I recently used a Grain Father and for the money I would go a Robobrew, unless I had a heap then I would go a Braumeister(which I have also used). Just so you know I have only made beer with the Robobrew, the others were Whisky mash's.


----------



## scooterism (6/1/17)

My opinion won't matter as I neither, but if I did I would GF, from watching videos and stuff, it just seems a bit better thought out in terms of use.


----------



## BJB (6/1/17)

If your just getting into home brewing it's all about the money. Robobrew and a keg set-up for the price of a Grainfather. What do you think you would choose?

Both will turn out beers you possibly can't tell apart.


----------



## Bridges (6/1/17)

I got a secondhand BM at a fantastic price thanks to the grainfather and robobrew arriving on the market! My vote is to get a lightly used 20litre BM at a grainfather price. Worked for me!


----------



## DU99 (6/1/17)

i was given one as a gift .all i have done is cleaned it.to me it's a waste of time compared to biab..less cleaning


----------



## SBOB (6/1/17)

Bridges said:


> I got a secondhand BM at a fantastic price thanks to the grainfather and robobrew arriving on the market! My vote is to get a lightly used 20litre BM at a grainfather price. Worked for me!


thats a pretty limited market though


----------



## scooterism (6/1/17)

https://youtu.be/rUONP5YNq0s?t=1005

Vs

https://youtu.be/kZIYUGwVOAo?t=442



Sorry if the links don't work, I click on them and get taken to some Skimlinks page..


----------



## spryzie (6/1/17)

The pictures for the new robbo show they have gotten rid of the cake rack.

http://cdn.kegking.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/581x/dc4f5d9b6c0b1ca5ac9e41dce4e31704/r/o/robobrew_with_pump_-_malt_pipe_feet.jpg


----------



## TidalPete (6/1/17)

Phoney said:


> Phoney, on 06 Jan 2017 - 3:35 PM, said:
> Is there anything other than a 50L braumeister that can do double batches? I would like to upgrade from the old urn, but not for something that is still limited to 23L.


Probably :icon_offtopic:


Anyone can spend the dollars then call themselves a brewer but IMHO you’re not a proper brewer until you’ve built you own setup no matter what sort it is & have done the hard yards using & learning.

Instant gratification seems to be the thing these days alright!

Phoney, For the price of one of these gizmos you can be very well on the way to setting up your own 3/4 vessel HERMS if you stay away from the bling stuff.


My 2-cents & could wait with flame suit on but don’t give a stuff one way or the other. :lol:


----------



## spryzie (6/1/17)

Do you make your own steel too?


----------



## manticle (6/1/17)

TidalPete said:


> Probably :icon_offtopic:
> 
> 
> Anyone can spend the dollars then call themselves a brewer but IMHO you’re not a proper brewer until you’ve built you own setup no matter what sort it is & have done the hard yards using & learning.
> ...


As some one who has cobbled his own together from this and that (still going, rudimentary as bollocks too) I understand what you're saying and agree no off the shelf product can replicate knowledge and experience.

However a major advantage of units like these is simply the space they save and space is not something everyone has. People who rent small apartments and need to move every few years are likely to benefit from something like this.

Regardless, still need to understand recipe design, mashing and fermenting if you want to make anything worthwhile.


----------



## Zorco (6/1/17)

Spot on manticle. But I would also add the perspective of the dodgy automatic home brewing mini machines which is surely present in TP's views...

But those rigs don't go that far into instant gratification imo


----------



## TidalPete (6/1/17)

Manticle,

I somewhat agree with the argument you've made but if you read my post again you will see




> Quote you’re not a proper brewer until you’ve built you own setup *no matter what sort it is *


That includes BIAB, stovetop, etc., which goes a long way to knocking over the "lack of space" thingo.
Everybody has to find room for their grain, hops, etc, in this great hobby.
For instance, I may have my own home but my gear & everything else is scattered all around in various areas, cupboards & shelves etc.

I want a shed, need a shed, but sadly, I will never get one. 
PITA getting it all out & putting it away again I know, but that's part & parcel of brewing to your capabilities in your environment.

No more from me in this thread. :beer:











.
My last word on this.


----------



## welly2 (6/1/17)

TidalPete said:


> Probably :icon_offtopic:
> 
> Anyone can spend the dollars then call themselves a brewer but IMHO you’re not a proper brewer until you’ve built you own setup no matter what sort it is & have done the hard yards using & learning.
> 
> ...


Not sure what being a fitter has to do with making beer! Buying my Grainfather wasn't instant gratification, it took ages to save up for it!

I did build my previous 3v system but given my time again, I'd have gone for a Grainfather every time. I'm interested in brewing beer not sourcing parts and bolting it together and I can certainly say that making a system did in no way do anything to help learn more about brewing. What taught me about brewing was doing exactly that - brewing.


----------



## Bones99 (6/1/17)

So a butcher needs to raise his own meat to be classed as a butcher? 

A Baker needs to grow his grains? 

A doctor needs to make his own instruments? 

Seems a bit 'high and mighty' to me, but each his own. 

I hope you've never been beat in a being comp by an 'instant gratification' brewer Pete.....Btw, how many breweries build their own brewery?

JMO


----------



## manticle (6/1/17)

Yeah BIAB in an urn is a space saver. Not sure sticking a bag in an urn = building anything (although it sure still equates to brewing).

I do get what you mean - just don't see it all as defined and delineated.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (6/1/17)

Its a very little known fact that a Peter Brock designed and assembled every engine part that went into all of his Bathurst winning vehicles


----------



## Bones99 (7/1/17)

Hahaha, I was actually going to ask if Craig Lowndes was a mechanic, but thought better of it.


----------



## evoo4u (7/1/17)

Different paths which lead to the same place...


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

manticle said:


> However a major advantage of units like these is simply the space they save and space is not something everyone has. People who rent small apartments and need to move every few years are likely to benefit from something like this.
> 
> Regardless, still need to understand recipe design, mashing and fermenting if you want to make anything worthwhile.


Couldn't agree more. I am confined to an apartment so basically need a single vessel system that can be packed away into a cupboard. I was brewing on a mates 3v system but he has since moved overseas so moved on to BIAB on the stovetop, but you can only get so far with a bigw 19l pot.

I tossed up the idea of building my own 1v system as I love to build stuff, but by the time I sourced all the parts (decent quality), got a burner, malt pipe, pump, fittings, built a controller I was going to be investing a fair amount of dollars and a shit load of time (which also equates to $$) and learning very little so it seems like the investment in a Robobrew or Grainfather is well worth it. I would far prefer to spend the time brewing and actually learning about recipes, techniques and the art of actually making beer not making brewing equipment. 

If that means I am not a proper brewer, then so be it. But that rate at which the kegs get drained when mates are over would suggest otherwise


----------



## rocketpants (7/1/17)

Is there any truth to the rumour that robobrew is bringing out a 64L model? Now that sounds interesting...


----------



## Benn (7/1/17)

^Yes


----------



## stilvia (7/1/17)

bwhouse said:


> If that means I am not a proper brewer, then so be it. But that rate at which the kegs get drained when mates are over would suggest otherwise


Either that, or all you're mates are tight arses and love drinking free beer no mater what the taste!


----------



## wide eyed and legless (7/1/17)

I don't think it matters what brewing equipment one brews with. ''It isn't the equipment that make's the beer it's the brewer using them" WEAL 2017

As for the differences in the Grainfather, and the Robobrew taking into account that the wholesaler wants to make a 100% profit as does the retailer the initial price point would be somewhere around the same price as the RoboBrew, being as KK are the importers and retailers, never seen them side by side so can't comment on the quality difference, but I can't imagine there would much to be concerned about.


----------



## Zorco (7/1/17)

Jeepers creepers,

WEAL, you've officially put yourself in kerrplease's league by quoting yourself.


