# Blood everywhere .. The bottle went BANG



## Grainer (8/2/14)

Hate bottles ... Was 30 cm away from it when it exploded.. Now in Emergency waiting to get stitches!!!


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

Was it friendly fire (one of yours)


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## Darren Hayes (8/2/14)

Lucky stars its stitches and not an eye. Good luck and enjoy the air con at the hospital.. miserable dry 40deg here outside Melb.


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## Grainer (8/2/14)

It was a UBrewit bottle from a party .. I heard an explosion and went out to look and BANG it got me while I was looking into the storage bucket.. Pissed off as there are 6 months old and are starting to explode all the time...


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## Snowdog (8/2/14)

Shrapnel grenades!


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## Martrix (8/2/14)

I'm guessing it wasn't stored below 5°


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## going down a hill (8/2/14)

What was the finishing gravity? Too soon?

But seriously, that's pretty crap, glad it didn't do any serious harm.

edit: phone spelling


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## Camo6 (8/2/14)

Jeesus mate. Hope it missed all your vitals. Good reason to buy even more kegs!


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## OzPaleAle (8/2/14)

Glad your ok'ish, Almost had the same thing happen last week, hot garage, heard a bang in the garage went to investigate, realised what it was and turned to find a cloth to put over them to catch the glass if any more went and BANG, nice glass shower…….


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

Plenty of blood sports not many blood hobbies, you are lucky, but I had some from a ubrewit everyone,5 slabs every one a gusher.


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## Midnight Brew (8/2/14)

Looks like you have already swapped to PET. Hope it avoided the brutal areas.


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## indica86 (8/2/14)

Ouch, glad you appear to be okay..



> Step 5: Storage
> After you get your beer home from U-Brew It, it needs to be *kept cold in a fridge* to avoid any re-fermentation should any yeast get through the filtration system. Because at U-Brew It, we do not add any chemicals or preservatives to guard against re-fermentation. This is a safe guard to protect your beer.


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## law-of-ohms (8/2/14)

DIY injury with a difference.

I've only had one bottle go boom out of over 600 bottles. it was in the heat wave in Jan.


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## Grainer (8/2/14)

indica86 said:


> Ouch, glad you appear to be okay..


WTF .. Just ferment them properly!!


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## Edak (8/2/14)

Holy crap. Bad luck that. Shame on ubrewit for bottling risky bottles. Get better mate.


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## SmallFry (8/2/14)

Hope it wasn't your IPA?

I've put it in the fridge, regardless...


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## Grainer (8/2/14)

SmallFry said:


> Hope it wasn't your IPA?
> 
> I've put it in the fridge, regardless...


Nah mate ... Crap beer from ubrewit.... NEVER AGAIN... They lost my business permanently !!!


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

One question don't they filter the beer and it is force carbonated?


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## mxd (8/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> One question don't they filter the beer and it is force carbonated?


yep, they also tell you to store in a fridge as the "bottle" when it's at the appropriate gravity


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## iambj (8/2/14)

I hope all is well mate, my mum used to say "it won't hurt after the pain's gone".

It never made me feel any better but that's how it was.


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## DoctorBob (8/2/14)

*Glad you are ok ...close call..could have lost an eye.\*

*I am a bit paranoid about bottle bombs, so use kegs mainly, but when I do my big beers and bottle (annual Robust porter / big begian etc) I bottle condition in a wooden cabinet for a week ($5 jobbie ..used to be an old paint store in a garage), then hold them in a chest freezer converted to a fridge till i drink. Cairns is always warm and I have found especially with bigger beers if you leave the bottles warm for a few months the fermentation can continue slowly and pressure build. Only had one blow in 5 years but f*** i was in bed at the other end of the house and it sounded like a gunshot...scary*

*get well soon!*


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

So it is likely that Grainer's wounds are claimable on the insurance that the ubrew has to cover injuries sustained from the likelihood of negligence on their part, as long as Grainer followed the storage requisite laid out by the company.


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## carniebrew (8/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> One question don't they filter the beer and it is force carbonated?


As I recall, they don't filter the beer, and it's force carbonated on its way into the bottle. They direct you to store them ALL in the fridge, I've had a few mates try and put them in a 'cool spot' like under the house in winter, and they've still eventually all popped their tops. My guess is, and it IS a guess, they don't worry at all about FG, just a week or so in the fermentation room, then over to the cold room until you come back to bottle.

You just fill your bottles from a tap, so I think it's not much different to a growler fill in terms of longevity. Keep 'em cold and drink 'em quick, or don't use UBrewIT....


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## Yob (8/2/14)

Ubrew can ******* ushoveit.. What the he'll does that even mean? It may or may not be finished.

Hope you are armoured up to dispose of the rest of them mate, glad it wasn't too serious.


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## Edak (8/2/14)

You could summarise this thread with an emoticon :beerbang: beer bang


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## Edak (8/2/14)

Or perhaps UBlewIt...  

Man i am on fire, perhaps too many beers for me?


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## Bridges (8/2/14)

That's total crap from ubrew. Most food places don't like giving doggy bags as if it's not handled correctly, and someone gets crook they can be sued . How is this any different. What they don't own a hydrometer?


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

Could be a wig and gown job, best say no more.
Except I want 20% to verify they were stored according to instructions.


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## Black Devil Dog (8/2/14)

That's not acceptable at all, they need to be made aware of what's happened and a strongly worded letter from your legal advisor should be going their way.

Good to see you can at least smile and hopefully you won't suffer any ongoing issues.


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## indica86 (8/2/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> That's not acceptable at all, they need to be made aware of what's happened and a strongly worded letter from your legal advisor should be going their way.
> 
> Good to see you can at least smile and hopefully you won't suffer any ongoing issues.


Not when they say all bottles need fridge storage.
Shit place, shit system.


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## Liam_snorkel (8/2/14)

Grainer said:


> Nah mate ... Crap beer from ubrewit.... NEVER AGAIN... They lost my business permanently !!!


Sue the pricks. Do they have a Facebook page? Post the photo. Explain why they are negligent c**ts


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## indica86 (8/2/14)

Liam, thier instructions are to store the beer in the fridge incase there is any yeast left. What do you propose they are sued for?>


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## Yob (8/2/14)

Yeast won't cause the bottles to explode on their own though, bottling before complete ferment will, they have a duty of care to ensure this doesn't happen, a statement about yeast and filters doesn't cut it.


