# How to transform good wort into shit beer. Rehydrate pitch dried yeast



## rockeye84 (11/1/16)

Got lazy and didn't make a starter before brewing so used us05, rehydrated & pitched 3 in date packs into well 60l of well oxygenated wort at 18c, has been fermenting @18c since 2nd of Jan.

Over attenuated and tastes like leffe, full of esters and is ******* shit as far as I'm concerned! Was meant to be a mild blonde ale but all I can taste is filthy dirty shitty yeast esters, no malt no hops jus shitty esters!

Rehydrated and used s189 at lager temps a while ago and had the same results. Leffe fucken shit dirty taste!!!! 

Only success I've had with dry yeast when I do what's not recommend and make a starter with it be4 brewing, so ya may as well jus use wyeast.

Lesson learned. All forms of dry yeast can go get fucked! And make a starter before every batch!!


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## Topher (11/1/16)

What about notto. Ya cant **** up notto.


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## rockeye84 (11/1/16)

Have never tried notto. Too scared to touch dried ever again, literally never had a bad experience with wyeast!


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## Topher (11/1/16)

Crazy. Ive had some awesome beers that have been brewed with 05. Commercial ones too....but in those cases its likely to be a repitch.


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## rockeye84 (11/1/16)

I have had a few good with us05 but only when I make make a starter with it. Rehydrate or pitch dry. Shithouse!


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## Coodgee (11/1/16)

You'd be in the minority. US05 is a very clean yeast. I've never got any noticable esters from it. Millions of clean beers have been brewed with US05. Maybe describe your process in more detail and we can help. It might be a sanitation issue.


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## Beersuit (11/1/16)

Topher said:


> Crazy. Ive had some awesome beers that have been brewed with 05. Commercial ones too....but in those cases its likely to be a repitch.


Same. Us05 is great rehydrated and fermented at 16 any warmer and your gunna taste it.

If only I could use it to make a leffe clone .


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## kaiserben (11/1/16)

Isn't there a good chance 3 packs of US-05 in 60 L wort is an under-pitch if you're making a Leffe Blonde clone? I daresay you've got about half the cells you need to have an optimal pitch (maybe even less if the packs are quite old). 

For reference I pitched 2 packs of S-33 (rehydrated) in 23L of 1.067 for a Belgian Blonde and it tasted great out of the fermenter (currently still maturing in the bottles, but I've got high hopes).


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## fletcher (11/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Got lazy ...


i think this says a lot. i'd say other issues are afoot. there's nothing wrong with us-05.


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## rockeye84 (11/1/16)

Coodgee said:


> You'd be in the minority. US05 is a very clean yeast. I've never got any noticable esters from it. Millions of clean beers have been brewed with US05. Maybe describe your process in more detail and we can help. It might be a sanitation issue.


Could be, probably done 60-70 batches total, probably 10-15, with dried strains, they pretty much always disappoint, probably had 2 or 3 that have been decent. Try to use liquid strains most of the time, I'm yet to reach this level of disappointment with a liquid strain, just so much cleaner & better In general IMO. 

Not really interested in fixing, just going to give dried yeast the ass.


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## fletcher (11/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Could be, probably done 60-70 batches total, probably 10-15, with dried strains, they pretty much always disappoint, probably had 2 or 3 that have been decent. Try to use liquid strains most of the time, I'm yet to reach this level of disappointment with a liquid strain, just so much cleaner & better In general IMO.
> 
> Not really interested in fixing, just going to give dried yeast the ass.


this makes me laugh.

accuse all dry yeasts of being terrible when most users have success; particularly with us-05. someone offers to help with your issues and you decline.


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## rockeye84 (11/1/16)

Sorry mate I'm just venting coz really pissed off. I'm sure there is some explanation or something I've done wrong but can't be assed trying to diagnose & fix right now.


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## wambesi (11/1/16)

Not to mention many very successful craft breweries use dried yeast all the time. Exactly the same stuff available to us, just in bigger quantities.


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## Tropico (11/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Got lazy and didn't make a starter before brewing so used us05, rehydrated & pitched 3 in date packs into well 60l of well oxygenated wort at 18c, has been fermenting @18c since 2nd of Jan.
> 
> Over attenuated and tastes like leffe, full of esters and is ******* shit as far as I'm concerned! Was meant to be a mild blonde ale but all I can taste is filthy dirty shitty yeast esters, no malt no hops jus shitty esters!
> 
> ...


Oh what a buggar!


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## rockeye84 (11/1/16)

Do ya best to do everything right and end up with 60l of crud!! Just makes ya want to leave all ya brewing shit out for the kirb side collection! Lol


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## citizensnips (11/1/16)

Yeah not sure why you're getting those results. I use 05 for probably 60% of beers and I'm pretty happy with the results. Ontop of that I worked in a commercial brewery with a pretty good output who only used dry safale in their wort.


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## evoo4u (11/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Do ya best to do everything right and end up with 60l of crud!! Just makes ya want to leave all ya brewing shit out for the kirb side collection! Lol


What suburb you in?


