# Infections, Why Are Some Immune?



## jgriffin (23/7/05)

After losing yet another batch of beer to infections, i really wonder why some people manage to get away with no infections, while others like me are cursed (having never had one before moving into this place, i swear i must have some bug in my brew room that is causing me grief)

Take my local HBS guy for example. He swears by using sodium met. He also claims never in his life to have ever pulled apart his tap to clean it, and only rinses his fermenters in sodium met after rinsing them out after the last batch. I was also speaking to him today about racking from his glass carboys, and what he uses. He claims he just uses tubing, then blows (yes with his mouth) down the neck of the carboy to start the suction, or when using plastic carboys, sucks on the tube to get it going.

He does everything wrong, yet claims to never have ever had an infection. I rinse everything with all kinds of sanitisers, use alcohol on my hands, never touch anything after sanitising, yet i can't seem to get rid of my current infection problem. :-(


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## ozbrewer (23/7/05)

have you tasted the HBS guys beer?...maybe he does have infections but is so used to it that he cant tell...

As far as your brewery goes, where do you brew, Inside, outside, in the kitchen?

A silly question, but do you put your Hydro sample back in the fermenter?

Are you noticing your infection in the fermenter?

Areyou using a CFC / Immersion chiller/ Sitting in a wate bath?

is there somthing your adding to the fermenter, sugars? yeast neutrients?


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## Darren (23/7/05)

ozbrewer said:


> have you tasted the HBS guys beer?...maybe he does have infections but is so used to it that he cant tell...
> 
> [post="68283"][/post]​




I agree. Homebrew shop owner is like a used-car salesman. Listen to, but don't take as gospel what they say!

Out of curiosity, How long you waiting for your beer to mature? Green flavours can sometimes be perceived as infections

cheers
Darren


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## Ross (23/7/05)

Bad luck John...

I thought you'd solved the problem with that rusted regulator - 
I dread just losing 1 beer - really feel for you....


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## jimmysuperlative (23/7/05)

I've heard of people having "bugs" in their fermenters ...a bit like golden staph in hospitals I suppose??

I have been lucky -touch wood- in spite of some pretty sloppy sanitation in my early days. But, anyway, reading your post reminded me of an article i read years ago about a bloke in the states who ran a brew shop and successfully brewed batches on his premises without a problem. He moved shop and suddenly found batch after batch becoming infected. I think it turned out to be an "airborne" bug from a suspect air con unit. The upshot of his discovery was to move to a "closed brewing" process -lots of stainless kegs etc all connected and gravity fed ...looked real expensive, and probably out of the normal brewers range, but ....

Not really helpful, was it? I think I was trying to say that you may have to look around your environment for a cause. Your own sanitising methods would be hard to fault.  

Whatabout a "jealous" fellow brewer? :lol:


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## Linz (23/7/05)

and again I say..The tap was the place I got my first (and only, touch wood) infection.

It was one of thse twist type of tap(standard chem drum type tap)and the bugs were up in the groove between the two parts of the tap(impossible to see if it were black). Now I ONLY use snap taps that disassemble completely.

wash everything once you have used it; and wash it and sanitise it when you go to use it again.


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## ozbrewer (23/7/05)

the standard taps come apart pretty easy to


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## jgriffin (23/7/05)

Quick note, this wasn't meant to be a "why did i get infected" thread. I sorta already know - i was brewing an alt with WLP029 which i've found to be extrememly slow fermenting, so i pitched, saw the krausen, and left for 2 weeks, only to check after 14 days and find a beer stuck at 1030 and smelling like vinegar.

I'm more curious (and upset) about how some people can do all the wrong things and get away with it. I used to have shocking sanitation as a kit brewer, and always get away with it. Now i'm fastidous, and do AG so the whole bloody lot is boiled for an hour, and i've suffered more infections in the last 6 months than anyone should do in their whole life.


