# Chill Haze



## Ross (30/9/05)

Just done 3 brews & got chill haze in all of them. The only difference to previous brews is that the latest grain from my hbs is Bairds MO rather than Fawcetts.
I seem to remember a while back that guys were complaining about this with Bairds??

Is there any way of stopping this happening - I boil hard for 90 mins & chill quickly - never suffered this before... 

This brew in CC was done with Wyeast ESB 1968. Pic taken at 2c & after warming in microwave...







Not happy - just done my xmas case Oktoberfest using same grain & 2 other brews... :angry: 

P.S. & before someone says - no filtering is not going to help  ...


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## AndrewQLD (30/9/05)

Hi Ross,
Some info:
http://www.gracedavison.com/products/fcph/...ar/chillhaz.htm
Taken from above link
More about Chill-Haze & Chill-Proofing

The clarity of beer is an important factor influencing consumer acceptance. The presence of haze in beer is usually associated with inferior quality. Haze in beer is, however, a natural phenomenon and proper treatment is required to prevent or delay its formation. 
Upon storage for one to three weeks, beer develops a cloudiness, which is only observable at about 0o and which completely re-dissolves if the temperature of the beer rises. This type of haze is called "chill-haze" and measures taken for its prevention are referred to as "chill-proofing". 
The two most important classes of compounds involved in chill-haze formation are proteins and polyphenols. The molecular weights (MW) of the proteins cover a wide range of about 1,000 to 1,000,000. They contribute to the mouthfeel and foam retention characteristics of the beer. The molecular weights of polyphenols range from 100 to several thousands with a very wide range of molecular structures. Polyphenols impart certain flavour characteristics and act as natural antioxidants preserving the original taste of beer. 
Chill-haze is formed by the combination of "haze-sensitive" proteins with "haze-sensitive" polyphenols, mainly via hydrogen bonding. Haze-sensitive means that certain proteins have a higher tendency to form complexes with polyphenols and vice versa. 
Chill-proofing can be achieved by selective removal of "haze-sensitive" proteins. DARACLAR beer stabilizing agents are synthetic silica gels of high purity and consistent quality, which selectively remove proteins that participate in chill-haze and not those responsible for beer foam or mouthfeel. 


And an interesting discussion here http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2911.html
Probably not much help but it's all the info I have.

Cheers
Andrew
Edited to add link


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## Gough (30/9/05)

That's really interesting Ross. I was one of those complaining of haze probs in most of my Baird's MO based beers from my _previous_ bag of this malt. My most recent bag has had less clarity issues. I know Warren from Melbourne has experienced the same thing. Maybe Baird's have some quality control issues given this significant variation beetween bags?? 

Shawn.


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## Ross (30/9/05)

Well I reckon It'll be one of the last times I use it - The hbs had asked for fawcetts as well, as I had warned them about the clarity issues raised on this forum - Unfortunately they still got Baird's delivered by the distributor :angry: 

I'll try Polyclar & then filter, to see if this helps...


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## Batz (30/9/05)

I had the same problem with "Kirin" malt , you need to do a stepped mash to fix this

Batz


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## Ross (30/9/05)

Batz said:


> I had the same problem with "Kirin" malt , you need to do a stepped mash to fix this
> 
> Batz
> [post="80441"][/post]​



What temp & for how long?


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## MAH (30/9/05)

Hi Ross

I've only ever used one bag of the Bairds MO. I can't remember any chill haze problems, but I still didn't like the malt. It just seemed a little bland and flat compared to the Fawcetts. My beers didn't have the same nicely rounded maltiness.

When I used it I mashed at 66C for 90mins at 3ltr per kilo and batch sparged.

Just not a malt I would use again.

Cheers
MAH


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## Sean (30/9/05)

Since the main complaint here seems to be against an English maltster, it might be worth noting that authentic English real ales DO chill-haze pretty regularly if subjected to temperatures below about 8 C. This isn't a problem because they aren't meant to be served that cold anyway.


