# Homebrew Twang



## misfit (4/10/12)

My kits are getting better all the time,but they all have that home brew twang.Can the be beaten with kits or not????

Don't get me wrong my beers are more than just drinkable but they still have that mild home brew taste.
Bit more info,I have a brew fridge temp controlled @ 18c,extreme sanatization and all the good stuff.
But it always tastes that tiny bit homebrewish(new word for you all)
Cheers :chug:


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (4/10/12)

misfit said:


> My kits are getting better all the time,but they all have that home brew twang.Can the be beaten with kits or not????
> 
> Don't get me wrong my beers are more than just drinkable but they still have that mild home brew taste.
> Bit more info,I have a brew fridge temp controlled @ 18c,extreme sanatization and all the good stuff.
> ...




Try a mini-mash (heaps of info on this site) and a small boil of hops. Download some free software "brewmate" and work out your IBU's and throw away your kit yeast and use a decent yeast at a suitable temp. 

P.S. what kits are you brewing??


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## Diesel80 (4/10/12)

Replace the Kit Tins and Malt Tins with Dry Malt Extract.

Some have said this removes 'that homebrew taste'.

Some believe it is attributed to the tin, storage in the tin, but there is nothing definitive I could find in my searches for the answer.

From the "Can to the Man" is a quick way to make reasonable beer. 

Working from unhopped malt extract is going to require a little more work / time and possibly equipment.
Note: A small step up from this extra work and you are A/G brewing anyway, adios kit twang.

I made i think 2 brews with DME, and they were very nice, can't recall if twang was present. Watch out for boil overs during the boil on the stove in a small pot!! LOL the memories , chaos it was.

Cheers,
D80


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## kelbygreen (4/10/12)

I got it in kits, kits and bits, extract and partial (although I done one briess all malt brew once and it didnt have it, but the cost is a great deal more) AG none. 

It might come out with age and it prob does but with kegs and AG I am usually drinking a beer that was put down 2 weeks ago lol So with kits and extract they prob did not have the time for the flavor to melo or I am super sensitive to it. 

I lie I made a coopers euro lager fermented with kit yeast at 12deg for 3 weeks CC for 3 weeks and cant remember how long it was in the bottle but a while and it still is one of the best beers I made to date. 

I make beer to drink and that I like but I dont give them the time they need and I will admit it first up but I am drinking it and found styles and process to suit quickest grain to brain turn over lol


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## dammag (4/10/12)

This is the kit brew I am drinking at the moment. ie RIGHT NOW

Coopers Pale Ale kit
1 KG LDME
300 gm crystal
Cascade 20gm @ 20 min
Citra 12 gm @ 20 min
Cascade 20 gm @ 0 min
Cascade and Citra 20 gm each dry hopped day 4
US-05 yeast.

Steep crystal in 3 litres 70C water for 30 min. strain into another pot and sparge? with another litre of 70 - 80C water.

Add 300 gm LDME and bring to the boil. Add hops as per recipe. Cool down and add to fermenter with water (some refrigerated) to get 23 litres at about 20C. Pitch rehydrated yeast. Place in brew fridge for 10 - 14 days. Bottle and start enjoying after a week or two.

The hops fade fast so I'd say you could add more late hops than this and maybe a bit more crystal.

Definitely no twang in this.


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## Markbeer (4/10/12)

Hi

Yes, a Fresh Wort Kit.

So quick and easy and no twang. 

With an appropriate yeast for the style.




misfit said:


> My kits are getting better all the time,but they all have that home brew twang.Can the be beaten with kits or not????
> 
> Don't get me wrong my beers are more than just drinkable but they still have that mild home brew taste.
> Bit more info,I have a brew fridge temp controlled @ 18c,extreme sanatization and all the good stuff.
> ...


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## Danhutch333 (4/10/12)

I had some similar issues.

Moving away from the kit yeast helped a lot. US-05 or W34/70 (depending on your style) made a big difference.

I'm yet to steep some grains but using malt extract has also had great results for me.


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## Nick JD (4/10/12)

Twang is in the can.


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## roverfj1200 (4/10/12)

You can hop it out. And the better the kit the less twang. A good slow ferment helps as well. Yeah and ageing for a bit longer.

Extract and its all gone..

Cheers.


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## JaseH (4/10/12)

Full boil, DME or LME with hop additions and steeped spec grains was the only extract brew I did that had none of the twang. I reckon the full boil was the trick.


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## mwd (4/10/12)

this comes up as a question quite often Link to past thread. I get the homebrew twang from all kits and bits no matter what you put in it. The least chance of twang is brewing Fresh Wort Kits.

Not sure what causes it but I think yeast left in the brew has something to do with it. I much prefer Coopers beer if the yeast has not been resuspended.

I can honestly say I have never yet brewed a kits and bits that has been better than any of the Craftbrewers commercial offerings. 
If I could get anywhere near something like SN Torpedo I would be more than happy but I doubt it will ever happen even using the correct hops.


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## Bribie G (4/10/12)

Malt extract is really similar in production methods to evaporated / condensed milk and spray dried milk powder, compared to fresh milk. Unfortunately it comes down to that. You can get an approximation of the AG taste but you don't quite get there. Liquid malt extract seems to be the villain, spray dried isn't as bad for the twang, but you always face the same problem. For example if a local Coffee Barista Bar decided to switch to powdered milk and condensed milk in its offerings, how long would they remain in business. 

