# Controlling crown urn with STC1000/PID



## Chris7 (9/1/15)

Hi all,

I am currently in the process of upgrading my BIAB system to have recirc etc. I am looking to have either an STC or PID to control mash temps with the urn. Will this be ok to do? I have done a bit of research, and it seems that it should be ok to do but some people seem to be suggesting using a relay with the STC as to not overwork it. Would an STC be fine? Or would a PID with the ramp/soak and relay just simply be the better option from the get go? My FIL is a licensed sparky so the wiring side of it is not an issue. Also, the idea would be to have the urns thermostat set to full all the time and be purely controlled by one of the above.

Thanks in advance.


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## going down a hill (9/1/15)

I have an stc controlling / reading the temp of my mash in a crown 40l urn. My old man is a sparky and when he wired it up for me he put a relay in it just in case it couldn't handle the load, even though it's rated to do so. 

I love being able to have a readout of the temp in the middle of a mash when you walk past it. Makes my inner geek very happy.


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## tateg (9/1/15)

St100 will need a relay other wise it will overheat. Obviously only need a relay on the hot side


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## Camo6 (9/1/15)

I ran two stc1000's for my hlt and herms. Never had an issue, both still work fine. One ran a 2400W element the other 2200w. Mind you the 2400w would be drawing 10a so you're running them at there maximum recommended current draw.
Have now switched to pids and while I've gained a slight increase in accuracy, the ramp/soak function is the real winner.
I only used the stc's while I built my controller but knew they'd have plenty of use around the brewery controlling fermentors/kegerators/starters etc.


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## seamad (9/1/15)

If you are like most brewers then no doubt down the track you will be looking for improvements or upgrades so I'd go straight for the ramp/soak PID, it's probably where you'll end up anyway.


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## squirt in the turns (9/1/15)

Camo6 said:


> I ran two stc1000's for my hlt and herms. Never had an issue, both still work fine. One ran a 2400W element the other 2200w. Mind you the 2400w would be drawing 10a so you're running them at there maximum recommended current draw.
> Have now switched to pids and while I've gained a slight increase in accuracy, the ramp/soak function is the real winner.
> I only used the stc's while I built my controller but knew they'd have plenty of use around the brewery controlling fermentors/kegerators/starters etc.


+1
I run my HLT (2400 W Crown urn) on one and have never seen any indication of overheating.


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## Chris7 (9/1/15)

Thank you very much everyone for your responses!

I am thinking it would be wise to perhaps go with the PID+relay as down the track I am sure I will be looking to upgrade and if that is going to make it easier in the long run then why not. 
If I do go with the STC however, I will put a relay in as I tend to err on the side of caution. 

There are no detrimental affects on the urns from controlling them through PID/STC?


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## tateg (9/1/15)

squirt in the turns said:


> +1
> I run my HLT (2400 W Crown urn) on one and have never seen any indication of overheating.


I used one with my crown urn and after about 4 or 5 brews it just stopped working, I opened it up and the hot output was melted quite badly. If u want something similar go with the keg king controller as it is rated at 16 amps.

I was also using it for a recirc biab setup


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## Chris7 (11/1/15)

I have a keg king temp controller that I use for fermenting. I tried it with the urn but I found it's reaction time to be very slow while the temp was ramping up, and it also started to get inaccurate at the higher temps. Not sure if others have had these issues at all?


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## Chris7 (12/1/15)

going down a hill said:


> I have an stc controlling / reading the temp of my mash in a crown 40l urn. My old man is a sparky and when he wired it up for me he put a relay in it just in case it couldn't handle the load, even though it's rated to do so.
> 
> I love being able to have a readout of the temp in the middle of a mash when you walk past it. Makes my inner geek very happy.


Do you also recirculate in the urn? If so, how do you find it?


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## going down a hill (12/1/15)

Chris7 said:


> Do you also recirculate in the urn? If so, how do you find it?


Nope the next thing on my list is an aeration kit, then I might look into recirculation.


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## Chris7 (12/1/15)

Ah ok. And the temp seems to be pretty consistent for you? I think aeration will be my next splurge too.


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## going down a hill (20/1/15)

Chris7 said:


> Ah ok. And the temp seems to be pretty consistent for you? I think aeration will be my next splurge too.


I do infusion mashing so the mash only stays at any single temp on average for 20-30 so I don't have any issues in keeping the temp stable. But when I did single infusion mashing it was stable through insulation.

Sorry for the late reply, i haven't been near much internet lately.


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## Chris7 (20/1/15)

No worries at all, mate.

Cheers for the reply.


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## takai (28/1/15)

I use a REX C-100 with a Pt100 sensor for my BIAB mash:






Uses a 40A SSR and a heatsink to keep it cool when pushing the max amps through the heater circuit. Popped the volt/ammeter on there for fun too.
Oh and that is supposedly connected to a 2400w 10A heating element... Headspace in your calculations is critical.

I do recirculation in my mash, and it rarely has to heat. That is more down to the insulation rather than the heating control.


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## droid (28/1/15)

Chris7 said:


> I have a keg king temp controller that I use for fermenting. I tried it with the urn but I found it's reaction time to be very slow while the temp was ramping up, and it also started to get inaccurate at the higher temps. Not sure if others have had these issues at all?


