# Wild Yeast Problems - How you overcame



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

Hi Guys, 

I've been having wild yeast infection problems for the past 7 months. I've brewed every single week since last June and no matter what i do i always get a wild yeast infection. My brew tastes the same and has the same distinct off flavour no matter what the grain bill, hops or yeast i use. The taste is kind of band aidy or soapy or something i really can't describe it.. it's just not beer.

The beer does not clear even with finings and gets very carbonated in the primary fermenter and ends up with a very low gravity. I have no plastic in my brewery and use a stainless steel brewbucket. I either brew in a pot on my stove or in an urn, i do 15 litre BIAB.

I have brewed with other brewers who are making great beer and are not as much of a cleaning and sanitizing freak as i am so i know there's nothing wrong with my process. I brewed with a mate last week on his system, he cubed a bit and i cubed a bit. I took mine home and got the same problem as always and his obviously turned out fine. 

Suffice to say this is amazingly soul destroying for me as brewing is all i want to do and think about. 

If anyone has any insight on how to get rid of this problem from my house please let me know, i just signed a new lease and don't have anywhere else to ferment/brew and have no idea where the problem is originating though it must be airborne. We have no fruit trees nearby either.


----------



## tugger (13/2/15)

Mabee try nochill. 
I had similar problems. I think I was picking it up in the semi open top whirlpool/ chilling process.
I have heard about using oil of clove and water in a spray bottle to spray and wipe around the house as an anti fungal mould spore and yeast killer. 
I think it was 3 drops in 1L of water.


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

tugger said:


> Mabee try nochill.
> I had similar problems. I think I was picking it up in the semi open top whirlpool/ chilling process.


yeah i no chill and cube, doesn't help. Even did my last brew at another guys house on his system, cubed it, brought it home. His is fine, mine's infected.


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

Are you transferring from cube to fermenter or fermenting sraight in the cube?


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

manticle said:


> Are you transferring from cube to fermenter or fermenting sraight in the cube?


transferring to my brewbucket


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

Ok. Try this.

Get a brand new cube and tap. Fill with boiling water then sanitise.

Replace tubes and lines with new stuff.
Clean everything in the brewery with boiling water and percarb or pbw. Pull apart all taps. Anything that will take chlorine bleach (so NOT stainless for starters) clean/santise using non-scented sodium hyporchlorite. Give all this a good soak in sodium metabisulphite solution, then another, thorough boiling water rinse.
Now spray liberally with no rinse sanitiser of choice.
Mash, boil, no chill cube. When cool, pitch yeast straight into cube, lid backed off a couple of notches.

One final question -how are you aerating the wort?


----------



## tugger (13/2/15)

What sanitiser are you using and what concentration. I know you said you are a good sanitiser. I have found when bugs pop up a good dose of hot caustic followed by some peroxitane nails everything.
Edit. Manticle beat me to it.


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

The thing is all my stuff in the brewery is new anyway, all my tubing and cubes and everything. Are you saving clean my urn with sodium  metabisulphite solution? The last cube i used was brand new and i brewed it at my mates house, then cleaned my brewbucket with tricleanium and pitched and sealed, I aerate by shaking 

I really don't think cleaning my stuff is gonna help because i've bought new fermenters and tubes and everything multiple times to no avail and always pbw or oxyper and use star san 1.567 ml per litre. I think my house has something nasty in it.


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

I understand what you mean about house/wild yeast and I (and other brewers) have had similar issues. The cleaning regime is a total nuts one that is simply to eliminate that and any residual 'house' bugs. Sodium met serves 2 purposes - some anti- microbial features but also drives off the chlorine residue. Boiling water is for similar reasons.

It's mostly eliminating the transfer aspect I'm getting at though - pitching directly into the cube. I know how disheartening this can be - this is how I overcame it.

As for what solution goes where - check each item to see if it's suitable for contact with that chemical first, but wherever it is suitable, hit it. I mean walls, floors, fridge, everything.


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

so do you always pitch direct in the cube now? i just really have trouble understanding how this stuff gets in my brew when i'm so careful and clean compared to other people i see brew. Brewing seems to be such a simple and forgiving process for everyone but me!


----------



## TimT (13/2/15)

What a heartbreaking problem. I haven't had infection issues as bad as this. Maybe, paradoxically, a really really continuously clean environment can make room for infections like this? Like, when you've cleaned away all the other bugs that are naturally proliferating in the kitchen, a tough local opportunistic bug can move in and take up the majority of the available space before you do anything about it? So you go from spick and span kitchen to, BING, filthy wild yeast ridden environment even though you didn't see anything happen?


----------



## TimT (13/2/15)

Not possible to brew outside/brew in another room?


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

TimT said:


> Not possible to brew outside/brew in another room?


Lately i've been doing all my brewing outside on non windy days, cubing, then pbwing and sanitising outside and transferring and pitching outside with everything covered with sanitized tea towels to stop stuff finding its way through. Nothing has been going into my house unless it's airtight sealed and still it gets in. 

I have also Brewed outside, cubed and taken my fridge and plastic fermenter that had only had one previously botched brew in it and then been cleaned well, took it to my mates place and fermented and still got the same problem.


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

clintonforster said:


> so do you always pitch direct in the cube now? i just really have trouble understanding how this stuff gets in my brew when i'm so careful and clean compared to other people i see brew. Brewing seems to be such a simple and forgiving process for everyone but me!


I don't absolutely always (lived in 2 different premises since then) but I do almost always.

That transfer leaves wort and vessel more exposed than you think. A properly no chilled vessel is as sanitary as you can get. I also eliminated any plastic from being near my starters. I boil and cool wort in a lidded ss pot but when I had an erlenmeyer, that worked too.

In case you missed it above - how are you aerating?


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

Sorry - you took the fridge to your mates to ferment in and got the same issue or did I misread?


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

TimT said:


> What a heartbreaking problem. I haven't had infection issues as bad as this. Maybe, paradoxically, a really really continuously clean environment can make room for infections like this? Like, when you've cleaned away all the other bugs that are naturally proliferating in the kitchen, a tough local opportunistic bug can move in and take up the majority of the available space before you do anything about it? So you go from spick and span kitchen to, BING, filthy wild yeast ridden environment even though you didn't see anything happen?


You don't really believe that do you?


----------



## luggy (13/2/15)

Are you using bleach to sanitise?


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

He's using starsan.


----------



## indica86 (13/2/15)

I had several persistent issues at one stage. I once threw a full FV in the bin.

I feel for you.


----------



## Camo6 (13/2/15)

TimT said:


> What a heartbreaking problem. I haven't had infection issues as bad as this. Maybe, paradoxically, a really really continuously clean environment can make room for infections like this? Like, when you've cleaned away all the other bugs that are naturally proliferating in the kitchen, a tough local opportunistic bug can move in and take up the majority of the available space before you do anything about it? So you go from spick and span kitchen to, BING, filthy wild yeast ridden environment even though you didn't see anything happen?





manticle said:


> You don't really believe that do you?



Doth not nature abhor a vacuum?

I certainly wouldn't blame a wild yeast infection on an overly sanitised brewery but when you eliminate all the competition then whatever gets deliberately introduced into the area can easily get a strong foothold given the chance. The same principle we use to ferment wort in most cases.

@ Manticle, I realise this isn't the point you're making but recently had 1469 ferment a flask of unrelated wort covered in gladwrap and foil in a freshly star-sanned fridge. (Tasted good however)

I believe there is a similar example in Jurassic Park when the dinosaurs start fertilising eggs too... "Nature finds a way."

But regarding the OP, my heart goes out to you. I've had a lot of ferment issues due to negligence but not to the level your describing. God speed.


----------



## TimT (13/2/15)

Just throwing a theory up Manticle. But.... I think it has some applicability, yeah.


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

Hypothesis rather than a theory and I'm not sure it's based on much more than 'I ate dirt as a kid'.


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

manticle said:


> Sorry - you took the fridge to your mates to ferment in and got the same issue or did I misread?


yeas, i took my fridge and fermenter to my mates place and still got the same problem, which confuses me even more. only thing i can come up with is that the yeast was hiding in my fridge or fv. As i said ive brewed with other people who are brewing great beer and they re way more relaxed wit sanitisation etc. :S

I'm not sure if i had of taken it to his place and given the fridge a good bleach and fermenter a good pbwing if it would have made a difference.

I've talked to a few guys who who have been brewing for like 40 years and theyve run out of suggestions for me except move house! Unfortunately i couldn't afford to move this year, and my place is rad except for this particular problem!

I Aerate by just pouring out of the cube into the fermenter and then shaking the fermenter a little


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

If you took something to your friend's and got the same problem and that something is common to all brews, that something is implicated. Nuke the fridge and if a stainless fermenter, nuke that too. Break apart all taps and fittings and clean the motherfucker.


----------



## clintonforster (13/2/15)

unfortunately when i took it to my mates place i took the fridge which had just been thoroughly bleached by my wife and a plastic fermenter that had been used once. I now have a brand new chestie, and brand new brewbucket, same problem. Brew bucket was cleaned with tricleanium and pbw and then passivated and sanitized as well before use. i really appreciate all your advice manticle!


----------



## Markbeer (13/2/15)

As much as i love star san if i was op I would be ditching the star san.

No good on wild yeast. Designed for bacteria.


----------



## Lecterfan (13/2/15)

I probably still have a persistent infection problem....if I fermented 20 odd litres in my 25 or 30L fermenters...some with glad wrap instead of airlocks etc...some with crazy overflowing top croppers, some with more subdued yeasts then I'd probably have a problem (talking about my location, not the techniques)

I never fixed/solved/explained the problem... but then I started fermenting in the blue willow jerries that have FA empty headspace and, subsequently, I haven't had an infection in precisely as long as I made the change (over 2 years now I think)... I was/am super clean and a diligent brewer...people that haven't had a persistent infection don't get the nuisance factor (pure heartbreak). While I didn't 'solve' my problem, I still found a solution that suits me.

No worries here now. Clean and sanitise the shit out of everything...buy it new if you have to or tevz.


----------



## manticle (13/2/15)

clintonforster said:


> unfortunately when i took it to my mates place i took the fridge which had just been thoroughly bleached by my wife and a plastic fermenter that had been used once. I now have a brand new chestie, and brand new brewbucket, same problem. Brew bucket was cleaned with tricleanium and pbw and then passivated and sanitized as well before use. i really appreciate all your advice manticle!


So the fermenter had one nasty in it prior? Hard to remove some bugs from plastic fermenters.

Clean the shit out of everything, try the direct cube pitch method. Worked for me, worked for lecter.


----------



## clintonforster (14/2/15)

Manticle, 

I've had a few of these posts up in the last 7 months asking for help and i'm pretty sure you've commented on all of them. Thanks heaps. I've read your article on fermenting directly in the cube and it seems so insanely simple that i will give it a try (got no other option anyway!) Though it hurts not to use my freakin' sweet as brewbucket, hopefully this may be a solution for me until i can move house next year. 

I will give it a go with my next brew and let you know! 

When i'm ready to put into the keg i'm assuming that with the lid open a little the liquid should be easily able to come out through the tap?


----------



## Mardoo (14/2/15)

Yes to your cube lid question, but you will be drawing in a small amount of outside air. Given the intensity of your problem you may want to try to following. You could wrap a sanitized or boiled damp dish towel snugly around the lid, crack it open, and use the towel as a crude filter to pick up most of what could be drawn in. Probably wouldn't hurt to put one over the top of the keg as well.


----------



## fraser_john (14/2/15)

Last place I lived at whilst building my current house was an aweful place to brew. I was lucky to get 1 out of three brews to be ok. Turned out the floor in the shed was never lined properly with plastic when they poured the slab. When I moved into this house, all my bunnings click together shelves had the bottom shelf GREEN with fungus underneath. The spores must have been thick in the air, even though the room was thoroughly clean and the tops of all the shelves spotless!

