# Users Of The "no Chiller Method"



## Duff

I brewed 3 AG's this weekend, all with the no chill method.

Two yesterday were put in kegs straight out of the kettle and topped up with CO2. Left overnight and racked to fermenters today by siphon. A huge amount of break by leaving out overnight, with the wort crystal clear but lost alot with break material. I think if anyone was to do this then they would need to factor in at least 2 to 3 litres extra to compensate for break when transferring to the fermenter.

Seems good so far, just finished an Oktoberfest which is in a 20L cube, will see tomorrow how much wort minus break I'll end up with.

Cheers.


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## Stuster

Duff said:


> I brewed 3 AG's this weekend, all with the no chill method.
> [post="115200"][/post]​



Wow. Impressive work Duff. Nearly up to Doc speed.

Good that you are testing this. Let us know how you go.


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## Tony

i am planing on trying this method out of curiosity but i did try one ESB fresh wort kit years back

an amber ale from memory.

i do recal it was hazy when chilled but we will see

cheers


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## Gerard_M

Duff said:


> I brewed 3 AG's this weekend, all with the no chill method.
> 
> Two yesterday were put in kegs straight out of the kettle and topped up with CO2. Left overnight and racked to fermenters today by siphon.
> [post="115200"][/post]​



Duff- why siphon? Why not push the wort out of the keg with CO2?

Cheers
Gerard


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## Linz

Gerard_M said:


> Duff said:
> 
> 
> 
> I brewed 3 AG's this weekend, all with the no chill method.
> 
> Two yesterday were put in kegs straight out of the kettle and topped up with CO2. Left overnight and racked to fermenters today by siphon.
> [post="115200"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Duff- why siphon? Why not push the wort out of the keg with CO2?
> 
> Cheers
> Gerard
> [post="115461"][/post]​
Click to expand...



Wouldnt that result with all the break material and proteins in the fermenter(a no-no as seen in Arthurs post)???


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## Duff

Didn't want to suck up the break. Will rack my Oktoberfest this afternoon to a fermenter. I'm hoping with a 20L cube and tap that most of the break should settle down the sides.

Cheers.


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## bindi

I have been reading this topic just about every hour <_< time to decide, I have 21.5L of fresh just finished boiling wort to go into a cube or chilled etc, what do I do? <_< I will toss a coin  back soon.


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## warrenlw63

Weizguy said:


> Just rinse the cube out, and allow the hot wort to sanitise it!
> 
> QED
> Seth out
> [post="115536"][/post]​



What you're espousing Weiz is very much akin to utilising a used condom. h34r: 

Warren -


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## Gerard_M

How do you recycle a condom?
You shake the F#*k out of it!


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## bindi

Ag#11 is now in a cube hot  had to draw off some to feed the starter [ after it is cool] I had going just in case I changed my mind. :huh: will pitch it Wed afternoon in the new wort, if it cools down  it was 95c going in.


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## Linz

Next He'll be telling you to 'Put your manners back in!'


mandrakar, you didnt edit out 'something else' silly did you??


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## Weizguy

warrenlw63 said:


> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just rinse the cube out, and allow the hot wort to sanitise it!
> 
> QED
> Seth out
> [post="115536"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you're espousing Weiz is very much akin to utilising a used condom. h34r:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="115552"][/post]​
Click to expand...

Thanks Warren,

I didn't mean to sound that I'm advocating poor practice.
I was just trying to give Brent a (weak) possible explanation for the "less sanitising" comment.

Maybe I should keep quiet while all these literal-minded AHBers are online.

Naaaahh!

...and they did recycle condoms back in the days when they made connies of pig gut, and didn't know better.

Seth out


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## Uncle Fester

Linz said:


> Next He'll be telling you to 'Put your manners back in!'
> 
> 
> mandrakar, you didnt edit out 'something else' silly did you??
> [post="115669"][/post]​




Nah.. the "edit" was simply the PS:

M


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## Batz

Well I find this topic very interesting,it would be one of the most followed topics on this computer for sometime.

I own a ccfc and don't find this adds much time to my brew day,it and the tubing is filled with Phos. acid during the boil, as the the wort flows all the Phos. acid is pushed out,then it into the fermenter.

But I am giving this no chill a run next brew day , worth a shot.

Batz


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## warrenlw63

Batz.

I do something similar. Nothing wrong with a bit of yummy ally seasoning. :lol: 

At least we get the canned beer experience. :blink: 

Warren -


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## smashed jaffa

Dicko

Great point, as I for one are soon to be new to AG brewing. This thread has interested me greatly over the last few days as I am gathering the equipment to go All grain. 

I am certainly going to try this method from the get go as I believe there are more upsides than downsides (DMS), for me as a newbie such as;

1. Not having to buy/make an immersion chiller
2. Not having to use an immersion chiller.


One less thing I have to complicate my already (seemingly) complex task ahead.

This might be a great way to simplify the jump to AG brewing. Less moving parts less that can go wrong.

Great info from all sides me thinks.  

Cheers,

Smasher.


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## AndrewQLD

I have just racked my coopers pale ale clone into secondary, this brew went through the no chiller method as I described in an earlier thread.
Bear in mind that this is my staple house ale and as you can see from my signature I brew it a LOT, so I am fairly confident that my observations are accurate. This is a very light beer that is not malt or hop driven so off flavours or aromas will be very evident.

Fermentation time was the same, finishing gravity was as expected. I can not detect ANY sign of DMS in the fermented wort. The wort is clearer than usual, possibly due to the removal by racking of all the cold break prior to the yeast being pitched. The flavour seems to me to be cleaner/crisper, again possibly due to the cold break removal (or my imagination).

So, definately no infections, I am pretty certain there is no DMS and the quality of the beer is not deminished in any way. And I was able to go back to bed and sleep off my hangover about an hour earlier on brewday :blink: .
To me the benefits from the "No chiller method" is flexability on brewday, the ability to do a double batch without waiting for my wort to be force chilled with my IC before I can start the sparge of the second brew is great. Also the ability to get a head on brews when fermentation space is limited is a benefit too.
I think it has it's place, but I am still happy to cool my wort with the IC on a normal day.

Cheers
Andrew


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## warrenlw63

h34r: 

Warren -


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## Gough

AndrewQLD said:


> I have just racked my coopers pale ale clone into secondary, this brew went through the no chiller method as I described in an earlier thread.
> Bear in mind that this is my staple house ale and as you can see from my signature I brew it a LOT, so I am fairly confident that my observations are accurate. This is a very light beer that is not malt or hop driven so off flavours or aromas will be very evident.
> 
> Fermentation time was the same, finishing gravity was as expected. I can not detect ANY sign of DMS in the fermented wort. The wort is clearer than usual, possibly due to the removal by racking of all the cold break prior to the yeast being pitched. The flavour seems to me to be cleaner/crisper, again possibly due to the cold break removal (or my imagination).
> 
> So, definately no infections, I am pretty certain there is no DMS and the quality of the beer is not deminished in any way. And I was able to go back to bed and sleep off my hangover about an hour earlier on brewday :blink: .
> To me the benefits from the "No chiller method" is flexability on brewday, the ability to do a double batch without waiting for my wort to be force chilled with my IC before I can start the sparge of the second brew is great. Also the ability to get a head on brews when fermentation space is limited is a benefit too.
> I think it has it's place, but I am still happy to cool my wort with the IC on a normal day.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="115720"][/post]​



Thanks for reporting back Andrew - the results sound excellent so far  The convenience factor is indeed starting to stack up. Like you say, a definite option for days where time/space is more limited - a more flexible brewday... I'll keep chilling as normal at this stage, but it is sounding a definite option.  

Shawn.


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## Duff

I transfered my Oktoberfest last night from cube and no chill (brewed Sunday) to fermenter last night. Wort is extremely clear, but as with the two previously stored in a couple of kegs, I am finding I am losing around 2L in break. So 20L cube only 18L in fermenter.

Maybe my method of whirlpooling (spoon and stir the s*#t out of it and leave to settle) is the reason compared to what Gerard_M explained yesterday with the ESB kits whirlpooling for 20min as there is no break in them. Should a longer whirlpool be considered by somehow pumping wort back through the tap and pickup tube to create the whirlpool effect?

Cheers.


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## dicko

Thanks Andrew,
This is the standard of report needed for all to assess this method.

Duff,
If you have no other problems with this method then you could just brew a couple of extra litres.

Cheers


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## warrenlw63

Something that's slightly OT but vaguely related to the subject.

On a few occasions I've done 60 litres of Mild from 40 litres of wort. This would involve diluting the higher gravity wort with water.

I used to boil 25 litres of water and just pour into to a plastic fermenter and allow it a day or 2 (or longer) to cool. Not exactly the same method but the finished beer was always stable with no signs of infections from the added water. No plastic flavours either.

When the wort was chilled I'd just add the water evenly between 3 fermenters.  

Warren -


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## Jazzafish

Spot on Mah


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## Joel

The main drawcard for me is the ability to step up the starter with the same wort it is going into, while the bulk of it cools down to pitching temp.


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## bindi

My no chill ale is now in the fermenter bubbling away with Danstar Nottingham yeast at 16.5c  the wort was so clear smelt and tasted great, I was suprised by the amount of hops in the bottom of the cube though <_< thought I was pretty good at leaving most in the kettle, I will keep you posted on how it turns out.
So far so good.


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## Weizguy

Hey Dunkel! Wassup?  

I think that cold break is a function of temp, not cooling rate, as U suggested.
Had a heap of break in my boiler the next day, after siphoning the hot wort into my sanitised fermentor. The fermentor was placed in a laundry tub and the tub was topped up with cold tap water. Call me lazy, coz I left it there for 12 hrs b4 I changed the cold water. Remember the fermentor was sealed, with an airlock containing hot tap water added after the vessel was sanitised.
The vessel was placed in the fridge overnight, and then removed/allowed to warm up an extra 2 degrees to 18C, and then pitched with enough aeration to almost foam out of the top of the vessel. The beer seems to be going OK (krauesen/ tide mark). Will test sample tomorrow and advise.

Hopefully, as the airlock would have trapped any filth, the beer should be good.

This is a fairly rough experiment as I was simulating what a very busy (or lazy  )(or tired) individual would do. If the result is good, I'll be drinking 25 litres of Irish Red (ag, if anyone cares) within a month.

Was thinking of bottling a case in J. Squire stubbies, and kegging the remainder.

No sodium met was harmed (nor used) in this exercise.

Seth (it feels good 2 B a brewer)


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## berto

Ray, thats the exact same way i stepped up. Went to extract/partials (only 100g or so at this point of specialty grains) with just the bair minimum of extras and it really didnt take that long at all to do a brew. I was happy with the results vs time spent doing it.


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## MAH

big d said:


> Its got me beat.
> If brewers are so hung up on the length of a brew day why are you bothered with brewing your own beer.This topic is about a different method but is slowly swinging to a time saving method.I love my brewday.I couldnt care less about 5-10 minutes saving.Big deal.Try it and see the outcome.
> Enjoy the day a few beers a different method what ever.Brewing rocks and i cant get enough of it.
> 
> cheers
> big d
> [post="115845"][/post]​



I agree with you Bid D, I love my brew day, but lately the opportunity to brew is getting less and less. I'm not worried about knocking 30 mins off the end of my brew day, but I do like the sound of a double brew day, where you chill and pitch one batch and run the second batch into a cube, and then 1-2 weeks later, pitch directly on to the yeast cake. This would certainly be an advantage to someone like me who can only fit one 25 litre fermenter in their fridge. 

Cheers
MAH


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## warrenlw63

Crozdog

They look attractive. OTOH The many references to them having contained pickles or vinegar give me the heebie geebies. h34r: 

Warren -


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## Tony

bleach em!!!

nothing will live 

hehe

cheers


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## Tony

oooo forgot to add....

I am keen on the double batch in a day method.

I whave the capacity to make 2 x 50 liter batches.

one in the firmenter, one into 2 x 25 liter cubes.

100 liters on brew day.

Will take pics if i do it.

might have to do some planing first

cheers


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## warrenlw63

Borret said:


> Except the smell. Got a subway gerkin bucket. 1 year on and many different potions and lotions when I got it.... still stinks.. :lol:
> 
> Brent
> [post="115940"][/post]​




Berliner Weisse anybody?  

Warren -


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## warrenlw63

Tony said:


> bleach em!!!
> 
> nothing will live
> 
> hehe
> 
> cheers
> [post="115937"][/post]​



Tony, have you tried this? If so did it work OK? :unsure: 

Warren -


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## Boots

Well i love my brew days, but i have 2 kids under 4, a wife who works full time, and a new house which has a "to do list" as long as Darren's list of objections  . My best chance for brewing is on a weeknight after work

I'll be trying it for the time saving. Plus ... I've never really been happy with my CFC anyway. 30mins with the hose on full bore, god knows how much water, and a wort in the high 20's

What I'll be doing on my next brewday is this:
- more grain / less efficiency for a 30 min mash
- no chiller method

Should easily shave off an hour.

Cheers
"wouldn't know what dms tasted like anyway" Boots


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## hupnupnee

I've been finding this a fascinating thread. 

I brewed my third partial on the weekend, not up to AG yet, I boiled at a higher gravity than the final I was aiming at, simply because of a lack of boiling space. To cool the hot wort down fast I did a combination of cooling methods. First I used a short (5m) copper cooler, using recirculated water in an esky with lots of ice blocks and second I bought the equivalent mass of "pure" ice as I needed water and syphoned the hot water over the top. 

I was a little concerned about contaminents in the ice but I figured that it is probably made with filtered water, as most ice is, and that the sub zero temps would have inhibited the growth of any bacteria that was there. I also considered the fact that by cooling fast I was reducing time for foreign microbs h34r: to get established before the yeasties got to work.

Cheers Tim


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## Tony

i havnt tried it in a gerkin drum but i recon a week with either a bleach or caustic solution would cure most problems.

No promises though, just my opinion

cheers


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## Kai

Boots said:


> Ensure that the boil is vigorous - rolling
> 
> Allow at least 8% evaporation
> 
> 
> 
> [post="115981"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Got those bits covered, 33% evap on my last brew :blink:


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## AndrewQLD

Kai said:


> Boots said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ensure that the boil is vigorous - rolling
> 
> Allow at least 8% evaporation
> 
> 
> 
> [post="115981"][/post]​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Got those bits covered, 33% evap on my last brew :blink:
> [post="116003"][/post]​
Click to expand...


you must have some good efficiency with all that spargeing


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## Uncle Fester

Tony said:


> i havnt tried it in a gerkin drum but i recon a week with either a bleach or caustic solution would cure most problems.
> 
> No promises though, just my opinion
> 
> cheers
> [post="115995"][/post]​




Do you reckon those drums could handle an immersion element, and become a cheapo kettle?

or, to quote from "The Castle", Tell me I'm Dreaming.....

Have some jousting sticks going cheap...


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## Weizguy

warrenlw63 said:


> Berliner Weisse anybody?
> 
> Warren -
> [post="115944"][/post]​


I'll take that bet, maybe one day next week. Just gotta get the German Ale yeast culture up to 1 litre first, coz I'm giving the lacto culture a 4 hour head start. Definitely, ready to rack in 5 days.



Stuster said:


> The other reason DMS may not be a huge issue is the level of the precursor, SMM, is quite low in Australian malts. According to Wes in an old thread.
> [post="115940"][/post]​


No point telling the Yanks about this coz it won't work 4 them. Darn that 6-row malt!

Seth out


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## roach

inspired by this thread, I jumped on the "Save the Murray No Chiller Bandwagon" and brewed a marzen last night. 

After a whirpool and 15 min rest, I dumped the hort wort directly into a sanitised cube, sealed tightly and left overnight to cool outside. This morning I put the cube in the fermentation chest freezer, and will transfer to the fermenter and pitch the yeast when I get around to it sometime in the next week.

If this routine proves successful, I will definitely move to this method permanently. Well at least during the warmer months, where the water temp and chiller only gets the wort down to high twenties at best.


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## Darren

For all the "yayers" on this topic. I will make an analogy. Would you have sex with a stranger without a condom just because someone else did and said they didn't get AIDS?
I am sure many practice unsafe sex and don't get AIDS. Doesn't mean AIDS doesn't exist.
I have no doubt that rapid chilling is a scientifically proven part of the brewing process, otherwise why would megabreweries save on their time and water costs and just "miss" this part of the process.
Sometimes you will get away with being lazy or slack. Generally though it will come back and bite you!

cheers
Darren


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## Pumpy

This Post is getting bigger than Ben Hur MAH you created a monster !!!!!  

Pumpy


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## Batz

Darren said:


> Sometimes you will get away with being lazy or slack. Generally though it will come back and bite you!
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116094"][/post]​




Quite possiably right Darren
We have plenty of brewers giving this a go ATM,I hope we recieve just as much feed back,good or bad.
Oh..I am also going to try this next brew  

Batz


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## apd

Darren said:


> For all the "yayers" on this topic. I will make an analogy. Would you have sex with a stranger without a condom just because someone else did and said they didn't get AIDS?
> I am sure many practice unsafe sex and don't get AIDS. Doesn't mean AIDS doesn't exist.
> I have no doubt that rapid chilling is a scientifically proven part of the brewing process, otherwise why would megabreweries save on their time and water costs and just "miss" this part of the process.
> Sometimes you will get away with being lazy or slack. Generally though it will come back and bite you!
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116094"][/post]​



Darren,

No offense but that's a crap analogy.

HIV = possible loss of life, definite health problems.

No chiller method = _possible_ infected brew or DMS problem = _possibly_ throwing out one batch of beer.

Secondly, as a couple of people have already pointed out, allowing thouasands of litres of hot liquid to cool by itself is not viable for a commercial brewer and commercial brewing practices don't always translate to home brew scale.

Thirdly, we're home brewing! Why do you take it so seriously and feel the need to preach so much? The end product is beer. Who cares how you get there?


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## Duff

I thought commercial breweries use Glycol to chill rapidly so they can start fermenting ASAP to keep the swill pouring out the door. But I think at the end of the day, the ESB kits are good proof that this method can work. The dozen or so kits I have made are all excellent quality. Consistently.

Cheers.


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## Weizguy

Weizguy said:


> The beer seems to be going OK (krauesen/ tide mark). Will test sample tomorrow and advise.
> 
> Hopefully, as the airlock would have trapped any filth, the beer should be good.
> 
> This is a fairly rough experiment as I was simulating what a very busy (or lazy  , or tired) individual would do. If the result is good, I'll be drinking 25 litres of Irish Red (ag, if anyone cares) within a month.
> 
> Seth (it feels good 2 B a brewer)
> [post="115843"][/post]​


G'day all,

Just reporting that the beer in the fermentor had very little if any DMS and was not discernibly infected. It still tasted sweet and worty, but otherwise excellent, portending a great Irish Red. Mostly Maris Otter malt, FWIW.

This was a Weizguy progress report on last weekend's "No-chill" brew session.

Seth out


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## bindi

My first "no chill" went so well and so easy  I am about to weigh up the grains for my first double batch  off to buy another cube or two.


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## Batz

Batz said:


> Oh..I am also going to try this next brew
> 
> Batz
> [post="116102"][/post]​




Hell maybe not  

Not if you can catch Aids chilling this way :huh: 

That's what Darren said wasn't it?

Batz


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## Thommo

Gerard_M said:


> Batz
> That is a typical alarmist response from you. What Darren said was that the type of person who wouldn't chill their wort asap, has mates that are having unprotected sex with any old slapper that turns up!
> Nuff said really
> [post="116128"][/post]​



But I don't chill my wort ASAP and I....wait, better not admit that in here. :blink:


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## AndrewQLD

> I agree totally that it now simply an issue of addressing the chance of infection.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH



I believe the issue of infections has already been addressed by simply wearing a condom.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Joel

> I believe the issue of infections has already been addressed by simply wearing a condom.



:blink: That'd look a bit odd wouldn't it? :blink: Wearing nothing but a condom while brewing...

Hmmm... I can just imagine fiddling with my hot wort wearing nothing but a dinger... Kinky. B)


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## Stuster

Won't the beer taste funny? Plastic taste from the tongue protector? Better to be safe I suppose.

Stuart heads to fridge via medicine cabinet.


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## warrenlw63

No glove... No love.  

Warren -


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## Dunkel_Boy

So to summarise the last 15 pages...

If we don't wear condoms while we chill our wort, we get AIDS.

Sounds fair to me!



On a serious note...
Darren, have you read God's Debris? That kind of coarse analogy would go brilliantly in that short novel; it's packed full of them. Besides, you really need to lighten up - why not try it? If you don't like it, don't do it. You're not preaching to the deaf, you're preaching to the educated/diplomatic/discerning - we know that this is something that will probably work, but there's a decent chance it won't. If we try it, it could fail - and we can simply move on and return to wort chilling. Since you have background in science (I'll assume no engineering in there), you should be all for experimentally determining whether something is good or bad.


Adrian


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## Kai

Darren said:


> For all the "yayers" on this topic. I will make an analogy. Would you have sex with a stranger without a condom just because someone else did and said they didn't get AIDS?
> I am sure many practice unsafe sex and don't get AIDS. Doesn't mean AIDS doesn't exist.
> I have no doubt that rapid chilling is a scientifically proven part of the brewing process, otherwise why would megabreweries save on their time and water costs and just "miss" this part of the process.
> Sometimes you will get away with being lazy or slack. Generally though it will come back and bite you!
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="116094"][/post]​




Yeah, not to be repetitive but that's a bloody awful analogy daz. I know people pick up HIV by sticking their woowoo in a dirty wawa (or vice versa), but I have not heard of any health issues when using slow-chilled wort. That was my only lingering concern, thanks to the point you raised about anaerobic bacteria. My point is that with the right method in place, I don't think there is any issue with regards to infection.

And with regards to commercial breweries, I reckon the maillard browning involved in having to leave wort that long to cool would be truly impressive.


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## johnno

AndrewQLD said:


> I believe the issue of infections has already been addressed by simply wearing a condom.
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="116156"][/post]​




LOL

I can just see it now when I'm Grain and Grape next.

John,Sam or Chris:"Anything else with your order?"

Me:"One pack of Wildride please, it's going to be a heck of a brewing session"

johnno


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## Darren

johnno said:


> AndrewQLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the issue of infections has already been addressed by simply wearing a condom.
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="116156"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> I can just see it now when I'm Grain and Grape next.
> 
> John,Sam or Chris:"Anything else with your order?"
> 
> Me:"One pack of Wildride please, it's going to be a heck of a brewing session"
> 
> johnno
> [post="116195"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Johnno,
Good reason to go 3/4 inch disconnects.

cheers
Darren


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## Dunkel_Boy

Sweet - differences settled, onward we go. I've always wished I had a 2" disconnect...


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## sah

Darren said:


> For all the "yayers" on this topic. I will make an analogy. Would you have sex with a stranger without a condom just because someone else did and said they didn't get AIDS?
> I am sure many practice unsafe sex and don't get AIDS. Doesn't mean AIDS doesn't exist.
> [post="116094"][/post]​



Hi Darren,

HIV/AIDS is with you for life and will most likely kill you. Excessive DMS in a batch (if you can detect it) or a bacterial or wild yeast infection in a batch will last you 2 to 6 weeks and you are over it. If it happens enough it will turn you back to your old ways.

I am going to give it a go, mostly because of the water savings.

Scott


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## bindi

bindi said:


> My first "no chill" went so well and so easy  I am about to weigh up the grains for my first double batch  off to buy another cube or two.
> [post="116124"][/post]​




Can't do the double "no chill' I have been asked to do a AG demo for a few guys here, and only my 12th AG [and no march pump  ] so I will show the new AGs the other way [for now]  do what I have been doing.


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## redbeard

I cheated.

I did a double batch with the intention of cooling half into the fermentor & no chill the other half. i realised my starter wasnt quite ready, so decided to no chill both halves. just to mix it up a bit more, put both the (wort) cube & jerry into a large plastic storage bin & added about 20l of ambient water from a previous cfcw outflow. after a while the water got really hot ! so pumped it back into a cube & left the wort cubes to cool on my tiled balcony. after about 16 hours, they were ambient temp (25-28). 

sorry ray, i couldnt help myself. i needed to get a quick chill, even if it was only 15 - 20' 

whats the difference between addiction & passion again ?

;-)


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## Duff

I had a few of the wort kit containers cluttering up my garage so being unable to brew over the next couple of weekends, I thought I'd try making my own along the lines of the ESB product.

An Australian Ale today and a LCPA clone tomorrow. Adjusted my final volume to 31L and also to account for a fresh water addition of 5L when ready to ferment. Chews up the grain stock a bit though :lol: (around 18kg for both). Ready to pitch wort whenever I want.

Cheers.


----------



## T.D.

I brewed my LCPA clone today using the no chiller method and I couldn;'t have asked for a smoother brew day. Started at around 7am and finished at 11:30am (which also meant it was a relatively fast brewday!).

The wort is sitting in a 25L cube now and is still quite hot to the touch. I plan to pitch either tomorrow afternoon or Monday night. The only problem I have is that I am itching to know what the OG is so I can see whether my efficiency was good, bad or indifferent!

I'll be doing this again. It speeds up the brew day, It means one less piece of equipment to clean at the end of the day (ie the immersion chiller), and I can transfer to a fermenter and pitch the yeast whenever it suits from tomorrow onwards.


----------



## Tony

If you are to continually place hot wort into the same container and allow it to cool, you will quite effectively select for bacteria that will grow under those conditions. Stand up Mr Clostridium! (its lethal like AIDS too)

I agree you guys are doing something outside of the circle but you must be aware that there could be risk factors associated.


Darren.

Do you recon a bit of a bleach soak would kill anything in the cube between brews.

Its all i do with my firmenters and no infections yet!!!

Duff... 12 KG, is that all?

i am planing a wheat beer and a APA on my chill then dont chill brew day. that will use about 22kg of grain but 100 liters of beer  

cheers


----------



## Ray_Mills

Hi All
Well its good to see this "no chiller" method is sinking in and some of you are giving it a go.
Will be doing a double batch tomorrow and dumping my Schwarzbier on some nice active yeast.
We are just making beer and whats all the drama
Cheer to all
Ray


----------



## big d

Its looking to me as if quite a few posters have forgotten its generally only 22-23 litres of beer.
Hardly worth worrying about.If i have a beer im not pleased with i chuck it no probs.

Cheers
Big D


----------



## Pumpy

Ray_Mills said:


> We are just making beer and whats all the drama
> Cheer to all
> Ray
> [post="116406"][/post]​



Another gem Ray, sometimes we all get a bit "precious" about brewing 


Pumpy :lol:


----------



## T.D.

I had such a ball yesterday brewing with the no chiller method that I am probably going to brew again this afternoon! I don't think I have ever brewed both days of a weekend before but this stuff is just too much fun. I think I have definitely narrowed down which part of the brew day I least like!  :lol: 

I'm heading out to Big W to grab another 25L cube. This afternoon's beer will be the NSW Xmas in July Case Swap beer (super hoppy American IPA). So, anybody who is participating in this case swap will be able to see the method's results first hand!

Cheers, and hurrah for the no chiller method!


----------



## T.D.

Well the Xmas in July brew is safely sitting in a 25L cube awaiting pitching in a couple of days time (or whenever I feel like it!   ). I pitched the yeast in my LCPA clone this afternoon, following brewing it yesterday. After a few hours in the fridge it was 16-17degC when I pitched the yeast. I'll let it slowly rise to around 18-20, hopefully in around the same time it takes for the yeast to fire.

I am loving this method - so much more flexibility and I never realised how long the chilling process took me (and the extra hassle) until it was gone.

Cheers :beer:


----------



## T.D.

Chippy said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I must say that whist I have successfully put down the "No chill" beer from thursday I will still stick to the cooling quickly and pitching immediately method. But it is nice to know that I can piggy back brews in advance. As soon as a fermenter is free, just bang another wort in and jobs on. Looking forward to putting another brew down this week, even though I have a full fermenting fridge. I love the flexibility this presents.
> [post="116549"][/post]​



Chippy,

If you don't mind me asking, what made you decide to stick with the quick chilling method?


----------



## Darren

Tony said:


> If you are to continually place hot wort into the same container and allow it to cool, you will quite effectively select for bacteria that will grow under those conditions. Stand up Mr Clostridium! (its lethal like AIDS too)
> 
> I agree you guys are doing something outside of the circle but you must be aware that there could be risk factors associated.
> 
> 
> Darren.
> 
> Do you recon a bit of a bleach soak would kill anything in the cube between brews.
> 
> Its all i do with my firmenters and no infections yet!!!
> 
> Duff... 12 KG, is that all?
> 
> i am planing a wheat beer and a APA on my chill then dont chill brew day. that will use about 22kg of grain but 100 liters of beer
> 
> cheers
> [post="116404"][/post]​




Tony,
should work a treat. Just remember they are spore forming organisms and will take a bit more to kill than your average bacteria.

cheers
Darren


----------



## Uncle Fester

Darren said:


> If you are to continually place hot wort into the same container and allow it to cool, you will quite effectively select for bacteria that will grow under those conditions. Stand up Mr Clostridium! (its lethal like AIDS too)




Would you not also be risking this if you used the same sanitisation method each time? You would be grooming for a bleach/Iodophor/Sodium Met bacterial resistance?

I guess the key is HOT wort. If the wort is packed into a cleaned and steralised container at above pasteurisation temps, then the total environment is sterile?

"Nothing comes of Nothing"
King Lear

M


----------



## Duff

All my kits are soaked in strong bleach solution for 24hrs prior. When I refill next I am thinking of a hot caustic solution. I figure it's the same when treating any pest on turf, you have to keep a rotation policy in place.

Cheers.


----------



## JSB

Love the Brew Itinery Duff ! 

Cheers
JSB


----------



## Duff

JSB said:


> Love the Brew Itinery Duff !
> 
> Cheers
> JSB
> [post="116682"][/post]​



I love trying JSB, but I don't see too much happening down there mate judging by your sig....

What's the deal??

Cheers.


----------



## Tony

Darren said:

Slowly cooled and stored wort is perfect for this particular bug which produces a flavourless toxin

So what is the big deal if its flavorless????

Chill out man (pun intended)

Have a beer and dont worry so much.

If u dont like it, dont do it!

We are all fairly smart people, im only an electrical engineer, not quite a chemist or a scientist but i do think im smart enough to make my own mind up after trying something and i recon thats the best way to test this.

everyones brewing techniques are different and im sure that there are those that will find that this method is a failure for them but there will be those that will go well with it.

take it easy mate. :beer: 

cheers


----------



## sintax69

Found the downfall for this method today I laid myself on the line and tried this method (bugs come and get me) 
Anyway every thing went fine brew went in cube nice and hot and I love that I can now look out the window and if its sunny its a brew day no having yeast ready and it rains or its too bloody hot.
Anyway the downfall came just as I was packing up SWOMBO can out and said
"Well you are finished nice and early why dont you mow the grass now"

Ahhhhhhhh I going back to fly sparge & chilling with a ice cube if I have to, gone are my arvos of brewing and drinking dam you all


----------



## Uncle Fester

If we are getting all bent out of shape about transferring wort to a container and allowing it to cool, then what do we think about the risks of secondary racking a brew?


Would we not be playing Russian Roulette with a semi automatic pistol?


----------



## mongo

> I think I'll bow out of this debate for a while. I don't think there is much to be gained from continually presenting all of our respective opinions on the method.



Good idea. I am going to follow your lead.



> all of the people who do not support this method are the same people who have never tried it.



I've never tried it, and I support it!  

Will be trying it soon though.


----------



## PostModern

T.D. said:


> I know Alcohol is an excellent bug inhibitor, but if it is _that_ much better than all of the sterilisers we are using in brewing, why don't we all just sterilise our fermenters and other equipment with ethanol???
> [post="116739"][/post]​



I used to do that every third batch or so until I noticed a growing bitterness in my brews... lacking any source of ethanol that is not bitrex treated metho, I have aborted this practice. 

I will definately be giving the no chill method a go. Hell, if it works for the St Peters brewery, it's good enough for the Iron Wolf.


----------



## Jens-Kristian

I'm still fairly new to brewing with only three brews behind me, and therefore I have not yet bought a chiller as all the other equipment also cost a bit.

My experience with chilling the wort in the above-mentioned way has been all positive. 

What I did was, after the boil, to add the wort to my primary fermenter (still practically boiling) and through this sanitising the fermenter once more. I put the lid on it and left it in our outhouse which gets devilishly cold overnight - about 1-2 celsius (I live in Denmark - temperatures are a little different here  ).

After about seven hours like that, the beer had reached appr. 25 Celsius. I pitched the yeast after aerating the wort by stirring it vigorously.

First was a pretty heavy English Ale which worked out perfectly. No off flavours of any kind and just lovely. 

Next was an experiment that I wanted to try after reading about it; A Recreation of a 13th century English ale, as brewed then really and without hops as that was after all not used at that time. The outcome was very good, although it should be noted that without the hops the beer spoils a lot faster and therefore must be had within a few days after bottling.

Latest brew was a Red Abbey Ale of a Belgian variety (I make my own recipes based on a fair bit of research and according to what I think I might like) and this one is just fabulous. Same procedure and never a problem.

I think I might eventually get a chiller but after having done a few brews this way I must say that I am in no particular hurry. It'll come when I feel like it.

Also, remember that good beer has after all been brewed for centuries without there being any way to cool the wort as effectively as many say it must be.

Cheers,

Jens-Kristian


----------



## Uncle Fester

Jens,

What is it with you European types (I allude to Zwickel as well)

Your english is superb!

Unfortunately, my knowledge of Danish stops at Brigitte Nielsen h34r: 

Off topic I know, but had to be said...

M

[Edit: Spulling - Case in Point]


----------



## Pumpy

Quote Mandrakar ,

What is it with you European types (I allude to Zwickel as well)

Your english is superb!


Thats cuz the Danes invaded England Raped an Pillaged and picked up the lingo on the way through . :angry: 

Oh yeah I think they introduduced Hops to Englannd too we will thank em for that 
 


Pumpy


----------



## Darren

Hey guys,
Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
Should save some time and cost too.

cheers
Darren


----------



## Linz

"i'm a fat f*^k"


And whats wrong with being one of the above??????

BTW I USE an immersion chiller!!!,but picked up 4x20lt drums,today, from Reverse garbage, Marrickville for $3 ea


----------



## tangent

immersion chiller is the easiest brew project ever
and good luck on the obesity thing.


----------



## redbeard

Linz said:


> picked up 4x20lt drums,today, from Reverse garbage, Marrickville for $3 ea
> [post="116874"][/post]​



i had a squiz about a week or so ago and i thought all the cubes i saw were ex-chemical. did u get the blue covered drums with the round metal lid lock ?

cheers


----------



## Gerard_M

MAH said:


> Oh no I can't believe I'm still alive. I've been eating my mums home made jam for 35 years and she hasn't taken the time to can it, then heat it under pressure. My negligent mother has only been boiling the jam, then adding it while still at pasturisation temperatures to sanitised jars (jars are sanitised by cleaning then boiling, which also helps to stop them cracking when the hot jam is added). Why does this sound surprisingly similar to the no-chiller method. And guess what, I haven't died from anaerobic bacteria toxins. Not bad considering I eat homemade jam or lemon curd almost every day.
> 
> In the US they often include the added step of boiling the filled jars in a pan of water. This is because they use specific types of jars where the lids allow for a vacum to form. The extra step of creating a vacum in the headspace helps prevent mould growth.
> 
> Neither method uses pressure.
> 
> Maybe we're not reineventing the wheel after all.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH
> [post="116927"][/post]​



MAH
Is your mum a member of the Aussie Jam & Preserves forum ?(aussiejamsandpickles.com.au)
If so is she in the case swap thats coming up for Mothers day?

Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Trough Lolly

apd said:


> It kills the bug but not any spores. So, assuming there were spores in your wort to begin with you _might_ still get an infection.
> [post="116951"][/post]​



Yep - regardless of whether you do a post boil chill or not.... h34r: 

Cheers,
TL


----------



## Dunkel_Boy

> Yep - regardless of whether you do a post boil chill or not....



Yes, that was what I was trying to say, albeit rather clumsily...

So to summarise:

No-Steve proponents 1: Darren 0


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

I should never have posted that "Show us your Chiller " Post..... h34r:


----------



## pint of lager

This is a very interesting thread and has created lots of great posts. Please stay on topic and leave the little green men out of it.


----------



## JasonY

Well all going well I am planning my first double batch this w/end but I only have room for one brew in the fridge. So half will be chilled while the other will be pitched onto the yeastcake after about 2 weeks. Hopefully a chance to do a side by side comparison barring some slight yeast differences (the second will obviously have a lot more yeast).

Agree that this is one of the most interesting threads about on here for a while. Look forward to seeing how this turns out good or bad.


----------



## Pumpy

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I should never have posted that "Show us your Chiller " Post..... h34r:
> [post="117201"][/post]​




Stu ,That post had fell off the radar , until I revived the poor thing for you  

Pumpy


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Pumpy


I luv my chiller...

It feels hurt and rejected now :unsure: 

I will give it a big hug on Sunday


----------



## Tony

i just pulled nime out of the kettle and cleaned it up.

Ahhhh 18 meters of shiny copper.

Its impressive but i am looking forward to how the 50 liters of american brown ale in the cubes goes.

was going to brew it with WLP001 but i have something a bit "maltier" on order for it.

cheers


----------



## bindi

Bump , did this topic break the record for the most posts? <_< So far 11,376 views.
Also I have started drinking my first no chill  and it is a winner.


----------



## T.D.

I'll be bottling a no chiller LCPA clone this weekend. Tastes pretty good out of the fermenter. I have another one (American IPA) bubbling away in primary. Will be doing a Bitter this weekend with the same method, and then a double batch with a mate on the weekend after. Too easy!


----------



## JasonY

Well I had a couple of samples from my ordinary bittter that I brewed this way due to a failure in my yeast starter. Gotta say its a nice drop, probably one of my better efforts at an OB. I wont attribute it being a good beer to this method but it certainly doesn't have any bad flavours, nice and clean for a 1.038 beer (beside a little diacetyle from 1968).

For this particular one I ran it off hot into a ferry can which was placed into my temp controlled freezer at 10degC, took it about 24hrs to hit 20degC.

I also have a split batch of pils going at the moment as my ferm fridge can only hold a 30L fermenter + jerry so with that one I left the jerry out over night and then squeezed it in the freezer. I only had enough yeast to pitch in the fermenter so the jerry will be dumped on the yeast cake in about a week. Will report on how that one goes, however aside from the overnight chill I am not leaving it lying about in a shed that has a 20degC ambient swing. 

A means to an end, I will continue using my CFC but this will be handy until I get a bigger ferm fridge.


----------



## TidalPete

Bump.
Any more progress reports anyone? This is very interesting.

:beer:


----------



## T.D.

I've now brewed 7 times with the no chiller method. Having said that, I've only tasted 3 of them (the rest are in the fermenter or waiting for a spare fermenter) but they are all void of any flaws that I can see. One is OTT hoppy but that was my fault  (no chiller can't be blamed for every cockup unfortunately  ).

I seriously can't see myself using my lonely old immersion chiller any time in the near future. Only way I could see that happen is if I NEED to pitch the yeast on the same day I brew (but how often does that really happen). 

But for me, by far and away the biggest advantage is time and effort. Since I started using the method I have done two 2-brew weekends (one on each day), which would have almost killed me before. I used to be stuffed after a brew day, now I mostly feel like doing another one back to back!


----------



## dicko

I have done three brews using this method and I report that they are all just fine.
Two of them I took straight from the kettle into the gerry and into the fridge and then let them warm up before adding to the fermenter and pitching.
The other one I just left sitting on the shed floor and pitched the yeast about a week later when I was ready.
This method allows a lot of flexibility with picking a brew day, with the fermenter fridge and the yeast starters.
Cheers


----------



## Duff

Pitched two into fermenters yesterday. Tasted the wort and it was fine, now happily bubbling away, and I gave one of my kits to a commercial brewer to see what he thinks. This method enables me now to do in effect double batches with a 30L output, viz., two 15L fresh wort kit containers which I factor in a dilution addition of 5L each for a 20L batch in the fermenter when I'm ready. Couldn't be happier.

Cheers.


----------



## homebrewworld.com

This method enables me now to do in effect double batches with a 30L output, viz., two 15L fresh wort kit containers which I factor in a dilution addition of 5L each for a 20L batch in the fermenter when I'm ready. Couldn't be happier.


Duff......yep you are on a rell rippa here!

Im gonna work on this one ! :beerbang:


----------



## Kai

Every one of the brews on my new system has used the slow-chilling method and I can honestly say that I am producing some of the best beers I ever have. However, that's irrelevant to the chilling method, but slow chilling has not detracted from my beers in any way.


----------



## Tony

mine sat in the cubes for a month and is fine.

just finished firmenting

i just hope the flavourless bacteria doesnt spile it

cheers


----------



## Kai

Tony, if you experience loss of control in your nervous system please report back ASAP.


----------



## sah

My one and only no chill (not including the St Peter's purchases  ) is still in the fermenter.

I have thought a little about the botulism issue since this thread cooled down. The vacuum cans that we buy hopped (kits) and unhopped liquid malt extract in also seem to have the right conditions for anaerobic bacteria. Can anyone report one way or the other if this is tackled by the kit manufacturers? Are the sealed cans pasturised?

Scott


----------



## T.D.

Duff said:


> This method enables me now to do in effect double batches with a 30L output, viz., two 15L fresh wort kit containers which I factor in a dilution addition of 5L each for a 20L batch in the fermenter when I'm ready. Couldn't be happier.
> 
> Cheers.
> [post="122280"][/post]​



I did the exact same thing last weekend. A mate of mine who is new to brewing came over to see how AG works and we did 2 15L cubes that had dilution of 5L each factored in. My one is bubbling away at the moment and looks good.


----------



## Pumpy

Pumpy said:


> The great thing about Rays "No Chill method " is that
> 
> 1) you can mash anytime that is convienient to you
> 
> 2) ferment when your fermentation fridge is not tied up with a brew
> 
> Pumpy
> [post="114778"][/post]​



Pistol patch, credit for the 'No chill method" should go to Ray Mills who had raised this topic 'before' this very successful thread.  in Ducati Stu's post
'Natural borne chillers'  

Pumpy


----------



## Weizguy

I have bottled and about to keg the remainder of an Irish red ale (ag). The beer tastes great at ambient temp straight from the fermentor, not oxidised or infected, tainted or off in any way. My lhbs will prob give me grief about "drinking" from the fermentor, but how else do you get familiar with the beer? :beer: 

I have since done an APA (ag/ SFPA-based) and the Arrogant clone (extract + steep/ full boil) which were cooled by no-chill or a variant.

The APA had to sit for a few days until the yeast culture was ready, and the Arrogant was cooled overnight in the sink to reach 22C the next morning.

In all three cases, the wort was drained into a recently sanitsed fermentor while hot from the kettle. And the fermentor lid was screwed on, the airlock was added and topped with boiled water. I feel that some cotton wool could be added to the top of the airlock, but as long as the water in the airlock is not too high, so that no water (clean or otherwise) is drawn back into the clean wort, all should be good...or at least as good as a sealed jerry can. Another option is iodophor or betadine solution in the airlock.

Feedback re my feedback, anyone?

Seth


----------



## jayse

Weizguy said:


> snipped>
> I have bottled and about to keg the remainder of an Irish red ale (ag). The beer tastes great at ambient temp straight from the fermentor, not oxidised or infected, tainted or off in any way. My lhbs will prob give me grief about "drinking" from the fermentor, but how else do you get familiar with the beer? :beer:
> 
> [post="122461"][/post]​




I'd say any LHBS that gives you grief about drinking from the fermentor is a tool and not the handy kind, something like a spanner that doesn't fit any known nut. h34r: 

Drinking from the fermentor is manditory! :chug: 

Alcohol fueled brewtality.
Jayse


----------



## Ken Man Do

Seth, use a big piece of Iodophor-soaked cotton in the airlock to act as a sterile filter for the air that will enter the fermenter during cool-down. Pack it down, but not too firmly. I always do this with the starters I make in my 6 liter Erlenmeyer.

As a test, I have a .5 liter jar of wort sitting on a shelf that is now 16 months old. It has a cotton filter and the wort still looks perfect. The cotton has long since dried, but I believe it is the fibers that trap any bacteria or spores from entering. It creates what I believe is called a "treacherous path" in the microbe biz.

I've also used this method successfully on autoclaved mushroom spawn.

And as I mentioned, it also makes moot the anaerobic condition concerns.


----------



## SJW

After reading this long post I thought it be best to give it a crack. So, I brewed a Vienna Lager and drained kettle to 25 litre cube after whirl pooling. A week later, today, after I got back some room in my fridge I pitched with a Wyeast 2278 starter and all is swell. No noticable cold break but I must say if time is tight on brew day i cant see why not.
The way I see it, if it works for ESB it should work for me, and so far so good.

STEPHEN


----------



## Tony

I did try one of the St peters/ESB fresh worts a while back and dont remember seeing much break in the cube.

I have done the "no chill" method twice now and both times, both of the cubes (2 x 25 liter cubes for my 50 liter batches) have had a lot of break in them.

Its like an inch deep yeast cake.

I run it gently through a 20 micron nylon filter bag and this catches most of it.

Curious....

cheers


----------



## AndrewQLD

Pumpy said:


> Agreed POL
> 
> 
> It works well for me Stephen and the wort is lovely and clear as all the trub has settled out .
> 
> I somehow feel in more control of the process.
> 
> Pumpy
> [post="123180"][/post]​




Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## NRB

I did my first "no-chiller" extract + grains brew several weeks ago and pitched it yesterday. There was next-to-no break material and the wort was very cloudy.

For me the technique allowed little time saving in one way (as I use a CFWC), but also allowed me to brew when I had time and not when fermenter space was available. I brewed a couple of days apart but only have room for 1 fermenter in my dead bar fridge.

Nothing had spoilt the wort though, so it seems on face value that the technique works for me. The proof will be in the tasting.

I like the idea of filling multiple cubes and adding top up water when pitching and formulating a recipe to allow for this shouldn't be too taxing. I managed to fit 17L into the ESB fresh wort container.


----------



## Kai

AndrewQLD said:


> Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?



It's possible, but it's a waste of resources to chill the wort then heat it again.


----------



## Millet Man

Tony said:


> I have done the "no chill" method twice now and both times, both of the cubes (2 x 25 liter cubes for my 50 liter batches) have had a lot of break in them.
> 
> Its like an inch deep yeast cake.
> 
> [post="123196"][/post]​



My first no chill is still sitting on the shelf (brewed 6 weeks ago), I'm going to pitch it in the next week or so but I was keen to see how it stores for a couple of months before fermenting. :unsure: 

My second no chill was brewed on Anzac day and I pitched it today as two brews, a 1.045 using US-56 and a diluted 1.028 using S-04. See if I can make a 5% and a 3% with different characters from the same wort.

In both batches the cubes have as much break as I normally get using the CFC.

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## Pumpy

> Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="123201"][/post]​



I suppose they could,

I think they are allowing it to cool to 80C during that time the trub would drop out well ,then packing when it is a bit safer to work with .

They probably build in a higher proportion of wastage in the cost .

But then again you dont see `any `trub at all in there kits .

pumpy


----------



## Weizguy

Pumpy said:


> But then again you dont see `any `trub at all in there kits .
> 
> pumpy
> [post="123252"][/post]​


Pumpy, although it's been over 12 months since I bought an ESB kit, I have seen trub in all the kits I bought. There wasn't much trub in most, but the Belgian jerry can that I kept for over 12 months had the largest amount. The beer still came out quite clear.

Has anyone noted that no-chill produces a cloudy beer, or is it just my technique? (Hmm, maybe that's why I stick to weizens where cloudiness enhances the beer).



Ken Man Do said:


> Seth, use a big piece of Iodophor-soaked cotton in the airlock to act as a sterile filter for the air that will enter the fermenter during cool-down. Pack it down, but not too firmly. I always do this with the starters I make in my 6 liter Erlenmeyer.
> 
> As a test, I have a .5 liter jar of wort sitting on a shelf that is now 16 months old. It has a cotton filter and the wort still looks perfect. The cotton has long since dried, but I believe it is the fibers that trap any bacteria or spores from entering. It creates what I believe is called a "treacherous path" in the microbe biz.
> 
> I've also used this method successfully on autoclaved mushroom spawn.
> 
> And as I mentioned, it also makes moot the anaerobic condition concerns.
> [post="122606"][/post]​



From my Univerity daze, I recall that the term you may be looking for is "tortuous" path.

Sounds like the result demonstrates the effectiveness of the technique. May I be permitted to know why you have a wort sample that is so old, just hanging about?

