# Biab Woes



## huscre (20/7/09)

Last night I started my first ever BIAB session and despite my best intentions just about everything under the sun went wrong.. 

My brewpot which I ordered a week and a half ago still hasn't arrived, so I was making do with a keggle instead.

Another store was out of stock of the deluxe burner I wanted so I was using a cheapo high pressure turkey (nasa) burner instead. 

It turns out the turkey burner starves of oxygen unless you have a gap for air to escape around the base of the keggle, so I used some sandstone tiles to chock up the keg creating an air gap.. 

It turns out that sandstone tiles have a tendency to crack when you turn up the temperature threatening to drop the keg and spill hot wort across the floor, so I took a few breaks during initial heating to try get it safe.

It took a good 20minutes extra (than the checklist allowed) to reach 66degrees since I was afraid to turn up the burner to max power and crack the sandstone tiles. The instructions didn't emphasize stirring during this phase, but I did anyway since I was constantly monitoring the temperature.

After reaching 66 degrees I turned off the burner and let it mash, and after a few 5minute checks I was distracted by an unrelated emergency (fishtank overflowing due to a water timer that gave up after a few years of reliable service) and dropped my thermometer in the mash.

After tending to the fish tank I lifted the bag to get at the thermometer and realized the bag had a huge hole burnt through it and had lost all my grain into the keggle. I had been mashing with a burnt out bag 

So now I feel kinda ripped off. I lost my swiss voile bag with mum's expert sewing, I lost my grain, my keggle has black polyester burnt to the bottom of it, yet I heated it slower than the instructions recommended, I stirred it more than the instructions recommended, I don't see what more I coulda done.. 

Has anyone else had this problem? and If so, is there a way I can save/re-use my grain if it happens again?


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## QldKev (20/7/09)

Does not sound like the best day to have.


I raise the water to 69c turn of the burner and then add the bag/grain, this gives me my 66c without having a flame running with the bag in the pot. Not sure what your water starting temp was, but an extra 20mins to get to 66c? I'm running a modified 3 ring burner with a low pressure reg, I get to 69c in 25mins overall. Maybe it's just because I can run mine flat out as I don't have the bag in the kettle. 

IMHO I wouldn't try and reuse the grain once you have a melted bag in there. Just chuck it the grain, its not worth getting sick over. Once it all cools get a scraper to the melted bag to remove it.

QldKev


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## Wonderwoman (20/7/09)

sounds like a bad day  

I've read of other people burning their bags. One solution is to use a cake rack in the bottle of the pot to prevent the bag sitting on the base.


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## huscre (20/7/09)

Ahh thanks QldKev, that's a great idea. Next time I'll do the heating without the bag in there.
Also the cake rack is a great idea too wonderwoman.. I'm sure I can find one of those cheap.

I've placed another order for the grain.. $44 for 5Kgs of grain delivered  at least I didn't have to re-purchase the hops and yeast. 
I'll buy some new fabric today at lunch, and hopefully have another go tomorrow night.

FYI starting temp was around 13 degrees. It's pretty cold here atm.


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## QldKev (20/7/09)

I tried the cake rack, but was still worried about the heat on the sides of the kettle.

I have a slightly modified version of BIAB

Raise 29L to 69c, turn gas off.
Add bag and grain
Stir and cover.
Every 15mins stir and recover.
15mins prior to end of mash, put 5L of water onto house stove and bring to almost boil. (you could measure this to be 77-80c, but my theory is in my case the grain has normally cooled a bit by the time I sparge so the extra heat is ok)

I have a large wide bowl/bucket that I use for sparging.
as seen in pic linky (this pic was my first BIAB, as below I do not hang the bag anymore)
In the bottom of the bowl I have a cake rack with the sides bent down so it sits about 2 inches high.
Lift the bag out of the main pot and sit on cake rack in the bowl. 
Turn gas on to main pot to start heating, lid on.
After 5-10 minutes most the sweet jiuce has drained from the bag, so I pour it back into the pot.
Open the top of the grain bag (still sitting in the bowl/bucket) and pour over the 5L sparge water to rinse any extra goodness out.
Allow to drain for another 5-10mins and add the extra juice to the pot.
I find by the time I have finished sparging the main pot will come to a boil within 10mins.

Boil as per normal.

QldKev


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## Bribie G (20/7/09)

When you reach mash temperature there is really no need to apply extra heat provided you lag the pot with old doonah, beach towels etc. I usually lose one degree per hour. Probably an idea to put the pot on a circle cut from a camping mat then swaddle it.
Better luck next time :icon_cheers:


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

BribieG said:


> When you reach mash temperature there is really no need to apply extra heat provided you lag the pot with old doonah, beach towels etc. I usually lose one degree per hour. Probably an idea to put the pot on a circle cut from a camping mat then swaddle it.
> Better luck next time :icon_cheers:




Bribie it gets cold in some parts of the world out side. We are finding we can loose heat very quickly and we need to put the flame on. Most of the conversion is done in the first half of the mash anyhow isnt it? In Summer we only loose a degree but different in Winter. Chillin in Winter is breeze though.


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## eric8 (20/7/09)

huscre said:


> FYI starting temp was around 13 degrees. It's pretty cold here atm.


Not sure if you have anything big enough, but I have an old 10 litre water container that I use to fill my keggle with, just use hot water from the tap so that it doesn't take as long to heat up. 

I don't add my bag till the water is at the right temp either. I don't use a cake rack, instead I just make sure that a fair bit of the bag is down the outside of the keggle and none of the bag is touching the bottom, so that when it comes to mash out you don't have to wrry about the bag burning.

