# Wort Chill Method



## Kleiny (13/1/08)

Heres a poll to get some response

Give me the good and bad experiences with the different equipment 
and tell me which way you prefer to chill 

With a lot of the chilling equipment costing around the same $$$$ i need some sort of idea
of which way to go (im still considering no chill as well)


have fun :beer:


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## Screwtop (13/1/08)

Use three methods. Using the Immersion Chiller recirculating swimming pool water for an hour gets the wort down to 30C in summer. 

Using a 30 plate chiller recirculating and whirlpooling wort, and recirculating swimming pool water through the Imm Chiller in an ice water bath for pre chilling and then through the plate chiller for 1 hour gets the wort down to 24. 

Once all the wort is in the kettle I heat water in the HLT with a little caustic for cleaning. Usually finished cleaning the MLT, heat exchanger, pump and hoses and have drained and cleaned the HLT by the time the boil is finished. The kettle is cleaned separately after draining to the cube or fermenter, final job for the day. 

Using the plate chiller I have to wait until the wort is chilled and then flush through the pump, hoses and chiller, then drain and clean the HLT before cleaning the kettle. Adds more time and cleaning to my brew day :angry:

No chill occasionally which shortens the brew day considerably


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## andreic (13/1/08)

no chill all the way - never tried anything else. One day I might get a chiller... after getting a keg setup, a separate HLT and burner, grain mill, rainwater tanks and many other essential purchases... the chiller's probably some time off yet!

Andrei


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## warra48 (13/1/08)

Counter flow chiller to get temp down to about 30C in 30 minutes.
I also use a pre-chiller, which is a smaller coil of copper tubing in line with the counter flow chiller inlet, and this sits in an ice bath. Drops it down to 20C in another 10 to 15 minutes, depending on the season.
Ales are pitched at about this temperature.
For lagers, the fermenter sits in the fridge overnight for pitching the next day at about 10 to 12C.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (13/1/08)

andreic said:


> no chill all the way - never tried anything else. One day I might get a chiller... after getting a keg setup, a separate HLT and burner, grain mill, rainwater tanks and many other essential purchases... the chiller's probably some time off yet!
> 
> Andrei



Yes! Unless you have infinite means, I think it makes sense to work out where you get maximum value from your spend. This is not being cheap, but understanding what you want/need/desire and how to get the high priority stuff sooner.

I'm kinda dancing with the chiller devil atm, but to do it the way I would want to will cost me far more than just a heat exchanger, so I expect I will be nochilling (perhaps with the enhancement of a water bath) for some time to come. (Ditto proper kegging which probably won't happen until next house.)


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## RobB (13/1/08)

Has anyone tried Mr Malty's immersion chiller plus vortex technique? See it here: http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

Link

It sounds very efficient but I'm wondering if all the testimonials are coming from brewers knee-deep in snow.

I'm currently an ice bather.


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## sah (14/1/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Yes! Unless you have infinite means, I think it makes sense to work out where you get maximum value from your spend. This is not being cheap, but understanding what you want/need/desire and how to get the high priority stuff sooner.
> 
> I'm kinda dancing with the chiller devil atm, but to do it the way I would want to will cost me far more than just a heat exchanger, so I expect I will be nochilling (perhaps with the enhancement of a water bath) for some time to come. (Ditto proper kegging which probably won't happen until next house.)



Keep in mind that there are many any experienced brewer that has given away their immersion or counter flow chiller for a polyethylene drum.

You'll be happy what every your decision.

regards,
Scott


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## Thirsty Boy (14/1/08)

I was chilling with an IMC but had been pretty unhappy with the amount of water used...oh I saved it to clean the brewery and water plants, but there was still a lot going down the drain.

Happily I won a Mashmaster plate chiller as part of the whole Mash Paddle award dealy. Only used it once before Christmas... chilled down 38L with less water than I used to use for 20. Very happy.

Next brew the old IMC will be going into a brine bath as a pre-chiller and hopefully I will be able to cut that water usage in half again as well as chilling to or closer to lager temperatures


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## newguy (14/1/08)

I've used 4 methods.
1) Kettle in bathtub full of cold water. Only works well if you have a jacuzzi to stir the water. Wastes a lot of water.
2) Kettle in snowbank. Takes forever, or seems to, when your hands are freezing.
3) Immersion chiller. Wort must be stirred to maximize the heat loss. Wastes a ton of water.
4) Counterflow chiller. What I presently use and prefer. Wastes the least water, and is very fast. I chill 10 gallons in about 20-25 minutes. In winter I can chill my wort to about 6-7C with the tap water going full out. In summer with the flow going full out the wort gets chilled to about 22-23C at best.

No chill is not something that I ever would have considered before reading all of the positive things about it here. I may try it this year sometime just to be able to say that I did.


