# Saison Recipe Critique Please



## rwmingis (11/1/09)

Hi All,

And for my next trick.... I intend to make a Saison. I found a recipe here which apparently won best of show. I've had to tweak it a bit to allow for ingredients that I can find in Oz. See the attached PDF for the recipe. Below's a summary of the changes:

1. Belgian Pilsner --> Weyermann Pilsner  (hardly worth mentioning I think)
2. Belgian Aromatic --> Melanoiden
3. *Addition of 0.5 kg of Candi Sugar.* Have always wanted to try making my own and using it, so have snuck it into the recipe. I've backed off on the other malts to allow for this. I've kept the malt ratios relative to each other the same, even though the overall ratios do change (relative to total grain/sugar bill)
4. I intend on adding a bit of *Coriander seed*, just to try it. I only want to put enough so that I can just taste it, I know it's easy to go overboard. Any ideas on amount?

I realise this will take a lot of work to ferment, which is why I add the Candi sugar after a few days so that the yeast get a change to get the hard work out of the way first. Speaking of yeast, why is it that when using the rated attenuation (average of high and low), I end up with such a high FG. Usually I find I beat the best attenuation by about 5% or so. Needless to say 1.019 is really high. I realise it's a bit more than it would be because the candi sugar will fully ferment meaning the FG will be lower. I suspect it will go down to 1.014

Anyway, I would love to hear comments, critiques, etc. I also want to be sure also that I am not using too much Vienna or Munich, so any comments along those lines would also be appreciated. Best get the mistakes out now before I find out the hard way.

Cheers! :icon_cheers: 

Rob 

View attachment Summer_Saison.pdf


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## rwmingis (13/1/09)

Bump!


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## mika (13/1/09)

In the 'Flavour of the week' sub-forum there will be a thread on Saison, have a look there and research the recipe database, think it would help.
Recipe looks mostly fine, the Candi sugar is a bit out of place but it should work out fine. Personally I'd probably drop the Munich out and replace it with Wheat malt, but what you've got will work.
I'd mash lower, you really want these to finish quite dry. I'd be annoyed if it didn't get under 1010 and the closer to 1006 the better.
Coriander is a bit of a cheat's way of getting the flavours. I'd go for ~20g @ 5mins before end of boil. Get the seeds realtively fresh and crush them up (mortar and pestle) before adding.


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## Aaron (13/1/09)

Check out this recipe by Kai:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=208

This was one of the best beers I have ever had.


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## rwmingis (13/1/09)

Hi Mika,

Thanks for the info. Strange, the google search on the forums didn't turn up the Saison Style of the week thread. Regardless will read it through.

I put the candi sugar in as I want to reproduce the slight funkiness found in Silly Saison. I thought the mash temp was a bit high too, will drop to say 64? So Coriander is the cheat's way, what's the hard way?

Rob


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## mika (13/1/09)

Yeast, yeast and yeast. All the flavours in a Saison are meant to be from the yeast. Making it happen is another story though....


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## mika (13/1/09)

Kai's recipe looks spot on, I can't see Belgian Candi sugar adding funkiness, it will make the recipe a little drier (what you need) and perhaps add a slight cidery note, none of it a bad thing, but I'd be saving it for a Belgian and just throwing in Table Sugar if you wanted to.

But hey, I'm just going off the style guidelines and what I've read and tasted, the one Saison I've brewed is still fermenting...frickin' DuPont yeast <_<


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## Aaron (13/1/09)

mika said:


> Kai's recipe looks spot on



It is awesome. I have had DuPont, Regal and a few other Saisons. Given the choice I would pick Kai's.


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## kabooby (13/1/09)

I am with Mika on this, Saisons need to finish dry, below 1010. Use a proper Saison yeast and play with your temperatures. Start the ferment around 20C and let it warm up to about 25 after a few days. This should give you all the spicy flavours you are after.

