# Supporting Independent Breweries



## manticle (20/10/12)

Just had a conversation with the owner of an independent brewery who suggested to me that the larger multinationals are trying to squeeze out their place on retail shelves. Supposedly this has been the case since Kirin took over Little World.

I would presume that this would affect all national, independent breweries.

In the interests of maintaining diversity, please consider buying at least one stubby of an independently owned AU brewery each time you go to the bottle shop and/or asking about whether the outlet might consider stocking whichever independent comes to your mind.

I'm not asking you to buy beer you hate or stop buying beer you love - just consider adding one or two in along with the rest.

Breweries that make infected or bland rubbish that should be burned with fire are to be excepted - I'm talking breweries who have an ethos or potential that is worth maintaining.

Cheers


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## [email protected] (20/10/12)

Home brewing has taught my taste a lot about freshness when it comes to beer.
So much so that i am finding it increasingly hard to consume stale or poorly handled beer and even worse stale mass produced beer. Eg: Coopers on tap can be quite nice when it is fresh.

I try to encourage others to buy and drink beers from local / semi local but most of the time it just falls on deaf ears.
People just want to drink lots of cold beer and don't care what it tastes like or where its comes from and where the profits end up.

I am trying to get my new local, an RSL to at least stock 4 pines PA. Its brewed half an hour down the road...FFS! Closest i can get to a bottle of decent beer is 50 whippings PA bottle that's been sitting around for who knows how long and owned by the Japanese. 

Otherwise i will just stay at home and drink my "psycho" beer alone in a dark corner.


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## Kingbrownbrewing (20/10/12)

As a sales rep for a small family owned Australian brewery, I can say that this is absolutely the case.

I find it so hard to find any space in fridges that hasn't been 'bought' by one of the big guys.

I have to rely on my the retail managers knowing and loving good beer, or else I have no chance.

It makes it very hard to get independent retailers to stock my beer.

BUT, if you make enough noise at your local, whether it be a pub/ bottleshop/ bar or bowls club in my case, if you whinge enough they will get good beer in for you, as long as you drink it.

They are putting little creatures pale on for me in the coming months, as their Lion agreement allows it.


Everyone make some noise for the little guys!!!


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## winkle (20/10/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> As a sales rep for a small family owned Australian brewery, I can say that this is absolutely the case.
> 
> I find it so hard to find any space in fridges that hasn't been 'bought' by one of the big guys.
> 
> ...



If your bowls club is doing that, then come over and annoy my one


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (20/10/12)

I'm not buying anything owned by LNN-kirin or SABmillerfosters, including little creatures.

I'm also boycotting sail and anchor's new range, partially because it is owned by woolies and i shouldn't be paying the same as vale beers, for home brand beer, and because i tried their diacetyl laden, sulfury GA, and thought it confirmed they were doing what the two majors are, which is passing off rubbish beer as craft beer(yes, James Squire I'm looking at you)


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## DU99 (20/10/12)

where does this place COOPERS


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## [email protected] (20/10/12)

DU99 said:


> where does this place COOPERS



They are where they are. Australia's leading independent brewery, the buck stops here.

I will always try the Pale on tap, but bugger me i have had some stale or poorly handles shit, or dirty lines ect and get a fecking great hangover.

Can usually find a bottle of sparkling which i enjoy poured properly, but overall there is only so much coopers yeast character i can take.
I really wish they would step outside the box and do something a little different...different style, different yeast. They have the ability make and distribute some really nice beers.


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## Nick JD (20/10/12)

I'd buy more of it if it weren't so damn expensive. 

Yeah, sure - it's expensive because blah blah blah ... but why would I pay the same for a locally brewed, say, Hefeweizen - when it's the same price as Schofferhoffer? That came from Germany, where the style was invented, that's perfect? 

That's my beef. The Gage Roads "atomic" PA I had a few weeks ago was COMPLETE SHITE. I got a free sixpack from 4 Pines because I spent money on infected bottles (TBH, their stout was good, but the rest were average).

I just always find myself thinking, "Hmmmm, Pilsner brewed locally for $3.75, or Pilsner brewed in Plzen for $3.25? Hmmmmm." Duh.

Manticle - give me a list of Aussie Micro beers that are better than the styles they are trying to copy and I'll start at the top. My point is: I don't think many Micro beers are worth buying.


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## bum (20/10/12)

manticle said:


> I'm not asking you to buy beer you hate


There you go, Nick.


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## Nick JD (20/10/12)

bum said:


> There you go, Nick.



I don't hate these beers; I dislike paying the same, or more for them than the originals they are copying badly. 

That's one thing Coopers does have: their beer is not a pale (sorry) immitation of a foreign style that is on the shelf right below ... for cheaper.

I challenge anyone to tell me of an Aussie Micro that is the best (for that style - CPA not included) in the bottlo.


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## bum (20/10/12)

Yeah, it is a slightly less pale (same) version of local macro shit and costs more. I don't see your point at all.

He's flat out said he's not trying to get anyone to buy beer they don;t want to buy. You don't want to buy it. Don't.


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## Nick JD (20/10/12)

bum said:


> Yeah, it is a slightly less pale (same) version of local macro shit and costs more. I don't see your point at all.
> 
> He's flat out said he's not trying to get anyone to buy beer they don;t want to buy. You don't want to buy it. Don't.



That's not my point - I'd buy it if it was better, or cheaper. 

I'm struggling to find one that satisfies either criteria. 

Unless you've been under a rock, that's how capitalism works. Breweries aren't charities.


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## bum (20/10/12)

If you're drawing that long of a bow then I'm sure you can be provided with a list of micro breweries that make "better" beer than what the market drinks quite rapidly. Basically everyone but Buckleys.

There's tonnes of good breweries making beer that is worth buying. Murrays, Brew Boys, Kooinda, Feral, Holgate, Temple. You don't like fresh beer? Don't buy it. You like stale examples of boring beer? Get some Euro imports from Uncle Dan's. You give a shit about being able to buy grain? Maybe you'd like to keep the local industry running.


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## manticle (20/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Manticle - give me a list of Aussie Micro beers that are better than the styles they are trying to copy and I'll start at the top. My point is: I don't think many Micro beers are worth buying.




I understand and agree with the intention behind your point. Unfortunately I think you missed mine.

Certainly wasn't suggesting 'X is better than Y' nor that you should choose hawthorn pilsner over Trumer.

Just buy a stubby every once in a while to help stop Kirin deciding the only easily available craft beer you can buy is owned by them and the fridges they bought at woolworths/Dan's/BWS/Liquorland.

A shop that stocks truly independent AU beer will hopefully also stock truly independent Belgian, French, German and/or Polish beer.

And while there are some rubbish Micro brews available here, there are some great beers and breweries too. Beyond whether or not they are better or cheaper, I am suggesting look for the potential, buy one beer next time you buy a six pack of something else.

Or don't.

Not hard.


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## verysupple (20/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Yeah, sure - it's expensive because blah blah blah ... but why would I pay the same for a locally brewed, say, Hefeweizen - when it's the same price as Schofferhoffer? That came from Germany, where the style was invented, that's perfect?



Totally agree, mate. I thought I'd try a locally brewed (Yarra Valley if memory serves) hefe last night. Can't recall what it was called, which is a shame 'cos I'd like to save you all the waste of time and money drinking it. At first I thought, "Oh good, they just gave me a bottle and a glass so I can pour it properly." then I tasted it and wished I hadn't spent $9 on a stubbie. Got a Croucher ale of some sort after that and quite enjoyed that. Having said all that, I really support GOOD locally brewed stuff when I find it. I think I paid roughly $90 for a slab of some local ale recently.


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## manticle (20/10/12)

Thread was never started to rate AU hefe against schofferhoffer or Erdinger or whinge about prices or infections or anything like that.

Do people still have the ability to read and comprehend or has that gone the way of the Dodo too?


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## Nick JD (20/10/12)

manticle said:


> Or don't.
> 
> Not hard.



Why can't we discuss the merits or problems with your Brewery Charity Scheme? Is there a rule on forums that a request made is polar? That we may only either do, or not do? 

Products must win buyers on their promise to be better or cheaper than the competition - I see little evidence of the Megaswilleries ousting a beer that deserves to remain on the shelves. The product slips when the buyer is "buying local" not "buying best" - this is socialism, not capitalism. If they "have their market" they give their market swill. This attitude is why we have VB. 

LC(PA) got bought because they made a great beer. There are a few others - but we all know them.

Let's have a quick look at the Aussie wine on the shelves of Dans and ask ourselves, "Why is the same not happening (happened) with Aussie beer?" The answer to that question is where you need to focus your beervangelic energies.

Just to make sure you know - I am fully behind your push for maximising variety in our available beer selection - I just think you might be going about it in the worng way.


