# Where Ahb People Are Coming From



## Batz (17/2/05)

Could I suggest that AHB is more for the partial and all grain mashers?
And those who are working towards this?

I and most of the others here want to help anyone lookoing towards this.

Don't get all funny now , not having a go at anyone here , if i can help with you move to AG I am more than willing PM or email me.....or visit me !!

Batz


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## normell (17/2/05)

Batz said:


> Could I suggest that AHB is more for the partial and all grain mashers?
> And those who are working towards this?
> 
> I and most of the others here want to help anyone looking towards this.
> ...


Hi Batz
I've just moved from K&K thru can & extras into Masterbrews, and hope to go on to partials soon, but at this time NO intentions of going all grain at all.
But I see AHB as very helpful to me, both now and I hope in the future.
I am relatively new to computers, as most will know by now  but have been brewing for a while.
I hope that you and all the others will continue to help me, even tho I am only a up-market K&K brewer.
Normell
 :huh:


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## wee stu (17/2/05)

normell said:


> at this time NO intentions of going all grain at all.
> [post="45484"][/post]​



oh dear, that's where it all starts :excl: 

signed, wee stu - the "I don't want to go there" K & K'er who is only planning 3 all grains in the next 3 days  

give into the dark side now - resistance is futile.


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## Backlane Brewery (17/2/05)

No offence taken here at Backlane , Batz.

Our take on this has always been that for us, K&K was part of a journey towards...who knows? Kit plus? Partial mash? AG? Whatever suits the brewer.

For the record, we are now doing kit plus beer, all juice ciders (various juices & flavourings), fruit wine (the first batch of mango wine went on this week) as well as looking at learning food pickling/fermentation techniques(sour cherries, dill pickles, real sauerkraut etc.). Oh, plus preserved lemons, and flavoured vodka-based liquers. 
And the lauter tun project is up & running, so attempts at some sort of AG are on the way.

The lengths you wish to go in exploring HB & related stuff is one of the many areas of HB where it's down to the individual. Our detour into brewing using soft drinks is one example- what we think is an interesting curiosity looks like a disgusting waste of time to others.


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## sluggerdog (17/2/05)

Batz said:


> Could I suggest that AHB is more for the partial and all grain mashers?
> And those who are working towards this?
> 
> I and most of the others here want to help anyone lookoing towards this.
> ...




I aggree, before I found this site I didn't even know what AG, Mash, Extract etc etc (and on and on and on and on) was, now I am slowly moving up the chains (done 1 partial so far)


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## jaytee (17/2/05)

I came by AHB looking for kegging resources. 

I was a contented K&K bloke at the time and had no intention of using grains, hops or even a teabaggy thingy

But, as even the K&K questions get answered with replies suggesting steeping, part mash, liquid yeasts .. there's no doubting where the direction of the forum will lead you.

Now I'm a contented part masher with no intentions of AG'ing ..


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## PostModern (17/2/05)

*I think a separate "Kits and Bits" sub-forum might be the best solution.*

It seems to me that in the past 2-3 months the number of threads about kits has increased _dramatically_. Now there's nothing wrong with brewing kits. Many (but by no means all) part mashers and AG brewers put the odd kit on as a quick way to fill a keg or some bottles... but I agree with Batz and think that kits are for "home fermenting", not home_brewing_.

I don't think the attitude should be to send newbies to learn kit brewing elsewhere then come here when they're ready to make real beer, but containing their often repetitive threads to a separate forum would be a great idea!


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## Backlane Brewery (17/2/05)

Is no one going to bite? Oh well...
Think a newbie forum would be a good idea, but it will only work if people actually look at previous threads/posts in it before asking (again) about sucrose, oxidization, plastic vs glass, fermenting temps, how to pull apart kegs, best pumps/mills etc. etc. etc. 

Also, I don't think the repetitive threads are 100% confined to K&K topics. Maybe the current upgrade could could extend to include a bigger shinier search button.


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## dane (17/2/05)

I think some good point have been brought up in this thread.

It's good to see that AHB is finding it's own niche and if that is "partial and all grain mashers" then thats great.

I think it's definately something that we should look at, splitting the forum up a bit to different sections.

A newbie section is a good idea, me being probabaly the biggest newbie brewer on the forums  I started this site cause I couldn't find a lot of local information when I bought my first beer kit and no look what has happened.

I think if a newbie section is going to go ahead, work defiantely has to be done on the FAQ's and Tutorials, I know there are a couple floating around on the site, but we should bring those together and get a really good fact file going so people can get all the reference they need and then start to move on into the more complicated processes (if they wish).

People are always going to brew for different reasons so I think defferent sections makes sense.

I think it's crazy that people have "issues" with K&K 'brewer's and vica-versa. I think more defined sections in the forums should allow information to flow easier and may help stop some of the crazy postings that have been going on lately.

I might change the colour of the search section again to entice people to search before they post. But I think a revised Resource/Fact File/FAQ's/Tutorial section would be really useful.