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## ozbrewer (23/7/05)

jgriffin said:


> Quick note, this wasn't meant to be a "why did i get infected" thread. I sorta already know - snip.
> 
> I'm more curious (and upset) about how some people can do all the wrong things and get away with it.
> [post="68292"][/post]​




ok then...that is easy to answer.......cos there lucky bastards


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## Bilph (24/7/05)

I think "where you brew" can influence the risks as well.
Things like proximity to foodstuffs, open air, etc - of _*all*_ equipment - can have the strangest affect.
I've read somewhere here (a POL post I think) of someone who moved their brewing from kitchen (high volume of foodstuff) to laundry and subsequently brewed infection free.
I brew in the shed out the back, and while I am anal about sterilisation, I'm also happy to say I've never had an infection, even with lagged ferments and a couple of accidental risky procedures. Theoretically there isn't too much out there to cause problems other than airborne wild yeast. Proper yeast activation techniques can guard fairly easily against them.
Sometimes areas which appear clean aren't quite as they seem.
Overall, a few too many variables to say anything definitive.
There's a coupla cheap cents worth.


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## Malnourished (24/7/05)

jgriffin said:


> I'm more curious (and upset) about how some people can do all the wrong things and get away with it. I used to have shocking sanitation as a kit brewer, and always get away with it. Now i'm fastidous, and do AG so the whole bloody lot is boiled for an hour, and i've suffered more infections in the last 6 months than anyone should do in their whole life.[post="68292"][/post]​



There are many extra variables (not necessarily sanitation) which can cause infection in AG as opposed to kits I reckon.
Making starters are obviously a big one, and if your beer only got to 1030 in two weeks maybe something went wrong there. 
Grain dust is also a great source of beer-spoiling bugs.

There aren't all that many processes in kit brewing to bugger up.


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## FNQ Bunyip (24/7/05)

I only brew kits but lots of them... had a few infections over time and have noted that windy days are no good to start a brew if its blowing it nearly allways gets an infection ... and water from thunder storms brews in 2 to 3 days, and its all over must be the charged state..
Cheers 
fnqbunyip


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## sosman (24/7/05)

jgriffin said:


> Quick note, this wasn't meant to be a "why did i get infected" thread. I sorta already know - i was brewing an alt with WLP029 which i've found to be extrememly slow fermenting, so i pitched, saw the krausen, and left for 2 weeks, only to check after 14 days and find a beer stuck at 1030 and smelling like vinegar.
> [post="68292"][/post]​


Well at least the vinegar smell narrows it down. As for why you, it sounds like a specific bug has taken hold in your brewery and normal sanitation methods are no longer effective. Either try some radically different method or chuck out tubing, fermenters and taps etc.


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## Borret (24/7/05)

FNQ Bunyip said:


> I only brew kits but lots of them... had a few infections over time and have noted that windy days are no good to start a brew if its blowing it nearly allways gets an infection ... and water from thunder storms brews in 2 to 3 days, and its all over must be the charged state..
> Cheers
> fnqbunyip
> [post="68299"][/post]​


Interesting....
Growing up on farm I was alway led to believe that there is far more nitrogen in rain from a thunderstorm as the lighting creates nitrogen oxide. Just found this-

"In the lightning bolt the intense heat splits both nitrogen and oxygen molecules into atoms, and as they cool, many combine to form oxides of nitrogen. These compounds dissolve in rain and are carried into the soil. There, converted into nitrates, they provide a vital fertilizer for growing plants. This is a major process for the natural fixation of nitrogen. It is estimated that hundreds of millions of tons of nitrate are provided every year by thunderstorms."

So if yeast like nitrogen (which I believe they do) then this would explain the quicker fermantaion times.  Obviously it also makes grass grow better for the cattle to munch on.

Cheers

Borret :blink:


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## pint of lager (24/7/05)

There are good HBS and bad. Some could be selling paint, chainsaws or perfume. Others take great pride in their product and advice. I bet JGriff's HBS beer is all infected.

As to the infection, "every beer is infected, it just depends with what and to what degree." After working on culturing yeast on petri dishes, you realise just how much grunge is floating around. Some brewers know the tastes of infected beers, others seem to have tastebuds immune to the sour off flavours. 

I am sure you have pulled apart and cleaned every surface in your brewgear and replaced all the plastic hoses.

The suggestion about grain dust is important. It is best to store, weigh and crush your grain away from your brew areas.

Another trouble spot is valves, even nice stainless steel valves often have a trap behind them. 

To help rule out something going wrong with your starters, go back to dried yeasts. You could even do a K&K, this would help point out if it is something in your fermnetation, kegging or bottling and rule out your yeast preparation and ag.