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## verysupple (20/10/12)

manticle said:


> Thread was never started to rate AU hefe against schofferhoffer or Erdinger or whinge about prices or infections or anything like that.
> 
> Do people still have the ability to read and comprehend or has that gone the way of the Dodo too?



Yeah, sorry mate, you're totally right. Just sort of followed the trend of comments. I wasn't meaning to whinge about prices etc or that we don't do it as good as the Germans. I was trying to say that sometimes you get disappointed. In actual fact, I will just buy whatever is good regardless of price. My local ocasionally gives free tastings and I commit to buy before I ask the price (silly move). Just to make things clear, I really try to support the local micros.


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## eamonnfoley (20/10/12)

If the local beer is good, we will buy it.


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## soundawake (20/10/12)

Beer4U said:


> I will always try the Pale on tap, but bugger me i have had some stale or poorly handles shit, or dirty lines ect and get a fecking great hangover.



Got a funny story that is slightly off topic, but anyway - 

Around 10 or more years ago I became the duty manager of a particular university's tavern. We were all new management - the union that owned the tavern sacked the lot.

Myself and the other managers soon realised that the beer lines hadn't been cleaned for a very, very VERY long but unknown amount of time. The system was an extremely old temprite system with exclusively Coopers on tap, all of them.

So the first thing we did was clean the lines. For close to six months after, we got nothing but complaint after complaint that we had changed the taste of their beloved Coopers beers, for the worse. Some people swore to never drink there again, such was the revolt. They just weren't used to clean fresh beer!

Also Coopers quality control wasn't the same back then, 1 Pale keg out of 10 was sent back infected or off. or very very muddy.


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## manticle (20/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Why can't we discuss the merits or problems with your Brewery Charity Scheme? Is there a rule on forums that a request made is polar? That we may only either do, or not do?
> 
> Products must win buyers on their promise to be better or cheaper than the competition - I see little evidence of the Megaswilleries ousting a beer that deserves to remain on the shelves. The product slips when the buyer is "buying local" not "buying best" - this is socialism, not capitalism. If they "have their market" they give their market swill. This attitude is why we have VB.
> 
> ...



No I'm afraid you are still missing my point.

IF you see a beer, brewed in AU, that you think has some potential (ie forward thinking), buy a stubby to avoid not ever having any choice beyond squires/LC as our answer to good beer.

Of course you can discuss merits of something realy, really simplistic if it pleases you but at least stick to the point.

I, like you, often avoid AU beers because I've had my fair share of gushers, crap or would just rather buy originals as opposed to imitations. Never tried a good AU dubbel for example and would sooner drink westmalle dubbel than Beechworth.

I'm not talking about supporting AU over import though. I'm talking about making an effort to add an AU to your shopping basket (one bottle) that you don't think is complete rubbish to stop it from getting sunk. If you think it's rubbish, I would in no way encourage you to buy it - rubbish needs to be thrown out.

What I don't want to see is the market dictated to us by the big players - the exact opposite of your slightly naiive summary of what capitalism is (as opposed to what it should be). I quite like what it should be. Shit beer at the bottom, good beer at the top. Unfortunately there's a bit more to it.


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

manticle said:


> I'm talking about making an effort to add an AU to your shopping basket (one bottle) that you don't think is complete rubbish...



Again, I will only do this if it is the best example of the style, or significantly cheaper than the best example. 

Pray tell, Mants - what's in your shopping basket in the next 5 shopping trips? I'd like to try your "not rubbish" list, because currently, I've lost the faith to buy any Aussie Micro if there's the archetype of the style at the same price on the shelf above.


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## pk.sax (21/10/12)

I'd stick a stubble or two of mountain goat hightail ale in my basket every now and then. Duke's my wife's bitter is rather nice. Hargreaves hill esb if can find any. Grand ridge stout and moonshine or whatever it's called if I'm in the mood for that. Murray's angry man or whale ale.

I'd also buy some lc rogers in the hope they keep making that beer.

Haven't been used to tons of choice for some time so my list is rather short. I buy by the singles or 6pack anyway.


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## tanked84 (21/10/12)

> Totally agree, mate. I thought I'd try a locally brewed (Yarra Valley if memory serves) hefe last night. Can't recall what it was called, which is a shame 'cos I'd like to save you all the waste of time and money drinking it. At first I thought, "Oh good, they just gave me a bottle and a glass so I can pour it properly." then I tasted it and wished I hadn't spent $9 on a stubbie. Got a Croucher ale of some sort after that and quite enjoyed that. Having said all that, I really support GOOD locally brewed stuff when I find it. I think I paid roughly $90 for a slab of some local ale recently.



I'm assuming your talking about Hargreaves hill hefeweizen from the yarra valley. It costs $4 at Safeway, which is still cheaper than the German ones.
If you paid $9 I'm guessing you got it from a winery or some wank off restaurant.
Of course its not going to be better than the German ones, they have nearly a 1000 years more brewing experience.
In my opinion its not a bad drop, tastes fresher than the imports.
If not disregard this post.


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## [email protected] (21/10/12)

Yes more :icon_offtopic: BUT FFS

Give me a FRESH, well brewed and handled local beer that may or may not be the worlds greatest example of a " style" (which comes down to individual interpretation of style GUIDELINES) any day of the week over stale imports.

If you have tasted fresh examples of euro beers in or near their country of origin, then you would know that not much of what we get here is any good. 
Well handled kegs being an exception.


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## manticle (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Again, I will only do this if it is the best example of the style, or significantly cheaper than the best example.



OK.



> Pray tell, Mants - what's in your shopping basket in the next 5 shopping trips? I'd like to try your "not rubbish" list, because currently, I've lost the faith to buy any Aussie Micro if there's the archetype of the style at the same price on the shelf above.



Pray tell?

Rightio.

Probably a bottle of trois mont, some fullers, a few schloss eggenbrger hopfen konigs and a hawthorn or two. Might chuck in a Jameson's as well - I'll see how I feel on the day.


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## bruce86 (21/10/12)

has the hop hog nick?. i try to grab something new everytime i go to bottlo. (bit strapped for choice here tho) dont usually care bout the style either. You wont know if they have made a great beer if you dont try it.


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## verysupple (21/10/12)

@Tanked

Yeah you're right it was Hargreaves Hill hefe, I just couldn't remember till someone said it. And yeah, I was at a cocktail bar with friends but didn't feel like a cocktail that early in the evening. I think the funny thing about that beer is that if I thought I was drinking a German style lager it would have been good. But as it's supposted to be a wheat I didn't think much of it because I didn't get any of that nice breadyness from the wheat or that nice sweetness coming through from the pils.


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## mckenry (21/10/12)

OK, I've had to shoot right to the end on the phone.
Can someone put up a list or link to what is australian owned and independant please?
I've lost track of kirin owning lion owning tooheys owning..... blah blah blah


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## bruce86 (21/10/12)

Not sure if these help mckerney LC isnt on the lion list but i think its just not up to date so could be others missing. (it is wiki)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_(Australasian_company)

http://cub.com.au/beer/



*didnt know knappstein and new norcia were under this mob as well. and leffe BUL


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## poppa joe (21/10/12)

Just bought a bottle of Hobgoblin...Getting cold..
The Bottle shop in Berry has a massive collection of overseas beers..
Took quite a while to make up my mind which one too buy...
It is worth a look if going through that way..
Cheers
PJ
I put the Tharkstons Old Peculiar back and took the Hobgoblin... :huh:


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## MHB (21/10/12)

One unstated advantage of supporting the local micro movement and we all should is that it helps us as brewers.
Do you really think there are over 100 different malts and god knows how many different hops available to support the Home Brew market?
These are available to us as home brewers because they are being supplied to craft/micro breweries we just get access.
I well recall when I started AG brewing there were only 5 malts and 1 hop available and even they took a bit of finding, over 20 years ago a bag of Schooner from Adelaide Malting cost me $60+ by the time it arrived we as brewers have never had it so good and a lot of that is down to micro breweries coming on line.

People like Wes Smith and others who started the ball rolling, today there are a bunch of players, but remember that if we dont have a vital and growing craft industry the availability of malt and hops could easily go the other way and as much as we would like to think otherwise home brew cant support the range now on the market.

Try everything available to you, if its good say so (loudly and often) if its got problems tell the brewer, I dont think there is a craft brewer in this country that isnt trying to make the best beer they can, some obviously do a better job than others but they need our support and we need them.
Mark


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> One unstated advantage of supporting the local micro movement and we all should is that it helps us as brewers.
> Do you really think there are over 100 different malts and god knows how many different hops available to support the Home Brew market?
> These are available to us as home brewers because they are being supplied to craft/micro breweries we just get access.
> I well recall when I started AG brewing there were only 5 malts and 1 hop available and even they took a bit of finding, over 20 years ago a bag of Schooner from Adelaide Malting cost me $60+ by the time it arrived we as brewers have never had it so good and a lot of that is down to micro breweries coming on line.
> ...



