# Washed Yeast Cake



## Murdoch (21/6/10)

I have been experimenting reusing yeast cake
I have successfully re-pitched the slurry into the next brew made straight after kegging the previous brew
From the 1st harvest I saved the remaining yeast cake to practice & experiment with yeast handling & washing
I "washed" it about 5-6 times in cooled pre-boiled water
The last time the water in the samples were nearly clear
So I thought it would clear them right up
But the last time the samples went cloudy again & seemed to have "solids in suspension"
At the time I guessed I may have infected them (theres 7 samples)
So I just put them in the fridge to see what happens
After 5 days or so they settled out again to where the water is quite clear
But what I expect is the yeast (middle layer, between trub & water) looks to be a brownish colour
Does this sound right, I think I read it was supposed to be a yellowish colour ?
I`m not too concerned if it is off as it was really just an experiment 
I`d just like to know if I shouldn't use it ?
Here is a (bad) pic ........... if you can see what I mean


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## O'Henry (21/6/10)

I've never stored yeast in this way, but if I wanted to know if it was off, i'd drink some of the liquid. I've def done this before.
If it were me, i'd not worry, as yeast in suspension can look like your pic. Someone who maintains a yeast bank should be able to help you pretty quickly though, and better than I, no doubt.


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## Murdoch (21/6/10)

Thats actually quite clear now (I did say it was a bad pic)
It was very cloudy for a week or so after the 5th or so wash & was surprised to find it clear (ish) again


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## Bribie G (21/6/10)

I save the yeast on beer (from the last runny stuff out of Primary) in super-sanitised bottles, or in Schott bottles if it's only for a week or so. On pitching, if the beer tastes good then the yeast should be good (although often lager yeast is a bit stinky but in the lager yeast way). If have saved, say a stout, and want to pitch in a UK lighter coloured bitter I wash immediately before pitching. What advantage would there be in keeping washed yeast for several weeks? Just curious.


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## Murdoch (21/6/10)

BribieG said:


> What advantage would there be in keeping washed yeast for several weeks? Just curious.



Well I was basically following Chillers method as posted here :

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...t=0&start=0

I was intending to get some yeast samples so in the future I would use them to make a starter
I was under the impression its a common practice ?
Still on a steep learning curve & happy to have other ppls input


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## Maheel (21/6/10)

I was going to have a bash a farming off the yeast in my primary this weekend.

it's currently a 3kg ESB kit (pilsner) and bits, so what do i do about the chunky extras in the bottom?

do i give it a swirl, let settle a little, then scoop up some yeast as per Chiller's method, then wash em a bit more.

then use the yeast in a all grain BIAB experimental batch (my 1st)


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## haysie (21/6/10)

Having used slurries washed and unwashed, the results were not that good for me. In my search for a method more suited to me I came across this post from TidalPete,

TTBOMK starters from a slant are "0" generation & starters from a split unsmacked Wyeast smack pack are 1st generation. I am happy to be corrected on this however. 

My methods of getting the most from a Wyeast smack pack is to split the (Unsmacked) pack into 6 or so tubes, use them all until I farm the 2nd last one (2nd gen) thus leaving the last tube of 1st gen untouched in case anything goes wrong.

Also happy to be corrected on my belief that if you "smack" a Wyeast smack pack, make up a starter with it & then split the starter into "X" number of tubes or whatever you are just wasting a generation of yeast unnecessarily as the consequent yeast will be 2nd generation?

Not wanting to get into slants, I gave TP`s advice a shot, I split into 50 ml vials then start with about a 150-200 ml wort then step up from there, ale steps generally being one and lager 2 i.e 150ml > 1500 ml ale > 3500ml lager. Easy peasy, if making a similar beer when the first is done I will take a cup of that slurry and pitch but the days of stubbies and bottles of slurries are gone for me. Fresh 1st gen everytime.

Among a couple of brewers we are sharing, one vial of this for one vial of that, is and has really improved my processe`s and the cost saving is a bonus.

edit, clarify numbers , i split the 125ml pack into 5 vials of approx 20 ml each with about the same amount of sterile water, the remainder is then used for a starter for the beer i have ready/planned.


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## Bribie G (22/6/10)

Haysie, how long does it take to culture up one of those vials to a pitchable amount of starter?


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## MeLoveBeer (22/6/10)

haysie said:


> edit, clarify numbers , i split the 125ml pack into 5 vials of approx 20 ml each with about the same amount of sterile water, the remainder is then used for a starter for the beer i have ready/planned.



Thanks haysie, you've just made my mind up... I just acquired 20 x 30ml test tubes yesterday and was debating the best way to split up wyeast packs.

I'd heard/read somewhere that adding sterile water to the yeast in the test tube can be harmful; what's your experience been? I'd rather use the sterile water to remove the headspace from the test tube if its not going to be detrimental, but have been reluctant to give it a crack.


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## Murdoch (22/6/10)

Well I`m still not sure if its infected
I poured a bit of the water off the top
It had a fairly neutral taste ......... nothing bad tasting
The smell seems normal enough
Maybe its OK ? ........... its just that when it went cloudy for a while I was suss & the yeast is a darker colour than I expected
Maybe I`ll grow a starter to see what that looks, tastes & smells like


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## Nick JD (22/6/10)

haysie said:


> Not wanting to get into slants, I gave TP`s advice a shot, I split into 50 ml vials then start with about a 150-200 ml wort then step up from there, ale steps generally being one and lager 2 i.e 150ml > 1500 ml ale > 3500ml lager. Easy peasy, if making a similar beer when the first is done I will take a cup of that slurry and pitch but the days of stubbies and bottles of slurries are gone for me. Fresh 1st gen everytime.



How come it's not another generation everytime you step it up?


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## Wolfy (22/6/10)

Murdoch said:


> After 5 days or so they settled out again to where the water is quite clear
> But what I expect is the yeast (middle layer, between trub & water) looks to be a brownish colour
> Does this sound right, I think I read it was supposed to be a yellowish colour ?
> I`m not too concerned if it is off as it was really just an experiment
> ...


Yes it's a bad picture, but from what I can tell it looks mostly-normal and more of a cream colour than brown.
However, if you've correctly washed it a few times - as you indicated - there should be no trub, break or other unwanted material, the washing process should have left only yeast.

What strain of yeast are you washing? The yeast's flocculation properties may explain why it remains in suspension longer than you've noticed previously.

Typically healthy yeast is a very light brown or cream colour, however that too does depend a little on the yeast strain, I've found that some yeast is a little more on the darker side of cream colour.


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## Murdoch (22/6/10)

Wolfy, its only US-05
I was practicing with it so I could feel more confident when I move to liquid yeasts
Its the 1st time at washing yeast cake so I didn't have anything to compare it to
The washing removes the trub ? ......... well there you go I`ve learnt something else
I thought it was just to wash out the beer residue from the trub/yeast
The cream coloured layer at the bottom is what I thought the trub was
& there is a small layer of the light brown stuff on top of that under the water ........ this is what I presumed the yeast was
So your saying all the solids under the water is yeast cake?


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## haysie (22/6/10)

BribieG said:


> Haysie, how long does it take to culture up one of those vials to a pitchable amount of starter?