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## fergi (17/2/05)

well i take exception to the fact that all us k&k brewers ask repetitive questions because from what i can see we ask these questions because we dont know where the previous question by someone else was answered and it is also a way to communicate with home brewers on this site,and if a new brewer came on here and only ever went to look at his queries on past posts he would never have to come on the forum and get to know the other brewers on this site,and by asking the stupid same old question we get different answers from different brewers as there is not usually only one way of doing things.and also there are new people on here that like to express their opinion on what they do and are only too pleased to answer a question which has already been asked on this forum. and if you take the time to look a lot of you AG experts still ask the same old stupid repetitive things as well but maybe as you guys are AG brewers you are allowed to ask the same old repetitive questions instead of looking it up in the past answers
cheers
fergi


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## Backlane Brewery (17/2/05)

Calm down fergi.
No one ever said ALL K&K brewers ask repetitive questions. Take a few deep breaths & then read PostModern & my posts again.
Batz original was a sincere offer to help anyone who asks. 
What's to take exception to?

And getting sarcastic- "you AG experts" etc. gets the issue, and the forum, nowhere.


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## quincy (17/2/05)

I'm a kits and bits brewer. (next brew will be my first partial - then - who knows??)
I've asked some dumb questions that have always been politely answered by people that are AGers.

So we end up with a few "sub forums" - big deal.
If I was starting again, I would find a section for the absolute beginner a welcome sight.

My 2c.

Cheers

Just a thought - can we split the Gear and Equipment section to say Keg gear and AG gear??


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## roach (17/2/05)

Dane,
I think you summed it up well and in the interests of dowsing the "repetitive question" fire, you should lock the thread.

Roach


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## normell (17/2/05)

So Post Modern
I think a separate "Kits and Bits" sub-forum might be the best solution.

It seems to me that in the past 2-3 months the number of threads about kits has increased dramatically. Now there's nothing wrong with brewing kits. Many (but by no means all) part mashers and AG brewers put the odd kit on as a quick way to fill a keg or some bottles... but I agree with Batz and think that kits are for "home fermenting", not homebrewing.

I don't think the attitude should be to send newbies to learn kit brewing elsewhere then come here when they're ready to make real beer, but containing their often repetitive threads to a separate forum would be a great idea! 
How do we graduate from K&Kers right up to the _good god almighty_AG brewer,s if we are put into another section. :blink: 
We are not even good enough to be called brewers, just "fermeners"
I was thinking that one day in the distant future, of becoming an AG brewer, but now I dont know if I want to, if I'll end up with an attitude like that. :blink: 
I thought that AHB was for all brewers, but it must be for all grain brewers instead.
But than again, as I have proved just recently that i am a D**khead brewer, sorry "fermenter"
Normell


Normell perhaps we could put you under "Humour and Jokes" section ?

Whoa !! only joking only joking


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## Doc (17/2/05)

normell said:


> How do we graduate from K&Kers right up to the _good god almighty_AG brewer,s if we are put into another section. :blink:



Normell,

It is all about grouping similar posts to make it easier to navigate and find info.
You can change your brewing style by reading other sub-forums. 
You would still have access to each of the categories.
Consider it like the Fiction and Non-Fiction sections in a library.

Doc


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## Backlane Brewery (17/2/05)

jeez some people are touchy...and selective readers too.
From past experience I know how touchy some people get when any sort of distinction is drawn between K&K and AG, but still always amazes me watching people shoot their mouths off online.
Normell, wait til you re-read your post tomorrow. I don't know whether or not you are a dickhead, but in the post you come across as a spoilt 5 year old, stamping his foot in the playground. Lighten up.

Can we get some reasoned ideas on this please? FAQs & sub sections should make the whole forum more useful for all of us.


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## pint of lager (17/2/05)

What I see happen is a newbie brewer leaps in, number of posts =1, Question, I have a new brewery, and ........ In some forums, the curt answer is, USE THE SEARCH BUTTON YOU GIMME TOSA. Fortunately, this is not so on this forum.

Someone answers their initial questions, gently suggests to read the forums, the newbie undergoes a learning process of using forums as well as learning to brew beer. By the time they progress to mini mashing, they have a good handle on forum etiquette and the search button.

By reading other exchanges, you end up with lots of ideas. If all you read about is what brewbag or hopbag to add to what kit, that is the level you stay at. There is life after the $2.50 hop teabag.

I do agree, that beginner info needs to be in an easily accessable format. Answers to those hard beginner questions such as, my airlock isn't working, do need to be in one spot.


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## dane (17/2/05)

I am continued to be amazed how personally people take some of this stuff. 

I'm not sure if it is that people are drinking too much...or not enough!

*sighs*

As Doc pointed out this isn't about grouping people based on how they brew, it is about making it easier for everyone to use this site.

I think I have an idea on what reorganising I need to do.

I know there is a nice tutorial addon for this, which might come in handy.

