# Do Crown Seals Need To Be Steralised?



## stewills (13/9/04)

hi.

i was just wondering if the crown seals need to be steralised?

i usually keep them in a cupboard so i assume that they are generally clean when i use them... first time i steralised them.. second brew i didn't ( turned out alright didnt have any off taste) third brew i was just wondering if i should.. should i steralise them in bleach or just pour boiling water over it?

thanks..


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## Batz (13/9/04)

I don't bottle to often anymore , but when I do I soak in bleach then rinse


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## Darren (13/9/04)

Hey Stewills,
It is always advisable to sanitise the lids. Try to use an iodine based or a quarternary ammonia sanitiser though. I found after long term storage bleached lids tend to rust quite rapidly
chhers
Darren


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## devilsaltarboy (13/9/04)

I use 70% ethanol to sanitise lids, no probs with infections yet.
Bottles are far the more likely source of infection in bottling though, particularly solid matter not cleaned out properly


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## Goat (13/9/04)

DAB - where do you get hold of ethanol ? From all reports it sounds like a very good sanitiser ....


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## Kai (13/9/04)

I do similar, I squirt mine with methylated spirits then rinse with boiling water.

Whether it's absolutely necessary I can't say, but I do it every time anyway.


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## jgriffin (13/9/04)

When i bottle, i take the left-over sanitiser (phos acid solution), and throw the lids in. Take each one out, give it a shake, and bottle.

This way they don't have a chance to get infected, and i'm sorta sanitising my hand each time i retrieve one.

I find as long as they are not in there for too long (like over 20 mins) they dry out and don't rust. If i leave them in for an hour or so they tend to rust up.


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## Jovial_Monk (13/9/04)

I di the same as jgriffin, icecream container or similar of Terminater solution, add the caps, take out, shake.

No muss, no fuss no rinsing etc


Jovial Monk


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## big d (13/9/04)

dont bottle that often but have used bleach solution,ortophosporic, nothing at all and lately bottling a few long necks didnt bother then remembered to sterilise when i found some caps with ants in them.
this time round just boiled them up and from what ive drunk so far the risk of infection is minimal.read no infection.   

cheers
big d


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## johnno (13/9/04)

Gotta say that the 6 stubbies per brew I usually bottle for my dad I just use them as is.
They have all been ok so far. I know because I usually end up drinking most of them when I'm around there.If I was going to cap a whole batch i might sanitise them.
My dad by the way reckons it shite beer. I keep telling him all the preservatives in megaswill have pickled his brain.

cheers


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## MCWB (14/9/04)

Same as jgriffin and JM: bottle caps at the bottom of my bottle washer filled with iodophor solution; drip dry on paper towel until ready to cap.


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## pint of lager (14/9/04)

Every surface that comes in contact with your beer should be cleaned and sanitised.

Caps come out of a machine, into big boxes, then repackaged by someone to end up on your brew bench. They should be already clean, but there is always the chance that the person who repackaged them coughed, touched them, the bench was dirty, a bird got into the warehouse where they were packed and crapped in the machine, etc etc etc.

Maybe 1 in a 100 has a bug on it, maybe 1 out of 10 bugs will infect your beer, that is 1 bottle in a 1,000 that will taste awful or explode. These are stab in the dark figures.

Use your favourite sanitiser, or boil in some water for a few minutes on the stove. When bottling, try and pop a cap on a bottle as soon as it is filled, no need to run it through the capper straight away, just place the cap over the opening and move onto filling the rest of the bottles.


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## Guest Lurker (14/9/04)

I reckon probably lower odds than guessed by POL. Just based on the fact that I have bottled about 3,000 bottles, never sterilised a cap, and havent developed gushers or nasty flavours that I could pick. Had one suspected slight lactic infection but that was the whole batch not individual bottles. But the logic still holds, even if the odds are lower, and you guys have now convinced me to add a quick cap sterilising step to bottling day.


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## deebee (14/9/04)

It only takes 20 seconds because on bottling day I already have handy:
a jug
ample sanitiser
a kettle of boiled water
a funnel

I put the caps in the jug and cover with sanitiser. Swish around, let stand for a few minutes while doing something else. Swish again.

Tip out the sanitiser using the funnel as a strainer. Caps back in jug and rinsed with boiled water. Tip out water using funnel as strainer. Done.


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## PostModern (14/9/04)

jgriffin said:


> When i bottle, i take the left-over sanitiser (phos acid solution), and throw the lids in. Take each one out, give it a shake, and bottle.
> 
> This way they don't have a chance to get infected, and i'm sorta sanitising my hand each time i retrieve one.
> 
> I find as long as they are not in there for too long (like over 20 mins) they dry out and don't rust. If i leave them in for an hour or so they tend to rust up.


 Exactly the process at PoMo's brauhaus (except I use iodophor).

I see no reason not to sanitise, low infection risk included. If I can halve my chances of an infection from bugger all risk to half of bugger all risk, and it costs nothing (in money or time), then why not? I mean you have to have your caps sitting in something when you're bottling, so why not have them sitting in a small tub with some sterilising solution and you get the bonus of sanitising your fingers at the same time.


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## frog71 (20/9/08)

hi all,
i have been brewing for about 18 years and have never sterilised my caps and have never detected an off beer. Maybe I have been lucky. However, it does make sense to add this to the process as everything else is sterilised. Why have a weak point in the process.


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## Tyred (20/9/08)

I normally sanitise all lids going onto my bottles. It's no great drama to use a jug with some starsan in it and leave the lids in there when I start bottling. I put a lid on every bottle immediately after it is filled.


