# Sodium Metasilicate



## clatty (12/6/10)

Hey Guys

Anyone know where I could buy some sodium metasilicate? I've had a bit of a google around with no luck. 

I'm looking at mixing 2 parts sodium metasilicate to 1 part sodium percarbonate (napisan) for some homemade PBW as discussed here http://outofkey.com/beer/brewing/brewboard-pbw-vs-oxyclean/

PBW just seems to work better for me than napisan... but it's a bit pricey.


Cheers
clatty


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## Sammus (12/6/10)

google wont help. you can source pretty much anything by looking up chemical suppliers in the yellow and calling around. At least I've been able to  as long as no kind of permit is required to buy or hold it here in Aus, you should find it easily enough.


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## Batz (12/6/10)

OK there's a challenge for you all......find it boy!





Batz


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## pb unleaded (12/6/10)

Found this:

Herbon - natural auto dishwasher powder 1kg - $12.63
INGREDIENTS: 
Soda Ash (mineral), Sodium Bicarbonate (mineral), Phosphate (mineral), Sodium Metasilicate (Mineral

link


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## Batz (12/6/10)

http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/hcp_357...um_metasilicate

I think I may have found it some where else, looks like wood works use it in a cleaning process.

Batz


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## clatty (12/6/10)

arthur said:


> Found this:
> 
> Herbon - natural auto dishwasher powder 1kg - $12.63
> INGREDIENTS:
> ...



If we can find it on its own arthur we can save on dishwasher tablets too


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## phonos (13/6/10)

country brewer's keg cleaner is sodium metasilicate:
Country brewer cleaners


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## MHB (13/6/10)

Most HBSs sell it as bottle/glass/keg cleaner, often called brewers detergent, its fairly inexpensive and widely available.

MHB


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## Batz (13/6/10)

I have funny feeling it what they use to clean the beer lines a the local pub, it comes in a 20 kg bucket. I'll check it out next time I go down for a beer, they did tell me I could have some once,

Batz


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## yardy (10/11/10)

arthur said:


> Found this:
> 
> Herbon - natural auto dishwasher powder 1kg - $12.63
> INGREDIENTS:
> ...



has anyone tried this or something similar ?

cheers

Dave


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## Finite (10/11/10)

Hey mate,

MHB and phonos are correct. It quite often goes under the name 'Brewers Detergent'. Its used in other cleaning applications too and even in gardening so you could try your local CRT but home brew shops do stock it.

another link:
http://www.absolutehomebrew.com.au/?page_id=14


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## stux (10/11/10)

On a related note...

Is the Brewer's Detergent - Sodium Metasilicate, that you can buy from some brew stores safe to use on plastic fermenters?

What about PBW?


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## MHB (10/11/10)

Sodium Metasillicate is the active ingredient in PBW, and yes its safe on plastic, glass and stainless when used as directed. Too strong a solution will over time dissolve glass.

MHB


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## ekul (10/11/10)

Chinese source, probably the cheapest http://www.detergent-chemical.com/sodium-m...-anhydrous.html

10lbs for $60, though its from america so postage would be expensive http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Pounds-Sodium-Metas...=item3f0491df9f

1kg for $37.99 from japan . Free postage http://cgi.ebay.com/Sodium-metasilicate-po...=item35ada594b7
The japanese source also has 500g bottles of it as well.

I did a little reading on it, seems like a little of this will go a long way. Apparently a 1% solution has a pH of 13! So be really careful with it i suppose. Gloves and eye protection a must. This is from my very short reading on it though.


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## orangehead911 (6/6/13)

Aurora cleaning supplies in Dandenong, Victoria stock everything needed to create a PBW clone, except EDTA. I don't think EDTA is needed in Victoria anyway.

Check it out http://www.auroracleaning.com.au/types.asp?CategoryID={72E1B197-A739-4D7B-9C11-A92096C9D949}

I'll be making a batch of next week. I should yield about 18kg for the price of 8lbs of PBW....


