# Polyclar "dust" In Bright Beer



## sink cut (30/6/10)

I recently have started using polyclar to clear my beer before kegging. I do not filter my beer and based on Info from various sources you can still get good results using Polyclar without a filter.

I have noticed that the last two times I have used polyclar it works a treat - after a few days the beer is very near bright at 1-2 degrees. My only concern is that if you study the beer VERY closely wtih a bright light behind it you can see what looks like millions of _tiny_ particles.These particles look suspiciously similar to the clould of dust that poofs up out of the Polyclar bag each time I open it.

Just looking at the beer you would think it was crystall clear. You have to really study with a bright backlight it to see this "dust". I have noticed this dust remains even after a couple of weeks of cold storage - untill the beer is all gone. Beer taste and apperance is otherwise excellent.

Has anyone else noticed this? Should we _really_ be using a filter with polyclar? Am I poising my self by drinking copious amounts of plastic dust?


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## bum (30/6/10)

For what beer is the optimum serving temp 1 to 2 degrees? Get your temps realistic and see if you have the same issues present.


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## Scruffy (1/7/10)

Polyclar works best at about one or two degrees above freezing when the haze is at its worst... (doesn't work too well when frozen - you'd be waiting a while for it to drop out...)
However, anyone who _drinks_ beer at 1 or 2 degrees C probably thinks Sizzler, Eagle Boys and Subway are at the very pinnacle of gastronomy.


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## bum (1/7/10)

Oh man. I miss Sizzler.

When I was 12 or whatever one of their soups was the best thing ever.

And that cheese bread!


My point remains that surely chill haze (if present) is going to be lessened at warmer (i.e. better) temps.


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## bcp (1/7/10)

bum said:


> Oh man. I miss Sizzler.
> 
> When I was 12 or whatever one of their soups was the best thing ever.
> 
> ...


So you're suggesting you think this is chill haze rather than polyclar, and to warm it up to eliminate that from the equation?

I researched this, and polyclar does get absorbed by people - less so through something like beer/wine, but it does occur. But there was nothing definitive to suggest it has negative affects on health. So for me it's just personal reasons that crystal clear beer isn't quite so important that i'm prepared to put more plastic into my body. But as i said, at the levels we use it the research doesn't suggest it's a problem. 

(Yet.)


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## Batz (1/7/10)

bcp said:


> I researched this, and polyclar does get absorbed by people - less so through something like beer/wine, but it does occur. But there was nothing definitive to suggest it has negative affects on health.
> (Yet.)




They said the same about DDT, asbestos etc etc.

Batz


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## bum (1/7/10)

bcp said:


> So you're suggesting you think this is chill haze rather than polyclar, and to warm it up to eliminate that from the equation?


 
Not exactly. I'm suggesting he _test_ to see if it is chill haze by warming it up.


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## bcp (1/7/10)

bum said:


> Not exactly. I'm suggesting he _test_ to see if it is chill haze by warming it up.




Fine distinction, but accurately made.


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## Thirsty Boy (1/7/10)

it probably just is dust... polyclar and/or otherwise.

Its not going to be chill haze is it?... what, given you have added polyclar to your beer so there wont be any chill haze, and the beer is clear except for the "particles" you can see, which isn't what chill haze looks like.

Just dust - which is going to be in any beer that isn't filtered. If its polyclar dust.. it wont hurt you anyway. If it bugs you, filter - apart from that don't worry about it.


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## sink cut (1/7/10)

Scruffy said:


> Polyclar works best at about one or two degrees above freezing when the haze is at its worst... (doesn't work too well when frozen - you'd be waiting a while for it to drop out...)
> However, anyone who _drinks_ beer at 1 or 2 degrees C probably thinks Sizzler, Eagle Boys and Subway are at the very pinnacle of gastronomy.




