# Bavarian Weissbier Tips



## Hpal (3/7/17)

Guys, I'm having another crack at a Bavarian Weissbier (such as Schofferhofer, Franziskaner etc) and to date I haven't been able to get it just how I like it, so I need your help!
I like it a slightly leaning toward banana, cloudy, and a full mouthfeel. I do BIAB and usually no chill. I don't make water additions but my water is pretty good and balanced.
I was thinking of trying Mangrove Jacks M20 yeast.

What are people's thought on things such as:

Yeast strain
Ferment temp
Mash schedule
Recipe,grain and hop bill, colour, IBU
Oxygen levels for fermentation (stressing yeast a bit to produce esters)
Anything else I've forgotten
Thanks!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (3/7/17)

Go 3068 yeast.

MJ are IMO the best dried yeast for less than your standard ales and lagers but there are beers where wet is best.

I found the same applied to the myriad of dried Saison yeasts. Only when I used the wet one did it hit the spot.

If the cost per brew is an issue, look up let's freeze some yeast thread and learn about splitting batches and starters. You can get your cost per batch down to $1-2.


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## warra48 (3/7/17)

The last batch I did was a Hefeweizen, brewed with WY3068.
I followed the advice from this article, and it turned out the best Hefeweizen I've brewed for about 6 or 7 years, after multiple less than stellar results.

http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/


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## Hpal (3/7/17)

That's just the article I was reading this morning! My previous batches were lacking something but I just need to find out what I'm not doing right.


warra48 said:


> The last batch I did was a Hefeweizen, brewed with WY3068.
> I followed the advice from this article, and it turned out the best Hefeweizen I've brewed for about 6 or 7 years, after multiple less than stellar results.
> 
> http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/


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## Hpal (3/7/17)

warra48 said:


> The last batch I did was a Hefeweizen, brewed with WY3068.
> I followed the advice from this article, and it turned out the best Hefeweizen I've brewed for about 6 or 7 years, after multiple less than stellar results.
> 
> http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/


Thanks Warra ta,
Would you be willing to share your recipe and technique? Thanks


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## Adr_0 (3/7/17)

warra48 said:


> The last batch I did was a Hefeweizen, brewed with WY3068.
> I followed the advice from this article, and it turned out the best Hefeweizen I've brewed for about 6 or 7 years, after multiple less than stellar results.
> 
> http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/



That's an awesome article, thanks for the post! I've heard about the extra sweep through the 45°C range to break down maltose into glucose. I also wondered if something like dextrose (ie glucose) would do the trick?


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## warra48 (3/7/17)

Here it is. You could probably drop the Carawheat, in fact, I will for my next batch. The mash steps look funny, because I don't use BeerSmith2 for my volumes. After 10+ years on my system I don't need to be told how much water to add.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 125 Elliot's Hefeweizen
Brewer: Robert
Asst Brewer:
Style: Weizen/Weissbier (Wheat Beer)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 35.00 l
Post Boil Volume: 27.50 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l
Bottling Volume: 25.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 7.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 14.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 91.8 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
3.2 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 65.3 % 
1.6 kg Premium Pilsner (2.5 EBC) Grain 2 32.7 % 
0.1 kg Carawheat (Weyermann) (98.5 EBC) Grain 3 2.0 % 
34.0 g Tettnang (Tettnang Tettnager) [4.00 %] - Hop 4 14.0 IBUs 
5.00 g Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 5 - 
1.0 pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast 6 - 


Mash Schedule: My 3 step Hefeweizen Mash
Total Grain Weight: 4.9 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time 
Protein Error: Infusion temperature 55.0 C 10 min 
Maltose Add 0.00 l of water at 63.0 63.0 C 45 min 
Saccharification Add 0.00 l of water at 72.0 72.0 C 30 min 

Sparge: Batch sparged with mashout at 78ºC for first run off, and 2nd batch sparge
Notes:
------
Mashed 55ºC 10 minutes
Stepped 63ºC 45 minutes
Stepped 72ºC 30 minutes

Pitched a starter of WY3068
Batch not aerated


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## Hpal (6/11/17)

An update, finally had a crack at the Hefe on Friday, very similar recipe and mash steps to above. It's nearing FG now and smells amazing, with a bit of luck I think I've got over the line, but time will tell.


