# Coopers Ipa Kit And Adding Hops



## jeremyeanlittle (24/7/09)

Hello brewers...

Just throwing this one out there - interested to see if I get a bite before I start the boil.

I'm planning on doing a hoppy English version of Coopers IPA (been doing basic kits for awhile) and looking to start messing around with hops.

Some research on the web found varying equations for measuring the IBU - however I'm wondering what starting IBU the kit can provides.

The plan was:
21ltr
1*Coopers IPA
1kg LME
.3kg Coopers BE (taking up room in the cupboard)
20g Target @ 40
15g Goldings @ 20
10g Goldings @ 5
20g Target @ flameout
5g Golding @ flameout
11.5 Safale 04

My main concern is this is going to be too bitter. So any advice or warning before I start on Sunday would be appreciated!
:unsure:


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## bum (24/7/09)

That one comes in at 33.8IBU at 21lt, if I remember correctly. If you put up the AA% of your hops and your boil volume etc some kind soul might work out your total IBU.


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## jeremyeanlittle (24/7/09)

bum said:


> That one comes in at 33.8IBU at 21lt, if I remember correctly. If you put up the AA% of your hops and your boil volume etc some kind soul might work out your total IBU.




Thanks mate! My immediate reaction is this is going to be way too high in the IBU stakes!

Target = 9.4%
EK Goldings = 4.8%


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## bum (24/7/09)

Without knowing your boil volume/how much malt you'll want in the boil (or how to use Beersmith properly yet!) it is hard to be exact about your final IBU - but my best estimate would be around the low 40s. Some Beersmith genius will sort it out at some point if you're lucky. But personally I don't think that looks anywhere near "too high" in IBUs for an IPA (IMO) (too many TLAs, LOL!).


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## buttersd70 (24/7/09)

boil volume, and boil gravity? (or alternatively, boil volume, and what are you adding into the boil...it can be worked out from that).

First glance, and some assmptions being made about process, and I would say way too high, off the top of my head (not calculated).....


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## Renegade (24/7/09)

Quick (and rough) calculation give me a figure of 58IBU, give or take. Quite bitter, sure, but not undrinkable. In fact I'm drinking a 60IBU Nelson Sauvin Ale as I write this. 

Bob, if you took out the 40 minute addition entirely, you would have a beer around 35IBU. 

This is based on bum's comment that this kit is 33.8IBU on its own, and also allowing for the extra malt youre adding (which if you had no hops except for flameout, would be around 29IBU.


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## bum (24/7/09)

buttersd70 said:


> First glance, and some assmptions being made about process, and I would say way too high, off the top of my head (not calculated).....



ARGH! I included all his malt in the boil. Ignore that low 40s bit, BBB. My apologies. I'll change it to somewhere just shy of 60IBU (under an assumption of a 5lt boil with 500g LDME). This is definitely high but not automatically too high, IMO.

Sorry again for the bum steer (and any further mistakes in this one).


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## bum (24/7/09)

Renegade said:


> This is based on bum's comment that this kit is 33.8IBU on its own, and also allowing for the extra malt youre adding (which if you had no hops except for flameout, would be around 29IBU.



:icon_offtopic: Sorry for the hijack but can someone link me to something explaining how I can work this out for myself since I can't put the kit's IBU value into Beersmith? PM is fine if you wanna keep this from going further OT.


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## jeremyeanlittle (24/7/09)

Thanks to all - in honesty the volume hadn't even been considered - will take the advice RE: volume and just plod as planned.


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## Renegade (24/7/09)

bum said:


> :icon_offtopic: Sorry for the hijack but can someone link me to something explaining how I can work this out for myself since I can't put the kit's IBU value into Beersmith? PM is fine if you wanna keep this from going further OT.



I create a 'dummy hop line' set at 5% AA, 60 minutes, then just jiggle with the number of grams until I reach the manufacturer's stated IBU. 

Although I'm no expert, this could be an incorrect way to apply kit can IBU's.


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## bum (24/7/09)

Well, it all seems so obvious now that you say it like that, Renegade. Cheers.

BBB, if you're after quite a bitter IPA then do what you planned. If you're after a more friendly IPA consider Renegade's advice about removing (or just reducing) the 40min addition. Personally, I'm planning on making up this kit to a similar bitterness as you plan soon so I'm not one to talk!


