# Help With Grain Bill For An Ipa



## JaseH (29/3/12)

I brewed an extract IPA a couple of months ago. Its my favorite drop at the moment and I'm about to run out so decided I better brew it again. I'm now doing AG, so will use the same hop schedule but need to come up with a grain recipe.

This was the extract malt recipe:

(24L batch size)
3.5kg LDME
0.5kg Dextrose
0.2kg Caramel/Crystal(118EBC)
0.1kg Carapils

It was fine, maybe a little sweet, possibly from all the LDME?

Anyway I brewed an all grain 10min IPA the other week, my first AG so trying to keep it simple I used this grain bill:

7.0kg Trad Ale Pale Malt (Joe White)
0.3kg Crystal (141EBC) (Joe White)

I tasted it the other day after a week in the bottle and it appears cloyingly sweet. It's still 'flat as a tack' so I'm assuming it will get better with some carbonation but am not sure I want my next one to be that sweet. I would still like some maltiness in there but without so much sweetness. Is the Joe White crystal responsible for this(it was only about 4% of the malt)?

If so would dropping the Crystal to about 2% and adding some Light or Dark Munich be better?


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## .DJ. (29/3/12)

Would need to know the IBU's/hop schedule... Maybe not enough IBU's, hence it being too sweet?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/3/12)

Have a look in my sig.

It's pretty close, except for the acidulated malt (because my water is alkaline) and the cara-rye adds that extra body and colour, without overdoing the sweetness.

The big thing with the AG brew, is you can mash low (64 degrees) - which will give you a higher amount of fermentables, which will mean the yeasties are happy and can munch away lots, which has the effect of drying out the beer (hence no sweetness).

Mine went from 1.063 - 1.009. A little high in abv%, but certainly not sweet.

Goomba


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## JaseH (29/3/12)

IBU/OG balance should have been good according to the recipe, here it is:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com 
Recipe: 10min Motueka IPA 
Brewer: Jason 
Asst Brewer: Murphy 
Style: American IPA 
TYPE: All Grain 
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications 
-------------------------- 
Boil Size: 32.87 l 
Post Boil Volume: 27.04 l 
Batch Size (fermenter): 24.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 23.00 l 
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG 
Estimated Color: 17.7 EBC 
Estimated IBU: 59.9 IBUs 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 % 
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.4 % 
Boil Time: 70 Minutes 

Ingredients: 
------------ 
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
7.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) ( Grain 1 95.9 % 
0.30 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2 4.1 % 
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 3 - 
225.00 g Motueka [7.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 4 59.9 IBUs 
1.0 pkg Keg King (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 m Yeast 5 - 

I did have some problems with strike temp, started about 50c after mashing in and eventually got it to ~66c after 45min of adding boiling water from the kitchen jug! I am not sure if that would have anything to do with it?


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## JaseH (29/3/12)

Strange thing was it finished at 1.010 - so wouldn't expect FG to be the problem? Might crack another bottle tonight to check it again, maybe it was just my perception at the time combined with no carbonation?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/3/12)

It's the 10 minute addition.

Yes the IBU numbers stack up, but the perceived bitterness is lower than an IPA where 30 IBU came from a 60 minute addition, and the rest from a 10 minute.

You got 60 IBU, but realistically it won't taste like it.

Add that into the fact that extract tends to finish sweeter, and that in an extract based beer your spec grains would have no starch-sugar conversion at all (owing to no base malt with some diastatic power to partially convert the starches to usable sugars in the spec malts).

Hope this helps, though I'm sure others with far more knowledge of the chemical stuff will put in far better theories.

Goomba


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## manticle (29/3/12)

Frothie said:


> I brewed an extract IPA a couple of months ago. Its my favorite drop at the moment and I'm about to run out so decided I better brew it again. I'm now doing AG, so will use the same hop schedule but need to come up with a grain recipe.
> 
> This was the extract malt recipe:
> 
> ...



My go to apa grist at the moment for a 20 L ish batch is

5.5 kg simpsons maris
1 kg munich
250g Briess victory
250g Simpsons heritage crystal

I use hops at 60, then every 5 minutes from 20 mins on, including flameout. Usually hitting between 45 and 55 IBU. 1272 is preferred, 05 or 1056 is acceptable.