Bribie as mentioned ist step of 150-200 ml say 1030ish is 24-48 hrs, I dont decant this or place it on the stirrer, I am only interested in getting the yeast active the next step 1040-5 ish is the same 24-48 hrs on the stirplate for the most part of the first 24, then chill and decant, so a week in total.
If I was luittle more pedantic with temp control i.e 24deg, am sure you could spit one out same way in 3-4 days.


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## haysie (22/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> How come it's not another generation everytime you step it up?



The yeast counts are so small.


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## haysie (22/6/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Thanks haysie, you've just made my mind up... I just acquired 20 x 30ml test tubes yesterday and was debating the best way to split up wyeast packs.
> 
> I'd heard/read somewhere that adding sterile water to the yeast in the test tube can be harmful; what's your experience been? I'd rather use the sterile water to remove the headspace from the test tube if its not going to be detrimental, but have been reluctant to give it a crack.



Sorry bud I missed ya post,
I use water Arthur doesnt, no probs from either side. 

I place my vials in my dim sim steamer with lids loose and half fill the vials with previously boiled water as I always have a few litres of this on hand, I cook this up for about 45 minutes which in that time the water in the vial is boiling, flame out and place the lids loosely on. When things have cooled down I come back and sanitise the pack the scissors and my 10ml syringe I bought from the chemist for $3.50 it has a little blue extension tube that is good for getting to the bottom of the wyeast pack. I give the pack a really good swirl but not too hard, I dont want foam. Cut the pack and with the scissors as a grabber remove the unopen nutrient pack. I then divide and cap and fridge.


edit. apologies successive post`s. I forgot about the "quote" function


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## MeLoveBeer (22/6/10)

Greatly appreciated Haysie... I'm going to be splitting my first pack this weekend and you've certainly filled in a few unknowns for me.


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## Ross (22/6/10)

haysie said:


> , I split into 50 ml vials then start with about a 150-200 ml wort then step up from there, ale steps generally being one and lager 2 i.e 150ml > 1500 ml ale > 3500ml lager. Easy peasy, if making a similar beer when the first is done I will take a cup of that slurry and pitch but the days of stubbies and bottles of slurries are gone for me. Fresh 1st gen everytime.
> 
> Among a couple of brewers we are sharing, one vial of this for one vial of that, is and has really improved my processe`s and the cost saving is a bonus.
> 
> edit, clarify numbers , i split the 125ml pack into 5 vials of approx 20 ml each with about the same amount of sterile water, the remainder is then used for a starter for the beer i have ready/planned.




This is exactly how I used to do it before starting CraftBrewer. I found it by far the simplest & safest method.

Now I have the luxury of tax write off's so haven't built a starter in years B) 

Cheers Ross


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## MeLoveBeer (22/6/10)

Ross said:


> Now I have the luxury of tax write off's so haven't built a starter in years B)



Note to self... find an accountant that knows how to write my brewing addiction off on tax :beerbang:


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## Wolfy (22/6/10)

Murdoch said:


> The washing removes the trub ? ......... well there you go I`ve learnt something else
> I thought it was just to wash out the beer residue from the trub/yeast
> The cream coloured layer at the bottom is what I thought the trub was
> & there is a small layer of the light brown stuff on top of that under the water ........ this is what I presumed the yeast was
> So your saying all the solids under the water is yeast cake?


Washing yeast - in water - which is the method (I think) you used - is all about removing any 'foreign' matter so you are left with only yeast in your sample.
That's why you throw away anything that sinks quickly (most likely this is trub, hop debris, some break material and other grunk) and anything that floats because it too is unwanted gunk.
When washed successfully only the yeast will remain, and it will do so because it will stay in suspension longer than the heaver 'gunk' and not be decanted quickly like the floaty bits.

If you were acid-washing your yeast it would also be about removing any bacteria or other infectious material, but that's a different thing again.

Here is a photo of 3 different yeasts that I have 'washed' and stored in the fridge.
The yeast-cake was washed several times and then stored (for about 3 months now) in 3 or 4 sealed clear Corona bottles.




All the cream-sediment-stuff you can see under the water should be nothing but the yeast that is being saved.


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## Nick JD (22/6/10)

haysie said:


> The yeast counts are so small.



If yeast reproduces by budding, how does this make any difference? If there were only 100 people on earth, my great gramdma wouldn't be my sister. 

I confused.


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## Sammus (22/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> If yeast reproduces by budding, how does this make any difference? If there were only 100 people on earth, my great gramdma wouldn't be my sister.
> 
> I confused.



I think it's just convention. I see your point, but perhaps the definition of one generation changes when you're talking this microbiological stuff... Otherwise instead of using the simple 'each time you make a new starter from some old slurry, add 1 to the generation' thing we do now, each step in every starter we make would add billions onto the gen count, and we would have to do complex cell counting and a lot of assumption and reasoning, and still end up referring to your slant as being 7839293864738th generation or something, which just sounds silly.


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## haysie (22/6/10)

Sammus said:


> I think it's just convention. I see your point, but perhaps the definition of one generation changes when you're talking this microbiological stuff... Otherwise instead of using the simple 'each time you make a new starter from some old slurry, add 1 to the generation' thing we do now, each step in every starter we make would add billions onto the gen count, and we would have to do complex cell counting and a lot of assumption and reasoning, and still end up referring to your slant as being 7839293864738th generation or something, which just sounds silly.




Good post Sammus,, lets not confuse the word "starter" with _batch_/fermenter etc. Adding all the billions in the "batch" = mutation/new gen.


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## Wolfy (22/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> If yeast reproduces by budding, how does this make any difference? If there were only 100 people on earth, my great gramdma wouldn't be my sister.
> 
> I confused.


Because yeast can both mutate easily and also adapt to their conditions easily (by producing a specific set of enzimes for a specific wort profile).
This is important in a home-brew type situation because unlike (traditional) commercial breweries - where they use the same yeast in the same wort over and over and over again (which is how different yeast strains were developed in the first place) - as home brewers we usually use the yeast in different situations/wort.
So if you want to be sure that your yeast remains 'true to profile' as much as possible, you want to ensure it has as little chance to grow, propagate, mutate and adapt as possible.
The number of the generation (or how they are numbered) is irrelevant, what is important is what chances the yeast have had to change, mutate and adapt to specific conditions.
Yeast directly out of the packet is most likely 'true to profile' however once you start to grow them - even in a starter - the yeast will start to change and adapt to it's new conditions.
So the ideal time to store/slant your yeast is directly from the pack, rather than from a starter or left-over trub - it's not the generation number that matters it's the conditions that the yeast has been subjected and adapted to, and the chance they have had to mutate and change.


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## jakub76 (22/6/10)

I reuse almost all of my yeast in a very similar way to what OP has described. I don't bother splitting my pack into heaps of cultures, it's a great idea but seems a little too much like work. 


> I "washed" it about 5-6 times in cooled pre-boiled water


I generally only need to wash twice, also make sure you decant the first lot after 10-15 minutes to get all of the good yeasties still in suspension off the yukky trub chunks that have settled.

I have sometimes noticed a very thin darker layer form on top of the yeast where it is exposed to the water after some weeks. I have not had any ill effects from this, in fact I just bought a new wlp vial today that showed the same symptoms.


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## Sammus (22/6/10)

haysie said:


> Good post Sammus,, lets not confuse the word "starter" with _batch_/fermenter etc. Adding all the billions in the "batch" = mutation/new gen.