Great Post.


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## Rowy (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> One unstated advantage of supporting the local micro movement and we all should is that it helps us as brewers.
> Do you really think there are over 100 different malts and god knows how many different hops available to support the "Home Brew" market?
> These are available to us as home brewers because they are being supplied to craft/micro breweries we just get access.
> I well recall when I started AG brewing there were only 5 malts and 1 hop available and even they took a bit of finding, over 20 years ago a bag of Schooner from Adelaide Malting cost me $60+ by the time it arrived we as brewers have never had it so good and a lot of that is down to micro breweries coming on line.
> ...




And that gentlemen just about kills any argument against. The fors have it. Least ways for me they do!


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> One unstated advantage of supporting the local micro movement and we all should is that it helps us as brewers.
> Do you really think there are over 100 different malts and god knows how many different hops available to support the Home Brew market?
> These are available to us as home brewers because they are being supplied to craft/micro breweries we just get access.
> I well recall when I started AG brewing there were only 5 malts and 1 hop available and even they took a bit of finding, over 20 years ago a bag of Schooner from Adelaide Malting cost me $60+ by the time it arrived we as brewers have never had it so good and a lot of that is down to micro breweries coming on line.
> ...



If I don't support Australian Microbreweries I will no longer be able to buy ingredients for making homebrew? :lol: :lol:


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## MHB (21/10/12)

Nick has it ever occurred to you that every time you post complete shit it devalues everything you have to say?
Clearly you are impervious to any form of argument that doesnt conform to your preconceived ideas, but I believe there are good reasons to support craft brewing and that doing so is mutually beneficial.
Mark


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## Mike L'Itorus (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> Nick has it ever occurred to you that every time you post complete shit it devalues everything you have to say?
> Clearly you are impervious to any form of argument that doesn't conform to your preconceived ideas, but I believe there are good reasons to support craft brewing and that doing so is mutually beneficial.
> Mark



Ok, it looks like I'll have to take one for the team, and state the obvious:

Nick. Stop being a stupid ****. You're quite possibly the biggest fuckwit on the internet. Congratulations. You win. Hope it makes you feel big. My 2c, though, is that you need professional help. Ask the shrink to help you with your narcisistic tendancies. 

Mods: please dont delete the post in it's entirety. Edit the expletives with hash marks, astrixes, etc....but deleting outright removes context. I presume I'll be suspended on this one, so see you all in a few days/weeks.


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## np1962 (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> One unstated advantage of supporting the local micro movement and we all should is that it helps us as brewers.
> Do you really think there are over 100 different malts and god knows how many different hops available to support the Home Brew market?
> These are available to us as home brewers because they are being supplied to craft/micro breweries we just get access.
> I well recall when I started AG brewing there were only 5 malts and 1 hop available and even they took a bit of finding, over 20 years ago a bag of Schooner from Adelaide Malting cost me $60+ by the time it arrived we as brewers have never had it so good and a lot of that is down to micro breweries coming on line.
> ...


Well said MHB


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

It's bad internet form to attack the poster when they disagree with your argument. 

I will not "support" microbreweries because they have created shops like Craftbrewer - who supply awsome ingredients to the homebrewer. I will support them if they make a great product.

Neither will I support Apple because they invented the tablet computer. I will buy a android-based mobile device _because my wallet is not a charity source for commercial enterprises making shit products._

Again - it's bad form to attack the person when you disagree with their post. Attack the post.


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> I believe there are good reasons to support craft brewing and that doing so is mutually beneficial.



Support away. Me, I'll support when they make a great beer at a decent price. 

At the moment I'm running about and 8:1 ratio on shit:good Aussie Micro beers - and my whole point is _I will not support a bad product because the industry has opened up products to homebrewers._ That's ******* stupid, and if a product is purchased for reasons other than it being the best value/quality for money ... a moron is buying it.

Supporting products on merit of their industry and not their quality is exactly what happened to the American auto industry.


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## pk.sax (21/10/12)

In general, there are tons of people that can follow a great thing but would never in a million years take a step forward on their own. There would always be big breweries able to turn great beers into crowd pleasers at min cost, they aren't usually the ones innovating. The little guy might turn out a batch of gushers every now and then but he also brings out variety and some rippers. If you don't support them with a bigger heart they will eventually go under. Don't support the ones that absolutely deserve to go under. Some, however, have very tasty brews among some crap piss they offer to the masses. Occasionally, the beer even travels well. I barely buy pale beers from the shop. Buy smart and quit blaming the brewery.


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## Mike L'Itorus (21/10/12)

Nick


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

What we really need to see is tax laws letting Aussie Micros emulate the American Micro model. 

Until that day, all Aussie Micros will be selling expensive beers that aren't as good as the beers they replicate because they are forced to cut costs - and to sell their beers at an unrealistic price with respect to the foreign competition.

I refuse to support this model - and in doing so, am supporting the production of average beer.

Instead of "buying a stubbie" and perpetuating a struggling industry, write a letter to those who have made it so damn hard for Micros to make a profit on their product.


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='964596' date='Oct 21 2012, 05:05 PM']Nick

[/quote]

  I love it!


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

Here's an example.

An Aussie Micro decides to make a Bohemian Pilsner. Now, 40 IBUs with only Czech Saaz? Ooooh, costly. Moravian Barley, floor malted? Ooooh - nah. 

Triple decoction? Hell no! Where TF are we gonna do that! Store it in Oak! Get out of here! Lager it for 4 months? What are we - made of money?

Let's use BB Pale and PoR and chuck in a little bit of Saaz at the end and lager it for a week and a half. Sweet - the morons will never know the difference! Sure they won't ... but the homebrewers will.

And Pilsner Urquell is $15.79 a six pack at Dans. The Aussie Micro will be $20 for a 4 pack.

**** that.


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## MHB (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Snip
> Again - it's bad form to attack the person when you disagree with their post. Attack the post.


Considering some of your posts thats risible 
Apart from that, this is basically why I disagree with you.
1/ How can you tell is an Aussie craft brewery is making good beer unless you buy it from time to time, which is rather the point of the thread.
2/ who wants a copy of another beer? Urquell do a wonderful job of making Urquell, I am far more interested in someone making a pilsner but taking a new look at it, good pilsner doesnt have to be a clone of something you like to be good beer.
3/ malt and hops dont even make the top 5 in the cost of making beer Excise, Labour, Energy, plant capitalisation, packaging and often even waste disposal are far more important costs, and small businesses are going to be far more heavily impacted by them than are larger operations
4/ following from your statements, all of Australias micro breweries should shut down immediately because they will never be able to either make exact copies of your favourite beer or make a fair imitation at a discount price.

Personally I suspect that you miss the whole point of the craft beer movement, which is to my mind to explore new and interesting styles, to craft unique beers using (in many cases) Australian ingredients to make uniquely Australian beer. I and probably everyone here (well-1) would I think want to encourage the development of the craft industry, we all know that some of the efforts arent world class, nor were I suspect the early efforts coming out of the American craft scene, but if no one drank their beer it wouldnt be where it is today.
All over the world there are small independent brewers struggling to make a living, some will and some wont that is the nature of business, they are also turning out some of the finest beer it has been my pleasure to drink.
I have the good fortune to know a Belgian beer importer; we have been getting to try some of the beer coming from the Belgian craft brewers, unlike anything coming from anywhere else including the much vaunted American micros, the same can be said of the better Australian efforts it is truly unique.
If we want the craft brewing movement to continue and to improve we need to support it.
Mark


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## Mardoo (21/10/12)

The point Manticle raises is that if you control beer distribution you control the range of beers on the market. In the States distribution and retail have always been separate, and the lock that the majors have on the market here is the control of distribution, whether that's your Lion-sponsored local or your Woolies/Coles warts. Coming from Portland, Oregon 15 years ago I was utterly shocked that beer brands owned pubs and thus controlled what I could drink there.

If you support your local independent craft beer store you'll help keep the choices on the market, whatever you buy. If you don't have the choice of a local CBS then Manticle's suggestion is your best option. No retailer will keep selling what doesn't sell.

Having watched the rise of the craft beer industry in the States I can assure Nick there'll be alot more of the half-assed expensive Aussie micros (some of which have been named in this thread in my opinion) who will eventually go out of business, a whole lot more, before quality craft brewers have a chance to stabilise their businesses and forge ahead. But if we don't patronise the independent distribution channels we won't have the chance of a Carlton Draft in a uni fridge of developing a truly independent brewing scene.


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## /// (21/10/12)

I'm all about supporting local and the small guys. And variety is the spice of life, and so some overseas beer is also not a bad thing. And, large companies are not bad; I worked for one and it was great. I now work for a small brewer, and it is the best. 

