# All Grain Virgin Needs Help



## Mercs Own (12/8/05)

Gidday Guys. Sorry about the heading but I thought it was catchy!

The B3 system is arriving middle of next week so in preparation I thought I would ask for guidance for my first brew or two. I reckon I am going to need all the help I can get.

I would like to keep the first couple of brews simple but have no idea on the amount of grain I will need, sparge water amounts needed etc As I have not seen or used the system and I am unclear on exactly how much wort I can expect to end up in the fermenter and so on and so forth... the B3 does batch sizes of 10 gallons but I dont know if that means that is how much fermentable wort I get - which then means the actual vessels would have to be 15 gallons?? See - I told you I need some help.

My first recipe is simply 75% Pale Malt, 25% malted wheat, two additions of Tettnager 3.6% aiming for a bottled alc of 5.5% and an ibu of around 20. Wyeast 1056.

The second brew I would like to do is a bit of a Red Hook, Red Seal type ale: Pale malt, crystal malt and some cara pils, hopping with tettnang 3.6%and willamette 4.7% (I also have some Perle 4.6% in the fridge which I have never used so could give them a go) Aiming for 5.5% alc in the bottle, 35ibu and srm around 7 - 9. I will use the 1056 for this also.

No doubt when I unwrap the b3 1550 it will all become clear to me but I would certainly love some advice, hints, tips and guidance to ease me through the loss of my AG virginity.

Thanks in advance. Oh, I have posted this on the b3 forum site also so it will be interesting to get there feed back also.

Cheers!


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## Steve (12/8/05)

Merc - sorry for laughing - but thats like buying a Ferrari (or Merc) and not knowing how to drive.. excellent! :lol:


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## Doc (12/8/05)

Hi Paul,

Backing it up a step, what size are you fermenters ? Did you say you had bought some conical ones ? How many did you get.
Knowing that and the size of your boiler the recipe can be calculated appropriately.

Beers,
Doc


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## big d (12/8/05)

and i would be very surprised if this great system didnt come with an owners manual with step by step instructions and some simple recipes to get you going and familiar with your new system.
best of luck with your first brew day paul.would love to be there.

cheers
big d


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## Mercs Own (12/8/05)

Steve, thanks for pointing that out so subtly!  And yes I do feel a little foolish regarding my call for help but there is only one way to learn and that is to jump on in. Havent driven a ferrari but I have raced around the Melbourne and Adelaide F1 tracks albeit in slow BMW's and a Volkswagon Beetle.

Doc I have the usual plastic fermenters which I guess I will be using. I also have some 18lt soda kegs that I was planning on using as fermenters - any ideas? Couldnt afford the conical's from more beer!!! As for the size of the boiler that is where I need to unwrap the system and take a look. I am suspecting it may be a 14 gallon but I am trying to confirm that.

BTW the Tettnang is 6.4%


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## Steve (12/8/05)

Mercs
What were you doing in the "celebrity" challenge in the BMWs and Beetles? C'mon fess up? Sorry but I was there and was probably laughing at you!


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## Pumpy (12/8/05)

Merc ,

If you would like some advice first download 'Beersmith' it is a simple brewing program which will help you work out how much water you need to use in the mash and the boil and give you a print out of what you have to add when .

Stay with the plastic fermenters dont use the soda kegs for fermenting .


I suggest you keep to a batch size which is manageble say you want to end up with 23 litres .

Dont do a 40 litre batch to start with .

I suggest you start with a beer style you are familiar with, get a good quality yeast .

I think no matter how your first brew proceeds , dont pannick I am sure you will get some suprisingly good results .

A good tip was given to me when I started which was brew the same recipie for a few batches , dont change you recipie until you have some consistency into your brewing .

Dont drink beer when brewing you will forget to add things .

Pumpy


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## Jazman (12/8/05)

Alos paul u may need to do a few test boils to work out how much the evoparion u have in the ketle and also how much crap is left behind in the kettle ..Also a good idea is to mark the inside of the hlt and kettel or make a dip stick so u know how much wort or water u have......It may take a couple of brews to get this right


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## Mercs Own (12/8/05)

Hey hang on Steve!! I came first in the 2000 celeb grand prix race and 3rd in this years race. 3rd and 4th at the Le mans Race in Adelaide (VW's) Still probably didnt stop you laughing though - that is why I am an entertainer!

Pumpy wotdoya mean dont drik beer while I am brewing??? Good advice guys and thank you! I have down loaded Beersmith and now need to work out how to use it. Not knowing the boiler size doesnt help with entering actual figures so again I must wait until I get the system and check it out. How do you change promash to litres?

Big D is most likely right and I will have to wait for the manual!

Kegs dont work as fermenters?

