# Hefe Weizen



## rude (2/12/09)

Doing a wheat for xmas with a wyeast 3068, its my first attempt at a wheat AG

It was Hughman 666 western wheat recipe from the DB

The brew day went well 78% efficiency 14 IBU with Hallertauer 6.3%b , into the ( son of fermenter chiller ) a bit warm after no chilling the day before , 22c but soon came down to 18c ( after 12 hours of work checked when I got home )

Had 25 litres in a 30 litre fermenter & it went through the top for 2 days

Its been 5 days now Im not going to rack just rack for bulk primming as I bottle

The question is how long should I keep it in primary I was thinking 10 days as long as the gravity readings are good then 2 weeks in the bottle & it should be good for chrisie

What do other people do for their wheat beers , what are youre experiences cheers all


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## manticle (2/12/09)

My recent hefe just stayed in primary until it was ready to bottle (stable gravity readings etc). I rack to secondary and cold condition most of my brews but this was an exception. Number of weeks is irrelevant. Numbers on the hydrometer is what you are looking for.


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## rude (2/12/09)

So Mants how long did youres take in primary


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## manticle (2/12/09)

From memory a couple of weeks. She dropped lower than expected - I think around 1008 and I left her there to make sure she'd finished for a couple of days.


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## Flash_DG (2/12/09)

I left mine in Primary for 11 day but then I think I bottled a little early because it carbed up in a few days.
Funny thing is now I don't think it has enough carbination for a Hefeweizen from what I have been reading lately.
But it does taste very good and packs a wallop.


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## driveitlikeustoleit (2/12/09)

I'm drinking a german wheat beer atm. 

I don't rack. And left it on primary for a month.

Very bloody tasty! Bananas even :icon_drool2: 

mebbe :icon_offtopic:


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## rude (2/12/09)

not off topic at all mate youres would have been well & truly been done

After 5 days there is still quite a krausen on top I wonder does it completely clear at final gravity ?

I normally give my ales 2 weeks in the fermenters but a wheat is supposed to come out quicker & enjoyed young , fresh wheat is best 

Just wondering who have pushed theirs out quick


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## hughyg (2/12/09)

Brewing one at the moment myself. Was going to leave in primary for 15days then rack to keg and carb up over a week.


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## Flash_DG (3/12/09)

rude said:


> After 5 days there is still quite a krausen on top I wonder does it completely clear at final gravity ?


Yeah I still had krausen right upto bottling, was quite think too.


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

Im racking the Weizen after the third day in fermenter, keep it no longer there. Drinkable after one week only.

Weizenbier should be drunk fresh! :icon_chickcheers:

from grain to brain one week


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## NickB (3/12/09)

Zwickel, are you racking into secondary after 3 days or into the keg to condition? I only ask because my attempts so far at any type of wheat beer have been abysmal, and turned out way to phenolic, or with little to no flavour....

Cheers


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

NickB said:


> Zwickel, are you racking into secondary after 3 days or into the keg to condition? I only ask because my attempts so far at any type of wheat beer have been abysmal, and turned out way to phenolic, or with little to no flavour....
> 
> Cheers


I feel sorry for you, guess your issues are lying in the yeast management, not in the time you leave the wort in the fermenter.
Im racking into kegs. Depending on the temp it was fermenting, its just natural carbonating or sometimes I have to add a little bit CO2.
My schedule:
3 days fermenting, then racking
keep it for another 2 days at ambient temp, then put it in the cold

from 7. day on ready on tap :icon_chickcheers:


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## NickB (3/12/09)

Awesome, thanks for that, will give it a shot. From reading your replies to previous threads I would imagine that you're pitching a significantly large starter into your wheats like you do your lagers? If so, what sort of volumes are we talking about, both in your wort volumes and your starter volumes? Also, what yeast do you prefer for wheats? I know a lot of the guys over in Aus like 3068, but I've had nothing but a bad run (see my previous posts) with this yeast.....

Cheers mate!



EDIT: Also, what mash schedule do you prefer for weizens, and what fermentation temps are you using.... Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm bloody frustrated with my wheat beer results in the past, and would love to replicate something very tasty


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

NickB said:


> Awesome, thanks for that, will give it a shot. From reading your replies to previous threads I would imagine that you're pitching a significantly large starter into your wheats like you do your lagers? If so, what sort of volumes are we talking about, both in your wort volumes and your starter volumes? Also, what yeast do you prefer for wheats? I know a lot of the guys over in Aus like 3068, but I've had nothing but a bad run (see my previous posts) with this yeast.....
> 
> Cheers mate!
> 
> ...



Nick, Im sitting on work atm, will come back to you tonight when Im at home, will show you some pics.
see ya later mate :icon_cheers:


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## NickB (3/12/09)

Cheers mate, look forward to it.... Forget about the time zones  Just move to Aus already 

Cheers


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

NickB said:


> Cheers mate, look forward to it.... Forget about the time zones  Just move to Aus already


soon....mate soon...Ill be there again, cant wait for it.....

