# Apple Cider & Ginger Beer



## BrewsStraw (16/5/12)

Greetings veteran and learned brewers.

I have just joined the forum, (thank you Aussiebrewer.com), and have just picked up a Giner Beer ... Pack and an apple cider ... pack from ... ....... ......,

What i was seeking to know, is, other than using the ready to go packs (which is no guarantee what goes into these packs as there is no specific information that goes into them,
As a newbie, I wanted to know a few things;

A. Apples, can you make apple cider from apples, (obviosuly yes, as its been done for many years, but), can you use a corer to remove the bitter core and seeds, and then stick X amount of apples into the blender and liquify the apples, and then work from the 100% smooth pure liquid as per using apple juice recipes?

B. Ginger Beer, basically same as point A. but substitute AS for GB and raw/frew ginger.....

I ask these questions as;
we all know that the price of grapes and wine is about to go back up again.
&
i am not a real fan of beer other than Dragon beer (thank you jamaica), and corona....
&
am seeking something relatively cheaper and more healthy, (and yes before you mention it i looked into wines, but they are now starting to give me a headache from 1 glass of wine a night with dinner, and is nearly impossible to track down an organic and/or sulfide/preservative free wine that doesnt cost the earth).

I am seeking someone that has made apple cider and/or ginger beer from scratch, and knows the ins and outs of how to and what to and what not to do.....

items i have at the moment;
... pack of ginger beer
... pack of apple cider
... ....... ...... brew kit/starter kit
a brother-in-law that has and does already brew his own beers (but i would prefer to not lean on him for time or info as he has a fulltime job and 3kids)

can anyone help out please?

ALSO;
STAINLESS STEEL MIXERS: where can i get, i would liek to preferabley get the paint mixer type that i can just attach to a drill, so i can accurately mix and thoroughly mix the whole batch in one go.

once i have gotten confident with the brew pack, and then brewing from fresh apples, i would like to them branch out and do things such as making combination recipes such as appl and berry, or apple and ginger? again this combination recipe would probably be further down the track but, would love to know if there are any good recipes incorporating other fruits or gentle/sweet tastes apple and banana?
:icon_chickcheers:


----------



## pmunny (16/5/12)

BrewsStraw said:


> Greetings veteran and learned brewers.
> 
> I have just joined the forum, (thank you Aussiebrewer.com), and have just picked up a Giner Beer ... Pack and an apple cider ... pack from ... ....... ......,
> 
> ...


crushing apples is a pain in the ...., google apple scratters, you really have to smash them before you crush/squeeze them.
try using the 3ltr pet apple juice from the aisles at coles/aldi with some good yeast and youll be fine


----------



## BrewsStraw (16/5/12)

pmunny said:


> crushing apples is a pain in the ...., google apple scratters, you really have to smash them before you crush/squeeze them.
> try using the 3ltr pet apple juice from the aisles at coles/aldi with some good yeast and youll be fine



Pmunny, thanks, but same problem again with cost and ingredients.

I have heard three are alot of bad juices on the market, and that C word place is on my ban list, along with the big Mc place.
I find it rediculous that smaller items/portions/service, higher prices, and less taste, or in C's example, barely fresh, i find it rediculous that they can think that can keep increasing the prices... sorry, ill stay on topic and stop ranting about useless corporations....

I would like to get on a farmer direct coop if possible to get hold of fresh apples that i know specificalyl what has been used on them and where they have come from, if not then i might look at the markets or as a last resort W.........

thanks for you tip Punny but i am wanting to also know if it is possible to not crush or squeeze but to actually use a blender. i have seen some recipes that satye to use a juicer, but why can the whole apple be used (obviosuly after you remove the core)


----------



## Luek (16/5/12)

I'm strictly regurgitating advice here as I've never made (a large amount of) apple juice on my own, but I've asked similar questions here not too long ago, so I'll pass it on:
Using a juicer is inefficient for extracting juice. A lot gets wasted through discarded pulp. This I've seen on a small scale (juiced 2-3 apples at a friend's place, you end up with hardly anything... not to mention the cleanup).
Blending (I asked about using a food processor) I imagine would be a massive pain to do and leads you back to inefficiency as you're left with pulp.
Extracting juice from pulp without some sort of press is a massive pain.

You really need a scratter and press or you're wasting a lot of time, effort, and apples.

Then sourcing apples is another hurdle... very regional. Then you have to treat it to remove wild yeasts and infections, or all your effort may go to waste. This involves either pasteurisation, or chemicals (camden tablets etc).

Before you take the leap with the above, preservative free apple juice from "evil corporations" is worth a try - you may just be happy with 20L of aldi apple juice with some yeast sprinkled on.
Don't forget you can use this juice as a base and experiment with varying extra ingredients.

