# We are being ripped off



## mondestrunken (8/11/17)

A recent trip to Northern Europe highlighted how expensive beer is in this country.

A couple of examples:

A small, independent Belgian brewery: 6-pack of mixed (i.e. triple/dubbel/brune) bottles of 6-7% beer for 11 euros ~ $16. 
6-pack of leffe blonde in australia = $30 (sure there's transportation and all, but isn't Leffe a mass produced beer?).
6-pack of interesting 4-5% beer from a small, independent Australian brewery: $25

3 pints of industrial English ale (e.g. London Pride, Bishops Finger, etc. things you'd see in the specialty international aisle of chain bottle-shops) in UK supermarket: 5 GBP ~ $8.50.
1 pint of similar in Australia would be $8-9
1 pint of something interesting, e.g. Little Creatures is probably $6 or so.

Or, alternatively in Australia, I can buy a 12-15% 750mL bottle of death-bag wine in a bottle for about $4 from the supermarket.

Why is it so?


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## labels (8/11/17)

Tax regime.
There are six levels of excise on beer, three for containers 48L or more (kegs) and three for under this amount (packaged beer)
Each level is based on alcohol content but basically low alchol - low tax, mid strength - mid tax, normal strength - high tax.
Excise is raised twice per year based on the previous six months CPI
There is NO excise on wine, there is WET tax, wine equalisiation tax which is higher for mega wineries and very low for small wineries
Small craft brewers do get some tax relief but it's minimal compared to the wine industry
Also the retailers here are greedy bastards


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## labels (8/11/17)

Plus GST which is added on top of and including excise - double dipping tax.


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## Danscraftbeer (8/11/17)

The most expensive I have bought is state local. $10 for one 375ml La Sirene for example. 
Even closer local $25 for a six pack of 3.5% Berline Weiss brewed 15m drive from my house. 
I cant say they were a rip off. Just to compare with brewing your own up to or more enjoyable.
Local is fresh. Imported can get old by the time your drinking it but home brew is by far the best of all.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/11/17)

Treasury has been trying to fix this since the Henry review.

Their answer is create a level playing field by making all alcoholic beverages pay the same level of excise. If this happens it would most likely be the current level for spirits, which is about $1 per standard drink.

If this gets up that $4 bottle will cease to exist as the tax will jump from well under $1 to about $8.00. The big end of the wine industry hates this idea of course.


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## MHB (8/11/17)

Nice to have a good whinge, but, some northern European countries charge what we would regard as ridiculous rates of income tax, fuel tax and even control how many bottles of spirits you can buy in winter...
Last time I got sick I spent a couple of weeks in hospital, what would have cost a house in the US, here $1.50 in car parking.

We do have higher excise on beer and smokes than some countries, lower than others.
We could have cheaper beer and dearer hospitals, on balance I think we do pretty well.
Mark


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## labels (8/11/17)

MHB said:


> Nice to have a good whinge, but, some northern European countries charge what we would regard as ridiculous rates of income tax, fuel tax and even control how many bottles of spirits you can buy in winter...
> Last time I got sick I spent a couple of weeks in hospital, what would have cost a house in the US, here $1.50 in car parking.
> 
> We do have higher excise on beer and smokes than some countries, lower than others.
> ...


Not disagreeing with you Mark, but the conversation has swung towards why beer has a heavy excise and wine has none. A level playing field for tax on alcohol ahs been in the media for the last few years, nothing has changed but even a moderate level of excise on wine would help with the hospitals.
On the other hand, hospitals are state institutions and alcohol tax is federal


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/11/17)

Nothing has changed because the decision would send a large number of the grapegrowers in the Riverina and the Riverland broke. They are already being paid unsustainable prices for grapes, this would wipe out something like half of their market and prices would get even worse.


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## 2cranky (8/11/17)

labels said:


> On the other hand, hospitals are state institutions and alcohol tax is federal


So the more alcohol we consume the more we pay the feds. 

I guess we deserve that for being piss heads.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/11/17)

As I understand it, since GST replaced state based license fees and sales tax on alcohol sales, it's part of the legislation that the money raised by the GST component must be returned to the states.


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## SeeFar (8/11/17)

I came back to brewing because of the price of quality beer. 

Sure, brewing is an enjoyable process, the anticipation is exhilarating and you can learn a lot of interesting science along the way. However there are so many amazing beers out there that I don't really need to brew myself to get what I want but I already have a bunch of expensive (financial and temporal) hobbies. So I need to take the high financial cost out of my beer drinking hobby now I have house loans, kids, a mountain bike addiction, travel addiction, etc. etc. I guess I'm swapping financial outlay for my time. 

Lucky I enjoy brewing and can make decent booze.


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## Danscraftbeer (8/11/17)

SeeFar said:


> I came back to brewing because of the price of quality beer.
> 
> Sure, brewing is an enjoyable process, the anticipation is exhilarating and you can learn a lot of interesting science along the way. However there are so many amazing beers out there that I don't really need to brew myself to get what I want but I already have a bunch of expensive (financial and temporal) hobbies. So I need to take the high financial cost out of my beer drinking hobby now I have house loans, kids, a mountain bike addiction, travel addiction, etc. etc. I guess I'm swapping financial outlay for my time.
> 
> Lucky I enjoy brewing and can make decent booze.


and become a judge yourself and pay the painful price here and there for top shelfer craft beers to get reference on variation.
That's the idea I subscribe to.


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## Dae Tripper (8/11/17)

WET tax is WET tax, not variable, it is 29% of the wholesale. Then GST on consumer sales. Then GST, plenty of tax thanks.

And all the while the real criminality is charing excise on fuel ethanol, renewable yet taxed to oblivion. 

While we are at it the constant indexed excise is an unsustainable way to tax out all viable business let alone bleed customers dry. I comes under the guise that if you drink you beat your wife thing, so we raise tax. That does nothing to address the problem other than leave them to beat them up because they have less money. This is the super simplified political version, a reason for more tax.

