# New To Brew



## QIK86 (27/7/08)

Hey guys,

I've been reading a bit here since I discovered the site and must say, your knowledge on the world of brewing has blown me away. I've learnt more about brewing from my visits here than I have about almost any subject in such a small space of time. So first of all, thank you!

I'm fairly new to brewing, having had a nice result from my first attempt (a Tooheys Special Draught kit), I've got a Coopers Mexican Cerveza ageing in the shed and I'm almost ready to bottle my third and put down my fourth straight away.

My questions involve the one I'm almost ready to bottle. It is a Morgan's Queenslander Lager kit which I did as per the instructions simply adding 1kg of Dextrose and filling to 23L and using the kit yeast. First off, can anyone tell me if the kit yeast is a true lager yeast, or is it a more generic ale yeast to better suit the typical QLD weather?

As we were having a particularly cold snap when I put the brew down, I purchased a heat mat and used that. When I got home from work the next day, the wort was sitting on a constant 28C and had frothed out of the airlock. After more investigation on here, I found the temp was far too high, so turned the heater off. Since then, I have invested in a cheap electrical timer which I have set to a cycle of on for 1 hour, off for 3 hours, which has seen my brew sitting at a steady 18C-20C ever since.

Just wondering though, could the initial 24hrs or so of 28C temperatures have any lasting side effects? I have read about Fusel Alcohols and have myself a little worried.  

My next brew is going to be a Coopers Australian Pale Ale, using the can, 500g Dextrose, 250g Light Dry Malt and 250g Corn Syrup. My first try at something other than the boring old 1kg of Dextrose!  

Thanks in advance for the help guys.


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## KGB (27/7/08)

28 is very high, you might get away with it though if it wasn't for too long - there's only one way to tell though and thats to wait and see! Make sure you give your brews plenty of time to condition as well. Often a pretty average brew can change into a drinkable beer given a couple of months extra.


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## Adric Hunter (27/7/08)

almost no kit yeasts are real lager yeasts, they are just a dry fermenting ale yeast. To check just read the temperature recomendations on the side of the can if it recommends something in the range of 10-14 degrees then it is a true lager, if its higher then its an ale. BTW never fement an ale any higher than about 22 degrees, not 25 which so many cans recommend, for that matter dont use the kit yeasts if you can avoid it, go to a homebrew store and get yourself some premium yeast. You will notice the difference instantly.


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## seemax (27/7/08)

Having just bottled a Coopers Pale Ale can, I would recommend you use more malt and less dextrose. The quantities you mentioned pretty much make up the Brew Enhancer 2, which is about $7 from Big W. That much dex will thin the beer too much.

If you have the time and inclination why not try using using dry malt from your home brew shop, probably cost $9-10 a kg. Use something like 500g malt, 250g dex and 250g corn syrup. 

If you're even more keen, get 200g or so of crystal malt (light), just ask at your local HB shop and they will know what you're after. Heat up 3L of water to about 80C, add the crystal malt and stir very well, it should end up about 70C. Put lid on pan, cover it with a towel or similar and leave it for 30mins. I use a 3L esky so the temp remains constant, but a pan is fine. Well done, you have just hot "steeped" grain! Get a fine sieve and pour the water into your fermentor or kettle if you're planning to do a boil. This will add more flavour and should improve head retention. 

For an even better beer, grab 20g of Pride of Ringwood/Amarillo/Cascade hops from your HB shop, and boil them for 30mins in 2L water. Strain with a fine sieve into the fermentor. This will add a nice bitter edge as well as some subtle flavour/aroma.


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## pablo_h (27/7/08)

seemax said:


> If you have the time and inclination why not try using using dry malt from your home brew shop, probably cost $9-10 a kg. Use something like 500g malt, 250g dex and 250g corn syrup.


Coopers malt sold in department stores is $5.20 for 500g, no need to go to a brew shop for that. Just use 500g coopers malt and 500g coopers brewing sugar.
I've started buying the coopers malt at BigW since my LHBS put the price up on dme to $12kg


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## The Big Burper (27/7/08)

pablo_h said:


> Coopers malt sold in department stores is $5.20 for 500g, no need to go to a brew shop for that. Just use 500g coopers malt and 500g coopers brewing sugar.
> I've started buying the coopers malt at BigW since my LHBS put the price up on dme to $12kg




Somebody is being ripped off. My local HBS sells dried brewers malt at 7.95/kg, and the equivalent of Coopers BE2 for 4.95 a kilo bag. :huh: 

Back on the subject, don't worry too much about high temp brewing, I did it for years
Many brews started on 32 and every one was drinkable. Even used white sugar back in those days, before dextrose became widely available. Also Morgans is one of the better
kit brews, but as others have said, it is an ale yeast, and a good one at that. I think
it is Mauri 514 ale yeast.

cheers,
Dave


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## QIK86 (27/7/08)

Yeah, i got my mix of LDM/Dex/Corn syrup for my next Pale Ale from my LHBS. 5 bucks for a kilo. Although I'm not concerned with price, as I'm happy to pay a bit more to help keep the LHBS in business. So far though it's been cheaper than the department stores anyway.

As for changing the ratios, I may in the future but for this next brew, I want to stick to my plan so I can gradually see what difference it makes. Thanks for the advice so far guys.

Another question, how do you culture your own yeast? I've read of people doing this from Coopers Pale Ale stubbies and would be interested to find out how?


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## Adamt (27/7/08)

The yeast in the Queenslander series of kits is better attuned to higher temperature brewing, however still lower temperatures are preferrable to get cleaner character from the yeast. 20C is a good target.

EDIT: Here is an article on reculturing Coopers yeast, link.


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## 0M39A (27/7/08)

pablo_h said:


> I've started buying the coopers malt at BigW since my LHBS put the price up on dme to $12kg



and im sure you wonder why your lhbs had to put their prices up...


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## seemax (27/7/08)

QIK86 said:


> Yeah, i got my mix of LDM/Dex/Corn syrup for my next Pale Ale from my LHBS. 5 bucks for a kilo. Although I'm not concerned with price, as I'm happy to pay a bit more to help keep the LHBS in business. So far though it's been cheaper than the department stores anyway.
> 
> As for changing the ratios, I may in the future but for this next brew, I want to stick to my plan so I can gradually see what difference it makes. Thanks for the advice so far guys.
> 
> Another question, how do you culture your own yeast? I've read of people doing this from Coopers Pale Ale stubbies and would be interested to find out how?



Culturing yeast is simple. For a 23L batch you'll need a 1L yeast starter. Get 2 Pale Ale stubbies, gently pour off the beer (drink it of course!) until there is about 20% left in each bottle. Boil up 1L of water and 100g of dry malt for about 10mins. Cool it down to about 20C. Thoroughly sterilise a 2L coke bottle and the lid. Pour cooled wort into bottle then add the remainder of the 2 beers. You now have a mini brew. Either put the lid on or just cover it with glad wrap and rubber band. Shake it well every 4 hours. Within 3-4 days it will be ready to do, ideally you should pitch it at full krausen, this is when the foam is at it's peak and the yeast is most lively.

Good luck

Stef


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## pablo_h (27/7/08)

0M39A said:


> and im sure you wonder why your lhbs had to put their prices up...


No why? I was buying from them before they started charging more than any other HB in the country. They're a brewcraft distro, not a tiny independant. The independants I know charge $10kg or less, they're just too far away.


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## QIK86 (28/7/08)

Culturing the yeast sounds easy enough. Would you get a noticable improvement over using dry yeast included in the Coopers kit?

Also, can you do this with any other commercially available beers? Gives the kit brewers like me something else to play with.


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## Bribie G (28/7/08)

While we're on the subject, whilst the idea of culturing the Coopers commercial yeast is excellent - provided your beer recipe is appropriate to type - one thing I have noticed with the many many  many Coopers I have drunk is that, especially with the Sparkling Ale, the trub doesn't cling very well to the bottom of the bottle and swirls up at the first opportunity. It's almost as if Coopers are proclaiming: hey here's the yeast, look at the yeast, man we are pure and natural as you can see from the yeast...did we mention yeast?....  

Great if you like a cloudy beer, but I notice that Morgans generic 'lager' yeasts and particularly their ale yeast, settles out so well that the beer is basically commercial clarity when I pour it.

I've just gone upmarket and bought some saflagers and safales and will be interested to see how they perform in the bottle.


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## QIK86 (30/7/08)

Would using cultured yeast give a noticable improvement over the dry yeast included in the Coopers kit?


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## Hefty (30/7/08)

BribieG said:


> While we're on the subject, whilst the idea of culturing the Coopers commercial yeast is excellent - provided your beer recipe is appropriate to type - one thing I have noticed with the many many  many Coopers I have drunk is that, especially with the Sparkling Ale, the trub doesn't cling very well to the bottom of the bottle and swirls up at the first opportunity. It's almost as if Coopers are proclaiming: hey here's the yeast, look at the yeast, man we are pure and natural as you can see from the yeast...did we mention yeast?....
> 
> Great if you like a cloudy beer, but I notice that Morgans generic 'lager' yeasts and particularly their ale yeast, settles out so well that the beer is basically commercial clarity when I pour it.
> 
> I've just gone upmarket and bought some saflagers and safales and will be interested to see how they perform in the bottle.


