# White Rabbit: White Ale Recipe (first Partial Attempt)



## Impy (19/10/10)

Hi guys,

My first kit is bottled and I'm fairly confident it's going to be tasty (brewcraft asahi, smells and tastes good at the mo - just waiting to carb) 

I've recently been quite impressed with White Rabbits new White Ale and thought i'd have a go at a partial clone. I've had a scour for wit beer recipes and have put together this test recipe and would love some more experience brewers opinions or tips. (i'm getting the ingredients from Dave's Homebrew in North Sydney)

- 1.5kg Wheat LME
- 1.0kg Wheat DME
- 250g Oats (steep in grain bag @ ~70deg for 30min 2L water) 

- Sparge oats then bring to boil for hops additions.

- 28g Hallertau Hops (@ 60min in mini-mash) 
- 28g Saaz Hops (@ 10min in mini-mash)
- 24g Bitter orange peel (I can't find this stuff anywhere!)
- 24g Coriander seeds (lightly crushed)

- Belgium white beer yeast 

Since most recipes online are in US measurements I've converted the hops qtys to match. Is using all wheat LME and DME going to be too overpowering in the wheat department or is that ok for this wit beer style?

Also, how does my oats usage look? It seems to be a common theme in wit beer recipes. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going overboard on the qty.

Thanks!


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## Swinging Beef (19/10/10)

Hey, mate.
Witbier and hefeweisen is one of the main reasons I started brewing AG. It's just too hard to get the right colours and flavours from extracts in Australia.
The wheat extract you get here is 1/2 wheat and 1/2 pale malt, so quite dark.
Witbier and hef dont give you a lot of room to hide the extract twang behind yeast character or hop aroma either.

Having said all that...
TO my mind for the White Rabbit white ale, you are on the right track.
I dont detect any belgian wit yeast aroma when I drink it, though, but perhaps mine werent fresh.
Maybe skip on the oats, they might make life a little more complicated than it needs to be for this beer.
Orange peel can be bought dried from asian grocers and so can good corriander.
Crack the corriander and break up the orange peel to tiny bits.
Pop these in in the last 5 minutes of the boil only.
Your hop schedule looks good for this beer.


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## Dazza_devil (19/10/10)

Impy said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> My first kit is bottled and I'm fairly confident it's going to be tasty (brewcraft asahi, smells and tastes good at the mo - just waiting to carb)
> 
> ...



I'm new to partials and about to do my first in a couple of days but have done a fair amount of research on the matter recently.
Your recipe looks like an extract recipe with oats to me, as opposed to a partial recipe which would have some base malt grains substituted for the dried or liquid extract. I reckon the oats are gonna need some base malt in there and you will have to do a full 60 min mash to gain anything from them. I may be wrong but the recipes I have looked at in the past that had oats in them needed to be mashed with a base malt. Someone with a little more experience may be able to shed some more light on this for you.


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## Impy (20/10/10)

Swinging Beef said:


> Hey, mate.
> Witbier and hefeweisen is one of the main reasons I started brewing AG. It's just too hard to get the right colours and flavours from extracts in Australia.
> The wheat extract you get here is 1/2 wheat and 1/2 pale malt, so quite dark.
> Witbier and hef dont give you a lot of room to hide the extract twang behind yeast character or hop aroma either.
> ...



Thanks for the tips and info on where to get the orange peel.

A little more info on the hops, when I was looking through the white labs yeast I noticed the wit beer yeast WLP400 had fairly regular comments regarding a fruity notes and taste but I don't remember tasting or smelling that at all. That's why I settled for the WLP550 which was still appropriate for the white beer style, but seemed to follow more spicy / citrus notes and taste which is what I predominantly remember.


