# A Fast 34/70 Lager Is A .....



## Bada Bing Brewery (8/11/12)

I put down a double batch pils on weekend - Wey pils, munich, carapils and a bit of melanoiden. Stepped mashed as normal. No chilled and did 2 seperate starters for each cube using 34/70 (didnt have any danish lager). Rehydrated yeasties and gave them 6 hrs on the stir plate - both went crazy. Chilled the starters to 11C and pitched into wort also at 11C.
OG was 1048. In three days it's down to 1022 - is it me or is that just nuts for a lager??????? Temp is spot on, nothing out of the ordinary happened. Taste is as expected for time of ferment - nothing nasty.
Has anybody else had 34/70 going off it's tits like this???
Cheers
BBB


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## stakka82 (8/11/12)

I do lagers almost exclusively with 34/70 and find they are close to final gravity after 4-5 days almost every time whether pitching dry, rehydrating, pitching warm or pitching cold. 

If pitched cold on a yeast cake I find it can be close to fg after as little as 3 days.


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## yum beer (8/11/12)

Not at all surprising, my lagers with 34/70 usualy finish in 7-10 days, even at 9c.


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## wessmith (8/11/12)

This is absolutely spot on. Any longer, you need to start looking at yeast health issues.

Wes


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## Bada Bing Brewery (8/11/12)

Thanks men. This is my cherry popping 34/70 experience and I feel all warm now. 
I take it though that a d-rest is on the cards ?? Should I start bumping up the temp 1C over the next few days to 15 or 16C??
Thanks again
BBB


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## labels (8/11/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Thanks men. This is my cherry popping 34/70 experience and I feel all warm now.
> I take it though that a d-rest is on the cards ?? Should I start bumping up the temp 1C over the next few days to 15 or 16C??
> Thanks again
> BBB



Nah, just whack the temperature up to 18C quickly before terminal gravity and let it finish, about four days should do it.

Then quickly back to about 10C and then 1C drop per day, hold at 2-3C for a few days, drop to minus 2C for three days and you're done, 

Steve.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (8/11/12)

labels said:


> Nah, just whack the temperature up to 18C quickly before terminal gravity and let it finish, about four days should do it.
> 
> Then quickly back to about 10C and then 1C drop per day, hold at 2-3C for a few days, drop to minus 2C for three days and you're done,
> 
> Steve.



Why the slow drop to 2-3C Steve? Interested to know why (closet yeast hugger )
I usually just d-rest and then drop to CC around 0 or -1 as quick as possible for however long with my other lagers ...
Cheers
BBB


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## labels (8/11/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Why the slow drop to 2-3C Steve? Interested to know why (closet yeast hugger )
> I usually just d-rest and then drop to CC around 0 or -1 as quick as possible for however long with my other lagers ...
> Cheers
> BBB


 
Okay there is a bit of controversy using this method. It is not new and is used commercially. The principal behind this is, if you crash chill you put the yeast to sleep straight away - in other words they become inactive very quickly. Chilling slowly allows yeast to become aclimatised to the lower temperatures and still remain active, albeit somewhat less than at the higher temperatures.

That's the first part. The second reasoning behind this is the yeast play a major role in cleaning up fermentation by-products after all the sugars have been exhausted. The one we all hear about all the time of course is diacetyl. There is also acetaldehyde and no doubt a bunch of others I have never heard of.

From my experience in making lagers over the last few years, slow chilling has a major impact on the 'clean' taste profile of a lager and also has an major impact on the 'smoothness', in other words clean, crisp but not bitey or acidic taste. Lager should clean, crisp but also smooth to the pallate.

I have tried almost all variations of lager fermentation, most at least twice and using this method absolutely trumps any other method from my experience. I do, and always will believe that the brewer makes the wort and the yeast make the beer and if you keep the yeast at their very optimum, they will produce the optimum beer.

Steve


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## jimi (8/11/12)

labels said:


> Okay there is a bit of controversy using this method. It is not new and is used commercially. The principal behind this is, if you crash chill you put the yeast to sleep straight away - in other words they become inactive very quickly. Chilling slowly allows yeast to become aclimatised to the lower temperatures and still remain active, albeit somewhat less than at the higher temperatures.
> 
> That's the first part. The second reasoning behind this is the yeast play a major role in cleaning up fermentation by-products after all the sugars have been exhausted. The one we all hear about all the time of course is diacetyl. There is also acetaldehyde and no doubt a bunch of others I have never heard of.
> 
> ...