All in all the part of the way it is all taxed is because Australia went to very few breweries for a significant period of time and the laws reflect that. No pollie is willing to change it, even if they say they do.


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## mondestrunken (9/11/17)

Yes it's a whinge and a rant, and there's nothing more boring than cost-of-living whinges, I know.
My point is there is no logical reason I can think of why beer of any description needs to be 4-5x expensive as cheap-ass wine that no one realistically drinks for pleasure.
I could go on with my rant but I won't bother - if you want you can just imagine it yourselves. And yes I feel very much like Grandpa Simpson at the moment.

Anyway it's all the more reason to go ahead with my planned homebrewery capacity expansion...


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## malt junkie (9/11/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Nothing has changed because the decision would send a large number of the grapegrowers in the Riverina and the Riverland broke. They are already being paid unsustainable prices for grapes, this would wipe out something like half of their market and prices would get even worse.


Fully get this, and people have their livelihood, many years and a good chunk of change in those vineyards. Note we have a bunch of new Craft Breweries Kick off every month, they too have put in time, staked their livelihood, and usually all their assets on their business. More than 75% fail in the first 2 years, due to cash flow, why? Because they have to pay tax on a product they're yet to sell. If the wine industry had to do that it would have been on it's knees decades ago. So why the inequity?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/11/17)

Your argument is not with me.

BTW I diasgree that most craft breweries fail because of tax. They fail because they think that making beer well = running a brewery.


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## technobabble66 (9/11/17)

labels said:


> ...
> Also the retailers here are greedy bastards


Possibly. 
Or they need to cover ridiculously high leases that reflect ridiculously high (commercial) property prices, as a result of appalling poor economic management by both sides of politics over the last 15 years. Plus a voting public who seem blissfully unaware of the true impact of their property wonderfully skyrocketing in value. 

You could also argue wages are a major cost factor as well, though you could then debate it's a reflection as well of those increases in cost of living (namely property/mortgage). 


Otherwise, yeah I'd agree the disparity between wine & beer seems illogical at face value. 
Should be a simple tax rate as per alc%. 
If you could argue the tax relief is needed to support smaller vineyards & wine producers (which has some sound reasoning to encourage diversity), then simply introduce a similar relief for beer & spirits producers - one that benefits small (& new) producers to encourage diversity in beer/gin/whiskey/etc producers as well as wine.

Edit: and as WEAL covered, I'd definitely agree it's good to pay high taxes to provide decent health and education etc


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## warra48 (9/11/17)

Lots fail because they are not good at running a business.
No different to many of the other small businesses which fail.
Many small business owners do not have a proper business plan, no vision as to what they want to achieve, no proper monitoring and analysis of their costs and financial performance, no marketing plan, no projections, no cost control, etc etc, and are also often under capitalised. The result is that they revert back to a "comfort zone" doing the activity of the business without managing it. I've seen it with two of my wife's close relatives, one of which went bust in 2 different small businesses.


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## malt junkie (9/11/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Your argument is not with me.
> 
> BTW I diasgree that most craft breweries fail because of tax. They fail because they think that making beer well = running a brewery.



The standard 50% new business failure, I believe well covers your statement, the further 25% over and above most other industry is a bloody big jump, and note it is still the case that excise is aimed at keeping the big end of town happy. 
The wine industry doesn't want to see the changes outlined above, because vineyards will go belly up and then be taken over by one of a few conglomerates, and we'll have less variety less quality, with a few big players calling the shots. 

CUB, Nathan Lion ... errr


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## wide eyed and legless (9/11/17)

warra48 said:


> Lots fail because they are not good at running a business.
> No different to many of the other small businesses which fail.
> Many small business owners do not have a proper business plan, no vision as to what they want to achieve, no proper monitoring and analysis of their costs and financial performance, no marketing plan, no projections, no cost control, etc etc, and are also often under capitalised. The result is that they revert back to a "comfort zone" doing the activity of the business without managing it. I've seen it with two of my wife's close relatives, one of which went bust in 2 different small businesses.


All the above I agree with, even more so when a hobby is transformed to a business, where the business is governed by the heart not the head.

Edit: and as WEAL covered, I'd definitely agree it's good to pay high taxes to provide decent health and education etc
Wasn't me in this thread Technobabble it was MHB but I fully agree with him alcohol is the most dangerous drug to society should attract a lot of tax to help cover costs. Though it does not explain the difference in wine and beer, wine drinkers as well as beer drinkers cause road accidents, and I suspect more bus shelters are vandalised by beer drinkers than wine drinkers, maybe its to pay for the bus shelter refurbish.
Plenty of vineyards get bulldozed, admittedly it is a big loss of time, effort and money put in by the grower but the land is still there. The biggest part I hate and it is not so much the tax is paying $15 and $16 a pint in some pubs on the way to the football, now that has got to be rip off mode.


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## Dave70 (9/11/17)

mondestrunken said:


> A recent trip to Northern Europe highlighted how expensive beer is in this country.
> 
> A couple of examples:
> 
> ...



Lets pretend we discovered alcohol yesterday and tried to pitch it. A carcinogenic disinhibivitive psychoactive substance with a lethal threshold of around 7g per kg of bodyweight and basically a net negative effect on health overall. Not to mention costing the community in the order of 15 billion per year by way of hospitalizations, lost production, justice system etc. 
To say it would never fly is beyond an understatement.

Even a cursory glance at the laundry list of substances, most of which have no lethal dose, and are freely available in other countries, that have either been classified schedule 4 by the TGA or criminalized outright should convince anybody that its a small miracle grog, and furthermore, the private manufacturer of, is even legal in Australia, let alone cheap / expensive. 

Its a bit of a worry.
To badly paraphrase Martin Niemöller, 'First they came for the homebrewers'..

