# In support of homeopathy



## Bribie G (14/3/15)

There's been a lot of negative stuff about homeopathy in the news in the last few days, but to balance the argument here's a hard hitting video about life at the coal face for homeopathic practitioners.
Hard job but somebody has to do it.


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## glenos (14/3/15)

http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/


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## MHB (14/3/15)

Love it...
M


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/3/15)

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/25/homeopathy-contains-medicine


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## stewy (14/3/15)

Homeopathy treats mild thirst & paper fires extremely effectively


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## TimT (15/3/15)

Mitchell and Webb are fantastic.


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## booargy (15/3/15)

People trying alternative medicines is on the increase because "real" medicine isnt working for them. The medical industry see this as a threat to their bottom line. It is a bit like the big breweries trying to stop the competition.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

Combine homeopathy with Pete Evens paleo diet and we could all live to at least 70


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## MHB (15/3/15)

booargy said:


> People trying alternative medicines is on the increase because "real" medicine isnt working for them. The medical industry see this as a threat to their bottom line. It is a bit like the big breweries trying to stop the competition.


Ya think?
Maybe some alternative medicines have some benefit, but in the case of homeopathy there is no evidence and it never survives testing - there is even a big cash prise ($1M US) available to anyone who can show it works - still uncollected.
Oh sorry is should have said works as a medicine, it works very well at separating the injudicious from their money.
Mark


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## ekul (15/3/15)

homeopathy was really good in its day, back when everything wastreated with mercury


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## booargy (15/3/15)

Doesnt matter if it works or not. Where someone spends their money is up to them and this is what this is all about. Someone is pissed because they are missing out on the millions that people are spending on something that doesn't work.


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## Bribie G (15/3/15)

There are no calls to have the practice banned. The current exercise is intended to inform people that it doesn't work, so they can continue to spend their money on it, or Channeling, Reiki, Naturopathy, tinfoil hats, or lotto tickets if that is their decision to do so. Also if I were privately insured (which I'm not) I'd be having a close look at whether my fund was subsidising homeopathy and switch to someone with lower fees who don't do rebates on it.


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## Grott (15/3/15)

You could all invest in "Grott's home cures" guaranteed to kill you slowly or money back.


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## manticle (15/3/15)

> Doesnt matter if it works or not. Where someone spends their money is up to them and this is what this is all about. Someone is pissed because they are missing out on the millions that people are spending on something that doesn't work.


Really?


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

Here is a bottle of homeopathic medicine next to a bottle of water. The difference is obvious


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## MHB (15/3/15)

booargy said:


> Doesnt matter if it works or not. Where someone spends their money is up to them and this is what this is all about. Someone is pissed because they are missing out on the millions that people are spending on something that doesn't work.


Really
Well I cant prove you're wrong, so you must be right.
M


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## glenos (15/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Here is a bottle of homeopathic medicine next to a bottle of water. The difference is obvious


About $200 on the price tag is my guess.

I was amazed just how many private health insurers fund homeopathy and not counselling, except for a few apointments with a psychologist.


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## Harry Volting (15/3/15)

Placebo/nocebo all the way.
My wife used to make tinctures many years ago and based on her beliefs at the time; my kids all displayed marvellous recoveries when 'too sick to whatever' with 2 drops of Bach flower remedy applied under the tongue (except that one time compound fracture thingy) until my eldest with her newly acquired tech researched 'homeopathic' on the interwebs.
Now Bach seems to have lost its efficacy.
My wife later revealed that she had been replacing the contents of the dropper bottle with tap water for years.

Harry


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## Liam_snorkel (15/3/15)

The best thing about the placebo effect is that it's real.


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## stewy (15/3/15)

booargy said:


> People trying alternative medicines is on the increase because "real" medicine isnt working for them. The medical industry see this as a threat to their bottom line. It is a bit like the big breweries trying to stop the competition.


Nope, those 2 scenarios are not synonymous at all. The way to determine medicinal efficacy is via Double Blinded Randomized Controlled Trials. Pharmaceutical companies' drugs undergo this process followed by rigorous peer review before they reach market. Alt med remedies undergo no such process. Whenever they are put through DBRCT's they don't perform better than placebo... Ever. This becomes dangerous when people forego actual medicine in lieu of alt med after listening to their chiropractor/naturopath/homeopath. We see rises in vaccine preventable illness (potentially affecting others in society due to their poor choice) as well as many people dying from very treatable cancers because they chose vit c injections/PH diet/coffee enemas or other such witchcraft. So no, it's not mass beer vs craft beer; it's medicine that has been shown to work vs magic water/powder/pills that don't work.


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## MHB (15/3/15)

stewy said:


> Nope, those 2 scenarios are not synonymous at all. The way to determine medicinal efficacy is via Double Blinded Randomized Controlled Trials. Pharmaceutical companies' drugs undergo this process followed by rigorous peer review before they reach market. Alt med remedies undergo no such process. Whenever they are put through DBRCT's they don't perform better than placebo... Ever. This becomes dangerous when people forego actual medicine in lieu of alt med after listening to their chiropractor/naturopath/homeopath. We see rises in vaccine preventable illness (potentially affecting others in society due to their poor choice) as well as many people dying from very treatable cancers because they chose vit c injections/PH diet/coffee enemas or other such witchcraft. So no, it's not mass beer vs craft beer; it's medicine that has been shown to work vs magic water/powder/pills that doesn't work.


