# What Is The Next Step Up From K&k?



## mick8882003 (18/11/08)

Ok, I have been k&k'ing for some time now and am wondering how to improve my results?

My initial thought is to use either powdered malt and hops. This would seem to be the next step up to me.

I really don't want to get into all grain due to the mess involved.

So is there a middle ground?

Cheers :icon_chickcheers: Mick C

Oh yes and if stuffa reads this sorry about the wyeast yeast, I honestly didn't get time to send it, just started a new job and its been madness.


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## Wardhog (18/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Ok, I have been k&k'ing for some time now and am wondering how to improve my results?
> 
> My initial thought is to use either powdered malt and hops. This would seem to be the next step up to me.



Yep. Unhopped extract + hops. Powdered or liquid malt extract, both work.


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## mick8882003 (18/11/08)

Wardhog said:


> Yep. Unhopped extract + hops. Powdered or liquid malt extract, both work.



Will I notice a big difference?

Edit: more to the point, is it worth it?


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## Pollux (18/11/08)

I have recently moved from K+K to kit and bit (some LDME and hops)....

Those beers tasted better from the fermenter than my K+Ks did from the bottle.....

As for if it's worth it.....All depends, do you want cheap or tasty? Remember, it's still cheaper than buying megaswill.


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## matt white (18/11/08)

Try unhopped extract plus hop pellets as per recipes in this forum. Also make sure a home brew shop yeast such as US-05 is used (and better still recultured for a few brews).


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## buttersd70 (18/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Will I notice a big difference?
> 
> Edit: more to the point, is it worth it?



oooooooohhhhhhhhhh, yeah, baby. Definately. 110%.


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## Tao (18/11/08)

Steeping specialty grain is fantastic as well. Have a look in Palmers How to Brew, get a grain sock/hop sock and steep grain. Personally I didnt like the dried malt extract, I found it way to much work to stir in. I much preferred unhopped liquid malt extract that I then hopped and added some specialty grain to (Try the Porter in Palmers book).


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## Timmsy (18/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Ok, I have been k&k'ing for some time now and am wondering how to improve my results?
> 
> My initial thought is to use either powdered malt and hops. This would seem to be the next step up to me.
> 
> ...




Mate do it. Extract is the way better the K&K and you will enjoy the process and the start using specialty grains. Every bit of effot will result is great tasting beer that you will fights your mates to keep away


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## matho (18/11/08)

you could try steeping some grains my lhbs sells infusion packs for $4.50
they are about 220g of caramalts and 13g of hop pellets
its just like making a cup of tea, you put the contents of the pack into about 2l of water a 70 deg and leave it there for about 30min 
and then you strain the liquid into the fermenter add the can of goo and the dme. It adds more mouth feel i think. i used them for a while then moved to partials then to ag.
if your lhbs dosn't make them then pat at Absolutehomebrew sells them online (no affliation.)

cheer's matho


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## PostModern (18/11/08)

Don't f&^k around. Get into AG. Sometimes baby steps can be a waste of time. Do it. You know you want to


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## Thirsty Boy (18/11/08)

I'll twist it a little from your original question - I wrote a bit of a guide for my brother in law's Dad - a long time K&Ker who was making drinkable, but flawed beers.

I'll attach that guide here for you to have a look at. It is not I'm afraid a document about a "next step" such as added hops, grains, or malt extract, its about tips, tricks and techniques for getting better results out of the straight K&K that you are currently doing.

If you aren't already doing most of what I describe in the document, or at least some pretty similar things - then its my opinion that you have yet to pick the lowest hanging fruit on the tree of brewing improvement - try them out, then worry about the "next step"

Of course you may be doing all that already and you would prefer I just answer the question you actually asked - if so, sorry. You will get plenty of those answers, I thought I would give you a different angle thats all.

Hope this helps a little

Thirsty

View attachment Kit_Beers___Beyond_the_Instructions.doc


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## Brewtus (18/11/08)

I moved to Kits and Bits i.e. better yeast, liquid malt extract instead of sugar/BE, extra hops. much better. I am now starting to do mini mash i.e half grain/half extract. Trust me it is much more fun and tasted better by far.


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## Jase71 (18/11/08)

Thirsty Boy, i like the recipe for home made no-rinse. Cheers.


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## muckey (18/11/08)

It's up to you to decide the next step and it really depends on taste.

I thought I liked malt so substituted dex for LDME. Turns out I'm a bit of a hop head so experimented with dry hopping (I always started with a hopped extract) and even tried a couple of different yeasts

seems now I want to improve even further and jumped over grain steeps and full extract brewing, even jumped partial mashing straight to AG..

So there you have it. it depends on what you are after.
have a good read of thirsty boys guide as well. There's some important yet simple tips in there that will help as well.

If you give the group some idea of what you are looking for in your beer then we may be able to provide more than just suggestions

Cheers


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## dr K (18/11/08)

Thirsty Boy..great concept and great doco.
You make a very important point, get your basics before you step up, if you are using old extract or poorly treated yeast then no matter what you do to tweak the beer you are still fighting with a bad base.
Yes, home brewing has come a long way in the last 15 years, but 15 years ago everything you say was just as do-able, just no-one told me to do it !!


K


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## frogman (18/11/08)

KEGS.


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## muckey (18/11/08)

frogman said:


> KEGS.



OHHHH YEAH!!!! :super:


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## rich_lamb (18/11/08)

If you're actually using sugar with your kits then replacing with extract will definitely be an improvement (I only ever made one kit with sugar and it was so awful I tipped it).
But otherwise going from kit to extract isn't much of a change at all.

Playing around with steeping some crystal malt and boiling some hops will be a nice and easy introduction to actually "cooking" a beer and you will be irrevocably on the dark and slippery path - you probably already are. And you can stink up the kitchen with nice beery smells, yeah!

Dunno if you'd get a quantum leap from using liquid yeast over dried per se - as long as you are good to your yeast in either case you should get good beer.


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## roger mellie (18/11/08)

Like Post Modern Said - forget about the halfway houses.





Come to the Dark Side

Nothing Else compares

RM


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## Wardhog (18/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Will I notice a big difference?
> 
> Edit: more to the point, is it worth it?



Yes and most emphatically yes. It is surprisingly easy to do, and will open up whole new levels of awesome to your brewing.


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## Back Yard Brewer (18/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Don't f&^k around. Get into AG. Sometimes baby steps can be a waste of time. Do it. You know you want to




Yep true. I went from Kits and then head first into AG. Side stepped partials. Mind you I have had tried some partials which arent to half bad. But I am glad I went head first to AG. Had a couple disasters because of bad yeast practice (my fault)

BYB


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## PostModern (18/11/08)

Wardhog said:


> Yes and most emphatically yes. It is surprisingly easy to do, and will open up whole new levels of awesome to your brewing.



But nothing, NOTHING like the awesome of AG. The first full boil extract and hops beer I made to test out the new burner and kettle while my mash tun was still under construction was the best beer I'd made to date. The very first AG I made just a few days later was 100x better. I spent a lot of time, a number of years in fact, fiddling with pots and teensy weensy mash tuns in the kitchen trying to make great partial mash beers, and to this day, I regret every brew that wasn't AG. Sure you learn a bit about hopping and so on, but with the element of control taken away by the source and nature of the extract, you never get the same result.

Save your pennies, perfect your fermentation with kits and fresh wort packs, and get a full scale AG brewery. You won't regret it if you are in any way serious about making great beer.

EDIT: BYB agrees!


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## Adamt (18/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Save your pennies, perfect your fermentation with kits and fresh wort packs, and get a full scale AG brewery. You won't regret it *if you are in any way serious about making great beer.*



This is the key decision maker.

By saying you can't be bothered with the "mess" associated with mash brewing, it sounds like you're either not in it for the craft side of things or have just never had a proper beer before.

If brewing to you is about making something palatable for you to swill, you're better off saving your money and brewing with better kits/extracts (nothing wrong with that I guess...). However if you're looking to make a top quality product, you MUST start mashing; build a full mash brewery and don't look back.

I'm another kits -> full mash brewer. The thought of drinking kit beer on a regular basis makes me dry reach.


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## Weizguy (18/11/08)

Fresh wort Kit, b4 you jump to ag.
It is truly written that Fresh Wort Kits are the gateway drug to the all-grain subculture.
FWIW.
Les


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## albrews (19/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Ok, I have been k&k'ing for some time now and am wondering how to improve my results?
> 
> My initial thought is to use either powdered malt and hops. This would seem to be the next step up to me.
> 
> ...






hi, k&k minimashed with a kilo of grain to improve foam of the beer.

cheers
alan


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## matti (19/11/08)

If you want to make nice beer add only malts.
ESB 3 kgs Kits from ESB sponsor.
Look in Grain grape recipesHere 
And keep moving up the ladder


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

There appears to be a schism on this forum between AG'ers and kit/extract methodology, driven almost exclusivly by the former crowd and at times being expressed by fantasical statements. But let's not forget that if one does even a simple kit, perhaps with the addition of a good malt and ideal conditions, that many people _are_ producing the best beer they have ever tasted..

I for one have tried perhaps a hundred commercial beers (I seriously don't know, but this figure wouldn't be far off), and perhaps forty pub-based microbrewery beers (from about 10 places), all of which would be no doubt using AG, which is a given in the context of large production. And I have to say that while there have been some gems, there's also been a lot of crap. Now these are from brewhouses that make a living, albeit sometimes meagre, from 'the craft', so we might consider their prosesses to be well-worn & tested. 

On the other hand I have tasted many 'kits & bits' beers, mostly from one person who doesn't spend a lot of time or money (per brew) on the craft, but produced some outstanding results across a wide range of styles nonetheless. If I was taking notes and analysing the results over time, I would lean to a higher % success rate of producing beers that are mighty fine. To clarify my tastes, I'm not coming from the megaswill camp, therefore not speaking of beers that are produced that simly clone crap commercials, for I swore off the common, local commercial rubbish many years ago (Ok, not rigidly sworn off, there are occasions when I have no choice in the matter, but on these occasions it borders on tolerable when it's the only 'port in a storm'). 

There's also many members here who I'm sure produce outstanding kit or extract beers that are the best beer _they_ have ever tasted. So what's the implication of these AG'ers statements - is it that my tastes are simply not as developed or pronounced? It's certainly not that I haven't tried a lot of what is ultimatly all-grain beer (see paragraph 2). 