About ginger beer, there are a few good recipes on here, both kit based and from scratch. The main concern with 'from scratch' ginger beer is the cost of ginger.
I recently made ginger beer with cooper's ginger beer kit, about a kilo of boiled grated ginger, dark brown sugar, cinnamon stick, and some other things.
Mainly made if for the missus as I'm not big on the ol' ginger but anyone who had a crack said it was quite nice.


----------



## Greg.L (16/5/12)

BrewsStraw said:


> thanks for you tip Punny but i am wanting to also know if it is possible to not crush or squeeze but to actually use a blender. i have seen some recipes that satye to use a juicer, but why can the whole apple be used (obviosuly after you remove the core)



Obviously at some point you have to separate the juice from the pulp. It won't be any easier to do that after fermentation. People have been making cider for a long time and the best way to do it is from juice. There's no point trying to re-invent the wheel.
If you make cider from apples the important thing is good quality, well ripened fruit. Cider from unripe, tasteless apples will not be worth making.


----------



## nathan_madness (16/5/12)

I don't think that you can get much cheaper than $1 per liter for Apple juice from any of the big 3 supermarkets. I have made over 100 batches using this juice and never had an infection. Remember sterilise, sterilise and sterilise some more.

One way I found it easy to ferment with minimal sterilisation is to get the 3L juice bottle remove the plastic cap leaving the tear off seal in place. Remove the poly seal that is inside the plastic cap drill 12mm hole in the plastic cap and then cut a slightly bigger hole in the poly cap. Throw the cap, the poly seal, your rubber grommet and your airlock in steriliser and give them a good shake. While they are soaking tear off your bottle seal pore out a half a glass and add your yeast. Then reassemble your cap and fit your grommet and airlock add boiling water to airlock and screw cap back on bottle.


----------



## manticle (16/5/12)

BrewsStraw said:


> Pmunny, thanks, but same problem again with cost and ingredients.
> 
> I have heard three are alot of bad juices on the market, and that C word place is on my ban list, along with the big Mc place.
> I find it rediculous that smaller items/portions/service, higher prices, and less taste, or in C's example, barely fresh, i find it rediculous that they can think that can keep increasing the prices... sorry, ill stay on topic and stop ranting about useless corporations....
> ...



As Greg says, you want juice, not mush.

Check http://www.cider.org.uk/, ignore the insistence that sulphites are necessary (I find they are not) and you will get many tips on making cider. 

You can make cider from apples if you are prepared to do the work.

You can also make ginger beer from scratch. Here is one idea: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=30492


----------



## BrewsStraw (17/5/12)

$1 per litre?! jesus where do you get yuour juice from? normally costs like $3-10 around my area.....

what i wanted to know is from someone who has made apple cider from scratch is, if i manage to blender, and then put through a very fine seive, yes i know the juice would be cloudy, but, if i have taken out the core then essentially i should be able to work with this fine liquid yes/no?

yes i know they have been making it for many years with mashers, crushers, press's and other fun torture ... um i mean agricultural devices  but that was before the invention of belnders and food processors...... and as far as i know alot of the health and nutrients in fruit and veg is just under the skin.....

if i can make with just removing the core and skin then i would be happy, but would like to try and waste as least as much as i can....

anyone who has made Apple Cider or Ginger Beer before....?

also if you were that guy in the brew shop near menai last saturday drop me a line.... apparently you just left as i came in and you know alot about apple cider and bratworst......


----------



## manticle (17/5/12)

I have tried with a food processor and you are in for a world of frustration if you also want to have a crack.

Cored and chopped into smaller pieces. The problem is that extracting the juice (or separating from the pulp) is very, very inefficient. I also burnt out a part of the food processor trying to get it to do its thing (and it was a decent enough processor). You need to run 40+ kg of apples through to get 20 L or less of juice.

I know you think you may have re-invented the wheel and really, really want it to work (believe me I have been there) so have a go by all means. I'm not going to tell you it can't work but in my experience it doesn't work very well.

Even after sitting all the pulp in a fermenter, hoping that the pulp would sink and I could rack off it, I still had to try and squeeze the juice out through a stocking after about 4 days and I got such a shit yield, I had to top up with supermarket juice anyway. Cider really is just juice + yeast (and even the yeast is provided if you want to go down the breton or scrumpy style road) but extracting the juice has methods that work and methods that are rubbish. Food processors, in my experience are rubbish. I wasted my time. You can waste yours too if you like.

I've bought juice from supermarkets for around $1 per litre too but like you, I'd like to be avoiding supermarkets where I can.

In this thread at least Greg L and myself have made cider from scratch - I'm talking from experience, not google-fu.


----------



## troopa (17/5/12)

$1 per liter juice at aldi
Manticle is 100% in everything he said 

Last year i built my own scratter and press and that was alot of fun... picking, washing, struggling with version one of my scratter and nearly destroying my press from an over zealous friend on the jack is a hell of learning experiemce in to making cider. 
Totally worth it though.


