# Wheat Beers - How Do You Reduce Clove Flavours And Increase Banana Fla



## roller997 (10/4/10)

After doing quite a few wheat beers, I would appreciate help if someone provide me with a few pointers on how I can increase the banana / bubblegum esters and reduce the clove phenolics in my wheat beers?

Lately I have struggled to introduce enough banana and bubblegum flavours but I have had plenty of clove in my wheat beers. The first few were very nice and there were substantially less clove overtones on the wheat beer but lately the clover flavour seems to be dominating my wheats....

Having tried a commercial example recently and it highlights that what I am missing is some of the fruity flavours and my wheats are too strong on the clove / phenolic side. 
So, I am very keen to reduce the clove flavours and increase the banana / bubblegum flavours in my wheat beer.

For the past 12 wheat beers, I have used Wyeast 3333, 3068 and 3638 and I haven't been able to isolate a strain that is able to increase the esters while not increasing the phenolics.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what could I do to reduce clove and increase the banana & other flavours.

I love my wheat beers but if I can't reduce the clove flavour and increase the banana / bubble gum flavours, I might just have to stick to ales (not that this is a significant problem).


Thanks in advance.

Roller


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## Dazza_devil (10/4/10)

Interested to know about this too Roller.

Have you tried underpitching?
What temps and pitching rates have you tried for each specific yeast?


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## praxis178 (10/4/10)

Roller997 said:


> <snip>
> 
> For the past 12 wheat beers, I have used Wyeast 3333, 3068 and 3638 and I haven't been able to isolate a strain that is able to increase the esters while not increasing the phenolics.
> 
> ...



As I understand it the clove comes from the wheat and how it's mashed, you want to do a 10-15min 35C ferulic acid rest before rapidly raising the temp to the protein rest at ~50/52C. The longer at 35C the more pronounced the cloves should be. 

Now to get the banana/bubblegum esters just up the temp from ~18C for 3068 to around the 22C mark and there should be a huge jump in banana esters. 

I recently did a split batch on 3068 with one run at 17C and the other at 22C, the 17C one is clove/fruit where as the 22C one is bananas and gum with a hint of cloves (if you know to look for it), the wort for both was a single over sized batch that I split to two cubes..... 

Or you could do what Ross does and chuck a banana into the boil. h34r:


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## Screwtop (10/4/10)

Roller997 said:


> After doing quite a few wheat beers, I would appreciate help if someone provide me with a few pointers on how I can increase the banana / bubblegum esters and reduce the clove phenolics in my wheat beers?
> 
> Lately I have struggled to introduce enough banana and bubblegum flavours but I have had plenty of clove in my wheat beers. The first few were very nice and there were substantially less clove overtones on the wheat beer but lately the clover flavour seems to be dominating my wheats....
> 
> ...




Went through this same dilemma a couple of years ago. First Weizens, great banana and bubblegum. Studied the brewing of weizens and read all I could about brewing the style. Armed with this info and some assistance from Zwickel I began brewing some great weizens.............but........more clove and less banana and bubblegum.

My findings: Cloveyness/tartness is a feature of wheat. Reduce the amount of wheat from 60% to 50% or less. Weizen grist bill is usually Pils/wheat. Instead of pils use pale ale malt for a little more maltyness and sweetness. Up the OG to around 1.055 for a higher FG and again a little less dryness. Mash............single infusion no ferulic acid rest at 40odd this promotes the clove aroma. Also mash a little warmer 67 for 60 min again for a little sweetness. Keep bittering low at about 14IBU, use 3068, no starter fermented at 22C .

A timely post as my next brew is to be a nice banana/bubblegum/clove weizen brewed to suit my preference.

Screwy


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## Tony (10/4/10)

i use about 60 to 70% wheat but mash in at 52 deg for 10 min, then infuse up to 63 for 40 min, then infuse up to 71 for 20 min and mash out at this.

Ferment with 3068 at 21 to 22 deg and dont forget the blow off tube......... its messy stuff!

I was talking to Les the Weisguy a couple weeks back and he told me Bananna is actually a fault 

I was heart broken........ but i still love my bananna in my wheaty

cheers


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## praxis178 (10/4/10)

Tony said:


> i use about 60 to 70% wheat but mash in at 52 deg for 10 min, then infuse up to 63 for 40 min, then infuse up to 71 for 20 min and mash out at this.
> 
> Ferment with 3068 at 21 to 22 deg and dont forget the blow off tube......... its messy stuff!
> 
> ...




