# Control Boxes



## rh1an5 (24/4/08)

im interested in teh collection of control boxes peopel have made up to help in their brewing, newguy was kind ebnought to share teh info on his setup, i was wondering if others could
a. post a pic of your controler
b. list its functions - does it just heat, does it also controller pumps etc etc
c. parts used to construct

much appreciate any info.

cheers
rhian


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## pokolbinguy (24/4/08)

Great thread... I'm eager to see the responses you get


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## rh1an5 (25/4/08)

come on guys, im dying to see some of the electrical wonders you have created, last night i stumbled across a guy who has a PC program , from Germany i think, that even controls his gas burners!!

and i did see a topic soemwher on using a pc to monitor temps, but for the life of me cant find it now, cant search on 2 letter words


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## dicko (25/4/08)

rh1an5 said:


> come on guys, im dying to see some of the electrical wonders you have created, last night i stumbled across a guy who has a PC program , from Germany i think, that even controls his gas burners!!
> 
> and i did see a topic soemwher on using a pc to monitor temps, but for the life of me cant find it now, cant search on 2 letter words



Hi,

I cant help you but I do remember that there was a guy over on the Grumpy's forum three or four years ago that had a pc running parts of his brewery. If I reacall his name was Greg Lehey or similar. His handle was "Groggy" I think.
I have not seen him on any recent forums or at least on the ones that I read anyway.

Good Luck


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## Sammus (25/4/08)

Theres some nice pics of Zwickels setup Here on page 1. Also some of another members amazing work (jonothan maybe?) and a link which has some good info. There was another one too about a build of some sort that was also a good read with lots of pics but I cant find it. Here is another link to ArnieW's page which has a few auto brew machines hes made.


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## Tony (25/4/08)

Hi rhian

Here are some pics of mine.

It has 2 temperature controllers. The one on the left controls the temp of the HLT. It switches a 45A solid state relay that is connected to a 3600W element.

The one on the right is hooked up to the outlet temp of the mash tun and switches valves to either run recirculating wort through the Herms coil in the HLT, or bypass it to maintain mash temp.

I have a switch that turnes the march pump on and off

I also have selector switches for the Herms valves to run them in auto (switches on temperature) or manual (switches with the manual switch)

and lights to tell me which Herms valve is on.

I use PT100 temperature probes everywhere as they are acurate and reliable.

I also have a caravan style plug on the side to hook up the power lead. I used to have a lead comming out eith a plug but it was a PITA. This is neater and less likly to get run over. The switch above it is rated to 32 amps and i use that to isolate the element in the HLT.

cheers


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## pokolbinguy (25/4/08)

Tony how do you have that wired into the mains of the house? Do you have a dedicated circuit from the main house board?


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## dicko (25/4/08)

wally said:


> Dicko, here's a link to Greg's web page. His system controls his fridge, not his brewery. His software might be able to be adapted to brewery control, but that's out of my league.
> 
> link:-
> 
> Wally



Cheers for that Wally, I knew it involved computers and beer in some way  
There are plenty of links here now to help with the enquiry.


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## Tony (25/4/08)

Na i just hook it up to the nearest power point with a 2.5mm extention lead.

But im an electrician so that makes it ok. h34r: 

It draws 16 amps running so i wouldnt recomend this if your not sure of your house wiring ect.

I do plan to wire in a dedicated 15 amp outlet for brewing and water purification services but i dont have time. There is beer to be brewed  

cheers


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## schooey (25/4/08)

Tony said:


> ...and water purification services ...



:huh:




h34r:


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## Tony (25/4/08)

h34r:


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## pokolbinguy (25/4/08)

Tony said:


> Na i just hook it up to the nearest power point with a 2.5mm extention lead.
> 
> But im an electrician so that makes it ok. h34r:
> 
> ...



Ok cool.

I am planning to get a electrician mate to check everything out before I go plugging all my gear in anyway just in case.

Pok


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## Franko (25/4/08)

Here's the start of my one for the red rocket it has a dedicated 32 AMP circuit wire directly to the house switchboard

Yes Tony it still isnt finished yet waiting for you to make a trip down
:lol: lol

Franko


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## rh1an5 (25/4/08)

so something like this

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/USB-Relay-Card_W0QQ...idZp1638Q2em123

could possibly be used to control stuff? similar to teh card Zwickel mentioned he used, only this one is usb

one of my mates is a software engineer and is keen to make some software up, as long as i can provide a collection of hardware for him to interface with. this card would seem like a good step in the right direction


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/4/08)

Tony is lucky..

He has one of these in his back yard to power his rig...