Well put
Mark


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## Bribie G (15/3/15)

stewy said:


> Nope, those 2 scenarios are not synonymous at all. The way to determine medicinal efficacy is via Double Blinded Randomized Controlled Trials. Pharmaceutical companies' drugs undergo this process followed by rigorous peer review before they reach market. Alt med remedies undergo no such process. Whenever they are put through DBRCT's they don't perform better than placebo... Ever. This becomes dangerous when people forego actual medicine in lieu of alt med after listening to their chiropractor/naturopath/homeopath. We see rises in vaccine preventable illness (potentially affecting others in society due to their poor choice) as well as many people dying from very treatable cancers because they chose vit c injections/PH diet/coffee enemas or other such witchcraft. So no, it's not mass beer vs craft beer; it's medicine that has been shown to work vs magic water/powder/pills that doesn't work.


Exactly. This is a fairly classical dilemma that emerges from time to time from the Utilitarian school of Philosophy that arose in the early 19th Century.

Ha philosophy, I hear you say.

Well, in fact Utilitarianism (Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill and others) was the public philosophy adopted by most English Speaking nations as society changed drastically due to industrialisation, and it's become so ingrained in our psyches that we don't give it a second thought.

Basically:

Everyone should be free to live their lives as they wish as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. The greatest possible happiness for the most number of people at any one time. We take that as extremely sensible and who could argue, but it's only been around for as long as the First Fleet in fact.

Before that idea took hold, if you stopped someone in the (horseshit strewn) street and asked them how life should be lived they would come out with something radically different, such as "to worship the Lord, avoid sin, be loyal to the King / Lord of the Manor, be prepared to fight in an army and be clean, moral and industrious whilst knowing my place in society as decreed by my betters .. etc....".

However as you can imagine, Utilitarianism has given rise to a number of paradoxes, for example motorcycle helmets. Not wearing a helmet is illegal because it harms others, namely the taxpayers when you crack your head open. In the USA you don't have to wear a helmet because the taxpayer angle isn't involved. Mill himself saw paradoxes in alcoholics who are free to drink, under strict Utilitarianism, but they harmed their families by not providing for them.

Booargy's argument is libertarian, namely you can do whatever you like if you have the money, but as stewy says we should take the "greatest happiness" view in the case of treatments that are preventing people from seeking proper treatment, or causing them to end up as a burden to taxpayers and others and thus his argument is "modernised utilitarianism" that is generally how society stumbles along, at least in most Westernised countries. 

ed: spellngk


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

There is a difference between naturopathy and homeopathy so we shouldnt get them confused

Naturopaths can use homeopathic remedies, but not the other way around.

Naturopaths will give herbs,plant etc with medicinal qualities whereas homeopaths give a remedy of water the has had a picture of some medican flashed past it


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## stewy (15/3/15)

Of course they're different. 

However, Naturopathy is still not evidence based & Naturopaths are often complicit in pushing dangerous pseudo-science & bare some of the responsibility for the rise in vaccine preventable illnesses


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

Yes, but at least haturopaths will use known herbal remidies ( which pharmaceutical drugs have been sourced from, like aspiran etc ). Homeopaths just give you a bottle of water and basically false hope


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## Topher (15/3/15)

Q: What do you call Alternative Medicine that has been proved to work?
A: Medicine.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

Dont be bringing any of that fancy science stuff into this debate. Cant trust them scientist. They all work for the big pharmaceutical companies and we all know we cant trust them


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> There is a difference between naturopathy and homeopathy so we shouldnt get them confused
> 
> Naturopaths can use homeopathic remedies, but not the other way around.
> 
> Naturopaths will give herbs,plant etc with medicinal qualities whereas homeopaths give a remedy of water the has had a picture of some medican flashed past it





Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yes, but at least haturopaths will use known herbal remidies ( which pharmaceutical drugs have been sourced from, like aspiran etc ). Homeopaths just give you a bottle of water and basically false hope


Wow - it took a while, but finally an informed opinion. 
+1 Ducatiboy Stu. 
Maybe those wishing to lump naturopathy with charlatans and placebos should probably check what naturopathy actually is. 
It's actually just a particular philosophical approach to healing someone - to find the root cause of someone's ill health. The choice of modalities and professional conduct, or lack thereof, is up to the individual practitioner. Unfortunately, as an unregulated industry, there's both good and bad and unprofessional naturopaths - like all industries out there. 
Yes, I'm a naturopath. I only practice using diet/lifestyle, nutritional therapies and herbal medicines. I have a science degree majoring in biochem and subsequently sit on the far "sciencey" end of the spectrum of naturopaths. Fwiw, I'm not at all surprised with the findings on homeopathy. I've trained in it and chose not to use it - not solid enough on evidence for me to subscribe to. 
Homeopath does not equal naturopath.


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## stewy (15/3/15)

The point remains valid : naturopathic herbal 'medicines' do NOT pass DBRCT's


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

There is a lot 



stewy said:


> The point remains valid : naturopathic remedies do NOT pass DBRCT's


I dont think that is strictly true. Homeopath yes, Naturopath no.

And there is a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that is valid ( especially when looking and Chinese/Herbal medicine. Ginger for nausea, garlic for cold, beer for stress relief, willow bark for headaches, St Johns Wort for depression, ..etc..), but there is also plenty of straight out bullshit as well.


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## stewy (15/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> There is a lot
> 
> I dont think that is strictly true. Homeopath yes, Naturopath no.
> 
> And there is a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that is valid ( especially when looking and Chinese/Herbal medicine. Ginger for nausea, garlic for cold, beer for stress relief, willow bark for headaches, St Johns Wort for depression, ..etc..), but there is also plenty of straight out bullshit as well.


Anecdote =/= data

Herbal meds/ Chinese meds have been put through DBRCT's, they fail. We cannot say medicine works unless it passes a DBRCT as its crucial to eliminate both cognitive bias & placebo effect


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## Liam_snorkel (15/3/15)

There's plenty of "real" medicine that's no better than a placebo too. Phenylephrine for example.


