# Roggenbier



## Tony (1/4/06)

Well a roggenbier will be born tomorrow in tamworth 

I hava researched, asked questions on here and elswere and googled all i could but found very limited info or advice on the subjust of german rye beers.

I will use this thread to keep anyone interested in the style up to date with the progress and flavours of the beer

I have no idea what it will taste like :blink: 

I have learnt enough in the last few months of research to come up with a fair recipe i think.

Roggenbier

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 46.00 Wort Size (L): 46.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.00
Anticipated OG: 1.053 Plato: 13.07
Anticipated EBC: 31.2
Anticipated IBU: 18.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.7 5.00 kg. TF Pale Rye Malt UK 1.034 8
25.0 3.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
16.7 2.00 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
10.0 1.20 kg. Rice Hulls Australia 1.000 0
5.0 0.60 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 100
1.7 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special I Germany 1.036 950

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.20 10.1 60 min.
45.00 g. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.20 5.6 15 min.
45.00 g. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.20 2.3 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.10 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen




I just cracked the grain for it.

I wet the barley malt and cracked as normal at 0.9 mm gap. Perfect crack, nice whole husks and well crushed grains.

Tipped the rye into the mills hopper and had a good look at it. Its a long and thin grain.... I turne un the mill and ran about 200g through and stopped it to check the crush.

It was fairly fine, most of the grains were broken up, but only into like 2 or 3 bits and about 1/5 were still whole. mmmmmm 50% efficiency here we come :angry: 

So i ran it all through like this and tipped it back into the hopper and ran it through again.

Ahhhh thats better, its a fine crush with no more whole grains. I figure if i have as much rice hulls in as i do, a fine crack with the rye will be ok. I am after a rye character so a course crack would be useless.

any way, i will take some pics of the mash and keep it updated with progress reports on the beer.

I mat enter it into the NSW state champs if its any good.

cheers


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## Trent (2/4/06)

Good luck with it Tony
I have read that Rye is a little difficult to work with, but I think that you are well on top of it with all them rice hulls. Keep us apdated as to how it goes, would love to hear how it tastes. I have 3 nights in Germany later this year, so would like to know if this style would be worth searching out, or skipping! Always good to see people willing to give the unusual styles a go, just to see what they taste like, and a double batch no less :super: Full points to you
Trent


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## Tony (2/4/06)

well just finished mashing and is now running to the kettle.

The wort has a consistancy i have never seen.

It is like brown velvet syrup. Its creamy. 

I needed more rice hulls too. Its pumping out of the ton, but reeeeeealy slow. Its going to take over an hour to fill the kettle.

Also it smells fantastic, i did a dunkelweizen last week and this smells better. It smells rich and hearty. Cant wait to try this one.

cheers.

Will post some pics tonight.


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## Tony (2/4/06)

Well i finally got the lot in the firmenter.

This rye malt is no fun to use in large quantities i can tell ya.

I ended up havig to add more rice hulls to get it out of the mash ton. I used 16 liters in the end. 2 liters weighs 200g so thats 1.6 kg of the bloody things. 

If any one has seen how many rice hulls you get in 1kg you will apreciate how gluggy this stuff goes.

The wort was silky, thats the only way i can discribe it, when you dipped your finger in it and then sucked it off to taste it, it took 4 goes to get it off your finger !!

I set my efficiency to 75% and ended up with 83%.

Wanted 46L @ 1.053 and got 45L @ 1.060.

Im thinking of leaving it as is and calling it a doppelroggenbier  It will be a specialty beer so why watter it down.

firs pic is off the spent grain with all those rice hulls. the second is of how i steralise my pump before i pump to the firmenter. I empyt the mash ton, clean it out and fill it with 10 liters of iodophur solution and circulate it through the pump and lines before i atach it to the cooled kettle to pump the wort to the firmenter.

just thought some may be interested 

I did take pics of the mash and decoctions but i stuffed up with the camers and they are 2 Gig files so wont fit on here. They were a didtinct borwn and burgandy color. I have never seen a color like this in a brew and ive done a couple.

cheers floks.

Will keep you posted if your interested...... :unsure:


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## Tony (2/4/06)

here is the pump steralising


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## Tony (9/4/06)

Racked it today.

It went from 1.060 to 1.020 in 2 days @ 17 deg and stopped dead!!!

I tipped into a yeast cake from the dunkelweizen brewed before and it took off like a rocket.

The BJCP guidelines say to brew at lower temp to supress esters and it still went faster than i have seen before.

The dunkelweizen went form 1.048 to 1.016 in 3 days and stopped dead too so i think its a problem with the yeast.

It should have gone down to 1.016 at least.

I have ordered a pack of SAF Wheat from ross and will re-hydrate it and chuck it in to see if it will chew it down a bit more.

And the texture. Yess this beer has a TEXTURE. Its more than just a liquid.

It has a slight "syrip" quality to it but not like honey. Its like everything it does is in slow motion. I checked the gravity and the bubbles rising up in the test tube rise at half the speed of a normal beer and it didnt sloosh around in the firmenter when i racked it to secondary, it kind of ran in gently and smoothly.

It has a silky texture in your nouth and a defimate flavor is starting to come through, its going to be a stand out beer for sure.

cheers


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## Millet Man (9/4/06)

Tony said:


> This rye malt is no fun to use in large quantities i can tell ya.
> 
> I ended up havig to add more rice hulls to get it out of the mash ton. I used 16 liters in the end. 2 liters weighs 200g so thats 1.6 kg of the bloody things.
> 
> If any one has seen how many rice hulls you get in 1kg you will apreciate how gluggy this stuff goes.



Tony,

Jeez, that's about as much rice hulls (per kg of malt) as I use in a gluten free mash, and I have no grain husk at all. :blink: 

When it gets that gluggy mash bed depth is real important, any more than 3-4 kg of malt in my 30cm diameter lauter tun and no amount of rice hulls will save you.

I entered a roggenbier in Beerfest this year and it scored real well (6th in specialty section), though it apparently needed more rye character - which is understandable since I made it with malted millet, making it a hirsebier actually.

Sounds like the real thing will be tasty, damn shame.  

Interested to hear how it comes out.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## schoey (9/4/06)

Hi Tony,
I'm really interested in roggenbiers but don't have the facilities to do one at the moment, being a extract brewer and all. To me, rye is a hell of an interesting grain, I love rye breads and would love to brew a beer with it. Can't wait to hear how this turns out.


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## Tony (27/4/06)

bottled it just then.

Its smelling and tasting great.

The gravity finnished a bit high @ 1.020 but it have been assured that sine conciddering what went in it.

It still has its silky smooth mouth feel.

Its a deep copper color and i just hope i got the priming amount right 

here are a couple of pics of the bottling process complete with the kids mess in the background and a clear bottle trying to get a shot of the color of it at sunset.

cheers


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## Fingerlickin_B (27/4/06)

I really like the colour man...not that it really matters...I love that tone in beers...it just looks great! :beerbang: 

Well, I didn't really have much to add there, did I? 

