# Dark Ale / Stout Toucan



## kjparker (6/7/11)

Hi,

I have a feeling I have made a mistake with my latest brew.

I made a toucan with a can of coopers dark and a stout. 

The recipe was as follows:

1 * Coopers stout Kit
1* Coopers Dark kit
500g brown sugar
300g dex
800g ldme
50g grated Lindt 70%
us05

Diluted to 25.5l

It had a starting gravity of 1.070, and when I tasted my sample, it was hellishly bitter! I will be leaving it in the fridge at 18 deg. I am going on holidays in 2 weeks, and suspect it wont be done before then, would leaving it in the barrel for 4 weeks matter?

Anything I should be thinking about doing now to try and balance the bitterness?


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## Lodan (6/7/11)

clueless said:


> Anything I should be thinking about doing now to try and balance the bitterness?



The bitterness will soften with age so i think it's best to leave as is.
Four weeks? From what i've read that is on the limit for time on the cake (from collective "home brew experience")
Maybe rack to secondary at two weeks.


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## kjparker (6/7/11)

Lodan said:


> The bitterness will soften with age so i think it's best to leave as is.
> Four weeks? From what i've read that is on the limit for time on the cake (from collective "home brew experience")
> Maybe rack to secondary at two weeks.


Not going to be possible..... 

It's going to be at a steady 18deg the whole time, so I'm hoping it'll be fine...


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## mwd (7/7/11)

You should be fine leaving on yeast for 4 weeks no problem. Autolysis will only occur after a few months then it is debatable when it will occur.

Harsh bitterness will go with time in the bottle. Just done a Stout and IPA toucan which was in fermenter for six weeks.


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## Ryan WABC (7/7/11)

Tropical_Brews said:


> You should be fine leaving on yeast for 4 weeks no problem. Autolysis will only occur after a few months then it is debatable when it will occur.
> 
> Harsh bitterness will go with time in the bottle. Just done a Stout and IPA toucan which was in fermenter for six weeks.



Interesting to know. I, as a rule of thumb, never leave a beer for longer than two weeks in the same drum. Well, it's more because I've never brewed a beer that has required me to break that rule. However, due to a shortage of drums, I may need to leave a lager in the same drum for three weeks or so. I'll rest easy knowing that shouldn't be a problem.

:icon_cheers:


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## kjparker (7/7/11)

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I know the stout / dark combo is a popular one, but at this point the brew is soo bitter I would struggle to get one down. I ended up tipping out most of my sample I used for getting my SG.

At what point did people find that the bitterness had been tamed enough to be enjoyed?

I had considered dry hopping before I leave for my holiday, I have a choice of POR, Cascade, Nelson Sauvin. Would any of these help balance it out a bit?

My goal with this brew isnt to make one that I can immediately consume, I'm happy to cellar for as long as necessary, but I was hoping to be able to drink it eventually! I like darks / stouts, but this is way OTT!


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## petesbrew (7/7/11)

clueless said:


> At what point did people find that the bitterness had been tamed enough to be enjoyed?



Time you took that skirt off and HTFU, princess.

The toucan stout is a bitter mistress. It generally improves over months.
IMO If you're gonna dry hop, I use Fuggles, Goldings or Stryrian Goldings.
:icon_chickcheers:


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## Paleman (7/7/11)

clueless said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a feeling I have made a mistake with my latest brew.
> 
> ...



Did pretty much the same brew. Coopers stout and dark ale, with 1 kilo dext.

Just tasted a couple three weeks in the bottle and very sensational. Still green but my best [email protected] stout ever.

Bitterness is pretty much around the same as commercial coopers stout. As is mouthfeel and taste. Beautiful creamy head. Can only improve too with age.

If i were to change anything, i'd perhaps add a touch of good perculated / plunged coffee, and some noble hops for aroma. Just to give that roasty aftertaste that a commercial coopers has. 

If you want to over ride bitterness, maybe some lactose in your next stout toucan.


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## kjparker (7/7/11)

petesbrew said:


> Time you took that skirt off and HTFU, princess.
> 
> The toucan stout is a bitter mistress. It generally improves over months.
> IMO If you're gonna dry hop, I use Fuggles, Goldings or Stryrian Goldings.
> :icon_chickcheers:



LMAO!

I like bitter beers. 

According to Beersmith, using the kits database this has 253ibu's. 

How hard do you have to be to enjoy that? LMAO :super: !

Like I said, I have no problem waiting for it to mellow a bit. I reckon it would be a nice winter beer, I'll save it for next winter, should be just right by then I guess from what you guys are telling me.


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## earle (7/7/11)

Ryan WABC said:


> Interesting to know. I, as a rule of thumb, never leave a beer for longer than two weeks in the same drum. Well, it's more because I've never brewed a beer that has required me to break that rule. However, due to a shortage of drums, I may need to leave a lager in the same drum for three weeks or so. I'll rest easy knowing that shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> :icon_cheers:


As long as you've got good temp control you don't really have a problem. I leave all my ales 3 weeks and my lagers 4 weeks in primary. Gives them time to condition and clear.


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## earle (7/7/11)

clueless said:


> LMAO!
> 
> I like bitter beers.
> 
> ...



You might not have them set up right in beersmith.
From coopers website Dark Ale = 590 IBU - 590 x 1.7kg / 23L = 43.6IBU
Stout = 710 IBU - 710 x 1.7kg / 23L = 52.5IBU
giving you a total ibu of 96.1

Still pretty bitter though. When I do a toucan like this I add a chunk of crystal to help balance out the bitterness.