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## Dan2 (12/1/16)

Given that it's only been 10 days since pitching (9 at the time of your OP), I'd say it needs time to clear.
Cold crash it today and let it sit at 0 for a couple days (even try some gelatin or isinglass).
I've used US-05 a few times lately for a very clean APA - tastes like shit at ferment temps - tastes amazing after a few days CC'd - even better after isinglass.


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## contrarian (12/1/16)

Is it possible that what you are measuring as 18C is actually warmer? 

I have had great success with dried yeasts both rehydrated and sprinkled as well as liquid yeasts with and without starters. 

It seems unlikely that dried yeast is the only culprit here!


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## Parks (12/1/16)

I always get long lag times using us-05 and most dried yeasts at that pitching rate. 

Biggest thing with US-05 is give 2 weeks in primary (at least 10 days). It will clean up after itself but don't rush it.


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## pist (12/1/16)

No issues here I don't even rehydrate, just pitch required amount of dry yeast. 
No esters just a clean neutral fermentation.


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## rockeye84 (12/1/16)

Cheers for the encouraging comments, I'll let it ride, hopefully the yeast cleans up a bit.


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## Bribie G (12/1/16)

About to pitch 2 packs of S-189 into an Aussie Lager if I can get off my arse.


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## technobabble66 (12/1/16)

Fermenting at 18°C, Bribie?
If you get off your arse, that is.


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## dannymars (12/1/16)

I don't rehydrate, 

waste of time, potential for contamination high...

never had an issue with US05 (or that danstar version, I think it's called West Coast Ale)...


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## Adr_0 (12/1/16)

I just feel awkward for the hundreds/thousands of breweries around the world making delicious beer that are now finding out the yeast they have been using is just shitty dry yeast....


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/1/16)

If you deem the potential for contamination as high when rehydrating, I'd suggest you should look at your regular sanitation regime. If you can ferment a full batch successfully with the right sanitation, you can surely rehydrate yeast with extremely minimal risk of contamination.


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## Danscraftbeer (12/1/16)

I make starters every time. Its nice to see visual confirmation that's its active and viable. There's always the risk its lost viability in previous storage before you buy it, dry or liquid. I've been surprized to see how yeast viability and starter activity can vary from one pack to another of the same yeasts.


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## Bribie G (12/1/16)

technobabble66 said:


> Fermenting at 18°C, Bribie?
> If you get off your arse, that is.


I'll do the full Carlton on this one, pitch at 13 for five days then let it rise to 19 over five days, then lager at -1 for ten days.

I did get off my arse, into the spare room for a nap


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## Nizmoose (12/1/16)

Surely some sanitation issues here? If you've rehydrated into something not clean or sanitary you'd expect carry over. Also three packets assuming 10 billion cells per gram of dried yeast is a massive underpitch (Not heaps of details on your particular recipe but using brewers friend yeast calc I've put in 1.050 wort, and a pitching rate of 0.75M/ml/degree plato which is lower than I'd use). No offence but I wouldnt expect brilliant beer if I underpitched by 227 Billion cells. Sure make a starter but I've used dry notto and us05 numberous times unrehydrated poured straight in AFTER I've calculated whether or not that pitch is sizeable enough, I do 10-13L batches so the answer is yes. I'd never pitch without a starter without using a pitching rate calculator using extremely conservative numbers.


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## rockeye84 (12/1/16)

After several more tastes, I'm thinking its as above under pitch or infected. Dried yeast must just hate me, I've made heaps of beers with liquid yeast and never had an issue. Me rehydrating techniques must be up the shit or something.


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## Nizmoose (12/1/16)

It could simply be that everytime you have used liquid yeast you have pitched correctly because you've made a starter and every time you've used dry yeast you've underpitched, stressed the yeast, produced a heap of esters and acetylaldehyde and have put the blame on the dry yeast as opposed to your lack of pitching calculations prior


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## verysupple (12/1/16)

I'm leaning more toward infections rather than underpitching. I say this because I'd say Leffe is known more for its phenolic character rather than esters. Phenols can come from wild yeast etc. So, if the beers are Leffe-like, then phenolics (possibly infection) are the problem.

Of course if it really is esters, rather than phenols, then underpitching is a likely suspect.

Happy brewing.


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## Bribie G (12/1/16)

There's a distinct possibility you could have developed petite mutant yeast cells.
You would need to adjust the X, P and G vectors according to this formula







h34r:


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/16)

dannymars said:


> I don't rehydrate,
> 
> waste of time, potential for contamination high...
> 
> never had an issue with US05 (or that danstar version, I think it's called West Coast Ale)...


A while back there was a very healthy discussion on this very subject. h34r:

I am still not sure what the result is..... :unsure:


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/1/16)

This the one, yeah? http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/74450-re-hydrate-v-not/page-23


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

Yep


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## danestead (13/1/16)

Tell us what you really think haha


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

Aahhhh....The old days.....


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## rockeye84 (13/1/16)

Just to add, on brew day I split off 25L of my wort to a separate kettle to make a hoppy us pale ale, same yeast(pitched about 1.5pkts), same ferment temp, same rehydrating technique, only diff was a tonne more hops. It just finished fermenting and hit my target of 1.010, hydro sample tastes great. Clean as. Possible the extra hops had an antiseptic effect? The other leffe tasting beer is down to 1.008 now which makes me think it's gotta be infected as. Must not have sanitised my fermenter well enough. 
So just want apologise, "sorry dry yeast, you are probably not so bad".

