# De-chlorination substance



## Andy_27 (8/10/16)

Hi guys, I know Campden tablets are good to remove chlorine and chloramine from tap water. But I dont have any on hand... I do have API brand Tap Water Conditioner for use in fish tanks to remove these chemicals. Has anyone used this in their brew water or know if its safe to use? It doesnt have the active ingredients on the bottle.
Cheers!


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## Zorco (8/10/16)

Hi Andy_27,

A good trick is to locate the MSDS.

I think this is the one
http://www.apifishcare.com/pdf/52_Tap_Water_Conditioner_2014_January_10_00-40-44-053_AM.pdf


I got it from
http://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?p=downloads&id=655


I'll have a read and see if I know about the ingredients.


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## Andy_27 (8/10/16)

Hi mate, I just found that too. It seems to be Sodium Thiosulfate and EDTA Tetrasodium salt.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/10/16)

EDTA chelates divalent cations, so it will strip Ca2+ and Mg2+ from the water, replacing them with Na+. The effect of the amount you'd be adding if you used that mixture to strip chlorine would be tiny, but it's there.


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## Andy_27 (8/10/16)

I should probably just stop being impatient and duck into the shop during the week and pick up some campden tabs. :unsure:


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## sp0rk (8/10/16)

If your council is just using chlorine, leave your water to sit overnight, the chlorine will evaporate off


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## MHB (8/10/16)

If your council is just using chlorine, leave your water to sit overnight (*SOME OF*) the chlorine will evaporate off.
M


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## manticle (8/10/16)

Boiling will remove chlorine. Boiling will remove some chloramine.


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## peteru (9/10/16)

The other thing you could use (and may have at home) is vitamin C (aka ascorbic acid). You don't need much. 1/10th of a tablet for 20L of water should be enough.


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## goatchop41 (11/10/16)

manticle said:


> Boiling will remove chlorine. Boiling will remove some chloramine.





peteru said:


> The other thing you could use (and may have at home) is vitamin C (aka ascorbic acid). You don't need much. 1/10th of a tablet for 20L of water should be enough.


Head brewer/owner of the local brewery here in Bendigo (with a background in chemistry) assured us at a homebrewing info session that boiling and/or campden will NOT make any difference to chloramine levels at all. Makes me wonder why so many people constamtly harp on about using it to remove chloramine from tap water.
At the brewery they use an activated charcoal filter, but he said that for a homebrewer, ascorbic acid is certainly the best option. Just buy some off ebay for peanuts, or from your local pharmacy (just make sure to get it unflavoured, and without fillers ie. powder not tablets!).

Dosage depends on the ppm of chloramine in your local water supply. Dosage in grams = ppm of chloramine * 2.5 per 1000L of water (here in Bendigo where we have ~3ppm, I use about 25L of water per batch, so I would use 3*2.5/(1000/25) = 0.1875g of ascorbic acid for 25L of tap water)


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## manticle (11/10/16)

People constantly harp on because there are a number of sources that suggest differently.


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## peteru (11/10/16)

Chemist Warehouse sell pure ascorbic acid. It's under $10 for a bag that will last you a lifetime of brewing.

I use a two stage water filter, with the second stage being a charcoal filter for my brewing water. However, if I use bleach to clean plastic items, I always mix up some ascorbic acid solution and rinse everything to neutralise the chlorine stench.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (11/10/16)

goatchop41 said:


> Head brewer/owner of the local brewery here in Bendigo (with a background in chemistry) assured us at a homebrewing info session that <snip> campden will NOT make any difference to chloramine levels at all.


He's either being misquoted or he's wrong. The reaction is so reliable it's used as an assay technique.


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## MHB (11/10/16)

goatchop41 said:


> Head brewer/owner of the local brewery here in Bendigo (with a background in chemistry) assured us at a homebrewing info session that boiling and/or campden will NOT make any difference to chloramine levels at all. Makes me wonder why so many people constamtly harp on about using it to remove chloramine from tap water.
> At the brewery they use an activated charcoal filter, but he said that for a homebrewer, ascorbic acid is certainly the best option. Just buy some off ebay for peanuts, or from your local pharmacy (just make sure to get it unflavoured, and without fillers ie. powder not tablets!).
> 
> Dosage depends on the ppm of chloramine in your local water supply. Dosage in grams = ppm of chloramine * 2.5 per 1000L of water (here in Bendigo where we have ~3ppm, I use about 25L of water per batch, so I would use 3*2.5/(1000/25) = 0.1875g of ascorbic acid for 25L of tap water)


I'm going to disagree with some of this. Metabisulphite will quickly and effectively remove both Chlorine and Chloramines.
It is much faster and more certain than Ascorbic Acid, tho there are some reports that a blend of the two is also very effective and may be better at both dechlorination and deoxygenation. BYO did something on this 

Big advantage of Campden tablets is they don't need weighing, just counting, as each contains 0.44g of metabisulphite, enough to add about 225ppm to 1L (originally 50ppm to 1 Imperial Gallon)
I would be adding around 3-4ppm to my brewing liquor.
Mark


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## Dave70 (12/10/16)

I prefer to leave the chlorine _in_ to avoid cholera and tooth decay.