Break it up into brewing types (see guys, brewing types not personality types), and then brewing levels and styles.

Just a one stop shop for general questions and problems people may run into. The tute can that advise them to search the forum for more info, and if you are unable to find it then they can post a question.

You will find people in here are happy to help others. You will also find if you try and help yourself by doing a bit of research and exlplain that in your post then the answer that you get will be even better.


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## RobW (17/2/05)

Jeez Fergie, I nearly went blue reading that sentence :lol: :lol: 
I agree with you though. If it's a question you've seen posted before just feel free to skip over it but there have been plenty of posts of so-called simple or repeated "newbie" questions where somebody chimes in with a new slant or a totally different solution - thinking "outside the box". I don't think it's a good idea to split into different groups & I really hate that ag brewers are real brewers & nobody else is attitude. (Fortunately rarely seen on this site) Let's stick together & all help each other out without looking down our noses at people who do things differently.

Rob

AG brewer (but still with heaps to learn)


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## kungy (17/2/05)

I agree with pint of lager. I would like to add that the key is visibility as others have suggested previously. Its all well and good if there is a new brewers resource link, but for such a thing to work it needs to be highly visible so that they think of using it first rather than asking a question and being directed to it.

From past experience if it is not highly visible, the problem will emerge like the search button experience. ALA The solution to their question is in the search button, but generally they haven't seen it or thought of using it. 

They therefore need to think of going there first rather than asking a question they may be deemed repetitive by members of this forum (which sometimes includes me!). I definitately agree though that people need to step back, and view the whole picture and relax. We are on the same team!

Will


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## PostModern (17/2/05)

normell, 
Try this exercise: subscribe to OCB and post a kit question. Then get 10 of your friends to do the same. (Actually, don't do that).

We seem to have occupied the middle ground between the K+K group and the truly hardcore AG/Craft brewers. The recent influx of "kit only" brewers (from Grumpys??) has drastically changed the tone and focus of this forum, which is why I think Batz is getting put out.

There is nothing to stop you from reading the other forums if you wish to gain ideas about brewing your own beer and there is nothing stopping the AGers and other experienced brewers from offerring advice in a kit forum... 

Stop being so defensive. We are not Grumpys and we aren't discriminating against any type of brewer. My suggestion was to try to make things BETTER for K+K brewers.


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## Tony M (17/2/05)

I think Batz has the devil in him and just started this thread to get yet another rip roaring blue going!


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## normell (17/2/05)

But I'm only saying Backlane, if all were like Post Modern, with statements like, _but I agree with Batz and think that kits are for "home fermenting", not homebrewing._
If that aint being elitist, and putting down as inferior, all that ain't AGer's, it's my turn to shout, whattya all drinking. :huh:


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## Darren (17/2/05)

Here we go again


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## Backlane Brewery (17/2/05)

PM's opinion or lack of it on how you choose to make beer is down to him. 

From what I've seen of his posts he knows his stuff, but I would no more choose to be upset by what he & Batz may think of kit brewing than whether they might prefer tea to coffee. It just doesn't matter. As far as I can tell they were only expressing honest opinions on a site they have been involved with for years.

Nor will I decide be offended by your crack about "great God almighty AG brewers" when I stick the airlock in our first batch of AG in a couple of weeks.

I thought this thread was about making the forum even better for all of us to use. It's funny, I was reading my 5 year old daughter Dr Suess' "Star Bellied Sneetches" just the other day...she got the point.


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## PostModern (17/2/05)

normell said:


> But I'm only saying Backlane, if all were like Post Modern, with statements like, _but I agree with Batz and think that kits are for "home fermenting", not homebrewing._
> If that aint being elitist, and putting down as inferior, all that ain't AGer's, it's my turn to shout, whattya all drinking. :huh:
> [post="45634"][/post]​



Look, you can take it as elitist if you like. If you continued to read more of my post instead of jumping up and down about one point, you might get some benefit from this discussion. Frankly, I can't be bothered arguing with you. Take some time to read my old posts and you might understand that I hold nothing against the kit, nor against the k+k brewer. Some of my best friends brew kits.

Dane, if you set up a new forum for k+k, I'll gladly help move existing appropriate threads into it.


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## jgriffin (17/2/05)

I think the idea of a seperate forum is a good idea?

Why? Well it's simple. People get tired of answering the same questions, and after a while, even the most patient person will be taken to the point of answering a q with "use the bloody search button".

When i first joined this forum, i didn't even know that there was such a thing as partial or full mash brewing for home brewers. I thought the whole world revolved around kits, but thanks to this forum, and the suggestions to read "How to brew" i learned that kits weren't all that there was.

However, it was not until i went along a a brisbane brew day and tasted some AG beers that i decided to give up on kit brewing, and move to partials / ag. 

So we want to be kind to new members, give them a good section where they can read planty of FAQ's, and slowly try to convince them to try partial mashes.


