# No-rinse Sanitiser I Bought



## spicks

I bought this sanitizer, which is says "No need to rinse. Completely odourless". It is the Brewcraft Brewshield Sanitiser.

It contains Hydrogen Peroxide 3%, Silver Ions and distilled water.

So why does it give me first aid advice if I swallow it? Am I meant to just spray it on using an atomiser gun, let it dry and just go ahead with brewing? Or should I rinse the fermenter items?

Thanks.


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## barfridge

"Am I meant to just spray it on using an atomiser gun, let it dry and just go ahead with brewing?"

bingo! brewshield is good stuff


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## PeterS

barfridge said:


> "Am I meant to just spray it on using an atomiser gun, let it dry and just go ahead with brewing?"
> 
> bingo! brewshield is good stuff
> [post="48308"][/post]​



I just started to use Morgan's. I presume it is the same stuff by a different label. My readings indicated that Sodium Metabisulphate is not realy recommended as it inhibits growth of bacteria and does not kill them. As it is not cheap, I use a spray atomiser. According to instructions on the bottle, but I do not trust it and still rinse with tap water. 

Prior to using that stuff, I wash everything in houshold bleach solution anyway and that is also a good sanitizer I am led to believe. Again rinse after it as well.
:chug:


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## chiefman

Do any of you guys use bleach i always use it in a diluted form then rinse with boiling water. There are so many web sites that recomend it


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## warrenlw63

Bleach is a good, cheap reliable sanitizer IMO.

OTOH After 8+ years of having to thoroughly rinse fermenters on a busy brew day. It gets to be a bit of a PITA. Particularly glass carboys which are dangerous to handle whilst full of water or anything else for that matter.

I switched to iodine based sanitizers and never looked back. They're virtually no rinse. May cost more but are worth it in terms of time and water saved.

I just add 5ml of iodophor to 5 litres of water and shake the bejeezus out of the fermenter over the period of a couple of hours when I can remember. Let it drain into a bucket to sanitize my other implements and just let the carboy drain.

Easy as.

Warren -


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## neonmeate

i'll have to get into that iodophor stuff. rinsing out bleach from a carboy is not only a PITA but a pain in the back too, i did my back in last year after bending over a bathtub trying to slosh water around to rinse a carboy. also being the token greenie that i am i'd like to save water. and not tip a bottle of bleach a month down the drain.


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## TidalPete

Peter Shane said:


> barfridge said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Am I meant to just spray it on using an atomiser gun, let it dry and just go ahead with brewing?"
> 
> bingo! brewshield is good stuff
> [post="48308"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just started to use Morgan's. I presume it is the same stuff by a different label. My readings indicated that Sodium Metabisulphate is not realy recommended as it inhibits growth of bacteria and does not kill them. As it is not cheap, I use a spray atomiser. According to instructions on the bottle, but I do not trust it and still rinse with tap water.
> 
> Prior to using that stuff, I wash everything in houshold bleach solution anyway and that is also a good sanitizer I am led to believe. Again rinse after it as well.
> :chug:
> [post="48317"][/post]​
Click to expand...


I use Morgan's for all my little odds & ends & am interested in finding out how long the solution in the sprayer is good for before it deteriates to the point where it is not effective?  Also, I am too impatient to wait for the stuff to dry. Is this neccessarily a bad thing. :blink:


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## Ross

Tidalpete said:


> I use Morgan's for all my little odds & ends & am interested in finding out how long the solution in the sprayer is good for before it deteriates to the point where it is not effective?  Also, I am too impatient to wait for the stuff to dry. Is this neccessarily a bad thing. :blink:
> [post="67430"][/post]​



The solution will easily stay good for the length of time the bottle will last you & can be reused many times if kept in a bottle or jar - Also no need to dry, but takes up to 7 minutes to fully sterilise...


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## TidalPete

Ross said:


> The solution will easily stay good for the length of time the bottle will last you & can be reused many times if kept in a bottle or jar - Also no need to dry, but takes up to 7 minutes to fully sterilise...
> [post="67432"][/post]​



Thanks Ross. This was just the info I needed. Where did you get it from? :blink: 
Morgans told me that 1 day was the limit, but I suspected that this was only in their (sales) interests.


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## Kai

I would be careful trying to keep a solution of Morgan's Sanitize for any extended period. The hydrogen peroxide in it will degrade over time.


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## TidalPete

Kai said:


> I would be careful trying to keep a solution of Morgan's Sanitize for any extended period. The hydrogen peroxide in it will degrade over time.
> [post="67436"][/post]​



I agree that one should be careful Kai. I only intend to use the diluted sanitiser over a 2 to 2.5-day period so hopefully this should be ok.  Time (pardon the pun) will tell.

:beer:


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## Ross

Tidalpete said:


> Thanks Ross. This was just the info I needed. Where did you get it from? :blink:
> Morgans told me that 1 day was the limit, but I suspected that this was only in their (sales) interests.
> [post="67435"][/post]​



1 Day!!?? Would have been on the shelf for longer than that?? or am I missing something?


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## Kai

That's the concentrate, Ross. When you make up the solution to use, it's a different matter.


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## Ross

Kai said:


> I would be careful trying to keep a solution of Morgan's Sanitize for any extended period. The hydrogen peroxide in it will degrade over time.
> [post="67436"][/post]​



How long then Kai?? It's sold as a solution & has no use by date on the bottle. Would assume if it had a limited shelf life, it would be printed on the bottle??

Hydrogen peroxide is a stable product, heating it above 80c or introducing contaminants will shorten its life - For this reason I dilute it with deionised water, which gives it a long shelf life - I buy a concentrated form that dilutes 1ml per 1L in water to sterilise all my equipment - IMO the best steriliser for homebrewers on the market...


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## Ross

Kai said:


> That's the concentrate, Ross. When you make up the solution to use, it's a different matter.
> [post="67442"][/post]​



Sanitise is only a 3% solution, it is already diluted with distilled water...


