# Brewing System



## Brewme (30/12/09)

I have finally decided to step up to AG brewing.

I have read about a HERMS SYSTEM brewing setup........about $4,500.

Any comments on this type of system?

Cheers,


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy (30/12/09)

Any links, so we can check it out?


----------



## Yeastie Beastie (30/12/09)

Brewme said:


> I have finally decided to step up to AG brewing.
> 
> I have read about a HERMS SYSTEM brewing setup........about $4,500.
> 
> ...





What sort of brewing are you doing now?

I moved to AG not long ago but:

Big dollars does not mean you are going to make fantastic beer. 
AG = better beer, yes, but it is experience that makes great beer.

Have a look over this AG for Thirty Bucks before you spend $4500. This is a GREAT article. Do small 9ltr batches to gain experience, improve your knowledge and if you screw one up...you lose little.

At least you will find out if it for you before throwing away big dollars.

Just my opinion..

YB.


----------



## Brewme (31/12/09)

Here are the links to the Ultimate Brewing Systems 

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=7001

http://beerbelly.com.au/turnkey.html

For the past 10 months I've been making the kit beers such as Coopers and other brands as per instructions on the can with some enhancers such as Coopers 1 & 2. Nothing too fancy. After reading the forums here, I decided to go all the way for a better beer.

I have thought about making my own equipment. Got a 20 litre urn for the hot water. Got a big esky for the mash. Got a 50 litre vessel ready to be cut down and converted to a boiler. Got 3 rolls x 18 metres each of 1/2" copper pipe for cooling the wort. Taps and fittings are at Bunnings. (The copper rolls from Bunnings @ $50 per 18 metre roll compared to $110 from the plumbing shop).

I am just too lazy to pull my finger out and put it all together. Although it will do the same job, it won't look as fancy as the professional kit. 

So far I have made 25 brews this year. Each 23 litre brew gives me 2 1/2 cartons. I save on average $45 per brew. 

That's $1125 I've saved by not going to the bottle shop this year.

4 years at this rate and the 'you beaut mickey mouse system' will have paid for itself. When I retire next year, I'll have more time to drink and make more than 25 brews. That'll make it less than 4 years to pay for itself. As I also make a bit of 'shine, the savings will bring the time down to about 2 years........Maybe less.

Sounds good in theory........but the initial outlay will be painful 

Might try and make it myself and use the savings towards a 'newer' car (1981 up). 

Cheers,


----------



## Bribie G (31/12/09)

BIAB (Brew in a bag) in a 40L urn, and a cube for no-chill. Setup <$500 and if you decide to go three vessel for some insane reason, you'll still have a hot liquor tun.

Nothing wrong with the beers and the system is a tad quicker and less labour intensive than 3v.


<dons modesty suit>





<hangs modesty suit up>


----------



## Gavo (31/12/09)

Those systems you have linked to are top notch without a doubt, but... 

If for some insane reason you might go a single vessel system then you could spend a lot less dollars as BribieG has pointed out. Or, If you want to go a three vessel system you could build a system that still will come in well under a grand depending on how resourceful you are. as you have pointed out, you already have the gear to get you started with a gravity 3V system that you could in time build up. Yes maybe not as much bling, but made by yourself. I am starting to build version 3 of my system and still would be under the 500 dollar mark.

BribieG, no need for the modesty suit, you are that man already.

Cheers 
Gavo.


----------



## Nick JD (1/1/10)

The quality of beer is directly proportional to the cost of the brewing gear. 

That's why Carlton and Tooheys produce the world's best beer. :lol:


----------



## raven19 (1/1/10)

Brewme said:


> So far I have made 25 brews this year. Each 23 litre brew gives me 2 1/2 cartons. I save on average $45 per brew.
> 
> That's $1125 I've saved by not going to the bottle shop this year.




Good figures to know those ones! At that rate like you said after 4 years it wouldve paid for itself!

Exciting times when you decide to cross to the dark side!!!!!  

