# Hitting the wall



## azztech (23/2/16)

Well I'm beginning to understand why I see so many HB folk selling their gear on Gumtree...

I'm up to my seventh brew and I've had really mixed results. Some brews taste pretty awful, some taste okay but have a really low ABV and only two batches are good all round. Not a great batting average when 50% of my motivation to get into brewing was a cost saving over the carton or so commercial beers I was drinking per week. 

I have all the right gear (for extract) and haven't skimped at all (insert 'all the gear and no idea' joke here). I can only put it down to average-to-dud recipes and general inexperience.

My original vision of having a storeroom full of beer i'd love, is fading. When I looked in there last night, I was thinking "how do I get rid of all this mediocre beer - don't really want to drink it".

So tell me, does everyone hit the wall? If you press on, chew your way through your shitty beers, do you one day get a few brews down to a fine art and it's all worth it?

Lend me your inspiration, chaps


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## mxd (23/2/16)

you need to figure out where your problem is. A great percentage of my initial problems were fermenting.

Get a fresh wort kit, (ideally from a LHBS that has a sample of it on tap) then ferment that out. 
If that works out the same, then it may be your recipe.

get jamils book for 80 classic styles then use that.

Join a brew club or enter into comps to get feed back as there may be other issues.


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## wobbly (23/2/16)

Give some indication of your process such as fermentation temperature, ingredients, recipe details, how you manage hop additions, water treatment to get rid of chlorine and chloramines etc

You say a couple were "good all round" what was different about those to the other five or so

Have you tried fermenting a "fresh Wort Kit" to see what results you get from that

See of you can get someone like BribeG to chip in with some advise

Cheers

Wobbly


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## siege (23/2/16)

Really solid advice above. 

But if it's solidarity you're after: YES. I'm sure most of us have suffered from "why is all my beer shit" 

In addition to my first two small batches that were rubbish because I didn't control ferment temp, I've had a full 23L that I just hated the taste of, and two that were sour. And not in a good way. 

It was a lot of beer to tip put and hours to bottle it and it hurt at the time but it's pretty easy to get over it when you do start getting really solid beers.

Just stick with it. (but also follow troubleshooting advice. Everyone can always improve something in their process)


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## hellbent (23/2/16)

_"I have all the right gear (for extract) and haven't skimped at all (insert 'all the gear and no idea' joke here). I can only put it down to average-to-dud recipes and general inexperience."_

I also agree with mxd on getting a fresh wort kit from your local HB shop and see how that goes.
Also as it seems extracts are your go maybe jazz them up by adding a few hops etc. or maybe even try AG (BIAB) brewing, it's cheap enough to set up and once you get the process mastered you will find a huge difference in your beer in both head and taste.

Sometimes people think their beer is crap, they may have been expecting something very similar to a wqonderful boutique beer produced from a mini brewery they once tasted. Well let me tell you that just doesn't happen that often, there is a bloody lot of "mongrel" beer out there being brewed by people who swear it's the best beer ever made and backed up by his desperate mates who turn up to help empty his "free" keg then piss in his pocket saying how wonderful the beer was.

Don't give up mate just hang in and keep trying and ask lots of questions


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## Tahoose (23/2/16)

Read, read and read some more. 

It takes a while but it's like any hobby you need to arm your self with the knowledge and inevitably have a few ****-ups to learn from. 

If you have a question on something, use the forum search first and most likely the question has been asked before. If not, ask away. 

The great thing about this forum, and I've been on a few. Generally people are here to share experiences promote ideas and everybody wants to be drinking quality beer. 

I'd be going with a tried and tested recipe, such as dr smurtos golden ale. This can be done in the kit/extract form or as a grain mash. Use a neutral yeast and get a handle on you fermentation temperature. Temperature of the the beer after it has been bottled is important also. 

See how you go with that then reassess.

Good luck!!


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/2/16)

What recipe are you using ?

What are you trying too brew ?

No1 Golden Rule for new brewers

Use a simple recipe

Use some base liquid malt, some steeped Xtal ( about 500gm ) and 1 or 2 hops to 30-35 IBU ( POR early & SAAZ late go very well )

This will give you a nice simple Pale Ale and it will be nice and clean in flavour which you can learn from. Its pretty hard to screw it up

Practice will be your friend

And dont chase ABV. That will come when you get things right


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## Blind Dog (23/2/16)

If your ingredients are fresh, your technique is sound, you have a rigorous cleaning and sanitisation regime, you have a decent recipe and have temp control, then you have pretty much all you need to brew good beer. Active learning can then make them bloody good beers.

I've made some absolutely crap beers, had infections, stuffed up about everything you can stuff up, spent more $ than SWMBO will ever forgive me for if she ever finds out, but still loving this hobby.

There is a learning curve, as there is to any activity in life, and it's really up to each of us where we want to end up on that curve. I have one mate who is perfectly happy brewing Coopers kits and his beer is awesome. Like you he brews mainly to save coin. Me, I love brewing AG and brew and tweak beers over and over mainly cos I love the recipe development and the brewing process; the drinking is secondary (just).

Knowledge is a big component and I love to read and practice. Randy Moshers 'Mastering Homebrew' is (IMO) the best primer around not just because it's full of useful info, but also because he has a fairly unique take on things. For $10 or so on kindle it's a bargain. If you want a physical copy, I've found book depository great as the prices are reasonable and include shipping.

