# No-chill Beersmith Compensating?



## juzz1981 (15/9/10)

Hi,

I dont know if this has been coverered or if there is even a way to do it, but since im on a budget at the moment and dont have a chiller, im no-chilling but wanted to know if there is anything in beersmith that i can use to 'compensate' hop addition timing when using a cube to chill?

I just wonder because i made DrSmurto's Golden ale and it tastes great although i think it has too much amarillo flavour which i thought may be overdriven by the no-chilling....?

Thanks in Advance

Justin


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## bum (15/9/10)

The common method seems to be more about adjusting your process rather than beersmith. Calculate as normal then shift your additions by the time you feel works best for you. Commonly people seem to do this by removing 10 to 20 minutes from the addition time (i.e. a 30 min addition becomes, say, a 15 min addition). No hard and fast rules - you just need to work out what works for you.

It is usually stated that no-chilling reduces hop flavour so maybe you just need to look at adjusting the recipe down by adding less late hops. Or maybe you just don't like Amarillo? You wouldn't be the first.


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## juzz1981 (15/9/10)

bum said:


> The common method seems to be more about adjusting your process rather than beersmith. Calculate as normal then shift your additions by the time you feel works best for you. Commonly people seem to do this by removing 10 to 20 minutes from the addition time (i.e. a 30 min addition becomes, say, a 15 min addition). No hard and fast rules - you just need to work out what works for you.
> 
> It is usually stated that no-chilling reduces hop flavour so maybe you just need to look at adjusting the recipe down by adding less late hops. Or maybe you just don't like Amarillo? You wouldn't be the first.




Thanks Bum,

Amarillo does seem to me to have a 'flower/floral' taste/aroma to it... which is ok, but not to everyones taste.


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## reviled (16/9/10)

juzz1981 said:


> Thanks Bum,
> 
> Amarillo does seem to me to have a 'flower/floral' taste/aroma to it... which is ok, but not to everyones taste.




Yeah it does in small amounts, but when you start upping it and being heavy handed with the Amarillo itll give you massive mandarin citrus notes!! Yum :icon_drool2:


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## juzz1981 (16/9/10)

bum said:


> The common method seems to be more about adjusting your process rather than beersmith. Calculate as normal then shift your additions by the time you feel works best for you. Commonly people seem to do this by removing 10 to 20 minutes from the addition time (i.e. a 30 min addition becomes, say, a 15 min addition). No hard and fast rules - you just need to work out what works for you.
> 
> It is usually stated that no-chilling reduces hop flavour so maybe you just need to look at adjusting the recipe down by adding less late hops. Or maybe you just don't like Amarillo? You wouldn't be the first.




So with a recipe that has an additions @60min, @ 15min and @ 0 min.. should I then shift the 60min to 45min, 15min addition to 0min and the 0min to adding to the cube when racking from the kettle? 

As a rough starting point?


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## argon (16/9/10)

juzz1981 said:


> So with a recipe that has an additions @60min, @ 15min and @ 0 min.. should I then shift the 60min to 45min, 15min addition to 0min and the 0min to adding to the cube when racking from the kettle?
> 
> As a rough starting point?



Nah not quite... 

this is what i'd do to achieve the above hop schedule using no chill
60 mins = 45mins yes
15mins = hops into cube
0mins = hop tea/french press... pretty hard to achieve but can get close with a bit of steeping in a plunger


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## cdbrown (16/9/10)

Leave the 60mins as 60mins. Only adjust for the aroma and flavour hops not the bittering.


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## Siborg (16/9/10)

I have tried a couple of different things.

Start by entering the recipe intor beersmith and adjust the hops by either:

1. Take note of the IBU for each addition, add 15 mins to each hop addition on beersmith, and adjust the amount of hops added to achieve the desired level of IBUs. When you brew, make the additions at the usual times (ie. 75min addition = 60 min addition)

2. Brew as usual, but subtract 15 mins from the addition. Ie. 60 min, becomes 45 min, 20 min becomes 5 min, and flameout... well try the french press method: (as described to me by Brendo)

From about halfway towards the end of fermentation, take however much hops you want, and steep in a (clean) coffee plunger with 500mL of boiling water for 5-10 mins, plunge and pour straight into the fermenter. Pour another 500mL of boiling water into the coffee plunger, steeping for one minute this time, then straight into the fermenter. These become flavour and aroma additions. 

