# Mash Hop Utilisation



## Voosher (15/6/06)

I'm interested to hear other's views of another one of those brewing pseudo-myths - mash hopping.
Personally, while still experimenting, I'm a fan. I find it gives a smoother and more subtle hop flavour which can be appropriate with some brews.
I'm about to start on an APA with significant mash hopping - say around half the IBU's. To that end I'm keen to hear what bitterness extraction rates you use. I've seen various estimates from -80% to -30% (relative to a 60m boil). To my taste I put it around -50% or roughly equivalent to a 15m boil for brews around the 1050 OG mark.
What rates do you use - especially if you use ProMash or Beersmith?
Any other thoughts you care to share?
Any hops or brews with which you find it particularly good - or otherwise?
Cheers.


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## BoilerBoy (15/6/06)

G'day voosher,

I mash hop or FWH most of the time, I just use the promash values as a guide which I really dont know how accurate they are, but as an indicater so far its worked well.

I was first told that mash hopping increased aroma and to put your last aroma additions in the mash.
It didn't seem to make any noticable difference at all and if any thing it lacked aroma, but the bittering and flavour is very smooth and I do it for that reason alone.

I tend to FWH with low AA noble hops and mash hop with higher AA hops.
I'm going to be doing an Aussie pale next week with the Pride Plus and Aussie Nugget I got from the cheap hops deal. With AA at 13% and 9.8% I will mash hop with these to smooth the bitterness and maximise the flavour. 
I havent used any of these hops yet so I'm looking forward to the result.

Cheers
BB


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## Stuster (17/6/06)

No experience in this to add, but just a link to an article you may well have read.

Just trying to make the thread a little less lonely, Voosher.


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## Ross (17/6/06)

Thanks for that link Stuster,

I regularly mash hop beers like my summer ale, but as i add late additions as well, i can't say what effect they are really contributing other than i love the final result. 
Time to do a beer with all flavour/aroma hops in the mash I think (I'd better get a bigger mash tun  ) & I'll report back my results...

cheers Ross


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## Jazzafish (17/6/06)

I have mash hopped with mid to high alpha acid hops in pale ales... beers turned out fine. Keen to check out the results you have Ross.

The main reason for my post is the question of the mash ph. Does the alpha acid affect this?


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## Voosher (18/6/06)

Thanks for the replies folks.
Hmmm. That lonely thread bizzo. Strange what you do with football on the telly and 15 pints in the belly in the wee hours!!

BB, For a moment there I thought you and I were the only Mash hoppers in the world.

Stuster, Thanks for the link. I've read it before but it probably should be included in any mash hopping discussion. Trouble is, it sometimes confirms mash hopping as a dark art.

Ross, When you devise your recipe I'd love to see it. I'm basically planning something similar. I'll probably keep the hopping very simple so I can taste the effect. Probably going to go Amarillo for bittering and the appropriate amount of Amarillo as a mash hop.

Jazza, I've asked the same question before and can't get a definitive answer. A couple of brewers insist that it does lower ph. A couple insist that it doesn't. And the rest of us are still in the dark. So if anyone has anything to add on that score I'd be very interested to hear it.

Mash hoppers of the world unite.
:super:


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## bindi (18/6/06)

Never done it <_< will try it next brew as explained in the link, thanks Stuster, read that before and never got around to it, time to give it a go with APA, open to ideas to the hops and amount in the mash [single batch for now].


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## beers (18/6/06)

I have left my mash hop utilization settings set at the beersmith default of -80%.
Like FWH, I believe the utilization % for mash hopping is dependant on how long the hops are in contact with the hot wort before being bought to the boil (the longer the time the less IBU's are contributed). & seeing as my mashing & sparging times tend to vary (I'm not the most consistant of brewers) I've found that when using bigger additions (& along with FWH additions) that results can be a little up & down. I've recently cut back to smaller additions of hops with a lower AA% trying to get some more consistant results.


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## BoilerBoy (18/6/06)

I am really interested in what Ross is proposing by extracting your total Ibu"s from the mash.

This has been in my mind ever since I first gave mash hopping a go, I may just have to give it a go myself,

Keep us posted Ross on your results

BB


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## Ross (19/6/06)

Ok, this is it - My house low alcohol Amber with all the hops moved from 15min/2min to the mash & scaled accordingly. This low alcohol beer should allow the difference to really show I hope.
I've dropped the 60gm aroma steep as well - so will be interesting to see how the aroma compares - I can always dry hop if necessary.

