# Bathurst (nsw) 2009 Results



## lagerman (14/9/09)

Attached are the winners for our homebrew comp. for 2009.
As our first go at the BJCP it went off well and it was great to see a few new entrants this year.
Our Presentation Night was attended by 90 people and was MC'd for the first time by the B-Rock announcers who are our main sponsors.
Unfortunately a few people who persisted in talking during the presentation did make it difficult for the awards to be announced to all that were interested.
I want to thank those who helped out in so many ways. I hope you all had a great weekend in Bathurst.
Those listed below were part of our sponsorship package and a big thank you goes to them as well.

B-Rock 99.3FM
Bathurst Trophies & Gifts
The Country Brewer
Brewcraft
Reliance Credit Union (In Bathurst)
Subway (for the lunches)
The Kelso Hotel/Motel (for the venue)
The Mudgee Brewery
Keith and Scotty (for their kegs of beer)

Cheers
Brian (The Bigfella) 

View attachment 2009_Results.pdf


----------



## pjwhite5 (14/9/09)

Sweet, my first comp and picked up first place for my northern brown ale. 


Life is good

Cheers all


----------



## Gulpa (14/9/09)

Awesome. A first and a third. 

Big thanks Brian, Sponsors, Judges and all the other admins that made this comp possible. :icon_chickcheers: I hope it was enough fun for you all to want to do it again next year.

cheers
Andrew.


----------



## Bizier (14/9/09)

Thanks for the opportunity guys and girls.

Thanks to Vitalstatistix for bing the awesome deluxe beer chauffeur.


----------



## KillerRx4 (14/9/09)

Yeah! I got a HC! 

what is HC?


----------



## megs80 (14/9/09)

Stoked! Picked up a 2nd place.

Thanks to all involved in organisation and judging. A big cheers for Vitalstatistix for delivering the beer.

Cant wait for the score sheets.


----------



## matho (14/9/09)

cool 2nd in apa thanks to everyone involved wish i could have gone but had to work :angry:


----------



## petesbrew (14/9/09)

Well done Matho!

Pretty happy. 2 HC's out of 3 beers entered! Looking forward to judging notes.
Well done to all involved.


----------



## glennheinzel (14/9/09)

I'm stoked with getting a Highly Commended in my first comp (and it only missed out on a placing by a couple of points). Woohoo! 

Congrats to the judges, organisers, sponsors, winners, place getters, everyone on AHB for countless advice, my mum, my dad, my wife (wait, not her), my boys...


----------



## matho (14/9/09)

petesbrew said:


> Well done Matho!
> 
> Pretty happy. 2 HC's out of 3 beers entered! Looking forward to judging notes.
> Well done to all involved.




right back at you mate 
on holidays this week but next week ill bring you and luigi each a bottle

edit: btw is 145 the most users ever online we might have set a record


----------



## petesbrew (14/9/09)

matho said:


> right back at you mate
> on holidays this week but next week ill bring you and luigi each a bottle


...and a Dubbel right back at ya. :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## matho (14/9/09)

excellent!! sorry had to reply just to get my 100th post :lol:


----------



## beers (14/9/09)

Nice, I scored a 1st, 2nd, & 2x HC's. Gotta be happy with that  
Thanks to all the volunteers involved in organising & judging. & congrats to the winners & place getters :icon_cheers: - especially Barry Cranston - 20 places/HC's!!!... am I counting right? :blink: Nice effort  

Cheers,

Dan.


----------



## Damian44 (14/9/09)

Woot, i got a HC for my pilsner (all be it a distant 5th). Since than ive got a chiller and polyclar. Whens the next comp on?

Thanks for all the effort everyone put in, in organizing the event.


----------



## drmush (14/9/09)

Thanks for posting the results. Great Competition and well done for those guys who received the top awards..Any chance of letting us lesser mortals know where we are in the pecking order?

Cheers
Geoff


----------



## lagerman (14/9/09)

Another quick note to tell you all that the Judges Sheets, Certificates and Prizes are all packed and will be mailed out on Wednesday.

Don't forget that anyone on the Results Sheet with a "Q" have qualified to enter the National Comp. in Canberra in October.

When you get your package it will have some info in there about how to enter your beer in the Nationals.

