# Bb Caramalt Vs Carared



## rough60 (5/3/09)

Just after some info/opinions from anyone who has used both.
Cheers.


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## Pennywise (5/3/09)

IMO it depends on what beer you're making, I tend to use the caramalt in amber ales and only used carared once a fair while ago in a poor attempt at a scotch ale


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## Mantis (5/3/09)

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/default.asp?CID=21

I have used caramalt in pale ales and carared in porters. The carared as its name implies gives a red colour to the brew.


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## chappo1970 (5/3/09)

Is there a recipe or style you want or just a "in general question"? I don't know about using both in the one recipe if that's what your after? Not to sure what your asking?


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## Fents (5/3/09)

i could chomp on uncracked carared anyday of the week. best.


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## Cortez The Killer (5/3/09)

Any one had any success with making a red lager - something along the lines of the red lager on tap at the Macquarie Hotel?

I picked up a kilo of carared - but can't find any definative re: % to get a red colour - weyermanns says can be used up to 25% - which I though would have been a bit much for a crystal malt

Many people had experience with this malt?

Cheers

Edit: Correct original 40% to 25% - Thanks Chappo


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## reviled (5/3/09)

Isnt cara-red just a medium crystal?


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## chappo1970 (5/3/09)

*Yep Rev

EBC: 40 - 50 (Steep):* Gorgeous crystal malt, full body and aroma, deep red colour.
Red ales and lagers, Scottish ales, Bocks, Alts...
Current batch WM61
EBC 43.0
Caramelisation 90%
Complete specs available on request

ProductEBCLovibondUseRateResultCARARED40 - 5015.6 -19.3
Red Ale
Red Lager
Scottish Ale
Amber Wheat
Bock Beer
Brown Ale
Alt Beer
up to
25 %
fuller body
improved malt aroma>
deep saturated color
red color


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## rough60 (5/3/09)

I was just after a light crystal and would preffer to buy Aussie, but if the carared is much better I'd get that.
I might just get a kg of each and do a side by side test.


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## Fents (5/3/09)

i've read here that you get more red colour with some black malts too, apparently carared isnt all its cracked up to be (punski) when it comes to getting the red hue in a beer.


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## reviled (5/3/09)

Fents said:


> i've read here that you get more red colour with some black malts too, apparently carared isnt all its cracked up to be (punski) when it comes to getting the red hue in a beer.



They use roast barley in irish reds..


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## Mantis (5/3/09)

Carared does give a very rich malt flavour. I used 500g in one brew and that was way too much


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## razz (5/3/09)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Any one had any success with making a red lager - something along the lines of the red lager on tap at the Macquarie Hotel?
> 
> I picked up a kilo of carared - but can't find any definative re: % to get a red colour - weyermanns says can be used up to 40% - which I though would have been a bit much for a crystal malt
> 
> ...


 :icon_offtopic: I was thinking/talking about this just yesterday. Interestingly enough Weyermann recipe for a Red lager has no carared. It's mainly Vienna plus a big whack of melanoidin and a small amount of caramunich. I would like to give it a go but I don't have enough melanoidin.


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## wessmith (5/3/09)

Carared for ales (it is a crystal malt) and Melanoidin for lagers. Both will impart a red hue but different flavours

Wes


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## Bribie G (5/3/09)

Mantis said:


> Carared does give a very rich malt flavour. I used 500g in one brew and that was way too much



Yup. I've been getting carared in 500g packs, on to my second one. The malt aroma knocks you for six when you open the pack. By comarison the 'ordinary' crystal smells like something you would feed the guinea pigs on. I've been combining it 250g / 250g with dark crystal and getting a nice amber colour (American Amber and Ruddles County style so far).

I agree with buying Aussie how, and migrating much of my brewing to BB and to local crystal, and POR for my lagerales but will buy carared as a luxury item for sure. In fact I have a hunch, based on experience so far, that it will hopefully lift the BB to give UK Bitters on a smilar level to MO based brews without shopping overseas and racking up all those malt miles. Heres hoping 

Edit: oh and I'm also not going to give up my NZ hops, lovely lovely NZ hops. Cheers Reviled


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## Fourstar (5/3/09)

wessmith said:


> Carared for ales (it is a crystal malt) and Melanoidin for lagers. Both will impart a red hue but different flavours



Carared or all Cara malts are a different beast to Melanoiden, Amber, toated malts.

Caras are what they are, caramel malts. Melanoiden, amber etc are kilned malts like Munich or Vienna and are used for malt aromatics and malt flavour (bready) not Sweetness. It cannot be used in the same contest as Munich or Vienna like a base as i believe they cannot convert themselves.