:icon_cheers:


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

eric8 said:


> Not sure if you have anything big enough, but I have an old 10 litre water container that I use to fill my keggle with, just use hot water from the tap so that it doesn't take as long to heat up.
> 
> I don't add my bag till the water is at the right temp either. I don't use a cake rack, instead I just make sure that a fair bit of the bag is down the outside of the keggle and none of the bag is touching the bottom, so that when it comes to mash out you don't have to wrry about the bag burning.
> 
> :icon_cheers:




Yeah we do that to Eric, but my bag is ripping up the top. Gee I hope it holds out for the two double batches coming up on the weekend!


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## eric8 (20/7/09)

Get Lloydie on to the sewing machine and knock up another one!!


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

eric8 said:


> Get Lloydie on to the sewing machine and knock up another one!!




He probably would sow better then me! Im seeing Neville soon so Ill buy one of him... Just has to make it through the weekend!


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## drtomc (20/7/09)

Katie said:


> Bribie it gets cold in some parts of the world out side. We are finding we can loose heat very quickly and we need to put the flame on. Most of the conversion is done in the first half of the mash anyhow isnt it? In Summer we only loose a degree but different in Winter. Chillin in Winter is breeze though.



Took the words right out of my mouth.  My deck isn't sunny QLD. Even so, with a couple of blankets wrapped round the pot over a 90min mash, I still only shed a degree or two, even on a chilly Melbourne night, when the brew-crew are wrapped to the eyeballs in coats, hats, and something strong in a glass. 




T.


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## huscre (20/7/09)

Ahh I see.. Mash out is going to be the real bag killer since you can't heat for mash out without the bag in there (can you?)
(Man I suck, I burned my bag before even getting to mashout)
I will try buy a wire cake tray at woolies today after I visit spotlight.

As for temperature, I had the opposite problem.
My keggle wasn't insulated at all.
I heated and stirred it to 66degrees, turned off the gas, double checked it was still 66degrees.
5min check: 66degrees
10min check: 66degrees
15min check: *68degrees* -WTF?
20min check: fish tank overflowed, dropped thermometer, realised bag was burnt, all hell broke loose

So in hindsight, either I've stumbled upon an amazing new method of free no-gas heating, or more likely there was a hot patch hiding in there somewhere despite my stirring with a long plastic brewcraft spoon, that was able to raise the whole temperature by 2 degrees. I guess this helps explain the bag melting too.


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## drtomc (20/7/09)

huscre said:


> So in hindsight, either I've stumbled upon an amazing new method of free no-gas heating, or more likely there was a hot patch hiding in there somewhere despite my stirring with a long plastic brewcraft spoon, that was able to raise the whole temperature by 2 degrees. I guess this helps explain the bag melting too.



Don't know what the spoon is like, but I swear by my Bunnings paint stirrer, though the idea stirring motion is inclined to look rather suspect (and if you have no idea what I'm talking about, watch the out-takes from Stardust).




T.


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## crundle (20/7/09)

Sounds like a brewer's nightmare you had, but take heart, you will not be making many of those errors again in a hurry, and the next beer you make will make up for this setback!

As with others, I heat up the water to about 2-3 degrees above mashing temp and then put in the bag and then add the grain, and then stir like buggery till it gets to mashing temp everywhere in the pot. I normally stir for about 10 minutes to make sure there are no cold/hot spots and the grain is all wet.

You may need to add heat during your mash if you can't reduce the heat loss to about 1-2 degrees per hour, but I have found that in Adelaide at least, BribieG's method of using a doonah/sleeping bag and blankets works wonders during winter.

I also get the water for heating up from the hot water system, to save some time.

If you find that you need to give the pot a bit of a hit with the burner to get the temp back up, it might pay to hoist the bag up off the bottom of the pot while you do so.

Hope the next one is a winner,

Crundle


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## crundle (20/7/09)

If the temp rose after, then you had some major hot spots in there. This is why I stir like mad for 10-15 minutes before checking temperature again after adding the grain.

My setup is an electric urn, so I can heat up just by hoisting the bag slightly off the bottom of the urn, using a pulley on a pergola beam and a hook on the wall to tie up with.

Crundle


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## seemax (20/7/09)

Don't add the bag until you need to. As for heating up to sparge temp... lift the bag while you heat or find a suitable cake tray, lifter, etc. 

Althought not a single tun system, I use an esky for my BIAB. Add strike water, wait 60mins, add sparge water, lift bag and drain into your kettle. No need for a manifold, or to insulate your pot, and very easy to clean up. My last brew was around 85% efficiency preboil.


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## dogger (20/7/09)

This is pretty similar to my brewday last weekend... Schwarzbier now with an extra Roasty Flavour.... This was about my 10th BIAB - and this time forgot the cake rake (these definitely work!).... Not sure if the Burn out happened during heating of water + grain (this is my normal process - and no problems with cake rake installed) - or during mash out - but when time to raise the Bag, all became obvious.

Decided to keep the batch (after musings), so "sparged" out the kettle using some leftover voile as a strainer into a double fermenter vat... (if Hot Side Aeration does exist, this'll find it!)... Left for a while, and came back to find the fermenter tap open (duh!), and several litres of Hot Liquor on the shed floor.

Salvaged what was left, brewed, and result (pitched on a cake of Wyeast Urquell) is in primary now. Ended up losing about 4 litres from Target Volume (seemed like a lot more spread on the floor!)

