# So I Got A 19l Pot From Bigw



## QldKev (19/6/10)

Today I got myself a 19L pot from BigW. This is ready for my herms (yes a big herms). Sitting at home just after lunch making plans for the arvo I though I may take it easy. Why not try one of these high gravity BIAB batches on the kitchen stove that have become popular. Having done many BIAB brews, including many double and single at the same time, under my belt I though this may be fun.

*Just after lunch.*
Got the 19L pot and though better have a a clean
5L of hot water and some dish washing detergent onto the stove, largest hotplate.
Took 10 mins to hit a boil, not bad I thinks 
Bit of a clean and a drain. 

*Next stage *
grain ready for an Aussie ale 
about 10L water from the hot tap giving just over a 2L water to grain ratio 
got it up to 76c ready for mash in at 2:15.
kettle ready in case I need to ramp up the temp a bit.
Added grain and stirred for a decent mash in.
66.1 wow this is good! (aiming for 66.0)
wrapped in 3 thick towels. 

*30 mins later*
a good stir to wake things up.
doh! lost 3 degrees, quick a kettle full of water and the hotplate on for a few minutes
ahhh, back to 66
ok, time to cover back up.

*another 30mins *
ok bit busy now call me back in 5...


*another 15mins*
lift the grain bag out
shit only about 3L of water in the pot.
ok lets drain the bag in my sparge bowl and get some more sweet goodness
up to 5L all up and its only an OG of 1.080 sh!t ; by the time I get that to 25L it is just water
a kettle full of water over the draining bag to help sparge
ok, 6 more kettle loads.
not looking good...

*looking grim*
time to bring out my original 40L pot, sit it over the largest 2 hotplates.
pour the contents of the 19L pot into the 40L
keep sparging the grain bag until I get 25L into the boil pot.
quick brix reading, mmm a bit low; about 65% pre boil efficiency

*some time later; as in 5:30!!!* 
These hot plates are slowly coming to the boil, but it's just not happening. Think of all the DMS that will be left in the beer! :icon_vomit: 
Time to wheel out the brew rig from the shed and fire up the LPG burner. 

*now*
The 40L pot is boiling away nicely, got the first hop addition in and waiting 40mins for the next one... geeze this is 1 long brew day.



Will I ever try it again,,, ok you know the answer 


QldKev


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## RdeVjun (19/6/10)

Think I know what you could do differently Kev:
1) That pot has to be full to the brim at mashing, so about 4:1 L:G ratio. No wonder you only got a dribble of first runnings. (This is not conventional mashing.)
2) With the thin- walled pot, strike water temp is probably better when closer to mash + 5C: by the time it is all stirred in and then placed on a cool surface (i.e. not on the stove any more) and insulated, it equilibrates a little lower, so start slightly higher.
3) Dunk sparge in 1.5:1 L:G of near- boiling sparge water (or more if possible), stir and drain well. Do it again if runnings are >1.030 (usually it is).
4) Use excess sparge or just boiling water to replace evaporation losses, helps with hops utilisation too.

If it were me and I wanted to try that again, then that's what I'd do.

Today, in the same stockpot with this method I mashed 4.5kg of mostly GP for an ESB and there's now 17 L of 1.076 chilling which is equivalent to 23.5L (diluted to 1.055) in the fermenter, maybe lose a litre or two to trub. These are routine numbers for me, I do this once or twice a week, no hassles. :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (20/6/10)

Kev!  :lol:


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

RdeVjun said:


> Think I know what you could do differently Kev:
> 1) That pot has to be full to the brim at mashing, so about 4:1 L:G ratio. No wonder you only got a dribble of first runnings. (This is not conventional mashing.)
> I actually heated my water in the pot first, so I had to guess where the water level would be after I added the grain. With my approx 10L water after the grain was added to the pot it was roughly 2/3 full. I did have a kettle and also cold water ready for top ups to adjust temps, but I actually hit my mash temp. Not sure how to get a 4:1 ratio as 19/20L water would leave no space in the pot for grain.
> 
> ...