Good luck


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## Judanero (23/2/16)

Can you please provide a little more info regarding your fermentation/sanitation/actual brewing process?

Temp control and correct pitching rates for your yeast is a big factor that will help with your final beer flavour, great advice about getting a FWK to help isolate your problem.

FWIW whenever I have brewed an ordinary beer I have still drank it- as a pseudo penance for making a mistake... which is all an ordinary batch is, a mistake (sometimes multiple) along the way.

I keep and always have kept immaculate records of every brew day including recipe, temps, volumes, times of additions etc as well as anything that didn't go to plan. Looking back at some of my early beers and their tasting notes I can now pretty well identify where they went wrong, from wrong amounts, fermenting temps, yeast selection, hop selection etc. and I don't think there has been any brewing slip up I haven't learnt from.

Stick with it, you can nut out the problem and be producing great beers for a whole lot cheaper than buying commercial craft beer.


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## Lager Bloke (23/2/16)

I agree with all the above comments.Craft Brewer do various wort kits + brilliant for advice,also their bar is basically next door-I think they have some if not most of the FWK on tap.All in Brewing at Banyo sell FWK's + beers on tap(no affiliation to either)Also have found this forum a wealth of information-as someone said previously 'Search' is your friend.
Rob.


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## Rosscoe (23/2/16)

Mate as far as my experience went, i had half a dozen brews and a similar experience until i found a great local home brew store and started getting some advice on how to improve. The biggest thing a new brewer has to learn is that little things that might seem unimportant like fermentation temp or what sanitiser you're using make a huge difference.

As said above, it's hard to give too mush advice without more info on what you're doing buddy, but if you read more and get some solid advice, you'll push through it. I made some that I had to tip down the sink, but got through that. Also, bear in mind that beers in bottles, especially kit beers, get better over time. In fact I'd say that with what you're most likely brewing, you'd almost certainly want to leave your bottles for at least 6-8 weeks before drinking. This means you need lots of bottles, but it's pretty fun collecting them[emoji1]


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## wobbly (23/2/16)

If you are having trouble sorting out the basic recipe for either a "Kit and Kilo" or "Full Extract" you could do a lot worse than have a look at/use IanH Excel Recipe Spread Sheet. It can be found at the bottom of post #1 in the following topic:- 

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/29655-kit-and-extract-beer-spreadsheet/

Cheers

Wobbly


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Literally had my entire brew story sitting in the reply when the power went out (tranny blew on the pole out front) and lost it all... Won't go into as much detail on the iPhone..

So many questions! I think we've missed the mark in some replies though. Essentially I know what went wrong in the brews (mostly thanks to replies in this forum). It was mainly crap recipes (some from LHBS and some by experiment - what I had lying around). The point is I've bought ~ $1K worth or brewing hardware, bottling and now kegging kit and I've made one, maybe two brews that are not either lolly water or bloody awful. 

I think I might steer away from the LHBS recipes and get a better source. Most of the disappointments derived from there. I'm not surprised my one own experiment was shit, but even then I was surprised how bad it really was.

All my brews are clean and san, temp controlled and with good quality ingredients (most full extract). I know time helps, but even that's a pain sometimes - one ale I actually liked was better at 2 weeks in the bottle than 4...

I've made lagers, ales, stout, pilsner, all with proper Saf or MJ yeasts - except my first brew, that was kit beer and kit yeast and was one of the right off's..

But again I digress. I will keep chipping away at it. Just frustrated by my first half dozen or so batches. Only really had one ale that I've really enjoyed... Guess I had no idea making beer would be such an art.

I've read a lot, and YouTube'd my arse off, but I imagine there's lots more to learn. Suspect it's just experience and I'll know when a recipe doesn't look right in time.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Oh, and my latest balls up? over-carbed a keg.. I managed to de-gas it to a sensible level, but now it's tainted with that bitter CO2 taste.. FML


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## droid (24/2/16)

we learn from our mistakes, help us find yours, pick one of your failed brews and put it up here: _replace the orange with your info_

there are mistakes below and questions to be asked and i brewed like this for a time - you're not alone.

style = _pale ale,_
ingredients = _1 x coopers australian pale ale tin, 1 x coopers brew enhancer, 40gms hops, 23 ltr brew, expected abv 5%_
process = _heated up cooper brew tin to make extract soft, put brew enhancer into some hot water to disolve, boiled some hops for an hour, strained the hops and put all together and mixed up to 23ltrs, the sticker on the side of the keg was reading somewhere around mid to high 20's, sprinkled on some good yeast, put in the cupboard with lid on and air lock_
fermentation notes = _bubbled hard for 48hours then nothing, left it for 2 weeks, took the lid off and had a whiff (burnt the old nostrils a bit) - had a look at it, the surface was nice and clear, didn't bother with taking a gravity sample, it was done_
bottling notes = _primed each bottle with the right amount of sugar, bottled off the brew, capped it and put in spare room at ambient temperature, left it two weeks_
tasting notes = _no fizz, tastes like wet cardboard, sherry like with a noticeable twang, very bitter - can't see this getting that much better over time to be great_
tasting notes =_ 2 weeks later ~ so now one month in the bottle, a nice "pop' when opened, not as bad a twang but still there, very full tasting in the mouth i wonder if the beer got down to a Final Gravity of 1012 as it tastes very full and gummy, very bitter_
tasting notes =_ went back to this brew after 8 weeks, fizzy beer, can't really describe the off flavour but the beer is full in the mouth and very bitter, won't brew that style again_


If you could give/hand over these sort of details ~ which of course means showing us your warts and all,...

stick with it mate!