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## indica86 (8/2/14)

True that. Give it a go and let us all know.


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

indica86 said:


> Liam, thier instructions are to store the beer in the fridge incase there is any yeast left. What do you propose they are sued for?>


Indica mate he should sue for whatever he can get providing instructions for storage were followed.


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## dammag (8/2/14)

When I was bottling this morning I thought "screw it, I won't bother with a FG reading", then I thought, "I have to have a FG reading in case anything went wrong in the process and the beer is still above expected FG and could cause problems down the track".

Now, I am an amateur brewer and am likely to injure no one but myself if something should go wrong but I am not prepared to take the chance. Why would a "professional" outfit take chances like this, especially when they know that the average guy isn't going to store large amounts of beer at fridge temp.


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

One answer is money, where money is concerned short cuts are taken. In saying that I will be the first to say,"I never doubted ye" should the storage have been inappropriate.


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## dammag (8/2/14)

* Double post. Internet dropped out.


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## thedragon (8/2/14)

Shit. Glad you're ok. We'll kinda ok.


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## carniebrew (8/2/14)

Actually it looks like they do filter, this is taken from their "process page":



> *Step 5: Storage*
> After you get your beer home from U-Brew It, it needs to be kept cold in a fridge to avoid any re-fermentation should any yeast get through the filtration system. Because at U-Brew It, we do not add any chemicals or preservatives to guard against re-fermentation. This is a safe guard to protect your beer.


It's obvious yeast does get through, and I've heard so many stories of popped bottles it's clear they're bottling before FG is reached.

I remember they use plastic bag inserts in their fermenters, so that would be one reason they can't (easily) and therefore don't test gravity with a hydrometer to work out if fermentation is complete. The FV's don't have taps anyway.

I'm not sure a simple mention about refrigeration as above is enough to protect themselves from any liability if/when they pop. They could at least add, in a big bold colour/font, that not following their instructions regarding temp could lead to exploding bottles and possible injury.


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## Yob (8/2/14)

Or bottle in PET...


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## Kieren (8/2/14)

Back to those Xmas lotto beers then?


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## wide eyed and legless (8/2/14)

Being Grainer has photographic evidence, I am sure that he would be successful in any claim that he wishes to make, if I was his brief I would be advising time off for injuries received.
Bearing in mind that the company involved has public liability insurance as by law they will have to have


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## Liam_snorkel (8/2/14)

indica86 said:


> Liam, thier instructions are to store the beer in the fridge incase there is any yeast left. What do you propose they are sued for?>


Look man, the worst one should expect is an overcarbed beer like a Murray's, not a bottle bomb. Infection withstanding, the ONLY time a bottle might explode is by bottling beer which is only partially fermented. **** these people. What other product could you sell with the caveat: "better keep it chilled because we're lazy ***** and it might explode and slice your face apart" name one other product which does this.


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## pk.sax (8/2/14)

Double cheeseburger combo with jumbo fries and jumbo coke. This isn't what you are meant to eat as a diet since overeating this can make you sick and a couch bum with a super sized ass. But we can't be stuffed making sure you don't order this 3 times a day.

Seriously, corporate pigs will cut every penny they can to squeeze the lemon one more time.


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## technobabble66 (9/2/14)

Wow, dude.
That's some serious damage!!
Glad you're kinda ok-ish; and you didn't lose an eye or testicle (you'd have to arm wrestle Manticle for his moniker then...)!
Commiserations.
I'd def contact UbrewIt, even if it's just to let them know they're (potentially) putting dangerous products out there. The next person might not be so "lucky"...
Hope you recover soon!


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## Grainer (9/2/14)

Thanks guys i will talk to huntingdale ubrewit next week


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## wide eyed and legless (9/2/14)

That's where I got the gushers from Barleycorn Brewers, prior to that the only gusher I had known was
Su Yun Kim from South Korea. (nothing to do with beer)


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## Mr. No-Tip (9/2/14)

Ubrewit sending punters home with under attenuated beers? Who'd a thunk it?


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## dibby33 (9/2/14)

Sounds well dodgy. Glad you did not lose an eye. Blood loss and scars are good conversion though 

And yes, contact them. I would be turning up with that photo printed on my tshirt!


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## Greg.L (9/2/14)

In my opinion you really should be able to taste if there is fermentable sugar left in beer. If there is enough to cause bottle bombs it should be enough to detect by taste. If you're not sure you should set up some trials where you add small amounts of sugar to some finished homebrew. One reason to taste your brew regularly as it ferments is to be able to recognise the effect the level os sugar has on the taste as it ferments away. You need to be able to analyse a brew so you can tell if there is risk of bottle bombs. If you can detect a slight sweetness you know to be careful.


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## Yob (9/2/14)

Put that in an email to Ubrewit.. 

I'm sure they have disclaimers out the wazoo, do you have to sign right away with them?


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## 2much2spend (9/2/14)

Yeah ubrewit are not Brewers at all I stopped going to the one near me cause or a bad diacyatil in one batch. He said to me if o want it quicker he will put this schaet in and I could have it a week earlier. Was just s#@t. They do fine and filter also add a head retainer too. 

Unfortunately they are a business first. 

However I hope it was just blood and stitches not anything permanent.


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## pedleyr (9/2/14)

Yob said:


> Put that in an email to Ubrewit..
> 
> I'm sure they have disclaimers out the wazoo, do you have to sign right away with them?


You can't disclaim liability for negligence (if there has been negligence here), so whatever was signed won't impact their duty of care. The difficulty is them telling Grainer to store the bottles in the fridge - that may well be enough to ad least reduce their exposure here (legally). 

Legalities aside it's poor form from them, I'd definitely be taking it up with them.


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## Grainer (9/2/14)

No they did not tell us to store them in the fridge and there was no disclosure....


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## philmud (9/2/14)

I'd contact them and see how they respond. Tell them you're considering legal action but wanted to give them the opportunity to respond first. It's not good enough - the beer was either under-attenuated, or over-carbed (likely the former). Imagine if you had a kid in there, or you lost an eye? They'd be fucked. I'm not advocating this idea, but you could also tell them you're considering contacting the media.