Devils advocacy aside, I've paid about 50 Czech koruna in Prauge - about $2.50 AUD for a pint of draught Urquell. 
So yeah, we get fucked on alcohol.


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## Yuz (9/11/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Nothing has changed because the decision would send a large number of the grapegrowers in the Riverina and the Riverland broke. They are already being paid unsustainable prices for grapes, this would wipe out something like half of their market and prices would get even worse.



OT / Rant material but sort of relates...
As an observer of recent events and directions in general, it's like someone flicked the "OFF" switch for Australia. Resources, Manufacturing, Energy, Housing, Law / Policing, Migration - it's like a grand and deliberate attempt to f things up. Permanently.
They're just being careful with the grog side of things since if they f that up too, they'll be a mass revolt.


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## Moad (9/11/17)

I would save a fortune if home brew was outlawed


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## MHB (9/11/17)

Dave70 said:


> Lets pretend we discovered alcohol yesterday and tried to pitch it. Snip


You couldn't even get potatoes onto the market under existing law - they can be left in the sun until they turn green and toxic - so no chance, wouldn't even think of talking about tobacco.

Not saying that a lot of things in our society don't really make sense, just that we all need to look at the bigger picture not just the bit that annoys the hell out of us at any given moment.
Mark


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## Dave70 (9/11/17)

MHB said:


> You couldn't even get potatoes onto the market under existing law - they can be left in the sun until they turn green and toxic - so no chance, wouldn't even think of talking about tobacco.
> 
> Not saying that a lot of things in our society don't really make sense, just that we all need to look at the bigger picture not just the bit that annoys the hell out of us at any given moment.
> Mark



When life gives you potatoes..


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## Bridges (9/11/17)

On a holiday once to central Australia I was waiting for the bottlo to open in Alice Plaza so I could get a six pack of something as we were on our way out of town for a couple of days, I was waiting with a lot of people who I would say had some issues with alcohol, not one of them got beer. When the doors were thrown open they all went for the cask tawny 2 litres at about 16% for about $8. That there is where there needs to be some taxation equalization. Not on your sixer of berliner weisse or rodenbach, but the goon of fortified wine, I think I know which is doing more damage.


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## Liam_snorkel (9/11/17)

and now for a brief interlude for comic relief:


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## mondestrunken (9/11/17)

Dave70 said:


> A carcinogenic disinhibivitive psychoactive substance with a lethal threshold of around 7g per kg of bodyweight and basically a net negative effect on health overall.


Sounds good! Where can I get me some?


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## Dave70 (9/11/17)

mondestrunken said:


> Sounds good! Where can I get me some?



Bunnings Warehouse!!


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## manticle (9/11/17)

Bridges said:


> On a holiday once to central Australia I was waiting for the bottlo to open in Alice Plaza so I could get a six pack of something as we were on our way out of town for a couple of days, I was waiting with a lot of people who I would say had some issues with alcohol, not one of them got beer. When the doors were thrown open they all went for the cask tawny 2 litres at about 16% for about $8. That there is where there needs to be some taxation equalization. Not on your sixer of berliner weisse or rodenbach, but the goon of fortified wine, I think I know which is doing more damage.


Question is whether taxing the vices of lower socio economic groups is merely punitive or effective in terms of harm minimisation. Every person and their dog in my suburb still smokes, despite the exorbitant price of a pack of 50 blank label shitsticks.


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## koshari (9/11/17)

What about event pricing? $9.00 for a small plastic cup of coopers pale ale is simply taking the piss ( no pun intended) . Dont get me wrong i like a nice drip of coopers but refuse to pay 9 bucks on principle.

At a metallica concert in praha in 99 i was drinking half litres of starapramen for under aussie dollar!


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## Bridges (9/11/17)

I do agree Mants those same people would still flock in to buy their morning cask of goon, I just saw that there were a group of people that were really harming themselves, and think that equalization where all forms of alcohol are taxed equally may mean that the pace of said harm is slowed a bit as there is no standout "bang for buck" type alcohol to be had. By the same token maybe your neighbors have cut back from a pack a day to a couple of dozen ciggies a day. I really hate the idea of lower socio economic groups copping it, and I think the taxes on beer and cigs (I've never smoked and hate the things) are way over the top and grossly unfair, traditionally a beer and a ciggie were the only indulgences some people could enjoy. I do get the argument that they cost our community a lot in healthcare and other areas but putting GST on an excise is a scam that only a government could get away with...

So yeah we are being ripped off...


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## MHB (10/11/17)

There is actually an offset at the point where Excise is calculated, You get to take around 1.15% off the alcohol content before paying the tax, this is to compensate for the Tax on a Tax situation.
https://www.ato.gov.au/business/exc...oods/alcohol-excise/excise-rates-for-alcohol/
At the bottom of the page is a link to "Beer" follow it for more information on how to do the calculation.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (10/11/17)

MHB said:


> There is actually an offset at the point where Excise is calculated, You get to take around 1.15% off the alcohol content before paying the tax, this is to compensate for the Tax on a Tax situation.



My understanding is that was introduced a long time before the GST and for two reasons: so that excise is not payable on "no alcohol" beer* and to skew the excise so that light beers paid less. 

You can tell how old it is by the number: 1.15% ABV is 2 degrees proof in the old English system where that mixture of alcohol and water that just allowed standard Royal Navy gunpowder to light was "proven".


* Most methods of producing "no alcohol" beer leave ~1% ABV behind.


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## Mardoo (10/11/17)

Dave70 said:


> Bunnings Warehouse!!



Man, I used to live in a neighbourhood full of chromers. That is some fucked up shit. Had a few beers in my front yard one day with one of the guys, and he started talking about the faculties that he knew he had lost - that his memory was fucked and he couldn’t tell the difference between reality and imagination, that his vision just went away randomly, that he had no interest in sex, and couldn’t always control his bowels. Said, “Guess it’s just my life now, huh?” And cried his eyes out. **** me. Hardest conversation ever. The worst part was that he knew those things were never coming back. 