It is possible to brew very palatable beers using M.E. and I recently tried some excellent brews made by Aydos, but they were very hop driven and this plastered over the cracks. Aydos has now gone AG. 

Another way of getting you 90% of the way there is to use a very bland kit such as Cerveza or Canadian, and layer it with steeped grains, extra hops and a good yeast.


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## brettprevans (4/10/12)

Good work tropical for posting link. Search and ye shall find 

Homebrew = twang or kits = twang is bullshit. 
Under par brewers, brewing regiems, bad advice, old ingrediants fine but the location of your brewing ie at home has little to do with tasye. Its ingrediants, methodology and skill. If u know how to brew u can make killer kits. 

Gippsland brewery had massive diacytal issues. Common rookie mistake. They are a proper brewery and screwed up for yeats. Being at home has nothing to do with it.

This is an old topic/argument that comes up all the time. 

Learn and your brews will blossom. There is lots of info on hete about brewing at all sorts of levels. Have a search and look round and youll find heaps of info. Get a few good brew books as well.


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## Nick JD (5/10/12)

If you're an AG brewer, and have been for a long time, and have got temp control fermenting setups, and highly-refined yeast handing and selection knowledge...

...go get a can of Coopers Lager, 500g of dextrose and 500g of LDME and a pack of US05 and ferment it at 18C.


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## pcmfisher (5/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> If you're an AG brewer, and have been for a long time, and have got temp control fermenting setups, and highly-refined yeast handing and selection knowledge...
> 
> ...go get a can of Coopers Lager, 500g of dextrose and 500g of LDME and a pack of US05 and ferment it at 18C.




Yeah? and?.........


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## dammag (5/10/12)

I don't think there's a problem with liquid kits/extract as long as it is say less than 6 months old.

I know what the twang tastes like, I used to make plenty of twangy beer 20 years ago, but I haven't had a problem recently, even when hops aren't covering up any bad tastes.

I'm not saying kits and extract make AG quality beer but I think they make good beer if used properly. There are so many parts of the brewing process to fine tune and practice that there is heaps of room for improvement in the basic brew.


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## Nick JD (5/10/12)

pcmfisher said:


> Yeah? and?.........



It doesn't taste like AG beer. Why? 

What are the characteristics that differentiate it from your AG beer? 

What are the origins of these characters?

Why is it that if you do a mini boil with some hops, and replace the kit can with plain malt extract does it improve significanty?

I've done all this. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I know which ingredient I'm not putting in my beer anymore ... the hopped can of goop.


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## brettprevans (5/10/12)

the other 'twang' people tend to attribute to Kit & Kilo is a result of using lots of table sugar and high brewing temps. results in a cidery, sometimes metalic twang, esp if ingrediants are old.


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## misfit (5/10/12)

Thanks for all the comments guys,plenty to think about.Keep them coming but I think it may be time for AG and THANKS to Nick JD for all the info you have posted about easy AG it give all newbies a good starting point to work from.
Cheers


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## Parks (5/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> It doesn't taste like AG beer. Why?
> 
> What are the characteristics that differentiate it from your AG beer?
> 
> ...



I did the exact same thing about a year ago. I thought, $10 - why the fk not try it again, just to see.

I took 2 mouthfuls, removed the keg from the fridge and tipped it into the gutter.


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## Nick JD (5/10/12)

I can make a very drinkable kit beer. I just can't ever make it not taste like kit beer, and if I ever can - I won't need to do all this silly mashing shit.


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## Impy (5/10/12)

I've recently switched to AG so i'm dealing with the teething issues of that (3rd brew seems to be ok) but before that I was trying to eliminate the homebrew twang of my extract beers. I made both kits and unflavoured extract + hops & speciality grains.

From a bit of online research my best guess and best improvement came down to the liquid extracts being the problem. Switching my recipes to be just DME in stead of LME + DME made a HUGE improvement. 

The best guess at a reason for this is that even though the liquid wort is packaged cleanly and is still professionally made and quality wort when it gets tinned, it's not chemically inert. Being liquid it's completely free to do whatever chemical ageing that may happen. 

DME on the other hand has the preservative benefit of being a dry powder. There is no liquid to assist in chemical reactions. 

Give it a go and see what you think. Just make a middle of the road pale ale with DME, speciality grains and a simple hops schedule and see if it gets rid of the twang for you.


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## wbosher (5/10/12)

Impy, you got any simple example recipes?


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## Feldon (5/10/12)

Another experiment to try and isolate the cause of homebrew twang might be to try and make an all grain batch with twang.

Split an all grain batch of wort out of the mash tun into halves. 

One half gets boiled with hop additions as normal (60 mins or whatever) and no-cilled in a sealed container. The other half gets the same treatment but gets reduced, as far as possible without scorching, down to a thickish kit-like syrup. 

Leave both at room temp for a month or so for chemical reactions to take place.

Then ferment both having first reconstituted the thick wort with water to same volume as the other sample.

Taste test side by side.