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## Back Yard Brewer (14/1/08)

Kleiny said:


> (im still considering no chill as well)
> have fun :beer:




Here goes debate again.Peronally I won't risk the no chill option.The chance of infection whilst you are waiting for the wort to cool to pitching temp is risky. I use one of these My Chiller Bought one from this chap a year ago, second hand. With freight still cost me $190 ($80 for freight).Get it down (temp) get it in (yeast)

BYB


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## crozdog (14/1/08)

Question to all of you you use a prechiller (in either brine or ice): Why do use a prechiller ie on the input? 

To my way of thinking it would be more efficient on the output where the wort temp has already dropped considerably. I know there is a greater temp difference if it is used on the input, but surely that would quickly diminish due to the ice melting as the heat is extracted from the hot wort. If used on the output wouldn't there be a greater "body" of cold to drop the warmish (20 - 30 deg) even lower?

Has any one tried both methods (ie pre or post) or wants to comment re why you to use a prechiller instead of a postchiller? 

thanks,

crozdog


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## shawnheiderich (14/1/08)

I use a combo of immersion until I get to about 40c then wack it in the fermenting fridge until I pitch usually only 2 to 4 hours. It works ok for me probably not the best solution but it is ok for now.

Shawn


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## justsomeguy (14/1/08)

Malty Cultural said:


> Has anyone tried Mr Malty's immersion chiller plus vortex technique? See it here: http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php
> 
> Link
> 
> ...


It works very well in knocking the initial heat out of the wort. I'm certainly not in knee-deep snow and find it works pretty well. 

I have the following setup. March pump handling the recirculation. 18 metres of 3/8th inch copper chiller wound into double coil. A 60 litre rubbish bin containing water from the washing machine and a small submursable pump. Around ten minutes before flameout I start the whirlpool, then at flameout the submursible pump gets turned on as well. The first lot of water out of the chiller is very near boiling so gets put into a bucket to cool and go on the garden later. Once the chiller water has cooled a little more I feed it back into the bin to keep the temp coming down.

I've found that I go from boiling to around 80c in around 30 seconds and to 60 in around 4 minutes using water at around 25c. It takes around 15 minutes to get to 30c. I normally stop at that point and transfer to a fermenter and the fermenting fridge to bring it down to pitching temperature.

By using the water from the washing machine I can reuse the water several times over. As an example, I used the bin of water from the washing machine and pump to control a 'condensor'  I was running on the weekend. Now that water is sitting ready to use on the next brew day. After that I think it will go onto the lawns. So using the same water three times over is a pretty reasonable effort I think.

gary.


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## Screwtop (14/1/08)

crozdog said:


> Question to all of you you use a prechiller (in either brine or ice): Why do use a prechiller ie on the input?
> 
> To my way of thinking it would be more efficient on the output where the wort temp has already dropped considerably. I know there is a greater temp difference if it is used on the input, but surely that would quickly diminish due to the ice melting as the heat is extracted from the hot wort. If used on the output wouldn't there be a greater "body" of cold to drop the warmish (20 - 30 deg) even lower?
> 
> ...




The pre-chiller is not in the wort line, it's used to chill the water from the tap going into the chiller (plate/cfc etc) for higher efficiency/less water/lower temp.

Screwy


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## TasChris (14/1/08)

Hi all,
I use a immersion chiller with the waste water going back into the rain water tank.
With my annual rainfall water use is not an issue.
Chris


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## drsmurto (14/1/08)

Plate chiller - as others have said, recycle your water and the debate on its usage becomes a moot point. Not to mention the use of rain water returned back to a holding tank. With summer here i will be considering passing the hose thru an ice bath first to cool the wort down beyond the current 25C. If i can be arsed.


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## SJW (14/1/08)

I used to immersion chill years ago prior to the No Chill revalation. Then I no chilled the past 20 or so AG's but lately I have been going back to the immersion, but only down to 30 or 40 deg C then transfer into the fermenter without airating and sticking in the fermentation fridge o/night and airstone in the morning and pitch. This method seems to be working good. I love no chill but there is just something about that does not sit right with me.

Steve


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## phonos (14/1/08)

I chose "other", although I guess I could have also used "ice bath", as I simply dunk my kettle (with the lid on) on the step of my pool. It cools down to about 30degrees in an hour in summer. I then syphon the wort out which means there are no problems with sanitising a tap.


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## enoch (14/1/08)

Malty Cultural said:


> Has anyone tried Mr Malty's immersion chiller plus vortex technique? See it here: http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php
> Link It sounds very efficient but I'm wondering if all the testimonials are coming from brewers knee-deep in snow.



I have done a few brews like this recently. 
1st couple I used a counterflow chiller with tap water then recirced ice water for a lager.
Saturday rejigged an old 18m immersion chiller and used tap water to about 30 then ice water to get down easily to 14C for a hefe.
Immersion was more water efficient but the whirlpool was much better with the CFWC. Ended up with a lot of trub going into the fermenter this time. On balance prefer the immersion as it was faster, more water efficient and has one less hard to clean bit of gear.

