# Drinking my first saison...



## Adr_0 (30/10/14)

Saison Dupont. Wow, amazing beer.

Looks great, actually lighter than I thought - I was expecting glowing orange but it's a real straw colour.
Smells floral, citrusy, bit of banana and a little musty.
Taste is great, with a complex bitterness and bit of citrus and banana carry over. Bit spicy/peppery too which is almost a puckering pepperness, and super dry with bitterness and funk that lasts nicely.

Wow, what a beer... I actually expected a bit more fruit in the flavour, but it's dominated by a dry, peppery bitterness. Still, an amazing beer and I can see why people brew them. Does more fruit come through in the homebrewed styles, or is it always just a layer behind the dry, bitter, peppery funk?

I also picked up a couple of bottles of Bocq Saison, 1858 or something. Anyone tried these beers, or other saisons to recommend?


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## hoppy2B (30/10/14)

Interesting comments. Saison Dupont is supposedly aged warm. From my experience this speeds up the aging.

Where did you buy this beer and does the bottle contain yeast? Big bottle or little bottle? 

I've brewed with the Belle Saison yeast but have never tried the commercial stuff, wouldn't mind giving it a go. Belle Saison is very dry and phenolic when fresh.


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## manticle (30/10/14)

La sirene do a good one and I always enjoyed the one from temple too. 
Dupont is the top of the tree though and they have a range of others - biologique is good as are any others from brasserie dupont. 
If you enjoy saison dupont and also like duvel, try a trois monts (biere de garde) which sits somewhere in between the two.


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## Adr_0 (30/10/14)

Got it from www.internationalbeershop.com.au. Not sure where they are, but their shipping is essentially "fill a carton for $32" or so and they will ship. The website is a bit weird: you place your order without paying, then they call you in the next day or two and confirm they have the beers, and grab your CC details. And you search by clicking the arrow in the middle of the page... bit hard to find. But, works rather well. Obviously an order is a little pricey if you buy a carton of Belgians... :blink:




The bottles are 330mL, and yeast in the bottle - but just a tiny bit. I would say they have centrifuged and re-seeded with just the right amount. Very high carbonation, mid 3's-4 (volumes) I would say.

Awesome, thanks Manticle, I will check those out. Very big fan of Duvel as you probably knew already.


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## hoppy2B (30/10/14)

Thanks Adr_0

Dan Murphy has 3 Saisons, and St-Feuillien, the one that took out the world's best Saison in '09 an '10, seems to be unavailable. :unsure:


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## Tex083 (30/10/14)

Saison Dupont is an amazing beer - I believe they use a wyeast yeast but could be wrong.
La Sirene is a cracking saison, one of my Fav's. Bridge Road do a good one.
7 Cent did a 1 off 100% Peated malt Saison was a complex MF and delicious.

I have made a couple and found Wyeast French saison to be my fav. You get a bit more funk the hotter you ferment it, I had mine on a heat pad on 100% was a fast ferment and had good flavour. Mine have been a bit dark and not a crisp, I will add some Dex to the boil to dry out the finish.


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## Charst (30/10/14)

Bocq Saison, 1858 won a Gold Medal at the '13 AIBA. Lovely Refreshing Saison, quite a strong citrusy coriander note.

You might also find Silly Saison, its a belgian saison but I've always found it to finish way too sweet.


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## pk.sax (30/10/14)

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/739/58235/

De dottignies saison, very nice. That and Dupont.
prickly moses had a nice saison too.


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## manticle (30/10/14)

Silly saison I find way off the mark.


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## philmud (30/10/14)

OP asked if home brewed sauson is fruitier than DuPont and I thought d say I have found mine to be. I've primarily used WY3711 which I gather is not the DuPont strain. I've had some excellent stone fruit flavours in my saisons, & I suggest fermenting them warm.


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## mje1980 (30/10/14)

I have a DuPont inspired saison in champagne bottles at the moment. Mashed low and long, upped the Ibus and added gypsum as I wanted it super dry. Used 3724. It's dry and fruity but I'd like to get it even drier. I've got a similar one, with the farmhouse ale yeast ( non funky one ) that seems to be less dry and more fruity. Hope that helps. DuPont is awesome. I like the biologique as well. Love to know how they get them so dry. Mine are 100% pils but I might try adding dextrose to my next one, though it might not be "authentic"


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## anthonyUK (31/10/14)

Candi sugar I'd guess would be OK especially in a 'style' that is difficult to categorise.
I use a homemade medium-dark candi in mine.


