# RecipeDB - Montheiths Origional Ale Clone



## Tony

Montheiths Origional Ale Clone  Ale - English Pale Ale  All Grain               6 Votes        Brewer's Notes I have found myself buying this beer as a 'take along to BBQ' drink, and really like the malt and hop ballance with notes of blackcurrent and burnt sugar. Goes really well with food. So after reading up their speel on the net and a few bottles to taste and evaluate, i came up with this. I did a side by side that i will elaborate on in the related thread, but i actually think its better! Lovin' the Pacific Gem!1.044, 22 IBU 21 EBCmash in 2L/kg for 10 min @ 52 degInfuse up to 66 deg for 60 minInfuse up to 72 deg for 10 min and mash out at this.Ferment with a nice dryish english ale yeast at about 20 deg.   Malt & Fermentables    % KG Fermentable      8 kg TF Golden Promise Pale Malt    1 kg BB Wheat Malt    0.5 kg TF Dark Crystal    0.1 kg Bairds Light Chocolate Malt       Hops    Time Grams Variety Form AA      50 g Pacific Gem (Pellet, 15.0AA%, 0mins)    20 g Pacific Gem (Pellet, 15.0AA%, 10mins)    20 g Pacific Gem (Pellet, 15.0AA%, 40mins)       Yeast     100 ml White Labs WLP023 - Burton Ale       Misc     5 g Irish Moss         54L Batch Size    Brew Details   Original Gravity 1.044 (calc)   Final Gravity 1.012 (calc)   Bitterness 18.4 IBU   Efficiency 80%   Alcohol 4.15%   Colour 27 EBC   Batch Size 54L     Fermentation   Primary 7 days   Secondary 7 days   Conditioning 4 days


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## Tony

here are some comparison Photos:

Mine is on the Right..... its a touch lighter. Promash said colour would be 21 EBC but the AHB recipe database says 27. Mine is more like 21 and id say the origional is closer to 25 ot 27 EBC. Close enough 












Mine deffinately held a better head!






But its all in the taste isnt it.

Mine was smoother, creamier, rounder in the finnish. Slightly more hop character. They both had the same burnt sugar and black current finnish, but the real thing had a touch of that "VB" mousy yeast funk, which suprised me. I hadnt noticed it before. Perhaps just a bit of mistreatment in transit id say but im wondering if i didnt notice it before cause i didnt have a side by side to try it with?

The Montheiths effort was a bit thinner too. Sort of a wateriness compared to mine, whic is in no way a heavy full boddied beer. Perhaps to get closser Pils would be a better base malt.

But to be honest..... my effort is very close and if its better, why change it 

cheers


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## Lecterfan

Hi Tony,

I'm also a fan of this beer as a lowish abv chugger... in your opinion how integral are the pacific gem hops?

Thanks.


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## Tony

not being a smart arse here....but what do you mean by intigral?

Are you wondering how important Pacific Gem is towards the character of the beer?

http://www.monteiths.co.nz/beers-and-cider...es/original-ale


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## Lecterfan

Tony said:


> http://www.monteiths.co.nz/beers-and-cider...es/original-ale



Cheers - laziness on my behalf. I guess it has never struck me as a particularly hoppy beer and thought I might be able to knock it out later this week without them specifically. If they are listed upfront like that though they must play a fair role...I might grab another 6 pack of it and re-evaluate my memory/palate for it. Thanks mate, sorry.


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## Tony

dont be sorry.....no such thing as a silly question 

Mine is a bit hoppier than the commercial one but the hoppiness really hides behind the dark caramel and burnt sugar you get from dark crystal malt. Its a deep dark fruit kind of hoppiness and doesnt really stick out like a brighter floral hop would.

But to be honnest, it really works. The flavours compliment each other and its a very easy drinking beer.

Ive had a couple people try mine and they say the same thing..... Ooooo thats different, but its good too


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## Lecterfan

Tony said:


> the hoppiness really hides behind the dark caramel and burnt sugar you get from dark crystal malt. Its a deep dark fruit kind of hoppiness and doesnt really stick out like a brighter floral hop would.



That'd be it - Looks like the 2kg of hops in the fridge need to take some time out while I order in some pacific gem haha! Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD

Pacific Gem is a great hop. Pacific Jade is less so. 

Easy ordering mistake to make. 