.....but the Australian Government doesnt like me to stay for good, so I have to feed the airlines with my money, buing tickets every year.

okay, back to Hefeweizen: 
I think, the mash schedule is not as important with Hefeweizens as it is with Pilseners.
If you do a single infusion mash as you used to do, that will be fine. Much more important ist the treatment of the yeast.
Of course, one can adjust a little bit the flavour by doing a ferulic acid rest or play with beta and alpha amylase and so on, but that is only a minor adjustment, that has no relevant influence.

So lets talk about Hefe (yeast):

First rule: cool down the wort as fast as you can, so no nasties can take place in it.
cool to ~20C, aerate the cooled wort prior pitching, so the yeasties will find a cosy surrounding full of fine food, they immediately will start to multiply themselfes. Take in account, that a vigorous fermentation can rise the temp of the wort for 4to 6 degree!!!!
That means the effective fermenting temp can be around 25C !!!

That way, the yeast will have done its main work within 48 hours already, give it another 24 hours to settle and start racking.
There will be still a little bit fermentable sugar in the wort, so the following two days at ambient temp will produce enough CO2 for natural carbonation.

Put it in the cold and serve it :icon_cheers: 


here an example of a brew:








that is an usual starter for a 60l batch size Hefeweizen (big bottle):







and these are starters for my Pilsener:










....and that is Zwickels Hefeweizen:






Id like to emphasize, the amount of yeast cells, plays a main role in that game.
I usually use around five times the amount of yeast cells for Pilseners than for Weizen.

Cheers :icon_chickcheers:


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

sorry, I had forgotten



NickB said:


> ...snip.... Also, what yeast do you prefer for wheats? I know a lot of the guys over in Aus like 3068, but I've had nothing but a bad run (see my previous posts) with this yeast.....



I dunno anything about the 3068, sorry. Since Ive got some yeast directly from a brewery nearby many years ago, I built up my own yeast bank.

Since around 5 years Im treasuring and renewing every year some yeast strains, maybe for the rest of my life.

The only recommendation I could give you is: try to get some Schneider Hefeweizen, try to reculture the yeast that is in it, or do the same with Maisels Weizen. Theire yeast in the bottles is excellent for reculturing and they provide a wonderful arome. If youll succeed once, keep that yeast on Agar for the future.

Youll never run out of yeast again.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## hughyg (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> sorry, I had forgotten
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think schneider use wyeast3638. Are you suggesting we ferment them at 25C. Mine is racing away but I have it set to 19C.


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

hughyg said:


> I think schneider use wyeast3638.


could be, I dunno 



> Are you suggesting we ferment them at 25C. Mine is racing away but I have it set to 19C.



as I said, the temp will rise during fermentation, how much is depending on the amount of yeast that is used.

Basically I would pitch at around 20C. The problem is, the higher the fermentation temp is, the more ester and other arome components youll get in your beer. Some of them are wanted, some of them not. Thats a matter of balance.
There are some yeast strains they better start at 22C, others would be better at around 19C.

Im not a gambler, personally I love to know what comes out when I start brewing, thats why you may call me a nerd, but I love to know everything about my yeasties, love to know how they behave at a certain temp and what comes out when Im drifting away.

In shorter words: If youre using yeast from the international companies, just follow theire recommendations.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> ....and that is Zwickels Hefeweizen:



I'm in love zwickel :wub: Interesting to note the Schneider yeast in the bottle is their true weizen yeast. I think i might have a go at culturing this one up soon. I need some Weizen quaffers for the summer months. Do you find any ester/phenol issues with reculturing the weizen yeasts? 

Ive heard reports of these traits lacking in the final product after building up from a slant. I dont know why this would be the case however. 



hughyg said:


> I think schneider use wyeast3638. Are you suggesting we ferment them at 25C. Mine is racing away but I have it set to 19C.



Its actually the weihenstephan yeast AFAIK.


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## donmateo (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> okay, back to Hefeweizen:
> I think, the mash schedule is not as important with Hefeweizens as it is with Pilseners.
> If you do a single infusion mash as you used to do, that will be fine. Much more important ist the treatment of the yeast.
> Of course, one can adjust a little bit the flavour by doing a ferulic acid rest or play with beta and alpha amylase and so on, but that is only a minor adjustment, that has no relevant influence.
> ...



They are some fine pics Zwickel - I'm curious as to how do you cover your fermenter? - being full to the brim with wort and not a lot of headspace for the krausen ?


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## Adamt (3/12/09)

Blow off tube, I would confidently guess!


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## Nick JD (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> The only recommendation I could give you is: try to get some Schneider Hefeweizen, try to reculture the yeast that is in it, or do the same with Maisels Weizen. Theire yeast in the bottles is excellent for reculturing and they provide a wonderful arome. If youll succeed once, keep that yeast on Agar for the future.



So Zwickel - they don't use a lager yeast in the bottle like other hefes? The stuff in the bottle is the fermentation strain?