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## BrosysBrews (31/10/14)

If your looking for a cracker to try angle of zest from edge and Stillwater brewing is amazing, don't think it is bottled but can use now tapped to find it


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## peas_and_corn (31/10/14)

Beard and Brau do a great saison called Bon Chiens, I recommend you check it out.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (31/10/14)

Only ever had DuPont and loved it, got a Bridge Rd. Saison in fridge as we speak, as well as their Bier De Garde. Might have to have them this weekend!!!

I've got a vial of Sirene's Saison yeast, can't wait to grow it for one of my own soon 

Has anyone had a crack at a "new world Saison"? Or do you think the hoppyness would compete too much with the yeast funk?


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## philmud (31/10/14)

I did a saison with Nelson to bitter and Summer late in the boil. Worked beautifully! I find summer a fairly low key, but fruity hop that doesn't dominate, so I recommend it for the style. 8 wired do a Nelson saison if you're curious about a commercial version.


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## mosto (31/10/14)

I've never had a Saison. Pretty much my local Dan's is my only source for anything vaguely different. I have looked for Saisons there but haven't found any yet. I decided I would brew a classic style Saison using the BJCP guidelines as my guide. I used the Danstar Belle Saison yeast, and it finished off at 1.002!!! I've heard you can't have a Saison too dry, so I've got high hopes for this one even though I don't really know what to expect. I've got it cc'ing at the moment and will keg it this weekend. Looking forward to trying in a week or so.


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## Yeastfridge (31/10/14)

I've late hopped a couple of saisons and really enjoyed fruity/citrusy hops pairing with the Wyeast 3711 yeast. To answer the OPs question, I have found 3711 to give a bit of really nice light pear esters after a bit of ageing. I usually do 1/3 Munich, 1/3 wheat and 1/3 pils or pale and think Munich helps with a bit of perceived fruitiness


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## indica86 (31/10/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Has anyone had a crack at a "new world Saison"? Or do you think the hoppyness would compete too much with the yeast funk?


I do regularly. Currently have a Rye Saison late hopped with some US hops and it is very nice, although Belle Saison does tend to impart a very distinctive funk on beer.
Next will be one with repitched Saison Blend - yeast bay - which sampling the first I made with that has much more subtle yeast characteristics.


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## Adr_0 (1/11/14)

Nice, thanks for the feedback guys.

I was looking at something like 85% Belgian pils, 15% Munich II. To be honest, I didn't taste any Munich or Wheat in the DuPont... but I guess that doesn't mean it won't be a delicious saison if it has wheat/munich.

If 3724 stalls, have brewers considered making the sugar addition at this point instead of at the beginning?


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## mje1980 (1/11/14)

I don't, I just warm it up and wait. I've tried wyeast 3725 beire de garde, the wyeast farmhouse ale, wyeast 3711, and belle saison, and while the Belgian saison takes a long time I totally rate it. The others have made great beers, for my preference I like the 3724. 


I believe dupont is 100% dingemans pils and a long low rising mash, from 40 something to mash out over 2 hours. I'm going to try one with a bit if dextrose, but I'm only going to use 10% on a 1.045 saison so I'll just add it in the kettle. You could add it when it stalls though, it might help it kick back off. 

Add the Munich, but it's such a yeast driven style it won't make much difference I believe. I've added spelt to a few, and even used Maris otter and struggled to pick up the flavour over the yeast character.


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## tazman1967 (1/11/14)

I have a 8 Wired Saison Savin clone in the fermenter atm, I got all the details off their website http://8wired.co.nz/~oowired/our-brews/saison-sauvin-0. 
Smells pretty good in the fermenter.
As for an American style saison, I think that it is best to stay away from the "grassy" hops, they clash with the saison esters imho.
I have used.. Centennial, Citra, Chinook, Mosaic, Belma, these are just some of my faves..
Experiment, and see how you go..


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## pk.sax (1/11/14)

Agree 110% with mje.

It you want saison saison, just pils malt a low dose of styrian goldings and 3724 does a beautiful job. Decoction mashing can help it really dry out to the 1.002 ish range its fabled for. Or just tip in a kilo of sugar in the boil and boil hard.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/11/14)

practicalfool said:


> Agree 110% with mje.
> 
> It you want saison saison, just pils malt a low dose of styrian goldings and 3724 does a beautiful job. Decoction mashing can help it really dry out to the 1.002 ish range its fabled for. Or just tip in a kilo of sugar in the boil and boil hard.


