# 7hour Acid Rest, Now Ph4.8 - Just Continue With Mash? Using 100% Pale



## Bandito (5/12/09)

So I have a Reverse Osmosis water filter that today made water at about 8.1pH. I like pilsner beer and this is my third AG brew. Previously without an acid rest I got about 5.4pH using a ph meter.


This is the first time I tried an acid rest at 40 deg C and did it just to see what would happen. I will cut a long storey short and add a full blog at the end of this post as time permits.

At the moment I am 8 hours and 35 minutes into the mash. 

I did an acid rest at 38 to 40 deg C for 7 hours. at the 6 hour and 10 minute mark the mash changed and became very cloudy and the pH came down drastically. I am currently at about 4.8pH and doing a long protease rest which is supposed to break up large proteins that form hase - it has worked and the cloudiness has gone.

The question now is do I just continue the mash at 60 deg C then 70 deg C as normal or do I increase the longth of time because of the low pH (4.8 instead of 5.2)?

Help please! I have 8.5kg of BB pils in a 40L pot that is waiting for a temp change any minute.

Latest update: at 8h 55mins after starting (1h 53mins after starting protease rest I lifted the lid on the mash tun and all of the froth has gone and only a few grains are left on top, the wort is all but clear - another drastic change!)

Bandito


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## MHB (5/12/09)

I suspect that the Lactobacillus bacteria you have been lovingly culturing for the last 7 hours have finally overcome the natural buffering capacity of the mash and are generating free Lactic Acid into the mash water; that accounts for the low pH.

Sorry I am confused what are you trying to accomplish with such a novel mash regime?

MHB


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## jonocarroll (5/12/09)

I'll leave detailed comment to someone who may better understand what it is you're doing, but I'm curious about your remarks of wort cloudiness in the mash - by cloudiness do you mean that looking down on the mash the liquid looks clear? If so, surely that's just the suspended particles dropping out. I didn't think that wort cloudiness _in_ the mash was of any concern, and I thought that stirring all those particles up was a good idea.

I've certainly never heard of such a long acid rest. Perhaps you need to use some buffer, or just acidulated malt?

I will comment though that fully modified malts don't need a protein rest at all, in fact it's detrimental because those protein chains are a critical component of head formation and stability - don't be surprised if your resulting beer is thin and headless.

Actually - I am intrigued enough to ask; where did you get the idea of such a long mash schedule?


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## Bandito (5/12/09)

MHB said:


> I suspect that the Lactobacillus bacteria you have been lovingly culturing for the last 7 hours have finally overcome the natural buffering capacity of the mash and are generating free Lactic Acid into the mash water; that accounts for the low pH.
> 
> Sorry I am confused what are you trying to accomplish with such a novel mash regime?
> 
> MHB




Thats what I susspect too. I am trying to accomplish a traditional pilsner, but bviously I went too far and ended up making a sour mash. The sourness taste has reduced in the past 3 hours.

To answer Quantum brewer's question, the John Palmer book states on this page: http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

"Pale lager malt is rich in phytin, an organic phosphate containing calcium and magnesium. Phytase breaks down phytin into insoluble calcium and magnesium phosphates and phytic acid. The process lowers the pH by removing the ion buffers and producing this weak acid. This stage is known as the Acid Rest but it is not used nowadays. *It can take several hours* for this enzyme to lower the mash pH to the desired 5.0 - 5.5 range. Today, through knowledge of water chemistry and appropriate mineral additions, proper mash pH ranges can be achieved from the outset without needing an acid rest."

By wort cloudiness I am referring to a freaky change in cloudiness without stirring. like I stirred then left it for 15 mins or so and took an sg and ph sample, then came back an hour later and took another sample without stirring and lo and behold it was a cloudy as hell! I was like WTF!

Still I need an answer - I am planning on doing one more rest at 153 deg F 67 degC which from the following quote from JP is a compromise temp for beta and alpha amylase rests. "The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153F. This is a compromise between the two tempe
ratures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 158F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best at 140F. The mash liquification function of alpha amylase is effective at temperatures as low as 120F." Quoted from http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

Edit: And I do not want to use any 'mineral additions'. What I need is an enzymatic process that increases pH - any ideas? otherwise I will just increase times of the 67 degC rest - infact about to start now. 67 degC in 20 mins from time of post edit. Oh, and thanks for your replys, they did help a great deal. I learnt that this isnt done normally


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## MHB (6/12/09)

Mate while you're learning first rule should be KISS.
If you just mash in at 65-67 Co, keep it there for 1-1 hours and start running off slowly, you will make better beer than what I suspect you will get from this brew.
At its most basic beer really is very simple, get the basics right then build your knowledge and skills.