In both cases used 10-15kg of ice which had been frozen in ice cream containers and cracked into an esky for a 50L brew Ice was no where near gone by the end.

Recirc pump is then used to pump the cooling water out onto the garden.


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## Jerry (14/1/08)

Immersion chiller.

I can get the wort down to mid 30's in anything from 30 to 60 mins depending on the season and how much I stir. Water used is generally around 40-50 ltrs which is used to wash dishes and brewing equipment.

The fermenter is then taken downstairs (temp fluctuates from around 12c in winter to a max of 23c in summer) and sits on a concrete floor until pitching temp is reached. This usually takes around 6 hrs but occasionally its left overnight.

Scott


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## SpillsMostOfIt (14/1/08)

The last few posts have refreshed a question I've been unable to find a satisfactory answer to on the subject of chilling. Apologies if the topic detour fusses you.

Thinking about what happens to the 'stuff' we extract from hops when we boil that gives us flavour, aroma and bitterness, and considering that the longer this 'stuff' is in the boil, the more the 'slider' goes from aroma, through flavour to bitterness, at what temperature does this stop happening?

Ignoring the formation of DMS and bugs that might kill me, if one of the reasons we like to chill quickly is to preserve the 'hop character' as it comes off the boil, perhaps I only need to chill the wort *quickly* to X degrees, then the rest of the cooling can happen at a slower pace?


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## lagers44 (14/1/08)

Hey guys

I use an immersion chiller & always have. In summer temp drops below 30c in 1hr & winter around 45min.
Wort comes out crystal clear.
A Cheap one was built from soft copper coil from Bunnings $50 roll & makes up 2 chillers , you just need to braise on the tap adapter. 
Best investment made...( you know what I mean )


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## tangent (14/1/08)

i just did a german pils (with about 150gms of 2.2 saaz plugs - jebus that boil smelled good!)
immersion chiller for 50L (2x 25L cubes)
then the fermenter goes into a fridge set at about 10C.
The next morning the fridge is readjusted to the temp I want and truck loads of yeast is pitched.
Works well so far.


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## LethalCorpse (16/1/08)

crozdog said:


> Question to all of you you use a prechiller (in either brine or ice): Why do use a prechiller ie on the input?
> 
> To my way of thinking it would be more efficient on the output where the wort temp has already dropped considerably. I know there is a greater temp difference if it is used on the input, but surely that would quickly diminish due to the ice melting as the heat is extracted from the hot wort. If used on the output wouldn't there be a greater "body" of cold to drop the warmish (20 - 30 deg) even lower?
> 
> ...


dT/dt = k(T2-T1)

Or, to put it another way, the rate of change of temperature is proportional to the difference between the two temperatures. Therefore, the greater the temp difference, the quicker the beer cools down. 

Moreover, a huge amount of energy is absorbed in melting the ice - you _want_ it to melt. The quicker the ice melts, the quicker your beer cools. You want the wrt to come into contact with as cold a temperature as possible, stepping it down will just make it take longer.


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## crozdog (16/1/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> dT/dt = k(T2-T1)
> 
> Or, to put it another way, the rate of change of temperature is proportional to the difference between the two temperatures. Therefore, the greater the temp difference, the quicker the beer cools down.
> 
> Moreover, a huge amount of energy is absorbed in melting the ice - you _want_ it to melt. The quicker the ice melts, the quicker your beer cools. You want the wrt to come into contact with as cold a temperature as possible, stepping it down will just make it take longer.



Thanks LC


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## Simon W (16/1/08)

No preference really, but using immersion.

I use tap water and re-adjust for the lowest flow that has a chiller output slightly cooler than the wort temp, just to conserve water.
When the wort temp is a few degree's above ambient, I have a bucket filled with bottles of ice and run the chiller outlet water over the bottles. When the bucket is full I then turn off the tap, connect the cooler inlet to a small pump immersed in the ice-bucket and recirculate the ice-water through the chiller to get the wort below ambient temps.


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## RobW (16/1/08)

Counterflow chiller to drop the temp to about 28 then into the fridge.


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## devo (26/2/08)

After using the no chill method for the last couple of years I finally got my water tank system set up and dragged out my immersion chiller so I can "yes" chill again.


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## mje1980 (26/2/08)

Used an immersion chiller for a few years, pain in the arse. Tried no chill, never looked back, no problems whatsoever. Hope i don't get in trouble.


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## mikem108 (26/2/08)

Going to force iced water through a plate chiller and recirculate it with a pond pump, put the counter flow chiller out to pasture.


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## JasonY (26/2/08)

Have Immersion Chilled, No Chilled (couple of batches) and CFWC, now I just CFWC.