Would an appropriately stepped mash achieve same results without the darkening achieved from decoction? As the caramelised flavour from decoction may not be desired?

I double batch now and don't really want to double batch a saison, but to ensure getting max out of a brew day, could a simple pils grist with Styrian be left as one cube for a standard Saison, then the second cube cube hopped as a pale ale/quaffer? Haven't used Styrian before so unsure if used in small quantities how much clash of flavours would be expected if say I cube hopped with citra for the pale ale in large quantities?


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## mje1980 (6/11/14)

Step mash will be fine. Make sure you favour the low 60's rest for attenuation. That'd work well I think. If you were fancy you could separately steep some med crystal ( just a small amount, 100g or so ) then add that to your pale ale cube ( before filling ) for a landlord type dry hoppy pale.


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## Tahoose (6/11/14)

I am about to do just this;

Simple grist 88 %pils 12% Wheat

65 ltr batch
No kettle additions

cube 1 - cube hoped with galaxy & citra for 23 IBU's
Cube 2 - 20ltrs from kettle + 5 litres from separate mini boil. Mini boil to 30 IBU for saison.
Small Cube- remainder of wort cube hopped with Amarillo, this will get mango extract at some point.


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## kaiserben (7/11/14)

Below is a little info that some people might find useful. 

Michael Jackson wrote this when visiting the Dupont brewery (it seems there are a few typos), 

With a matter-of-factness that matched his farmer-like appearance and gait, M. Rosier answered my question about his procedures. Each question was answered, but without much elaboration.
He told me that he used only pale malt in Saison Dupont, that his water was hard, and that the hops were mainly Kent Goldings, with some Hallertaus. He made two additions in the kettle, but no longer dry-hopped. When I first tasted these beers, about 15 years ago, I thought they had even more character, and perhaps that was why.
M. Rosier said that, after primary fermentation, there was a week or two of warm-conditioning in a metal tank. This was followed by centrifuging, re-yea sting (with a different culture), priming, and a good
fortnight of maturation in bottle.

He felt that his beers were best at between three and eight weeks after leaving the brewery, but said some customers preferred them at six months.

Some tasting notes of a few saisons also included in the full article. 

Source: http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000017.html


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## Adr_0 (7/11/14)

Cool.

Drinking the Bocq now. Similar colour, but definitely some wheat malt in this - in the appearance, smell and flavour. Very slightly darker, just bordering on orange but still pale/straw coloured. Smell is almost like a Hoegaarden with orange, lemon, cloves and some wheat. The taste is a lot more subdued and not as dry as the Dupont. It has a very feint funk and balanced bitterness and a nice citrus flavour. This has a lot of Hoegaarden character, with a lot of citrus/wheat flavour and a moderate (not dry) lemon finish with nice hops and a subtle spiciness. Very drinkable.

The Dupont is very assertive, complex, dry and peppery while the Bocq is closer to a Hoegaarden but still with nice lemon, spice and bitterness.

Cool. Saison d'like I do. 

EDIT: After a few more sips, the Bocq does have a little funk in the aftertaste. Very drinkable.


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## anthonyUK (7/11/14)

I had Fantome Printemps Saison last weekend 
After the initial lemon freshness there is a smoothness and lightness that is pretty amazing in an 8% beer.
Generally though I found it pretty un-Saison-like but an enjoyable beer nontheless albeit one that cost £8 :huh:


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## DJ_L3ThAL (13/11/14)

Tahoose said:


> I am about to do just this;
> 
> Simple grist 88 %pils 12% Wheat
> 
> ...


Why the 12% wheat? Is that to find a nice medium malt body land between a saison and a pale ale? Would 100% pils result in not enough body for the pale? Have you tried 12% before for a saison and pale or guestimating?



mje1980 said:


> Step mash will be fine. Make sure you favour the low 60's rest for attenuation. That'd work well I think. If you were fancy you could separately steep some med crystal ( just a small amount, 100g or so ) then add that to your pale ale cube ( before filling ) for a landlord type dry hoppy pale.


I've used the Budvar stepped profile twice now first was a budvar lager (still waiting in cube) and second a chestnut pilsner which got down from 1.052 to 1.006 with Nottingham (attempting faux lager for a house beer I can brew quick).

