# Using Crystal Grains



## tcraig20 (12/2/08)

Ive got some crystal grains here to throw in my next brew. The problem is that Ive got 3 different opinions on how to use them from 3 different sources.

First, boil the grains for 20 minutes. Second, steep the grains in boiling water for 30 minutes. Third, steep them at 72C for 30 minutes.

Anyone got any more opinions to add? :lol:


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## Adamt (12/2/08)

The first two are wrong.

Steep in any water below 72C for 30 minutes, strain, and boil the resultant liquid for 15-20 minutes. If you're going to steep around 65-70C, you might as well do a partial mash!


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## Barry (12/2/08)

Good Day
You should steep the grains around the 65 to 75oC. IMHO you should not boil any specialty malts unless there is some very specific reason for doing so. In most cases temps over 80oc can lead to the extraction of tannins etc. Of course decoction is a special exception.


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## Wardhog (12/2/08)

I used to steep mine for 30 minutes in water around 70C, then boil the malty water for however long I needed to, with minimum being 30 minutes.

If I had 60 minute hop additions for a beer, it'd get boiled for 60 minutes. If I didn't, 30 minutes was all it was boiled for.


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## geoffi (12/2/08)

I've started using the 'German' method for decoction mashes. Specialty grains (esp dark grains) only go in at mash-out. It is supposed to prevent tannins and excessive burnt flavours.



Barry said:


> Good Day
> You should steep the grains around the 65 to 75oC. IMHO you should not boil any specialty malts unless there is some very specific reason for doing so. In most cases temps over 80oc can lead to the extraction of tannins etc. Of course decoction is a special exception.


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## Fatgodzilla (12/2/08)

Also have read many conflicting answers, but the basic tenet for us bottom end brewers is soak at less than 70c.

Have read (here / somewhere) that the soaking of crystal can also be a long one at cooler temperatures. Can anyone say that an overnight soak at a starting temperature of (say) 65C will not have the same effect as 30min at 70C. The reason is easier to do this at night ready for next morning's strain and boil. But does it work effectively ?


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## Trough Lolly (12/2/08)

As Adam and Barry are pointing out, crystal grains are converted malt and all we need to do is wash the sugars out of the grains. A steep is all that's required to do that. When I was steeping 250g of crystal, I added the grains to a pot (either loose or in a bag - your choice), with a couple of litres of cold tap water and slowly brought the solution up to 70C on the stove. Stir regularly to avoid grains sticking to the base of the pot and scorching. Once you have the solution heated to 70C, you can then remove the grains and drizzle some additional 70C water over the grains to wash out all the sugars - you can see how a bag is helpful for this step. Don't use more than a litre or so of rinsing water since excessive sparging may draw out tannins from the grains.

Once you've extracted the sugars, you're free to boil the grain free sweet liquor and hop accordingly.

Cheers,
TL


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## bconnery (12/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Also have read many conflicting answers, but the basic tenet for us bottom end brewers is soak at less than 70c.
> 
> Have read (here / somewhere) that the soaking of crystal can also be a long one at cooler temperatures. Can anyone say that an overnight soak at a starting temperature of (say) 65C will not have the same effect as 30min at 70C. The reason is easier to do this at night ready for next morning's strain and boil. But does it work effectively ?


The long soak described here is usually done as cold steeping, rather than at 65...
So just put them in a pot overnight in cold water, then straina nd boil as usual...

I believe this method is reported to give a smoother resulting flavour, and is more often used with "harsher" grains, those roasted for longer such as chocolate, black etc. 

I've never tried it myself though.


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## vchead (13/2/08)

I have also read that after steeping the crystal grain then straining out the husks, the liquid can go straight into the fermenter with the K&K, hops and yeast.

Is this correct or does there need to be a boil?

Rodders


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## geoffi (13/2/08)

I think that's asking for big trouble. Grains are covered in lactobacillus and other goodies. Whether you cold or hot steep, you definitely need to boil the resulting wort for at least 15 minutes.



