# Controller amps and elements



## Mr B (5/12/15)

Hey all

I am preparing to build a controller using herms, pids, and elements. Looking at elements for the HLT and HERMS.

5 star distilling weldless elements and housings look ok and come highly recommended.

http://www.5stardistilling.net/weldless-2400w-element-guard/

I will have a 15 amp and 10 amp circuit to use. Maybe more than one 10 amp, will have to check it out, but would rather limit to two.

Appreciate the knowledge and experience of others - I have searched for the past couple of hours to no result.

If I use a 2400w element on the 10 amp circuit, and a 3600w element on the 15 amp circuit, is there a little headroom to run a couple of pids and two pumps?

Or would I effectively need a third circuit to run this stuff?

5 Star only appears to have the above wattages, nothing a little lower to cater for running the extras. Their housings are pretty cool and save me stuffing around making something.

Also, does anyone have any pics etc on how they have connected the 5 star weldless elements in the housings? Will either get a sparky to do it or get it certified. Do you need a terminal block or similar inside the housing?

Thanks


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## Camo6 (5/12/15)

What type of pump are you planning to use? My Kaixins draw 100mA according to the label. I imagine PIDs would draw even less.
My original controller used two 10amp feeds to each run a 2400W element, pump and PID without problems but it is at the high end of the recommended consumption.


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

Would you be pumping and boiling at the same time ?

How big are the pumps ?

The pid wont take much power so should be fine on the 10A cct.


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## SCR29 (6/12/15)

Running a 2400 and 2x keg king mkII pumps on a 10amp in hlt together with no probs and a 3600 on 15amp in boil. No pids but all works okay.


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## TheWiggman (6/12/15)

Are you referring to 10A and 15A circuit as in 2 different circuits in the house? Or are you running feeds into a control box?
Typically - correct me if I'm wrong Camo - a domestic circuit running 10A wall sockets will have a 16A breaker, allowing 6A for other appliances while the element's running. These should come off a separate individual socket to the run powering the element.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

With a 15A cct, only 1 outlet ( single GPO ) per cct is permitted. They use the same sized wire for 10A & 15A ccts, but the Earth pin on the plug is bigger so you cant run 15A appliances of a 10A cct


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## Camo6 (6/12/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Are you referring to 10A and 15A circuit as in 2 different circuits in the house? Or are you running feeds into a control box?
> Typically - correct me if I'm wrong Camo - a domestic circuit running 10A wall sockets will have a 16A breaker, allowing 6A for other appliances while the element's running. These should come off a separate individual socket to the run powering the element.


Sure, if the switchboard uses breakers then more than likely they're 16A. But, the OP hasn't mentioned that so for all we know it's an old ceramic fuse with a bit of coat hanger for protection.
A 10A circuit is likely to have numerous outlets, depending on max demand, and loading more than 10 Amps on it will likely cause headaches when SWMBO puts the dishwasher on or the fridge element kicks in. The 16A is the break capacity to protect the circuit not the recommended work limit. I wish the bloke that put my kitchen and laundry on the same circuit considered that. I reckon running a new circuit will be easier than training the wife not to run the dishwasher, drier and kettle at the same time.
Like I said, running a 2400W element, pump and pid worked fine for me but I have two 2.5mm2 circuits to the shed and don't run any other loads when brewing. Plus my supply voltage is around 250V due to the proximity to the transformer I suspect. I've actually upgraded to 20A CB's as the 2.5mm2 enclosed in the ground is still capable of carrying over 24A. This allowed me to upgrade to 3.6kW elements on each circuit. I'd guess most older 15A circuits in homes are wired in 2.5mm2 anyway. They're just limited to one or two outlets maximum.
If the OP has access to a 10A and 15A circuit and was confident of their integrity, I'd be running the 2.4kW off the 10A and 3.6kW off the 15A and be sure to reduce other loads when brewing so your PID doesn't drop out half way through a weizen step mash.

I can recommend the 5star elements and guards. I've used BP tunnel screw connectors on mine. One thing to take into consideration is a drainhole on the guard in the event that the thread leaks internally. I've cut a slot from the bottom of the seal of mine. Be sure to mention this to the electrician when he wires them up, yeah?