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## TidalPete

Ross said:


> Hydrogen peroxide is a stable product, heating it above 80c or introducing contaminants will shorten its life - For this reason I dilute it with deionised water, which gives it a long shelf life - I buy a concentrated form that dilutes 1ml per 1L in water to sterilise all my equipment - IMO the best steriliser for homebrewers on the market...
> [post="67443"][/post]​



This is all most interesting Ross. You certainly seem very knowledgeable on this subject & I am keen to find out where you obtained your concentrated Hydrogen peroxide & in what quantity & how much was it?  It would seem that the concentrated form has advantages over the "homebrew brand" type of product?  What are the "contaminants" that you mention in the quote above? 

:beer:


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## Kai

Ross said:


> Kai said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be careful trying to keep a solution of Morgan's Sanitize for any extended period. The hydrogen peroxide in it will degrade over time.
> [post="67436"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How long then Kai?? It's sold as a solution & has no use by date on the bottle. Would assume if it had a limited shelf life, it would be printed on the bottle??
> 
> Hydrogen peroxide is a stable product, heating it above 80c or introducing contaminants will shorten its life - For this reason I dilute it with deionised water, which gives it a long shelf life - I buy a concentrated form that dilutes 1ml per 1L in water to sterilise all my equipment - IMO the best steriliser for homebrewers on the market...
> [post="67443"][/post]​
Click to expand...



Ross,

Beats me, I was only supposing  I generally use ortho-phos and surfactant for my sanitation, due to convenience. I assumed that H2O2 by nature would be more volatile, especially with a silver ion catalyst in the mix.

Maybe it lasts plenty long time with deionised water, but how many people do you reckon do that? Safer and easier to discard after a couple uses, I would think. And from what I can recall, if H2O2 gets up to 80C it can get quite explosive... dunno about concentrations though.


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## Ross

Tidalpete said:


> This is all most interesting Ross. You certainly seem very knowledgeable on this subject & I am keen to find out where you obtained your concentrated Hydrogen peroxide & in what quantity & how much was it?  It would seem that the concentrated form has advantages over the "homebrew brand" type of product?  What are the "contaminants" that you mention in the quote above?
> 
> :beer:
> [post="67471"][/post]​



Tidalpete, contaminants as in dirty water or general cleaning - a google search on Hydrogen peroxide will bring you up a wealth of info including safety data etc...
I buy Hy-san - it's a product produced for the horticultural Industry - $24 for 1L - dilutes 1000 - 1 for disinfecting. Horticultural Solutions - 86 Duncan Rd, Capalaba. Tel 3206 0037. Contact Wolfgang Strube B.Sc.Agr(Hort.)
He's a keen homebrewer himself & is most helpful...

At $24 for a 1000L there's not much need to reuse it anyway...

Cheers Ross


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## tonydav

This certainly sounds like the ducks guts. Anyone know of a source in the Sydney area?

tony


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## Joel

Anyone know if we can get this Hy-san stuff in the Newcastle area?

Otherwise what are it's active ingredients and are there any comparable alternates?


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## pint of lager

Joel, have a look in pet barns that sell horsey products. Some horse owners use it as a way of cleaning out the horse's mouth. 

Another source is hydroponics shops. It is used as a sanitiser.

Read the ingredients. It should be hydrogen peroxide, silver ions and distilled water. The higher the concentration of hydrogen peroxide the better.

You want a product recommended for treating drinking water, which should mean it is made from food grade products.


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## sosman

One thing I haven't been able to reconcile is the sanitation effect of H2O2.

On the one hand I remember using when I was young as a mouth rinse for cuts or whatever (my mum thought the stuff was magic.). I have always thought that it was a very effective anti bacterial due to its oxidising action.

On the other hand, last time I looked, I couldn't find much regarding its application commercially for sanitation (that's not to say I looked in all the right places). Also, sodium percarbonate, which is supposed to release 15% or more H2O2 into solution, is not really promoted as a sanitizer but you would think it is due to the amount of H2O2 it releases.

Anyone have anything more authoritative on this? I haven't googled just now so maybe there is more stuff on this topic since I last looked.

The only link relating to this I referenced on brewiki.org was http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7&dopt=Abstract


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## Keifer

Can't help you with a source for the Hydrogen Peroxide consentrate, but i bought a 1l bottle of iodophor for $25 from esb ( http://www.esbeer.com.au/category41_1.htm ) and i rekon that'l last me for a looooong time


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## pint of lager

Googling around found this product, Hersil, which is 50% hydrogen peroxide and silver ions.

Their website includes detailed discussion about using it within a brewery. Hersil link.


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## Ross

pint of lager said:


> Googling around found this product, Hersil, which is 50% hydrogen peroxide and silver ions.
> 
> Their website includes detailed discussion about using it within a brewery. Hersil link.
> [post="117892"][/post]​



Very, very similar product to Hysan, which I use for all my sanitation, as mentioned before.

cheers Ross...


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## andrewl

I have bought a no rinse sanitiser from TCB (no affiliation etc), comes in 250ml bottle, 30mls i think treats 1l of water... haven't had a problem yet (touch wood)


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## tonydav

andrewl said:


> I have bought a no rinse sanitiser from TCB (no affiliation etc), comes in 250ml bottle, 30mls i think treats 1l of water... haven't had a problem yet (touch wood)
> [post="117909"][/post]​



I think that's Phosphoric acid. I've used it as well and think it's very effective. But at 30mls/L it works out pretty expensive if you use it a lot. (Around 8.3L for $6.50 works out at almost 80c/L vs 2.4c/L for Ross's mix). Grumpies also sells it but I'm not sure if it's a stronger mix. FWIW there is another thread about phosphoric acid and where to buy it (and issues with storage of the concentrated version).

Re the Iodophor; it says allow 20 minutes to sanitise which sounds like a pain, but again the price is pretty good.

tony


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## jgriffin

tonydav said:


> I think that's Phosphoric acid. I've used it as well and think it's very effective. But at 30mls/L it works out pretty expensive if you use it a lot. (Around 8.3L for $6.50 works out at almost 80c/L vs 2.4c/L for Ross's mix).


