# What Has Or What Is Stopping You From Going All Grain?



## dkaos (18/10/10)

So I'm working on a project at the moment. Education for brewers. A bit of entertainment and a bit of education. 

So that I can get an idea of what subjects to cover, What stopped you from starting All Grain? What is stopping you from going all grain?

If your response is not covered in the poll, let me know! (Edit: Can't work out how to do the poll. Just doesn't save. Any tips appreciated!)

Cheers

Clint


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/10/10)

Where's the poll?

What stopped me was equipment (esp. cost) and fear (that step between extract and gathering wort yourself).

Then came BIAB, and a couple of guides. Read lots, then did a batch and then compared notes and got the theory a bit more detailed in my head and then read more and tried more.

Goomba


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## hsb (18/10/10)

Knowledge and experience for me. What at first seemed like a dark art, seemed far more straightforward after doing K&K, then partials for a year or two.

From there, sourcing/buying the gear was a secondary problem much easier to overcome. 

I went K&K > Partial > AG. From Partial to AG felt like a smaller, more natural progression than from K&K to Partials.
In fact the moment I'd done a couple of Partials I was wondering why the heck not just go AG.

Costs were not a consideration to me, I don't have unlimited funds or anything but where there's a will...

I didn't really tap into the BIAB scene but went to 3V AG with a 'Gravity drive' to move materials...

*Poll was FAIL btw...


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## Swinging Beef (18/10/10)

The "elitism" exhibited by many 3v brewers
Put me off for ages.


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## dkaos (18/10/10)

Thanks for your replies Goomba and HSB. I had the same feeling about All Grain. At first it seemed like it was reserved for experienced brewers but really anyone with basic brewing experience and a few days reading can get into it. .

This is what I want to be doing for my education program. Demystifying All Grain brewing so that it doesn't seem so out of reach for people.

Swinging Beef: Didn't see your response till I had submitted my post. I know what you mean there, as long as we all stay open to everyone elses preferences it's not a problem really. I'm keen to try some of these amazing kit and kilo brews though as I have heard some give AG a run for their money.


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## Bribie G (18/10/10)

Cost and the impression that, because I don't have access to a home brew shop, the cost of obtaining grains would be prohibitive. 
However thanks to three guys listed below, all this was overcome quite quickly and I was up and running - two years ago next month actually.


Pistol Patch
Ross
K Rudd

:icon_cheers:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/10/10)

agree with hsb - the jump from K&K to Partial was larger (though before I went AG, I didn't perceive it that way). Partial meant some grains, better yeast, understanding how hops worked relative to beer brewing (as opposed to pre hopped kits) and what malts could be mixed together.

AG was just a new world - so much more ingredients, especially with malts. The grains available are immense and give a massive base upon which to build a great beer.

The biggest discovery I've made since AG brewing (apart from BIAB itself) has been Nottingham dried yeast. It is my favourite yeast now and is pretty versatile for the range of beers I produce.

BIAB is a great place to start AG brewing, so long as you can deal with some prejudice from some 3V'ers, who don't want to think that BIAB could produce AG beer, let alone something that would rival a 3V beer, for a lot less equipment cost.

I may go 3V one day, then again, I may not. But I'll never go back to extract again.


Goomba.


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## DUANNE (18/10/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Where's the poll?
> 
> What stopped me was equipment (esp. cost) and fear (that step between extract and gathering wort yourself).
> 
> ...




almost exactly the same for me.equipment cost was a big factor and a perception of so many more things to be able to get wrong.then found this site and biab and havent looked back.


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## raven19 (18/10/10)

I had been doing Grumpy Partials for years, and never even thought about All Grain, until after I enrolled in a brewing course through Tafe with a mate. Then I found AHB, and the rest as they say is history...

I never even contemplated using all grains in a brew until the above course opened my eyes... sheltered childhood maybe?


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## Hatchy (18/10/10)

The 1st 12 years of (off & on) brewing I didn't know that there was any way to brew other than kits. Then the gear was a problem until yesterday when I brewed my 1st AG batch on my "new" gear.


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## Bribie G (18/10/10)

A bit off topic but last year I couldn't brew for six weeks for work reasons. When I could brew again I decided to do a couple of quick extract keg fillers to tide me over until I could get stock from Craftbrewer and crank out some full mash beers. I used the finest of malt extract, hops and yeast, perfect temperature control - applied all the knowledge I've picked up on this forum and elsewhere, fined and Polyclared them, kegged them.
The first glass.... suddenly I was 7 years old again because the stuff tasted so much like my Dad's home brew he used to make in a plastic dustbin in the cupboard under the stairs using some gawd knows what brown hops from a health food shop and no doubt bakers yeast from the grocers.

Never again :icon_cheers: Sorry, not having a sneer at extract brewers, I've tasted a couple of nice ones in the past, but personally I'd never go back.

Edit: welcome to the darkside Hatchy


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## Cannibal Smurf (18/10/10)

Thanks to the Gentlman above.. yes you Bribie, a lot of ambition and perhaps a little naivety I jumped feet first into AG brewing, having never done K&K or partials. Never looked back and had some great feedback on my beers. I suppose being introduced to AG via BIAB = low costs made it a lot easier to go along this path.

_edit: spelleng_


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## amiddler (18/10/10)

I was doing K&K on and off for 5 years when I decided AG was the way to go. I didn't do extract or partials just straight to AG. I found AHB before deciding on going AG and not much set me back, but funding the project at the start was posibly the hardest. 

Winning the misses over when I want to buy something shiney is still a battle  

Drew


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## manticle (18/10/10)

Learning process and working out equipment (what I needed, how to modify it etc). Didn't stop me as such - was just a process I needed to go through to get there.

I have found most AG brewers to be quite happy to help others improve their beer if they want to so more inspiration from others rather than being put off.


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## MarkBastard (18/10/10)

I erroneously thought the jump from partial mashes on a stove top to all grain would be really big.

In fact I think all grain in a 40L urn BIAB style is the easiest form of brewing I've ever done. Easier than kits. Easier than all-extract. Easier than partial-mash. Mainly because racking from the kettle via the tap to a no chill cube is so much easier than trying to cool wort in a pot in the sink etc and then tipping into a fermenter.

I leave the cube overnight to cool down, then leave in the fermenting fridge so that it gets to pitching temp. Couldn't do that with my other methods and I'd always stress about pitching too high or risking infection.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/10/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I erroneously thought the jump from partial mashes on a stove top to all grain would be really big.
> 
> In fact I think all grain in a 40L urn BIAB style is the easiest form of brewing I've ever done. Easier than kits. Easier than all-extract. Easier than partial-mash. Mainly because racking from the kettle via the tap to a no chill cube is so much easier than trying to cool wort in a pot in the sink etc and then tipping into a fermenter.
> 
> I leave the cube overnight to cool down, then leave in the fermenting fridge so that it gets to pitching temp. Couldn't do that with my other methods and I'd always stress about pitching too high or risking infection.



M^B - slightly OT, but how do you adjust your bittering for no chill? And does no-chill increased bittering for you mean a decrease in flavour or aroma (that I'm assuming it would)?

I didn't adjust (partly just because I wanted to see what it did), and found my last batch very bitter. No biggie, I'll just leave it sit to mellow out, but I'm assuming no-chill means that 60 minutes might act like 90 min boil, 15 as 30, flameout as 15. Am I right? And how do your aroma additions.

Goomba


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## .DJ. (18/10/10)

Time was always the biggest factor, as well as space to brew..


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## DU99 (18/10/10)

currently resources are holding me back,but i have joined a brew club and will learn from them what i need and what to do..i have bought some stepping kits


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## Newbiebrewer (18/10/10)

Gear (both price and availability) and a lack of knowledge. Fixed the later by reading and re reading this forum.


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## felten (18/10/10)

I jumped straight into all grain after only putting down 1 toucan and 1 extract batch. The only thing that stopped me was waiting ~6 months or so to obtain all the gear. (took several months to get some parts in the mail)


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## MarkBastard (18/10/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> M^B - slightly OT, but how do you adjust your bittering for no chill? And does no-chill increased bittering for you mean a decrease in flavour or aroma (that I'm assuming it would)?
> 
> I didn't adjust (partly just because I wanted to see what it did), and found my last batch very bitter. No biggie, I'll just leave it sit to mellow out, but I'm assuming no-chill means that 60 minutes might act like 90 min boil, 15 as 30, flameout as 15. Am I right? And how do your aroma additions.
> 
> Goomba



Basically I cube hop a lot which gives a really good flavour addition, and IBU wise I work out as about a 10 minute addition. I let the wort steep and I whirlpool it for at least 10 minutes after 'flame out'.