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## schooey (25/4/08)

This is the control panel for my rig in construction at the moment. Has two main circuits;

PID controlled Element to control the water temp in the HLT. Basically just a 3600W element (was going to use a 2400W, but decided to 'Beef up my triuck' a bit). Runs through a 40A Omron SSR and can be isolated by a 25A Hager contactor and a two postion panel switch.

The other is the HERMS system which consists of two PID controlled Granzow solenoid valves that are switched through an Omron changeover relay, again the system can be isolated back to manual bypass with a two position panel switch.

There are indicator lights for the heat/bypass function and also one so I know when the element is on or off and the whole thing is protected by a Clipsal 2 pole combined MCB/RCD circuit breaker and will run off a dedicated 20A circuit installed in my garage.

I bought most of the bits and pieces off Ebay and all up it's probably cost me $500


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## Tony (25/4/08)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Tony is lucky..
> 
> He has one of these in his back yard to power his rig...




3 of them actually mate


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## Zwickel (25/4/08)

rh1an5 said:


> so something like this
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/USB-Relay-Card_W0QQ...idZp1638Q2em123
> 
> ...



Hi mate,

yes, you can use such an USB card, but it would be far cheaper if youd build one for the parallel port by yourself.

Youd need only one relais and one Darlington transistor for each channel, up to 8 channels.


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## bugwan (5/5/08)

Hi guys, just wondering where the best would be to find a control box like those pictured above? I presume you sparkies have got it sorted, but where should the rest of us go? As always, I'm keen for a bargain...!
Cheers
Dave


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## Jono_w (5/5/08)

bugwan said:


> Hi guys, just wondering where the best would be to find a control box like those pictured above? I presume you sparkies have got it sorted, but where should the rest of us go? As always, I'm keen for a bargain...!
> Cheers
> Dave



I would start at your local Electrical Wholesale outlet, ask for a soiled stock or wrong order or the like, before I was a sparkie I used to have some luck as they sometimes had old stock or boxes with bits missing.. Plastic enclosures are fairly well priced.
Also sometimes Ebay.


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## brettprevans (5/5/08)

looks like a power sub station! maybe speak with the blokes knocking off all the copper coil!

seriously it would be an interesting 'side-business' to mack contreol boxes and sell them off to AHB members.


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## Jono_w (5/5/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> looks like a power sub station! maybe speak with the blokes knocking off all the copper coil!
> 
> seriously it would be an interesting 'side-business' to mack contreol boxes and sell them off to AHB members.



I have often thought about this, amongst other things, I don't think it would stay a "side business" for long, could get very involved..  
A nice little box with a HLT and MLT PID controller outlets for each element and temp probe and a pump switch would be quite easy sell i would think. 
Not sure on the regulations though..


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## KGB (5/5/08)

bugwan said:


> Hi guys, just wondering where the best would be to find a control box like those pictured above? I presume you sparkies have got it sorted, but where should the rest of us go? As always, I'm keen for a bargain...!
> Cheers
> Dave





schooey said:


> I bought most of the bits and pieces off Ebay and all up it's probably cost me $500



Otherwise you could try an electrical wholesaler like John R Turk etc


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## ArnieW (5/5/08)

Sammus said:


> Here is another link to ArnieW's page which has a few auto brew machines hes made.


Ahh, interesting thread fellow brew geeks  

I haven't done anything for ages with the site you quoted there Sammus, but I have been blogging here, mainly to keep track of my own thoughts, but also in case it is useful for anyone else. HERMAN continues to be a work in progress - so little time and so many beers to brew  

cheers.


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## ArnieW (5/5/08)

Tony said:


> The one on the right is hooked up to the outlet temp of the mash tun and switches valves to either run recirculating wort through the Herms coil in the HLT, or bypass it to maintain mash temp.


Nice work Tony. The neatness of your wiring puts me to shame :huh: 
What valves are you using - are they off the shelf or home-brew?


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## bonj (5/5/08)

Here's mine. Pretty basic, but worked well in its maiden brew on Friday. Mashmaster HLT controller, switched so I can monitor the temp with the elements turned off. Another switch for the pump.


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## alexbrand (5/5/08)

rh1an5 said:


> [...]last night i stumbled across a guy who has a PC program , from Germany i think, that even controls his gas burners!!



That one?








It's very simple. It's an old PC running w2k with an attatched relay board and a Dallas DS18S20 temperature sensor. The PC measures via COM-port the temp in the mash tun and in interaction with the reciepe it turns the gas burner via relayboard on or off. So I easily can fly through the mash steps. The software is self written. Also see Zwickel's setup?.

cheers,

Alex


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## bugwan (7/5/08)

Sorry for the dumb questions guys...some seriously ignorant sparky knowledge here.

Firstly, I'm not going to do any mad wiring myself, but I am interested in learning more... In the image below, what exactly are the pieces I've highlighted with red boxes (Sorry Alex, by the way  ).

