# Hefe Weizen Mash Schedule



## Julez (26/3/08)

G'day, 

after having only done single infusion mashes to date, I'm looking at doing a stepped infusion for a hefe weizen. Something like this (with 3:1 water:grist ratio):

Dough-in @ 37 degrees / 20 mins
Protein rest @ 50 degrees / 30 mins
Sacc rest @ 67 degrees?? / 45 mins??
Mash out @ 78 degrees / 10 mins

This may be too ambitious. I may skip the dough-in and just start things off at the protein rest temp. 

Anyway, the question is, what do you think is a suitable saccarification rest temp for this beer and for how long? Will be 60% wheat, 35% pils and 5% light cara of some description. 

Cheers! :beer:


----------



## Zwickel (26/3/08)

Julez,

my mash regime:

dough in at 35C and immediately go to 42C
rest at 42C for 20min (ferulic acid rest)
go to 52C and rest for 20min (optional, depends on the protein content of the malt) protein rest
go to 63C for 30 min, (beta amylase)
go to 72C for 30 min, (alpha amylase)
heatup to 78C and mash out.

Im using 70% wheat malt and 30% pilsener malt.

Cheers


----------



## kook (26/3/08)

If you must do a step mash, I'd stick with something more along the lines of what Zwickel has suggested.

Personally I'd dough in at 42, raise to 62, raise to 70 then sparge. I don't have a direct fired mash tun though so heating for me is by water additions or decoction. If you have a direct fired tun then 42-62-70-78 would be a good option. I don't think that a protein rest is necessary if you're using good quality malts.


----------



## Weizguy (26/3/08)

The Schneider-style weizen I make uses two rests, 20 min @ 50C and 60 min @ 65C, and it comes out great. You could ask the judges at the Bitter and Twisted festival last year. Good body and head...great flavour too, very authentic.

The other beer I make with more rests is the sauer Berliner. It uses rests at 35C for an extended period (overnight if you want), and 30 min @ 50C, then 60 min @ 65C, and finally mash out @ 77C.

Les out


----------



## Julez (26/3/08)

kook said:


> If you must do a step mash, I'd stick with something more along the lines of what Zwickel has suggested.
> 
> Personally I'd dough in at 42, raise to 62, raise to 70 then sparge. I don't have a direct fired mash tun though so heating for me is by water additions or decoction. If you have a direct fired tun then 42-62-70-78 would be a good option. I don't think that a protein rest is necessary if you're using good quality malts.




Thanks guys. 

With regards to the protein rest, I'm using 60% Weyermann pale wheat malt. From what I have read, due to the higher molecular weight proteins in wheat malt, the protein rest is still a good idea. But I'm not sure how well modified this particular malt is. Maybe a question for Ross....

Cheers


----------



## Julez (26/3/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> The Schneider-style weizen I make uses two rests, 20 min @ 50C and 60 min @ 65C, and it comes out great. You could ask the judges at the Bitter and Twisted festival last year. Good body and head...great flavour too, very authentic.
> 
> The other beer I make with more rests is the sauer Berliner. It uses rests at 35C for an extended period (overnight if you want), and 30 min @ 50C, then 60 min @ 65C, and finally mash out @ 77C.
> 
> Les out



Sounds good Les, I can just about taste it :icon_drool2: 

What yeast do you use? 

Julez.


----------



## kook (26/3/08)

Weyermann have a 10 minute rest on their house brewed Weissebier:

http://www.weyermann.de/usa/hr.asp?go=deta...&sprache=10


----------



## hughman666 (27/3/08)

kook said:


> I don't have a direct fired mash tun though so heating for me is by water additions or decoction.



hey kook, what is your schedule for doing a step mash with water additions? how much boiling water do you add at each interval and for how long do you let each step rest?

i'm just trying to figure out how to achieve this without ending up with too big an initial volume? i'm batch sparging so getting 2 x equal run-offs is pretty key, i'm not sure if this is a viable option for me, but would like to give it a shot.

my volumes look like this for a single-infusion of 5kg of grain:

15L (3:1) dough in & sacc rest @65c for 60 mins
first water addition is 8L of 100c to get up to 76c (mash out) rest for 10 mins
first run-off is ~18L
second water addition is 18L @80c to get up to 78c for 2nd run-off. rest for 10 mins
second run-off is ~18L

any ideas?


----------



## kook (27/3/08)

I dough in thick initially (1.8:1), then the rest of the additions are worked out in the software I use.

As an example (5kg):



> Dough in the following fermentable ingredients.
> 
> 5.000 kg of Australian Traditional Ale Malt
> 
> ...


----------



## ausdb (27/3/08)

kook said:


> Weyermann have a 10 minute rest on their house brewed Weissebier:
> http://www.weyermann.de/usa/hr.asp?go=deta...&sprache=10


I have used that schedule with good results in the past.

Also Promash makes short work of doing the boiling water infusion calcs and whilst potentially unsafe  dumping the charge of water in in one hit works better than trickling it in out of the hlt.