Cheers

Brian (The Bigfella)


----------



## Vitalstatistix (14/9/09)

Big thanks to all involved for holding the comp! I too am looking forward to getting the score sheets back.

Good luck and well done to everyone who qualified for the nationals!


----------



## schooey (14/9/09)

Well done to all, especially those qualifying for the Nationals. Great to see the Craft Brewing scene is definitely alive and well in Bathurst, and the Bathurst Brewers should commend themselves on a very good weekend.

Just a small note, Brian, I'm pretty confident Danny Hannan's first placed RIS was not a kit beer... not unless he was telling a few of us porkies at the presentation night anyway...


----------



## Josh (15/9/09)

Very happy with three 3rds for Munich Helles, APA and Weizen. All heading to the nationals. 
Can't wait to get home and read the judging sheets.

Thanks to all involved. Wish I could have been there.


----------



## kabooby (15/9/09)

Thanks to everyone involved in putting this comp together. 

Very much appreciated.

Kabooby


----------



## lagerman (15/9/09)

schooey said:


> Well done to all, especially those qualifying for the Nationals. Great to see the Craft Brewing scene is definitely alive and well in Bathurst, and the Bathurst Brewers should commend themselves on a very good weekend.
> 
> Just a small note, Brian, I'm pretty confident Danny Hannan's first placed RIS was not a kit beer... not unless he was telling a few of us porkies at the presentation night anyway...



He had it listed on his entry form as a kit so that is why it is listed.
The reason we say it is kit or mash was for feed back to our sponsors but it is quite often not even stated so from now on it will not be distinguished.

Cheers

Brian


----------



## gap (15/9/09)

Thanks Brian and Co for a very well run Comp.

I had an email this morning with the results attached.

Great work matho -- you flew the flag for us Blue Mountains Brewers.

Congratulations to all who participated.

Regards

Graeme


----------



## AndrewQLD (15/9/09)

Congratulations to all the placegetters, another well run comp by the Bathurst group, has to be one of the premium competitions in Australia.

Andrew


----------



## hewy (15/9/09)

Woohoo a second place and 2 x HC's. Pretty good considering I entered 4 beers.

Thanks to the Bathurst brewers for organising and thanks to all the judges - looking forward to the feedback.


Cheers
Hewy


----------



## Punter (15/9/09)

Well, after picking myself up off the floor after reading my score for the Dopplebock,
i'm feeling pretty pleased with how it turned out now.
Thanks to all the people involved in the comp for giving your time and effort to make it happen.
Bloody hell Barry, you havn't lost your touch have you. Well done. 
Cant wait for the feedback sheets now to see what improvements can be made.
Well done to all entrants, organisers and helpers.
Good stuff.

Cheers,
Duane.


----------



## gap (15/9/09)

Punter said:


> Well, after picking myself up off the floor after reading my score for the Dopplebock,
> i'm feeling pretty pleased with how it turned out now.
> Thanks to all the people involved in the comp for giving your time and effort to make it happen.
> Bloody hell Barry, you havn't lost your touch have you. Well done.
> ...


Congratulations Duane,

Well done, must have been a great beer.

Regards

Graeme


----------



## BOG (15/9/09)

Lagerman,

what where the prizes and trophies that where handed out?

Anyone with a pic of a trophy..


BOG


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (15/9/09)

So is it legit to have judges judging a category that they have entered beer into?

The reason I am asking is that I am organising the judging for SABSOSA this year.

C&B
TDA


----------



## HarryB (15/9/09)

It seems that it is perfectly legit and also fine to judge your beer the best


----------



## Stagger (15/9/09)

Great work everyone, good to see some excellent beers coming down to Canberra. I am heading up to judge in Qld this weekend hope to see (and taste) some good ones also.


----------



## Stuster (15/9/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> So is it legit to have judges judging a category that they have entered beer into?



I certainly don't think it's ideal and it's not what either judges or entrants would wish for in a perfect world. But with a lot of beers to be judged and a limited number of judges, there are sometimes compromises that need to be made to make sure the beers are all judged by the end of the allotted time. I know I judged a couple of my beers (neither of which did that well  ) and other judges did too. However, the flights were mostly pretty big (20+) and so knowing which beer was yours was difficult. The beers weren't opened in front of the judges and the stewards didn't know whose beer they were either. And finally there were three judges which helps to avoid any bias.