I reckon cube hopping gives great flavour and some aroma.

I dry hop in the fermenter sometimes and I dry hop in the keg sometimes. I find fermenter dry hopping doesn't give any of that resinous mouth feel you get from keg hopping. Sometimes I want that sometimes I don't. I also have experimented with the french press hop tea method but it didn't work very well because it was 50g of hops and the boiling water just soaked into the hops and even with pouring more and more boiling water in I still couldn't extract much.

It's only really a problem for me with Pale Ales and IPAs and I love dry hopping characteristics with those styles so not a big deal.

I'd use a chiller but my tap water is never cold enough.


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## nzefactor (18/10/10)

1. Cost of equipment + stocking up on AG ingredients.
2. Brew space

I found the stovetop biab thread, plus a few other noob AHB threads, made brewing your first AG less daunting. Plus the fact it's so easy on the wallet helps. Eventually though you need (want?) bigger brewing equipment. Depending on your chosen method the cost of piecing together your brewgear can put a halt on proceedings...if only for a little while.

I envy the lucky bastards with entire sheds/basements/garages to brew in without being bothered!


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## Ross (18/10/10)

Swinging Beef said:


> The "elitism" exhibited by many 3v brewers
> Put me off for ages.




This is something I often see guys bitch about, but in all my years of brewing I've never met a single AG brewer that's shown any signs of "elitism" infact quite the opposite.
Intrigued by what you are reffering to as "elitism" & how this put you off?


Cheers Ross


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## pk.sax (18/10/10)

Procastrination and cost of equipment. Still, doing what I can with whats on hand and enjoying it


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

Ross said:


> This is something I often see guys bitch about, but in all my years of brewing I've never met a single AG brewer that's shown any signs of "elitism" infact quite the opposite.
> Intrigued by what you are reffering to as "elitism" & how this put you off?
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



If I may offer my opinion on this - I think "elitism" mightn't be the correct term. I would side with "clique", in its positive sense, and add the phrase "blinded with science". 

Like any complex hobby, AG brewing is littered with nomenclature rendering the inexperienced dumbfounded. One needs a few days of hardcore immersion just to fit the terminology to the practice. 

And it's almost impossible (in a nice way) for the AG experienced to forget what they've learnt and address the noob with simple information that doesn't lead astray (when other experts become involved) the person merely wanting to know what the flip _grist _means. No one likes to be seen the dummy and there's a lot of flippancy thrown about by experts when a dumb question is asked - it happens everywhere with exasperated experts. Can't blame them for forgetting that they too knew squat.

A simple question on a web forum asked by a noob more often than not snowballs into a brewing term jungle, and the noob thinks, "**** this, I'll buy a can of goop."

Complication is the brick wall between the Kits and AG - and IM sometimes HO it's not a very high wall, but many think it is. 

I reckon the last 5% of beer quality comes with 95% of the knowledge needed to make AG beer. Slaphappy AG brewing makes awesome beer and many people don't believe this until they try it, but they don't try it because they don't know the meaning of *the words everyone uses*.


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## Fourstar (18/10/10)

Ignorance.... "too hard, too many complicated words/terms.... ohh science!"

End thread.


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## DU99 (18/10/10)

i have seen AG made at Westgate Brewers Open days..so i know what goes into the process's...just a matter of getting some equipment and recipes to start with ..just some of those AG people that are bit snarly have to remember how they got there start..


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## boriskane (18/10/10)

i just moved up to biab and it was always the plan for it to be a progression, and one day in the long long future i plan on getting a 3V. i did a couple of kits, half a dozen extracts, one partial, then couldnt wait any longer and was happy with it all to move to biab. 

what was stopping me from going to AG straight away was that i felt that i had to learn the method properly (no infections+stable fermentation temps to begin with), take baby steps, and produce half decent beers before making the jump to all grain. 

and being able to do a biab on a 20L pot that only costs $20 from bigw was the clincher, couldnt afford to outlay $200 on a large pot/urn.


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## pk.sax (18/10/10)

DU99 said:


> i have seen AG made at Westgate Brewers Open days..so i know what goes into the process's...just a matter of getting some equipment and recipes to start with ..just some of those AG people that are bit snarly have to remember how they got there start..



+1 I have to westgate brewers were exactly the opposite of the alleged "elitists". Happy to share info and discuss stuff even if they do things differently.
I haven't met sneery brewers yet, n hope I don't.


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## tavas (18/10/10)

A lack of understanding of what was involved and what equipment was needed. 

Love him or hate him, Nick JD's thread about moving to AG for $30 and his second one about 20l Stovetop thread was a real eyeopener for me. So much so that I figured if I'm going to steep some specs grains for partials, I may as well mash the whole bloody lot. And while my first AG beers taste like shit, it got me hooked into finding out why and what am I doing wrong. All I needed was a big pot and a bag, although that soon grew to lots of other stuff, but the point is, I could do AG with only minimal outlay.

And yeah, lots of reading on here. There's all the information you ever need on this forum, you just have to look for it. I don't get hung up on cliques or people getting angry at each other etc. After a few days you soon know who's talking crap vs who knows what they're doing. The other stuff just adds to the entertainment.


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## aussiechucka (18/10/10)

After many years of K&K and then finally breaking my AG cherry this year. I don't think there would be any going back. I didn't have any second thoughts about going from K&K to Ag after tasting a mates AG his first. Plus now I can do a whole lot of other styles I never thought I could make. 
A big thanks has to go out to all of the people on this site for all the little bits of advice that makes brewing easier.
Cheers
Chucka


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## MarkBastard (18/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> If I may offer my opinion on this - I think "elitism" mightn't be the correct term. I would side with "clique", in its positive sense, and add the phrase "blinded with science".
> 
> Like any complex hobby, AG brewing is littered with nomenclature rendering the inexperienced dumbfounded. One needs a few days of hardcore immersion just to fit the terminology to the practice.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this 100%.

And I reckon part of the reason why Nick JD cops some abuse here (part of the reason) is because he's upset some hierarchy of home brewing scientists with his down to earth explanations of what really only need to be simple concepts to new brewers.

The other part of the reason is because he deliberately trolls from time to time but I don't blame him :icon_cheers: 

When I first started brewing I was going to make a thread sort of like JD's one but never got around to it. The hardest part of learning AG was sifting through the terminology and opinions etc. The actual process itself, especially BIAB, is piss easy.

Heat water to 70 degrees
Plonk bag in
Plong grain in
Mash it around a bit.
Go away for 60 minutes and don't touch it.

If you're about to tell me the brewer should be monitoring the mash temperature you're already complicating it way too much. The worst that can happen is a brew doesn't turn out perfect. Who cares? The detailed approach makes people not even attempt an AG brew in the first place.


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## Hatchy (18/10/10)

Ross said:


> This is something I often see guys bitch about, but in all my years of brewing I've never met a single AG brewer that's shown any signs of "elitism" infact quite the opposite.
> Intrigued by what you are reffering to as "elitism" & how this put you off?
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



I'll vouch for this. When I 1st signed up on here, Philip invited me to his place for a brewday so I could see the process & wasn't at all condescending about the kit beers I took round for feedback, yesterday when I had all of my AG gear together he was happy for me to bring it round to brew at his place in case I needed any help (which I did at times).

The same goes for all of the brewers I've met, full of encouragement & enthusiasm, no snobbery or elitism. I haven't met every brewer in the country but the ones I've met are top blokes.


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## peaky (18/10/10)

Nothing stopped me from moving to AG after 2 kits and 2 partials. The only reason I did the kits etc was because I was still building the frame for my 3 tier gravity system and I was just dying to ferment something! 