It can't be denied that the satisfaction level of DIY is a wonderful thing, and something that I myself would go for if money and residential circumstances were in favour of it. But to suggest that a hundred dollar outlay vs a $1k (and that's being modest) opens one to realms unimaginable is a bit much, and I wonder of the beer can be expressed as 10 times better?


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## Goofinder (19/11/08)

Good points Jase. I still reckon you can produce some pretty good beer from kits and bits, although I probably won't brew another one myself. 

Expecting everyone to go straight into AG brewing is a bit much. Sure, once you've done it AG doesn't seem that hard, but there's a serious investment in time to read up on everything and gear before you can get to that point.

I say have a good read of Thirsty Boy's doco as that is a great list of simpler things you can do to start making better beer. Once you've got them all sorted, _then_ move into AG. You'll produce better AG beer that way.


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## Gavo (19/11/08)

For me the next step up from K&K is to, has been go into extract brewing, be that liquid malt or dry malt for other brewers, I have only used dry extract. I have done some kits and bits basically to use up old stock and in comparison to un-hopped extract I would choose un-hopped extract every time.
My reasons for this are that extract can work out a little cheaper than highly tweaking kits, depending on how you tweak kits and what you pay for ingredients. The flavor of all extract brewing adding specialty grain and hops is far better than tweaking kits. All extract brewing does not require the scale of equipment that AG does, I am using a 12 litre for boiling and a 7 litre stockpot for steeping grains and a two dollar strainer. Sixty minute boils can be done on the kitchen stove-top.
I will probably...most likely... inevitably... well you get the idea, go into AG. In the meantime though I will keep on doing extracts and partials until I get enough equipment and experience together to do AG.

By the way is it worth the extra effort to leave kits behind? YES and you won't go back.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Wardhog (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> But to suggest that a hundred dollar outlay vs a $1k (and that's being modest) opens one to realms unimaginable is a bit much, and I wonder of the beer can be expressed as 10 times better?



Have you tasted a fresh well made all-grain beer? If not, find an AGer near you, get pally and do so.

I spent a while at extract + extras level, and was pretty impressed with the beers I was turning out. When I made my first AG, it was a whole new level that I never knew existed (I think I got lucky with it). It made me not want to ever use extract again, it was that much better.

My AG beers are on the continual improve, and will be forever. But, having a family, mortgage and other things to do in life, I don't always have the time for an AG brewday - which is why I'm also revisiting the cans of extract, specialty grain and hops. And I'm really pleased I have.

In my beer fridge right now, the AG best bitter, lager and oktoberfest bottles stand neglected while I bash my way through a red ale made from extract + extras with a contented smile on my face.

To sum up : You can make a brilliant beer with extract, though GOOD all grain beer is untouchable by extract, in my opinion. But AG is for later down the track, after learning curves have been conquered and obsession firmly in place.

Mick C was asking if it is worth it to learn more, to become more advanced. I don't think it's in dispute that it is, but please don't read the answer as "Yes, but it'll still be crap. AG is the only way of making good beer." AG may be the _best_ way, but it's not the only way.


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## PostModern (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> <snip>



I've tasted many commercial beers too. And I've judged in club, state and national homebrew comps. Now there is nothing wrong with kit beer per se. Hell, the nationals were won a couple years ago by a kit beer. In my experience, tho, I have found it is actually harder to make a good beer with a kit than AG. Much harder. You start with something that a kit manufacturer has made, coloured and bittered to a particular point. The skill of the brewer is to turn this into the beer s/he wants. When brewing AG, you choose everything, control everything, so it is much much easier to hit your targets as there are no constraints placed on you.

I hate to show ingredient snobbery, but extract is OF malt, it is not malt. Have you every had instant coffee right next to fresh brewed espresso? Or orange juice made from concentrate right next to juice squeezed straight out of an orange? Yes, I know those comparisons are cliche, but they're bang on the head correct.


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## Stuster (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> But to suggest that a hundred dollar outlay vs a $1k (and that's being modest)



Basically, I agree with you that kits and bits beers can be good. My experience was that I was very happy to make those beers and thought they were great when I started. When I went to AG, I thought MY beers got better. So it did make a difference TO ME and I'm happy I do, partly because as a craft it really feels that they're all your beer and as PoMo said, you do it all yourself (though really the maltster should get credit too).

I wanted just to pick you up on this point though. There's no need to spend that much for a simple system. I think it definitely cost me less than $400 to go AG. 36L esky ($35), burner and HP reg ($100), 50L kettle ($100), plumbing fittings for kettle and esky, braid etc ($100 or so), gas bottle ($40). And that's really all I've got now. Sure, it's not a bling system but it's absolutely fine and does the job. Actually, I started with less than that (just the esky and fittings for that) and boiled it on the stove in a cheap 20L kettle for the first couple of AGs until I was sure I was happy to spend the rest. Just wanted to point out it's not that pricey (unless you want it to be).


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## raven19 (19/11/08)

IMO the next step is dependant on the size of the step you want to take... :icon_cheers: 

Personally I did plenty of partials, KnB's, etc for years until my eyes were opened to AG brewing.

A little bit of mess is so much worth it when the result is great AG beer.


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## geoffd (19/11/08)

I agree with the general consensus of going straight to all grain, I made my first 11 beers from liquid extract, hopped it myself and used saf yeasts, and it all tasted very ordinary at best. My worst all grain was better than my best extract attempt, yes i know my technique has improved, but if i brewed an extract today i know it wouldnt be a patch on all grain.
Important to note, extract brewing is the most expensive type of brewing - $40-50 for a 25 litre batch, all grain is easily half the price or less, so outlay on equipment is soon recouped.
I brewed about 325 litres of beer last year for $280 (ingredients only) add bottlecaps & cleaner etc.
The equivelent in extract brewing would cost $600+ & in the bottleshop even at $14 a 6 pack would be well over $2K.
If you're not ready for all grain, some of the brewshops sell uncondensed pre hopped wort, comes in 18 litres, can be thinned to 23 & can be modified. General prices are $40-50 including the yeast. If i couldnt / didnt want to mash, this would be the next best thing.
Welcome to the slippery slope of always wanting to bring your beer to a new level, as soon an you improve your malt, you'll change focus to the hops, yeast or water. Before you know it you'll have a mini industrial brewery in your house...which can only be a good thing :chug:


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## drsmurto (19/11/08)

Time for my dolmio example Jase.

Spag bol made by dumping jar of dolmio in with mince = kits 

Spag bol made from fresh tomatoes, fresh herbs etc, simmered for hours = AG

Is one 100x better than the other.

Damn straight.

Sounds like you need to meet and greet an AG brewer on a brewday and sample some of his/her wares.

Like a few others i jumped straight from kits to AG. I met a few AG brewers and was lucky to be invited to watch an AG being brewed - DrGonzo. Tasted his beer, saw the process and how simple it was compared to what i had pictured and i was lost to the dark side.

You can make decent kit beers. Ditch the kit yeast, ditch the sugar and maltodextrin, ditch the stale teabags of hops, control your ferment temp (as appropriate to yeast and style) and add some crystal for colour/flavour and you are on your way. The only problem is once you smell the crystal malt steeping you are already moving to the dark side without even knowing it......


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## robbo5253 (19/11/08)

My next step after K & K was Masterbrews by Grumpys (now Stillbrewing) and these were a great step.

Simple to do with one pot and a strainer and helped me produce much better beers!!

The advice from Brad & Phil is also priceless.

No affiliation etc

Cheers and Better Beers

Robbo


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## Fermented (19/11/08)

The AG guys are right. The comparisons made between instant coffee (it's not coffee, it's bathwater) and espresso properly made from fine beans (stuff to make the heart and mind _sing_) is spot on. 

Fresh wort? Tastes rather good, but costly in my opinion, and somehow the lack of hands-on makes it feel like a hollow victory. I like to do stuff. 

Partials? Yes, a baby step, but a confidence builder. 

Heck, even going all malt and doing your own hopping is a vast increase in quality over the kits.

Good grief - even hopping kits for a tweak is a good start. 

If you're fully gung-ho and committed to the hobby then going AG and doing it right on day one and you have the space and the resources, then go for it. I'm certain you would not regret it. 

However, if you're like me and need to build confidence and get your head around each part then the baby steps, while consuming more $$$ than making the jump to AG, should be reasonably pleasing. 

As with anything in brewing (or any of the food and beverage crafts), ask ten people, get fifteen answers. 

Good luck with your choice. Love to hear where the journey takes you.

Cheers - Fermented.


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## Adamt (19/11/08)

To be brutally honest, K&K/Extract is just not brewing. You aren't brewing anything. You're (maybe boiling and) fermenting.

Mashing is brewing.


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## Fermented (19/11/08)

Hmmm - you're right Adam... Let's just call it "making beer". 

Cheers - Fermented.


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## robbo5253 (19/11/08)

Adamt said:


> To be brutally honest, K&K/Extract is just not brewing. You aren't brewing anything. You're (maybe boiling and) fermenting.
> 
> Mashing is brewing.



Does that make this forum only for Ag Brewers then as us Kits and Bits people do not fall under the "Aussie Home Brewer" Title?

A bit harsh I think!

Cheers and Beers


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

Obviously one of the exclusive mentalities here. In the english language, brewing is the process of making alcohol through fermentation.....


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## PostModern (19/11/08)

Adamt said:


> To be brutally honest, K&K/Extract is just not brewing. You aren't brewing anything. You're (maybe boiling and) fermenting.
> 
> Mashing is brewing.



Let's not open that can of worms (yet) again!


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## PostModern (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Obviously one of the exclusive mentalities here. In the english language, brewing is the process of making alcohol through fermentation.....



Not really. You don't "brew" wine.

From dictionary.reference.com

# To make (ale or beer) from malt and hops by *infusion, *boiling, and fermentation.

EDIT: Damn, cut myself on the can's lid again.


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## brendo (19/11/08)

I think that anyone who is 'brewing' - regardless if approach - K&K, K&B, Extract, Partial or AG is doing a really good thing - exploring their interest in beer and actually getting their hands dirty in the process (albeit maybe only scratching the surface).

This can only be a good thing - and will surely only enhance ones appreciation of beer and different styles.

I think it is extremely narrowminded to suggest that AG is the only true form of brewing - seems a tad elitist to me. We all have to start somewhere.