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## jeremyeanlittle (24/7/09)

bum said:


> Well, it all seems so obvious now that you say it like that, Renegade. Cheers.
> 
> BBB, if you're after quite a bitter IPA then do what you planned. If you're after a more friendly IPA consider Renegade's advice about removing (or just reducing) the 40min addition. Personally, I'm planning on making up this kit to a similar bitterness as you plan soon so I'm not one to talk!



Bum the more bitter the better for my tastes! So hoping this goes well. Thanks for the 5ltr + 500g LDME suggestion, will take it up!


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## buttersd70 (24/7/09)

Renegade said:


> I create a 'dummy hop line' set at 5% AA, 60 minutes, then just jiggle with the number of grams until I reach the manufacturer's stated IBU.
> 
> Although I'm no expert, this could be an incorrect way to apply kit can IBU's.



Thats basically the short version....there is a setting in beersmith where you can change an extract to a hopped extract, but imo its a complete pita, and the dummy hop line is a much better way....

full version would be....

next to equipment, click details.
click calculate boil volume automatically
leave evaporation as default.
set lost to trub and chiller to 0
set final volume
adjust topup water to give you the final volume required.
click ok

change type to "partial mash" (theres a reason for this - it's so you can check th boil gravity. If left as extract, the button that shows you the boil gravity is disabled.)

Enter ingredients.
Once entered, if you double click an ingredient, you have an option to tick "add after boil"
for any malt being added (other than the kit)....split it, so that 105g per litre of boil volume is _not _"add after boil" for dry, 130g per litre of boil volume for liquid.
click "brewhouse efficiency" and check est boil gravity - it should now read 1040. If not, then redistribute your malt accordingly (between boil/add after boil).
enter a dummy row in the hopping schedule, to give you the same IBU level as the tin....which, in the case of coopers, is IBU x 1.7/volume.
enter your other hops as per their specifics.

There is an option in the ingredients, where you can enter a "fake" hop equivilency, for hopped extract...but imo, it does funny things, and is better to be added in to the hop schedule anyway.

This is just one way; I'm sure there are others.


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## Renegade (24/7/09)

Boil volume is mentioned as an important part of calculating IBU. Why ? For the ratio of hop material to liquid (very small vs very large), anything over a few litres, such as as any variation between 5 litres and 20 litres, I would have thought, would perform in a similar way as an extraction solvent (for wont of a better word).

It's often stated that boil gravity is an important consideration (for the new brewers reading at home - 'sugars to water' ratio) and I'm in no position to discount that, if it's been tried & tested. Is the importance of boil volume, and subsequent evaporation (thus changing the boil gravity) the answer to paragraph one, ie calculatable gravity ? 

Without readily available tools for brewers at home to measure IBU, how do we establish extraction efficiency of hop goodies, or more to the point, the variations between say (A) an overly dense malty solvent, (B) a 'recommended gravity' boil, and &copy; a plain water boil.... Don't misunderstand my enquiry, far be it from me to reinvent the wheel. I'm happy to run with the commonly accepted method, but would like to know the 'why'. Particularly between (B) & &copy;

And lastly, what is the % variation in extraction efficiency ? Anything <10% would be my guess, and if that's the case, it's not a huge difference for most beer profiles. 

I genuinely welcome clarification on this topic.


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## bum (24/7/09)

Brewing Bob Bardsley said:


> Bum the more bitter the better for my tastes! So hoping this goes well.



Then your plan is seems an absolute cracker! Let us know how it goes! Can't take any credit for the advice - credit goes to the many learned members of the board who kindly help people like you and me.

Speaking of...Butters, thanks for the hand-holding. I will run that method through tomorrow and see how I go. :icon_cheers:


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## buttersd70 (24/7/09)

:icon_offtopic: 
renegade. The importance of the boil volume depends on what formulatin you are using. Rager (or is it garetz? I forget which) considers the boil volume to be relevant. Tinseth, on the other hand, doesn't....I use tinseth, myself. From my perspective, I only really need to know the boil volume (or to set the boil volume in software) in order to know (or to set in the software) the more important thing; that is, boil gravity. And yes, gravity makes a _huge _diference to the formulation. well above 10%...

