# First Marzen, looking for yeast feedback



## Kiwifirst (18/2/14)

Now that I have a brew fridge and fishtank pump I am keen to try my hand at brewing a German Lager style. Being a Pale Ale drinker I am usually brewing with the Safele S23 and so don't have much experience with the German style yeasts. I was looking for feedback on these two yeasts please.

White Labs WLP820 Oktoberfest/Marzen 
Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

I'll be using a mix of Munich, Pilsner and Vienna.

Cheers


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## Weizguy (18/2/14)

W2206 is a malty, clean lager yeast. Have not brewed with it a lot, but what I have brewed seems spot-on for style. German lager flavours, as you get in commercial beer. Which is what I assume you want. No experience with WLP820, but some with W2308 (Munich lager) and W2124 (Bohemian lager).

Plan a Vienna lager with W2206 soon. The wort is in the no-chill can, and I plan to use a 4 litre starter, and then pitch a Maibock on the cake


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## MCHammo (18/2/14)

I've not used WLP820, but I have used WLP838 (South German Lager), and was fantastic in a Vienna lager last year.

Apparently, 820 can be quite slow to start, but is great once it gets going. From White Labs, 820 and 838 would both seem to be good candidates for a Marzen. Wyeast I'm not familiar with - but I'm sure someone can help you out.


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## O-beer-wan-kenobi (18/2/14)

I have a Marzen/Oktoberfest in the fermenter using WY 2308 Munich Lager. This is a re pitch from a Munich Helles which turned out as a good lager.

I cant comment on the other strains mentioned above but I think I have read that the wyeast 2206 had higher placings for these styles in BJCP competitions in the US.


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## Snow (18/2/14)

I've brewed with both of those yeasts and prefer the Wyeast Octoberfest Blend over both of them. It has a better malt accentuation, good attenuation and is reasonably low in sulphur and diacetyl if you treat it nicely. Just make sure you do a decent starter (eg 3litres) with any of those yeasts and pitch at low temps(10-11c) with lots of aeration.

Cheers - Snow,.


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## Kiwifirst (18/2/14)

I was planning on a starter, 3L is much bigger than I would do normally. How many grams of extract per litre is ideal for a starter. Aeration is something else I will struggle with, I can give it a good shake, but I don't have any other for, of aeration, unless I use the fish pump to spray back into the wort.


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## going down a hill (19/2/14)

You want 100grams of dme per litre and I would shake as opposed to using the fish pump.


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## Weizguy (19/2/14)

going down a hill said:


> You want 100grams of dme per litre and I would shake as opposed to using the fish pump.


About 1.040 s.g. for your starter (unhopped) and I recently listened to a podcast with Dave Logsdon (of Wyeast) who advised that shaking (a carboy) for 4 minutes is better than aerating with a fishpump.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/2/14)

2308 all the way, very suited to a Marzen.
Mash relatively low approx 65C and it will still have a nice malt background.
Nev


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## Kiwifirst (19/2/14)

Thanks Guys.

That is great news about the shaking for a few minutes is good for aeration. 

I think that Grain and Grape stock the 2206 Bavarian, the 2308 Munich & the Octoberfest Blend 2. 

I guess since I haven't tried any of them in the past, they will all do the job and will be difficult to choose until I have tasted all three to compare.

3L starter. Wow! I am assuming that I am going to be running the starter at normal brew temps, say 10-11c, the last starter I did (read, the only one I have done) was a IPA and that was going nuts after 2 days which timed nicely with my brew day plans. Would a lager starter need more time? Should I be putting this on the go Thursday night for a Sat brew day? Or is that too soon?


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## Screwtop (19/2/14)

Snow said:


> I've brewed with both of those yeasts and prefer the Wyeast Octoberfest Blend over both of them. It has a better malt accentuation, good attenuation and is reasonably low in sulphur and diacetyl if you treat it nicely. Just make sure you do a decent starter (eg 3litres) with any of those yeasts and pitch at low temps(10-11c) with lots of aeration.
> 
> Cheers - Snow,.