Rodders said:


> I have also read that after steeping the crystal grain then straining out the husks, the liquid can go straight into the fermenter with the K&K, hops and yeast.
> 
> Is this correct or does there need to be a boil?
> 
> Rodders


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## brettprevans (13/2/08)

bconnery said:


> The long soak described here is usually done as cold steeping, rather than at 65...
> So just put them in a pot overnight in cold water, then straina nd boil as usual...
> 
> I believe this method is reported to give a smoother resulting flavour, and is more often used with "harsher" grains, those roasted for longer such as chocolate, black etc.
> ...


Ive used BConnery's example of starting the grains out in cold water then slowly bringing them up to about 65C over a 30min period then leaving them to steep at that temp for about 30min. then strain and boil for at least 15 min. I get great results. So I suppose that method is a combination of cold and hot steeping. actually I guess its almost a minimash method.

a 15 min boil is worth the time as opposed to the potential of infection. boil the liquor and kill the nasties. you should be boiling some malt extract with your hops anyway so add the grain liquor with your malt and water to boil with your hop additions.


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## tcraig20 (13/2/08)

Thanks guys, great advice as usual. 

I think I might have a crack at cold steeping first, seems the easiest and most convinient.


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## EK (13/2/08)

Rodders said:


> I have also read that after steeping the crystal grain then straining out the husks, the liquid can go straight into the fermenter with the K&K, hops and yeast.
> 
> Is this correct or does there need to be a boil?
> 
> Rodders



I have made two brews (Kit & Bits) with specialty grains. Each time I followed the instructions given by the HBS and both brews were infected. :angry: Just for reference here are the instructions that I DO NOT RECOMMEND.

Upon finding AHB and researching the use of specialty grains, I went and queried the HBS: "Should I boil the liquid after I remove the grains?" answer: "No, for God's sake. don't do that. You will release the tannins." To which I replied: "No no, _after_ I remove the grains." answer: "No, you don't want the tannins. Just put it into the fermenter, it'll be fine." Both brews were infected and needed to be turfed. :icon_vomit: 

So...I would probably recommend the boil...which I will be, hopefully, trying in the next few weeks.

Goddammit HBS's @#%& me off! It is bloody hard to get the same information from two different stores and @#%&ing hard to get correct info.

EK


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## the_fuzz (13/2/08)

EK said:


> IEach time I followed the instructions given by the HBS and both brews were infected. :angry:



Hey mate,

I would look elsewhere for the infection - what type of infection was it - how did you know it was infected?


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## drsmurto (13/2/08)

Clicked on the link cos i couldnt believe a HBS store would actually provide such wrong advice. Nope. They do. Thats seriously bad shite. You spend all that time sanitising fermenters, taps etc and then your HBS advocates that! Point them in this direction mate, seems they are the ones that need to learn how to actually brew! Find a new HBS mate (after telling him wrong they are)


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## RobboMC (13/2/08)

I don't boil my grain steepings. I'm up to brew number 7 with steeped grain and so far no infections, so I'm with What's Wrong with, look elsewhere for the infection.

Palmer's book recommends that any grain be added to 'strike' water at around 40 deg C, then heated to the required temp and held for around 30-40 minutes. Palmer also recommends boiling the resulting wort.

Don''t be frightened by grains that need mashing. I tried one in only my 4th grain effort, just 500g in a few litres of water. I was surprised to find that it's not any harder than steeping, just start with water at 30 to 40 deg C, heat and stir. A metal backed thermometer from the HBS would be a good idea and of course a re-usable grain bag. Don't forget to rinse with HOT water and not boiling water, I made this mistake a few times as well.


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## EK (13/2/08)

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> I would look elsewhere for the infection - what type of infection was it - how did you know it was infected?


It gave me headaches and made another bloke who tried it sick for a day and a half. I have had no other infections before or since. I am still using the same equipment and bottles. The saucepan and sieve I used were steralised beforehand. The water boiled for 5 minutes and allowed to cool to 70 before I added the grain. Other than the grain, there was no difference in the process I observe.