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## Osangar (22/2/21)

Is anyone into brewing hefeweizens these days ? Ive been obsessed with them lately. Had a few good ones, and some learning experiences. Happy to share if of interest


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## Hangover68 (23/2/21)

Osangar said:


> Is anyone into brewing hefeweizens these days ? Ive been obsessed with them lately. Had a few good ones, and some learning experiences. Happy to share if of interest



I've brewed 2, 1st was a 50/50 wheat/pilsner, 2nd was a 60/40 pale malt/wheat.
Both using Hallertau original and WB06 yeast., will be brewing another soon.


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## Osangar (23/2/21)

Hangover68 said:


> I've brewed 2, 1st was a 50/50 wheat/pilsner, 2nd was a 60/40 pale malt/wheat.
> Both using Hallertau original and WB06 yeast., will be brewing another soon.



I'm currently brewing one with 20% vienna and 20% pilsner with the rest wheat; so far it looks the part. im using Schneider weisse yeast and hallertau hops to 10ibu


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## Doctormcbrewdle (10/4/21)

I've brewed lots of wheat beers over the years and it's a very tricky style to get right despite the myths about it being simple.

Things that haven't worked:
Dried yeast. No! Please don't.

Pils' and wheat grist. Always too watery (most EU wheat's have a more complex grist than this, look at the EBC)

What has worked:
Liquid yeast like WLP-300, you'll never get there with WB-06 and more complex grists. Namingly 40/60 wheat/Munich, or melanoidin with a Pils'/wheat. This is where I come out with a full flavoured Maisel's type weissbier and colour is usually spot on. I couldn't taste a difference between the bottled commercial version and mine apart from oxidation in the bottled version

I've recently made a couple more lighter experimental versions but am very unimpressed. They were 15-20% Munich, Pils' and wheat'. Yuck

All the best with it but with the right yeast and malt grist it actually is a relatively easy one to brew


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## Osangar (20/4/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I've brewed lots of wheat beers over the years and it's a very tricky style to get right despite the myths about it being simple.
> 
> Things that haven't worked:
> Dried yeast. No! Please don't.
> ...





hey Doc; thanks for your tips

i have had some (only 2) joy with the Munich Classic dry yeast, but my best results have been with the 3068, and the Schneider yeast. 
interesting wheat to barley grain ratio. if im reading your post correctly, are you saying the higher the wheat the less you like the beer taste and have settled for 40% ?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (21/4/21)

Osangar said:


> hey Doc; thanks for your tips
> 
> i have had some (only 2) joy with the Munich Classic dry yeast, but my best results have been with the 3068, and the Schneider yeast.
> interesting wheat to barley grain ratio. if im reading your post correctly, are you saying the higher the wheat the less you like the beer taste and have settled for 40% ?



Yes mate, as strange as it may sound.

Wheat to me tastes like nothing, I've always had major success using a heavy Munich grist  but yes, if you start with a 50/50 wheat/Munich schedule I'm sure you'll be very impressed


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## keine_ahnung (16/5/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Yes mate, as strange as it may sound.
> 
> Wheat to me tastes like nothing, I've always had major success using a heavy Munich grist  but yes, if you start with a 50/50 wheat/Munich schedule I'm sure you'll be very impressed



Is possibly a personal preference/taste thing (i.e. not so much liking the taste of wheat).... however, if you actually want it to be representative of a Bavarian Weissbier (as it's called in the south, rather than "Hefeweizen"), the malt bill must consist of at least 50% wheat. By law.
Fun fact


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## voskar (18/5/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I've brewed lots of wheat beers over the years and it's a very tricky style to get right despite the myths about it being simple.
> 
> Things that haven't worked:
> Dried yeast. No! Please don't.
> ...



I have been trying for a long time to make a decent Hefe.
Next time I try your recommended 40/60 wheat/Munich combo.
Question: what temperature do ferment at ?

Thanks


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## TheAussieBrewer (18/5/21)

I keep going back to this Hefewezen recipe of mine and it's always a winner. I like more clove so I ferment WLP300 at 17⁰, also throw in a little Aurora Malt.









Brewfather


Powerful and easy to use tool for your brewing needs




share.brewfather.app


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## Osangar (18/5/21)

TheAussieBrewer said:


> I keep going back to this Hefewezen recipe of mine and it's always a winner. I like more clove so I ferment WLP300 at 17⁰, also throw in a little Aurora Malt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's the clove for me also, I prefer it to the banana flavour. a point much debated with Germans. I've sat through a few hours of heated debate as to the better between some mates from southern Germany.