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## philmud (9/2/14)

Double post, sorry


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## Mardoo (9/2/14)

Wow Grainer, that totally sucks. Glad you're not irreparably damaged. 

Five or six 18 year-olds losing an eye or getting enough stitches and this is the kind of shit that will lead to legislation banning sales of bottle conditioned beers. It won't matter that they don't actually bottle condition. 

This is a massive liability for UBrewIt. They need to get their shit together. This is totally irresponsible to their customers. And it's also totally irresponsible to the brewing community, especially just as craft brew is getting some serious steam.

I'd say get the Herald Sun involved but UBrewIt should have a chance to correct their practices before the media shits all over their business.

I'm writing a letter to UBrewIt for sure.


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## DU99 (9/2/14)

:icon_offtopic: the brew barn you can keg your beer.


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/2/14)

Id say keep tge media well away....god knows what sort of things could go down if they get involved.


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## 2much2spend (9/2/14)




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## 2much2spend (9/2/14)

From my experience what they say about the beer is that " it has no preservatives" so that's why it needs to be in the fridge.

I would talk to them, you might get a free brew! They don't want this to happen everyone who uses their equipment.


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## GalBrew (9/2/14)

There is every chance they had some form of infection. UBrewIt stuff usually lasts if stored cold, but on the occasions I have used them anything stored at room temp is super fizzy, tastes like a wild yeast infection and gushes like you would not believe.


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## Grainer (9/2/14)

HOLY SHIAT BATMAN !! 4 more bottles just exploded (white bucket with lid .. just happened now).one just went off while writing this post. I can hear them going off !!! I am staying the hell away.. They are BOMBS !!! lucky 10 mins prior i transferred them to a sealed box to protect myself from them.... lucky they did not explode while I was transferring them..

The black box was in the shed for a few days and collected a lot of brew...I threw in a bag of ice to do the transfer to try make it a bit safer..

MEDICAL UPDATE: 3 internal stitches and 4 external stitches.. The glass penetrated throughout he skin, fat layers and down into the muscle..hurts like a biatch !! The doc reacons I'm scarred for life..!!!It was so loud, at first I thought I lost hearing in one ear.. it was like a gun shot in my ear...


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## OzPaleAle (9/2/14)

Maybe fill the esky with water, hopefully it will catch some of the glass if they do pop and cool them down.
When mine went i filled the bucket they were in with water and popped the cap on each underwater, brew was cactus anyway so wasn't worried about sacrificing them to save more glass cleaning.


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## going down a hill (9/2/14)

it's negligence on their part. It can still slowly ferment in the fridge if its under attenuated, so if left for long enough in a fridge it could still possibly go boom. I bulk primed a brew that was already cold conditioning and the fv had swollen a few weeks later. Poor practice and not a good business model at all


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## 2much2spend (9/2/14)

Riot gear or a motorbike helmet with leathers is needed here!


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## jyo (9/2/14)

That sucks, mate, but glad it's not your face/eyes. Put the lid back on that box, wrap it tight in a couple of old doonas and shake the shit out it until they all explode. That is dangerous.


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## indica86 (9/2/14)

Take it back.


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## mje1980 (9/2/14)

I just had a batch if bombs for the first time in possibly 10 years. Stable fg at 1.002 ( saison yeast oh yeah! ). Bottled and a few weeks later I heard one go. Wrap around safety glasses and riggers gloves and chilled them all and dumped. Even cold they were highly pressurised. 

I never, ever trust bottled beer, and I'm very cautious. I think this got infected somehow, or I over carbed, though as I said, I'm very cautious with priming sugar etc. 

Lucky you're ok mate, could have been much worse. Show those pics, especially the bloody ones, and the crates full of glass and beer to them.


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## idzy (9/2/14)

Far out! Just saw this! Glad you are okay John.


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## indica86 (9/2/14)

Grainer said:


> MEDICAL UPDATE: 3 internal stitches and 4 external stitches.. The glass penetrated throughout he skin, fat layers and down into the muscle..hurts like a biatch !! The doc reacons I'm scarred for life..!!!It was so loud, at first I thought I lost hearing in one ear.. it was like a gun shot in my ear...


Wow. Someone can be killed with this shit. Imagine if it was a little kid?


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## maxim0200 (9/2/14)

Bugger me! Where did you get hit? I was extremely lucky with my gash between my eyes.

plastic tubs are the best place to store the bottle bombs, next best is a milk crate with an old towel over it.


I can say is welcome to the glass bottle bomb club! (not that thats anything to be proud of...)


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## pcmfisher (10/2/14)

I suspect they over carb the beer to compensate for what you lose when you dribble it into the bottles from an ordinary tap.
Maybe this batch was a little bit too over carbed to start off with, and when it got warm , kapow.


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## barls (10/2/14)

Or possibly had Brett or similar bacteria in the air when bottling or the bottles weren't clean and sanitized before hand. Could be any number of reason why they are over carbed


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## Spiesy (10/2/14)

As others have said, damn lucky your face didn't cop that, Grainer.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/2/14)

Hey Grainer, I will bet you that he will offer you a voucher for you to go and brew another batch, keep focused it's the insurance company making a payout not him, claim for trauma (don't let on its the trauma of loosing the beer)you should also claim for the rare Gerry and the Pacemakers records that some bastard nicked while you were at the hospital getting stitched up. Good thinking about including the wheel chair photo that's worth a few more dollars.


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## Grainer (10/2/14)

Missed them today..will write a letter as well... see them tomorrow


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## Grainer (12/2/14)

Huntingdale ubrewit don't seem to care and have not responded in 2 days they just say I should have kept them in a fridge ..so I will be contacting a solicitor for advice... See what happens


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## wide eyed and legless (12/2/14)

Did he not even offer you a voucher? Though I suppose if he had that would go towards being an admission of guilt.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/2/14)

Yeah he wil say " did you keep it in the fridge". Its going to be up to you to prove you did.

