# Ag "old" Recipe?



## Uncle Fester (19/1/07)

Gentlemen,
Please un-ignorance me... Is there a difference between a porter and an old?

Father in law is a devotee of Tooheys Old/Carlton Black. I would like to make him an AG equivalent. Is and Old a porter? or is a porter a bit closer to a stout? (he doesnt mind stout, but cannot sit for a whole session on it).

Does anybody have a tried and true AG recip I could "borrow"?


Thanks in advance,


Fester.


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## kook (19/1/07)

To be honest, Toohey's Old doesn't bear much resemblance to english "old ale". In my experience these are typically blended beers, or brewed in very traditional manners that often lend sour, lactic flavours.

If someone wanted a Toohey's Old clone, I'd brew a fairly dry (mash temp) porter


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## PostModern (19/1/07)

Brew a dry porter with a lager yeast at ale temps and remember to vomit in the mash 

EDIT: seriously tho, brew a nice porter and he'll never look at Old in the same light again.


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## Uncle Fester (19/1/07)

Then a dry porter it is.


Thanks for the advice. Can I guess then that Porter is to PoMo as Batz is to wheat???


Fess.


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## randyrob (19/1/07)

Heya,

theres a thread here with some AG recipe's

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...ic=652&st=0

also explains why PM doesn't like tooheys old  

Rob.

p.s. good luck with it, dont forget to report back with your results!


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## Uncle Fester (19/1/07)

randyrob said:


> Heya,
> 
> theres a thread here with some AG recipe's
> 
> ...



Just for my info, what search criteria did you use for this result?

I tried tooheys +old +recipe amongst others and never hit this thread.


Festa.


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## randyrob (19/1/07)

Uncle Fester said:


> Just for my info, what search criteria did you use for this result?
> 
> I tried tooheys +old +recipe amongst others and never hit this thread.
> Festa.




Heya Uncle Fester,

i dont use the inbuilt search feature as it doesnt ever seem to pull up what i want
i use google!

for example if i type "tooheys old site:aussiehomebrewer.com"

into the search engine i get a multitude of results to do with tooheys old recipe's

try it for anything and you'll pull up heaps more results than using the inbuilt search engine,

Cheers Rob.


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## benno1973 (19/1/07)

That's the same method I use. Returns much better results than the site based search, and takes you directly to the post that deals with what you're looking for...


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## Ross (19/1/07)

Uncle Fester,

Make a schwarzbier with an ale yeast & you'll be home & dry...  

cheers Ross


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## Tony (20/1/07)

I drank tooheys old all the time befroe i started brewing.

I agree with ross. The schwarzbier is nore the road to follow. 

I have had a couple of goes at replicating it and have comp close......... only difference is mine is usually better  .......... anyone want to buy tickets  

here is what i recon comes close.

I use pilsner malt for the light sweet thinner feel that it has compared to mast ales. mash it cool at around 65 deg and use US-56 at about 19 degrees.

cheers

old

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 25.00 Wort Size (L): 25.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.00
Anticipated OG: 1.046 Plato: 11.40
Anticipated EBC: 41.0
Anticipated IBU: 22.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
90.0 4.50 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
5.0 0.25 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900
5.0 0.25 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
24.00 g. Pride of Ringwood (whole) Whole 9.60 22.3 45 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.10 Oz Irish Moss Fining 10 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP001 California Ale


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## The King of Spain (20/1/07)

> Make a schwarzbier with an ale yeast & you'll be home & dry...



You bet. Schwarzbier now on my "to brew often" list


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## Ross (20/1/07)

Here's my latest tweaked recipe...

Dark ale...

Type: All Grain
Date: 31/12/2006 
Batch Size: 28.00 L
Boil Size: 36.61 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.0

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.45 kg Munich Malt II (17.7 EBC) Grain 62.0 % 
1.30 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 23.4 % 
0.27 kg Caraaroma (256.1 EBC) Grain 4.9 % 
0.27 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 4.8 % 
0.27 kg Chocolate Pale Malt (600.0 EBC) Grain 4.8 % 
68.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.10%] (60 min) Hops 23.2 IBU 
39.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.10%] (20 min) Hops 8.1 IBU 
26.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.10%] (2 min) Hops 0.7 IBU 
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
0.50 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile

Mashed at 68c for a bit of extra body.
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.016 SG 
Alcohol by Vol: 4.7 % 
Bitterness: 32.0 IBU Calories: 493 cal/l 
Est Color: 58.3 EBC 


Cheers Ross


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/1/07)

I can say that Tonys Old recipie is *very* close to the real thing, and very simple to make...