Still think it looks great tho h34r: 

PZ.


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## Fingerlickin_B (27/4/06)

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Tony (6/5/06)

well there has been a bit of a following on this little experiment.

I didnt post pics of the mash at the beginning cause my new camera was set a bit fine and the pics were 2 gig files.

Well i got some resizing software so i will stick the pics on now.

I know its just grain and water but i was blown away by the color of it

I have been checking the bottles and the lids dont seem to be getting the pop up "dimple" in the cap to indicate pressure. I hope the yeast wasnt desd when i bottled it. after all this i will be heart broken if it doesnt carb up.

I have a few bottles in my warm laundry. Will giveem another week and ones getting opened.

cheers


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## kook (7/5/06)

Well you've now inspired me to hunt down some Roggenbier when I'm in Germany later this month


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## Pumpy (8/5/06)

Tony , 

I love your posts you always post 

1) a recipe .
2) plenty of pictures .
3) a Good explanation of what you have done .

You always share your experience for others to try .

Great work mate !!!

Pumpy


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## Tony (8/5/06)

thanks mate.

tried one last night.

dead flat !!!

oh no..... i think the yeast must have been dead. I remember bulk priming it. I kept 4 bottles in my warm laundry at about 20 to 22 deg since bottling almost 2 weeks ago.

im a bit depressed now.

will give it a month of so and see.

shame if it has to be tipped out.

dejected cheers


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## warrenlw63 (8/5/06)

Tony

If it doesn't carb up you can always get some fresh yeast going and uncap all the bottles, put an eyedropper full in each bottle, recap and store it warm for a few weeks. 

It's a real pain to do but will work. Beats tossing the batch down the sink.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy (8/5/06)

if they don't carbonate, I'd suggest pouring them gently into a keg and gassing it up for rapid consumption due to the high likelihood of oxidation.
Depends how much U have in bottles.

I'm happy to assist if you can give me a few days notice. I'll have to visit friends in Armidale or Quirindi while I'm there.

Beerz
Seth  

P.S. I haven't made the rauchbier yet, but it's about #3 on my brewlist now. Gotta start the Bavarian lager yeast first. Yum!


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## warrenlw63 (8/5/06)

Weizguy said:


> if they don't carbonate, I'd suggest pouring them gently into a keg and gassing it up for rapid consumption due to the high likelihood of oxidation.
> Depends how much U have in bottles.
> 
> [post="125046"][/post]​



Weiz.

Michael Jackson says that Ham and Rye bread sandwiches pair well with a Roggenbier.

With your suggestion of pouring the beer into a keg I'd suggest putting some mustard on your fist and inserting it between two slices of Rye. :blink: :lol: 

That could be tantamount to ruination. h34r: 

Warren -


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## Weizguy (8/5/06)

What sort of mustard, Warren?

If the beer is flat and warm when decanted gently to the keg, would it still pick up enough oxygen to ruin the beer immediately, or do U have a few days before it starts to taste of cardboard? Hence my offer to assist with rapid consumption.
I've never done this, so I'm keen to hear any facts/opinions you can provide.

Otherwise, I suggest that Tony hangs on to the bottles and maybe places them in a warm room to assist carbonation.

Seth


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## warrenlw63 (8/5/06)

Weizguy said:


> What sort of mustard, Warren?
> 
> 
> [post="125083"][/post]​



German! 

Is there any other? :lol: 

Warren -


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## Tony (8/5/06)

thanks guys.

there is 40 liters of the bloody stuff.

I have some dried safwheat here. I will give them a couple of more weeks and see whats happening, then i might try the eyedropper thing.

cheers


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## Tony (8/5/06)

second thought....... it doesnt have to be a wheat yeast hey.

might do it with some lager yeast from my CAP. that will carb it in my cold garage them 

cheers


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## Tony (19/5/06)

uncapped, added 1 eye dropper of german lager yeast to each bottle and re capped.

If they dont carb up i will try putting a teaspoon of dextrose in each bottle.

Ill get gas in the bloody things if its the last thing i do 

cheers


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## kook (22/5/06)

I was going through the bottles in my garage today looking for something interesting to drink, when i found a bottle of Thurn und Taxis Roggen!

I didn't even realise I'd bought a Roggenbier until then 

Heres my tasting notes for anyone interested:

Aroma: 8/10, Appearance: 4/5, Flavour: 6/10, Palate: 3/5, Overall: 13/20
Total Score: 68/100
Dark, dark amber, almost brown. Suprisingly high carbonation, with a short to medium beige lasting head. Lovely yeasty banana and spice aroma, with some citrusy lemon notes too. Malty biscuit flavour, some banana and a strange acidic tang in the finish. Refreshing, but smells better than it tastes.


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## tangent (16/7/07)

I did my version of a Roggenbeir on the weekend. Tony, you're not kidding about a slow sparge! Took about 2 hours to sparge twice. Smelled great and had a kind of oily look to it.
Will dump onto a Bavarian Wheat cake once my Dunkelweizen is finished.

Did yours ever carb up Tony?
How was the final product?


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## Tony (16/7/07)

it got second place in the wheat catagoty at last years state champs 

Yeah it carbed up fine once i fed the priming sugar to some viable lager yeast. 

There must have been something wrong with the 3068 i had...... it did get a bit overheated in the starter flask.

It turned out to be one of the most fantastic beers i have made. Its smooth and luscious, spicy and sweet but dry.

i will make it again if i ever get the courage up to mess with that much rye malt again  

worth it though.

All mine are gone now, i think the only bottle left in existance is one i gave to luke at potters brewery to try...... last time i was there he hadnt cracked it yet. After a year it dried out more and lost a lot of its spicy malt character and the yeast character was gone but still a great drink.

here is what mine looked like

cheers

edit: what was your recipe mate?


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## tangent (16/7/07)

Roggenbier

Selected Style
German Wheat/Rye Beer-Roggenbier


Recipe Overview
Wort Volume Before Boil: 34.00 l Wort Volume After Boil: 28.00 l
Volume Transferred: 27.00 l Water Added To Fermenter: 0.00 l
Volume At Pitching: 27.00 l Volume Of Finished Beer: 27.00 l
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.048 SG Expected OG: 1.058 SG
Expected FG: 1.014 SG Apparent Attenuation: 75.0 %
Expected ABV: 5.9 % Expected ABW: 4.6 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 18.2 IBU Expected Color: 36.1 EBC
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 % Approx Color:	
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins 
Fermentation Temperature: 20 degC 


Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	When
Australian Wheat Malt 3.00 kg 40.7 % In Mash/Steeped
Australian Pale Ale Malt 1.50 kg 20.3 % In Mash/Steeped
German Rye Malt 1.50 kg 20.3 % In Mash/Steeped
Australian Dark Munich 1.00 kg 13.6 % In Mash/Steeped
German Caramel Wheat Malt 0.25 kg 3.4 % In Mash/Steeped
German Chocolate Wheat Malt 0.13 kg 1.8 % In Mash/Steeped

Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	Form	When
German Hallertauer Mittlefruh 4.1 45 g Loose Whole Hops 60 Min From End
German Hallertauer Hersbrucker 3.5 15 g Loose Whole Hops 20 Min From End

Yeast
Wyeast 3056-Bavarian Wheat


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## Jye (16/7/07)

Hey tangent, why didnt your go all rye instead of a mix of wheat and rye?