It's a good learning experience, will be going even more nazi on the sanitation in the future.


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## Coodgee (13/1/16)

It might be that the lag time that is generally experienced with a dry yeast may be enough time for an infection to set in, whereas when you are making a big starter the lag time is very small so the yeast immediately dominates. you might have an underlying sanitation issue. what sort of sanitiser are you using?


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## Nizmoose (13/1/16)

verysupple said:


> I'm leaning more toward infections rather than underpitching. I say this because I'd say Leffe is known more for its phenolic character rather than esters. Phenols can come from wild yeast etc. So, if the beers are Leffe-like, then phenolics (possibly infection) are the problem.
> 
> Of course if it really is esters, rather than phenols, then underpitching is a likely suspect.
> 
> Happy brewing.


Surely infection and underpitching may possibly be one and the same thing, rather a cause (underpitching) and effect (infection, be it mild or severe)


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

Nizmoose said:


> Surely infection and underpitching may possibly be one and the same thing, rather a cause (underpitching) and effect (infection, be it mild or severe)


Ahh...No

You can underpitch and not have an infection

The two are most definitely not one and the same. You could throw a ton of yeast at a ferment and if it has an underlying infection the yeast wont make any difference to the beer becoming infected


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## TheWiggman (13/1/16)

I unfortunately share rockeye84's bad luck in that every time I've had an infection in the fermenter (twice) I've used rehydrated dry yeast. I've only used US-05 once and that was one of the brews. I have however had luck with rehydrated yeast and can't report of the phase of the moon, alignment between Jupiter and Saturn nor operational status of HAARP at the time.


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## Ross (13/1/16)

Absolutely nothing wrong with dried yeast, definitely sounds like a process problem & most likely contamination. Can probably sort it over a phone call, so feel free to give me a call at CraftBrewer on 07 3823 5252

Cheers Ross


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## danestead (13/1/16)

TheWiggman said:


> I unfortunately share rockeye84's bad luck in that every time I've had an infection in the fermenter (twice) I've used rehydrated dry yeast. I've only used US-05 once and that was one of the brews. I have however had luck with rehydrated yeast and can't report of the phase of the moon, alignment between Jupiter and Saturn nor operational status of HAARP at the time.


You had an infection with rehydrated yeast and also had luck with rehydrated yeast? Was 1 of them meant to be not hydrated?


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## rockeye84 (13/1/16)

Use pink Neo, plus starsan round the rim of the fermenter whilst draining the kettle, go reasonably hard with it. Both brews had the yeast rehydrated & and pitched in the same fashion. Must have been something lurking in my fermenter. Can starsan go bad sitting round in a spray bottle between brews?


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## Rocker1986 (13/1/16)

Yes, another satisfied US-05 user here too, never had any issues with it. These days I make starters with the fresh packs (more due to my harvesting and re-using method than anything else), but I have simply re-hydrated and pitched into the wort, or before that, pitched it dry into the wort, and all batches turned out fine.

I would be looking at other factors than the yeast itself. You say the smaller batch with 1.5 packs turned out quite well with no problems? Maybe the bigger batch was underpitched.


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## TheWiggman (13/1/16)

Nah, meant to hydrate both because


Spoiler



rehydrating is the recommended method by yeast manufacturers, scientists and professional brewers alike


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## bradsbrew (13/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Use pink Neo, plus starsan round the rim of the fermenter whilst draining the kettle, go reasonably hard with it. Both brews had the yeast rehydrated & and pitched in the same fashion. Must have been something lurking in my fermenter. Can starsan go bad sitting round in a spray bottle between brews?


Isn't pink neo Trisodium phosphate and chlorine plus your not rinsing it?. Perhaps the esters you getting are actually phenols and chloramines?


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## rockeye84 (13/1/16)

Nah, rinse probably 3-4 times or until I can't smell the chorine smell.


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## danestead (13/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Use pink Neo, plus starsan round the rim of the fermenter whilst draining the kettle, go reasonably hard with it. Both brews had the yeast rehydrated & and pitched in the same fashion. Must have been something lurking in my fermenter. Can starsan go bad sitting round in a spray bottle between brews?


Yes, starsan is only effective if it's PH is less than I believe 3.5. Its PH will rise over time, especially if you have mixed it with untreated tap water. As a personal rule of thumb, I don't use any starsan on brew day if it hasn't been mixed that day.


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## bradsbrew (13/1/16)

Ok. I read it as you were spraying it with starsan and pink neo as it was transferring.


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## rockeye84 (13/1/16)

Nah jus a small amount of starsan ends up in the wort. No pink Neo in wort. Will be making fresh starsan on brew day from now on.


