# MDF for grain mill mount



## RAD (22/12/14)

Finally got around to buying my own mill and have started making the mount for it. I am using 18mm MDF and was wondering if it should be sealed or it can be left raw? If it does need to be sealed what would you suggest?


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## neo__04 (23/12/14)

I left mine raw. As long as it doesn't get wet, mdf is fine


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## spog (23/12/14)

If its for mounting the unit onto, no worries. If you want you could seal both faces and all 4 edges so it doesn't take up any moisture.
Use a water based varnish or paint,that way you dont have to piss about with turps.
Personally I wouldn't use it for the hopper,which you aren't ,and wear a mask when cutting or sanding that MDF shit.
Cheers....spog....


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## 1974Alby (23/12/14)

left mine raw...keep it dry and its fine


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## MartinOC (23/12/14)

spog said:


> Personally I wouldn't use it for the hopper


Why's that, Spog? I've seen plenty of pic's where MDF has been used & never heard of anyone having a problem with it as hopper-material.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/12/14)

It is a toxic material (formaldehyde) it would be better sealed.I would second spog not to use for a hopper.


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## boybrewer (23/12/14)

I have been using my mill with mdf hopper for around three years . Do you know what the ..................... aaaaagh pfffffft . We also cooked in aluminium , what was I talking about .


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## RAD (23/12/14)

Thanks for your feedback guys I'm only using it for the base my hopper is alley.might seal it to stop it from flaking. 

Cheers
Anthony


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## MartinOC (23/12/14)

OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, as I'm not convinced about this formaldehyde thing. Not an attack, just seeking clarity, since I'm thinking of building a hopper out of MDF for my Crankenstein (bought 10+ years ago & never got around to it).

The way I'm thinking, the only problem folks have as hopper-material would be contact-time, but even so, the contact time with uncrushed OR crushed grain would be negligible, so what's the concern?


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## Camo6 (23/12/14)

I'm not worried. I built my hopper out of unsealed mdf and apart from the odd bit of memory loss the only real problem is the odd bit of memory loss.


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## MartinOC (23/12/14)

Camo6 said:


> I'm not worried. I built my hopper out of unsealed mdf and apart from the odd bit of memory loss the only real problem is the odd bit of memory loss.


 :icon_offtopic: You're a very silly person, Cam, & should be taken from this place to another place where there is no electricity & ......erm...I forget what suitable chastisement would be right now, but choose your own form of flagellation...

Now, back to the question....what's wrong with MDF as hopper material?


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## Camo6 (23/12/14)

Martin, I've been waiting for an invite to Kinglake. Cheers!

However, I'm keen to know if there's any real issue using it too. I'd planned to seal my hopper but never got around to it. I know there's a lot of chemicals in mdf but if it stays dry is it likely to leech into dry grain? If that's the case I have a heap of bunnings shelves that need to be sealed for fear of contaminating anything I put on them.


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## daveHQ (23/12/14)

I'd imagine the risk would be similar to asbestos, in its undisturbed state, perfectly safe, if sanded (atomised) or cut, probably not great if ingested


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## spog (23/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is a toxic material (formaldehyde) it would be better sealed.I would second spog not to use for a hopper.


Yep,it's a man made product,the glues or bonding agents in it are( related to) ,as Weal said formaldehyde , = preserving lab specimens/body parts.
Now I am NOT trying to put anyone off of using it,just be aware.....




daveHQ said:


> I'd imagine the risk would be similar to asbestos, in its undisturbed state, perfectly safe, if sanded (atomised) or cut, probably not great if ingested


The risk is the same with anything we do or use.
As a chippy I ******* hate the shit although I grudgingly use it when and only when I am basically forced to.
But daveHQ, your comment about asbestos to me nails it on the head,I firmly believe that MDF is going to cause some serious health issues and claims in the future.
Again I hate the shit,as a material used in the building industry it's about as stable as a bogan with a paycheck on a Friday night.
Cheers....spog....


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## spog (23/12/14)

MartinOC said:


> :icon_offtopic: You're a very silly person, Cam, & should be taken from this place to another place where there is no electricity & ......erm...I forget what suitable chastisement would be right now, but choose your own form of flagellation...
> 
> Now, back to the question....what's wrong with MDF as hopper material?