My first Coopers Pale Ale with recultured yeast is now a month in the bottle and is the brightest beer I've made yet. Yes, it does still swirl up a little if you agitate it but I'd say not even as much as a bought one.



QIK86 said:


> Would using cultured yeast give a noticable improvement over the dry yeast included in the Coopers kit?


Short answer - Yes.
Longer answer - if you maintain a good and constant temp (16-18*C) you really can notice the pear esters and the slight toasty grain flavour that you get with the commercial version (and I only used the tin, dextrose and DME!).

Jono.


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## DKS (30/7/08)

QIK86 said:


> Would using cultured yeast give a noticable improvement over the dry yeast included in the Coopers kit?
> 
> Improvement or just different depends on your taste. I think its worth it if you have the time and /or patiance especialy when starting out.
> I try to stay away from the 514 supplied with most kits, not that theres anything wrong with them but I aim to make the best beer I can what ever the style. For the amount of time and effort cleanning, sterilising etc a few bucks on premium yeast is well spent. Plus for me that learning curve and experimenting is all part of the fun of home brewing. :icon_cheers:
> ...


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## QIK86 (31/7/08)

Quick question, the SG of the Morgan's Queenslander Lager I'm brewing has been sitting at 1009 for 3 days now. Put down 21/07/08 with the can, 1kg of dex and kit yeast. However the airlock is still bubbling a couple of times a minute. What do you think? Safe to bottle?


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## lobo (31/7/08)

it sounds like its done, but the only way to know is the same hydrometer reading 24hrs apart. 

lobo

edit, stupid, i read the post properly, 'sitting at 1009 for 3 days now'. go for your life!


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## KGB (31/7/08)

'Bubbling a few times per minute' still seems a little too active for my liking, although if your SG reading s are constant I guess it could be just dissolved CO2 coming out slowly rather than CO2 still forming due to fermentation. I'd leave it another day or two to be sure, it won't harm the brew and will probably help it clear a tiny bit more.

As for culturing yeasts from other brews; some beers use a different yeast for bottle conditioning after the beer has been fermented - so collecting and culturing that yeast won't give you similar results to the original brew. Its all on here somewhere if you search


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## Cocko (31/7/08)

The bubbling could be trapped C02 escaping from the beer and fermentation is complete....

However, your brew is still producing gas of some sort so if bottling... hmm.. its your call but 2 more days won't kill but a bottle bomb might!!  

My $0.02

Cocko


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## QIK86 (31/7/08)

It's all bottled! I'll let you know if I've produced any weapons of mass destruction over the next week or so.. haha

On a different note, the Coopers Mexican Cerveza I bottled 2 weeks ago has cleared up very well. Crystal clear in the bottle with only a small layer of sediment on the bottom. Will give it the 2 week taste test tomorrow night.


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## 0M39A (31/7/08)

*the airlock bubbling means nothing!!!*

if your SG has been stable for 3 days and its at a normal fermenting temperature (ie. not cold enough for the yeast to go dormant) then its fine.

kit + kilo of dex then 1009 sounds fine.


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## QIK86 (1/8/08)

Suspended co2 sounds spot on butters. I was getting a good inch of head in some of the bottles when filling them. I let it dissipate before capping though. Would that be the best idea?

As for the airlock debate, relax have another home brew.


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## Interloper (1/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> relax have another home brew.



words to live by my friend.....words to live by


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## QIK86 (7/8/08)

Update on the Morgan's Queenslander Lager... No bottle bombs as yet! 

As for the 2 week Mexican Cerveza taste test, it still has a very slight "green" taste, but is very drinkable. It's crystal clear in the bottle, but has a slight chill haze when cold. It has a great head which is retained well and leaves a nice lace around the glass, although the beer itself is not very fizzy at all. I didn't think you could have one without the other, but it appears as though you can. :huh:

I primed the bottles with pre packaged white sugar sachets (one per 750ml bottle). I did the same for my previous brew, and carbonation was spot on. All I can put it down to so far is the cold snap we had while secondary fermentation/conditioning was taking place. Could this be the cause? As an experiment, I decided to mix the sediment back up in half the bottles and leave the other half as is for a little longer to compare the difference. Do you think this may help at all?

I've got some pics of it I'll post up when my connection stops being difficult..


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## Bribie G (7/8/08)

I've had a kit beer in the fermenter for almost three weeks and it was still giving a little bloop every couple of minutes. One thing I would put it down to is that, with a bit of a headspace (30 litre fermenter) and the tendency to warm up gradually over the day in my garage, the combination of CO2 coming out of the brew and the very slight expansion of the gases in the headspace due to daily warming, it was 'cooked' for sure. Bottled it today but took a hydrometer reading just to make sure the yeast hadn't gone to sleep (Queensland made kit with a yeast more suited to summer brewing) I took hydro reading and it looked fine at about 1005.

I've just got back into fining with gelatine as well, there's a sticky you might want to have a look at. Gives beautifully clear beer.


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## Cocko (7/8/08)

Clear beer... how much better does clear beer taste???

Why are you brewing beer? To produce a product you enjoy drinking or.......

"its so clear I can see through it" - Naked Swedish girl with excessive bosom.

Sorry, had to vent!

:huh:


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## QIK86 (8/8/08)

Not sure if that was directed at me, but I'm not overly concerned if my beer isn't perfectly clear. Just mentioned the chill haze in passing.

I'm more concerned as to why my beer doesn't seem to be properly carbonated, yet has a good head on it.. :huh:


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## Cocko (8/8/08)

Cocko said:


> Clear beer... how much better does clear beer taste???
> 
> Why are you brewing beer? To produce a product you enjoy drinking or.......
> 
> ...



Sorry gents, I had had a few..... I wrote this and have no idea what I was talking about!!!


:blink:


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## QIK86 (11/8/08)

Thanks for the info butters.

It's ok Cocko, we all over-indulge and lose the plot at times.. 

Anyway, I'm putting down another brew in the next few days and I've decided to have my first go at using hops! I've just bought the following.

Coopers Pale Ale Can
500g Light Dry Malt
250g Dextrose
250g Corn Syrup
Cascade Hops Teabag (Will just sit in boiled water for 10mins then throw the lot into the brew just before adding the yeast, as per instructions)

Any opinions on this brew? At the very least it should be a good comparison to my last Coopers Pale Ale brew which is about to be bottled, which was just the can contents with 500g dex, 250g LDM and 250g Corn Syrup.

Looking forward to starting my exploration into the world of hops.


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## QIK86 (11/8/08)

I can't comment on the one I did with 250g malt yet, as I'm only bottling it in the next couple of days. 

So are the hops teabags ok to boil if I choose to go that way? If so, how much water should I boil it in?

By boiling it for 4mins as recommended (it's a 12g bag) would that add both additional bitterness as well as the flavour and aroma?

As for the corn syrup, the dry ingredients are actually a pre-packaged mix from my LHBS, so (short of buying more) the amount can't be altered.


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## QIK86 (11/8/08)

Oh, and here's the pics of the Mexican Cerveza, as promised..


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## QIK86 (12/8/08)

As well as the bitterness, will I still get the same flavour and aroma additions from the bag after boiling as I would if I simply steeped it in hot water?

I'm actually looking at adding some chinook pellets at racking stage too. Is dry hopping the correct term? Would this just entail dropping the pellets into the secondary fermenter after racking from primary? Should I put them in a tied off stocking or something, or just let them float around freely? I'll have to go mail order for these, as my LHBS doesn't keep Chinook. Had never heard of it actually? :huh:


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## QIK86 (12/8/08)

After more research I've decided to skip the racking stage as it seems to pose more risks that the benefits on offer. At least at this stage anyway. 

Is it possible to dry hop into the primary fermentor? If so, when would be the best time to do so? Just after it has reached FG? Then how long should it be left?


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## Bribie G (12/8/08)

I was using hop teabags for just about every brew but they are up to three times the price of just buying the pellets (From Craftbrewer etc) so I have just started putting about 10 to 15 g of pellets straight into the fermenter. So far they seem to settle out nicely and I don't get any greater amount of sediment passing through to the bottles. If I were using flowers however (as some British Breweries still use for late hopping) then I would look at using a stocking to avoid clogging the fermenter tap.

I usually put mine in after about 4 days when the original fermentation has died down because at that stage I top up the brew with boiled (i.e. deoxygenated), cooled water to bring it up to my bottling requirements. (I brew to 24L plus a bit of waste as I bottle in 12 two litre PETs. and like to give the wort plenty of headroom early on)

So at that stage I whack in the pellets as well. My theory is that while the wort is still fermenting steadily any oxygen introduced at that stage will be quickly flushed from the head space.

edit: I have added pellets to two brews at the same time as pitching the yeast and on both occasions most of the hop material seemed to end up smeared up the sides of the fermenter after the initial krausen died down. Seems a waste, I would rather have the hops in the beer, not up the side of the vat


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## Cocko (12/8/08)

Hey QUK86,

Surely by now you trust in the info you are receiving and reading on this site, especially from buttersd70 in this particular thread.... 

I just love the fact you have your own thread for QnA as you go.... I can see this beast ending up 30 pages and you posting on your first AG  

Anyway mate, congrats on your journey so far and the cerveza, looks or is that looked? Good!!

Cheers
Cocko
:icon_cheers:


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## Cocko (13/8/08)

No I AM Annie Wilkes!!!

You will finish the 'post' how I want the post to go!!