Good luck with whichever direction you go into AG.... :icon_cheers:


----------



## clean brewer (1/1/10)

I think its still important to do the hard work on anything these days before you take the easy way...  

You still need to understand the process's with certain things, if you dont understand why X does this, some expensive machine wont work it out for you.... :unsure: 

:icon_cheers: CB


----------



## gregs (1/1/10)

raven19 said:


> Good figures to know those ones! At that rate like you said after 4 years it wouldve paid for itself!
> 
> Exciting times when you decide to cross to the dark side!!!!!
> 
> Good luck with whichever direction you go into AG.... :icon_cheers:




So if he pulls his finger out and brews just over 11,000 brews, then lets see,

 11,000 X $45.00=$495.000. Wow almost half a million $ you could have your mortgage payed plus a trip to Vegas. 

Keep brewing man.


----------



## gregs (1/1/10)

BribieG said:


> BIAB (Brew in a bag) in a 40L urn, and a cube for no-chill. Setup <$500 and if you decide to go three vessel for some insane reason, you'll still have a hot liquor tun.
> 
> Nothing wrong with the beers and the system is a tad quicker and less labour intensive than 3v.
> 
> ...



Bribie I thought better of you! now take those blinkers off. :lol:


----------



## Gout (1/1/10)

BribieG said:


> BIAB (Brew in a bag) in a 40L urn, and a cube for no-chill. Setup <$500 and if you decide to go three vessel for some insane reason, you'll still have a hot liquor tun.
> 
> Nothing wrong with the beers and the system is a tad quicker and less labour intensive than 3v.
> 
> ...


I love this post

i brewed more to play with temp control etc ( as i went through uni) - ( wait was that drink through uni?) 

it shows the beer = the brewer


----------



## Zwickel (1/1/10)

Happy new year brewers,

if Id be limited in space and time, Id buy a System like that:
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister.html

whattayathinkabout?

:icon_cheers:


----------



## glaab (1/1/10)




----------



## bradsbrew (1/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> Happy new year brewers,
> 
> if Id be limited in space and time, Id buy a System like that:
> http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister.html
> ...



Awesome!


----------



## Bribie G (1/1/10)

Braumeister is basically BIAB without the bag but with a mesh cylinder instead. Very similar one pot system. AFAIK the original BIAB idea was an attempt to do what the Braumeister does using locally available equipment. If Thirsty Boy, Spillsmostofit or Pistol Patch are reading this they may concur.

Edit: on further examination of the procedure it differs from 'normal' BIAB in that it has a recirculation device (similar to the rotating sparge arm that can be bought for the UK BruHeat system) which enables stepped mashing. This can, however, be done with BIAB by partially raising bag and applying heat (I easily did a protein rest with my one and only Bo Pils using BIAB).

Also the Braumeister suggests cooling wort as quickly as possible but offers no specific method, nochill would be good
When hoisting the malt pipe = bag it looks like there's a frame that holds it up to drain. Hmmm now I'm thinking................

And a separate fermenting vessel is needed. Mate if I win Lotto on Sat. I'll buy a couple :icon_cheers:

Edit edit; 

So when is Beerbelly going to do a 'malt pipe' that fits exactly into a Birko or Crown, with heavy duty lifting lugs .........................................


----------



## geoff_tewierik (1/1/10)

BribieG said:


> Also the Braumeister suggests cooling wort as quickly as possible but offers no specific method



Ahh, under the accessories section they do:

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/product...ooler-50-l.html

It's even included as part of their starter set.

I did notice that the Australian Distributor appears to be MHB?


----------



## Zwickel (1/1/10)

yeah, it seems to be a combination of BIAB and RIMS.

sorry, I posted the german site, here is the english site: http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister.html

I think its ideal for people who live in an appartment or in a flat, anyway for people with limited space.
Passionate Homebrewers are building theire own system


----------



## pokolbinguy (1/1/10)

geoff_tewierik said:


> I did notice that the Australian Distributor appears to be MHB?



