# Malt Cider = Graff



## Verbyla (7/11/09)

I've been searching through various forums trying to find something a little more interesting than the standard cider. I've made a few really enjoyable ciders made from juice, yeast and the optional cinnamon, nutmeg and cloves but want to get a little more creative. I've found a few really popular recipies for Graffs, one which has had almost 3000L made by other forum members and has had endless praise. 

Here they are:
*
Brandon O's Graff* (The most popular)
18L Apple Juice (No preservatives and no added sugar)
445g Crystal Malt 120EBC
30g Torrefied Wheat
1kg Amber Malt Extract
1kg Light Malt Extract
14g of your favpourite hops ≤6%AA-30 minute boil
Yeast= US-05

*Woodchuck Clone*
18L Apple Juice (No Preservatives and No Added Sugar)
450g Crystal 10L
450g German Pilsner
230g Chocolate Malt
60g Torrefied Wheat
Yeast=Safbrew WB-06 (Any Wheat Yeast)

The above recipies require the grain to be put into a mini mash with the following instructions
Steep(Soak) Grain for 30 minutes @ 65C in 3.75L of water
Sparge Grains with 1.25L of water @ 75C
Add hops and malt extract when boiling starts and boil for 30 minutes (Brandon O's Graff only)

I haven't tried these yet but am planning on starting them in a couple of weeks. Best part about these Graffs is that they are drinkable within a few weeks of bottling!

Just one question. I just received the crushed grain i bough from grapes and grain and was wonder whats the best method for storage?

I put down a ginger and apple cider about a week ago after loving the taste of ginger and apple softdrink

Morgans ginger beer kit
16L Apple Juice
1kg LDME
500g Ginger Honey(found it at a farmers market and thought i'd give it a shot
2 Quills of Cinnamon
Safale S-04
Makes 22L

I'll let you know how things turn out


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## Wisey (8/11/09)

different..... thats for sure

im keen to hear how things work out


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## msheridan69 (8/11/09)

Hi Verbyla - my mouth is watering just thinking about the combination of apple and ginger mmmmm... I use honey in my Somerset Gold recipe and it adds to the character (and ABV) - it's a subtle flavour but it there for sure. 

I put together a YouTube instructional on brewing Brandon Os Graff - if anyone is interested there's a link in my signature.

I think I might give the Woodchuck clone a try too - I have some spare grains around.

Stay cool :beer:


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## Verbyla (8/11/09)

Yeah your youtube video was what pushed me in the right direction! It was really well done by the way. I didn't even know what a mini mash was until i saw it and now my next 5 upcoming recipies are all extract brewing! 

I wanted to give the somerset gold recipe a try aswell but could find any time for it in this years busy secedule  

I sampled the apple and ginger cider/beer (not sure what to label it as yet) just the other day and it tastes awesome atm. It'll be interesting to see how it goes after it ferments out. I don't think it'll get to dry as i'm sure the morgans kit that i used would have sweeteners in it.


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## bullsneck (8/11/09)

What is the batch size of the above recipe of Graff?

I've recently acquired a 9L corny, and I'd be interested in doing a half batch.

Thanks!


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## msheridan69 (8/11/09)

Verbyla said:


> Yeah your youtube video was what pushed me in the right direction! It was really well done by the way. I didn't even know what a mini mash was until i saw it and now my next 5 upcoming recipies are all extract brewing!



Cool - I've had quite a few emails from guys saying the same thing. Glad to know I didn't waste my time.

I went out to my LHBS yesterday and bought in enough new ingredients for my next 4 recipies - each recipe uses a different brewing method so I'm thinking I'll get the camera out again LOL

I've subscribed to this thread so I'll be looking forward to your verdict on the apple/ginger beer - Brandon O might be up for some competition


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## Verbyla (8/11/09)

bullsneck said:


> What is the batch size of the above recipe of Graff?
> 
> I've recently acquired a 9L corny, and I'd be interested in doing a half batch.
> 
> Thanks!