:lol: B)


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## QIK86 (13/8/08)

Thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate it. Just like Cocko said, this is like my own little Q & A education into the world of brewing. It's fantastic!


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## QIK86 (14/8/08)

Just wondering, will I have enough fermentables in my planned brew? (Coopers Pale Ale Can, 500g LDM, 250g Dex, 250g Corn Syrup)

Any idea on approximate ABV% from this?


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## petesbrew (14/8/08)

Where was the slice of lime in the cerveza?


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## Pennywise (14/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> Just wondering, will I have enough fermentables in my planned brew? (Coopers Pale Ale Can, 500g LDM, 250g Dex, 250g Corn Syrup)
> 
> Any idea on approximate ABV% from this?




According to this calc http://www.liquorcraft.com.au/wa.asp?idWeb...p;idDetails=107 if you make it to 23 ltrs it'll end up 4.4%


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## QIK86 (14/8/08)

petesbrew said:


> Where was the slice of lime in the cerveza?


I actually tried it with a slice of lemon in the jug last night. Was quite nice and refreshing after a long session of cleaning and sanitising bottles. 



Homebrewer79 said:


> According to this calc http://www.liquorcraft.com.au/wa.asp?idWeb...p;idDetails=107 if you make it to 23 ltrs it'll end up 4.4%



Thanks heaps for that. That calculator is a very handy bit of gear.


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## QIK86 (17/8/08)

Thanks once again butters. I'm sure that calculator will cop a flogging over the next few brews.

As for the marks on the fermenter, I hadn't even considered the possibility. I'm probably putting down a brew tonight so I'll check it first.


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## QIK86 (17/8/08)

Ok, couple of quick questions..

First one is straight forward.. What is the correct dilution rate for Neopink?

Now, if I do the short boil with the Cascade bag as butters suggested and add that at the start, would it be worth then also dry hopping a second Cascade bag after fermentation has slowed? Would this be too much?

Sorry to go on, but this is my first try at using hops and don't want to completely overpower it.

By the way, 23 litres in my fermenter shows as 21.5 litres going by the marks.. Thanks for the tip!


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## buttersd70 (17/8/08)

Cant help you with the neopink question, have never used the stuff.
As to whether you should dry hop as well as the boil....well, this one is purely a matter of taste. Theres no straight answer on it, I'm afraid. There are 2 types of beerlover....hopheads and malt lovers. Personally, I'm a malt lover, so I rarely dry hop at all, cos most of what I brew is based around the malt complexity. (roasting my own grain as I type....love that smell  ) I get enough hop flavour and aroma to balance the malt from the boil, and _within my taste preference_. Other people prefer more hop charcter in their beer. It is still balanced with the malt, its just that the hop flavour is more dominant. 

So you need to work out what your own preference is, on this one. My suggestion, however, would be to hold off on dry hopping o_n this occasion_, as it is your first go with hops. Next brew you do, do it the same (assuming this one turns out good  ), and if you feel that you can handle more hop flavour and aroma, dry hop it for comparison.

And I thought that 23L of actual volume would end up around the 21L mark  . This is why there are so many posts where people say 'my og is lower than expected. why???'. Its cos they think they have 23L in the fermenter, but they actually have closer to 25 :lol:


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## QIK86 (19/8/08)

If I enjoy beers such as LCPA, It'd be a fairly safe bet that I'd enjoy the extra flavour and aroma from dry hopping, correct? (I'll still leave this one as is for a comparison, but just so I know for my next brew.)

Speaking of dry hopping, can anyone recommend a place I might find a stainless steel hop ball to use for this? Craft Brewer don't have any in stock and I haven't seen them in my LHBS. Could I also use one of these for future hop boils to keep things a little tidier than just throwing pellets around?

Anyway, my first hop boil went well. Boiled in the teabag with 1.5 litres of water for 4 minutes, then placed the saucepan into the sink, which I'd filled with cold water. I added some ice to the sink to try and cool it a little quicker, as everything else was taking a little longer than I'd anticipated. (I was too keen to start the boil and forgot to get everything else ready. ) Would the extra time (maybe up to 15/20 mins) spent in the warm water affect the flavour/bitterness at all or is boiling the only way to change the hop flavours given off?


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## wyatt_girth (19/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> Speaking of dry hopping, can anyone recommend a place I might find a stainless steel hop ball to use for this? Craft Brewer don't have any in stock and I haven't seen them in my LHBS. Could I also use one of these for future hop boils to keep things a little tidier than just throwing pellets around?




try a tea shop.....you know....... that sells tea


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## buttersd70 (19/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> If I enjoy beers such as LCPA, It'd be a fairly safe bet that I'd enjoy the extra flavour and aroma from dry hopping, correct? (I'll still leave this one as is for a comparison, but just so I know for my next brew.)
> 
> Speaking of dry hopping, can anyone recommend a place I might find a stainless steel hop ball to use for this? Craft Brewer don't have any in stock and I haven't seen them in my LHBS. Could I also use one of these for future hop boils to keep things a little tidier than just throwing pellets around?
> 
> Anyway, my first hop boil went well. Boiled in the teabag with 1.5 litres of water for 4 minutes, then placed the saucepan into the sink, which I'd filled with cold water. I added some ice to the sink to try and cool it a little quicker, as everything else was taking a little longer than I'd anticipated. (I was too keen to start the boil and forgot to get everything else ready.  ) Would the extra time (maybe up to 15/20 mins) spent in the warm water affect the flavour/bitterness at all or is boiling the only way to change the hop flavours given off?


If you like LCPA, then absolutely go ahead and dry hop. You'll likely not be able to get that much flavour from dry hopping, they use a hopback  .
As for the time spent whislt cooling......that one is a can of worms in the whole plate chiller vs immersion chiller debate.
Short, uber-simplified answer is.....don't stress on it. slightly less aroma, _perhaps _slightly more flavour. With the quantities in use here, quik, its not really worth considering. Particularly if you're going to dry hop as well, which will make any differences between rapid chill/slow chill purely academic.

Good to hear it went off well. :beerbang:


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## QIK86 (19/8/08)

I had no idea such a place existed.. :huh:

I shall keep my eyes peeled.


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## Bribie G (19/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> Speaking of dry hopping, can anyone recommend a place I might find a stainless steel hop ball to use for this? Craft Brewer don't have any in stock and I haven't seen them in my LHBS. Could I also use one of these for future hop boils to keep things a little tidier than just throwing pellets around?



I used hop teabags with my first six or seven kit brews. Now that some of them are approaching two months they are nicely hoppy. For example a Morgans QLD Bitter with LMDE, Dex and a Cluster teabag has turned out (according to the tasting panel) crisper, cleaner and more refreshing than megaswill such as Toohey's New and VB. I didn't use so much water for the boil, just boiled in a small saucepan. 

And here's a tip that I read somewhere: *Gently boil the hop teabag until it stops smelling like new mown grass and smells like hops then tip it into the fermenter with the rest of the wort.*

Usually about ten minutes. Since then however I realised that I can get 90g of pellets from Craftbrewer for the price of 36g of teabag. So I add aroma hop pellets as dry hops four days into the fermentation. 

Doesn't make too much mess but I have taken the 'sediment reduction' inserts out of my taps as that narrow slit can become blocked. I wouldn't be too worried about pellet debris. Some kits like ESB are full of pellets.


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## buttersd70 (19/8/08)

pellets usually sink out, anyway. Usually. But if not, nothing that a good rack can't fix  

The only thing about your big purple statement, though is that some hop types _do _smell grassy, and some people _like _that in some styles. Depends on the hop type.


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## T.D. (19/8/08)

buttersd70 said:


> If you like LCPA, then absolutely go ahead and dry hop. You'll likely not be able to get that much flavour from dry hopping, they use a hopback  .



I beg to differ, you can achieve LCPA levels of hop aroma easily by dry hopping. In fact after brewing several hopburst APAs (and not even dry hopping) I tried a bottle of LCPA and was a little underwheled by the hops. They weren't as "big" as I remembered. A hopback isn't a magic piece of equipment - just one more way of infusing hop flavour and aroma into wort. A large flameout addition will get you very similar results, and dry hopping in my experience gives you even more of a "raw" hop character still.


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## Bribie G (19/8/08)

T.D. said:


> A large flameout addition will get you very similar results, and dry hopping in my experience gives you even more of a "raw" hop character still.


Perhaps wandering a bit off topic here but I have just watched the Late Michael Jackson's Beer Hunter series from Discovery Channel and in the British Ales section he visits Bateman's :icon_drool2: Brewery :icon_drool2: in Lincolnshire (In my 20s went on a cycling trip around the UK and it took me three days to get the sixty ks or whatever through Batemans country  )

The chief brewer says that dry hopping in the cask gives good results but the hopping at flameout gives more consistent results with extraction of some bitterness as well as aroma (shot of trusty British workman pouring hessian sacks of Golding Flowers straight into steaming copper.)


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## buttersd70 (19/8/08)

T.D. said:


> I beg to differ, you can achieve LCPA levels of hop aroma easily by dry hopping. In fact after brewing several hopburst APAs (and not even dry hopping) I tried a bottle of LCPA and was a little underwheled by the hops. They weren't as "big" as I remembered. A hopback isn't a magic piece of equipment - just one more way of infusing hop flavour and aroma into wort. A large flameout addition will get you very similar results, and dry hopping in my experience gives you even more of a "raw" hop character still.