Jazzman I was hoping to get some of that kind of info from the more beer forums but I will do as you said and make a dip stick.

All good advice keep it coming!


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## big d (12/8/05)

hi paul
kegs will work as fermenters but the choice is the larger 50 litre ones.there is some great photos of set ups on this site that will help but at the moment i cant locate them.maybe some one can point us to the posting topic

cheers
big d


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## johnno (12/8/05)

Sounds like you are well on the way Mercs,
Getting brewing software was a good move.Especially as you are a total newb to all grain.
It will probably take you a few goes to start getting the feel of it.Should't take you long with a system like that to produce ripper beers.
Practice, practice , practice .
All good advice from the other members here as well.
All the best
johnno


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## Linz (12/8/05)

Mercs Own said:


> How do you change promash to litres?
> 
> 
> [post="71635"][/post]​



Merc's

Open Promash.

Above this screen you will see "Options" next to the "Help" in the top of the window,Click on Options.

This will drop "System Settings", click on this.

Top of the Left hand column of bars is "Measurement,Sizes,Precision", click on this.

Middle of this page is the "American(Imperial)/Metric Settings"
Now just click on all the metric units and then click on "OK" at the bottom of the page and YES to set as default...DONE!(you weren't being sarcastic were you??)

If I were you I would send PM's to Johnno and Sosman to drop by for a look see and a brew session.

Beerz
Linz


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## Ross (13/8/05)

Mercs own - if you're the real deal then welcome - but a guy who joins on April 1st & having read your posts.....


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## JasonY (13/8/05)

Paul, from poking about on morebeer I would guess your boiler will be 14gal and the 10gal batch size likely refers to the finished volume (which is perfect to fill to cornys). The tough bit as everyone says is figuring out your kettle losses which will be evaporation and losses to trub.

I am only familiar with promash so this is what I would do assuming you use that:

1) The batch size in promash is post boil volume so take a guess at total losses = 8L (4L evap) , so the batch size would be 38L (10gal) + 4L = 42L.

2) assume 75% efficiency, since you have a pretty good system hopefully you will hit this straight up, otherwise start at 60%.

3) Aim for an OG of 1.052 or so which @75%, 42L means you need 6.7kg Pale and 2.3kg Wheat. Hops are easy in these software packages but this batch would need about 65g @ 60 mins and 50g @ 10mins for 20IBU 

4) I would use say 3L/kg in the mash which means you need 27L of strike water. (have some boiling and cold water at hand as being the first brew you will likely over/undershoot the mash temp)

5) To sparge to recover the 46L (38L + 8L) in the kettle you will need about another 32L (grain absorbs 1L/kg, have more water on hand)

6) This should give you 38L into fermenters, so have two 30L ones ready & lots of yeast.

The 8L loss thing is a guess, I use 7L on my system which accounts for losses from evap, trub & CFC, yours will no doubt be different. I am sure I have stuffed something up in there but its a start.

All that being said given the number of unknowns about the system and being the first brew I would half the batch size (remember however that the losses will still be 8L so the batch size would be 23L so don't halve everything). Take lots of notes on temperatures of grain, strike water, initial mash temp, volumes of water used, preboil volume, postboil volume, volume in fermenters ... etc.

Hopefully after that you will be able to work out the losses along the way and future brews will be simpler. Good luck! :beer:


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## Mercs Own (13/8/05)

Thanks Johnno, Linz and JasonY! Pro Mash is now in Metric!

Ross thanks for your vote of confidence! I didnt realize that I joined on April 1st - what a coincidence!?

JasonY, the info you gave is fantastic - I actually understand most of it so I reackon there could some hope for a decent beer coming out of the system. 

As Big D said if anyone can point us to the post regarding using the soda kegs as fermenters that would be good. In the meantime I will stick with the good old buckets.


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## ozbrewer (13/8/05)

GDay Merc


The best advice I can offer on becoming proficcient in mashing is to Keep It Simple 

and

1. Buddy up with a very proficient Homebrewer, I say homebrewer as the commercial guys tend to forget that they are making good beer, and tend to cut a corner or two to save a few dollars. A home/craft brewer will have a little more passion when it comes to teaching you. Do a few brews with your new brew buddy and ask alot of dumb questions.

2. Get a refracometer......why....see note 3.

3. Underestimate your efficiency......say around 60%, that way after you run your wort into the kettle you can make adjustments to the hopping rates. If your looking for a finished wort at 1050, and your pre boil is allready at 1050 you can add water, adjust the hops excettera, 

4. for now dont be to concerned about what your final volume is, if your aming for 19 ltrs and you get 22 ltrs, if you follow rule 3, your beer will be to plan and the gu:bu will be fine.