Wolfy said:


> Because yeast can both mutate easily and also adapt to their conditions easily (by producing a specific set of enzimes for a specific wort profile).
> This is important in a home-brew type situation because unlike (traditional) commercial breweries - where they use the same yeast in the same wort over and over and over again (which is how different yeast strains were developed in the first place) - as home brewers we usually use the yeast in different situations/wort.
> So if you want to be sure that your yeast remains 'true to profile' as much as possible, you want to ensure it has as little chance to grow, propagate, mutate and adapt as possible.
> The number of the generation (or how they are numbered) is irrelevant, what is important is what chances the yeast have had to change, mutate and adapt to specific conditions.
> ...




better post


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## Benniee (22/6/10)

There are some good pictures of washed/rinsed yeast in this thread. I'd like the brewers who rinsed this to possible give us a blow-by-blow of their process. I know a lot of people refer to "chiller's" method, but I'd really like the guys who are having sucess with this to get detailed with respect to temperatures, volumes collected, thickness of solution.

I've had a couple of goes at yeast rinsing, and while the re-pitch has always been successful, I've never had nice clean looking yeast like some of the pics in this thread. Obviously pitching a little bit of trub won't destroy a beer - but I'd like to get my process down to the point where I could rinse yeast as well as Wolfy's pics show.

The way I've gone about it is....
1. Boil around 3L of water for around 5 mins - place in a sanatised conatiner to cool before use (usually overnight).
2. Keg/bottle my beer - draining as much beer off the yeast cake as I can (usually tip the fermenter to get the last bit off).
3. Pour in about 1.5L of my room-temperature pre-boiled water and swirl the fermenter until all of the yeast cake (and trub) are in solution
4. Run off this yeasty/truby solution through the fermenter tap into a sanatised jar/jug. I usually end up with around 2 - 2.5L collected.
5. Leave this jar/jug to settle for around 10-15 mins. 
6. Decant off the top 2/3 of the liquid into another sanatised container. Top up with pre-boiled water at room temp. Shake to aggitate and repeat the 10-15 min settling process.

Now what I find is that the yeast cake I collect from the fermenter is so thick that I don't really get any type of settling/separation taking place at step 5. If I was doing this for a lager yeast then the temperature of the yeast slurry may have been around 1 degree after crash chilling - so everything just wants to settle out under a very thin layer of liquid (usually a mix of beer and the water I've added to the fermenter). If I leave it overnight it settles out to be roughly 50/50 solids to liquid and I can clearly see bits and pieces of trub and break material mixed throughout the "solids" layer. 

I wish I had some pics to help illustrate what I mean. I'll definitely take some next time I'm attempting this.

So where should I start improving my process? Letting the yeast slurry warm up to room temp before attempting to rinse? Collecting less yeast cake from the fermenter initially to keep the mixture a little thinner.

Benniee


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## ekul (22/6/10)

How many times can you 're-use' yeast before it starts giving off flavours? I've recently discovered that if i save a stubbie of trub from the bottom of the fermenter i can use that to start my next brew. I've done this with nottingham and US05. Whilst they aren't expensive yeasts, at $5 per brew it does add up (but so worth it!).


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## marksy (22/6/10)

Hey mate i just tried my first liquid yeast the other week. After talking with a mate he suggested I get a 2L bottle with about 200g of powdered malt and fill it up with clean water, malt and the yeast. After it does it thing for a day or 2 get 5 longys and put about 200ml in each, cap and store in the fridge. With the remaining 1L toss that into the brew you just made.

So now i have made 2 more brews and used 2 of the longys. (1each brew).

Same process as before pretty much but i used about 1L of water, roughly same amount of malt and got the malty water and yeast from longy to the room temp. As malty water was boiled and longy was cold. Toss the longy in and put some glad wrap over the top of 2L bottle and poke a pin hole in it. I also used a elastic band to hold the glad wrap around the neck. Left them for a day or 2 and then added to my brew after i cold it down off the stove. It took about 1day for it to start going on both of them. Seems so far to be working well. 

Ive never tried using the left overs from primary but i did bottle some the other week and again mate told me to do it the same way. 
In the end it works out i can make 6brews from the $20 liquid yeast vial.

Heaps of different ways to do it but, this is just what my mate suggested i do. Working so far. 

marksy


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## Nick JD (22/6/10)

Wolfy said:


> ...it's not the generation number that matters it's the conditions that the yeast has been subjected and adapted to, and the chance they have had to mutate and change.



That's what I was after. Thanks.

EDIT: which raises another question - do the yeast do a "survey" on available sugaz and breed to a level that will match those sugaz?


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## Wolfy (22/6/10)

Benniee said:


> I'd really like the guys who are having sucess with this to get detailed with respect to temperatures, volumes collected, thickness of solution.
> ...
> I've had a couple of goes at yeast rinsing, and while the re-pitch has always been successful, I've never had nice clean looking yeast like some of the pics in this thread. Obviously pitching a little bit of trub won't destroy a beer - but I'd like to get my process down to the point where I could rinse yeast as well as Wolfy's pics show.


I make slants for my yeast whenever I get a new smack pack, vial or slant, so I've only tried 'washing' the slurry 3 times (as the picture shows).
Due to possible mutations and changes in the yeast, my general preference is to re-culture yeast from one of the early-generaton slants where possible.

What you'll note is that each bottle in the picture has a different amount of yeast 'saved', this is despite the fact that each time I started with about 1 cup of slurry.
The first time I exactly followed the procedures outlined in the other thread, and that's the bottle in the middle of the picture with the least amount of yeast (US-05).
However, I felt I was tipping lots of the viable and quick settling yeast away.
So I adjusted my procedure (as per below) so that there is much more yeast left the bottle on the left in the picture (Wy-1968).

After boiling and cooling water, I mixed about 1L with about 1 cup of the yeast slurry and let it settle for about 15 mins - this should be enough time for any 'foreign' matter to settle to the bottom but most of the yeast to remain in suspension, so I decanted everything except for the stuff that sunk to the bottom which I tipped.
Then I split the remaining slurry into 2 flasks and added about 500ml cooled boiled water to each, and shook vigorously.
Checking the solution every 5-10mins I then decanted and discarded the 'dirty' liquid reaming ontop once the majority of yeast appeared to have settled out.
I repeated this procedure 2-3 more times, until the top-liquid was clear, before splitting the remaining yeast/liquid into 2 subbies each (a total of 4 stubbies).

I have no idea if this procedure is good/bad/other, but it does seem to result in a larger quantity of clean yeast - which is really the point of the procedure.
The first step gets rid of anything that sinks quickly like hop matter, gelatin (from fininings) or similar gunk, while the additional steps clean up what is remaining while also retaining much of the quick flocculating yeast (a property I appreciate).
In theory the yeast should start to go a darker/brown colour as it gets older and dies, so far they have been stored in the fridge like that for about 3-4 months with no noticeable changes.


Nick JD said:


> EDIT: which raises another question - do the yeast do a "survey" on available sugaz and breed to a level that will match those sugaz?


JP in "How to Brew" suggests that yeast produce a specific set of enzymes for a particular wort profile - so I guess the answer is 'yes' - but I presume the full answer is much more complicated than that.


