# Death by Homebrew



## Mattress (9/6/13)

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/tainted-home-brew-may-have-caused-mans-death-20130609-2nxtf.html

Hope it's no one we know.


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## NickB (9/6/13)

There is nothing that can survive in home brew that will kill you. The PH alone would kill most bacteria, and the very hardy ones are done in by the alcohol.....

Watch for the QLD government to initiate a crackdown on Home Brewing now. Just their form....

EDIT: I'm sitting here next to a cube of BerlinerWiess fermenting away, with funky shit of all descriptions in it....and I'm...ummm, lemme check, yep, not dead. What a stupid story!! The death or journalism perhaps....


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## spryzie (9/6/13)

Alcohol poisoning?

Or another case of piss poor journalism?

And what kills you before the ambulance can arrive?!


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## dammag (9/6/13)

Before reading the story I thought he might have been electrocuted or gassed while making it but killed by drinking home brew is an interesting one.

Hopefully home brew is an innocent party in all this.


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## Mattress (9/6/13)

spryzie said:


> And what kills you before the ambulance can arrive?!


Drink enough alcohol and it reduces your respiratory drive. You stop breathing.


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## DU99 (9/6/13)

wonder if it was BEER...could have been spirit.



> The spokeswoman says detectives are waiting to interview the surviving trio about whether they took any other substance.


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## Ironsides (9/6/13)

Spirits were my first thought.


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## T.T.B.Co (9/6/13)

What a crock of shit. I am drinking a VB clone and im ok :icon_drunk:


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## warra48 (9/6/13)

Can't have been homebrew, never ever.

Unless it was from a ...........kit ????


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## jyo (9/6/13)

Sad story. If was distilled spirits, then again, it's crappy online journalism.



You guys do realise if it was botulism then daz will be back under another pseudonym.


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## brettprevans (9/6/13)

Isnt the first story posted about somwonw dying of homebrew. I remember one article (qld again from memory) wherr the headline was about death by homebrew and the pics they showef were of homebrewed beer. Wasnt ubtil somway through the article that it said they died from alc poisoning from the huge amount of homemade spirits they were making. 

Journalists suck arse and are fkn lazy sensationalist wankers.


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## JDW81 (9/6/13)

Mattress said:


> Drink enough alcohol and it reduces your respiratory drive. You stop breathing.


you'd have to drink a shite load of alcohol for that to happen. Most people would chuck before they could ingest that much. However, aspiration is a big problem with very drunk people RIP Bon Scott.


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## pommiebloke (9/6/13)

Would have to be spirits if anything.


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## Greg.L (9/6/13)

The only way homebrew will kill you is spontaneous combustion.


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## db73 (9/6/13)

Not beer 

Thought to be grappa


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## Edak (9/6/13)

Mattress said:


> Drink enough alcohol and it reduces your respiratory drive. You stop breathing.


Funny that, to much oxygen does the same thing. You need carbon dioxide in the air for respiratory drive. This is why oxygen lines in hospitals actually contain about 5% CO2.


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## Florian (9/6/13)

Could well be other drugs, painkillers or whatever involved, mix them with alcohol and the chance of respiratory failure increases dramatically. Or it could be food poisoning of sorts, who knows.


Point being is that there's really no detail in that article to speculate on.


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## Slamma (9/6/13)

I heard this on the Ten News on googling it for more info I found that news.com.au are reporting as a mystery illness:
http://www.news.com.au/national-news/queensland/one-man-dead-three-critical-after-being-struck-down-by-mystery-illness-at-home-in-ballandean-near-warwick/story-fnii5v6w-1226660883546


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## marksfish (9/6/13)

given the habits of all polititions of all parties just wait for a homebrew buy back and the outlawing of all semi auto and pump action brewing systems. and yes i am being just a little sarcastic.


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## Bribie G (9/6/13)

Illegal substances:

Swiss Voile
Birko urns
Aldi Apple juice
Tandaco yeast
Sugaz
hops


Hey forgetting, poor bastard. If it is determined that it was beer that caused it shouldn't we all chuck in five bucks and do a collection? Could have wife and kiddies.


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## goomboogo (9/6/13)

marksfish said:


> given the habits of all polititions of all parties just wait for a homebrew buy back and the outlawing of all semi auto and pump action brewing systems. and yes i am being just a little sarcastic.


Everyone, get rid of your march pumps and go gravity.

Bribie, it is now being reported as being grappa. So no beer involved. Maybe the government will make distilling your own spirits illegal.


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## manticle (9/6/13)

Slamma said:


> I heard this on the Ten News on googling it for more info I found that news.com.au are reporting as a mystery illness:http://www.news.com.au/national-news/queensland/one-man-dead-three-critical-after-being-struck-down-by-mystery-illness-at-home-in-ballandean-near-warwick/story-fnii5v6w-1226660883546


"transported to larger facilities...."

Guess it must have been homebrew related after all.


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## Bribie G (9/6/13)

Probably drank the heads and tails as well.

Sorry shouldn't discuss that on this forum.


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## brentice (9/6/13)

I thought I had a stiffy once. Turns out I had too much Home brew and I had pissed my pants. True story


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## joshF (9/6/13)

Not meaning to stereotype but there's a pretty strong chance that three blokes in their 20's at 5am weren't just drinking some average hefe's or APA's.....

Plus "No illicit drugs were found at the home" but doesn't mean they hadn't taken any. Still a sad story nonetheless


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## manticle (9/6/13)

How do you confuse a chub with self saturation?

