# bittering hops, does it matter?



## _Mick_ (19/9/13)

Just wondering if anyone could tell me if it really makes any difference what hops you use for bittering? As long as you get the AA you want of course.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (19/9/13)

Good question, I did a quick search on the topic and there are quite a few great threads on this, including this one http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/43120-bittering-hops/ which suggests some flavour can come through and the hop choice will make a noticeable difference (on top of the AA% contribution) :beer:


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## lukiferj (19/9/13)

Plenty of info on here as mentioned above. I usually use magnum as I find it adds bitterness with little harshness or flavour. High AA and works in a lot of the styles I brew.


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## _Mick_ (19/9/13)

Cool thanks, I have been reading a bit on this topic and have found a fair bit of info but unfortunately being the internet there is alot of contradictions out there... Hoping someone has some first hand experience on what they do for bittering. I'm just looking for ways to cut cost so instead of buying lots of little bags of hops I can buy a bulk lot of a high AA hop as a generic bitterer.


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## syl (19/9/13)

_Mick_ said:


> Cool thanks, I have been reading a bit on this topic and have found a fair bit of info but unfortunately being the internet there is alot of contradictions out there... Hoping someone has some first hand experience on what they do for bittering. I'm just looking for ways to cut cost so instead of buying lots of little bags of hops I can buy a bulk lot of a high AA hop as a generic bitterer.


It's not just an internet thing, it's particularly prevalent amongst homebrewing scene! It's due to the mix of science and subjective tasting and testing. There are a lot of pedants and a lot of theories that are simply fads. Hot side aeration???

I find that bittering hops do impart some flavour, to do with the make up of their oils. It's a reason I don't bitter with galaxy anymore, felt it imparted grassy flavours overall (sort of like dry hopping too early with galaxy)

If you want a neutral bittering hop, use Perle or Magnum. They add great IBU's whilst not adding too much harshness or notable flavours.


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## wbosher (19/9/13)

I was discussing this exact topic with Manticle and Dr Smurto a while back, and I think you'll agree that they have plenty of experience. I'll see if I can find the thread, but basically the lower AA hops aren't quite as harsh as the higher ones, a more mellow bitterness if that makes sense.

Not such a big deal in a highly hopped IPA, but something with a lower IBU, it could possibly be detected.

Here it is


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## Bribie G (19/9/13)

The bittering hops make a huge difference. Pride of Ringwood single addition, Saaz single addition and Challenger single addition will produce wildly different tasting beers. Many Continental brewers have no concept of late hops, flameout additions or dry hopping but you still get that hop aroma hit when you open the bottle. A rather extreme example of this is the hop Galena used in Corona. When I did a Cerveza style lager I used a fairly small amount of Galena in a 60 min boil and even though I only put in about 15g for the whole brew you could still get a slight hop nose on opening the bottle.

Having said that, some hops such as US Magnum and Pacific Gem are very neutral anyway if you are just looking for the "purest" bittering effect.


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## manticle (19/9/13)

Some are more neutral than others.

I prefer to use a hop I don't mind the flavour of as they will impart character in my experience. I buy hops mostly in 500g lots so I don't worry too much about trying to save a few cents.


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## QldKev (19/9/13)

I think it depends, If you bitter with a fairly neutral hop and slam it with 4g/L citra at flame out, then you won't get any bittering hops flavor. If you slam a hit of bittering and use a light / use no late hops then the bittering addition will shine it's ass off.

I think the best neutral bittering hop is Super Alpha, but like most NZ hops we get over charged for them. Second to that is US Magnum, which does impart some flavor. I do prefer to bitter with the correct hop for the job, as manticle said it doesn't cost much extra, unless you are paying too much for the hops to start with.

US Magnum is current $US12.99 for a lb from http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com Fill up your basket to 3.5lb to get the best shipping benefit, and get a few decent amounts of some great hops. It may take an extra couple of weeks compared to local purchased stuff, but it works out at about half the cost.