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## Sammus (22/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> That's what I was after. Thanks.
> 
> EDIT: which raises another question - do the yeast do a "survey" on available sugaz and breed to a level that will match those sugaz?



Pretty sure it's called natural selection  you're not a creationist are you?


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## Nick JD (23/6/10)

Sammus said:


> Pretty sure it's called natural selection  you're not a creationist are you?



I think you'll find that natural selection is quite different to what I was asking. 

I was wondering what the cues are that tell the yeast population to stop reproducing.


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## felten (23/6/10)

I've heard jamil/jp mention that the yeast know the quantities of yeast/sugar in their surroundings. BTW nick, Jamil has a yeast book coming out some time in the future you would probably be interested in


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## MHB (23/6/10)

When yeast runs out of any one of the nutrients it requires to reproduce it will switch from aerobic to anaerobic fermentation. Those nutrients include Oxygen, Nitrogen in the form of Amines, Lipids and fatty acids. In a "Perfect Wort" it would consume all the O2 and lipids and have reduced the FAN (free Amino Nitrogen) content to the target level at the same time, then change over to making ethanol.

Reintroducing enough nutrients to the environment and the yeast will switch back to making yeast for want of a better answer you could regard that as one generation of the culture, i.e. the cycle through reproduction anaerobic and back to reproduction.

MHB


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## Effect (23/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> I was wondering what the cues are that tell the yeast population to stop reproducing.




maybe, just maybe this might have something to do with it...


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## Benniee (23/6/10)

Wolfy said:


> After boiling and cooling water, I mixed about 1L with about 1 cup of the yeast slurry and let it settle for about 15 mins - this should be enough time for any 'foreign' matter to settle to the bottom but most of the yeast to remain in suspension, so I decanted everything except for the stuff that sunk to the bottom which I tipped.
> Then I split the remaining slurry into 2 flasks and added about 500ml cooled boiled water to each, and shook vigorously.
> Checking the solution every 5-10mins I then decanted and discarded the 'dirty' liquid reaming ontop once the majority of yeast appeared to have settled out.
> I repeated this procedure 2-3 more times, until the top-liquid was clear, before splitting the remaining yeast/liquid into 2 subbies each (a total of 4 stubbies).



Thanks for the response Wolfy - very helpful. With 1 cup of slurry to 1L of clean water it sounds like you start with a much "thinner" mix that I have been using, and that's a contributing factor in my yeast and trub not separating very effectively. In the times I've attempted rinsing the yeast I've been trying to get 2 pitches of yeast from the one yeast cake (using the MrMalty pitching rate calculator as a guide). I've been giving this a shot mostly to see what sort of truth there is to the "the yeast gets better after 2 to 3 re-pitches" story. I keep slants too, and usually step up gradually to a pitching quantity - but when brewing a lager this can take a fair amount of time.

Benniee


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## Murdoch (23/6/10)

Thanks for those pics Wolfy
As I was looking at them I thought the centre one looked similar to my samples as it appears to have a slight layer of a darker material between the creamish solids & the clear water
Then I read in a later post that the centre one was US-05 which is what I have

I too seemed have the problem with the 1st 10-15 settling then decanting the yeasty liquid
I`ve tried a few times & its seems one thick mixture with little to no initial separating
In the end I just kept the whole bottle & washed as per rest of the procedure
After a couple of days it seemed to settle into 3 distinct zones, a very hard (almost rubber like) cake on the bottom, a thinner layer but still slurry on top of that (& a slighter lighter colour), then the clear water on top.
Now I may have been wrong but I presumed the very hard layer of cake at the bottom would be trub & the softer slurry layer on top was the yeast cake.
I decanted the water layer, then poured the slurry I presumed was yeast cake into another sterile jar then discarded the hard bottom layer
I then split what I presumed was yeast cake into 6 other sterile jars then topped up with cooled boiled water
& thats a pic of one in my 1st post

From what I`ve now read & heard I`m starting to think it may be a better/easier method by just catching the yeast cake slurry direct from the fermenter & storing in sterile jars the appropriate size for repitching into another brew (Mr Malty says I need about 500 ml for a 46L batch at 1048) & storing in fridge letting it sit under the beer that separates.
Then taste test the beer prior to use to determine if its still OK,
Decant the beer level & just pitch that slurry into a brew 
Maybe using a small starter to just "prove" the yeast if its getting a bit old ? (also then discarding the fermented liquor & pitching the slurry)

I like the splitting smack packs idea
Going to try that, grow a starter then reclaim a few 500ml samples of slurry from the 1st few generations
Thanks for the feedback, advice & pics ......... (gotta love the pics)


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## Benniee (23/6/10)

Murdoch said:


> From what I`ve now read & heard I`m starting to think it may be a better/easier method by just catching the yeast cake slurry direct from the fermenter & storing in sterile jars the appropriate size for repitching into another brew (Mr Malty says I need about 500 ml for a 46L batch at 1048) & storing in fridge letting it sit under the beer that separates.
> Then taste test the beer prior to use to determine if its still OK,
> Decant the beer level & just pitch that slurry into a brew
> Maybe using a small starter to just "prove" the yeast if its getting a bit old ? (also then discarding the fermented liquor & pitching the slurry)



I guess it comes down to a decision of what is an "ok practice" and what is "best practice". There are a couple of podcasts floating around about yeast re-pitching and yeast washing/rinsing - I've listened to a couple from the Brewing Network guys. My understanding is that "washing" is reducing the pH of the solution for a period of time to knock down the population of bacteria somewhat - and "rinsing" is the procedure outlined here.

I have never attempted "washing", and hopefully the next time I attempt "rinsing" I'll have a little more success by starting out with a thinner mix of yeast cake and water.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one struggling to get good separation though 

Benniee


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## MHB (23/6/10)

I notice Wolfy mentioned Acid Washing, I think if you were going to go to the trouble of washing then the added advantages of acid washing would be worth the extra work.

This is a pretty good well thought out how to Acid Washing Oz Craftbrewer .org

MHB


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## Nick JD (23/6/10)

MHB said:


> ...one generation of the culture, i.e. the cycle through reproduction anaerobic and back to reproduction.



Thanks, that was what I was trying to get my head around. 

Each "step up" of a starter is a "generation".


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## Benniee (8/7/10)

Ok - I've managed to snap off a few pictures of my rinsing attempts, and I'm hoping some of the more experienced guys here can chip in with their 2c. Rather than start another thread I'll just continue this one going - yeast harvesting seems to be a hot subject at present.

As a little background - this is a lager yeast strain, and I'm pretty careful with my transfers into my fermenter. I may get a little break material in there, but not a heap.

First up - Mix up about 200mL of slurry with 500mL water. Shaken hard for about 30 seconds.





I don't really get a nice homogonous liquid. There appears to be clumps floating around in it and I'm not sure if they are yeast clumps or clumps of trub. There are the smaller dark flecks visible that sink like a stone. I've attached a closeup of the clumps.




Next up - about 3 minutes in. Some separation starting to occur.



Then about 5 minutes in. A definite separation line now in the mix.



And then at around 8 minutes in. Things appear to be starting to compact a little bit.



And now at 10 minutes. In this one I'm starting to see the thin layer of yeast settling out on top of the trub.



Here's a closeup.




Ok - so I have a few question about the process. 

