# Anyone else get their credit card scammed today?



## Tropico (3/10/15)

Well, mine did. just wondering about anyone else?


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/10/15)

No money in mine, so they can go there hardest


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## Danscraftbeer (3/10/15)

Tropico said:


> Well, mine did. just wondering about anyone else?


How so? Just interested.
The other day I inserted a card to pay and it read off another card I had. Just from proximity. Swipe and go proximity I don't know the facts!
What I saw could mean that I could possible pay another persons transaction if I happen to be close enough? :huh: Like in queue? That close? :unsure: 
Edit for detail: (I had my wallet in hand while I was inserting (the chosen card), It transacted from another card in my wallet instead)
No big deal for me other than the annoying shock factor of uncontrollability!!!!!


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## Grott (3/10/15)

Yes last Wednesday, got a phone call from credit fraud in Sydney. They got $100 as I had $102 in the account. Advised they were acting out of Japan and had made three attempts on my account. They had purchased a $100 gift card on the Internet from Coles, then tried Bunnings. Fraud guy said they had access a companies customer credit account details and heaps were being stung.
So check your accounts.
Cheers and got my Money back as my credit union pays it and then takes the money when Coles repays me. Top service, but now awaiting a new card.


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## DU99 (3/10/15)

mines ok..how may use the tap system


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/10/15)

I use the tap system all the time. never had an issue


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## Tropico (3/10/15)

Sam's Tyres, South Africa tried to take a payment, this was after some else took a very small amount.

Anyway the bank had picked it up and blocked it, and cancelled the card after I spoke to them.

The card details may have been picked up from malicious software on my computer, or otherwise from some companies on-line payment system being compromised.

Anyway, its all good, no money lost and now, wait for a new card.


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## Danscraftbeer (3/10/15)

Its swipe and go that is the worry. I don't subscribe to such things but the ignorance of the masses goes forth and is the opportunity for crime.
So someone just has to hit you on the head and milk your cards for what they are worth by swiping or proximity?
Actually this is a question I need to ask my bank. -_-


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## Florian (3/10/15)

$100 max, everything above needs a pin.


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## mattlea266 (3/10/15)

Ive seen guys get off the charges too. A lot of cameras arent up to scratch. Crims run store to store buying under 100 until card doesnt work anymore. Police can usually work out who it is but hard to prove in court.


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## Kev R (3/10/15)

Got done once with Mastercard. Westpac rerunded the money. Someone in the states to their credit bank was on to it in less than 12 hours. The strange part was the bank is not allowed to tell you which vendor that the card was comprised?


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## SBOB (3/10/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> So someone just has to hit you on the head and milk your cards for what they are worth by swiping or proximity?
> Actually this is a question I need to ask my bank. -_-


yep, difference is they could always do that...
if you carry cash, its gone for good
if they use your card you are covered by the bank and the bank takes that risk

so, no real change for an opportunistic crook (plus even with out 'tap-and-go'/paywave, almost all terminals except under $100 without pin these days also)


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## SBOB (3/10/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> The other day I inserted a card to pay and it read off another card I had. Just from proximity. Swipe and go proximity I don't know the facts!
> What I saw could mean that I could possible pay another persons transaction if I happen to be close enough? :huh: Like in queue? That close? :unsure:
> Edit for detail: (I had my wallet in hand while I was inserting (the chosen card), It transacted from another card in my wallet instead)


how close was your wallet to the reader? As it should only be a matter of cm's that the paywave terminals range is...(the power required to energise the antenna in the card increases exponentially as distance increases, so you need to be very close for it to work)


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## Barge (3/10/15)

Don't have one, so, no.


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## balconybrewer (3/10/15)

Mine got done yesterday and today, about 4500 worth over 6 transactions to the likes of jb hifi etc. bank said they will refund it all but still frustrating to have to get new cards


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## Danscraftbeer (3/10/15)

SBOB said:


> how close was your wallet to the reader? As it should only be a matter of cm's that the paywave terminals range is...(the power required to energise the antenna in the card increases exponentially as distance increases, so you need to be very close for it to work)


I had my wallet in my left hand leant on the bench when I had the inserted card, - Inserted! with my right hand. Quite trivial really but annoying for me because it was meant to be paid on the business card but got billed to my personal card.
Immediate Solution was to go through the whole cancelation and re-transaction with 10 people waiting impatiently behind me.
First world problems 101.