Water is so cold over here that I had it at lager pitching temps straight from the chiller last weekend


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## Hutch (26/2/08)

I had another crack at chilling over the weekend. 
I used both a CFC (6m coil of 3/8" copper) and an immersion coil (10m coil of 1/2" copper) in series - the CFC to get the wort down to about 30deg, then the coil as a post-chiller immersed in a 10kg ice bath. 
I pushed 20Ltrs of wort through this with a march-pump in about 6 minutes, and it was 15degrees into the fermenter!!! :beerbang: 
(Before I went no-chill, I used to gravity-feed through the CFC, which took forever and a day).

...oh, and this used about 40Ltrs of tap water, which I collected in a rubbish bin, cooled overnight to be pumped onto the garden on watering day.

So, in short, a pump has made a HUGE impact on the speed of wort chilling, to the point where I think I've only added about 15 minutes extra to brew-day, and I'm pitching straight away.

Very happy I didn't get rid of all that excess copper (sorry Braufrau!).
Hutch.


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/2/08)

mje1980 said:


> Used an immersion chiller for a few years, pain in the arse. Tried no chill, never looked back, no problems whatsoever. Hope i don't get in trouble.




Oh...you will get into trouble......the aliens will come down and steal your no-chill beer and rape your garbage bin. This is why No-Chill brewers never brew near grassy knolls.... :lol:


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## BoilerBoy (26/2/08)

My poor mans chiller gets the wort down to 18C with ice, even lower if I slow the flow right down from the kettle.

Just a coil of copper in a storage tub and stir the ice,takes about 15-20 min all water collected and then drained off for the garden.

Cheers
BB


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## drsmurto (26/2/08)

mje1980 said:


> Used an immersion chiller for a few years, pain in the arse. Tried no chill, never looked back, no problems whatsoever. Hope i don't get in trouble.



Um. Perhaps you should be using it to chill wort down?  

Low 20s on the weekend so my plate chiller got the wort down to 25C, single pass on full speed!


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## The Mick (27/2/08)

My name is Mick,I am a nochill-aholic,more out of laziness though ,have had problems with late hop additions being more bitter than aromatic.I also had my garbage bin raped and beaten


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## Pumpy (27/2/08)

No Chill for me as I mash in 40 litre batches and it allows me to split into two 20 litre batches and 'ferment at will' with different types of yeast .

Too simple more flexibility and the clearest wort you will ever see ( although I just dump it all in the fermenter )

How many copper miners in South America we may save in the process,?? that just makes me feel good !!

Pumpy


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## warrenlw63 (27/2/08)

Pumpy said:


> How many copper miners in South America we may save in the process,?? that just makes me feel good !!



:lol: Group Hug.

Warren -


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## vicelore (27/2/08)

Can you guys no chill in cubes. then just pitch straight into the same cube. so boil, chill over night , open the lid pitch and put the cube back into the fementer ??? i know you would need to change the lid to one with a airlock in it ???

just curious as i was about to buy a immersion but if i can do this it would be allot easier/cheaper..

Cheers


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## NRB (28/2/08)

There wouldn't be enough headspace vicelore, cubes are filled right to the top and have no air in them when done properly. If you're simply letting it cool down to be pitched the following day, then it should be fine, provided you're filling into your fermenter. If you're talking about wort you intend on keeping for a while (like FWK's), then the answer is no.


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## domonsura (28/2/08)

Pumpy said:


> How many copper miners in South America we may save in the process,?? that just makes me feel good !!
> 
> Pumpy



None Pumpy.....they'll be mining it regardless of if we buy it or not..... (Yes, I'm a cynic, and anyway.......my plate chiller uses very little copper.......)


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## Cortez The Killer (28/2/08)

I've only ever no-chilled and can't see the attraction to other methods

But at the end of the day it's personal choice

No-chilling does have its perks though
- minimal outlay
- minimal time required
- minimal water required (ie sanitisation only)
- storability of the wort for extended periods
- ability to make wort in bulk for later fermentation
- portability of wort in the cube

and I suppose I could come up with some more if I thought about it

Most of the IBU's have taken to no-chilling their beers - without reported ill affects

With regard to the diminished hop presence in aroma / flavour - I've taken to putting my final hop addition into the cube before filling (though I can't say that my beers appear to be lacking in flavour - nor have other no-chill beers I've tried)

I believe that with minimal adjustment to the hop schedule it is possible to more than compensate for any loss from not immediately chilling

Cheers

Edit: It is interesting to see that a little under ~36% no-chill and I'd imagine with time further brewers will be heading down this path - as AG brewing gains popularity


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## kevnlis (28/2/08)

Does anyone know what temp hops stop isomerising? Is there a scale of how much bitterness is added at a certain temp? Say you ice bath chilled your wort right down to 70C before you ptu it in the no chill cube would that be enough to stop the hops from continuing to add bitterness and losing the flavour components?


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## bonj (29/2/08)

I would think that dropping the wort to 70 would have adverse affects on the worts ability to resist contamination.


