# Am I Not Understanding Apas Right?



## Effect (3/11/09)

I have read zainasheff and palmers' brewing classic styles and had a look at their apas.

I think I may have a different idea as far as recipe formulation. Here is their recipe from his book

For 19 litres

pale 4.94kg
munich 0.34kg
crystal 0.34 kg

68 degree mash

60 min horizon 19g 35 ibu
10 min columbus 7g 3 ibu
10 min centennial 7g 2 ibu
0 min columbus 14g 0ibu
0 min centennial 14g 0ibu



Now for me, that seems like the correct amount of bitterness, but it seems (for me) quite weak on the flavour and aroma. Especially when he says, the keys to brewing american pale ale are fresh ingredients, a balanced recipe, a fair amount of late hops and a clean fermantation featuring neutral ale yeast.


Here is my apa recipe

4.00 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 90.1 % 
0.22 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.0 % 
0.22 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.0 % 
20.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (60 min) Hops 29.8 IBU 
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (15 min) Hops 7.4 IBU 
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (15 min) Hops 4.8 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [8.00%] (15 min) Hops 4.1 IBU 
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops - 
10.00 gm Cascade [8.00%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops - 
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops - 
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale 



Is my recipe out of whack? too much flavour and aroma additions? too much specialty malts? I just feel like I am having a bit of a hard time understanding this style between reading designing great beers and brewing classic styles.

Any insight would be appreciated
Cheers
Phil


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## Sammus (3/11/09)

I've always thought an APA to just be like the coopers pale of america. Not huge and in your face, but with a good amount of flavour compared to the usual megaswill lagers. I think JZ and JP recipe looks on the money for that, and that much higher hopping schedules are closing to AIPA's and such, or something like yours is perhaps a highly-hoppy APA as opposed to a regular-hoppy APA

edit: figured i'd add the standard disclaimer, this is my take on it, and in the scheme of things have no idea what im talking about


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## bum (3/11/09)

I've been doing a little reading about APAs lately (but from a non-brewing source) and have been noticing talk of regional differences in the style. If memory serves Westcoast APAs are a little more aggressive - perhaps your take on the styles reflects beers from this region?

Could be talking out my name, of course. Happy to be corrected.

At the end of that day though - brew what you want.


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## Dazza_devil (3/11/09)

From the 2008 BJCP Style Guidelines,

*10A. American Pale Ale​Aroma:​*​​​​Usually moderate to strong hop aroma from dry hopping​
or late kettle additions of American hop varieties. A citrusy​hop character is very common, but not required. Low to​moderate maltiness supports the hop presentation, and may​optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character​(bready, toasty, biscuity). Fruity esters vary from moderate to​none. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy​notes, although this character should not be excessive.​*Appearance:​*​​​​Pale golden to deep amber. Moderately large​
white to off-white head with good retention. Generally quite​clear, although dry-hopped versions may be slightly hazy.​*Flavor:​*​​​​Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing​
a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties​may be used). Low to moderately high clean malt character​supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show​small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity).​The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness,​but the malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors​are usually restrained or absent. Fruity esters can be​moderate to none. Moderate to high hop bitterness with a medium​to dry finish. Hop flavor and bitterness often lingers into​the finish. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy​notes, although this character should not be excessive.​*Mouthfeel:​*​​​​Medium-light to medium body. Carbonation​
moderate to high. Overall smooth finish without astringency​often associated with high hopping rates.​*Overall Impression:​*​​​​Refreshing and hoppy, yet with sufficient​
supporting malt.​*History:​*​​​​An American adaptation of English pale ale, reflecting​
indigenous ingredients (hops, malt, yeast, and water). Often​lighter in color, cleaner in fermentation by-products, and​having less caramel flavors than English counterparts.​*Comments:​*​​​​There is some overlap in color between American​
pale ale and American amber ale. The American pale ale will​generally be cleaner, have a less caramelly malt profile, less​body, and often more finishing hops.​*Ingredients:​*​​​​Pale ale malt, typically American two-row.​
American hops, often but not always ones with a citrusy character.​American ale yeast. Water can vary in sulfate content,​but carbonate content should be relatively low. Specialty​grains may add character and complexity, but generally make​up a relatively small portion of the grist. Grains that add malt​flavor and richness, light sweetness, and toasty or bready​notes are often used (along with late hops) to differentiate​brands.​*Vital Statistics:​*OG:​1.045 1.060​IBUs:​30 45​FG:​1.010 1.015​SRM:​5 14​ABV:​4.5 6.2%​*Commercial Examples:​*​​​​Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Stone Pale​
Ale, Great Lakes Burning River Pale Ale, Bear Republic XP​Pale Ale, Anderson Valley Poleeko Gold Pale Ale, Deschutes​Mirror Pond, Full Sail Pale Ale, Three Floyds X-Tra Pale Ale,​Firestone Pale Ale, Left Hand Brewing Jackmans Pale Ale