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## Gough (30/9/05)

Sean said:


> Since the main complaint here seems to be against an English maltster, it might be worth noting that authentic English real ales DO chill-haze pretty regularly if subjected to temperatures below about 8 C. This isn't a problem because they aren't meant to be served that cold anyway.
> [post="80452"][/post]​



You may be right - I don't have enough experience of a wide variety of English Ales to argue. But it still seems confusing to me that with my current bag of Baird's MO I have no chill haze probs, and yet I did with my last one. FWIW I don't have chill haze probs with JW Pils and Ale malts, Weyermann Pils or Weyermann Munich Type I which are the other base malts I use. I have only had probs with a particular bag of MO and the new Bohemian Pilsner malt, which I'm putting down to the lack of a protein rest on my (stupid!) behalf... MO malt is supposed to be 'well modified'. I would stand by my observation, and that of other brewers I've spoken to about it that there seems to be inconsistencies in Baird's MO which is a shame given I really like the flavour  

As a side question, why is it that we can't get TF Maris Otter anymore?

Shawn.


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## Sean (30/9/05)

Gough said:


> Sean said:
> 
> 
> > Since the main complaint here seems to be against an English maltster, it might be worth noting that authentic English real ales DO chill-haze pretty regularly if subjected to temperatures below about 8 C. This isn't a problem because they aren't meant to be served that cold anyway.
> ...


I'm not disputing that there is an inconsistency - I've never used Baird's malts - I'm suggesting that avoiding chill-haze problems is not a priority for English maltsters as it's not a property that their main customers are concerned about. It possibly is an issue for J Whites and Weyermann (and Powells) because they have a different customer base - one that may expect to be able to chill beers without additional processing.


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## Tony (30/9/05)

I think Sean just hit the nail on the head.........

Drink your beer warmer 

Most of my ales get a bit of haze in them at 2 to 4 deg. but i like them at 8 deg and the haze has gone.

I have used All the JW malts, IMC munich, and the bairds MO and have a bit of haze in all of them

After they have matured a bit in the bottle the haze goes away and they are really bright clear.

Funny thing.......... the 2 clearest beers i have ever made were 70% wheat malt beers. A hefeweizen and a dunkelweizen brewed with WLP300.

as clear as comercial beer........... no shit.

cheers


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## Sean (30/9/05)

Tony said:


> I think Sean just hit the nail on the head.........
> 
> Drink your beer warmer
> 
> ...


Why anyone would want to chill any ale (Duvel and wheat beers excepted) below 11C baffles me anyway.


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## PostModern (30/9/05)

Sean said:


> Why anyone would want to chill any ale (Duvel and wheat beers excepted) below 11C baffles me anyway.
> [post="80490"][/post]​



Because here in Australia (big island, Southern Hemisphere), where the ambient temp is usually above 11C, by the time you've got to the bottom of a pint glass, the beer will have warmed by more than a few degrees. Now you may enjoy your Australian Pale Ales at 16C, but to me, that's a fermenting temperature, not a drinking temperature.


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## Sean (30/9/05)

PostModern said:


> Sean said:
> 
> 
> > Why anyone would want to chill any ale (Duvel and wheat beers excepted) below 11C baffles me anyway.
> ...


Seemed like a good argument till I moved to Mildura, and still run my keg fridge at 11 C. I'll compromise to the climate by pouring halves, not pints, but an ale at less than 10 C looses to much flavour - might as well switch to lager.


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## PostModern (30/9/05)

There you go, Ross. A solution. Move to Victoria where the climate is like England so you can serve your beers warmer. I believe that 2C is a touch cold for any beer (at that temp your tastebuds are pretty much inactive), but it seems insane to me to keep a keg fridge at 11. Sorry Sean, it's just not Australian.