I have made it myself

I remember tasting it at Tony's place with Ross and Pumpy, and Ross commented " Them POR hops are not that bad afterall.." :lol:


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## PostModern (20/1/07)

Uncle Fester said:


> Can I guess then that Porter is to PoMo as Batz is to wheat???



Not at all. I love porter. Used to think Toohey's Old was a good beer. In fact I was once quoted (a loooong time ago) as saying it is one of the world's great beers. LOL, I was so naive.  Every attempt I have made to clone it has turned out better than the original, from Morgans kits thru part mashes to AG porters.

I don't keep promash recipe reports, but my current porter recipe looks a lot like Tony's in the grain department. Base malt, lots of choc and a touch of crystal. I sometimes/usually drop back the crystal and base malt and put in a bit of munich, but otherwise a lot like that. I used to use roast malt, but lately aim to get lots of the colour from a 300g chocolate addition. The "dark ale" in my sig is one of those.


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## Barry (20/1/07)

Good day
You could make a munich dunkel with US56, I will try it some time in the future. Might hit the spot.


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## Coodgee (20/1/07)

US-56 makes a nice dry dark beer.


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## Tony (20/1/07)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I can say that Tonys Old recipie is *very* close to the real thing, and very simple to make...
> 
> I have made it myself
> 
> I remember tasting it at Tony's place with Ross and Pumpy, and Ross commented " Them POR hops are not that bad afterall.." :lol:




Yeah i thought back to that too  It was like.......... Hang on....... whats happening?

I would even say to up the crystal to 8% to ballance the chocolate and the dry yeast with a tad more sweetness. It all depends on what you want your end product to be like.

I will say that if you are trying to emulate comercial beer......... KEEP IT SIMPLE.

The brewery has a malt specially made to colour and flavour old that we cant buy. You dont think they go stuffing around with 6 different specialty malts do you.

base malt......... some dark malt to their specs...... sugar cause they are tight arses and to thin it for the pussys out there that like to claim they are going to the club for a couple of black ales  and one cheap hop addition!

I kind of feel that tooheys old has changed since i started drinking it 10 or 12 years ago. I remember it as a heavier malty beer with definate chocolate notes.

Now it just tastes like NEW with a bit of caramel colour in it to darken it.

Im not sure if this is because they have watered it down and brew it with a lager yeast now or if its my taste changing now that i brew AG beers that are better.

maybe its both.

cheers


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## randyrob (20/1/07)

Thanks for the recipe tony, i've added that to the list of things to do, i just put down one of your "nelson sauvin wheat ales" today from the recipe section.


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## The King of Spain (20/1/07)

> US-56 makes a nice dry dark beer.
> 
> 
> > So does Nottingham.


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## Tony (21/1/07)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I can say that Tonys Old recipie is *very* close to the real thing, and very simple to make...
> 
> I have made it myself
> 
> I remember tasting it at Tony's place with Ross and Pumpy, and Ross commented " Them POR hops are not that bad afterall.." :lol:




Just for the record.........

I dug back through my Promash recipe file backups and found the recipe i used to make the one you tried Stu.

cheers

old ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.55
Anticipated OG: 1.046 Plato: 11.45
Anticipated EBC: 45.7
Anticipated IBU: 21.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
65.9 3.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 5
22.0 1.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
6.6 0.30 kg. TF Pale Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 550
3.3 0.15 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 130
2.2 0.10 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 940

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Pride of Ringwood Whole 10.00 18.3 90 min.
10.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 4.50 3.4 20 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP004 Irish Stout




Edit:

I do recal it needed more crystal to ballance the chocolate malts.

