# It's Apple Season



## punkin

It's nearly that time of year again and i'm getting excited. :icon_cheers: 

Went to check some roadside trees i know about and to spot some new ones just after New Year. All looking good with some colour on the small fruit already.

Looking back on last years bounty it was early march we found them. Some of the trees we were slightly too late for and a couple we were a week or two too early.

So thinking of making two trips this year to add to the apples off my own trees.

Last year we picked nearly three bins full to get 70kg, using a good sunbeam juicer we ended up with 40l of cider...










This year i'd like to double that at least. :icon_chickcheers: 




I'm in Northern tablelands of NSW, what time of year does everyone else get their apples in different regions, and how do you store them if they are ready at different times?


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## paul

punkin said:


> It's nearly that time of year again and i'm getting excited. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Went to check some roadside trees i know about and to spot some new ones just after New Year. All looking good with some colour on the small fruit already.
> 
> Looking back on last years bounty it was early march we found them. Some of the trees we were slightly too late for and a couple we were a week or two too early.
> 
> So thinking of making two trips this year to add to the apples off my own trees.
> 
> Last year we picked nearly three bins full to get 70kg, using a good sunbeam juicer we ended up with 40l of cider...
> 
> View attachment 51520
> 
> 
> View attachment 51521
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This year i'd like to double that at least. :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in Northern tablelands of NSW, what time of year does everyone else get their apples in different regions, and how do you store them if they are ready at different times?



Apples store fine in the fridge.

How did you make your cider?

I made a big batch a few years ago from apples and pear. I boiled it, cooled it and fermented it with reclutured Coopers yeast. It came out fairly dry and made you wobbly really quick.


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## [email protected]

I stored my apples from trees here last year in ventilated cardboard boxes, in the darkest / coolest spot i could find.
It was a couple of months before they started going down hill.
A refrigerated cool room with humidity control would be best, but ,my lotto numbers have not come up as yet.


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## punkin

I made it by extracting the juice and pitching yeast. Definately didn't boil it. 

I used some Danstil A distillers yeast i had in the fridge, but will probably use a bulk white wine yeast or a cider yeast this year.

It was a few weeks in primary (probably a month) and the same in secondary.

I'm going to sample some this afternoon to try and define a sourness on the back pallatte with some email help and will take a picture then.

It's quite dry, with a beautiful copper colour and the slightest sparkle.

I bottled with a teaspoon of white sugar, but i used a two handled wing capper on twist toppped longnecks. I heard that these will not give a proper seal and i put that down as the reason it doesn't sparkle.


I really, really like it as is, just need to identify if the late sourness is an infection or a PH issue.


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## Greg.L

My apples are looking good but the crop is much smaller than last year due to frost. At least a smaller crop means the apples ripen better, I'm hoping the sg will go above 1.050. I have heaps of seedling crab fruit this year so I will find out what the cider is like with lots of bitterness from crabs, they also keep the pH down which is good.


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## punkin

Yes we noticed the wild trees were all much barer in fruit than last year. It's been a wet, mild spring and summer here, so that may have something to do with it.


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## punkin

Got excited talking about it and went and cracked a sunday morning bottle...




No justice in the pics, it's a lighter colour and crystal clear without the condensation.


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## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> I have heaps of seedling crab fruit this year so I will find out what the cider is like with lots of bitterness from crabs, they also keep the pH down which is good.



I found that around 5% crab apple was about the spot to aim for. Any more and its too astringent. Even a tiny amount makes a huger difference to the cider.

Cheers
Dave


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## Greg.L

Airgead said:


> I found that around 5% crab apple was about the spot to aim for. Any more and its too astringent. Even a tiny amount makes a huger difference to the cider.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



Well, you can't really generalise about crabs, especially seedling crabs. Some of mine don't have much bitterness and some are very bitter, especially the small ones. I mainly use the bigger ones because you get more for your effort. I use well over 5%, this year more like 30% because I have so many and I want to test the limits of how much bitterness I can enjoy.

Mine are mainly John Downie seedlings.

Greg


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## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> Well, you can't really generalise about crabs, especially seedling crabs. Some of mine don't have much bitterness and some are very bitter, especially the small ones. I mainly use the bigger ones because you get more for your effort. I use well over 5%, this year more like 30% because I have so many and I want to test the limits of how much bitterness I can enjoy.
> 
> Mine are mainly John Downie seedlings.
> 
> Greg



That's right... you grow from seed don't you. They will vary a lot.

Mine are tiny and super astringent. And not much juice. It normally takes me the whole tree worth just to get 5% by volume of juice. 

Cheers
Dave


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## Greg.L

Here's a picture of one of my seedling crabs today.


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## pmunny

Me and the bro n law have been waiting all year to make some "roadsider"!
Heaps of them down near our farm


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## drsmurto

Currently supping on a glass of the Natural Selection Theory cider.

I really need to pull the finger out and brew a cider using the wild yeast on the skins to ferment it.

So wonderfully appley, dry, tart, cloudy with a touch of funk. 

It screams old world cider, not that clear, characterless shite that is commercially available (Strongbow, Magners/Bulmers, etc etc)


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## manticle

DrSmurto said:


> Currently supping on a glass of the Natural Selection Theory cider.
> 
> I really need to pull the finger out and brew a cider using the wild yeast on the skins to ferment it.
> 
> So wonderfully appley, dry, tart, cloudy with a touch of funk.
> 
> It screams old world cider, not that clear, characterless shite that is commercially available (Strongbow, Magners/Bulmers, etc etc)



Ever tried reculturing yeast from a bottle conditioned breton/normandy? Something I might try (although their keeving process etc might completely destroy it???)


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## punkin

DrSmurto said:


> Currently supping on a glass of the Natural Selection Theory cider.
> 
> I really need to pull the finger out and brew a cider using the wild yeast on the skins to ferment it.
> 
> So wonderfully appley, dry, tart, cloudy with a touch of funk.
> 
> It screams old world cider, not that clear, characterless shite that is commercially available (Strongbow, Magners/Bulmers, etc etc)




If you really are keening for that type of taste, i have a beauty from last years crop :icon_cheers: 




> Me and the bro n law have been waiting all year to make some "roadsider"!
> Heaps of them down near our farm



I'm so bloody gald i'm not the only one :beerbang:  

Greg, i'd kill for a box of them crabs.


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## Greg.L

punkin said:


> Greg, i'd kill for a box of them crabs.



I may have enough to sell some crabapple juice this year, but you would have to come to bathurst.

Greg


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## punkin

hmmmmm.. got anything to fish for or to shoot at?


TemptingPunkin


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## Greg.L

Definitely no hunting or fishing here, this is very much a hippy-type place. I don't even spray insects, it's all karma man.

Greg


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## punkin

No worries. I'll keep it in mind. Maybe next year, i'm going to play with pectinase and a tartaric acid blend this year.

Tossing up on this yeast..

http://www.enoltech.com.au/products/ever-m...erm-cru-05.html

The bloke i've been talking to reccomends this pretty strongly as a primary yeast that loves to eat fructose and can convert malic acid without a malolactic ferment..



> # Apples are very high in Fructose, most yeast do not like. Cru 05 is Fructophilic so it will not cause an issue in getting it dry. More ripe more Fructose
> 
> # If you wish to reduce Malic Acid without Malolactic ferment, this yeast will degrade up to 30% of the Malic acid through the primary ferment. More ripe less Malic, hence higher pH
> 
> # High Glycerin production 8-10g/l adding viscosity giving a softer mouth feel.



Anyone interested in splitting a pack?

I could throw in some bulk white wine yeast that would be perfect fro cleaning up in secondary and ensuring dryness, as i have stacks of it.


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## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> I may have enough to sell some crabapple juice this year, but you would have to come to bathurst.
> 
> Greg



If you do, drop me a line and I'm there... I'll even help you pick and juice them.

