# Mashing Rice...



## Fermented (21/10/09)

'Afternoon!

I'm thinking to stuff around with rice as an adjunct. 

I have a fermenter coming empty this afternoon and want to fill 'er up again, despite the warm day. Worse yet, I'm low on ingredients and the car is in for service so can't make it to the LHBS until tomorrow.

I have about 2 kg LDME in the bottom of the pail, 250 g Caraamber, 400 g Choc malt, oodles of Fuggles, Pilgrim, EKG and Hallertauer. And a sod off big sack of sushi rice (staple diet in this household), 500 gm porridge oats, 500 gm polenta.

So - two questions:

[1] Mashing rice without AG/BIAB/etc?
I understand that up 20% of the grain bill can be rice cooked to a slurry, then mash as normal. 

However, I don't have enough grain in stock I guess to do 90 mins @ 66C in Bribie's style. 

Are there alternative methods such as boiling the rice as say 1 Kg dry weight in 6 litres water with 500 gm sucrose? Or am I heading towards a rice-cider-beer abomination?


[2] Given the temporary ingredient shortage, what would you make with the above ingredients?


Look forward to hearing your ideas.


Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## reviled (21/10/09)

Youll need to mash the rice with some pale grains to get the enzymes to convert the starch to sugar, otherwise youll just end up with unfermentable starch from the rice which will make your beer hazy, and possibly taste like crap?


----------



## Fermented (21/10/09)

Yes, you're right. If it's not converted, it's just starch and that's begging for a quick infection.

Just trying to find a way to do the conversion with the limited ingredients to hand...

I've heard of it being done with sucrose but am not sure of the method or the result and my Google-fu fails me. 


Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## reviled (21/10/09)

Fermented said:


> Yes, you're right. If it's not converted, it's just starch and that's begging for a quick infection.
> 
> Just trying to find a way to do the conversion with the limited ingredients to hand...
> 
> ...



:unsure: Cant say ive heard of it being done with sugar?? Is there enzymes on sugar to convert the starch??

Sorry but im not sure if youll be able to do it without some pils or pale malt, someone else may know tho?


----------



## chappo1970 (21/10/09)

I'm not aware of any other way of converting rice other than in the mash as RevKnut suggested. Rice has no conversion power AFAIK so it needs a base malt for it's spare enzymes to help convert it.

The only other suggestion is get to a chinese/asian grocery shop and see if you can pick up some liquid rice malt that BribieG used in his Solly Cerveza?

Chappo


----------



## Bribie G (21/10/09)

Chappo said:


> I'm not aware of any other way of converting rice other than in the mash as RevKnut suggested. Rice has no conversion power AFAIK so it needs a base malt for it's spare enzymes to help convert it.
> 
> The only other suggestion is get to a chinese/asian grocery shop and see if you can pick up some liquid rice malt that BribieG used in his Solly Cerveza?
> 
> Chappo



SWMBOs Chinese branch of the family live at Beacon Hill and I'm sure she says there are Chinese shops at Chatswood so they don't need to go as far as Haymarket. What you are looking for is:





About two bucks a tub, and tastes a bit like malt extract but very gooey and almost toffee consistency. I like it because it gives a smoothness and I don't think it's completely fermentable so way better than just using dex or sugar whatever if making a lighter Cerveza style beer - in other words deliberately dumbing it down :lol:


----------



## BjornJ (21/10/09)

I've read with interest about brewing with rice, toying with the idea of a pilsner/rice mix, but not quite sure if I understand the different things I am reading..

1: Just boil the rice and chuck in. Some say this is a brilliant plan, others say the rice needs to be boiled in way more water than normal, that the rice should be milled, or forget the whole thing and buy flaked rice as it does not need to be boiled. I can't get flaked rice locally so would like to boil normal rice if this is an option.
2:Boiling grains? Some say to use 10-15% base malt in the rice and water when boiling it, to do something-or-other to the starches in order to ferment or at least get a clear beer. But boiling grains is bad, thinking about tannins from the husks. And the initial boil is to "gelatinise" the rice, not mash it (I think). So why is it necessary to add base malt to the rice boil?
3: Acid malt, good idea to add acid malt in a rice beer to reduce ph to get a clearer beer and because of the lack of base malt in %? 
4:How about rice puffs? I read on the box the other day at Coles, it is 91% rice, already cooked/puffed and contains some malt extract and "vitamins". Substitute boiling rice and/or malt with rice puffs in the mash? (have done this with corn flakes and it seems to work)



Recipe: how about a LDE/rice beer with no dark grains and a IBU of 20 from a 60-minute hop addition. No flavor/aroma hops.