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## peteru (12/10/16)

You'll need fluoride for the teeth.

Although, now that I mentioned fluoride, expect the conspiracy theorists to pull out their tin-foil hats and come out of hiding to warn us.


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## Zorco (12/10/16)

I've got amalgam fillings. The continual poisoning makes me thirsty and constantly craving spicy and slow cooked meat products...


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## sp0rk (12/10/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I've got amalgam fillings. The continual poisoning makes me thirsty and constantly craving spicy and slow cooked meat products...


Huh, that explains my cravings


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## peteru (12/10/16)

Me too. I solved the problem with pulled beef on jalapeno sourdough for lunch.


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## Adr_0 (12/10/16)

As others have said, to answer the OP sugarless vitamin C (eg mix of sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid) would be perfect. 500mg is probably suitable for 50-70L of 1ppm total chlorine water.

Regarding vitamin C not working for chloramine (and chlorine):

NH2Cl + C6H8O6 >> C6H6O6 + NH4 + Cl (gas)

HOCl + C6H8O6 >> C6H6O6 + HCl + H2O

So it does... And has references as others have stated. 

And for sodium met (chloramine and chlorine):
2NH2Cl + Na2S2O5 + 3H2O >> 2H2SO4 + 2NaCL + NH4

2HOCl + Na2S2O5 + H2O >> 2H2SO4 + 2NaCl

as MHB alluded to, reaction rate and even mixing is not considered in these - so typically a 2-3x excess is used.


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## peteru (13/10/16)

So, vitamin C will end up with DHA and gasses (which will presumably come out of solution) as a byproduct, whereas sodium met will give you salt and sulphuric acid. Me guess that DHA might be slightly more desirable for the subsequent reactions.

Ergo vitamin C "wins"


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/10/16)

Stolen from the internet

*Removing chloramines from water*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]

Chloramines should be removed from water for dialysis, aquariums, hydroponic applications, and homebrewing beer. Chloramines can interfere with dialysis, can hurt aquatic animals, and can give homebrewed beer a medicinal taste by forming chlorophenols. In hydroponic applications, it will stunt the growth of plants.[15]
When a chemical or biological process that changes the chemistry of chloramines is used, it falls under reductive dechlorination. Other techniques use physical—not chemical—methods for removing chloramines.[_citation needed_]

*Dialysis*[SIZE=small]*[*edit][/SIZE]
Chloramine must be removed from the water prior to use in kidney dialysis machines, as it would come in contact with the bloodstream across a permeable membrane. However, since chloramine is neutralized by the digestive process, kidney dialysis patients can still safely drink chloramine-treated water.[16]

*Ultraviolet light*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]

The use of ultraviolet (UV) light for chlorine or chloramine removal is an established technology that has been widely accepted in pharmaceutical, beverage, and dialysis applications.[17] UV is also used for disinfection at aquatic facilities.

*Superchlorination*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours.[_citation needed_]

*Ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate completely neutralize both chlorine and chloramine, but degrade in a day or two, which makes them usable only for short-term applications. SFPUC determined that 1000 mg of Vitamin C tablets, crushed and mixed in with bath water, completely remove chloramine in a medium-size bathtub without significantly depressing pH.[18]

*Activated carbon*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Activated carbon has been used for chloramine removal long before catalytic carbon became available; standard activated carbon requires a very long contact time, which means a large volume of carbon is needed. For thorough removal, up to four times the contact time of catalytic carbon may be required.
Most dialysis units now depend on granular activated carbon (GAC) filters, two of which should be placed in series so that chloramine breakthrough can be detected after the first one, before the second one fails.[19] Additionally, sodium metabisulfite injection may be used in certain circumstances.[20]

*Campden tablets*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Home brewers use reducing agents such as sodium metabisulfite or potassium metabisulfite (both proprietary sold as Campden tablets) to remove chloramine from brewing fermented beverages. However, residual sodium can cause off flavors in beer[21] sopotassium metabisulfite is preferred.

*Sodium thiosulfate*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Sodium thiosulfate is used to dechlorinate tap water for aquariums or treat effluent from waste water treatments prior to release into rivers. The reduction reaction is analogous to the iodine reduction reaction. Treatment of tap water requires between 0.1 grams and 0.3 grams of pentahydrated (crystalline) sodium thiosulfate per 10 liters of water. Many animals are sensitive to chloramine, and it must be removed from water given to many animals in zoos.

*Other methods*[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Chloramine, like chlorine, can be removed by boiling and aging. However, time required to remove chloramine is much longer than that of chlorine. The time required to remove half of the chloramine (half-life) from 10 gallons of water by boiling is 26.6 hours, whereas the half-life of free chlorine in boiling 10 gallons of water is only 1.8 hours.[22]


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## Adr_0 (13/10/16)

peteru said:


> So, vitamin C will end up with DHA and gasses (which will presumably come out of solution) as a byproduct, whereas sodium met will give you salt and sulphuric acid. Me guess that DHA might be slightly more desirable for the subsequent reactions.
> 
> Ergo vitamin C "wins"


Homebrewers win - lots of options. As MHB said, sodium met works faster. Keep in mind HCl will also slightly acidify your water, and salt is arguably very useful for maltier beers. 