I think i paid $20 for 5L of phos acid (eliminate) nearly 2 years ago. You are supposed to use it at 20ml per 10L of water. I use it much stronger than that to be honest, yet still have some left. It's too early for me to work out, but is that like 0.8c per litre?
Plus the contact time is like only 60 secs or so.



> Grumpies also sells it but I'm not sure if it's a stronger mix. FWIW there is another thread about phosphoric acid and where to buy it (and issues with storage of the concentrated version).
> 
> Re the Iodophor; it says allow 20 minutes to sanitise which sounds like a pain, but again the price is pretty good.
> 
> tony
> [post="117954"][/post]​



The "storage" issue you mention was not to put he concentrated stuff in PET bottles as it may melt them. I've never had a problem with the supplied container that's a see through container though. Phos acid should also be much more stable than iodphor or Ross's stuff, as it basically is just an acid + surfactant and relies on the ph to do it's job.


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## Ducatiboy stu

The hersil site gives some very good info, and all the necceasary info on environmental effects...Going to get me some


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## pint of lager

Ducatiboy, I am not sure if Hersil is available in Australia. I posted that link in response to Sosman's question because it discussed in good detail hydrogen peroxide and silver ions in relation to brewing cleanliness. Ross has posted before about Hy-San.

The Hersil product is 50% hydrogen peroxide. The site does give dilution ratios for use. Whatever product you find, so long as they give the hydrogen peroxide content, you can scale it to give the same concentration as the diluted Hersil.

Morgans supply a product similar. It is 3% hydrogen peroxide, with their recommended dilution of 30ml per litre for sanitising equipment.

Make sure you are buying food grade products, not a plain gardening grade product.


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## Ducatiboy stu

Well they are in melbourne...


" _Food and Beverage

Processing Industry 

Herlisil FP

the non chlorine 

environmentally safe alternative

Reach For Life Intl. Pty. Ltd. 2/61 Rushdale Street Knoxfield Vic. 3180

Ph. 03 9763 3988 Fax 03 9763 3977_ " 


Might have to ring them.....


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## Ducatiboy stu

http://www.reach-for-life.com/

From the website, it comes in 25ltr drums....


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## Lukes

> Might have to ring them.....
> 
> 
> Ducatiboy stu,
> I drive right past this place on the way home from work.
> I will drop in one night this week and check it out for price.
> 
> Luke


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## Trough Lolly

Good one Luke - let us know how you get on. I'll be in Melb on business soon but I'm not sure if a 25Ltr drum will work as carry on luggage!!!!

TL


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## Wortgames

Does anyone have any news regarding a cheaper source for BrewShield / Hy-San / Sanitize / Hersil?

I'm keen to get hold of it in larger quantities than 250ml at a time, although 25 litres might be overdoing it just a tad...


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## Eugene

I love this site, I was about to post the same question, im sick of paying too much for 250ml of morgans to see most of it gone in three brews, so I started looking around, mu local chemist sell Hydrogen peroxide by the liter and 5 liter, now just dilute and good to go, cool.

this is my washing/ cleaning/ sanitizing procedure. 

All bottles, fermentors, spoons airlock etc are washed in the stainless laundry tub after it is first washed with bleach and Oxy action detergent, then it is sanitized with Neo pink, 

I wash everything in a HOT HOT HOT water, my hot water comes out at 72 d c at the tap, I use comercial dish washing liquid, long thick chemical gloves to block the heat and scrub scrub scrub.

everthing is then rinsed 3 times in 70 degree water and air dried.

then the fermentor and lid, and bits and bobs are sanitised with the morgans no rinse, it is then rinse of after 15 mins in 70 deg water, brew is mixed when all has cooled down.

througout the whole thing I spray my hands, the taps and any thing I may touch with a neo pink mix from an atomiser bottle.

bottle was is the same, but every one get two washes, then a two rinses/dry, then a sanitse and then a final rinse, I only do the sanitise and rinse as I am decanting into the bulk prime tube for bottleing.

So far I have had zero contamination, but I feel im going overboard with the wash / rinse / wash rinse / sanitise / rinse procedure.

your comments guys.

I really really want to make a drying box, say 1.5 cubic meters, heated by the element of a cloths dries, with a fan to circulate the air, temp at 70-80 degree, all glass items in the up side down on racks and let it rip, then cool and bottle, but room is a problem.


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## pint of lager

Use a good cleaner (Neopink, napisan or your dishwashing detergent), rinse thoroughly and air dry. 

Next time you need to use that bit of brew gear, use a no rinse sanitiser (hydrogen peroxide, phosphoric acid, iodine) at the correct concentration and contact time, this does not need to be rinsed if used correctly and use the brewgear wet, do not rinse a no rinse sanitiser as this brings it back to the sanitation level of your rinse water, be it good or bad... 

Your cleaning regime obviously works, continue with it if it makes you happy, but could be cut back a bit so you can spend more time brewing and consuming the end product.

Use in your spray bottle, a good no rinse sanitiser such as those listed already or 70% ethanol. Neopink is a bit harsh to be spraying around on your hands.


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## wessmith

Just caught up on this thread - in case nobody else has pointed it out, never use colloidial silver type sanitisers on surfaces in contact with yeast. Same goes for those filter cartridges with a carbon/silver content. The silver sticks around and is VERY effective at killing bugs on a long term basis. Unfortunately it also kills yeast cells.

Wes




pint of lager said:


> Use a good cleaner (Neopink, napisan or your dishwashing detergent), rinse thoroughly and air dry.
> 
> Next time you need to use that bit of brew gear, use a no rinse sanitiser (hydrogen peroxide, phosphoric acid, iodine) at the correct concentration and contact time, this does not need to be rinsed if used correctly and use the brewgear wet, do not rinse a no rinse sanitiser as this brings it back to the sanitation level of your rinse water, be it good or bad...
> 
> Your cleaning regime obviously works, continue with it if it makes you happy, but could be cut back a bit so you can spend more time brewing and consuming the end product.
> 
> Use in your spray bottle, a good no rinse sanitiser such as those listed already or 70% ethanol. Neopink is a bit harsh to be spraying around on your hands.