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## dammag (5/10/12)

Funnily enough, when I was making a curry the other day, toasting whole spices and grinding them myself I had an aha moment and realised why I will be going AG. The only problem is grinding and cooking your own spices is easier than mashing 5 KG of grain and boiling the resultant wort. Even my big hotplate is broken on the stove!


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## Nick JD (5/10/12)

Feldon said:


> Another experiment to try and isolate the cause of homebrew twang might be to try and make an all grain batch with twang.
> 
> Split an all grain batch of wort out of the mash tun into halves.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm, this is interesting. Very interesting. I see a challenge. Can we fuk it up! I say, YES WE CAN!

Although, I did once have to much of a friend's fooony cigarette once and fell asleep and almost made goop while boiling wort for hours and hours and it was actually really very good - but - I didn't let it get old...

Hmmmm.


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## stakka82 (5/10/12)

I made kits for over 2 years (at least 50 batches) and all had the twang to various degrees. 

I did about 10 dry extract brews inbetween the kits and going AG and none of them had the twang, one of those beers remains in my top 5 brews to date.

My brewing 'skill level' was no different in between making my last kit beer and my first all grain.

I second that 'its the can'.


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## slash22000 (5/10/12)

Now, I'm not a beer expert or anything but I'd like to think I've consumed my fair share of different beers over the years.

I make kit beers exclusively, which may be why, but I don't understand what this "twang" is? I can sincerely say that every beer I've ever made from a kit has been very tasty, except the very first, in which I somehow managed to kill my yeast.

Can anybody describe the "twang"? I have a glass of my "Kit" beer in my hand right this moment. I'm open to suggestion. 

Alright, I've had quite a number of glasses this night, but this is the freshest one!


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## Crusty (6/10/12)

slash22000 said:


> Now, I'm not a beer expert or anything but I'd like to think I've consumed my fair share of different beers over the years.
> 
> I make kit beers exclusively, which may be why, but I don't understand what this "twang" is? I can sincerely say that every beer I've ever made from a kit has been very tasty, except the very first, in which I somehow managed to kill my yeast.
> 
> ...



Are you taking the piss or are you being serious?
If you are being serious, have a taste of an All Grain beer made by someone in the know & see if you can pick the difference.
Since going All Grain about 5yrs ago, I look forward to getting home & having a couple of beers but when I was doing kits, I preferred to just go & buy a carton of something from the bottle shop. My mates shared the same view & often asked me how I could drink that kit beer, in all honesty, it was pretty ordinary. The same circle of friends are still here but have increased in numbers & often ring up or drop in un-announced for trivial stuff, of course they get a beer.
The taste difference is very obvious. Cidery, plastic like is what my kit beers used to taste like.
At the end of the day, if you are happy drinking what you make, that's all that matters.
Cheers


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## Bribie G (6/10/12)

Your tastebuds change as well. I've been mothballed since August due to my fast approaching move and I bought a couple of slabs of Henninger for $30 each. When I was brewing, Henninger and especially Oettinger seemed very Megaswilly, not as bad as VB, but bland and boring despite being Reinheitsgebot standard. 

Now even after a few weeks, a Henninger tastes excellent - the malt shines through, there's that lovely hit of noble hops as I pop the cap and it tastes just like I remember German beers from the old days, although perhaps a little less hoppy. 

It will be interesting to see how my tastebuds react to my first Moby Wheat brew that will be first cab off the rank in a couple of weeks.


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## kelbygreen (6/10/12)

yeah I got a carton of oettinger sitting in the fridge for if I run out of beer and I must say after drink PA and hoppy beers for months straight I cracked one of them and my face screwed up in disgust lol I used to live on the stuff, as you say after a few it grows on slowly but the first taste was like WOW thats no good


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## altstart (6/10/12)

I started bewing kits in 1977 and I was happy with the results. I tasted my first AG beer in 2005 at a brew day at Ross's place and the difference was staggering almost an epiphany. I immediately went into AG full bore. My first attemtps were disasters but over the years experience gained and the addition of a herms system and the control of mash PH have produced the results I wanted. There is no comparison between Kit beers and AG brewed beer.
Cheers Altstart


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## pcmfisher (6/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> It doesn't taste like AG beer. Why?
> 
> What are the characteristics that differentiate it from your AG beer?
> 
> ...



Totally agree!


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## pcmfisher (6/10/12)

slash22000 said:


> Now, I'm not a beer expert or anything but I'd like to think I've consumed my fair share of different beers over the years.
> 
> I make kit beers exclusively, which may be why, but I don't understand what this "twang" is? I can sincerely say that every beer I've ever made from a kit has been very tasty, except the very first, in which I somehow managed to kill my yeast.
> 
> ...




You may like your beers but, do offense intended, I would just about guarantee that if you were to taste a good all grain beer or even one made with unbittered malt and fresh hops you would understand what kit twang is in an instant.

I was under the same delusion for years!


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## Yob (6/10/12)

'twang' can certainly be masked with enough effort

Ive swapped kits and bits at case swaps against AG brews and got some very nice feedback indeed HERE and HERE 

and my favorite kit (& bits) beer review HERE

I would have to say though that the brewdays for these were as long as an AG Brew session but only half as much fun.