In the Biology lab at Newcastle Uni, they used to sterilise media in a flask with a cotton plug in the neck, and a piece of aluminium foil folded and squeezed around the neck of the bottle. Chuck the lot in an autoclave and cool before use. Too easy, with the right equipment.

Seeing that I don't have access to their autoclave (and glassware), I'll be looking seriously at the adaptation you have given me here, with maybe some alfoil "insurance".

Sweet!
Seth out


----------



## Ken Man Do

Weizguy said:


> Ken Man Do said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seth, use a big piece of Iodophor-soaked cotton in the airlock to act as a sterile filter for the air that will enter the fermenter during cool-down. Pack it down, but not too firmly. I always do this with the starters I make in my 6 liter Erlenmeyer.
> 
> As a test, I have a .5 liter jar of wort sitting on a shelf that is now 16 months old. It has a cotton filter and the wort still looks perfect. The cotton has long since dried, but I believe it is the fibers that trap any bacteria or spores from entering. It creates what I believe is called a "treacherous path" in the microbe biz.
> 
> I've also used this method successfully on autoclaved mushroom spawn.
> 
> And as I mentioned, it also makes moot the anaerobic condition concerns.
> [post="122606"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From my Univerity daze, I recall that the term you may be looking for is "tortuous" path.
> 
> Sounds like the result demonstrates the effectiveness of the technique. May I be permitted to know why you have a wort sample that is so old, just hanging about?
> 
> In the Biology lab at Newcastle Uni, they used to sterilise media in a flask with a cotton plug in the neck, and a piece of aluminium foil folded and squeezed around the neck of the bottle. Chuck the lot in an autoclave and cool before use. Too easy, with the right equipment.
> 
> Seeing that I don't have access to their autoclave (and glassware), I'll be looking seriously at the adaptation you have given me here, with maybe some alfoil "insurance".
> 
> Sweet!
> Seth out
> [post="123275"][/post]​
Click to expand...


Well, ok, tortuous it is. But I should get partial credit! :lol:

The wort sample I mentioned was "canned" as a test on 12-19-2004. Here it is today:






The lid has a tiny nail hole in it, with a stub of small copper tubing epoxied over it. That's where the cotton gets stuffed.

Also, this wort was not pressure cooked. I figured pressure cooking is to kill botulism spores, and seeing as how this wort is in an aerobic environment, the spores aren't a worry. I believe this wort to still be in a sterile condition.


----------



## Darren

Ken Man Do said:


> Well, ok, tortuous it is. But I should get partial credit! :lol:
> 
> The wort sample I mentioned was "canned" as a test on 12-19-2004. Here it is today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lid has a tiny nail hole in it, with a stub of small copper tubing epoxied over it. That's where the cotton gets stuffed.
> 
> Also, this wort was not pressure cooked. I figured pressure cooking is to kill botulism spores, and seeing as how this wort is in an aerobic environment, the spores aren't a worry. I believe this wort to still be in a sterile condition.
> [post="123394"][/post]​




Hey Ken man,
Not infected but oxidised yes! Wort does not store at all well in the presence of oxygen.

cheers
Darren


----------



## T.D.

Weizguy said:


> Has anyone noted that no-chill produces a cloudy beer,
> 
> 
> [post="123275"][/post]​



funnily enough, if anything I have been getting clearer beers after switching to no chiller. My first ever no chiller beer (which was ages back and was only done because I was brewing at a mate's house and had to get the wort home) stands as one of the best beers I have made (in my eyes  ), from both a clarity and general quality perspective.


----------



## bindi

Must agree with T.D.  .


----------



## Pumpy

T.D. said:


> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone noted that no-chill produces a cloudy beer,
> 
> 
> [post="123275"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> funnily enough, if anything I have been getting clearer beers after switching to no chiller. My first ever no chiller beer (which was ages back and was only done because I was brewing at a mate's house and had to get the wort home) stands as one of the best beers I have made (in my eyes  ), from both a clarity and general quality perspective.
> [post="123555"][/post]​
Click to expand...


I have never had such clear wort to brew , "everyone is a winner " I am converted 

Pumpy


----------



## Ash in Perth

My opinion:
(please excuse the fact that I havent read 23 pages of posts so it may not be new)

The faster the wort is chilled the better. At high temperature, chemical reactions are more frequent because the reaction kinetics are sped up. The cold break may not form correctly. The faster the chill, the more cold break precipitates out of solutions and flocculates. Cold break is about 50% protein, about 20% polyphenols and the majority of the rest is carbohydrates. remaining proteins can result in a hazy beer, which although may not be bad is not true to style for some beers. these and the polyphenols (which could stay as free phenols if the chilling is too slow) could have an adverse effect on the taste of the beer.

There is also the issue that slow chilling gives more time for microbes to get in and colonise your brew. if it is sealed when boiling hot then chilled this shouldnt be a problem.

This is all theoretical, if your own method works for you, dont change it. chemistry is never as simple as it seems and there could be other factors involved that i dont know about.

Large commerical and most modern microbreweries use counter flow type chillers for efficiency (re-cycling heat), saving time (obvious) and the reasons stated above. On the other hand, some of the worlds finest beers such as well known trappist breweries (except chimay and westmalle at least) and lambic breweries allow the wort to chill slowly in large shallow 'trays'.

Cheers! Ash


----------



## Uncle Fester

Ash in Perth said:


> My opinion:
> (please excuse the fact that I havent read 23 pages of posts so it may not be new)
> 
> The faster the wort is chilled the better. At high temperature, chemical reactions are more frequent because the reaction kinetics are sped up. The cold break may not form correctly. The faster the chill, the more cold break precipitates out of solutions and flocculates. Cold break is about 50% protein, about 20% polyphenols and the majority of the rest is carbohydrates. remaining proteins can result in a hazy beer, which although may not be bad is not true to style for some beers. these and the polyphenols (which could stay as free phenols if the chilling is too slow) could have an adverse effect on the taste of the beer.
> 
> There is also the issue that slow chilling gives more time for microbes to get in and colonise your brew. if it is sealed when boiling hot then chilled this shouldnt be a problem.
> 
> This is all theoretical, if your own method works for you, dont change it. chemistry is never as simple as it seems and there could be other factors involved that i dont know about.
> 
> Large commerical and most modern microbreweries use counter flow type chillers for efficiency (re-cycling heat), saving time (obvious) and the reasons stated above. On the other hand, some of the worlds finest beers such as well known trappist breweries (except chimay and westmalle at least) and lambic breweries allow the wort to chill slowly in large shallow 'trays'.
> 
> Cheers! Ash
> [post="125225"][/post]​



Ash,
It appears that the beer that results from the no-chill method is clearer than the equivalent beer that has been chilled. Don't ask me why, I'm not a Bio-chemist, just going on the reported results.

As far as commercial brewerys force chilling their product, that is probably so they can get it into the bottle and onto the shelf quicker. How ever many thousand litres that they do in a batch would take a considerable time to cool to ambient temperature. Idle equipment is wasted money.

The potential for contamination has been done to death. It appears that there is no more risk to the wort, than there is to a commercial wort, Kit, or Kg of LME. All are vacuum sealed, which the no chill wort is as well, as long as it is placed in the container at 80 or so degrees.

At the end of the day, as more and more results come in, it appears that this process does not detract at all from the quality of the final product.

Of course, the overall quality of sanitation within your brewery is far more significant than the potential of a high heat/high sugar tolerant anaerobic infection getting into your wort.

M


----------



## Ash in Perth

Most of what you said i had already mentioned. And if it works for you, do it. chemistry is never straightr forward so results often come out different form theory.

Personally right now i use the no chiller method simpl because i have no chiller. but becasue im brewing smaller batches my brews chill in about an hour in a tub of ice water.

Cheers! Ash


----------



## pint of lager

Ash in Perth, take the time to go through all the pages, there is alot of very good information and links researched and posted. It will broaden your understanding of brewing. DMS, hot break and Pastuerisation are subjects covered. I understand on dialup it may take a while, but there are not many pictures to chew up bandwidth.

Cooling your wort in a chilled bath is a well known method and does not qualify under the no chill method. No chill means waiting for the wort to chill by air temp only and also encompasses leaving it for an extended period from days to weeks to months before aerating and pitching the yeast.


----------



## Millet Man

pint of lager said:


> ... leaving it for an extended period from days to weeks to months before aerating and pitching the yeast.
> [post="125269"][/post]​



For interests sake I am just about to bottle my first no chill, it was a split batch with half being chilled and brewed straight away and the other half put in a cube for 6 weeks in the garage at 10-20C. It was only a low gravity brew at 1.032 as well.

I am drinking the CFC'd half of the batch now and it is quite nice.

The "no chill" part of the batch was about 5-10% trub in the cube but on fermenting (which proceeded with no problems) there was pretty much only yeast residue in the primary so I can only imagine that the trub was consumed in the process.

There was less trub in the primary than I normally get with the CFC but that is probably because I let the "no chill" sit longer after whirlpooling and was more diligent to not let any hot break into the cube.

The "no chill" half is crystal clear (it was after primary) and tasting good.

So 6 weeks in the cube at 1.032 OG worked fine, anyone pushed the boundary any further?

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## Gerard_M

Millet Man said:


> So 6 weeks in the cube at 1.032 OG worked fine, anyone pushed the boundary any further?
> [post="125304"][/post]​



I have 2 x ESB Fresh Wort Kits (Bock) from last year that my lazy mate hasn't been able to brew yet. I will brew them next week.
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Ray_Mills

Hi
I have pushed the boundary to 4 months
Not a problem.
Ray


----------



## Tony

just cracked a keg full of american brown ale that was in no chill cubes for 4 to 6 weeks.

Its still a bit flat but tasted great already.

I will report back about haze but the first pull looked good..

all in all i find it a great way to free up my weekends.

I can brew 100 liters in a day where i only used to make 20 and had to brew almost every weeend which means less days brewing and more relaxing 

cheers


----------



## Pumpy

Tony said:


> just cracked a keg full of american brown ale that was in no chill cubes for 4 to 6 weeks.
> 
> Its still a bit flat but tasted great already.
> 
> [post="125362"][/post]​



Still a bit flat eh! Tony then its good enough for me .

 Pumpy


----------



## AnthonyMac

Tony said:


> just cracked a keg full of american brown ale that was in no chill cubes for 4 to 6 weeks.
> 
> Its still a bit flat but tasted great already.
> 
> I will report back about haze but the first pull looked good..
> 
> all in all i find it a great way to free up my weekends.
> 
> I can brew 100 liters in a day where i only used to make 20 and had to brew almost every weeend which means less days brewing and more relaxing
> 
> cheers
> [post="125362"][/post]​



My first try at the no chill method which i will report back on soon, but TOny, you are obviously a wee slight of a piss head and should drink less.
AMac


----------



## Jazzafish

A friend of mine still hasn't fermented his Braidwood Project.... surely that will be a test when he gets around to it!


----------



## Tony

what makes you say that 

Ive been called worse 

cheers


----------



## KoNG

Have any of you regular "no Chillers" (i'm only at no: 3) tried racking the wort into your cube onto your aroma hops.? i was thinking of giving this a go. i gues it will give the the wort more time on the hops than if you whirlpool them out. then they wil just be 'racked off' (excuse pun) at fermenting time.
Any thoughts or issues...?


----------



## Jim_Levet

Kong
I have placed some Cascade flowers in a large hop bag & put it in a 20 litre cube. Dumped the boiling hot wort in on top. It was left for 2 weeks. It only lasted 1 day in the keg! The results speak for themselves really!!
Great flavour & aroma from the Cascades, it was a beer that was enjoyed by both beer snobs & VB slobs. I would like to do an IPA using this method, with some Fuggles plugs.
James


----------



## KoNG

Good stuff jim, a BIG handfull of amarillo in the cube for my next APA it is then..


----------



## Jye

> I have placed some Cascade flowers in a large hop bag & put it in a 20 litre cube. Dumped the boiling hot wort in on top. It was left for 2 weeks. It only lasted 1 day in the keg! The results speak for themselves really!!





> a BIG handfull of amarillo in the cube for my next APA it is then..



You talked me into it  ... next brew day will be an APA and IPA, I wont chill the IPA and will chuck 90g of Amarillo into the cube.

Mmmmmm can smell it already


----------



## KoNG

agreed Jye. it will be hard not to unscrew the cap for a sneaky sniff while it sits waiting prior to fermenting.


----------



## T.D.

That's a great idea Kong. If you used flowers you could pour the wort through a sieve into the fermenter and keep them separate. Perhaps a couple of US Cascade plugs or something. Would be sort of like a hopback but not.

I will try this (probably with amarillo as well given my soon to be large stock of it :super: ) for my next APA too.


----------



## Duff

Very cool idea, would beat dry hopping in secondary.


----------



## bindi

KoNG said:


> Have any of you regular "no Chillers" (i'm only at no: 3) tried racking the wort into your cube onto your aroma hops.? i was thinking of giving this a go. i gues it will give the the wort more time on the hops than if you whirlpool them out. then they wil just be 'racked off' (excuse pun) at fermenting time.
> Any thoughts or issues...?
> [post="125456"][/post]​



Have done this for the last 3 "no chill" brews  and will be doing it again today, the mash is resting as I type. 
AG # 16  now double batching thanks to the no chill method..


----------



## T.D.

Bindi, 

Have you found any differences compared to a standard flameout addition?


----------



## KoNG

T.D. said:


> That's a great idea Kong. If you used flowers you could pour the wort through a sieve into the fermenter and keep them separate. Perhaps a couple of US Cascade plugs or something. Would be sort of like a hopback but not.
> 
> I will try this (probably with amarillo as well given my soon to be large stock of it :super: ) for my next APA too.
> [post="125514"][/post]​



yeh, i'm just bummed now that my next brew is a robust porter, alot of aroma hops weren't on the menu! maybe the july xmas case English Bitter will get a fistfull of Styrian flowers in the cube..... yum :chug:


----------



## Kai

My last brew (on big brew day last weekend) I ended up racking the hops (and most of the trub) to my cube, including a large flameout addition of Glacier. Partly because I wanted the bitterness to increase slightly, and partly because I had exactly 17L of high gravity wort and one 17L cube to put it in & didn't want to waste any.

I still haven't pitched the yeast in this one, it's currently residing in my fridge. When I do I'm interested to see if the hop flavour and bitterness are higher than expected.


----------



## Boots

Like Kai, i did a no chill brew on big brew day, and mine is currently sitting on the laundry floor.

What are the opinions on long term storage at room temp vs at fridge temps?

I know the ESB / Grumpy's wort kits were stored at room temps at the shops and stuff. The only thing i can think that would suffer over an extended prefermentation storage (assuming no infection, proper handling etc) would be the reduction in bitterness, and hop impact etc that you get with all beers over time.

I can't see any major problems leaving it at room temp, but should i be finding fridge space?


----------



## bindi

T.D. said:


> Bindi,
> 
> Have you found any differences compared to a standard flameout addition?
> [post="125624"][/post]​



Not sure yet <_< only used the same hop twice, that being saaz and to my taste it had a little [subtle at best] more flovour, drinking one now and it is good <_< needs more done to really know. I am pleased with the results so far.

Love this broadband , he he, only did it today; Off topic I know


----------



## Kai

Boots, the only reason mine is in the fridge is because I had the free space to slip it in. If it was in the carport it would only be a few degrees warmer at the moment.


----------



## bindi

Today I have done a mash and chilled it , it is a recipe I have used with with the no chill method and have been pleased with the results using this method  everything was the same, grain bill yeast etc etc, so I will see if I get the same pleasing results.


----------



## T.D.

The beers I have made with the no chiller method have never been more cloudy than beers I have chilled using an immersion chiller, and I would say on average they are actually a fair bit clearer. I know the theory says that haze should increase if you chill slowly, but I simply haven't seen a single bit of evidence to that effect in practice. The proof is in the pudding. In fact I am drinking a pilsner right now that has been in the keg for only 2 days (tonight is the first night of drinking). Even the first couple of glasses out of the keg were surprisingly clear.


----------



## shonky

Planning on doing a double batch of AG pilsner at the weekend and am considering using the no-chill method for the second 40lt batch and keeping it until I have more fridge space and yeast to ferment it.

Reading on he recent DMS post that lighter coloured beers especially are prone to DMS.

I'm brewing this for my wedding in August, and at a push, can chill and ferment both batches together (yeast might be a problem).

Any no-chillers out there brewed any pilsners? Can you detect DMS? Are the results in? Love to hear from you.

I'm planning on using 90% JW Pils malt with 7% munich and 3% carapils.

Cheers
shonky


----------



## Darren

As I have always said it is a RISK of infection (dumped beer). 
Plus, chill and add yeast it is beer next time you look at it. 
Whats an extra 15 minutes to a brewday?
Can't see why you would do it unless you don't have a chiller.

cheers

Darren



shonky said:


> Planning on doing a double batch of AG pilsner at the weekend and am considering using the no-chill method for the second 40lt batch and keeping it until I have more fridge space and yeast to ferment it.
> 
> Reading on he recent DMS post that lighter coloured beers especially are prone to DMS.
> 
> I'm brewing this for my wedding in August, and at a push, can chill and ferment both batches together (yeast might be a problem).
> 
> Any no-chillers out there brewed any pilsners? Can you detect DMS? Are the results in? Love to hear from you.
> 
> I'm planning on using 90% JW Pils malt with 7% munich and 3% carapils.
> 
> Cheers
> shonky



Shonky,
Can you keep an ale yeast cool?
Steam beer with wyeast 2112 and northern brewer hops (30-35 IBU) for bittering would please the masses at a wedding. Certainly worth a go with half of the beer.
It's also a very forgiving style.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Ray_Mills

Darren
I really dont know where the infection will come from, this method eliminated my infection problem. 
Ray


----------



## Paul H

What vessels are you guys using to hold the wort?

Cheers
Paul


----------



## shonky

Cheers Darren.

Risk of infection? Possibly but v. low from other peoples responses. Before going AG in Dec I brewed Matt D's wort kits for a number of years and don't think I ever had an infected batch.

I do have a counter flow chiller, but it's not time that's the issue. Fridge space is at a premium, my mate might just be able to squeeze it in . Other issue is yeast. I'm stepping up a 2lt starter WLP800 (has just fermented out, started it on Fri) tonight to 4lt and plan on chilling this down to pitching temp - about 10c.

My chiller will probably get the wort down to about 19 (batch 1 at least), I then plan on chilling this in fermenting fridge overnight before aerating and pitching slurry only on Sun.

As I'm pitching cold, and recommendations seem to be to pitch plenty of slurry for a pils, I don't believe I'll have sufficient yeast for the other 40Lt. (I guess saflager is an option though)

As for the steam beer idea it's definately a good one. I'm going to have 3 beers on. About 60 Lt of Pils, 30 Lt of an imperial oat-meal stout and 60 Lt of something else. Was going to be an ale of some kind.

Want to get 80 lt of pils done this weekend though as I have the right malts and needs to be lager for a period.

I know I've drifted OT a little but wanted to explain my dilema.

Cheers


----------



## bindi

20 and 25Lt food grade cubes work for me.


----------



## Duff

I thought I'd post a couple of pics of the no chill beers. IMO I find them to be much clearer than beers which I have previously chilled, whether by immersion or CFC. The light beer is my light lager (2.9%) WLP838, straight from primary to keg last week. No CC'ing as I simply couldn't have been bothered, about 4 pints from the keg thus far. The darker beer is my bastardised Skunkfart Ale/LCPA version. WLP009 (6%), again no secondary, primary for 3 weeks and straight to keg. About 10L remaining in the keg.

Both beers taste wise (to me) are no different than to chilling. Folks in the upcoming case swap for NSW will also be drinking a no chill beer so will see what they think.

Cheers.


----------



## Jye

The Skunkfart looks good :chug:


----------



## Steve Lacey

Duff, that lager looks anything but clear, mate, especially when you see how pale it is. I don't think it is the photo because the skunkfart looks fairly bright...

Anway, I wasn't really concerned about the clarity issue, as plenty of people had declared it to be not having any practical effect...what about that sweetness thing?


----------



## Duff

That was my point though Steve, no secondary, cc'ing, polyclar, gelatine, filtering, pick up tube shortening, alinging of the planets, etc. It will no doubt drop bright alot faster. As far as sweetness I can't taste any difference, but I'm no BJCP expert. Just my experiences with it, that's all.


----------



## T.D.

Duff,

I too will be submitting a no-chiller beer to the NSW Xmas in July Case. Its been bottled for only 4 days and I can already see quite clearly through the bottle, which is pretty good compared to any other beers I have brewed with either the immersion or no chiller method.

I don't think EVERY no chiller beer will turn out perfectly clear, just the same way not every fast-chilled beer will turn out clear. There are a ridiculous number of other factors affecting clarity than just the chilling speed. When I used my immersion chiller, I did the exact same thing every time, and some beers came out crystal clear, and others had a stubborn haze in them.


----------



## shonky

shonky said:


> Planning on doing a double batch of AG pilsner at the weekend and am considering using the no-chill method for the second 40lt batch and keeping it until I have more fridge space and yeast to ferment it.
> 
> Reading on he recent DMS post that lighter coloured beers especially are prone to DMS.
> 
> I'm brewing this for my wedding in August, and at a push, can chill and ferment both batches together (yeast might be a problem).
> 
> Any no-chillers out there brewed any pilsners? Can you detect DMS? Are the results in? Love to hear from you.
> 
> I'm planning on using 90% JW Pils malt with 7% munich and 3% carapils.
> 
> Cheers
> shonky




Seeing as I've not heard from anyone who has carried out a no-chill pils who wants to comment on the results (esp in regards to DMS) I'm opting for chilling both batches.

Bumped to give this one more chance (need to make another yeast starter with my saflager yeast tonight otherwise)

Cheers

Jon


----------



## T.D.

I've brewed a no-chiller pilsner. It most definitely does not have DMS.

Sorry for not replying, I did see your question, but since I had mentioned in a post not far from yours that I was drinking this pils and I was very happy with it, I just assumed you would have seen that and deduced that it did not have DMS.

Go for it, I have seen absolutely NO evidence from my brewing to suggest you will get DMS. :beer:


----------



## MAH

shonky said:


> Any no-chillers out there brewed any pilsners? Can you detect DMS? Are the results in? Love to hear from you.
> 
> Cheers
> shonky




Made a "no-chill" pilsner by default before, when my pick-up got clogged and I couldn't run the wort through my CFC, so I just to siphoned the whole kettle out into a jerry-can which was sealed and left to cool over the next couple of days, then stuck in the fridge for 24 hours to bring it right doen to pitching temps.

It was 95% Pils and 5% Carapils, with 100% H.Hersbrucker.

No DMS problem at all.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## T.D.

Is there no way you can get your hands on another sachet of Saflager? My recent pilsnwas done with 34/70 and it has turned out great! If you do one batch with your liquid yeast, and then the other with 2 sachets of 34/70 it would be a great comparison too.

I gather you definitely want to brew them both at the same time, but if doing them back to back is an option then why not pitch the 2nd cube of wort onto the yeast cake of the first brew? I did this with my pils and it worked a treat! That way you get the quivalent of a huge starter, and you don't need to worry about the other yeast option at all. This is one of the real benefits of no chiller - you can just leave the cube of wort until you decide to rack the beer in the fermenter and then just throw the cube of wort on the left over yeast cake! 

Anyway, just another option...


----------



## shonky

Thanks for helping me narrow in on one option TD  

I like your line of thinking though.

Cheers, that doesn't seem like a bad option.

As for the additional saflager that's another bloody option - I might have to see if Gerards got any.

Decisions decisions...

thanks


----------



## Jye

Thanks Dicko, I will probably end up putting some in the fermenter, but the volume of it in the cube really surprised me.


----------



## Borret

Jye said:


> I will be fermenting my first no chill beer today and was surprised to see the amount of trub in the bottom... I did add 90g of Amarillo to the cube but I still think this is a lot :blink:
> 
> View attachment 7548



Hi Jye,

Has that cube been stirred up since it cooled down or just sat in the one spot that it's photographed in. 
I only aske becasue if it hasn't been disturbed then the small thermal currents that would be formed by it cooling may have caused a larger percentage of the break to precipitate out down the walls. This after all is where the cooling (or heat being lost) is coming from so would make sense if it's building up around the edges. Also the slightly cooler down flowing wort at the wall would be more likely dumping anything in suspension at outer areas.
Does that sort of make sense?

On the otherhand if it's been stirred up since then it should have all settled again uniformly on the bottom and you can disguard my questionable theory :lol: 

Cheers

Brent


----------



## Jye

Good point Brent.

The cube sat on the garage floor for a week until I was ready to pitch and it looked like that. I lifted it onto the bench and tilted it to try and get some of the trub away from the tap, this didnt help very much and I still got a fair bit in the first litre. I should have taken a pic when cleaning the cube because there was shit load of hops.


----------



## Ken Man Do

I brewed a pilsner yesterday, and tried the no-chill method for the first time. I pitched tonight, 32.5 hours after flameout.

I took a sample of the wort and tried my best to detect something off. To my taste buds and nose, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this lager at this point. Everything seems perfect!

I have a question though. Is this a good time or bad time in terms of being able to detect DMS? If it's gonna be there, it's gonna be there now as a result of the slow cooling, right?


----------



## warrenlw63

Borret said:


> Jye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will be fermenting my first no chill beer today and was surprised to see the amount of trub in the bottom... I did add 90g of Amarillo to the cube but I still think this is a lot :blink:
> 
> View attachment 7548
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jye,
> 
> Has that cube been stirred up since it cooled down or just sat in the one spot that it's photographed in.
> I only aske becasue if it hasn't been disturbed then the small thermal currents that would be formed by it cooling may have caused a larger percentage of the break to precipitate out down the walls. This after all is where the cooling (or heat being lost) is coming from so would make sense if it's building up around the edges. Also the slightly cooler down flowing wort at the wall would be more likely dumping anything in suspension at outer areas.
> Does that sort of make sense?
> 
> On the otherhand if it's been stirred up since then it should have all settled again uniformly on the bottom and you can disguard my questionable theory :lol:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Brent
Click to expand...



I think what our little spuddy friend is trying to say is it looks roughly like 90g of hops on the bottom of your cube. A self-inflicted injury. :blink: 

Warren -


----------



## pint of lager

The "No Chiller" thread is becoming very unwieldy with so many posts. To try and make it more managable and readable, I have transferred some of the posts to this thread. It has taken a few hours to sort the posts out.

Have broken the original thread up and left all the pro's and con's posts in the original, and transferred the posts that cover people who have tried the no chill method to this thread.

Please post here when discussing your no chill brews and leave the original No Chiller thread for discussions as to the pro's and con's.


----------



## barneyhanway

I've just bottled my second-ever-partial APA, both were no chiller'd.
The first is gone, took me less than 3 weeks to go through it (with only a little help from friends), starting after only a week in the bottle. I'm a thirsty boy and it was too good to stop. Lots of fresh cascade flavour and aroma.
Theres lots of new things I tried in these partials (well, partial mashing for one) so I can't really put the vast improvments down to any one thing, but there was nothing detrimental arising from no-chilling. The beer was clear as anything. Second batch has been in the bottle 3 days and although it started quite cloudy its now completely clear. Could read the paper through it. this one won't last either, especially now that I'm all out of batch one.
*adds another fermenter to must have list*
*and a 25l cube or 2*


----------



## Paul H

Guys,
A what temp do you rack the hot wort into the conditioning cube?

Cheers
Paul


----------



## Pumpy

Paul H said:


> Guys,
> A what temp do you rack the hot wort into the conditioning cube?
> 
> Cheers
> Paul



I have been doing it between 80C-90C

Pumpy


----------



## Weizguy

Oops, no-chill disaster. :lol: 

My Altbier sat quietly in the 20l square jerry for about 8 days (awaiting a free fermentor and fridge). Then I moved it, as it was getting in the way. About 4 days later, I had a look where it was sitting, surrounded by freshly cleaned 500ml bottles.

Holey Dooley! the cube was almost spherical!  
Would've taken photos but "the Dragon" took the camera with her when she went to visit rellos.

I released the pressure by opening the cap. It hissed and then burbled/dribbled all over the carpet for about 20 minutes. Best to do that, than to explode while I moved it. There's still about 5 litres in the jerry, and it tastes quite clean, so I chucked a 500ml German ale yeast into the container. What the hell, if it's stuffed, I won't make it worse.
The jerry can has some serious stretch marks, where it is is very thin, but has returned to a (mostly) cubic shape after 5 days since the incident.

The no-chill 25 l batch of Bitter that I made a few days before is quite OK and was pitched tonight.

The carpet is drying out after I washed the grubby spot.

As Bill sez, "All's well that ends well".

Seth out (to hook up a keg of NNL freshwort sparkling blonde ale, kegged tonight)


----------



## Trent

I've never made a no chiller brew, not sure if I ever will. I was a little dubious about the whole DMS thing, though, to be quite honest, as I seem to be particularly sensitive to it. I have recently tried TD's boston lager, and Niftys california common, both from the NSW july case, and both made with the no chill, and I couldnt detect any DMS in either of those beers. Actually, they were both excellent. Possibly, as others have pointed out, Aussie malt has hardly any of the DMS precursor (cant recall exact amount), so IMO, if the no chill method works for you, I think that DMS is a very negligible concern, FWIW. Just had to say that, as an unbiased bystander!
All the best
Trent


----------



## Pumpy

My chiller has been in mothballs for months now .

but then I am a 'no chiller' fan .

I have a row of 'Pumpy's Fresh wort kits' I can choose from and ferment at my wish.

Now let me see ther is bitter and bitter and yes bitter and Brown ale and another Brown ale .

One day I will give my beer a fancy name !!!

Pumpy


----------



## Bizarre

Pumpy said:


> My chiller has been in mothballs for months now .
> 
> but then I am a 'no chiller' fan .
> 
> I have a row of 'Pumpy's Fresh wort kits' I can choose from and ferment at my wish.
> 
> Now let me see ther is bitter and bitter and yes bitter and Brown ale and another Brown ale .
> 
> One day I will give my beer a fancy name !!!
> 
> Pumpy



Do you ship over to the west Pumpy? LOL - just thinking it may cut down on my work


----------



## DJR

Weizguy said:


> Oops, no-chill disaster. :lol:
> Holey Dooley! the cube was almost spherical!



Are you saying the wort got infected or got hit with some wild yeast in the cube? Was this a cube that had been used for fermenting duties previously?


----------



## Pumpy

Bizarre said:


> Pumpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> My chiller has been in mothballs for months now .
> 
> but then I am a 'no chiller' fan .
> 
> I have a row of 'Pumpy's Fresh wort kits' I can choose from and ferment at my wish.
> 
> Now let me see ther is bitter and bitter and yes bitter and Brown ale and another Brown ale .
> 
> One day I will give my beer a fancy name !!!
> 
> Pumpy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you ship over to the west Pumpy? LOL - just thinking it may cut down on my work
Click to expand...


Ha!Ha! Biz I find I make more beer than I can drink but I am trying to improve on that part of my Performance .

Pumpy


----------



## Weizguy

DJR said:


> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, no-chill disaster. :lol:
> Holey Dooley! the cube was almost spherical!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying the wort got infected or got hit with some wild yeast in the cube? Was this a cube that had been used for fermenting duties previously?
Click to expand...


The cube was from a commercial fresh wort. I'd left some small amount of (the original/purchased) wort in the jerry, after pouring the contents onto a yeast cake of W1318. The container was left for a couple of days (with the lid on) before I rinsed it out. Just prior to addition of the hot wort, I added 5 litres of hot water and a large spoon of Pink stain remover to the jerry, and capped it and shook the heck out of it. Then I rinsed twice: once with hot , then once with cold water. The hot wort was above 80C, according to my Mashmaster thermometer when it was siphoned to the clean jerry. The cap was screwed on, and there was only a small amount of head/handle-space.

I'm unsure as to what happened. The wort tasted very neutral after the event, even after a good 75% of it had escaped the jerry and became one with the carpet.

I thought that I had taken all reasonable precautions. The flavour of the wort did not suggest wild yeast or bacterial infection, so I dunno.
I just mentioned this here, not to embarass my self, but to remind others that things can go astray, and it pays to check your jerrys regularly when using the no-chill method.

Seth out


----------



## lou

I rinse with water and then soak in idophor for an hr immeadiately after emptying and then soak again for a short time before using again. I then drain and let dry. 

No infections yet

last mash i was decanting in to the cube and I lost the siphon in my tap - left 2 lt behind : (

tried to restart it - put a tube on the end and sucked - started then stopped but I think my 'suck tube' fell in. 

was woried about infection but after 2 weeks still have a vacuum in the cube no worries- no infection

lou


----------



## Darren

Those handles on the jerrys would be impossible to sanitise i reckon

cheers

Darren




Weizguy said:


> DJR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, no-chill disaster. :lol:
> Holey Dooley! the cube was almost spherical!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying the wort got infected or got hit with some wild yeast in the cube? Was this a cube that had been used for fermenting duties previously?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The cube was from a commercial fresh wort. I'd left some small amount of (the original/purchased) wort in the jerry, after pouring the contents onto a yeast cake of W1318. The container was left for a couple of days (with the lid on) before I rinsed it out. Just prior to addition of the hot wort, I added 5 litres of hot water and a large spoon of Pink stain remover to the jerry, and capped it and shook the heck out of it. Then I rinsed twice: once with hot , then once with cold water. The hot wort was above 80C, according to my Mashmaster thermometer when it was siphoned to the clean jerry. The cap was screwed on, and there was only a small amount of head/handle-space.
> 
> I'm unsure as to what happened. The wort tasted very neutral after the event, even after a good 75% of it had escaped the jerry and became one with the carpet.
> 
> I thought that I had taken all reasonable precautions. The flavour of the wort did not suggest wild yeast or bacterial infection, so I dunno.
> I just mentioned this here, not to embarass my self, but to remind others that things can go astray, and it pays to check your jerrys regularly when using the no-chill method.
> 
> Seth out
Click to expand...


----------



## berazafi

I make sure my wort is up an in the handle, and if the worts around the 80+ deg mark, it will sanatise is for you


----------



## KoNG

I'm closing on double figures for the 'no chill' method now, Sydney's water levels are all the better for it too.!
No troubles with it so far, except for the fact that my beers dont clear quite as much.... having said that i dont rack to secondary as often because my cubes are tied up elsewhere.  i find that whirlfloc is a must.
Additionally i racked my hot wort to a cube on the weekend and half way through the process, noticed what looked like a smudge of mould on the inside of the cube!  guess its time to test the sanitizing capabilities of the wort.


----------



## Batz

berazafi said:


> I make sure my wort is up an in the handle, and if the worts around the 80+ deg mark, it will sanatise is for you




80+ 

Darren? You can't leave it at that !

Batz


----------



## Darren

Ok Batz, You tempted me.

Most beer spoilage organisms will not be killed at 80C. Especially just a brief exposure. You really need 100+ temps for 10 minutes to kill them.

On the first couple of uses you will probably get away with it. After a while though, there will build up of these heat resistant bacteria. 


Its been long enough since the "inception" of the no chill method.

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see a few more of these auto-fermenting beers soon. Especially as the day-time temps begin to rise.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Doc

Weizguy said:


> The cube was from a commercial fresh wort. I'd left some small amount of (the original/purchased) wort in the jerry, after pouring the contents onto a yeast cake of W1318. The container was left for a couple of days (with the lid on) before I rinsed it out. Just prior to addition of the hot wort, I added 5 litres of hot water and a large spoon of Pink stain remover to the jerry, and capped it and shook the heck out of it. Then I rinsed twice: once with hot , then once with cold water.



PSR is my favourite non-organic friend.
A splash around of it though is not enough. It needs more contact time.
Fill with hot water and a PSR solution for at LEAST 20 mins and all would have be fine and dandy.

Doc


----------



## bindi

I put mine in the cubes at boiling or close to it and NO problems with over 10 so far, and my chiller is now retired for most brews, almost all <_< .
Mind you, most are 'no chilled' overnight or the next day, most are less then three days in the cube
I am a convert to the no chill, as I can brew often and pitch when required, which is also often  .
No problem here :blink:  .


----------



## Darren

Bindi,

Overnight, a coupla days, no worries. Problems come when you store them for a bit longer.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Pumpy

I confess  , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method  


Pumpy


----------



## Batz

I too have done a couple of "no chill" brews of late,but I would not do a "no chill" lager 
But hell perhaps you can.

BTW
The Altbier in the July case was a "no chill"  

Batz


----------



## bindi

Darren said:


> Bindi,
> 
> Overnight, a coupla days, no worries. Problems come when you store them for a bit longer.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




I know this  but HOW long? Some say months Etc .
I will do one for a few months [next bulk buy] and see.


----------



## poppa joe

Any ideas fellas......
About the ESB fresh wort kits sitting in the HB Shop...for a month.....
Would there be any problems with those.....
Before i part with my hard earned Pension money...  
PJ


----------



## Pumpy

Darren said:


> Bindi,
> 
> Overnight, a coupla days, no worries. Problems come when you store them for a bit longer.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




i have left one for three to four weeks no problem 

Pumpy


----------



## Darren

I am sure MAH would be proud to see this go to 15 pages. Plus it has lifted my post count too 8).

All depends on how good your sanitation is to start with. Me I am a lazy brewer so a week would be about it. If you did it in a sterile room it would last for ever.

Staling of the sugars would be a problem with long term storage I would think.

but then many people have no sense of taste.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Pumpy

Darren said:


> I am sure MAH would be proud to see this go to 15 pages. Plus it has lifted my post count too 8).
> 
> All depends on how good your sanitation is to start with. Me I am a lazy brewer so a week would be about it. If you did it in a sterile room it would last for ever.
> 
> Staling of the sugars would be a problem with long term storage I would think.
> 
> but then many people have no sense of taste.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I am sure MAH would be considering he lifted the topic raised in Ducati Stu posting 'Natural born Chillers' 

Darren if you never tried it you will never know !!

Pumpy


----------



## Darren

Pumpy,

Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.

Glad its you 

cheers

Darren


----------



## Pumpy

Darren said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.
> 
> Glad its you
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I Cant argue with that Darren  

Any adverse affects on the human body ???

I have a freind in Peru and the women chew up a leaf spit it in to a cup made from a leaf bury it in the ground and allow it to ferment and it is quite a popular drink .

pumpy


----------



## Darren

Dunno Pumpy,

Never drank the mould. Usually just tipped it out.

Those Peruvian women are a crazy bunch arn't they. 

Fresh Peruvian spit maybe, not fermented though 8(.

cheers

Darren


----------



## bigfridge

Darren said:


> Most beer spoilage organisms will not be killed at 80C. Especially just a brief exposure. You really need 100+ temps for 10 minutes to kill them.
> 
> On the first couple of uses you will probably get away with it. After a while though, there will build up of these heat resistant bacteria.



And 



Darren said:


> Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.



Hi Darren,

You may have worked in a lab for all those years, but what you are saying is simply wrong. Heat is commonly used to pasturise beer in a brewery.

After the wort has been boiled it is sterile - as far as wort spoiling organisms are concerned. Any organisms introduced in the filling process will be killed by the high temperatures used. This is why breweries have flash and tunnel pasteurizers.

But this is not a hit & miss affair. The actual time and temperature can be calculated so that the time and energy is not wasted.

Because much less time is needed to kill organisms the higher the temperature a 'pasteurization unit' is defined as holding the beer (or wort) at 60 Deg C for one minute. 14-15 pasteurization units are required for beer pasteurization, so as long as the wort (and the cube) were held above 60 C for 15 minutes there is no chance of infection.

Of course hot filling and the slow cooling of the cubes results in much higher temperatures for a long period of time giving an enormous number of pasteurization units as it is an exponential equation. As an example while 15 mins is required at 60 C, only 2 mins are required at 66 Deg C. 

Weizguy, all that I can think of is that some part of the cube was insulated from the heat and some introduced bugs survived.

We have made many thousands of litres of NNL wort packs and have not heard of any problems, but we are very carefull to ensure that all internal surfaces of the cube get very hot - particularly the lid/handle and the space behind the tap plug. We also soak the lids in idophour to clean up any external nooks and crannies.

This does require a fair bit of turning during cooling but it is worth it for the peace of mind that it gives.

David


----------



## KoNG

Pumpy said:


> I confess  , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method
> 
> 
> Pumpy



Pumpy i think you could do with a smaller cube... or maybe brew a little more volume... :lol: 
thats one hell of a squeeeze


----------



## Weizguy

bigfridge said:


> <abbrev>
> Weizguy, all that I can think of is that some part of the cube was insulated from the heat and some introduced bugs survived.
> 
> We have made many thousands of litres of NNL wort packs and have not heard of any problems, but we are very carefull to ensure that all internal surfaces of the cube get very hot - particularly the lid/handle and the space behind the tap plug. We also soak the lids in idophour to clean up any external nooks and crannies.
> 
> This does require a fair bit of turning during cooling but it is worth it for the peace of mind that it gives.
> 
> David </abbrev>


David,

I hope U didn't get the impression that I thought the NNL cube was to blame. I just mentioned that fact to clarify that the cube was clean when I got it, and I must have mis-handled the process.

I prob didn't heat the handle enough. Lesson learned (and there goes my deposit for the cube, too :lol: ).

Darren, were U repeatedly exposed to ergot (a rye fungus, for those who are wondering)?
I am also interested to know why U need to increase your post count, with irrelevant info that would best be sent by pm (Peruvian spit reply).

Seth out


----------



## Pumpy

KoNG said:


> Pumpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I confess  , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method
> 
> 
> Pumpy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pumpy i think you could do with a smaller cube... or maybe brew a little more volume... :lol:
> thats one hell of a squeeeze
Click to expand...



Your right Kong those red marks on the inside of my Knees took a bit of explaining .

Pumpy


----------



## T.D.

Batz said:


> I too have done a couple of "no chill" brews of late,but I would not do a "no chill" lager
> But hell perhaps you can.



Batz, 

I've brewed 5 lagers with the no chiller method, and I can tell you they have ALL been better beers than any lagers I had done previously with an immersion chiller. Maybe I have just honed the rest of my brewing practices during that time, but the no-chiller method certainly hasn't had negative effects on my lagers. In my opinion, if it works for ales it works for lagers too - after all the difference between these two beer types is in the fermentation...

Re the sanitation thing etc, I must have done well over 10 no chillers by now and have had no problems. My method of cleaning/sanitising is to rinse the cube out with hot water after it is emptied, and then soak it in napisan. Then I give it a good dose of iodophor when the time comes to put hot wort in it. Time will tell I guess, but I am confident that if your cleaning and sanitation are anal enough you will not have a problem.


----------



## Darren

bigfridge said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most beer spoilage organisms will not be killed at 80C. Especially just a brief exposure. You really need 100+ temps for 10 minutes to kill them.
> 
> On the first couple of uses you will probably get away with it. After a while though, there will build up of these heat resistant bacteria.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> 
> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Darren,
> 
> You may have worked in a lab for all those years, but what you are saying is simply wrong. Heat is commonly used to pasturise beer in a brewery.
> 
> After the wort has been boiled it is sterile - as far as wort spoiling organisms are concerned. Any organisms introduced in the filling process will be killed by the high temperatures used. This is why breweries have flash and tunnel pasteurizers.
> 
> But this is not a hit & miss affair. The actual time and temperature can be calculated so that the time and energy is not wasted.
> 
> Because much less time is needed to kill organisms the higher the temperature a 'pasteurization unit' is defined as holding the beer (or wort) at 60 Deg C for one minute. 14-15 pasteurization units are required for beer pasteurization, so as long as the wort (and the cube) were held above 60 C for 15 minutes there is no chance of infection.
> 
> Of course hot filling and the slow cooling of the cubes results in much higher temperatures for a long period of time giving an enormous number of pasteurization units as it is an exponential equation. As an example while 15 mins is required at 60 C, only 2 mins are required at 66 Deg C.
> 
> We have made many thousands of litres of NNL wort packs and have not heard of any problems, but we are very carefull to ensure that all internal surfaces of the cube get very hot - particularly the lid/handle and the space behind the tap plug. We also soak the lids in idophour to clean up any external nooks and crannies.
> 
> This does require a fair bit of turning during cooling but it is worth it for the peace of mind that it gives.
> 
> David
Click to expand...



Hi David,

Having worked in a lab for 20 years means I know that what you just wrote is only half correct. As you are obviously aware milk is pasteurised and will spoil within a couple of days of opening. Milk doesn't go into second hand containers for that reason. Milk is nutrient rich, just like wort.

In a brewery using that uses pasteurisation (read big brewery) the pasteurisation occurs AFTER fermentation, furthermore the beer doesnot comes in contact with air. Probably the main reason it is pasteurised in the first place is to kill yeast so it doesn't accumulate and overcarbonate bottles.

Now, what we are discussing here is unfermented wort stored in second-hand plastic container. Plastic is a poor conducter of heat, and you would need to stand the jerry upside down for at least 10 minutes at boiling to sanitise. Plastic is the perfect medium for accumulation of microbial flora, especially in the handle where you cannot scrub.

I am not saying your process is poor, just that heatining a second hand jerry to sanitise is poor practice. Especially unfermented wort!!

cheers

Darren


----------



## Hopsta

Pumpy said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pumpy,
> 
> Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.
> 
> Glad its you
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I Cant argue with that Darren
> 
> Any adverse affects on the human body ???
> 
> I have a freind in Peru and the women chew up a leaf spit it in to a cup made from a leaf bury it in the ground and allow it to ferment and it is quite a popular drink .
> 
> pumpy
Click to expand...


We should pass this information onto Chris White from Whitelabs... 
I can see it now "WLP900 - Peruvian Spit Ale Yeast"


----------



## Darren

Weizguy said:


> warrenlw63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just rinse the cube out, and allow the hot wort to sanitise it!
> 
> QED
> Seth out
> [post="115536"][/post]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you're espousing Weiz is very much akin to utilising a used condom. h34r:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="115552"][/post]​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Warren,
> 
> I didn't mean to sound that I'm advocating poor practice.
> I was just trying to give Brent a (weak) possible explanation for the "less sanitising" comment.
> 
> Maybe I should keep quiet while all these literal-minded AHBers are online.
> 
> Naaaahh!
> 
> ...and they did recycle condoms back in the days when they made connies of pig gut, and didn't know better.
> 
> Seth out
Click to expand...



Weizguy,

Was my post any worse than some of your posts?

cheers

Darren


----------



## DJR

T.D. said:


> Batz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too have done a couple of "no chill" brews of late,but I would not do a "no chill" lager
> But hell perhaps you can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Batz,
> 
> I've brewed 5 lagers with the no chiller method, and I can tell you they have ALL been better beers than any lagers I had done previously with an immersion chiller. Maybe I have just honed the rest of my brewing practices during that time, but the no-chiller method certainly hasn't had negative effects on my lagers. In my opinion, if it works for ales it works for lagers too - after all the difference between these two beer types is in the fermentation...
> 
> Re the sanitation thing etc, I must have done well over 10 no chillers by now and have had no problems. My method of cleaning/sanitising is to rinse the cube out with hot water after it is emptied, and then soak it in napisan. Then I give it a good dose of iodophor when the time comes to put hot wort in it. Time will tell I guess, but I am confident that if your cleaning and sanitation are anal enough you will not have a problem.
Click to expand...


Same story here - i have done 4 no-chiller AG's now, 2 lagers and 2 pale ales. The lagers are fine, the break is quite good and they are really quite clear, considering how cloudy my runoff usually is. I don't know if i'm sensitive to DMS but i haven't tasted any off flavours in the finished product.

I use the same method, fill with warm-hot water and napisan after use, wash out well, store with a bit of met in the bottom, then rinse out and sterilise with iodophor before running the wort in at about 80 degrees. No spontaneous ferments yet. Mine wasn't a second hand jerry though, it was a willow 20L blue one that has only had no-chill worts so far.


----------



## Batz

Well I may give a lager a go sometime to see.
I did a Pilsner last and I was not confident enough to try to no chill on that,to say ales and lagers are the same apart from fermentation T.D. is not quite correct.
I make many changes when brewing a pilsner or lager,believe me a true pilsner is one of the most difficult beers to brew,any tiny off flavour will show up.
Ales will hide these in there malt and hops,having said this I have not tried a pilsner with the no chill so I am not really qualified to give advise just my opinion. 

Cheers
Batz


----------



## T.D.

Batz said:


> Well I may give a lager a go sometime to see.
> I did a Pilsner last and I was not confident enough to try to no chill on that,to say ales and lagers are the same apart from fermentation T.D. is not quite correct.
> I make many changes when brewing a pilsner or lager,believe me a true pilsner is one of the most difficult beers to brew,any tiny off flavour will show up.
> Ales will hide these in there malt and hops,having said this I have not tried a pilsner with the no chill so I am not really qualified to give advise just my opinion.
> 
> Cheers
> Batz



I see what you are saying, but a lot of the reason why you can detect off flavours easier in a lager than an ale is a facet of fermentation, and certainly not the chilling method. There are also a number of ale styles that are essentially identical to lagers apart from the yeast. Regardless, I see no reason for the no chiller method to be any less successful for lagers than ales. Give it a try, you won't be disappointed!


