# All Apple Cider



## manticle (22/2/09)

I'm wanting to make a cider from apples (different types) and maybe some organic apple juice. I may add a tin of pale malt and some dextrose.

As of yet I haven't worked out the full recipe but searching for all juice apple ciders suggests campden tablets are often used to kill wild yeasts.

I'm likely to boil my apples and any malt I my or may not add so if I do this will I still need to use campden?

My concern is that sodium metasulphite gives a weird sulphuric flvour to cider if not rinsed after use so campden (usually described as potassium metasulphite) might have a similar effect.

Is boiling enough to kill wild yeasts and bacteria from fruit?


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## Bizier (23/2/09)

Boiling will kill a bunch of desired aromas and you will get a cooked apple flavour.

Sodium/potassium met are AFAIK able to be treated as essentially the same thing.

If you dose it correctly, you should be able to kill most wild yeast etc and it will mostly evaporate off. But yes, it will "contain sulphites" like commercial wines and ciders.

I am unsure what you want malt and dex in there.

Just my 2c of course


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## Supra-Jim (23/2/09)

Malt will add a little body to the cider, but you really don't want to be putting very much in at all. Especially as you seem to be going to the effort of ogranising fresh juice. Just throw yeast in and ferment that.

Dex will bump up your alcohol content, and thats about it. All depends how strong you want it.

Remember also that there is very little nutrient for the yeast in juice, so you will need to add yeast nutrient to the mix.

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## tcraig20 (23/2/09)

Bizier said:


> Boiling will kill a bunch of desired aromas and you will get a cooked apple flavour.



Also, you could end up with a significant pectin haze problem if you boil your apples.


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## manticle (23/2/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Malt will add a little body to the cider, but you really don't want to be putting very much in at all. Especially as you seem to be going to the effort of ogranising fresh juice. Just throw yeast in and ferment that.
> 
> Dex will bump up your alcohol content, and thats about it. All depends how strong you want it.
> 
> ...



Thanks all. I'll avoid boiling then. Malt is for body and dex to add alcohol and some dryness but I'm making this up based on pieces of information gleaned from everywhere rather than from any real knowledge or experience. Cider kits I've come across contain malts so I based the idea partly on that. Maybe I'll just try apples - at least then I can give a bottle to my coeliac mum.

The first time I ever made a kit based cider it reacted with the sodium met steriliser and gave a sulphuric odour to the finished product which I hope to avoid. I guess I'll just see how I go with the campden.


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## drsmurto (23/2/09)

manticle said:


> Thanks all. I'll avoid boiling then. Malt is for body and dex to add alcohol and some dryness but I'm making this up based on pieces of information gleaned from everywhere rather than from any real knowledge or experience. Cider kits I've come across contain malts so I based the idea partly on that. Maybe I'll just try apples - at least then I can give a bottle to my coeliac mum.
> 
> The first time I ever made a kit based cider it reacted with the sodium met steriliser and gave a sulphuris odour to the finished product which I hope to avoid. I guess I'll just see how I go with the campden.



Sodium met sanitiser will produce SO2 when added to water. Your kit has nothing to do with it. 

This odour (SO2) dissipates over 24-48h.

When making cider from apples i juiced all the apples and let the juice sit in a fermenter with 1 campden tablet. 24-48 hours later i rack the juice into another fermenter leaving behind the thick crusty layer that forms on the top.

Then i pitch a yeast - Wyeast 4766 is the only one i will use for ciders.

Franko is the cider master and adds small amounts of malt extract to his cider.

You dont need to add dextrose to dry it out, apple juice will ferment out dry by itself.

You should add some nutrient as mentioned to help the yeast along.

Have fun!

Cheers
DrSmurto


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## manticle (23/2/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Sodium met sanitiser will produce SO2 when added to water. Your kit has nothing to do with it.
> 
> This odour (SO2) dissipates over 24-48h.
> 
> ...




Not blaming the kit - I just realised why the smell was there after reading something on the back of a black rock cider kit that equated sulphur fumes with unrinsed sod. met.