I rate Kit beers (if handled correctly) up there with AG but I found that they dont really hold up well with age, lighter APA's and such anyway.. It will be ineresting to see if the AG's I produce will hold up better.

Yob


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## yum beer (6/10/12)

slash22000 said:


> Now, I'm not a beer expert or anything but I'd like to think I've consumed my fair share of different beers over the years.
> 
> I make kit beers exclusively, which may be why, but I don't understand what this "twang" is? I can sincerely say that every beer I've ever made from a kit has been very tasty, except the very first, in which I somehow managed to kill my yeast.
> 
> ...



I find it hard to believe you don't notice the twang, but to give an example,
I have moved to AG for my last 7 batches from doing kits, I have a mate still doing kits who hadnt tried an AG yet.
He came round one Saturday to watch a brew day and brought along a longie of his latest kit pilsener, his best beer to date that he was wrapped with. He poured a glass each and tried it out, straight away there was that twang, the beer was nice enough but twang.
After his brew I cracked one of my AG pilseners, he nearly fucken died.
Yes, we convince ourselves that our kit beers taste good and that the wierd taste is not that bad and hell we even get used to it, drink em fast and dont take the time to taste them and you dont really notice the twang, but end of the day, until you swirl a good swig of AG brew around your mouth you just dont know how big the difference is.


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## Impy (8/10/12)

wbosher said:


> Impy, you got any simple example recipes?



Sorry for the late reply. Didn't log on all weekend.

A simple pale ale might be something like (just off the top of my head)

3kg Pale Unhopped DME
200g Crystal Malt

Boil volume 10L
20g Chinook @ 60
30g Cascade @ 15
30g Cascade Dry Hop into fermenter before pitching yeast.

Yeast: US-05 Dry yeast

Ferment volume 23L

Instructions:
- Line pot with muslin cloth and steep crystal malt in 10L 70C water. 
- Remove and strain grain using muslin cloth.
- Bring to boil and start hop schedule. 
- When hop schedule is finished cool liquid (I put my boil pot into my bath with some ice water)
- add liquid from pot into fermenter & top up with cold water to 23L
- Dry Hop
- Pitch yeast when liquid is ~25C

Also check the Recipe DB on this site. It has some good extract recipes.


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## bum (8/10/12)

Yob said:


> 'twang' can certainly be masked with enough effort...
> 
> ...but I found that they dont really hold up well with age


I agree completely. When I first started brewing I swore I wouldn't go AG (seemed like too much work for the same or similar output) but pretty soon I realised the twang wasn't something that I was doing and wouldn't go away with experience. So I worked pretty hard at covering it up. I can confidently say I did this a couple of times but as the beer faded/mellowed (as all beers must) the twang always came to the fore. Spending 3 hours and maybe $40+ on a kit beer started making going AG look pretty attractive. Turns out the process is as enjoyable as the final product (from my brewery anyway...)


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/10/12)

I can't drink Oettinger anymore, for the record.

Tricking up a kit beer, without even trying to get rid of twang, starts to render the economic benefits of homebrewing nonexistent. A good batch of AG is about half the cost.

I gave a bronze medal beer to a mate, who raved about it. I criticised the beer he was raving about and said the judges nailed the problems correctly. He's a Fat Yak drinker and was gobsmacked that I was so critical.

That's what good AG does. You don't put up with average beer, as in one's kit days. Instead you critique harshly what are reasonable beers to the above average palate.

Goomba


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## slash22000 (8/10/12)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> A good batch of AG is about half the cost.



Unless you're stuck in Darwin and it costs $70+ for grain delivery per batch. :huh:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/10/12)

slash22000 said:


> Unless you're stuck in Darwin and it costs $70+ for grain delivery per batch. :huh:


This is where you'd need to buy by the sack.

I guess it'd be like that with a lot of things in the further reaches of this great brown land.


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## tanked84 (8/10/12)

Fresh wort kits don't seem to have this twang. Would they be considered all grain or partial?


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## Crusty (8/10/12)

tanked84 said:


> Fresh wort kits don't seem to have this twang. Would they be considered all grain or partial?



All Grain.


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## kelbygreen (8/10/12)

$70+ for a batch wow! I put a batch on the weekend cost $36 for 42lts into fermenters thats for 9.82kg of grain and 99g of hops. (I had the yeast already) and OG was 1.049 so it was a full strength (prob about 5%).

Feel sorry for you


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## Droughtmaster (8/10/12)

I brew with a all grain Bruimeister system that was my introduction to all grain beer .
before that all i did was coopers kits .
when i get low on beer and cant be fagged ill put down a coopers sparkling ale with there light liquid malt works for me mever had a homebrew twang with that combination.i have tasted that twang that seems to follow brewerers but i thought that was long gone


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## Droughtmaster (8/10/12)

kelbygreen said:


> $70+ for a batch wow! I put a batch on the weekend cost $36 for 42lts into fermenters thats for 9.82kg of grain and 99g of hops. (I had the yeast already) and OG was 1.049 so it was a full strength (prob about 5%).
> 
> Feel sorry for you



geeze costs me that if i buy grains and yeast for a 25 ltr batch


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## kelbygreen (8/10/12)

yeah well I buy aussie malt mainly and the LHBS does it cracked about the same price as bulk buying a bag so I cant complain I dont have to buy a mill and the quality is good but for a comp or what not maybe go with a grain from the country the style is from but you can build it up to what you want anyway. 

give you a idea last recipe: 

Pilsner (MEU Au) 8.280kg - $22.77
Wheat Malt (AUS)	1.230kg - $4.17
Cara Hell (GER) 306g - $1.18


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## fletcher (8/10/12)

well i can safely say, after doing my first kit brew and subsequently now tasting it (and the twang); and after reading these comments and many other posts about how easy and workable BIAB is, i'm sold. consider me a believer. my second brew will be a BIAB and i'm so pumped for it.