----------



## TwoCrows (7/1/17)

Does anyone have the new Robobrew or seen it in action??

I have not seen a Youtube video as yet. Pump model.

If the stainless doesn't rust, heater blow up or the pump fall out, the Robobrew / Hobobrew is worth the money.

The limiting factor for both in my opinion is the boil size ( volume ) or ease of containing the boil. I my be wrong , I don't own either.


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

The idea that building your own system from parts adds nothing to a brewers learning experience and knowledge base is nonsense.

There are decisions to be made of how and where everything fits together. There are zillion possible ways to build a brewery - where does that thermowell go?; what size and power of element do I use?, and to come to conclusions you have to think and learn about the brewing process you are locking yourself into.

If you buy a ready-made system those decisions have already been made for you. Easy, pretty much push a few buttons and walk away. But if you are a novice brewer I agree with Tidal Pete and say that building a system (or two) yourself requires research and is a fine way to educate yourself on how brewing equipment affects the beer that will be produced. And if one day you do end up buying a commercially made system you'll be a better 'craft' (and that is the operative word in this discussion) brewer than some newbie who is starting out on the same gear.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (7/1/17)

That crap is based on the assumption that Grainfather or Robobrew users are rich kids who start out AG brewing by buying one. My journey started with traditional Big W pot on the stove top and progressed to a bigger pot with a Keg King Light Sabre element and an esky before purchasing a GF.


----------



## Zorco (7/1/17)

Same


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

^ yup same ^

Still say there is little point in building a single vessel recirculation system, unless you actually want to spend the time and build one to learn the in's and out's of build a brewery (not brewing). A Robobrew or a Grainfather is just better value.


----------



## welly2 (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> If you buy a ready-made system those decisions have already been made for you. Easy, pretty much push a few buttons and walk away. But if you are a novice brewer I agree with Tidal Pete and say that building a system (or two) yourself requires research and is a fine way to educate yourself on how brewing equipment affects the beer that will be produced. And if one day you do end up buying a commercially made system you'll be a better 'craft' (and that is the operative word in this discussion) brewer than some newbie who is starting out on the same gear.


If you think the Grainfather or the Robobrew is a case of pressing a few buttons and then walking away then you've clearly never used either one of them. They require the exact same process (more or less) as a standard 3v system. They're no more automated than a herms/rims system.


----------



## Bridges (7/1/17)

Bones99 said:


> Hahaha, I was actually going to ask if Craig Lowndes was a mechanic, but thought better of it.


Good move because he is and did build his own cars and engines before racing with HRT...

Any hoo, I built my own system 1 vessel and before that used to BIAB and I was never real happy with my own 1 vessel which I wanted for space saving reasons, my wife actually set me straight after another batch that I wasn't happy with by asking if I'd try to build my own vacuum or drill if I needed one. Point taken, I went and purchased a wort production device. I know the build and tinkering is fun and a big part of the learning process but these great options just weren't around not that long ago. I don't begrudge anyone getting into brewing now being able to buy a great system at a decent price. Good luck to them.


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

welly2 said:


> If you think the Grainfather or the Robobrew is a case of pressing a few buttons and then walking away then you've clearly never used either one of them. They require the exact same process (more or less) as a standard 3v system. They're no more automated than a herms/rims system.


"exact same process" but at the same time "more or less" ???

Anyway, the technical specifics of the systems was not the thrust of my post. What I was getting at is the development of a brewer into a craftsman. If you like its the difference between a beer maker and a brewer.

We live at a cusp in time when until recently if you wanted to make all-grain beer at the domestic level you had to knock together some kit from components mostly designed for other purposes - cooking pots, eskies, etc. Then things like the Braumeister came along and more recently the Grainfather, Robbobrew etc. All reliant on computer chips.

Right now a lot of users of these new, ready-made systems have cut their teeth on their own self-made systems. And they bring to their use of these new systems all the craftmanship in brewing gained from all the trial and error (empiricism) they worked through since they began brewing.

On the other hand, there are many newbies who come to brewing today straight into a Grainfather etc. And this group has no real need to understand why their machine is made like it is, it just works. But unless some take the effort to learn from empirical experience, the homebrewing community is at risk over time of losing the craftmanship expertise if these new brewers just blindly follow recipes and instructions. Where will the guys who develop ideas born out of an apprentership with cobbled together kit, some even without instrumentation in the beginning. I made my first batches without a thermometer. The results varied but shit I learnt a lot. (I use thermometers now, but I can still get my mash pretty close to 65C degrees by sight and touch).

I only mention this to demonstrate what an element of craftmanship actually is, because the word is so much abused these days. It is a state of mind, a reliance on your five senses and your memory and on a sliding scale. Some things are more 'crafty' than others. But ultimately automation leads to the death of craftmanship. The more we rely on automation in that quest for 'repeatability' the less craftmanship we put into our beers. In the end we are beer-makers rather than craftbrewers. And thats OK, enjoy making your beers and drinking and sharing them. Just don't puff your chest out and tell people you're the latter when you are really the former.

One way to negate the inevitable slide towards mere beer-making is to encourage new brewers to have a go at making their own system, if they can. Not all, but some. We need to restock the gene pool.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Except systems like braumeister, gf etc inspire technical minded people to replicate those ideas in homemade systems so craft continues and evolves, over and over.

All systems just make wort anyway. Brewing is much more than wort production.

And if you're going to give a good hearted jab at exact/pretty much, take one from me for the use of three question marks. One serves the same purpose, three is profligate


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (7/1/17)

The bloke I bought my Grainfather from sold his to fund his next 3v build. Many users do eventually get tired of the small batch size of these systems and go to 150 litre or larger builds. Owning a brewing system is not a fixed destination - merely one step in a journey. 

I have had some excellent beers that were brewed by beer makers using no more than a Crown Urn and a bag. Such a shame that they can never call themselves brewers.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> The bloke I bought my Grainfather from sold his to fund his next 3v build. Many users do eventually get tired of the small batch size of these systems and go to 150 litre or larger builds. Owning a brewing system is not a fixed destination - merely one step in a journey.
> 
> I have had some excellent beers that were brewed by beer makers using no more than a Crown Urn and a bag. Such a shame that they can never call themselves brewers.


+1

Mate of mine owns a GF and is jealous that I can put down a double batch. The common factors between he and I are fermentation; we both face similar issues there. Being a craft brewer IMO is crafting your own recipe and having it turn out great, not your own equipment. The equipment is merely a vehicle, the recipe & your skill is the fuel.


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> The bloke I bought my Grainfather from sold his to fund his next 3v build. Many users do eventually get tired of the small batch size of these systems and go to 150 litre or larger builds. Owning a brewing system is not a fixed destination - merely one step in a journey.
> 
> I have had some excellent beers that were brewed by beer makers using no more than a Crown Urn and a bag. Such a shame that they can never call themselves brewers.


The beer that is produced has no bearing on the craftmanship that went into it. That should be clear from my last post.

The craftmanship is resident in the brewer, not the beer.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> The beer that is produced has no bearing on the craftmanship that went into it


Gotta completely disagree there. Maybe this is a difference in the interpretation of the word "craftsmanship".
You define it as, and I quote, "It is a state of mind, a reliance on your five senses and your memory and on a sliding scale"
Google defines it as; "the quality of design and work shown in something made by hand; artistry."

By Google's definition, if a beer is good, it means the recipe was good (designed by a brewer). The work undertaken by the brewer (milling, stirring, handling, not infecting) means it was good.


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

Mental note to self, next time I am jumping on a flight, confirm with the pilot that they indeed built the plane are are not 'simply' flying it B)

Jokes aside, I totally agree with mtb, the craftsmanship is in the actually brewing and the end result. That's not to say that you don't learn a whole lot of other skills in building a brewery.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> The beer that is produced has no bearing on the craftmanship that went into it. That should be clear from my last post.
> 
> The craftmanship is resident in the brewer, not the beer.


