# Sub for POR in a Coopers Ale



## Tilt (23/9/16)

I regularly brew a Coopers Sparkling based on Tony Wheeler's BYO article recipe but living over the ditch I don't have a ready supply of decent Pride of Ringwood. 
I'm looking for ideas on a good substitute that doesn't stray too far from the original POR flavour.

After a search I see a few others have tried variations on POR (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/21143-recipedb-coopers-pale-ale-clone/page-9)with some success.
While I have a good bank of Coopers yeast grown up from bottle dregs and I'm happy with the grist I use I'm now looking to try and recreate something of the herbaceaous, peppery, woody, and 'ironlike' flavour I get from fresh POR.

My first thoughts are to use a combo of Northern Brewer and NZ cascade.
Are there any subs or combos others have tried ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/16)

Its kinds like asking what can you sub SAAZ with...

You may heave to see what you can buy locally in terms of varieties and choose something


----------



## Batz (23/9/16)

Horizon would work, in fact IMO it works better. It's what I use in my Aussie brews now.


----------



## Bribie G (23/9/16)

Cluster would also be in the same ballpark. Lion still use a bit of it in their Aussies.


----------



## Beersuit (23/9/16)

Sorry Bribie but Bintani tell me cluster is no longer being grown in Australia commercially so I don't know how lion could still be using it. 

Back on topic I would just go northern brewer minus the cascade leave it for something worthy.


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

There's always cigarette butts..

Sorry but I think POR belongs in toilet water. Im eternally scared by the hangovers caused by consuming in it CUB products :blink:


back on topic - super pride


----------



## Bribie G (23/9/16)

Beersuit said:


> Sorry Bribie but Bintani tell me cluster is no longer being grown in Australia commercially so I don't know how lion could still be using it.
> 
> Back on topic I would just go northern brewer minus the cascade leave it for something worthy.


not so

XXXX heavy is similar, no doubt more Golden Cluster used in that.


----------



## technobabble66 (23/9/16)

I'd agree with The Ducati Kid, in my limited experience, POR is fairly unique.
I like it, though obviously many don't.
It's an interesting type of sharp-but-good, solid bitterness, with a certain odd fruitiness to it. A great hop, imho.

I've used Horizon also - great bitterer & flavour hops, but i'd say it's still fairly different, depending on how close you want it to be. Could definitely use it instead, but it'll be fairly different.

I'd suggest to just try making a different beer - get some Citra and make an APA instead! You could essentially do the exact same recipe, and dry hop with 20g after its finished fermenting. Or Simcoe, Or Mosaic, or Horizon, etc, etc. Could be a good comparison for you, as to what POR brings to the table.

2c


----------



## Bribie G (23/9/16)

Having looked into it further I see from the Craftbrewer site that Cluster isn't indeed being grown commercially here any more.
I've used the US version in recipes from Bronzed Brews and they are certainly very Aussie in character.


----------



## Tilt (23/9/16)

Thanks all - a healthy range of opinions - what I'd hope for around these parts. 
I'm not looking for a direct and exact POR substitute, more a variation on the CSA theme which is distinctly different to a late hopped PA. 
Its definitely that rough, almost grating bitterness to balance a plain grist and lightly fruit yeast esters that I'm aiming for. 
I'll look into the Cluster and Horizon options.... and having flicked through the NZ Hops site I'm having thoughts about Southern Cross, Pacific Gem or Green Bullet as other contenders.
Looks like I'm going to have to do some field trials!


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Sorry but I think POR belongs in toilet water. Im eternally scared by the hangovers caused by consuming in it CUB products :blink:


CUB haven't used Pride in mainstream beer since the 80's. That's a long hangover.


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> CUB haven't used Pride in mainstream beer since the 80's. That's a long hangover.


Yep!!!!! 