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## Ross

wessmith said:


> Just caught up on this thread - in case nobody else has pointed it out, never use colloidial silver type sanitisers on surfaces in contact with yeast. Same goes for those filter cartridges with a carbon/silver content. The silver sticks around and is VERY effective at killing bugs on a long term basis. Unfortunately it also kills yeast cells.
> 
> Wes



Very interesting Wes - the guy i buy my hydrogen peroxide/collodial silver sanitiser from is a keen brewer & he squirts a syringe full into the wort after adding the yeast to fire it along :blink: . I questioned the wisdom of this, but he reckons it gives him a really strong kick off to the ferment - I guess the oxygenating properties must outweigh the negatives, but can't say I've ever tried it.

cheers Ross


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## Lindsay Dive

Have a read of this,

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelate...s/silverad.html

I don't think I'd be squirting it anywhere near yeast.

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## kook

wessmith said:


> Just caught up on this thread - in case nobody else has pointed it out, never use colloidial silver type sanitisers on surfaces in contact with yeast. Same goes for those filter cartridges with a carbon/silver content. The silver sticks around and is VERY effective at killing bugs on a long term basis. Unfortunately it also kills yeast cells.
> 
> Wes



Does this include using carbon/silver filters pre-boil? I've just installed a two stage water filter for my HLT which uses one of these.


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## MHB

Silver has been an interesting question for some time, the makers of the Shield type products (peroxide/silver/stabiliser) use Silver Nitrate.
The Silver in silver Silver Nitrate will combine with free Chlorine to form insoluble Silver Chloride; this will precipitate in no time. Silver Chloride is if the memory is working, is what is used to define "Insoluble" (ksp 10^-19, but it's been a long time so dont quote me).
There will be enough free Cl around to precipitate out the Silver in a very stable non reactive form, there is I think no need to worry about the traces of silver in commercial sanitiser, there will always be enough salt (NaCl) around to get rid of it for us.

The silver in water purifiers is there to stop the growth of algae and bacteria, the amount that comes out in the water (Elutes) is minuscule, until the filter is exhausted then you see a rise in the silver elution, this is a reason you shouldnt push a Silver/Carbon filter too far, the other obvious one is that by this time it isnt filtering.

MHB


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## Wortgames

So is the silver in BrewShield / Herlisil etc worth getting excited about? Or would plain hydrogen peroxide do the trick perfectly well without it?

EDIT: just found that according to the website:

_Manufactured using a patented process which enables the stable combination of Hydrogen Peroxide and Silver Ions. This combination of H2O2 and Silver Ions results in a synergistic effect which gives the Herlisil a *efficacy of up to 15 times greater than the equivalent hydrogen peroxide.* The Australian Medical Health & Research Council has recommended the use of this product for the batch disinfection of Potable Water at a maximum dose of 35 ppm!_

also, not sure if others found this, but there's a link to brewery-specific data for Herlisil here: http://www.reach-for-life.com/Herlisil/Test_docs/H8466.pdf

I've noticed there is a vent in the lid of BrewShield, a little hole with what looks like a paper filter underneath - any idea what this is for?!

Also, assuming we could get plain, food grade stuff from a chemical supplier, how would hydrogen peroxide compare with phosphoric acid for brewers? eg, contact times, shelf life, staining / corrosion etc?

And if we could get our hands on 25L of Herlisil, anyone in Melbourne interested in a 5-way split?!


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## Darren

Wortgames said:


> So is the silver in BrewShield / Herlisil etc worth getting excited about? Or would plain hydrogen peroxide do the trick perfectly well without it?
> 
> I've also noticed there is a vent in the lid of BrewShield, a little hole with what looks like a paper filter underneath - any idea what this is for?!
> 
> Finally, assuming we can get plain, food grade stuff from a chemical supplier, how would hydrogen peroxide compare with phosphoric acid for brewers? eg, contact times, shelf life, staining / corrosion etc?




Wortgames,

The vent is just that, to ensure that bottle does not acumulate pressure.
Shelf life is pretty good for conc H2O2. The 30% stock will rip the skin off your fingers in seconds so be careful with it.

cheers

Darren


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## MHB

Hi Wortgames

The silver is very effective when used as a rinse or spray, when it gets into wort or too much chlorinated tap water for that matter; it converts to an insoluble form. So it won't cause any problems to the yeast (in reasonable doses).
So if you are using it as a contact steriliser the silver is very effective, so is the peroxide - but together you get a double whammy. The silver remains effective even when the peroxide has dried and converted to water and oxygen, so yes I like the combination and think it's very effective. 

The little hole in the top of the bottle is a vent, covered with a semipermeable membrane. This is to allow oxygen to escape; Hydrogen peroxide slowly converts back into oxygen and water, the makers add a stabiliser (I think its sodium thiosulphate, again old memories) but it still slowly degrades and gases off, the vent prevents a pressure build-up.

No doubt there are plenty of alternatives out there and they will all have their pros and cons. But I like the shield/sanitize type products.
The combination is better than just peroxide, as for some other products mentioned; it is not corrosive like acids, nor flammable like alcohol.
It's safe, easy to use, reasonably priced and easily available.

PS
Mr D Posted while I was still typing, good point Darren.

Conc. H2O2 is very dangerous. Good for rocket fuel, bleaching paper and yep will rip your skin off.

Cheers, ya just gota love industrial strength.

MHB


MHB


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## Wortgames

Cool, thanks guys - I'm liking the Herlisil type sanitiser more and more.

They list its ingredients as:

hydrogen peroxide 50%
complex silver ions <0.09%
phosphoric acid as H2PO4 <1ppm
water to 100%

MSDS states to wear gloves and describes it as 'moderate corrosive and irritant' to skin, yet the dilution rate is between 5 - 100ml per litre depending on application, which would appear to make it pretty similar to Morgan's Sanitize at 60ml per litre - does this sound right?