Talk to a solicitor......but steer clear of this guy


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## philmud (12/2/14)

I wouldn't think it'd matter much whether or not you kept it refrigerated. A company like that should only send people home with idiot-proof products (not calling you an idiot Grainer). Unless you signed a fairly specific disclaimer, or they tattooed a detailed warning on your forehead, you had a reasonable expectation that they'd attenuate the beer properly, and not send you home with explosives. I'd get onto a solicitor specializing in public liability stuff, maybe Shine lawyers or Slater and Gordon - they have a touch of Saul Goodman about them but this stuff is their bread and butter. You could subpoena some forum members to tell the judge what happens when you bottle under-attenuated beer!


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## wide eyed and legless (12/2/14)

Stay away from no win no charge, I went with them to mediation against QBE before we went in my solicitor was telling me to back off and accept $2000, saying if we get that we will be lucky.
Went before the mediator, the mediator and my brief never said a word, I argued my case against the QBE solicitor and they agreed to pay me $21,600.
The solicitors supposedly acting on my behalf then put out their hands for 20%, I paid them 10% and told them they were lucky to be getting that.
Small claims would also be one way to go but I think you would be only able to claim out of pocket expenses.


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## philmud (12/2/14)

To be fair, that's one experience. All I mean is don't necessarily go with the guy who did your conveyancing.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/2/14)

Um...dont know how an AHB member would go in court. They would not be considered expert and could be regarded as hearsay evidence and they may not be viewed as expert witnesses ( especially considering you have aired your greivence on this forum, they will view it as collusion ). You are prob going to need someone who has some sort of qualifications in the field. Something that most on here do not have. The defence lawyer will just tear them apart. You can bet your arse the uBrew will vigourously defend, and if they win then expect to pay their costs. It sucks balls but going to court is not just a matter of saying " the bottles blew up and i got hurt and its their fault" They will question you on every little detail about what you did when you first left uBrew with the bottles up untill they blew up. 

Not trying to discourage you, but lawyers are heartless ***** in the court room and will stop at nothing to win. I have been in court and cross examined...its not fun at all.


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## OzPaleAle (12/2/14)

Grainer said:


> Huntingdale ubrewit don't seem to care and have not responded in 2 days they just say I should have kept them in a fridge ..


Speaks volumes about what they think about their customers, the least you would want is "oh I'm really sorry to hear that I hope you are ok", and engage with you further.

Probably then complains how tuff it is for small business's these days…….


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## goomboogo (12/2/14)

Do they keep records of OG and FG?


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## philmud (12/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Um...dont know how an AHB member would go in court. They would not be considered expert and could be regarded as hearsay evidence and they may not be viewed as expert witnesses ( especially considering you have aired your greivence on this forum, they will view it as collusion ). You are prob going to need someone who has some sort of qualifications in the field....You can bet your arse the uBrew will vigourously defend, and if they win then expect to pay their costs.



Yeah, I was being tongue in cheek - of course being a forum member wouldn't qualify someone as an expert witness. 

Also though, I'm not sure they wouldn't try and settle out of court - AFAIK they aren't a multinational and there's a very real chance they'd lose, even if Grainer stored the bottles improperly. Do you think CUB could sell VB if it exploded when not refrigerated?


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## wide eyed and legless (12/2/14)

I doubt it would get into court Stu it would be mediated to an agreement outside court,unless the defendent is either stupid or both, even the small claims is done this way now, taken all the fun out of it.
I have been taken to small claims a number of times ( never lost a case ) but the funny stories I could tell about the antics that some people get up to, everyone a gem.


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## shaunous (12/2/14)

I'd go see a solicitor about it just incase, they charge nothing for the first visit and u can always pull out anyway, make sure u take shitloads of photo's. It don't matter if they say to store the bottles in a fridge, does it state the fridge has to be turned on and under 4*c, even if it does things can grow still at this temperature and cause expansion inside the bottle. They have a 'duty of care', and sending u home with the potential to be harmed and then offer no apology is going against that. 

Personally if they apologised and paid ya medical bill I'd be happy, but since they haven't, Fuk em. They're a franchise aren't they, might be better off contacting head office, not your local small business owner.


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## Mardoo (12/2/14)

Grainer said:


> Huntingdale ubrewit don't seem to care and have not responded in 2 days they just say I should have kept them in a fridge ..so I will be contacting a solicitor for advice... See what happens


Totally shocking. That's fucked and totally irresponsible on their part. Been in customer service a long time (TOO long) and even the worst business I've been in wouldn't say that. Hell, the one I'm in now gave a free case of wine to a guy who got bitten by a spider in a case he bought, even though he wasn't asking for it and it clearly wasn't negligence on our part.

Put the boot in. Lawyer up AND call the Herald Sun.


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## doon (12/2/14)

It's not like micros that bottle condition tell you to keep them cold or they will explode because they have gone through correct processes!


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## MartinOC (12/2/14)

1. Grainer, I hope you're OK & none of your Tatt's got slashed.

2. Legal argument you may want to put to your representative for exploration:

Coopers brewery (& all others that bottle-condition their products) hold their stock after bottling (primed & bottle-conditioned) for a defined time & monitor bottle-pressures before release. This ensures that their product is released for sale in a safe state.

The fact that Ubrewit tells it's customers to keep beers released from their premises in a fridge (did they specify "refrigerated", & if so, at what temperature?) , is because they KNOW that they don't monitor their product & release them too soon (ie. incomplete fermentation, therefore unstable & potentially dangerous) in order to maximise turnover & minimise their own holding-time. By doing so, they seek to place the onus of responsibility for storage of potentially dangerous material in the hands of the customer.

Ergo, they shirked in their duty of care to their customers in order to make a quick profit.

Good luck with it & SCREW THE BASTARDS!!


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## indica86 (12/2/14)

They are not like a micro though, I would think they get around excise by selling you a service and not the product,
CLEARLY the service they provide is questionable at best and they should be held accountable for the complete lack of care.
Go for it and shut these fuckers down.
The u-blew-it in my area sells grain for $8kg.
Top stuff.


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## Darren Hayes (12/2/14)

Mardoo said:


> Totally shocking. That's fucked and totally irresponsible on their part. Been in customer service a long time (TOO long) and even the worst business I've been in wouldn't say that. Hell, the one I'm in now gave a free case of wine to a guy who got bitten by a spider in a case he bought, even though he wasn't asking for it and it clearly wasn't negligence on our part.
> 
> Put the boot in. Lawyer up AND call the Herald Sun.


