# Maris Otter as base malt?



## rockeye84 (24/4/14)

Hi all, have been reading good things about Maris Otter, Thinking of changing the base I use to MO from JW Trad. Pale, do i need to change the other ingredients too. Lets say if im doing a pale ale with 20% munich would i dial it back a bit to make way for the MO?

Im just struggling to get the real strong malty backbone you get with a commercial pale ale. Like in LCPA or fat yak.


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## Spiesy (24/4/14)

I'd say yes, I'd dial it back. Maybe take it back to 10% and see how you go.

Maris Otter has a rep as a fairly "malty" malt. More so than JW Ale.

If you're chasing some extra "malt" flavour, you could also look to adding some specialty grain, such as CaraPils.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/4/14)

Just did a 100% MO ESB brew last weekend (courtesy of Fullpint! )...smelled hella malty but delicious all the same =D


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## manticle (24/4/14)

Do a brew with all maris then trick it up with munich to taste once you know what the MO does.

Great base malt.

As an interesting note - maris refers to the strain of barley rather than the level of kilning (as opposed to munich or vienna for example) so you may find some differences between brands but all the available ones I know of use it for pale/ale malt. Thomas fawcett, Simpsons, etc


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## Bribie G (24/4/14)

Most modern Australian "craft / boutique / microbrewery" beers are based loosely on American styles, and UK malts such as Maris Otter, Pearl etc are perfect for APAs, American IPAs, Ambers.
So they work well in the likes of a Fat Yak.

I do use JW or BB as a base malt but they work best in Blonde Ales, American Wheats, Cream Ales etc that are more "delicate".

A wonderful MO if you can get your hands on it is Simpson's Maris Otter but I believe it's imported by Bintani as opposed to Cryer so hard to find. You don't put your location in the side bar, but I did get some from ESB in Sydney last year.

Edit, would also recommend mashing a tad higher for body.. say 67° .. so you can chuck in an extra half kilo without affecting the alcohol content too much.


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## Midnight Brew (24/4/14)

Are you using domestic (JW munich) or foreign munich?


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## rockeye84 (24/4/14)

JW usually.


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## rockeye84 (24/4/14)

Brewmart in Perth has Simpson MO on their website, just gave them a call one bag left.. dibs!.. Is it hard to get usually? Makes sense tho, JWTA for blondes then SMO for pales.... Pretty keen to give it a go..

Last pale i did was..
75% JW TA
20% JW Munich
5% SM Crystal Med
mashed at 67c
Wyeast 1272

with a decent hop bill & I felt it could have used more maltyness..

Do you think

75% MO
20% JW Munich
5% SM Crystal Med
[email protected]

Would go ok?


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## JAM (24/4/14)

I would highly recommend using marris otter as base malt. I have used it often for IPA and doubleIPA. I have only used Simpson..I think.. I get it from esb here in Sydney but they'll ship anywhere.
If you can get your hands on Muntons "Flagon" pale male thats a treat also.
I like a bit of crystal with MO. But I have used a grain bill of up to 80% MO and maybe around 15% Munich, and the rest something else..turned out great!


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## Spiesy (24/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> A wonderful MO if you can get your hands on it is Simpson's Maris Otter but I believe it's imported by Bintani as opposed to Cryer so hard to find.


I don't fully understand that comment.

Most LHBS's would stock a range of products from both suppliers.


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## Bribie G (24/4/14)

Just a conversation recently with one retailer that they prefer to deal with Cryer who are supportive of retailers, and have given the other mob the arse, as Bintani will sell direct to the public (bulk buys). However that was just from one retailer. I think I heard something similar from another very large retailer. Maybe things have changed, certainly hope so as I really like Simpsons, as well as coming from my home turf in the NE of England.


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## Spiesy (24/4/14)

We've had good support from both suppliers.


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## QldKev (24/4/14)

rockeye84 said:


> Brewmart in Perth has Simpson MO on their website, just gave them a call one bag left.. dibs!.. Is it hard to get usually? Makes sense tho, JWTA for blondes then SMO for pales.... Pretty keen to give it a go..
> 
> Last pale i did was..
> 75% JW TA
> ...


I'd try
95% MO
5% Crystal Med
just to get your taste buds primed for MO. I think 20% munich would interfere too much with the MO. Let the MO stand out


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## jaypes (24/4/14)

I have been using MO for about 12 months as my base malt, cant get enough


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/4/14)

rockeye84 said:


> Brewmart in Perth has Simpson MO on their website, just gave them a call one bag left.. dibs!.. Is it hard to get usually? Makes sense tho, JWTA for blondes then SMO for pales.... Pretty keen to give it a go..
> 
> Last pale i did was..
> 75% JW TA
> ...