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## geoffi (3/12/09)

Nick JD said:


> So Zwickel - they don't use a lager yeast in the bottle like other hefes? The stuff in the bottle is the fermentation strain?




I believe this to be true of both Schneider Weisse and Maisel's Weisse. Haven't tried to culture one, though.


One general comment on these beers. Yes, you can bottle and drink them very fresh and they taste great. However, I find the amount of yeast can be excessive. You want some yeast in this beer, rather than some beer in the yeast. Leaving it a few days after fermentation stops or crash chilling a day or two gives a nicer result IMHO.


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## warra48 (3/12/09)

My last hefeweizen was in primary for 8 days, fermented at 17.5C, with WY3068. It's in the recipe database.
I pitched a good sized starter, with the wort and starter both at 17.5C at pitching time.
I started drinking it one week post bottling.
Turned out brilliant, reminds me a lot of Erdinger I can get locally on tap.
Lovely mouthfeel, just enough spice, with subtle banana aroma, all in balance.

I enjoyed it so much, I put down another one last Monday, and I'm hoping for a similar result.


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## geoffi (3/12/09)

warra48 said:


> My last hefeweizen was in primary for 8 days, fermented at 17.5C, with WY3068. It's in the recipe database.
> I pitched a good sized starter, with the wort and starter both at 17.5C at pitching time.
> I started drinking it one week post bottling.
> Turned out brilliant, reminds me a lot of Erdinger I can get locally on tap.
> ...




Definitely agree with the temperature there (although I could only dream of being able to control temp to within 0.5 of a degree). Around 17 or 18 seems to hit the spot.


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## Nick JD (3/12/09)

Does anyone know a bottle store on the Gold Coast that sells Schneider or Maisel's Weisse? I can't remember seeing either at Dan Murphys.


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## therook (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> soon....mate soon...Ill be there again, cant wait for it.....
> 
> .....but the Australian Government doesnt like me to stay for good, so I have to feed the airlines with my money, buing tickets every year.
> 
> ...




That is some serious amounts of yeast there zwickel ( I assume there 5 litre demijons ), i dont think i have ever pitched that amount of yeast...

How many ml of just yeast would you say you are pitching for both your Pilsners and Wheats

Rook


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

Fourstar said:


> I'm in love zwickel :wub: Interesting to note the Schneider yeast in the bottle is their true weizen yeast. I think i might have a go at culturing this one up soon. I need some Weizen quaffers for the summer months. Do you find any ester/phenol issues with reculturing the weizen yeasts?
> 
> Ive heard reports of these traits lacking in the final product after building up from a slant. I dont know why this would be the case however.
> 
> Its actually the weihenstephan yeast AFAIK.



Reculturing Schneider and Maisels yeast from bottles is very popular over here. There are not so many brands that sells the original yeast in theire bottles, but Schneider and Maisels do so.
Of course, the quality of the yeast depends very much on some conditions like age, how the bottles get stored, did they stand in the sunlight for a while and so on.

Maybe it needs several attempts to get a satisfying result.



Don Mateo said:


> They are some fine pics Zwickel - I'm curious as to how do you cover your fermenter? - being full to the brim with wort and not a lot of headspace for the krausen ?



thats not the fermenter, I call it the buffer vessel. 10 litres of the wort get frozen for the next starters. To produce a sufficient amount of yeast from slants, I need at least 5litres of wort, for Pilseners even more. So I fill portions of one liter in bags and/or PET bottles and freeze it. 



Nick JD said:


> So Zwickel - they don't use a lager yeast in the bottle like other hefes? The stuff in the bottle is the fermentation strain?



yes, these two breweries are using the original hefe.



therook said:


> That is some serious amounts of yeast there zwickel ( I assume there 5 litre demijons ), i dont think i have ever pitched that amount of yeast...
> 
> How many ml of just yeast would you say you are pitching for both your Pilsners and Wheats
> 
> Rook



Id say for Hefeweizen its around 300ml just yeast and for Pilsener it will be around 1 to 1.5liter (pure) yeast

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## TidalPete (3/12/09)

therook said:


> That is some serious amounts of yeast there zwickel ( I assume there 5 litre demijons ), i dont think i have ever pitched that amount of yeast...
> 
> How many ml of just yeast would you say you are pitching for both your Pilsners and Wheats
> 
> Rook



Zwickel,

Appreciate your response to the above post.


> Id say for Hefeweizen its around 300ml just yeast and for Pilsener it will be around 1 to 1.5liter (pure) yeast



Need to know HITBH do you get that volume of yeast in a starter? I use a stir plate & my last effort with *3 litres *of 1.048 wort using 2042 Danish Lager got nowhere near the amount of yeasties your pics show & I'm pretty sure the homemade stir plate I use would not have the torque to be able to handle that amount of yeast anyway?
How much wort do you actually use in a Hefeweizen starter or any other starter to get that volume of yeast?
What's the secret mate?  :icon_cheers: 

TP


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## HoppingMad (3/12/09)

Love this style of beer but have a long way to go to master it. Only done three AG weizens but it's on the to-do again list. 