Good one guys  . 1-2 degrees is my CC temp. My serving fridge is about 4, meaning in the glass I am looking at 6-8, and yes, same dust present. Its just somthing I did not notice when I used Isinglass finings. I prefer Polyclar because it is easier to use and is odourless.


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## Bribie G (1/7/10)

Polyclar (PVVP) is used in all sorts of stuff like hair conditioners and as a filler in many capsules and tablets precisely because it is neutral to the human body, so no worries about eating some of the stuff. They even made a blood plasma replacement out of it in the Vietanm war IIRC. However I did get a very suspicious haze in a beer where I kegged the first 19L and bottled off the last runnings, it was hazy at all temperatures.

pic 1 = keg, pic2 = a bottle (the soft drink bottle)






It just stayed like that for a month until I tipped it. Only ever happened the once, and I would guess it was the Polyclar chucking some sort of a wobbly.


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## brewerben (1/7/10)

While most people on this forum would agree there's no point in consuming synthetic chemicals/products unless it's absolutely necessary (e.g. for medical reasons) there is very little to worry about with PVPP in beer as you've more than likely consumed much greater doses of it as a binder in tablets (as already mentioned) or from chemicals sprayed onto argicultural products you've consumed.

That said I probably wouldn't eat a handful of the stuff as it's likely to glag you up.

We can compare the dangers of PVPP to those of asbestos etc., but during the reign of asbestos as a building product there was already a lot of published literature saying how dangerous it was. I don't see this for PVPP - but am happy to be convinced otherwise if someone else has seen something. And hell anyone who's stood by the side of a road before asbestos brakelining was banned, or changed their own brake pads for that matter is probably in more strife than someone who drinks beer fined with PVPP.


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## Nick JD (1/7/10)

The alcohol will get you before the Polyclar does.


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## RetsamHsam (1/7/10)

sink cut said:


> Good one guys  . 1-2 degrees is my CC temp. My serving fridge is about 4, meaning in the glass I am looking at 6-8, and yes, same dust present. Its just somthing I did not notice when I used Isinglass finings. I prefer Polyclar because it is easier to use and is odourless.



Polyclar and Isinglass do different things. Polyclar is designed to remove chill haze proteins from the beer where as Isinglass will bind to any small particles of yeast/hop matter etc. to make them heavier and drop out of suspension.

This would be why you didn't notice these particles when you were using Isinglass


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## Batz (1/7/10)

brewerben said:


> We can compare the dangers of PVPP to those of asbestos etc., but during the reign of asbestos as a building product there was already a lot of published literature saying how dangerous it was.




I only used asbestos as an example, and when asbestos was first mined at Wittanoom there was no literature on the dangers of it nor the early days of it as a building product. It was some years later that this became available, and then it was it in US and not Australia. The point I was making is that more often than not we hear about wonderful new products only to find later they are damaging our health, think Teflon perhaps.

Now I imagine PVPP is OK but you never know, I will continue to use it anyway. The 25 years I spent in the mining industry will most probably kill me first.

Batz


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## sink cut (1/7/10)

RetsamHsam said:


> Polyclar and Isinglass do different things. Polyclar is designed to remove chill haze proteins from the beer where as Isinglass will bind to any small particles of yeast/hop matter etc. to make them heavier and drop out of suspension.
> 
> This would be why you didn't notice these particles when you were using Isinglass




Yes, good point. Even thought they both work for chill haze Isinglass may also clear up these little particles as well. I still prefer polyclar though as I think the beer tastes better andfresher for longer, and with isinglass I notice a slight off flavour.

I am open to believing that this "dust" is present in all unfiltered beer and polyclar just makes it stand out by making the beer clearer.