But, one side to consider is that not all brewers are great sales people. Case in point, an opportunity for a small Sydney brewer in Saturdays SMH to sing the praises of his beer. All he did was talk about other breweries rather than himself and his beer ... wasted several column centimeters doing this ...

The rhetoric about big bad companies having nasty sales tactics and being predatory is immature at best. Good sales methods can be employed in any sized company, and is the only way big companies, which were one day small companies, grew to their current size by having sales strategy that worked. If these big guys can throw their weight around and exert pressure, it is often because of the strength of their relationships with customers. Basic Sales 101 there.

Sell beer to make it, not make beer to sell it. Do it any other way and your doomed.


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## Mardoo (21/10/12)

Oh no, it's not that large companies are bad (except when they try to eliminate competition and homogenise the market  ). Industrialised brewers and their distribution networks are simply established far, far beyond the degree to which craft brewers and their networks are. If we want a different option we need to support that.

I work in the retail end of liquor distribution, and although rhetoric about good sales methods is good in idealised theories, on the coal face of liquor sales if you tell them it's good the customer will buy it, at least 70% of the time. I see this every day of my working life, and experiment with it. Know why touts work in front of restaurants? Because people are afraid to say no. Often times the lynchpin of the strength of the relationship with the customer hinges on the customer's ignorance or fear of seeming ignorant.

By supporting independent distribution we get a different story out there, and a chance to make suggestions that educate about craft beer.

It ain't about who's big and who's small, it's about who's supporting the right to choose.


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## /// (21/10/12)

Often times the lynchpin of the strength of the relationship with the customer hinges on the customer's ignorance or fear of seeming ignorant.

So as we make all our purchasing decisions through a day, week or year, we are fearful of being found out as ignorant. Lets ignore the years of research on this and take stock.

So retail is the only market via little brown or green bottles? Theres no other place, product, position or price considerations on how we sell a product?


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## petesbrew (21/10/12)

I needed a cold 6 pack yesterday for a byo party - small bottlo down the road has a small, but reasonably good, selection. What did I go for? The Budvar on special for $15.
Tasted great. Then I saw the Best Before date... June. 
I drank it anyway. I'm so ashamed of myself. I should know by now to check the date.

Good thread, Manticle. I always love making an excuse to head down to Dans, 1st Choice, eg SWMBO is always running low on wine!
The local independent boys do need to be tried too. If you don't enjoy it, fair enough, but I always think it's important to try it in the first place.


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

MHB said:


> Considering some of your posts that’s risible
> Apart from that, this is basically why I disagree with you.
> 1/ How can you tell is an Aussie craft brewery is making good beer unless you buy it from time to time, which is rather the point of the thread.
> 
> ...



The real issue with beer in Australia is a political one. Focus your energies on that instead of flogging a dead horse - then we can all have huge variety in the pub and bottle store. Australia's apathy and eventual love (and indeed the world's) for the rise of the Duopoly is not going to fall with a bunch of yobbos with five buck notes at Dan Murphys. Brewing oligarchies can't be bought out by a few thousand homebrewers; those homebrewers would be much better off petitioning for a Micro Tax.

But that would make far too much sense for this forum.


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## pk.sax (21/10/12)

I think you are missing the point pretty much like most statistical/risk management studies do.

It's the human factor that matters. When poster above says people are too afraid to be found out to be ignorant, ask yourself, that is because someone works actively at creating an image out there that makes them so. It's only fair to push back. A little by little. People see you buying beer. The checkout people remember seeing you walk out with beer. They discuss, comment and re-recommend stuff to people. Things don't just happen, it takes effort.

All Manticle said was that if we'd consciously pick up one or two each time we go for a box of whatever. A lot of people can't, that's partly why they brew. A lot others indulge ourselves with a few every now and then. If we could put just a little more to independent Aussie micro beer it adds up. It might sound 'feel good' but that is pretty much how it starts.
If nothing else, paying that extra dollar is great feedback to the brewer, maybe they should cut back on the less popular ones and make more of their better beers. If you just pick the import over the local just for price then you are so obviously the wrong audience for this.


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

practicalfool said:


> I think you are missing the point pretty much like most statistical/risk management studies do.
> 
> It's the human factor that matters. When poster above says people are too afraid to be found out to be ignorant, ask yourself, that is because someone works actively at creating an image out there that makes them so. It's only fair to push back. A little by little. People see you buying beer. The checkout people remember seeing you walk out with beer. They discuss, comment and re-recommend stuff to people. Things don't just happen, it takes effort.
> 
> ...



Missing my point.

Here is my point: I would LOVE to see Aussie Micros DOMINATING the market with beer that was as good as anything from the countries the style they are brewing originated.

But supporting Micros _for their industry, not their product_ is dumb.


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## Guysmiley54 (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> The real issue with beer in Australia is a political one. Focus your energies on that instead of flogging a dead horse - then we can all have huge variety in the pub and bottle store. Australia's apathy and eventual love (and indeed the world's) for the rise of the Duopoly is not going to fall with a bunch of yobbos with five buck notes at Dan Murphys. Brewing oligarchies can't be bought out by a few thousand homebrewers; those homebrewers would be much better off petitioning for a Micro Tax.
> 
> But that would make far too much sense for this forum.



OT...

This deserves its own forum. Tax excise laws are appalling for beer brewers. Winemakers get up to $500,000 refund on excise at the end of the tax year why can't beer even get half of that? I would support any push to lobby and gather support for new tax laws.


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## dammag (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Missing my point.
> 
> Here is my point: I would LOVE to see Aussie Micros DOMINATING the market with beer that was as good as anything from the countries the style they are brewing originated.
> 
> But supporting Micros _for their industry, not their product_ is dumb.



Maybe supporting the industry isn't dumb. What has to come first? The chicken or the egg?


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## bignath (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Here is my point: I would LOVE to see Aussie Micros DOMINATING the market with beer that was as good as anything from the countries the style they are brewing originated.



Nick, why do you keep coming back with a comparison from aussie micro vs style origin. It's been mentioned a lot already that that's not the point.
This thread feels like your reading way too much into it mate.

slightly ot,
when i go into Dan's (i have limited options for beer retail in this hick town) i often grab a bottle of something i've never tried before. More times than not, it's an aussie product.
Sure i look at what style it's roughly aimed at, but at the end of the day, if it doesn't quite tick all of the boxes for it's "intended" style/audience, i'll still gladly buy it repeatedly if on the most basic level "i liked it".


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> Nick, why do you keep coming back with a comparison from aussie micro vs style origin.



If they write HEFEWEIZEN on the label and $3.50, then I expect it should be damn close to the ones that say YEASTWHEAT in german on them for $3.50.

Is there a rule that says you can make bland Hefeweizens and expect an instant market if you're making them in Australia?

If you write KOLSCH on it ... actually google it, you're not even legally allowed to do that. 

Holy crap I had one last week that had PALE ALE and hinted it was "American" on the label. WTF? Not ... even ... close.


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## bignath (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> If they write HEFEWEIZEN on the label and $3.50, then I expect it should be damn close to the ones that say YEASTWHEAT in german on them for $3.50.
> 
> Is there a rule that says you can make bland Hefeweizens and expect an instant market if you're making them in Australia?
> 
> If you write KOLSCH on it ... actually google it, you're not even legally allowed to do that.



yeah that's all fine, but if you were to buy the oz wheaty, you've at least given it a chance. Even if it was shit, atleast it sends a message to aussie micros that we're prepared to try their offerings instead of just turning our nose up at it.

If it was crap, go right ahead and tell them. They aren't likely to try and improve anything if no one ever tells them it sucks balls.


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## Nick JD (21/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> If it was crap, go right ahead and tell them. They aren't likely to try and improve anything if no one ever tells them it sucks balls.



That's just it. It didn't suck balls. 

It was the same price as the one with like, a date on it, like 1756 or something. That tastes like Scarlett Johanssen's nipples. 

But it was kinda, meh. And I wish I bought the German one. With the nipples and the WHOOOOT! Banana and Cloves and BUBBLEGUMS! 

But I supported local and went, wooo .... t. 

I guess all my rantings in this thread are summerisable in a simple statement:_ I'm over popping the cap off a Aussie Micro and expecting, "wow". _


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## bignath (21/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> It was the same price as the one with like, a date on it, like 1756 or something. That tastes like Scarlett Johanssen's nipples.



:lol: :icon_drool2:


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## black_labb (21/10/12)

I think your arguement is a bit shortsighted. The consumer/provider system is quite complex and you are over simplifying it. Vote with your wallet.

I get the impression that you are more of a lager drinker as well which may explain your discontent with microbreweries. there is a big emphasis on full flavoured ales, mostly american style ales which I can also find frustrating (though my preference is for english/belgian ales).


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## Nick JD (22/10/12)

black_labb said:


> I get the impression that you are more of a lager drinker as well which may explain your discontent with microbreweries.



Your impression unfortunately is wrong - but I appreciate your typing that.