I don't follow the logic of this, but will admit to not having tried the method either. Why would you slowly chill to reduce the activity slowly rather than allow more yeast to continue the conditioning which they should do more effectively and efficiently at the usual optimal yeast temp?
My method has always been to really lager a lager and not to rush it. I leave it at temp for at least a month even if terminal gravity is hit to clean up by-products. I taste frequently and when I feel it's no longer improving I crash chill.


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## Damien13 (8/11/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> I put down a double batch pils on weekend - Wey pils, munich, carapils and a bit of melanoiden. Stepped mashed as normal. No chilled and did 2 seperate starters for each cube using 34/70 (didnt have any danish lager). Rehydrated yeasties and gave them 6 hrs on the stir plate - both went crazy. Chilled the starters to 11C and pitched into wort also at 11C.
> OG was 1048. In three days it's down to 1022 - is it me or is that just nuts for a lager??????? Temp is spot on, nothing out of the ordinary happened. Taste is as expected for time of ferment - nothing nasty.
> Has anybody else had 34/70 going off it's tits like this???
> Cheers
> BBB




What size starter did you use?


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## Bada Bing Brewery (8/11/12)

Damien13 said:


> What size starter did you use?


I had about 1.5L for each cube.
cheers
BBB


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## NickB (8/11/12)

labels said:


> Okay there is a bit of controversy using this method. It is not new and is used commercially. The principal behind this is, if you crash chill you put the yeast to sleep straight away - in other words they become inactive very quickly. Chilling slowly allows yeast to become aclimatised to the lower temperatures and still remain active, albeit somewhat less than at the higher temperatures.
> 
> That's the first part. The second reasoning behind this is the yeast play a major role in cleaning up fermentation by-products after all the sugars have been exhausted. The one we all hear about all the time of course is diacetyl. There is also acetaldehyde and no doubt a bunch of others I have never heard of.
> 
> ...



Sorry man, I call BS.

If you're at terminal gravity, dropping temp over a few days will not make any difference over a straight crash chill. The yeast is finished, therefore any 'conditioning' should already be done - that's why we do a diacetyl rest....


Cheers


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## felten (9/11/12)

They cover lagering in the yeast book by White and Zainasheff, and a lot better than I could attempt to regurgitate myself.

Paraphrased slightly, it says "The reality is that very little happens once you take the yeast below 4c. If you want the yeast to be active and to carry on reduction of by-products, it happens much faster at higher temperatures.

Crashing the temperature or lowering it slowly makes little flavour difference if you are dropping it below 4c. However very rapid reduction in temperature (less than 6 hours) at the end of fermentation can cause the yeast to excrete more ester compounds instead of retaining them. 

If you plan to repitch the yeast you should avoid sudden temperature changes (up or down), as it can cause the yeast to express heat shock proteins."


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## jimi (9/11/12)

felten said:


> They cover lagering in the yeast book by White and Zainasheff, and a lot better than I could attempt to regurgitate myself.
> 
> Paraphrased slightly, it says "The reality is that very little happens once you take the yeast below 4c. If you want the yeast to be active and to carry on reduction of by-products, it happens much faster at higher temperatures.
> 
> ...



Nice addition thanks Felten


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## labels (9/11/12)

NickB said:


> Sorry man, I call BS.
> 
> If you're at terminal gravity, dropping temp over a few days will not make any difference over a straight crash chill. The yeast is finished, therefore any 'conditioning' should already be done - that's why we do a diacetyl rest....
> 
> ...



It's not bullshit Nick, terminal gravity doesn't mean the yeast is finished even after a diacetyl rest. By your reckoning, you should be removing the beer from the yeast immediately after the diacetyl rest because it has no further use - removal by racking, filtering or both for example.

By my reckoning, the yeast is still working down to low temperatures. Shocking the yeast by crash chilling stops the yeast working.