First off - if I were to harvest off the liquid from what I think is the trub material that settles quickly I'll be left with a farily small quantity of yeast. I was under the belief that there should be plenty of yeast for a couple of pitches when harvesting. I don't think I'd even get a single pitch out of it (going from the MrMalty calc).

Secondly - the material that settles out really quickly looks creamy in colour - which makes me think it's yeast. If this were yeast then I would be getting about 2-3 pitches of yeast from the harvest, but what's confusing me here is that is settles out so quickly. Do I just need to try and break the yeast away from the trub by shaking more agressively or something?

I've put the mix in the fridge at the moment (I haven't decanted anything off the top) to try and get a clearer picture of what's going on. If I get three clear layers after a while I'll post up some more pics.

In the meantime I'm open to comments, suggestions, ideas. 

Benniee


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## Wolfy (8/7/10)

Benniee said:


> In the meantime I'm open to comments, suggestions, ideas.


If it was me, the first step I'd take is to decant the mixture as soon as you get the first separation the "_dark flecks visible that sink like a stone_", keep the liquid ontop and throw away the stuff that sinks fast, most likely this is hop material or other similar impurities.
Then I'd look to keep the milky/tan coloured layer you have called 'trub' and I'd discard the remaining liquid before the darker brown coloured stuff you called 'yeast' settles, since I'd consider that to be dead yeast cells and other impurities.
Once that is done I'd wash it a few more times until the liquid is clear and then I'd store it.

I'm no expert - so I'd like to hear what other people say - but I'd suggest that most of the 'stuff' you have there; the thick middle layer of milky/tan coloured 'stuff' is the yeast you wish to save and repitch - which means that you do have a significant amount of it.


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## jakub76 (8/7/10)

I think Wolfy is spot on. Your small dark flecks are your trub. Once they settle decant the liquid (with yeast still in suspension). All that light-tan coloured layer is your yeast. 
The only other thing I would suggest is that you don't need to shake the hell out of it, just swirl it enough to separate the chunks of yeast and put it all into suspension.

EDIT: look at the underside of the jar - you'll see the darker chunks - that's the trub you want to remove.


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## Ronin (8/7/10)

Benniee said:


> In the meantime I'm open to comments, suggestions, ideas.
> 
> Benniee



Hey Benniee,

my professional opinion (and I'm a microbiologist not a brewer) is that all the stuff in the second photo (the closeup) is the trub. I've grown brewing yeast in my lab so I know what it looks like in suspension and it takes much longer than 5 minutes to settle. More like overnight (at least). Think about how long it takes a beer to clear.

From you photos, I would decant the yeast suspension off the trub at about 8 minutes, put the supernatant (the stuff you decant off) in the fridge overnight to settle. Judging by the turbidity of the suspension at 8 minutes, you still have heaps of yeast floating around in the suspension. 

I'd be more inclined to say you are just starting to see the yeast settle at 10 minutes, but there is a lot more to come out of suspension. If you want to play it safe, just keep the sediment too.

Happy to be corrected though.

James


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## Wolfy (8/7/10)

Ronin said:


> my professional opinion (and I'm a microbiologist not a brewer) is that all the stuff in the second photo (the closeup) is the trub. I've grown brewing yeast in my lab so I know what it looks like in suspension and it takes much longer than 5 minutes to settle. More like overnight (at least). Think about how long it takes a beer to clear.
> ....
> Happy to be corrected though.


The various beer brewing starters I have made (very simple LDME or saved-wort, no hops, all break material previously filtered), leads me to believe differently than you do, but I only have that experience to go by, not any microbiology training. The 'yeast' that is grown in these starters, looks just like what the majority of 'stuff' in the above pictures looks like - as I suggested earlier. In addition, the yeast saved directly after splitting a Wyeast smack-pack also looks the same (there are pictures of that in another thread).

As for how long it takes to settle, I've had some yeast (Wy1968) flocculate out and try to settle while the starter was still on the stir plate! (Someone else has posted similar pictures and videos on here of exactly that). Turn the stir plate off and the vast majority of the yeast has settled within minutes, obviously this is not the case with all yeast, but with starters and yeast that has fully fermented out, sometimes I have found it settles quickly.


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## Screwtop (8/7/10)

MHB said:


> When yeast runs out of any one of the nutrients it requires to reproduce it will switch from aerobic to anaerobic fermentation. Those nutrients include Oxygen, Nitrogen in the form of Amines, Lipids and fatty acids. In a "Perfect Wort" it would consume all the O2 and lipids and have reduced the FAN (free Amino Nitrogen) content to the target level at the same time, then change over to making ethanol.
> 
> Reintroducing enough nutrients to the environment and the yeast will switch back to making yeast for want of a better answer you could regard that as one generation of the culture, i.e. the cycle through reproduction anaerobic and back to reproduction.
> 
> MHB




Don't you tire of explaining this stuff????  

Screwy


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## haysie (8/7/10)

A yeast forum would be way easier, ATM they come under kits n all grain and everything in between.... FAAAAAARK I hate yeast threads.


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## Ronin (8/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> The various beer brewing starters I have made (very simple LDME or saved-wort, no hops, all break material previously filtered), leads me to believe differently than you do, but I only have that experience to go by, not any microbiology training. The 'yeast' that is grown in these starters, looks just like what the majority of 'stuff' in the above pictures looks like - as I suggested earlier. In addition, the yeast saved directly after splitting a Wyeast smack-pack also looks the same (there are pictures of that in another thread).
> 
> As for how long it takes to settle, I've had some yeast (Wy1968) flocculate out and try to settle while the starter was still on the stir plate! (Someone else has posted similar pictures and videos on here of exactly that). Turn the stir plate off and the vast majority of the yeast has settled within minutes, obviously this is not the case with all yeast, but with starters and yeast that has fully fermented out, sometimes I have found it settles quickly.



I've never seen yeast behave like that in broth, they always look like a creamy, cloudy suspension, never with visible flocs. Even Wy1496 which is one of the faster flocculators I've ever used. And I've never had a Wyeast smack pack look like that either, it's always a nice creamy yeast suspension that settles out in one layer, not two.

A pellet of yeast that has formed flocs will look no different from yeast that is in a single cell suspension and settled slowly. Cells are cells. The fact that there are two layers in this suspension, and that the suspension is still very turbid suggests that most are yeast cells still in suspension. 

If the yeast is settling out first, the question becomes what's the top layer? I really do think the top thin layer is the yeast just beginning to settle out.

I just have my microbiol training and some homebrewing under my belt at the moment, not up t the yeast section at uni yet. I very well could be wrong. All I'm saying is that in the laboratory and in my experience at home, yeast in suspension looks like what's still in suspension in his photos.

I still say decant it off and keep the "trub" and the "yeast". That way if I'm wrong and no more yeast settle out from the supernatant over the next day or two you still have your yeast.

Can't go wrong.

James

EDIT : Thought this might help. It's a bottle of only break material, there is no yeast in here






To me it looks the same as what you are seeing in picture 2


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## Benniee (8/7/10)

Thanks for the replies guys. 

I should have mentioned that I have rinsed yeast in the past and not really had this problem - but they were all ale yeasts and this is a lager yeast. I wasn't sure if the strain of yeast would make a difference. Also - the temperature of the slurry is around 1-2 degrees - temperature of the water added is room temp (which today was probably around 15 degrees)



Ronin said:


> If the yeast is settling out first, the question becomes what's the top layer? I really do think the top thin layer is the yeast just beginning to settle out.



