# Worms-biab



## nala (3/10/11)

Before I begin my topic can I say that I have no particular skills as a DIY'er no computer skills and even less brewing skills.
I read the AHB forums religiously every day and and very impressed with those members who have the skills to make things to help them improve their brewing ability, recently I saw that a member is making a copy of a Speidel Braumeister,
I have neither the necessary skills or the tools to make a start.
A friend has bought a Braumeister and although I have not seen it in operation he is very well pleased with his purchase.
I have seen a video on Youtube and have got the basic gist of what the Braumeister does :

a:- recirculates the wort by pumping through a malt tube,cascading by overflow to the pump,being heated to the required mashing temperature and recirculating for the required time - all by computer control.

b:- ability to be programmed to step mash at any given temperature.

c:- boil the extracted wort and produce a very clear wort ready for fermentation.

I thought about this and wondered whether I could achieve the same with my BIAB set-up by introducing a pump and a mashing temperature controller.

I have given it a go and will reveal my results, worts and all, for you to see and hopefully get some advice as to how I can improve on what I have made, as I said previously I have limited tools and little skill so I have used Bunnings as my source of supply for the most part. The STC temperature controller I already have to control my fridge the pump
I bought from the UK for about $47 delivered to Australia.











Pictures shows water being pumped through sparge ring.




This was made from Bunnings soft copper coil fashioned into a circle to fit inside the Crown Urn,
a "T" piece soldered with an upright extension, a further circle was made and soldered with a "T" piece to ceate
the inner circlce sparge ring. I drilled holes 2mm dia around the inside of both circles as wort spray outlets,
the short upright connects to the pump via a flexible tap connector.
The existing tap on the Crown Urn was reconnected to a 1/2 NPT thread "T" and the other outlet connected via 
a flexible tap connector to the pump, I chose flexible connectors as this create a good seal without the use of tools
to create a leak free joint and have proved easy to clean after use.




This shows a Trivet and a Trivet support, the trivet support was again made from soft copper tube and is designed
to suspend the trivet above the base of the boiler to stop any chance of bag burn, I actually put it on 3 legs and made
it high enough so that the trivet is above the drain tap hole, this stops the bag being sucked into the hole and blocking the pump, I soldered end stops onto the feet to seal the whole trivet support. I think all BIAB'ers should make one of these



This a transfer tube I made from the leftover piece of copper pipe it is connected to a leftover piece of 1/2 NPT all thread, it is made long enough to stand on the bottom of the cube when I transfer the no chill wort from the HLT.
Avoids this risk of scalding and requires no hands when transferring.




I will be trying out the WORMS-BIAB system tomorrow, hope all goes well, I will let you know whether or not !


----------



## Blackapple (3/10/11)

For no skills looks pretty good to me.

Someones being modest.

Look forward to hearing the result.


----------



## matho (3/10/11)

awesome, good work :super: 

cheers matho


----------



## yardy (3/10/11)

nice job, interested to see how the first brew goes.
all it needs is a malt pipe.

Yard


----------



## jbowers (3/10/11)

Hate to say it dude, but whilst you may not have had DIY skills when you started this project, you certainly do now. Looks great.


----------



## Deebo (3/10/11)

Sure look a lot more handy than me. 

Can I ask where you got the trivet/cake rack thing? I have been keeping an eye out but so far havent found one for my urn around perth (I found a black painted one but am unsure if this will be ok in the mash).


----------



## nala (3/10/11)

Deebo said:


> Sure look a lot more handy than me.
> 
> Can I ask where you got the trivet/cake rack thing? I have been keeping an eye out but so far havent found one for my urn around perth (I found a black painted one but am unsure if this will be ok in the mash).



This one I got from Kitchen Witch in Mandurah $9 it is 32cms dia.
The other I got from a camping shop also in Mandurah a bit heavier guage metal but cost $12.


----------



## Tim F (3/10/11)

Rockin'. Looking forwards to hearing how it works out!
Where are you measuring the wort temperature?