If upping to AIPA territory, I would keep the percentages the same but up to get the gravity I wanted, then up the hops to hit the IBU I want. The 60 minute is no more than half the total IBU. I use mostly citrus/fruity US hops and some chinook to push the reinous tongue coating and slight pineyness although I have experimented with other hops (simcoe and citra recently).

Maris and munich together with the victory will give you malt characters that are rich, toasty, bready and bisuity but without being overly sweet. Crystal adds a touch of sweetness but also heritage crystal gives some complexity - raisin flavours, slight burnt toffeee etc. Lovely stuff.

This is presuming you are talking american IPA.

If English, I would drop the munich and obviously use English hops (and/or styrian goldings) and english yeast but keep a similar schedule.

Both of the above I dry hop in cold conditioning for 3-5 days with 1g per litre of hops total, using an equal portion of all hops that have appeared in the brewing process to make up that 20 odd grams.

I also step mash most things which helps with malt profile and attenuation but that grist and 64-65 should be fine. Get into step mashing when and if you feel like like it but don't overcomplicate at this stage of the game.

Even blending my late hop additions to every 20/10/0 instead of every 5 is simpler and will still give a good result - just use the amount you need late to get the IBU you want and make sure you include an early addition too.

As mentioned above - what is your hop schedule?


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## Kranky (29/3/12)

Frothie said:


> IBU/OG balance should have been good according to the recipe, here it is:
> 
> BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
> Recipe: 10min Motueka IPA
> ...



If your beer finished at 1.010 I would expect the beer to be fairly dry. If you are just starting out with all grain I'd spread your hop additions out more. As mentioned adding hops for 10 minutes isn't going to impart much bitterness at all. If I was doing that recipe I'd have 60 minute, 10 minute and 1 minute hop additions. Fermenting yeast strip out a lot of the hops flavours so don't be scared to hop aggressively. Your grain bill is fine, you never want too much crystal malt if you want a big hoppy beer.


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## Thefatdoghead (29/3/12)

Frothie said:


> Strange thing was it finished at 1.010 - so wouldn't expect FG to be the problem? Might crack another bottle tonight to check it again, maybe it was just my perception at the time combined with no carbonation?



Maybe the sweetness is from your bottle carbing method where there might be some residual dex left. When I bottle (not often) I get great carbonation but I can always taste just a bit of that god damn dextros and it brings me back to the K&K days. I'll keep trying to bottle every now and then until I get it right but it just brings me to tears dumping all that beer and cleaning all those bottles!!

Gav


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## manticle (29/3/12)

Yes flat as a tack + sweet suggest priming sugar. Should have picked that up.


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## JaseH (29/3/12)

Ok, so maybe the 10min IPA isnt a good basis to judge malt profile for my next IPA brew which has 60min, 10min, 0min and dry hopping.

I think the fact that it hasn't carbed up yet is definitely adding to the sweetness. I think my priming method is fine, I bulk prime by racking onto the dex solution, then give it gentle stir trying not to break the surface too much and aerate the beer. My previous brews have all carbed up fine and consistant. The 10min IPA has only been a week in the bottle so I wasn't expecting it to be ready, but I usually sneak a bottle a week in to see how its coming along. :drinks: I think with the cooler weather its going taking a bit longer to get going.

Here's the recipe at the moment, I know the hop additions are good, just wondering if the grain is in the ballpark?

Recipe: Hairy Eyeball IPA (AG) 
Brewer: Jase 
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American IPA 
TYPE: All Grain 
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications 
-------------------------- 
Boil Size: 35.16 l 
Post Boil Volume: 30.16 l 
Batch Size (fermenter): 27.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 26.00 l 
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG 
Estimated Color: 19.4 EBC 
Estimated IBU: 67.1 IBUs 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 64.00 % 
Est Mash Efficiency: 68.7 % 
Boil Time: 60 Minutes 

