# The Flag



## Bribie G (25/1/10)

One thing that annoys me about the Australian Flag debate that springs up from time to time is the "Oh the soldiers and servicemen both men and women who died defending the flag and we are going to be grinding their memory into the dust if we change the flag... wail wail wail"

They are IMHO playing "now I've got you you sons of Child molester bitches". However to take an objective view, several Commonwealth countries have adopted new national flags and in the case of Canada I could be wrong but more Canadians have given their lives for the empire than Aussies and New Zealanders put together but they gladly embraced their Maple Leaf flag back back in the 60s, 70s ????

Canadian members here, can you remember, or know of, what debates surrounded the choice of the maple leaf flag at that time? An 'inside' view on this from other colonial cousins would be illuminating.


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## Simon66 (25/1/10)

1965 is when Canada got rid of the Union Jack.

It is a about bloody time Australia got rid of it off our flag as well.

I will be flying the Eureka flag tomorrow. The union jack has no place in modern Australia.

Simon


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## Kleiny (25/1/10)

The flag was not chosen by this country and it may as well represent us as a colony and not as our own.

I would like to see new flag suggestions but keeping the southern cross.

Totally pro referendum get rid of the those silver spooners and the inbred pompess people they are. 

Would you go to war for the Queen? or for your country? i know which i would defend.

A little passion maybe

Kleiny


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## newguy (25/1/10)

The Canadian flag changed before I was born so I can't really comment on the debate at the time. I can tell you that it was a hot topic with basically the same arguments for and against as you are encountering now. The only thing different for us is that those of French descent (which is a pretty large proportion of the population - I think about 20% or so) really hate/hated the English. For them, changing the flag was a non-issue.


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## Adamt (25/1/10)

I'd say more than 20% of Australians hate the English! From a sporting point of view, at the very least.


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## Duffbowl (25/1/10)

Kleiny said:


> Would you go to war for the Queen? or for your country? i know which i would defend.



Unless things have changed recently, Aussie servicemen and servicewomen still swear an oath to QE2 as Queen of Australia when they join up.


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## newguy (25/1/10)

Adamt said:


> I'd say more than 20% of Australians hate the English! From a sporting point of view, at the very least.



I'd hazard a guess that French Canadians hate the English quite a bit more.


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## Bribie G (25/1/10)

Interesting show on ABC last week about the way the British Government basically abandoned Australia during WWII after the fall of Singapore. PM Robert Menzies spent three months in London during the early part of the War begging for help for Australia and was effectively shafted by Churchill and his cronies. The same Churchill who was instrumental in the Anzac Cove disaster. 
As a Pom who was spoon fed the "Churchill.. the greatest Briton who Ever Lived" party line, the things I have discovered since arriving in Australia and getting the other side of the picture have been jaw dropping. 

In the UK you try flying the Union Jack at Cardiff's Millenium Stadium and see what happens to you, likewise during a Rangers / Celtic game in Glasgow. Laddie.  

PS however I reckon Churchill would have made a superb AHB forum member - Never in the history of beer has so much been brewed by so few - we shall brew them in our tuns, we shall brew them with our bags, ....


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## Leigh (25/1/10)

Burn the bastards that want to change the flag I says  :runs for cover:

Nah, seriously, most of the "alternative" flags are a bucket of excrement! All for a republic, but I don't think we need to change the flag etc.


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## brettprevans (25/1/10)

Beer66 said:


> I will be flying the Eureka flag tomorrow.


unfortunately the flag has been bastardized to suit many differant agendas. 
unionist use it in their unionist agenda, saying that the rebellion was a bout workers rights.
other will say that the partakers in the rebellionists were dissenters taking up arms against their lawful govt
etrc etc

someone will always have an objection to imagry used. what ever is chosen would need to fully explain what it represents.

oh and there would also be people saying 'what about the aboriginies'. theuir flag should be in our flag. et etc. not an easy issue.


go the flag from Reckless Kelly
exerpt from the movie- 

Yahoo Serious, himself, is a republican. .... 90's version of the legendary Ned Kelly. This characteristic is portrayed throughout the film, and becomes clearly evident in one particular scene, when Ned and Dan Kelly visit Sir John, the monarchist bank executive, to reclaim Reckless Island. Here, Ned cuts the Union Jack out of Sir John's proudly exhibited Australian flag. Ned then replaces it with a blue bar mat, displaying the picture of a kangaroo, which is from his home, the Glenrowan Hotel. Sir John reacts in complete shock, saying, "But that's the British flag!." Ned then replies, throwing the Union Jack to the floor, "Well take it back to Britain!." At the end of the film, after the Kelly's had finished fighting off the corporate bankers and had won back their Island, they raise the same flag, with the kangaroo replacing the Union 
Jack.


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## Adamt (25/1/10)

Leigh said:


> All for a republic, but I don't think we need to change the flag etc.



The two really go hand in hand. No point "freeing" ourselves from the british while keeping their emblem on our flag and vice versa.


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## petesbrew (25/1/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> View attachment 35140


A bit too "QANTAS" for my liking CM.

I'd probably swing towards keeping the flag, having convict ancestry (australian royalty, right?).


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## Fourstar (25/1/10)

BribieG said:


> PS however I reckon Churchill would have made a superb AHB forum member - Never in the history of beer has so much been brewed by so few - we shall brew them in our tuns, we shall brew them with our bags, ....



we shall defend our mash tuns, whatever the cost may be... ...We shall fight in the hop farms, we shall never surrender! *Aces High!* :lol: 

Back on topic.

The whole flag debate is abit of a tough one, not only do we have to cater for the white bread (yes, bread ) Australians which have dominated this land for so long, but also the true land owners and the rest of the migrants who have helped build the foundations and made this country what is is today. with how culturally diverse this country is it might make the process quite diffucult without offending anyone unless we slap down a eucalypt or bottle brush and call at a day.