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## brettprevans (21/10/09)

boil up the grain, then chuck it into the mash and mash as normal.

there's a few rice lagers on the database that could be easily converted to extract.
rice puffs would lack a lot of the starches you'd get from uncooked rice. 
Fourstar was advocating using chinese broken rice for extra efficency/sugars 
you need some malt and not just rice otherwise your making saki and not beer (differant yeasts needed of course but you get my drift)


----------



## Fourstar (21/10/09)

Fermented said:


> Are there alternative methods such as boiling the rice as say 1 Kg dry weight in 6 litres water with 500 gm sucrose? Or am I heading towards a rice-cider-beer abomination?



You need enzymatic activity to convert the starches in the rice to fermentables unfortunatly.

Oh BjornJ, simply cook the rice until its full ycooked (rice cooker is enough) break it up in your mash water, add the malt and do your standard sacchrification rest. If its above 30% of the grist, do a protein rest at <=55deg (closer to 55 the better) for 15 mins, then ramp to sacch temp for your standard 50 mins. 

Doesn't get much easier than that. You can play with pH, acidulated malt etc, the furthest i'd go for low mineral profile water <10ppm per mineral~, a small addition of CaCl is enough to drop the pH abit for correct mash conversion.

Cheers!


----------



## Supra-Jim (21/10/09)

Bjornj,

I used rice recently. I threw about 400gms of basmati rice into a pot with about 50% more water than i would normally use if cooking to eat it. I boiled this up till it was good and mushy. Then put it aside for an hour or so. When i mashed in, i added my milled grains to the tun first, then spooned in big chucks of this gluggy rice. Added my strike water as usual and gave it a real good stir with the mash paddle.

Once the mash tun was drained, i look into th grain bed, the rice was very evenly distributed through the grain bed.

The beer turned out very nice too!

Cheers SJ


----------



## Kleiny (21/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> rice puffs would lack a lot of the starches you'd get from uncooked rice.


 
Why? (the starches have not been converted to sugar and they have not been removed)

My belief is that rice puffs would be fine to use and they would have already undergone gelanisation during processing, meaning that you would not have to preboil them.


----------



## Fermented (21/10/09)

Bugger...

Oh well - so much for a quiet day in the home office. Looks like I will go to the Chinese supermarket(s) here in Chinawood... ooops... Chatswood.  Meh - 33C outdoors and I'm on foot. Oh well. 

And grab a few kilos of some base malt at the LHBS later so I can have a play.

Thanks for the help fellas!

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## brettprevans (21/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> rice puffs would lack a lot of the starches you'd get from uncooked rice.





Kleiny said:


> Why? (the starches have not been converted to sugar and they have not been removed)
> 
> My belief is that rice puffs would be fine to use and they would have already undergone gelanisation during processing, meaning that you would not have to preboil them.


sorry I missed out the question mark. It was a question i was posing not a statement.

edit:

here's another question....what would be the ratio of rice puffs to uncooked rice? ie 1kg of uncooked rice = x amount of rice puffs.


----------



## BjornJ (21/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> you need some malt and not just rice otherwise your making saki and not beer (differant yeasts needed of course but you get my drift)






Fourstar said:


> You need enzymatic activity to convert the starches in the rice to fermentables unfortunatly.





Are we talking about the initial "boil rice" stage or fermentation here?
Assuming here we are talking 0.5-1.0 kg of rice in an all grain or malt extract beer, so lots of malt in the mash.

I would assume as Rice Puffs were 91% rice we could either just use flaked rice in the recipe and divide the amount on 0.91 to get how much more Rice Puffs to use?

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## Maple (21/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> sorry I missed out the question mark. It was a question i was posing not a statement.
> 
> edit:
> 
> here's another question....what would be the ratio of rice puffs to uncooked rice? ie 1kg of uncooked rice = x amount of rice puffs.


I don't get you're question... 1 kg = 1 kg, volumewise, there would be a difference, not weight.


