# Dry Stout Recipe Check Please



## SJW (24/1/08)

I have not made a Stout for years and some of my early attempts were crap. Alway stuffing arounf with Black malt, RB, Oats, Lactose and all the other shite under the sun. So this time I want to keep it simple and dry.

Dry Stout 
Dry Stout 


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 32.05 L 
Boil Time: 75 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4500.00 gm Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 88.24 % 
200.00 gm Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 3.92 % 
200.00 gm Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.92 % 
200.00 gm Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 3.92 % 
30.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 34.0 IBU 
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.6 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.73 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 % 
Bitterness: 38.6 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 57.7 EBC Color: Color 

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 5100.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 12.16 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 90.0 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.2 PH 

Single Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 15.00 L of water at 73.7 C 67.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 10.00 L of water at 96.6 C 78.0 C 



STEVE


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## warrenlw63 (24/1/08)

Yum! B) Lock and load. Looks good to me.

Edit: Just noticed no flaked barley? You'd want at least 10% in there Steve.

Warren -


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## SJW (24/1/08)

Thanks Warren, just the bloke I hoped would have a look for me.


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## warrenlw63 (24/1/08)

No worries Steve. I just thought that no flaked barley would alter the texture in a negative way. It is traditional after all.  

Warren -


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## SJW (24/1/08)

Would some Uncle Tobys Oats do the same thing as Flaked Barley?


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## warrenlw63 (24/1/08)

Similar but not the same Steve. Just call it an Oatmeal dry. :lol: 

You'll probably need a b-glucan rest too.

Warren -


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## Beer Guy (24/1/08)

90 *C sparge bit warm most recomend no higher than about 77 but I am not familiar with your system or the methodology behind that choice.


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## SJW (24/1/08)

It's cool Beerguy, thats just the HLT Temp. After 2 equel sparges with water at around 90 the mash still wont be over 80 deg C. I dont know why I even bother adjusting that in Beersmith as after I mash in I just let the HLT goduring the mash until near boiling then switch it off as mash out temp is in mid 90's anyway.
Back to the Beta glucan rest. I never though of doing this for a Stout, but it's a good idea. Would 30mins at 40 or 45 deg C do? or is a protein rest at 52 going to do the same job?


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## drsmurto (24/1/08)

I find that hard to believe since you are doing a mash out and the mash temp is 78. Wouldnt take too many litres of 90C water to bring mash over 80. Unless you get a very quick drop in temp between sparges......


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## warrenlw63 (24/1/08)

Maybe like my setup. If you pump your sparge water over with a March you get some temp drops. My sparge water usually sits around 85 degrees in the HLT to bring the grainbed up to around 75 degrees for the second sparge.

Steve I reckon 20-30 minutes at 45 degrees should cover you. For b-glucans.

Warren -


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## newguy (24/1/08)

Steve,

I'm by no means a stout expert but a member of my homebrew club sure is. He consistently takes medals for his stouts, and he wrote a good article for our newsletter. It can be found in our September 2006 WHN (Worthouse News) on our club's website found here. On the left side of the page is a link for the WHN, follow that and download the Sept '06 edition. His article starts on page 12.


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## SJW (24/1/08)

> I find that hard to believe since you are doing a mash out and the mash temp is 78. Wouldnt take too many litres of 90C water to bring mash over 80. Unless you get a very quick drop in temp between sparges......


With mash out temp at 96.6 deg C i don't have much say in it. Anyway after 53+ AllGrainers I got the temps losses thing sorted ages ago.


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## SJW (24/1/08)

Anyway I added some flaked barley so I can't wait till it cools down a bit and I will kick this one off.

Dry Stout 
Dry Stout 


Type: All Grain
Date: 15/04/2010 
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Boil Size: 32.05 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4000.00 gm Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 74.07 % 
800.00 gm Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 14.81 % 
200.00 gm Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 3.70 % 
200.00 gm Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.70 % 
200.00 gm Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 3.70 % 
30.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 33.5 IBU 
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.5 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.96 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 % 
Bitterness: 38.0 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 57.7 EBC Color: Color 

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 5400.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 19.46 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.2 PH 

Double Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
20 min Beta Glucan Add 8.00 L of water at 52.7 C 45.0 C 
60 min Saccrification Add 10.00 L of water at 89.1 C 67.0 C


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## johnno (25/1/08)

Good timing SJW. Will be brewing one today or tomorrow.