$85 , wow that exy.


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## DeGarre (24/4/14)

rockeye84 said:


> ...
> 
> Im just struggling to get the real strong malty backbone you get with a commercial pale ale. Like in LCPA or fat yak.


This could be due to the mash schedule and not necessarily the malt. If you can step-mash (BM users take note!) my 4% beers feel like 5% beers with this:

mash in at 55
40mins at 63
50mins at 70
15mins at 77

malty and full-bodied mouth feel.


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## paulmclaren11 (24/4/14)

DeGarre said:


> This could be due to the mash schedule and not necessarily the malt. If you can step-mash (BM users take note!) my 4% beers feel like 5% beers with this:
> 
> mash in at 55
> 40mins at 63
> ...


I can vouch for this mash schedule, I tried it when I saw it posted in another thread. The head retention and mouth feel was awesome.

I tend to use a lot of Munich 1 to beef up my lighter beers, but I have been thinking what my next base malt should be and I think I am sold on getting a sack of MO.


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## Bribie G (24/4/14)

Around 80 seems to be the "east coast" sack price on quick perusal of the dealers. Not too bad considering we're on the other side of the rock. Have paid $70 for plain old JW at a smaller LHBS last year, volume volume volume I suppose.


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## Wilkensone (24/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> Around 80 seems to be the "east coast" sack price on quick perusal of the dealers. Not too bad considering we're on the other side of the rock. Have paid $70 for plain old JW at a smaller LHBS last year, volume volume volume I suppose.


It is interesting the price variations between the west and east coast on some things. Like you say I guess it is all to do with demand because there is a retailer in Perth advertising Simpson MO 25kg bags at $59 :huh: .


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> Around 80 seems to be the "east coast" sack price on quick perusal of the dealers. Not too bad considering we're on the other side of the rock. Have paid $70 for plain old JW at a smaller LHBS last year, volume volume volume I suppose.


Biards MO is a lot cheaper on both sides and from one of the oldest maltsters anywhere.


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## rockeye84 (24/4/14)

yeh ive been doing..

53 for 10min
67 for 60min
70 for 15min
78 for 15min

What I dont understand how the below shedule wouldn't make a thinner beer, as mashing at 63c gives high fermentablitiy right? Wouldnt most of the sugars be converted in the first 40mins? Can someone explain how this shed. leads to a full bodied beer. 



DeGarre said:


> This could be due to the mash schedule and not necessarily the malt. If you can step-mash (BM users take note!) my 4% beers feel like 5% beers with this:
> 
> mash in at 55
> 40mins at 63
> ...


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## manticle (24/4/14)

A lot of these rests can be shortened to achieve the same result.
Depends on results and personal taste but hochkurz mashes for example will work on both enzyme sets and are much shorter.
Alpha amylase works quicker than beta comparatively (ie when either is optimised, alpha will complete its job quicker than beta). Both have preferred pH ranges too.
If your alpha rest is too long, you give beta a chance to keep working, if your beta rest is too long, you leave less for alpha.
My beta rests are between 10 and 15 minutes - 15 is for a drier beer like a saison. Alpha rests are usually around 40-45. Used to be 50 but I dropped it back (results haven't changed much) and I could probably lessen it even more but I enjoy the time away from the mash.


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## Bribie G (24/4/14)

Alpha is a bitch. OT for this thread but when I do a cereal mash with rice or maize and pour some base malt into the thick gluggy porridge to yield a mash at 72 degrees, it almost instantly turns it into thin runny dextrin soup as the alpha blitzes it. Often only thirty seconds.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/4/14)

If I had to choose one base malt ever (you know, deserted island with butane cooker and my big w pots) it would be either Bairds Perle Ale or TFFMMO. Works with American, English and with a bit of tweaking even german ales.


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## Bribie G (24/4/14)

Just bought a sack of Pearl. Actually TF floor version.

Perle is a bit like rice gulls, a typo that strangled many a kitten. I see that Ross still has it listed as Perle on his site.. probably a confusion with the German Hop Perle.


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## Spiesy (24/4/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> If I had to choose one base malt ever (you know, deserted island with butane cooker and my big w pots) it would be either Bairds Perle Ale or TFFMMO. Works with American, English and with a bit of tweaking even german ales.