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## johnno

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well they are in melbourne...
> " _Food and Beverage
> 
> Processing Industry
> 
> Herlisil FP
> 
> the non chlorine
> 
> environmentally safe alternative
> 
> Reach For Life Intl. Pty. Ltd. 2/61 Rushdale Street Knoxfield Vic. 3180
> 
> Ph. 03 9763 3988 Fax 03 9763 3977_ "
> Might have to ring them.....




I just got of the phone to these dudes and the 20 litre drum is $385 including GST.

They also sell the 1 litre safe bottles to store it in for 70cents a pop.

This stuff is awesome. 

The solution is 50 ml per 1000 litrs so it will last a long long time.

If there was enough interest in Melbourne this would be a good way to go for a great no rinse sanitiser.

$385/20 is 19.95 if my calcs are correct.

I would definately be in for a couple of litres.

chers
johnno


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## Ducatiboy stu

I use 50% conc H202 and put about 20ml into a 1ltr spray bottle. It stings like hell if you get it onot a cut, and foams up .

The made up solution lasts about 1 week and actually produces bubbles, much like lemonade bubbles in the bottle. I actually have top loosen the spray bottle top because the pressure forces to liquid out of the spray head.

Took me ages to work out why my bottle was slowly getting empty ( or less full ). After a week the bottle would be half empty

It also makes a good water treatment. I filled my ferm up with tank water and added 50ml of H2O2 and after a few hrs you could notice the difference in coulour of the water.Turned the water crystal clear.

Its good stuff. and only cost $12ltr on conc form


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## Wortgames

Good work Johnno, $20 a litre for the good stuff sounds like pretty good value.

I'm not sure about 50ml per 1000 litres - is that what they said? According to the MSDS for Herlisil the dilution rate is 'between 5 - 100ml per litre'. Maybe the lower rate is for sanitising the actual brewing liquor (ie for human consumption)?

I'm definitely keen for a litre or two regardless, but I'd be really interested to know a bit more about how long it stays effective, both as a concentrate in the vented bottle and once made up into solution?

_edit: according to the 'technical bulletin - Herlisil FP in breweries', they suggest adding it into water at the following rates:

*Spray and area sanitation:* 0.5% - 1% concentration (ie 5-10ml per litre)
*Spray and area disinfection:* 4% - 6% concentration (ie 40-60ml per litre)
*Volume (or batch) sanitation:* 30-100mg/L (ie 0.3-1ml per 10L / 3-10ml per 100L / 30-100ml per 1000L)._


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## johnno

Wortgames said:


> Good work Johnno, $20 a litre for the good stuff sounds like pretty good value.
> 
> I'm not sure about 50ml per 1000 litres - is that what they said? According to the MSDS for Herlisil the dilution rate is 'between 5 - 100ml per litre'. Maybe the lower rate is for sanitising the actual brewing liquor (ie for human consumption)?
> 
> I'm definitely keen for a litre or two regardless, but I'd be really interested to know a bit more about how long it stays effective, both as a concentrate in the vented bottle and once made up into solution?




Hi Wortgames,
unfortunately in my excitement I forgot to ask about shelf life once made up etc.

He did mention that that a lot of European Breweries use it. 

It is a good price but someone has to organise it then it has to be picked up, then split into litres. Lots of running around.

I just got of the phone to another mob where I have shopped before (Advance chemicals) and they do not have any with the silver ions in it. They do offer a 50% Hydrogen Peroxide mix though. Which is fairly cheap.

One thing he did keep telling me though was bout this stuff called Per citric acid and its more concentrated form per acidic acid? It is supposed to be no rinse as well.

Has anyone ever used this stuff?

At the moment as I am in need of some more no rinse sanitiser I may just get another litre of 85% Phosphoric acid ($10 litre) and a couple of kilos of 100% Sodium percarbonate ($10 kg).

I have found the phos acid to be very good and whilst the herisil sounds awesome it will be a fair bit of farting around getting it organised.

cheers
johnno


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## Lukes

I never did get down to check this stuff out last year :blink: .


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## Wortgames

Hi Johnno, I'm happy to take over the farting around if you like - hopefully we can get enough folks interested.

I reckon this Herlisil is the good stuff, from what I can tell it is the same stuff as Brewshield and Morgan's Sanitize - but those products MAY be pre-diluted, as Sanitize gives a dilution rate of 30ml per litre.

So we just need 10 folks to buy 2L each at $40. That's enough to make 40L of disinfectant, or up to 400L of spray sanitiser!

Assuming Johnno and myself are in, we just need another 8 brewers in Melbourne who want to get stocked up with top notch sanitiser.

Who's in?


edit: technical info here


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## johnno

Wortgames said:


> Hi Johnno, I'm happy to take over the farting around if you like - hopefully we can get enough folks interested.
> 
> I reckon this Herlisil is the good stuff, from what I can tell it is the same stuff as Brewshield and Morgan's Sanitize - but those products MAY be pre-diluted, as Sanitize gives a dilution rate of 30ml per litre.
> 
> So we just need 10 folks to buy 2L each at $40. That's enough to make 40L of disinfectant, or up to 400L of spray sanitiser!
> 
> Assuming Johnno and myself are in, we just need another 8 brewers in Melbourne who want to get stocked up with top notch sanitiser.
> 
> Who's in?




Hi wortgames,
Yes i would be in on that. I would even be happy with 1 litre if it comes down to it and there is a lot of interest.

Maybe give him a call (his name is Martin) and confirm shelf life etc.

Thanks for taking over as I am quite busy at the moment.

cheers
johnno


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## RobW

Wortgames said:


> Hi Johnno, I'm happy to take over the farting around if you like - hopefully we can get enough folks interested.
> 
> I reckon this Herlisil is the good stuff, from what I can tell it is the same stuff as Brewshield and Morgan's Sanitize - but those products MAY be pre-diluted, as Sanitize gives a dilution rate of 30ml per litre.
> 
> So we just need 10 folks to buy 2L each at $40. That's enough to make 40L of disinfectant, or up to 400L of spray sanitiser!
> 
> Assuming Johnno and myself are in, we just need another 8 brewers in Melbourne who want to get stocked up with top notch sanitiser.
> 
> Who's in?
> edit: technical info here



Me, sounds like a good buy.