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## sponge (24/2/16)

As above - process of elimination.

Grab a reputable FWK and ferment out. Most FWKs are very nice so with the hard work (wort) done for you, all you need to do is ferment and keg. If it turns out nice then you know it's in your recipe/ingredients/process. If it turns out shit then you know it may have a lot to do with your fermentation process.

The biggest improvement to all of my beers came from proper yeast handling and temp-controlled fermentation. A big healthy pitch of yeast, lots of oxygen and controlled ferment temps including diacetyl rest and cold-conditioning.

It's easy making great wort, it's a lot harder making great beer.


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## manticle (24/2/16)

What do you enjoy drinking?
Can you give a few examples of beers that have been wrong and why?

Is it mostly kegging gear you've outlaid so much on? $1k+ seems eccessive for most extract needs.


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## wide eyed and legless (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> So tell me, does everyone hit the wall? If you press on, chew your way through your shitty beers, do you one day get a few brews down to a fine art and it's all worth it?
> 
> Lend me your inspiration, chaps


Take heed of a lot of the posts above, whatever questions you have got has been asked before and there will be an answer somewhere on the internet, read up and recognise where you may be falling over, you may be finding it hard going now but eventually you will find it is harder to make an awful beer. Never give up. 'If you think you are beaten, you are' Like some of those who sell their brewing gear. Quitters.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

manticle said:


> What do you enjoy drinking?
> Can you give a few examples of beers that have been wrong and why?
> 
> Is it mostly kegging gear you've outlaid so much on? $1k+ seems eccessive for most extract needs.


My kegging setup was around $600 with a few kegs, cylinder, upgraded lines, SS gun etc. and my brewing hardware and bottling hardware easy total $400+ but bought a heap of grolsch tallies also. That doesn't include my chest fridge and temp control either...

Edit: I like Bud, Guinness and most craft beers too.


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## Grott (24/2/16)

Your next brew, why not tell the ingredients and quantities you intent to use, and step by step the processes you intent to do to produce your brew. By doing this persons on this forum will be able to check off those ingredients/processes and thus help to achieve a great outcome.
Cheers


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## Dave70 (24/2/16)

Not having a go at you, azztech, but its entirely possible to, as the they say, have 'all the gear and no idea'. VB is brewed using million dollar state of the art equipment, for example.

Personally I never got the results I was chasing until I switched to AG. *Much* greater control over the ingredients process. My rig at the time consisted of a beaten up 50L esky, converted keg for the boil, two cornys and an e bay fridge. My tuition came via this joint, a book or two and you tube. I truly believe you need to feel part of the process to let it get under your skin. Dumping goo into bucket and stirring just doesn't cut it. I've made cups of coffee more involved than K & K brewing. Once you get the hang of it, its easy as pissing on the back of your hand. 

This thread buy a former AHB member demonstrated how easily and inexpensively it can be done. 

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/38674-move-to-all-grain-for-thirty-bucks/


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## WarmerBeer (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> ... (tranny blew on the pole out front) and lost it all... Won't go into as much detail on the iPhone..


Some people just have no sense of propriety these day.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

droid said:


> we learn from our mistakes, help us find yours, pick one of your failed brews and put it up here: _replace the orange with your info_
> 
> there are mistakes below and questions to be asked and i brewed like this for a time - you're not alone.
> 
> ...


As I said before, I know where I have gone wrong.

Kit only- Blonde lager that was too warm the first 24 hours and ended up with a heap of fruity tones. This is also the one and only time I used a kit yeast.
Extract - 2x Bud clone lagers that were low in ABV (~3.5%) that I can only put down to low OG (in the mid 1030s from memory) and probably exasperated by not pitching enough lager yeast (following recipe and yeast advice from LHBS).
Extract - Guinness clone that is again low in ABV (3.5%) and colour is far too light (recipe from LHBS).
Extract - Stone & Wood clone that tasted great and decent ABV - the taste has gone a bit bitter as they've aged longer though.
Kit +grain+hop - Pilsner that was absolutely awful - my own experiment with left over ingredients. This was a comedy of errors - mismatched ingredients, ferment too warm due to no temp control space, kegged too early, over carbed.
Extract - Squires Golden Ale clone down at the moment that the LHBS tweaked the recipe to get more ABV, early samples taste okay but who knows.

I use decent yeast I believe, US05, S04, S23 M84 - depending on the brew obviously. I dry pitch direct to FV @ optimum pitching temp.

Equipment is all practically new, clean and well san. I've watched what feels like a million YouTube clips on prep and san so I'm pretty sure I'm not getting any bacteria.

I have chest fridge that's been fully san and fitted with a probe temp controller so again, temp is not an issue, unless of course I run out of space as I did with one brew.