I presume the simple ones are just like terminal blocks for joining wires, and some are obviously circuit breakers, SSRs, RCDs etc. I'm just trying to work out the flow of things from power into the box, through the various devices and back again. Are there any wiring diagrams floating around of people's control boxes that anyone would be willing to share?

Cheers
Dave


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## NickB (7/5/08)

Could be well wrong with my limited knowledge, but the middle square looks like SSRs - Solid State Relays. Used to switch power on and off to high aperage devices such as pumps, elements etc.... Correct me if I'm wrong electrically knowledgeable people.... the majority of the others look like they're just conduits to connect cabling...again could be totally wrong!!!

Cheers

Nick (the hopeful, soon to be well informed, (potentially in the very near-future) apprentice Sparky  )


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## Jono_w (7/5/08)

bugwan said:


> Sorry for the dumb questions guys...some seriously ignorant sparky knowledge here.
> 
> Firstly, I'm not going to do any mad wiring myself, but I am interested in learning more... In the image below, what exactly are the pieces I've highlighted with red boxes (Sorry Alex, by the way  ).
> 
> ...



A majority of the items you circled are just teminals. Such as the ones on the door with red wire going in and red wired out the bottom, used to join wires are isolated from each other and mount on a DIN rail...

The rest is best explained by Alexbrand..


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## Zwickel (7/5/08)

bugwan said:


> I'm just trying to work out the flow of things from power into the box, through the various devices and back again. Are there any wiring diagrams floating around of people's control boxes that anyone would be willing to share?


Hi Dave,

Id like to show you my control box circuit diagram, its similar to Alex one:






Ive forgone all the manual switching devices, I trust my computer program entirely  


Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## alexbrand (7/5/08)

bugwan said:


> Firstly, I'm not going to do any mad wiring myself, but I am interested in learning more... In the image below, what exactly are the pieces I've highlighted with red boxes (Sorry Alex, by the way  ).



Hey Dave!

No problem! Actually, I don't have any wiring digram. I just had an idea what the machine should do after wiring...lol... 




To your questions:

1, 2 and 4: This are all terminal blocks. I just put them in groups together to make the circuits visible to me.

3: the black box is the contacting unit for the black switch in the front paneel. It allows to choose between manual and PC controlled gas burner ignition. The grey box next to it is the contacting unit for the emergency switch (mains).

4: the very right thing (blue) just collects the neutral wires within the case, it's a big contact block. left from the blue block is the main fuse.left from the fuse again some terminals

5: the blue one is just a socket for a relay. This relay was not inserted at the moment the picture was taken. It allows me to sound a remote door bell (together with the black above therelay board) and a local mounted buzzer. This is used by the PC programme to alert the brewmaster in case of something.

Feel free to ask more.



Jonathon said:


> A majority of the items you circled are just teminals. Such as the ones on the door with red wire going in and red wired out the bottom, used to join wires are isolated from each other and mount on a DIN rail...



Exactly! 

Alex


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## rh1an5 (7/5/08)

simply wow, some of these are like miniature space stations. im surprised they dont also make eggs, and sms when teh bear is ready to drink

i love the idea of a mini computer, basicly because i can get code written for me, and owing a pc store for the last 5 years i have a lot of left over junk i need to do something with. 

I am still waiting on my 'sample' temp probes to arrive and then will see what else i can get going.

the PID's seem like a great way to do things without teh need for software, does anyone know if teh PID's can also interface with a PC? for temp monitoring and logging etc?

ideally i suppose would be to create a system that does real time monitoring, logging, and temp control, that allows future expansion for controlling ball valves and flow

it would be awesome thought if someone wanted to start making these, im sure most members here would accept teh associated risks

ohh and thanks for teh wiring diagram Zwickel i can sort of understand how the whole pc card thing works a lot better now.


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## bonj (7/5/08)

rh1an5 said:


> i love the idea of a mini computer, basicly because i can get code written for me, and owing a pc store for the last 5 years i have a lot of left over junk i need to do something with.



You're lucky there. I can write the code, but don't have access to the junk <_<

Not that I'd trust junk with my beer. A new mini itx board would be the way to go, imo. But then again, I prefer the hands on approach. I find it therapeutic.


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## bugwan (7/5/08)

Excellent! Thanks very much for the responses guys, especially Alex, Jonathon and Zwickel (thanks to everyone else too of course ) - good to get some info from the guys who know best.

It looks like all my suspicions were confirmed with the numerous terminal blocks being my main query. The whole thing looks a bit daunting, but once you start tracing wires back, things are making sense. The contact block for neutral threw me, but makes a lot of sense when you think about it! Guess I've just got a curious mind. If I stop posting for more than a month though, it's probably because I've badly-wired my own control box and fried myself.