Must have been drinking.


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## wombil (9/6/13)

The suspect substance seems to be methanol which is the first thing to vaporise in a still and should be discarded.
Ethanol is next,(alcohol),and should be kept.
A little knowlege can be a big stuff up.


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## cremmerson (9/6/13)

For those dissing journalist (especially the elegant citymorgue2) most police reporters faithfully report information provided as background by police. Yes, they will try and make it interesting, and perhaps they don't always get it right, but very few stray beyond police backgrounding.

(Perhaps a bit sensitive - ended a 7.416 year journalism career two days ago).


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## manticle (9/6/13)

otherwise known as 'not my responsibility - I just do what I'm told"?


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## bum (9/6/13)

Internet journalism is pus. I cannot believe you bothered wriggling your fingers to defend it.


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## Pickaxe (9/6/13)

Note at the end of an article i read on same story, they say authorities are checking if they took any "other substances".

_Meth Addict Dabbling in Heroin Dies from Home Brew Overdose._


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## brocky_555 (9/6/13)

Must have been a pretty serious infection !


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## MastersBrewery (9/6/13)

I felt like death this morning after oversampling a 7.8% IPA I kegged up last night. 5 pints in quick succession was a bad idea


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## punkin (10/6/13)

wombil said:


> The suspect substance seems to be methanol which is the first thing to vaporise in a still and should be discarded.
> Ethanol is next,(alcohol),and should be kept.
> A little knowlege can be a big stuff up.



There is not enough methanol in a normal fermentation to harm you in any worse way than a bad headache. All deaths from methanol poisoning have been traced back to _adding methanol or other poisons *in to* spirits _in order to make it cheaper and sell it to others. Much like drug dealers cutting drugs with harmful, but cheap substances.

Methanol comes across in trace amounts right through a distillation in a commercial operation, and is not as fokelore would have it, able to be wholly discarded in foreshots (which is a lot of low boiling point substances) and the commercial operations must test to keep it below threshold limits.





Methanol is created as a byproduct of certain types of fermentations (apples being one of the main players) and drinking a litre of spirits off the still with no foreshot cuts would be the same as drinking 10-12 litres of the cider it was made from and cannot contain anything more harmful than that. What goes in must come out, there's nothing created in there.

So yes, a little knowledge can certainly be a dangerous thing, especially when that knowledge is based on untruths.


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## 3GumsBrewing (10/6/13)

It was home distilled spirits - http://www.warwickdailynews.com.au/news/man-dies-after-drinking-homebrewed-spirits/1900423/

Note that the Warwick news was probably the only one that actually mentioned distillation and spirits. The rest of the media just report it as home brew.


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## Mattress (10/6/13)

Slamma said:


> I heard this on the Ten News on googling it for more info I found that news.com.au are reporting as a mystery illness:
> http://www.news.com.au/national-news/queensland/one-man-dead-three-critical-after-being-struck-down-by-mystery-illness-at-home-in-ballandean-near-warwick/story-fnii5v6w-1226660883546


This says the Ambo's had to go back after the others got sick 3 hours later.
Must have decided to have a drink for their mate after they found out he was dead.

One of my colleagues recently went to a heroin O/D after someone called and said his mate had collapsed after shooting up.
When they got there they found 2 people collapsed and close to death.
One of them turned out to be the caller. Told them that after he called 000 he thought to himself, well there's an ambulance on the way, I might as well give it a go, what can go wrong.

And these people are allowed to breed.


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## brentice (10/6/13)

manticle said:


> How do you confuse a chub with self saturation?
> 
> Must have been drinking.


I may have been drinking home brew. True story


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/6/13)

Grappa - explains it out at Ballanedean - it was my expectation.


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## Bribie G (10/6/13)

A perfect example of how, whenever the media report on something that you actually have a good knowledge of personally, *they get it dead wrong*. Makes you wonder about the other 99% of stuff they publish.


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## Josho (10/6/13)

I would say that if someone is killed by doing this it really is just natural selection,

there is so much info out there online and otherwise that well maybe were better off........

I feel for his family and friends though.


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## Nick JD (10/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Makes you wonder about the other 99% of stuff they publish.


Who's dumber, the people who write this ill-informed garbage or those who read it?


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## GuyQLD (10/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> A perfect example of how, whenever the media report on something that you actually have a good knowledge of personally, *they get it dead wrong*. Makes you wonder about the other 99% of stuff they publish.


No, pretty sure I'm not wondering at all. I just assume everything is wrong and I'll do my own research if the topic interests me.


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## pk.sax (10/6/13)

Next time I see a shitty 'guide' or prison hooch thread on here. I'm gonna start with 'die homer, die!'.


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## punkin (10/6/13)

Newcastle to a bottle top there is something added to the spirits, if indeed that was the cause.


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## goomboogo (10/6/13)

practicalfool said:


> Next time I see a shitty 'guide' or prison hooch thread on here. I'm gonna start with 'die homer, die!'.


I can see him sitting there drinking hooch, penning the Iliad.


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## thrillho (10/6/13)

citymorgue2 said:


> Isnt the first story posted about somwonw dying of homebrew. I remember one article (qld again from memory) wherr the headline was about death by homebrew and the pics they showef were of homebrewed beer. Wasnt ubtil somway through the article that it said they died from alc poisoning from the huge amount of homemade spirits they were making.
> 
> Journalists suck arse and are fkn lazy sensationalist wankers.


Some journalists perhaps. Hard to include me in this one, I take offence! 