You can get away with just a bittering addition at 45 minutes when no-chilling. I have had the most success using the second method. I have doen a few the first way, and have found that the brews tend to be under-hopped. 

I just brewed an all cascade APA and, by memory I did a 45min (60), 0 min (15) addition during the boil and french pressed as described above for 5 mins and 1 min. It hit the level of hoppinness I was after perfectly IMO.


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## Siborg (16/9/10)

juzz1981 said:


> 0min to adding to the cube when racking from the kettle?


This is called cube-hopping. I'm yet to try it, but I have heard that it gives great results. Try it in a hoppy beer such as an APA, or IPA.

Bearing in mind, a cube hop addition will add a few extra IBU's to the brew, so maybe factor that in and decrease your bittering additions a tad.


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## under (16/9/10)

Im seeing it as another wives tale. Ive been no chilling for near a year and never changed a hop schedule. My beers aint to bitter. They seem fine.


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## WarmBeer (16/9/10)

juzz1981 said:


> So with a recipe that has an additions @60min, @ 15min and @ 0 min.. should I then shift the 60min to 45min, 15min addition to 0min and the 0min to adding to the cube when racking from the kettle?
> 
> As a rough starting point?


Me personally, I would do the following:
60mins - stays at 60 mins. You need to boil for at least an hour anyway, and the difference between 60min and 75mins bittering is SFA
15mins - move to flameout. I assume you are going to whirlpool, and let it rest for 10 mins prior to cubing
0mins - cube hop, or do a hop tea and add to the fermenter when you add the wort and yeast.


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## bum (16/9/10)

under said:


> Im seeing it as another wives tale.



I left my original reply deliberately vague as there is so much swing in how people report the effects of no-chilling and the above is the only one I'll disagree with. I'm not suggesting for a second that your beers aren't great, under. I'm sure they are. But I have recently done an APA that was _entirely_ cube hopped and there is most certainly bitterness extracted in the cube and the flavour and aroma seem under what I'd expect from a beer that used the same weight of hops late in the boil. No-chilling most certainly does have an effect but I'm sure it isn't anywhere near as great as its detractors might wish to suggest.


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## Phoney (16/9/10)

Siborg said:


> From about halfway towards the end of fermentation, take however much hops you want, and steep in a (clean) coffee plunger with 500mL of boiling water for 5-10 mins, plunge and pour straight into the fermenter. Pour another 500mL of boiling water into the coffee plunger, steeping for one minute this time, then straight into the fermenter. These become flavour and aroma additions.



I always thought hops were best utilized in at least 1.40 wort?


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## Siborg (16/9/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> I always thought hops were best utilized in at least 1.40 wort?


Quite possibly. Bearing in mind these are only flavour and aroma additions. You could run off some wort before pitching and boil it up and use that to steep your french press hops if you want. 

Hmm... Could be an experiment worth trying.


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## WarmBeer (16/9/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> I always thought hops were best utilized in at least 1.40 wort?


I think it is more that hops are most efficiently *isomerised* in 1.040 wort.

You're not wanting any further bitterness from isomerised alpha acids, but the flavour/aroma hop compounds


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## bum (16/9/10)

WarmBeer said:


> I think it is more that hops are most efficiently *isomerised* in 1.040 wort.
> 
> You're not wanting any further bitterness from isomerised alpha acids, but the flavour/aroma hop compounds


I agree that french pressing isn't about making a little beer so wort isn't necessary but I'm pretty sure plain water actually pulls more IBU than 1040 wort.


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## seemax (16/9/10)

In regards to utilisation (extraction of AA) - yes, but not necessarily in regards to aroma.



phoneyhuh said:


> I always thought hops were best utilized in at least 1.40 wort?