Yeh he has one in store that he brews with.


----------



## Bribie G (1/1/10)

I also see that the "malt pipe" has solid sides, so the bottom is presumably the only perforated surface, thus building up a grain bed on raising it, and thus the RIMS capability. 

I reckon BeerBelly could piss in one of those no problems.


----------



## bum (1/1/10)

BribieG said:


> I reckon BeerBelly could piss in one of those no problems.



Sure they could but, seriously, why would they? There couldn't be any profit in it when the system it is replacing can be as cheap as a garden variety water urn, less than $10 of swiss viole.


----------



## Zwickel (1/1/10)

BribieG said:


> I also see that the "malt pipe" has solid sides, so the bottom is presumably the only perforated surface, thus building up a grain bed on raising it, and thus the RIMS capability.
> 
> I reckon BeerBelly could piss in one of those no problems.


bottom and top is perforated, so the wort pump pumps permanently through the malt pipe and keeps the grain floating.


----------



## Bribie G (2/1/10)

bum said:


> Sure they could but, seriously, why would they? There couldn't be any profit in it when the system it is replacing can be as cheap as a garden variety water urn, less than $10 of swiss viole.



"Cheap as urn" is around $300. I'd readily part with a hundred bucks whatever for a malt pipe and then look at a March Pump setup. RWAMP system (RIMS with a Malt Pipe) :lol: After all it's just a glorified big baked bean can with a mesh bottom.


----------



## bum (2/1/10)

My apologies. It looked to me like the statement I quoted was about the device linked not the "malt pipe".

Having said that, I've seen BeerBelly's prices and I don't reckon it'd come at under $300. I'm sure it could be better but I severely doubt it would come in cheaper than a full retail Birko.

LET ME MAKE THIS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: I'm not having a go at BeerBelly. I plan to make at least a couple purchases from them in setting up my 3V system in the very near future. I'm sure their kit is worth every cent.


----------



## white.grant (2/1/10)

I notice in one of the videos that a piece of cloth was used under the perforated metal lid of the malt pipe, no doubt to further filter the runoff. Its a nice looking system, the 200l one is particularly impressive.

cheers

grant


----------



## Screwtop (2/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> bottom and top is perforated, so the wort pump pumps permanently through the malt pipe and keeps the grain floating.




Mmmmm.......full volume, no sparge brewing, how is the efficiency Zwickel? Do you know anyone who uses one of these Braumeister units?

Cheers and Happy NY

Screwy


----------



## Screwtop (2/1/10)

Brewme said:


> I have finally decided to step up to AG brewing.
> 
> I have read about a HERMS SYSTEM brewing setup........about $4,500.
> 
> ...




If you prefer to buy a turnkey system, then go ahead. If you plan on brewing the quantities you indicate, I would be looking into a 50L system. Same brewday time, same cleanup, twice as much beer, half as many brewdays. Can still brew 25L in these to keep the brewing frequency up while learning the craft/art. Food for thought.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## woodmac66 (2/1/10)

Screwtop said:


> If you prefer to buy a turnkey system, then go ahead. If you plan on brewing the quantities you indicate, I would be looking into a 50L system. Same brewday time, same cleanup, twice as much beer, half as many brewdays. Can still brew 25L in these to keep the brewing frequency up while learning the craft/art. Food for thought.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



I did exactly the same for the same reasons!
Cleaning is the major deterant to having an enjoyable Brewday and is critical must to making good beer .
So making twicw as much half as often and maintaining flexibity to brewing single if requires is a great compomise.
My first step into AG was with a complete system and i am now brewing great beer I am very happy with.
Either of the sytems and whatever you buy you will be happy with.
Ease of process is also a big pro in the decision you are making.
I don,t think there would be to many people on this site that wouldn't like one in their shed.
The only con is the money...... If you have it spend it on what you love!
No one ever considers in hese discussions that the value of good equipment seems to hold , so you need to consider hat you will end up with at the end as that is the true cost not the outlay.
Hope that makes sense!!