The main point for me is with a bit of extra gear; ie a 40/50L pot and a burner it makes the day soo much easier. Also my BIAB pots have ball vales for draining that make life easier too. I'm not saying it is a waste of time; it would be ok for a couple of brews to trial it out, and you could make some really good beer. I think it is too tight to say consistent beer though. I ended up at 65% pre boil efficiency; normally I hit between 75% to 85%. Good thing is since I'm making a XXXX style I can just throw in some sugar to bring the alcohol back up. Ultimately this morning I've got 23L of all grain beer in my fermentor.

QldKev


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> Kev!  :lol:




Be nice, I was bored  

Imaging if I used the same ratios in my 100L boil pot. 5 fermentors full from 1 brew day. 
or the 140L pot I'm going to order soon.

QldKev


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## daemon (20/6/10)

I'm no longer a BIAB'er but there's a few faults in your methods. As highlighted by RdeVjunm you want a full volume mash. This is half the advantage / key requirement of the method.

Secondly, you need a good stove to boil with  I'm lucky enough to have a wok burner and it never had a problem getting a full 19L Big-W pot to the boil. Most electric hotplates can't compete with the output of gas, which is why most people prefer gas cook-tops. For those who want to try BIAB and don't have a good cook-top (or not allowed to use it!), a 3 ring burner is more than enough to match the 19L pot. I bought mine for less than $40 and still use it with my 50L keggle.


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## manticle (20/6/10)

QldKev said:


> The main point for me is with a bit of extra gear; ie a 40/50L pot and a burner it makes the day soo much easier.



Agreed (tried to do a kit brew with spec grains last week and it was more of a nightmare than my usual esky tun mash) but I think the point of the method is that it can be tailored to suit people who _don't_ have an LPG burner or 40L pot out the back but don't want equipment limitations to stop them making good grain based beer.

I started doing AG on a woodfired weber in two pots (and two boils in each pot required for each single batch) and there's NO WAY I would consider going back now I have a 50 L plumbed keggle and a 4 ring burner- every brew day was ultimately satisfying but really a big pain in the rear. However it was either that or keep procrastinating full mash brews because I didn't have the equipment or the funds to purchase it.

Good on you for having a crack anyway.


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## MarkBastard (20/6/10)

Is the moral of the story that complete noobs can brew better on a stovetop than you? ;-) ;-) ;-)


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> Have a read of my 20L batch method. It's actually really easy to make a full size brew with a 19L pot.
> 
> It's surprising that newbie brewers can do it and experienced ones can't!
> 
> If I ever need 100L of the same beer I'm probably a fat alkie with a red face - so it works for me. It's nice that you've realised it doesn't work for you. Best to stick to your "simple" brewing.




Could I have kept going and got beer out? Yes
Would all the rooting around with a small pot be worth it? No, not for me
Would it be great beer and something I can make consistent? I doubt it very much!
If I made 100L would I ferment it at once? No - read no-chill, do you have a problem with alcoholism? I can look up the number for you.
Have I tasted all grain brew that is crap? Yes at several get togethers; and I'm proud to say none of the local AG brewers make crap AG beer.
Have I tasted your beer? No, so I can't comment.
Is a decent size pot "simple"? Yes compared to the time stuffing around with a little pot; and compared to the 19L pot a good size pot will be more consistent.

To me if you can't fork out for a basic setup to get good quality consistent beer, find another hobby. Like collecting golf balls and selling them back for 25c each... 

*I agree this is a cheap and simple setup and great way to get into the hobby, but it is not a long term solution.*

Maybe get a few more decent brews under your belt and we will compare final products.

QldKev


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## manticle (20/6/10)

QldKev said:


> To me if you can't fork out for a basic setup to get good quality consistent beer, find another hobby.



Don't forget some people are students or on limited incomes for other reasons. They still may be passionate about brewing good beer and don't want to have to wait until they can afford shiny bling. Also the stovetop method likely suits people who live in small apartments.

I have plenty of space but the first bit describes me (student and casual worker, limited income, passionate about making good beer). I don't do stovetop BIAB - I've set myself up slowly with the makings of a 3 V system (still putting bits together) but it takes time. If in the meantime someone could make AG beer on their stovetop then why not?

