# Is There One Single Beer Merchant That Refridgerates Imports?



## Bizier (8/12/10)

Is There One Single Beer Merchant That Refridgerates Imports? 

I am continually upset by the temperatures that merchants and pervayors of 'fine beer' store their ultra-premium stock at. I am not willing to shell over $30 or so for a single if I can see it has been stored between 25-35 degrees, especially if it is hoppy, and was released some time ago. I am sick of being disappointed by badly oxidised beer (not positive long-cellaring oxidation). 

Is there one bottle shop in Australia that maintains refridgeration right through from delivery to sale? 

I mean, these poor beers have it hard enough just getting here. They don't need further brutality.


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## WSC (8/12/10)

Good question. I think your answer is no.

This was a side discussion to the grey imports discussion.

More needs to be done by all in the supply chain to ensure the beer we pay top dollar for reaches us in the best possible condition.


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## .DJ. (8/12/10)

i read somewhere in last few days that the beer and spirit co (brewdog importers) used refridgeratied containers for imports...


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## chadjaja (8/12/10)

In Tuesday's age they said they bring Brew Dog in refrig containers now. If one person does it then its not out of the question others do too.


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## Bizier (8/12/10)

.DJ. said:


> i read somewhere in last few days that the beer and spirit co (brewdog importers) used refridgeratied containers for imports...


 

I would believe it, as those beers seem to get here fresh, and from a place that is none too close.


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## Sammus (8/12/10)

no idea, but I've tried a million different imports from figtree cellars that I havent found anywhere else, and not one of them has ever exhibited characteristics associated to mistreatment.


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## bum (8/12/10)

With the exception of the transport being refrigerated, I don't think it matters in the slightest. Sure, selling beer from a fridge is nice (both Dan's and 1st Choice have some refrigerated imports and Slowbeer has some in the fridge too) if I want to drink it soon but I know damned well that _no-one_ warehouses/stores their beer refrigerated so it is no different to putting it in the fridge when you get home in terms of longterm stability, really.

Again: with the exception of refrigeration during transport.


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## Bizier (8/12/10)

OK, I used to live behind TIGS, and was frequently in Figtree Cellars. They do actually store their beer pretty well. BUT I can personally vouch for having bought a whole case of Coopers 06 Vintage that they had sitting there (purchased dec 08) and it was very badly oxidised. I would suggest that if it had been refridgerated, it would have been marvellous.

I think it does matter if you have an (especially US) IPA that has been stored warm, it turns it into a different, lesser beer.

ED: grammar


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## bum (8/12/10)

Bizier said:


> I think it does matter if you have an (especially US) IPA that has been stored warm, it turns it into a different, lesser beer.


I agree and that isn't what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting that POS refrigeration will do nothing for a beer that has been stored in a hot warehouse/sitting at ambient out the back for months.

I share your trepidation when buying expensive bottled beers. It is a gamble.


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## Fents (8/12/10)

There are some that dont even treat local beer properly let alone imports.


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## eamonnfoley (8/12/10)

I wonder how Weihenstephen is transported? It is always in good, fresh condition. I know bottlos turn over a lot of it, but it must be refrigerated, or coming in via a very direct route.


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## DanRayner (8/12/10)

foles said:


> I wonder how Weihenstephen is transported? It is always in good, fresh condition. I know bottlos turn over a lot of it, but it must be refrigerated, or coming in via a very direct route.



From what I understand Weihenstephaner is not refrigerated in either OS travel nor Australia-wide travel. And for most Australians drinking it, Weihenstephaner has come across the Nullarbor given that its distributor - Phoenix Imports - is located in WA. And these beers come to the shop I work in on the back of large, unrefrigerated trucks.

It, like German Beverage Imports' (a distribution company part of Sydney's Lowenbrau Bierkeller) Franziskaner, have a very high turnover of stock.

I don't think refrigeration makes much difference at all for most well-made beers. Get a well-made beer that is pretty directly shipped with a high turnover of stock and it will be the one to stand out as a great beer regardless of refrigeration.

As an aside: Can beers become oxidised without the presence of oxygen in the bottle? I wouldn't have thought so. Surely it has to be in the bottle to begin with?


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## Bizier (8/12/10)

DanRayner said:


> Can beers become oxidised without the presence of oxygen in the bottle? I wouldn't have thought so. Surely it has to be in the bottle to begin with?