Personally I like my Saisons on the lighter side. Just Pils and maybe some wheat. This lets the yeast stand out

Kabooby


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## Trent (13/1/09)

Pitch at 20?!?
I usually pitch my saisons at 27 or 28 and let em run as high as they want, which hasnt yet (knock on wood) been above 35C, so all is sweet.
My first attempt went from 1067 to 1004 in a month for about 8.4% alcohol - no fusels, plenty of spiciness, and heaps of dryness and great saison flavours. I have since taken to starting my saisons at around 1036-1040, and they usually finish at 1002 to 1004. If you are using a proper saison yeast, you will have no trouble with it dropping less than 1010.
My grain bills are always just 90+% pils malt, with the remainder wheat. Mind you, I am a bit of a KISS brewer.
Good luck with it, right now is the time to be brewing saisons, and if you use the 3724, expect it to take a month. I have heard that the French Saison yeast can be done within a week or so to about 95% or so attenuation.
All the best
Trent


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## kabooby (14/1/09)

Thats good to know you can get away with those temps. My last saison was a 1045 beer that finished @ 1002. Great for a hot summers day :chug: 

I used the french Saison yeast and it got to about 27C. When it was finished I detected a slight fusel smell in the beer. After 6 weeks in the keg I can't detect it so it may have just been some spicyness from the fermentation. I don't believe fusel would disapate over time :unsure: 

Kabooby


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## Kai (14/1/09)

Aaron said:


> It is awesome. I have had DuPont, Regal and a few other Saisons. Given the choice I would pick Kai's.



Yeah!


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## jagerbrau (14/1/09)

second that on kai's Saison, tried it at a comp once best beer tried all day. he had some good competition


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## pmolou (14/1/09)

iv only brewed one and it went up to 34celcius 
i think the key to this style is having a little faith and just let it go


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## mikem108 (14/1/09)

Skip the candi sugar but if you really want to dry it out a bit and use an adjunct then plain old white sugar from the supermarket.


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## rwmingis (14/1/09)

It's really sounding like I should skip the Candi sugar, it's good this way, means less work for me. Bah, who gave me that Candi Sugar idea anyway! Oh yea, me.  

It's sounding like I'll be swapping to Kai's recipe now. I already have WLP565, so will have to use that, hope it's is a good one. Looks like this recipe will help complete my collection of every hop in the world!  

Thanks for all of your help, this is fantastic.

Cheers,

Rob :icon_cheers:


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## kabooby (14/1/09)

Just use the hops you have. Something like Saaz, Hallertaur, Fuggles, Styrian goldings would all be fine.

Kabooby


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## Tony (14/1/09)

Plan to make one soon while its warm using Bourgoul...... steamed cracked wheat.

Warren put me onto it and it is suposed to impart a dry champain character to the beer.

Will be using the farmhouse ale yeast and letting it go for its life with no temp control in the garage/house.

going a simple pils/munich/bourgoul grain bill and keeping it to 1.052 or so to makeit quaffable on a hot day.

cheers


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## rwmingis (14/1/09)

kabooby said:


> Just use the hops you have. Something like Saaz, Hallertaur, Fuggles, Styrian goldings would all be fine.
> 
> Kabooby




I had a stock take the other day and chucked out really old hops that weren't stored very well. 

Computa says i've got:

Amarillo Gold
Cascade
*Goldings - E.K.* Is this close enough to Styrian?
Nelson Sauvin Hops
German Perle
Saaz
Simcoe
*Hallertau*

Got any pointers? Suppose it wouldn't hurt to add one or two varieties to my stash. BTW does anyone know a good container to store hops in. I have those glass flip tops you get at golo, but i don't reckon they are very air tight. Would love to find a good supplier of those old glass jars with screw top lids (but the right size for 100g of pellets).

Cheers

Rob


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## mika (14/1/09)

Those hops should work fine.

Ziplock bags from a certain sponsor seem to work well 
Or buy a vacuum sealer and go nuts.
If they're kept in the freezer they'll hold on for a while even if not stored in a completely airtight container.


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## Trent (14/1/09)

Tony said:


> Plan to make one soon while its warm using Bourgoul...... steamed cracked wheat.
> 
> Warren put me onto it and it is suposed to impart a dry champain character to the beer.
> 
> ...