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## Impy (20/10/10)

Boagsy said:


> I'm new to partials and about to do my first in a couple of days but have done a fair amount of research on the matter recently.
> Your recipe looks like an extract recipe with oats to me, as opposed to a partial recipe which would have some base malt grains substituted for the dried or liquid extract. I reckon the oats are gonna need some base malt in there and you will have to do a full 60 min mash to gain anything from them. I may be wrong but the recipes I have looked at in the past that had oats in them needed to be mashed with a base malt. Someone with a little more experience may be able to shed some more light on this for you.



Yeah i'll put some malt for the steeping (i'm following the mini-mash instructions from the home brewing book I got with my Brewcraft Delux kit)


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## Swinging Beef (20/10/10)

I got no classic witbier aromas from the White Rabbit I had.
So I went back to the Dark Ale... Mmmm... yummy.
I suspect, from my own megre pallet, that it is something clean like US05 fermented a wee bit warmer.
I found this beer to be pleasant and white but not a clsssic witbier

As Boagsey said, this isnt reeally a 'partial' recipe.
Witbier doesnt make a lot of sense to make a parital from, as usually, the partial component is specialty grains, steeped to provide flavour, body and aroma.
Witbier tend to have no spec grains, and is simply 50/50 wheat and pils, both of which need to be mashed/converted.

Save your partial brew for your next one.


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## mkstalen (20/10/10)

The White Rabbit White Ale I had at the beer festival on Sunday tasted like it was flavour driven mostly with Galaxy Hops. I think they even had a bowl of dried Galaxy Hop bines at their stand.

Just my 2c.

(I did kill a few brain cells though, so i could be mistaken with another stand & beer...)


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## Aus_Rider_22 (20/10/10)

stienberg said:


> The White Rabbit White Ale I had at the beer festival on Sunday tasted like it was flavour driven mostly with Galaxy Hops. I think they even had a bowl of dried Galaxy Hop bines at their stand.
> 
> Just my 2c.
> 
> (I did kill a few brain cells though, so i could be mistaken with another stand & beer...)



Interesting you say that. I was very underwhelmed when I tried the White Ale. I loved the dark ale and was looking forward to the sixer of white ale. I couldn't taste much hoppiness and had a weird twang to it in my opinion. Unless I got a dud 6 pack I was very disappointed with it. I would prefer to drink a simple POR AG of my own over the white ale that I tasted. :unsure: 

You didn't happen to have this beer mixed up with Stone and Wood Draught Ale did you? It has a nice and refreshing hit of Galaxy.


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## haysie (20/10/10)

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Interesting you say that. I was very underwhelmed when I tried the White Ale. I loved the dark ale and was looking forward to the sixer of white ale. I couldn't taste much hoppiness and had a weird twang to it in my opinion. Unless I got a dud 6 pack I was very disappointed with it. I would prefer to drink a simple POR AG of my own over the white ale that I tasted. :unsure:
> 
> You didn't happen to have this beer mixed up with Stone and Wood Draught Ale did you? It has a nice and refreshing hit of Galaxy.




I agree, a little DULL but it does taste what they claim it to be, a belgian type ale.
Not sure why micros go for these cloudy shitty presenting beers? Cant they brew bright beers that appease the mob rather than brewing to a clique.
My crownie swilling mate turned his nose up at it....... presentation alone, didnt blame him, looks like something Uncle Arthur brewed up in the shed.
It didnt prompt me to ever think about buying it again.... V/Average.


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## bconnery (20/10/10)

haysie said:


> I agree, a little DULL but it does taste what they claim it to be, a belgian type ale.
> Not sure why micros go for these cloudy shitty presenting beers? Cant they brew bright beers that appease the mob rather than brewing to a clique.
> My crownie swilling mate turned his nose up at it....... presentation alone, didnt blame him, looks like something Uncle Arthur brewed up in the shed.
> It didnt prompt me to ever think about buying it again.... V/Average.


I mean fancy a wit beer, being traditionally hazy and not at all bright and all, being brewed to be that way. 


OP, as other's have said it is difficult to get a wit beer on extract alone. 
If you can do a partial mash, go for some pilsner malt and raw wheat of some form (available from any good HBS) in addition to your extract. It will be darker than a wit but a decent stab can be made. 
A wit yeast would still be the best choice I think. 