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## pint of lager (17/2/05)

I am a hardcore OCB user and really really enjoy it. Some of the exchanges are a bit over the top and the page down button gets used. Other posts get saved to the bits and pieces files.

It is totally different in the way information gets distributed. Yes, questions get asked and not answered, but have seen the same here, once something slips under the 10 recent post box, it vanishes. Depends on who is watching and who is asleep. It does not mean someone is sitting there just letting the questions slip through.

The internet brewing community has helped me go from infected K+K to award winning all grainer.


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## JasonY (17/2/05)

Yep I hink some sub catgories will help to organise posts better, I've been here for a bit over a year and the traffic going though the site has increased massively making it increasingly hard to find what you want. There is some gold in these forums but it can be hard to find.

This is not about trying to put brewers into boxes based on how they choose to brew but making the site easier to use for all. 

And remember your not a real brewer unless .... <insert whatever definition you want as long as it has to do with brewing beer> :beerbang:


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## Backlane Brewery (17/2/05)

> This is not about trying to put brewers into boxes based on how they choose to brew but making the site easier to use for all.



that's what I thought, but apparently some people see it differently.



> And remember your not a real brewer unless .... <insert whatever definition you want as long as it has to do with brewing beer>


you can hold your pint while headbanging without spilling a drop like this little fella
:beerbang: 


Backlane out, think I've said enough for one day...


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## MAH (17/2/05)

Doc said:


> It is all about grouping similar posts to make it easier to navigate and find info.
> You can change your brewing style by reading other sub-forums.
> You would still have access to each of the categories.
> Consider it like the Fiction and Non-Fiction sections in a library.
> ...



Jeez Doc I'm surprised that everyone let this comment go through to the keeper. I'd like to know which style of brewing is fiction  ?

I just love a good flame war on the topic of AG vs everyone else. Top work Batz, even if you weren't trolling I think you've already caught your bag limit :lol: !

Dane, maybe we can have a new emoticon of a little smiley face with a fishing rod?

Cheers
MAH


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## Ross (17/2/05)

Batz,

Your kind invitation certainly set the bats amongst the mangoes...lol

You mentioned on a posting re grains that you were interested in freight to Sunshine coast - you heading to Qld mate?.....


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## Archiguy (17/2/05)

Hi

I'm a newbie K+K beer enthusiast who's come to this site because I want to make a better beer. So i've only made 8 or 10 beers over the last year, got one fermenter, no fridge and no real idea. But, I repeat - I found this site because _I wanted to make a better beer_ .

My first post I trod on a few toes asking about a Brown Mild with a certain can - it wasn't the most interesting topic for AG's or even partials but I got helpful useful answers and increased my knowledge. I've read a few posts from those who have hundreds of posts saying that this site brought them a huge way in a small period of time. Every brewer can learn something from the smallest bit of information - god these hundreds of different ways to do things.

Me I found that the links in Fact File and Resources were the best introduction to the world of better tasting beer. So my two cents worth is - post on the front of the forum a Newbies sub-forum and anchor a whole lot of topics, including those from the Fact file and resources bit. Make it impossible to miss.....

Me i'm off to drink a Muntons pilsner with extra hops, wheat malt, brew booster, better yeast - all found off this site! 

Matthew


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## Batz (17/2/05)

Perhaps they could be put under the " Humor & Jokes" section :blink: 

Whoa !!!

Only Joking , only joking . :lol: :lol: 


Settle guys have a Homebrew , be it whatever 

Batz ( the bad boy )

Did I open that??


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## Batz (17/2/05)

Ross said:


> Batz,
> 
> Your kind invitation certainly set the bats amongst the mangoes...lol
> 
> ...




Yes I am 

And hope to be able to have a beer with all the Qld. brewers


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## Ross (17/2/05)

Look forward to it Batz... :chug: 

Hopefully I'll have a few AG's in the kegs by then as well.... :super:


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## phantom (17/2/05)

This is like a socio political debate(very entertaining).A bit like communism.
On a small scale its all about the common unity and love your fellow human.
As it grows it becomes factionalised and divisions and different status and personal interest groups appear.
Beer is in danger of becoming like wine and becoming an entity that is disparate from its essence.
I personally have learnt much and will learn much more from this site.The fact that i brew extract is irrelevant to my status.
The future is ,you split and have different forums or we all apply some tolerance and continue into the future witH a common goal.MAKING GOOD BEER.
Here ends my political 2c worth. :excl:


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## Batz (17/2/05)

phantom said:


> This is like a socio political debate(very entertaining).A bit like communism.
> On a small scale its all about the common unity and love your fellow human.
> As it grows it becomes factionalised and divisions and different status and personal interest groups appear.
> Beer is in danger of becoming like wine and becoming an entity that is disparate from its essence.
> ...




:blink: :huh: Holy Moly


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## Doc (17/2/05)

jgriffin said:


> I think the idea of a seperate forum is a good idea?
> 
> Why? Well it's simple. People get tired of answering the same questions, and after a while, even the most patient person will be taken to the point of answering a q with "use the bloody search button".