A quick example....kit and kilo, to 23L final volume. Lets say, 30g of 5%AA for 60min. Just as an example. Boil volume of 5L.
1.7kg lme
1 kg ldme

if enough ldme is added to give a boil volume of 1040, and then the rest of the malt is added at the end of the boil, you end up with 16.4IBU
if all the malt, including the kit, is added to the boil, you end up with 4.7IBU (from the hops)

so almost three and a half times difference. That's substantial.

evaporation in the boil, will, as you say, cause the wort to reduce down, increasing it's gravity, throughout the boil. But each hop utilization formula deals with it in a different way. Not wanting to duck your question, but it can get lengthy, and detailed, and way, way OT. As well as having been discussed multiple times on this board (particularly in the AG section)....
I would suggest that you have a read of Tinseths page here
his numbers (and sources) are linked in the page. Also google Garetz and Rager. (they're the other main formulas used). Also have a read of Ianh's thread about his spreadsheet....it uses the one that utilises the volume of the boil as a variable, and theres been some discussion of the validity of that in that thread...I think the reasoning behind the 'sugested' 1040 bg is detailed as well. (although the short version of that, it's _easy _to roughly hit that gravity. 100g ldm/L and you're pretty much there).


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## Renegade (25/7/09)

Thanks for the links, and the response. I'll admit that I had a glance (as done previously) and shall endeavor to spend the time to look into it in detail. 

The big question, I suppose, for me is whether we are extracting characteristics of the same compounds from the hop at each stage (@60, 40, 30, 5 etc) or whether there are various chemical components within the vegetable matter. Uneducated speculation may hypothesis that while bittering alkaloids are shown to be released to their full potential with a polar solvent (BG notwithstanding) bath at a rolling boil for 60 minutes, is this to detriment to the 'flavouring' & 'aromatic' potential ? Is the bitterness masking these potentials, or is the 60 minute boil destroying them ? I would blindly, and without any arguable substantianable (sp? WTF) arguments on this, err on the latter. 

On the subject of the importance in 'x' gravity being more efficient than a 1.00 BG.... without the facilities of mass spectral analysis (or whatever you would use to measure this, I'm not well versed in analysis!), we are restricted to our tastebuds as the only equipment available to determine the outcomes. And as a complex species with such defined faculties of taste, a hop boil of 60 minutes in water compared to a hop boil of 60 minutes in 1.040 water/sugar may be misleading as to actual efficiency due to the elements of sweetness in the resultant product skewing the testing platform. The 'facts' in the world of brewing suggest a far greater extraction efficiency with a malted solvent. OK, then. A good test, (for me when I get the time & inclination) will be to perform two hop boils, identical in every way but for the gravity difference, then serve them up in a double-blind test with some friends & family and let them determine which is more bitter. If the high gravity liqor gets the nod (as the most vile LOL) then that will settle it. 

I should make mention that I don't believe for a second that a super-high-gravity boil has any virtue in the extraction process - I'm talking about an 8 litre boil that includes a kit can in the mix  I'm not even going to test that one. 

A better-versed member with experience in organic chemistry might try an acid/base extraction and isolate the favourable components (in this discussion, the bitterness) of the resins & oils, then introduce the resultant product into a batch, then using a common comparable amount of 'raw' hops through a boil process, and conduct a side-by-side fermentation. Actually, if I could pull my finger out of my arse (some would say I should focus on my buried head !) I might extend the water vs malted water experiment with a crude acetone extraction. The big problem I see with that is the amount of chlorophyll and other shitty vegetative waxes that I might end up with. 

Phew. After all that, I've only really been considering the bitterness aspect of hops in this carry-on post. Flavour & Aroma will have to wait for another session. At the end of all this, I'm not going to sway from the widely accepted 'best methodology', but focus on works best after repeated experimentation. And with all that arduous practical science which lays ahead, I'll need to somehow get rid of the end product that we call 'beer'. Oh the sacrifices I make for backyard science. 


EDIT: Self-Indulgence Moderating


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## Hatchy (19/2/10)

Sorry about being slightly off topic in a slightly old thread but I'm currently drinking the 1st bottle of my first brew with this kit. After the 1st glass I decided to sit down with another glass & my brew diary to see how to get it less bitter. I only used 40g of goldings, 35g for 15 min & 15g straight into the wort, I also used 500g of dex & 500 of LDME. It's the 1st kit that I've done anything other than a k&k. My guess is more hops, more LDME & ditch the dex but if I knew that was going to be a good idea I wouldn't be posting here.