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## danestead (13/1/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Nah, meant to hydrate both because
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Still confused by your post.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Nah, meant to hydrate both because
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Excpet for those manufactures, scientists and pro brewers that say its Ok not to re-hydrate dry yeast


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## Nizmoose (13/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ahh...No
> 
> You can underpitch and not have an infection
> 
> The two are most definitely not one and the same. You could throw a ton of yeast at a ferment and if it has an underlying infection the yeast wont make any difference to the beer becoming infected


Sorry stu I certainly didn't mean they were the same thing and completely agree with you, more that one can potentially be the product of the other  obviously a well sanitised underpitched wort will likely be fine, and similarly an over pitched not well sanitised wort may also be relatively fine. But there's no doubt that pitching correctly goes some way to inhibiting potential bug related off flavours


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## CmdrRyekr (13/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Excpet for those manufactures, scientists and pro brewers that say its Ok not to re-hydrate dry yeast


Sources?


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

CmdrRyekr said:


> Sources?


The internet

........and some yeast manufacturers packaging ( as I am lead to believe )


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## Adr_0 (13/1/16)

TheWiggman said:


> I unfortunately share rockeye84's bad luck in that every time I've had an infection in the fermenter (twice) I've used rehydrated dry yeast. I've only used US-05 once and that was one of the brews. I have however had luck with rehydrated yeast and can't report of the phase of the moon, alignment between Jupiter and Saturn nor operational status of HAARP at the time.


The moon should also be at its apogee when pitching. Surely you know how critical this is?



Ducatiboy stu said:


> Excpet for those manufactures, scientists and pro brewers that say its Ok not to re-hydrate dry yeast


I think we should start a thread that discusses this. I would expect it would get to about 680 pages...

Meanwhile rokeye, my system is to soak the fermenter with sodium percarbonate overnight (after pulling the previous beer out) and put about 5-10L of starsan solution in with hoses, grommets, etc., make sure air is out of everything and shake and sit a couple of times, drain through the tap and try to get rid of a bit of the foam. Seems to have worked so far... will not save you from chlorophenols though.


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## TheWiggman (13/1/16)

Danestead, I've always hydrated my dry yeast. Beer can be made by hydrating, beer can be made by dry pitching. My pretty poor point is I've had 2 infections using hydrated yeast but I'm not sure the fact I hydrated it had anything to do with it or it was just a coincidence. The topic's been done to death, I've read enough to convince myself to rehydrate at the home brew level.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

Adr_0 said:


> I think we should start a thread that discusses this. I would expect it would get to about 680 pages...


Maybe



But back on topic...

Re-hydrating your yeast wont be the factor for an infection or it tasting like crap. The infection would come from your process/method/cleanliness. Something introduced not just the action of re-hydrating your yeast


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## Benn (13/1/16)

Rehydrate or sprinkle, thoughts?


















...mwuhaha


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## danestead (13/1/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Danestead, I've always hydrated my dry yeast. Beer can be made by hydrating, beer can be made by dry pitching. My pretty poor point is I've had 2 infections using hydrated yeast but I'm not sure the fact I hydrated it had anything to do with it or it was just a coincidence. The topic's been done to death, I've read enough to convince myself to rehydrate at the home brew level.


Sorry, I think you have misunderstood my post. Im not questioning hydrating or not. Im just confused that you say you have had infections each time when rehydrating yeast but then you go on to say you have had luck in rehydrating. So are you saying you have sometimes had success when rehydrating and other times not, or you have always had infection when rehydrating?


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## manticle (13/1/16)

I think he was casting aspersions on the OP's tenuous causal link.


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## Tahoose (13/1/16)

you guys are funny 

No problems with dry yeast down here.

Sprinkled or re-hydrated..


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## TheWiggman (13/1/16)

Most truth you've ever spoken Stu.
Yeah danestead, have done 4 brews using dry I think post-extract. 2 x M79, was good. Nottingham, worked but a sub par beer. US-05 had plasticky phenolics making it undrinkable - tipped. M44 same story.


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## Danscraftbeer (13/1/16)

I made starters in a sanitized plastic cup in the past. I think its that with wort the yeast get so active it dominates over anything else which must be why I got away with it. I wouldn't trust just rehydrating the yeast the same way though. Probably more risk of infection rather than just pitching dry.
Now my fussiness is more strict. If its just to rehydrate then the water is boiled in a flask for 10 minutes to sterilise the flask and water. Star san some foil and cap the flask while simmering. Rubber band around the neck and then quick chill in a very clean bucket of very clean ice water. Place the flask and the yeast in the temp control fridge to equalise the temperature of both. When I remove the cap and pitch yeast its done over a burning stove (were the heat plumes away resisting any airborn contaminates getting in) Then pitch the yeast into the flask of, water, or wort. Recap with the foil and let sit (like recommendations), mix, stir plate etc. 
How's that for fussiness.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/16)

Some people just rip the yeast open and sprinkle straight into the fermenter

Works just fine for them. Some have even won comps


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## Danscraftbeer (13/1/16)

Yeah I know. -_- That would piss me off if I've toiled over competitions. Lucky I haven't.


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## manticle (13/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Some people just rip the yeast open and sprinkle straight into the fermenter
> 
> Works just fine for them. Some have even won comps


Use these words in a sentence:

Labour
Point
Incessantly


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## Barge (14/1/16)

I labour over my brews but don't see the point in rehydrating as I incessantly have success when sprinkling yeast.

Edit: Sorry, couldn't help myself. 