Melanoiden can be used in ales, i dont know why you would reserve it for just lagers. I used a small portion in an irish red in conjunction with carared that turned out well. You could taste the differences between the two.

Melanoiden is a fair sub for malts like amber malt and the notorious US victory malt. Obviously its not the same as those malts but it gives the needed 'toast/baking bread' quality.


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## Jakechan (5/3/09)

I used 250g Carared in an Irish Red Ale and the result was a nice red colour without going too dark.

Ive also used 100g Caraaroma in a Porter and was surprised at the ruby red hue that could be seen in the blackness.

Therein endeth my experience with these 

Cheers,
Jake


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## warrenlw63 (5/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Carared or all Cara malts are a different beast to Melanoiden, Amber, toated malts.
> 
> Caras are what they are, caramel malts. Melanoiden, amber etc are kilned malts like Munich or Vienna and are used for malt aromatics and malt flavour (bready) not Sweetness. It cannot be used in the same contest as Munich or Vienna like a base as i believe they cannot convert themselves.
> 
> ...



Hey Fourstar I can't speak for Wes personally but I think you'll find he knows kinda knows all that. He was the first person to import the stuff into the country about 8 years ago.  

Some people don't need to be taught how to suck eggs.  

Warren -


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## Hefty (5/3/09)

Fents said:


> i've read here that you get more red colour with some black malts too, apparently carared isnt all its cracked up to be (punski) when it comes to getting the red hue in a beer.


+1 I brewed a red ale that I really enjoyed. It had a beautiful flavour and aroma but even with 500g of carared, 200g caraaroma _and_ 50g roasted barley malt (for a slight roasty dryness) it still ended up more of an amberish brown.
But, like I said, still areally nice drop :chug: 
Cheers!
Jono.


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## Fourstar (5/3/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Fourstar I can't speak for Wes personally but I think you'll find he knows kinda knows all that. He was the first person to import the stuff into the country about 8 years ago.
> Some people don't need to be taught how to suck eggs.
> Warren -



I didnt mean for the post to sounds like i was attacking Wes, i was elaborating on what he said as it was quite brief. I just wanted to make sure melanoiden didnt need to be reserved for only lagers. As this is quite a newbie based thread


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## braufrau (5/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> I didnt mean for the post to sounds like i was attacking Wes, i was elaborating on what he said as it was quite brief. I just wanted to make sure melanoiden didnt need to be reserved for only lagers. As this is quite a newbie based thread




so ... wes, fourstar, anyone ... why is melanoiden for lagers? I sub. it for aromatic malt in american recipes. 
Last two ales I brewed had melanoiden in them.


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## Fourstar (5/3/09)

braufrau said:


> so ... wes, fourstar, anyone ... why is melanoiden for lagers? I sub. it for aromatic malt in american recipes.
> Last two ales I brewed had melanoiden in them.



As i said, used to impart melanoiden qualities (toasty/bready/malty) and is not just 'reserved' for lagers, just used more often in them i suppose. Going to an extreme, you could even use a 'touch' <2% of melanoiden in a pils to avoid a decotion mash to get some melanoidens happening. I dont know how much this would effect colour thou. maybe 1-2 degrees?


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/3/09)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=439

Carared is my favorite Xtal when making red ales. Gives a fantastic red colour and beautifull malty toffee caramel flavour that suits red ales.

I use about 13% in my reds ( 650gms ) balanced with a small amount of RB to take the sweetness off.

Caraaroma also works well, but not essentiall.

caraaroma is a must in porters


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## wessmith (5/3/09)

braufrau said:


> so ... wes, fourstar, anyone ... why is melanoiden for lagers? I sub. it for aromatic malt in american recipes.
> Last two ales I brewed had melanoiden in them.



Cos you would normally never put crystal malts in a lager/pilsner style Braufrau. The crystal - any crystal will build a rich and full, sometimes cloying mouthfeel which aint in lager territory. Many crystal malts also attenuate poorly and that again is not what you want in the lager/pilsner style where you dont have the flavour hop additions to balance the crystal. Now with ales it is a little different - melanoidin will work fine in an ale but give a cleaner attenuation than Carared.

Wes


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## schooey (5/3/09)

So CaraAmber would be out of place in a Marzen, Wes?


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## domonsura (5/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Melanoiden is a fair sub for malts like amber malt and the notorious US victory malt. Obviously its not the same as those malts but it gives the needed 'toast/baking bread' quality.