...have a home brew


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## mwd (10/6/13)

On Ten News this morning they did report it as home distilled spirit.
Reminds me of Saudi Arabia where peoples houses blew up doing illegal spirits when the still went bang.


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## JDW81 (10/6/13)

Edak said:


> Funny that, to much oxygen does the same thing. You need carbon dioxide in the air for respiratory drive. This is why oxygen lines in hospitals actually contain about 5% CO2.


Not quite as simple as that. 100% O2 for someone who is healthy won't depress respiratory drive as respiration rate/depth is driven by the level of CO2 in the blood. This has to do with the oxygen-haemoglobin dissociation curve. O2 at quite low concentrations in the inspired air still binds to Hb with such affinity that you will still float around 80% saturation. A partial pressure of oxygen of 50 mmHg will still give you O2 sats of ~80%, so you need to be pretty hypoxic before your body responds by increasing respiration. However, a slightly increased level of blood CO2 will greatly increase your respiratory drive (sensed by various neural structures in the body) as increased CO2 lowers the pH of your blood and can spell bad news if it isn't dealt with (this is irrespective of your O2 saturation). 

O2 only depresses respiratory drive in cases where people have a chronic high level of CO2 floating around in the blood (COPD is one such condition). This attenuates the bodies response to CO2 and their respiration is driven by their levels of O2 (which is a much less sensitive system). Giving someone like this O2 can depress their respiratory drive, and in a worst case scenario stop them from breathing.

So yes, oxygen can be a respiratory depressant, but only in people who rely on hypoxic respiratory drive, not hypercapnic respiratory drive.

JD


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## brettprevans (10/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Probably drank the heads and tails as well.
> 
> Sorry shouldn't discuss that on this forum.


yup. Heads are basicly metho. Soe later parts od head can be used for flavouring but the first few liters are death.


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## jgriffin (10/6/13)

JDW81 said:


> Not quite as simple as that. 100% O2 for someone who is healthy won't depress respiratory drive as respiration rate/depth is driven by the level of CO2 in the blood. This has to do with the oxygen-haemoglobin dissociation curve. O2 at quite low concentrations in the inspired air still binds to Hb with such affinity that you will still float around 80% saturation. A partial pressure of oxygen of 50 mmHg will still give you O2 sats of ~80%, so you need to be pretty hypoxic before your body responds by increasing respiration. However, a slightly increased level of blood CO2 will greatly increase your respiratory drive (sensed by various neural structures in the body) as increased CO2 lowers the pH of your blood and can spell bad news if it isn't dealt with (this is irrespective of your O2 saturation).
> 
> O2 only depresses respiratory drive in cases where people have a chronic high level of CO2 floating around in the blood (COPD is one such condition). This attenuates the bodies response to CO2 and their respiration is driven by their levels of O2 (which is a much less sensitive system). Giving someone like this O2 can depress their respiratory drive, and in a worst case scenario stop them from breathing.
> 
> ...



You beat me to it. Breathing 100% pure oxygen (accelerated decompression diving) has certainly never caused me to stop breathing yet  CO2 has certainly tried to kill me though!

Back to the original story, i'd be curious to eventually find out how much of this grappa they consumed.


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## chewy (10/6/13)

I'd say it was homebrew spirit... Probably accidentally made a delicious batch of methanol..


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## Parks (10/6/13)

citymorgue2 said:


> yup. Heads are basicly metho. Soe later parts od head can be used for flavouring but the first few liters are death.


This isn't true. Firstly, "metho" is a term used to describe the foul taste added to cleaning alcohol so people don't drink it.

Secondly, it's only the first 50-100ML which could be considered concentrated methanol, and the vast majority of available fermentables produce little to no methanol period.


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## sillyboybrybry (10/6/13)

citymorgue2 said:


> yup. Heads are basicly metho. Soe later parts od head can be used for flavouring but the first few liters are death.


If I was to make spirits, I would be doing it on a small scale basis and would be producing only say 1.5 litres of 160 proof.
Glad I dont do it because by your accounting I would have to throw the whole lot away.
But then I would have hot non alcoholic wash... wonder if that is in any way drinkable???


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## Rowy (10/6/13)

Having lived in Stanthorpe and farmed at Ballendean I thought straight away.........Grappa.........and sure enough Grappa it was. Lots of old stills in that country. Interestingly it appears the 'victims' are relatively young. Didn't quite learn the process perhaps........or just decided to have a skolling competition. I've seen a couple of people peg out from skolling straight commercial spirits let alone something infinitely stronger.


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## Parks (11/6/13)

So it turns out the old man also distilled diesel. I'd say fair chance someone grabbed the wrong bottle...


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## punkin (11/6/13)

now we're getting somewhere. Looks like i'm going to win a bottletop.


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## Parks (11/6/13)

Funny that no article or news report has mentioned the legality of distilling. One guy on Ten news even drank some of his Grappa in front of the camera.


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## evildrakey (11/6/13)

My Theorycraft here is that they were probably collecting the heads to use as a fuel/solvent rather than throwing each batch away, and perhaps mistakenly they drank a full bottle of pure heads, which would have given those symptoms.

A batch of spirit with small amounts of Methanol would have those immediate heads, a jar full of Methanol/Acetone/other nasties would have done the trick...

One saving grace is that most Australians who distill, seem to do sugar washes, which are not known to produce high levels of Methanol.


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## sillyboybrybry (11/6/13)

Parks said:


> Funny that no article or news report has mentioned the legality of distilling. One guy on Ten news even drank some of his Grappa in front of the camera.