Good luck with the build. It's pretty much how I built my controller and was great fun and a learning experience to boot. Just seek help so you don't get a boot.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

I am not sure if i would be pumping 24A thru 2.5mm

anything 20A and above really needs 4mm


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## TheWiggman (6/12/15)

Them's fightin' words Stu


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

Dont make me break out AS/NZS 3000:2000


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## Logan_01 (6/12/15)

As3008.1 for current carring capacity. Dont forget those derating factors. Lol. Good old tafe days.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

Logan_01 said:


> As3008.1 for current carring capacity. Dont forget those derating factors. Lol. Good old tafe days.


I remmember those days.....and the ones afterwards...

I take the female approach to current carrying capacity.....bigger is better.


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## Mr B (6/12/15)

Sorry Gents - Work today, how inconvenient.

For the record:

All circuits are in the garage, which is separate to the house and separate from the house circuit.

15A circuit is new, and installed a couple of years ago for a welder. Fusebox has been upgraded to current circuit breakers etc. (I removed the rusty nail jammed into the old ceramic breaker  - just kidding, and noting this is ridiculously stupid kids, dont try it.

Not likely to be other stuff running on the 10a circuits, and I think there are a couple of them.

Pumps will probably draw about 1A each. Pid appears to draw about 5w ea, so negligible.

I am thinking to run two pids, two pumps and a ~2400w element on the 10a circuit. The 3600 element on the 15a. This will allow me to use just the 10a side if I want to use the rig elsewhere without a 15a circuit.

Would likely run the herms on the 15a, for more ramping power on the mash, and have the 2400w element in the hlt. I could then run the hlt element and the herms on the hlt to get the water up to temp quicker if I need to, then switch over for the mash. Oh, btw will be outputting normally 50l, maybe 75, so a bit of water there. Gas NASA on the boil kettle.

From the above, sounds feasible. I could also put in a pot to reduce the 2400 element draw, but would rather avoid this complication. If 5 star had a 2200w element would be tempted for this, but they dont - and more power is betterer eh - until its not - hence the question.

Thanks, might order the elements!

Please pipe up if you can see any problems


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## Mr B (6/12/15)

Awww fark. Hadnt considered the couple of fridges running in the granny flat which is half of the garage converted. Doh!

Might have to do some testing. Checked out the fusebox, may even be two 15a curcuits - but there is only one 15a powerpoint (i.e. with the large earth blade) that I got put in after the board had been redone?

Will post a photo for information/interest.

To check what goes where, do I just switch on/off and test each point to see what goes where? Any better way or trade strategy to this?

Re the poto:

I assume that N8 is the sole feed to the house, and N7 is the solar panel feed to grid. So P1 & 2 should be to points in the garage and granny flat (either or both depending). 

P3 may be a 15A circuit to the garage, but maybe with a normal powerpoint fitted. Then the '15 amp shed' should be the welder point with a 15a powerpoint.

Make sense to the sparkys (Stu?)


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## Mr B (6/12/15)




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## Mr B (6/12/15)

Also, are the smaller breakers on the 15a points non-rcd?

Is this normal?


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## sponge (6/12/15)

P1 and P2 are the only RCD protected circuits, both 20A. If they're your brewery feeds it should be sweet making sure there's no other large loads on those circuits.


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## Mr B (6/12/15)

Thanks Sponge

Interesting. Does this mean that they will supply 20a?

I thought that general house circuitry, apart from dedicated 15A or higher circuits were 10A, largely due to the standard wire size used to feed them?

Being that I would like to use RCD protected circuits, does this mean that I can/could/should not e.g. run a 3600w element off P1 and P2?

Or use the 15A curcuit?

The breakers were obviously installed by a sparky, is the install okey dokey? Will those breakers protect from fire etc?