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## troydo (29/2/08)

you should be cubing your wort as hot as possible! it helps to paturise the small amount of air and the plastic as i understand it anyway! 

then again i always pitch within 2 days


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## Julez (29/2/08)

I "no chill" myself, although I'm not sure how good my method is....only up to AG #2 at this stage, so the first one I put straight from the kettle into my fermenter and cooled it down overnight in the beer fridge. Obviously there is a fair amount of head space compared to none in a cube. My first brew tastes great after two weeks in bottles, so I hope that's indicative of a successful "no chill"!? Anything I should be worried about doing it this way? Any tips gladly received. 

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Julez (1/3/08)

Julez said:


> I "no chill" myself, although I'm not sure how good my method is....only up to AG #2 at this stage, so the first one I put straight from the kettle into my fermenter and cooled it down overnight in the beer fridge. Obviously there is a fair amount of head space compared to none in a cube. My first brew tastes great after two weeks in bottles, so I hope that's indicative of a successful "no chill"!? Anything I should be worried about doing it this way? Any tips gladly received.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:



Answering my own question here after my brew day today - I definitely won't put fermenter with hot wort in the fridge to chill next time. It works fine in terms of the chilling (takes about 6 hrs), but because the wort temp inside the fermenter is warm/hot and the fridge air is cold, it causes the air lock to suck water backwards into the fermenter. So I'm going to need that cube for my next no chill after all. Also should make life easier for when it comes time to transfer from cube to fermenter, so wort is at a suitable temp and I can aerate like a maniac :beerbang: . 

Where can I get myself a cube in Brisbane area? Do HB shops sell them? 

Cheers, Julez.


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## NickB (1/3/08)

I got my cubes from a camping shop, but the jerry style plastic cubes I use for NC just came from BigW or Kmart. The 20L (which actually holds around 24L) goes for around the $20 - 25 mark....


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## Julez (2/3/08)

NickB said:


> I got my cubes from a camping shop, but the jerry style plastic cubes I use for NC just came from BigW or Kmart. The 20L (which actually holds around 24L) goes for around the $20 - 25 mark....



Ah bewdy, thanks for that


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## troywhite (2/3/08)

No chill for me.

18 brews with no problems.

I just can't bring myself to waste water. If the water levels ever return to their "non restricted" levels then I'd consider it.
(or if I ever get a water tank I suppose)


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## SpillsMostOfIt (2/3/08)

I've long considered that chilling with water straight from the tap is an excess I wanted to avoid, so I NoChill'd. I'm currently exploring the differences between the beer when chill'd and NoChill'd (which I am doing with a metric shedload of ice I make in the freezer).

People have spoken about how they have dedicated chilling water or a pool or a high altitude lake. Lucky bastards.

Consider that you can use the water in some other way after you have chilled with it. Consider (for the sake of this argument) that you might use 100 litres of water for a 23 litre batch. The exact numbers are irrelevant, though.

If you brew twice a week, you're using a lot of water. If you brew twice a year, in the context of your total water usage it becomes background noise.

So, I think you need to factor in how often/much you brew as well as all the other factors.


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## Back Yard Brewer (2/3/08)

troywhite said:


> No chill for me.
> 
> 18 brews with no problems.
> 
> ...




I am still getting my head around this "no chill" method. How about giving me your details in step form. Do you put the wort straight from kettle into fermenter,do you let it cool then transfer to fermenter for cooling e.t.c The reason I ask is that in the past 6 AG's that I have made two have taken on a funky or infected taste.This has only happened and I say only, when my yeast has taken around 24hrs or more to kick in.I have been using a CFC for all my AG's. Nowadays I make sure I have rehydrated my dry yeast before pitching or made a starter from a fresh Wyeast. My cleaning techniques have not changed during the last 6 AG's. I have also made the same style beer with the same malt bill and hop.Yes I am an APA fanatic.

BYB


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## gibbocore (14/4/09)

Hi guys, rather than start a new thread, i was having a search and wanted to know if anyone does a recirculating chill? 

i was thinking of installing a copper coil inside my kettle that would recirculate a closed circuit of water pumped from the bottom of an esky housing around 8 frozen 2l water bottles through the coil and back out over the top of the ice bank using an old washing machine pump or something.

I gather my main obstacles will be keeping the ice frozen or keeping the water in the esky at a usable temp for long enough. I just want a push button solution for my herms.


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## razz (14/4/09)

I'm using the Mr.Malty method Gibbocore. Although he uses a CFC I use a plate chiller. What are you using at the moment?


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## gibbocore (14/4/09)

i'm currently using an immersion chiller. It uses a disgusting amount of water.


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## chappo1970 (14/4/09)

Gibbo,
I've been toying with this idea for a while now. I have a mash master plate chiller which works great in pulling the wort straight from the kettle, say 80C or so, to 27C (tap water temp in Brissy) in about 15mins. My problem is pulling that extra 10 to 17C for pitching, which BTW takes about 4-5hrs in the fridge set at 4C.