Just the info I am looking for without searching too far. Will post recipe later.

cheers
johnno


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## johnno (25/1/08)

Here's mine.

Just heating water now.


Amount Item Type % or IBU 

4.50 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 83.33 % 

0.50 kg Barley, Flaked (3.3 EBC) Grain 9.26 % 

0.20 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 3.70 % 

0.16 kg Roasted Malt (Joe White) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 2.96 % 

0.04 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 0.74 % 

28.30 gm Super Alpha [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 30.7 IBU 







Beer Profile



Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG

Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG 

Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG 

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.64 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 % 

Bitterness: 30.7 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l 

Est Color: 53.9 EBC 
​


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## warrenlw63 (25/1/08)

Looks great Johnno.

Only one nitpick. I'd push your roasted barley levels up to that of the choc malt. You're probably going to be a touch underwhelmed roast-wise otherwise.  

Warren -


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## SJW (25/1/08)

Looks great mate. Almost the same as mine without the Amber. Are u going a 45 deg C Beta Glucan or just a straight infusion?

Steve


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## SJW (25/1/08)

> 0.16 kg Roasted Malt (Joe White) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 2.96 %
> 
> 0.04 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 0.74 %



Whats the diff. with these 2?


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## therook (25/1/08)

SJW said:


> Looks great mate. Almost the same as mine without the Amber. Are u going a 45 deg C Beta Glucan or just a straight infusion?
> 
> Steve




Straight infusion is all you need


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## newguy (25/1/08)

SJW said:


> Whats the diff. with these 2?



Roasted barley is barley that hasn't been malted. Roasted malt is just that - roasted malted barley.

.....Which brings to mind something I found interesting. I knew that Scottish beers tend to be lightly hopped because historically the British would heavily tax hops exported to Scotland. I recently found out that the reason why the Irish used roasted and flaked barley in their stouts was that the British taxed malted barley.


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## SJW (25/1/08)

> Roasted barley is barley that hasn't been malted. Roasted malt is just that - roasted malted barley.



I dont bother with RM anymore, I just up the RB. I have gone way off Black Malt after using way too much in a stout once and that burn charcol taste has stayed with me ever since. Sorry for not explaining my dumb question before.


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## newguy (25/1/08)

SJW said:


> Just wondering why u would bother with RM, when you could just up the RB.



Different taste from each. It's a slight difference, but it's there.


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## SJW (25/1/08)

I have changed the name in my Beersmith to BLACK MALT so I never make that mistake again.


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## johnno (25/1/08)

G'day all.
The reason for the 160 gm of Roasted malt and 40 gm roasted barley is because i only had 160gm of the roasted malt.

Yep warren I should have used more of that roasted barley. Just realised it is not too dark when i mashed in. 

I've been blundering around the house doing odd jobs and probably wasn't thinking too hard about it.

This is more of a bribe brew for a porter/stout lover so it should be ok for them.  

Just a single infusion.

May brew something more summery tommorrow or Sunday. Like a nice wheat.

cheers
johnno


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## milpod (25/1/08)

I tried a STOUT MANY years ago,hated it,would my new found pallete enjoy a stout now?


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## SJW (25/1/08)

> I tried a STOUT MANY years ago,hated it,would my new found pallete enjoy a stout now?



OH Yes, there is nothing to hate about a good stout, it's all very very good.

Steve


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## SJW (25/1/08)

So how would 50g or 100g of Black go in my stout?


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## bugwan (25/1/08)

milpod said:


> I tried a STOUT MANY years ago,hated it,would my new found pallete enjoy a stout now?



Depends on where you got the stout from  

A well made stout is one of the most beautiful experiences a palate can enjoy. So much depth, so much going on in there... Aside from some complex Belgians, they're a great workout for a good palate. I say try again, you won't be disappointed!