If using stainless brew bucket, taps etc. fire cleanses all I use one on my CFC and conical fermenter.


----------



## manticle (14/2/15)

Hope it works for you clinton. It really is tremendously flattening when you do everything right and still get shit beer.


----------



## oglennyboy (14/2/15)

Interesting & frankly pretty scary thread. I've only just had my first lot of bottle infections and picked up a wild yeast (text book pellicle, mucking around with cherries) and know how it happened, but nothing like your tale.
I was wondering if there might be something external, like if you have a big beard, or ever had a nail fungal infection? Given the common factor outside of the stringent disinfection your gear undergoes is you, is there anything there? A watch, or ring etc.
Good luck!
cheers


----------



## clintonforster (14/2/15)

oglennyboy said:


> Interesting & frankly pretty scary thread. I've only just had my first lot of bottle infections and picked up a wild yeast (text book pellicle, mucking around with cherries) and know how it happened, but nothing like your tale.
> I was wondering if there might be something external, like if you have a big beard, or ever had a nail fungal infection? Given the common factor outside of the stringent disinfection your gear undergoes is you, is there anything there? A watch, or ring etc.
> Good luck!
> cheers


Actually i wear a ring on my right middle finger that turns my finger green? It was painted stainless but that quickly faded to show that it was copper. I started wearing it about a month and a half AFTER my problems had started.


----------



## Mardoo (14/2/15)

Footscray...any nearby industries that could contribute to the problem? It's more likely immediately local, as in your house, but a look around couldn't hurt, fermented products being high on the list. 

And yeah, my heart goes put to you mate. Terrible.


----------



## clintonforster (14/2/15)

Mardoo said:


> Yes to your cube lid question, but you will be drawing in a small amount of outside air. Given the intensity of your problem you may want to try to following. You could wrap a sanitized or boiled damp dish towel snugly around the lid, crack it open, and use the towel as a crude filter to pick up most of what could be drawn in. Probably wouldn't hurt to put one over the top of the keg as well.


yeah, good idea, I'll fill the keg with Co2 first as well, assuming the fermenting in the cube part works out :/


----------



## clintonforster (14/2/15)

Mardoo said:


> Footscray...any nearby industries that could contribute to the problem? It's more likely immediately local, as in your house, but a look around couldn't hurt, fermented products being high on the list.
> 
> And yeah, my heart goes put to you mate. Terrible.


I'm just up the road from grain and grape so no idea man! The guys at the store have no advice left to give me and they've all tried my beer and tried to figure it out!


----------



## barls (14/2/15)

i had one a few years ago.
i hot causticed everything. make sure its above 65 c and the caustic is above 10% concentration
then sodium per carb again above 65. 
and warm psr everything
replaced all taps and tubing.
then starsaned the crap out of the room and i mean i starsaned the room. mop and bucket
got rid of it.
the other thing to be careful of is when cubing is to wipe the top of the cube before pouring.


----------



## Weizguy (14/2/15)

I never saw you describe this wild yeast character.

What does it do to the beer flavour?

Did you mention the age of the Starsan?


----------



## TimT (15/2/15)

He did in the first post Les -

_I've brewed every single week since last June and no matter what i do i always get a wild yeast infection. My brew tastes the same and has the same distinct off flavour no matter what the grain bill, hops or yeast i use. The taste is kind of band aidy or soapy or something i really can't describe it.. it's just not beer._


----------



## fraser_john (15/2/15)

TimT said:


> <snip>_ The taste is kind of band aidy or soapy or something i really can't describe it.. it's just not beer._


http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
and
http://www.bjcp.org/docs/Beer_faults.pdf

point to different issues, chlorine based sanitisers (he is not using) and infection (well covered already).....

What a bad situation, feel for him.


----------



## clintonforster (22/2/15)

So I cubed and fermented in the cube and it all went perfectly except that somehow the wild yeast still got in!!! 

Gravity went from 1.040 to 1.010 is highly carbonated when I check the gravity and really hazy even though I used finings. Tastes exactly the same as all brews I have done for the last 7 months, loses all hop and malt character and tastes band aidy / soapy / just bad and bitter on the back of the tongue.


Seems like I need to disenfect my whole house somehow, any ideas??


----------



## MitchD (22/2/15)

Find a new hobby?


----------



## Mardoo (22/2/15)

Dude, that sucks big fat donkey dicks. Twice.

You, sir, have extraordinary perseverance. The only recommendation I would have is to get an extremely experienced homebrewer to come round and watch you brew and look for holes in your process and at the place you brew.


----------



## clintonforster (22/2/15)

Nothing wrong with my process man, I've brewed in mates systems and taken it to my place to ferment and same issue. Definitely some microscopic bacteria or something involved.


----------



## Mardoo (22/2/15)

Well that's even worse. So hard to solve if there are no gaps in your process. Good luck.


----------



## manticle (22/2/15)

> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1424563695.609609.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shit.

I've one more idea to try.

Grab a fresh wort kit and a brand new siphon. Crack the lid, packet of dry yeast, ferment in cube. When it's ready and hopefully the persistent devil has been kept out, siphon into keg.

If you can get one beer that turns out right, you can work back through process and equipment, eliminating any possibile hiding place.
I'm sure it's been asked but have you thoroughly broken down your kettle tap and cleaned it out?

By the way - what is the cloth on top of the cube in the picture?


----------



## tombolo (22/2/15)

I've had a similar taste, and have poured 150L of beer down the drain trying to isolate the problem. Went nuts on sanitation but that was a red herring. Turned out that the boiler water supply was being contaminated by plasticiser from a short section of (garden) hose used to fill the boiler. Totally undetectable in the source water, totally bloody awful in the finished product. No idea if there was some kind of reaction during boiling for fermentation but the taste was as you described (a difficult to describe chemically, band aid taste that hangs in the back of the throat).

I think you've eliminated my cause by brewing at a friends place but I thought I'd pass this on anyway. Good luck.


----------



## Eagleburger (22/2/15)

tombolo said:


> I've had a similar taste, and have poured 150L of beer down the drain trying to isolate the problem. Went nuts on sanitation but that was a red herring. Turned out that the boiler water supply was being contaminated by plasticiser from a short section of (garden) hose used to fill the boiler. Totally undetectable in the source water, totally bloody awful in the finished product. No idea if there was some kind of reaction during boiling for fermentation but the taste was as you described (a difficult to describe chemically, band aid taste that hangs in the back of the throat).
> 
> I think you've eliminated my cause by brewing at a friends place but I thought I'd pass this on anyway. Good luck.


This is what I would be looking at. Bunnings had a drinking water hose 20m/$20 or bunnings 10m/$20.

Also chlorine in your water can do it too. 

Hope ya get it fixed. Only problem I ever had was from chlorine in water. Tasted like band aids, so watered the grass.


----------



## panzerd18 (22/2/15)

Quarter of campden tablet dissolved in fermenter 20 litres should remove chlorine.


----------



## elcarter (22/2/15)

Lost 120L + over 3 batches recently. It can be soul crushing when your on your last keg let alone out of beer!

Nothing I did fixed it. Replaced tap, nuked with every chemical I could still had to tip each batch after the other.

In the end I ditched the plastic fermenter all is well again.

I know you keep saying your process is perfect but that attitude may be the issue. The result really is proof something is not right. 

Your pretty safe post boil after that there's little room for error. 

Good rolling boil and sanitise the hell out of anything after it leave s the kettle. 

One of these fermenter air filters helped make the process a little easier 

http://carterbrewing.com.au/image/cache/data/Yeast%20propogation/Brew%20filter-350x350.png


----------



## clintonforster (22/2/15)

elcarter said:


> Lost 120L + over 3 batches recently. It can be soul crushing when your on your last keg let alone out of beer!
> 
> Nothing I did fixed it. Replaced tap, nuked with every chemical I could still had to tip each batch after the other.
> 
> ...


Cheers for the advice mate but I've tried every sanitizer and bought new equipment 3. Times over the last 7 months. Right now I brew biab in an urn and ferment either in the cube or in my stainless steel brewbucket. No matter what I do same result.


----------



## Nizmoose (23/2/15)

Sorry I don't have much to offer other than a serious amount of sympathy! Looks like you have covered every possible base and still been screwed, can't remember if you have changed Siphon but maybe that and then literally the only thing I can think to do is to ferment somewhere different in your house, somewhere like in a bedroom but in a brand new chamber or just a foam box that is covered, use spring water to test and be sure (I think you've already said you've tried your mates water?) use a new fermenter if possible and use a new fermentation chamber. Sure the temp control won't be as good but you'll be able to rule out your fermentation setup


----------



## SimoB (23/2/15)

I had a wild yeast problem... what i did was start brewing at my mates place and fermenting the beer there. Then, a few months later I started brewing at home again, and strangely it just went away.

I know that's not helpful but I think wild yeast can be a bitch. 

Is your brewbucket perfect? is there any pitting in the welds for something to hide in? 

Good luck mate, it sounds like you love brewing and it'd be a shame to see you defeated. I think manticle's idea of fermenting in a fresh wort kit cube is a good idea.


----------



## SnakeDoctor (23/2/15)

Sounds like something is in the fermenting fridge?


----------



## Mardoo (23/2/15)

This is like if Stephen King and David Cronenburg teamed up on a movie about a brewer.


----------



## TimT (23/2/15)

I wonder how many other home crafty sorts get this problem? I've heard of persistent yeast infections in cheesemaking, for instance - the one I read about was traced back to a probable source of infection being a sourdough or bread yeast culture.

Do you do anything like that in your brewery Clinton? Bake bread, make cheese, sauerkraut, etc? I know these are obvious questions and you've clearly been through all the obvious stuff before - but I'm interested to know if you might have observed the wild yeast doing naughty stuff in a sourdough culture, or similar.


----------



## TimT (23/2/15)

I'm asking around about this on some other fermentation forums I'm a member of, may or may not help but at least I can try to crowdsource a solution.


----------



## elcarter (23/2/15)

Righto, 

There is still hope.

Your urn element... My mates bru-clone thing he devised had the element within the wort and he had god awful infections. Could aslo have been his baking tray - make shift o-rings. He's not sure yet.

When he ended up going back to his ghetto setup - (esky mash tun) He started turning out good beer again.

Is your element immersed by any chance? These were not metal tastes but vegetative.

If your 100% it's not your process;

The 2 micron air filter I referenced will help you "hot" transfer directly to your FV. Just open the tap to remove the starsan before transferring your wort this should stop any nasties from getting in post sanitise.

The only way you can get it infected is the yeast addition.

I'm sure you can devise a method to re-hydrate yeast and then inoculate the wort through the tap? 

Wish I was in Melbourne so I can drop a cube off to you. - some one else might be able to.


----------



## TimT (23/2/15)

Okay, just some preliminary feedback from those forums and then I've gotta get back to work:

1) A link to a post by a brewer who helped a brewing friend identify and get rid of a similar problem. Doesn't sound like your problem is the same but it has some interesting suggestions for finding the source of infection.
2) Some suggestions by another fermentation person - they suggest 'making a yeast starter first' to ensure you've got a yeast raring to go and using some different sterilising chemicals. 
3) More suggestions that you go over to the dark side, as it were, and cultivate your own wild yeasts/wild yeasts and bacterias and brew with them - ie, doing what you can to encourage the right sort of infection and discourage the bad sort. I think they could be onto something there but now we're getting into the speculative area.


----------



## TimT (23/2/15)

One of the more entertaining suggestions is cleaning with vodka instead of Starsan! (Makes sense actually, high alcohol should kill off yeasts).


----------



## TimT (23/2/15)

The relevant discussions (on Facebook):

Wild Fermentation (several suggestions, some more helpful than others)
Sourdough bakers (very little helpful so far)
Permaculture Victoria (very little)

Interesting that so far sourdough bakers haven't come back with similar issues - maybe it just doesn't happen as much with bread? I reckon you should try to use a sourdough culture to make a bread in your brewery and see what the results are.