So if a guy whittles a stick into sawdust rather than the dove he intended or makes a chair that breaks the first time a child sits on it, he's still a craftsman 'cos he thinks he is?


----------



## welly2 (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> "exact same process" but at the same time "more or less" ???


Yes, in as far as the subtle differences between brewing with a BIAB system vs a HERMS system vs a RIMS system. The process is the same, the mechanics slightly different. 

I still have to mill my grain, mash in, sparge, boil, add my hops, do my whirlpool. And the Grainfather will do none of this for me. To say you just have to press a couple of buttons and walk away is simply uninformed.



Feldon said:


> Then things like the Braumeister came along and more recently the Grainfather, Robbobrew etc. All reliant on computer chips.


Sorry mate but that's a load of crap. My Grainfather does nothing more than hold the temperature to a consistent level. That's as automated as it goes. Everything else is a manual process.


----------



## Coldspace (7/1/17)

The larger 64 ltr system would be good,

I get 2 x 21 ltr batches upto 1048 grav on each gf mash , but a bigger system might get me 3-4 19 to 21 ltr batches..

I watch with excitement .


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

manticle said:


> So if a guy whittles a stick into sawdust rather than the dove he intended or makes a chair that breaks the first time a child sits on it, he's still a craftsman 'cos he thinks he is?


No, that's silly (and you know it is).

You more than others should know what I mean by craftmanship, as I take it from previos posts you have spent many years in professional kitchens. There you would have seen craftmanship at work - they are called chefs. Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never. They know by sight, taste, smell, touch or sound how much to add - how much vinegar to add to the mayonaise, how much salt to season the broth etc. They are craftsmen. They have learned their craft from their master as an apprentice, and testing themselves time and time again until they got it right. For a hundred common dishes they don't need recipe books. They know how ingredients perform together. The same goes for the application of heat. A recipe might say "cook on a medium heat for 5 minutes". A chef will just cook it till its right, using his senses to inform his memory.

Compare properly trained chefs to the recipe-following cooks who have no idea why a certain volume or weight on an ingredient is needed, or why 5 minutes instead of 4:30 seconds - just measure it all out and blindly follow the recipe. They may still produce a "good" product. But one is made by a chef and one by a cook.

Some beers are made by craftsmen, some beer, perhaps as good, is just made.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never.


Because;
a. Measuring takes time and chefs typically are under immense pressure, and
b. Errors in measuring out ingredients for food don't impact the final product nearly as much as in beer. Also, professional kitchens have pre-measured quantities of base ingredients (ie meats, vegetables).

Are you suggesting that any good brewer should be able to weigh out 5kg of pale malt without scales.. when the technology and time is available in generous quantities?


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

welly2 said:


> Yes, in as far as the subtle differences between brewing with a BIAB system vs a HERMS system vs a RIMS system. The process is the same, the mechanics slightly different.
> 
> I still have to mill my grain, mash in, sparge, boil, add my hops, do my whirlpool. And the Grainfather will do none of this for me. To say you just have to press a couple of buttons and walk away is simply uninformed.
> 
> ...


The process might be the same, but the brewer is not the same. You've let a machine take command of important parts - eg. maintaining mash temperature. You also make no mention of your knowledge of the design of the system, What, for example, was that particular diameter/height ratio chosen for the Grainfather. Its important because optimal mash tun ratios are different to boil kettle ratios, and single vessel systems combine both. People who have built their own systems have had to wrestle with these issues, made decisions, make mistakes and learned. Do you know? Perhaps you don't care (and that's OK - I don't know why the engineers at Toyota chose the particular compression ratio for my Camry. But I don't pretend to be Stirling Moss). A craftsman cares about his equipment as much as his recipe and processes.

The point I'm making is that craftmanship in brewing, like anything else, is about what you as a person bring to it. It is in your attitude and your ethics, the sense of value you place in living your life on your terms (not living the life someone you don't know has programmed for you). As I said earlier its a sliding scale. To pursue craftmanship to its ultimate ends we would all be growing our own barley and capturing wild yeast. But I just think it is important the brewing process retains as much of its craft base as it once did when we brewed our beer after boiling our socks in the laundry copper.


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

mtb said:


> Are you suggesting that any good brewer should be able to weigh out 5kg of pale malt without scales.. when the technology and time is available in generous quantities?


Maybe it is ok to use scales to measure the 5kg if you built the scales from scratch. Hey its not that hard, buy a few load sensors from ebay connect them to an adruino and then google some code.


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

mtb said:


> Because;
> a. Measuring takes time and chefs typically are under immense pressure, and
> b. Errors in measuring out ingredients for food don't impact the final product nearly as much as in beer. Also, professional kitchens have pre-measured quantities of base ingredients (ie meats, vegetables).
> 
> Are you suggesting that any good brewer should be able to weigh out 5kg of pale malt without scales.. when the technology and time is available in generous quantities?


Any brewer who did that would indeed be bringing more craftmanship to his brewing than me. But yes, that's what craftmanship is.

(and I hope people are starting begin the long journey of understanding in their bones what craftmanship is _really _about. It can be uncomfortable, and certainly can't be bought for $599 from a homebrew shop).


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> Any brewer who did that would indeed be bringing more craftmanship to his brewing than me. But yes, that's what craftmanship is.
> 
> (and I hope people are starting begin the long journey of understanding in their bones what craftmanship is _really _about. It can be uncomfortable, and certainly can't be bought for $599 from a homebrew shop).


Even if you go with this definition of craftsmanship, essentially the equipment has nothing to do with it. A chef could make the same dish using any pots and pans. Likewise a brewer can be a true craftsman and make any brew on any equipment. Yes a brewer needs to understand why you need to control things like temp but you don't need to build your own equipment to gain that understanding, reading and beginning to learn about the science behind brewing is where this comes from.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

It sounds to me that you see brewing as more of a pissing contest than a simple common goal, which is to make good beer. Your opinions are your own but I don't think the vast majority of this forum would share them.


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

Full disclosure: I bought (well my wife did) a Grainfather this morning and it's first brew is boiling away. Yes I am very happy with my purchase.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> No, that's silly (and you know it is).
> 
> You more than others should know what I mean by craftmanship, as I take it from previos posts you have spent many years in professional kitchens. There you would have seen craftmanship at work - they are called chefs. Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never. They know by sight, taste, smell, touch or sound how much to add - how much vinegar to add to the mayonaise, how much salt to season the broth etc. They are craftsmen. They have learned their craft from their master as an apprentice, and testing themselves time and time again until they got it right. For a hundred common dishes they don't need recipe books. They know how ingredients perform together. The same goes for the application of heat. A recipe might say "cook on a medium heat for 5 minutes". A chef will just cook it till its right, using his senses to inform his memory.
> 
> ...


Yes it is silly. As silly as the idea that end product quality has no relationship to the level of craftsmanship involved.

As far as chefs go- 
Actually many, many brilliant chefs that I encountered were anal about measuring to the nth degree. It was actually part of their craft to see them get so fixated on minutiae. I knew a shitload of average cooks who chucked in a bit of this and a pinch of that and thought it was good food.

I grant that there are brilliant craftspeople on the other side of the scale as well. Thus, to my mind, technology use (whether with or without) actually has very, very little bearing on any of it. True craftspeople exist outside that frame of reference.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Also your argument is based on the premise that a robo/gf whatever makes beer.

It does that no more than an oven or frypan makes a filet mignon.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

manticle.. shouldn't you be threatening to trim the thread because it's way OT? :lol: or is that Barls' territory only?


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

mtb said:


> It sounds to me that you see brewing as more of a pissing contest than a simple common goal, which is to make good beer. Your opinions are your own but I don't think the vast majority of this forum would share them.