Will continue to be inspired, thanks again gents.

Dave.


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## alexbrand (7/5/08)

rh1an5 said:


> i love the idea of a mini computer, basicly because i can get code written for me, and owing a pc store for the last 5 years i have a lot of left over junk i need to do something with.





Bonj said:


> You're lucky there. I can write the code, but don't have access to the junk <_<



Well, guys, get on soldering the brew machines... 

But don't invent the wheel again. The Software Zwickel uses is called Bierbrauanlage, it is multilingual and released as freeware. It's written by Thomas, a mate of us in/from Brazil. And If someone wants to use mine - it shouldn't be a problem. It's not 100% perfect, yet. But it works.

Download Bierbrauanlage.


Cheers,

Alex


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## rh1an5 (8/5/08)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Switchboard_W0QQite...1QQcmdZViewItem

now thats a control panel


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## Zwickel (8/5/08)

400Amp......  

hmmm...reckoning 3 phases 400V.....scratch my head.....could be 160KW each phase...or at 240V it would be 96KW......could produce a bland climate in your house in winter time :lol:


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## Tony (8/5/08)

Ahhhhhh its only a weeee little one! Ive built panels with $10 000 worth of terminal strip in them alone.

Add PLC's Soft starters, contactors and overloads and it gets very expensive very fast.

Building panels would be a good side buisness for brew geeks but i think there are too many variables between peoples breweries. They are like us.......... individuals, hence why its so rewarding to build your own. You couls dell them but people still need a sparkie to hook them up, and most household "light and powerpoint" sparkies will shit them selves and run at the mere sight of a SSR or Temperature controller.

As for the solenoids i use on my HERMS, they are Stainless Steel, 1/2" solenoids for fluid flow. They were "booked out to a job" a while back at one of my previous places of employment.

h34r: 

I think they were about $400 each.

Raise bogus work order for repair of plant......... book out parts for repair........ close work order. 

So i cant really help you with where to get them..... sorry

cheers


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## pokolbinguy (8/5/08)

Tony said:


> I think they were about $400 each.
> 
> Raise bogus work order for repair of plant......... book out parts for repair........ close work order.



That made me laugh so hard. Priceless!!!

Pok


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## schooey (8/5/08)

I got my two Graznow valves from USA eBay for US$20 ea delivered Newcastle. They're not stainless, but they'll be the only bit of brass in the system. SS one's are as rare as rocking horse shit, and the only ones I could find to handle 80C+ in AUS were brand new, and came in at over $450 each


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## Doogiechap (9/5/08)

And just to add to the variety/ diversity 
This thread has my little beastie 
12 months on I'm still really happy with my choices, will upgrade to SSR's at some point though 
Cheers
Doug


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## pokolbinguy (16/5/08)

For those looking to get their hands on an enclosure for a control box similar to Schooey's (minus all the extras) here is the details of the fellow selling them .he seems pretty keen to help brewers out and is asking $60 for the box, same as this (comes as pictured):







His comments are:
_
This Apliance test station with 16A 10KA combination RCD / MCB protection and clamp metering point
The ones with the red loop are now all sold my remaining stock is otherwise identicle to this picture, these units came from the electrolux dishwasher factory and were used for testing new apliances safely before shipping
The enclosure is of the IP rated type with a rubber seal, If you wanted to use it to build an outdoor distro you would need to cover the hole cut for the breaker, alternativly extend the slot to fit more breakers and It would make a very tidy portable indoor distro for stage lighting etc

It weighs 13.5 KG the dimensions are 500mm x 400mm x 210mm the weight when packaged for postage is 14.5KG and the packaged dimensions are typicaly (in cm as thats what aust post use) 54 x 44 x 24cm
Please use http://www1.auspost.com.au/pac/aus_parcel.asp to calculate postage from Hindmarsh SA 5007

Please email any questions [email protected] . Alternatively I can be contacted by phone on 0419 363 992

The item may be collected from Hindmarsh in Adelaide at no charge, If you want us to package it for freight there will be a $10 handeling fee in addition to any freight costs. This auction is GST inclusive and a tax invoice will be issued on request_

Anyway no harm in letting other brewers in on a good deal.

Cheers, Pok

EDIT: Bulk buy??


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## oldbugman (16/5/08)

pokolbinguy said:


> That made me laugh so hard. Priceless!!!
> 
> Pok


Not as bad as.... go to supplier.. pick up roll of copper.... go to recycler.. leave copper... go to lunch/strippers


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## Tony (16/5/08)

bargain!

the CB, dinrail and ducting is probably worth $60. The box would be worth $150 to $200 new.

SS ones are about $800 that size.

cheers


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## Tony (16/5/08)

:icon_offtopic: 

I used to work in a very low paid job repairing electric motors.

