# Chinese Hop Bulk Buy Fallout



## Adamt (7/1/10)

To keep discussion out of the Bulk Buys and Hop of the Week threads, which are for the purchasing and reviews of the hops respectively, this thread is created for (relatively) free discussion of the burning issues being brought up in the other threads (that don't belong there).

I have received "approval" for this thread, of course, keep it within the forum rules!


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## peted27 (7/1/10)

Adamt said:


> To keep discussion out of the Bulk Buys and Hop of the Week threads, which are for the purchasing and reviews of the hops respectively, this thread is created for (relatively) free discussion of the burning issues being brought up in the other threads (that don't belong there).
> 
> I have received "approval" for this thread, of course, keep it within the forum rules!



ive got some burning issues, but i might have to see a doctor for mine


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## .DJ. (7/1/10)

although there has been some banter about these hops "quality", we should all remember the original bulk buy offer...

_BUYER BEWARE - 

Please read carefully and understand fully both the risks and benefits of this exercise. While many of us have done our best in checking the company to ensure you get these hops, No-one has done this before. Scammer are very good at deceiving people and while on all accounts this looks like a good deal, that also what scammers are good at also. For all we know this could be a con-job. So we might not get any hops at all. Equally we cant guarantee the quality of the hops if they do arrive. China is the third largest producers of hops in the world, BUT that doesn't mean the quality is great._


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## Steve (7/1/10)

It was a gamble for not much money (me personally that is) that unfortunately didnt work out. I was happy to take the gamble for the cost and am equally happy to give them away or chuck them in the compost.
Cheers
Steve


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## .DJ. (7/1/10)

.DJ. said:


> although there has been some banter about these hops "quality", we should all remember the original bulk buy offer...
> 
> _BUYER BEWARE -
> 
> Please read carefully and understand fully both the risks and benefits of this exercise. While many of us have done our best in checking the company to ensure you get these hops, No-one has done this before. Scammer are very good at deceiving people and while on all accounts this looks like a good deal, that also what scammers are good at also. For all we know this could be a con-job. So we might not get any hops at all. Equally we cant guarantee the quality of the hops if they do arrive. China is the third largest producers of hops in the world, BUT that doesn't mean the quality is great._



to add to my OP.... 

I guess peoples issue was the constant spruiking of how good these hops were which raised their expectations...


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## benno1973 (7/1/10)

Absolutely. The initial bulk buy was set up correctly, with buyers being warned that the quality of the hops was not guaranteed. I had no beef with the bulk buy up until the hops arrived, where the constant spruiking of the 'increased quality' of these hops by GLS seemed to fly in the face of all reviews on AHB. In addition, he implied that the problem wasn't with the quality of the hops but instead with the brewer, as though these hops were some sort of test of a brewers skill (despite the fact that we can achieve consistent quality results with other hops). 

Not all the hops stink - I think the Cascade is alright - but horses for courses, they aren't hops I'd use for aroma. I'm sick of Graham and his attitude towards his fellow brewers. He just seems like a child who craves attention.


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## cdbrown (7/1/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> I'm sick of Graham and his attitude towards his fellow brewers. He just seems like a child who craves attention.



If you read his posts I'd say that he doesn't class us as fellow brewers.....


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## benno1973 (7/1/10)

cdbrown said:


> If you read his posts I'd say that he doesn't class us as fellow brewers.....



The fact that he makes a distinction between a 'craftbrewer' and a 'homebrewer' (and classes himself as the former) goes to highlight this...


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## Goofinder (7/1/10)

I'm glad I didn't waste any money on buying craploads of hops that I wouldn't have used based on the majority of the feedback here.

However, the threads before, during and after the bulk buy have provided some entertaining reading.


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## Adamt (7/1/10)

One thing that plagued my mind a little when it was developing, was "why were the orders in 1kg lots?"

I understand that at the start, 1kg was chosen because of the low price and wanting to make a minimum order... but as far as I recall the "minimum order" was absolutely and utterly exceeded. 

Considering the unknown nature of the hops (for which, to my understanding a "free sample" was REFUSED), why was the buy amounts still at 1kg and not much smaller (500g, 250g per person)?


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## cdbrown (7/1/10)

Because the chinese suppliers wanted to offload all the crap hops from previous seasons that the major breweries (who send their own inspectors if you didn't know) didn't purchase.


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## Adamt (7/1/10)

Well, that would explain the (reported) lack of aroma, flavour and powdery state of the hops.


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## jonocarroll (7/1/10)

Adamt said:


> One thing that plagued my mind a little when it was developing, was "why were the orders in 1kg lots?"
> 
> I understand that at the start, 1kg was chosen because of the low price and wanting to make a minimum order... but as far as I recall the "minimum order" was absolutely and utterly exceeded.
> 
> Considering the unknown nature of the hops (for which, to my understanding a "free sample" was REFUSED), why was the buy amounts still at 1kg and not much smaller (500g, 250g per person)?


This may stir up a bit of trouble, but maybe for good reason. I've followed the threads for sheer amusement, and have avoided posting unnecessarily.

This isn't an accusation of wrong doing, just a genuine query... Apologies if it is a null point.

The paperwork for the costs of shipping were made public and accounted for, but what about the original prices? Did anyone see an invoice for the actual base price of the hops? Is it out of the question to propose that the actual price of the hops was perhaps a $ or two less than that quoted on here? Yes, this would imply that someone along the line pulled a profit (in no way illegally necessarily), and would explain a lot of the spruiking/large size orders/motivation.

h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r:


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## bum (7/1/10)

Adamt said:


> Considering the unknown nature of the hops (for which, to my understanding a "free sample" was REFUSED), why was the buy amounts still at 1kg and not much smaller (500g, 250g per person)?