I've been cube hopping with good results, then dry hopping and french pressing for that little bit extra.


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## WarmBeer (16/9/10)

bum said:


> ... but I'm pretty sure plain water actually pulls more IBU than 1040 wort.


Was about to call shenanigans on you, but thought I'd do some research first. For some reason I thought there was an "inverse parabolic" relationship, with 1.040 being the optimum.

There ya go, learn something every day. Thanks, bum


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

bum said:


> I left my original reply deliberately vague as there is so much swing in how people report the effects of no-chilling and the above is the only one I'll disagree with. I'm not suggesting for a second that your beers aren't great, under. I'm sure they are. But I have recently done an APA that was _entirely_ cube hopped and there is most certainly bitterness extracted in the cube and the flavour and aroma seem under what I'd expect from a beer that used the same weight of hops late in the boil. No-chilling most certainly does have an effect but I'm sure it isn't anywhere near as great as its detractors might wish to suggest.




Hey bum, after finishing my keg of no chilled 10 min APA last night, for me personally, im not going to change my hop calc's for no chill. Done plenty of beers in no chill cubes, and never changed my hop calcs. I know everyone is different, and if it works for you, then, obviously it works!!. I agree fully with your last statement, the effect is much less ( to my taste no different ) than some may say.


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## bum (16/9/10)

I don't doubt for a minute that someone could turn out a technically faultless beer without altering their times but I'm not quite ready to believe that the beer turns out the same as if it were chilled. As I mentioned in my first post I reckon the best approach is if we all keep the issue in mind and work out what works best for us (our tastes, our preferred styles, our ingredients and our methods) - I don't think there is a one size fits all approach to this.

OT - Your keg has blown? Man, I've gotta give this bottling caper away asap. Mine aren't even carbed yet!


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

*I don't think there is a one size fits all approach to this.*. I agree 100% bum.

*OT - Your keg has blown? Man, I've gotta give this bottling caper away asap. Mine aren't even carbed yet! * haha yeah, poor beer didn't get a chance to even clear up!!


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## reviled (16/9/10)

bum said:


> OT - Your keg has blown? Man, I've gotta give this bottling caper away asap. Mine aren't even carbed yet!



Mate how can you still be bottling? Do yourself a favour and shout the missus a facial/massage/make up/hair do, then turn around and be all like "now that we spent all that money on you, its my turn"

:icon_cheers: Worked for me bro! The minister of finance never likes to open the old wallet unless they think theyre being pampered :lol:


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## Murcluf (16/9/10)

under said:


> Im seeing it as another wives tale. Ive been no chilling for near a year and never changed a hop schedule. My beers aint to bitter. They seem fine.


+1 had no issue either


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## reviled (16/9/10)

Murcluf said:


> +1 had no issue either



Take it from a reformed no chiller that there is a difference, and once you chill yourself you will be able to tell the difference yourself, but if you havnt tried both chilling and no chilling how will you know? You wont, youll just assume that the hop aroma in your beers is the way its supposed to be while not knowing that you could potentially be getting alot more bang for your buck!

Seriously, I had no issues when I was no-chilling for sure, nothing wrong with a bit of bitterness, but I personally enjoyed my beers alot more when I started using the chiller, im now getting cleaner hop flavours and alot more hop aroma!! :icon_drool2:


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

reviled said:


> Take it from a reformed no chiller that there is a difference, and once you chill yourself you will be able to tell the difference yourself, but if you havnt tried both chilling and no chilling how will you know? You wont, youll just assume that the hop aroma in your beers is the way its supposed to be while not knowing that you could potentially be getting alot more bang for your buck!
> 
> Seriously, I had no issues when I was no-chilling for sure, nothing wrong with a bit of bitterness, but I personally enjoyed my beers alot more when I started using the chiller, im now getting cleaner hop flavours and alot more hop aroma!! :icon_drool2:




I had been chilling for a few years when i started no chill, and i didn't notice a difference. Different strokes


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## reviled (16/9/10)

mje1980 said:


> I had been chilling for a few years when i started no chill, and i didn't notice a difference. Different strokes



Really? :blink: 

Thats interesting eh, answer me this then, do you not notice a lingering smell when you no-chill? This was something I picked up straight away the first time I used the chiller, after it had been on for like a minute or two I couldnt smell malt and hops everywhere, but when I no-chilled I could smell malt and hops lingering for hours afterwards!! Do you get that or nah?