Woody


----------



## newguy (2/1/10)

Brewme said:


> I have finally decided to step up to AG brewing.
> 
> I have read about a HERMS SYSTEM brewing setup........about $4,500.
> 
> Any comments on this type of system?



I know many homebrewers but I only know three who bought a preassembled brewing unit. One used it to brew commercially, and the other two use theirs to brew personally. That's not to say that it's a bad investment or anything like that, it's just that they're not the norm. The norm is usually a homemade assemblage of weird things that together happen to get the job done.

If you can spare the $, then one of these systems is actually a pretty good investment, especially if you value your time. Just make sure you step into this with eyes open: the best equipment doesn't automatically mean better beer. Good beer is entirely up to you, but in my opinion is about 95% due to sanitation. The other thing to consider is that you'll probably alter the unit sometime down the road. All 3 of the commercial units I know about were altered in some way once their owners got to know their systems. Most of the alterations were minor but one of the systems doesn't resemble the way it was originally shipped anymore.

If it was me, knowing what I now know, I'd spend the money differently and equip a good double sized (40l finished volume) brewery:

- 142l esky (link here). I've used both chest-style and cylindrical eskies before, and I prefer the chest style. Fewer stuck runoffs with it.
- Homemade manifold for the bottom of the esky. I'd personally go with a 12mm solid copper pipe model that can be broken down for cleaning but I've heard of people using braided SS with success.
- 60l (if not larger) kettle with tap.
- Propane "king cooker" burner or equivalent.
- If foregoing no chill, you'll need a wort chiller.
- Malt mill with adjustable gap. Motorise it if you wish.
- At least 8 x 19l kegs, but 12 is more manageable.
- CO2 bottle, regulator with dual gauge: tank pressure and regulator pressure.
- Two temperature controlled chambers, one for fermenters and the other for kegs.

You could easily buy everything on the list for a lot less than $4500 and still have money left over for ingredients.


----------



## Brewer_010 (2/1/10)

True woody
I'm going to have SFA space in my new house (where I'll be living for at least 10 years) and a system like the braumeister would be perfect - rather than a heap of bulky brewing equipment. If I had enough money to build a flash house with double garage and heaps of backyard / shed I would, but I don't so I can't.
This would fit in my single garage nicely. Also the time saving would be another plus.


----------



## MHB (2/1/10)

Yes I am the Australian agent for Braumeister.
There are about half a dozen of these in Oz now, I know they arent inexpensive, but the build quality is what you would expect from a first class German engineering firm. Price is far from the only concern to some brewers.

When choosing a brewing system I wanted something that could run pretty much unattended; (its the only way I could fit any brewing into my week) that allowed flexibility so I could do isothermal as well as stepped mashes, its relatively compact - a smallish footprint for the output made the Braumeister a perfect fit for my needs.

The Braumeister system is a full volume RIMS system; my 50 Litre unit has 2 pumps, 2 elements (15 Amp total) and a PID controller with 5 step temperature/time plus boil time/temperature set points.
I routinely hit 80% Brew House Efficiency, at present I mostly no chill, but will be getting a tap up this end of the shop soon, so will be able to go straight into a fermenter.

I know this wont be everyones first choice, but I am very happy with mine.

MHB


----------



## pokolbinguy (2/1/10)

How much are they in Aus MHB??


----------



## RobW (2/1/10)

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/product...do9a63fmt95lsd4


----------



## Brewer_010 (2/1/10)

MHB said:


> Yes I am the Australian agent for Braumeister.
> There are about half a dozen of these in Oz now, I know they arent inexpensive, but the build quality is what you would expect from a first class German engineering firm. Price is far from the only concern to some brewers.
> 
> When choosing a brewing system I wanted something that could run pretty much unattended; (its the only way I could fit any brewing into my week) that allowed flexibility so I could do isothermal as well as stepped mashes, its relatively compact - a smallish footprint for the output made the Braumeister a perfect fit for my needs.
> ...