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## syl (19/9/13)

QldKev said:


> I think it depends, If you bitter with a fairly neutral hop and slam it with 4g/L citra at flame out, then you won't get any bittering hops flavor. If you slam a hit of bittering and use a light / use no late hops then the bittering addition will shine it's ass off.
> 
> I think the best neutral bittering hop is Super Alpha, but like most NZ hops we get over charged for them. Second to that is US Magnum, which does impart some flavor. I do prefer to bitter with the correct hop for the job, as manticle said it doesn't cost much extra, unless you are paying too much for the hops to start with.
> 
> US Magnum is current $US12.99 for a lb from http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com Fill up your basket to 3.5lb to get the best shipping benefit, and get a few decent amounts of some great hops. It may take an extra couple of weeks compared to local purchased stuff, but it works out at about half the cost.


Very good service from Jeff in the past. Would definitely recommend them. The hold up isn't his shipping, it's generally our customs!

I have found customs have been great though. They do a pin prick test of one bag and leave the rest.


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## stm (19/9/13)

How much (and what weight) are the little bags of hops you are buying? Are these the hop tea bags from your LHBS? In this case, yes, cost is an issue, but if you buy 90g bags from Craftbrewer or other sponsors of this website, then cost is no longer an issue even if you are bittering with Saaz or other low AA% noble hops. Or you can buy by the pound as suggested above!


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## manticle (19/9/13)

I agree with Kev in part - a lot of late hopping will disguise most of the flavour impact you'll get from a different hop. However given that it's mostly new world type hops that people use for high late hopping and given that most of them are high aa (the example given of citra is 11-13% generally), what is to be gained by using something else? Why not use citra all the way (unless there's a shortage). Maybe Cascade and centennial since cascade is usually 5-6% and Centennial close to twice that but generally I don't see a lot to be gained.

For something with a fair bit of late saaz at 3.5%, it makes some economical sense to bitter with something like German Northern Brewer although I would prefer to suck it up and just use the saaz.

In addition to flavour, many hops will add piney resinous character so even if the flavour is not distinct, the hop is.

IF I were pushed I'd say German NB would be my first pick and Magnum always gets a good rap from people who use it. Centennial for US style but I like the flavour of centennial anyway


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## GalBrew (19/9/13)

I like to use Magnum in most of my higher IBU ales to act as a bittering hop, mainly as it allows me to stretch my other hops out a bit more. I still use POR from time to time in certain styles, but with Euro beers I tend to use low alpha hops all the way through.


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## wbosher (19/9/13)

I just bought some Cascade at 9.1AA%, that's a lot higher than I've ever seen it before. Be using that all the way through


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## Dave70 (19/9/13)

Conversely, sort of, has anyone gotten harsh results from using a hop more traditionally associated with aroma / flavor like say cascade for bittering? 
Cant recall if it was cascade exactly, but I'm pretty sure I've added a bunch of mid low to mid range hops in the past early in the boil, most likely to use them up, to attain APA levels of bittering (at the high end) and it turned out rough as guts.


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## wbosher (19/9/13)

I do that all the time Dave, not noticeable bad results. I often us a low AA% hop like Fuggles as a bittering hop in my English beers.

Most of my beers are single or double hop, rarely more, so if I use one hop for flavour/aroma, I usually use the same one for bittering as well.

What I have done on a couple of occasions is rather that add a shitload at 60mins, I'll add less at say 80min. No complaints yet...


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## syl (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Conversely, sort of, has anyone gotten harsh results from using a hop more traditionally associated with aroma / flavor like say cascade for bittering?
> Cant recall if it was cascade exactly, but I'm pretty sure I've added a bunch of mid low to mid range hops in the past early in the boil, most likely to use them up, to attain APA levels of bittering (at the high end) and it turned out rough as guts.


Not with Cascade. Cascade is beautiful all the way through.


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## _Mick_ (19/9/13)

Excellent thanks for the replies, so the general consensus is Magnum for generic bittering. 
Cheers


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## DJ_L3ThAL (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Conversely, sort of, has anyone gotten harsh results from using a hop more traditionally associated with aroma / flavor like say cascade for bittering?
> Cant recall if it was cascade exactly, but I'm pretty sure I've added a bunch of mid low to mid range hops in the past early in the boil, most likely to use them up, to attain APA levels of bittering (at the high end) and it turned out rough as guts.