Timing is a bit iffy, my first couple I started drinking too early and they were quite green. But even after a month they are still pretty ordinary - I certainly wouldn't give one to a friend.

Anyhow, there a separate posts about some of these already so most have already been troubleshot. I was just having a vent due to the frustration of it all.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

I am going to give a FWK a shot as those have suggested above. If it turns out as expected I guess all I'm left with is the recipe.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

WarmerBeer said:


> Some people just have no sense of propriety these day.


Not sure what you're getting at?


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## Danwood (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> Not sure what you're getting at?


He's making a low-brow joke about Trannies blowing poles.

Classic Warmer Beer !


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## WarmerBeer (24/2/16)

Danwood said:


> He's making a low-brow joke about Trannies blowing poles.
> 
> Classic Warmer Beer !


C'mon, lets keep it on topic. Don't want nobody bringing down the hammer 

Back to OP, the top 5 things you can do to improve your finished beer, imho, are (in order of importance):

Sanitation
Temperature control
Sanitation
Yeast health (quantity of healthy, viable, yeast)
Sanitation
Oh, and don't forget about sanitation.

Edit: to re-iterate what MXD said way back in Post #2, join your local Brew Club. Quality of my own beers improved considerably when I started talking to, and *listening to*, other more experienced brewers.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

grott said:


> Your next brew, why not tell the ingredients and quantities you intent to use, and step by step the processes you intent to do to produce your brew. By doing this persons on this forum will be able to check off those ingredients/processes and thus help to achieve a great outcome.
> Cheers


See attached couple of pictures, they are my last two recipes as supplied by the LHBS. 

My actual SGs were:


Guinness clone - 1042 -> 1015
Golden Ale - 1046 - still fermenting

Any comments on these recipes? Do they look reasonable? I questioned the stout as there was a lot of light malt in there but was told too much dark malt and the yeast wont process it all. When I was there picking up the golden ale gear I told them about the unusually low ABV and light colour and they said they are now rehashing the recipe - bleh

Looking at the spreadsheet figures it looks like the OG is not far from expected, but my FGs are high - thoughts? I'm assume not enough yeast? Try a starter?
For pitching, I bring my yeast up to room temp after being in the fridge (sachet on the bench for an hour), I shake the hell out of my FV to aerate, pitch yeast at optimum temp (sprinkle dry yeast evenly over wort), then drop the FV into the fridge at optimum temp. This seems to be a pretty usual way to do it for a novice, yeah?


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Danwood said:


> He's making a low-brow joke about Trannies blowing poles.
> 
> Classic Warmer Beer !


Oh dear.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Come to think of it most of my apparent yeast attenuation has been in the 60s and not 70s as you'd expect...

Temp wise my ales are pitched @ 22c and stored @20c (+/- 1c) and my lagers pitched @ 14c and stored at 10c (+/- 1c).

Generally speaking I wait until I have 3 days of steady SG readings before racking.


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## sponge (24/2/16)

Missing OG from extract/kit is pretty hard unless it's been diluted too much.

How are you measuring OG? Hydrometer? Have you tested it in 20'C water to confirm reading of 1.000?


EDIT: Don't worry about lager yeasts for now. Concentrate on getting everything right with an ale yeast first IMO.


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## Mikeyr (24/2/16)

Err... you're in *Brissie *.... it's *summer *and it's *warm*, the biggest single impact above sanitation and you're probably doing that ok is *TEMPERATURE*.

I totally concur with the Fresh wort kit, but if your temps are too high you get those flavours that my mates associate with home brew. Lots of esters and blah!

For general "Ale" if you can hold to sub 20 and ideally 18c the taste will be totally different. Fridge, ice bath, whatever ......

The ideal is a nice stable temp, but keeping it cool anyway you can is better than poaching it!


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## Mikeyr (24/2/16)

OK so you posted while i was typing ...... ignore everything i just said .....DOH!


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## azztech (24/2/16)

sponge said:


> Missing OG from extract/kit is pretty hard unless it's been diluted too much.
> 
> How are you measuring OG? Hydrometer? Have you tested it in 20'C water to confirm reading of 1.000?
> 
> ...


No, I haven't - but I do have two different hydrometers and the readings are the same. I'll try this to double check though.

Edit: My lagers came out okay taste wise, just low in ABV again.


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Mikeyr said:


> OK so you posted while i was typing ...... ignore everything i just said .....DOH!


All good. Temp is not an issue I don't believe.


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## Nizmoose (24/2/16)

Hi Azztech it appears you do have some idea of what youre not quite nailing and if you make a conscious effort to fix those you'll be well on your way, how much info have you read? I'd suggest reading how to brew (the online free version will absolutely do) from front to back before doing your next brew, you'll learn a heap. Keep it simple and find a good recipe that works (I'll pm you my first ever extract beer which was one of the best beers ive made). Any of the recipes from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles would be a great place to start. And in the fermentation department, whilst the waiting will kill you, try dropping the temp to more like 18c or 19c with a yeast like us05 and give it two weeks in the primary fermenter, I think that alone will do you a lot of good. Pick a good recipe, nail the process and get the fermentation right and you should notice massive improvement.