Thomas Fawcett Floor Malted Maris Otter (TFFMMO) is such a popular malt.


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## Wilkensone (24/4/14)

I thought I was getting some good info out of you lot, now I remember how subjective brewing is and I'm back to square one! 

At least it seems MO is a good base malt regardless.


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## Bribie G (24/4/14)

Don't mention the Golden Promise h34r:

Maris Otter is excellent. This isn't actually the name just of the malt believe it or not, the various strains such as MO, GP, Pearl etc are the _barley _varieties used so the final product can vary from maltster to maltster.


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## Blind Dog (24/4/14)

I'll mention the Golden Promise - love it...

My one desert island malt would be Golden Promise.

Or Maris Otter

Or muntons mild

Or Halcyon

But then there's castle Pilsen ...

I doubt if I could ever choose just the one. It's not procrastination, just some other fancy word


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/4/14)

Blind Dog said:


> I'll mention the Golden Promise - love it...
> 
> I doubt if I could ever choose just the one. It's not procrastination, just some other fancy word


No biggie - why use a big word when a diminutive one will do.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/4/14)

I remember when BB first became availble

What a great base malt it turned out to be.

Most base malts will do exactly what you want them to do...

Jeezuz...You could buy JWM Pilsner & JWM Ale...and the EBC was 4 points different...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/4/14)

Yeah, not much difference and I did an ABA with JWM Pilsner and it worked fantastically well. Just slightly increased the crystal just to make it maltier.

I have an occasional but free source of it down the road.


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## Blind Dog (24/4/14)

Admittedly random meanderings, but mention of Maris Otter took me back a few decades to when the only holiday jobs around were plucking (notice the spelling) turkeys or cleaning out the mash tuns at Butcombe Brewery and sterilizing the barrels. Happy days - perhaps not for the turkeys

Anyways, back on topic, just look up the beers that win/place at the Great Britsh Beer Festival year after year - Maris Otter is a pretty much the daddy malt for British bitters


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## Blind Dog (24/4/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> No biggie - why use a big word when a diminutive one will do.


That's funny


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## angus_grant (25/4/14)

Blind Dog said:


> That's funny


I think you mean "that's titillating"


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## jc64 (25/4/14)

I think you should not use maris otter as a base malt. I'll help you out,send any you have to me and I'll get 'rid' of it. Horrid stuff


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## mje1980 (25/4/14)

Can't go wrong with MO IMHO. I used that for a few years exclusively, when all I brewed were uk ales. Tried a few different brands, all great. Since moving I haven't quite got them as good as I'd like. Even though Im only 7 or 8 kms away I'm sure I haven't quite figured out the water yet. I'm keen to sort it out though, I miss a good mild, have been brewing Belgians for a while. Love them, but the mild is dragging me back!. Ironically my next one will use wey pils, as I have no ale malt. Ah well.


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## Kiwifirst (25/4/14)

Great thread. Convinced me that my next APA is going to have a MO base, dumped on my ESB washed yeast.


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## DeGarre (26/4/14)

manticle said:


> A lot of these rests can be shortened to achieve the same result.
> ...


I nicked this from braukaiser.com and have used it since early Jan, I also get consistently 90+% mash efficiency and I think it is because of the longer rests. Who knows, but I'm in no hurry when I brew so don't mind the longer schedule.


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## manticle (26/4/14)

Absolutely and if you like the results then that's what matters.


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## Ross (26/4/14)

Simpsons Maris otter hasn't been available for quite a while. Nothing to do with suppliers "ethics", it's simply not coming into Australia. The Simpsons had nice plump grains, which seemed to get a few homebrewers all excited, but I didn't find it an improvement over TF Maris Otter or Perle which are the 2 staples of our brewery.

Cheers Ross

edit = apologies it is the heritage crystal no longer available, not the MO. Comments on preference still stand.


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## manticle (26/4/14)

Curious.

I got a bag in a recent bulk buy organised by full pint and regularly get smaller amounts from a supplier down here.

I know heritage crystal hasn't been available for a while (makes me cry). I've not tried the TF maris but I did find their floor malted golden promise gave me a preferred result in beers I made with it to the simpsons (GP not MO).


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## Bribie G (26/4/14)

Picked up a bag of TF FM Pearl from Ross couple of weeks ago, about to give it a whirl.
When Marks Home Brew gets fully set up in the new place a really nice Australian base malt(s) are Malteurop from Geelong.