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto

manticle said:


> Ever tried reculturing yeast from a bottle conditioned breton/normandy? Something I might try (although their keeving process etc might completely destroy it???)



Fark I am such a retard.  

Didn't even think of that while pouring out the yeasty dregs from the bottle last night.

I have more bottles of the stuff so will have a crack at reculturing the yeast.

And by building up the cell count using apple juice i may as well drink the 'starter'......

Cheers Manticle!


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## manticle

Have to offer credit to Vitalstatistix who suggested it to me some time ago.

They sell a French cider at my local and I keep meaning to try and forgetting.

Let me know how you go anyway - definitely worth experimenting with.


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## Muggus

DrSmurto said:


> Currently supping on a glass of the Natural Selection Theory cider.
> 
> I really need to pull the finger out and brew a cider using the wild yeast on the skins to ferment it.
> 
> So wonderfully appley, dry, tart, cloudy with a touch of funk.
> 
> It screams old world cider, not that clear, characterless shite that is commercially available (Strongbow, Magners/Bulmers, etc etc)


Sounds like my kinda cider.

Might try and source some ciders locally this year. Though places in the Hunter arn't particularly common...more grapes really.


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## Fodder

DrSmurto said:


> It screams old world cider, not that clear, characterless shite that is commercially available (Strongbow, Magners/Bulmers, etc etc)



If you can find it, take a look at Westons 'Old Rosies' Scrumpy Cider. Usually in 2L glass flaggons (which if I could find a way to re-cap would work great for HB). 

I remember having it on tap whilst living in York (UK) and have seen it about in a few of the better bottle shops around town. Craps on those other characterless ones mentioned above.

7.8% and if the missues has one pint she'll be skipping down the cobbles stone lanes on the way to the next stop. ahh the memories, I miss the UK...


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## Airgead

Fodder said:


> If you can find it, take a look at Westons 'Old Rosies' Scrumpy Cider. Usually in 2L glass flaggons (which if I could find a way to re-cap would work great for HB).
> 
> I remember having it on tap whilst living in York (UK) and have seen it about in a few of the better bottle shops around town. Craps on those other characterless ones mentioned above.
> 
> 7.8% and if the missues has one pint she'll be skipping down the cobbles stone lanes on the way to the next stop. ahh the memories, I miss the UK...



Not a bad cider that one. Comes in 500ml and 2l flagons at my local Dan's (and probably yours as well).

Cheers
Dave


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## punkin

I'd be happy if i can get close to some of the Sutton's ciders. :icon_cheers:


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## Muggus

Fodder said:


> If you can find it, take a look at Westons 'Old Rosies' Scrumpy Cider. Usually in 2L glass flaggons (which if I could find a way to re-cap would work great for HB).
> 
> I remember having it on tap whilst living in York (UK) and have seen it about in a few of the better bottle shops around town. Craps on those other characterless ones mentioned above.
> 
> 7.8% and if the missues has one pint she'll be skipping down the cobbles stone lanes on the way to the next stop. ahh the memories, I miss the UK...


I also (first) tried it in the UK of hand pull, in London I think. Pint of that knocks you around a bit! Having said that, it'd be great to see more (scrumpy) ciders like it on the market.


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## Greg.L

I pressed my first apples today. 50L of "Kidd's orange red" with sg of 1.047 (a bit disappointing) and pH 3.4. 12L of crabs with sg of 1.060 and pH 3.3, 8L of beurre bosc pears with sg of 1.044, 70L all up with sg of 1.050 and pH 3.4. Pitched the yeast (awri350) and plan to rack in 6 days.


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## punkin

I had a look at this tree on saturday..





That picture is of a 20'+ tree in early March last year... unfortunately while the one or two apples i found were close to ripe, the tree has been stripped bare as far as you can reach with a ladder.


Suspect the pig growers are in there before me and fear that it will be the same at a lot of my favourite roadside trees. :unsure:


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## Greg.L

To reach the highest apples, you need a panking pole.

More rain here last night, the creek is up and the orchard is on the other side. It hasn't been an ideal season for growing fruit but at least the apples are easier to ripen than the grapes. The hailstones do less damage to the apples as well. It has been a good season for blackberries this year, if you live in new england there should be plenty of blackberries around.


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## punkin

Greg.L said:


> To reach the highest apples, you need a panking pole.
> 
> More rain here last night, the creek is up and the orchard is on the other side. It hasn't been an ideal season for growing fruit but at least the apples are easier to ripen than the grapes. The hailstones do less damage to the apples as well. It has been a good season for blackberries this year, if you live in new england there should be plenty of blackberries around.




They spray the blackberries round here. There should be mushrooms in the pine forests soon though. 


Doesn't help with my cider unfortunately and i'm down to my last dozen bottles from last year. :unsure:


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## the_new_darren

Does it matter if you use bruised or "seconds" apples?

tnd


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## Jace89

I dont think I have ever seen a 'wild' apple tree in my life? I'd love to make cider with some road side apples man!


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## Greg.L

the_new_darren said:


> Does it matter if you use bruised or "seconds" apples?
> 
> tnd



Doesn't matter at all. Cider apples get bumped round a bit, even a few grubs don't matter. Just don't use rotten fruit.

In the ranges of NSW and VIC its common for seedlings to grow along the roads. There are a few wildlings along my road, most go to waste. There are wild plums and quinces round here as well, hawthorns and lots of blackberries, all free for the taking.


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## the_new_darren

Greg.L said:


> Doesn't matter at all. Cider apples get bumped round a bit, even a few grubs don't matter. Just don't use rotten fruit.
> 
> In the ranges of NSW and VIC its common for seedlings to grow along the roads. There are a few wildlings along my road, most go to waste. There are wild plums and quinces round here as well, hawthorns and lots of blackberries, all free for the taking.



I dont have any apple trees or "wild" ones I know of. I was wondering if growers sell seconds cheaply for "juicing"

tnd


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## punkin

the_new_darren said:


> I dont have any apple trees or "wild" ones I know of. I was wondering if growers sell seconds cheaply for "juicing"
> 
> tnd




Good to see you say something genuine.


Yes, the growers sell seconds.
Around $7 for a box in my area. Mostly they go to pig farmers or the growers feed them to their cattle or livestock. All orchards seem to be the same (stonefruit, berries etc).

Sometimes you need to make an aquantaince with a farmer and they'll let you take what you want for nothing, but there's nothing the cockies like more than a bit of a trade. Be it jam, or wine or whatever.


There's very little wrong with the seconds though, maybe a blemish or something. Mostly you can't tell them from the marketable fruit. They all eat up good.


Knock on some doors with some humble in your hat and see how you go, i think you'll be surprised.


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## sim

Greg.L said:


> Doesn't matter at all. Cider apples get bumped round a bit, even a few grubs don't matter. Just don't use rotten fruit.



yep, rotten, drops and windfalls pose a danger of botulism


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## Greg.L

sim said:


> yep, rotten, drops and windfalls pose a danger of botulism



Well, no. Rotten fruit can give off-flavours to your cider. There's absolutely nothing wrong with windfalls, cider apples are normally harvested from the ground with sweeper machines. Cider is a very safe drink, no risk at all from botulism. You may possibly get botulism from untreated juice, but even that is very unlikely.


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## sim

Greg.L said:


> Well, no. Rotten fruit can give off-flavours to your cider. There's absolutely nothing wrong with windfalls, cider apples are normally harvested from the ground with sweeper machines. Cider is a very safe drink, no risk at all from botulism. You may possibly get botulism from untreated juice, but even that is very unlikely.



happy to stand corrected, just reading in "Cider - Making, using and enjoying sweet and hard cider" by Annie proulx and Lew Nichols that "drops... can be the source of the possibly deadly botulism. ...dont use drops in your cider making" p148.