The biggest issue I have is how thin my AG hefeweizens come out.

Got handed a magnificent homebrewed Hefe the other day that did well at comp level and had great body and mouthfeel, but was a double decoction mash - something I'm nowhere near trying. Think on the next one I'm going to mash higher and add some munich and see how I go before climbing that mountain. I have heard about some weizen brewers adding some flaked oats to improve mouthfeel/head and am also considering my options on that. A lot of award winning wheats in the US I've seen appear to slip some oats into the formula.

Have been using Zwickels mash schedule and can recommend it. The Weyerman website also has some good pointers on mashing in this style. Adding a rest and stepping up the mash temp certainly has improved my wheatbeers from the first attempt (thanks Zwickel!). It takes more time, but I am seeing better results.

I also recommend very highly the Wyeast 3068. Great banana and clove when I have used it in the 20-22 degree range. I don't recommend the Fermentis WB-06 dry yeast, my results on this yeast on the one occasion I used it have been average and the flavour seems to degrade to phenolic much faster than the Wyeast product. Have a mate that used the Wyeast Bavarian 3056 which was quite pleasant and bigger on clove than banana. 

On the subject of Schneider Weisse, I believe there is a big article on that beer and a clone recipe in a recent issue of the US BYO magazine (I think October). Talks a little about how you can acheive the slight sour flavour the beer imparts. You might be able to find it on their website if you dig around.

Cheers,

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> Reculturing Schneider and Maisels yeast from bottles is very popular over here.
> 
> yes, these two breweries are using the original hefe.



Awesome, thanks mate. Finding these beers is the problem though. I just went down to my local bottle shop and guess what? Of the entire list of weizens and weisses that have non-viable conditioning yeasts ... they have lots! The viable hefes for culturing ... none. 

So I bought an Erdinger anyway. Not as good as Schfferhofer IMO.

I wonder what's the yeast in Schfferhofer?

What to the Deutsch think about all us Aussies brewing chick's bier!?


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## grod5 (3/12/09)

My first AG was last Saturday and was a Hefe recipe with 3068. Pitched on Sunday and it climbed out of the fermenter on Tuesday. I was planning on crashing this weekend and kegging early next week depending on FG of course. Zwickel's comments sound promising.

Smells like banana in the fridge at 19C. 

Have to thank MHB for the donation of the grains and craigm for his advice.

daniel


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

TidalPete said:


> ....Need to know HITBH do you get that volume of yeast in a starter? I use a stir plate & my last effort with *3 litres *of 1.048 wort using 2042 Danish Lager got nowhere near the amount of yeasties your pics show & I'm pretty sure the homemade stir plate I use would not have the torque to be able to handle that amount of yeast anyway?
> How much wort do you actually use in a Hefeweizen starter or any other starter to get that volume of yeast?
> What's the secret mate?



apologies for my pityful english, Ill try to describe as good as I can.

our target is, to multiply the number of yest cells as fast as possilble, thatfor we need oxygen and food.
Normally our wort is highly concentrated with sugar, too much sugar for an optimal yeast growth. That means we have to dilute the wort for a starter to achieve a faster yeast growth. Im diluting the wort (just using pure water from tap) to around 1030, just to reduce the Crabtree effect a little bit.
Crabtree effect means, too high sugar concentrations blocks the diaphragm of the yaest cells for oxygen consumption. 
Crabtree effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crabtree_effect

Put the starter on the magnetic stirrer, start intermittent aerating, leave it there for around 24 hours, then keep it over night in the fridge, next day decant the used wort and add fresh wort to it. Continue that procedure until you have the desired amount of yeast.

I hope, that was understandable  




Nick JD said:


> Awesome, thanks mate. Finding these beers is the problem though. I just went down to my local bottle shop and guess what? Of the entire list of weizens and weisses that have non-viable conditioning yeasts ... they have lots! The viable hefes for culturing ... none.
> 
> So I bought an Erdinger anyway. Not as good as Schfferhofer IMO.
> 
> ...




Once I posted a list of beers here on AHB, but cannot find it anymore, that could be good for reculturing yeasts, others not.
If I recall right, Erdinger is not a candidate for reculturing.

ahhhh....Ive found it:

*qualified beers * Geeignete (Hefe)Weizenbiere:
Schneider-Weisse (Kelheim),
Maisel Hefeweizen (Bayreuth),
Kuchlbauer Weisse (Abensberg),
Ritter St. Georgen-Brauerei (Nennslingen);
Gutmann Hefeweizen (Titting),
Pinkus-Hefeweizen (Pinkus Mller, Mnster),
Prinzregent-Luitpold-Weizen (Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg)
Appenzeller Hefeweizen (Schweiz).


*possibly qualified:* Tucher Hefeweizen (Nrnberg). 