GRRRRRR Fosters lager... And I believe it is still used in Fosters, Melbourne and Crown


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/16)

Coopers still use POR, and I dont find to many who wont drink it..( except VB drinkers )

Something stolen from the internet


Pride of Ringwood
Australian Bitter Hop
CULTIVAR NUMBER 115-53-001

ABOUT PRIDE OF RINGWOOD Pride of Ringwood is primarily a bittering variety. She gives a distinctly Australian flavour to beer, imparting a resinous character with some fruit-like tones in the mix. As a late-ripening variety, Pride of Ringwood is predominately grown in Tasmania where the longer season allows her to fully mature before harvest. She is often found in pale ales and lagers from breweries around Australia. BREW TIPS Pride of Ringwood is used predominantly for early kettle (bittering) additions. HOP STORY Pride of Ringwood heralds from the eastern suburbs of Melbourne where she was bred by Carlton and United Breweries in 1953 at their Ringwood Research Station, born of the daughter of Pride of Kent (12-50-5, via open pollination at the East Malling research station, UK). She was an instant celebrity when unveiled in the 1960s, she could boast the title of highest alpha acid containing hop in the world. Whilst many hop varieties have since been released containing much higher levels of alpha acid, this variety has withstood the test of time and to this day is known around the world as being synonymous with Foster’s Lager.

ANALYTICAL DATA

Alpha acids (%) 8.6 - 10.5
Beta acids (%) 4.4 - 7.0
Alpha/Beta Ratio 1.3 - 1.9
Cohumulone (% of alpha acid) 26 - 34
Total Oils (ml/100g) 1.6 - 1.8
Oil Concentration (microlitres of oil/g alpha) 162 - 186
Myrcene (% of whole oil) 24 - 41
Caryophyllene (% of whole oil) 9 - 14
Farnesene (% of whole oil) 0 - 1
Humulene (% of whole oil) 2 - 4
Selinene (% of whole oil) 19 - 30
Humulene/Caryophyllene ratio 0.2 – 0.3


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/16)

And some other stolen text from the internet


Pride of Ringwood Hop Stats
Here’s the general stats on Pride of Ringwood, if you just want to get down to it and brew:

*Alpha acids: *7-10.5%
*Aromas and flavours: *woods such as cedar and oak, herbs, spice, and some fruit
*Substitutions: *Galena, Cluster
*Common beer styles: *Australian ales and lagers
*Uses: *bittering
 Flavours in Pride of Ringwood Hops
Pride of Ringwood is primarily a bittering hop due to its high alpha acid range but, as mentioned, this hop was produced so widely in Australia it’s been used across the board. Because of that, it’s found its way to be a dominant flavour that can be found in older, mass produced Australian beers.
It’s quite a woody hop giving off characteristics of cedar and oak. This can create a very refreshing element to lighter styles of beer or give some class and warmth to heavier styles and dark beers. If the hops aren’t fresh though or the beer gets stale, the brewer risks these wonderful wood tones turning more to cardboard than the wonderful wood that this hop should be showcasing.
*Being bread from Pride of Kent, Pride of Ringwood shows some generally English elements* with good spice and a rounder herbal taste and aroma.
So while this hop gets a reputation for being overused, there’s something classy about oak, cedar, and some spice and herbs. It feels like a fancy library. Use this hop properly and that’s what you get.


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

Grown on the banks of the mullum mullum river apparantly...


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Yep!!!!!
> 
> I believe it is still used in Fosters, Melbourne and Crown


Believe anything you want mate.

As stated, it hasn't been used in any of them since the 80's.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> there’s something classy


Agreed, I really like POR. I was told the other day that it's been pulled from Rostrevor, no production from 2017 on.

The source was pretty reliable (brewer in the north east with a good relationship with HPA) but I still think "Tell me it ain't so".


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Believe anything you want mate.
> 
> As stated, it hasn't been used in any of them since the 80's.


Big call..

Their own marketing states they still use it. Whilst I dont believe everything I read, in this age of litigation it would be extraordinary foolish for such a corporation to publicly make such claim if its so demonstrably false.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

To be fair there is a limited sense in which this could have been true: back then Pride was the dominant variety in Australian hop gardens so the supercritical CO2 extract which is the only hop product used in these beers would have been at least partially derived from it.

Two problems with this:

Firstly, the acreage planted to Pride has been in decline for 30 years, partially because CUB went to using exclusively extract* in the major products, thereby taking out something like half the hop demand in Australia. I believe this happened in the early 80's but I wasn't in the industry until 1987 so if someone has better data please chime in.