Herald Sun..Why. Its notoriously a tabloid of here today gone tomorrow stories. Lawyer up... Why, how much, what do you expect to get. Ubrewit is not Coles.
I would suggest a letter to the director detailing the circumstances and request a response. See what happens.


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## Black Devil Dog (12/2/14)

Scenario in the court room.

Lawyer for plaintiff: _"So, Mr Ubrewit, can you explain to the court why these bottles, in your opinion, expolded"_
Ubrewit guy: _"He didn't keep them in the fridge"_ .
Plaintiff: _"Why should he have kept them in the fridge to stop them expolding"?_
Ubrewit:_ "Well, because the beer hadn't finished fermenting when we bottle it and unless it's kept refrigerated it will explode"_
Plaintiff:_ "So, why doesn't a bottle of mega-brewed beer explode when not refrigerated?"_
Ubrewit_: "Because they probably wait until it's finished fermenting before they bottle it" ._
Plaintiff:_ "Why do you think they would do that?_
Ubrewit: _"So that their bottles don't expode"_

_Judge: "I rule in favour of the plaintiff."_


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/2/14)

If only it was that simple


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## MartinOC (12/2/14)

That's why you engage legal counsel - to simplify it for the Mediator/Magistrate/Judge.


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## indica86 (12/2/14)

Cleaver Green. He'll do it.


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## Mardoo (13/2/14)

Darren Hayes said:


> Herald Sun..Why. Its notoriously a tabloid of here today gone tomorrow stories. Lawyer up... Why, how much, what do you expect to get. Ubrewit is not Coles.
> I would suggest a letter to the director detailing the circumstances and request a response. See what happens.


You're right. Grainer, don't take my advice on this one.

Regarding the letter to the director, is UBrewIt a franchise/chain?


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## sponge (13/2/14)

As long as you have nice hands, this guy will do an incredible job.

No innuendo intended... ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2fPdZe7scI


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## sb944 (13/2/14)

The Beer Factory in Sydney is the same:
TEMPERATURE
It is important to keep your beer refrigerated to below 8°C.
When yeast becomes active above this temperature it will start consuming remaining fermentable substances through a secondary fermentation.
Symptoms of beer warming for too long
•Small white dots
•Slight increase in cloudiness
•In extreme cases, bottles blowing

So they admit they don't fully ferment it! From what I've heard though, they warn you when you are there that you'll need the fridge space.

If they just followed the process to the end, wouldn't the extra costs be offset by the fact many more people would buy the product? I know people who have considered doing this, but haven't because of needing 50L of fridge space for the beer.


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## Kodos (13/2/14)

The reasoning for keeping the beer refrigerated (that they don't use preservatives) sh!ts me no end.

Which commercial brewers use preservatives?

Coopers bottles can sit at room temperatures for years without exploding - they don't use preservatives, or pasteurise, plenty of live yeast in their bottles. It's just pure BS to cover themselves for not doing their job properly.

99% of the time they're brewing the same recipes with same extract, so should know *exactly* what OG and FG to expect. A quick check with a refractometer should show when it's properly done.

If they're keeping their cleaned and sanitised to levels expected of any commercial food preparation facility, infection should not be an issue.

It's just arse-covering BS. And as one of the other posters said, fermentation could start up again at fridge temps, especially if there's a lager yeast involved, or a bacterial infection.

If they were to make the disclaimer that people bringing their own bottles are the risk, I'd understand that. There's no way the store could be held responsible for the strength/cleanliness of bottles brought in by someone else. Storing the bottles in a shed/outside during the heat waves we've had this summer is another thing too (not suggesting this is what's happened here) - a lot of carbed bottles could start to get dangerous if they get above 30 degrees.

Playing with one of the kegging calculators, beer carbed to 2 vols CO2 kept at 4C is about 6.5psi, but raise that to 30C, that's it becomes 29psi. I think that's around the limit of most bottles. (I'm fully prepared to be cut down for that, but I'm pretty sure that reasoning adds up with my year 11 physics of 20 years ago - god that makes me feel old).

But again, UBrewIt doesn't say that's the problem - if that were the case they'd say keep it below 20C, not in the fridge.

I think if I was to start using a U-Brew-It mob, I'd be going in to brew my beer and then take the wort home to ferment myself. Only way to be sure.


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## pcmfisher (13/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Um...dont know how an AHB member would go in court. They would not be considered expert and could be regarded as hearsay evidence and they may not be viewed as expert witnesses ( especially considering you have aired your greivence on this forum, they will view it as collusion ). You are prob going to need someone who has some sort of qualifications in the field. Something that most on here do not have. The defence lawyer will just tear them apart. You can bet your arse the uBrew will vigourously defend, and if they win then expect to pay their costs. It sucks balls but going to court is not just a matter of saying " the bottles blew up and i got hurt and its their fault" They will question you on every little detail about what you did when you first left uBrew with the bottles up untill they blew up.
> 
> Not trying to discourage you, but lawyers are heartless c*nts in the court room and will stop at nothing to win. I have been in court and cross examined...its not fun at all.


What???
No experts on AHB???


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/2/14)

Everyone on AHB is an expert, but only within the realm.


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## benno1973 (13/2/14)

Just to play devils advocate here...

I've never been to a brew-your-own place, but from what I understand, they are only legally allowed to do it because you add the yeast yourself. They supply the equipment, but don't you ferment it (albeit on premises) and then bottle it yourselves? Could they argue that it's your fault for bottling before it was ready? Again, I've never been to one of those places, and I don't know if they tell you when you have to bottle, but from memory they sell you the wort and the bottles, and you do the fermenting and bottling?

Not to say that they did the righty by you, just spit-balling.


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## mje1980 (13/2/14)

Make a dirty big sign complete with pictures and sit on the footpath in front of the place. When they get the shits, which I'm sure they will, tell them you have 3 months of annual leave booked and you'll see them tomorrow. 

This worked very well for someone at work who bought a lemon car. No luck, then he tried it. I think it was 2 days before he got a replacement.

