# Toucan Stout/dark Ale Side By Side Brew Test



## tahzan (27/3/09)

Got 4*Tooheys Dark Ale kits on clearance at Coles yesterday. Going to do a Stout/Dark Ale toucan as it seems a popular combo. Was thinking of running a second batch of the same simultaneously but with either DME added or with one can boiled before mixing. Regular taste comparisons thereafter to see any benefits etc and train my homebrew palate a little!

Have never added large amounts of DME before so is 500g enough to notice? Will dark or light DME be significant at this amount also?

How long does a can need to be boiled for to reduce it bitterness?

Saf-04 yeast cake from current brew to be used in both. Other option is to brew both unfettered and try different finishing hops in each. All straightforward suggestions welcome.

Thanks in advance, I have learnt heaps on this forum.


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## Bribie G (27/3/09)

For starters, most of the bitterness in cans is isohop and you can boil them till the cows come home and they won't be any less bitter. However adding extra malt will balance up the bitterness. A toucan plus 500g LMDE and 500 dex should make a nice brew. In the winter I made some coopers stout toucans with a kilo of LDME and a kilo of DEX. Not too bitter and good headbanging beer :super:


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## petesbrew (27/3/09)

BribieG said:


> For starters, most of the bitterness in cans is isohop and you can boil them till the cows come home and they won't be any less bitter. However adding extra malt will balance up the bitterness. A toucan plus 500g LMDE and 500 dex should make a nice brew. In the winter I made some coopers stout toucans with a kilo of LDME and a kilo of DEX. Not too bitter and good headbanging beer :super:



Yeah you won't need too much hops in it... probably a teabag's worth for some flavour only. The toucan/dark comes out pretty bitter (but not out of place for a good warming winter stout).
IMO swap the Dex for 500g-1kg-ish brown sugar, or even some palm/coconut/weird sugar from an asian grocery. Should add a bit of flavour in.


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## WarmBeer (27/3/09)

What a co-inky-dink,

Just scored a tin of Coopers Stout and a tin of Coopers Dark for $5.20 at the Coles. Both tins are Best Before dates of 2010.

Going to add 500gm DDME to offset the bitterness, and go 10g Goldings @ 10 mins, plus 10g at flameout, and use Danstar Nottingham to plough through it.

I've got some Choc grain hanging around. Should I do a 100-200gm steep for extra flavour, or is this going overboard?

Comments? Suggestions? Criticism? All welcome.

Brett


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## tahzan (27/3/09)

Okay - the boiliing is out and I am now going to go and learn what isohops are.

Am now thinking I could I try brown sugar in one and ldme in t'other. I am keen to see the effect of individual changes.


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## boingk (27/3/09)

Go for it Brett - all the ingredients you can get! Mwah ha ha ha haaaa....

In all seriousness, that sounds pretty darn good.

I'm planning to use a Tooheys Dark Ale kit I got for $7 (again, a good use-by date of late 2010) with my usual 500/300 mix of LDME/Dex and nothing else. I'm going to compare it to a Coopers Dark Ale I'll do with a 3kg partial of JW Pale, and my 'Soul Beer' Robust Porter thats in my sig, all fermented with S-04 to 23L. Mainly, the comparo is out of interest and a fun way of getting stocks up.

Cheers - boingk


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## WarmBeer (27/3/09)

Oh yeah, I'm thinking only 18 litres. 

Gonna call it my "Sump Oil Stout".

:chug:


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## boingk (27/3/09)

I'd be more incline to go the usual volume, but if you wanna do 18L I'd recommend a better yeast than whats in the kits. S-04 would go swimmingly, or US-05 if you want a ballistic high alcohol monster with not so much body. 

I'm guessing you're looking more along the lines of S-04.

Cheers - boingk


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## sirotilc (27/3/09)

I did a Toucan earlier this year with two cans of the Tooheys Dark Ale kit. Added 500g of LDME, used both kit yeasts, pitched at 24degC, fermented ~18degC. Everything was fine, tasted ok (a tad boring) 2 weeks after bottling, and a bit better after another 2 weeks. Nothing funny going on at this point. I thought that it might improve with a bit more. Opened one up last week (after 2 months in the bottle), and was greeted with a spew aroma. The taste was acceptable (holding the nose), but it absolutely reeked of spew. Every other bottle was the same - no idea what went wrong. Could there have been an infection that took a while to fully assert itself (so to speak), or something else wrong? Use by date on the cans was mid 2010. 

