# WTF! Is going on in Sydney?



## 2much2spend (15/12/14)

What is going on in Sydney, im channel surfing only to find that someone with some serious problems wanting a chocolate take some locals hostage?
Seriously WTF!


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## BadSeed (15/12/14)

40-50 people and reports of two gunmen.
Scary shit, I hope it doesn't go bad.


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## barls (15/12/14)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-15/hostages-sydney-cafe-martin-place-police-operation/5967232
just been looking at it.


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

Sense of proportion....

If this was an armed robbery in a cafe - a couple of guys with guns... hostages taken - we would have a few dozen police, a small cordon and a negotiator.

Now, in exactly that same situation - couple of guys with guns, hostages taken - , because someone waved an islamic flag, we have the CBD in lockdown, choppers in the air, half the police in the world and the prime minister making a statement. 

FFS... sense of proportion.


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

Sorted soon, Bruce Willis is on the way.


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## S.E (15/12/14)

Pictures on the TV of a man with a large backpack walking about inside. Presumably a bomb or threat of one.


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## GrumpyPaul (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Sense of proportion....
> 
> If this was an armed robbery in a cafe - a couple of guys with guns... hostages taken - we would have a few dozen police, a small cordon and a negotiator.
> 
> ...


If it was my family in that coffee shop being held hostage.....

I'd be wanting the big response and every effort taken.

It's someone's family in there....that's a sense of proportion.


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

Yeah... sucks to be inside.. or related to someone inside.

I'd be wanting a decent response... not mass hysteria.

Apparently Obama is being briefed on the situation. I mean really. Get a grip. Talk about giving them exactly what they want.


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## WitWonder (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Sense of proportion....
> 
> If this was an armed robbery in a cafe - a couple of guys with guns... hostages taken - we would have a few dozen police, a small cordon and a negotiator.
> 
> ...


Difference being that if they are terrorists they will want to kill as many people as they can with as much publicity - that is their aim. They aren't there to rob the place.


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## BadSeed (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Sense of proportion....
> 
> If this was an armed robbery in a cafe - a couple of guys with guns... hostages taken - we would have a few dozen police, a small cordon and a negotiator.
> 
> ...


Perhaps they are privy to more information than us.


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

yes and by splashing it across every screen in the world we give them exactly the publicity they want.

If we treat it as an armed robbery and deal with it in a sensible (non hysterical) way and hopefully arrest rather than gin down the perpetrator it rather takes the wind out of their sails doesn't it.

As it is, people will be shit scared and start to distrust (even more) people who look a bit muslim which leads to more hatred and.... ARRRGGGHHH.

Canadian PM just made a statement. FFS what is wrong with people!


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## klangers (15/12/14)

There was a suspicious package at the Opera house.

I'm working a couple blocks away and it certainly isn't hysterical. History has shown us that this sort of thing can get out of hand very quickly and now with the internet the way it is, it isn't illogical to prepare for the possibility of coordinated international attacks.


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

The dollar has dropped on the news. Lindt will become dearer.

And latest news, in Brisbane Campbell Newman has been briefed. Nothing to worry about then.


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

Bruno is definitely going to get laid tonight.


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## joshF (15/12/14)

like klangers, i work down on york street about 1km away from the whole thing and just ducked out for lunch. everything seems normal and people are going about their business. I imagine it's alot different up in circular quay but down here I think the panick has kind of subsided


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## GalBrew (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> If we treat it as an armed robbery and deal with it in a sensible (non hysterical) way and hopefully arrest rather than gin down the perpetrator it rather takes the wind out of their sails doesn't it.


But it's not an armed robbery is it?


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

Amounts to the same thing.

if we treat it as we would any other situation with armed people in a cafe taking hostages, we deny terrorists the publicity they crave. Treat it like its a local police matter (which it is). resolve it. Arrest them. put them in jail.

Making it into a worldwide security incident (Indian PM just made a statement FFS) gives them exactly what they want. And encourages more. We have just shown every disgruntled idiot out there that all they need to do is wave a flag and we make them an instant worldwide jihadist celebrity. Well done.

Treat it like an armed robbery, arrest them and cart their sorry arse off to jail for 10+ years of showertime sodomy and its a whole lot less attractive a proposition.


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## S.E (15/12/14)

joshF said:


> like klangers, i work down on york street about 1km away from the whole thing and just ducked out for lunch. everything seems normal and people are going about their business. I imagine it's alot different up in circular quay but down here I think the panick has kind of subsided


You probably won’t see any panic unless you are in the cafe. I was in a few bomb scares all but one false alarms and always amazed how calm people are being evacuated with police ambulance and fire engines screaming about cordoning everything off.


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## Feldon (15/12/14)

Its apparent from the press conference held by the NSW premier and the NSW police chief that there is battle waging between the Commonwealth and the state of NSW for ownership of the incident and the spin being put on it.

NSW premier reiterated over and over again that NSW police had the matter in hand, and the police chief said there was no need for offered federal resources.

The take out, is that NSW govt doesn't want to fall prey to the Fed Govt's political agenda.


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## spog (15/12/14)

Heard about this on ABC radio,not a good situation at all.
And I heard the Premier and Police commissioners ( nsw ) media speech both asking for calm etc,very sensible.
Out of interest I tuned to various commercial radio stations and the spin and hypothectical shit some are putting on it is staggering.
Which reinforces my regard for commercial journalism in this country to be lower than whale shit.
I hope this incident today doesn't bring the rednecks slithering out from their hiding places and cause trouble.


