# Ways To Increase Malt Aromas/flavour



## clean brewer (22/10/09)

Hello all,

Just received some feedback today on 4 of my Beers in the QABC, while I didnt particularly research the styles and brew specifically for the Comp, I would like a little advice on the Topic at Hand....  

Basically, in nearly all the Beers from 2 Scoresheets for each beer, it was noted that their was little or no Malt Aroma!!!! :unsure: 

So, could this be from using maybe a Plain Base Malt that doesnt have enough goodness? Or do I need to add some more intense/flavoursome Malts/Spec Malts to my Brews? Or because they could be mashed a little low in temp? Or could the BU:GU be out of whack for the Style?

While I dont really want to be posting Recipes/Temps/Schedules etc, Im just hoping for some general advice in helping increase Malt Aroma etc.

Cheers

:icon_cheers: CB


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## Tony (22/10/09)

I always got knocked for the oposite.............. too malty

I made an IIPA with pale malt and 5% crystal.......... and over half a KG or hops in 20 liters. Comp results were........ too malty. Fermented from 1.090 to 1.008 with US-05 ??????????

how do you win?

And dont think mashing warmer will increase malt flavour or aroma.......... it will just make the beer less fermentable..... thats all. i have made beers that fermented dry as dry mashed at 60 deg c but were malty to hold it up.

A few things i think help maltiness:

Freshly cracked malt in the mash. no more than over night! Im sure it goes stale once cracked faster than we want to know. Like a slice of bread left in the open air.
A cooler sparge. I dont know the science behind it but i get better results with a slow cool (72 deg) sparge.
CaCl (Calcium Cloride) in the mash. IT lowers the mash pH like CaSo4 (Gypsum) but will acentuate the malt instead of the Bitterness.
Something like carahell in a Belgian Trippel or a Weizen ..... or any pale beer, will increase the malt prifile. 
and dont be afraid of the specialty malts.

Id like to see the recipes for the beers in question.

cheers


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## sav (22/10/09)

Did they mention BU or GU or hop intencity all can play a part,I am know judge at all far from it, but than can be so many things it can be did they specify.


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## clean brewer (22/10/09)

Ok, Ill post this info:

Dry Stout: (not brewed specifically to style, Pillar of Stout in the Recipe DB)

AROMA: *Light Malt* - No Esters - *Slight Chocolate*
AROMA: Some *Mild Malt Aromas* - *No Esters Roast or Chocolate*
OVERALL IMPRESSION: Too highly carbonated and* lacking Malt* to bring off a good Stout. Could do with *more Malt interplay* from different grains. This would do better as a Robust Porter.
OVERALL IMPRESSION: *Lacking in Roast and Malt*, quite astringent in Finish

A.I.P.A:

AROMA: Reasonable Hop Aroma, citrus notes, *light Malt but slightly lacking*. Hop Aroma could be increased.
AROMA: Low Citrus Hop Aroma, *mild sweet malt aroma*.
OVERALL IMPRESSION: Not a bad example of style but seems to be a little aged or not handled with care. Could do better with an increase in Aroma and *Fresh Malt character*
OVERALL IMPRESSION: Reasonably balanced. *Malt level balances Hop flavour but could be increased*. *Hop and Malt character could be increased.*

Australian Dark/Old Ale: (based on Hunter Old in DB)

AROMA: Hop Aroma Perfumy - out of style guidelines. Estery
AROMA: *No significant Malt Aroma*, *Very slight Bready character from malt* and some fruity ferment by products detected.
OVERALL IMPRESSION: This is quite a Big beer for the Aussie Dark Category. Judging as Tooheys Old. Otherwise a good beer.
OVERALL IMPRESSION: Very nice Beer. I believe a great example of an Old Ale. Id be happy drinking this, unfortunately OLD ALES have been thrown in a Aussie Dark Ale guidelines. So this this Beer is really being judged out of class.

A.P.A: (i didnt really enjoy this beer either)

AROMA: Sherbert, white wine aroma. More solventy as it warms up. A little Belgianny. 
AROMA: I detect a white wine character, green apple aroma, *little sweet malt aroma*.
OVERALL IMPRESSION: Alot of yeast by products in the Beer, esters, phenolic, alcohol. Control the ferment temp and the hops Malt will come through.
OVERALL IMPRESSION: Fruit derived flavours, should be from hops, where this example seems to come from the yeast and fermentation. Not really to Style, but not a bad beer all the same.

As I said, I hadnt brewed any of these specifically to style or for the Comp, but it was great to get some feedback..... A couple other comments were in relation to Ferment temp, I ferment at 17-18 so not sure there....

Also would yeast by-products come from maybe pitching onto a yeast cake? Maybe the APA is too light to be re-pitching and flavours easily detected...

:icon_cheers: CB

Nothing about BU:GU which I reckon could be quite important, also it would help if the whole forms were filled out properly, also I can only tell that 1/2 the judges stated they were Non-BJCP.....


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## Scruffy (22/10/09)

You know there's an Aromatic malt...?