If you're not too keen on the dark malt taste, try a smoother oatmeal stout instead of a dry Irish perhaps?


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## bugwan (25/1/08)

SJW said:


> So how would 50g or 100g of Black go in my stout?



I've only made a couple of AG stouts, non of which contained Black Malt, but those I've tried with BM gave an almost ashy flavour that hung on the back of the tongue for a while. Not my favourite aftertaste, but some love it as a buffer to the bitterness...

Sorry I can't help more on that one...


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## Guest Lurker (25/1/08)

SJW said:


> So how would 50g or 100g of Black go in my stout?



If you keep it to about 1% of the grain bill it will lend an extra bit of complexity in the dark malts, and a a dry crisp almost bitter finish which I personally like. You may need to drop the hops by a couple of IBUs to compensate for that finish. If you get up to 5% black malt you will be in the charcoal, ash, chewing on a heat bead type flavours, which need a lot of other flavours to back them up, or stand out.


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## SJW (26/1/08)

> If you keep it to about 1% of the grain bill it will lend an extra bit of complexity in the dark malts, and a a dry crisp almost bitter finish which I personally like. You may need to drop the hops by a couple of IBUs to compensate for that finish. If you get up to 5% black malt you will be in the charcoal, ash, chewing on a heat bead type flavours, which need a lot of other flavours to back them up, or stand out.



Thanks GL. Looking back through my early records I got RB and RM mixed up and ended up with 10% RM. It was enough to turn me of stouts for about 5 years now. But I think I will give another crack as I have made some great Porters with a little RB. So I will have another go when kegs become available.

4000.00 gm Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 73.39 % 
800.00 gm Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 14.68 % 
200.00 gm Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 3.67 % 
200.00 gm Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.67 % 
200.00 gm Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 3.67 % 
50.00 gm Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1300.2 EBC) Grain 0.92 % 
30.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 33.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.5 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 


Steve


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/1/08)

I use 100gms of Black malt & 340gms RB in my  Pillar of Stout 

I find the little bit of Black malt adds a nice ash flavour that helps balance it out


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## dicko (26/1/08)

A good simple recipe for a traditional dry stout is;

Base malt 80%
Roast barley 10%
Flaked barley 10%
BU:GU = 1
No aroma addition.
A good yeast like wyeast 1084 or a dry Nottingham.
You could add small amounts of crystal to taste but too sweet is not good IMO.

Cheers


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## SJW (26/1/08)

I think this is as hard as I want to go with the roast & Black. Might drop the choc or amber yet?

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4000.00 gm Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 75.47 % 
500.00 gm Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 9.43 % 
250.00 gm Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 4.72 % 
250.00 gm Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 4.72 % 
250.00 gm Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 4.72 % 
50.00 gm Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1300.2 EBC) Grain 0.94 % 
30.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 33.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.6 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-)


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## Guest Lurker (26/1/08)

SJW said:


> I think this is as hard as I want to go with the roast & Black. Might drop the choc or amber yet?



I think that looks tasty and I would leave the amber and choc as is. Assuming you want to make a stout, rather than a dark ale or porter, then a good rule of thumb is 10% dark grains in total, and that looks right on the money.


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## SJW (30/1/08)

I ended up brushing the Roast Malt (Black) I read that Guinness have used black and RB over the years and no one can tell the diff. I will find where I read that and post it. I want this puppy to be dry so I hope thats what I get

#57 Dry Stout 
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 32.05 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4000.00 gm Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) Grain 77.82 % 
500.00 gm Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 9.73 % 
220.00 gm Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 4.28 % 
220.00 gm Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 4.28 % 
200.00 gm Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 3.89 % 
30.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 34.0 IBU 
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.20 %] (15 min) Hops 6.4 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.73 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 % 
Bitterness: 40.4 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 59.2 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 5140.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 15.20 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.2 PH 

Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 12.00 L of water at 76.6 C 68.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 10.00 L of water at 87.2 C 76.0 C


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## SJW (31/1/08)

Doing a little reseach on the diff between Roast Barley and Roast Malt and the first place I started to look was a Guinness site and that led me to this article: http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2007/11/06...arley-question/
Very interesting stuff that. I must admitt I can't tell the diff betwen RB and RM and it appears a lot of other people can't either.
Looks like another side by side coming up 

Steve


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## warrenlw63 (31/1/08)

Hey great link Steve. :beerbang: 

Must read all those other articles when I get a chance too. 