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## mondestrunken (3/10/15)

Time for some aluminium foil in the wallet methinks


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## Danscraftbeer (3/10/15)

mondestrunken said:


> Time for some aluminium foil in the wallet methinks


Which then makes you,(A NUT JOB!). 
I'm just saying that Swipe and go should be optional on everyones card. Its not!. I did not say yes to this other than its some tedious hidden options somewere in the terms and conditions....and basically if you don't agree with the terms and conditions then you cant have a credit card! 
Insert and key pin should be the only option. In my opinion. Everything too fast for most people/sheeple are so ******* lazy minded they cant remember a 4 digit number and ruin personal control for everyone else.
Who invented this swipe and go crap anyway. Oh yeah its a state of our times because of ridiculously intolerable queuing etc. Just saying - rant... 

Stick your foil hats. -_-
All in good sprit of course.


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## mondestrunken (3/10/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Which then makes you,(A NUT JOB!).
> I'm just saying that Swipe and go should be optional on everyones card. Its not!. I did not say yes to this other than its some tedious hidden options somewere in the terms and conditions....and basically if you don't agree with the terms and conditions then you cant have a credit card!
> Insert and key pin should be the only option. In my opinion. Everything too fast for most people/sheeple are so ******* lazy minded they cant remember a 4 digit number and ruin personal control for everyone else.
> Who invented this swipe and go crap anyway. Oh yeah its a state of our times because of ridiculously intolerable queuing etc. Just saying - rant...
> ...


Dude, I agree.

But at the same time swiping is pretty convenient.


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## Black Devil Dog (3/10/15)

Not yet, but the way I am at the moment it wouldn't take much to roll me, so there's still time.


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## spog (3/10/15)

mondestrunken said:


> Time for some aluminium foil in the wallet methinks


I have mine in a sleeve called a card guard,it protects from " accidental" transactions which has happened before.
I was in a shop as another was swiping her card and it read mine and tried to charge the transaction to my card.
The shop owner realised some thing was wrong ,explained the situation and started over.
As far as scams go we got stung 10 yrs ago on a road trip to Canberra,we re fuelled at Gundagi on the way and the next morning got a call from the bank telling us the card was blocked as some " unusual transactions " had happened and it was out of the norm for our use.
A servo attendant had taken the details of the card used and tried to buy furniture etc from a well known shop in Melbourne.
End result the transactions were declined the person responsible was caught,lost her job and got locked up for a while as she was found to quite prolific at scamming but got too greedy and was caught in a Police sting.....gotta love payback.


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## butisitart (4/10/15)

then there's the microsoft team from manilla wanting to help you fix your computer virus if you'll just send them your bank details.
i've got 2 fixes for this...
firstly, agree, and do lots of ums and ahs while you manouvre to the toilet, then hold the phone over the bowl while you flush toilet. leave phone on cistern and let them blab on. collect phone a few minutes later.
secondly (you need a short perrson for this).... hand phone to 2 year old receptionist and tell her/him that santa claus is on the other end. walk away, remembering to collect phone before little one starts auto-calling your boss etc etc


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## Tex N Oz (4/10/15)

I have a few cards I don't want violated so I crack the chips. Swipe still works fine.


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## goid (4/10/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> I have a few cards I don't want violated so I crack the chips. Swipe still works fine.


The visible chip (looks like a sim card) is not the pay wave/tap and go device. The rfid chip is inbetween the layers of plastic in card. Not visible unless you have one of those partially see through cards.


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## SBOB (4/10/15)

Goid said:


> The visible chip (looks like a sim card) is not the pay wave/tap and go device. The rfid chip is inbetween the layers of plastic in card. Not visible unless you have one of those partially see through cards.


+1 to this

Want to 'increase' the security on your card you should be trying to disable the magnetic strip and not the infinitely more secure chip in the card..
the vast majority of credit card fraud that occurs due to physical access to a card is a result of the ability to clone the magnetic stripe. If the world tomorrow removed the magnetic stripe from every card, card fraud would drop immensely.