I have progressed from k&k to k&b to now extract based brews. I have been pleased with the advances I have been able to make with each of these steps and am now looking to make the move in the next six months to AG.

I think that anything that stimulates one's interest in the hobby is worthwhile, and if that means taking baby-steps, so be it.

I find it disappointing that some here believe that these intermediatary steps are a waste of time... are they absolutely necessary, perhaps not, but I don't think that invalidates the experience one can gain by taking them.

Just my 2c... for what it is worth... which is possibly not a great deal...

brendo


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## PostModern (19/11/08)

brendo said:


> I think it is extremely narrowminded to suggest that AG is the only true form of brewing - seems a tad elitist to me. We all have to start somewhere.



I don't think that way at all. If I've portrayed that impression, I've expressed myself poorly.

OP just seemed to think there were steps involved in going from kits to AG. In the topic title "next step" implies that there will be more. I'm just suggesting that if he's serious, he'll end up at AG eventually, and speaking purely from my own perspective, he may as well take a BIG step over the intermediate methods. Lack of support is not a problem.


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## Fermented (19/11/08)

[smiling]

Who cares what it's called?

We're all having fun and learning something and making a product which we enjoy and seek to improve.

Doubtless, the journey will be different for some of us.

Drink up! 

Cheers - Fermented.


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## brendo (19/11/08)

PostModern said:


> I don't think that way at all. If I've portrayed that impression, I've expressed myself poorly.
> 
> OP just seemed to think there were steps involved in going from kits to AG. In the topic title "next step" implies that there will be more. I'm just suggesting that if he's serious, he'll end up at AG eventually, and speaking purely from my own perspective, he may as well take a BIG step over the intermediate methods. Lack of support is not a problem.



Hey Postmodern,

I wasn't singling anyone out in particular - and certainly not yourself. I agree that going from kits to AG can certainly be done - this site and topic has numerous examples of people who have done just that.

i think it just comes back to your comfort level and I don't think that the benefits of moving straight to AG necessarily invalidates an alternative path to possibly the same destination.

And i would certainly not complain about a lack of support - this site and it's members are an absolute wealth of information and one that I have certainly benefited from trawling through. A big general thankyou to anyone who has helped me along the way - particularly with some of my earleir and more obvious inqueries.

The biggest thing for me is that I have *fun* brewing, my wife helps me out and enjoys the process and the end result is that I have managed to produce a bunch of beers that I am pretty damn happy with. I have enjoyed the journey so far and am looking to even better results as I get more experienced and refine my techniques even further.

Brendo


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## stm (19/11/08)

gavo said:


> For me the next step up from K&K is to, has been go into extract brewing, be that liquid malt or dry malt for other brewers, I have only used dry extract. I have done some kits and bits basically to use up old stock and in comparison to un-hopped extract I would choose un-hopped extract every time.
> My reasons for this are that extract can work out a little cheaper than highly tweaking kits, depending on how you tweak kits and what you pay for ingredients. The flavor of all extract brewing adding specialty grain and hops is far better than tweaking kits. All extract brewing does not require the scale of equipment that AG does, I am using a 12 litre for boiling and a 7 litre stockpot for steeping grains and a two dollar strainer. Sixty minute boils can be done on the kitchen stove-top.
> I will probably...most likely... inevitably... well you get the idea, go into AG. In the meantime though I will keep on doing extracts and partials until I get enough equipment and experience together to do AG.
> 
> ...



Yes, what Gavo (and Brendo) said. Although I only use one 8L pot (with a home made grain bag for the spec grains). More than happy with extract + extras brewing. Minimal cost, space and equipment requirements, and it is possible to make a great variety of great beers. And don't those AGers get over-excited?!


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## Mantis (19/11/08)

Father Jack said:


> I agree with the general consensus of going straight to all grain, I made my first 11 beers from liquid extract, hopped it myself and used saf yeasts, and it all tasted very ordinary at best. My worst all grain was better than my best extract attempt, yes i know my technique has improved, but if i brewed an extract today i know it wouldnt be a patch on all grain.
> Important to note, extract brewing is the most expensive type of brewing - $40-50 for a 25 litre batch, all grain is easily half the price or less, so outlay on equipment is soon recouped.
> I brewed about 325 litres of beer last year for $280 (ingredients only) add bottlecaps & cleaner etc.
> The equivelent in extract brewing would cost $600+ & in the bottleshop even at $14 a 6 pack would be well over $2K.
> ...




$40-50 for 25lt, woa back there. I am doing 25lt batches of extract for much less
3tins Coopers LME $24
300g Crystal $3
65g Hops $5
US-05 $2

$34 for 25lt of full strength brew


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

Brendo & stm, please refrain from using the term 'brewing'. Apparantly that's not what you're doing at all. I also had another brewday sccribbled into my diary for the weekend, I'm going to need to change that to 'cordial preparation with malt, grains & hops with aim to ferment beverage that may or may not even really be beer'


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## petesbrew (19/11/08)

I think you've made the next step, by joining this site.
However you want to brew, and how quickly you want to progress, there's heaps of helpful guys here to point you in the right direction.
Definitely meet up with some brewers in your area and try their beers. It's great fun and a huge eye opener.

I had a look over my old recipes on the weekend, and had a bit of a laugh at what i concocted. The things I threw cascade in... man it's no wonder I hated that hop for a bit!

Good luck.


----------



## Mantis (19/11/08)

I like my extract brews and so does my wife . So take that you AG dudes :beerbang:


----------



## Mantis (19/11/08)

But I do intend to do an all grain BIAB soon


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## Katherine (19/11/08)

> I had a look over my old recipes on the weekend, and had a bit of a laugh at what i concocted. The things I threw cascade in... man it's no wonder I hated that hop for a bit!



We still have our old k&k and extract recipe book its a great keepsake and laugh! 

We are doing the same for all grain!


----------



## PostModern (19/11/08)

You extract guys are funny. Sure making/brewing (the terms in common usage don't necessarily reflect the dictionary definitions ) a beer with extract is beer. The infusion part has just been done for you by Coopers or Bintani or whoever. When you (well, AG brewers) run the wort out of the mash tun, the product is sweet wort, also referred to as extract. You guys just save the hassle and "mess" of the process, which is good, but the cost to you is lack of control of the extract. This is all I was trying to get across.


----------



## drsmurto (19/11/08)

Jase

Still stand by my comment that you should catch up with an AG on a brewday to see the process, see how simple the equipment can be, and to taste an AG beer. 

Good AG beer is better than kit beer for the same reason that real spag bol is better than dolmio, and real coffee is better than instant. 

Thats not an elitist opinion, that simple logic. Fresh ingredients = better final product. Extract is a processed ingredient no matter how fresh it is.

FWIW - i still think using a kit is brewing, just a more simplified version.

Cheers
DrSmurto

EDIT- and +1 what Pomo said.


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## brendo (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Brendo & stm, please refrain from using the term 'brewing'. Apparantly that's not what you're doing at all. I also had another brewday sccribbled into my diary for the weekend, I'm going to need to change that to 'cordial preparation with malt, grains & hops with aim to ferment beverage that may or may not even really be beer'



LOL... not sure how the Minister of Finance would feel about the 46 lts of cordial I have fermenting in the back room... :beerbang: 

incidentally... is that how Corona is created - it says beer cordial on the back of the bottle...

Brendo


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## brendo (19/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Still stand by my comment that you should catch up with an AG on a brewday to see the process, see how simple the equipment can be, and to taste an AG beer.



I myself am planning on heading down to my local brew club for the first time next week to further my education and also plan on taking up one of the member's offers to observe one of their AG brew sessions in the near future... all part of the demystification process for me :icon_cheers:


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## Katherine (19/11/08)

> just save the hassle and "mess" of the process, which is good, but the cost to you is lack of control of the extract. This is all I was trying to get across.



I love the MESS!.... I nearly have my back garden bed at back full of grain mulch!


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## Mantis (19/11/08)

Katie said:


> I love the MESS!.... I nearly have my back garden bed at back full of grain mulch!



Sounds good. I reckon if I do go AG and use say 4-5kg grain a week then I wouldnt have to buy any more chook pellots :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## muckey (19/11/08)

I agree with Dr Smurto. go and catch a brewday - its a life changing experience.

I dont disagree with comments advocating stepping straight to all grain but it really is going to depend on the individual.

even using canned extracts, there is a lot that can be learned along the way about hops, malt and specialty grains and yeasts as well
for those who have never brewed errrm mixed adjuncts and ingredients to make a beer like liquid  slow steps can be a good way to build up confidence. 

I have to say though, now I've started AG there is no going back


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## jonocarroll (19/11/08)

> What Is The Next Step Up From K&k?



It's only recently that I asked myself this question. I had done a whole bunch of K&K with really good results (the AG purists will challenge 'good' here - product that I was VERY happy to drink, and proud of) and this year decided to get a little more complicated and experiment, so I went to partials. Very little extra equipment (if any) but a good insight into grains/hops/yeasts/boils/chills/etc... 

Lots of reading up, talking to people who know more than me, websites, etc. My partials were a definite improvement on the K&K and I learned a lot. I have a few mates who do AG, and I went along to see how much harder THAT next step is, and got hooked, so now I'm working on my own setup. That's not to say I won't do another K&K or partial (my 'Meggs' Ginger Beer is probably more suited to that) - but it's all about the process.

IMHO I would recommend having a go at partials and going along to some AG days (you can really learn a lot at these that will apply). Ignore anyone who says you have to dive right in, and anyone who says it's impossible to dive right in. Go at the pace that suits you and if you feel like getting a more complicated setup then go for it.

A photographer can know all the theory involved and still take crap photos. Or they can have the world's greatest camera and still take crap photos. They can have a very simple point-and-shoot and take a great shot. It's a mixture that makes things work, but most of all - you have to enjoy what you're doing.

Good luck, enjoy, and of course "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" :beer: (can I get sued for saying that?)


----------



## antains (19/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Ok, I have been k&k'ing for some time now and am wondering how to improve my results?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



To be ON TOPIC, I'm with you MickC. I'm done with the plain old extracts. I'm planning on doing some small experiments to see what the effects are of different ingredients. They are *baby steps, *but I see them as crucial to understanding what I'm doing to the process. I'm going to do this by halving brews down to 11 or so litres per wort, so I'm not generating a whole lot of waste.