Interestingly - this additional process has lifted my "normal" brewhouse Efficiency by at least 10 points.... (Unless the "burning" has contributed to some unfermentables??) - I have a final FG of 1.066; initial target was around 1.055


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## Bribie G (20/7/09)

Katie said:


> Bribie it gets cold in some parts of the world out side. We are finding we can loose heat very quickly and we need to put the flame on. Most of the conversion is done in the first half of the mash anyhow isnt it? In Summer we only loose a degree but different in Winter. Chillin in Winter is breeze though.



Currently 8 degrees / 19 degrees so hardly a heat wave. Pollux in Sunny Sydney (brrrr) does ok with insulation only. However, yes I can cool down overnight in the cube now and that's a bonus.


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

BribieG said:


> Currently 8 degrees / 19 degrees so hardly a heat wave. Pollux in Sunny Sydney (brrrr) does ok with insulation only. However, yes I can cool down overnight in the cube now and that's a bonus.




We brew outside in the elements...


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## QldKev (20/7/09)

Katie said:


> We brew outside in the elements...



lol I had to rough it, I started a brew the other day at 7am; and the temp gauge out on my back patio (brew area) said it was just 14... Brrrrr.

QldKev


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

Nice and warm when the boil is on though!


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## cdbrown (20/7/09)

Katie - have a chat to Nev about borrowing a bag for the weekend.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/7/09)

If you need to add heat when the bag is in the pot - all yo have to do is keep the burner turned on relatively low and stir the bloody thing. CONSTANTLY

A cake rack or whatnot can give you extra security, but you don't need it if you are willing to put in the effort to stir it, and you have the patience to not compulsively turn your burner up to flat out.

Adding a degree or two during the mash to bring the heat back up - if you do lose enough to warrant it of course - should take maybe a minute or two, and maybe 10-15 minutes to bring mash temp up to sparge temp.


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## huscre (20/7/09)

Cool. I just got back from the stores with: 
- 1.5m of swiss voile from spotlight ($10.50), 
- cake cooling rack from woolies (~$8.00), and
- a paint stirrer (jiant potato masher) from bunnings (was ~$9.50 but it had no price tag so they sold it for $6.50 to speed up the line)

Thanks for all the positive feedback.. I'll try again tomorrow night if my grain arrives in time.
One of these days I'm gonna make a homebrew that people enjoy drinking.. one day..


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

huscre said:


> Cool. I just got back from the stores with:
> - 1.5m of swiss voile from spotlight ($10.50),
> - cake cooling rack from woolies (~$8.00), and
> - a paint stirrer (jiant potato masher) from bunnings (was ~$9.50 but it had no price tag so they sold it for $6.50 to speed up the line)
> ...




Thate will be before you know it.... though Im finding Im becoming more and more critical of my beer.


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## eamonnfoley (20/7/09)

huscre said:


> Last night I started my first ever BIAB session and despite my best intentions just about everything under the sun went wrong..
> 
> My brewpot which I ordered a week and a half ago still hasn't arrived, so I was making do with a keggle instead.
> 
> ...



Looks like most of your problems are the type that will not reoccur (fishtank, tiles etc). I dont use a cake stand, but find with a fairly large brewpot (50L) and a nasa burner, that I do not need a cake stand. It keeps the bag off the bottom. Might also have something to do with having a heavy duty, good quality brewpot (Robinox) that disperses the heat evenly.

You'll look back and laugh at this :lol:


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## Renegade (20/7/09)

Yea, your next beer is going to be awesome, probably the best one youve ever made. We all screw up on something from time to time. 

:icon_offtopic: For example, my kitchen floor saw three litres of a Porter puddle yesterday afternoon ! Someone (me) left a racking process unattended. The floor's so sticky now it's like being in a strip club. 

Anyway, good luck, I'm sure your next brew will be fine. Let us know of your successes (and eventually how the beers tastes)


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## eamonnfoley (20/7/09)

Renegade said:


> The floor's so sticky now it's like being in a strip club.



A strip club with good beer - now your talking!


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## troopa (20/7/09)

Gee i wish i could only drop 3 degrees when i add grain.. strike temp of 71C stir like buggery for 5 mins, i hit 65C and it was 16C outside and the grains stored where its about 13C atm

CBF raising the temp so i just left it
lost 2.5C over the hour .. its still going better then drinking the Tooheys New i was on Saturday (maybe the extremely shocking hang over had something to do with not really giving a rats LOL ) but in the end its always going to better then commercial crap and cans of goop

You learn from your mistakes except when hung over 

Tom


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## pdilley (20/7/09)

I feel your pain. If you could take sound recordings of everyone who has done something new like AG brewing for the first time and spliced it together. You'd have hours long rolling of obscenities that would make a whore blush and a priest drop dead on the spot 


It gets a lot better, trust me 

Keep on brewing!

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Thanks for the positive words guys,

I was hoping to make a big comeback post today with stories of epic success, but unfortunately my replacement grain didn't arrive in the post this morning.

The order included express post delivery which has always taken a day in the past from this supplier (which was why I was ok with paying the inflated prices). 
I placed the order before start of business yesterday so I thought I'd surely get it today. I also made cancellations in my shedule to free tonight up for brewing, but nothing arrived this morning. Don't you hate it when you fork out the cash for express post and the shop CBF posting it, or even emailing you to say there'll be a delay? Not happy Jan!

I guess before I'm labelled a loose cannon who gets his knickers in a knot over the smallest of delays I should point out that I'm flying off overseas this friday, hence my haste and impatience. I really want to have something fermenting while I'm gone since I've been out of tasty homebrew for a few weeks now (enough to make any of us grumpy) and quality retail beers are damn expensive! 

Now it looks like I'll either be pulling an all-nighter before I fly out, or leaving my cracked grain to degrade while I'm away.