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## Kai (24/7/05)

jgriffin said:


> Quick note, this wasn't meant to be a "why did i get infected" thread. I sorta already know - i was brewing an alt with WLP029 which i've found to be extrememly slow fermenting, so i pitched, saw the krausen, and left for 2 weeks, only to check after 14 days and find a beer stuck at 1030 and smelling like vinegar.
> 
> I'm more curious (and upset) about how some people can do all the wrong things and get away with it



Luck


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (24/7/05)

Interesting point about 'where you brew'.

I am a shed brewer, in addition to the normal brewing hygiene regime I liberally squirt the walls, roof, nooks and crannies and surfaces with a spray mister full of a suitable steriliser before and after each brew session.

You cant be too careful.

my2c worth


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## Darren (24/7/05)

pint of lager said:


> The suggestion about grain dust is important. It is best to store, weigh and crush your grain away from your brew areas.
> 
> 
> [post="68331"][/post]​




Good point there POL. Now days I shower and change my clothes (the ones I had on whilst crushing) before I pitch the yeast.

cheers
Darren


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## jgriffin (24/7/05)

Well it seems that i may have to move (involuntarily) so we'll see what happens after i move. Probably won't brew till then as it's a pain moving beer.


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## jimmysuperlative (24/7/05)

...found that article on closed system:

Closed-system brewing BT article


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## jgriffin (24/7/05)

I find the quote below interesting

"Every time I turned on the air conditioner I pumped the store full of black mold and other really bad stuff at high enough concentrations to contaminate the wort even with limited exposure."

Out the back of my house i have these gum trees that literally spray everything with this fine black mould. I literally have to use bleack on the pool surround and the bricks and table etc each month to remove it. Wonder if this stuff is getting into my beer.


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## Kai (24/7/05)

The air conditioning is a good point, I always turn mine off when I brew or bottle.


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## warrenlw63 (25/7/05)

A way I found to minimize infections when racking to a keg and having to leave the lid off. Instead of dropping the racking hose to the bottom of the keg is to get yourself a spare liquid disconnect and pop 2 inches of smaller diameter hose on the barb.

Rack from your carboy to the disconnect by joining the 2 hoses and go via the dip tube. Racking can be done with the lid still on the keg then. Just leave the relief valve open. Takes a little longer to fill the keg, however you've basically got an enclosed system then.

Take the lid off when you're near the end to check liquid level or just let the keg overfill. As soon as you see some liquid, stop racking and just runoff a couple of hundred mls of beer for headspace and purge as usual.

Warren -


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## Jazzafish (25/7/05)

I'm sure we all use the following system... for everything in contact with the brew. 

1st Clean
2nd Sanitise
3rd Sterilize

But as mentioned before, how well do we clean, sanitise and sterilize ourselves? We do come in contact with the beer. We should be as clean as possible. Do you smoke around your beer? Any Pets?

Also mentioned is the room where you brew... Is the air ok? Air con? Alot of things to point a finger at...

You also mentioned you are using liquid yeast, is it a culture? Perhaps the infection is with the yeastor culture itself?

So many possibles. Should probally look at the most likely and work your way through an elimination process. Even if you brew a couple of extracts to save a bigger effort?

Cheers,
Jarrad


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## Kai (25/7/05)

I never do step 3


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## warrenlw63 (25/7/05)

Kai said:


> I never do step 3
> [post="68437"][/post]​



You'd need a bloody big autoclave and/or pressure cooker.

Warren -


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## pint of lager (25/7/05)

I do step 3 when doing yeast farming work. Petri dishes with agar media, 100 ml erlenmeyer with 60ml of starter wort and 2x250 ml erlenmeyer full of wort for second step go in the pressure cooker. I then be as aseptic as possible with transfers.

But for general brewing, sanitary is as good as it gets.


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## Kai (25/7/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> Kai said:
> 
> 
> > I never do step 3
> ...




Hence why


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## PeterS (25/7/05)

Jazzafish said:


> I'm sure we all use the following system... for everything in contact with the brew.
> 
> 1st Clean
> 2nd Sanitise
> ...