At the same, Brendo has just supplied me with a couple of recipes that require a major shift in production for me. Rather than be daunted by cracking grains and pinching our bloody big saucepan for a few hours, I'm going to give it a go.

So, I'm kind of heeding PostModern's suggestion at the same time as ignoring it: baby steps and leaps and bounds, but at the same time. It should hopefully abate my impatience and stimulate my curiousity.

Back to the OFF-TOPIC matter of K&K versus AG: I think you should all STFU, HTFU and have a beer.

We're all here, on this forum, because we're working towards making something we love. Yes, we have different processes. Arguably, one will lead to the other, *if* an individual chooses to do so. For some, that's just not going to be feasible, whether it's down to practicalities or finances.

If hairs are going to be split and boundaries defined, then set up an AG forum or, since the definition seems to be prohibitive of K&K, kick out all the K&K sections.

Seriously, a lot of good points have been made to support each side, but factions are for simpletons and simpletons drink mega-swill.

I'd like to head down the path of AG, but I want to understand more about what I am capable of before I get to that crossroad. I hope, if I'm ever an AGer, that I understand why some folks are on kits and support them regardless.

Incidentally, this topic has helped me decide where I'm going for my lunch break: *The pub!

And if anyone has taken an issue with what I've written, then I apologise for not expressing myself clearly, because I'm basically saying THUMBS UP, but get over it.
*


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Still stand by my comment that you should catch up with an AG on a brewday to see the process, see how simple the equipment can be, and to taste an AG beer.



I couldn't agree more ! Anyone in Sydney need an apprentice for the day, please PM me. I promise I won't bring any of my terrible, awful non-brewed beers over.....

Hmm, how is the human process of open dialogue off topic ? It's an unfolding discussion. Human evolution's a great thing, and there's nary a need to set boundaries and stunt the growth of a seed that is an idea. 

Now THAT was off-topic !


----------



## antains (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Hmm, how is the human process of open dialogue off topic ? It's an unfolding discussion. Human evolution's a great thing, and there's nary a need to set boundaries and stunt the growth of a seed that is an idea.
> 
> Now THAT was off-topic !



:icon_offtopic: 
Alright, fair point.

The human process I enjoy out of these types of discussions is learning about the people one may never actually meet by observing what baits them and what eggs them on.

Dialogue and discussion do have their natural courses to run. I don't disagree.

I just wanted to make a distinction between two thoughts I wanted to contribute to this thread, because there were two topics being addressed.

Anyway, maybe I just wanted to demonstrate I might be able to contribute more than bad jokes.


----------



## stm (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Brendo & stm, please refrain from using the term 'brewing'. Apparantly that's not what you're doing at all. I also had another brewday sccribbled into my diary for the weekend, I'm going to need to change that to 'cordial preparation with malt, grains & hops with aim to ferment beverage that may or may not even really be beer'



Duly noted! :lol:


----------



## Bizier (19/11/08)

I thought I was going to go BIAB AG, but out of my control, I had to move house. Now I am in an apartment with no balcony. I have chosen the partial approach, because I can't deal with the volume of grain waste and general mess, or even sheer size of equipment. So I am resigned to at least a year of partial mash brewing.

You can make good (read MUCH BETTER than kit) beer with extract, plus you learn what the different ingredients add.


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## Bribie G (19/11/08)

I'm going AG - mostly for UK Bitters - but I tell you what, my second last partial brew, a fake lager, has turned out just what I have been looking for in a lager style beer. It's basically just a can of Coopers Lager plus a one kilo minimash with Perle malt. I have been getting muddy extract 'twangs' with my all extract brews so as an experiment I chucked in a kilo of dex instead to try for a cleaner finish.

Three hop additions of Green Bullet and BSaaz, Nottingham ale yeast, gelatine finings, Polyclar clear-out.





Drank the above one immediately after getting home from the local bowls club after a schooner of Pure Blonde and :icon_drool2: .

So AG is the way to go for controlling ingredients and crafting a great beer, but I'll be doing my partial lager again and again, and not knocking kits plus bits.


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## Fermented (19/11/08)

Bizier said:


> I thought I was going to go BIAB AG, but out of my control, I had to move house. Now I am in an apartment with no balcony. I have chosen the partial approach, because I can't deal with the volume of grain waste and general mess, or even sheer size of equipment. So I am resigned to at least a year of partial mash brewing.
> 
> You can make good (read MUCH BETTER than kit) beer with extract, plus you learn what the different ingredients add.


I agree with you wholeheartedly. 

Not sure what the balcony has to do with it?

I'm an apartment dweller for the next two to three years while I make enough scratch to go buy a house around here, so the extracts may still be for my quick and dirties but all malt is an easy upgrade and AG will just have to wait. By the time I get the house I will have enough experience and hopefully finesse with the other ingredients so that the learning process of AG can be just as cheerful and mind expanding (and liver shrinking). 

Cheers - Fermented.


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## Barley Belly (19/11/08)

Mantis said:


> US-05 $2



Where ya getting ya US05 for $2?


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## Barley Belly (19/11/08)

PostModern said:


> You extract guys are funny. Sure making/brewing (the terms in common usage don't necessarily reflect the dictionary definitions  ) a beer with extract is beer. The infusion part has just been done for you by Coopers or Bintani or whoever. When you (well, AG brewers) run the wort out of the mash tun, the product is sweet wort, also referred to as extract. You guys just save the hassle and "mess" of the process, which is good, but the cost to you is lack of control of the extract. This is all I was trying to get across.



Don't you AG guys get someone to grow and roast the grain for you???

Surely you don't have total control???


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## Katherine (19/11/08)

> Don't you AG guys get someone to grow and roast the grain for you???
> 
> Surely you don't have total control???



Oh come on... how much land would you need! We also trust people grow our hops!


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## Stuster (19/11/08)

Fermented said:


> Not sure what the balcony has to do with it?



AG is certainly easier with a balcony. Can do all the boiling there. I wouldn't want to be doing AG inside. :blink:


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## Barley Belly (19/11/08)

Katie said:


> Oh come on... how much land would you need! We also trust people grow our hops!



Is it TOTAL control?
Is it 100% fresh?

How could ya know, if ya don't grow?

Just my 2c (hard to type one handed, with a cut from my tin of cordial on my hand)


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## Fermented (19/11/08)

Stuster said:


> AG is certainly easier with a balcony. Can do all the boiling there. I wouldn't want to be doing AG inside. :blink:


Ah OK... I have a reasonably potent gas cook top and cook predominantly pungent foods (as do quite a few neighbours - smells better than a restaurant around here on the balcony at night) so smell and heat aren't issues for me. 

Thanks for clarifying.

Cheers - Fermented.


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## Katherine (19/11/08)

> Just my 2c (hard to type one handed, with a cut from my tin of cordial on my hand)



Have you thought I investing in a electric can opener??? Less cuts and less effort...


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## muckey (19/11/08)

if you set up your can in a vice over the fermenter and use an angle gringder to open it, you can get your goo out easily and aerate it at the same time h34r: 


:spelling doh!!


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## Stuster (19/11/08)

Fermented said:


> Ah OK... I have a reasonably potent gas cook top and cook predominantly pungent foods (as do quite a few neighbours - smells better than a restaurant around here on the balcony at night) so smell and heat aren't issues for me.



You're lucky to have a good gas stove. My electric one did not really appreciate trying to get the wort to the boil in my first few AGs. It's more the boil off of liquids than the smell. Boiling off several litres of water can lead to a bit of condensation. B)


----------



## jeremy (19/11/08)

+1 for Grumpys / Stillbrewing. This is where I started my transition from kits to AG (done about 10 AGs now). Start with a Masterbrew (all instructions included, 10 minute, 3 litre boil, flavour & aroma hops only, easy), move on to extrabrew (1 hr boil, 5ish litres, bitter, flavour and aroma hops), move onto superbrew (3kg partial mash).

Once you have mastered the superbrew, you are well equipped for AG. Even if you only do one or two of each it does the trick.

No affilliation either etc, etc.


----------



## PostModern (19/11/08)

finners said:


> Don't you AG guys get someone to grow and roast the grain for you???
> 
> Surely you don't have total control???



Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say "total" control? No, the farmer grows the seed, the maltster malts the seed and I mash the seed that I want in the beer I am brewing. Much more choice of grain than there is of extract, and many many different things can be done with things like water profiles, mash temperature and duration, runoff speed, milling gaps, etc etc etc. 

Of course there are plenty of things extract and minimashers can do with their fermentable bill. Hell, I brewed that way for years myself and made some great beers, but believe it or not, the best compliment I got for one of my beers was "you can't taste the extract!" I don't regret going AG and I recommend anyone with even a hint of curiousity to check it out. The results are brilliant and the process can be a lot of fun (yes, as no doubt it is with even kits and bits).

To be frank and to put the arguments aimed at me at rest, I love drinking a good beer, no matter how it's made. One of the best APAs I've had was made by a former member of my local club and it was extract, crystal and hops. It came second in NSW 2007, iirc, and deservedly.


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## Mantis (19/11/08)

finners said:


> Where ya getting ya US05 for $2?



Bought a 500g pack from Ross


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

finners said:


> Don't you AG guys get someone to grow and roast the grain for you???
> 
> Surely you don't have total control???



You mean all-grain brewing (or should I have just said 'brewing', being that AG is the _only_ way) isn't about controlling _everything_ ? While it's a bit much to ask that people grow their own barley, why not self germinate grains at home, then roast to one's own idiosyncratic own specifications ? Without doing so, it would seem that the most critical parts are already done ! And I would hope that hand milling with a mortar & pestle is de rigueur, electric mills seems like cheating to me, for it takes so much of the precious experience away........ 

Finners, watch out that you don't flare up your hayfever with all that fine malt powder either. Not only is extract brewing CRAP, it's also a health hazard. 

Are we helping the original poster out in this thread ?  He hasn't chimed in since it got tasty.


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

PostModern said:


> I love drinking a good beer, no matter how it's made. One of the best APAs I've had was made by a former member of my local club and it was extract, crystal and hops. It came second in NSW 2007, iirc, and deservedly.



Was that the same year as a kit beer won the Nationals ?


----------



## Katherine (19/11/08)

I use a mortal and pestle for my acidulated malt... I have not got a grain mill so I have to do a weekly shop to my LBS.... I have a bag of acidulated malt that a kindly retailer on this site gave to me.... 

