# Ipa Or English Bitter



## wbosher (27/8/12)

Hi guys,

I've now got two brews under my belt...although I haven't tasted either of them yet so don't know if they were successful or not. First one a Mangrove Jacks Pilsner, and the other a Coopers Lager (with the new DIY kit). I also added some Saaz hops to the lager as I've heard it's a little bland on it's own. I'm going to try to leave them for the summer, or at least spring






Next, I would like to do something quite bitter. I was thinking either an IPA or English Bitter. Was hoping someone could give me some suggestions of some good kits for either, and if they are good straight out of the can or if they need a little tweaking...nothing too complicated though just yet.

Cheers.


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## bum (27/8/12)

English bitter isn't really all that bitter at all. The Coopers English Bitter tin is supposed to be really nice even when done as per instructions. I have used the Coopers IPA kit and can recommend it as the best tin I ever used. I did trick it out with some extras though. Bung in a bunch of late English hops (EKG and/or Styrian would work great) and use some spec malts to liven up the flavour even more.

[EDIT: my typing seems to be getting worse on a daily basis]


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## wbosher (27/8/12)

Thanks bum, just a few more questions...

>Do you think the the Coopers brew enhancer 2 would do the trick?
>About the hops, I've heard the names Amarillo, Chinook, Columbus and Cascade mentioned quite a bit when it comes to this style of beer. Sound ok?
>Also, would you boil, steep or dry hop. Basically what I'm asking is, in your opinion, what would you use the hops for in the IPA?


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## bum (27/8/12)

wbosher said:


> >Do you think the the Coopers brew enhancer 2 would do the trick?


Yep, can't see why not. Better than straight dex or sugar anyway. A little crystal really can liven a kit up though. Consider it.



wbosher said:


> >About the hops, I've heard the names Amarillo and Cascade mentioned quite a bit when it comes to this style of beer. Sound ok?


Yeah, a lot of people seem to really like US hops with this kit. I'm pretty sure the hops used in the tin are Styrian Goldings so I liked how UK hops worked. Horses for courses, naturally.



wbosher said:


> >Also, would you boil, steep or dry hop. Basically what I'm asking is, in your opinion, what would you use the hops for in the IPA?


Me? I'd do all three. But for simplicity's sake, a 15 min addition would work well if using UK hops or a large 5 min addition for US hops. As suggested above, I'd lean towards EKG and Styrian Goldings for this kit but Fuggles works too, IMO.


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## wbosher (27/8/12)

Sweet, my LHBS has Styrian Goldings pellets.  

Need to do a bit of research on how to use them. I've done the teabag style finishing hops, just steep and throw it in, but I don't know too much about the other techniques yet.

Thanks again.


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## bum (27/8/12)

Steeping will work too if that's what you're more comfortable doing at the moment. Adding hops to any kit in any reasonable fashion will pretty much always produce better results.


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## wbosher (28/8/12)

If the IPA is bitter enough and doesn't need anymore bitterness, I might try dry hopping (just chucking into FV after fermentation is complete, right?). This way looks a lot cheaper that the pre-made teabag type. 

Dry hopping is mainly for flavour/aroma rather than bittering?


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## tricache (28/8/12)

My current brewing I'm "sampling" is the Coopers IPA and I am very happy with it! Age does it wonders though, I want to keep it another month and I think it will mellow even more.


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## wbosher (28/8/12)

tricache said:


> My current brewing I'm "sampling" is the Coopers IPA and I am very happy with it! Age does it wonders though, I want to keep it another month and I think it will mellow even more.



Yep, I think I've been swayed in the direction of the Coopers IPA with BE2, and EKG and/or Styrian hops. (thanks bum )

Will probably steep or dry hop, from what I understand Coopers IPA is bitter enough on it's own so really just after the falovour/aroma.

Can't wait, just need to get myself a shitload more bottles. Already got 60 bottles spoken for. It's going to be a great summer.