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## Siborg (16/9/10)

The fact of the matter is that hops are still isomerized until around 70 something degrees IIRC. Oviously the rate of isomerization decreases, but once the temps reach around 70, isomerization reduces to practically zero. There was a decent article in the Aussie brewing edition of BYO that showed this in a graph which opened my eyes. It also depends on your climate. I mean, we say about 15mins is the extra time that hops will isomerize in the cube, but if its really warm, it may take longer and you may get more IBU's out of it. If its really cold, you probably won't notice as much of a difference, as it won't take as long for the wort to cool to around 70. 

Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact figures and a bit of googling only referred me to a scientific article that I had to pay for (AS IF). I'll dig up the article when I get home.


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## mje1980 (16/9/10)

Jeez, you're pushing the memory there haha. I dont think so no. Everything seemed to be pretty much the same. 

The first few brews i did were bitters, all simialr BU:GU to the beers i'd just brewed via chilling. The new, no chilled beers were calc'd as usual, and they came out fine, and i couldn't pick anything majorly different, so i kept the calcs the same. Havent needed to yet. 

I think there are more variables to it than just no chill/chill. Hop variety,boil time, wort gravity,mash times may also have an effect on perception of bitterness. My 10 min APA had 50g each cascade/columus @ 10 mins. At first i thought it was too bitter, and i'd change the calcs, but a few days in the keg changed my mind. Mind you, 40 IBU's in a 1.048 ale isn't exactly on the malty side hehe.

I hope you guys don't think im against the idea of changing hop calcs for no chill. Im not at all, just trying to get across that some people don't notice a difference, that's all.


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## reviled (16/9/10)

mje1980 said:


> I hope you guys don't think im against the idea of changing hop calcs for no chill. Im not at all, just trying to get across that some people don't notice a difference, that's all.



All good mate, it makes for interesting discussion :icon_cheers: 

I guess what it comes down to is perception, pretty much what Bum said, I mean, if you have two beers exactly the same excpet one is 40 IBU and one is 50, would you be able to tell the difference? Id like to think I could but really, I doubt it...

On top of that, ive had beers that seem extremely bitter, yet the IBU is rather low, and beers with horrendously high IBU that seem sweet!


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## Siborg (16/9/10)

reviled said:


> All good mate, it makes for interesting discussion :icon_cheers:
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is perception, pretty much what Bum said, I mean, if you have two beers exactly the same excpet one is 40 IBU and one is 50, would you be able to tell the difference? Id like to think I could but really, I doubt it...
> 
> On top of that, ive had beers that seem extremely bitter, yet the IBU is rather low, and beers with horrendously high IBU that seem sweet!


I've heard of a few reports from fellow brewers who've had a crack at Dr Smurto's golden ale and no chilled. It's an all amarillo hop schedule, and It leaves a really harsh bitterness. Now I've heard that amarillo can lend a harsh bitterness if over-hopped. Maybe with some of the other varieties, its not as noticable.


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## argon (16/9/10)

Siborg said:


> I've heard of a few reports from fellow brewers who've had a crack at Dr Smurto's golden ale and no chilled. It's an all amarillo hop schedule, and It leaves a really harsh bitterness. Now I've heard that amarillo can lend a harsh bitterness if over-hopped. Maybe with some of the other varieties, its not as noticable.



Yeah I think this is on the money I reckon hop variety is going to have an effect on perceived bitterness increase;

eg late no-chill hopping a bunch of Chinook (renowned for its bitterness IIRC 4* once called it the deathstar of bitterness) is going to give you a much greater perceived increase in bitterness than, say, late hopping with something quite smooth like Hallertau even if its to the same IBU. 

