# Epic Pale Ale Clone



## dabre4

I've done a search on this and came up with nothing. Who out there has tried Epic Pale Ale? Amazing beer with a crazy amount of hops in it, and I want to try and make a version of my own. The claim is that they use 15.4 hop flowers per bottle or 3000 percent more than the average beer! WTF! It just sounds ridiculous, but if you tasted the beer, you might think twice. If anyone knows how much one hop flower weighs, we would have a good start. Even better they give some good info on the web:

INGREDIENTS
Malt - English Pale Ale, Crystal
Hops - US Cascade

Alc/Vol - 5.4%
IBU - 45
Style - American-Style Pale Ale

330ml bottle - 1.4 standard drinks
500ml bottle - 2.1 standard drinks

FLAVOURS & AROMAS
Lychee
Grapefruit Peel
Apricot

Who actually specifies the IBU on their web page! Anyway I'm not going to complain! The malt base seems pretty basic, this beer is all about the hops anyway, which is all one variety, US Cascade.

So I've had a crack at a recipe and would love some feedback. I look at this recipe and think, thats a shit load of hops, but its still nowhere near 3000 percent more than normal! I know I've gone away from the "simple" malt base, but I think it could help balance out all that hops! Someone else might have a better idea?

Epic Pale Ale Clone 
10-A American Pale Ale 
Author: DB 
Size: 24 L
Efficiency: 75.0% 
Attenuation: 75.0% 
Calories: 183.01 kcal per 12.0 fl oz 
Original Gravity: 1.055 (1.045 - 1.060) 
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.010 - 1.015) 
Color: 11.49 (5.0 - 14.0) 
Alcohol: 5.41% (4.5% - 6.2%) 
Bitterness: 44.8 (30.0 - 45.0) 

Ingredients: 
4.7 kg JW Traditional Ale Malt 
0.8 kg JW Wheat Malt 
0.3 kg Crystal Malt 
0.2 kg Caramunich TYPE I 
27 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min 
35 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 40 min 
30 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20 min 
30 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min 
40 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min 
20 g Cascade (Dry hop in secondary) (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min 
1.0 ea WYeast 1272 American Ale II

Schedule:
Single infusion mash at 68C

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.7


Cheers


----------



## manticle

Can't help you with exact info as I've never tried the beer. I would hazard a guess however that they deliver a kind of layered hoppiness by adding hops late and very frequently to the kettle. Look at small hop additions beyond 30 or even 20 minutes. Try a small addition every 3 minutes instead of one big addition every 10 or 20.

My guess is based on your description and my limited exerience of the lovely layered fruitiness a hopbust can bring to a beer without just tasting like 'I threw in a bucket of hops at 10 minutes' so I apologise if I'm on the mark. Worthwhile technique anyway.


----------



## Stove

Can't help with the recipe- whether it looks right or not I'd have no clue.
I _do_ know what Epic tastes like though- and I'd only be too happy to critique it once you have it brewed :chug: 

Used to make a habit of having an Epic every time I went to the Cock and Bull in the Tron (NZ).

They did lovely beers


----------



## dabre4

Thanks for the advice.

How about this?

Epic Pale Ale Clone
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: DB

Size: 24 L
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 183.01 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.055 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 11.49 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 5.41% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 44.9 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
4.7 kg JW Traditional Ale Malt
0.8 kg JW Wheat Malt
0.3 kg Crystal Malt
0.2 kg Caramunich TYPE I
30 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
18 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20 min
18 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 17 min
20 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 14 min
20 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 11 min
22 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 8 min
22 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min
20 g Cascade (Dry hop in secondary) (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
0.0 ea WYeast 1272 American Ale II


Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.7


----------



## dabre4

Also if you haven't tryed it.......do!


----------



## Jimmeh

Doesn't the website say it uses "English Pale Ale, Crystal"?

This would be a good starting point:

95% Marris Otter or Golden Promise (these are english pale ale malts)
5% Crystal


Cheers, Jim


----------



## jakub76

Jimmeh said:


> Doesn't the website say it uses "English Pale Ale, Crystal"?
> 
> This would be a good starting point:
> 
> 95% Marris Otter or Golden Promise (these are english pale ale malts)
> 5% Crystal
> 
> 
> Cheers, Jim


I'd also use Maris Otter. At least to try to balance all of that bitterness with some more malt. I'd probably be tempted to start with only about 1/3 of the IBU's at the 60 minute addition and ramp up the amount of hops in additions at 30, 20, 10, 2 and dry
20g @ 60min 15 IBU
25g @ 30min 10 IBU
30g @ 20min 7 IBU
35g @ 10min 6 IBU
40g @ 2min 5 IBU
That's 43IBU (Rager) for 22Litres


----------



## dabre4

jakub76 said:


> I'd also use Maris Otter. At least to try to balance all of that bitterness with some more malt. I'd probably be tempted to start with only about 1/3 of the IBU's at the 60 minute addition and ramp up the amount of hops in additions at 30, 20, 10, 2 and dry
> 20g @ 60min 15 IBU
> 25g @ 30min 10 IBU
> 30g @ 20min 7 IBU
> 35g @ 10min 6 IBU
> 40g @ 2min 5 IBU
> That's 43IBU (Rager) for 22Litres




Ok. Sounds good. I'll adjust the recipe to include Maris Otter and Crystal. My problem is this is sounding more like an English Ale, I want it to be more along the lines of an American Pale Ale, hence why I used a different Malt base. Any suggestions on an alternative Malt base to just Maris Otter and crystal, or do you think that would be sufficent to match the style of beer I'm aiming for? Maybe I could add a touch of wheat.