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## pcmfisher (1/7/10)

The dangers of asbestos were suspected a little before that.
From Wiki -- 
By the first century AD, Greeks and Romans had already observed, at least in passing, that slaves involved in the weaving of asbestos cloth were afflicted with a sickness of the lungs.[31]




Batz said:


> I only used asbestos as an example, and when asbestos was first mined at Wittanoom there was no literature on the dangers of it nor the early days of it as a building product. It was some years later that this became available, and then it was it in US and not Australia. The point I was making is that more often than not we hear about wonderful new products only to find later they are damaging our health, think Teflon perhaps.
> 
> Now I imagine PVPP is OK but you never know, I will continue to use it anyway. The 25 years I spent in the mining industry will most probably kill me first.
> 
> Batz


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## Scruffy (1/7/10)

sink cut said:


> Yes, good point. Even thought they both work for chill haze Isinglass may also clear up these little particles as well. I still prefer polyclar though as I think the beer tastes better andfresher for longer, and with isinglass I notice a slight off flavour.
> 
> I am open to believing that this "dust" is present in all unfiltered beer and polyclar just makes it stand out by making the beer clearer.



Right. Too much misinformation.

Lets clear this up (hahahaha...)

READ THIS.

Just a suggestion; clear some protein stuff up with Irish Moss towards the end of the boil,
Then try clearing your yeast with isinglass (or agar agar if you're brewing for your vegan girlfriend) at the end of fermenting,
Then clear some chill haze out with Polyclar - make the chill haze appear first by cooling, then it'll work..

Rack your beer off the dropped particulate matter (i hope you're doing this!)

Another solution (god, these puns are relentless!) is to cold condition for a few months...

HTH.

Edit; Can't believe I spelled You're: your...


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## brewerben (1/7/10)

Batz said:


> I only used asbestos as an example, and when asbestos was first mined at Wittanoom there was no literature on the dangers of it nor the early days of it as a building product. It was some years later that this became available, and then it was it in US and not Australia. The point I was making is that more often than not we hear about wonderful new products only to find later they are damaging our health, think Teflon perhaps.
> 
> Now I imagine PVPP is OK but you never know, I will continue to use it anyway. The 25 years I spent in the mining industry will most probably kill me first.
> 
> Batz



:icon_offtopic: 

Ha yeah, we've all done stuff in the past whether we know it or not that has exposed us to something that **might** kill us - but lets hope there's a few more beers before then... it's kinda interesting that you'd mention asbestos as both it and alcoholic beverages are class 1 carcinogens (the nastiest class) according to the various health departments of Australia. Someone posted a link to a Henry review submission on this forum a while back, which stated that.

In the winery I work at we had some filter pads that said on the packet "asbestos free"... thank god for that!


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## Batz (1/7/10)

pcmfisher said:


> The dangers of asbestos were suspected a little before that.
> From Wiki --
> By the first century AD, Greeks and Romans had already observed, at least in passing, that slaves involved in the weaving of asbestos cloth were afflicted with a sickness of the lungs.[31]




Bad luck they didn't observe what was happening to them while they were drinking out of their lead lined tankards hey?
But then they thought they were safe I suppose  Add lead to the list, poisoned lots of kids through their pencils as well.

Batz


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## Thirsty Boy (1/7/10)

Scruffy said:


> Right. Too much misinformation.
> 
> Lets clear this up (hahahaha...)



Well, actually isinglass does act in a subsidiary way to clear chill haze - the chains are long enough so that they have some areas of negative charge which can act to bind the polyphenol/protein complex and drag it out with the rest.

Primarily for yeast - but it _will_ help with chill haze in a minor way.

But - that's niggling. Your summary is correct. Carageenan for break material, Isinglass/gelatin/agar for yeast, PVPP for chill haze. Three different things for three different purposes.

TB


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## manticle (2/7/10)

Batz said:


> Add lead to the list, poisoned lots of kids through their pencils as well.
> 
> Batz



When was that?


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## Aus_Rider_22 (2/7/10)

Lead has never been used in pencils. Maybe for Egyptians but not for us. 

I don't know whether I have missed the sarcasm but some arguments that are off-topic are misleading. 

I use polyclar and has served me well. Finings + Polyclar makes for pretty bright and clear beer for fermenter, CC to keg.