So, if it's possible, try to avoid it. But when a very good judge (who shall remain nameless :lol: ) has entered beers into every single category, what can you do?


----------



## crozdog (15/9/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> So is it legit to have judges judging a category that they have entered beer into?
> 
> The reason I am asking is that I am organising the judging for SABSOSA this year.
> 
> ...


TDA,
The comp was organised as a blind tasting. This particular comp had the most effort I've seen to ensure no-one knew which entry was which or who it might have been made by.

Judges did not even get to see the bottles! They were simply presented with a jug of beer and scoring sheets which were printed with the details of the Category, style & entry number eg 2.3 8 was the 8th entry in category 2 (Pale Lagers) which had to be judged as a Pale Continental Lager. Completed score sheets went to the ladies who did all of the data entry of the scores. Their data entry screens had only the same details as the judging table scoring tally sheet. The collating and reporting of winners was done after all judging was completed and data entered.

In my experience comp organisers try to put judges onto classes / styles which they don't have entries, but when you have good judges that are passionate brewers who submit a lot of entries because they want the feedback as much as everyone else, it can be difficult to avoid. The HCCP comp organising program even has a report matrix you can run that shows you which classes judges preferrably shouldn't judge.

Harry B, review of the results in isolation could lead to such an impression. As far as the judges themselves go all the ones I know (including those who happened to judge their own winning beer) simply judge the beer put in front of them against the criteria specified for that beers style. If it has faults, they will point them out, likewise, if it is good they will mark it that way. No more, no less. Did they know it was their entry? I very much doubt it, they would more likely have been wondering "which was mine?"

The main issue is the number of judges available. As comps are usually run on a voluntary basis, many people simply enter when they could get involved & volunteer to judge / steward. I encourage you all to get involved in a comp as you not only try some nice (OK sometimes not so nice) free beers, but you get to meet some great people who have a common passion as well as learn more and share your knowledge.


----------



## HarryB (15/9/09)

crozdog said:


> Harry B, review of the results in isolation could lead to such an impression. As far as the judges themselves go all the ones I know (including those who happened to judge their own winning beer) simply judge the beer put in front of them against the criteria specified for that beers style. If it has faults, they will point them out, likewise, if it is good they will mark it that way. No more, no less. Did they know it was their entry? I very much doubt it, they would more likely have been wondering "which was mine?"



I completely understand that it's all a blind tasting and that since judging is voluntary , it would be hard to get people who could judge but don't want to be in the comp! My initial comment was very much tounge-in-cheek as indicated by the "  " at the end of it (and it's certainly not sour grapes on my part as I'm very happy with how my beers fared). :icon_cheers: 




Having said that, I would dispute your claim that a taster wouldn't know their own beer - particularly in categories outside pilsner/pale ale etc where the beers tend to be quite distinctive.


----------



## schooey (15/9/09)

HarryB said:


> Having said that, I would dispute your claim that a taster wouldn't know their own beer - particularly in categories outside pilsner/pale ale etc where the beers tend to be quite distinctive.





I judged a flight where one of the judges beers made it into the prize winners. If that judge knew which beer was his, I'm buggered if I picked up on it. 

Another thing Stuster and Croz didn't mention was there was only a 5 point spread allowed between the three judges. This is another mechanism to ensure any anomolies between judges are smoothed out.

Anyway... Along with the comments made by others above, I can assure you that there was definitely no *wink wink nudge nudge* and the beer in question was placed in that position on it's merits. I can also assure everyone that the Bathurst Brewers ran their competition to the highest integrity.

I realise the comment was made tongue in cheek, and I'm not having a dig back... just some re-assurance


----------



## matti (15/9/09)

Fantastic Job everyone and congratulation to all place getters and winners.

matti


----------



## campro (15/9/09)

Awesome, thanks Brian and everyone else invoved in the comp. This keeps getting bigger and better every year.

Bathust is now officially the home of both V8 racing and kick arse homebrew comps :super:

Cheers
Rod


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (16/9/09)

Thanks for the feedback Stuster, Crozdog, Schooey and mikem.

It's something that I would rather avoid in organising judges for the differing categories. 
Luckily this year very few judges have entered beers so with meticulous planning :blink: I have been able to avoid such a problem.