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## manticle (22/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Missing my point.
> 
> Here is my point: I would LOVE to see Aussie Micros DOMINATING the market with beer that was as good as anything from the countries the style they are brewing originated.
> 
> But supporting Micros _for their industry, not their product_ is dumb.



No-one should be missing your point now Nick since you've belaboured it so much. Your last sentence does however suggest that you have missed the point of thread which I have no interest in repeating. It's there in text, should you wish to find it. I'll say one last time what it wasn't though: it was never about supporting micros solely for industry over product.

A contrary perspective to mine is welcome (for example /// who comes from a place of experience on the topic) and if discussion is going to ensue it would be great to get some more perspective from that end.


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## shaunous (22/10/12)

foles said:


> If the local beer is good, we will buy it.




Amen...



I do as you are saying Manticle, buy the odd couple of local/different beers when the wife heads to Dans to stock up on wine. Mass breweries beers at Dans when they are on special are very hard to pass up on price, to just have in the fridge/pantry for them social events and visits, even if they are bland in comparison to HB. 


p.s. I got a 6'er of the Burleigh Brewing Co's HEF a few weeks back, I wish I never did, struggled through 2 and threw the rest at my alcoholic neighbour who would drink metho if it was toned down with OJ, and he even threw them back at me, I either got a bad batch, or they are meant to taste that way.. I'll try them another time to re-evaluate..


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## tricache (22/10/12)

shaunous said:


> p.s. I got a 6'er of the Burleigh Brewing Co's HEF a few weeks back, I wish I never did, struggled through 2 and threw the rest at my alcoholic neighbour who would drink metho if it was toned down with OJ, and he even threw them back at me, I either got a bad batch, or they are meant to taste that way.. I'll try them another time to re-evaluate..



My first taste of HEF was unbelievable! Loved every drop....but got another 6 pack of it and it was totally different! Bad as anything, struggled to get through a bottle.

I love Burleigh Brewing (for obvious reasons) but I think they might have had some dramas with HEF at one stage


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## Liam_snorkel (22/10/12)

I think you got a bad/mishandled batch. I've got HEF a few times from my local bottle-o and each time it has been superb and fresh tasting.


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## shaunous (22/10/12)

Well i'm heading down the Goldy right now to catch up with a mate, i'll grab another 6pack and see how I go.

Sounds as though they may have had a HEF issue a while back...


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## ian ulrick (22/10/12)

I like it when I do get to find a new Aussie brew. Pop the top, have a sniff then a good swig. If I don't like it I'll source out there other styles if they have them and give them ago. I've had some that wasn't to my taste when others said they were pleased with the brew. Each to there own I say. I'm also not too fussed over the cost as I can understand turnover and excise. The ones that I like I'll find out where their Brew Pub or Brewery is and will visit whilst in that area (sometimes to many visits  ) and have it out of the tap. I must admit though that I mainly drink Aussie owned Ales (with an occasional import) and like to keep most of my coin in the country.


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## Blitzer (22/10/12)

Well I quite enjoy HEF, apparently world class judges also enjoy a good HEF?

Link 1

Link 2


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## pcmfisher (22/10/12)

What a great way to try different beers!

If a micros beer is good enough, people will buy it.

If enough people buy it, the micro will be bought out by one of the big boys.

Unfortunate really.


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## tricache (22/10/12)

Wow there you go! That is pretty awesome!


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## Sunshine_Brewer (22/10/12)

I remember drinking fresh dark wheat beer at a small independent brewery locally (SCB), this same beer got a gold at 2008 AIBA and came within a bees dick of knocking a dunkelweizen from Wiehenstephan off its perch at the same 2008 AIBA. 

Now hold the phone, an aussie micro knocking out 10HL batches manages to brew a dark wheat beer almost and arguably as good as a brewery that has been doing this for how many hundreds of years. The beer was sensational and what happened to it? this beer should have been an aussie revelation but NO! It fell through the cracks and was never seen again, why? NO SUPPORT. <_<


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## insane_rosenberg (22/10/12)

The AIBA beer results for this year.  In case anyone want to do the research before going to the bottle-o and supporting the quality beer makers.


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## tricache (22/10/12)

Sunshine_Brewer said:


> I remember drinking fresh dark wheat beer at a small independent brewery locally (SCB), this same beer got a gold at 2008 AIBA and came within a bees dick of knocking a dunkelweizen from Wiehenstephan off its perch at the same 2008 AIBA.
> 
> Now hold the phone, an aussie micro knocking out 10HL batches manages to brew a dark wheat beer almost and arguably as good as a brewery that has been doing this for how many hundreds of years. The beer was sensational and what happened to it? this beer should have been an aussie revelation but NO! It fell through the cracks and was never seen again, why? NO SUPPORT. <_<



At the end of the day its David vs Goliath...and unfortunately Goliath has a big advertising budget and marking department and can push their product. 

But I will still stand by the little guy  I enjoy my beer because it tastes good, not because there marketing campaign is good (though the Made From Beer ads are pretty funny)


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## Sunshine_Brewer (22/10/12)

Sunshine_Brewer said:


> I remember drinking fresh dark wheat beer at a small independent brewery locally (SCB), this same beer got a gold at 2008 AIBA and came within a bees dick of knocking a dunkelweizen from Wiehenstephan off its perch at the same 2008 AIBA.
> 
> Now hold the phone, an aussie micro knocking out 10HL batches manages to brew a dark wheat beer almost and arguably as good as a brewery that has been doing this for how many hundreds of years. The beer was sensational and what happened to it? this beer should have been an aussie revelation but NO! It fell through the cracks and was never seen again, why? NO SUPPORT. <_<



2009 AIBA not 2008.


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## micblair (22/10/12)

manticle said:


> I'm not asking you to buy beer you hate or stop buying beer you love - just consider adding one or two in along with the rest.



I kind of feel this statement advocates a degree of charity to weaker brands, in order to keep them in business; what will be, will be. Breweries making a particularly good drop, or perhaps more importantly have an aggressive marketing edge/strategy wont see the same natural attrition to those who don't. If you really want to help, buy a six pack, slab, keg or get some stock options.

Besides, its called 'craft beer' for a reason; it's unique, not mass produced and tailors for a niche market. As soon as it exceeds almost any of these parameters, it falls into the hands of a multinational conglomerate.


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## Paul H (22/10/12)

Blitzer said:


> Well I quite enjoy HEF, apparently world class judges also enjoy a good HEF?
> 
> [



You are correct I do  

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


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## Nick JD (22/10/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I think you got a bad/mishandled batch. I've got HEF a few times from my local bottle-o and each time it has been superb and fresh tasting.



Burleigh Brewing's Hefe is more expensive than the German Hefes at Dans.  

It's a good Hefe, but with all due respect, it ain't Schofferhoffer. It's $3 more for a sixpack ... for the beer made 5km down the road.


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## tricache (22/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Burleigh Brewing's Hefe is more expensive than the German Hefes at Dans.
> 
> It's a good Hefe, but with all due respect, it ain't Schofferhoffer. It's $3 more for a sixpack ... for the beer made 5km down the road.



I think we might be talking company size now....compare Schofferhoffer to Burleigh Brewing, company size (people, overheads ect) and I can imagine it would be a massive difference

We all know stuff made in Australia always seems to cost more, I know that for a fact (I have worked in Importing/Exporting for the past 10+ years)


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## Liam_snorkel (22/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Burleigh Brewing's Hefe is more expensive than the German Hefes at Dans.
> 
> It's a good Hefe, but with all due respect, it ain't Schofferhoffer. It's $3 more for a sixpack ... for the beer made 5km down the road.


the last time I've grabbed a schoffer from dans it was getting close to its best before date and the yeast tasted 'dead', which was disappointing.

My local bottle-o doesn't stock schofferhoffer, but does have weihenstephaner pints at 3 for $15. HEF 6 packs were by memory $20 ea.


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## Nick JD (22/10/12)

tricache said:


> We all know stuff made in Australia always seems to cost more...



True - Commodores are way more expensive than Mercedes Benz.


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## dicko (22/10/12)

You'll be right Nick when the chinese start making Schofferhoffer.

It should be cheap enough for you then... :lol: 

<_<


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## hsb (22/10/12)

I bought an EKIM After Battle Pale Ale last week (made up in Kuringai somewhere, bottle says on 300l setup) bottling date was less than a week old, tasted beautiful and fresh, far nicer than any Sierra Nevada product I've had here in Aus. No idea how much it cost, I don't drink enough to care tbh. I never shop at dan murphys or liquor land or any other mass chain beer store if I can. When I have to, I'm often bamboozled by all the 'fake' craft beer options and reticent to buy Australian for this reason. I would always try and support a local brewery and retailer if I can, obvious why init. Like if I I visit a local brewery I don't ask if theyve got schofferhoffer on tap.
I'm up for trying Aussie takes on famous styles, be great to understand more about the actual source, depressing seeing people trying a James Squires to be daring and adventure into beer.