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## Bribie G (15/3/15)

Friend of mine is undergoing cancer treatment and has been a fan of Chinese herbal medicine for years but has gone strictly conventional (operation etc). The specialist says that they are actually doing a big test of Chinese herbs at the John Hunter Hospital and find that some of them have "encouraging" properties. After all nearly all our most powerful drugs came originally from plants ... aspirin from willow bark, penicillin from mould, opioids from poppies, birth control pills from some plant out of the Amazon, beer from barley. I'd guess a lot of the Chinese concoctions could be helpful, but a lot of them superstition.


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## stewy (15/3/15)

Yes you're right, although prescription meds pass DBRCT. Over the counter meds can be just as ineffective as alt meds


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## Liam_snorkel (15/3/15)

Fair point


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## wide eyed and legless (15/3/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> The best thing about the placebo effect is that it's real.


And it still works even if you know its a placebo!


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## mckenry (15/3/15)

All this talk reminds me of the Steiner school. I lived next door to a woman whos kid went to one. 11 years old and this kid could hardly read and his maths was terrible (I did baby sit him a few times and checked him out).
Should have seen him paint his emotions though. **** me!


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

stewy said:


> The point remains valid : naturopathic herbal 'medicines' do NOT pass DBRCT's


Not *entirely* correct. In fact, completely false.
I've recently discovered this amazing new device called "Google". I tried "searching" on the Internets for "double blind randomised control trial herbal medicine"
Apparently some studies have been done.
Note: This was exactly the first search i did, non-doctored. Not all of those results are positive. For example, the third one on Echinacea reports a failure of prophylaxis, but a 10-20% reduction in the risk of infection of an URTI. However, another way of saying this is that Echinacea has been shown to not immunise against the common cold (surprise surprise) but results in a mild to moderate reduction in the incidence. Keeping in mind the subjects could still be pie-eating, smoking alcoholics. So obviously these herbal medicines will be worth squat if you're still a complete idiot with your lifestyle - well, actually not useless, approximately 10-20% effective, apparently. 
I don't mean to get stuck into you, Stewy, but your statement is patently not true. I can only assume you might've mixed up "homeopathic" remedies with "herbal" remedies. Very, very different things.
As mentioned above, just check White Willow Bark, St John's wort, Echinacea, Ginger, etc. They're all herbal medicines. They all have significant effects shown in DBRCT's. There are hundreds of other herbal medicines out there. Some have been researched and many others haven't. Many traditional uses have been debunked and many others haven't.
Sadly there're many dubious naturopaths out there that do not chose to use evidence-based medicines/therapies, and there's quite a few that are seriously dangerous in there negligent advice to patients. And sadly they're particularly good at lightening the wallets of foolish &/or trusting people. Any good medical practitioner should know the bounds of their expertise and when to refer. Any good practitioner *does* know this - it's the dodgy charlatans that are the big problem, as are the ones that have blinding faith in their skills/"gifts".
Unfortunately, there's also far too many people out there who are just too trusting or simply want to believe, and these practitioners can easily take advantage of them. Tragically they just don't seem to stop at any point and think "hang on, this guy's full of shit", especially when they or their loved ones are clearly not getting any better or the modality seems patently irrational. Welcome to an unregulated industry! (actually kinda similar to the financial advice industry  ).

I'd point out that DBRCT's are *extremely* expensive and the funding is simply not out there for Herbal medicines, hence there is an extreme lack of research for this field - i.e.: money rather than a lack of efficacy is the main reason for the lack of research on herbal medicines. Yet another extremely strong argument for government-funded research organisations rather than leaving it all up to private organisations. CSIRO FTW.

Just as a minor point to consider: for 40-odd years, the message from doctors/GPs/AMA and dieticians was that all fat was bad and we should all be eating low protein diets high in cereals. There were only a few lone voices who decried the ridiculousness of this advice, based on the actual, documented, biochemical research science at the time - namely by a small number of biochemists, nutritional therapists and _naturopaths_. These lone voices were essentially persecuted by the medical fraternity for years. I think we know how that turned out.
Always make sure you're reading/listening to the actual science, rather than someone else's unfounded opinion or a lobby group. And appreciate the limit of a so-called expert or professional's knowledge. 
... exactly the same philosophy to always apply to brewing (as well as life)!

I hope that wasn't too ranty. 
And apologies to Stewy or others - this is intended to clarify a misunderstanding rather than have a go at anyone.

Btw, BribieG, the vid in the OP is a pissa. Homeopathic lager - too funny!


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

Topher said:


> Q: What do you call Alternative Medicine that has been proved to work?
> A: Medicine.


Q: What do you call a Medicine that isn't patented by a multi-billion-dollar, multi-national pharmaceutical company?
A: Alternative.


Sorry Topher, couldn't resist


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

What I want to know is if bottled water is anymore healthy than tap water...

And if Homeopathy really worked, all we would need to do is drop about 1ltr of homeopathic medicine in Warragamba Dam and that would be enough to cure the entire population of Sydney.

Its got me F&^%D how they missed that one. So damn simple.. Hell it worked with Fluride and tooth decay


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## paulyman (15/3/15)

I really wish homeopathy did work. I could brew commercial scale for a mere fraction of the cost I currently brew 36L.


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## Bribie G (15/3/15)

Hey Stu I eat Paleo and I'm only a couple of years off 70

K
a 
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kkkkkkkkkkkkkk


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

paulyman said:


> I really wish homeopathy did work. I could brew commercial scale for a mere fraction of the cost I currently brew 36L.


Maybe someone should tell the smack-heads and ice addicts - make their addictions a shite load cheaper!