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## Osangar (18/5/21)

on yeast - has anyone tried the WLP351 - I just ordered 2 packs to give it a go. keen to head towards the Schneider Weisse flavour profile in the next batch I make.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (18/5/21)

I've used the WLP 351 many times, produces less banana than WLP 300 and has slightly better attenuation, 82% vs 80%


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## Osangar (19/5/21)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I've used the WLP 351 many times, produces less banana than WLP 300 and has slightly better attenuation, 82% vs 80%



interesting

ill report back when it arrives and I brew with it.


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## Osangar (22/6/21)

found a hack that turned out great. 

after my last weizen, I saved the yeast slurry; then repitched it into a dampfbier made from 4kg Munich 2 (weyermann) and 1 kg vienna, 10IBU hops at 40min - dam, what a great result. one to keep in the rotation from now on.


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## Osangar (29/7/21)

Osangar said:


> interesting
> 
> ill report back when it arrives and I brew with it.




ok, so my WLP351yeast experiment is about halfway though. fermentation starting at 18, then raise to 22, then back to 18 in the primary; followed by the bottle at 18 for a week

the beer has nothing interesting about it at all. it's a good beer, but not 'amazing' like Schneider yeast, or 3068. 

all in all, not a yeast I will buy again.


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## TheAussieBrewer (29/7/21)

Osangar said:


> ok, so my WLP351yeast experiment is about halfway though. fermentation starting at 18, then raise to 22, then back to 18 in the primary; followed by the bottle at 18 for a week
> 
> the beer has nothing interesting about it at all. it's a good beer, but not 'amazing' like Schneider yeast, or 3068.
> 
> all in all, not a yeast I will buy again.


I found the same thing when I trialed it when I couldn't get WLP300. I save a few vials of yeast and make a starter for the next Hefe brew.


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## Osangar (29/7/21)

i suspect it may be reasonable in a dampfbier


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## Cloud Surfer (15/8/21)

Has anyone experimented with dextrose additions in their weissbier? It adds to the banana character. But on the flip side you get a slightly lower FG. I’m drinking my Hefe alongside the Weihenstephaner I’ve tried copying, and I like the fuller mouthfeel from the Weihenstephaner.

I used 3% dextrose, but I might reduce that to 2% and up the fermentation temperature 1C next time.

For sure the Weihenstephaner 14IBU is a lot less than my 14IBU. Mine has detectable bitterness that’s absent in the Weihenstephaner. I’ll aim for 10IBU next time which should be a better match.


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## MHB (15/8/21)

One of my favourite beers
Having a look at the website from Weihenstephan they say, OG 12.7oP or 1.0508 (1.051), alcohol 5.7% from which we can deduce an FG of 1.0103 (well if you can measure the 0.0003) call it 1.010

Apparent attenuation is 79.7% (call it 80%) which is a bit higher than you would expect from say W 3068. Assuming your wort isn’t super fermentable adding a bit (<5%) of dextrose shouldn’t have much effect on where the beer pulls up, it will have a big effect on the banana aroma/flavour given you don’t overpitch or brew way too cool.

I would be tempted to stay at or around 14 IBU, go easy on the Sulphate if you are adding any and get your bitterness from one of the noble hops, My go to is Hallertau Mittlefrüh, the same bitterness from a low alpha hop is always more restrained than from a higher alpha verity like say Magnum or Northern Brewer. A longer boil say 90 minutes will give the beer a bit fuller palate and help soften the hop character to.

Mark
Here is the original from where came the talk about adding glucose (dextrose)
m


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (15/8/21)

Thanks for putting that linkup again Mark, I did the exact decoction mash they describe at the end with the hope of increasing banana flavor, I fermented with Wyeast 3068 at 20 C and have the cloviest hef I have ever made started at 1.047, finished at 1.010 but not a hint of banana, any ideas why, is 20 to low a temp. for any banana?


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## MHB (15/8/21)

Too much yeast kills banana!
That’s about the only thing that comes to mind. To get more Banana you should be pitching at the low end of the recommended ale range (0.4-1.0M cells/mL/oP). A lot of home brewers translate this to mean underpitching which it isn’t. You could go a bit hotter 22-23oC.
I like to do this one with Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner and German Wheat around 50/50, sometimes it’s a banana bomb sometimes a bit bland. This about the only beer I brew where the outcome is a bit random and I'll be buggered if I know why, just a temperamental yeast (maybe).
Mark

Big ups for doing that decoction, I had a chat with Dr. Bertram Sacher, and asked him, if he wasn’t brewing under the Reinheitsgebot would he just ad glucose and got back a ja in bold.
M


