# Best way to improve. BIAB.No chill.



## Nick667 (5/12/15)

I have been AG brewing for a couple of years now with mixed results using boil in a bag, not chilling and using dry yeasts ( US-05 ect ). Got temp control. I don't use a cube and cover the boil pot with a x of plastic wrap, the lid and a couple of litres of water in a jug. Seems to work quite well. Next day I use a sanitized jug too transfer ( including trub ) to FV. Re-hydrate yeast and have never had a problem with fermentation. Also have good mash temp control. Bottle with sugar. Good sanitisation.
But I got back into home brewing to make a better product and I really want to up the game a bit if poss.
Can anyone give me some advice on a couple of things;
Is it worth getting the wort off the trub and will this make a lot of difference using a syphon or tap.
Will a wort chiller be worth the investment. I know it will make hop additions more accurate.
Or any other way that will improve my beer.
Thanks for any advice.


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## manticle (5/12/15)

Before you go about introducing new methods and new equipment, identify which aspects of your beer you want to improve.


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## contrarian (5/12/15)

That advice is spot on. What changes might help will depend on what elements of your beer you want to improve and what your current processes are. 

What is it about your beer that you aren't happy with at the moment?


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

I would first refine your methods, then work out what needs to be changed


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## S.E (5/12/15)

[SIZE=11pt]I would first work out what needs to be changed, and then refine your methods.[/SIZE]


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## Black Devil Dog (5/12/15)

I would change your methods.


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## wobbly (5/12/15)

Nick667 said:


> Can anyone give me some advice on a couple of things;
> Is it worth getting the wort off the trub and will this make a lot of difference using a syphon or tap.
> Will a wort chiller be worth the investment. I know it will make hop additions more accurate.


The original poster asked for comment/advise on a couple of specific points as above that those that have commented so far have either not read/understood what was being asked or chosen to ignore those questions

Being a single vessel brewer (Braumeister) I'm in the camp that believes you get improvement by getting the wort off the trub/hot break and chilling the wort to below 30C as fast as I can

Wobbly


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## S.E (5/12/15)

We were just giving our thoughts and opinions. We knew someone would come along with a sensible answer to the actual questions sooner or later.


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/12/15)

You should think about refining your changed methods


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## manticle (5/12/15)

wobbly said:


> The original poster asked for comment/advise on a couple of specific points as above that those that have commented so far have either not read/understood what was being asked or chosen to ignore those questions
> 
> Being a single vessel brewer (Braumeister) I'm in the camp that believes you get improvement by getting the wort off the trub/hot break and chilling the wort to below 30C as fast as I can
> 
> Wobbly


No. I read and understood the questions and I'm pretty sure others did too.

Question remains - what faults is the OP finding and what are they seeking to improve?

Knowing that I might feel qualified to advise whether the issue relates to a night on hot break, hop additions or something else.


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## Bribie G (5/12/15)

I take it that Boil in the Bag was a slip of the keyboard. 
I would recommend getting the beer off the trub into a cube.
Without reigniting any chill vs no chill argument I no chill and have had competition success with beers that have had nothing to hide behind such as Pale Continental Lagers.


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## Coodgee (5/12/15)

Nick667 said:


> I have been AG brewing for a couple of years now with mixed results using boil in a bag, not chilling and using dry yeasts ( US-05 ect ). Got temp control. I don't use a cube and cover the boil pot with a x of plastic wrap, the lid and a couple of litres of water in a jug. Seems to work quite well. Next day I use a sanitized jug too transfer ( including trub ) to FV. Re-hydrate yeast and have never had a problem with fermentation. Also have good mash temp control. Bottle with sugar. Good sanitisation.
> But I got back into home brewing to make a better product and I really want to up the game a bit if poss.
> Can anyone give me some advice on a couple of things;
> Is it worth getting the wort off the trub and will this make a lot of difference using a syphon or tap.
> ...


maybe try using some liquid yeasts and see if you get an improvement. US05 is as good as any yeast when it comes to big hoppy IPAs and APAs but if you are brewing lagers or English beers it might make a difference. If you are into cosmetics then trying to get a crystal clear beer might be fun and you'll impress your mates. I'm drinking a Munich Helles right now brewed with WY2112 and treated with both gelatin and polyclar and it's as brilliantly clear as any commercial lager. and tastes better than any commercial examples I've tried lately too!