----------



## neonmeate

you could try golden promise instead if you think maris otter is going to soak up too much hop flavour (which it does)


----------



## Fourstar

A way to avoid using Maris Otter but give your malt some 'English' complexity would be to use something like biscuit, aromatic or imperial malt along with plain old ale malt. something like the following would suffice as a clone substitute.

90% JW Ale
5% Simpsons Aromatic/Dingemans Biscuit
5% JW Crystal

I find these highly kilned malts work really well with JW ale/pilsner as an English malt substitute over using maris otter, golden promise etc. It also adds a nice touch to the beer over using Munich or Vienna as a malt 'booster' too. Something different from what the crowd usually does.

As for the hopping, 23 hop cones roughly equates to 3-4g of hops per bottle (500ml). I recently harvested 200 odd cones and they dried out to 30g, thats where i get my numbers from. 

So for a whole batch, 23L * (3.5g*2) = 161g.

As for the hop schedule, i wouldnt go too complex as i'd doubt someone is standing over the kettle for the whole boil dumping in hops every 10 mins.

I'd shoot for something like.

20IBU @ 60 min
10IBU @ 40-30 min
15IBU @ 10-5 min
2g/L @ flameout


Cheers. :icon_cheers:


----------



## BrenosBrews

neonmeate said:


> you could try golden promise instead if you think maris otter is going to soak up too much hop flavour (which it does)



Golden Promise is actually the base English malt used in the Epic Pale so that would be my pick too.


----------



## Fourstar

BrenosBrews said:


> Golden Promise is actually the base English malt used in the Epic Pale so that would be my pick too.




how do you know this?


----------



## sumo

Something like this....

Hat tip to Joking on RealBeer.co.nz for the Epic clone recipe 

Epic Clone
10-A American Pale Ale

Boil Size 27 L
Size: 22.75 L
Efficiency: 80%
Attenuation: 77.0%
Calories: 178.09 kcal per 12 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.054 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.012 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 22.15 (5.00 - 14.00)
Alcohol: 5.42% (4.50% - 6.00%)
Bitterness: 45.9 (30.00 - 45.00)

Ingredients:
4.7 kg Golden Promise Pale
.41 kg British Crystal 90 EBC
50 g Cascade (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
50 g Cascade (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
50 g Cascade (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 1.0 min
100 g Cascade (5.8%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 Wyeast 1272

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 21.11 C
Source Water: 15.56 C
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash In - Liquor: 12.78 L; Strike: 74.53 C; Target: 67 C
01:03:00 Saccrification - Rest: 60 min; Final: 65.0 C
01:04:00 Mash Out - Water: 3.71 L; Temperature: 100.0 C; Target: 72.0 C
02:04:00 Sparge - Sparge Volume: 21.32 L; Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C; Runoff: 21.35 L

Note this has been seen as a little more bitter than the real thing.

And by the way Epic does use Golden Promise, heard from the brewers mouth at a tasting earlier this year.


----------



## dabre4

Thanks Fourstar! Thats great. Seems like we are not to far off the mark in terms of the amount of hops. I can't see that as 3000% more than normal, my maths might be wrong but wouldn't that mean a normal 23L batch would have around 5-6g of hops!


----------



## dabre4

sumo said:


> Something like this....
> 
> Hat tip to Joking on RealBeer.co.nz for the Epic clone recipe
> 
> Epic Clone
> 10-A American Pale Ale
> 
> Boil Size 27 L
> Size: 22.75 L
> Efficiency: 80%
> Attenuation: 77.0%
> 
> 
> Calories: 178.09 kcal per 12 fl oz
> 
> Original Gravity: 1.054 (1.045 - 1.060)
> Terminal Gravity: 1.012 (1.010 - 1.015)
> Color: 22.15 (5.00 - 14.00)
> Alcohol: 5.42% (4.50% - 6.00%)
> Bitterness: 45.9 (30.00 - 45.00)
> 
> Ingredients:
> 4.7 kg Golden Promise Pale
> .41 kg British Crystal 90 EBC
> 50 g Cascade (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
> 50 g Cascade (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
> 50 g Cascade (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 1.0 min
> 100 g Cascade (5.8%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
> 1 Wyeast 1272
> 
> Schedule:
> Ambient Air: 21.11 C
> Source Water: 15.56 C
> Elevation: 0.0 m
> 
> 00:03:00 Mash In - Liquor: 12.78 L; Strike: 74.53 C; Target: 67 C
> 01:03:00 Saccrification - Rest: 60 min; Final: 65.0 C
> 01:04:00 Mash Out - Water: 3.71 L; Temperature: 100.0 C; Target: 72.0 C
> 02:04:00 Sparge - Sparge Volume: 21.32 L; Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C; Runoff: 21.35 L
> 
> Note this has been seen as a little more bitter than the real thing.
> 
> And by the way Epic does use Golden Promise, heard from the brewers mouth at a tasting earlier this year.




Fantastic work Sumo, that looks pretty damb good! Thats a shit load of hops! Yum yum.


----------



## BrenosBrews

Fourstar said:


> how do you know this?



Because Luke Nicholas told me and numerous other people.


----------



## Fourstar

sumo said:


> And by the way Epic does use Golden Promise, heard from the brewers mouth at a tasting earlier this year.





BrenosBrews said:


> Because Luke Nicholas told me and numerous other people.



Sweeto burrito! :icon_cheers:


----------



## sinkas

Are you sure its all cascade? I have only had it a few times, but seemd more complex than a cascade only beer to me


----------



## neonmeate

ooh ive saved that one for future brewing. thanks sumo!


----------



## Fourstar

sinkas said:


> Are you sure its all cascade? I have only had it a few times, but seemd more complex than a cascade only beer to me



Acording to their website.. Nothing but cascade.