Unfortunalty i can see this process spiralling down into a flag made up of a meat pie in the shape of Uluru encased in red and green bands sitting under a cedar tree, looking up at the southern cross which is now in the arrangement of Chinese yellow stars.

The unfortunate part is there is no space at this point for the Greeks.


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## brettprevans (25/1/10)

petesbrew said:


> A bit too "QANTAS" for my liking CM.
> 
> I'd probably swing towards keeping the flag, having convict ancestry (australian royalty, right?).


yeah. 

i accidently left out the work 'something like' from my post. i meant, 'go something like the flag from....'

need a new flag. 

and call it international australia day. love it. go kekka


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## brettprevans (25/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> Unfortunalty i can see this process spiralling down into a flag made up of a meat pie in the shape of Uluru encased in red and green bands sitting under a cedar tree, looking up at the southern cross which is now in the arrangement of Chinese yellow stars.
> 
> The unfortunate part is there is no space at this point for the Greeks.


salami meat pie? 

although the cedar tree has me stumped (ha ha..tree... stumped). .arent cedar trees yankie?


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## Fourstar (25/1/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> salami meat pie?
> although the cedar tree has me stumped (ha ha..tree... stumped). .arent cedar trees yankie?



Lebanon anyone?


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## Adamt (25/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> Lebanon anyone?



CSI MEME:

I'm surprised you didnt propose removing a star from the Southern Cross...



Because then we'd have...






Four stars.






YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/1/10)

Personally, i like the Aboriginal flag.....forget whatever attitudes it brings, as a flag it is a great, simple unique design that has a bit of meaning behind the colours used and where they are on the flag


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## jonocarroll (25/1/10)

Adamt said:


> CSI MEME:


Too busy to 'shop it together...

- Have you heard that Toys R Us need extra security for the long line of people waiting to buy the latest Australian-flag-bikini clad Mattel doll?



- How Un-Australian, hundreds of people waiting in line to get an American children's playtoy.



- Actually, it's very traditional. I guess you could call it the great Aussie-Barbie-queue.



- YYYEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!




< shame >


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## zebba (25/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Personally, i like the Aboriginal flag.....forget whatever attitudes it brings, as a flag it is a great, simple unique design that has a bit of meaning behind the colours used and where they are on the flag


Whilst I agree on it being a good flag, I'm pretty sure the aboriginals wouldn't be too happy with us taking it and using it as our own, and I think they'd have a fair point. I'm a big fan of the aboriginal-flag-in-place-of-the-union-jack option, but doing that takes away their individual culture - it's no longer _their _flag, it's ours, and whilst I'm all about integration and harmony, etc, people still need their own identities... I don't think I'm making sense. It makes sense in my head. 

On the republic, in an e-discussion once I had someone say they wanted to punch me in the face when I asked how not wanting a king/queen meant I was disrespecting _our _soldiers. Still not sure how he thought it was, pledge or no...


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## petesbrew (25/1/10)

I reckon the Mad Max movie poster would make a great flag.

However you'd get all those Mel Gibson haters up in arms re: he's either a seppo or NZer... can't remember which at the moment.
Not to mention the holden lovers chucking a stink.


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## warra48 (25/1/10)

Keep the flag as it is, but just remove the Union Jack. No need to add anything else really. Keep it simple.

Nobody fought or died for "the flag" which, after all, is only a symbol and a piece of cloth.
Our solders fought for our country, so changing the flag will make no difference to that.

If you want to retain the Union Jack on the flag as a piece of our history, how about arranging tiny minutures of the flags of all the countries from which we've sourced settlers or migrants. They could be like the stars on the US flag, or arranged in a circle around the Southern Cross! That way everyone should be happy.


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## Fatgodzilla (25/1/10)

I'm all for an new flag. Haven't got one to promote, but rid ourselves of that english corner. The Australian ensign was a great design for Australia of 1901, when the majority did think of themselves as British subjects. It's now 2010 - no one thinks we are British - we are Austruckinphalian and proud. Time to make our representation (identification) to the world Australian. Has worked well for Canada and South Africa, time for us. And none of this "they fought and died under that flag" argument - emotive tripe. That they fought and died is not the issue, that they did so for the country is worthy of our memory. The flag issue should never be linked to their sacrifice, it just cheapens them and shows the ignorance and stupidity of the proponent.


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## manticle (25/1/10)

Zebba said:


> Whilst I agree on it being a good flag, I'm pretty sure the aboriginals wouldn't be too happy with us taking it and using it as our own, and I think they'd have a fair point. I'm a big fan of the aboriginal-flag-in-place-of-the-union-jack option, but doing that takes away their individual culture - it's no longer _their _flag, it's ours, and whilst I'm all about integration and harmony, etc, people still need their own identities... I don't think I'm making sense. It makes sense in my head.



I think it should be incorporated/included in any new flag that develops though. I'd be happy with the southern cross with aboriginal flag colours. Any borrowing/reclaiming of cultural identity shood be carried out with proper consultation obviously but that's a lot of people who've been ignored for a long time.


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## pokolbinguy (25/1/10)

Bulk buy anyone???


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## bowie in space (25/1/10)

pokolbinguy said:


> View attachment 35146
> 
> 
> Bulk buy anyone???





that's more like it!! :beerbang:


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## Airgead (25/1/10)

The thing that gets me is that the current union jack only dates back to 1801. Before that the jack didn't have the diagonal red cross. The original union jack was proclaimed in 1606 and went through at least 3 revisions to get the design we have now. Before 1606 it was the St George's cross of England (from 1188 anyway).

You don't hear the poms complaining because someone changed the flag that people fought and died under at Agincourt and Crecy do you?

The first war where people actually fought under the current Australian flag was WW2. Before that our army was known as the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) and fought well and truly for King and Empire under the British flag. Did we somehow sully their memories when we fought under the Australian flag in WW2?

The whole fought and died argument is bollocks.