----------



## KoNG

Weizguy said:


> I am also interested to know why U need to increase your post count, with irrelevant info that would best be sent by pm (Peruvian spit reply).
> 
> Seth out



Post count is directly related to penis size..! h34r:


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> Hi David,
> 
> Having worked in a lab for 20 years means I know that what you just wrote is only half correct. As you are obviously aware milk is pasteurised and will spoil within a couple of days of opening. Milk doesn't go into second hand containers for that reason. Milk is nutrient rich, just like wort.



Milk is also only held at 72C for 15 seconds. When someone starts trying to HTST pasteurise their wort and store it for a while, then I'll worry.

Within a couple days of opening, my cubes of botulism are happily fermenting away. With yeast. Non-wild yeast.


----------



## Darren

Some interesting articles here

http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/1996/0103-03a.htm

and here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract

Anyone have access to them? I would be very interested to read them if you do.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Darren

Kai said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> Having worked in a lab for 20 years means I know that what you just wrote is only half correct. As you are obviously aware milk is pasteurised and will spoil within a couple of days of opening. Milk doesn't go into second hand containers for that reason. Milk is nutrient rich, just like wort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Milk is also only held at 72C for 15 seconds. When someone starts trying to HTST pasteurise their wort and store it for a while, then I'll worry.
> 
> Within a couple days of opening, my cubes of botulism are happily fermenting away. With yeast. Non-wild yeast.
Click to expand...



Kai, I think we are talking about why someones fermenter blew up like a balloon without addition of yeast. Obviously it is the result of spoilage organisms. 

Its when they start putting milk in second hand plastic containers you should worry about.

cheers

Darren

Botulism? who knows, apparently the toxin is tasteless. Maybe you are volunteering to do a trial?


----------



## MAH

All winter I've cast aside my chiller and used the no chill method, including a Pilsner. With the cold nights, by the next day the wort is cool enough for pitching. For me the advantage has been taking a litre or so of the wort, and placing this in a sanitised glass flagon. I pitch my yeast into this and this provides a nice healthy active starter made from the same wort I intend to ferment. I pitch the whole lot the day after brewing.

The pilsner is lagering at the moment, but from what I have tasted, it's as clean and crisp as any other pilsner I've made.

When the weather heats up, and in particular at the height of summer, this method will not be possible for me. Even the night time temperatures will be above ale pitching temps, so it will be back to the CFC and then knocking the final few degrees down in the fermenting fridge.

I've made about 8 beers this way with no perceptable ill effects. I've even stopped casting out the hot wort to a cube, I just cast out hot straight to the fermenter. Next day pitch the yeast, then when it's finished fermenting rack into a keg. Nice and simple with less fuss. This is what I did with an American Amber Ale that went down a treat at a recent gatrhering of fellow AGers. Some top quality brewers such as TDA, Chiller, Pedro and Jayse all seemed to like it and an Alt that I made the no-chiller way.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Darren

MAH,

I have no doubt that it works especially in winter (albeit CF chilling in winter is far more efficient and takes less time). So long as you pitch the next day I can't see why there would be a problem. Give it a couple of days at a stretch. After all, I have done a very similar thing for years with lagers, in that I put them in the fridge at 25 or so. Allow to cool overnight, then pitch the yeast. Not a problem.

The problem is storage of unfermented wort for extended times in dirty containers.


cheers

Darren


----------



## AndrewQLD

-_- zzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
this thread is starting to rehash what was said in the original "no chiller" thread, can we get back on track please before I really nod off.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Darren

Ah, but Andrew,

It should always be re-hashed for the newer bretheren amongst us that that no-chill and storage may save you 15 minutes on the day but will likely result in a dumped batch.

Me, I prefer to chill (after all it is only an extra 15 mins) and then pitch. Then I know next time I look at the beer it will be beer.

Do you have any constructive input into the subject? If not then just nod off!!


cheers

Darren


----------



## Bobby

darren have you said anything you havent a dozen or so times before? 
we all know your position on this topic. 
what's that saying about a dead horse?


----------



## AndrewQLD

> Ah, but Andrew,
> 
> It should always be re-hashed for the newer bretheren amongst us that that no-chill and storage may save you 15 minutes on the day but will likely result in a dumped batch.



I agree totally Darren which is why you should direct new comers to the original thread No Chiller Method instead of repeating the same arguments everytime the subject comes up.
I know and respect your opinions on this subject but just get a little tired of the repetition.

Cheers
Andrew (nodding off to sleep)


----------



## bindi

Pumpy said:


> I confess  , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method
> 
> 
> Pumpy




Me also, todays effort, not as pushed-in as yours.


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> Kai said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> Having worked in a lab for 20 years means I know that what you just wrote is only half correct. As you are obviously aware milk is pasteurised and will spoil within a couple of days of opening. Milk doesn't go into second hand containers for that reason. Milk is nutrient rich, just like wort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Milk is also only held at 72C for 15 seconds. When someone starts trying to HTST pasteurise their wort and store it for a while, then I'll worry.
> 
> Within a couple days of opening, my cubes of botulism are happily fermenting away. With yeast. Non-wild yeast.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Kai, I think we are talking about why someones fermenter blew up like a balloon without addition of yeast. Obviously it is the result of spoilage organisms.
> 
> Its when they start putting milk in second hand plastic containers you should worry about.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> Botulism? who knows, apparently the toxin is tasteless. Maybe you are volunteering to do a trial?
Click to expand...



I did not see the relevance of a comparison to milk pasteurisation. Seth's beachball cube is in the same league as any other infection, in my opinion; just a slip up in the sanitation process.

The botulism comment was a light-hearted reference to some of your more interesting criticisms of this process


----------



## Lukes

I have done 6 brews that have had the "no chill method with all positive results all but one.. :angry: 

The one was a wheat ale made back in the wheat fermenting months and I had more wort that could fit into my 25 liter cube so I half filled an 15 fresh wort container that has not been cleaned properly and after a few days the 7 or so liters blew up like what happened to Seth. 
I opened the smaller one after a week of sitting on the shed floor @ 20 degrees and it was *"wild"* :blink: 
The clean one with no headspace was fine and made a great brew.  

So my user experience is clean and san the cube and then try to fill the cube as much as possible or break it down into smaller cubes or bottles.

Any extra wort now I bottle up and as outline already in previous posts use from starters.


BTW has anyone added hops to the cube and then the hot wort as in a flame out addition?

Luke


----------



## KoNG

Darren said:


> Ah, but Andrew,
> 
> It should always be re-hashed for the newer bretheren amongst us that that no-chill and storage may save you 15 minutes on the day but will likely result in a dumped batch.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



talk about round in circles.
this thread is about the people that use the method, several people have mentioned that they have done some 10 batches or more... none with infections as yet.... except for maybe weizguys (?)
so we have a result of dumped batches for most people around 0/10.

Run bretheren RUN...!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## berazafi

Lukes said:


> I have done 6 brews that have had the "no chill method" with all positive results all but one.. :angry:
> 
> The one was a wheat ale made back in the wheat fermenting months and I had more wort that could fit into my 25 liter cube so I half filled an 15 fresh wort container that has not been cleaned properly and after a few days the 7 or so liters blew up like what happened to Seth.
> I opened the smaller one after a week of sitting on the shed floor @ 20 degrees and it was *"wild"* :blink:
> The clean one with no headspace was fine and made a great brew.
> 
> So my user experience is clean and san the cube and then try to fill the cube as much as possible or break it down into smaller cubes or bottles.
> 
> Any extra wort now I bottle up and as outline already in previous posts use from starters.
> 
> 
> BTW has anyone added hops to the cube and then the hot wort as in a flame out addition?
> 
> Luke





I have and the result was alot more aroma than i would ussualy get with flameout additions


----------



## KoNG

Lukes said:


> BTW has anyone added hops to the cube and then the hot wort as in a flame out addition?
> 
> Luke



Luke, i have used that method a couple of times, although none are at drinking stage yet.
i like to call it LWH... you may call it that as well...


----------



## AndrewQLD

> BTW has anyone added hops to the cube and then the hot wort as in a flame out addition?
> 
> Luke



Hi Lukes,
I have done several brews with the no chill method and a couple of bitters with the flame out addition (plugs) in the cube ( no infections), It gave a lovelly aroma that lasted till the end of the keg. The only problem I found was the tap on the cube can block easily if you transfer too quickly at the beginning. A part from that, the flame out addition works well in the cube.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Bobby

AndrewQLD said:


> BTW has anyone added hops to the cube and then the hot wort as in a flame out addition?
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Lukes,
> I have done several brews with the no chill method and a couple of bitters with the flame out addition (plugs) in the cube ( no infections), It gave a lovelly aroma that lasted till the end of the keg. The only problem I found was the tap on the cube can block easily if you transfer too quickly at the beginning. A part from that, the flame out addition works well in the cube.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
Click to expand...


I found the exact same as Andrew. My tap clogged a couple time but the resulting beer was great.


----------



## Lukes

MMM got me thinking...  
I have a few hops still from the bulk buy and I may up the "LWH"  
I have a few old (retired) hop sock's I can put the leaf hops in to stop them floating around the cube.

So that's another pro for the method.

Luke


----------



## Kai

AndrewQLD said:


> BTW has anyone added hops to the cube and then the hot wort as in a flame out addition?
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Lukes,
> I have done several brews with the no chill method and a couple of bitters with the flame out addition (plugs) in the cube ( no infections), It gave a lovelly aroma that lasted till the end of the keg. The only problem I found was the tap on the cube can block easily if you transfer too quickly at the beginning. A part from that, the flame out addition works well in the cube.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
Click to expand...


I've done it a couple times too, but only because I forgot to put the finishing hops in the kettle at flameout.


----------



## bindi

UOTE(KoNG @ Jul 17 2006, 02:52 PM) *

i FWH alot/most of my beers, i like the results.!
i have also started LWH "last wort hopping" (i just made this term up.!?!?), but what i mean is, that using the "no chill" method, i add my flame out hops to the cube instead of the kettle. i dont have enough data on LWH as yet to post any significant results. (others may tho.)



LWH biggrin.gif I do the same, did it today, I tie the hops in a hop bag and use fishing line which I secure to the handle and when I squeese the air out of the cube I still get a good seal and makes it easy to pull out smile.gif later, the only time I had trouble getting the bag out was when I used Nelson Sauvin flowers, big swallon bag of flowers comming out of a small hole. biggrin.gif


This was posted last month on this subject  I have done four brews since all LWH  and the flavour is fantastic  I am using long thin bags in the cubes for the hops.


----------



## Batz

MAH said:


> All winter I've cast aside my chiller and used the no chill method, including a Pilsner.
> 
> The pilsner is lagering at the moment, but from what I have tasted, it's as clean and crisp as any other pilsner I've made.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> MAH



Well thanks for that feedback MAH,I will try my Pils "no chill" next time.
I am always a bit paranoid when I do my pilsners,I am very critical of this style of beer much more so than a lager.

Batz


----------



## AndrewQLD

Batz,
I have done a couple of Bo Pils using the no chiller method and have not been able to fault them. I agree with you about a pilsner being a beer that can show faults very easily, from colour, clarity, flavour to aroma, the faults stand out like a beacon. A good style to highlight any areas your brewing is not up to scratch in.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Batz

That'll do me Andrew I know your every bit as critical of you brews as I am of mine.


Batz


----------



## Pumpy

bindi said:


> Pumpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I confess  , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method
> 
> 
> Pumpy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me also, todays effort, not as pushed-in as yours.
Click to expand...


Nice One Bindi , I had to put Calamine lotion on my knees it was so hot , they tremble a bit now :blink: 

Pumpy


----------



## bigfridge

Darren said:


> Some interesting articles here
> 
> http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/1996/0103-03a.htm
> 
> and here:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract
> 
> Anyone have access to them? I would be very interested to read them if you do.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




Darren,

The first article "Influence of growth medium on thermal resistance of Pediococcus sp. NRRL B-2354 (formerly Micrococcus freudenreichii) in liquid foods" reports on "the effect of growth medium on the thermal D value of this organism in skim milk, whole liquid egg, 10% glucose solution, pineapple juice, apple juice, tomato juice, and water at 60 degrees C".

Can't see any reference to beer or wort so not to interested in chasing it up.

For "Heat Resistance of Bacteria in Alcohol-Free Beer" Just hit the "VIEW ARTICLE" link.

David


----------



## Mr Bond

KoNG said:


> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am also interested to know why U need to increase your post count, with irrelevant info that would best be sent by pm (Peruvian spit reply).
> 
> Seth out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Post count is directly related to penis size..! h34r:
Click to expand...


And or *EGO* size :excl: 

Just another superfluous post/observation ,to increase my count HA:lol: HA :lol: HA


----------



## yardy

sooooo, having read the first few pages am i right in saying that i transfer the hot wort straight to an iodophored (sp) cube and all will be good ?


what about the trapped air ?



this is such a long topic so i'm sorry if i lost something along the way.

cheers


yardy


----------



## pint of lager

Yardy, there are two threads on the no chill method.

One covers the nuts and bolts methodology. 

The thread you are currently reading is for people who have tried the method and their good and bad results. If you think this thread is long, you should have seen it before it was split up.

Dig up the original no chill thread, it discusses how. Yes, it is also long, but the information is great and well worthwhile reading the whole lot. If you are on dial up and the pages are taking ages to load, go to your personal settings, turn off avatars and images in posts as well as in signatures.


----------



## berazafi

pint of lager said:


> Yardy, there are two threads on the no chill method.
> 
> One covers the nuts and bolts methodology.
> 
> The thread you are currently reading is for people who have tried the method and their good and bad results. If you think this thread is long, you should have seen it before it was split up.
> 
> Dig up the original no chill thread, it discusses how. Yes, it is also long, but the information is great and well worthwhile reading the whole lot. If you are on dial up and the pages are taking ages to load, go to your personal settings, turn off avatars and images in posts as well as in signatures.



Or at the bottom of everypage is a lo-fi version (click on it)


----------



## yardy

a bit of light reading on the way then :blink: 



cheers 


yard


----------



## Darren

bigfridge said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting articles here
> 
> http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/1996/0103-03a.htm
> 
> and here:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract
> 
> Anyone have access to them? I would be very interested to read them if you do.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren,
> 
> The first article "Influence of growth medium on thermal resistance of Pediococcus sp. NRRL B-2354 (formerly Micrococcus freudenreichii) in liquid foods" reports on "the effect of growth medium on the thermal D value of this organism in skim milk, whole liquid egg, 10% glucose solution, pineapple juice, apple juice, tomato juice, and water at 60 degrees C".
> 
> Can't see any reference to beer or wort so not to interested in chasing it up.
> 
> 
> 
> For "Heat Resistance of Bacteria in Alcohol-Free Beer" Just hit the "VIEW ARTICLE" link.
> 
> David
Click to expand...


HI David, Thanks. Why didn't it work first time for me? 

Certainly an interesting read and I certainly noted the advice to the brewing industry about serving/storing unfermented beer.

All the Darren knockers should spend a few minutes on this paper.

BTW, Did you see 10% glucose solution? In a roundabout way that is the sugar content of un-fermented beer! If you can get that article I would be interested to glance over that one too.


cheers

Darren


----------



## Bobby

get over it darren. people like myself use this method and dont have a problem.
we understand there is a risk. if i get an infection it doesnt bother me as i enjoy brewing just as much as i enjoy drinking. that said i have left some unfermented wort for 3 weeks and havent had a problem.
your veiwpoint and opinion is well established and i doubt there is anyone that doesnt know your opinion on the matter.

you arent a user of this method, so why do you continue to post on this thread?
PM me your grievances and save everybody else from the monotony.


----------



## bigfridge

Darren said:


> Certainly an interesting read and I certainly noted the advice to the brewing industry about serving/storing unfermented beer.
> 
> All the Darren knockers should spend a few minutes on this paper.
> 
> BTW, Did you see 10% glucose solution? In a roundabout way that is the sugar content of un-fermented beer! If you can get that article I would be interested to glance over that one too.



Daren,

Sorry but I won't bother to get you a copy of the article as I fear that it would be a waste of all our time.

It is very brave of you to suggest that your detractors read these scientific studies because they cut down your selective arguments. One line from the conclusion says it all:

"Heat killing experiements cannot be conducted at 60 C because the cells die too quickly to be sampled and enumerated". This means that it takes so little time at 60 C to kill the bugs under investigation that they are all dead by the time they can count them. Sounds good enough for me.

The "advice to the brewing industry about serving/storing unfermented beer" concerns unpasturised beer - which is not what we are talking about here. The actual wording talking about the increase growth of the bugs in alcohol free beer is "Therefore industry is cautioned about filtration of alcohol-free beers (AFB) to achieve microbial stability, and about possible marketing of UNPASTURISED draught AFB".

Sorry, but this would appear to end the discussion ...... at least for me. Plenty of people are happy with this method. If you aren't then please don't feel compelled to use it.

Good Brewing (and milking)

David


----------



## stephen

Bigfridge

Excelent response!

Sometimes, we professionals in any area, often cringe when we see others trying to do things that are not 'kosher' to our area of expertise. When we learn our area of expertise we are taught the clinical approach: The exact science! There is no room for error!

When, we as amatuer brewers, approach the subject - there is no exact science or expertise, we just give it a go as best of our knowledge and expertise. 

There are people out there who can break down the enzymatic process down to the molecule and explain what happens to the molecule. There are those that can explain what happens when paint dries, or how concrete will set.

At the end of the day, do we really care how paint dries or how concrete sets? If this is the level you want to go then get your degree. If not brew to your hearts content.

Rant over

Steve


----------



## Samwise Gamgee

Pumpy said:


> bindi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pumpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I confess  , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method
> 
> 
> Pumpy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me also, todays effort, not as pushed-in as yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice One Bindi , I had to put Calamine lotion on my knees it was so hot , they tremble a bit now :blink:
> 
> Pumpy
Click to expand...


I did my first no-chill method the other week, haven't chucked it in a fermenter yet though.

I know this might seem like blasphamy to some, but i was about 1.5L short of filling the cube completely, so in went 1.5L boiling water! h34r: 

I had quite a high evaporation rate, so I don't think it will cause to many drama's to the SG.

Will report back when I ferment it, as I think it will be in the cube for possibly 4 odd weeks.


----------



## bigfridge

stephen said:


> There are people out there who can break down the enzymatic process down to the molecule and explain what happens to the molecule. There are those that can explain what happens when paint dries, or how concrete will set.
> 
> At the end of the day, do we really care how paint dries or how concrete sets? If this is the level you want to go then get your degree. If not brew to your hearts content.



Steve,

Fully agree with you mate.

One of the most highly regarded brewing scientists is DeClerk. His 2 volume text was written in the 40's but is still used in brewing schools around the world. Because it was before the time of electron microsocpes and DNA profiling there are many times when he writes that "we don't know why this happens, but over many trials we have found that ....". Experience is all you need to make great beer.

In this current debate, many many people have reported thousands of litres of wort has been stored in cubes with no ill effect. Around the world many breweries are packaging sterile wort kits. In fact every tin of extract is packed using the 'no-chill method'.

In all this time we have had only one report of a problem, and this is suspected to be due to incomplete heating of the cube interior. Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

When we package the NNL Brewery Wort packs we fill them to the required capacity and then squeeze as much of the air out as possible before screwing on the lid. Any remaining air is mainly steam and will be sterilised by the heat. They are then laid on their 'front' so that the handle and lid are fully immersed to get as hot as possible. They stay like this for 15-30 mins while the batch is being filled and after hosing off any spillage they are returned to the upright position for loading. The lids are then tightened with a special spanner as we have found that some can loosen on cooling. Perhaps this happened with yours, allowing bugs to be sucked in before the pressure buildup caused it to seal again.

We have not re-used any cubes for sale, but have re-used some for 'internal quality control' (just in case the tax department is listening). I have a 20litre cube that is on its 4th or 5th batch. After emptying, I make sure that these cubes get a though hose out to remove all traces of wort. I also unscrew the tap bung to ensure that nothing is hiding in there.

Works for me ......

David


----------



## MAH

Batz said:


> Well thanks for that feedback MAH,I will try my Pils "no chill" next time.
> I am always a bit paranoid when I do my pilsners,I am very critical of this style of beer much more so than a lager.
> 
> Batz




Hi Batz

It was a very straight forward German Pilsner. 95% Weyermann Pils and 5% Carapils. 100% Hallertau Hersbrucker, with 60, 30, 15 and 0 additions. Fermented with 34/70. Only real problem was when I took it out of the fermenting fridge after 2 weeks to raise the temperature, it never got above 14c with the cold weather we were having. 

Last night I tried some. It has only been in the keg for a week and was fairly cloudy as it was the first pour, but the flavour was spot on. Nice malt flavour, good crisp bitterness, with a pleasant hop flavour. The hop aroma is a bit subdued and it is a bit too full bodied, neither of which I would consider an effect of the no-chiller method. The body is probably a result of using 34/70 which isn't the most attenuative of yeasts and the low hop aroma is something that always happens with my brews, I just cant get that big loral hop nose that other beers seem to have. In terms of a cooked corn or other vegetable like flavours from DMS, there are none.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## sinkas

Not sure if this has been covered, I tried reading all 18 pages, but may have missed it.
I made an IPA with the NCM, and stupidly, stirred the settled break back into the clear wort. I decided to jsut throw the wholelot into the fermenter, adn worry about it later.
So the beer is now down to 1010, from 1072, ( US 56 did this in just a week) 
I am planning to siphon the wort off the break and the hop debris, into a bottling bucket, my question is, should I crash cool the beer, take it down to about 1 degree, to assist in getting it off the break and hops?

Cheers

Case


----------



## T.D.

In my experience it makes no difference whether you pour the break material into the fermenter or not. Its just particles in suspension - they settle out and when you rack to secondary or a keg they will be left, along with the yeast cake, at the bottom of the fermenter. For me, it has always settled out, resulting in a beer that is at least as clear (if not clearer) than the beers I used to make using an immersion chiller.


----------



## Hogan

Sinkas 

There have been a number of posts that suggest the inclusion of the break into the fermentor will not make any difference to the finished product. 

In fact in the USA they leave the break in on purpose. 

The only reason why I would remove it prior to commencement of the primary would be to save having to separate a big heap of the break from the yeast slurry when I want to wash and save my yeast prior to racking to secondary.


Cheers, Hogan.


----------



## MHB

Ok I had my concerns about this method, I still have a few reservations, but the reports here and the success of Fresh Wort packs has convinced me that this is a valid method.

There are now 3 Fresh Wort makers just on the east coast, I think we will see this number grow. As a retailer I expect to see Fresh Wort packs become an integral and growing part of home brew retail.

The unexpected spin of is that people brewing Fresh Worts is leading to a growth of interest in AG brewing.

Funny how things come full circle, I am just old enough to remember the original Coopers bag in box kits, thats early 70s, they were selling Fresh Wort kits in supermarkets over 30 years ago.

No-Chiller Method Rules.

MHB


----------



## Bobby

i tip pretty much all of the trub into the Fresh wort container. All of that then goes into the fermenter.
i have no problems with it at all.


----------



## bindi

T.D. said:


> In my experience it makes no difference whether you pour the break material into the fermenter or not. Its just particles in suspension - they settle out and when you rack to secondary or a keg they will be left, along with the yeast cake, at the bottom of the fermenter. For me, it has always settled out, resulting in a beer that is at least as clear (if not clearer) than the beers I used to make using an immersion chiller.




Ditto  went to a lot of trouble at first *not *to put the "dregs" into the fermenter and it made... You know the rest  Over 10 no chill[ must be more] ,and better beer, no going back <_< .
Anyone want to buy a 18m chiller? little use and looking sad. :unsure:


----------



## Samwise Gamgee

My first No-Chill brew is fermenting at the moment. It was in a cube for approx 3 weeks.

No signs of infection as of yet. It's only been fermenting for a couple of days. If there becomes any dramas I'll reprt back.

If not, then it looks like there will be another regular user of the No-Chill method!


----------



## Bobby

i just pitched some us56 on an amber ale i had sitting in the cube for 5 weeks.
the wort look/smelt/tasted fine.
cant see any dramas with this one.


----------



## Ross

I did 4 hot wort kits for Noel (Metters) to take on the road - I'm told the Amber, which was fermented on the beach in WA is tasting beautiful in the bottle. However, 1 of the 4 kits (Schwarz) has blown up like a ballon in its container - Noel reckoned it still tasted ok at this stage, so he's gone ahead & fermented it by adding new yeast & he's actually fermented it in the cube as well, just releasing the gas daily - I reckon he's mad, as I would have chucked it, so will be interesting to hear the final taste verdict.

I did a double brew yeasterday - wasn't planning on using the no chill, but as the NE wind came up & started blowing from the nearby scrub over my brews, I ran them straight into the fermenters at approx 70c & pitched the yeast this morning. Certainly took all the stress of airbourne yeast contamination away  

cheers Ross


----------



## Ken Man Do

My first no-chill lager was brewed on June 6th. 70% pilsen malt, 20% maize, 10% malted wheat, Liberty hops. It's almost gone (10 gallons) and is quite a beer, as I can attest to at this very moment! A number of discriminating drinkers spoke highly of it. As a matter of fact, one taster is a contributing writer to the most popular home brewing magazine in America. He detected a hint of diacetyl (though others didn't) which could be easily corrected via the diacetyl rest. He also said, were it not for the diacetyl, the beer could score a 40 in competition.

An additional kicker is that this beer was fermented on the trub to completion, then transferred to two carboys for clarification and conditioning.

For cooling, I simply sealed the boil kettle with an airlock. The airlock had an Iodophor-soaked cotton ball in it, so that the air that was sucked in during cooling would be filtered. I have used this cotton ball method several times before, including its use during sterile grain mushroom mycelial growth production. It works.

No question I'll repeat this method, with er, the D-rest this time.


----------



## Samwise Gamgee

Samwise Gamgee said:


> My first No-Chill brew is fermenting at the moment. It was in a cube for approx 3 weeks.
> 
> No signs of infection as of yet. It's only been fermenting for a couple of days. If there becomes any dramas I'll reprt back.
> 
> If not, then it looks like there will be another regular user of the No-Chill method!



Just a quick follow up of the above.

It's now kegged and there are no faults which I can attribute to the No-Chill Method.

I think I'll be using this method for a lot of my brews from now on.


----------



## Stuster

I recently did a double batch of California Common using the no-chill. Mashed at 67, OG of 1048. The first batch was pitched the next day with a 2L starter of WLP810 yeast. This batch was in the primary for 2 weeks, being stable for 6 days at 1016. This gave an attenuation of 67%, right in the middle for this yeast. I've been drinking this and it's tasting good.

The second batch was pitched onto less than half of the yeast cake from the first batch. This batch was in primary for three weeks due to my holiday. It finished at 1006 giving 87% attenuation! 

I'm not sure why there would be such a huge difference in the attenuation of the two batches. Is it just the larger quantity of yeast in the second batch? Something to do with the no-chill method? Having an extra week in primary sounds unlikely as the first batch had been stable at that FG for nearly a week. Any ideas?


----------



## goatherder

I'll pipe in with my experience here too.

I did a double brewday a little while ago and put the second brew into a no-chill jerry. I fermented it 4 weeks later and the beer turned out great. No noticeable differences as far as I could tell.

When I drained the no-chill jerry into the fermenter I got to leave behind the kettle trub and cold break which had made it's way into the wort. This meant that I had a really clean yeast cake after the fermentation which I repitched onto the following brew. A little side benefit which was quite helpful to me at the time.


----------



## warrenlw63

I'll rip straight into my opinion on no chill brewing.

Firstly I'd term it a bit of a disasater from a personal standpoint. The whole concept of saving 1.5-2 hours in time didn't turn out that way for me.  

I think my mistake may have been doing a Pils with nearly 200g of hops (110g pellets & 6 plugs). This would work if I'd chilled the wort and allowed it to settle in the usual manner. OTOH trying to get this to go from near boiling to a couple of cubes without the whole mess was a disasater. Pickup tube blocked within the first litre. I had to blow backwards to clear the tube (so much for O2 uptake). Then bring the whole thing back up to the boil (thank goodness for the NASA).  Reboiled for 10 mins. (goodbye hopping levels and aroma). Re ran to the cubes and got a trickle of a flow of about 1 litre per 2 minutes. Took 90 mins to fill the cubes OMG!  

One bonus is the hop gunk (mainly plug) basically filtered all the crap from the pellets and I got totally clean wort to the cubes. That said there's a fair bit of cold break in the cubes this morning.

Oh and to add insult to injury I up-ended myself on my stool when putting the lid back on the HLT, fell and smashed my knee against the Dexion frame. I've now got a left knee that looks like a balloon. Did a bit of swearing there I can tell you.

I won't say I'll abandon this method totally per se... If I were to do it again I'd bag all my hops. 

Warren -

Firmly embracing his chiller begging forgivness. :lol:


----------



## devo

jeez wazz hope the knee is better LOL.

I'm seriously looking for alternate ways (this being one) to cooling my wort with the impending water restrictions???


----------



## Bobby

my amber ale turned out great. no-chill is great. 
i have only used my immersion chiller once, and cant really see it getting much more use.


----------



## devo

Bobby said:


> my amber ale turned out great. no-chill is great.
> i have only used my immersion chiller once, and cant really see it getting much more use.




What temp have you been running your hot wort into your fementer vessel? If that is how your doing it? :huh:


----------



## Bobby

it goes into the cube pretty much straight after flame out. hops and all go in - never had a problem with clarity, but depending on the brew sometime some hop debris makes its may through to the keg.
the wort would be near boiling when it goes it.


----------



## devo

Bobby said:


> it goes into the cube pretty much straight after flame out. hops and all go in - never had a problem with clarity, but depending on the brew sometime some hop debris makes its may through to the keg.
> the wort would be near boiling when it goes it.



wow ok...so you don't find any issues with the heat vs the plastic/rubber tap seals etc???

do you pump a burst of CO2 into the vessel just prior to cubing?


----------



## Gerard_M

[/quote]

wow ok...so you don't find any issues with the heat vs the plastic/rubber tap seals etc???

do you pump a burst of CO2 into the vessel just prior to cubing?
[/quote]

Simply push the sides of the cube in, minimising the amount of air in the cube.

I finally pitched Duff's Australian Pale into a fermentor on the weekend. I reckon it has sat in the garage for an easy 6 months. Smelt nice & fresh when I opened it, & the OG sample was awesome.
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## warrenlw63

For me the whole thing went OK. I just wouldn't do it again with 6 hop plugs in the kettle. If I were to use plugs again I'd bag them or toss them bagged into the cube. The whole thing went pear-shaped when a bit of plug well um... "plugged" the pickup tube in the kettle. Blowing back into the wort to clear it would have done me no O2 pick up favours that's for sure. <_< 

Thanks for the concern Devo... Knee's throbbin' like a bugger. Funny part was I wasn't even drinking. Just stood awkwardly on the stool. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## Stuster

warrenlw63 said:


> Funny part was _I wasn't even drinking_.



Clearly the cause of all your brew day problems. :lol:


----------



## doglet

Warren - Do you think the blockages was a result of the no-chill or just because of the plugs? Thinking about it now you probably tried to drain the kettle into the cube without whirlpooling first so that the wort was a hot as possible entering the cube. What do other people do? I've taken to using hop bags and/or hop sock as I had blockages when trying to run wort through my CFWC.

Anyway hope your knee is ok - I fell sideways off a ladder last week and miracuously didn't spill a drop of paint from the bucket in my hand! All the practice of not spillling a drop of beer when drunk came into good stead!


----------



## warrenlw63

Doglet.

I whirlpooled the hot wort and let it sit for 15 mins. Still pulled the plugs through. I've gone as high as 5 plugs previously in an immersion chilled beer and barely had a leaf come through. I reckon everything's more inclined to stay in suspension when the wort's hot. :unsure: 

Stuster. I think you may well be right. I made up for it afterwards though. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## Phrak

I've got a quick question about no-chill that I've been thinking about for a while now. (Apologies if it's already been answered)

Does the extra time it takes to cool the wort affect the hop bitterness levels? 

Logic would suggest the extra time would make the wort more bitter, and also affect flavour and aroma levels. But is this true in practice?

Tim.


----------



## kungy

One thing i've done to remove the blockage when filling the cubes with hot wort is to kink the hose creating a blockage then squeezing it to pump the wort back into the kettle, helping to remove a blockage. 

Its a bit weird to explain, but if you kink the hose when filled with hot wort you'll see what i mean when you see the wort and flowers get squeezed backwards and forwards pretty quickly.

The problem with this method though is that hop flowers can get transfered to the primary, and so you can have issues with blockages if racking from primary to secondary/bottling bucket.

So in short you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't

Will


----------



## big d

From what im reading and hearing i believe the no chiller method will become very popular if the impending water restrictions down in the southern states bite real hard.
Ive only done a few no chiller brews and so far the results are reasonable but will plan on doing some more for experiments sake plus the fact i will end up on tank water.

Cheers
Big D


----------



## Hutch

Phrak said:


> Does the extra time it takes to cool the wort affect the hop bitterness levels?



Interesting point you raise Tim - in my experience I did not notice any difference when I did a double batch, half of which was chilled, and the other half no-chiller, pitched a week later.

However, I suspect that if you add a significant amount of late hops, or into the cube itself (sort of like a hop-back), and fill when still close to boiling, you might increase the IBU's. A work mate of mine did this last weekend, and he recons its MUCH higher than the 42 IBU's he was aiming for. And he only threw 20gm Amarillo into the cube, and syphoned soon after flame-out. It certainly remains hot for a long time, so you would expect SOME additional bittering to occur.

I wonder how bitterness extraction works for temperatures lower than 100deg C??
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hutch.


----------



## Phrak

Hutch, MAH looks like he's answered our question in the other No Chiller thread:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=152376

Tim.


----------



## Batz

I took a while to convince me I admit.
But now I use the 'no chill' more than I chill using my CCFC,I am very happy with the results.
Flash chiller bought from MoreBeer just sitting there these days,as the weather warms up I may have to go back to using it again.

I think chillers are one expense a new brewer could do without for a while.

Batz


----------



## devo

I did my first no chill "czech pilsner" on the weekend purely out of concern for how much water I was wasting with my emmersion chiller method....so far so good.


----------



## browndog

The no-chill method is perfect when using a hop sock. I after whirlpooling and letting rest for 15min I drain straight to my fermenter and the wort is beautifully clear. I let it sit overnight and pitch the following day. Too easy.


cheers

Browndog


----------



## Boots

A while back i did a no-chill brew (Big Brew Day 06 - Poor Richard's Ale) it sat in the no-chill cube for at least 6 weeks, more likely 2 months.

It placed second in the sabsosa Specialty category on the weekend with an ave score of 40.
Everyone who has tried it has commented on how clean tasting it is so i see no problem at all with no chill. It has to be said though, that it was not a hop driven beer at all. mid 30 IBU with no hops after 30 mins. It did retain the molasses aroma quite well though.

I do reckon that hoppy beers may suffer ... but I'll soon know. I did a Northdown Hopburst English pale ale that has been in the no chill cube for at least 2-3 months already and i still haven't pitched.

Can't see myself bothering to waste all that water just to get my beer down to 35 degrees to often.


----------



## DJR

Hey all

Just thought i'd include a couple of pictures of the "No-chill Tightass Aeration method" that gets good results. Basically get a 5cm long piece of racking tube, put some cuts or drill some small holes in it, put it on the end of a bottling wand stuck into the tap, and pour into the fermenter. The liquid flow will cause venturis (gaps of vacuum) in the holes and aerate the wort on its way to the fermenter. The wand and the tube should be thoroughly sterilised just to make sure.

Here is the pic of the tube with no wort running yet. It's on an angle because the stupid tap was leaking at the right orientation.

Note that this shows the wort coming COLD out of the tube, as this has been cooled overnight in the cube it's coming out of.





Here is it running




Here is the foam that comes of it... impressive for a simple, 10c set up. (note that the fermenter is not full yet, it's only at about 17 out of 21L. When i put the lid on the foam was at the lid)


----------



## Darren

Nice way to make Sherry!

cheers

Darren


----------



## DJR

Darren said:


> Nice way to make Sherry!
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren

How would i make sherry? The wort doesn't contain alcohol at that point - i don't see how it would be different to using an aeration stone?

The beers i have used this method on (4 now) have all been fine, the oldest one is now 3 months old and is not showing any oxidation problems.


----------



## Kai

I think maybe Darren thought you were running it through hot like that, rather than cold from the cube.

I use a similar aeration method to yours, I'll call it the lazy ass method. Similar principle, just skip the valve & tube and drop it straight into the fermenter


----------



## Darren

At first I did think you were adding the wort hot, but then I realised it was from the "chill-cube".

Isn't it better to airate your starter rather than your wort?

cheers

Darren


----------



## DJR

Darren said:


> At first I did think you were adding the wort hot, but then I realised it was from the "chill-cube".
> 
> Isn't it better to airate your starter rather than your wort?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Aha that explains it. Yes the wort was at about 17C so no HSA risks.

I reckon it can't hurt to aerate both anyway. The starter was a 700mL well aerated started of WLP036, can't hurt to give it a bit more so it can reproduce to suit 23L properly.

I did have a chat to Matt Donellan of St Peters about it and his main concern with the ESB Fresh wort kits he does was adequate aeration - when i mentioned this to him he agreed it would be a good idea. Of course it doesn't beat an aeration stone but it helps.


----------



## Darren

DJR,
Airation like that will end up with high bacterial/wild-yeast loads. You are exposing almost every drop of that wort to the environment. 

You shouldn't forget that the only reason bigger breweries use airation stones is because they cannot swirl their tanks if needed (and seldom is given a healthy starter)

Drop it gently, keep it clean and it will be a better beer.


cheers

Darren


----------



## DJR

Darren

Point taken - i can see that there may be a risk of spoilage from the air that is being sucked in to the venturis. Haven't had a problem yet though so fingers crossed.

We are homebrewers and anything goes that makes good beer


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> Isn't it better to airate your starter rather than your wort?



I have heard that before, daz. However I wouldn't be confident that i could get enough air into my starter for adequate aeration just by shaking so dropping it is for me.


----------



## Darren

Kai,

I either use dry yeast or when using liquid yeast make a small beer as a starter . Keg that batch then drop the next wort gently onto a cleaned up cake from a previous batch http://www.wyeastlab.com/hbrew/hbyewash.htm.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Kai

Too much work for my bones, though I do like the idea of two batches of beer instead of one.


----------



## mje1980

That's it, i've read enough, im doing it!!. Gunna get a cube from bunnings, and put my cfc in plastic in the shed. I really like the fact that if i have a free week, i can brew a couple of batches, and store them for a few weeks in a cube, then, if i get busy, all i need to do is just make a strarter, and dump a cube on top. Too easy, saves a LOT of water too. I guess running it into the cube hot, you would have to do it gently, and not aerate, until you pour it out of the cube cold, on top of the yeast. 

CHEERS


----------



## Duff

mje1980 said:


> That's it, i've read enough, im doing it!!. Gunna get a cube from bunnings, and put my cfc in plastic in the shed. I really like the fact that if i have a free week, i can brew a couple of batches, and store them for a few weeks in a cube, then, if i get busy, all i need to do is just make a strarter, and dump a cube on top. Too easy, saves a LOT of water too. I guess running it into the cube hot, you would have to do it gently, and not aerate, until you pour it out of the cube cold, on top of the yeast.
> 
> CHEERS



You won't regret it. When I'm not using the 15L cube in between use, I just fill it with a bleach solution to keep it clean.


----------



## timmy

Ive only done one no chill, it was also the best hefeweizen ive done yet ( but I'll put that down to good weyermann malt and a decoction) . When the warm weather comes around and the Canberra water temps come up again, the CFWC is getting mothballed and no chilling my way thru summer.


----------



## Lukes

Boots said:


> A while back i did a no-chill brew (Big Brew Day 06 - Poor Richard's Ale) it sat in the no-chill cube for at least 6 weeks, more likely 2 months.
> It placed second in the sabsosa Specialty category on the weekend with an ave score of 40.
> Everyone who has tried it has commented on how clean tasting it is so i see no problem at all with no chill. It has to be said though, that it was not a hop driven beer at all. mid 30 IBU with no hops after 30 mins. It did retain the molasses aroma quite well though.



It's good to hear even judges think it's a winner.
 

Luke


----------



## Jazzafish

Have done a few quite a few of these no chillers without a problem :beer: 

However I brewed my first pilsner the other week and have gotten a DMS issue. 
My sanitation is sound, and probally a bit fanatic! 

I put my problem down to forgetting to squeeze out all of the air in the cube. So it is my guess that the headspace in the cube was the cause, not to mention the transporting and splashing that would have had to take place.

:excl: NO HEADGAPS IN CUBES!!!

My first brewing failure :angry:


----------



## Samwise Gamgee

Not a failure, just a learning curve


----------



## timmy

Samwise Gamgee said:


> Not a failure, just a learning curve




Nah, its a failure....................


----------



## sluggerdog

I've done around 10 no chill brews now but have not once squeezed the ari out of the cube, why does this need to be done?

All 10 brews came out just as I wanted them too...


----------



## Samwise Gamgee

Mainly to prevent oxidisation if the cube gets moved around therefore splashing internally.

I'm sure there are probably a couple of other reasons too.


----------



## Adamt

Was talking to someone about no chill the other day, I decided I wouldn't even bother racking to a jerry, just leave the pot on the stand where it is, cover it and leave it until its cool. This is mainly due to me being a bit of an unco and not liking the thought of syphoning, especially boiling hot wort.

Only reason I'm bringing this up, is there any problems with leaving wort on the hot break material? I've read of people doing it before, but is there actually any possible theoretical problems?

-Adam


----------



## Bobby

doubt leaving it on the break material does any damge. i actually drain all the contents of my kettle into my no chill cube and i dont have any probs.


----------



## Gerard_M

I have just topped up my large fermentor with another 22litres of ND Pale. This batch was transferred straight from the kettle to a keg as it was the only thing that I had that was sterile. Its been waiting about 4 weeks, looked & smelt great. This brewing at home is getting to be fun again.
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## dubzau

I've gone back thru some other threads about the "no chiller" method. Some people have talked about the advantage of this method being "removal by racking of all the cold break".

I don't get this so maybe somebody can explain? To get "cold break" you need to rapidly force-cool the wort. Noonan, in New Brewing Lager Beer, under "Poor Cold Break" (page 249) writes "Wort cooled too slowly". All brewing literature suggests that wort must be cooled rapidly.

Another reason for cooling rapidly - other than Cold Break - is that DMS, which is released during the boil, begins to form again as soon as the wort is taken off the boil. Thus, leaving the wort to cool slowly in a closed vessel will cause significantly elevated levels of DMS (not a problem with some malts, but a problem for pilseners). 

I have not tried this method, tho I have used a settling tank to remove cold break after force-cooling - perhaps the brewing gurus are wrong?


----------



## Darren

Bud said:


> I've gone back thru some other threads about the "no chiller" method.
> 
> 
> I have not tried this method, tho I have used a settling tank to remove cold break after force-cooling - perhaps the brewing gurus are wrong?




More likely some lazy brewers with no sense of taste are clinging to false beliefs.

cheers

Darren


----------



## johnno

Darren said:


> Bud said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've gone back thru some other threads about the "no chiller" method.
> 
> 
> I have not tried this method, tho I have used a settling tank to remove cold break after force-cooling - perhaps the brewing gurus are wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More likely some lazy brewers with no sense of taste are clinging to false beliefs.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
Click to expand...



Out of curiosity did any No Chiller beers place in the recent SA comp?


cheers
johnno


----------



## Darren

Good question Johnno,

I got some BAD DMS in the flight I judged though.

cheers

Darren


----------



## johnno

johnno said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bud said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've gone back thru some other threads about the "no chiller" method.
> 
> 
> I have not tried this method, tho I have used a settling tank to remove cold break after force-cooling - perhaps the brewing gurus are wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More likely some lazy brewers with no sense of taste are clinging to false beliefs.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity did any No Chiller beers place in the recent SA comp?
> 
> 
> cheers
> johnno
Click to expand...



I would like to bring this up to the top as I am still curious if anyone entered any "no chill" beers in the SA or any other comp.

It would be interesting to see the results.

cheers
johnno


----------



## DJR

johnno said:


> I would like to bring this up to the top as I am still curious if anyone entered any "no chill" beers in the SA or any other comp.
> 
> It would be interesting to see the results.
> 
> cheers
> johnno



From up a bit



Boots said:


> A while back i did a no-chill brew (Big Brew Day 06 - Poor Richard's Ale) it sat in the no-chill cube for at least 6 weeks, more likely 2 months.
> 
> It placed second in the sabsosa Specialty category on the weekend with an ave score of 40.



Here we go again!


----------



## goatherder

Bud said:


> I've gone back thru some other threads about the "no chiller" method. Some people have talked about the advantage of this method being "removal by racking of all the cold break".
> 
> I don't get this so maybe somebody can explain? To get "cold break" you need to rapidly force-cool the wort. Noonan, in New Brewing Lager Beer, under "Poor Cold Break" (page 249) writes "Wort cooled too slowly". All brewing literature suggests that wort must be cooled rapidly.
> 
> Another reason for cooling rapidly - other than Cold Break - is that DMS, which is released during the boil, begins to form again as soon as the wort is taken off the boil. Thus, leaving the wort to cool slowly in a closed vessel will cause significantly elevated levels of DMS (not a problem with some malts, but a problem for pilseners).
> 
> I have not tried this method, tho I have used a settling tank to remove cold break after force-cooling - perhaps the brewing gurus are wrong?



Hey there Bud

The racking of the cold break is an advantage for those using a plate or counterflow chiller. Using either of these methods, the cold break is formed as the wort is cooled and thus ends up in the fermenter. When you no-chill the cold break still forms - slowly however. When you dump the brew from the no-chill cube into the fermenter, you can take the opportunity to leave the break behind. I have seen this in action when I did a no-chill brew myself.

The DMS debate was done to death in the original thread, with the no-chillers reporting no adverse DMS problems and the no-chill skeptics talking a lot of theory but not actually trying anything.

The summary is that bunch of people with a wide variety of brewing experience have tried this method and reported good results. A number of "fresh wort kits" available from LHBS's use this method also, and the users of these report good results. A couple of people have reported bad results but I believe these were infections caused by inadequate sanitation of the no-chill cube.

I see the evidence in support of no-chill building but not yet conclusive. I don't think the DMS issue has been solved, as it has been reported that many people do not detect DMS very well. As johnno has mentioned, some comp results from no-chill beers would help to settle this issue.

Give it a try yourself if you are curious, it's the only way to find out.

GH


----------



## Kai

I always get a lot of break material in the bottom of the hot wort cube once it has cooled, even when nothing but clear wort runs into it. Whether or not it's as much break as from a rapid chill, I cannot say.


----------



## Weizguy

Just pitched the YeastLabs Pils yeast into the Nth German Pils wort (no-chill into fermentor, and then into fridge at 10-12C) on 20/8.

Started a 500ml batch of yeast in a 600 ml PET bottle. Then prepped a 3 litre fruit juice bottle, and aseptically (within the capacity of my kitchen and my Uni Biology studies) poured it into the fruit juice bottle. Next, I went to the fridge, and used a cotton bud sprayed with bleach solution to clean the fermentor tap, subsequently topping up the yeast culture bottle with the wort that it would go back into.

At pitching, I pre-sampled the wort, as there would not be much point pitching into an infected beer. The wort was quite clear after sitting in the fridge all that time. The beer had no head from contamination and was not perciptibly off-tasting...so I pitched the yeast,and popped it back into the fridge, and turnned the thermostat down to about 10C.

No DMS yet.
Darren, you have lots of opinions. (ha ha ha)

Beeerz
Seth 

Edit - Spellig & word replaced only


----------



## dubzau

I wish I had 10 bucks for every time I'd heard a homebrewer say "such and such makes no difference"! This belief (that nothing makes a difference) is what results in so many crap homebrews - and very rarely is a home brewed beer of commercial quality. Fortunately for many home brewers, they develop a taste for off flavours - which they call simply "flavour". "I don't mind cloudy beer", you'll hear them say, "the chunky bits are "flavour""!

Well, I hate to tell you guys, but all of the little things do make a big difference. That's why most home brewed beers - including many of the ones that win prizes in comps - are just rubbish. Whether it's rehydrating yeast, aeration, pitching at the correct temp, rapidly chilling the wort - it all makes a difference!! 