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## Bribie G (6/12/15)

Being in NZ your malts shouldn't be a problem as they are top notch. Similarly your hops.

What batch sizes do you brew? If you are prepared to spend on a chiller, which could run to a couple of hundred dollars depending on the model, you would probably benefit more from upgrading to a more controllable BIAB vessel, either an electric urn or a 60L pot with a tap. That way you can whirlpool if you like and easily get clear wort into the cube.

As posted above, a better match of yeasts could make a lot of difference.

Liquid yeasts are great but I've found your own Mangrove Jack's dried series to be really good as well, for example their UK Dark Ale in porters and brown ales, Burton Union in bitters and Bohemian Lager in lagers.


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## contrarian (6/12/15)

wobbly said:


> The original poster asked for comment/advise on a couple of specific points as above that those that have commented so far have either not read/understood what was being asked or chosen to ignore those questions
> 
> Being a single vessel brewer (Braumeister) I'm in the camp that believes you get improvement by getting the wort off the trub/hot break and chilling the wort to below 30C as fast as I can
> 
> Wobbly


I understood the questions but without knowing the problem there is no point suggesting solutions. Unless the problem is about late hop additions and flavour or aroma chill or no chill will make no difference at all. 

Same for chilling in the kettle overnight. There's obvious risks associated with it and it but without knowing what the desired outcome is there's no point suggesting it will give the desired result. 

Better beer is a very subjective concept!


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## Nick667 (6/12/15)

Hi guys and thanks so much for your help.
What aspects and methods would you improve?
How would you refine my system, I know it is a bit rough around the edges but I get reasonable beers sometimes.
I brew 24lts and add water during the boil to get full volume quantities. Have been playing around with gypsum and use Koppafloc to clear.
I have trouble to justify using liquid yeasts because of the $20 price tag.
Have tried Mangrove Jack yeasts and found them quite good but they seemed a bit temperature intolerant after bottling and the beer lacked carbonation.
Also c/o this forum I have been giving the wort a 10min protein rest @ 72deg. Now got lots of head sometimes too much.
I do get green apple off flavours at times.
I used to brew kit and kilo for consumption rather than perfection and went back to brewing for something better and I am getting better beer. But when I try a good craft beer at great expense My beer is still home brew in comparison.


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## manticle (6/12/15)

Green apple might be either incomplete fermentation or unhealthy yeast. Oxidation is a possibility too but I'd look at the first 2.

$20 is a lot for wyeast ($10 - 12 more usual here) but you can split, store and reuse to get maximum value. However the main advantage of liquid is simply the variety - well treated, healthy sufficient yeast should give good beer, whether dry or liquid.
BIAB no chill can and will make excellent quality beer although I'd recommend proper no chill as opposed to kettle standing.


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## TheWiggman (6/12/15)

Depending on your vessel, yes I would separate the trub. If you're no-chilling (I'm in that crowd) then, if you have a metal pot, install a ball valve at the base with a pickup tube running to the edge of the vessel. Add Brewbrite/Irish moss/whirlfloc/protofloc before flameout. Wait 10 mins, give it a good vortex with a spoon then wait 20-30 mins to settle. If you do it right you'll leave most of the rubbish in a cone at the bottom of the pot. If you don't want a tap, just do as above and use a siphon to the bottom edge similar to above. 
Regarding yeast, think about the cost at the end of the day. $20 is a bit ($13-odd in Aus) but you're making 23l. There is a much bigger range and you'd be blown away at the difference yeast can make to a batch. If you're looking to up the ante, seriously consider yeast management. Best investment I've made in beer is the stir plate, O2 and fermentation control. Also liquid yeasts can be split and reused so there can be more economical than dry yeast if you play your cards right. 
Speaking of which you say you have temp control. Are you talking about fermentation or brewing wort? If the former, getting acetaldehyde implies you might be fermenting too warm depending on your beer type. If the latter, get temp control for fermenting.