Mashop Amber 
American Amber Ale 

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Time: 90 min 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.10 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 53.8 % 
0.80 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 20.5 % 
0.30 kg Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (118.2 EBC) Grain 7.7 % 
0.30 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 7.7 % 
0.15 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.9 % 
0.13 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.3 % 
0.12 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 3.1 % 
30.00 gm Simcoe [12.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 9.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Cascade [6.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 4.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 4.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 3.4 IBU 
10.00 gm Centennial [10.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 2.6 IBU 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale (Safale #056) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.036 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.1 % 
Bitterness: 24.8 IBU Calories: 336 cal/l 
Est Color: 33.6 EBC Color: Color 
Mashed at 69c single infusion batch sparge


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## T.D. (19/6/06)

That recipe looks nice Ross, I am very interested to hear how it turns out!


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## Voosher (19/6/06)

Ross said:


> Ok, this is it - My house low alcohol Amber with all the hops moved from 15min/2min to the mash & scaled accordingly. This low alcohol beer should allow the difference to really show I hope.
> I've dropped the 60gm aroma steep as well - so will be interesting to see how the aroma compares - I can always dry hop if necessary.




Fair's fair.
I'll do a basic APA this weekend.

90% JW Pale; 5% Wheat; 5% JW CaraMalt.
Amarillo 60m boil to 20IBU
2g/l Amarillo Mash Hop (which I'm guessing is going to give around 20IBU)
1g/l Cascade at Flame out.

Target OG 1050
Target IBU 40
Wyeast 1272

Normally I do this with the Amarillo added at 10m at 1g/l.
1 week primary; 1 week secondary; 2 weeks conditioning; 4 weeks in the bottle...
I think your results may be in slightly ahead of mine, Ross!!!

Cheers.


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## Ross (19/6/06)

Voosher said:


> 1 week primary; 1 week secondary; 2 weeks conditioning; 4 weeks in the bottle...
> I think your results may be in slightly ahead of mine, Ross!!!



I've got to wait for the current brew to finish - But then 7 to 10 days primary, 1 day CC, Filter/Keg & carb.
So you're right - might just beat you  

Cheers ross


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## Voosher (19/6/06)

Ross said:


> Voosher said:
> 
> 
> > 1 week primary; 1 week secondary; 2 weeks conditioning; 4 weeks in the bottle...
> ...



Damn you keggers!!!
:chug:


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## T.D. (19/6/06)

Voosher said:


> 2g/l Amarillo Mash Hop (which I'm guessing is going to give around 20IBU)



That sounds a bit high to me, I reckon 11-12 IBUs is more like what you'll get from 2g/L of amarillo mash hopped. I am only guessing though based on my experience so its worth checking that...


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## Voosher (19/6/06)

T.D. said:


> Voosher said:
> 
> 
> > 2g/l Amarillo Mash Hop (which I'm guessing is going to give around 20IBU)
> ...



T.D.,
Your calcs are in the same ballpark as the ProMash (and Beersmith?) defaults for mash hopping which they set at about -80% compared with a straight 60m boil.
The only time I've done a direct comparision I did one brew with a 1g/l 15min addition and then the same brew with that 1g/l as a mash hop. To my palate the bitterness tasted about on a par which is actually a higher extraction than -80% for ProMash; somewhere around -50%.
Hence the stepping up of the mash hop to see how it compares with more of the bitterness dependent on the mash hopping. I should end up with an APA between 30 and 40IBU so it should be drinkable either way.
I notice Ross's calcs are pretty much the -80% mark as well.
If he reports it about right as far as bitterness is concerned I may just have to bump up the IBU's at bottling.
All good fun this game.
Cheers.


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## Voosher (26/6/06)

Put my "Mad Mash hop" APA down today.

Not really _that _mad...

12.5l batch
2.25kg JW Trad; 125g JW CaraMalt; 125g Wheat.
12g Amarillo @ 60m (20IBU approx)
30g Amarillo Mash hop
10g Cascade @ 10m
10g Cascade @ 1m

OG 1054
Wyeast 1272.

Nice bitter kick from the fresh wort.
ProMash said 20+IBU from the Mash hops... could be right after all.
Edit: No it didn't... 30+IBU according to ProMash... 
Time to download BeerSmith. Clearly I can't drive ProMash

Ross???


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## Ross (26/6/06)

Hey Voosher, looks nice - Here's the one I'll be doing this week

Mashop Amber 
American Amber Ale 

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 33.80 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.10 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 53.8 % 
0.80 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 20.5 % 
0.30 kg Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (118.2 EBC) Grain 7.7 % 
0.30 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 7.7 % 
0.15 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.9 % 
0.13 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.3 % 
0.12 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 3.1 % 
30.00 gm Simcoe [12.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 9.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Cascade [6.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 4.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 4.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 3.4 IBU 
10.00 gm Centennial [10.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 2.6 IBU 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale (Safale #056) Yeast-Ale 

cheers Ross


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## Voosher (26/6/06)

Cheers Ross.
One day I must fork out the readies and get the real version of one of these brewing programs.
The recipes look so much nicer when they're printed out with all details!!!
I look forward to your feedback.