Tony 
starting it out at 1052 will probably give you around 6.5% alcohol (if it ferments down to 1002 to 1004), a bit big for quaffing, but you probably wont notice the alcohol so much. EDIT - Cause the alcohol hides very well in a saison, not cause you are a soak :lol:
Um, I have just tried my 2 fermenters full of saison, after 10 days they are both at 1028 (started at a much higher than anticpated 1045), and one of them is infected - horribly. Funny, cause they were both filled from the kettle at the same time, and pitched with a litre each out of the same 2L starter. 
Any coincidence it is the only fermenter I own with a tap? I think not. SO, until I can get rid of my infected fermenter, dont listen to my advice too much!
All the best
Trent
PS The un-infected fermenter tasted delicious. Go saisons!


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## Tony (14/1/09)

Mate......... im a soak so it will be fine!

Mashing it now. Sweating it out in the garage........... cant wait to fire up the burner.......... NOT!

here is what i have done.

Saison

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 27.00 Wort Size (L): 27.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.25
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.42
Anticipated EBC: 12.6
Anticipated IBU: 30.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
57.6 3.60 kg. IMC Pilsner Australia 1.038 3
16.0 1.00 kg. Bourghul Turkey 1.036 5
16.0 1.00 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
8.0 0.50 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.037 18
2.4 0.15 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 25.1 45 min.
20.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 4.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 0.9 2 min.


Yeast
-----

3726 Farmhouse ale @ whatever my house provides heat wise.


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: 

Total Grain kg: 6.25
Total Water Qts: 11.91 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 11.27 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.08
Grain Temp: 28.28 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein rest 5 15 52 51 Infuse 58 11.27 1.80
mash 5 45 64 63 Infuse 99 5.29 2.65
hi mash 5 20 71 70 Infuse 99 5.26 3.49


Total Water Qts: 23.06 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 21.83 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 26.00 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.
All infusion amounts are in Liters.
All infusion ratios are Liters/Kilograms.


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## Tony (14/1/09)

I added a fair chunk of acidulated malt to try and get a slight sour bite to the beer. Wit hthe dry finnish it should be quite quenching and intoxicating........... as is my intention 

cheers


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## schooey (14/1/09)

I brewed a keg of this before Christmas, I'm not so impressed with it. I kinda thought I stuffed something up but MHB assures me if it smells like the chook shit squishing between your toes when you were a kid, it's fine... :blink:

I think I might have to get you over for a taste next time you are in Newy, Trent. If it doesn't impress me soon it may well be run through my water purification plant.... h34r:


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## Josh (15/1/09)

Tony said:


> Mashing it now. Sweating it out in the garage........... cant wait to fire up the burner.......... NOT!


I have been following the Saison thread(s) this week and decided to brew today too. Mashing inside it was ridiculously hot in the house so firing up the burner out in the night air was welcome relief.

32L

80% 6.8kg Galaxy malt
10% 800g Wheat malt
10% 500g Home made candy sugar

OG 1.058 prior to adding candy sugar

35g Rakau 11.5% 60 mins
32g Saaz 4.0% 15 mins
42BU

Wyeast 3711 2L starter, fermenting under the stairs in our granny flat.

I had already made the candy sugar so decided to chuck it in regardless of the advice on here, substituting it in for other specialty grains. My candy sugar came out pretty dark so I am expecting a colour change to what went into the fermenter tonight. I have heard of letting the yeast do it's work on the malt first before adding the simple candy sugar so I will hold off on adding it for a while till the SG drops a fair way.


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## Tony (15/1/09)

Well i got 83% efficiency so ended up with 1.058.

SHould be great after mashing at 64 deg and using the farmhouse ale yeast.

God the beer smells good.

Will geep this updated.

cheers


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## Tony (15/1/09)

I smacked my farmhouse ale pack last night while still cold from the fridge. IT was about midnight when i smacked it and i left in the air conditioned comfort of my bar.

Went downstairs at 7:30 am this morning to find it so swolen and hard i was fearfull it would explode.

I smacked it early thinking i would need a starter.

Chucked the cube that was still about 30 deg in my garage in the fridge and let it chill till lunch time.

Ducatiboystu showed up for a beer or 7 and we chucked it in the fermenter and pitched the yeast. We both noted the yeast smelt like a bread or bakers yeast but with some funk in the background.

6 hrs later its bubbling away in the house with no temp control at all. We are airconditioned and its about 26 deg where the fermenter is.

Im just going to let it do what i wants too!

cheers


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## neonmeate (15/1/09)

sounds good tony. i like dark wheat as a character grain -i used some in a saison once and it was very nice.