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## ozbrewer (30/9/05)

i have to serve my beer at 2 deg c so they taste good




what does this mean


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## Hopsta (30/9/05)

I've got an ESB on tap now that ive only just force carbonated its got 1kg of bairds MO, 1.7kg DME, 340gm torrified wheat in it and is pretty hazy, i tried putting a sample in the microwave for 30secs and it was still hazy, i used finnings in it aswell they usually come out pretty clear, dunno what the prob is, maybe its got something to do with me shaking the hell outa the keg to carbonate it.... oh well i'll check it again in the morning and see......


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## jayse (1/10/05)

Iam another who's beer is kept around 8-12c in the cool space.
Just add i have used bairds with no dramas at all, but at 12c chill haze isn't even something i ever think about. Coldest my beer would ever be served would be about 8c and that is very rarely.
I know this is no help to the chill haze problem this thread is about.
Only sudgestion i have is cool it right down untill the haze forms then add your finnings.

the moral of the story is what not to do if a bird shits on you
Jayse


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## barfridge (1/10/05)

My oktoberfest has shocking chill haze, and it was a double decoction. So somehow I don't think a step mash will help.


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## Ross (1/10/05)

I don't keep my beer at 2c, if you read my post, it's CCing at 2c - My comment was that this malt is causing haze & I was very upset as I've done an Oktoberfest with it for the xmas case - not happy giving everyone a hazy beer, as this should be served chilled...

This article states that chill haze is a temporary precursor to permanent haze:

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...r/HSAmash.shtml


I will do a test, to see at what temp the haze disappears, but regardless, I prefer to make beers without this problem...


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## Sean (1/10/05)

PostModern said:


> There you go, Ross. A solution. Move to Victoria where the climate is like England so you can serve your beers warmer.


I don't think you could describe Mildura's climate as 'like England'.



> I believe that 2C is a touch cold for any beer (at that temp your tastebuds are pretty much inactive), but it seems insane to me to keep a keg fridge at 11. Sorry Sean, it's just not Australian.


I realise that, but an English beer served at 8C does not taste like an English beer. I'm not going to great effort to recreate good English ales, just to ruin them in the fridge.

But, trying not to completely derail the thread:



Ross said:


> I don't keep my beer at 2c, if you read my post, it's CCing at 2c - My comment was that this malt is causing haze & I was very upset as I've done an Oktoberfest with it for the xmas case - not happy giving everyone a hazy beer, as this should be served chilled...


I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.


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## AndrewQLD (1/10/05)

> I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.


Sean, can you elaborate on the processes that you mentioned above to avoid chill hazes, that might be the type of info Ross is after.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Ross (1/10/05)

AndrewQLD said:


> > I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.
> 
> 
> Sean, can you elaborate on the processes that you mentioned above to avoid chill hazes, that might be the type of info Ross is after.
> ...



Please do Sean - Exactly the question i was asking


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## Sean (1/10/05)

AndrewQLD said:


> > I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.
> 
> 
> Sean, can you elaborate on the processes that you mentioned above to avoid chill hazes, that might be the type of info Ross is after.
> ...


Unfortunately, that's where my knowledge stops - it's not an area I've explored in detail as none of the micro-breweries I had close contact with produced lagers, but I would imagine that those that do chill-filter in some way. The larger breweries all pasturise and process to death everything except their real-ales.


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## PostModern (1/10/05)

My apologies, Sean. I don't knnw what got into me last night.

Apologies to Ross for derailing the thread, too.

I think I was just reacting to Sean dismissing the problem of chill haze because no ale should be served below 11C. I tend to see red at blanket statements. Again, apologies to all, and I'll now bow out of this thread and retreat to the naughty corner for a while.


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## PeterS (1/10/05)

AndrewQLD said:


> Hi Ross,
> Some info:
> http://www.gracedavison.com/products/fcph/...ar/chillhaz.htm
> Taken from above link
> ...