Last batch I did was 62% wheat, next one is planned for 66%.

Honestly I prefer the cooler fermented version (see above for details of my double batch split temp experiment), so much that I might run the next one around the 16C mark, with a slightly longer acid rest (10mins last time), and no decoction this time as it was a right royal PITA and as I can't really pick the difference to the ones where I didn't decoct....


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

Boagsy said:


> Interested to know about this too Roller.
> 
> Have you tried underpitching?
> What temps and pitching rates have you tried for each specific yeast?




I usually aim for a 42 liter batch (in my 46 liter fermenter) and I use a single packet of Wyeast with a 1.5 liter starter of SG 1.040. 
I suppose I could try to just pitch the yeast without a starter first but that would be under pitching by quite a bit more than recommended even for wheat beers.
I might give it a try next time and I will keep you posted if it makes a difference. 

In terms of fermentation temps - They were 22-24 degrees for the whole range of the yeasts I have tried, however last Feb I did hit 26 degrees and the beer did have a greater degree of clove flavour than other beers. 

I started a Weizenbock up at 18 degrees last Saturday and kept it at 20 for a while before it slowed down and I raised the temperature to 22. This was an attempt to decrease the clove and increase banana flavours so I will let you know if it worked.

Cheers

Roller


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## manticle (11/4/10)

I fermented my one and only weizen at 17 and seemed to pull a balance between the two. No underpitching as I don't believe stressing yeast is the best way to produce flavours. Also decocted and multi-stepped (3 step but single decoction only). Not sure my limited experience is enough to count for much though.


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

Thomas J. said:


> As I understand it the clove comes from the wheat and how it's mashed, you want to do a 10-15min 35C ferulic acid rest before rapidly raising the temp to the protein rest at ~50/52C. The longer at 35C the more pronounced the cloves should be.
> 
> Now to get the banana/bubblegum esters just up the temp from ~18C for 3068 to around the 22C mark and there should be a huge jump in banana esters.
> 
> ...


I know that there is a means to increase the clove flavours but my mashing regime is usually 65 degrees for 60 minutes (as per some of the clonebrew recipes) and that has produced some nice banana flavoured beers. So with that in mind, I shouldn't be hitting the ferulic acid rest at all and the 
Thanks for sharing the fermentation experience. That is excellent news - By the sounds of it, my brew that got a bit too hot might have been a bit of a mis-hap and my Weizenbock might have even less banana flavours than if I let it run at a higher temperature.
Chucking bananas in isn't quite what I had in mind - I think I will experiement some more with fermentation temperatures and mashing techniques before I resort to that method. I had a 3-4 beers that I was very happy with where the clove was in the background and the banana / bubblegum were a bit more powerful. I should have taken more notes at the time.

Thanks

Roller


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## Dazza_devil (11/4/10)

I've only done 1 brew with 3638 so I have nothing to compare. I pitched around a 2 litre starter at high krausen into 24 litres of 1.050 Dunkelweissen @19 degrees and held it at that. This brew had a nice hint of banana and a touch of spice at the end. There was a lot of yeast in suspension after ferment. I'm not sure if the yeast got stresed when the airlock blocked up with krausen. I came home to find the airlock lid blown off and krausen on the roof of my fermention fridge. Perhaps the pressure build up caused a higher than normal CO2 concentration in the wort, stressing the yeast.


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

manticle said:


> I fermented my one and only weizen at 17 and seemed to pull a balance between the two. No underpitching as I don't believe stressing yeast is the best way to produce flavours. Also decocted and multi-stepped (3 step but single decoction only). Not sure my limited experience is enough to count for much though.



Manticle,
Thanks for that.
As I mentioned, the most clove I ever got was with a brew around Black Saturday last year and hence I was leaning towards a lower fermentation temperature.
The chap who founded Wyeast when he was in Melbourne a few years ago suggested that with wheat beer, it is the only one that you should not create a starter for. I have read that underpitching is very common to get the interesting flavours, however folks at the very traditional Schneider Weisse pitch at close to normal rates.

Thanks

Roller


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

Boagsy said:


> I've only done 1 brew with 3638 so I have nothing to compare. I pitched around a 2 litre starter at high krausen into 24 litres of 1.050 Dunkelweissen @19 degrees and held it at that. This brew had a nice hint of banana and a touch of spice at the end. There was a lot of yeast in suspension after ferment. I'm not sure if the yeast got stresed when the airlock blocked up with krausen. I came home to find the airlock lid blown off and krausen on the roof of my fermention fridge. Perhaps the pressure build up caused a higher than normal CO2 concentration in the wort, stressing the yeast.