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## Trent (15/1/09)

Schooey
I would love to try it, but it shouldnt smell like chook shit! It smelss slightly tart, with some malt and hops as the predominant aroma, and the flavour should be clean, slightly funky, and slightly tart. Co/me to think of it, the infected one I have smells a bit like chook shit!. I will try and get to see ya when I am Newy next, worst comes to it, I will drop ya in a year old bottle of saison - well past its prime, but still drinking OK.
All the best
Trent


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## rwmingis (24/1/09)

Tomorrow I'm finally getting around to brewing Kai's recipe. Made it all up and realised that I had JWM Munich and not Weyermann Munich II. So I've added about 4% caramunich to get me the same colour as kai's recipe. Does this sound right? Man, it's gunna be a hot day brewing tomorrow!

This is a great recipe to empty all my old malts, except for the Wey Pils, it uses every last bit of my stock, exactly. <_<

I've attached the final recipe for ref.

Cheers, :icon_cheers: 

Rob 

View attachment Saison.pdf


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## rwmingis (27/1/09)

Well I did the brew yesterday, so far so good. Did notice though that I had HEAPS of floaty bits that materialised about 10 minutes into the boil. Looked like the stringy egg white you see in hot and sour soup and it followed the convection currents of the boil, so it was not just on the surface. I imagine it's hot break but not sure, have never seen it to such an extent. Would it be because I used a whole kilo of munich malt? What would cause this?







Cheers,

Rob


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## schooey (27/1/09)

Trent said:


> Schooey
> I would love to try it, but it shouldnt smell like chook shit! It smelss slightly tart, with some malt and hops as the predominant aroma, and the flavour should be clean, slightly funky, and slightly tart. Co/me to think of it, the infected one I have smells a bit like chook shit!. I will try and get to see ya when I am Newy next, worst comes to it, I will drop ya in a year old bottle of saison - well past its prime, but still drinking OK.
> All the best
> Trent



Sorry, Trent, didn't see this until just now. I'm thinking it have some kind of infection, it's been in the keg almost 6 weeks now and the flavour is only getting worse. I'm thinking I'll dump it and maybe have another try at a later date. Thanks for the feedback


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## Barry (27/1/09)

Brewing Bob
Looks normal to me, can get more of the white trub? with lager malts in my experience but others might have other ideas.


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## kabooby (28/1/09)

This is normal if the wort cools slightly and some break forms.

I would be more concerned about the way your wort enters the kettle. Is it splashing in or does it just look like it in the picture?

Kabooby


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## rwmingis (28/1/09)

kabooby said:


> This is normal if the wort cools slightly and some break forms.
> 
> I would be more concerned about the way your wort enters the kettle. Is it splashing in or does it just look like it in the picture?
> 
> Kabooby




Well my sparge technique is really crap but no splashing. Temperature is usually between 65 and 70. Probably cooled to 65 before I lit the burner. Could have been that. At beginning of boil there was no break though. This is also pre-hop addition. 

56% attenuated now after 3 days, and man, it smell spicy in a v. good way, wow! I love AG, how you can get so many different types of beer. With the kits, they all tasted the same (musta been made out of ticky tacky  )


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## Kai (29/1/09)

Looking good, B.B. Let us know how it turns out.

At least this lovely hot weather is perfect for fermenting out a saison.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (31/1/09)

Tony said:


> Plan to make one soon while its warm using Bourgoul...... steamed cracked wheat.
> 
> Warren put me onto it and it is suposed to impart a dry champain character to the beer.
> 
> ...



Well I have just knocked of a bottle of Warren's Saison and it is an absolute cracker of a beer. The spicyness and dry flavour make for a great summer drinking beer. In fact I would say the drinkability is perfect.
Sensational drop Warren and if you have followed the details from Warren, Tony I think you will be extremely pleased :icon_chickcheers: !

C&B
TDA


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## rwmingis (17/2/09)

G'day Guys,

Well she's been a'fermenten' for about 3 weeks now, 2 in primary and a bit over 1 in the secondary. After about 4 days in, I hit 1.014 and it's just stopped there cold, but of course this was expected. The bugger just won't seem to dry out even though I had heaps of aeration plus yeast nutrient at beginning. The OG was only about 1.052 which isn't extraordinarily high. At the moment i have AA of 75% and the yeast has settled out clear too.