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## Nick JD (22/10/12)

dicko said:


> You'll be right Nick when the chinese start making Schofferhoffer.
> 
> It should be cheap enough for you then... :lol:
> 
> <_<



Schofferhoffer is cheap already $15.30 for 6, 330ml bottles (equivalent: $23 for 6 x 500ml). Local stuff is $18. Bloody stupid tax laws.


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## bum (22/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Schofferhoffer is cheap already $15.30 for 6, 330ml bottles (equivalent: $23 for 6 x 500ml). Local stuff is $18. Bloody stupid tax laws.


Imports pay some excise equivalent fee. You'll have to blame something else?

Mandatory superannuation seems sensible.


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## dammag (22/10/12)

I went to Dan's on the way home in the hope of buying a couple of Aussie beers to try. I walked out with a Ballast Point IPA and a Tower 10 IPA. I couldn't pass them up. Well in date. $4 a stubbie. Same as most locals. If I am going to pay good money for beer then I want some bang for my buck. $20 a six pack for SNPA was also tempting. I am drinking the Ballast Point IPA at the moment and it is nice without being over the top. There is nothing like an IPA aroma.

I would have bought a bottle of Burleigh Brewings FIG JAM IPA but Dan's don't have it. 

I was also going to buy a tallie of Coopers Sparkling Ale but I am a bit over the yeasty thing, was my favourite beer once, before home brew and hops!

Damian.


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## g-funke (22/10/12)

Slightly off topic, but not really..
Have been in the Blue Mountains all weekend and stopped by Leura Cellars. Wow. Probably the best local and imported range I have seen in NSW. 
I picked up a few St Bernardus 12 and some Innis and Gunn oak aged stout (they also had the full Heretic range, Bear Republic and most of the Belgian beers (apart from Cantillon). 
Back to topic, they also had a great range of Aussie beers and picked up some Murrays (who IMO are one of the best breweries in Australia) Imperial Stout, as well as some Bridge Road and Grand Ridge Moonshine and Hatlifter. 
I always try and pick up a new Aussie craft beer each visit to a bottle-o, and If I find one I like, I'll buy it again. 
Anyways, just thought I'd mention it....


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## Northside Novice (22/10/12)

Q: if i buy an aussie craft beer from a duopoly ( woolies or coles ) , does it help or hinder the aussie craft brewing industry?


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## dammag (22/10/12)

FWIW the Ballast Point was much better than the Tower 10.

The good news is my wife thought I made them. The bad news is I didn't.

Damian.


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## black_labb (22/10/12)

northside novice said:


> Q: if i buy an aussie craft beer from a duopoly ( woolies or coles ) , does it help or hinder the aussie craft brewing industry?




It helps 

you are firstly helping the brewer with sales as well as demonstrating to the bottle shops that craft beer sells and is profitable instead of just taking up valueable shelf space.


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## bignath (22/10/12)

black_labb said:


> It helps
> 
> you are firstly helping the brewer with sales as well as demonstrating to the bottle shops that craft beer sells and is profitable instead of just taking up valueable shelf space.



Just on this, not trying to throw a cat amongst it all, but i'm not sure it's that simple a transaction.

If for example the same bottle was purchased elsewhere, they'd still get the sales ticking over encouraging them to make more of it, but the slightly higher price, i would hope, could mean more actual profit to the manufacturer.

I have a close friend who is an apple farmer, who has had to go into vegetable farming too, to be profitable against the duopoly of coles and woolies.
The way he and his competition get royally fucked over by coles and woolies over price and quality, makes it hard to do business.

I can't help but think that if buying grog from coles or woolies owned bottle shops or pubs, means less actual profit for the brewery who made it because they've taken a hit in their margins to actually get it into a coles or woolies outlet in the first place.

where i live, pretty much all (conservative approximation as i actually believe every outlet) are owned by either coles or woolies. 
If i had the opportunity to buy beer at any other outlet in my regional centre of Mt Gambier, i would jump at the chance to give them my patronage.

I would gladly pay an extra dollar a bottle if i KNEW it was going back into the brewery.

Coles and Woolies won't be taking a hit by selling the beer cheaper at their outlets than other ones....it will be the producer being forced to supply at a rate dictated to them by the duopoly.

What really is fucked though (but completely expected) is that people that really like beer are the minority, and an attitude like mine of being happy to pay an extra dollar to go back to the breweries is lost on them.

**** that, i can buy it cheaper here.....etc.. That's the attitude of the average alcohol consumer, which will basically translate into the situation where Coles and Woolies can get away with dictating a supply price because the vast majority of people will always shop based on cost alone.
I shop based on cost, but i'm saying it's not necessarily the deciding factor of where i shop.


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## Northside Novice (22/10/12)

Q: how many independant aussie craft breweries are on their shelves ? i am no expert but i would guess there is not many , 3% ?

ok thinking about it , the last time i was in uncle dans, 6%

would love to be able to support an aussie craft beer co-op !! online shop even??!!???


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## black_labb (22/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> Just on this, not trying to throw a cat amongst it all, but i'm not sure it's that simple a transaction.
> 
> If for example the same bottle was purchased elsewhere, they'd still get the sales ticking over encouraging them to make more of it, but the slightly higher price, i would hope, could mean more actual profit to the manufacturer.
> 
> ...



I completely agree and almost described that as well as why it was important to support the independant bottle shops as they are small local businesses but decided against it as it would have been wordy and probably a bit political in some senses. Glad someone did it!


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## pk.sax (22/10/12)

In qty, yes. In number of different beers, not really. The Aussie ones have more product, less variety while the imports get more variety but less shelf space total. Seems like that at least. Ty the grand ridge moonshine and the stout. 2 very nice beers imo. I'm actually gonna look for something from stone and wood besides the pacific ale (yumm) next time.

What does piss me off about Aussie micros is the shelf crowding from the endeavour and vale ale types. The 'fake' micros. 

I remember drinking a gage roads wahoo kolsch, quite nice. Couldn't pin down if it was to style or not, too long between kolschs.


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## Nick JD (22/10/12)

bum said:


> Mandatory superannuation seems sensible.



Ze Germans sure love to retire wealthy.


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## Black Devil Dog (22/10/12)

I like the idea, personally whenever I walk into the liquor store I rarely know what I'm going to walk out with.
Some of the loose criteria that I try to work with is, not to buy something that is sitting in a prime position, isn't heavily promoted and I haven't had it before.
It's not too much to grab a stubby or six pack brewed by a micro, if you like it tell your mates, if you don't like it tell the brewery.
If you don't want to do anything, don't.


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## MHB (22/10/12)

God I love living in Newcastle, two great micros, a bottle shop with over 1,000 beers, both local and imported (growler refill to) and a craft bar in staggering distance with 10 taps and 2 hand-pull beers on the go no crap beer to be seen.
The whole lower Hunter Valley Region only has 350,000 people the rest of Australia has some catching up to do
Maybe this is what it will be like everywhere if we all support craft brewing.
Mark


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## bigfridge (22/10/12)

MHB said:


> craft bar in staggering distance with 10 taps and 2 hand-pull beers on the go no crap beer to be seen.



Yup .... this is the moral of this story thread.

The last mega-laga tap was removed a few years ago - when Potters Kolsch was outselling VB. 

Don't drink crap beer ..... learn to tell the difference between good and bad beer favours and let the brewer know if there is a problem.


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## manticle (23/10/12)

Well I grabbed a hawthorn pale, hawthorn amber and Jamiesons pale.

Only had the pale tonight but was a decent beer. Bit perfumey for my tastes but certainly nice.

Two local (to me) breweries I rate quite highly are mountain goat and Temple Brewing Company, temple especially. Hawthorn is also very local, particularly now I've moved eastward.


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## tricache (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> True - Commodores are way more expensive than Mercedes Benz.



Chalk and Cheese there mate :lol:


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## Samuel Adams (23/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> Just on this, not trying to throw a cat amongst it all, but i'm not sure it's that simple a transaction.
> 
> If for example the same bottle was purchased elsewhere, they'd still get the sales ticking over encouraging them to make more of it, but the slightly higher price, i would hope, could mean more actual profit to the manufacturer.
> 
> ...



I was at a Schneider Wiesse dinner during QLD beer week a while ago and had a chat to the distributer at the end.
I asked if he would consider selling to Dans (so I could buy it closer to home basically) and he said that they can get effed because they try to low ball you so they can undercut everyone else. 

So buying from a independent bottle-o probably does make a difference (if any exist anymore  )


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## Liam_snorkel (23/10/12)

Samuel Adams said:


> So buying from a independent bottle-o probably does make a difference (if any exist anymore  )


I'd like to know the percentage of liquor licenses owned by coles & woolies in QLD.