Recipe looks great Tony. Will do.


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## Camo1234

Tony, looks great! This is one of my favourite beers so definitely keen to give this a go!



I am only kicking off with my first AG on Tuesday with BIAB in an Urn.... What would you suggest as a mash schedule with BIAB in an Urn for this brew? Sorry, just not too sure what the "Infuse" steps are in your instructions :blink: 



I would definitely agree that yours looks to top the original by the picks!



Cheers... Camo


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## Tony

I was just drinking a glass of this and i thought.... thsi isnt 32 IBU...... its not that bitter.

I checked my records and i played with the recipe after i made it and upped the bitterness to more in line with an english bitter to see how much more hops it would take.

But all i used was a single 90g pack of hop flowers.... not the 110 i put in the recipe.

I have edited the recipe to reflect the true amounts and bitterness... which is 21 to 22, same as what the website says it should be.

Sorry folks


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## Camo1234

Hi Tony



Keen to hear your thoughts on the below recipe... I have played around with it in Beersmith to try and scale it down to BIAB in an Urn.... Would be great to receive any feedback re any changes you would suggest.


I have added my beersmith file image and the grains I will get from Craftbrewer.... I couldn't find the Bairds Light Chocolate Malt so have subbed in Chocolate Malt Pale (Thomas Fawcett)... Should this work?



Also, re Mash Schedule what would you suggest?



Cheers for your help.. Camo


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## Tony

looks fine mate.

I put a mash schedule in the recipe description i think

mash it around 65 to 66. I also gave mine a 10 min protein rest at 52 and stepped up to 72 after the mash rest as well.

cheers


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## Camo1234

Tony said:


> looks fine mate.
> 
> I put a mash schedule in the recipe description i think
> 
> mash it around 65 to 66. I also gave mine a 10 min protein rest at 52 and stepped up to 72 after the mash rest as well.
> 
> cheers




Hey Tony, one last question... Flowers or Pellets? I am ordering my ingrediants from CB and the flowers listed are 2005 crop whereas the pellets are 2010 crop..... I haven't used flowers before so just wondering what your thoughts are regarding which to go for given the difference in age of the flowers?

Cheers mate.

Cameron


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## Tony

I used flowers but either will do. Flowers just add that touch of creaminess i think but if your kettle doesnt have some sort of false bottom to keep them out of the pickup..... use pellets!

cheers

Edit: If your buying from CB, the hop flowers will have been cold stored and vac sealed so they will be as fresh as the day they were picked. Its exposure to air that kills them. Its the 05 crop flowers i used and they were still sticky and smelt awsome!


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## tiprya

Hey Tony - thanks for the recipe.

Would you suggest S04 or Notto or should I really track down a liquid yeast?


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## dcx3

Just a note for the other Pacific Gem lovers on this forum, i grabbed some of Nige's organic crop (08?) and i was blown away by the aroma they gave off.
Having used Gem in the past.... just highlighted how good this crop was.


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## Tony

tiprya said:


> Hey Tony - thanks for the recipe.
> 
> Would you suggest S04 or Notto or should I really track down a liquid yeast?



Mmmm SO-4 is a bit of a low anteuator and hop scrubber so i wouldnt use that
Noto......maybe...... but the thought doesnt get my juices flowing.

I was about to say perhaps a blend of both if you must use a dry but then i remembered this:

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4169

No affiliation and never used it but from what i have read i recon it would work.

If you use a liquid, use a dryish english strain like 1318, 1275, 1084 1028, 1098...... and the 1272 yanky II would work too.

I used the WLP023 burton ale cause i had it on hand and it needed to be used but any of these yeasts will make a great beer.

cheers


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## tiprya

Cheers Tony, I've got some 1084 so I might use that or try and grab something else.


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## Camo1234

Tony said:


> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4169
> 
> No affiliation and never used it but from what i have read i recon it would work.




This is what I am going to use... Brew day this weekend :icon_cheers:


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## Tony

has anyone had a shot at this yet?

In interested in peoples thoughts


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## Camo1234

Tony said:


> has anyone had a shot at this yet?
> 
> In interested in peoples thoughts




Hi Tony, had this one cubed for a few weeks and just put it down... I have given the Argon late hopping / no chill method a go for this one so will see how it goes.