Both Brandon O's Graff and the Woodchuck Clone come to a total of 23L. Its 18L of apple juice and 5L for the mini mash



msheridan69 said:


> I've subscribed to this thread so I'll be looking forward to your verdict on the apple/ginger beer - Brandon O might be up for some competition



Jumping the gun a bit there but i guess you've gotta aim for something


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## msheridan69 (8/11/09)

Just drank a long neck of Graff - it's only a week in the bottle so it's not carbed too well and I can taste how young it is, BUT I'M ADDICTED!!!! :super:


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## Verbyla (30/11/09)

Just an update.

Tried the ginger apple cider, it tasted awsome until the apple sugars dried out and was left with a weird sweetness that i'm sure was in the ginger beer kit i used. It also got an infection...... probably because i run out of sodium met and was left to just clean it with non rinse sanitiser. Anyways if i try it again i'll use raw ingredients to get the flavours and not a kit.

Also, just put down both of the graffs listed above and they lived up to all expectations. The balance of malt and apple was perfect! Can't wait to try it when it's done!

For anyone who hasn't tried it, give it a go. I've heard so many good things about it on other forums and from what i've just tasted it had the "missing flavour factor" that simple ciders lack in my opinion.

Anyone else tried any of these? What did you think?


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## Wisey (8/12/09)

Ginger beer kits have a weird sweetness about them......

But you'll find with raw components you'll dry it right out (which im learning) and it'll taste like a cheap wine


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## Guysmiley54 (1/11/12)

I've been thinking about cider lately....

I like my cider on the drier side but pure apple juice finishes way too dry without any trickery! I know it's not a new thought but I'm considering 500gm of medium crystal to bring some nice caramel/toffee flavours to add some residual sweetness and balance it all out. I suppose I'm hoping to conjure a hint of toffee apple....

The recipe for Graff also includes DME and hops but I'm thinking just apple juice, sugar (maybe a mix of white and brown) and crystal, fermented with a cider yeast (I have a packet of Craft Brewer dry Cider Yeast in the fridge) I like a hard cider so I'll aim somewhere around 8% or more.

Has anyone got any tips or feedback? 

Cheers B)


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## nathan_madness (1/11/12)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I've been thinking about cider lately....
> 
> I like my cider on the drier side but pure apple juice finishes way too dry without any trickery! I know it's not a new thought but I'm considering 500gm of medium crystal to bring some nice caramel/toffee flavours to add some residual sweetness and balance it all out. I suppose I'm hoping to conjure a hint of toffee apple....
> 
> ...




If you just want it a little sweeter use 50/50 apple and pear.

I did a cider last year with DME in it and it tasted like poison.


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## Guysmiley54 (1/11/12)

nathan_madness said:


> If you just want it a little sweeter use 50/50 apple and pear.
> 
> I did a cider last year with DME in it and it tasted like poison.



Poison? Yuck :icon_vomit: 

Pear is nice in a cider, that's a good suggestion. I am planning on adding sugar to raise the gravity, that tends to thin it out quite considerably as well though. You know those deep toffees you get from a medium (120+) crystal? Surely that sweet toffee would pair well with an apple/pear cider? I'm not really keen on an apple beer or a malty hoppy cider.

I'm not a fan of DME in any case... Anyone tried it with just crystal?


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## nathan_madness (1/11/12)

Guysmiley54 said:


> Poison? Yuck :icon_vomit:
> 
> Pear is nice in a cider, that's a good suggestion. I am planning on adding sugar to raise the gravity, that tends to thin it out quite considerably as well though. You know those deep toffees you get from a medium (120+) crystal? Surely that sweet toffee would pair well with an apple/pear cider? I'm not really keen on an apple beer or a malty hoppy cider.
> 
> I'm not a fan of DME in any case... Anyone tried it with just crystal?




Simplest way if you want toffee/caramel flavor cook your sugar that you are going to bump it up with till it is like toffee then add it. 

Don't try dark brown or rich dark brown sugar they tasted worse than the DME.