4 brews before going to AG was nowhere near long enough for me to work out exactly what I was getting myself into! Steep learning curve


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

Ross said:


> This is something I often see guys bitch about, but in all my years of brewing I've never met a single AG brewer that's shown any signs of "elitism" infact quite the opposite.
> Intrigued by what you are reffering to as "elitism" & how this put you off?
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



Since I have already offered a cordial explaination, I suppose I could offer another, less-oblique explaination. 

After attempting to help new brewers move to AG, and recieving a lot of good feedback, a member of the _Elite Group of Brewers_ who don't exist posted this: 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=615854

Have a read of this post. Be honest - is this the kind of thing you think doesn't exist? 

He goes on to politically retract his statement and post a detailed explaination of how he was completely wrong (which I'm still not sure about - he was pretty plain and lucid in his scathing remarks) ... be fair, Ross but don't be an ostrich. It rears its ugly head more often than you'd think.


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## Bribie G (18/10/10)

Nick, I read your original report of the brew day that you posted and, on a smaller scale than my 40L urn method, it's basically the same. I know PP personally and I can't understand why he called your method "an abomination"... maybe the sparge in a green (must be green ) bucket perhaps. :blink: Possibly having a bad hair day, as I did today and off to the barbers tomorrow. I sparge in a virginally white bucket if required  

I know you cop some crap because you are a crazy bastard brewer :beerbang: who goes out onto limbs and you often make a rod for your very broad, I'm sure, back. I think what was being discussed here was the welcome or otherwise given to beginning brewers trying to get into AG, whom you have certainly helped with your threads.


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## Shed101 (18/10/10)

I'm teetering on the edge of a form of AG at the moment, having witnessed a couple of fellow 'inmates' efforts.

What's stopping me:

Time
Money
Space - both physical and mental (too many potential extract recipes in my head to get onto anything else!)
Concern my life will become 100% wedded to beer.


I am sure I will get to a 20l stovetop type effort in time, although I'm kind of romanced by this pommy bloke's efforts


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## haysie (18/10/10)

Looks like another mine is bigger than yours thread 


vrs 



What happened to the football season? Are all the beer egsperts _unemployed_ reading and posting on beer web forums or is it my imagination. <_<


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## felten (18/10/10)

The fact that pp completely retracted his statement, said he misinterpreted everything, and nick accept his apology, makes nicks point there kind of moot. Not to say I haven't seen some elitism before, but its never something I've looked at and taken seriously, some people are just douche bags.


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## sama (18/10/10)

It all seemed a little complex and a bit daunting but i found the best thing to overcome these issues was the purchase of john palmers book "how to brew".


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

felten said:


> The fact that pp completely retracted his statement, said he misinterpreted everything, and nick accept his apology, makes nicks point there kind of moot. Not to say I haven't seen some elitism before, but its never something I've looked at and taken seriously, some people are just douche bags.



You're a complete arsehat, Felten.


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

Actually, no - I was wrong. You are a distinguished gentleman who has done no wrong.

EDIT - heh heh heh. I said arsehat.


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## felten (18/10/10)

Probably, but then that's all in the eye of the beholder isn't it.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (18/10/10)

felten said:


> The fact that pp completely retracted his statement, said he misinterpreted everything, and nick accept his apology, makes nicks point there kind of moot. Not to say I haven't seen some elitism before, but its never something I've looked at and taken seriously, some people are just douche bags.



+1.

I learned to ignore said douche bags. They did make me almost quit AHB though.

Goomba


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## Bribie G (18/10/10)

sama said:


> It all seemed a little complex and a bit daunting but i found the best thing to overcome these issues was the purchase of john palmers book "how to brew".



Palmer is generally a really good source of information on such topics as ingredients, enzymes, water etc etc , but he isn't up to speed on BIAB or Nochill. In fact he positively discourages Nochill and says you will get no cold break as you need 'thermal shock' and thus Nochill will give you massive chill haze etc. I did a nochill / cold break experiment which has been posted up on the forum, and the results of tasting by quite a number of people indicate that cold break is either nothing to worry about, or even produces a more flavoursome beer. 

Palmer is of course very American - centric and the new methods being successfully used in Australia such as Nochill and BIAB will no doubt take some time to penetrate.


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## tavas (18/10/10)

Good point Bribie. There's plenty of info on here to compensate for Palmer's book (although he has done an article with Thirsty Boy about BIAB), but sometimes its hard to find or not intuitive. Usually halfway through a thread when the topic changes you'll find a nugget of info. Generally people here have either done, seen it or know someone who did it. That being said, the beauty of homebrewing is its only beer. A failed experiment isn't the end of the world. Beer's been brewed for 8,000 years without Beersmith, bags, eskies digital temperature controllers etc.


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## Brewer_010 (18/10/10)

what stops me ag-ing is stumping up the dosh for the extra kit I need (pot, burner, mashtun), storage space, but also the urge to do so. I just bought a mill so my partials are a hell of a lot easier but I'm not actually sure I even want to go into full ag... the extra time and effort will mean that more of my life is spent on brewing and I have loads of other things to do. Maybe I'll just go back to doing FWKs 80% of the time and doing the odd decent partial? I have enough trouble finding the time to do my small-scale brewing and kegging as it is...


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## RdeVjun (18/10/10)

If you believe PP is in an eliteist clique, you're quite mistaken and am still struggling to see the connection. Yes, I grant there were some ridiculous things in said post which made my jaw drop, but as BribieG points out, probably a bad hair day and it was subsequently acknowledged, as Nick did too, so perhaps its a little disingenuous.
I don't doubt elitist 3Vers exist though, maybe not so much around here at all but on other boards they exist, and in influential positions (the bigoted JBK twat was a moderator FFS). That also brings up the next point- I hate to break it to some folks, AHB isn't the world's only home brewing forum! A mighty good one it is, just not the only one. Likewise, it needs remembering that guidance for novice AGers does take place outside of forums too, it happens quite a bit in fact.

Righto, to answer the OP. The bewildering terminology and degree of technical proficiency which seemed to be necessary to even try AG. As M^B and others point out, really it isn't that challenging, but as a novice if you scout around a bit, things like water chemistry, perfecting grain crush, stepped mashes, decoction, recipe formulation, lautering techniques and so on make you wonder if you'll ever be able to even make a partial, let alone ever try an experimental AG. It is largely just fluff though, AG is really quite forgiving and it is surprising how hard it is to stuff one up that bad that it isn't even drinkable. The guides, tutorials and so on which demonstrate that AG is doable by mere mortals in their own home without getting a second mortgage are invaluable in blowing away all that fluff.

I quite agree that while its a terrific resource, Palmer is getting dated, just the same way Line for example and despite his foresight, is now dated and so on. But, seeing as it is electronic, perhaps it could be updated to reflect new developments in home brewing, that would be rather helpful.


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## jyo (18/10/10)

I asked the LHBS about "doing this mashing thing" a few years ago and was told that it is so difficult to do at home that I shouldn't bother. I thought that it was just something that breweries did. So I didn't. Had been steeping grains and boiling hops for years. Then I stumbled upon this place. Lots of budgeting and 6 months reading and here we are (still need to read more). I still do a toucan or minimash from time to time. Haven't found the elitist mob yet, (a few dicks maybe, but hey, it's the internet) only very helpful and passionate people.
John


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

RdeVjun said:


> If you believe PP is in an eliteist clique, you're quite mistaken and am still struggling to see the connection.



_"This thread is an abomination of BIAB which is a method of brewing that many of us older brewers spent countless hours researching, writing on and exploring. People like ThirstyBoy who is one of the few that has done countless mini-BIAB's would find this whole thread quite unbearable - as I do._"

Um, yeah, maybe - um _slightly _kinda just a little bit? OBJECTION! 

Overruled. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (18/10/10)

He made a pretty complete apology though Nick. Elitists don't usually state "I was completely and utterly incorrect about everything important and basically made a tit of myself for which I apologise unreservedly' which he did state (different words, same intent) in that thread. If you still have an issue with it Pm him or something - you accepted the apology in the thread so why make a drama out of it now?

It'd be great if this thread didn't degrade into pointless hair splitting. If there's a brewing illuminati, I'm yet to be inducted and your simplification of stovetop brewing has helped explain small volume AG brewing for a lot of people. It was a well written instructional thread, as have many of pat's and many others also been.

Some debate about various methods but that's life and the internet.