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## reVoxAHB (20/9/08)

frog said:


> However, it does make sense to add this to the process as everything else is sterilised. Why have a weak point in the process.



exactly. and it's not a whole hell of a lot of extra work. 

when bottling, i always chuck my crown seals into a small jug of diluted iodophor for 10 mins. no need to rinse, just pull em out * cap. 

reVox


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## akroplane1 (20/9/08)

+1 Tyred, i don't use starsan or anything else, just boil caps in the microwave for 5 minutes or so then allow to cool


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## reVoxAHB (20/9/08)

akroplane1 said:


> +1 Tyred, i don't use starsan or anything else, just boil caps in the microwave for 5 minutes or so then allow to cool



Boil caps in the microwave? :blink:


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## akroplane1 (20/9/08)

reVox said:


> Boil caps in the microwave? :blink:


yes, so long as the caps are covered with water, no problems


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## Thirsty Boy (20/9/08)

Common misconception that you cant put metal in a microwave - you can. Just not _everything_ made of metal; and the microwave companies assumed (probably rightly) that the unwashed masses would screw it up and burn down their houses.

Back on topic - I normally counter pressure fill any bottles I want. I always sanitise everything that comes into contact with my beer so - an ice cream container full of the no-rinse sanitiser dejour (Starsan, Iodophor) and pull the cap out of the solution just before its shoved on the bottle. No shaking, I want a little sanitiser solution from the cap to get onto the rim of the bottle and take care of any germs that fell onto it while I was filling.

Probably get away without doing it, but it doesn't really take any extra time and better safe than sorry.

TB


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## HoppingMad (20/9/08)

Flamesuit is on! h34r: 

Sorry dudes, sterilising caps is an overcautious and unnecessary measure. 

Never sanitised the caps, never will, and have never had an issue with a bottle. Making work for yourself. Been brewing 14 years with no issues.

Read something on the subject last week and they pretty much said that if you are using caps straight from a bag, simply store the bag securely and you'll have no problems. They even went as far as to say that commercial brewers don't sanitise caps (this is a US book I'm quoting so must be US brewers they're talking about). Anyone who lends a hand at a local brewery might be able to set me straight on this though.

Hopper.


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## Zwickel (20/9/08)

HoppingMad said:


> Flamesuit is on! h34r:
> 
> Sorry dudes, sterilising caps is an overcautious and unnecessary measure.
> 
> ...


+1, I subscribe everything Hopping Mad said.


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## Brewtus (20/9/08)

reVox said:


> exactly. and it's not a whole hell of a lot of extra work.
> 
> when bottling, i always chuck my crown seals into a small jug of diluted iodophor for 10 mins. no need to rinse, just pull em out * cap.
> 
> reVox


+1 and for PET cap as well.


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## Carbonator (20/9/08)

akroplane1 said:


> +1 Tyred, i don't use starsan or anything else, just boil caps in the microwave for 5 minutes or so then allow to cool



What about the BPA? - http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/17/2367355.htm


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## Adamt (20/9/08)

Nothing in the crown seals that will leach BPA.


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## Cocko (20/9/08)

40+ batches - never have sterilised caps... no problems to date.

BUT now will, what little effort to avoid a weak link in the chain!


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## staggalee (21/9/08)

Bottling since 1990, never sanitised or boiled a cap yet. Never a problem.
Suppose for that little bit xtra tho, it could give peace of mind for anyone in doubt about it.

staggalee.


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## Luka (22/9/08)

Same here, never sterilised bottle caps and never had any issues with contamination. I don't think you have to be that cautious, seems a little OTT.


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## PostModern (22/9/08)

Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers? I haven't been inside a lid making plant, nor seen how they're packed, but I doubt they're sanitary.


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## therook (22/9/08)

PostModern said:


> Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers? I haven't been inside a lid making plant, nor seen how they're packed, but I doubt they're sanitary.




Po Mo, i may be a lucky one but i don't sanitise my bottles or caps, after drinking i give the bottles 3 rinses with cold water and drain them. Never ever had a problem

Rook


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## PostModern (22/9/08)

Just between you and me, I only sanitise my kegs about once a year. Rinsing the crud out with hot water is all I do.


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## Barramundi (22/9/08)

i usually just put my caps in a small container before bottling filled with iodophor solution and take them out as needed give them a shake to get the majority of the liquid off and put them on a bottle... thats as far as i go in terms of lid sanitation ...


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## Blackfish (22/9/08)

PostModern said:


> Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers? I haven't been inside a lid making plant, nor seen how they're packed, but I doubt they're sanitary.



FWIW I agree, I soak them, but there would have to be some paranoia on the part of any food packaging manufacturer about someone catching something from their product? I wonder what the instructions on a pack of caps say? anyone?


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## petesbrew (22/9/08)

As a slack-arsed precautionary measurement, I stick them in a small bowl of boiling water, and just pull them out one by one and cap them.
Note: Those little seals inside PET caps don't like boiling water.


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## Mitternacht Brauer (22/9/08)

petesbrew said:


> As a slack-arsed precautionary measurement, I stick them in a small bowl of boiling water, and just pull them out one by one and cap them.
> Note: Those little seals inside PET caps don't like boiling water.




I usually give them a swim in some no rinse just before capping . I haven't had any problems with this way of bottling .

My 2cents worth.


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## SJW (22/9/08)

> i was just wondering if the crown seals need to be steralised?



Yes


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## Thirsty Boy (22/9/08)

SJW said:


> Yes




Its as simple as that for me - I pulled open a new bag of seals just the other day and immediately sneezed directly on them.... so while I was always going to sanitise them ( I sanitise everything that touches my beer) I can personally narrow it down to a no arguments "YES I need to" at least till I have used all these ones up.  

TB


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## boingk (22/9/08)

I honestly just can't be assed. Between having to brew at 2am in my dorm common room, then shift the fermenter to my wardrobe - not to mention impending assignments/exams - and having to bottle in secret, barricaded in my room...sterilising caps just hasn't crossed my mind. Also, both of my 'off' batches (out of a total of 35+) had flawed fermentation and were a bottle-and-see affair, so I can't fault my caps in the slightest here. 

Just whack 'em on, she'll be right mate :icon_cheers: 

Of course, I do run the re-usable plastic caps for my PET bottles under vigorous hot water to de-befoul them before use again.

Cheers - boingk


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## drtomc (22/9/08)

PostModern said:


> Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers?