Good luck finding the volunteers to do 4 times the work for the same volume. 1kg seems reasonable to me considering the size of the task.


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## Adamt (7/1/10)

bum said:


> Good luck finding the volunteers to do 4 times the work for the same volume. 1kg seems reasonable to me considering the size of the task.



Why would it have been 4 times the work? It would be the same number of orders (plus a few more people who didn't want to shell out for a full kg, myself included), except you'd be weighing out less each time.

1kg is ridiculous considering the amounts being thrown away and the unknown quality of the hops.

EDIT: Considering there was promise of more bulk buys, there would have been very little reason to order a full kg if it was possible to only order a smaller amount.


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## raven19 (7/1/10)

I got a few $$ packed in with my hops in the original bulk buy. A nice and unexpected suprise.

Have only used some Marco Polo for bittering hops in a Dr S LL so far, tasting fine it is too!


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## benno1973 (7/1/10)

raven19 said:


> I got a few $$ packed in with my hops in the original bulk buy. A nice and unexpected suprise.
> 
> Have only used some Marco Polo for bittering hops in a Dr S LL so far, tasting fine it is too!


Pffttt... Raven, this is the bitching and moaning thread! You're totally off-topic. Mods - please delete this constructive post


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## bum (7/1/10)

Adamt said:


> Why would it have been 4 times the work? It would be the same number of orders (plus a few more people who didn't want to shell out for a full kg, myself included), except you'd be weighing out less each time.



When setting up the buy there was an overall minimum order set. If that amount was ordered but needed to be split into 250g packs instead of 1kg packs it is clearly more work. No sense in saying "But it's the same total volume - how can it be more work?". It is clearly more work.

Yes, I understand that you're saying that once the buy went bigger than that minimum there was no need to maintain such a large minimum per person but how do you change that rule? Offer everyone the chance to buy more practical amounts and have that minimum order fall through? Or alienate the people who got in first by offering a better deal to the Johnny-come-latelies? And keeping track of wildly varying order sizes would be a logistical nightmare (which I'm sure it was even with the standardised 1kg package size).


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## jonocarroll (7/1/10)

raven19 said:


> I got a few $ packed in with my hops in the original bulk buy. A nice and unexpected suprise.


It is my understanding that the unexpected surprise did not arrive for everyone... h34r:


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## Fourstar (7/1/10)

Im going to stay away from the banter and monkey poo throwing until i get to taste my hops for myself. I must say the aromas coming from the saaz during the boils (yeas, 2 batches) where dismal but slightly floral, cascade was grassy and marco polo smelt typically american. Thats all i really have to offer at this stage. 

I have a feeling this is all becoming very much 'lord of the flies' because a few brewers have discounted them its infecting the rest of us. Ive kept my expectation of the quality and or aroma/flavour profiles of this hops rather low since day one. Consequently, if the beers i end up with exceed this expectation i guess ive won. After all, i spent $55~ bucks on 3KG of hops. if i only use them each once @ 100g a batch im infront on costs compared to our local hop prices. 

Put it this way, at $2~ per/100g compared to up to $15 per/100g for US hops, you cant expect ground breaking results can you.


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## Adamt (7/1/10)

bum said:


> When setting up the buy there was an overall minimum order set. If that amount was ordered but needed to be split into 250g packs instead of 1kg packs it is clearly more work. No sense in saying "But it's the same total volume - how can it be more work?". It is clearly more work.



What I meant, was that say for example the total purchase was 4 times the minimum order, why not make the purchase for the minimum order and split into 250g packs instead?

But yes, it would've been a (bigger) logistical nightmare to do this as the bulk buy is running. Perhaps a "bottom-up" tactic would've been better... starting with a smaller minimum order, or perhaps accepting the offer of a free sample before making a large purchase.

Hindsight is truly a wonderful thing.


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## bum (7/1/10)

Adamt said:


> or perhaps accepting the offer of a free sample before making a large purchase.



This point is a very valid one but for one thing - who would have been making the assessment of their quality? The gentleman who still insists that the hops are terrific?


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## Adamt (7/1/10)

Touch.


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## jonocarroll (7/1/10)

Nudge for my question in post #13... anyone know if this was public?


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## bum (7/1/10)

Dunno but I do recall something pertinent to your post #19. The reason has been given for the phenomenon you've observed. There was an admission that some people who were owed a small refund got nothing and some people got a little extra. If I recall correctly it was about making things a little more fluid on the day. I know this was explained by someone other than the Great Man himself. Perhaps he might wish to repeat the details I've forgotten? There was no account posted of what excess money went where.


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## .DJ. (7/1/10)

so who was this mysterious micro who allegedly bought up big?

I do like how the "real" craftbrewer is selling these hops for $1.50!!!



edit: added the word "allegedly" for legal reason...


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## Fourstar (7/1/10)

.DJ. said:


> I do like how the "real" craftbrewer is selling these hops for $1.50!!!



Its a Fire sale!!!


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## bonj (7/1/10)

I advise anyone that paid money for a product that was not supplied to send a formal letter demanding restitution for the breach of contract. If he doesn't remedy the breach, warn him of your intention to seek restitution in the small claims tribunal.


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## staggalee (7/1/10)

stagga


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## daemon (7/1/10)

cdbrown said:


> Because the chinese suppliers wanted to offload all the crap hops from previous seasons that the major breweries (who send their own inspectors if you didn't know) didn't purchase.


I'm certainly no expert but this is certainly what I think they've done. It also explains why there were Cascade hops in different packaging and different coloured pellets, probably even older than the larger lot. It would explain the lack of aroma and subdued flavour.



Fourstar said:


> Put it this way, at $2~ per/100g compared to up to $15 per/100g for US hops, you cant expect ground breaking results can you.