Hope that helps

Cheers


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## Sammus (3/11/09)

Boagsy said:


> From the 2008 BJCP Style Guidelines,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A link would be much better, thats nearly impossible to read in that styling. But yes, it could be worth checking out the BJCP guidelines (style 10A) to see if that might help clear things up. I suspect, as bum says, that both the recipes you posted are within the guidelines.


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## Bribie G (3/11/09)

APAs are not a classic American Style in the sense that they are about as classic as a Ford Cortina or a BMW Mini Cooper, because that is when they arose as a result of the admirable efforts of Americans who, in their own way were the equivalent of the UK Campaign for Real Ale. In other words they were rebelling against the Budweiser Miller Coors bland shyte that had engulfed the USA since the end of prohibition.

IMHO true classic is CAP brews, and some of the other ale brews based on pre-1930s recipes that try to recapture what American beers might have been like before Prohibition, and aren't afraid to use maize and other CLASSIC American ingredients. Personally I find APAs , American Ambers etc to be somewhat loud-mouthed "Listen here boy I'm going to tell you something and I'm only going to say it to you one Goddam time". If you enjoy this style then fine. However don't confuse them with beers that have centuries of development behind them such as Pilseners, Yorkshire Square Bitters, Dunkels etc. 

Eventually they will be a classic style if people are still drinking them in another fifty years time. Until then, as the OP said, there's not much point in trying to 'understand' them, have a go yourself and see what you come up with as they are still very much a work in progress.


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## Screwtop (3/11/09)

Pretty sure you will find Jamil states that his recipes are a guide or starting place for brewers wanting to brew different styles.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## glaab (3/11/09)

I wouldn't think 42g in the last 10 mins was exactly light on, it's only a 19L batch.


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## Dazza_devil (3/11/09)

Sammus said:


> A link would be much better, thats nearly impossible to read in that styling. But yes, it could be worth checking out the BJCP guidelines (style 10A) to see if that might help clear things up. I suspect, as bum says, that both the recipes you posted are within the guidelines.




Thanks Sammus, sorry about that, I'm about stuffed and couldn't find the link.


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## Effect (4/11/09)

well, I intend on giving both recipies a go so that I can get a better bearing of what an apa is...well, compare what I want from a beer dominated with american hops vs jamil's apa.

Cheers
Phil


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## newguy (4/11/09)

Jamil's recipe is very light on the hops and your recipe is much truer to style. What I mean by that is your recipe looks like it would be very likely to earn a medal in a north american competition; Jamil's probably wouldn't.

A brewer whose beers I really admire clued me into the 2/3rds 1/3rd hopping rule for APAs. For a stellar APA, something that will likely earn you a medal, you should split the total recipe IBUs 2/3rds to bittering and 1/3rd to late additions (boil times of roughly 20 min or less). Prior to learning this, I was brewing APAs with hopping schedules very close to Jamil's recipe and I never even got close to earning a medal. Since learning this, I've medalled with every APA I've brewed.

FWIW, Jamil's hopping schedule seems closer to that used for an american amber, which is much lighter on hop flavour/aroma than an APA.


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## Fourstar (4/11/09)

bum said:


> I've been doing a little reading about APAs lately (but from a non-brewing source) and have been noticing talk of regional differences in the style. If memory serves Westcoast APAs are a little more aggressive - perhaps your take on the styles reflects beers from this region?
> Could be talking out my name, of course. Happy to be corrected.
> At the end of that day though - brew what you want.