As stated above I am reliably informed the commercial acreage of Pride is now zero.

Secondly, the hop variety used in the supercritical extract has **** all influence on the outcome. It's just IAA, no hop flavour to speak of.





* extract is about three times as efficient as kettle hopping, the economic advantage is obvious.


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

Provide the conclusive evidence its not - we can start a class action


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

Ask HPA what the total acreage of Pride in Australia is.


----------



## technobabble66 (23/9/16)

^^ It's previously stated on the forum somewhere a few weeks ago. Sounds like it's a common rumour in the industry.

@ tilt, i wonder if Helga might be worth a try. It's a Hallertau variety/variant, i believe, grown in Oz.
It'll be fairly different, but still fairly subtle to let the malts and yeast shine, and should be fairly dissimilar to a PA, especially if you don't dry hop with anything. Bit spicy & floral, with a slight herbal element with a smoother bitterness, i believe. Got some in the freezer, but not used it yet. Just a thought.


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

And that the conclusive proof.... Strike LC from the witness list


----------



## technobabble66 (23/9/16)

Might not be LC's proof, just what i was going on 



:icon_offtopic: 
BTW, timmi, how's your westy 12 clone going, & which recipe did you use?


----------



## timmi9191 (23/9/16)

Wasnt referring to your post as the conclusive proof.. You must have slipped in before me 

OT - westy 12 used the HBT thread recipe. Its 3 weeks in but has stalled at 1020. aiming for 1013. Tried most things to reinvigorate but nothing. contemplating racking it to secondary and pitching some US05 to finish off the last 7 points.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

If the total acreage in Australia is zero, the total amount used by CUB must be.....


----------



## yum beer (23/9/16)

a quick trip around CUB's website clearly labels at least 5 beers as using Pride of Ringwood.
Go to the source before having a bitch fight lads.


----------



## yum beer (23/9/16)

It also reads like CUB may have there own hop yards to grow POR, hence why HPA say they are growing none but its still out there.
I'm glad I have my own growing then to keep my Pale Ale and Aussie lager all hopped up.
I love the earthy quality of fresh POR.


----------



## MHB (23/9/16)

LBC is quite correct, even Tooheys have been using Super Prides for years. Galaxy and Topaz are taking over as extract hops, higher yields, better disease resistance...

To the OP, try NZ Fuggle, surprisingly nice hop, would suit the flavour you are looking for.
Mark


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

yum beer said:


> It also reads like CUB may have there own hop yards to grow POR, hence why HPA say they are growing none but its still out there.
> 
> I love the earthy quality of fresh POR.


Back in the 90's CUB owned the company that is now HPA. This was the peak of the vertical integration craze, they also owned Barret Burston at the time.

Both have since been divested.

I can't see why they would do this and then start their own hop gardens, but hey, they've done dumber things than that.


----------



## yum beer (23/9/16)

Doesn't make much sense to pull out the hop you use in many mainstream beers.
Maybe there is some major changes coming, perhaps they are going to go all extract and ditch the green stuff.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

They went to all extract in the mainstream beers around thirty years ago.

CUB built a supercritical CO2 hop extract plant some time in the 80s*. I believe they were one of the pioneers of this technology, CUB used to have an excellent R&D department, sadly long gone.

Isomerised hop extract is less than half the cost of using kettle hops, so the bean counters dictate that you use it as much as you can if you've already paid for the machine to make it**.

I know that in the early 90s CUB used the isomerised hop extract almost exclusively for the mainstream beers. IIRC there were a couple of exceptions, I think the short lived "Foster's Bitter" was one of them due to the very different way it was produced. I think we also retained a small kettle throw to assist with trub formation but it was inconsequential.

The product out of the brewhouse and fermenters was officially called "high gravity bitter / lager / draught" (or "normal gravity bitter / lager / draught" for plants lacking a water de-aerator) because it didn't have enough bitterness to qualify as nominated product, the bitterness was dosed to spec in the filter room.


* I'm not sure when, I wasn't working for them at the time.