These were bought in a bulk buy, so it'd be valid to compare prices to buying US hops in bulk. I've been doing some investigation for the local homebrew club and I can get true US Cascade hops for $50/kg landed in Australia. So, you can have the subdued flavour, stale and aromaless hops for $2/100g or the proper US hops for $5/100g. Considering you need to nearly double the Chinese variety for flavour and the fact that they're no good for aroma (so you'll need other hops anyway) it doesn't make them very good value anymore. 

It was a good experiment and worth trying, it just didn't work out.


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## QldKev (7/1/10)

I agree these Chinese hops from my limited use seem to be poor. I purchased 6kg of Chinese hops, and am considering dumping the lot and moving on from them. I cannot be bothered spending several hours to brew what I believe will be low quality beer. As I mentioned in the other thread I made a 50L batch of budvar using 110g for flavour and 110g for auroma from the Chinese Saaz batch. When I added the hops I did not gte that hoppy goodness in your face from them. In the kettle I noticed an oily film with a sludge as Gregs describes as a mother-of-pearl sludge. Now the issue is I have 50L of beer sitting idle in a cube I am concerned for health reasons if I should bother fermenting it. I don't know 100% if this was caused from these hops, but I have never noticed it prior, also I notice noone else has noted this from the hops.

As Daemon said, we can currently get hops out of the US for ok prices, eg I have been using Nikobrew.com and he currently has Cascade at $US15.00 per pound minus our AUSSIEHOPS discount 5% making it $US14.25, and with delivery to Australia for up to 2.5 pounds at $US12.78, it makes it very good value; and with the bonus of not needing a massive bulk buy. When you compare it to the quality of the Chinese hops; that not 1 person has come out and said they think the Chinese hops are up to the standard of the US/UK/NZ varieties; it does not make sense to use the Chinese hops. 


QldKev


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## Fourstar (7/1/10)

Daemon said:


> These were bought in a bulk buy, so it'd be valid to compare prices to buying US hops in bulk. I've been doing some investigation for the local homebrew club and I can get true US Cascade hops for $50/kg landed in Australia. So, you can have the subdued flavour, stale and aromaless hops for $2/100g or the proper US hops for $5/100g. Considering you need to nearly double the Chinese variety for flavour and the fact that they're no good for aroma (so you'll need other hops anyway) it doesn't make them very good value anymore.






QldKev said:


> As Daemon said, we can currently get hops out of the US for ok prices, eg I have been using Nikobrew.com and he currently has Cascade at $US15.00 per pound minus our AUSSIEHOPS discount 5% making it $US14.25, and with delivery to Australia for up to 2.5 pounds at $US12.78, it makes it very good value; and with the bonus of not needing a massive bulk buy. When you compare it to the quality of the Chinese hops; that not 1 person has come out and said they think the Chinese hops are up to the standard of the US/UK/NZ varieties; it does not make sense to use the Chinese hops.



I agree guys and thats currently my stance on buying american hops at the moment. My comparison was for those who only have the ability to buy local and in smal qtys but yes, it isnt a fair comparison as its a bulk buy but its the harsh reality for some of us. 

Cascade is going on the cheap and for the henstooth hops of Centennial and Chinook we are still seeing relativly cheap prices out of the states. With the crappy markup local retailers unfortuantly have to offer to reduce brunt of their distributors prices it isnt really fair game for the aussie consumers at the moment. My local is weighing up getting some sent direct from the states as well to make things a little easier. Who wouldnt?!

Speaking of, i could do with a chunk of cascade, chinook and simcoe sent down soon, especially if i cant get through the chinese stuff! Its been so long on US Magnum and Centennial since my last import purchase i think im starting to become blinkered! :lol:


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## MarkBastard (7/1/10)

My 2 cents.

We talk a minor gamble for the chance to get some cheap hops. This was out of desperation due to the ludicrous price of hops. It didn't really pay off but we all learnt something at the same time, and now we at least know that we are capable of ordering in bulk etc. Next time cut out townsville and order from somewhere better (ie the USA) and I reckon we'll be laughing. I'll put my hand up for anything as long as townsville isn't running it.


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## staggalee (7/1/10)

It still amazes me that brewers long term and otherwise thought they would be getting top shelf hops for the price they were given.
Anyway, it`s all over now . The last time I saw the 2nd round list it had about 128 buyers on it. Wonder how that`s travelling?

stagga.


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## Duff (7/1/10)

QldKev said:


> As Daemon said, we can currently get hops out of the US for ok prices, eg I have been using Nikobrew.com and he currently has Cascade at $US15.00 per pound minus our AUSSIEHOPS discount 5% making it $US14.25, and with delivery to Australia for up to 2.5 pounds at $US12.78, it makes it very good value; and with the bonus of not needing a massive bulk buy.
> 
> 
> QldKev



:icon_offtopic: 

QldKev - that sounds great for hops delivered. Have you had any problems with quality/service? PM me if you wish.

Cheers.


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## chappo1970 (7/1/10)

Again I will say for the record my issues with DH does not stem from my missing hops that truly is old news and all has been previously explained. To be honest we have butted heads since day one when I got involved in the first BB. Our personalities clash like all hell and I fully admit that.

I have on the most part refrained from commenting on the quality of these hops because of this exact issue and one other which I will talk about soon. There have been several occasions I have attempted to comment on the quality but have failed miserably because I get sucked into a slanging match instead of ignoring the walrus and simply commenting on my experience with these hops. Consequently the mods rightfully, let me say, deleted the posts as they were without a doubt tainted with my absolute distain for DH, his attitude towards fellow AHB members and as well as me being off topic lol. In lots of ways now, I am glad I didn't get my full quota of hops, especially from what I have experienced personally with my own beers and the other brewers beers I have tasted. What Gregs has reported is a deadest worry IMO and is definitely got me worried.