Unless I am missing something then I believe it was infected. However, if you have other thoughts as to how it could have been infected then I am interested in hearing about it.

EK


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## EK (13/2/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Clicked on the link cos i couldnt believe a HBS store would actually provide such wrong advice. Nope. They do. Thats seriously bad shite. You spend all that time sanitising fermenters, taps etc and then your HBS advocates that! Point them in this direction mate, seems they are the ones that need to learn how to actually brew! Find a new HBS mate (after telling him wrong they are)




Unfortunately on the north side of Brisbane, HBS are like ducks teeth and most are crap (the saga of my first brew would need pages to tell...I might post it someday). Also, none of my mates brew, so I was fumbling in the dark a bit. That's when I started looking online for info and found AHB  

I find it very difficult to trust any advice that I get from home brew stores, though the guys at Quality Home Brew Supplies at Slacks Creek (Brisbane's south side) are pretty good. Basically I get most of my advice from my fellow AHB'ers and have been very happy with results of my brews since finding AHB. :icon_cheers: 

EK


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## Darren (13/2/08)

EK said:


> It gave me headaches and made another bloke who tried it sick for a day and a half. I have had no other infections before or since. I am still using the same equipment and bottles. The saucepan and sieve I used were steralised beforehand. The water boiled for 5 minutes and allowed to cool to 70 before I added the grain. Other than the grain, there was no difference in the process I observe.
> 
> Unless I am missing something then I believe it was infected. However, if you have other thoughts as to how it could have been infected then I am interested in hearing about it.
> 
> EK




EK,

Not boiling would certainly have been the source.

cheers

Darren


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## pint of lager (13/2/08)

Grains are a well known source of infections.

Crystal (and chocolate, roast, carapils, carafa) does not need mashing, just a steep.

Steep your crystal (or specialty) grain at 30-60 deg for about 20-30 minutes. Use about a litre for 250 gms. Strain the grain off. Rinse with another litre. Do not squeeze. Throw grain away.

Boil the resulting solution for 10-20 minutes.

This is an ideal time to boil some specialty hops. Buy 30 gms of your favourite hop.

You are going to simmer for 20 minutes.
At the start of the simmer add 10 gms of hop
At the 10 minute mark add another 10 gms.
At the 19 minute mark add another 10 gms.
Simmer for 1 minute with the lid on, watch for boil overs.
Turn off heat. Stand pot in cold water. Avoid any splashing around lid. Change cooling water a few times.
Strain through sanitised strainer into fermenter.

Mashing is a special steep at very close to 65 degrees. This allows the enzymes in the grain to convert the starches into sachaarides (malt sugars.) Base grains must be mashed, not just steeped at any old temperature. Base grains are pale ale, schooner, Vienna, Munich, malted wheat, golden promise plus a few others I have forgotten. 

Never boil your grain (decoction is an advanced process where yes, you can boil) Never squeeze it to get the last malty goodness out.

Many mash brewers will crush their grain well away from the brewing area, as the dust can cause ongoing infection problems.


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## EK (13/2/08)

Thanks pint of lager,

Just curiously, why is it that the grain should not be squeezed?

EK


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## geoffi (13/2/08)

It's supposed to lead to tannin extraction. Never squeezed 'em myself, but I assume it to be true.



EK said:


> Thanks pint of lager,
> 
> Just curiously, why is it that the grain should not be squeezed?
> 
> EK


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## Online Brewing Supplies (13/2/08)

Geoffi said:


> I've started using the 'German' method for decoction mashes. Specialty grains (esp dark grains) only go in at mash-out. It is supposed to prevent tannins and excessive burnt flavours.


I like and agree with that.
GB


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## vchead (13/2/08)

This is all quality advice.

This may sound stupid but is it then OK to steep crystal grain, strain, boil liquid then add to normal K&K mix in the formenter? Or does the hopped malt extract from the can and the sugar/malt etc need to be boiled as well?