Just read your edit and agree - an interim solution dependent on situation. That said - what works for me (3v mash brewing with no pumps and a lot of lifting) might not work for everyone.


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## bradsbrew (20/6/10)

Nick 100L brews are about time management and time efficiency not the bullshit you suggest!


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

manticle said:


> Don't forget some people are students or on limited incomes for other reasons. They still may be passionate about brewing good beer and don't want to have to wait until they can afford shiny bling. Also the stovetop method likely suits people who live in small apartments.
> 
> I have plenty of space but the first bit describes me (student and casual worker, limited income, passionate about making good beer). I don't do stovetop BIAB - I've set myself up slowly with the makings of a 3 V system (still putting bits together) but it takes time. If in the meantime someone could make AG beer on their stovetop then why not?



I agree; I've now highlighted my point from the previous post. I think the 19L pot would be an excellent way into the AG world to get some AG going. But the cost of a 3 ring burner and 50L pot (or keggle) is not that bad; so I think it should be considered a stepping stone, and not the long term solution. 


QldKev


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## manticle (20/6/10)

Mine also edited


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

Daemon said:


> I'm no longer a BIAB'er but there's a few faults in your methods. As highlighted by RdeVjunm you want a full volume mash. This is half the advantage / key requirement of the method.
> 
> Secondly, you need a good stove to boil with  I'm lucky enough to have a wok burner and it never had a problem getting a full 19L Big-W pot to the boil. Most electric hotplates can't compete with the output of gas, which is why most people prefer gas cook-tops. For those who want to try BIAB and don't have a good cook-top (or not allowed to use it!), a 3 ring burner is more than enough to match the 19L pot. I bought mine for less than $40 and still use it with my 50L keggle.



I started with about 10L water (approx), by the time I added grain I was up around 15L (approx) I allowed a bit of extra space for either a hot or cold water top up to get to temp, but was not needed; hence I ended up a bit low. At 30mins I added 2L hot water so now I was up around 17L in a 19L pot so it was as close as I like to see it. 

The stove, we don't have LPG mains up here, so when I redone our kitchen I kept electric. I agree with you that in my case the elec stove was not up to the job. So if you have a decent power stove it would make a huge difference.

QldKev


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Is the moral of the story that complete noobs can brew better on a stovetop than you? ;-) ;-) ;-)



ok, that's it I'm going back to my Homebrand Lager!!!

QldKev


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## daemon (20/6/10)

QldKev said:


> To me if you can't fork out for a basic setup to get good quality consistent beer, find another hobby. Like collecting golf balls and selling them back for 25c each...
> 
> *I agree this is a cheap and simple setup and great way to get into the hobby, but it is not a long term solution.*
> 
> ...


There are a number of people here on the forum and people I know who get away with using a 19L pot long term. Cost isn't the only consideration, size and storage requirements also come into play as well.

Now while I'm a 3V person myself, I have had some exceptionally good beers that were BIAB. If you're worried about consistency then RdeVjun is the person to talk to  One of his latest ESB's is quite simply one of the nicest of the style that I've had (both commercial and homebrew). 

The one thing I've noticed is that equipment seems to play the least part in how good a brew will end up. If you understand your system well, both the limitations and benefits then this makes all the difference.


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

Daemon said:


> There are a number of people here on the forum and people I know who get away with using a 19L pot long term. Cost isn't the only consideration, size and storage requirements also come into play as well.
> 
> Now while I'm a 3V person myself, I have had some exceptionally good beers that were BIAB. If you're worried about consistency then RdeVjun is the person to talk to  One of his latest ESB's is quite simply one of the nicest of the style that I've had (both commercial and homebrew).
> 
> The one thing I've noticed is that equipment seems to play the least part in how good a brew will end up. If you understand your system well, both the limitations and benefits then this makes all the difference.