Now to the other issue I mentioned above. The reason I didnt want everyone to do a hop drive donation was because everyone in the hop bulk buy had already paid for my hops once already. It goes completely against my grain to have you guys pay twice for something you already did but without your knowledge as far as I know. That was part of the deal DH set up and thats the way it went down. I am not shy of a dollar, this was not what motivated me to get involved, I was more than happy to pay for them and to do the work without the refund carrot. Now let me state that all those, as far as I am aware, paid for their hops prior to the order being placed with China (it was totally above board). It was refunded after the hops arrived here in Australia and once all the costs were accounted for. Im not sure that everybody was aware of that fact, if you were then great it was all above board to the greater AHB community and Im happy, if not well Im sorry to be the bearer of that news but that is what happened. Hence why I could not accept the kind offers even though I did get some hops which I still feel extremely guilty about having in my brewery. As for the comments about the north being awash with cheap Chinese hops, who actually paid for them and who profited from them I can speculate as I did not want nor did I have anything to do with the money side of things.

What disgruntled me the most over this whole sordid Bulk Buy affair was the constant lies about the quality of the hops and the annoying BS being constantly spruiked by DH especially now on the 2nd BB hop thread. From day one, it started , and it's still going on today. All of it is utter BS without a thread or shred of truth, evidence or fact.

Now I want to comment on the constant BS spruiking and why it gets my knickers in a knot. 

Simply DH is a self confessed novice when dealing with businesses and the importation of goods. I have had numerous dealings worth tens of millions of dollars over the years with overseas companies (including China) and it's always been the same deal, even when importing cars from the USA, you have to eye ball them and their operations first before you believe anything that is either offered, said or implied. In lots of ways I am still a complete novice in these dealings myself. I confess that completely. This is why wholesalers make profits, why they stay in business and can guarantee a certain quality of product they sell to the retailers and eventually the end users. This rule of thumb, as far as I'm concerned, is for any and every country not just China.

To be effective in importing goods and to ensure you receive the goods you have paid for you simply cannot do it sitting behind a screen via the internet from some remote corner of the universe. It's just that simple. I have personally been to China twice now and dealt with them face to face and even after that I was still ripped off to a certain degree importing architectural door furniture. Same with my dealings from the USA. I received a completely different car from the one I loaded into a container myself. It was switched out before being picked up by the transport company from the car yard I bought the car off and had been dealing with for 5 years prior. 

With my limited past dealings and experience I really do feel that DH is doing a disservice by immediately ordering more hops that have not been fully vetted, commented and tested by the AHB community. He will only perpetuate to them that we are willing to buy 2nd rate goods. If he can't admit the hop failings here on AHB, to those that would have otherwise supported him (had he been more accepting of other brewers opinions), then one can only gather he is not telling them the whole awful truth either. They know the hops are second grade they aren't completely naive to what's happened and what they have supplied us. They will say whatever it takes to secure the deal with a smile on their face and all I see is DH lapping that up hook line and sinker. 

As for the quality of the 2nd BB hops I am certain they will be as good as the first from past experiences? Thats why I kept hammering that thread. They will simply continue to send poor quality because we or rather DH accepted them before and got away with it so we can do it again. What DH is failing to understand is they do not have the governing laws that we have here in Australia which amongst other things protect the end user no matter where in the world they are exported to. Do you really think any economic harm will come to China from a bunch of Aussie home brewers getting sick from the cheap hops they imported? Hell no and dont kid yourself! Maybe if we were very young children and there was some worldwide media hype behind it but certainly not for a bunch of busted arsed brewers trying to save a buck. 

They full well know, as well as we do, that there can be absolutely no damaging recourse to them what so ever. They don't care if you don't come back for more or you drop dead from ingesting a gut full of e-coli. Now that is the truth. The Chinese business that supplied the hops couldn't give two hoots about the size of the order or the quality supplied to us that keeps getting banged on about. NONE! As for all the BS with growing regions, production techniques, better quality to come, blah, blah, blah. All I can say is if you believe that then I have a Harbour Bridge in Sydney with good turn over and high profits to sell you which is going dirt cheap. 

Now before you pull the racist tag on me and brand me anti-chinese for my comments. I'll give you the heads up, to save you putting your foot in it with me, that my mother in law is native Chinese. I have a half Chinese/Aussie step sister and my wife is also 1/8th Chinese hence her almond shaped eyes. I'll give you fare warning I love all of them dearly so don't try to insult me with baseless accusations because I will take offence and I will strike back.

Now for some suggestions in how to deal with people. If DH had just come out with something resembling the truth on the state of the hop quality from the first BB I wouldn't have an issue I would let all things be water under the bridge. All it would have taken is, for example, something along these lines "well it looks like the first batch of hops wasn't overly fantastic by all reports. I dont really agree as the beers I have produced have been more than acceptable and not just by me but other brewers up here. PM me if you want my secrets to proper hop aroma and flavour extraction. However even I have to admit it looks like they lied to me about the freshness and quality. Which was to be expected really? I'm still interested in conducting another BB to see if we can be taken more seriously and get a better quality hop for all of us at the same price. Maybe from a different company this time? I honestly don't think they are too bad but it was a risk we all knew was there. Hey guys at the very least they are cheap bittering hops and good enough quality that you can at least make a very decent quaffing beer with. Here are some recipes I and others have had some reasonable success with so far up north here." 

Now if that approach was taken then I, and I am guessing others, would have settled on that comfortably. I wouldn't be here typing this crazy essay. I would be saying fair enough DH. I might have even put my hand up again. Hmm maybe not on second thoughts.