Just for future reference, can anyone recommend a reliable, affordable online source for grain? I'd love to support my LHBS, but I'm still waiting on some yeast I ordered a week and a half ago from them so I'm reluctant to rely on them ordering in my grain.


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## cdbrown (21/7/09)

Craftbrewer has been great for communications and posting on time. Ross and his team do a great job. Give him a call when you order to see if he can post it out that day.

I do try and get most of my stuff from Gryphon Brewing which I guess is my LHBS (local home brew shed) - not needed anything posted from Nev. But the post would take a while being on the other side of aus.

Did you contact the supplier about the order to find out where it is? How long will you be away?


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Lol. Actually it was craftbrewer I was dealing with. They appear to have the widest variety of ingredients.

I sent them an email this morning to ask if they had shipped the order and they said they are closed on Mondays and will post it today.
I wouldn't mention names if I was badmouthing them, but shops closing on weekdays is okay in my books. Means they can stay open on weekends when locals actually have time to visit them.
Sucks for me since I have no grain, but at least now I know their policy now and that they aren't slackers.

I'll be heading off for a bit over 2 weeks. Doing the Top Gear thing and riding motorbikes across vietnam


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/7/09)

huscre said:


> I'll be heading off for a bit over 2 weeks. Doing the Top Gear thing and riding motorbikes across vietnam


 :icon_offtopic: I think you mean avoiding trucks , buss's and Hondas with 5 people on them, not to mention the holes in the "road".Crazy place but I love it. Make sure you check out Lousieanne (sp?) brew house in Nha Trang.Park your Honda right at the front door.
GB


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## huscre (21/7/09)

:icon_offtopic: Thanks for the tip. I'll add it to the list.. Bia Hoi!


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## Maxt (21/7/09)

huscre said:


> Cool. I just got back from the stores with:
> - 1.5m of swiss voile from spotlight ($10.50),
> - cake cooling rack from woolies (~$8.00), and
> - a paint stirrer (jiant potato masher) from bunnings (was ~$9.50 but it had no price tag so they sold it for $6.50 to speed up the line)



On top of the first bag and all the effort etc, would a mash tun have been that much more hassle and expense?


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## eric8 (21/7/09)

Maxt said:


> On top of the first bag and all the effort etc, would a mash tun have been that much more hassle and expense?


You don't think that an esky would have been more than that??
If he wants to try BIAB, whats the big deal??? Let him make his beer anyway he wants.


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Hey Maxt I'm currently doing BIAB because it's the only way I can make beer in time before I leave to go overseas. I bought most of the initial equipment before I had committed to raising funds for a HERMS setup.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with BIAB. My goals are fairly modest. I'd like to make beer that tastes as good as the beer you can make at thebeerfactory or u-brew-it stores. So far I've made 2 batches at thebeerfactory that tasted great (better than the beers they were trying to clone in my opinion) and since their recipes aren't even partial grain, I'm hoping I can make beer of equal or better quality by going AG.

I am determined to make good beer that isn't overcarbonated, that doesn't have half an inch of sediment on the bottom of each stubbie, that doesn't smell like feet. I have sold heaps of old stuff on eBay to raise funds for an all grain Stainless Steel HERMS setup. The money is in the bank but unfortunately the store I want to buy my stuff from is REALLY slow and I'm still waiting on a brew kettle I ordered from them 2 weeks ago. I'm reluctant to buy the rest of the setup from them while they are still stringing me out on my initial order.

Hence BIAB is where it's at for now. Who knows, if this batch turns out well enough I may save my dosh and cancel the HERMS project alltogether.


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## peas_and_corn (21/7/09)

huscre said:


> Just for future reference, can anyone recommend a reliable, affordable online source for grain? I'd love to support my LHBS, but I'm still waiting on some yeast I ordered a week and a half ago from them so I'm reluctant to rely on them ordering in my grain.



You need a cheaper store, because when I read



huscre said:


> I've placed another order for the grain.. $44 for 5Kgs of grain delivered  at least I didn't have to re-purchase the hops and yeast.
> I'll buy some new fabric today at lunch, and hopefully have another go tomorrow night.



My response was 'wut' :blink: 


I, like the others recommend Craftbrewer- good service and much cheaper prices. Dang, you should be getting a lot more than 5kg of grain for $44!


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## Maxt (21/7/09)

More power to you Huscre, it sounds like you have a solid plan. The funny thing about brewing (I have found) is that the more good stuff you are exposed to, the higher your standards become. Many (most?) of us started on Cooper's kits fermented at waay above 18 degrees and thought the beer was just fine! This is another reason to join a club, it expands not only what you know, but what you think is 'good'. Mind you, if you like the product you get from BIAB, and it is everything you are looking for, why go any further? On the other hand, most good brewers I know are always looking to brew better beers.
I started AG via BIAB, but until I taste some award winning examples Iam not convinced that it is equal to conventional mashed beer. I hope to see some BIAB at the Nats later this year, and am happy to be proved wrong! It's all about good beer.


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## reviled (21/7/09)

Maxt said:


> I started AG via BIAB, but until I taste some award winning examples Iam not convinced that it is equal to conventional mashed beer.



I disagree with you here, I think starting out in BIAB is just like starting out with conventional mashed beer, youre not going to make a perfect beer first time! You need to make finetune the process before you will start to get good consistent results..

Im entering a beer into the NZ NHC and I dont feel that I will be disadvantaged by it being a BIAB beer :icon_cheers:


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## Maxt (21/7/09)

reviled said:


> I disagree with you here, I think starting out in BIAB is just like starting out with conventional mashed beer, ....


...if you are mashing at much higher L:G ratio and getting a highly dextrinous wort.

