# Clear Candy Syrup Vs Destrose?



## Gulpa (8/9/09)

Hi all,

Im looking at a Belgian recipe that specifies clear candy syrup. Now I understand belgian candy sugar is used for its caramelised flavours and colour. I assume the clear candy syrup has not been caramelised (therefore clear). 

Is there an advantage to using this or should I just used Dextrose or even cane sugar? Has anyone used the clear candy that could help me understand if there are any flavour or other benefits? Cost difference between the two is significant for the recipe Im looking at.

Thanks
Andrew.


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## brettprevans (8/9/09)

dex and candy sugar/syrup arnt the same thing. and candy sugar has been inverted. they wont give you the same flavours. dex adds alc, no flavour and thins out a beer. 

skip the dex and use candy syrup


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## Jez (8/9/09)

you can make your own candy syrup if its a cost issue:

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...ers/candy.shtml

I've done it following this method and can confirm its not particularly difficult and turns out great.

Jez


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## Gulpa (8/9/09)

Jez said:


> you can make your own candy syrup if its a cost issue:
> 
> http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...ers/candy.shtml
> 
> ...



Thanks Jez. I might give this a try. I could afford to screw up a few batches and still be in front.

Cheers
Andrew.


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## Nick JD (8/9/09)

Gulpa said:


> Thanks Jez.



+1. 

Where does a chap buy citric acid? Can I use lemon juice? Or any acid?

EDIT: Oops, I need to learn to read the whole article before asking questions. Will check local Coles...

One more question though:

Can anyone tell me the fermentability of a darkish candy sugar? Must be a lot less than dextrose.


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## buttersd70 (8/9/09)

decent hbs will have citric....it's also available in most supermarkets in the spice section.


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## brettprevans (8/9/09)

dark or light should be the same. and its still highly fermentable.


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## Dazza_devil (8/9/09)

I'm thinking of adding some candy sugar to my next brew while it is at high krausen.
What quantity as compared to dextrose would I use?
Would it be best/possible to dissolve the candy, then boil to sanitise before adding or just chuck it in?


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## Rod (8/9/09)

Belgian candy is easy to make and makes a significant difference to the brew

It gives a toffee like taste 

( which is really what it is , the old toffees your mum used to make , stick jaws )

the darker the colour the more the toffee taste 

some people run it hot onto baking paper , but it sticks and is hard to get off

it can be hard to dissolve and I find it better to add the candy to a cup or two of water and bring to the boil and then add to the brew

I make it up on demand , ie only make enough for the brew , and when it reaches the desired colour add some water before it cools down , be careful it will froth up and spit , ie have an oversized pot


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## manticle (8/9/09)

I make my own according to the above linked process (roughly). The acid can be anything - I used vinegar once (a tiny dash in a kilo or so of sugar and litre or so of water) which gave a nice touch to the end result. Clear syrup won't add much in the way of flavour or colour as you originally surmised but you can still make your own clear version and it will cost you<$2 + a bit of time.

As for dex vs invert/candy sugar - dextrose is pure glucose whereas invert sugar is sucrose which has been split into its respective glucose and fructose molecules. My understanding is that this action stresses the yeast and leads to potentially bad flavours so if you kindly organise the process before the yeast have to deal with it, they are very thankful.

@cm2: I'm fairly certain that both invert sugar and dextrose have a similar fermentability and therefore a similar effect on alc and thin/dryness (which is why it's often used in Belgians). Only darker, more toffee type inverts will have much of an effect on flavour (and subtle even then but well worth it). 

That said there's no way I'd substitute dex for candy sugar and there's no way I'd spend exorbitant amounts on some else's product either.


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## egolds77 (8/9/09)

With regards as to if Candi sugar is worth it and noticable in contribution to flavour, after reading 'Brew like a Monk' by Stan hieronymus, I'd say no when you are adding clear candi, just substitute it with normal cane sugar just as long as you keep the percentage no more than around 16%. I added 1kg of cane sugar to a Westmalle Triple clone recipe and there are no hints of cider like characteristics.

Buy yourself a candy thermometer and make your own Candi syrup(better than rock) if you really want to as it's pretty easy. You can't substitute Dark Candi Syrup/Rock for flavour profile so this would be a good reason to make your own as it's so bloody expensive to buy.