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## hefevice (22/10/09)

clean brewer said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Just received some feedback today on 4 of my Beers in the QABC, while I didnt particularly research the styles and brew specifically for the Comp, I would like a little advice on the Topic at Hand....
> 
> ...



What yeast do you use?


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## Kai (22/10/09)

Reading those judging notes, the only beer that seems to have a specific issue with maltiness is the stout. This is from looking at the overall impression notes rather than the aroma.

Overall, I wouldn't worry about increasing the maltiness in your beers based on those judging sheets.


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## Tony (22/10/09)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Dry Stout: Hi Carb can scrub most flavours and aroma fom the beer. and judges wont sit around waiting for it to de-gas to enjoy it. 

An AIPA should be hop driven. saying it needs malt aroma is a bit rough IMO. It should be glowing green with american hop aroma.

The old ale sounds like a combination of Recipe issues (to style) and fermentation pronlems perhaps. 

APA sounds like it was infected to me.

Mate i wouldnt stress too much about lack of malt. Sounds like you have other issues to address.

And dont draw too many conclusions from comp results. you have to remember they are judged agains specific guidelines and if it doesnt fit these guidelines, as you said they wouldnt....... the judges will pick the differences as faults!

I recon you brewed some good beers but they didnt fit the guidelines for a competition............. thas all.

I brew bugger all to style for competition these days. I brew for myself, family and friends and what i find people..... and myself, like to drink. Who cares if the roast malt character isnt to to the BJCP guidelines

cheers


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## The Scientist (22/10/09)

Yeast choice plays a key roll in malt aromatics. Some strains produce stronger malt aromas, where others are very clean and leave not much aroma at all. 

Complexity of your grain bill can develop your malt aroma and personally I've found Aust malts lacking in ability to produce a substancial aroma.

Aging a bottled conditioned beer can also develop a malt aroma over time but I've only experianced this with beers which are fairly malty to start with (Bock, Ock, Mai).

Ever heard of dry graining h34r:


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## clean brewer (22/10/09)

Scruffy said:


> You know there's an Aromatic malt...?





> *EBC 33 - 42 (mash required*): Dingemans Aromatic is a mildly kilned malt that will add a strong malt aroma and deep colour when used as a specialty malt. This malt can make up to 100% of the grain bill, but it is fairly low in surplus diastatic enzymes. A hybrid Munich malt. At a rate as low as 10% it will lend a distinct, almost exaggerated malt aroma and flavour.


Ive got some now, Ill have add a little to some beers to try out....





hefevice said:


> What yeast do you use?


Ill have to double check on the missus computer, I could probably use some yeasts relevant to the Beers/Aromas/whatever, but they were just US-05, Nottingham(ah, thats one problem, it destroys everything in its path <_< )




Kai said:


> Reading those judging notes, the only beer that seems to have a specific issue with maltiness is the stout. This is from looking at the overall impression notes rather than the aroma.
> 
> Overall, I wouldn't worry about increasing the maltiness in your beers based on those judging sheets.


Cheers Kai, you brew for a job dont you? 




Tony said:


> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
> 
> Dry Stout: Hi Carb can scrub most flavours and aroma fom the beer. and judges wont sit around waiting for it to de-gas to enjoy it.
> 
> ...



Cheers aswell Tony, I didnt think the Stout was overcarbed personally but who knows... I think the APA did have some issues hey, wasnt bad, but I had some problems putting it down my throat, ive got one im drinking now from the same batch and its great....

I guess thats why people maybe dont enter comps to much as they may take it all to hard? As said, I didnt brew to style specifically, just entered in categories I thought appropriate to get some feedback.... I enjoy most of my beers and others have enjoyed some aswell, unfortunately no-one gets to drink them other than me so its hard to get feedback....  Maybe I need a Guinea Pig to send some bottles to try for Judging.....

Cheers again for comments hey, this is why I love this Forum, helpful info like this and some frivolities at times that make me laugh alot....

CB


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## The Scientist (22/10/09)

clean brewer said:


> A.P.A: (i didnt really enjoy this beer either)
> 
> AROMA: Sherbert, white wine aroma. More solventy as it warms up. A little Belgianny.
> AROMA: I detect a white wine character, green apple aroma, *little sweet malt aroma*.
> ...



Hi Clean Brewer,

The second judge for the APA was me and from memory this beer possibly had an acetaldehyde issue, hence the green apple comment. Body of the beer is fairly importaint in carying off a strong aroma as thiner beers lack depth of aroma IMO.

Hope you found the feedback useful from your score sheets. 

Cheers

TS :icon_cheers:


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## Darren (22/10/09)

CleanBrewer,

be carefull with trying to add "maltiness" to your beer as it can be misconstrued as "worty"

Try to hit your mash temps on target and all should be fine.

cheers

Darren


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## clean brewer (22/10/09)

The Scientist said:


> Hi Clean Brewer,
> 
> The second judge for the APA was me and from memory this beer possibly had an acetaldehyde issue, hence the green apple comment. Body of the beer is fairly importaint in carying off a strong aroma as thiner beers lack depth of aroma IMO.
> 
> ...