5. Get Promash.

6. Start with a very basic recipe, say 95% pale 5% specialty, keep your hopping rates low untill you can get a good feel your your hop utilisation rates, all systems are different, and everyones formula is differnet. Brew the same beer 5-6 times and get it right, then you can see how you system reacts to slight changes

7. Plan your beer well, and try and stick to your plan, if you want a 1050 beer at 25 ibu, take a reading from your preboil and adjust the hops and any additional water to the kettle before you boil.....

8. Ask alot of questions, but be carefull of the advise you get, the internet is a realy good tool, but some people will answer questions for the sake of it, and not realy know the answer or have not tested there theory, or have taken the answer straigt from another untested sorce. However in saying that, there are some very knowledgeable people here, on HBD, and other sites.

9. Have fun.

10. Put the coopers kits in the bin


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## Mercs Own (13/8/05)

Last time I used a Coopers kit was 1993!

[1. Buddy up with a very proficient Homebrewer, I say homebrewer as the commercial guys tend to forget that they are making good beer, and tend to cut a corner or two to save a few dollars. A home/craft brewer will have a little more passion when it comes to teaching you. Do a few brews with your new brew buddy and ask alot of dumb questions.]

An interesting idea and just out of interest who is Melbourne based that has the experience?

ps how do you put quotes in the box??


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## Guest Lurker (13/8/05)

Paul

Lots of good advice there.

Jason gives good tips for hitting gravity and volume. As long as you get close to these you will make a decent beer. But another big thing to think about is hitting strike temp. If you miss badly you will make crap beer. Your software will tell you what temp the HLT should be at based on amount of grain and mash ratio and THERMAL MASS OF YOUR SYSTEM. Which you dont know yet! And even if B3 tell you in the manual I wouldnt believe them.

You will do a test run with hot water first wont you? Make sure nothing leaks, the valves are the right way round etc. When you do, heat a strike volume to about 75 degrees in the HLT. Transfer to the mash tun, measure temp 5 mins later. You will have lost maybe 5 degrees. This will account for the heating of the thermal mass of the tun, plus any heat losses in your pipework.

Go back to your brewing software and set thermal mass to zero. Ask the software what temp the strike water has to be. Add your temp drop to that to get the actual HLT temp. Use this value and you have a good chance of hitting the mash temp first go.


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## ozbrewer (13/8/05)

> like this


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## ozbrewer (13/8/05)

without the *** type *[*quote]what ever you want quoted*[/quote*]


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## Linz (13/8/05)

Mercs Own said:


> ps how do you put quotes in the box??
> 
> [post="71676"][/post]​



Bottom right corner of post you want to quote.click on quote.

Then go to "ADD REPLY" not quick reply and quote will be waiting for you,snip to suit quote and your response and then the add reply at bottom of new post


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## ausdb (13/8/05)

Mercs Own said:


> As Big D said if anyone can point us to the post regarding using the soda kegs as fermenters that would be good. In the meantime I will stick with the good old buckets.
> [post="71671"][/post]​



Hi Paul

The problem with using straight soda kegs as fermenters (or primary ones at least) is the lack of headspace. I you try a hefe (worst) or any beer with a real top cropper a 19L keg with 19L in it doesnt leave you all that much headspace and you will the return of the bubbling slime monster out of whatever blow off/airlock system you have rigged!!

With a hefe 20L of wort in a 30L fermenter still = overflow without a blow off system rigged

If you lurk on the craftbrewing list try emailing graham sanders as he ferments in kegs but he doesnt say what size he uses
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Gear/GSa...GSbrewDay.shtml

These guys in the states do a tall keg modification which solves the problem but its expensive!
http://www.kegs.com/27liter.html

As secondary fermenters soda kegs work great!

HTH Ausdb


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## roach (13/8/05)

Mercs Own said:


> As Big D said if anyone can point us to the post regarding using the soda kegs as fermenters that would be good. In the meantime I will stick with the good old buckets.
> [post="71671"][/post]​


Paul,

Here is a good link on using soda kegs as fermenters.

Cheers
roach


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## GMK (13/8/05)

Mercs Own said:


> Gidday Guys. Sorry about the heading but I thought it was catchy!
> 
> The B3 system is arriving middle of next week so in preparation I thought I would ask for guidance for my first brew or two. I reckon I am going to need all the help I can get.
> 
> ...