----------



## bum

I felt the same as Sinkas. I wonder if it comes down to yeast selection and management?


----------



## Fourstar

bum said:


> I felt the same as Sinkas. I wonder if it comes down to yeast selection and management?




Wyeast 1272 maybe?!! :icon_drool2:


----------



## sumo

Just to make sure, the cascade is US, not NZ and the yeast is 1272.

I'm guessing the Impish Brewer just knows how to get what he wants out of both, it's a cracker off the tap!


----------



## BrenosBrews

sumo said:


> Just to make sure, the cascade is US, not NZ and the yeast is 1272.
> 
> I'm guessing the Impish Brewer just knows how to get what he wants out of both, it's a cracker off the tap!



Yeah, if memory serves me correct he doesn't use any NZ hops? Sort of ironic given Sierra Nevada and to a lesser degree Alpine and possibly others in the US are using NZ hops a fair bit.


----------



## dabre4

This is the final recipe I'll be brewing up this weekend. I've adjusted it a bit to match my efficiency's, and to suit the Cascade hops at Grain and Grape at the moment (7.8%AA!). Thought I might put it up just in case anyone out there wanted to brew this one up themselfs. Thanks for all the help everyone! Prost! :icon_cheers: 

Epic Pale Ale Clone
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: DB

Size: 23.0 L
Efficiency: 75%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 182.68 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.055 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 11.63 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 5.4% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 44.1 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
5.3 kg Golden Promise Malt
0.4 kg Crystal Malt
30.0 g Cascade (7.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
50.0 g Cascade (7.8%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
50.0 g Cascade (7.8%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min
100.0 g Cascade (7.8%) - dry hop in secondary
0.5 tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 5 min
0.0 ea WYeast 1272 American Ale II

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 F
Source Water: 60.0 F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash In - Liquor: 14.35 L; Strike: 75.46 C; Target: 68 C
01:03:00 Rest - Rest: 60 min; Final: 67.0 C
01:04:00 Infusion Step - Water: 3.6 L; Temperature: 99.7 C; Target: 72 C
02:04:00 Fly Sparge - Sparge Volume: 23.78 L; Sparge Temperature: 75.0 C; Runoff: 23.81 L

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.7


----------



## epicbeer

Doog

Yes all US Cascade, go crazy on the dry hopping

Final gravity should be around 1.011

Cheers
Luke


----------



## Supra-Jim

Cheers Epicbeer,

Will be brewing this in the next few days. :beerbang: 

Cheers SJ


----------



## dabre4

epicbeer said:


> Doog
> 
> Yes all US Cascade, go crazy on the dry hopping
> 
> Final gravity should be around 1.011
> 
> Cheers
> Luke



Luke,

Cheers mate. Didn't know you where member! Love your work. Thanks for the advise.

Is that a hint to use more in dry hopping? I don't think I dare use more than 100g, I normally think 20g is too much.


----------



## dans6401

Hey Doog,
How'd you get on with this brew? Would love to give it a crack myself so very interested. Love the Epic beers but $15 for a 500ml (from memory) is a little steep for me. 
Please don't be one of those who never gets back on how it turns out.
Cheers


----------



## dabre4

dans6401 said:


> Hey Doog,
> How'd you get on with this brew? Would love to give it a crack myself so very interested. Love the Epic beers but $15 for a 500ml (from memory) is a little steep for me.
> Please don't be one of those who never gets back on how it turns out.
> Cheers




Just put it in the keg today. Tasted pretty good out of the fermenter. Extreme hop flavour and aroma. The malty base seemed to balance out quite well with the intense hopyness. It did taste pretty grassy, so I think I may have had the dry hops in for too long (9days). If I was going to do it again, I would rack to secondary and add the dry hops in the last 3 days or so, that and maybe use less hops. To personal taste I think a different hop could be used in the secondary also, this might result in a beer not necessarily a clone, but that doesn't bother me, as long as it tastes good!

I'm going to let it condition for a few weeks, in the hope that the grassy flavours might mellow out a bit. I'll let you know how it goes after that!


----------



## dabre4

Just cracked open the first bottle tonight after 10 days in secondary and around 10 days in the bottle. SLAP. (That the hops hitting me in the face) YUM! This beer is really nice. It has a nice citrusy aroma, with a fare bit of a candy like, or sweet biscuty aroma too (assuming this is coming from the malt), hops flavour is amazing but surprisingly not to overpowering. The mateyness is about spot on, quite English Ale tasting, and balances out the hop bitterness very well. I don't have a bottle of Epic Pale Ale to compare, but I'm not too worried about getting it spot on, just getting a great result. The main pitfall is I still taste a bit of grassiness due to the fact that I left the hops in the secondary a little too long. I would recommend no longer than 4 days in secondary. 

Anyway, anyone who likes this beer I strongly recommend you gives the recipe a go, a fantastic swill. I'll be taping the keg very soon!

Cheers.


----------



## sinkas

Just noticed that Tasty McDole of the Brewing Network currently has a clone attmempt of this fermenting, so I guess there will be a Can you Brew it episode for this beeer some time soon.


----------



## seemax

I bottled my version last week.

100% Marris Otter , but I used Magnum for bittering (coz I had heaps) and bucket loads of cascade, late additions, NC additions and huge dry hops.
It tasted great at bottling... the MO malt profile seems to work with cascade to my surprise!

I'll let you know once it's carbed up.


----------



## jakub76

Brewing Nework will be cloning Epic Pale Ale in theit next CYBI show - Monday Aug 16 1800 PST - which I think is 11am, Tuesday Aug 17 in Sydney. I'm sure the podcast will be available to download shortly after.