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## S.E (6/12/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> With a 15A cct, only 1 outlet ( single GPO ) per cct is permitted. They use the same sized wire for 10A & 15A ccts, but the Earth pin on the plug is bigger so you cant run 15A appliances of a 10A cct


[SIZE=11pt]A few weeks ago you were venomously against advising on diy electrical projects Stu, whatever happened to DO NOT **** WITH ELECTRICITY? :blink: [/SIZE]


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## Camo6 (6/12/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Dont make me break out AS/NZS 3000:2000


If you reckon you can pump 24A through a 20A MCB you might need to break out more than the AS3000. Actually the MAX current capacity for 2.5mm2 stranded buried in an enclosure is closer to 30A. Of course that's not what you'd allow it to conduct hence the 20A breakers. A 3.6kW element on a 230V supply is going to draw a bit under 16A so your load is still falling under the load breaking capacity of the protective device. 
From all the advice I've gleaned (and I ask a hell of a lot of questions), most 15A domestic circuits are run in 2.5mm2 with a 20A breaker (that'd leave Wiggas 5A to play with) It's not ideal in all derating circumstances, but it's safe and to regs in my scenario. And Stu, if you can come around and chase through a concrete driveway, crushed rock and a patio I'll happily run 6mm to my shed and brew you a batch on me.


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## Mr B (6/12/15)

S.E - Thank you for reminding me of earlier posting relating to my question.

However, this is a thread to inform on the subject, and not to slander other forum members.

My questions relate to the capacity of legally installed circuitry, and what I should be utilising this for.

Please, if you have anything useful to contribute, then contribute, otherwise, do not.

Thanks.


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## Camo6 (6/12/15)

Mr B said:


> Thanks Sponge
> 
> Interesting. Does this mean that they will supply 20a?
> 
> ...


They will trip at 20A which is why they're labelled a 15A supply as you want to run lower currents than the trip current. Maximum current carrying capacity of cables varies greatly depending on their location and arrangement. A cable hanging in the air can disperse a lot more heat than one surrounded by insulation. But that's why circuit protective devices are installed to trip well below that capacity.
The P1 and P2 C20's in your pic are combined circuit breakers and RCD's. the test button is to test the RCD function. The circuit breaker function will trip at 20A and unless your circuits are wired in 1.5mm2 you'd probably be safe. But as none of us can certify that I'd be getting a sparky to confirm.


Edit: Flick your CB's individually and use a lamp or multimeter to confirm which GPO's are on which circuit. If they're only on a CB (no test button) get a sparky to replace all the MCB's with RCBO's which will protect both circuit and you.


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## S.E (6/12/15)

Mr B said:


> S.E - Thank you for reminding me of earlier posting relating to my question.
> 
> However, this is a thread to inform on the subject, and not to slander other forum members.
> 
> ...


No slander intended and I’m surprised you saw it that way. just a light hearted tong in cheek pull up of Stu’s questionable double standards. After all where do you draw the line on advising.


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## Mr B (6/12/15)

S.E said:


> No slander intended and I’m surprised you saw it that way. just a light hearted tong in cheek pull up of Stu’s questionable double standards. After all where do you draw the line on advising.


Ok mate, glad we will stay on topic then. Bit of 'stuff' in other threads, not necessary here.

Cheers


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

.


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## TheWiggman (6/12/15)

I'm not a sparky but I would be following Camo's advice on this one.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

Camo

"Maximum current carrying capacity of cables varies greatly depending on their location and arrangement. A cable hanging in the air can disperse a lot more heat than one surrounded by insulation "

Very true

.. you also need to take into account where the cable is installed. Cables in a shed ( in summer ) that are installed up against the tin cant carry the same current as cables underground and up thru the floor.


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## Mr B (6/12/15)

Mmmmm thanks gents.

Noted sparky advice is recommended. Will do this, but would like to get my head around whats going on.

Is it common for a GPO circuit to be 15 amp? Does this indicate that maybe the wrong breakers have been put on? Does the sparky select the appropriate breakers depending on the cabling diameter and install route? Or is it normal for 20a breakers to be put on 10a circuits? Seems like a lot of headroom?

When they do the panel, they certify that it is good and to spec. Does safe utilization rely on people only using common goods which are 10a?

Do all goods which draw more than 10a have a large earth pin (or a 3 phase plug if they are this?) - so that the gpo outlet effectively controls the draw?