I agree with you here; but to a level. RdeVjun seems to be running 2 pots, a brew pot and a dunk pot. I can see in an apartment 2 x 19L pots would fit easy; or what even size the second pot is. Also unlike my stove, his must be more powerful to be able to get to a decent rolling boil. If you live in a small apartment with no external space then I could see it being the way forward. If you have an outdoor area, a 50L pot with a burner will mean you can get back to a full vol. Less worries about the boil over and no need to run a separate dunk sparge pot. With my BIAB I'm currently running a double on 1 side, that I dunk sparge into the original pot; but full volume; and a single batch that I sparge using a plastic pot cause I can get a few extra points efficiency out of it. So even in my setup I run a mis-match of setups, and do find a difference between them. 

I do also agree the brewer, and his knowledge of the given gear can make a 100% difference in the final product.

edit: Also I don't think anyone is more of a man based on his brew setup. If you BIAB using a 19L pot, or 30L urn, 40L pot/urn, 50L pot, or traditional 3V setup with or without herms do what you feel comfortable with. This thread was not meant as a dig at 19L pot brewers, it was only ever 1 brewers (being me) perspective on a single day. It was put forward in a light story sense. 




QldKev


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## yardy (20/6/10)

QldKev said:


> I'm proud to say none of the local AG brewers make crap AG beer.
> 
> QldKev



am I a local yet ? :icon_cheers:


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

yardy said:


> am I a local yet ? :icon_cheers:



Yep :icon_cheers: that Schwarzbier I had at your place converted me into liking black beers. :icon_chickcheers: 


QldKev


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## yardy (20/6/10)

QldKev said:


> Yep :icon_cheers: that Schwarzbier I had at your place converted me into liking black beers. :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> 
> QldKev




ah nice one that was, drinking a nice stout atm, you'll have to drag your arse over and try it :icon_cheers:


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## QldKev (20/6/10)

yardy said:


> ah nice one that was, drinking a nice stout atm, you'll have to drag your arse over and try it :icon_cheers:




How does Sat arvo, about 3pm sound. I'll bring my 'I think it is a TTL' around. 

QldKev


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## RdeVjun (21/6/10)

No worries Kev, I hope you got out of this experiment what you wanted and I appreciate that you shared it with us, but unfortunately, IMO your method was flawed from the start. Did you use brewing software to do the mash calcs? If so, perhaps write to them asking for incorporation of modern methods. 

Now, with my first two points, I was talking about a slightly different situation, so taking the pot, heating up about 2/3 full with water to mash temp + 5C, slipping the bag in, raining in the grain, then topping it up to the brim (that top up water can also adjust mash temp). That gives a L:G of *about* 4, maybe a bit less. It doesn't really matter precisely what the mash L:G ratio is with this method, I think it is more important to have the pot full to the brim than to chase a particular L:G.

To do the sparge the way I described, *no, another 15L stockpot is not required*, I certainly don't use one, just an 11L bucket. The reason I recommend a sparge L:G of 1.5 is so that the method keeps it in the realm of most households without any more expense- most have a nappy bucket, just about any plastic bucket will do (I think they usually come in roughly 10, 15 or 20L sizes), a bigger one is fine but not necessary. Put the first bit of the sparge's hot water in the bucket (a 2 L domestic kettle- full*), dunk the bag in it, top up with another kettle- full, then some more up to L:G of 2**. Depending on how well the bag is drained after mashing, the L:G is probably <1.5, so not enough, but we can do it again as there's usually plenty of time- the sparge can be added almost all the way up to the boil end. Sparging is solving two problems- increasing efficiency and increasing boil volume.

One common refrain with no- sparge BIAB in a common, garden- variety 19L stockpot is that the batch size is too small, often as little as 12L, but the sparged stove- top method with a full- sized grainbill addresses that problem. One other attraction is there's no farting about with missed targets, the final dilution step takes care of that.

*For me*, the method is all about novice brewers trying full- batch AG without much risk (if we can assume most households have a nappy bucket, as little as one stockpot, a thermometer and a BIAB bag). They may like it, they may not- either way, they haven't risked the farm in equipment or expense. Cost- wise to try out AG, AFAIK and as other posters point out, it doesn't get much cheaper than this! Keeping this stove- top method within the domestic realm is important; because all of the equipment is cheap and readily available it means* more novices can give AG a try* and that's what I think we should all be encouraging. 
I realise your 40/50L pot makes it easier and simpler, but an expense of that magnitude just to try something out is beyond many brewers, less of them will be able to try a bigger stockpot and burner, more will be able to afford the stove- top kit.