Luck with the brewing.
MHB


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## Bandito (6/12/09)

Thats similar to my first (last) two AG brews, but last one mashed at 71C (just an error in temp calcs). Since I wanted to try brewing a 100% base malt as opposed to adding carapils like I had before I figured I would try this. So an update, I have heated to 68C and will keep it at that for mabee 2 hrs, awww, 1.5 hrs mabee. it is getting late but I planned for it - sort of... I have one more becks beer left and then I will have to delve into my first AG which was a 10L batch and has been conditioning in the fridge for 5 days. I'll chuck it in the soda strean and the results should help me with my next question reguarding hops. I only have 90gm of sazz hops but also 100gm hallertau and 50gm goldings. I wont use goldings in this as I think it is for ales but I am a newbee so correct me if I am wrong.

I am thinking 50gm hallertau and 50gm sazz at 90mins, then 25gm hallertau and 40gm sazz at 60mins, them 25gm hallertau at 5mins. havent put that into beersmith yet but will before doing. I am a but wary of using hallertau, I would prefer to use all sazz but until I try my first AG brew I wont know.


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## clean brewer (6/12/09)

OMFG.... :blink: 




Dont read into it too much just yet....

:icon_cheers: CB


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## Bandito (6/12/09)

Yea, I am having a good laugh at that! I kept the last two simple, and just sat down with my first sip of my first AG brew just as I hit refresh. Going to take a while to get the commercial taste out of my mouth. It tastes clean as. Initially there is hoppiness, but no diacetyl due to brewing at 9C. I think I put all the hops in at 0mins. interesting nonetheless. Which is what I am doing now - one opposite to the next.

The question is: how long do I need to steep at 67C with a 4.8pH mash? 1.5h so far, I suppose I should determine the answer on the sg?


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## Hogshead (6/12/09)

An iodine test will tell you when conversion is complete.


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## bigfridge (6/12/09)

Bandito said:


> So I have a Reverse Osmosis water filter that today made water at about 8.1pH.



Bandito,

Could I ask why you are using RO water ?

To my knowledge there is no water in Oz that is not sutable for brewing as-is. Even in the USA where many people draw water from wells (and hence have RO filters on their house supply) it is recommended that brewing liquor be taken from before the filter.

I would echo the KISS advocates advice that you just go for a simple single infusion mash. Just remember that 'beer wants to be made' - the brewer just needs to keep out of its way.

HTH,

Dave


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## Bandito (6/12/09)

I used my last iodine swab on a cut a few months back. but anyway I left the mash overnight. It now tastes sour so I guess I am making a sour pilsner! It cooled down to 49C so far and just heating some sparge water. pH is 5.0, and sg is 1.053. I am about to rack two other 20L pilsner batches in the fridge, I think I might add a few liters of this to one of them. The sourness reminds me of becks flavor, only heaps more sour.

I am using RO water because thats what I drink and cook with so I dont see why I shouldnt brew with it too. I was trying to create a 100% base malt pilsner and read that pilsner has very clean water so RO seemed well suited, but I wanted to achieve the proper pH which led to this sour mash. I realise now that the correct ph would have been achieved after 2.5 hours acid rest when it was 5.6pH. It took until 5 hours to get to 5.4, teking it to the 7.5 hour mark was a mistake, but seeing the mash change as the latic acid fermentation started was worth it.


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## hughyg (6/12/09)

single infusion with a tbs of pH5.2 would have got what you want i think.


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## bigfridge (6/12/09)

Bandito said:


> I am using RO water because thats what I drink and cook with so I dont see why I shouldnt brew with it too.



Well one good reason - you are not a yeast cell or a grain enzyme - they all need the salts that your RO system strips out.

Pilsen water is actually deficient for brewing (too soft) so this is why the long lagering period was traditionally needed.

It is fine to use RO water - but only as a base. You then need to rebuild the ionic concentrations to produce the conditions needed in the mash, boil and fermentation.

Unless you have a good knowledge of water chemistry, my advice for a beginning brewer would be to forget all about it as it is well down on the list of priorities. Once you have got the basics of mashing, sparging and boiling under control - then you can get benefits out of playing with your water.