Yeah, there are regional differences in the style. More-so whats 'to palate' of their region. AFAIK, the westcoast APA's are too in your face for the rest of the country, which is where Jamil is from. I think i heard Jamil rambling on in one of his podcasts about the comps in the midwest thinking they where too full-on. I just can't remember what show.

Its interesting that the hopping of the recipe is not really to Jamils local style. I cannot remember the recipe details but he does have a non caramel recipe in BCS too Phillip. Is the hopping rate more ballsy in that compared to the caramel? I have a feeling it is. I also remember Jamil preferes the non caramel recipe. After i recently brewed an APA without caramel, im starting to concur with him. The caramel detracts slightly from the aggressiveness of the hops. Where as, malty, toasty, breadcrust falvours and aromas seem to work well with an "in your face" hop profile.

Ive also got to try this in an AIPA. In a recent BYO, Vinnie from Russian River was going on about caramel being completly out of place in hop-aggressive beers. I must test his theory. in something higher than the 30 IBU range.



newguy said:


> A brewer whose beers I really admire clued me into the 2/3rds 1/3rd hopping rule for APAs. For a stellar APA, something that will likely earn you a medal, you should split the total recipe IBUs 2/3rds to bittering and 1/3rd to late additions (boil times of roughly 20 min or less).  Prior to learning this, I was brewing APAs with hopping schedules very close to Jamil's recipe and I never even got close to earning a medal. Since learning this, I've medalled with every APA I've brewed.
> FWIW, Jamil's hopping schedule seems closer to that used for an american amber, which is much lighter on hop flavour/aroma than an APA.



This is the process i have been following without even really thinking about it for allot of my hop focused beers. Now its almost a given. I can say it does give a good balance between Bitterness/flavour/aroma. IMO you can never have enough aroma hop, i'd be starting @ 30g minimum for a flameout addition.


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## drsmurto (4/11/09)

Phil

You will be getting a few APAs in the xmas case swap by the looks of things.

My general grist for an APA;

85% ale or pils malt
10% munich or vienna
5% crystal malt (cara-something often split up into 2, sometimes including some pale choc)

When i formulate the hopping for my recipe i always start at flameout and work my way back. That way i am focusing on the flavour and aroma, the bittering addition is just to hit the desired IBU which i generally have in the 35-40 region. 

I agree with Newguy, your hop schedule looks more like what i go with other than the fact yours is obviously adjusted for no-chill. 

I had the last bottle of my B Saaz APA last night and the recipe for that was the single hop challenge on AMB. 2 months later in the bottle, with no dry hopping, the aroma is still quite nice. Reminds me, i need some more B Saaz!

Using the above grist with vienna did something magical in my last APA with home grown chinook hops. One of the best beers i have made. Could have been just how fresh the flowers were......

What did you think of the Lobethal APA? 

Cheers
DrSmurto


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## Bribie G (4/11/09)

Dr Smurto's B-Saaz is a case in point. The only American I have made was an AA and I finished it off with B-Saaz and it was glorious. I've got a full shrink of B-Saaz at the moment and I'm going to do an all B-Saaz pale ale with polenta and US-05. It would be interesting if some Americans could somehow get to taste it and get their opinion.. would they recognise it as an APA or as something different? I'd class it as one of my "Kiwi Gold" series but then that's not a BJCP class..............yet B)


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## MarkBastard (4/11/09)

I get a bit confused with the acronym use with pale ales to be honest.

APA = American Pale Ale or Alpha Pale Ale
IPA = Imperial Pale Ale or India Pale Ale
AIPA = ???


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## glaab (4/11/09)

I don't have a problem with the "moderate to strong hop aroma/ flavour" bit, it's the SRMs that seem off to me with this style. 14 SRM don't seem too "Pale" to me. Other guidelines say 4-11SRM but even 11 is far from pale.