If you want to go down the legal path be sure of it, and be ready to make a lawyer rich.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

Correct that the purchaser adds the yeast, it is then fermented in their cool room and they will ring you to come and bottle, or say come back in 2 weeks, if they are busy and running out of space in the cool room what's to say it doesn't get pushed through earlier before fermentation is complete, but I am pretty sure it is force carbonated.


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## indica86 (13/2/14)

Filtered and force carbed.


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## sb944 (13/2/14)

Kaiser Soze said:


> Just to play devils advocate here...
> 
> I've never been to a brew-your-own place, but from what I understand, they are only legally allowed to do it because you add the yeast yourself. They supply the equipment, but don't you ferment it (albeit on premises) and then bottle it yourselves? Could they argue that it's your fault for bottling before it was ready? Again, I've never been to one of those places, and I don't know if they tell you when you have to bottle, but from memory they sell you the wort and the bottles, and you do the fermenting and bottling?
> 
> Not to say that they did the righty by you, just spit-balling.


No, the fermentation is on them. From their site:
U-Brewit uses purpose built temperature controlled fermenting rooms and established testing and sanitation procedures to ensure your beer is perfect every time.

"established testing" would have to mean take gravity readings? So if they sanitise your bottles onsite, and the fermentation is definitely complete, there should be no way to get a bottle bomb?

You should get them to change that last bit to "perfect every time (-1)".


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## benno1973 (13/2/14)

Or just "average some of the time" perhaps?

They may supply a fermenting room, but that doesn't mean that they do the fermenting. They've sold you the wort, bottles and some refrigeration space. They haven't fermented your beer for you. They could argue that if you hadn't added the yeast, none of this would ever have happened...


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## booargy (13/2/14)

I'm going to get a batch from them when they go off i'll sue. 30 large bottles expected return per bottle about $10,000. I will be charging $150 per bottle. Lawyers have already been organized.


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## OzPaleAle (13/2/14)

booargy said:


> I'm going to get a batch from them when they go off i'll sue. 30 large bottles expected return per bottle about $10,000. I will be charging $150 per bottle. Lawyers have already been organized.


Its a shame you keep your bottles next to your fine china collection also.....+$50,000


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## DJ_L3ThAL (13/2/14)

Kaiser Soze said:


> Or just "average some of the time" perhaps?
> 
> They may supply a fermenting room, but that doesn't mean that they do the fermenting. They've sold you the wort, bottles and some refrigeration space. They haven't fermented your beer for you. They could argue that if you hadn't added the yeast, none of this would ever have happened...


Surely some logic comes into play, if they don't *intend* on you fermenting the beer then what are their intentions having yeast (which they've supplied to customers, mind you) and a fermentation fridge?

If they can argue that if you didn't add the yeast none of it would have happened, you could argue that if they weren't in business in the first place none of it would have happened. Chicken or egg?


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## benno1973 (13/2/14)

True, but remember that the only reason they can conduct the business in the first place is because they aren't fermenting the end product, otherwise they'd need a whole new suite of licenses to sell you alcohol. If the law can overlook that point to allow the business to operate, it can probably apply the same standards to this case.

And you seem to have confused legal outcomes with logic :blink:


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## GalBrew (13/2/14)

I think one of the problems that we have is that you are a: providing your own bottles of unknown quality and b: you are responsible for their sanitation prior to bottling. It could be argued that your have used old bottles that are not up to the task, or that you did not appropriately sanitise them resulting in infection and further fermentation. I have tasted many a contaminated ubrewit beer over the years, however these have all been canned so all they did was gush and taste like ass. Not trying to blame you for shitty bottle bombs, but it is quite a bit of he said she said here from a proof point of view. That being said if fermentation is not being monitored, then that is bullcrap and very dangerous.....not a business model I would like to be a part of.


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## sb944 (13/2/14)

Sorry, I should have just quoted the whole lot, but there was more:
After the fermentation is complete, usually within 10 days, your beer is placed into a cold room and allowed to settle, mature and wait patiently for your return. Your beer is then filtered, transferred into stainless steel carbonating kegs and carbonated the morning you are booked to return.


So there is no control from the client between pitching the yeast and it being fully carbonated, which puts blame squarely back on them. And the way they write that, it wouldn't matter if you came back 2 weeks or 4 weeks later, they still would have put it in the fridge once they thought fermentation was finished.

However, I can understand the point that there are other factors that can cause this. With what he's got left in bottles, is there any chance an "expert" could determine the cause was definitely unfinished fermentation, rather than unsanitised bottles or extreme heat?


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## Grainer (13/2/14)

Contacted Slater and Gordon and they gave me a few contacts to help.r


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/2/14)

Would they take it on


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## Grainer (13/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Would they take it on


Not unless there is permanent damage to my shoulder.. they said if there is call them in 6 weeks when it has settled down and they will take it on. They don't take on cases until the full injury is known so they can get more cash out of the people.


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

Good stuff, John.

Whilst I can't abide Slander & Gordon (you know my "work" background), they'll have the resources to get you what you need.

Good luck with it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/2/14)

If you only get a scar then it prob wont be worth chasing...if it causes perm damage ie restricted use etc then you may get something.


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

What price his "silence", as opposed to camping-out in front of the business?


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## Cube (13/2/14)

MartinOC said:


> Good stuff, John.Whilst I can't abide Slander & Gordon (you know my "work" background), they'll have the resources to get you what you need.Good luck with it.


Ok I'll bite. What was/is your "work" background?


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## wynnum1 (13/2/14)

Hard to prove it was there beer after 6 months.


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## Grainer (13/2/14)

MartinOC, on 13 Feb 2014 - 4:52 PM, said:




MartinOC said:


> Good stuff, John.Whilst I can't abide Slander & Gordon (you know my "work" background), they'll have the resources to get you what you need.Good luck with it.


Ok I'll bite. What was/is your "work" background?

Manwhore of course


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

> Ok I'll bite. What was/is your "work" background?


You don't need to know.


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## indica86 (13/2/14)

MartinOC said:


> You don't need to know.


Secret Agent.


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

> Secret Agent.


You don't need to know.


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## indica86 (13/2/14)

I just locked the door and turned out the lights...