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## GalBrew (24/2/16)

There are a few details in your description of your process that you have glossed over such as "optimum pitching temp". Every detail is important, unsurprisingly your pitching temp is very important. More details please.


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## wobbly (24/2/16)

As others have stated make sure your yeast handling procedures are in accordance with good sound practices.

Are you sprinkling the dry yeast onto the wort or onto the foam created when you shook the shit out of the fermenter as this may be causing some issues with the number of yeast cells making it into the wort

Others may/will disagree but according to the manufacturers good practice is to rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching see here for a typical procedure http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/04/03/dry-yeast-in-home-brewed-beer/

Following rehydration as above you should then condition the yeast slurry by tempering it to the same temperature you are pitching it into by adding a small amount of wort to your rehydration vessel followed by a second dose say 10 mins later and THEN pitch this total volume into your fermenter 

According to what I have read failure to do the above will have a detrimental effect on the number of yeast cells that survive the rehydration process and into the wort as the yeast can be stressed and die by being rehydrated in the sweet wort rather than warm water

As I said you will find as many proponents that say pitching direct into the fermenter works for them but hey you are having issues so take a word out of the manufacturers book and rehydrate according to their recommended procedure as Fermentis details here http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/

Hope this helps

Cheers

Wobbly


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Nizmoose said:


> Hi Azztech it appears you do have some idea of what youre not quite nailing and if you make a conscious effort to fix those you'll be well on your way, how much info have you read? I'd suggest reading how to brew (the online free version will absolutely do) from front to back before doing your next brew, you'll learn a heap. Keep it simple and find a good recipe that works (I'll pm you my first ever extract beer which was one of the best beers ive made). Any of the recipes from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles would be a great place to start. And in the fermentation department, whilst the waiting will kill you, try dropping the temp to more like 18c or 19c with a yeast like us05 and give it two weeks in the primary fermenter, I think that alone will do you a lot of good. Pick a good recipe, nail the process and get the fermentation right and you should notice massive improvement.


Thanks for the tip on the slightly lower temps. I have read the online 'how to brew' and certain chapters I have read a few times. My average ferment for the primary has been ~10 days. I take my first SG read on day 7 and then another 2 times over the next couple of days and then rack off the day after that. Would the extra 4 days on the cake make significant difference with an ale?

Another thought, my beer storage room is about 26c. I rack off to a bottling bucket, into bottles/kegs and store in here. Would I get strange flavours from a warmer secondary? Sure hope not, I'd need a cool room to store all the beer @ 20c...


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## Yob (24/2/16)

While I (good gods) agree with most of the above, the manufacturers advice is sometimes a bit contradictory..


*REHYDRATION INSTRUCTIONS: *Sprinkle the yeast in _*minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C*_ (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.

Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

from HERE for example..

wish theyd just take a bloody stance, or release mortality figures (based on a range of OG's) so this long lived discussion can be put to bed...


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## kaiserben (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> Generally speaking I wait until I have 3 days of steady SG readings before racking.


My advice won't fix your low starting gravity issues, but re above: I'd leave it longer.

It may have reached Final Gravity, but the yeast can still clean out some off flavours if left alone for a bit. Generally I leave ales in the fermenter for 3 weeks (or 2 weeks if you really, really have no patience). 

Lagers are trickier and take longer. Best to concentrate on getting ales right first. 

In regards to the SG issues, It's hard to imagine a LHBS could stuff up on a recipe (but sounds like they did on that Guiness clone???). How are you measuring the volume of water you're using? For example, certain equipment I have (BMW water container/fermenter from Bunnings) has volume markers that are out by about 1.5L at the markers around 20L. If I was using that to measure out water it'd result in me using about 10% too much water (and thus lower than expected OG).


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## Nizmoose (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> Thanks for the tip on the slightly lower temps. I have read the online 'how to brew' and certain chapters I have read a few times. My average ferment for the primary has been ~10 days. I take my first SG read on day 7 and then another 2 times over the next couple of days and then rack off the day after that. Would the extra 4 days on the cake make significant difference with an ale?
> 
> Another thought, my beer storage room is about 26c. I rack off to a bottling bucket, into bottles/kegs and store in here. Would I get strange flavours from a warmer secondary? Sure hope not, I'd need a cool room to store all the beer @ 20c...


26c for bottle conditioning is fine imo, buuuuut thats what I'd say after its had a good ferment. The yeast need time to clean up secondary compounds or off flavours after they've achieved your final gravity so in short yes, those extra days would make a difference. I used to ferment for two weeks, check that it had hit terminal SG by the end of the second week, then let it go for another week before cold crashing but that long is probably uneccesary, If I was you I'd do what youre doing, but then up the temp to say 20C after your ten days till the two week mark, then cold crash for two days then bottle. See how much that changes.


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## pcmfisher (24/2/16)

@azztech, Have you ever tried anyone elses home brew beer that you thought was as good as you were expecting yours to be?

Has anyone else had a taste of yours?


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## azztech (24/2/16)

wobbly said:


> As others have stated make sure your yeast handling procedures are in accordance with good sound practices.
> 
> Are you sprinkling the dry yeast onto the wort or onto the foam created when you shook the shit out of the fermenter as this may be causing some issues with the number of yeast cells making it into the wort
> 
> ...