Then again, many people choose to believe in alternative therapies too, even when they contradict each other. Whatever works for ya!!


----------



## Stuster

Nice attitude, Bud. So you are saying the same as Darren, perhaps. All these no-chill brewers are just lazy brewers with no taste buds. Not sure if you read DJR's post above with Boots' quote. Not sure if a 40 score is good enough?  

Many of the brewers who are using this method have been brewing for many years, do have prizes to show it, do have taste buds etc. I'm not sure if you've tried an ESB fresh wort kit, but these are also no-chill. The DMS issue was covered in the original thread, but basically with the malts we have here, the DMS precursor will be at levels that will give DMS below the taste threshold if you do an adequate boil, ideally 90 minutes. The cold break issue - I trust that most brewers can tell if the beer is clear or not.  Of course, there is always the ever present danger of botulism. :lol: 

Edit: Steps off soap box, drinks cool, refreshing no-chill beer, weakness and paralysis set in.


----------



## Darren

Stuster,

A beer entered in the class of specialty beers and as a "poor richard" would be expected to have all the faults caused by a slow chill and uncontrolled ferment. 
Now I am not saying my beers are the best on this earth. What I am saying is there are enough reasons why you might make a bad beer already. Why add to it?

cheers

Darren

(Seth you are very opinionated yourself)


----------



## dubzau

Stuster,

no, what I'm saying is just what I said - that most home brew is bad beer. There are a variety of reasons for why you can get away with the no chill method, and still produce a drinkable beer, but the mechanism of cold break, chill haze, etc, is well understood. Why indulge in bad brewing practice when it is so unnecessary?

http://www.beer-brewing.com/apex/wort_cool...k_formation.htm 

But in the immortal words of George Costanza, it's not a lie if you believe it's the truth. Whatever works for you.

Cheers
Bud


----------



## Pumpy

Some people just dont like change .

Save water !!

Go the No Chill!!!!


Pumpy


----------



## matti

argumentative lot are we HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE
BUD "WEISER" at it again lol
But I must agree since I began with partial I always apply the best cold break possible with my crude equipments
Here's one 4 u
I put the 20L kettle with 10-12 litre wort in sink full of chipped ice.
Drain the water and add new when its hot 2-3 times.
Brings it down to 40ish in 10 minutes rougly.
Then I syphone the wort in to chilled fermenter and simultainious add remaining liqour at 0 degrees.
Voila! 24-28 degrees in 20 minutes and a well aerated wort to pitch the yeast in.
Every one for their own.
PS. the beer taste great and never had any problem with chill haze
I also use whirlflock in boil and fining for a week prior to bottling.
matti


----------



## Stuster

Bud said:


> most home brew is bad beer



Why are you here then? :blink: 

I'm with you, Pumpy. Change is very threatening to some.


----------



## DJR

Bud said:


> I wish I had 10 bucks for every time I'd heard a homebrewer say "such and such makes no difference"! This belief (that nothing makes a difference) is what results in so many crap homebrews - and very rarely is a home brewed beer of commercial quality. Fortunately for many home brewers, they develop a taste for off flavours - which they call simply "flavour". "I don't mind cloudy beer", you'll hear them say, "the chunky bits are "flavour""!
> 
> Well, I hate to tell you guys, but all of the little things do make a big difference. That's why most home brewed beers - including many of the ones that win prizes in comps - are just rubbish. Whether it's rehydrating yeast, aeration, pitching at the correct temp, rapidly chilling the wort - it all makes a difference!!
> 
> Then again, many people choose to believe in alternative therapies too, even when they contradict each other. Whatever works for ya!!



What the hell are you doing on a home brew forum then with an attitude like that? Just go buy a case of budweiser or something. So i guess you've made the PERFECT homebrew and are willing to share the secrets of how to make beer better than everybody?

Long live No-chill.

Short live stubborn attitudes.

I can't believe i'm feeding trolls. :unsure:


----------



## matti

Let's start a "I hate BUD weiser" fan club :huh: 
Then again LETS NOT


----------



## Darren

matti said:


> argumentative lot are we HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE
> BUD "WEISER" at it again lol
> But I must agree since I began with partial I always apply the best cold break possible with my crude equipments
> Here's one 4 u
> I put the 20L kettle with 10-12 litre wort in sink full of chipped ice.
> Drain the water and add new when its hot 2-3 times.
> Brings it down to 40ish in 10 minutes rougly.
> Then I syphone the wort in to chilled fermenter and simultainious add remaining liqour at 0 degrees.
> Voila! 24-28 degrees in 20 minutes and a well aerated wort to pitch the yeast in.
> Every one for their own.
> PS. the beer taste great and never had any problem with chill haze
> I also use whirlflock in boil and fining for a week prior to bottling.
> matti



Is producing ice an effective way to reduce global wastages? A freezer isn't magic you know? How much water was used to drive those turbines at the power plant? Is it more efficient than the RE-USABLE water generated by cooling. 

Me, I use my cooling water to clean-up after brew-day. You guys who are saving water by no-chill probably get the hose on the tun and boiler in the end of the brew-day, saving NOUGHT. 

Other ideas for the uses of the brew water are, washing clothes as the water is already warm or alternatively, collect it to water your plants.

Btw matti, I can chill 65litres of boiling wort in a similar amount of time uses 150 litres of water if I am slow and lazy. 

How much ice and time would it take to chill 65 litres at summer temps (30 C)? Guest Lurker?

cheers

Darren


----------



## matti

A [email protected]#$ load mate.
Wheres that DOG?
He might give you a scientific answer.
woff woff
how long is a thread?
Is universe round?
good night you tannin drinkers


----------



## goatherder

Sorry bud, but you aren't going to get a lot of symapthy here by simply sprouting theories derived from large-scale commercial brewing practices. Homebrewing is different from macro brewing in both the process and the final product. What works for one may not work for the other and vice versa.

If you are so certain of your theories then please do us all a service and test them. Do a no-chill brew and a chill brew and compare them, side by side if possible. Tell us what you find. Other brewers here have done this, thus they are able to talk from experience. Then everyone can learn from it.


----------



## Ken Man Do

Bud said:


> Stuster,
> 
> no, what I'm saying is just what I said - that most home brew is bad beer. There are a variety of reasons for why you can get away with the no chill method, and still produce a drinkable beer, but the mechanism of cold break, chill haze, etc, is well understood. Why indulge in bad brewing practice when it is so unnecessary?
> 
> http://www.beer-brewing.com/apex/wort_cool...k_formation.htm
> 
> But in the immortal words of George Costanza, it's not a lie if you believe it's the truth. Whatever works for you.
> 
> Cheers
> Bud


Some of you guys are completely missing the point.

First off, the apparent success of no-chill does NOT mean laziness or bad practice. It simply means that perhaps we have been misinformed, somehow, someway, in regard to the necessity of rapidly cooling wort. This is obvious because too many brewers are successfully using the no-chill method! How can you not see something that is right in your face??? And how about you guys that can wort for starters. They are mini no-chill brews, and what do you see in those jars? Break material sitting below perfectly clear wort! Positive no-chill evidence right in front of your eyes!

Second, no-chill may turn out to be not "bad brewing practice", but rather good brewing practice. Properly done, there is LESS chance of infection (and less messing around with equipment).

Third, you have to admit that the motive of some naysayers is a selfish one. Those brewers who fancy themselves all-knowledgeable may well feel a threat to their status as purveyers of "expert" brewing advice. It's a human nature thing and perfectly understandable. As another poster stated, some people hate change. :blink:


----------



## Gerard_M

Stuster said:


> Why are you here then? :blink:





DJR said:


> What the hell are you doing on a home brew forum then with an attitude like that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bud said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had 10 bucks for every time I'd heard a homebrewer say "such and such makes no difference"!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is the answer guys, give him $10 and he will go away!
> 
> Maybe if we give him $20 he will take Darren with him!
> 
> I am going to go have a drink of water, if there is any left.
> 
> Cheers
> Gerard
> 
> I really have to learn how to use that quote thing properly!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Thommo

This thread has, in my opinion, debunked the theory that wort needs to be cooled quickly.

Then again, I don't believe HSA exists either h34r: 

Thommo


----------



## Murray

So apparently this is all about open-minded no-chill brewers who happen to flame anyone who dares to voice contrary opinions? Given accusations being levelled, this seems a tad hypocritical.


----------



## matti

"the needle returned to the start of the somg and we all sing along as before" Del amitri
I suppose that a no chill method is great for ales and alike and lager and pale ales benefit more from chill break Yeah? 
Duh Darren u shit stirrer  
That why the world isn't flat any more and maybe GOD do exist and it is not you  
matti


----------



## Duff

Murray said:


> So apparently this is all about open-minded no-chill brewers who happen to flame anyone who dares to voice contrary opinions? Given accusations being levelled, this seems a tad hypocritical.



No. It's about open minded no-chill brewers who have used an immersion or CFC in the past, who now have tried no-chill brewing and have not detected any negative difference in quality. This is despite what a minority few (who refuse to try it - therefore not open minded) continue to maintain it is detrimental to the finished product.


----------



## Maxt

I am new to grain brewing and have only chilled using a tub of ice water. 

What I want from this thread is differing opinions, but preferably from brewers who have a lot of experience, and who have (in an unbiased way), made two batches in a near identicle manner, and can comment on the similarities/differences.

To just bag each other for having a different opinion isn't all that helpful, but it seems to me that the ones who have invested the most thought and effort into TESTING their theories, are the no-chill brigade.

I think it's a bit arrogant to believe that just because a book says it's so, then other people's experience should be rubbished. To the anti no-chill squad. You have made your point. Are you going to keep harping on until everyone comes around to your way of thinking?

You remind me of those Jehovas that keep coming to your house even though you have politely listened to their ideas and told them you are not interested.

"If someone believes they are right, it doesn't make you wrong". 
Ancient ACT brewing proverb


----------



## matti

I tell you a secret Maxt>>>>>

It is mainly a cosmetic thing this chilling .
If you closed your eyes and tasted one next to the other you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference.

As long as you don't get the trub from the Kettle and your husks remain in the mashfilters you'd be fine. 
I am sure these no-chillers would agree.
matti


----------



## Boots

Darren said:


> Stuster,
> 
> A beer entered in the class of specialty beers and as a "poor richard" would be expected to have all the faults caused by a slow chill and uncontrolled ferment.



Darren did you judge the specialty category? If you did i'm looking forward to seeing your comments on the beer and why you reached the above conclusions. Fair enough as general comments for a Historic beer, but not IMO to my particular beer. ... and if you did judge I'd expect you to give the brewer the respect of letting them get their score sheets first before making statements of it's merit on a public forum.

If you didn't judge it, then your comments are purely speculative and have no foundation - and are being used purely to drag out an argument incorrectly.

Which part of my 18degree ferment (Wyeast ESB) would you call uncontrolled.

There are plenty of people on this forum who have tried the beer and funnily none made comments anything like yours. 

I don't feel like i have to defend my beer ... but parents often get defensive of their children


----------



## bugwan

Well I'm setting up my AG brewery as we speak (just running off extracts and partials in the meantime).

This positive feedback for the no-chill idea is heartwarming (and potentially wallet-warming). The price of an immersion chiller is getting up there these days (as the price of copper soars), so any shortcuts I can take in my setup (without affecting my end product) are welcome. The only issue I have is that I'm a gadget man, so I will more than likely end up with an immersion/CF chiller at some stage...simply to satisfy my inner geek.

I find it mildly amusing that people are getting so agro about the whole thing, but I guess that's opinions for you...

Good brewing, whatever your method.


----------



## DJR

Murray said:


> So apparently this is all about open-minded no-chill brewers who happen to flame anyone who dares to voice contrary opinions? Given accusations being levelled, this seems a tad hypocritical.



If these guys actually tried no-chill or had physical evidence it makes a so-called "lesser beer", exhibiting all the textbook problems, then we'd be happy to hear it. As it is, all they can come up with is "you'll die from botulism", "there's tons of DMS in every mouthful", "the book says chill quickly otherwise trub doesn't separate" ,etc etc - all points that have been rebuffed in the last pages of the thread. Remember the thread is for users of the nochill method not non-users.

I gotta say, i'm quite enjoying the new reasons why No-chill is bad every night....

Quite looking forward to the Bathurst & NSW HB champs, i wonder how many nochill beers will be entered?


----------



## lou

back to the actual topic of no chill brews

I chucked 25 g of aroma hops in my last cube. 
this beer will be ready to drink in a week 
what re other peoples experiences of doing this - does it add much flavour/ aroma - does it work -is it worth doing - i will report back with my experiences soon 

lou


----------



## Kai

I've done that a couple times, lou. Usually just after I've forgotten to add the finishing hops to the kettle.

Seems to preserve the flavour quite well, but I suspect it elevates the bitterness a little.


----------



## Darren

Boots said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stuster,
> 
> A beer entered in the class of specialty beers and as a "poor richard" would be expected to have all the faults caused by a slow chill and uncontrolled ferment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren did you judge the specialty category? If you did i'm looking forward to seeing your comments on the beer and why you reached the above conclusions. Fair enough as general comments for a Historic beer, but not IMO to my particular beer. ... and if you did judge I'd expect you to give the brewer the respect of letting them get their score sheets first before making statements of it's merit on a public forum.
> 
> If you didn't judge it, then your comments are purely speculative and have no foundation - and are being used purely to drag out an argument incorrectly.
> 
> Which part of my 18degree ferment (Wyeast ESB) would you call uncontrolled.
> 
> I don't feel like i have to defend my beer ... but parents often get defensive of their children
Click to expand...



Boots,

You bought it up that your historical beer went well in a comp. Just putting your post into perspective.

No I didn't judge it. Just purely making the observation that it was entered in the specialty beers as a historic beer. If I were to judge such a beer I would expect it to be full of funky flavours otherwise it wouldn't be true to style, like a ginger beer with no ginger.

Finally, why didn't you enter it into a more conventional classsuch as English ale or did you?

The only class I judged was dark ale. Would be interested to hear how many no chills were in there and how they went!

cheers


Darren


----------



## bigfridge

goatherder said:


> Sorry bud, but you aren't going to get a lot of symapthy here by simply sprouting theories derived from large-scale commercial brewing practices. Homebrewing is different from macro brewing in both the process and the final product. What works for one may not work for the other and vice versa.
> 
> If you are so certain of your theories then please do us all a service and test them. Do a no-chill brew and a chill brew and compare them, side by side if possible. Tell us what you find. Other brewers here have done this, thus they are able to talk from experience. Then everyone can learn from it.



I agree with you Goatherder - Here is one datapoint for the discussion.

NNL Beer Supplies makes both beer and brewery wort packs. I have tasted the Sparkling Blonde fermented in the brewery and sold in pubs and the wort pack fermented at home.

They taste and look identical.

I think that this thread reached the point long ago where there are those that use the No-Chill method and like it, and those that haven't used it because they don't like it. And they are never going to agree.

The precipitation of cold Trub is a complex issue as it involves the precipitation of proteins with different properties, and these properties change as they oxidise. Bud has selectively quoted from a non-scientific book, but it may be usefull to remember that before there were chillers, breweries in Belgian and California cooled their worts overnight in shallow coolships. We also need to remember that DMS is a flavour characteristic in Lagers and not present in Ale malts.

Now lets get back to brewing and drinking good beer.

David


----------



## Weizguy

DJR said:


> <abbrev>
> 
> I gotta say, i'm quite enjoying the new reasons why No-chill is bad every night....
> 
> Quite looking forward to the Bathurst & NSW HB champs, i wonder how many nochill beers will be entered?
> </abbrev>



Is it cool to ask for a checkbox for No-chill to be included on the NSW State comp entry form?

That will help to make a few of us happy (such as Darren and I), as well as contribute hard evidence to this thread.

Seth (BJCP trainee)


----------



## Darren

bigfridge said:


> goatherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry bud, but you aren't going to get a lot of symapthy here by simply sprouting theories derived from large-scale commercial brewing practices. Homebrewing is different from macro brewing in both the process and the final product. What works for one may not work for the other and vice versa.
> 
> If you are so certain of your theories then please do us all a service and test them. Do a no-chill brew and a chill brew and compare them, side by side if possible. Tell us what you find. Other brewers here have done this, thus they are able to talk from experience. Then everyone can learn from it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you Goatherder - Here is one datapoint for the discussion.
> 
> NNL Beer Supplies makes both beer and brewery wort packs. I have tasted the Sparkling Blonde fermented in the brewery and sold in pubs and the wort pack fermented at home.
> 
> They taste and look identical.
> 
> I think that this thread reached the point long ago where there are those that use the No-Chill method and like it, and those that haven't used it because they don't like it. And they are never going to agree.
> 
> The precipitation of cold Trub is a complex issue as it involves the precipitation of proteins with different properties, and these properties change as they oxidise. Bud has selectively quoted from a non-scientific book, but it may be usefull to remember that before there were chillers, breweries in Belgian and California cooled their worts overnight in shallow coolships. We also need to remember that DMS is a flavour characteristic in Lagers and not present in Ale malts.
> 
> 
> David
Click to expand...



Hi David,
Do NNL beer put the wort packs in new (essentially sterile) or second hand fermenters/jerry's? Most homebrewers using this method are definately re-using their containers so infection risk is increased.

Now there must be a reason why belgian and early american breweries used cool ships in the first place. I guess it was their understanding of the importance of rapidly cooling the wort. 

Incidently, very few of these breweries exist today due mainly to the inconsistency in the drinkablility of the beer cooled in open pans.

Finally, 

DMS in beer is often the result of infection and not always malt derived

 

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

http://www.boulderbeer.com/Newsoct28.htm

cheers

Darren (trying to make better beer)


----------



## Weizguy

Darren,

I expect the reason they wanted to cool the beer quickly was the same primary reason commercial brewers do it today - Turnover!
Not really related to DMS etc, although I agree that might be a secondary or minor excuse.

BTW Darren, you're welcome to your opinion, and mine as well. :lol: 

Seth out 

* edit - missing words


----------



## Darren

Spoilage of wort by temperature resistant microbes would be the main reason for cooling quickly. Ie get it down to yeast optimal temperature as quick as possible.

but that is just my opinion.

cheers

Darren


----------



## MAH

Just a quick question for all those who spout commercial practices as the only way to brew and suggest that they rapidly chill their wort. Can you please tell me how long it takes Tooheys to chill a batch of their wort? Being able to produce 2 million stubbies per day, I'm guessing their kettles are HUGE. How long does it sit at near boiling temperatures before it's finally chilled? I'm pretty sure it's not 20-30mins. So if their beer is sitting at high temperatures for a prolonged time, why don't they suffer from terrible off flavours like DMS?

Just a thought.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Darren

MAH said:


> Just a quick question for all those who spout commercial practices as the only way to brew and suggest that they rapidly chill their wort. Can you please tell me how long it takes Tooheys to chill a batch of their wort? Being able to produce 2 million stubbies per day, I'm guessing their kettles are HUGE. How long does it sit at near boiling temperatures before it's finally chilled? I'm pretty sure it's not 20-30mins. So if their beer is sitting at high temperatures for a prolonged time, why don't they suffer from terrible off flavours like DMS?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH




MAH,

Not sure how long it takes! The plate chiller at the West End brewery was taller than me and was about 50 cm thick. Chilled water was run through the chiller to get the wort to lager temps. The kettle right alongside looked comparatively similar in size to your average HB CFWC (HB chiller would be bigger in ratio).

At a guess I would say an hour at most! Certainly not days.


cheers

Darren

EDIT: The kettle wasn't as big as i thought it would be. They had three of them I think. Now the lagering tanks were huge


----------



## Uncle Fester

Darren said:


> bigfridge said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goatherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry bud, but you aren't going to get a lot of symapthy here by simply sprouting theories derived from large-scale commercial brewing practices. Homebrewing is different from macro brewing in both the process and the final product. What works for one may not work for the other and vice versa.
> 
> If you are so certain of your theories then please do us all a service and test them. Do a no-chill brew and a chill brew and compare them, side by side if possible. Tell us what you find. Other brewers here have done this, thus they are able to talk from experience. Then everyone can learn from it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you Goatherder - Here is one datapoint for the discussion.
> 
> NNL Beer Supplies makes both beer and brewery wort packs. I have tasted the Sparkling Blonde fermented in the brewery and sold in pubs and the wort pack fermented at home.
> 
> They taste and look identical.
> 
> I think that this thread reached the point long ago where there are those that use the No-Chill method and like it, and those that haven't used it because they don't like it. And they are never going to agree.
> 
> The precipitation of cold Trub is a complex issue as it involves the precipitation of proteins with different properties, and these properties change as they oxidise. Bud has selectively quoted from a non-scientific book, but it may be usefull to remember that before there were chillers, breweries in Belgian and California cooled their worts overnight in shallow coolships. We also need to remember that DMS is a flavour characteristic in Lagers and not present in Ale malts.
> 
> 
> David
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi David,
> Do NNL beer put the wort packs in new (essentially sterile) or second hand fermenters/jerry's? Most homebrewers using this method are definately re-using their containers so infection risk is increased.
> 
> Now there must be a reason why belgian and early american breweries used cool ships in the first place. I guess it was their understanding of the importance of rapidly cooling the wort.
> 
> Incidently, very few of these breweries exist today due mainly to the inconsistency in the drinkablility of the beer cooled in open pans.
> 
> Finally,
> 
> DMS in beer is often the result of infection and not always malt derived
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
> 
> http://www.boulderbeer.com/Newsoct28.htm
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren (trying to make better beer)
Click to expand...


C'mon Darren, we have heard this rhetoric over and over....

What are you suggesting? Single use fermenters, lest we place ourselves at elevated risk of infection from the previous brew?

Give me a break. I think that the average home brewer is conversant enough with sanitisation/steralisation to give the brew a neutral cube to cool in.

Your Flat Earth Society viewpoint on all of this is mundane. Face it, people brew with this method, and they ejoy the results, and also benefit from the easier process. If there were major issues with the method, then they would surely pick up on it, as I'm sure that most brewers are their own harshest critics.

Good enough for St Peters brewery, (and I daresay G&G, although I havent had that confirmed) to no chill their commercial product, and also good enough for <90% of the respondants to this thread, then it's good enough for me, irrespective of what the purists say.


Either simply let it go, or build a bridge. Either way, unless you have tried it and have personal experience to contribute, then give the rest of us a break.


Festa.


----------



## bugwan

MAH said:


> ...please tell me how long it takes Tooheys to chill a batch of their wort? Being able to produce 2 million stubbies per day, I'm guessing their kettles are HUGE. ....
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH



Hi MAH - I don't subscribe to either method at the moment (open minds and all that), so I'm not here to take a side. But in answer to your question, I watched a video on the web recently (possibly copyright infringing) from America's History Channel covering "Modern Marvels - Brewing". Unfortunately, they focused on the Anheuser Busch conglomerate, but some of the history etc was interesting.

Their plate chiller was as big as my old apartment (admittedly small). The fermentation tanks were bigger than any silos I've seen and they bottle about a trillion stubbies per second...ok, now I'm exaggerating.

It seemed from the video that the wort was cooled to pitching temp after just one pass through the radiator-style cooler.

Anyway, at the end of the day, opinions (and perhaps die-hard rules) change in brewing every day. Look at how seriously John Palmer took the physics of the grain bed in the previous issue of his book! Most brewers these days aren't nearly as precious about these details.

It seems that one week's essential tip is next week's no-go zone*.

*I'm not saying that no-chill fits this category necessarily.

Over and out
Bugwan


----------



## Coodgee

my mate who is head brewer at a townsville micro informs me they chill 1700L in just over an hour, which he regards as "way too slow". 

thought it might help people in making up their opinion, as the cooling times of breweries has been mentioned in this thread.


----------



## matti

filter filter filter filter


----------



## Darren

Uncle Fester said:


> C'mon Darren, we have heard this rhetoric over and over....
> 
> What are you suggesting? Single use fermenters, lest we place ourselves at elevated risk of infection from the previous brew?
> 
> Give me a break. I think that the average home brewer is conversant enough with sanitisation/steralisation to give the brew a neutral cube to cool in.
> 
> Good enough for St Peters brewery, (and I daresay G&G, although I havent had that confirmed) to no chill their commercial product, and also good enough for <90% of the respondants to this thread, then it's good enough for me, irrespective of what the purists say.
> 
> 
> Either simply let it go, or build a bridge. Either way, unless you have tried it and have personal experience to contribute, then give the rest of us a break.
> 
> 
> Festa.




Hey Festa,

My only data point on the subject is that I am a professional microbiologist and have been for 20 years.

I KNOW that storing sugar solutions in anything but new (essentially sterile) or sterile containers is poor practice.

But I guess with your hundred (how many??) or so attempts at growing microbes you would be in a position to offer sound advice?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Gerard_M

Darren said:


> Hi David,
> Do NNL beer put the wort packs in new (essentially sterile) or second hand fermenters/jerry's? Most homebrewers using this method are definately re-using their containers so infection risk is increased.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren (trying to make better beer)



So if boiling hot wort into a container that an experienced HB'er considers clean or sterile enough to his or her standards, is considered a no-no in "Dazza World", can I ask what the possible risks are in re-using plastic fermentor's? Surely we must all go for the "Single Use Fermentor" to eliminate the risk of infection from previous brews!

Got to go and order a heap of new fermentors, looks like another busy week! Thanks Daz

cheers
Gerard


----------



## Darren

Gerard_M said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi David,
> Do NNL beer put the wort packs in new (essentially sterile) or second hand fermenters/jerry's? Most homebrewers using this method are definately re-using their containers so infection risk is increased.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren (trying to make better beer)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if boiling hot wort into a container that an experienced HB'er considers clean or sterile enough to his or her standards, is considered a no-no in "Dazza World", can I ask what the possible risks are in re-using plastic fermentor's? Surely we must all go for the "Single Use Fermentor" to eliminate the risk of infection from previous brews!
> 
> Got to go and order a heap of new fermentors, looks like another busy week! Thanks Daz
> 
> cheers
> Gerard
Click to expand...



Gerard,

I think you and many others have missed the point. Many of these no-chill brewers are storing their wort for weeks, by some reports, prior to pitching their yeast.

Now for storage, the fermenter needs to be sterile (not just sanitised) as even very low levels of microbes will flourish with all that sugar and no competition.

If you pitch within a day or so the shear numbers of yeast cells consume all the nutrients and produce ethanol as a by-product therefore retarding the growth of any contaminating "bugs". Under these conditions there is nothing wrong with re-using a sanitised fermenter over and over again.

Now just let me get this right. You are a HB shop owner who advocates the use of second hand fermenters for the STORAGE of wort?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Stoodoo

FFS people, this thread is titled: Users Of The "no Chiller Method. If you haven't used this method, then please, PLEASE don't bother posting your useless information. If you have used the no chiller method, then by all means, post replies, whether they were positive or negative toward this method. I am sick to death of reading replies that come from people who have not even tried this method, yet are willing to crap on about there beliefs. If you want to do that then start up a new thread.

Oh, by the way all of my AG brews have been "no chiller", and I can say that they are some of the best beers I have tasted. I make all my brews in the afternoon, early evening and leave my boiled wort in the boiler overnight to cool, then move it into a fermentor the following morning, pitch yeast and wait. 

Lastly, and quietly........maybe if we ignore him, he'll go away  

Cheers


----------



## Gerard_M

Darren said:


> Gerard_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi David,
> Do NNL beer put the wort packs in new (essentially sterile) or second hand fermenters/jerry's? Most homebrewers using this method are definately re-using their containers so infection risk is increased.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren (trying to make better beer)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if boiling hot wort into a container that an experienced HB'er considers clean or sterile enough to his or her standards, is considered a no-no in "Dazza World", can I ask what the possible risks are in re-using plastic fermentor's? Surely we must all go for the "Single Use Fermentor" to eliminate the risk of infection from previous brews!
> 
> Got to go and order a heap of new fermentors, looks like another busy week! Thanks Daz
> 
> cheers
> Gerard
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gerard,
> 
> I think you and many others have missed the point. Many of these no-chill brewers are storing their wort for weeks, by some reports, prior to pitching their yeast.
> 
> Now for storage, the fermenter needs to be sterile (not just sanitised) as even very low levels of microbes will flourish with all that sugar and no competition.
> 
> If you pitch within a day or so the shear numbers of yeast cells consume all the nutrients and produce ethanol as a by-product therefore retarding the growth of any contaminating "bugs". Under these conditions there is nothing wrong with re-using a sanitised fermenter over and over again.
> 
> Now just let me get this right. You are a HB shop owner who advocates the use of second hand fermenters for the STORAGE of wort?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
Click to expand...



No Darren. I didn't mention STORAGE of wort in fermentors. I was advocating the enviromentally unfriendly method of single use fermentors, which will be on special this week for $35 including airlock grommet tap & sediment reducer. :beer: 
I have just had a taste of Duff's Aust Pale that sat in a cube in my garage for 6 months. Bloody great beer. I would send you a bottle Darren, but I only have 2nd hand bottles, wouldn't want you to get crook!
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Beerpig

I have no need to "chill" or "no chill" ...................... but I'm still loving this thread

Keep up the healthy difference of opinion

Cheers


----------



## Maxt

Darren, do you know of an easy way to sterilize a cube?


----------



## Darren

Sanitise is about as good as you will get. If the cube has handles you will struggle to even sanitise


----------



## Darren

Gerard_M said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gerard_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> No Darren. I didn't mention STORAGE of wort in fermentors. I was advocating the enviromentally unfriendly method of single use fermentors, which will be on special this week for $35 including airlock grommet tap & sediment reducer. :beer:
> I have just had a taste of Duff's Aust Pale that sat in a cube in my garage for 6 months. Bloody great beer. I would send you a bottle Darren, but I only have 2nd hand bottles, wouldn't want you to get crook!
> Cheers
> Gerard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geez, You are a funny bloke Gerard?
> 
> New cube was it?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Darren

I have a suggestion for you no chillers/storers.

Get yourself a small clear sterile tube. 

After a week of storage in the cube take a sample into the tube. Leave the tube on top of your cube a have a look at what happens. If it doesn't start bubbling you have no worries. If it does you have wasted a batch.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Linz

Darren said:


> I have a suggestion for you no chillers/storers.
> 
> Get yourself a small clear sterile tube.
> 
> After a week of storage in the cube take a sample into the tube. Leave the tube on top of your cube a have a look at what happens. If it doesn't start bubbling you have no worries. If it does you have wasted a batch.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




But that would involve opening the cube to collect the sample, thus allowing airbourne contaminants into the cube and infecting the wort.


----------



## Darren

Stoodoo said:


> FFS people, this thread is titled: Users Of The "no Chiller Method. If you haven't used this method, then please, PLEASE don't bother posting your useless information. If you have used the no chiller method, then by all means, post replies, whether they were positive or negative toward this method. I am sick to death of reading replies that come from people who have not even tried this method, yet are willing to crap on about there beliefs. If you want to do that then start up a new thread.
> 
> Oh, by the way all of my AG brews have been "no chiller", and I can say that they are some of the best beers I have tasted. I make all my brews in the afternoon, early evening and leave my boiled wort in the boiler overnight to cool, then move it into a fermentor the following morning, pitch yeast and wait.
> 
> Lastly, and quietly........maybe if we ignore him, he'll go away
> 
> Cheers



Stuster,

Yeah sure I will go away.

Nothing wrong with cooling overnight and pitch the next day. Believe it or not this isn't a new process. I have always chilled my lagers in the fridge overnight to get down to pitching temps.

You problem will occur when daytime temps are 30+. How will you cool to ferment temps? How long will it take under those conditions.

Next you will be arguing that a can of extract and coupla kilos of sugar are the easiest way to produce good beer.

You may consider this useless information but bear in mind newbies to the forum may come in and think that the no-chill method is best practice to produce good beer. Clearly it is not.

Finally, you vocal proponents of the no-chill method should get together and write a manuscript to be submitted to a peer-reviewed beer journal. If you could carry out those experiments and get it accepted into a beer journal, that would give some credibility to the method. 

Good luck

cheers

Darren


----------



## MHB

Darren:-
On this one you are wrong; I agree that in a perfect world the best results would be obtained by boiling, chilling to pitching temperatures and inoculating the wort immediately.
You admit that your brewing technique is adapted from the theoretical optimum, for convenience. Let others make similar choices.
Your point about the handles being a concern I concur with. It is important to fill a cube to capacity (excluding air) and to turn the cube so that the handle and lid area are heated to insure "sterilisation".
Used properly with a clear understanding of the pros and cons; this method provides both home brewers and manufactures with a valuable resource.

I started to work out the number of Pu's that a wort run at 90 C into a cube, that was at 40 C - 6 hours later, the answer is so ridiculously high that I lost interest.

MHB

The following is from a brewing textbook, it relates to packaging finished beer. However the same principals apply to the thermal protection provided to a fresh wort pack or the no-chiller method.


The surest way to provide the customer with beer containing no viable micro-organisms is to treat it at the last possible moment. That is, the beer is treated in its package after closure. The beer is not exposed to the atmosphere until it is consumed. This is achieved by pasteurization (Pasteur, 1876). Pasteurization is the killing of micro-organisms in aqueous solutions by heat. Beer can be pasteurized in bulk while flowing, which is known as flash pasteurization, or in the package, which is known as tunnel pasteurization. Flash pasteurization occurs before the beer is put into its final container and so is an alternative to sterile filtration. Flash pasteurization is usually associated with the preparation of keg beer. Tunnel pasteurization is most commonly used with small-pack beer, either bottles or cans. The theory of pasteurization is common to both systems.

Theory of pasteurization.
The basis of pasteurization is establishing the minimum time and temperature required to destroy all expected biological contaminants at the highest concentrations at which they may occur in filtered beer. Different food products have different requirements for pasteurization, and those that can contain sporforming bacteria require much higher heat treatment than beer. Mixed populations of common brewery contaminating organisms were subject to a range of times and temperatures in beer (Fig. 21.8, known as a lethal rate curve) and were examined for subsequent viability. Typically at temperatures of over 50 C (122 F) an increase in temperature of 7 C (12.5 F) accelerated the rate of cell kill by ten times. 

Therefore:
53 C: minimum time to kill population 56 min. 
60 C: minimum time to kill population 5.6 min.
67 C: minimum time to kill population 0.56 min.

View attachment 9164


One pasteurization unit (PU) for beer has been arbitrarily defined as the biological destruction obtained by holding a beer for one minute at 60 C (140 F) (Del Vecchio et al., 1951). Therefore in Fig. 21.8 the point at which the line crosses the 60 C line Fig. 21.8 
he effect of time and temperature on the viability of a mixed population of yeasts and brewery bacteria. The hatched area shows the range of conditions where all cells are killed (Hough et al., 1982).

gives the thermal resistance of the particular suspension of organisms, this is 5.6 min and so to achieve effective pasteurization the holding time at 60 C (140 F) must exceed 5.6 min. The slope of the line in Fig. 21.8 is known as the Z value. The lethal effect (PU) is simply the product of the lethal rate and the time of application. The lethal effect at various temperatures in a process is additive, therefore the sum of the lethal effect is the quantity of sterilization achieved:

Lethal Effect 
View attachment 9163


Under laboratory conditions beer can be sterilized by treatment with 56 PUs when cell numbers are <100/ml. However, most brewers would regard this low level as unsafe in practice and would choose treatment at 1530 PU (Willox, 1966)


----------



## Stuster

Darren said:


> Stoodoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> FFS people, this thread is titled: Users Of The "no Chiller Method. If you haven't used this method, then please, PLEASE don't bother posting your useless information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuster,
Click to expand...


Not me, Darren, but it's nice that you thought of me. :wub: 

As you have stated, you are a scientist. We are hoping that you as a person with this background can provide independent verification by attempting to reproduce these results. As you know, this is the basis of the scientific method and is the accepted practice for the proof or disproof of new research.


----------



## Boots

I may be missing something extremely simple here ... but ... if a beer got infected in the no chill cube, wouldn't the resultant wild fermentation create CO2, making the cube expand? My pale ale is still sitting there after a couple months with the sides sucked in with a very tight vacuum. (unless botulism / nasty scary bugs don't create CO2 as a byproduct)

Off topic - Darren, no I didn't enter the poor richard into any other categories. It doesn't really match styles so would have been a waste of time.


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> Finally, you vocal proponents of the no-chill method should get together and write a manuscript to be submitted to a peer-reviewed beer journal. If you could carry out those experiments and get it accepted into a beer journal, that would give some credibility to the method.



So every step of your brewing practices adhere to methods set out in peer reviewed journals?


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick question for all those who spout commercial practices as the only way to brew and suggest that they rapidly chill their wort. Can you please tell me how long it takes Tooheys to chill a batch of their wort? Being able to produce 2 million stubbies per day, I'm guessing their kettles are HUGE. How long does it sit at near boiling temperatures before it's finally chilled? I'm pretty sure it's not 20-30mins. So if their beer is sitting at high temperatures for a prolonged time, why don't they suffer from terrible off flavours like DMS?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MAH,
> 
> Not sure how long it takes! The plate chiller at the West End brewery was taller than me and was about 50 cm thick. Chilled water was run through the chiller to get the wort to lager temps. The kettle right alongside looked comparatively similar in size to your average HB CFWC (HB chiller would be bigger in ratio).
> 
> At a guess I would say an hour at most! Certainly not days.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> EDIT: The kettle wasn't as big as i thought it would be. They had three of them I think. Now the lagering tanks were huge
Click to expand...



I had a look at some of West Ends own documentation. They have 150,000 litre kettles and their chiller workst at a rate of 100,000 per hour. So if you consider that they first transfer the wort to a whirlpool tank, then chill it's likely that it's around 2 plus hours before the wort is completely chilled. Now my point here is that brewing theory tells us that covering hot wort for this long is a no-no and will produce flavours like DMS. Surprisingly on a commercial scale they too theoretically take too long, but no DMS.

Your argument so far has shrunk to bedating the issue of long term storage using this method. But as many have shown, your theories are not borne out by our practice.

Give it a rest and start your own thread if you want to debate the validity of the method. 

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Uncle Fester

Darren said:


> I have a suggestion for you no chillers/storers.
> 
> Get yourself a small clear sterile tube.
> 
> After a week of storage in the cube take a sample into the tube. Leave the tube on top of your cube a have a look at what happens. If it doesn't start bubbling you have no worries. If it does you have wasted a batch.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




Darren,

Yes, you may be a microbiologist, and no, I am not. But the beauty of this forum, is that I do not have to be. Within this very thread, there are almost 400 posts, many of them being from people wo have used the no-chill method, and have had nothing but either praise for the method, or could not notice a significant difference to a chilled brew.

In fact, and please correct me if I am wrong, but there was only 1, maybe 2 references to the cube expanding under pressure (Was it Weizguy?). Even then, Am I correct in saying that he went ahead and brewed it anyway? And wasn't the result as expected?

I'm sorry if you dont get it, and can't get your head past the theoretical possibilities of what may happen to your brew in a worst case scenario. Let the stats do the talking. 

Maybe Gerard could give us some stats from St Peters Brewery as to how many of their thousands of no chilled cubes have turned into hydrostatic bombs whilst awaiting sale on the HBS floor?

Its all about statistics and probability. If the hygene is good, and sanitisation is good, then the probability of the brew being infected is low. Sure there is a possibility that something may get in there, but then there is also the possibility that some microbes survive the boil as well. And I assume that you are also against the practice of dry hopping? Or adding finnings?

And as for propping yourself on the soapbox as a microbiologist of 20 years standing, remember, Eddie the Eagle was a ski jumper of 20 years standing. Didn't make him any good though. (even if the was the best in England)

Try it, report on it. Don't gob on from the sidelines.

Festa

(Going to try my 101st attempt a growing microbes. Fortunately, all 100 so far have yielded good ones. I'm sure there is a bad on out there....)


----------



## DJR

Darren said:


> Finally, you vocal proponents of the no-chill method should get together and write a manuscript to be submitted to a peer-reviewed beer journal. If you could carry out those experiments and get it accepted into a beer journal, that would give some credibility to the method.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren

You sound like you are changing tack. That is, i reckon even if you actually did try the no-chill method or used a fresh wort cube, you would still not believe that a good result was actually indicative of a good practise. It sounds like the only way we can make you happy to leave this thread alone is to go to considerable expense setting up a laboratory controlled experiment into the different aspects of No-chill vs chilled beer, even though the overwhelming evidence in this thread, although anecdotal, seems to suggest that it is working fine, both on a home scale, and on a commercial scale with the Fresh Wort Kits. Now obviously this method won't work with commercial large scale breweries needing to chill hundreds or thousands of hectolitres, hence why a peer-reviewed brewing science study into nochill would be largely worthless, as it would not cover the main method of production of beer in the world, large scale brewery production.

As i've said before, we're homebrewers and whatever gets good results in an achievable, repeatable manner works fine for us. 1 or 2 infections out of many hundreds of batches does not completely invalidate a method. How many infections would have been caused by ferment flies landing in cooled wort as an immersion chiller was being used?

Remember the main point of science was to disprove and/or prove hypotheses via experimentation. Do some experiments, get some hard evidence and we'll listen.

And remember, don't let the facts stand in the way of a good argument! :lol:


----------



## SJW

I have been following this thread from the start and took on board all of the early pro's and cons and finally gave it a go. About 5 or 6 times now, only as it was convenient at the time to do so. Like most, (who have actually tried it), I found no noticeable adverse affects or flavours and ended up with some top drops, and thats what its all about "making beer" we are not splitting atoms.
IMO this thread is starting to go a bit pear shaped and I think I will be signing off now and wont be following the thread anymore. So in the interest of getting a result that would let the numbers speak for themselves is there anyway of doing a Poll or some type of summary of what everyones results have been. As I would love to know if anyone has had a cube explode or ended up in hospital with some type of disease as a result of using the "No Chillier Method".
This thread is turning out like the place to go to make a few crazy statements and see who bites.
But I guess if people are still getting useful info out of the thread and it is making a meaningful, productive contribution to Craft brewing, I say keep up the good work.
But I have has enough!


Steve


----------



## Batz

Me too!

If these boys can't talk nice then I'll be taking out the strap !

Batz


----------



## Gulf Brewery

I think this thread has gone off track far enough.

Before someone closes this, I would never use the no chill method. 
If I brew a beer, I can't wait until it ferments and is kegged so that I can try it. . 

How could you leave a beer 6 weeks without wondering what it is going to be like  

Cheers
Pedro

PS - on the subject of possible infections, our beers are never going to be perfect, we just accept a level of infection that we can live with. Enuf Sed


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

My brain hurts


----------



## Gerard_M

Uncle Fester said:


> Maybe Gerard could give us some stats from St Peters Brewery as to how many of their thousands of no chilled cubes have turned into hydrostatic bombs whilst awaiting sale on the HBS floor?
> 
> 
> 
> Festa
> 
> (Going to try my 101st attempt a growing microbes. Fortunately, all 100 so far have yielded good ones. I'm sure there is a bad on out there....)




In the 3+1/2 years that I have been selling them, I have never had an ESB Fresh Wort Kit from the St.Peter's Brewery puff up into a "hydrostatic bomb". But then we don't have them sitting around for very long as they sell so quickly. 
Thanks for asking

Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Weizguy

SJW said:


> <abbrev>
> So in the interest of getting a result that would let the numbers speak for themselves is there anyway of doing a Poll or some type of summary of what everyone’s results have been.
> </abbrev>


I propose the following poll:  

How do U rate no-chill Brewing? :
Never intend to use it. Unbeliever...If I don't get botulism, I'll die from humiliation, and be unable to snipe evermore.
Too dead to vote. Death by beer cube, or "in hospital with some type of disease as a result of using the "No Chillier Method" ", to quote SJW.
Nah, I dunnit once and had a bad result.
NO thanks, I tried it a few times, with poor results and it doesn't work for me.
OK, I've used it and I'll do no-chill again, but only when I'm short on time. It's a good back-up plan - like having some dry yeast on hand.
Great, I'll do mostly No-chill, and only chill wort when I have to. Converted!
Jesus spoke to me from the Belgian lace down the inside of someone's beer glass. I am one of the chosen. I will advocate the No-chill method publicly and practice it fervently, to the exclusion of all other methods. Testify!
or not!

Seth pollmaker 

edit: Removed extraneous text from the quote at the top


----------



## Weizguy

OK, so we're not having a poll?

I thought it was a good idea, to sort out the numbers of advocates, experienced users and naysayers.

Seth


----------



## devo

I'm still undecided about the no chill method because I've only done it once and yet tasted the result due to it still fermenting.

I know it's a common and established practice these days to have a the "cold break" as part of the process but how was it done before brewers had the ability to do this?


----------



## bugwan

Hutch said:


> I'm a no-chiller. My CFC is now gathering dust, with the once-loved immersion coil...



Does that mean they're for sale Hutch


----------



## Ross

Weizguy said:


> OK, so we're not having a poll?
> 
> I thought it was a good idea, to sort out the numbers of advocates, experienced users and naysayers.
> 
> Seth



Your idea Seth - Why don't you start one?  

Cheers Ross


----------



## Hutch

bugwan said:


> Does that mean they're for sale Hutch



Sorry, no such luck Bugwan.  
I have plenty of superfluous HB equipment that I just can't part with (particularly with the way copper prices are going!)


----------



## PistolPatch

Seth,

I think it would be extremely helpful and informative if you started a poll. When all this no-chill stuff started I was having to concentrate on other things in my brewing. Now, these threads have become way too big or hijacked too much to reasonably expect new guys to read them from start to finish. (Getting a heap of laughs just reading the last few pages of this one though )

I think the poll idea would be a great help for newer guys such as myself and may stay a little more under control especially if you ask that only people who have tried the method contribute to the thread.

Cheers mate,
Pat


----------



## Weizguy

Well, Pat...seeing as you and Ross asked so nicely, I'll do it soon.

Were you happy with the standard of questions I prepared, or should I revise?

Beerz
Seth


----------



## hupnupnee

All good Weizguy - go the poll.

As for the Darren slappers, leave him alone  Darren has added a really interesting and useful dimension to this discussion. Each time he has chirped in it has illisited some really interesting discusion, and better yet he has inspired people to back up their assertions with more than just the anacdotal evidence that is the mainstay of this discussion. 

I agree Darren, there is no amount of anacdotal evidence that will substitute for the sort or rigor required for science. However personal experience of any event regardless of how unlikely or improbable will always be regarded more "valid" than any esoteric scientifically valid experiement. But then again, if a whole lot of personal expereince is validating the same finding - maybe they're on to something.


Could the no chillers get a few sterile containers - aseptically transfer some wort into them and send it off to you for a full cell count and ID and then maybe a bit of a culture up to check for viablility?


Perhaps Darren can answer me this?

The sugar concentration of a wort is quiet high thus reducing available water for spores to regenerate. 
Many food spoilage organsisms have a fairly low tolerance for high sugar concentrations.
Many food spoilage organisms don't fair to well at temperatures above about 75* for too long.
Those that form spores can tolerate higher temps for longer.
Many food spoilage organisms favour aerobic conditions for multiplication.
Santisation reduce the number of viable cells.


Is the above true, if so, do you think that the no-chill methods produces a rather hostile environment for food spoilage organisms and there for would be unlikely (but not imposible) to develop detrimental infection?

A few thoughts and questions

Tim


----------



## moegreen

hupnupnee said:


> The sugar concentration of a wort is quiet high thus reducing available water for spores to regenerate.



How do you figure this? Do you have a reference? If crystallization of honey is a bacteria concern, I would suspect wort is far from a sugar preservative.

Bacteria can double typically every 10-30 minutes in ideal environments. Obviously exponential growth can be substantia, much baster than brewer's yeast. 

Sterilization of course is 100% kill rate, which is a bit of a bold assertion outside of an autoclave. 99.9% is not sterilization, it's sanitation.

Now, take this into consideration: All homebrew has contamination. Give it enough time, beer will show evidence of said contamination. Despite this, beer tastes just fine up to that point, and actually tastes fine to most beyond that point. Just because you can't taste it doesn't mean the contamination isn't there. It just hasn't progressed to the flavor threshold. This is true of all perishable products.

So, speaking practically, worrying about no-chill contamination is a bit of a moot point. For some, no-chill may be better than chilling because their cleaning and sanitation is laxed, while maybe for the anal, it may be worse. In the end, provided some basic levels of sanitation, it's probably a matter of shelf life. Reading these threads though, I find it a bit dubious the sense if invincibility to contamination no-chill proponents seem to have.


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> The only class I judged was dark ale. Would be interested to hear how many no chills were in there and how they went!
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> Darren



Just got my judging notes back, I had two in the dark ales, an english brown and a robust porter. Only complaint for the porter was lack of roasty qualities, the english brown was too hoppy / not malty enough and one judge found it a little rubbery / phenolic. Of the four beers I had in there were no DMS complaints on any of the judging notes.