Instead all I saw was any AHB brewer that spoke out about the hop quality were immediately dismissed, belittled or shot down with more BS than a politician. Whilst almost simultaneous the same hops were being spruiked it up on the 2nd hop buy thread. Respected brewers comments, who regularly contribute information and solid advice to this forum freely, were completely ignored or discredited or both. And remember this distain was given to the guys that trusted him on his word and supported him in the first BB. What will he do when simular reports start rolling in about the second BB especially when there is no room to move? 

My guess he will disappear back into thin air without a care. I can only imagine what would happen if it was discovered that these hops were in fact some way harmful to peoples health? Its hard to sue a beggar or so they say.

What AHBers need to wary of is, DH is only doing these BB's to stroke and massage his large over active ego. He has no interest in telling you the truth about the quality of these hops nor in providing brewers with a cheaper but quality alternative. DH is purely self interested, he has no respect for his fellow brewer or their abilities. He just wants to stick one up the retailers. Its all about ego and free hops to him. Until he starts telling the truth and admitting that the brewers commenting on the hops know what they are talking about I will be avoiding anything to do with him, his pathetic podcast and especially his BB's. Im fully expecting him to try every which way he can to discredit me in a vain attempt to keep a little credibility.

This is the very last time I will be drawn into this. But I guess I'm telling you guys nothing you didn't already know.

Cheers Chappo

DH = Dick Head


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## bum (7/1/10)

1962 words!!!


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## Bizier (7/1/10)

Can I put a suggestion before everyone brewing with these and/or thinking of composting them... ?

A little crystal and any old DME/basemalt you have around Ful vol 1.040 boil, all your unwanted hops at 5 mins, then some more DME (after transferring from trub) and dex to get a trub-loss-masterpiece IIPA.


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## NickB (7/1/10)

Well Said Chappo. Bloody long, but agree 110% with your sentiment.

Buyer Beware as they say.

Cheers


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## Mantis (7/1/10)

Well said Chappo, and I have kept mostly out of all of it, except being one of the doubters from the start and said so. 
I am not the sort of person to say, "I told you so" , but if I was I reckon now would be the time to say it h34r: 

Mantis *runs off and hides in his shed *


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## manticle (7/1/10)

To my mind the main point is not whether or not the quality is great or up to the same standard of better known hops/hop regions and retailers - that was always a well advertised risk that people took and GS made no bones about it. It was a trial. 

Now that some of the trialling has begun and people are offering their feedback, GS has the gall to call into question, not the most obvious variable in the mix (ie the hops, hops' source, hops' age etc etc) but the brewer's individual skills because of the secret technical discussions he's been having that he can't tell you about.

Not his fault that the hops might be shit (except getting a sample might just have been a little savvy) but the subsequent reaction to it is pure garbage.

GS - you organised a buy, took a risk and asked others to take that risk with you. Fair enough. You copped a bit of flak for it too. Now that it's been done and dusted, when those who supported you through it offer you their honest criticism, you dismiss them as poorly skilled. Whether or not they are poorly skilled I'll leave to competitions, friends and anyone who knows them and has tasted their beer but as far as any kind of people skills go, you are not only poorly skilled but actually mildy retarded. I consider you the Basil Fawlty of bulk buys.


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## bum (7/1/10)

manticle said:


> I consider you the Basil Fawlty of bulk buys.



Mr. Bean

Types like he speaks anyway.


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## benno1973 (7/1/10)

Great work Chappo and Manticle, couldn't have said it better myself. I was impressed that he went ahead with the bulk buy despite the criticism he received, and I was happy to take the risk, but it was annoying that honest feedback was totally ignored. Anyway, you both said it better than me, so I'll leave it there.


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## browndog (7/1/10)

Chappo, man, you have been channeling Pat mate, very well said and could not agree more with you, how stupid of him and patronising to us to tell us that we can't get the best out of the hops because we don't know what we are doing. If he is such a great brewer, why do we not see him name in the comp results?

cheers

Browndog


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## wakkatoo (8/1/10)

jeebus,

I go offline for a couple of weeks due to moving house and telstra being slack and look at what I miss! Haven't had a chance to use my hops yet - they went straight into the freezer the day they arrived (after getting suspicious looks from the postal lady due to the noticeable aroma in the post shop). Everything is primed and ready to use some of the cascade tomorrow - doing a basic APA to test the hops on. After that I'm doing a SMASH lager with the saaz.

We'll see how we go I guess...


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## Snow (8/1/10)

staggalee said:


> It still amazes me that brewers long term and otherwise thought they would be getting top shelf hops for the price they were given.
> Anyway, it`s all over now . The last time I saw the 2nd round list it had about 128 buyers on it. Wonder how that`s travelling?
> 
> stagga.


Stagga, I've been watching these threads the whole time, and not once have I seen someone say they thought they were getting top shelf hops. GLS may have alluded to the fact that he hoped the hops would be great, but I'm pretty sure everyone else involved treated it as an experiment. No one in their right mind would assume they are getting top shelf agricultural produce out of China (other than maybe bamboo).

- Snow.


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## MarkBastard (8/1/10)

FYI the new bulk buy has been called off because apparently everyone is scared to run a distro centre in case people from this forum give them trouble (WTF?).

This whole thing has been truly bizarre.


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## QldKev (8/1/10)

Duff said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> QldKev - that sounds great for hops delivered. Have you had any problems with quality/service? PM me if you wish.
> 
> Cheers.



I have been very happy with the quality and service. I beleive for the quantity of hops at that price point is is a very good deal. I have always had replies to my emails in a very timely manner, and found Niko to be down to earth. The hops when opening the vac bag smell fresh. You may be able to save $2 somewhere else but with the hassles I don't think it is worth the time.

I also tried Puterbaugh Farms as their pricing seems better, but their postage is outrageous. Also after sending them 3 emails I had no response, I gave up on them. If you were going to get several kilo then they may be worth persuing. I don't want to do a bulk buy or stock up for the next 100 years.