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## Greg.L

sim said:


> happy to stand corrected, just reading in "Cider - Making, using and enjoying sweet and hard cider" by Annie proulx and Lew Nichols that "drops... can be the source of the possibly deadly botulism. ...dont use drops in your cider making" p148.



Americans have funny ideas about germs and stuff. The fact is that in England they wait till a good portion of the apples have dropped before harvesting, and as I said harvest with sweeping machines. For cider you want the apples as ripe as possible, which means that quite a few will drop while you wait - the situation i am in at the moment as I wait for mine to ripen fully. The fermentation process kills off harmful bacteria, what with the alcohol and co2 and all. if you are drinking raw juice it is another matter.


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## Greg.L

Today my cider was down to 1 baume (about 1.008 sg) so I racked into the fermenter bag and pitched the MLF culture. The cider smelled and tasted good, no H2S or vinegar, very fruity with a bit of the bubblegum/pear drops flavour but I know that will go with age. The Bags are 250L metallised bags, a big advantage is no air in them before they are filled, very good seal and I can fill them a bit at a time. I will eventually get the whole 250L filled as other trees ripen.


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## punkin

5 days, fast ferment alright. I left mine last year from mid march till the end of may for the primary and then half went into another fermenter until july.

Can you tell me more about the bags? Can't quite get my head around the handling of them..
Some pics would help.


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## Greg.L

A photo here

I got the cardboard barrels from multipac.


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## O'Henry

Last year my mate and I traded a case of beer for 150kg of apples from a grower. We couldn't even juice them all. I agree that talking to a farmer is a good idea.


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## Greg.L

Today I pressed 100L of juice. 60L of "cornish gilliflower" with an sg of 1.063 and pH of 3.4, very pleased with that, 20L of crabs with sg of 1.065 and pH of 3.5, some "twenty ounce" with sg of 1.047.


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## sim

Wow, nice cellar Greg!


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## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> Today I pressed 100L of juice. 60L of "cornish gilliflower" with an sg of 1.063 and pH of 3.4, very pleased with that, 20L of crabs with sg of 1.065 and pH of 3.5, some "twenty ounce" with sg of 1.047.



Nice. Love to hear how that comes out.


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## punkin

Went apple picking today. Got two and a half garbage bins off one big tree. I already have a bin full at home, so i figure around 100kg of apples.

The bin full at home was from two boxes someone picked me from their cider apple tree.


There is a stack of quinces growing wild too, does anyone know if they are any good for blending with cider?



I'll start juicing later this week or next week, there's some other trees i know about too that i'd like to have a look at.


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## vic45

Started picking Sunday. Filled the box with roughly even amounts of 3 different varieties.
Should have picked more but had to get home to brew. Try to get back next weekend.
We will juice tomorrow night. Never done cider before, really interested to see how this goes.

Just after we took the photo the whole bloody lot fell over backwards, kids thought it was hilarious.


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## punkin

Well did some apples through the Breville after work today. Started off with a real disapointment in that the first bin full (that i'd been given) was so full of moth grubs that it wasn't worth going through them. <_< 

Never mind, they'll give a nice taste to the pigs we're killing this w'end. :icon_cheers: 

Started on the ones we picked last w'end and they went fantastic. Got through a bin and a half (have one more to go tommorow) and weighed as i went 55kgs.

Did an efficiency check with exactly 10 kilos of apples gave us exactly 7 litres of juice.

Really happy at 70% efficiency. As good as i could expect for a scratter and press and a fuckin lot easier to store. :beerbang: 

Two hours spot on from setup to shower with the missus halving apples and flicking the biggest grubs out and myself on the juicer.
Have pitched yeast and 2ml of pectinase. i'll do a hydrometer reading tommorow on the new juice for og. Still waiting on my Lactic acid blend to clear customs so i'll have to adjust Ph during the ferment.


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## punkin

Ended up doing 80 kg's of apples. Should have over 50l of juice. I'm a complete dickhead and forgot the sg reading until i chucked the last drop intot the fermenter that's been going since yesterday  
Still and all i got 1051, so should get me 6.6% if it gets down to 0 and another % if it gets down to .990.


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## Muscovy_333

Hi Y'all, 
Just stripped a huge apple tree and scored some sour little beauties. 
Q: Has anyone tried chopping and coring apples instead of juicing to use in cider. I was looking up some old school recipes a couple of months back and they were using quartered apples, not juiced.
Nedless to say, if i can avoid the juicing step, i'd be happy.
Last time juicing took fOREVER!


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## sponge

Greg.L said:


> A photo here
> 
> I got the cardboard barrels from multipac.



I have a fair case of brewer-envy right about now.

That 'cellar' is glorious.



Sponge


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## manticle

Muscovy said:


> Hi Y'all,
> Just stripped a huge apple tree and scored some sour little beauties.
> Q: Has anyone tried chopping and coring apples instead of juicing to use in cider. I was looking up some old school recipes a couple of months back and they were using quartered apples, not juiced.
> Nedless to say, if i can avoid the juicing step, i'd be happy.
> Last time juicing took fOREVER!



hard cider is made from the juice (soft cider). You could add apples to water and get a bit of apple flavour but it would be a waste in my mind -like soaking grapes in water to make wine.


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## Muscovy_333

manticle said:


> hard cider is made from the juice (soft cider). You could add apples to water and get a bit of apple flavour but it would be a waste in my mind -like soaking grapes in water to make wine.




Thankya very much. 
Perhaps i will peel of my socks, grab my wetsuit tub and do some apple stomping instead. 

Tinea Cider, got a nice ring to it.

Job for long weekend: Rig up some rudimentary levered device to crush apples using brute force!


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## Tim F

I'm keen to make some cider this year and looking in to getting some seconds. I have a grape crusher/destemmer and a basket press - anyone reckon this might be enough to smoosh then press the apples for juice?


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## Greg.L

Tim F said:


> I'm keen to make some cider this year and looking in to getting some seconds. I have a grape crusher/destemmer and a basket press - anyone reckon this might be enough to smoosh then press the apples for juice?



I don't think a grape crusher will work with apples. You have to crush them somehow, some people use an axe handle to pound them in a bucket. A basket press will workbut you need plenty of apples.

I got back from a trip today to check out the flood damage. The place looks a bit battered, I'm pleased I have a bit of fruit left but not as much as I thought. The pump and bridge were a bit damaged but nothing major.


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## punkin

This is how one of our members from another forum handled 800kg of apples this season in NZ.

edit; forgot the link


http://medicinalpurposes.wordpress.com/201...-a-cider-press/


First he pulped them with a sharpened motar mixer (threw in some pectinase too), then froze the pulp while he built the press. It's the same principle as a wine press, so should work the same.



To those afraid of juicing, i did 80 kg's in three hours flat with the missus halving and trimming and me juicing.


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## Malted

punkin said:


> This is how one of our members from another forum handled 800kg of apples this season in NZ.



Terrific press. How nice are the tools in the workshop he had access to!


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## manticle

Greg.L said:


> I don't think a grape crusher will work with apples. You have to crush them somehow, some people use an axe handle to pound them in a bucket. A basket press will workbut you need plenty of apples.



Grape crusher works OK but you may have to cut them in 1/4s first.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

punkin said:


> This is how one of our members from another forum handled 800kg of apples this season in NZ.
> 
> edit; forgot the link
> 
> 
> http://medicinalpurposes.wordpress.com/201...-a-cider-press/
> 
> 
> First he pulped them with a sharpened motar mixer (threw in some pectinase too), then froze the pulp while he built the press. It's the same principle as a wine press, so should work the same.
> 
> 
> 
> To those afraid of juicing, i did 80 kg's in three hours flat with the missus halving and trimming and me juicing.



What juicer did you have? Brand & Model - I have a GF mate who wants to do some cidering with me, and will likely purchase the equipment if it's reasonably cost effective for him.

Cheers,
Goomba


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## punkin

http://www.breville.com.au/beverages/juice...aintm-plus.html

This one.
Takes whole apples, although they go easier on the machine if halved or quartered.