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## spog (15/12/14)

Feldon said:


> Its apparent from the press conference held by the NSW premier and the NSW police chief that there is battle waging between the Commonwealth and the state of NSW for ownership of the incident and the spin being put on it.
> 
> NSW premier reiterated over and over again that NSW police had the matter in hand, and the police chief said there was no need for offered federal resources.
> 
> The take out, is that NSW govt doesn't want to fall prey to the Fed Govt's political agenda.


I believe that once,in a situation like this, if a statement of,or threat of terrorism is made it is handed over to the SAS to deal with.


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

spog said:


> I hope this incident today doesn't bring the rednecks slithering out from their hiding places and cause trouble.


Apparently someone in the crowd went on an anti islamic rant. Fortunately everyone else watching told him to piss off and stop being a dick. There is hope for us.


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## Feldon (15/12/14)

spog said:


> I believe that once,in a situation like this, if a statement of,or threat of terrorism is made it is handed over to the SAS to deal with.


Fed agencies/resources can't get involved unless the state (NSW) signs off indemnity - SAS carry live rounds (always)


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

Feldon said:


> SAS carry live rounds (always)


Yeah... but so does every cop on the beat.

You might be thinking of the UK where cops aren't armed.


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## Feldon (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Yeah... but so does every cop on the beat.
> 
> You might be thinking of the UK where cops aren't armed.


Difference between soldiering and policing.

Soldiers are primarily trained to kill the enemy. Police to apprehend the suspect.

For fed troops to be deployed and put into action they must first be indemnified by the state (NSW in this case) against legal prosecution if they, for example, kill hostages, bystanders in their move against the enemy.


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## madpierre06 (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Amounts to the same thing.
> 
> if we treat it as we would any other situation with armed people in a cafe taking hostages, we deny terrorists the publicity they crave. Treat it like its a local police matter (which it is). resolve it. Arrest them. put them in jail.
> 
> ...



But where's the ratings and network/talking head publicity in that? Straight out of the Frontline playbook.


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## barls (15/12/14)

Feldon said:


> Fed agencies/resources can't get involved unless the state (NSW) signs off indemnity - SAS carry live rounds (always)


it won't be sas. it will be another military group but they are trained for this sort of situation.


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## wide eyed and legless (15/12/14)

SAS are trained for hostage situations, more so than any other force be it army or police, but only the powers that be will know the truth of the situation and the decision will be up to them.


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## Feldon (15/12/14)

barls said:


> it won't be sas. it will be another military group but they are trained for this sort of situation.


It isn't any Fed Govt force. At the moment its entirely a NSW police operation. I suspect the Fed Govt is putting great pressure on NSW to hand over the operation.

Wouldn't be surprised if army bods aren't stationed nearby out of sight but ready to be deployed if things change.


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## Blind Dog (15/12/14)

Don't know about the SAS, or indeed a great deal about what is going on about 1/2km away, but I do know that my building was closed to all visitors today including couriers / Aus Post and I'm waiting for 300g of hops that were dispatched on Thursday. Still one more day of careful handling in transit wont do them any harm, will it?

(not meaning in anyway to trivialise what is a very serious situation for anyone affected)


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## 2much2spend (15/12/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Don't know about the SAS, or indeed a great deal about what is going on about 1/2km away, but I do know that my building was closed to all visitors today including couriers / Aus Post and I'm waiting for 300g of hops that were dispatched on Thursday. Still one more day of careful handling in transit wont do them any harm, will it?
> 
> (not meaning in anyway to trivialise what is a very serious situation for anyone affected)


 let the hops be free!!!!!!!!!!


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## JDW81 (15/12/14)

spog said:


> I believe that once,in a situation like this, if a statement of,or threat of terrorism is made it is handed over to the SAS to deal with.


I suspect the NSW special operations coppers are highly capable of dealing with such a hostage situation. Those lads are exceptionally well trained and are more than capable of handling themselves should push come to shove.

There may well be military involvement at a higher level at this stage, but I doubt they would bring in any of the ADF special operations teams unless they were dealing with a very large, violent and multi-front threat, which it doesn't seem to be at this stage.

Hopefully everyone gets out in one piece without any shots being fired. 

JD


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## technobabble66 (15/12/14)

barls said:


> it won't be sas. it will be another military group but they are trained for this sort of situation.


In Victoria it's (Vic Pol) SOG guys who'd handle this type of scenario, I believe. NSW Police should have the equivalent. 

+1 to less hysteria, more appropriate response. 
Otherwise it's simply feeding the monster. 
Do the various hysterical dicks (public, politicians, or media) not realize they are doing *exactly* what those terrorist groups want?
Not wanting to trivialize a terrible situation, but it's slightly similar to how you'd respond to a child throwing a tantrum - doing what they want (publicity, hysteria and polarization) simply reinforces the terrible behaviour.


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## 2much2spend (15/12/14)

Nar, vicpol would just beat the crowd up and shoot the captors and wound the hostages then say " it's a success!"


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## Black Devil Dog (15/12/14)

The only ones who have genuine reason for being hysterical and understandably so, are the hostages, their families and loved ones. Also those of the Police. 

But then of course there are the hysterical posters on AHB who are saying that everyone should stop being hysterical about it.

Seems that everyone else is quite rational.

Hopefully there is a peaceful outcome and all hostages are released unharmed.