I have read that there is a lot less phenolic and ester flavours produced in closed fermenters and if the pressure is applied, that is more likley to reduce them even further. There was a table published in one of the books which suggested that wider rather than taller open fermenters are the best for wheat beer.
Mind you, not having a dedicated brewery available where you can control what flies around and tries to dive into the fermenter, I am not game enough to do open fermentation....


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

Tony said:


> i use about 60 to 70% wheat but mash in at 52 deg for 10 min, then infuse up to 63 for 40 min, then infuse up to 71 for 20 min and mash out at this.
> 
> Ferment with 3068 at 21 to 22 deg and dont forget the blow off tube......... its messy stuff!
> 
> ...



Tony,
Banana being a fault - I love those faults - How do I get more of them in my wheat beer.

Having read a few books and having sampled some of the more traditional examples of wheat beers, that would indicate that quite some literature and most of the top breweries introduce the faults I like  
Erdinger, Paulaner, Schneider, Weihestephan and to a lesser degree Schoefferhofer have these characteristics. Some of the dedicated wheat beer breweries in the outskirts of Munich had these flavours so 
Even the BJCP guidelines mention that this should be present in the style.
I suppose that the banana / bubblegum flavours might not have been intended to be there from the outset but I agree with you - Bring them on in my wheaty.....

Cheers 

Roller


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

Screwtop said:


> Went through this same dilemma a couple of years ago. First Weizens, great banana and bubblegum. Studied the brewing of weizens and read all I could about brewing the style. Armed with this info and some assistance from Zwickel I began brewing some great weizens.............but........more clove and less banana and bubblegum.
> 
> My findings: Cloveyness/tartness is a feature of wheat. Reduce the amount of wheat from 60% to 50% or less. Weizen grist bill is usually Pils/wheat. Instead of pils use pale ale malt for a little more maltyness and sweetness. Up the OG to around 1.055 for a higher FG and again a little less dryness. Mash............single infusion no ferulic acid rest at 40odd this promotes the clove aroma. Also mash a little warmer 67 for 60 min again for a little sweetness. Keep bittering low at about 14IBU, use 3068, no starter fermented at 22C .
> 
> ...


Screwy,
It sounds like you went through exactly what I went through... The first few were superb examples and as I got better at brewing ales and other beer, the wheat beers lost the flavours I love them for.
I usually use between 45-55% of wheat in my grain bill. I would think that my later malt bills might have had a bigger percentage of wheat than I originally had. I did however try to use an identical recipe a few times and never got the same banana flavours as I originally got so I don't think the malt bill is affecting the clove vs banana flavour balance too much?

Thanks

Roller


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## roller997 (11/4/10)

Thomas J. said:


> Last batch I did was 62% wheat, next one is planned for 66%.
> 
> Honestly I prefer the cooler fermented version (see above for details of my double batch split temp experiment), so much that I might run the next one around the 16C mark, with a slightly longer acid rest (10mins last time), and no decoction this time as it was a right royal PITA and as I can't really pick the difference to the ones where I didn't decoct....


Thomas,
Thanks for that - I will try the Weizenbock in a few months after everything settles out.
I don't like decoction either, as it is too much of a PITA so I would agree there. 
The best wheats I have made were simple 60 minute mash at 65.5 degrees. 
Fermentation was 22 degrees for that one. 
As I mentioned, I had the strongest clove flavour in the beer that rocketed through fermentation during last Feb in Melbourne when we had a few surprise 40+ degree days and I didn't have my laundry aircon on for one day which let the fermenter creep up to 26. 
If your cooler fermentation version produces less banana flavours, then I would say that your tastebuds and mine don't agree on that one.

Love the banana, not so keen on the clove B) 

Cheers

Roller


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## Screwtop (11/4/10)

Roller997 said:


> Screwy,
> It sounds like you went through exactly what I went through... The first few were superb examples and as I got better at brewing ales and other beer, the wheat beers lost the flavours I love them for.
> I usually use between 45-55% of wheat in my grain bill. I would think that my later malt bills might have had a bigger percentage of wheat than I originally had. I did however try to use an identical recipe a few times and never got the same banana flavours as I originally got so I don't think the malt bill is affecting the clove vs banana flavour balance too much?
> 
> ...