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## mxd

I just attempted my first cider, 20ltrs of Aldi Apple Juice and using us05. I went for the beer yeast as I had it  and a few "homebrew" ciders I have tried used a wine yeast that was too "winey" for me and a little too dry.

The OG of my juice was 1.042, since I'm using US05 it will only drop to 1.010 ?? 

My Question, if I want more alcohol and even a little drier, by adding sugar, if I add it now, does it increase OG or assist in lowing FG ?


So if I want a 4.8% type drop how much sugar do I add ?

sorry for my noobness, I did search but couldn't find things 

thanks
Matt


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## Sprungmonkey

just work out what OG you need to give you 4.8% and then work out the amount of sugar syrup you need to add (sugar syrups have a sg of around 1.3) to reach that gravity



mxd said:


> I just attempted my first cider, 20ltrs of Aldi Apple Juice and using us05. I went for the beer yeast as I had it  and a few "homebrew" ciders I have tried used a wine yeast that was too "winey" for me and a little too dry.
> 
> The OG of my juice was 1.042, since I'm using US05 it will only drop to 1.010 ??
> 
> My Question, if I want more alcohol and even a little drier, by adding sugar, if I add it now, does it increase OG or assist in lowing FG ?
> 
> 
> So if I want a 4.8% type drop how much sugar do I add ?
> 
> sorry for my noobness, I did search but couldn't find things
> 
> thanks
> Matt


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## the_new_darren

If juiced apples come in at 1.060 and apple juice is 1.042, does that mean the apple juice is watered down or just a different type of apple?

tnd


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## manticle

Just like grapes, apples and subsequent juice will vary season to season.

I've bought challenger hops at 11%aa one season, 6.2 % another and seen them advertised at around 4%.

Most juice of my experience, whether fresh crushed/pressed or store bought is around 1050-1060.


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## Greg.L

the_new_darren said:


> If juiced apples come in at 1.060 and apple juice is 1.042, does that mean the apple juice is watered down or just a different type of apple?
> 
> tnd



The juice you buy in a supermarket is mostly made from concentrate so the amount of water added is up to the processor. They leave the amount of sugar they consider the best balance between consumer demand and profit. Supermarket juice is a processed food, concentrated, pasteurised, diluted, stabilised etc etc. Fresh pressed juice is a completely different thing, the only thing in common is they both come from apples. Fresh pressed juice will vary with the seasons, the stage of ripeness and the variety, also cultural factors such as irrigation, fertiliser, pesticides etc. A good craft cider is a very individual thing, an expression of the fruit and the "terrior" as the French say, plus the cidermaker's input.

Greg


----------



## mxd

the_new_darren said:


> If juiced apples come in at 1.060 and apple juice is 1.042, does that mean the apple juice is watered down or just a different type of apple?
> 
> tnd



I assume different apples, some one on this thread mention they had a 1.060, 1.050 and 1.038.

But hey, it's aldi


----------



## Muscovy_333

Greg.L said:


> The juice you buy in a supermarket is mostly made from concentrate so the amount of water added is up to the processor. They leave the amount of sugar they consider the best balance between consumer demand and profit. Supermarket juice is a processed food, concentrated, pasteurised, diluted, stabilised etc etc. Fresh pressed juice is a completely different thing, the only thing in common is they both come from apples. Fresh pressed juice will vary with the seasons, the stage of ripeness and the variety, also cultural factors such as irrigation, fertiliser, pesticides etc. A good craft cider is a very individual thing, an expression of the fruit and the "terrior" as the French say, plus the cidermaker's input.
> 
> Greg




The amount of water added or more correcty the composition of "apple juice" will be stipulated by FSANZ (Food Standards Australia and New Zealand). Processors need to ensure the composition falls within a regulated range to be able to call it apple juice. Commercial apple juice is more likely filtered, except the 'cloudy' versions. 
Home grown apples= Seasonal = not standardised to the regs.


----------



## Greg.L

Muscovy said:


> The amount of water added or more correcty the composition of "apple juice" will be stipulated by FSANZ (Food Standards Australia and New Zealand). Processors need to ensure the composition falls within a regulated range to be able to call it apple juice. Commercial apple juice is more likely filtered, except the 'cloudy' versions.
> Home grown apples= Seasonal = not standardised to the regs.



Can you enlighten us as to the range allowed? I would have thought it would have been based on the range for straight apple juice. It would be odd if juice straight from an apple and only pasteurised were to fall outside the allowable range.


----------



## Muscovy_333

Greg.L said:


> Can you enlighten us as to the range allowed? I would have thought it would have been based on the range for straight apple juice. It would be odd if juice straight from an apple and only pasteurised were to fall outside the allowable range.




Every season the apples would be different. It is not uncommon for food manufatcurers to extend their products for maximum yield. 
Food standards therefore ensure the 'cowboys' are kept under control. As you mentioned, alot of processors import juice concentrate and reconstitute it. Even the companies that use Australian grown apples. One of those commercial necessities.

The range: no more than 40g/kg of added sugar.

Linky


----------



## punkin

mxd said:


> I just attempted my first cider, 20ltrs of Aldi Apple Juice and using us05. I went for the beer yeast as I had it  and a few "homebrew" ciders I have tried used a wine yeast that was too "winey" for me and a little too dry.
> 
> The OG of my juice was 1.042, since I'm using US05 it will only drop to 1.010 ??
> 
> My Question, if I want more alcohol and even a little drier, by adding sugar, if I add it now, does it increase OG or assist in lowing FG ?
> 
> 
> So if I want a 4.8% type drop how much sugar do I add ?
> 
> sorry for my noobness, I did search but couldn't find things
> 
> thanks
> Matt




Not that this has much to do with a thread about apples, but i'd be fairly worried about the longevity of a cider that has such a low alc volume. Not that i could see it finishing at 4.1% (1.01) but even if it finished dry it's still only a bit over 5%.


----------



## punkin

Got two more bins full today, should be another 40l or so. that'll do me for this season.

Real nice, clean apples too. as big as a double fist. :icon_cheers:


----------



## troopa

Ended up getting another cube out yesterday as well
I think the 2 cubes is about it from what were going to get from my mates orchard as the birds have decimated the rest .. time to look at netting next year as we should of gotten about close to 200 liters by whats on the ground

not bad for our first run ever on fresh juice but i got an itch now.. 
Anyone know of/want to consider going halves in a crate of seconds somewhere in melb/gippsland areas? (Depends on price of course as i got no idea how much a crate of seconds are)


----------



## punkin

On the last batch i added some lactic acid to bring the ph down to 3 when i pitched the yeast after juicing. This was on advice from a wine guy, so i'll be interested in the outcome.


----------



## Greg.L

Why such a low pH? I haven't heard of anyone aiming so low. 3.4 or below is fine for me.


----------



## pat_00

So I want to make some cider. The proper dry suffolk style stuff.

I'm in Preston, Melb. Where can I get the right apples for this? I read a lot of people substitute a small amount crab apples? Where can I get those?


----------



## Greg.L

There's no easy answer. You can grow your own apples, but it takes some time. Like punkin you can check out your local area for trees, this is the best way to get crabs. Apples at the market are often picked early so don't make the best cider, cider apples need to be fully ripe. Apples from cold storage will have a very high pH, not so good. It is getting a bit late but there might be late apples still on the trees if you ask around. Like wine, good English style cider is seasonal, you can't make it all year round.

Greg


----------



## manticle

Pretty hard to get the right apples for suffolk cider here.

Can try using a blend of eating apples and make sure you cover all the bases - sweet, tannic, bitter and acid. Can add crab apples (I've never used them) malic and tannic acid if you need to.

When I've used apples, I've found as many types as I could and used in equal portions with a touch of pear and nashi fruit.