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## spog (15/12/14)

technobabble66 said:


> In Victoria it's (Vic Pol) SOG guys who'd handle this type of scenario, I believe. NSW Police should have the equivalent.
> +1 to less hysteria, more appropriate response.
> Otherwise it's simply feeding the monster.
> Do the various hysterical dicks (public, politicians, or media) not realize they are doing *exactly* what those terrorist groups want?
> Not wanting to trivialize a terrible situation, but it's slightly similar to how you'd respond to a child throwing a tantrum - doing what they want (publicity, hysteria and polarization) simply reinforces the terrible behaviour.


"Feeding the monster" ,too late for my liking,Chanel 7 relayed here from Adelaide has an extended news tonight and they have already had a story about the danger to Adelaide., informing the public is one thing but FFS.
No I'm not watching it,I can hear it in the background,such talk annoys me,but here's hoping it ends well and the prick involved gets life in prison.


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

Live feed


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## 2much2spend (15/12/14)

Yes the ' panic' ( hysteria) is stupid! I've been flicking stations all day to see the same pic replayed over and over!


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## Batz (15/12/14)

Sometimes it's best to turn the TV off and wait until tomorrow morning to see how things have panned out. I believe we are being told very little atm, and I also believe the police and others will have this covered. Good luck guys!


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## hotmelt (15/12/14)

The Premier told you what was going on.
"We are being tested today"
This makes more sense http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

They will lock him up for many years with skinheads. Naked skinheads.


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## Batz (15/12/14)

hotmelt said:


> The Premier told you what was going on.
> "


So I should believe him today? He's not got a real good record.


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## droid (15/12/14)

things changed when those planes flew into the towers


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/14)

Maybe its just a good old fashioned siege....Old mate spins out and decided to take a few hostages......not the first time to happen in Sydney, just a bit more publicised


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## manticle (15/12/14)

hotmelt said:


> The Premier told you what was going on.
> "We are being tested today"
> This makes more sense http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/


That guy has a hide to call himself a journalist.

I find most mainstream news sources totally lacking in substance, proper research or integrity but that is out and out shit of the worst kind. My cat has a more believable, structured and well laid out idea of what is going on.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/14)

manticle said:


> That guy has a hide to call himself a journalist.
> 
> I find most mainstream news sources totally lacjing in substance, proper research or integrity but that is out and out shit of the worst kind. My cat has a more believable, structured and well laid out idea of what is going on.


Can you ask your cat about Tony Abbott then. We need a decent answer


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## 2much2spend (15/12/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Can you ask your cat about Tony Abbott then. We need a decent answer


I think that is left to the GODS!


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## manticle (15/12/14)

He says he's the king of the lizard men come to infect all our radio stations with Guy Sebastian in an evil plot to normalise music without balls, heart or feeling.

Succeeding, unfortunately as far as I can see.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/14)

manticle said:


> He says he's the king of the lizard men come to infect all our radio stations with Guy Sebastian in an evil plot to normalise music without balls, heart or feeling.
> 
> Succeeding, unfortunately as far as I can see.


Your cat is awsome


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## Batz (15/12/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Your cat is awsome


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## DU99 (15/12/14)

all the lindt chocolate shops in australia are closed...


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## Feldon (15/12/14)

need NickJD at a time like this


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

Hey, none of the channels are broadcasting the usually endless funeral insurance ads.


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## 2much2spend (15/12/14)

Bribie G said:


> Hey, none of the channels are broadcasting the usually endless funeral insurance ads.


hah ha hah!


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## AndrewQLD (15/12/14)

Bribie G said:


> Hey, none of the channels are broadcasting the usually endless funeral insurance ads.


Seriously, you find all this amusing?


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## Bribie G (15/12/14)

I don't but it shows there's a lot going on in the background with the channels. Anyway, off to watch some Studio Ghibli and leave the pros to their jobs.


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

Bribie G said:


> They will lock him up for many years with skinheads. Naked skinheads.


I'll make a semi confident prediction that its a lone guy, under 30. Quiet. Loner. Almost certainly some mental health issues. Probably untreated. My guess is he will be quietly locked up in a secure psych ward for a while as they get his meds under control. If he survives of course...


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## TimT (15/12/14)

That sort of crime has been known to happen Airgead though I'm not sure that prediction quite fits with the facts in this circumstance.

Stay safe, Sydneysiders, eh? Here's hoping the hostage takers get caught - and caught soon.


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## manticle (15/12/14)

I think similarly airgead, except in regards to the age of the perpetrator.
I wish for the best outcome for the hostages and family and friends and also hope the perpetrator is arrested rather than shot.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/14)

I have noticed that The Daily Telegraph was quick to say it was an IS terror thing

Then again , " Quiet loner flips out and holds cafe hostage " does not sound as good as "ISIS Terrorist threaten to blow up Sydney CBD"


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## manticle (15/12/14)

I'm speculating which is rarely a good thing but I'd wager that an organised terror attack (such as the ones seen in recent years - 9/11, bali, etc) would involve more than one person and be far more violent, more quickly.


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## Airgead (15/12/14)

manticle said:


> I'm speculating which is rarely a good thing but I'd wager that an organised terror attack (such as the ones seen in recent years - 9/11, bali, etc) would involve more than one person and be far more violent, more quickly.


Yep. If it was serious terorists, it would be they and if they were terrorists aiming for martyrdom and publicity they would have started shooting straight away. Mass casualties and quick martyrdom would be the aim. Not a long and drawn out siege.