Warren -


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## SJW (31/1/08)

I am enjoying reseaching the history of these two. Guinness has a history of using both with little impact on flavour. I think when I have added some extra RM to a stout it has come out to charcoaly but from what I have found out it is probably because I have used the max amound of Roast with the Barley.

Steve



> Roast Malt/Black Patent Malt.
> This is malted barley which has been roasted till it is virtually black. Obviously it is again used in very small quantities and it gives a dark colour to the beer as well as a charcoal bitterness. Used in larger amounts it is excellent for producing Stouts.
> 
> Roast Barley.
> Unlike the previous specialty grains, roast barley is not made from malted barley. In this case ordinary dried barley is used and it is roasted to a very dark brown. The result is a flavour with subtle differences from the roasted malts and again it is often used in stouts. The world famous Guiness Extra Stout uses large quantities of it. It can also be used in very small quantities to flavour paler beers. When I visited the Tooheys Brewery at Lidcombe a few years ago, they were using roast barley to impart flavour and colour to a mash which used a high proportion of unmalted barley and would otherwise have looked and possibly tasted rather insipid.


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## zythophile (1/2/08)

newguy said:


> .....Which brings to mind something I found interesting. I knew that Scottish beers tend to be lightly hopped because historically the British would heavily tax hops exported to Scotland. I recently found out that the reason why the Irish used roasted and flaked barley in their stouts was that the British taxed malted barley.



Neither of these two claims is remotely true. 

Hops sent to Scotland were taxed at exactly the same rate as hops sold in England. Scots beers were lightly hopped for a host of reasons, including the cost of transporting hops north, local tastes, and the local climate being cool enough to not need high hop rates to preserve the beer. 

The tax on malted barley had nothing to do with the use of roasted and flaked barley in stouts, which (1) wasn't something that started happening until the 20th century, and (2) wasn't confined to Ireland. In fact Guinness historically only used roasted malt, not roasted barley, and does not seem to have started using roasted barley until the early 1950s: it's a myth that the particular Guinness flavour is down to roasted barley. 

It's also a myth, incidentally, that porter is (or was) in any way different from stout, except for strength. The recipes were identical, but stout was stronger.


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## newguy (1/2/08)

You're right. It's been a long time since I read the passage about Scottish brewers (and it took me a while to find it again), but here it is, from Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers:

"Long after the English had conceded to use hops, the Scots continued to prefer other bittering substances. There can be little doubt that a portion of this preference was born of economy, because hops had to be imported and were no doubt expensive. In addition, the Scots and the English have been far from friendly during much of their history, and Scottish brewers were most likely reluctant to adopt a practice embraced by their Southern neighbours." [pg 284]

Somehow the fog of time twisted that passage in my head into English hops being heavily taxed for export to Scotland.

However, the issue of a lack of taxes on unmalted roasted barley being the reason why Guinness started using it is true according to Alan Moen's article in All About Beer magazine (May 2003) called Taxing the Pour: How Taxes Have Changed Our Beer:

"The Stout Solution

Taxesor the avoidance of themalso helped create Irish-style stout. In his book, Classic Stout and Porter, Roger Protz notes that Arthur Guinness II developed his famous recipe by using non-taxed unmalted roasted barley in the place of black malt in his porters to reduce their cost. The bitterness of the roasted barley set his brews apart from those of his competitors in England and Scotland. It was instrumental in making Guinness Foreign Extra Porter Stout, a stronger version that became popular in the colonies. Guinness Double Stout came to dominate the London market. Here again taxes were a factor. As Protz notes:

Guinnesspriced Double Stout midway between those of London porter and Burton pale ale, which led to complaints from the English brewers about the tax-dodging activities of their Irish competitors. (page 51)

Unfortunately for those London brewers, unmalted barley did not receive a tax exemption in England, which gave Guinness a real advantage in the British trade." [Quote found here.]