----------



## MAH

moegreen said:


> All homebrew has contamination. Give it enough time, beer will show evidence of said contamination. Despite this, beer tastes just fine up to that point, and actually tastes fine to most beyond that point. Just because you can't taste it doesn't mean the contamination isn't there. It just hasn't progressed to the flavor threshold. This is true of all perishable products..................
> 
> In the end, provided some basic levels of sanitation, it's probably a matter of shelf life.



Good point. Well made.



moegreen said:


> I find it a bit dubious the sense if invincibility to contamination no-chill proponents seem to have.



I don't think people are saying they are invincible to contamination and in fact there has been a lot of aknowledgement of the risks, however people are saying that the no-chill method seems to pose no increased risk over other traditional methods.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Hopsta

To all "no chillers" today is the day i attempt my 1st no chill brew (only because my fermenter fridge is full), a brown porter its not hop driven and its a dark beer which is hard to stuff up anyway.
I have quickly skimmed through ~50 odd pages on this method.

I have all the ingredients ready to go for a 20litre batch, at the end of boil i will whirlpool let sit for ~10 mins then gravity feed into my 25litre cube and sqeeze the cube till i have purged all the headspace, or can i just give it a burst of C02 ? whats better? I dont want my cube to be out of shape permanently. 

Cheers,
Hopsta


----------



## crozdog

Hopsta said:


> To all "no chillers" today is the day i attempt my 1st no chill brew (only because my fermenter fridge is full), a brown porter its not hop driven and its a dark beer which is hard to stuff up anyway.
> I have quickly skimmed through ~50 odd pages on this method.
> 
> I have all the ingredients ready to go for a 20litre batch, at the end of boil i will whirlpool let sit for ~10 mins then gravity feed into my 25litre cube and sqeeze the cube till i have purged all the headspace, or can i just give it a burst of C02 ? whats better? I dont want my cube to be out of shape permanently.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hopsta


For my 1st no chill, I co2'd the cube before & after racking. i squeezed as much air out as possible as well.
The 2nd no chill had co2 after racking + a good side squeeze to expell arir.
With subsequent ones I have omitted the co2 altogether & just expelled as much asir as I could.

The sides of the cubes do pop back to normal when you wash the cube with hot water after emptying it into the fermenter. A slight squeeze is sometimes needed to get it to pop.

Good luck with the brew.
beers
Crozdog


----------



## Hopsta

Thanks crozdog!


----------



## Weizguy

Hopsta said:


> Thanks crozdog!


Hopsta,

I suggest that you squeeze out as much air as you can and then apply the lid, and then turn the whole thing upside down to heat-sanitise the headspace at the top of the cube.
That's a point I missed, and the result was a contaminated brew.

Beerz
Seth


----------



## Hopsta

Weizguy said:


> Hopsta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks crozdog!
> 
> 
> 
> Hopsta,
> 
> I suggest that you squeeze out as much air as you can and then apply the lid, and then turn the whole thing upside down to heat-sanitise the headspace at the top of the cube.
> That's a point I missed, and the result was a contaminated brew.
> 
> Beerz
> Seth
Click to expand...


Wish i had of read this a little earlier but it doesnt matter i had the cube soaking in bleach and shook an iodine mix through it before filling, should be right im sure the steam would cook any nasties, fingers crossed. It was impossible to get all the air out my main concern with this method is the possibility of getting badly burnt, squeezing a limp plastic cube to purge the air could result in it bursting, cracking or collapsing and spilling on you. Care needs to be taken. Anyway im looking forward to tasting the results.

Cheers,
Hopsta

P.s heres a pic of the finished product.


----------



## Darren

hupnupnee said:


> Could the no chillers get a few sterile containers - aseptically transfer some wort into them and send it off to you for a full cell count and ID and then maybe a bit of a culture up to check for viablility?
> 
> 
> Perhaps Darren can answer me this?
> 
> The sugar concentration of a wort is quiet high thus reducing available water for spores to regenerate.
> Many food spoilage organsisms have a fairly low tolerance for high sugar concentrations.
> Many food spoilage organisms don't fair to well at temperatures above about 75* for too long.
> Those that form spores can tolerate higher temps for longer.
> Many food spoilage organisms favour aerobic conditions for multiplication.
> Santisation reduce the number of viable cells.
> 
> 
> Is the above true, if so, do you think that the no-chill methods produces a rather hostile environment for food spoilage organisms and there for would be unlikely (but not imposible) to develop detrimental infection?
> 
> A few thoughts and questions
> 
> Tim



Tim,

I can see the boss comong and saying " What are you doing"? Oh just growing up some homebrew cultures. In my old job I could have gotten away with it but not the new one, plus I am too busy.

I agree hot wort is not the ideal growth medium for bugs. As I have alsways said, its the 80/20 rule. That is, 20% of the process causes 80% of the problem. Sanitation is a big part of that 20%.

Having said that if it works for you, great if it doesn't you have wasted a couple of days.

cheers

Darren


----------



## AndrewQLD

niceshoes said:


> This is a bit OT, I'm not a scientist but I am an IT Professional and do you know how many viruses are out there right now as you all tap on your keyboards about 'to chill' or 'not to chill'.
> 
> There are risks in all facets of life and I suggest stick with what works for you.
> 
> BTW I deserve a bloody medal for reading all 28 pages.
> 
> 
> Ian...



Welcome aboard Ian, and if the last 28 pages didn't put you off then I guess you're here to stay :lol: . And you're right you do deserve a medal to.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Kai

niceshoes said:


> This is a bit OT, I'm not a scientist but I am an IT Professional and do you know how many viruses are out there right now as you all tap on your keyboards about 'to chill' or 'not to chill'.



For me, none. Absolutely none.


----------



## Malnourished

Sorry if this has been asked before (you'll forgive me for not wanting to read every post on the subject!!) but how do people go about getting hot wort from the boiler into their chilling vessel of choice if their boiler doesn't have a tap? 

I'm interested in having a crack at this, but I'm not keen on trying to siphon boiling wort.


----------



## Kai

I wouldn't be keen on that either. I think this method would be too complicated without a tap on the kettle unless you can just let the wort cool in the kettle overnight.


----------



## Adamt

Using an auto-syphon and silicone piping, you just put the auto-syphon in, jiggle it and YARRRRGH, THARR SHE FLOWS! :blink: 

I've heard you can get them from car parts stores or something.

Edit: I just put the lid on my pot and leave it overnight.


----------



## Kai

Thar she might melt too, according to some posts I've read on beeradvocate. That and you have to open the top of the kettle, which both cools the wort quicker and allows contamination to enter. Not big increases in risk but increases nonetheless.


----------



## Kai

Well, I said I wasn't keen on the idea oh syphoning so I assume you were talking to adam. With transferring from kettle tap to jerry via tubing I have not noticed any oxidation so far but then again I struggle to leave beers longer than a couple months. I don't think it's any different than the transfer from mash tun to kettle though.


----------



## PistolPatch

Kai said:


> She (the auto-syphon) might melt too, according to some posts I've read on beeradvocate.



Too right Kai. The auto-syphons will bend with hot liquids. On my first AG I had to transfer some boiling water for some reason. This resulted in a banana-shaped auto-syphon. I now use it in the morning to hit myself over the head if I've done atrocious posting the night before


----------



## mje1980

Ross said:


> Why is this thread degenerating from the knockers again... It clearly states that this thread is for *USERS* of the "no chill method". Can we get back on track please. I for one am fed up of the endless carping from those not interested in giving it a go...
> 
> cheers Ross




Quick question guys. I did my 1st no chill the other week, and when i checked it yesterday, it was 1.002, yep, 1002. I think its because i used 2/3's of a yeast cake, plus the fact that when you dump the wort on the yeast, it aerates like mad. I think that's why it came down so much. And, no, to the knockers, its not contaminated, just a litte more light bodied than i'd like haha!!. Any ideas guys??. Maybe i should have removed more yeast before dumping the wort on??. BTW, i used white labs premium bitter ale yeast, an absolute gem of a yeast i believe.


----------



## Ross

mje1980 said:


> Quick question guys. I did my 1st no chill the other week, and when i checked it yesterday, it was 1.002, yep, 1002.



Very interesting mje1980 - I occaisionally use a "semi no chill method" when there's a wind blowing on brew day, i transfer the wort at 65c+ into the fermenter (hot enough to knock any wild yeast over) & let chill overnight in the fridge before pitching the yeast. The last 2 brews I did this to fermented down further than i expected. My 1082 Imperial APA dropped to 1010 a massive 87% attenuation. There's certainly no off flavours in either brew, maybe the break material is liked by the yeast... anyone else getting above average attenuation with their no chill brews?

cheers Ross


----------



## apd

I thought it was recommended that you only use about a cup of yeast cake from a previous batch - not the whole cake.

Check the repitching section on this page: http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Apparently, reusing a whole yeast cake means you don't get some of the flavours that are produced during yeast reproduction.


----------



## DJR

When we did the brewday on the weekend, we siphoned from the 100L kettle without a tap using a metre of silicone hose - yes it was hot but we wore gloves, immersed the tubing, put a finger over the top, and then ran the tubing into the bottom of the cube while holding the other end of the tubing close to the top of the hot wort. Worked fine and we just lined up the cubes so we could quickly pull the tube out and fill the next one.
You can see it here: (tilt your head 90 degrees!)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=si&img=525


----------



## Duff

Ross said:


> ... anyone else getting above average attenuation with their no chill brews?
> 
> cheers Ross



Yes, and much stronger ferments. I had my Munich APA filled to 20L in my 30L fermenter only to come home and find the WLP001 out the top and down the sides much like your recent piccy of your stout Ross. Gerard_M commented that he'd never seen 001 do that before, and the same is currently happening with my RyeIPA. Looks like a massive head of cauliflower on top of the fermenter. Cleaned it up last night, but it's at it again this morning, lost about 3L so far. Took a piccy of it last night, I'll post it later when I get home.

Cheers.


----------



## Ken Man Do

Did my third NC Sunday. These guys that say a chiller apparatus takes 15 minutes to use crack me up. By the time you sanitize, drag out hoses, blah blah blah, clean up, put stuff away... Ain't no way you're gonna pull that off in 15 minutes!

But I have to say that I like walking away from a brew day at flameout. I just put the sealed lid on the BK, point a fan at it, and call it quits.


----------



## AndrewQLD

> Canetoad
> Can someone tell me what is easier about putting wort in a cube and in a fridge and then tranferring to a fermenter as compared with running it thru a chiller straight into a fermenter (takes 15 minutes)? Assuming that you're somewhere that has no water, I can almost see the sense, but that isn't 99.99percent of us.
> I sense an almost religious intolerance towards people who want to make great beer and who insist that "doing the little things right" is important. I wish I had never read this thread.




The thread heading clearly states that this thread is for "users of the no chill method" and was created so that people who actually USE this method can factually report their results and findings, like Ross I am getting fed up with people who can't follow basic forum guidelines.

If you can't post to this thread with actual first hand information on the use of the no chiller method then don't bother posting, we already know all of the alleged pitfalls of this method and most of us are trying to contribute by presenting results from using the method.

Cheers
Andrew

Wow... sorry to crash your little clubhouse. I heard about this board and this was an interesting current topic. I didn't know everyone was insecure with their methods.

troll


----------



## Adamt

Good, back on topic!

I no-chilled my first AG, OG was around 1.035 (not sure totally). It went down to 1.005 (85% attenuation) after primary, still bubbling occasionally in secondary. Tastes awesome, apart from it being warm and flat!


----------



## MAH

moegreen said:


> What of HSA?





moegreen said:


> Specifically while racking or transferring nearly boiling wort, particularly w/ an autosiphon.



Currently on tap I have a German Pilsner. It was made using the NC method. For this particular batch, my pick-up tube had not sealed properly and I couldn't get a siphon from the tap. So I resorted to siphoning over the side of the kettle. Filled the hose with boiled water, placed one end in the kettle other in the cube and let rip. Not and idle approach and not one I would want to do again, because of the obvious dangers.

Now in regards to oxidisation there is none. This beer is tasting nice and clean., There are no funky flavours caused by the NC, and no oxidised flavours due to the siphoning over the side of the kettle. Anyone who doubts that the beer is clean tasting is welcome to come over and taste for themselves.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Kai

moegreen said:


> Hotter the wort, greater the oxidation, so yes there is a difference.
> 
> All things considered, draining w/ a valve and tube to the bottom of the fermenter shouldn't pose a significant risk. I would argue though it is a greater risk than proper whirlpool chilling or sending directly to an inline chiller.




Well, I guess you answered your own question then. What of HSA? Not a significant risk.


----------



## jimmy01

Hi All

Can I ask why you tend to use cubes to store the wort pre-pitching? I would have thought that these would be harder to clean than a old fermenter or even a 20l food grade bucket.

Cheers


----------



## Bobby

i use a cube and have no problem cleaning. i soak in napisan for a few hours then soak in iodopher solution for a while then rinse and never have any problems.


----------



## Stuster

Jimmy

the advantage of the cubes is that you can squeeze them in to get out any remaining air. They can then be kept longer with no contamination/oxidation risk. If you are just pitching the next day, a fermenter should be fine. I do the same as Bobby to clean/sanitise the cubes and it's pretty easy.


----------



## Adamt

People use cubes so they can reduce the headspace, cubes can be squeezed in where a plastic bucket/fermenter can't be.

Less headspace = less chance of aeration if the cube gets knocked, or when its being moved. 

There's a brilliant picture of one of Pumpy's no-chill fresh wort cubes with the sides squeezed in. I wouldn't really wanna be doing that without some insulated gloves/knees though, burnt skin is hard to get off plastic.

EDIT: Link to Pumpy's squeezed cube.


Moe: There's a topic called "The "No-Chill method": Potential problems?" that was started before this thread. This thread was started because skeptics/naysayers/pessimists/non-tryers just flamed when people said they no-chilled without problems, and this thread is supposed to be a logical discussion about the affects no-chilling have had on their brews, good and bad. Feel free to post and discuss potential problems there, most issues raised by you I think you will find have already been discussed in that thread.


----------



## Ross

moegreen said:


> Wow... sorry to crash your little clubhouse. I heard about this board and this was an interesting current topic. I didn't know everyone was insecure with their methods.



moegreen,

Your discussion is most welcome, just take the trouble to do a search & add your comments to the relevant thread. Going off at tangents when the thread was set up solely for people to report their findings, helps no-one....

Welcome to the forum - How about filling out some info on your whereabouts & introducing yourself...

cheers Ross


----------



## MAH

jimmy01 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Can I ask why you tend to use cubes to store the wort pre-pitching? I would have thought that these would be harder to clean than a old fermenter or even a 20l food grade bucket.
> 
> Cheers




Hi Jimmy

My practices are a little different to most. Firstly I don't store my wort for more than a couple of days. As such I rack from the kettle straight into a fermenter. When it has reached pitching temps, I innoculate with the yeast. I get the yeast all fired up with a litre or two of the wort which I cool in a sanitised flagon. Racking this small portion into a flagon means I can cool it quicker and get the yeast all fired up sooner. I like to do it this way for three reasons, I get too pitch a good active starter using the exact same wort as the beer I'm making, secondly it saves water and thirdly I don't have to stuff around with sanitising and afterwards cleaning a chiller, just my fermentation vessle.

These are just my preferences and reasons and are certainly not definitive of other NCer views.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## jimmy01

Thanks for the feedack on cubes Guys.

I have done one No-chill brew so far. I have been thinking of trying it and following this thread closely. However, was forced into a decision on the week-end as my yeast starter failed to fire and had to wait for a new one. I'm interested to see how it turns out. 

My main interest in no-chill is due to the water restrictions we have in Brissie at present. 

I'll probably do as you have MAH - rack into the fermenter and pitch the next day or 2.

Cheers

Jimmy


----------



## devo

These cubes that warren put me onto fit and stack a treat  

View attachment 9310


----------



## warrenlw63

That would explain why they have none left. They told me that some crazy bloke in a beanie bought 'em. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## devo

None left??? bugger I was planning on getting some more?


----------



## warrenlw63

Could it be that there's more no-chillers in the Nthn. subs than just us? h34r: :lol: 

I bought a 5 litre cube from them the other day. Going to reserve some wort (in the freezer) for a no-chill Hefeweizen for priming.  

Warren -


----------



## mikem108

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....highlight=chill


You've made quite an impression on the yanks! Have a read its funny
"whats a cube" "whats a Jerry can"


----------



## jimmysuperlative

...while were talking of "cubes", I saw a Supercheap sale catalogue today with 20L jerrycans for $12.99!!!

Headsuppppppppppp.......!


----------



## pint of lager

To the readers and posters to this thread.

Please stay on topic. This thread is for the people who use the no chill method.

Some off topic material has been deleted. I would have liked to notify personally all members who had posts deleted, but that would have taken a few hours to do. 

If you wish to discuss the merits or otherwise, please use the original no chill thread, where there has already been much debate about DMS, HSA, sanitation, botulism and more. Do make sure that you read the existing material, as posts going over old ground may be deleted.


----------



## Ken Man Do

I sampled an extremely low-bittered 4 SRM NC'ed lager in early secondary yesterday. I'm afraid I've made Budweiser or something! Anyway, this delicate beer so far showed no funk. I know the feeling is that a light lager would be more likely to reveal flaws in the NC method. I'll report further, but so far so good.


----------



## jimmyjack

Just put down an APA using the no chill method. I put it straight into the fermenter and then into the fermenting fridge. should I leave the airlock ajar to let some of the heat escape? Will this stop my fermenter from turning into a pear?

Cheers, JJ


----------



## Ken Man Do

jimmyjack said:


> Just put down an APA using the no chill method. I put it straight into the fermenter and then into the fermenting fridge. should I leave the airlock ajar to let some of the heat escape? Will this stop my fermenter from turning into a pear?
> 
> Cheers, JJ


Put sanitizer soaked cotton into the airlock to let filtered air into the fermenter and relieve the vacuum.


----------



## goatherder

jimmyjack said:


> Just put down an APA using the no chill method. I put it straight into the fermenter and then into the fermenting fridge. should I leave the airlock ajar to let some of the heat escape? Will this stop my fermenter from turning into a pear?
> 
> Cheers, JJ



jj, just be careful if you are using your fridge to cool the wort. there was some discussion early on in the original no-chill thread that chilling hot wort in a fridge was likely to shorten the lifespan of your fridge.


----------



## Adamt

It will cool just as fast outside, between 85-100C and 30C, as it will in the fridge, especially if theres a nice breeze. Once it gets down to 30ish it would cool quicker, but I just left mine overnight and it was at pitching temp.


----------



## jimmyjack

Thanx guys, great advice as always! Took it out of fridge and put outside.

Cheers, JJ :beerbang:


----------



## Ross

goatherder said:


> jj, just be careful if you are using your fridge to cool the wort. there was some discussion early on in the original no-chill thread that chilling hot wort in a fridge was likely to shorten the lifespan of your fridge.



Not arguing the point, as I'm not a fridgey - but how is this the case please?

Adamt - Likewise how do you work out that a fridge doesn't cool it quicker? I can assure you it does, especially in the Qld heat, also I'd rather my fermenter was in the dark  

cheers Ross


----------



## Uncle Fester

Ross said:


> goatherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> jj, just be careful if you are using your fridge to cool the wort. there was some discussion early on in the original no-chill thread that chilling hot wort in a fridge was likely to shorten the lifespan of your fridge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not arguing the point, as I'm not a fridgey - but how is this the case please?
> 
> Adamt - Likewise how do you work out that a fridge doesn't cool it quicker? I can assure you it does, especially in the Qld heat, also I'd rather my fermenter was in the dark
> 
> cheers Ross
Click to expand...



At a guess, 20 odd litres of wort @ 85+ degrees will run the tits off your fridge in trying to get it to 4 or whatever it is set to. I guess compressors arent intended to run with that kind of duty cycle.

For what its worth, my 300 litre chest freezer has a warning label inside it, warning you not to place more than 10 Kg of meat in at any one time.

If in excess of 10 Kilos of beef risks a 300 litre chest freezer, then 20 litres of boiling wort would probably do the same to a fridge.


Having said that, it doesnt stop me buying a side of beef and chucking that in the freezer anyway. Hasn't killed it yet..


Festa.


----------



## Kai

Uncle Fester said:


> At a guess, 20 odd litres of wort @ 85+ degrees will run the tits off your fridge in trying to get it to 4 or whatever it is set to.



I believe that is the technical term.

With regards to your freezer though, that also might be an issue with how long it takes to freeze that quantity of meat.


----------



## Ross

Uncle Fester said:


> At a guess, 20 odd litres of wort @ 85+ degrees will run the tits off your fridge in trying to get it to 4 or whatever it is set to. I guess compressors arent intended to run with that kind of duty cycle.



Yes, but the ambient air will still drop despite the hot fermenter, so the fridge will still cycle on & off, if only a bit more frequently. I guess in theory that's shortening the compressor life, but I'd be amazed if it's doing any real damage...

cheers Ross


----------



## Zizzle

I'm with Ross. I've seen a few fridges that have dodgy seals around the door, which means they are on pretty well constantly on, and yet last for years.


----------



## devo

I finally got to tap and taste my first "no chill" Pilsner last night and I'd have to report that it's turned out great.  


I also just pitched a starter into an APA today that I brewed and cubed 2 weeks ago. Will come back with my verdict when this is ready.


----------



## Adamt

My first no-chill was a disaster. I'm gonna have to throw the lot out. Jan, I'm not a happy chappy.

Tasted fine all the way through until the tube fell off whilst transferring to my cube to CC, heard this big "Bllllloooooooooooooooop" from the cube and went "Ohhh fark". Now it tastes like off yeast/cardboard and she's oxidised alright. I'm about to chuck it 

Ahh well, guess I will be brewing again soon! I'm gonna 2-man all my rackings from now on hehe.


----------



## devo

Adamt said:


> My first no-chill was a disaster. I'm gonna have to throw the lot out. Jan, I'm not a happy chappy.
> 
> Tasted fine all the way through until the tube fell off whilst transferring to my cube to CC, heard this big "Bllllloooooooooooooooop" from the cube and went "Ohhh fark". Now it tastes like off yeast/cardboard and she's oxidised alright. I'm about to chuck it
> 
> Ahh well, guess I will be brewing again soon! I'm gonna 2-man all my rackings from now on hehe.



jeez not good mate, sorry to hear. :unsure:


----------



## Lindsay Dive

I've taken the time to read a fair bit about this post and am keen to give it a go, however, I can't find anywhere here where you guys buy your 25 litre cubes.
Can anyone help?


----------



## goatherder

Lindsay Dive said:


> I've taken the time to read a fair bit about this post and am keen to give it a go, however, I can't find anywhere here where you guys buy your 25 litre cubes.
> Can anyone help?



Supercheap Auto, Bunnings, Big W. They are normally sold as water carrying cubes.


----------



## Lindsay Dive

Goatherder,

Thanks for that. Actually I'm off to Bunnings withing the hour to get some plants for the better half.

Regards,
Lindsay.


----------



## hupnupnee

goatherder said:


> Lindsay Dive said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've taken the time to read a fair bit about this post and am keen to give it a go, however, I can't find anywhere here where you guys buy your 25 litre cubes.
> Can anyone help?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supercheap Auto, Bunnings, Big W. They are normally sold as water carrying cubes.
Click to expand...



There bloody expensive considering what they are, does anyone have a cheaper supply.

Ta

Tim


----------



## Lindsay Dive

Bunnings only had the 15 litre cubes and 20 litre gerry cans. Made by BMW Plastics in Victoria.

I need two twenty five litre containers before I can try the no chill method!

Regards,
Lindsay.


----------



## Lindsay Dive

Just googled BMW Plastics......have a look.

http://www.bmwplastics.com.au/liquidstorage.html

I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if anybody has the 25 litre cubes in Sydney.

Regards,
Lindsay.


----------



## DJR

Lindsay Dive said:


> Just googled BMW Plastics......have a look.
> 
> http://www.bmwplastics.com.au/liquidstorage.html
> 
> I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if anybody has the 25 litre cubes in Sydney.
> 
> Regards,
> Lindsay.



Try these guys: http://www.cospak.com.au/products.asp?GroupID=28 There is a $100 minimum order but they should be quite cheap, at least they are for glass bottles. 25QA is probably the most appropriate container, or 20J for a 20L one.

Ray's outdoors at Camperdown sells 22L natural colour jerrys for $16.99 when i was there the other day, that's their normal price. Look like the 20J's from the link above.


----------



## Lindsay Dive

I wonder if these cubes are food grade.


----------



## Adamt

Yes, the jerrys that are designed to carry water are. There are also fuel jerry cans, not sure whether they are a different plastic that is less/non reactive to fuels, or just because they're cheaper, non-food grade, opaque plastic.


----------



## DJR

Lindsay Dive said:


> I wonder if these cubes are food grade.



Should be - the ones i got that are BMW plastics ones look like HDPE which is fine, i sent them an email asking about whether they were HDPE or PVC and didn't get a response - both are fine however HDPE is superior as PVC contains chloride compounds and pthalates that may leech out slowly. HDPE is the recycling 2 logo. The fuel jerrys are probably ABS as that is petrol resistant.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

jimmysuperlative said:


> ...while were talking of "cubes", I saw a Supercheap sale catalogue today with 20L jerrycans for $12.99!!!
> 
> Headsuppppppppppp.......!




Got myself two of these today!! ON SPECIAL !!! $12.99each


----------



## poppa joe

I get 20 lts from the back of the pub....Jim Beam...Bundy.....Etc...
FRREEEEEEE
Local soap shop sells the detergent ones..about 3 bucks..
I have about 10 detergent type ones...any one around Nowra need them...
I asked the original supplier if they were OK. they said ..yes..
PJ


----------



## hoganknowbest

Can someone please simplify the no chill method for me!
I'm currently looking for 'HB for dummies' as i have no idea and can't be bothered reading 400 and something post on this subject.

Thanks to the person who takes the time to educate me on this subject!


----------



## Bizarre

Well, after following this topic for a few weeks now, I decided I'd give it a go. DId an AG Pils and I have left it in the kettle (with the lid on!  ) since yesterday at about 7pm. Its now 6.30 - I gotta clean the fermenter out and then I am ready to go .. will let u all know how it turns out. Oh yeah - being paranoid when I looked at my s/s pot lid it looked like there were gaps in places - so I pit al foil around the edges of the lid and screwed it up real tight to create another barrier for nasties - hehe - hopefully nothing bad got in there! I guess Ill find out in a couple of weeks or so.

Cheers
:chug:


----------



## Stuster

scottshari said:


> Can someone please simplify the no chill method for me!
> I'm currently looking for 'HB for dummies' as i have no idea and can't be bothered reading 400 and something post on this subject.
> 
> Thanks to the person who takes the time to educate me on this subject!



Have a look at How to Brew for a good intro to, wait for it, how to brew. Try out some extract brews if you haven't already. Then perhaps partial mashes and then to all grain. If you do an all grain (AG) beer, at the end, just skip the cooling stage and rack straight into a cube making sure you squeeze the cube to get any air out. Finished. Come back tomorrow/next week/... , rack into a fermenter, pitch yeast. Easy.


----------



## Weizguy

In reply to Ross's post re efficiency, Beersmith and my Refracto sez I managed 87% apparent attenuation in my Rauchbier with W2206 @ 10-12 C.

Cannot detect oxidation or DMS, which should be apparent in any lager (if present), even a smokey one. Sampled 20 ml from the vessel this evening. It has been lagering for about 11 days and tastes really clean at this stage.

Both no-chill lagers I have made were no-chilled in the fermentor for a day or so and then popped in the fridge to chill to pitching temp, and allowed to sit there until the yeast was ready. Very handy to draw off some wort and increase the pitching yeast quantity, using the actual brew that it be pitchd into.

that's all 4 now
Seth out


----------



## warrenlw63

Perfect timing for a follow up to Weiz's reply with one of my own.  

Racked my no-chill Pilsner to the kegs for lagering last Friday. Early tastings show no DMS or other problems (read diacetyl) at all. In fact it's damn tasty indeed. I was afforded the luxury of being able to pitch the yeast at 8 degrees :beerbang: 

Second no-chill is sitting in the fridge in it's respective cubes. Basically it's a 47 litre batch of Hefeweizen with 5 litres of speise reserved for kegging.

No hops clogging the tap this time. Being a low hopped candidate like a Hefe I set up my own form of mock hop sock using my cheesecloth dry-hopping bag. Worked a treat. :beer: 

Warren -


----------



## devo

warrenlw63 said:


> Perfect timing for a follow up to Weiz's reply with one of my own.
> 
> Racked my no-chill Pilsner to the kegs for lagering last Friday. Early tastings show no DMS or other problems (read diacetyl) at all. In fact it's damn tasty indeed. I was afforded the luxury of being able to pitch the yeast at 8 degrees :beerbang:
> 
> Second no-chill is sitting in the fridge in it's respective cubes. Basically it's a 47 litre batch of Hefeweizen with 5 litres of speise reserved for kegging.
> 
> No hops clogging the tap this time. Being a low hopped candidate like a Hefe I set up my own form of mock hop sock using my cheesecloth dry-hopping bag. Worked a treat. :beer:
> 
> Warren -



Hey Warren

I've been using a hop bag for my bittering/boil stage for a while now and found it to be very effective in keeping the hop trub in check. I recently did a no chill APA with an IBU of 55(lotsa pellets) so the hop bag technique again worked well.

I also just tapped my no chill Pilsner the other day and it's turned out great.


----------



## Lindsay Dive

DJR said:


> Lindsay Dive said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just googled BMW Plastics......have a look.
> 
> http://www.bmwplastics.com.au/liquidstorage.html
> 
> I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if anybody has the 25 litre cubes in Sydney.
> 
> Regards,
> Lindsay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try these guys: http://www.cospak.com.au/products.asp?GroupID=28 There is a $100 minimum order but they should be quite cheap, at least they are for glass bottles. 25QA is probably the most appropriate container, or 20J for a 20L one.
> 
> Ray's outdoors at Camperdown sells 22L natural colour jerrys for $16.99 when i was there the other day, that's their normal price. Look like the 20J's from the link above.
> 
> Rang the folks at Cospak...yep $100 minimum order, however, the 25 litre cubes are only $7.50 but I don't need 13 of them.
> Anybody intetested in some at $7.50.
> 
> Regards,
> Lindsay.
Click to expand...


All of this editing and quoting stuff is a bit much for me. But I guess you can work out what is going on.

Regards,
Lindsay.


----------



## Ken Man Do

I just tapped my latest NC beer. It is a 4 SRM, 12 IBU American Premium lager. One measly ounce of Northern Brewer for 60 minutes and that's it. This is supposed to be the type of beer that would show a flaw in the NC method? Ain't no canned corn here. For what it is, it's a good beer. Easy drinking lawn mower beer.

I'm taking some to the homebrew club meeting Tue. I'll get some more input.


----------



## devo

Fella's, thought I'd report back to say that my 2nd no chill attempt (Chinook, Cascade APA) was a complete success.  


I think I will be getting me some more cubes then...


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Ok, I havent done too much reading on the no-chill subject, as until now the kitchen sink and ice blocks were good enough to cool down my mini batches. 

But, with my first full batch well within sight Ive been considering this as an option. 

I was under the impression that people would rack to a cube and then stick it straight in the fridge, but it seems that some of you might not be refrigerating the cube at all. 

So is that right? Its safe to let it cool in the cube just sitting around at room temperature? :huh: 

PZ.


----------



## Stuster

Either way should be fine, FB. Fine to let it cool down by itself, saving you a few cents in fridge costs and the environment too.


----------



## devo

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Ok, I havent done too much reading on the no-chill subject, as until now the kitchen sink and ice blocks were good enough to cool down my mini batches.
> 
> But, with my first full batch well within sight Ive been considering this as an option.
> 
> I was under the impression that people would rack to a cube and then stick it straight in the fridge, but it seems that some of you might not be refrigerating the cube at all.
> 
> So is that right? Its safe to let it cool in the cube just sitting around at room temperature? :huh:
> 
> PZ.




You can do either but my last batch I just left cubed in the garage for about 2 weeks and then poured the cooled wort into my fermenters, pitched the yeast and let nature take it's course.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Thanks guys, sounds good :beer: 

No-chill it is for me then :super: 

PZ.


----------



## Kai

I don't stick it in the fridge unless it's still above pitching temp the next day. I find it cools a little faster out of the fridge (at least on cooler nights) and I don't like putting that much hot mass in the fridge.


----------



## JSB

Yeah Kai - dont go putting your "Hot Mass in the fridge" you know what happen last time...


----------



## Ash in Perth

were any big winners of SABSOSA or ANAWBS from the no-chill method?

all of mine were from rapid chilling, and with this i am sure to stick. Im actually building and designing a faster and colder chiller right now.


----------



## Kai

I don't know about big winners but all my anawbs places were chilled using this method. Then again I was hoping to win the paddle just to get that plate chiller  



JSB said:


> Yeah Kai - dont go putting your "Hot Mass in the fridge" you know what happen last time...




The poor fridge was never the same :unsure:


----------



## MAH

Kai said:


> I don't know about big winners but all my anawbs places were chilled using this method.



Don't be so modest Kai. 5 beers entered and the lowest you placed was 5th (1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th & 5th). Your Mash Paddle entry came it 3rd and scored 42.75, 1 point off the eventual winner of 43.75. I think your results showed a very consistent level.

Any brewer should be proud of such results. Top darts!

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Kai

Thanks MAH, I was happy with the result though Pedro has kindly pointed out to me in chat that I should have gone for a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.


----------



## Stuster

You just don't like to be second best, Kai. Third best on the other hand,.... :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63

Do we sense an obsessive compulsive disorder with Kai?  

Warren -


----------



## browndog

Back on topic
FB, you can rack straight to your fementer, let it chill overnight, chuck it in the fridge then next day to get it to pitching temp then away you go. I have done 12 or so brews like this with no probs what so ever. 

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

browndog said:


> Back on topic
> FB, you can rack straight to your fementer, let it chill overnight, chuck it in the fridge then next day to get it to pitching temp then away you go. I have done 12 or so brews like this with no probs what so ever.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



I've not got a fermenting fridge (got a foam lined box and frozen bottles of salt water, so that's good enough). 

So with all this talk of filling headspace, inverting to kill off the nasties with wort heat, adding Co2 etc...you aren't doing any of these, but it's still turning out fine? 

Sounds like you are pushing the envelope a bit there, but if no probs after 12 brews this way I may as well try and prove you wrong...that is do it your way and hope for the best :beer: 

PZ.


----------



## browndog

Mate,
I simply rack straight from the kettle, after whirlpooling and letting it settle for 10min and you get the most clear wort you could imagine running though the racking tube. I leave it over night then refridgerate to 18C and pitch. I have never worried about oxygenating and have never had a problem with yeast. It is the way to go.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

browndog said:


> Mate



Dude, the "prove you wrong" thing was a joke of sorts...don't take offence...please read again h34r: 

What I meant was that if you can do it that way so many times without problems, then I'm happy to try it out myself  

PZ.


----------



## Murray

Fingerlickin_B said:


> browndog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, the "prove you wrong" thing was a joke of sorts...don't take offence...please read again h34r:
> 
> What I meant was that if you can do it that way so many times without problems, then I'm happy to try it out myself
> 
> PZ.
Click to expand...


Shh, the no chill mafia will find you and kill you!!


----------



## browndog

Never the hint of offence taken by me FB. Good luck with your no chill endeavours  


cheers

Browndog


----------



## Screwtop

Ross said:


> mje1980 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question guys. I did my 1st no chill the other week, and when i checked it yesterday, it was 1.002, yep, 1002.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting mje1980 - I occaisionally use a "semi no chill method" when there's a wind blowing on brew day, i transfer the wort at 65c+ into the fermenter (hot enough to knock any wild yeast over) & let chill overnight in the fridge before pitching the yeast. The last 2 brews I did this to fermented down further than i expected. My 1082 Imperial APA dropped to 1010 a massive 87% attenuation. There's certainly no off flavours in either brew, maybe the break material is liked by the yeast... anyone else getting above average attenuation with their no chill brews?
> 
> cheers Ross
Click to expand...



My gear prevents me from testing no chill. Kettle too low on my burner, no way of raising a kettle full of hot wort to drain to fermenter/cube. However I recently transferred cooled wort via a hose from kettle to the bottom of a fermenter without using my conical sieve as I usually do to catch left over break and hop trub. Even though I whirlpool some still gets drawn in by the pickup. Being paranoid due to recent infections I was trying to get the wort into the fermenter without aeration so put the hose to the bottom of the fermenter and drained everything out of the kettle. As in Ross and mje1980's findings above this wort fermented down the lowest of any of my AG brews to 1.006 using a yeast I'd used many times before without achieving such attenuation. As per their comments, no off flavours, maybe the yeast do like the break material, would be interested in the PH difference of wort once fermenting for a few days in a sample of, chill vs no chill, including break and trub, versus trub and break removed.


----------



## hupnupnee

Hi no chillers, :beer: 

Just thought I might share my "no chill' experiences with you all. 

I am a recent convert back to chilling due to three bad experiences with 'no chill'. I did nc on three brews in a row, a porter, an apa and a stout. Recipies where very standard and simple ag recipies. 

Beer one (PORTER)
Straight after boil I whirlpooled, then racked into two sealable containers (small cubes) to cool. Next day the wort temp was down to about 18* (we live in the chilly southern highlands). I then poured the whole kettle contents into the fermenter, break and all, aerated pitched and away we went.

Beer two (APA)
Straight after the boil I whirlpooled then alfoiled the rim of the kettle to stop contamination then left it over night. Next day the wort temp was down to about 18*. I then poured the whole kettle contents into the fermenter, break and all, aerated pitched and away we went.

Beer three (Stout)
Straight after the boil I whirlpooled then alfoiled the rim of the kettle to stop contamination then left it over night. Next day the wort temp was down to about 18*, I racked to the fermenter. Aerated pitched and away we went.

Not really a lot of difference between the beers in terms of cooling technique. I usually cool in the kettle and then transfer to the fermenter the next morning and I've got good results in the past. 

 However!!! These three brews all suffered the same fate, that is they never cleared, each of them has a significantly large amount of something suspended in the beer making them so cloudy they are opaque. Not a big problem for the stout and porter but not good for the apa. There is a slightly funny taste that I can not ID. It is not yeast that is suspended. I used WLP300 in the porter and Nottingham in the APA and the Stout. The stout was pitched on the the APA yeast cake. The APA is the worst followed by the porter and the stout is the clearest.

The beers are pretty good but far from great. :unsure: 

The last two brews I have done have both been chillers, keen for any ideas as to what might have happened.

Floculator

Tim


----------



## devo

browndog said:


> Back on topic
> FB, you can rack straight to your fementer, let it chill overnight, chuck it in the fridge then next day to get it to pitching temp then away you go. I have done 12 or so brews like this with no probs what so ever.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog




agreed, that's how I did my first no chill.


----------



## Ash in Perth

is the APA a bit soapy?


----------



## hupnupnee

Yes a little why?


----------



## Ash in Perth

soapy flavours can come from leaving the beer sitting on the trub for too long. soaps are chemically similar to the lipids which make up part of the trub. This is one of the reasons I disagree with the no-chiller method. Leaving the wort hot, sitting on the trub for a substantial length of time allows all sorts of reactions to take place, inlcuding getting those soapy compunds form the trub.

It can also happen when fermenting if alot of trub gets into the fermenter. cylindro conicals will fix this problem because you can let if off from onder the yeast cake.


----------



## Stuster

I'd agree with Ash re the problem coming from too much trub and it might be a good idea to rack off the trub/break material into the fermenter. My understanding though was that these reactions occurred post-fermentation. From Palmer



> Under some conditions, the yeast will also consume some of the compounds in the trub. The "fermentation" of these compounds can produce several off-flavors. In addition, the dormant yeast on the bottom of the fermentor begin excreting more amino and fatty acids. Leaving the post-primary beer on the trub and yeast cake for too long (more than about three weeks) will tend to result in soapy flavors becoming evident.



Can these reactions also occur pre-boil, Ash?


----------



## Stuster

Oh, and hupnupnee, did you really use WLP300 with a porter? :blink: 

That might explain the lack of clarity with that one. Perhaps send a bottle up to Batz for evaluation. :lol:


----------



## bindi

Stuster said:


> Oh, and hupnupnee, did you really use WLP300 with a porter? :blink:
> 
> That might explain the lack of clarity with that one. Perhaps send a bottle up to Batz for evaluation. :lol:



 Funny I thought the same thing, Hefe yeast in a porter  just Batzs style [not].
I will evaluate it for you.

now done a couple of dozen beers the no chill way and not a hint of "soap", but I do pitch 99% of the time the next day and never more then 48 hrs. After going into the cube [so far].


----------



## hupnupnee

Oops :blink: what am I talking about, I've got HEFF on the brain, I mean wlp833, I was attempting a porter in the style of the old Malt Shovel. 



Well the trub seems like it then, and it certainly makes sense to me that some soaps could form. I can see it accounting for the flavour, will that also account for the VERY server haze/murk. 
Are the lipid precursors coming from the boiled hops trub or the wort trub?

Thanks for the input.  

Tim


----------



## Bizarre

I bottled my first no chill thru the week and didnt have time to post about it. I dont like wasting water which is one reason I decided to give it a go - it tasted good on bottling - no off flavours of any description. When I'd finished boiling the brew I just left it overnight in the kettle to cool and dumped it in the fermenter the next day. It was fermented at 15C and then give a 3 day diacetyl rest at the end of ferment.

The only issue that I can see for me with no chill is when the weather warms up. I dont have a fridge spare or even one big enough to take a fermenter or a cube full of wort, and when the ambient temperature is up you will get nowhere near as much cooling, so I may have to resort to some sort of chilling of some description (not sure what tho). I had thoughts of a big bucket full of ice and water with a pump circulating thru a coil in the wort (or some sort of thing like that), but anyways thats getting away from the subject a bit.

What are others doing? I suspect most of you probably have fridges to do your final cooling in - makes me feel inadequate that I dont have one! Hehehe


----------



## Fents

Hey all just put a brew on, mashing away and its about 45 mins till im gonna boil.

Im struggling to think of a way to force chill 23litres in a 50 litre keg (50 litre keg is my cooking pot)...My missus will spit it if i use the bath and the sinks not big enuff.

With this no chill method can i put the wort straight into the fermenter from the boil and then put the fermenter in the fridge? Or even just leave it out, sealed overnight? And then once its down to yeast temp just pitch?


----------



## Stuster

That'll work, fents. I'd leave it out overnight and pop it into the fridge in the morning if it needs it. Probably best to pitch tomorrow though with this method.


----------



## Fents

Cheers Stu.

I Always pitch at 18-20c so yea was def going to wait till tommorw. Thanks again.


----------



## Ken Man Do

I got antzy and kegged up my latest NC beer. It's a Vienna lager and, though young, this beer is well on its way to becoming OUTSTANDING! It's not as clear as it will get, but I'm gonna have a hard time staying out of it. 

I detect nothing odd about this beer, nothing I could attribute to NC. This beer will make it to a few club meetings next month for some more taste-testing. By the way, if you have other tasters try your NC, don't bias them by telling them ahead of time about the method you used to cool your beer. It's the only way to get a fair assessment.

Ken


----------



## dicko

Fents said:


> Hey all just put a brew on, mashing away and its about 45 mins till im gonna boil.
> 
> Im struggling to think of a way to force chill 23litres in a 50 litre keg (50 litre keg is my cooking pot)...My missus will spit it if i use the bath and the sinks not big enuff.
> 
> With this no chill method can i put the wort straight into the fermenter from the boil and then put the fermenter in the fridge? Or even just leave it out, sealed overnight? And then once its down to yeast temp just pitch?



Hi Fents,
That will work however it would be an advantage to fermentation to transfer the wort after cooling from one vessel to the fermenter via the tap to create a lot of splashing so as to introduce some oxygen into the wort.
Wort that has been left to cool by standing will have little oxygen and may result in a poor fermentation.
Cheers and good brewing,


----------



## Ross

Hupnupnee,

Doesn't possibly explain it if the porter had the same strange taste, but cooling unsealed with just some alfoil is not going to keep wild yeast etc at bay. As the wort cools, air will be sucked into the fermenter & you're asking for trouble - especially during the cooling of the evening when air bourne contaminants tend to fall back to ground level. This is not such a risk if storing inside, but if you're outside like I am, then it could be a real problem. Murky brews not clearing with strange off tastes, is a common condition of wild yeast contamination, to which I've lost a couple of worts to, on windy days...

cheers Ross


----------



## andrewg

I've slowly been reading through the huge number of posts on the no chill method and am very tempted to retire my immersion chiller (esp with the current water restrictions).
One thing I am still unclear on - it is ok to have a bit of space above the wort or should the cube should be full to the brim? If there is some space/air gap does this result in poorer quality beer due to some oxidation of the wort prior to fermentation?
cheer
HStB


----------



## DJR

HaigStBrewery said:


> I've slowly been reading through the huge number of posts on the no chill method and am very tempted to retire my immersion chiller (esp with the current water restrictions).
> One thing I am still unclear on - it is ok to have a bit of space above the wort or should the cube should be full to the brim? If there is some space/air gap does this result in poorer quality beer due to some oxidation of the wort prior to fermentation?
> cheer
> HStB



Just squeeze it out - put some gloves or a t-shirt between you and the hot jerry can, squeeze it against something, tighten the cap and there you go, no headspace is optimal for long storage times but for an overnight chill some headspace is acceptable. I've done 10 no-chill brews now, with some headspace, and no problems yet.


----------



## Ken Man Do

You know, if you put an airlock with a sanitizer soaked cotton ball on your container, you don't have to worry about vacuums, crushing, or infections. Can you rig up such a thing on these jerry cans?


----------



## DJR

Ken Man Do said:


> You know, if you put an airlock with a sanitizer soaked cotton ball on your container, you don't have to worry about vacuums, crushing, or infections. Can you rig up such a thing on these jerry cans?



Drill a hole into the cap, fit a grommet, put airlock in, away you go.


----------



## devo

Ash in Perth said:


> is the APA a bit soapy?




Nope, not at all.


----------



## Blackfish

DJR said:


> HaigStBrewery said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've slowly been reading through the huge number of posts on the no chill method and am very tempted to retire my immersion chiller (esp with the current water restrictions).
> One thing I am still unclear on - it is ok to have a bit of space above the wort or should the cube should be full to the brim? If there is some space/air gap does this result in poorer quality beer due to some oxidation of the wort prior to fermentation?
> cheer
> HStB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just squeeze it out - put some gloves or a t-shirt between you and the hot jerry can, squeeze it against something, tighten the cap and there you go, no headspace is optimal for long storage times but for an overnight chill some headspace is acceptable. I've done 10 no-chill brews now, with some headspace, and no problems yet.
Click to expand...


I am so pumped! After sweating over how to save up for all that annealed copper, along come you guys saying ya dont need it! 

Hoo ray!! 

Can You leave it in the kettle overnight and then rack straight to a fermentor the next day? Is low headspace or storage the only reason for going to the cube?


----------



## DJR

Some people no-chill in their kettle, personally i think it's a bit unclean to do it that way, but plenty of people do it. You can semi-submerge the kettle into a bath or laundry tub for quite a quick chill too.


----------



## sluggerdog

I will be brewing my first double batch on the weekend which will be a no-chill brew.

My question is in regards to the double batch, I am brewing a 40 litre brew (total - 30 + 10) with a 10 litre top up of water at the end and I plan to put the brew into 2 X 20 litre cubes.

My question is how/when should I do the topup? Should I add 5 litres to the bottom of each cube and then rack the hot wort ontop of each or should I add it afterwards or into the kettle once boil is complete (hard to not splash though) or should I no-chill the 30 litres and then simply add the 10 extra when ready to ferment?

I'm probably leaning towards this last way (like the fresh worts do) however I do not have a 30 litre cube, just 2 X 20 cubes.

Cheers
Cheers


----------



## crozdog

sluggerdog said:


> I will be brewing my first double batch on the weekend which will be a no-chill brew.
> 
> My question is in regards to the double batch, I am brewing a 40 litre brew (total - 30 + 10) with a 10 litre top up of water at the end and I plan to put the brew into 2 X 20 litre cubes.
> 
> My question is how/when should I do the topup? Should I add 5 litres to the bottom of each cube and then rack the hot wort ontop of each or should I add it afterwards or into the kettle once boil is complete (hard to not splash though) or should I no-chill the 30 litres and then simply add the 10 extra when ready to ferment?
> 
> I'm probably leaning towards this last way (like the fresh worts do) however I do not have a 30 litre cube, just 2 X 20 cubes.
> 
> Cheers
> Cheers



Slugger,

I suggest that you play around with your volumes and post boil gravities so you end up with 2 x 20l cubes filled post boil at the required gravity or only needing a small water addition to get to your desired volume in the fermenter. beersmith & promash both have useful dilution tools to help with this. note this assumes you have the boiler volume to cope.