I would fill a bin with the copper windings from rewound motors on night shift.

Empty bin in car boot before leaving at 2 AM

Stop at scrappies on the way to work at 3pm the next arvo.

great bonus when your being paid $8/ hr. some weeks i made more on scrap than in wages.

cheers


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## pokolbinguy (16/5/08)

Tony said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> I used to work in a very low paid job repairing electric motors.
> 
> ...



haha thats awesome. Smart way to earn extra cash. atleast it made up for the crap pay.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/5/08)

Shall not ask about 2" stainless knurled mill rollers.... h34r:


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## schooey (16/5/08)

Tony said:


> bargain!
> 
> the CB, dinrail and ducting is probably worth $60. The box would be worth $150 to $200 new.
> 
> ...



Yeah $150 to $200 to a contractor with a good account. Joe schmo off the street (read schooey) could only manage the lowest price of $35o for a 400 x 300 x 150 enclosure


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## pokolbinguy (16/5/08)

schooey said:


> Yeah $150 to $200 to a contractor with a good account. Joe schmo off the street (read schooey) could only manage the lowest price of $35o for a 400 x 300 x 150 enclosure



Yep they are damn expensive. Thanks again for the heads up on this fello Schooey....finally going to buy one, don't want to put it off too long, he might sell out!!

Pok


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## Tony (16/5/08)

2" dia 316 SS rollers................ mmmmmmmmmm

Large Larox cloth press. This thing had about 50 rollers in it........... 2 meters wide with a 2 inch ss shaft through the middle.

ocasionally they would wear out on the ends where the bearings went and when changed out.......... well they made good grain mills hey 

All the turning down was dome between 10pm and 4am on overtime breakdown callouts.

1 hr to fix plant............ 3 hrs to turn down roller for Stu........... and i wasnt getting paid either in case your wondering.

there was the 10" dia 316ss shaft from the dextrose crystalizer that got replaced. I tried to get some of that into a layth to make a mega "smooth bore" mill but i needed a crane to lift it. so it stayed where it layed. 

I still have 3 blank 2" dia shafts.

cheers


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## schooey (16/5/08)

ermm... would you like to part with one? I just happent to know a bloke with a lathe and a knurling tool B)


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## zedford (22/5/08)

Hi, Thanks to the forum user who posted my details on this forum, 5 ran out the door in short order. Is also good to see a pic of one I sold a while ago put to good use

BTW that was the last of the single versions (originally I had 70) that I had but I have about 30 of the double versions with 2 x RCD and 2 outlet left, one of the outlets is a 120V round pin one

I must admit I managed to lose an afternoon when I should have been working browsing the brewing forum, Interesting stuff.

Also of possible interest to the forum: I have 2 small PLC systems an Allen Bradley Microligix 1000 and a Mitsubishi FX2series unit that could be of interest for control and automation purposes.

I also have 2 Larger Allan Bradley PLC systems an SLC 500 series rack system and more Flexligix IO and processing than I need for my project although this would be better suited to a fully automated brewery, The SLC 500 system is currently racked up with 250KW of heating element control and power distribution gear a touchscreen and quite a bit of analogue IO.

If anyone is interested let me know I dont want a great deal for the small ones. The Flexlogixics stuff will be more expensive but still a tiny fraction of the cost of buying this stuff new in Australia. Some of it was only installed in 2004

Also if anyone's plans get really carried away I have some sanitary stainless pumps both centrifugal and PD and a PD flow meter for sale (see website)but they are on the big side. Also some vacuum pumps, metering pumps and Durco SS chemical plant pumps. Also a stock of stainless 200l drums

I have been buying parts over the past few years for a continuous flow Biodiesel plant that I have 1/2 built. In the process I have amassed some spare gear and sanitary grade stuff thats a bit overkill for the application. Additionally the current feedstock market makes completing the plant commercially unviable at this time, a pity since I am a long way down the track both design and construction wise.

Some items earmarked for the plant that I could find myself needing to sell include some stainless vessels, level and temperature transmitters, a qty of QVF pilot plant glassware including a 6" glass heat exchange. Also a stainless sanitary heat exchange. Its shell and tube construction with 2" and 3" triclover ports to give you some idea of scale.

Anyway I have probably craped on long enough.
I can be reached by email or on 0419 363 992

Regards
Tim


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## browndog (22/5/08)

Tim, prepare for an onslaught.....

cheers

Browndog


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## zedford (22/5/08)

Hi I should add that I also have a large colection of relays, contactors, din mount bases and terminal blocks a fair bit is brand new. Also a box of 32A Single phase plugs, and a large collection of Profibuss io modules, a whole electrolux production line worth(profibuss is the simens distributed IO system one of the dominant PLC systems in europe) 
I do need to mention that I am very very short on time (no wonder when I keep getting distracted by forums like this) So Im not very well placed to answer lots of emails about minor parts all the time.
My factory is in Hindmarsh Adelaide and if locals want to come looking for things they are welcoms but call first and remember my day job keeps me stretched very thin so I sometims have no time to speak with people.