Your method looks similar to some recipes I found for some breton ciders so I may head along those lines. I have a Champagne yeast and some nutrient which I was thinking of using. The wyyeast range gets mentioned so often on here that I may need to hunt some up.


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## drsmurto (23/2/09)

manticle said:


> Not blaming the kit - I just realised why the smell was there after reading something on the back of a black rock cider kit that equated sulphur fumes with unrinsed sod. met.
> 
> Your method looks similar to some recipes I found for some breton ciders so I may head along those lines. I have a Champagne yeast and some nutrient which I was thinking of using. The wyyeast range gets mentioned so often on here that I may need to hunt some up.



Breton ciders, now you are talking! 

I lived in Rennes, france for 6 months and drank plenty of the local cider whilst munching on galettes and crepes.

French cider apples are my next step in this quest.


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## tyoung (23/2/09)

I think Ross at Craftbrewer generally stocks the Wyeast 4766. I got it from him last time

Well worth a try - the results were better than Champagne yeast IMO.


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## komodo (23/2/09)

Ive just put down a cider made with fresh apples juiced to make 26L plus 500grams LDME and 200grams of dextrose.
I added some campden tablets then 48 hours latter pitched wyeast 4766.

Nos just to play the waiting game. 
Little concerned, as gravity was 1.090, that I might have close on apple wine on my hands but that should be ok if I dilute it out with some berri apple juice when it comes time to keg.


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## boingk (23/2/09)

Don't worry about diluting it. Just carbonate at high pressure and you'll have champagne on your hands. Happened to me once with a batch of high-alc cider, bottled in plastic at 1.020 and it went down to <1.000 

Good stuff...be keen to hear how it comes out with the fresh apples and all.

- boingk


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## manticle (23/2/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Breton ciders, now you are talking!
> 
> I lived in Rennes, france for 6 months and drank plenty of the local cider whilst munching on galettes and crepes.
> 
> French cider apples are my next step in this quest.



This link which has been posted on this forum before has some good information but if it's not too annoying I'd love some clarification (I apologise for the bad pun there)


If I'm reading correctly I crush/juice the apples, then leave the resulting fluid in a fermenter for 5 days to clarify. Do I add the Campden at this point?

I then transfer the 'wort' to a different vessel. Do I add the yeast at this point?

Thanks. Sorry if that's dumb.


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## drsmurto (23/2/09)

manticle said:


> This link which has been posted on this forum before has some good information but if it's not too annoying I'd love some clarification (I apologise for the bad pun there)
> 
> 
> If I'm reading correctly I crush/juice the apples, then leave the resulting fluid in a fermenter for 5 days to clarify. Do I add the Campden at this point?
> ...



Link?

Assuming its this one then there is one major difference.

Breton cider, like a lot of traditional ciders is fermented using the wild yeast that are found on the apples.

Adding a campden tablet will kill those.

But, the procedure i use is still similar in that i leave the juice in a fermenter for 1-2 days but with the campden tablet already added. I dont crush/press my apples, i use a juicer.

After 1-2 days there is a layer formed on top of the juice. I rack off the clear juice from under that and THEN add the yeast.

Cheers
DrSmurto


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## manticle (23/2/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Link?
> 
> Assuming its this one then there is one major difference.
> 
> ...




That's the one. Forgot to ctrl+v.

I was going to ask about using the wild yeasts but thought maybe I should make the first one a bit simpler.


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## drsmurto (24/2/09)

manticle said:


> That's the one. Forgot to ctrl+v.
> 
> I was going to ask about using the wild yeasts but thought maybe I should make the first one a bit simpler.



Go for Wyeast 4766 and get a few ciders under your belt before you tackle wild yeasts.

And, if you do go wild yeast, make sure you either thoroughly wash your apples or go organic.


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## komodo (24/2/09)

Guys sorry for the hijack
Quick question - My cider is getting a really suphury (is that a word?) smell - like rotten eggs.
Is this something I should be concerned about (its been fermenting since Sunday about 6pm). I'm lead to believe that this is caused by a lack of nitrogen.

I believe that this can be remedied by adding a yeast nutrient - should I add some nutrient now or is it too late?