Only my second AG so not sure what my feedback will help but very keen to see how it turns out.



I have used the CB Engligh Ale Dry Yeast and will ferment at 20c



Will let you know how she goes, planning on fermenting for 14 days and then crash chill for 7 and keg


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## Camo1234

Tony, this has been in the fermenter for 14 days now, 1.046 OG and 1.011 FG.... Now set for CC... I am planning on 3 days CC and then into the Keg so that I can be drinking this by Friday night....


I notice that you have 4 weeks of "Conditioning" in the recipe DB..... What do you consider "Conditioning"????


The hyro sample taseted absolutely amazing! Probably the first time I have polished off the whole hydro sample  


Was on a work trip to NZ last week and had a few Originals so very keen to try this one out on the weekend!


Will report back, Camo :beer:


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## Tony

Ahhhh 4 weeks conditioning...... that would be a stock AHB figure i didnt change.

your plan sounds fine.

Let me know what you think!

cheers


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## Camo1234

Tony..... This Beer Rocks! :beerbang: 

I have now found my house Brew!


This was my second AG as BIAB in an Urn.... I know I made some mistakes and have a few tweaks to do but this beer is unreal.

I kegged this on Wed and tried it on Thursday night and whilst it was nice it laked body and was a bit bland....... Today I tried it and it has balanced out well and is tasting unreal! 


I no chill and did not do the 0 min addition and tried the Aargon method for late hopping... I think I stuffed that part a bit so am going to just do the 0 min addition next time and maybe cube hop... It could do with a little more aroma, but considering the actual Monteiths Original is not in your face this is still pretty bloody good.


I am very happy with this to say the least!


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## doon

That looks sexy!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

First ever recipe from another brewer to go on my "to brew list".

Classy - this will satisfy my hoppy tastes (though I won't OTT it), but be something I can give to all my minions screaming for a british style beer to be brewed NOW! for 3 months' time -when the weather thinks about cooling down a little.

Stinking heck, it is steamy indoors atm.


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## Tony

great stuff camo...... I was very happy with the recipe, as were all who tasted it here. Im glad you liked it.

Cheers

Tony


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

@Tony (or Camo) - 1. What would the no-chill adjustments be (I don't normally no chill, but won't have time to get ice sorted before a brewday (hopefully tomorrow), and 2. For a single infusion mashing regime to get close enough, what mash temp would you choose? I'm thinking about 67 degrees, give or take, and hammer it with notto.

Goomba


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## Camo1234

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> @Tony (or Camo) - 1. What would the no-chill adjustments be (I don't normally no chill, but won't have time to get ice sorted before a brewday (hopefully tomorrow), and 2. For a single infusion mashing regime to get close enough, what mash temp would you choose? I'm thinking about 67 degrees, give or take, and hammer it with notto.
> 
> Goomba




Hey Goomba, I mashed at 66% and used did not do the 0 min addition but used the Aargon Method for the 0 min addition.... I am sure I didnt do that part properly though as it was my first attempt but this beer was amazing! Blew the keg a few nights ago so will be brewing this very soon..... In all honesty I am a massive fan of the actual Montieths original but I think this is better!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Camo1234 said:


> Hey Goomba, I mashed at 66% and used did not do the 0 min addition but used the Aargon Method for the 0 min addition.... I am sure I didnt do that part properly though as it was my first attempt but this beer was amazing! Blew the keg a few nights ago so will be brewing this very soon..... In all honesty I am a massive fan of the actual Montieths original but I think this is better!



How was the body? And the flavour?

I don't mind (from what I Remember) the MOA, but I told my brother I was brewing it as an Irish Red - he went out and bought a stubbie of MOA and said "watery, tasteless, bland" - given he's a euromegaswilllager drinker, that's a massive statement.

Final Qu - what did your OG/FG end up being? I want this to be a lower abv% (I have a 7.1% beer in the keg already) for drinking (not supping).

Cheers

Goomba


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## Tony

Camo1234 said:


> In all honesty I am a massive fan of the actual Montieths original but I think this is better!



 Exactly what i thought.

LRG...... i found my recipe had a better body with a smooth creaminess..... especially if you use whole flowers.

Id mash it at 66, Notto will leave it dryer that most other english yeasts but it will still be great!

cheers


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## tazman1967

Has anybody used another base malt ? Ive got a sack of Marris Otter FM, I was thinking of using this.
Cheers
Peter


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## Tony

will be fine.... do it!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I'm using MO.