YOU CAN"T GET ME


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

Really believe that? Hmm...


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## indica86 (13/2/14)

No actually...


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

Welcome to my world......


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## goomboogo (13/2/14)

Hypnotist.


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## MartinOC (13/2/14)

I could tell you....but then I'd have to kill you.


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## shaunous (13/2/14)

Assassin?


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## pedleyr (13/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Stay away from no win no charge, I went with them to mediation against QBE before we went in my solicitor was telling me to back off and accept $2000, saying if we get that we will be lucky.
> Went before the mediator, the mediator and my brief never said a word, I argued my case against the QBE solicitor and they agreed to pay me $21,600.
> The solicitors supposedly acting on my behalf then put out their hands for 20%, I paid them 10% and told them they were lucky to be getting that.
> Small claims would also be one way to go but I think you would be only able to claim out of pocket expenses.


Your solicitor isn't allowed to charge a percentage of the settlement and you should report them to the regulator (Legal Services Commissioner in Victoria).


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

That's how no win no charge works, you agree to pay the 20% that is what they get, in my case the solicitor who accompanied me said not one word, that's why I only gave them 10%


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

Could vary from state to state but here in Qld contingency based (ie %) cost agreements are definitely illegal. Speculative (no win no fee) cost agreements are usually at a higher rate than usual to cover the firms risk but that's it.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

Well it must be Victoria, I think I read somewhere that they, (Slater & Gordon)have opened offices in the U.K and are doing very well with the same concept. The company I went through was not Slater & Gordon.


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

Nope, just checked. How closely did you read your cost agreement?

Contingency fees are prohibited
A law practice must not enter in a costs agreement under which the amount payable, or any part of that amount, is calculated by reference to the amount of any award or settlement or the value of any property that may be recovered in any proceedings to which the agreement relates.

http://www.lsb.vic.gov.au/legal-profession/working-under-the-act/cost-agreements/


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

As it says Liam a costs agreement is entered into by the client and the legal firm, 20% is the norm if the case is won.
I was with Advice Injury Lawyers, which is I believe Maurice Blackburn.


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

Um, read it again.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

Check out the uplift fee, a lawyer cannot charge more than 25%.

https://www.lsc.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/108580/No-win-no-fee-costs-agreement.pdf


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

That's a cap on the total recovery, not the basis for a fee structure. 

FYI my better half is a commercial litigation lawyer..

EDIT: I read it wrong - it's 25% of their ordinary rate - in order to cover their risk - not 25% of the 'payout'. 

Also what I was referring to at the top of this post is (I'm pretty sure, can check) that there is a cap on the total fee of something like 50% of the 'payout'.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

In Victoria, for example, the success fee is up to 25% which the Legal Profession Act 2004 allows us to charge in recognition of the risk involved and the additional expenses incurred by us in conducting your case on a "No win - No charge" basis. The success fee is not charged on expenses that you have paid during the course of your claim or that have been reimbursed by WorkCover or the TAC. The fee is not 25% of any damages you receive, it is a 25% increase on the legal costs due, ie for every $1000 in costs you would be charged an extra $250. We will be happy to explain the precise situation in each Australian jurisdiction or territory.


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

Exactly what I said.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

Believe me Liam 20% of payout is the charges you sign up for before they take on your case, I will have a look tomorrow for the paperwork, and it is not illegal for those charges.


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## wide eyed and legless (13/2/14)

Just checked another site,you are right Liam they are not allowed to say that they will charge 20% but funnily enough my charges were exactly 20%


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

In case you missed it the first time: 
"Contingency fees are prohibited

A law practice must not enter in a costs agreement under which the amount payable, or any part of that amount, is calculated by reference to the amount of any award or settlement or the value of any property that may be recovered in any proceedings to which the agreement relates."
http://www.lsb.vic.gov.au/legal-profession/working-under-the-act/cost-agreements/
It couldn't be clearer. You may have been mislead into thinking that the uplift fee was based on your payout.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/2/14)

So.....With no win no fee.....If you do win it is possible that the amount you win may not be enough to cover your legal fee, so you will badically be out of pocket.

I allways thought it a bit strange how it gets advertised. Since lawyers start at roughly $300/hr, 2-3 days work on a $10,000 payout wont leave much left over


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## Northside Novice (13/2/14)

yeah quick sue bitches yippee dippy day ,

a ok
usa

have a cup of crete n shut the fuk up


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## Liam_snorkel (13/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So.....With no win no fee.....If you do win it is possible that the amount you win may not be enough to cover your legal fee, so you will badically be out of pocket.


For "no win no fee" in Qld the total fee can't be more than 50% of the settlement. Probably similar in other states.


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## manticle (13/2/14)

northside novice said:


> yeah quick sue bitches yippee dippy day ,
> 
> a ok
> usa
> ...


Oddly enough, I made more sense from that than I usually do from an NN post. My English literature major is starting to pay off.


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## Northside Novice (13/2/14)

hows the post op emotions though ? the first few weeks are the best


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## manticle (13/2/14)

The medications can play havoc with you.


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## stakka82 (13/2/14)

northside novice said:


> yeah quick sue bitches yippee dippy day ,
> 
> a ok
> usa
> ...


Vintage.


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## TSMill (14/2/14)

Just wondering, did you supply your own bottles, and were they purpose bought refillable bottles, or reused commercial bottles, many if which are not intended for refill?


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## shaunous (14/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So.....With no win no fee.....If you do win it is possible that the amount you win may not be enough to cover your legal fee, so you will badically be out of pocket.
> 
> I allways thought it a bit strange how it gets advertised. Since lawyers start at roughly $300/hr, 2-3 days work on a $10,000 payout wont leave much left over


Definitely not.

They cannot charge by %, but they throw big costs for each tiny little thing they do, like a staple is $6 and photocopying is $15/page. BUT, if your case only brings you say $15,000 they mostly charge u nothing, their charges are paid for by the company u are suing, its when u get a payout of say $150,000, they will charge the company u are suing say around 75%(because thats all they'll get) of their fee's and the rest comes outa your hit. Again they cannot charge by %%%%, but its easier to use to work out.