Sorry, back on topic…


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

manticle said:


> Question is whether taxing the vices of lower socio economic groups is merely punitive or effective in terms of harm minimisation. Every person and their dog in my suburb still smokes, despite the exorbitant price of a pack of 50 blank label shitsticks.


In Mexico they have put a 10% tax on soft drinks (sugar tax) and for 2 years running have seen a drop in consumption. Tobacco use here would surely be down compared to 20 years ago, I have no idea of the cost but if people are still smoking then surely it is not enough.


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> In Mexico they have put a 10% tax on soft drinks (sugar tax) and for 2 years running have seen a drop in consumption. Tobacco use here would surely be down compared to 20 years ago, I have no idea of the cost but if people are still smoking then surely it is not enough.


You don't cure any addiction, by sending people broke, you create larger problems.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> You don't cure any addiction, by sending people broke, you create larger problems.


I would say death is worse than broke, broke you can get over, death is irreversible.


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## Bribie G (10/11/17)

warra48 said:


> Lots fail because they are not good at running a business.
> No different to many of the other small businesses which fail.
> Many small business owners do not have a proper business plan, no vision as to what they want to achieve, no proper monitoring and analysis of their costs and financial performance, no marketing plan, no projections, no cost control, etc etc, and are also often under capitalised. The result is that they revert back to a "comfort zone" doing the activity of the business without managing it. I've seen it with two of my wife's close relatives, one of which went bust in 2 different small businesses.



As a former Allens Sweets, then Rothmans, rep I've seen literally thousands of small businesses. In my case they were nearly all in the retail / service sector but what warra refers to would apply to all small business. 

It struck me (and ask any rep they'd probably agree) that a good proportion of small businesses are started by people who either want to buy themselves a job or, worse, are totally unemployable in the real world. 
How often do you see (for example in the local rag) .. _after being made redundant from the engineering company Robert decided to follow his lifelong dream and finally realise his plan to manufacture and sell widgets...
_
Many buy themselves a "lifestyle". ... _Helen and Harry felt they were getting nowhere in their medical careers in Sydney and wanted a better lifestyle for their kids - they felt that they deserved better than living in Blacktown. Then the opportunity came to move to Hervey Bay to take over the Golden Goldfish takeaway and souvenir shop .. the ideal sea change..._

You could always tell the lifestylers, when I parked behind the row of shops you could count off the BMW SUV's, the Toyota Celicas for the wives - all leased of course .. Oh Harry's not in today he's playing volleyball....

Having said that I'd be the world's worst small businessman. I'm not hard arsed or full-of-myself enough. Give me the quiet life.


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## Bribie G (10/11/17)

That's the equivalent of us paying about $33 for our more common 4L wine cask. 

Really stopped preloading and bingeing over there didn't it.


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would say death is worse than broke, broke you can get over, death is irreversible.


Heads up, curing addiction, or having no addictions, won't stop death.


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## Grott (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> You don't cure any addiction, by sending people broke, you create larger problems.



Not sure if Australia wide but in SA the government introduced a hefty tax on alcohol drink mixtures like those can mixes (eg UDL) and alcopop bottles in an attempt to stop teenage binge drinking. All this did was to actually force an alternative. Buy a bottle of strong alcohol and mix your own.

Now at least one positive issue with the mixes was the alcohol content at the start of the “binge” was at least the same at the end of the “binge.
By mixing their own the problem has worsened, as like most that mix, start off with more mixer than alcohol, end up more alcohol than mixer.


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## Grott (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would say death is worse than broke, broke you can get over, death is irreversible.



Sadly there are different levels of “being broke”


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## DU99 (10/11/17)

Grott ..victoria got the same with pre mixed
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/04/27/1208743339515.html


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## Dae Tripper (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> In Mexico they have put a 10% tax on soft drinks (sugar tax) and for 2 years running have seen a drop in consumption. Tobacco use here would surely be down compared to 20 years ago, I have no idea of the cost but if people are still smoking then surely it is not enough.



In a country that had Coke cheaper and significantly safer than most water, it was time they did something. Or you could make the water safe too...


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## bradsbrew (10/11/17)

Dae Tripper said:


> In a country that had Coke cheaper and significantly safer than most water, it was time they did something. Or you could make the water safe too...


Is that cola you a referring to?


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## Dae Tripper (10/11/17)

bradsbrew said:


> Is that cola you a referring to?


Lol yes, the dark nectar of life, not the crazy powder.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> Heads up, curing addiction, or having no addictions, won't stop death.


Nothing will stop death, it is inevitable, curing addictions and having no addictions prolongs life and there is such a thing as choice. 


Dae Tripper said:


> In a country that had Coke cheaper and significantly safer than most water, it was time they did something. Or you could make the water safe too...


Bottled water is still far cheaper than cola, but unfortunately sugar is also an addiction.


Grott said:


> Sadly there are different levels of “being broke”


True, but still manageable and reversible, death comes in one format only.


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> True, but still manageable and reversible, death comes in one format only.


Tell that to the 100,000 homeless in this country, who if they remain so, have a very curtailed life span.

Aging population is only going to get bigger the more clever we get, and as it is now we can't afford it. And a lot of pensioners can barely afford to live. So is the answer to work towards extending lives so they can retire into poverty. The number of elderly who die every year due to fiscally imposed restrains (think undernourishment, cold, heat stroke, lack of appropriate care) will only rise. I can't see this as being morally or fiscally prudent.


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## Dae Tripper (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Bottled water is still far cheaper than cola, but unfortunately sugar is also an addiction.



Your right not cheaper but basically the same before the tax hike.