** again I don't know the exact price of the plant but it was in the millions in 1980s dollars. We used to joke that if you wanted to be a millionaire for the last hour of your life you could sell the technology to the cocaine cartels.


----------



## yum beer (24/9/16)

even if using extract they require hops to make it.
So they are still going to need POR in the ground somewhere.
So HPA are either full of shit or are growing POR only for CUB contract.

Who's growing Coopers' POR for them?
Or are we gonna see the demise of Srarkling Ale as well.....


----------



## manticle (24/9/16)

Thirsty boy, who used to post here, gave me a couple of parting gifts once when I went to meet him to borrow some equipment.
TB has worked at cub/sab-miller in a brewing capacity since 89 I believe.

One was a small jar of carrageegan, the other a small jar (from a much larger package) of fresh pride of ringwood pellets which he'd brought home from the brewery.

I know they rely heavily on various extracts (iso, tetra, etc) and I also know a specific hop variety won't be the cause of anyone's hangover but I'd be surprised if none whatsoever has been used in the last 20-30 years.


----------



## Batz (24/9/16)

Hopco have Australian Pride of Ringwood on their site.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/16)

Coopers have contract growers for POR.

Just because HPA are not growing it idoes not mean that others are not growing it


----------



## Tilt (24/9/16)

Great discussion - def more interesting than the 'what can I use instead of' theme.... I've learnt something tonight.
Righto - I've got a good range of options to try, and have some NZ Fuggles in the freezer ATM so will go with that first up (glad you suggested it MHB - it looks like I can get ;some cones of this locally so will give them a try at some stage too) .
I can't see either Horizon or Cluster on the local HBSs lists so they'll have to wait until I do an overseas order.
I'm not sure I've seen Helga over here but I like the sound of it so I might have to get the relos to mule some over next time they visit - alongside a decent sized vac pack of POR!
I like the idea of doing different hopped versions of a Coopers Sparkling as its a regular house brew so will work through a few variations on a theme - and I'll try and remember to report back. Have to admit though I'm thinking it won't make such a huge difference with the hops really being the support act for a very distinctive yeast


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/9/16)

tilt said:


> I like the idea of doing different hopped versions of a Coopers Sparkling


You will learn much.

Pretty much the only way you will learn about hops


----------



## Meddo (26/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Snip
> 
> I know that in the early 90s CUB used the isomerised hop extract almost exclusively for the mainstream beers. IIRC there were a couple of exceptions, I think the short lived "Foster's Bitter" was one of them due to the very different way it was produced. I think we also retained a small kettle throw to assist with trub formation but it was inconsequential.
> 
> Snip


Sorry to go off-topic a bit but LC would you mind elaborating a bit about the Foster's Bitter? I remember snagging a couple of bottles and really enjoying them, although I was exclusively a VB drinker at the time. I'm curious about the differences you refer to, and I've never heard anyone else's opinion as to whether it was a decent drop or not either.

Thanks,


----------



## Bribie G (26/9/16)

Another member who works at CUB also mentioned the kettle throw for break formation, and recalling that, I often do it myself if I am doing a very late hopped beer.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (26/9/16)

Meddo said:


> LC would you mind elaborating a bit about the Foster's Bitter?


I was never directly involved in its production so I don't know much about it.

I believe it was a short, hot mash to produce a high gravity wort of low fermentability, I think it was something like 17 oP (1070 SG), I _think_ it was kettle hopped and I'm _guessing_ it was fermented at high gravity then cut back by about a third, like other CUB product. Final beer was around 2.8% ABV so there's a lot of remnant dextrins there.

My memory of the beer is that it had more flavour and interest than the other light beers of the time but a slightly syrupy texture which rapidly became cloying. It was an abject failure in the market.

Either it or one of its relatives (Power's Mid Strength, Matilda Bay Bitter) generated the dumbest complaint I ever dealt with: the guy sent it back because it didn't clean the barbecue properly. Maybe that's why it didn't sell.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (26/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Either it or one of its relatives (Power's Mid Strength, Matilda Bay Bitter) generated the dumbest complaint I ever dealt with: the guy sent it back because it didn't clean the barbecue properly.


Thats gold bro


----------