Good questions. First, the bacteria are on the lid, and they don't fly or crawl by themselves. So, if I ensure (by reasonably careful handling) that the beer in the bottle doesn't come into contact with the lid, it is unlikely to cause an infection. Now inevitably, between bottling and drinking, sometimes beer does come into contact with the lid, but usually not before the yeast in the bottle have had a good crack at the priming sugar, so the risk there is low.

The main risk, I guess, if from bacteria that can digest the ogliosaccharides (short chains of sugars) that the yeast cannot. I have had bottles explode, so I can't rule out the theory, but I'd back that I hadn't cleaned the bottles well enough in the first place - a much more likely scenario since I salvage most of my bottles from cafe/restaurant recycling bins.

T.


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## brendo (22/9/08)

Given that I usually have some no rinse around from sanitising the bottles, I reckon the extra few minutes to soak my bottle caps in a no rinse bath is well worth the time for limiting yet another source of possible infection.

For me it comes down to this - do i (potentially) waste an extra five minutes to sanitise my caps - or do I run the risk of several hours of work and weeks of fermenting going down the drain to save five minutes?

Paranoid or not - it is pretty much a no brainer for me - sanitising them can't hurt.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Brendo


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

SJW said:


> Yes



no.

staggalee.


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## HoppingMad (22/9/08)

PostModern said:


> Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers? I haven't been inside a lid making plant, nor seen how they're packed, but I doubt they're sanitary.



 Yup, sanitise my bottles thoroughly. Nope, still consider my bottles 100% sanitary with a cap from the bag.

I would actually think twice at boiling caps - that could actually degrade the seals. i.e next time you pop open a bottle - no fizz.

Also figure that water in the lids (unless dried properly) can be a magnet for crud, priming sugar and the like while bottling. So in my belief a clean, dry cap from a bag straight onto a clean bottle is the best and safest option. Besides, if it's a food grade item, it should be sanitary or it wouldn't be allowed to leave the factory. Rinsing then drying each cap? Too much handling in my book and you're making more room for infection simply by laying your hands all over them, moving them about and rinsing and drying them. 

As mentioned before, the reading I've done suggests that Commercial brewers seem happy to trust the cap makers, so why shouldn't I? 

Plus when you consider how sore your arms get from rinsing and capping bottles, and the info on hand says you don't need to - why would you bother really? To those with the energy left after a double batch to do the caps - I salute you, but I won't be signing up.

Hopper


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## Stuster (22/9/08)

staggalee said:


> no.



Yes. :icon_chickcheers: 

All caps into a sieve. Sieve into sink of sanitiser (which is there for the whole process). Leave until I need them. Shake a couple of times. Use. Is that too hard? :unsure:  

(Sure there's water in there, but it's no-rinse sanitiser, not going to be causing any infections, and at the most a couple of drops in a bottle so no taste issues.)


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

Stuster said:


> Yes. :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> All caps into a sieve. Sieve into sink of sanitiser (which is there for the whole process). Leave until I need them. Shake a couple of times. Use. Is that too hard? :unsure:



Not a point of being too hard.... more a point of unneccesery. {as evidenced by the thousands, yes thousands, of bottles I`ve capped with caps straight from packet with no probs.  

staggalee.


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## Zwickel (22/9/08)

Im just wondering what type of germ youre aiming to kill by sanitising the caps.
There is hardly any germ that can live under CO2 and alcohol environments. The most of nasty germs cannot live without oxygen.....and anyway, in a finished beer is almost no nutrition for any germ.
Im presupposing the beer has already finished the fermenting process at the time when get capped.

So what for should be the sanitising process?


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## geoffi (22/9/08)

I don't bother sanitising caps. I just try to keep them clean and dry. If I drop one on the floor I'll give it a squirt of iodophor.

I used to carefully sanitise bottles. Gave that up a while ago. Now I just make sure they are clean. A couple of good rinses after use and drain dry does the trick. Any that look a bit grotty get a swish with a bottle brush and another rinse. I haven't had any infections from this slack approach afaik.


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## geoffi (22/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> Im just wondering what type of germ youre aiming to kill by sanitising the caps.
> There is hardly any germ that can live under CO2 and alcohol environments. The most of nasty germs cannot live without oxygen.....and anyway, in a finished beer is almost no nutrition for any germ.
> Im presupposing the beer has already finished the fermenting process at the time when get capped.
> 
> So what for should be the sanitising process?



Eine gute Frage.

Beer is a pretty poor habitat for nasties that might inhabit bottles and caps.

As long as you're keeping things clean, you have won 99% of the battle, IMHO. The other 1% is optional.


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## buttersd70 (22/9/08)

personally, I sanatise _most _of the time in no rinse, but only cos I already have some made up and ready to go. It's really more of a habit for me, really. The fact of the matter is, as zwickel has said, most nasties dont like alcohol and co2. There have been a few times where I have not sanatized, particularly in cases where I have bottled from keg for going out, intending to consume within 24 hours, but have ended up with extras that have sometimes sat for several weeks, with no ill effects.
Charlie talley, in his basicbrewing interview, concedes that cleaning is much more necessary than sanatising, and that sanitising is really only an "insurance policy that your cleaning is up to scratch" (his words, not mine). Makes sense, when you think about it. But, when you compare risk vs reward, particularly if bottling a full batch, why not take the extra 60 seconds out of your life to no rinse the caps? I'm a tight bastard, but not that tight.
Just my 2c.


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

Well, looks like another conundrum put to rest........ sanitising caps is needless.
Altho I would be interested in any replies to Zwickel`s input to support their case.

staggalee.


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## Zwickel (22/9/08)

Im believing that a clean and dry surface carries less nasties than a freshly sanitised one.

In hospitals over here they do not disinfect any surface anymore. They found out that intensive use of sanitiser leads just to the opposite effect. 
Any dry and clean, Im emphasizing *clean*, surface carries hardly any nasty germs. 

just my two cent


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## Darren (22/9/08)

Interesting Zwickel,

but I think that you are over simplifying the situation in a hospital 8). My experience says that most hospital CLEANERS are also very good SANITISERS (just cant put them in your beer 8>). Also, I bet there is a hell-of-a-lot of sanitising going on in rooms with MRSA and VRE in Germany.