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## manticle (24/2/09)

Komodo said:


> Guys sorry for the hijack
> Quick question - My cider is getting a really suphury (is that a word?) smell - like rotten eggs.
> Is this something I should be concerned about (its been fermenting since Sunday about 6pm). I'm lead to believe that this is caused by a lack of nitrogen.
> 
> I believe that this can be remedied by adding a yeast nutrient - should I add some nutrient now or is it too late?




Did you use Sodium Metasulphite to sanitise and did you rinse?

@Dr Smurto: Last question (at least for now): When juicing your apples do you remove core and bitter seeds?

Thanks for the hints and tips thus far.


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## komodo (24/2/09)

Manticle - yes and yes


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## drsmurto (24/2/09)

Sodium meta_bi_sulphite. 

You dont 'rinse'. You add it to the juice. It produces SO2 which kills any yeast present.

My juicer is takes whole apples. Quick and easy. No coring etc. I just wash them first and away i go.


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## Supra-Jim (24/2/09)

Komodo,

I had a similar sulphury smell start emitting from the fermenter about 2 days into the ferment. Unfortunately it was still there at the end.. However the cider tasted fine, no weird flavours. Most of the sulphur smell was evident just as it was poured and CO2 was escaping. Anyway, i took it off tap for a few weeks (for other reasons) and when i did get around to reconnecting it again, alot of the smell was gone.

Buggered if i know what it was.

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## komodo (24/2/09)

Sorry got my powders confused!

Sodium Percarbonate is what I used to clean - this I rinsed and then I sanitised with powdered Sodium Metabisulphate which I don't rinse. I hope that makes sense, and I hope Im doing this all right! - new to the whole brewing thing. 

Sodium Metabisulphate is in the campden tablets which I added to the must about 48 hours before pitching the yeast (actually I tell a lie it was more like 39 hours)

I didn't add a yeast nutrient when I pitched the yeast and I think this is where I'm going wrong?

Supra-Jim that's good news for me!
I have read that you can run the must over copper to try rid the smell. 
I think I'll try add a bit of yeast nutrient and try reducing the fermenting temp.


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## manticle (24/2/09)

Komodo said:


> Sorry got my powders confused!
> 
> Sodium Percarbonate is what I used to clean - this I rinsed and then I sanitised with powdered Sodium Metabisulphate which I don't rinse. I hope that makes sense, and I hope Im doing this all right! - new to the whole brewing thing.
> 
> ...



I mentioned this earlier. My first kit cider smelled sulphury during fermentation and in the bottle. It tasted ok but the odour was offputting. I read somewhere (maybe on the back of a black rock cider kit) that sodium met when unrinsed can cause this and since reading that, I've always rinsed my sanitised fermenter and had no similar problem.

This is what led to to ask about the campden tablets in the first place as I want to avoid it when I make my fresh juice cider

Maybe try using a different sanitiser and see if it makes a difference?


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## Supra-Jim (24/2/09)

I remember hearing on the Brewstrong podcast (episode on metalurgy) that copper can help provide good nutrients to a beer wort, so much so that some brewers swear by dropping a short length of 3/4" copper tube into the fermenter. I wonder if the same holds true for ciders?

Apparently there are no traces of copper carried over to the final product, as the FDA did extensive testing of breweries that had copper equipment, and no traces were detected.

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## komodo (24/2/09)

Hrmmm interesting there's an idea.


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## kabooby (24/2/09)

Good information here guys. I have got a 75L barrel a milk crate full of apples from my own tree. Going to jice them this weekend and have a go at a true cider.

Looking forward to it

Kabooby


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## manticle (24/2/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Sodium meta_bi_sulphite.
> 
> You dont 'rinse'. You add it to the juice. It produces SO2 which kills any yeast present.
> 
> My juicer is takes whole apples. Quick and easy. No coring etc. I just wash them first and away i go.



Just to clarify:

I meant sodium met as a sanitiser. I use it for all my homebrewing and while it's meant to be no rinse, I've had much better results rinsing (I rinse just before brewing/bottling with clean cold water).

Different from the use of campden for cider.