The yeast manufacturer even recommends drying out with another yeast. What do you guys think, if I bottled as it stands, I could get a wild yeast in there and have bottle bombs... but then again, I don't wanna put another yeast in.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Rob


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## jyo (2/10/10)

G'day all. Didn't want to start a new thread.
With the weather warming up, it's time to give my first saison a go. Just wondering if some experienced eyes can have a look at my recipe and offer some advice. I'm wondering whether to drop the biscuit and/or the munich and let the vienna do its work? Also thinking of using palm sugar instead of white sugar after trying a lovely saison using this.
Cheers guys, John. :icon_cheers: 

Saison 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recipe Specs
Original Gravity Final Gravity Colour (SRM / EBC)
Bitterness Alcohol by Volume 
1.061 1.014 5.3 / 10.4 36.1 IBU 6.1% 

Brewhouse Specs
Recipe Type Batch Size Boil Time Efficiency 
All Grain 23.0 Litres / 6.1 Gal 60.0 min 72.0% 

*Fermentables*
Name Type SRM Percentage Amount 
Pale Malt Grain 2.0 44.63 % 2.70 Kg / 5.95 Lbs 
Wheat Malt Grain 2.0 20.66 % 1.25 Kg / 2.76 Lbs 
Vienna Grain 3.0 19.83 % 1.20 Kg / 2.65 Lbs 
Munich I Grain 7.1 8.26 % 0.50 Kg / 1.10 Lbs 
Cane Sugar Sugar 0.0 4.96 % 0.30 Kg / 0.66 Lbs 
Biscuit Grain 25.0 1.65 % 0.10 Kg / 0.22 Lbs 

*HopsName AA% Amount Use Time *
Perle 7.5% 10.00 g / 0.35 oz Boil 60 mins 
Styrian Golding 3.5% 30.00 g / 1.06 oz Boil 60 mins 
Perle 7.5% 20.00 g / 0.71 oz Boil 20 mins 
Styrian Golding 3.5% 40.00 g / 1.41 oz Boil 20 mins 
Styrian Golding 3.5% 23.00 g / 0.81 oz Dry Hop 0 mins 

MiscName Amount Use Time 
Irish Moss 0.00 g / 0.00 oz Boil 15 mins 
Coriander Seed 5.00 g / 0.18 oz Boil 0 mins 
Orange Peel 15.00 g / 0.53 oz Boil 0 mins 

YeastName Attenuation 
Wyeast 3724 - Belgian Saison 75 % 

Mash StepsStep Name Time Temperature Type 
Saccharification Rest 90.0 min 64.0 C / 147.2 F Infusion 

*Notes: *Pale malt is BB Galaxy. Orange peel and coriander added at flameout to allow for no-chill in cube. 20 minute hop additions are at flameout to allow for no-chill in cube.


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## Tony (2/10/10)

looks fine to me. you could simplify it by dropping the munich and the biscuit and just using vienna to keep it simple.

I have a pack of 3724 belgian saison yeast in the fridge just waiting for the temp to crack 30+ in my garage, and im making one again.

Will be making it down low at about 1.040 and mashing at 63 for a super dry beer. LEt it run as it wants in the heat of the garage in the summer......... the perfect aussie summer beer!


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## jyo (2/10/10)

Tony said:


> looks fine to me. you could simplify it by dropping the munich and the biscuit and just using vienna to keep it simple.
> 
> I have a pack of 3724 belgian saison yeast in the fridge just waiting for the temp to crack 30+ in my garage, and im making one again.
> 
> Will be making it down low at about 1.040 and mashing at 63 for a super dry beer. LEt it run as it wants in the heat of the garage in the summer......... the perfect aussie summer beer!



Thanks, Tony. I'll just go the galaxy, wheat, vienna and the sugar. Looking forward to this. :icon_cheers: 
Cheers, John.


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## Tony (2/10/10)

these yeasts are famous for being very good atenuators so there is really no need to use sugar.

Id just use malt and mash cool at 63 or 64, and maybe a boiling water infusion up to 71, rest for 15 and mash out at that.