I do agree that not sanitising beer caps is probably ok, UNLESS they have been sitting in the back shed for 3 months getting covered in dust (and wild yeast).

For the three seconds it takes to sanitise a batch of lids, I can't see why you would not do it!!

cheers

Darren


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## Back Yard Brewer (22/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> Im just wondering what type of germ youre aiming to kill by sanitising the caps.
> There is hardly any germ that can live under CO2 and alcohol environments. The most of nasty germs cannot live without oxygen.....and anyway, in a finished beer is almost no nutrition for any germ.
> Im presupposing the beer has already finished the fermenting process at the time when get capped.
> 
> So what for should be the sanitising process?




I would have to agree. We do a lot of tirage at work and I can tell you first hand that a box is opened be it started or new and the caps just thrown into the capper. If any caps are left at the end they are either left in the hopper or put back into the box. Not so much as a glimpse of sanitiser.

Yes Darren it may only take a few minutes to sanitise but its just one job I can't be buggered doing. By all means sanitise but me for one I don't, fill the bottle and bang on the lid. No problems over the last 5yrs or so.

BYB


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## Zwickel (22/9/08)

Darren said:


> but I think that you are over simplifying the situation in a hospital 8).


no Darren, not at all, Im only working in a hospital since Ive finished school. We do not talk about MRSA or things like that, just about the number of germs per square cm on a dry and clean surface. I repeat again, I think that you have more germs at the surface after you have freshly sanitized it than if you kept it clean and dry.
If you are thinking that after sanitizing the surfaces would be free of any germs, then you are very wrong.

btw. just tell me by name which germs you are fighting against.



> For the three seconds it takes to sanitise a batch of lids, I can't see why you would not do it!!



Darren, I do not know any sanitiser that is able to do its work within three seconds.

okay, if you need to calm down your conscience, then do it.

we are just arguing about peanuts, each to theire own.


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## daemon (22/9/08)

I don't sanitise new caps, but I do if I'm reusing lids from the PET bottles. Reading through this thread and it's making me think about it, I've already got the no-rinse made up anyway! The risk is probably very low, but it also means one less thing to worry about if there are problems.


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## kook (22/9/08)

I sanitise my lids - but only because I've seen how some wholesalers handle them when repackaging for homebrew retailers.

The commercial breweries receiving their lids probably buy them in 1000's bulk from the manufacturer, not from a HBS.

I agree though - if you know your lids are from a clean source, there is probably little to worry about.


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## microbe (22/9/08)

buttersd70 said:


> personally, I sanatise _most _of the time in no rinse, but only cos I already have some made up and ready to go. It's really more of a habit for me, really. ~snip~


Ditto

microbe


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## Darren (22/9/08)

Zwickel,

I have been a microbiologist for the last 20+ years and assisted in many surgical procedures. I assure you that cleaning is just the first stage of sanitation. The organisms that you are referring to in a hospital environment are generally water borne and NOT beer spoilage "germs". If "you" do not talk about MSRA or VRE I hope your infection control people do.

The "germ" we are removing from a bottle cap would be acetobacter and/or Saccromyces sp (wild yeast) that found its way onto the cap possibly after being "packed" into their little bags in a HB shop (right next to the grain mill) or those lids sitting in half open bags for months between brews in the back shed.

The "three seconds" refers to: Add water and sanitiser to "beaker". Pour in lids. Bottle as usual. Couldn't be easier!!

cheers

Darren

PS: Peanuts we are talking about indeed, but $5 says you have a wet fermenter when you drain your boiler!!


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## Zwickel (22/9/08)

Darren, nice to talk to a microbiologist, so I do not need to explain many facts.

once again, I do not talk about hospital specific germs, we just talk about germs on a surface.

As you know, Acetobacter is an aerobier, means cannot live without oxygen, so what?
wild yeast has nothing to grow at, since there is no nutrition in the beer anymore.

so what else is dangerous to the beer?


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## goatherder (22/9/08)

I believe wild yeasts can eat dextrins which are left behind by the Saccromyces fermentation. Brettanomyces for example will do this.


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## domonsura (22/9/08)

I sanitise caps, always have. 

Just seems to me that all surfaces you can expect to have contact with the beer should receive the same attention. Remember, we're aware that we aren't sterilising, just sanitising. In doing so we're just trying to knock down the population of undesirable organisms to a point where our yeasts have the upper hand.

Leaving one surface un-sanitised while sanitising the bottle to me seems to defeat the purpose - if you're not going to sanitise the caps, why bother to sanitise the bottles? or the fermenter? or anything else for that matter? Because experience _at our level of things_ has taught us that it gives us a higher chance of better results.
Bottling in commercial environments in my opinion is not a suitable comparison, simply because the majority are food production environments where other attention has been shown to HACCP guidelines if for no other reason but to protect profit margins.......I have (and I'm sure that others have) seen exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't mean that we should be blanketly recommending taking shortcuts with sanitation.......


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## Darren (22/9/08)

Zwickel,

Wild yeast will chomp away to 1.000 or lower just like champaigne yeast. Plenty of nutrients and air in freshly primed beer!!

Clean caps out of the factory, no problems. Re-packaged caps or old stock around the home you are probably asking for trouble.

As stated before, the effort is minimal!!

cheers

darren

PS: You do freshly sanitise your fermenter prior to adding wort?


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## PostModern (22/9/08)

**WARNING** The following is anecdotal only and should not be included as evidence **WARNING**

I can't name the organisms, but I have seen some bottles in a batch go boom or gush to be followed with an infected flavour and others from the same batch that are clean and fine. Obviously the infection was in the bottle, not the whole batch.


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

For me, the bottom line is this- after bottling 10,000 bottles plus over 18 years without sanitising one cap and never a problem, somehow I doubt I`ll be changing anything. If things go wrong I`ll let you know but don`t hold your breath.  

staggalee.