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## mwd (28/8/12)

Looks like you got the correct hops for an English style IPA. I would not say the Coopers IPA is real bitter but I like hoppy American IPA with loads of hops. Dry hopping gives mostly aroma and a bit of flavour not sure how EKG or Styrians go dry hopping but should be fine.
You can always do this as a tester then adjust if needed on the next batch.

P.S. I have done the Coopers IPA a few times and I reckon it is probably one of the best cans along with the Irish Stout with the Sparkling as a good runner up.


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## bum (28/8/12)

Tropical_Brews said:


> not sure how EKG or Styrians go dry hopping but should be fine.


I know both are traditionally used for dry hoping but I understand plugs are preferred over pellets. Can't see it being a huge issue in a k&b IPA though - not going to be a hugely subtle beer, you know?

wbosher, if I was me I'd want to get a bit more flavour from the hops for this kit and would be steeping or doing a short boil. Dry hopping will work though. Good luck.


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## manticle (28/8/12)

I've dry hopped with both hops (pellets) a few times now and enjoy the characters they give.

1g/L, dry hopped during cold conditioning, 3-5 days. Hops in loose.


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## woodwormm (28/8/12)

I too rate the Coopers IPA as one of the best kits out there. I'll be grabbing a couple cans from Beerbelly this week...

I pretty much always do a small boil for my hop additions ( I struggle using anything other than Galaxy lately - i'm addicted to it) , and if you're going to a LHBS for hops then I'd highly recommend using malt (either liquid or dry) rather than dextrose or brew enhancers.

My favourite recipe so far

1 can IPA
1 can liquid amber malt (or can use light malt - dried or liquid is fine) 
20 - 30 grams of hop pellets (split into 3 even portions) 

make up a 10:1 ratio boil ie 3 litres of water to 300g malt or 5 litres of water to 500g malt - you get the idea

(i don't boil the kits - heard about isohops in them going stupid so i don't just in case) 

once it's boiing I go for 1/3 hops at 20 mins, 1/3 hops at 10mins and 1/3 hops at 0 mins (when you turn the flame off) 

once off the flame i add all the remaining goop (kit and malt) and dump the whole lot into the fermenter with a bag of ice (my version of wort chilling) top it up with cold water, hope for a temp of around 20 celsius and add either Nottingham or Safale US05 and let go at 18 degrees for 2 weeks. good quality yeast is worth buying from the LHBS too  

good luck, I think mini boils are the way to go for flavour.


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## wbosher (29/8/12)

printed forms section said:


> I too rate the Coopers IPA as one of the best kits out there. I'll be grabbing a couple cans from Beerbelly this week...
> 
> I pretty much always do a small boil for my hop additions ( I struggle using anything other than Galaxy lately - i'm addicted to it) , and if you're going to a LHBS for hops then I'd highly recommend using malt (either liquid or dry) rather than dextrose or brew enhancers.
> 
> ...




Wow, that doesn't actually sound too difficult. I might just have to give that a try when I have finished my lager.


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## Wal05 (29/8/12)

printed forms section said:


> I too rate the Coopers IPA as one of the best kits out there. I'll be grabbing a couple cans from Beerbelly this week...
> 
> I pretty much always do a small boil for my hop additions ( I struggle using anything other than Galaxy lately - i'm addicted to it) , and if you're going to a LHBS for hops then I'd highly recommend using malt (either liquid or dry) rather than dextrose or brew enhancers.
> 
> ...



That sounds so good I can almost taste it now. Might just add this one to my list of things to do. :beer:


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## wbosher (4/9/12)

If using the malt, do you not need to add dextrose? According to the Coopers website they recommend:

* 1.7kg can Thomas Coopers IPA 
* 500g Light Dry Malt 
* 300g Dextrose


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## bum (4/9/12)

Remember that they also recommend fermenting at 26C or so...

Yeah, you can replace some of the malt with dextrose like that if you wish to thin out the body some. However, it will also knock back the maltiness which I think is important for the style. YMMV.


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## wbosher (4/9/12)

So maybe 1kg of DME and forget the dextrose? Or is that too much?



EDIT: My LHBS doesn't supply Coopers!!!!! Anyone tried the Mangrove Jacks IPA?