----------



## Nizmoose (23/2/15)

Props to you for all the effort Tim JS!


----------



## Black Devil Dog (23/2/15)

Do you squeeze ALL the air out of your cube? And I mean ALL the air, once the hot wort has been transferred.

Do you pull all your taps apart and soak in sodium perc then sanitise, after every time you use them?

These two minor aspects can potentially cause major issues, if not done.

I see you have the tap on your cube. I don't really trust taps and leave them off, pulled apart, soaking in sanitiser, until I'm absolutely ready to transfer from cube to fermenter. 

When I'm ready, I put them back together and dunk them in sanitiser again.

I'm really anal about sanitising the bejeezus out of everything within sight, closing all the doors and windows, breathing lightly, facing mecca, slaughtering a calf and crossing my fingers.

So far it has worked.

Good luck.


----------



## Nizmoose (23/2/15)

I can vouch for the calf sacrifice


----------



## manticle (23/2/15)

TimT said:


> One of the more entertaining suggestions is cleaning with vodka instead of Starsan! (Makes sense actually, high alcohol should kill off yeasts).


Ethanol level in vodka might possibly help inhibit but unlikely to kill all microorganisms.


----------



## Moad (23/2/15)

TimT said:


> Okay, just some preliminary feedback from those forums and then I've gotta get back to work:
> 
> 1) A link to a post by a brewer who helped a brewing friend identify and get rid of a similar problem. Doesn't sound like your problem is the same but it has some interesting suggestions for finding the source


That was a good read, thanks for that!


----------



## motman (23/2/15)

I have a great big stainless paddle that I noticed tiny air bubbles escaping from last brew day, from the weld point between handle and paddle. I figured that would probably get some wort in it, breed something filthy and then Pass it on to the next brew. Just an off the cuff item for you to check. I drilled a hole in the end so there was no expansion and subsequent contraction of pressurised air upon hearing and cooling.

Good luck!


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

Hey Guys, 

Thanks Heaps everyone for your input, Tim Has put in heaps of ideas which i really appreciate. 

Just to be really clear, I have brewed every single week since June last year since my problem started happening. Prior to this all my beers were africkenmazing and i was no wear near as anal as i am now, i wasn't even oxypering or anything, just rinsing with warm water and sanitizing the fermenter and all my beers were the best i've ever had. 


When my problems started I was brewing in a 15 litre pot on my gas stove. 
I have used every different type of store bought water and installed a one micron filter on my tap and when using tap water use quarter of a campden tablet. 
I have tried using an ice bath, wort chiller and cubing using a cube with no tap
i have bought new plastic fermenters and new tubing 4 times.
I then got an urn and now brew using that and constantly take out the tap and pbw it and clean it.
I have tried fermenting in a brand new, stainless steel brew bucket 
The chest freezer i am currently using is brand new, before that i was fermenting in two small mini fridges
I have tried sanitizing with phosphroric acid sanitizer, star san and iodophor. 
I have also brewed on other systems, cubed it, brought it back to my place to ferment (into a never used Stainless steel brewbucket) and gotten the same result. 
When i cube i push all the air out 100% no way there's air in there, the wort always smells amazing. 
The last brew i did i cubed it, then opened the cube to let air in and shook the crap out of it then pitched dry yeast straight in, all under the protection of a sanitized tea towel. i have been told rehydrating the yeast or using a yeast starter is just another place for the nasties to get in and i had this problem when i used to rehydrate the yeast as well. 

Nothing i do seems to make any sort of difference. I could brew an amber ale, pale ale, lager, steam ale. No matter what the recipe, how i brew or what equipment i use the beer always ends up tasting exactly the same. Band aidy/ soapy, really bitter on the back of the tongue and not at all like beer to me. 

I have taken a few samples to grain and grape and they've all had a try and are stumped. Some of them think it tastes good (to which i then reiterate it will taste like this no matter what recipe i do!) 

I'm absolutely out of ideas and all i think about when i'm at work or anywhere is brewing. Least of all this has cost me lots for literally no result and any other options i have are going to cost me ( renting a space, installing a garage out the back of my house).

Totally jealous of everyone that does not possess this problem.


----------



## TheWiggman (24/2/15)

I too had some dramas with my system albeit in the build, and was borderline manic by the end of it until I nailed the problem. Full credit to you for not totally losing your shit by now and that is very defeating.
My particular line of work revolves around correcting equipment problems and the biggest fault in coming up with solutions is not addressing the correct problem. Not saying you're wrong, but think about whether it is definitely a wild yeast that is causing your taste issues.

My last fermented brew had an unusual poly/vinyl taste about it that I thought might go away. It didn't and the brew ended up on my lawn. Everything I did in my process was the same except I used US05 and Galaxy. Having never used either for my own brews I thought it might be one of the other. I cast my mind back and realised that I had some handling issues with the Galaxy so assumed that was what caused it. That, or one of my kids threw something in the boil which I never rule out. Took it in my stride, but had to think hard about where it might have stemmed. 

You're saying you're getting band aid flavours and the problems are recent. My limited knowledge and web searching points to yeast as the probable cause. The only thing you haven't discussed is the way you prepare your yeast.

Dry or liquid?
If dry, do you rehydrate and where/how?
If liquid to you direct-pitch or step up/start?
Do you use chlorine-based cleaner or sanitiser at any point?

If using unhydrated dry yeast then something's amiss.
I'd personally do a brew at a mate's place using their gear (a small simple one for the sake of cost) and swap fermenters. You take his home and leave yours at his place. Do all the cleaning at his place. Put the wort directly in the fermenter and then pitch the yeast dry at your place. Not the best way to handle wort but I've done it this way before with success.
Depending on results, you can confirm whether it is a locale issue or equipment issue. If you get the off flavours and he doesn't, then I honestly have no idea how the issue can be avoided as it is clearly ambient and short of brewing in a vaccuum, I think you're snookered.

Genuinely feel for you. Good luck.


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

TheWiggman said:


> I too had some dramas with my system albeit in the build, and was borderline manic by the end of it until I nailed the problem. Full credit to you for not totally losing your shit by now and that is very defeating.
> My particular line of work revolves around correcting equipment problems and the biggest fault in coming up with solutions is not addressing the correct problem. Not saying you're wrong, but think about whether it is definitely a wild yeast that is causing your taste issues.
> 
> My last fermented brew had an unusual poly/vinyl taste about it that I thought might go away. It didn't and the brew ended up on my lawn. Everything I did in my process was the same except I used US05 and Galaxy. Having never used either for my own brews I thought it might be one of the other. I cast my mind back and realised that I had some handling issues with the Galaxy so assumed that was what caused it. That, or one of my kids threw something in the boil which I never rule out. Took it in my stride, but had to think hard about where it might have stemmed.
> ...



Cheers mate but i've already done youre idea, brewed a double batch on a friends system, cubed it brought it home his is great, mine is not. I've tried every different recipe and every different type of yeast possible, always same result. :/


----------



## panzerd18 (24/2/15)

Consult a witch doctor, it seems to be your last hope.

Are you fermenting too cold? Have you tried a hot ferment?


----------



## panzerd18 (24/2/15)

Dump the biab and do a kit and kilo with no added chemicals. If you still get it at least you can isolate it to the fermenting process. If you don't you will know something is going on with the mash and boil.


----------



## TheWiggman (24/2/15)

clintonforster said:


> Cheers mate but i've already done youre idea, brewed a double batch on a friends system, cubed it brought it home his is great, mine is not. I've tried every different recipe and every different type of yeast possible, always same result. :/


Got specific answers to the questions though?

Dry or liquid?
If dry, do you rehydrate and where/how?
If liquid to you direct-pitch or step up/start?
Do you use chlorine-based cleaner or sanitiser at any point?


----------



## panzerd18 (24/2/15)

Medicinal
"These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors"

By John Palmer


If you ferment at a temperature too low. You could get these weird phenols production. People think lower temperature is better but only to a certain point.


----------



## potof4x (24/2/15)

Hey,
I've had persistent infection problems over the last 2 years or so. The wild yeast leaves the beer hazy, devoid of malt and hops with a rotten fruit tang . When I've washed yeast I can see an ugly brown layer or dusting of black spots. I'll have a purple patch when I think I've beaten it only to have it return. In this time I've 

-moved from a dry dusty town in an old house, to a brand new one to living next to a canal on the coast. The wild yeast came with, and now I have the black mould that covers everything around here making its way into my no chill cubes and stainless s fermentor as well.

-always been a biab no chiller, have thrown out innumerable cubes and hoses.

-tried fermenting in the cube, doing all sealed transfers. I have found in cubes even after filling right on flame out a light black dusting of mould when taking the lid off to pitch yeast.

-moved to using only dried yeast and no re pitching. O2 using a flow meter every batch. I'll use the pitching rates in Brewing Classic Styles rounded up to the nearest whole packet.

-brew only recipes from brewing classic styles to get some consistency in recipe formulation.

In my brewing the last 4 months I think I may have beaten the wild yeast. I read something interesting by Screwtop on here about the difference between a sanitiser and a disinfectant, and reevaluated my process again.
I have always leant heavily on Starsan.

Now
- I use a 90% water 5% bleach 5% vinegar 1/2 hr soak in my no chill cubes, along with any tap seals etc that won't stand boiling.
Mix up 2L of bleach and rotate and slosh the cube occasionally. Then rinse with boiling water and then Starsan. 
Using the same solution I wet down my ferm fridge and preparation areas. Careful not to get any in the beer of course.

-boil all taps, hoses, fittings, lids, o2 stone, rehydrating schott bottle and stirbar.
Including getting a 3 piece kettle tap and dismantling and boiling for 15min.

- I have bought from woolies a carton of 250ml bottled waters to do all my yeast rehydrating to eliminate chlorine in that step that may damage the yeast. I wipe down the bottle with the bleach but otherwise use straight from the bottle. 

The mould is a diminishing presence but is still visible in the krausen ring when cleaning the fermenter. I think throws some hot alcohol flavours, but I have bleached my brewery and unit externally as well and beers are tasting nearly as good as ever.

Hope there's something in the above that helps, keep trying to beat it. Treat it as a challenge!

Edit: trying to post a picture of Sealed transfer but incompetent with iPhone


----------



## TimT (24/2/15)

Are you a member of Westgate Brewers? You could hook up with them and do some of the tests suggested in that link - ie, do a parallel brew with others at your house to test your system. 

Though of course considering the extent of the problem and the expense involved I hope you've been using extract until you've found the solution!


----------



## TimT (24/2/15)

^Or possibly link up with our club which possibly you have already done!


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

i'm indeed a merri masher Tim, heading to first meeting tonight, will get there around 8:30. The collab brew i did was with Mattias.


----------



## manticle (24/2/15)

> Medicinal
> "These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors"
> 
> By John Palmer
> ...


I've never heard of chlorephenols from fermenting at the lower end of the scale. I ferment at low ends all the time and have not experienced this flavour once from doing so. Do you have a source?


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

i'm always sitting at 18/17 degrees.


----------



## panzerd18 (24/2/15)

manticle said:


> I've never heard of chlorephenols from fermenting at the lower end of the scale. I ferment at low ends all the time and have not experienced this flavour once from doing so. Do you have a source?


I read it some where when I was researching clove flavours and temperature. Sorry I have no source as I can't remember where I saw it.


----------



## yankinoz (24/2/15)

Taps on cubes and fermenters, if you have them, are a possible source. Otherwise it's probably airborne. Most of the wild yeast problem I've had or heard of became evident mostly after bottling or casking, and cold conditioning could stop them. In my case I got clove flavour after fermenting with a yeast (West Yorkshire) and at temps (<20 C) that should not have created it. Only a hint at bottling, but later I got a new beer, hefeTTLandlord, and a gusher or two. Then I changed fermenter taps, which might be what cured the problem, but I don't know for sure.

If your problem is evident that soon, there must be a lot of wild yeast getting in, that is, something is "pitching" a bunch of them. Try relocating the affected operations or looking for hidden horrors in cracks and crevices.