I was asking myself the same thing. The interesting thing about this was that I had a small jar with this strain of yeast in it in the fridge. It was a 200mL starter stepped up from a 20mL starter (which was stepped up from a slant). I ended up not needing the yeast so I put it in the fridge for storage. The starter was very clean with no break material in it, and it had a nice creamy layer of yeast on the bottom. If I shake this up then I get a very similar separation situation happenning. Within 5 minutes or so I have a clear line of creamy looking material settling out with some cloudy liquid on top. And the material in suspension seems to form clumps just like I'm seeing in the larger sample.

I've taken another pic of the jar - it's been in the fridge for about 7 or so hours now. Everything seems to have compacted down to a smaller volume than what was there previously.





There now appears to be a thin layer of something settled out top top of the brownish layer that settled out at around 10 mins. So, going from the bottom, what I've ended up with is cream coloured (fairly thick), brown (fairly thin), cream (fairly thin), cloudy liquid. :blink: Not what I was expecting.

Is it possible that I'm not breaking up the yeast enough during my initial shaking to separate it enough from any trub.

The colour of what is settling out first is another thing that's throwing me - it really does have the colour of yeast.

On an earlier attempt at this I decanted the liquid only and ended up with this.



Not a lot of yeast from what was the slurry from 12L (half a 24L beer). Or is it? It would be lucky to be 50mL of yeast solids here - and if I'm looking to pitch into 25L of lager a rough number I'd be looking for here would be around 250mL.

Benniee


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## Wolfy (8/7/10)

Ronin said:


> I've never seen yeast behave like that in broth, they always look like a creamy, cloudy suspension, never with visible flocs. Even Wy1496 which is one of the faster flocculators I've ever used. And I've never had a Wyeast smack pack look like that either, it's always a nice creamy yeast suspension that settles out in one layer, not two.
> 
> A pellet of yeast that has formed flocs will look no different from yeast that is in a single cell suspension and settled slowly. Cells are cells. The fact that there are two layers in this suspension, and that the suspension is still very turbid suggests that most are yeast cells still in suspension.
> 
> ...


Here is the thread (with pictures) about 1968 flocculating while still on a stir plate: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=32331
What you'll note there is that they are starters so there is NO break material, no hops, no other debris, what you see clumping together is the highly flocculant yeast.
This is exactly what I see - often - when letting 1968 starters ferment for about 24 hours, the yeast is so flocculant that it clumps while it's still being stirred, turn the stir plate off and it settles and clears very quickly.
Yes it looks much the same as the picture you showed, but in this case its yeast not break material (which does look much the same).

Here is Tony's recent thread about splitting Wyeast packs: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...ic=45866&hl
What you'll notice in the pictures is a creamy cloudy suspension that settles to a thick layer of yeast on the bottom of the tubes - a layer which - to me - looks exactly like what is posted above.
In this case the sample has come directly from a smack-pack so there is no break/foreign material, all the 'stuff' that has settled there is yeast.

And here is a picture from one of Screwtops posts:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=21221
In this case his starter has been allowed to settle out, but the entire creamy/brown colour layer on the bottom is the yeast and not break or other material.
Again it looks virtually identical to the 'thick' layer shown above.

In the pictures above, there is no doubt still some yeast in suspension (in the latter pictures), but I'd suggest that the vast majority of it has already settled out, and what's left in suspension can be discarded, as for the top layer being darker, again I'd suggest that is the dead/dying yeast cells rather than the healthy yeast you wish to harvest.



Benniee said:


> I was asking myself the same thing. The interesting thing about this was that I had a small jar with this strain of yeast in it in the fridge. It was a 200mL starter stepped up from a 20mL starter (which was stepped up from a slant). I ended up not needing the yeast so I put it in the fridge for storage. The starter was very clean with no break material in it, and it had a nice creamy layer of yeast on the bottom. If I shake this up then I get a very similar separation situation happenning. Within 5 minutes or so I have a clear line of creamy looking material settling out with some cloudy liquid on top. And the material in suspension seems to form clumps just like I'm seeing in the larger sample.


How old is the stored-starter?
Is it possible that the separation of layers is due to some of the yeast being dead or dying, since yeast does get darker when it dies?


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## Ronin (8/7/10)

Benniee said:


> On an earlier attempt at this I decanted the liquid only and ended up with this.
> View attachment 39279
> 
> 
> ...



As a microbiologist, that looks like a purer yeast pellet to me. I really do think that the stuff you are seeing settle out first is break. It looks too similar to the break material in my photo to be yeast.

When was the slurry taken from the beer? Remember it may take some time for the yeast to settle out of a finished beer, so if you take the slurry as soon as fermentation has finished there will still be a significant number of yeast still in the beer too.


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## Benniee (8/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> How old is the stored-starter?
> Is it possible that the separation of layers is due to some of the yeast being dead or dying, since yeast does get darker when it dies?



The "old" starter is only about 2 weeks old. Been stored in the fridge the whole time. There is probably some dead cells in there now, but it didn't have the brown, dusty look that dead cells tend to get. It is still nice and creamy in colour.

Benniee


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## Ronin (8/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> Here is the thread (with pictures) about 1968 flocculating while still on a stir plate: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=32331
> What you'll note there is that they are starters so there is NO break material, no hops, no other debris, what you see clumping together is the highly flocculant yeast.
> This is exactly what I see - often - when letting 1968 starters ferment for about 24 hours, the yeast is so flocculant that it clumps while it's still being stirred, turn the stir plate off and it settles and clears very quickly.
> Yes it looks much the same as the picture you showed, but in this case its yeast not break material (which does look much the same).



I think certain ale yeasts behave quite differently to lager yeast. What you have posted here is not 'normal' behavior for yeasts and I don't think should be used as the yardstick for comparing other yeast to. I still think what Benniee is seeing settle out first is break. Especially considering that the photo Benniee posted of his decanted pellet looks exactly like pure yeast.



Wolfy said:


> Here is Tony's recent thread about splitting Wyeast packs: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...ic=45866&hl
> What you'll notice in the pictures is a creamy cloudy suspension that settles to a thick layer of yeast on the bottom of the tubes - a layer which - to me - looks exactly like what is posted above.
> In this case the sample has come directly from a smack-pack so there is no break/foreign material, all the 'stuff' that has settled there is yeast.



Sorry, have to disagree. The pellets there look like a homogeneous suspension where the yeast that are settling first are forming a pellet, and the loose layer on top has yet to pellet completely. Give it a few more hours/ a day and that will look like a single pellet. That is not what Benniee is getting, he's getting a loose layer of material settling first, then the yeast layer setting on top of that. When he decanted it of he got something that looks exactly like your next example.



Wolfy said:


> And here is a picture from one of Screwtops posts:
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=21221
> In this case his starter has been allowed to settle out, but the entire creamy/brown colour layer on the bottom is the yeast and not break or other material.
> Again it looks virtually identical to the 'thick' layer shown above.



that is exactly what a pure yeast pellet looks like, and I can guarantee that it would not have looked like the flocs that Benniee was getting when it was in suspension. Nor does it look like there are 2 layers like Benniee, Screwtop is getting a single homogenous yeast layer, which is what Benniee got after he decanted the yeast off the break.



