# How to make FG super dry?



## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

If I wanted my OG to drop to, say, 1004-1006, does anyone have any suggestions on how to achieve this using english ale yeast?


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

FG*


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## Hippy (9/5/15)

Add some amylase powder during the mash perhaps, assuming all grain. Otherwise add to fermentor if doing extract.


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

Do you have a reference?


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## Rod (9/5/15)

Hippy has it right

amylase is an enzyme when will assist the yeast to consume the fermentables or sugars further and also give you a higher alcohol content

and a dryer taste


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## Dan Pratt (9/5/15)

Mash at 62c for 90-120mins will get it low and dry.


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

62 over 65?


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## mje1980 (9/5/15)

Luke1992 said:


> 62 over 65?


62 for 65mins should do it. Also, go 100% pils or ale malt. I do 90mins at 62c for saisons, which I like dry. I also do it for mid strength lagers. Both will end up around 1.005 or lower.


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

I was going to use about 15% crystal and 85% pale malt, will that still work?


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## mje1980 (9/5/15)

With 15% crystal you'll struggle. You could add 10% sugar to help, but you might throw the beer out of balance.


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

I was planning to make a stone IPA w the BYO article. They're beers are super dry, so how would they achieve that without amylase? So amylase only works for pale or pilsners? What about something like mashing the crystal seperately from 45 to 55 to 62, and then adding the pale malt in with the crystal at 62 for the hour long mash?


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

Their*


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## JDW81 (9/5/15)

Luke1992 said:


> I was planning to make a stone IPA w the BYO article. They're beers are super dry, so how would they achieve that without amylase? So amylase only works for pale or pilsners? What about something like mashing the crystal seperately from 45 to 55 to 62, and then adding the pale malt in with the crystal at 62 for the hour long mash?


Crystal is already pretty much converted into long chain, unfermentable sugars. That is why it gives a sweet, caramel flavour to your beers when you use it. It also give some body to the beer, due to the residual long-chain sugars that don't get broken down by the yeast into ETHOH and CO2.

Mashing crystal can alter a very small proportion of the sugars, but even an extended mash at various temps won't change the fermentability of the sugars in it that much.



Luke1992 said:


> I was going to use about 15% crystal and 85% pale malt, will that still work?


A quick calculation from the BYO website shows the stone IPA is only about 7.5% crystal, with an expected FG of 1012. If you mash in the low 60s (say 62-63) and pitch an adequate starter of healthy yeast, then you will get good attenuation and the beer will finish with an appropriate dryness for the style.

Why not try the recipe as is, then adjust if it has a bit too much residual body for your taste. 

JD


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

I already know that the FG of stone isn't 1012, and I'm really getting sick of sweet beers. If crystal is supposed to be unfermentible, is there perhaps another malt I could use that would achieve a similar colour and flavour? Perhaps stone uses a portion of marris otter, which is ferment able, slightly darker and also would give it just a bit of spiciness? 
Now I now crystal is unfermentible, I'm really not keen to use it in the brew


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

Know *


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## wereprawn (9/5/15)

Luke1992 said:


> I was planning to make a stone IPA w the BYO article. They're beers are super dry, so how would they achieve that without amylase? So amylase only works for pale or pilsners? What about something like mashing the crystal seperately from 45 to 55 to 62, and then adding the pale malt in with the crystal at 62 for the hour long mash?


You would already have a shitload of amylase in the mash. At low mash temps alpha amylase is more active, resulting in a more fermentable, and hence a thinner, dryer beer. At higher mash temps, beta amylase becomes more active resulting in a less fermentable, fuller bodied beer.


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## lswhi3 (9/5/15)

Ok. Any suggestions on what to use instead of crystal?


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## wereprawn (9/5/15)

Could boil for longer for a maltier flavour.


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## manticle (9/5/15)

Wereprawn -alpha amylase is activated at higher temps (leaving more dextrinous, higher body).

Luke - long mash (try 90 mins) , lower mash temp (try 62) and just reduce the amount of crystal (try 5%). Make sure the yeast is fresh and healthy and you have plenty of it. Aerate the wort as well as you can.