You might want "to make make good beer". Me too. But here I'm talking about crafting good beer.

If you haven't started to understand the difference by now you probably don't want to.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Be a bit rich to mod the ot discussion I'm involved in and nothing so far is especially nasty or otherwise in breach of guidelines.

Merely slightly tangential. Other mods may disagree but at this stage I say carry on.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

mtb said:


> Because;
> a. Measuring takes time and chefs typically are under immense pressure, and
> b. Errors in measuring out ingredients for food don't impact the final product nearly as much as in beer. Also, professional kitchens have pre-measured quantities of base ingredients (ie meats, vegetables).


The chef that excuses not measuring because of pressure likely gets their arse kicked.

As for impact - might depend somewhat on the dish but try that idea with a good pastry chef and see how far you get.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> If you haven't started to understand the difference by now you probably don't want to.


Please, enlighten me. Does simply having a computer chip in a piece of computer equipment make your beer no longer "crafted"? You do realise your fermentation fridge/chamber has such technology in it?
I'm keen mostly to know where you draw the line between "hand crafted" and the devil's lettuce you seem so opposed to.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

manticle said:


> The chef that excuses not measuring because of pressure likely gets their arse kicked.
> 
> As for impact - might depend somewhat on the dish but try that idea with a good pastry chef and see how far you get.


Definitely pastry chefs need to use precision, I was referring more to savoury dishes and the such, where herbs/vegetable additions are thrown together. Got that much exp from my previous line of work and a brother who is a professional chef in some swanky Sydney area.


----------



## mugley (7/1/17)

Not sure about how the Robobrew temp controller works, but on the Grainfather it's a detached box which the pump and heating plug into. If you throw the box away and hook the pump and heating up manually, there's not a computer chip in sight.

I'm struggling to comprehend how doing such a thing would make anybody more craftsperson-like.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

I have no formal training and used to be quite unhandy. With some professional experience/personal trial and error/research, some of my own intelligence and a little bit of demo/short course stuff I can weld delicate mounts, build and fitout custom art crates and make archival board and cloth lined custom timber boxes.

One guy who works for me is a trained, experienced carpenter. He uses same tools I do (some hand but mostly power), measures everything twice and makes far superior product (aesthetics and structure) than I probably ever will. While my conceptual level of knowledge specific to what we are making supersedes his currently (experience) he'll get that soon enough.

Is he not a craftperson because the router is powered? Because he uses a measuring tape or makes a jig?

Sometimes I bang my screws in by eye. My laziness does not make me crafty*

*my crates still look nice so shut up.


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

mtb said:


> Please, enlighten me. *Does simply having a computer chip in a piece of computer equipment make your beer no longer "crafted"?* You do realise your fermentation fridge/chamber has such technology in it?
> I'm keen mostly to know where you draw the line between "hand crafted" and the devil's lettuce you seem so opposed to.


No, you must read and understand what I have said.

In answer to you question, it would mean that the beer is _less _crafted.

Edit: Less crafted as the same beer of equal quality brewed on non-computerised equipment.


----------



## mtb (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> it would mean that the beer is _less _crafted


Would you attribute these things to a percentage of "less-craftedness"?

Using a fermentation fridge: 7%
Using a temp controller in your mash: 15%
Using a motorised grain mill: 11%
Using an electronic thermometer: 6%
Using an electronic pH meter: 24% (this is a big no no boys and girls)
Using a refractomerer: 16%

If you get into negative "craftedness" a pair of men in white suits will come get you in your sleep and you'll be conscripted to work at CUB


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> No, you must read and understand what I have said.


Maybe you need to examine the rationality of what you've said. It's not a lack of comprehension of the concept you've presented: rather an umbrage with the logical journey preceeding it.


----------



## Brownsworthy (7/1/17)

Ok guys, but has the Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?


----------



## Feldon (7/1/17)

mtb said:


> Would you attribute these things to a percentage of "less-craftedness"?
> 
> Using a fermentation fridge: 7%
> Using a temp controller in your mash: 15%
> ...


_“And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?”_

*Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values*


----------



## wide eyed and legless (7/1/17)

Would be interesting if Mrs Beeton could return from the dead and see the progress made in household gadgets, she'd be glad to see the back of the mangle, dolly tub, flat iron and pulley maid but be surprised that men were now making home brewed beer still brewing in a bag FFS.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (7/1/17)

Brownsworthy said:


> Ok guys, but has the Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?


I would say YES, the competition goes awry when the importer is retailing the product.


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> _“And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?”_
> 
> *Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values*


Did Plato talk about the 'good' beer?


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (7/1/17)

Brownsworthy said:


> Ok guys, but has the Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?


Its a bit like a Chinese smartphone vs Iphone argument. Narrow difference on features and benefits, price is better for the Chinese one though I am not sure whether it is Certified to Australian standards. Grainfather after sales service has been sterling to date and the build quality is still superior. And for all of the criteria just mentioned some folks will still happily shell out even extra still for a BM.


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> Edit: Less crafted as the same beer of equal quality brewed on non-computerised equipment.


As pointed out previously, the Grainfather and Robobrew are not really 'computerised' they simply have a standard PID temp controller. Something that I am sure most people would fit to any DIY brew rig. How does this in any way affect how 'crafted' the beer is?


----------



## bwhouse (7/1/17)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Its a bit like a Chinese smartphone vs Iphone argument. Narrow difference on features and benefits, price is better for the Chinese one though I am not sure whether it is Certified to Australian standards. Grainfather after sales service has been sterling to date and the build quality is still superior. And for all of the criteria just mentioned some folks will still happily shell out even extra still for a BM.


Yup I would agree with this. As someone who was just in the market for a single vessel brewing system, it was a tough choice between them. If I was more patient I probably would have waited around till a few places started stocking the new Robobrew and had a good look at it. But based on what I have heard of the previous model and the fact that I could get a Grainfather now, I decided it was worth the extra cash. 

Ultimately I believe you always end up getting what you pay for (within reason), the BM is better than the Grainfather and the Grainfather is most likely still going to be slightly better in terms of quality and after sales support to the Robobrew. But thas just my 2 cents.


----------



## Zorco (7/1/17)

Way to go tidal Pete.... 

Make a thread go poo poo OT and then leave! 

Someone call kerrplease to arrest the situation!


----------



## Benn (7/1/17)

So many analogies, it's like...


----------



## TidalPete (7/1/17)

Zorco said:


> Zorco, on 07 Jan 2017 - 4:33 PM, said:
> 
> Way to go tidal Pete....
> 
> ...


 :lol:

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hey Zorco --- It's TidalPete with no gap in between the Tidal & the Pete thank you very much. [/SIZE] 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I can only blame the OP rum & my own legendary impetuousness. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Feldon is on the right track here I reckon but then we're probably not SNAG's for want of a better term. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Go, go you home brewery builds! :beerbang: [/SIZE]


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

How many last words do you want to have tidalpete farnham?


----------



## manticle (7/1/17)

How about those home built grainfathers then?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (7/1/17)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Its a bit like a Chinese smartphone vs Iphone argument. Narrow difference on features and benefits, price is better for the Chinese one though I am not sure whether it is Certified to Australian standards. Grainfather after sales service has been sterling to date and the build quality is still superior. And for all of the criteria just mentioned some folks will still happily shell out even extra still for a BM.


Both are Chinese, just the assembly of the Grainfather is done in house.


----------



## malt junkie (7/1/17)

I have to sadly say in the last year or two since these(GF and Robbo) have been released the number of build threads has dropped dramatically.

Quite depressing -_-

less innovation.


----------



## mugley (7/1/17)

Maybe a reduced need to innovate in brewery equipment building frees up minds and time to innovate in recipe development and brewday technique instead?


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (7/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Both are Chinese, just the assembly of the Grainfather is done in house.