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## Darren (22/9/08)

Stagga,

You ever had a bad beer?

cheers

Darren


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## Zwickel (22/9/08)

Darren said:


> Zwickel,
> 
> Wild yeast will chomp away to 1.000 or lower just like champaigne yeast. Plenty of nutrients and air in freshly primed beer!!
> 
> ...


Darren, we are turning around and around.

Ive said, the caps have to be dry and clean, then there is hardly any nasty germ on it.

....and no, I never sanitize anything of my gear, just clean it.


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

Darren said:


> Stagga,
> 
> You ever had a bad beer?
> 
> ...


Made a few ordinary ones but only ever one infection- caused by skimming a Muntons long ago.
Unless....shit, you don`t think all my beers have been infected for 18 years and I didn`t know? :huh: 
Hhmm....might have to look at sanitising those caps...

staggalee.


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## Darren (22/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> ....and no, I never sanitize anything of my gear, just clean it.




What is your magic ingredient (cleaner)

cheers

darren


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## 3G (22/9/08)

A properly washed surface with agitation and warm water will kill or remove almost all the germs. I have seen many homebrewers (generally entry level brewers) fill and soak fermenters etc and expect that to do the job. Agitation and scrubbing (with out scratching) is vital and will probably do for 99.9% of the time. For the other .1% i use a no rinse sanitiser for safety.


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## SJW (22/9/08)

I am amazed that anyone would go to all the trouble and expense of doing a brew, AG or any other, and not sanatise your caps (if you are bottling) Thats just crazy talk. You would or should have a jug of Iodophor or similar made up to sanatise the bottoles and bottle filler why not use it just to be sure? I am not micro biological engineer :blink: but when I used to bottle I am sure I never got and infection from a cap....even if it was possible.
But it makes for a great arrgument though.

Steve


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

SJW said:


> I am amazed that anyone would go to all the trouble and expense of doing a brew, AG or any other, and not sanatise your caps (if you are bottling) Thats just crazy talk. You would or should have a jug of Iodophor or similar made up to sanatise the bottoles and bottle filler why not use it just to be sure? I am not micro biological engineer :blink: but when I used to bottle I am sure I never got and infection from a cap....even if it was possible.
> But it makes for a great arrgument though.
> 
> Steve



and that`s the whole point-if I`ve bottled 10,000 plus without doing it and no probs. why would I change things?

staggalee.


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## Thirsty Boy (22/9/08)

I just cant understand the fuss about sanitising them - as a couple of people have said, it takes a total of about 3 seconds.

pour lids into bowl - pour sanitiser into bowl. done.

For the difference between assuming and _knowing_ that your lids are at least as sanitary as the rest of your gear, I hardly see that as too high a price in effort to make. It just seems like an area where something _could_ go wrong, that is so damn easy to fix.

Zwickel - your advice runs counter to that of the manufacturers of a few different sanitisers (sure they have a vested interest in selling you some) but their advice with a no rinse sanitiser is to work with wet surfaces - if the surface is wet with sanitiser, then it is as sanitary as it can get. Sanitisers that need to be rinsed off are pointless anyway, and they are the only ones where your clean and dry is better than wet theory holds true.

What germs am I guarding against... don't know, don't care. Lets just say any of them. from yeast floating around on dust particles to the skin cell that falls off my finger while I am fishing around in a bowl for the cap

Oh and the commercial breweries not using sanitised caps - wouldn't most of them be using a pasteurizer after bottling anyway? And as for smaller operations who don't pasteurize - well, a number of the bottling machines I have seen and or studied, have a wee bath that the lids soak in before being dragged out by a magnet and fed to the capping point - I believe that little bath contains sanitiser. So at the very least "some" commercial breweries believe its worth the 10seconds it must take them to fill up that little bath with sanitiser before they dump in the caps.

Once again its one of those things where I think its better to play for saftey. Better to sanitise when you don't need to, than to not sanitise when you do. The worst it can possibly be if you do it, is a minuscule waste of effort - better that than a tragic waste of beer.


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## Darren (22/9/08)

staggalee said:


> and that`s the whole point-if I`ve bottled 10,000 plus without doing it and no probs. why would I change things?
> 
> staggalee.



If you have really done that many bottles and claim to have only one batch infected thats ~1/500. I reckon you cant taste or dont care whether it is infected  <_< 

cheers

Darren


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## drtomc (22/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I just cant understand the fuss about sanitising them - as a couple of people have said, it takes a total of about 3 seconds.



I had a bunch of lids go rusty. Not inside where the beer is [potentially] in contact, but it did put me off wetting them.

T.


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## Tony (22/9/08)

staggalee said:


> For me, the bottom line is this- after bottling 10,000 bottles plus over 18 years without sanitising one cap and never a problem, somehow I doubt I`ll be changing anything. If things go wrong I`ll let you know but don`t hold your breath.



+1 but less bottles and time that stagga.

keep them in a clean plastic bag, sealed up and free of dirt and dust ect and they will be fine.

If your getting infections from your new bottle caps you have real REAL major problems!

cheers


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

Darren said:


> If you have really done that many bottles and claim to have only one batch infected thats ~1/500. I reckon you cant taste or dont care whether it is infected  <_<
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



LOL....like I give 2 bob for what you reckon. You`re talking shit :icon_cheers: 

staggalee.


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## HoppingMad (22/9/08)

Here's the text I was referring to. Not microbiology but common sense from someone who has been a brewing columnist for 11 years.


Ashton Lewis, Columnist for Brew Your Own Magazine writes in his book "Home Brewer's Answer Book":


Q. Do you have to sanitize bottle caps before using them?

A. Many brewers feel the need to boil their caps to sanitize them before bottling. In my opinion, this step is overly cautious if you are using clean caps that come from a plastic bag. Commercial brewers do not sanitize caps and rely on a clean supply of clean caps to mitigate the potential of contaminating beer with stuff from the cap. Some crowns have liners in them that scavenge oxygen; moisture activates the substance in the liner. If you use this type of crown, you do not want to get it wet before use, as moisture will render the special liner useless.