----------



## mesa99 (4/10/11)

From what I've heard, the STC temp probe is not water proof, how have you overcome this?


----------



## raven19 (4/10/11)

I would certainly look at introducing a thermowell for the STC probe. I use one in my HLT inside a thermowell.


----------



## bignath (4/10/11)

That looks really impressive nala.

It'll make beer for sure!


----------



## MarkBastard (4/10/11)

Very nicely done. Only issue I can see is that because you're using a bag, as soon as you lift the bag you will lose any clarity you achieved during the recirculation process.


----------



## felten (4/10/11)

Looks fantastic. Agree with Mark though, definitely needs a malt pipe or something like that.


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (4/10/11)

awesome work! :beerbang:


----------



## RdeVjun (4/10/11)

Well done, quite industrious! :super: 
One thing that would worry me is grain debris blockages in either the pump or sparge ring, perhaps a stainless scrubby on the tap inlet would help prevent that.
Also, M^B has a point, perhaps when the mash is finished, drain it all into the cube temporarily, lift the bag out, flush any debris out and then return the liquor for boiling, doing that could avoid compromising the clarity which the recirculation may bring. Continue to drain the bag over the trivet or rack in a bucket, squeeze etc, even sparge it if desired and return all of the runnings to the urn after a few minutes settling where most of the larger debris should drop out. Probably not ideal as far as efficient processes go, but we have what kit we have! 
Good luck with the maiden voyage! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Maheel (4/10/11)

i would think about using a quick disconnect on that pump rather than be screwing the metal fighting on and off, i think it might bugger the thread...

maybe some brass (or ss?) garden hose connecter things on the pump / pipe ?

looks pretty cool !!

we need pics of the brew day !!


----------



## stux (4/10/11)

Lead free solder?


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

Tim F said:


> Rockin'. Looking forwards to hearing how it works out!
> Where are you measuring the wort temperature?



About 150mm below the surface, just dangling the probe in.
I am hoping that I get suggestions as to where to site the temperature probe.
I have considered removing the site tube from the boiler and inserting a small thermowell instead.


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

mesa99 said:


> From what I've heard, the STC temp probe is not water proof, how have you overcome this?



Had'nt heard that it was not water proof, some brewers insert the probe into a water bottle when in use to control a
fermentation fridge.


----------



## Tim F (4/10/11)

i've been wondering about probe location for this type of system too. Since you are directly heating the wort you might want the probe pretty close to the element so you don't get part of it too hot? I wonder if its best to measure at the outlet of the urn before it hits the pump?


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Very nicely done. Only issue I can see is that because you're using a bag, as soon as you lift the bag you will lose any clarity you achieved during the recirculation process.



Absolutely right Mark, this is a prototype and I am looking for suggestions to make improvements.
I am not an experienced brewer but I read a lot of interesting things on AHB and although I say so myself I am 
able to think outside the box, some brewers are looking to step mash and others the ability to add heat to the mash
without burning the bag, what I achieved in this very "string and chewing gum" effort is the ability to recirculate
the wort,control the step temperatures, and not burn the bag.
I appreciate all comments.


----------



## argon (4/10/11)

Tim F said:


> i've been wondering about probe location for this type of system too. Since you are directly heating the wort you might want the probe pretty close to the element so you don't get part of it too hot? I wonder if its best to measure at the outlet of the urn before it hits the pump?


If you have a look at the HERMS thread alot of guys put the temp sensor on the outlet of the HERMS. Meaning they are measuring the wort at it's hottest. For this system i would be doing the same, by putting the probe on the tap outlet before entering the pump.