Bring on the republic and change the flag.


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## Count Vorlauf (25/1/10)

Perhaps Australia could just replace the Union Jack with the flag of whatever country is really calling the shots.

From 1788-1945 the Union Jack
From 1945-2008 the US flag
From 2008- ? the flag of the PRC..


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## Kleiny (25/1/10)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Personally, i like the Aboriginal flag.....forget whatever attitudes it brings, as a flag it is a great, simple unique design that has a bit of meaning behind the colours used and where they are on the flag



Zeb has a point the Aboriginals dont view us as Australian.

Im all for Aboriginbal rights but a flag that mixes the Aboriginal flag and the southern cross this is a great compromise for a country of its own.

we have to take the fact that this is a multycultural continent with aboriginal, english, irish, german, japanese, chinese, sudanese whatever else enese and every other race, culture. I believe in us being accept-ant of whoever however and im the last you would call racist, i just strongly BELIEVE IN AUSTRALIA BEING AUSTRALIA.

that should be defended at all cost. The Aus way of life.

the way we live in this world is UNIQUE no other country has our rights our freedom our passion and our absolute dont give a crap attitude.

I need this to continue for my kids and generations beyond, if everybody has this point, AUS will remain the greatest place on earth


Kleiny

P.S. i paint my face green and gold and give this speech in the most passionate way i can leading AHB into battle.


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## manticle (25/1/10)

Howabout a mauve flag?

Just mauve.


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## Kleiny (25/1/10)

manticle said:


> Howabout a mauve flag?
> 
> Just mauve.



Jeez man i thought you where a good bloke

m%$#e doesnt enter a blokes vocabulary


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## manticle (25/1/10)

Avocado?

Salmon then.

Oh oh oh ---What about beige with some ermine trimming?

We need an interior decorator. I'll report back when I've had a word to Jean-Paul. He knows everything.


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## Kleiny (25/1/10)

manticle said:


> Avocado?
> 
> Salmon then.
> 
> ...



something you put in a sandwich

A fish for catching

The suit is Richie Beneu

ermine i dont know what the looks the f%$k like

Jean Paul was a pope but im not that religous

Thanks Manticle

Kleiny :lol:


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## yardy (25/1/10)

just fcuk the union jack off and replace it with the coat of arms, _never a backward step mate_











i'll keep the avatar until it changes though...


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## manticle (25/1/10)

@Kleiny: I guess for me it comes down to a bit of what you said. Australia (when it's at its best anyway) is a place for people and no-one should give a tin shit where those people come from (except out of interest). We do have our fair share of nationalist bigoted arseholes but I like the diversity. My background is completely unknown (adopted with suggestions of irish, Scottish and Aboriginal but nothing definite) and my partner has an Egyptian/Italian Grandmother, English Grandfather, Sicilian father and Australian mother (some links somewhere to Russia as well). To me a flag is a symbol and no more and not even a symbol I probably care very much about in the scheme of things. People learning to deal with others' similarities and differences matters more to me. To be honest, the southern cross has become as much a symbol of white nationalist 'pride' (read ignorant thuggery) as anything else these days.

That said I've had a new idea.

Maybe a big up yours fingers on aboriginal coloured background? Chinese characters spelling '**** the man' on the left, a big green alcoholic trim (as in contains actual bushmills and stout) over the whole thing for the irish and some tomato and oregano plants intertwined for the Italians and greeks just under the fingers to symbolise unity.


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## Josh (25/1/10)

Green and Gold diagonal stripes.

Symbolises the national colours of the Cootamundra Wattle. 



















And also Bart Cummings silks. He is the king of the only sporting event that stops the entire nation.


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## Adamt (25/1/10)

CANARY YELLOW?! That's Australian gold my friend, and don't you f***ing forget it.





Canary yellow indeed.


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## andytork (25/1/10)

It could be worse


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## MarkMc (26/1/10)

Just remove the "Jock" part for now. Worry about the rest of us pommy's another time.


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## browndog (26/1/10)

Everyone saying the fact that soldiers, airmen and sailors fought under the flag argument is crap are out of line. If any of you are ex-military, you would not be saying that. Of course they fought for the country not the flag, but for them the flag has much more meaning that of a civilian. That flag represents what they were out there risking their lives for, their identity, and for people who want it changed just because they are offended by the historical reference to Britain is wrong. I served in the Middle East some years back and was Flag Attendant at our ANZAC Ceremony, it was one of the proudest moments of my military career out in the desert in the middle of nowhere, hoisting and lowering the flag at the appropriate moments. When I look at the flag, I don't see references to our English background, I see the Australian flag, that's all. No doubt it will be changed one day, but you won't see the push coming from those that defend this country.

cheers

Browndog

edit spellin


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/1/10)




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## OzMick (26/1/10)

Best reason I have heard for changing the flag? All the bogans who have hijacked it and had it tatooed on their bodies will need to have it removed. Disgraceful some of the rubbish you see people doing while wearing the flag as a cape, as though whatever they do while wearing it makes them patriotic.


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## browndog (26/1/10)

OzMick said:


> Best reason I have heard for changing the flag? All the bogans who have hijacked it and had it tatooed on their bodies will need to have it removed. Disgraceful some of the rubbish you see people doing while wearing the flag as a cape, as though whatever they do while wearing it makes them patriotic.




Have to agree with you there Mick.

-BD


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## bum (26/1/10)

Yeah, I've seen quite a bit done under the flag that shames me today.


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/1/10)

Not real keen on Australian flag thongs..... :angry:


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## gregs (26/1/10)

BribieG said:


> One thing that annoys me about the Australian Flag debate that springs up from time to time is the "Oh the soldiers and servicemen both men and women who died defending the flag and we are going to be grinding their memory into the dust if we change the flag... wail wail wail"
> 
> They are IMHO playing "now I've got you you sons of Child molester bitches". However to take an objective view, several Commonwealth countries have adopted new national flags and in the case of Canada I could be wrong but more Canadians have given their lives for the empire than Aussies and New Zealanders put together but they gladly embraced their Maple Leaf flag back back in the 60s, 70s ????
> 
> Canadian members here, can you remember, or know of, what debates surrounded the choice of the maple leaf flag at that time? An 'inside' view on this from other colonial cousins would be illuminating.