Rodders


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## Stuster (13/2/08)

Rodders said:


> This may sound stupid but is it then OK to steep crystal grain, strain, boil liquid then add to normal K&K mix in the formenter?



Not stupid, it's good to make sure you've got it right. This process is fine. No need to boil the kit etc. Steeping some grain like this does make a difference to a kit. Of course, it's the first step on the road to ruin. :lol:


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## geoffi (13/2/08)

I know people who boil the extract, and others who don't. Yo don't have to, but I believe it doesn't hurt.




Rodders said:


> This is all quality advice.
> 
> This may sound stupid but is it then OK to steep crystal grain, strain, boil liquid then add to normal K&K mix in the formenter? Or does the hopped malt extract from the can and the sugar/malt etc need to be boiled as well?
> 
> Rodders


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## Online Brewing Supplies (13/2/08)

Rodders said:


> This is all quality advice.
> 
> This may sound stupid but is it then OK to steep crystal grain, strain, boil liquid then add to normal K&K mix in the formenter? Or does the hopped malt extract from the can and the sugar/malt etc need to be boiled as well?
> 
> Rodders


Some can beer exracts actually are not good to boil , something about the type of hop extracts they add. ask Your local HBS .They should be able to tell you which kits to use if you want to boil.Personally I would get unhopped extract and add your own hops and speciaty grains.Its going to be more of a beer you made and better quality not to mention the fun.
GB


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## jendres (13/2/08)

EK said:


> I have made two brews (Kit & Bits) with specialty grains. Each time I followed the instructions given by the HBS and both brews were infected. :angry: Just for reference here are the instructions that I DO NOT RECOMMEND.
> 
> Upon finding AHB and researching the use of specialty grains, I went and queried the HBS: "Should I boil the liquid after I remove the grains?" answer: "No, for God's sake. don't do that. You will release the tannins." To which I replied: "No no, _after_ I remove the grains." answer: "No, you don't want the tannins. Just put it into the fermenter, it'll be fine." Both brews were infected and needed to be turfed. :icon_vomit:
> 
> ...



They must read this board. It has been taken down. The google cache is here.

QFT:


> The process used to extract flavour from the grains is called steeping. This is simply soaking the cracked grains in hot water and then removing the grains from the liquid. This can be done using a saucepan and a sieve or a muslin straining bag with the grains inside. It acts just like a teabag. Do not boil the grain as tannins will leach out, affecting the flavour.
> 
> How to:
> 
> ...



It depends on how you interpret "add the liquid to your brew" whether the info is correct. If you boil your brew, then ok. If not, then it is not. A small change and it would be good advice.


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## 0M39A (13/2/08)

RobboMC said:


> I don't boil my grain steepings. I'm up to brew number 7 with steeped grain and so far no infections, so I'm with What's Wrong with, look elsewhere for the infection.


 
No offence, but you're playing with a loaded gun there IMO.

As has already been stated, grains are a wonderful source for a whole load of bacteria.


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## Fatgodzilla (13/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Some can beer extracts actually are not good to boil , something about the type of hop extracts they add. ask Your local HBS .They should be able to tell you which kits to use if you want to boil.



Please don't label this narkish or condescending, but what HBS proprietor will know what kits to boil or not ? I've never seen a warning from a manufacturer saying "Don't boil this kit as it will cause ......" And I say this nicely cos most HBS owners want their kit buying clients to come back and buy the kits .. it is a business after all. I reckon also that if the general public had of known what kits should not be boiled, it would be repeated long and often here on AHB.

You probably got it right by saying "Some can beer extracts actually are not good " 



> Personally I would get unhopped extract and add your own hops and speciaty grains. Its going to be more of a beer you made and better quality not to mention the fun.



You and me both brother. IMHO this is the best thing brewers can do until such time as they have the whatfors and the dothings to enable AG. We all know despite that you can make a real good beer consistantly using extract as your malt base.


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## EK (13/2/08)

Jeff E said:


> They must read this board. It has been taken down. The google cache is here.