I'll shut up now.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/16)

manticle said:


> Use these words in a sentence:
> 
> Labour
> Point
> Incessantly


There was a thread about Labour that incessantly tried to point to corruption of unions.


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## Blind Dog (14/1/16)

Labor, who for some reason can't spell Labour correctly, are pissed off that the prime minister's official residence of Kirribilli House is currently occupied by the member for Wentworth, a constituency that includes Point Piper, and incessantly insist that Bill should be the next resident, with or without the imposition of GST on lettuce


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/16)

I wonder if Labours point is to incessantly blame Tony Abbott...... Oh wait, thats more of a question than a sentence.


But this has nothing to do with the fact that re-hydrating yeast would not cause your beer to turn shit


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## technobabble66 (14/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> ...... Oh wait, thats more of a question than a sentence...


Ah HA!! 
DS, a question is a sentence. 
I knew that through all of your labours you'd inevitably make an incorrect point. 

Oh wait, was the 3rd word "incessantly" or "inevitably"??
:lol:

Ps: wow, several mentions of labour/Labor and not a peep out of WEAL! Is he on holiday or something??


Yep. Totally off topic [emoji41]


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/16)

technobabble66 said:


> Ah HA!!
> DS, a question is a sentence.
> I knew that through all of your labours you'd inevitably make an incorrect point.
> 
> ...


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## Droopy Brew (14/1/16)

Another successful derailment. Do you work for Aurizon Stu?


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/16)

Droopy Brew said:


> Another successful derailment. Do you work for Aurizon Stu?



No...but I did spent a fair while working for the NSW Railways

Now back On-Topic everyone......


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## Droopy Brew (14/1/16)

Y'dont say? How bout that?


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## CmdrRyekr (15/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The internet
> 
> ........and some yeast manufacturers packaging ( as I am lead to believe )


I am asking you to provide these sources, so we can all learn, and to back up the claims you have made.

You don't science, do you...


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## Barge (15/1/16)

CmdrRyekr said:


> You don't science, do you...


You're new around here, aren't you...


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## nathan_madness (15/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Some people just rip the yeast open and sprinkle straight into the fermenter
> 
> Works just fine for them. Some have even won comps


1st prize "APA" 2016 and 3rd prize "APA" 2015 can't go too wrong!


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## manticle (15/1/16)

Depends on the comp. I got a first in a comp a few years back.
1 entrant in category.


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## nathan_madness (15/1/16)

Oh, sorry AABC

My bad!!!!



manticle said:


> Depends on the comp. I got a first in a comp a few years back.
> 1 entrant in category.


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## LAGERFRENZY (16/1/16)

I got a batch pack of US 05 off an Ebay vendor this summer. Now it could have sat in a stinking hot shed or waited in the sun to be loaded in a courier's van or whatever but this particular lot were all uncharacteristically weak. Brews that were dry pitched struggled to get going for days and latter lots that were rehydrated took ages to lather up. The next lot of US 05 that I got from a LHBS that were pulled from a fridge they all fired up like they should have no matter how they were pitched. Yep I tried to save a buck a packet of yeast for something that caused me my only slow or stalled ferments, some funky tastes (with temp control) plus one brew that got fed to the compost because it smelled and tasted very nasty. I just think that sometimes the damage may have been done to these fragile products BEFORE they even end up in our hands. 

B


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## Adr_0 (16/1/16)

manticle said:


> Depends on the comp. I got a first in a comp a few years back.
> 1 entrant in category.


Phew... that would be really awkward if you came last in that one.

Wait...


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/16)

CmdrRyekr said:


> I am asking you to provide these sources, so we can all learn, and to back up the claims you have made.
> 
> You don't science, do you...


I do do science.

From the fermentis website

*Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently*
*stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.*

*Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively*
*sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes,*
*then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.*


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## Mattrox (16/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I do do science.
> 
> From the fermentis website
> 
> ...


To me that reads like:

1) Best Practice is:

or

2) Alternatviely (ie if you cbf) you can :


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## Mattrox (16/1/16)

Oh, and in the 2nd procedure it recommends waiting 30 mins after sprinkling then, aerating or adding wort to mix. And to pitch on wort above 20 degrees C. How many times is the advice to pitch yeast cooler than worm up or to pitch at 18 degrees (or fermentation temperature).

How many "sprinklers" aerate, sprinkle at 18 deg then just leave it to ferment?


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> To me I want it to read like this :
> 
> 1) Best Practice is:
> 
> ...


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> . How many times is the advice to pitch yeast cooler than worm up or to pitch at 18 degrees (or fermentation temperature).


I dont know. Show me 


And i dont think worms have much place in a fermenter


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## Parks (16/1/16)

nathan_madness said:


> 1st prize "APA" 2016 ...


That's a little presumptuous!


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## madpierre06 (16/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> How many "sprinklers" aerate, sprinkle at 18 deg then just leave it to ferment?



Prior to using liquid yeasts, did this every time and enjoyed the ensuing ale'ish product. Just wondering whether you could also apply that same question to 'sprinkling'? Saw a few sprinklers at the last case swap.


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## Mattrox (16/1/16)

madpierre06 said:


> Prior to using liquid yeasts, did this every time and enjoyed the ensuing ale'ish product. Just wondering whether you could also apply that same question to 'sprinkling'? Saw a few sprinklers at the last case swap.


