# Washing New Pet Bottles



## nevbass (17/10/09)

Can anyone tell me if it's safe to bottle into PET bottles straight from the box? I'm not sure if they need to be cleaned first.


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## raven19 (17/10/09)

You should be ok - however I would give them a quick wash with a no rinse sanitiser.

You dont want to risk an infection. :icon_cheers:


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## nevbass (17/10/09)

raven19 said:


> You should be ok - however I would give them a quick wash with a no rinse sanitiser.
> 
> You dont want to risk an infection. :icon_cheers:




Thanks for that.

I'm thinking I should give them some sort of sanitation!! That's common sense I guess, I'm more interested in knowing if I actually have to or not!! Are they sanitised and sterile in the box??


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## raven19 (17/10/09)

Being brand new they would have been made from molten plastic, as such I wouldve thought this results in a clean bottle - however there may be a lapse in placing the lids on them as such something 'could' get inside.


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## Flash_DG (17/10/09)

I have about 90 odd PET bottles and haven't washed a single one straight out of the box.
I had no problems


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## nevbass (17/10/09)

Flash_DG said:


> I have about 90 odd PET bottles and haven't washed a single one straight out of the box.
> I had no problems




Thanks guys, I usually use glass stubbies but I'm running a bit short. I have used PET in the past and washed them. I'm looking at two new boxes and thinking should I bother washing them or not. For all your info, the caps are in a sealed bag!!


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## Henno (17/10/09)

raven19 said:


> Being brand new they would have been made from molten plastic, as such I wouldve thought this results in a clean bottle - however there may be a lapse in placing the lids on them as such something 'could' get inside.



I've bought two boxes of these in the last two weeks. Neither of them had the lids on the bottles. So I gave them a good rinse with starsan. 'Trust the bubbles Luke'


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## flattop (17/10/09)

Nope i seem to remember they are pre sterilized so should be good, i never cleaned any of mine first time round..... (about 75)


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## Henno (17/10/09)

flattop said:


> Nope i seem to remember they are pre sterilized so should be good, i never cleaned any of mine first time round..... (about 75)



I have heard that they are pre sterilised before, but surely this goes out the window if they are sitting in a box with no lids on them for God knows how long? Surely the cardboard box can't be germ proof.


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## nevbass (17/10/09)

OK, I'm gunna bite the bullet and go with NO cleaning. I'll let you all know how things went!! Thanks for all your input.


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## Flash_DG (17/10/09)

but with nothing to entice them in I doubt they would bother let a lone live in there.


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## manticle (17/10/09)

I'd sanitise them because it's easy and saves the headache or worry. You could debate whether or not it's necessary till the cows drink a fat yak but nothing will ever prove anything one way or the other.

Sanitation is easy peasy. Obviously no need to vigourously clean first with sodium percarbonate and a brush but a good sanitise is only ever going to be good practice. Each to their own.


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## kook (17/10/09)

Flash_DG said:


> but with nothing to entice them in I doubt they would bother let a lone live in there.



Since when did dust or cardboard residue need "enticing" ?

There is no way they are "pre sterilised". They're probably quite clean - but clean does not equal sanitary.


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## brettprevans (17/10/09)

I gave mine a quick rinse in water and that's it. They should be ok but always better to be sure and use sone no rinse sanatiser


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## Flash_DG (17/10/09)

kook said:


> Since when did dust or cardboard residue need "enticing" ?
> 
> There is no way they are "pre sterilised". They're probably quite clean - but clean does not equal sanitary.



Was referring to the bacteria more then dust and cardboard.
the Coopers HBK instructions say to rinse with just cold water before bottling I'd guess for the dust and carboard dust.


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## Fourstar (17/10/09)

For the last caseswap in VIC, all i did was simply rinse out with no rinse sanitiser and fill away. No reports of infection so everything must have been hunky dory.


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## brettprevans (17/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> For the last caseswap in VIC, all i did was simply rinse out with no rinse sanitiser and fill away. No reports of infection so everything must have been hunky dory.