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## Ross

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I use 50% conc H202 and put about 20ml into a 1ltr spray bottle. It stings like hell if you get it onot a cut, and foams up .



Bloody hell Stu!!! I use a 12% H2O2 solution that's then diluted to 1ml/L (max 5ml/L)
You are using that at way over the need concentration...

cheers Ross


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## Lukes

I,m in for 2ltrs.
Don't forget the bottle's @ 70 cents to store it.

:beerbang: 

- Luke


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## Guest Lurker

johnno said:


> One thing he did keep telling me though was bout this stuff called Per citric acid and its more concentrated form per acidic acid? It is supposed to be no rinse as well.
> 
> Has anyone ever used this stuff?



I think you are referring to peracetic acid. Good sanitiser, also for removing beer stone etc. Its pretty nasty stuff, full on protective clothing when using. Dont know if its true, but supposedly there is a brewer in Perth with only one working eye from using it.


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## Wortgames

The bottles are included in the $40 - and I stand to make a tidy profit of 5c a litre on the whole lot...

Mwahahahaha... :super:


OK, so we've got:

Johnno
Me
RobW
Luke

all in for 2L - so there's 6 more lots available...


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## Ross

johnno said:


> I just got of the phone to these dudes and the 20 litre drum is $385 including GST.
> 
> They also sell the 1 litre safe bottles to store it in for 70cents a pop.
> 
> This stuff is awesome.
> 
> The solution is 50 ml per 1000 litrs so it will last a long long time.
> 
> If there was enough interest in Melbourne this would be a good way to go for a great no rinse sanitiser.
> 
> $385/20 is 19.95 if my calcs are correct.
> 
> I would definately be in for a couple of litres.
> 
> chers
> johnno



Johnno,

Basically the same product I buy up here called Hysan. I can't recommend this product high enough.
Totally odourless, tasteless & no annoying staining.
Lasts longer if used with RO water & needs to be stored out of direct sunlight. So don't store in a clear bottle.

Cheers Ross


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## johnno

Ross said:


> Johnno,
> 
> Basically the same product I buy up here called Hysan. I can't recommend this product high enough.
> Totally odourless, tasteless & no annoying staining.
> Lasts longer if used with RO water & needs to be stored out of direct sunlight. So don't store in a clear bottle.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Hi Ross,
yes it does sound like excellent stuff.

Whilst I have been happy to use bleach and phosphoric acid till now, I think it is good to change your sanitiser over time as I am always worried about germs building up immunity and causing problems.

cheers
johnno


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## warrenlw63

Guest Lurker said:


> supposedly there is a brewer in Perth with only one working eye from using it.



And he says hi!  

I'll go 1 litre at $20 if anybody's willing to split one down the middle. 2 litres of that stuff would last an eternity and that's too long for me. I'd rather use it in conjunction with iodophor to shock my gear.

Sorry to go tightarse on yas. B) 

Warren -


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## Doogiechap

I also have/ use a similar product called HuwaSan from Jaysol Chemicles in Perth. IIRC it was about $35 for 5 litres.
100:1 dilution ratio at maximum, Htydrogen Peroxide based with silver ion which apparently stabilises it so shelf life is long term (years if no sunlight).
The main use that this stuff is marketed towards is spraying on fresh veges during packaging/ processing.
No nasty batches from my brewery so I'm happy  
Highly reccomended.


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## Ducatiboy stu

As I said earlier, made up solution is good for a week, after 2 it is basically water


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## warrenlw63

That's what worries me Stu. No way of knowing.

That's where I prefer iodophor... Colour goes and so does its effectiveness. At least you get the visual indicator though. :unsure: 

Warren -


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## RobW

warrenlw63 said:


> And he says hi!
> 
> I'll go 1 litre at $20 if anybody's willing to split one down the middle. 2 litres of that stuff would last an eternity and that's too long for me. I'd rather use it in conjunction with iodophor to shock my gear.
> 
> Sorry to go tightarse on yas. B)
> 
> Warren -



I'll split with you Warren. I was thinking 2 litres would take ages to use as well.


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## winkle

I've been diluting the 10% Hydrogen peroxide I got from the chemist at around 1 part to two parts water, is that still too strong? By the way, you can get some funny looks these days asking for bulk quantities of Hydrogen peroxide, or stronger percentages :blink:


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## razz

warrenlw63 said:


> That's what worries me Stu. No way of knowing.
> 
> That's where I prefer iodophor... Colour goes and so does its effectiveness. At least you get the visual indicator though. :unsure:
> 
> Warren -


FWIW I find that leaving it stored in my fridge gives me an extra couple of weeks before it looses its colour.


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## warrenlw63

RobW said:


> I'll split with you Warren. I was thinking 2 litres would take ages to use as well.



Gavel goes down Rob. :beerbang: 

Consider it done. B) 

Warren -


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## Wortgames

I don't think there's really any milage in extended storage of the made up solution - it's just handy to know whether it is still good the following day for example - and there is bugger all info on the Brewshield or Sanitize products. A week is more than enough if you ask me!

As for Iodophor, don't get me wrong I love the stuff - it's just no good for drenching around the place on brewday (unless you want everything to go yellow). It also has a relatively long recommended contact time (5mins) and is rapidly deactivated above room temperature - both of which leave it lacking a bit for your average home brewer in my book.


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## Ross

Wortgames said:


> I don't think there's really any milage in extended storage of the made up solution - it's just handy to know whether it is still good the following day for example - and there is bugger all info on the Brewshield or Sanitize products. A week is more than enough if you ask me!
> 
> As for Iodophor, don't get me wrong I love the stuff - it's just no good for drenching around the place on brewday (unless you want everything to go yellow). It also has a relatively long recommended contact time (5mins) and is rapidly deactivated above room temperature - both of which leave it lacking a bit for your average home brewer in my book.