I've used Iodophor spry on painted room surfaces after visiting dogs and other possible contaminants. But iodine could stain some surfaces.
.


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

yankinoz said:


> Taps on cubes and fermenters, if you have them, are a possible source. Otherwise it's probably airborne.
> 
> How soon do the wild yeast favours become evident? Your cultured yeast should have a running start on them. Cold-conditioning below 7 C. after fermentation and carbonation (if you bottle) should halt wild yeast activity if you can do it.


The smell and flavour is apparent after 24 hours of fermentation starting. I can do this and yes it does halt the activity but it is already too late as the bad flavour is all through it.


----------



## TimT (24/2/15)

Test whether it's airborne by just leaving out a bowl of wort....! Just some water with malt extract added.


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

TimT said:


> Test whether it's airborne by just leaving out a bowl of wort....! Just some water with malt extract added.


sounds like a plan


----------



## yankinoz (24/2/15)

TimT's idea is a good one. Just keep in mind that an airborne infection should be evident in the exposed wort as soon or sooner than what you've been getting. Since every cubic metre holds a menagerie of microorganisms, but at low concentrations, given time any exposed wort will pick up wild yeast infection, which is why medievals drank their ale as soon as the yeast dropped.

How are your pitching rates and lag times?


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

I do 15 litres and use either a whole pack of dry or liquid yeast. Lag time not 100% sure as I usually pitch early evening say 7pm and by the next morning it's cranking


----------



## jimmy86 (24/2/15)

I'm on my phone so sorry if this has been mentioned, have you tried throwing a cheap kit and kilo down to see if it's fermentation or the brewing process.


----------



## Dazzbrew (24/2/15)

A bloke in my homebrew club had a persistant infection problem, aparently for about six months all his beers turned out shit. He was brewing in his laundry and it turned out there was water damage in the floor/walls of the laundry. He sprayed the whole room with iodophos/water solution from one of those pump action garden sprayers and got rid of the problem.
I would be worried about discoloration of the walls but apatently he didn't have an issue with it.

Another isolation exercise would be to have your mate bring ALL of his gear to your house, sanitize, brew, ferment & bottle/keg. If the result is festy beer then you can rule out your gear being part of the problem.

Conversely you could take all your gear to his house to brew and ferment there too (not bring cube home). If you get bad results there then its your gear or process.

I hope you can sort it out soon mate.


----------



## yankinoz (24/2/15)

Clintonforster:

Whatever you find out, however you solve it, please post the results. Your experience is one many of us dread and could experience.


----------



## TimT (24/2/15)

Fascinating suggestion on the sourdough thread -

*"There was a study on another bread group that would support the idea that once the yeast is prevalent in a local environment - it inoculates other favorable environments relatively easily. If you're making sourdoughs - it's not a problem. In this case - it's problematic. *It may also be that he is introducing the yeasts - sterile disposable gloves?"

Doing a sourdough as a way of replenishing the natural environment would be my dream solution. But things are not often that simple....


----------



## Mr. No-Tip (24/2/15)

OP. Do you have a beard?


----------



## TheWiggman (24/2/15)

Make sure when you crack a beer open clinton it is in a venue seperate to the meeting.
Tasters must then bathe in vodka.
Then burn clothes.


----------



## Mardoo (24/2/15)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> OP. Do you have a beard?


That occurred to me as well, thinking of the Rogue beard ale. Or dreads.


----------



## Markbeer (24/2/15)

clintonforster said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried sanitizing with phosphroric acid sanitizer, star san and iodophor.


I say this over and over, and I think I said it on the first 10 or so posts. These don't work on wild yeast. You are wasting your time with these sanitisers when you have a wild yeast problem.

Try 200ml bleach, add 5 litres water then 200ml vinegar and give it a good soak. Use the ratio if you want to do it to the top, just don't use on stainless.

This smells bad and needs to be rinsed a few times with boiling water. But WILL kill wild yeasts. You should probably be doing this before every cold side transfer.

The sanitisers you are using were designed to be kinder to yeast so that they would not likely affect fermentation.


----------



## Nizmoose (24/2/15)

Just another thought related to one above, try brewing and cubing at yours then fermenting at your mates, if the beer is good you know it's definitely your fermentation and if it's shit you know it's definitely prior to pitching.


----------



## clintonforster (24/2/15)

Nizmoose said:


> Just another thought related to one above, try brewing and cubing at yours then fermenting at your mates, if the beer is good you know it's definitely your fermentation and if it's shit you know it's definitely prior to pitching.


I have done this and it still came out shit, I took my fridge that had just been bleach bombed and an almost new fermenter to my mates place and fermented there, still got the same problem. I'm guessing i should have bleach bombed the fridge and fermenter over ther or done as Markbeer has suggested over there before pouring out of the cube and pitching as the fermenter had been used once and that brew had become infected.


----------



## Nizmoose (24/2/15)

clintonforster said:


> I have done this and it still came out shit, I took my fridge that had just been bleach bombed and an almost new fermenter to my mates place and fermented there, still got the same problem. I'm guessing i should have bleach bombed the fridge and fermenter over ther or done as Markbeer has suggested over there before pouring out of the cube and pitching as the fermenter had been used once and that brew had become infected.


Okay well that leaves the only thing in common your fermenting fridge surely? Tried fermenting with nothing but the fermenter / cube and forgetting about temp control for the sake of ruling out the fridge?


----------



## stux (24/2/15)

I don't use taps on my cubes. I only buy cubes with the bung unbored and never bore them.

Anyway, how are you sanitizing? What is your process? (in detail )

When dealing with something like this, it really does help to eliminate EVERYTHING that you can, and my way of doing that is to recommend getting a Fresh Wort Kit, put it somewhere else, and chuck a yeast in.

Are you spraying the outside of the dry yeast packet with starsan? Are you soaking your scissors in starsan?

I do.

Anyway, I had a persistant wild yeast infection. I still do, but it doesn't affect my beer anymore.

In order to avoid the wild yeast I can not re-use/wash yeast cakes.

I only ever work with first-gen yeast now.

I'll get a new Wyeast packet, i might have smack ited, or not, depends, turn off the air con, I'll go to the dining room table (not the kitchen!), I put down tin foil, I spray the tin foil, I light a large candle in the middle of the tin foil, and leave that for a few minutes while I faff about. The hot draft is meant to draw organisms up and away rather than letting them settle.

I spray the wyeast packet ( do not put it in my starsan jug as the starsan is either hot starsan, or cold starsan!), I line up 4 gamma sterile sample tubs, and then carefully cut the packet open, in a corner, with the scissors which just came directly out of a starsan solution. I unscrew one lid, and hold it with the sterile part downwards leaving it on top of the threads in my starsan soaked hands. I just move the lid to the side, pour the wyeast in, move back and seal a little bit, move on to the next, get that all done as soon as possible. and then go back and make sure the lids are tight.

When spinning up the yeast, I'll make a starter by weighing out 100g/L of DME and then adding boiling water and yeast nutrient and a stir bar into an erlenmeyer flask, I boil everything in the flask. Before it comes to the boil, I put a 12"x12" square of al foil over the neck and loosely down the sides and continue to boil for 15 mins. Let the starter cool in situ, in the flask. The flask is now sterile. Or close enough. I have left uninnocculated starters stand like this for weeks with no activity. I'll even make up all 2 or 3 steps in 3 different flasks at the same time.

When I'm going to start the yeast, I put the uninocculated start on the stirplate for as long as I feel like to pre-aerate. Generally while I let the split come to room temperature.

One of my previous splits has been brought up to temperature, and I give it a good shake to suspend everything... at the ready, woth the stirplate turned off, possibly with a candle lit, I lift the foil, pour in the yeast and reseal. Stirplate goes on high.

After a few days when its ready.... or after a couple of more steps.

I pour my cubes into my fermenter as quickly as I can... through the cubes lid. I do this outside in the open air, in the middle of the garden with no trees above me. I pour the cubes out into the fermenter through the lid as quickly and efficiently as I can, trying not to splash and make a mess. Lid goes on fermenter. Lid is generally covered in starsan foam. or was.

Now, I get my oxygen kit, whose hose/stone has been soaking in starsan. I blow the starsan out with oxygen, then oxygenate the wort. I ensure that the oxygen is on when the stone goes in, and stays on until I can rinse the stone in water, to try to prevent wort getting into the stone.

Lid goes back on. Wash the oxygen kit, soak the hose/stone in starsan with oxygen off, blow the starsan out with oxygen, seal stone in alfoil.

Now, I get my chilled starter. I pull the alfoil off. And then decant most of the wort off straight onto the grass, leaving enough to resuspend the yeast. Foil goes back on. Foil has been held with the sensitive side down the entire time.

Now, I use a magnet to find the stir bar and slide it up the side of the flask... foil off, magnet out... foil back on.

next swirl and resuspend the yeast... lift lid off fermenter... again sensitive side down and not touching anything else... and dump the starter in. Yes... its cold yeast into a 20C fermenter. I don't find the yeast care... (see my Kraussen explosion )

I don't actually have the airlock in place at this time, I have a rubber bung in place. I position the fermenter... get all the heat controls and thermoprobes connected... and then finally pull an airlock with bung out of a bucket of starsan. Its a 2 piece so the top half is not in place... put the airlock in, pop the top in to create the airlock... and leave it.

This prevents the airlock drawing back into the fermenter as I move it about. Also when I take samples, or keg, I break the airlock by pulling the lid off the 2 piece airlock... again, to stop the contents of the airlock entering the beer. I can't prevent air being draw in, but I can prevent anything else, and hopefully the beer is strong enough now, with a c02 blacket and good yeast populations to withstand the small draw back.

No infections.

BUT if I then harvest the yeast, no matter how carefully, and try to reuse it, I get a nasty brett type infection.

Currently I brew BIAB, and I do not have a tap in my kettle. I siphon using a stainless steel jiggle siphon and silicon hose into cubes. The cubes have been pbw'd, then I put a L of starsan in each of them, shake it about, and pour it out getting it on the lids and threads. The siphon and hose have been soaked in PBW, rinsed, and are now sitting in the starsan bucket... they come straight out of the bucket and into the wort.

I don't PBW/starsan my pot. But everything else after that is soaked in PBW or filled with PBW, and then rinsed and then either soaked in starsan, or has starsan put inside and shaken about and swirled to get a good coating.


----------



## Pogierob (24/2/15)

Clint.. 
Do you all grain or kit?


----------



## manticle (24/2/15)

The art of reading has been lost. 1st post says '15L biab'.


----------



## Pogierob (24/2/15)

Fair enough Manticle,.

Clint,

my suggestion would be this.

buy a new fermenter.
buy a new mash paddle or stirring spoon
buy a cheap coopers can and a brew sugar

follow the instructions on the tin exactly, don't add hops for flavour, don't do anything other than add water, tin and fermentible to the fermenter and pitch the kit yeast.

let it ferment on the bench NOT in your fermenting chamber.

Don't use any equipment you have previously used


This may end up a useless exercise, but if you end up with a NON infected beer, then do the same but change ONE thing..

for example - put it in the fermenting fridge...

step it up ONE move at a time until you find the infection source.

If as you say, the infection is evident within 24 hours of fermentation then this is a fast way of moving through the possible suspects without going through the heart break of BIAB loss.

Edit.
If you still have the infection then I you have my sympathy


----------



## Mickcr250 (25/2/15)

Have you thought about trying to starve them out of your brewery? You say you have brewed every week since the problem started and I'm not sure but I would say with every infection the numbers of wild yeast in your brewery will grow. Maybe take a month off and let the viability drop


----------



## clintonforster (25/2/15)

Rob.P said:


> Fair enough Manticle,.
> 
> Clint,
> 
> ...


Hey Mate i really appreciate the help but i have brewed at other mates houses and then fermented at home and have tried in 4 different fridges and 3 different spots in the house. :/ 

A couple guys have suggested nuking my equipment with 90% water, 5% bleach 5% vinegar, but i fail to see how this will stop it when i've gotten new equipment almost 7 times. 