Much like many of the components of the Iphone only built to a stricter specification and quality management regime. Ultimately the customer places his /her faith in the firm marketing the end product. Grainfather (or Apple) vs Oppo or Huwaei (or Keg King's supplier). Do a search here on Keg King Element Fail for a taste of that track record and after sales service. To my best knowledge the elements never had Certification to Australian Electrical Standards and neither did the Gen 1 Robobrews although I would happily stand correct if not the case for the new ones.


----------



## Zorco (7/1/17)

malt junkie said:


> I have to sadly say in the last year or two since these(GF and Robbo) have been released the number of build threads has dropped dramatically.
> 
> Quite depressing -_-
> 
> less innovation.


I just finished rebuilding my brewery today. 

Not a thread and only on topic because I've left a spot in the corner for a GF/RB
[emoji39]





Well, to be accurate, I've probably left room for a GF as I don't think the RB has taken over


----------



## BJB (7/1/17)

malt junkie said:


> I have to sadly say in the last year or two since these(GF and Robbo) have been released the number of build threads has dropped dramatically.
> 
> Quite depressing -_-
> 
> less innovation.


I'm sure you could find some sites dedicated to building breweries. I for one would prefer talking about brewing beer, recipes, grain and hops. Bored shitless with how someone fitted a tap or element.


----------



## Zorco (7/1/17)

BJB said:


> I'm sure you could find some threads on AHB dedicated to building breweries. I for one would prefer talking about brewing beer, recipes, grain and hops. Possibly not in this GF /RB thread so I'll have a quick search.
> Bored shitless with how someone fitted a tap or element. Lucky there is Netflix


FTFY


----------



## BJB (7/1/17)

Zorco said:


> FTFY


----------



## Zorco (7/1/17)

F*ck I'm slow. I actually had to google that. [emoji14]

Fair play BJB...... no worries.

I'm Back on topic again now


----------



## paulyman (7/1/17)

Zorco said:


> F*ck I'm slow. I actually had to google that. [emoji14]
> 
> Fair play BJB...... no worries.
> 
> I'm Back on topic again now


OT, but from the posts I've seen, Zorco I love that you can take as much as you can deliver. That's a rare trait.


----------



## SBOB (7/1/17)

Zorco said:


> I just finished rebuilding my brewery today.
> 
> Not a thread and only on topic because I've left a spot in the corner for a GF/RB
> [emoji39]
> ...


needs more keg storage ... and probably another fridge


----------



## welly2 (7/1/17)

Feldon said:


> The process might be the same, but the brewer is not the same. You've let a machine take command of important parts - eg. maintaining mash temperature. You also make no mention of your knowledge of the design of the system, What, for example, was that particular diameter/height ratio chosen for the Grainfather. Its important because optimal mash tun ratios are different to boil kettle ratios, and single vessel systems combine both. People who have built their own systems have had to wrestle with these issues, made decisions, make mistakes and learned. Do you know? Perhaps you don't care (and that's OK - I don't know why the engineers at Toyota chose the particular compression ratio for my Camry. But I don't pretend to be Stirling Moss). A craftsman cares about his equipment as much as his recipe and processes.
> 
> The point I'm making is that craftmanship in brewing, like anything else, is about what you as a person bring to it. It is in your attitude and your ethics, the sense of value you place in living your life on your terms (not living the life someone you don't know has programmed for you). As I said earlier its a sliding scale. To pursue craftmanship to its ultimate ends we would all be growing our own barley and capturing wild yeast. But I just think it is important the brewing process retains as much of its craft base as it once did when we brewed our beer after boiling our socks in the laundry copper.


None of this is important. What so ever. If it was then a brewer moving from one system to another would need to build each system to make good beer. Your brewing rig is incidental as much as a guitarist doesn't need to know how to make a guitar to be a great guitarist. 

Seriously, did you manufacture your own mash tun or your own boil kettle to your exact specification so you knew the mash tun ratios and boil kettle ratios?

I bet you didn't. I bet you picked a pot off the shelf that suited your volume requirements and adjusted your processes to suit. As we all do. Absolutely nothing you speak of has any impact on the brewing process. We adjust our processes to suit our equipment.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (7/1/17)

Although Brian May (with the help of his Dad) did build the guitar that he played on all but one of Queen's tracks. Everything else you say is quite correct though


----------



## Benn (8/1/17)

Crazy little thing called love, no red special there. 









Mash tun


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (8/1/17)

Yes that's the one - the Bastards all ganged up and forced him to play a Telecaster. How very dare they!


----------



## Brownsworthy (8/1/17)

It was actually a fender esquire in the recording he used a tele for live performances.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (8/1/17)

I don't think it would have mattered what guitar he played - he was so clean and melodic that it would have sounded just as good on an ES 339, a Jazzmaster, a Strat or whatever.


----------



## malt junkie (8/1/17)

welly2 said:


> None of this is important. What so ever. If it was then a brewer moving from one system to another would need to build each system to make good beer. Your brewing rig is incidental as much as a guitarist doesn't need to know how to make a guitar to be a great guitarist. Ah but he has to know how to play, a guitar well and learn to do so, before he ever becomes great. Building your own system forces you to learn the brewing process, I believe that was the point being made.
> 
> Seriously, did you manufacture your own mash tun or your own boil kettle to your exact specification so you knew the mash tun ratios and boil kettle ratios? Yes and the watt density of the elements. And chose an appropriate pump for flow rates and head.
> 
> I bet you didn't. I bet you picked a pot off the shelf that suited your volume requirements and adjusted your processes to suit. As we all do. Absolutely nothing you speak of has any impact on the brewing process. We adjust our processes to suit our equipment. How do you adjust a process you don't understand except badly, and even from that you will learn something.


Back on topic, if the GF came out with a 60L odd batch size I'd be all over it. They won't because a standard single circuit can only provide 10 amps or 2400w of power (I learnt that while building numerous brew rigs)

MJ 

ED: AHB formatting playing silly buggers


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/1/17)

I like the analogy of the Huawei and the Apple i phone, both do the same basic things but one is half price to the other, I have found KK to be accommodating with any issues I have had. But looking at the perspective of the Grainfather $1125 retail, equates to around about $500 wholesale, taking into account GST and delivery. The $500 dollar the wholesaler charges will end up around about $200 to $230 cost to the wholesaler from the manufacturer so between the two appliances the difference in manufacturing price is minimal, without comparing them I couldn't say where the differences might be. But in the Australian market, price always seems to be a key aspect, that's why I believe Robobrew will outsell Grainfather in Australia which is only a small market anyway.
As for non certification of electrical goods it only costs about $800 or $900 and they would be pretty stupid not to get a tick of approval,and if they have been selling goods without SAA certification then they should be reported to the ACCC.


----------



## SBOB (8/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I like the analogy of the Huawei and the Apple i phone, both do the same basic things but one is half price to the other, I have found KK to be accommodating with any issues I have had. But looking at the perspective of the Grainfather $1125 retail, equates to around about $500 wholesale, taking into account GST and delivery.


you're assuming retailers are paying ~$500 cost price for a grainfather?
I'm gonna go with a nope on that, based on the lack of discounting we see on it (from anyone)


----------



## Bridges (8/1/17)

SBOB said:


> you're assuming retailers are paying ~$500 cost price for a grainfather?
> I'm gonna go with a nope on that, based on the lack of discounting we see on it (from anyone)


Why would any retailer discount it? As far as I can see they are still selling well not that I am saying there is any collusion or anything going on just that whilst they are still selling well no one would be tempted to drop the price.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/1/17)

Any retailer not marking up a minimum of 100% is a retailer destined to go under.


----------



## BKBrews (8/1/17)

I already own a grainfather, I'm just here to say Feldon has lost the plot


----------



## mtb (8/1/17)

BKBrews said:


> I already own a grainfather, I'm just here to say Feldon has lost the plot


Not without our lack of trying in finding it for him..