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## goomboogo (15/12/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Can you ask your cat about Tony Abbott then. We need a decent answer


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## peas_and_corn (15/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Yep. If it was serious terorists, it would be they and if they were terrorists aiming for martyrdom and publicity they would have started shooting straight away. Mass casualties and quick martyrdom would be the aim. Not a long and drawn out siege.


One person on ABC24 speculated that the target was another place nearby (as there are far more important targets than chocolate store in the area) and he screwed up and this happened. There's little to back it up but it is an interesting theory.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/14)

MMmmmm.....The Aluminati


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## kelbygreen (15/12/14)

I have a feeling he is not with any terrorist groups myself. I think he may even dislike them and using it to promote hate with the group. I cant see him coming out alive I have a feeling he will take his own life but thats my thoughts. I am not against any religion and am not with any either but I have a feeling this is more then terrorism but some guy just out of his mind trying to put blame one a group he has nothing to do with


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/14)

This guy seems more like a loose cannon ..... he is not even making rational demands


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## peas_and_corn (15/12/14)

The police haven't released what the demands are, so we can't conclude anything there.


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## kelbygreen (16/12/14)

why demand stuff as it will end him in jail or dead so whats a demand going to do then? I mean yeah try to save the people thats all good but I cant see how he has rights to demand stuff when it wont matter in the end. Long as the innocent people get out safe its all good.

Police wont release anything even after its all done and dusted maybe hear it in court if he gets that far. I dunno its a big shock to australia but only takes one person as you see.


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## manticle (16/12/14)

All over now. Looks very much like the act of one man with some considerable, ongoing issues.
Didn't end as well as most would have hoped - gunman and at least 2-3 confirmed dead, some non-life threatening woundings as well.

Not an organised terror attack though. Hopefully the media can stop banging on about Australia's innocence. 'Man, disturbed, holds hostages, gunfire exchanged' is not a headline we could pretend is new. The fact that a flag with arabic writing was involved doesn't change much. That's just where his state of mind was.


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## spog (16/12/14)

manticle said:


> All over now. Looks very much like the act of one man with some considerable, ongoing issues.
> Didn't end as well as most would have hoped - gunman and at least 2-3 confirmed dead, some non-life threatening woundings as well.
> Not an organised terror attack though. Hopefully the media can stop banging on about Australia's innocence. Man, disturbed holds hostages, gunfire exchanged' is not a headline we could pretend is new. The fact that a flag with arabic writing was involved doesn't change much. That's just where his state of mind was.


Hostages killed ! **** me if I don't feel empty inside.


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## peas_and_corn (16/12/14)

Yes, people dying makes this a sad tragedy.


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## S.E (16/12/14)

Extremely sad outcome, from initial reports sounds like a botched police operation, given what was known why it was allowed to go on so long? Very sad.


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## Bribie G (16/12/14)

Murdoch and his pet chimp are in their glory this morning.


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## technobabble66 (16/12/14)

Terrible, tragic end to a desperate act of stupidity by a lone nutcracker. 

V sad for the families of the 2 dead hostages (and for the cops who'll be absolutely gutted not getting everyone out safe).


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## 2much2spend (16/12/14)

Once again WTF!


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## Airgead (16/12/14)

Yep. Messy end to a messy situation.

I got the guy's age wrong and the fact that i thought he would be quiet...but will happily stand by the rest of my prediction. Especially the mental health part.

Violent offender out on bail for sex crimes takes hostages... Has more in common with that violent sociopath who took hostages in a Melbourne brothel a few months back than with a terrorist attack.

Any politician, "security expert" , journalist, shock jock or whoever who bangs on about "terrorist threats" today is full of shit and just trying jump on a bandwagon. That wasn't terorism... it was suicide by cop.

Legitimate questions to be asked about why he was out on bail... and how a known violent offender who was out on bail managed to get hold of guns. But terrorism. Nahhhh.

Cops handled it as well as could be expected. I'm guessing they knew from the outset who he was and that he had zero capacity to organise anything more serious. The commissioner in his press conferences was diplomatically trying to get people to calm the **** down and stop mouthing off. Didn't work though. Abbot needed a terrorism related boost to his popularity. I'm guessing a photo op in the lint cafe will be happening sometime today.


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## technobabble66 (16/12/14)

Apparently it occurred because we don't have enough guns. 

http://m.theage.com.au/world/sydney-siege-charles-hurt-tells-fox-news-australias-tough-gun-laws-to-blame-for-preventing-selfdefence-20141215-127uxj.touch.html

Un. Freakin. Believable.


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## 2much2spend (16/12/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Apparently it occurred because we don't have enough guns.
> 
> http://m.theage.com.au/world/sydney-siege-charles-hurt-tells-fox-news-australias-tough-gun-laws-to-blame-for-preventing-selfdefence-20141215-127uxj.touch.html
> 
> Un. Freakin. Believable.


Look I don't believe in everyone having the right to a firearm. The uneducated, disturbed and the criminal will always get their hands on a gun and the responsible ones are punished.
To put it in prospective look how the outcome of a similar scenario in Canada. 
Food for thought ?

P.s. 
Got to work today to find out the the apprentice got mugged 500m from the job. He was threatened with an Axe.