It's only been in the bottles 8 days and holds a head better than I've seen on some commercial beers. It also fermented at or around 26 due to the fact that it's really hard to keep fermenters at 20 in a bath during summer in Adelaide.

Sorry if that made no sense. For some reason I decided it would be easier to post this on my phone instead of turning my laptop on. Looks like I got that 1 wrong.


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## bum (19/2/10)

A higher percentage of LDME is one way to get it less bitter. As is a large amount of steeped speciality grains. More hops is not the best way to get the bitterness down. Infact, it is the worst - hops add bitterness. But for my money the easiest way to get this kit's bitterness down is not to use this kit. It is an IPA kit. IPAs are bitter. And, as I'm sure you know, 26 degrees is not the way to get the best flavours out of this, or any, kit.

The bitterness will mellow over time. Get another brew on asap and sit on this one for a while. You might find it more enjoyable in a few months.


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## Hatchy (19/2/10)

Right, I didn't know IPA was such a bitter beer but now that I think about it I can't remember an IPA that I'd drunk before last night. I reckon I'll try that one again with 1kg LDME & get rid of the dex & see what happens. I'd imagine that if I do a google search it shouldn't be too hard to find out which kit has which IBU's. I'm working on the 26 degree issue, I've teed up a fermenting fridge but my mate who owns a ute is tough to get hold of.

I've got 1 bit right. I've got 3 fermenters going at the moment & ready to be bottled on Monday (I reckon). I suppose it's just going to come down to brewing (& drinking) more beer to see what beers I like more than others. This is easily the best beer I've brewed already, I'm looking forward to enjoying some of my future efforts even more.


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## levin_ae92 (19/2/10)

I think its probably better to decide what kind of beer your after first. If youve never tried an IPA before how do you know you want to make one? If you do make an IPA, I would leave the dex in so you finish with a slighlty lower gravity, this will bring the alcohol up to an 'IPA' level, and allow the hops to shine a bit more over the malt.

Maybe try Neills centenarillo recipe, but change the hops to suit you. I just brewed one the other day, but used simcoe and amarillo. Made the whole laundry smell like hops!! Its brilliant!

Also, i think you should maybe start a new thread, as we seem to have hijacked Brewing Bob's thread.

P.S. brewing bob, how did the beer turn out?


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## bum (19/2/10)

Hatchy said:


> This is easily the best beer I've brewed already, I'm looking forward to enjoying some of my future efforts even more.



As it happens that same tin is also the best kit beer I ever turned out. I do have something of a soft spot for it. If it was just the bitterness you didn't enjoy maybe try the same recipe (hops and all) but swap the IPA tin out for something less bitter but a somewhat similar style like a real ale tin or the english bitter tin (not suggesting these styles are the same but I think the goop inside the tins is not necessarily representative of the names on the tin). A bit spec grain always helps things along too.


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## Kieren (20/2/10)

bum said:


> A higher percentage of LDME is one way to get it less bitter. As is a large amount of steeped speciality grains. More hops is not the best way to get the bitterness down. Infact, it is the worst - hops add bitterness. But for my money the easiest way to get this kit's bitterness down is not to use this kit. It is an IPA kit. IPAs are bitter. And, as I'm sure you know, 26 degrees is not the way to get the best flavours out of this, or any, kit.
> 
> The bitterness will mellow over time. Get another brew on asap and sit on this one for a while. You might find it more enjoyable in a few months.



Hi Bum,

Can you please explain how adding more malt extract will reduce the bitterness? 

Kieren


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## bum (20/2/10)

Sorry. The _apparent_ bitterness. The increased underlying sweetness of the added malt decreases the perceived bitterness. Same idea as the added spec grains. 

Of which I'm sure you're well aware.


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## Kieren (20/2/10)

bum said:


> Sorry. The _apparent_ bitterness. The increased underlying sweetness of the added malt decreases the perceived bitterness. Same idea as the added spec grains.
> 
> Of which I'm sure you're well aware.



I thought that's what you meant. Just clarifying, cheers.


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## levin_ae92 (20/2/10)

Kieren said:


> Hi Bum,
> 
> Can you please explain how adding more malt extract will reduce the bitterness?
> 
> Kieren



It will if its added into the boil


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