Arr, nothings simple. Just looking to understand, not to do any work myself. I value my skin too much


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## Camo6 (6/12/15)

Stu, my cables come straight up from under a slab through two feet of conduit to a double gpo. I did my math. I had seasoned sparkies confirm it. They were originally 15 amp circuits supplying a caravan, I merely restored them to their original purpose after a switchboard upgrade some years prior.

Sorry Mr B for polluting your thread (I'm good at that), but I love these electrical discussions as the theory is still fresh in my head and makes me think. Too be honest, I think far less people are harmed from these threads than some of the others floating around.


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## Logan_01 (6/12/15)

At the end of the day the install looks legit (although now days any power cct or lighting cct must be on rcd). That rule hasn't always applied and does not need to be enforced retrospectively. So in my opinion the cable is protected regardless of the load (max demand by limitation). 
So you have two problems.
1. The 10a power points are only designed to carry and switch 10a. So by putting 2400w element + 2 x 1a pumps you will exceed the manufacturers specs. Easy to swap a 10a power point for a 15a, but illegal for a sparky to do as it is against as3000.
2. The 15a cct not being on rcd. Considering the fact that it will supply an element, submersed in water, that you will be in direct contact with, I would definitely have an rcd installed for your safety. That doesnt mean you need a sparky to replace the circuit breaker. You could use a rcd box (external rcd placed inline), as long as it is all rated at > 15a.

All just imho of course.


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## Camo6 (6/12/15)

Mr B, the earth pin merely prevents you plugging a higher drawing load into a 10A GPO. An old trick was to file the earth pin of a 15A plug to fit a 10A GPO. Problem being that A) you potentially reduced the contact are of the earth conductor and B ) you would load the circuit with a higher than expected current. The former is potentially fatal, the latter is poor practice. Most caravan owners will have a 15 to 10A adapter for just that purpose.
The circuit protection device is there to limit the load. It's value is determined by the conditions of the circuit it's protecting. In the old days it was all too easy to replace fuse wire with a heavier gauge. With new regulations it's less likely that a circuit isn't properly protected but from what I've seen in my limited time in the industry it still happens.

Edit: damn emoticons


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## Pokey (6/12/15)

Mr B said:


> Mmmmm thanks gents.
> 
> Noted sparky advice is recommended. Will do this, but would like to get my head around whats going on.
> 
> ...


It's common for multiple 10 amp outlets to be supplied from 1 breaker, the wiring supplying the outlets will commonly be rated to 20 amps. The circuit protection is rated for the fixed wiring not the plugged in wiring or device.
Current drawn by the device is not limited until the circuit protection is tripped. I've seen lots of 15 amp earth pins cut down to fit 10 amp outlets.


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## rockeye84 (6/12/15)

If you have 3 phase available at your place you could have a phase dedicated to your brewery, as I did. 

Phase1: electric hot water sys + A/C, kitchen/house circuit

phase 2: electric hot plates + stove, bedroom/laundry

Phase 3: brewery + shed circuit

Had the brewery + dryer + oven + heater going today, yet to pop a main fuse on one of the phases, the wheel on my meter likely came close to breaking the sound barrier tho.

Picked the plug & socket up for $100 second hand, sparkys charged me $300 to install it and re-jig my circuits. 

Well worth the investment & beats worrying about what other appliances on or off when your trying to brew..


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

Camo6 said:


> Stu, my cables come straight up from under a slab through two feet of conduit to a double gpo. I did my math. I had seasoned sparkies confirm it. They were originally 15 amp circuits supplying a caravan, I merely restored them to their original purpose after a switchboard upgrade some years prior.


It surprising what you can do if you decide to change the nature of a pair if wires


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## Mr B (8/12/15)

Thanks gents.

Think that I will:

Determine circuit layout
Consider fitting RCD breakers in the control box so that I could safely use it anywhere
Continue to source suitable parts

Cheers


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/12/15)

RCD breakers in the box is not a bad idea. Breakers are only about $10-15

They will act as the primary switch and they are quick and easy flick off in case shit goes down.


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