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## Black Devil Dog (16/12/14)

I imagine that it was most definitely terrorism if you were sitting, terrified, in the cafe, with an Islamist madman threatening to kill you with a sawn off shotgun and possibly explosives. Forcing you at gunpoint to make videos of his demands and post them online. 

Probably not terrorism if you're sitting safely at your keyboard, in your office or home making predictions on the likely reasons and outcome though.


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## GalBrew (16/12/14)

Well it's always been easy to pontificate on all matters from the safety of your computer. If that was my wife that had been killed, I probably wouldn't be that receptive to play the whole incident down as the efforts of a deranged lunatic. Deranged he may be, but let's not lose sight of the context of this incident. He wasn't demanding $1,000,000 and a chopper to the airport so he could be flown to the nearest non-extradition country right (although the outcome probably would have been the same).


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## manticle (16/12/14)

It wasn't linked with any known terrorist organisation - a fact people need to accept, whichever keyboard or touch pad they're behind. Of course it was a terrifying situation for all concerned. I don't think anyone would suggest it isn't.

Any siege/hostage type situation would be equally terrifying. Hell, being caught in a burning building without a gunman anywhere would make most people wish for brown underpants. Doesn't mean you can redefine terms to suit.


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## GalBrew (16/12/14)

All true, except for the fact that you don't need to be a card carrying member of a terrorist organisation to commit an act of terrorism.

Sure it wasn't as organised or devastating as flying passenger jets into skyscrapers, but the intent was there and treating this incident as garden variety crime does not do it justice.


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## pcmfisher (16/12/14)

Airgead said:


> Yep. Messy end to a messy situation.
> 
> I got the guy's age wrong and the fact that i thought he would be quiet...but will happily stand by the rest of my prediction. Especially the mental health part.
> 
> ...


Yes, excellent question in need of answering.

Not terrorism? What is terrorism?


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## pcmfisher (16/12/14)

S.E said:


> Extremely sad outcome, from initial reports sounds like a botched police operation, given what was known why it was allowed to go on so long? Very sad.


I don't know about botched police operation, they can only do what they can, but I can't help but wonder if the outcome would have been different if the SAS _were_ allowed to take over. They are the best of the best. By comparison the police groups look like the Keystone Cops.
Why do we not use the best resources we have available?


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## Airgead (16/12/14)

On the up side #illridewithyou has become a global thing. And here's me thinking twatter would never be useful for anything.

But yeah... fox news... what do you expect. Surprised no one has sued them for false advertising... force them to change their name to fox rabid right wing opinion.


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## Black Devil Dog (16/12/14)

I'm not the one redefining the term. Just because he wasn't linked to a particular terrorist organisation, doesn't mean it's not terrorism.

The bloke took innocent hostages, forced them to hold up a black banner with some Islamic verse written on it, also forced the hostages, at gunpoint to make and post video messages.

From what I understand, he was claiming to be a member of I.S. He probably wasn't, but his actions were certainly those of someone inspired by other radical Islamic terrorist groups.


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## Airgead (16/12/14)

Its all about the connotations of the words. The key thing here is that if we say "terrorist" we get all scared, start hating on anyone with a beard and/or headscarf, ramp up security, sign away our freedoms, walk around looking over our shoulders all the time... all that sort of thing. All the publicity also inspires other nutters with an axe to grind and visions of 78 virgins in paradise.

If we say - lone nutter, we treat it as an isolated incident. We mourn for those lost. We ask sensible questions about how we treat violent offenders. And we move on.

If it is an organised terrorist network then by all means treat it as such. But if its a lone nutter, regardless of what he is forcing hostages to hold up - islamic verse, a nazi flag, the hammer and sickle, or a bunch of daises - we treat it as a lone nutter who should have been in jail or a psych ward if the system had been working properly. Don't give it connotations that it doesn't have.


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## manticle (16/12/14)

Since there is no one actual accepted definition of terrorism, I guess we could argue that till kingdom come. If it's just instilling terror in people through violence, then I guess Ivan Milat is a terrorist. If it's instilling terror for political or religious motivations then I guess most governments could fit the bill(the word originally referred to the actions of the French state but somehow the state is now immune to such ephitets as everything it does is legitimate).

My point was that it is similar (not identical) to one of the many siege/hostage situations that have occurred in this and other countries at various points in the past. In some instances it might be family law that breaks the camels' back or sexual jealousy or even sometimes a completely unknown motivation. In this case it was religious fundamentalism.

What it was not though, was an orchestrated attack by a fundamentalist Islamic organisation. A reporter on one of the news channels last night suggested that Australians might feel like US citizens after 9-11 which I find not only stupidly dramatic and based on nothing but an affront to those who were involved in the twin towers incident.

None of that takes away from the trauma suffered by hostages, family and friends. I'm really just looking for some proper, well researched and well thought out journalism with integrity to ensue rather than the half baked, sensationalist crap that oozes from most sources (regardless of who owns the station or newspaper - I've seen garbage from ABC, Ten and 9 alike in the last few hours and none of the papers are much better).


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## manticle (16/12/14)

> All true, except for the fact that you don't need to be a card carrying member of a terrorist organisation to commit an act of terrorism.
> 
> Sure it wasn't as organised or devastating as flying passenger jets into skyscrapers, but the intent was there and treating this incident as garden variety crime does not do it justice.


I'd never suggest a siege/hostage situation is garden variety anything - far from my intent.


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## Black Devil Dog (16/12/14)

I'm not sure anyone is saying that it was an orchestrated attack, by any group.