I love rye and have a Roggenbier second in line after a hefe... cant wait :beerbang:


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## tangent (16/7/07)

good question Jye.

firstly, I'd just done a Rye IPA with only 11.7% Rye and 0.6% crystal Rye. I thought they really complimented the beer without overpowering it.

Then i did some research on Roggenbiers here: http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/Roggenbier.html

"usually made from a grain bill of about half barley malt and equal portions of wheat and rye malts."

So I've gone with 20.3% instead of 25% as I think it would be easy for the Rye to dominate and the tartness of wheat would be a good match with the chosen yeast as well.


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## Tony (16/7/07)

i think the recipe looks tops.

I think i used 40% rye and a lot of munich and it was a MALTY beer and very spicy.

less rye would help with the sparge too...... oh the horror. I will never forget trying to sparge that beer. 

cheers


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## Jye (16/8/07)

Hey tangent,

How did the roggen turn out? Mine went into the keg yesterday after a few days of CCing, still yeasty but I think that is due to wb-06 being a poor flocculator. Ill add some tasting notes and pics on the weekend :chug:


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## tangent (16/8/07)

i'm ashamed to say Jye, it's my 2nd no-chill, and it's still no-chilling waiting for yeast!
Oh the shame....
I've been drinking Dunkelweizen, wine and whisky through the colder weather.
I'll dump it in a fermenter and introduce some yeast tomorrow.


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## tangent (19/8/07)

update...

i'm surrounded by so much beer i'm forgetting what's what.
The 2nd no-chill was a porter. sitting next to it was a jerry of finished roggenbier
i had a taste as i kegged it today. oh man is that going to be an interesting beer. it almost seemed kinda oily in texture but the bavarian wheat yeast has balanced it out really well with a fruity/dry finish. carbing will change it even more.


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## Jye (19/8/07)

tangent said:


> it almost seemed kinda oily in texture ...



This is my first impression too. It is still very yeast so will give it a bit longer before getting stuck into the keg. Im also afraid that the mash hasnt converted fully as it has a very muddy appearance and with 50% rye which has a low DP it could have done with a bit longer in the mash. I think this was also the case with my case swap beer which was 30% rye and also looks like mud  

Pics will follow.


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## Ross (19/8/07)

I had my last bottle of Rye beer the other day which was made at the Big Brew day over 3 years ago. Still the colour of Brisbane River water, even after all these years - Still tasted pretty good mind  

Cheers Ross


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## tangent (20/8/07)

update
slightly carbed and already, i can say, DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! 

edit - have posted the recipe above, but the wheat is weyermann dark wheat and the pale malt was galaxy.

Love this combo. Can't wait to experiment with a different yeast, but it's a little ripper!


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## tangent (21/8/07)

jye, 25% rye seems the norm, and i went with around 20%. maybe youre pushing the limits of rye?


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## Tony (21/8/07)

i used around 40% in mine (all gone now) and it was quite murky. IT cleared up a bit after 12 month but that was the last of it.

Oily it right...... viscous is a good word for it.

may have to brew another soon, i miss that spicy hit and that syripey but crisp feel in the mouth.

Trully an extrodinary style.

Horray for mash brewing, how else would we try these things.

cheers


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## Weizguy (21/8/07)

I'll confirm Tony's appraisal of his Roggebier.

Yep, it was oily and viscous, and it had a strong rye taste (like liquid pumpernickel bread).

So maybe 40% is a bit high for a daily drinker, but it might make a great thick Barley-Ryewine at 9%+.

Craigm's roggenbier in the 2007 Christmas in July case was very drinkable, at about 20% rye , IIRC.

Cheers
Seth


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## Tony (21/8/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> So maybe 40% is a bit high for a daily drinker, but it might make a great thick Barley-Ryewine at 9%+.



 great..... Juuuuuuuuuust GREAT.

How am i suposed to get around to brewing all these nice beers. That sounds like a tops concept. 

Stop putting ideas in my head  

cheers


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## Weizguy (21/8/07)

Tony said:


> great..... Juuuuuuuuuust GREAT.
> 
> How am i suposed to get around to brewing all these nice beers. That sounds like a tops concept.
> 
> ...


Yep, that's me. The "ideas" man.

Too many concept beers...

Maybe it's my turn to brew this one and share it with you?

Speaking of "concept" beers, I need to chill and taste Trent's Wheat Trippel (Don de Dieu) clone tonight.

Seth out  

(P.S. Roggen-rauch could be nice, too :lol: )


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## Tony (21/8/07)

10% in a christmass beer could be interesting too. Thinking a nice pale honey cinemon lager would be good for Xmas too

That reminds me.....I forget to grab those rauchbiers from marks when i was there last.

might duck down shortly and grab them.

anyway... back on topic.....

cheers


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## tangent (21/8/07)

i treated mine like a normal wheat beer. 43-64-70-78 mash and added 1.5kgs of malted rye. i've always loved the resulting beer but this has added a whole new dimension!


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## Jye (23/8/07)

Well here she is, its a dark and gloomy day in Brisbane which doesnt help the clarity... but then again I dont think anything will  

It has all of the weizen characteristics and a slick spiciness which you would expect to go together :huh: but its going down nicely :chug:


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## sjc (23/8/07)

A malt sandwich for lunch Jye?!
Pace yourself!
Cheers
Stephen.


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## Jye (23/8/07)

Just warming up for BABBs "Foreign Beers Night"  

Hopefully they wont all be lagers <_<


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## sjc (23/8/07)

If they are your tastebuds will be seriously compromised!
Cheers
Stephen.


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## facter (24/8/07)

Hmmm.

Slight tangent .. I want to make a witbier tomorrow ... and Ive been wanting to do a rye for some time now. Alas, I am unable tog et hold of any rye malt ...

I can, however, get hold of about two kilos of unmalted rye. i understand that the color that rye would give to a wit would be more of a peetermanish color, but thats fine .. its the flavour id like to try.

So, how would unmalted rye go in a wit instead of the raw wheat? I have plenty of rice hulls, so Im not too scared of the sparge ... yet.


Anyone used it or done this?


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## craig maher (24/8/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Craigm's roggenbier in the 2007 Christmas in July case was very drinkable, at about 20% rye , IIRC.
> 
> Cheers
> Seth



You are correct Les - it was 20% rye / 20% wheat / 57% pils / 3% carawheat.
Even at 20% the beer did still seem a little viscous.
Definately one to make again.

Cheers,

Craig


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## tangent (24/8/07)

try the unmalted rye with a protein rest. let us know how it goes.