I like nikobrew cause I can grab 1lb each of 2 types, and grab a few oz of something to try. I just got 1lb Citra and 1lb of Saaz (to replace those Chinese ones) and 6oz of a test batch. It comes in under the 2.5lb for the cheap postage and I don't have to get massive amounts at a time.

QldKev


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## .DJ. (8/1/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> FYI the new bulk buy has been called off because apparently everyone is scared to run a distro centre in case people from this forum give them trouble (WTF?).
> 
> This whole thing has been truly bizarre.



_"And so are the days of our Bulk Buys...."_


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## Fourstar (8/1/10)

QldKev said:


> I like nikobrew cause I can grab 1lb each of 2 types, and grab a few oz of something to try. I just got 1lb Citra and 1lb of Saaz (to replace those Chinese ones) and 6oz of a test batch. It comes in under the 2.5lb for the cheap postage and I don't have to get massive amounts at a time.
> QldKev



Also very convenient and well priced if you are buying just for yourself. A big bulk buy, competition like hops direct may be better off but im sure niko would try and better the deal.


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## Steve (8/1/10)

Chinese hops to give away:

Cluster: 702gms
Saaz: 756gms
Cascade: 776gms

Either pick up in Canberra or pay for postage. Send me a PM if you want them :lol: 
Cheers
Steve


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## wakkatoo (8/1/10)

Well, I've just done my second hop addition and here is my assessment so far:

The aroma is not the smack you in the face kinda thing. But that could be down to the fact they have not been vacuum sealed and were straight out of the freezer. Colour are a dull green, indicating a loss in freshness. First addition foamed like buggery but hardly a bubble from the second addition. No oil slick observed. Aroma in the kettle is ok, but not as much as you would "normally" expect.

Without having yet tasted a finished product my overall impression is that I got exactly what I expected (and paid) for. Cheap quality hops at a cheap price. 

But I'll use the bloody lot of them and have great fun doing so


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## Katherine (8/1/10)

Steve said:


> Chinese hops to give away:
> 
> Cluster: 702gms
> Saaz: 756gms
> ...


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## Fourstar (8/1/10)

Katie said:


>



brewing again are we KT?


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## Katherine (8/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> brewing again are we KT?



No! Not at the moment F****!


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## Fourstar (8/1/10)

Katie said:


> No! Not at the moment F****!



:unsure: Sorry if i pushed a button! h34r:


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## Ivan Other One (9/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> :unsure: Sorry if i pushed a button! h34r:




Tick, Tick Tick, Tick, BOOM!!!


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## RdeVjun (9/1/10)

I've kept out of all this until now, but one aspect I really do find offensive is this (my emphasis):


> Yes I will come back for the 2010 season.* Under a new name, clean slate*. Look arround October for my return. It will be bigger and better than before. By then the huff and puff would have died down.


Now, old mate is evidently unsatisfied with the state of his own credentials after the affair's self- destruction and values his very own name so highly that he's prepared to just ditch it like a $2 slapper when things get tough, much like a 'bigger and better' 2nd BB. If there was the tiniest remnant of reputation worthy of salvage then it just went crashing down the tube, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Even with a new handle (nb. admins) it should be quite obvious to anyone with half a brain by just keeping an eye out for a self- righteous, loathesome and dysfunctional wanker spouting pretentious grandstanding and unsubstantiated dribble with nothing whatsoever constructive to contribute to the actual brewing of beer, much like a so- called radio show- incomprehensible garbage existing purely in the service of an egotist's one preoccupation.


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## Bribie G (9/1/10)

bum said:


> Dunno but I do recall something pertinent to your post #19. The reason has been given for the phenomenon you've observed. There was an admission that some people who were owed a small refund got nothing and some people got a little extra. If I recall correctly it was about making things a little more fluid on the day. I know this was explained by someone other than the Great Man himself. Perhaps he might wish to repeat the details I've forgotten? There was no account posted of what excess money went where.



There was about $450 left over so GS sent that to me and I picked up bags of $2 and $1 coins from my bank and took them to the hop day and put them in an ice cream bucket at the end of the packing table. From order one to the last one, anyone ordering more than three kilos got a refund of $2 a kilo, less than that they got a refund of $1 a kilo. When the cash ran out near the end of the order, they got nowt so it was a first in best dressed 'adjustment' at the end of the exercise and was a fairly rough and ready attempt to square off the excess cash that had 'arisen' due to the improvement in the Aus dollar when the order was finally paid for by GLS. 







Bonj said:


> I advise anyone that paid money for a product that was not supplied to send a formal letter demanding restitution for the breach of contract. If he doesn't remedy the breach, warn him of your intention to seek restitution in the small claims tribunal.


The only person apart from Chappo who didn't get his hops was KillerRx4 and we have been working through all the yellow satchel stickers with Aus Post my end and his end to see what happened to the bag, it was Aus Post who lost it, not GLS or any of the packing crew.

Just got home from work and I'm having a naughty little nocturnal quaff of an ice cold Chinese smash all-Saaz international Style. It's been lagered and is now around a week in the keg, and I actually quite like it for what it is. No off flavours whatsoever, 120g of hops in various additions.. hits the spot but not a comp winner, I'll take a shedload to BABBs and anyone is free to taste. Also using the Cluster as a Fuggles sub in two UK bitters has resulted in pleasant quaffing ales which I'll bring to BABBs as well. I left DKS a couple of ales at his place yesterday, he can't see anything wrong with the beers. So I'll use mine for the house beers - can't comment on the Cascade or MP as I didn't buy them. 

