# Bleach + Vinegar Non Rinse Sanatiser



## mwd (31/3/11)

Maybe a stupid question but does Bleach+Vinegar sanitiser mixed up at 1.5ml per litre degenerate after some time. I have got some in a spray bottle but cannot detect the normal slight chlorine smell.

Much easier with Iodophor it goes clear when exhausted. :excl:


----------



## felten (31/3/11)

chlorine is quite volatile and does degrade over time, can't remember the time frame but I know the 2 blokes from 4star chemicals discuss it in those various podcast's they've done.


----------



## np1962 (31/3/11)

I live by the motto 'Use within 8 hours'
As felten said chlorine is quite volatile.
Nige


----------



## stux (31/3/11)

felten said:


> chlorine is quite volatile and does degrade over time, can't remember the time frame but I know the 2 blokes from 4star chemicals discuss it in those various podcast's they've done.



The guys from 5star on those brewstrong podcasts also say that vinegar and bleach can produce chlorine gas which can lead to death, and thus don't recommend it

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469


----------



## QldKev (31/3/11)

The lower the pH the more volatile bleach becomes. Mixed with vinegar it is in a more acid environment, so it give of it's sanitising properties a lot quicker. 

QldKev


----------



## QldKev (31/3/11)

Stux said:


> The guys from 5star on those brewstrong podcasts also say that vinegar and bleach can produce chlorine gas which can lead to death, and thus don't recommend it
> 
> http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469




A chlorine substance, aka bleach in an acid environment will always give of chlorine gas. Don't shove your head in the gas fumes and you will be ok. 

Surprised 5star disapprove of an alternative sanitising method??? never!

Don't get me wrong I now use starsan as my main sanatiser, but did use bleach/vinegar for many years. 


QldKev


----------



## gone_fishing (31/3/11)

QldKev said:


> A chlorine substance, aka bleach in an acid environment will always give of chlorine gas. Don't shove your head in the gas fumes and you will be ok.
> 
> Surprised 5star disapprove of an alternative sanitising method??? never!
> 
> ...



The guys from 5-star should be severely chastised for their "ours is safest, ours is best, ours does not require rinsing" propaganda. Simple facts are: If it doesn't need rinsing at low concentrations it is not going to be effective unless it is particularly toxic. If it is particularly toxic then it should be rinsed  

Stick with the bleach and save your $ for quality ingredients to go into your beer. Rinse, rinse, rinse.
gf


----------



## Rodolphe01 (31/3/11)

gone_fishing said:


> The guys from 5-star should be severely chastised for their "ours is safest, ours is best, ours does not require rinsing" propaganda. Simple facts are: If it doesn't need rinsing at low concentrations it is not going to be effective unless it is particularly toxic. If it is particularly toxic then it should be rinsed
> 
> Stick with the bleach and save your $ for quality ingredients to go into your beer. Rinse, rinse, rinse.
> gf



Not necessarily, the dose and mode of action on microorganisms is probably very different to 70+kg mammals. But I do agree in being sceptical of a manufacturer of something saying everything else is bad.


----------



## going down a hill (31/3/11)

Rudi 101 said:


> But I do agree in being sceptical of a manufacturer of something saying everything else is bad.


And never trust a person that says "trust me".


----------



## manticle (31/3/11)

I was under the impression that 5star recommended particular proportions of bleach/vinegar as a no rinse alternative to star san.

You just need to mix them properly to avoid massive sudden release of chlorine gas.

Of course Darren was always concerned about introducing acetobacter using the vinegar/bleach solution. Gone fishing is probably more concerned about islamist infestation.


----------



## mwd (31/3/11)

Yes remember a podcast with the 'Starsan Man' spent half the recording going on about useing bleach/vinegar.

The danger is adding neat vinegar to neat bleach you need to add either one or the other to the water first before mixing


----------



## felten (31/3/11)

On both podcasts, brewing network and basic brewing radio, the blokes from starsan spend a lot of time advocating the use of bleach and vinegar as a no rinse sanitiser. I'm not sure where people get the idea that they are shitting all over alternative sanitisers, but I haven't seen it anywhere. In fact Charlie Talley has a background in the chloralkali process, making chlorine.


----------



## Wolfy (31/3/11)

felten said:


> On both podcasts, brewing network and basic brewing radio, the blokes from starsan spend a lot of time advocating the use of bleach and vinegar as a no rinse sanitiser.


It's been a while since I listened to them but that was what I remembered.


----------



## katzke (1/4/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Simple facts are: If it doesn't need rinsing at low concentrations it is not going to be effective unless it is particularly toxic. If it is particularly toxic then it should be rinsed
> 
> Stick with the bleach and save your $ for quality ingredients to go into your beer. Rinse, rinse, rinse.
> gf



Have to disagree with you there.

A sanitizer can be effective in correct proportion and be fine diluted with many liters or gallons of fresh wort. The problem with some chemicals is the effect they have in very small quantity to our beer. Bleach is one of those that has been shown to present problems. So the advice is to rinse and rinse again to remove it from the brewing equipment.

The problem that can cause is how clean is the water you are rinsing with?

I use and have used bleach, bleach water mixed with vinegar, iodine, and Starsan. Each has a use. I find that I reach for the Starsan more as it has more uses and is always available to me pre-mixed in various storage containers.

Back to the question. I do not think a bleach-vinegar mixture is one that should be stored. I have no evidence to that. I would trust your nose. Testing the small amount you have would likely cost many times more then just tossing it and mixing more.


----------



## Dribs (27/8/11)

bum-bum-bum-bump!!!

With using the bleach and vinegar mix on bottles, would it be best to soak the bottles for at least 45 mins or is a few squirts with a spray bottle sufficient?


----------



## Wolfy (27/8/11)

Dribs said:


> With using the bleach and vinegar mix on bottles, would it be best to soak the bottles for at least 45 mins or is a few squirts with a spray bottle sufficient?


I think it only takes a min or two to kill all the bugs, so just immerse them in the bleach-solution and then rinse it out.


----------



## mmmyummybeer (28/8/11)

Sorry but I can't imagine why you would want to stuff around mixing vinegar and bleach, when Star San is so good. I have had my bottle of Star San for ages now as the mixture rate is so low it is very cost effective and a hell of a lot safer. I also don't have to worry about leaving trace's of chlorine or acetic acid that could effect my beer. 
Its a personal choice I guess, but its a no brainer for me Star San all the way.


----------



## Braumoasta (28/8/11)

mmmyummybeer said:


> Sorry but I can't imagine why you would want to stuff around mixing vinegar and bleach.



It takes me honestly about 20 seconds to mix the vinegar and bleach, certainly no stuffing around. Has worked excellent for me. Just rinse my bottles in the solution, and have never noticed any off flavours, nor had any infected bottles.


----------



## mje1980 (28/8/11)

I've used iodophor for the last few years, no worries. But I recently had a brewery infection, so I hit eberything with bleach and vinegar. Problem solved!!. I wouldn't use it all the time, but when you have a serious bug, ya gotta bring out the big guns!!. I


----------



## Dribs (28/8/11)

Vinegar and bleach are handy when you live in Bumpkinville and don't shop online. However, having something on hand to measure such tiny amounts of liquid accurately shat on this idea. Thankfully I had one cap of Brewshield (hydrogen peroxide + silver ions) left over.


----------



## dkaos (29/8/11)

Because some brewers want to go to the nth degree to save a dollar mate.


----------