Nuff said. Now leave poor Zwickel alone. He was agreeing with me (probably has read the same sensible stuff as I have)! Reckon it's time for a poll on this, only way we're going to resolve it!

Hopper.


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## staggalee (22/9/08)

game, set and match. :lol: 

staggalee.


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## Tony (22/9/08)

Maybe we should add "Darren V's the no cap steralisers" to that other poll


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## Adamt (22/9/08)

Polls are opinionated and don't necessarily yield a correct answer.

I, like others on this thread, generally throw my caps in a bowl of no-rinse out of habit. I have used caps fresh from a new packet without sanitising and would do it if I weren't in the habit.


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## Thirsty Boy (22/9/08)

well I must have imagined the sanitiser baths on those bottling machines then ... I should get my eyes checked

But there is no need for a poll, Ashton Lewis answered the question indeed - its over cautious to sanitise your caps.

Yep it is - and I intend to keep on being overcautious with every single thing about my brewing. So over cautious people will sanitise them and the penalty they will pay is several seconds of their life. Less cautious (but obviously not unreasonably so) brewers wont sanitise them and trade those few second for a minute chance of infection.

Depends on what kind of a person you are


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## Tyred (22/9/08)

stewills said:


> hi.
> 
> i was just wondering if the crown seals need to be steralised?
> 
> ...



Stewills.

Going back to the original question. Caps do not need to be sterilized. 

There is, of course, a difference between sterilize and sanitize.

Whether or not you sanitize them is a different matter and obviously there are different views on this.

It's your brew, it's your brewing technique, so you can decide on what you do.


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## Zwickel (22/9/08)

Darren said:


> What is your magic ingredient (cleaner)
> 
> cheers
> 
> darren


nothing magic Darren, just hot caustic soda, followed by hot citric acid, thats the ducks nuts


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## SJW (22/9/08)

In a homebrew situation it would be almost imposible to steralize anything


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## Adamt (22/9/08)

But somewhat easier to sterilise.


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## Brewtus (22/9/08)

I sanitize but mostly because I use mostly reused soft drink caps to identify batches and cap about six stubbies to take to places where I don't wont to bring bottles back so throwing the crown seals in with the rest is easy. If it was all glass I probably would not bother. It is all risk management, waste a few moments and reduce the risk or take the risk. From the evidence here, it seems the risk is fairly low if you don't dunk.


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## PostModern (22/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> nothing magic Darren, just hot caustic soda, followed by hot citric acid, thats the ducks nuts



LOL. Hot caustic is all the non-sanitiser uses. There you go


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## drtomc (23/9/08)

HoppingMad said:


> Reckon it's time for a poll on this, only way we're going to resolve it!



Ah, spoken like a true Wikian - long live the democratization of truth. 

I'd say the anecdotal evidence is that it doesn't make a *big* difference - if it did there'd be exploding bottles all over the country, or indeed, the planet. On the other hand, if sanitizing your caps helps you to relax, not worry, and have homebrews, then that's great! Otherwise just relax, not worry, and have the homebrew.

T.


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## Back Yard Brewer (23/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I just cant understand the fuss about sanitising them -




The original post way, way, way back was actually about sterilising. Sanatising and sterilising are two completely different things for which I know Darren would have to agree  

BYB


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## Darren (23/9/08)

BYB,

Well sterilisation would be the ultimate wouldn't it?? I have always been happy to sanitise my lids when I have bottled.

Just for the record, if any of you get a chance to taste beers entered at a HB comp you will be surprised how many beers entered are actually badly infected (estimate 1/10).

Now whether this happens in the bottle or some people cannot taste when their beers are infected I don't know. 

Something to to think about.

cheers

Darren


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## petesbrew (23/9/08)

5 pages already!
Amazing, considering we all pretty much know the answer, depending on whether we could be arsed or not.


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## kook (23/9/08)

staggalee said:


> For me, the bottom line is this- after bottling 10,000 bottles plus over 18 years without sanitising one cap and never a problem, somehow I doubt I`ll be changing anything. If things go wrong I`ll let you know but don`t hold your breath.
> 
> staggalee.



I've got to be honest - this amazes me when I hear brewers have been going for 18 years without a single bottle problem, regardless of their sanitation regime. 

I can understand how large breweries do it (new bottles & strong sanitisers), but how have you managed it? 

Infections manifest themselves in so many different ways, subtle flavour changes that in many cases people don't notice or presume it was something to do with that particular brew. So how do you do it? I'm presuming you use new bottles for every brew, but how are you sanitising them? Heat? Acid?


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## Batz (23/9/08)

Do Crown Seals Need To Be Sterilized?

94 posts ! And I believe we all agree 'it's up to you'

I don't bottle very often anyone but when I did I sterilized my caps,and any bottling I do in the future I'll sterilize the caps as well.I does seem I could miss this step but hey,I sterilize my caps..and...

No chill
Don't skim
Make starters
Don't under let
use a braid manifold
filter sometimes
use polyclar sometimes
mash on the cooler side
keg
use a Valley Mill
use rain water

etc etc etc
Brewing a personal thing isn't it?

Batz


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## sponge (23/9/08)

Batz said:


> 94 posts ! And I believe we all agree 'it's up to you'
> 
> .....
> 
> Brewing a personal thing isn't it?



Hit the nail on the head lad


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## Weizguy (23/9/08)

Darren said:


> QUOTE (Zwickel @ Sep 22 2008, 08:38 PM) *
> _....and no, I never sanitize anything of my gear, just clean it.
> _
> What is your magic ingredient (cleaner)
> ...


Onya, Darren. I'm with you on this one. I have a suspicion that Zwickel's climate and microflora are different to ours in Oz, as well as the factors already mentioned. This is a fact, actually and not an opinion.