Budvar step profile is [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] with a 15 mashout at 78C, so it seems that is a decent profile for a very fermentable wort. Do you think sticking with what I know for this saison/pale ale double batch would be ideal with that Budvar temp step profile, or should the middle rest be a couple degrees higher? I figure the Saison yeast should munch down a bit further and I could use WLP001 or US05 for the pale ale which may not get down as far and if so next time try the med. crystal steeped into cube?


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## mje1980 (13/11/14)

That'd work fine for a saison I think


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## DJ_L3ThAL (13/11/14)

How about more wheat? My typical pale is 50:50 pale wheat, could do 50:50 pils/wheat temp stepped or would the wheat stick out in the saison in an inappropriate way?


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## manticle (13/11/14)

Wheat is fine in a saison. Can't remember my old grist but it wasn't 50:50. Maybe 75 pils:25 wheat? Anyway I think it's something you could play with. The hero is the yeast.


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## manticle (13/11/14)

This is mine: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1513-saison/

Lower alcohol refresher, bit more like a traditional/historical saison. Could easily be scaled up to make a stronger version. Will probably try without biscuit malt this year.


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## verysupple (13/11/14)

Adr_0 said:


> I also picked up a couple of bottles of Bocq Saison, 1858 or something. Anyone tried these beers, or other saisons to recommend?


I'm a little late to the scene here, but I had a Bocq recently and enjoyed it. It's very different to the Dupont. After the first whiff and taste I thought, "Wow, I know that smell/taste from somewhere else." It took a minute or two but then it hit me. It's like a way over the top phenolic Hoegaarden wit. Kind of like if you did everything you could to boost the esters and phenolics from Wy3944.


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## Tahoose (13/11/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Why the 12% wheat? Is that to find a nice medium malt body land between a saison and a pale ale? Would 100% pils result in not enough body for the pale? Have you tried 12% before for a saison and pale or guestimating?


 A little of topic but the grain bill was for the mountain goat steam ale clone and after seeing a 90/10 pils/wheat recommended for a saison, I figured I could do multiple brews from the same batch.

An idea for the saison/pale brew, bitter with east kent goldings,

saison cube - cube hop with goldings or saaz
pale - cube hop with galaxy & cascade for 35ibu (calculate as 20 mins) steep 300g medium crystal and add when pitching. Dry hop if you wish. Should get you something leaning towards a LCPA.


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## drunken_snail (7/12/14)

The yeast is the hero here, i use the danstar belle saison yeast it has been great. The belle saison yeast is a great convertor of sugar and will go nice and dry.
The 3 saisons i have made have been well recieved. 
Yeast : Belle Saison dry Yeast
Hops: Hallertau 4.8% 70g 60 min and 30g 0 min.

Adj: Sugar 1 KG 15 min
Extract: DME 2kg 60 min + Wheat DME 1kg 15 min

Grain: None all extract.

Carbonation: 3CO2

OG 1.068 to FG 1.004

Fermentation temp/time
start 22C
Ramp by 2C for 8 days
28C for 6 days drop to 17C while i was at work
then bottled 2 weeks later when i got back.

tasting notes - soft bready malts, moderate hop bitterness, prominent fruity esters of banana n pear, spicey peppery phenols.

If you are from western australia you may have heard of the backyard to bottle comp run by gage roads. this was the winner and gage will make a modified version of this next year. as a once off.

There are alot of saisons to try, it is good, most of my purchases lately have been saisons.

Dupont series bon voeux nice, la sierne series i like the normal n the super, stillwater, fantome biere artisanale sur lie was nice, bocq(very nice), 8 wired i didnt like as much, thunderhead road saison was great, Little creatures saison is great, James squire saison(perth) not so good. Exit saison was great, St feuillien was a good one. emelisse was good. Saison rue was a good one made with rye. Mornington, bridgeroad, sixpoint i have had but dont really remember. and Silly Saison isnt a saison. Thats all i remember sure there were others i have tried. 

I have the farmhouse ales book and i will sometime in the future will try to make a biere de garde. Havnt been able to try many commercial versions. Jenlain werent good(but will have to try again when i find it) stillwater was good, 3 monts very nice. Bridge road was good


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## mje1980 (7/12/14)

Use 3725 for your beire de garde. It's a Great yeast IMHO


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## Adr_0 (8/12/14)

Well I made one, a little while ago. Just did all malt to 1041, 65°C mash temp and pitched a fairly healthy 3724. Got down to 1020 in a few days and then threw in 400g of clear candi syrup. It didn't re-krausen, but then got down to 1010 when I tasted it a few days ago, so I would say it's getting along... will see in a week or two though I guess.