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

What I dont get with homeopathy is the fact that the weaker dilution, the better it is supposed to work...

Sort of the opposite to beer... :unsure:


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## stewy (15/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Not *entirely* correct. In fact, completely false.
> I've recently discovered this amazing new device called "Google". I tried "searching" on the Internets for "double blind randomised control trial herbal medicine"
> Apparently some studies have been done.
> Note: This was exactly the first search i did, non-doctored. Not all of those results are positive. For example, the third one on Echinacea reports a failure of prophylaxis, but a 10-20% reduction in the risk of infection of an URTI. However, another way of saying this is that Echinacea has been shown to not immunise against the common cold (surprise surprise) but results in a mild to moderate reduction in the incidence. Keeping in mind the subjects could still be pie-eating, smoking alcoholics. So obviously these herbal medicines will be worth squat if you're still a complete idiot with your lifestyle - well, actually not useless, approximately 10-20% effective, apparently.
> ...


I'm well aware of Google. I prefer google scholar when researching as it tends to minimise the junk science. I'm aware there have been many DBRCT's on herbal medicine. I have read several on St John's Wort, Ginger relating to colds & echinacea. I still haven't seen one (doesn't mean they don't exist) that is able to conclude that they work, I've only ever seen 'plausible'. I have read entire studies, not just the abstract & also read several meta analyses. Again, I haven't found a peer reviewed, replicated study that has reached a conclusion of the 3 mentioned herbal meds being efficacious. 
Of course if you use google you will find plenty of links to Natural News that will show 'studies' claiming efficacy.....
Also, did you read many of those studies you linked? I read the first 4. None of them have concluded efficacy. The one showing the most promise is based on N=41!!


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

@Ducatiboy Stu
Because a German Guy tells us so.
FWIW, he was a doctor.

It's all about potentisation.

If you think about it, we're all drinking homeopathic beer ... and urine ... and faeces. 
Basically if I poop (material) in the ocean (solvent) and an earthquake occurs (succession), you're supping on my homeopathic poop. Luckily, both those events have occurred in the last decade. Sleep well. B)

Homeopathic Lager, FTW!!


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

Alll makes sense after reading this on Wikipeadia......they even had a Swiss Scientist bloke  . I wonder if the water memory affect would be different with beer....would the water remember what essential property it was supposed to have...

Homeopaths maintain that this water retains some "essential property" of the original material, because the preparation has been shaken after each dilution.[22]Hahnemann believed that the dynamisation or shaking of the solution caused a "spirit-like" healing force to be released from within the substance. Even though the homeopathic remedies are often extremely diluted, homeopaths maintain that a healing force is retained by these homeopathic preparations.[21] Modern advocates of homeopathy have proposed a concept of "water memory", according to which water "remembers" the substances mixed in it, and transmits the effect of those substances when consumed. This concept is inconsistent with the current understanding of matter, and water memory has never been demonstrated to have any detectable effect, biological or otherwise. However one disputed study into the so-called memory of water, conducted by Jacques Benveniste, claims to have demonstrated that that water can be energetically imprinted upon.[23][24][25] Another such study, published in 2003 by Swiss chemist Louis Rey, claims to have found that homeopathically diluted solutions of sodium chloride and lithium chloride have a very different hydrogen bond structure from normal water, as measured by thermoluminescence.[26][27]


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

stewy said:


> I'm well aware of Google. I prefer google scholar when researching as it tends to minimise the junk science. I'm aware there have been many DBRCT's on herbal medicine. I have read several on St John's Wort, Ginger relating to colds & echinacea. I still haven't seen one (doesn't mean they don't exist) that is able to conclude that they work, I've only ever seen 'plausible'. I have read entire studies, not just the abstract & also read several meta analyses. Again, I haven't found a peer reviewed, replicated study that has reached a conclusion of the 3 mentioned herbal meds being efficacious.
> Of course if you use google you will find plenty of links to Natural News that will show 'studies' claiming efficacy.....


Yep, google scholar is much better.
I'm v pleased to hear you've trudged through entire papers - i wish everyone else would bother do the same. However, you've gotta keep it all in an appropriate context.
i.e.: I'm not sure what you're looking for in the results/discussion/conclusions - most science papers talk about "moderate" this and "likely" that. Realistically, it's pretty much impossible to "prove" something. It's more like "the evidence seems to reasonably fit the hypothesis without an unacceptable level of exceptions." Hence, "until someone shows differently, we'll run with this theory". Or words to that effect.
That's basically how the science thing works.
"Proof" is a fallacy the believers propagate. 
That's the biggest reason the Climate Change issue is still debated. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## krausenhaus (15/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Q: What do you call a Medicine that isn't patented by a multi-billion-dollar, multi-national pharmaceutical company?
> A: Alternative. _Generic_
> 
> 
> Sorry Topher, couldn't resist


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## stewy (15/3/15)

.


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## stewy (15/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Yep, google scholar is much better.
> I'm v pleased to hear you've trudged through entire papers - i wish everyone else would bother do the same. However, you've gotta keep it all in an appropriate context.
> i.e.: I'm not sure what you're looking for in the results/discussion/conclusions - most science papers talk about "moderate" this and "likely" that. Realistically, it's pretty much impossible to "prove" something. It's more like "the evidence seems to reasonably fit the hypothesis without an unacceptable level of exceptions." Hence, "until someone shows differently, we'll run with this theory". Or words to that effect.
> That's basically how the science thing works.
> ...


Ummm, yeah, I'm quite well versed in how the science works. Proof is only for maths & alcohol. 