*not qualified *Weizenbiere:
Erdinger, Schfferhofer, Oettinger, Franziskaner, Andechser (what a pity!), Pyraser



thats it, have fun :icon_cheers:


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## TidalPete (3/12/09)

Many thanks Zwickel. :icon_cheers: 

TP


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## Rob C (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> Once I posted a list of beers here on AHB, but cannot find it anymore, that could be good for reculturing yeasts, others not.
> If I recall right, Erdinger is not a candidate for reculturing.
> 
> ahhhh....Ive found it:
> ...



Zwickel do you know if the yeast in the Paulaner Hefe-weisbier is a weizen yeast? Have got a couple bottles of this in the fridge.

Cheers
Rob


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## Nick JD (3/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> *qualified beers * Geeignete (Hefe)Weizenbiere:
> Schneider-Weisse (Kelheim),
> Maisel Hefeweizen (Bayreuth),
> Kuchlbauer Weisse (Abensberg),
> ...



Thanks! But I don't think there's anywhere in my city (Gold Coast) that sells any of these beers  :angry:


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

Rob C said:


> Zwickel do you know if the yeast in the Paulaner Hefe-weisbier is a weizen yeast? Have got a couple bottles of this in the fridge.
> 
> Cheers
> Rob


Sorry Rob, Paulaner cannot be used.

:icon_cheers:


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## rude (3/12/09)

Jeez food for thought Im greatfull for the advice Zwickel 

Im single infusion batch sparging for ease as I havent been AG that long just trying to keep things simple

I used a wyeast smack pack & made a 1.4 litre starter with it, pitched half into a 50 50 pilsener wheat blend of grain & have saved the other half in the fridge for another go at a hefe wiezen I love Weihenstephaner
Hefe Weissbier

Pitched at 22c then bought it down to 18c & that is where it has sat for 6 days now

Jeez what to do now I was going to wait till it got down to a stable 1013 1010 there abouts, mashed in at 66c- 67c 15 litres, did a mash out 10 litres 78 15 litre sparge 78c 33 litres in the kettle for 25 litres in the fermenter

Should I rack now then chill dont know how low my chiller can go but I geussing 13c loaded with ice

I probably will do this one how I was going to then have a good look at this thread & give it a go just a few grey areas on how Zwickle does his fermentation process 3 days at 20c probably higher due to fermentation heat rack & cold condition for a week then drink is that it ?????

Oh for a nice wiezen

cheers all


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## hughyg (3/12/09)

So what do people think of the 30C rule I heard about once. Pitch at 12C then let it rise to 18C for the duration of ferment (12+18=30). Or 11C and 19C. I think I heard about it on the Jamill Hefe show.


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## browndog (3/12/09)

Nick JD said:


> Thanks! But I don't think there's anywhere in my city (Gold Coast) that sells any of these beers  :angry:



Nick,
I can't say I know the Gold Coast well at all, but on a recent day trip with the family I walked past a German Club/Restaurant near Cavill Ave. It was about 50m up a street on the western side of the Gold Coast HWY a block or two north of Cavill Ave. I so wanted to drop in and try a few beers but had to walk straight past.

cheers

Browndog


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## Zwickel (3/12/09)

hughyg said:


> So what do people think of the 30C rule I heard about once. Pitch at 12C then let it rise to 18C for the duration of ferment (12+18=30). Or 11C and 19C. I think I heard about it on the Jamill Hefe show.


there is no rule for all yeast strains. Each yeast strain has its own behavior. There are yeast strains, especially for Weizen, they stop activity immediately at temps below 19C.
So you could forget about pitching at low temp.

If youre going to buy a yeast strain, you should follow the recommendations of the producer.


:icon_cheers:


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## hughyg (4/12/09)

My hefe is fermenting fine at 18 as I post this. Made a 3 litre starter, started in a few hours and is attenuating nicely. I might let it heat up towards the end of ferment though.


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## Zwickel (4/12/09)

hughyg said:


> My hefe is fermenting fine at 18 as I post this. Made a 3 litre starter started is a few hours and is attenuating nicely. I might let it heat up towards the end of ferment though.


yeah and my hefe is fermenting well at around 6 to 8C, but the beer that comes out is not a Weizen then.

What I wanna say is: your goal is not only to get the wort fermented, you also want to give your beer a certain profile. In case youd like to produce a nice Hefeweizen, youd need a certain yeast strain that ferments at a certain temp, otherweise your beer will not become a Hefeweizen.
Especially in Weizens should be a composition of ester and aromes that gives the beer its unique flavour.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> yeah and my hefe is fermenting well at around 6 to 8C, but the beer that comes out is not a Weizen then.
> 
> What I wanna say is: your goal is not only to get the wort fermented, you also want to give your beer a certain profile. In case youd like to produce a nice Hefeweizen, youd need a certain yeast strain that ferments at a certain temp, otherweise your beer will not become a Hefeweizen.
> Especially in Weizens should be a composition of ester and aromes that gives the beer its unique flavour.