Nah mate your was shite lol


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## Fourstar (17/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> Nah mate your was shite lol



Says he who packaged his beer in nappi boxes! h34r: 

:lol: !!

Not what you originally said! 



citymorgue2 said:


> 15. Fourstar - American IPA
> clear with slight haze. could smell the hops as soon as you opened it. Lots of 'C' hop (no chops this time). struggled to get any sort of head but that could have been the glass (probably was). great level of carbonation. takes a few sips for the taste buds to adjust then its all good. great IPA. hop flavours round off the sides of the tongue ie aren't harsh. slight honey flavour I kept tasting after finishing each mouthful. no idea where that was coming from? maybe the crystal? its was a nice touch.
> 25 minutes after i finished the last of it I can still taste hops. great IPA. This was exactly the way I needed to start my night after a crap day.
> edit: the cat seemed interested in having a good smell of your beer. it then went nuts licking my fingers which i had duncked in the beer. So the cat liked your beer also for what its worth!


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## kook (18/10/09)

Flash_DG said:


> Was referring to the bacteria more then dust and cardboard.
> the Coopers HBK instructions say to rinse with just cold water before bottling I'd guess for the dust and carboard dust.



Bacteria that affect beer don't fly around with wings or crawl into bottles. They're living on particles of dust, pollen, etc. If the bottle has dust from the cardboard settled in it, expect there to be bacteria.

That said - the environment isn't exactly great for anything living. Low pH and alcohol will inhibit most bugs. But for the sake of a couple ml of no-rinse sanitiser I don't think it's worth the risk.


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## flattop (18/10/09)

12 months since i bought PETS but i believe it said on the box that they were Pre Sterilized and i think they were also in a sealed plastic bag.
If this is the case then the risk level is low.


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## mwd (18/10/09)

Coopers bottles come in a box caps in a plastic bag.

For the sake of two minutes and a splash of non rinse why risk wasting a brew.

Makes no sense at all to me.

Its your brew do as you like you will be drinking it.


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## thylacine (18/10/09)

Re: bottling time

I fill two 7 litre buckets. One with 'pink' detergent / or unscented napisan (cleaning) ; the second with idophor solution (sanitising).

I re-clean & sanitise (from the last time I used/cleaned them) the surfaces on/near which the fermenter, bottles and caps will sit. (the latter two with glad wrap as well). The bottling wand, my hands, wrists & forearms, the fermenter tap surfaces, my hands, the carbonation drops bag & the knife used to open them, my hands, AND the bottles/caps (new or old). Oh, and my hands.
I actually do the bottles/caps first while the cleaning/sanitation solutions are 'purest'. 
REASONS: good cleaning/sanitation, established temperature control are prerequisites to successful recipes.


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## Nick JD (18/10/09)

thylacine said:


> Re: bottling time
> 
> I fill two 7 litre buckets. One with 'pink' detergent / or unscented napisan (cleaning) ; the second with idophor solution (sanitising).
> 
> ...



What about all the microbes carried in on the air. How do you kill them? I'd be worried. I'd also be wearing a mask, or simply not breathing.


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## thylacine (18/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> What about all the microbes carried in on the air. How do you kill them? I'd be worried. I'd also be wearing a mask, or simply not breathing.




"...or simply not breathing..." Yes, certainly a good strategy where verbal diarrhea is prevalent... 


xxoo


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## ianh (18/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> What about all the microbes carried in on the air. How do you kill them? I'd be worried. I'd also be wearing a mask, or simply not breathing.



I with you Nick JD, the guys make me laugh with their fixation about sanitation.

I have about 250 PET bottles and all the see is beer and water


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## Nick JD (18/10/09)

ianh said:


> I with you Nick JD, the guys make me laugh with their fixation about sanitation.
> 
> I have about 250 PET bottles and all the see is beer and water



Same. Hot tap water ... priming sugar ... beer ... cap. Drink ... rinse out sediment ... dry. Repeat. 

