# Increasing alc % in cider / general newbie question



## Bunneez (14/3/16)

Hi, so i'm new to beer brewing and i'm about to start my second batch of cider in a 30L fermenter. I have a few questions i'm using actually apples (red apples) and i'll be using brown sugar.

I've read that per half kg of brown sugar will add .9% alc, I want an 8% cider so I would need to add 5kg of brown sugar.

So if i'm adding 5kg of brown sugar how much yeast should I add? 

Also should I fill my 30L tub all the way up or should I fill it a bit less than 30L

thanks


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## TheWiggman (14/3/16)

I'm trusting this isn't flamebait. In a cider it's the sugar in the apples that is typically used to create alcohol. And of course the apples themselves which make it a cider and give it flavour.
How much apple juice are you using to make it? 
What variety of apples? 
And are you trying to make rocket fuel or a tasty apple cider, because if it's the latter I wouldn't be targeting a %ABV and I would select a specific variety of cider apple. 
As for the volume, it's whatever you want it to be. No need to completely fill it.

How did the first batch turn out?


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## Bunneez (14/3/16)

My first batch was using what came with the starter kit which was a syrup which you mixed with water so i'm kind of in the dark with this next batch. 

I was planning on using just apples, royal gala, red delicious and fuji apples (from batlow) and no i don't want rocket fuel obviously lol, was looking to make more of a sweeter cider.

Ok so once I juice my apples, I should measure it using the hydrometer? should I add more sugar if it's a low reading ?

And i'm still wondering how much yeast to add.


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## TheWiggman (14/3/16)

Are you after a nice sweet cider or are you more interested in going through the balls-and-all process? Because if you want to make a decent cider as a new brewer doing it the easy way is the best way. If you are juicing your own apples you will almost certainly end up with a substandard product. 1 pack of Mangrove Jack's cider and a kg of dextrose makes a cider very similar to Castaways and you can sweeten it as you please with the packaged sweetener. If you want to juice some supermarket apples and throw sugar in it, I don't think you'll be happy with the final product and it won't be sweet.

Yeast will depend on how much sugar is in there. 30l of 4% cider and you could get away with 1 pack but two would be better. 5-8% and you'll want 2 packs. And it should be cider yeast, which is different from other yeasts.


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## GABBA110360 (14/3/16)

I've made a few batches of cider from kits.
as Wiggman says the mangrove jack kits are good
ok what I did was
M/J Pear cider kit
1 kilo of dex
3 l of just juice apple juice
a dry emzime pack
don't add any sweetner just the flavour sachel
kit yeast
gives a bottled product just over 7 % abv
left for two months to mature a bit and you wont look for bloody gala apples again
my 2 bob
ken


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## earle (14/3/16)

GABBA110360 said:


> I've made a few batches of cider from kits.
> as Wiggman says the mangrove jack kits are good
> ok what I did was
> M/J Pear cider kit
> ...


Out of interest, what's your reasoning for the dry enzyme? Apple juice and dex is pretty fermentable and seems to finish dry without it.


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## Bunneez (14/3/16)

I dunno I already bought the apples so i'm looking to use them, yes i'm after a sweeter cider


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## manticle (14/3/16)

Someone is making cider from scratch and we're telling him 'bugger that, use a kit?'

@op - the more sugar fermented by the yeast, the higher the abv. However that won't result in sweetness (sugar in apples is very fermentable, fermentability = less sweet) and high abv products need special love so they don't end up tasting like meth.

As for yeast amount - the higher the specific gravity, the more yeast you need. The cooler the ferment, the more yeast you need.
What yeast are you using?
5kg sugar in how many litres? Sugar will result in higher alcohol but very little in the way of flavour so too much might make boozy, dry, watery cider.


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## GABBA110360 (14/3/16)

earle said:


> Out of interest, what's your reasoning for the dry enzyme? Apple juice and dex is pretty fermentable and seems to finish dry without it.


trying to get as dry as possible


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## manticle (14/3/16)

Apple juice on its own will easily get to 1.000, sometimes even lower.


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## Bunneez (14/3/16)

Was going to use Brewing Yeast (that's the name of it) that they sell in Big W but now thinking of buying cider yeast from a brewing shop i know. But I was going to measure the apple juice in the hydrometer than add sugar based of that as Wiggman suggested.


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## Bribie G (14/3/16)

Let's take this back to basics.

The sugar in apples and apple juice will be fermented by the yeast into alcohol and carbon dioxide, and fermented to dryness. If you want a sweet cider you'll have to go way up to over 12% or so until the yeast conks out and the additional sugars are left to give sweetness.

Commercial sweet ciders such as Mercury, Somersby etc are sweet because the fermentation is interrupted at around 5% ABV before the yeast has the chance to eat up all the sugars, the cider is filtered to clear it then pasteurised to kill any remaining yeast cells that got through, and to stabilise the product for bottling or canning.