I put out the challenge last year to hear from any award winning BIAB'ers to come forward. None (to my knowledge) every have. I am sure it possible, especially in heavier beers (stouts etc), but I would love to know if any BIAB beers have won in light lager catagories in major competition.

And before any fervent BIAB;s jump in...if you love the beer you make, I don't have any problem at all. What I do have a problem with is the contention that it is the equal of well made conventionally mashed beer. This is misleading to brewers wanting to improve their craft. 
If I am wrong the competition results should prove it.


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## Renegade (21/7/09)

I thought the community had (largely) moved on from BIAB being an inferior method. Sure it's a new-ish procedure, and by nature many people, particularly older generations, are reluctant to accept change (in many aspects of our existence, not just beer-making), but is it truly a compromise ? From all reports, efficiency is equal to 3 vessel brewing. 

Being one that trawls old posts from time to time, the negativity around BIAB at the time of it's inception is similar to the recent threads about Olive Oil in starters compared to traditional oxygenation, despite the proven success rates of the former. 

Very good call-out though Max. Any BIAB competition winners, or even high-place getters ? PErhaps the method is too young yet to realise it's full potential as a valid movement.


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## tumi2 (21/7/09)

BribieG said:


> When you reach mash temperature there is really no need to apply extra heat provided you lag the pot with old doonah, beach towels etc. I usually lose one degree per hour. Probably an idea to put the pot on a circle cut from a camping mat then swaddle it.
> Better luck next time :icon_cheers:



This is what i do also. Used a spare curtain i found in my wifes studio which did not go down to well with SWMBO but it did the job well. I now use an old woll blanket and wrap it around my pot with ocky straps. I loose about 1 deg per hour and dont have the flame on at all while the bag is in the pot. I also use a cake rack that works well in keeping the gain and bag form the base.


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## huscre (21/7/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> Dang, you should be getting a lot more than 5kg of grain for $44!



This is an intriguing post. I couldn't let it slip by because I'm starting to suspect I may be ordering the wrong grains. $17 of that $44 is for the express postage. so the grain (undelivered) is around $25 total for 5kgs. Does that tally up correctly now?

I'm making the black beer as recommended in the BIAB booklet/checklist.

I have to admit I was a little disheartened when my first AG bill came to $50 without the yeast. I thought AG was meant to be cheap. I can make a thoroughly enjoyable stout for ~$12 using a coopers can and a few random household fermentables. The bill for a 60minute IPA I'm planning is >$100!

Hopefully with more experience I'll get a feel for what to buy in 25KG bags and not end up with 24.9KG of <insert rare specialty malt here> sitting around for the next 5 years.


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## Renegade (21/7/09)

Dave's Home Brew & Absolute Home Brew both do free delivery for orders over $100 (to Sydney Metro area at least - may differ for W'gong customers).

EDIT - Dave's site states: 

_Orders over $100 anywhere in N.S.W. & A.C.T. Free for the first 19kg (conditions apply)_

Absolute states: 

_Orders over $100 - Greater Sydney (N2) & ACT - No Postage Charged


_


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## Darren (21/7/09)

Im sure this has been covered before, but has anyone looked into the bleaching and stabilising chemicals used to produce fabric materials?

I am still unsure as to how BIAB is an improvement over a stainless/copper drain?

Someone please enlighten me.

cheers

Darren


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## Cocko (21/7/09)

Darren said:


> Im sure this has been covered before, but has anyone looked into the bleaching and stabilising chemicals used to produce fabric materials?
> 
> I am still unsure as to how BIAB is an improvement over a stainless/copper drain?
> 
> ...



Cost.


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## manticle (21/7/09)

Darren said:


> Im sure this has been covered before, but has anyone looked into the bleaching and stabilising chemicals used to produce fabric materials?
> 
> I am still unsure as to how BIAB is an improvement over a stainless/copper drain?
> 
> ...




Maybe you should just brew in a method that works for you and let others brew in a method that works for them.

Perhaps you have some actual information on the terrible birth deformities all the BIABer's children will get in years to come rather than just paranoid internet fancies?
Otherwise I suggest you buy yourself some aluminium foil and make yourself a hat.

People have been using fabric (eg muslin) for food related processes for quite some time now. 
By the way - did you know they've taken all the lead out of pencils?


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Renegade said:


> EDIT - Dave's site states:
> _Orders over $100 anywhere in N.S.W. & A.C.T. Free for the first 19kg (conditions apply)_
> Absolute states:
> _Orders over $100 - Greater Sydney (N2) & ACT - No Postage Charged_



They are both new to me, I've bookmarked them both. Cheers Renegade :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (21/7/09)

Maxt said:


> ...if you are mashing at much higher L:G ratio and getting a highly dextrinous wort.
> 
> I put out the challenge last year to hear from any award winning BIAB'ers to come forward. None (to my knowledge) every have. I am sure it possible, especially in heavier beers (stouts etc), but I would love to know if any BIAB beers have won in light lager catagories in major competition.
> 
> ...



My second BIAB brew won the BABBs mini comp in February. It was a regular strength Yorkshire Bitter.



Darren said:


> Im sure this has been covered before, but has anyone looked into the bleaching and stabilising chemicals used to produce fabric materials?
> 
> I am still unsure as to how BIAB is an improvement over a stainless/copper drain?
> 
> ...



My BIAB bag has done 33 brews and if there is still any bleaching and stabilising stuff in it then I'll walk to Bourke. Erm isn't copper toxic? 
As to enlightening you why would I bother?