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## JDW81 (9/5/15)

Luke1992 said:


> I already know that the FG of stone isn't 1012, and I'm really getting sick of sweet beers. If crystal is supposed to be unfermentible, is there perhaps another malt I could use that would achieve a similar colour and flavour? Perhaps stone uses a portion of marris otter, which is ferment able, slightly darker and also would give it just a bit of spiciness?
> Now I now crystal is unfermentible, I'm really not keen to use it in the brew


There is no reason that a beer that finishes at 1012 should be sweet, especially if it has a small quantity of crystal in it. 

Mash long and low low, keep the crystal at a lowish level and pitch an appropriate amount of healthy yeast into a well aerated wort and you're beer won't be sweet.


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## wereprawn (9/5/15)

manticle said:


> Wereprawn -alpha amylase is activated at higher temps (leaving more dextrinous, higher body).
> 
> Luke - long mash (try 90 mins) , lower mash temp (try 62) and just reduce the amount of crystal (try 5%). Make sure the yeast is fresh and healthy and you have plenty of it. Aerate the wort as well as you can.


Ooopps! Too many beers for me tonight..


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## mxd (9/5/15)

use a saison yeast that'll dry it out 

otherwise
3.7 kg of marris
200g crystal
200g wheat

400 g sugarz
25ish ibu ekg, fuggles

low mash temp
well aerated pre yeast (1968, s04 ..)
lots of yeast 18 to 22 over 48 hours then back down 18 ish over 12 hours
and hope for the best


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## Dan Pratt (9/5/15)

Instead of crystal, use Munich malt.


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## indica86 (9/5/15)

JDW81 said:


> Crystal is already pretty much converted into long chain, unfermentable sugars.


Hmm, I read an article with an experiment that debunked most of this and I have no idea where.


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## Tahoose (9/5/15)

Instead of crystal do 1 or 2 decoctions?

I'm asking the question here also.


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## bigmunchez (9/5/15)

A couple of points.... Totally agree with JDW81 - a high FG does not necessarily equate to a sweet tasting beer. FG is more about the mouthfeel/body of the beer. Most of the residual unfermentable sugars that make up the FG are dextrines which aren't all that sweet. If you want to reduce sweetness, cut down on crystal malt and use a bland base malt such as BB pale malt or JW export pils or breiss 2 row. Don't use a continental pilsner malt, in my experience they give a sweet malt character to a beer.
If you focus too much on getting a low FG you may end up with a thin, watery beer that is out of balance. 
If you want to maintain malt character without adding sweetness add some munich or try a higher kilned base malt such as MO.

Also which english ale yeast are you planning to use? They vary hugely in attenuation and malt character. Internet wisdom suggests that the closest yeast to Stones proprietary strain is WY1098 or WLP007. You could also use safale 04 I guess. WY1968 might give you some of the ester character but I suspect you'll struggle to get it to attenuate down as far as you seem to want.


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## micblair (9/5/15)

Working at a contract brewing facility, Im fortunate enough to see a lot of different malts go through the brewhouse. Some certainly perform better than others. BB Pale for instance offers exceptional extract, time to clarity and finishes nice and dry (<2.0 P) when mashed below 66C. It was the one thing as a home brewer which I never really varied when trying to optimise a low FG, as I exclusively brewed with JWM.


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## Samuel Adams (10/5/15)

indica86 said:


> Hmm, I read an article with an experiment that debunked most of this and I have no idea where.


Was this the one you were thinking of ?

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/85755-do-crystal-malts-add-more-unfermentables/


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## indica86 (10/5/15)

Yes http://beertech.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/crystal-malt-experiment-attenuation.html was the one


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## Danscraftbeer (10/5/15)

Pratty1 said:


> Mash at 62c for 90-120mins will get it low and dry.


Have to agree with this without confusing myself reading all the posts. 

I could give All Grain experiences of mine that gets as low as 1.002.
I really like this style especially for Summer. I think its safe to say its Low Carb??
No additional sugars, no additional whatevers. Very efficient on ingredients. B)
6.7kg grain makes 38lt = 4 slabs worth. at 5%.


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## Parks (11/5/15)

You will want to restrict the total amount of grain in your beer not just your mash temp. Something I have worked out is that the more grain you use the higher the final gravity will be.

So if you are going for a 6%+ beer you won't get it under 1012-1014 without substituting some grain for sugar/dextrose/etc.