Finally someone has noticed I don't answer many of the FAQ's anymore.
Good spotting jgriffin.

Doc

PS: Must almost time to close this topic, as I think everyone has stated their point and had their say.

PPS: I don't want to categorise what is Fiction or Non Fiction MAH. Categorisation and putting people in boxes can be bad :lol:


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## sluggerdog (17/2/05)

I agree with the whole search first thing however, I did find when I first started out, I didn't even know what I was supposed to be searching for... Special names for things etc etc


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## jgriffin (17/2/05)

sluggerdog said:


> I agree with the whole search first thing however, I did find when I first started out, I didn't even know what I was supposed to be searching for... Special names for things etc etc
> [post="45734"][/post]​



That's why a "New to brewing? Post Here" forum is a good idea. You can fill it with sticky FAQ threads, and anyone answering questions knows what they are getting into.

Knowing enough to ask intelligent questions is the first step (thanks Jonathan Palmer!)


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## Boots (17/2/05)

I know i shouldn't just keep feeding this, but why are people talking about splitting up brewers? That is not what's being said.

Don't personalise this... the talk is about categorising information into similar groups. It is NOT about splitting up brewers. Everyone knows that the more people involved in brewing the better it is for everyone, there will be more products released to market, more research, and better beer. Everyone wants new brewers to feel welcome. AGers know this and have always helped out those wanting it.

Under the new plan, all brewers will contribute to all sections there will not be a divide. There are no Greasers and Soc's.

I think that both this website, and the regulars who frequent it deserve a bit more credit than is being given.

I bet my next brew that Allgrain brewers will contribute a lot to the FAQ's for the newer brewers - as they have throughout the history of AHB.

rambling rant ends now


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## jgriffin (17/2/05)

I'm not talking about splitting brewers up. Apart from this forum, i moderate on another very large forum, and have seen the progression on multiple forums from helpfull to mundane and boring. On Whirlpool for example, i must have got to around 8,000 posts before i started to get sick of answering questions. The same happend to most of the other usefull posters. The problem now, is that the people you really want to be get advice on, are no longer giving advice. It now often happens that really bad advice is given to people - blind leading the blind.

Now you shouldn't split people up at all, but if you have an area where the beginners can go, read some information, and ask questions without getting flamed, then in very short order (sometimes minutes) they suddenly know enough to ask intelligent questions. I've seen this approach used on other forums and it usually succesfull. 

We've all been in situations where we are beginners (hell i didn't even know what sparging was 9 months ago, and still feel that i only know enough to try to ask the right questions) but if you don't foster some kind of "introduction" mechansism, then you will eventually end up with two distinct sets of users on the forum that will form the own cliques.

Note, i'm projecting well into the future, but i've seen it happen dozens of times. There's a rule on the internet about forums - the usefullness of any forum is inversely proportional to the number of users. That's because the "old hands" get annoyed and stop posting, and the forum gets swamped by new users, and lots of noise.
Once again, i'm not saying that AHB is like this at all, i just don't want it to end up that way.


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## Linz (18/2/05)

I dont want to add anything to this debate.........





........but everyone else has posted here, so I wanted to too!





OH NO IT'S HAPPENING.......... I'VE STOPPED ANSWERING QUESTIONS!!!!! :wacko: :blink: h34r: 




is this being "normal" or "normell"???


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## jaytee (18/2/05)

How will you encourage K&K'ers to move on if you direct them to a K&K section ?

If you ask a K&K question and get a K&K answer, that's not giving the poster any encouragement to change what they're doing.

Answer a K&K question with steeping, part mash, liquid yeast, hops sort of talk and you're moving them along, raising the bar for them.

It's not a question of in which forum you answer the question, but how it's answered


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## PostModern (18/2/05)

jaytee said:


> Answer a K&K question with steeping, part mash, liquid yeast, hops sort of talk and you're moving them along, raising the bar for them.
> 
> It's not a question of in which forum you answer the question, but how it's answered
> [post="45771"][/post]​



I don't think so. Imagine this thread:

*k+k* I want to make an interesting beer out of a Cooper Lager kit. Should I use brewbooster 4 or 5? And what hops. 
*AG* You want to get a couple of kilos of Joe White Pilsner malt, mash it a bit cool, say 63 because you want a thin beer. Which hops depends on what style you're shooting for. What is your yeast selection? North German Pils? Oktoberfest?
*k+k* I wanna brew this tonight.
*AG* No problem, the mash is only for an hour. Sparging is less than 40 mins for such a small grain bill. What's your mash efficiency like?
*k+k* My last beer was 5.2% alc.
*AG* Probably a problem with your mash tun manifold.

Can you see the rift?

Putting a "kit brewing and improvement" forum on AHB attracts the readership to the site without cluttering the existing forums. Asking how to improve kits in a forum where many people no longer brew them is not going to lead to useful information. I'm aware that there are many brewers who have made kits for a long time and have a wealth of experience. About one in three of my brews is a kit and extract or a kit part-mashed. I'd be happy to answer questions in a dedicated kit forum. I'd also ask a lot of questions in there. 