Then if you feel their bill ripped you off, you go see the costs Ombudsman (cannot think of the technical name), and they decide if $6 a staple and $15/page of photocopying is fair.

I quote the solictor i used 'I can charge you that, thats your fault you never went to University', he was s smart-arse like myself so i laughed, some may not have.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/2/14)

Dont worry. I am fully aware of what they charge. Having been thru a divorce anf forking out $20k I know all about the fees. Even walking into there office costs $80/15 mins


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## Liam_snorkel (14/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Dont worry. I am fully aware of what they charge. Having been thru a divorce anf forking out $20k I know all about the fees. Even walking into there office costs $80/15 mins


^ yep. Sounds about right, 3 x 6min units @ ~$300/hr. For family law shit usually gets spiteful between parties and nobody ends up with anything (except the lawyers that is). Partners at bigger firms charge out at more like $500-600/hr. If they like you they might write off the occasional unit. If they want to milk you they'll put the graduate on your case and charge them out at the partner's rate... but if they go overboard you can get another firm to run a cost assessor through it.

My better half just served a bankruptcy notice to a lawyer who overcharged his client by a couple of hundred grand.. looks like his wife might have to sell that holiday house haha.


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## pk.sax (14/2/14)

I'd love to know what happens when a lawyer sues another lawyer. Who charges who for what!


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/2/14)

I was lucky. My solicitor told " dont come and see me unless I ask you to" and when it came to all my financial details he asked me to bring in my statements etc itemised and in order so he didnt have to charge me for sorting it all out.


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## Liam_snorkel (14/2/14)

practicalfool said:


> I'd love to know what happens when a lawyer sues another lawyer. Who charges who for what!


well the lawyer doesn't charge themselves for their time... haha.
Which ever party 'wins' inevitably applies for a costs order, whole or partial, and bleeds that out of them as well.


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## pk.sax (14/2/14)

Yeah, it's amazing how this stuff works. I read through the administrators report on the business and saw their hourly rates and expense charges and thought to myself, fvck, they will make more money than the bank (creditors) they are 'supposedly' working for. Enough OT. Back to blood, gore and litigation.


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## sb944 (14/2/14)

In America, lawyers have worked out their divorce clients often get less payout than their lawyer fees, so they conveniently allow you to contribute the rest of the fees out of your alimony cheques.


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## pcmfisher (14/2/14)

Kaiser Soze said:


> True, but remember that the only reason they can conduct the business in the first place is because they aren't fermenting the end product, otherwise they'd need a whole new suite of licenses to sell you alcohol. If the law can overlook that point to allow the business to operate, it can probably apply the same standards to this case.
> 
> And you seem to have confused legal outcomes with logic :blink:


I think you will find they pay an excise of some description which tends to say its them that makes alcohol.
(Here in S.A. anyway)


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## shaunous (16/2/14)

Everyone else in the world gets Audited, have lawyers ever been, they've gotta be more currupt than a mid 90's Greyhound trainer.


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## Grainer (16/2/14)

LOL they offered me another brew..!!


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/2/14)

Thats a WIN


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## Liam_snorkel (16/2/14)

Yeah lawyers get audited and have to keep records of all their charge sheets etc


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## pedleyr (16/2/14)

> Everyone else in the world gets Audited, have lawyers ever been, they've gotta be more currupt than a mid 90's Greyhound trainer.


Lawyers are obliged to give you a costs estimate up front and detail all of the avenues available to you to dispute their bill up front. When they bill you they are obliged to repeat that information and tell you who to contact and when if you want to dispute the bill.

In Victoria, even if the bill is exactly what you were quoted, you have 12 months within which to dispute it. If you dispute it, interest stops running.

So you can get told, fixed fee, $5k to do this contract for you. You get billed $5k. You pay it. 12 months later you can seek a review of the costs and potentially have it reduced and the lawyer will be required to refund the difference to you. That could be the case even if you were billed below the $5k.

Care to name another profession that gives that level of protection to clients/consumers with such issues? Not that I'm saying it shouldn't be that way given that the lawyer has an advantage over almost all client in terms of how the system works but these disclosure and dispute requirements have been in place for a long time now.


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## hellbent (16/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> you should also claim for the rare Gerry and the Pacemakers records that some bastard nicked while you were at the hospital getting stitched up. Good thinking about including the wheel chair photo that's worth a few more dollars.


I want this man as my solicitor!!


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## goomboogo (16/2/14)

When you pick up your new batch of bottles, turn up wearing a full-face bike helmet, welding gloves and full length leather apron. Then proceed to answer any questions from other customers.


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## philmud (16/2/14)

Grainer said:


> LOL they offered me another brew..!!


Ha! Did you say, "Sure guys, I feel a bit unbalanced. I'd like the opportunity to fill my other shoulder with shrapnel"


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## shaunous (17/2/14)

pedleyr said:


> Lawyers are obliged to give you a costs estimate up front and detail all of the avenues available to you to dispute their bill up front. When they bill you they are obliged to repeat that information and tell you who to contact and when if you want to dispute the bill.
> 
> In Victoria, even if the bill is exactly what you were quoted, you have 12 months within which to dispute it. If you dispute it, interest stops running.
> 
> ...


Im guessing another lawyer is the one disputing for u :unsure:


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## shaunous (17/2/14)

goomboogo said:


> When you pick up your new batch of bottles, turn up wearing a full-face bike helmet, welding gloves and full length leather apron. Then proceed to answer any questions from other customers.


Definitely do this, then youtube it :lol:


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## Liam_snorkel (17/2/14)

shaunous said:


> Im guessing another lawyer is the one disputing for u :unsure:


A costs assessor. Dunno about victoria, but up here these would be your options: http://www.qls.com.au/For_the_community/Find_a_solicitor/Find_a_cost_assessor


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## Sam England (17/2/14)

Take the free brew and then put one on the manager's desk as a "present" and ask him to leave it there for 6 months to condition before drinking. You'll quickly find out how well he trusts his processes!!


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## sponge (17/2/14)

Take the whole batch after it's bottled at leave it on the counter...



But in all seriousness, that's a pretty poor result from the sounds of things if all you got offered was a replacement brew - Considering your injuries could have been (but thankfully weren't) a whole lot worse.


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