If you are trying to disable paywave (pointless imo, but whatever) then you should be trying to cut through the antenna loop within the card


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## Exile (4/10/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Which then makes you,(A NUT JOB!).
> I'm just saying that Swipe and go should be optional on everyones card. Its not!. I did not say yes to this other than its some tedious hidden options somewere in the terms and conditions....and basically if you don't agree with the terms and conditions then you cant have a credit card!
> Insert and key pin should be the only option. In my opinion. Everything too fast for most people/sheeple are so ******* lazy minded they cant remember a 4 digit number and ruin personal control for everyone else.
> Who invented this swipe and go crap anyway. Oh yeah its a state of our times because of ridiculously intolerable queuing etc. Just saying - rant...
> ...



Sounds like you haven't heard you can scan cards with a smartphone.
And they do say that aluminium foil in the wallet does work.


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## Tex N Oz (4/10/15)

Goid said:


> The visible chip (looks like a sim card) is not the pay wave/tap and go device. The rfid chip is inbetween the layers of plastic in card. Not visible unless you have one of those partially see through cards.


HHmmmm!!! It worked a treat on my Westpac credit card but I've not tried the results on my other cards. I'll have to try them today just to make sure!!
Most of the US credit cards don't have the contact microchip so they randomly place the RFID chip. I admit as much as I love tech, I HATE that my finance are a radio-hack away.
I've got a few cards that I never use so I might have to dissect them and see.


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## mwd (4/10/15)

I am old and skint so do not have a Credit Card only Eftpos these days. KMart has had their databases hacked so maybe lots more to come.

Keep getting the Paypal Phishing scam E-mails every few days though my account must be limited 250 times so far this year.


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## mondestrunken (4/10/15)

Exile said:


> Sounds like you haven't heard you can scan cards with a smartphone.
> And they do say that aluminium foil in the wallet does work.


For real?

I mean it as a joke!


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## manticle (4/10/15)

The aluminium foil bearing chip cutters do realise you are covered by the bank for unauthourised transactions? It is a mild pain in the arse to chase up but banks accept responsibility for breaches of their security system and will recover your funds. As for accidental transactions - why are you standing so close to the customer in front with your card out? I've never come across a terminal that sensitive. Most won't even register if I tap the wrong part of the machine (we're talking distances of about 20mm).

If it's a fraudulent transaction welly, you should be able to recover the funds. A while back I had a few hacks on a particular account - always got funds returned. I think it was a retailer I used regularly - either a dishonest customer rep but more lkkely their database was getting hacked with numbers being sold and ised at maltese betting agencies, etc. Retailer changed their system, nothing has occurred since, might be total coincidence.


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## Tex N Oz (4/10/15)

manticle said:


> The aluminium foil bearing chip cutters do realise you are covered by the bank for aunauthourised transactions? It is a mild pain in the arse to chase up but banks accept responsibility for breaches of their security system and will recover your funds. As for accidental transactions - why are you standing so close to the customer in front with your card out? I've never come across a terminal that sensitive. Most won't even tegister if I tap the wrong part of the machine (we're talking distances of about 20mm).


I think for me it's because I only ever check my accounts on a monthly basis and sometimes even longer. With the new mobile stations, it will be a concern in the future as someone with a phone can in fact read your card just about anywhere. 

https://www.commbank.com.au/business/merchant-services/eftpos-options/mobile-payments.html

I agree that technology is getting a bit ahead of itself without putting reasonable security in place.


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## manticle (4/10/15)

Freedom of choice but if I was paranoid (I used to be slightly more so) I wouldn't use a card at all.


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## Tex N Oz (4/10/15)

manticle said:


> Freedom of choice but if I was paranoid (I used to be slightly more so) I wouldn't use a card at all.


Generally I'm just the opposite. Never was one for conspiracy theories or thinking the government was out to get me, etc. etc. 
I do however hate fighting with banks and when it comes to money I like to hedge my odds a bit. haha
I've only ever been ripped off once and that was in San Francisco and to this day have no idea how they pulled it off, but they did. $600 gone but I got it back from the vendor.


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## brzt6060 (4/10/15)

My visa debit card got done a month or so back, didn't notice for a day or two as I was on holidays. Almost 2k in total all on Microsoft something (I'm guessing xbox live but could be wrong). Was a little bit of a pain to deal with as I was in the states but NAB got it sorted pretty quickly. What I did find interesting was I hadn't used that card in along time, a few months at least. I used it at McDonald's around the corner to get food for my sister the night before we flew out, so I'm pretty sure that's where the details got stolen.