This may also explain why Ive experienced and heard from others that something like Nelson Sauvin, even hopped quite high to say BU:GU of 1, has a restrained perceived bitterness Rosss summer ale as an example of NS displaying this restraint.

The perceived bitterness increase could also work in another way that is unbalancing a beer out of style lets say I get an increase in bitterness when doing a big IPA it may push from 50 IBU to 60 IBU (or say BU:GU 0.9 to BU:GU 1.2) probably gonna think its bitter cause its meant to be and the difference is probably not too notable.

But then say I do an APA which is probably on the cusp of being unbalanced and pushes from 40 IBU to 50 IBU (or say BU:GU of 0.7 to a BU:GU 1) Even if Ive increased the same amount IBU in the 2 examples Ill notice it more in the NOW unbalanced style.


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## Phoney (16/9/10)

reviled said:


> Take it from a reformed no chiller that there is a difference, and once you chill yourself you will be able to tell the difference yourself, but if you havnt tried both chilling and no chilling how will you know? You wont, youll just assume that the hop aroma in your beers is the way its supposed to be while not knowing that you could potentially be getting alot more bang for your buck!
> 
> Seriously, I had no issues when I was no-chilling for sure, nothing wrong with a bit of bitterness, but I personally enjoyed my beers alot more when I started using the chiller, im now getting cleaner hop flavours and alot more hop aroma!! :icon_drool2:



Interesting. Im now seriously considering biting the bullet and buying a chiller and leaving behind this whole no-chill hop controversy once and for all.

Just one Q: do you chill, whirlpool, sit for 10 mins and then drain into your fermenter? Or whirlpool, sit for 10 and then chill? I would imagine this would affect your flavour/aroma too.


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## dug (18/9/10)

ahh, so this could explain the high bitterness in my latest beer. It has Nelson savin and galaxy hops, can't remember the recipe off the top of my head. Anyway I've first made and chilled it, now second time round I did it the lazy man stlye and no chilled. The no chill seems to have a higher IBU than the chilled version and is going to need some time in the keg before it reaches its best flavour. Unlike the chilled one which I could drink pretty much straight away.


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## warra48 (18/9/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Interesting. Im now seriously considering biting the bullet and buying a chiller and leaving behind this whole no-chill hop controversy once and for all.
> 
> Just one Q: do you chill, whirlpool, sit for 10 mins and then drain into your fermenter? Or whirlpool, sit for 10 and then chill? I would imagine this would affect your flavour/aroma too.



I have always chilled my brews with an immersion chiller.
My chill starts as soon as the boil is over. 
I used to whirlpool, and leave it for about 30 minutes before draining to the fermenter.

These days I drain as soon as I've completed the chill, but I use a hop sock in the fermenter to catch the crud instead. Then it's into the fermenting fridge with the fermenter. My TempMate is the duck's nuts for controlling fermentation temperatures.


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## tavas (18/9/10)

Siborg said:


> I've heard of a few reports from fellow brewers who've had a crack at Dr Smurto's golden ale and no chilled. It's an all amarillo hop schedule, and It leaves a really harsh bitterness. Now I've heard that amarillo can lend a harsh bitterness if over-hopped. Maybe with some of the other varieties, its not as noticable.



DOH! This might explain why my first crack at DSGA tastes like poo  . Really harsh bitterness. I can't detect any off flavours like solvents but the hop flavour smacks you in the mouth like a drunken footballer. I have been thinking it was water profile but perhaps its time to adjust hop schedule for no chill.


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## juzz1981 (2/11/10)

Siborg said:


> I have tried a couple of different things.
> 
> Start by entering the recipe intor beersmith and adjust the hops by either:
> 
> ...



With this method using a french press, could you siphon out 500ml or beer from the fermenter and boil this up?
That way in total you are not diluting the brew with 1Lt of water?


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## lordofthebottleshop (2/11/10)

Siborg said:


> I've heard of a few reports from fellow brewers who've had a crack at Dr Smurto's golden ale and no chilled. It's an all amarillo hop schedule, and It leaves a really harsh bitterness. Now I've heard that amarillo can lend a harsh bitterness if over-hopped. Maybe with some of the other varieties, its not as noticable.