Even brewing at another house, cubing taking it home, cleaning my *brand new* brew bucket with tricleanium and then passivating with star san and then fermenting in the brewbucket in a *brand new* chest freezer in a different room didn't help.


----------



## clintonforster (25/2/15)

Mickcr250 said:


> Have you thought about trying to starve them out of your brewery? You say you have brewed every week since the problem started and I'm not sure but I would say with every infection the numbers of wild yeast in your brewery will grow. Maybe take a month off and let the viability drop


Yeah i've had a few guys tell me that they brewed and fermented at a mates place for 6 months and then started brewing at their place again and the problem was gone. I actually went to a brew club meeting last night and got a few guys to give it a sniff and taste. One guy who's actually the guy who's house i brewed at said he got that exact same smell with 3 different recipes in a row when he brewed in a room in his house, he then moved all his stuff to his basement and has since not had the problem.


----------



## Pogierob (25/2/15)

I guess the point of the exercise was to remove YOU from the equation. 
It is may likely a wild yeast but you are still a major part of the process. 
Might be worth a try for $20.


----------



## manticle (25/2/15)

> Hey Mate i really appreciate the help but i have brewed at other mates houses and then fermented at home and have tried in 4 different fridges and 3 different spots in the house. :/
> 
> A couple guys have suggested nuking my equipment with 90% water, 5% bleach 5% vinegar, but i fail to see how this will stop it when i've gotten new equipment almost 7 times.
> 
> Even brewing at another house, cubing taking it home, cleaning my *brand new* brew bucket with tricleanium and then passivating with star san and then fermenting in the brewbucket in a *brand new* chest freezer in a different room didn't help.


Try it anyway. It's like looking in the fridge when you can't find your keys.


----------



## Matplat (25/2/15)

If you can complete the entire process (from grain to a cold beer) at a mates place successfully, rather than cubing and bringing home, then you know the problem is with the location.

It seems like you have eliminated any part of your process/equipment being the problem.

Matt


----------



## clintonforster (25/2/15)

Matplat said:


> If you can complete the entire process (from grain to a cold beer) at a mates place successfully, rather than cubing and bringing home, then you know the problem is with the location.
> 
> It seems like you have eliminated any part of your process/equipment being the problem.
> 
> Matt


We did a double batch at my mates place, his turned out great and mine turned out drab at my place and if anything he's way more relaxed on the cleaning and sanitizing than me. so i agree i've definitely ruled out equipment and process. I get that brewing is a very forgiving process from the fact that when i started i was really lax with cleaning and sanitising and stuffed alot of things up and all my beers turned out amazing. It's definitely my house. Unfortunately the only other place i can think of to ferment is my mates place, but being in inner melbourne it's not very big and his mrs isn't keen on it.


----------



## Pogierob (25/2/15)

Have you considered sabotage? Have you upset anyone in the house?
The are two commons to this problem 
Location.
Brewer.
If you are convinced it's location then you have to hit it with every thing you have. 5 times in a row, have a beer and hit it another 5 times. floors, walls, ceiling and all surfaces under and over. 
Then wait a week, do it again. 
Then consider brewing, but not in between.


----------



## Leviathan (25/2/15)

Maybe run an air purifier in the immediate brewing area, id be checking your air con filter too, being summer i presume its been cranking.


----------



## panzerd18 (25/2/15)

How long can spores survive?


----------



## mckenry (25/2/15)

Sorry if you have tried this, but I dont think you have. I'm speed reading (sneakily at work)

Can you brew and cube, then ferment at your mates place, without any of your fridges, brewbuckets or fermenter?

At least this will let you know if its a hot side or cold side problem. If its shit there, then its in your urn/brewery. If its a good beer, youre left with fermentation. At least 50% of the source can be eliminated.


----------



## TimT (25/2/15)

I'll be interested how the 'leave wort out as a test to see if it's just hanging around your house' test goes.

After chatting with Clinton last night about this problem it sounds more and more puzzling. Apparently at first it just looks like a normal fermentation with a healthy krausen, and it's only to the tail end of fermentation that problems become apparent: the wort remains cloudy and has an off smell and flavour. (Come to think of it I wonder if it was a version of this infection that got into one of my case swap beers, making it cloudy and preventing it from having a secondary fermentation - I suspect that infection was bacterial).

This to me suggests a very odd type of microbial infection - perhaps a yeast (or bacteria) that that lives off other yeasts? Or that thrives in the conditions _created_ by a yeast fermentation, eg, likes to eat alcohol. Anyway, the 'bowl of fresh wort' test might help. I suppose you could also leave a bowl of freshly-fermented ale, preferably a mate's homebrew, out (with a plastic covering to deter insects) and see what _that _results in.

If the fresh wort catches the bad infection, we'll have some indication that my theory is wrong (wouldn't be the first time). If it doesn't, but the bowl of fermented ale catches the bad infection, perhaps we could start treating it as a killer yeast, or an infection attracted to the products of yeast fermentation. In this second case, the suggestion that you stop brewing for a period (ie, stop feeding the beast) seems to make some sense.

The second thing that struck me is the description of Clinton's backyard where he's been brewing - bare concrete. This set me wondering again about my pet theory that maybe such infections tend to arise in situations where natural yeasts have been got rid of, so there is no competition for a strong adaptable yeast that floats by (the microbial equivalent of an invasive weed, I suppose). An easy way to introduce some natural competition might be to get some pot plants, especially those that flower and fruit frequently - that way you'll attract not only natural yeasts, but insects who will, in turn, spread more yeast about. And of course you could cultivate a sourdough culture, for the same reason.

Could be wrong. But first step is to see what the 'fresh wort' test and 'freshly fermented ale' tests result in.


----------



## Nizmoose (25/2/15)

Looks like you've got this nailed down to your house. I'd be researching (you probably already have) what to clean a whole house with and what measures to take to maintain a wild yeast 'free' environment. As others have said I'd go over the whole house, not brew for a while, go over it again, then throw together a kit beer.


----------



## Pogierob (25/2/15)

Just a thought, I'm assuming you are using temp control. Have you calibrated your temp control?

Just wondering if your (STC-1000) as an example isn't out and you are fermenting at a much higher temp than desired for the yeast?

Sorry for the 101 questions, I just feel for you and your dilemma.


----------



## stux (25/2/15)

Still haven't detailed *how* you are sanitizing...


----------



## Markbeer (26/2/15)

If it is your house why don't you split a batch into 6 small ones and ferment in various locations.

I would be surprised if all became infected.

You would use dry yeast and pitch equally. This may give an indicator as to the source. Ie 1 bad and 2 not so bad and 3 fine.


----------



## Dazzbrew (26/2/15)

Leviathan said:


> Maybe run an air purifier in the immediate brewing area, id be checking your air con filter too, being summer i presume its been cranking.


I also wondered about one of the portable air purifiers, and if they would filter fine enough?


----------



## motman (26/2/15)

Just info for you: in a feed manufacturing situation at one stage I was involved in, nestle took over and implemented a testing procedure swabbing for salmonella and mould. The place was infested. They shut it down and demanded repeated cleaning and swab results until levels were acceptable. They were using meths / ethanol as a cleaner, to good eventual effect. I have used an organic acid combo called mycocurb in another feed manufacturing situation to good effect. You can buy swab kits. Keeping the environment dry is key and initially knocking numbers down to reasonable levels to give you a chance seems to be required too.

Of course, this is assuming your environment is high in yeast / mould that is generating airborne spores, a completely possible situation.

Good luck!


----------



## TimT (28/2/15)

Farming out the problem further, I've just sent a mail to Sandor Katz, who is an enthusiast about pretty much all forms of fermentation and will surely have had experience with some bizarre brewery infections of his own.


----------



## clintonforster (28/2/15)

TimT said:


> Farming out the problem further, I've just sent a mail to Sandor Katz, who is an enthusiast about pretty much all forms of fermentation and will surely have had experience with some bizarre brewery infections of his own.


Cheers Mate, Gonna try a few different things early next week to see if i can solve the issue.


----------



## cooperplace (28/2/15)

Whenever I pitch, I always re-hydrate the yeast then gradually bring it up to the osmotic potential of the beer, over about an hour. I time it so that the wort is ready at the same time as the yeast. Also I always use a lot more yeast than on the instructions. My beers get to a very vigourous fermentation in no time, and fermentation finishes quickly. I then keg it all and store it all at 4C. 
The aim is to get my yeast established before anything else. 
I never have problems with infections. There are probably as many wild yeasts here as anywhere else, but they don't get a chance. 

You may have covered this in your posts, but how do you rehydrate, and how long does it take fermentation to get going after you pitch?


----------



## Jimrtl81 (28/2/15)

Have you replaced beer and gas lines and soaked taps / couplings in line cleaner.
I've had that same taste from old lines before.


----------



## TimT (1/3/15)

Got a mail back from Katz but it was only a form email about common issues some of his correspondents have, ah well, maybe no luck on that front.


----------



## Mardoo (1/3/15)

I'm guessing he would just say "well, see what you can make with it."


----------



## TimT (9/3/15)

So how's this progressing Clinton? Found a way to beat the beast yet?


----------



## clintonforster (10/3/15)

Hey Tim,

Haven't brewed anything for a couple weeks, just taking some time to consider the different options. Soon i'll do the wort test by leaving a few bowls of fresh wort out around the house, and i am planning to get a steam cleaner and blast the whole place.


----------



## Mr B (10/3/15)

Very nice

I wonder, could you put Starsan in the steam cleaner?

Bit of a left field thought..........


----------



## motman (10/3/15)

Hey Krausen, 

Maybe do a bit of homework on the effectiveness of steam on the yeast / mould.. I know in the manufacturing situations I've been in, steam cleaning was not supposed to be effective on the spores. Also, It adds moisture, the key ingredient. I'd suggest bleach and then vinegar or starsan or some other type of acid would be a pretty effective combo (after the bleach has had it's time to do it's thing and the chlorine has gassed off).

Ended up using products based largely on propionic acid but mixed with other acid salts to inhibit the growth of spores. Of course, I don't know if you could get hold of it domestically.

I think that meths with a splash of water will knock it on it's head too, suggested here (although some of the info in the article seems wrong, I'd guess that's the reporters incorrect interpretation and the meths bit is right): http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/02/25/3149028.htm

Anyhow, hope one of 'em works.


----------



## stakka82 (10/3/15)

Hey mate

Feel really sorry for you... I've had the same thing for almost 2 years now, on and off. Heart breaking and soul destroying barely close to describing the anguish. I'm infection free for 5 brews now but like others here, I've sidestepped the problem rather than conquering it.

As far as I can tell my problem is also wild yeast - low flocculation, same taste to every beer regardless of style or ingredients. Distinctive sickly sweet aroma, sort of like rotting fruit but other off flavours in there too. slight medicinal among others. Accentuated alcohol profile for the strength of the beer. Yeast cake does not form due to extremely low flocculation and the residue at the bottom where it would usually form is a brown rather than cream colour.

I had 3 years of trouble free brewing before this hit. It hit about 6 months after moving into a new place (one I bought, unfortunately. Apart from the brewing issues I love it). At that time I had just bought a BM 50 and was brewing beers I was crazy about. Absolutely in love with the craft but this tore the guts out of me... I went through all the phases the OP has... cleaning shit like crazy (chlorine, steam, starsanning floors like some sort of insane person), bought several sets of new gear etc.

This thing, whatever it is, defies common brewing logic. I used to have decent sanitation processes, these days I'm OCD but it just laughs at sanitation processes. Like the OP I have even tried cube fermenting to no avail. When I first brewed in the cube out of desperation I was sure I had finally nailed it but impossibly the thing had still got in some how. I'm still not sure how this is even possible... based on a couple of things I have changed successfully, and read I believe it can do this by forming biofilms/having highly heat resistant spores. I think it is also likely to be highly airborne, this is how it seems to infect an entire area.