If they read this forum, then they should know better, and give proper advice. Perhaps Brewer's Choice have taken it down to improve it and put it back up? I will be watching that space to see what they come up with.

EK


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## sah (13/2/08)

RobboMC said:


> I don't boil my grain steepings. I'm up to brew number 7 with steeped grain and so far no infections, so I'm with What's Wrong with, look elsewhere for the infection.



Robbo, if you steep between 70 - 80C that temperature may be enough to kill the bacteria that will be living on the grain. However, boiling is a guarantee. Do you know what "house mouth" is?

JamesCraig, steeping cold is unconventional compared to something in the 65 to 75C range. The heat helps to dissolve the sugars. Also no one has reminded you that the grain needs to be milled (cracked) before steeping. I thought it might be worth while mentioning in case your LHBS also forgot about this.

Good luck.
Scott


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## Fatgodzilla (13/2/08)

SAH said:


> JamesCraig, steeping cold is unconventional compared to something in the 65 to 75C range. The heat helps to dissolve the sugars. Good luck.
> Scott



Scott you know more than most here so your imput greatly appreciated.


> steeping cold is unconventional


 Does that mean isn't effective ? Done a cold soak of crystal and ran "dirty" water off the grain expecting it has contained the sugars leeched by the soak. Did this water contain the sugars I wanted extracted or merely some other by product off the grains ?


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## Mothballs (13/2/08)

Hi EK, my name is Anthony and I manage the Brewers choice store at Jimboomba. I received a PM from another member notifying me of your problem this afternoon. 

Firstly let me apologise for the incorrect advice given to you personally and on our website regarding specialty grain steeping procedure. I tried to send you a PM this afternoon however an error message was returned saying your PM function was not enabled.

I am an all grain brewer and I understand how important it is give correct info on brewing procedures. Although this is sometimes the case of ask ten brewers a question and you will receive 20 different answers. I would certainly highly reccomend that the wort produced from steeping grains should be boiled prior to adding it to the fermenter. There should be no extraction of tannins to cause astringency when boiling the wort unless there are a grain husks present in the wort. While not boiling the wort will not necessarily guarantee an infection in a beer it is a possible risk and should be eliminated.

The website instructions and instore info sheets should all have been changed to include the boiling step some time ago. This obviously did not occur on the website and in some of the stores, and incorrect info has continued to be passed onto customers. I have contacted my boss (David Kitchen) the website will be changed ASAP and all stores have received the correct info sheet on steeping specialty grains. 

Brewing education of staff is an ongoing process and we have staff at different levels of brewing expertise so we will continue to work hard at it. Obviously we have dropped the ball here and if any brewers ever have any concerns we are always more than happy to receive any feed back on this. 

We will happily completely replace the two brews that caused you problems. I have been in contact with Mel who runs the Enoggera store and she is aware of the problem. Please pop in and see her and she will get you set up with 2 new brews. She is a fairly new beer brewer with a passion for making great beer.

If you have any questions on this or anything on brewing please send me a Pm or email or you can ring me at the Jimboomba store on 07 55486944. My email is [email protected]

Alternately you can contact David Kitchen on 07 32768500 or via email on [email protected] or [email protected]

Cheers
Anthony


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## Stuster (13/2/08)

Well, can't say fairer than that. Perfect response IMO, Mothballs. :super: 

If only more businesses were run like this.


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## EK (13/2/08)

Anthony (Mothballs),

Fair Enough, You can't ask for better service than that!

It's good to see that you have jumped on to this one and made a satisfying reply.

Just to clarify: It was not my intention to cause Brewers Choice any dramas, I just remembered (when making the reply) that the instructions were online.

Since I had these infected brews I have been happily purchasing from Mel at Enoggera and other advice that she has given me has helped improve my beer, after all is difficult to 'bring in' a sample to AHB.