To salvage this brew you should be adding a T spoon of Gypsum or Calcium Chloride to the mash or boil otherwise you are going to be calling back here for advice when you hit trouble at each stage.

David


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## Jazzafish (6/12/09)

I think you missed the point to the John Palmer book. I believe his mention of acid rests were simply there to explain what happens at different temperatures of mashing, not what is required. As mentioned before, a mash in at 65 to 66*C is all that is required with modern malt, as the modern malting process has taken care of all that for you. After an hour rest at this temp, a sparge at 75 to 78*C (aka rinse) is used to collect the fermentables you created by mashing at this temperature.

Ph of the mash is important in some respects, but the lengths you have taken to achieve it is bordering insanity. You can get close enough to make a good brew without even considering it, as most australian water and grain combinations will convert within or close enough to the ph range needed. If you are still worried about the ph, get some ph stablizer. It works.

I also would like to state my belief that your RO water is not suitable without adding hardness. Again, Australian water is very good at brewing lagers. My water supply is only a little harder than pilsen water. No need to touch it.


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## jayse (6/12/09)

I'll be interested in how this beer comes up, just out of morbid curiosity.


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## Bandito (6/12/09)

In this page of the JP book: http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

"Pale lager malt is rich in phytin, an organic phosphate containing calcium and magnesium. Phytase breaks down phytin into insoluble calcium and magnesium phosphates and phytic acid."

So would that mean that the acid rest produced calcium and magnesium. Sure I took it too far by 5 hours when sour fermentation took place but hey.

Well, I finnished about an hour ago. 32.5 hours must be some sort of record in stupidity, but it was fun. I do have good chemistry knowledge, got to learn a bit about enzymes though.

ended up with 34 litres final boil volume + 8 extra

75gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 90mins
50gm hallertau 3% @ 60mins
15gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 5mins

Wyeast 2278 chech pils yeast slurry pitched @ ~25C (about 500mL in each 17L fermenter - stuffed up here, only needed 160mL - probably going to need a blowoff tube, but there is plenty of headroom)
Airated for 15 mins with just an air tube.
OG 1.051
OpH 4.7

Planning on primary for 1 week @ 10C, secondary for 1 week @ 10C, lager 2 to 4 weeks over christmas @ ~2C.
Bottle and store for 3 to 12 months.


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## peas_and_corn (6/12/09)




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## manticle (6/12/09)

My chemistry knowledge is not so good (I have a very basic understanding around high school level but more recently attained) but I do know that you can make good beer by soaking cracked grains in water of a certain temp for an hour. I did a step mash/decoction mash recently that turned out well (and incorporated a ferulic acid rest) but the whole process added an extra hour or so to the total brewing time. Yours seems excessive.

Chemistry analysis aside, what was your expected outcome when deciding to do this and do you think you've achieved it?

Interested in people having a go at different ideas - just curious as to your beginning hypothesis.


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## Bandito (6/12/09)

Well, I wanted to make a chech pilsner using wyeast 2278. But also wanted to experiment a bit to see where it would go. So with no real recipe, just limited by the ingredients I had, I started thinking of doing a 3 step mash. I only planned for 30mins at each step, but when I was figuring out what temp to start at I chose 40C and it went from there. I wanted to do it like I cook, just on a wing and a prayer with a bit of the muppets chef thrown in for good measure.

I had fun, got in a bit of practice and learnt a bit, so I think I got what I wanted out of it.


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## manticle (6/12/09)

If you enjoyed then I'm no-one to tell you you shouldn't. However knowing what you're doing and what to expect is the basis of succesful experimentation most of the time (including cooking). 

Anyway maybe you'll make a delicious sour beer so if it doesn't turn out like you expected then age it in a non-plastic vessel and maybe flavour it with some oak or fruit.

Next time though I'd recommend a mash that takes place in less than 30 hours.


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## Synthetase (7/12/09)

If I recall correctly, the whole point of the acid rest was because the soft water in Pilsen wouldn't allow the mash pH to get low enough for conversion without it. It does seem pointless to repeat that schedule if you don't have the problem in the first place. 



manticle said:


> If you enjoyed then I'm no-one to tell you you shouldn't. However knowing what you're doing and what to expect is the basis of succesful experimentation most of the time (including cooking).
> 
> Anyway maybe you'll make a delicious sour beer so if it doesn't turn out like you expected then age it in a non-plastic vessel and maybe flavour it with some oak or fruit.
> 
> Next time though I'd recommend a mash that takes place in less than 30 hours.