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## Shed101 (18/10/10)

manticle said:


> It'd be great if this thread didn't degrade into pointless hair splitting.



Agree


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## schooey (18/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> If I may offer my opinion on this - I think "elitism" mightn't be the correct term. I would side with "clique", in its positive sense, and add the phrase "blinded with science".
> 
> Like any complex hobby, AG brewing is littered with nomenclature rendering the inexperienced dumbfounded. One needs a few days of hardcore immersion just to fit the terminology to the practice.
> 
> ...




_Interpretation....

Blah blah blah blah... I don't understand; I can't be arsed investing the energy trying to understand. Oh **** I can't ask a question, I might get embarrassed and look like a dick. **** it, I'll just blame all those blokes who did invest the time and energy for intimidating me ... blah blah blah blah

_In terms of this site, I'm a relative newb. I came here brewing cans and a kilo. I asked questions. Sought out local brewers. Went to comps, brewdays, the LHBS. I asked more questions. Not once did any of those blokes say "What a stupid question; what sort of dickhead are you?" Maybe they thought it... who knows. But the majority of the time, they gave me information that was useful. I applied it. I got into AG. I don't see myself as any part of a clique. Sure I probably have looked like a dick to many more experiencd brewers than myself, and probably will continue to for a lot longer. But I haven't let that get in the way of my desire to learn more about something I love doing.

If you think there's a clique or a mighty elite holding you back, I say to you; Bull....Shit! You just haven't been bitten hard enough by the bug or you need something else to blame...


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## proudscum (18/10/10)

Two parcels coming in the post.
One from Germany with a 20l brewery in it.Shipping confirmed today.Go DHL.
One from USA containing a Monster Mill.

Buying some Yeast/Malt and hops from my LHBS oh and some whirfloc.

Recipes and S/S conical at the ready.
Also need to get a Stirplate and some yeast farmer gear.

The four year drought is about to be broken.


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

I hereby apologise and retract all defamatory accusations I have made to all and anyone. I'm actually a really nice guy prone to wild outbursts of complete narcisistic drivel. I now realise that with a quick retraction I can get away with being a complete prick and no one will hold it against me. 

There ... I fixed it. 

 

I'm sorry if my clandestine brewing tutorials brought anyone any grief whatsoever and fully accept that although they are flawed they are like the frumpy moll you used to shak up with when you were pissed because although she wasn't much to look at she did the business and you'll eventually get something better.

Unless you married her - then God help you.


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## proudscum (18/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I hereby apologise and retract all defamatory accusations I have made to all and anyone. I'm actually a really nice guy prone to wild outbursts of complete narcisistic drivel. I now realise that with a quick retraction I can get away with being a complete prick and no one will hold it against me.
> 
> There ... I fixed it.
> 
> ...


Nick you can blame it on living on the border,you must be all at sixes and sevens this time of year with daylight saving.said with something firmly planted in left cheek.


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## goomboogo (18/10/10)

Proudscum, when do you envisage your first run with the Braumeister? Tell me to mind my own business if you want but I'd be interested to know what the price was for the 20 litre model landed in Australia.


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## Nick JD (18/10/10)

proudscum said:


> Nick you can blame it on living on the border,you must be all at sixes and sevens this time of year with daylight saving.said with something firmly planted in left cheek.



Even with States I'm a fence sitter. At State of Origin I put money on a draw.


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## proudscum (18/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> Even with States I'm a fence sitter. At State of Origin I put money on a draw.



Lived in Byron shire in 1996 and used to smash out 3X K+k a week([email protected]#K alot of it must have been bad)But my flatmate and i were pretty proud of having 1000 longnecks under the house
i believe we only ever had one bottle explode.I know were i got my hate of malt tang thats for sure.


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## lordofthebottleshop (18/10/10)

For me it was cost and an understanding of the process. I knew I wanted to get into AG, but had to save over time to get a decent kit together (I wanted the more traditional 3V setup) and do some more research into the process.


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## proudscum (18/10/10)

goomboogo said:


> Proudscum, when do you envisage your first run with the Braumeister? Tell me to mind my own business if you want but I'd be interested to know what the price was for the 20 litre model landed in Australia.




Within the next 3-4 weeks depending on the 3 jobs i am working/study/more house renovations/two pesty children etc etc.Also the mill arriving as i want to start with bulk grain.
Need to make 4 kegs as a wedding present which is no problem with space for 3 fermenters 
under temp control.Cream Ale/Toasted Lager/Kolsch/Pale Ale.


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## roddersf (18/10/10)

sama said:


> It all seemed a little complex and a bit daunting but i found the best thing to overcome these issues was the purchase of john palmers book "how to brew".



+1 also, what helped me over the line were a heap of useful YouTube vids; but besides this being seriously time poor was (and still is) another factor.

You thinking of starting a basic brew course proudscum? I reckon you'd get a lot of takers mate.


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## proudscum (18/10/10)

roddersf said:


> +1 also, what helped me over the line were a heap of useful YouTube vids; but besides this being seriously time poor was (and still is) another factor.
> 
> You thinking of starting a basic brew course proudscum? I reckon you'd get a lot of takers mate.




See what the bean counters say @ Victoria University.....Maybe next year as there are not going to be many cookery students to teach.Will start with local fresh wort kits that way its easier for people to understand that great brews are only a yeast pitch away....if only it was that simple.


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## Mutton Chops (19/10/10)

RdeVjun said:


> I quite agree that while its a terrific resource, Palmer is getting dated, just the same way Line for example and despite his foresight, is now dated and so on. But, seeing as it is electronic, perhaps it could be updated to reflect new developments in home brewing, that would be rather helpful.



It has been updated but in book form ($25 incl post from the States :icon_cheers: ), I'd wager the free version will stay the way it is.

I've been sure to do plenty of research before I pipe up on this forum and have still got lots to learn and experience but from what I know so far I can easily say that I will not being moving to AG until I'm retired or thereabouts. The 3 main factors are (and probably will be for some time...) time, family, & money. I'm not daunted by the science or the work (this is the most addictive hobby I've come across in my life!) but with extracts/partials you can effectively halve your time, double your output and still end up with a bloody nice brew at the end.

Cheers


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## RdeVjun (19/10/10)

Thanks for the info Mutton Chops! Might suss out the libraries, chances are though they will still have the old editions. In the mean time, could you tell us if there's now a BIAB section or reference, I guess while we're at it, No- Chill?
TBH, I can't see myself forking out just for that though, but I'd still recommend it for a novice who's also a bookworm. :icon_cheers:


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## petesbrew (19/10/10)

Before my first AG it was a case of too much time, gear and effort required for AG compared to opening a tin.
However joining a brew club (Hills Brewers Guild) gave me the taste of brilliant beers.
A brewday at Doc's blew me away, but it still took me a year to try my first partial.

Basically it's me just dragging my feet. Time, space & family requirements is always a big issue.
Still knowing that, I've started doing double brewdays. As the gear's already set up, it only takes another couple of hours for the 2nd boil & cleanup.

But, I still have some kits aside ready for emergencies or experiments.


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## felten (19/10/10)

RdeVjun said:


> Thanks for the info Mutton Chops! Might suss out the libraries, chances are though they will still have the old editions. In the mean time, could you tell us if there's now a BIAB section or reference, I guess while we're at it, No- Chill?
> TBH, I can't see myself forking out just for that though, but I'd still recommend it for a novice who's also a bookworm. :icon_cheers:


They did a brewstrong ep on BIAB recently, it wasn't too informative though. I don't think they're too interested in nochill or biab somehow.


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## jbirbeck (19/10/10)

the thing that stops me from going AG is I like to use some non-grain adjuncts on occasion :icon_cheers: 

seriously - nothing held me back but this site. Now a source of great pleasure for me, was once a hot bed of confusing discussions on the details of the mash when all full mash beers are is mixing hot water and grain. Do it any way you want and you'll make beer.


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## argon (19/10/10)

felten said:


> They did a brewstrong ep on BIAB recently, it wasn't too informative though. I don't think they're too interested in nochill or biab somehow.