It is certainly clear from talking to Mel that she is very passionate about her beer! (I'm not sure that it was Mel who I got the verbal advice I quoted in my first post on this thread). This is a refreshing change from the other HBS's on the north side. Though, I usually are at the other north side HBS's on weekends when the 'fill in' staff are on, usually these are the less knowledgeable brewers.

I will be in contact.

EK


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## tcraig20 (13/2/08)

SAH said:


> JamesCraig, steeping cold is unconventional compared to something in the 65 to 75C range. The heat helps to dissolve the sugars. Also no one has reminded you that the grain needs to be milled (cracked) before steeping. I thought it might be worth while mentioning in case your LHBS also forgot about this.
> 
> Good luck.
> Scott



Thanks for the advice Scott. At the moment I dont have a decent thermometer and Im working with an electric stove. If I get around to using crystal grains soon, Id rather see how cold steeping works out than try assing about getting temperatures right. But you are right, it would probably be a good idea to do things properly as a baseline before trying anything more unusual. 

Thanks again to everyone for your help.


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## Stuster (13/2/08)

JamesCraig, for steeping grains you don't need to be that exact about the temperature. I think Scott was just pointing out that the sugars might not dissolve as well into cold water as into warm. You don't have to use a thermometer to do this. Just heat the water up in a pan till it's too hot to hold your finger in for more than a few seconds.**


_** No liability will be assumed for this dangerous and frankly stupid advice. It will work. You may well get burned. At least you don't have to buy a thermometer.  _


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## sah (13/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Scott you know more than most here so your imput greatly appreciated. Does that mean isn't effective ? Done a cold soak of crystal and ran "dirty" water off the grain expecting it has contained the sugars leeched by the soak. Did this water contain the sugars I wanted extracted or merely some other by product off the grains ?



Hey FG, my understanding of brewing science has barely scratched the surface. There are plenty of people who contribute to this forum that really do understand a lot. Anyway, on to steeping ...

Uneffective? No. Inefficient? Probably.

By unconventional I mean that most advice in print or otherwise suggests steeping around 65 - 75C, and because of this advice I think that it's the most widely practiced method.

Why? It is accepted that 65 - 75C range is optimal for maximum extraction of sugars without extracting too many other compounds like tannins that may adversely affect the flavour of the beer. In general, as you decrease the steeping temperature your extraction will decrease and you will have to use more grain to achieve the same result.

However, this temperature range is not optimal for all types of grain. It is easier to extract harsh flavours from darker (roasted) grain and a lower steeping temperature helps to avoid this.

Temperature is not the only factor in this balancing act. The crush, both size and damage to husks, and pH are also variables that will affect extraction but in most cases to a lesser degree.

One of the tricks with getting your head around technical detail like this is to try and understand how significant or influential each factor is. And of course as with all science, if you want to, you can keep peeling back the layers and going deeper and deeper.

So all up in this instance it comes down to designing your recipe to include more specialty grain if you want to steep cold rather than if you were to steep hot.

I hope that isn't confusing or too much of a wank.

regards,
Scott

Ps. References include http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-2.html and digests like this one from the archives of HBD http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3537.html


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## 0M39A (14/2/08)

First of all, fantastic response there Mothballs, wonderful customer service. not very often you see home brew store owners "step down from their high horse" so to speak and admit they're wrong. heard so many horror stories in the past about them. big thumbs up to you.

As for cold steeping, i always thought it was better for black grains, as you can get an acrid taste from them from steeping in hot water. hot steeping is what i always use for normal grains, ie. crystal, carafa etc.


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## drsmurto (14/2/08)

JamesCraig said:


> Thanks for the advice Scott. At the moment I dont have a decent thermometer and Im working with an electric stove. If I get around to using crystal grains soon, Id rather see how cold steeping works out than try assing about getting temperatures right. But you are right, it would probably be a good idea to do things properly as a baseline before trying anything more unusual.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone for your help.




You dont need a thermometer for this mate, 2 parts boiling water, 1 part tap water is around 65-70 (depending on temp of tap water obviously) and is close enough for this. And when rinsing just add a tad more hot water. Its not exact science but for this i reckon its close enough.