----------



## brycehobson

Well done to the G&G boys for sponsership of the Epic Pale Clone on 'The Jamil Show'... get on it, great interview with Luke and Jamil, inspiring stuff! Dry hoppers delight

Jamil Show - Epic Pale


----------



## brycehobson

1052 SG -23litres

Golden promise 4.36kg
550grams Crystal 15
180grams - Carapils
360grams -Crystal 20

64-65 degrees Mash

Wyeast 1272 Pitch at 18 let warm to 21 degrees and hold

1011 FG

US Cascade
7g 75m
14g 30m
34g10m
43g 0m
50g dry hop primary (couple days before finishing)
50g dry hop secondry or keg at 4degrees


----------



## WarmBeer

bryceyboy said:


> US Cascade
> 7g 75m
> 14g 30m
> 34g10m
> 43g 0m
> 50g dry hop primary (couple days before finishing)
> 50g dry hop secondry or keg at 4degrees


Do you recall the %AA of the Cascade?

There can be quite a discrepancy in Alpha acid content between harvests and regions, and this could make a large impact on the bitterness of the final beer, especially with that relatively small 75 minute addition.

I know I could always download and listen to it myself, but I want to bookmark this thread for later reference.


----------



## brycehobson

7.5%AA


----------



## WarmBeer

bryceyboy said:


> 7.5%AA


Thanks.

Now, just hope they do the 'Epic Mayhem' next. Awesome beer, IMHO.


----------



## jacknohe

bryceyboy said:


> 1052 SG -23litres
> 
> Golden promise 4.36kg
> 550grams Crystal 15
> 180grams - Carapils
> 360grams -Crystal 20
> 
> 64-65 degrees Mash
> 
> Wyeast 1272 Pitch at 18 let warm to 21 degrees and hold
> 
> 1011 FG
> 
> US Cascade
> 7g 75m
> 14g 30m
> 34g10m
> 43g 0m
> 50g dry hop primary (couple days before finishing)
> 50g dry hop secondry or keg at 4degrees



Hi Brycey

Just been listening to the podcast. They mentioned another addition of 42.5g of Cascade after the whirlpool. Did you miss this by accident or did you leave it out intentionally (i.e. you don't whirlpool yourself etc)?


----------



## seemax

I've had my clone in the bottle around 4 weeks now and it's neither here nor there.

Used Maris Otter and US-05 instead of the GP/1272. The nut/biscuit of the malt is a little off with the citrus tang of the cascade. Certainly drinkable but not special.


----------



## whatjames

re the second dry hopping in keg at 4 deg

do you chill, dry hop, carb up and start drinking straight away? or is it best to let it sit for a certain period of time?

recommendations?





bryceyboy said:


> 1052 SG -23litres
> 
> Golden promise 4.36kg
> 550grams Crystal 15
> 180grams - Carapils
> 360grams -Crystal 20
> 
> 64-65 degrees Mash
> 
> Wyeast 1272 Pitch at 18 let warm to 21 degrees and hold
> 
> 1011 FG
> 
> US Cascade
> 7g 75m
> 14g 30m
> 34g10m
> 43g 0m
> 50g dry hop primary (couple days before finishing)
> 50g dry hop secondry or keg at 4degrees


----------



## mika

Dry hops in the keg can caus issues. I'd be looking at the Stainless teaballs or something similar if hopping in the keg. Otherwise, I think 5-7days dry hop when it's cold will be the go. Things happen alot slower when it's cold.
I only recently listened to the clone brew show on the Brewing Network and don't recall them giving a time for the cold hopping. Might be worth tracking it down and re-checking though.


----------



## mikem108

Watch those tea balls, some have a small part that is not stainless and rusts out quickly


----------



## Effect

crystal 15 and crystal 20??

What are the equivalents?

Cheers
Phil


----------



## argon

mikem108 said:


> Watch those tea balls, some have a small part that is not stainless and rusts out quickly


For keg hopping... just grab a small hop bag or voile bag, fill it up with whatever hops you want and add a little stainless fitting, like a lock nut or threaded nipple, just to keep it submersed. Even tie a small bit of fishing line to the bag if you want to only hop for a limited time. Just let it poke out of the o-ring for the keg lid. Easily retrieved.


----------



## bum

Phillip said:


> crystal 15 and crystal 20??
> 
> What are the equivalents?



+1

[EDIT: Google tells me carahell might be good for 15]


----------



## samhaldane

Phillip said:


> crystal 15 and crystal 20??
> 
> What are the equivalents?



From the podcast, Crystal 15 is Bairds Caramalt and Crystal 20 is TF Pale Crystal.

If you can't get Bairds Caramalt I think that Weyermann Carahell would be a good substitute. I'm not sure about the Crystal 20 as TF Pale Crystal is 50 - 70 EBC.


----------



## Fourstar

bum said:


> +1
> 
> [EDIT: Google tells me carahell might be good for 15]



carahell for the 15 and carared(or JW caramalt) for the 20.


----------



## brycehobson

Missed jacknohe... my apoligies.



jacknohe said:


> Hi Brycey
> 
> Just been listening to the podcast. They mentioned another addition of 42.5g of Cascade after the whirlpool. Did you miss this by accident or did you leave it out intentionally (i.e. you don't whirlpool yourself etc)?


----------



## brycehobson

Normally the colder you're at, the longer you need for utilization. Some say 1 week, others as long as 3 weeks. I'd give it at least a week. (Which is my normal CO2 absorb time) Taste it... then if it lasts longer than the weekend keep tasting at intervals. 2 week, 3 week. See if you think it gets better or worse. Then you know your process for keg dry hopping. 



whatjames said:


> re the second dry hopping in keg at 4 deg
> 
> do you chill, dry hop, carb up and start drinking straight away? or is it best to let it sit for a certain period of time?
> 
> recommendations?