When the studies have such small sample sizes it's not possible to reach a conclusion. The ones you linked are all very small. With a large enough sample size it's quite possible to see a significant difference in the groups to conclude with high level of confidence that x is effective at treating y. Most you linked conclude that there is not enough evidence to suggest x is effective in treating y


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/3/15)

If climate change caused the water to evaporate from a homeopathic solution,therefore making it less effective because it is now stronger, would it create a paradox..?


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

stewy said:


> Ummm, yeah, I'm quite well versed in how the science works. Proof is only for maths & alcohol.
> 
> When the studies have such small sample sizes it's not possible to reach a conclusion. The ones you linked are all very small. With a large enough sample size it's quite possible to see a significant difference in the groups to conclude with high level of confidence that x is effective at treating y. Most you linked conclude that there is not enough evidence to suggest x is effective in treating y


Depends what you're calling "small" or "significant". Morgan Gallop polls used to be conducted with around 100 people, and n=100 is generally considered a decent sample size for "meaningful" statistical analysis. 2 of the first 4 have 300+ in them.
When you say "evidence to suggest x is effective in treating y", again, what are you looking for? Not many medicines/remedies out there claim to treat an illness in the sense of curing it. However, if you're looking for a meaningful or effective reduction in symptoms, then most of those in the link, or thousands of others, do so.
Have you checked the research papers for pharmaceutical remedies for mild to moderate depression, as an example? No cures there. If you're examining whether an herbal remedy is "effective in treating y" you need to check what you mean by "effective" and "treating" and whether you are applying the same rigorous yardstick to all other options.


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

krausenhaus said:


> > Q: What do you call a Medicine that isn't patented by a multi-billion-dollar, multi-national pharmaceutical company?
> > A: Alternative. _Generic_
> >
> >
> > Sorry Topher technobabble66, couldn't resist


Funny bugger.
Also FIFY


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## technobabble66 (15/3/15)

FWIW, my Imperial Stout from the July 2014 Vic Case Swap has been shown to be moderately awesome and is effective in treating sobriety in 100% of cases, where n=1 :lol:

Hey Stewy, it's been entertaining debating with you. Hope you have a great night! How about next time you're in Melb's i'll try to convince you otherwise over a beer or three? It's pumpkin time for me.
Cheers,
Stu


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## stewy (15/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Depends what you're calling "small" or "significant". Morgan Gallop polls used to be conducted with around 100 people, and n=100 is generally considered a decent sample size for "meaningful" statistical analysis. 2 of the first 4 have 300+ in them.
> When you say "evidence to suggest x is effective in treating y", again, what are you looking for? Not many medicines/remedies out there claim to treat an illness in the sense of curing it. However, if you're looking for a meaningful or effective reduction in symptoms, then most of those in the link, or thousands of others, do so.
> Have you checked the research papers for pharmaceutical remedies for mild to moderate depression, as an example? No cures there. If you're examining whether an herbal remedy is "effective in treating y" you need to check what you mean by "effective" and "treating" and whether you are applying the same rigorous yardstick to all other options.


Of course I'm not after a study showing a cure. A significant difference between groups would suffice 


Study 1: N=29 
Study 2: N= 202 Conclusion - Ada's cog score 1.4 better than placebo; Gerri score .14 better. Yay
Study 3: Conclusion - ...effect of echinacea extracts could not be shown..... One could *speculate* (great science) there might be an effect...
Study 4: N= 42

Do you think these are good studies? Most of those in the link *do not* show a meaningful reduction n symptoms as you claim. 
I agree with you regarding studies on depression. We don't have a very good understanding on the cause which makes it difficult to treat. 

I apply the same rigorous yard stick to all studies. Until we see DBRCT's that have been replicated, peer reviewed involving large sample sizes, we can't really reach a conclusion with high levels of confidence. Another vital part of the process is a clear explanation of the mechanisms. Without establishing causal regularity & understanding the mechanisms, we can't have predictability, which is vital in effective treatment planning.


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## stewy (16/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> FWIW, my Imperial Stout from the July 2014 Vic Case Swap has been shown to be moderately awesome and is effective in treating sobriety in 100% of cases, where n=1 :lol:
> 
> Hey Stewy, it's been entertaining debating with you. Hope you have a great night! How about next time you're in Melb's i'll try to convince you otherwise over a beer or three? It's pumpkin time for me.
> Cheers,
> Stu


Haha. When it comes to beer testing, sample size of 1 is plenty to conclude awesomeness!!

Will definitely take you up on a beer in Mel

Sleep well


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/15)

All this DBRCT stuff is well and good, but what if it works for some and not others ? This happens a lot in real medicine. Thats why doctors change medications to see which one works.


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## goomboogo (16/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> All this DBRCT stuff is well and good, but what if it works for some and not others ? This happens a lot in real medicine. Thats why doctors change medications to see which one works.


This is a problem with what you refer to as real medicine. Throwing darts at the pharmaceutical dart board and hoping for the best is not uncommon when treating depressive symptoms.


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## Dave70 (16/3/15)

Goodness me, this tread with all its links is a bit wordy and has taken so long to read I've developed a crick in my neck.
I'm off to see the chiropractor.


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## Dave70 (16/3/15)

Bribie G said:


> Friend of mine is undergoing cancer treatment and has been a fan of Chinese herbal medicine for years but has gone strictly conventional (operation etc). The specialist says that they are actually doing a big test of Chinese herbs at the John Hunter Hospital and find that some of them have "encouraging" properties. After all nearly all our most powerful drugs came originally from plants ... aspirin from willow bark, penicillin from mould, opioids from poppies, birth control pills from some plant out of the Amazon, beer from barley.* I'd guess a lot of the Chinese concoctions could be helpful, but a lot of them superstition*.