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## Guysmiley54 (1/11/12)

nathan_madness said:


> Simplest way if you want toffee/caramel flavor cook your sugar that you are going to bump it up with till it is like toffee then add it.
> 
> Don't try dark brown or rich dark brown sugar they tasted worse than the DME.



Have you tried caramelized sugar in a ferment? One of the reasons I like the idea of Crystal is because it would add dextrine and raise the FG of the cider. I'm not certain that there would be any effect on FG with caramelized sugar.

Although I'm may sound a little argumentative, I appreciate the feedback. Looking at your sig, I can see you have tonnes of ciders under your belt!! It's proabably time to STFU and take some advice  

Thanks for the input :beer:


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## nathan_madness (1/11/12)

Guysmiley54 said:


> Have you tried caramelized sugar in a ferment? One of the reasons I like the idea of Crystal is because it would add dextrine and raise the FG of the cider. I'm not certain that there would be any effect on FG with caramelized sugar.
> 
> Although I'm may sound a little argumentative, I appreciate the feedback. Looking at your sig, I can see you have tonnes of ciders under your belt!! It's proabably time to STFU and take some advice
> 
> Thanks for the input :beer:




No it won't add any to the FG but if you want that flavor try it with the apple and pear and you might be on the money.

I have and it added a toffee flavor to the taste. I also have tried caramelising some of the juice as well that was a pain but turned out good too.

I have not used the CB cider yeast I swear by SN9 it's great stuff.

I have done heaps of tests with different yeasts, sugars, temps and juices. The best t sugars are white sugar for a winey finish or dextrose which adds nothing to the end product. Yeast of course is SN9 at 17deg. Juice apple and pear Berri brand.

I use apple and pear for my cider base then add different flavors (fresh fruit, other juice, cordial, essences etc.) into the secondary or keg to make pretty much any flavor you like.


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## Mardoo (2/11/12)

nathan_madness said:


> I have and it added a toffee flavor to the taste. I also have tried caramelising some of the juice as well that was a pain but turned out good too.



The caramelized apple juice is pretty awesome in my experience. If you go that route, when you are caramelizing it watch it like a hawk after about 2/3 of the juice is boiled off. Once it gets down to being a bit syrupy the line between deliciously tart caramelly flavor and bitter or burned crappy mess is about 15 seconds.


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## Guysmiley54 (2/11/12)

Mardoo said:


> The caramelized apple juice is pretty awesome in my experience. If you go that route, when you are caramelizing it watch it like a hawk after about 2/3 of the juice is boiled off. Once it gets down to being a bit syrupy the line between deliciously tart caramelly flavor and bitter or burned crappy mess is about 15 seconds.



I've never heard of that technique before! Does heating the pectin make the cider cloudy?


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## nathan_madness (2/11/12)

Guysmiley54 said:


> I've never heard of that technique before! Does heating the pectin make the cider cloudy?




I did not experience any cloudines. 

I always leave it in the primary for 4 weeks till it is totally clear if i'm not adding any flavoring in the secondary that is. If flavoring the secondary 2 weeks primary 4 weeks secondary will do the trick and will be totally clear using SN9.


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## evildrakey (2/11/12)

If you're looking for toffee flavours in a cider...

I took about 4KG of honey, boiled it down to a deep dark toffee, and then added 18L of apple juice... It's like a cider with some very yummy toffee/candy apple/toasted marshmallow flavours. There's a recipe for it in Le Menagier de Paris, a 15th century cookbook.


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## Guysmiley54 (2/11/12)

evildrakey said:


> If you're looking for toffee flavours in a cider...
> 
> I took about 4KG of honey, boiled it down to a deep dark toffee, and then added 18L of apple juice... It's like a cider with some very yummy toffee/candy apple/toasted marshmallow flavours. There's a recipe for it in Le Menagier de Paris, a 15th century cookbook.



Now that sounds like a wild recipe there!! 11% alcohol or thereabouts? :beerbang: 

Do you have a recipe perchance?


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