----------



## TwoCrows (8/1/17)

This is Australia , retail outlets mark up 300% as a norm.

Then give a discount, more discount, then discontinue. New stock.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (8/1/17)

mtb said:


> Not without our lack of trying in finding it for him..


Respec on da man's birfday y'all!

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/3528-birthday-drinks/page-213#entry1428786


----------



## SBOB (8/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Any retailer not marking up a minimum of 100% is a retailer destined to go under.


on every product in their store?

Man, based on my retail background then, there isnt a single electrical retailer in this country that shouldnt have gone under by now.


----------



## SBOB (8/1/17)

Bridges said:


> Why would any retailer discount it? As far as I can see they are still selling well not that I am saying there is any collusion or anything going on just that whilst they are still selling well no one would be tempted to drop the price.


You would expect to see at least one or two of the online brew stores selling them cheaper to win business

Based on WEAL's markup calculations, with >$600 profit on the new one at RRP, being able to sell more of them with (for example) $400 profit when no one else is discounting would be a pretty simple way to increase turnover and overall profits


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/1/17)

Having been on both sides of the fence I do know how it works, different to white goods if that is what you are selling. Everything would need 100% mark up, it is the Chinese mentality that if they make it cheaper they will sell more, all that does is cause a price war then the only ones making any money are the manufacturer / wholesaler and in the end the item isn't worth stocking because there is no profit in it.
Also Grainfather would have to get more items in its armory to stay viable, so maybe they will have to come up with bigger capacity models, just relying on one item, even though they are in Europe and USA will not be enough.


----------



## LAGERFRENZY (8/1/17)

In order to outsell the Grainfather Keg King would need to have Robobrews in roughly as many strategic outlets as those currently stocking Grainfathers. Now the Grainfather distribution model is an established and mature one. They have developed a very harmonious relationship with retailers and have been very cooperative with returns, spares and warranty claims. They have reps on the ground in all States and Territories who support retailers with brewing demos and product information days.

I am not saying that it would be impossible for the Robobrew folks to match that but they would need to be getting a finger out to start doing it. This is another reason as to why the $1200 Apple smart phone continues to outsell the $600 Huawei, not just because of the better finish of the product and reputation of the brand.


----------



## TwoCrows (8/1/17)

Apple is Apple. It is an accessory as much as it is a phone. That's is one reason why it sells. What is the mark up on an IPhone? 

Not all products are 300% mark up , some are 400-500%. Some are not. 

Australia is a country that trades with "what the market will bear" attitude to sales. Forced taxes and trade incentives. Companies sell at what customers are willing to pay.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/1/17)

Agree with you LAGERFRENZY but does KK and Robobrew have to go into direct competition with Grainfather the answer is no, KK have a whole shitload of brewing components Robobrew is a small part of their operation whereas Grainfather is one out and competing in a small market. I would like to think that ours( homebrew ) was a rapidly expanding market but in truth it is not. All to common to see HBS closing down, a enthusiastic homebrewer opens up a HBS because he is being led by his heart not his head.
As for Apple iphones the last i read about the cost to produce one was 60 cents if they could get the robots to perform.


----------



## SBOB (8/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As for Apple iphones the last i read about the cost to produce *assemble *one was 60 cents if they could get the robots to perform.


assembling for a few cents is more likely
Apple still has to buy the chips, batteries, screens etc from other suppliers


----------



## manticle (8/1/17)

Grainfather is one product from a stable WEAL. Mangrove jacks range, whole bunch of distilling related gizmos, etc.


----------



## Brownsworthy (8/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Any retailer not marking up a minimum of 100% is a retailer destined to go under.


 I once managed a crown dealership for Husqvarna and Honda power equipment and the mark ups were definitely not 100%. You can't sell stuff for more than the advertised rrp. Replacement parts and consumables is a different story but when dealing with the someone like Honda, with their power equipment, mark up is sometimes only 35-40%.


----------



## Benn (8/1/17)

I'm loving this thread.
R.I.P Freddy








Hot liquor tank


----------



## welly2 (8/1/17)

malt junkie said:


> I bet you didn't. I bet you picked a pot off the shelf that suited your volume requirements and adjusted your processes to suit. As we all do. Absolutely nothing you speak of has any impact on the brewing process. We adjust our processes to suit our equipment.
> 
> How do you adjust a process you don't understand except badly, and even from that you will learn something.
> 
> What are you talking about a process I don't understand except badly? I've run almost 30 batches through my grainfather this year. I think I know this system inside and out. And I still couldn't tell you the height/width ratio. But I'm still getting 80+% efficiency every batch.


----------



## welly2 (8/1/17)

Feldon said:


> No, that's silly (and you know it is).
> 
> You more than others should know what I mean by craftmanship, as I take it from previos posts you have spent many years in professional kitchens. There you would have seen craftmanship at work - they are called chefs. Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never. They know by sight, taste, smell, touch or sound how much to add - how much vinegar to add to the mayonaise, how much salt to season the broth etc. They are craftsmen. They have learned their craft from their master as an apprentice, and testing themselves time and time again until they got it right. For a hundred common dishes they don't need recipe books. They know how ingredients perform together. The same goes for the application of heat. A recipe might say "cook on a medium heat for 5 minutes". A chef will just cook it till its right, using his senses to inform his memory.
> 
> ...


I'm struggling to see how your analogy has anything to do with building a system. If nothing else, you've undone your argument and described exactly what a craftsman brewer is doing - making a beer from their experience and knowledge of the craft rather than following recipes. This has nothing to do with being able to fabricate a mash tun in the same way a chef doesn't need to be able to make his own knives to be a properly trained chef. Do properly trained chefs need to an expert bladesmith to make an excellent pie? Of course not.


----------



## Zorco (9/1/17)

While OT and the new soul of this thread, I'd like to add in with my view. 

Knowing the hardware matters. Brewing is process engineering and mechanical engineering. Those engineers are taught to fabricate equipment and systems and the practical experience in doing so ensures they understand the first principles of the systems.

Understanding the science, exploring the brewing process and building your own brew rig to do so are well regarded steps to becoming the accomplished Brewer.

And to qualify 'accomplished', I mean brewing within the framework of complete scalability - of any brewery size. 

And I'm happy to point out that this might be the dividing path for people here. Grainfather and brewmeister owners, whom have never built a brewery are going to make great beers - but I would assert that none of them would become head Brewers at commercial scale. And that's not a criticism by any means. People don't want that outcome.

I reckon people who delve into making their own brewery ultimately have that as an option though, depending on luck, dedication and education.

My grandfather was a butcher and taught me basic metallurgy. My mate has left electrical engineering to do medicine and will always understand the first principles of his equipment and systems. One of the Brisbane Brewers here is a top machinist and is skilled to the nines but chooses to use a braumeister. To me, truly skilled craftsmen know their equipment intimately and can make stuff.

People can craft great things without all knowledge. If that craftsman doesn't know every detail, then he/she relies on someone else.

It is clear as day to me that these all in one brew systems are simplifying brewing and therefore their new owners may be relying on others to enable their craft more than people who have designed and built a rig themselves.

But I think it is awesome that all grain brewing is becoming so accessible to more and more people.

As manticle and others have mentioned, we are only really discussing the wort making phase.... there is so much more to get right to make great beer.

I don't think robobrew has taken over.[emoji41]


----------



## bwhouse (9/1/17)

Zorco said:


> Knowing the hardware matters. Brewing is process engineering and mechanical engineering. Those engineers are taught to fabricate equipment and systems and the practical experience in doing so ensures they understand the first principles of the systems.
> 
> Understanding the science, exploring the brewing process and building your own brew rig to do so are well regarded steps to becoming the accomplished Brewer.
> 
> ...