The Hersil/Hysan products will last many months diluted in a spray bottle. 
I just fill a 1L spray bottle & remix once empty. At a mix rate of 1ml/L I don't bother reusing it.

cheers Ross


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## drsmurto

winkle said:


> I've been diluting the 10% Hydrogen peroxide I got from the chemist at around 1 part to two parts water, is that still too strong? By the way, you can get some funny looks these days asking for bulk quantities of Hydrogen peroxide, or stronger percentages :blink:



Prob cos Hydrogen peroxide + your missus' nail polish remover = KABOOM! 

Apparently blows the arse end off double decker buses..... :blink:


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## winkle

DrSmurto said:


> Prob cos Hydrogen peroxide + your missus' nail polish remover = KABOOM!
> 
> Apparently blows the arse end off double decker buses..... :blink:



No wanted on trans-atlantic flights either apparently


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## Ducatiboy stu

But you make rockets with the stuff... :super:


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## jendres

I've been looking for a cheaper and easier sanitiser as well.

Have you guys considered quaternary ammonium compounds? Jaysol has a large range of them available including a no-rinse one KILDET.

https://www.clayko.com.au/jasol/product.asp...ductGroupID=205
https://www.clayko.com.au/jasol/products.as...ductGroupID=205

Wikipedia has this in the antiseptic article:
Quaternary ammonium compounds
Also known as Quats or QAC's, include the chemicals benzalkonium chloride (BAC), cetyl trimethylammonium bromide (CTMB), cetylpyridinium chloride (Cetrim), cetylpyridinium chloride (CPC) and benzethonium chloride (BZT). Benzalkonium chloride is used in some pre-operative skin disinfectants (conc. 0.05 - 0.5%) and antiseptic towels. The antimicrobial activity of Quats is inactivated by anionic surfactants, such as soaps. Related disinfectants include chlorhexidine and octenidine.

So it looks like you would need to use the cationic cleaners rather than normal soap, which could be expensive. Or maybe a good rinse after cleaning might be enough.


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## reVoxAHB

An unmentioned side-benefit to Iodophor is that a drop can be used to test for starch conversion at the end of your mash (obviously, in a separate test tray or white saucer to be discarded).


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## jianziyisheng

[报价名称='血红蛋白'日期='06年12月18日，上午10时38'后= '173186']
银一直是有趣的问题一段时间，盾牌型产品的制造商（过氧化物/银/稳定剂）的使用硝酸银。
中银硝酸银将与游离氯结合形成不溶性氯化银银，这将会为没有时间。氯化银是，如果内存的工作，是用来定义不溶性（ksp 10 ^ -19，但它是一个漫长的时间，所以不要引用我的）。
将有足够的可用氯左右，沉淀出在一个非常稳定的非活性形式的银，但我觉得没有必要担心商业sanitiser银的痕迹，但将永远存在，以获得足够的盐（NaCl）摆脱它为我们。

在净水银都以阻止藻类和细菌的生长，其数额是出来的水（洗脱）是微不足道的，直到用尽过滤器，那么你看到在银色洗脱上升，这是一个原因，你不应该把银/碳过滤器太远，另外明显的是，这一次不是过滤。

血红蛋白
[/报价]
Hello, Dear Sir: 
I am a friend of China, I have been looking for you to say "Herlisil type sanitisen" products,I need the product components are: hydrogen peroxide 50% + Ag + 0.09%. Are you the distribution of "sanitisen" merchants do? I need a large number of such products imported from abroad and hope to cooperate with you. Thank you very much! The Earth is so big that they can recognize you are very happy! Is also a fate. Sincerely waiting for your reply, please send an e-mail to my e-mail. Welcome to China a guest! I do not understand English, there is the wrong place please forgive me. 
My Contact: Phone +8613854452227 E-mail: [email protected]
Sincerely, Mr. songzengke


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## jianziyisheng

[报价名称='Wortgames'日期='二○○六年十二月十八日，日下午11:06'后= '173401']
冷静，感谢球员-我喜欢的Herlisil类型sanitiser越来越多。

他们列出其成分为：

过氧化氢50％
复杂的银离子0.09％
作为磷酸二氢1ppm的
水至100％

英文名国家戴上手套，并描述为'有温和的腐蚀性和刺激性'皮肤，但稀释率为5 - 100毫升，每公升根据申请，这似乎使相当类似的每升60毫升摩根的消毒-不这个声音吗？
[/报价]
Hello, Dear Sir: 
I am a friend of China, I have been looking for you to say "Herlisil type sanitisen" products,I need the product components are: hydrogen peroxide 50% + Ag + 0.09%. Are you the distribution of "sanitisen" merchants do? I need a large number of such products imported from abroad and hope to cooperate with you. Thank you very much! The Earth is so big that they can recognize you are very happy! Is also a fate. Sincerely waiting for your reply, please send an e-mail to my e-mail. Welcome to China a guest! I do not understand English, there is the wrong place please forgive me. 
My Contact: Phone +8613854452227 E-mail: [email protected]
Sincerely, Mr. songzengke


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## peas_and_corn

Sorry, I spent my money on a great rolex deal I got in my email.


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## Pennywise

jianziyisheng said:


> The Earth is so big that they can recognize you are very happy!



I can get the gist of what he/she's trying to say, but WTF is with this bit?


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## samhighley

Homebrewer79 said:


> I can get the gist of what he/she's trying to say, but WTF is with this bit?



Chinese are prone to flattery in business dealings as a method of winning favor, so I can only assume it is supposed to be some sort of flattery.


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## Phoney

A bit of Chinese philosophy never goes astray in spam.


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## jonocarroll

peas_and_corn said:


> Sorry, I spent my money on a great rolex deal I got in my email.


 :huh: 

I hate spam as much as the next bloke, but the post you are responding to actually looks like it could be someone genuinely looking for this product (Herlisil) as opposed to selling something. It appears they've used an online translator after googling the product and getting the hits for the previous mentions.

Are some of you perhaps a little trigger happy?


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## Adamt

Yeah, it definitely looks like a genuine message.

HB79: I think that might mean something along the lines of: "I found this post through an Internet search"


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## drsmurto

QuantumBrewer said:


> Are some of you perhaps a little trigger happy?



trigger happy?