It is perfectly legal to distil alcohol as long as you have a license You must of course keep records and pay excise to the ATO.
You can distil other things but not alcohol if you have a still under 5 litres capacity.

http://www.ato.gov.au/content/66216.htm


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (11/6/13)

dammag said:


> Before reading the story I thought he might have been electrocuted..........



I know it was Methanol that probably killed the guys, but when reading this bit i straight away thought "KegKing Elements".... ZAP!


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## Bribie G (11/6/13)

Of course trust minister Borbidge to chip in "duh home duh brew has it's dangers duh". As usual wouldn't have a bloody clue - apparently his mother still lays out his matching socks for him every morning.


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## slash22000 (11/6/13)

Another article reporting it as "beer"

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/06/10/22/32/two-dead-after-drinking-home-brew-in-qld

"A second Queensland man has died after drinking a batch of home-brewed beer."

-_-


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## tricache (11/6/13)

Absolutely stupid...I feel dumber for reading them all

The guys were probably drinking what most race cars use as fuel.

Isn't distilling already a bit of a grey area anyway?


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## Parks (11/6/13)

sillyboybrybry said:


> It is perfectly legal to distil alcohol as long as you have a license You must of course keep records and pay excise to the ATO.
> You can distil other things but not alcohol if you have a still under 5 litres capacity.
> 
> http://www.ato.gov.au/content/66216.htm


This is true but hardly likely IMO.


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## chefeffect (11/6/13)

I just cant wait till they have a full article on what happened so I can post it back on the walls of those that have posted it on mine. Sick of people assuming its dangerous, and also assuming home brewing is for cheap bogans who can't afford Carlton cold.


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## sillyboybrybry (11/6/13)

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/four-could-die-after-home-brew-kills-second-man-brother-and-friend-still-fighting-for-lives-in-hospital/story-fnihsrf2-1226661406694

headline still home brew.
second paragraph in :

Health experts say it is the worst Australian home distillery tragedy in memory.
Joel Lynam, 21, died at the weekend after drinking homemade grappa at a Ballandean property, south of Warwick.


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## Bizier (12/6/13)

cremmerson said:


> For those dissing journalist (especially the elegant citymorgue2) most police reporters faithfully report information provided as background by police. Yes, they will try and make it interesting, and perhaps they don't always get it right, but very few stray beyond police backgrounding.
> 
> (Perhaps a bit sensitive - ended a 7.416 year journalism career two days ago).


I found it offensive on reading the mighty West Australian that the headline was confirming death by homebrew, though article stated that police are investigating a link to substances found at scene. That said, the rest of the paper also offends me 100% of the time anyway.


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## Parks (12/6/13)

Bizier said:


> I found it offensive on reading the mighty West Australian that the headline was confirming death by homebrew, though article stated that police are investigating a link to substances found at scene. That said, the rest of the paper also offends me 100% of the time anyway.


I almost wonder if the "homebrew industry" would have a libel case against this kind of scare mongering and blatantly ignorant reporting?


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## brad81 (12/6/13)

Parks said:


> I almost wonder if the "homebrew industry" would have a libel case against this kind of scare mongering and blatantly ignorant reporting?


I fail to see how this would differ from political, or even any form of journalism in its current state. However, that is another discussion on its own.

In somewhat related news, what is the "Seven Deadly Malts" in your signature?


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## Bubba Q (12/6/13)

a third fellow died last night


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## Parks (12/6/13)

brad81 said:


> In somewhat related news, what is the "Seven Deadly Malts" in your signature?


Why would you try to take this thread :icon_offtopic: h34r:
:lol:

My latest stout had 7 dark malts in it and I had to come up with a name. It's a derivation of the seven deadly sins but I'm not sure it covers all of them (I guess what it lacks I can make up for h34r: )


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## Bribie G (12/6/13)

Fourth guy is showing signs of improvement.

I know little about distilling but I'd guess it would take an absolute shedload of pre-fermented discarded grape skins to make grappa and conceivably they were just too quick to get into the first runnings or heads or whatever and got a fatal dose of CH3OH.

Question is, did they actually know how to make the stuff or were they sneakily using the kit that they had just casually seen Dad using a couple of times. "wow here comes the piss dudes, that was quick, hand me that glass"


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## Josho (12/6/13)

If it was death by home brew - done properly - wow what a great way to go.


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## Dave70 (12/6/13)

There's certainly something to be said for knowing your topic.

Brewing or otherwise. remember this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081991/Death-cap-mushrooms-New-Years-Eve-dinner-party-attendees-die-poisonous-food.html


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## chewy (12/6/13)

Unfortunately media and politicians seem to be unaccountable for giving false or misleading information!


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## tricache (12/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Fourth guy is showing signs of improvement.
> 
> I know little about distilling but I'd guess it would take an absolute shedload of pre-fermented discarded grape skins to make grappa and conceivably they were just too quick to get into the first runnings or heads or whatever and got a fatal dose of CH3OH.
> 
> Question is, did they actually know how to make the stuff or were they sneakily using the kit that they had just casually seen Dad using a couple of times. "wow here comes the piss dudes, that was quick, hand me that glass"


I was thinking that exactly...no idea what they were actually doing but just wanted quick booze

On another note, ABC are now saying "Home Distilled Spirit called Grappa" and the men died from ethanol poisoning


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## bum (12/6/13)

And I get reported for swearing?

Mind boggles.