C&B
TDA


----------



## Darren (16/9/09)

This should never happen. If you guys are telling me that I could n't pick my own beer in a flight of 20 beers you are badly mistaken. I reckon I could easily pick any beer i had tasted the day before in a flight of 20.

I understand the conundrum faced by the organisers here, but there is no way a judge should win a class by judging their own beer. That is just crazy.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Stuster (16/9/09)

So what's your solution then, Darren? What should the organiser do? The judge?


----------



## lagerman (16/9/09)

Darren said:


> This should never happen. If you guys are telling me that I could n't pick my own beer in a flight of 20 beers you are badly mistaken. I reckon I could easily pick any beer i had tasted the day before in a flight of 20.
> 
> I understand the conundrum faced by the organisers here, but there is no way a judge should win a class by judging their own beer. That is just crazy.
> 
> ...


 Darren

I have avoided posting in this debate but I can tell you that a judge who can pick his beer in a flight of 20 is new to me. Some specialist beers, yes maybe, but most beers - no way.

Any way who are you cheating - only yourself. 

The simple answer is if we don't have entrants judging beers there WILL BE NO MORE BEER COMP here in Bathurst. These guys travelled up here to Bathurst at their own expense and you don't know how much we appreciate that. That was the main reason to go BJCP to get the extra judges and by 99% of the comments here they had a bloody good time and saw that we run a genuine comp.

Thanks to those of you who were here and saw how it was run and have put the positive comments here on this forum.

Sorry to yell but when someone comes up with a better idea I will be the first to use it.

Darren, I don't know if you have been to a homebrew comp. to see what happens. If you have then you should have learnt how it is all done and if not, instead of being critical on this forum, go to a comp. and see how it is run and that the judges are genuine in their judging of the beers.

End of rant and maybe the end of the Bathurst Comp.

The Bigfella


----------



## Darren (16/9/09)

Big Fella,

Yes been to a few comps over the last 15 or so years.. Never seen a judge pick his own beer as a winner. Actually never seen an entrant of a class judge it before. I for one know I would NOT judge a class i had entered. The solution would have been to have only two judges in the class?

cheers

Darren

(PS: I reckon first prize should be awarded to the second place beer)



lagerman said:


> Darren
> 
> I have avoided posting in this debate but I can tell you that a judge who can pick his beer in a flight of 20 is new to me. Some specialist beers, yes maybe, but most beers - no way.
> 
> ...


----------



## drsmurto (16/9/09)

Since this is a BJCP registered competition i guess the organiser will have read the BJCP information regarding the running of a competition.

This line in particular stands out



> Judges
> 
> * Do not judge in a category you have entered.



So what implication does this have of any beers that have been judged by the brewer and have qualified for the AABC.......

Surely this would make the result null and void?


----------



## petesbrew (16/9/09)

339 entries over a weekend by a handful of judges. A pretty damn good effort that.
If anyone could organise it, in that time, so no judge tasted his own beer, that'd be a bloody huge effort.

"Any way who are you cheating - only yourself." Well said, Lagerman.

Now, back to waiting for the postie delivering my results.


----------



## HarryB (16/9/09)

petesbrew said:


> 339 entries over a weekend by a handful of judges. A pretty damn good effort that.
> If anyone could organise it, in that time, so no judge tasted his own beer, that'd be a bloody huge effort.


Well said. It's a top effort by all concerned. I'm sure the judges are honest enough to keep the judging purely objective.

No complaints and congratulations to the "Big Fella" for a job well done.


----------



## Adamt (16/9/09)

It would be interesting to have a look over the judging sheets of the beers in question.


----------



## glennheinzel (16/9/09)

petesbrew said:


> 339 entries over a weekend by a handful of judges. A pretty damn good effort that.
> If anyone could organise it, in that time, so no judge tasted his own beer, that'd be a bloody huge effort.
> 
> "Any way who are you cheating - only yourself." Well said, Lagerman.
> ...



+1. 

Whilst I can appreciate that the situation isn't ideal, it is hard enough to get judges (especially judges with experience) to run an event. 

I'm comfortable with the integrity of the judging panel for the NSW titles so well done again to everyone involved.