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## wessmith (1/2/08)

OK, here is a bit more reading for you: http://www.ivo.se/guinness/

I think this info is in the article above but Guinness sold in Germany has always been made with RM - rheinheitsgebot rules!

These days you wont find any actual RB or RM in a Guinness - its all done with a flavour/colour extract that comes from Dublin. Frankly the current Guinness is but a shadow of its former self - lighter in colour, lower BU and sweeter.

This is great inspiration to do another brew of my '70s recipe with RB and FB....

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (1/2/08)

wessmith said:


> This is great inspiration to do another brew of my '70s recipe with RB and FB....
> 
> Wes



With big mutton chop sideys and flares Wes? 

Thanks for the info re; the colour extract. Being a Guinness fancier that sucks! <_<

Warren -


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## wessmith (1/2/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> With big mutton chop sideys and flares Wes?
> 
> Thanks for the info re; the colour extract. Being a Guinness fancier that sucks! <_<
> 
> Warren -



Bought my first 4 pack of widgit cans in quite a while recently and could not believe the sweetness. I also suspect the FB has been replaced by a malto dextrin adjunct. Great shame. And also great sadness about the flares - turns out they went in the rag bag some years back. I was keeping them until the fashion came back... Damn. What about the ties though Warren? Have you kept any???

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (1/2/08)

wessmith said:


> What about the ties though Warren? Have you kept any???



Only time I ever wore a tie Wes was when I was a defendant. B) 

Warren -


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## wessmith (1/2/08)

Not going to touch that one Warren! 

But i just went out to the brewhouse and pulled out my TF samples and tried both the RB and RM. The RM is definitely more "softer" and richer in flavour than the RB which has a more acrid background "bite". Thats what I miss in the Guinness of today.

While we are on about black beers, I also notice that many Schwarz beer styles have also gone "soft". Monteiths black has become noticeably sweeter and a couple of imports from Czech and Polish breweries recently tried also lacked any real depth of roasted character.

Is it me or more dumbing down...

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (1/2/08)

I'll take the dumbing down.  

Edit: Wes are these flavour/colour additives you're talking about similar to brewer's caramel colouring?

Warren -


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## Stuster (1/2/08)

wessmith said:


> Is it me or more dumbing down...



Could be this. h34r: 

Actually, I think it's far more likely that you're right and the recipes have been changed to appeal to a wider market.


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## wessmith (1/2/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> I'll take the dumbing down.
> 
> Edit: Wes are these flavour/colour additives you're talking about similar to brewer's caramel colouring?
> 
> Warren -



Sort of, but usually derived from malted grains of some description - a bit like Weyermann Sinamar. There is a company in Scotland that produces a range of colouring/flavour agents - Pure Malt Products (http://www.puremalt.com/). Have a look under Farbebiers and see how you can make different beers from a single wort stream. Chilling stuff. That said, Guinness probably produce there own extracts under great secrecy. Sort of reminds you about Coke and the smiling Colonel...

But hey, thats what beverage engineering is all about.

Wes


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## SJW (1/2/08)

> But i just went out to the brewhouse and pulled out my TF samples and tried both the RB and RM. The RM is definitely more "softer" and richer in flavour than the RB which has a more acrid background "bite". Thats what I miss in the Guinness of today.



Thats interesting, Beersmith describes these two as below, after brewing. Both pretty similar to me.


Roast Malt (Black) - 
Yield: 74.00 %
Type: Grain 
Potential: 1.034
Color: 660.0 
Coarse Fine Diff: 1.50 % Max In Batch: 10.00 % 
Moisture: 3.00 Must Mash: FALSE 
Diastatic Power: 0.0 Protein: 13.00 
Inventory: 0.00 gm 
IBU: 0.000 
Notes: Malted black barley adds a strong burnt coffee flavor - suitable for stouts and porters. Unmalted barley roasted at high temperature to create a dry, coffee like flavor.
Imparts a sharp acrid flavor characteristic of dry stouts.
Gives "dryness" to a stout or porter -- much more so than regular Roasted Barley 