So you come to my county for whatever reason and then jump on the band wagon to change the Australian flag. Well - (BRIBIEG) why put forward a post that suggests that you want the Australian flag that my Grandfather and Farther in-law have both died under to make this place a better place for YOU MISTER BRIBIEG to live in. I think you are a self centred person that would do well keeping your un savoury comments to yourself. 

If for any reason you would like the Australian flag changed then put forward a reasonable suggestion and stop provoking useless argument.


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## bum (26/1/10)

gregs said:


> So you come to my county for whatever reason and then jump on the band wagon to change the Australian flag. Well - (BRIBIEG) why put forward a post that suggests that you want the Australian flag that my Grandfather and Farther in-law have both died under to make this place a better place for YOU MISTER BRIBIEG to live in. I think you are a self centred person that would do well keeping your un savoury comments to yourself.
> 
> If for any reason you would like the Australian flag changed then put forward a reasonable suggestion and stop provoking useless argument.



I agree!!!!! To me that flag represents everything I love about this country - especially free speech!!! IF you don't like the flag - SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!


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## manticle (26/1/10)

gregs said:


> So you come to my county for whatever reason and then jump on the band wagon to change the Australian flag. Well - (BRIBIEG) why put forward a post that suggests that you want the Australian flag that my Grandfather and Farther in-law have both died under to make this place a better place for YOU MISTER BRIBIEG to live in. I think you are a self centred person that would do well keeping your un savoury comments to yourself.
> 
> If for any reason you would like the Australian flag changed then put forward a reasonable suggestion and stop provoking useless argument.



Agree or disagree but don't play the 'immigrants should like it or lump it card'.

Emotive issue for some maybe but it's the opinion of one Australian citizen over another, no matter what their origin.

By the way I was born here as were my parents etc, etc and many of my relatives died in wars too. It doesn't make you special or right by default or more entitled to an opinion
than someone else. Half the reason this country is great (and half the reason our relatives fought and died) is because it's a place, (when at its best) that someone can express a political opinion without fear of prosectution, persecution or censure.


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## gregs (26/1/10)

manticle said:


> Agree or disagree but don't play the 'immigrants should like it or lump it card'.
> 
> Emotive issue for some maybe but it's the opinion of one Australian citizen over another, no matter what their origin.
> 
> ...



I didnt say I am entitled or have more right than anybody else, but I am more passionate about the flag I was born under than others, and as I said if you want to change the Australian flag for whatever reason then put forward some reasonable reasons why we should. Dont make the argument that immigrants should have their say without putting forward there reasons.


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## peas_and_corn (26/1/10)

One thing I find interesting about the 'flag Australians died under' is that until after ww2 there were two Australian flags- same sort of design, but different colour schemes. It wasn't until after the war they decided on the blue scheme.

Flags represent the state, not the nation. It's an important difference to make. That people have romanticised it makes no difference to this.


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## bum (26/1/10)

gregs said:


> I didn't say I am entitled or have more right than anybody else...[snip]...Don't make the argument that immigrants should have their say without putting forward there reasons.


 :huh: 



peas_and_corn said:


> That people have romanticised it makes no difference to this.


I agree with the point made but it isn't really the case. It should make no difference but it does as this is an emotive issue. If you were to rationalise the issue completely we'd realise it is just a bit of cloth and it is our actions, as a nation, that mean something. That all requires a bit too much work, sadly.


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## manticle (26/1/10)

gregs said:


> I didn't say I am entitled or have more right than anybody else, but I am more passionate about the flag I was born under than others, and as I said if you want to change the Australian flag for whatever reason then put forward some reasonable reasons why we should. Don't make the argument that immigrants should have their say without putting forward there reasons.



It goes both ways though. Everyone has the right to an opinion - that opinion is only likely to hold any weight if it's backed up with something substantial.

Your argument relied on the idea that someone who was born elsewhere has less right to say something than someone who doesn't. It didn't involve a whole lot of reason or counter points.

If you disagree with bribieG then fair enough but you yourself should offer more for your reasoning than attacking his origin.


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/1/10)

I vote mauve with salmon trim


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## gregs (26/1/10)

manticle said:


> It goes both ways though. Everyone has the right to an opinion - that opinion is only likely to hold any weight if it's backed up with something substantial.
> 
> Your argument relied on the idea that someone who was born elsewhere has less right to say something than someone who doesn't. It didn't involve a whole lot of reason or counter points.
> 
> If you disagree with bribieG then fair enough but you yourself should offer more for your reasoning than attacking his origin.




The flag is what it is if you wish to change it then put forward you reason or shut up.


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## bum (26/1/10)

I wanna change it to piss gregs off.


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## Steve (26/1/10)

warra48 said:


> Nobody fought or died for "the flag" which, after all, is only a symbol and a piece of cloth.
> Our solders fought for our country, so changing the flag will make no difference to that.



Ive read on many occasions that they did want want to volunteer to die for their flag, yes it was just a symbol, it was THEIR symbol, in their eyes it wasnt just a piece of cloth, it was what they've being brought up to believe as THEIR national id and no fucker was going to take it off em, even if it cost them their life. I would like you to go and find (if possible) a WWI vet (and maybe a WWII vet) and tell them what you just said. Ive read many excerpts from WWI saying the total opposite to what you just said warra. I agree that they fought for our country (who the **** wouldnt fight for this place).
Cheers
Steve


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## manticle (26/1/10)

gregs said:


> The flag is what it is if you wish to change it then put forward you reason or shut up.