Wolfy said:


> In the pictures above, there is no doubt still some yeast in suspension (in the latter pictures), but I'd suggest that the vast majority of it has already settled out, and what's left in suspension can be discarded, as for the top layer being darker, again I'd suggest that is the dead/dying yeast cells rather than the healthy yeast you wish to harvest.



Again, have to respectfully disagree. Dead yeast will settle out of solution faster than live yeast. I've yet to reach the yeast unit of the Brewing Diploma I'm doing so i'm happy to be corrected if you can cite a reference, but every microorganism that I've used in the last 15 years has behaved that way. I'll see if I can check some of the brewing texts I get access to through the university.

EDIT: Sorry I did find it. It's in the book Brewing Yeast Fermentation Performance. Basically the older the cell, the faster it flocculates.

Cheers,

James


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## jakub76 (8/7/10)

Dude it's mostly yeast, there's very little trub in your photos. I almost always harvest my yeast, both ale and lager and mine look very similar to your photos.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38125
Keep in mind that the yeast is dormant, there's nothing left to eat so it'll flocc and settle pretty quick especially given that you're rousing it out of the fridge. I also get a slightly darker layer on top of my yeast, normally it forms on mine after a few days/weeks in contact with the water. I have little doubt that it's dead yeast, in your case you might be getting more because you're shocking it with a big temperature change and then your physically shaking the bejezus out of it. Even so it's still not a huge amount so I wouldn't worry too much, just be kind to it next time. If you decant and discard the liquid while there's still yeast in suspension then your throwing away the yeast that attenuates most (thin lighter coloured layer in your last post) - when it comes time to re-use you'll want them too.

To suggest that the majority of your seddiment is trub seems pretty ridiculous when you consider the proportions, 200ml yeast cake(including some trub) 500ml water - there's no chance in the world that there's going to be 95% trub and 5% yeast.


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## Ronin (8/7/10)

jakub76 said:


> If you decant and discard the liquid while there's still yeast in suspension then your throwing away the yeast that attenuates most (thin lighter coloured layer in your last post) - when it comes time to re-use you'll want them too.
> 
> To suggest that the majority of your seddiment is trub seems pretty ridiculous when you consider the proportions, 200ml yeast cake(including some trub) 500ml water - there's no chance in the world that there's going to be 95% trub and 5% yeast.
> View attachment 39280



My point exactly. You want the healthy cells that remain in suspension for longer, not the aged/dead cells that floc out quickly.

EDIT: And sorry, it's not ridiculous when you consider the density of the break material. The break may only be a small portion of what you harvest, but it takes up a larger volume, which is why you have to leave so much behind. The yeast form a compact sediment whereas the trub doesn't. By weight it's much smaller, by volume it's much larger.

Here are some examples of what is trub/what is yeast:

Look at the last post:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-was...vs-trub-185369/

Look at the diagram about halfway down:

http://hbd.org/carboy/yeast_washing.htm

Read the caption of the second photo:

http://www.donosborn.com/homebrew/yeast_wa..._wyeast_way.htm

Look where the yeast settle:

http://home.comcast.net/~wnevits/wizards/y...shing_rev_5.pdf

Here's how Chiller does it on this forum, note that he decants the yeast from off the top of the trub

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=3697

Look at figure 4, it is what you are seeing Benniee. The yeast is the top layer. Figure 6 is what you want

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2010/01/30/yeast-washing-101/

That last one was probably the best example. This was from a simple google search.

Benniee, what you are seeing is trub. Take the top layer.

James


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## Thirsty Boy (9/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> Thanks, that was what I was trying to get my head around.
> 
> Each "step up" of a starter is a "generation".



Depends on _how_ you "step" your starters. Most people probably aren't letting the yeast go through their full cycle before they step up. You would let them grow to close to maximum cell density and before they ran out of nutrients and started to go into wind down mode, re-pitch into a larger volume of wort while they were still actively growing... so really its just stretching out the first generation. If you were to fully ferment one step, decant and re-pitch into a new volume of wort - then I'd go along with each step being a new generation.

Generations are a really fuzzy and silly way to look at it anyway... the cells bud and grow constantly while fermenting.. Probably reproducing 3-5 times in a normal fermentation. So each 1st generation cell buds say 4 times, the second generation cells bud themselves 3 times, 3rd gen bud twice etc etc etc - and the older cells are dying off as you go along... so any yeast recovered from a complete fermentation is going to be a total mix of old, young and inbetween "generations"

So the term as we use it - just means as previously pointed out. "How many times has this yeast sample been through a complete fermentation cycle since I pitched a fresh culture?"

--- // ---

Washing yeast is a bit of an "art" as they all behave a bit differently - some stay smooth and creamy, some are powdery and stay in suspension for ever, some go all clumpy and lumpy... you just have to know how each one behaves. One of the reasons I think its a bit hard to bother with - I prefer to start with fresh each time (I grow up from slants) or re-pitch slurry within a short timeframe. Worth while if you mainly use the same yeast all the time though and have a chance to learn how it behaves when washed.

*Acid washing* - give it a shot if you think you can do it properly... but don't do it if you are going to store the yeast. You want fresh yeast from a fermentation, and you want to pitch it immediately after you acid wash it.... The viability of acid washed yeast drops off really really fast. Acid washing isn't for storage stability - it's for bacteria reduction.

TB


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## Wolfy (9/7/10)

Ronin said:


> ...
> Here are some examples of what is trub/what is yeast:
> ...
> That last one was probably the best example. This was from a simple google search.


I don't need a Google search if I can just open the fridge:




I'm quite sure that what is saved is clean-water-washed viable yeast and not trub, break material or anything else.

Those samples were 'saved' using the information in chiller's post and the procedure I followed is virtually identical to _every _link posed.
It is also what I described earlier in this thread:
Mix an amount of yeast-cake from the fermenter with cooled boiled water
Wait sufficient time for any break material, hop debris, trub or other unwanted 'stuff' to stink to the bottom and discard, saving the creamy yeast-suspension ontop.
(_Note: 'sufficient time' as outlined in the links and from my own experience is usually in the order of 10-30mins, not overnight_)
(Optional step, omitted in some of the links provided) 
Wash the yeast suspension several times until the water remains clear.

The only difference between the various photographs and procedures linked and to my own experience is that - I find for my setup (so I extended this assumption to my suggestions for the OP) - is that I notice a significant amount less break material, hop debris, trub or other unwanted 'stuff' in samples I collect from my fermenter. These differences are most likely due to procedure, ingredient and recipe differences, more than what yeast or break or trub looks like. Perhaps the differences are due to the fact I use Whirlfloc and a CFC so possibly get much I get less break material into the fermenter, maybe Australian grains create less unwanted-trub, in at least some of the examples, there seems to be a significant amount of hop-pellet debris, possibly caused by inadequate filtering from the kettle or dry hopping. However, I assumed that if the OP is using similar recipe, ingredients and procedures as myself then the results would be much the same.



Thirsty Boy said:


> One of the reasons I think its a bit hard to bother with - I prefer to start with fresh each time (I grow up from slants) or re-pitch slurry within a short timeframe. Worth while if you mainly use the same yeast all the time though and have a chance to learn how it behaves when washed.