I've used vitamin C for the last 12-18mths and it works extremely well. I forgot to add to sparge water and got horrible chlorophenols - lots of chloramine in water here - so it's definitely effective in a 2-3x excess.

On the other hand, I've been burnt using sodium met - because I didn't use enough (didn't do the 2-3x excess). Rather than leaving too much salt I would actually argue that too much sodium met will leave you with sodium sulphite, or if you have O2 through your system, sodium sulphate. This would be quite noticeable. They are basically what's left once chlorine gets neutralised and you have leftover sodium met sitting in the water. 

I'm looking at moving to a 50:50wt% mix on sodium met and ascorbic acid for some extra O2 scavengabilitynessment... But that's a story far another day.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/10/16)

peteru said:


> So, vitamin C will end up with DHA and gasses (which will presumably come out of solution) as a byproduct, whereas sodium met will give you salt and sulphuric acid. Me guess that DHA might be slightly more desirable for the subsequent reactions.
> 
> Ergo vitamin C "wins"


I would argue that DHA is _less_ desirable for subsequent reactions as it promotes oxidation due to its functionality as an electron transporter.

I can't see a few ppm of sulphate being much of a problem. If the countervailing cation is a problem you could always use calcium bisulphite instead of PMS / SMS .

That being said, I add 25 mg/l ascorbic to Melbourne water with no discernable ill effects, even in very pale beers with only "noble" hop adds.


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## Adr_0 (14/10/16)

Alright let me redo that sucker. I should probably be scolded or at least fired for rushing things and ignoring basics like which one donates hydrogen/behaves like an acid. 

So firstly, sodium met:

Na2S2O5 + H2O >> 2NaHSO3 (sodium bisulphite, ie the 1000L sitting in front of me at work) 
Then:
2NaHSO3 + 2HOCl >> 2HCl + Na2SO4 + H2SO4
>unreacted SBS will bond with any O2 to form sodium sulphate Na2SO4, and sulphuric acid H2SO4
>products are basically acids and sodium sulphate

For chloramine, water would be needed to donate H+ unlike normal chlorine:
2NaHSO3 + 2NH2Cl + 2H2O >> NaSO4 + H2SO4 + 2Cl + 2NH4
>ammonium chloride is produced, good for yeast
>still have sodium sulphate, slightly less acid

For ascorbic acid:

Dissociating in water
C6H8O6 + H2O >> C6H7O6- + H3O+

then with chlorine:
C6H7O6 + H3O + HOCl >> C6H6O6 + 2H20 + HCl

And for chloramine:
C6H7O6 + H3O + NH2Cl >> C6H6O6 + H2O + NH4 + Cl
>> basically the byproduct if this is ammonium chloride
>>if there is any excess past the requirement of the chloramine, the H3O excess will react with O2 in a 2:1 to make water

Whenever chloramine is involved, NH4(+) is produced which will likely form salts with Chloride (-). Not sure either way on DHA. Sorry about the earlier dodgy post.


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## Adr_0 (14/10/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I would argue that DHA is _less_ desirable for subsequent reactions as it promotes oxidation due to its functionality as an electron transporter.
> 
> I can't see a few ppm of sulphate being much of a problem. If the countervailing cation is a problem you could always use calcium bisulphite instead of PMS / SMS .
> 
> That being said, I add 25 mg/l ascorbic to Melbourne water with no discernable ill effects, even in very pale beers with only "noble" hop adds.


I guess, but if you have ascorbic acid in excess - with some left over after chlorine/chloramine is neutralised - you have a pretty effective pair (the ascorbate ion and hydronium ion) for neutralising O2. Vitamin C is known as a a good O2 scavenger but I'm not sure if sodium ascorbate is preferred over ascorbic acid. I agree that DHAA would not be much use as an oxygen scavenger but I'm not sure under what conditions it would go back to the ascorbate ion.


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## MHB (14/10/16)

Don't be frightened of the HCl and the likes that are ending up in the brew. We are talking very small amounts 2-4ppm when we make salt additions we are adding (well it varies) but a minimum of 10 times as much, often 50 times.
The relatively small amount of extra ions in solution probably wont matter much either way, but the Chlorine/Chloramine will.
Mark


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## Adr_0 (15/10/16)

MHB said:


> Don't be frightened of the HCl and the likes that are ending up in the brew. We are talking very small amounts 2-4ppm when we make salt additions we are adding (well it varies) but a minimum of 10 times as much, often 50 times.
> The relatively small amount of extra ions in solution probably wont matter much either way, but the Chlorine/Chloramine will.
> Mark


That's gotta be pretty close to the most wisest advice I've heard on water.


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