And now we'll get the tirade of "your beer would taste better if it were bottled with more sanitation, like mine" - and to that I say, meh. I had an infected bottle a few years back - probably from a lump of crud that wouldn't have been got rid of if I did use sanitizer and an ebola biohazard suit. 

I still morn that lost bottle. Haunts me ... the waste.


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## bum (18/10/09)

I'd think a tirade of "who are you to laugh at other people's processes?" was more in order. If anyone wants to go OTT on positive procedures why should you guys care if they "waste" their time?


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## ianh (18/10/09)

I don't even use hot water. They get rinsed 3 times with cold water the morning after then tipped upside down to drain.


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## ianh (18/10/09)

bum said:


> I'd think a tirade of "who are you to laugh at other people's processes?" was more in order. If anyone wants to go OTT on positive procedures why should you guys care if they "waste" their time?



Happen laugh is the wrong word but I can't understand what seems an obsession with sanitising things on AHB.

It may depend partly on where you live, I think sanitising things may be more important in say tropical QLD rather than down here in Tasmania.

It could also be influenced by your background in brewing. I used to brew in plastic dustbins rather than fermenters, still never had a problem. If I had a problem then I will probably change my ways.


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## mattbrewer (18/10/09)

I don't really care what people do, but try a little experiment. Use a good cleaner and rinse glass, plastic and stainless that has been in contact with sugar/hops/beer. Have a look at the shit and dis-coloured liquid that comes off especially if they haven't been cleaned for a while.

Good brewing, Matt.


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## Fourstar (18/10/09)

ianh said:


> Happen laugh is the wrong word but I can't understand what seems an obsession with sanitising things on AHB.



If i can avoid having off flavours in my beer and having to tip 20 odd L of beer down the drain i will. 

Fermentation happens on a microbiological level so i will do everything i can to ensure by little yeast buddies can do their job without having to battle a war with brett and wild yeasts.

For the sake of saving 20 bucks on Starsan every year and a few extra minutes in your process to sanitise everything, its well worth the effort. Whats the use of having car insurance if you never use it?  I'll keep my sanitation safety blanket thankyou very much.

Post fermentation, its easy to get away without a sanitisation step due to beer pH, anerobic conditions and other variables but in the long run your beer will loose the battle in the bottle if nasties are lurking (which they are in your tap water).


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## Nick JD (18/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> ... in the long run your beer will loose the battle in the bottle if nasties are lurking (which they are in your tap water).



I strongly disagree. Microbes in tap water are not even capable of overpowering a small amount of yeast pre-fermentation. I know this because I make beer from tap water (from an unchlorinated source too) - often, for the last 20 years. So I'm just gonna have to call a big horsehockey on that one. 

But sanitizing your hands? Are we scooping beer out with our fingers? To someone who doesn't sanitize _the bottles, _I'm gonna have a little chuckle. Are these microbes able to walk? Going to those lengths of sanitization worried about contact contamination and doing nothing to purify the air circulating the operation is like washing your hands when using a public toilet and then opening the door on your way out, getting 100 other guy's dick cheese on your fingers.


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## bum (19/10/09)

Wouldn't happen if everyone washed their hands.

But honestly, you do know you did kinda gave a valid argument for his behaviour with that bit at the end that you think is damning him, right?

Regardless, I don't scrub up like a doctor when I put down a brew but the incidental hand-wetting during the sanitation process probably goes some way to knocking off the worst of any bugs so it's not worth worrying about IMO but, again, why should any of us give a shit if someone else does? How is it going to impact on me? How is it going to ruin their beer? None of us should care if someone else wants to take 30 seconds to do something that might stop the dick cheese of 100 men getting into their beer.


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## Fourstar (19/10/09)

bum said:


> None of us should care if someone else wants to take 30 seconds to do something that might stop the dick cheese of 100 men getting into their beer.