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## woodwormm (4/9/12)

wbosher said:


> So maybe 1kg of DME and forget the dextrose? Or is that too much?
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: My LHBS doesn't supply Coopers!!!!! Anyone tried the Mangrove Jacks IPA?



spot on 1kg of DME and not dextrose... yummy... 

report back on the Mangrove Jacks (give it a go for those of us that havent tried it)

and cannot recommend highly enough, tossing the can yeast and getting a decent one (and ferment at 18-20) if temp control is achievable. 

and further to this.. I find pitching temp to be highly important, i found funky flavours when pitching at 30 then bringing down to 20.. so now i always pitch at ferment temp...


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## wbosher (4/9/12)

It comes in a pouch, not a tin. Could make pouring hot water in there, and getting everything out a little interesting!

http://www.mangrovejacks.com/core.php?psec...es&ccode=AU



> I find pitching temp to be highly important, i found funky flavours when pitching at 30 then bringing down to 20..



Pitching at 30?!  I thought low 20s was the idea temp...at least that's where I try to pitch (in my vast experience :lol: ), and try to keep it there - generally between 18 and 22c..give or take a degree or two.

Anyway...the pouch! Never seen such a thing


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## JakeSm (4/9/12)

yeah i was going to say i havn't seen a tin of Mangrove Jacks IPA before. i would probably try to find the coopers IPA or maybe try the MORGANS IPA Kit, it's nice aswell.


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## woodwormm (4/9/12)

wbosher said:


> Pitching at 30?!  I thought low 20s was the idea temp...at least that's where I try to pitch (in my vast experience :lol: ), and try to keep it there - generally between 18 and 22c..give or take a degree or two.
> 
> Anyway...the pouch! Never seen such a thing



you're spot on - pitch where you need to ferment 

in my earlier days..... before i knew better, would just mix everything up in a saucepan and into the fermenter with room/pipe temperature water.

you'd be amazed at how hot a pot of boiling stuff + 17 litres of room temp water can be! so now i use ice/chilled water to get where i need to be.

i've done a few kits that were packed strange.. a 'half' fresh wort kit from Canada (was a 10 litre goon bag) and a plastic bucket of goop from Countrybrewer... let us know how the pouch works out.


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## Blitzer (6/9/12)

printed forms section said:


> I too rate the Coopers IPA as one of the best kits out there. I'll be grabbing a couple cans from Beerbelly this week...
> 
> I pretty much always do a small boil for my hop additions ( I struggle using anything other than Galaxy lately - i'm addicted to it) , and if you're going to a LHBS for hops then I'd highly recommend using malt (either liquid or dry) rather than dextrose or brew enhancers.
> 
> ...



Quick question around the boil:

You boil 500g malt, and the hops over 1/2 an hour. What type of hops pellets do you use?

Once off the flame you add the goop and more malt. How much is the second set of malt another 500g?

Also do you add any dextrose or just the malt is fine?


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## Chiro (6/9/12)

This fits the bill to what you requested. Makes a great drop has bitterness and nice aroma. Made this one heaps. You can also use cascade and nelson sauvin together. Both are great.

http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guil...ong-vintage-ale


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## woodwormm (6/9/12)

Blitzer said:


> Quick question around the boil:
> 
> You boil 500g malt, and the hops over 1/2 an hour. What type of hops pellets do you use?
> 
> ...



I pretty much always use Galaxy.. but cascade would work with an IPA i reckon.. possbily fuggles? it's all personal hop taste.. 

if you're using 1kg dried malt, and want to do a 5 litre boil, use 500g in the boil then remaining 500g after flame out. or you can use 300g in a 3 litre boil and add 700 after flame out, just try and stick with the 10:1 ratio for boiling (water:malt) 

if using a tin of liquid malt, use the same ratio and just add the rest of the tin after flame out..

I don't use dextrose, just the malt is fine.