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## dicko (26/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> Picked up a bag of TF FM Pearl from Ross couple of weeks ago, about to give it a whirl.
> When Marks Home Brew gets fully set up in the new place a really nice Australian base malt(s) are Malteurop from Geelong.


Is that the one they call MEU?


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## Oakers (26/4/14)

MO is a great base malt. However, if you just want to make a nice malty APA then regular pale malt with 20% Munich and 5% crystal is a fantastic grain bill. Maybe a few % of wheat to aid head retention and a shed load of hops and you are done! Save the MO for a nice English bitter.


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## manticle (26/4/14)

Nah. Use it for an apa and save the munich for a nice alt or dunkel.


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## Spiesy (26/4/14)

I'm loving 2-row in my APA's right now - certainly not malty, but I like the lightness and crispness that it brings to the table. Combined with a low mash temp and clean yeast really puts the focus on the hops.


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## Adr_0 (26/4/14)

Call me loony, but I'm not a big fan of crystal in APA's. Same goes for Aussie Munich, which seems to be a bit 'crystally' compared to the delicious Weyermann Munich II. With a bit of wheat (10%) it makes a great base recipe for an APA.

I think TFFMMO is fantastic, but haven't used MO from a different maltster. I like a couple of great ingredients and it works phenomenally well with a bit of TF medium crytal and a touch of TF roast barley in a bitter. I am very tempted to try it 100% for an APA.

I'm still 50:50 on using it for darker beers where for e.g. BB pale will work well. Having said that in a few weeks - once we move house... - I'm going to try it in a stout, e.g.:
77% TFFMMO
15% TF Brown malt
8% TF roast barley

Early days and I guess you have to at least try it. I think it will be wanting for crystal of some sort but curious to see how stouts tasted 150 years ago I guess.


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## Bribie G (26/4/14)

dicko said:


> Is that the one they call MEU?


That's the one. He got it in huge cubes like they deliver fertilizer to farms and served it out through a hopper into a bag in a box, that is if he gets back into the stuff. It's equal to JW and BB for Aussie Ales and Lagers etc. and great value.


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## peas_and_corn (26/4/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Call me loony, but I'm not a big fan of crystal in APA's. Same goes for Aussie Munich, which seems to be a bit 'crystally' compared to the delicious Weyermann Munich II. With a bit of wheat (10%) it makes a great base recipe for an APA.


Agreed. I do mostly if not all mo beers, and use other malts to boost body, while making sure the final product won't be too sweet


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/4/14)

Mvaybe ...just by chance....we could use Australian malts....

Can any one give reason why our locally made malts are not suitable.....


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## manticle (26/4/14)

I was going to be gentle and say there's nothing wrong with joe white but just about every malt of theirs I've tried is shat on by an import. Don't know if it's the barley, malting process or a combo but I don't find jw to be a patch on simpsons, dingemans or weyermans (subbing where appropriate). Never tried barrett burston so I'll make no claims there.
No comparison between joe white trad ale and a good UK pale though. JW vienna and munich are rubbish compared to weyerman.

Quality ingredients can still be ruined by bad brewing and good brewing can make average ingredients into decent beer.


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## MartinOC (26/4/14)

Don't shoot the messenger, Stu:

Horses for courses. Suitable, but not necessarily appropriate/superior.


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## Phoney (27/4/14)

I think Australian malts are fine in beers where the malts are more or less masked by hops or roasted malts, eg; APA's, IPA's, porters and stouts. Just about anything else like as ESB's, lagers, wheat beers etc and they turn out 'soupy' compared to the same recipe brewed using weyerman or english malts. Mine have anyway. For me it comes down to economics. If I'm brewing a beer thats all about the hops, I want to save money on malt so I use JWPA that costed me 50 bucks a sack, if vice versa I use the imported malts that costed me 88 bucks a sack.


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## mje1980 (27/4/14)

I like bb etc for clean blonde type ales etc. but I don't really brew those kind of beers so dingemans, wey and MO it is


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## stakka82 (27/4/14)

Depends what type of beer for me. I prefer jw in aussie or American styles but that's it.


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## Howlingdog (27/4/14)

I would suspect that JW and BB that we get here in OZ would be spec for the Lion Nathan and CUB. Why would they do special batches for a few homebrewers. Back in the Late seventies and early eighties the only Malt BABBS could source in bulk was from Joe White at Redbank- specially made for XXXX. Recommendations from the Maltster were a lager mash.