Also, and I realise this is conjecture with no scientific proof, I believe the strain to have the 'killer' gene (or rather, virus). This is the main thing that makes it so devastating. Unlike other spoilage organisms, this allows it to take over the ferment regardless of initial cell numbers at pitch. With most organisms you pitch so big the domesticated yeast produces the majority of the beers flavour profile even if you have some contamination (which is inevitable). Eg, you have 1000 yeast cells to 1 contaminating cell. Therefore all other things being equal your beer tastes 99.9% the way it should. With this 'wild yeast' even if you have those ratios at pitch, by a quarter through ferment your deliberately pitched yeast has been 3/4 killed and the majority of the ferment is being done by the wild yeast. By ferment's conculsion it is 100%. This explains why you know the brew is gone 1-2 days in. It might also explain the dark color of the yeast slurry at the end of the ferment (dead yeast).

The numbers above are made up to illustrate the theory. As I said it's all conjecture. I don't have a magic bullet but after much hair pulling for years now I am having some success with brewing off site and have gone back to basics. I put my brew pot in the oven at 250 for an hour before I do anything on the day. Back to extract after years of all grain. No temp control cause I don't trust the fridge... saisons in summer. Since having gone back to extract I have been ok, but to be honest I think this is cause I have ditched all my mash gear. I don't even trust my mill or blender any more, and I certainly dont believe the old 'boil kills everything' mantra. As an example of the type of paranoid though processes I have these days this is why - biab bag gets a few airborne spores on it, they get on the top of the pot and lid which dont get to 100 degrees at any stage of the process, then when I cool in the laundry sink the condensate, containing the wild yeast, re-innoculates the cooled wort.

Another thing - this thing laughs at starsan. I think mark beer said it and I totally agree, I dont think it's effective on wild yeast. I am almost at the point where I am going to re-introduce my grain gear bit by bit but I certainly wont be leaning on star san to do the heavy lifting. I am going to be using hot caustic where possible and also bleach mixes.

Another thing - every time you have a batch go bad you are essentially manufacturing billions of new enemies. When a handful of spores of this thing are so dangerous it explains why it's so hard to get rid of it in an area once it has established... and also explains why trying again in the same place week after week is counter productive.

Once again this whole thing is conjecture and I realise I probably come across as half insane but believe it or not I actually used to work as a microbiologist and have a degree in biological science. What I have read says the above is possible from a techincal standpoint... who knows if its right or what. I do know though when you work in a lab you are amazed at the resilience of microbes and their ability to show up in 'sterile' environments (environments that are a lot cleaner than my garage).

At times I have actually doubted my sanity and have thought maybe somehow I was deliberately introducing the thing subconsciously... it has been a wild ride and I'm sure it's not over (though I hope to god it is). I actually had to take several month breaks from even looking at the forum cause it made me too angry to read knowing everyone else was making great beer and I was cursed.

Anyway maybe the more this is talked about the more people share info and the more we generate successful strategies for beating this thing.

Cheers and good luck to everyone who has been unfortunate to cop this ******* piece of shit thing, what ever it is...


----------



## manticle (11/3/15)

I don't doubt your sanity. Too many good brewers I've seen this happen to.


----------



## jimmysuperlative (11/3/15)

This issue has been around for some time ... http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54973-got-to-be-airborne-right/. I'm still dealing with it years down the track. One in every three or four brews are lost on average. If I'm honest, I'd have to say that I've never brewed "good" beer since the problem reared its ugly head. Even the better beers have something that's just not quite right about them. 
I have just tried the no-chill cube and ferment method again and while I produced a drinkable ale, it had all too familiar characters that I've come to associate with this infection ...low hop aroma for style, really difficult to describe aroma from yeast cake, and a taste that while it isn't unpleasant is just not true to beer style, but slightly bitter and with a "sameness" to every other beer I've brewed in the last couple of years. ...and then, every so often there's one that gives more hope. ...or there's one that gets tipped straight away 'cause it's shiteful.
I think about giving it all away every few days.


----------



## Eagleburger (11/3/15)

stakka82 said:


> Once again this whole thing is conjecture and I realise I probably come across as half insane but believe it or not I actually used to work as a microbiologist and have a degree in biological science. What I have read says the above is possible from a techincal standpoint... who knows if its right or what. I do know though when you work in a lab you are amazed at the resilience of microbes and their ability to show up in 'sterile' environments (environments that are a lot cleaner than my garage).


So did you have a look at it?


----------



## TimT (11/3/15)

_Also, and I realise this is conjecture with no scientific proof, I believe the strain to have the 'killer' gene (or rather, virus). This is the main thing that makes it so devastating. Unlike other spoilage organisms, this allows it to take over the ferment regardless of initial cell numbers at pitch. With most organisms you pitch so big the domesticated yeast produces the majority of the beers flavour profile even if you have some contamination (which is inevitable). Eg, you have 1000 yeast cells to 1 contaminating cell. Therefore all other things being equal your beer tastes 99.9% the way it should. With this 'wild yeast' even if you have those ratios at pitch, by a quarter through ferment your deliberately pitched yeast has been 3/4 killed and the majority of the ferment is being done by the wild yeast. By ferment's conculsion it is 100%._

Yes - the 'killer' gene factor sounds likely. Also: would it have a high alcohol tolerance - or possibly would it be the sort of microbe that actually eats alcohol? Hence the normal preservative effects of alcohol don't work?

Here's to all the crazy-brave brewers who've encountered these killer bugs.... and carried on regardless until they've gotten rid of them altogether.


----------



## stakka82 (11/3/15)

jimmysuperlative said:


> This issue has been around for some time ... http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54973-got-to-be-airborne-right/. I'm still dealing with it years down the track. One in every three or four brews are lost on average. If I'm honest, I'd have to say that I've never brewed "good" beer since the problem reared its ugly head. Even the better beers have something that's just not quite right about them.
> I have just tried the no-chill cube and ferment method again and while I produced a drinkable ale, it had all too familiar characters that I've come to associate with this infection ...low hop aroma for style, really difficult to describe aroma from yeast cake, and a taste that while it isn't unpleasant is just not true to beer style, but slightly bitter and with a "sameness" to every other beer I've brewed in the last couple of years. ...and then, every so often there's one that gives more hope. ...or there's one that gets tipped straight away 'cause it's shiteful.
> I think about giving it all away every few days.


Yes mate that is exactly it. Relatively 'low level' infections strip hop aroma and make the beer NQR, anything worse is just spew that gets tipped immediately. Like others I have actually binned full fermentors a number of times now.


----------



## stakka82 (11/3/15)

Eagleburger said:


> So did you have a look at it?


 At what mate?


----------



## Nizmoose (11/3/15)

Jesus this thread is turning scary! I'm interested as to whether or not this has happened to any commercial brewery ever and if not why not?


----------



## Blind Dog (11/3/15)

Yes: https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/23033131/gage-roads-warns-of-big-beer-loss/

and https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/24605302/gage-roads-gets-back-on-track/


----------



## TimT (11/3/15)

Yep. And I heard secondhand that it happened to another commercial brewery too.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (11/3/15)

If someone isn't doing their job in major breweries I could imagine they would have problems, Gage Road was commissioning new plant, how well was it cleaned before hand, and it must have been quite easy to eliminate the problem if they are back on track.


----------



## Blind Dog (11/3/15)

Not sure 'quite easy' would be their description after dumping 500,000 litres of beer and losing $2m in gross profits, but take your point.


----------



## clintonforster (11/3/15)

Makes me feel a little more sane knowing there are others that have had this same problem. Stakka82 seems to have been dealing with the same issue i have been dealing with and has completely hit the nail on the head with his description of the taste and characteristics of the problem. Though it leaves me little hope that I am going to be able to beat it and if i do move next year.. will all my stuff i move with take it with me? I'm renting right now and am very reluctant to go and blast different chemicals all over the place! I have Stains on me bench from undiluted star san which is probably already going to take my bond. 

All seems a bit hopeless and yet still all i can think about is what can i do next to get back to where i was brewing awesome beer after awesome beer.


----------



## stux (12/3/15)

True story,

So I'm in the middle of stepping up some lager yeast to 1.2 trillion cells. Went to grab the preprepared 3L step in a 5L flask and it has a pelicle that's clinbing up the side walls! Damn. 

What I find confusing is that the step was prepared by adding DME and saved wort in a flask, then boiling with tin foil in place for 25 mins! The tinfoil was never removed while it cooled, yet a few days later it's infected. 

Must've been drawn in as it cooled :-/

Knocked my dunkel plans sideways while I nuke my flasks

After having a previous yeast batch destroyed when vinegar flies found their way up past the foil I'm thinking I need to resort to bungs and air filters on my flasks


----------



## Eagleburger (12/3/15)

stakka82 said:


> At what mate?


The bugs, to possibly indentify them.


----------



## stakka82 (12/3/15)

clintonforster said:


> Makes me feel a little more sane knowing there are others that have had this same problem. Stakka82 seems to have been dealing with the same issue i have been dealing with and has completely hit the nail on the head with his description of the taste and characteristics of the problem. Though it leaves me little hope that I am going to be able to beat it and if i do move next year.. will all my stuff i move with take it with me? I'm renting right now and am very reluctant to go and blast different chemicals all over the place! I have Stains on me bench from undiluted star san which is probably already going to take my bond.
> 
> All seems a bit hopeless and yet still all i can think about is what can i do next to get back to where i was brewing awesome beer after awesome beer.


My advice would be to leave everything behind and start fresh in the new place.

That's what I'll do if and when I move. Just not worth the risk otherwise. Having a BM makes it a bit harder though.




Eagleburger said:


> The bugs, to possibly indentify them.


I thought about that but I have no knowledge of yeast nor the requisite equipment. I entertained the notion of emailing some foremost expert and arranging to send a sample but never got round to it...


----------



## clintonforster (14/3/15)

So i left a few glasses of wort in glasses that i'd sanitised with star san and then covered with glad wrap around the house and one outside. After a few hours they had all developed a sediment layer like picture 1, I assume this is just normal and the sugar is settling. 

over the first two days the "wort" smell dissapeared and all 4 of the samples in the house developed mould on them and got a hint of that familiar off smell and also a much stronger smell of off baked beans. such as in picture two.

The third picture however which is the one i left outside has no mould but the same smell, it has become carbonated and has bubbles rising through it like if i'd just poured a can of coke into the glass.

I've then included a picture of where my brew stuff is and my backyard where the outside wort was left. 

What this all tells me I have no idea. If anyone knows a scientist that knows how to kill this stuff send them my way.


----------



## Camo6 (14/3/15)

Was the test wort produced on your system? Just to rule out equipment.

If it really is an environmental cause I really feel for you. Not sure if it's been asked but any farms/parks/nurseries around you?


----------



## clintonforster (14/3/15)

Camo6 said:


> Was the test wort produced on your system? Just to rule out equipment.
> 
> If it really is an environmental cause I really feel for you. Not sure if it's been asked but any farms/parks/nurseries around you?


It was just some extract and water. And I'm in Footscray up the road from grain and grape :/


----------



## manticle (14/3/15)

So just some stinky oil refineries then?


----------



## Camo6 (14/3/15)

And lots of fruit trees covered in bird netting, I'll bet. Will the mesh gap in bird netting trap wild yeast?


----------



## Eagleburger (14/3/15)

stakka82 said:


> I thought about that but I have no knowledge of yeast nor the requisite equipment. I entertained the notion of emailing some foremost expert and arranging to send a sample but never got round to it...


I can get PCR done on the subject if its a good cause.


----------



## Pogierob (14/3/15)

Eagleburger said:


> I can get PCR done on the subject if its a good cause.


Could there be a more desperate situation than a man not being able to brew his own beer? This sir is not a good cause,it would be a noble cause..


----------



## TimT (14/3/15)

Interesting. I wonder: is the infection perhaps a mould, then - not a wild yeast at all?