That 10 minutes with my mortal and pestle gives me the feeling of power... I feel that I could control the world.... :icon_cheers:


----------



## Barley Belly (19/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say "total" control? No, the farmer grows the seed, the maltster malts the seed and I mash the seed that I want in the beer I am brewing. Much more choice of grain than there is of extract, and many many different things can be done with things like water profiles, mash temperature and duration, runoff speed, milling gaps, etc etc etc.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of things extract and minimashers can do with their fermentable bill. Hell, I brewed that way for years myself and made some great beers, but believe it or not, the best compliment I got for one of my beers was "you can't taste the extract!" I don't regret going AG and I recommend anyone with even a hint of curiousity to check it out. The results are brilliant and the process can be a lot of fun (yes, as no doubt it is with even kits and bits).
> 
> To be frank and to put the arguments aimed at me at rest, I love drinking a good beer, no matter how it's made. One of the best APAs I've had was made by a former member of my local club and it was extract, crystal and hops. It came second in NSW 2007, iirc, and deservedly.



I am not sure where I got the total control thing from, my mistake

and I thought because you said "The infusion part has just been done for you by Coopers or Bintani or whoever."
that you must grow the seed, and you malt the seed

my mistake again


----------



## PostModern (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Was that the same year as a kit beer won the Nationals ?



I believe a kit did win


























Once.


----------



## Pollux (19/11/08)

Okay, someone has to say it....Actually I think someone has, but no-one seemed to get it.....


Everyone has their own limits in terms of time, skills and budget.

I started in HBing to save costs on drinking commercial, and for a while I made kits with Coopers BE1, and I thought they were great, and hell, I made it...
Then I started to add LDME, and that was even more shit hot...
Then I added some hops, made the previous ones seem crap..
Then I started to steep grain, that was even tastier, even out of the fermenter.
And currently I have my first all extract in the fermenter, it tastes great too....


The moral is, people tend to brew for themselves, if they are happy with what they are making, or perhaps want to tweak it a little, than that's great news, more power to them.

But the number of AG and extract/Kit+Bit/K+K fanboys is beyond pathetic...Last time I checked this was a forum for beer production, which would mean everyone SHOULD be over 18....



After sitting back and reading this entire thread, I have to question that about some of the members who have posted....


To put it simply, everyone sit back, have a beer that you made and enjoy, and let everyone else be....


----------



## Fermented (19/11/08)

Stuster said:


> You're lucky to have a good gas stove. My electric one did not really appreciate trying to get the wort to the boil in my first few AGs. It's more the boil off of liquids than the smell. Boiling off several litres of water can lead to a bit of condensation. B)


Am a fresh air freak so the windows are open all year round, plus the laundry is adjacent and the window is open there. I just close the door when I am cooking stuff that needs reducing or long cooking (>6hrs) so that I don't get grief from the missus about condensation/oil/chilli smoke condensing on the chandelier in the dining room.  

Still, I think AG in any apartment (unless you have a 500 square metre penthouse with gardens!) is a bit ambitious.

Cheers - Fermented.


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## Jase71 (19/11/08)

Pollux, I think we're all at a point now where a sense of humour is the most important requirement.


----------



## PostModern (19/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Everyone has their own limits in terms of time, skills and budget.



Indeed.



Pollux said:


> After sitting back and reading this entire thread, I have to question that about some of the members who have posted....
> To put it simply, everyone sit back, have a beer that you made and enjoy, and let everyone else be....



Nothing like a bit of harmless flame war. Chillax, dude.


----------



## Katherine (19/11/08)

It's very funny to read! 

The post's just got misinterpted as usual as there is no facial expressions! No AG' r has bagged out K&K....


----------



## Pollux (19/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Nothing like a bit of harmless flame war. Chillax, dude.



I'm chilled, it just seems all this crap isn't really helping the poor guy who asked the question, and I fear he has just vanished now and will continue to make beer he isn't quite happy with, then give up and go back to megaswill......


----------



## jonocarroll (19/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Nothing like a bit of harmless flame war. Chillax, dude.



1. Add water to HLT
2. Place AHB forum responses under HLT to boil water instantly
3. ???
4. Profit!

:super:


----------



## Katherine (19/11/08)

> Pollux, I think we're all at a point now where a sense of humour is the most important requirement.



Totally and a little less EGO!!!!!!


----------



## Mantis (19/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I'm chilled, it just seems all this crap isn't really helping the poor guy who asked the question, and I fear he has just vanished now and will continue to make beer he isn't quite happy with, then give up and go back to megaswill......




I hope he has printed out Thirsty's document and given up on this thread h34r:


----------



## Fermented (19/11/08)

QuantumBrewer said:


> 1. Add water to HLT
> 2. Place AHB forum responses under HLT to boil water instantly
> 3. ???
> 4. Profit!


I sense a /b/tard in our midst. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## buttersd70 (19/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> snip......then roast to one's own idiosyncratic own specifications



Jase, some of us do roast our own grain. I don't go as far as germination, but I do roast to my own 'idiosyncratic specifications'.....I've stayed out of the argument thus far, because I have a strong sense of wanting to help people advance their brewing (as I was helped early on), and try not to get into this type of argument, preferring encouragement over accusation and counter accusation, as I'm sure you know.....

I'm nowhere near as one-eyed as some AG brewers, probably because I did the kit to extract to grain journey....some will refuse to even try kit beers...some go further, and refuse to try extracts, or even partials....I keep an open mind on such things. But when push comes to shove......it was said earlier by someone in this thread that thier worst AG was better than their best extract. I would have to agree with that. As far as "brewed to style", "competition winning beers", "BJCP guidlines"....thats all bollocks imho. What counts is taste. My best beer, _ever_, that I brewed was a partial. But my absolute best extract (with specialty grains) was just a shadow to my worst failure in AG brewing. For me it is the passion, the dedication, the determination, and the ability to think outside the box....it's the pursuit of perfection. What control do I want? As much as I can possibly get. I can force an AG beer to low apparent attenuation of only 50%, even with a 'high attenuating' yeast, if I want to.....theres _no _way I can do that with extract and specialty malt alone. 

I'm not trying to bag Extract brewing, in any way shape or form. It gives a much better result than kits and bits, which in turn gives a much better result than kits and kilo......but its not a shade on partial, or AG brewing, done in the hands of someone with experience, passion and vision.

Sorry to rant, mate....I like you, you know that....but I think you pushed your point a bit far. Sorry.

edit...no less than 7 posts have gone up since I started typing this......

Hopefully the OP is reading this entire thread, picking out the gems, and throwing out the crap.


----------



## Jase71 (19/11/08)

Katie said:


> No AG' r has bagged out K&K....



Really..... then my PC's playing silly buggers, as I swore I read the following statements: 
*
"The thought of drinking kit beer on a regular basis makes me dry reach"

"K&K/Extract is just not brewing. You aren't brewing anything."*

As for the direction of this topic, let's think if it was transposed to a round-table at the pub, where we're all chatting away, and let's face it, taking the piss out of each other in a jovial tone that is the norm in many an Aussie pub environment (unless it's one of those fancy bloody boutique pubs). It wouldn't seem out of place at all, would it ? Unless of course there's a sensitive type among us, then we'd all have to walk on eggshells so as not to upset any notions of social sensibilities. 

Fact is, kits & extracts ROCK. See 2007's fabled National Winner ! :lol: (Ok, Ive now got all the mileage out of that little fact, so I'll stop now)


----------



## brendo (19/11/08)

make beer... not war :beer:


----------



## Katherine (19/11/08)

> It wouldn't seem out of place at all, would it ? Unless of course there's a sensitive type among us, then we'd all have to walk on eggshells so as not to upset any notions of social sensibilities.



I think there is a little bit of "sensitive type" in us all hey Jase.......


----------



## Jase71 (19/11/08)

Katie said:


> I think there is a little bit of "sensitive type" in us all hey Jase.......



Oh yea, especially in me ! I'm your typical church mouse in real life, and the internet is where I hide my kittenish day-to-day persona. Katie, you are very perceptive, almost to the point that I feel, well, _violated_ by your insight.


----------



## Katherine (19/11/08)

boo.....

I'm going home to have a hand crafted AG beer! mmmm which one will I have.... :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## Jase71 (19/11/08)




----------



## muckey (19/11/08)

I'm going to someone elses home to drink their handcrafted beer instead of my own :icon_drunk:


----------



## roger mellie (19/11/08)

Katie said:


> boo.....
> 
> I'm going home to have a hand crafted AG beer! mmmm which one will I have.... :icon_chickcheers:



But I thought you were a PP disciple Katie

So that would be 

"I'm going home to have a hand crafted BIAB beer! mmmm which one will I have...."

And thats different innit.

h34r:


----------



## buttersd70 (19/11/08)

Muckey said:


> I'm going to someone elses home to drink their handcrafted beer instead of my own :icon_drunk:



There's one on every bus......


----------



## Stuster (19/11/08)

Fermented said:


> Still, I think AG in any apartment (unless you have a 500 square metre penthouse with gardens!) is a bit ambitious.



I've done more than a hundred AGs in our apartment. Ambitious - perhaps. Crazy - definitely. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Fermented (19/11/08)

Geez Stuster! How do you manage it? I've only got a 2 bed + study joint and I can't imagine trying it. 

What's your secret, dude?

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## Stuster (19/11/08)

A balcony and a garage.

Oh, and lots of trips up and down the stairs.


----------



## Pollux (19/11/08)

I intend to start doing BIAB in our apartment next year, on the stove, 60L pot straddling all four gas burners if I need it...

My fermenters have just been moved from under the kitchen table to down in the garage for summer.....


I can see me doing to wide legged walk up and down the stairs a few times...


----------



## Fermented (19/11/08)

Garage? Fookin' loooxury!

I've got a parking space, uncovered and insecure, but at least it has an automatic roller door. Well, I _did_ have it until I bought the missus some new wheels and put mine out in the street. Oh well... at least I get to drive it on weekends.

Cheers - Fermented.


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## Pollux (19/11/08)

I don't own a car anymore and our garage has always been a storage location....

It even has carpet....And my spare stereo with the big speakers set up....


----------



## Fermented (19/11/08)

Lucky bugger.  Sounds like you have the right kinda "man's den" happening there. 