White Rabbit White is primed with honey too, just for something different. 

From my readings or reviews of this beer people have had different experiences with quality and freshness. I've never had a bad bottle or glass of it, but others seemed to have, even some who've enjoyed it one 6 pack and then found it lacking another.


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## haysie (20/10/10)

bconnery said:


> I mean fancy a wit beer, being traditionally hazy and not at all bright and all, being brewed to be that way.



DULL, and hazy. Yeah like a witbier if your into style guidelines and all that nonsense as I would think the majority of beer drinkers are not.
Thx for the clarification of a wit being hazy....... pardon the pun..

Wouldnt be a hard beer to make, low attentuation, low ibus, fair amount adjunct/sugar, very low floc yeast. Not sure if unmalted is required, I would expect some noticable tartness but I didnt get it, yeast dominated beer.


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## mkstalen (21/10/10)

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> You didn't happen to have this beer mixed up with Stone and Wood Draught Ale did you? It has a nice and refreshing hit of Galaxy.



Possible. I think the two stands were close to each other. The afternoon did end a little blurry.


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## Kai (21/10/10)

White Rabbit White does not use a belgian witbier yeast, it's fermented with the same English ale strain as the dark ale is.


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## manticle (21/10/10)

I missed tasting this at the showcase last night. Had intended to because it was on tap (unless I didn't look close enough and it was only the dark on tap?)

I've only tried it bottled. I like it - it's not wow in your face beer but subtle and that's not always a bad thing. I think there's a difference between subtle and bland.

As to the recipe - the oats really stand out. What are the instructions you have? What kind of oats are you intending to use?

for yeast, I'd just culture some from the bottles of a six pack you've drunk.


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## Josh (22/10/10)

haysie said:


> very low floc yeast.



Witbier gets its haze from proteins in unmalted wheat, not low floccing yeast.


If you can't find bitter orange peel, you can make a Wit using zest of sweet oranges. I make a Wit not close to White Rabbit White. I like an almost spritzy zest character in my Wits. I use about 300g of orange, lemon, lime and grapefruit zest in a 20-23L batch.

For your clone, you could try some chamomile in your spice additions also. A lot of commercial Witbiers us chamomile. Most of the best homebrewed versions I've tried have had chamomile in them. Not sure if this would steer you closer or further from a WRWA clone though.


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## haysie (22/10/10)

Josh said:


> Witbier gets its haze from proteins in unmalted wheat, not low floccing yeast.
> 
> 
> 
> For your clone, you could try some chamomile in your spice additions also. A lot of commercial Witbiers us chamomile.




A lot of Witbiers taste like listerine from too much chamomile or cori etc. Tread with caution.

Low floc yeast doesnt enhance haze huh? Disagree with your yeast theory, nonetheless unmalted wheat will clear over time after the proteins have dropped. Kristal clear. 

I now know White rabbit Ale uses English yeast <_< , Wits are hazy and unmalted wheat is a requirement. The things you learn on AHB B) .

Is it worth $8 a glass? No way No................. Is it worth $20 a sixer? No.
You can drink real Belgian beer at the same prices.

edit> Here in Melbourne you can.


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## Josh (22/10/10)

haysie said:


> A lot of Witbiers taste like listerine from too much chamomile or cori etc. Tread with caution.
> 
> Low floc yeast doesnt enhance haze huh? Disagree with your yeast theory, nonetheless unmalted wheat will clear over time after the proteins have dropped. Kristal clear.
> 
> I now know White rabbit Ale uses English yeast <_< , Wits are hazy and unmalted wheat is a requirement. The things you learn on AHB B) .



I know, right?


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## Kai (22/10/10)

Josh said:


> Witbier gets its haze from proteins in unmalted wheat, not low floccing yeast.
> 
> 
> If you can't find bitter orange peel, you can make a Wit using zest of sweet oranges. I make a Wit not close to White Rabbit White. I like an almost spritzy zest character in my Wits. I use about 300g of orange, lemon, lime and grapefruit zest in a 20-23L batch.