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## mondestrunken (6/6/13)

Also BrewCellar's "Bottle Washing Powder" is sodium metasilicate.


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## djar007 (6/6/13)

i have some spare. if you want to pay postage i will donate a kg to you. pm me if you are interested.


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## Smokomark (6/6/13)

clatty said:


> Hey Guys
> 
> Anyone know where I could buy some sodium metasilicate? I've had a bit of a google around with no luck.
> 
> ...


Do a bit more research on your mix. I believe the standard mix is more like 2 part perc to 1 part met. 

Shoot Aydos a pm. He organised a buy for some of us BABBs guy a month or so ago. 25kg bag was about $80 i think. Sampson chemicals somewhere around Redcliffe. Aydos will confirm details.


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## jc64 (6/6/13)

smokomark said:


> Do a bit more research on your mix. I believe the standard mix is more like 2 part perc to 1 part met.
> 
> Shoot Aydos a pm. He organised a buy for some of us BABBs guy a month or so ago. 25kg bag was about $80 i think. Sampson chemicals somewhere around Redcliffe. Aydos will confirm details.


That quote is from 2010, if he still needs it I imagine sanitation is rooted for him now. :blink:


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## orangehead911 (29/6/13)

I've just bought a boatload of chemicals to make my oPBW... 

I was going to mix it according to this schedule:
40% Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate (that's roughly 30% pure Sodium Metasilicate)
44% Sodium Percarbonate
10% Sodium Carbonate
6% Sodium Lauryl Sulfate

I'm treating the Sodium Carbonate as a buffer/filler and not so much an active ingredient.

Any thoughts? Tips?


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## Mardoo (29/6/13)

If I recall correctly Dr Smurto has given a PBW formula in another thread but ATM I can't find it.


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## Black n Tan (29/6/13)

I would have thought Alpha Olefin Sulfonate would be closer to the surfactant used in PBW (Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonates) than sodium lauryl sulphate.


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## Black n Tan (29/6/13)

May be I am wrong...wolfy has proposed this formulation



Just an FYI, to make the equivalent of PBW, to the 70% Sodium Percarbonate 30% Sodium Metasilicate mix add:
Sodium laurilsulfate (detergent/surfacant, suggested mix 0.5-1%) is about $8/kg
EDTA (water softer, limescale remover, suggested mix 1-5%) is about $7/kg (_only available in 25kg bags_)


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## MartinOC (29/6/13)

Any chemical-heads around that can clarify:

Doesn't Sodium Percarbonate break-down to Sodium Carbonate as it releases it's oxygen (the bleaching/sanitising agent) & Sodium Carbonate (the water-softener/surfactant) anyway once in solution?

I'm happy to stand corrected here, as I'm sure I'm using the wrong terminology.


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## technobabble66 (29/6/13)

FWIW, in that thread wally posted above, DrSmurto does confirm the 2:1 ratio of SodPerc:SodMet, but in post#13 of that thread he also mentions there are some other ingredients to prevent clumping, etc.
Those 2 are just the active ingredients.

Also FWIW, some people are a little wary of Sodium Lauryl Sulfate. It might have some side effects from long-term exposure.
This might be less relevant given it should be fairly well rinsed out(?) (dunno if it could cling to the plastics though ...)


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## Black n Tan (29/6/13)

The two extra ingredients PBW use are a Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonates (surfactant) and EDTA (water softener, to stop scale)


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## orangehead911 (30/6/13)

Thanks for all the replies.

I've been on a number of forums and what I've got seems to be about what people have suggested. The PBW formula uses SDS or sodium lauryl sulphate which is why it's in my formulation. It's used in cosmetics so I don't think long term exposure should be a problem, but in any case I always rinse with plenty of water and sanitize after.

Sodium Percarbonate does break down to Sodium carbonate. That's why I'm figuring Sodium carbonate is used as a filler.

I think I'll go ahead and make a small test batch tonight and see how I go!


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