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## Tony (27/8/07)

HEy roggen heads

HEre are some glasses to drink from on ebay

cheers

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/3-Roggen-Schierling...1QQcmdZViewItem


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## tangent (4/9/07)

update

fark! double fark! i like this beer!
it's really got the clove sharpness and i love it!
plenty enough banana and to screwy, yes ferment temp isn't all there is to banana, without a doubt.
i could easily up the rye malt to 25% but that would be my oily limit.
fark nose how you can drink a 50% rye beer Jye. it'd be like the Exxon Valdez


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## Tony (4/9/07)

mine was 40% Rye 

here are some comments from the NSW state comp judging sheets

Great aroma, spice fruit & some nice yeasty sourness. Good yeast strain picked. Could turn up the volume. (I brewed it at 18 deg. C)
Great beer, get me a fireplace and a plate of cheese. Expression on palate is excellent, fruit, spice, rye. Love the tanginess. Damn near to perfect.
Big but smooth malt character, yet still finishes to a dry, inviting, give me more!
An excellent example of an uncommon style. Balance of malt and spice from the rye component is very well done. Good beer, great effort.
Distinct rye aroma. Accompanying spiciness. Clove phenolic / chlorophenolics. Great for style. 
Malt. Light spicy flavour. Low bitterness. Clove character evident. Finishes dry with somewhat tart character. Good for style, perhaps a little sweet.

cheers


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## yardy (26/9/07)

Guys,
planning a Roggenbier atm,
45% Rye, bittered to 19 IBU with Tettnang and Saaz, going with the WB-06 @ 18*C, is this too cool do you think ?

Cheers

Yard


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## Ross (26/9/07)

yardy said:


> Guys,
> planning a Roggenbier atm,
> 45% Rye, bittered to 19 IBU with Tettnang and Saaz, going with the WB-06 @ 18*C, is this too cool do you think ?
> 
> ...



Yard - Go 22c mate, this seems the optimum temp for this yeast on trials so far.

cheers Ross


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## yardy (26/9/07)

Ross said:


> Yard - Go 22c mate, this seems the optimum temp for this yeast on trials so far.
> 
> cheers Ross



Thanks mate, i had read that here and will probably go with that but listening to the podcast where i got the recipe from, it's reccommended to ferment the two choices of yeasts, 3068 & WP0300 ( i think ) at 17*C so i tought i might go a bit cooler with WB-06, what will it contribute at lower temps ?

Cheers

Yard


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## roger mellie (26/9/07)

I would put my vote in at 21 - 22. Good balance of Clove and Banana (I got Bubblegum in the froth also).

Colder might accentuate the Clove - when I found at 21-22 there was plenty.

The 3333 fact sheet recommends 23 as the top for this yeast BTW.

RM


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## yardy (26/9/07)

Thanks Rog,

I think I'll meet it halfway and go @ 20*C, i'm sooooo looking forward to brewing/trying this beer, i'm drinking a 30% Rye IPA atm and loving it, probably the best i've brewed imvho.

Cheers

Yard


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## yardy (6/10/07)

geeeez.....

the bloody sparge of a 45% Rye is not an easy thing to do !

it only stuck once but a veeeery slooooooow runoff.

reading today that some Roggenbiers can be up to 65% Rye  

Yard


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## DarkFaerytale (8/10/07)

just gonna add my 2C as this is the first time i'v noticed this thread. made my first roggenbier weekend befor last

23L
1.057
18IBU

45.5% rye malt
22.7% munich 1
22.7% Pilsner
8.2% caramunich 1
0.9% carafa spec. II

tettanang and 60M and 8G tettnang at 15 mins

wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen

i mashed at 64-66 (lost 2degree's over the hour) and i'm kind of hopeing that might dry it out a little as the wort is very 'thick'. the sparge is frekkin awfull, i read somewhere 2L of rice hulls will do, that is so wrong! a kilo of the stuff would be alot better. i had 4 stuck sparges, sucks balls. but ended up with 75% efficiancy which i was surprised by and i was aiming for 70. like others have said the consistancy reminds me of oil and i'm brewing it at the lower end of the temperature scale just to see how it goes (17-18). the beer is for the vic x-mas case but i'm worried it might not be mature enough so maybe i'll hold on to it and put it in the july case instead.

i keep saying i won't brew a roggenbier again, but at the same time i have a kind of "dunkel-roggenbier" recipe that i wouldn't mind trying out as well. god dam i love that caraaroma 

don't forget the rice hulls!

-Phill


----------



## yardy (8/10/07)

DarkFaerytale said:


> just gonna add my 2C as this is the first time i'v noticed this thread. made my first roggenbier weekend befor last
> 
> 23L
> 1.057
> ...



DF,

i didn't use any rice hulls and had one 'stick', but like i said it was very slow.
mashed @ 67*C and fermenting @ 18*C, i'm going with JZ's recipe and advice on ferment temp, is that where you're working from or is this your own ?
know what you mean about the consistency  

Cheers

Yard


----------



## DarkFaerytale (8/10/07)

yeah Ross just rang me then about the roggenbier and said there was no need for the hulls, hopefully he'll post and explanation up on this thread as i'm bad at explaining things, so don't listen to what i said about adding rice hulls  and thanks again for the call Ross

yep the recipie and advice was based on jamil's from his podcast but i changed the numbers around a little bit and added tettnang as the last eddition instead of saaz

-Phill


----------



## Jye (8/10/07)

DarkFaerytale said:


> i mashed at 64-66 (lost 2degree's over the hour) and i'm kind of hopeing that might dry it out a little as the wort is very 'thick'. the sparge is frekkin awfull, i read somewhere 2L of rice hulls will do, that is so wrong! a kilo of the stuff would be alot better. i had 4 stuck sparges, sucks balls. but ended up with 75% efficiancy which i was surprised by and i was aiming for 70. like others have said the consistancy reminds me of oil and i'm brewing it at the lower end of the temperature scale just to see how it goes (17-18). the beer is for the vic x-mas case but i'm worried it might not be mature enough so maybe i'll hold on to it and put it in the july case instead.
> 
> i keep saying i won't brew a roggenbier again, but at the same time i have a kind of "dunkel-roggenbier" recipe that i wouldn't mind trying out as well. god dam i love that caraaroma
> 
> ...



Hey DF, 

Mine finished up at 1.010 and still has the oily slick mouth feel, so I think its just a character of the rye and drying it out wont help. 

As for a dunkel-roggenbier a roggenbier is already dunkelish, the guidelines describe it as a dunkelweizen with rye instead of wheat.

Make sure you post a pic once your drinking it :chug:


----------



## tangent (8/10/07)

if you step mash and use the right yeast, you can keep the oily mouth feel but still end up with a dry finish.


----------



## Jye (8/10/07)

What steps did you use? I used a 20 min p-rest before 60 min sac at 65 C.