Will be trying again in later autumn but with hopefully better extraction efficiency and some malic/tannic acid (which I've used with success in store bought juice based ciders)


----------



## Newbee(r)

Just scored 70kg of pink lady apples fresh off the tree (Canberra late harvest) which will go in the ferment on the weekend. Given these are table apples, do I need to do additions malic tannic etc or should it come out fine without them? Looking for a moderately sweet dry cider. Also, it doesn't look like anyone is using camden tablets to head off the wild yeasts on the fruit. I plan on breville juicing them, so figure they won't be on the skins but don't want to add extra sulphur if it isn't needed.


----------



## Muscovy_333

Newbee(r) said:


> Just scored 70kg of pink lady apples fresh off the tree (Canberra late harvest) which will go in the ferment on the weekend. Given these are table apples, do I need to do additions malic tannic etc or should it come out fine without them? Looking for a moderately sweet dry cider.



Homebrew ciders will always ferment out dry unless you intervene in some way. 

I have made a few attempts, my best result being 'wild apples' from a few self sewn trees at my folks house, picked tart and a small addition malic acid to taste pre-ferment.

IMHO, i would definitely add acid to table apples for a better result. 

When you figure out how to consistently retain sweetness please let me know.


----------



## Airgead

Newbee(r) said:


> Just scored 70kg of pink lady apples fresh off the tree (Canberra late harvest) which will go in the ferment on the weekend. Given these are table apples, do I need to do additions malic tannic etc or should it come out fine without them? Looking for a moderately sweet dry cider. Also, it doesn't look like anyone is using camden tablets to head off the wild yeasts on the fruit. I plan on breville juicing them, so figure they won't be on the skins but don't want to add extra sulphur if it isn't needed.



Straight pink Ladies may well come out too bland. I have had pink lady cider before and it was like fizzy water. You may well need to add some acid.

I'm using a mix of pink lady (for bulk), breaburn and granny smith. I have 50kg of them in the fridge ready to juice up this weekend. I'll throw in some crab apples as well. The grannies add a little acid and improve things no end.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## manticle

A touch of malic and tannic (around 5g of each from memory in 24 L) gave a nice complexity in two ciders that I've not had before. First lot added post ferment, 2nd pre-ferment.

Preference for the pre-ferment.

No need for sulphites with either fresh apples nor store bought juice in my experience - just get a nice healthy yeast starter going first.


----------



## Fents

went to the kellybrook cider festival on the weekend and took a cube to get some juice for my yearly KB Cider. at $4 a litre its not cheap but the juice is superb so should make a great cider.


----------



## evildrakey

There's a couple of great vids on youtube (of all places).

The one I'm going to give a go went like this...

*Stage 1*: Feed apples through one of those small cheap electric chipping machines into a big tub.
*Stage 2*: Separate liquid from solids.
*Stage 3*: Put apple chunks into a decent wooden crank-handle wine press.
*Stage 4*: Go Hard, collect the juice.

The way they fermented after the pressing was, frankly criminal, but the pressing process looked quite efficient...

they've blocked youtube at work but I can link it tonight...


----------



## manticle

Why criminal?

Was it a natural ferment (ie yeast present on the apple skins used to ferment)?


----------



## Greg.L

You should check the pH or TA before adding acid. Dessert apples can be more acidic than you think. I don't much like malic acid in cider, but if you can make it sweet it would balance. No point adding acid if the pH is under 3.4, which is perfectly possible given the cool summer this year.


----------



## evildrakey

Not so much that Manti... I'd have to look at the video again. I just remember watching it and going... yeah thats cool, yep... yep... the being faintly disgusted about something towards the end... I'll send the link in about 3 hours when I get home from work...


----------



## Newbee(r)

Great responses thanks. The granny smiths are coming off the trees this week helpfully, so will do 20kg GS to 70kg pinks across two batches, and check ph before a small malic and tannic additions. 

Re sweetness, I could monitor gravity closely and crash chill the yeast hard before it hits FG, rack and filter to maintain sweetness and just enough residual yeast should remain to carb over time, but think a 150-200g lactose addition to balance afterwards would be lower risk. 90kg of apples should give me two batches of 18 litres all going well, so might do a side by side and post the results. 

Thanks again

J


----------



## Muscovy_333

Greg.L said:


> You should check the pH or TA before adding acid. Dessert apples can be more acidic than you think. I don't much like malic acid in cider, but if you can make it sweet it would balance. No point adding acid if the pH is under 3.4, which is perfectly possible given the cool summer this year.




Yep, valid point for sure. 
Less risk of stressing the yeast as well.


----------



## evildrakey

http://youtu.be/TmNWHR4dldc


----------



## Newbee(r)

Just finalising the cider brew for the weekend. I have the Vintner SN9 dry yeast or S-04, ringwood, scottish, irish and german ale yeast on hand. Need to get the starter going tomorrow. I bought the SN9 as a cider yeast, but after some googling it seems like SN9 is a bit of a freight train yeast. Any suggestions?


----------



## troopa

London Ale
Just kegged an Aldi Apple Blackcurrent with a nice twist from the yeast


----------



## Newbee(r)

The following link is a cracker. The brewer basically tests a wide range of yeasts and timings of additions for ciders. Really informative. 


http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....f=9&t=64821


----------



## Newbee(r)

Around 50kg of apples, each one scrubbed, quartered cored and juiced. 38% pink ladies, 9% granny smith, 3% pears. cup of strong tea for tannin (4 soaked for 20 min teabags) in a large mug, a teaspoon of malic acid, yeast nutrient and 100g lactose. Went with US-05 at the end of the day. 26L juice in the fermenter with no scum. A truckload of work, but the lovely rose ruby juice looks and tastes amazing. Next brew day will be breeze in comparison!!


----------



## punkin

Will be bottling my cider very shortly over the next few days. May well keg one keg full too if i run out of bottles.

I had a taste from the hydro tube again yesterday. It's down to just a mick under 1.000 and tastes beautiful, crisp and tart. There is a real apple taste shining through already where it's normally quite 'winey' until it's had a couple or 6 months conditioning.

It's gotta be a combination of the Cru-05 yeast and the lactic acid blend i bought from the winery supplies.


I'm one _very_ happy little punkinhead right now


----------



## Airgead

Pished 50kg of apples through the juicer last weekend giving me 2 full kegs of juice. Mix of around 25% pink lady, 50% braeburn 25% granny smith. OG was a shade under 1.050.

Fermenting with the CRU-05 this year instead of my usual WY4766 so we'll see what happens.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - I got all my apples for free this year. I pick up the seconds and windfalls so they guy just gave them to me. Saves him paying to get rid of them. I'm trying to do a deal for next year to pick up a ton or so, get licensed and sell the resulting thousand or so bottles through the orchard. Turns his waste product into something that should fetch a good few $/bottle. We'll see.


----------



## punkin

That's an excellent idea. i've visited Suttons before and their cider starts at $13 a bottle.

So worth it too, it's great stuff.

I'll be really interested to hear your views on the difference the yeast makes.


----------



## Airgead

punkin said:


> That's an excellent idea. i've visited Suttons before and their cider starts at $13 a bottle.
> 
> So worth it too, it's great stuff.
> 
> I'll be really interested to hear your views on the difference the yeast makes.



I'll need to build myself a decent press first though. Actually, I'm going to do that anyway. Having spent 2 days juicing apples through my little screw press juicer I'm well over it. A nice basket press with enough spece for 50kg of apples. One press and my regular batch is done. Less pulp mixed in too. 

Should even handle a ton or so over a weekend. 20 presses/ton...