I would up the crystal to 6 or 8%

cheers again


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## Uncle Fester (29/1/07)

kook said:


> To be honest, Toohey's Old doesn't bear much resemblance to english "old ale". In my experience these are typically blended beers, or brewed in very traditional manners that often lend sour, lactic flavours.
> 
> If someone wanted a Toohey's Old clone, I'd brew a fairly dry (mash temp) porter




Ok, I have gone with Ross's Schwarzbier recipe. I have down sized it to fit my setup, and have adjusted the hop schedule slightly to reflect what I have on hand. Recipe posted below for comment.

By fairly dry you mean a lower mash temp. What temp?

65, 63, 62 ???

As usual, many thanks to all.


Festa.


Schwarzbier 
Schwarzbier (Black Beer) 


Type: All Grain
Date: 25/01/2007 
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Brewer: Uncle Fester 
Boil Size: 25.18 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment 
Brewhouse Efficiency: Improving 


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 59.4 % 
1.00 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 19.8 % 
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.9 % 
0.20 kg Caraaroma (350.0 SRM) Grain 4.0 % 
0.20 kg Chocolate Malt (600.0 SRM) Grain 4.0 % 
0.15 kg Carafa I (850.0 SRM) Grain 3.0 % 
40.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.90%] (60 min) Hops 21.3 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.90%] (30 min) Hops 6.1 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.10%] (30 min) Hops 3.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.10%] (15 min) Hops 2.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.10%] (5 min) Hops 0.7 IBU 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 % 
Bitterness: 34.5 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 42.5 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 5.05 kg 
Sparge Water: 17.06 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 13.18 L of water at 70.1 C 64.0 C 60 min 



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time). 
Carbonation and Storage


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/1/07)

Fester


Personally I would drop the last 2 hop additions and do a 20 min add of Hersbrucker. And if you had it, put about 20-50gms of black malt in.

Black malt does wonders in dark beer if used correctly.  

And mash it under 65*c :super: 


Oh ..... and dont chill, add worflock or irishmoss, whirlpool,filter,strain,rack,cold condition,sanitise,use shiny brew gear or an hydrometer, gravel,bleach,idophore,hydrogen peroxide,napi-san, gypsum,kegs, bottles,water or yeast. 

It will turn out just fine... :lol:


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## Tony (30/1/07)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Fester
> Personally I would drop the last 2 hop additions and do a 20 min add of Hersbrucker. And if you had it, put about 20-50gms of black malt in.
> 
> Black malt does wonders in dark beer if used correctly.
> ...




What about the "pump" Stu?.................you forgot the pump !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go to your room............. NOOOOOOOOOW!

 

I recon the recipe looks tops. Give it a go and see.

With all those late hops you woint get a "tooheys old clone" but you will get something better.

If your making a schwarzbier, brew it with a nice lager yeast or us-56 if you have to.

mash it at 65 to 66, you want a bit of maltymess and body to ballance the roast aspect of the beer.

let us know how it goes

cheers


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## Uncle Fester (30/1/07)

Tony said:


> What about the "pump" Stu?.................you forgot the pump !!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Go to your room............. NOOOOOOOOOW!
> 
> ...



Ducatiboy and Tony,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not trying to clone a tooheys old. Just making that style of beer that the father in law likes.

Unfortunately, SWMBO has decreed that there are no more fridges coming into the house :angry: Hence I am at the mercy of the temperature gods until the delicious Canberra winter sets in again. I was thinking of either S04, US56 or Nottingham ale yeast.


Once I have risked divorce, acquired a fermenting fridge and pleaded for forgiveness, then I will be able to lager away at leisure.


Fester


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## Tony (30/1/07)

just buy her a better one for the kitchen................ and move the kitchen one into the garage.

Thats what i did.

works a treat!

cheers


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## randyrob (20/2/07)

Tony said:


> 5.0 0.25 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145



would it be ok to use this as a subsitute? 

"CRYSTAL GRAIN (AUSTRALIAN) 120 EBC"

Cheers Rob.


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## Tony (21/2/07)

yeah it will do.

the pomsmake the best crystal malt in the world though.

cheers


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## randyrob (21/2/07)

Tony said:


> yeah it will do.
> 
> the pomsmake the best crystal malt in the world though.
> 
> cheers



hmm... i've got a kg i've been waiting to use.

also will the JWM Choclolate do?

Rob.


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