----------



## DarkFaerytale (8/10/07)

Jye said:


> Hey DF,
> 
> Mine finished up at 1.010 and still has the oily slick mouth feel, so I think its just a character of the rye and drying it out wont help.
> 
> ...


ta Jye

i just ment something darker than the roggenbier color scale and also higher in alcohol, perhaps roggenbock would have been a better discription?  *has thoughts of a roggen dopple wiezen bock*

will do! i havn't added to the 'what are you drinking thread' for some time now actually!

-Phill


----------



## tangent (8/10/07)

i used my wheat step Jye
43-63-70-78


----------



## yardy (16/12/07)

my latest roggen with T-58, love that rye...........


----------



## reVoxAHB (16/12/07)

yardy said:


> my latest roggen with T-58, love that rye...........



where's the bow down before thee beer emoticon?
looks tops yardy!

reVox


----------



## yardy (17/12/07)

thanks mate,
the T-58 works well with the rye, finished a bit high @ 1014, going to try the same grain bill with a lager yeast @ lager temp next.
cheers
yard

where's your roggen btw


----------



## reVoxAHB (18/12/07)

My 46% Rye double-decocted Roggenbier:






The full recipe is here. I decocted at 52C, 67C.
Pulled 30% approx. at 52C held for 20m at 65C to 10m boil
Pulled 40% approx. at 67C held for 20m at 72C to 10m boil
I went with 1kg of rice hulls
Fly sparged for 60-75m approx. ever so gently recircing (slooooow) for a nicely compacted grain bed, once I felt comfortable (with the bed) i upped the runnings to the same speed as a normal brew. No stuck sparge  which I was really pleased with.. and I'll tell you, the bed looked like setting-concrete.. would not be fun to do battle with. My advice would be to take your time in sparging this one. Paitence is a virtue.

I used the 3056 Bavarian Wheat cake from my Weizen which I kegged on the same day (as Roggen brew). Shot off within an hour or two. Fermed at 20C. 

Overall, it's the most interesting beer I've ever brewed. I've really enjoyed it. The texture, as Tony pointed out, is something truly unique. Velvety, syrupy almost. I don't have any oily elements to my brew, as others noted. I'm very happy with the balance of clove, spice and bananna. I'm getting more (of the aformented) in aroma, and flavour is dominated by the rich malt character from Rye, and I'm guessing the decoctions.

It had been over a month since I'd pulled a Roggen from the keg (savoring it) and first beer I'd pulled was obviously a bit heady. Check out the almost syrupy drip you Roggenheads will enjoy:





It's almost impossible to describe the texture of this beer and how the carbonation struggles to reach the head. I think Tony said it's like everything's in slow montion.. Without really putting much thought into it, I shot a video clip with my digital camera (apologies on the rotated view and qual). It's in .mov format and works in VLC Media Player. Grab it here. It's enough to give you an idea :icon_cheers: 

Thanks to Tony and Yardy and those who've contributed to this thread!

Roggen on,
reVox


----------



## yardy (18/12/07)

mine pours exactly the same, it's a bit like a guiness in the way it _slowly_ chases the head up.

nice looking drop mate, thanks for the update, btw, you outdid me in %age by 1, time to go to 50% i think  

cheers
yard


----------



## fixa (1/2/08)

Well after chatting with Yardy and Ross, i'm gonna attempt this beer tommorow morning...

Here's my version;

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Roggen 1
Brewer: Barking Hound Brewhaus and Drinkery
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Roggenbier (German Rye Beer)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 19.00 L 
Boil Size: 23.17 L
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 18.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 19.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.80 kg Rye Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 47.46 % 
1.60 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (9.0 SRM) Grain 27.12 % 
1.30 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SGrain 22.03 % 
0.20 kg Carafa I (337.0 SRM) Grain 3.39 % 
35.00 gm Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 19.7 IBU 
1.00 items Banana (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.90 kg
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 17.70 L of water at 72.7 C 67.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 17.38 L of water at 84.2 C 75.0 C


OK....

Now the cluey ones out there would realise that the mash in + mash out does not equal the boil volume.
Ross tells me that he's needed at least 6 extra litres due to grain absorption, so that's the start point. And will prob go up from there..
And the Banana??? well.. I'm using WB-06..

Will let you know how it goes.


----------



## Ross (1/2/08)

Just kegged this one...tasting great :icon_cheers: 




*Roggenjosh*
Roggenbier (German Rye Beer) 

Type: All Grain
Date: 19/01/2008 
Batch Size: 27.00 L
Brewer Josh
Boil Size: 35.31 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00 

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.30 kg Rye Malt (weyermann) (5.0 EBC) Grain 50.93 % 
1.25 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (25.0 EBC) Grain 19.29 % 
1.25 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 19.29 % 
0.40 kg Crystal Rye Malt (Bairds) (157.6 EBC) Grain 6.17 % 
0.20 kg Melanoiden Malt (39.4 EBC) Grain 3.09 % 
0.08 kg Carafa II (1150.0 EBC) Grain 1.23 % 
10.00 gm Pacific Jade [15.20 %] (60 min) Hops 14.3 IBU 
10.00 gm Pacific Jade [15.20 %] (10 min) Hops 5.2 IBU 
0.50 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
2.00 small Bananas (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs CraftBrewer Weizen (Fermentis #S-08) Yeast-Wheat 

Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Final Gravity: 1.013 SG 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.08 % 
Bitterness: 19.5 IBU Calories: 489 cal/l 

Cheers Ross


----------



## Stuster (1/2/08)

Ross said:


> *Roggenjosh*




Great name, Ross. :lol: :super: 

Oh, beer looks mighty fine too. :chug:


----------



## roger mellie (1/2/08)

Ross said:


> Just kegged this one...tasting great :icon_cheers:
> 
> View attachment 17505
> 
> ...



Hey Rossco - did you use your Spunding Valve on this one? 

Great name for a beer BTW.

RM


----------



## Jye (1/2/08)

fixa said:


> Now the cluey ones out there would realise that the mash in + mash out does not equal the boil volume.
> Ross tells me that he's needed at least 6 extra litres due to grain absorption, so that's the start point. And will prob go up from there..
> And the Banana??? well.. I'm using WB-06..
> 
> Will let you know how it goes.



fixa, I didnt have a problem with absorption when I brewed my 50% rye roggen, but if your batch sparging you should be able to tell after the first sparge anyway. In any case it always good to have some extra on hand.


----------



## Ross (1/2/08)

roger mellie said:


> Hey Rossco - did you use your Spunding Valve on this one?
> 
> Great name for a beer BTW.
> 
> RM




No, the valves arrived just a little too late - will do on the next one though.

Yes, Josh thought the name was good too, especially as he brewed it  The bugger is making some mighty fine beers - shame he's not allowed to drink them yet B) 

cheers Ross


----------



## NickB (1/2/08)

Hey, that's child slavery isn't it mate... 




OT: Heading down to the Lark Distillery in Hobart this arvo, after the glowing recommendation by Merc'sOwn.... Can't wait!


----------



## fixa (2/2/08)

Well she's on the boil now.