Completely different argument as I was referring to your argument against bribieG not touting an argument of my own.

However since you ask: Firstly the flag to me is a symbol and I believe symbols should be only ever seen for what they are. Nobody should ever die, be beaten up, tortured, wounded or maimed purely for a symbol. Symbols are important but they are not as important as the things they represent. If they become more important than what they represent, they lose meaning for me.

Essentially that means if the flag changes I could be supportive depending on the new flag. If it stays the same I can also live.

The union jack means very little to me - if anything it symbolises a colonial invasion that happened many years ago (long enough that I can get on with my life, recently enough that I can see the effects on some people). Australia is essentially an autonomous country (supposedly) and the government and monarchy of the UK have very little to do with the running of it. Argument 1 for removing the Union Jack: a nation full of convicts standing up for their liberation from repression.

The Southern Cross to me is a great symbol. Unfortunately it's been misappropriated by nationalist thugs and yobbos who have as much to do with being Australian as an oak tree. There's some argument for changing it to reflect Australia as a diverse society rather than a closed one. 

The current flag completely ignores the fact that this land was inhabited by people who are now part of the oldest living cultures on the face of the planet. There is a reasonable argument for the inclusion of said cultures on a national flag.

The current flag also ignores the fact that all other people who came to this country from the late eighteenth century onwards were immigrants and as such immigrants have formed a basic part of our culture. It hails the UK and a stellar formation as representing all Australians and their history.

As I said - the symbol of a flag is much less important to me than the attitudes and behaviours of those who live under its banner but if it were to change they would be the bits that I feel should be considered. Those are my arguments for changing it.

What are yours for keeping it?


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## gregs (26/1/10)

manticle said:


> Completely different argument as I was referring to your argument against bribieG not touting an argument of my own.
> 
> However since you ask: Firstly the flag to me is a symbol and I believe symbols should be only ever seen for what they are. Nobody should ever die, be beaten up, tortured, wounded or maimed purely for a symbol. Symbols are important but they are not as important as the things they represent. If they become more important than what they represent, they lose meaning for me.
> 
> ...




A person wanting to change the flag doesnt piss me off. A person who wishes to change the flag without putting forward a reason does. You still havent given your reason, you started to in post 57 but it never went anywhere. 

I will ask again if you or any one else supports a change in the flag then put forward your reason.


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## bum (26/1/10)

Is this the referendum?


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## manticle (26/1/10)

I'm confused. The above are all my reasons why I would support a change - that the current national flag doesn't represent what I think it should and that it should be inclusive of aboriginal Australia, immigrant australia, diversity, freedom and respect rather than representative of a master/slave relationship.


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## Kai (26/1/10)

BribieG said:


> One thing that annoys me about the Australian Flag debate that springs up from time to time is the "Oh the soldiers and servicemen both men and women who died defending the flag and we are going to be grinding their memory into the dust if we change the flag... wail wail wail"
> 
> They are IMHO playing "now I've got you you sons of Child molester bitches". However to take an objective view, several Commonwealth countries have adopted new national flags and in the case of Canada I could be wrong but more Canadians have given their lives for the empire than Aussies and New Zealanders put together but they gladly embraced their Maple Leaf flag back back in the 60s, 70s ????
> 
> Canadian members here, can you remember, or know of, what debates surrounded the choice of the maple leaf flag at that time? An 'inside' view on this from other colonial cousins would be illuminating.



What bugs me is how the debate springs up every year, usually on a Jan 25 'slow news day'.


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## bum (26/1/10)

No, manticle. Post your _reasons_.


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## zebba (27/1/10)

People fight and die over all sorts of stupid sh1t. No reason to keep doing stupid sh1t...


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## newguy (27/1/10)

If you're interested (probably not), the flag debate appeared in the Canadian press today. Story here.


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## Adamt (27/1/10)

Oh yes.. another thing that slipped my mind yesterday...

If we were to change the flag and remove the union jack for the reason being complete independence from the British, or if we were to become a republic: Should that little state in the top right hand corner still be called QUEENsland?


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## Duffbowl (27/1/10)

Adamt said:


> Oh yes.. another thing that slipped my mind yesterday...
> 
> If we were to change the flag and remove the union jack for the reason being complete independence from the British, or if we were to become a republic: Should that little state in the top right hand corner still be called QUEENsland?


Can't see why not. A name is a name is a name.

The US still has Virginia and West Virginia (named for Queen Bess), North and South Carolina (named for King Charles I), Maryland (for Chuck I's missus), Georgia (King George II), New York (for Chuck II's brother, James, Duke of York), New Hampshire (for the county), New Jersey (for the island). New Zealand is the anglicised version of the Dutch name for it, Nieuw-Zeeland.


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## brettprevans (27/1/10)

browndog said:


> Everyone saying the fact that soldiers, airmen and sailors fought under the flag argument is crap are out of line. If any of you are ex-military, you would not be saying that. Of course they fought for the country not the flag, but for them the flag has much more meaning that of a civilian. That flag represents what they were out there risking their lives for, their identity, and for people who want it changed just because they are offended by the historical reference to Britain is wrong. I served in the Middle East some years back and was Flag Attendant at our ANZAC Ceremony, it was one of the proudest moments of my military career out in the desert in the middle of nowhere, hoisting and lowering the flag at the appropriate moments. When I look at the flag, I don't see references to our English background, I see the Australian flag, that's all. No doubt it will be changed one day, but you won't see the push coming from those that defend this country.
> 
> cheers
> 
> ...


+1000

so well summed up.