My reference was aimed at the level that qik is currently at with his brewing, and the method he is going to be using, as per his post. An experienced brewer, using hopburst, particularly when combined with dry hopping, is able to achieve this, as you say.

My point was, that employing the methods that qik is going to use, his concerns of it being _too _hoppy are not valid if he likes LCPA.

And bribie, I saw that too.....sack upon sack of lovely golding flowers. Yum!


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## QIK86 (20/8/08)

Hmmm.. I'm now thinking I might throw the other Cascade bag into this brew when fermentation slows down a bit more. Do most people steep it first or just take it out of the foil packet and throw it in dry?

Also, can someone tell me what a hopback is? I understand it's a piece of equipment for infusing hop flavour and aroma into wort, but how does it work?


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## buttersd70 (20/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> Hmmm.. I'm now thinking I might throw the other Cascade bag into this brew when fermentation slows down a bit more. Do most people steep it first or just take it out of the foil packet and throw it in dry?
> 
> Also, can someone tell me what a hopback is? I understand it's a piece of equipment for infusing hop flavour and aroma into wort, but how does it work?



for the bags, 6 of 1, 1/2 doz of the other.

A hopback is a tube filled with hops, when wort is run out of the kettle, it goes through the hops then immediately through a plate chiller, which cools it immediately, so the volatile oils are, for want of a better term, trapped. Beerbelly.com.au sells them and has good piccies if u want to see what one looks like. Nice shiny stainless stuff :icon_drool2:


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## andrewg1978 (20/8/08)

buttersd70 said:


> pellets usually sink out, anyway. Usually. But if not, nothing that a good rack can't fix
> 
> The only thing about your big purple statement, though is that some hop types _do _smell grassy, and some people _like _that in some styles. Depends on the hop type.




I have a stainless tea ball that fits 10gms of pallets. I find perfect to dry hop with from day 1 of fermentation.

+ 1 for racking, but I have also not done this and had no issues with floaties in the beer after keging.


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## buttersd70 (20/8/08)

andrewg1978 said:


> I have a stainless tea ball that fits 10gms of pallets. I find perfect to dry hop with from day 1 of fermentation.
> 
> + 1 for racking, but I have also not done this and had no issues with floaties in the beer after keging.


A lot of people use a hell of a lot more hops than 10g :lol: depends on if you want subtle flavour, or a real kick in the nuts by the hops.
Dry hopping at the start of primary is fine....but again, it is more subtle, as the yeast activity adn co2 production drives off a lot of the volatiles. Not saying don't do it this way, I do myself if I'm after a more subtle and rounded flavour, particularly if it will be drunk green.


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## wyatt_girth (20/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> I had no idea such a place existed.. :huh:
> 
> I shall keep my eyes peeled.




Here's one . Some handy bits and pieces there too. Maybe a call to check what they are made out of.


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## QIK86 (28/8/08)

What scales do people use to measure out such small amounts for things such as hop pellets? Where from/how much, etc? Found myself a big fat tea ball in a kitchen shop too. 

Next brew being planned is below (LCPA style):

1.7kg can Morgans Stockmans Draught
1.5 kg of Morgans Extra Pale Malt Extract
15g of Cascade pellets - 15min
10g Cluster pellets - 15 min
Brewcellar American Ale Yeast (Dry)
12g of Chinook Pellets (dry hopped into primary after fermentation slowed)

I'm having trouble finding the Morgans Extra Pale Malt Extract locally, so could I just use Light Malt Extract from my LHBS? He only sells it in 1kg containers, so I'd have to measure out 1.5kg myself.  Another option would be to use a 1kg Morgan's Master Blend (which are in stock) and then just 500g of the LHBS Light Malt Extract. Would there be a Master Blend suitable for this style?

Also, would the Cluster pellets really add much to it, or could I just substitute more Cascade instead? Just after some opinions.


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## buttersd70 (28/8/08)

You could probably get away with the caramalt master blend (although I have never used it myself.) Its 60% caramalt and 40% pale. You could then make it up with ldme or dme. This would also help with body and head retention.
link

Never used cluster, myself, so don't really know. But my understanding is that chinook is the predominant hop in LCPA, so you could just use more chinook if you wanted too.
Some of the best hop descriptions you will find are given by ross in the craftbrewer store...all the data you need, plus substitution suggestions.


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## Cocko (29/8/08)

Possibly the most worn keys on members key pads LCPA!!

Anyway, for K&K maybe check this thread: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...307&hl=LCPA

Werd.


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## QIK86 (29/8/08)

I've read that thread thoroughly Cocko. The recipe I'm planning is very similar to Boonie's as mentioned in that thread.

Butters, you mentioned I could use the Caramalt Master Blend and make it up with LDME or DME. Would it make any difference if I was to make it up with a liquid LME instead of dry?

I may still hunt down a 1.5kg can of Extra Pale Malt Extract, but am still just looking at other options at this stage in case I can't find it.

On a different note, I just scored a case of LCPA pints (568ml) for $21.99. A somewhat slow Dan Murphy's employee made a slight boo boo at the checkout and only charged me for a 4 pack instead of a case!! :beerbang: I've never swiped my eftpos card and entered my pin number so quickly. :lol:


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## mwd (29/8/08)

Should have been straight back and bought another 5 cases. Save you brewing APA could do something else. 

Its about $20.00 for a sixpack small ones up here.


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## buttersd70 (29/8/08)

QIK86 said:


> Butters, you mentioned I could use the Caramalt Master Blend and make it up with LDME or DME. Would it make any difference if I was to make it up with a liquid LME instead of dry?



Well, wheter dry is better/worse than liquid is a bit of a debated issue, but its for the most part to do with (ease of) process rater than actual end result.
Personally, when I was doing full extract brews, I would use as much liquid malt as I could use for full tins, and any shortfall in gravity I would make up with dry, purely because you can reseal a bag of dry and shove it in the cupboard. There is more variety in the liquid tins, ie xttra light, light, amber, dark, etc compared to the dry, which is usually only light. (if you can get it, there is xtra light, amber and dark, but they are harder to source.)
I never did a side by side with one made with all dry vs all liquid.

The short answer then, is that if less than a full tin is required, just make it up with dry imho.

Just bear in mind the difference required due to the moisture......1kg dry=1.25kg liquid, 1kg liquid = 800g dry. (ie, liquid malt is 80% malt, 20%water. Technically, dry is only 97-98%, but the small amount of water is usally discarded in calculations.)


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## QIK86 (1/9/08)

Just bought a Fermentis US-05 Yeast from CraftBrewer, after reading a couple of bad reports of the Brewcellar American Ale yeast on here. Had me worried.  I'll still use it in the future, but I want this brew to be a good one.

Now thinking I might just use 2kg of the LHBS liquid Light Malt Extract. Going by Butters' K+K attenuation .xls, if made up to 23 litres, OG should be around 1049 and it should end up around 4.86% ABV + priming, so won't completely blow anyone's socks off.

Do you think I should up the hops boil time slightly to allow for the extra malt?


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## buttersd70 (1/9/08)

You will need to balance the additional malt, but as I've never used the stockmans draught tin so have no idea how bitter it is in the first place.....which makes it a bit of a hard question to answer.

If someone that has brewed this tin with a malt/dex combo without additional hops can give you an impression of how balanced the bitterness was with the malt they used (ignoring any dex or maltodex in their mix), you could use the following to balance 2kg ldm.

if the bitterness was at a good level with :
250g ldm add 11ibu
500g ldm add 9ibu
750g ldm add 7 ibu

I'd take a _guess _on it needing 10ibu. But this is only a guess. But I think it might be a safe-ish middle ground.


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## QIK86 (1/9/08)

Not sure if it's of any help, but after a quick search I found the Stockmans Draught Tin is 28IBU/23lt. From a post by Butters of all people..   Another search turned up the fact that LCPA is around 35IBU.

From most accounts of similar recipes using the can + 1.5kg of liquid malt extract, the hop boil times mentioned above worked well. So I just need to know how much longer to boil them to balance the additional 500g of liquid malt.

Butters, even if someone can tell me the exact IBU needed to be added, (as you mentioned, probably around 10IBU) how do I know how much longer to boil the hops for? Is there some kind of formula I can use to work it out?


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## buttersd70 (1/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Not sure if it's of any help, but after a quick search I found the Stockmans Draught Tin is 28IBU/23lt. From a post by Butters of all people..   Another search turned up the fact that LCPA is around 35IBU.
> 
> From most accounts of similar recipes using the can + 1.5kg of liquid malt extract, the hop boil times mentioned above worked well. So I just need to know how much longer to boil them to balance the additional 500g of liquid malt.
> 
> Butters, even if someone can tell me the exact IBU needed to be added, (as you mentioned, probably around 10IBU) how do I know how much longer to boil the hops for? Is there some kind of formula I can use to work it out?



I dont remember posting that :lol: . Wonder where I got that info from? :huh: 
To work out the amount of IBU in the boil, you need to use a calculator of some sort, such as the one on Glenn tinseths homepage, or a program like brewsta or beersmith.....it can be worked out manually, but the maths is a PITA.

So you do your boil in a volume of known OG, but you use the final volume in the calculation...easier than it sounds and I've tried to explain it before but have trouble putting the concept into words without making it sound really complex....