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## wbosher (13/9/12)

I got the Coopers IPA online with 1kg DME and 1kg Dextrose. I'm considering doing it the way the the Coopers website recommends for an "Authentic IPA" - http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-g ... hentic-ipa

Ingredients (Only 20 Litres)
1.7kg Thomas Coopers IPA
1kg Coopers Light Dry Malt
500g Sugar or Dextrose

Sounds like it's pretty hoppy on it's own but someone gave me a new packet of *Cascade (NZ)* hops and am wondering if these will work as a late boil for flavour/aroma or even dry hopping? If not I'll just freeze them for another day.


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## slash22000 (13/9/12)

wbosher said:


> Sounds like it's pretty hoppy on it's own but someone gave me a new packet of *Cascade (NZ)* hops and am wondering if these will work as a late boil for flavour/aroma or even dry hopping? If not I'll just freeze them for another day.



They surely will. Late boil or dry hopping will be fine, but why not both, I say?

As a sidenote, an IPA can virtually never be "too hoppy" with any remotely reasonable amount of hops. The IPA style is intended to be an explosion of hoptastic delights. Take a look at the BJCP guidelines for a better idea of what you're trying to achieve.


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## Yob (13/9/12)

wbosher said:


> I got the Coopers IPA online with 1kg DME and 1kg Dextrose. I'm considering doing it the way the the Coopers website recommends for an "Authentic IPA" - http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-g ... hentic-ipa
> 
> Ingredients (Only 20 Litres)
> 1.7kg Thomas Coopers IPA
> ...



that 500g of DEX is out of place if you ask me... Id be dropping it from the recipe. 

Go nutz with the Hops


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## wbosher (13/9/12)

bum said:


> wbosher, if I was me I'd want to get a bit more flavour from the hops for this kit and would be steeping or doing a short boil. Dry hopping will work though. Good luck.



Bum suggested a short boil/steep, so might try that.



iamozziyob said:


> that 500g of DEX is out of place if you ask me... Id be dropping it from the recipe.
> 
> Go nutz with the Hops



According to that awesome spreadsheet floating around these parts, if I take out the dex, the alcohol content lowers quite significantly. Would leaving it there have adverse effects?


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## RobboMC (13/9/12)

I've not done an IPA for a while, but replacing the Light Dry malt with a 1.5 kg can of light malt extract
and boil in your cascade for 10 min would be a great way to brew it up.

Alternatively keep the Cascade for another brew; I enjoy it with a Canadian Blonde kit;
and boost your IPA with Fuggles which may work better with the IPA kit.


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## wbosher (13/9/12)

RobboMC said:


> I've not done an IPA for a while, but replacing the Light Dry malt with a 1.5 kg can of light malt extract
> and boil in your cascade for 10 min would be a great way to brew it up.
> 
> Alternatively keep the Cascade for another brew; I enjoy it with a Canadian Blonde kit;
> and boost your IPA with Fuggles which may work better with the IPA kit.



I've already ordered the LDME and it on it's way, so will just have to use that this time. The hops were given to me only really looking for an excuse to use them. :lol:


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## Yob (13/9/12)

wbosher said:


> According to that awesome spreadsheet floating around these parts, if I take out the dex, the alcohol content lowers quite significantly. Would leaving it there have adverse effects?



Dex tends to thin a beer out, with an IPA you dont really want a thin beer, nice and thick and malt and all up in your face with hops. When playing with kits i noticed a vast improvement when i limited my dex to a max of 300g (or even better.. None at all) IMO dex is a bitch in kit brews, sure you get more alcohol from it but it comes at a high price.

That said I havnt brewed the kit IPA.


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## bum (13/9/12)

wbosher said:


> I've already ordered the LDME and it on it's way, so will just have to use that this time.


I wouldn't stress, the only real difference is water. Not sure why robbo suggests it as an improvement.



iamozziyob said:


> That said I havnt brewed the kit IPA.


I made a fairly chewy version of this tin once (2kg LDME, 300g crystal) and I would definitely sub out for some dex if I were to do the same beer again. I agree that 500g dex to 1kg LDME is a bit out of balance but if the kick is more important than the balance then I think it'll do the job and he'll still see a big difference if this is his first use of LDME.


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## DU99 (13/9/12)

try about 200/250 of dex.