Regards 
Tim


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## pokolbinguy (26/5/08)

My control box arrived last week and finally picked it up from the post office today....and I must say what a score. under $100 shipped this is a steal. I didn't bother to think about the measurments...this thing is huge...bit of overkill I think for what I want but at least it will allow for future additions. 

Anyway thanks Tim for the easy transaction etc and I'm sure there will be plenty of brewers out there buying more of the gear off you.

Cheers, Pok

QUESTION: What is the best way to cut holes in the doors of these puppies? I want to mount my MashMaster HLT controller in the door of this baby and wondering what the easiest way to make a suitable hole would be?

Cheers, Pok


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## schooey (26/5/08)

I cut mine with a 4" grinder fitted with a 1mm thick cut off wheel I had left over from adjusting some stainless vessels. Worked a treat, just be delicate


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## pokolbinguy (26/5/08)

schooey said:


> I cut mine with a 4" grinder fitted with a 1mm thick cut off wheel I had left over from adjusting some stainless vessels. Worked a treat, just be delicate



Cool, shall look into it. Cheers, Pok


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## alexbrand (26/5/08)

I cut the hole for the display with a simple jig saw but I used a new and really good blade. The holes for the switches I drilled with a cone drill. It was a cheap one, but at low speed and some cutting oil it did a good job with my old B&D. Keep an eye on you drill. Working on thicker metal cases brings a hobby-drill easily to its breaking point. Pay attention... 

Alex


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## kirem (26/5/08)

I got one as well. Should tidy up all the dodginess. Happy to have a dedicated RCD for the Brewery now as well.

View attachment 19347


View attachment 19348


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## schooey (26/5/08)

I've created a monster!


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## kirem (26/5/08)

schooey said:


> I've created a monster!



Monster mash....Sorry bad joke.


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## pokolbinguy (26/5/08)

Good to see more brewers jumping at such a good deal.

Now to cut some holes in mine and get my leco mate to do a bundle of wiring for me


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## bugwan (27/5/08)

Sixty bucks each...! Email sent to Tim.
It's been a big month for the Bugwan Brewery - march pump, Monster Mill, now this...! If only the wife knew!

Pok, please keep us informed on your progress if you have time. I love watching an electrical masterpiece come together...! Although I'll get a sparky to do any 240V work, I'm always interested in other set ups.

Cheers,
Dave


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## pokolbinguy (27/5/08)

bugwan said:


> Pok, please keep us informed on your progress if you have time. I love watching an electrical masterpiece come together...! Although I'll get a sparky to do any 240V work, I'm always interested in other set ups.



No prob Dave will keep all posted. Going to get a good mate (Who is a sparky) to come and look at m setup and tell me what I need to buy to wire it all up safely, then once I have the stuff get him to do it for me or check over anything that I might do. Don't want to burn the house down on the maiden brew now do I.

Pok


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## lokpikn (27/5/08)

I sent some money to Tim today for my control box. I wont be using it for a while but it seemed like a good price so i grabbed it. Well now it seems that making my setup more auto mated will come earlier than i thought.

EXCELLENT


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## Fatgodzilla (27/5/08)

lokpikn said:


> I sent some money to Tim today for my control box. I wont be using it for a while but it seemed like a good price so i grabbed it. Well now it seems that making my setup more auto mated will come earlier than i thought.
> 
> EXCELLENT




Can I now say I've just read this whole thread and enjoyed it thoroughly and don't have a bloody clue what it was about. I'm very impressed with the technical and other knowledge some of you blokes have, but fair dinkum, you lost me early. And to think I got excited I got a new thermometer ! Drink on dudes :icon_cheers:


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## zedford (21/6/08)

some pictures of the drums refered to above can be found here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=23533


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## gibbocore (11/8/08)

hey guy's, sorry to exhume an old thread, but i take it massive curcuits with SSR's and the like aren't entireley required, and i'll get away with a few switches for elements and pumps and the like right?


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## pokolbinguy (11/8/08)

gibbocore said:


> hey guy's, sorry to exhume an old thread, but i take it massive curcuits with SSR's and the like aren't entireley required, and i'll get away with a few switches for elements and pumps and the like right?



Not knowing what the heck you mean by _"massive curcuits with SSR's" _my answer would be....no you do not need it.