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## mje1980 (11/5/15)

my saisons are 7%, no sugar and hit 1.005 easily


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## lswhi3 (11/5/15)

I used torrified wheat in the last few brews, could that have anything to do with it since its not heavily modified? Perhaps I need to just do a step mash?


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## Danscraftbeer (11/5/15)

Single Infusion, Light Body Mash. Batch Sparge (multible sparges is what I do) Final sparging run off's as low as 1.008. You get a big pre boil then boil hard/ boil down. 90 minute boils usual. Hop additions whenever you want.
It takes chefs judgments etc. Good to have levels marked on Keggle and estimation judgments of volumes. :beerbang:


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## rehabs_for_quitters (12/5/15)

Try using WLP007 Dry English Ale Yeast, 70-80% attenuation and it goes like a train and drops really clear and bright,


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## Vini2ton (13/5/15)

Last brew, a honey ale, using 3.7 kg grain and 1 kg honey went down to 1.001. WLP001 consistently gets me low FGs. I also use some nutrient, maybe unnecessarily, I don't know. Honey does dry brews out I think. Balance of hops and malt for style is important.


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## Parks (13/5/15)

What was your OG Vini2ton?


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## Vini2ton (13/5/15)

1.042. 11 lt BIAB 3.5 lt bucket sparge. Pretty simple. I was amazed. Looking forward to it. Topped up to 24 lt.


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## Parks (13/5/15)

I would expect it to get very low with that low starting gravity and over 20% simple sugar.


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## Vini2ton (13/5/15)

Never put 1 kg of honey in before that one. Might have a crack at a braggot. Good yeast health plus simple sugars equals dry eh?


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## mje1980 (13/5/15)

Parks said:


> I would expect it to get very low with that low starting gravity and over 20% simple sugar.


In his example yes, but you don't have to use sugar to get it under 1.010. Within reason, 7%+ beers can be done with simple grain bills and long low mash schedules.


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## Parks (13/5/15)

Pretty much. Yeast selection, oxygenation and temperature can all contribute too.


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## Parks (13/5/15)

Saisons aren't a very good comparison because the temperature is much higher and yeast love it.

Sure it can be done but yeast selection and health is critical.


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## mje1980 (13/5/15)

That's true, saison yeast is an unfair comparison, as they eat everything.

I like dry beers, and I like sub 1.010 fg in all my beers, and mash long and low for that with good results for standard strength beers. 


Yeast selection and health is always critical IMHO.


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## TheWiggman (13/5/15)

I think most things have been covered (except drying enzyme) but I thought I'd share some non-peer-reviewed observations from recent changes I've made.

I bought an O2 kit and yeast nutrient and have been using this on both the stir plate and in my beers. The main driver was for lagers, but for the last 2 brews I've used 10 month out of date yeast. I bought some servomyces nutrient from Nick R in the casules and the process I followed was -

1.5l of 1.035 wort using DME.
Sprinkle 1/4 of the capsule in the starter prior to boiling
Pure O2 for 20 secs
After a few days on the stir plate the yeast growth was visibly huge.
When brewing, I'd throw the rest of the capsule in the boil and give the wort a good hit with O2

Using 1098 British Ale yeast I made a 1.048 OG Oatmeal stout with expected FG of 1.014. Actual was 1.009.
Using 1728 Scottish Ale I made a 1.077 OG Old Ale with expected FG of 1.017 according to BeerSmith. Actual was 1.014, which was what I was after. It chewed down 63 points in _four days_ from pitching in a 10l batch. I had a mash temp of 68°C with 285g raw sugar in the boil.

Both brews were showing signs of fermentation within 12 hours. This is with 10 month old yeast don't forget, started only.

So my findings are that with some yeast nutrient and O2 to BOTH the wort and the starter it has a huge impact on fermentation time and attenuation. Not to mention yeast count in the starter. Good yeast health and quantity and good conditions for fermentation = good attenuation, along with all the other things that make beer taste better.
I'm a convert anyway and will have to adjust my recipes in the future to get my desired FG. Can't wait to brew my next lager.


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## Vini2ton (14/5/15)

Looking back I had a lot of success attaining low gravities with Ringwood 1187, always starters. 1.050 to 1.005 04s couple of 02s. I do 2 or 3 hr mashes at 64 or 65.


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