Hey mate did you have your KK's delay at "0" ?
Mine is set up as per the u-tube clip for this unit and the advice on there is for a 2 minute delay on heating and cooling for fridge ferments - so as to not constantly switch things on. but I have sometimes forgotten to switch it back to zero delay when controlling the HLT temp sometimes and as a result the temp creeps up during that 2 min delay


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## Chris7 (28/1/15)

I don't recall what I had it on to be honest when I first did it, but I did a test again on the weekend and had the sensor coming out of the recirc tube (which I did not have last time) and then measured with my other thermometer and they were pretty well the same so may have just been inconsistencies in the heat distribution in the mash. But the good news is I have placed my order at Auberins tonight and have an SYL-2352 on it's way. Cannot wait!


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## Yob (28/1/15)

tateg said:


> St100 will need a relay other wise it will overheat.



Shit really? My system must be a freak of electronics.. Never overhead once. No additional relays. 1 running my hex and one running the hlt.


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## tateg (29/1/15)

Yob said:


> Shit really? My system must be a freak of electronics.. Never overhead once. No additional relays. 1 running my hex and one running the hlt.


 yep crown urn severely melted the hot side on the st100. Maybe I had a dodgy one


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## Yob (29/1/15)

I run a birko off one as my HEX..


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## takai (29/1/15)

Yob said:


> Shit really? My system must be a freak of electronics.. Never overhead once. No additional relays. 1 running my hex and one running the hlt.


Depends on whether your heaters draw their rated spec or not. The heater for my BIAB urn is nominally 2400w/10A, but as you can see in the photo above it actually draws 12.5A or 3000W. I burnt out a heating circuit on a ST1000 by wiring it up with that.


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## Chris7 (29/1/15)

Going over rated spec by 600watts is much higher than I would have expected!


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## takai (29/1/15)

As would I, but I have noticed its not unheard of with a lot of the products. I borrowed a 20L Crown urn for strike water on Monday that was drawing 11.2A through its '10A' element.


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## Yob (29/1/15)

Well if you were running it over spec.. Bit different than a blanket statement that they all need an extra relay wired innit..


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## tavas (29/1/15)

Have run 20+ batches through 40lt Birko and 10A temp controller. No issues so far. (Just realised its not an STC 1000).

Edit: I should note however that I only use the temp controller to control the mash temp temp (usually set for single temp infusion). Once at temp, I switch off the controller and ride out the time. For the boil I disconnect the controller and run the urn straight from the mains.

So I'll qualify my statement above that I've had no issues so far using this method. Cannot vouch for running the boil through it constantly, though I have done this a few times previously with no issues.


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## Cortez The Killer (29/1/15)

Been running a 2 * STC1000 on my HLT and HERMS for 3+ years without issue

Looking at putting a PID on my HERMS for tighter control

STC1000 allows a 0.3*C swing before it kicks in and will over and under shoot by say 0.8*C with my HERMS arrangement (a $7 kmart kettle with coil in)

Hasn't really bothered me as the swings are consistent from batch to batch but after getting a PID for my electric smoker I'm really impressed at how stable they keep the temps

Cheers


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## takai (29/1/15)

Yob said:


> Well if you were running it over spec.. Bit different than a blanket statement that they all need an extra relay wired innit..


I didnt make the blanket statement so i wont defend that.

But its not about whether you are running it over spec, you dont get a choice in the matter with 99% of heating elements. They are draw as much current as they are built for. However, resistance based heating is a notoriously inaccurate design and so in making a batch of elements they vary all over the shop. In my case as much as 25% extra, although mine is a cheap mass produced Chinese element with bugger all quality control. Many of the larger suppliers such as Crown and Birko will build in overheads into their design so they wont trip circuits. Additionally most electrical items can supply higher than their rated power as an overhead, e.g. your standard 10A powerpoint is perfectly happy pumping 15A through it for reasonable periods.

However, the STC1000 has a very low overhead on the relays inside it. If you see here they are only rated to 10A at 277v:





Even then i would suggest that the rated 10A is pushing the limits of the tiny relay.

So i wouldnt say that your system is a freak, but more that the elements you are using are safely within spec. But do know that most devices out there are out of spec. I have blown up two heating circuits on mine sofar, one from the urn that draws 12.5A and another from a '2400W' oil heater.


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## Chris7 (29/1/15)

Quick question for anyone using the Auberins SYL-2352, I know that it has the 12vdc output for SSR, but is it possible for a 12v mechanical relay to be used at all? Reason I ask is my FIL has some mechanical relays already and it would save some dough. I am guessing it probably won't work though and I will just have to source an SSR.


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## Camo6 (29/1/15)

An ssr off ebay is about $4 delivered give or take. It will handle rapid switching whereas your mechanical relay will likely fail when you need it most. Pretty sure there's an auber pid specifically for mechanical relays but don't quote me. Get an ssr and a heatsink (internal or external) and give yourself some peace of mind.


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## Chris7 (29/1/15)

Cheers, yeh I ended up pulling the trigger a few mins ago haha. I would not have been pleased if we assembled the box only to realise it could not be used. Cheers.


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## takai (29/1/15)

Chris7 said:


> Cheers, yeh I ended up pulling the trigger a few mins ago haha. I would not have been pleased if we assembled the box only to realise it could not be used. Cheers.


Thats what i did and then realised that the internal heatsink wasnt big enough, hence the big heatsink hanging out the side of the box.


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