Andrew, I would like to thank you for directing an interested observer, who does not have any particular input in to this subject to the links provided. I would say that reading the links that you referred me gave me a better understanding of chill haze. Your selective amplification of the important quotes were very helpfull. Whilst others preferred to direct us to a different environment between England and Australia I do understand that our indevidual tastes or the way we were brought up does influence our preferred serving temperature. This difference however, does not help me in trying to find how to rectify the problem of chill haze. As to how to overcome it is another matter, never the less it is obvious to me that the choice of selection of grains might be an influencing factor in this country, for it was not originally malted for our climate and preferred serving temperature.

Sorry Ross, I have no suggestions for you as I note that some users have no problems with the Bairds Malt. Personally, I have not used it to date, but from all reports, I might not want to use it in the future either judging from all the reports./ In that respect, thank you for the warning....

:beer: 
PeterS....


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## Jazzafish (1/10/05)

After all that...

Perhaps the yeast and malt combination needs to be considered, rather than just the malt. 

I mean, from what I have picked up , it is all related.

It may not be a direct answer, but it may be worth looking into it?

Obviously Ross, after reading posts on your filters and all that, you are a fan of a clear beer! All good there...

But even if the idea was slammed by others, some styles should be cloudy and contain the protiens and whatevers there making a chill haze. Filtering the chill haze agents out will probally have a big affect on the taste? Alter the style? A step towards the mentality and results from comanies like Lion Nathan? 

Wow, I quickly went on a tangent too... BACK ON TOPIC!

Ross has a chill haze issue and wants it fixed! 

I'm interested and looking into preventing chill haze, and fixing a brew with chill haze. Hopefully I can find something to help you Ross.


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## Jazzafish (1/10/05)

So Far... 

Hotside airation plays a role in it
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...r/HSAmash.shtml

This stuff filters it out, a bit more on this site to look at
http://www.gracedavison.com/Products/fcph/...ar/Benefits.htm

Acid Levels maybe?
http://www.gracedavison.com/Products/fcph/...ar/Benefits.htm

Another forum link
http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2911.html

Membership needed for more info here
http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/b...ssues/40-40.htm

This backs up the malt theorey
http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/2001/t4/robinson.htm

Howtobrew.com recons:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-8.html

Copper/metals + hot side aeration...
http://www.pqcorp.com/marketsserved/Brewing.asp


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## Darren (1/10/05)

Hi Ross,
I have had chill haze problems using all types of malt (Wey pils, Bairds and TF MO and also aussie ale and lager malts). I have also had no chill haze problems using the same malts in different batches.
I suspect that too hot sparge/over-sparging (leaching excess tannins) is the culprit. 
To echo others voices, chill haze in a pils malt would be a problem, but in an English ale malt, cool conditioning (which should drop most of the haze) followed by serving at ale temps is all the malt was designed to do.
cheers
Darren


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## Ross (1/10/05)

Darren said:


> Hi Ross,
> I have had chill haze problems using all types of malt (Wey pils, Bairds and TF MO and also aussie ale and lager malts). I have also had no chill haze problems using the same malts in different batches.
> I suspect that too hot sparge/over-sparging (leaching excess tannins) is the culprit.
> To echo others voices, chill haze in a pils malt would be a problem, but in an English ale malt, cool conditioning (which should drop most of the haze) followed by serving at ale temps is all the malt was designed to do.
> ...



Well being a big fan of Fawcetts MO & never having had the problem before, it's a bit annoying to have 3 beers (all ones I've brewed before as identically as I can), all made with Bairds, end up with this problem. I certainly wasn't aware that this is a common facet/(fault?) with British malts, but accept maybe it is & that I've been extremely lucky that my first 20+ AG's using MO have been crystal clear...
As a consequence I'll only use this malt if there's no other alternative & definately not in beer styles that need to be served cold - Will save a bit on the grain costs, so can't be all bad B) ...