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## bradsbrew (12/6/13)

bum said:


> And I get reported for swearing?
> 
> Mind boggles.


You posted whilst i was cleaning the thread, Bum.

Some of the posts made in this thread have been downright disgusting and dissapointing.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/6/13)

Journalism 1.1

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.


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## Adr_0 (12/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Fourth guy is showing signs of improvement.
> 
> I know little about distilling but I'd guess it would take an absolute shedload of pre-fermented discarded grape skins to make grappa and conceivably they were just too quick to get into the first runnings or heads or whatever and got a fatal dose of CH3OH.
> 
> Question is, did they actually know how to make the stuff or were they sneakily using the kit that they had just casually seen Dad using a couple of times. "wow here comes the piss dudes, that was quick, hand me that glass"


Yeah exactly.  I was explaining to SWMBO last night just how much risk there is of pulling off the wrong compounds, particularly when you start with fruit and are likely to have a lot of methanol. Stick to beer - the worst that can happen is death by bottle explosion... :huh:


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## tallie (12/6/13)

I was interviewed by ABC South Qld (Toowoomba) radio this morning, and for a pleasant change, the main point was differentiating "home brewing" from "home distilling". It's good that the presenter was aware of the difference and how much it makes us cringe when they refer to distilling as home brewing. There was talk about infected beers, but hopefully I got the point across about the difference in toxicity.

Here's hoping the rest of the media catches on, but unfortunately I think a bit of damage has already been done. At least nine news are now reporting that it was distilled spirits (despite still having "home brew" in the headline) - unlike yesterday's reckless reporting.


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## chefeffect (12/6/13)

bradsbrew said:


> You posted whilst i was cleaning the thread, Bum.
> 
> Some of the posts made in this thread have been downright disgusting and dissapointing.


Would have to agree!! Talk about bad media for home brew what about some of this past thread?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (12/6/13)

@tallie - you're become a bit of an ABC media personality, aren't you?

It can only be good for the craft, you actually have the ability to refute the falseness of these statements, albeit your audience is still somewhat limited.


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## bum (12/6/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> refute the falseness of these statements


Lucky they asked tallie and not you - we'd all be in irons!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (12/6/13)

bum said:


> Lucky they asked tallie and not you - we'd all be in irons!


You're not entitled to an opinion, and I rarely have one. h34r:


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## tallie (12/6/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> @tallie - you're become a bit of an ABC media personality, aren't you?


Ha! I think some have referred to it more as a media tart than media personality  Always happy to dispel the myths and get the good word out about amateur brewing when I can!


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

There are some on this site who have led very sheltered lives me thinks. I say that on a whole number of levels.........


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## Dave70 (12/6/13)

bum said:


> And I get reported for swearing?
> 
> Mind boggles.


About time you got your comeuppance, potty mouth - (fingers).


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## punkin (12/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Fourth guy is showing signs of improvement.
> 
> I know little about distilling but I'd guess it would take an absolute shedload of pre-fermented discarded grape skins to make grappa and conceivably they were just too quick to get into the first runnings or heads or whatever and got a fatal dose of CH3OH.
> 
> Question is, did they actually know how to make the stuff or were they sneakily using the kit that they had just casually seen Dad using a couple of times. "wow here comes the piss dudes, that was quick, hand me that glass"



You're a good guy mate, but it's obvious that you really do know little about distilling. As i said earlier in the thread, if they had drunk all heads, they would have suffered nothing more than a severe headache and a baaaad hangover.

The only way they could have died from undoctored distilled spirit from wine or grape skins is if they overdosed on ethanol. As in drinking litres of high proof.

There is nothing in wine that will kill you except ethanol and there is nothing in distilled wine except wine. 



tallie said:


> I was interviewed by ABC South Qld (Toowoomba) radio this morning, and for a pleasant change, the main point was differentiating "home brewing" from "home distilling". It's good that the presenter was aware of the difference and how much it makes us cringe when they refer to distilling as home brewing. There was talk about infected beers, but hopefully I got the point across about the difference in toxicity.
> 
> Here's hoping the rest of the media catches on, but unfortunately I think a bit of damage has already been done. At least nine news are now reporting that it was distilled spirits (despite still having "home brew" in the headline) - unlike yesterday's reckless reporting.



I'd be very keen to hear that interview and how you portrayed you knowledge of distillation while diferentiating between homebrewing and home distilling. Please post a link.
There is a very wide base of the community who would love to see true information disseminated and a movement for legalisation of the hobby.


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## bradsbrew (12/6/13)

punkin said:


> The only way they could have died from undoctored distilled spirit from wine or grape skins is if they overdosed on ethanol. As in drinking litres of high proof.
> 
> There is nothing in wine that will kill you except ethanol and there is nothing in distilled wine except wine.


One of the reports is now saying it may have had anti-freeze in it.


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## Adr_0 (12/6/13)

punkin said:


> The only way they could have died from undoctored distilled spirit from wine or grape skins is if they overdosed on ethanol. As in drinking litres of high proof.
> 
> There is nothing in wine that will kill you except ethanol and there is nothing in distilled wine except wine.


...and methanol.


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## Parks (12/6/13)

Adr_0 said:


> ...and methanol.


There is a 0% chance that this happened unless they were using lab grade equipment to separate methanol from ethanol and were deliberately keeping and consuming it.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (12/6/13)

Topping up the brew with metho (or antifreeze)? I'm no expert, but I am curious.


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## Adr_0 (12/6/13)

Parks said:


> There is a 0% chance that this happened unless they were using lab grade equipment to separate methanol from ethanol and were deliberately keeping and consuming it.