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## Nick667 (6/12/15)

> Green apple might be either incomplete fermentation or unhealthy yeast. Oxidation is a possibility too but I'd look at the first 2.
> 
> $20 is a lot for wyeast ($10 - 12 more usual here) but you can split, store and reuse to get maximum value. However the main advantage of liquid is simply the variety - well treated, healthy sufficient yeast should give good beer, whether dry or liquid.
> BIAB no chill can and will make excellent quality beer although I'd recommend proper no chill as opposed to kettle standing.




Thanks for that, how do I split yeast?
Do you think I am adding to much air when transferring the wort to the fv with my trusty sanitized jug?
I have also been doing a sparge of sorts with 3-4 lts of water @ around 75C. Always careful with the yeast and get good numbers on the hydro at both ends of the fermentation. Getting over 80 efficiency at times but not always.


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## Nick667 (6/12/15)

> Depending on your vessel, yes I would separate the trub. If you're no-chilling (I'm in that crowd) then, if you have a metal pot, install a ball valve at the base with a pickup tube running to the edge of the vessel. Add Brewbrite/Irish moss/whirlfloc/protofloc before flameout. Wait 10 mins, give it a good vortex with a spoon then wait 20-30 mins to settle. If you do it right you'll leave most of the rubbish in a cone at the bottom of the pot. If you don't want a tap, just do as above and use a siphon to the bottom edge similar to above.
> Regarding yeast, think about the cost at the end of the day. $20 is a bit ($13-odd in Aus) but you're making 23l. There is a much bigger range and you'd be blown away at the difference yeast can make to a batch. If you're looking to up the ante, seriously consider yeast management. Best investment I've made in beer is the stir plate, O2 and fermentation control. Also liquid yeasts can be split and reused so there can be more economical than dry yeast if you play your cards right.
> Speaking of which you say you have temp control. Are you talking about fermentation or brewing wort? If the former, getting acetaldehyde implies you might be fermenting too warm depending on your beer type. If the latter, get temp control for fermenting.


That's really helpful thanks.
I have temp control at both ends I even used the stc-1000 to help control mash temp last time but I do use a gas burner to heat and boil.


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## manticle (6/12/15)

There's some great detailed threads on here about yeast splitting and reuse. Hard for me to link using a phone but use the search function top right and find various threads by wolfy.

Transferring with a jug to fv is not ideal.

You can drill out a pot and fit with weldless tap and silicon hose or siphon from the top.


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## mxd (6/12/15)

Nick667 said:


> Do you think I am adding to much air when transferring the wort to the fv with my trusty sanitized jug?


 you need a good amount of O2 for fermenting, so I don't think this would be an issue.

Are you splashing it around when pouring into the fermenter ?

For me, drill hole in kettle, add valve, put wort into a cube to get it off the hot break.

As have been asked, do you have any issues ? you may be making better beer than the rest of us ?

You mentioned green apples, carbonation and head.

Green apples could be caused from a young beer, or air post fermentation
carbonation could be drinking to quickly, temp control when you're trying to carbonate.
too much head could be over carbed beer (not enough time in bottle)

there's lots of discussions on BIAB, No chill etc..
if you read them you'll see all the opinions about the "best way"
good luck


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## manticle (6/12/15)

I misread as transferring hot but of course you're slow chilling in the kettle, then transferring so that bit is ok.


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## kunfaced (6/12/15)

Do you do a mash out? If I skip the mash out I lose out 10-15% on my efficiency. I've never heard of anyone using a jug to transfer, I like the cut of your jib. Get yourself some silicon hose though, save the hassle.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

You loose 10-15% by not doing a mash out..... :huh:


How..... ?