Yeast is not the only thing happening in lagering but it plays a major role down to about 3C. Once we go below that, it stops and floculates out. Around 0C proteins, polyphenols, hop polyphenols etc bind and fall out of solution and this is also important in lagering and beer stability/longevity.


However, this is home brewing, we can do whatever we like, there are no rules and no one forcing us to use any particular procedure. no rights, no wrongs.

Steve


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## DJR (9/11/12)

NickB said:


> Sorry man, I call BS.
> 
> If you're at terminal gravity, dropping temp over a few days will not make any difference over a straight crash chill. The yeast is finished, therefore any 'conditioning' should already be done - that's why we do a diacetyl rest....
> 
> ...



Yeast doesn't only metabolise sugar - you said it yourself - a D-rest cleans up the diacetyl and metabolises it to alpha-acetolactate which has a much higher flavour threshold and therefore the beer doesn't taste buttery anymore. There is other effects from the yeast after the sugar's all gone - e.g Felten's point that the esters are increased if the beer is crash chilled. I don't think yeast needs sugar to carry out its metabolism except for of course the pathway that produces alcohol (and glycerin) from sugar

Personally i reckon leaving the beer at D-rest temperatures for a few days longer than is necessary does some cleanup quicker then crash chilling to drop the yeast, polyphenols, proteins etc is the way to go, but of course whatever works for you and your equipment


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## DJR (9/11/12)

And a quote from White Labs Wyeast - http://www.wyeastlab.com/he_b_fermentation.cfm



> Conditioning
> 
> The conditioning stage takes place when the terminal gravity has been reached and the tank is cooled to refrigeration temperatures (31F - 38F, 0C - 3C). During this time the yeast continues to flocculate and settle. The yeast also conditions the beer by reducing various undesirable flavor compounds. Ales do not benefit from long conditioning times like lagers do. The desirable flavors in ales will decrease with age and therefore it is recommended that conditioning be as short as possible before packaging. Exposure to oxygen at this stage is extremely detrimental to beer quality.
> 
> ...


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## iralosavic (12/11/12)

Hmm I've just put down a 1.052 lager with 2x 34/70 and SG has not changed a point in 7 days. There's a fair layer on the top and a decent cake on the bottom. It was pitched at 12c and reduced to 10c over 2 days. I raised it back up to 12c and gave it a bit of a splash, but I have a feeling something more sinister is at play if everyone else is finding this yeast to be speedy!


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## labels (12/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> Hmm I've just put down a 1.052 lager with 2x 34/70 and SG has not changed a point in 7 days. There's a fair layer on the top and a decent cake on the bottom. It was pitched at 12c and reduced to 10c over 2 days. I raised it back up to 12c and gave it a bit of a splash, but I have a feeling something more sinister is at play if everyone else is finding this yeast to be speedy!


 
As they say (used to say) Relax, Don't Worry Have Another Homebrew.

My suggestion is NOT to intefere with it at this stage it is quite succeptable to infection. What is happening is the yeast is reproducing at this stage, once it gets to the optimum level it will start to metabolise the sugars a lot faster.

If you're new to lager strains, they work a lot slower than ale strains and are bottom fermenting meaning you're not going to get this massive kraussen with big brown yeasties on top

RDWHAHB

Steve


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## iralosavic (12/11/12)

labels said:


> As they say (used to say) Relax, Don't Worry Have Another Homebrew.
> 
> My suggestion is NOT to intefere with it at this stage it is quite succeptable to infection. What is happening is the yeast is reproducing at this stage, once it gets to the optimum level it will start to metabolise the sugars a lot faster.
> 
> ...



Relax, have another home brew haha That's a quote in a 30 year old brewing book my grandfather gave me.

I'm new to 34/70, however I've used s23 and s189 plenty of times and they've always at least done something after 72 hours - and I always use two packs (22g) so that I can pitch cold.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (12/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> Hmm I've just put down a 1.052 lager with 2x 34/70 and SG has not changed a point in 7 days. There's a fair layer on the top and a decent cake on the bottom. It was pitched at 12c and reduced to 10c over 2 days. I raised it back up to 12c and gave it a bit of a splash, but I have a feeling something more sinister is at play if everyone else is finding this yeast to be speedy!