Now I done it, next doors cat did not like the idea of being sterilized, now I am all scratched...I don't blame him, I would not like to be sterilised either...


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## pint of lager (26/7/05)

A beer that is showing signs of infection after 14 days, the time frame would indicate a gross infection souce. Usually infections take a while to show up.

This would indicate a large contaminating source. If you use a CFC, give it a pressure test to see if there is leakage between the two flows.

The fact that the fermentation is stuck is strange too. Have you had problems with stuck ferments before?


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## warrenlw63 (26/7/05)

pint of lager said:


> If you use a CFC, give it a pressure test to see if there is leakage between the two flows.
> 
> [post="68566"][/post]​



I'd be more inclined to wonder if the thing is clean. That's what scares me with CF chillers. How are you supposed to know?  

Leakage between the the two flows would be fairly unlikely. Only place this could occur would be the joints. This would have to be noticed with more wort in the fermenter and a lower SG than what was in the boiler?? That aside you're really only getting a bit of tap water coming through.

Give me an immersion chiller any day.

Warren -


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## Gough (26/7/05)

I'm with you on that one Warren. CF chillers have always made me nervous as another source of infection.

Immersion chiller's of the world unite! :lol: 

Shawn.


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## shmick (26/7/05)

My only infection in recent memory (10yrs) was mould in the secondary.
I put it down to either infected dry hop plugs or a non-sealing fermenter lid.

When I pulled out the airlock to rack to bulk prime it smelled like rotting rainforest timber so I took off the lid and it had several white lumps the size of 50c pieces with green spots :blink: .
Almost cried when I dumped it as the mouldy smell was soon overtaken by the aroma of the EKG hops. Sad sad day.

I also noticed the inside of my fermenting freezer was damp and covered in little black spots of mould. Scrubbed it with 'Exit Mould' cleaner followed by a bath in isopropanol. I now give it a quick spray & wipe with alcohol before each use and it hasn't returned.

I haven't bought any more plugs (or anything at all actually) from that particular HBS since some time later I saw him hand a plug to a customer for a smell and then put it back in his fridge!  . Made me wonder what bugs I'd been buying up till then.


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## warrenlw63 (26/7/05)

Gough said:


> Immersion chiller's of the world unite! :lol:
> 
> Shawn.
> [post="68569"][/post]​



By decree of the state... our new logo. :beerbang: :lol: 

Warren - :wacko:


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## Gough (26/7/05)

:lol: :lol: 

The People's Brewery! When do we start the first 5 year plan?? Very nice... :lol: 

Shawn.


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## shmick (26/7/05)

Do you realise you'll now have to share the one chiller between several communes as the state doesn't wan't to spoil the workers.
The extra funds can be put into some catchy jingles.


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## Gough (26/7/05)

I knew there had to be a catch... :lol: 

Shawn.


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## RobW (26/7/05)

shmick said:


> Do you realise you'll now have to share the one chiller between several communes as the state doesn't wan't to spoil the workers.
> The extra funds can be put into some catchy jingles.
> [post="68600"][/post]​



They'll actually melt down all the superfluous ones & use the copper to make a huge statue of the leader


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## pint of lager (26/7/05)

Immersion chillers will be banned along the eastern seaboard due to water shortages. They use too much water. The minister of chillers will be around to check on what sort you are running and will charge you $150 to issue a certificate of compliance.

On on a less frivilous note, the cfc is made from copper, how often have you seen mould growing on copper? So long as it is teated right, it will give years of service. The plastic section is another matter, and half a litre of water leaking from the cooling side to the wort side wouldn't change the og much, but would dump lot of nasties into the wort.


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## Borret (26/7/05)

pint of lager said:


> Immersion chillers will be banned along the eastern seaboard due to water shortages. They use too much water. The minister of chillers will be around to check on what sort you are running and will charge you $150 to issue a certificate of compliance.
> [post="68607"][/post]​



Except in the Luxurious Hunter valley where we are still allowed to hose hard surfaces.  (not that we do.......)

Bring on the immersion chillers marching music

Borret


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## shmick (26/7/05)

Borret said:


> pint of lager said:
> 
> 
> > Immersion chillers will be banned along the eastern seaboard due to water shortages. They use too much water. The minister of chillers will be around to check on what sort you are running and will charge you $150 to issue a certificate of compliance.
> ...