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## neonmeate (8/9/09)

i agree with elton
been using plain old white sugar for years no worries. the cider stuff is an urban myth propagated by K&K brewers whose brews taste like ciders for OTHER reasons.

OTOH if you're talking dark candi, that's another story... i havent bothered to make my own toffee but the belgian candi syrup you can get from the sponsor above is well worth the $ IMO - delicious


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## manticle (8/9/09)

Must admit, I'm dubious about the idea that reasonable proportions of plain sugar in a properly fermented brew will make it taste anything like cider. When I make candi sugar it's usually dark and provides a toffee chracteristic. I have no other reason to use any type of sugar in my brew most days but it's not to do with fear of apples.


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## Gulpa (8/9/09)

Interesting posts guys. Thanks.

I will have a go at making my own clear candy. Im not convinced that I really need to but nothing to lose, right. I havent decided on the whole invert sugar argument yet. There was an article on here a while ago that argued that the actual amount of invert sugar that is produced by boiling with an acid is tiny and arguably not worth the effort. Maybe I need to make 2 batches and compare the results.

Cheers
Andrew.


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## gap (8/9/09)

neonmeate said:


> i agree with elton
> been using plain old white sugar for years no worries. the cider stuff is an urban myth propagated by K&K brewers whose brews taste like ciders for OTHER reasons.
> 
> OTOH if you're talking dark candi, that's another story... i havent bothered to make my own toffee but the belgian candi syrup you can get from the sponsor above is well worth the $ IMO - delicious



I agrre with this. Especially the REAL Belgian Candi Syrup. It smells and tastes and produces a result in your beer far superior to home made candi sugar.

As an aside I am drinking a bottle of Westvleteren Trappist No12 at the moment and it is magnificent. 

Regards

Graeme


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## hoohaaman (8/9/09)

gap said:


> I agrre with this. Especially the REAL Belgian Candi Syrup. It smells and tastes and produces a result in your beer far superior to home made candi sugar.
> 
> As an aside I am drinking a bottle of Westvleteren Trappist No12 at the moment and it is magnificent.
> 
> ...



I'm jealous,you lucky lucky bastard :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (8/9/09)

gap said:


> I agrre with this. Especially the REAL Belgian Candi Syrup. It smells and tastes and produces a result in your beer far superior to home made candi sugar.



Any idea what the actual difference is (process wise)? I have had great results with homemade but if it's THAT different/superior I may need to give it a go at least once.


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## gap (8/9/09)

manticle said:


> Any idea what the actual difference is (process wise)? I have had great results with homemade but if it's THAT different/superior I may need to give it a go at least once.



You need to buy some and you will see. I have used the dark Candi Syrup and it has a faer greater depth od flavout than you will ever get with the homemade stuff. 

i bought mine from More Brew in the USA as it was not readily available here.

I believe it is now distributed in Australai by Cryer Malt so your Homebrew Store should be able to get it.
Craftbrewer also stocks it.

Check this website for details http://www.darkcandi.com/

Regards

Graeme

Edit : added website


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## manticle (8/9/09)

I'd be interested in buying some and comparing it directly to my own stuff. Following individual tastings it would be worth doing a split batch - one with each sugar- and see/tasting thre difference. I'm very interested in the process if it differs massively from the sugar boiling method.

Found this interesting link: http://odeo.com/episodes/24547883-05-07-09...c-Brewing-Radio - around 5 minutes in.


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## Nick JD (9/9/09)

manticle said:


> I'd be interested in buying some and comparing it directly to my own stuff. Following individual tastings it would be worth doing a split batch - one with each sugar- and see/tasting thre difference. I'm very interested in the process if it differs massively from the sugar boiling method.
> 
> Found this interesting link: http://odeo.com/episodes/24547883-05-07-09...c-Brewing-Radio - around 5 minutes in.



Thanks for that link.

Di-ammonium phosphate, eh? Hmmmmm. 

I used to use malt vinegar for my toffee when I was a kid.


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## brettprevans (9/9/09)

Nick JD said:


> Di-ammonium phosphate, eh? Hmmmmm.


you use DAP in making mead also


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## Nick JD (9/9/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> you use DAP in making mead also



Who sells it? It seems hard to find. 