Something I have never experienced. All mashout does is to stop the enzyme activity which stops conversion.


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## kunfaced (6/12/15)

Don't really know why, 65% with no mashout and 80% with mashout. Maybe it's the added time of the grain in the water? Or the warmer temp allowing easier suspension of sugars?


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## Barge (6/12/15)

I certainly get some increased efficiency with a mashout. Probably around the 10% mark.


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## Barge (6/12/15)

This might be unique to BIAB. I couldn't see a mashout helping a 3V that much.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

Ahhh....BIAB. 

The mash out temp helps rinse the sugars out, which is why its works so well with BIAB


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## antiphile (6/12/15)

Nick667 said:


> Also c/o this forum I have been giving the wort a 10min protein rest @ 72deg. Now got lots of head sometimes too much.


I'm sure this is just a typo, but the common range for a protein rest is 50-53C


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## Futur (7/12/15)

Just saw this: http://brulosophy.com/2015/11/09/cooling-the-wort-pt-1-no-chill-vs-quick-chill-exbeeriment-results/

It may help sway you, it may not. I'm inclined to start chilling my house beers to see if I notice an improvement.


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## manticle (7/12/15)

antiphile said:


> I'm sure this is just a typo, but the common range for a protein rest is 50-53C


70-72 favours glycoproteins which contribute to head retention.


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## michaeld16 (7/12/15)

Nick667 said:


> Do you think I am adding to much air when transferring the wort to the fv with my trusty sanitized jug?


As mentioned this may not be the best way to transfer but adding oxygen is a good thing at this stage but not catching dust particles in the air and putting that into the fv


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## Bribie G (8/12/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ahhh....BIAB.
> 
> The mash out temp helps rinse the sugars out, which is why its works so well with BIAB


The advantage of the mashout for all systems is that it takes the mash through the Alpha Amylase range to clean up any starches still lurking after a cool mash, say a 63 degree job.


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## Nick667 (9/12/15)

So I am doing a mash out right?? I got the idea here because I wasn't getting enough head and it works a treat. Sometimes I have big fluffy heads that I have to let calm down before pouring into the glass.
72C for 10 mins after 60 min mash, really easy.
Somewhere in my primitive system I am getting an infection. so this week I purchased a "budget" copper chiller and will invest in a syphon. Also I am soaking everything over night in a weak solution of the pink stuff.
I am really looking forward to not having to guess the hop additions for a change.

P.S. Just bulk primed 24lts with iodised salt today. What a disaster! Had to toss the lot! didn't realise till I tasted it and would have to say, don't try this at home.
Wife put it where my sugar usually is but I should have checked. It happens with age you know.


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## manticle (9/12/15)

72 is good for head retention but it isn't mashout temperatures. 78+ for mashout.


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## kunfaced (9/12/15)

I aim for 78c mashout with BIAB. Works a treat. If you want to improve the efficiency another 5-10% you can do a mini sparge with the bag of grain in a fermenter. If you aren't using any acids in your water, then keep the sparge volume down low, because the out of whack ph festers an easier environment for extracting too much tannin.

My results for different BIAB steps:

no mashout: 65% tops
mashout: 75-80%
mashout + sparge: 90-95%
no mashout + sparge: 65-70%

I find lower end protein rests a must when it comes to brews with lots of adjuncts. For your too much head problem at 72c, maybe stretching out your mash time before raising the temp. I don't mash under 90 minutes.


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/12/15)

*How to mash out for new brewers who batch sparge.*

When your mash time is up, grab about 3-4ltrs of boiling water and dump that in your tun. Give it a stir, let it settle for 5 then drain and rec-circulate ( dont forget your piece of foil or saucer )until the runings are clear. You will need to re-circulate a few times. Adding the extra water will help sparging, rinse more sugars out and make life a bit easier all round

Add more boiling water to the grain bed, give it a stir, let it settle then drain, re-circulate, drain into fermenter, repeat until you have kettle boil volume.