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## dammag (9/10/12)

Are there any concerns using polyester for the brew bag? It is curtain material?, not food grade?


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## Crusty (9/10/12)

fletcher said:


> well i can safely say, after doing my first kit brew and subsequently now tasting it (and the twang); and after reading these comments and many other posts about how easy and workable BIAB is, i'm sold. consider me a believer. my second brew will be a BIAB and i'm so pumped for it.



You'll love it.




dammag said:


> Are there any concerns using polyester for the brew bag? It is curtain material?, not food grade?



Swiss Voile is what you're after.
Easier to just buy this & get one of these for tossing your hops into.


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## grantsglutenfreehomebrew (9/10/12)

I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang. 5g of sugar as a primer is the equivalent of another 300g of sugar in your brew. If you've gone a kit and 1 kg of sugar that's 1.3kg of tang. Like some others have said good yeast and constant brewing temps (preferably at the lower end of the scale) are good but remember when conditioning bottles you are still brewing. So try not to oxygenate the beer when bottling, prime with LDME or as I do by saving 2-300g of LME from recipe. Mix with one cup of water and boil for 10 mins. Add 5ml of this per 330ml stubby. I use a syringe. Do not shake when lid is on. Bottle condition at same constant temp as primary fermentation. Hey presto. No tang.


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## Parks (9/10/12)

grantsglutenfreehomebrew said:


> I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang.


I disagree with this whole-heartedly.

Sugars will certainly give a certain flavour but IMO the twang comes 100% from the processed wort, AKA goop. I have also detected a similar taste making a 100% extract batch with LDME, not as strong but it's there.


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## bignath (9/10/12)

grantsglutenfreehomebrew said:


> I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang. 5g of sugar as a primer is the equivalent of another 300g of sugar in your brew. If you've gone a kit and 1 kg of sugar that's 1.3kg of tang. Like some others have said good yeast and constant brewing temps (preferably at the lower end of the scale) are good but remember when conditioning bottles you are still brewing. So try not to oxygenate the beer when bottling, prime with LDME or as I do by saving 2-300g of LME from recipe. Mix with one cup of water and boil for 10 mins. Add 5ml of this per 330ml stubby. I use a syringe. Do not shake when lid is on. Bottle condition at same constant temp as primary fermentation. Hey presto. No tang.



I completely disagree with most of this.
Using sugar in brewing certain styles not only does not create twang, it's often called for as part of the style guidelines for certain beers. 
Anything (ok, most things) with an Australian style guide, will have a relatively high sugar %, and if you don't use it, it won't get you close to certain beers' characteristics, both good ones and bad ones.

Using sugar doesn't mean you'll get twang, in the same way as not using it, doesn't mean you'll avoid twang.

Also, not trying to nitpick, but i wouldn't suggest going for the lower end of the fermentation temp range for a yeast is always a good idea either. Go too low into the range and a lot of yeasts will struggle. As soon as yeast struggles to stay awake and eat, they can throw or cause some unwanted (or intentional for certain beers) flavours to develop. I understand your intention about the yeast temp, just thought it might be relevant to eliminate as many off flavours, to suggest that it's not always a good idea to go the lower end. 

IE: from memory....i think the quoted operating range for US05 can go down to 14 or 15 but i wouldn't use it there. 18-20 seems to be generally accepted as the best range for that yeast. The upper working end i think is around 22-24 (once again, from memory).
Often middle of the range is best for the yeast to be comfortable.


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## Nick JD (9/10/12)

I made an AG Belgian Saison last summer with 35% sucrose in it and fermented it between 30 and 35C. 

No twang. Freakin delecious.


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## Impy (9/10/12)

grantsglutenfreehomebrew said:


> I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang. 5g of sugar as a primer is the equivalent of another 300g of sugar in your brew. If you've gone a kit and 1 kg of sugar that's 1.3kg of tang.




I disagree.

Firstly, I think it would be INCREDIBLY unusual for someone to use plain table sugar in a kit beer (the instructions these days say to use DME)

Plus, sugar creating the twang is an old myth, it quite simply isn't true (especially not carbonation drop qty). Plenty of beer styles have relatively large quantities of plain sugar in them with no twang being present.


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## JDW81 (9/10/12)

grantsglutenfreehomebrew said:


> I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang.



Really?

I've bottled my last few brews with table sugar and none of them have any tang what so ever. I even used carb drops in my last hefeweizen as I was being lazy (and don't mind the extra fizz for that style) and it is the best one I have made by a long shot.

I even did a side by side test of the same beer with one batch carbonated with LDME and the other with sugar and there is no discernible difference.