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## buttersd70 (1/9/08)

If you add 1kg of the lme and make up to 5L for the boil, the BG is 1062.
15g cascade (assuming 4.5%AA) and 10g cluster (assuming 5.5%AA) boiled for 15min will give 7IBU when added back into the 23L final.
Add the other liquid and the kit at the end of the boil, just to disolve nicely, top up to 23L and bingo.

On a side note...when using liquid malt in cans, I don't see any need to boil (other than what you need for the hopping), as it is sterile in the can. Just sanatise the outside of the tin and the can opener. Dry malt is a different story, cos its not hermetically sealed in a sterile tin, and as Bribie has said in another thread, you don't know who may have sneezed in it in the factory :lol: .

LCPA is 5.2% in the bottle, so 1049ish sounds right, once its primed.....35IBU sounds about right, too....70%BUGU.

EDIT. DUH. Morgans state the IBU of their tins on the website. Thats where I got the info. :lol:


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## QIK86 (1/9/08)

Where can I find a working bitterness calculator? The one on Glenn Tinseth's page is not working for some reason.

Just to be a pain in the ass, would there be any difference if I were to substitute an extra 10g of Cascade (4.5%AA) instead of 10g of Cluster (5.5%AA)?


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## buttersd70 (1/9/08)

unfortunately for some reason the metric one on tinseth doesn't work <_< 
But the java one on his sight does, but you have to convert all values to yank weights. :angry: 

As for the sub, it would only make 0.57 IBU difference, absolutely sweet FA.

Oh, and I was only guessing at the alphas anyway, so your mileage may vary  

Edit...you can also use a program like brewsta, which is free. download link is here (yes, promash and beersmith _are _better.....but for quick IBU calcs as opposed to formulating recipes in full, I think it has it's place.)


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## QIK86 (2/9/08)

The Cascade pellets I'll be using for the boil are actually 6.3%AA. By the way, do I bring the water to temp then add the LME, or start by boiling the LME on its own then add the water? 

This will be my first all malt beer and my first extract boil, so just to clarify procedure...

Let me know if anything is wrong/could be better.

1. Boil 1kg LME and enough water to make it up to 5lt
2. Add 25g of Cascade (6.3%AA) and boil the lot for 15mins (enough bitterness for the 2kg of LME??)
3. Turn off heat, add another 1kg LME and Stockmans Draught Can contents, stir to disolve
4. Cool pot in ice bath
5. Add to fermenter and top up to 23lt, add yeast when at correct pitching temp, etc, etc.. Done.

How does it look?


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## buttersd70 (2/9/08)

If you boil the lme on its own, it will scorch. Bring the water ( or a good proportion of it at least) up to hot, take off heat, add lme and dissolve, then back on heat and bring to boil.

for the other q's
1 yes
2 yes (yes). although, this will give 8.8ibu (now I know the alpha.) 20g will give the 7IBU you were initially looking for. But its bugger all difference.
3 yes
4 and 5 - maybe. This is one way, another way is, because the boil is such a small amount, instead of chilling it, you can add straight to fermenter and top up to 23L. If your water is cold enough, it will chill immediately and be straight at pitching temp.  . At this time of year, water straight from the tap might even do it, but to be sure, chuck a couple or 4 litres in the fridge the night before, and as you hit 20L, take the temp (with a sanitary thermometer). If its over, go the cold, if its under, use the kettle, if its on track, use the tapwater.

Congrats on all malt, matey. Have you doing extracts or even AG soon.


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## QIK86 (8/9/08)

Well, it all went rather smoothly. A couple of issues I had though.. I filled the tea ball with the 25g of Cascade pellets for the boil and threw it in once it was boiling. I noticed they swelled and looked somewhat trapped in the ball. I felt sorry for the poor hops and opened the tea ball to let them swim free, instantly releasing noticably more aroma (and I assume flavour). I then found I was without a strainer, so into the fermenter it all went, hops and all.

Will this be ok? Will they evenetually settle out in the fermenter or will they end up in the bottles? I noticed my first hydrometer sample since fermentation started was filled with hop residue, so i tipped it out and got another.

My OG was 1.052, which was a little higher than expected. Now, after 4 days it has already dropped to 1.011, so the yeasties have been rather busy! Is this normal for US-05? (This was my first brew with anything other than kit yeast) Initial fermentation temp was a little higher than I would have liked at 22-24. I've had it down to 20 with some wet towels the last couple of days though. Tasted the hydrometer sample this morning and it was surprisingly good already! Very LCPAish.

I'm planning on dry hopping the Chinook pellets in the tea ball tonight. Only 12g, so they should have some more room to move than the 25g of Cascade did in there. Should I steep before adding or just throw in dry?

Also, I'm planning on bulk priming with dextrose this time. Is it 6g per litre? I read the correct amounts somewhere but can't find it now. Also, how much water to dissolve it in? 500ml?


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## Steve (8/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Well, it all went rather smoothly. A couple of issues I had though.. I filled the tea ball with the 25g of Cascade pellets for the boil and threw it in once it was boiling. I noticed they swelled and looked somewhat trapped in the ball. I felt sorry for the poor hops and opened the tea ball to let them swim free, instantly releasing noticably more aroma (and I assume flavour). I then found I was without a strainer, so into the fermenter it all went, hops and all.
> 
> Will this be ok? Will they evenetually settle out in the fermenter or will they end up in the bottles? I noticed my first hydrometer sample since fermentation started was filled with hop residue, so i tipped it out and got another.
> 
> ...



The hops in the primary will be fine, they will settle. Just keep your eye on the inside of the fermenter and stop racking when the gunk/sludge gets close to the tap when you are tipping it up. I always pour the first lot of hydro sample wort down the sink and measure the second sample because of the extra gunk. Chuck the chinook in dry. Make sure you sterilise the hop ball in a bowl of boiling water first though. Heres a link with some info on bulk priming. Ive not used dextrose so cant remember the quantities per litre. I used to only dissolve in 250mls. I only used plain white sugar and would probably use 150gms in an APA.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=68

Cheers
Steve


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## buttersd70 (8/9/08)

Qik, agree with steve re hops settling and usage.
As far as priming is concerned, there is a good calculator here
For the temperature in the calculator, you put in the highest temp that the brew has experienced during fermentation (it's used to work out how much residual co2 is left in solution.)
Personally I use dex for priming, as it is a simple ferment due to it being a monosaccharide. I would probably aim for 2.5-2.7 volumes for this one.

Don't worry about the OG being high, its only 3 points higher than predicted, which in the grand scheme of things is SFA. Hydrometer reading error, temp difference, slightly under volume, whatever, it doesn't take much to push 1049 up to 1052. So all is good.


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## QIK86 (8/9/08)

Cheers for that Steve.

And thanks for the calculator Butters. It's probably splitting hairs, but when entering the volume, do you use the initial volume, or volume to be bottled? (i.e. Initial volume less hydrometer samples and trub?)


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## buttersd70 (9/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Cheers for that Steve.
> 
> And thanks for the calculator Butters. It's probably splitting hairs, but when entering the volume, do you use the initial volume, or volume to be bottled? (i.e. Initial volume less hydrometer samples and trub?)



For the online bitterness calculator? Volume to fermenter, ie after loss to evaporation, break, and deadspace (and, technically, cooling loss). Although, for partial boils, particularly when doing hopped kits and extract brewing, loss to evaporation isn't generally accounted for, due to the fact that it's water boiling out of the pan, and you're going to be adding water to make it up to your recipe volume anyway....so any water evaporated out of the boiled wort is made up in the water addition at the end, anyway. So what you lose on the swings you make up on the roundabouts. Break and deadspace...for kits, it's usually just all chucked in anyway. There are some people that will argue untill they are blue in the face that this causes negative impact, due to hot break going in etc. However, extract is produced by evaporation of wort, which has already had hot and cold break precipitated during manufacture.....so boil in however many L, then top up to 23L (or whatever). Use 23L for the volume in the calc, but for the gravity, use the actual gravity of what is being boiled.

Once its in the fermenter, any further loss (such as hydro readings etc) reduces the volume, but the loss has the same bitterness as the main batch itself, so it doesn't cause it to concentrate at all. Loss to trub effects it on a technical level, because the (solid component of the) trub itself is precipitated from the volume, thus changing the concentration of the wort (marginally). But on a practical level, the precipitation also strips a certain amount of isomorised alpha, so it (kinda sorta) evens out. I don't know anyone that is anal enough to even calculate the effects of precipitation on IBU. Basically, once it;s in the fermenter and cooled to pitching temperature, you consider it to be a done deal. Any loss from that point on is considered to be a volume loss of final product, and doesn't effect final results.

If you decide to use Brewsta, give me a pm and I'll either post or send you some screenshots showing an example partial boil entered, cos theres a couple of ways of doing it, all give the same result, just worked out differently.


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## QIK86 (9/9/08)

Butters, your knowledge truly astounds me. :blink: I'll come back and read that post again in a couple of months. 

I almost feel bad admitting it now, but I actually meant the volume to be entered into the Priming Calculator..