I can +1 your experience Dave, I accidentally put Cascade in at 60min for a fat yak clone instead of the Nelson Sauv, but had a moment of "F it" and threw in the Nelson as well, leaving myself without any 0min/dry hop hops. Turned out drinkable but was a very bitter beer. Lesson learned, don't be an idiot on brew day.


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## Bribie G (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Conversely, sort of, has anyone gotten harsh results from using a hop more traditionally associated with aroma / flavor like say cascade for bittering?
> Cant recall if it was cascade exactly, but I'm pretty sure I've added a bunch of mid low to mid range hops in the past early in the boil, most likely to use them up, to attain APA levels of bittering (at the high end) and it turned out rough as guts.


I've started doing some "pot luck" brews just to see what happens. Using the same base malt all the time plus maltose syrup, I reach into the fridge and just grab a bag blindly, and weigh out to 30 IBU - single addition.

Latest one was Centennial, which is noted as an aroma hop. Ended up surprisingly Non-smooth and a bit astringent. (edit: the archetypal home brew that a Tooheys New drinker remarks "ooh that's a bit different", meaning "Please God get me out of here, make it end :lol: )


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## Dave70 (19/9/13)

wbosher said:


> I do that all the time Dave, not noticeable bad results. I often us a low AA% hop like Fuggles as a bittering hop in my English beers.
> 
> Most of my beers are single or double hop, rarely more, so if I use one hop for flavour/aroma, I usually use the same one for bittering as well.
> 
> What I have done on a couple of occasions is rather that add a shitload at 60mins, I'll add less at say 80min. No complaints yet...





syl said:


> Not with Cascade. Cascade is beautiful all the way through.


Yep, after digging up the recipe looks like thinking I was chilling when I was actually no chilling seems to be the culprit, not the hops.

Submersing your cube in a water tank on the end of a rope _does not _constitute chilling.


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## syl (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Yep, after digging up the recipe looks like thinking I was chilling when I was actually no chilling seems to be the culprit, not the hops.
> 
> Submersing your cube in a water tank on the end of a rope _does not _constitute chilling.


What if it's a pool?!?!


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## pcmfisher (19/9/13)

I think some hops give a nicer bitterness than others.
I have bittered with Galaxy and Citra to the same ibus in different brews.
Citra gives a smooth bitterness while Galaxy is harsh and resinous.

Come to think of it, I have done a few brews with Centennial lately and they are a bit harsh as well.


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## GalBrew (19/9/13)

Yeah, I would not recommend galaxy as a 60 min addition. Very rough.


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## syl (19/9/13)

GalBrew said:


> Yeah, I would not recommend galaxy as a 60 min addition. Very rough.


Horrible stuff.


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## QldKev (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Yep, after digging up the recipe looks like thinking I was chilling when I was actually no chilling seems to be the culprit, not the hops.
> 
> Submersing your cube in a water tank on the end of a rope _does not _constitute chilling.



It's called_ slow-chilling _

and if it's done by Bill then it's _Billy Chilling_


Here's my old slow chill setup
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/56920-fermentor-infection-sht/?p=802440


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## dougsbrew (19/9/13)

Bribie G said:


> I've started doing some "pot luck" brews just to see what happens. Using the same base malt all the time plus maltose syrup, I reach into the fridge and just grab a bag blindly, and weigh out to 30 IBU - single addition.
> 
> Latest one was Centennial, which is noted as an aroma hop. Ended up surprisingly Non-smooth and a bit astringent. (edit: the archetypal home brew that a Tooheys New drinker remarks "ooh that's a bit different", meaning "Please God get me out of here, make it end :lol: )


Haha, I've done an all centennial brew aswell, only went to around 20 ibus though, it was a bit like chewing on the rind of a grapefruit.


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## Dave70 (19/9/13)

syl said:


> What if it's a pool?!?!


Nope. Not even a *really *chilly one. Like the one I tried to create with a tub chilled to zero in the chesty overnight that I dunked the cube in once. Basically did naught but turn the freezer into a giant pie warmer. 

Eventually, I submitted to the laws of thermodynamics and wound up two lengths of 1/2 inch tube to create an immersion chiller. (It's all about the surface area you know..) 