----------



## blackbock (27/3/08)

Julez whatever you choose in the end, I think we would all agree here that 20 mins @ 37C is a waste of time. Most people that use mash-in steps pretty much start heating straight away, as there is no benefit to resting for 20 mins.


----------



## damoncouper (27/3/08)

I have been using the schedule Zwickel suggested roughly for some time and it has been a winner. I have not experimented though.


----------



## geoffi (27/3/08)

Best one I've tasted in ages by far was a simple drop infusion at 67c.


----------



## chovain (27/3/08)

Julez said:


> G'day,
> 
> after having only done single infusion mashes to date, I'm looking at doing a stepped infusion for a hefe weizen. Something like this (with 3:1 water:grist ratio):
> 
> ...



A protein rest is a good idea in a weizen. It's obviously going to aid conversion, but will also help your yeasties bring out the clove-like flavours, and really improve your ester/phenol balance. I'm not a fan of wheatbeers that just taste like banana flavouring.

To keep things simple, I'd go for an infusion schedule of 45 for 30, 65 for 45-60, 78 for 10. I'd definitely do the saccrification lower than 67. 65 will give you a drier beer. A wheat beer with too much body can be a bit like drinking banana flavoured milk 

You were asking about Warner's book the other day. This is a part of his book that is great to aspire to, but you don't want to do a two and a half hour mash only to find out that your beer is crap because you messed up something minor. Start simple, and then work towards something like his double decoction, or his second single decoction mash over time.

For the record, Warner suggests doughing in at 37, but not resting. From memory, the point is to slowly bring the temperature up to the protein rest, giving everything time to dissolve, and time to work throughout the 37-50 range. It's easier to increase the temperature by a degree a minute, than to do short rests at 37, 41, 43, 45, 48, 50 (I'm making these numbers up , but you get the drift). Picking a number like 45, and resting a bit longer is a really good approximation.


----------



## Julez (27/3/08)

Mark Chovain said:


> To keep things simple, I'd go for an infusion schedule of 45 for 30, 65 for 45-60, 78 for 10. I'd definitely do the saccrification lower than 67. 65 will give you a drier beer. A wheat beer with too much body can be a bit like drinking banana flavoured milk
> 
> .....
> 
> For the record, Warner suggests doughing in at 37, but not resting. From memory, the point is to slowly bring the temperature up to the protein rest, giving everything time to dissolve, and time to work throughout the 37-50 range. It's easier to increase the temperature by a degree a minute, than to do short rests at 37, 41, 43, 45, 48, 50 (I'm making these numbers up  , but you get the drift). Picking a number like 45, and resting a bit longer is a really good approximation.



Mark, this is exactly the kind of info I was after. I did wonder about the sacc temp especially because of the resulting body and sweetness of the beer. 65 sounds good, based on your response (I don't want banana milk either  ).

Thanks also for explaining the dough-in side of things. Given I don't have a direct-fired mash tun either, I do want to be able to do managable infusions and not over-complicate. 

I want to do as few infusions as possible, but still incorporate a protein rest, a decent temp sacc rest and mash out. 

Cheers for all the comments everyone :icon_cheers:


----------



## Weizguy (27/3/08)

Julez said:


> Sounds good Les, I can just about taste it :icon_drool2:
> 
> What yeast do you use?
> 
> Julez.


For the Schneider, I use the W3638 (Bavarian Wheat) yeast and for the Sour Berliner, I use a lacto culture or sour mash and W1007 (German Ale).

Both come out well and have been well-appreciated by all who have tasted them. :chug: 

Beerz
Les


----------



## kook (27/3/08)

Mark Chovain said:


> A protein rest is a good idea in a weizen. It's obviously going to aid conversion, but will also help your yeasties bring out the clove-like flavours, and really improve your ester/phenol balance. I'm not a fan of wheatbeers that just taste like banana flavouring.



I thought the ferulic acid (42-45) rest promoted the production of 4-vinyl guaiacol precurors, not a protein (50-55) rest?

Isoamyl acetate (banana ester) production is more dependent on the way you use your yeast though isn't it? Underpitching, stressing and higher temps supposedly increase the production.


----------



## chovain (27/3/08)

kook said:


> I thought the ferulic acid (42-45) rest promoted the production of 4-vinyl guaiacol precurors, not a protein (50-55) rest?


That's right, but I've combined the two into a single rest in my suggested schedule. My bad on the terminology, but you don't need to hit 50 for the protein rest. Half an hour at 45 will do fine. (Palmer reckons peptidase and protease are both active between 45-55C). 



kook said:


> Isoamyl acetate (banana ester) production is more dependent on the way you use your yeast though isn't it? Underpitching, stressing and higher temps supposedly increase the production.



Yep, but it's a balance thing. I like lots of esters in my weizens, but it needs to be balanced by the phenols, or it tastes artificial and "chemically".


----------