Ramón Aguirre Diaz, director of Mexico City’s water utility, says water quality isn’t as bad as believed: 95% of Mexico City’s drinking water is potable and 80% to 90% elsewhere in the country.
The National Water Commission says 9% of the population lacks access to tap water and 13% to sanitation.

So why trust water.

The current cost vs cola (shoud be after the tax hike)
Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle) 12.00 MXN
Water (0.33 liter bottle) 9.54 MXN
Or in Aussie dollars
Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle) 0.82 A$
Water (0.33 liter bottle) 0.65 A$

References
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Mexico&displayCurrency=AUD
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/ivancastano/2012/02/22/mexicos-water-war/amp/


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> Tell that to the 100,000 homeless in this country, who if they remain so, have a very curtailed life span.
> 
> One of the main causes of homelessness brings us back to substance abuse/addiction how many of those homeless fall into that category?
> There will always be people who live for today without a care for the future, so there will always be people who will face a shortfall in retirement. The government is already taking steps to address this by reducing or cutting out the pensions altogether from those who have put money aside for their old age, my parents lose their pension next year under the means test.
> I think the only thing the government can do is take more money off us in tax, raise the GST to 20% then just maybe they can look after the homeless and pensioners.


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

The top 1% of wage earners in this country probably each pay less tax than you do, they earn more that the entire bottom 20%, but no politician is ever going to go out of their way to tie this 1% to any sort of equilibrium, because they are the big contributers who help get them their nice comfy piece of the pie in politics.

We could do what the Yanks have done and say **** the poor! But then we'll have the same, destitution, and crime they do (just without the guns). You can drive through any part of any city at any time you like in this country; we don't have square kilometers of ghettos sprawled across the outskirts of our cities. I like it that way.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

Gold.


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## madpierre06 (10/11/17)

Maybe we might score a politician who's got the stones and integrity to come in and put an end to the never ebnding gravy train that former politicians slop from...starting with tax payer funded, obscenely bloated pensions. 

yeah, I heard myself.


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## captain crumpet (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> Tell that to the 100,000 homeless in this country, who if they remain so, have a very curtailed life span.
> 
> Aging population is only going to get bigger the more clever we get, and as it is now we can't afford it. And a lot of pensioners can barely afford to live. So is the answer to work towards extending lives so they can retire into poverty. The number of elderly who die every year due to fiscally imposed restrains (think undernourishment, cold, heat stroke, lack of appropriate care) will only rise. I can't see this as being morally or fiscally prudent.



Can i bring euthanasia into this? Or is that too taboo? I mean If society forces you into quick sand and doesn't throw you a rope...


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

Why do you think they enter politics, great pension scheme theirs is always on the up, Malcolm is already worth $150 million and he thinks being prime minister is fun, I wouldn't pay that douche bag in 1/2" washers.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

captain crumpet said:


> Can i bring euthanasia into this? Or is that too taboo? I mean If society forces you into quick sand and doesn't throw you a rope...


Funnily enough I have been giving euthanasia a lot of thought, I was all for it, let people die with dignity but 2 years ago I was ready to let go of life, even looking forward to it, then went on a trial and came good, though one never gets cured of cancer it has given me some more years (don't know how many) so unless they get the policy right I can't now say I fully agree with it.


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## Leyther (10/11/17)

Australia is a very expensive country these days but I think its not all down to tax, a lot is probably greed too.

I was in the UK last year drinking Little Creatures Pale Ale and paying 2.99GBP for it in the walkabout bar, at todays ex rate (1.7 AUD2GBP) that's ~$5, yet in Melbourne CBD which is about 60km from where its brewed you'd be lucky to get one for less than $9!!! The UK has excise duty too plus there's the cost of freight, etc so how can this be? how much of that $9 is the greed of the bar owners or the greed of the landlord who rents out the pub. 

Australia, the lucky country or the ripoff expensive country? 

BTW that pic in the UK from a view posts back was staged although I have seen a scene very similar in Dumfries in Scotland


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## Bribie G (10/11/17)

The main result of making Pre mixed drinks so expensive was to basically kick off widespread cider drinking in Australia. 

Before that, cider was a weird thing that vegans and funny old men with funny whiskers drank. There was Strongbow, Mercury, end of story. 

Now in our local bottlo the cider section is as big or bigger than the Bundy / Woodstock section. 

Reminds me I must pop out for couple of 1.25L of Little Fat Lamb 8% before they ban that.


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## Yuz (10/11/17)

$28 for a Jug of Furfy's. Not overly alcoholic nor spectacular brew, but acceptable.
My first "commercial" purchase in months. I think next one will only be into the 2018 sometime.


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## neal32 (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> The top 1% of wage earners in this country probably each pay less tax than you do, they earn more that the entire bottom 20%, but no politician is ever going to go out of their way to tie this 1% to any sort of equilibrium, because they are the big contributers who help get them their nice comfy piece of the pie in politics.
> 
> We could do what the Yanks have done and say **** the poor! But then we'll have the same, destitution, and crime they do (just without the guns). You can drive through any part of any city at any time you like in this country; we don't have square kilometers of ghettos sprawled across the outskirts of our cities. I like it that way.



We have done what the yanks have done. We've been a country of bi-partisian neoliberals for nearly as long as them. The only difference is the US had a massive manufacturing base that was so big due to them coming out of WW2 relatively unscathed. Now it's gone and regardless of what any politician says, it's not coming back. Australia is the same in those regards.

Also for the OP. The outrageous cost is the reason why I got into homebrew and I'm sure many, many others. Thank god that they haven't made home brewing illegal!


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## neal32 (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Funnily enough I have been giving euthanasia a lot of thought, I was all for it, let people die with dignity but 2 years ago I was ready to let go of life, even looking forward to it, then went on a trial and came good, though one never gets cured of cancer it has given me some more years (don't know how many) so unless they get the policy right I can't now say I fully agree with it.