However I would say that anyone buying a couple of kilos and paying thirty five bucks in the next buy and another thirteen for the post satchel you would probably be better looking at a direct buy from the USA or Ellerslie whatever and get better quality. As far as Chinese hops go, unless a better quality comes on the market via the regular hop dealers, and why not in future, we have UK and NZ hops so why not Chinese - then personally I'm putting them in the 'been there done that' department, but am happy to use up my current 2 kilos during the next few months.


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## bum (9/1/10)

Sorry, Bribie. I guess I remembered your explanation in quite a creative manner. Didn't mean to disperse misinformation.



RdeVjun said:


> I've kept out of all this until now, but one aspect I really do find offensive is this (my emphasis):
> 
> Now, old mate is evidently unsatisfied with the state of his own credentials after the affair's self- destruction and values his very own name so highly that he's prepared to just ditch it like a $2 slapper when things get tough, much like a 'bigger and better' 2nd BB. If there was the tiniest remnant of reputation worthy of salvage then it just went crashing down the tube, at least as far as I'm concerned.



In his defence he has gone on at great length early on in the piece that he hated his current name and wished it had been something else. He has foretold of his resurrection and intention to do it under another name - not much chance of it being swept under the rug that way.

Besides - he'll come back advertising the next one as the sequel to the most successful hop bulk buy of all time and probably won't even acknowledge the negative feedback given by the very small handful of petty, jealous, untalented brewers.


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## browndog (9/1/10)

> He has foretold of his resurrection



Did someone supposedly do that about 2000 years ago, maybe he will call himself Jeebers Cripes


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## bonj (9/1/10)

bum said:


> He has foretold of his resurrection


He's not the messiah! He's just a very naughty boy! :lol: :lol:


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## bradsbrew (9/1/10)

Bonj said:


> He's not the messiah! He's just a very naughty boy! :lol: :lol:




Well he does....Always look on the bright side of chinese hops


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## browndog (10/1/10)

> There was about $450 left over so GS sent that to me and I picked up bags of $2 and $1 coins from my bank and took them to the hop day and put them in an ice cream bucket at the end of the packing table



That is a very interesting bit of information Bribie, as GS said in an earlier post that he was out of pocket on this bulk buy :huh: 

cheers

Browndog


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## Sully (10/1/10)

browndog said:


> That is a very interesting bit of information Bribie, as GS said in an earlier post that he was out of pocket on this bulk buy :huh:
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog






Yeah I recall that..... something smells Chinese hops in the brewery.....


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## brettprevans (16/1/10)

Playing devils advocate here....
With 'the fall out' from the Chinese hop bb, one could see some peoples point of view about being against then. 
Then again I've been involved in almost 10? Various bulk buys, organized 3 and never had a problem. Never of this magnatude though. There is something to be said for complexity I guess

I haven't brewed in a couple months so haven't tried them yet. Judging by the reaction it's going to be interesting using up 3kg. Mega late hopped ipa may have to be the way to go. Throw in 500g in 30L. That should use them up.


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## browndog (16/1/10)

> Throw in 500g in 30L. That should use them up.


you will need that amount to get any flavour unfortunately.

cheers

Browndog


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## peas_and_corn (16/1/10)

Tomorrow I'll be making a SMASH beer with Marco Polo, I'll post some thoughts about it in the flavour of the week thread.


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## brettprevans (21/1/10)

anyone notice that craftbrewer is having a clearance special on chinese hops. $1.50 per 90g. LMAO


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## Supra-Jim (21/1/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> anyone notice that craftbrewer is having a clearance special on chinese hops. $1.50 per 90g. LMAO



I believe you need to show 'proof' that your brewing skills are sufficient to use these hops!  

Cheers SJ


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## Tim (21/1/10)

Anyone noticed that Craftbrewer Radio missed an episode? Could this be fallout?


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## Adamt (21/1/10)

I think he's figuring out how to put his despisal of AHB into words he can pronounce incorrectly.


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## Supra-Jim (21/1/10)

Tim said:


> Anyone noticed that Craftbrewer Radio missed an episode? Could this be fallout?



Quite possible that the episode went ahead, you just didn't have the listening skills to hear it!  

Cheers SJ


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## bum (21/1/10)

Adamt said:


> I think he's figuring out how to put his despisal of AHB into words he can pronounce incorrectly.



"BUNCH OF STINKY POO-HEADS!"


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## chappo1970 (21/1/10)

He's been takin' care of... 
For Sale 

Concrete booties used only once. Will have to retrieve yourself from Picnic Bay area


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## TidalPete (21/1/10)

My only attempt at an Aussie Ale using all Cluster (We all know Aussie Ales have little flavour & no aroma) resulted in no flavour, no aroma. With this hop schedule I had hoped for some flavour but no aroma. Got zilch from the fresh keg but live in hope.  

15g = 11.8% IBU FWH @ 90
25g = 8.3% IBU @ 15
60g = 14 .6% IBU @ 10

Total IBU = 34.7

Not complaining as we all went into this hop buy with our eyes wide open & can't complain about an experiment gone wrong when it cost SBA.

Think of the fun posts we've read.  

TP

Correction --- After another 5 days from the initial tasting some flavour is coming through.


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## andytork (21/1/10)

browndog said:


> Did someone supposedly do that about 2000 years ago, maybe he will call himself Jeebers Cripes



Or wouldn't he just refer to himself as "the original craftbrewer Jesus Christ" ? (Sorry couldn't help it) :blink:


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## QldKev (21/1/10)

Tim said:


> Anyone noticed that Craftbrewer Radio missed an episode? Could this be fallout?



His mum sent him to his room...
he is not allowed out yet

QldKev


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## brettprevans (22/1/10)

TidalPete said:


> My only attempt at an Aussie Ale using all Cluster (We all know Aussie Ales have little flavour & no aroma) resulted in no flavour, no aroma. With this hop schedule I had hoped for some flavour but no aroma. Got zilch from the fresh keg but live in hope.
> 
> 15g = 11.8% IBU FWH @ 90
> 25g = 8.3% IBU @ 15
> ...