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## Damian44 (21/7/09)

The main drawback with traditional brewing is it takes to long. With BIAB as soon as you finish the mash you hoist the bag and start the boil. I also don't have to clean and store the additional equipment that comes 
with traditional brewing. What are the draw backs with BIAB? I dont know having never tried it the traditional way, but they'd have to be significant to get me to switch sides.


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## Darren (21/7/09)

manticle said:


> Maybe you should just brew in a method that works for you and let others brew in a method that works for them.
> 
> Perhaps you have some actual information on the terrible birth deformities all the BIABer's children will get in years to come rather than just paranoid internet fancies?
> Otherwise I suggest you buy yourself some aluminium foil and make yourself a hat.
> ...




Yeah Manticle,

Perhaps you should cover your eyes with that tin foil. Yes, developing world citizens will resort to using anything they can get their hands on. Not sure how many people have until now used metres of CURTAIN material boiled to make food products. Sorry to have intruded into your ideal world.

BribieG,
I certainly hope after 33 batches the curtain material is not still leeching.

cheers

Darren


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## manticle (21/7/09)

Damian44 said:


> The main drawback with traditional brewing is it takes to long. With BIAB as soon as you finish the mash you hoist the bag and start the boil. I also don't have to clean and store the additional equipment that comes
> with traditional brewing. What are the draw backs with BIAB? I dont know having never tried it the traditional way, but they'd have to be significant to get me to switch sides.



I'm just starting doing the full traditional method (and probably not very well) but if you're making beer you're enjoying and you haven't died, I'd just keep doing what works for you. The day Darren actually offers some useful advice instead of irritating musings with no apparent substance will be the day I brew a beer better than Westmalle.

Personally I'd like to see both happen.


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## Bribie G (21/7/09)

Darren said:


> Yeah Manticle,
> 
> Not sure how many people have until now used metres of CURTAIN material boiled to make food products. ............(snip)
> cheers
> ...



About half a billion Indian housewives (paneer, the white cheese of India) oh and probably the same number of Greek Housewives over the last three millenia with Feta and millions of Euro and North americans making fruit jellies and .........

Actually D. has a point, maybe we should just go to *cheese*cloth which would probably count towards 'organic' beer.


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## Renegade (21/7/09)

Darren said:


> Not sure how many people have until now used metres of CURTAIN material boiled to make food products. Sorry to have intruded into your ideal world.



Which BIAB'ers are boiling their fabric ? Perhaps my understanding of the process is incorrect. 

As an aside, why does eveyone jump on Darren way more than cutting down other members ? It appears that every time I see his posts, people go to great pains to kick him in the teeth.


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## manticle (21/7/09)

Darren said:


> Yeah Manticle,
> 
> Perhaps you should cover your eyes with that tin foil. Yes, developing world citizens will resort to using anything they can get their hands on. Not sure how many people have until now used metres of CURTAIN material boiled to make food products. Sorry to have intruded into your ideal world.
> 
> ...




Did you have anything to back this up or are you just talking out your arse? You act like an experienced brewer but I rarely, if ever see you offer anything substantial or even vaguely helpful to the homebrewing community.

You cast aspersions on people because they sell hop rhizomes for $10, complain about the sponsors and suggest everyone else's brewing methods (BIAB, no-chill etc) will turn them into six armed walking chancres. What you don't do is offer anyone your supposed wealth of experience. New brewers like myself might actually be interested to hear something more valid than boring, internet shitstirring. I can get that elsewhere thanks.

If you have some genuine information then please - we're all ears. Otherwise crawl away into your hole, brew whatever suits you and shut up because nobody else cares.


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## Renegade (21/7/09)

To quote another regular here in times like this.... 

WOW


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## Damian44 (21/7/09)

huscre said:


> Thanks for the positive words guys,
> 
> I was hoping to make a big comeback post today with stories of epic success, but unfortunately my replacement grain didn't arrive in the post this morning.
> 
> ...


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## manticle (21/7/09)

Renegade said:


> Which BIAB'ers are boiling their fabric ? Perhaps my understanding of the process is incorrect.
> 
> As an aside, why does eveyone jump on Darren way more than cutting down other members ? It appears that every time I see his posts, people go to great pains to kick him in the teeth.



I'm aware there's a trend to respond to Darren negatively. I've not been around long enough to know the history of whys and wherefores and I don't much care. My personal reasons are as described above. On the one hand you have people like butters who will write you a book on brewing if you ask right, or Sappas who's quiet here but will drop around AG brews on your doorstep because you asked him or Chappo who posts you his old manifold (postage on him) or screwtop with useful advice on mashing or Gilbrew posting hop flowers for the price of postage, or supra Jim and Brendo letting you pop round for a brewday or a million other helpful strangers. On the other hand you have Darren making a pain in the arse of himself and offering diddly squat. I don't care much for mob mentality but I also don't care much for tedious shitstirring unless it's funny and on a forum different to this one.

If he could prove himself to actually want to help others brew better with his amazing wealth of knowledge, I'll happily send him several bottles of my best brew (not brewed in a bag or no-chilled) and photos of me eating a gigantic hat.


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## bum (21/7/09)

Renegade said:


> To quote another regular here in times like this....
> 
> WOW



Actually, it looks like he's inadvertently answered your question.


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Darren said:


> Not sure how many people have until now used metres of CURTAIN material boiled to make food products.



It's just polyester. I don't think the fact that it's used in curtains gives it any extra toxic powers.  

^light hearted joshing of course.

But thanks for your concern.


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## Bribie G (21/7/09)

Renegade said:


> snip.....................
> As an aside, why does eveyone jump on Darren way more than cutting down other members ? It appears that every time I see his posts, people go to great pains to kick him in the teeth.



linky

Edit:
_Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly nave questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation.[9]_

Fortunately this forum has not as yet become sensitized to trolling, hopefully this will not happen unlike some other forums I have been on.