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## Mozz (4/10/15)

Tropico said:


> Sam's Tyres, South Africa tried to take a payment, this was after some else took a very small amount.
> 
> Anyway the bank had picked it up and blocked it, and cancelled the card after I spoke to them.
> 
> The card details may have been picked up from malicious software on my computer, or otherwise from some companies on-line payment .


Yep mine was done last week with a South African purchase as well. My mates card was done too. We both did an online purchase through a new brew supplier at around the same time which had us wondering.....? 
Obviously not going to post names because it is pure speculation but if a few other brewers are being scammed recently and have been purchasing online from a different supplier I would like to know.


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## malt and barley blues (4/10/15)

manticle said:


> The aluminium foil bearing chip cutters do realise you are covered by the bank for unauthourised transactions? It is a mild pain in the arse to chase up but banks accept responsibility for breaches of their security system and will recover your funds.


The interesting thing is the banks charge the merchant a percentage for each transaction through the terminal, if a phone order is put through there is a criteria that the owner of the terminal must follow, a phone call to the bank for authorisation if that isn't done then it is the merchant who loses out not the bank, the bank retrieves the money and then returns it, it could take about 8 weeks if I remember right.
But who foots the fraud if it happens at the terminal?


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## pist (4/10/15)

Pre paid credit card for online purchases, and a standard EFTPOS card linked to your account is the go, reduces the risk of having all your money scammed significantly. Sure no card at all would be even better, but in this day and age you can't really get away from cards. If they scam your prepaid card, who cares just order a new one. I've been stung before, right at Christmas time when I needed my card the most. Caught it in time and was able to get my money back, but had no card until after the new year. Massive PITA at that time of year


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## Exile (4/10/15)

mondestrunken said:


> For real?
> 
> I mean it as a joke!


https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Hacker+Demos+Android+App+That+Can+Wirelessly+Steal+And+Use+Credit+Cards%27+Data&oq=Hacker+Demos+Android+App+That+Can+Wirelessly+Steal+And+Use+Credit+Cards%27+Data&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8


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## Tex N Oz (4/10/15)

While it wasn't a RFID rip off, it was slight of hand that got me in SF or so I think.
The missus wanted so souvenirs from one of the little stalls on the boardwalk and we all know a happy wife is a happy life right? 

The whole lot of stuff was like $35 and the guy ran my card and held out the receipt for me to sign. Looked at it and it said $35 sure as shit and signed away. He quickly stuck my copy in my bag and off I went happy days. The next morning I was about to fly out of California back to Texas and noticed a receipt for $600 in the bag. I blew my top and grabbed a cab and he took me back to the shop. Of course the rip off artist wasn't there but the owner of the shop was there. I showed him my receipt and was absolutely ropeable. He looked at it, grabbed his machine and credited me back my $600 and said the souvenirs were on him. He called out to one of the other people working there and said "He's done it again... That's the last time.. When he comes in, send him home right away. He doesn't work here any more." Apologised for his shitty ex-employee and stated this was the 2nd time he's done it in a week and been caught out. apparently they get a 15% commission on all sales and was boosting sales for cash. Apparently on the 15th of October there will be no more signature sales and everything is now paypass or pin. Hard lesson learned for sure.
while I was gone collecting my $600 I was ripped off, the concierge of the hotel we stayed at helped themselves to my Bose QC15 headset.
Moral of the story is in San Francisco, if it's not ******* bolted down, some prick will steal it. Not nearly as bad here in Oz.


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## SBOB (4/10/15)

Exile said:


> https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Hacker+Demos+Android+App+That+Can+Wirelessly+Steal+And+Use+Credit+Cards%27+Data&oq=Hacker+Demos+Android+App+That+Can+Wirelessly+Steal+And+Use+Credit+Cards%27+Data&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8


while its 'technically' possible, in the real world its incredibly difficult and also not very profitable (max is a single one time under $100 transaction and you need to get incredibly close to a card to get the response).. Any skimmed info is only usable once and contains no information usable for future or more useful use (e.g. no card numbers, CVVs, pin numbers etc etc)


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## Vini2ton (4/10/15)

I have tinfoil in my hat and wear a kevlar singlet. Sometimes jocks, but really guys, what used to amaze now frightens.