----------



## Greg.L (17/5/12)

Making a press doesn't have to be expensive, if you can get some scrap 4x2s you can make one for well under $100. I used a gum tree for the uprights and a cross beam I made myself with a chainsaw, almost free, except for some plywood.
gum-tree press

For a scratter I use a garden mulcher, works a treat, i got it for free from a relative who wasn't using it.


----------



## mikec (17/5/12)

I don't make huge quantities of cider but I do make a bit now and then.
Juices ain't juices!

This stuff is available at Harris Farm and has given me the best results (I've tried heaps of different brands of apple juice).

Once the yeast has settled out it makes a really clean, clear cider, similar to Montieth's apple cider but not quite as light in colour.


----------



## troopa (17/5/12)

And this is budget beats bling... i get under 60% y8eld and i think greg was over. Grrr


----------



## Greg.L (17/5/12)

Troopa said:


> And this is budget beats bling... i get under 60% y8eld and i think greg was over. Grrr



No, I get around 60% or a bit under, but it depends how long you want to wait for the juice to drip out. I think anything 50% or better is a good result. Some get up to 75% but you need a good press for that. What you can't avoid is all the effort of loading the press and emptying, but that's all part of the fun, or so I tell myself.


----------



## troopa (17/5/12)

Thinking of my next press already after going to a winery and seeing their 150tonne setup with stainless perferated basket.. all depending if swmbo will allows the funds 

Sorry getting off topic

Greg would if be possible for someone to make a sandwich press like yours for the kitchen with say breadboards? and maybe a canterlever for say upto 5litres?


----------



## Greg.L (17/5/12)

Yeah, you're exactly right troopa. You can adapt the normal "rack and cloth" press design for any circumstance, use whatever you have handy and be creative. My first press used an old workbench.






Only about 50% efficient but the cider tasted good.


----------



## manticle (17/5/12)

Greg: do you ever make cider the Normandy/breton/scrumpy way?

Did it turn out well?


----------



## troopa (17/5/12)

Hmm scrumpy... i read its made with a hunk of meat thrown into the fermenting vessel... please say i was reading wrong

edit.. rotting meat at that


----------



## manticle (17/5/12)

Chicken and other meat has historically been added to some scrumpys. Supposedly it was added if the ferment had stalled as it was a source of nitrogen and therefore a yeast nutrient (according to proux and she recommends against the practice).

I'm more interested in the natural fermenation side of things - like lambic or italian style wine.

Ever tried thatcher's somerset vintage oaked cider? To make a cider like that at home would be pretty special.

Breton ciders also use the yeast naturally present on the apple skin but I've never heard of animal carcasses being commonly used within. The few Breton and Normandy ciders I've tried have been fantastic and blow most modern commercial semi sweet apple flavoured soda waters sky high.


----------



## Greg.L (17/5/12)

Breton style cider is made with keeving, it requires good temperature control (10C or lower) and high quality fruit. Scrumpy is a term in England for farmhouse cider which is sold in bulk - you bring your own container and buy 10 or 20L of cider direct from the farmer. Said to be cheap but variable quality. It's not really a style, just basic farmhouse cider.
I just try to grow the best fruit I can, if you want good cider you need good fruit.


----------



## manticle (17/5/12)

I'm mainly interested in whether you've tried any kind of process of natural fermentation and what the results were?


----------



## Greg.L (17/5/12)

manticle said:


> I'm mainly interested in whether you've tried any kind of process of natural fermentation and what the results were?



No I use a cultured yeast and MLF culture. I like to get the fermentation done fairly quick.


----------



## punkin (18/5/12)

Those who are saying that juicers are inefficient are talking without a knowledge base.
Saying that you put 3 apples through a juicer therefore it's a bad method?

If the OP had done any research at all on here he would have surely read the 5 page thread a couple threads down the page from this one.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...61282&st=40

I get almost 70% efficiency from a store bought mid range ($200) juicer.

I have 70l of cider that i'll have to deal with shortly as it's almost finnished fermenting. Aside from the cost of the yeast and the acid blend it was for the cost of fuel and a counter lunch for a nice day with the missus picking roadside apples.

There's plenty of other people doing the same thing. Here's how a kiwi mate dealt with a tonne of free apples this year..

http://medicinalpurposes.wordpress.com/201...-a-cider-press/

What you are suggesting is doable, but you need to add a second step after getting the apples into pieces. A juicer removes the second step. I would not be wasting the cores or the skins.
I don't think you really concieve the quantities required either, it's a couple hours work just trimming the grubs out of a few bins of apples and juicing them, coring and peeling would turn it into a day.