Why, if it's carried out by an organised terrorist network, it's called terrorism, but if it's a single person, acting in much the same way as IS have called on followers around the world to act, it's not?


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## superstock (16/12/14)

And we let this wacko into the country as a refugee !!


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## manticle (16/12/14)

> I'm not sure anyone is saying that it was an orchestrated attack, by any group.
> 
> Why, if it's carried out by an organised terrorist network, it's called terrorism, but if it's a single person, acting in much the same way as IS have called on followers around the world to act, it's not?


Links have been made in the media (consistently) between this and events like 9/11, London bombings, Bali bombings, etc since the cafe was first held to ransom yesterday. There is no similarity between this and those _orchestrated_ attacks yet the implication has been made and no doubt will continue to be.

Call it what you like. I agree with Airgead that it is unhelpful to be using such terms, using it as justification for military involvement in Syria, etc, but if you feel it's really important to distinguish this from a house siege or Julian Knight massacring passers by in Hoddle Street because of some foreign writing, then by all means do so.


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## S.E (16/12/14)

pcmfisher said:


> I don't know about botched police operation, they can only do what they can, but I can't help but wonder if the outcome would have been different if the SAS _were_ allowed to take over. They are the best of the best. By comparison the police groups look like the Keystone Cops.
> Why do we not use the best resources we have available?


Well I don’t know, I don’t know the facts but would think the police had the capability of handling it themselves.

The botched bit was leaving it so late and not bringing the situation under control earlier. As he was alone it was never going to be a long siege.

Perhaps they had reason to believe he would start thinking rationally and give up as he became more tired and frustrated and realised his demands were being ignored and his hostages kept escaping.

He was well known to police. He was known to hold extremist views and had a history of violent crime.

He could be clearly seen during the siege and was filmed several times through the window presenting a full body target, so assuming there were snipers in place could have been stopped much earlier.

Just seems to me to be an odd decision to wait till there was gun fire before acting against a lone gunman. I hope I’m wrong and there was a bomb involved or other good reason.

It must be very reassuring to terrorists or anyone else planning something similar to know that they can parade about in front of a window and the police will hold back and hope to take them alive.


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## Black Devil Dog (16/12/14)

Held to ransom.........really? Seriously mate.


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## Weizguy (16/12/14)

> Its apparent from the press conference held by the NSW premier and the NSW police chief that there is battle waging between the Commonwealth and the state of NSW for ownership of the incident and the spin being put on it.
> 
> NSW premier reiterated over and over again that NSW police had the matter in hand, and the police chief said there was no need for offered federal resources.
> 
> The take out, is that NSW govt doesn't want to fall prey to the Fed Govt's political agenda.


I'd bloody hope the NSW cops had a handle on it. Probably threw everyone in Sydney at it and probably called in a lot of surrounding command areas, and dragged people in for $$$ Overtime. Overkill is the right amount of kill.

Seems that this is the over-reaction they were hoping for, to distract the public from the upcoming NSW election and the disaster that is the Federal budget.
Both want to take credit for the win, but neither are admitting it was a massive beat-up. Why attract comments from other government leaders, and publicise them?


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## Eagleburger (16/12/14)

re police action, damned if they did damned if they didnt. commiserations for all involved, even the lawyer.


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## droid (16/12/14)

remember I.S. calling people to do whatever they could? they were telling people to kill the infidels, with their bare hands, a knife anything. I remember when that came out thinking "here we bloody go"

my point about things not being the same after 911 was in reference to how the police/defences react, how the media reacts and how the public react. we will never be the same again - the game has changed

if people wave a certain flag around make particular comments and usually after such waving/commenting we see people die, well then what? we will never be privy to what the police and defence forces know and from a hysteria point of view that's prolly a good thing, unfortunately we have the sensationalist media to carry that flag

as for taking him out in front of the window - maybe he had told them that he had a bomb in his backpack who knows, I am sure their reasons aren't just thought up on the spot for such things, there would be protocol

god speed and my heart goes out to the families left behind


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## Feldon (16/12/14)

A lot of people here seem to read too many comics and watch too much TV.

Whenever military or para-military teams (eg NSW police tactical response) are sent into a siege situation there is a high risk of innocent people being killed or injured. That's why they stayed back while the trained negotiators worked to have the hostage-taker surrender. The effort of the police action was to bring the incident to a peaceful conclusion with safety for the hostages.

The police para-military team only went in after shots were fired inside. Information is sketchy on what actually happened, but there are reports that after the hostage-taker started nodding off to sleep one of the hostages tried to disarm him. He awoke and fired his gun. There are standing orders for the para-military outside to go in if the hostages are in immediate peril, and gun fire from within is more than enough to trigger such a response.

It is probable, as it always is in these situations, that hostages have been killed or injured by the para-military that went in to save them. Its impossible to discharge a weapon amongst a crowd of people inside a concrete box without the potential for innocent people to be hurt. There is simply no time to pause and think. That's exactly why armed intervention is and should always be your very, very last response, not your first.

As for those saying the SAS or other army unit be deployed, you need to understand they are the least capable force in this situation.

The police in all states have para-military units that, in big cities like Melbourne and Sydney, are frequently called out to potential siege/hostage situations. They happen all the time (but get less publicity than when Islam is involved, however loosely). As a result police para-military forces are the most experienced and best trained for this sort of situation. They know the lie of the land and are just part of a bigger (unseen) team of negotiators, electronic experts (eavesdropping on the building) and a command and control structure. They all train together and work together in real life situations on a regular basis. Their aim is to minimise bloodshed and arrest the offender and bring the person to justice. Not so the army.

