# Can i leave my wort over night to cool?



## beno1 (15/3/14)

just wondering if it would be ok to leave my wort overnight to cool? Also should i leave the hop bag in there overnight also or take it out??


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## manticle (15/3/14)

When wort is at a certain temp range (between 5 and 65 odd) it is sucseptible to infection from microorganisms that will put weird flavours in the beer. Yeast is a microorganism and when it is present in the wort and has a haed start, it should outrun those others.

Therefore you need to either

1. Chill as quickly as possible so you can get yeast in there

OR

2. Keep the wort in a sanitised, sealed container until you can pitch yeast.

Anything else is a risk. It's a risk you may get away with - boil and cover pot, glad wrap over pot, pot in cold fridge, etc but there is a chance it will work and a chance it won't.

What's your proposed method?


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## beno1 (15/3/14)

I am a BIAB brewer, i brew in a 50litre pot. I usually place in an ice bath but dont have time to do it for this one. So was going to keep it in the brew pot cover ( seal with glad wrap and leave in kitchen overnight to cool. Should i leave the hop bag in over night? Or not ?


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## Bribie G (15/3/14)

You should get away with it provided there aren't any nooks and crannies (such as a ball lock tap) where nasties could be lurking. For example I never do it in an urn as there are parts of the pot that don't get a good boil, tap and sight tube. Even if I'm pitching the next day I always "no chill" the wort by running it into a well sanitised cube.


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## JDW81 (15/3/14)

beno1 said:


> Should i leave the hop bag in over night?


I'd take the bag out before sealing, then go and buy a cube from bunnings tomorrow so you don't have to worry about it again.

JD


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## manticle (15/3/14)

People do no chill in kettles with no issue. I'd second JD's suggestion.


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## TimT (15/3/14)

I've done this once or twice. How else would people have cooled their wort before they knew/cared about bacteria? I reckon you'll be fine


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## Yob (15/3/14)

Done si myself a few times, prefer not to but in a pinch I've been known to bang the lid on and walk away, I do so knowing the risks.


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## TimT (15/3/14)

One problem of course is overnight might not be long enough. The bloody things take ages to cool, and when temps raise again during the day they can slow down the cooling for the final few degrees even more.


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## manticle (15/3/14)

TimT said:


> I've done this once or twice. How else would people have cooled their wort before they knew/cared about bacteria? I reckon you'll be fine


People used to use bleeding as a means of controlling infection, leeches were once used commonly in medical treatment, mentally ill people given cold water baths to treat hysterical conditions and trephination was quite common once upon a time. Lobotomy was quite in vogue for a while too.

Just because something is old or once was common, doesn't mean that improvements aren't exactly that (an improvement). Before people knew about bacteria, they possibly drank really foul tasting beer. Some of the shit that's got in my improperly sealed cubes wouldn't be fit for a meth drinker.

I'm interested in historical brewing practices and the evolution of brewing science and practice too but there's also a good reason things don't always remain as they once were. History and culture evolve.

That said, when I hear modern pop music I realise evolution isn't always onwards and upwards. One step forwards, two steps back.


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## TimT (15/3/14)

You mean I've spent all this time and money on finding a doctor for trepanning for nothing? Damn!


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## TimT (15/3/14)

I do take your point Manticle. But also worth remembering that when brewers replace judgement based on common sense with judgement based on often poorly-understood science, they do themselves and the ancient art of brewing a disservice. We all know the risks of infection - but we shouldn't exaggerate them.


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## manticle (15/3/14)

TimT said:


> You mean I've spent all this time and money on finding a doctor for trepanning for nothing? Damn!


Most people just do it with a cordless these days. Catch up. Ozitos are cheap.

I agree we shouldn't exaggerate but brewers continually ask the same thing - will my x y z be OK if I take this short cut?

Answer is maybe, maybe not. People want reassurance but I'm not sure why. Do or do not as Yoda once said.


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## sandybits (15/3/14)

I'd read somewhere to put the cooling kettle on cold concrete. I guess the theory is that heat transfers to concrete better than air. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity reckons that concrete is a slightly better conductor than soil and a fair bit better than air alone. Water is sort of in the middle of the two. This also shows that aluminium is more conductive than stainless steel. Putting aside other issues an al pot on concrete should cool quicker than stainless steel in air alone (like on the stove top above the gas burners). However, I may have completely misunderstood the science. 