This beer was very young aswell, I pushed it out of the Fermenter and into the bottle and onto the Courier hoping it had enough time(2 weeks) to Carb up.... Feedback was good, very consistent, both judges comments were similar which is good....




Darren said:


> CleanBrewer,
> 
> be carefull with trying to add "maltiness" to your beer as it can be misconstrued as "worty"
> 
> ...


Cheers Darren, Ill still enter next year but work on my Recipes/Teqniques/Yeast/Ingredients a bit more, Im still a AG learning Virgin really... h34r: Worty? As in sweet/malty?

CB


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## Screwtop (22/10/09)

The Scientist said:


> Yeast choice plays a key roll in malt aromatics. Some strains produce stronger malt aromas, where others are very clean and leave not much aroma at all.




Good advice



clean brewer said:


> Nottingham(ah, thats one problem, it destroys everything in its path



Not true, depends on the beer, drop in some time and I'll feed you some beers made using Notto and prove it 

Cheers,

Screwy


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## clean brewer (22/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Good advice
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The yeast is still something im yet to get right into, slowly getting there.....

Will do Mike, just some comments ive heard and put 2 and 2 together... My wrong!! I guess it all comes down to everything balancing everything out hey??? Choice of every Ingredient....

CB


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## The Scientist (22/10/09)

clean brewer said:


> The yeast is still something im yet to get right into, slowly getting there.....
> 
> Will do Mike, just some comments ive heard and put 2 and 2 together... My wrong!! I guess it all comes down to everything balancing everything out hey??? Choice of every Ingredient....
> 
> CB



How do you control your fermet temp CB?


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## clean brewer (22/10/09)

The Scientist said:


> How do you control your fermet temp CB?



Ferment fridge with Temp Mate.... Maybe im pitching to warm? Usually pitch at ambient temp but then its straight into fridge set to 17 degrees..

:icon_cheers: CB


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## katzke (23/10/09)

Sounds like a combination of judges opinions and a new brewer. My wife entered a beer in the IPA category and won 3rd place. A BJCP judge at the event sampled it after the judging, and before the results were anounced, and did not have much good to say about it as an IPA. That same judge cleaned up in several categories so he does know his beers and how to brew.

As to how to fix any of the issues. Follow the advice you have gotten on mash temps, ferment temps, and water additions. My beers have improved by paying attention to those items. Are you sure your mash thermometer is correct? Other things like fresh malt are important. If you are buying pre-crushed malt, talk to the shop and find out when they mill the grain. I find I can make a nice beer with malt that is stored cold for a week or 2. I think the oldest was 3 or 4 weeks but it was kept cold or frozen (can not remember). Fresh malt is the best but no need to toss malt that has set for a bit. Oh and a lot of beer is brewed and enjoyed with just plain old 2 row base malt. You may try a different brand. I have read a few posts of people liking one brand over a second. Sorry I do not pay much attention to them as I am in the USA and get different malts.

Last thing is what did you think of the beer? Make a change and see if you like it. I have sampled some gold medal beers I do not like as much as the losers.


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## clean brewer (23/10/09)

> Are you sure your mash thermometer is correct?


Pretty sure, Ill double check this weekend.... :unsure: 


> Other things like fresh malt are important.


Malt is not old and it is Un-cracked until the night before or even on the day...  


> Last thing is what did you think of the beer? Make a change and see if you like it. I have sampled some gold medal beers I do not like as much as the losers.


I liked the Beers other than the APA which I found had some issues after I had posted them out, it went in the bottle quick and never had a chance to try it.... As for the others, Im no expert on Brewing them but plan to work on them....  Thats what its all about, Ill have to take some beers to the Swap for testing...

Ill look into some of the advice here, thanks for your helpful comments...

Anyone else feel free to chime in with your thoughts...

:icon_cheers: CB


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## bconnery (23/10/09)

> Pretty sure, Ill double check this weekend.... :unsure:
> 
> Malt is not old and it is Un-cracked until the night before or even on the day...
> 
> ...


Although it might be difficult so long after if you want to bring your stout judging notes to the swap I can try and remember a bit more about what prompted my comments on the stout. 
I know you\'ve quoted them above but I\'d like to see the whole thing...

As a general comment we found most of the entries lacking in roast character.

Edit: As a note and as a brewer who tends to stray a lot away from exact styles I would paraphrase comments above that a not so to style beer doesn\'t mean it is a bad beer. As a judge you try to comment not only on whether it meets the style but also provide feedback on the beer itself. We might not always manage but we try


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## AndrewQLD (23/10/09)

Just glanced through this thread as I am just about to race out the door on Holidays CB, A good way to increase the malt perspective of a beer is to reduce your mash efficiency. I don't know what your EFF is but if it's say 80% try getting it back down to 70% and you will notice an increase in the true maltyness of the beer.

Cheers
got to flyy

Andrew


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## clean brewer (23/10/09)

bconnery said:


> Although it might be difficult so long after if you want to bring your stout judging notes to the swap I can try and remember a bit more about what prompted my comments on the stout.
> I know you\'ve quoted them above but I\'d like to see the whole thing...
> 
> As a general comment we found most of the entries lacking in roast character.
> ...