Probably should have explained in more detail re mashing. As I said, as I read more, learnt more my Weizens improved (remember IsoAmyl is a fault if it is to the fore). I began doing the traditional 42, 2, 72 mash regime and ........... more clove, no matter what fermentation regime. Changed back to single infusion, no ferulic adid and no B rest, and back came the banana, but more so when I raised the og back into the 50's. My weizens were finishing nice and low and dry at OG's in the 40's, then the clove was to the fore. With OG's in the 50's and single infusion mash at the warmer end the beer was a little sweeter, allowing the banana and bubblegum to shine.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## newguy (12/4/10)

I brewed my first weizen (w/ 3068) when I was still pretty "green" (brewing rookie) and it was fantastic with a nice banana/clove balance. Every effort after that resulted in only cloves, no banana. I was at my wit's end.

Then I happened to meet Dave Logsdon, the founder/president of Wyeast. He was giving a presentation at a homebrew competition and his talk touched on the 3068 strain. He told us that if you do NOT oxygenate your wort with that strain, that it will produce the banana ester. Too much oxygen (and it doesn't take much) and it won't produce the banana ester at all. Well that certainly made sense with what I had experienced. When I was a rookie, I didn't oxygenate worth a damn, nor did I step up my starters particularly well. As I brewed more, I pitched more yeast and oxygenated my wort better - which coincidentally resulted in no banana and all clove.

The next weizen I brewed I did not oxygenate/splash my wort at all prior to pitching. [I still pitched a medium sized starter because the double whammy of underpitching and no oxygen scared me.] .....And I finally got the banana back.

Note that if I repitch directly onto the yeast cake of that first batch, the second doesn't have much banana at all.

Hope this helps. :beer: 

ps. Keep your fermentation temperature below 19-20C for best results.


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## Screwtop (12/4/10)

newguy said:


> Note that if I repitch directly onto the yeast cake of that first batch, the second doesn't have much banana at all.



+1 to that

Screwy


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## roller997 (12/4/10)

Screwtop said:


> Probably should have explained in more detail re mashing. As I said, as I read more, learnt more my Weizens improved (remember IsoAmyl is a fault if it is to the fore). I began doing the traditional 42, 2, 72 mash regime and ........... more clove, no matter what fermentation regime. Changed back to single infusion, no ferulic adid and no B rest, and back came the banana, but more so when I raised the og back into the 50's. My weizens were finishing nice and low and dry at OG's in the 40's, then the clove was to the fore. With OG's in the 50's and single infusion mash at the warmer end the beer was a little sweeter, allowing the banana and bubblegum to shine.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



That is interesting that the fermentation didn't affect the flavour profile too much. 
I will stick to a single infusion mash regime and make sure that the OG sits in the mid 50's. In terms of temperatures, I will go for 67 next time around and hopefully that will get me the desired results.

Thanks 

Roller


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## roller997 (12/4/10)

newguy said:


> I brewed my first weizen (w/ 3068) when I was still pretty "green" (brewing rookie) and it was fantastic with a nice banana/clove balance. Every effort after that resulted in only cloves, no banana. I was at my wit's end.
> Then I happened to meet Dave Logsdon, the founder/president of Wyeast. He was giving a presentation at a homebrew competition and his talk touched on the 3068 strain. He told us that if you do NOT oxygenate your wort with that strain, that it will produce the banana ester. Too much oxygen (and it doesn't take much) and it won't produce the banana ester at all. Well that certainly made sense with what I had experienced. When I was a rookie, I didn't oxygenate worth a damn, nor did I step up my starters particularly well. As I brewed more, I pitched more yeast and oxygenated my wort better - which coincidentally resulted in no banana and all clove.
> 
> The next weizen I brewed I did not oxygenate/splash my wort at all prior to pitching. [I still pitched a medium sized starter because the double whammy of underpitching and no oxygen scared me.] .....And I finally got the banana back.
> ...


Newguy,
I think you might have hit the nail on the head with what my issue is. I believe it was Dave who held a session in Melbourne where he went through a demo of making a yeast starter and this was when he specifically mentioned that the yeast strains are the only ones you don't do a starter for. Brewing double batches, I thought that my yeast is going to struggle enough, even with a standard starter.

At the outset, I had slightly longer boil times and I didn't splash the wort at all on its way into the fermenter. A few brews into the game, since most literature suggests to aerate the wort, I started to splash the wort on the way into the fermenter. This worked well with other beers but it may have had a detrimental effect on my wheat beers.

I don't normally re-pitch onto the yeast cake of the first batch so that shouldn't be a problem.