Not saying they separated it from the ethanol (you're right, a lot of stages in a distillation column needed for that) but that it was probably produced in a decent proportion if they are using fruit (pectin). Dunno, pretty sure acetone or glycol would kill you just as dead...


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

What I can tell you is that your talking banjo country where that property was. Could have been trying to cut / improve / mix it with anything.


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## tricache (12/6/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Topping up the brew with metho (or antifreeze)? I'm no expert, but I am curious.


Same here...that sounds pretty crazy


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## Parks (12/6/13)

Adr_0 said:


> Not saying they separated it from the ethanol (you're right, a lot of stages in a distillation column needed for that) but that it was probably produced in a decent proportion if they are using fruit (pectin). Dunno, pretty sure acetone or glycol would kill you just as dead...


Even in the most likely situations (like a wine or cider high in pectins) they would have to consume the methanol from something like 400L of cider/wine (I'm not sure on the exact volume but it's rediculous).

Antifreeze sounds like a very likely culprit. Very interested to hear the findings (they probably won't tell us).


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## bum (12/6/13)

Rowy said:


> There are some on this site who have led very sheltered lives me thinks. I say that on a whole number of levels.........


You may have missed the one about the child sex-slave trade.


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## tallie (12/6/13)

punkin said:


> You're a good guy mate, but it's obvious that you really do know little about distilling. As i said earlier in the thread, if they had drunk all heads, they would have suffered nothing more than a severe headache and a baaaad hangover.
> 
> The only way they could have died from undoctored distilled spirit from wine or grape skins is if they overdosed on ethanol. As in drinking litres of high proof.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not sure if they'll post a recording. It should be here if they do: http://www.abc.net.au/southqld/programs/southern_queensland_mornings/

I tried not to comment on distillation, as I have no experience on the matter. I did mention that methanol can be present in all alcoholic beverages, albeit at very low levels. My source for this is http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc196.htm#SubSectionNumber:2.4.1:



> Greizerstein (1981) utilized GC-FID and GC-MS for the analysis of
> alcohols, aldehydes and esters in commercial beverages (beers, wines,
> distilled spirits). ... Methanol was found at
> levels of 6-27 mg/litre beer; 96-321 mg/litre in wines and
> 10-220 mg/litre in distilled spirits.


My reference for methanol toxicity was Wikipedia (lame, I know), and mentioned at those rates, we're talking 100's of litres of wine or 1000's of litres of beer for permanent damage.


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## chefeffect (12/6/13)

tallie said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure if they'll post a recording. It should be here if they do: http://www.abc.net.au/southqld/programs/southern_queensland_mornings/
> 
> I tried not to comment on distillation, as I have no experience on the matter. I did mention that methanol can be present in all alcoholic beverages, albeit at very low levels. My source for this is http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc196.htm#SubSectionNumber:2.4.1:
> 
> My reference for methanol toxicity was Wikipedia (lame, I know), and mentioned at those rates, we're talking 100's of litres of wine or 1000's of litres of beer for permanent damage.


If you email the abc they will email an mp3 of the recording. Just Google the program you where on and you should find an email address I have received a recording from centralvic abc in the past. They will tell you not to share on any other media platform with out permission but you can email or PM people the recording.


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## Scobieb (12/6/13)

Yeah read this story about a week okay, it was spirits they were making.


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## tricache (12/6/13)

Has anyone else been coping the "homebrew = crap" a bit more than usual since this happened...I think I have had about 10 guys at work give me sh*t about homebrew beer and thought it might have been me or "I always knew that homebrew stuff was pretty bad" ect <_<


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## pcmfisher (12/6/13)

I would suggest the damage was done by drinking high proof (80 -90%) alcohol.
Doesn't really matter whether its ethanol, methanol or what ever, you might as well be drinking petrol.


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## Parks (12/6/13)

tricache said:


> Has anyone else been coping the "homebrew = crap" a bit more than usual since this happened...I think I have had about 10 guys at work give me sh*t about homebrew beer and thought it might have been me or "I always knew that homebrew stuff was pretty bad" ect <_<


Nope. My work mates rate my beer much higher than I do. I keep saying it's because I know the faults etc but they don't care.

The term "home brew" has been pretty badly tarnished by all manner of brewing. IMO in 10 years it should have turned around with the wealth of knowledge easily available today.


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## Adr_0 (12/6/13)

Parks said:


> Even in the most likely situations (like a wine or cider high in pectins) they would have to consume the methanol from something like 400L of cider/wine (I'm not sure on the exact volume but it's rediculous).
> 
> Antifreeze sounds like a very likely culprit. Very interested to hear the findings (they probably won't tell us).


Are you saying they didn't consume 400+ litres...

Got it. Have never looked at the numbers (i.e. ~0.5-2%) produced, but have heard a hell of a lot of stories about people being 'body drunk' off similar stuff (grappa, fruit brandies) and of course blindness and death where methanol has copped the blame.... fairly/unfairly or accurately I don't know. With a mean lethal dose of about 80mL they would have needed to hit 4L of the stuff...

Or, 15-20mL of antifreeze (ethylene glycol)...


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## tricache (12/6/13)

Parks said:


> Nope. My work mates rate my beer much higher than I do. I keep saying it's because I know the faults etc but they don't care.
> 
> The term "home brew" has been pretty badly tarnished by all manner of brewing. IMO in 10 years it should have turned around with the wealth of knowledge easily available today.