Seconded


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## Bandito (7/12/09)

Actually, the beer that I eventually want to make is a cross between becks and bitburger. Becks has a very slight sourness that I read somewhere ages ago might be due to the green bottle letting in some light. After this I suspect that mabee its a tiny bit of sourness, mabee resulting from this process on a much smaller scale. Reading up on sour beers / belgium beers yesterday, it seems that souring a small batch overnight and adding it to the main batch the next day is one method. I think mabee a 2.5 hour acid rest of 5% of the grainbill added to the main mash just might be the go to getting that tiny bit of sourness I am after.

Now I just need to get on with learning to do it properly. Once thats done I can come back to this.


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## QldKev (7/12/09)

hughyg said:


> single infusion with a tbs of pH5.2 would have got what you want i think.




This is all I do.

BUT I am really interested in how this goes. By going to this extreme the outcome will display something that we don't normally get in our beers. Good or Bad, it is an experiment and without it we would never evolve. 

So I say 'Good Work' and keep us posted on how it progresses.

QldKev


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## kirem (7/12/09)

If you want to start down the brewing water chemistry path, then download JP's water spreadsheet from his how to brew web site.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

One of the main benefits of how to brew is, JP has a great way of explaining some of the more tricky parts of brewing like water chemistry.

Another good source of brewing information including water and pH information is;

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page


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## Bandito (7/12/09)

Thanks guys, I am quite certain it will be horrible! But miracles do happen. My first AG is very nice indeed - just what I was trying to make.

Full brew record follows - forgive me if it is a bit excessive.... I will make a graph of the acidity and SG tomorrow. Checkout the huge SG at the 370 minure mark from only 40C, I didnt know that was possible.

T(time count up)=0mins Acid rest @ 40C started @ 2:10pm Saturday 05-12-2009

8.5kg BB pils malt from craftbrewer

Mash water pH = ~ 8.1pH,

Approx. 26 Litres strike water before adding grist

T=55mins 3:05pm After 55 mins of heating water temp = 39C Added grist.
T=76mins pH=5.8 (after rinsing once with wort (calibrated with buffer just before taking sample).
Tasted watery with slight taste of grain very light color.
Did not stir before taking sample. Have not stirred since starting acid rest.
T=146mins 4:36pm Temp=38C
Heated and Stirred for about 2 mins to 40C T=148mins
T=157mins 4:47pm Temp=40C pH=5.6
T=247mins Stirred. weird white gunk with a gel constincy came up from the front left side of the pot.
Tasted floury (like flour) with a slight sourness but not as sour as sample taken at 157mins.
T=252mins Temp=39C SG=1.024 @ 34C (SG temp taken with thermocouple type k probe)
T=303mins pH=5.4 (rinsed ph meter with wort 3 times (to get rid of ph7.0 buffer)
Particals had settled out of the wort.
T=349mins Opened up mash tun to see the mash had changed! 
The froth on top had doubled! 
Something is happening I think! I suspect some sort of fermentation. Latic acid Mabee?
Will wait till T=360mins to check pH.
T=370mins Temp=38.5C pH=5.0 after 3 rinses, SG=1.034 @ 35C 
Before only a few bits of grain were on the surface and sample color was very light anber
in color and just a bit cloudy. Now it is completely cloudy ~8.5 out of 10,
2 out of 10 previously. The mash has changed!
T=380mins Stirred. This stir was easy as! The grist has lifted off the bottom and become
one with the wort. There seems to be air in the wort. No longer hard to stir.
Taste is creamy sour (not unlike sour cream), not pleasant, net beer, not malt,
but not unpleasant.
T=422mins pH=4.8 Raised temp to 51C.I think I added water to ~36L. Added ~10L @ ~70C
which raised temp about 5 or 6C.
T=428mins (Need > 52.2C (126F) to stop protease acid rest and <54.4C (130F) to avoid
beta amylase rest).
T=436 temp=53.3C (128F)
T=450mins SG=1.032 @37C pH=4.6
Tastes a bit sweet, cloudiness has gone, supprisingly clearish. 4 out of 10 cloudiness
mabee 3.5/10 (pH meter changed reading to 4.7).
T=456mins 9:46pm
T=617mins SG=1.034 @41C
Tastes very sweet and quite malty. looks amber, not cloudy at all!. Only about 30
grains on top, no froth.
T=636mins Started increasing temp
T=648mins Temp=56C
T=650mins Temp=57C
T=652mins Temp=58.5C
T=654.5mins Temp=60C
T=657mins Temp=61.5C
T=659.5mins Temp=63C
T=701.5mins Temp=64C
T=710mins Temp=68C
T=776mins SG=1.044
T=780mins 62C Started reheat
T=790mins 67C