Hey Wobbly,

This is the extract on re-hydration from the manufacturer:


> Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
> Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.


I do the alternative, which I would have assumed still to be 9/10 effective if they're saying it's an alternative. To be precise, I sprinkle onto the shaken-to-shit foam  leave for 30 minutes and gently swirl by rotating the FV. Then straight off to the fridge which is probably a little more swirling en route.


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## Yob (24/2/16)

if you are pitching onto foam, its not really hydrating though right? it isn't in contact with the wort..

FWIW, I always rehydrated in water and added wort at 5min intervals to get to the right temperature.. I still do this now that I mostly make starters and use liquid yeasts.

Bad habits start the easiest and last the longest


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## azztech (24/2/16)

pcmfisher said:


> @azztech, Have you ever tried anyone elses home brew beer that you thought was as good as you were expecting yours to be?
> 
> Has anyone else had a taste of yours?


Nope! Are you insinuating that all HB tastes awful (to me)? Hadn't really thought of that. I figured HB should taste like commercial beer if you're not botching it.


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## Mikeyr (24/2/16)

And shaking up the wort?? Adding in some oxygen, Yobs got a point, the sprinkle method is the least effective of all the choices .... and ditto, has anyone else tried the beer and not liked it?

Maybe the styles not really your cup of steeped hops. We've all done those i reckon!


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Yob said:


> if you are pitching onto foam, its not really hydrating though right? it isn't in contact with the wort..
> 
> FWIW, I always rehydrated in water and added wort at 5min intervals to get to the right temperature.. I still do this now that I mostly make starters and use liquid yeasts.
> 
> Bad habits start the easiest and last the longest


Wellll.... I'm not a scientist but foam is still a fluid right? It's still getting wet and thus hydrated, of course not to the level of actual wort but then it is being further introduced with the swirling thereafter.

By no means saying you're wrong, but I saw this method in a few american youtube vids and it made enough sense to me (the n00b).

I'll definitely try re-hydrating on the next one. I almost did it on the last one but I read it was a delicate process and even easier to kill your yeast that way if not done right - didn't sound good for a novice.


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## Yob (24/2/16)

don't listen to yanks...


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## wobbly (24/2/16)

Yob said:


> if you are pitching onto foam, its not really hydrating though right? it isn't in contact with the wort..
> 
> FWIW, I always rehydrated in water and added wort at 5min intervals to get to the right temperature.. I still do this now that I mostly make starters and use liquid yeasts.
> 
> Bad habits start the easiest and last the longest


I do exactly the same and have never had a yeast issue with my beer fermentation albeit that I use a different process to a standard plastic fermenter

Follow this, which is basically the manufactures "preferred" yeast rehydration process, and you can cross yeast of your list as possible causes for your issues 

Wobbly


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## Nizmoose (24/2/16)

For the love of God lets drop the yeast subject before this turns into another nightmare of a thread


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## wobbly (24/2/16)

Nizmoose said:


> For the love of God lets drop the yeast subject before this turns into another nightmare of a thread


Yeah stick your head in the sand if you wish but poor yeast practices can/will/do result in crappy tasting beer

As was said above get the yeast practice right and you can tick that of as a possible issue

Wobbly


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## azztech (24/2/16)

Regarding joining a beer club, I would liken joining a beer club, 7 brews in to joining a swimming club when you're 30kg overweight and pastey white. Wouldn't I save myself some ridicule by waiting until I had some experience under my belt?


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## Diesel80 (24/2/16)

Azztech,

get a FWK (any pale ale) and ferment it under temp control with Nottingham yeast, 18-20 degrees.
Leave it for 10 days, raise to 22 for 4 days, then step down to 1 degrees over the next couple of days and then hold there for 3 days.

Package and carbonate beer. Enjoy after appropriate conditioning time.

You have all the cleanliness side of it sorted. Sounds like something with the receipe or ferment causing grief.

I say Nottingham because it is ravenous, reliable and it drops like a stone when the temp drops. It is also very neutral.

F*cking foolproof mate.

Cheers,
D80


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## bradsbrew (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> Regarding joining a beer club, I would liken joining a beer club, 7 brews in to joining a swimming club when you're 30kg overweight and pastey white. Wouldn't I save myself some ridicule by waiting until I had some experience under my belt?


No, that is a reason for joining. Brew clubs have brewers of all different experience and types of brewing. Take a beer or 2 and you should walk away with great advice and feedback, if not join a different club.

Also a good homebrew shop is another place to take a beer for feedback. You will be highly suprised with what an experienced brewer can pick up on and give advice. The key is that it is a good brew store.


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## Spiesy (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> Regarding joining a beer club, I would liken joining a beer club, 7 brews in to joining a swimming club when you're 30kg overweight and pastey white. Wouldn't I save myself some ridicule by waiting until I had some experience under my belt?


No. You'll be on the fast-track to sorting out your issues.

The best asset I had when I started brewing was mates who had been brewing for years. I jumped straight in the "deep end" with all grain and kegging and haven't looked back. Personally I feel that reading and watching videos is great, but talking to someone in person and seeing things in person (and been able to interact and ask questions) is the best way to learn.

Advice and camaraderie from a local brew club will certainly get you on the right track, and I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself.