Yeah i listened to that... was a pretty poor effort. Jamil pretty much spoked to a couple of guys in Melbourne. Wasn't the clearest explanation of BIAB. The whole show seemed fairly disinterested in the process. Jamil said he hadn't done a BIAB, Palmer said he gave it a go... but didn't really elaborate. I don't even think Jamil has even seen it done.


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## argon (19/10/10)

The thing that held me back from AG was 1 thing not knowing it even existed before joining AHB and reading How to Brew.

Ive had friends tell me theyre interested in using grain and asking their LHBS about grains and being told its a waste of time and takes 8hours and the beer tastes the same as a kit. I really need to get them round to my place and do a stovetop with them in the room. Itll be enlightening if I show them a 3V batch sparge, with water additions, vorlaufing, kettle finnings, whirpooling, NC cubing etc theyll think bugger this!... too hard

Equipment and money being a factor in not going AG Thats crap. You can easy do an AG with a 19L BigW pot and some voile. Whats that set you back $30 2 or 3 cans of goo or half a carton of decent beer from the bottlo The voile doesnt even need to be sewed just do it as a sheet. Hell, I did my first all grain in a $5 grain bag from CBs and a $12 BigW pot. If you have a kitchen and potable water supply to your residency you can go all grain. If you can cook food you can make awesome beer, better than 90% of the stuff available at bottlos and pubs. 

Time is another one stove top takes about 3 hours last time I did one. And its not like going for a run for 3 hours either 80% of the time youre not even doing anything. 

So you get home from work make some dinner while doing that bring some water up to 70C hot water from the tap and 20-30 mins on the stove. Eat the dinner you just made for yourself. Temps about right by now Add the grain to the pot sit down and watch an hour of TV. Walk back to the kitchen, take the grain out and dump it. Crank the stove up go watch another 15-20mins or so of TV pots now boiling tweak it back a bit so it doesnt mess everywhere measure out and add some hops half hour more of TV measure out and add some more hops 15mins more TV measure out and add some more hops 15mins TV. Turn the stove off pick up the pot and put it in the sink with some cold water 15mins more TV change the water 15mins more TV change the water should be about cool by now pour the lot into the fermenter throw some yeast at it put some clingwrap on the fermenter put it in a reasonably cool spot/ferm fridge/whatever. Forget about it. How is that too hard, sure its not as easy as sitting on your arse doing nothing. Or using a can opener and bag of sugarBut your evening has just been spent making beer and relaxing in front of the TV and you dont have to wince every time you take a sip of your K&K beer.

Oh and doing a partial and saying you dont have time to do AG well then youre not actually doing a partial then. Partials and AG = same time. Mashing is mashing it takes the same time if its all your grain or only part of the grain.


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## StewTurner (19/10/10)

I just did my first AG on the weekend (BIAB in an esky). I got 2 home brew starter kits for Christmas, did a Coopers lager as my first brew (loved it at the time), then an extract version of Dr Smurto's Golden Ale as my second after discovering AHB. I have done maybe 8 or 10 extract brews since. Some have been great, others less so.

NickJD's two seminal threads really made it inevitible that I would make the switch to AG. If I had not discovered those, I might not have bothered. Making a manifold is beyond me, and I don't have room for a keggle and Mongolian burner. Realising that I could do AG on the stove top, with hardly any additional equipment was the clincher.

And Argon is right, if you are brewing on the stove top, brew day hardly takes any time (in the sense that you can do other stuff at the same time).

Now I just have to wait for the results.


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## matr (19/10/10)

argon said:


> Oh and doing a partial and saying you don't have time to do AG well then you're not actually doing a partial then. Partials and AG = same time. Mashing is mashing it takes the same time if it's all your grain or only part of the grain.



This is where the penny dropped with me. Doing partials and thinking.. Shit I could be doing a full batch if I had the gear coz it takes the same amount of time (probably less as your not worrying about warming cans of liquid malt or trying to disolve DME).

That's why the BIAB gear is getting put together now.


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## StewTurner (19/10/10)

I forgot to add one of the main reasons I went to AG. I was finding that my extract beers were finishing pretty high. I was typically finding that 2 cans of Coopers liquid extract (light and wheat) plus 250 grams of crystal, using US-05 was finishing around 1.016. I would like to brew some beers that finish a little lower than that, and mashing my own grain should give me control over (or at least the ability to influence) the malt profile.


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## hazard (19/10/10)

jyo said:


> I asked the LHBS about "doing this mashing thing" a few years ago and was told that it is so difficult to do at home that I shouldn't bother. I thought that it was just something that breweries did. So I didn't. Had been steeping grains and boiling hops for years. Then I stumbled upon this place. Lots of budgeting and 6 months reading and here we are (still need to read more). I still do a toucan or minimash from time to time. Haven't found the elitist mob yet, (a few dicks maybe, but hey, it's the internet) only very helpful and passionate people.
> John


Yep I've been to that store, it exists in a few places - you know, the ones that sell kits and malt extract. I got into home brew because I happened to walk into one next door to JB Hi Fi after a shoppiong expedition, and spent 6 months doing kits. Had no idea that all-grain existed until i found this site.

So I blame:
- home brew stores that are interested in making a buck selling cans, and don't want customers to move onwards and upwards becasue they wont be _their_ customers any more.
- lack of knowledge in the general population - there are plenty of kit stores around, more so than stores catering to AG market, so I'm guessing that many amateur brewers aren't getting the right info.
- mediocrity in local population - if you are happy with VB then why would you bother trying to make something better?


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## wakkatoo (19/10/10)

time essentially. Got re-bitten by the bug towards the end of '06 when I bought a keg system. I had tried and failed miserably in '05 at kits and bottling (oh to know then what I know now!), kept the gear and saved the coin for the keg system. Moved interstate and was fairly mobile so progressed slowly to partials. Brewed my last partial in mid december '08 and made the switch to 3v AG in 09. Really only brew for myself and I'm not a huge drinker so consumption is slowish. A few mates and relatives are starting to show an interest so I'll be brewing my first 'contract' brew shortly for the old man. Payment is in equal literage of the nice cab sav he makes :icon_cheers: 

This is my first full calender year of brewing AG brews so it will be interesting to see how many I do (at work so can't access beersmith)

As for the LHBS? Well, they are nice people and friendly to talk to. Lets leave it at that.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/10/10)

matr said:


> This is where the penny dropped with me. Doing partials and thinking.. Shit I could be doing a full batch if I had the gear coz it takes the same amount of time (probably less as your not worrying about warming cans of liquid malt or trying to disolve DME).
> 
> That's why the BIAB gear is getting put together now.



I've given a ton of advice, especially over the last 2 weeks (in a very kind manner, mind you) saying "if you are soaking grains and adding them to your brew, you have most of the technique there. Then I get met with lame answers like "I'm too scared to make a recipe" or "I don't know which recipe to do and the hopping thing scares me". Even had the same thing when I told someone "you are basically extract brewing, but with a tin of already hopped go, why not give extract brewing a go and choose your own hopping schedule", it'll take minimally extra time. And still had them go "maybe later". I felt like saying "look, I got three kids under 6 - I can make the time every few weeks or so and they don't suffer at all, how can you say you have 'no time'".

This forum is fantastic and full of knowledgeable people, willing to share - but some people are just plain lazy. You hold their hand through the entire process and they still find an excuse to say it's too hard.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant (which it does on re-read), but fantastic guides like Nick_JD's are there, provided for free, and at the expense of his time. Tons of helpful persons donate their time and expertise for free on this forum alone (although there is a minority of AG nazi's, most are lovely people). You got a question, someone will have an answer (or several). And yet some people will still put it in the too hard basket and will stay where they are.

So maybe another "what has stopped..." answer is "some people are just plain lazy". :blink: 

Goomba


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## Cortez The Killer (19/10/10)

I was probably overwhelmed by some of the guides for AG brewing and was trying to get my head around water adjustments and other advanced topics before understanding what was going on in the brewing process

Also the prospect of chilling was mentally a big hurdle for me 

I went back to K+K and along my merry way

When I revisited AG using a cube had become the rage and convinced me to step up to AG

SAH invited me around for a brewday and along with some most excellent beers expedited my foray in AG by probably 3 months

I reckon actually seeing the process of AG on a basic system is a great catalyst for getting into AG 

Making decent beer via AG isn't particularly difficult, as I tell people who ask me how I make beer;

What you do is see, crush some grain, stick it in hot water for an hour, drain the now sweet water out, and boil the resulting liquid for an hour adding hops for flavour during the boil.