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## Bizier (24/2/09)

kabooby said:


> I have got a 75L barrel a milk crate full of apples from my own tree. Going to jice them this weekend and have a go at a true cider.



What variety are we talking there Kabooby?

Did you listen to the last "improved" episode of the jamil Show on Cider? Their guy spoke about waiting 'til the apple aroma reaches a peak. I totally know what he was talking about because I grew up on an apple farm. I would suggest you should sit on them til they smell amazing, if not already.


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## kabooby (24/2/09)

Bizier said:


> What variety are we talking there Kabooby?
> 
> Did you listen to the last "improved" episode of the jamil Show on Cider? Their guy spoke about waiting 'til the apple aroma reaches a peak. I totally know what he was talking about because I grew up on an apple farm. I would suggest you should sit on them til they smell amazing, if not already.



Yes mate, I have listened to that episode, lots of good info. The tree I have has granny smith and jonathan grafted onto one stock. I would say that 98% of them would be granny smith.

This is going to be my first real cider so I am looking forward to it.

Kabooby


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## Bizier (24/2/09)

Cool, it is funny that when that guy said the thing about the apple aroma, I instantly thought about RIPE Granny Smiths with the red russets and all, not the 3/4 size sour green things you have commercially available. I am keen to hear how you go.


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## kabooby (25/2/09)

I have to admit that most of my apples are a bit small. I just had a lot of them starting to fall of the tree and then my dogs would eat them. I also had a few that were getting burnt by the sun. So I tasted one and it tasted OK so I just picked them all.

I'll make sure I report back with the results

Kabooby


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## komodo (25/2/09)

Well I chucked a bit of copper pipe in my fermenter (that was a challenge making all the edges blunt and being able to clean and sanitise the whole damn thing) - I can report that the sulphur smell has actually decreased substantially over night (at least according to my partner - my nose couldn't smell the sulphur any way as I dont have a great sense of smell) - and fermentation activity seems to has slightly speed up (going by the bloop bloop coming from the airlock).

Be interesting to see how this turns out. 

As a side note - dog is scared stiff of the fermenter. Its funny to see him with his heckles up backing away from the fermenter.

I used a mixture of apples all unwaxed which I bought from the Dandenong Market. It would have been cheaper to buy berri juice but hopefully the real fruit gives us a better flavour at the end of the day. Time will tell.


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## Bizier (25/2/09)

Komodo said:


> It would have been cheaper to buy berri juice but hopefully the real fruit gives us a better flavour at the end of the day.



I have only done one all-Berri, and the cider tasted very much like fermented Berri...
I did this for my GF, and I am trying to persuede her to buy me more juice so I can do another, but I will be definitely be dosing it with fresh apples, yours should be loads better.


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## manticle (1/3/09)

I've compromised.

I bought (unfortunately from safeway) about 6 each of: Granny Smiths and pink ladies. I also bought 3 Nashi Pears, 2 brown type pears (missed the type in my excited rush) and two red/green pears (ditto).
I juiced those and added 2 L fresh preservative free apple juice (Berri), 2 L speyton fresh Tasmanian preservative free 700 ml preshafruit pink lady, 350 ml Preshafruit granny smith, 10 litres water and 5 g potassioum metabisulphite. That's sitting in my ferment for a couple of days - then I'll be adding 1 tin of brigalow kit cider, 1 kg dextrose and some white wine yeast and some nutrient, then top up to 23 L.

I know it's probably a sin to add the brigalow but I bought 2 of them a while back and would like to see the back of them - this is simply my way of improving the flavour of a below par kit. If it works well, I'll make the move to all apples and will see if I can hunt up some proper cider yeast.


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## MHB (1/3/09)

I just ordered a ton of cider juice from a cider maker

I have done the juice from Woolies

The crushing my own and blending in this and that, generally enjoyed the results, especially last years effort.

Finally the chance to use the right juice from proper cider apples



Too good an opportunity to pass up but ouch a ton of juice costs, about $2.50 / L landed



MHB


​


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## komodo (2/3/09)

Hrmmm Im a little sus - My cider seems to have fermented (using wyeast 4766) in 7 days start to finish. Does this seem a bit quick?