All I'm saying is the goal posts are shifting. 

There are instructions about dry yeast from the manufacturer that one can reasonably assume is best practice.

Our resident pot stirrer is claiming that sprinkling is also best practice. But this is the alternative to the 1st option. On top of that the alternative includes sprinkling ABOVE 20 degrees and waiting 30 mins and then stirring the wort.

Now, I'm not saying you can't make good beer by just other methods. And I know lots of people make some really good beer. But this whole thing started as how best to handle dry yeast. One can really only say that the best way is to follow the manufacturer's directions. 

Now I know Stu has probably forgotten more about brewing than I will ever learn. Actually I don't think his memory is bad at all. However, he's playing the semantics debate.


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## Mattrox (16/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I dont know. Show me
> 
> 
> And i dont think worms have much place in a fermenter


I might just use this post as a typical post regarding pitching yeast.



Ducatiboy stu said:


> You want your pitching temp the same as your ferment temp


Given that your advice is not in line with the manufacturer's advice that you quoted in evidence that dry pitching can be best practice it seems a disingenuous contention.

A "I get good results doing this"...... Sure, everyone does things differently. But your recommendations are not what the manufacturer suggests.


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## madpierre06 (16/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> All I'm saying is the goal posts are shifting.
> 
> There are instructions about dry yeast from the manufacturer that one can reasonably assume is best practice.
> 
> ...


And youve hit my practice on the head - if dry yeast says to sprinkle is fine, thats what i do. If it says to rehydrate, likwise.


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## danestead (16/1/16)

If sprinkling was better than rehydrating, rehydrating would never be mentioned or invented. More effort to rehydrate, more chance of infection.

I believe rehydrating is better (based on reading, not side by side testing or anything), and I will always rehydrate.


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## Tropico (16/1/16)

It's all rehydrating to me. Either rehydrate in water, which I understand results in reduced kill rate, or rehydrate directly into wort.


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## bradsbrew (16/1/16)

I always just sprinkle dry yeast or direct pitch liquid yeast. If its a bigger beer i use more yeast. If i need a big pitch i will use some yeast cake. Its not best practice but it works for me and has never been the cause of infection. I have had a couple of infections over the years but they were from doing stupid shit.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> I might just use this post as a typical post regarding pitching yeast.
> 
> 
> Given that your advice is not in line with the manufacturer's advice that you quoted in evidence that dry pitching can be best practice it seems a disingenuous contention.
> ...


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/16)

bradsbrew said:


> I always just sprinkle dry yeast or direct pitch liquid yeast. If its a bigger beer i use more yeast. If i need a big pitch i will use some yeast cake. Its not best practice but it works for me and has never been the cause of infection. I have had a couple of infections over the years but they were from doing stupid shit.


Funny how that works B)


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## rockeye84 (17/1/16)

The great debate. Sprinkle vs rehydrate vs starter. 

Who would have thought my lil angry rant at my beer turning to shit would have caused such a blow out of opinion & experience. 

Thanks for all of your input. It's good to hear of other people's success and as in my case misfortune, at least I'm not alone.

Have to say I'm on the "starter" apex of the triangle & will probably go to my grave believing that pitching a starter of heathy yeast that was actively fermenting wort days earlier shits all over pitching dry or rehydrating.. 

All stated is on my own personal experience. Countless great beers using starters based on dry and liquid strains, a very memorable few beers where I've pitched dry or rehydrated to end up with beer full of yeasty esters due to yeast stress, under pitch or my own process/sanitation issues.

Which brings me to another point in regards to under pitching, not sure who it was someone mentioned on this post that I may have under pitched, I had 60l of wort @ 1.049 and pitched 3.5pks of fresh/new us05, pkt states "sufficient for 23l of wort" so 3.5pks should be sufficient for 80.5L of wort, do they just lie on the packet? If that's the case, and I need to pitch double what the packet suggests, 6 packs of us05 would cost me $30 at my lhbs, vs 1 pack plus $8 of ldme to make a 5L starter, plus the reassurance of knowing your pitching healthy active yeast, the starter route although extra work and a little more work and stuffing around is a no brainer in my opinion.


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## Mattrox (17/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> The great debate. Sprinkle vs rehydrate vs starter.
> 
> Who would have thought my lil angry rant at my beer turning to shit would have caused such a blow out of opinion & experience.
> 
> ...


I think you pitched sufficient.

Don't do a starter with dry yeast it's counter productive. If you want to do a starter choose a liquid yeast.

I recently heard that the guys at Feral decided to pitch dry instead of rehydrate for fear of contamination. Now, this is only 2nd hand and I don't know if they changed pitching rate or if the report is accurate (though I don't have reason to disbelieve it). But plenty of people pitch dry and don't get what you seem to be exxperiencing. This is why lots of people are saying look at something other than the yeast in your methodology.


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## Nizmoose (17/1/16)

It's so weird I have sprinkled and rehydrated and every time this weird sort of 'beer' product which tasted great was bottled every time. It's almost as if, and wait for it, it doesn't ******* matter. ☺


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/1/16)

Nizmoose said:


> It's so weird I have sprinkled and rehydrated and every time this weird sort of 'beer' product which tasted great was bottled every time. It's almost as if, and wait for it, it doesn't ******* matter. ☺


Funny that.