Going to base it on a 5t bottle jack I have lying around. That should do the job nicely.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## troopa

Personally for a tonne or more off apples and commercial on selling i would be looking at a sturdy C channel steel press with stainless perforated basket reinforced with stainless flat bar somewhere around the 500mm diameter by 500-700mm high or more and with the steel frame you could then be able to go with something like 20-30tonne without too many issues. This should be able to fit somewhere about 20-30kg of scratted apple in it
Thats still 40 presses for a tonne and at 10 mins each plus scrattering and handling time its doable with a few mates/flaggoons of scrumpy 

There was a wine press i saw up at Tyralls winery in the hunter valley that had a basket of 1.2m and was 1.5m high with a 100tonne hydraulic jack ... i want that 

Ive just changed companies and now maintain and repair scroll and bowl style seperation units (screw press) this style of system gets used to press/squeeze moisture out of anything and im trying to come up with some sort of home brew style of thing but i dont really see it getting off the ground 

http://www.plantmachinerysales.com.au/buy/...&R=11042964

although you can get one for $5500 lol

And a really cool video


----------



## Greg.L

in England the voran press is top of the range, I don't even know if you can buy these in Australia.


----------



## troopa

Greg.L said:


> in England the voran press is top of the range, I don't even know if you can buy these in Australia.





Ill take 2 please


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## punkin

Bottled yesterday. Igot 2 dozen 340ml stubbies. a dozen pint stubbies and two corney kegs full of cider from the roadside apples.

I'm tasting the sherbet twang still, my winery guy is a little aprehensive that i may have a malic fermentation going on, but i'm still hopeful that i've just gone to hard on the lactic acid blend.

i'll do a Ph test tommorow, should give me an idea what's going on. he's predicting bottle bombs.....


----------



## Greg.L

punkin said:


> Bottled yesterday. Igot 2 dozen 340ml stubbies. a dozen pint stubbies and two corney kegs full of cider from the roadside apples.
> 
> I'm tasting the sherbet twang still, my winery guy is a little aprehensive that i may have a malic fermentation going on, but i'm still hopeful that i've just gone to hard on the lactic acid blend.
> 
> i'll do a Ph test tommorow, should give me an idea what's going on. he's predicting bottle bombs.....



You don't get bottle bombs from MLF, only a small amount of co2 is produced. It would push a cork out but crown caps should be fine. If you did an initial pH then testing now should tell you if MLF has happened.


----------



## Airgead

Mine's been slowly fermenting away at a cool 15-16C. Down from 1.050 to 1.012 as of today. Still ticking away. Tasting pretty good. Should be a cracker when it finishes. It better be. I have 40l of it...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## punkin

Apple season rolling around again soon. Unfortunately all my trees except for the actual cider apple tree have been stripped by a massive hailstorm a couple of months ago that was folowed by an invasion of lorikeets that cleaned up the trees that were laden with a massive haul of damaged fruit.

Meanwhile, the roadside trees are loaded round the area this year, so with a little rain tween now and march we should be good to go.


My preparation questions are;

I have a mate with a winery that has offered me the use of a very large press much like this one..

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70090-fs-grapeolive-hydraulic-basket-press-adelaide/

Trouble being that i don't own a scratter. My mate says why not just press them whole, but i believe i will have to chunk them first to get efficiency.

I'm thinking the best way to do this on the cheap without having large equipment to store would be to buy a purposed garden mulcher.

I intend to pick 6-8 garbage bins of apples to do at least 100-120l of cider.



That leaves my two questions.
One, which of the common garden mulchers would do the job in peoples opinions...
And two, will i need to build cheeses or just tip the pulp in?

http://www.bunnings.com.au/products_category_garden-power-tools_1583.aspx?filter=categoryname--Garden+Shredders


----------



## Greg.L

Any cheap shredder should do the job, so long as it is easy to clean. You definitely need to shred them.
A press can be very simple, my first year I used the weight of my tractor to press against, a jack, a few boards and cloth made from mossie netting.
The next year I used a frame from an old workbench.







You can make a simple frame or adapt something. Your friends press looks like mild steel, so you would need to paint all the exposed metal (any iron turns cider black when exposed to air). Otherwise it would work ok. No need for cheeses, though perhaps you could replace the basket with boards and cloths, it would be more efficient and no metal contact.


----------



## 4feathers

Holy shit, why can't i get in the car, go for a drive, pick some Apples, smash em up, ferment and drink, why why why. I am sick with envy.... :icon_drool2:


----------



## Phoney

I once got in the car, drove to an orchard out in the sticks that was juicing that day, got them to fill up a 25L cube of freshly pressed juice (got a 50/50 blend of Granny Smith / pink lady). i think they charged around $1.20/L. anyway took it home and fermented it with WY4766.

To be honest it turned out no better than my other batches made with store bought 100% juice. Definitely not worth the hassle IMO.


----------



## punkin

Thanks Greg, i just showed the link as an example pic of the type of equipment. My mates gear is all 100% stainless in contact with the juice and painted where it's not.
The basket is slightly larger than that too, i think he said it did about a tonne of grape in less than 20mins.

So do you think one of those little 2400 watt shredders will do the job for me?


----------



## Greg.L

The little shredders work fine, shredding a bucket of pomace takes me about 5-10 min - wear ear protection.Small apples go very fast but big cookers have to be pushed through - use a lump of wood not your hand. You have to take off the plastic cowl which is to stop idiots from touching the spinning blades. If it is all ss then a basket press is fine, but a bit heartbreaking to see the juice left behind. If you aren't too worried about the yield they are excellent. In wineries they use basket presses for the red wine after fermenting on the skins is finished, the pressing of the skins is very easy. I have pressed chardonnay grapes with a basket press (after going through the crusher) the stuff left behind was still very wet, we got about 50% and that is with a hydraulic ram. But it has to be better than a juicer.

I tested a seedling tree which is usually my first to ripen. The brix was already 14 (7.8 be) and the pH 3.6 even though they are still firm and don't taste ripe. The hot sunny weather is going to push the sugar right up, very low acid, but lots of flavour and small fruit. I hope I can get some high acid fruit from my cookers, to balance the pear juice which will be very low acid this year.


----------



## punkin

I get close to 70% with my juicer.


----------



## Greg.L

I read that juicers leave an awful lot of sludge in with the juice, and you have to cut up every apple.


----------



## Airgead

True that.

You get a good efficiency (at least with a good screw pres juicer) but yes, very cloudy and you do need to cut up every apple. It takes me a full day to push 40kg of apples through my juicer. I'm looking into a basket press to make the job easier and quicker. As I get my apples for free and can have as many as I like, efficiency is of secondary concern.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Slightly OT, but only just - is there any 'free trees' and/or farms selling cheap 2nds apples in NW Tassie?

I'm moving in about 2 weeks' time and I managed to hold on to the Breville Juicer (great machine) and I'll make some cider (some or all of which will mysteriously become calvados).

Goomba


----------



## einnebcj

I have never done it, but I have a sunbeam juicer (older bu similar model to this - http://www.sunbeam.com.au/products/kitchen/je8600 that you just drop the apple in whole and it juices it in seconds. I have no idea how efficient it is but it seems to get plenty of juice from an apple. Why is a press better and if it gets more juice - are we talking sigficantly more?


----------



## Greg.L

You can certainly use a juicer, many people do, but it gets very tiresome for large quantities. If you are doing a big load of apples it is much quicker to use a press. You can get 200kg off one apple tree in a good season, and you only get one harvest a year so you need to make lots of cider to last the rest of the year. Even with my basic press I can do 30L/hr. But if you just want to do a 20L batch, a juicer is fine.


----------



## punkin

Using my juicer i can put whole apples in, but it prefers them cut. using unsprayed apples i need to cut them anyway as i'm not comfortable with the grubs in cider and trim them out. It takes me and the missus 2 - 2 1/2 hours to process 70-100 kg of apples.

The juice is cloudy but it settles very well over a few months in the fermenter to a brilliant clear. you do have to put up some oxidization. There also can be a lot of fine sludge. i kegged two kegs too early this year after some fermenter problems and they have fine particles in them. I've been drinking them, but they are destined for rectification.