6 litres extra was spot on the money for my system/ grain bill....

I ran a f'n slow sparge, really slow. Took 1 3/4 hours to sparge it, having heard all the horror stories.. No drama's at the speed i did it.

Smells bloody beautiful, and really, really thick!!!!


----------



## Tony (2/2/08)

Awwww man...... this is tops. Im so happy i started this thread. I love to see people stepping outside the square and brewing something different, and enjoying it.

Its been almost 2 years since i started this thread........... time to do another one i think.

MHB was asking me if i wanted rye malt a while ago..... might have to get some and that wheat culture Les has offered me.

Will have to order some Rice Gulls and break out the decoction pots.

cheers


----------



## fixa (2/2/08)

Nah tony, don't use any rice gulls, just sparge really really really slow. Absolutely no drama's here with no rice hulls at all.


----------



## Tony (2/9/08)

I am planning another Roggenbier.......... with a twist.

Im not going to brew it with a Wheat weast, its going in on a belgian!

I have 3787 and i recon it will work well. fantastic flavour profile, great attenuation, very floculant, sounds perfect.

And you cant tell me some fenolic spice wont work in a Roggen!

Thinking of brewing it for the NSW Xmas case swap.

the plan is:

50% Rye malt
20% Dark wheat malt
20% Pilsner malt
8% Munich II
2% Crystal Rye

Bitter with Styrian Goldings
Late hops SAAZ.

1.070, 26 IBU, 22 EBC

Going to make and no chill 2 x 17 liter cubes of it and pitch the yeast in one, on day 4 pour the second cube in.

Might look at doing it in the next couple of weeks so it has time to mature before xmas. Belgian yeast is the oposite of wheat yeast i have found.

any comments folks?

cheers


----------



## bindi (2/9/08)

I have 3787 and i recon it will work well. fantastic flavour profile, great attenuation, very floculant, sounds perfect.


It will be fantastic Tony :icon_cheers: go for it.


----------



## Tony (2/9/08)

Thanks mate. Thats a seal of aproval like no other 

I have been toiling over the recipe for a couple of months now, It has changes consantly but today i ended up with that and it looked great. Ballances and not to over the top. I want it drinkable and enjoyable so i dropped a lot of the darker specialty malts i origionally had planned. Dont want to use too much specialty, i want the rye and dark wheat to shine.

cheers


----------



## Muggus (2/9/08)

Tony, you must be crazy! The BJCP folks will be at you with pitchforks!!!!  




ps...sounds awesome!


----------



## Tony (2/9/08)

[email protected]%K Them B) 

!!!

Bulls Head Certification Program

No rules brewing!


----------



## Stuster (2/9/08)

Muggus said:


> Tony, you must be crazy! The BJCP folks will be at you with pitchforks!!!!



Bah. Humbug. What kind of style would that be anyway, Tony? How can you brew a beer with no style. :angry: :huh: :lol: 



Now I think about it, I have some 3787. Oh, and some rye malt. Sounds like a great idea to me. Might brew something more like a rye pale ale with that yeast. Mmmmmm. Thanks for the inspiration. :super:


----------



## Tony (2/9/08)

I Call iit the Belgian Rye Dubbel

I was going dark like a proper Roggen but its not a propper roggen so i thought........mmmmmmmm might be a better beer and show off more yeast and hop character if its a bit lighter! So i dropped the caraaroma and Choc wheat i had planned.

Im very happy with the recipe and cant wait to have one in the glass.

Not looking forward to the mash though!

Only one question left

Tall wheat glass or wide mouth belgian glass ?????????


----------



## Millet Man (2/9/08)

Tony said:


> Only one question left
> 
> Tall wheat glass or wide mouth belgian glass ?????????



One of each of course. :beer: 

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## Dave86 (2/9/08)

Muggus said:


> Tony, you must be crazy! The BJCP folks will be at you with pitchforks!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No need to worry about that, they've left themselves wide open

Category 23: Specialty Beer


----------



## bindi (2/9/08)

Love it, love it :lol: does not matter what glass it's is in when done [wide for me] it will be "out there" wish I had thought of it ..... "Belgian Rye Dubbel"


----------



## Tony (2/9/08)

Only one thing that will be wide open 

:chug: 

cheers


----------



## yardy (5/9/08)

Nice one Tony, live to ryde mate :super: :lol:


----------



## Tony (20/9/08)

Well its becoming a reality right now. Its mashing away behind me. 

Just tasted some of the liquor from the recirc when i took a gravity reading and it tastes fantastic. I used 8 liters volume (1kg) of rice gulls and i have a small but consistant flow through the HERMS. I was a bit worried at the start, it just wouldnt flow but i got it going.

Final recipe in the mash was:



Belgian Rye Dubbel

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.85
Anticipated OG: 1.073 Plato: 17.66
Anticipated EBC: 24.0
Anticipated IBU: 28.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
38.9 5.00 kg. TF Pale Rye Malt UK 1.036 8
27.2 3.50 kg. IMC Pilsner Australia 1.038 3
23.3 3.00 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.037 18
7.8 1.00 kg. Rice Gulls Australia 1.000 0
2.3 0.30 kg. TF Crystal Rye UK 1.031 180
0.4 0.05 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special I Germany 1.036 850

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
48.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 9.80 26.0 45 min.
20.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 2.0 10 min.
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity


The Dark wheat/Rye combo is looking like a winner. I dropped the munich malt as the Dark Wheat will do its job in its own special soft spicy way.

Going to snap chill it in the kettle and pitch the yeast in the lot all at once. I dont want to take any chances with cubes ect with this one.

Ooooooo im excited 

cheers


----------



## Weizguy (20/9/08)

Tony said:


> Ooooooo im excited
> 
> cheers


...and I just can't hide it. Go the "Pointer Sisters!" :icon_chickcheers: 

I'm quite happy to be in that swap right now.

I should get my finger out and start a Roggen soon. Mark has some rye in stock. Any takers for a 1/2 or 1/3 bag, perhaps?
Plenty of choc chit rye too, IIRC.
Recipe thoughts, anyone? I was thinkin' of the JC's Roggen by JZ, but with W3638 yeast.

Onya, Tony. Great thread, great ideas and big pumpernickel to all. Wish I was there sipping warm wort with ya.


----------



## Tony (20/9/08)

Cooling it now..... i lost a few points to chaneling with a tight mash on the bottom. I cought it once and stopped, stired it up, recirced till clear (well no such thing as clear with a rye beer) and started again. Dropped from 80 to 75% efficiency and ended up with 1.068 cooled.

That was the origional gravity i was going to brew it to a while back but upped it a bit partly in anticipation of just this situation.

Smells great cooling down, looks typically murky and muddy and slightly viscous.

YUM 

cheers


----------



## schooey (20/9/08)

We'll have to paint your ute black and call you Hoff, aka 'The Knight Rye-der'


----------



## Tony (20/9/08)

schooey said:


> We'll have to paint your ute black and call you Hoff, aka 'The Knight Rye-der'



I used to love that show!