Roast Barley
Yield: 74.80 %
Type: Grain 
Potential: 1.034
Color: 710.0 
Coarse Fine Diff: 1.50 % Max In Batch: 10.00 % 
Moisture: 5.10 Must Mash: FALSE 
Diastatic Power: 0.0 Protein: 0.00 
Inventory: 0.00 gm 
IBU: 0.000 
Notes: Dry, slightly astringent roasted flavour. Classic stouts (5%) , background colouring (1%).
Roasted at high temperature to create a burnt, grainy, coffee like flavor.
Imparts a red to deep brown color to beer, and very strong roasted flavor.
Use 2-4% in Brown ales to add a nutty flavor, or 3-10% in Porters and Stouts for coffee flavor.


This is a quote from am earlier link in refer to Guinness and RB.

The particular point to note today about all these beers is that they used roasted malt, not the roasted barley that commentators such as Roger Bergen, writing in Brewing Techniques in November 1993 say is “critical” to the Guinness palate. In fact Guinness could not have used roasted barley when John G was working there, because it was illegal: no grains could go into the brewing of beer that had not been malted, and paid the malt tax.

That only changed with the passing of the Free Mash Tun Act of 1880. But there seems to have been no rush by Guinness to use (cheaper) roasted barley in place of roasted malt. The experts seem to have been against the idea: Henry Stopes, writing in his 600-page bible Malt and Malting, published in 1885, insisted that roasted barley did not give as permanent a colour as roasted malt, and “the flavour is also very inferior; and the aroma can bear no comparison.”

So when, as Ron Pattinson has been asking, did the roasted malt change to roasted barley? Alfred Barnard, when he visited St James’s Gate in 1889, still found the brewery using “patent” malt. But opinion on roasted barley was shifting away from Henry Stopes’s dismissive view: Alfred Henry Allen wrote in Allen’s Commercial Organic Analysis in 1912 that: “Roasted barley is now largely taking the place of roasted malt, the latter being used mostly in the brewing of export stouts.”

All the same, Guinness looks to have held on for a couple of decades more. A guidebook for visitors to the St James’s Gate brewery published in 1928 said: “The chief difference between Ales and Stout are … in the use of roasted malt, which imparts both colour and flavour to the stout.” In the 1939 edition, however, the copy had changed to read “… the use of roasted malt, or barley” (my emphasis). It looks, therefore, as if Guinness began using roasted barley only in the 10 years between 1928 and 1938.

By now, it appears roasted barley was replacing roasted malt generally: Herbert Lloyd Hind’s Brewing: Science and Practice, published in 1938, says: “There are a number of distinct types of stout and porter, for which different blends of materials are used. On the one hand, are the stouts brewed from malt only, or from malt and roasted barley, On the other are the sweeter stouts, for which a fairly high percentage of sugar is employed … Roasted barley gives a drier flavour than roasted malt and is preferred by many.”

So: it looks like Guinness only started using roasted barley to make “Irish stout” in the late 1920s or 1930s, and began using flaked barley in the early 1950s. Expert commentary suggests roasted malt Guinness would have tasted very different from roasted barley Guinness – did anybody notice?


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## wessmith (1/2/08)

SJW said:


> Thats interesting, Beersmith describes these two as below, after brewing.
> 
> SJW, I tried to keep the comparo to an English maltster as that is about the closest you will get to what Guinness was likely to have used. There is a pretty dramatic difference in roasted profiles between the UK, Germany, Australia and I suspect the US as well. Without knowing what brand of product Beersmith is quoting from it is a bit difficult to really compare.
> 
> ...


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## SJW (1/2/08)

> For the record, Aussies roasted (malts and barley) are pretty harsh in flavour compared with the likes of TF. It seems that our barley strains dont take too well to heavy roasting. That is why JW deloped "Chocolate Chit" in an effort to try and minimise the harsher flavours.
> 
> Wes



Thanks mate, you learn something everyday. Another reason why I don't use Aussie specialty malts. I am not a fan of JW Ale or Pils either.


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