FWIW I do exactly this but with the ESB 15l cubes, I put around 17l @ 1058 in them to allow for dilution in the fermetner. Basically I make a smaller volume higher gravity brew which I no chill & dilute when I ferment - just like the fresh worts you buy :super: It is a little bit more brain work when planning your brew, but once done,, you just follow the recipe  Remember the KISS principle.

Beers

Crozdog


----------



## sluggerdog

cheers crozdog, I have setup beersmith to allow the 40 litre final volume with 10 litre topup at the end. I am doing it this way as I am using a 50 litre keg and I won't be able to boil anymore. (already boiling 44 litres.

I just found another 10 litre cube so I will do the 30 litres and add water at fermentation stage.


----------



## AndrewQLD

I would be adding at fermentation stage also Slugger, seems a bit safer that way h34r: and is basically what is done for the wort kits too.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Darren

I know, I know I shouldn't be posting in this thread but if I was to go down the no-chill path I would add the water at flame-out. This will essentially sanitise the water and also increase the rate of chilling.

cheers

Darren


----------



## goatherder

Darren said:


> I know, I know I shouldn't be posting in this thread but if I was to go down the no-chill path I would add the water at flame-out. This will essentially sanitise the water and also increase the rate of chilling.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




Good point but I reckon it would drop the temp of the wort and hence reduce the pasteurising potential in the cube.

I'd be adding the water into the fermenter, ala fresh wort kits and K&K. Preboil and cool your water if you are concerned about the quality.


----------



## bindi

goatherder said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I know I shouldn't be posting in this thread but if I was to go down the no-chill path I would add the water at flame-out. This will essentially sanitise the water and also increase the rate of chilling.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point but I reckon it would drop the temp of the wort and hence reduce the pasteurising potential in the cube.
> 
> I'd be adding the water into the fermenter, ala fresh wort kits and K&K. Preboil and cool your water if you are concerned about the quality.
Click to expand...



Ditto Goatherder, do not add at flame out  Mine goes in the cube close to boiling.


----------



## Darren

If you were to pitch in the morning after brewday and had sanitised your cube, pasteurisation would play an insignificant role. Therefore adding the water at flame-out would be the obvious way to go as you would essentially be sanitising the additional water and increasing the cooling rate.

If you were not very sanitary and were relying on pasteurisation for longer-term wort storage then don't add the water at flame out.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Weizguy

Darren said:


> If you were to pitch in the morning after brewday and had sanitised your cube, pasteurisation would play an insignificant role. Therefore adding the water at flame-out would be the obvious way to go as you would essentially be sanitising the additional water and increasing the cooling rate.
> 
> If you were not very sanitary and were relying on pasteurisation for longer-term wort storage then don't add the water at flame out.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren


C'mon Darren,

That's enough posts for now.

Come back later, when we're doing stupid or dangerous stuff again.

BTW, thanks for the timely post on this occasion.

I cooled my last batch in sanitised fermentors for a few days until some of the wort had been turned into yeast culture for the batch. I came up a little low on volume after the boil, got 80% efficency (I thank JW wheat), and will have to dilute each fermentor with 1 litre before bottling.

Bring on the NSW Kmas Kase.

Seth out
* Edit - spelliG


----------



## browndog

> am so pumped! After sweating over how to save up for all that annealed copper, along come you guys saying ya dont need it!
> 
> Hoo ray!!
> 
> Can You leave it in the kettle overnight and then rack straight to a fermentor the next day? Is low headspace or storage the only reason for going to the cube?



No need to leave it in the kettle mate, I have done 12 or more NC now and all I do is at flame out, whirlpool for a few minutes, let the wort sit for 15min or so then rack the hot wort straight to my fermenter, leave it overnight to cool, them it's into the fermenting fridge in the morning. By noon the wort is down to 18C and time to pitch. Never had a problem and never had a complaint and saved many litres of precious water.


cheers

Browndog


----------



## jimmyjack

Well I have just filtered, polyclared my first no chill pale ale. I have to say I am not satisfied with the clarity of this beer. Dont get me wrong this is a sensational tasting beer, by no means am I dumping on the no chill method, it just did not give me the results I thought it would have. No more no chill for me.


Cheers, JJ


----------



## sluggerdog

jimmyjack said:


> Well I have just filtered, polyclared my first no chill pale ale. I have to say I am not satisfied with the clarity of this beer. Dont get me wrong this is a sensational tasting beer, by no means am I dumping on the no chill method, it just did not give me the results I thought it would have. No more no chill for me.
> 
> 
> Cheers, JJ



Jimmy, I don't want to knock you however I don't think your clarity problem is to do with the no-chill method, I have done around 15 no chill brews now, 11 of them being german pilsners, all came out crystal clear..

Maybe give it another go? :huh: 

Photo attached is the beer I am drinking now, a no chill 100% german pilsner malt.


----------



## Stuster

I'm with sluggerdog. My no chill beers have come out clear. I'm surprised that yours hasn't after polyclar and filter have done their jobs. What yeast did you use? How long was the beer fermented (and CCed?)? :unsure:


----------



## jimmyjack

> Jimmy, I don't want to knock you however I don't think your clarity problem is to do with the no-chill method, I have done around 15 no chill brews now, 11 of them being german pilsners, all came out crystal clear..




no your not knockin me, I am suprised that mine didnt come out clear either. I drained straight into the fermenter and let it cool over night, admittedly there was not much cold break in the bottom. I then put in fridge to get pitching temp and then pitched us 56. fermented fine and sat in primary for two weeks. I racked to corny for further two weeks. The only thing that makes since to me is the fact that I did not ditch alot of the cold break from rapid chilling. Oh well I will give it one more shot.

Cheers, JJ


----------



## browndog

Hi JJ,
Mate, how long after flame out are you racking to your fermenter? Mine sits for about 15min or so after flame out and I am amazed how clear the wort is when transfering to the fermenter and how much break material is left in the kettle. This break material is also very well defined and solidly formed (if you get my drift) Maybe the haze is a different issue. :blink: 

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

I did my first no-chill on Saturday and on Sunday around midday I marked the level of wort on the jerry can with a texta as I was worried it might leak (wort dropping under the marks would either indicate a leak or infection as both might cause expansion of the somewhat squeezed jerry). 

As I used a jerry can I was also concerned about the fact that I couldn't purge all the air out by squeezing and this will have to sit for at least a week before hitting the fermenter. 

Today the level is noticably higher than the marks I made, yet the temperature seems pretty much the same (only testing with the back of my fingers though). 

My assumption is that, should an infection have taken hold, then it would certainly be lower by now due to farts from the bugs causing the jerry to expand, since it has been almost two days since I "cubed" it...would that be about right and it's fine? :huh: 

PZ.


----------



## jimmyjack

> no your not knockin me, I am suprised that mine didnt come out clear either. I drained straight into the fermenter and let it cool over night, admittedly there was not much cold break in the bottom. I then put in fridge to get pitching temp and then pitched us 56. fermented fine and sat in primary for two weeks. I racked to corny for further two weeks. The only thing that makes since to me is the fact that I did not ditch alot of the cold break from rapid chilling. Oh well I will give it one more shot.



Ok second no chill. This time added Koppaflak to the boil, drained straight from boiler to fermenter and sit for 24 hrs, Very clear and lots of break at the bottom. So much break I had to rack to another fermenter. Fermetned for 9 days and CCing at 3 right now. Probably one of the clearest beers Ive brewed. I believe my first attempt was cloudy due a number of issues not related to the "No Chill Method"


Cheers, JJ


----------



## PostModern

Fingerlickin_B said:


> My assumption is that, should an infection have taken hold, then it would certainly be lower by now due to farts from the bugs causing the jerry to expand, since it has been almost two days since I "cubed" it...would that be about right and it's fine? :huh:



If an infection takes hold, the cube/jerry/whatever will blow out like a balloon.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PostModern said:


> If an infection takes hold, the cube/jerry/whatever will blow out like a balloon.



Yeah, that's kind of (read: exactly) what I was trying to say with regards to my thoughts...thanks man :beer: 

PZ.


----------



## Weizguy

The shape of the cube will indeed balloon.
As mine did with an Altbier that showed great promise, it was more of a plastic beach ball with a handle. Lucky my lid leaked and some of the foam spilled out, on the carpet, rather than spraying the entire room with foam, from an explosion.

Seth the Pressure-bomb Altbier maker


----------



## browndog

I've done about 15 or so NC brews and with every one when I racked to the fermenter after whirlpooling the wort was always crystal clear exept last friday when the wort was noticeably cloudy. The only difference was that I used coppaflock in place of the irish moss I normally use. Anybody had a similar experience?


cheers

Browndog


----------



## jimmyjack

> I've done about 15 or so NC brews and with every one when I racked to the fermenter after whirlpooling the wort was always crystal clear exept last friday when the wort was noticeably cloudy. The only difference was that I used coppaflock in place of the irish moss I normally use. Anybody had a similar experience?



Hi Browndog when I used Koppaflak mine was cloudy going into the fermenter as i sucked up all of the break materials. The next morning you could see the break moving downwards. I let it sit for an extra 5 hours and then racked to another fermenter. It is crystal clear now!! I also boiled extremely hard for 90 minutes. So much so that i boiled too much liquid and had to dillute  

cheers, JJ


----------



## Ross

browndog said:


> I've done about 15 or so NC brews and with every one when I racked to the fermenter after whirlpooling the wort was always crystal clear exept last friday when the wort was noticeably cloudy. The only difference was that I used coppaflock in place of the irish moss I normally use. Anybody had a similar experience?
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



That's because Koppafloc works so much better than irish moss. If you are no chilling, there should be plenty of break in your cube/fermenter the next day, as the cold break won't have formed before you transfer. 

cheerds Ross


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

I no-chilled my transfer hose!  

On Saturday I did a brew and got a blockage when transferring to the jerry can. 

Couldn't for the life of me find where it was...I stuck skewers up the ass of the tap/pickup and all sorts of things. 

I even thought I was having a siphon problem, as it came late in the drain when the kettle volume was low, so I cut the hose shorter. 

Lost my grip on the cut off length (read: pretty much most of the hose) and it slipped down into the jerry. 

I know it shouldn't be a problem, but at least it'll be a good test of my plumbing sanitation regime :lol: 

PZ.

*edit* - Oh yeah, and the blockage was a hop flower in the reduced-bore hose tail on the outlet side of the tap


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

And after four days in a jerry the once perfectly clear hose looks like this: 





Looks even greener in real life...almost glows in the dark :blink: 

Just spent the last few minutes sniffing it. Mmmmm, hoppy :chug: B) 
PZ.


----------



## Linz

So, 

you're dropping the hot wort into the cube and sealing it....

..then leave it stay where its filled for overnight or so?

..or...

..rushed off to the fridge to chill there???


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

That was my initial worry Linz....as I didn't have fridge to cool the cube in. 

Turns out some guys on here are leaving their wort at ambient temps for weeks before hitting the fermenter. 

FWIW, mine were (only done two so far) at room temp for about four days each before transferring to the fermenter and pitching yeast. Both smelled and tasted fine from the cube and no signs of problems yet...although they are both still in primary  

PZ.

*edit* - I left out the fact that although some folks seem to wait for it to cool to around 80deg, I just did mine pretty much as soon as the boil was finished (a tea towel and oven mits really help if you don't want to burn yourself on the cube...also I squeezed it between the front of my knees and the wall as I was worried about the boiling hot jerry springing a leak between my legs  ).


----------



## Linz

ta


----------



## Jye

Ive tried to keep up with this thread so if this has already been covered just point me to the post  

Does anyone use their wort to step up a yeast starter? I imagine it would be useful when make a 2L+ starter, so you can pitch the entire starter instead of chilling and decanting.

Cheers
Jye


----------



## nifty

Jye said:


> Ive tried to keep up with this thread so if this has already been covered just point me to the post
> 
> Does anyone use their wort to step up a yeast starter? I imagine it would be useful when make a 2L+ starter, so you can pitch the entire starter instead of chilling and decanting.
> 
> Cheers
> Jye



Hi Jye, I do. 

I fill a 1.5 litre glass fruit juice jar, then fill the cube. I store the jar in the fridge untill I need it.

While the cube is no chilling, I kick off the starter, and step it up using the wort saved. I boil the wort before using it.

cheers

nifty


----------



## warrenlw63

Probably makes sense given the fact I racked my no chill from cubes to fermenters last night and tossed out round about 3 litres of good wort. <_< 

Warren -


----------



## Hogan

nifty said:


> While the cube is no chilling, I kick off the starter, and step it up using the wort saved. I boil the wort before using it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> nifty




No need to reboil the wort as it has already been through that process. Leave the lot in the kettle overnight, rack off the next day to your fermenter and set aside your 2lts for the starter. Even when its cold the temp the day after the boil will still be around 23c. (26c in current Sydney temps) Pitch your yeast to the starter and keep your wort at pitch temp until the stater kicks off.

Cheers, Hoges.


----------



## nifty

Hogan said:


> No need to reboil the wort as it has already been through that process. Leave the lot in the kettle overnight, rack off the next day to your fermenter and set aside your 2lts for the starter. Even when its cold the temp the day after the boil will still be around 23c. (26c in current Sydney temps) Pitch your yeast to the starter and keep your wort at pitch temp until the stater kicks off.
> 
> Cheers, Hoges.



I generally don't start fermenting for 4 to 5 days after brew day, so the wort stays safely sealed in the cube. 

The reason I boil the wort for the starter is because I kick it off with a very small amount of yeast and then over the next few days step it up a couple of times. This means the glass container holding the wort reserved for the starter has been opened a few times exposing it to whatever happens to be floating around at the time. It's easy to just tip what I need into an erlenmyer flask, boil it for 10 mins, cool it then shake the bejesus out of it to aerate it, then pour it into the starter flask.

cheers

nifty


----------



## JLB

Hi.
Tried my first "no-chill" today its an APA lookin forward to drinking the results.

If it's a success then there is no way im goin back to chillin the wort it saved so much time and water, fingers crossed.... 

Will definatly post results...

Cheers..


----------



## JLB

Racked the APA today and gravity read 1.008 from 1.052 no off flavours at all just a little green @the moment but it did have 170g of hops in it.

Cant wait for the end result but i have done 3 other "no chiller" brews since the APA and also convinced two mates to give it a go .

Cheers


----------



## johnno

I am also using this method now since moving to our new place.

If I had a rainwater tank and I could save the water I would still use a chiller. 
Have made 4 brews so far. 

Am Drinking the first, an APA and just bottled an Aussie ale and Wheat beer today. Still have an APA in a cube waiting for the starter to fire.

I have not noticed any difference in taste from the first brew so far and the 2 I bottled today seemed fine as well.


cheers
johnno


----------



## deebee

I'm interested to know how many brewers put no-chill brews into their Christmas case without telling the other contributors? 

Did anyone pick DMS? Blind or otherwise?

Anyone rushed to emergency with botulism?


----------



## Kai

I don't think my bock's killed anyone yet.


----------



## Pumpy

Kai said:


> I don't think my bock's killed anyone yet.




You must have use the 'No Killer Method ' :blink:


----------



## Doc

Real quick question.
I'm into the boil now for my first ever No Chill.
I've calculated the recipe for dilution eg. will have a no chill container of 15 litres that I plan to add 6 litres to to get 21 litres. No problem there.
Just thinking if I should increase the IBU's to account for the dilution as well.
Anyone ?
I've got 15 mins before the first hop addition ......

Doc


----------



## browndog

Doc, I might be too late to answer your question, but if you are diluting to your original target then I think you will be OK, if not then you may be watering the IBUs down.


cheers

Browndog


----------



## Doc

Thanks Browndog. 
Also got a reply from Duff (via SMS) to say that the IBU's will be fine.
Phew, as this is a Wiezen so their is minimal hops in it anyway, so didn't want the result to be like there was none at all 

Doc


----------



## GreggJ

I would try beersmith for an accurate recipe. The increased gravity of the wort will make the hop utilisation lower.
Cheers


----------



## Doc

GreggJ said:


> I would try beersmith for an accurate recipe. The increased gravity of the wort will make the hop utilisation lower.
> Cheers



Thanks GreggJ, but I'd already adjusted for that (thanks to Promash).

Beers,
Doc


----------



## PostModern

Also Doc, be aware that some "15L" cubes are calibrated to the mark around the edge, not full to the brim. Make sure you have enough wort to fill it or you'll end up with something like this:







That beer turned out fine, btw.


----------



## Doc

PostModern said:


> Also Doc, be aware that some "15L" cubes are calibrated to the mark around the edge, not full to the brim. Make sure you have enough wort to fill it or you'll end up with something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That beer turned out fine, btw.



Cheers PoMo. I have an extra litre or two in the boil just in case. Fingers crossed.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Phrak

So how'd ya go?


----------



## Doc

Well I got up this morning, went outside to find an uncleaned kettle :blink: and two No Chill Worts of Doctors Orders Weizen :beerbang: 

Doc


----------



## Finite

Looks great doc, are they fresh wort kit containers?

I have a few but they all had really stubbon bits of wort on the side that wouldnt come off even after a long soak in bleach...whats your secret?


----------



## Doc

Blake said:


> Looks great doc, are they fresh wort kit containers?
> 
> I have a few but they all had really stubbon bits of wort on the side that wouldnt come off even after a long soak in bleach...whats your secret?



Yes they are.
I gave them a really good rinse after using them to get all the FW Wort out.
Gave them a quick hot rinse, before filling with PSR and leaving overnight. All good and clean after that.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Uncle Fester

Blake said:


> Looks great doc, are they fresh wort kit containers?
> 
> I have a few but they all had really stubbon bits of wort on the side that wouldnt come off even after a long soak in bleach...whats your secret?




Blake,
I use dishwashing powder to soak the cube.

I find it chews through anything organic.

I then bleash at the end to sanitise.

Festa.


----------



## Finite

Ill try fester but this is a tough stain. I tried a bleach soak for a day or two and it did squat.

I do have some caustic soda, can you use that on plastic?


----------



## Doc

I also managed to get my bottle brush into it as well, but the mark was actually on the outside 

Doc


----------



## Stuster

And just to be different, I use napisan. Also works a treat on the same fresh wort kit cubes. I was told that those are actually 17.5L to the brim.

Glad to see you crossing over to the dark side, Doc. Let us know how they go. :super:


----------



## Finite

Stuster said:


> And just to be different, I use napisan.



:huh: I was under the impression that napisan is bleach. Active ingrediant in both is sodium percarbonate


----------



## Duff

Bleach is sodium hypochlorite.

Well done Doc, your CFWC will be mothballed in no time  

Cheers.


----------



## Doc

Duff said:


> Bleach is sodium hypochlorite.
> 
> Well done Doc, your CFWC will be mothballed in no time
> 
> Cheers.



Hey Duff,
Thanks for the SMS last night.
I'm sure It will still get some use when I want to pitch straight away, and when I'm using hopbacks. I have to use the pump for the hopbacks, so might as well chill anyway. 
Definitely a good alternative, as I was able to get home from work, brew and still be in bed by midnight 

Doc


----------



## jimmyjack

Hey Doc, I love the no chill method but have never tried the double batch dillution method. What was your boil volume and SG? Did you boil down to 32 litres and then split into two different cubes? This seems like a great way to do a double batch with limited capacity.

Cheers, JJ


----------



## sluggerdog

jimmyjack said:


> Hey Doc, I love the no chill method but have never tried the double batch dillution method. What was your boil volume and SG? Did you boil down to 32 litres and then split into two different cubes? This seems like a great way to do a double batch with limited capacity.
> 
> Cheers, JJ



Hey Jimmy, I have been doing this for the last 4 or so batches now, I simply setup beersmith with a new equipment profile that has a total of 40 litres with 10 litres of water top up at the end. Then set it up as usual.

I no chill into 2 cubes, 1 X 20 litre and 1 X 10 litre, works a treat!

I'm boiling in a 50 litre pot too, 45 litres which is a little bit of a struggle but only if you don't watch it, no boil over as yet, I skim and use a water bottle. Easy as.

If you only had a single batch fermenter you could just get 2 X 15 litre cubes and water them both down with 5 litres each.


----------



## warrenlw63

42 Litres of Half Nelson APA. All done and dusted. Mashed in 6.30am cleaned up and fanging for a beer at 10am. Talk about quick.

Ran the hot wort through the hopback over a total of 80g of Nelson Sauvin Flowers. Bittered with a combination of Target at 60min and Amarillo and some Amarillo and Nelson Sauvin at 15 mins. :beerbang: 

Should be nice 'n smelly.  

Warren -


----------



## jimmyjack

Ok, next batch will be a double :beerbang: Maybe try Docs Kolsch Recipe


Cheers, JJ


----------



## Doc

sluggerdog said:


> Hey Jimmy, I have been doing this for the last 4 or so batches now, I simply setup beersmith with a new equipment profile that has a total of 40 litres with 10 litres of water top up at the end. Then set it up as usual.



I did a similar thing using Promash. Used the Dillution calculator to work out what my OG needed to be for the amout of water I was planning on diluting with.
Then scaled the recipe up using the scale button to get the OG, and all was good.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## mikem108

I guess the list of "no-chillers" is bound to grow now that level 4 water restrictions are looming! Are there any heat exchanger ideas out there untilizing an old fridge'n' stuff ?


----------



## neonmeate

the list of no-chillers has shrunk by one person - I've decided there's too much DMS in my beers because of this method.


----------



## DJR

neonmeate said:


> the list of no-chillers has shrunk by one person - I've decided there's too much DMS in my beers because of this method.



Are you using mainly euro/british malts NM? Haven't noticed it in the beers that i have used Joe White malts in (low levels of DMS precursor).


----------



## Jazzafish

neonmeate said:


> the list of no-chillers has shrunk by one person - I've decided there's too much DMS in my beers because of this method.



I had the same issue with a pilsner a while ago... But I had a fair head gap in the cube. However I pressed on and found that it was a one off. 

I did a kolsch with a 80 to 90% pils malt and it was fine for dms.

No chill is still a good method for me


----------



## warrenlw63

I did a no chill pilsner that displayed a little. OTOH I've done some immersion chilled and pond pump and ice chilled down to 14 degrees Pilsners that have had a little too.

So didn't really sway me a I guess. All my other no chills have been totally devoid of DMS. :chug: 

Warren -


----------



## Doc

neonmeate said:


> the list of no-chillers has shrunk by one person - I've decided there's too much DMS in my beers because of this method.



Out of interest, how long do you boil for, and do you do quite a vigourous boil ?

Brewed my second No Chill beer on Friday night. Got my volume and gravity perfect this time. Two 15 litre full cubes of Oatmeal Choc Porter.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## neonmeate

usually boil at least 90 mins, good rolling boil.
most of my beers have been fine, the ones with ale malt, or lots of hops to hide behind. but lately i've had a few made with weyermann pilsener in most of the grist that have had nasty vegetabley flavours and aromas in varying degrees. even my stout had a bovril taste that i put down to the collision of DMS and dark malts, like in burragorang bock for example. 

I'm sure that there are other variables involved but it seems too much of a coincidence that my brewing practice has stayed the same except for nochill, and i've had a high incidence of DMS. makes sense to me seeing as DMS is continually produced at temps above 70C but only expelled by boiling.

so i'm getting the old coil out again - i want to look into plate chillers too once i can afford to get a new kettle with a tap.


----------



## MAH

neonmeate said:


> I'm sure that there are other variables involved but it seems too much of a coincidence that my brewing practice has stayed the same except for nochill, and i've had a high incidence of DMS. makes sense to me seeing as DMS is continually produced at temps above 70C but only expelled by boiling.



It's not quite true that DMS is continually produced at temps above 70C. DMS can only be produced if there is the SMM precursor. No precursor and no matter how long it sits above 70C there will be no DMS via this pathway. Which is why I think people using Aussie malts with a low level of precursors and a good long boil have been successful with this method



neonmeate said:


> lately i've had a few made with weyermann pilsener in most of the grist that have had nasty vegetabley flavours and aromas in varying degrees.



Bit surprised that it happened with Weyerman malts. Last year I made a number of pilsners using nothing other than Weyerman Pils and a small addition of Carapils, all no-chilled. I had no problems at all with off flavours. I assumed that Weyerman malts also must be low in SMM.

Anyway, sorry to hear about the vegetable falvours in your brews. Always a PIA when you've put time and effort into a brew for it to be less than you expected.

Cheers
MAh


----------



## neonmeate

i would think that if you're going to get dms from any malt you're going to get it from German pils malts. I never use Australian pilsener malt so I guess no-chilling is not a good technique for the beers I want to make. A little bit of dms is nice in a bock but by and large i'm not into the stuff.

I am surprised that nobody else has noticed the same thing, and that this procedure has reached the status of orthodoxy on this site.


----------



## johnno

Doc said:


> Two 15 litre full cubes of Oatmeal Choc Porter.
> Beers,
> Doc




Off topic. But have you posted this recipe anywhere Doc? Sounds delicious. Autum will get here soon enough and the dark ales wil be flowing.


cheers
johhno


----------



## warrenlw63

neonmeate said:


> I am surprised that nobody else has noticed the same thing, and that this procedure has reached the status of orthodoxy on this site.





warrenlw63 said:


> I did a no chill pilsner that displayed a little.







Ahem!! 

We must have been the only ones who didn't read the little 5pt caveat on the side of the Weyermann Pils malt bag NM.

It says (my translation may be rusty). Ein it is verboden iz das Helmet Heads uzen the no chiller method for ein Pilsner malz ein swchweinbratenpigballs. :lol: 


Warren -


----------



## Doc

Have been drilling back through the topic, looking for experiences in LWH.
I see a number of you guys have done it, but what is the maximum amount of hops you have put in the cube ?
I'm thinking for my next hopburst, instead of chilling and running through the hop backs, adding a 100gr to the cube (15 litres). Have you guys been adding flowers, plugs or pellets ? 

Doc


----------



## Kai

All three, doc. Never much more than 50g or so though.


----------



## tangent

do you chill before your hopback Doc?


----------



## warrenlw63

Doc.

Thus far I've done both (hopback & in the cube) I've found the hop character of using the hop back to be superior to adding to the cube for some reason.

Suprisingly you'd think you'd achieve fairly similar results from both YMMV. :unsure: 

Warren -


----------



## Doc

Cheers Warren.
I wonder if I can get my hopbacks to work without a pump. One maybe fine, I'm sure my dual hopbacks won't.

Doc


----------



## warrenlw63

Doc

Finding this type of model to be a joy to use without a pump. Glass lid allows you to balance the inflow to the hops vs the outflow to the cubes. Throttle the flow to the cubes a tad and you get good saturation on the bed of hops. I stick around 40g of flowers in it per sitting.  

Pot is 6.5 litres.

Warren -


----------



## Jye

Doc said:


> Have been drilling back through the topic, looking for experiences in LWH.
> I see a number of you guys have done it, but what is the maximum amount of hops you have put in the cube ?
> I'm thinking for my next hopburst, instead of chilling and running through the hop backs, adding a 100gr to the cube (15 litres). Have you guys been adding flowers, plugs or pellets ?
> 
> Doc



I threw 90g of amarillo pellets into a cube once, it didnt really give the desired result. Using them in a hopback, dry hopping or as a 5min addition would have been much better.


----------



## DJR

warrenlw63 said:


> Doc
> 
> Finding this type of model to be a joy to use without a pump. Glass lid allows you to balance the inflow to the hops vs the outflow to the cubes. Throttle the flow to the cubes a tad and you get good saturation on the bed of hops. I stick around 40g of flowers in it per sitting.
> 
> Pot is 6.5 litres.
> 
> Warren -



Warren

What sort of filter bed are you using in that? Stainless mesh? I wonder if one of those vegetable strainers would do the job.

Otherwise i might just drill a few 2mm holes in some ally sheet...


----------



## warrenlw63

DJR

Am lucky enough to have a good Vietnamese cheapie shop up the road. Pot was $8 and found a S/S vegie strainer for $2.50 with the "perfect" diameter for the pot. You can shove it in with a tiny bit of force and it sits tightly inside the pot.

Only downside is I fill 2 cubes and like to pull the basket out and change hops. Gets a little fiddly but nothing bad. Not counting the plumbing bits It only cost me around $12 to make. Unfortunately the plumbing bits were around $20.

Works like a total bloody charm. Glass lid allows you to view the liquid level. I sort of treat it a bit like fly sparging. Keep a good liquid level on the hops. :beerbang: 

I reckon if you couldn't find a strainer. A scrubbie over the exit would work OK.

Edit: Pic should better explain. 

Warren -


----------



## Lukes

Doc,
I asked about this too back in post 231.

I'm with Jye, as I tride it and did not notice any great effect other than leaf hops into the fermenter tap @ primary or a swollen hop sock stuck in the cube.

Luke


----------



## Doc

Has anyone else listened to The Brewing Network show from this week, where Colin Kaminski and the Brewcasters briefly discussed No Chill ?
I now have three NC batches fermenting. If I live until Easter I'll let you all know how they go 

Doc


----------



## barneyhanway

Doc, yeah I listened to that. VERY interesting.
What I got from it, is that Colin was saying its a really really bad idea to seal up hot stuff, that there are some very very dangerous (lethal) organisms that survive in an anaerobic state that CAN'T survive if the container is unsealed. Things like botulism.
He states that creating a vacuum (sealing something hot and letting it cool) is something you NEVER do with food, because of the risk of these things.

Things that didn't sound right to me:
1) Is there anything left to cause you harm after a 60 minute boil?
2) I know for a fact that when making preserves, jams etc that you DO create a vacuum - and that any jars of jam that fail to seal up you MUST throw out

Personally I no chill in the fermenter with an airlock on - air gets drawn back in as it cools. And I pitch the next day. Never had an infection (from this) yet, touch wood.

Those of you who seal might want to do some more research.


----------



## Doc

Hey BH,

That is a good concise wrap of the comments from the show.

A couple of issues of BYO ago they did an article on canning/preserving wort for starters. Again as you state, under a sealed environment that would create a vacum. They had a disclaimer and info on botulism etc, but basically said, if your process is sound, you shouldn't have any problems.

I just keep reminding myself of the Fresh Wort Kits that having been being produced for years.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Doc said:


> I just keep reminding myself of the Fresh Wort Kits that having been being produced for years.



... and as someone else alluded to, Fowlers Vacola and the like. Think of all the things that you can buy in jars and might be tempted to eat.

I have absolutely NO expertise in this matter, but it just doesn't seem right that we haven't heard more about all these people dying of stuffed olive poisoning.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> ... and as someone else alluded to, Fowlers Vacola and the like. Think of all the things that you can buy in jars and might be tempted to eat.
> 
> I have absolutely NO expertise in this matter, but it just doesn't seem right that we haven't heard more about all these people dying of stuffed olive poisoning.
> 
> Or am I missing something?




Yeah, you're missing something. Not that I think its a biggie but... in this case an error in judgement gets you dead.

Canned goods that are sealed under vacuum fall into 2 categories. High acid and lower acid.

High acid foods eg: jars of "canned" tomatoe sauce like maybe your mum used to make, are high acid and they are OK to seal up having been heated no hotter than boiling. The things like botulism that aren't sorted out by the heat, are fixed up by the acid levels.

Lower acid foods (and I dont know what the actual ph levels are) dont have the protection of the acidity and ther fore need to be heated to a level that will kill the spores of anaerobic nasties like botulism. In the case of Botulism A (I think thats the one) the heat required to kill it is 121C and you can only get your canned goods this hot if you use a pressure cooker to heat the jars. 

Pretty damn small chance of it happening toyour wort I suppose, after all, as has been pointed out, there ARE the ESB kits. The trouble is, you dont just get sick... Get unlucky and eat a jar of boutlism effected mung beans, and fall over dead a couple of days later.

I think that I would really like to try No-Chill, but I reckon I'm gonna make sure that when the wort is cooling down it can get some air. Nice sterile filter in the lid. A little paranoid maybe, but better safe than sorry.

Thirsty


----------



## Darren

barneyhanway said:


> Doc, yeah I listened to that. VERY interesting.
> What I got from it, is that Colin was saying its a really really bad idea to seal up hot stuff, that there are some very very dangerous (lethal) organisms that survive in an anaerobic state that CAN'T survive if the container is unsealed. Things like botulism.
> He states that creating a vacuum (sealing something hot and letting it cool) is something you NEVER do with food, because of the risk of these things.
> 
> Things that didn't sound right to me:
> 1) Is there anything left to cause you harm after a 60 minute boil?
> 2) I know for a fact that when making preserves, jams etc that you DO create a vacuum - and that any jars of jam that fail to seal up you MUST throw out
> 
> Personally I no chill in the fermenter with an airlock on - air gets drawn back in as it cools. And I pitch the next day. Never had an infection (from this) yet, touch wood.
> 
> Those of you who seal might want to do some more research.




Now that is funny. Brew gurus talking about the dangers of botulism in anaerobically stored wort.

Why don't you hear about people dying from botulism these days. That is purely because they are just a "blip" on the radar. 

Population of USA 301,173,523 people, 20-30 REPORTED outbreaks annually. Just a blip. You can bet they were very sick though.



Think about it. If one of you "no-chillers" does die from botulism, who is going to report it here :huh: ?

If chilling is pointless it does make me wonder why hundreds of years of brewing practice (chilling) can be surpassed by in the year 2006-7 with such an obvious simple process (no-chill). Maybe people are smarter today or just ignorant  

cheers

Darren


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Google gave me this URL which has a goodly amount of information:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

I am now confused between 80degC and 121degC.


----------



## Jase

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Google gave me this URL which has a goodly amount of information:
> 
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html
> 
> I am now confused between 80degC and 121degC.




C botulinum is distributed widely throughout the environment and can be found in soil, freshwater and saltwater sediments, household dust, and on the surfaces of many foods. The toxins produced are cytoplasmic proteins (mass = 150 kDa) released as cells lyse. While the spores survive 2 hours at 100C (but die rapidly at 120C), the exotoxin is heat labile. It becomes inactivated after 1 minute at 85C or 5 minutes at 80C. 


I'm even more confused now :blink: 

Cheers,
Jase


----------



## Darren

Not too difficult. The spores survive the boil, get into your no chilled jerry. The spores then come out of their vegetative state (in your wort) and begin to multiply and produce toxins. You add your yeast ferment. Toxin is still present. Drink beer. Get sick.

cheers

Darren

(PS I have never read a reported case of beer related botulism. That could simply be that 99% of people have always chilled rapidly then fermented. I guess there is always a first 8) )


----------



## Batz

Could you not get this by just sitting around eating a few nibbles at a brewers meet?A dip sounds interesting

Batz


----------



## Darren

Batz,

Plenty of oxygen at most brewers meeting (as well as numerous other gasses from my experiences).

The environment needs to be oxygen free, just like boiled, cubed wort.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Bobby

I may have missed something here but this is confusing me, if the botulism spores are present in a given wort. What difference does it make if it is chilled or not chilled? Wont they still be present in the resultant beer?


----------



## Aussie Claret

Surely if there were any infection of any sort then it would become quite obvious as the jerry can or other storage vessel in time would expand, would it not?

I'm a no chiller and it has worked for me, I keep every thing covered when tranferring wort into my jerry can limiting the exposure to any infection (but not I suppose eliminating entirely); however I transfer when very hot which pasturises the contents of the jerry. Yes yes yes perhaps botulism may live in 100c wort thats been boiled for 60-90 minutes but if this is the case how come it hasn't been a problem for the hot wort manufacturers? 

Like I said never had a problem and will continue with this method in the foreseeable future.

AC


----------



## Darren

Bobby, that is right. But chilled wort that is oxygenated and fermented will not support the growth of the bacteria (anaerobic). Alcohol further inhibits the growth. So if you chill, airate and pitch there are no worries. No chill, no, oxygen and store you COULD have a problem.

cheers

Darren


----------



## KillerRx4

Is wort after the boil 100% oxygen free? 
Do you get 0% airation when transferring to the cube? 
Do you remove 100% headspace when capping it off?

Would any of these inhibit the growth of these botulism nasties?


----------



## Darren

Aussie Claret said:


> Surely if there were any infection of any sort then it would become quite obvious as the jerry can or other storage vessel in time would expand, would it not?
> 
> Yes yes yes perhaps botulism may live in 100c wort thats been boiled for 60-90 minutes but if this is the case how come it hasn't been a problem for the hot wort manufacturers?
> 
> 
> AC




Claret,

Thats not maybe. Its fact. Why it hasn't been a problem yet doesn't mean that it isn't going to be a problem sometime down the track.  

I suspect hot wort manufacturers have a much better process than most homebrewers I know. Plus, they nearly always use NEW jerrys.

cheers

Darren

(I will shut up now)


----------



## warrenlw63

Darren said:


> (I will shut up now)



Can we get that in writing?  

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

it is...!
but i'm sure its not legally binding...


----------



## Adamt

Darren said:


> (I will shut up now)



Stop lying!  


Just read about how the pH affects growth/kills botulin. I know wort can be quite acidic, would this, in combination with temperature be enough to eliminate it?


----------



## Ross

Darren said:


> Plus, they nearly always use NEW jerrys.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> (I will shut up now)



No they don't - They reuse the old ones.

cheers..


----------



## DJR

Hmm, nutrient rich solution with very low oxygen... sounds like fermented, carbonated and packaged beer!

Run for the hills!

ESB do re-use old ones, although they are getting big on using campden tablets now.

Could the whole wort pH/hot temperature/antimicrobial properties of hops be a protector for our no-chilled wort and packaged beer?

Anyway, chill out, if c. botulinum affects your cube it will swell up.

Edit: Found this: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6251461.html



> The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavor from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.



1ppm of hop compound = 1 IBU. So watch out you people making Bud Light clones


----------



## browndog

It would be great (and maybe end the debate once and for all) if we could get someone from ESB to comment on their process and why it works.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Jase

browndog said:


> It would be great (and maybe end the debate once and for all) if we could get someone from ESB to comment on their process and why it works.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Was thinking exactly the same thing. Maybe someone in the industry who regularly post here can contact Matt Donelan (sp?) from St Peters Brewery to see how the process works.

Cheers,
Jase


----------



## Adamt

I would also like to know their inflation rate; that is, inflated cubes of course


----------



## craig maher

Jase said:


> Was thinking exactly the same thing. Maybe someone in the industry who regularly post here can contact Matt Donelan (sp?) from St Peters Brewery to see how the process works.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jase



or Scotty or Dave from NNL?


----------



## johnno

I have used this method all year, made about 8 brews with it so far. Beer tastes great.

Having said that I am in the process of installing a water tank. Once that tank is in and I have water in it I am going back to using a counterflow chiller. (and hosing the driveway down).

No Chill may work fine but there is always a nagging thought at the back of my mind.

Oh and I want to start using the pump again, so I can be a real brewer  

cheers
johnno


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

browndog said:


> It would be great (and maybe end the debate once and for all) if we could get someone from ESB to comment on their process and why it works.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



I guess another debate closer would be for someone to die from their beer... Hmmm - may not work. :blink:


----------



## Adamt

I'm sure we can find someone willing to make and drink enough beer to find botulism, or at least die trying


----------



## PostModern

DJR said:


> Found this: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6251461.html
> 1ppm of hop compound = 1 IBU. So watch out you people making Bud Light clones



I'd like to see something back that up. If so, debate over. Then begins the no-chill gruit debate.


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> (I will shut up now)



I find that as doubtful as the chance of botulinum growing in a cube of wort.


----------



## DJR

PostModern said:


> I'd like to see something back that up. If so, debate over. Then begins the no-chill gruit debate.



http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...27/ai_n10532457



> Barney also has patented the use of acid hops in toothpaste, mouthwash and tooth powders to kill Streptococcus mutans, the bacteria most responsible for dental cavities. All of the patents have been assigned to Miller Brewing.
> 
> In addition, beta acid hops can kill Staphylococcus, the bacteria responsible for one of the most common types of food poisoning as well as for acne. *And it can kill Clostridium, the bacteria responsible for potentially lethal botulism poisoning.*
> 
> For a century it was believed -- and later proved -- that acid hops were anti-microbial, capable of killing the lactic-acid bacteria that causes beer to spoil. Acid hops are contained in hops and released during the kettle boiling phase of beer-making. The acid hops remain in beer but also can be extracted from the hops after that stage, Barney said. The specific compound that fights bacteria is extracted in turn from the acid hops.
> 
> Barney decided to investigate acid hops' other anti-bacterial effects, if any, in 1989 simply out of curiosity. *He quickly found it had a broad effect, almost universally effective against all Gram- positive bacteria. Gram-positive or -negative refers to a bacterium's ability to be stained during laboratory tests.*
> 
> Even better, Barney found the concentration of acid hops needed to kill the germs was 100 to 1,000 times less than other, existing anti- bacterial agents. That means it is more potent and potentially cheaper to use. It also is a natural compound.
> 
> That doesn't necessarily make acid hops better, but it probably makes it more marketable to a phobic public that thinks natural is better and artificial is bad, Barney and other Miller officials acknowledged.
> 
> Barney's findings languished at Miller for years, because, frankly, the company didn't care.
> 
> "It didn't fit into our core business," which is to make a high- quality, great-tasting beer, said David S. Ryder, vice president of brewing, research and quality assurance at Miller.
> 
> When you think about it, beer -- because of the acid hops already in it, the germ-killing effects of alcohol, pasteurization and the use of clean, filtered water -- is about the safest food product in the world. You won't get food poisoning, acne or cavities from beer (OK, maybe stinky breath).
> 
> *Ryder pointed out that even when pasteurized beer goes bad, it does not contain organisms that will cause disease in humans. It will taste and smell terrible, but it won't give you the green-apple quick- step that spoiled potato salad will.*
> 
> The potential use is so hush-hush that an outside official who is helping Miller market the patents would say only that he expects the first use of the germ-killing acid hops to be introduced soon in a toothpaste and mouthwash in Europe.


----------



## PostModern

Nicely done, DJR. Now I feel safer having drunk all those no-chill beers.

Darren, were you not aware that 1IBU or more of alpha acids killed botulinum? What say you now?


----------



## Adamt

Win-win situation PoMo.

Either Darren comes to the dark side (no-chill), or he stays out of the no-chill debate! :beer: But where would be the fun in that?


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

"It didn't fit into our core business," which is to make a high- quality, great-tasting beer, said David S. Ryder, vice president of brewing, research and quality assurance at Miller.


They clearly did not (and still do not) have time for anything else. Let me know when they achieve their goal...


----------



## Finite

*DISCLAIMER: Im not a doctor, I dont study microbiology, all of this is from information I have read from generally reputable sources on the internet and books. Dont ue me if im wrong.*

From what I understand, and feel free to correct me.

Botulinum toxin is one of if not the most poisonous naturally occurring substances in the world. It is used in minute doses in medicine to cure muscle spasims and for cosmetic uses, botox anyone? To put it in perspective 100gm is enough to kill every human on earth. 

Food borne botulinum which we are talking about here is the result of food that has been contaminated in an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment. This allows the spores to grow, the growing bacteria produce the toxin. Botulism-causing bacteria and their spores are everywhere, in soil and marine sediments worldwide, their spores are often found on the surfaces of fruits and vegetables, and in seafood. The bacteria and spores themselves are harmless; the dangerous substance is the toxin produced by the bacteria when they grow.

Canned food is the obvious noteable contender here, ususal the signs of a puffed up, rusted or mistreated can are an imediate sign to NOT open the can or consume the contents, I would sudgest if your no chill cube is bloated or smells off that you dont even bother tasting it. Foods which a low acid content, such as carrot juice, corn, celery etc are more suceptable to producing the toxin. As such many commercial canned goods are required to undergo a "botulinum cook" which acording to The Institute of Food Science and Technology in USA is "The heat treatment given to a low acid canned food (having a pH higher than 4.2) sufficient to inactivate 1012 spores of Clostridium botulinum. This heat treatment is called the Fo value and it is equivalent to a process of 3 mins at 121C, 10 mins at 115C or 32 mins at 110C." Beer can vairy but usualy falls between 5.3 - 5.0 after the boil, prior to fermentation which means it *IS *suceptable if not treated. The botulinum cook is the amount of heat processing required to reduce the chance of survival of a botulinum spore to 1 in 1000000000000. High-acid foods contain enough acid (ph of 4.6 or less) so that the _Clostridium botulinum_ spores cant grow and produce their deadly toxin. The spores must have an oxygen-depleted, low-acid environment in which to grow, and prefer temperatures between 4.5C and 60C. 

Acording to the US Food and Drug Administration "One basic recommendation is to cook food to be canned in pressure cookers because they can maintain temperatures high enough (above 212 F, or 100 C) for 10 minutes to kill the spores". Another Microbioligy book I read says that boiling the food for 10 minutes or longer is sufficiant to kill the spores. The most common source of the the toxin is food which has been heated and left to sit in a sealed container. As such the FDA recomends that foods cooked at home and not treated for botulinum should not be left at temperatures between 40 F and 140 F (4.5 C to 60 C) for more than four hours. The toxin that may have formed can readily be destroyed by boiling the food for 10 minutes.

How does this all affect our beer?

Well from what Ive read, understand and have discussed with another person who studies pharmacy and microbioligy.

The length of a 60min or more boil then the transfer into a sanised container SHOULD be more than enough to kill bacteria that produce the toxin. I pitch my wort the day after fermentation and would sudgest you dont let it sit for to long in the no chill cube to reduce the risk. Once the wort is aerated the toxin will not be produced additionaly the PH of a fermented wort would generaly be to low for the bacteria to survive.

Botulism does exsist it is one of the most poisiones substances on earth and it will create a serious problem if your not weary of it. That being said the cases of food born botulinum in the US is about 30 a year and is becoming very very rare. If you are uncomftable with the fact that it could form in your no chill beer then dont no chill, its not worth your life. However If you maintain a strong boil for 60 mins it should not produce a problem. In the end its up to you, like alot of things in life, treat it with the respect take the steps to prevent it and it should'nt be an issue. If your afraid it will be then don't bother introducing the risk and use a chiller.

With the length of the boil I doubt it will be an issue


----------



## DJR

Blake, good post, but i get the feeling you were writing that just as i found out the info about hop acids inhibiting and killing c. botulinum. But your point about a 60min boil is a good one, however ideally we'd all go get big pressure cookers (autoclaves) and pressure can our wort cubes


----------



## Zizzle

Blake said:


> As such the FDA recomends that foods cooked at home and not treated for botulinum should not be left at temperatures between 40 F and 140 F (4.5 C to 60 C) for more than four hours.



Heh, I'm sure most people keep their left-overs in their fridge for more than a few hours. And how many fridges sustain 4 degrees C or lower?

Also I seem to remember someone saying that there has only ever been one food bourne botulism death in this country and that was a baby eating bad honey. I thought it was in this thread, but can't find it now.

In the US, 30 cases means you have a 1 in 10 million chance it happening. Are all 30 cases typically fatal?

Even so it hardly rates a mention on this chart:


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Great find DJR! B) 

I can now sleep at night - I might even consider putting a bag of hops under my pillow at nights

Hops... is there anything they can't do?

Cheers


----------



## lou

As some one who does pressure cook my starters (but no chills otherwise) I can tell you that you would not want to autoclave the whole wort - raising the temp to 121C totally changes the wort - more protein coagulates and drops out and the wort noticably darkens - also pressure cooking seems to produce alot of DMS - the wort smells pretty weired after it comes out of the bigboy

the bigboy

I always suspected there must be a very good reasson why botulism does not tend to grow in beer wort and the 
antimicrobial activity of hop acids seems fairly conclusive to me.

Consider the number of other bugs which do grow in wort (besides the ones we want in there) - surely botulism would have a go as well - yeast or no yeast if it was able to 

beer as we know is a very safe product (minus the alcohol of course :chug: )

yea blessed hops - protector of beer

may thy vines fruit in bounty and much bitterness



lou B)


----------



## Duff

browndog said:


> It would be great (and maybe end the debate once and for all) if we could get someone from ESB to comment on their process and why it works.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Gerard_M who makes the wort kits now where ESB had theirs done has addressed this point already within this thread. He was telling me Sunday that some weeks they are brewing 4 days trying to keep up with demand. Must be OK I guess.

Cheers.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

DJR said:


> ... ideally we'd all go get big pressure cookers (autoclaves) and pressure can our wort cubes



... or just get *really big* microwave ovens... h34r:


----------



## geoffi

So hop acid kills all sorts of nasties, even at low concentrations.