By the time I typed this I couldn't remember to whom I was replying.


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## Yeastfridge (27/4/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Mvaybe ...just by chance....we could use Australian malts....
> 
> Can any one give reason why our locally made malts are not suitable.....


I try to brew with Australian base malts because I want to support local industry but for a lot of the beers I like to drink UK and European malts actually taste that much better.


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## Kiwifirst (27/4/14)

Spiesy said:


> I'm loving 2-row in my APA's right now - certainly not malty, but I like the lightness and crispness that it brings to the table. Combined with a low mash temp and clean yeast really puts the focus on the hops.


How low? you talking 65c and a S05 yeast or something completely different. 

I am trying to build a recipe for the wonderful Japanese House of the Rising Sun pale ale. This is what got me onto the whole MO discussion.


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## Bribie G (27/4/14)

Aussie base malts are produced for the lager market, with a couple of exceptions such as Tooheys Old and Coopers Ales.

Most home brewers do Ales because lagers are hard.

Bit like complaining that the lamb doesn't do a good Beef Stroganoff.

As someone posted, horses for courses. I doubt if the MO and other overseas grains that get imported for home brewers are even a gnat's bite on the hides of JW or BB, much as I applaud the "malt miles" principle.


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## JasonP (27/4/14)

Spiesy said:


> I'm loving 2-row in my APA's right now - certainly not malty, but I like the lightness and crispness that it brings to the table. Combined with a low mash temp and clean yeast really puts the focus on the hops.


 what would you use instead of 2 row barley?


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## StalkingWilbur (27/4/14)

Used MO in a SMaSH with Citra today. Smelt amazing! Can't wait to try it.


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## Not For Horses (27/4/14)

JasonP said:


> what would you use instead of 2 row barley?


6 row barley.
Or 4 row but that would be incredibly unlikely.
Probably worth mentioning that MO is a 2 row variety.


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## JasonP (27/4/14)

Not For Horses said:


> 6 row barley.
> Or 4 row but that would be incredibly unlikely.
> Probably worth mentioning that MO is a 2 row variety.


 yeah, I was being sarcastic. Does anyone stock 6 row in Australia. Never heard of 4row before.


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## Bribie G (27/4/14)

I doubt if there is any 6 row in Australia, it's grown almost exclusively in the USA and is the reason they went to cereal mashing as the malt on its own causes protein haze.


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## Phoney (27/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> As someone posted, horses for courses. I doubt if the MO and other overseas grains that get imported for home brewers are even a gnat's bite on the hides of JW or BB, much as I applaud the "malt miles" principle.


Precisely, and I don't see the sense in buying & supporting a locally made product over an imported one solely on the principle that it is made here when it is inferior to the imported product. It's a globalised economy, either the locals can ship up or shape out. There is no reason why Bb or JW cannot produce malts that are of the equivalent quality of their European brethren if they put in the hard yards to build proper floor malting facilities. 

Really their only advantage to us is one of cost.


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## Not For Horses (27/4/14)

4 row is not that common and I believe it's mostly grown for feed.
Bribie, that logic seems slightly flawed, we are talking about an imported variety here anyway. It's just as feasible that an American 6 row would be imported. So that begs the question of why do we not see it here?


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## Bribie G (27/4/14)

I have enquired in the past from the major retailers on the site and they state that no six row is imported into Australia.


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## Not For Horses (27/4/14)

Yeah ok. Any idea why though? The Americans seem to like it. It can't be all bad can it?


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## JasonP (27/4/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Yeah ok. Any idea why though? The Americans seem to like it. It can't be all bad can it?


 its seen as inferior to 2row. 6 row contains higher protein therefore lower extract. Thats why it is usually mixed with adjuncts. Higher protein can give haze issues too. Not sure why popular in us.


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## JasonP (27/4/14)

Thinking about it I reckon its for ecomonic reasons why 6 row is used in the us. With higher protein content of 6 row gives ability to use cheaper adjuncts such as maize for fermentables. Maize grows easily over there and cheaper than malted barley.


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## Not For Horses (27/4/14)

Higher protein yes. Barely. 1 or 2% at best. Lower extract yes. Again, barely. 1 or 2% difference.
Those two are also not really related. For example wheat has higher protein than both but generally higher extract potential.
The greater use of adjuncts is attributed to greater diastatic power rather than protein content.
I suspect you're right about economic reasons and I'm guessing that 6 row varieties just don't grow as well here otherwise our big brewers would certainly be using it.
We use MO for the flavour. Big brewers use what is cheap.