I think a kit sub-forum is a positive thing, not a negative one. As Doc said, categorising makes using the forum easier. Batz's suggestion that AHB is about people who brew or are moving towards brewing partial mashes and AG is probably correct. There are other places run by kit sellers where you can get more useful and relevant information if you are happy to brew only kits.


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## AndrewQLD (18/2/05)

I think a section for newbie questions is a good idea, especially if you can lock in some of the more common FAQs. I don't think that there are many of us here who can't say that they tend to scroll past the posts like, "my fermenter has stopped bubbling", or " Is dextrose better than sugar". These are all relevant questions for new brewers, but how many times should you have to answer them. A section with all of this posted and answered would be much easier and quicker for people to get the answers they want.

And I don't think of this as seperating K&Ks from AGers, there are seperate sections in this forum for recipes, equipement ect,ect.

I can only see this as being helpfull to people who want answers quickly.

Regards
Andrew


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## Backlane Brewery (18/2/05)

And who can forget this series of questions?

Wonder how his crop is coming along...


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## MAH (18/2/05)

phantom said:


> Beer is in danger of becoming like wine and becoming an entity that is disparate from its essence.



And 1st year uni students who have learnt a few new concepts are in danger of writing meaningless twaddle, even if the words they've grouped together sound impressive.

How has wine become distinctly different from it's "essence"? And more crucial to the statement what the $%#@ is the essence of wine? Then following on from this premis what is the essence of beer?

Many would say that K+K is disparate from the essence of brewing as brewing is the process of making beer from malt and hops by steeping, boiling and fermentation.

See how my statement makes sense!

Cheers
MAH


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## Ross (18/2/05)

If nothing else, everyone seems to be putting their 2c worth in on this one...

It seems to me that you're maybe coming at this from the wrong angle - Yes I agree, a FAQ section well laid out for the newbie would be great, but above this it's very hard for someone new, without a lot of searching, to find & read all the threads (or lack of) on a subject. Also these are quite often old threads, whereas new products & ideas may have superseeded them...

You currently have a section where you ask the newbie to ask his questions..... >

Brewing Questions/Advice? 
New to brewing? Need some advice? Have a starter kit? Have you ruined your latest batch? This section if for you!

..... What you don't have is a section for advanced brewers only to post.

Far easier to put this in - where those that are tired of helping others with repetetive questions can browse this section only, if they so wish - rather than trying to stop newbies from posting threads, on what is, an open forum...

Forums grow & evolve with the people that use them... Anyone who has been a long term member of any specialised forum is bound to grow tired at times from repetetive questions, but by a forums very nature you won't stop this...

Funny thing is - in time - the advanced brewers section will go through the same evolution, as some of the longer serving members will again be looking for an escape from repetetive questions yet again....


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## dane (18/2/05)

While I have been tempting in closing this thread a couple of times, it is good to see that most people are actually spending time in posting their thoughts. Many posts are long and indepth....I like it!

I'll keep this open so everyone can express their thoughts, however a forum reorganisation is going to happen whatever way you look at it.

Just remember it is happening so it makes it easier for the flow of information and from an organisational point of view....nothing else.


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## sluggerdog (18/2/05)

To make it simple, I'd say that we need to split the category: 
Brewing Questions/Advice

i.e.

Brewing Questions/Advice For the Kit Brewer
Brewing Questions/Advice For the Extract/Partial Brewer (maybe not this one.. merge with AG)
Brewing Questions/Advice For the All Grain Brewer


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## normell (18/2/05)

Hi Guys
Me again, I agree with the idea of a FAQ section for newbies, as long as some experienced brewers are available for the hard to answer questions that are not covered in FAQ
We don't need new brewers answering other new brewers questions with wrong answers and therefor turning them of brewing
I have gone from K&K to K& extras and doing Masterbrews and Extrabrews, so I guess that I am now a Extract brewer or partial, I don't know :blink: 
Time restrictions are the reason I am not planning on going FULL GRAIN at the moment, I work away thru the week and only have the weekend to do washing, housework, and a brew. But if and when I work from home base, then I might go down the AG path.
Normell
 :huh:


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## PostModern (18/2/05)

sluggerdog, I think that's a valid idea, but if we categorise every area into so many levels, the index would look like the Pub - too many choices > more thread administering to do for people who post in the wrong forum. In a way, the forum's format needs to be forum noob friendy too.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (18/2/05)

I agree with most of the suggestions made. And definately some basic topics on sanitation, fermentation temps etc stuck at the top so the newbie gets a sound intro.

The hardest thing would be getting the more experienced guys to help out the newer brewers.

Maybe we could get some experienced volunteers to put their hands up to help out more regularly

1) New/K+K brewers

2) Extract

3)PM and AG

The idea would be that the more experienced K & K'er can help answer those questions etc.