And yet yeast seems to thrive in its presence, even in these super-duper IBU-in-the-stratosphere IPAs some folks brew. _Saccharomyces cerevisiae_ is one tough customer.

Perhaps Benjamin Franklin was right: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy".


----------



## Kai

Just to add (repeat), since there's a lot of psuedo-science flying around in this thread; who can even say there is no oxygen in your cubed wort? I doubt any of us can rack anything and leave it oxygen free.


----------



## Batz

Cortez The Killer said:


> Hops... is there anything they can't do?
> 
> Cheers




Kill your dog  

Batz


----------



## Finite

DJR said:


> Blake, good post, but i get the feeling you were writing that just as i found out the info about hop acids inhibiting and killing c. botulinum. But your point about a 60min boil is a good one, however ideally we'd all go get big pressure cookers (autoclaves) and pressure can our wort cubes





yeah didnt see your post but oh well some more info cant hurt.


----------



## MAH

Blake not a bad summary



Blake said:


> The length of a 60min or more boil then the transfer into a sanised container SHOULD be more than enough to kill bacteria that produce the toxin.
> 
> With the length of the boil I doubt it will be an issue


However this is not the part people are disputing. The boil will kill the botulism and destroy any existing toxins, but any spores will survive even a 60 min boil at 100C. The spores then can potentialy germinate, grow, divide and produce toxins which would then be in your beer. Your point to not let your no chill beer sit for very long is a good suggestion as it would limit the chance for germination etc to occur.

I think Kai raises one of the most valid points.



Kai said:


> Just to add (repeat), since there's a lot of psuedo-science flying around in this thread; who can even say there is no oxygen in your cubed wort? I doubt any of us can rack anything and leave it oxygen free.



Botulism is extremely susceptible to the presence of oxygen and it's unlikely that any of us have no oxygen in our cubes.

In relation to question on the fatality of botulism, according to the World Health Organisation, if properly treated it has a 5%-10% fatality rate. So we are talking about a condition with an extremely low incidence rate and fatality rate. Simple answer is if you don't like those odds, then don't use this method.

Finally if we want more information on the effect of hop acids on botulism someone could shoot of to Michael Barney who discovered the phenomena at [email protected]

Cheers
MAH


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I propose a new poll:

Have you ever died from drinking beer? If so, was it:

o Botulism
o Unrecoverable Liver Damage
o Light Pole Poisoning
o Really Annoyed Neighbour/Spouse/Bouncer

That ought to settle the whole thing once and for all... :blink:


----------



## KillerRx4

Kai said:


> Just to add (repeat), since there's a lot of psuedo-science flying around in this thread; who can even say there is no oxygen in your cubed wort? I doubt any of us can rack anything and leave it oxygen free.



Looks like Darren didnt want to comment on that a couple of pages ago. Must have some merit.


----------



## andrewg

KillerRx4 said:


> Is wort after the boil 100% oxygen free?
> Do you get 0% airation when transferring to the cube?
> Do you remove 100% headspace when capping it off?
> 
> Would any of these inhibit the growth of these botulism nasties?



Interesting debate!
Like KillerRx4, I wonder how anerobic no-chill wort is. As I remember it oxygen absorption increases with temperature, so if the boiling wort is settled for 15-20min prior to transfer to the cube, the settling time and transfer should allow some uptake of oxygen. So the wort won't be 100% oxygen free - that coupled with the long boil time (90min is standard in my case) and hop acids suggests that the risk is very very low.
cheers
HStB


----------



## Darren

Darren had some real controlled science to do 8).

Hot wort will not absorb oxygen.Boiling wort will absorb none!! I see many of you are also squeezing your cubes to exclude ALL the head space to minimise the chance of oxidation.

Obviously there is no absolute that you will culture up CB in a stored wort. To all your "nay-sayers", all I am saying is that you are on the path to optimising the growth conditions. 

Strict anaerobes occupy a very small niece of microbiological space. They lay dormant almost indefinately until they encounter the correct conditions. Repeated storage in the same container (as tight arsed brewers do) only increases the likelihood of providing the right conditions.

If by some small chance you do succeed, it could be very problematic.

Sure you might be the lucky 10% who survive, your kids/friends might not be so lucky.

cheers

Darren

EDIT: I suspect spores are in all your worts waiting!!


----------



## Pumpy

Darren 



Pumpy


----------



## Darren

Pumpy,

Nah, she'll be right mate. Never happened to me or anyone else I know.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Adamt

"She'll be right mate", but if anything happens, "I told you so!"


----------



## Thirsty Boy

oh dear,

Looks like i picked the scab off an ongoing debate here. All because a guy I talk to on the Brewing Network forums was looking for a way to chill his wort without using any water...

He had a few quetions, so I pointed him at this forum, summarised some of its arguments and (at his request) asked Colin Kaminski his opinion of no-chilling.

In either case, the whole Botulism argument, was the one thing that meant that I wasn't going to be trying No-Chill, But now... well, I think that the issue has been addressed to my satisfaction.

DJRs discovery pretty much pushes me over the benefit/risk tippping point, before I thought the chance of killing yourself with no-chilled wort was pretty damn small, now I think its basically negligable. Oh I understand that its probably still there, but worrying about risks that small is pretty silly.

I would however like to say a big thanks to Darren. He is the one who has poked, prodded and needled everyone here into actually going out and finding out the facts. Yeah, there were plenty of cavalier brewers with a major dose of the "she'll be rights" but I for one dont want to be responsible for killing my friends and family. Now I have enough information to be confident that thats not going to happen because of no-chill. But without Darren's persistant badgering, none of us would have gone to the trouble.... and what if there HAD been a real risk and we HAD just been lucky so far.

I now not only feel comfortable presenting the No-Chill method to my friend in the US a something that other peple are doing, but actually reccomending it as a potentially effetive and SAFE solution to his problem.

So, Darren. I know that you probably disagree with the conclusion I have come to, but I still appreciate the care you have shown in the face of some pretty strident hanging of shit on yur person. Thanks

Thirsty


----------



## Pumpy

Darren said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> Nah, she'll be right mate. Never happened to me or anyone else I know.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




I thought everthing was sweet with Darren 

but now look what Thirsty boy has gone and done  


pumpy


----------



## jimmyjack

I no chilled a Saaz Cap on Sunday and 4 days later pitched. I also used unfiltered rain water for brew water. I tasted the wort and it tastes great! Thankgod I just updated my will!  


Cheers, JJ


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

jimmyjack said:


> I no chilled a Saaz Cap on Sunday and 4 days later pitched. I also used unfiltered rain water for brew water. I tasted the wort and it tastes great! Thankgod I just updated my will!
> Cheers, JJ



Who did you leave your beer to? :huh:


----------



## Darren

Pumpy, MAH, Thirsty,

I am still not convinced by any of the arguments that I have seen presented in this thread. 

Hops do everything including kill/inhibit spore growth. Marvellous aint it? One thing they do for sure is bitter your beer. They will also kill your greyhound. :mellow: 

Alcohol is probably the biggest inhibitor of CB as well as most other microbes (except good old yeast of course). I have seen a few reports of "bloated" cubes. I do wonder how many others have not actually been game enough to say "yeah, that happened to me too" for fear of being reprimanded by the keyboard savvy!!?

Now, as for water wastage (if that is the reason for no chill. Not that you have just started all-grain and have not yet bought/made a chiller). The mere practice of brewing is a water wasting process. There are bottles, fermenters, kettles, mash tuns, kegs, chillers  storage/crush containers, racking hoses, etc, that all need cleaning, most on brew day.

So the question that I ask is: How are you guys cleaning all that equipment? Where is that water going? What sort of volumes of water are you using to do it in bits and pieces rather than all at once?

If you are using no chill to save water, then instead, chill, and use the chill "run-off" to clean everything at once. Doesn't take much planning as all this stuff tends to accumulate fairly quickly and does correlate well with the need to make more beer.

The facts remain that no-chill is novel (by todays standards). It goes against many, many years of good brewing practice. Basically, it is slack. 

I am sure you guys are not the first to think; "Ah, what if I didn't cool the wort quickly?, it will cool by itself". "Now maybe if I didn't ferment it straight away I could store this sweet, sweet liquid". "Damn, it started fermenting, maybe if i added some, mmmmm, mmmmm, HOPS that would help". 

Facts are, that it has been all done many, many times before you were even a glint in your Great, Great, Great grandfathers eyes. Its round, it rolls, its a wheel  

Finally, whilst you no-chillers are still waiting for your wort to cool, mine is bubbling and the next time I look at it it is beer and almost fully protected against dumperbrau infection. Furthermore, all my equipment is clean. :super: 

cheers

Darren


----------



## Batz

Darren said:


> Pumpy, MAH, Thirsty,
> 
> I am still not convinced by any of the arguments that I have seen presented in this thread.
> 
> Hops do everything including kill/inhibit spore growth. Marvellous aint it? One thing they do for sure is bitter your beer. They will also kill your greyhound. :mellow:
> 
> Alcohol is probably the biggest inhibitor of CB as well as most other microbes (except good old yeast of course). I have seen a few reports of "bloated" cubes. I do wonder how many others have not actually been game enough to say "yeah, that happened to me too" for fear of being reprimanded by the keyboard savvy!!?
> 
> Now, as for water wastage (if that is the reason for no chill. Not that you have just started all-grain and have not yet bought/made a chiller). The mere practice of brewing is a water wasting process. There are bottles, fermenters, kettles, mash tuns, kegs, chillers  storage/crush containers, racking hoses, etc, that all need cleaning, most on brew day.
> 
> So the question that I ask is: How are you guys cleaning all that equipment? Where is that water going? What sort of volumes of water are you using to do it in bits and pieces rather than all at once?
> 
> If you are using no chill to save water, then instead, chill, and use the chill "run-off" to clean everything at once. Doesn't take much planning as all this stuff tends to accumulate fairly quickly and does correlate well with the need to make more beer.
> 
> The facts remain that no-chill is novel (by todays standards). It goes against many, many years of good brewing practice. Basically, it is slack.
> 
> I am sure you guys are not the first to think; "Ah, what if I didn't cool the wort quickly?, it will cool by itself". "Now maybe if I didn't ferment it straight away I could store this sweet, sweet liquid". "Damn, it started fermenting, maybe if i added some, mmmmm, mmmmm, HOPS that would help".
> 
> Facts are, that it has been all done many, many times before you were even a glint in your Great, Great, Great grandfathers eyes. Its round, it rolls, its a wheel
> 
> Finally, whilst you no-chillers are still waiting for your wort to cool, mine is bubbling and the next time I look at it it is beer and almost fully protected against dumperbrau infection. Furthermore, all my equipment is clean. :super:
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren


----------



## Darren

Batz,

Thats why you should never store homebrew in bottles on your path in the sun. Poor mailman  

cheers

Darren


----------



## Zizzle

It is safe to assume you don't drive a car then Darren?

Like you say, no-chilling is slack, rapid chilling is the tried and tested way with many years of tradition.

Driving a car is slack, walking on foot is the tried and tested way with many years of tradition.

And we all know that hoping in a car is serveral orders of magnitude more risky than no-chilling beer.


----------



## Gerard_M

Linz said:


> "i'm a fat f*^k"
> And whats wrong with being one of the above??????



Well after 44 pages & 654 posts in this topic, the one thing we can say for certain is that Linz can no longer be described in the above terms. OK so he is not yet a skinny f*^k, but he is on his way :beerbang: 
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Kai

Darren said:


> Hot wort will not absorb oxygen.Boiling wort will absorb none!! I see many of you are also squeezing your cubes to exclude ALL the head space to minimise the chance of oxidation.



Don't forget that HDPE is gas permeable.


----------



## geoffi

Darren said:


> Pumpy, MAH, Thirsty,
> 
> I am still not convinced by any of the arguments that I have seen presented in this thread.
> 
> Darren




Well then...don't do it.

I do it. It saves me time. Saves me water. Allows me to brew double batches. It has not killed me or even made me feel slightly unwell, and I do not imagine it will do so any time soon. I am in vastly greater danger of being killed by (insert just about anything here) than by some wildly improbable infection taking hold in a cube.

I believe the chances of dying from liver failure or alcohol poisoning or an alcohol-related accident are hugely, vastly, stupendously greater than those of dying from an infected cube of slowly chilled wort.

I suggest you give up drinking alcohol immediately. It is clearly far too risky an activity for any rational person to engage in.


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> Sure you might be the lucky 10% who survive, your kids/friends might not be so lucky.



Geez Darren, you give me a hard time about not looking after my wort properly, and then you go and have a few bevies with your wee ones.

As far as friends dying from my beer, you haven't kicked the bucket yet  . 

Anyone not a Croweater, wouldn't realise that Darren is one of Adelaide's most respected HBers. We actually belong to the same informal brew group and on a number of occasions he has drunk my poisonous no-chill beer :lol: .

As Thirst Boy pointed out, Darren does make people critically look at their practices, even if most people consider his comments a little abbrasive. Having looked at my practices I'm happy with them, even if Darren thinks I'm slack. Point is, that is a value judgement. If you extend the argument to it's logical conclusion, we can all improve our sanitation practices, but who can afford to build a completely sterile room? I've chosen to set the bar at a particular level, Darren sets the bar at a different level. No need for anyone to get bent out of shape over those choices (unless they're paralysed due to botulism poisoning  ).

Cheers
MAH

PS: Don't worry too much Darren, to counter my brewing slackness I have full medical cover, income protection insurance, work just across the road from Royal Adelaide Hospital, my sister-in-law is a nurse, plus I have an up to date will and a huge life insurance policy to make sure my wife is looked after.


----------



## therook

That would make Darren a hypocrite then wouldn't it???????

 

rook


----------



## MAH

therook said:


> That would make Darren a hypocrite then wouldn't it???????
> 
> 
> 
> rook



No. Ignorance is bliss. He doesn't ask, I don't tell. 

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Lukes

Hand's up who eats a couple of day's old cold pizza (BBQ Chicken) with no chill beer to wash it down.


----------



## Darren

Hey guys,

My brew set-up is probably one of the least sanitary out there.

I havent sanitised a keg for years.  

All I am saying is that unfermented wort (hopped or not) is the perfect growth medium for ALL sorts of bugs.

Nothing worse than a days work down the drain


----------



## Pumpy

Darren said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> My brew set-up is probably one of the least sanitary out there.
> 
> I havent sanitised a keg for years.
> 
> All I am saying is that unfermented wort (hopped or not) is the perfect growth medium for ALL sorts of bugs.
> 
> Nothing worse than a days work down the drain




Flip Flop 


pumpy


----------



## Lindsay Dive

Doc said:


> Well I got up this morning, went outside to find an uncleaned kettle :blink: and two No Chill Worts of Doctors Orders Weizen :beerbang:
> 
> Doc



Hey Doc, it looks as though your containers are 25 litre jobs. Where did you get them?

Lindsay.


----------



## warrenlw63

MAH said:


> Anyone not a Croweater, wouldn't realise that Darren is one of Adelaide's most respected HBers. We actually belong to the same informal brew group and on a number of occasions he has drunk my poisonous no-chill beer :lol: .



What's that analogy regarding two birds (or should that be crows) with the one stone? B) 

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

Lindsay Dive said:


> Hey Doc, it looks as though your containers are 25 litre jobs. Where did you get them?
> 
> Lindsay.



Lindsay, they look like the 15-17 litre "fresh Wort" cubes to me.
my first cube i ever bought has been my best...!
a blue 25 Litre job from Daves Homebrew in nth sydney. they are the more upright rectangular ones. Much better than the Big W square ones, which i find too thin.


----------



## warrenlw63

We devious Vics can get the 25 litre HPDE ones for $15. Strong little buggers. Secret location known only by Devo and I. That's if Devo hasn't gotten greedy and bought 'em all. :lol: 

Actually the place is Plastics and Storage Warehouse in Strathmore. They can also be had for similar prices from a lot of Vietnamese Cheap Charlie shops.  

Warren -


----------



## Doc

Hey Lindsay,

They are 17.5 litre ones (ESB/ND Fresh Wort kits).
I do have a couple of 22.5 litre ones from the Hills Brewers Braidwood Brewday, that will be getting work out shortly for the single batch Belgians.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Lukes

warrenlw63 said:


> We devious Vics can get the 25 litre HPDE ones for $15. Strong little buggers. Secret location known only by Devo and I. That's if Devo hasn't gotten greedy and bought 'em all. :lol:
> 
> Actually the place is Plastics and Storage Warehouse in Strathmore. They can also be had for similar prices from a lot of Vietnamese Cheap Charlie shops.
> 
> Warren -



$12 from my local soap supply joint in Kilsyth...


----------



## BenH

Zizzle said:


> In the US, 30 cases means you have a 1 in 10 million chance it happening. Are all 30 cases typically fatal?
> 
> Even so it hardly rates a mention on this chart:



I love this zizzle. There's a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of botulism poisoning, and a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying from alcohol poisoning. <_< 

So, we shouldn't be afraid of no-chilling. We should be afraid of drinking beer at all, just like Geoffi says!  



Geoffi said:


> I suggest you give up drinking alcohol immediately. It is clearly far too risky an activity for any rational person to engage in.



I have to admit that I started off skeptical about no-chill, but have come over to the dark-side. h34r: It just makes brew-day seem that much easier and this thread (and other no-chillers) has convinced me that there's no reason not to.

(And I'm not giving up drinking beer anytime soon!) :chug:


----------



## warrenlw63

Lukes said:


> $12 from my local soap supply joint in Kilsyth...



Why is everything cheaper in the east?  

Warren -


----------



## bugwan

warrenlw63 said:


> Why is everything cheaper in the east?
> 
> Warren -



...and why is everything I want on eBay in the east?  

Lucky buggers.


----------



## KillerRx4

We stock & sell them at my work, have pallet loads of 20 & 25lt cubes. 

Cant tell you my cost cause you would have trouble handing over ya cash for them next time


----------



## Ken Man Do

Do you know how many people have become ill from botulism in canned wort? My understanding is that the answer is zero. Zilch. Nada.

So, if this is true, should it have any effect on the hysteria?


----------



## Adamt

Compare with global warming; find for me a reputable, scientific study that proves global warming is taking place (neglecting natural climate fluctuations). Lots of hype though.


----------



## geoffi

Darren said:


> All I am saying is that unfermented wort (hopped or not) is the perfect growth medium for ALL sorts of bugs.
> 
> Nothing worse than a days work down the drain




I believe I avoid infections by using this method for the following reasons:

1. I can get a strong starter going at my leisure. When the starter is firing, away we go. No big lagtime in the fermenter.
2. I can really splash the wort into the fermenter, giving it a good dose of aeration.
3. The wort starts at high gravity, so the alcohol level quickly builds up and the hop acids are high too. I dilute at bottling time only.


----------



## apd

Lukes said:


> Hand's up who eats a couple of day's old cold pizza (BBQ Chicken) with no chill beer to wash it down.



I only eat aged pizza. I've converted an old oak wine barrel into a pizza ageing barrel. I buy my friday night pizzas on wednesday night, age them two days and voila! Oakey, two day old pizza. Nothing better.


----------



## Darren

Pumpy said:


> Flip Flop
> pumpy



No flip flop pumpy

Its the old 80/20 rule:

That is, 20% of the process causes 80% of the problems. Unfortunately, you and a few vocal others are siding with the problematic 20%.

Still no-one has answered how they wash their equipment?


Warren, you are the first to jump down someones throat but rarely offer anything but a page full of smilies and me too's  . How do you wash your kegs, MT, boiler?

Just a dribble here a dribble there? You know that doesnt wash a boiler of tun emptied of grain. 

Are you running a false economy wasting to wash but also missing the benefit if INSTANT fermentability?


cheers

Darren


----------



## bugwan

I know this probably isn't the best time and all... :unsure: 

I'm only a relatively recent all grainer and I've no-chilled the lot. I'm definitely interested in having an immersion or CFC as an option too.

So, apologies for the hijack, but are there any local brewers (Melbourneish) who would want to part with their chiller for the right price? I'm happy to pay (I'm not really cashed up) and pick up.

Apologies for tip-toeing into the mine field! A mass debate if ever I saw one  

Cheers, whatever your method.
Dave


----------



## warrenlw63

Darren said:


> No flip flop pumpy
> 
> Warren, you are the first to jump down someones throat but rarely offer anything but a page full of smilies and me too's  . How do you wash your kegs, MT, boiler?
> 
> Just a dribble here a dribble there? You know that doesnt wash a boiler of tun emptied of grain.
> 
> Are you running a false economy wasting to wash but also missing the benefit if INSTANT fermentability?
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren, that must mean that I wash everything with a lemming. <_< 

FWIW. Oh ranting one. I pull apart my kegs after each brew and soak them in boiling water and 3 teaspoons of Napisan. (Anal enough for you?) Put them back together and add 5ml of Iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake it around on and off for around 30 minutes. Drain and fill with beer.

As for the mashtun. Grain is dumped (tun is converted keg), FB is pulled out. Grain residue is hosed out then inside is wiped with green scourer.

Boiler is aluminium. After wort is drained to NO CHILL CUBES probably smart enough even in your pissed addled, paranoid state Darren to realise even wallies like you wouldn't take a scourer to an ally pot. (trust you have no issues there?)

Hope that's germ proof enough for you Howard Hughes. Hope I haven't jumped down your throat. At least I offer a lot more than your negative shit! :angry: 

Good night bitter pill.  

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

Darren said:


> Its the old 80/20 rule:
> 
> That is, 20% of the process causes 80% of the problems.



Or... the 99/1 rule in your case Darren...
1% causing 99% of the problems.

ps. we should all remember this thread was set up for "users" of the No Chill method to discuss their processes etc.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

warrenlw63 said:


> Why is everything cheaper in the east?
> 
> Warren -



That's just the way it is comrade. But we do have longer queues. h34r:


----------



## warrenlw63

But cheaper Trabants. B) 

Warren -


----------



## bugwan

There was a case of botulism reported today in The Age, after a 25 year old man was paralysed following eating pre-packaged nachos: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/man...1405487605.html

No link to no-chilling was mentioned in the article...


----------



## Pumpy

Can we rename this thread how to upset Darren .

It is unkind to continue .

there is 'No Thrill' to reading about 'No Chill' any more 

Please Bury it


----------



## browndog

How about we make a thread called "users of the no-chill" and make it *only* for users of the no-chill, not a knockers of the no-chill.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Darren

bugwan said:


> There was a case of botulism reported today in The Age, after a 25 year old man was paralysed following eating pre-packaged nachos: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/man...1405487605.html
> 
> No link to no-chilling was mentioned in the article...




Obviously someone thought that years of microbiological research was a waste of time and then decided that a few short-cuts wouldn't hurt anyone  

Oh yeah Warren, sounds like you wasted a lot of water filling your kegs  

Pumpy, I am not upset. I cop this sort of questioning everyday. Just popping it back to keep ya thinking.

cheers

Darren


----------



## KillerRx4

After reading that im a bit concerned.

"Symptoms of botulism include blurred vision, tiredness and dizziness followed by respiratory distress and paralysis."

That sounds familiar. :blink: 


Seriously though, how would thos nachos be packaged? If they were contaminated by this stuff wouldnt it be evident by swelling?


----------



## DJR

KillerRx4 said:


> After reading that im a bit concerned.
> 
> "Symptoms of botulism include blurred vision, tiredness and dizziness followed by respiratory distress and paralysis."
> 
> That sounds familiar. :blink:
> Seriously though, how would thos nachos be packaged? If they were contaminated by this stuff wouldnt it be evident by swelling?



Might have been some residual botulinum toxin, may not have been the spore itself that caused the problem. If it were toxin heating above 80C would have fixed it. I reckon be wary of any sauce that doesn't come in a jar with a safety lid!


----------



## Kai

_*bump*_

I was just thinking how this chilling method has changed my brewing habits; the last few brews I have done have all been late-hopped solely in the cube with the hot wort. It'd given some lovely hop aroma and flavour and is definitely convenient, I can just boil till I reach target gravity.

Also, the last two brews I have thrown the whirlfloc in the cube as well. You know, that quarter tab I always forget to add at 15 minutes. Not sure if it really works as well like that but I have 50 tablets so may as well use 'em.


----------



## devo

Quote Darren:_So the question that I ask is: How are you guys cleaning all that equipment? Where is that water going? What sort of volumes of water are you using to do it in bits and pieces rather than all at once?_

I've actually done this before and found the the amount of water required to chill my wort far exceeded the water required for clean up.

I've also been using the no chill method for some time now and using my tank water to clean up.



Devo


----------



## browndog

devo said:


> Quote Darren:_So the question that I ask is: How are you guys cleaning all that equipment? Where is that water going? What sort of volumes of water are you using to do it in bits and pieces rather than all at once?_
> 
> I've actually done this before and found the the amount of water required to chill my wort far exceeded the water required for clean up.
> 
> I've also been using the no chill method for some time now and using my tank water to clean up.
> Devo



Hey Devo, don't stir him up. Lets keep this thread to the *users* of the no-chill. I'd be interested to know of any *users* of the no-chill method, have had any problems with chill haze.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## apd

No probs with chill haze for me but it's a bit difficult to tell. I've only done a porter and a couple of pales with 50/50 ale/wheat malt. Obviously, the porter, being quite dark, makes it difficult to assess any haze issues. The pales should probably look hazey with the wheat they contain.

I have had problems with my bittering levels though. I used quite a bit of hops in the first pale and being left at such high temps overnight meant the beer urned out a lot more bitter than expected. I adjusted by not doing a 60 minute addition and putting less in at flameout.


----------



## Doc

The very first NC I did was 50% Pils and 50% Wheat. No chill haze for me in that beer.
Have done another five NC's since then, but only one other has made it to a keg and it is an Oatmeal Porter 

Doc


----------



## Ross

apd said:


> I have had problems with my bittering levels though. I used quite a bit of hops in the first pale and being left at such high temps overnight meant the beer urned out a lot more bitter than expected. I adjusted by not doing a 60 minute addition and putting less in at flameout.



Unless your hops are going through into your cube, this shouldn't be an issue at all. 

Cheers Ross


----------



## Batz

Ross said:


> Unless your hops are going through into your cube, this shouldn't be an issue at all.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Perhaps stale old yukky hops from a shop without a nice coolroom,my guess anyway Ross

Batz


----------



## apd

Sorry, I should have explained before.

I don't use a cube. I chill in my kettle and rack to a fermenter the next morning.

And yes, I am aware of all the negative affects that this practice may or may not have on the finished product.


----------



## Aussie Claret

I have No-chilled alot of my recent brews and have had 2 batches that were a little cloudy even after filtering and treating with polyclar; I'm not sure if this had anything to do with the No-chill or not as I had run out of gypsum so that may have been a contributing factor. The majority of batches though have been crystal clear.

I have also noticed a lack of aroma when no chilling, even with considerable flameout additions, I transfer at near boiling point, simply add the aroma hops, re-circulate a few liters of wort through the hop sock and leave for 20minutes, then transfer to jerry can which then gets dumped into the swimming pool to cool. The temp at transfer would be around +90c. I leave in the pool until it's fairly cool (for a few hours in pool) then straight into the fridge to chill to pitching temp.
Another possibility for cloudy or hazey beer could be the trub that gets transferred to the fermenter (I dump the lot in, everything thats in the jerry can).

If I want a big hop aroma I've found that I need to dry hop in secondary or end of primary.

AC


----------



## Kai

Have you tried adding the late hops to the jerry, claret? I started doing that because I didn't like the notion of flameout hops only being in contact with the wort for a couple minutes (the time it takes to rack).


----------



## Doc

I kegged another No Chill beer last night.
The latest batch of Aidans Irish Red. Observations going into the keg were, the beer is a lot clearer and the beer attenuated an extra 4 points. Now it took me six or so brews to perfect the recipe, which I now brew over and over and I always get consistent results. This in the first NC version, so that should be the only new variable. As for the taste... superb. One of the best AIR's I've done.
I'm an convert.

Doc


----------



## warrenlw63

Kai said:


> Have you tried adding the late hops to the jerry, claret? I started doing that because I didn't like the notion of flameout hops only being in contact with the wort for a couple minutes (the time it takes to rack).



The answer is simple... See pic. B) 

{Note does not work for pellets}







Warren -


----------



## Kai

Sexy, warren. However my way is simpler and I'm a simple man so it works for me.


----------



## Aussie Claret

Kai,
Yes I have in the past, but because I was leaving the aroma hops at 90-100c for an extended time (whilst the jerry can cooled), I found that the bitterness increased. My percpetion anyway. One way around this would be to chill to about 60c (as ross does).

Warren from your photo, are you running hot wort through that pot (with hops) into a jerry can? If so aren't you worried about HSA? Just looks like you'd get alot of splashing. 
I've thought about introducing a homemade hop back of some description but I'd want it air tight and purged first.

Thoughts?
Cheers
AC


----------



## johnno

Doc said:


> the beer is a lot clearer and the beer attenuated an extra 4 points.
> Doc




My beers are about as clear/cloudy as they were before, but I have noticed that I am also getting better attenuation. I just thought it was the water this side of town but am not so sure now as I have been doing the nochill since shifting out here.

cheers
johnno


----------



## warrenlw63

Aussie Claret said:


> Kai,
> Yes I have in the past, but because I was leaving the aroma hops at 90-100c for an extended time (whilst the jerry can cooled), I found that the bitterness increased. My percpetion anyway. One way around this would be to chill to about 60c (as ross does).
> 
> Warren from your photo, are you running hot wort through that pot (with hops) into a jerry can? If so aren't you worried about HSA? Just looks like you'd get alot of splashing.
> I've thought about introducing a homemade hop back of some description but I'd want it air tight and purged first.
> 
> Thoughts?
> Cheers
> AC



AC

Yep, I put in a bed of hops and the wort runs onto them. In reality you get bugger all splashing. The hops swell very quickly and the copper tube more or less gets immersed in them. No HSA problems thus far. IMO it's only an issue if you plan to store your beer for a long time. Mine rarely last more than a couple of months. :lol: 

To me it just makes sense and has thus far worked well for no chill aroma additions. Gives pleasing aroma and excellent hop flavour. Making your hopback environment O2 free while not impossible sounds a bit "over-engineered".

I've tried tossing my aroma additions in the cube and got pretty much frustrated with the results.

Warren -


----------



## Bobby

to the people who are getting better attenuation - are you including the break material or are you leaving it out?


----------



## johnno

Bobby said:


> to the people who are getting better attenuation - are you including the break material or are you leaving it out?




I Include that.

cheers
johnno


----------



## Kai

Aussie Claret said:


> Kai,
> Yes I have in the past, but because I was leaving the aroma hops at 90-100c for an extended time (whilst the jerry can cooled), I found that the bitterness increased. My percpetion anyway. One way around this would be to chill to about 60c (as ross does).




I don't like the idea of chilling it to 60C first, firstly because it's more work and secondly because it removes a lot of the 'hot fill' advantage of no-chilling.

I calculate my cube hopping as 5 minute additions, not that I have any real scientific basis for it.


----------



## Duff

Doc said:


> I'm an convert.
> 
> Doc



:beerbang: 

Wait until you see your water bill drop. Mine is now a third of what it was this time last year.


----------



## warrenlw63

Bobby said:


> to the people who are getting better attenuation - are you including the break material or are you leaving it out?



Hate to harp on the hopback. Another useful purpose for it. Bed of hops filters a lot of the gunk. My cubes seem to have less spooge in them as a consequence.

Warren -


----------



## Duff

Bobby said:


> to the people who are getting better attenuation - are you including the break material or are you leaving it out?



All mine goes in. I open it up, then quickly dump upside down into the fermenter to let it splash everywhere. Aerates it well and leaves a nice thick layer of foam.

Cheers.


----------



## Doc

Bobby said:


> to the people who are getting better attenuation - are you including the break material or are you leaving it out?



Yep. I just dump everything in with a big splash around as Duff does.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Bobby

Perhaps the inclusion of the break is helping along the attentuation. 

I do as you do duff, however I never take a FG reading so cant say whether attenuation has improved.


----------



## Aussie Claret

Good idea Warren was thinking about using my hop sock to filter when transferring from jerry to fermenter.
AC


----------



## Aussie Claret

Sorry me again, I also dump everything in, does anyone have clarity issues with the dump and bump philsophy.
AC


----------



## DJR

I leave most of the settled trub in the cube, haven't had a problem with attenuation. Next couple of NC's will be in the ESB style cubes which means no luxury of having a tap - they will just be dumped in. Only beer i had clarity issues with was one with lots of MO, but from what i hear MO has a built-in chill haze direct from the factory, that can't be removed anyway.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

When people are leaving in the break material in the cube / fermenter are they still using a kettle finning at say 5 mins before flame out or at some other point in the process or not at all?

Cheers


----------



## DJR

I add whirlfloc at 5 mins - once i didn't and there was HEAPS more break in the cube, i add it in at 5-10 mins and there is a nice solid trub cone in the kettle. Then again i have 150 whirlfloc tabs to use up, so even hefeweizens would get them


----------



## Doc

Whirlflock and yeast nutrient at 10 mins for me. I don't get a lot of break material into the cube unless I'm right at the edge of enough wort to fill the cube. I use a bazooka screen on the kettle too, so have to transfer slowly otherwise it will clog.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Cortez The Killer

A question about kettle finnings

Say that break material is collected from the kettle and goes into the cude / fermenter - will it still drop out of suspension in the cube / fermenter or does it go back into suspension and result in a cloudy beer?

Cheers


----------



## Bobby

yes it drops out. when i no chill almost all of the wort from the kettle goes into the cube. i have had no clarity issues.
i even brewed a pils like this without using any whirfloc and it was crystal clear after a month of CCing.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Cool

My first AG was pretty cloudy - I didn't use any finning in the kettle

So I'll contact Ross to get some Koppafloc 

Chuck it in at the right time and hopefully any hot break that I pick up from the kettle will drop out in the cube

Basically i don't wanna redesign my pick up tube (it picks up all but about a litre in the kettle) and wanted to know that the finning's effectiveness doesn't stop after the wort leaves the kettle






it's hard to see here but the base is bashed in 

cheers


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Apologies if this seems like a silly question.

I'm no-chilling into 20litre Willow jerries which seem to hold closer to 24litres. I'm aiming for 23litre batches, which gives me either one litre of air I get to squeeeeeze out or an extra litre of wort which may get discarded with the break material and hops I failed to keep out.

Or... I could use that extra bit for a starter. In this way, the medium for the starter is well-matched to the wort the starter is introduced to, so there is one less vector for Yeast Shock. If I am sanitary enough, I can heave the wort into the fermenter and seal for the time it takes the starter to... well... start.

Does this seem sensible? Or is it common practice?

Cheers.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Sounds like a go-er!

Cheers


----------



## Stuster

I don't see much advantage in doing that. The yeast should grow pretty much as fast in your full 23L as in your starter. Meanwhile, however sanitary you try to be, there's no guarantee something isn't growing in your wort. :unsure: 

If you want to use that 1L why not just bottle it in a plastic coke/juice bottle and put it in the freezer. Then you can pull it out a couple of days before you want to brew, defrost, boil it for 10 minutes, cool, and use that for your starter. Then your starter gets a couple of days to get going and you can pitch it straight away. :super:


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Stuster said:


> I don't see much advantage in doing that. The yeast should grow pretty much as fast in your full 23L as in your starter. Meanwhile, however sanitary you try to be, there's no guarantee something isn't growing in your wort. :unsure:
> 
> If you want to use that 1L why not just bottle it in a plastic coke/juice bottle and put it in the freezer. Then you can pull it out a couple of days before you want to brew, defrost, boil it for 10 minutes, cool, and use that for your starter. Then your starter gets a couple of days to get going and you can pitch it straight away. :super:



Thanks for the reply.

I am assuming that you are not advocating not using a starter (pardon the double negative - I couldn't squeeze a third in there).  

I've just finished re-reading the Maltose Falcons' yeast article linked to from somewhere here and it said to me that using starter material close to the final brew (assuming the SG is not too high) would be a good idea and that getting as much yeast growth outside of my wort as I can would reduce the number of vectors for introducing 'unwanted flavours'.

I guess I could go from kettle to coke bottle and freeze (and squeeze the jerry) - this doesn't cause me any grief. My intent was to be as supportive of my yeasties as possible by not providing them with too many surprises. A few more days in the no-chill jerry probably doesn't make a difference one way or another once the wort is in there.


----------



## Stuster

No, you are not wrong about the non-disagreement about starters.  

Or rather, starters are good. Squeezing the cube is fine. Crozdog's method made it easier for me. Just prop the cube against a step and push gently on the upper face (if that makes sense :unsure: ). Less chance of burning yourself that way I think.

If you want to get the brew going ASAP just leave out 1L in the coke bottle. Cool it some water in the sink. As soon as it's cool, pitch the yeast and your starter should be ready by the time your jerry can is cool.

In fact, from most other reading, 1040 wort or less is best. So you could dilute the 1L starter with some cooled, pre-boiled water. That would also reduce the temp of that wort even quicker.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

It's not so much a matter of getting things going ASAP. I brew quicker than I can ferment, so the jerry farm forms a buffer between kettle and fridge - one jerry I have in storage has been there for around three weeks. It's primarily about yeast performance.

I'm definitely a squeezer. With wort containers, I tend to use my knee and a wall. I haven't felt the need for knee-pads yet. The traditional jerry-can shape is easier to squeeze than a strict cube.


----------



## Stuster

I have the same problem as you. Too much brewing, not enough fermenting.  

In that case, I'd definitely recommend doing a starter with wort you save separately. Then pitch into the main wort when the yeast are ready. To me this is a big advantage of the no-chill method.

Alternatively, you can use slurry from previous batches. Again, since you can pitch when you want, it becomes easy to coordinate this. Save a jar of slurry. Clean out the fermenter. Sanitise. Pour in wort. Pitch yeast. Fermenter turn around of a few minutes. :super: 

BTW, a few weeks or even months should be fine in the cube. After all, the commercial wort kits are not always fresh.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Stuster said:


> To me this is a big advantage of the no-chill method.



Absolutely! The flexibility of the system is magic - and helps maintain Maximum Fermenter Utilisation.  



Stuster said:


> After all, the commercial wort kits are not always fresh.



This is why I have only ever bought (Artisanale) Fresh Wort Kits. There is an implicit guarantee in the name... :blink:


----------



## domonsura

warrenlw63 said:


> Ahem!!
> 
> We must have been the only ones who didn't read the little 5pt caveat on the side of the Weyermann Pils malt bag NM.
> 
> It says (my translation may be rusty). Ein it is verboden iz das Helmet Heads uzen the no chiller method for ein Pilsner malz ein swchweinbratenpigballs. :lol:
> Warren -



:lol: 
Laughing too hard to think of anything genuinely clever to say....swchweinbratenpigballs :lol: :lol:


edit: Have now realised that the post I've quoted is old history......oops


----------



## crozdog

Stuster said:


> Crozdog's method made it easier for me.




Cool. We now have not only the Ross method of forced carbonation but now the Crozdog method cube squeezing!

I'm famous at last!! :excl: B) :beerbang: 

Thanks Stu LOL.


----------



## Kai

Stuster said:


> I don't see much advantage in doing that. The yeast should grow pretty much as fast in your full 23L as in your starter. Meanwhile, however sanitary you try to be, there's no guarantee something isn't growing in your wort. :unsure:
> 
> If you want to use that 1L why not just bottle it in a plastic coke/juice bottle and put it in the freezer. Then you can pull it out a couple of days before you want to brew, defrost, boil it for 10 minutes, cool, and use that for your starter. Then your starter gets a couple of days to get going and you can pitch it straight away. :super:



I use the last wort out of my kettle to fire up my pre-existing starter. Once I have collected all my wort into the jerry, I tip the dregs from the kettle into a flagon. I chill this rapidly and allow it to settle, then tip a litre or so of that wort onto a pre-prepared starter of around 3-400mL (usually made from DME). By the time the main wort is cooled to pitching temp that stepped startrer is usually going great guns.


----------



## Ross

DJR said:


> Only beer i had clarity issues with was one with lots of MO, but from what i hear MO has a built-in chill haze direct from the factory, that can't be removed anyway.



Polyclar removes it easily.

cheers Ross


----------



## Guest Lurker

Ross said:


> Polyclar removes it easily.
> 
> cheers Ross



Whereas improving your brewing techniques prevents it happening in the first place!


----------



## Ross

Guest Lurker said:


> Whereas improving your brewing techniques prevents it happening in the first place!



What improvements do you suggest? I've tried protien rests & always do a hard rolling boil for 90 mins, with Koppafloc added at 5 mins - Maybe you could enlighten  

cheers Ross


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

My sample space is huge - five AG brews.

I've always used Irish Moss, but sometimes get clear, sometimes don't get clear. The only thing I've been able to pin it down to is the presence of Pilsener malt in the grist. When present, I get cloud. When absent, I do not.

I would happily accept that I have done something else different between these brews (in fact, I would welcome it), but for me right now, the *cough* 'evidence' is stacking up against JWM Pilsener.

I'd be grateful of a technique-oriented explanation as I am slowly wending towards a lager beer.


----------



## Darren

Ross said:


> What improvements do you suggest? I've tried protien rests & always do a hard rolling boil for 90 mins, with Koppafloc added at 5 mins - Maybe you could enlighten
> 
> cheers Ross




Ross,

Water composition and mash pH do make differences to clarity but chilling of an ale made with English malts is just wrong  

Polyclar removes chill haze. If you have chill haze you are serving your English ale too cold.  

cheers

Darren


----------



## Ross

Darren said:


> Ross,
> 
> Water composition and mash pH do make differences to clarity but chilling of an ale made with English malts is just wrong
> 
> Polyclar removes chill haze. If you have chill haze you are serving your English ale too cold.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Couldn't agree more, but i use MO in more than English bitters. I use tank water with a perfect PH for brewing light beers & it's only the MO that throws a chill haze. So still hoping GL will enlighten us....

cheers Ross


----------



## Batz

I had a sack of malt once,it was either Maltcraft or JW as that was all I could get.
Anyway it made very cloudy beers,taste was ok but there was no way I could make a clear beer with it,I don't know why.
I have used the same malt before and after without these results.

Batz


Ross
Really now you need GL to tell you how to brew a good beer ....tis tis :lol: :lol:


----------



## Ross

Batz said:


> Really now you need GL to tell you how to brew a good beer ....tis tis :lol: :lol:



Well, GL told me to improve my brewing technique, & I'm always keen to learn  ...

cheers Ross


----------



## tangent

Got this lovely e-mail today.
Could dismiss it, but it does make me nervous.

_Cancer update -- Johns Hopkins -- Cancer News from Johns Hopkins
1. No plastic containers in micro.
2. No water bottles in freezer.
3. No plastic wrap in microwave.

Johns Hopkins has recently sent this out in its newsletters. This information is being circulated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center as well.!
Dioxin chemicals causes cancer, especially breast cancer.
Dioxins are highly poisonous to the cells of our bodies. Don't freeze your plastic bottles with water in them as this releases dioxins from the plastic.

Recently, Dr. Edward Fujimoto, Wellness Program Manager at Castle Hospital , was on a TV program to explain this health hazard. He talked about dioxins and how bad they are for us.

He said that we should not be heating our food in the microwave using plastic containers. This especially applies to foods that contain fat. He said that the combination of fat, high heat, and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body.
Instead, he recommends using glass, such as Corning Ware, Pyrex or ceramic containers for heating food. You get the same results, only without the dioxin. So such things as TV dinners, instant ramen and soups, etc., should be removed from the container and heated in something else. Paper isn't bad but you don't know what is in the paper. It's just safer to use tempered glass, Corning Ware, etc.

He reminded us that a while ago some of the fast food restaurants moved away from the foam containers to paper. The dioxin problem is one of the reasons.

Also, he pointed out that plastic wrap, such as Saran, is just as dangerous when placed over foods to be cooked in the microwave. As the food is nuked, the high heat causes poisonous toxins to actually melt out of the plastic wrap and drip into the food.

Cover food with a paper towel instead._


----------



## Stoodoo

tangent said:


> Got this lovely e-mail today.
> Could dismiss it, but it does make me nervous.
> 
> _Cancer update -- Johns Hopkins -- Cancer News from Johns Hopkins
> 1. No plastic containers in micro.
> 2. No water bottles in freezer.
> 3. No plastic wrap in microwave........................................He said that the combination of fat, high heat, and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body.
> Instead, he recommends using glass, such as Corning Ware, Pyrex or ceramic containers for heating food. You get the same results, only without the dioxin..............................................._



With all of my no chill beers I have let them cool down overnight in the kettle before transfering the wort to my plastic fermentor, so no "known" problem with that. However, I have been thinking for some time about the use of my plastic "food grade" "KEEP COOL" mash tun. Yes it may be food grade, but it was designed to keep the liquid cold. It worries me that it may well be leaching some sort of toxins etc into the very hot mash.  

Cheers


----------



## Batz

tangent said:


> Got this lovely e-mail today.
> Could dismiss it, but it does make me nervous.
> 
> _Cancer update -- Johns Hopkins -- Cancer News from Johns Hopkins
> 1. No plastic containers in micro.
> 2. No water bottles in freezer.
> 3. No plastic wrap in microwave.
> 
> Johns Hopkins has recently sent this out in its newsletters. This information is being circulated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center as well.!
> Dioxin chemicals causes cancer, especially breast cancer.
> Dioxins are highly poisonous to the cells of our bodies. Don't freeze your plastic bottles with water in them as this releases dioxins from the plastic.
> 
> Recently, Dr. Edward Fujimoto, Wellness Program Manager at Castle Hospital , was on a TV program to explain this health hazard. He talked about dioxins and how bad they are for us.
> 
> He said that we should not be heating our food in the microwave using plastic containers. This especially applies to foods that contain fat. He said that the combination of fat, high heat, and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body.
> Instead, he recommends using glass, such as Corning Ware, Pyrex or ceramic containers for heating food. You get the same results, only without the dioxin. So such things as TV dinners, instant ramen and soups, etc., should be removed from the container and heated in something else. Paper isn't bad but you don't know what is in the paper. It's just safer to use tempered glass, Corning Ware, etc.
> 
> He reminded us that a while ago some of the fast food restaurants moved away from the foam containers to paper. The dioxin problem is one of the reasons.
> 
> Also, he pointed out that plastic wrap, such as Saran, is just as dangerous when placed over foods to be cooked in the microwave. As the food is nuked, the high heat causes poisonous toxins to actually melt out of the plastic wrap and drip into the food.
> 
> Cover food with a paper towel instead._




Your welcome in Kin Kin or the Batcave anytime tangent  

Batz


----------



## tangent

Thanks Batz 

I like the convenience of no chill and have done it once, and my jerry literally melted and didn't go back into shape. 
Now i still use my immersion chiller down to ~40C with 50L of tap water (which gets collected and used for wash down and the pot plants) and rack with hose into a sanitised fermenter.
I wait overnight after it's been sitting on a concrete floor,
aerate/pour into another fermenter and pitch at 18-20C.


----------



## Guest Lurker

Ross said:


> What improvements do you suggest? I've tried protien rests & always do a hard rolling boil for 90 mins, with Koppafloc added at 5 mins - Maybe you could enlighten
> 
> cheers Ross



Sorry Ross, missed this. Mind you I have posted this plenty of times before in more on topic threads. 

I also had a chill haze problem when the MO supply changed in Australia and it certainly is prone to it. I did a bunch of things all at once.
1) I chase every slight doughball and make sure the mash is completely wet at dough in
2) I boil so hard that putting your head over the kettle to peep in is dangerous because I get molten geysers on the top and boil for 80 mins
3) I doubled my kettle fining addition

I cant tell you which one fixed it, but I can brew with MO, no filtering, no polyclar, and no chill haze. If those hadnt fixed it I would have kept trying other things like protein rests, until I found a way that I could brew with my particular system, and remove that problem, just cos I'd rather improve the brewing than attack the symptom.

If you already do those things, I wonder if kettle geometry and boil circulation might make a difference? My feeling is that increasing the vigour of boil was probably the biggest impact.


----------



## Doc

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Apologies if this seems like a silly question.
> 
> I'm no-chilling into 20litre Willow jerries which seem to hold closer to 24litres. I'm aiming for 23litre batches, which gives me either one litre of air I get to squeeeeeze out or an extra litre of wort which may get discarded with the break material and hops I failed to keep out.
> 
> Or... I could use that extra bit for a starter. In this way, the medium for the starter is well-matched to the wort the starter is introduced to, so there is one less vector for Yeast Shock. If I am sanitary enough, I can heave the wort into the fermenter and seal for the time it takes the starter to... well... start.
> 
> Does this seem sensible? Or is it common practice?
> 
> Cheers.