Cheap kits and poor brewing/handling/sanitisation techniques will give you a tang. Adding sugar to a brew in levels that are appropriate to style or for carbonation purposes will most definitely not.


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## RobboMC (10/10/12)

Sad to say but cheap kits and poor brewing practices usually exist both in large amounts for new brewers. I remember the first ever beer that I made, flat twangy and awful. 

After many years it's fair to say I'm a kits n bits n bits n bits n bits brewer. I use high end kits like Thomas Coopers or Muntons, commercial dried yeast and lots of specialty rains and hops. I'm sure the brew comp judges can identify the liquid extract source of my malt, by few others can pick it amongst the rest of the flavours.
Use the best kits you can get, the freshest malt possible, and add plenty of hops. You can make really great 
beer without going AG. 

I don't have time to do a decent hop boil some brew nights, and have even sometimes gone back to straight kit and kilo in desperation of having nothing to drink. An AG set-up would be nice, so would a Ferrari in the garage, we can't all have evrything.


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

Just read this, going to revive as I have done 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp, and done the following experiment on them all...

I bottled 12 330ml bottles, 4 primed with carbonation drops, 4 with caster sugar, and 4 with brown sugar....

my first beer was horrible... rocket fuel... didn't take notes but holy hell, never doing a mangrove jacks blonde again...

my second 2 were identical coopers sparkling ale with a 'cold pack'/brew enhancer fermented at 25-30+C primed the same way.

I just had the first taste of my second batch (at 10 days),
drank a 330 of each carbonation drop, caster sugar, and brown sugar primed bottles... and here is my conclusion for both batches (took notes on the first batch)..

The carbonation drops have a definite twang in comparison to both other priming methods... its terrible, I can even smell the twang.
The caster sugar is slightly better, not as much fruity punch on the tongue, and less smell
and the brown sugar is actually quite enjoyable, but still there is a twang (at 10 days no surprise)

now... before I jumped to this conclusion, on separate days on the last batch I drank them in different orders to eliminate the 'pissed now, its all good, keep em coming' variable off the table. I still came to the same conclusion.

*shrugs* I believe priming medium does make a difference, as a result of this controlled experiment, even though I am a complete novice, I have proven to myself that this is not a myth as stated above.

my 2C :chug:

SR


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## fletcher (16/1/14)

SnakeRider said:


> Just read this, going to revive as I have done 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp, and done the following experiment on them all...
> 
> I bottled 12 330ml bottles, 4 primed with carbonation drops, 4 with caster sugar, and 4 with brown sugar....
> 
> ...



i'll tell you what makes the twang:

1. didn't take notes
2. 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp/fermented at 25-30+C

EDIT: i'm sorry, but this is laughable. you haven't proven anything


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

fletcher said:


> i'll tell you what makes the twang:
> 
> 1. didn't take notes
> 2. 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp/fermented at 25-30+C
> ...


The experiment was to test the priming medium... what did i not prove?
3 bottles from same batch with different priming medium and 3 different results... 
consistent over 2 batches. 

not sure how else you could conduct such an experiment.


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## DU99 (16/1/14)

> 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp/fermented at 25-30+C


18-20 for ale..look around for black rock malt kits unhopped light and wheat some us 05 mosiac hops bit of speciality grain and you have a beer


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/1/14)

What happened if, within that 5 degree (assumed) range, there was a significant variance (one did 25, one did 30)? Did you use temp control to determine consistency of temperature (or some other means)? Even if you didn't have temp control, did you measure the fermentation temperatures of each beer on a regular basis and take results?

If you didn't, then you have more than one variable, at best, and the results could be challenged.

Edit: And no mention of yeast. Given _yeast_ is what converts wort into beer, it is singly the most important aspect of brewing (not priming ingredients). If you were using "under the lid" yeast from two different makers, there's another variable.


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

Think you missed what I was saying... I am starting to test differences by using the same batch.

I used a single batch, and bottled with different priming mediums... wrote down results as i tasted over 4 weeks.
I used another single batch, and bottle with different priming mediums... wrote down results, just tasted the first 3 of different priming mediums...

the consistent finding between both batches (of identical recipe) when testing the 3 different priming mediums from the same batch, was the same. brown sugar = less twang... yep.. on the same batch. I also did not add my first batch (different recipe) in the findings.

Edit: OK. I see what I said now... I was comparing the 2nd and 3rd batches... not the 1st and second. My bad.

Edit 2: I should have stated I disregarded my first kit, I am pretending I never made that swill.


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## AndrewQLD (16/1/14)

It's possible that the molasses flavour in the brown sugar primed bottles actually helped hide some of the twang whereas the flavor neutral carb drops and sugar didn't.
What would be better would be to brew the beer at a _reasonable_ temp of 20° and then prime the same way again and see if the sugar or carb drops gave a twang, I would also force carb a few bottles with a carbonation cap and some co2 to give you a sugarless base to compare them too.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (16/1/14)

SnakeRider said:


> Just read this, going to revive as I have done 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp, and done the following experiment on them all...
> 
> I bottled 12 330ml bottles, 4 primed with carbonation drops, 4 with caster sugar, and 4 with brown sugar....
> 
> ...