The ways in which you achieve the above are numerous and can vary fantastically in complexity 

Both BIAB and a cube have made AG accessible to far more people and are probably responsible for a significant number turning to the dark side

Cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/10/10)

Have yet to even bother with water adjustment. Our water in brisbane is on the hardish side, and that suits the styles of beers I prefer to make.

That's not to say I didn't research it though 

But yes, the process is simple, and the variations are many - it is where you need to do the reading so as to go "okay, I want this to happen, this is where I have to change it."

But stick to the basics, and you'll always end up with a drinkable beer.

Goomba


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## Mutton Chops (19/10/10)

RdeVjun said:


> Thanks for the info Mutton Chops! Might suss out the libraries, chances are though they will still have the old editions. In the mean time, could you tell us if there's now a BIAB section or reference, I guess while we're at it, No- Chill?
> TBH, I can't see myself forking out just for that though, but I'd still recommend it for a novice who's also a bookworm. :icon_cheers:



A novice I am and this book is a great read but no mention of the BIAB or No-Chill methods you're after (that I can see), maybe next edition...




argon said:


> Oh and doing a partial and saying you don't have time to do AG well then you're not actually doing a partial then. Partials and AG = same time. Mashing is mashing it takes the same time if it's all your grain or only part of the grain.


 
Good point and mark me down for a rookie mistake in my earlier post, I should have just said extracts but that aside I'm very happy with the results I've been getting and my original excuses still stand (though you blokes certainly make it hard to justify any of them  )


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## fcmcg (19/10/10)

practicalfool said:


> +1 I have to westgate brewers were exactly the opposite of the alleged "elitists". Happy to share info and discuss stuff even if they do things differently.
> I haven't met sneery brewers yet, n hope I don't.


Mate , 
Westgate were very happy to have everyone at our brew open day... We even signed up some new members...and whilst we may have a club whipping boy ( he knows who he is lol ) all westgaters are IMHO good people and good brewers ( well mostly ! )
We will have another brew open day in the future ...once we get past our swap meet and Xmas etc...anyway , thanks for coming and thanks for the positive comments !
Cheers
Ferg
Secretary
Westgate


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## beerdrinkingbob (19/10/10)

I got onboard because i was told about this site, then nick's stovetop thread did the rest.

$30 is a good starting place then invest in good scales etc.

There is only one good reason why you can't AG and that is you don't have access to heat or water!


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## Shed101 (19/10/10)

THe last partial i did, i cold-steeped the grains for 20-odd hours to good effect, so that did cut down the time a bit.


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## insane_rosenberg (19/10/10)

For me it was always just the cash. Well, for a long time anyway. I was on extract brews for about 3 years, and it was only the fact that I won both my work and social footy tipping this year that gave me the cash that I could justify spending on the jump.

When you (and your family) are living paycheck-to-paycheck and making perfectly drinkable extract brews, $260+ on a (full-boil) solution is hard to justify.

+1 word up to AHB and the BIAB crews. Only 2 batches in (and only one at drinkable stage) but couldn't be happier with the process and result.


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## pk.sax (19/10/10)

I'll add a reason why AG is harder to get into (also makes it easier in a way).

Pros of tins: no further equip req beyond K+K once you have a big pot. Loose ingredients can be purchased in any size (25g - 50g - 100g) packs and simply put in ziplocks and reused later. Doesn't jack the price up much. Spec grains can be steeped easy peasy and purchased in bulk, uncrushed and used as per need.

Cons of tins: Difficult to do small batches unless you have good sanitary ways of storing the tins, or use DME.

Con of doing small scale AG:
1. Just as time consuming as larger batches, so to do a small volume you end up asking if it was all worth it! (With extract its pretty linear, and you skip the mashing or can do it alongside the boil even).
2. Cost of ingredients and/or equipment. Yes, I've heard that you don't need to buy a mill, but how else do you get a good crush?! even with NickJD's method, min need coffee grinder. Else, get HBS to crush grain, that means you can't bulk buy or buy 25 kilo sacks, which actually ends up making AG expensive (buying crushed bagged recipes). I know I paid 18.50 for what was supposed to be 2.7 kilos but actually was 2.9+ kilos of grain this month. Even at 3 kilos, its more than 6 dollars a kilo and in ideal scenarios it should've netted me 14.5 litres of pitchable wort. That could be scaled to say 25 dollars (29.34, but lets say it gets cheaper due to bigger grain bill). at 25 dollars to the grain bill for a 23 litre batch + hops + whirlfloc/irish moss + gas used/electricity it is actually getting uneconomical. Especially beacause of the 25 dollars of grain. The alternative to get the same type of grain crush would be to buy a grain mill and thats $$$ - So, COST IS A REAL ISSUE WITH AG, one way or the other, it costs more. For people brewing 30-80 litre batches, its easy, the equipment quickly pays for itself in malt cost savings.
3. The kitchen mess you make doing stovetop mashes is always a reminder - TAKE IT OUTSIDE. That means more expensive gas + burner outlay. Possible workaround is using the barbecue... hmnn...

Pros of AG for small batches:
1. Can DO small batches (ignoring cost) without having to worry about sanitary storage of goop and LME etc.... quite a lot of freedom in this.

Thing is, a brewer just starting out AG would want to start off small with pilot batches, hopefully and learn the nuances before plunging into big ones (ppl are different, I know, well, this is me)
Also, some would like to keep it small scale anyway, not being a big beer guzzler means I also need to brew a lot less and its beer, not wine, it can only stay fresh for so long! + how much of the same can I drink, need variety. So, milling my own grain would get me over the line nicely, albeit the mill is going to push me down the 'slippery slope' a lot more than 20 dollars, even a coffee grinder costs, a lot less but does cost. Even then, if I buy 2 sacks of malt at bulk buys or even sack price to make my favourite beers and continue to buy spec malts fresh from HBS, at 3 kilos to get 15 litres of beer, that is about 17 brews, that malt will go really stale! Add to all this the hassle of blocking the kitchen up for a good 3-4 hours minimum for a measly 15 litres of wort not to mention the time :S Extracts can be boiled and hopped in 90 minutes, there is no sparge or mash involved and if there is, it can be done alongside, hops can be boiled with the extract. Much shorter process.

I'm not saying all those problems don't have solutions, not that I've found them all yet, but they are reasons why jumping to grain mashing can be quite expensive in overall terms, either with equipment or ingredients.

IN A NUTSHELL: AG is costlier unless you brew bigger batches, and the bigger the batches, the more time you spend brewing and drinking and a lot less doing other things. Not everybody's cup of tea. If equipment like the Braumeister were made more affordably, I can see more people doing it, at least, try on inexpensive equipment to get some confidence and then buy a brewing unit to do it indoors on a small scale, as it exists they are expensive and putting together a rig gets expensive really quickly. A ball valve + fittings costs you a fair bob more than $20 to get a connection between pot and fermenter happening, and you need that to make it less messy/avoid siphoning wort, just an example how the price of small things makes it a lot more expensive. No chilling sounds great in theory but how is a noob supposed to work out the differences to bittering it makes! I'm just trying to make to recipe to get something resembling good beer made! Now you will point me to a brewing software and that again costs $$.

Point is, its going to cost you, a few different ways to tackle it but it still costs you a fait bit of $$, time and effort = Determination, which, well, how many noobs would raise their hands and say they would persist with making it happen! No wonder ppl say fuk it and stick to cans = ease + cheap overall.


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## manticle (19/10/10)

Potentially mostly in terms of setting up. Cheaper than full extract in terms of ingredients and with care, can be on a par with kits.


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## nala (19/10/10)

Not sure whether the additional costs,more time involved and perceived hassle would result in a superior product !
Having said that I have just bought :
50ltr kettle
36ltr Esky (mash tun)
Victoria Grain Mill
2.4 KW Halogen Hotplate
Various valves & Fittings
Ph meter
Digital Thermometer x 2

All up around $450, just hope that the beer tastes good.


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## pk.sax (19/10/10)

manticle said:


> Potentially mostly in terms of setting up. Cheaper than full extract in terms of ingredients and with care, can be on a par with kits.