What's the plant hanging over the back fence? I do wonder if it's harbouring any wild beasties.


----------



## TimT (14/3/15)

Sunshine tends to kill mould. If the infection is principally mould, a long hot dry summer might be the best thing to kill it off - exactly the reverse of what we just had, unfortunately for you.

I suggest another experiment: leaving out *fermented* beer wort to see if it develops the infection - or if the alcohol actively repels it.


----------



## Nizmoose (15/3/15)

Whilst I do think Tim's suggestions are a good way to try and narrow it down surely getting a biologist to give this thing a proper looking over would be the best way to properly define what this thing is and how to combat it? Once you know exactly what it is I'm sure there's a way someone knows to obliterate it


----------



## TimT (15/3/15)

Some suggestions here for how to get rid of mould in the kitchen. Basically, de-humidifying, circulating air, and scrubbing with acid.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/3/15)

TimT said:


> Some suggestions here for how to get rid of mould in the kitchen. Basically, de-humidifying, circulating air, and scrubbing with acid.


The circulating air reminds me of Fawlty Towers when a woman asks, 'Is the room airy' Basil replied,'Well there's air in it'


----------



## clintonforster (4/4/16)

Hi Guys, 

It's been almost 2 years since i started having my problems, i never gave up and brewed at least once a week. 

The house i was living in had terrible water from old piping, a rising damp and mould growing in the walls. I got rid of ALL my equipment. Moved house when the wife and i could finally afford it and bought all new gear. 

I am now 5 brews in and everything is tasting amazing like the first time i started brewing. Thanks to everyone that tried to help me through these troubled times. 

I'm the happiest guy in the world now that i can brew again.


----------



## Nizmoose (4/4/16)

Glad you're back at it Clinton! So scary I just looked over this thread and saw a post from me almost exactly a year ago sending my sympathies and now here I am battling a seemingly impossible to beat what I can only assume is a wild yeast problem myself! Any help would be great I started a thread here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89700-help-weird-maybe-off-flavour/page-2


----------



## clintonforster (4/4/16)

Hey Nizmoose! 

After reading your thread there's a couple pieces of advice i may be able to offer that will hopefully help. 

I have given up on dry yeast, especially us-05 as I found i always have a similar off flavour to every brew made with it (rehydrated or sprinkled straight on doesn't matter) 

I now only use liquid yeast with a starter, boil 150 grams dry malt extract in an erlenmeyer flask on the stove for 10 mins in 1.5 litres of water, cool down, pitch yeast and leave for 24 hours swirling a couple times. Refrigerate for 2 hours to drop the yeast to the bottom of the flask, decant most of the liquid and pitch the yeast into the fermenter after shaking them back into suspension.

If you are using Plastic fermenters get a new one as the one you have may have a microscopic scratch allowing bacteria in. 

When i moved to my new house i still had a couple of brews with the problem you describe - complete lack of hop flavour. 

I got the guys at little creatures in Geelong to test my brew for me. Turns out i was over oxygenating with my pure oxygen tank, now i just shake the fermenter rigourosly for 45 seconds to a minute with great results. 

I use a stainless steel brewbucket and use Pure Sodium percarbonate to clean with Star San to Sanitize. I find the pure sodium percarbonate works better than PBW and it's way cheaper. 

Also i saw someone say on your thread to bleach anything metal, don't do this as it strips the protective coating on stainless steel. Sodum Bicarbonate + Star San. 

Hope that helps man!


----------



## TimT (4/4/16)

Hey Clinton, it's super that you're able to brew safely again. I know Chris at our club was of the opinion that your problem was caused by a persistent mould of some sort, which sounded possible and seems to fit with your description of your old house - what do you reckon? Was it a wild yeast, or just some kind of mould that was living in the walls of your house?


----------



## clintonforster (4/4/16)

I want to say Mould and also to do with the bad water, when we were moving out i noticed the mould was coming through the wall and eating our cupboards!


----------



## TonyF (5/4/16)

Just finished reading through your whole debacle... Gotta say, my hat's off to ya. This would've driven me to the point of giving up (and crying and pulling my hair out.. and the rest of it).

Happy to see you're all good now and a happy man once again!

Happy Brewing!

Tony


----------



## manticle (5/4/16)

clintonforster said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> It's been almost 2 years since i started having my problems, i never gave up and brewed at least once a week.
> 
> ...


Great news boss. Glad it's worked out, so disheartening when it doesn't.
Been there but not to that extent.


----------



## pist (5/4/16)

How to stop any infection.
Well its a no brainer. Put some serious effort into cleaning and sanitising ALL of your gear properly. Ive been brewing for over 8 years now and not had an infection once


----------



## manticle (5/4/16)

Some very serious and thorough brewers have battled unwelcome microflora pist. It's not necessarily lazy sanitation that leads to infection.

I've never had a broken leg or cancer - doesn't mean if you do what I do, you'll be guaranteed event free.


----------



## goatchop41 (5/4/16)

pist, if you took the time to actually read through the thread you would note that cleaning all of your gear (even bleach/vinegar nuking), however thoroughly, is not sufficient if the offending organism (wild yeast or mould) is prevalent throughout your house/brewing area.

Also, your assertation that just because YOU haven't had any infections with YOUR cleaning/sanitising regimen, means that clintonforster isn't doing the right thing himself is just wrong. Your situation isn't applicable to his, so you not having an infection in your system is not relevant. Let's infect your house with a nasty mould or wild yeast, then we'll see how confident you are that your process is bulletproof.


----------



## clintonforster (5/4/16)

Cheers Goat chop and Manticle,

I spent two years trying to figure this out brewing every week, i got advice from proffesional brewers and many home brewers, i talked to people that were 60 years old that had been brewing since they were 15 (yes 15) who had also never had an infection but they had mates that had experienced similar to me. I used every type of cleaner under the sun and bought new brewing equipment several times. I even did a split batch at a mates house, we fermented at our seperate houses both using a stainless steel brewbucket cleaned with PBW and sanitised with Star San. Mine ended up infected and his tasting amazing just like the first time i brewed it. 

I'm not doing anything differently currently, in fact my cleaning process is way more relaxed than when i was having problems. i am just not in a house with terrible water and mould growing through the walls. 

Prior to having these troubles i have to say I had the same attitude as Pist to an extent. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, had me really down many times.


----------



## ScottyDoesntKnow (5/4/16)

Wow. I'm a new brewer and new to AHB but I just read through this whole thread out of interest. It was like a Hollywood movie complete with the happy ending! Well done in sticking it out for as long as you did because I sure as hell wouldn't have had the patience nor the finance to do it.


----------



## peteru (6/4/16)

Too late for the OP, but here goes some advice anyway...

I had some issues with high rates of beer spoilage. The issue was what's sometimes referred to as "gusher bug" - an infection that eats up anything it can. The symptoms are an off flavour very early, kind of like clove, then as the beer ages, it becomes more medicinal, astringent, dry and way over carbonated. To the point that opening a bottle causes a fizzy geyser, like a Mentos in a Coke bottle. Like others, I battled this with various cleaning and sanitising regimes, but could not eliminate it. Even replaced all my equipment, to no positive results.

One day, on the spur of the moment, I decided I really didn't like the flooring in the kitchen and decided to rip up the old lino. What I found under that was some mould, a filthy old layer of another lino and under that a variety of floor coverings, ranging from asbestos sheets, chipboard, sandstone slab, hardwood floorboards and some kind of resin/bakelite impregnated woven material. What was going to be a quick job to replace some ugly lino turned out to be a major re-flooring of the kitchen. I pulled out everything I could, getting back to the floor boards and sandstone / concrete. Gave everything a good wash with sugar soap, then mopped it with a vinegar. Once dry, I sprayed with metho and then mopped with bleach. Then it was a couple of days of drying. During that time I noticed that the sandstone and concrete parts of the floor were wicking up the moisture from under the house and it became clear that this was always going to be a damp and mould problem, because moisture would be drawn from under the house and then trapped under the floor coverings. Since the floor was also uneven in that area, I got a few bags of floor leveler, mixed it up and poured it over the affected area. Once the leveler set and dried, I got some bathroom *waterproofing membrane* and painted two coats over the sandstone, the concrete, the leveler and a good 30-50cm of surrounding floorboards. For the rest of the floor, I used a PVA (as in PVA glue) floor sealer that you just paint on the floorboards. I then covered the treated floor with self-adhesive lino rectangles that are each manufactured to resemble a floor board. I also installed some extra vent bricks around the perimeter of the house and an electric fan with some ducting and a timer that runs for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, just to ventilate under the house and get any moisture out of there.

About two or three months after this, I cleaned all my existing equipment (the same gear I had issues with in the past) and decided to brew again. This time the results were just fine, no infection, no off flavours, spot on carbonation and beer that lasted for good 6 months without any "gusher bug" issues. No idea if it would have lasted any longer, it was too yum to resist ;-)

So, yes, the environment can be a big, big factor and fixing the problem can be a major job. It's usually the stuff you don't see. The floor is clean on the surface, but what's under it? The walls and ceilings are clean, but what's inside the cavities? Sometimes you just need to peel back the layers and inspect.


----------



## Nizmoose (6/4/16)

clintonforster said:


> Hey Nizmoose!
> 
> After reading your thread there's a couple pieces of advice i may be able to offer that will hopefully help.
> 
> ...


Sorry not to thank you for this sooner! Great info here, I do shake the shit out of my fermenters, worth a shot doing less of it given I have a 12L beer in a 20L bucket, I do clean with sodium percarbonate funnily enough, only switched to bleach to see if I had a super-bug which had become resistant to sodium percarbonate over time. I've never heard of the sodium bicarbonate + starsan, would you be able to shed some light on procedures and preparing it? Thanks again!


----------



## peteru (6/4/16)

Careful with bleach or the pink powder. You need to work really hard to get the residual stench out. If you don't you *will* get off flavours in your beer.

If you are going to treat your gear because you suspect an infection that resists your usual procedures, I would recommend first cleaning your equipment with a solution of hot water and bleach (or pink powder), then rinsing with hot water and letting everything drain really well.

For the next part, it's best to work outside - sodium metabisulphite is nasty stuff and could give you an asthma attack if you inhale it or the generated fumes. Once drained, mix up some sodium metabisulphite with water and splash this solution around your equipment to ensure that every surface is covered. Tip out the liquid, no need to drain too well. Place everything in the fermenter and close it. Sit it outside, even in the sun, so it can get warm, for a couple of hours. Open, rinse well, drain well and let air dry. Store for a week or so.

Next time you want to use this equipment, clean it all with sodium percarbonate and rinse well. Smell it. You should not be able to detect any chlorine or sulphur smell. If you can, rinse with boiling water, drain and test again. At this stage, you should be good to use StarSan or equivalent and continue as normal.


----------



## clintonforster (6/4/16)

Nizmoose said:


> Sorry not to thank you for this sooner! Great info here, I do shake the shit out of my fermenters, worth a shot doing less of it given I have a 12L beer in a 20L bucket, I do clean with sodium percarbonate funnily enough, only switched to bleach to see if I had a super-bug which had become resistant to sodium percarbonate over time. I've never heard of the sodium bicarbonate + starsan, would you be able to shed some light on procedures and preparing it? Thanks again!


For Star san, after you've cleaned the fermenter with sodium percarb or your choice of cleaner and rinsed all the cleaner out - dilute 1.5 ml of star san per litre of water. you can either fill the fermenter and use the appropriate amount of star san, or fill a spray bottle and make sure you spray the whole inside of the fermenter. Star san is phosphoric acid based and is non rinse. It won't affect the flavour of your beer like bleach. When you use bleach as a sanitizer you need to rinse the shit out of your fermenter to get rid of it, and then what about bacteria in the water you rinsed with? With star san just spray or fill with the correct diluted amount, allow 1 to 2 mins contact time and drain. Then fill with beer.