Just my thoughts.

C&B
TDA


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## GMK (18/2/05)

I am happy to help the K+K and Extract


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## deebee (18/2/05)

This forum is a well of information on every aspect of home brewing. The community it creates is priceless. F'rinstance, over the last couple of weeks I have had PMs from other members offering to lend me equipment, another referring me to an article on a beer I am planning to brew and another wanting to swap hop plants. Couldnt do it without AHB. *sniff*...

I love this forum very few wankers, just the odd meathead, a small number of clowns but 90% dedicated brewers happy to contribute to the community. Amongst them is a core of valuable members with high levels of expertise and even professional savvy. I am very grateful for this spirit of cooperation that has lifted my brewing above the basics. Lets not get too precious and cliquey about whos cool and whos not; its against the spirit of the forum.

An FAQ section is a great idea. I also support a section on brewing basics to help eliminate silly questions. I dont favour setting up different parts of the forum for different levels of brewing practices. More pigeonholes wont make the operation tidier. Just use your own discretion as to which threads you want to read and dont get cross with people asking the questions you were asking a few months or years ago.

Ideally all users who register should be directed to a clear account of home brewing explaining kit and extract brewing and maybe even a brief outline of the mash. This account should have links to appropriate threads on AHB and some other good basic texts and perhaps a strong recommendation that all brewers read How To Brew. It should also link to an FAQ page.

The FAQ page could be a work in progress for us over the next few months with members posting Qs & As and administrators trimming them back to the gooduns. Once complete it could be locked and available in a read-only format.

And finally, I love youse all. 

Well, most of youse.


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## Backlane Brewery (18/2/05)

great post deebee


i think it's time for another

GROUP HUG  :beer:  :beer:


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## jaytee (18/2/05)

Great idea to add resources specifically for different types of brewing or fermenting

Now the question is how to progress those people in the basic section to the partmash/ag section - which is sort of where Batz started the topic off ?


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## PostModern (18/2/05)

Not everyone wants to progress into the "elite" group.
Hence the need for a forum for people who are happy with the kit-makers' products.


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## jaytee (18/2/05)

Quite right PoMo, not all people, including myself, aspire to the pinnicle of brewing or fermentation

But the original offer from Batz was to help move people to your 'elite' level

There's been some great discussion and a lot of good ideas, but the topic seems to have evolved into a strategy to seperate the skill levels rather than to enhance them

The suggestion of deebee's FAQ and Basics is great and if you can direct traffic there that'd be one way to make good information available upfront so that you don't get the same 'silly questions' coming up ad-nauseum. 



> An FAQ section is a great idea. I also support a section on brewing basics to help eliminate silly questions.





> clear account of home brewing explaining kit and extract brewing and maybe even a brief outline of the mash.



I thought that the way to get more people to that 'elite' group might be to have more generous offers of assistance and encouragement, as Batz originally made ?

Or maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the thread ?


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## Gough (18/2/05)

I've stayed out of this discussion thus far 'cause I think we've discussed many of these points before but...

Basically I think Deebee has hit the nail on the head. Part of the real strength of this forum is the mix of people and the mix of brewing styles/expertise. I'm not really for elitism of any sort and think most of the time we get the mix pretty right around here. I think the suggestion that we come up with a direction to some basic 'how-to' guides and FAQ's on registration is a good one. I don't really see the need to split the forum up too much though - I'd argue the reason those of us that have been around here for a while, since May 03 in my case with 143 longer than me, is because the forum is so good, and because the mix is generally pretty spot on. If some of the more experienced blokes don't want to answer really basic questions, fair enough, there are lots of others on here who can and will help out. This forum has seen my brewing move from kits and bits to AG and I'm very grateful for the support I've had here. Hopefully I've helped out a bit along the way as well and hope to do more so in the future as my experience level increases. I dunno, I reckon there are a lot more good things than bad about this forum as is. Some minor changes maybe along the lines of Deebee's post, but if it aint really broke why 'fix' it?

Now where can I join that group hug   

Shawn.


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## PostModern (18/2/05)

jaytee said:


> Or maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the thread ?
> [post="45832"][/post]​



Perhaps I did?


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## Batz (18/2/05)

PostModern said:


> Not everyone wants to progress into the "elite" group.
> Hence the need for a forum for people who are happy with the kit-makers' products.
> [post="45829"][/post]​




Too true PM , not all want to do AG , kit brewers are cool , beware most of us visited this site as a kit brewer or similar , it has truned may a happy kit brewer to a happy and poor AG brewer :lol: 


Batz


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## wee stu (18/2/05)

Batz said:


> Too true PM , not all want to do AG , kit brewers are cool , beware most of us visited this site as a kit brewer or similar , it has truned may a happy kit brewer to a happy and poor AG brewer :lol:
> 
> 
> Batz
> [post="45839"][/post]​



Amen to that Batz. I swore this year I was not, repeat not, going to make any further equipment purchases for the brury. Makes me wonder just where the $150 in the last two days went  

I almost rue the day I popped in here and asked a dull, boring and noobie question about bulk priming, or some such, for the kit and kilo brewer. However, my questions were politely answered and I was shown where to find more out. One of the great things about this forum is the wealth of knowledge which has been shared on it. If we can make it easier for people to access that knowledge quickly, then great. 