Another option, it might sound 'lower class' but works well from personal experience, is Angas Park mixed peel. Adds some great zesty flavours, 5% lemon doesn't hurt and readily available.


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## Kai (22/10/10)

haysie said:


> A lot of Witbiers taste like listerine from too much chamomile or cori etc. Tread with caution.
> 
> Low floc yeast doesnt enhance haze huh? Disagree with your yeast theory, nonetheless unmalted wheat will clear over time after the proteins have dropped. Kristal clear.
> 
> ...



It should be available for less than $20 a sixer and definitely for less than $8 a glass. 8$ a pint maybe, that's acceptable.

Also worth pointing out that the beer is not specifically meant to be a Belgian beer!


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## Kai (22/10/10)

I call it White Rabbit White Ale.


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## haysie (22/10/10)

Its fair to say, the brewer or even the hanger on........... can bang on about a product, how different it is yada yada, then get all uptight and respond on every clone thread available. Yet never offering any real substance behind the post`s, a holy grail of witbier ffs. how boring.
White Rabbit is new, its expensive and doesnt appeal outside a clique niche audience IMO. Its in lots of pubs/motels and only time will tell if it really sells. 
My suspicions are this beer is marketed very well compared to some other Aussie micro`s, has a huge financial backing. YES the brewery is way more impressive than the beer. 
A brewery that doesnt, cant,wont make a bright beer aint worth their 2 bob.


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## Josh (22/10/10)

haysie said:


> A brewery that doesnt, cant,wont make a bright beer aint worth their 2 bob.



I seriously thought earlier in this thread you were just taking the piss. But now I know you are.


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## Impy (25/10/10)

manticle said:


> I missed tasting this at the showcase last night. Had intended to because it was on tap (unless I didn't look close enough and it was only the dark on tap?)
> 
> I've only tried it bottled. I like it - it's not wow in your face beer but subtle and that's not always a bad thing. I think there's a difference between subtle and bland.
> 
> ...



From the research I did the oats seemed to be a prominent theme in white beer recipes. Not a huge qty, but just enough to give it a smooth mouth feel and a little better head retention. 

I just used rolled oats which seemed to be what was recommended. The mini mash worked really well, it was foaming up nicely when I turned the heat up for the hops schedule (And I worked out I need a bigger pot).

I have tried culturing the yeast from the bottles but all my attempts have been unsuccessful. 

One thing I think I would change is to use a tin of pilsner malt or something lighter. I see now what people were talking about when they said the wheat malts we get here are darker due to the wheat/barley combination. 

Other than that I think it worked out pretty well, the smell was absolutely great when it went into the fermenter (very citrus and slight peppery). I put it in last Wednesday night (OG: 1.050) and the citrus aroma is settling out a bit now. I thought since it was an ale it would be fermenting like crazy but it's been going fairly steady from about 18hrs after closing the lid.


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## Impy (25/10/10)

Josh said:


> Witbier gets its haze from proteins in unmalted wheat, not low floccing yeast.
> 
> 
> If you can't find bitter orange peel, you can make a Wit using zest of sweet oranges. I make a Wit not close to White Rabbit White. I like an almost spritzy zest character in my Wits. I use about 300g of orange, lemon, lime and grapefruit zest in a 20-23L batch.
> ...



Jebus! 300g? That would be quite spritzy! 

I couldn't find "bitter orange peel" in the dried pre-packaged form anywhere so I just used a zest of an orange (28g-ish total) and I tried peeling a little deeper than recommended for zesting for cooking so I got some more of the white pith which apparently gives it a bit more of a bitter kick. The The lightly crushed coriander seeds I added gave it an amazing aroma in the mini-mash, it'll be interesting to see if those peppery flavours develop during the ferment.