Camo6 said:


> Martin, I've been waiting for an invite to Kinglake. Cheers!
> However, I'm keen to know if there's any real issue using it too. I'd planned to seal my hopper but never got around to it. I know there's a lot of chemicals in mdf but if it stays dry is it likely to leech into dry grain? If that's the case I have a heap of bunnings shelves that need to be sealed for fear of contaminating anything I put on them.


Fair questions from both of you,but it all comes down to my personal hatred of MDF.
IMO, build your hopper with whatever you can afford or have handy,but once the manufactures sealing coat has been rubbed away or damaged the fibres which it is made of and the bonding agent are exposed.
Plywood is bonded with the same or similar glues. Man made.
Yet what is sprayed onto " natural" timber/ wood when it is imported into this country, I don't know..
Again my personal choice and the flame suit is on .
Cheers....spog...


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## TheWiggman (23/12/14)

Formaldehyde is produced by the human body. Extra doses of it are not ideal and too much is definitely a no-no. I've dealt with plenty of MDF in the past and avoiding airborne particles of it is, in all examples I've read, strongly recommended. Strongly. 
MDF dust is a known carcinogen to my understanding. Can't be arsed looking it up on the phone but almost certain it is. 
If it's not airborne it's probably ok, but my preference is to err on the side of caution when it comes to contact with foodstuffs. Easy enough to use a different wood or metal product where the negative effects are more certain than MDF. 
Time to donn my suit.


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## kelbygreen (23/12/14)

lol I wouldn't even look once at using it around my house I seen the skirtings where MDF 99% are fine but slowly replacing them as well not safety but I hate the stuff. I do insurance work and alot/most is water leaks or flooding and I have seen a piece of 19mm thick MDF swell upto 45mm when it got wet for long enough.

Again it comes down to cost but you can get better stuff for not much dearer and most woods are treated in a way now so I would be sealing anything, but then the paints got all sorts in it now as well to stop mould growth so best is stainless steel the rest is up to you I cant see it doing much but never know. Or just get getto and use a plastic juice bottle with wide mouth or something haha


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## wide eyed and legless (24/12/14)

Once it is coated it is fine,hard grain husks tumbling down the side could cause particles of MDF to come off but nowadays the formaldehyde is kept to a minimum in the bonding agent. Ply would be a better option but another way of looking at it is, we are making a Group 1 carcinogen so using plastic, brass fittings aluminium, even a galvanised pot to brew in would be a minor health hazard to what our delicious crafted brew can do.


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## Dunkelbrau (24/12/14)

Breathing in the grain dust is bad as well, so is DE, so is any fine powder that will stick to your lungs.

Personally I don't see why we don't just use sheets of tin for the hopper, its a lot less risky and you can get small precut sheets at bunnos.


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## Camo6 (24/12/14)

As I'm slowly being swayed by the harbingers of doom, what would be a good sealer. Just a plain old varnish or a non toxic one you'd use on a kids cot?


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## spog (24/12/14)

Either would be fine.


Though I would use the cot paint....coz that other stuff is no good and will cause your dick to drop off  
Cheers....spog...


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## Alex.Tas (24/12/14)

Oh my god, what about all the treated timber sleepers used in raised garden beds? all the CCA preservative! I'm going to die!

Seriously, MDF poisoning you by using it as a grain mill hopper for the maybe 10-30 batches of beer you make per year? get real.

You would need a decent quantity ground up into your grain bill to make any noticeable difference. You are more likely to get poisoned from cutting the timber to build it than using it in a mill. Like someone mentioned above, when cutting it, wear a P2 respirator.

Beware - bad maths ahead...
It boils below wort (96*C), so any in your brew is likely to be vaporised during the boil.
The STEL (maximum allowable over 15 minute period) is 2.5mg/m3. If you vaporise it all off in say 15 minutes (and for this example you are breathing in all the steam coming off your boiler), you need 0.03mg of formaldehyde in your brew before you go over the STEL set by worksafe Australia. 
A few MSDSs show that the percentage of formaldehyde in MDF is less than 0.1%. lets use 0.1% for the purposes of the calculation.
Therefore if formaldehyde only constitutes 0.1% of MDF by weight, then you need 30mg of MDF in your brew to go over the STEL for it. 