T=1245mins Temp=49C SG=1.046 pH=5.0
T=1384mins Lauter started Temp=48C SG=1.057 pH4.9
T=1429mins=23h49mins=159pm
T=1516mins=3:42pm sunday Lauter finnished
Second lauterings tased mildly sweet with no detectable sourness

Bg=1.0405 @39C pH=5.0 Boil volume ~37.4L
Started heat
T=1625mins Boil started

75gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 90mins
50gm hallertau 3% @ 60mins
15gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 5mins
ended up with 34 litres final boil volume + ~8L extra lauterings (this unused portion started at SG=1.044 but never checked final SG.

Wyeast 2278 chech pils yeast slurry pitched @ ~25C (about 300 to 500mL in each 17L fermenter - stuffed up here, only needed 160mL havent needed a blow off tube yet, but there is plenty of headroom)
Airated for 15 mins with just an air tube.
OG 1.051
OpH 4.7

Planning on primary for 1 week @ 10C, secondary for 1 week @ 10C, lager 2 to 4 weeks over christmas @ ~2C. (might ferment this for longer as much of the starch seemed to be converted during the protease acid rest.
Bottle and store for 3 to 12 months (half a million minutes!)


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## manticle (8/12/09)

Is 26 litres your pre-boil volume, post boil volume or strike water?


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## paulwolf350 (8/12/09)

Bandito said:


> Thanks guys, I am quite certain it will be horrible! But miracles do happen. My first AG is very nice indeed - just what I was trying to make.
> 
> Full brew record follows - forgive me if it is a bit excessive.... I will make a graph of the acidity and SG tomorrow. Checkout the huge SG at the 370 minure mark from only 40C, I didnt know that was possible.
> 
> ...




WOW


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## Bandito (8/12/09)

A graph of ph versus time at between 38c and 40C, aswell as corrected SG versus time. Mabee thats why no gas is being produced, all of the starch was converted during the acid rest. Wouldnt supprise me but will give it another day or two to come to life.
Wierd hoe the SG drops then raises again.

Title should say Phytase acid rest and still figuring out how to make the time axis scaled.


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## Stubbie (8/12/09)

Bandito,

If you're after a hint of sourness, you may want to consider using some acidulated malt.

Stubbie


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## Bandito (11/12/09)

Thanks, I'll look into it and give it a go. 

Well, apart from a krausen, there is no sign of fermentation. I suspect the low ph could be causing it. Anyone know what pH yeast works down to? I saw it somewhere ages ago but cant find it again. 

I have just set the brew fridge thermostat to 18C for a dicetyl rest for the previous batch also using wyeast 2278. I'm hoping that might kick start it. Otherwise I'll pitch some S-23 on the weekend - not all of the starch was converted by the acid rest, at least 10 points were left......unless those 10 points were all cenverted by the beta amylase rest at 50C???.. The lauterings did taste sweet. Spose I'll find out soon enough.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/12/09)

your final pH isn't all that low anyway - post boil wort with a pH of 5.1-5.2 are pretty stock standard. You are a bit lower but not drastically or anything. The yeast will have dropped it way below that pretty quickly anyway.


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## Ross (11/12/09)

Bandito said:


> Thanks, I'll look into it and give it a go.
> 
> Well, apart from a krausen, there is no sign of fermentation. I suspect the low ph could be causing it. Anyone know what pH yeast works down to? I saw it somewhere ages ago but cant find it again.
> 
> I have just set the brew fridge thermostat to 18C for a dicetyl rest for the previous batch also using wyeast 2278. I'm hoping that might kick start it. Otherwise I'll pitch some S-23 on the weekend - not all of the starch was converted by the acid rest, at least 10 points were left......unless those 10 points were all cenverted by the beta amylase rest at 50C???.. The lauterings did taste sweet. Spose I'll find out soon enough.



What other signs are you looking for? relax, it's fermenting.