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## gibbocore (11/8/08)

haha, SSR = solid state relays. 

and

that's good..haha


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## reg (11/8/08)

gibbocore said:


> hey guy's, sorry to exhume an old thread, but i take it massive curcuits with SSR's and the like aren't entireley required, and i'll get away with a few switches for elements and pumps and the like right?


Provided any switches are rated at the appropriate amps.
For continued running of higher ampage stuff eg 2400watt elements, I would suggest running it through a relay of some sort.
This will prolong the life of your switches.


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## Barramundi (11/8/08)

reg said:


> Provided any switches are rated at the appropriate amps.
> For continued running of higher ampage stuff eg 2400watt elements, I would suggest running it through a relay of some sort.
> This will prolong the life of your switches.




and more importantly prolong the life of your temperature controllers which usually arent cheap...


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## LethalCorpse (11/8/08)

reg said:


> Provided any switches are rated at the appropriate amps.
> For continued running of higher ampage stuff eg 2400watt elements, I would suggest running it through a relay of some sort.
> This will prolong the life of your switches.


Doesn't matter which you use so long as they're rated for the load - 10A+ in the case of 2400W elephants. A relay isn't any less likely to fail than a switch is.

It doesn't prolong the life of your temp controllers either. As far as the controller is concerned a relay or a switch is exactly the same. Using a relay with a lower rated switch just increases the degree of complexity and adds potential points of failure.

SSRs will last longer than mechanical relays or switches, but like you said, you can get by without them.


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## reg (11/8/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Doesn't matter which you use so long as they're rated for the load - 10A+ in the case of 2400W elephants. A relay isn't any less likely to fail than a switch is.
> 
> SSRs will last longer than mechanical relays or switches, but like you said, you can get by without them.


I beg to differ about switching a 10 amp load through a 10amp switch.

It is much better and safer over a longer period to switch a relay coil than to switch at the max rating of 10amps and have that continually running through your switch.
This is why it happens in industrial and commercial applications.
You would dramatically reduce the likely hood of failure of your switch if you run your 10 amps through a relay.
But this is only my opinion.


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## LethalCorpse (11/8/08)

Fair enough, that's your opinion. Do you have a reason behind that opinion? A mechanical relay's contacts are the same as a switch's contacts. Different switches have varying cycle ratings, as do different relays, but they're comparable spreads. All other things being equal, there's no reason a 10A relay will last any longer than a 10A switch. There's no reason either of them will fail in the life of most of the other brewery components either.


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## reg (12/8/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Fair enough, that's your opinion. Do you have a reason behind that opinion? A mechanical relay's contacts are the same as a switch's contacts. Different switches have varying cycle ratings, as do different relays, but they're comparable spreads. All other things being equal, there's no reason a 10A relay will last any longer than a 10A switch. There's no reason either of them will fail in the life of most of the other brewery components either.


I suppose when I hear the word switch I think of domestic 10a switches.
You know after installing an IXL tastic in a bathroom and you turn on the heat lamps and the switch makes a noise as it makes contact. 
If it was my brewery I would just feel more comfortable with the bigger loads going through contactors or relays and using your switches to switch the coils.
Also for ease of wiring if you have an enclosure with your switches on the doors then you can wire up through din mouted relays and then only have to bring your switch wires to the door. Say 2 wires instead of 4 or 6 depending upon the switches you use. Makes for neater wiring and easier fault finding if need be later on.

But each to their own, we all have our little idisynch's. :icon_cheers:

Edit: spelling


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## grod5 (12/8/08)

My head hurts, is this still about beer?

daniel


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## Barramundi (12/8/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> It doesn't prolong the life of your temp controllers either.




i have a controller that is only rated to switch 8 amps , the advice ive been given by several qualified industrial electricians is that 8 amps wont last too long switching a 2400w element , hence my reasoning for the comment on controllers and using a relay to protect them ....


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## LethalCorpse (12/8/08)

Dead right, Barramundi, but that doesn't mean that all controllers need output relays to protect them. The same would be true of any controller, switch, microcontroller computer or relay which was controlling a load with greater power requirements (voltage and/or current) than it was rated to supply. In your case, the controller provides the right voltage, but its current rating is only 8A for a load of 10A. Of course you need an output relay. 

Reg, I'm afraid the idiosyncrasies you're referring to are just that - idiosyncratic. Engineers and sparkies don't (or at least shouldn't) design anything to be more complex than it needs to be to adequately meet the requirements. Most of them need some work in not overspecifying the requirements, but anyway... If you've got a 10A switch controlling 400-600W worth of heat lamps and it's arcing excessively, then you need a new switch. A relay would probably also solve the problem, but so what? A 1000A contactor would solve the problem too, but neither the contactor nor the relay is necessary when a new switch will work just as well. The relay's contact behave in exactly the same way as the switch's contacts, are rated to the same load, which is at least 4x the load required. It just means you've got a faulty switch, and you could just as easily have got a faulty relay, though you wouldn't have heard it arcing up in the roof.