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## Camo1234

Yeah I found this one to have more body than the actual one which i found made this a better beer than the orignal.


I used the Craft Brewer Dried English Ale Yeast and used the whole flowers.



Bloody hell... Now I am thirsty thinking about this but wont be brewing another one of these for a few weekends!


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## Tony

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> How was the body? And the flavour?
> 
> I don't mind (from what I Remember) the MOA, but I told my brother I was brewing it as an Irish Red - he went out and bought a stubbie of MOA and said "watery, tasteless, bland" - given he's a euromegaswilllager drinker, that's a massive statement.
> 
> Goomba



have a read of the 2nd post in this thread mate....... Its all there:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=858891


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## tazman1967

Ill be using MO as the base malt, instead of GP, the only reason is that I have a fresh sack of it here atm. Ill be using mainly TF malts and Wyeast 1098 British Ale. I was going to do a TTLA, but that is now on the back burner, so have bought this recipe forward to next W/End. Cant wait looks like another tasty brew coming up


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Tony said:


> have a read of the 2nd post in this thread mate....... Its all there:
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=858891



Thanks mate,

Makes a difference not reading it at work - I take in more stuff.

I remember you saying yours was creamier, but didn't notice you say "now the original seems mousey and watery" - that's enough for me.

I've altered the grain bill slightly - used TFFMMO as the base, and some red wheat (briess) for head retention.

Might use some wills, but I've got enough Pacific Gem flowers to do this right.

Goomba


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## Camo1234

Tony said:


> If you use a liquid, use a dryish english strain like 1318, 1275, 1084 1028, 1098...... and the 1272 yanky II would work too.
> 
> 
> cheers




Tony - OUt of the WYeast above what would be your pick for this one? Brewing it again soon so will grab some yeast as well... I have 1272 on hand but happy to get the right yeast for this as I will be keeping this one on tap for a while!


Camo


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## Tony

1275 is a great yeast with a dry but malty finish, but to be honest.... and i said this to a fellow brewer last night over a couple beers...... if i was told i could only ever use one yeast strain for all my brewing ever again, i would chose 1272


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## DKS

Tony said:


> has anyone had a shot at this yet?
> 
> In interested in peoples thoughts



Ive had acrack at this one Tony. Split 46lt into two cubes First one ready to keg and gas up tonight. Looking forward to reporting results. Heres recipe, might use dif yeast on the 2nd batch.


Tonys Monteiths Pale ( slight variants)
Special/Best/Premium Bitter 

Type: All Grain
Date: 21/04/2012 
Batch Size: 46.00 L
Brewer: Daz 
Boil Size: 51.58 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment 46 ltr 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.20 kg Pale Malt, Halcyon (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) Grain 51.41 % 
2.60 kg Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) Grain 31.82 % 
0.85 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 10.40 % 
0.43 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (216.7 EBC) Grain 5.26 % 
0.09 kg Pale Choc (500.0 EBC) Grain 1.10 % 
25.00 gm Pacific Gem [15.00 %] (40 min) Hops 17.5 IBU 
20.00 gm Pacific Gem [15.00 %] (10 min) Hops 5.8 IBU 
45.00 gm Pacific Gem [15.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
2.43 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
2.43 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc 
1 Pkgs West Yorkshire Ale (wyeast Labs #1469pc) [Cultured] Yeast-Ale 
Mash Profile
Mash Name: Full body 46lt Stepped Total Grain Weight: 8.17 kg 
Sparge Water: 20.14 L Grain Temperature: 18.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: -17.8 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Full body 46lt Stepped Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
20 min Step 1 Add 16.34 L of water at 61.2 C 52.0 C 
15 min Step 2 Add 2.86 L of water at 84.2 C 56.0 C 
45 min Step 3 Add 8.17 L of water at 98.4 C 67.0 C 
10 min Step Add 12.26 L of water at 99.3 C 76.0 C 


Allow a few points for NC 
1/2 batch use 1469 . Next half may change yeast. Dry hop or raise bitterness. 
Created with BeerSmith

Thanks mate. Cant wait to tuck in. 
Daz


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Keg just blew on my alteration on this:

*Monteiths Original Clone*
Irish Red Ale

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 29.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.850
Total Hops (g): 48.33
Original Gravity (OG): 1.044 (P): 11.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.32 %
Colour (SRM): 10.3 (EBC): 20.3
Bitterness (IBU): 21.4 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
5.000 kg Maris Otter Malt (85.47%)
0.500 kg Wheat Malt (8.55%)
0.300 kg Crystal 90 (5.13%)
0.050 kg Chocolate, Pale (0.85%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
10.7 g Pacific Gem Pellet (17.8% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.7 g Pacific Gem Pellet (17.8% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
26.9 g Pacific Gem Pellet (17.8% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (0.9 g/L)

Hop Tea in 2ndary with 20g Willamette.

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 65C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with S-189 (replacement for Notto that didn't take).

It was a pretty nice beer. I'm quite happy with Pacific Gem and kinda wished I didn't hop tea with Willamette, but it was an "on the fly" adjustment for better efficiency needing dilution.

Mine ended up considerably lighter than tony's pic - dodgy iPhone pic warning (the ads lie):







I think I would have liked this maltier and upped the early bitterness just a tad.


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## tazman1967

I cracked the keg of this at the weekend.... :icon_drool2: 
Lovely soft hop aroma from the Pacific Gem Flowers, blackcurrant undertones backed up with the burnt sugar toffee aromas from the malt..
I think that this is better than the original, will be making this a regular.
Thanks for your recipe Tony.

Peter


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## Tony

tazman1967 said:


> I cracked the keg of this at the weekend.... :icon_drool2:
> Lovely soft hop aroma from the Pacific Gem Flowers, blackcurrant undertones backed up with the burnt sugar toffee aromas from the malt..
> I think that this is better than the original, will be making this a regular.
> Thanks for your recipe Tony.
> 
> Peter



Thats exactly what i thought...... better!

not a problem on the recipe..... i just couldn't keep that one to myself


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## [email protected]

Tony,I wholeheartedly agree with Peter.Thanks for sharing this one...I spent a bit of time in NZ a few years back and really enjoyed the Monteiths. Although I haven't brewed one yet, I will be trying this one as soon as I am back in my swamp brewery.
Cheers
swampy


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## jberries

Hi Tony, I am guessing the 007 yeast would work for this brew too, yes?


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## Tony

sorry mate...... what is the 007 yeast ?


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## jberries

Sorry should have been more specific, WLP007 as in here

http://www.brewshop.co.nz/dry-english-ale-yeast-wlp007.html


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## Tony

Ahhh.... yes it will work fine.


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## warra48

I'm halfway through a bottle of this, brewed as a partial, by fellow AHB member waggastew.

I'm really impressed. The head on the beer is very fine and dense, and just lasts and lasts.
Love the colour. It's how a beer should look, and the clarity is so good I can read the PC screen through the beer.

The aroma is gently malty sweet and very clean. Nothing jumps out to jangle the nerves. 
Medium bodied with very nice mouthfeel.
Initial flavour is of very clean malt, with a hint of sweetness. That lasts all the way down the palate, but the finish in swallowing is of balanced cleansing bitterness, enough to avoid cloying. Very similar to many UK ales I''ve tried from the bottle. Not really any obvious hop character in the taste that I detect.
Altogether a very nicely balanced beer, unlike many APA and AIPA style beers (not that I don't love those as well). 
I'm disappointed I only have one bottle!

I will have to schedule an AG batch of this. The only UK yeast I have at present is WY1099 Whitbread, which should go OK, I hope.


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## Tony

warra...... to be honest, any cleanish ale yeast will work...... if its a fruity one, ferment it cooler.

The hops tend to blend with malt.... they are kind of deep and earthy.

Definitely do an AG batch mate.

cheers


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## hendos

Brewed this at the end of the week. Been 4 days so far bubbling away in the fermenter.
Cant wait to tase this one. Loved the smell of the Pacific Gem hops.

Thanks for another recipe i have tried a few of yours tony with success with most of them :beer:


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## jberries

Hi Tony, great recipe. I did my first AG and first BIAB on this one, this is a great tasting beer. I would have to agree that it is better than the original. Will be making it again a.s.a.p. Thanks a lot!


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## stompnground

has anyone done an extract brew of this? it it such a great drop and i want to have a crack


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