For these calculations remember:

this is if you stood over the kettle and inhaled all of the steam that came off. In reality you are likely to maybe breathe in say 10%, meaning you need to have 300mg of MDF in your brew. 
all of the formaldehyde vaporised off in 15 minutes. it is likely to take longer. If it took twice as long, you would need twice as much MDF in your beer.
I used the estimate of 0.1% formaldehyde in MDF. its likely to be much lower. One MSDS even states 0.0001%, meaning you need *300g* of MDF in your beer).
*Yes formaldehyde is a carcinogen*, *but* the quantity you would be putting into your beer would not be noticeable. 

It's great that people are being cautious, and I certainly wont call you out for being too safe. By all means, don't use MDF, there are probably better alternatives. All I'm trying to do is put some numbers out there so that people wont freak out about using MDF, I believe that in this application, its perfectly fine to use.

Sources: google MSDS
disclaimer - if MDF becomes the next asbestos (I reckon it will be SMF personally) I will not be held accountable for any injury. All info here was found using web searches and my own sub par mathematics.

Edit: Sorry couldn't resist  : http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/SWA/about/Publications/Documents/639/Workplace_Exposure_Standards_for_Airborne_Contaminants.pdf




wide eyed and legless said:


> Ply would be a better option but another way of looking at it is, we are making a Group 1 carcinogen so using plastic, brass fittings aluminium, even a galvanised pot to brew in would be a minor health hazard to what our delicious crafted brew can do.


Ahem, group 2 - possible human carcinogen


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## Camo6 (24/12/14)

So, go with the non toxic varnish yeah?


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## Alex.Tas (24/12/14)

i wouldn't bother personally, but yeah i guess it will help if you are worried.


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## Camo6 (24/12/14)

Nah, not real worried. It's the herbicides, automotive chemicals and twenty years of smoking that I should be worried about. But since having kids I've changed my "she'll be right" attitude so will probably do it at some stage.
Informative thread anyhow.


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## TheWiggman (24/12/14)

Lead-based paint should protect you from any of the dangers of MDF


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## wide eyed and legless (24/12/14)

Quote Alex.Tas. Ahem, group 2 - possible human carcinogen


The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified *alcohol* as a Group 1 *carcinogen*. Its evaluation states, "There is sufficient evidence for the *carcinogenicity* of *alcoholic*beverages in humans.


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## Eagleburger (24/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Quote Alex.Tas. Ahem, group 2 - possible human carcinogen
> 
> 
> The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified *alcohol* as a Group 1 *carcinogen*. Its evaluation states, "There is sufficient evidence for the *carcinogenicity* of *alcoholic*beverages in humans.


Just drink your alcohol with plenty of fluid to wash the toxins out and protein for your liver. That is why beer and sausages grow on the same tree.


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## Alex.Tas (26/12/14)

Ah sorry I thought you were referring to formaldehyde being a class 1. My bad. 

Regardless, the quantity of formaldehyde you would be exposed to by milling your grain from an mdf hopper is laughable.


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## droid (26/12/14)

I hang on to my (tin hoppered) mill with left arm and have the drill connected to the roller via the right hand - kinda rest it all on my belly whilst milling - what could possibly go wrong?

the fine dust from the grain probably aint too good either me thinks - makes me get a little wheezy


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## boybrewer (28/12/14)

So this is where our society is at , all wrapped up in cotton wool . I could go on a rant but I won't . I am trying hard not to rant aaaaaagggh . I can't remember any more was it the lead or maybe the asbestos that I loved to sniff and play with as a kid it could have been the aluminium cooking pots or the carcinogenic smells coming off the new car or maybe this new unleaded petrol that is full of toulene ( which is carcinogenic ) and every f'ing ene in it to make us safe from leaded petrol . Where is me smokes aaaggh light a viscount that's better . Do what you want to do with what makes you happy in making a beer . Sure you can take on board what everyone is saying but if they jump off the cliff do you have to follow ? End of rant .


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