 

I am not a scientist, but to the best of my knowledge many brewers go to to extraordinary lengths to remove as much oxygen as possible from the bottling process, but there is inevitably a very small amout that makes it in, plus there are other components, especially in hoppy beers, that can either cause or increase oxidation once it has set in. 

Scientists feel free to chime in.


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## Kai (8/12/10)

DanRayner said:


> From what I understand Weihenstephaner is not refrigerated in either OS travel nor Australia-wide travel. And for most Australians drinking it, Weihenstephaner has come across the Nullarbor given that its distributor - Phoenix Imports - is located in WA. And these beers come to the shop I work in on the back of large, unrefrigerated trucks.
> 
> It, like German Beverage Imports' (a distribution company part of Sydney's Lowenbrau Bierkeller) Franziskaner, have a very high turnover of stock.
> 
> ...


b
I'd venture that weihenstephaner (that's a hard one to type on an iPhone!) is an extraordinarily well-made beer. And even so, I have drunk a fair few mediocre ones in my lifetime. Almost any beer is not going to be at its peak after traveling across the worl refrigerated, let alone just across Australia. Weihenstephan might do a great job, but the vast majority of craft breweries are not going to have the level of sophistication to match that. I think beer is something meant to be made and drunk as close to home base as possible. 

In a perfect world though, I think I'd see refrigerated transport (from a free and endless energy source) and maybe retail storage at cellar temperature...


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## DanRayner (8/12/10)

Bizier said:


> I am not a scientist, but to the best of my knowledge many brewers go to to extraordinary lengths to remove as much oxygen as possible from the bottling process, but there is inevitably a very small amout that makes it in, plus there are other components, especially in hoppy beers, that can either cause or increase oxidation once it has set in.
> 
> Scientists feel free to chime in.



Hence my comment about well-made beers - ones with minimal oxidation. I know Wicked Elf in NSW go to incredible lengths to minimise oxidation - and get regular assays performed to audit their bottling.

Yeast autolysis can happen with warmer temps and bottle conditioned beers (or beers that have not been pasteurised) - this will give off nasty musty, off-flavours with time. I'm pretty sure the bigger wheat beers like Franziskaner have been pasteurised which will slow the production of off-flavours from their ever-present _Hefe_


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## eamonnfoley (8/12/10)

DanRayner said:


> I don't think refrigeration makes much difference at all for most well-made beers. Get a well-made beer that is pretty directly shipped with a high turnover of stock and it will be the one to stand out as a great beer regardless of refrigeration.



I think its more to do with the high turnover and fast transport. Hasnt been in a hot environment for very long if at all. Probably comes straight off the ship and onto shelves - rather than sitting in a hot warehouse. Leave it a few more months and it will be struggling. I'm in Perth too, so thats probably got something to do with it! 

Major breweries (Weihenstephen are pretty big) have better packaging facilities, which helps a lot.

But its a proven fact beer will age/stale faster when its warmer. Beer is generally better fresh, and near the source. It doesnt travel well.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/12/10)

Every single beer, from every single manufacturer - ages more quickly at higher temperatuers than lower temperatures. Through both oxidation and through non oxidation related aging reactions.

And if you look, you will find that there are in fact, quite a few breweries, who take great care to ensure that their beer is refridgerated from point of manufacture to point of sale... And failing point of sale, as far down the distribution chain as they can manage. I think you might be very surprised.

Every beer will be better if it is stored cool, and any beer which is not going to benefit from an "aging" effect like a barley wine or old ale - should be stored cold. If the beer you are drinking was stored any other way, then its not as fresh, and very likely not as good, as it could be.

Stores dont keep beers unrefridgerated because it doesn't matter, they keep beers unrefridgerated because its cheaper to do so.


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## Bizier (8/12/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> And if you look, you will find that there are in fact, quite a few breweries, who take great care to ensure that their beer is refridgerated from point of manufacture to point of sale... And failing point of sale, as far down the distribution chain as they can manage. I think you might be very surprised.


 

I think I know what you are getting at there. I know that any brewer/y worth their salt is going to be concerned about handling. I am sure that I could get a fresh megabrew any day of the week that has experienced next to no mishandling (regular drinkers are pretty intolerant of changes). 

It just makes it seem more unfair that the best beers receive the worst treatment.


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## brendanos (8/12/10)

DanRayner said:


> As an aside: Can beers become oxidised without the presence of oxygen in the bottle? I wouldn't have thought so. Surely it has to be in the bottle to begin with?