Tiger penis > Sildenafil hands down.


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## stewy (16/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> All this DBRCT stuff is well and good, but what if it works for some and not others ? This happens a lot in real medicine. Thats why doctors change medications to see which one works.


Every medication & even procedure has a failure rate. Perfection doesn't exist. 
DBRCT will show you if a medicine will work better than a placebo in large groups of people. So the medicine might reduce the symptoms in 89% of people in the experimental group but in the placebo group the symptoms are reduced in only 25% of the people, we can say that the medicine is obviously effective.


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## pcmfisher (16/3/15)

Have you seen how much those bastard Pharmacists make?


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/15)

Dave70 said:


> Goodness me, this tread with all its links is a bit wordy and has taken so long to read I've developed a crick in my neck.
> I'm off to see the chiropractor.


No need for dodgy bone crackers, I have about 1000ltrs of homeopathic medicine at home stored in a rainwater tank. Seeing as your a top bloke and all that I well send in an Orchy bottle ( which can also be used to administer herbal medicines, or so i have been told ) full. I will make sure i drive past the local hospital and give it a good shake so that it can remember what to do when you get it


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/15)

pcmfisher said:


> Have you seen how much those bastard Pharmacists make?


Not as much as those other blokes who sell " pharmaceuticals "


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## manticle (16/3/15)

What would homeopaths do if the push to ban dihydrogen monoxide came to fruition?


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/15)

Dangerous stuff that dihydrogen monoxide. I am supprised that Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration has not already looked into homeopaths using this dangerous susbtance


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## manticle (16/3/15)

Homeopaths live on the edge.
If they do ban it, I guess they could always try another technology like trephination? Many patients report feeling much better afterwards.


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## MHB (16/3/15)

How does the old ditty go....

Blows a hole in the brain
Lets in the rain
Acts as a drain...


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/15)

Pete Evans new Paleo cookbook for kids has been shelved by the publishers. 



Gutted.......



http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/03/16/pan-macmillan-no-longer-publishing-pete-evans-paleo-cookbook-kids


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## Liam_snorkel (16/3/15)

can't stand that smug bastard.


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## technobabble66 (16/3/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> can't stand that smug orange bastard.


FIFY


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## Dave70 (17/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No need for dodgy bone crackers, I have about 1000ltrs of homeopathic medicine at home stored in a rainwater tank. Seeing as your a top bloke and all that I well send in an Orchy bottle ( which can also be used to administer herbal medicines, or so i have been told ) full. I will make sure i drive past the local hospital and give it a good shake so that it can remember what to do when you get it


Cheers.

If its not to much bother, can you sit the Orchy bottle in a shoe box next to a packet of Nurofen overnight before you post it in order to absorb the aura. 

PS: And throw in about a 4" piece of garden hose if you have any.

PPS: "Targeted pain relief" and similar claims are a scam. 

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/accc-seeing-red-reckitt-benckiser-taken-to-court-over-multicoloured-nurofen-packs/story-fnagkbpv-1227248891160


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## Dave70 (17/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Pete Evans new Paleo cookbook for kids has been shelved by the publishers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Bubba Yum Yum – The Paleo Way - for new mums. _
Should have been banned on the gag inducing cringeworthtness of the title alone, but the 'DIY infant formula' really takes the ******* biscuit. About what I'd expect when a celebrity chef, blogger and naturopath join forces to sniff out another branch they can harvest a few paleo dollars from. 

Call me cynical, I can take it.


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## goomboogo (17/3/15)

I fed all the kids bone broth when they were babies. It seemed logical; what else would babies have eaten in the paleolithic period?


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## mje1980 (17/3/15)

Mine loved brontosaurus burgers and fried pterodactyl wings. Farted like troopers though. My mate barney and I ate very well in those days. No one ever had a heart attack from all the fat coz you were eaten by animals before you hit 40.


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## wide eyed and legless (17/3/15)

stewy said:


> Every medication & even procedure has a failure rate. Perfection doesn't exist.
> DBRCT will show you if a medicine will work better than a placebo in large groups of people. So the medicine might reduce the symptoms in 89% of people in the experimental group but in the placebo group the symptoms are reduced in only 25% of the people, we can say that the medicine is obviously effective.


It would be interesting to do an experiment as to why the placebo worked in 25% it obviously has to do with the mindset of those people, it would be the same with homeopathic medicine, chinese herbs and the like if the patients participating truly believe that the results would be positive then like the placebo the results would be similar.
I think the state of mind is a very powerful tool as an aid to overcoming illness, there is even placebo surgery which has had 100% positive results for those taking part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvbQnMvhQFw


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## Bribie G (17/3/15)

I believe that food is medicine, and the John Hunter Hospital supports me in this. As an example here's the breakfast I had yesterday in the hospital cafe while I was waiting for my mate to be discharged.



Actually take away the toast and it's paleo compliant so they _nearly _got it right . Cracking good value for $12 - I counted 8 streaky bacon rashers


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## Bribie G (17/3/15)

And another thing, why are Pharmacists almost always Happy Clapping Fundo Christos? Whenever I go into a chemist they always seem to be playing Christian radio, you know:

(accompanied by happy mainstream rock music)
I long for the light
I live in darkness
Show me the light
Where is the light
Take me into the light

Ad ******* nauseam

edit: LEDs are coming down in price you silly twats


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## stewy (17/3/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It would be interesting to do an experiment as to why the placebo worked in 25% it obviously has to do with the mindset of those people, it would be the same with homeopathic medicine, chinese herbs and the like if the patients participating truly believe that the results would be positive then like the placebo the results would be similar.
> I think the state of mind is a very powerful tool as an aid to overcoming illness, there is even placebo surgery which has had 100% positive results for those taking part.