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## Barley Belly (27/1/10)

A coupla suggestions








OR


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## np1962 (27/1/10)

browndog said:


> Everyone saying the fact that soldiers, airmen and sailors fought under the flag argument is crap are out of line. If any of you are ex-military, you would not be saying that. Of course they fought for the country not the flag, but for them the flag has much more meaning that of a civilian. That flag represents what they were out there risking their lives for, their identity, and for people who want it changed just because they are offended by the historical reference to Britain is wrong. I served in the Middle East some years back and was Flag Attendant at our ANZAC Ceremony, it was one of the proudest moments of my military career out in the desert in the middle of nowhere, hoisting and lowering the flag at the appropriate moments. When I look at the flag, I don't see references to our English background, I see the Australian flag, that's all. No doubt it will be changed one day, but you won't see the push coming from those that defend this country.
> 
> cheers
> 
> ...


You are so right BD. If everyone had 10% of the respect for the flag that you, me and most other serving and ex members have I would be a happy man. Really pisses me off when I see a flag flying at night or being dragged along the ground by some yob.
This is not to say that if it were changed for valid reasons and by concensus that I would not have that same respect for a new flag.
I am unashamedly a Republican and Australia becoming a Republic is a lot higher on my agenga than a change to the flag. They are not necessarilly linked IMO.
Cheers
Nige


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## peas_and_corn (27/1/10)

Adamt said:


> Oh yes.. another thing that slipped my mind yesterday...
> 
> If we were to change the flag and remove the union jack for the reason being complete independence from the British, or if we were to become a republic: Should that little state in the top right hand corner still be called QUEENsland?



Well, that's just silly. Why not go on and rename Adelaide because it's named after an actual queen? These things are in concrete by now.


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## Murcluf (27/1/10)

How about this as the new flag as a nation our politians are forever trying to tie us to one countries or anothers apron strings ie. UK, US, China etc etc etc happy to sell us off to the lowest bidder. :angry: 




It's a friggin embarassment to all those who have shed blood sweat and tear to build our great nation, change the flag, the anthem or become a republic are ideas constantly brought up by useless lazy mongrels who have no respect for the heritage of this country. Tough up Princess this is Australia and if you have an issue with this country's history or identity you can always leave..... I'm quite happy to close the door behind you....


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## bum (27/1/10)

The apprentice has learned his lessons well.


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## Adamt (27/1/10)

peas_and_corn said:


> Well, that's just silly. Why not go on and rename Adelaide because it's named after an actual queen? These things are in concrete by now.



It was partly tongue-in-cheek, but Adelaide, Victoria, etc. are named after actual people that existed in positions of power when the places weres founded. Queensland doesn't refer to a monarch in particular, but refers specifically to the monarchial (is that a word?) position, a position which is a kind of constant reminder of our British heritage, just like the Union Jack on the flag.


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## bum (27/1/10)

Under your logic I presume you'd equally be calling for a change to Kingsland once Liz abdicates?


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## Adamt (27/1/10)

Yep... but not the Kingswood!


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## zebba (28/1/10)

Murcluf said:


> It's a friggin embarassment to all those who have shed blood sweat and tear to build our great nation, change the flag, the anthem or become a republic are ideas constantly brought up by useless lazy mongrels who have no respect for the heritage of this country. Tough up Princess this is Australia and if you have an issue with this country's history or identity you can always leave..... I'm quite happy to close the door behind you....


I assume then that when (if) the anthem or flag change that you'll leave? I won't close the door behind you though. Our great nation is built on welcoming different people and freedom of opinion. That people cite the dead to push their own barrow is the embarassment.


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## Murcluf (28/1/10)

Zebba said:


> I assume then that when (if) the anthem or flag change that you'll leave? I won't close the door behind you though. Our great nation is built on welcoming different people and freedom of opinion. That people cite the dead to push their own barrow is the embarassment.


While you are busy assuming away there I hope you don't think that it it only ok for those of british descent to be supportive of this country's heritage and yes the fact that this country welcome people of all nations does make it great. When my Grand father (who is still alive) came out to Australia from Algeria in the 1950's with 20 pound, the clothes on his back and little knowledge of the english language, travelling the country working on farms and fruit blocks trying to make his mark in this land. He always told us that you should be proud and support the nation that had supported you as it is those who have gone before you, leave you with what you have today. So I'm not embarssed by what anyone has done here.


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## Duffbowl (28/1/10)

Murcluf said:


> It's a friggin embarassment to all those who have shed blood sweat and tear to build our great nation, change the flag, the anthem or become a republic are ideas constantly brought up by useless lazy mongrels who have no respect for the heritage of this country. Tough up Princess this is Australia and if you have an issue with this country's history or identity you can always leave..... I'm quite happy to close the door behind you....


Using that notion, federation should never have occurred, as it changed the identity of the colonies. South Australia has had four flags since it was declared a colony in 1836. The Union Flag until 1870, then three variations of the British Blue Ensign with the symbol of the colony/state.


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## zebba (28/1/10)

Murcluf,

My grandfather has almost the exact same story, just sub "The Netherlands" for "Algeria". I'm not sure what your reply to me has to do with what I said... 

Whenever this flag or republic issue comes up, without fail some nationalist will jump up and say "if you don't like it fk off". Of course, this response is about as un-Australian as they come - as I stated, Australia is built on differences amongst people, and it's what makes us great. That some people think people with different opinions should just leave, and that you (and plenty of others) are more then happy to close the door behind them is an embarassment. Personally, I'm more then happy to share this country with people with different opinions to mine.


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## drsmurto (28/1/10)

newguy said:


> If you're interested (probably not), the flag debate appeared in the Canadian press today. Story here.



I like the flag in that article.


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## peas_and_corn (28/1/10)

Enough with the ******* Qantas kangaroo! It makes everything look like a souvenir, not a national flag.


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## drsmurto (28/1/10)

peas_and_corn said:


> Enough with the ******* Qantas kangaroo! It makes everything look like a souvenir, not a national flag.



The flag couldn't contain the 'qantas' kangaroo due to copyright but something like this i like.


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## peas_and_corn (28/1/10)

While I'm sure it won't look identical, the general silhouette of a kangaroo in mid-jump that's used everywhere always reminds me of Qantas. Damn them and their effective advertising...