Cooled 18 L of 94 deg wort to pitching temp in around half an hour. Probably would have been quicker if the keggle wasn't such a giant heat sink. Had the whole shooting match squared away and dosed with 2L of starter by the end of the brew day. Sweet.

I was suitably impressed I must say.


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## syl (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Nope. Not even a *really *chilly one. Like the one I tried to create with a tub chilled to zero in the chesty overnight that I dunked the cube in once. Basically did naught but turn the freezer into a giant pie warmer.
> 
> Eventually, I submitted to the laws of thermodynamics and wound up two lengths of 1/2 inch tube to create an immersion chiller. (It's all about the surface area you know..)
> 
> ...


Too lazy here!


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## yum beer (19/9/13)

I was using NB in my lagers/pilseners to save money but now I just throw the saaz at it. NB worked quite well and not a lot of difference in the final product.
Target for bittering my Pommie styles. Don't know if it imparts a flavour of its own but has been working a treat.
Super Alpha is also super clean, I use it in my Pale Mexican with a little Galaxy late.....and its not that pricey(flowers from craftbrewer).
Can't comment on Magnum or Perle, have never used them but am going to give Magnum a run when my current stock of Target runs out.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (19/9/13)

syl said:


> Too lazy here!


Did you take your cubes on holiday with you???


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## syl (19/9/13)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Did you take your cubes on holiday with you???


Every day I wake up in Del Boca Vista! My neighbouards are really annoying too


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## Dave70 (19/9/13)

syl said:


> Too lazy here!


To be honest, in terms of why we even go to the bother of rapid chilling in the first place, you may as well just no chill as do this. 
I'd sink mine to the bottom of our 100,000 liter concrete tank that sits around 14 deg year round and hours later they were still way to hot to even think about pitching, let alone form a cold break. 
Explains why chill haze has also been my constant companion.


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## syl (19/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> To be honest, in terms of why we even go to the bother of rapid chilling in the first place, you may as well just no chill as do this.
> I'd sink mine to the bottom of our 100,000 liter concrete tank that sits around 14 deg year round and hours later they were still way to hot to even think about pitching, let alone form a cold break.
> Explains why chill haze has also been my constant companion.


That pool is 2 degrees. Doesn't take long to get below isomerisation temps  Not that I would change what I am doing anyway!!!


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## lukiferj (19/9/13)

I do the same thing in my pool. I brewed on Sunday morning and pitched that afternoon. Not ideal but seems to work for me. I don't mind a bit of extra bitterness anyway.


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## syl (19/9/13)

lukiferj said:


> I do the same thing in my pool. I brewed on Sunday morning and pitched that afternoon. Not ideal but seems to work for me. I don't mind a bit of extra bitterness anyway.


You just account for these types of things in your calcs! Simple!


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## lukiferj (19/9/13)

I've found that I prefer the beers I have slow chilled over no chilled. Could be all in my head but definitely from a convenience factor, works for me. I've had no trouble making hop forward beers this way.


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## rehab (19/9/13)

I may be talking shit *I am known to do this from time to time as are most Homebrewers* but I remember reading somewhere that people bitter with higher Alpha Hops so that they don't have to throw a heap of lower Alpha Hops at the same point increasing the possible risk of poor/vegetal flavouring from the amount of hops the brew has been exposed to for a long time in the boil... I may have it partly or completely wrong though but this seems like a weird thing to make up


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## Batz (19/9/13)

US Magnum I do not like.

German Magnum, Northern Brewer, Horizon and I have used Super Pride but moved away from it now.

They are my bittering hops. Not telling you to use them but it's what I like at this time.

Batz


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## micblair (19/9/13)

As above. Less hop material/break from using a bittering hop which means I can collect more wort of equal bitterness at a fraction of the cost if I was to use a low alpha flavour/aroma variety. As for chill, investing in a Blichmann Therminator was the single best investment after my Braumeister. My beers now seem to achieve a delicate floral flavour/aroma, which I can only speculate to their origin, perhaps less overall bitterness and the retention of a higher portion of the volatile hop oils lending to a rounder, more balanced final product.