As to the other issues, I'm not sure but I plan on chilling my first BIAB this way. Now it will be on the concrete.


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## Yob (15/3/14)

Do you have a pool?


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## beno1 (15/3/14)

Ive covered it with glad wrap and put it on a concrete floor for the night. It will be fine. Howz all these poor people in 3rd world countries and were here debating about this. 
Thanks for the feedback guys .


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## manticle (15/3/14)

beno1 said:


> Ive covered it with glad wrap and put it on a concrete floor for the night. It will be fine.


Why'd you ask then?


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## beno1 (16/3/14)

manticle said:


> Why'd you ask then?


Just wanted to get peoples opinions on it


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## marksy (16/3/14)

Always leave overnight to chill.


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## New_guy (17/3/14)

Good discussion - has helped me map out my own procedure

1. Transfer from kettle to sanitised fermenter
2. Seal fermenter (inc air lock)
3. Leave to cool overnight on concrete floor
4. Put in ferment fridge with stc set at 18c following day 
5. Pitch once 18c achieved on fermenter 

Presumption is that fermenter is no different to a cube and this means one less transfer of wort


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## Yob (17/3/14)

Except there is no oxygen in a cube... lots of nasty wort loving microbes in that air... 

The only times I've done this is when I had to go out and convection in the kettle hadn't slowed due in part to ambient temperature being high... 

Never had an issue but I've never re used yeast from those batches either, I'd guess the bacterial load would be higher on those batches.


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## schrodinger (17/3/14)

New_guy said:


> Good discussion - has helped me map out my own procedure
> 
> 1. Transfer from kettle to sanitised fermenter
> 2. Seal fermenter (inc air lock)
> ...


The one difference is the air lock. As the air in the head space cools along with the wort, it will contract, drawing air into the fermenter. Going from 100C to 18C, it will contract ~22%. So if your head space is around a gallon, you'll draw in around a litre of air. Lot of bugs in a litre of air!

If you had a HEPA filter inline with your airlock (or in place of your airlock), you should be fine.


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## New_guy (17/3/14)

Yob said:


> Except there is no oxygen in a cube... lots of nasty wort loving microbes in that air...
> 
> The only times I've done this is when I had to go out and convection in the kettle hadn't slowed due in part to ambient temperature being high...
> 
> Never had an issue but I've never re used yeast from those batches either, I'd guess the bacterial load would be higher on those batches.


Righto good point 
Looks like I'm heading to the big green shed for a cube 

What if u have say 23 litres of wort ? 
You can put 20 in a cube but I don't want to waste the other 3 
Or put in a 25 ltr cube and have a 2 litre head space?


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## New_guy (17/3/14)

schrodinger said:


> The one difference is the air lock. As the air in the head space cools along with the wort, it will contract, drawing air into the fermenter. Going from 100C to 18C, it will contract ~22%. So if your head space is around a gallon, you'll draw in around a litre of air. Lot of bugs in a litre of air!
> 
> If you had a HEPA filter inline with your airlock (or in place of your airlock), you should be fine.


Fresh out of hepa filters 
The air lock will be sealed - no air entry ?


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## TimT (17/3/14)

(Pssst.... two days after original post.... I think your wort should be cool enough now, hey!)


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## Yob (17/3/14)

New_guy said:


> Righto good point
> Looks like I'm heading to the big green shed for a cube
> What if u have say 23 litres of wort ?
> You can put 20 in a cube but I don't want to waste the other 3
> Or put in a 25 ltr cube and have a 2 litre head space?


I've deliberately stretched a few of my cubes, they can hold 25L, right to the brim new ones will hold almost 23L


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## GalBrew (17/3/14)

New_guy said:


> Righto good point
> Looks like I'm heading to the big green shed for a cube
> 
> What if u have say 23 litres of wort ?
> ...


Get a bigger cube and squeeze it to minimise headspace as you seal it. I have 25L cubes, filled with 23L of wort and a little headspace. 


There is quite a bit of instruction on no-chill on this site. It will answer all your questions.


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## schrodinger (17/3/14)

sandybits said:


> I'd read somewhere to put the cooling kettle on cold concrete. I guess the theory is that heat transfers to concrete better than air. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity reckons that concrete is a slightly better conductor than soil and a fair bit better than air alone. Water is sort of in the middle of the two. This also shows that aluminium is more conductive than stainless steel. Putting aside other issues an al pot on concrete should cool quicker than stainless steel in air alone (like on the stove top above the gas burners). However, I may have completely misunderstood the science.