----------



## AndrewQLD (16/9/09)

Rukh said:


> +1.
> 
> Whilst I can appreciate that the situation isn't ideal, it is hard enough to get judges (especially judges with experience) to run an event.
> 
> I'm comfortable with the integrity of the judging panel for the NSW titles so well done again to everyone involved.



Well said.

And I can tell all the knockers, there is nothing more disappointing than being a comp organizer and spending months getting a huge competition set up, organizing sponsors, trophies, stewards, judges, score talliers, venues ect. only to have all your hard done efforts sullied by a few people who can't be bothered to help in the first place. 

This is a sure fire way to lose another well run competition and it's also insulting to Lagerman and the judges and also to all the other organisers.


Andrew


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (16/9/09)

I know how difficult it is to get judges but if it's going to be a BJCP registered competition then surely you should follow the guidelines set out by them. I think Darren's idea of 2 judges per category is sound.

Anyway, I wasn't intending to stir the pot and if the guys who enetred the competition are happy with who judged their beers then thats all that matters.

C&B
TDA


----------



## beachy (16/9/09)

it doesnt really matter how good an effort it was to run the comp or if the judge/s in question is the pope himself the point is that it is a BJCP comp being run as a qualifying comp for the nationals and as such all BJCP rules that all other states have to adhere too should apply here too

the rules are there to protect everyone now and in the future and if they were followed here this debate would not be happening
i am sure this judge/s is totally honest and these beers may well win the national comp too but that does not justify breaking the rules

is everyone going to be happy if the home state brewers judge their own entries at the national comp this year or any other year? especially the people supporting what has been done??

it is interesting to me that the organisers of this comp seem to have some moral problem with publishing all results in case someone that came last gets offended but cant see that people judging their own beer might cause a debate <_< 

the TOO MANY ENTRIES NOT ENOUGH JUDGES line that always comes from NSW as it did last time they hosted the nationals is getting pretty boring and not really a good enough reason to break the rules even if it is only a volunteer run amatuer competition


beachy


----------



## Armstrong (16/9/09)

Some people really suck the fun out of things that should never be taken that seriously!

IT'S A HOME BREW COMP GUYS!!!

Nothing life threatening, no-one's livelyhood on the line ... they are supposed to be a bit of fun!!


----------



## Gulpa (16/9/09)

Assholes! Here we go again. Yet another NSW comp organiser who will likely get pissed off and not run a comp again. 

Bigfella, I really appreciate the fact that you put your hand up to run the NSW State champs as Im sure all other NSW entrants do as well. Im sure you went to a lot of effort to make it happen. Please dont let a few assholes discourage you from doing it again.

Regards,
Andrew.

PS. I entered one of the classes won by the judge and I dont give a fcuk. It will be good to get his feedback on what I can do to make it better next time.


----------



## Tony (16/9/09)

Armstrong said:


> Some people really suck the fun out of things that should never be taken that seriously!
> 
> IT'S A HOME BREW COMP GUYS!!!
> 
> Nothing life threatening, no-one's livelyhood on the line ... they are supposed to be a bit of fun!!



But thats the thing...... people can, will and do take it seriously. 

People put a lot of effort into making beers especially to send off to competitions like this.

I do understand the dificulties of running these large camps with low judge numbers. I have entered plenty of beers in these comps and without looking back, there is a good chance ive been piped at the post on occasion by a brewer/judge competing in the same class.

But rules are rules and where do you draw the line?

Saying "its not to be taken seriously" doesnt work because some will take it seriously. 

Do we make the competition for only people who are not serious about it?

I dont know...... i dont have an answer and im not a judge so i cant help out but rules are rules.

Its a catch 22 of Imperial proportions.

I think its sad because problems like this.... that seem to raise there head every year just drive people away. I know im not in any hurry to enter competition any more because it just seems to be a shit fight afterwards every year. But i cant help out so i wont complain. Im just putting in my 20 cents worth and kegging all my beer 

cheers


----------



## lagerman (16/9/09)

To the supporters I give a BIG thank you and you are in the majority.

To the rest I do not give a toss as I get off my arse and run a good competition and the knockers/stirrers can all get f#*%#ed.

I am happy with what we did but you knockers are enough to want me to give it away. Instead of knocking the comp. have a go yourselves. There are rules but as far as I am concerned if we stuffed it up and the National Competition will not accept the NSW Entries then "tough titties".