Not to be a wanker but mine's finished and now going to CC . I'd give her a shake up and leave it for a few days. How much air did you get into the wort when you pitched??
cheers
BBB


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## iralosavic (12/11/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Not to be a wanker but mine's finished and now going to CC  . I'd give her a shake up and leave it for a few days. How much air did you get into the wort when you pitched??
> cheers
> BBB



Haha I wish mine was CCing so I could start fermenting another batch! How much air? As much as pouring it from a cube into a fermenter generates. Usually plenty! If nothing has happened by the time I next check it out, I'll get out ye faithful whisk and go at it like a bull in a vagina shop.


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## labels (12/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> Relax, have another home brew haha That's a quote in a 30 year old brewing book my grandfather gave me.


 Good about time it came back again and 30 years??????? How many centuries have they been brewing beer.

RDWHAHB, yep, think I will

Steve


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## Bada Bing Brewery (12/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> Haha I wish mine was CCing so I could start fermenting another batch! How much air? As much as pouring it from a cube into a fermenter generates. Usually plenty! If nothing has happened by the time I next check it out, I'll get out ye faithful whisk and go at it like a bull in a vagina shop.



With lagers, I shake the absolute shit out of it in the cube. Then after 24 hrs give it another good rattle. I usually get a starter going at 20C for a few hours then drop it to 10C or whatever and pitch it cold.
Good luck
Cheers
BBB


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## iralosavic (14/11/12)

Mine is down from 12.7 to 10.8 brix, so about 1.037 - Still tastes extremely sweet, just like the unfermented wort. At least it has started doing something now! I can relax and have a home brew and go and check in a week. I haven't heard of anyone needing to do a D-rest for 34/70.


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## QldKev (14/11/12)

My fastest was I pitched in the morning and by the afternoon the gravity said it was ready for kegging. I thought WOW, then I realized I checked the other fermenter.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (14/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> Mine is down from 12.7 to 10.8 brix, so about 1.037 - Still tastes extremely sweet, just like the unfermented wort. At least it has started doing something now! I can relax and have a home brew and go and check in a week. I haven't heard of anyone needing to do a D-rest for 34/70.



Heading in the right direction. Give it a few days and check again just to see if it speeds up. I just d-rest all lagers standard. I am very sensitive to diacetyl - I can stand across a room and look at a beer and tell if it has too much  
Mine is at -1C and will keg on friday. I'm just not good at the next bit though - lagering.

Cheers
BBB


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## iralosavic (15/11/12)

I've never tasted a diacetyl beer before (to the best of my knowledge) and my palate has no difficulty with butterscotch...

My brewery is not at my house and having a toddler in my care makes frequent trips to check SG not a real option, so timing a D-rest is more of a challenge than you'd expect without knowing my situation.

I've got settlement ending in March for a property with a big garage with my name on it, after which point ill be afforded all the liberties of home brewing. I'm pretty excited about it actually as I have big plans for my brewery setup (including plumbing hot water and a drain to the shed for cleaning). Getting fairly OT though!


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## iralosavic (18/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> I've never tasted a diacetyl beer before (to the best of my knowledge) and my palate has no difficulty with butterscotch...
> 
> My brewery is not at my house and having a toddler in my care makes frequent trips to check SG not a real option, so timing a D-rest is more of a challenge than you'd expect without knowing my situation.
> 
> I've got settlement ending in March for a property with a big garage with my name on it, after which point ill be afforded all the liberties of home brewing. I'm pretty excited about it actually as I have big plans for my brewery setup (including plumbing hot water and a drain to the shed for cleaning). Getting fairly OT though!



4 days later it's at 9.9 brix, so about 1.30. Very slow going! I wonder how if this is purely down to an insufficient oxygenation of the wort, as it was sat to cool overnight prior to pitching... I think it has reached the point where oxygenating it is becoming a sensible option - if I let it get too much lower first, it could oxidise the beer. For now, I have swooshed the fermenter around to get some more yeast into suspension.


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## labels (18/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> 4 days later it's at 9.9 brix, so about 1.30. Very slow going! I wonder how if this is purely down to an insufficient oxygenation of the wort, as it was sat to cool overnight prior to pitching... I think it has reached the point where oxygenating it is becoming a sensible option - if I let it get too much lower first, it could oxidise the beer. For now, I have swooshed the fermenter around to get some more yeast into suspension.