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## SimonT (19/9/13)

Anyone using Hop Extract/HopShots for their bittering? Seem to be plenty of people buying from Yakima Valley Hops - and they sell the stuff. Just wondering? If we're trying to minimise loss to hop based trub this looks to be the go, assuming a brew with lots of late flavour and aroma hopping? Thinking big IPA's....


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## MikeHell (19/9/13)

Definitely reckon that whatever you you use for bittering imparts its unique accents to the brew. Find something you like the smell of and use accordingly.


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## Screwtop (19/9/13)

MikeHell said:


> Definitely reckon that whatever you you use for bittering imparts its unique accents to the brew. Find something you like the smell of and use accordingly.



Best advice so far!

Screwy


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## _Mick_ (19/9/13)

Have many of you bought hops from Yakima valley hops? How long is the average time It takes to get to your door from ordering?


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## yum beer (19/9/13)

17 days


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## Smokomark (19/9/13)

_Mick_ said:


> Have many of you bought hops from Yakima valley hops? How long is the average time It takes to get to your door from ordering?



4 times 

Quickest 8 days 
slowest 13 days


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## syl (19/9/13)

Yeah. Within 2 weeks. Bloody good!


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## Smokomark (19/9/13)

Magnum is my go to bittering hop depending on the beer. If its a single hop IPA I'll use that hop right thru. If the beer calls for multiple late additions .I'll use magnum for bittering. Its a good clean bittering hop.


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## _Mick_ (20/9/13)

Wow 2 weeks is great! Especially from the state's. Looks like I'll be placing a 3.5lb order today. How to you guys store your hops? I usually keep them in their original package inside an airtight container at the back of the fridge. Any other suggestions?


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## Dave70 (20/9/13)

SimonT said:


> *Anyone using Hop Extract/HopShots for their bittering?* Seem to be plenty of people buying from Yakima Valley Hops - and they sell the stuff. Just wondering? If we're trying to minimise loss to hop based trub this looks to be the go, assuming a brew with lots of late flavour and aroma hopping? Thinking big IPA's....


I know one mob who do. 
Yes, hop extract - its not_ just_ for IPA's any more (or ever)


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## Yob (20/9/13)

Case and point, Coopers pale ale... only a bittering addition, still imparts a 'flavour' (if you want to call it that loosely) 

Yes it matters... especially so if you go for FWH type additions too.. B)


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## syl (20/9/13)

_Mick_ said:


> Wow 2 weeks is great! Especially from the state's. Looks like I'll be placing a 3.5lb order today. How to you guys store your hops? I usually keep them in their original package inside an airtight container at the back of the fridge. Any other suggestions?


Same process. But in the freezer.

I currently have about 6 kilograms of hops on hand. Might be time for a big IPA! B)


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## _Mick_ (20/9/13)

syl said:


> Same process. But in the freezer.
> 
> I currently have about 6 kilograms of hops on hand. Might be time for a big IPA! B)


Haha nice, I barely have that much weight in grain left


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## Not For Horses (20/9/13)

SimonT said:


> Anyone using Hop Extract/HopShots for their bittering?


Yeah. VB.


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## Newts (21/10/13)

I did read that bittering hop additions don't matter in terms of flavour but even in my limited experience I've found a massive difference between them. When I bittered with Nelson Sauvin I found I couldn't drink it straight away as it was too harsh. I had to let it sit for about 3 weeks then it was nice and smooth. Would say the same about Northern Brewer. When I've bittered with Cascade or Amarillo I can hop straight into it and it's nice and fruity. Still get better with age but aren't as harsh.

In summary I think your choice of bittering hops make a big difference. I learnt that early in my extract brewing days.

Newts


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## punkin (22/10/13)

I don't know why people would order from the states for hops and wait weeks when for a couple of extra dollars (and it really is only a couple of extra dollars) they can order from http://www.hopdealzaustralia.com/ and have it next day or day after and support an aussie business run by a local brewer.

I'm not against ordering from the states, but when the benefits are that small i just have never seen the point.


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## BeerNess (22/10/13)

I don't know why people would order from the states for hops and wait weeks when for a couple of extra dollars (and it really is only a couple of extra dollars) they can order from http://www.hopdealzaustralia.com/ and have it next day or day after and support an aussie business run by a local brewer.