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## Fourstar (4/11/09)

BribieG said:


> I've got a full shrink of B-Saaz at the moment and I'm going to do an all B-Saaz pale ale with polenta and US-05.
> 
> would they recognise it as an APA or as something different? I'd class it as one of my "Kiwi Gold" series but then that's not a BJCP class..............yet B)


Hey Bribie, I'd say its a Modern Day CAP with those hops 



Mark^Bastard said:


> I get a bit confused with the acronym use with pale ales to be honest.
> APA = American Pale Ale or Alpha Pale Ale
> IPA = Imperial Pale Ale or India Pale Ale
> AIPA = ???


Style wise acronym (not a brand name acronym like Alpha Pale Ale)
APA = American Pale Ale
IPA = Indian Pale Ale
AIPA = American Indian Pale Ale (American for the hops basically)
IIPA = Imperial Indian Pale Ale



glaab said:


> I don't have a problem with the "moderate to strong hop aroma/ flavour" bit, it's the SRMs that seem off to me with this style. 14 SRM don't seem too "Pale" to me. Other guidelines say 4-11SRM but even 11 is far from pale.



usually shoot for the lower end of the colour scale. Especially for comps here as the AABC doesn't recognise American Ambers. Keep your colour at Amber or below personally. If you start pushing the copper colour, its a little dark.

If its brewing for personal reasons. Do it how you please!


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## Sammus (4/11/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I get a bit confused with the acronym use with pale ales to be honest.
> 
> APA = American Pale Ale or Alpha Pale Ale
> IPA = Imperial Pale Ale or India Pale Ale
> AIPA = ???



APA = american pale ale (ie the seppo version of a standard ale, aussie pale ale, english bitter, etc)

IPA = pommy hops, a bit bigger and hoppier than the standard pale
AIPA = american india pale ale, yank version of the above

then you add an extra 'I' to pretty much any style (only the last two here) to 'imerpialise' it - ie make it stronger and hop the sh!t out of it lol

at least, that's my understanding of it...


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## newguy (4/11/09)

glaab said:


> I don't have a problem with the "moderate to strong hop aroma/ flavour" bit, it's the SRMs that seem off to me with this style. 14 SRM don't seem too "Pale" to me. Other guidelines say 4-11SRM but even 11 is far from pale.



Originally the pale in pale ale came about because they were much more pale that the de facto standard brown ales, porters and stouts of the day. 14 SRM may seem too dark but colour counts for only 1 point and only if the judge catches it.


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## .DJ. (4/11/09)

glaab said:


> I don't have a problem with the "moderate to strong hop aroma/ flavour" bit, it's the SRMs that seem off to me with this style. 14 SRM don't seem too "Pale" to me. Other guidelines say 4-11SRM but even 11 is far from pale.



I think I read somewhere that the Pale basically refers to it being "Paler" (is that a word??) than a dark ale.

So its either "Dark" or "Pale"...

I'll try and find where I read it...


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## .DJ. (4/11/09)

I know wikipedia isnt that reliable but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_ale#Definition

_



A pale ale has two basic characteristics:

It is an ale, that is, fermented using a top-fermenting yeast. 
It is pale, that is, generally between 8 and 14 degrees SRM in colour. While this colour is not "pale" compared to, say, a golden ale or Pilsener, the pale malts used in making pale ale at its inception gave the beer a far lighter colour than the porters common in England at the time.

Click to expand...

_


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## drsmurto (4/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Hey Bribie, I'd say its a Modern Day CAP with those hops
> 
> 
> Style wise acronym (not a brand name acronym like Alpha Pale Ale)
> ...



India not indian.  

A bit more study required before you sit that BJCP exam......


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## MarkBastard (4/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Style wise acronym (not a brand name acronym like Alpha Pale Ale)
> APA = American Pale Ale
> IPA = Indian Pale Ale
> AIPA = American Indian Pale Ale (American for the hops basically)
> IIPA = Imperial Indian Pale Ale






Sammus said:


> APA = american pale ale (ie the seppo version of a standard ale, aussie pale ale, english bitter, etc)
> IPA = pommy hops, a bit bigger and hoppier than the standard pale
> AIPA = american india pale ale, yank version of the above
> then you add an extra 'I' to pretty much any style (only the last two here) to 'imerpialise' it - ie make it stronger and hop the sh!t out of it lol



so Alpha Pale Ale's don't really exist then?