Seriously, make a few beers & learn the basics first, brewing does not need to be complicated.

cheers Ross


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## jonocarroll (11/12/09)

Bandito said:


> not all of the starch was converted by the acid rest, at least 10 points were left......unless those 10 points were all cenverted by the beta amylase rest at 50C???.. The lauterings did taste sweet.


The above would suggest that you're stabbing blindly in the dark here. 

Why do you expect the starches to be converted by the acid rest? It's an _acid_ rest, not a _saccharification _rest. Beta amylase works best in the range 55*C - 65*C, so I'm not sure I would call 50*C a beta-amylase rest, much less 40*C, but I guess given the time you mashed for it may have done some work.

As for the lauterings tasting sweet - chew on an unmashed grain and tell me if it tastes sweet... your saliva contains amylase enzymes so the starches will be converted there anyway. Don't use your mouth to test conversion, only the iodine test. Your SG vs time is very odd - I'm not sure how you've measured mash SG, or why you have done so, but the only number you need to take care of is the SG when all sugars are extracted.

You've got a krausen, so you _are_ fermenting something, but you're going to kick 2278 up to 18*C and ruin it? 2278 ferments warm, but that's pushing it.

I think you need to perhaps re-read the procedural steps of How to Brew, then probably go along to a brew day and see how everyone else does this. Oh, and while stuffing up a procedure is entirely forgivable, pretending you did it on purpose and calling it an experiment; not so much.


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## JonnyAnchovy (11/12/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Oh, and while stuffing up a procedure is entirely forgivable, pretending you did it on purpose and calling it an experiment; not so much.



So people have to seek your forgiveness now QB? I must have missed that memo. :blink: 

Bandito - consider yourself unforgiven! ::finger shaking::


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## blackbock (11/12/09)

Bandito, please ignore all of the know-all comments, you haven't done anything weird. 
( reinvented the wheel perhaps, but...experimentation is fun )

I am sure your version of Pilsener Urquell will be nothing short of outstanding.


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## manticle (11/12/09)

blackbock said:


> Bandito, please ignore all of the know-all comments,



Except bandito asked for advice/feedback. Would you prefer none was given?


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## blackbock (11/12/09)

manticle said:


> Except bandito asked for advice/feedback. Would you prefer none was given?



Well, I don't wish to speak for bandito, but since he/she made it clear what process he/she had undertaken and asked the following question in the OP: 

_The question now is do I just continue the mash at 60 deg C then 70 deg C as normal or do I increase the longth of time because of the low pH (4.8 instead of 5.2)?_

I can't see how posting smart-a*s pics and advice to just dump cracked grains in hot water for an hour is really very good advice in his/her situation, at least I would be disappointed if I ever received such worthless feedback.


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## manticle (11/12/09)

If you look past any smart arse pics, the general advice was to keep it simple and not overcomplicate things as the OP had initially suggested they were quite new to this. I think that's fairly sound advice and unlikely to have been offered with any malice.

I think the question was due to some confusion in interpreting basic tenets of AG brewing so the answer isn't as simple as yes or no.


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## Thirsty Boy (12/12/09)

blackbock said:


> Bandito, please ignore all of the know-all comments, you haven't done anything weird.
> ( reinvented the wheel perhaps, but...experimentation is fun )
> 
> I am sure your version of Pilsener Urquell will be nothing short of outstanding.



Actually - Bandito _has_ done something weird. Really quite weird.

Thats not sayig that weird brewing is a bad thing mind you, or that the beer wont turn out great... but to be honest, if it does turn out great it will be despite the odd mashing routine not because of it.

If Bandito mashed that way because he wanted to see what happens - cool, more power to a brewer with loads of patience and a willingness to try new stuff. But if he/she mashed that way because he thought it was necessary or in fact desirable in order to brew the beer he was targeting... then basically he's way off the mark.


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## Bandito (12/12/09)

I did it to see what happens.

13 years ago when me and a mate started brewing, we had an unused fridge in the corner of the brewery. We kept saying 'mabee we should try brewing at low temperature' instead of 32C, but we were too scared of ruining a batch so we never tried it. If only we had the balls to try it - if only.

I suppose I saw this acid rest in a chart with a big 'not used anymore' next to it, and I thought 'we'll see about that'. And I will see.

Its not as if this is my first AG brew, its my third. My first was mashed at 70ishC and tastes great. My second was mashed at 60C and 70C I think (have to find the bre log). Half of It (secondary) went into the food fridge last night for conditioning and will get a taste tonight when I gelatine. So although I am sure my first AG could have been better I was very happy with it.