----------



## Effect

Fourstar said:


> carahell for the 15 and carared(or JW caramalt) for the 20.




brilliant - I have both


----------



## samhaldane

With the hop schedule in the podcast I only get around 25 IBUs (using Rager and BeerAlchemy), but Luke says the beer has 45 IBUs. Is that right or am I missing something?

EDIT: after listening again, JZ says about 23 IBUs calculated but you get more bitterness from the long, hot whirlpool.


----------



## davo4772

Has anyone no chilled this recipe?

That is a massive amount of late hops, I would think that no chill would screw with the bittering in this recipe.

I will chill if necessary but adds a couple of hours to the brew day with my crude method, that is I plonk the whole boiler into a large tub of ice.


Cheers

Dave


----------



## jacknohe

Have wanted to do this clone for a while now as it sounded awesome, but had never tasted it. Went to NZ for xmas and managed to track it down. Lovely! Nice dry hop flavour.

I'm planning on brewing a clone this weekend. I no chill for all my brews and intend on using no chill for this clone too. I've decided to place all the whirlpool hop addition into the cube and count it as a 10min addition. This appears to bring the IBU up to the right level in Beersmith. We'll see how it works out.



david72 said:


> Has anyone no chilled this recipe?
> 
> That is a massive amount of late hops, I would think that no chill would screw with the bittering in this recipe.
> 
> I will chill if necessary but adds a couple of hours to the brew day with my crude method, that is I plonk the whole boiler into a large tub of ice.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


----------



## davo4772

Cheers, let us know how you go.


----------



## Effect

Had this again two days ago and think this will be the best way to get rid of my cascade.

Has anyone brewed this exact recipe as far as the grain bill goes? Seems like a really high amount of crystal is all.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## DanRayner

Yup - I brewed this recipe and you'll have no problems with this amount of crystal.

Actually, I brew with 500g of crystal in a 5.5kilo batch everytime I brew a California Common. I would hesitate in putting more than 15% crystal but 10% is fine. I'm about to brew a Fuller's 1845 recipe (from the BN and from what I remember it was from the Fuller's head brewer himself) that calls for 10% crystal, 10% amber and 80% pale.


----------



## davo4772

Not brewed it as yet but that recipe is directly from the brewer.

Here is the link to the episode.

Just fast forward until you hear a kiwi accent.

cheers

Dave


----------



## Effect

david72 said:


> Not brewed it as yet but that recipe is directly from the brewer.
> 
> Here is the link to the episode.
> 
> Just fast forward until you hear a kiwi accent.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



yeah, i did that as well after i posted here. Put the 1500 kilos of malt into beersmith and scaled down to 1.052. worked out basically the same as the BN CYBI recipe. I had just assumed that the americans had changed it to suit their crystal malts...

Cheers
Phil


----------



## jacknohe

jacknohe said:


> Have wanted to do this clone for a while now as it sounded awesome, but had never tasted it. Went to NZ for xmas and managed to track it down. Lovely! Nice dry hop flavour.
> 
> I'm planning on brewing a clone this weekend. I no chill for all my brews and intend on using no chill for this clone too. I've decided to place all the whirlpool hop addition into the cube and count it as a 10min addition. This appears to bring the IBU up to the right level in Beersmith. We'll see how it works out.



Reporting in. Had a taste out of the fermenter prior to cold conditioning. Tastes right on the money to me and smells fantastic! :icon_drool2: We'll see what its like with some carbonation. Thanks a million Luke Nicholas for the tips if you're listening, you're a star!

Here's the recipe I put together from the podcast in Beersmith. I was concerned at first about the bitterness but luckily I have two bottles of Epic I smuggled from NZ to compare with. One more left for when I do the final test in a few weeks. Just a reminder, I put the whole whirlpool addition mentioned in the podcast into the cube (100g Cascade) and treated it as 15min boil for IBU calculation which worked out as approx 42 IBUs.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Epic Pale Ale
Brewer: Big O
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 31.17 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 19.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 16.2 IBU (+26 IBUs from cube hopping)
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4400.00 gm Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett)Grain 80.15 % 
550.00 gm Caramalt (Thomas Fawcett) (29.6 EBC) Grain 10.02 % 
360.00 gm Crystal Malt - Pale (Thomas Fawcett) (100.Grain 6.56 % 
180.00 gm Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 3.28 % 
7.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (75 min) Hops 3.9 IBU 
14.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 5.7 IBU 
34.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 6.6 IBU 
100.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-SteepHops - 
50.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 4 days) Hops - 
50.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops - 
1.22 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5490.00 gm
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
80 min Mash In Add 34.25 L of water at 67.6 C 65.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 0.00 L of water at 78.0 C 78.0 C 

Notes:
------
100gm flameout addition placed in cube and treated as 15min boil addition for IBU count of +19.


----------



## samhaldane

jacknohe said:


> 50.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 4 days) Hops -
> 50.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -



How did you do the two lots of dry hops?

I'm going to brew this soon, and I was thinking I'd put the first lot into primary, then rack into secondary after 4 days leaving the first lot behind, chill overnight and then throw the second lot into secondary for 7 days.


----------



## jacknohe

haldini said:


> How did you do the two lots of dry hops?
> 
> I'm going to brew this soon, and I was thinking I'd put the first lot into primary, then rack into secondary after 4 days leaving the first lot behind, chill overnight and then throw the second lot into secondary for 7 days.



To be honest, what you suggest above is probably the best way. Except I personally don't chill until after the 7 days in the secondary to let the remainder of fermenation to complete. Quite often racking off kicks the yeast back into gear to finish off any remaining fermentables. Then chill after that.