You're right on that science, as far as it goes: it's certainly true that heat diffuses faster in concrete than in air, water or dry soil, and faster in aluminium than in steel. But the trick is not to rely on diffusion of heat in the first place -- use a fluid (air or water) but make sure there is bulk flow of the fluid, with fans or an aquarium pump. You'll get vastly greater heat transfer.

The reason is that heat flow creates a boundary layer, which is a layer of intermediate temperature across which heat has to diffuse. The boundary layer greatly slows heat transfer because it increases the distance that heat has to diffuse. The thicker the b.l., the slower the transfer, and the less movement of the transfer medium (concrete, air, whatever), the thicker the boundary layer.

Radiation is also a highly effective means of heat transfer. If you live somewhere with clear, dry nights, put the cube out in the open, and it will cool down faster because it's dumping IR into deep space but getting very little back. 12 hrs radiation into a clear, dry night sky for a 30-cm square cube would give you nearly half (3 MJ) of the total heat loss (6.9 MJ) you need to cool 20L from 100C to 18C, whereas the same thing indoors with surroundings at room temp would give around a seventh (1 MJ) because the cube is receiving much more IR from its surroundings indoors.


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## New_guy (17/3/14)

GalBrew said:


> Get a bigger cube and squeeze it to minimise headspace as you seal it. I have 25L cubes, filled with 23L of wort and a little headspace.
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1395001558.846389.jpgThere is quite a bit of instruction on no-chill on this site. It will answer all your questions.



Cheers mate - all makes sense now


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## New_guy (17/3/14)

Yob said:


> I've deliberately stretched a few of my cubes, they can hold 25L, right to the brim new ones will hold almost 23L


Thanks Yob - 20 litre cubes it is


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## S.E (17/3/14)

Yob said:


> I've deliberately stretched a few of my cubes, they can hold 25L, right to the brim new ones will hold almost 23L


How did you deliberately stretch your cubes Yob?


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## Yob (17/3/14)

40g Sodium Percarbonate and boiling water, seal cube and shake, the cube will swell with the perc going nuts, leave for a few minutes, release pressure and repeat as desired. (Protective eyeware a good idea)

You can also do similar by adding perc, bit of boiling water and topping up to full, and sealing and as the perc gives off the gas it'll expand the cube.


:icon_cheers:


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## S.E (17/3/14)

Yob said:


> 40g Sodium Percarbonate and boiling water, seal cube and shake, the cube will swell with the perc going nuts, leave for a few minutes, release pressure and repeat as desired. (Protective eyeware a good idea)
> 
> You can also do similar by adding perc, bit of boiling water and topping up to full, and sealing and as the perc gives off the gas it'll expand the cube.
> 
> ...


Is it common practise for no chillers to stretch their cubes like this?
This thread (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70056-carbingconditioning-in-a-cube-before-keg/ ) was lambasted and trolled after I said I used cubes as casks and deliberately allowed them to carbonate and swell up.

Shaking Sodium Percarbonate and boiling water sounds far more dangerous, have you ever had one explode doing this by any chance?


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## manticle (17/3/14)

I've had them split at the seams so you do need to exercise caution. Backyard OHS - you are dealing with boiling hot solution. No dramatic explosions though.

I don't do it to stretch it though - just to clean. Leaving cubes in UV light weakens them quicker in my experience.

I think in the thread you are referring to, there was a misunderstanding as to the carb level being recommended - might be time to put that one to bed.


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## Yob (17/3/14)

dunno of anyone else doing it but I wanted slightly larger cubes to accommodate my system,

I _*do*_ say to wear protective eye wear just in case.. but no, never had any issues, wrapping a towel over the lids is probably a good idea but ive never worried about it, bung is always pointed away from me. Its only a few seconds shaking... and Ive only *done this when they are new and not aged or repeatedly used. The other method of adding the perc and topping up with water and sealing is just as effective to stretch them.

I'm familiar with the thread you mention, when shaking with the boiling water, _*you dont seal it as tight as when you are cubing for example*_, so there is _*still some pressure relief*_ but not loose enough that you are spraying yourself with boiling water.