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## Bandito (13/12/09)

Well, the SG is currently 1.012 - which is supprising since the glad wrap didnt bulge with pressure at all.

I am sure you will all be pleased to hear that I have just mixed 3.5L of this sour beer with 18L of perfectly good beer that is in secondary at the moment.

The beer that I mixed it with was made as a 35L batch and split into two 23L round willow fermenters, then racked into two 20L jerry can willow containers so I could fit 4 jerry cans into my brew fridge instead of two round ones.

I think the resulting mixed brew will be quite drinkable - at least a decent first sour brew - mabee the first one made with this method in quite a while. Both were brewed with Wyeast 2278 @ 10C (the other day when I increased temp it got to 14C, then upon QuantumBrewers' comments "You've got a krausen, so you _are_ fermenting something, but you're going to kick 2278 up to 18*C and ruin it? 2278 ferments warm, but that's pushing it." I turned down the temp when I got home. So it never got over 14C. Thanks for the reality check QB. At the time I wasnt worried about ruining this acid batch.

I decided on the mixture by taking samples and drinking them individually and mixed. Then just filled up the fermenter to the brim - should be about right.

If luck is on my side I just might end up with a cross between the slight sourness of becks and bitburgers' bitburger  Which, based on the current flavours is what I might expect and is what I consider my perfect brew - and if its anywhere near it, it will be by pure luck and intuition - who said poking blindly in the dark was a bad thing?

I doubt it, but mabee I have stumbled onto my perfect recipe. Will update with results when available.


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## Zwickel (13/12/09)

Everyone said, one cant do that; there came someone who didnt know that and did it.


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## Bandito (13/12/09)

Thanks dude! thats a really good quote. I might put that in my signature! It would be : "Everyone said, one cant do that; then came someone who didnt know that and did it." Zwickel

One last addition I would like some feedback on is the addition of spices - specifically corriander. For the past couple of weeks I have had the impression that corriander would go well with my perfect brew. I am not sure if this will be it, but there is nothing wrong with adding corriander....right?

I have a corriander plant that started flowering 4 weeks ago, it is still in flower and hasnt produced any seed yet. Looks like I might have to get some store bought seed. I could crush it in my marga mill on the closest gap a few times to get some sort of infusion going. Dont really want to buy a pestle and mortar. Anyone tried adding corriander to a sour brew? and what would you suggest?

Just chuck crushed grains in secondary? boil it first... oh I really dont whant to suggest it but... mash it.... acid rest it? ha ha! lol....nah that might be going a bit far, although....


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## Zwickel (13/12/09)

Bandito said:


> Thanks dude! thats a really good quote. I might put that in my signature! It would be : "Everyone said, one cant do that; then came someone who didnt know that and did it." Zwickel



thanks mate, I still have to learn some english lessons  satisfied to be already close to it 



> One last addition I would like some feedback on is the addition of spices - specifically corriander. For the past couple of weeks I have had the impression that corriander would go well with my perfect brew. I am not sure if this will be it, but there is nothing wrong with adding corriander....right?


honestly mate, Id rather cook some food with coriander, and add it to the beer by eating and drinking at the same time. That way it would be easier to measure out the right dose.

nevertheless, go your way :beerbang: 

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Bandito (2/5/10)

This turned out to be the most sour and bitter brew ever. The hops never settled and so each glass had hops floating around, that combined with the horrible flavour to make the worst tasting beer ever!


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## unrealeous (2/5/10)

Sounds like its a bitter pils to swallow...


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## JonnyAnchovy (2/5/10)

unrealeous said:


> Sounds like its a bitter pils to swallow...



har har.

no, seriously - I lol'd


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## jyo (2/5/10)

Bandito said:


> This turned out to be the most sour and bitter brew ever. The hops never settled and so each glass had hops floating around, that combined with the horrible flavour to make the worst tasting beer ever!



Seriously, mate, well done for coming back and being honest about the taste! I was wondering how this would go.


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## paulwolf350 (2/5/10)

Bandito said:


> This turned out to be the most sour and bitter brew ever. The hops never settled and so each glass had hops floating around, that combined with the horrible flavour to make the worst tasting beer ever!




lets just hope you learn something from it and move on, thats what makes us better brewers

Paul


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## donburke (21/6/12)

and here i was ... ready to post a question ...

'is it ok to do an overnight acid rest for my decoction pilsner'

i guess not


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