That will get you a really low FG without having to use sugar which really adds nothing to the beer but alcahol in the end.

cheers


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## jyo (2/10/10)

Tony said:


> these yeasts are famous for being very good atenuators so there is really no need to use sugar.
> 
> Id just use malt and mash cool at 63 or 64, and maybe a boiling water infusion up to 71, rest for 15 and mash out at that.
> 
> ...



Ok, sounds good, mate. I can see this being my summer beer for sure. I'll let you know how this turns out.
Cheers again.


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## drtomc (4/10/10)

FWIW, I just did a gravity reading on my second Saison

3kg Wey Pilsner malt
2kg Wey Wheat malt
1kg Wey Munich I

Mashed BIAB 90mins at 72C-73C, mashout at 77.

Wyeast 3724.

OG 1.060, current SG 1.006. Will probably bottle at the end of the week.

As Tony says, it attenuates well.

The sample was pretty tasty - I can't wait to try it cold and fizzy instead of warm and flat. 

T.


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## brett mccluskey (4/10/10)

I've used the 3724 numerous times and it's notorious for slowing down to to virtually nothing at about 1025-1030 .Use the 1056 to finish it off,or the S-05.I've spoken to Ben Krauss at Bridge rd about his saison,and this is what he does also.The first time i used the 3724 it took nearly 6 weeks at 29c to get to 1012 with no finishing yeast...scary! :drinks:


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## jyo (4/10/10)

toper1 said:


> I've used the 3724 numerous times and it's notorious for slowing down to to virtually nothing at about 1025-1030 .Use the 1056 to finish it off,or the S-05.I've spoken to Ben Krauss at Bridge rd about his saison,and this is what he does also.The first time i used the 3724 it took nearly 6 weeks at 29c to get to 1012 with no finishing yeast...scary! :drinks:



Holy shit, that's a long fermentation period! So does adding the US05 scrub off any of the saison yeast character? Also, do you need to drop the temp when adding the 05 to avoid stuffing the yeast?

@drtomc- Do you mean mash at 62'-63' ?

Cheers blokes.
John.


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## Tony (4/10/10)

Another good yeast to finnish with (if you must) would be 1007..... dry and crisp.

I just let the 3724 put away as it must for a month or 2


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## drtomc (4/10/10)

@jyo Yes. 90mins @ 62-63 (my current firefox version crashes when I try to edit).

Give it time, and 3724 gets fantastic attenuation.

T.


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## brett mccluskey (4/10/10)

jyo said:


> Holy shit, that's a long fermentation period! So does adding the US05 scrub off any of the saison yeast character? Also, do you need to drop the temp when adding the 05 to avoid stuffing the yeast?
> 
> @drtomc- Do you mean mash at 62'-63' ?
> 
> ...


As far as my experience/knowledge goes ,all the saison flavour develpment has been achieved by the time i add the 1056.My experience is that it starts off like the clappers for the first 4-5 days,then over the next few days to a week slows down to bugger all so you think it's stalled/If you leave it ,it will eventually get there,but bloody hell,6 weeks is very scary brewing.I really think mash profile for simple sugar production is an important factor in a good saison ,to get a crisp,dry,character. I add a 1.5-2 litre starter after the gravity is stable for 2 days,generally 4-6 days after primary starts.Have patience ! A good saison takes time,but it's worth it :super:


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## brett mccluskey (4/10/10)

jyo said:


> Holy shit, that's a long fermentation period! So does adding the US05 scrub off any of the saison yeast character? Also, do you need to drop the temp when adding the 05 to avoid stuffing the yeast?
> 
> @drtomc- Do you mean mash at 62'-63' ?
> 
> ...


As far as my experience/knowledge goes ,all the saison flavour develpment has been achieved by the time i add the 1056.My experience is that it starts off like the clappers for the first 4-5 days,then over the next few days to a week slows down to bugger all so you think it's stalled/If you leave it ,it will eventually get there,but bloody hell,6 weeks is very scary brewing.I really think mash profile for simple sugar production is an important factor in a good saison ,to get a crisp,dry,character. I add a 1.5-2 litre starter after the gravity is stable for 2 days,generally 4-6 days after primary starts.Have patience ! A good saison takes time,but it's worth it :super:


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## drtomc (4/10/10)

Absolutely! I've only done a handful of AG brews, and Saison is the first one I've done twice. 