Originally I hooked up a pond pump with the plate chiller and used a 60lt garbage bin to act as an ice bin. I recirculated thru the plate chiller returning the HE water to the bin. 6 bags of ice later I ended up with wort at 24C, I had gained 3C :lol: . So I guess that yes it's difficult to keep the HE water at an usable temp.

My next experiment will be to have the tap water running thru 20m of copper coil (ex immersion chiller) in the same manner but not recirculating, just tap water running thru the iced water coil to the chiller plate and the HE water going to the garden as normal.

Sorry probably hasn't helped your quest.


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## razz (14/4/09)

If you can recirc the wort through a pump and back into the kettle whilst using the immersion chiller you will cool much faster and use less water.


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## gibbocore (14/4/09)

i have a water agitator for the HLT that i could easily place into the kettle to create a gentle whirlpool? This might work.


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## razz (14/4/09)

As long as you are moving the wort against the coil it will be more efficient than your current setup. If you go down the ice bath path it usually helps to use water only to remove alot of heat first and then use the ice to get to the temp down to pitching temp.


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## daemon (14/4/09)

I no-chill, it's easy to do and I've never had a problem. As I'm not a heavy drinker, it means I can make a few batches at once (when I have time and all the gear out) then just grab a cube to ferment when required. It means I basically have a few fresh wort kits on-hand and made to my specifications


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## rich_lamb (14/4/09)

I used to immersion-chill; but got rapidly sick of the extra hassle, time, water, etc so I moved to no-chill about half a dozen brews ago. 
My beer quality took a hit as a result: less clarity, bitterness and hop flavour all over the place, astringency. I must be careful not to automatically ascribe all this to no-chill as I have changed a few other items and rarely brew the same recipe back to back.

I've worked on fixing most of these problems by doing the following:
1) Filtering out the trub and hops before the cube, which corrects most of the over-hopping
2) "Quasi-chilling". After the cube has had about 10 min on each side to pasteurise, I sit it in a tub of cool water to chill it more rapidly. I saw a graph of isomerisation vs temperature somewhere recently that suggested an inverse-log effect, such that isomerisation is almost negligable under about 80 degrees...

So I'll keep brewing and gathering results, though the impression I have is that chilling gives more control over the flavour and quality. When I get my big water tank and pump I will probably go back to chilling. Though my laziness may have increased by then.  

For me, no-chill has more benefits than drawbacks at the moment. I can get a brew done after work, and I don't need my yeast ready to brew. Gotta love that.


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## manticle (14/4/09)

At the moment I put in a laundry tub of iced water then whack in the fridge. Takes several hours and it's usually very late in the night/morning.

I tried boiling and cooling some extra water (7 L) for my last brew but probably had the idea too late so it was not as cool as I'd have liked. Some of it went on the pumpkins.

Water wastage for immersion chilling (I assume that's what the jargon means??) is minimal as I scoop most of it out into a bucket and water the vege garden.

No chill sounds tempting.


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## fcmcg (15/4/09)

I built a thing that uses a small big bin , a $60 AL#I garden pump and a few lenths of hose...all conected to my immersion chiller.The bins 3/4 full with water that i collected from ice.I occasionaly treat the water with iodopher. On brew day ,i start up the pump ,I add a frozen 15L cube of water and after about 15-20 mins i add a bag of ice. I add another bag of ice if needed. This thing can cool down a wort to 23 degrees in about 30-40 mins depending on ambient temp.The system is a wee ripper and it doesn't waste water ! I did do one brew of an Xmas extract beer that i no chilled once...the cube STILL smells like plum pud ! lol... i decided this was the way to go !


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## the_yobbo (25/6/10)

fergthebrewer said:


> I built a thing that uses a small big bin , a $60 AL#I garden pump and a few lenths of hose...all conected to my immersion chiller.The bins 3/4 full with water that i collected from ice.I occasionaly treat the water with iodopher. On brew day ,i start up the pump ,I add a frozen 15L cube of water and after about 15-20 mins i add a bag of ice. I add another bag of ice if needed. This thing can cool down a wort to 23 degrees in about 30-40 mins depending on ambient temp.The system is a wee ripper and it doesn't waste water ! I did do one brew of an Xmas extract beer that i no chilled once...the cube STILL smells like plum pud ! lol... i decided this was the way to go !



Impressive

Ok, it seems that there is a depth of brewing that I'm not familar with. I've only just done my first extract brew using a 10L boil. Once complete I placed the brew pot in the laundry sink which was half full of cold water. Left it there for about 5 minute before straining the contents into the fermenter and topping up with cold water to 22L. 
Is there a reason for cooling the brew quickly other than getting to pitching temps quickly?


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## felten (25/6/10)

locking in the flavour/aroma from the hops


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## manticle (25/6/10)

According to the literature I've read:

-With full mash brewing rapid chilling can help form better cold break (certain proteins that precipitate and drop out - they can affect stability and cause haze in the finished product). 