And that is the reason why we sanitise. :beerbang: 

I dont know what kind of magic wand you wave over your bottles Nick JD without sanitising but if it works, im glad it does for you. When i was bottling (which now only happens for transportation/comps), even with sanitising and a rigourous cleaning regieme i still ended up with a few bottles that where gushers after 6months~ in the bottle. Another reason why i moved to kegging. If you are only sanitising one vessel, the chances are you will get it right and can spend more time on preparing that one vessel. 

On the other hand if you are sanitising 30 longnecks or 60 stubbies, surely you will have a higher chance of having one bad apple in the bunch. It brings me back to my insurance policy. I'm happy to invest in insurance for my beer, but if you want to go commando, you run those risks on your own.

Beers! :icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (19/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> If i can avoid having off flavours in my beer and having to tip 20 odd L of beer down the drain i will.
> 
> Fermentation happens on a microbiological level so i will do everything i can to ensure by little yeast buddies can do their job without having to battle a war with brett and wild yeasts.
> 
> ...



+1 mate, right on imo.


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## Nick JD (19/10/09)

bum said:


> ...why should any of us give a shit if someone else does? How is it going to impact on me?



I've met so, so many brewers who "brew by rote" rather than taking the time to understand the process. 

People come on these sites to learn - it doesn't matter to me what other brewers do either ... but it's nice to have people see there's two sides to the story isn't it?

Otherwise we'd all believe that we needed what Carlton have, to make good beer (and that's clearly the opposite). 

So if someone who is wondering if they really need to go to such huge lengths to kill bacteria in an environment they are just about to introduce a healthy gram-positive fungi into + alcohol and acid ... well, it might help if they have some understanding of how few microbes can prosper in the bottle.

Next you'll be telling no chill brewers they'll all get botulism.


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## bum (19/10/09)

What a strange leap to be making. I'm going to go immediately from saying you have no right to tell people that they are being too clean in their brewing to telling others that their process is wrong?

You are a very smart gentleman. I am impressed at your mastery of rhetoric.


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## Bribie G (19/10/09)

Came late to this thread: I was of the mindset "the bottles are brand new in a box, what could possibly be wrong with them" and bottled a batch of SuperLandlord using new BrewCraft PETs. I entered two in the QLD State comp and sent two down to Butters for tasting with Dr Smurto and Muckey. Their first bottle was pronounced good, but the second bottle was cloudy with a twang and not up to scratch. The bottles that went into the state comp got a silver.

I arsed that one, but won't be doing that again, for the sake of a few furious minutes of Starsan. I haven't actually picked up any bad bottles with the rest of the batch yet, but from now on I'm not taking chances.


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## Fourstar (19/10/09)

BribieG said:


> I arsed that one, but won't be doing that again, for the sake of a few furious minutes of Starsan. I haven't actually picked up any bad bottles with the rest of the batch yet, but from now on I'm not taking chances.



Good _Insurance Policy _Bribie! B)


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## Eyelusion (19/10/09)

When it comes to brewing, you can't be clean enough.
Well that what I think.


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## RobboMC (19/10/09)

I'm up to well over 100 PET's in my system now,
I have always rinsed the new ones in boiled water, as warm as the bottles will take,
which seems to be around 60 deg C.

I've never used santiser, just the warm boiled water. This method seems to work,
but clean - clean - clean is the way.


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## Nick JD (19/10/09)

bum said:


> What a strange leap to be making. I'm going to go immediately from saying you have no right to tell people that they are being too clean in their brewing to telling others that their process is wrong?
> 
> You are a very smart gentleman. I am impressed at your mastery of rhetoric.



I'm impressed by how much your handle suits your persona.


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## manticle (19/10/09)

Nick -I've made this point before but the things that work for you are things you've arrived at through experience. There are many things you can change about recommended process or get away with when you know what you're doing but when you're new to the craft it's better to be careful. I can imagine getting an infection on your first KK brew might be enough to put you off brewing.

By all means - your methods are valid in as much as they work for you but you worked them out given time and experience. Not everyone has that luxury yet.