With good apples i can certainly reproduce 30l an hour pretty easily.

I am looking for a better process though, so i'll be checking out the shredders and i'll take some pics of the press next time i'm at my mates. It's pretty imPRESSive. :lol:


----------



## punkin

Just a pic of the actual press i have access to now.

I think it's around 20 tonne, the basket is 750mm by 800mm deep, takes 20 mins to cycle...










Belongs to a member here (stephenkentucky) who has graciously allowed me to use it if i don't interfere at vintage :lol:


----------



## Greg.L

Do you need 3 phase for that press?


----------



## punkin

Yes, pretty sure it operates on 3 phase. As i said, it's at one of the members wineries he has just offered me use of it when i want it.

I do know he has three phase as we are looking at running three phase to his (licensed, commercial) Stilldragon still.


----------



## Greg.L

I harvested my first early apple seedling trees today, one tree was 1.065 sg and the other 1.073, pH around 3.5, so I was pretty pleased with that. I also added some cookers and pears which bought the sg down to 1.060 in the blend, will be a pretty potent cider.


----------



## punkin

I'll have to go for a spin and have a look. May be early here too. We've had a weird season, dry then wet.


----------



## Greg.L

This is my pressing setup this year.


----------



## citizensnips

that is cool


----------



## punkin

Couple of weeks away here i think.


----------



## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> This is my pressing setup this year.


Dude... that is one gnarly looking press.

How long does one fill/press cycle take with that and what weight of apple are you doing each time?

Cheers


----------



## Greg.L

Airgead said:


> Dude... that is one gnarly looking press.
> 
> How long does one fill/press cycle take with that and what weight of apple are you doing each time?
> 
> Cheers


I made the press with a chainsaw and some local yellow box tree trunks. I can press 25kg apples, giving 15L of juice and takes about 30 min if all goes well.


----------



## Airgead

Greg.L said:


> I made the press with a chainsaw and some local yellow box tree trunks. I can press 25kg apples, giving 15L of juice and takes about 30 min if all goes well.


Using a bottle jack to provide power? What size jack do you use? How did you construct the pressing boards? Solid slabs or glued up panels?

I'm looking at building something similar... but less... ahh ...rustic. For next year. Given that all I will be doing is cider, the board/cloth type will be easier to make than a basket press and I suspect get better extraction.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Greg.L

Airgead said:


> Using a bottle jack to provide power? What size jack do you use? How did you construct the pressing boards? Solid slabs or glued up panels?
> 
> I'm looking at building something similar... but less... ahh ...rustic. For next year. Given that all I will be doing is cider, the board/cloth type will be easier to make than a basket press and I suspect get better extraction.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Yes, I use a 5 tonne jack, people use up to 20 tonnes but you would need a better press than mine. Mine is a bit wonky but it does the job. Some people use 2 steel rods on each side for the uprights, and RSJs for the cross pieces. I just use plywood for the boards, painted with polyurethane paint, and mossie net for the cloths. It also works fine for grapes.

Greg


----------



## Greg.L

I pressed some more apples today. My Egremont Russet Turned out to be 24 brix, sg 1.102. That is right up there in wine territory. The sweet alford were 16.5 brix, 1.068 sg.


----------



## Greg.L

This is the egremont russet juice I pressed today, that is a wine hydrometer in baume, 14 be is equal to 25 brix or 1.108 sg. I didn't know apples could have so much sugar, they must have got a bit dehydrated.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

That's made me think. What effect does (assuming they don't rot) picking and leaving apples for 2-4 weeks do? Better/worse efficiency??


----------



## Greg.L

It depends on the apples. You can do a simple starch test with iodine, if there is still starch in the apples it may convert some to sugar, if the apples dehydrate it will increase the sg. The apples may get softer and easier to press, though if you are using a juicer that may mean more pulp. The acidity will go down.
In Europe it is standard to leave the apples a couple of weeks, they have more trouble with ripening and high acidity. Your apples need to be in good condition.


----------



## Sam England

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> That's made me think. What effect does (assuming they don't rot) picking and leaving apples for 2-4 weeks do? Better/worse efficiency??


That's actually what was recommended to me as the sugar concentrates and from memory I think you get better extraction when pressing because the cell membranes break down more easily. I've made cider for a few years now using a blend of our Golden Delicious and our pear to get some residual sweetness. The GD is too dry by a mile if you use it on its own, but was about right with 40% pear. I left a wheelbarrow of apples last year for 3 weeks after picking to ripen up. I got a lot higher SG, but as I was using a juicer it kept clogging up and I had a heap more pulp make it through to primary. It still dropped very clear, but I racked after about a week as the sediment was higher than the tap outlet!!
Won't be doing it this year though as some F'in kangaroos have taken a liking to the apple and pear tree leaves, punched holes through the bird netting and I've now lost all of the pears and the majority of the apples. :angry:
I also use pectic enzyme to stop hazing and potassium metabisulphite to kill off the wild yeasts before pitching.
Cheers,
BB


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## Ferg

Hi All,

First post here, cant believe how long it has taken me to find a good aussie forum like this about cider!
Have been 'scrumping' for a few years now but as you can all imagine am keen to keep expanding the empire..

Have one batch on the go at the minute, s.g. 1055 ph 3.5. Was a mix of prima, gala, golden delicious, pink lady and then some pears. Had about 40lts in total and two 25lt buckets, didn't fancy leaving that much head space in one bucket so I froze a batch and will use it again in a few weeks when I press the rest of the apples I have access to. Anyone any experience with freezing juice?

I plan on racking & cooling to try and stop fermentation at a fairly high level with this batch (s.g 1005-1010). I will then bottle and pasterise using this method: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

Anyway, good to have a place with lots of local info. thought I would share my set-up:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/member/28040-ferg/


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## komodo

Very interesting setup (just looked at your pics)
Where abouts (roughly) in melbourne are you and where are you sourcing apples from?


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## Greg.L

Ferg said:


> Hi All,
> 
> First post here, cant believe how long it has taken me to find a good aussie forum like this about cider!
> Have been 'scrumping' for a few years now but as you can all imagine am keen to keep expanding the empire..
> 
> Have one batch on the go at the minute, s.g. 1055 ph 3.5. Was a mix of prima, gala, golden delicious, pink lady and then some pears. Had about 40lts in total and two 25lt buckets, didn't fancy leaving that much head space in one bucket so I froze a batch and will use it again in a few weeks when I press the rest of the apples I have access to. Anyone any experience with freezing juice?
> 
> I plan on racking & cooling to try and stop fermentation at a fairly high level with this batch (s.g 1005-1010). I will then bottle and pasterise using this method: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/
> 
> Anyway, good to have a place with lots of local info. thought I would share my set-up:
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/member/28040-ferg/


That's a good setup, you're a lot neater than me. I like the scratter, but your fingers are a bit near. A drum scratter seems to be the way to go if you are good at making things.


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## Ferg

Hi Komodo,

I live in Richmond but do all the cider in Sth Gippsland where my wifes family are from. Both of her grandparents have about 10 apples trees in their gardens, I usually just get whatever they done eat plus I know a few roadside trees around the area too.

If you are looking for apples I have also got some from these guys: http://hazeldeanforestfarm.wordpress.com/apple-varieties/
A young couple are currently working there who mentioned to me last time round that they come down to melbourne all the time and would be happy to bring me down some more apples if I needed them. They are a little bit expensive at $2/kg but they are also organic if that floats your boat. i have their contact details at home that I could send you if you like.


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## Ferg

Greg.L said:


> That's a good setup, you're a lot neater than me. I like the scratter, but your fingers are a bit near. A drum scratter seems to be the way to go if you are good at making things.