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

RdeVjun said:


> Well done, quite industrious! :super:
> One thing that would worry me is grain debris blockages in either the pump or sparge ring, perhaps a stainless scrubby on the tap inlet would help prevent that.
> Also, M^B has a point, perhaps when the mash is finished, drain it all into the cube temporarily, lift the bag out, flush any debris out and then return the liquor for boiling, doing that could avoid compromising the clarity which the recirculation may bring. Continue to drain the bag over the trivet or rack in a bucket, squeeze etc, even sparge it if desired and return all of the runnings to the urn after a few minutes settling where most of the larger debris should drop out. Probably not ideal as far as efficient processes go, but we have what kit we have!
> Good luck with the maiden voyage! :icon_cheers:



Did not get any problems with blocked holes in the sparge ring I did anticipate this and had got a bit of bent wire to 
poke into the holes did"nt use it, the pump just pumped away no problems at all.
I will post my brewday pictures later today.


----------



## Gar (4/10/11)

That looks awesome, look forward to some results!


----------



## Bribie G (4/10/11)

Awesome work, Nala - for someone who is a DIY reject what's your next project - scramjet for the airforce ? 

I'm doing an experiment at the weekend with a malt pipe, just a bunnings handy pail with a heap of half inch holes drilled in the bottom and one of these sitting above the holes and that elbow blanked off for this particular exercise. Your sparging and recirculating system looks great and with a malt pipe you would maintain clarity, even when the malt pipe is pulled. Also I reckon you could fly sparge to a certain extent if the spray mechanism could follow the malt pipe as it is raised, but that's another chapter  

On Sunday I'll just be doing it all manually but will post with pics of how it went. Looking forward to your brew day photos as well.


----------



## Tim F (4/10/11)

argon said:


> If you have a look at the HERMS thread alot of guys put the temp sensor on the outlet of the HERMS. Meaning they are measuring the wort at it's hottest.


True but the difference is a herms heats the wort outside the mash tun while the element here is in the tun. If you measure temp at the return the element might be running quite a few degrees higher due to heat loss through the pump and hose, which will affect the mash above the element. I think you want to measure as close to the element as practical but the best way to figure it out would be to read temps at different places in the mash while it's running.


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

As promised some more pictures and comment on my Wort Recircualting Mashing System WORMS-BIAB.

I decided for practical reasons to use the Braumeister step mashing schedule, the step temperatures should prove
whether the system can work.

The mash schedule -- 38o - mash in
55o - 5mins
63o - 30mins
72o - 20mins
78o - 10mins 

Mashed in at 38o started pump and recirculated,all looks good





I have to re-set the STC 1000 at the end of each cycle to the next step temperature,did'nt find this a problem
the heater kicked in and ramped up to the next temperature.
I had set the temperature parameters to +/- .5o, I found that the thermal inertia of the boiler overshot the upper limit
by 0.4o - on the lower temperature parameter the under limit was spot on.
All temperature schedules were completed without incident,did not have a blockage in the spray/sparge ring holes
had anticipated there might be so had a bent piece of wire on standby.




Bribie "G" recommended the hangmans noose and pulley, I find this a good way to lift the bag and drain,
I actually squeeze the bag with two glass saucepan lids to get as much wort as possible.
Bribie, I believe no longer squeezes the "OLd Bag" he lays her on a wire grid, must be painful for all concerned !




Started with 33 litres of water, got 28.5 litres of wort, toppped up to pre-boil volume of 31 litres
and began the boil.
Boiled for 60 minutes and ended with 27.5 litres of wort.