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## technobabble66 (27/4/14)

6-row have a higher diastatic power, don't they.
So it's probably down to economics - it allows the breweries to use more cheap adjuncts (eg: corn) as they need a smaller proportion of diastatically active barley to convert everything.
Also, the 6-row is used extensively for stock feed, i believe. So i'm guessing that'd make it cheaper to produce also.


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## peas_and_corn (28/4/14)

Malting barley, whether it's two or six row, is higher quality (plumper, more starch etc) than feed barley so that isn't a factor. People also need to forget the myth breweries use adjuncts to save money. Ingredients is one of the smallest expenses in a brewery (packaging and energy are among the highest). They use adjuncts because it gives them the beer they want to make.


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## Spiesy (28/4/14)

Kiwifirst said:


> How low? you talking 65c and a S05 yeast or something completely different.
> 
> I am trying to build a recipe for the wonderful Japanese House of the Rising Sun pale ale. This is what got me onto the whole MO discussion.


1-hr, 65-degrees. 

Due to my business I've been experimenting a lot with White Labs yeast. The last brew I used WLP008, and really liked it. But you'll get good results with US05, or a similar liquid yeast - WLP001 or WY1056.


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## Spiesy (28/4/14)

JasonP said:


> what would you use instead of 2 row barley?


Pilsner.

I should add, this is all in reference to Briess 2-row.


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## JasonP (28/4/14)

Spiesy said:


> Pilsner.


 pilsner malt is also 2 row.


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## Spiesy (28/4/14)

JasonP said:


> pilsner malt is also 2 row.


Prob a pretty good sub then.


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## rockeye84 (29/4/14)

DeGarre said:


> This could be due to the mash schedule and not necessarily the malt. If you can step-mash (BM users take note!) my 4% beers feel like 5% beers with this:
> 
> mash in at 55
> 40mins at 63
> ...


Going to give this mash schedule a go this weekend. Brewing a lightly hopped session ale.

How do I guess my SG & FG, beersmith2 seems to have a breakdown when I change the Saccharification rest to 63c. Mashing at 66c it guesses my FG to be 1.008, change to 63c the FG jumps to 1.011??

It seems BS2 cant handle anything lower that 64c as a mash temp. Anyone other BS2 users have this issue?


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## Kiwifirst (30/4/14)

Going for a IPA with this project.

4.75 Maris Otter
.40 pale wheat
.35 carapils
.80 Munich

40g Northern Brewer as the battering hop
40g each of Cascade, centennial and Amarilo spread over 30 mins.

Have a London ESB yeast washed from the last English bitter, so going to try that for my first ever recycled yeast experiment.

Looking at 5.6% with an IBU close to 70.


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## Kiwifirst (3/5/14)

Mashed and trying my first ever no chill cube.


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## Back Yard Brewer (3/5/14)

Bribie G said:


> Just a conversation recently with one retailer that they prefer to deal with Cryer who are supportive of retailers, and have given the other mob the arse, as Bintani will sell direct to the public (bulk buys). However that was just from one retailer. I think I heard something similar from another very large retailer. Maybe things have changed, certainly hope so as I really like Simpsons, as well as coming from my home turf in the NE of England.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'mon Bribie, youre not trying to stir up a retailer bashing :lol:
Bintani are a good crowd to deal with plus I also prefer JW over BB.... and Best malts are quite well priced compared to Weyermann...

Andy..


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## Spiesy (4/5/14)

Lookout now...


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## Kiwifirst (4/5/14)

Kiwifirst said:


> Mashed and trying my first ever no chill cube.


Woke up this morning to find my cube sitting at 13c

My ESB yeast ain't going to like that.


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## rockeye84 (4/5/14)

heat belt?


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## Kiwifirst (4/5/14)

I have a Cunning plan, I decided to make a heat source. I have a big thick glass jug, filled it with warm water, stuck the fish tank warmer rod in it, plugged the warmer rod to my temp control box and set it to 20. Cupboard now sitting at 20c 

When pouring the wort from the jerry can into the fermenter I added some hot water first. My brew was already .010 higher that I was expecting so another litre wouldn't hurt.

My first taste test has me wondering how bitter it is going to be, I was aiming for high 50's but it doesn't taste like that at all, more like mid 30's. I used a hop bag I a suspended pot, but I used around 120g of hops and wonder if they got to compacted and didn't perform as they should have.