Add to that, that from what I understand, you do sanitise (hot/boiling water). You just don't use chemicals.


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## Nick JD (19/10/09)

manticle said:


> Nick -I've made this point before but the things that work for you are things you've arrived at through experience. There are many things you can change about recommended process or get away with when you know what you're doing but when you're new to the craft it's better to be careful. I can imagine getting an infection on your first KK brew might be enough to put you off brewing.
> 
> By all means - your methods are valid in as much as they work for you but you worked them out given time and experience. Not everyone has that luxury yet.
> 
> Add to that, that from what I understand, you do sanitise (hot/boiling water). You just don't use chemicals.



Totally - but I'm also trying to let others know that complete paranoia is not always necessary and might put off a novice brewer. I couldn't care less what everyone else does ... just saying that clean bottles rinsed with hot tap water get infected at a rate of 1:2000, and that's a ratio I can be happy with. 

Bottling in a hermetically sealed environment suits rigorous sanitization regimes - not banging beer into bottles in the kitchen.


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## manticle (19/10/09)

I think we're on a par somewhere. I'm far from mr bio-suit man but I don't always recommend my half arsed processes as the best way to behave, especially to Monsieur myairlockisntbubblingdoihavetinea


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## bum (19/10/09)

New brewers, that little thought in the back of your head telling you that rinsing PET in hot water might be a bad idea is probably worth listening to.


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## marlow_coates (19/10/09)

I used to just give the bottles a clean, and then soak in a strong bleach mix, then rinse thoroughly and dry in the carton upside down.

Open carton again on bottling day and fill.

A few months ago I had a gusher though, and the single bottle was clearly infected. Was pretty upsetting.

So now I no rinse sanitise the bottles (quick shake with solution then passed to next bottle and so on) prior to bottling.
Haven't been doing it like this for long enough to see the effects, so am usure of any tiny infections that may be slowly destroying my beers.

Will have to wait and see, but the no rinse step is pretty quick when everything is set up to bottle, so will keep at it for peace of mind for now.

Marlow


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## kook (19/10/09)

Nick JD said:


> just saying that clean bottles rinsed with hot tap water get infected at a rate of 1:2000, and that's a ratio I can be happy with.



In your environment  That won't be the same for everyone.

If it works for you - that's great. Not everyone has that luxury though, everyones house and environment is going to have different native flora and associated microbes. Some people store their grain in their bottling area, some store bottles outside or in a dusty shed.

If people want to risk bottling a batch without sanitisation - sure, go for it. But they should do so knowing that depending on their environment they might waste the batch.


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## Henno (20/10/09)

48 posts on whether or not we need to wash PET bottles. Does anybody think we may need a life?


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## QldKev (20/10/09)

Henno said:


> 48 posts on whether or not we need to wash PET bottles. Does anybody think we may need a life?



Well said there Henno,

this is what the forum is becoming lately, at least 50% sounds like it's like a kiddy chat line.
/rant


QldKev


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## Digger11 (20/10/09)

There seems to be a sport going where some posters seem to always post a reply within 5 minutes of the original, often starting with - "I don't know much about this topic however ....""

I just ignore these posters now, as I don't think they realise that just by posting first does not make their response the most correct.

/rant.

Digger


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## bum (20/10/09)

I'd like to enter into this debate about other people's posts. I hate people who post their opinions on the internet. It should be banned. Stop posting guys.


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## manticle (20/10/09)

I'd just like to express my general nonchalance and ennui.

Bof.


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## peas_and_corn (20/10/09)

manticle said:


> Nick -I've made this point before but the things that work for you are things you've arrived at through experience. There are many things you can change about recommended process or get away with when you know what you're doing but when you're new to the craft it's better to be careful. I can imagine getting an infection on your first KK brew might be enough to put you off brewing.



It pretty much put me off brewing for some time, I did the hot water rinse like the video said and the beer was infected. Didn't brew again for 3 years.


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