# First Cider



## kjparker (3/6/11)

Hi

I'm going to be putting down my first cider on the weekend if I get a chance.

I have 6l of preservative free apple juice from Aldi, and a 1l tin of goldencircle pear juice. I might get another apple and another pear to make a 12l batch.

My wife enjoys a sweet cider, whats the best way to make sure that it doesnt dry out too much? I'd still like it to have a bit of a kick though

I have a coopers ale yeast that I was planning on using for this, is there any reason I shouldnt?

What temps should I have it fermenting at?


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

clueless said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm going to be putting down my first cider on the weekend if I get a chance.
> 
> ...



Look up the yeast on the net... it will have optimum operating temps.. but cooler is generally better.
Pear contains non-fermentable sugar, so it's likely it will be sweeter because of that.
other than that you can find out the tolerance, I'm guessing <11% of your yeast, and try to get a high enough OG to have residual sugars... not easy without adding sugar or honey. Adding sugar will reduce the flavour of the apples considerably.
If you want it carbonated, then it pretty much has to be dry - especially if you're inexperienced, which is where the pear juice will help with sweetness.
If you want it still, you can whack it in the fridge to slow the yeasties, then sulphate and sorbate the batch to kill and stop them breeding.
Otherwise you can ferment it dry, sulphate and sorbate then add sugars back to backsweeten. ie add sweet apple/pearjuice.


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## kjparker (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Look up the yeast on the net... it will have optimum operating temps.. but cooler is generally better.
> Pear contains non-fermentable sugar, so it's likely it will be sweeter because of that.
> other than that you can find out the tolerance, I'm guessing <11% of your yeast, and try to get a high enough OG to have residual sugars... not easy without adding sugar or honey. Adding sugar will reduce the flavour of the apples considerably.
> If you want it carbonated, then it pretty much has to be dry - especially if you're inexperienced, which is where the pear juice will help with sweetness.
> ...




Thanks for the input, it's a coopers kit yeast, so who knows... 17deg seems to be the minimum suggested on forums, so I'll go with that.

I'll add more pear to try and make it sweeter. Thanks for the input.


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

I too was thinking about trying a sweet cider for the lady so I looked into it a few weeks ago. It seems that if bottling, sweet cider is a bit difficult since the sugars in the juices that you're fermenting are close to 100% fermentable - so the yeast keeps going until the cider is dry.

If kegging, it's easier to control this because you can choose when to finish the ferment (while some sugars are left unfermented), filter the yeast and use the CO2 gas to carbonate the cider.

People have work arounds wih this issue, like killing the yeast with something (Sulphites maybe - I've forgotten) or adding artificial sweeteners but I didn't come across anyone who seemed particularly stoked with their results from these methods.

But you'll never know until you give it a crack! - good luck.


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## kjparker (3/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> I too was thinking about trying a sweet cider for the lady so I looked into it a few weeks ago. It seems that if bottling, sweet cider is a bit difficult since the sugars in the juices that you're fermenting are close to 100% fermentable - so the yeast keeps going until the cider is dry.
> 
> If kegging, it's easier to control this because you can choose when to finish the ferment (while some sugars are left unfermented), filter the yeast and use the CO2 gas to carbonate the cider.
> 
> ...



I'd like to avoid sulphites if I can, as well as artificial sweeteners. 

I'll just get a couple more liters of pear juice. Maybe add some dextrose to raise the starting gravity. Thoughts?


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

clueless said:


> I'd like to avoid sulphites if I can, as well as artificial sweeteners.
> 
> I'll just get a couple more liters of pear juice. Maybe add some dextrose to raise the starting gravity. Thoughts?


Yeah, it sounds like many people do try and avoid those.

I would have thought that you'd be better off raising the starting grav with stuff that's not basically 100% fermentable. I think all the dextrose will do is create more alcohol, rather than sweeten the brew. Maybe some maltodextrin or maybe even some lactose instead?

I've never used either of those so I can't comment on how much to use or even if it's a good idea - hopefully someone else who has used these in the past can provide more advice. KudaPucat reckons that pear juice isn't as fermentable as the apple so I'd definately bump the pear ratio up at least.


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## kjparker (3/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Yeah, it sounds like many people do try and avoid those.
> 
> I would have thought that you'd be better off raising the starting grav with stuff that's not basically 100% fermentable. I think all the dextrose will do is create more alcohol, rather than sweeten the brew. Maybe some maltodextrin or maybe even some lactose instead?
> 
> I've never used either of those so I can't comment on how much to use or even if it's a good idea - hopefully someone else who has used these in the past can provide more advice. KudaPucat reckons that pear juice isn't as fermentable as the apple so I'd definately bump the pear ratio up at least.




In a cider for the lovely wife, a higher alcohol could be a good thing! 

My thinking was that if I raise the alcohol level, it will get to a point where it cant process any more sugar, leaving a slightly sweeter result....


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

clueless said:


> I'd like to avoid sulphites if I can, as well as artificial sweeteners.
> 
> I'll just get a couple more liters of pear juice. Maybe add some dextrose to raise the starting gravity. Thoughts?