Transferring to a no-chill cube, the transfer pipe is a very useful bit of kit from the last piece of copper pipe that I had.
I am not claiming any great efficiencies by this method as I am not skilled enough to know what I could or should get by the traditional single temperature BIAB versus a step mash schedule.
Lessons learned -- 
1. The addition of a 1/2NPT thread "T" to connect the tap and the pump pipework,this doubles as a wort transfer
facility, I would recommend to all who no chill to introduce this if only for safety reasons.
2. The trivet support and trivet for all BIABers to keep the bag off the element - I raised the trivet above the tap
outlet.
3. If I started again, I would NOT buy a CROWN urn with a concealed element, this is PITA, the failure of the 
thermostat to operate when it has the slightest coating of wort residue on the heater element circle in the base
of the urn is a major problem that many are familiar with, I find to keep the urn boiling I have to scrape the 
base circle with my mash spoon to remove some of the scorched wort.
I am asking my electrician to by-pass the thermostat as I have never need it and would use my STC1000 to 
maintain the required temperature.
4. As I stated I am not a DIYer, the reason everything is circular is that I bought a coil of soft copper to make a
wort chiller, went into hospital for a hip replacement, had a lot of time to think, decided it would be immoral 
to use a wort chiller here in WA. Wife said you have wasted your money then on the copper,that was all I needed.
To start again I would make everything square using elbows and tees, I think I could achieve the wort circulation 
without the need of a circular sprayring, I would also make a square trivet support.


----------



## stux (4/10/11)

nala said:


> Had'nt heard that it was not water proof, some brewers insert the probe into a water bottle when in use to control a
> fermentation fridge.



Condsidering the probe is designed for an aquarium I would expect it to be waterproof.... but I wouldn't want to subject it to boiling wort... it is quite plasticcy

Craftbrewer and others sell a replacement stainless steel probe


----------



## stux (4/10/11)

nala said:


> As promised some more pictures and comment on my Wort Recircualting Mashing System WORMS-BIAB.
> 
> I decided for practical reasons to use the Braumeister step mashing schedule, the step temperatures should prove
> whether the system can work.
> ...




For what its worth, I think your concentric wort returns look pretty/elegant


----------



## aaronpetersen (4/10/11)

Your brew-rig looks great Nala. I am currently in the process of building something similar myself. One thing I can't decide on is the best method for wort return. You mentioned that you wouldn't use your current method if you did it again. What would you do instead?


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

AaronP said:


> Your brew-rig looks great Nala. I am currently in the process of building something similar myself. One thing I can't decide on is the best method for wort return. You mentioned that you wouldn't use your current method if you did it again. What would you do instead?



Buy an electric boiler without a thermostat or one with an exposed element, any way not a Crown concealed element.


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

Stux said:


> Condsidering the probe is designed for an aquarium I would expect it to be waterproof.... but I wouldn't want to subject it to boiling wort... it is quite plasticcy
> 
> Craftbrewer and others sell a replacement stainless steel probe



I only use the STC for mashing temperatures, highest being 78oC.
There was no sign of softness on the probe at this temperature.
I will buy a thermowell 4omm from Craftbrewer in due course, I appreciate advice and am hoping to glean some
good suggestions from others experiences.


----------



## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

That is awesome, well done. I am in the planning stages also at the moment. I do have a open element boiler, but I have to get a control box. Ours went as part of a Yr 12 Physics assignment wind tunnel and we never got it back. It now keeps flicking the safety switch as it uses so much power to boil without the control. My mash beer has suffered, as I am stuck making adjunct beers until I can buy one.


----------



## MarkBastard (4/10/11)

nala, for what it's worth I bypassed the boil dry protection on my crown before I used it for the first time.

Haven't had any issues with my crown.


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> nala, for what it's worth I bypassed the boil dry protection on my crown before I used it for the first time.
> 
> Haven't had any issues with my crown.


Thanks Mark, I intend to get it done before the next brewday


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

AaronP said:


> Your brew-rig looks great Nala. I am currently in the process of building something similar myself. One thing I can't decide on is the best method for wort return. You mentioned that you wouldn't use your current method if you did it again. What would you do instead?


The wort return is good, I made it that way because I had a coil of soft copper pipe which was already coiled.
If I made another the easiest way would be to make it as a straight piece of tube across the boiler, I am not sure that the circular pipe does anything better - just looks good !


----------



## leonjw (4/10/11)

Hi nala,

I've pretty much done the same as you except with a PID controller and a big pot with a craftbrewer element. 