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## Fourstar (4/11/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> so Alpha Pale Ale's don't really exist then?



Only for Matilda bay! :lol: 

Oh, and 2IPA = IIPA if you where a little confused on that one.


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## MarkBastard (4/11/09)

Alrighty then.

Would you say that Matilda Bay APA is really an IPA or a IIPA?


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## Fourstar (4/11/09)

DrSmurto said:


> India not indian.
> A bit more study required before you sit that BJCP exam......




Ah, whoops! 

Yes, because it was made by Indians!  What was i thinking! I would be an arse up if i coughed up that during the exam.


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## Tim (4/11/09)

.DJ. said:


> I think I read somewhere that the Pale basically refers to it being "Paler" (is that a word??) than a dark ale.
> 
> So its either "Dark" or "Pale"...
> 
> I'll try and find where I read it...




Pale Ale originated from the UK when they started bottle Bitter. Bitter and Pale Ale are basically the same beer. When its on cask its Bitter and when bottled its a Pale Ale. You can get some rather dark looking Pale Ales, and Fuller's describe bottled London Pride and ESB as premium Pale Ales. Garrett Oliver goes into the argument in some detail in the Brewmasters Table.

Also I have found that US brewers use APA and IPA pretty much interchangably, so an AIPA is actually just an APA.


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## HoppingMad (4/11/09)

Was contemplating this very issue (APAs and hops) when I got my Vic Brew judging sheet back saying my APA was not quite to style. 

To make an APA stand out at comp it appears the IBU has to be up there. My beer had all the right characteristics, was clean and fruity but no hop pop that would make an impression with a beer judge, hence it coming middle of the field.

I read the style guidelines, then to make sure I knew what an APA really is I went out on the weekend and bought myself a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that they have in at Purvis Cellars. Was surprised by it. That stuff is like drinking treesap - really resiny and big on hop, but surprisingly balanced. The crystal malt they use still floats through. If the hops had dominated any more over the malt you would have called it an IPA/AIPA. The balance seems to play a key role here, and is the challenge.

The challenge to create an ale that's not so big on hops it will be mistaken as an AIPA, but big enough for the hops to no longer be subtle. Then you've got something that's on style.

I tend to agree with the consensus on Jamil's recipe too - think those APAs are quite soft on hops, but would make a very nice drinking beer all the same. You would want to up your IBU for comps as it's based on impression B) , not session though.

Hopper.


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## kevin_smevin (4/11/09)

If you want to brew it to do well in a comp you really need to add loads of late addition hops. I've entered a few APAs in comps, even scored a second place. I've added up to 180g of hops in the last 20 minutes which gave me all the bitterness i needed and loads of flavour/aroma but the judges said it still wasn't enough (aroma, bitterness was fine). Obviously you dont have to brew like this, you can still do your standard 60min addition for bitterness but make sure you add a bucket load at 10, 5 or flame off. I think you'd need a healthy dose of dry hops as well to impress the judges. In terms on commercial beers, an AIPA like Jamiesons Beast or murrays 2IPA would reflect what the judges are after for an APA in a brew comp. Thats from my experience anyway.


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## Screwtop (4/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Oh, and 2IPA = IIPA if you where a little confused on that one.



so a Double IPA is an Algebraic Pale Ale :lol:


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## Effect (8/11/09)

DrSmurto said:


> What did you think of the Lobethal APA?



I really enjoyed it, but it's not what I want from an APA. I found that it had the bitterness and the flavour of an apa (i.e. it fits the guidelines), but it doesn't have the hop umph that I desire in my hoppy beers, bitterness is one thing, but dominating hop flavour and aroma is something I long for and the Lobethal APA (even how high I rate it) doesn't do it for me. When I read Jamil's recipe, I imediatelly thought of the Lobethal APA...and that is actually part of why I started this thread, as I was a bit confused. Jamil writes this recipe that contradicts my train of thought but is similar to what I expect the Lobethal APA recipe to be - and the lobethal APA has one a silver...

Thanks for all the feedback + thoughts.