I go along with Snow who's been brewing for a good while! However I have also had good results using 2308. 



Kiwifirst said:


> Thanks Guys.
> 
> That is great news about the shaking for a few minutes is good for aeration.
> 
> ...


Holy freholy! I would use a 6L starter in a 21L batch if fermenting at 10-11C. Pitch a 'BIG' active starter to a lager. 

Screwy


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## Kiwifirst (19/2/14)

Yikes, there was me quite happy with myself after just converting a 5L container into a yeast starter container.


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## JasonP (19/2/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> About 1.040 s.g. for your starter (unhopped) and I recently listened to a podcast with Dave Logsdon (of Wyeast) who advised that shaking (a carboy) for 4 minutes is better than aerating with a fishpump.


 Why unhopped? I usually mildly hop my starters. Gives it added bacterial protection



Kiwifirst said:


> Thanks Guys.
> 
> That is great news about the shaking for a few minutes is good for aeration.
> 
> ...


Most lager yeast growth is optimal around 22 degrees C, so make a starter around that temp. Then chill to ferment temp before pitching.


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## Kiwifirst (20/2/14)

Thanks Jason. That is good to know. I was going to run the starter in the fridge.

Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees. I went into the shed this morning trying to work out what use to make a bigger starter and my eye fell on three glass demijohns sitting on the shelf. That'll do


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## Kiwifirst (20/2/14)

I just looked on How to Brew and it says that you should have your starter at the same temp as you plan to brew so that it acclimates to that temp.


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## JasonP (20/2/14)

Kiwifirst said:


> I just looked on How to Brew and it says that you should have your starter at the same temp as you plan to brew so that it acclimates to that temp.


I usually have the yeast starter growing at around 20 and then cool down to fermentation temp for at least 24hrs before pitching to prevent shocking the yeast. Works for me and I don't see any reasons why it's not good practice.


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## Weizguy (20/2/14)

JasonP said:


> I usually have the yeast starter growing at around 20 and then cool down to fermentation temp for at least 24hrs before pitching to prevent shocking the yeast. Works for me and I don't see any reasons why it's not good practice.


My next lager yeast starter, I plan to chill to pitching temp, get the wort to pitching temp and decant the wort from the yeast culture and reactivate it with about 100ml of fresh wort to re-suspend the yeast.



JasonP said:


> Why unhopped? I usually mildly hop my starters. Gives it added bacterial protection
> 
> 
> Most lager yeast growth is optimal around 22 degrees C, so make a starter around that temp. Then chill to ferment temp before pitching.


The usual reason for unhopped wort is that we are making a yeast starter and not a beer. Yeast perform optimally in an unhopped medium. Again I refer you to the Basic Brewing radio - Dave Logsdon series of 3 interviews.


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## pimpsqueak (20/2/14)

Another +1 for 2308 here.
I split my pack and made 2 x 2L starters.(I only have a 2L flask). Then I chilled and decanted them, then pitched the combined yeastcakes. Turned out a cracker (after 3 months Lagering of course)


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## Kiwifirst (21/2/14)

Help!

I have had the Oktoberfest yeast in a starter at about 20c for two days and still no activity. I have shook, shake and rolled the the container about 10 times and nothing is happening. Anyone have any ideas how I can get this moving?


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## Screwtop (22/2/14)

1. If a pack of yeast containing sufficient cells to innoculate a 20L batch is pitched to 2L of wort.......... do you think it is going to multiply?????????

2. If a pack of yeast containing sufficient cells to innoculate a 20L batch is pitched to 2L of wort.......... how long do you think it will take to ferment out??????????????

Take a gravity reading and have a think!

Screwy


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## Kiwifirst (22/2/14)

Drama over. I shook it a few times. Shook it some more, then some more, wrapped it in a towel and went or bed. Activity this morning


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## Kiwifirst (22/2/14)

Screwtop said:


> 1. If a pack of yeast containing sufficient cells to innoculate a 20L batch is pitched to 2L of wort.......... do you think it is going to multiply?????????
> 
> 2. If a pack of yeast containing sufficient cells to innoculate a 20L batch is pitched to 2L of wort.......... how long do you think it will take to ferment out??????????????
> 
> ...