Your entitled to your opinion but if it came to a vote, would you vote against it and keep thousands in a state of needless, expensive suffering against their own will?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (10/11/17)

Bribie G said:


> The main result of making Pre mixed drinks so expensive was to basically kick off widespread cider drinking in Australia.
> 
> Before that, cider was a weird thing that vegans and funny old men with funny whiskers drank. There was Strongbow, Mercury, end of story.


If we ever do get reform of excise it will probably be called the Rekorderlig amendment: it's basically apple based alcopop but the apple base means it pays half the tax.


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## madpierre06 (10/11/17)

neal32 said:


> Your entitled to your opinion but if it came to a vote, would you vote against it and keep thousands in a state of needless, expensive suffering against their own will?



Is it only needless, expensive suffering because we refuse to let someone die naturally? As his knowledge grows, whether it be medical or other areas, man seems determined to play God, or even supplant God. Relative to the OP, inequity in taxation systems allows nobody other than the already powerful to prosper at the expense of the less powerful.

And WEAL...I'm not making any statement regarding your situation, I'm really pleased for you that you've had a significant improvement in your health...my statement is purely rhetorical.


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## wereprawn (10/11/17)

madpierre06 said:


> Is it only needless, expensive suffering because we refuse to let someone die naturally? As his knowledge grows, whether it be medical or other areas, man seems determined to play God, or even supplant God. Relative to the OP, inequity in taxation systems allows nobody other than the already powerful to prosper at the expense of the less powerful.


What constitutes a natural death? By that logic we should withhold all life extending treatment.


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## Dave70 (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> The top 1% of wage earners in this country probably each pay less tax than you do, they earn more that the entire bottom 20%, but no politician is ever going to go out of their way to tie this 1% to any sort of equilibrium, because they are the big contributers who help get them their nice comfy piece of the pie in politics.
> 
> We could do what the Yanks have done and say **** the poor! But then we'll have the same, destitution, and crime they do (just without the guns). You can drive through any part of any city at any time you like in this country; we don't have square kilometers of ghettos sprawled across the outskirts of our cities. I like it that way.



How have the yanks said **** the poor? On the contrary, poverty is on the decline in the US.
https://www.ft.com/content/ae5c0264-97d1-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b
And indeed, globally.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...s-even-amid-economic-slowdown-world-bank-says

Here's a plan that will guarantee (well, a 75% guarantee) you middle class status in pretty much any western country, obtainable by virtually anyone.
Take your education seriously.
Get a job.
Work hard.
Keep working hard.
Exercise thrift.
Dont have children out of wedlock (mainly directed toward women) 

Unforeseen calamitys aside, If you follow this prescription and still wind up broke, you basically suck with money. And some folks do. I know. I'm related to quite a few..


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## madpierre06 (10/11/17)

wereprawn said:


> What constitutes a natural death? By that logic we should withhold all life extending treatment.



Every day, life extending treatment takes another step forward....make of that what you will.


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## Bribie G (10/11/17)

There's an excellent series of current articles on The Conversation, about assisted dying.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

neal32 said:


> Your entitled to your opinion but if it came to a vote, would you vote against it and keep thousands in a state of needless, expensive suffering against their own will?


That is the reason I mentioned to get the policy right , terminal should mean terminal, with no get out of jail card there must be absolutely no chance of a recovery before an assisted death is carried out.


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## madpierre06 (10/11/17)

Bribie G said:


> There's an excellent series of current articles on The Conversation, about assisted dying.
> 
> View attachment 109680



You must be new here.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/11/17)

Bribie G said:


> There's an excellent series of current articles on The Conversation, about assisted dying.
> 
> View attachment 109680


A Gold star for Leyther he tried to get it back on track. From rip off beer prices to assisted dying, who would believe it.


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

Bribie G said:


> There's an excellent series of current articles on The Conversation, about assisted dying.
> 
> View attachment 109680


Oops, this is what happens when you've got the flu and feel like dying.


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## Bridges (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> A Gold star for Leyther he tried to get it back on track. From rip off beer prices to assisted dying, who would believe it.


ME!


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## garage_life (10/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would say death is worse than broke, broke you can get over, death is irreversible.


True, but if there money being made I don't see a lot of it going into help for the helpless "goon bag at 10am every day" types, specifically the under 30s that fall into a bad situation and can't get themselves out, or any age really. Lifespan dramatically increased and financial burden on the government increased. Not good for anyone, anywhere.


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## garage_life (10/11/17)

Bribie G said:


> As a former Allens Sweets, then Rothmans, rep I've seen literally thousands of small businesses. In my case they were nearly all in the retail / service sector but what warra refers to would apply to all small business.
> 
> It struck me (and ask any rep they'd probably agree) that a good proportion of small businesses are started by people who either want to buy themselves a job or, worse, are totally unemployable in the real world.
> How often do you see (for example in the local rag) .. _after being made redundant from the engineering company Robert decided to follow his lifelong dream and finally realise his plan to manufacture and sell widgets...
> ...


You need to have the heart and drive and be able to hand the reigns over when the time comes to someone objective. And also knows what they are actually doing. See it all the time too. (Not necessarily brewing related businesses)


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## garage_life (10/11/17)

Grott said:


> Not sure if Australia wide but in SA the government introduced a hefty tax on alcohol drink mixtures like those can mixes (eg UDL) and alcopop bottles in an attempt to stop teenage binge drinking. All this did was to actually force an alternative. Buy a bottle of strong alcohol and mix your own.
> 
> Now at least one positive issue with the mixes was the alcohol content at the start of the “binge” was at least the same at the end of the “binge.
> By mixing their own the problem has worsened, as like most that mix, start off with more mixer than alcohol, end up more alcohol than mixer.


Also the big companies started making all those "girlie" beers, that 7% extra dry stuff and the flavoured sugar water cider explosion etc. No self respecting person over 20 is drinking that shaite.