MHB
an issue I have prior to buying something like this (and forking out a few $k's) is what are the warranty / parts / replacement bits like? If something breaks (like electronics) in three or four years time how expensive will it be to fix? A busted part on a conventional brew rig is not something you'd normally see.
cheers


----------



## MHB (2/1/10)

I charge the same price as listed on the Braumeister website, plus the cost of landing it here.
Air freight, import duty and GST all included about double the price in Euros, the 50L version comes in around $5000- remember that the exchange rate isnt fixed, around 62 cents right now.
As the agent I carry a range of spares (including the computer), have for the last couple of years, and havent needed any yet, like I said they are extremely well made. Speidel (the parent company) are a long established manufacture with a reputation for quality and service.

Im getting too close to commercial posting for comfort, if anyone has questions please email me, if youre really interested come and do a brew on mine.
There should be a dedicated Braumeister website up by the end of the month in the meantime here is a PHF of spare parts (in German and the prices are a bit out of date) 
Parts 20LView attachment 34311

Parts 50LView attachment 34312

Brewing Instructions View attachment 34313

MHB

PS Im hanging for one of those spun copper tops to become available for the 50L Braumeister.
M


----------



## glaab (2/1/10)

newguy said:


> - 142l esky



jeebers!, wyh is your tun so big for 40L batches? aint 60L esky big enough for ya?


----------



## newguy (2/1/10)

glaab said:


> jeebers!, wyh is your tun so big for 40L batches? aint 60L esky big enough for ya?





The first time you try to brew a doppelbock or a barleywine or a wee heavy, you'll be wishing your mash tun was bigger.


----------



## bill_gill85 (3/1/10)

MHB,

Looking at the principle of the Braumeister, it would appear that you can only brew in a relatively fixed volume for the wort to cascade over the malt pipe. Is that the case or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Ben


----------



## MHB (3/1/10)

[font=" #39Times New Roman#39#39serif#39 FONT-SIZE 12pt"]Well yes and no[/font]

[font=" #39Times New Roman#39#39serif#39 FONT-SIZE 12pt"]It is designed to make 50 Litres of standard beer (1.050), I have made as little as 35 L of heavy and 65 L light weight beer[/font]

[font=" #39Times New Roman#39#39serif#39 FONT-SIZE 12pt"]The malt pipe is full of malt (nominally around 10Kg, but I have put in up to 12Kg) which only allows for there being ~15L of water in the malt pipe, the annular space between the malt tube and the body can be anywhere from full to nearly empty so there is a reasonable amount of flexibility.[/font]

[font=" #39Times New Roman#39#39serif#39 FONT-SIZE 12pt"]Braumeister also offer a [color=" #0070c0"]*[color=" #0070c0"]short malt pipe for the 50 L model[/color]*[/color] that lets you do 20-25 L batches.[/font]

[font=" #39Times New Roman#39#39serif#39 FONT-SIZE 12pt"]These days with the prevalence of "No Chill" I don't see it as being much of an issue, 1 to the fermenter and 1 to a cube for Ron.[/font]

[font=" #39Times New Roman#39#39serif#39 FONT-SIZE 12pt"]MHB[/font]


----------



## Zwickel (3/1/10)

Okay, MHB has answered already the most of the questions.

Just some comments:



Screwtop said:


> Mmmmm.......full volume, no sparge brewing, how is the efficiency Zwickel? Do you know anyone who uses one of these Braumeister units?



of course sparging is possible. Just hang up the malt pipe in the upper position and sparge.
Anaway, your question about efficiency is justifiable, most of users I know complain a little bit a low efficiency, but thats all what theyre complaining about, either of them loves hes Speidel.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## MHB (3/1/10)

Dead right Zwickel
I brought an 8 Litre urn with a thermostat (it holds 10 L if you dont let it boil), bring the water up to about 80oC, when you lift the malt pipe at the end of mashing, it sits on top of the pot to drain, I just pour the hot water on top of the grain bed and let it percolate down.