That probably doesn't help you at all, but that's my experience with a Toohey's Dark Ale Toucan for what it's worth (about 1cent  )


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## WarmBeer (27/3/09)

Was thinking of experimenting with Danstar Nottingham, as I've heard it will chew through anything before going to sleep.

I've got some S-04 in the fridge, which turns out easier, but I've found it to be a little lazy in reaching lowish FG. (Have a look through some of my previous posts about the Porter I couldn't get lower than 1030, although no bottle bombs yet!!!)

Maybe I'll split the difference, and go 20 litres


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## j1gsaw (27/3/09)

My Toucan stout turned into an evil eeevviilllll brew, one tallie and my eyes are warm...
but i used a can of Morgans Caramalt blend instead of the LDME.


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## Bribie G (27/3/09)

WarmBeer said:


> Was thinking of experimenting with Danstar Nottingham, as I've heard it will chew through anything before going to sleep.
> 
> I've got some S-04 in the fridge, which turns out easier, but I've found it to be a little lazy in reaching lowish FG. (Have a look through some of my previous posts about the Porter I couldn't get lower than 1030, although no bottle bombs yet!!!)
> 
> Maybe I'll split the difference, and go 20 litres



Go the Notto, forget the S-04. I've used both and the Notto is the rottweiler of yeasts. My toucan plus 2 kilo brew was in the bottle within 2 weeks and was quite drinkable four weeks later. It was supposed to by my Christmas brew but only lasted to early December... Fatgodzilla got my third last bottle


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## pdilley (27/3/09)

I'm bottling a Tooheys Draught with Dark Liquid Malt Extract tomorrow.

I have the Dark Ale going in the primary next with a tin of Light Liquid Malt Extract.


My Yeast so far has be S-04 so don't kick me BribieG  Not sure if my LHBS has Notto, might have to drive to the other side of the city to the other one for a look.


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## Bribie G (27/3/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> I'm bottling a Tooheys Draught with Dark Liquid Malt Extract tomorrow.
> 
> I have the Dark Ale going in the primary next with a tin of Light Liquid Malt Extract.
> 
> ...



S-04 is great, and IMHO gives more fruity and complex beers, especially the dark ones. It's just that you can't go past Nottingham the Rottweiler for the "skitch em, boy.... kill, attack, maim, harm.... " factor


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## RdeVjun (27/3/09)

Great discussion, thanks all for these tips- this is a happy coincedence and I'm glad this topic is getting a run at about the right time with the prospect of a chilly winter on the horizon.

This is getting a bit OT, but BribieG, I've got a toucan with one each of Coopers Stout and Draught (an old bin 05 and the main reason for toucaning) now in secondary, seems ok-ish so far, and its on S-04, but now I'm seriously wondering about Notto. Could you just elaborate a bit on the "skitch 'em" etc factors? And I'm not taking the p*ss at all- I really do want to know what this could've been with it instead and now that my very first consignment of Notto has just been retrieved from the courier's depot (I didn't want it spending all weekend in their hot tin shed), I'm tempted to do another with it in the driver's seat.

In the first I put 0.3kg LDME and 0.1kg steeped roast barley and also some 5 minute Cascade in to make it a bit interesting (based on an American recipe), could turn out nasty, but, what the heck! From samples so far it seems allright and if the Notto is a better or different angle, perhaps I'll do another toucan.

Edit: BTW, in the same consignment were some dark malts, Baird's Crystal Dark and Chocolate, Weyermann Carared, Caraaroma and Carafa T1, plus I still have some Roasted Barley and various liquid malt extracts. I wasn't specifically thinking of adding them to the toucans but if you think its worth a whirl, I'll happily listen to suggestions to throw a bit in. Oh, and ditto with packs of Saphire, Fuggles and Northern Brewer.


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## mwd (27/3/09)

Did a Toucan of Morgans Molloy Stout and Coopers Dark with about 450g of CSR dark treacle + 500g DME. No extra hops.

Turned out quite a winter warmer with a slight but not overpowering molasses flavour works well with the burnt malt tastes.

Very nice in small quantities but a bit powerful alcohol and flavourwise for a session beer.


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## Bribie G (27/3/09)

RdeVyun.... you wouldn't happen to be Dutch with that username would you? :huh: Anyway the thing about Notto is that it can, according to some people on the forum, strip out hop additions and ferment out at a low final gravity. The reason that I use Notto is that it can make a very convincing fake lager at 15 degrees because it can ferment very clean.

Now the thing about doing toucans with older stock is that Notto could probably work with you to strip out some of the unwanted flavours and clean the brew up a bit. Maybe try it and see.