Ingredients: 
------------ 
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
6.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) ( Grain 1 78.3 % 
1.50 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain  2 18.1 % 
0.30 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 3 3.6 % 
40.00 g Warrior [17.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 4 54.5 IBUs 
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 - 
25.00 g Amarillo Gold [9.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 7.3 IBUs 
25.00 g Cascade [6.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 5.3 IBUs 
20.00 g Amarillo Gold [9.30 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs 
20.00 g Cascade [6.80 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs 
1.0 pkg Keg King (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 m Yeast 10 - 
30.00 g Amarillo Gold [9.30 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Day Hop 11 0.0 IBUs 
30.00 g Cascade [6.80 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
30.00 g Centennial [9.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge 
Total Grain Weight: 8.30 kg 
---------------------------- 
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash In Add 21.63 l of water at 73.2 C 66.7 C 60 min 

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, , 21.87l) of 75.6 C water


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## Thefatdoghead (29/3/12)

Frothie said:


> Ok, so maybe the 10min IPA isnt a good basis to judge malt profile for my next IPA brew which has 60min, 10min, 0min and dry hopping.
> 
> I think the fact that it hasn't carbed up yet is definitely adding to the sweetness. I think my priming method is fine, I bulk prime by racking onto the dex solution, then give it gentle stir trying not to break the surface too much and aerate the beer. My previous brews have all carbed up fine and consistant. The 10min IPA has only been a week in the bottle so I wasn't expecting it to be ready, but I usually sneak a bottle a week in to see how its coming along. :drinks: I think with the cooler weather its going taking a bit longer to get going.
> 
> ...



Hmm id probably drop the munich and replace with some wheat malt for head retention. Also id mash @ 65 and use 1272 yeast. I think Mant's said it in the other post as well. That hop combo looks like a killer......


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## Adam Howard (29/3/12)

Frothie said:


> I think the fact that it hasn't carbed up yet is definitely adding to the sweetness.



I'd say it isn't adding to the sweetness. It IS the sweetness. 300g of crystal malt in a 24L batch is hardly any, nowhere near enough to get a cloying sweetness, A good idea is when bottling fill one Coopers PET bottle when filling all your glass ones so you can squeeze it and determine when the batch is carbonated. Try chucking a teaspoon of dextrose in a schooner of beer and see how sweet it is.

Edit: Gav's spot on. Go with a kg of munich and half a kilo of wheat malt. Boy oh boy does it boost your head plus the lacing is amazing.


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## stakka82 (29/3/12)

Those headmaster glasses are amazing for lacing and head retention. Got a couple myself. 

I'm guessing they're purposefully manufactured with heaps of nucleation points on the inner surface?


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## Adam Howard (29/3/12)

stakka82 said:


> Those headmaster glasses are amazing for lacing and head retention. Got a couple myself.
> 
> I'm guessing they're purposefully manufactured with heaps of nucleation points on the inner surface?



Just on the bottom. It's like a sandblasted finish. Wheat malt certainly helps. Some beers can't even hold a head in a Headmaster!


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## stakka82 (29/3/12)

Ah. What an idiot. I have looked at the base like a million times and wondered why they were like that. Because mine are 'second hand' I always assumed that was wear from dishwashing chemicals or something!


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## JaseH (29/3/12)

Ok, reduced the munich and added some wheat, we'll see how it goes :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (30/3/12)

Sorry to confuse/disagree but the munich is fine, as is the rest of the base. Chuck 500g wheat in on top if you want.

Drink it when it's carbed properly and then start tweaking if you need to.


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## argon (30/3/12)

manticle said:


> Sorry to confuse/disagree but the munich is fine, as is the rest of the base. Chuck 500g wheat in on top if you want.
> 
> Drink it when it's carbed properly and then start tweaking if you need to.


I agree with this ^. No need for the wheat. Rarely do IPAs have wheat in them. Refer to brewing classic styles and you'll seldomly see the addition of wheat.

IPAs also rarely have problems with head retention. All those hops help out there.

IMO the last recipe quoted, will give you a good IPA.


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## JaseH (30/3/12)

Settled then, I'll stick with the recipe as is.

This will be my 4th AG yet I am still waiting for my first to bottle condition  should be a bit easier once I can start hooking into some of my brews and taste what grains do what!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (30/3/12)

argon said:


> IMO the last recipe quoted, will give you a good IPA.



This bloke has a commercially brewed IPA, which has been on tap at Archive.

He knows his stuff. Listen to him.


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