Rhats really interesting tidal. I've got 1kg of cluster so it good to get an idea of the amounts I'll have to use. 

As u said we went into this with eyes open about an untried hop. 
Maybe for an IPA we need to use a full 1kg! That would be a great 'empty kettle' pic


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## QldKev (22/1/10)

TidalPete said:


> Correction --- After another 5 days from the initial tasting some flavour is coming through.



TP, if you made it again would you up to schedule? And also how is the taste, its it nice or is it a hop that that you would rather not be in there.

QldKev


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## MVZOOM (23/1/10)

So I watched this affair from afar - no doubt I have missed a bunch of detail through the process and am a little ignorant, due to the complex nature of the issue(s) at hand. Would someone mind - please - summarising what's gone wrong here? 

As I see it:

1) Bloke goes out on a limb and creates the Bulk Buy
2) No-one really understands the quality of the product 
3) Bloke disclaims (2) through the course of the transaction
4) Hops get delivered and the quality isn't the same as 'normal' hops ~$90 per kg
5) Folks are pissed off

Fill me in, 'cause as it sits and I see it, no-one knew how the hops would be, and folks took a punt on the quality. I've organised a couple of bulk buys in the past and it's a bit painful sometimes - ie.. people using different scales and getting 11kg of grain instead of 12.5kg etc. 

But in this instance, people walked into the transaction 'buyer aware'. So what's the problem? Again, genuine question, I am ignorant, can someone enlighten me?

Cheers -Mike


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## bum (23/1/10)

You missed 4.5) Bloke is a cockhead (causing 5)


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## brettprevans (23/1/10)

As I understand it. The fallout arose from a proposed 2nd bulk buy and it was still being touted as top quality hops even though all reports had been to contrary. Anyone who thought the quality was poor was told buy the person that they were just crap brewers. 
That's how I understand it.
Edit: oh and that all the hops fell out of the bags they were packed in... Hence bulk buy fallout haha boom tish


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## bum (23/1/10)

That's the same way I've perceived it.


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## manticle (23/1/10)

MVZOOM said:


> So I watched this affair from afar - no doubt I have missed a bunch of detail through the process and am a little ignorant, due to the complex nature of the issue(s) at hand. Would someone mind - please - summarising what's gone wrong here?
> 
> As I see it:
> 
> ...



You may have missed the bit where a lot of buyers gave feedback on the hops (which was asked for by CB/GS) without blaming CB/GS.

The reaction to that was basically "I have been talking to some special people but I can't tell you who they are and we all reckon it's not the hops but the brewers who are crap, see ya next time I want to do a buy"

There were a lot of people who were supportive and anti naysayer (including myself despite not being involved) but the reaction from GS to genuine feedback (I repeat - prompted from GS in the first place)sucked arse. Much of it was deleted from here in case you struggle to find it.

The effort he went to and the risks he took were fantastic and I couldn't say a bad word about them. The response he had to his fellow brewers left a lot to be desired.


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## MVZOOM (24/1/10)

Wow, ok, yeah - I get it now. 

To be honest, his initial posts on the subject kind of indicated that he's a bit of a nob - plus having the most complicated BB setup I've ever seen. Thanks for filling me in!

Cheers - Mike


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## samhighley (25/1/10)

MVZOOM said:


> his initial posts on the subject kind of indicated that he's a bit of a nob



This was why I never contemplated getting involved.


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## Mantis (25/1/10)

Sammy said:


> This was why I never contemplated getting involved.




+1

Plus I tuned into his radio show and well, that did it for me. Cockhead


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## samhighley (26/1/10)

Mantis said:


> Plus I tuned into his radio show and well, that did it for me. Cockhead



Haha, I did exactly the same thing, with exactly the same result.


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## Bribie G (26/1/10)

For those who actually bought the hops:

Did two very similar UK best bitters with 50g Chinese Cluster 90 mins and a different UK hop 10 mins. 

The first one had a harsh bitterness much as reported, especially re the Marco Polo which I didn't buy, and I thought "oh no, here we go". Actually it smoothed out a bit over the life of the keg. I had used 20g Challenger for 10 mins and no chilled. This point is interesting because when brew #2 was ready, it didn't have that harsh twang and it was a quite acceptable best bitter from the keg. I'd done about 8 extra bottles as well and on cracking one yesterday - the keg ran out last week - there wasn't anything 'off' in the flavour and bitterness was not OTT for a 50g addition. The finishing hop for #2 was Northdown which itself has a hefty 8.5% AA. I'd put the twang in #1 down to the Challenger.

Also the use of the Challenger as a late hop in my current Burton Pale seems to have left a bit of a twang as well, I won't be using that hop for a late addition from now on. Anyway my experience with the Cluster has prompted me to use 50g of it today in my Oatmeal Invalid Stout.

I'll bring bottles of #1, #2 and my Beijing Belgian (C Saaz + Styrians) to BABBs on Thursday so anyone there is welcome to a taste. Also my all C Saaz lager which is lacking aroma but, with a touch of Hersbrucker in the finish would make a most acceptable house lager and quaffer. There is a very slight 'vegetal' flavour to it and I'll be getting opinions about whether thats from the hops or maybe from DMS which I understand can be accentuated by no chilling. 

:icon_cheers:


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## browndog (26/1/10)

BribieG said:


> For those who actually bought the hops:
> 
> Did two very similar UK best bitters with 50g Chinese Cluster 90 mins and a different UK hop 10 mins.
> 
> ...




Looking forward to trying them Michael, I've dumped my C cascade, but have a kilo of Marco Polo and am pondering how to use it.


cheers

Browndog


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