----------



## brettprevans (21/10/09)

Maple said:


> I don't get you're question... 1 kg = 1 kg, volumewise, there would be a difference, not weight.


would there be more rice in 1kg of uncooked rice than there woud be in 1kg of puffed rice? would you need need more puffed rice to equal the uncooked rice.

example. say there is 10,000 grains of rice in a 1kg packet of uncooked rice. would there be 10,000 grains of rice in 1kg of puffed rice? if they dont equal each other, how to equalise the ratio


----------



## Kleiny (21/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> sorry I missed out the question mark. It was a question i was posing not a statement.
> 
> edit:
> 
> here's another question....what would be the ratio of rice puffs to uncooked rice? ie 1kg of uncooked rice = x amount of rice puffs.


 
Without actually knowing i would say 1kg of rice would = 1kg of puffed rice as they both started of with the same extractable starches. (but i dont really know). Maybe somebody here has used it before or you will just have to experiment.

Puffed Rice
Water content (grams per 100g) 2.3
Calorie content of Food (kcals per 100g/3.5oz) 412
Protein content (grams per 100g) 8.4
Fat content (lipids) (grams per 100g) 1.5
Ash content (grams per 100g) 0.6
Carbohydrate content (grams per 100g) 87.2
Dietary Fiber content (grams per 100g) 0.5
Sugar content (grams per 100g) 0

Im thinking the only difference in weight would come from the water content between rice and puffed rice but i cant find an amount for the water content of rice.

Kleiny


----------



## Bribie G (21/10/09)

BjornJ said:


> Are we talking about the initial "boil rice" stage or fermentation here?
> Assuming here we are talking 0.5-1.0 kg of rice in an all grain or* malt extract beer,* so lots of malt in the mash.
> 
> ...........................
> ...



NO - we are talking about the _mash_. Back to basics:

Malted barley is mashed at a certain temperature when enzymes in the malted grain convert the starches in the grains to sugars that can be drained out and fermented. In most grain malt there is enough spare enzyme to also convert a proportion of 'neutral' grains such as rice or maize or even wheat, and likewise convert their starches into sugars. 

Malt extract is malted barley that has been mashed, the enzymes convert the starches to sugars which are drained off, boiled and then vacuum concentrated to form malt extract. In the case of Australian malt extracts the enzymes are long long gone which is why malt extract cannot convert rice or other grains, so you can't use plain rice in an all extract brew. 

Hope this clarifies :icon_cheers:


----------



## Fermented (21/10/09)

Same number of grains, massive volume difference and enormous price difference. 

Rice = $2 - $3 / kg for 'normal'. Puffed rice = heaps more (don't know - don't buy brekkie cereals).

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## brettprevans (21/10/09)

hmm well if the ratio is the same (lets assume it is). then why would we much about with dry rice? if puffs have already undergone gelatinization then you could just chuck them in the mash as per normal?

edit:
reason other than price. a 600g of homebrand rice puffs is likely to be about $6 I recon.


----------



## Kleiny (21/10/09)

Well their is also flaked rice which would be right to go due to gelatinisation during processing as well

I think if you wanted a specific breed of rice that would obviously not be puffed or flaked then you would have to do the boil yourself.

Also it is probably cheaper (definitely on the large scale which is why so many large breweries have separate cereal mashers)


----------



## chappo1970 (21/10/09)

Seriously? What is soooooo bloody hard about boiling some rice? :blink: Plus I have found some of your more aromatic rice species like jasmine impart a little subtle flavour with goes so well in my Aussie Lager.

It's like boiling some water just has some rice added to it... :huh: Christ I would hate to see some you guys try to make a cake?


----------



## Kleiny (21/10/09)

Chappo said:


> It's like boiling some water just has some rice added to it... :huh: Christ I would hate to see some you guys try to make a cake?



Its not so much about the boiling chappo its about seeing what options are available and what flavors you can get from the different forms.

as you said Jasmine rice gives something special and im sure puffed rice would add a different complexity.