The boiling water does 2 things

1. Does the mash out stage
2. Helps dissolve more sugars into the wort.

Dont freak out like some brewers have when this method gets mentioned. Boiling water wont raise the temp of the grain as much as you think. By the 3rd sparge tour probably just getting over 80*c.


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## Bribie G (9/12/15)

Although Stu's method sounds rough as guts it's basically the method that was used by the guy who regularly took out firsts in Lagers and Pilsners in the Nationals for several years, and I was his bitch at a brewday. We were both members of the Pine Rivers Club PUBS at the time. He recirculated using a plastic Big W 1.5L jug. I still have the jug as he put the jug up as a raffle prize at PUBS when he stopped brewing and took up rockabilly dancing and restoration of 1950s Chevys.
I won the jug and it has its own place on a shelf in the brewhouse.


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/12/15)

Ironically I to had a 1.5L plastic Big W jug. 

Its sure does sound rough, but there is no point trying to sugar coat it.

Its simple and it works, and works every time


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## manticle (9/12/15)

Nothing wrong with the cheapo plastic jug. Another user here although mine is 2L.


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/12/15)

Rich bastard


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## manticle (9/12/15)

I worked very hard for that 500 mL


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## S.E (9/12/15)

The jug and grain bag were actually traditional tools of the home brewer way before BIAB was popular here on AHB and the interweb. Simple methods are often the best to start with, and indeed continue with.


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## stm (10/12/15)

1. As you have temp control, have you experimented with different temps, eg fermenting ales with US05 at say 16 or 17 deg C?
2. Very easy to no-chill with a cube or jerrycan (using a silicone hose) - you get the wort off the trub and little chance of infection.
3. More hops!


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## Nick667 (10/12/15)

Great info thanks.
I will try a mash out next brew and maybe sparge with water @ 75C I was running 3-4 lts through the bag sitting on an oven rack over the boil pot after mash but got some off flavours possibly because of it. So thanks Kunfaced.
How can I re-circulate using BIAB?


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## kunfaced (10/12/15)

Install one pf these on the bottom of your pot

http://www.cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/index.php/everything-mashing/brewing-kettle-accessories/product/180-1-2-stainless-steel-2-piece-full-bore-ball-valve?search=valve


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## Chookers (23/12/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You should think about refining your changed methods


I would work out, and then refine your change


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## goatchop41 (4/1/16)

kunfaced said:


> Install one pf these on the bottom of your pot
> 
> http://www.cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/index.php/everything-mashing/brewing-kettle-accessories/product/180-1-2-stainless-steel-2-piece-full-bore-ball-valve?search=valve


I have been meaning to put one of these on my urn for ages (it's a model that doesn't have its own tap). I have the ball valve, but haven't put it on yet.
One question that I have about it is which side I should put the silicone washer on? Half of the threads and websites about installing one say on the tap side, and the other half say to put it in the kettle side...I take that as to mean that I'd just try one side, if it leaks then try the other side?


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## mofox1 (4/1/16)

goatchop41 said:


> I have been meaning to put one of these on my urn for ages (it's a model that doesn't have its own tap). I have the ball valve, but haven't put it on yet.
> One question that I have about it is which side I should put the silicone washer on? Half of the threads and websites about installing one say on the tap side, and the other half say to put it in the kettle side...I take that as to mean that I'd just try one side, if it leaks then try the other side?


Either or... outside works well. As a Electric Brewery fanboi:







From http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hot-liquor-tank?page=4

Although where I need a compression fitting on the inside of the kettle/tun these are the bomb:





From http://connorbreware.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=64_94&product_id=184

1/2" thread to 1/2" compression. One "fixed" nut (part of the bulkhead) and one free (as in loose...). Tightens up crazy well...

Also available from aliexpress, but the dollar aint nearly doing so well against the US as when I bought these before.


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