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## buttersd70 (9/9/08)

Sorry mate, as you can tell, I get a bit lost with what I'm posting and to whom sometimes, and I deal with a few different calculators :lol: 

With the priming calculator, its the amount of beer that is available to bottle once off the trub....so what I do is, I have all my cubes that I will rack to marked with a scale. (hours of fun when buying new cubes, filling them 1 litre at a time and marking off the results  )

There are then 2 ways you can do a good _accurate _prime. 

the first is to rack, then add the dex disolved in 1/2-1 cup boiling water. Stirring can be more awkward, but you always get a good true measure. The second is to add the dex disolved in 1/2-1 cup into the bottom of the cube, and then rack onto it. I never do the second way on the odd occasions that I go straight from primary, cos its too hard to judge the losses, and if you put enough priming sugar in for 22L and only end up with 20L, you cant take the sugar out again....but if your going from secondary to prime, its not so bad, as the loss is usually pretty damn small anyway, and can be either discounted or judged pretty accurately.

Now accuracy in the prime isn't _necessarily _that crucial. It becomes more problematic at the high and low end, ie if aiming for 2vol, if you underprime, it will be flat, and if aiming for 2.9vol, if you overprime, you could get bombs (particularly in glass). If youre aiming for somewhere in the middle, say 2.5vol, you have leeway either way. As long as you're not ridiculously off, slightly under will still have fizz, slightly over won't explode. It's best to aim as close as you can to what you want, though. The only thing worse than a flat APA is an aggressively carbonated Best Bitter. :lol: You'll probably be looking at a likely 2.5 to 2.7 vol for your recipe


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## QIK86 (10/9/08)

Cheers butters. I think I'm going with 170g of dex at this stage.

Also, just had a thought regarding reducing any possible hop sediment in the finished product..

Could I use a sanitised stocking tied over the end of the sanitised tube, held on with an equally sanitised rubber band while transferring from the primary fermenter to the fermenter I'll bottle from? Should catch any undesirable chunks should it not?


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## buttersd70 (10/9/08)

you could, but there shouldn't be much (if any) coming through anyway, it normally settles out and sinks in the fermenter. If you just clear the tap and discard, then rack out, paying attention as it gets to the bottom so you don't pick up the crap off the bottom, there should be bugger all coming through anyway.

If you do feel the need, if you stretch it over the tap itself, and then push the tube over it, so that its on the one your racking from instead of at the bottom of the hose inside the one your racking to. If you do have a lot of floaties, and it causes a blockage, then it will be easier to clear at the top end than at the bottom.


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## QIK86 (11/9/08)

Good thinking butters.

On a side note, I can't believe the attenuation of this US-05 yeast compared to kit yeasts I'd been using up until now! Looks like FG will be 1.009 (down from 1.052). Bulk priming and bottling on the weekend.


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## buttersd70 (11/9/08)

Doing mainly English, and have never used us05 myself, but I hear its the ducks nuts. I'm actually boiling an APA (shock horror) as we speak, and am going to pitch us05 into that.


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## QIK86 (11/9/08)

What recipe, out of interest?


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## buttersd70 (11/9/08)

An AG. 3.5k trad ale, 0.8 munich 2, 0.25kg caraaroma. og 1042, amarillo throughout to 30ibu. Us05, then further dry hop with more amarillo (if I can nick some off Muckey, cos I misweighed what I had, and only had enough for the boil :lol: )


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## under (12/9/08)

It all sounds great.

I went with QIK86s receipe out of the blue - 

Coopers Pale Ale Can
500g Light Dry Malt
250g Dextrose
250g Corn Syrup
Cascade Hops Teabag (Will just sit in boiled water for 10mins then throw the lot into the brew just before adding the yeast, as per instructions)

My LHB shop said that should be fine. OG seems a little high at 1048.

Hopeing it turns out ok. I just bottled my Coopers lager this morning. Cant wait til its ready.


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## buttersd70 (12/9/08)

Under,
1048 is high, its probably a case of the adjuncts not being fully disolved or the tap having undisolved adjunct in it when you drew your sample. This should be 1039 in 23L, but I wouldnt worry about it, it'll still ferment out. keep the temp 18-20 and it should be good.


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## under (12/9/08)

It looked pretty clear in the tube. And I couldnt see any undissolved bits in the fermenter.

Maybe it could be the Hydrometer. Probably stuffed. Actually I think it is because its reading H20 at above 1000.

Yeah im trying to keep it around the 20 mark. The room that the fermenter in sits around 20 day/night.

All is good. We can only wait and see how it goes.


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## Cocko (13/9/08)

Cocko said:


> I just love the fact you have your own thread for QnA as you go.... I can see this beast ending up 30 pages and you posting on your first AG



Gold.. its happening!!


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

Cocko said:


> Gold.. its happening!!



1/5th of the way there.  When we get to page 10, qik should be starting extracts....partials on page 20....AG on page 30


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## Cocko (13/9/08)

You have a firm grip of his hand.. I reckon he/we will cross the road by 15!!

God damn, I go AG tomorrow!! BIAB of course  

Hopefully he sends PM's of appreciation to those who help!!  

hehehe


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

PMs not required, as thanks enough are given in the thread...not everyone has stalker tendancies.  

Good to hear you're going the grain, mate. :beerbang: Good luck for tommorrow.


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## Cocko (13/9/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Good to hear you're going the grain, mate. :beerbang: Good luck for tommorrow.



Cheers mate..... full review to come!!

F*ck AG better be better than anything else... or I will wearing pocket lint for shoes and SWMBO will be on the porch with a double barrel

She doesn't understand....... Butters, trevc, adamt, TB, PP, FNQ, fents and many more... and all of you MADE ME DO it!!!!





Anyway, how do you talk up a keg setup???


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## reviled (13/9/08)

Cocko said:


> F*ck AG better be better than anything else...



It will be  Dont worry matey!


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## QIK86 (13/9/08)

I haven't actually tried a bottle of that one yet. I'm hoping it will be a nice drop. For both our sakes now.. haha 

I can't remember what my OG was for it off the top of my head. I'll check my notes when I get home and let you know.


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

How longs this one been in the bottle now, qik? 2,3 weeks?


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## QIK86 (13/9/08)

Just over 2 weeks if my memory serves me correctly. I need to start bringing my brew log xls into work on a CD so I can answer these things! haha

The CPA I did with 500g Dex, 250g LDM, 250g Corn Syrun is drinking nicely now after a month, so I'll probably leave the hopped version a little longer yet before I try it. Especially since carbonation has been on the light side.


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## under (15/9/08)

What should my FG be. Being that the OG was high at 1048. 

Day 4. No airlock activity. Sg is about 1012 at present.


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## buttersd70 (15/9/08)

As I said, i think you're OG was wrong. With the ingredients, sg 1008-1010 sounds about right. If your OG was, in fact, correct, 1010-1012. There are a lot of factors affecting fg which are not known in k&k brews (and are hard to control completely anyway), so any fg calculation is only a best guess. As long as you get to a sg that is sensible (ie, not ridiculously high for the adjuncts used), and get stable sg over 2-3 consecutive days, it should be fine.


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## QIK86 (15/9/08)

Well, good news. My first bulk prime went off without a hitch.

I didn't bother with the stocking in the end. Definitely no need for it. The beer tasted fantastic going into the bottles. Even beside a real LCPA I was indulging in while bottling! 

I did find the tea ball a little disappointing though. Again, the Chinook seemed "strangled" in the ball. When I opened it up the aroma was incredible. Hopefully some made it into the beer. Thinking next time I might just throw the pellets straight into the fermenter and forget the ball all together.

Now for my latest problem... What to brew next??  Any suggestions?


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

The last 2 brews, I've been getting mould around the thread of the lid of the fermenter. Is this anything to worry about? It concerns me when opening the fermenter to dry hop that some might fall into the brew. Could it just be from leaving a wet towel around it?

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about.


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

I've decided I'm going to make a JSGA style beer next. Something like this:

1.7kg can of goo (Not sure which one yet. Suggestions?)
1kg Morgans Masterblend Caramalt
1kg Morgans Masterblend Wheat Malt
15g Amarillo @ 15min
15g Amarillo @ 5min
15g Amarillo dry hopped 
Brewcellar American Ale Yeast


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## Fents (16/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> The last 2 brews, I've been getting mould around the thread of the lid of the fermenter. Is this anything to worry about? It concerns me when opening the fermenter to dry hop that some might fall into the brew. Could it just be from leaving a wet towel around it?
> 
> Here's a pic of what I'm talking about.



Qik that looks shocking imo. The brown ring stain on the inside is fine (krausen ring) but that mould on the thread of the lid is a big NO imo. Wipe it all off, bleach the whole fermenter, rinse it, bleach it again and rinse a few more times and just when you think you've rinsed enough go a few more rinses as bleach smell is a tad hard to get off.


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## Barramundi (16/9/08)

good advice fents but id go a step further and give that sucker a full soak in a tub of caustic kill anything that might be livin on that plastic, that green gear isnt a good thing , ya dont want that spreading into the drum


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll give it a good soak in bleach. 

So how can I avoid it happening in future? Is it just from the constantly wet towel being wrapped around it?

Edit: I recall reading about a water, bleach and vinegar solution that is supposedly tops. Can't find the dilution rates now though. Anyone know what I'm talking about?


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## Barramundi (16/9/08)

Qik add your location to your profile , id say as a guess its something to do with the wet towel ... why ya using it ? get ya self a 100 can cooler and a few blocks of ice , even better a fermenting fridge ...