-Additionally DMS can continue to form while the wort is hot depending on the amount of precursor within the wort. If this is not evaporated then it will condense back into the wort

-While wort is boiling hot and while it's actively fermenting it is generally resistant to microbial attack. However like any foodstuff, bacteria can grow within certain temperature ranges and create problems in the finished beer. Thus the least amount of time it spends at those ranges the better.

As a final note, wort should be under a certain temp before it is agitated (may be as low as 30 degrees C but I'd need to check my facts) or it is in danger of causing HSA (hot side aeration).

Again - understanding from literature rather than me stating dogmatic fact : no-chill seems to circumvent most of these problems.

I guess the other thing is just not wanting to wait around all night so you can pitch and go do something else.


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## the_yobbo (25/6/10)

manticle said:


> According to the literature I've read:
> 
> -With full mash brewing rapid chilling can help form better cold break (certain proteins that precipitate and drop out - they can affect stability and cause haze in the finished product).
> 
> ...




Hmm, oops.
Pouring the wort from the pot to fermenter through a strainer is possibly the worst thing I could do I imagine in regards to HSA. I had 10L and after topping up to 23L with cold water it was still around 36 degrees, so the wort was probably a good 50+ degrees when strained.

A quick google search to find out what HSA is/does. Is the only effect going to be possible chill haze therefore no effect on beer flavour/taste/body/fementation?


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## manticle (25/6/10)

HSA has nothing to do with chill haze. Chill haze is formed by certain proteins (associated with cold break) forming hazing compounds. These don't affect beer flavour but there is some suggestion they may impact stability.

Hot side aeration is caused by agitation of the wort when it is above certain temperatures and can lead to staling and oxidative flavours. There is debate as to whether it is worth worrying about on a homebrew scale - myself I prefer to take steps to avoid it because it's easy enough to do so.

There will be more technical rundowns somewhere. Start wit Palmer's HTB - I think he covers them both.


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## The Mad Hopper (25/6/10)

HSA can be a problem for the homebrewer, but you really do need to be a doofus to make it happen. When doing my first AG, I tried to pour a post boil batch of wort into the chilling cube. Aside from the fact that I almost gave myself third degree burns and most of the wort ended up on the ground, the splashing through the funnel into the cube caused the beer to really taste like crap. 

After that I just drilled a hole into the side of the pot, whacked in a tap and now transfer to the cube using silicone tubing. Never had that problem again.


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## the_yobbo (25/6/10)

Ok, so how do people doing the no-chill method avoid/minimise HSA risk since we're talking about a wort that is jolly hot. 
SWMBO wouldn't be too pleased if I put a tap on the side our biggest cooking pot, so I'll count that one out for now thanks Hopper.
Obviously syphoning into a cube to be sealed and cooled naturally over time seems obvious but syphoning boiling wort does sound a bit tricky.
Can you add ice cubes (made from good water source) directly to the wort to cool it down, then perhaps I add cold water to get it up near the 20L mark. By then the temp should be well down?


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## matho (25/6/10)

i made a counter flow chiller from parts from the big hardware store for about $60
6m of 12.7mm copper tubing
6m of 20mm pvc tubing
2* 15mm to 15mm to 18mm adaptor
hose clamps 

it cools 24l in about 15 to 20 min, its easy to clean and doesn't get blocked.
i think it gives alot better hop flavour and aroma than when i no chill.
here are some pics




a close up of the 15mm to 15mm to 18mm adaptor




Edit: I forgot to mention it cools to 5 deg of tap temp

cheer's matho


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## felten (25/6/10)

I use a SS racking cane +2m of silicone tubing, starting the siphon with sanitiser, and leaving the tube in the bottom of the cube to minimise splashing.

Oh and gloves.

I find it difficult to do solo however, racking clips are completely useless


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## QldKev (25/6/10)

fergthebrewer said:


> I built a thing that uses a small big bin , a $60 AL#I garden pump and a few lenths of hose...all conected to my immersion chiller.The bins 3/4 full with water that i collected from ice.I occasionaly treat the water with iodopher. On brew day ,i start up the pump ,I add a frozen 15L cube of water and after about 15-20 mins i add a bag of ice. I add another bag of ice if needed. This thing can cool down a wort to 23 degrees in about 30-40 mins depending on ambient temp.The system is a wee ripper and it doesn't waste water ! I did do one brew of an Xmas extract beer that i no chilled once...the cube STILL smells like plum pud ! lol... i decided this was the way to go !




ok, am I missing something here? Rather than use some extra water that you could use on your garden or recycle into a tank you use electricity to chill at least 20L of ice which is most probably from a carbon burning station? 