You should measure it with a hydometer, refractometers can be way off as soon as there's alcohol in the mix.

Steve


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## iralosavic (18/11/12)

labels said:


> You should measure it with a hydometer, refractometers can be way off as soon as there's alcohol in the mix.
> 
> Steve



The results I'm reporting are after using a calculator that takes the alcohol into account. I've cross-checked this calculator with numerous hydrometer readings and have concluded that it is consistent and reliable. I also taste each sample from the pipette, which gives me an indication that the reading is in the ballpark - otherwise I'd clean the refractometer and start again with a new pipette or check with a calibrated hydrometer.


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## Brewman_ (18/11/12)

A good pitch of yeast at 9 Deg. C without forced oxygenation should ferment vigorously, not just tick over, and be at FG within 7 to 10 days, even earlier. I have never been equipped to oxygenate the wort, but I expect it would be faster if you did this.

Fear


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## iralosavic (19/11/12)

fear_n_loath said:


> A good pitch of yeast at 9 Deg. C without forced oxygenation should ferment vigorously, not just tick over, and be at FG within 7 to 10 days, even earlier. I have never been equipped to oxygenate the wort, but I expect it would be faster if you did this.
> 
> Fear



By oxygenate, I just mean go at it with a whisk etc I don't have medical grade oxygen like the Yankees for airating. I'm crossing my fingers it's done by the weekend.


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## Thefatdoghead (19/11/12)

labels said:


> Okay there is a bit of controversy using this method. It is not new and is used commercially. The principal behind this is, if you crash chill you put the yeast to sleep straight away - in other words they become inactive very quickly. Chilling slowly allows yeast to become aclimatised to the lower temperatures and still remain active, albeit somewhat less than at the higher temperatures.
> 
> That's the first part. The second reasoning behind this is the yeast play a major role in cleaning up fermentation by-products after all the sugars have been exhausted. The one we all hear about all the time of course is diacetyl. There is also acetaldehyde and no doubt a bunch of others I have never heard of.
> 
> ...


I read that in "new brewing lager beer". I agree with what your saying and I practice the method for all my lagers now. As you say dont put the yeast to sleep but keep em lagering!


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## labels (19/11/12)

Gav80 said:


> I read that in "new brewing lager beer". I agree with what your saying and I practice the method for all my lagers now. As you say dont put the yeast to sleep but keep em lagering!



New brewing lager beer is a great book, it's been in my collection for years now and is a great source of information. You cannot use all the procedures in the book, some are a bit tedious, some outdated and some for big breweries that are just not scalable to a home brew level. However, the basic principles are relevent.

Relevent to you and me. You may have read in this thread it's absolute bullshit to some. I don't know who to believe sometimes, Greg Noonan or some of the posters here - hard decision sometimes I tell ya!

Steve


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## iralosavic (27/11/12)

1.008 today. Finally. Not fast by any stretch, but not unreasonable for a lager. Actually attenuated better than anticipated. Now to step it down to -2 for a week, filter, lager a couple of weeks more while carbing and finally complete the taste test! If it passes I will make it my house dry lager strain as its so readily available.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (27/11/12)

iralosavic said:


> 1.008 today. Finally. Not fast by any stretch, but not unreasonable for a lager. Actually attenuated better than anticipated. Now to step it down to -2 for a week, filter, lager a couple of weeks more while carbing and finally complete the taste test! If it passes I will make it my house dry lager strain as its so readily available.



My first keg is nearly gone  ..... lagering is not my strong suit but that's why doubles are the go. Funny how mine went off like a fire cracker and yours was more like the traditional lagers I brew (3-5 point drops a day). I hope it turns out for you.
Cheers
BBB


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## iralosavic (28/11/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> My first keg is nearly gone  ..... lagering is not my strong suit but that's why doubles are the go. Funny how mine went off like a fire cracker and yours was more like the traditional lagers I brew (3-5 point drops a day). I hope it turns out for you.
> Cheers
> BBB



To be fair it's only incidental lagering, as I just keep it close to 0c while force carbing the slow way (ie connect at serving pressure and wait). I only deliberately lager if I have plenty of full kegs (so hardly ever!).


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