Cheers Greg,

That photo was taken when the motor was switched off, I have a spare bit of mdf that I use as a lid when the motor is running. I found out the hard way I needed one when I was doing my first trial run - I ended up with a face full of apple bits and more about 5m up on the shed roof behind me!
That scratter made such a difference for me from the first year when I was bashing up apples in a bucket with a sledge hammer. It was relatively straight forward to build too. I can get through about 100kg in 30mins easy enough. The biggest pain is washing everything down afterwards.


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## komodo

**** me 100kgs in 30 minutes! Its certainly not there for spiders is it!
How many litres do you get out of 100kgs?


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## CosmicBertie

Im currently interested in making cider. My first foray will be using apple juice from the supermarket, but i was wondering what would be the weight of apples for a standard 23L batch? I know it probably depends on the juiciness of the apples, but im just after a rough idea.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Depends on juiciness of apples, what you're using to extract juice (juicer, press, etc).

I found with a juicer it's around 50% efficiency, give or take 10% depending on the apples.

So 40-50kg for this batch.


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## Greg.L

Cosmic Bertie said:


> Im currently interested in making cider. My first foray will be using apple juice from the supermarket, but i was wondering what would be the weight of apples for a standard 23L batch? I know it probably depends on the juiciness of the apples, but im just after a rough idea.


It depends on the apples and the press, somewhere between 40kg and 50kg will give you 23 L, a good press and juicy apples 35kg.


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## CosmicBertie

Wow. I guess I ought to try and find a few wild apple trees then....I dont suppose anyone knows of any around Sunbury? 

Oh, and whats the deal with picking apples from the side of a road? Is it ninja-style before anyone/cops get you, or is it a free-for-all?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Cosmic Bertie said:


> Wow. I guess I ought to try and find a few wild apple trees then....I dont suppose anyone knows of any around Sunbury?
> 
> Oh, and whats the deal with picking apples from the side of a road? Is it ninja-style before anyone/cops get you, or is it a free-for-all?


Here in Tassie (I'm a Brisvegan) I thought it was covert, so I did it at night. Something rustled the grass near a tree one night (every snake in Tas is poisonous), I defecated myself and I've done it daytime since.

If it's on a private-ish or business property, ask the people there. In Tassie - no one eats fruit and so when you see a tree with lots of windfall, ask - they usually don't care.


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## Greg.L

Roadside fruit is traditionally there for the taking if you don't cross the fence.


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## Ferg

Komodo said:


> **** me 100kgs in 30 minutes! Its certainly not there for spiders is it!
> How many litres do you get out of 100kgs?


haha yeah the motor is a bit of a beast!
Generally we have about a 60-70% effeceincy but my last batch was a bit less. Not sure if that was down to the apples as they were all quite small due to lack of rain or else we just didn't have the patience that we usually do.. I find with my press I can tighten the screw, leave it a few minutes and tighten again. I think we just couldn't be arsed waiting around for the last drop!


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## Greg.L

I found it very variable this year. Some apples were very sweet but only about 50% efficiency, others like sweet alford and grannies were about 70%, very juicy.


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## Hillbrewer

Greg.L said:


> My apples are looking good but the crop is much smaller than last year due to frost. At least a smaller crop means the apples ripen better, I'm hoping the sg will go above 1.050. I have heaps of seedling crab fruit this year so I will find out what the cider is like with lots of bitterness from crabs, they also keep the pH down which is good.


Hi Greg,
From what I've researched apple trees produce a decent crop every 2nd year with other years being quite light on fruit.


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## Greg.L

Hillbrewer said:


> Hi Greg,
> From what I've researched apple trees produce a decent crop every 2nd year with other years being quite light on fruit.


That's an old post. I have heard that some apple cultivars bear bi-annually, especially cider cultivars, but it doesn't affect me very much because of the problems I have with spring frosts. Most of my trees get frosted every other year which stimulates them to flower very heavily the next year. It is good to have a range of cultivars if you have the room so you get some apples most years. Also if you can let your trees grow big, even a light crop is a fair few apples. Birds also will thin the crop a lot.
Funny but 2012 was a cool year and there wasn't much bitterness in the crabs, this year was a lot warmer and there is a fair amount of bitterness in the cider, even though I probably used less crabs proportionately.


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## Hillbrewer

Good to know. I was working down in tas and tried to find side of the road apples to blend with assuming that a wild grown apples wound generally have higher bitterness. I had little success, although I found a number of apple trees, the trees bearing generally had sour fruit. Due to the quantity of apples on the ground I assumed they were ripe. Maybe they were cooking varieties.
I ended up making one small batch which finished primary fermentation 2 weeks ago it tastes dry and sour.


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## Greg.L

My cider tastes quite sour at the end of primary, but I pitch Malolactic fermentation culture which takes away the sourness. You can get natural MLF happening if you don't add so2 after primary. If your apples are high acid, MLF is the best bet. For the first couple of weeks after MLF the cider tastes pretty flat but then the apple flavour comes back and you should have a nice cider.

It is quite interesting following the different phases of a cider fermentation. In my initial fermentation I usually get banana/bubble gum aromas from the isoamyl acetate ester. it is sweet then sour as primary finishes. Then MLF starts, the sourness and isoamyl goes, but so does the fruitiness and any biterness becomes more obvious. Finally MLF finishes and the fruitiness comes back to balance the bitterness. For me at temperatures around 20-23C it takes about a month for all that to happen and the cider is ready to bottle condition.


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## Hillbrewer

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the info. I didn't add anything after primary so hopefully MLF is taking place. Ambient temp is 20 degrees so I'll leave it for a couple more weeks and then check on it.
Do you use nutrients in your primary? I have a cider fermenting with no nutrients which is going quite slow. Other than taking longer are there any other disadvantages for not using nutrients? I used fresh juice and wanted to keep it as natural as possible.


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## Greg.L

Adding nutrients is mainly to avoid the H2S smell, if you don't have any H2S you should be fine. I have never had H2S so I don't add nutrients. This year one of my late, high brix batches stalled with just a little bit of residual sugar, it is quite good just off-dry so it doesn't bother me. It still seems to be fermenting very slowly in the bottles, I don't think there is enough sugar to cause bottle bombs. The extra alcohol must have stressed the yeast and not quite enough nutrients to finish. Some craft cider makers aim to stall their cider by using fruit from low-nitrogen orchards.


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## Hillbrewer

Hi Greg thanks for the info.
I did some 'fart' smells during the first couple of days of ferment but they have now disappeared.


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## MashPaddler

Didn't get to make cider this year, caught up with renovations but am sampling the first of last years batch now, has a French cider taste, dry but not puckering. Pink ladies granny smiths and crabapples. In the middle of my cider press build, using a machine press as a foundation. Doing the box and boards out of recycled blackbutt timber, will post some progress photos shortly.


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## Airgead

Did my yearly cider batch over the weekend. 50kg of apples. Aprox 20% very ripe granny smith, 20% Sundowner and the rest Crips Pinks (better known as Pink Lady). Super ripe apples. The juice came in at 1.052. That means I'm heading for around about an 8% cider.

I filled 2 kegs. One is fermenting with CRU-05 which I have used before for cider, the other is fermenting with 71B which is my go to yeast for meads. I'm interested in the 71B as it can partially digest malic acid which may lead to a smoother cider. We'll see.

Both kegs sitting in the fermenting fridge at 15C.

Cheers
Dave


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## punkin

I do believe that's why the cru was reccomended to me, because of it's use to clear up malic acid.


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## Airgead

Ahhh indeed. I had forgotten that. Thats' the trouble with only making cider once a year.

I just checked the data sheet. It does indeed degrade malic as well. Interesting to see how the 71b and cru compare acid wise.


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## punkin

Always good to do a side by side.

I bought a 4l jar of a specific winemaking lactic acid blend last year and used a few ml of it. If you ever want to get hold of some to experiment give me a hoi, i have enough to last a handlfull of life times and would be good to recoup some of the cost.


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## Airgead

Thanks Punkin... I'll keep that in mind if this year's cider needs a little more acid to balance.

Ceers
Dave


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