@Manticle, I often leave my cubes full of solution on the table out front of the shed for a week or so at a time, not saying it's great for them but Ive not had any failures to date and most of my cubes are a year or two old now.

*ed: better word


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## manticle (17/3/14)

If they are blue willow cubes you will notice them fade.


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## S.E (17/3/14)

I clean my cubes by shaking boiling caustic in them, I leave the cap a little loose though and the rubber ring inside the cube.

I did split a willow jerry can doing this and put it down to uv damage as manticle said. The plastic was brittle and cracked down one side, I was wearing a rubber glove at the time.


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## S.E (17/3/14)

manticle said:


> If they are blue willow cubes you will notice them fade.


It was actually a blue willow that split on me.


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## S.E (17/3/14)

Interesting that yob leaves his cubes out in the sun with no probs so far. I also often left my cubes in the sun and never had a problem and I’m still using the same cubes. I don’t leave them in the sun for long anymore though.

The willow that cracked wasn’t very old maybe a year or two and had only been used as a fermenter not a cask so hadn’t been under pressure or stretched.


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## S.E (17/3/14)

manticle said:


> I've had them split at the seams so you do need to exercise caution. Backyard OHS - you are dealing with boiling hot solution. No dramatic explosions though.
> 
> I don't do it to stretch it though - just to clean. Leaving cubes in UV light weakens them quicker in my experience.
> 
> I think in the thread you are referring to, there was a misunderstanding as to the carb level being recommended - might be time to put that one to bed.


There was no misunderstanding regarding carb level being recommended, when I pointed out in another thread that an infected no chill cube could swell up and burst same as a cask cube I just received an extremely abusive personal attack and a link to a keg bulk buy.

I just think it a shame that some members on here are so stubbornly against the idea and try to put others off trying it with talk of electrical hazards, hydraulics and explosions etc.


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## manticle (17/3/14)

S.E said:


> There was no misunderstanding regarding carb level being recommended, when I pointed out in another thread that an infected no chill cube could swell up and burst same as a cask cube I just received an extremely abusive personal attack and a link to a keg bulk buy.
> 
> I just think it a shame that some members on here are so stubbornly against the idea and try to put others off trying it with talk of electrical hazards, hydraulics and explosions etc.


Well whatever it was it would be best put to bed or sorted out privately between members rather than being mentioned in every thread on cubes.

I take no sides nor do I wish to adjudicate. I also have no problem with the idea of cask conditioned real ale cubes.


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## Bribie G (17/3/14)

When I used to no chill in Willows I got one of the last white 20L Willow Jerries. I emailed them and they said that they went to blue as it protects the cubes from degenerating in sunlight, being that most usage was by campers and 4WD enthusiasts who used them for water storage. Waste of a cube if you ask me.

However she did say that due to this, they made sure that the blue shyte was tastless, odourless and didn't leach out. Much.

Back on topic, a Willow Jerry is actually a better NC cube than a cube cube due to its more efficient surface to volume ratio. Sadly I had to move away from them as I no longer bottle and they hold way too much for a keg brew.
I still have a cube cube as a reserve, gets some use in the brewing comps season, but I usually split a batch of wort between two 10L jerries that cool down even quicker.

Edit: the Willows "stretch" themselves after many brews as they become somewhat bulged at the sides and can hold up to 25L.


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## Spiesy (18/3/14)

manticle said:


> One step forwards, two steps back.


You're quoting Paula Abdul in "Opposites Attract" here, right?


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## manticle (18/3/14)

That's me. Paula all over for me. Such an amazing artist.


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## fletcher (18/3/14)

New_guy said:


> Good discussion - has helped me map out my own procedure
> 
> 1. Transfer from kettle to sanitised fermenter
> 2. Seal fermenter (inc air lock)
> ...


this is okay, as others have said, with a few caveats. namely head space but the other one i don't think others have mentioned as yet is giving it a good old splash around once it gets to 18C so you give your yeasties some oxygen love, before pitching.


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## Florian (18/3/14)

Did you just call him 'love'? :huh: 

As for cooling wort overnight, I only do this for Hefeweizens when I'm transferring directly from kettle to fermenter, fill headspace with Co2 and leave until pitching temp is reached.
I do this to deliberately starve the wort of oxygen, which in my setup and process and to my palate enhances the flavour profile of that style.


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