I've made a fair few ciders from kits and Aldi apple juice and the trick is:

Ferment to dryness.
On serving, add a dash in the glass or jug of Apple Cordial, a good one is Bickford's.

A good way of getting cider yeast is to buy a kit such as Black Rock and use the kit plus your own apples, or apple juice, and save the kit yeast from brew to brew. I used to get about five brews out of one kit yeast.


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## Blind Dog (14/3/16)

if you can find some cooking apples to add to the mix, you'll add some complexity to the cider, but eating apples can make perfectly decent cider, albeit generally somewhat clean, tart and dry. That said, I've not used the varieties you list before

You'll need about 2kg for a litre of juice, depending on variety and method of extraction. Ideally you'd mill and press to extract the juice, but if you do so think carefully about using campden tablets to sanitise the juice before fermenting as the mill and press could be full of bugs, let alone the possibility of bugs on the apples themselves. 

Cider and wine yeasts work well, but are generally pretty attenuative so it'll finish dry. Some ale yeats also work, but it's all down to personal taste. Yeast nutrient is pretty much essential as there's little, particularly nitrogen, in the juice.

Sugar can be added, but won't add any flavour unless you use a specialist sugar. It won't dry it out, just add alcohol. Honey is, IMO, a better but more expensive option if you want to head down that road. You could just use the juice and settle for the ABV that will produce.


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## Bunneez (16/3/16)

Ok so ive juiced the apples, took a reading which was 1.053, added a couple of Campden tablets and now waiting for them to fin doin their thing

My 30L fermeter is filled to 25L, im planning on adding 1.25kg of brown sugar to bump it up to that 8% that im looking for. Also going to add 2 packets of cider yeast (since 8%) 

If i wanted to make it a little bit it sweeter should i add 2kg instead of 1.25kg sugar, would that ruin it? Or would the yeast just eat the extra sugar up.


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## klangers (16/3/16)

The yeast will gobble it up.

If you want to make it sweeter, you can try a few things to kill the yeast before it ferments out fully:


Pasteurise your cider (WARNING - likely to trigger excessive forum responses) by heating the whole lot to 70 degrees and then cooling again.
Filter your cider through a 1 micron filter or smaller (0.5 micron probably better to be sure). You can use a water filter and cartridge from bunnings

Otherwise, add lactose. Lactose is not fermentable so will add sweetness.


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## gap (16/3/16)

Adding more sugar WILL NOT make the finished cider sweeter just more alcoholic.
Please reread the advice from the previous posters.


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## TheWiggman (16/3/16)

Again why do you want it to be 8%?


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## Bunneez (16/3/16)

Why not?


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## TheWiggman (16/3/16)

Because it's harder to make a nice cider at a high %ABV than at a lower %ABV and will not make it sweeter (which is what you say you're after). It'll make a stronger cider and like manticle said, will likely taste like methanol. 
Echoing gap's thoughts.


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## MastersBrewery (16/3/16)

The way vintners do this is when you have reached your required gravity say 1025, add campden tabs (yes again) this will kill off most of your yeast, 12 hrs later add Potassium sorbate this will inhibate the yeasts ability to multiply. Now you have cider with very very little yeast to eat the sugars. Check The Mad Fermentationist he has some really top tips on doing cider, actually he's pretty good with all brewing, particularly when doing weird stuff with yeast.


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## Bribie G (16/3/16)

I'd repeat my suggestion of doing a dry cider then sweeten in the glass with Bickfords. 
Turns out as good as many of the ciders that seem to fill the display cabinets in the bottlos nowadays.


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## Bunneez (16/3/16)

Thanks for the advice


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## manticle (16/3/16)

Keep in mind that 1053 will ferment right down to 1000 or even lower so abv without sugar additions will still be up around 6%.


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## Bribie G (16/3/16)

As my mate found out when he made a batch and ended up in hospital after falling unconscious and inhaling a fair bit of it :unsure:
Shouldn't have smoked all that hootie with it, of course.


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## Blind Dog (16/3/16)

There's still pubs where I grew up (Somerset) that will only serve you more than a 1/2 pint of the local cider if they know you - mind you if they know you, they might not serve you it at all.

If you want a sweeter cider (and it still wont be sweet like the industrial flavoured shit) then pick a low attenuating yeast like WLP 720, or one with a low alcohol tolerance so it dies off before all the sugar has been consumed (can't think of one that'll drop before 9 or 10%, although there might be one). People often use white wine or champagne yeasts, a cider yeast or a neutral ale yeast, but they'll all end up dry as the apple juice is pretty much all fermentable sugars. Malolactic fermentation, which happens naturally but slowly in a lot of traditional ciders, also lessens dryness as malic acid is converted to lactic acid, but I doubt you'll get much of it happening with the juice you have.

The simplest way to sweeten though is to follow Bribie G's suggestion and brew the cider as is and back sweeten as required with fresh apple juice or cordial in the glass or even in the keg if you're kegging (if the keg is cold the yeast will still be working, but very slowly).


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