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## browndog (28/1/10)

Why would you want a animal on the flag that we slaughter by the tens of thousands each year, how embarassing that would be.

-Browndog


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## Barley Belly (28/1/10)

How bout this then??


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## Murcluf (28/1/10)

Zebba said:


> Murcluf,
> 
> My grandfather has almost the exact same story, just sub "The Netherlands" for "Algeria". I'm not sure what your reply to me has to do with what I said...
> 
> Whenever this flag or republic issue comes up, without fail some nationalist will jump up and say "if you don't like it fk off". Of course, this response is about as un-Australian as they come - as I stated, Australia is built on differences amongst people, and it's what makes us great. That some people think people with different opinions should just leave, and that you (and plenty of others) are more then happy to close the door behind them is an embarassment. Personally, I'm more then happy to share this country with people with different opinions to mine.


Agreed a difference of opinions is a good thing and Austraila is a welcoming nation and the fact that it is a multicultural society. What is missed and most probably because people do jump to the wrong conclusion when some one says "if you don't like it leave", is that....that is exactly what those who immigrated did with the country they came from they left and Australia is better for it. 

Even with differences of opinion we need to work together to continue making Australia the great nation it is, I love Australia everything it stands for and everyone in it regardless of race creed or colour. 

Group Hug  enough said....


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## brettprevans (28/1/10)

bum said:


> Under your logic I presume you'd equally be calling for a change to Kingsland once Liz abdicates?


liz wont abdicate. shell die or retire. charles should abdicate and let prince whatsit be king. more people would follow him than charles. if nothing else he has better taste in women and takes military choppers for joyrides to see his girlfriend. thats the kind of king you want. kind of the like that movie king ralf with John Goodman.


edit: oh and again. i vote for international australia day.


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## drsmurto (28/1/10)

browndog said:


> Why would you want a animal on the flag that we slaughter by the tens of thousands each year, how embarassing that would be.
> 
> -Browndog



It's on the coat of arms so what's the difference?


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## brettprevans (28/1/10)

i like that we eat the animals featured on our coat of arms. only country in thw world to do so. makes us special


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## Murcluf (28/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> It's on the coat of arms so what's the difference?


Got to love a well cooked marinated Kangaroo fillet, was in Mildura's working mans club on the weekend they had Emu and Croc steaks on the menu. Couple years ago I was up in Quorn and at one of the pub had Camel steaks on the menu.

We're not shy....


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## browndog (28/1/10)

DrSmurto said:


> It's on the coat of arms so what's the difference?



I tend to think the Japs would give us heaps in retaliation for our stance on them whaling, not to mention the conservationists. If they did decide to change it, I think the outline of Ayer's Rock in the center with a blue sky and red foreground would be cool, after all, it is a symbol of the heart of our nation.


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## Fatgodzilla (28/1/10)

browndog said:


> I tend to think the Japs would give us heaps in retaliation for our stance on them whaling, not to mention the conservationists. If they did decide to change it, I think the outline of Ayer's Rock in the center with a blue sky and red foreground would be cool, after all, it is a symbol of the heart of our nation.




Uluru, please BD, Uluru.


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## manticle (28/1/10)

browndog said:


> I tend to think the Japs would give us heaps in retaliation for our stance on them whaling, not to mention the conservationists. If they did decide to change it, I think the outline of Ayer's Rock in the center with a blue sky and red foreground would be cool, after all, it is a symbol of the heart of our nation.



Most conservationists would (or should) understand the great damage that non indigenous animals can do to our environment that indigenous ones don't. Kangaroo vs cattle? Kangaroo wins hands down.

Free range too. Who could complain about that?


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## brettprevans (28/1/10)

roos aren't endangered either. or being killed under the guise of science. but we digress



browndog said:


> II think the outline of Ayer's Rock in the center with a blue sky and red foreground would be cool, after all, it is a symbol of the heart of our nation.


hmm not sure about that. sure Uluru is a symbol. and in the middle-ish of australia, but not sure it being the heart of australia.


something to do with mateship. yup. making it easy arent i! picking something that means differant things to everyone. 


NFI what we could have. maybe just a big arse bbq qith lots of meat and booze. lamb chops, roo, emu, booze, beaches all squished onto a flag. oh and the southern cross. dont mind the old stars


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## Josh (28/1/10)

AusFlag is a pretty good website for this debate.

I personally like this one... 




I like the idea of ochre instead of red. Red with blue and white would still tie us too closely to the UK. But ochre is the colour of a good proportion of the land. I like the white on the fringes which to me represent the coastline around our island. And the blue obviously is the oceans and seas surrounding us.

I think the southern cross is a fine enough symbol to represent Australia. Even though it isn't unique to us, it works well.

Alternatively you could something like the following design, but with the blue, white and ochre colours. Not keen on green and gold.




Either way, I'm pretty keen on losing the Union Jack. I'm also a Republican, but could live with remaining in the Commonwealth instead of a presidential campaign like the USA. I was actually a fan of the model proposed in 1999.


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## zebba (28/1/10)

Murcluf said:


> Group Hug  enough said....


Group hug? Fk that - beer time


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## gregs (28/1/10)

manticle said:


> Most conservationists would (or should) understand the great damage that non indigenous animals can do to our environment that indigenous ones don't. Kangaroo vs cattle? Kangaroo wins hands down.
> 
> Free range too. Who could complain about that?




Youd have to be a frign school teacher <_<


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## manticle (28/1/10)

gregs said:


> You'd have to be a frig'n school teacher <_<



Not even vaguely sure why you think so but no.

What does my occupation have to do with my opinion on a flag or my understanding of what I eat?


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## marksfish (28/1/10)

the old soldiers who fought in the boer war went to south africa under their state flags and in state units, and the ww1 diggers fought under the red ensign as the aussie flag'

so are these old soldiers rolling in their graves already!