However, in this case, I used a mini-mash bag (a mini BIAB) and placed the hops in that. After four days, pulled it out, emptied the hops and added the second lot. I was feeling a little lazy <_< and didn't rack off in this case, left it all in primary. But instead racked to a cube for chilling and added some PolyClar (my first time).


----------



## speedie

i tried a brew of this(epic) last night and thought that it wasnt as resiny as the brew that was sampled last year
i think that he(luke) may have some hopping differances
speedie


----------



## theover

haldini said:


> How did you do the two lots of dry hops?
> 
> I'm going to brew this soon, and I was thinking I'd put the first lot into primary, then rack into secondary after 4 days leaving the first lot behind, chill overnight and then throw the second lot into secondary for 7 days.




57g Cascade dry hop dose 1 at ferment temps for 5 days
57g Cascade dry hop dose 2 at cold crash temps for 5 days


----------



## speedie

can you dudes afford all that hop that is going into your brew


----------



## kenlock

speedie said:


> can you dudes afford all that hop that is going into your brew



Recipe uses about 1/2lb of hops, which costs about $10. That's less than the cost of one 500ml bottle or 3 pots of mega at a pub. The question is really "can you dudes not afford to use all that hop into your brew"!


----------



## goomboogo

speedie said:


> can you dudes afford all that hop that is going into your brew



I took out a second mortgage to cover the cost.


----------



## mschippr

Hi jacknohe, did you do a rest like it mentioned in the podcast or is it not really necessary?


----------



## jacknohe

mschippr said:


> Hi jacknohe, did you do a rest like it mentioned in the podcast or is it not really necessary?




Oops, sorry. Missed this post. I didn't bother with any rests.

Also, an update on this. Did a three way blind testing of my clone vs my last Epic stubbie I brought back with me from NZ. My tester (thanks Pete) had to keep his eyes closed since my chill haze would have been a give away. But he picked mine as being the real thing.

To be fair, mine was a lot fresher than the Epic stubby which would be at least 3-4 months old. And perhaps just a little more flavour. Had party on the weekend and even the regular mega swill drinkers thought it was christmas and damn near cleaned me out coming back for refills. Luckily I saved a couple of bottles.


----------



## davo4772

Ok, have brewed this one from the recipe here

It finished at 1010 so was a bit worried it will be too dry but having gone back through this thread that 1011 is about where it should finish.

As usual I was limited in obtaining the exact malts used but was able to get Simpsons GP, Global and JW crystal malts. 
I bought a bottle of the original to compare. The colour is close, mine is more red.

The hop profile was close, the dry hopping in mine was more intense but should settle with time.

I didn't nail that lovely sweet caramel flavour in EPA, perhaps because I didn't use English crystal malts.

All in all happy with the result.


----------



## Truman42

Planning on brewing this on the weekend using Golden promise, light crystal and Carapils and pitching US05 as they dont have liquid yeasts at KK. (19litre batch)

Ive come up short on my hop bill by 15grams and was going to sub 15 grams of Amarillo instead.

But Im not sure if I should sub the bittering addition for the Amarillo, or the aroma or dry hop additions. (Without effecting the overall flavour profile)

Heres my hop additions

Cascade
5.8g 7 mins
11.5g 30 mins
28g 10 mins
35g flameout wait 15 mins
35g at whirlpool for 20 mins

Dry hop day 4 50 grams

Dry hop when cold conditioning 50 gams 7 days

Appreciate some advice on where best the Amarillo would slot in here?


----------



## bum

Truman said:


> (Without effecting the overall flavour profile)


Witchcraft?


----------



## Charst

Truman said:


> Planning on brewing this on the weekend using Golden promise, light crystal and Carapils and pitching US05 as they dont have liquid yeasts at KK. (19litre batch)
> 
> Ive come up short on my hop bill by 15grams and was going to sub 15 grams of Amarillo instead.
> 
> But Im not sure if I should sub the bittering addition for the Amarillo, or the aroma or dry hop additions. (Without effecting the overall flavour profile)
> 
> Heres my hop additions
> 
> Cascade
> 5.8g 7 mins
> 11.5g 30 mins
> 28g 10 mins
> 35g flameout wait 15 mins
> 35g at whirlpool for 20 mins
> 
> Dry hop day 4 50 grams
> 
> Dry hop when cold conditioning 50 gams 7 days
> 
> Appreciate some advice on where best the Amarillo would slot in here?



If your more concerned with maintaining a cascade only flavour then its an obvious sub to the bittering, but I have no experience bittering with amarillo and how it preforms as a bittering hop. if you listen to the Can you brew it episode all the people on it cant believe the Epic pale ale is cascade only. So I wouldn't shit yourself about it they are similar flavours and will mix well together. Bittering or the 30 if your worried.


----------



## Truman42

@Bum... No they had none of that at KK either..  

@Charst......thanks mate, Im not sure about Amarillo as a bittering hop either hence the question. Ive listened to the podcast and was reluctant to use anything but Amarillo, but if its ok as a bittering addition will use it at the 75 and 30 min


----------



## sponge

Do you have any centennial instead?

Could always use some of the instead of the cascade bittering addition as they're both quite similar.


EDIT: not that it really matters, since itll turn out delicious either way. I was just thinking for a more cascade-y flavour...


----------



## Truman42

sponge said:


> Do you have any centennial instead?
> 
> Could always use some of the instead of the cascade bittering addition as they're both quite similar.
> 
> 
> EDIT: not that it really matters, since itll turn out delicious either way. I was just thinking for a more cascade-y flavour...



No I dont, but have Citra. Will that do?


----------



## sponge

Either amarillo or citra would work IMO.