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## bouncingcastle (16/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. I'll give it a good soak in bleach.
> 
> So how can I avoid it happening in future? Is it just from the constantly wet towel being wrapped around it?
> 
> Edit: I recall reading about a water, bleach and vinegar solution that is supposedly tops. Can't find the dilution rates now though. Anyone know what I'm talking about?



I'd hit that with "exit mould" (I think its a Hydrogen Peroxide solution anyway) and then think about sanitising...

How long are you keeping it wrapped in a wet towel for?

I know what you're talking about with the vinegar...
Thanks to butters this is the quote

"buy 2L of unscented, plain bleach. Homebrand is fine.
buy 2L of white vinegar. Again, homebrand is fine, but it must be white vinegar, not malt or wine or anything else.
In the bottom of the fermenter put 1.9L of the bleach. This amount is for a 30L fermenter, if yours is different size, its 62.5ml per Litre. Put in all your other brewing equipment.
fill the fermenter almost to the top water, just regular tap temperature.
add the same amount of vinegar as the bleach, so 1.9L for a 30L fermenter. Stand back a little when you do this, definately do not put your head over it....it will start to produce chlorine gas. Dont breath it in. NEVER add vinegar (or any other acid) directly to undiluted bleach (or any other alkali.) always add the alkali to the water, then add the acid.
top up with water, and put the lid on. make sure the inside of the lid is in contact with the water. (if it was full, it should be.)

allow this to stand for 20 minutes. Open the tap and allow it to drain out. Rinse well with water.
refill the fermenter to the top with water, allow it to stand for another 5 minutes, then drain. This is really just to make sure on the rinse, if its rinsed really really well, you could get away with not doing it. But I would.

You're now good to go. This concentration of acidulated bleach is what microbiologist reccomend for killing anthrax. If you get an infection after doing this, then it's just proof that god must hate you. . Some may consider this to be massive overkill, and it probably is. But if you have that little nagging doubt at the back of your mind re infection, this will put it to rest once and for all.

If not using the fermenter immediatly, just re-sanitise it with 8ml bleach in 5L of water, with the 8mL vinegar added at the end. (medicine cups, or dosing syringes from the chemist are great for this.) Put it in fermenter, shake to ensure it has contacted all inside surfaces, run some through the tap, and empty out. Only 30seconds to a minute contact time required. You could leave it to drain for a couple of minutes, just to get the excess out, but at this lower concentration, its a safe no rinse. (i also do this immediately after brewing, after its been rinsed out with water and cleaned, so that it can store without going as funky. Lets face it, 8ml bleach and 8ml vinegar is so cheap its ridiculous.)"

That will kill anything that could possibly go anywhere near the ferementer.

Cheers,

Chris.


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

I'm in Maryborough QLD. Using the wet towel to try and keep ferment temps low. Struggling to get it under 22-24 without it at the moment.

I've been looking for a 100 can cooler but can't find them! Fermenting fridge may well be a future addition. We just got rid of an old working fridge too. Maybe I could get it back...


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## buttersd70 (16/9/08)

bouncingcastle said:


> Thanks to butters this is the quote



Seeing as how a repetition of this post got me flamed in another thread, I feel compelled to state the opposing argument here (whether I agree or not  ) in order to prevent a flame war happening in this nice, cheery thread.

Some people disagreed vehemently with this method, because in their opinion...
it can be dangerous. (which is a valid point, I go to lengths to point that out myself)
they believe that the acetobacteria is detrimental to yeast health
they believe that chlorophenols (spelling?) will effect the beer afterward.
they believe that acidification of the bleach does not improve its microbial abilities.

So there. That is the other side to the coin. The info is there, qik, and it's up to _you _to interpret it, for good or ill. for further info, there is a summary of the findings presented to he 2006 ASM (American Society of Microbiologists) Biodefense Research Meeting here and the interview with Charlie Talley, founder of Five Star Chemicals (on using the same thing but much more diluted as a no rinse sanatiser) is here


But I know what I'd be doing. Either way, scrub all the mold off, before sanatising.


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## bouncingcastle (16/9/08)

h34r:

:chug: 

Can I come out now


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## Steve (16/9/08)

QIK - ive never seen mould like that on a fermenter  . (Maybe on the inside of a dead fermenter). But yours looks brand new. When cleaning your fermenter dont forget to do the rubber o-ring and the inside of the lid with the same solution. How long did you have your beer in primary for that to appear?
Cheers
Steve


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## buttersd70 (16/9/08)

bouncingcastle said:


> Can I come out now



lol, yes you can :lol: . I just thought I would stop any argument on this particular process before it starts, as certain people ( h34r: ) can be rather condescending and insulting in their responses.


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

bouncingcastle said:


> How long are you keeping it wrapped in a wet towel for?


About 2 weeks.



Steve said:


> QIK - ive never seen mould like that on a fermenter . (Maybe on the inside of a dead fermenter). But yours looks brand new. When cleaning your fermenter dont forget to do the rubber o-ring and the inside of the lid with the same solution. How long did you have your beer in primary for that to appear?
> Cheers
> Steve


I must admit, now I think about it, I haven't sanitised the thread for the lid before. I always put the lid on to shake the solution around in the fermenter, then drain it out. So it contacts the inside of the lid, but not the thread. I shall be more vigilant with this in future.

And butters, thanks for the info on that. As you said, you have presented both sides and I can now make an educated decision for myself. I'll use it. Although I might also fill the sink with the solution and stand the fermenter in it upside down to really give the thread a seeing to. Thanks again.


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

On a different note, my next brew is going to be in the style of JSGA, which I have read contains 30% wheat malt. I was wondering, would the Morgans Golden Sheaf Wheat Beer kit be 100% wheat malt? If not, does anyone know the approximate break up of wheat vs barley? I thought I read somewhere wheat malt is usually only about a 50/50 mix of wheat/barley??

If that is the case, the below recipe should give about 25% wheat malt, which would be close enough for me. What about colour and IBUs, any ideas? I may be way off, so feel free to tell me! 

1.7kg can Morgans Golden Sheaf Wheat Beer
1kg can Morgans Masterblend Caramalt
800g LDME
15g Amarillo @ 15mins
15g Amarillo @ 5mins
15g Amarillo dry hopped
US56 yeast


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## buttersd70 (16/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Although I might also fill the sink with the solution and stand the fermenter in it upside down to really give the thread a seeing to. Thanks again.



A good idea, IMHO



QIK86 said:


> On a different note, my next brew is going to be in the style of JSGA, which I have read contains 30% wheat malt. I was wondering, would the Morgans Golden Sheaf Wheat Beer kit be 100% wheat malt? If not, does anyone know the approximate break up of wheat vs barley? I thought I read somewhere wheat malt is usually only about a 50/50 mix of wheat/barley??



Wheat kits are generally in this region, some are 50/50, some 55/45, some 60/40. Little difference, imho. Never had JSGA myself (being very english=centric) but it sounds like a good'n. DrSmurtos golden ale is popular, and he has a k&b recipe for that floating around.


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## QIK86 (16/9/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Wheat kits are generally in this region, some are 50/50, some 55/45, some 60/40. Little difference, imho. Never had JSGA myself (being very english=centric) but it sounds like a good'n. DrSmurtos golden ale is popular, and he has a k&b recipe for that floating around.


I think I stole the hop schedule from DrSmurto's recipe actually.  He recommends using a can of Coopers Sparkling Ale though, with no wheat malt. Thought using the wheat kit might make it a little more authentic?


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## buttersd70 (16/9/08)

Unless he has more than 1 version floating around....cos I cut and pasted this from one of his threads, ages ago, and never got around to trying it.


> 1 kit coopers sparkling ale
> 1 can coopers wheat malt
> 250g JW caramalt steeped - skipped this sometimes
> 15 g amarillo @ 15, 5 minutes and dry hopped in secondary or keg
> US56



The use of the morgans caramalt and the dme, and the wheat kit as the hopped base (instead of the other way around) would make it much of a muchense, just 2 different ways of achieving the same thing, so should be good.


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## QIK86 (17/9/08)

Ah.. I may have skimmed over the wheat malt part of smurto's recipe. 

Well, it's a goer then. Just waiting on my Amarillo pellets from Ross at CraftBrewer. 

By the way butters, I ordered some Fuggles pellets and an S-04 yeast too, so I can try a good English Ale next. 

Oh and where do you find the IBU for tins on the Morgans website? The site appears very strange for me. Some parts of it overlap links and text. I've tried it on different computers too in case it was something in my display settings, but it still appears the same.. :huh:


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## Barramundi (17/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> I'm in Maryborough QLD. Using the wet towel to try and keep ferment temps low. Struggling to get it under 22-24 without it at the moment.
> 
> I've been looking for a 100 can cooler but can't find them! Fermenting fridge may well be a future addition. We just got rid of an old working fridge too. Maybe I could get it back...




give anaconda a go for the 100 can cooler, dunno if they still stock them but thats where i got mine, might even be worth a try askin guys on here that have upgraded to a fridge and have them sitting around ...


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## QIK86 (17/9/08)

Who/what is anaconda? (Other than a large snake which starred in a movie of the same name )


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## EK (17/9/08)

+1 for the 100 Can Cooler.

The only thing to watch our for is that when you replace you frozen bottles/bags of ice/freezer blocks, make sure that you mop up the condensation. This will help prevent any mould or anything like that.