Cheers - Fermented.


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## Brewtus (19/11/08)

I look at it as a journey.

K&K, K&B, extract, partial, AG. I'm not there yet but I am happy to go at my own pace. I figure if you jump straight to AG you miss lots of things on the way. If you fly from Sydney to Brisbane you get there quick but you miss a lot of interesting places and fun things to do. Yes it takes time but who's in a rush? Even when you get to AG there can be a journey - BIAB, the No Chill thrill, milling you own grain, upgrading you kit. :zen .. (where's the little zen face?)


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## antains (19/11/08)

Just coz I'm a sh*t:



Jase71 said:


> And I would hope that hand milling with a mortar & pestle is de rigueur, electric mills seems like cheating to me, for it takes so much of the precious experience away........



You forgot about harnessing the sun's rays to boil and I'm not talking about namby-pamby solar panels. :lol: 



Katie said:


> ...a little less EGO!!!!!!



Awwww, Katie! Where's the fun in that?



Jase71 said:


> As for the direction of this topic, let's think if it was transposed to a round-table at the pub...
> ...Unless of course there's a sensitive type among us, then we'd all have to walk on eggshells so as not to upset any notions of social sensibilities.



I agree and thank you for noticing. :huh:  



brendo said:


> make beer... not war



Awwww, Katie! Where's the fun in that? Ooh, sorry, Brendo. 



Edit: I never knew there was a limit on how many emoticons could be used!


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## brendo (19/11/08)

antains said:


> Just coz I'm a sh*t:



nuff said right there... h34r:


----------



## antains (19/11/08)

brendo said:


> nuff said right there... h34r:



Well, it's no fun swinging wildly if you don't take out a mate on the way...


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## Back Yard Brewer (19/11/08)

finners said:


> Don't you AG guys get someone to grow and roast the grain for you???
> 
> Surely you don't have total control???




Yep, just like the Micro's and big brewers do. During quite a long sword isnt it <_< 

BYB


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## Weizguy (19/11/08)

QuantumBrewer said:


> <snippetted>
> Good luck, enjoy, and of course "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" :beer: (can I get sued for saying that?)
> </snippetted>


So, do you know any good photographers?  

Chillax, be real. It is a highly respected tradition on this forum, although I am not necessarily speaking for anyone else, that readers/forumers will respond to a request to have another beer. I can't believe that a bloke who could speak that sentence would ever sue anyone for using it. It's free publicity for him if you spread the word.
Tonight I had an all-grain clone of Fullers London Pride. Best beer I've made with this recipe. I used a WLP002 that I saved from a PoMo beer in a previous NSW case swap. Fruity and malty, with enough hop bite to balance. I'll save one for the Goatherder. Sometimes you like a beer too much too notice that there's anything wrong with it. He'll let me know, and it will be good BJCP practice. Maybe even a judging sheet? This is also another game that can be played when you step up to the big-league of *all-grain*. Just jokes, Joyce. :lol: 

Les out


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## dr K (19/11/08)

I think it was Papazian who quipped along the lines of "Best beer in the world, the one one I've got in my hand right now".
Now he is certainly correct but where "homebrew" has fallen down for years, certainly from my observations here in Australia, is within the group of "brewers" who having made their first kit undergo some form of epithany where forever more the commercial product, which no doubt they had been drinking for years, becomes megaswill and their own particular brew is nothing short of fantastic, this group ridicules those who find the HB not to their peronal taste as running lackeys of the megaswill conglomerates. They see their own particular brand of beer, complete with diacetyl, acetaldehyde, rank fermentation problems, and a KFC of phenolics, fusels, cardboard, and cats piss on a hot tin roof as superior, as real beer should taste and no doubt, for their own individual taste may be correct but the average consumer (the ridiculed one with an apparent taste for swill) finds that the product tastes like, lets face it, homebrew.
Now, fortunately most, if not all of the contributors to this forum are not in that group. To the contary they strive to make good beer, the best beer they can and to a large extent they do.
Arguing senselessly and needlessly about the merits or otherwise of kit or extract or AG is pointless.
Most homebrewing in the States is by way of extract plus specialty grains and yes I grant you they have a much wider range of specialty extracts available but this is only in response to market demand.
Infections aside, the most dismal homebrew beers I have ever tasted or for that matter made are AG and I have tasted a lot of beers and judged a lot of beers.
Get your basic techniques correct with KandK (following the ThirstyBoy Manifesto is as good an advice as anyone could give you).
Learn that beer has faults, learn what they are, how to identify them and finally how to reduce the impact on your beer.
If you can take a fresh basic kit, a kilo of sugar and please some decent yeast (say US05) and make from that a bland, but easy to drink beer (how some describe megaswill) then you well on the way to being a champion brewer. Use these techniques and then start ramping your beer up.

K


----------



## jonocarroll (20/11/08)

:icon_offtopic: 



Les the Weizguy said:


> So, do you know any good photographers?



Sure, but only really in SA; photography is my other main hobby [one that seems to be rather more expensive than HB - sometimes there's just no substitute for good equipment]. Thankfully SWMBO is very supportive of both, so I'm hoping that soon I'll have great beer and lots of photos of the process. :beer: 

Just to satisfy _everyone_ (with a round of chill-pils - hey, that's a great name for a beer!):



> BREW
> v. _tr._
> 
> To make (ale or beer) from malt and hops by infusion, boiling, and fermentation.
> ...



Surely that covers all bases, yes? The only difference is really where you're starting from, and what you've allowed someone else to do for you first.


----------



## petesbrew (20/11/08)

Katie said:


> I use a mortal and pestle for my acidulated malt... I have not got a grain mill so I have to do a weekly shop to my LBS.... I have a bag of acidulated malt that a kindly retailer on this site gave to me....
> 
> That 10 minutes with my mortal and pestle gives me the feeling of power... I feel that I could control the world.... :icon_cheers:



A bit off topic... A month back my daughter helped out crack some steeping grains with the mortar & pestle. "I taste?" she asked. Gave her a bit of choc, "yum". Then I did some melanoidin, she tastes some, and went back for a handful!.
Last week, when she saw me getting the grain ready for my AG Saison, I had to fight her off. "I TASTE, I TASTE!" she was screaming. She came back out of the garage chewing away, SWMBO asked her what she's got in her mouth, to which she opened it to show a mouth full of half-chewed grain.

Back on topic, It would be interesting to see comp results show which is AG, Partial, Extract and KnK.
In the Castle hill show, I was suprised to see my KnK stout score higher than my 2xAGs and a partial.... could say something about my AG's though... hehe.


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## microbe (20/11/08)

dr K said:


> ~snip~ They see their own particular brand of beer, complete with diacetyl, acetaldehyde, rank fermentation problems, and a KFC of phenolics, fusels, cardboard, and cats piss on a hot tin roof as superior, as real beer should taste and no doubt, for their own individual taste may be correct but the average consumer (the ridiculed one with an apparent taste for swill) finds that the product tastes like, lets face it, homebrew.
> Now, fortunately most, if not all of the contributors to this forum are not in that group. To the contary they strive to make good beer, the best beer they can and to a large extent they do.
> Arguing senselessly and needlessly about the merits or otherwise of kit or extract or AG is pointless.
> ~snip~
> ...



Now that's one of the best posts to this thread I've read.

Nothing more to add.

Cheers,

microbe


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## reviled (20/11/08)

I did about 20 odd K&K brews, 2 extracts, then I did one Partial and thought, stuff this, im going AG :lol: 

Havnt regretted it, beers are like, a million times better than even the extract beers!!! K&K beers have now been sitting in my shed for 4months plus and I still cant stomach them <_<


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## PostModern (20/11/08)

dr K said:


> Arguing senselessly and needlessly about the merits or otherwise of kit or extract or AG is pointless.



Pointless but fun


----------



## reviled (20/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Pointless but fun



The only thing that makes it pointless, is most AG'ers know both K&K and AG brewing sides of things, where as most K&K brewers only know this avenue, yet they still argue its just as good or better, without actually knowing...

I would say it is rare for someone to try AG and then go back to kits?


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## PostModern (20/11/08)

LHBS reckons there's a local famous AG brewer who still pops in to buy the odd kit for his fishing trips. I won't name and shame him, but there is still a place for kits when wishing to make an easy dump and stir for quaffing beers.

Another analogy, I really like nice wines. Luckily I have a friend with an extensive cellar and I often help him drink the odd 20 year old red, or just a really nice young white. I generally spend $20-$30 on a bottle for a nice night out or for dinners with friends etc, and spend a fair amount of time selecting it. But I still drink the odd cleanskin when cooking simple foods or when quaffing over a BBQ and such. There is a place for all kinds of wine, and similarly, all kinds of beer and brewing.

That said, I think it's at least 2 years since I pulled out a can opener to make a beer.


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## wyatt_girth (20/11/08)

reviled said:


> The only thing that makes it pointless, is most AG'ers know both K&K and AG brewing sides of things, where as most K&K brewers only know this avenue, yet they still argue its just as good or better, without actually knowing...




I haven't been on here all that long but I am yet to see anyone argue that K&k is better than AG. 

I'm a kits and bits man and probably will be for a long while mostly due to time constraints. I do, however, fill at least 3 of my 5 kegs with FWKs and am well aware of the quality difference between my own concoctions and these FWKs made from AG, which is why I prefer the FWK. After all that is what I am after - a nice beer. At the same time I am still mixing the odd can and bits because it gives me some time out, and a bit of a sense of ownership of what I am drinking and at the end of the day if I can enjoy drinking it then thats good enough for me.

I do look forward to the day when I can get started on an AG set-up but for now am quite content with what I have - IMO beer.


----------



## antains (20/11/08)

reviled said:


> The only thing that makes it pointless, is most AG'ers know both K&K and AG brewing sides of things, where as most K&K brewers only know this avenue, yet they still argue its just as good or better, without actually knowing...
> 
> I would say it is rare for someone to try AG and then go back to kits?




<_< Hmmm, I think what the gist has been is that us little ol' K&Kers should just be allowed to enjoy what we're doing without having it diminished as a hobby or potentially a craft.
Many K&Kers are not going to disagree with your point of view about their awareness of AG and, as with Brendo, many are going to observe some AG days. I'll grant you that AGers will know both aspects.  
As to anyone saying K&K is better, I don't think that has been stated. It has been reiterated that a K&K has once beaten AGs at competition level. However, that's not being held up as indicative of a superior process. It's being held up as indicative that K&K can hold the occassional trump and it is a process.
I think why we have been defensive of K&K is, as I just wrote, because it shouldn't be diminished. 
Does Jase agree?