Aren't the Novocastrians under self imposed restrictions so they can hoard away their treasure and refuse to sell any to the poor Coasties  

Can't complain ATM. We clawed our way back up to 30% storage capacity after the recent deluge - should last us at least another 2 wks if we keep taking dust showers and drinking our own urine. :beerbang:


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## warrenlw63 (26/7/05)

So,

When shall we strike up the the "Chiller Manifesto" ??? :unsure: 

We must make a statement against the CFWC bourgeois.  

Warren -


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## Gough (26/7/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> So,
> 
> Who when shall we strike up the the "Chiller Manifesto" ??? :unsure:
> 
> ...



Hey, hold your horses comrade I'm working on it  

Shawnski


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## Gough (26/7/05)

shmick said:


> Borret said:
> 
> 
> > pint of lager said:
> ...



Quit complaining comrade shmick or the NKVD will pay you a visit. All water users are equal, just some more equal than others :beerbang: 

Shawnskov


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## Borret (26/7/05)

Its the Volkswagen vs the Porsche.

The Peoples chiller gets you from A-B the same as the Porsche. The guy in the Porsche thinks hes better cause he paid more for it, its more high tech and its faster. But the in the Peoples immersion chiller is less complicated, cheaper to insure and repair and when it needs a bath you just give it a quick hose instead of covering it with herbs potions and lotions to keep it pristine.

Bugles blazing

Borret :blink:


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## Borret (26/7/05)

Oh and both have far from desirable fuel ecconomy!


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## warrenlw63 (26/7/05)

Me holding horses???  

Do you take me for a proletariat? :blink: 

Warren -


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## Borret (26/7/05)

Damb accademic jargon. I hate it when I have to get out the dictionary just to be bamboozled by more academic jargon.

Borret


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## warrenlw63 (26/7/05)

Get out a dictionary? :huh: 

Borret, Borret, Borret....

Let your mouse do the walking  

Dictionary

Warren -


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## barls (26/7/05)

Borret said:


> Oh and both have far from desirable fuel ecconomy!
> [post="68619"][/post]​



i get quite good fuel economy from my bug thank you very much.


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## Borret (26/7/05)

I only metaphorically pulled out my dictionary. 

I coincidently googled after which I became bamboozled. 

Borret


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## RobW (26/7/05)

Hey Borret - is Borret an anagram?


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## Borret (26/7/05)

Why, have you got some ideas? 
It was actually Borat ( from kaszakstan...Ali-G) but I spelt it wrong when I started posting on Grumpys and it stuck.
Crazy Eyes Brewery :blink: on the other hand has more significance.

Borret :blink:


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## sosman (26/7/05)

Gough said:


> I'm with you on that one Warren. CF chillers have always made me nervous as another source of infection.
> 
> Immersion chiller's of the world unite! :lol:
> [post="68569"][/post]​


My IC sits all forlorn in the corner. The only reason why I keep it is in case my CFC happens to blow a hose, which aint going to happen real soon.

As for infection risk, my IC forces me to leave the lid off my kettle during cooling, the whole lot cools down gradually so the wort sits for a considerable period of time in a warm (bacteria friendly) state. On balance, I feel at less risk of infection using my CFC.


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## warrenlw63 (26/7/05)

sosman said:


> my IC forces me to leave the lid off my kettle during cooling



Not necessarily true. It's easy enough to make a lid to fit the chiller so to speak... I've got a plastic one that snaps over the top of the chiller. This covers the whole boiler during cooling. Any minor gaps or draught points can be covered with foil.

My worry with CF is this. Look at the outside of your immersion chiller when you pull it from the boiler. Dried protein/trub/hop residue cover the surface. Something similar would have to reside inside a CF chiller.

If I were to own CF again I'd be flushing it thoroughly with boiling water after use. Some form of cleaner would be even better. That said pumping boiling water through the CF for 20 mins. would have to have the same effects of boiling an immersion chiller in wort for 20 mins.

Warren -


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## Kai (26/7/05)

So long as you clean a CFWC quickly and thoroughly I wouldn't be too worried about what's going on inside those pipes.