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## RobboMC (19/2/08)

JamesCraig said:


> Thanks for the advice Scott. At the moment I dont have a decent thermometer and Im working with an electric stove. If I get around to using crystal grains soon, Id rather see how cold steeping works out than try assing about getting temperatures right. But you are right, it would probably be a good idea to do things properly as a baseline before trying anything more unusual.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone for your help.




Don't be frightened of warm steeping, I started late last year and was amazed how straightforward it is. To get 70 deg C just add
300 ml of tap water to 700 ml of boiling water ( assumed 20 and 95 deg C ) For a bigger volume just scale it up. Alternatively
if you are looking to make the best beer that you can ( which you must be if you're steeping grains and reading this forum ) then get out and buy a thermometer! It's useful for more than steeping, like measuring actual wort temp instead of the crazy strip things on the outside of a fermenter. Sanitation taken as given.

What's "house mouth"?


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## Stuster (19/2/08)

RobboMC, I take house mouth to mean the fact that brewers can get used to off flavours in their beer. Maybe a low level infection develops in their beer with only a small flavour impact. Without good sanitation (and sometimes with) that infection can get worse, but if it only develops slowly the brewer gets used to the taste. Or maybe they always have some issue with their beer that they're used to. When somebody else tries it though.....  

Always worth remembering when somebody says they don't do X in sanitation and they've never had an infection.


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## Trough Lolly (19/2/08)

Geoffi said:


> I've started using the 'German' method for decoction mashes. Specialty grains (esp dark grains) only go in at mash-out. It is supposed to prevent tannins and excessive burnt flavours.



G'day Geoffi - I'm curious...
The so-called "German method" implies that all mashes involve a decoction - do you only add specialty grains at mash-out to mashes that you are going to decoct, or are you doing late additions with every mash you add dark grains to, regardless of whether or not you do a decoction? FWIW, I don't agree with late grain additions to mashes, in much the same way that I don't agree with full volume boils under 60 minutes...

Cheers,
TL


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## Ross (19/2/08)

To be honest, having used both methods many times, I think the less astringent, smoother finish using cold steeping is a bit of a myth - I believe it's probably due to the cold steep extracting less & hence the less harshness percieved in the final beer. This has been bourne out from my experience with the cold steeped additions generally resulting in a little less colour - A sure sign (I'm persuming) that less fermentables have carried over. So I reckon the same result could probably be achieved by warm steeping a little less grain. 
I may well be wrong, just my observations...

Cheers Ross


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## Trough Lolly (19/2/08)

Ross said:


> To be honest, having used both methods many times, I think the less astringent, smoother finish using cold steeping is a bit of a myth - I believe it's probably due to the cold steep extracting less & hence the less harshness percieved in the final beer. This has been bourne out from my experience with the cold steeped additions generally resulting in a little less colour - A sure sign (I'm persuming) that less fermentables have carried over. So I reckon the same result could probably be achieved by warm steeping a little less grain.
> I may well be wrong, just my observations...
> 
> Cheers Ross



FWIW, I totally agree....I only start the steep cold to guarantee that I don't scorch, burn, or insult anything in the pot! I don't think that a cold steep is necessarily better (or washing with Cold Power for that matter, but I digress!). On the rare occasion that I steep, I start cold but always ensure that I eventually get to around 70C in the next 30-40 mins to ensure that I've steeped a good deal of the colour and flavour characteristics, less tannins, from the grains in question...then boil.

Cheers,
TL


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## tcraig20 (24/2/08)

OK guys, just had my first crack at using specialty grain.

Steeped 100g chocolate malt in 2 litres of water for 1/2 an hour then boiled for 20 minutes. Probably far too much water, but I thought more would help it maintain temperature in the pot (no insulation). 

Added it to one of the Muntons porter kits. Just waiting for the temp to drop so I can pitch the yeast now 

Thanks again everyone. Ill raise a glass to you all during one of our dark and cold nights when Im drinking this batch.


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