PostModern's presumably feeling fairly targeted because of a comment that was basically harmless. Unfortunately, it sparked the flames. And those flames were to defend K&K. I don't think PostModern needs to feel targeted, because other remarks were just as incendiary and just as innocent.

To be serious, reviled, I think it's time to ease off. Many of the K&Kers who posted in this thread expressed a desire to progress beyond the kits (which is certainly the aim of the OP), myself inlcuded. Some are just constrained by various factors.

Butters' post was one of a select few that expressed a reasoning that was admirable, because it outlined that AG awareness of K&K that you've discussed, but promoted the AG brewer as inspirational and a guiding light that K&Kers can follow without fear of rebuke. :icon_cheers: 


Now, look what you've done. You've made me write like an adult and I didn't get to put any bad jokes in.  Can we go back to pointless and fun, now?





Edit: wyatt_girth posted as I wrote my essay.


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## drsmurto (20/11/08)

I didnt think my dolmio references were out of line.

I made my spag bol from a jar for many many years (actually, i didnt make much than didnt come from a tin, jar or packet during my uni days) and made a nice enough meal, washed down by kit beers.

I jumped online searching for info on brewing as i wasnt happy with my results. I am a scientist so knew there had to be a reason why my K&K clones were nothing like the real deal. Stumbled onto this and other brewing forums and went from there. my own curiosity led me to AG.

And FWIW - there is one AG brewer i know of that has never brewed anything other than AG.


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## PostModern (20/11/08)

antains said:


> PostModern's presumably feeling fairly targeted because of a comment that was basically harmless. Unfortunately, it sparked the flames. And those flames were to defend K&K. I don't think PostModern needs to feel targeted, because other remarks were just as incendiary and just as innocent.



I don't feel targeted, I just like stirring the pot a little  I like encouraging people to come to the Dark Side. It's the K&K Jedis who can't see the power of the Dark Side, or deny it's true superiority that need correcting and cajoling/impelling them is fun. Every time the kit vs AG argument comes up, I can't help but jump in. AG makes producing good beer so easy once you're set up, I really can't see why people resist the lure. 

Come to the Dark Side! Smell the mash, feel the power of the boil! It is your destiny!


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## Jase71 (20/11/08)

reviled said:


> most K&K brewers only know this avenue, yet they still argue its just as good or better, without actually knowing...


I concur, No one one this thread has _seriously_ suggested that K&K is better beer...... 

Dr Smurto, your analogy is spot on, and I can appreciate where you're coming from, we almost never use 'food in a jar' in this household. A curry made from scratch (even better when some of the herbs are picked from one's own garden) is unequalled by even the best off-the-shelf sauce - and I hate to say this but that is just not cooking. On that note, my Madras Curry is way better than your AG beer as a curry. :huh: The quintessential Indian Dark Ale if ever there was one  

To anyone who thinks this thread is out of place, keep in mind that PoMo, a moderator, is enjoying the flow as much as many of the rest of us! Praise from Caesar!


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## brendo (20/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Come to the Dark Side! Smell the mash, feel the power of the boil! It is your destiny!



hmmmmm the wort is strong in this one... 

*where's a yoda smiley when you need it?*


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## antains (20/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> ...my own curiosity led me to AG...



Don't you know curiosity killed the cat?!?!?!?
Or did it just have a little nap after lapping up too much beer?  

If it wasn't for curiousity, many of us wouldn't be doing this or on this forum. :beer:


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## PostModern (20/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> To anyone who thinks this thread is out of place, keep in mind that PoMo, a moderator, is enjoying the flow as much as many of the rest of us! Praise from Caesar!



It might belong in the Pub now, but meh....


----------



## staggalee (20/11/08)

antains said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> Alright, fair point.
> 
> The human process I enjoy out of these types of discussions is learning about the people one may never actually meet by observing what baits them and what eggs them on.
> ...



Yeah, maybe....
I think your last 2 posts demonstrates enough thanks.
To label everyone and anyone who drinks "meggaswill" as "simpletons" is the height of arrogance.

stagga.


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## antains (20/11/08)

staggalee said:


> Yeah, maybe....
> I think your last 2 posts demonstrates enough thanks.
> To label everyone and anyone who drinks "meggaswill" as "simpletons" is the height of arrogance.
> 
> stagga.



Aww, look at that. I upset someone. So much so that you've misquoted me.
I didn't write that anyone who drinks megaswill was a simpleton. I wrote that simpletons drink megaswill.

And, yes, I am arrogant.

However, to temper my arrogance, I also concede that I don't know anywhere near as much about brewing as most others on this forum.

Nevertheless, thanks for the personal attack, stagga.

Ant.


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## staggalee (20/11/08)

Pleasure.

stagga.


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## antains (20/11/08)

staggalee said:


> Pleasure.
> 
> stagga.



:lol: Gold!


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## RobboMC (20/11/08)

The first step is probably doing 50/50 kit and extract, with a boil of about 5 litres.

Next comes equal thirds of kit/extract/mini-mash.

When you taste the quality of beer that comes from adding one kg of grain,
well the path to the dark side opens to you.


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## TasChris (20/11/08)

Hi all,
like many other brewers I had a slow but steady progression to AG
Kit and kilo of sugar
Kit and kilo dry malt extract
Kit and malt and extra hops and liquid yeast
Grumpy's master brew then extra brews etc with liquid yeast
AG
I think its good to go thru the steps as it taught me what effect each step made and improved my beer along the way. The main driver was I wanted to learn more about the process and the side effect was an improvement in my beer.

Are my beers better now than when I K+Ked?? 
Definately YES, but if I brewed a K+K now it would be better than my old K+K as my processes and techniques are far better. 

I have always veiwed brewing as a cheap but enjoyable hobby which I can sink my teeth into and exercise my mind and creativity and as a bonus I produce beer, which I love.

With regard to drinking mega swill, K+K, extract or AG, I drink and enjoy any, some or all of them. It depends what I am after.

Sometimes when I read I want to read Tolstoy but some days I want to read Asterix the Gaul. It depends what I am after

Some of my most enjoyable drinking experiences have as much to do with the company, atmosphere and location than with the quality of beer, however my first AG beer from my own keg, sitting on the porch at home is probably up at the top of the heap.

Every six months or so the KK Vs AG argument seems to rear its head and while it often starts in fun always seems to get heated pretty quick and always goes nowhere.

Chris


----------



## PostModern (20/11/08)

TasChris said:


> Hi all,
> like many other brewers I had a slow but steady progression to AG
> Kit and kilo of sugar
> Kit and kilo dry malt extract
> ...



I'll summarise this wall of text to "AG is better". Thanks


----------



## TasChris (20/11/08)

PostModern said:


> I'll summarise this wall of text to "AG is better". Thanks




Yes


----------



## muckey (20/11/08)

RobboMC said:


> When you taste the quality of beer that comes from adding one kg of grain,
> well the path to the dark side opens to you.




wise words!

I didn't add grain in my kit and bit experiments but having tasted it in others and experiencing what it gives to the beer, was 1 of the things that encouraged me on my "Beer Quest"

K&K is a good starting point - substituting malt for sugar certainly is a first step, experimenting with hops and grains are very possible and enable some very good beers to be made very easily. Its easy to get a brew kit and start with a kit and I've known several people who never get any further. but I think that kits lend themselves to experimentation. The flavour profile in most kits seems to be low enough that small recipe changes can make big differences.

Having now finally stepped up to AG I have no intention of going back to kits if I can possibly help it, simply because I want to produce the beer I like. I certainly do not denegrate anyones kit beer. I'm happy to offer suggestions but understand that any suggestion is always biased to MY taste and may be completely dismissed. I always resisted AG brewing due to a lack of time - I have to make an effort to fit a brew day into everything else I need to do.

Try a grain steep and experience the different flavours to be had. there are many different specialty grains available and they all have different qualities.

The sky is the limit. Don't be daunted by those who suggest that AG is the only option - its NOT. On the other side if you are happy with the beer you make then dont change it because someone else doesn't like it, make the change because you want to.

find a good kit or good malt extract - one that you know and brew consistantly and start making changes. Try a hop boil and see how it changes the flavour, substitue some extra malt and even do a grain steep, try dry hopping. If you use your well known brew as a baseline you'll quickly pick up the changes and get to know all the ingredients that are available and then if you do decide to become an AG brewer, you'll be well on your way to knowing what kind of AG recipe you are looking for. If along the way you find the brew you're happy with you can stick with it.

Brewing is an adventure, its about discovering flavours and styles and finding the ones YOU enjoy!


----------



## antains (20/11/08)

PostModern said:


> I'll summarise this wall of text to "AG is better". Thanks



Alright, alright. Geez! As soon as the baby bonus comes in, I'll tell the missus, "No. We're not getting a plasma. We're setting up for AG!" :lol: 

Incidentally, the AG starter guide that's here, is that current? I couldn't quite follow where the updated version went to or if this was it.



Edit: typo.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/11/08)

It's taken me three years of AG brewing (and few of K&K before that) to realise that the whole K&K vs AG argument is utterly secondary. The difference between good beer and bad beer isn't made in the Mash Tun or in the Tin... its made in the fermentor.

Trying for the best beer in the world is an admirable goal, but for me, the thing that should be foremost in the mind of all but the best homebrewers, is not how to make "great" beer, but how to avoid making bad beer. I dunno about you, but I find beer to be an inherently pleasant tasting thing - if it is made with a minimum of faults, it _will_ taste good.

If you use a nice fresh kit, follow some of the basic advice you can find on this forum for improving that kit and have a well controlled fermentation... fairly decent beer will be the result. If you make a mash with good quality ingredients, and you have a well controlled fermentation - decent tasting beer will be the result.

If you do either of those things and have a lousy fermentation regime - you are very likely to make actually _bad_ tasting beer, no matter how good your wort production process was.

So for me the whole "go AG - the difference will be amazing..." argument is conditional. It _might_ be, but if you didn't first ask whether the brewer you are talking to has a temperature controlled fermentation set-up and a good understanding of yeast wrangling... then it also might just be wasting their time and money.