If mine passes muster Ross, I'll try to remember to send you a sample.
Feel free to post a reminder for me when I bottle in 3-4 weeks time!!!


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## Ross (25/8/06)

Finally got round to doing my 100% mash hop amber, recipe as previously posted. I made my usual brew with all hops at 15 mins & later for a side by side comparison. 
The mash hopped beer is a huge dissapointment, not a touch on my regular brew. The only aroma is from the malt & the beer lacks depth & complexity. It is still a very quaffable beer, but tastes "commercial". The upshot is, that mash hops IMO don't add anything that can't be achieved better & more economically by adding to the boil.

How did yours turn out Voosher?


Cheers Ross


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## Voosher (28/8/06)

Ross said:


> How did yours turn out Voosher?
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



You tell me!
A couple of bottles should soon be winging their way north.

Mine spent about a month in conditioning while I waited for the opportunity/motivation to bottle it (yes I know... kegs, kegs, kegs). It will probably get a public outing at the Grumpy's Stammtisch this Friday so I may or may not feel inclined to publish wider opinions.
My impressions on bottling are best summed up in one word... Tame.
It tasted smooth enough... perhaps too smooth which renders it close to the quaffing class. It seemed okay for my tastes but I doubt I'm quite the hop addict you are so I can understand you being underwhelmed with your results.
I still think mash hopping has its place for certain beers. I've mash-hopped a few styles. The fave so far was a porter where subtle hopping is not out of place.
I still have a stack of Amarillo so I may well try an all mash-hopped monster just to check it out.
Thanks for your contribution to the exercise.
Cheers.


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## Voosher (9/9/06)

Allright. I've had a bit of an APA tasting evening and I'm pretty happy with this brew.
It's pretty smooth so I can certainly up the hops a bit - maybe 40g mash hops next time (it's a half batch remember) - mash-hopping seems to take a lot of the "throat-rip" out of the Amarillo but I'm happy to make sure that's there when required with the bittering anyway.
The aroma particularly seems much deeper than with standard late additions - a big sniff of the lacework of the empty glass is still heavenly.
I'm certainly going to keep mash-hopping certain brews and I'm thinking that it'll probably work best at either end of the hop spectrum i.e. (1) where hopping should be evident but subtle and (2) where you want big hops but without the rawness that come sometimes comes through with a ton of late hops. The downside comes with the fact that you need more hops in the mash than you need as late additions. I've heard 1.5 times suggested as a guide... I'd suggest at least double the normal late hops if you're going to put them in the mash.
It's been suggested to me that mash-hopping would work best with oily hops (Why? I dunno!) so I may as well go mad and mash-hop with Chinook to test that theory!
As for utilisation, which was my original question, I'd figure the Promash default (-80%) is actually about right.
Cheers and (more) beers.


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## Steve (20/9/06)

Is it ok to mash hop with pellets or are plugs/flowers the best option. Do you just chuck them on top of the grain before pouring in the water?
Cheers
Steve

P.S. Doing Ross's Nelson Sauvin Summer ale on Saturday.


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## Voosher (20/9/06)

Steve said:


> Is it ok to mash hop with pellets or are plugs/flowers the best option. Do you just chuck them on top of the grain before pouring in the water?
> Cheers
> Steve
> 
> P.S. Doing Ross's Nelson Sauvin Summer ale on Saturday.



Pellets are fine Steve. Plugs or flowers would probably yield the same sort of flavour advantages as they do in a normal boil but as the mash hopping tends to mute flavours a little I think you'd struggle to notice a significant difference.
I just chuck them in with the grain and mash as per usual.

How's that foot doing?


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## Steve (20/9/06)

Voosher said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > Is it ok to mash hop with pellets or are plugs/flowers the best option. Do you just chuck them on top of the grain before pouring in the water?
> ...



Cheers fella will give the pellets a go!
Foots getting better. Funnily enough the pain seems to ease as soon as I get home and crack a longneck or two. Strange!
Steve


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## sluggerdog (20/9/06)

I have found that mash hopping is good for my lager/pilsners (german pilsner not bohemian) where I do not add in any flavour or aroma hops. It gives it a subtle flavour which I have trouble getting from adding flavour hops to the boil.

For a big hoppy beer like an APA I find it isn't necessary and just hop into the boil.


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