Thanks Ben, Ill bring them to the Swap, Im only a New Brewer and have not really brewed the same beer or style twice really, Im loving my A.I.P.A's and that was my best scoring one... I would still really like to concentrate on a couple styles and brew them according to there parameters and still participate in the Comp. Next year I will have had another 9 months experience so I will focus on some styles properly.....
I was quite happy with the results other than the 1 beer I didnt like....  




AndrewQLD said:


> Just glanced through this thread as I am just about to race out the door on Holidays CB, A good way to increase the malt perspective of a beer is to reduce your mash efficiency. I don't know what your EFF is but if it's say 80% try getting it back down to 70% and you will notice an increase in the true maltyness of the beer.
> 
> Cheers
> got to flyy
> ...


Thanks Andrew, maybe Im trying to get too much out of my Grain?? My efficiency's have been quite high really....

:icon_cheers: CB


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## Bribie G (23/10/09)

Another tweak is to use a proportion of a more aromatic malt such as Munich and even a touch of Melanoidin. I entered a 'Superlandlord' which is basically a TTL attempt with an extra 500g of Munich 2 and 50g of Melanoidin, in the State Comp and it was awarded a silver. I got the tasting notes back last night at the BABBs meeting and the 2 judges comments were:

"good malt aroma with slight caramel"
and
"caramel malt aroma"

I had also reduced 2L of runnings down to 300ml so there was a bit of melanoidins and caramel coming from that as well no doubt. Might be worth a try and would certainly give more 'complexity'. I reckon Munich would go brilliantly in a stout.

I'm bringing a keg of SuperLandlord to the case swap for tasties.
This one's got the 500 Munich but no Mello and no wort caramelisation, so may give you a pointer. Actually looking at the recipe just now I think I'd better drop the Super title and just call it Landlord++ or something  
:icon_cheers:

Edit: I also put in an Aussie Old, and got 'low to Sweet malt aroma' to style. In the Aussies the malt is only supposed to be in the aftertaste to balance the hop bitterness, so in your case (and mine) little to no malt aroma required, when judging as a Tooheys old style you really need the roasty toasty up front. I had a bottle of T.O. a couple of days ago, BWS here are now selling tallies of it, and the first thing that hits you is the choc and roast, but no base malt. So I wouldn't be putting aromatic malts in an Old (Dark).


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## clean brewer (23/10/09)

BribieG said:


> Another tweak is to use a proportion of a more aromatic malt such as Munich and even a touch of Melanoidin. I entered a 'Superlandlord' which is basically a TTL attempt with an extra 500g of Munich 2 and 50g of Melanoidin, in the State Comp and it was awarded a silver. I got the tasting notes back last night at the BABBs meeting and the 2 judges comments were:
> 
> "good malt aroma with slight caramel"
> and
> ...



Ive got plenty of Munich and Vienna, Ill start incorporating some in my brews, maybe the base malts dont cut it for certain styles...

Cant wait to try it Bribie... :icon_drool2: And get some pointers......

:icon_cheers: CB


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## mje1980 (24/10/09)

I have found since using caramunich 1,2,3 in my beers instead of crystal, the malt aroma is more intense. Same with carared.

Cheers, good luck. SOme great ips in this thread, im gunna try a few of them myself.


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## Nick JD (24/10/09)

I've found the best way to increase malt flavour and aroma is to go easy on the hops. 

Leave out late hop additions and KABOOM, malty as. 

Hops trumps malt.

EDIT: I think a lot of brewers have a "more is better" mentality. To me, that's like making yourself a coffee and then adding four types of syrup and three types of sprinkly stuff on top. You can't taste the coffee anymore - and it was probably really nice tasting coffee before you put all that crap on top. A nice base malt makes a nice beer if you don't drown it in eight different weird hop additions and mash on the high end of the scale. I sometimes look at the ingredients list in the recipes forum and am astounded. How many commercial breweries use that many ingredients? I think some of my favourite beers are very close to being SMASHes. People buy wonderful yeasts and crush their flavour profiles in hops.

Rant over.


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## Bribie G (24/10/09)

I'd forgotten about the Carared. Definitely ups the malt aroma. Take a pack of Medium crystal and a pack of Carared and sniff them. The crystal smells like something you would feed to your guinea pig, but the Carared is beautiful and malty.


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## MarkBastard (24/10/09)

Tony said:


> I made an IIPA with pale malt and 5% crystal.......... and over half a KG or hops in 20 liters. Comp results were........ too malty. Fermented from 1.090 to 1.008 with US-05 ??????????



:icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:


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## clean brewer (24/10/09)

BribieG said:


> I'd forgotten about the Carared. Definitely ups the malt aroma. Take a pack of Medium crystal and a pack of Carared and sniff them. The crystal smells like something you would feed to your guinea pig, but the Carared is beautiful and malty.