Throw it in at 30 and it wont change things too much. especially with them both being higher in AA% than the cascade, you wont need to use as much anyways to get the desired IBU's, thus not changing the flavour as much.

The late additions and dry hopping will be the real flavour punch in this brew



Sponge


----------



## Truman42

sponge said:


> Either amarillo or citra would work IMO.
> 
> Throw it in at 30 and it wont change things too much. especially with them both being higher in AA% than the cascade, you wont need to use as much anyways to get the desired IBU's, thus not changing the flavour as much.
> 
> The late additions and dry hopping will be the real flavour punch in this brew
> 
> 
> 
> Sponge



Cheers Sponge, will give that a crack. Will be my first keg brew so looking forward to it. (Just gotta get my upside down fire extinguisher mounted properly...   )


----------



## Muscovy_333

Truman said:


> Cheers Sponge, will give that a crack. Will be my first keg brew so looking forward to it. (Just gotta get my upside down fire extinguisher mounted properly...   )




Truman, 
I have some Centenial if you need some


----------



## dmac80

No chance of brewing as per the recipe and picking up some more cascade between brewday and the second lot of dry hopping?


----------



## Truman42

@ Muscovy..Thanks anyway mate but were going out all day tomorrow and wont be home until late then Im brewing Sunday morning. Unless you were passing by and could throw them in the mailbox..  

@dmac... Not a bad idea but Im not able to get there all next week as Im busy at work. I didn't want to pay postage for just one bag of hops.


----------



## Truman42

I kegged this a couple of days ago and whilst it hasnt carbed up fully yet I tasted a sample and its extremely bitter.

I followed the same general hop schedule as the recipes on this post and use a hop spider which I thought would give me less hop utilization anyway. From what Ive read in this post the IBU's of this beer should be around 40 with the flameout and whirlpool additons but mine seems to be well over this. Its the most bitter beer Ive ever brewed.

Could this improve a bit with age and once its carbed up properly? It certainly doesnt have the malt flavour coming through like the original does because the bitterness has over powered everything.


----------



## sponge

Whilst the aroma and flavour may reduce slightly, the bitterness should also go away with a few weeks in the keg at least.

If you let it sit 'CCing' in the keg fridge for a few weeks, the bitterness will definitely be reduced, although depending upon where its at now, and the residual sweetness, may still be bitter.

Either way, it should get smoother with a few weeks in the fridge.

Report back with how it all goes though buddy


----------



## mxd

Truman said:


> Could this improve a bit with age and once its carbed up properly? It certainly doesnt have the malt flavour coming through like the original does because the bitterness has over powered everything.




it should drop a little, do you no chill ?


----------



## Truman42

No I chill. 

I added the flameout addition waited 15 mins, added the whirlpool addition and whirlpooled, waited another 20 mins then transferred to the fermenter via the chiller.


----------



## QldKev

Truman said:


> No I chill.
> 
> I added the flameout addition waited 15 mins, added the whirlpool addition and whirlpooled, waited another 20 mins then transferred to the fermenter via the chiller.



Is there a flameout and also whirlpool addition, I must be looking at a different recipe. 


I noticed the recipe a page back adds 19IBU for no chill, I work it out as nearly 30IBU extra; putting it up to almost 50IBU  Bitter YES


QldKev


----------



## Truman42

QldKev said:


> Is there a flameout and also whirlpool addition, I must be looking at a different recipe.
> 
> 
> I noticed the recipe a page back adds 19IBU for no chill, I work it out as nearly 30IBU extra; putting it up to almost 50IBU  Bitter YES
> 
> 
> QldKev



I took my recipe mainly from the How to brew podcast. Here is my hop additions for a 19 litre batch.

Cascade
5.8g 75 mins
11.5g 30 mins
28g 10 mins
35g flameout wait 15 mins
35g at whirlpool for 20 mins

Dry hop day 4 50 grams

Dry hop when cold conditioning 50 gams 7 days

I didnt no chill though Kev I ran it through my chiller. im comparing it to Kooindas black IPA which is 70IBU and it seems a lot more bitter than that. But Im guessing its possibly that the malt isnt balancing the bitterness properly like it should. Its almost undrinkable and I just hope it settles down after a few weeks in the keg.


----------



## QldKev

Truman said:


> I took my recipe mainly from the How to brew podcast. Here is my hop additions for a 19 litre batch.
> 
> Cascade
> 5.8g 75 mins
> 11.5g 30 mins
> 28g 10 mins
> 35g flameout wait 15 mins
> 35g at whirlpool for 20 mins
> 
> Dry hop day 4 50 grams
> 
> Dry hop when cold conditioning 50 gams 7 days
> 
> I didnt no chill though Kev I ran it through my chiller. im comparing it to Kooindas black IPA which is 70IBU and it seems a lot more bitter than that. But Im guessing its possibly that the malt isnt balancing the bitterness properly like it should. Its almost undrinkable and I just hope it settles down after a few weeks in the keg.




Looks the same as the one on the prior page, he just had one addition at flameout for flameout+whirlpool, and added both together. 

Have you measured the temps just before you whirlpool or just before you chill? 

Say up to 15mins after flame out I'm guessing the temp is still up there to convert hops for bittering, ie >80c. Add 15mins to your flameout+whilpool additions you get an extra 29 IBU. 