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## garage_life (10/11/17)

captain crumpet said:


> Can i bring euthanasia into this? Or is that too taboo? I mean If society forces you into quick sand and doesn't throw you a rope...


Have you seen Phillip Nitschke "home brew gas shop"? [emoji16]


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## spog (10/11/17)

15+ yrs ago when in Norway I paid the equivalent of $120.00 AU for a slab of beer, savoured every drop ! Pricey, yep but at least the Gubnment up there looks after its people. At the time GST was at 27%.


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## labels (10/11/17)

WoW, just how far has this thread drifted off-topic.
It has become a socialists vs capatilist argument and all the time what was being said is, beer is so much more expensive here than most other countries, simple.
What does it matter to us ? - we make our own. Some cases it costs us far more and in some cases it costs far less ( I'm in the far less category)


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

labels said:


> WoW, just how far has this thread drifted off-topic.
> It has become a socialists vs capatilist argument and all the time what was being said is, beer is so much more expensive here than most other countries, simple.
> What does it matter to us ? - we make our own. Some cases it costs us far more and in some cases it costs far less ( I'm in the far less category)


I keep upgrading and building stuff, and buying stuff, the slippery slope in some cases is a vertical drop.


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## manticle (11/11/17)

Dave70 said:


> How have the yanks said **** the poor? On the contrary, poverty is on the decline in the US.
> https://www.ft.com/content/ae5c0264-97d1-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b
> And indeed, globally.
> https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...s-even-amid-economic-slowdown-world-bank-says
> ...


So the other 25%, when counted with calamities (and mental and physical illness and disability) is exactly where the easy solution doesn't fit.

Your list is fine for most people, myself included ( except 'wedlock' - change to 'not ready or willing' in this context.) Those who can't, make up a good portion of those who don't. Those who won't, are a minority.


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## SeeFar (11/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Funnily enough I have been giving euthanasia a lot of thought, I was all for it, let people die with dignity but 2 years ago I was ready to let go of life, even looking forward to it, then went on a trial and came good, though one never gets cured of cancer it has given me some more years (don't know how many) so unless they get the policy right I can't now say I fully agree with it.



I’m really happy to hear that you’re on the up, sincerely hope that is the way it remains. 

However, I don’t see why your experiences should be the basis from which you judge every one else’s.


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## SeeFar (11/11/17)

Leyther said:


> Australia, the lucky country or the ripoff expensive country?



A clarification that it sounds you will agree with, AUstralia the lucky country is a quote often misunderstood. The original sentiment was that we are lucky we inherited such a good system of governance because our politicians are so useless that without that system we’d all be fucked.


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## malt junkie (11/11/17)

SeeFar said:


> However, I don’t see why your experiences should be the basis from which you judge every one else’s.



Most of what we as people know is based on personally experiencing something, you make judgments everyday based on that. 
Have a think, you didn't learn to walk by reading a book. For a lot of things the cheap seats view is a really comfy spot, because unless you've been there done that; you've got no ******* idea.


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## wide eyed and legless (11/11/17)

Bribie G said:


> There's an excellent series of current articles on The Conversation, about assisted dying.
> 
> View attachment 109680


There is also an extensive thread somewhere on here about assisted dying, started off as using nitrogen in brewing, think it ended up as halal food.


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## madpierre06 (11/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is also an extensive thread somewhere on here about assisted dying, started off as using nitrogen in brewing, think it ended up as halal food.



Didn't everything end up with 'halal food' there at one stage?


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## wereprawn (11/11/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is also an extensive thread somewhere on here about assisted dying, started off as using nitrogen in brewing, think it ended up as halal food.


Makes sense.... we need to insure our Muslim brothers and sisters have no dog, pig ect in their nitrogen.


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## Bribie G (11/11/17)

Pigs feet look suspiciously like cloven hooves to me.


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## bradsbrew (11/11/17)

madpierre06 said:


> Didn't everything end up with 'halal food' there at one stage?


I still do not understand why easter eggs are halal


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## madpierre06 (11/11/17)

bradsbrew said:


> I still do not understand why easter eggs are halal



I seen wot you did there.


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## captain crumpet (11/11/17)

bradsbrew said:


> I still do not understand why easter eggs are halal



I still dont understand how Easter turned into the capatilist abomination it is now. Much like Christmas.

But seriously, why does no one complain about kosher? It's the same crap, or is Judaism still off the table after 'you know what?'


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## madpierre06 (11/11/17)

captain crumpet said:


> I still dont understand how Easter turned into the capatilist abomination it is now. Much like Christmas.
> 
> But seriously, why does no one complain about kosher? It's the same crap, or is Judaism still off the table after 'you know what?'



I don't think companies are falling over themselves to be certified 'kosher' to show how diverse and inclusive they are...


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## captain crumpet (11/11/17)

madpierre06 said:


> I don't think companies are falling over themselves to be certified 'kosher' to show how diverse and inclusive they are...



Right. 

Nothing to do with anti islamic propaganda being the social flavour of the month. 

Anyone else here been to 'Israel'?


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## captain crumpet (11/11/17)

Capatalism is all about maximum prophit profit. Easter, xmas, halal, kosher.... whatever. Im not a religious type of person but i dont understand the islamic discriminstion. In my experience, anyone who claims to be part of a religious institution is ******* insane.


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## good4whatAlesU (11/11/17)

Well, depends on the religion.

The Norse had a god for Ale and Mead, not a bad religion.

Back on topic. Yes, we are getting ripped off. It takes 500 members to register a political party. Australia only has to blame themselves for who they vote into power.


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## madpierre06 (11/11/17)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Well, depends on the religion.
> 
> The Norse had a god for Ale and Mead, not a bad religion.
> 
> Back on topic. Yes, we are getting ripped off. It takes 500 members to register a political party. Australia only has to blame themselves for who they vote into power.