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## rockeye84 (5/5/14)

Would it be wise to use MO for a aussie style lager? Cant see how it would be much diff from JWTA, which what I have used prior for my aussie lagers, its the same colour etc, just saves me ordering another sack of grain.


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## RelaxedBrewer (5/5/14)

Simpsons MO has a maltier, chewer, nuttier taste than JWTA. I don't think it would be ideal for a aussie lager.


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## manticle (5/5/14)

Might be a bit biscuity which in my experience is not a great character in lighter AU styles.


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## rockeye84 (5/5/14)

Cheers lads! Is JWTA about the best for an oz lager? I’ve been thru a few sacks of JWEP, but always got poor/lower efficiency than with JWTA. Normal?


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## manticle (5/5/14)

Probably jw pils.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

Just trialling my first Maris Otter pale ale. I bought a sack out if curiosity. Findings?

1. It was different, and a pleasure to sparge. The husks are larger and it actually stuck in balls in the mash tun. Physically different than any other base malt I've used

2. It leaves a few fine husk particles that can't settle out within a finished beer

3. It is difficult to drop clear. I cold crashed much longer than normal and it still didn't drop crystal clear. There is more sediment in bottles as a result of that

4. I exceeded starting gravity by quite a few points so efficiency is very good

5. Colour is magnificent, a really nice shade of gold

6. Aroma is nice and 'nutty'. It's similar to an ale malt but 'huskier' and dank. You can taste the difference in both eating grains side by side and of course in final product.

7. It's made the tastiest pale I've made to date, by far

It's safe to say that I love Maris Otter! It has a complexity that has been missing in my beers to date. Bad news is: I feel shedhouse because I just can't stop drinking it.. it's so good that it's bad for me! I just want to keep drinking more. What a great malt


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## malt junkie (13/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Just trialling my first Maris Otter pale ale. I bought a sack out if curiosity. Findings?
> 
> 1. It was different, and a pleasure to sparge. The husks are larger and it actually stuck in balls in the mash tun. Physically different than any other base malt I've used
> 
> ...



I DKWTF happened here I attempted to post as a"1st reply" then iut fails and shows multiple replies, I'll review those before posting further comment.
MJ


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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)




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## Doctormcbrewdle (13/12/17)

PS. I bought the Thomas Faucet' and will do again. No desire to try another brand at this stage


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## malt junkie (13/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> PS. I bought the Thomas Faucet' and will do again. No desire to try another brand at this stage


TF MO is quality gear, if your brew isn't up to scratch; your process, gear or bloke in the mirror have fallen short.

attention to detail beyond mash is essential to a good out come.


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## DU99 (13/12/17)

Simpson's M/O i have used no issues..makes a good beer


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## MHB (13/12/17)

Re point 3/
Do a longer boil, 90 minutes minimum, preferably 120 minutes.
MO is one of the oldest malting varieties still in production, it really benefits from a longer boil, if your wort isn't coming out of the kettle crystal clear odds on you haven't really done the job properly.
Probably more important with the TF MO as it is floor malted, probably likely to be a bit more random in its modification.
Mind you if you have grain husks getting into the kettle, let alone the fermenter and packaging - you have process issues that seriously need addressing.
Mark


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## Midnight Brew (13/12/17)

That is interesting point MHB. I don't use a 90 minute boil, I use a 60 but I do let it settle about 20 minutes and then whirlpool. Always crystal clear wort.

Is that a heat related effect for the older varieties?


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## wide eyed and legless (13/12/17)

I have noticed Gordon Strong has a similar view of TF MO as MHB. Gordon Strong goes for the Crisp MO, of which we don't have a supplier of in Victoria even though it is available in NSW.


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## manticle (13/12/17)

Are you sure they are husk particles in the finished beer? That would be odd.
I have no trouble with clarity of wort or beer (I use Simpsons mostly but have used tf too) but I do step mash and I do boil 90+ mins


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## MHB (13/12/17)

Midnight Brew said:


> That is interesting point MHB. I don't use a 90 minute boil, I use a 60 but I do let it settle about 20 minutes and then whirlpool. Always crystal clear wort.
> 
> Is that a heat related effect for the older varieties?





wide eyed and legless said:


> I have noticed Gordon Strong has a similar view of TF MO as MHB. Gordon Strong goes for the Crisp MO, of which we don't have a supplier of in Victoria even though it is available in NSW.