Also, I can get good temperatures out of a 100 can cooler and a few 1.25L frozen bottles, so much so that I have put off any plans for a better cooling system for fermentation.

:icon_cheers: 
EK


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## EVOSTi (17/9/08)

fellow hachi driver qik86?


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## Barramundi (17/9/08)

anaconda is an outdoor/adventure store 


www.anaconda.com.au

i know theres a couple in queensland but unsure where but they do have a mail order arrangement ,,


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## QIK86 (17/9/08)

EVOSTi said:


> fellow hachi driver qik86?



By hachi you mean AE86? If so, then no, just another dirty old '86 model. 



EK said:


> +1 for the 100 Can Cooler.
> 
> The only thing to watch our for is that when you replace you frozen bottles/bags of ice/freezer blocks, make sure that you mop up the condensation. This will help prevent any mould or anything like that.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tip. Sounds like they're definitely the go. 



Barramundi said:


> anaconda is an outdoor/adventure store
> 
> 
> www.anaconda.com.au
> ...



Cheers Barra, I'll check out their website.


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## QIK86 (19/9/08)

Just realised I've got an old chest freezer sitting outside. Thinking I might just put the fermenter in there and rotate frozen bottles to keep the brew cool. Do you think this would this work ok? Should insulate even better than the 100 can cooler..


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## Tyred (19/9/08)

The old chest freezer should be fine. It may take a little bit of time to get it chilled depending on its size.


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## buttersd70 (19/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Just realised I've got an old chest freezer sitting outside. Thinking I might just put the fermenter in there and rotate frozen bottles to keep the brew cool. Do you think this would this work ok? Should insulate even better than the 100 can cooler..



100%, its a (near) perfect solution. If you add the bottles in the day before you brew, it will already be nice and cool by the time you put the fermenter in anyway. If its not cool enough, add more bottles...if it gets too cool, crack the lid for a few minutes. Great stuff. The insulation on freezers is excellent. Just think about how long it takes to defrost one if you don't open the lid.


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## buttersd70 (19/9/08)

QIK86 said:


> Ah.. I may have skimmed over the wheat malt part of smurto's recipe.
> 
> Well, it's a goer then. Just waiting on my Amarillo pellets from Ross at CraftBrewer.
> 
> ...



Missed this post, somehow. Qik, from the homepage, mouseover 'products' at the top and select which range. This gives the intro to the range. then click on the range again to the left of the description, this will bring up the products within the range. The IBU and colour are in the product descriptions.


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## QIK86 (22/9/08)

Well, I've decided this Brewcellar American Ale yeast is fairly ordinary (compared to the Fermentis US-05 I used last brew).

Put down Friday night. Pitched yeast (dry) at 27 degrees. Has been sitting at 22-23 since. This morning (Monday) before work I saw the first sign of life. A very thin krausen has formed over the brew and the water in the airlock has been pushed to one side, but is not yet bubbling away. (Comment on airlock activity solely for butters enjoyment )

My only concern now is that the smell out of the airlock and from the hydrometer sample were quite unpleasant.. Could it possibly be infected from sitting so long with no yeast activity?


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## buttersd70 (22/9/08)

possibly, but if your sanitation was good, probably not. Give it time to do its thing, see what its like post ferment. But out of interest, can you expand on what the smell was like?


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## QIK86 (22/9/08)

I'll have another good smell when I get home and get back to you, as I was still half asleep and running late for work. All I remember is it wasn't the pleasant malty/hoppy smell I was expecting.

I've got a spare Fermentis US-05 in the fridge if needed. Just wanted to use this one before it got too old. Should have trusted my insticts (and the experiences of people in the below thread) and tossed it..  

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=23585


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## buttersd70 (22/9/08)

:blink: 
Never having used this yeast, I had no idea the issues some guys have been having with it. From the look of that thread, it seems to be an issue with repackaging.
So for once I'm stuck, matey. I don't know if this can be salvaged.


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## QIK86 (23/9/08)

It's fermenting away now with almost an inch of krausen, so it might be ok. As for the smell, after having a few more good sniffs of the airlock it's not as unpleasant as I first thought, but just doesn't smell like anything else I've brewed. Do wheat kits give off a different smell to others while fermenting?

Another strange thing I've noticed is that there is no condensation under the lid. First time for that too.


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## buttersd70 (23/9/08)

wouldnt really worry about lack of condensation, thats caused as much by temp differences inside/outside the lid than by anything else, so if there isn't enough of a temp differential, it may not form.
As for wheats, to be honest I don't know, I don't brew them. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they did have a different smel, possibly tart? slightly sour? perhaps.

If it's going now, assume it will be OK untill after fermentation is done, and then have a taste/smell. If the smell gets less as ferment goes on, it may (should) go completely once bottled out and conditioned.


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## QIK86 (24/9/08)

I may have been a little hasty with my concern. It's fermenting away quite happily now and the smell is definitely improving. It's actually smelling quite nice now, but still a little different to my previous brews. Hopefully it is just due to the wheat. Time will tell anyway. I'll be dry hopping with more Amarillo pellets, so that should keep it heading in the right direction.

On a different note, butters, would you care to recommend a recipe for an English style ale for my next brew? I have some Fuggles pellets and S-04 yeast to use. Are IPA's a type of English ale? If so, I would like to steer it in this direction if possible.. What do you think?


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## buttersd70 (24/9/08)

Just had a thought on the smel....if it's like a wierd kind of fruit salad, that's probably the Amarillo. The stuff stinks. As its meant to.

Yea IPA's are english, high OG, heavily hopped, and more bitter than either of my ex wives. IPA's are not something I brew (I just find them way to bitter. Personal taste, thats all.)

So a bit hard for me to reccomend a recipe. Best Bitter, Session Bitter, and Milds, on the other hand....have a bit of a search in the recipe db, most of the guys on here are hopheads anyway  

But for an IPA, maybe a twocan? Possibly
2x coopers real ale
1 kg dme
23L
OG 1062 fg(approx) 1017

add the whole 1kg to 5l, boil fuggle 15min. Perhaps another 15g at flame out.
approx ibu (including tins) 55-60.
ferment at 18C with S04.

For a best bitter, and certainly for a mild, you would be wanting to do a steep or use a masterblend. If you want some help on a recipe, let me know, happy to help, but it will be a fairly untried and new one, cos I didn't even bother brewing to style till I went full extract (which was fairly early on). But I should be able to simplify some of my earlier ones.


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## Jamz (25/9/08)

I think i should point out that this procedure taken from the previous page for using bleach + vinegar is not only *INCORRECT* but downright *DANGEROUS!*



> "buy 2L of unscented, plain bleach. Homebrand is fine.
> buy 2L of white vinegar. Again, homebrand is fine, but it must be white vinegar, not malt or wine or anything else.
> In the bottom of the fermenter put 1.9L of the bleach. This amount is for a 30L fermenter, if yours is different size, its 62.5ml per Litre. Put in all your other brewing equipment.
> fill the fermenter almost to the top water, just regular tap temperature.
> ...



Firstly the required concentration for a microbicidal solution is 80ppm, having a solution thats twice as strong DOES NOT make it twice as effective. Using 1.9L of bleach would give you a dilution of 3166.67ppm, thats roughly 40 times what you should be using, and no, that DOES NOT mean its going to be 40 times as effective. What it does mean though is that it will produce *40 times as much poisonous gas* as the relatively safe recommended dilution of 80ppm. Seriously, if you've used this before, I'm surprised that you lived to tell the tale. 

So for reference, if you want to use the bleach/vinegar solution, adding 1.6ml per litre of water will give you the appropriate dilution. As always mix the bleach and vinegar into the water, never mix them together in concentrated form. And you don't need 20 minutes, this solution is effective in 30 seconds. And if you use a solution at 80ppm and do a good job of draining the fermenter afterwards, rinsing isn't necessary _(the concentration is going to be below the taste threshold by the time you're diluting the residual 5ml of 80ppm solution that stuck to the walls of the fermenter when you were draining it, with 23L of wort)_, but some people understandably feel more comfortable about giving it a rinse. 

I'm not against using bleach + vinegar, in fact I sanitise my fermenters with 8ml of bleach into 5L of water then add another 8ml of vinegar, then swirl it around and I haven't had a problem with this. But if you're going to do it, do it right. It can be downright dangerous if you do it wrong.


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## bouncingcastle (25/9/08)

Jamz said:


> I think i should point out that this procedure taken from the previous page for using bleach + vinegar is not only *INCORRECT* but downright *DANGEROUS!*



Sorry Butters... LOL

h34r:


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## QIK86 (8/10/08)

Just when you thought this thread had disappeared... 

I've decided for my next brew (after my current foray into Fresh Worts) I'm going to try that toucan IPA that butters mentioned.

Only instead of 1kg of LDME, I was thinking of using 1kg LLME + 200g of LDME. (As I have all of this already) Oh, and I've added an extra dry hop addition as it seems I'm becoming a bit of a hophead.. 

So, it will be:

2 x Coopers Real Ale cans
1kg Liquid Light Malt Extract
200g Light Dried Malt Extract
15g Fuggles @ 15mins
15g Fuggles @ flame out
15g Fuggles dry hopped in primary @ 4 days
Safale S-04 Dry Yeast

Any opinions on how you think it will turn out?

p.s. Can we please leave the bleach/vinegar solution talk there? Everyone can make up their own minds on it.


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