On this forum?

Surely you jest? :huh:


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## jonocarroll

DrSmurto said:


> trigger happy?
> 
> On this forum?
> 
> Surely you jest? :huh:


SPAM!!!

Oh, wait. right.


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## Pennywise

Adamt said:


> Yeah, it definitely looks like a genuine message.
> 
> HB79: I think that might mean something along the lines of: "I found this post through an Internet search"




I need to brush up on my Chinese translation :lol:


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## peas_and_corn

Google translate gives this as the Chinese parts from the two posts-



> Silver has always been interesting question for some time, shield-type product manufacturers (peroxide / silver / stabilizer) the use of silver nitrate.
> Bank of silver nitrate combines with free chlorine to form insoluble silver chloride silver, it will not have time. Silver chloride, if the memory work is used to define "insoluble" (ksp 10 ^ -19, but it is a long time, so do not quote me).
> Will have sufficient available chlorine is about to precipitate out in a very stable non-active form of silver, but I think there is no need to worry about commercial sanitiser traces of silver, but will always exist, in order to get enough salt (NaCl) get rid of it for us .
> 
> Silver in the water are to prevent the growth of algae and bacteria, which amount is out of the water (elution) is negligible, until the exhaust filters, then you see an increase in the silver elution, which is a reason, you do not should be silver / carbon filters too far away, another is clear that, this time is not a filter.
> 
> Hemoglobin







> Cool, thank the players - I like Herlisil type of sanitiser more and more.
> 
> They are listed in the ingredients as follows:
> 
> Hydrogen Peroxide 50%
> The complex silver ions, "0.09%
> As a dihydrogen phosphate "1ppm of
> Water to 100%
> 
> English name of the country to wear gloves, and described as 'moderate corrosive and irritating' skin, but the dilution rate for a 5 - 100 ml per liter according to the application, it seems quite similar to 60 ml per liter Morgan Disinfection - not this voice?


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## jonocarroll

peas_and_corn said:


> Google translate gives this as the Chinese parts from the two posts-
> 
> Silver has always been interesting question for some time, shield-type product manufacturers (peroxide / silver / stabilizer) the use of silver nitrate.
> Bank of silver nitrate combines with free chlorine to form insoluble silver chloride silver, it will not have time. Silver chloride, if the memory work is used to define "insoluble" (ksp 10 ^ -19, but it is a long time, so do not quote me).
> Will have sufficient available chlorine is about to precipitate out in a very stable non-active form of silver, but I think there is no need to worry about commercial sanitiser traces of silver, but will always exist, in order to get enough salt (NaCl) get rid of it for us .
> 
> Silver in the water are to prevent the growth of algae and bacteria, which amount is out of the water (elution) is negligible, until the exhaust filters, then you see an increase in the silver elution, which is a reason, you do not should be silver / carbon filters too far away, another is clear that, this time is not a filter.
> 
> Hemoglobin
> 
> Cool, thank the players - I like Herlisil type of sanitiser more and more.
> 
> They are listed in the ingredients as follows:
> 
> Hydrogen Peroxide 50%
> The complex silver ions, "0.09%
> As a dihydrogen phosphate "1ppm of
> Water to 100%
> 
> English name of the country to wear gloves, and described as 'moderate corrosive and irritating' skin, but the dilution rate for a 5 - 100 ml per liter according to the application, it seems quite similar to 60 ml per liter Morgan Disinfection - not this voice?


As one might expect - these were the quotes that got translated from MHB's (MHB = methemoglobin?) and Wortgames' posts;



MHB said:


> Silver has been an interesting question for some time, the makers of the Shield type products (peroxide/silver/stabiliser) use Silver Nitrate.
> The Silver in silver Silver Nitrate will combine with free Chlorine to form insoluble Silver Chloride; this will precipitate in no time. Silver Chloride is if the memory is working, is what is used to define "Insoluble" (ksp 10^-19, but it's been a long time so don't quote me).
> There will be enough free Cl around to precipitate out the Silver in a very stable non reactive form, there is I think no need to worry about the traces of silver in commercial sanitiser, there will always be enough salt (NaCl) around to get rid of it for us.
> 
> The silver in water purifiers is there to stop the growth of algae and bacteria, the amount that comes out in the water (Elutes) is minuscule, until the filter is exhausted then you see a rise in the silver elution, this is a reason you shouldn't push a Silver/Carbon filter too far, the other obvious one is that by this time it isn't filtering.
> 
> MHB





Wortgames said:


> Cool, thanks guys - I'm liking the Herlisil type sanitiser more and more.
> 
> They list its ingredients as:
> 
> hydrogen peroxide 50%
> complex silver ions <0.09%
> phosphoric acid as H2PO4 <1ppm
> water to 100%
> 
> MSDS states to wear gloves and describes it as 'moderate corrosive and irritant' to skin, yet the dilution rate is between 5 - 100ml per litre depending on application, which would appear to make it pretty similar to Morgan's Sanitize at 60ml per litre - does this sound right?



I doubt that spammers quote text, reference it, then ask where to purchase the product mentioned.

Has anyone answered that guy's question?


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## peas_and_corn

I'll answer it-

They are not distributors of those sanitisers.


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## Doogiechap

Dear Mr. songzengke,
Whilst the Herlisil seems not to be available.
This Australian Supplier does sell the equivalent product.
Cheers
Doug


親愛的先生songzengke， 
雖然Herlisil似乎沒有可用。 
這家澳大利亞供應商不出售同等產品。 
乾杯
道

這鏈接對供貨商/產品。


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## Peteoz77

Too big of a thread to read all the way through.. so if this has already been said... I apolgise.

I use 5 Star Chemicals company's "Star San" It's AWESOME stuff!

1 oz makes 5 gallons of sanitiser.
It stores for MONTHS once mixed
It's No Rinse!
If you don't rinse it out, it actually acts as a Yeast Nutrient.
1 X 32 oz container costs about $35 and should last the hardest core brewer at least 5 years.
AND!!..... You can get it from Craftbrewer!


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