I've come to the same conclusion, starting from slants is much less risky in terms of yeast health, generation change, mutations and infection possibilities, however water-washing yeast is not that hard, and since I usually only make a small number of slants for each yeast variety, washed yeast is a good options for stuff like 1469 which seems to be popular and is not always available from the manufacturer.


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## jakub76 (9/7/10)

+1 Wolfy


> I find for my setup (so I extended this assumption to my suggestions for the OP) - is that I notice a significant amount less break material


I think you're onto something there. I also leave most of the break material in my kettle and I transfer through voil cloth to catch any that I let through. It should be noted that OP has missed a step with the initial decant off the trub but if he has similar process and results to us then the majority of what he's collecting is in fact yeast.


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## Ronin (9/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> I don't need a Google search if I can just open the fridge:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes but Benniee can't just open your fridge...those posts were for him to make his own informed decisions as to what he wants to keep. And I think you'll find it did help him.

I agree what you have do look like clean yeast cultures, and they differ from what Benniee posted in that they are a single homogeneous layer when settled. His weren't.

A *pure *culture of yeast will not form 2 layers of sediment regardless of what they look like in suspension. It simply won't.



Wolfy said:


> Wait sufficient time for any break material, hop debris, trub or other unwanted 'stuff' to stink to the bottom and discard, saving the creamy yeast-suspension ontop.
> (_Note: 'sufficient time' as outlined in the links and from my own experience is usually in the order of 10-30mins, not overnight_)



So why were you earlier suggesting that Bennie not wait 10-30 minutes? If he waits 10-30 minutes (i suggested he wait 8 minutes), then takes the supernatant he'll be leaving a lot of what I believe is trub (and you are calling yeast) behind. 

I am not suggesting that he wait overnight to get rid of the trub at all. Putting the *supernatant* in the fridge overnight will let the yeast settle out of the supernatant before washing again. If you go back and look at my post you'll find that I suggested he decant the yeast off the top at 8 minutes, then leave the supernatant to settle overnight before repeating the washing procedure to get rid of any break that carried through into the supernatant.

Benniee, if you want to get as much yeast as possible out of your fermenter, I suggest you wash the trub multiple times. You'll end up with a lot of supernatant but once the yeast has settled out you can resuspend the yeast pellet in any volume you'd like.

Basically pour off the supernatant at 8 minutes, leaving all the trub behind. Don't take any, even if it means leaving a lot of supernatant behind. Add more water to the trub (what you've left behind) and shake it up. Let it settle 8 minutes then pour off the supernatant leaving all the trub and some supernatant behind again. Keep doing this until the liquid on top of the trub turns clear (clear-ish, it may not turn perfectly clear). Once that is clear, there are no more yeast to collect. 

What you're doing is diluting the supernatant that you leave behind, so eventually you'll only leave a relatively small amount of yeast behind. It should increase your yields. 

Need I say always keep the supernatant you decant? It's where all your yeast are.

Let me know if you need me to explain that any more,

James

EDIT: I'm done here Benniee, if you want any more help just PM me


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## Benniee (9/7/10)

Thanks for all the input from all side here fellas. This is certainly a subject that causes strong opinions.

The links posted up by Ronin are very helpful - particularly the illustrated ones. It's information such as this that I was really hoping for - good pictorial guides to what a "typical" rinse will look like at various steps.

I do like to work with slants to store/retrieve pure yeast - but I'm currently lacking a stir plate so to go from a slant to pitchable volume for around 25L of lager takes me around 12-14 days. This often doesn't fit with my spur-of-the moment brew sessions 

I've planned to pitch this yeast into a German Pils this weekend - this will be the last re-pitch of this yeast. I'll move to a different strain for a while and then come back to this strain going from a slant again. For me any medium to long term storage is done on slants. I'm really looking to harvest/rinse/pitch within a week or two - just to try and reduce the time and starter wort required to grow up a volume of yeast from a slant.

I'll leave this thread to run it's natural course now - I was just looking to post up some pics of what I was mentioning to Wolfy much earlier. I got the pics, and got the opinion from a number of people - thanks again.

Benniee


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## Wolfy (9/7/10)

Ronin said:


> yes but Benniee can't just open your fridge...those posts were for him to make his own informed decisions as to what he wants to keep. And I think you'll find it did help him.
> 
> I agree what you have do look like clean yeast cultures, and they differ from what Benniee posted in that they are a single homogeneous layer when settled. His weren't.


They look like clean yeast cultures becasue they have been washed several times, and are the end result of the process rather than the first step of the procedure.
The fist and intermediate steps looked - within the limitations of online photography - virtually the same as what was posted earlier in the thread, and I followed the procedure outlined earlier in the thread to achieve the results you see. It seemed logical to me, that if things look the same, and if the same procedures are followed, most likely the same result will be achieved.


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## MHB (9/7/10)

Was down in Adelaide this week and spent a day at WineTech, one of the exhibitors had some premade selective culture plates.

These are Petri Dishes preloaded with agar and a mixture of various Chemicals Nutrient - Antibiotics that will either kill off yeast or non yeast organisms.

Different plates are used so you can see if a sample is contaminated, or that will kill of a bunch of unwanted bugs so you can select pure yeast to breed up.

Just ordering a couple of packs of each will let people know how they work out.

MHB


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## SpillsMostOfIt (9/7/10)

Nothing says it like a link:

http://www.brewingscience.com/yeast_care.htm

Found it today during a completely unrelated and thoroughly fruitless interwebs search


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## MaltyHops (1/3/13)

Bit of a necro dig with this thread but I am washing a Wy2352-PC Munich Lager II yeast cake at the moment and have a situation pretty close to what Benniee was seeing:



Benniee said:


> Ok - I've managed to snap off a few pictures of my rinsing attempts, and I'm hoping some of the more experienced guys here can chip in with their 2c. Rather than start another thread I'll just continue this one going - yeast harvesting seems to be a hot subject at present.
> 
> As a little background - this is a lager yeast strain, and I'm pretty careful with my transfers into my fermenter. I may get a little break material in there, but not a heap.
> 
> ...


and in the interesting discussion between Wolfy, Ronin and others, Ronin said:



Ronin said:


> Hey Benniee,
> 
> my professional opinion (and I'm a microbiologist not a brewer) is that
> all the stuff in the second photo (the closeup) is the trub. I've grown
> ...


In my case, the stuff that takes the longest time (more than several hours) to settle out (which is yeast according to Ronin) is a medium brown/tan colour whereas the earlier settled stuff that Wolfy in the discussion thought was yeast is a white colour (I used all Munich II malt).

So my question is is medium brown/tan colour the natural colour of the Wy2352 lager yeast?

I intend to reuse this yeast so due to the doubt about what's what, I will save both the earlier settled stuff and the darker last to settle stuff.


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## Wolfy (17/3/13)

MaltyHops said:


> ..
> So my question is is medium brown/tan colour the natural colour of the Wy2352 lager yeast?
> 
> I intend to reuse this yeast so due to the doubt about what's what, I will save both the earlier settled stuff and the darker last to settle stuff.


Sorry but I don't have any more or better suggestions than the pictures posted earlier in this thread, and the stuff in my Yeast washing thread.


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## MaltyHops (18/3/13)

Thanks Wolfy - it's just that I seem to have the impression that pure yeast
is meant to be white coloured always so the sequence in which I was seeing
things happen is a bit odd.


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