The placebo effect is well documented & has been studied. It works in some people but the effects are not as long lasting as meds. 
Also, it can't stop cancerous cells from mutating or treat pathogens, which is why it's extremely dangerous when people recommend homeopathy in lieu of vaccination or vit c injections instead of chemo


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## tavas (17/3/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> can't stand that smug bastard.


For some reason I always think of this when I see Pete and Manu sitting together


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## billygoat (17/3/15)

tavas said:


> For some reason I always think of this when I see Pete and Manu sitting together


And snorts cocaine.


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## fraser_john (17/3/15)

My daughter has been struggling with mental health issues for last six months, really severe and hard for us as parents to deal with and understand. They have had her on all sorts of drugs and visiting a psychologist and psychiatrist ever month, hard on the wallet that.

Read a news article last week courtesy of Kirem, some people with anxiety have a genetic defect that blocks absorption of Folic Acid (vitamin B-9). By using bio activated B9 (Folinic Acid) such people can then get the B9 needed by their body/mind to control anxiety.

I trundle off to chemist to get some ($90, ten tablets)!!! FFS. But, give one to my daughter. Two hours later "how you feeling" ..... the answer.... AWESOME. She has been back to school for two days in a row, first time in months. She is eating properly again after losing 20% of her body weight, or 10kg.

Psychiatrist says "no, we want to keep her on the visits to me and the anti depressives" fark that you rip off karnt!


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## wide eyed and legless (17/3/15)

stewy said:


> The placebo effect is well documented & has been studied. It works in some people but the effects are not as long lasting as meds.
> Also, it can't stop cancerous cells from mutating or treat pathogens, which is why it's extremely dangerous when people recommend homeopathy in lieu of vaccination or vit c injections instead of chemo


Cancer researchers do not, and will not confirm that cancer can be beaten by a state of mind until they have scientific evidence of this, many people who have had cancer, which has either disappeared or gone into remission without any explanation they are at a loss to explain why, though they do say that stressful people WILL suffer ill health and would be prone to cancer.
I was reading of an oncologist who was talking about a female patient of his who had cancer several times which should have killed her but the cancer disappears, when asked for an explanation he replied he had no idea why the cancer disappeared but whatever it was she had he wished he could bottle it.
The mind is more powerful than what we give credit for.


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## stewy (17/3/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Cancer researchers do not, and will not confirm that cancer can be beaten by a state of mind until they have scientific evidence of this, many people who have had cancer, which has either disappeared or gone into remission without any explanation they are at a loss to explain why, though they do say that stressful people WILL suffer ill health and would be prone to cancer.
> I was reading of an oncologist who was talking about a female patient of his who had cancer several times which should have killed her but the cancer disappears, when asked for an explanation he replied he had no idea why the cancer disappeared but whatever it was she had he wished he could bottle it.
> The mind is more powerful than what we give credit for.


You are speaking about spontaneous remission. It occurs in approx 1 out of 100,000 people. The mechanism is not understood unfortunately. 
To date the only 2 things we have observed that can work are poisoning it or cutting it out.

I agree the mind is extremely powerful, I just don't accept that it can cure cancerous cells based on the evidence at hand. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission


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## wide eyed and legless (17/3/15)

The 1 in a 100,000 could be wrong either way,as it said in that link a comprehensive study on breast cancer found that 22% went into spontaneous remission, as mentioned before without scientific evidence of what occurred cancer researchers will not even guess why. And the reason they claim that only 2 things work is because of scientific evidence that they work, not one researcher would put pen to paper and say what they may believe will work without evidence, its like the placebo, why does that work no one knows, except it has to be the mind and nothing else, also the surgical placebo that was carried out with 100% positive result one of the patients was tracked down after 7 years and was still fine.(Though I wouldn't rule out that the others may have been found and could have spoilt a good documentary)


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## wide eyed and legless (17/3/15)

Sorry to hear about your daughter John, how often does she have to take the tablet?


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## stewy (17/3/15)

Yes it could be wrong. 

Point is, "mind over matter" is of no utility when trying to establish predictable treatments. If we clearly understood the mechanisms involved with SR it would be very useful, but we don't.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/3/15)

fraser_john said:


> My daughter has been struggling with mental health issues for last six months, really severe and hard for us as parents to deal with and understand. They have had her on all sorts of drugs and visiting a psychologist and psychiatrist ever month, hard on the wallet that.
> 
> Read a news article last week courtesy of Kirem, some people with anxiety have a genetic defect that blocks absorption of Folic Acid (vitamin B-9). By using bio activated B9 (Folinic Acid) such people can then get the B9 needed by their body/mind to control anxiety.
> 
> ...


Diet plays a big part helping with depression and anxiety. A pshycologist told me that the pills are not the bee all and end all, diet played a big part. Basically depression is cause by a lack of serotonin in the brain, and anti-depressants help to stop the absorption of serotonin. The key was to eat foods that are high in Tryptophann as tryptophan is needed to make serotonin in the bowl/gut. And Vitamin B supplements also helps as well with serotonin levels. A handfull of cashew nuts is supposed to as good as an anti-depressant


* Note. there is a bit more to it than that, and the above is a very broad description.


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## goomboogo (17/3/15)

Stu, there is yet to be any evidence to support the notion that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin. The absence of evidence hasn't stopped the idea being bandied about by health practitioners including GPs, Psychologists and Psychiatrists. This doesn't mean SSRIs won't have an impact on an individual's depressive symptoms. It's just not known at this stage the reason underlying the effect.