I don't know that I would agree with that - regardless of Weyermann suggesting it can be used for up to 20% of the grist, IMHO melanoidin can be a little overpowering and requires careful use, whereas amber malt is much more forgiving in my experience. I personally would have suggested Bairds Brown malt or Amber as a sub for Victory rather than Melanoidin.

As far as Carared goes, I used 1kg in a 45 litre batch (11% of grist) and flavourwise it was really enjoyable, almost chewy - but the lack of red was a little disappointing - I was all amped up to get a beer like a fire engine .... The following batch I managed to bump the colour up a little by adding a little cararoma (200gm). Previous recipes not using the Carared but using the Amber and Bairds Brown respectively resulted in a brew that wasn't really red at all, but the Amber gave a sweeter chewier result, and the Brown a more bready depth to flavour. My personal preference was the Bairds brown, as I found that the Amber brew became not quite sickly but heavier going. 

Not sure if any of that is any use to you Rough60......carared is still a bloody nice malt.


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## schooey (5/3/09)

domonsura said:


> but the lack of red was a little disappointing - I was all amped up to get a beer like a fire engine  .....




Hence my comment about the CaraAmber above.... I made a Scottish strong that I wanted to get a rich ruby red colour from and used 10% Carared, and it came out more deep brown to deep copper. I recently did a triple decotion Marzen with a slug of CaraAmber in it and it _*IS*_ Fire Engine red (not something I was after) and has those wonderful biscuity and melanoidin flavours... without adding melanoidin... :blink:


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## Jakechan (5/3/09)

You've all made me rethink my first post in this thread. I said I got a "nice red colour" with the Carared.
Well, I just drank a stubbie of the Irish Red I made with this and the colour was more accurately _pale red/copper_. I definitely got more red colouring with the Caraamber I reckon. Just dont want to be misleading.

Cheers,
Jake


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## buttersd70 (5/3/09)

carared 6%
caraaroma 3%
carafa s t1 1.5%
JW Ale for the base....





Red enough for me.


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## schooey (5/3/09)

You should brew that again, Butters, but sub CaraAmber for the CaraRed and just see how much more red it is


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## buttersd70 (5/3/09)

schooey said:


> You should brew that again, Butters, but sub CaraAmber for the CaraRed and just see how much more red it is



It's certainly worth thinking about.....when I was developing the recipe, I was actually considering the caraamber. Kept switching in my mind back and forth between the two, and finaly settled on the red....might have to do a couple in quick succession for comparison.

edit...or even a combo of the two....3/3/3 aroma/amber/red.....now theres a thought....


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## reviled (6/3/09)

Actually good point about the carafa! My munich dunkel was 3kg Munich, 1.5kg Vienna, and 200g carafa and it was dark, but red like coca cola at the same time, it was completely bright without any chill haze (for my first time ever) but it was definately all red around the edges.. I guess the munich probably helped a tad also?


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## rough60 (6/3/09)

Thanks for all the replies, and comparison of diff specialty malts.
I was only really after info if carared was better than BB, but maybe some newbs got some good info out of the extra info that was supplied.
Cheers.


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## wessmith (6/3/09)

Just to help round out the topic, I have uploaded a doc that explains ome of the properties of "special malts". The "Brumalz" mentioned is melanoidin malt.

Wes 

View attachment Malting_spezial_malts_.doc


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## Acasta (18/7/10)

Hey guys, i know this is off topic, but i figured its not worth making a new one;
Is there a wiki topic or document of some sort outlining all the malts and their purpose/description?
I read wikipedia's bit on malts and the above link and its not really what im looking for, i was hoping for somehing more along the lines of every malt catagory and then sub cataogires of each.
Thanks.


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## manticle (18/7/10)

You will get a bit of a description from manufacturer's websites.

Palmer also discusses them in how to brew: http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

A quick google search on malt types gave me this: http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/malttypes.htm

This: http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/b...barley_malt.htm

and this: http://www.hogtownbrewers.org/brewschooldocs/malt-chart.pdf

Googling malt characteristics gives me this: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Malt This link has a great breakdown of subcategories with separate links and links to a chart with colour guide, flavour characteristics etc.

And this: http://www.learntobrew.com/page/1fbcj/Shop...yles_Chart.html


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## Bribie G (18/7/10)

Also you could do worse than browse CraftBrewer (sponsor at top of page) malts and grains section - they don't write the descriptions themselves, they mainly cut and paste from industry sources so the info is quite reliable.


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## Acasta (18/7/10)

manticle said:


> A quick google search on malt types gave me this:


Google is my friend.

That palmer one is pretty much what i was looking for! thanks.


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