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## indica86 (17/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> Don't do a starter with dry yeast it's counter productive.


Why?


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## warra48 (17/1/16)

indica86 said:


> Why?


Dry yeast is optimised for rehydration and then to pitch into a brew.

Liquid yeast is not optimised the same, and is designed to be pitched as is into a brew of the correct size and gravity, or otherwise to be built up into a starter.

The yeast laboratories do not lie. My experience is that it pays to take their advice from their websites.

I know the advice on the packets of dry yeast occasionally conflicts with the much more detailed advice on the laboratories' websites. The advice on the packet will work after a fashion, but is designed for the lazy brewer who can't be arsed doing things properly.

It's not rocket science folks. If there are problems even after following the producers' advice, then look elsewhere for a solution.


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## Feldon (17/1/16)

.



"All I am saying, is give yeast a chance..."


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/1/16)

So..... who has done a side by side re-hydrate v sprinkle in the same beer....

Science is a wonderfull think, but if sprinkling gives the same result as re-hydrating, whats the point in re-hydrating if sprinkling does the same job


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## goid (17/1/16)

Well, science worries about the yeast health. We as brewers are more concerned with the resulting beer. Science side would be concerned over a couple million of dead yeast. Home brewers not so much when the resulting beer tastes ok. But to what level does it taste ok. How closely are we brewers tasting our resulting beers?


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## Feldon (17/1/16)

Goid said:


> How closely are we brewers tasting our resulting beers?


About arms length last time I looked.


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## TwoCrows (17/1/16)

I have only used de-hydrated yeasts, US 05 and the coopers kit yeasts.
They are de-hydrated and they work well just sprinkled on top of the wort at the correct temp.

Allow the yeast 20 minutes to re-hydrate and stir in well aerating the crap out of the wort until a huge foam is evident then relax until dry hoping or FG. 

I have made starters the night before and has made no difference for me making beer.
I have had no infections, the less you do you will limit contact with bacteria. Keep it simple , add quality, enjoy.


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## goid (17/1/16)

Feldon said:


> About arms length last time I looked.


Exactly. If it passes the tongue and we go back for more. Success! :chug:


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## Tropico (17/1/16)

So who sprinkles, and then stirs in? Or do you just sprinkle and seal the fermenter?


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## bradsbrew (17/1/16)

The only benefit you are going to get from stirring the sprinkled yeast in after 20 minutes is the extra oxygen/aeration.


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## indica86 (17/1/16)

Goid said:


> Science side would be concerned over a couple million of dead yeast.


Where is the PROOF?

Not what I read, what is here, what he said, but actual proof?


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## Mr B (17/1/16)

I generally use liquid yeasts, and use a starter. Due to the fact that I am an efficient brewer (tightarse) and like to grow my own.

However, I am about to make a saison, and I think that I will use belle saison yeast, and grow approx 2g of dry yeast to a liquid starter.

Have done a test run, and the dry yeast appears to have made a quantity of liquid yeast in excess of the initial pitch. It was a week ago, but due to delays in my holiday which have meant that I havent actually got around to doing what I actually want to do, I'm not sure if I will use it or go again.

Really, it doesnt matter, keep your sanitisation and pitching rates correct, and its all good to go.

And 5 batches for $5 - its all good eh


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## Mattrox (17/1/16)

indica86 said:


> Where is the PROOF?
> 
> Not what I read, what is here, what he said, but actual proof?


Have a read of the dry yeast FAQ on HBT complete with references. It's a good read.


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## Mattrox (17/1/16)

http://seanterrill.com/2011/04/01/dry-yeast-viability/


http://seanterrill.com/2011/07/29/dry-yeast-viability-take-two/



> A blind tasting revealed that while similar, there were distinct differences between the three samples. All exhibited some degree of “musty” yeast off-aroma, with the smell being strongest in 2U and least prominent in U. 2U also had the highest degree of esters (particularly peach/apricot), and was the only sample to exhibit an acetaldehyde flavor. R was the cleanest overall, with the lowest level of “hot” alcohol character.


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## Rocker1986 (17/1/16)

I make starters with dry yeast purely to be able to harvest some for re-use (if it's a strain I use often like US-05), as I harvest from starters rather than the fermenter trub. The yeast is always re-hydrated before it is pitched into the starter wort. It may not be best practice to make starters with these yeasts, but it works for me and the beers are fine. And then after that initial use the yeast is liquid anyway.


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## Lecterfan (17/1/16)

Why the living **** is this thread still going?


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## jc64 (18/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Got lazy and didn't make a starter before brewing so used us05, rehydrated & pitched 3 in date packs into well 60l of well oxygenated wort at 18c, has been fermenting @18c since 2nd of Jan.
> 
> Over attenuated and tastes like leffe, full of esters and is ******* shit as far as I'm concerned! Was meant to be a mild blonde ale but all I can taste is filthy dirty shitty yeast esters, no malt no hops jus shitty esters!
> 
> ...


I don't even want to read the three pages of this post. In summary- If you are blaming dry yeast for your shit beer you are wrong.