I agree... but that means a dry cidre unless you want to risk exploding bottles.
Dextrose will sweeten also.
I would make it natural first - (lack of sulphites and sorbate - suggests a level of hippiness that should make natural appealing)
I like to keep all the extras out too, including dextrose etc... nothing I can't grow make or buy from the supermarket ;-)

If you make it natural you may like it
Either way it will give you a feel for what you need to do to move it into you taste range.
My first rule is always - if you don't know... keep it simple, then make a simple change next time, and continue this way on the long path to being an expert.
Also if it's dry and flavourless, sit on it for a year. You'll be amazed by the difference.
After 2.5 years if it's still not good, find a mate with a still.

If it's too dry for you try more pear, try adding dextrose, try filtering, try pasteurising.
Be aware. A filter fine enough to extract yeasties is going to extract a lot of volatiles and aroma too. Pasteurising will also boil off a lot of those same volatiles.

Pretty much, anything but 'letting it come the way it comes' is a challenge and requires more experience than I have.
That's why I'm playing with mead too, the high OG allows you to play with sweetness without cold crashing, filtering, sorbating, sulphiting, pasteurising etc.


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

clueless said:


> In a cider for the lovely wife, a higher alcohol could be a good thing!
> 
> My thinking was that if I raise the alcohol level, it will get to a point where it cant process any more sugar, leaving a slightly sweeter result....


I've never gone crazy on the alcohol levels but I would imagine the yeasties would keep chewing trough it until the amount of alcohol became toxic and killed them all off! I guess if you want to produce something around 11%-12% (depends on the yeast) then you might kill the yeast off and get bit of sweetness haha.

Would be like apple and pear wine though!


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

clueless said:


> In a cider for the lovely wife, a higher alcohol could be a good thing!
> 
> My thinking was that if I raise the alcohol level, it will get to a point where it cant process any more sugar, leaving a slightly sweeter result....



Then after this, try a cyser... much higher ABV, 12 - 18%

Dextrose is not usually fermentable, I don't think. But I've never tried it.


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> I've never gone crazy on the alcohol levels but I would imagine the yeasties would keep chewing trough it until the amount of alcohol became toxic and killed them all off! I guess if you want to produce something around 11%-12% (depends on the yeast) then you might kill the yeast off and get bit of sweetness haha.
> 
> Would be like apple and pear wine though!



Yes it would be wine (or cyser if you use honey to boost it). To carbonate you'd need to force carb it. If the yeast die off, there's no natural fizzyness available by the time it clears.


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## mkstalen (3/6/11)

You can add artifical sweetners to your liking, ie Equal. When I did my Cider I used a natural non-fermenting sweetner called Stevia. Just stick as much of it as you want into a cup of boiling water and add to your juice.

I wouldn't use the Coopers yeast, my opinion is it would impart too much of a yeasty profile to your cider (think Coopers Pale Ale) which is probably not what you want. I'd go with US05, ferment it out at about 18deg and crash chill for a week then bottle.

Good luck.


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Dextrose is not usually fermentable, I don't think. But I've never tried it.


Dextrose is _very _fermentable.


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Dextrose is _very _fermentable.


Oh :-(
perhaps I was thinking of lactose... There are sugars that can be added that usually aren't fermentable, but I'm clearly not an expert on such things. I do know some of them are found in pear, but to what level I don't know.

Edit: Google says Dextrose is Corn-sugar... yes VERY fermentable!!!!!!

Google also says Maltodextrine and Lactose are indeed non-fermentable.
Watch out for malo-lactic fermentation - rare by accident, but it can eat non-fermentables.

Edit Again: This link talks of pears and perry, and that pears contain sorbitol - a non-fermentable sugar. Perry pears contain more of it than common pears.
I do not know the proportions though.


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## tones0606 (3/6/11)

Try not to comment on things you know nothing about

Dextrose is 100% fermentable



KudaPucat said:


> Then after this, try a cyser... much higher ABV, 12 - 18%
> 
> Dextrose is not usually fermentable, I don't think. But I've never tried it.


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## mkstalen (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Dextrose is not usually fermentable, I don't think. But I've never tried it.



Don't add dextrose as a sweetner.

Dextrose is 100% fermentable. That's why people use it as the 'kilo' in a "kit & kilo"


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

Alright... I get it. I was wrong. I did retract the statement... calm down guys, sucrose, glucose, dextrose, lactose I just got a little confused. I did mention I'd never used it.



stienberg said:


> You can add artifical sweetners to your liking, ie Equal. When I did my Cider I used a natural non-fermenting sweetner called Stevia. Just stick as much of it as you want into a cup of boiling water and add to your juice.



Stevia is a great naturally occuring sweet plant, but is hard to grow in Melbourne. We have a plant, but there's no chance of ever getting a harvest from it.
I'm trying to get the father in law to greenhouse it, but to no success atm.


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## The Giant (3/6/11)

Lactose my friend, that is if you wife isnt lactose intolerant

I made a cider before just using some coopers kit yeast, it was 100% apple and pear juice preservative free.

Og was 1050
Fg was 1000  so was very dry, was really nice with a splash of lemonade but I dont want to do this for the next one.