Like you say, it is worth a trial and thanks for doing that, but to be honest though, I'm so pleased with this method that I am sticking with it- I have a couple of stainless firkins and plumbing set aside for a multi- vessel rig but I'm in no rush to build it, perhaps I'll even sell them! If you're willing to PM me your address, I'll happily send you a sample from this method for critique. :icon_cheers: 

BTW, using two elements/ gas rings together should be possible with the 19L on some stoves, particularly small crappy ones with everything closer together (like mine). Also, are you quite sure it is a 19L pot and not something smaller?

* Kettle- full: Most domestic kettles aren't 2L, they're slightly smaller than that. Because I prefer sparge water just off the boil and my kettle is 1.75L, I'll add a cup of cold water first then tip the kettle- full of boiling water in on top. The temperature doesn't seem to be critical, but mashout usually ends up in the low- 70s this way.

** Be careful going over sparge L:G of 2, don't want too much sparge left over after the boil.

Ps. A few posts have been pulled or did I miss something?


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## Nick JD (21/6/10)

QldKev said:


> Maybe get a few more decent brews under your belt and we will compare final products.
> 
> QldKev



You've set out to deliberately fail in what is a very, very easy method of brewing and your comment above says volumes about your personality.


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## Nick JD (21/6/10)

RdeVjun said:


> If you're willing to PM me your address, I'll happily send you a sample from this method for critique. :icon_cheers:



+1


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## yardy (21/6/10)

QldKev said:


> How does Sat arvo, about 3pm sound. I'll bring my 'I think it is a TTL' around.
> 
> QldKev



pm sent :icon_cheers:


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## QldKev (21/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> You've set out to deliberately fail in what is a very, very easy method of brewing and your comment above says volumes about your personality.



Yes my personality sees you need to continuously attack the person rather than the topic; and do it online - internet tough guy...

RdeVjun on the other hand has discussed where he believes my brew day did not go as planned; and how he makes consistently good brews using the 19L pot method and also currently plans on continuing to use this method. This makes this method look a lot better than my one attempt. An attempt which was done while doing other things; hence my comments in the middle of the first post, about at the 60min mark ok bit busy now call me back in 5 and then another 15mins

I never set out to fail; I tried this method hoping it would actually work allowing me to do occasional brews late evenings on colder nights. As I have stated I could have made it work, but finalising the brew on my brew rig was an easier option; so I took that route. This allowed me to get back to my painting prep work. If we all brewed the same way we would never experiment and evolve new ideas. Im still currently a BIAB brewer; a method that was greatly discussed on here when it first came up. 

From RdeVjuns experience maybe the 19L stove top method will also eventually get hundreds or thousands of followers as BIAB has done.

ps. I will not be responding to anymore of your comments.

QldKev


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## Nick JD (21/6/10)

QldKev said:


> ps. I will not be responding to anymore of your comments.
> 
> QldKev



I'm sure you'd like to comment when I get a full HERMS system, ignore all the advice about how to use this equipment and then declare it a bad way to make beer because I couldn't get it to work despite there being copius information on how it's done. 

I'm not going to do this though, because then people would think me a dickhead with something to prove.


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## bradsbrew (21/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> I'm not going to do this though, because then people would think me a dickhead with something to prove.




I think you have already cornered that market little fella!


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## Nick JD (21/6/10)

bradsbrew said:


> I think you have already cornered that market little fella!



:lol:  :lol: What other people think of me is none of my business.


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## yardy (27/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> I'm not going to do this though, because then people would think me a dickhead with something to prove.






bradsbrew said:


> I think you have already cornered that market little fella!


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## MarkBastard (27/6/10)

When you're new to brewing and a forum like this you yearn for someone like Nick JD who will cut out the bullshit and just tell you how to get up and running with minimal equipment and minimal fuss. There's too many people here that have been brewing for so long they wouldn't have a frigging clue what it's like to be new to the concept and they always seem to make assumptions about what a new brewer will have access to, be it equipment or knowledge.