I've got the same pump as you and was wondering what hoses you used to connect it all up? they look like the plumbing hoses you can buy at Bunnings. 

sweet looking system you've got!

Cheers

LJ


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

leonjw said:


> Hi nala,
> 
> I've pretty much done the same as you except with a PID controller and a big pot with a craftbrewer element.
> 
> ...



Yes they are Bunnings plumbing hoses, the long one is for a mixer tap and the other can be bought at various lengths.
I would like a PID controller but would not be capable of setting it up.


----------



## VBisGod (4/10/11)

I didnt read every post but the thing that comes to my attention.... the urn heating from the bottom during the steps,? isnt the grain bed very very hot on the bottom?
I ran something similiar on the weekend and found when my thermo read the next step of 66, i stirred the mash and then i had 69-70. Perhaps i am missing something other than the bottom of grain bed is probably at mash out temp.


----------



## nala (4/10/11)

VBisGOD said:


> I didnt read every post but the thing that comes to my attention.... the urn heating from the bottom during the steps,? isnt the grain bed very very hot on the bottom?
> I ran something similiar on the weekend and found when my thermo read the next step of 66, i stirred the mash and then i had 69-70. Perhaps i am missing something other than the bottom of grain bed is probably at mash out temp.



It could be I dont know.
I have a trivet support which is 130mm off the bottom of the urn, that is how far the bottom of the bag is from the heat source. The recirculation is 6 litres per minute which means that a complete recirculation of the 33 litres of mash water/wort takes 5.5 minutes. I made the centre spray/sparge ring with a diameter large enough to allow me to 
mash or stir with my Bunnings paint stirrer.


----------



## Tim F (4/10/11)

VBisGOD said:


> I didnt read every post but the thing that comes to my attention.... the urn heating from the bottom during the steps,? isnt the grain bed very very hot on the bottom?
> I ran something similiar on the weekend and found when my thermo read the next step of 66, i stirred the mash and then i had 69-70. Perhaps i am missing something other than the bottom of grain bed is probably at mash out temp.



Yeah that's why I suspect you'd be better off measuring temp where wort exits the urn, easy to fit it there with a t piece and thermowell and that wort will be flowing past the element so should be near the hottest point in the system. It would be really interesting to stick a probe at the wort exit, wort return, top middle and bottom of the mash and see how much they all vary - no idea what the results would be but it'd be great to know for others building a system like this.


----------



## keifer33 (4/10/11)

Looks like a sweet setup man. Id definetly get a stainless steel probe or a thermowell just to protect that little bit of plastic. Some of the shops over here have them ready to go or order on line. Also good thing not wasting water and no chilling seens we are apparently so limited for water here.


----------



## joshuahardie (5/10/11)

Looking good.
Subscribed. I wanna see how this one pans out.


----------



## afromaiko (15/11/11)

nala said:


> It could be I dont know.
> I have a trivet support which is 130mm off the bottom of the urn, that is how far the bottom of the bag is from the heat source. The recirculation is 6 litres per minute which means that a complete recirculation of the 33 litres of mash water/wort takes 5.5 minutes. I made the centre spray/sparge ring with a diameter large enough to allow me to
> mash or stir with my Bunnings paint stirrer.



I see they also sell 8 and 11 litres/min versions of those pumps now. Do you think going for the higher flow rate would be better?


----------



## SimonMatthee (6/5/14)

Hi All,

Thanks Nala for the detailed info. I am in the same boat as you and have just embarked on a very similar upgrade to my BIAB system.

I've added a pump and keg king thermostat with thermowell, basically the same as you have there. I've tested it twice now and it keeps the wort to within 1C of the set temp which is a HUGE improvement on the +/- 10C plus hot spots with the urn alone.

My question is, what is the advantage of that fancy looking copper wort return? I've just got mine pumping straight back into the wort and it seems to be working well, I'm just wondering what do you gain from the even wort return you've got there?

Cheers,
Simon

PS, here is a pic of it post boil:


----------