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## Impy (1/11/10)

Here's an update:

The fermenter has slowed right down and I think it'll be ready to take a gravity reading in the next couple of days. It's got one hell of a krausen layer on top (I guess the oats helped with that) Just to confirm.. I should just leave the krausen alone shouldn't I? 

I don't have a secondary to rack to so i'll be bottling right from the primary. I'm guessing that since the white beer style is cloudy that racking to a secondary is a redundant step?

Thanks guys, this forum has been a massive help!


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## Dazza_devil (1/11/10)

Impy said:


> I'm guessing that since the white beer style is cloudy that racking to a secondary is a redundant step?



There are numerous reasons why people rack to secondary, I personally have only been doing it for bulk priming which I can highly recommend.


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## Impy (15/11/10)

Hi guys, quick question. 

I just bottled this brew on Saturday. It's been sitting on 1.010 (from 1.050) for about 5 days so I'm sure it was finished. I'm using the plastic beer bottles from brewcraft and primed the bottles with carb-drops (2 per 750ml) 

Now my first batch (asahi clone) hasn't carbed up very well and has a distinct Acetaldehyde taste (sour apple) which is slowly dying down but hasn't carbed up really, so i don't really have experience with carbonation in plastic bottles.

I noticed that 24hrs after priming and bottling the white beer, the bottles are all rock hard. Is this normal? Am I heading towards bottle bombs? and should I let some gas out of the bottles (I can unscrew the lids till gas comes out but doesn't break the seal around the lid)


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## Impy (17/11/10)

Well.. I let the bottles go and they seem to be carbing up super fast!! 

I've tried a couple of bottles already and they are really nice.. The recipe on the day was ever so slightly different to my OP, but overall I think I absolutely nailed this "white rabbit: white ale clone" attempt. 

As far as I can tell, without a side by side comparison.. I think the taste is spot on! YUM!!


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## Yob (17/11/10)

Impy said:


> Hi guys, quick question.
> 
> I'm using the plastic beer bottles from brewcraft and primed the bottles with carb-drops (2 per 750ml)
> 
> I noticed that 24hrs after priming and bottling the white beer, the bottles are all rock hard. Is this normal? Am I heading towards bottle bombs? and should I let some gas out of the bottles (I can unscrew the lids till gas comes out but doesn't break the seal around the lid)



you shouldnt get bombs with PET especially with a 1008 reading (what yeast did you use?), 

Leave at least 2 weeks and then check, if its carbed too much for your tastes then you may want to let a little out... alot of people find that 2 drops is VERY carbed but for myself, I dont worry as I usually decant a bottle to a Jug, then to the glass, by the time all this transferring has happened I quite like the level of Carbing...

good luck and hope it comes out awesome for you

:icon_cheers:


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## Impy (17/11/10)

iamozziyob said:


> you shouldnt get bombs with PET especially with a 1008 reading (what yeast did you use?),
> 
> Leave at least 2 weeks and then check, if its carbed too much for your tastes then you may want to let a little out... alot of people find that 2 drops is VERY carbed but for myself, I dont worry as I usually decant a bottle to a Jug, then to the glass, by the time all this transferring has happened I quite like the level of Carbing...
> 
> ...



I used a Belgian Ale Yeast WLP550 for the peppery/citrus character it has (seems to have worked too!). 

If they carb up too much I might see about bulk priming for my next batch.


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## db_dave (1/8/14)

Sorry to rehash this topic - how did the beer turn out after a bit of aging?
what was your final recipe? I have a mate who can't get enough white rabbit white ale and we've been trying to work a recipe out.


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## brzt6060 (1/8/14)

I might have to give white rabbit another chance, I tired it once about two years ago at the Trustee in Perth. I had one sip of my pint and ordered another beer. Tasted like off deli meat and tomato sauce...


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## Three Sheets (31/12/14)

White Rabbit White Ale is at the opposite end of my taste spectrum. Terrible really, but that's what makes beer making so much fun. I can make what 's nice for me!


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