There isn't a single answer, it's part of a complex. Malt is breed to satisfy the needs of maltsters and brewers, and malting processes have evolved to give us the modern products that are very uniform, consistent and predictable, which let some brewers get away with short mashes and boils (60 minutes is short for both).
Older breeds and floor malting (an older process) yield malt with more variance in the amount of modification, enzymes, protein degradation, glucan digestion..... and flavour.
When we are talking about the double whammy of and old malt and an old process (TF floor malted MO) you will get better and more consistent beer by brewing the old way (longer mashes and boils)
Most of the MO on the market isn't floor malted like the Thomas Fawcett's so you are more likely to getaway with short processes, trade-off is that floor malted and long process brewing makes for more complex flavourful beer.
Personally I'm a huge fan of the TF Floor malted Golden Promise, just for its elegant simplicity of flavour and flexibility in most any UK style beer (killer in US PA, IAPA... to) mind you Mo has its place.
Mark


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## Midnight Brew (14/12/17)

Thank you for the insight MHB, time to try out 90 minute boils with TF.


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## MHB (14/12/17)

Do your self a favour, try 120 minutes first if you are using the TF Floor Malted.
Mark


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## pcqypcqy (14/12/17)

MHB said:


> Do your self a favour, try 120 minutes first if you are using the TF Floor Malted.
> Mark



This is interesting. I'm about to keg my first smash done with the TF MO so I'll be keen to see how it's gone. I think I did a 60 min mash but may have boiled longer to achieve my gravity/volumes to fit in a cube. Probably ended up at 90 minutes, so maybe I got lucky.


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## dr K (14/12/17)

A few points here (and yes I could google but thats your job dear reader).
MO is not "that" old, it was first relaesed when I was in primary school..but not old enough to drink...
It is actually owned by a company who sells the (is seeds the correct word?)
It maintains its popularity because it is pretty much bullet proof for more "traditional" styles.
You should not get a lot of difference between Simpsons, Bairds and Thomas Fawcetts but anecdotally, certainly here in Canbeera TF floor malted although more expensive is preferred (I have over ten years of data to work on as well).
AS MHB pointed out problems would seem to be more with process than grain.
Even with a 60 minute mash and 60 minute boil you will notice just how good it is, and realise why it so popular in certain types of beers.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/12/17)

Yea I'm confident they are, albeit very small. Though I've only used Maris Otter once so far, it's possible something funky happened but we'll see. 

They're very small particles, not many but a few in most bottles that float near the top. Like small pieces of dry husk that splintered off at milling. Nothing too serious



manticle said:


> Are you sure they are husk particles in the finished beer? That would be odd.
> I have no trouble with clarity of wort or beer (I use Simpsons mostly but have used tf too) but I do step mash and I do boil 90+ mins


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## Doctormcbrewdle (14/12/17)

2 hours!? Wow, that's an effort. Though I do trust what you're saying.

Pirate life actually told me to use MO and mentioned Golden promise too so I'm keen to give that a go after the MO now! Specially now you mention it for pales. I was struggling with how they got their base malt flavour because mine was never quite the same. It all made sense when I popped the cap off that first ale last week

I fear the bag of Barrett Burston will probably sit and rot now..it's not 'bad' stuff but the MO is just so interesting





MHB said:


> Do your self a favour, try 120 minutes first if you are using the TF Floor Malted.
> Mark


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## Midnight Brew (13/1/18)

MHB said:


> Do your self a favour, try 120 minutes first if you are using the TF Floor Malted.
> Mark



Putting this into practice today with a house grain bill. Actually needed to spare this time (usually don't bother and mash full volume) due to the extra water + bigger grain bill.


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## MHB (14/1/18)

dr K
Maris Otter is the oldest variety still grown for malting, there have been several attempts to de-list it as a malting grain. The only older grains being malted are some historic Emmer's and Spelt.
Really in agronomic terms, its a bit of a dog, it also happens to taste pretty good and people are willing to put up with its problems to get its unique flavour.
It isn't a modern malt, to get the most out of it requires special handling.

Don't worry, Golden Promise isn't quite as old, but remains the only malt produced by shoving barley seeds into a nuclear reactor and hoping for beneficial mutations.
Mark


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## Zorco (18/1/18)

Thanks for all this knowledge mark.


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## Jazman (26/2/18)

marris otter is a good base malt for ale ales but i just use pils malt for everything the german stuff


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