Found a few recipes on here and people recommended about 500g of lactose, this was for a 15-20l batch i think.

I got that from Craftbrewer and also a specific cider yeast, so as soon as the 2 beers get out of my fermenter and into some kegs I will be putting it down.


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## kjparker (3/6/11)

The Giant said:


> Lactose my friend, that is if you wife isnt lactose intolerant
> 
> I made a cider before just using some coopers kit yeast, it was 100% apple and pear juice preservative free.
> 
> ...



I'll look into the lactose, I dont think she is intolerant, no trouble with milk or other dairy.....

I might do a small batch to start, 2 liters apple, the can of pear juice, and see how it comes out.



Thanks for the advice guys, I'll let you know how it comes out!


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## mkstalen (3/6/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Alright... I get it. I was wrong. I did retract the statement... calm down guys, sucrose, glucose, dextrose, lactose I just got a little confused. I did mention I'd never used it.


I don't think we all meant to jump down your throat, just that we were all reading and responding at the same time.

Most of the different adjuncts and their fermentability can be found here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php...ntable_adjuncts

To the OP - Looking at that list you could also give Honey or Maple Syrup a go...



KudaPucat said:


> Stevia is a great naturally occuring sweet plant, but is hard to grow in Melbourne. We have a plant, but there's no chance of ever getting a harvest from it.
> I'm trying to get the father in law to greenhouse it, but to no success atm.


I just bought it at the supermarket in little sachets, 1 sachet eq to 2 tsp of sugar in sweetness. Found in the same place as the artifical sweetners.


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

clueless said:


> I'll look into the lactose, I dont think she is intolerant, no trouble with milk or other dairy.....
> 
> I might do a small batch to start, 2 liters apple, the can of pear juice, and see how it comes out.
> 
> ...


Not a bad idea on the small batches.

After a bit more checking online it appears that Maltodextrin is better used for adding body rather than sweetness and lactose will add sweetness (and body). So I'd be inclined to try some lactose in the cider.


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## kjparker (3/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Not a bad idea on the small batches.
> 
> After a bit more checking online it appears that Maltodextrin is better used for adding body rather than sweetness and lactose will add sweetness (and body). So I'd be inclined to try some lactose in the cider.



I have a small 5 litre barrel, but it doesnt have a tap hole, so I'll need to either syphon out of it, or fit one....


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## The Giant (3/6/11)

Just do it in the juice bottle

I did that with a few test batches, pour a bit out of a 3l bottle sprinkle the yeast in, put the cap back on and put a little hole in it and cover with glad wrap

That way u can easily cold condition it when ur done which will really settle the yeast on the bottom and pour it out very slowly into a 2nd container and bottle from there


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## kjparker (3/6/11)

I dont have a 3l bottle though, I already have the 5l barrel! 

I am leaning towards wanting to put a tap on it anyway, so will see how I go, I will see what I can cobble together!


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## KudaPucat (3/6/11)

Honey's the way to go... I'm yet to hear a raving report on maple syrup... well perhaps one. Maybe cos it seems to cost more than honey, and I have NFI where you'd get it in bulk...



stienberg said:


> <snip>
> 
> I just bought it at the supermarket in little sachets, 1 sachet eq to 2 tsp of sugar in sweetness. Found in the same place as the artifical sweetners.



That give me the shits... as it's not artificial, but will be treated that way. :-(


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## [email protected] (4/6/11)

in my cirst cider, i used 500g of lactose...... was told by the gent in my LHBS that its a non fermentable suger.. just what i wanted! i made the strongbow clone, and it has almost the exact same taste!


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## pk.sax (14/6/11)

Bn a long time here...

2 really simple and natural ways to get a sweet cider:

Pour some fresh juice into the glass and add cider on top before drinking... Voila 

Ferment in bottle, move the bottle to door of fridge after a week. Door is usually slightly less cold, so fermentation carries on, but very slowly. Perfect if you plan to consume the cider in a week, fresh + gets carbonated every day a long as you don't open it every few hours  not extremely fizzy though - moderate carb
Oh, n don't poke the lid of that juice bottle, just remember to release a bit of pressure every day while in primary, ferment in cool dark cupboard to keep the ferment rate manageable.


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## dingo34 (1/7/11)

practicalfool said:


> Bn a long time here...
> 
> 2 really simple and natural ways to get a sweet cider:
> 
> ...



What would you say the average temp is when your doing the first stage of fermentation? I'm trying to gauge how long I should wait before putting my bottles in the fridge, as I have mine on a heatpad.

cheers


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## Airgead (1/7/11)

dingo34 said:


> What would you say the average temp is when your doing the first stage of fermentation? I'm trying to gauge how long I should wait before putting my bottles in the fridge, as I have mine on a heatpad.
> 
> cheers



Does the heat pad have a thermostat? If not then you will be up in the high 20s at least which is hotter than most yeast like. They will go like the clappers but produce a bunch of nasty flavours while doing it.

I ferment my ciders at between 16 and 18c but I'm using a specialist cider yeast. Most ale yeats work best in the high teens or very low 20s. Wine yeasts are a bit more forgiving but even there I wouldn't push them past 25 or so.

Cheers
Dave


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