It started at 18, I let it gently creep to 22 over a couple of days and then threw it out into the Gladstone weather... under the house anyway.

Wow, what a yeast. I did a 60, 30, 15 hop with Czech saaz and Styrian Goldings. I also added 0.75g/L of fresh orange peel (half of what another recipe suggested). Taste is amazing but obviously hard to tell as it will get dry and sharp at FG. Planning to bottle in some DuPont bottles, 750mL Belgian bottles (corked or tirage cap - haven't decided yet) and do a few Xmas gifts... all to myself of course. And a few to some old brewing mates....

3724 I have heard some bad things about (stalling) but so far I can vouch for adding sugar after a couple of days of high krausen as it has 81% attenuated after 7-8 days.


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## drtomc (1/1/15)

Saison Dupont is one of my favourite beers. As others have said, it's all about the yeast. It is my most brewed style, and I use pilsner malt with a slice of wheat malt, mainly for head retention, and some sugar/candi to get the alcohol and dryness. I have used 3724. The Belle Saison wasn't available when I was last brewing (I'm just back to it after a couple of years off), so I'll certainly be trying that soon.

Saison is a fairly broad style. Of the commercial ones, I reckon the Bridge Road one is most similar to the Dupont.

As others have pointed out, you want a really fermentable wort, so mash long and low, and don't be afraid to use some sugar. I tend to brew a pale one, then on the yeast cake pitch a second batch to which I add some dark candi sugar, which gives a sweeter more complex finish, which is different but also good. My mates are fairly evenly split on which they prefer.

My 2c,
T.


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## mje1980 (1/1/15)

If you're used to 3724 don't bother with belle saison IMHO. Nothing wrong with belle saison but 3724 has much more character IMHO


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## Adr_0 (4/1/15)

Just a pic of the first one I did. Tastes amazing, very happy with it. Had a theoretical OG of 1053 and has finished at 1002, so ~7.3% ABV by the time I carbonated with 12g/L dextrose (should be 3.3-3.4volCO2).

The recipe was:

66.3% Pilsner (Dingemann)
18.4% Munich II (Weyermann)
0.6% Carafa Sp 1 for colour
14.7% Adro's special clear candi syrup - SG without the sugar was 1041, added at 1.021 (after 20 points of fermentation)
1.053 original gravity (theoretical)

17.1IBU of Czech Saaz at 60min (actually a touch of Northern Brewer was in here to hit my target IBU)
10IBU Czech Saaz at 30min
3.7IBU Styrian Goldings at 15min
Theoretically 30-31IBU

Added 0.75g/L fresh orange peel (Navel orange) with 5min left in the boil.

I fermented with 3724. Had a healthy pitch at just under 19°C, then rose to 23°C gently over 2 days, then let rip in Gladstone's summer for the rest. The candi syrup was added with some krausen left, but it didn't re-kraus at all. Total fermentation time was 20 days.

The beer below:




Smell is very Dupont, spicy, peppery but with some slight breadiness probably from the Munich II and very slight funkiness more noticeable when it warms. Taste is amazing... orange is actually hard to notice but it's bitter, peppery, lemony, spicy, slightly flowery (the candi syrup?) and is very dry and tart and then the funk comes in. Very very drinkable, goes down very easily.

I would call this a success...


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## NickyJ (4/1/15)

I had a crack at a saison recently and overall have declared it a failure. I'm putting it down to it being too hot up here (the banana flavour in this beer was huge) and that the brew shop didn't have enough pilsner malt so I went half pilsner, half lager.

Looking forward to having another go when it's a bit cooler. I have no temp control at this point.


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## indica86 (4/1/15)

NickyJ said:


> so I went half pilsner, half lager.


Umm what?
While I have seen pilsner malt I have not seen lager malt.
How is it different?


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## Adr_0 (4/1/15)

NickyJ said:


> I had a crack at a saison recently and overall have declared it a failure. I'm putting it down to it being too hot up here (the banana flavour in this beer was huge) and that the brew shop didn't have enough pilsner malt so I went half pilsner, half lager.
> Looking forward to having another go when it's a bit cooler. I have no temp control at this point.


Which yeast did you use?


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