I do my hefe at the lower than recommended temps and find them very nice.Even at the lower recommend end temps they crawl out of the fermenter.Zwickel is right you dont want to go for the higher temps, you will still get the weizen profile that you want.
GB


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## hughyg (4/12/09)

so should i be fermenting a bit warmer than 18-19C. I was just going on the advice from the Jamil show on fermenting hefes


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## Zwickel (4/12/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I do my hefe at the lower than recommended temps and find them very nice.Even at the lower recommend end temps they crawl out of the fermenter.Zwickel is right you dont want to go for the higher temps, you will still get the weizen profile that you want.
> GB


Nev, as you wrote: "they crawl out of the fermenter", that means you have pitched a sufficient amount of yeast and that will certainly rise the temp inside the fermenter.
Other hand, if you are satisfied with the beer, dont go changing anything. Youve luckily found a yeast strain that behaves as you like, but you cant be sure all yeast strains behave the same way.

:icon_cheers:


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## rude (4/12/09)

accordingly to the manufacturer 18 - 24c so Ive just brewed mine at the lower end


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## rude (4/12/09)

By the way zwickle is that baby in the womb sucking on a Hefe Weizen


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/12/09)

hughyg said:


> so should i be fermenting a bit warmer than 18-19C. I was just going on the advice from the Jamil show on fermenting hefes


The yeast that I use (w3638) typically will work at much lower than recommend temps.You will find that you dont get a lot of 4vg (clove) at these temps, which I find can spoil a nice weizen if fermented at the higher temps.Once the yeast kicks in drop the temp quickly as it gets going really fast and produces a lot of exothermic heat.
GB


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## hughyg (4/12/09)

damn I always though clove was cooler and banana was warmer. oh well i'll se how it turns out


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## HoppingMad (4/12/09)

hughyg said:


> damn I always though clove was cooler and banana was warmer. oh well i'll se how it turns out



I thought the same? Higher temps for more banana? With the Wyeast 3068 the beers I've tried that were brewed at 24 degrees seem way more bananaery than mine that was brewed at 20-22? Like a banana smoothie. Had heard to back it off that 19 degrees is better if you're wanting a more neutral flavour that's not as big? Haven't tried myself though.

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (4/12/09)

browndog said:


> Nick,
> I can't say I know the Gold Coast well at all, but on a recent day trip with the family I walked past a German Club/Restaurant near Cavill Ave. It was about 50m up a street on the western side of the Gold Coast HWY a block or two north of Cavill Ave. I so wanted to drop in and try a few beers but had to walk straight past.
> 
> cheers
> ...



Thanks, will check it out. Never thought about restaurants...

EDIT: they have Schneider! But can I convince them to sell me one unopened???


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## browndog (4/12/09)

Nick JD said:


> Thanks, will check it out. Never thought about restaurants...
> 
> EDIT: they have Schneider! But can I convince them to sell me one unopened???




Good luck!


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## mintsauce (4/12/09)

Nick JD said:


> Thanks, will check it out. Never thought about restaurants...
> 
> EDIT: they have Schneider! But can I convince them to sell me one unopened???



I can imagine you sitting there, decanting the beer off (Yelling - "Don't Shake it too much" at the bar staff) then pulling out your spray bottle of Starsan and proceeding to sanitize a container while you're drinking the beer just so you can carry away the yeast


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## Nick JD (4/12/09)

MintSauce said:


> I can imagine you sitting there, decanting the beer off (Yelling - "Don't Shake it too much" at the bar staff) then pulling out your spray bottle of Starsan and proceeding to sanitize a container while you're drinking the beer just so you can carry away the yeast



:lol: 

I might just skulk around the back rifling through their bottle bins .... Mmmmm, sanitary.


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## driveitlikeustoleit (4/12/09)

According to Jamil (Brewing classic Styles) 17 degrees is the shiznit for banana flavour.
Check the section on German wheat beers

The man knows his shit.

In fact i'm enjoying a pint right now :icon_cheers:


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## hughman666 (4/12/09)

rude said:


> accordingly to the manufacturer 18 - 24c so Ive just brewed mine at the lower end



yep youll get more cloves at the lower end, bananas at the upper end.

either way i dont rack this beer, just straight from primary into the keg/bottle. if bottling though, keep it for 2-3 weeks before consuming but finish it within 6 weeks or it will start to lose its fresh "hefe hit"!

its such an easy style to make with such great reward.... :icon_cheers:


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## warra48 (9/12/09)

Bottled my latest hefeweizen this morning.
Here's a picture of the fermenter in the fridge, along with the blowoff bottle. Fermented at 17.5C.
The kraeusen climbed all the way to the top of the fermenter and out through the blowoff tube.
The yeast in the blowoff tube looks to be enough to pitch on its own in a new batch, but as I can't be sure of the sanitary state of the blowoff bottle, I disposed of it. 
I did harvest yeast from the slurry for pitching into a dunkelweizen brewed this afternoon, and which is chilling down to pitching temperature at present.