Mate, Ive got all whats needed, 6kg Carared(beautiful, only have used it in 1 brew so far), Munich, Vienna so Ill be adding some of these goodies to the appropriate beers Ill make.....

:icon_cheers: CB


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## bradsbrew (24/10/09)

CB I have used special B in the last 2 brews and get a bigger malt hit. Althoughc I have been using carared, aromatic and vienna with BB ale as the base and the first one was too sweet adjusted the mash and yeast with the second and got it well balanced. the special B may throw your colour out though.

Cheers Brad


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## clean brewer (24/10/09)

bradsbrew said:


> CB I have used special B in the last 2 brews and get a bigger malt hit. Althoughc I have been using carared, aromatic and vienna with BB ale as the base and the first one was too sweet adjusted the mash and yeast with the second and got it well balanced. the special B may throw your colour out though.
> 
> Cheers Brad



Ill be giving a new brew a whirl tomoz, something simple..... Maybe its the Base Malt, probably should use something a bit fuller for beers that should be maltier/have depth.... :unsure: 

Cheers Brad

CB

What about using some Acidulated Malt in my Brews??????? :huh: Reduction of wort-pH leads to: 
a better mash working
intensified fermentation
lighter Pilsner color
improved flavor stability
well-rounded beer flavor


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## Tony (24/10/09)

I use Acidulated to 1% in pale beers using pilsner malt. WOrks a treat. I get a great malt character with just pils.

It really depends on your water chemistry...... if your pH is high it would be well worth using.

You usually dont need it in darker beers as the dark grain pulls the pH down by itsself.

Chalk is often added to stout because it raises the pH to counter all the roast grain pulling it down too low.

cheers


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## katzke (24/10/09)

Tony said:


> I use Acidulated to 1% in pale beers using pilsner malt. WOrks a treat. I get a great malt character with just pils.
> 
> It really depends on your water chemistry...... if your pH is high it would be well worth using.
> 
> ...



Boy it is great to see people doing things with their brewing water. It is not as difficult as some of the experts say it is. Just need to get some basic info so we know how much to play with for additions and the test is in the taste.


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## clean brewer (24/10/09)

Tony said:


> I use Acidulated to 1% in pale beers using pilsner malt. WOrks a treat. I get a great malt character with just pils.
> 
> It really depends on your water chemistry...... if your pH is high it would be well worth using.
> 
> ...






katzke said:


> Boy it is great to see people doing things with their brewing water. It is not as difficult as some of the experts say it is. Just need to get some basic info so we know how much to play with for additions and the test is in the taste.



This is a copy of our Water Report for our area View attachment Copy_of_Water_Quality_request_from_Jody_Fischer___Eli_Waters_26.11.08.xls


I also use 5.4.... Does this work? Our water has PH 7.5

Can anyone suggest what I may need to use in some styles of beers based on the Report.....

Cheers again guys
:icon_cheers: CB


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## Julez (24/10/09)

Out of interest, I'd like to know how independently the judges' comments are made in the xABC comps. Do the judges discuss the beer before then writing their comments? I didn't enter this year, but last year I was quite surprised by how similar the judges comments were. Part of that I'm sure was due to their good judgement  but I also got the distinct impression that some of the comments were a bit "too close for comfort". Would be interested to know how that's done if anyone can shed some light? 

Great topic though, I've been asking the same question lately about how to up the malt complexity and aroma. 

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## bconnery (24/10/09)

Julez said:


> Out of interest, I'd like to know how independently the judges' comments are made in the xABC comps. Do the judges discuss the beer before then writing their comments? I didn't enter this year, but last year I was quite surprised by how similar the judges comments were. Part of that I'm sure was due to their good judgement  but I also got the distinct impression that some of the comments were a bit "too close for comfort". Would be interested to know how that's done if anyone can shed some light?
> 
> Great topic though, I've been asking the same question lately about how to up the malt complexity and aroma.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:


The BJCP guidelines to which these comps are run discourage discussion between judges until the end when comparing score to ensure you are within the defined allowed spread (which is up to a maximum if 7 points but is often 3 or 5). 
While I can't speak for individual judges the way I like to judge is to go with my impressions of the beer and only seek the opinion of 
the judge(s) when looking to clarify a point, generally when an off flavour is involved, and then at the end with a quick discussion of what we each felt about the beer. I admit that last part is mainly for my benefit to basically pick the brains of the other judges and help reinforce my knowledge on the process. 

This is the way it has been at the comps I have been involved in, which admitedly isn't heaps yet. 

Realistically if all your judges are of a similar level thats exactly what you should get. The same two people judging a beer to style should notice similar things. Some judges are better at detecting certain flavours than others but overall you will find that feedback will be very similar but hopefully always useful...


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## Julez (24/10/09)

bconnery said:


> The BJCP guidelines to which these comps are run discourage discussion between judges until the end when comparing score to ensure you are within the defined allowed spread (which is up to a maximum if 7 points but is often 3 or 5).
> While I can't speak for individual judges the way I like to judge is to go with my impressions of the beer and only seek the opinion of
> the judge(s) when looking to clarify a point, generally when an off flavour is involved, and then at the end with a quick discussion of what we each felt about the beer. I admit that last part is mainly for my benefit to basically pick the brains of the other judges and help reinforce my knowledge on the process.
> 
> ...