I have some phospheric acid, but it sounds like the ammonia reacts in the sugar to create tasty byproducts of caramalization, which makes it better.


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## crozdog (9/9/09)

one explanation for the difference could be that Belgian candi sugar is made from sugar beets not sugar cane. i dunno if beets produce any compounds other than sucrose or ratio of compounds compared to cane that would impact the taste.

As far as the invert goes, I've made some successful belgians by simply using white sugar poured into the boil. i reckon there is no issue with this as candi sugar production sees sugar boiled with an acid. Isn't our boiling wort acidic? Therefore if i simply chuck white sugar into my boiling wort the sugar will get inverted in my kettle meaning I don't need to make candi seperately on the stove :super: - unless I want dark candy or to make the kids stick-jaws :lol: 

DAP can usually be found in wine making suppliers eg 
http://www.wmss.com.au/products/yeast-mlf-...hate-d.a.p.html
http://www.winequip.com.au/wine-additives/ 
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/index.php?cPath=280_294_299

Anyone in Sydney interested in splitting a kilo?


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## manticle (9/9/09)

Nick JD said:


> Who sells it? It seems hard to find.
> 
> I have some phospheric acid, but it sounds like the ammonia reacts in the sugar to create tasty byproducts of caramalization, which makes it better.



Di ammonium phosphate is used as a yeast nutrient in wine making so a decent homebrew/winemaking place should stock it. I've used it as a nutrient in ciders before - bought it from cellar plus in Victoria (North Melbourne) but I guess you could order it from a wine-making supply shop.


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## manticle (9/9/09)

crozdog said:


> one explanation for the difference could be that Belgian candi sugar is made from sugar beets not sugar cane. i dunno if beets produce any compounds other than sucrose or ratio of compounds compared to cane that would impact the taste.
> 
> As far as the invert goes, I've made some successful belgians by simply using white sugar poured into the boil. i reckon there is no issue with this as candi sugar production sees sugar boiled with an acid. Isn't our boiling wort acidic? Therefore if i simply chuck white sugar into my boiling wort the sugar will get inverted in my kettle meaning I don't need to make candi seperately on the stove :super: - unless I want dark candy or to make the kids stick-jaws :lol:



The only issue I can see with this is that cane sugar is often added after high krausen in Belgians to rouse the yeast and increase attenuation. Too early can (supposedly) lead to the yeast munching all the simple sugars then falling asleep before finishing of the nutritious maltose.

However if it works for you etc etc.


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## gap (9/9/09)

manticle said:


> The only issue I can see with this is that cane sugar is often added after high krausen in Belgians to rouse the yeast and increase attenuation. Too early can (supposedly) lead to the yeast munching all the simple sugars then falling asleep before finishing of the nutritious maltose.
> 
> However if it works for you etc etc.




I have read most of the bokks on brewing Belgian Beers , Brew Like a Monk etc and cannot remember any reference to adding sugar post boil.
The Belgian yeasts are used to high Gravity worts . I would like some references to back the theory that you must not add your sugar to the boil
because of the reasons you have stated.
I am happy to be proven wrong. It adds to ones education. I just dislike statements such as this one being repeated without solid evidence to back it up.

I am not having a go at you, manticle, or anybody else. I would just like some scientific backup to the statement.

I have used 3787 in high gravity Belgian Ales adding sugar or candi syrup to the boiler to the boiler, without having any trouble with the yeast.

Regards


Graeme


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## manticle (9/9/09)

Well my 2 qualifiers were 'supposedly' and 'if it works for you'. I have no major scientific reports - the only reference I really have comes from wyeast suggestions/instructions re: 3787 and a Jamil podcast I'd have to search for.

I have added candy sugar at the beginning of a wort and ended up with overly sweet cloying syrup and added through the ferment and ended up with balanced, dryness and maltiness but there were so many other varying factors between both brews that I couldn't swear to anything.

I'll see if I can hunt something up but my above statement was not phrased as a definitive "I know everything" dogma to be taken as undebatable fact and shouldn't be taken as such. Perhaps I should have said 'potential issue'.


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## manticle (9/9/09)

This link is also interesting re: beet vs cane.

Obviously it's nothing definitive or empirical - just one guy's internet notions but something to think about nonetheless.

http://www.fermentarium.com/content/view/238/58/


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