Mate your ferment temp wil add more bad flavours than any thing else.Forget the brown sugar, the other two sugars are the same.
If you're just starting then you only need to worry about two things: cleaning your equip. and ferment temp.then its a matter of FG if your bottling .

Ive found that there is so much info out there that its easy to get confused.
Change only one thing at a time.
That should be FERMENT TEMP.

"my first beer was horrible... rocket fuel... didn't take notes but holy hell, never doing a mangrove jacks blonde again..."
Brewed at anything above 16/18c i dont doubt it.
[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Lifes to short to invest time in making rubbish,get your temp correct your beer will be better![/SIZE]


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> Mate your ferment temp wil add more bad favors than any thing else.Forget the brown sugar, the other two sugars are the same.
> If your just starting then you only need to worry about two things cleaning your equip. and ferment temp.then its a matter of FG if your bottling .
> 
> Ive found that there is so much info out there that its easy to get confused.
> ...


my temps are already sorted dude... 5 days in to my first controlled temp ferment. that was not the point of the experiment. as for 1 thing at a time... changing ONLY THE PRIMING MEDIUM is a pretty good representation of that.... not sure how much of a small change I could do on a single batch. but i am very open to suggestions

I will do the same experiment for the next 2 batches under same conditions.

I do understand twang is amplified by high ferment temps, this fact alone, and the differences between the drops, caster sugar, and brown sugar should be an even bigger reason for this experiment to be conclusive.


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> It's possible that the molasses flavour in the brown sugar primed bottles actually helped hide some of the twang whereas the flavor neutral carb drops and sugar didn't.
> What would be better would be to brew the beer at a _reasonable_ temp of 20° and then prime the same way again and see if the sugar or carb drops gave a twang, I would also force carb a few bottles with a carbonation cap and some co2 to give you a sugarless base to compare them too.


excellent idea with the forced carb caps. never heard of them but will ask at my home brew shop


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## JDW81 (16/1/14)

What brand are your carb drops? I'm not going to get into the debate about whether they leave a twang or not, but I had a bag of drops recently that ruined my beer's head retention. Might have been a crappy batch of drops.


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

JDW81 said:


> What brand are your carb drops? I'm not going to get into the debate about whether they leave a twang or not, but I had a bag of drops recently that ruined my beer's head retention. Might have been a crappy batch of drops.


copper tun


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## fletcher (16/1/14)

i've always used coopers JD. never had a problem with head retention or any kind of twang


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (16/1/14)

I wasn't trying to enter the twang argument. Just stating that ferment temp is a major cause of flavor issues. I always ferment cool at the start (ales 15c) then ramp up to 18c. That I feel is a sweet spot. As well it allows for a deviation of +-1.5/2c. Anyway it's been done before. Look it up mate and good luck.


Before I saw this I didn't understand the "search for it"or use Google? But I've found it helpful hope you do as well.


PSS. Not trying to be a smart ass mate just trying to help.


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## SnakeRider (16/1/14)

Forgive me guys,

I will not post my findings on a controversial topic ever again.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (16/1/14)

All good mate. It's hard to get across ideas like this. I thought it was a ferment temp issue causing the "twang" I didn't mean for into read as "look it up" or "search for it". Just that if you start with a hot ferment it may be hard to pinpoint the flavour issue. All good it's a learning thing,as I've never done a kit brew nor bottled I shouldn't have said anything.


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## Bribie G (16/1/14)

I find that when fermenting at 36 degrees, a touch of Amarillo hop tea definitely makes a difference between two batches.


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## manticle (16/1/14)

SnakeRider said:


> Forgive me guys,
> 
> I will not post my findings on a controversial topic ever again.


Mr sensitive.

Take a breath mate. They're hardly the most rigourously scientific findings and getting temp to a good point will help you make much more accurate assessments about the beer.


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## okie1 (17/1/14)

Well, this topic is disheartening, I have been studying for the last month or so before I make my first kit brew, so I could be spot on and make a fine beer. I have invested in a good system and premium ingredients, now I have to venture in knowing it won't be all that good & have a Twang, no matter what I do, then why bother, this sucks. I may just wait a while longer or just give up..Jeez!!


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## GalBrew (17/1/14)

okie1 said:


> Well, this topic is disheartening, I have been studying for the last month or so before I make my first kit brew, so I could be spot on and make a fine beer. I have invested in a good system and premium ingredients, now I have to venture in knowing it won't be all that good & have a Twang, no matter what I do, then why bother, this sucks. I may just wait a while longer or just give up..Jeez!!



What you only thought it would take one month of research??


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## pk.sax (17/1/14)

Premium ingredients? Like what?
I've tasted kit brews made by other that are quite nice, tarted up with hops, better yeast and some steeped grain basically. It is possible to make a good one, just gets expensive considering the kit is supposed to be can + BE.

Rather buy a fresh wort kit and ferment with supplied yeast or buy good yeast with. Lot less fogging about.


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## okie1 (17/1/14)

Well, I bought the Coopers DIY Kit, came with Coopers Lager tin that included BE 1 & Coopers drops, I bought Briess DME to add also hops top dry hop and Safale US05 yeast. I have checked my recipe and it looks good. I have a shop refrigerator & have ordered a temp controller, I think that should cover it, but will it make a good beer? Why would it have a homebrew Twang?