It's like that old "Let them eat cake" comment.

"The brewers don't have HERMS"
"Let them use RIMS!"


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## manticle (27/6/10)

It goes both ways - Nick has posted some great, simple to follow advice on here which should be lauded, not censured (my phrase of the day).

He also sometimes sets himself up as a bit of a vigilante mythbuster which gets a bit tedious. Just because Nick once observed something not happening in his beer doesn't make the wealth of experience, knowledge and brewing science accrued over a very long time bullshit or useless academic wank.

Myself I'm ambivalent to the whole thing. I think there's validity in people's personal experiences, particularly where it relates to homebrewing. There's also validity in brewing science (particularly where it relates to homebrewing).

If Nick can pop into HERMS threads and make smartarse comments about how his cleaning regime takes 6 minutes then I guess he can expect to cop a bit back. He's a big boy, thick skinned I'm sure. He's provided some valuable insight along the way, of particular use to noobs trying to demystify stuff but he's also prone to a certain sense of 'I'm never wrong'. Suck it up.

It's been making the forum interesting recently to some extent anyway.

for the record, I love everyone


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## Nick JD (27/6/10)

manticle said:


> for the record, I love everyone



I love you too, Manticle. Mwah! :wub:


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## manticle (27/6/10)

Besides some of the racist bigots and trolls that have appeared from time to time, there's not a person here I've had interaction with, with whom I wouldn't happily share a beer and talk shit about brewing.

In fact the last person I had a real online spat with here I have since met with, traded beer with and generally found to be a very hospitable, passionate and agreeable brewer and person.

I can't promise I'll like everyone (I'm actually slightly misanthropist in many ways) but beer fixes a lot of things.

anyway enough hippy shit. Back to the slanging matches please.


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## Nick JD (27/6/10)

manticle said:


> Back to the slanging matches please.



Yo Mama drinks VB.


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## manticle (27/6/10)

My mama's a coeliac you prick. I can't believe you said that!


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## Nick JD (27/6/10)

manticle said:


> My mama's a coeliac you prick. I can't believe you said that!



Yo Mama's a fish?


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## manticle (27/6/10)

We will never speak of this again.


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## yardy (27/6/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> When you're new to brewing and a forum like this you yearn for someone like Nick JD




:icon_vomit:


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## Nick JD (27/6/10)

Or gay Spider man - depending on your persuasion.


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## yardy (27/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> Or gay Spider man - depending on your persuasion.




haha, hadn't noticed that he was gay, something you want to share nick ? :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (28/6/10)

yardy said:


> haha, hadn't noticed that he was gay, something you want to share nick ? :icon_cheers:



Name like Peter Parker, how ya gonna miss it?


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## sandjeep457 (29/6/10)

manticle said:


> Besides some of the racist bigots and trolls that have appeared from time to time, there's not a person here I've had interaction with, with whom I wouldn't happily share a beer and talk shit about brewing.
> 
> 
> 
> .


I am only new here - but have a lot of experience with other forums - mainly car forums,and I agree that most people you meet through Internet Forums are o.k. (a few total weirdo's though, that I wouldn't like my daughters to meet).

As for you hatred of people with views opposite to your Mr Manticle, I also have no time for those so called Aussies who are destroying our country through excessive population growth. they cannot see that the great Aussie beer drinking, laid back lifestyle is slowly being eroded.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

Only switched to AG a few weeks ago and the Brew in a bag guide from Nick_JD is what finally got me there. That last step was the biggest.

I have noticed that occasionally he can seem a know it all, but certainly that guide more than makes up for it. 

And there will always be the idiots that just assume a newb will know as much as they do, and therefore know all the jargon. And will not give you advice based on what you can do, only on what they can do.

And there will always be online spats, because it is hard to get the tone right, and stuff can escalate pretty quickly. And trolls, because anonymity allows them to behave without much consequence.

Any "help" (and I define that term loosely) that I give comes from years as an extract plus grain brewer, and almost everytime I just say "go get the all grain brewing for less than 30 bucks thread". Make that jump, it isn't that bad.


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