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## manticle (4/10/15)

I know they can really get you.
I also know they're smarter, better equipped and way ahead technologically so you're pretty much fucked. They've probably got alien dna injectors in all the tinfoil so you're playing right into their hands.

**** it. Live a little, let them enjoy their satan worshipping, alien breeding, batboy rejuvenation programs.
I'll stick with beer cos there's **** all else I can do.


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## Batz (4/10/15)

Best to live life I think. Shit will happen..


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## seamad (4/10/15)

My missus took mine shopping yesterday, does that count ?


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## Tex N Oz (4/10/15)

seamad said:


> My missus took mine shopping yesterday, does that count ?


How did you let that happen??


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## Toper (4/10/15)

Be cyber aware,be cyber safe.Whether it's malware,phishing or physical contact with a card,if the dirtbags can get the info they will.Using a debit card with a limit decreases the chance of a major rip off with online purchases.If people realised the amount of personal info out there on scammer CC sites they'd be more careful.I've profiles in over 50 Fb groups that specialise in CC scamming,they post innocent ppl's CC details daily.All dead cards,but the amount of info with them is enough to start a fake ID for identity theft purposes.Not surprisingly Fb says the pages 'don't violate community standards'.


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## seamad (4/10/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> How did you let that happen??


Small price to pay for putting up with me I'd say.


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## butisitart (5/10/15)

seamad said:


> My missus took mine shopping yesterday, does that count ?


that's just the sort of thing we're all fearful of. card fraud is just a Current Affairs diversion when it comes to the WIFE.
i once gave my then 6 yr old daughter an expired credit card to play with. i had to explain myself about a week later down at the corner store after she tried to check out with about $50 worth of barbie dolls and ice cream. :blink:
and i had to cover her cos she was upset.


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## kaiserben (5/10/15)

I had a couple of strange transactions on Thursday and cancelled my (Mastercard) card straight away. 

The first transaction was for an Australian-based travel package website, for about $750, which was already cancelled/refunded by the time I saw it was there. 

The second transaction was for a German budget airline, for about $250, of which $180 had been refunded back to my account by the time I saw it. 

So I was only $70 down at the time I noticed, it could have been a lot worse, and I assume I'll get that $70 back anyway after the card company sorts it all out.


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## spog (5/10/15)

butisitart said:


> that's just the sort of thing we're all fearful of. card fraud is just a Current Affairs diversion when it comes to the WIFE.
> i once gave my then 6 yr old daughter an expired credit card to play with. i had to explain myself about a week later down at the corner store after she tried to check out with about $50 worth of barbie dolls and ice cream. :blink:
> and i had to cover her cos she was upset.


Jeez these scammers are getting younger and younger.


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## Maheel (5/10/15)

butisitart said:


> that's just the sort of thing we're all fearful of. card fraud is just a Current Affairs diversion when it comes to the WIFE.
> i once gave my then 6 yr old daughter an expired credit card to play with. i had to explain myself about a week later down at the corner store after she tried to check out with about $50 worth of barbie dolls and ice cream. :blink:
> and i had to cover her cos she was upset.


that's gold !!


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## pcmfisher (5/10/15)

I tried swiping by waving my whole wallet over the machine.

Because there was multiple cards in there it didn't read any of them.

It came up with and error something about more than one card.


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## pcmfisher (5/10/15)

SBOB said:


> +1 to this
> 
> Want to 'increase' the security on your card you should be trying to disable the magnetic strip and not the infinitely more secure chip in the card..
> the vast majority of credit card fraud that occurs due to physical access to a card is a result of the ability to clone the magnetic stripe. If the world tomorrow removed the magnetic stripe from every card, card fraud would drop immensely.
> ...


And any physical fraud is eclipsed by being able to buy credit card numbers on the internet.
Most credit card fraud of any significance ie >$100 is done this way.