That's good to know! I have only been in the one comp to date and I definitely found all the judges' comments constructive and useful. Do the same rules of thumb apply to both novice and non-BJCP judges? I had two beers entered in the QABC last year, and got two sheets back for each but none of the judges were certified or any of the higher ranked designations. 

Either way, I think it's still an excellent process and well worth the effort. 

Cheers


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## bconnery (24/10/09)

Julez said:


> That's good to know! I have only been in the one comp to date and I definitely found all the judges' comments constructive and useful. Do the same rules of thumb apply to both novice and non-BJCP judges? I had two beers entered in the QABC last year, and got two sheets back for each but none of the judges were certified or any of the higher ranked designations.
> 
> Either way, I think it's still an excellent process and well worth the effort.
> 
> Cheers


The judges in a comp should be judging in a manner that conforms to the comp rules, regardless of their qualifications or experience. 
As the QABC is run under the BJCP guidelines it should follow those. These allow for non BJCP judges but they still have to follow the rules...


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## bum (24/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> I sometimes look at the ingredients list in the recipes forum and am astounded. How many commercial breweries use that many ingredients?



How many of us brew because we are disenchanted with the offerings of commercial breweries?

How about you just worry about your own recipes and let others make beers they want?


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## Julez (24/10/09)

bum said:


> How many of us brew because we are disenchanted with the offerings of commercial breweries?
> 
> How about you just worry about your own recipes and let others make beers they want?



I think you missed his point mate. The topic is "ways to increase malt aromas/flavour". Nick was just saying that sometimes the more ingredients you add, the less a single ingredient group (i.e. malt, in this case) can stand out. I don't think he meant to bag people that use a lot of different ingredients, necessarily. 

Having said that, of course you can use a nice blend of malts and hops, but still emphasise maltiness or hoppiness depending on what you want to do. Horses for courses really


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## bum (24/10/09)

It is clearly added as an aside and referred to as a rant. He made the point you mention clearly then added the rest as an edit afterwards. I think he did mean to bag people who brew differently to the way he does because this is what he does.


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## Nick JD (25/10/09)

bum said:


> It is clearly added as an aside and referred to as a rant. He made the point you mention clearly then added the rest as an edit afterwards. I think he did mean to bag people who brew differently to the way he does because this is what he does.



Bum, you're :icon_offtopic: again. I also like to add eighteen ingredients to my beers because I want it to taste like EVERYTHING - but some really nice beer has some malt and some hops. I'm finding that nice beer doesn't always have twelve hop additions and six crystal malts. Less is sometimes more, especially with posting frequency when you only have a bone to pick rather than something substantial to contribute.


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## clean brewer (25/10/09)

Ok, so far I have put together this list of tips to help with Malt Aroma/Flavour... :super: 

Acidulated Malt
Aromatic Malt
Caraamber
Caraaroma
Carabohemian
Carahell
Caramunich's
Carared
Melanoidan
Munich Malts
Vienna Malt
Fresh Cracked Malt
Cooler Sparge
Calcium Chloride in Mash
Gypsum In Mash
Yeast Choice
Complexity of Grain Bill
Reduce Efficiency
So these seem to be some tips so far in helping with the small problem, I hope this will help others aswell...

:beer: CB


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## Julez (25/10/09)

clean brewer said:


> Ok, so far I have put together this list of tips to help with Malt Aroma/Flavour... :super:
> 
> Acidulated Malt
> Aromatic Malt
> ...



I don't get the reduced efficiency and cooler sparge options - can anyone clarify how this improves malt complexity/aroma? Not that I doubt it, but would like to understand why!

:icon_cheers:


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## bum (25/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> Bum, you're :icon_offtopic: again. I also like to add eighteen ingredients to my beers because I want it to taste like EVERYTHING - but some really nice beer has some malt and some hops. I'm finding that nice beer doesn't always have twelve hop additions and six crystal malts. Less is sometimes more, especially with posting frequency when you only have a bone to pick rather than something substantial to contribute.



You know what else is nice? Irony. Irony is really nice. That was one of the nicest posts I've ever read.

Without even knowing CB's recipes you go on to point out that the reason he isn't getting the malt character the judges would like to see is that his hop additions were not only inappropriate but excessive - and you somehow come to the conclusion that it is me being the cock.


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## browndog (25/10/09)

Bum, Nick, take your egos to PMs please, this kind of crap is ruining AHB.


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## bum (25/10/09)

I am confused. Both our posts relate to the matter at hand. Yours is the only personal one. What is your point again?


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## clean brewer (25/10/09)

Julez said:


> I don't get the reduced efficiency and cooler sparge options - can anyone clarify how this improves malt complexity/aroma? Not that I doubt it, but would like to understand why!
> 
> :icon_cheers:



Just going from Post #2 from Tony and Post #21 from AndrewQld(champion Qld Brewer)




browndog said:


> Bum, Nick, take your egos to PMs please, this kind of crap is ruining AHB.