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## petesbrew (7/7/11)

clueless said:


> LMAO!
> 
> I like bitter beers.
> 
> ...


Hmm, haven't used beersmith, but is it me or does that sounds a bit wrong.
Using that kit designer thing (and i'm no expert at it) I'm getting 70ibu.

Also a month on the yeast cake won't do it any harm.


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## keifer33 (7/7/11)

When upgrading from the old to the new beersmith the hopped extract stuffed up.i am working on new ones that work. Will upload tonight. Yeah def shouldn't be over 100.


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## kjparker (7/7/11)

keifer33 said:


> When upgrading from the old to the new beersmith the hopped extract stuffed up.i am working on new ones that work. Will upload tonight. Yeah def shouldn't be over 100.


you guys are probably right. That does sound insanely high!

I'm still in my trial period for beersmith, trying to get a feel for it, but I'm liking it so far!


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## Braumoasta (7/7/11)

earle said:


> When I do a toucan like this I add a chunk of crystal to help balance out the bitterness.



How much crystal would you recommend adding?


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## earle (7/7/11)

Braumoasta said:


> How much crystal would you recommend adding?



I did a toucan with dark ale and euro lager. Its calculated IBU was about 67IBU and I added 200g of carabohemian. I also used Windsor yeast to leave some residual sweetness as well.

With a calc bitterness of around 96 IBU i reckon the OP could easily add at least 300g of a crystal malt.


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## kjparker (7/7/11)

I just had another tastetook another sample, and it's tasting a lot more balanced.

dont get me wrong, the bitterness is still there, but it isnt the only thing you can taste...... Maybe I didnt mix it properly or something?

I think with a few months in the bottle this one is going to be a wee ripper!

How would I determine what FG I should be anticipating? Or is it a likely case of after 4 weeks at 18deg, with the US05 (probably about a cup full of washed yeast from my previous brew) it's likely to be done? I already have a decent krausen formed on the top, so it's going great guns...


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## kjparker (11/7/11)

Ok, took another sample yesterday. It's dropped down to about 1.030, and still has a huge Krausen.

The bitterness is still there, but it has smoothed out considerably, the chocolate is coming through now, and the sample was a pleasure to drink!

This looks like it might end up a very nice brew!


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## petesbrew (11/7/11)

Mine usually stop around 1016.


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## Salt (11/7/11)

Put down a very similar brew yesterday - No chocolate added though.

However, my question is - Can I dry hop with grated chocolate? How would I ensure that it is sterile?

Also same question regarding ground coffee beans?

Anyone tried it...Just want to get a nice aroma going on top of it all.

Cheers


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## kjparker (14/7/11)

Hmm, starting to get a really strong alcohol smell in the fridge now... (and in the room) Might have over done it on the sugars.....


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## Brewman_ (14/7/11)

Wow, you guys must be bitterness Junkies. Your bitterness will be up over 90 IBU's and that is in the realm of Ruissian Imperial Stout, RIS, in fact higher, not Guinness, it probably has a bitterness less than half of your brews. But fi that does it for you great.

Here's the vitals for RIS.
Vital Statistics:
OG:1.075 1.115
IBUs:50 90
FG:1.018 1.030
SRM:30 40
ABV:8 12%

Fear.


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## earle (15/7/11)

fear_n_loath said:


> Wow, you guys must be bitterness Junkies. Your bitterness will be up over 90 IBU's and that is in the realm of Ruissian Imperial Stout, RIS, in fact higher, not Guinness, it probably has a bitterness less than half of your brews. But fi that does it for you great.
> 
> Here's the vitals for RIS.
> Vital Statistics:
> ...


It all comes down to the balance of your brew. You can have a very high calculated IBU but if you have enough malt (leaving residual sugars), the perceived bitterness will be not nearly as high.


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## kjparker (15/7/11)

earle said:


> It all comes down to the balance of your brew. You can have a very high calculated IBU but if you have enough malt (leaving residual sugars), the perceived bitterness will be not nearly as high.


Yes, Mine doesnt tast hugely bitter anymore at all. Got a warmth to it though... And an "alcohol" type aroma to it...


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## Brewman_ (16/7/11)

earle said:


> It all comes down to the balance of your brew. You can have a very high calculated IBU but if you have enough malt (leaving residual sugars), the perceived bitterness will be not nearly as high.



Jenny, I might not be a smart man but I know what loveBitterness is.


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## earle (18/7/11)

fear_n_loath said:


> [/size]Jenny, I might not be a smart man but I know what loveBitterness is.



Not quite sure what that means but you made a comment about high IBU (calculated) and not everyone understands balance.


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## kjparker (31/7/11)

ok, I put this one in the bottle today, it ended up at around 1.010 from 1.070. How do I calc what the alcohol level is on that one?

It has quite a hit of bitterness, which I reckon a few months in the bottle will mellow. Ended up with 52 1/2 litre bottles of the stuff. so hoping it does mellow with age!


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## going down a hill (31/7/11)

From what the linked site says it comes in as 7.88%. Happy days.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/ms/sirl...Calculator.html


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## kjparker (12/9/11)

and in the glass.....

Still a bit young, but quite tasty!


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## Ivan Other One (12/9/11)

A beaut looking creamy/white head for a stout there Clueless, Well done mate. :icon_cheers:


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## kjparker (12/9/11)

Ivan Other One said:


> A beaut looking creamy/white head for a stout there Clueless, Well done mate. :icon_cheers:


Yep, very happy with it so far!

Reckon it will only get better!


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