----------



## troopa (18/5/12)

punkin said:


> Those who are saying that juicers are inefficient are talking without a knowledge base.
> Saying that you put 3 apples through a juicer therefore it's a bad method?
> 
> If the OP had done any research at all on here he would have surely read the 5 page thread a couple threads down the page from this one.
> ...




Your supposed to trim the grubs out?? 
I though they added the speacial flavour and nitrogen


----------



## punkin (18/5/12)

The bulk of em anyway


----------



## manticle (18/5/12)

punkin said:


> Those who are saying that juicers are inefficient are talking without a knowledge base.
> Saying that you put 3 apples through a juicer therefore it's a bad method?
> 
> If the OP had done any research at all on here he would have surely read the 5 page thread a couple threads down the page from this one.
> ...



I was talking about a food processor not a juicer.

I've juiced around 30-40 kg of apples in a small bench top juicer before and while it was a messy pain in the arse, it results in juice. Food processor results in pulp.


----------



## punkin (18/5/12)

Apologies if i somehow made you think my comments were directed at you Manticle. Obviously you were talking about using a food processor, i'm not dense enough to miss that.

My comments were directed entirely at this stuff.




Luek said:


> I'm strictly regurgitating advice here as I've never made (a large amount of) apple juice on my own, but I've asked similar questions here not too long ago, so I'll pass it on:
> Using a juicer is inefficient for extracting juice. A lot gets wasted through discarded pulp. This I've seen on a small scale (juiced 2-3 apples at a friend's place, you end up with hardly anything... not to mention the cleanup).
> Blending (I asked about using a food processor) I imagine would be a massive pain to do and leads you back to inefficiency as you're left with pulp.
> Extracting juice from pulp without some sort of press is a massive pain.
> ...


----------



## Greg.L (18/5/12)

Whatever method you use you want to ferment juice, not pulp. So long as your juice is mostly free of solids, it isn't the most critical thing for quality. Even if you leave in grubs and some leaves, the cider will taste as good. It will take hours and leave you filthy with a ringing in your ears, but is well worth it. Vintage time is the best time of year, whether you use apples or grapes.


----------



## manticle (18/5/12)

punkin said:


> Apologies if i somehow made you think my comments were directed at you Manticle. Obviously you were talking about using a food processor, i'm not dense enough to miss that.
> 
> My comments were directed entirely at this stuff.



Ah OK.

Carry on.


----------



## BrewsStraw (3/7/12)

so i found a nice and LONG 700mm mixer that doesnt cost the earth
stainless steel
$55 from
http://www.phillro.com.au/products.php?mai...mp;productID=78

was funny the guys form south sydney tools wanted to charge me $380 for something thicker and bigger but basically the same thing


----------



## nathan_madness (3/7/12)

BrewsStraw said:


> so i found a nice and LONG 700mm mixer that doesnt cost the earth
> stainless steel
> $55 from
> http://www.phillro.com.au/products.php?mai...mp;productID=78
> ...



What are you going to do with that? If you are planing to use it as a scratter I don't think that the apples will pass by the outer rings.


----------



## BrewsStraw (3/7/12)

nathan_madness said:


> What are you going to do with that? If you are planing to use it as a scratter I don't think that the apples will pass by the outer rings.



no, i was just saying for mixing liquids rather than using a long spoon and hurting your wrist hehehe


----------



## nathan_madness (3/7/12)

BrewsStraw said:


> no, i was just saying for mixing liquids rather than using a long spoon and hurting your wrist hehehe


Oh, wow that is a bit full on to mix with. I like it!


----------



## Luek (4/7/12)

Since my post I've bought and used a breville juice fountain, and I feel bad about my previous post.
One I used prior was a $60 job and was messy and left visibly wet waste.


----------



## BrewsStraw (4/7/12)

Luek said:


> Since my post I've bought and used a breville juice fountain, and I feel bad about my previous post.
> One I used prior was a $60 job and was messy and left visibly wet waste.



huh?
are you talking about juicers and using them to make the cider from scratch?

i noticed there is also a juicer on the market that is a silent juicer.....


----------



## Luek (5/7/12)

Yeah, I've been buying small amounts (2-3kg) of apples and pears and using the juicer. REsults will have to wait several months... unfortunately it never occurred to me to filter until the other day so I'll have to filter my pink lady post ferment. It is full of crud. The others will be okay I think ..


----------



## BrewsStraw (5/7/12)

Luek said:


> Yeah, I've been buying small amounts (2-3kg) of apples and pears and using the juicer. REsults will have to wait several months... unfortunately it never occurred to me to filter until the other day so I'll have to filter my pink lady post ferment. It is full of crud. The others will be okay I think ..



if its already fermented and try tasting it with the crud in it and just shake or mix it up, remember, anything in the container during fermentation will retain a certain amount of the fermented mateiral, if you take out stuff you could reduce the flavour or alcohol content, thats why you are mean to filter it pre fermentation


----------