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## Osangar (15/8/21)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Has anyone experimented with dextrose additions in their weissbier? It adds to the banana character. But on the flip side you get a slightly lower FG. I’m drinking my Hefe alongside the Weihenstephaner I’ve tried copying, and I like the fuller mouthfeel from the Weihenstephaner.
> 
> I used 3% dextrose, but I might reduce that to 2% and up the fermentation temperature 1C next time.
> 
> For sure the Weihenstephaner 14IBU is a lot less than my 14IBU. Mine has detectable bitterness that’s absent in the Weihenstephaner. I’ll aim for 10IBU next time which should be a better match.



not sure about this one. dextrose is a sugar, and one that would be eaten by the yeast in the fermentation process; I can't see how this would have an impact on the yeast creating the banana (or clove if your using Schneider yeast). pitch rate, temp variation during fermentation, pitch temp, will have the greatest impact on the yeast ability to produce banana. I also read that PH has a major factor as well, a factor in watching more and more with my weizen beers. . 

do you think that dextrin has had an effect on the yeast producing these flavours ?


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## MHB (15/8/21)

Without Glucose (dextrose) yeast will follow a different pathway and it cant make isoamyl acetate.
The whole point of adding Glucose is to send the yeast down the banana pathway.
True, all the other factors you mentiond are important, but no glucose no banana.
Dextrins would be a whole other conversation.
Mark


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## Osangar (15/8/21)

[/QUOTE]


MHB said:


> Without Glucose (dextrose) yeast will follow a different pathway and it cant make isoamyl acetate.
> The whole point of adding Glucose is to send the yeast down the banana pathway.
> True,all the other factors you mentiond are important, but no glucose no banana.
> Dextrins would be a whole other conversation.
> Mark



fascinating; I've never come across this before.
ill add it to my list of potentials to try. although I'm getting terrific banana flavour in mine already (for 3068) and great clove (for Schneider) but more flavour can't hurt


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## MHB (15/8/21)

There is a small amount of Glucose in any wort, the above is one way to get more
Here is a good read 
Brewing Bavarian Weissbier
Lots of good info
Mark


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (16/8/21)

MHB said:


> Too much yeast kills banana!
> That’s about the only thing that comes to mind. To get more Banana you should be pitching at the low end of the recommended ale range (0.4-1.0M cells/mL/oP). A lot of home brewers translate this to mean underpitching which it isn’t. You could go a bit hotter 22-23oC.
> I like to do this one with Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner and German Wheat around 50/50, sometimes it’s a banana bomb sometimes a bit bland. This about the only beer I brew where the outcome is a bit random and I'll be buggered if I know why, just a temperamental yeast (maybe).
> Mark
> ...


Checked my records this morning, looks like I made a 3 L starter for a 20l batch, I'll half that next time, do you think that will be small enough?

I've done a lot of decoctions this year, hefs get two and pilsners three, the joy in home brewing for me is the method as much as the result and I do enjoy my beer. I wanted to try this one as it's a bit strange because it doesn't boil the decoction, I presume all it does is create more glucose in the wort, rather than enhance malt flavor, it would be simpler to just add glucose but I like the idea of the Reinheitsgebot, it's a bit like brewing to style guidelines, it adds direction to my brewing


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## MHB (16/8/21)

Agreed, done decoctions in the past and they are interesting if time consuming.

In this case, the decoction forms Maltose through Beta Amylase activity, then is returned to the main mash, where Maltase converts Maltose into 2 Glucose. Maltase is fully denatured over ~45oC so it rarely gets a play as it is denatured mostly by the time people mash in.
I have been thinking about another way to get to the same place.
If you mashed in somewhere in the 35-40oC range, ideally at a 6pH (optimum for maltase) and allowed it to sit for 12 hours or so. There should be enough activity from both the Amylases to make some maltose for the Maltase to chew on. Bit like the old overnight digestion brewing schedule.
From there just ramp to your normal mash regieme. Having a Braumeister will make this pretty easy. Set it in manual mode, mash in and leave overnight, in the morning adjust the pH and run your programmed mash.
Be interesting to see how much goes into solution during the overnight digestion, and of course how much glucose there is in the wort. Now I just need a simple way to measure glucose.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (18/8/21)

MHB said:


> One of my favourite beers
> Having a look at the website from Weihenstephan they say, OG 12.7oP or 1.0508 (1.051), alcohol 5.7% from which we can deduce an FG of 1.0103 (well if you can measure the 0.0003) call it 1.010
> 
> Apparent attenuation is 79.7% (call it 80%) which is a bit higher than you would expect from say W 3068. Assuming your wort isn’t super fermentable adding a bit (<5%) of dextrose shouldn’t have much effect on where the beer pulls up, it will have a big effect on the banana aroma/flavour given you don’t overpitch or brew way too cool.