Fairly happy with 80% brewhouse efficiency, I could go chasing another couple of percent but dont think its worth the hassle.
MHB


----------



## Screwtop (3/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> Okay, MHB has answered already the most of the questions.
> 
> Just some comments:
> 
> ...






MHB said:


> Dead right Zwickel
> I brought an 8 Litre urn with a thermostat (it holds 10 L if you dont let it boil), bring the water up to about 80oC, when you lift the malt pipe at the end of mashing, it sits on top of the pot to drain, I just pour the hot water on top of the grain bed and let it percolate down.
> 
> Fairly happy with 80% brewhouse efficiency, I could go chasing another couple of percent but dont think its worth the hassle.
> MHB




Thats really good, and a great compact brewing rig :beer: 

Screwy


----------



## Zwickel (3/1/10)

Screwy, the basic idea behind the Speidel is doing a full volume mash, that means basically not to sparge. Otherwise there would be a little bit too much grain in the malt pipe and the recirc. pump would have difficulties to pump the wort through.
Since the malt is very cheap over here, one may ignore a low efficiency.
That would make the brewday simpler.
Other hand, if youre going to sparge, youd end up with more than the nominal volume.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## Screwtop (3/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> Since the malt is very cheap over here, one may ignore a low efficiency.




Lucky buggers, grumble mumble.



HA HA just noticed this in your sig :lol:

In XXXX Veritas

More like Bullshit :lol: In XXXX non credo


----------



## zoigl (3/1/10)

There goes the kid' :icon_chickcheers: s inheritance
I am retired and need a new hobby that includes a great beer
Cheers


----------



## Bribie G (4/1/10)

Damn wish I'd never read this thread, I'm off to BigW on Wednesday with a tape measure and see what pots they have that I could turn into a malt pipe for my urn and figure out how to work a March Pump into the setup


----------



## Zwickel (4/1/10)

For inspiration, here a selfmade "Braumeister" with hop feeder:

http://www.hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name...12&tid=4639


pics say more than thausend words

:beer:


----------



## RdeVjun (4/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> For inspiration, here a selfmade "Braumeister" with hop feeder:


Fascinating stuff Zwickel, many thanks!

I suspect that I won't be the only one enrolling in German classes any day now!

:icon_cheers:


----------



## white.grant (4/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> For inspiration, here a selfmade "Braumeister" with hop feeder:
> 
> http://www.hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name...12&tid=4639
> 
> ...



That is most awesome.

cheers

grant


----------



## QldKev (4/1/10)

Zwickel said:


> For inspiration, here a selfmade "Braumeister" with hop feeder:
> 
> http://www.hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name...12&tid=4639
> 
> ...




Put this into Google and select [ Translate this page ] from the first result

site:http://www.hobbybrauer.de/ Thema: Die Viertel-Quadratmeter-Brauerei ... mit Einkocher, Umwlzung, Malztopf und Computer

EDIT: Google may take a few secs to return the page from the translation (no your computer has not crashed)


QldKev


----------



## Bribie G (4/1/10)

Awesome, it was technology like that that, that sank the Lusitania with just one torpedo 

  


 

It's interesting to see that the malt pipe doesn't completely fill the 'jacket' so I suppose there's wort sitting in that space, however I expect it all gets recirculated around and shouldn't lead to serious loss of efficiency.


----------



## Weizguy (4/1/10)

It's not all about the "malt pipe".

The Braumeister also allows progammable stepped mash, and is much more automated than most home setups.

I have brewed on the rig at the lhbs and made quite a reasonable beer for the Bitter & Twisted event.

Need to make an appointment to brew again soon. Keen to try a simple APA for Summer drinking.


----------