At my house, I have a rampant Acetobacter spp. that jumps into any beer that's left open and/or unattended for any short span of time.
I also know for a fact that my lhbs re-packages bottle caps from a package of about 10,000 (as I bought a parcel of 1000 recently). The environment at any lhbs is likely to contain dust from bugs that like to eat malt, as well as lacto bacteria from grain husks being milled (unless your lhbs doesn't stock grain, which is possible for small K&K retailers).

For me, it comes down to "common sense". That of course, means my own common sense, based on what I know about the environment in which my lids/caps are packaged. When bottling, I usually count my caps into a small sauce-pan or bowl and some just-boiled water is poured on top, and they sit until the water is cool enough to retrieve the caps, one by one, as they are placed onto bottles.

What this means, for those that need it spelled out for them (and many do...), is that you should use your own mind/brain to investigate what works for you in the environment in which you perform your beer packaging.

DO NOT rely on someone else's opinion. THINK for yourself, please!!!

This has been another Seth testimonial, for those who may be too lazy to think.

Oh, and regarding spelling things out..."steralising"?. Come on. Someone needs to use an online spell checker. At least an "s" was used in the middle of the word, instead of a "z". Also, that's a zed, not a zee.

As for bad/contaminated beer being entered into competitions, I have to agree that some people believe that homebrew always tastes that way. That's what makes it homebrew. Well, maybe it is, and that's why my hand-crafted beer is not homebrew. Same scale, better flavour. :lol: 

BTW, Tony, with your recent series of bad beer, do you expect us to believe that none of your bottled beer has ever been contaminated. How can you tell? That comment is misleading, in the extreme


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## staggalee (23/9/08)

kook said:


> I've got to be honest - this amazes me when I hear brewers have been going for 18 years without a single bottle problem, regardless of their sanitation regime.
> So how do you do it? I'm presuming you use new bottles for every brew, but how are you sanitising them? Heat? Acid?



When I first started, I had 5 fermenters going at once, thus 25 gallons at a time, so I aquired hundreds of the old style heavy xxxx tallies, and still using them today.
As for sanitising prior to bottling, Tony {with the Colgate smile} told us years ago on Grumpy`s------ boil 2 jugs of water, line your bottles up and pour a few inches of boiled water into each, swirl and discard.
This assumes of course your bottles are clean to start with. Mine always are. Soon as they`re empty, rinsed 3 times under hot tap, onto bottle tree to drain, once dry a 50 mill. square of alfoil crimped over neck and into milk crate till bottling day.
Too easy.
{Thanks again Tony :beerbang: }

staggalee.


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## sinkas (23/9/08)

frog said:


> hi all,
> i have been brewing for about 18 years and have never sterilised my caps and have never detected an off beer. Maybe I have been lucky. However, it does make sense to add this to the process as everything else is sterilised. Why have a weak point in the process.




Maybe they were all off? :blink:


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## trevc (23/9/08)

I've seen crown seal packaging that says to "Always sanitise caps before bottling". Not sure if the LHBS put it there, or what.

It's an easy step, and I like to do anything I can to look after my beer.


Edit: My current pack says "STERILIZE BEFORE USE". Funny


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## drtomc (23/9/08)

Looks like this thread belongs not in "The Common Ground" but in "The Uncommon Ground", or possibly in "The Common Rant". 

T.


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## kabooby (23/9/08)

staggalee said:


> When I first started, I had 5 fermenters going at once, thus 25 gallons at a time, so I aquired hundreds of the old style heavy xxxx tallies, and still using them today.
> As for sanitising prior to bottling, Tony {with the Colgate smile} told us years ago on Grumpy`s------ boil 2 jugs of water, line your bottles up and pour a few inches of boiled water into each, swirl and discard.
> This assumes of course your bottles are clean to start with. Mine always are. Soon as they`re empty, rinsed 3 times under hot tap, onto bottle tree to drain, once dry a 50 mill. square of alfoil crimped over neck and into milk crate till bottling day.
> Too easy.
> ...



Hey Staggalee,

If this is your method I can almost guarantee that there are deposits in the bottle that rinsing will not get rid of. Try getting some caustic or sodium percobonate in the bottle and fill it with boiling water. Let it sit for a while and watch the colour of the foam coming out the top of the bottle. This should be bright white. If its not than it is lifting deposits out of the bottle.

Kabooby


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## Stuster (23/9/08)

kabooby said:


> If this is your method I can almost guarantee that there are deposits in the bottle that rinsing will not get rid of.



+1.

I certainly found that over time bottles that were just rinsed out exactly as you describe stagga would build up layers of crud. I now go to the extremes of napisan solution to clean my bottles. The difference is clear to me.


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## staggalee (23/9/08)

ok, you`ve both convinced me to be a little less tardy.  

staggalee.


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## Carbonator (23/9/08)

I would like to add that new crown seals are plastic coated inside (BPA???) and when they are immersed in steriliser for the hour it takes to bottle, they wont suffer. After installing the seal on your bottles, straight out of the solution, the outside will dry and since the plastic is sealing the top, the only short-term rust will be outside the sealed area. (just like commercial bottled beer that has has condensation under the seals). Just have a rag ready to wip off the thread before drinking/


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## Tony (23/9/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> BTW, Tony, with your recent series of bad beer, do you expect us to believe that none of your bottled beer has ever been contaminated. How can you tell? That comment is misleading, in the extreme



They went bad in the fermenter and i tracked the problems to things like problems in the rubber bung of my starter vessel, cavities in a fermenter holding nasties, leaking imersion chiller and pool water. 

yeah my comment was a bit off (excuse the pun)...... more poorly thought out than misleading. I bow down and appolagise to the all knowing perfect ones!

I will re-submit my comment as.......... before my recent spat of pre bottle infections, i have not had beer go off in the bottle.

But i will never say it wont happen because a certain procedure works for me.

I even did an experiment once with a pale light flavoured 4.5% pilsner. I bottled it into a bottle with a patch of mold about half the size of a 5c piece crowing on the inside of the bottle. I left it for 3 months and did a side by side and there was no difference. The mound was white and dead on the bottom.