----------



## Nizmoose (6/4/16)

clintonforster said:


> For Star san, after you've cleaned the fermenter with sodium percarb or your choice of cleaner and rinsed all the cleaner out - dilute 1.5 ml of star san per litre of water. you can either fill the fermenter and use the appropriate amount of star san, or fill a spray bottle and make sure you spray the whole inside of the fermenter. Star san is phosphoric acid based and is non rinse. It won't affect the flavour of your beer like bleach. When you use bleach as a sanitizer you need to rinse the shit out of your fermenter to get rid of it, and then what about bacteria in the water you rinsed with? With star san just spray or fill with the correct diluted amount, allow 1 to 2 mins contact time and drain. Then fill with beer.


Sorry I completely misread your sentence, I thought you were making some weird combo of starsan and sodium bicarbonate haha


----------



## kaiserben (14/4/16)

I don't have a wild yeast problem, but SWMBO is insisting we spring clean the house this weekend, so I'm thinking about giving the brew space (household kitchen) a really good disinfect. 

Does anyone have any advice about what chemicals are safe to use on kitchen surfaces? What'll do the job properly? And how strong a mix of each should I make? 

I've got plenty of Perc and also some Phosphoric No-rinse (plus geeral household cleaning stuff).


----------



## manticle (14/4/16)

Be careful with undiluted phosphoric basex stuff - it can stain some surfaces.
If you have marble anywhere, keep anything acidic right away.

Hot sodium percarbonate is great for cleaning loads of stuff.


----------



## peteru (14/4/16)

If you are going for a general spring (autumn) clean, do exactly that - clean rather than sanitise. Having clean workspace that doesn't have hospitable areas for bacteria or wild yeast is a lot more effective that sanitising filth.

Good scrub with any unscented or low scent cleaning product appropriate for the surface should do the trick. Sodium percarbonate happens to be a pretty good cleaning product, but sugar soap is good too, if you need to clean walls, floors and even ceilings.

Worry about sanitising on brew day.


----------



## neal32 (15/4/16)

pist said:


> How to stop any infection.
> Well its a no brainer. Put some serious effort into cleaning and sanitising ALL of your gear properly. Ive been brewing for over 8 years now and not had an infection once


What a dick thing to say. I've never in 50+ AG brews at 3 different places of residence had an infection either(had one as a teenager when i brewed kits) but i don't use that to beat down someone who is distraught and looking for assistance. 

A little empathy for a fellow brewer please.


----------



## Nizmoose (15/4/16)

neal32 said:


> What a dick thing to say. I've never in 50+ AG brews at 3 different places of residence had an infection either(had one as a teenager when i brewed kits) but i don't use that to beat down someone who is distraught and looking for assistance.
> A little empathy for a fellow brewer please.


Yeah thats the thing I've been such a clean brewer doing cleaning and sanitation by the book and have produced nothing but clean beer after clean beer for two years, then all of a sudden 4 bad beers out of 5 haha


----------



## TimT (5/12/16)

This is now a very old thread but I thought I'd revive it just this once - the Baron/my wife came back from a two day mushroom growing course in the countryside yesterday with some *very* interesting information about moulds. And I think she may have identified the culprit in these particularly bad cases of what are usually called 'killer yeasts'. 

Seems that whereas you can kill a normal nasty yeast by heating it up to around 70 degrees C, you can't do this with mould. 

Trichodermas are particularly virulent; they're everywhere in nature but if they manage to get a hold in a particular environment they won't let go and won't let other creatures grow. 

To kill a mould like this, you have to have a heat of around 120 degrees C. This is pretty much impossible in a normal kitchen; you can achieve it with a pressure cooker but of course you can't pressure cook your whole kitchen. 

The Baron also says that the way to deter these moulds (when you, for instance, want to culture some mushrooms) is by sterilising every surface and wiping stuff constantly with metho (ie, pure alcohol). 

So there you go. I know at one of our club meetings I did overhear Clinton (who started this thread) talking to another one of our members who suggested it was probably a problem due to mould. It now seems to me quite likely that this is the case. 

So, maybe this will help brewers in the future with this problem - basically - watch out for that mould, folks!


----------



## sp0rk (5/12/16)

TimT said:


> This is now a very old thread but I thought I'd revive it just this once - the Baron/my wife came back from a two day mushroom growing course in the countryside yesterday with some *very* interesting information about moulds. And I think she may have identified the culprit in these particularly bad cases of what are usually called 'killer yeasts'.
> 
> Seems that whereas you can kill a normal nasty yeast by heating it up to around 70 degrees C, you can't do this with mould.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great point
I had a gusher problem for a while, it disappeared for a little while after bleach bombing my entire brewery, then it resurfaced
I then gave everything in my brewery a wipe/spray down with the fores and heads from a mate's reflux still
Haven't had any problems since


----------



## kaiserben (5/12/16)

I had 2 infected batches in quick succession a few months back. 

I had a non-infected batch made between the 2 infected ones. After checking back through my records and wondering wtf had happened, I'm fairly sure I narrowed it down to 1 particular fermenter. 

It was most likely an infection around the tap rather than a scratch of the inside of the fermenter. I'd simply never bothered to take the taps apart and give them a proper clean. Close to 100 batches (spread across a few fermenters) without any problems, but I guess now I've learned my lesson. (Now I've decided to try a snap tap instead of the standard plastic taps, because they're easier to take apart. Also hoping to eventually switch to all stainless fermenters). 

Anyway, 2 full batches went down the drain - actually one of my mates was happy to drink a fair few of those infected bottles :blink: and he's still alive ... - but I played it safe and ditched the fermenter & tap that I suspected was the problem. No issues in the the 4 batches I've tasted since (fingers crossed). 

EDIT: Those batches were bottled in both PET and glass (seemed fine at bottling). The first sign of infection was extremely tight PET bottles a week later. When I went to open an un-refrigerated bottle to check it out it gushed everywhere (all over me, all over the kitchen, even to the ceiling!). I chilled the rest of the bottles, but it was still a nightmare drain pouring those bottles (including a few in glass that I suppose were in big danger of exploding), too many of them sprayed all over the kitchen.


----------



## Stouter (5/12/16)

I just opened the shed door to a puddle of Choc Stout I've had sitting in a cube for the last few weeks  .
It had managed to get past the lid, and went under the cupboards, chairs, boxes, almost out the door. Carefully removed it to the garden before gently easing the lid. Crazy amount of pressure in it, and it hissed at me for ages before I could take the lid right off.
I've brewed two batches since this and they're cubed, so I'm hoping it was the cube.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter (5/12/16)

Interesting about the mold, I should probably share my wild yeast story...

In Adelaide (hot and very dry) I never had a problem with wild yeast etc.

Once I moved to Canberra I started getting wild yeast in my beer at bottling. One of them exploded with the neck of the bottle with cap still attached shooting past my left ear and going through a tempered glass sliding window, which slowly tinkled into a thousand tiny pieces while I was still standing there shocked.

I eventually found the bottle neck on the other side of the garden, it had shot past my head, destroyed the tempered glass window, ricocheted back past my head and hit the wall of the neighbors house.

Using my HLT lid as a shield and wearing oven mits I gingerly placed all the other bottles into my HLT where they continued to explode for the next few days. My HLT is 4 mm aluminium and it now has several dents in it from the exploding beer bottles inside.

After reading Markbeers comments about starsan not being effective against yeast I started cleaning/sterilizing everything (inc bottles) with elcheapo hypochlorite domestic cleaner bleach and bottling in the kitchen. problem went away.

My theory was it was wild yeast in the garden/outoors (bottling outdoors in Adelaide was never a problem, likely due to the low humidity).

I now clean and sanitize with only hypochlorite and soak fermenters with sodium percarbonate and rinse with hypochlorite. Of course I rinse well after. I do wild brews and don't get any cross contamination even using the same equipment.

I now keg inside under a C02 blanket.

I only use starsan if it has already been cleaned with hypochlorite and I just want to give it a quick no rinse before using.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (5/12/16)

_Trichoderma_ is relatively easy to kill with mild heat and ammonia. A quaternary ammonium compound based cleaner (known as a QAC or a quat) is definitely worth a shot if you suspect ground based mould is part of the problem.


----------



## goatchop41 (5/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> _Trichoderma_ is relatively easy to kill with mild heat and ammonia. A quaternary ammonium compound based cleaner (known as a QAC or a quat) is definitely worth a shot if you suspect ground based mould is part of the problem.


Where would one purchase said 'QAC'?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (5/12/16)

Any cleaning product supplier will have a QAC in the range.


----------



## Matplat (5/12/16)

How do you define 'mild' heat?


----------



## damoninja (6/12/16)

Skimmed this thread and noticed the comments about starsan not being effective on yeast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JC9n50RdVo


----------



## Jack of all biers (6/12/16)

Gotta love the Sui Generis.


----------



## Mardoo (6/12/16)

damoninja said:


> Skimmed this thread and noticed the comments about starsan not being effective on yeast
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JC9n50RdVo


That's a good 1000th post


----------



## Bridges (6/12/16)

I think I've posted this article up somewhere here before. Black mould growing in your house won't be killed by bleach. It just changes its colour. The good doctor a "mould expert" recommends vinegar solutions. Interesting read.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/12/16)

I believe the idea that bleach doesn't kill mould comes from a misinterpretation of data that says that bleach won't kill mould on a porous surface because the fungal hyphae will have penetrated the surface to a depth that the bleach won't reach. The same applies to vinegar and alcohol, both of which have been shown to be ineffective at inhibiting mould growth even in ideal conditions.


----------



## Matplat (7/12/16)

Interesting.... so are plastic FV's considered porous?


----------



## damoninja (7/12/16)

Matplat said:


> Interesting.... so are plastic FV's considered porous?


To quote a post I read by a respected member on another forum - discussion was around being able to sanitise plastic fermenters that have had brett, lacto, pedio etc but it's a fitting answer nonetheless I think. 



> Well, this isn't a black and white question. It's a question of odds, and many variables that affect those odds. Are your chances of getting a cross contamination higher when using plastic over glass and stainless? Without a doubt, yes. Normally people blame this on microscopic scratches in the plastic. However, I've also read at least one wine study that actually documented that it took longer to sanitize microorganisms off of plastic versus glass and stainless steel in a controlled experiment (I will have to revisit the study to see why; I believe they referenced other studies for that information). Also, I am not sure if the study cleaned before sanitizing, so I have to re-read that.
> 
> That doesn't mean that you can't sanitize plastic fermenters that have been exposed to a mixed culture fermentation. I need to read more into this, but it looks like if you do long soaks of first a cleaning agent (PBW) and then a 5 minute soak in sanitizer (Starsan), you should kill everything unless your plastic has a lot of scratches. Knowing if your plastic has a lot of microscopic scratches is, well, hard without a microscope unless you can see the scratches, at which point those scratches are no longer "microscopic". I can't imagine that any plastic would be 100% free of this. The one exception might be unless it was brand new. That all said, I have fermented at least two clean beers in plastic that have once had my sour culture in them, and haven't tasted a contamination. There might have been a contamination if I were to send the beer into a lab, but since I never tasted anything wrong, I don't care. On one of the beers, it was heavily hopped, thus most likely killing any lactic acid bacteria. It was also a very short fermentation (under 2 weeks), and then moved to a keg where it was kept cold (a keg that has held many sour beers, in fact). The cold would have helped minimize the impact of the contamination if there was one in my beer.
> 
> ...


----------



## CyberAle (7/12/16)

Is your brew bucket definitely sealed up correctly? I had a very similar issue for about 3 batches in a row, I would do the brew correctly and then about a week into fermentation, my fermenter started smelling like nail polish, eventually I found out that the fermenter I was using for these batches was not airtight at all and all sorts of nasties where making it into the beer including insects. After I replaced my fermenter I haven't had any problems since.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (7/12/16)

Matplat said:


> Interesting.... so are plastic FV's considered porous?


No they are permeable but not porous.


----------