I think I'll stay with no-chill




QldKev


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## Greg Lawrence (25/6/10)

QldKev said:


> ok, am I missing something here? Rather than use some extra water that you could use on your garden or recycle into a tank you use electricity to chill at least 20L of ice which is most probably from a carbon burning station?
> 
> I think I'll stay with no-chill
> 
> ...




the carbon produced by chilling is hardly even a piss the ocean compared to one of these


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## QldKev (25/6/10)

Gregor said:


> the carbon produced by chilling is hardly even a piss the ocean compared to one of these
> View attachment 38993




but every bit helps... 
and yes I do drive a GENIII Commodore

QldKev


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## manticle (25/6/10)

The Muzz said:


> Ok, so how do people doing the no-chill method avoid/minimise HSA risk since we're talking about a wort that is jolly hot.
> SWMBO wouldn't be too pleased if I put a tap on the side our biggest cooking pot, so I'll count that one out for now thanks Hopper.
> Obviously syphoning into a cube to be sealed and cooled naturally over time seems obvious but syphoning boiling wort does sound a bit tricky.
> Can you add ice cubes (made from good water source) directly to the wort to cool it down, then perhaps I add cold water to get it up near the 20L mark. By then the temp should be well down?



The only way is to buy another pot and plumb it or try siphoning hot wort. You could use an auto siphon type thingy to do it - not sure about their heat ratings though. The one I have doesn't look like it would withstand super hot.

I guess you could ladle it gently out but it would take forever, be painful and couldn't be done into a cube (only a fermenter and then - what's the point? Chill it).

If adding ice cubes, you should probably make your own in clean sanitised containers using boiled water and make sure they are well sealed.

Are we talking full volume boils ? (because obviously you need to take into account the extra volume of the ice)


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## the_yobbo (28/6/10)

manticle said:


> The only way is to buy another pot and plumb it or try siphoning hot wort. You could use an auto siphon type thingy to do it - not sure about their heat ratings though. The one I have doesn't look like it would withstand super hot.
> 
> I guess you could ladle it gently out but it would take forever, be painful and couldn't be done into a cube (only a fermenter and then - what's the point? Chill it).
> 
> ...



I feel I should be starting another thread but I'm pushing on here...

No, I've only been doing 10L boils at this stage. 

I've read a little on the 'no chill' method and they all point to raking the wort into a cube, sealing with very little head space to minimise oxidation and the like I assume. Is this necessary?
As it's only a 10L brew, can simply raking into the fermenter (with other fermentables), topping up with cold water to volume then waiting for the brew to cool naturally to pitching temps?


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## Bribie G (28/6/10)

The majority of AG brewers do not top up with cold water, so I assume you are brewing over gravity then diluting to 'normal' strength. That being the case you would be better off putting your wee 10L into a laundry sink with some cold water, getting it most of the way, then topping it up and pop into fridge for a couple of hours to get to pitching temperature.


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## manticle (28/6/10)

The Muzz said:


> I feel I should be starting another thread but I'm pushing on here...
> 
> No, I've only been doing 10L boils at this stage.
> 
> I've read a little on the 'no chill' method and they all point to raking the wort into a cube, sealing with very little head space to minimise oxidation and the like I assume. Is this necessary?



It's the only reason no -chill works



> As it's only a 10L brew, can simply raking into the fermenter (with other fermentables), topping up with cold water to volume then waiting for the brew to cool naturally to pitching temps?



10 Litres, 20 litres - makes little difference. Yes you could rack into a fermenter, top up with cool water and wait. 

However

1. This has nothing to do with no chill. No chill is useful because you can ferment 1 day later, 6 days later, 6+ months later if done properly. That's half the appeal of the method.
2. You would be pouring some hot wort unless you have a tap and hose or a siphon. Depends on how worried you are about Hot side aeration.
3. Your brew would sit for some time before yeast pitching. The wort is vulnerable to infection between certain temp ranges especially when there is no yeast to fight off the competitors so brewers generally try and minimise that time and they do that by chilling quickly (or by no chilling). Slow chilling is the most vulnerable.

However depending on the circumstances, it may work fine - just be aware that by doing so you are increasing your risk of infection. Can be done and can be done successfully - there's just potential for things to go pear shaped.

As I said - if you do want the benefits of no-chill for an extract brew, either buy a smaller cube or top up with boiling water into the cube (still best siphoning or going through a hose though so you need a hose that copes with heat and best not to siphon boiling stuff with your mouth).


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## grantsglutenfreehomebrew (28/6/10)

If anyone is interested, the method I use is to make ice cylinders out of boiled water. I sterilise a jug with amount indicators on the side and fill to one litre with boiled water. I place it straight into the freezer. The steam coming off it stops any bacteria or nasties getting in. Hot water freezes quicker than room temp water (I heard somewhere). I freeze the water and do this until I have 3 of them. I place these in the bottom of my fermenting barrel when I am pouring my wort in (approx. 8 litres taken off boil and let rest for 10 minutes) then add the rest of my water (tap) to make anywhere between 20 and 23 litres. This cools the wort to approx 24 degrees give or take a few. I can then pitch the hydrated yeast immediately.
It's cheap and nasty but it works well. I hope this is of some help.
Grant


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