If a beer has had had any oxygen introduced post fermentation then it will be permanently damaged fairly quickly. Even if it is scrubbed of oxygen before packaging or bottle conditioned it will still show oxidative/stale character much quicker than well handled* beer.



edit *I meant handling in the brewery cellar but I do also believe that handling by distributors/stores/consumers is equally paramount!


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## bcp (8/12/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Every single beer, from every single manufacturer - ages more quickly at higher temperatuers than lower temperatures. Through both oxidation and through non oxidation related aging reactions.
> 
> And if you look, you will find that there are in fact, quite a few breweries, who take great care to ensure that their beer is refridgerated from point of manufacture to point of sale... And failing point of sale, as far down the distribution chain as they can manage. I think you might be very surprised.
> 
> ...


That's challenging, because i have to use the fridge i ferment in to store my beer - so every ale that goes into the fermenter brings the back temp up to 18-19. At least it isn't hot.


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## [email protected] (8/12/10)

brendanos said:


> If a beer has had had any oxygen introduced post fermentation then it will be permanently damaged fairly quickly. Even if it is scrubbed of oxygen before packaging or bottle conditioned it will still show oxidative/stale character much quicker than well handled beer.



+1 Oxygen ingress post ferment will always stale quicker.

As for the original question of refridgerating imports I'm sure that there's very limited chance it could ever happen. Unfortunately the courier/postal service responsible for any part of the delivery chain don't value the product as much as the brewer or consumer. If it where do-able then expect the marketeers to be charging you extra for the privilege. The slogan would probably go "Kept cold from tank to table, that will be 5$ extra a 6-pack thankyou..."

Quality after production by any brewery is a concern. I have personal experience with a public venue holding half finished kegs in demountable buildings for 3 weeks between "functions" and then serving them to a public of over 10,000 at a time. The venue had no regard for quality as it would have cost them money.

My 2 cents

Booz


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## Murcluf (8/12/10)

Been wondering something similar in the past especially when you see import just sitting on a shelf or direct sunlight. If brewdog do do to such lenghts to freight beer here in refridgerated containers it's a shame to see there product sit in the sun on the back docks of a local Dans in 35 degrees for a couple of days, only to be dragged inside to be put on the shelf until some punter comes along. 

Unfortunately the theo-capitalist pedlars of mass consumption don't have respect for well crafted products or to give them the care and attention they deserve so the consumer enjoy it as it should be enjoyed.


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## WildaYeast (8/12/10)

I think Thirsty Boy's post hit most of the points I was thinking as I read this thread.

There's a Brew Strong podcast on oxidation, with Charlie Bamforth from UC Davis on as guest. He talks about stale-ing reactions, which predominantly include oxidation, but occur for other reasons as well. Minimising oxygen on packaging is one way to _delay_ these reactions. Heat greatly accelerates these. I forget the factor, but it's significant - perhaps logarithmic.

Jamil also talks in later podcasts about having stored beers cold for 10-years, giving them to the most sophisticated palettes, and having no oxidation detected. So, temp control is significant. There's also one where the talk about warming and cooling, as not a good thing. Light-struck is another factor.

I know Burleigh Brewing has been promoting a limited distribution network, to emphasize fresh -- refrigerated delivery.

As much as I like to sample, I figure any import here is a questionable purchase. I know Ross at CB has been selling some imports, but not sure if he is bringing them in or whether they are refrigerated. I do know that they store all of their stock in the cold rooms.


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## [email protected] (8/12/10)

I know this may seem like BS to some but there are some (believe it or not) issues/concern in trade where chilled beer in a carton returning to ambient temperature, creating condensation in the 6-pack and carton and therefore compromising the structural integrity of the package resulting in a potential safety issue to the consumer.... 

It's a laughable joke.

Booz


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## felten (8/12/10)

almost as laughable as spilling hot maccas coffee on yourself and winning $2.86 million* from the lawsuit


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## WildaYeast (8/12/10)

The Ol said:


> I did actually get a 4-pack from DM a while back only to have it fall apart as I was walking out the door. Was quite amazed, and a bit chagrined, but they gave me a new one and cleaned up the mess. (No, I wasn't pissed, yet) So, I could understand it being a concern, valid or not.


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## ianh (9/12/10)

.DJ. said:


> i read somewhere in last few days that the beer and spirit co (brewdog importers) used refridgeratied containers for imports...



This was in Tuesday's SMH Link


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## DanRayner (9/12/10)

I agree that high temperatures will stale a beer more quickly than lower temperatures but there really are only a few distributors who do actually transport in refrigerated containers. But again at lower temperatures, not cold per se but less than 20degC, this staling occurs at a much slower rate and I wouldn't be surprised if Wildayeast is correct in his suggestion that it is logarithmic. 