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## Melon (2/3/09)

Komodo said:


> Hrmmm Im a little sus - My cider seems to have fermented (using wyeast 4766) in 7 days start to finish. Does this seem a bit quick?



Depends on what temp it was at and how much sugar was in there to start with...


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## Tim (3/3/09)

To the guys who are juicing your own apples, how are you removing/filtering/lautering out all the pulp? Do you have a special fruit press that you use? Or does your juicer do this for you?

Also, does anyone know where cider falls under the excise laws? If you are a producer, can you get the same rebates as winemakers?


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## komodo (3/3/09)

My juicer (breville 400 watt thing) does it for me - MOSTLY. I think I'm still going to have to do some form of filtering as it doesn't do a perfect job with the pears


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## manticle (3/3/09)

Tim said:


> To the guys who are juicing your own apples, how are you removing/filtering/lautering out all the pulp? Do you have a special fruit press that you use? Or does your juicer do this for you?
> 
> Also, does anyone know where cider falls under the excise laws? If you are a producer, can you get the same rebates as winemakers?



I just used a juicer with a mesh filter (it took a fair while) but I'm also assuming the 48 hour clarification process will help with that too. This is my first not completely kit based cider so I won't really know till I've had a crack.


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## manticle (8/3/09)

It's gone down to 1000 after 7 days but it reeks to high heaven. I read somewhere else that if you leave it long enough in primary the smell will dissipate. Anyone had a similar experience or can offer the same/different advice?


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## manticle (9/3/09)

anybody??


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## kabooby (9/3/09)

I guess it depends on what it smells like. It's always good practice to leave the beer or cider on the yeast for a few days after it's finished. It gives it time to clean up and finish off.

Kabooby


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## manticle (9/3/09)

Like an apple farted after a big night on curry and beer.

I'll leave it several days and see if it dissipates. I'm optimistic.


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## manticle (9/3/09)

Actually just went out the shed and had a sniff. The smell is almost completely gone. 

Can't wait for this - only ever had kit HB cider before.


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## komodo (10/3/09)

Thats what mine smelled like!
Putting the copper in cleared the smell within 48 hours.


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## Tim (11/3/09)

Most 'real' ciders you get here in the UK taste like rotting vegetables and are pretty aweful. Perry is even worse.
Most traditionalists like it because its er traditional. they also like Morris dancing etc


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## manticle (11/3/09)

I'm hoping to get something like a magner's or aspall - not a compost bin.

Tradition is less interesting to me than drinking nice alcoholic beverages I made myself


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## Muggus (11/3/09)

Tim said:


> Most 'real' ciders you get here in the UK taste like rotting vegetables and are pretty aweful. Perry is even worse.
> Most traditionalists like it because its er traditional. they also like Morris dancing etc


Oh perry! I remember trying a couple of those over in thr UK. Smells like nail polish remover! :icon_vomit:


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## Greg.L (15/3/09)

I am a bit late to add to this thread. I make cider from my own apples, 150 L this year. I don't use pms or mms (camden tablets), just champagne yeast. Maybe because I use a mix of my own apples (crabs, cider and dessert, with some pears) I don't have any problems with pongy "rotten egg" ferments. I do a "malo lactic" ferment using commercial Lactic acid bacteria after the main ferment, which softens the taste considerably. A malo is very easy with cider because it is very high in malic acid. After that I bottle the same as beer.
Dessert apples give a fairly insipid cider, if you can get some wild or bitter cider apples it improves the flavour considerably. I dont think apples should be left after picking, just mill them and press straight away, and rehydrate the yeast in warm water before pitching for a better ferment. I use a garden mulcher as my mill.


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## damianjthorpe (10/5/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Sodium met sanitiser will produce SO2 when added to water. Your kit has nothing to do with it.
> 
> This odour (SO2) dissipates over 24-48h.
> 
> ...



G'day Brewers,

I have got 24L of cold pressed apple juice to make cider. I have campden tablets, but the packaging says use 1 tablet per 5L. Can someone please clarify how many tablets I should use to kill of the wild yeast and bacteria? Thnaks.

Cheers and happy brewing,
Damo


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