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## bum (2/7/10)

I think Batz may have been speaking euphemistically in regard to birth defects?

Dunno if this was his intention (or true) but that is how I read it.


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## Aus_Rider_22 (2/7/10)

bum said:


> I think Batz may have been speaking euphemistically in regard to birth defects?
> 
> Dunno if this was his intention (or true) but that is how I read it.



My bad I missed the joke. 

It's pretty funny reading it again.


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## bcp (2/7/10)

(Ok, i'm no industrial chemist, so this is a conversation that is open to corrections... )

But it's not correct to say that polyclar is completely harmless. It's more correct to say that, if the manufacturer of your polyclar meets the standards (as per, EU health commission recommendations) of quantities of NVP, then in normal usage it should be quite safe.


*PVPP NOT THE RISK - NVP IS*
Polyclar (PVPP) contains residues of N-vinyl-2-pyrrolidone (NVP) monomer. How much is the critical question.
Toxicological data on NVP shows this substance to be "a non-genotoxic carcinogen by inhalation in rats and to have other toxic effects in other laboratory animal species by various exposure routes." [EHC European Health Commission - see below]. 
In other words, NVP is a carcinogen - and the report goes on to discuss that taken orally it also has a risk when the dose is sufficient.

*ABSORBED INTO THE BODY
*"Oral toxicokinetic studies with 14C labelled NVP in rats showed rapid absorption of the radiolabel and wide distribution throughout the body tissues, the highest tissue levels appearing in the liver (10% as against <1% in most other tissues). Most of the radioactivity (about 75%) was excreted in the urine, about 0.4% appearing in the faeces, and about 1% being found as 14CO2 (Digenis, 1990). There was considerable enterohepatic circulation (McClanahan et al., 1984)." [EHC] 
Ok, this is in quite high doses, and NVP in beer will be really really low, but it demonstrates that NVP is absorbed by the body.

*DOSES OF NVP IN BEER & WINE*
"The maximum residue of NVP from the use of PVPP in the clarification of beer and wine is estimated at 5 g/l of beverage, based on experimental technological data. Thus consumption of 2L of beer and wine/day may contribute an intake of up to 0.17 g/kg b.w/day of NVP for a 60 kg person. The Committee understands, however, that the Community Code of Oenological Practice and Processes limits the maximum content of free NVP in PVPP to 0.1%, which exceeds the proposed specification limit for NVP in PVPP _by about 100-fold and wishes to draw the attention of the Commission to this discrepancy _(European Commission, 2000)." [EHP - emphasis mine] Point being, the standards of various bodies globally cannot all be trusted!

*CONCLUSION OF THE REPORT
*"The use ...of PVPP as a processing aid for beer and wine remain acceptable, _provided the existing specifications for ...PVPP are amended to the currently proposed limit _for NVP residues of 10 mg/kg PVP or PVPP. ...The Committee notes that the manufacturer supplying the European Union market currently meets such a specification." [EHC - emphasis mine]

It's more correct to say that, given current data, the levels of consumption from beer & wine clarification purposes put it within safe limits - provided your manufacturer is following the guidelines for filtering out NVP. 

And of course they are!  

Reference (a little different to some studies i saw commissioned by the manufacturers):
http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out87_en.pdf


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/7/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Well, actually isinglass does act in a subsidiary way to clear chill haze - the chains are long enough so that they have some areas of negative charge which can act to bind the polyphenol/protein complex and drag it out with the rest.
> 
> Primarily for yeast - but it _will_ help with chill haze in a minor way.
> 
> ...


TB is right,but IMHO isinglass is "very" effective at removing haze but you have to chill the beer for the haze to form first then I binds all these haze's up and drops therm out.Try it and see, proof is in the eating.
GB


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## Kai (25/7/10)

Personally my guess is that if you have a polyclar suspension in your beer then at most you are going to become fractionally more regular.


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