I just measured the FG of Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier and got 1.010. At 5.4% ABV, that’s an OG of 1.051. Exactly the numbers you have. That was a surprise to me as it has the mouthfeel of a slightly higher gravity beer.

While my Weissbier is very nice, I would still like to get it closer to the Weihenstephaner, so I’ll brew clone #2 in a few weeks with a few tweaks to the first attempt.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (10/10/21)

MHB said:


> Agreed, done decoctions in the past and they are interesting if time consuming.
> 
> In this case, the decoction forms Maltose through Beta Amylase activity, then is returned to the main mash, where Maltase converts Maltose into 2 Glucose. Maltase is fully denatured over ~45oC so it rarely gets a play as it is denatured mostly by the time people mash in.
> I have been thinking about another way to get to the same place.
> ...


OK I've brewed my hef again with the single decoction, added only 500ml of my starter this time, it still started fermenting within 8 hours but the fridge smelt like it was full of bananas, samples have a good amount of banana. Fermentation temperature was 22. OG 1.048 FG 1.010.

Going to bottle today, will use some left over wort and invert some sugar to make up to the required amount as it is supposedly glucose and fructose. It should be at its peak for my Bavarian breakfast on Melbourne cup day.

I'll have to try the overnight method, how close to 45 can you go before the maltase starts to denature?


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## me14 (14/11/21)

Thanks guys. Just tapped a weiss made using tips here. My previous/first attempt last year was underwhelming, barely any banana and no body but looking back I overpitched for sure.
This one is perfect. Did a partial mash (single infusion) with roughly 40% from LME and 5% from dextrose pitching a single pack of W3068 into 20L of wort. I was hoping the LME would give it a bit of body and also help overcome capacity issues as I usually brew to fill a 9.5L corny. As for the banana flavour, the changes from first batch were the pitch rate & dextrose so one or both of those has really fixed that.


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## GrumpyPaul (15/11/21)

there used to be a guy on here Les the @Weizguy who liked his wheat beers - dont think he is around so much any more.

He used to recommend a step mash profile. 

Some good tips in this thread Tips for improving a wheat beer


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## duncbrewer (16/11/21)

MHB said:


> Now I just need a simple way to measure glucose.
> Mark


Find a diabetic and use their testing kit on a wort sample, should work.


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## Westheimer (16/11/21)

This is a German recipe that I translated a few years ago. It's my go to Hefeweizen that I don't like to run out of.
It's also by far the most popular one on the the German recipe site.
Give it a go and let me know what you think. If you like maximum banana flavours, ferment at 22°C, otherwise 20°C will give a more balanced flavour with clove coming through as well.
Cheers









Brewfather


Powerful and easy to use tool for your brewing needs




share.brewfather.app


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## Osangar (26/11/21)

GrumpyPaul said:


> there used to be a guy on here Les the @Weizguy who liked his wheat beers - dont think he is around so much any more.
> 
> He used to recommend a step mash profile.
> 
> Some good tips in this thread Tips for improving a wheat beer



step mash for the winner for me - there is no replacement, especially if its wyermann malts being used.


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## Osangar (26/11/21)

I'm obsessed with Weizen; both white and dark. there is so much to enjoy with malt and yeast flavours. and (as an older chap) it's nice to brew a tasty full flavour beer that can be made a bit lower in ABV (if you like). my own go from around 5 and down to 4. perhaps not to so ABV 

I enjoy the 'clove' flavours of Schneider yeast and if you can't be arsed growing some from a bottle, the wlp351 is close (as in the same ballpark) but not right on the mark; get Schneider yeast it is a winner and lasts ages. As for banana the classic 3068/300 yeast is the go, also the Munich classic dry yeast is a winner; but with each starting at 18, going to 20 gives the best result. I've tried each many times and the 3068 is the best but the others are really close 

interestingly - as I save yeast as a slurry and re-pitch, I've not found pitch rates a factor. PH is, and I'm blessed to have soft water in Singapore so it's a good start for me. 

my variations to date that result in the best beer are - step mash (including a dough in) it takes ages but the results are impressive. fermentation temp variation and ph.


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