My brother as a kid even named his pet goldfish "KIT" :lol: 

I think you just found the official name for this beer mate (if you dont mind of course  )

The Knight Rye-der

I like it.

Should be fun playing around with making a label for it...... if i can be bothered.

cheers

PS........ Les, i will be in half or 1/3 of a bag of rye if you want.


----------



## schooey (20/9/08)

:lol:

Mate, with your brewery, I thought Bull Rye-der would be more appropriate..


----------



## Tony (20/9/08)

Planning on developing a Rye pale ale for the keg as a quaffer with 10 to 15% rye in it.

The Bull Rye-der is perfect for that!

your the ideas man today mate  I love it!

Just ran a bit into a small jar to taste while i was filling the fermenter. Its amazing. It has a texture in the mouth like a soft warm marsmellow. It feels like more than a liquid. but its light and delicate. THis is going to be tops when its done.

cheers


----------



## choppadoo (22/9/08)

I brewed something similar to Tonys "Knight Rye-der" on the weekend, bit more of a belgian pale though i guess. Just wanted to see what using a variety of different grains without specialty or crystal malts would produce.

20% Rye Malt
30% Wheat malt
5% Oats
45% Pilsner Malt.
25IBUs with tettnang @ 60mins
OG 1059
Mashed @ 65C
Pitched Belgian Ardennes 3522 yeast @ 19C

Should be an interesting drop with the spicy rye malt, spicy german hops and spicy belgian yeast.
I've never used rye malt before, so I'd like to hear what people have to say about this recipe, or how it might turn out.

Cheers,
Chops


----------



## yardy (22/9/08)

choppadoo said:


> *Should be an interesting drop with the spicy rye malt, spicy german hops and spicy belgian yeast.
> I've never used rye malt before, so I'd like to hear what people have to say about this recipe, or how it might turn out.
> 
> Cheers,
> ...



Gday Chops,

Rye & Wheat is an awesome combo imo, I've done quite a few similar to your recipe but without the oats, I normally run with about 35 to 40 % Rye, the Tett will compliment it nicely, can't comment on the yeast though, never tried it.
I did do JZ's Roggen with T-58 and i have to say it was my least favourite.

Cheers
Yard


----------



## reviled (16/10/08)

Tony said:


> I am planning another Roggenbier.......... with a twist.
> 
> Im not going to brew it with a Wheat weast, its going in on a belgian!
> 
> ...




Can I ask what the benifit is of only pitching yeast on one cube initially?


----------



## Dave86 (16/10/08)

Reviled, I'm pretty sure the idea is (someone correct if I'm wrong) simply to get the pitching rate up. ie: you need less yeast for 17L as you do for 34L. By the time the second cube goes in, you should have more yeast on the go


----------



## muckanic (11/11/08)

Hi folks

First post, and I thought I might share some experiences with my first roggenbier recently.

The grist was 50% Franklin, 50% rye malt (unknown variety), shooting for an OG of 45-50. I didn't want any coloured malts in there so that I could get a handle on the contribution of the rye. Similarly, I didn't want to use a weizen yeast, so opted for a culture from Little Elf's witbier.

[heresy]I mash in at room temperature for 3 hours, in order to hydrate the goods[\heresy]. After that, I used wheat beer steps of 44-55-65. I noticed things started to get interesting at the proteolysis stage, as the mash tasted unusually tangy. Sure enough, the pH was down in the 4's. From my experience, the mash hadn't spent long enough in the 30-50C range for it to be a lactic effect, plus I have tended to find in the past that unmalted goods have a much higher bacterial count. Hence, I am assuming that the acidity was largely due to the action of phytase, which is something I have not encountered before with various combinations of Oz malts and other stuff. Could be that the rye malt was relatively lightly kilned? Before noticing the acidity, I had used a water treatment of 2:1 CaSO4:MgSO4 purely out of habit, and wound up having to add 1t of CaCO3 just prior to the 65C rest in order to get the pH up above 5. So the protein rest was conducted quite acidically; in fact, it was probably closer to the theoretical optimum than it would normally be.

The upshot is that sparging wasn't a problem at all - that happened later.  I would speculate that I could have handled a 100% rye mash if I had wanted to. The sweet wort was still yellow and viscous going into the boiler, as others have observed. My problem is that the boiler employs an immersion element which managed to overheat with all the viscosity, which is a first. An overheat switch cut in, but not before some minor scorching had occurred. Chalk that one up to experience.

On a slightly different topic, I noticed that a couple of folks in this thread had problems with high final gravities, and were blaming the usual suspects of yeast, mashing regime, ferment temperature, etc. To that I would add don't overlook wort nutrition, odd as it might sound in an all-grain brew. Pro brewers take free amino nitrogen, for instance, extremely seriously. Yeah I know, we tend not to use undermodified malts in Oz, but I can confirm that I have cured stuck ferments that shouldn't have stuck with a dose of nutrient salts (essentially a combo of ammonium, vit B and Mg). In fact, I am now starting to wonder whether there are any reasons not to use torula yeast or wheatgerm as an organic nutrient supplement in all brews, just in case. Another thing that seems to work as a cure is dry hopping; something I have always attributed to a kind of mechanical rousing effect, but there could possibly be a nutritional angle there as well.


----------



## yardy (11/11/08)

muckanic said:


> *The upshot is that sparging wasn't a problem at all - that happened later.  I would speculate that I could have handled a 100% rye mash if I had wanted to.
> *



let us know how that one goes :icon_cheers: 

cheers


----------



## Ross (23/7/09)

Just kegged my 4th Roggenbier, as per the recipe below. This one was the sparge from hell, despite using less rye than in some earlier recipes.
I was ready for the dramas, but this one was so oily, even after scrapping the grain away from the perorated false bottom, the liquid wouldn't drain through it!!! I ended up having to do a full volume sparge heated to 90c to get it to flow. The final beer tates great, but I cant believe its supposed to have this oily a character? - The BJCP guidelines certainly don't mention it. My previous versions have had a beautiful silkiness, this is more like a creamy milkshake.
Is there a mash rest that will reduce this final gummyness & has anyone tried it?

Roggenbier IV 
Roggenbier (German Rye Beer) 

Type: All Grain
Date: 12/07/2009 
Batch Size: 27.00 L
Boil Size: 35.31 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Rye Malt (weyermann) (5.0 EBC) Grain 56.26 % 
1.25 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (25.0 EBC) Grain 17.58 % 
1.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 14.06 % 
0.40 kg Biscuit Malt (55.0 EBC) Grain 5.63 % 
0.40 kg Crystal Rye Malt (Bairds) (157.6 EBC) Grain 5.63 % 
0.06 kg Carafa II (1150.0 EBC) Grain 0.84 % 
30.00 gm Saaz [3.60 %] (80 min) Hops 10.4 IBU 
50.00 gm Saaz [3.60 %] (20 min) Hops 10.0 IBU 
0.50 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat 

Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.08 % 
Bitterness: 20.4 IBU Calories: 489 cal/l 
Est Color: 32.1 EBC 


Cheers Ross


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/09)

40 beta glucan rest would help Ross.