I bottled up a no chill DSGA a few weeks back and I've had exactly this problem; It's got a very harsh bitterness which I hope will fade over time :unsure: . 

As a test, I used exactly the same grain bill and changed the hop for B Saaz which happened to have exactly the same AA%. It's still in the fermenter, but already there isn't any hint of the harshness I got out of the first batch, which makes me thing it's something about Amarillo as Siborg suggests...


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## matr (2/11/10)

Would you still need to compensate if you removed the hops from the wort before no chilling? What I mean is if you use a hop sock / bag whatever so the hop debris is not actually going into the cube.... or is it the actual oils extracted that continue to add bitterness & flavour?

Cheers, Mat.


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## Cocko (2/11/10)

I guess not a direct response to the OP but I thought it would fit in this thread.

A Response from TB some time back when I asked what temps do hops keep bittering to and how N/C'ing effects schedule etc..

Thirsty Boy said:

_The rate of isomerization drops off very quickly lower than 100.. but continues down to about 75 before it becomes basically insignificant. You have to remember though, that you have a long time at those sub boiling but still high temperatures. So what you miss out on in rate of change, you make up for in time for change to happen.

I have done a few experiments on this, both sensory and measuring IBUs in the lab; and my results suggest that adding Pellet hops loose into a cube (racked after whirlpool approx 90-95C) gives you a bitter quotient equivalent to adding the same amount of hops at 20-25 minutes from the end of the boil. Put em in a hop bag or tea ball, use flower hops or both... its going to be less, maybe significantly less. If you use a lot of IBUs worth of cube hops.. I suspect the utilization will also drop off. I have and know that others have tried; an all cube hop beer - calculated at 25mins equivalent... and the beer was under bitter. So if you were going to try that (it gives amazing flavour and aroma...) I would be thinking more along the lines of equal to 15mins in the boil.

I add pretty much any hop that isn't a straight bittering addition into the cube - this cuts the amount of bittering hop I need to use and gives really fantastic hop flavour plus a deep (although not intense) kettle hop aroma. IMO, you don't get the more volatile/resinous/perfumey aromas that you can get from a whirpool or hopback addition... the prolonged heat changes those compounds. 

I don't think you can replicate kettle hopping with dry hopping - they are different. So when I want that hopback/whirlpool type aroma, I find that a hop tea, added at 2/3rds attenuation does the trick. I add the hops to a coffee plunger, give them 1 minute contact with 500ml of boiling water - plunge and tip the water into the fermenter - then I add another 500ml of boiling water and give them 3-5 mins contact, plunge and tip.

The reasons for this method are - To emulate a hopback via

Actual contact with hot liquid
But short contact followed very quickly by rapid cooling.

So the Terpene fractions of the hop oils have a chance to interact with the heat and oxidise a bit, but the hydrocarbons have minimal (but some) chance to volatilize.

I add at 2/3rds through fermentation so that neither contact with the yeast nor C02 stripping has too much of a chance to drive off the aroma I went to so much trouble to make... but so there is a little of both of those things during the last part of active fermentation... which tends to smooth out any harsh or grassy characteristics. You could add the tea at the very end of fermentation.. but I would go for a longer steep time on the hops to smooth it out a bit, this would mean more hops to get the same level of aroma compounds in the beer. Or just cold conditioning the beer for an extra week or two._

Sorry, I can't find the thread but had the above saved on my notepad thingy...

And cheers to TB, great contributing member! :icon_cheers: 

Cheers


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## lordofthebottleshop (2/11/10)

matr said:


> Would you still need to compensate if you removed the hops from the wort before no chilling? What I mean is if you use a hop sock / bag whatever so the hop debris is not actually going into the cube.... or is it the actual oils extracted that continue to add bitterness & flavour?
> 
> Cheers, Mat.



I'm not 100% on that - I use a hop sock, so I don't get much debris into the cube.


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