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## bum (21/7/09)

BribieG said:


> linky
> 
> Edit:
> _Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling where the rate of deception is high many honestly nave questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation.[9]_
> ...



I prefer this reference. Prob not work safe.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Troll


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## pdilley (21/7/09)

Damian44 said:


> Thanks for the positive words guys,
> 
> I was hoping to make a big comeback post today with stories of epic success, but unfortunately my replacement grain didn't arrive in the post this morning.
> 
> ...



Could I interest you in brewing a Mead


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Could I interest you in brewing a Mead



Ahh lateral thinking. I like! Now if only we could make that with BIAB... 

:icon_offtopic: I've never tried mead. <dumb question>I do they sell mead at Dan Murphies..?</dumb question>


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## PistolPatch (21/7/09)

Sorry huscre that your first brew day was a nightmare. It happens unfortunateley but you won't go through that nightmare again.

I am also sorry that in the guide it says to add the bag and grain first. I wrote the guide ages ago but did add corrections in post #1 of the main BIAB thread. It is hard to find though. New guide will be out soon with all things like that corrected.

I don't think many BIABers have entered comps and I'm not that interested in them. I did throw a Munich Dunkell into the Royal Perth Show here so I cvould get 2 tickets to the exhibitors tasting . I brewed this beer as a mid-strength and it had a very slight infection from a fermenter ball-valve. It still managed to get a bronze though.

Also, using a higher liquor to grain ratio does NOT produce a more dextrinous wort. The following which comes from this series of experiments confirms that high liquor to grain ratios actually are more efficient and do not prove to change fermentability.

“Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in thetemperature experiment.”

Good luck for the next one. It's not much fun taking one for the team but I have been there several times myself mate.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


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## huscre (21/7/09)

Thanks Pat.

Kudos on a great guide. My wife had fun reading out the instructions and filling out the checklist. 
A great contribution to the community IMO and I doubt I would have bothered with BIAB without it. 

Keep up the good work! :icon_cheers:

My hardest step (aside from not melting the bag) was working out exactly which grains & hops to buy with such a large selection to choose from. It would be useful to have a short section in the appendix for adjusting hops based on AA%, and a conversion between lovibonds and EBC for us complete n00bs. I'm not tryin to be picky, the guide was just so good that ingredients were the biggest trouble I had.


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## PistolPatch (21/7/09)

Mate, grains are confusing! I'm amazed at some new brewers who seem to get a very quick handle on this side of things. They all sound the same to me . It is certainly not a thing I am skilled at. I am very skilled at pinching other people's recipes I like though!

There are some good grain guides around. Here is a nice simple one that I stole from somewhere...

View attachment grain_comparison.xls


I think a great thing for you to do would be to get in touch with the Illawarra Brewer's Union. These are very good brewers and top blokes who love a beer. They will certainly help you out. Maybe PM PostModern and tell him I said to get in touch.

Try and find yourself a recipe that you will want to brew over and over. This can be your base recipe from on which you try out any changes to your brewing procedure. You might want to brew this every 2nd brew or something whilst in between you try out others.

I don't know if there is a good grain shop near you but transport is pretty cheap when you order a bit of stuff at a time. MHB has a shop in Newcastle which is probably the closest retailer I know to you. You can phone him and he will help you out no end and give you great advice. He also knows his grains back the front.

What sort of beers do you like at the moment?


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## RdeVjun (22/7/09)

Thanks PP for the guide, yeah I too made it hard for myself by putting a bag of grain in cold water and bunging the stockpot on the heat. Thankfully there was only a small hole, after that the round cake cooling rack made a brief appearance, then I went to pre- heating mash water, raining in and stirring and don't need the rack, I lose 1-2 degC an hour and use lower, longer mashes and very pleased with the whole process, so much so that I'm no longer in any great rush to knock up an MLT.

Oh BTW, just on the whole BIAB being a relatively new thing/process, I was recently given a copy of "Brew like a monk" by Stan Hieronymus (Brewers Publications, 2005) and nearly fell off my chair when I read (p11),


> "2. Contain the mashed grain in a large grain bag..."


and the recipe goes on to describe basically the whole BIAB process. Now this is from a Chimay recipe and it is actually quoted from another book "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy" by G.W. Kent (1978) and says, 


> "...reflects what ingredients were available to homebrewers in 1978, and the process they would have employed."


 (p10 of Hieronymus)
Perhaps Stan was being a bit generous as I tend to think we would've heard about this process before now, but does anyone have a copy of Kent? Again, its a modern (well late 70s) recipe for a trappist and not really describing trappist methods at all, just bear that in mind- the inference is that trappists probably didn't BIAB!
Anyway, I'm not having a shot at anyone or trying to stir the pot, just sharing what I stumbled upon in the literature. I found it very interesting, sure others would too. Oh, and many thanks adelaidebrewer for the book, its a cracker!

And finally, is it just me using the Ignore User function and no one else? Trust me, it works wonders. B)


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## eric8 (22/7/09)

Maxt said:


> I put out the challenge last year to hear from any award winning BIAB'ers to come forward. None (to my knowledge) every have. I am sure it possible, especially in heavier beers (stouts etc), but I would love to know if any BIAB beers have won in light lager catagories in major competition.
> 
> If I am wrong the competition results should prove it.


I know it is only a small comp, but I got a third in the Hills District Brewing Comp. First comp I have entered. I think TB entered some BIAB's into a comp and got a place or 2 as well.

Manticle :super: , I totally agree with what you are saying about you know who! And the curtain material, well it NEVER gets boiled, so why don't you make sure that you know your facts before going and drubbing on people!