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## Blitzer (13/9/12)

Think I'm going to try:

1 can Coopers IPA
1.5kg Liquid Amber Malt
30 g Galaxy in small boil.

US-05 yeast.

Bottling on the weekend, so will probably try get it fermenting next week. Hoping it goes well and tastes great.


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## wbosher (14/9/12)

bum said:


> I made a fairly chewy version of this tin once (2kg LDME, 300g crystal) and I would definitely sub out for some dex if I were to do the same beer again. I agree that 500g dex to 1kg LDME is a bit out of balance but if the kick is more important than the balance then I think it'll do the job and he'll still see a big difference if this is his first use of LDME.



I'm making the 20L version as opposed to the "Normal" 23L one, so I would think that the lower water contant will thicken it up and balance out the extra dex? 

My thinking is to do it by the book according to the recipe on the Coopers website, and see how it tastes. Once I know how that one goes, then I can play around with it.


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## bum (14/9/12)

Sounds like a plan. Let us know how she travels.


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## Yob (14/9/12)

bum said:


> I made a fairly chewy version of this tin once (2kg LDME, 300g crystal)



out of curiosity, what did you hop it with?


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## bum (14/9/12)

90g of Fuggles. Worked nicely enough but would use EKG and/or Styrian if I went that big with it again.


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## wbosher (14/9/12)

Just put the IPA on, went with the 20L one on the Coopers website with no added hops this time. I was going to rehydrate the yeast but ended up just sprinkling.

First time using DME, shit that stuff is hard to dissolve! Must have spent 10 minute stirring to get rid of the lumps.

Got myself some starsan, I am now converted. Made life SO much easier! Sanitised everything, even the can opener and my hands. :lol: 

I forgot to take an OG reading, but I can live with that.

Sitting nicely at 22c but that will come down a little, now the hard part...waiting...


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## slash22000 (14/9/12)

wbosher said:


> First time using DME, shit that stuff is hard to dissolve! Must have spent 10 minute stirring to get rid of the lumps.


You should use hot water to dissolve DME, not necessarily boiling, but certainly hot. I fridge a few litres of filtered water overnight to offset the heat of the dissolved DME.


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## wbosher (14/9/12)

slash22000 said:


> You should use hot water to dissolve DME, not necessarily boiling, but certainly hot. I fridge a few litres of filtered water overnight to offset the heat of the dissolved DME.



I did. I boiled 2L of water, threw it into the FV then stirred in the DME...for 10 minutes.


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## wbosher (14/9/12)

Just had a look (no I didn't take the lid off) there is a massive amount of foam on top, a good inch or two, it's only been a couple of hours. I've never seen that much before. Is that just a furious fermentation or could it be the starsan?

I'm not worried, just curious.


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## DU99 (14/9/12)

Its the DME


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## mwd (14/9/12)

Actually DME dissolves better in coldish water. Don't ask me why just try it.

I add the DME to cold water in the fermenter before dumping in the hot can of goop no problem with clumping.


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## wbosher (15/9/12)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Actually DME dissolves better in coldish water. Don't ask me why just try it.
> 
> I add the DME to cold water in the fermenter before dumping in the hot can of goop no problem with clumping.



I might try that next time, it was a real PITA.

Looks to have settled down now, I thought it might have been sanstar foam, I've never used it before.


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## wbosher (18/9/12)

Might dry hop some of the Cascade pellets that I've got sitting in the freezer once the fermentation is done. Any ideas as to how much? 

I think I read here somewhere that a general rule of thumb is 1 gram of hops per litre of beer, sound about right? Just throw in 20 grams of pellets into the FV?


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## dammag (18/9/12)

I find that the Coopers DME added at the end of a boil makes hard lumpy "lollies" but with the DME I get from Craftbrewer I can chuck a Kg in 3.5 L of water at the end of the boil and it almost dissolves itself.

Damian.


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## wbosher (1/10/12)

Got it bottled on Saturday, tasted it and it was no where near as strong and bitter as I thought (hoped) it would be. Maybe that will change in time.

Can wait to try it in a few weeks time.


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