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## Nizmoose (24/2/16)

wobbly said:


> Yeah stick your head in the sand if you wish but poor yeast practices can/will/do result in crappy tasting beer
> 
> As was said above get the yeast practice right and you can tick that of as a possible issue
> 
> Wobbly


It was more along the lines of sure use best yeast practices but stressing about rehydration or not is probably not the pinnacle of concern for a new brewer and of course that's just an opinion. Sprinkling on top or rehydration with dried yeast should and do both work fine for different people


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## madpierre06 (24/2/16)

azztech said:


> Nope! Are you insinuating that all HB tastes awful (to me)? Hadn't really thought of that. I figured HB should taste like commercial beer if you're not botching it.


Nope...HB is more likely to be very far removed from commercial beer if you're not botching it.

And welcome aboard, lad. Yarrrggghhhh!

Re-edit...go into Cellarbrations at Bowen Hills, The Stafford, or Everton park and ask for a small variety of different styles of their best craft beers, taste 'em, then get your head around what real crafted beer tastes like. At your best, you'll be able to make beers thast resembles these. decently made Hb won't taste anything like most commercial beers as they have no real taste. IMHO


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## azztech (24/2/16)

madpierre06 said:


> Nope...HB is more likely to be very far removed from commercial beer if you're not botching it.
> 
> And welcome aboard, lad. Yarrrggghhhh!
> 
> Re-edit...go into Cellarbrations at Bowen Hills, The Stafford, or Everton park and ask for a small variety of different styles of their best craft beers, taste 'em, then get your head around what real crafted beer tastes like. At your best, you'll be able to make beers thast resembles these. decently made Hb won't taste anything like most commercial beers as they have no real taste. IMHO


I should probably clarify that I consider anything I can buy at a bottlo to be commercial, so I still consider craft brew to be commercial. Shit, craft brews are a lot better than VB and XXXX but they still don't taste like baboon arse like some of my first HBs


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## madpierre06 (24/2/16)

:lol: I actually recall seeing the idea for a Baboon Scrotum IPA or something like that elsewhere


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## dkaos (24/2/16)

I have brewed plenty of average beers, some recipes on the internet are dodgy as! Dr Smurto's Golden Ale however, well that was magic. Have brewed it once and not since though, really need to.


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## Matplat (24/2/16)

I will second the recommendation for obtaining a copy of 'brewing classic styles'.... and since my recent experience with chlorinated water I would put that high on the list of potential flavour impeding problems.


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## Judanero (24/2/16)

If you have all the gear already i.e. a pot large enough for a full scale boil using extract, for shits and giggles maybe get some swiss voile and try biab for a batch... you could order pre cracked grain from craft brewer or a complete recipe pre-cracked from brewman (if you go the brewman route the snpa clone, benchmark brown and 150 lashes are tried and tested good ale recipes).

As someone else has said, I personally found my beers were better once I went all grain, I could always perceive a slight twang to kit and extract beers had an underlying sweetness as well. NB- This is only my experience, I'm sure there are award winning extract and kit beers and maybe if I'd stuck with it I could put my hand up at being able to produce those aforementioned award winning beers also... but my first "my god that is a bloody good beer" moment was my second ag beer. 

If you do go down the rabbit hole liquid yeast also offer a ridiculous range to play with and I have found my ferments cleaner since I have used 02 with a ss air stone-incidentally shaking a fv will barely if ever get you the optimum ppm 02 required for yeast.


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## ctagz (24/2/16)

Sounds like you're trying to hit a moving target mate... Pick one style and work with that until you get results you like. Don't change many variables at once, consistency is key here. Oh also write everything down.

As mentioned Yeast, try pitch two packs (rehydrated as mentioned), with dry yeast you don't need to aerate your wort (Y)

Personally I have found my beers taste better when i shoot for around 4% ABV... dunno just do so far, i assume less out of balance. I have also found i get good results trying to make pilsner style beers, as opposed to pale ales.

I have recently got into changing my water profile. water is the largest ingredient after all.

You're on the right track, TL;DR

Pick one style
Pitch two packs of yeast
Work on consistency changing one variable at a time

Yes we've all hit that wall, all it takes is one good beer to knock it down.


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## SBOB (24/2/16)

ctagz said:


> with dry yeast you don't need to aerate your wort (Y)


plenty would disagree with that opinion


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## Dave70 (25/2/16)

Clints Gadgets said:


> I have brewed plenty of average beers, some recipes on the internet are dodgy as! Dr Smurto's Golden Ale however, well that was magic. Have brewed it once and not since though, really need to.


Which one? 
Seems to be about ten thousand variations.


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## mckenry (25/2/16)

Dave70 said:


> Which one?
> Seems to be about ten thousand variations.


 :icon_offtopic: Agreed. Original is it. Variations are different beers IMHO


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## Matplat (25/2/16)

LDME + spec grains and hops makes delicious beer, not as much control as AG, but variables removed and plenty of potential for greatness.....


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## dkaos (25/2/16)

I only brewed it from Smurto's recipe, I think I have it printed at home, although that may be the Landlord. Sorry it was a long time ago!


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## pcmfisher (25/2/16)

azztech said:


> Nope! Are you insinuating that all HB tastes awful (to me)? Hadn't really thought of that. I figured HB should taste like commercial beer if you're not botching it.