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## Yob (18/1/16)

danestead said:


> Yes, starsan is only effective if it's PH is less than I believe 3.5. Its PH will rise over time, especially if you have mixed it with untreated tap water. As a personal rule of thumb, I don't use any starsan on brew day if it hasn't been mixed that day.


Starsan will turn cloudy as it deteriorates, I mix up 20l at a time and have never seen it do so over the months it takes me to use it, Melbourne water is perfect for it.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (18/1/16)

Yob said:


> Starsan will turn cloudy as it deteriorates, I mix up 20l at a time and have never seen it do so over the months it takes me to use it, Melbourne water is perfect for it.


Same, tested some starsan on the saturday just gone which was mixed on 12/10/2015 and the pH was still 3, used it and was just fine. I always put it back in the storage cube through a small sieve to keep chunks of stuff from sitting in the starsan.


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## Tropico (18/1/16)

Lecterfan said:


> Why the living **** is this thread still going?


Because it rouses people's emotions, and they have the need to say something.


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## goid (18/1/16)

indica86 said:


> Where is the PROOF?
> 
> Not what I read, what is here, what he said, but actual proof?


The highly experienced lab people at fermentis, lallemand danstar and other dried yeast manufactures would be able to give you a mountain load of PROOF. How about you go ask them. It is there business to study and research that kind of thing. 

Edit: They would have plenty of proof but may not give it over that easily. Also when I said science I meant the study of yeast not the effects on the beer so much.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/16)

Lecterfan said:


> Why the living **** is this thread still going?


Because, well just because B)


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## Adr_0 (18/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> http://seanterrill.com/2011/04/01/dry-yeast-viability/
> 
> 
> http://seanterrill.com/2011/07/29/dry-yeast-viability-take-two/
> ...


I was going to chime in and mention viability (two fresh packs, R vs U will likely give comparable results) while older yeast - more brittle cell walls - are more likely to be less viable on a bulk level with those remaining undergoing more stress being pitched into wort than water.

I have references for the above of course, over... there.


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## danestead (18/1/16)

Yob said:


> Starsan will turn cloudy as it deteriorates, I mix up 20l at a time and have never seen it do so over the months it takes me to use it, Melbourne water is perfect for it.


Yes Melbourne water would be great. You should come across the ditch and try Perth Water. 450 TDS vs about 30 TDS in Melbourne!


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## Mattrox (18/1/16)

Adr_0 said:


> I was going to chime in and mention viability (two fresh packs, R vs U will likely give comparable results) while older yeast - more brittle cell walls - are more likely to be less viable on a bulk level with those remaining undergoing more stress being pitched into wort than water.
> 
> I have references for the above of course, over... there.


I think if you pitch enough yeast via sprinkling, even if you lose some, you will not be under pitching. As you say if yeast is not fresh then the loss of yeast through sprinkling will be a factor. Why do lots of people sprinkle and get good results???? I reckon that the number of cells in a fresh packet is a conservative estimate and that sprinklers are very often not under pitching or not by enough to affect the outcome of the beer. A mate sprinkles and just pitches 2 packets everytime.


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## Mr B (23/1/16)

danestead said:


> Yes Melbourne water would be great. You should come across the ditch and try Perth Water. 450 TDS vs about 30 TDS in Melbourne!


Maybe you need to whirlpool [emoji6]


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## HBHB (23/1/16)

Going to ask a stupid question......why US-05 in a Belgian Style anyway?


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## Blind Dog (23/1/16)

HBHB said:


> Going to ask a stupid question......why US-05 in a Belgian Style anyway?


Not sure it was. OP referred to using US05 trying to make a 'mild blonde ale' but it ended up tasting shit like Leffe. Everyone then seemed to assume OP meant they were trying to make a Belgian blonde. Not sure that would be the case when the reckon Leffe tastes like shit.

I could be wrong though, but then I fail to understand why anyone would describe Leffe as shit


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## rockeye84 (23/1/16)

Was meant to be a blonde ale but taste like a Belgian coz of a likely wild yeast infection.

Making a bohemian lager today, sanitised the fk out of every piece of brewing equipment last night, stepped up a 1l starter to a 5l starter of wyeast boh lager, have it sitting in the fridge @10c ready to be pitched.

Better luck this time eh.


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## danestead (23/1/16)

Mr B said:


> Maybe you need to whirlpool [emoji6]


?


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## danestead (23/1/16)

rockeye84 said:


> Was meant to be a blonde ale but taste like a Belgian coz of a likely wild yeast infection.
> 
> Making a bohemian lager today, sanitised the fk out of every piece of brewing equipment last night, stepped up a 1l starter to a 5l starter of wyeast boh lager, have it sitting in the fridge @10c ready to be pitched.
> 
> ...



You say u sanitized last night. You are sanitizing just prior to using your equipment as well right?


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## rockeye84 (23/1/16)

Correct, sanitised all hoses and chiller etc, filled fermenters and associated equipment with pink Neo, will rinse fermenters just be4 filling with wort.


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## Mr B (6/2/16)

danestead said:


> ?



Ahh, soz, meant whirlpool to drop out the solids.

Not very funny, Carry on


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