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## rehabs_for_quitters (17/1/14)

compared to commercial mega swill yes I think you'll be pleasantly suprised, you ticked off the majors i.e. yeast and temp control which is a great start,
I used to make kits quite a while back and with a few added bits like you hops and dme yes you can make some bloody good beers that could fool some of the more brew hardy into thinking it was AG,
once you get your controller on the fridge let her rip and as each brew goes by you'll notice improvements, its well worth the journey


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## okie1 (17/1/14)

I thank you for the encouragement, I feel better now, will start brewing soon, just waiting on a few additional arrivals.


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## fletcher (17/1/14)

okie1 said:


> I thank you for the encouragement, I feel better now, will start brewing soon, just waiting on a few additional arrivals.


don't give up okie. brewing is a journey. you'll make plenty of mistakes and bad brews, but plenty more amazing ones. in my experience i started with kits and then went to brew in a bag and it was just a fun ride the whole way. read lots and understand the 'why' if something goes wrong, then make incremental adjustments to get it better. it's great fun!


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## pk.sax (17/1/14)

Yep, I concur with above posters too. The most easy to mess up things you have already covered.

See how you like the coppers lager, I had just made it with what came in the box and was fairly unimpressed. You are way ahead already. For your next purchases, if you want to stay with kits, ask around here for suggestions of nice kits and recipes to go. Great bases to tinker on. Like the coopers Canadian blonde is an inexpensive one to add stuff to. Yet other kits get a very good rap too.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (17/1/14)

okie1 said:


> Well, I bought the Coopers DIY Kit, came with Coopers Lager tin that included BE 1 & Coopers drops, I bought Briess DME to add also hops top dry hop and Safale US05 yeast. I have checked my recipe and it looks good. I have a shop refrigerator & have ordered a temp controller, I think that should cover it, but will it make a good beer? Why would it have a homebrew Twang?


Thats great 




rehabs_for_quitters said:


> compared to commercial mega swill yes I think you'll be pleasantly suprised, you ticked off the majors i.e. yeast and temp control which is a great start,
> I used to make kits quite a while back and with a few added bits like you hops and dme yes you can make some bloody good beers that could fool some of the more brew hardy into thinking it was AG,
> once you get your controller on the fridge let her rip and as each brew goes by you'll notice improvements, its well worth the journey


+ 1 Okie1 your on target. It sounds like you have done your home work ,that recipe will make a nice beer.
Are you bottling? if so just use the good sugar something made for bottle carbing (like your drops )stay away from brown sugar even table sugar.just use the stuff sold for that job.



http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71800-stupid-things-you-have-done-on-brewday/

have a look at that Okie1 some funny stuff there .


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## Gelding (17/1/14)

> Why would it have a homebrew Twang?


For reasons beyond your control.... maybe. That reason is the goop in the can (excuse the term used by a once infamous poster here). You place a lot of trust in that can but I also dare say also in how that can has been handled since it left the factory. Old or poorly stored cans will produce a darker brew with a far higher propensity toward that dreaded twang.

I see you have already bought dme and hops. If you are doing this then you don't need a kit. You will probably notice a resounding increase in the quality of your beers if you sub that can for dme and boil those hops in it with some water. Of course you need to do a few calculations, but plenty on that in this forum.


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## bmarshall (23/1/14)

Can you describe the TWANG taste? The research i did described a few different flavors. I get a metalic bitter taste to my k&k with quality ingredients and temp control. I get no such twang with fresh wort kits fermented and bottled in the same maner.
PS harden up, you cop plenty of stick on this forum but its cos were all pasionate about brewing


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/1/14)

Concur with most the posts here.

Anyone thinking "I'll do some research and I'll nail it first time and that will be the best I can ever do" is being a bit naïve. It's a bit like a really good sports star - they are always working on their game to improve it.

Brewing is a journey, not a destination. Enjoy learning, improving and experimenting. If you get twang, there's research, there's opinions/conjecture. Make up your mind about all the opinions and find what works for you.


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## technobabble66 (23/1/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I: 
a bit like a really good sports star. 

The quote was too good to pass up ;-)


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## wereprawn (23/1/14)

SnakeRider said:


> Just read this, going to revive as I have done 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp, and done the following experiment on them all...
> 
> I bottled 12 330ml bottles, 4 primed with carbonation drops, 4 with caster sugar, and 4 with brown sugar....
> 
> ...


Good experiment mate. That's what it's all about. Try different things and see what you enjoy best! Personally I find carbing with dextrose gives a bit smoother taste . As stated , fermentation temp is very important and your temps were far too high, in general, for good beer.

Fermenting at high temp produces unwanted types of alcohol and other "off" flavours.

Another thing to try is putting a couple of bottles in the fridge for a few days. Even Ales benefit from lagering.

I use the Coopers cervesa kit for some of my brews as a base, then a few gm of hops, some specialty grains, and a good yeast. Bobs yer uncle.

Don't be down about ya beer. It will get better.

Some of the lads get a tad excited about beer and can be a bit offensive but the majority know their stuff and have good advice to offer ( when their not being miserable, arseholes).

Keep up the good work with your experiments and try not to take shit to personal. It really is a good forum.


Cheers.


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