----------



## brettprevans (21/10/09)

no ones saying that you cant some water chaps. we are just discussing. and the topic is for non AG. it might be simpler for a K&K/extract brewer just to make a 'cerial mash' from puffed rice. 

edit:
actually thinking about it, im not sure that either option is simple for a K&K/extract brewer. i think the only real option for K&K/extract brewer is pre made rice malt extract


I agree with the type of rice issue. my rice lager was a 50/50 jasmine and normal rice mix


----------



## BjornJ (21/10/09)

BribieG said:


> NO - we are talking about the _mash_. Back to basics:
> 
> Malted barley is mashed at a certain temperature when enzymes in the malted grain convert the starches in the grains to sugars that can be drained out and fermented. In most grain malt there is enough spare enzyme to also convert a proportion of 'neutral' grains such as rice or maize or even wheat, and likewise convert their starches into sugars.
> 
> ...




Ok, that makes sense.
So if using All Grain, no worries, boil rice and mash as normal, adding the rice to the mash?
But if using extract brewing it sounds like you have to add malt.


----------



## chappo1970 (21/10/09)

Kleiny said:


> Its not so much about the boiling chappo its about seeing what options are available and what flavors you can get from the different forms.
> 
> as you said Jasmine rice gives something special and im sure puffed rice would add a different complexity.




Fair point K.

I must admit I hadn't thought of that point.

Hmmmm? Wonder how black wild rice would go?


----------



## tdh (21/10/09)

But black wild rice isn't rice.

tdh


----------



## brettprevans (21/10/09)

Chappo said:


> Hmmmm? Wonder how black wild rice would go?


thought about that for a dark lager, porter or stout. but wild rice is bloody expensive.


----------



## Fourstar (21/10/09)

Kleiny said:


> Well their is also flaked rice which would be right to go due to gelatinisation during processing as well



Not to mention its around 6-8 bucks a kilo compared to around 4 bucks a kilo for everyday rice.



citymorgue2 said:


> thought about that for a dark lager, porter or stout. but wild rice is bloody expensive.


I was thinking that for a 'Black IPA' :icon_drool2:

Using 'Black' Sticky Rice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_rice


----------



## Fermented (21/10/09)

@BjornJ
It would need to be in effect a minimash. 

@ Chappo
If it's the rice where the grains are black, then they make a funny purple/red colour liquid when cooked too wet (like rice porridge style). Might be visually interesting in a beer.

If you're talking about the one with black hulls, it's not technically rice but is similar. Needs a lot of time to cook and even then its bowel cleansing power exceeds its taste.  

I'm going to stick with Koshihikari (Jap sushi) rice for a first outing then try some other kinds another time.

Cheers - Fermented.

EDIT: Fixed speeeling error.


----------



## chappo1970 (21/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> thought about that for a dark lager, porter or stout. but wild rice is bloody expensive.



Dark lager yes!



Fourstar said:


> Not to mention its around 6-8 bucks a kilo compared to around 4 bucks a kilo for everyday rice.
> 
> 
> I was thinking that for a 'Black IPA' :icon_drool2:
> ...



That's what I was thinking. Recently tried a black IPA made with CINMA (Sp.). God it was good tasted like a ballsy IPA but looked like a black lager. Awesome Rossco! :icon_drool2: 



Fermented said:


> @ Chappo
> If it's the rice where the grains are black, then they make a funny purple/red colour liquid when cooked too wet (like rice porridge style). Might be visually interesting in a beer.
> 
> If you're talking about the one with black hulls, it's not technically rice but is similar. Needs a lot of time to cook and even then its bowel cleansing power exceeds its taste.
> ...



All I can say is give it a go I reckon you will be more than presently surprised. Mind you it's had to go back once you have ventured down the rice path. Bit like Rye really?

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking of using the black/wild rice and Fermented I reckon your correct with the colouring but also the grainy/earthy flavour and aromas it could impart.

Chap Chap


----------



## Nick JD (21/10/09)

You can malt rice by itself - just add the pancreas of a cow into your mash. 

Or spit in it, a lot. 

Or you could malt the rice. I'm pretty sure it has amylase so it can convert its own starch into baby rice plant food.


----------



## Fermented (21/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> Or you could malt the rice. I'm pretty sure it has amylase so it can convert its own starch into baby rice plant food.



Yep - while the husk is still on it. Threshed and winnowed polished rice is good for eating, throwing at newly weds, stopping salt from clagging in the shaker, scrubbing the bottoms of odd-shaped decanters and that's about it without some enzymes. 

Gave up. Went for a walk. Found Bribie's famous rice malt for $1.21 a pot. Bingo.

Cheers - Fermented.


----------