Self ineterest and giving little thought to the impact on the country as a whole has given us the ineptness we now have a-plenty. We bow down to the clay idol that is 'overseas investment', when we have all the resources here which we need to support ourselves, the harvesting of which would support us and allow some to make a liveable profit.....if only we were satisfied with a reasonable profit...not the need to push profit margins higher and higher each year to be considered a success. All outr best produce and resources go overseas or into high end restaurants (produce), while us plebs make do with cheap produce and imported trinkets from asia which has little quality care...and our govts. actively support this practice.


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## Bridges (11/11/17)

bradsbrew said:


> I still do not understand why easter eggs are halal



They're not easter eggs anymore, I think you'll find they are either simply chocolate eggs or hunting eggs, easter doesn't even rate a mention on the packaging. Personally I like to roll with "hollow chocolate fertility symbols in the pagan tradition"


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## mondestrunken (11/11/17)

Haha this thread has become awesome.


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/17)

Bridges said:


> They're not easter eggs anymore, I think you'll find they are either simply chocolate eggs or hunting eggs, easter doesn't even rate a mention on the packaging. Personally I like to roll with "hollow chocolate fertility symbols in the pagan tradition"


Funny isn't it, that though on the whole we don't associate the religious holidays with religion or even the pagan beliefs that we on the whole were brought up with, and with respect for those that still follow their religious beliefs, that Easter and Christmas is now frowned upon in favour of political correctness. (Festivus for the restovus. Frank Costanza.)


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## Dave70 (13/11/17)

manticle said:


> So the other 25%, when counted with calamities (and mental and physical illness and disability) is exactly where the easy solution doesn't fit.
> 
> Your list is fine for most people, myself included ( except 'wedlock' - change to 'not ready or willing' in this context.) Those who can't, make up a good portion of those who don't. Those who won't, are a minority.



I didn't say my guide to better living was foolproof, its more a template with some rubbery figures. And you need to get your act together, put a ring on it and start a family. Us men have the luxury of procrastination till our dying day whilst our lady folk's ovaries are drying up. But choose wisely, the breakdown of the family is more destructive than global warming, (according to the UK SUN)
Hows that for a non sequitur. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...destructive-as-effects-of-global-warming.html

Bought some more beer last weekend. Fuckin expensive as..


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## manticle (13/11/17)

I choose kidless


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## Lionman (14/11/17)

manticle said:


> I choose kidless



Wise man.

I think Australians have themselves to blame for high beer prices. If there weren't so many beer swilling bogan **** knuckles around then the government wouldn't have such an easy excuse for high tax rates on beer. It seems the only way Australian government know how to even try to curb unwanted behaviour is to make that behaviour more expensive.

That and the government is too spineless and/or corrupt to actually collect tax from those who earn the most so have to scrape up some revenue from the working class plebs.

Probably repeating what has been said.


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## malt junkie (14/11/17)

Lionman said:


> Wise man.
> 
> I think Australians have themselves to blame for high beer prices. If there weren't so many beer swilling bogan **** knuckles around then the government wouldn't have such an easy excuse for high tax rates on beer. It seems the only way Australian government know how to even try to curb unwanted behaviour is to make that behaviour more expensive.
> 
> ...


None of the **** knuckles in Alice or Brokenhill drink beer mate, it's a 4L cask.


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## Maheel (14/11/17)

lol when i googled Easter egg packaging


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## Lionman (14/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> None of the **** knuckles in Alice or Brokenhill drink beer mate, it's a 4L cask.



Thats a different demographic that the government isn't interested in helping...


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## malt junkie (14/11/17)

Lionman said:


> Thats another demographic that the government isn't interested in helping...



FTFY


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## mondestrunken (15/11/17)

The only problem with putting in WET-style tax relief on beer would be that - you can just picture it can't you - the megabreweries would start up thousands of small breweries that all produce the same carb-free mid-strength that they already do.

So the only way around it that I can think of it would be an inverse hop tax, i.e. the more hops you put in, the less tax you pay.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (15/11/17)

mondestrunken said:


> The only problem with putting in WET-style tax relief on beer would be that - you can just picture it can't you - the megabreweries would start up thousands of small breweries that all produce the same carb-free mid-strength that they already do.



The megaswill wineries already tried that one*, so the law was changed to tighten the definition of independent entity.



*Substitute warm climate Pinot Gris for mid strength beer and you get the picture. Actually that says a lot about the drinks market in Oz.


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## mondestrunken (15/11/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The megaswill wineries already tried that one*, so the law was changed to tighten the definition of independent entity.


Wow. Isn't that fantastic. See what politicians can do when they try (and/or personal interest is involved)!


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## koshari (16/11/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Actually that says a lot about the drinks market in Oz.


we are so far behind the US and UK in regards to choice of locally produced beers it is actually quite sad. there are at least 10 brewers than i know of within warwickshire in the UK. compare that with 3 adjoining shires here (closest equivelent of a county) Latrobe-1 (grand ridge mirboo) Baw Baw-nil and cardinia-1 (howler lang lang).

Combine that with the fact we pay round $5 ea for a pot of synthetically brewed mega-swill and its becomes pretty obvious taste isn’t one of our main priorities!


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## mondestrunken (17/11/17)

And the thread comes full circle. Thank you. Wouldn't it be great to be a beerhunter here in Australia without the need of a god-damn telescope.

Edit: OK on reflection I didn't mention brewery spatial density originally, but neither did I mention halal meat.


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## BrockHops (17/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> None of the **** knuckles in Alice or Brokenhill drink beer mate, it's a 4L cask.


Oi! I'm from Broken Hill!
Well, I suppose I am a fuckknuckle, even a bogan beer swilling fuckknuckle, but...
I haven't drank goon since Primary school.
Enough generalising.
How expensive is beer hey?


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