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## tricache (23/10/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I'd like to know the percentage of liquor licenses owned by coles & woolies in QLD.



I am pretty sure its close to 100%...they have lots of fingers in lots of pies, even if it is not directly they would still own most of them


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## Liam_snorkel (23/10/12)

80% of bottle shops in QLD according to the internets:



> QUEENSLAND
> (QLD is a special case in that no one can open a bottle shop without first having a hotel and the hotel license. When Coles or Woolworths take over a pub in QLD, it is not long before they have put in a bottle shop (up to a maximum of 3) within 10km of the pub and sell alcohol at low prices (sometimes lower than cost) in order to drive the smaller pubs and bottle shops out of business. Once they have successfully done this, their prices are raised (not their supply prices, so the brewery and farmer still make nothing because the coles/woolworths bottle shops are the only ones they can sell to) and the original pub is worse than ever. As a result of this, Coles and Woolworths own 80% of all bottle shops in QLD - Dan Murphys, First Choice, Liquor Land, Vintage Cellars, to name a few.



https://www.facebook.com/pages/Thank-you-fo...57478692?v=info


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## tallie (23/10/12)

The local vs. import cost discussion reminds me of this quote from the Selling Hops From The Usa thread:



DJR said:


> Somehow we all want to live in a country with high wages, but complain when things cost too much



Just sayin'

Cheers,
tallie


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## tricache (23/10/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> 80% of bottle shops in QLD according to the internets:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Thank-you-fo...57478692?v=info



WOW!!

I wonder who the 20% is?


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## Nick JD (23/10/12)

_QLD is a special case in that no one can open a bottle shop without first having a hotel and the hotel license. _

Damn, that sucks.

Shouldn't we be buying beers straight from the Micros then? Isn't buying Micros from Dans totally wrong? 

Or is it okay to support Micros _and_ the Coles/Woollies duoploy? 

Or should I just make a hefe using all german ingredients at home for $2 a sixpack?


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## Snow (23/10/12)

OK - here's your solution.

Buy direct from the brewer. Get on their website and order a case. They will mail it to you and they will get 100% of the sales profit. Postage (by courier) will be around 30-50c per bottle - no biggie, right? If they don't have sales by website, give them a call and have a chat. the vast majority of micros in australia will fall over themselves to send you their beer. They'll even do a mixed case for you if you ask politely. Order a few cases and they might talk discounts. Get your mates involved and order a whole bunch of cases!

Cheers - Snow. 



Big Nath said:


> Just on this, not trying to throw a cat amongst it all, but i'm not sure it's that simple a transaction.
> 
> If for example the same bottle was purchased elsewhere, they'd still get the sales ticking over encouraging them to make more of it, but the slightly higher price, i would hope, could mean more actual profit to the manufacturer.
> 
> ...


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## Nick JD (23/10/12)

Snow said:


> OK - here's your solution.
> 
> Buy direct from the brewer. Get on their website and order a case. They will mail it to you and they will get 100% of the sales profit. Postage (by courier) will be around 30-50c per bottle - no biggie, right? If they don't have sales by website, give them a call and have a chat. the vast majority of micros in australia will fall over themselves to send you their beer. They'll even do a mixed case for you if you ask politely. Order a few cases and they might talk discounts. Get your mates involved and order a whole bunch of cases!
> 
> Cheers - Snow.



Bloody good idea. I just sent an email to CUB. 

As homebrewers (people with the best knowledge of beer and beer styles and probably the best beer appreciation skills) aren't we indirectly NOT supporting Aussie Micros by making our own beer at home instead of buying it from them? 

Here's what I propose: all us homebrewers should give up homebrewing because it is stopping us supporting Aussie Micros. I know if I didn't brew, I'd spend thousands a year with Aussie Micros.

In effect - the real reason Australia doesn't have a strong Microbrewery scene IS BECAUSE OF ALL THE HOMEBREWERS. 

You, yes you, homebrewer ... are to blame.


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## WarmBeer (23/10/12)




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## Liam_snorkel (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> _QLD is a special case in that no one can open a bottle shop without first having a hotel and the hotel license. _
> 
> Damn, that sucks.


Yep so unlike other states, ordinary grocery stores can't sell alcohol. 

Coles and Woolies get around this by buying the local pub & opening a BWS/LL in the tenancy right next door to their supermarket, and use the back pages of their catalogues to advertise their alcohol stores.. effectively bypassing the legislation while the independents miss out.


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## Nick JD (23/10/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Yep so unlike other states, ordinary grocery stores can't sell alcohol.
> 
> Coles and Woolies get around this by buying the local pub & opening a BWS/LL in the tenancy right next door to their supermarket, and use the back pages of their catalogues to advertise their alcohol stores.. effectively bypassing the legislation while the independents miss out.



Reminds me, I need to buy more shares in Coles Myer. 

I use the dividends cheques to buy homebrew ingredients.


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## bignath (23/10/12)

Snow, 

in theory it's a great idea.

However, i suspect (could very well be wrong, and will gladly admit it if proven) that if the beer industry is anything like the fruit and veg industries, a lot of micros might have contracts drawn up by Coles/Woolies stating that they are limited when it comes to supplying other retail outlets not owned by the duopoly.
This contract guarantees that the big boys will buy product, which the micro's would love as it to a certain extent guarantees some income, but the downside is that the price they will purchase product from the micros for is very low. Trade off.

As i said, i could very easily be misguided with this, but i know it happens in other industries that are controlled by the two major's, so i would expect some level of similarity with beverages.


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## bugeater (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> As homebrewers (people with the best knowledge of beer and beer styles and probably the best beer appreciation skills) aren't we indirectly NOT supporting Aussie Micros by making our own beer at home instead of buying it from them?
> 
> Here's what I propose: all us homebrewers should give up homebrewing because it is stopping us supporting Aussie Micros. I know if I didn't brew, I'd spend thousands a year with Aussie Micros.
> 
> ...



That is a damn good point. But then again, if homebrewers didn't homebrew then they probably wouldn't develop the beer appreciation skills in the first place. Hmmmm. Chicken or egg?


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## tricache (23/10/12)

All Micro-Brewers probably start as homebrewers anyway...I say Brew *& DRINK* good beer and be merry!!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Reminds me, I need to buy more shares in Coles Myer.
> 
> I use the dividends cheques to buy homebrew ingredients.



CML hasn't existed for years. They divested Myer from the rest of it (sold it back to the family), and Coles Group was bought by Wesfarmers (aka, Bunnings and some Coal and Agri-investments).

Buy shares in Wesfarmers, shop at LL and Bunnings and use the dividends to pay for ingredients.


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## chunckious (23/10/12)

How did nectar in West End do it, by just being a bottle shop?


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## tricache (23/10/12)

Chunkious said:


> How did nectar in West End do it, by just being a bottle shop?



Probably owned by another company but a good question to bring up


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## Liam_snorkel (23/10/12)

Chunkious said:


> How did nectar in West End do it, by just being a bottle shop?


AFAK the licensee would have owned a nearby pub.

http://www.olgr.qld.gov.au/industry/liquor...pes/index.shtml


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## Weizguy (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> _QLD is a special case in that no one can open a bottle shop without first having a hotel and the hotel license. _
> 
> Damn, that sucks.
> 
> ...


WOW! You're importing German water for your Braumeister? and making beer for $2 per sixer?

Outstanding!


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## Nick JD (23/10/12)

Les the Weizguy said:


> WOW! You're importing German water for your Braumeister? and making beer for $2 per sixer?
> 
> Outstanding!



My water becomes German because I stir it with a Nazi helmet. And I drew a BMW symbol on my 19L pot.

But seriously, a 20L batch of Hefeweizen using Weyermann Malts, Hallertau and 3068 is a buck a liter. 

If I add in labour it's $10,000 per liter. I don't get out of bed in the morning for less.


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## drew9242 (23/10/12)

manticle said:


> Well I grabbed a hawthorn pale, hawthorn amber and Jamiesons pale.
> 
> Only had the pale tonight but was a decent beer. Bit perfumey for my tastes but certainly nice.
> 
> Two local (to me) breweries I rate quite highly are mountain goat and Temple Brewing Company, temple especially. Hawthorn is also very local, particularly now I've moved eastward.



I would rate the temple brewrey highly as well. Great selection of European beers and of the greatest standard when I was there last. I would deffiently be going for the team ride again worth every minute. Unfortunately I can't be in Melbourne to often. 
On topic I love going out to brewery's here and buying pints on tap. However I don't normally buy bottled beer. I just love fresh tap beer.


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## Snow (23/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> Snow,
> 
> in theory it's a great idea.
> 
> ...



Yeah you're probably right about a few of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Aussie micros are just running along by themselves and would love to send you beer. Personally, I've bought beer this way from Murrays, Bacchus, SCB, Stone and Wood, just to name a few. 