The fed govt military units are, quite simply, very highly trained killers. Negotiation is not their strong point (witness the killing of bin Laden by US Seals - they did not go in to negotiate surrender). Army units have almost no experience in real, live fire urban sieges within Australia. They have experience overseas, buts its a lot different here than shooting up a village in Afghanistan where the media aren't filming.

For those who think maybe the police botched the raid, well, if hurting the innocent is a botch so be it. But innocents will always get hurt when police or army go in with guns. I fully endorse the main intent of the police to bring about a negotiated settlement.

Some people might also be disillusioned by the obviously nervy and jumpy behaviour of the police as they went in. But this real life, not Die Hard the movie. This is how real people, even highly trained police or army, act in real, life-threatening situations.

Reality is stranger than fiction.


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## manticle (16/12/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Held to ransom.........really? Seriously mate.


That's your response to that entire paragraph? Good effort.


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## tavas (16/12/14)

S.E said:


> Well I don’t know, I don’t know the facts .


Probably best to leave it there then champ.


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## S.E (16/12/14)

droid said:


> remember I.S. calling people to do whatever they could? they were telling people to kill the infidels, with their bare hands, a knife anything. I remember when that came out thinking "here we bloody go"
> 
> my point about things not being the same after 911 was in reference to how the police/defences react, how the media reacts and how the public react. we will never be the same again - the game has changed
> 
> ...


As you said the game has changed. The days of negotiating a happy ending in a situation like this are gone. More often than not the perpetrators intend to die and take as many as they can with them.

I guess they must have had some reason to hold back, the fact he hadn’t shot or blown anyone up gave them hope.

On the face of it this was a relatively easy siege to end quickly. Not only was he parading in front of the window but hostages could escape through two separate exits so should be easy enough for marksmen to enter.

I’m sure he had told them he had a bomb in the backpack, why else would he wear it I doubt he was planning a hike after the siege but a bomb threat would be all the more reason to end it quickly.


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## Black Devil Dog (16/12/14)

manticle said:


> That's your response to that entire paragraph? Good effort.


Had to leave for an urgent meeting. Hope that's ok. But most of what you wrote was rubbish.

Yesterday, the media kept saying they had minimal information, including that they didn't know if he was acting alone or not. They also mentioned that the authorities had requested that they not divulge details regarding the incident.You might watch/listen to different media, because other than one occassion when there was a run through of the various global terrorist attacks since 9/11, I saw nothing that closely resembled linking this with other attacks.

Well I do feel that it's important to distinguish it from other massacres etc, given the current global situation.

You can have the last word, I know what it means to you.


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## manticle (16/12/14)

> Held to ransom.........really? Seriously mate.


4. hold to ransom
a. to keep (prisoners, property, etc) in confinement until payment for their release is made or received

b. to attempt to force (a person or persons) to comply with one's demands


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## Byran (16/12/14)

I think if the situation warranted it the army would have had a battallion of well trained commandos In the city with shoot to kill orders like they train for on every other weekend. From the beginning it seems that it was just a raving lunatic with some guns being a glory hound and I think the police handled the situation very well. Its been a sad day......


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## Liam_snorkel (16/12/14)

good week to be a florist in sydney city.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/12/14)

The perpetrator came here as a refugee in 2001, has got himself involved in so much illegal activity accessory to murder, sex offences and poison pen letters, but still did not outstay his welcome, I would have thought there would be a one strike and you're out rule.
I also wonder how many other solo jihadists are out there who have now been given some incentive to take part in a similar outrage.


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## 2much2spend (16/12/14)

The fact is that he had a mental illness! 
Mental illness can happen to any of us. So we kneed services to help people not a reaction with a gun. ( not in any way justifying this incident) 
We are one of the richest nations in the world and people that need help struggle to find it.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/12/14)

2much2spend said:


> The fact is that he had a mental illness!
> Mental illness can happen to any of us. So we kneed services to help people not a reaction with a gun. ( not in any way justifying this incident)
> We are one of the richest nations in the world and people that need help struggle to find it.


So, has it been confirmed that Man Haron Monis was mentally disturbed then, or is that just conjecture. I haven't seen any proof of a psychiatric report, though it would suit the powers that be to call it the work of a madman.


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## 2much2spend (16/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> So, has it been confirmed that Man Haron Monis was mentally disturbed then, or is that just conjecture. I haven't seen any proof of a psychiatric report, though it would suit the powers that be to call it the work of a madman.


50 Sexual assaults, murder and Violence's . 
sounds like my neighbor!!!!!


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## 2much2spend (16/12/14)

ALLEGEDLY!


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## 4KingAle (16/12/14)

Good riddance to that oxygen thief..may he burn in the fires of hell


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## Kumamoto_Ken (16/12/14)

manticle said:


> Since there is no one actual accepted definition of terrorism, I guess we could argue that till kingdom come. If it's just instilling terror in people through violence, then I guess Ivan Milat is a terrorist. If it's instilling terror for political or religious motivations then I guess most governments could fit the bill(the word originally referred to the actions of the French state but somehow the state is now immune to such ephitets as everything it does is legitimate).