Cheers
Phil

PS: Fourstar, the APA with caramal is quite similar in its hopping schedule, except it subs centennial or cascade for colombus...


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## craigd (20/1/10)

I'll pipe in as an East Coast American homebrewer. I think if you entered a contest here in the US you would do better with Jamil's recipe on the east coast or midwest and the hoppier version would do well in most of the west coast comps if they didn't say you were out of style. You definitely have to tweak recipes for regional contests here. Around here that second recipe would be an IPA (an easy going IPA, but an IPA.) 

There are local differences within the regions too but I would assume that's true everywhere. IPAs rule the roost in the West Coast and do reasonably well on the East Coast but I find that here in Florida maltier styles have a good chance at best of show so that's reflected in the judging of the Pale Ales. Malt forward APAs do pretty well here and those hop bomb APAs tend to overtake the malt. I'm no contest guru but just thought I'd pass on some alternative local perspective.


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## osanai (20/1/10)

The great thing about homebrew is you don't have to follow style guidelines. If you're just going to make your beers to the way someone else says they should be you might as well just buy it off the shelf


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## Josh (20/1/10)

newguy said:


> Jamil's recipe is very light on the hops and your recipe is much truer to style. What I mean by that is your recipe looks like it would be very likely to earn a medal in a north american competition; Jamil's probably wouldn't.



FYI - Every recipe in BCS has won a medal.

If you're brewing to win medals, then the trick is to brew the best beer. A recipe can only take you so far.

The following recipe won a bronze in the 2009 NSW Homebrew Comp for APA...

23L
6kg Vienna malt
500g Wheat malt
20g Black malt
mash 67C

20g Magnum 12.5% 60mins
40g EK Goldings 4.8% 20mins
40g Rakau 11.5% 10mins
50g Galaxy 15% cube
20g Magnum 12.5% cube

US05

OG 1.058
FG 1.012
5.8% abv

Not your typical APA recipe but a well made hoppy pale ale.


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## Kai (20/1/10)

Phillip said:


> I have read zainasheff and palmers' brewing classic styles and had a look at their apas.
> 
> I think I may have a different idea as far as recipe formulation. Here is their recipe from his book
> 
> ...



To me that's a great American pale ale recipe. It's simple but effective. I don't think it's too low in late hopping at all, but that doesn't mean you can't double that and still make a great APA.

In regards to competition brewing, I see no reason why you couldn't take out a gong with a recipe like that. APA's don't have to be heavily hopped to be good. For comparison's sake, I had a first place in ANAWBS a few years ago with an APA that had a grand total of 27g of flavour hops. That's over a third less than Jamil's recipe.


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## Batz (20/1/10)

Style smile

Someone makes a nice beer, then a few people copy that beer, then some one comes along (BJCP Style Guidelines for instance) and puts rules and regulations on what they think that style should be. 

Stuff the guidelines I say, but I always have been a non conformist :lol: I brew beer I like not what someone else tells me I should like.

Batz


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## Kai (20/1/10)

Since you mention it, batz, I should also mention that my aforementioned beer also tasted really good.


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## Batz (20/1/10)

Kai said:


> Since you mention it, batz, I should also mention that my aforementioned beer also tasted really good.




And that's what it all about!


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## bconnery (20/1/10)

The thing about APAs, BJCP or not, is that they are a wide and varied style, within certain parameters. 
Yes they are hop driven, but the levels of this will vary. 
Like them hoppy? Bang in those late hops, Hopburst even, whatever you like. 
Prefer some nice specialty malt in with those C hops? Do it. 
Like a good balance between the two, why not?

Regardless of how you feel about style guidelines, here's the description from one of those which I think illustrates the point. 

*Flavor:* Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used). Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent. Fruity esters can be moderate to none. Moderate to high hop bitterness with a medium to dry finish. Hop flavor and bitterness often lingers into the finish. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive.

Now that right there gives a pretty big scope to me even before you start deciding to make a beer that doesn't quite fit these, which is perfectly fine to do. 

The key to any good beer is balance in my book. That doesn't mean one aspect can't hit you in the face, that it can't dominate, just that there should be enough behind it to back it up.


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