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## huscre (22/7/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Try and find yourself a recipe that you will want to brew over and over. This can be your base recipe from on which you try out any changes to your brewing procedure. You might want to brew this every 2nd brew or something whilst in between you try out others.
> 
> ...
> 
> What sort of beers do you like at the moment?



Good Idea, I went through the recipeDB and found soo many IPAs that I wouldn't know where to start!
My fav. Commercial beers are:
1) James Squire IPA 
2) Matilda Bay Bohemian Pilsener
3) Little Creaures Rogers & Pale Ale
4) Dos Equis XX (I'm fascinated with the oaty aftertaste)

Any suggestions for what I should brew next are welcome.. I have an empty beer fridge ATM so plenty of space for a few batches when I get back


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## Renegade (22/7/09)

What do YOU want to brew ? No point anyone else deciding for you. 

Why not pick one from the list you have just made of your favourite commercials, and try and replicate one of those. 

Keep in mind that you may not be able to do a Pilsener though, unless you have a temp. control setup (ie a fridge for your fermenter)


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## Maxt (22/7/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Also, using a higher liquor to grain ratio does NOT produce a more dextrinous wort. The following which comes from this series of experiments confirms that high liquor to grain ratios actually are more efficient and do not prove to change fermentability.
> 
> Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in thetemperature experiment.



Good links Pat thanks for the update.


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## Bribie G (22/7/09)

This time of year, especially in your neck of the woods, you should be right to make any types of ales, stouts and porters at your ambient temperature and even some 'proper' lagers if you use a temperature-flexible yeast such as Morgans Lager yeast or Wyeast Californian Lager (the one they use in steam beer) which can chug along nicely at about 16 or 17 degrees. 
Another guy you could PM, and he won't bite your head off, is FatGodzilla at Tuross who should point you in the right direction and of course there are mobs of Illawarra guys on the forum with their own club/support group which is quite active judging by their threads / posts.


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## cdbrown (22/7/09)

huscre - I recommend you get on the chat room sometimes as generally someone will be able to advise the grains to use.

I've gone for Barrett Burston Galaxy Pale Malt, Thomas Fawcett Golden Promise and Barrett Burston Pale Ale Malt and the 3 base malts. Galaxy is the one that seems to be in most of my recipes. Then for the other malts to add specific flavour or colour normally just 1kg of each. I just bought enough grain for 8 AG brews with a bit left over and that cost $150 for 45kg-ish.


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## PistolPatch (22/7/09)

Thanks for the info *RdeVjun.* I'll have to look that up and have a squiz!

Congrats *eric8!* You're the man!!! Also the polyester has a melting point of about 250 degrees celsius so shouldn't have any plastic problems there.

That's great you know what you are chasing* huscre.* I'm sorry I can't help with recipes as I just steal them. As bribie said, Fatgodzilla is a helpful bloke and most friendly to correspond with and cdbrown's ideas are great as well. Give them a go. The Galaxy malt is a handy base malt as you can use in both ales and lagers. I am looking forward to hearing how your next brew day goes. Really smoothly eh? Forgot to say before that I was glad to hear your other half enjoyed helping out. Good on her!

Maxt: No worries. Some interesting stuff in all that.

Spot,
Pat


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## huscre (3/9/09)

Just thought I'd chime in with a followup to my ititial BIAB experience, since everyone gave so much reassurance and some expressed interest in how much better it might go second time around...

After the initial failed attempt I went overseas for a few weeks, but when I got back I re-organised the ingredients (as per the BIAB Black Beer.xls list) and had another go.

My only trouble this time around was after the boil, trying to syphon out the hot wort into a cube with a garden hose (I had nothing else on hand). The hose got pretty squishy and kept folding and losing syphon almost instantly.. I also burnt my mouth a bit since the hose wasn't clear and I couldn't see when to stop sucking and start syphoning... I gave up on that, threw caution (and HSA) to the wind and poured it into the cube as carefully as i could.

I left it on its side overnight to cool, and transferred to glass carboy the next day and pitched a Saflager yeast since the weather was pretty cold at the time.

I kept it wrapped in a damp towel for the next few days (at ~11deg).. then got lazy and forgot to keep the towel wet (rose to ~13deg), but fermentation was pretty much over by then anyway.

I racked it to a cube and left it to rest for another 11 days at around 13deg.. Then I got impatient and kegged it.

I have to say this is the best beer I've made yet. I was expecting something like a tooheys old (which i hate) but this is really something else. It pours with a really nice creamy head that I admit doesn't stay around as long as I'd like it to.. I can't taste any of that "homebrew" taste like many of my previous extract batches, A very sessionable beer IMO. I'm dreading the day the keg runs out, which will probably be pretty soon at the rate its going down.

Thanks again for all the help AHBers!


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## crundle (3/9/09)

Great stuff huscre!

I don't worry about HSA at all, never had an issue yet, I pour my wort from my urn tap into a cube.

Now you have been sucked in by how good beer can be made, you will never be the same - have a look at what happened to Chappo!!!

Now for you to get busy brewing up some stocks, because nothing is worse than going to pour a beer from the tap and it blows on you when you have nothing else on tap to fall back on!

Crundle


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## Bribie G (3/9/09)

Welcome to the dark side Huscre, highly recommend getting a hole drilled and a ball lock tap to avoid burning of the tonsils  Like Crundle I don't worry about HSA and also pour directly into the cube. From my high school chemistry days I seem to remember that boiling hot water solutions can't dissolve much oxygen anyway, and as soon as it's cold you aerate it well so the yeast can breed up properly.


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