If I understand correctly you are basically referring to the brewing science and gaining a real understanding as to why breweries are designed how they are and why smaller 3v, 2v or 1v are designed how they are. So I think we are confusing the desire to learn and the need to learn. 

Whilst building a brewery, you are often forced to learn this science as you have to make design choices (although I would challenge this as most builds I have seen these days are just a copy of someone else build), for many people 'doing' is a great way to learn and they will ultimately come out with a great foundation of knowledge. But it is important to understand that is just one way of learning, I honestly believe that you can learn all of that brewing science and engineering by reading and understanding. So someone who buys a GF, RB or BM has just the same ability to learn if they so desire. 

Yes this new technology allows you to brew great beer with out learning that foundational science behind brewing, but it is dangerous to generalize and assume that all people who buy an off the self system and invest in new technology are in this camp and dont spend the time and energy still understanding why the system is designed how it is.


----------



## woodwormm (9/1/17)

I've only used my robo once . But for the price Love it. 

I spent 40 minutes pawing over a GF in the shop and couldn't see where over 1k goes. Have also spenta lot of time ogling the Brau and again can't see the dollars. 

I bought the robo sight unseen and it's great for the dollars. If it dies inside 12 months I have a warranty. If it dies after that I'm in front anyway as beer I like to buy is 70-80 bucks per ctn and every time I do a brew I make 2 ctns for less than 50. Doesn't take long for this bit of kit to pay for itself.

I've built a single vessel system that I morphed into a 2 1/2 and I've always had cars and motorbikes as hobbies. I get the building it ideas but with work and young kids this thing gets me brewing again. 

Oh and yes they've gotten rid of the cake rack but the New system is not easy either . Makes it difficult th get malt pipe in/out . The bracket in mine dislodged first use and I went straight for the Ikea cake stand . I won't put the original back in.


----------



## Zorco (9/1/17)

All good points and agree mate. 

If I can only add this: learning the engineering requires doing for that person to have really learnt it. If I had to shine a light on one point then that is probably it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (9/1/17)

manticle said:


> Grainfather is one product from a stable WEAL. Mangrove jacks range, whole bunch of distilling related gizmos, etc.


As I haven't had much interest in Grainfather I wasn't aware of this, thanks for pointing that out manticle



Brownsworthy said:


> I once managed a crown dealership for Husqvarna and Honda power equipment and the mark ups were definitely not 100%. You can't sell stuff for more than the advertised rrp. Replacement parts and consumables is a different story but when dealing with the someone like Honda, with their power equipment, mark up is sometimes only 35-40%.


That could be a similar situation to a white goods retailer the mark up is low but the annual kick back makes up for it,every product I sold as a wholesaler was always marked up over the 100% quite often a lot more from shampoo to evaporative coolers. There are people on here who I have provided with flow valves for the cost of postage they cost me 42 cents go into a hydroponic shop they are $27 everything is worth what people are prepared to pay.
That is what I thought this thread was about, what you get for the money, if there are 2 products similar with a great difference in retail price one should ask why, after the years I spent sourcing products in China and knowing how much things really cost before they come down the chain to the consumer I absolutely now hate paying full price for anything, that is why I wanted to know what others are paying for gas and electricty, and our freezer is chockers with legs of lamb, pork, chickens and the occasional piece of blade beef all bought from Safeway, the day before the use by date they mark it down to cost,50% off so the meat we buy at the supermarket also has a 100% mark up.


----------



## TwoCrows (12/1/17)

The Robobrew range Youtube upload 11-1-2017







Also interesting is what is in the background ................. Conical fermenter???


----------



## peekaboo_jones (12/1/17)

Yes they now have a machine to make conical fermenters too.
For single infusion mashing, I still say the pick of the robobrew's is the updated one without the pump.
Bigger malt pipe capacity and simple machinery.
I've got the oldest one but will be getting the bigger malt pipe soon.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/1/17)

I went and had a look at the Robobrew and definitely can't see where the $530 difference in price comes in against the Grainfather.
Also Guten Kitchen Appliances which was on the link posted earlier, I inquired after their 50 liter Robobrew look alike with a step mash system. But the 50 liter is presently under manufacture they offered me a 40 liter with pump and step mash program which gives a 30 liter into fermenter for $233 (USD) for one, and $139 each for a couple of hundred.
I will stick with my Braumeister for now but will get a 50 liter Guten when it becomes available.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=guten+kitchen+equipment&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=593&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVvZLMj7zRAhUMe7wKHVObBsAQsAQIGQ


----------



## Batz (12/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I will stick with my Braumeister for now but will get a 50 liter Guten when it becomes available.
> https://www.google.com.au/search?q=guten+kitchen+equipment&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=593&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVvZLMj7zRAhUMe7wKHVObBsAQsAQIGQ


There ya go.


----------



## kirem (12/1/17)

I am also waiting on the 50L Guten.


----------



## crowmanz (13/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Also Guten Kitchen Appliances which was on the link posted earlier, I inquired after their 50 liter Robobrew look alike with a step mash system. But the 50 liter is presently under manufacture they offered me a 40 liter with pump and step mash program which gives a 30 liter into fermenter for $233 (USD) for one, and $139 each for a couple of hundred.
> I will stick with my Braumeister for now but will get a 50 liter Guten when it becomes available.



They give any indication of when the 50L will be ready?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/1/17)

I did ask, but among the questions asked that is one she did not reply to, I will give her a reminder, maybe they are trying to unload their stock of 40 liter models, if they will come down with their price for the 40 L as a clearance I may go for it, will allow me to do the same volume but a heavier beer.
There is another company where the models go to 60 liter might be worth dropping them a line.


----------



## SixStar (13/1/17)

The GF connect is amazing. Hands down I was totally impressed.


----------



## fungrel (14/1/17)

the connect still has a lot of development to be done, but at far it is a solid product


----------



## fdsaasdf (15/1/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I did ask, but among the questions asked that is one she did not reply to, I will give her a reminder, maybe they are trying to unload their stock of 40 liter models, if they will come down with their price for the 40 L as a clearance I may go for it, will allow me to do the same volume but a heavier beer.
> There is another company where the models go to 60 liter might be worth dropping them a line.


Thanks for the sharing the information. Is https://kingkitchen.en.alibaba.com/product/60572914711-803648010/50L_HOMEBREW_BEER_MAACHINE_BREW_POT_BREWING_SYSTEM_CUSTOMIZED_BEER_BARRIL_PARA_CERVEZA.html the 50L system you're referring to? 

I'm sure there would be a lot of interest in a bulk buy. I'm building a brew in a basket system to do double batches at a fraction of the cost of the 50L Braumeister, but would probably grab something like this Chinese unit off the shelf if it were available.


----------



## peteru (15/1/17)

Although I recently bought a Grainfather with the Connect controller, I'm far from impressed and definitely not in the fanboi camp. I found the tech support staff at Grainfather slow to respond and generally unhelpful. The product itself is squarely in the cheap Chinese category, but the price tag isn't. QA is poor.

I can't offer a first hand opinion on the Robobrew, but if the new pump version is built to the same standards as Grainfather at a price tag that's less than 50% of the Grainfather, then it seems like a better deal. The Robobrew seems to have a number of things that make it better than the Grainfather:

separate drain valve
false bottom
handles
recirculation pipe / lid arrangement that isn't a nightmare to get on/off
handles on the lid
integrated controller (I'd like to see a SmartPID upgrade option). The Grainfather Connect controller does not fit in the bracket and can not be secured to the unit. Tipping liquids from the bottom of the Grainfather will result in the controller simply falling out, possibly smashing on the floor.
simple immersion chiller instead of counterflow chiller (the Grainfather chiller is a pain in the arse, too much cleaning, inconvenient positioning, useless in Australian climate when tap water is over 20C)
no ball and spring in the recirculation valve to get clogged
concealed temperature probe
2400W max with 1900W and 500W options (as opposed to 2000W max on GF, with 500W or 2000W on old model and 0-2000W in 3% increments on new models)
It's a shame that the new Robobrew with pump wasn't available 3 or 4 months ago. I think I would have opted for it. If I was buying today, I'd be certainly giving Robobrew a go in preference to the Grainfather.