Better-made beers with quick delivery and higher turnover will usually be enough to avoid staling.

Beer should never be in direct sunlight on shelves, brown glass can only go so far to stop UV from skunking - I'd never buy them...

Burleigh Brewing was once promoting limited availability but is now available to customers in southern NSW and the ACT through ALM (Australian Liquor Marketers - AKA IGA) who, as far as I am aware, do not have refrigerated stores for beer and I have never received these beers in a refrigerated truck. But that said, I've never experienced a staled beer from them either.

The majors/megabrews (I'm guessing previous posts were referring to CUB and Tooheys) might (*might* I have no evidence one way or another) store their products in refrigerated warehouses but they certainly do not transport/deliver them in refrigerated trucks - kegs are delivered to pubs on the back of open-tray trucks in direct sunlight throughout summer - or at least they are here in Canberra - but I doubt that they see that as "mishandling"

Chilling and warming of packaging or packaging that is flimsy and crap (I'm looking at you Monteith's your beers maybe awesome but the packaging ain't ) really annoys me; I've dived to save beer and subsequently hurt myself for the sake of a case of something like Leffe so many countless times cos of this!


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## Thirsty Boy (9/12/10)

DanRayner said:


> The majors/megabrews (I'm guessing previous posts were referring to CUB and Tooheys) might (*might* I have no evidence one way or another) store their products in refrigerated warehouses but they certainly do not transport/deliver them in refrigerated trucks - kegs are delivered to pubs on the back of open-tray trucks in direct sunlight throughout summer - or at least they are here in Canberra



I at least wasn't referring to the major brewers here in australia - they dont store or deliver in controlled environments at all. But look at the beers... How often do you hear homebrewers and beer geeks lamenting all the preservatives, enzymes, filtering, processing that is required to make beer that you can leave sitting on the loading dock in the heat, without screwing it up in no time flat.

Now look at a beer imported from Germany where they cant add anything to enhance the shelf life... The poor thing has already travelled half way around the world, across the equator and been abused by people who dont know better - I think that the least the poor stuff deserves is to be treated with respect and not sent further down the road to ruin, once its in the hands of people who are supposed to _care_ about beer.

And as for imported craft beer from the states or scotland or whatever... Unless its been brought over in a fridge, its almost certainly already knackered when it gets here, and its definately going to be after a few weeks on the shelf of a beer shop at 20C

Aging happens fast at 20, it happens insanely quickly at higher temps, and it almost _stops_ happening at about beer fridge temperatures....

Sure - a bottle shop cant control what happens to a beer before they get it. But they can try to source beer from people they think treat it better than others, and they can make sure its put into better conditions asap after they get it. If a beer is half stuffed when it hits the bottlo... It would be nice if it went into the fridge and stayed half stuffed till i bought it, instead of finishing off the trip to staleness on the shelves of the shop. I know that costs money... But if i am paying $10 for an imprted beer anyway, i'd rather pay 12 and have it in half decent shape.


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## Benniee (9/12/10)

[quote name='The Ol' Boozeroony' post='716046' date='Dec 8 2010, 09:35 PM']Quality after production by any brewery is a concern. I have personal experience with a public venue holding half finished kegs in demountable buildings for 3 weeks between "functions" and then serving them to a public of over 10,000 at a time. The venue had no regard for quality as it would have cost them money.[/quote]

 Oh dear... Knowing you place of emplyment and thinking of the only "local" venue that has that sort of capacity makes me a little sad.

You guys would be pretty much powerless to stop this sort of practice wouldn't you - even with the potential damage to the brand?

Benniee


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## Weizguy (9/12/10)

Benniee said:


> Oh dear... Knowing you place of emplyment and thinking of the only "local" venue that has that sort of capacity makes me a little sad.
> 
> You guys would be pretty much powerless to stop this sort of practice wouldn't you - even with the potential damage to the brand?
> 
> Benniee


oh, I just worked it out, too. I have tasted beer at that venue and is often a lucky dip.

Aren't you glad now?


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## Muggus (9/12/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> oh, I just worked it out, too. I have tasted beer at that venue and is often a lucky dip.
> 
> Aren't you glad now?


Haha that makes three of us!

Mates of mine how it tastes different up here compared to another venue of similiar size down the road with the same namesake as the aforementioned beverage...


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