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## rude (10/12/09)

Bottled my Hefe today 1013-1012 tasted good went for 2.7 parts co2 carb level

It fermented for 12 days, krausen went, could have bottled earlier but too busy.

Xmas wheat you bloody beauty hop it pours with a nice lasting fluffy head.


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## hughyg (11/12/09)

What CO2 volume do others go for. isnt 2.7 little low? I think I read that they are meant to be from 3.6-4.48 vol CO2? I was going to keg my latest at 4.04?? Or will this over carb it?

Cheers
Hugh


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## manticle (11/12/09)

I have read 4 vol but 4 sounds to me ridiculously high. Even if it's traditional (and I don't find schofferhoffer, erdinger or weistephaner over the top) I wouldn't carb my own that high. I think my last was between 2.7 and 2.9 which is far higher than I'd do with anything else.


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## hughyg (11/12/09)

Cheers. I thought that seemed excessive. I might try 2.9 then. And dial it up if I feel the need
Hughyg


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## manticle (11/12/09)

I do prefer lower carbed beers but my experience of commercial hefes is not one of excessive gassing. There may be other factors that influence that perception.

Your mileage may vary etc, so how do you think a commercial wheat compares to what you've read?

Aim for that level.


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## schooey (11/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> ....and that is Zwickels Hefeweizen:



You wouldn't care to share the recipe for this, Zwickel? From reading your posts for some time now, I imagine it's nothing but simple..

:beer:

schooey


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## clifftiger (11/12/09)

That's a nice flower - please for the recipe Zwickel


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## Zwickel (12/12/09)

clifftiger said:


> That's a nice flower - please for the recipe Zwickel



okey-dokey, although Ive posted my very simple recipe very often here at AHB, Ill post it again.

As you may know, Im doing step mashing only, but you may do a single infusion mash as you used to do as well, I dont think that would change a lot.

Grain bill: 70% wheat malt, 30% pilsener malt

Im using 11kg grain for ~65 litre of beer, will be good for an OG of 1052 past boil.

dough in at ~35C, let it soak for around 20 min.
heat up to 43C doing a ferulic acid rest for ~15-20min.
heat up to 63C, rest for ~30min. doing a beta amylase rest
heat up to ~72C for another 30 min. doing an alpha amylase rest
heat up to 78C and mash out.

only one hops addition at begin of boiling, boil for 90 min. aiming for ~15 IBU

thats all, very simple isnt it?

Alternatively I could imagine to do as follows:

dough in at a water/grain ratio ~2:1 around 45C, directly doing a ferulic acid rest
add boiling water as much as needed to reach 66C and keep it there as long as you used to do.
mash out
Sparge to the desired OG

The main work will be done by the yeast then.


Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (12/12/09)

Zwickel - how much of the phenolic flavours are lost without the ferulic acid rest?


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## hughman666 (12/12/09)

Zwickel said:


> Grain bill: 70% wheat malt, 30% pilsener malt



thats interestng. i've typically used a 60% pils/40% wheat mix, but have never considered going over the other way, particularly 70% wheat!!

sounds like a plan, i'm going to try that for my next brew....thanks zwickel! :beer:


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## geoffi (12/12/09)

hughman666 said:


> thats interestng. i've typically used a 60% pils/40% wheat mix, but have never considered going over the other way, particularly 70% wheat!!
> 
> sounds like a plan, i'm going to try that for my next brew....thanks zwickel! :beer:




My standard mix is 65% wheat, 35% pils. But the latest I made is 35% Vienna.

Best I've ever brewed.


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## Bizier (12/12/09)

Cheers for the info guys. Great thread.
I brewed a mangled hopfen weiss inspired weizen for the NSW case swap, but got abominable efficiency. It is under-imperial and too grassy from the dry hop. It is also a bit thin due to me trying to dry an imperial gravity beer out with low mash temp. I pitched 1L starter to 25L from stirplate at 15C (HUGE sulphur) and ramped to about 20.

I really enjoyed the flavours from the 3068, and I am very keen to try a traditional simple style one. I will try your step mash regime and grist ratio Zwickel, that might get me closer to the mark. I might go no-chill and try 2 fermenting regimes on the same wort to see where I get better results.

Man, I think I might head over to the Concordia Club now that I have weizen on the brain.
Hmmm it is past 12.00.


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## geoffi (12/12/09)

Bizier said:


> Man, I think I might head over to the Concordia Club now that I have weizen on the brain.
> Hmmm it is past 12.00.



Last time I was there Maisel's Weisse was on offer. Mmm...


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## Zwickel (12/12/09)

Nick JD said:


> Zwickel - how much of the phenolic flavours are lost without the ferulic acid rest?


Mate, I dont know how much that would be. I think, that also depends on the yeast strain.
When I was a beginner in brewing, I did the same mash regime with weizens as I did with pilseners. That time my weizen turned out always a little bit thin, without that typical phenolic flavour that weizen usually has, or much less anyway.