QldKev


----------



## Malted

QldKev said:


> Looks the same as the one on the prior page, he just had one addition at flameout for flameout+whirlpool, and added both together.
> 
> Have you measured the temps just before you whirlpool or just before you chill?
> 
> Say up to 15mins after flame out I'm guessing the temp is still up there to convert hops for bittering, ie >80c. Add 15mins to your flameout+whilpool additions you get an extra 29 IBU.
> 
> 
> QldKev


Kev, from what I have been able to determine, generally speaking with a 10oC drop in temp below 100oC, isomerisation drops by half and with another 10oC drop it halves again. So at 80oC one could expect 25% of the isomerisation of that one would expect at 100oC. So in practice once my heat source is off, the wort rapidly reaches 96oC without me doing anything. I start the whirlpooling with my mash paddle and it will drop to 90oC with a good whirlpooling. I then throw my whirlpool hops in and can expect that it will drop into the 80's in the 15 minutes or so that it sits. All good, well maybe not.

What about HSA? I have no answer for this but I am thinking that an immersion chiller combined with a pumped wort return with tangential kettle fitting for whirlpooling might reduce both HSA potential and isomerisation of whirlpool hops? HSA and isomerisation thoughts?


----------



## jacknohe

QldKev said:


> Is there a flameout and also whirlpool addition, I must be looking at a different recipe.
> 
> 
> I noticed the recipe a page back adds 19IBU for no chill, I work it out as nearly 30IBU extra; putting it up to almost 50IBU  Bitter YES
> 
> 
> QldKev



Yeah that was my bad. A typo. I had +26 IBU at the top of the recipe. But it's probably 29-30. So all up 42-45 IBU. I cube hopped that full amount of 100g Cascade. I still think that brew came out as one of the best ever.


----------



## QldKev

Malted said:


> Kev, from what I have been able to determine, generally speaking with a 10oC drop in temp below 100oC, isomerisation drops by half and with another 10oC drop it halves again. So at 80oC one could expect 25% of the isomerisation of that one would expect at 100oC. So in practice once my heat source is off, the wort rapidly reaches 96oC without me doing anything. I start the whirlpooling with my mash paddle and it will drop to 90oC with a good whirlpooling. I then throw my whirlpool hops in and can expect that it will drop into the 80's in the 15 minutes or so that it sits. All good, well maybe not.
> 
> What about HSA? I have no answer for this but I am thinking that an immersion chiller combined with a pumped wort return with tangential kettle fitting for whirlpooling might reduce both HSA potential and isomerisation of whirlpool hops? HSA and isomerisation thoughts?



From memory, the testing I've read concluded 90c = 45%, and 80c = 20% so agree with your numbers. Possibly we should apply an averaged 50% rule of the IBU, so maybe +15IBU? Which probably puts it back closer what I would think a good target IBU for the style. 

It doesn't help Truman why his beer ended up too bitter. 
@Truman, what AA% are your hops?



QldKev


----------



## Truman42

QldKev said:


> From memory, the testing I've read concluded 90c = 45%, and 80c = 20% so agree with your numbers. Possibly we should apply an averaged 50% rule of the IBU, so maybe +15IBU? Which probably puts it back closer what I would think a good target IBU for the style.
> 
> It doesn't help Truman why his beer ended up too bitter.
> @Truman, what AA% are your hops?
> 
> 
> 
> QldKev




From memory as Im at work I think they were 6.5%. I know they were lower than the 7.?% listed in the recipes.


----------



## QldKev

jacknohe said:


> Yeah that was my bad. A typo. I had +26 IBU at the top of the recipe. But it's probably 29-30. So all up 42-45 IBU. I cube hopped that full amount of 100g Cascade. I still think that brew came out as one of the best ever.




Cool, that explains it. 

It's got me motivated to do an Epic Pale Ale next brew. I'll be saying goodbye to about 800g Cascade for the batch, making it my biggest hop bill yet (3 cubes). Time to go play and work out some salt additions ready for it. It may be a couple of weeks before I get a chance to brew it though. I will be slow-chilling it, so will be cube hopping the 100g lots of additions too. But I may change the hops additions so the 30min is @ 15min, and the 10min addition 1/2 @ 0min and 1/2 @ whirlpool. Should be a tasty beer.


QldKev


----------



## jacknohe

QldKev said:


> I'll be saying goodbye to about 800g Cascade for the batch, making it my biggest hop bill yet (3 cubes).



Worth every cent!!!


----------



## QldKev

QldKev said:


> Cool, that explains it.
> 
> It's got me motivated to do an Epic Pale Ale next brew. I'll be saying goodbye to about 800g Cascade for the batch, making it my biggest hop bill yet (3 cubes). Time to go play and work out some salt additions ready for it. It may be a couple of weeks before I get a chance to brew it though. I will be slow-chilling it, so will be cube hopping the 100g lots of additions too. But I may change the hops additions so the 30min is @ 15min, and the 10min addition 1/2 @ 0min and 1/2 @ whirlpool. Should be a tasty beer.
> 
> 
> QldKev






jacknohe said:


> Worth every cent!!!




Poured my first glass of the Epic Pale Ale today. I can't 100% remember the original one I had, only ever have had 1 a couple of years back, for a comparison but pretty happy with this brew. 
Hop Aroma overload!!! I ran a 69L batch and I can see where that almost 800g of hops have gone. Upfront a very sweet brew, that increasingly turns to a citrus bitterness. As you think that's becoming very bitter it mellows a bit and then lingers with a heavy oily coating on the back of my mouth. I think I may up the salt levels next time I brew it as I think being such a full on brew could handle it. I will be brewing it again!

QldKev


----------



## jacknohe

Great to hear!!!


----------



## Adam Howard

Definitely a beer to brew after a hop buy off Nikobrew!


----------



## QldKev

I've already got an order in to yakimavalleyhops for some 2012 cascade to run a batch of this., even thinking at of placing a second one.

I tried a real Epic Pale Ale whilst passing through Brisbane last time (thanks to the people who mentioned to get it from the Era). I was surprised how well mine compares, and wont be changing the recipe for the next brew.

QldKev


----------