Thanks BD,

Guys, I would hopefully really like to make this an informative Topic for others to benefit and not a Catfight between others...  

Complex Hop and Grain Bills aside, just ways to increase Malt Aroma/Flavour...

None of the Recipes had Complex Grain/Hop bills, obviously they were just out of style and/or not enough of a specific Malt/s in the Recipe......

:icon_cheers: CB


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## browndog (25/10/09)

bum said:


> I am confused. Both our posts relate to the matter at hand. Yours is the only personal one. What is your point again?



Yeah you're right mate, I bet all your 1761 posts since febuary have contributed so much to this site.


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## Nick JD (25/10/09)

When brewing a wheat, one often leaves out late hop additions to let the wheat shine through.

Try this approach with barley-only beers ... it works. Or completely ignore it, but try not to get uptight about it.

Love and kisses to all those with their panties up their cracks. :lol:


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## browndog (25/10/09)

clean brewer said:


> Just going from Post #2 from Tony and Post #21 from AndrewQld(champion Qld Brewer)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are welcome mate, I am sick of seeing so many threads like this dissintergrate into pissing contests.

cheers

Browndog


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## bullsneck (25/10/09)

This is a really interesting thread.

I've found the last couple of brews I have done have been lacking a certain 'maltiness'.

I'll take the recommendations into consideration for my next brew day.


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## buttersd70 (25/10/09)

Julez said:


> I don't get the reduced efficiency and cooler sparge options - can anyone clarify how this improves malt complexity/aroma? Not that I doubt it, but would like to understand why!
> 
> :icon_cheers:



Don't see that the cooler sparge would do much, unless there is an astringency issue. But as for the reduction in efficiency.....TB made some good points in relation to this in a post he did about 6 (?) months ago. It went roughly along the lines of.....

Effficiency is related to the total amount of _sugars _extracted from the grain, and is not related to flavour, per se. It could be considered that the flavour component of the extracted compounds is more closely related to the weight of grain per volume of runnings, rather than a function of _total sugars_, as some sugars are neutral flavoured. So, for two beers of the same grist composition, that have the same OG and volume, but differ in the efficiency, the lower efficiency beer will require more grain (to achieve the same OG, for the same volume). So the grain weight to volume is higher than for the equivilent beer with a lower efficiency.......as it has more grain (for the same volume and OG), it could be theorised that it would therefore have a higher amount of compounds directly relating to flavour than it's higher efficiency counterpart.

That's the theory of it, anyway. Just a postulation, but one that (to me at least) has some logic to it, and from my own results and experiences, I would tend to agree with.....I'm not _firmly _commited, because I don't believe there's enough hard data to prove _or _disprove the hypothesis. But I'm inclined to agree that it's quite likely.


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## Kai (25/10/09)

clean brewer said:


> Ok, so far I have put together this list of tips to help with Malt Aroma/Flavour... :super:
> 
> Acidulated Malt
> Aromatic Malt
> ...



Makes it sounds easy, doesn't it!


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## Nick JD (25/10/09)

Do crystal malts contain a higher percentage of trisacchrides? Does a higher temperature mash convert a higher percentage of these in harder water?

Does anyone actually know _what_ "maltiness" is, after the yeasts have eated what they can? 

What's left when the yeast have finished that gives a "malty" aroma? I thought the trisaccharides were fermentable, but the yeasties will east them last, and not fully. 

How much does caramelization affect maltiness, when a lot of maltiness can be had from a low level of heat during malting?

Where does one find the answers to this stuff?


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## buttersd70 (25/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> Where does one find the answers to this stuff?



In brewing literature: hard core stuff, not the efforts of 'homebrew gods'.


Try Brewing Science and Practice, or alternatively (and this would probably have a better answer to your particular question), Malting and Brewing Science. Have read the former, but (unfortunately) not the latter.


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## Nick JD (25/10/09)

buttersd70 said:


> In brewing literature: hard core stuff, not the efforts of 'homebrew gods'.
> 
> 
> Try Brewing Science and Practice, or alternatively (and this would probably have a better answer to your particular question), Malting and Brewing Science. Have read the former, but (unfortunately) not the latter.



Thanks butters. Will check it out. I have a feeling Maltriose is a culprit in this discussion.

EDIT: holy crap that book(s) is not cheap. Looking at $500 for the two volumes. Looks like I'm gonna remain ignorant.


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## Screwtop (25/10/09)

CB couldn't see any ref to sodium in your water report, maybe it is expressed as conductivity, anyway it was a detailed (as in regularly updated) report so may be worth sending your local authority an email and asking for the sodium level of your water.

Quite high in Gympie in comparison to my previous location, so difficult to produce malty beers, sodium tends to enhanse flavours as you would well know, thing is it I find it tends to enhanse hop bitterness and brightness and maltiness suffers.