Well the first thing I would do is try someone elses homebrew and if you like it get the recipe and see if you can make it the same.

As far as homebrew tasting like commercial beer, yes and no.

Kit brews - you need a lot of imagination to make them taste anything like a commercial beer. I have never tasted one.

Extract brews - Need less imagination, and with a bit of care get huge quality increases over kits. IMO.

All Grain brews - Obviously the way to go if you want quality. However, just because it is an all grain brew doesn't guarantee it will be good.


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## wobbly (25/2/16)

SBOB said:


> plenty would disagree with that opinion


Whilst plenty may disagree that doesn't make it best practice 

This quote is from the Danstar Q&A 

_Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane goes through changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast._

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Parks (25/2/16)

azztech said:


> See attached couple of pictures, they are my last two recipes as supplied by the LHBS.
> 
> My actual SGs were:
> 
> ...


Is it just me or did you forget to add the hops? Neither recipe has the required hop contribution to make up the IBUs unless I'm reading it wrong.

What suburb are you in? 

If you want to get some experienced opinions BABBs has its February meeting tonight (Cooparoo Bowls Club). 
If you're in the west myself and another BJCP brewer are always happy to help. 
If you're in the east side head to Craftbrewer.
If you're north there is PUBS brew club.
If you're anywhere heading south to the coast there are heaps of brewers along the way.


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## SBOB (25/2/16)

wobbly said:


> Whilst plenty may disagree that doesn't make it best practice
> 
> This quote is from the Danstar Q&A


ctagz point was regarding AERATING the wort, not re-hydrating dry yeast

To assume that because you use dry yeast, the oxygenation of wort becomes inconsequential to the quality of fermentation (and the resulting beer) is something that I am pretty sure (hopeful) that plenty would disagree with


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## djsmi4 (25/2/16)

> I know time helps, but even that's a pain sometimes - one ale I actually liked was better at 2 weeks in the bottle than 4...


I've noticed in two posts (I've only quoted this one) where you've mentioned time measured in weeks... You might want to wait a couple of months rather than weeks? My first brew since getting back in to brewing is only 2.5 months old & has improved considerably over the past month. My 2nd brew (2 months old) probably needs another month or two. My 3rd brew (1 month old) is good to drink now. They're all different recipes, but I must reiterate that I'd count time in months rather than weeks for a typical brew to be a drink you're happy to be drinking.

Cheers

Dave


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## Coodgee (25/2/16)

Parks said:


> Is it just me or did you forget to add the hops? Neither recipe has the required hop contribution to make up the IBUs unless I'm reading it wrong.
> 
> What suburb are you in?
> 
> ...


hmmm.... *strokes chin* I'm in Greenslopes. might be worth popping in!


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## contrarian (25/2/16)

I think there are significant issues with standard LHBS recipes as they don't really take into account an individual system. This can lead to substantial difference with exactly the same ingredients. 

Try some tried and true recipes from this site or brewing classic styles as a jumping off point and you should be right. 

What others have said about fermentation is absolutely critical too. Make sure yeast has been kept in the fridge, that everything is clean and sanitized etc etc

Brewers make wort but yeast makes beer!


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## Coodgee (25/2/16)

contrarian said:


> I think there are significant issues with standard LHBS recipes as they don't really take into account an individual system *some of them have NFI what they are talking about. *1 tin of Morgans something-or-other, 500 grams of crystal (you can crack 'em with a rolling pin maaate) and one packet of brew enhancer 5 zillion. bloody bewdeeful maaate.


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## Matplat (25/2/16)

djsmi4 said:


> I've noticed in two posts (I've only quoted this one) where you've mentioned time measured in weeks... You might want to wait a couple of months rather than weeks? My first brew since getting back in to brewing is only 2.5 months old & has improved considerably over the past month. My 2nd brew (2 months old) probably needs another month or two. My 3rd brew (1 month old) is good to drink now. They're all different recipes, but I must reiterate that I'd count time in months rather than weeks for a typical brew to be a drink you're happy to be drinking.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


That must be kit brews right? Even so, it sounds like you're doing something wrong. An average APA should be good in 2-3 weeks after bottling although will probably reach its best at 5-6 weeks.


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## djsmi4 (26/2/16)

Yes, kit brews. I should probably add a bit more context to my last post:

* The first brew (dark ale) lost its "green" factor after 3-4 weeks & was good to drink from then, but is still continually improving.
* The APA's perfectly drinkable & has been for a few weeks but each week I open an bottle it's better than the past week. It just seems to be maturing slower than the dark ale.
* The cider's maturing the quickest out of the lot (but dry as balls due to how I did the brew) & was good to go after just a couple of weeks in.

I'm no pro & I do use a bit of fudge-factor with my brewing. I'm just happy to wait longer to drink mine. If what I'm experiencing seems to go against the grain (apologies for pun) of what most brewers here typically experience then I guess I'm doing something a little different, or even wrong (yet getting away with it)?

Apologies for taking the topic away from the OP & making it all about me haha - I was just thinking that if the OP was brewing in a similar style to how I have been, he might just need to wait a little longer prior to consuming. Except in the cases where OP's brews had gotten infected of course!


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