I'm not against ordering from the states, but when the benefits are that small i just have never seen the point.


So true


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## wide eyed and legless (22/10/13)

Got to agree with Punkin makes more sense to order from hopdealzaustralia, the service is second to none which more than makes up for the savings made.


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## dicko (22/10/13)

A bit OT 
I tend to have moved away from POR as a base for bittering mainly because it doesn't keep as well as most other pellet hops.
A beer made with POR that is a bit old is something you wont forget 

Horizon is my go to bittering hop as I don't like Magnum. Chinook is a hop that I will have nowhere near the bittering end of any brew.IMO it is too harsh and I use it sparingly if at all at the end of a boil.
Simcoe is another hop that is overlooked by a lot of brewers but is a smooth bittering hop for apa styles.
I will add that a German Pils with Saaz all the way is still a magnificent beer.
My random thoughts

Cheers


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## Yob (22/10/13)

You don't like Magnum period or don't like American / German?

I realise tastes are pretty subjective but I've been using G/Magnum for about a year in APA'S and AIPA's and quite like it.

Yet to try Horizon but plan too directly


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## dicko (22/10/13)

Yob said:


> You don't like Magnum period or don't like American / German?
> I realise tastes are pretty subjective but I've been using G/Magnum for about a year in APA'S and AIPA's and quite like it.
> Yet to try Horizon but plan too directly


Yes I should have been more specific... US Magnum is the one I am not fond of.
When I finally put that order in Yob I will get some G Magnum.
Give the Horizon a go it will be interesting to get some other opinions on it.

Cheers


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## syl (22/10/13)

Horizon is great bittering. I bought a lb bag from yakima valley hops a while back, it is a great clean APA/AIPA bittering hop.


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## Bribie G (22/10/13)

punkin said:


> I don't know why people would order from the states for hops and wait weeks when for a couple of extra dollars (and it really is only a couple of extra dollars) they can order from http://www.hopdealzaustralia.com/ and have it next day or day after and support an aussie business run by a local brewer.
> 
> I'm not against ordering from the states, but when the benefits are that small i just have never seen the point.


As I recently posted on another thread, I've just bought an Aldi freezer and did a big hoptake stocktake and ended up chucking at least a kilo of assorted stuff that was mostly no good from the day I took delivery of it - EKG, Saphir, and a few other bits and pieces. What with those, the half kilo of Galena I've given away in the past and *don't mention the Chinese Hops *I've had little or no benefit ordering from overseas or from Ellerslie - to my knowledge I've never binned a hop bought from local suppliers and sponsors. I'm back onto UK styles anyway and enjoying some stunning Challenger from Ross and EKG from MHB - and can still afford to eat and put petrol in the car. 

Now, the other thing about bittering hops (edit: specifically bittering as opposed to just plain old hops) is that they are a fairly new animal in the thousand years of brewing hopped beers and were bred specifically for commercial breweries. There absolutely has to be hop breeding programs around the world because hops are very prone to being wiped out by disease, that has happened monotonously in the UK, America and Europe. For example, little known fact that New York State was THE hop growing area in the USA until it was wiped out by disease and had to move West.

The other thing that the hop breeders came up with, starting after the Second World War was to start investigating high alpha hops for the commercial brewers who were emerging as mega industrial blocs and were now being run by accountants. The problem with higher alpha hops is that many of them also have manky tastes and aromas that would have been quite unacceptable to old time beer drinkers who were used to the traditional hops like Fuggles, Saaz, Goldings etc. I believe our palates have been "trained" to accept these flavours nowadays and in fact I do like Challenger, one of the real early "dual purpose" hops, but it's interesting that the beers we prize and try to emulate as home brewers such as TTL, Czech Pilseners, etc are quite often based on a monotonous few old Traditional hops.

It's good to experiment with the new citrussy piney passionfruity hops for their interesting new flavours but as a home brewer into malty beers with subtle hop accents, I'm moving away from the concept of _bittering_ hops and getting the bitterness as a side product of the other things I am looking for

endeth sermon B)


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