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## browndog (29/1/10)

marksfish said:


> the old soldiers who fought in the boer war went to south africa under their state flags and in state units, and the ww1 diggers fought under the red ensign as the aussie flag'
> 
> so are these old soldiers rolling in their graves already!




See, the thing is they are dead, gone, no longer here. You could piss on their graves and it won't matter a whit, you never lived in their times so you just don't know what went on. Your suggestion has no relevance to the people living today that have a stake in changing the flag.


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## bum (29/1/10)

Except that he is addressing the notion that those who gave their lives for this flag is largely a load of shit. He has accounted for a large portion of those who laid down their lives for this country and not one of them fought under this flag. 

Please don't assume (you probably will anyway) that I wish to devalue these brave mens' sacrifice.


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## browndog (29/1/10)

bum said:


> Except that he is addressing the notion that those who gave their lives for this flag is largely a load of shit. He has accounted for a large portion of those who laid down their lives for this country and not one of them fought under this flag.
> 
> Please don't assume (you probably will anyway) that I wish to devalue these brave mens' sacrifice.




Correct, and as I tried to point out, it is a moot point as they are not here to give their thoughts on the matter. Maybe they could not have cared less, maybe they were offended, we will never know.


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## brettprevans (29/1/10)

as long as we are australia and stand for the things we currently stand for and are a great country, i would fight under any flag we have. Cant say I ever thought too much about what was on the flag when i was in the army, other than it was the australian flag and thus it represented Australia.

on a related topic, i wonder what all the poor athletes and other aussies who have tatts of the current aussie flag would do if we changed flags! bit hard to change that tatt


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## marksfish (29/1/10)

you are correct bum i only raised the issue of the flags that aussies fought under to counter the belief that the australian flag had not changed since 1788. as to what the diggers were fighting for a quick look through any of the history books will answer the question, they joined up for king and country and for the adventure of overseas travel and kept on fighting so they wouldnt let their mates down.


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## pwaryuex (30/1/10)

The flag definitely will come under scrutiny when Australia becomes a republic; most likely when the current queen dies, if not before.

As for if it should be changed, it seems peculiar to have the Union Flag in the canton of the Australian flag if Australia is no longer ruled by the British monarchy. 

As for what it should be changed to, it'll obviously have something with the Southern Cross on it because that's what most Australians want on the flag. Ausflag's designs are okay but a bit boring and will be dated. I personally think that Australians who really, passionately care about the flag have misplaced ideals in the nation state and some ridiculous views that the flag is somehow representative of something better and pure. Ultimately, nationalism presents itself (at least to me) as the worst enemy of humanity leading into the 21st century. The quicker that nationalism dies out, the quicker that people will actually be able to respect each other.


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## FNQ Bunyip (31/1/10)

browndog said:


> Why would you want a animal on the flag that we slaughter by the tens of thousands each year, how embarassing that would be.
> 
> -Browndog


Not at all Tony ,, would make me proud,, I used to shoot roos for am income , they are great eatting , do no harm to the fragile rangelands and marginal farmming lands ,, need no care ... 



citymorgue2 said:


> i like that we eat the animals featured on our coat of arms. only country in thw world to do so. makes us special


I think you will find that Swaziland ppl eat elephant,, 
Solomons islanders eat Shark and Crocodile
Zimbabweens most definatly eat Kudu
Botswanans eat Zebra
Eritrea would eat bloody anything , so camals not out of the question



Fatgodzilla said:


> Uluru, please BD, Uluru.



BS , F^%# the political corectness ,,, It Ayers Rock

Cheers


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## peas_and_corn (31/1/10)

Its name was changed, it's called Uluru. This isn't an alternative name, it only has one.


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## pwaryuex (1/2/10)

peas_and_corn said:


> Its name was changed, it's called Uluru.


*Its name was changed back. ;-)


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## peas_and_corn (1/2/10)

Indeed, after a brief (relatively speaking) period as Ayres Rock.


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## bum (1/2/10)

lol


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## newguy (2/2/10)

peas_and_corn said:


> Its name was changed, it's called Uluru. This isn't an alternative name, it only has one.



I admire native place names like this as they sound very nice - elegant? Compare Uluru with some places around here. Like this. Uluru sounds a lot nicer.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/2/10)

I say leave the flag a it is - not because I am atached to it, but simply because as far a I am concerned it has virtually no value at all. It is a label and thats it. It could be black letters on a white background and just say Australia... and it would mean exactly the same things it means now and meant in the past.

I'm over nationalism anyway - Australia is a great country that has built a pretty damn good society based around a pretty damn good set of social values (well recently anyway) and it mostly meshes with my personal philosophy on how a country should treat its people and interact with other nations. Cool, I love it and support it for that.

But what if it didn't?? What if the racists have a win at the next election and get a senator in... and its the first step. The lebbo bashers get one in at the next election too - and in a few elections time there are stars on upper arms, southern crosses sewed onto brown shirts & people being bundled into minivans never to be seen again because they don't think its right and were brave enough to say so. What then?? Don't think it could ever happen here... have a look at history and see just how fast a seemingly sane and civilized country can go stark raving nuts and start lining people up against the wall.

It'd still be Australia... but would it be worth your loyalty?

Its the 21st century people. Get post modern dammit! Love a place because its _worth actually loving_, not because you happen to have been born there or because its where you currently live. Leave the flag the hell alone, its a square yard of coloured cloth and nothing more - spend the time and effort on making sure that the country its hanging over stays great and maybe even gets a bit better.


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## peas_and_corn (2/2/10)

Where's the .gif of the people giving a round of applause when I need it?


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## jonocarroll (2/2/10)

peas_and_corn said:


> Where's the .gif of the people giving a round of applause when I need it?


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## Adamt (2/2/10)

Nope, that's not it.


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## chappo1970 (3/2/10)

I like our flag...


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## bum (4/2/10)

They should have put it over her face.


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