Oh, I forgot to say, To make it all worth it and work on a small scale, I mean to get a smaller carboy (12-15 litre).. easier to clean, seal up, siphoning fermented product is easy and the size will limit the amount of headspace I'm giving those small batches, just insurance really. Sucks to throw batches out especially if they are small as it talkes the same time.
Besides that, grain problem, well, contemplating making a rolling pin into a 2 roller mill (just an idea atm, I have woodworking tools, not so much metalworking tools), might look at knurling the surface to make it work. Have to hop on the next bulk buy and split a sack or two of grain.



nala said:


> All up around $450, just hope that the beer tastes good.



In the end, the tastiness will have to win it even if I manage to keep the costs down a bit. AG doesn't leave much of a scope for fasty style 'chuck it out cuz its just half an hour of effort to brew'. No offence to fasty - laziness is easy


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## sama (19/10/10)

practicalfool said:


> IN A NUTSHELL: AG is costlier unless you brew bigger batches, and the bigger the batches, the more time you spend brewing and drinking and a lot less doing other things.



quite the opposite,i found going to bigger batches meant i was brewing not as often,and just cause you have more beer available dosent meen you have to up your consumption.Brewing a double AG batch takes as much time as a single AG batch,you still mash for an hour,boil for an hour,ferment for as long,its just everythings on a bigger scale.


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## Nick JD (19/10/10)

*A Bog-Standard Aussie Ale Quaffer (18L)*

1.6kg BB Pale Malt $3.50
1.6kg BB Ale Malt $3.50
200g Caramunich $1.00
250g Sugaz $0.40
20g PoR $0.60
Stolen CPA yeast $0.00

Total: $9.00, or 50c a litre.

My gear is worth less than $50. This Aussie Ale is as good as anything made by Coopers. 

It takes about an hour of _actually doing stuff _over a 4 hour period of watching recorded TV, often sport. 

I _enjoy _brewing ... the smells and tastes and most importantly the recipe formulation and refinement.

If you brew the same simple beer as K&K AG is cheaper. It's much cheaper than Extract. But most of all - there are almost no limits to the beer you can make, and this is the true benefit of AG...

...you get to brew _anything_.


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## rotten (19/10/10)

I did K&K for years, until about 7 months ago. Since then with lots of help from forums and an obsession to learn and advance from every brew, I have moved to K&B, Extract, Partial and now 3V AG. Actually did first double batch after 4 AG brews last night. You don't have to spend up big to get going, one bit a time. Ebay has been great as I live in the middle of nowhere with no GOOD HBS within cooee. Craftbrewer, Beerbelly, Grain & Grape send all my grain, hop, yeast requirents to my door for an average of $40 or so per brew inc postage. Not bad I reckon.
Cheers

BTW perceived lack of knowledge or access to info/supplies held me back.


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## DJR (19/10/10)

Was interested in AG for a while- what put me off was the cost of ag "systems" from HBS's - but never took the time to understand what it was about and how it could be done cheaper.

Once i realised how simple it was I got right on into it - haven't really bought any new gear in a couple of years besides fermenters and new handy pails for mashtuns.


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## pk.sax (19/10/10)

That is the challenge nick, to get to that sort of economy while keeping volume small and not dumping into expensive equipment. All while trying to keep the brew day smallish.

Sama, you are saying pretty much what I said too, except that I did say that beer does have more limited shelf life and really, how much of the same stuff can you keep drinking again and again! Half the fun of HB to me is that I can toss the ingredients around and some different tasting beers. I'm really not against AG, I just felt that the original questions in OP were being largely ignored by some responses after some decent honest answers and many times the discussion lacked depth, split up the cost of equipment over litres of brew in a 2 year period and you would start to see why going AG to Nickesque economy means your equipment costs a lot. Nick is a bloody genius doing it cheapo (along with other experienced brewers, but let them tell me it costed fukall to start, learn and consistently brew cheap good beer!) Its all about finding the sweet spot I suppose.

I didn't even much touch upon the part where storage of equipment and bulk bought ingredients starts costing you: extra fridges (not kegging yet, just for hops and yeast), clean cool areas to stock malted grain, keeping lots of beer in cool temps for storage (side effect of brewing big batches). I read threads on here about guys putting on entire sheds and cubby houses to house the brewing in, installing new electrics, plumbing etc (that happens even if you refit an existing shed/garage). I'm sure some of that is just about them loving doing it but there must be some real needs as well! I bet the Doc can brew and clean up in his new brewhaus way quicker than most ppl can in their kitchens. Can end up being a really full time hobby if you take it to full enjoyment, hehe.. that can be scary. And if you say you won't up drinking with increased brewing! well, whats the fun of brewing and spending so much if you aren't going to enjoy it!

Yada yada.. yes, I am looking too far into things, but I know these things will happen.. and I am thinking they need to be accounted for.

This thread is about starting AG, yes I realise, all I'm saying is normal can brewing already stretches the ingenuity of a noob brewer and handling, storing and processing malted grain etc just adds to those troubles.

Anywho, I hope my lengthy (yes, very) procastrination helps someone understand the whole hassle of getting into it and to keep it cheap at the same time is not exactly a 30 dollar affair. With some tinkering, it must get cheaper but still a fair jump from using Malt extracts or pre hopped tins. I'll acknowledge them because I'm still playing with these issues and facing them setting my brewing up.

PS: Did I mention none of this is actually stopping me from making all grain beer


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## bum (19/10/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I've given a ton of advice, especially over the last 2 weeks (in a very kind manner, mind you) saying "if you are soaking grains and adding them to your brew, you have most of the technique there. Then I get met with lame answers like "I'm too scared to make a recipe" or "I don't know which recipe to do and the hopping thing scares me". Even had the same thing when I told someone "you are basically extract brewing, but with a tin of already hopped go, why not give extract brewing a go and choose your own hopping schedule", it'll take minimally extra time. And still had them go "maybe later". I felt like saying "look, I got three kids under 6 - I can make the time every few weeks or so and they don't suffer at all, how can you say you have 'no time'".
> 
> This forum is fantastic and full of knowledgeable people, willing to share - but some people are just plain lazy. You hold their hand through the entire process and they still find an excuse to say it's too hard.
> 
> ...


Anyone looking for the "AG elitism" on this board there it is in a nutshell above. Dumb **** complaining about people not going AG because he tells them to...in the K&B forum. Stupidity.

Speaking of the K&B forum, wouldn't that be a better place for this thread to live, mods? (Pretending for a minute that any of you even log in any more. Am I the only one who remembers that even less than a year ago you couldn't log in without seeing at least 2 mods online at all times? Pretty telling, really. Time for some new blood, Doc/Dane.)


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## drew9242 (19/10/10)

I reckon if you are not interested in learning or don't have a passion for brewing beer from scratch, it is going to be a lot harder to begin AG. I started brewing beer from cans of goop. But i always thought there was another way. Started reading another forum and then moved on to extract beers boiled on me stove. Then on to partials and then full all grain batchs on me stove simalar to Nick. But for me i always needed to change (i say improve) my system, so things are easier. So everything was a progression, and i bought gear as i went along to suit my budget. I still am buying things for my brewery, as my SWMBO says, it's never going to stop, your never going to have enough are you. So for me price did hold me back But i did without and brewed like nick while i saved some money. I would reccomend anyone interested in making beer from scatch to give it a go. The achievment you will feel when drinking such a beer is out of this world.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/10/10)

bum said:


> Anyone looking for the "AG elitism" on this board there it is in a nutshell above. Dumb **** complaining about people not going AG because he tells them to...in the K&B forum. Stupidity.
> 
> Speaking of the K&B forum, wouldn't that be a better place for this thread to live, mods? (Pretending for a minute that any of you even log in any more. Am I the only one who remembers that even less than a year ago you couldn't log in without seeing at least 2 mods online at all times? Pretty telling, really. Time for some new blood, Doc/Dane.)



Actually bum, when "AG elitism" was mentioned, you were the first name that popped into my mind.

Someone asked me a qu, in a K&K forum after mentioning that they were going to soak some grains. I offered advice about temp (after being asked), and mentioned in passing that this temp stuff is part of AG.