Kit makers, extract brewers, fermentation assistants, I don't think anyone is trying to scare you away - but best be afraid anyway, be very afraid, because the pull of dark side is strong indeed h34r: .

And, as for AG'ers being an elite group - bollocks! I'm one now


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## dane (18/2/05)

Ok the plan is that rather doing an immediate re-organisation, I think everyone should start pooling weather it is just getting together already pinned/good topics (or stuff from the factfile forum) or writing their oen FAQ's, so I can start organising them into FAQ's.

I will look at this tutorial mod, otherwise I will just make MEGA posts with all the info in them.

Once we have some nice FAQ"s and resources we can look at reorganising stuff.


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## Batz (18/2/05)

Not hard to see how you are spending all your free time Dane.

Cheers mate we all appreciate it :beerbang: 

Batz


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## deebee (18/2/05)

dane said:


> Ok the plan is that rather doing an immediate re-organisation, I think everyone should start pooling weather it is just getting together already pinned/good topics (or stuff from the factfile forum) or writing their oen FAQ's, so I can start organising them into FAQ's.
> [post="45849"][/post]​




Dane you are clearly hard at the ball. The emoticon has not yet been invented that can suitably convey my admiration.

OK Where do we send this stuff?


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## dane (18/2/05)

PM or Email.

At this stage if people want to just write (or point me to a particlar post that already has the info) I will collate it all and put it into one big FAQ post on that topic.

Maybe new brewing info is best at this stage, ie. glossary, equipment names and functions, basic brewing concepts, basic ingredients and affect on brew. Instructions on processes, ie. importance on cleanliness, yeast pitching/starts, hopping, racking, CC'ing, etc.

Kegging setups and advice etc. Bottling info.

I know the site probably has most of this info documented, but at thie moment I just don't have time to be searching and organising it. And as I have mentioned, it could be blind leading the blind, if I write all of this.

But I'm happy for people to send in info and I will collate and format it and get it online.

I have added the function of Auto PM new user on Reg, so I can point them there where it is online. 

Just send in whatever you have and I will take it


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## GMK (18/2/05)

Ok 

As another suggestion - what about a link to Brew clubs inyour state/area.

we could also go for some mentoring - ie we pick the group we are happy to mentor - ie Chiller with the AG (beginner) miniflocs, i am happy with kitsbits for Adelaide etc.

Will get flamed here but they started as AG Beginers. h34r:


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## dane (18/2/05)

@GMK

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&CODE=02&cat=13

There ya go!

Links can be added there - but we could get a sticky thread in the AHB meeting forums with links to Brew Clubs and discussions in there.


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## dicko (18/2/05)

deebee said:


> This forum is a well of information on every aspect of home brewing. The community it creates is priceless. F'rinstance, over the last couple of weeks I have had PMs from other members offering to lend me equipment, another referring me to an article on a beer I am planning to brew and another wanting to swap hop plants. Couldnt do it without AHB. *sniff*...
> 
> I love this forum very few wankers, just the odd meathead, a small number of clowns but 90% dedicated brewers happy to contribute to the community. Amongst them is a core of valuable members with high levels of expertise and even professional savvy. I am very grateful for this spirit of cooperation that has lifted my brewing above the basics. Lets not get too precious and cliquey about whos cool and whos not; its against the spirit of the forum.
> 
> ...



I have deliberately selected the quote function so that we all may read Dee bee's post again.
I personally agree with all he said and hope that those in doubt about the members on this site have another read.
Like Deebee, most of the regular members at some time have had PM's from others asking different questions re brewing methods or equipment and I am sure that with each enquiry there has been an honest and civil answer.
The original post by Batz only reflected that attitude from the more experienced to help those willing to learn and I know that he meant no more than that.
In SA I have been fortunate enough to attend many brew days and I have found a good cross cut of brewers and fermenters with varying degrees of experience but in the end each is prepared to help anyone who askes a genuine question.
I have met many brewers who regularly contribute to this forum and there advice is allways accurate and honest.
I lurked on this site for some time before I registered and when I think about it, it was so I could learn the lingo ( terminology) so as to not embarrass myself by asking what I thought might be dumb questions.
A section for FAQ's would be ideal so as to not jamb up the board with these enquiries.
I have since learnt that the only dumb question is the one you DON'T ask, or of course, reseach this site before you ask.
Top work to Dane for the new layout and honestly, if any aren't happy with the people who regularly contribute or the way the site operates, then the advice you need is generally available from your local HB shop.
Good luck with your hobby regardless of the level to which you choose to take it :beer: 

Cheers


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