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## zappa (5/10/15)

The way we exchange money in Australia is going to change significantly in the next 18 months with the incoming New Payments Platform (NPP). It will truly bring payments into the digital age by not only facilitating near realtime transactions between financial institutions, but open the door to payments via mobile devices. Don't be fooled by the "low value" badge though, as the initial spec will allow payments up to $1 below 1 trillion dollars.. My point is, credit card fraud is going to look like a walk in the park!

http://www.apca.com.au/about-payments/future-of-payments/new-payments-platform-phases-1-2


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/10/15)

Some ATM's already have cardless withdraws using you mobile phone


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## zappa (5/10/15)

Yep, one time PIN and whatnot, but it's about to get a hell of a lot easier.


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## butisitart (10/10/15)

when bankcard first came out, it had a 'b' logo, in 3 overlaying colours. everybody from the methodist frugality club to the socialist stained glass artisans guild said this logo was actually 666 and was the work of the devil. plastic cards were controlled by that nameless consortium of 666 people who secretly run the planet from an underground bunker near geneva. for that, most of us sophisticated suburbanites with crystal wind chimes and farmers who regularly get their cows sucked up by aliens, properly and rationally refused to have a bankcard because of this irrefutable fact. even if we weren't methodists or commies ourselves. 
i can't entirely remember the point of this post. i think i'll have another delicious dry irish stout.

.............um...........um.......

oh yeah - so as usual, if we'd listened to our parents (or ourselves if we're that bloody old), then none of this would have happened. some berk with a smart phone in valdisvostok wouldn't being buying vodka on YOUR credit card.
if i can just find my aluminium hat so i can crawl into my little pyramid so i can go to bed


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## wide eyed and legless (10/10/15)

I would reckon that there is more of our own money lost through credit card fraud than we would have lost had these cards had never been invented, Cash is King, we can get discounts for cash, muggings are minimal and what a mugger would get is very little, plus if we were all paid, and dealing in cash we would have a veritable negotiating tool with the banks.
It would be wishful thinking hoping for the plastic cards to be eliminated from our lives.


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## menoetes (10/10/15)

Mine got done two days ago on Wednesday night, over $1200 in two transactions... but the bank caught it and contacted me. They will also be covering the theft and as I keep my credit card for almost exclusively online use I'm not too worried or inconvenienced. It still makes you think though; 'how did they get it?'. There are so many different ways and it's damn hard to try and cover all the bases.

I am surprised to see how often it happens just using the people of this forum as a sample group though...


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## warra48 (10/10/15)

Happened to me just over a week before I was due to fly to Europe last year.

My wife, ever vigilant in checking our banking records online each day, noticed a charge of $250 on one of our cards from the TAB in Ultimo. After convincing her I hadn't developed a sudden gambling addiction, we promptly called our bank and stopped the card. We also reported it to our local cop shop, if only so it goes on their records so they might be able to establish a pattern or series of similar transactions with which to charge the scumbag on the very slight off chance he/she is ever caught. Over the next 2 days, 2 more identical charges appeared.

Ultimately, we were refunded all charges, but I had to arrange an urgent re-issue of my card before I got on the plane. Damned nuisance, as I had enough to do that week.

End result was that the charges were all generated from somewhere in Perth, WA. We still haven't figured out how they got hold of our card details, and how they managed to put a charge on it without our PIN or signature.

Also, about 2 years ago we got a phone call from our bank to check on a suspicious transaction they had picked up on one of our cards for just $5. Wasn't one of ours, but apparently a test charge to see if it was pulled up, before the scumbags have a go for a larger amount. Card cancelled and re-issued.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/10/15)

According to APCA for the financial year 2013-14 over $344 million was the total of the credit card fraud on Australian issued cards,
this is money that we as card holders are covering, and I would be willing to bet that it is only getting worse not better.


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## butisitart (10/10/15)

it ain't all bad..
i got my card swallowed by the bank in spain in the 80s cos i were apparently drunk and couldn't do my own pin number. i went down there the next morning and they had already scissored my card. i were really pissed off, but i had to get a new card from australia. in the meantime (about 2 weeks) i lived on the street cos i literally had zip. then 3 dutch and danish backpacking girls smuggled me into the ymca toledo (which is in a real castle, if you've ever been there). so i had to sleep with them night after night in single bed dorm bed things. i had to take turns cos it were uncomfortable, 2 in a single bunk. i hate credit card fraud.


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## manticle (11/10/15)

Sounds a bit perilous.


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