I work with a lot of Corona, VB and Miller Lite people...I now see the problem <_<


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## Parks (12/6/13)

Adr_0 said:


> Are you saying they didn't consume 400+ litres...


That's 400L before distillation. Very rough numbers but yeah, I'm saying they didn't (couldn't) possibly drink that much.

As Rowy alluded they may not be from the highest socioeconomic background either...


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## Dave70 (12/6/13)

I blame the current spate of DIY programs airing on the Fox network. 

http://youtu.be/rMauhz9V_Ck


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

bum said:


> You may have missed the one about the child sex-slave trade.


And where was that? I saw some blokes having a joke or two about adult females.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (12/6/13)

Rowy said:


> And where was that? I saw some blokes having a joke or two about adult females.


I saw it about a millisecond before it was deleted by Brad, Rowy.

Started as "get a 2nd wife, used model" to "get a 2nd wife, used model plus kids" and escalated from there. It was pretty crass, not the usual AHB smut that we're all used to.


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

I'm pretty sure everyone was talking about the wife.


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## Florian (12/6/13)

Rowy, those posts came after the ones you mentioned and were fortunately promptly deleted. 

I'm all for bad jokes and often don't agree with the moderation on here but that post was just outright disgusting. 

Nothing to do with sheltered lives.

EDIT: beaten, and no, this post was not about the wife, bum's interpretation pretty much summed it up.


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## sillyboybrybry (12/6/13)

tricache said:


> Has anyone else been coping the "homebrew = crap" a bit more than usual since this happened...I think I have had about 10 guys at work give me sh*t about homebrew beer and thought it might have been me or "I always knew that homebrew stuff was pretty bad" ect <_<



Yes and I am not even at work - getting sent the news links on facebook and text messages.



Parks said:


> Nope. My work mates rate my beer much higher than I do. I keep saying it's because I know the faults etc but they don't care.
> 
> The term "home brew" has been pretty badly tarnished by all manner of brewing. IMO in 10 years it should have turned around with the wealth of knowledge easily available today.


Most people I know that have issues with homebrew are the people that used to make it and I am guessing made it badly.


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## Florian (12/6/13)

No need to repeat it all, LRG.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (12/6/13)

Florian said:


> No need to repeat it all, LRG.


Just deleted, long enough for Rowy to have a look, and you summed it up pretty well (and beat me).

I tried to explain it as reasonably as possible without being too detailed.


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## sillyboybrybry (12/6/13)

I had a bit of a joke at the start but as it went along even I thought it was starting to go a bit far - and that is a long way gone for me.
Or maybe I am just getting older and more conservative?
Next thing you know I will be supporting Tony Abbott.


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

No dramas missed what was posted later. All good. Might just hit the kitchen and have a brew!


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

I have now read the later post and am disgusted. My apologies gents. Those that know me on here would know what I would have thought of that. I enjoy a joke and a dig but agree some things are just beyond laughing at.


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## bum (12/6/13)

That's what I was saying.


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## Mattress (12/6/13)

Rowy said:


> I enjoy a joke and a dig but agree some things are just beyond laughing at.


Totally agree, and I'm more twisted than the normal person.


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## Black Devil Dog (12/6/13)

It would seem that their deaths may have actually been caused by drinking alcohol used to make Bio-diesel. Very tragic and certainly not a topic to be made fun of.

A bit of respect to everyone involved would be good. 

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17566570/dead-men-drank-diesel-ingredient-friend/


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## tricache (12/6/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It would seem that their deaths may have actually been caused by drinking alcohol used to make Bio-diesel. Very tragic and certainly not a topic to be made fun of.
> 
> A bit of respect to everyone involved would be good.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17566570/dead-men-drank-diesel-ingredient-friend/


Holy cow!! No wonder things went bad!


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

Rowy said:


> No dramas missed what was posted later. All good. Might just hit the kitchen and have a brew!


Aaaaah nothing like the taste of a Mosaic AIPA to get the taste of shoe leather out of your mouth


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (12/6/13)

All good, mate. I know you in real person, and what you feel about this sort of stuff.

How do you like Mosaic? I am finding it a really good contrast to Citra and the passionfruit or citrus hops. Almost like a berry and melon flavour.


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## Florian (12/6/13)

Save a bottle for the 22nd if you can, mate. Haven't consciously had Mosaic yet.


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## Ross (12/6/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It would seem that their deaths may have actually been caused by drinking alcohol used to make Bio-diesel. Very tragic and certainly not a topic to be made fun of.
> 
> A bit of respect to everyone involved would be good.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17566570/dead-men-drank-diesel-ingredient-friend/


Seems like the truth is finally out in that report, hopefully this will see an end to this thread...


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## bum (12/6/13)

Perhaps posting in it will stop it from bumping, Ross?


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## treefiddy (12/6/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It would seem that their deaths may have actually been caused by drinking alcohol used to make Bio-diesel. Very tragic and certainly not a topic to be made fun of.
> 
> A bit of respect to everyone involved would be good.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17566570/dead-men-drank-diesel-ingredient-friend/


That truly sucks.

The surviving brother and his father now have to deal with the loss and destruction of their family in the national spotlight.

Way to go media. I suppose it won't take long for ACA/TT to get in there and do some invasive story. Wankers.


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## Rowy (12/6/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> All good, mate. I know you in real person, and what you feel about this sort of stuff.
> 
> How do you like Mosaic? I am finding it a really good contrast to Citra and the passionfruit or citrus hops. Almost like a berry and melon flavour.