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## Darren (2/10/05)

Ross,
You could check the batch number of the malt (should be on the bag) and contact the supplier and raise your concerns. I would be interested in the batch number too and will follow it up as well. Maybe they will suggest a particular crush/mash regime/water composition to help with the haze. MO malts are QC certified so there shouldn't be a problem with them.
cheers
Darren


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## Ross (2/10/05)

Darren said:


> Ross,
> You could check the batch number of the malt (should be on the bag) and contact the supplier and raise your concerns. I would be interested in the batch number too and will follow it up as well. Maybe they will suggest a particular crush/mash regime/water composition to help with the haze. MO malts are QC certified so there shouldn't be a problem with them.
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="80642"][/post]​



Good idea Darren, assuming they consider it a fault - By Seans comments it would appear that it's perfectly acceptable withing the trade??
I'll get the details on Monday when I pick up my new grain...

Cheers...


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## Ross (14/11/05)

Well for anyone interested,

The Polyclar followed by filtering, cleared the beer beautifully - Since Polyclar apparently also removes astringent off flavours & improves the shelf life of the beer, without any detrimental effects; I shall be using this on all my beers using Bairds MO, as a matter of course.

Also, an old but interesting article on removing haze here:

http://byo.com/feature/508.html

Cheers Ross


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## colinw (14/11/05)

I wish we could still get Fawcett's base malts. I have had slight chill haze in all the beers I've made with Bairds Maris Otter, even those with a high adjunct level (flaked maize or invert syrup). I have taken to using Polyclar in beers brewed with MO, and with Joe White Traditional Ale Malt.

On the other hand, beers made with Fawcett's Halcyon malt have come out crystal clear. I have a pale ale made with Fawcett's Halcyon on tap now, and it is brilliantly clear without using any finings at all.

cheers,
Colin


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## Ross (14/11/05)

colinw said:


> I wish we could still get Fawcett's base malts. I have had slight chill haze in all the beers I've made with Bairds Maris Otter, even those with a high adjunct level (flaked maize or invert syrup). I have taken to using Polyclar in beers brewed with MO, and with Joe White Traditional Ale Malt.
> 
> On the other hand, beers made with Fawcett's Halcyon malt have come out crystal clear. I have a pale ale made with Fawcett's Halcyon on tap now, and it is brilliantly clear without using any finings at all.
> 
> ...



Colin,

What's the difference between Halcyon & MO? Is it worth the change?

cheers Ross


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## colinw (14/11/05)

Halcyon is an English winter barley strain which is a cross between Maris Otter and a strain called Sargent. It has quite a different flavour to Maris Otter - less caramelly, and more crisp & grainy in character. My most recent batch of pale ale using it has a subtle peat like character which is quite delicious.

I think it would be a fine base malt for a Scottish ale, and have just purchased a pack of Wyeast Edinburgh in order to make such a beast.

cheers,
Colin


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## MHB (27/11/05)

I have had good results with PVPP.
As it is totally insoluble, and as it acts by binding the polyphenols it is removing one of the two big contributors to chill haze, and there are no problems getting rid of it once it has done its job.

I had a run of Lager brews that were throwing the most amazing amount of haze, took up doing a forcing test on a sample, if it showed too much haze, just add a heaped teaspoon of PVPP to the rack. (According to Kunze- 50g/HL is the upper limit under the Reinheitsgebot)

Found it helped a lot

It is reasonably available, they use it to prevent pinking in wine making, your LHB should be able to get some for you if they ask one of their suppliers of wine making equipment.

Good Brewing
MHB


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## Ross (27/11/05)

MHB said:


> I have had good results with PVPP.
> As it is totally insoluble, and as it acts by binding the polyphenols it is removing one of the two big contributors to chill haze, and there are no problems getting rid of it once it has done its job.
> 
> I had a run of Lager brews that were throwing the most amazing amount of haze, took up doing a forcing test on a sample, if it showed too much haze, just add a heaped teaspoon of PVPP to the rack. (According to Kunze- 50g/HL is the upper limit under the Reinheitsgebot)
> ...



It is great stuff - totally removed the haze from the MO brews I've done. Would still rather use a malt that doesn't need it though  ...


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