> A mash rest at 104 F or 40 C activates glucanase , which breaks down gummy beta-glucans in the mash, making the sugars flow out more freely later in the process.




From here

Andrew


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## Ross (23/7/09)

Thanks Andrew, that was the one i was thinking of. 
Will it actually cut down the body of the final beer though, or does it just help the sugars flow more easily in the mash, as it's the final beer that needs thinning?


cheers Ross


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## AndrewQLD (23/7/09)

Have a look here Ross, byo
Scroll down the page a bit there's a section on beta glucan rest, by the sounds of things it will thin out the beer as well.


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## muckanic (23/7/09)

Ross said:


> Will it actually cut down the body of the final beer though, or does it just help the sugars flow more easily in the mash, as it's the final beer that needs thinning?



I have my doubts how much soluble beta-glucan (as distinct from soluble protein) actually makes it into the final brew, after allowing for any hydrolysis during fermentation, precipitation, etc. That roggenbier I described in #106 is not especially viscous in the glass despite being quite viscous in the boiler. (For the record, it was Weyermann rye malt and Wicked Elf yeast). This contrasts with other reports of brews that received no protein rest and apparently drink like liquid treacle. 

So, I reckon a protein rest is enough to solve the sparging problem, any base pils malt will do, but the trade-off is less final body. I would speculate that if I had used Galaxy instead of Franklin malt with the same 40C-ish rest that I may have dodged my boiler problems with the yellow oil. Of course, a lower density electric element might not have been a bad idea either! I am assuming here that neither Franklin nor Weyermann rye malt contain significant glucanase enzymes. Galaxy certainly behaves differently. The mash liquifies and sweetens at 40C, a full 10C below where I am used to seeing that occur. The pH in untreated soft water also drops from 5.5 to closer to 5.0.


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## Ross (23/7/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Have a look here Ross, byo
> Scroll down the page a bit there's a section on beta glucan rest, by the sounds of things it will thin out the beer as well.




thanks Andrew - looks like it may be the answer  

cheers Ross


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## yardy (13/2/10)

been awhile since i had a roggen on tap, forgot just how good they are  

Floggen ya Roggen

2.500 Rye
1.600 Munich
1.400 Pils
0.150 Carared
0.150 Crystal
0.080 Carafa ll

30gm Australian Tettnang @ 60
15gm Australian Tettnang @ 10

K-97 @ 20*C








c'mon roggen lovers, post your recipes up

cheers


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## Tony (13/2/10)

Its the next brew on the list. We have a Wheat beer challenge on for the next club meet here but i just finnished a keg of wheat beer. Roggen it is just for something different 

Will post the recipe up on here when i decide on it. Still have to check how much Rye i have.


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## Tony (20/2/10)

Just ran this through the mill. Gunna mash it tomorrow morning. 

Making it for the new hunter brew club meet next month. The challenge was a Wheat but i want more 

Im going a double decoction to really make it hard to sparge...... nothing like break in a clag glue mash!

wish me luck!

And 54 liters........... i will have about 6 inches of head space.......... im gunna need a blow off tube on this one!

Oh...... yardy.......... i cant find the pack of K-97, but i do have 3068 so this it is 

cheers







Roggenbier

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.15
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.28
Anticipated EBC: 30.1
Anticipated IBU: 16.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.2 5.00 kg. Pale Rye Malt 1.034 8
28.8 3.50 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.037 18
24.7 3.00 kg. Weyermann Bohemien Pils GErmany 1.038 4
2.5 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
1.6 0.20 kg. Crystal Rye 1.031 210
1.2 0.15 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1100


Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 14.7 45 min.
20.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 2.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 6.30 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen


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## mika (20/2/10)

Tony said:


> .....
> 2.5 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
> ....



So what's with this stuff Tony ? As in, what's it do for the beer ?


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## Tony (20/2/10)

Its very similar to caraaroma.......... just 200EBC. ITs deeply malty, less sweet than a crystal, but not as dry as caraamber.

Id call it a pale caraaroma. very nice stuff.

i wanted to use 500g of crystal rye but only had 200g in stock. This was the next malt in line.

cheers

Edit.......... im on my 2nd 1kg bag...... when this one is gone im getting this stuff in 5kg lots! I love it.


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## BrenosBrews (20/2/10)

mika said:


> So what's with this stuff Tony ? As in, what's it do for the beer ?



Just wanted to add my seconding of Carabohemian malt. I've used it in a couple of American Red Ales so far and it's been great. Malty without being too sweet just like Tony said. An awesome specialty malt.


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## goomboogo (21/2/10)

mika said:


> So what's with this stuff Tony ? As in, what's it do for the beer ?



It's versatile stuff. I've got 3% carabohemian and 3% caraamber in a Belgian Pale that's on tap at the moment. I'd go with Tony's description. It's definitely added nice background support in this beer.


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## yardy (21/2/10)

Roggenbier

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.15
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.28
Anticipated EBC: 30.1
Anticipated IBU: 16.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.2 5.00 kg. Pale Rye Malt 1.034 8
28.8 3.50 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.037 18
24.7 3.00 kg. Weyermann Bohemien Pils GErmany 1.038 4
2.5 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
1.6 0.20 kg. Crystal Rye 1.031 210
1.2 0.15 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1100


Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 14.7 45 min.
20.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 2.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 6.30 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen



looks a nice recipe Tony, I'm looking forward to trying some crystal rye in the next roggen, perhaps some carabo as well, just enjoying a roggen from my 500ml aventinus btw :icon_drool2: 

cheers

Dave


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## Tony (23/2/10)

mmmm 1.054 

half the rye didnt crack in the mill and got 60% efficiency........... 1.042 :angry: 

Worst brew day i have had ever. It flowed like i was mashing water!

Just wrong

Anyway..... its spewing 3068 out the blow off tube, making a big mess.

I have nicknamed it the Roggenfuckedbier 

gunna give a American Rye IPA a go next...... will crack the stuff twice next time.

cheers


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## drsmurto (24/2/10)

I run the rye through on a very fine setting (marga) separately.

Gets it crushed up nice and fine. Since i am using rice gulls anyway turning it to near dust doesn't matter. i want every last but if rye to make it into the final product.

And i can highly recommend Boilerboys Amercian Rye IPA that got a 1st in AABC. Inspired me to go rye and now i am addicted to the stuff.

Have bookmarked this thread as i will have a 3638 yeastcake from a dunkelweizen so a roggen is on the cards. Got some crystal rye now so i am set.


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## Tony (25/2/10)

DrSmurto said:


> And i can highly recommend Boilerboys Amercian Rye IPA that got a 1st in AABC. Inspired me to go rye and now i am addicted to the stuff.



Recipe?


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## drsmurto (26/2/10)

Tony said:


> Recipe?



PM Boilerboy for it. I don't have it on me but its based on this one - Link


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