I have a 4l starter prepared.

So not being that experienced at making starters I'll answer your questions and perhaps you can tell me the fault in my thinking.

1. Is a smack pack going to multiply when tossed in a starter? Yes, I always assumed it would by consuming what ever extract I had in my starter.

2. How long? Maybe 2 days? Given that it would need some time to get going.


SG: 1.051 when I emailed this asking for help. 

Was the multiple use of question marks supposed to make me feel stupid?


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## going down a hill (23/2/14)

Kiwifirst said:


> Drama over. I shook it a few times. Shook it some more, then some more, wrapped it in a towel and went or bed. Activity this morning


Just make sure you taste and smell the starter before pitching the yeast. If it doesn't have a sweet malt flavour in there, or it is sour, ditch it. If it is good it still wont taste like beer because there's no hops in it. Just sweet and estery. Check out Mr Malty for yeast calculations / correct pitching rates.

Btw has anyone else noticed Yeast calc seems to have fallen off the internet. Breaks my heart to see such a good calculator slip away.


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## Screwtop (23/2/14)

Kiwifirst said:


> I have a 4l starter prepared.
> 
> So not being that experienced at making starters I'll answer your questions and perhaps you can tell me the fault in my thinking.
> 
> ...


No, multiple use of quotations is me being a cranky old prick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also use multiple exclamation marks.

Hmmmm...... 1.051 is up there for a starter. Is it from your Marzen?

Read up as much as you can re yeast, fermentation is the most important aspect of brewing. Very basically - yeast cells bud/multiply depending upon how much work there is to be done. Not much to be done when pitching a full smack pack to 4L so not much growth will occur. 

Are you trying to grow yeast or make a starter? A starter is a small active fermentation it should be pitched when 'active'.

Some let the wort ferment out, tip off the beer and pitch 'yeast slurry' this is not pitching 'a starter'

Pitching a small cell count to say 4L of wort will result in multiplication, after the wort has fermented out tip off the beer and you will have more yeast cells than you started with as 'yeast slurry'


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## Kiwifirst (23/2/14)

Thanks Mike, I am going yo pitch the whole starter in there and not run off. My 90 minute boil left me a bit short on volume so adding 4l brings me back up to where I want it to be.

In fact this has been a real tough brew. Out of my APA comfort zone, I have struggled and made some cock ups with this. I tried a rest step at 55c and didn't calculate or realise just how much I'd need in raising the temp to 66 for the second step. So I needed up with nearly all my sparse in the esky, then pulling it and reheating it to try to get the initial up to 66c. 

Then I forgot to pre chill water to try out my new fish pump, I had ice, but a couple of blocks that helped lower from 30 to 20, but by then the kids wanted a trip to the park and I'd been at it for hours, all a learning curve I suppose 

I have no idea what this Oktoberfest will come out line, but it had plenty of rests between 55 and 66.


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## Screwtop (23/2/14)

Kiwifirst said:


> Thanks Mike, I am going yo pitch the whole starter in there and not run off. My 90 minute boil left me a bit short on volume so adding 4l brings me back up to where I want it to be.
> 
> In fact this has been a real tough brew. Out of my APA comfort zone, I have struggled and made some cock ups with this. I tried a rest step at 55c and didn't calculate or realise just how much I'd need in raising the temp to 66 for the second step. So I needed up with nearly all my sparse in the esky, then pulling it and reheating it to try to get the initial up to 66c.
> 
> ...


Don't stress sometimes those brews are the greatest. Then try to replicate 

Screwy


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## Kiwifirst (23/2/14)

I bet I love it and then I'll have no idea how I made it. Still waiting patiently for the thing to chill enough to pitch. It is at 18 and the starter is at about 12. So I might wait till 16 and then let it start whilst cooling slowly to 12 to brew.


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