To answer the original question, I think the Robobrew with a pump is a better proposal than a Grainfather as far as bang for buck goes. If the Robobrew can be upgraded with SmartPID in the future, then it will surpass Grainfather in terms of features AND price.


----------



## fungrel (15/1/17)

peteru said:


> Although I recently bought a Grainfather with the Connect controller, I'm far from impressed and definitely not in the fanboi camp. I found the tech support staff at Grainfather slow to respond and generally unhelpful. The product itself is squarely in the cheap Chinese category, but the price tag isn't. QA is poor.
> 
> I can't offer a first hand opinion on the Robobrew, but if the new pump version is built to the same standards as Grainfather at a price tag that's less than 50% of the Grainfather, then it seems like a better deal. The Robobrew seems to have a number of things that make it better than the Grainfather:
> 
> ...


Can me a fanboi, but.. 

*I dont want handles on the lid
*definitely don't want an integrated controller. I want to be able to upgrade only one part, not the whole unit. 
*I do want a CFC
*I do want a non concealed temp probe that I can swap out for something different 

There are some things that can definitely be changed, but we are talking about the brewing community here. I think any brand of units need to be based on a modular design, allowing for endless combinations of modifications. I don't think that kk have thought enough about how this unit will work in 5-10 years time. Just my opinion though.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/1/17)

That's the one fdsaaf, I don't know whether their would be enough interest in a bulk buy I would be prepared to buy one and give a report back, the other company I saw selling them was Aurora Kitchen Products, I had another look for them yesterday but couldn't find them I will look again today.

A candid report there peteru, the ones I have seen on Alibaba are all pretty similar design, taken the simplest route for recirculating the wort, which, I am no expert on fluid dynamics, but it wouldn't take that many more dollars to recirculate as the Braumeister, pushing the flow through the wort to the top and having the pump breaks so the grain can move and fall back. I just feel that is the better way to recirculate.


----------



## fdsaasdf (15/1/17)

Fair enough, but even for a lot of 10 or 20 it might make sense for the supplier to provide a better rate per unit and with shipping. I imagine shipping one individually could almost double the purchase cost.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/1/17)

They put 21 on a pallet, so for instance if they drop the price then there would be customs clearance and taxes to pay, the price they have quoted for shipping is sending it EMS. When I was in China you could get top up space for a container for between $40 and $70 if you knew some one, sometimes it is best to go it alone and avoid any import costs.


----------



## rude (15/1/17)

So single sample of the 30 L Guten is $233 & $158 US for postage $391 which is $521.30 Aust
It would be nice to see some better pics of all the gear, false bottom, pump etc.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/1/17)

I have seen the crap video they put out doesn't really show much, the way I see it is $500 isn't going to break the bank and the 3 Chinese mash tuns are much the same and after reading peteru's review not a lot to lose.


----------



## welly2 (15/1/17)

Also a "fan boi" but I've found support excellent. I needed the silicon seals replacing when I first got my Grainfather - they responded quickly and I had a set of replacement seals in no time. Perhaps that speaks of QA issues but whatever. Also needed a replacement silicon cap for the filter as I somehow lost mine, after getting in touch with iMake they said they didn't have the silicon filter cap available as individual parts and so they'd sent me a complete filter replacement. I emailed them back to thank them and find out how much I owed them, they responded with saying it was on the house. Very kind.

In response to your other comments:



peteru said:


> *separate drain valve*
> Actually, this would be pretty useful. I'd agree here.
> 
> *false bottom*
> ...


----------



## Coldspace (15/1/17)

I love my Grain father,

I got one of the original models after mashing in eskies and doing extract brewing with an immersion heater and bucket of death in the good old days.

Mines been through over 100 batches now. Most double batched. The unit has not caused me any issues.
The chiller works good, I find if I use it then I run the wort through it and back into the boiler for 5-10 mins to drop the heat down to say 60 then into fermenter. This works best in Brisbane heat, I only used the chiller 10 times as I basically no chill for time and convience of gathering up cubes for future fermentations.
My only gripe and its not the units fault is the capacity, but probably because me and a couple of mates and brother are piss heads this cant keep up with production when I only have time to run it every fortnight/3 weeks.

If I had time, I would love to build a mega Grain father like the ones other guys are building in the 100 ltr size, but my job is just too busy to allow this .

Ive basically refined the double batch high grav mashs with this thing and on agood run can get 45 ltrs at 1050 out of it. But still not enough.

I was comtemplating selling it . Only to upgrade to a 50 ltr Breumeister to do doubles in it but the new ones are basically 4 k with the water jacket feature and id only get half my coin back on the GF so its would be a 3.5 K investment. I have an understanding wife but ATM could not justify the extra coin to her after buying flooded fonts , kegmenters etc.lol i really wood love a breaumeister though as they are quality but the gf is pretty good too.
I told my brother he need to invest half into another unit if they want to keep drinkin around here.
So he went and grab another of the run out models for agood price on Thursday as we don't need that connect stuff ATM.

I'm lucky I have lots of power in my shed, I installed another 2 circuits with power points in carport.
We run 2 G/fathers and 2 urns and also plug in an over the side immersion heater to help the units get to strike and boil faster , espesically double batches .45 amps at max capacity, but its fast when we use the over side element as well. Can clean and hose up under carport and put it away so SWMBO can park her car back lol.

We tried the over night mash last night/ tks Batz for the tips,

Did the boil first up this morning, got 4 x 15 ltr cubes at 1066, so around 21 ltrs each when we water them down to 1053. perfect for 4 cornies.
Did second run, today got 4 x 15 ltr cubes at 1060 , so another 4 cornies, all cleaned up, 8 cubes sitting in my pool ready for yeast .

It was the best option for me to upgrade production as I only had to tip in half of another setup, and my brother grabed agood deal on a left over standard grainfather.

Cheers


----------



## SBOB (15/1/17)

Coldspace said:


> and my brother grabed agood deal on a left over standard grainfather.


what kind of deal$?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/1/17)

Keg King had a deal on a Robobrew last week 1 st model with the pump for $490.


----------



## Kingy (15/1/17)

Some really good reviews in this thread [emoji106]


----------



## Bribie G (20/1/17)

I mailed KK who informed me that they are running test brews on the 65L model. 

Not too far away now.


----------



## crowmanz (20/1/17)

Has there been any indication of ballpark figures for the 65L?


----------



## Bob_Loblaw (23/1/17)

crowmanz said:


> Has there been any indication of ballpark figures for the 65L?


No idea, but based on their pricing of the 35L I'd wager they'll still come in under the Grainfather price for the 65.

Having run the Robobrew with a magnetic drive pump for over a year now I can attest to it's ability to make great beer. Having not used a Grainfather I can't really speak about the difference in quality between them, but there are a couple of issues that the Robobrew has had in terms of quality:


Control unit screen goes blank - this has only happened to me once during a boil but others have experienced it more often. Simple fix in the moment is to switch off and on again
Handles are only spot welded on - I tried to re-position my unit with a full load of wort on board and ripped one of them off.

Other than that, the shortcomings that I've had to overcome with my unit (1st Gen) have been fixed by KK in subsequent versions.


----------



## Mr_Brewer (23/1/17)

i will second that the Robobrew for me was not too good
lid had rust marks
and controller kept cutting out
So i send back and got full refund they were good about it but be aware ??
now trying to run the Brauduino


----------