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## RobW (27/7/05)

Borret said:


> Why, have you got some ideas?
> It was actually Borat ( from kaszakstan...Ali-G) but I spelt it wrong when I started posting on Grumpys and it stuck.
> Crazy Eyes Brewery :blink: on the other hand has more significance.
> 
> ...



Well I was looking at it yesterday & wondering what it could mean when I realised it's an anagram for Robert (a fine name if I say so myself). But the real story is more interesting. And I'll take the bait - tell about Crazy Eyes Brewery.


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## Borret (27/7/05)

RobW said:


> Borret said:
> 
> 
> > Why, have you got some ideas?
> ...



Crazy Eyes Brewery- If you have seen Mr Deeds (Adam Sandler movie) then I have something in common with the character Crazy Eyes (perhaps not quite that bad., but was when I was born) 
The name was going to be Crazy Eyes and Son as one of my kids unfortunately inherited my condition but his corrective surgery (only a couple of months ago at the age of 13months) was more successful than mine was. He is also a coeliac (and a super sensitive one at that) so he will never drink real beer.  

Cheers

Borret :blink:


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## sosman (26/8/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> sosman said:
> 
> 
> > my IC forces me to leave the lid off my kettle during cooling
> ...


Well if I let it run dry that might possibly be a problem but it never gets an opportunity, the last wort is flushed out with phos acid solution followed by rinse with cold water then recirculate phos acid.

As for lid, I'll bet your "fitted" lid is the exception rather than the rule.

I also found that there was no point starting the whirlpool until I removed the IC, with the CFC, I whirlpool as soon as I flameout.


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## Bazza (27/8/05)

ozbrewer said:


> the standard taps come apart pretty easy to
> [post="68290"][/post]​




How?? I've pulled and twisted and frigged if I can get it apart. 

I just replace the tap about every 5th or so brew, or when there is visible gunk.


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## sosman (27/8/05)

Bazza said:


> ozbrewer said:
> 
> 
> > the standard taps come apart pretty easy to
> ...


It requires a hammer and something that will fit neatly inside the tap.


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## Sean (27/8/05)

Bazza said:


> ozbrewer said:
> 
> 
> > the standard taps come apart pretty easy to
> ...


Stick one end in a vice and pull really hard - they do come apart, though I wouldn't say easily.


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## Fingerlickin_B (28/8/05)

I'm too slack to read all five pages, but I've never had an infected brew (infected ruled as sour or foul tasting...as stated before I'm sure every brew has something in it that really shouldn't be there). 

Flame me like mad if you will, but I clean with hot water, then use Sodium Metabisulphate with cold water, leave it while I go have a smoke and then rinse with hot tap water...used to rinse with cold water, but hot seems to flush it out more quickly (and it's much more comfortable on the hands in winter)  

Point of note 1: I pay more attention to my fermenter taps than anything else when cleaning  

Point of note 2: Sodium Met does release Sulphur Dioxide when mixed with water...this lifts skin quite a bit...probably not the best idea for anyone suffering from botulism or leprosy  

PZ.


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## NRB (19/10/06)

jgriffin, did you ever solve this problem? I'm experienceing something almost exactly the same.

I'll be moving soon and hopefully this will help.


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## browndog (19/10/06)

Never had an infection guys and I have only ever used sodium met and boiling water for sterilising fermenters and bits in two years of brewing. I brew under my highset QLDer with a dirt floor and a constant threat of windblown dust\dirt.

cheers

Browndog


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## Ross (19/10/06)

NRB said:


> jgriffin, did you ever solve this problem? I'm experienceing something almost exactly the same.
> 
> I'll be moving soon and hopefully this will help.




NRB, I had problems with air born infections on windy days, as using an immersion chiller & haven't got it covered well enough in the kettle. Now on windy days I chill the wort to approx 65C & transfer to fermenter & chill overnight in fridge before pitching. This is hot enough to knock the airbourne contaminants out & I've not lost a brew since.

cheers Ross


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## colinw (20/10/06)

I've not had a problem since getting rid of our Custard Apple tree. Before that, I used to get a low level of pellicle forming Brett infections which didn't have a huge effect on flavour but were unsightly.

First brew in the new house is underway. Hopefully there won't be any problems.


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## chimera (20/10/06)

And notice how its always the good batches you pull out all the stops that get infected first!


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