I notice most of the dribble is coming from South Australia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have had my say and you can keep going for ever if you like but I am out of here regarding the Bathurst Comp.

I have more important things to do than keep reading this crap.

That's it.

The Bigfella


----------



## beachy (16/9/09)

yes it is just a home brew comp that the majority dont care less about but to some who entered and in this case because it continues on to AABC some of the other people that qualify might care
that is why there are rules and all involved should have the decency and goodwill to apply them not act as if they are above them

if this argument applied to everthing then we could have nathan buckley as one of THREE umpires in this weeks collingwood v geelong game
there would only be a few geelong supporters that care!

or since we are talking about NSW the referee for the next state of origin series could be mal maninga
i dont think may people anywhere else in australia would care about that BUT DOES THAT MAKE IT RIGHT ?


----------



## Jez (16/9/09)

beachy said:


> yes it is just a home brew comp that the majority dont care less about but to some who entered and in this case because it continues on to AABC some of the other people that qualify might care
> that is why there are rules and all involved should have the decency and goodwill to apply them not act as if they are above them
> 
> if this argument applied to everthing then we could have nathan buckley as one of THREE umpires in this weeks collingwood v geelong game
> ...




geez Beachy, hate NSW much?


----------



## beachy (16/9/09)

no jez dont hate NSW at all just think that as a qualifying comp for AABC the same rules should apply to all states
if it was a stand alone comp then it wouldnt matter


----------



## bigfridge (16/9/09)

lagerman said:


> To the rest I do not give a toss as I get off my arse and run a good competition and the knockers/stirrers can all get f#*%#ed.
> 
> I am happy with what we did but you knockers are enough to want me to give it away. Instead of knocking the comp. have a go yourselves. There are rules but as far as I am concerned if we stuffed it up and the National Competition will not accept the NSW Entries then "tough titties".
> 
> I notice most of the dribble is coming from South Australia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Brian,

Yes it is surprising that there could be ANY negative comments here on AHB. It is even more surprising that those that have the loudest voice usually do the least to help out etc. The term 'empty vessels' comes to mind ....

To help educate the miss-informed, the Bathurst cometition was registered with the BJCP. The registration requirements are:

Sanctioned Competition Requirements

1. Blind tasting must be used.
2. Entries must be judged to published styles.
3. Scoresheets must be returned promptly to the entrants.
4. The Sanctioned Competition Handbook and Judge Procedures Manual should be used as a guide.
5. Competition reports must be filed promptly with the BJCP.
6. A judging panel must have a minimum of two judges and a maximum of four judges
7. The BJCP Privacy Policy must be followed

The selective quoting from the Competition Handbook that 'No judge or steward should be assigned to a category they have entered' gives the wrong impression when quoted out of context. The full parragraph is:

"Competition organizers, sponsors, judge directors, registrars, judges, and stewards may enter the competition if they wish. However, all contestants should be made aware that such entries are permitted and that measures have been taken to ensure fair, anonymous, and accurate judging. No judge or steward should be assigned to a category they have entered."

There are two important points:

1. Brian did everything possible to inform people that helpers were needed and that judges are usually competitors as well.

2. 'Should' does not have the same weighting as 'Shall not' or 'must not' but this tends to be a legal distinction.

In the hunter we have a very small judging pool and constantly come across this problem, so we use the approach taken in the USA and in most commercial beer and wine competitions.

Wherever possible we split categories into flights to avoid judges seeing their own beers eg if judges A and B both enter beers we split the category into two judging panels and Judge A is on the panel that evaluates Judge B's beer and Judge B tastes Judge A's beer. We then have a taste off between the two panels where the top 3 beers from each panel are re-judged to pick the best 3 beers for the placegetters.

If panels are split it is essential that a calibration beer is tasted by all judges at the beginnig of the session so that they can adjust their scoring to be closer to the average.


If any entrants feel that thye have been disadvantaged then you have the solution - get off your arse and help with next years comp. No helpers, no comp - simple really.

Dave


----------



## AndrewQLD (16/9/09)

And with that clarification of the BJCP rules and guidelines I think this topic can be closed as there is no further purpose keeping it open.
Thanks for clearing that up Dave.
And thanks again to the Bathurst organizers.

AndrewQLD


----------