My previous one I used a really bland malt bill (from memory, 70% Pils, 30% wheat) to let the yeast sing, and it was very good. This time I've added Munich, and from the sample jar, it has lifted it another notch.

T.


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## brett mccluskey (4/10/10)

drtomc said:


> Absolutely! I've only done a handful of AG brews, and Saison is the first one I've done twice.
> 
> My previous one I used a really bland malt bill (from memory, 70% Pils, 30% wheat) to let the yeast sing, and it was very good. This time I've added Munich, and from the sample jar, it has lifted it another notch.
> 
> T.


sounds very nice.I personally like to keep the grist bill relatively simple,2-3 grains,and let the yeast make the statement regarding flavour.The 3724 develops heaps of flavour/aroma without the addition of any spices .A touch of rye isn't bad either :icon_chickcheers:


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## jyo (4/10/10)

Good stuff. Thanks for the replies, fellas. I will put it down in a couple of weeks and will update on how it goes.
Cheers, John.
This is it:
Original Gravity (OG): 1.053 (P): 13.1
Colour (SRM): 4.1 (EBC): 8.1
Bitterness (IBU): 38.1 (Average)

51.85% Pale Malt
24.07% Vienna
24.07% Wheat Malt

0.4 g/L Perle (7.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
1.3 g/L Styrian Golding (3.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Perle (7.5% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil)
1.7 g/L Styrian Golding (3.5% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil)
1 g/L Styrian Golding (3.5% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)

0.2 g/L Coriander Seed @ 0 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L Orange Peel @ 0 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 64C for 90 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 25-29C with Wyeast 3724 - Belgian Saison

Notes: Pale malt is BB Galaxy

Orange peel and coriander added at flameout to allow for no-chill in cube.

20 minute hop additions are at flameout to allow for no-chill in cube.

Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## drtomc (4/10/10)

My 2c would be to drop the coriander and orange peel. Ferment warm (e.g. pitch at 24 and ramp up to 30 over a few days) and let the yeast sing!

T.


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## jyo (4/10/10)

drtomc said:


> My 2c would be to drop the coriander and orange peel. Ferment warm (e.g. pitch at 24 and ramp up to 30 over a few days) and let the yeast sing!
> 
> T.



Yea, might not be a bad idea so I can find out what this yeast does on its own..
Cheers, mate.


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## brett mccluskey (4/10/10)

x2 Let the yeast speak,heaps and heaps of spiciness by itself.Play with temp. and pitching rate,etc,to your preference in flavour profile Whatever your grain bill is it's the yeast that makes a saison. :icon_cheers:


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## mika (5/10/10)

I've only done the one saison thus far, but I wouldn't be starting the ferment real warm, you still don't want the fusel alcohols. Though perhaps it won't be so bad at 1050. The yeast certainly works slow (9 weeks for me), so I wouldn't be worried about it running away and fermenting the beer without all the saison yeast spicyness that is expected.
Just my 2c.


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## drtomc (5/10/10)

According to "Farmhouse Ales" the Dupont strain (i.e. the Wyeast 3724) is particularly notable for producing low levels of fusel alcohol when fermenting warm. My experience (1.5 saisons) is in accord with this. I think a fusel alcohol presence is probably an important contributer to the spicy character, though I emphasise "presence" not "dominance", "kick in the head", or anything. We're not trying to make rocket fuel (see the Malt Liquor thread  )!

T.
ps I see that Carwyn Cellars has a range of Dupont beers currently. I picked up a Moinette, but there were several others in addition to their Saison. Love Carwyn Cellars!


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## thewobblythong (10/9/11)

jagerbrau said:


> second that on kai's Saison, tried it at a comp once best beer tried all day. he had some good competition



Sorry for the grave-dig on this thread, but I am a mad Saison lover...

another + 1 for Kai's Saison recipe. I brewed it a few months back, and it is a rocking recipe. Currently messing with it for the next brew to see if I can get more out of the yeast.


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## winkle (10/9/11)

If you are re-using W3724, the next generations seem to preform better ie: 2 weeks to ~1.004 
(or just use W3711 which is almost as good and much quicker)


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