Another way to get good Aussie micros is to buy them online through craftbeer suppliers like Beer Cartel and Beer Masons.

Cheers - Snow


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## Stagwa (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> True - Commodores are way more expensive than Mercedes Benz.






tricache said:


> Chalk and Cheese there mate :lol:



They can't be that different, they both get driven by wankers....


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## WarmBeer (24/10/12)

Stagwa said:


> They can't be that different, they both get driven by wankers....


I drive a Commodore and I masturbate regularly. Theory confirmed.


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## Jay Cee (24/10/12)

The interest in craft beer is growing at a fantastic rate, with new independent bars opening in major cities, some regular pubs stocking lines they would never dream of a few years ago, and retailer such as Dan Murphey's carrying a notable range. The big players are well aware of this growth, and obviously they want the sector's market share. Which is why James Squire is being pushed so heavily this year, Fat Yak is pouring from many taps, and the megabreweries are eyeing off the acquisition of the indies. And let's face it, most people have their price over a sense of industry integrity. 

Your average convert doesn't know the difference between the business structure of White Rabbit vs. Four Pines, Little Creatures vs. Murrays, and they will be attracted to the availability & price of these alleged 'craft' offerings (ie those owned by the majors). So while we are living in exciting times as beer lovers, I speculate that within two years we will see a few biig names in the scene suffer at the hands of corporate dominance. 

In the American documentary "Beer Wars", the retail shelves are discussed, and the big players who demand the shelf exposure will offer their products in multiple, arguable pointless formats, so each 'line' is taking up space. BUd Light might release their product in a cabn six pack, a bottle six pack, a 10 pack, a 24 carton, and a 30 carton. The result is that for a 12ft x 6ft segment, ALL the consumer sees is the Bud Light branding. Do the same with regular Bud, Millers, a few megacraft lines, and very quickly a little micro with a 6-pack presence easily gets buried under Goliath. 

The big players can afford to reduce their profit margin. Hell, they have even been known to release 'loss leaders' simply to gain market share against their major competition. What chance does an indie have if both Lion & Fosters decided to sell thir 'craft' beer range at $12 a six pack? My local shop sells Aussie micros for $25-$30 a six pack. While *I* have no qualms about the premium pricetag, this will be a deciding factor for many consumers.


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## tricache (24/10/12)

Stagwa said:


> They can't be that different, they both get driven by wankers....






WarmBeer said:


> I drive a Commodore and I masturbate regularly. Theory confirmed.



:lol: :lol:


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## Mike L'Itorus (24/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> My water becomes German because I stir it with a Nazi helmet. And I drew a BMW symbol on my 19L pot.
> 
> But seriously, a 20L batch of Hefeweizen using Weyermann Malts, Hallertau and 3068 is a buck a liter.
> 
> If I add in labour it's $10,000 per liter. I don't get out of bed in the morning for less.


But you get in bed with the nearest sailor for about threefiddy.


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## Paul H (24/10/12)

WarmBeer said:


> I drive a Commodore and I masturbate regularly. Theory confirmed.



Yeah that was confirmed on Myth Busters a couple of years ago...

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


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## bum (24/10/12)

I seem to recall the nut of that episode being determined as "busted"?


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## tricache (24/10/12)

bum said:


> I seem to recall the nut of that episode being determined as "busted"?



I think its plausible...since repeating the experiment took a good 3 hour nap :lol:


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## shaunous (24/10/12)

Blitzer said:


> Well I quite enjoy HEF, apparently world class judges also enjoy a good HEF?
> 
> Link 1
> 
> Link 2




Well I went down this morning and grabbed another 6er of HEF, and i'm tasting one right now, MUCH BETTER.



I got myself a bad batch a couple of months ago it seems. If I were any normal beer drinker not associated with this site or home brewing in general you probably wouldnt have given it a second chance.


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## [email protected] (24/10/12)

shaunous said:


> I got myself a bad batch a couple of months ago it seems. If I were any normal beer drinker not associated with this site or home brewing in general you probably wouldnt have given it a second chance.



THIS. 

Probably one of the biggest pitfalls, bad batch, bad handling yada yada, i have heard it from the mouths of babes, i bet many here have as well. 

"SAVY" consumers have one bad experience and judge the whole lot.


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## Nick JD (24/10/12)

Beer4U said:


> THIS.
> 
> Probably one of the biggest pitfalls, bad batch, bad handling yada yada, i have heard it from the mouths of babes, i bet many here have as well.
> 
> "SAVY" consumers have one bad experience and judge the whole lot.



Still, it really hurts them - which sucks. 

I got a bad batch of 4 Pines Kolsch, and got a free 6 pack from them - where I got to taste their stout, which I still buy (it's a freakin great beer) but the "once bitten" thing has got me on their Kolsch, even though I've tasted it FRESH and with no bottling issues. Someone said it was fermented with US05, so I realised it was more marketing than beer appreciation. 

Bottling is a real thorn in the side of Aussie Micros. Question is, why? WTF are they doing wrong? 

My last bottle of Burleigh Hefe was a little bland after the German hefes I drank alongside it. I was sad about that considering it was more expensive than the Germans. And it won awards. It's led me to wonder if it's the pasteurisation or something of the German hefes that gives them a better shelf life (since the primary yeast is long gone and the lager yeast in them is dead)? 

I've experienced America and NZ's Mirco scenes and I'm just not getting anything even close to them here. 

Looking forward to trying Burleigh's new IPA. The 28 Pale Ale was nice, but I'm not writing home about it.


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## shaunous (24/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> Looking forward to trying Burleigh's new IPA. The 28 Pale Ale was nice, but I'm not writing home about it.




With you on that one?



Seems a copy of another beer, I cant remember what, It may be Fat Yak. But its been a few camping trips back since I tried it... Fancy label though...


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## WarmBeer (25/10/12)

Paul H said:


> Yeah that was confirmed on Myth Busters a couple of years ago...
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> Paul


OT, but chortle-worthy:


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## bignath (25/10/12)

chortled.

out loud, unashamedly..


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## MHB (26/10/12)

Im not the only one who thinks we have it good in Newcastle
Beer and Brewer
Well done and thank you to Murrays, The Albion and Warners at the Bay for helping to make craft brewing so much fun and so accessible.
Mark


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## Jay Cee (26/10/12)

Went to Warners recently, and walked out with this booty.

Reckon there's enough Aussie brews in there to keep the OP happy, and even a couple of NZ offerings to keep our brothers across the ditch employed, and not invading our fine land :lol: 

Does anyone know if there's transport from Murray's brewery in Bob's Farm to Anna Bay's caravan parks? I'm always let down when I go there because I can only have a couple of beers due to driving, and my designated driver is on an 'all-or-nothing' licence restriction. Sure, there's the Manly bar, but the original location is so nice to chill out. 

I'm def. catching the iron horse up to Newcastle to visit the Albion this summer. The number of taps & bottled beer looks superb.


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## ian ulrick (26/10/12)

Jay Cee said:


> Sure, there's the Manly bar, but the original location is so nice to chill out.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure that the original location of Murrays started out at the Cosmopolitan Hotel (the pub with no beer) Taylors Arm about 20K's west of Macksville. I've had more than a few there myself. More atmosphere than the location at Manly. Yet to try the Albion. :icon_cheers:


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## Jay Cee (26/10/12)

Well there ya go. I wasn't aware of them being somewhere before Bob's Farm. What happened to the pub with no beer, does Murray Howe still own it? A few websites make mention f a web address that does not load.


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## ian ulrick (26/10/12)

Jay Cee said:


> Well there ya go. I wasn't aware of them being somewhere before Bob's Farm. What happened to the pub with no beer, does Murray Howe still own it? A few websites make mention f a web address that does not load.




Not sure. Think that the lease had been taken over. Murray moved south. I'd say for more market opportunity. Not much out at Taylors Arm. Others may now more.


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## krisisdog (28/10/12)

Just had a Hef, can see why people rate it highly!
Mildura Brewery honey wheat is also quite a nice drop...


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## eamonnfoley (28/10/12)

I was out at Feral today - I have no hesitation supporting them! A pint of Watermelon Warhead and a taster of Razorback barleywine - wow


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## labels (28/10/12)

I think Adelaide could do a lot better in the craft beer market. There are a few micros out there, one not so far from me but the brewery is closed to the public and I don't see the beers anywhere for sale.

Trouble with Adelaide is on one hand it's a wine state - yep, they practically give the stuff away here, I haven't paid for wine in the last ten years - and on the other hand we got Coopers which is really just a big microbrewery. They do a fine job but also limited in styles.

The home brewing fraternity is alive and well here, especially full grain brewing so I guess there is a lot of people like me around who just brew their own and_ mostly _give up on the local micros. I will drink Vale Ale when I can find it and a couple of others but finding places that sell them is like looking for hens teeth - exception goes to The Wheaty of course.

Steve


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