Fermenting is what K&Kers do - they have minimal input into the wort production process, so they get to concentrate on the fermentation aspect. They get to learn how yeast behaves, how fermentation time & temperature effects their beer. AG brewers generally say how easy the process of mashing is, and they are right. So the vast majority of the skills involved in making a great beer, can be learned by brewing K&K. Without the need for 6-8hr brewdays and hundreds of dollars of extra equipment. If you are incapable of making a great tasting kit beer, then you are going to be equally incapable of making a great tasting AG beer.

So by all means shout to the rooftops how wonderful AG beer can be, it can!! But don't forget that it can also be bloody woeful. Stamping out the bad is so much more important than aiming for the good ... try shouting to the world about how wonderful temperature controlled brewing is... not nearly as sexy, but so much more likely to result in a real improvement in the beer.

AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.


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## Katherine (20/11/08)

> AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.



I like what you have to say and read most of your posts... but I don't agree with that. Who's says its a waste of time?


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## staggalee (20/11/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> It's taken me three years of AG brewing (and few of K&K before that) to realise that the whole K&K vs AG argument is utterly secondary. The difference between good beer and bad beer isn't made in the Mash Tun or in the Tin... its made in the fermentor.
> 
> Trying for the best beer in the world is an admirable goal, but for me, the thing that should be foremost in the mind of all but the best homebrewers, is not how to make "great" beer, but how to avoid making bad beer. I dunno about you, but I find beer to be an inherently pleasant tasting thing - if it is made with a minimum of faults, it _will_ taste good.
> 
> ...



I`m quite neutral about the whole subject, but just going by your last paragraph above, doesn`t that mean everyone who is now making AG, is wasting their time with a mash tun, unless they continually made faultless kits previously?
There must have been a lot of gun brewers making kits if that is the case?

stagga.

good post anyway, TB.


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## PostModern (20/11/08)

Big post there TB. Another PoMo wall of text translation:

Fermentation control is important too.

Yes. I agree. First things we tell all the n00bs around here: Sanitise, ferment at right temp, pitch enough yeast.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/11/08)

staggalee said:


> I`m quite neutral about the whole subject, but just going by your last paragraph above, doesn`t that mean everyone who is now making AG, is wasting their time with a mash tun, unless they continually made faultless kits previously?
> There must have been a lot of gun brewers making kits if that is the case?
> 
> stagga.
> ...



well... as much as it constitutes poking the angry bear with a stick to say this - yeah, it really kinda sorta does mean that.

To use myself as an example - I entered 12 different beers into the comps this year, some of them did quite well, some of them were mid range; and a few of them were terrible.

Why - most of the negative comments were around fermentation issues. Sure, on the better beers there were little faults and whatnot that were related to recipe and to mash technique, but they were generally quite decent beers that could be improved. The "bad" beers, were from fermentation flaws, and there were also enough low level fermentation flaws mentioned in even the good beers, that I know I have some issues.

The phrase "waste of time" was quite deliberate, I can fix my fermentation issues by brewing AG and concentrating - but if I was serious about making my beer better whilst wasting the least time and effort. I would put down the mash paddle for 6 months and crank through a bunch of K&K (or fresh wort I suppose) brews and nail down those fermentation issues. When the kits were coming out flawless - back to the mash tun.

I'm unlikely to actually do that of course, I am far too stubborn and besides I happen to really enjoy the AG process (a thing mostly unmentioned so far... AG is actually a lot of fun) - but if I were truly on an uncompromising beer improvement quest - my mash tun actually would be a waste of time.

And I don't think I am alone


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## fergi (20/11/08)

well being a K&K i dont want to get into the war of what is better , K&K or AG, its obvious all grain made correctly and with a good recipe is a better finished product, i would love to be making all grain.but i havent got all the gear and also i dont at the moment feel like putting the time into it. however i have tasted a lot of fantastic K&K beers and a lot of horrible all grain beers, now i know that some people here say that a badly made all grain is still better than a good K&K, well let me just say if thats what you think get your head out of the sand. and as far as comparing instant coffee to "REAL" coffee well i hate the taste of real coffee . but you know what, its just as well that we all have different tastes otherwise we would all be drinking the same bloody tasting beer as well. great post by thirsty Boy and brings a controlled unbiased comment to this posting, however in saying all this i will one day get around to all grain, but in the mean time i really enjoy some of the great K&K beers that i make, i also hate some of the crap ones that i make, and i am sure that when i go all grain", i will enjoy some of the great beers that i will make and hate some of the crap beers that i will make, once again Thirsty boy great post
cheers
fergi


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## staggalee (20/11/08)

well put, TB.
While you probably wouldn`t be alone, you probably would be one of the few to say so.

stagga.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/11/08)

PostModern said:


> Big post there TB. Another PoMo wall of text translation:
> 
> Fermentation control is important too.
> 
> Yes. I agree. First things we tell all the n00bs around here: Sanitise, ferment at right temp, pitch enough yeast.



I will try to be brief then.

I disagree. I _don't_ think fermentation control is "important too" - I think it is much much _more_ important than AG

thus all the extra explanatory words.....


edit: oh and I forgot...


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## PostModern (20/11/08)

Fair enough. Amazing how the whole context changes by one little word. 

You are of course right. I've made good kit beers and count yeast management high on my list of procedural importance. I actually filled my first keg with a Cascade Pale kit and it was great with just the kit, some DME, dextrose and a fistfull of some hop or other. Good yeast and fermentation control made it a great beer.


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## TasChris (20/11/08)

:icon_offtopic: 
Perhaps PoMo you have hit on a potential new web site to partner babelfish
Babelfish to translate foreign languages into English
PoMofish to translate verbose English into more concise English

Chris


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## Jase71 (20/11/08)

antains said:


> Alright, alright. Geez! As soon as the baby bonus comes in, I'll tell the missus, "No. We're not getting a plasma. We're setting up for AG!" :lol:


I'm so glad my tax money is paying for your personal entertainment <_< 



Thirsty Boy said:


> AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.


Which brings me back to my earlier query way back in the beginning. Why is it that _some_ commercial microbreweries attached to pubs can churn out beer that, once it gets poured into my glass, hovers between average and absolute crap, yet on the other hand I can experience consistently great beers out of my neighbours wide & varied range being made exclusively with kits & bits - not even talking extract brewing here...... I suspect that I can answer my own question - freshness ? In the case of one pub quite close to my house, being a 'knockabout' blokey pub, most of the locals bypass the range of in-house beers entirely. And they don't bottle AFAIK, so perhaps the beer's often sitting around for several months too many in the keg. Thoughts anyone ? 

This pub (and head brewer) in question _can_ produce a great beer, I've had a chocolate porter there that blew my mind, and as a rule ive never enjoyed dark beers, but this one was to die for. Sadly, on subsequent visits I couldn't even finish my glass, it was that bad.

EDIT: A few words so as not to sound like I'm stereotyping all pub microbreweries, a lot of who do produce fine beers.


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## Fermented (20/11/08)

I have to agree with Jase71.

There have been a few microbreweries in pubs that I have been to over the years. The results at first seem to be sterling but later product is less so. Is it complacency on the part of the brewer or is there some kind of MRSA-ish bug that gets a foothold in breweries and roots the product?

I did the complete range at Lord Nelsons last weekend (a la vertical tasting) and I remember them to have been much better in the past. Or are my tastebuds victims of nostalgic sensations?

Cheers - Fermented.

EDIT: Refined a statement.


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## antains (20/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> I'm so glad my tax money is paying for your personal entertainment <_<



Don't worry about your money. I'm content with what I have.


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## dr K (20/11/08)

TB


> And I don't think I am alone


No TB, you are not.

I must say that I am rather fascinated with the course of this thread, smarter women and men than I have observed that nothing highlights stupidity more than prejudice.
My thoughts on this madness can be found earlier in this thread and it is only my fascination that brings me back.
"what is the next step up from k&k", well given a fair share of response I guess you drop the "&" and replace it with a k, having done that join whatever side you like, why bother boiling wort when you can use that fire to burn crosses and that fruit in your beer is strange fruit indeed.

K


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## staggalee (20/11/08)

late one evening outside a kit and kilo brewers home.........


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## barls (20/11/08)

is that what was out the front of my place the other night


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## dr K (20/11/08)

If I laughed anymore I would need a napkin...for incontinence !!!
Great stuff!!


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## staggalee (20/11/08)

the white hoods double as grainbags  

stagga.


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## barls (20/11/08)

so it wasnt the ag brewers it was the biab ones, i thought the marshmallows they were toasting gave it away


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## muckey (20/11/08)

makes you wonder where they keep their hop socks 

: spelling


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## staggalee (20/11/08)

Jesus, don`t start that :lol: 

stagga.


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## mick8882003 (21/11/08)

Hmm, do I, or do I post back in this thread?

Well to follow up, I rang up Pat at Absolute Homebrewing and had a bit of a talk with him (a few days ago.) He seems like a really nice bloke, he spent considerable time answer a few questions that I had and answered them well. I got him to make me up a recipe for a kit & extras to start me off with (to be honest I would have been guessing any way.) - Side note I did want a nice lager, but that will have to wait until next winter. 

In the meantime I have been reading up on the net on all grain brewing, what I really want is a turnkey set, but I looked at one and they wanted close to five grand for the setup!

Oh yea and Ive got the shits today, bought a kegging system off ebay, should have been here today. Now I have to wait till monday.


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## muckey (21/11/08)

Mick C said:


> Oh yea and Ive got the shits today, bought a kegging system off ebay, should have been here today. Now I have to wait till monday.




thats almost as bad as hjaving empty kegs :lol:


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## Brewtus (21/11/08)

If this argument sounds a bit religious, that's silly. When did religious zealots ever brew beer?

I just sit back and enjoy a Trappist ale........


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## LightLager (23/11/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'll twist it a little from your original question - I wrote a bit of a guide for my brother in law's Dad - a long time K&Ker who was making drinkable, but flawed beers.
> 
> View attachment 22639



Thanks Thirsty...

That sheet is great! I think it will really help me with my K&K.

Cheers...


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## Bizier (23/11/08)

LightLager said:


> Thanks Thirsty...
> 
> That sheet is great! I think it will really help me with my K&K.
> 
> Cheers...



I also have to thank you for that. It made it into a bunch of stuff I gave to my dad, who still follows the supplied instructions.


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