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## sav (27/3/09)

I did a stout for sh#$s and giggles it was,1 can coopers stout,2kg ldme,100gr dark crystal steeped,green bullet hops ,nottingham yeast,23lt,It was a head banger ,the malt mellowed the bitterness, with a bit of aroma,My dad give the last bottle to his mate the other day,he put pepper on it and said it was the best stout hes tried,dont know about the pepper but it was nice but it had the twang.


I think a two can dark ale with ldme would be nice with nottingham yeast.


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## RdeVjun (28/3/09)

BribieG said:


> RdeVyun.... you wouldn't happen to be Dutch with that username would you? :huh: Anyway the thing about Notto is that it can, according to some people on the forum, strip out hop additions and ferment out at a low final gravity. The reason that I use Notto is that it can make a very convincing fake lager at 15 degrees because it can ferment very clean.
> 
> Now the thing about doing toucans with older stock is that Notto could probably work with you to strip out some of the unwanted flavours and clean the brew up a bit. Maybe try it and see.


Ahh, nope. Nice try though. de V.... is the surname prefix, but we believe its actually French. Anyway, we've got Swedish & English infusions, bit like a mongrel I guess... (BTW, third last letter of my username is a J, actually for "Junior", actually I'm the third generation with same christian name, and surname of course.). Sending PM (sorry everyone, it's personal, between BribieG and I!).

Anyway, thanks BribieG, Notto sounds like the real fixit man. 
Its interesting, the fake lager thing, I did a few in the fridge but gave it away as I wanted i) quicker results (an ale can be a distant, but fond and pleasant memory in the time it can take to lager) and ii) I prefer ales anyway. Could put them back on the list with this stuff at that temp. Good tip- ta very much!


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## mfdu (28/3/09)

WarmBeer said:


> What a co-inky-dink,
> 
> Just scored a tin of Coopers Stout and a tin of Coopers Dark for $5.20 at the Coles. Both tins are Best Before dates of 2010.
> 
> ...



hey B - where is this extra great deal you speak of? did you grab a can of dark ale for me?

(i'll be getting the .5k of PoW in the mail soon time for VB heaven!!)

no, the stout i did recently was (16 liters) 
coopers stout kit, 
500g ldme, 
250g treacle, 

500ml boil :
15g coriander seeds @ 15
10g fuggles @ 5
10g galaxy hops @ 5

s04 to 1 liter starter

mmmmm.


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## Darken (29/3/09)

well ive been thinking about putting on a coopers lager / 3kg ESB special stout using 1kg brown sugar and the esb yeast What does everyone think about this combo? what should i expect from this combo?


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## RdeVjun (31/3/09)

Darken said:


> well ive been thinking about putting on a coopers lager / 3kg ESB special stout using 1kg brown sugar and the esb yeast What does everyone think about this combo? what should i expect from this combo?


Haven't tried that combo, but other correspondents do rave about that particular lager tin as a base in toucans. 
They recommend WLP004 Irish Ale, is that the one you wanted to use though? Or the DCL that the kits seem to come with? (Their website is ambiguous. And badly in need of splelcheckinf.) Never used either, Nottingham is my latest breed under test, used plenty of S-04 and a few other ale yeasts in the past and often found the kit ones wanting.
And the sugar, well sure, in that quantity it'll get you really pissed (that's 4.7kg of goo to start with, then you're adding the sugar), but could taste a bit rugged- it has its place though and, IIRC Guiness (the target with the ESB kit) has a fairly small amount of it as a component? :unsure: I could be mistaken, I may've just seen it in a clone recipe somewhere. I'd be more inclined to just use some steeped roasted barley rather than more sugar, or at least that much of it, and some aroma hops, but the hops would be departing from the style.
See how you go with it, am surprised there haven't been any other responses. Oh well, these forums can be finicky things sometimes, that's the way the cookie crumbles...

Edit: To clarify- Am not suggesting that the Roasted Barley is a substitute for sugar, it contributes very little if anything to the fermentables, particularly in commonly used quantities (usually <200g). I just wouldn't use the 1kg of sugar at all, if it were me I'd just "kit & bits" it with the steeped RB and aroma hops. You could balance it a bit with varying quantities from the toucans and if its too bitter, substitute some of the kit goo with LME. Doing that gets fairly complex pretty quickly though, and is not really in the often rough & ready spirit or standard measures of k&b or k&k (i.e. 1.0, 1.7 or 3.0kg tins- full). Cheers, RdeV.


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