Chemical imbalance in the brain causing depression in an a priori concept. One of the difficulties for the concept is the possibility that a chemically balanced brain may not exist. At this stage, there hasn't been any research proffered that identifies what a chemically balanced brain looks like.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/3/15)

In the old days they just used to give you a labotomy.


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## goomboogo (17/3/15)

The wheel has turned enough where ECT is back in the treatment possibilities. Maybe lobotomies will make a comeback soon.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/3/15)

Its a bit the same with anti-depressants. The old ones are being looked at over newer ones.

Medicine is a black art.


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## simplefisherman (18/3/15)

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy. ..


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## fraser_john (18/3/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Sorry to hear about your daughter John, how often does she have to take the tablet?


It is just a 15mg tablet so twice a day to stave off the anxiety, have found some folinic acid online and it is 100mg so should last her all day....


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## wide eyed and legless (18/3/15)

I hope it's a lot cheaper than what you paid initially. Best of luck and I hope she recovers fully.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/3/15)

I am going gluten intolerant

https://youtu.be/Oht9AEq1798


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## Airgead (21/3/15)

goomboogo said:


> I fed all the kids bone broth when they were babies. It seemed logical; what else would babies have eaten in the paleolithic period?


Sure they did.

Mind you, 90% of them died before their 5th birthday as well...

Paleo will help you live to old age. remembering that back in the paleolithic, old age was 40.


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## goomboogo (21/3/15)

Airgead said:


> Sure they did.
> 
> Mind you, 90% of them died before their 5th birthday as well...
> 
> Paleo will help you live to old age. remembering that back in the paleolithic, old age was 40.


I was joking. The punchline was 'breast milk'.


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## Airgead (22/3/15)

goomboogo said:


> I was joking. The punchline was 'breast milk'.


I was 90% sure you were.... but there is so much crap talked about paleo that you just can't be sure whether joking or serious...

Of all the fad diets, paleo would have to be the one that gets right up me. Most of them don't even pretend to be scientific, but paleo wraps its self in so much pseudo-scientific gobbldygook. "Its scientifically proven" paleo devotees will say before spouting a torrent of absolute crap.

Cheers
Dave


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## goomboogo (22/3/15)

Airgead, I am surprised at the level of aggression exhibited by some paleo dillettantes. Some people have become evangelical to the point where alternative views are assessed only as personal attacks. Sitting here on a Sunday morning, I'm almost expecting a knock at the door from someone wanting to tell me about the science of a paleolithic lifestyle.


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## Mardoo (22/3/15)

Anyone truly serious about paleo would eat the occasional human.


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## goomboogo (22/3/15)

I'm locking the front door right now.


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## Airgead (22/3/15)

I like to ask paleo people which particular paleolithic people they are modeling their diet after... is the the hunter gatherers of the Iberian peninsula who ate mostly deer and berries, the ancient people of England who ate a lot of wheat (yes, wheat... made into bread), the bushmen of the kalahari whose diet is 80% tubers, the sammi people of siberia who lived on reindeer and lichen or the Inuit of the north who lived exclusively on seal blubber and fermented seabirds (still eaten today...and sound really disgusting.. sandor katz has some nice quotes from Inuit elders in his book)?

Its also fun to tell them that they can't eat bacon. That paleo compliant meal someone posted above that consisted of sos,eggs and bacon - nitrates as a cure was probably late bronze age if not early iron age so no bacon, sausages were bronze age again (too hard to mince meat before metals). You can have the eggs, but only if you collect them from wild birds by raiding nests. And eat the developing chick as well. Bread, btw is fine. A lot of paleolithic people ate bread. Probably not wonder white but ground up grain or other starch made into flat breads. Grinding stones for grain and other starches are one of the more common stone tools we find.

Paleo is 100% crap and 0% science. Its just an excuse to eat crap and feel smug about it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/3/15)

No Bacon....... h34r:


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## TheWiggman (22/3/15)

I'd argue there's some science behind it. The major flaw with the paleo concept is that the proponents tend to promote the evidence that supports it, and reject the evidence that doesn't. Like most diets though, it works for overweight people because you are simply managing the food you are eating and exercising appropriately. Most overweight people tend not to do either. 
Homeopathy on the other hand - zero science, because if there was it would have died a quick death many moons ago.


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## WarmerBeer (22/3/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Homeopathy on the other hand - zero science, because if there was it would have died a quick death many moons ago.


Not if they mix it one part in ten thousand, then apply 3 drops under the tongue.


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## TheWiggman (23/3/15)

One part in ten thousand? Strong as buggery. They normally range from 6X to 30X where the x is oddly represented as 10. A 6X mix is 1 part in 10^6, to the other end where 30X is 1 part in 10^30. Chemically this is so low that an atom can't be considered present in a glass of water with certainty. So a workaround was developed. Hahnemann thought that if a solution was agitated enough, the water would retain a spiritual imprint of the original substance, and could then be diluted without limit.
Yep.


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## Airgead (23/3/15)

Yep. To drag this back on topic, homeopathy is right up there with paleo in terms of the crap:science ratio.

For homeopathy to work you do indeed need to (as Tim said) "take physics and bin it"


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## Dave70 (23/3/15)

Airgead said:


> Paleo is 100% crap and 0% science.


Paleo and its ilk are 100% science. Marketing science.


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## Airgead (27/3/15)

Interesting article on The Conversation today on the obsessive nature of paleo and other fad dieters... to the extent that they are considering introducing a new mental illness - orthorexia nervosa (obsession with correct eating)

https://theconversation.com/orthorexia-nervosa-when-righteous-eating-becomes-an-obsession-36484


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/3/15)

Is Homeopathy Halal..?


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## sponge (27/3/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Is Homeopathy Halal..?


Nothing a CPA won't fix..


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