Your comment about having to run less wires to the switch has some merit if you're talking about a 20m run, but is cancelled by the added complexity, cost and failure modes if you're talking about a foot to a door. You can get four wires there as easily as two.

As an aside, a contactor is a different beast entirely. It's a special kind of relay designed to suppress the arcs which occur when breaking very high voltage or current, particularly with inductive loads (like transformers or motors). We're talking about much much bigger loads than 2400W elements though. For this application you can pretty much completely deal with arcing by using a switch or relay which is well overrated for the load (15-20A switches are ideal) and even if you have to replace it every few years, you're still spending much less than a contactor.
My own solution will be a microcontroller driving some fat SSRs, but then I've specced my requirements rather higher than most (I did say it's a weakness). Answering gibbocore's question again, yes you can just use switches to control pumps and heater elements. If you're using switches rated to the load (I like the 15A illuminated rockers) you get zero benefit from adding relays as well.


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## reg (12/8/08)

OK you are obviously more experienced at electrical stuff than me.

Insert:Sound of one pulling ones head in


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## gibbocore (12/8/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Answering gibbocore's question again, yes you can just use switches to control pumps and heater elements. If you're using switches rated to the load (I like the 15A illuminated rockers) you get zero benefit from adding relays as well.



wicked, these are the switches i was gonna be rocking (bad pun).

I will however now be running two PID's as opposed to one set point controller, so a couple of SSR's will be in order. I'll still be keeping the curcuits switchable though.

Cheers for the advice!


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## reVoxAHB (12/8/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Dead right, Barramundi, but that doesn't mean that all controllers need output relays to protect them. The same would be true of any controller, switch, microcontroller computer or relay which was controlling a load with greater power requirements (voltage and/or current) than it was rated to supply. In your case, the controller provides the right voltage, but its current rating is only 8A for a load of 10A. Of course you need an output relay.
> 
> Reg, I'm afraid the idiosyncrasies you're referring to are just that - idiosyncratic. Engineers and sparkies don't (or at least shouldn't) design anything to be more complex than it needs to be to adequately meet the requirements. Most of them need some work in not overspecifying the requirements, but anyway... If you've got a 10A switch controlling 400-600W worth of heat lamps and it's arcing excessively, then you need a new switch. A relay would probably also solve the problem, but so what? A 1000A contactor would solve the problem too, but neither the contactor nor the relay is necessary when a new switch will work just as well. The relay's contact behave in exactly the same way as the switch's contacts, are rated to the same load, which is at least 4x the load required. It just means you've got a faulty switch, and you could just as easily have got a faulty relay, though you wouldn't have heard it arcing up in the roof.
> 
> ...


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## JSB (12/8/08)

shit its the flux capacitor !!!   

Sorry just had to do it !!

Cheers
JSB


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## LethalCorpse (12/8/08)

heh, check zizzle's brewbot if you want flux capacitor action. My own (if I ever get round to building it rather than talking about it) will be of similar complexity.

BTW guys (this is directed at pok mostly) I got a quote the other day from the stainless shop in Sydney for a 316 camlock pair at $28.


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## zedford (13/8/08)

Hi, Just to let you know I also have a large inventory of new relays and terminal bases, as well as several small plc systems if anyone is interested. I dont have all the small stuff catalogued but bigger items are now at www.blackboxproductions.com.au there are still some of the boxes discussed above available as well as others. As well as various bits of stainless plant.

Regards tim

PS Im keen to see some photos of peoples finished systems.


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## hockadays (7/7/09)

Rather then start a new thread I'll post my completed control box here. It has 2 circuits a 10A one that powers the pump and heat exchanger and the other is 15A that runs the HLT which has a 3.6kw custom element from stokes. I used illuminated switches from Jacar to isolate the different elements and two PIDs from Auberins. The Pid that controls the Heat Xchanger is programable and runs four differents mash schedules. 55-64-70-76, 66-76, 67-76, 55-67-76. All I need to do now is get some lettering for the front of the box and give it a test run once I finish the rest of the brewery.


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## browndog (7/7/09)

Nice work there Hockadays, I reckone even the feared Lethal Corpse would be impressed with that work.

cheers

Browndog


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## beerbrewer76543 (7/7/09)

*whiney voice* Can you make me one?  

Awesome work there!

I forsee a huge surge in Micro breweries in a few years when our brewing obsession finally trows a noose around our necks, drags us down to the bank and forces us to take out a mortgage to fund the new venture...


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## hockadays (7/7/09)

Thanks Guys, the fun is definately in the building.


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