I think I will have to pop an Activator pack next week to get ready for a brew for the weekend after next to try this out.


In summary from what I have taken onboard from all the posters:
1. Don't oxygenate the wort (longer boil times might assist in driving out more oxygen) 
2. Aim at mid 50's OG (not sure if higher OG will make the yeast struggle more and produce more banana flavours)
3. Single Infusion regiment with temperature between 66-67
4. Use small starter (1 Liter) so the yeast has to work a bit harder
5. Keep fermentation at 19-20 degrees (by the sounds of it, the banana flavours are not a byproduct of faster fermentation at higher temps, unlike for lagers)


Thanks


Roller


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## warra48 (12/4/10)

newguy said:


> I brewed my first weizen (w/ 3068) when I was still pretty "green" (brewing rookie) and it was fantastic with a nice banana/clove balance. Every effort after that resulted in only cloves, no banana. I was at my wit's end.
> 
> Then I happened to meet Dave Logsdon, the founder/president of Wyeast. He was giving a presentation at a homebrew competition and his talk touched on the 3068 strain. He told us that if you do NOT oxygenate your wort with that strain, that it will produce the banana ester. Too much oxygen (and it doesn't take much) and it won't produce the banana ester at all. Well that certainly made sense with what I had experienced. When I was a rookie, I didn't oxygenate worth a damn, nor did I step up my starters particularly well. As I brewed more, I pitched more yeast and oxygenated my wort better - which coincidentally resulted in no banana and all clove.
> 
> ...



That goes a long way to explaining why the best Hefeweizen I ever brewed was one where I didn't aerate the batch at all. I had built up a good sized starter, and chilled it and the batch to 17.5C. I poured off all the starter wort, and fed a couple of litres of the batch on top of the starter. It was at high kraeusen with about hour, and I then pitched the starter. I fermented at 17.5C all the way.
It had a lovely balance between clove and subtle banana, with terrific wheaty mouthfeel and flavour.


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## Nick JD (12/4/10)

Slightly OT, but how do the breweries manage to make their weizens taste great six months after they are bottled. My weizens are best as soon as carbonated and then they lose all those interesting flavours over the next few weeks.

After a month or two they are still nice - but not like a six month old Shoferhoffer or a Paulaner.


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## roller997 (13/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> Slightly OT, but how do the breweries manage to make their weizens taste great six months after they are bottled. My weizens are best as soon as carbonated and then they lose all those interesting flavours over the next few weeks.
> 
> After a month or two they are still nice - but not like a six month old Shoferhoffer or a Paulaner.



I have a few bottles left which are from October 2009 and they taste much better when I include the sediment than when I serve them almost clear. 
For some reason the beers have a lesser emphasis on clove and they seem to have retained their faint banana flavour when the sediment is added. 
To me, that particular brew tastes better now than it did in December, 4-5 weeks after bottle conditioning.

I generally don't consume fast enough to get through a batch in a couple of months, so I even have a 14 month old wheat beer but that is beyond its prime by quite a bit. It is drinkable but it is not anywhere near as enjoyable as it was in its younger days. My wheat beers are usually closer to 5.5%ABV so perhaps that helps them to be a bit more resilient as well?
With the two examples you quoted, it certainly would not be due to preservatives unless they have a different brew process for making "Reinheitsgebot" exempt beers for export.

Mind you, the commercial examples are not always all that great when they get closer to their best by date. 


Cheers

Roller


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## mje1980 (18/11/12)

Gotta love the search function!!. Last few i've brewed have had lots of clove, but not too much banana/bubblegum. Going to try and aerate as little as possible, skip the starter and ferment around 20c. I did the F rest, so i should be right for some clove. Hopefully it'll have all 3!


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## droid (18/11/15)

excuse me


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## pajs (19/11/15)

Whereas I'm really not keen on the banana at all. Happy with clove in wheaty-rye things, very happy to get pear & plum if using a Belgian yeast on these, but try and avoid the dreaded banana.


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## shmang (19/11/15)

If you haven't already have a listen to Basic Brewing radio pod casts about Hefewiezen, In particular the October 29, 2015 (Hefeweizen Fermentation Temperature Experiment) & August 20, 2015 (Hefeweizen Pitching Rate Experiment) episodes.
Some good info.


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## Matplat (30/11/15)

Just remembered I had this...

All about bananas... 

View attachment Wheat_beer_article_for_NB.pdf


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## Matplat (30/11/15)

And this


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