I love it Chris! I get berry and melon with a slight tartness on the finish.




Florian said:


> Save a bottle for the 22nd if you can, mate. Haven't consciously had Mosaic yet.


Done mate I've got a couple of bottles sitting beside my swap beers.


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## Nick JD (12/6/13)

Biodiesel? I can drink a litre of vegetable oil - I'll probably either spew or have really slippery shit, but what's the go with biodiesel?

Don't tell me they tried to distill the petrol off E85?


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## Josho (12/6/13)

Do you think its bio diesel?

or maybe these blokes run dragsters or something making their own top fuel stuff?

The first story wasnt truthful so maybe this is not either.


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## mikec (12/6/13)

Darwin at work.
Nothing to see here.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/6/13)

Just a bit of info...

When you make Bio- desiel you disolve caustic soda in methenol/ethenol.....

One would hate to think what would happen ...


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## DU99 (12/6/13)

and at the start of the story it was HOME BREW BEER..no sorry we got it wrong from the media... :angry: :angry:


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## wombil (12/6/13)

Biodiesel is great stuff.made heaps of it.
Ingredients are .used vegetable oil/fats,
caustic soda 
AND methanol which is a deadly poison. Some of that mixed in would kill anything.Ya don't even have to drink it.
Ethanol is just metho or the same alcohol that's in beer,rum ,whisky ,vodka etc.

If biodiesel was being made there then I,ll bet punkin;s bottletop methanol was the culprit.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/6/13)

I would go as far as they grabed the metho csustic mix.......sure fire death


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## emnpaul (12/6/13)

I doubt it would have involved the use of caustic soda etc. I'd suggest that the Bio-Diesel referred to in the link may have in fact been wood alcohol, which is methanol, not ethanol. 20-30 years ago wood distillation for fuel was still pretty common in some parts of NSW and probably still occurs in some areas, such as the part of Queensland these guys came from.

When an uneducated and broke guy in his early 20's hears "wood alcohol" he wouldn't necessarily think "oh shit dude, that's methanol, we'll die". He might think "it's free and we'll get pissed...". Darwin award might be a bit harsh I reckon. I'd reserve Darwin award nominations for those that know the danger and proceed regardless, which these guys likely did not.

Pretty tragic whatever happened.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/6/13)

Would ypu know if you had a caustic alc mix added to coke.

The rate of caustic to alc is not as strong as you would think


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## chefsantos (12/6/13)

on ABC they just said it was home made grappa

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-11/men-fighting-for-lives-after-second-man-dies-from-home-grappa/4745014


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/6/13)

point taken


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## Phoney (12/6/13)

> Alcohol was usually administered through a drip, but Dr Pillans said the hospital ran out so they had to feed Mr Lynam vodka through a nasal-gastric tube.


That's how I always drink vodka!


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## punkin (13/6/13)

Beaten to the link, but i still say my bottletop is looking good. You would be comatose or dead from ethanol poisoning looong before any methanol poisoning if you drank any normal accepted fermentation, distilled or not.

I have never seen a link or any evidence to refute this.
Every time one of these cases hit the news across the world there is the same story behind it, usually for profit, occasionally from ignorance, but it involves people drinking chemicals that have been added to an ethanol mix or just plain methanol/antifreeze ect being drunk.

I agree that some respect should be shown, but i don't understand why Ross wants the thread to die.


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## felten (17/6/13)

Bah, just this morning heard this reported on 3AW as a "tainted batch of home brew" claiming 3 lives, no clarification at all.


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## wombil (17/6/13)

Don't know about killing this thread.
There would be a lot of people who read this forum and make spirits too,or have access to methanol and are not aware of the dangers thereof.
If the message gets through and saves someone a lot of grief then it has served a purpose.


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## mattdean4130 (1/7/13)

T.T.B.Co said:


> What a crock of shit. I am drinking a VB clone and im ok :icon_drunk:


You cloned, VB? Why on earth would you do that? That's a waste of tapwater!


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## punkin (2/7/13)

For those here who are still sticking to the view that making a foreshots cut would have removed any methanol from the grappa please view the report here...

http://bookshop.europa.eu/en/a-study-on-the-possibilities-to-lower-the-content-of-methyl-alcohol-in-eaux-de-vie-de-fruits-pbCGNA16864/


excerpt;


> Investigating the behaviour of methanol during the distillation it appears, that methanol is a companion of ethanol and therefore, by the possibilities of pot still distillation(2.3), rather hard to separate from ethanol. The investigation shows that there is in g/hl p.a. [pure alcohol] an increase of methanol contents during the distillation and especially in the last fractions (tailings). This is caused by the fact that methanol is, in spite of the lower boiling point (64,8°C) compared to ethanol (78,3°C), carried over in the distillate later than ethanol, an observation that is also confirmed by former investigations and in the literature.
> The molecule structures however, show another aspect: ethanol has got one more CH2-group which makes the molecule less polar. So, concerning polarity, methanol can be ranged between water and ethanol and has therefore in the water phase a distillation behaviour different from ethanol. This may explain the behaviour which is rather contrary to the boiling points. This is no single appearance, because for example ethylacetate with a boiling point of 77°C, or, as an extreme case, is oamylacetate with 142°C are even carried over much earlier than methanol. Therefore methanol can not be separated using pot stills or normal column stills. Only special columns can separate methanol from the distillate(4.3).



These guys could not have died from drinking unadulterated home made spirits made from sugar, fruit or grains.


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