Chers,

Screwy


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## Tony (25/10/09)

Firstly i will agree with other comments above........ these off topic arguments are killing this site. PM's are a great form of comunication if you have a problem. Im no angel but am really making an effort to keep things on topic. Its just spoiling it for others.



buttersd70 said:


> It could be considered that the flavour component of the extracted compounds is more closely related to the weight of grain per volume of runnings, rather than a function of _total sugars_, as some sugars are neutral flavoured. So, for two beers of the same grist composition, that have the same OG and volume, but differ in the efficiency, the lower efficiency beer will require more grain (to achieve the same OG, for the same volume). So the grain weight to volume is higher than for the equivilent beer with a lower efficiency.......as it has more grain (for the same volume and OG), it could be theorised that it would therefore have a higher amount of compounds directly relating to flavour than it's higher efficiency counterpart.
> 
> That's the theory of it, anyway. Just a postulation, but one that (to me at least) has some logic to it, and from my own results and experiences, I would tend to agree with.....I'm not _firmly _commited, because I don't believe there's enough hard data to prove _or _disprove the hypothesis. But I'm inclined to agree that it's quite likely.



Mmmmm sounds like a good theory but has some major holes in it from my thinking.

Just interested in entering a discussion on this because i believe its very interesting re. malt character of a beer. I run up around the 85% eff mark and think my beers are very malty, even with low mash temps.

The part i see as a hole is................where does the flavour come from.......... what are these compounds if there not associated with the sugars washed from the mash? 

Its a quote feasable....... but........... i dont know.......... it just has holes if you know what i mean. Id like to hear from someone "in the know" about if these compounds exist.

Great stuff........ this is what i like about AHB!

cheers


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## buttersd70 (25/10/09)

Tony said:


> Firstly i will agree with other comments above........ these off topic arguments are killing this site. PM's are a great form of comunication if you have a problem. Im no angel but am really making an effort to keep things on topic. Its just spoiling it for others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which is the reasoning behind my reticence to embrace it fully, Tony......you know that I'm not often a fence sitter, I normally hold fairly firm to opinion, but this particular question is causing wood related irritation of me piles, if you know what i mean. :lol: 

Theres just not enough info for me to swing one way or the other, atm.


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## Julez (25/10/09)

Tony said:


> Firstly i will agree with other comments above........ these off topic arguments are killing this site. PM's are a great form of comunication if you have a problem. Im no angel but am really making an effort to keep things on topic. Its just spoiling it for others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree with everything Tony has said and that's exactly why I asked! 

I'm a bit skeptical, but sometimes theory doesn't convert well to practice with brewing  . Everything is worth a crack to see for yourself. If nothing else, this thread has provided some great food for thought and further experimentation on my part, for one. I don't think anything about brewing needs to be set in stone. 

Julez.


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## Tony (25/10/09)

Yeah i know what you mean mate.

As for my cooler sparge coment before. I dont think it has any technical reasont for adding maltiness to the brew........ but i do think it reduces tannin extracion and lends to a smoother beer. THats what i find anyway and a smoother beer will usualy come across as maltier to me.

cheers


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## Julez (25/10/09)

Tony said:


> Yeah i know what you mean mate.
> 
> As for my cooler sparge coment before. I dont think it has any technical reasont for adding maltiness to the brew........ but i do think it reduces tannin extracion and lends to a smoother beer. THats what i find anyway and a smoother beer will usualy come across as maltier to me.
> 
> cheers



Makes sense, for sure Tony. 

Actually, talking of sparging, I think the whole "reduced efficiency" idea may make a bit more sense from a slightly different angle. I would imagine that the more the grain bed is disturbed and put through further process, rinsing and thinning out, the less rounded out or full-bodied the flavour will be. Compare mashing grain to making a cup of tea. Without a doubt, the smoothest, most full-bodied flavour comes when you let the tea steep, undisturbed. If you do lots of jiggling, or try to eke out more tea with more water, the flavour will be negatively effected. I am sure there must be an optimal mash time and liquor to grain ratio for flavour purposes in brewing and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a shorter sparge would also help in this area. 

Julez


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## clean brewer (25/10/09)

I brewed today, Docs Yardglass Session Lite with a little Carared, not sure if its gonna end up to lite as I ended of with a OG of 1044 :unsure: instead of 1038.... Anyhow, I had been batch sparging in 2 lots but went back to a single sparge today as my Mash Tun can handle the Volume... See how this brew turns out, maybe the double sparge is affecting things aswell????

Just rinsed the main sugar goodness instead of trying to get every little bit out... Still ended up with 82-85% efficiency....  

:icon_cheers: CB

Great info though guys.... :super:


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## Screwtop (25/10/09)

Tony said:


> Yeah i know what you mean mate.
> 
> As for my cooler sparge coment before. I dont think it has any technical reasont for adding maltiness to the brew........ but i do think it reduces tannin extracion and lends to a smoother beer. THats what i find anyway and a smoother beer will usualy come across as maltier to me.
> 
> cheers




Wish I'd said that!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the simplest explanation and is what I find also, less mash disturbance, low mash temp and cooler sparge temp. OG and yeast choice are then important so as not to finish it to low for good maltyness and mouthfeel.

Well said Tony. 

Screwy


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