Im sure Darren and others will say there are other germs that could kill my beer but i dont really care any more. Im all burnt out on germs. along with bullshit arguments on here about crap.......... admit it folks..... this is all bullshit!

like i said............. if your beers are getting infected from new clean bottle caps you have big problems.

I just love how so many think because they do something and believe its right............. it is right.

People need to realise that everyone is different, everyones brewing systems, conditions, techniques are different. And everyones standards and tastes are different. I think we all brew to our own standards. We make beer that is to an acceptable standard or better, to fill our consumption wants and needs.

If thats a coopers lager with a kg of dex, so be it, if its a decoction mashed AG thats lagered for 6 months, so be it. If its either with a slight bit of funk that the consumer cant really detect or couldn'r give a shit about, so be it.

If you want to clean your caps, clean them, if you dont want to...... dont!

and move on!


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## Weizguy (23/9/08)

...but would U sanitise a re-used commercial twist-top. ...Or just wash, or even just dry it out before re-use. Seriously.

Just drank a beer from the NSW comp left-over (next best beers). It re-used a commercial crown seal cap.
Compliments to the beer maker. There will a Witbier in your near future, from my current batch (with WLP410 - Wit II), my lazy fave. Never used Hoegaarden yeast, and probably never will.

Rambling...back on topic... I'd like to know why these Crown Seals need to be sterilised. Are they breeding rampantly and eating the world's fish supply?


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## Tony (23/9/08)

When i started brewing i resued caps..... both comercial and homebrew and yes i steralised them.

I stoped when some showed signs of rust from being wet and soaled in chemicals. I stopped re-using caps very soon into my brewing days and used new caps only after that

I keep them sealed and clean. 

If i drop one on the ground and it disapears under the work bench to god knows what, i chuck it in the bin and get another.

But i dont clean, sanatise or staralise them.

I have no problem with people doing this to their caps........ nothing wrong with being cautious but just because i dont believe its a necessary step in the process doesnt mean its right. same goes for the other side of the argument


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## Muggus (23/9/08)

I've found my caps are more than likely to become rusted and I have to chuck out way more than I plan when I do sterilise them before hand.
These days I just keep them in an airtight container when not using them. No cleaning of any sort, and 95+ bottled batches later still no sign of bottle related infection.


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## dr K (23/9/08)

Its not just restricted to home brewing..look at at all the products that are being pushed (usually along the "its a mothers role to protect her nest" line), cleaning cloths with built in bacteriacides, blasted purse size hand cleaners from a major detox name.
A clean surface is far less likely to harbour bacteria, funghi,spores and such,no a clean surface it is not a bacterial,fungal, sporic repellant and yes no doubt you can get transient, itinerant even, bacteria and such on them.
Sanitising the tops (Crown or Bench) will certainly kill any of these apparent visitors but in most cases so will the environment into which they are about to be cast.
Finished beer is a fermented product, just like salami and just like salami it is a very poor environment for the growth of bacteria, again just like salami if the infection develops during the fermentation process then you are in trouble, cept with salami it may kill you.
If you are going to get an infection you are going to get it between the kettle outlet and the fermentor outlet, and this is why sanitation in preparation for and during the fermentation process is critical, either side, apart from obvious things like cleanliness its just good practise.
Back to the Housewife..funny you know, about the best thing you can do to reduce infection is wash your hands with soap and water, like we used to.

K


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## Stuster (23/9/08)

So let me get this straight, drK. You're saying we should wash the bottle caps with soap and water. :icon_chickcheers:


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## kook (23/9/08)

Stuster said:


> So let me get this straight, drK. You're saying we should wash the bottle caps with soap and water. :icon_chickcheers:



Liquid or Bar? :lol:


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## Screwtop (23/9/08)

SJW said:


> Yes




Glad you stepped up and answered for me Bro :lol:" Have been looking at this thread in the line up but not opened it till tonight, thinking along the same lines.

Screwy


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## Stuster (23/9/08)

kook said:


> Liquid or Bar?



:lol: 

But of course, only one of those choices makes any sense. The other one is just crazy talk, as I'm sure you'd agree.


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## staggalee (24/9/08)

The funniest part of some threads is when someone vents and says they`re bullshit, does a bit of a song and dance and advises the posters to move on  
But the juggernaught just keeps going like no one heard, like some big ol steamroller that`s got the throttle out and no one at the wheel. :lol: 
But then my sense of humour might be different. {I was always a fan of Spy vs. Spy in M ad magazine}  

staggalee.


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## HoppingMad (24/9/08)

I feel sorry for Stewills who opened up this topic. 

Poor fella must be right well confused after this many pages of debate! :lol:


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## staggalee (24/9/08)

what was the original question anyway?
It`s buried in there somewhere. :huh: 

staggalee.


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## SJW (24/9/08)

> hi.
> 
> i was just wondering if the crown seals need to be steralised?
> 
> ...



I bet your glad you asked this question!
2 tips for future postings.
1/ Ask a simple question and get a thousand different answers.
2/ There is no such thing as a simple question.

Steve


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## staggalee (24/9/08)

HoppingMad said:


> I feel sorry for Stewills who opened up this topic.
> 
> Poor fella must be right well confused after this many pages of debate! :lol:



Less the 2 posts pulled by the mods. this morning.
That`s a couple he won`t have to read.  

staggalee.


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## SJW (24/9/08)

Its funny, the amount of debate that can be generated by something that is so simple. Takes me back to the NO CHILL METHOD and the ROSS METHOD OF FORCE CARBONATING. Like so many things its up to the brewer as to what method he uses. 
What anoys me is when people post there way of doing things as if its the only way or the only correct way.
IMO Brewing good beer consistantly is about mimising risk. Minimising risk of infection and if your happy to take short cuts and still make great beer......well more fool us who don't.


Steve


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## PostModern (24/9/08)

dr K said:


> about the best thing you can do to reduce infection is wash your hands with soap and water, like we used to.



Ah, but beer does not have an immune system!


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