There might not be one accepted definition of terrorism, but FWIW (not much) the Aus Gov _does _have a definition of a terrorist act (and presumably that act is perpetrated by a terrorist).
Good old Section 100.1 of the Criminal Code Act (1995). http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2014C00793/Html/Volume_1#_Toc405451758

Personally I reckon most of the relevant boxes have been ticked. I s'pose my main question would be about whether he was really trying to advance a cause or just being a nutbag. 


*terrorist act* means an action or threat of action where:
(a) the action falls within subsection (2) and does not fall within subsection (3); and
(b) the action is done or the threat is made with the intention of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause; and
(c) the action is done or the threat is made with the intention of:
(i) coercing, or influencing by intimidation, the government of the Commonwealth or a State, Territory or foreign country, or of part of a State, Territory or foreign country; or
(ii) intimidating the public or a section of the public.

(2) Action falls within this subsection if it:
(a) causes serious harm that is physical harm to a person; or
(b) causes serious damage to property; or
(c) causes a person’s death; or
(d) endangers a person’s life, other than the life of the person taking the action; or
(e) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public; or
(f) seriously interferes with, seriously disrupts, or destroys, an electronic system including, but not limited to:
(i) an information system; or
(ii) a telecommunications system; or
(iii) a financial system; or
(iv) a system used for the delivery of essential government services; or
(v) a system used for, or by, an essential public utility; or
(vi) a system used for, or by, a transport system.
(3) Action falls within this subsection if it:
(a) is advocacy, protest, dissent or industrial action; and
(b) is not intended:
(i) to cause serious harm that is physical harm to a person; or
(ii) to cause a person’s death; or
(iii) to endanger the life of a person, other than the person taking the action; or
(iv) to create a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public.


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## spog (16/12/14)

A horrible event and outcome.
That PIG was walking free in this country because of the law,this countries law,our law. Don't forget it !
The law is the law and that's that,sometimes, as in what has now come to light because of the focus on this heinous event ,you,I,we get pissed off.
A prime case IMO is the case of one Eugene McGee ( a South Australian case that got people very pissed off ,Google it), but the law made a decision and ruling during a long running court case.
Who can change it ?
Who has the power to make the authorities sit up and take notice ?
I believe it has well and truly started with the "I will ride with you" message started on Twitter.
Two people have started a ground swell campaign standing up to narrow minded knuckle dragging pigs the same as the pig in the Lindt shop in Sydney.
I hope for this countries sake that the laws are put under the microscope.....but I won't be holding my breath waiting for a hard as nails reform. 
Not so cheery..spog....


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## Liam_snorkel (16/12/14)

Which laws in particular?


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## Eagleburger (17/12/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Which laws in particular?


we should ask the lawyer of the turd. He has a rich history of enabling guilty people to walk free. Gloats about it on his website.

http://www.conditsis.com/landmark-cases/


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## Airgead (17/12/14)

Allegedly guilty... you know... innocent until proven and all that.

Or don't we believe in that sort of stuff any more.

If you ever get into trouble, you'll be glad of a top flight defense lawyer.

Yes, our system means that a (very) occasional person who should have been locked up isn't and even more occasionally it ends tragically. That isn't a reason to give away vital parts of our legal system like the presumption of innocence and the right of everyone, no matter how vile and unhinged to legal representation.

Legitimate questions to be answered about bail and suchlike, and why the guy wasn't on some sort of alert list, but not a reason to throw away our legal system.


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## Liam_snorkel (17/12/14)

look man, lawyers act under instruction from the client, and everyone is given the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, that's the whole ******* basis of criminal law. If his client says "I want to apply for bail" he is obliged to do so. Maybe you should ask magistrate Darryl Pearce why he granted the bail application? He'll tell you that the prosecution's case against him was weak. The real failing here is the prosecution.

EDIT: to eagleburger


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## mwd (17/12/14)

News coverage way OTT. All day long same old stories trotted out every 10 minutes. Just give us a break. Quick mention of Pakistan where 140 odd killed at a school.

Thoughts and sorrows for families of the two unfortunate victims in Sydney.


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## madpierre06 (17/12/14)

A nation mourning as I heard quoted? Seriously!!! 

A terrible day for the families and victims, the start in a shift in culture in how we must be aware of what is going on around us for sure. The coverage reminds me of when Jill Meagher was murdered, At the same time up in Brissie down Woodridge way (a pretty rough area) a young pregnant Phillipino lass was walking to work in the early hours of the evening and was brutally raped and murdered. Apart from the local news......****ing nada nationally in the vein of the Meagher incident!!! You can bet nationality of the victim had much to do with level of coverage. 

Media will do as much as it takes to get the BS flowing, I saw early on a live feed to a war correspondent in Brissie who apparently has been previously held hostage in the region and they asked him for his thoughts. Seriously, you would have thought he himself was at the scene given the amount of hyperbole. No calm considered thoughts or information, just bloody hype BS.


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## Liam_snorkel (17/12/14)

I think the fact that it happened live on air in the background of the Morning Show played a part.


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## spog (17/12/14)

I wonder if the prick chose that shop because it is situated opposite the TV station to get maximum attention ?


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## MastersBrewery (17/12/14)

I believe debate on this subject is wasteful, at least until *all* the facts are known and the coroners inquest is complete. What we do know is simple.


Window 2, Brave Young Aussie Lost

MB


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## Eagleburger (20/12/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> He'll tell you that the prosecution's case against him was weak. The real failing here is the prosecution.
> 
> EDIT: to eagleburger


That would be my presumption too.


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