Then got told "AG is too hard, I don't get the mashing thing". my reply "um, you're doing it, AG is just doing it on a bigger scale" and so it went. Hard to see how that is elitist.

The other instance I mentioned was where a K&K brewer posted a question in the extract forum, and then as a result I replied as though it were an extract question. Then got told that extract brewing was too hard for a K&K person. Again, I offered no AG advice, yet I'm apparently an AG elitist.

And at least I can write a reply articulately enough without resorting to abuse, name calling and profanity. If the mods cared, they'd be booting you first for what is clearly antisocial behaviour.

Or in the more modern vernacular - you are a troll and a foul mouthed one at that.

Goomba


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## Dazza_devil (19/10/10)

Nothing, I'm just following a natural progression of learning the art of making beer.


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## Nick JD (20/10/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Or in the more modern vernacular - you are a troll and a foul mouthed one at that.



Bum's not a troll - he's just a brewing bigot. He believes there is only _One True Way _in brewing. Coincidentally, it's his way.

Still, I can hardly blame him, what with all those transgender pills - they would make anyone moody.


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## RdeVjun (20/10/10)

rotten said:


> BTW perceived lack of knowledge or access to info/supplies held me back.


A common refrain and I had the same perception. I'm convinced though that LHBS staff go to training courses to help them deliberately keep their customers in the dark, I've not been in many at all where they sing the praises of AG. They generally do themselves no favours in that regard, 'always cloudy', 'just too hard', 'these kits are just as good, if not better' etc. If my LHBS hadn't given AG such a bad rap, I'd probably still shop with them, but I eventually discovered there's plenty of on- line suppliers and the odd forum to help with this sort of thing.

practicalfool, can I run this by you- my AG setup cost me all of $20- just a 19L stockpot, although I was gifted (and still use) a BIAB bag and I already had everything else on hand, then I shouted myself a grain mill ($140) about 6 months after my first AG but that's about it. I do 25L stovetop BIAB batches (link in sig) about every week in that same stockpot, while quality certainly isn't an issue- if you'll pardon the indulgence, my entry placed 3rd in the state comp with its first foray into competitive brewing. Extract was costing me about $40 a batch, but now its about half that, perhaps a little more overall, so on economics alone it has been good enough for me. I just can't see how the Nickesque economy argument stands though? I'm probably in the minority in that there's been no need to upgrade from stovetop and I've found a bit of a comfortable sweet spot, if I had to do it all from scratch it would probably be a bit harder to balance.
I suppose there's the social cost too though, have to admit there's been some tense moments in the household which can be largely attributed to my choice of hobby and the time it consumes, but nothing so serious that a compromise couldn't be negotiated.

My 2c, hope it helps! :icon_cheers:


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## Scruffy (20/10/10)

Can I just mention _Ravioli_.

Make it from scratch?

Nah, bollox, you just open a tin...

Technically it's the same...  

The reason I started AG, from day one... 

it's like anything, it's all about priorities - you want it? make it exactly how you want... 

AG Troll? Elitist? Read the post again and try and work out what makes you angry about my typing.


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## yardy (20/10/10)

bum said:


> *Anyone looking for the "AG elitism" on this board there it is in a nutshell above. Dumb **** complaining about people not going AG because he tells them to..*




:icon_cheers:


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## Muesli (20/10/10)

Only just found this forum, & while i've only done a couple of kits so far. Will definently be trying a partial next with the goal of AG in the future.

As for the question of What has held me back... Knowledge, didn't know how. With a bit more reading on here & a book or two. AG here i come.


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## beerdrinkingbob (20/10/10)

Just my 2c

My latest brew my under $20 for 22 ltrs, It's a coopers pale clone by qldandrew

$15 for the grain and $3 for the hops, no bulk buy or milling just aussie grain from Greensborough HB

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.31 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (3.Grain 94.31 % 
0.23 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRGrain 5.03 % 
0.03 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (110.0 SRM) Grain 0.66 % 
26.00 gm Pilgrim [11.30 %] (60 min) Hops 29.0 IBU 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Coopers pale Ale Cultured [Starter 1000 mlYeast-Ale


Edit: Total cost to date $20 for 19 ltr pot, $7 for voil, $50 for good set of scales with a 20 year warranty ( brought these recently not at the start)


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## DU99 (20/10/10)

as people have stated its the equipment cost that restricts some from going AG, but as the post above has shown you can make AG for the average price of a can of goo..even if he used dry yeast its still cheap..i am going shopping on weekend for the pot and get some voile..


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (20/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> Bum's not a troll - he's just a brewing bigot. He believes there is only _One True Way _in brewing. Coincidentally, it's his way.
> 
> Still, I can hardly blame him, what with all those transgender pills - they would make anyone moody.



The point I was making is that fear is one thing that stops people from going all grain, even when the knowledge is available.

Your guide got me into it, but I find that most help I give is to extract or up-and-coming extract brewers, given I live in K&K/Extract land for 12 years.

How I could be called AG elitist when I had a whinge about it last week and have been the target of it (once from my accuser of all persons), floored me. I've repeatedly stated that extract brewing is the ideal cost v time v quality equation. AG is about flexibility of ingredients, particularly malt.

AG Elitist indeed! <--that's sarcasm

Goomba


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## beerdrinkingbob (20/10/10)

DU99 said:


> as people have stated its the equipment cost that restricts some from going AG, but as the post above has shown you can make AG for the average price of a can of goo..even if he used dry yeast its still cheap..i am going shopping on weekend for the pot and get some voile..




Du99, not sure if I told you at the Westgate brewers meeting but don't do what i did and forget to put the bag in....lol

If you need any help with you first batch PM me and I'd be happy to give you a call and give you some tips, I leave the country next Friday though for 3 weeks. 

That being said there are heaps of blokes on hear that have more experience than me that are all happy to help.

Great stuff DU99, welcome aboard :beerbang: 

Bob


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## DU99 (20/10/10)

Bob..thanks for offer of help..and i know there's plenty that will offer assistance.. :beer:


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## pk.sax (20/10/10)

Last night's posts were under the effect of copious amounts of tasty homebrew :S brain did go into overthink mode there, well.... I reread some of it and actually was in the middle of posting something when fell asleep and didn't post this morning.
Yes, manticle probably best summed it up in a one liner early on, AG can cost a lot but doesn't necessarily have to. Damn I get a bit debatative when drunk. Peace


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## Nick JD (20/10/10)

practicalfool said:


> AG can cost a lot but doesn't necessarily have to.



Apples to apples - K&K Coopers Lager with 1kg of sugar and the kit yeast is more expensive than the same recipe made with grain. 

Sure most AG is more expensive, but an all grain IIPA is not Cascade Spicy Ghost. 

If you're talking in value-for-money terms, AG is cheap - I don't particulary _enjoy _drinking K&K beer anymore.


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## argon (20/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> If you're talking in value-for-money terms, AG is cheap - I don't particulary _enjoy _drinking K&K beer anymore.




+1 by my way of thinking K&K was very expensive for me... just never could face drinking it... only did 1 K&K before adding bits and trying to improve the flavour. Tipped most of it cause it was horrendous... the only time i was happy with my own homebrew was when it was AG. Prior to that i was making stuff that, in hindsight, was barely drinkable... and certainly not for offering to others.

So by that reasoning AG is cheaper, to me, cause the beer i produce, i'm happy to consume


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## drtomc (20/10/10)

I was happy doing kits for a bit of fun. I don't drink that much - my main problem is usually getting rid of beer to make space for a new batch.  I read Oliver and Geoff's for a year or two with the impression that AG was for people who drank too much. Then I saw a reference to BIAB over hear, and I realized that AG fundamentally gives you a degree of choice which kits and extracts do not. I think the quality thing *can* be a bit of a furphy, since it's entirely possible to make excellent beers from a kit.

The main reason I stay with BIAB, and have no plans to get more sophisticated is space. I can make the beers I like; I can explore most of the design space pretty easily. I am content.

T.


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## Hatchy (20/10/10)

I was amazed when I worked out that about 35L of 1070 wort cost about $45 all up. I've spent about $600 on gear recently but I'm pretty happy with what I've got so the only short-mid term expenses in my brewery will be ingredients.


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