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## big d (13/8/05)

ok paul.my head is more level today and ive done a search and found what your looking for.i dont know how to put the ahb link onto my post but you can find it under gear and equipment.post by captain booze on march 26/05 titled turning a keg into a fermenter.heres some pics.

cheers
big d


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## Darren (13/8/05)

Merc,
The twenty litre kegs are just too small to use as fermenters. There is no reason you couldn't use them though. You would have to remove the gas-in tube to attach an airlock.
I do know from experience though, if you get a violent ferment in one of those kegs it will make a big mess. If you get pressure build up in one it is almost impossible to release it with out also making a huge mess.
I would stick with the buckets.
cheers
Darren


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## TidalPete (13/8/05)

Ross said:


> Mercs own - if you're the real deal then welcome - but a guy who joins on April 1st & having read your posts.....
> [post="71658"][/post]​



As Mercs Own's personal info gives no clue of his whereabouts I would speculate that, owing to the 'bulge' in the eastern shoreboard of our continent & the difference of 3 minutes from *real (*Brissie) *time*, he comes from somewhere in the Sydney area. Just speculating Merc's Own. Good luck with your brewing. you're a lucky man.  

:beer:


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## Mercs Own (15/8/05)

Linz said:


> Mercs Own said:
> 
> 
> > ps how do you put quotes in the box??
> ...




Like This?


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## SJW (15/8/05)

Mercs Own said:


> Linz said:
> 
> 
> > Mercs Own said:
> ...



You got it brother. What a strange thread this has turned out to be. You sound like a one off, Mercs Own!


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## Mercs Own (17/8/05)

A one off?? I read a news paper story about a guy with my name whom was caught filming a couple having sex in a confesional box at a church in New York. It was part of a stunt for a radio station. Why a radio station wanted film is strange enough.... Anyway I got a lot of hits on my web site telling me how disgusted people were with me for doing such a thing!! It wasnt me!!! Ross probably wont believe me! This guy was a New York comedian I am just an Aussie home brewer! Same name though!? They say that we all have a double somewhere!! (mine is usually a wild turkey and coke)

Back to topic - My system has arrived and it is unpacked - I will take some pictures and post them here. Funny thing is after a bit of a search on the Real Beer forums I found a guy in Sydney that bought the same system as me earlier this year. I emailed him to see how it was going and found out he recieved his system the same day as me! I will leave it to him if he wishes to post here and reveal who he is. Hopefully we can swap brewing stories.

The gas fitting on the B3 is an American connector and doesnt fit my gas bottle so I am sourcing an Aussie connector and regulator, other than that two of the quick disconnects got damaged in transit. More beer have already posted out a couple of replacements. Hopefully put through a hot water test on the weekend and the first brew after that.


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## bonk (17/8/05)

sweet! 

we need a green with envy icon 

hope it all goes smoothly


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## cubbie (17/8/05)

ozbrewer said:


> 3. Underestimate your efficiency......say around 60%, that way after you run your wort into the kettle you can make adjustments to the hopping rates. If your looking for a finished wort at 1050, and your pre boil is allready at 1050 you can add water, adjust the hops excettera,
> 
> 
> 7. Plan your beer well, and try and stick to your plan, if you want a 1050 beer at 25 ibu, take a reading from your preboil and adjust the hops and any additional water to the kettle before you boil.....
> ...



Do you base your bittering hop additions on the pre-boil volume and gravity rather than the finishing boil volume and gravity? Another pre and post boil question. Should you test you gravity at the pre-boil stage to calculate you efficiency? I have just completed my first partial and tested the gravity once the brew was in the fermentor, but before I added the yeast starter.


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## pint of lager (17/8/05)

If you are aiming for 23 litres into the fermenter, and lose 2 litres to trub and hops, you are actually brewing 25 litres of beer and hop 25 litres according to the expected end of boil gravity. 

So if you lose 10% per hour, boil for 90 minutes, you start with 30 litres into the boiler at a lower sg, lose 15% or 4.5 litres to boil off. You end up with 25.5 litres, then lose 2 litres to trub, 23.5 into fermenter.

This all takes a bit of juggling. Your brewing software may or may not deal with the losses.

This is why I suggest new brewers do a middle of the road pale ale for your first brew. If you muck something up, you still end up with a beer within guidelines.

So you base your hopping on the expected sg and volume of beer in the boiler, after the boil is completed and prior to running through the chiller.

To work out your extraction efficiency (how much wort you extract from the grain), you take an sg and volume reading prior to boiling. 

To work out your system overall efficiency, (which is a combination of your extraction efficiency and your gear setup) you take a volume and sg reading in the fermneter.


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## Mercs Own (17/8/05)

Pint of Lager, great info thanks!

It has brought up more questions but I think I will go and look them up in one of my books so I can at least work out the right way to ask the question.


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## SJW (18/8/05)

Hey Paul,
So have you brushed Coopers all together now?


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## Mercs Own (22/8/05)

SJW, not at all - I still drink the stuff. I used to be a roving ambassador for them but that all ended a year ago as I thought bringing out my own beer and promoting Coopers didnt really go together.

Once I crank up my B3 - still waiting on a couple of replacement disconnects, I reckon I might mostly be drinking my own beer from then on.


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