So I was searching for advice and found some from a professional brewer here in town.
He adviced me to do a ferulic acid rest at around 43C and then slowly to heat up to the beta amylase rest at 63C.
At 43 a lot of 4vinyl guajakol is built, thats a precursor for phenolic flavour.

If youd like more to know about that: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...ab87412b044e5d7 

Slowly to heat up to the beta amylase rest means, also to pass through the protein range to produce a lot of amino acids thats needed for a strong yeast growth.

Since then, my Hefeweizen turnes out like a flavour bomb, the phenolic flavour goes straight into the nose 

Much to my regret, that specific flavour is not very stable, after a certain time of lagering the flavour is fading. Thats why weizen beers should be drunk fresh, dont keep it too long maturing.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (13/12/09)

So popping a few cloves in and ditching the ferulic acid rest ... does that pass the German purity laws?


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## rude (18/12/09)

Well tried my hefe today only 1 week in the bottle

Still a bit green

Carbed up alright with a good head but it soon disipated to nothing

What a let down I thought wheat aided head retention

Anyway the flavour is there but if a few more weeks doesnt sort out my head retention which I recon it wont my xmas hefe is a failure & I have the ingredients for another one shite

Any tips on how or why I cant get good head & its not the glass


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## Hogshead (19/12/09)

Hey Zwickel, do you bottle or keg?
I've always had trouble pouring my weizen from tap.Maybe because I like them carbed at 3+ volumes. Just curious what line length/pressures work.


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## Zwickel (19/12/09)

Hogshead said:


> Hey Zwickel, do you bottle or keg?
> I've always had trouble pouring my weizen from tap.Maybe because I like them carbed at 3+ volumes. Just curious what line length/pressures work.


Im using kegs only, or later, if I wanna give away some bottles, Im using a CPBF.

The beer stands around 2C in the kegerator, beer tube length is around 1m and the pressure is ~150 KPa. Tap with flow restrictor is highly recommended.
That way it works really well.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## Hogshead (19/12/09)

-"Tap with flow restrictor".
Are they the ones with the little lever out the side? I thought they may be the answer to my weizen foaming problems, but have never heard any feedback on then - until now!
I like the carbonation that temp/pressure creates, the problem was getting it into the glass!
Thanks Zwickel.


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## Zwickel (19/12/09)

Hogshead said:


> -"Tap with flow restrictor".
> Are they the ones with the little lever out the side? I thought they may be the answer to my weizen foaming problems, but have never heard any feedback on then - until now!
> I like the carbonation that temp/pressure creates, the problem was getting it into the glass!
> Thanks Zwickel.



yeah, without a flow restrictor (little lever on the side) it is almost impossible to pour a reasonable weizen.

Over here the CO2 content in the beer is counted in gram per litre. For example a Pilsener should contain around 5g/l and Weizen 7.5g/l
To hold that amount of CO2 in solution, one need a pressure of around 150KPa at around 2C (Weizen)

Thats quite a lot of CO2 and a normal tap would be producing a lot of foam, hence the beer would be stale in the end, because all the CO2 is escaping directly at the tap.

:icon_cheers:


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## rude (22/12/09)

nearly 2 weeks in the bottle & my xmas hefe is looking good

not up to zwickles standard I'm sure

still for a first up wheat I'm happy


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## rude (24/12/09)

just had to show a better pic of my hefe brewed at 18c lots of banana

next time I will ferment colder cheers all hope everyone has a good one 

thanks for all advice from all of you


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## Screwtop (24/12/09)

rude said:


> just had to show a better pic of my hefe brewed at 18c lots of banana
> 
> next time I will ferment colder cheers all hope everyone has a good one
> 
> thanks for all advice from all of you




Nice, prefer my weizens to have more banana than clove. There is just something about Aussie summers and big white headed glasses of weizenbier eh rude?

Perfect................

Screwy


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## rude (24/12/09)

Bloody oath mate Im chasing the Weihenstephan clone but Im not that fussed

Will have to try a wit down the track maybe a Ferrel white clone

All the best to ya Screwy you little Aussie beauty hope ya have a good one

cheers rude


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## churchy (29/12/09)

I brewed a Heffe for Christmas with the 3068 yeast at 20c and it had way too much clove in it.Ended up tipping the keg out, I thought I might try fermenting cooler next time to get the banana taste.




Andrew


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## rude (30/12/09)

Its the other way around I think churchy


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## warra48 (30/12/09)

I'm not a great believer in manipulating the esters in a Hefeweizen.

For me, what works is to build up a good sized starter of around 3 litres.
I pitch the slurry at 17 to 18C, and ferment at that temperature all the way through.

Even at that temperature it climbs out of the fermenter, so I use a blowoff tube.

I get nicely balanced spice (or clove if you wish), with subtle banana. It's all about balancing body and mouthfeel with flavour and aromas.


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