I do just that. Put 600ml of wort in a sterlised coke bottle, keep in the fridge for a day to drop the break material out (as it is the last bit of wort from the kettle; get it out of the frigde to bring up to room temp to make a starter for the No Chill brew. Saves buying DME for starters too.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Gulf Brewery

tangent said:


> Got this lovely e-mail today.
> Could dismiss it, but it does make me nervous.
> 
> _Cancer update -- Johns Hopkins -- Cancer News from Johns Hopkins
> 1. No plastic containers in micro.
> 2. No water bottles in freezer.
> 3. No plastic wrap in microwave._


_

This has been around for a while and appears to be badly misquoted / semi myth. A google turns up lots of links including this one.

Cheers
Pedro_


----------



## tangent

this MO haze discussion is too good to ignore/miss for the no-chillers.
Can we split this into another thread.
GL raises some great points.
I have some corresponding stuff to add.

Delete this after eh?


----------



## Uncle Fester

tangent said:


> Dioxin chemicals causes cancer, especially breast cancer.



May be a way to get rid of my man-boobies? <_< 


Festa


----------



## Ross

Guest Lurker said:


> Sorry Ross, missed this. Mind you I have posted this plenty of times before in more on topic threads.
> 
> I also had a chill haze problem when the MO supply changed in Australia and it certainly is prone to it. I did a bunch of things all at once.
> 1) I chase every slight doughball and make sure the mash is completely wet at dough in
> 2) I boil so hard that putting your head over the kettle to peep in is dangerous because I get molten geysers on the top and boil for 80 mins
> 3) I doubled my kettle fining addition
> 
> I cant tell you which one fixed it, but I can brew with MO, no filtering, no polyclar, and no chill haze. If those hadnt fixed it I would have kept trying other things like protein rests, until I found a way that I could brew with my particular system, and remove that problem, just cos I'd rather improve the brewing than attack the symptom.
> 
> If you already do those things, I wonder if kettle geometry and boil circulation might make a difference? My feeling is that increasing the vigour of boil was probably the biggest impact.



Thanks for the reply  - But honestly other than doubling the kettle fining which I may or may not have done at the time, the others are definately covered. With regards to good brewing practices I personally don't see much difference to adding a post boil fining agent like Polyclar to using one in the boil like whirfloc or whatever.
MO certainly varies dramatically from sack to sack - Fortunately never had a terrible one again like the 1st Bairds sack we got from the local HBS. There were at least 3 different brewers I know who all ended up with beers as murky as river water - possibly a fault with that sack, who knows...


Cheers Ross


----------



## Kai

Guest Lurker said:


> Sorry Ross, missed this. Mind you I have posted this plenty of times before in more on topic threads.
> 
> I also had a chill haze problem when the MO supply changed in Australia and it certainly is prone to it. I did a bunch of things all at once.
> 1) I chase every slight doughball and make sure the mash is completely wet at dough in
> 2) I boil so hard that putting your head over the kettle to peep in is dangerous because I get molten geysers on the top and boil for 80 mins
> 3) I doubled my kettle fining addition



Just out of curiosity, do you hydrate your kettle finings before adding to the kettle?


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Kai said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you hydrate your kettle finings before adding to the kettle?



When I used the Brewcraft Irish Moss, which is actual moss, I would just throw them into the kettle and it seemed to work fine. I now use a tablet-form preparation (from G&G). It needs to be broken up and watered before adding, else you get little chunks of tablet. I haven't tried adding it earlier to see if that does it. I don't know what, but I figure there is a reason to not add it earlier.


----------



## devo

Well this thread has departed somewhat from it's original subject heading? :huh: 


btw i've always used Irish moss in the boil and never had any issues with chill haze. B)


----------



## Fents

Im with Spills on this one. I almost always get chill haze. I use whirfloc tab at 10mins.

Also when i brew with JW Pils its always cloudy  Dont know what im doing wrong.


----------



## tangent

> Well this thread has departed somewhat from it's original subject heading?


 that's what i said.  

I've found recirculating the wort more before letting any into the kettle along with a really strong 90min boil has really made a lot of difference. I haven't had a bag of MO in ages though to see if it'll make any difference with that.


----------



## Hashie

Is it ok to no-chill in the kettle and then transfer to the fermenter in the morning?

Sorry if it's been asked already, but 50 pages is a bit of reading to wade through to find an answer.

What I was thinking, was just leaving the hot wort in the kettle, covered and with the hop sock taken out after the boil.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

tangent said:


> Got this lovely e-mail today.
> Could dismiss it, but it does make me nervous.
> 
> _Cancer update -- Johns Hopkins -- Cancer News from Johns Hopkins
> 1. No plastic containers in micro.
> 2. No water bottles in freezer.
> 3. No plastic wrap in microwave.
> _



This is an urban legend (been doing the rounds for a while) - Snopes - Plastic

Freeze away!!

DK


----------



## Hogan

Hashie said:


> Is it ok to no-chill in the kettle and then transfer to the fermenter in the morning?




Yes Hashie it's OK. You will also find that unless it is really cold - the wort temp will be just right for rehyrdating dry yeast and then pitching. 


Cheers, Hoges.


----------



## therook

I have just done my 2nd AG and both times used the NoChill method....I have noticed after drinking the hydro sample that the Hop bitterness is there but taste and aroma isn't.....is this due to the hops being in the Hot wort for a prolong period?

if so how can this be overcome without the use of a chiller or am i doing something wrong

Rook

P.S I hope this hasn't been answered earlier, but 50 odd pages is to much to read. :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63

Nudge-Nudge, Wink-Wink  

Warren -


----------



## crozdog

davekate said:


> This is an urban legend (been doing the rounds for a while) - Snopes - Plastic
> 
> Freeze away!!
> 
> DK


DK,
that "article" may be false, but have a read of a book called The Feminization of Nature by Deborah Cadbury. It is a thought provoking read about the impact of "safe" chemicles on our environment.

The following is a review from Amazon UK
_It is based on an 'Emmy' award winning BBC TV programme. It is very readable and clearly written. Scientists around the world are finding alarming changes in human reproduction and health. There is strong evidence that sperm counts have fallen dramatically. Testicular, prostate, and breast cancer are on the rise. Different animal species are even showing signs of 'feminisation' or 'changing sex,' the males actually producing eggs like females. According to scientific evidence compiled worldwide, the prime suspect in these worrying findings is the increased exposure to chemicals that can mimic the female hormone estrogen and other hormones. Indeed, man-made chemicals like DDT, PCB and other hormone disrupters have become soaked into our environment from their use in countless modern products, from plastics to pesticides. Only now is the full impact of their extensive use coming to light. Believed responsible for genital abnormalities and cancers across a wide range of species, these hormone disrupting chemicals may pose a threat not only to our human potential, but to our very survival. Through extensive interviews with fertility experts and scientists world wide as well as members of the chemical industry, Deborah Cadbury provides a balanced, cogent, compelling argument that propels us toward a disturbing conclusion. ...Cadbury's well researched, even handed analysis of these findings is a startling wake-up call to the far reaching consequences of widespread environmental pollution._

Despite that I happily no chill & use glad wrap in the microwave.


----------



## devo

I guess you could always run your no chilled wort into glass carboys if your still worried about it.


----------



## Ross

Hashie said:


> Is it ok to no-chill in the kettle and then transfer to the fermenter in the morning?
> 
> Sorry if it's been asked already, but 50 pages is a bit of reading to wade through to find an answer.
> 
> What I was thinking, was just leaving the hot wort in the kettle, covered and with the hop sock taken out after the boil.



Yes you can, but very risky, unless you are happy that you can keep free of any airbourne nasties....

cheers Ross


----------



## NRB

devo said:


> I guess you could always run your no chilled wort into glass carboys if your still worried about it.



Are glass carboys Pyrex? I would be concerned about the thermal shock of boiling liquid into cold glassware; shattered/fractured glass would be more than likely if not Pyrex.



Hashie said:


> Is it ok to no-chill in the kettle and then transfer to the fermenter in the morning?
> 
> Sorry if it's been asked already, but 50 pages is a bit of reading to wade through to find an answer.
> 
> What I was thinking, was just leaving the hot wort in the kettle, covered and with the hop sock taken out after the boil.



If you could seal your kettle with a rubber "washer" under the lid, as the wort cools it will create a vacuum and seal just as if it were in a cube.

[edit = changed "work" to "wort", dunno what I was typing!]


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

NRB said:


> Are glass carboys Pyrex? I would be concerned about the thermal shock of boiling liquid into cold glassware; shattered/fractured glass would be more than likely if not Pyrex.
> If you could seal your kettle with a rubber "washer" under the lid, as the work cools it will create a vacuum and seal just as if it were in a cube.



... or go a bit nuts with some cling film, perhaps?


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Currently have two brews in cubes after the weekend. 

They were filled to a point where there was almost no headspace at all and since cooling there is now NO air in them at all, not a single little bubble...even the handles are 100% full of wort :blink: 

*Where would the air go? Has it been absorbed into the wort?* :huh: 

I've previously used "20 litre" plastic jerry cans from Bunnings, but this time reduced the amount of sparge water (for a smaller boil volume) and used ND wort kit cubes which were shaped better for this purpose, hence being able to get a smaller headspace than before (smaller handle, flat top, position of lid, only one lid, etc). 

Still, no air at all has got me worried...there is an unopened ND Norwest Pale Ale wort cube sitting not 2 metres away from me and it's got quite a bit (maybe half a litre) of air/headspace in it  

PZ.


----------



## browndog

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Currently have two brews in cubes after the weekend.
> 
> They were filled to a point where there was almost no headspace at all and since cooling there is now NO air in them at all, not a single little bubble...even the handles are 100% full of wort :blink:
> 
> *Where would the air go? Has it been absorbed into the wort?* :huh:
> 
> I've previously used "20 litre" plastic jerry cans from Bunnings, but this time reduced the amount of sparge water (for a smaller boil volume) and used ND wort kit cubes which were shaped better for this purpose, hence being able to get a smaller headspace than before (smaller handle, flat top, position of lid, only one lid, etc).
> 
> Still, no air at all has got me worried...there is an unopened ND Norwest Pale Ale wort cube sitting not 2 metres away from me and it's got quite a bit (maybe half a litre) of air/headspace in it
> 
> PZ.



Where would the air go? The only answer I can see to this is that there was no air in the cube to begin with. There was however, *steam*. Proper steam is water in gaseous form. When this steam cooled and condensed back into liquid the void was removed and liquid filled the entire container. Hopefully some of the physics gurus can confirm or refute this theory.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## mobrien

Browndog, you have it right I believe but there is one extra thing. Let me explain.

There is a large amount of steam that displaces the air, depending how close to boiling the wort is. If you don't believe this, here is neat demonstration I do for my year 12 chem students.

Take a coke can (or other type of beverage - its just the can we are after). Rinse it out and put about a tablespoon of water in it. Now put it on a hotplate until the water is boiling and steam is coming out the top.

Whilst you are waiting for this, get an ice cream container and half fill it with water and ice.

Now (and you have to do this quickly) - take the can off the hotplate with some tongs, INVERT it, and all at once plunge it into the ice mixture.

You will see what how much "air" you loose as the steam condenses back into water.

Lots of fun... but...

There will still be some air in the can - and I suspect there would also be still some in the cube.

Thats where effect number two comes in. Solubility of gas DECREASES with increasing temperature. Or, conversely, more gas will dissolve into a liquid as the temperature decreases. 

So, any remaining air in the cube (assuming it is airtight) could be being dissolved into the wort as the temperature decreases. We all know how much CO2 can dissolve into the fermented wort, so 10-100mL of air or so isn't a stretch.

So in summary - I think its a combination of both - the steam turning back into water and hence reducing in volume (by a heck of a lot) and any left over air dissolving into the wort as the temp decreases.

Just my explanation I have been wrong before.

M


----------



## Adamt

Just a question to ponder on:

How much air/Oxygen can be present in wort before oxidation spoilage occurs?

Unless youre brewing in an oxygen free environment, its inevitable at some stage in the mashing/boiling process that oxygen will dissolve in the wort.



Regards to FLB's scenario:

Steam condensing/air dissolving will lower the pressure in the container. My money is on the fact that the container has sucked in to accomodate the lower volume of liquid. Once you crack the lid, the container will push out and create an airspace similar to that when you filled it.


----------



## crozdog

devo said:


> I guess you could always run your no chilled wort into glass carboys if your still worried about it.



I'd like to see someone trying to squeeze in the sides of a carboy to expel the additional air. h34r: B)


----------



## KillerRx4

Adamt said:


> Just a question to ponder on:
> 
> How much air/Oxygen can be present in wort before oxidation spoilage occurs?
> 
> Unless youre brewing in an oxygen free environment, its inevitable at some stage in the mashing/boiling process that oxygen will dissolve in the wort.



This is something Im having trouble understanding. Mainly re HSA.

Especially since I purposely oxygenate before pitching yeast why is there supposedly issues with oxygenation in the mash/boil process?


----------



## Guest Lurker

KillerRx4 said:


> This is something Im having trouble understanding. Mainly re HSA.
> 
> Especially since I purposely oxygenate before pitching yeast why is there supposedly issues with oxygenation in the mash/boil process?



The H stands for hot.

The rate of chemical reactions can be strongly controlled by temperature. Hot wort plus oxygen = oxidation. Cold wort plus oxygen = oxygen dissolved in the wort, but not bound by chemical reactions.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Well, I got concerned and tipped over the cubes to check. 

The air was under the lidsnot in the handles, which are the highest point :blink:


----------



## jimmyjack

> The rate of chemical reactions can be strongly controlled by temperature. Hot wort plus oxygen = oxidation. Cold wort plus oxygen = oxygen dissolved in the wort, but not bound by chemical reactions.



Honestly I think HSA is not an issue when brewing small scale. I have lifted and poured hot wort from a height into a fermenter when I brewed a cap with Saaz B flowers that kept getting clogged in my drain tube and siphon. No off flavours that I could detect. The wierd thing was when I chilled it down to pitching temp and pitched the yeats the bubbler starting goin off within 10 minutes.  


Cheers, JJ


----------



## bennyc

Hello all,

I'm thinking about using a cube for a brew this weekend and just wanted to get the basics right (along with a few questions!)...

1. After flame-out, should I whirlpool the wort and let the trub etc settle out before pouring into the cube? Or just pour the whole lot in and let the trub settle out as the wort cools?

2. Should I pour the wort into the cube straight out of the kettle or through the tap of the kettle. i.e. is oxidation an issue with pouring hot wort into the cube? Is there any special method of doing this?

3. And then I squeeze, seal and let her cool, right?

Apologies if answers are buried in the posts, but I've had a look and there are a lot of posts :huh: 

Thanks 

Ben


----------



## Bobby

I don't bother whirlpooling - I just empty the kettle into the cube via hose.
Use a hose, don't just pour it straight from the tap into the cube.


----------



## DJR

I whirlpool - chuck in the whirlfloc at 10mins left till flameout, then after flameout give it a good stir and leave it for 10mins or so, then it has a nice trub cone that i leave out of the cube. A bit of trub still ends up in the wort though after it's cooled.


----------



## Stuster

Ditto to DJR's method. And as Bobby said, use some hose to avoid splashing the wort into the cube.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

1) I found that most of the break material dropped down to the bottom middle of my kettle (when i used 1/2 a tab of whirlfloc @ 10 mins) - even though I'd bashed in the base - I didn't whirlpool or anything, any break material you do pick up will drop out in the cube / fermenter anyway 

2) Oxidisation is an issue - you need a hose - normal garden fittings should fit onto your ball valve / tap

I usually tip the wort (after it's cooled) into the fermenter to aerate it

3) Give it a good sqeeze - but don't worry about getting every little bit out - just don't shake / move the cube much until it has cooled

Cheers


----------



## PostModern

HSA is only a big concern for long term shelf-life. As keen brewers, I guess most of us are keen beer drinkers, so by the time the effects of HSA are seen, the beer will be well gone.

I tip the cube upside down immediately after filling to let the hot goodness kill off any potential bugs in the lid and handle area. Once it's cooled, I store it right side up. Haven't had any ballooning cubes yet, even using Ray's dodgy oversized cube fitted with a snap-tap!!!


----------



## bennyc

Thanks all, that cleared things up nice and simply  

I'll get myself a cube and some tubing and be on my way!


----------



## Kingy

what sort of hoses are you guys using for transporting hot liquid. I found a jiggler syphon today but for some reason i think it would melt so didnt buy it. 

cheers kingy


----------



## oldbugman

dont mess round with the syphons if its hot, get a tap on the pot.


----------



## blackbock

Kingy said:


> what sort of hoses are you guys using for transporting hot liquid. I found a jiggler syphon today but for some reason i think it would melt so didnt buy it.
> 
> cheers kingy



Kingy the silicon hose Ross sells is just the stuff. It's thicker walled than the stuff from Grain and Grape (I have both). It still gets too hot to hold for very long when the wort travels through it, but man it's tough.


----------



## PostModern

Kingy said:


> what sort of hoses are you guys using for transporting hot liquid. I found a jiggler syphon today but for some reason i think it would melt so didnt buy it.
> 
> cheers kingy



I use stuff like this http://www.desihose.com/viewproduct.asp?pid=99 Don't know if it's that exact product, but it's pressure and temperature rated. I just push it over the barbs on my ball valve.


----------



## Duff

OldBugman said:


> dont mess round with the syphons if its hot, get a tap on the pot.



Bravo. Open up the tap and fill direct into the cube.


----------



## johnno

I too have been using this method for about the last 6 months.

Does anyone have any thoughts about constantly reusing the same cubes? Is it possible after multiple uses of a cube the plastic may start leeching? Or be affected in some other way from the heat.

cheers
johnno


----------



## eric8

Duff said:


> Bravo. Open up the tap and fill direct into the cube.



What have you got on the end of the ball valve?


----------



## Kingy

if i fitted a tap to an aluminium boiler is it just as simple as drilling and then fitting a steel tap with rubber washes. How high up the boiler should i fit the tap or how many litres should i try to leave in the boiler.



im really keen to no chill bcoz i waste enough water allready.

edit: delete silly question


----------



## Punter

> What have you got on the end of the ball valve?


I use a plastic hose connector on the end of mine, 
like these






then just shove one of these on to my clear hose





snap on, snap off,
easy as, and cheap to replace every so often.
Ive also seen people use brass ones the same, which I may upgrade to soon.
Would love to find something in SS.
The hose I use looks like this except its clear, not pink!




Found it in Bunnings, not the gardening section though.


----------



## eric8

Punter 
I have the brass hose connector, but can you just use some of Ross' silicon hose straight on to the connector?
Silicon hose (ID 1/2") , would that fit over the end?
Eric


----------



## Punter

Eric8, I'm not sure that it will. I think the end of the connector is a little bit larger 
than your hose. Maybe try putting it in hot water and squeezing it over the end.
If not that reinforced tubing is only $2 or $3 per metre, and slides straight into the
hose connector tail.


----------



## eric8

Punter I just measured it and I think you would be right, the connector is a bit larger. Of to the hardware store I go again. Lucky most of the stuff I get from there I can put down for tax purposes


----------



## Brewer_010

johnno said:


> I too have been using this method for about the last 6 months.
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts about constantly reusing the same cubes? Is it possible after multiple uses of a cube the plastic may start leeching? Or be affected in some other way from the heat.
> 
> cheers
> johnno



Yeah I have wondered about this too...but maybe the higher density plastic would be OK?? :blink: 
Is there an chemistry dude out there who can enlighten us on this? :unsure: 
I read something a while back about re-using the plastic water bottles (like Mt Franklin), by washing in hot water etc you begin to break down the compounds and various chemicals leach into the water you are drinking. Can't remember what they were now, but man they sounded real ugly. Gotta wonder with this sort of thing.
Cheers.


----------



## blackbock

eric8 said:


> Punter
> I have the brass hose connector, but can you just use some of Ross' silicon hose straight on to the connector?
> Silicon hose (ID 1/2") , would that fit over the end?
> Eric



eric, I use the fitting top LH corner





The '19mm' one screws directly onto my ball valves and although they get hot, they won't come off. The 1/2" silicon hose fits right into the end of them, if you're worried you can use hose clamps as well, but I used them the first couple of times without, just check them first to make sure they're screwed on properly.


----------



## PostModern

Brewer_010 said:


> Yeah I have wondered about this too...but maybe the higher density plastic would be OK?? :blink:
> Is there an chemistry dude out there who can enlighten us on this? :unsure:
> I read something a while back about re-using the plastic water bottles (like Mt Franklin), by washing in hot water etc you begin to break down the compounds and various chemicals leach into the water you are drinking. Can't remember what they were now, but man they sounded real ugly. Gotta wonder with this sort of thing.
> Cheers.



We went thru this at some length a few months ago. The upshot was: Food grade HDPE is stable at well over 100C and uses citric acid as a plasticiser. So unless your wort is about 130C when it hits the cube you'll be alright so long as you have food grade HDPE. Even if your wort is over 130, you'll just get a malformed cube and some food additive in your beer. To know if your cube has leached plasticisers, a quick test suggestion (not confirmed) was that if the cube returns to its normal shape after emptying, it has not gone plastic, so you've leached nothing into the wort. So far, my cubes (sourced from ESB, NNL and some direct from Cospak) are all looking the right shape, although the ones I've used a lot are changing colour a bit either from dark wort or repeated rinsing with iodine.

The key to this is to use FOOD GRADE cubes only, give effort 110% to your cube sanitation and pack the wort HOT.

As for hose barbs, I have these screwed into the SS ball valves on my kettle and HLT (and one spare for the MLT when I get around to it):


----------



## colinsk

Hi, I was asked about this on the air and have been curious about it for some time. First I had to express the botulism concern as it would be neglent not to. I looked into it. At a pH of 5.2 you are pretty safe. How ever if you are at a pH of 5.8 there is a slight risk. Now since we clean these cubes there should be no spores but I can't find any evidence that botulism is killed by hops. It is however inhibited by O2 but i don't think you want to add O2 at 100C! Then I started thinking of other problems. Most wort spoilage bacteria would be killed by the heat, Yeast would be killed by the heat. It makes me wonder how you end up with bloated cubes? Has anyone tasted beer from the bloated cubes? What does it taste like?

Colin Kaminski
Masterbrewer
Downtown Joes
Napa, CA - USA


----------



## Jye

Hey Colin,

Great to have your here :beerbang: I remember you talking about this on TBN and its good to see your following it up.

I have nothing to add except welcome to AHB.

Cheers
Jye


----------



## Cortez The Killer

It'd have to be some kind of wild yeast spore what wasn't exposed to the heat some how or may have been sucked in when the cube contracts due to work shrinkage - I'd imagine (just guessing though)

Interesting question none the less 

No infections here to date - though the most I've left a wort in a cube has been 3 days

Cheers


----------



## Thommo

Welcome Colin,

I've only had one cube swell up. When I loosened the lid to release the pressure, my kitchen was filled with one of the foulest smells I have ever had the mis-pleasure of smelling. No way in hell I was going to taste that.

I would be very surprised if someone was brave enough to ferment something like I had and then drink it. (Then again, maybe not that surprised...)

Cheers,
Thommo.


----------



## oldbugman

MY one swollen cube, which was from me taking a hydro reading and then putting the lid back on and leaving it for a few days. smelt TERRIBLE... of course it may have been the copious amount of late hop additions but I wasn't going to chance it. Cube and wort thrown out.


----------



## PostModern

Hi Colin,

I've never had a failure with this method, so I can't help with your question about bloated cubes. I simply try and avoid the possibility of that occurring. As I've said in this and numerous other threads, it's about method.

Botulism is a risk, but a remote one if strict cleanliness is observed and the wort run into cubes as soon as the whirlpool has settled. If there are botulism spores in the wort, chillers will encounter the risk as much as no-chillers. If botulism is in the cube, you're failing in sanitation.

I have added one step to my process, which is to recirculate some wort through the tap of the kettle during the vigorous boil. This will reduce the chance of spoilage organisms inside the tap from taking hold in the wort. Also, the cubes should be inverted to heat-sanitise the lid and hollow handle immediately after the cube is sealed. The base will be sufficiently heated as the cube fills, the top of the container may not be unless this simple process is observed.

You should also make a very strong point of ensuring your listeners use HDPE or other heat-stable food grade packaging for the cube, to ensure that the container's plasticisers are not leeched into the wort.

HTH.
PoMo.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I also run about 2 litres through the kettle tap and hose mid boil to (hopefully) flush anything through - I tip this wort back into the kettle (HSA beware!)

Also the hose stays attached to the kettle tap and the end runs back into the kettle for a good part of the boil. Needless to say the hose isn't clear anymore but a lovely green colour!

Cheers


----------



## Doc

Hey Colin,

Thanks for the great info you have provided on TBN especially on water. I've learned a lot from those episodes. 

I've been using this method exclusively all year. I've lost count of how many batches I have done. Typically each batch is a concentrated boil going into 2 x 15 litre HDPE containers (which I then dilute for fermentation).
I pitched the oldest cube I had on hand last night (brewed in Feb) and all was good.
I'm meticulous about making sure the cube(s) are clean before transferring wort into them, then removing all air to minimise any other potential risk of infection. I use PSR (Chrolinated Tri-Sodium Phosphate) for cleaning the cubes.
Touch wood; I haven't had any problems so far.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## PostModern

Doc said:


> I use PSR (Chrolinated Tri-Sodium Phosphate) for cleaning the cubes.



Ditto. PSR immediately after emptying and iodophor on brew day. I wouln't like to meet the bug that can live thru that.


----------



## Doc

PostModern said:


> Ditto. PSR immediately after emptying and iodophor on brew day. I wouln't like to meet the bug that can live thru that.



Mine get left in PSR (initially with 66decC+ hot water) for a minimum of 12 hours before being rinsed immediately prior to being filled with wort. If anything can survie the PSR, the heat of the transfer will then kill it.

Doc


----------



## PostModern

Yeah, that'll work. Darren put the fear of death into me before I started no chilling, so I figure two sanitising agents as well as heat should take care of just about everything. So far, so good 

I'm not sure what Ray Mills and Scotty do. After all, they brought this method to the homebrew setting, so they'd have hundreds of brews no-chilled. I don't think either of them have had an infection? Maybe they'd like to weigh in?


----------



## ///

PostModern said:


> I'm not sure what Ray Mills and Scotty do. After all, they brought this method to the homebrew setting, so they'd have hundreds of brews no-chilled. I don't think either of them have had an infection? Maybe they'd like to weigh in?



Only issue at home has been reusing a cube and chucking in the pool, cooling quickly then ending in troubled waters. Otherwise heat + time is an important factor as is good process. Simon calls it 'right first time', I call it 'clean the crapout of anything laying still and then when in doubt, chuck more caustic at it for good measure otherwise folks yell at you'...

Le Tour is on, so bon voyage and go Cadel!

Scotty


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Colin,

Thanks for following up over here. Welcome to AHB.

I've only no-chilled once, so I have bugger all experience. But mine certainly worked out well. Yeast pitched about 1.5 months after the beer was brewed.

I strongly suspect that if I had a swelled cube, I would simply put it straight down the drain without even bothering to check the taste. Whatever is causing the swelling just cant be good.

I'm still in the throws of deciding whether to swap to no-chill... mainly I suspect my rectitude is due to the fact that I have a fairly recently puchased IM chiller that cost a bloody bomb... and I have to self justify the expense.

welcome again to AHB

Thirsty


----------



## Lukes

It was barely 7 degrees last night in the brew shed so I guess I am chilling the wort !  

Check out the break in this C.A.P sample (dregs) that was left overnight on the bench.







Chilled no chill :blink: 

I have had a swelled cube some time ago and it was a sanitation issue and too much head room in the cube.

I have started doing what Doc mentioned and running the cubes at a higher gravity and adding water at fementation.

- Luke


----------



## warrenlw63

Lukes said:


> It was barely 7 degrees last night in the brew shed so I guess I am chilling the wort !
> 
> Check out the break in this C.A.P sample (dregs) that was left overnight on the bench.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chilled no chill :blink:
> 
> I have had a swelled cube some time ago and it was a sanitation issue and too much head room in the cube.
> 
> I have started doing what Doc mentioned and running the cubes at a higher gravity and adding water at fementation.
> 
> - Luke



:blink: Looks like one of those drink they give you at Vietnamese restaurants Luke. 

Did you use polenta? I've seen similar things when making CAPs in the bottom of glass carboys. These batches were done with a chiler at the time though.

Warren -


----------



## Lukes

Warren,
No polenta just rice and corn in a *almost burnt on the stove top cereal mash* and some flaked corn to get the % up.
Note to myself (next time buy more flaked corn and rice than you need).
This was the dregs of the cube when I was transferring to the fermenter.

Luke


----------



## Ross

I did up 4 fresh wort kits up for Noel when he was here, to brew on the beach in WA. One of these cubes (new) actually did swell up but he still added yeast & fermented it. Said it tasted a bit wierd, but he still drank it all, so guess it wasn't botulism :unsure: . There again I haven't heard from him in a while - YOU OK NOEL???

Cheers Ross


----------



## hoppydog

Has anyone tried no-chilling by racking hot wort straight into an HDPE food grade fermenter, and leaving it overnight to cool, before aerating and pitching yeast?

You would have to plug the airlock with something. I dont have any cubes, but I like the idea of no-chill, and I plan to try it with a fermenter.

Would the air gap be a problem? If so I could make sure to fill the HDPE fermenter, and run some of the wort into a second fermenter for the actual fermentation step.


----------



## DarkFaerytale

thats how i do it hoppy dog, straight from the kettle to the fermenter, leave overnight airate and pitch next day when it's at optimum temp. i don't have a chiller so it's the only way i can all grain brew

-Phill


----------



## Ross

hoppydog said:


> Has anyone tried no-chilling by racking hot wort straight into an HDPE food grade fermenter, and leaving it overnight to cool, before aerating and pitching yeast?
> 
> You would have to plug the airlock with something. I dont have any cubes, but I like the idea of no-chill, and I plan to try it with a fermenter.
> 
> Would the air gap be a problem? If so I could make sure to fill the HDPE fermenter, and run some of the wort into a second fermenter for the actual fermentation step.



Hi hoppydog,

Exactly the way i do it - just leave the airlock out, I put a plastic bottle cap over the grommet to stop anything crawling in.

cheers ross


----------



## PostModern

/// said:


> Only issue at home has been reusing a cube and chucking in the pool, cooling quickly then ending in troubled waters. Otherwise heat + time is an important factor as is good process.



Yeah, rapid chilling and not immediately pitching seems to be a recipe for disaster.



Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm still in the throws of deciding whether to swap to no-chill... mainly I suspect my rectitude is due to the fact that I have a fairly recently puchased IM chiller that cost a bloody bomb... and I have to self justify the expense.



No reason you can't do both. Would be great for double brew days with only one free fermenter. No-chill the first into a cube then do a regular chiller batch into a fermenter.



Lukes said:


> Check out the break in this C.A.P sample (dregs) that was left overnight on the bench.
> 
> Chilled no chill :blink:



Cold break still forms when chilling no-chill.



hoppydog said:


> Has anyone tried no-chilling by racking hot wort straight into an HDPE food grade fermenter, and leaving it overnight to cool, before aerating and pitching yeast?



Yeah. I did this when I brewed at a mate's place once before I got my stock of cubes. The beer turned out great (pKoelsch).


----------



## barneyhanway

I'd like to welcome Colin too, love your spots on the BN - very informative, THANKYOU!

Hoppydog, I go from kettle to fermenter overnight, then pitch. No issues so far. I fill the airlock with cool boiled water, some inevitably gets sucks back in as a function of the cooling wort. Hasn't been an infection issue for me but there is a risk, you should decide whether or not that risk is acceptable to you.

As far as I've been able to tell it does get around the concern of botulism, as the toxin can't survive in an aerobic environment, Colin you might be able to lend some expertise there?


----------



## Adamt

hoppydog said:


> Has anyone tried no-chilling by racking hot wort straight into an HDPE food grade fermenter, and leaving it overnight to cool, before aerating and pitching yeast?
> 
> You would have to plug the airlock with something. I dont have any cubes, but I like the idea of no-chill, and I plan to try it with a fermenter.
> 
> Would the air gap be a problem? If so I could make sure to fill the HDPE fermenter, and run some of the wort into a second fermenter for the actual fermentation step.




Instead of doing this, I just leave it in the kettle with the lid on, saves the hassle of transferring boiling hot wort. I just spray the inside of the pot and lid with orthophosphoric acid. Cools quicker in the pot anyway


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

barneyhanway said:


> I fill the airlock with cool boiled water, some inevitably gets sucks back in as a function of the cooling wort. Hasn't been an infection issue for me but there is a risk, you should decide whether or not that risk is acceptable to you.



If infection from Suck Back (tm) was a concern, you could use a sterile air filter in place of the airlock such as two-thirds of the site sponsors sell. That way, you get gas transfer in both directions, but no passage of nasties.


----------



## troywhite

hoppydog said:


> Has anyone tried no-chilling by racking hot wort straight into an HDPE food grade fermenter, and leaving it overnight to cool, before aerating and pitching yeast?
> 
> You would have to plug the airlock with something.



Ditto to what others have said. This is my method of chilling. 

I soak a cloth in a Prox solution and drape it over the airlock hole.


----------



## Doc

As per another members idea and concept earlier in the topic, I build myself a cubespanner this arvo.

No more busted bleeding fingers. Works a treat.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## lucas

I bought cube no. 2 today, sadly i dont think it's up for the task. it's labeled as a 20L water jerry can, and it's one of the taller, thinner ones. it's got two lids which i though would be great when pouring it into the fermenter through a strainer, to stop the "blop blop"'ing because there's no air flowing in to replace the liquid.

problem 1: the lids dont seal properly. big hint to anyone looking for cubes, make sure they have rubber seals in the lid to make a firm seal. this jerry can didnt, and now it's sucked in about 5L of air. when I sealed it it was full to the brim. no amount of tightening seems to be able to seal this one.

problem 2: the tall thin containers dont seem to hold their shape nearly as well as the squat square ones. I'm pretty sure I got about 25L into this (apparently) 20L container because the sides buldged way out. I definitely didnt feel safe squeezing the air out of this one to seal the lid.

I'm pretty disappointed since i thought the flat bottom on this one was going to make syphoning off the trub much easier, but I dont know if I'll be no chilling in this one again. might make an ok container for secondaries though. 

summary: make sure you're lids have rubber seals in them.


----------



## Kingy

Ive got the 20 litre plastic jerrys and they came with rubber seals. 1 Out 4 lids is a little dodgy but it does seal eventually after tighening and loosing a few times. Theres a trick to it  

I usually fill with 20-23 litres and stand it on its opposite corner to the lid and squeeze the air out this way as so i get most of it out.

I can also squeeze all the air out this way with only 17 litres in it.

cheers kingy

p.s probably a silly question but did you soak the new container for a few days to get the plastic smell out.


edit:just reread your post, sounds like you have a differant container to me


----------



## Doc

And now for the bad news.
I've had my first cube go bad.
I've been doing No Chill all year (each batch typically 2 cubes) and I brew at least twice a month.
The last batch I brewed was a Marzen (July 7) getting two cubes. Noticed today that one was swollen. Hadn't noticed in previously in the week so must have just taken.
Cube was tight and no longer square, it was almost oval. I have my cubes super tight with pretty much zero headspace.
Both cubes got the same dosage rate of PSR for the same period. 
Only thing I can think of is that I also santise the transfer tube in one of the cubes and from memory I had difficulty getting it out, so maybe I transfered something nasty in my efforts.
I cracked the lid, got a hiss. Took a whif and got a slightly off smell. The smell that you get from a very mild infection, or a very mild lambic.
Tipped it down the drain which hurt, because it was a beautiful deep orange sweet wort that will hopefully be an awesome Marzen. The second cube is still ok, but I was planning on fermenting all 50 litres together to make the best use of tying up the lager fridge. Oh well. RDWHAHB.

Doc


----------



## PostModern

Bummer Doc. Personally, I don't "trust" PSR as a sanitiser, I use it after emptying a cube (to ensure it's stored free of wort between uses) but wash the cubes with iodophor before filling. 

I also notice a bit of headspace in those pics. Is that just because of the infection or do you leave some airspace after filling? I think it's OK to have some small amount of headspace in the cubes, provided you turn the cubes over after filling to allow the heat to do it's work on the top of the cube.


----------



## Kai

I'm currently using PSR as my sanitiser since I have nothing else, but regardless of what I use everything gets a rinse with boiling water.


----------



## tangent

not no-frills boiling water Kai? that stuff is so cheap, how could it possibly work effectively?


----------



## Kai

Only Perrier or Evian, thank you.


----------



## tangent

"boiled fizzy water for the expensive sandgroper over here thankyou waiter!"


----------



## Doc

PostModern said:


> I also notice a bit of headspace in those pics. Is that just because of the infection or do you leave some airspace after filling? I think it's OK to have some small amount of headspace in the cubes, provided you turn the cubes over after filling to allow the heat to do it's work on the top of the cube.



The headspace is because the cube went bad. I have a bubble or two of space at most in a cube after filling and tightening the cube. This is typically from the airspace in the handle. I use clamps to squeeze the sides until a little wort flows before tightening the cap to ensure I have the minimialist amount of air in the cube.

Doc


----------



## colinsk

> As far as I've been able to tell it does get around the concern of botulism, as the toxin can't survive in an aerobic environment, Colin you might be able to lend some expertise there?



Well, this is my only concern. You can't kill anyone with the traditional method of making beer because (so far) no organisms that are pathogenic can survive the process. Here is my worst case thoughts. You take your wort and put it into a cube that has botulism spores in it. Now if the pH is 5.2 then it should kill the spores. However if you are using very alkaline water and only pale malts and you don't adjust your water with Ca, Mg or acid then you might have a wort pH of 5.8 or higher. 

I have been able to find a paper about pH and botulism and the pH of 5.5 kills pretty much any variety. However some rare variety's can survive at 5.5. This particular variety was found in a Australian coastal town.

Now when the wort comes from the boil it is for all intents and purposes of the discussion anaerobic. The is simply not enough O2 to kill botulism. Then as it cools you will get to the optimum temperature to culture the spores. Remember, the yeast lower the pH further and kill the botulism (or it should) so once it is pitched you only have to worry about the poison of the cells that happened to grow.

This is pretty much everything I know.

Thank you everyone for the kind words! I hope to do some more BN shows soon but I am not on the schedule yet.


----------



## matti

Any lager brewers that use no chill?
matti


----------



## Duff

matti said:


> Any lager brewers that use no chill?
> matti



Yep.


----------



## oldbugman

yep


----------



## PostModern

I've n/c'd three lagers so far.


----------



## matti

When new gear has been put through the paces with an APA of sort the lagers will be going brewd my way.
Didn't want to spend any more $$$$$$
cheers


----------



## Doc

Brewed an American Brown about a month ago and added ~100gr of cascade flowers in a hop bag into the cube.
Cracked it today to ferment it.
Wow what an aroma.
Only downside is getting the dam hops out. I knew it would probably be an issue, but I think it is going to be worth it :beerbang: 

Doc


----------



## Stuster

Nice one, Doc. Flowers as well. How did you get them out?


----------



## Steve

Doc said:


> Brewed an American Brown about a month ago and added ~100gr of cascade flowers in a hop bag into the cube.
> Cracked it today to ferment it.
> Wow what an aroma.
> Only downside is getting the dam hops out. I knew it would probably be an issue, but I think it is going to be worth it :beerbang:
> 
> Doc
> 
> View attachment 15055
> 
> View attachment 15056




 the bags swollen that big because it sucked up all the wort. You can see the inside of the tap outlet in the bottom of the fermenter in the top pic :lol: 
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Doc

Stuster said:


> Nice one, Doc. Flowers as well. How did you get them out?



Undid the hop bag through the hole and pulled the flowers out a couple at a time.
My hands still smell of hops, and the laundry (where the empty cube and hop bag are) smell like a hop garden :super: 

Doc


----------



## Duff

Doc said:


> Undid the hop bag through the hole and pulled the flowers out a couple at a time.



A real exercise in patience :lol:


----------



## Doc

Steve said:


> the bags swollen that big because it sucked up all the wort. You can see the inside of the tap outlet in the bottom of the fermenter in the top pic :lol:



hahah, yeah that was the other downside. Losing a litre of so of wort to the hops. 

Doc


----------



## blackbock

matti said:


> Any lager brewers that use no chill?



Yes! I would say it's a goer for most styles, with the possible exception of some Pilsners- I always seem to detect very faint DMS whenever I try to do them with NC.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

What type of malts are you using?

Cheers


----------



## PostModern

What's wrong with faint DMS in a Pilsner?


----------



## blackbock

That depends on what you call faint.
Personally I hate DMS. I'd rather avoid it and concentrate on the hop aromas.

Malts I have tried include JW, BB Galaxy, Powells. But I put it down to other things than the malt brand.


----------



## braufrau

Colin Kaminski said:


> Well, this is my only concern. You can't kill anyone with the traditional method of making beer because (so far) no organisms that are pathogenic can survive the process. Here is my worst case thoughts. You take your wort and put it into a cube that has botulism spores in it. Now if the pH is 5.2 then it should kill the spores. However if you are using very alkaline water and only pale malts and you don't adjust your water with Ca, Mg or acid then you might have a wort pH of 5.8 or higher.
> 
> I have been able to find a paper about pH and botulism and the pH of 5.5 kills pretty much any variety. However some rare variety's can survive at 5.5. This particular variety was found in a Australian coastal town.
> 
> Now when the wort comes from the boil it is for all intents and purposes of the discussion anaerobic. The is simply not enough O2 to kill botulism. Then as it cools you will get to the optimum temperature to culture the spores. Remember, the yeast lower the pH further and kill the botulism (or it should) so once it is pitched you only have to worry about the poison of the cells that happened to grow.
> 
> This is pretty much everything I know.
> 
> Thank you everyone for the kind words! I hope to do some more BN shows soon but I am not on the schedule yet.




Yesterday I started exploring the no chill concept, suddenly realising it would allow me to do bigger boils without buying/making a wort chiller.
The botulism thingy was bothering me too. The "I'm not dead yet" argument doesn't cut it with me. 
So I did some googling and realised I'd forgotten about the antimicrobial action of hops.
study
patent

Sorry if this has already been pointed out, but I couldn't wade through 57 pages of history.


----------



## tangent

i've done 2x no-chills
the 1st one, the cube melted
the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar

i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

It's clearly not for everyone. As a thirty-plus brew veteran yet to purchase, use or even touch a chiller, it kinda works for me.

The thing about brewing is that you can pick and choose all the techniques, equipments and ingredients you want/need/desire and have some fun at the expense of those who choose another method - in this case, brewers who are depleting the world's copper resources!


----------



## braufrau

tangent said:


> i've done 2x no-chills
> the 1st one, the cube melted
> the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar
> 
> i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.



Ahhh ... but what if I were to say that no chill would allow me to do some moderate gravity AG??
Then what would be your advice?


----------



## Gerard_M

braufrau said:


> The botulism thingy was bothering me too. The "I'm not dead yet" argument doesn't cut it with me.



6000 casks filled & sold in under a year. 
No dramas.

Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Pumpy

tangent said:


> i've done 2x no-chills
> the 1st one, the cube melted
> the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar
> 
> i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.




Tangent ,

I did not think you were a 'Luddite' and was against change 

20 batches now and no problem 

90C is fine to NC the flexibility it offers is fantastic to the home brewer .

Pumpy


----------



## oldbugman

Anyone got an idea of the lifespan of a wort in a cube which is sealed up good and proper?


----------



## braufrau

Gerard_M said:


> 6000 casks filled & sold in under a year.
> No dramas.
> 
> Cheers
> Gerard




Yeah but ... botulism is actually a very rare bacteria ... but you just need it once not to have to worry about it anymore ...

but I think its a moot point now. If the wort didn't have hops in it, you should be worried.

Someone used a jam analogy further back in this thread, which isn't a great analogy since jam is acidic but a lot of jam makers don't
properly pasteurise their product. My mother in law being one and she has used the very same "ooh I've made 1000s of jars" argument too.
My grandmother inlaw is sensitive to pennicilin and became very ill after eating some improperly prepared jam.
That was really bad luck because not all species of pennicillin make the antibiotic and I'm sure the lady who made the jam had made 1000s of jars
and no one got sick!

Another example is you can sometimes spot a pregnant woman at a dinner party before she "shows" because she avoids the wine and brie.
Listeria is another uncommon bacteria that sometimes has devastating effects. Although its uncommon, most pregnant women don't take the chance.
And BTW - Listeria is knocked out by hops too. 

Well my point is ... its almost certainly safe because of the hops but 1000s of no chill beer is not proof.


----------



## tangent

Pumpy, to me that's 100% failure with one technique vs. 100% success with another.
obviously I'm doing something wrong in one instance and Ok in another.
i'll stick with beer vs. vinegar


----------



## bindi

40 plus no chill and not ONE dud, and I make beer!!!!!  not vinegar, What are you Guys doing wrong? :huh: 
And BIG beers they are.


----------



## big d

Sorry to say it Braufrau but its looking as if you will have to give up making beer.Just to be on the safe side of course.  

Cheers in nc
Big D


----------



## warrenlw63

braufrau said:


> Yeah but ... botulism is actually a very rare bacteria ... but you just need it once not to have to worry about it anymore ...



BF I'm hoping you're not Darren in drag by some chance? :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## PostModern

OldBugman said:


> Anyone got an idea of the lifespan of a wort in a cube which is sealed up good and proper?



I think Ray Mills posted earlier in this thread that he'd gone > 6 months.

I brewed like a maniac in January this year and was fermenting the wort as late as May with no problems.


----------



## mikelinz

But surly the whole point with no chill is that your are putting a heat pasturised liquid into a sealed container that is being heat pasturised by the heat in the liquid. So there can be no living nasties in the container until you open it after it has cooled down (assuming 1 sufficient heat to start with & 2 an air tight container.

rgds mike


----------



## mikelinz

Excuse the dumb question of the day but what is a "cube"

rgds mike


----------



## deebee

mikelinz said:


> But surly the whole point with no chill is that your are putting a heat pasturised liquid into a sealed container that is being heat pasturised by the heat in the liquid. So there can be no living nasties in the container until you open it after it has cooled down (assuming 1 sufficient heat to start with & 2 an air tight container.



Not necessarily. There has been much discussion and debate and no one can say that botulism spores will not survive those temperatures given typical pH levels and anaerobic conditions of fresh wort.



mikelinz said:


> Excuse the dumb question of the day but what is a "cube"



Plastic jerry cans, often in roughly cubic shape.


----------



## therook

tangent said:


> i've done 2x no-chills
> the 1st one, the cube melted
> the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar
> 
> i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.



I would be looking at my quality of cube if it is melting and turning into Vinegar.

I dont think anyone one else has posted a failure using this method.

Rook


----------



## MAH

braufrau said:


> but 1000s of no chill beer is not proof.



I thought within science repeatability is considered proof. If everything taken as scientific fact had to have 100% certainty then, we would have a very small curriculum.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## SJW

> i've done 2x no-chills
> the 1st one, the cube melted
> the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar
> 
> i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.



I have done at least 15 no chillers now with 100% every time. As for low hop aroma. I add all my late addition hops straight into the cube. If thats not enough I will dry hop in the keg or at the end of primary fermentation. 
Also after some contact time I throw all mine into the pool to bring em down quick, then store under the house at a constant 15 - 20 deg C. 
I would say by now that enough people have had a go at this for it to be, as those two clowns on Mythbusters would say, CONFIRMED.
Anyone in the NSW X-Mas case swap will be drinking my Belgian Strong that was no chiller, so for those who have not had a go.............................HAVE A GO............

STEVE


----------



## drsmurto

I no chill into a fermenter. I figure that most kit instructions tell you to mix up the goo with boiling water so they must be rated to at least 100degC.

I plan on chilling one day but the list of things i want to buy is a few pages so the chiller keeps being out off. 

I wont be adding too many late (after 15mins) additions - dry hop instead, no point in wasting the hops!

Cheers
DrSmurto


----------



## Lukes

therook said:


> I would be looking at my quality of cube if it is melting and turning into Vinegar.
> I dont think anyone one else has posted a failure using this method.
> Rook



I have :angry: 
It was too much head room in the cube and maybe not fully cleaned around the handle area.
As Doc posted I now run cubes at a slightly higher grav than the brew I want and Squeeze all the air out.
Have not had a problem since.


----------



## crozdog

Luke,

In July I fermented 2 cubes which I made up back in November last year - that's 8 months by my counting. Bloody nice drop too - I'll give you a sample on Saturday @ the brew day.


----------



## Steve Lacey

MAH said:


> I thought within science repeatability is considered proof. If everything taken as scientific fact had to have 100% certainty then, we would have a very small curriculum.



MAH, you could call it evidence, but not necessarily proof. The repeated non-appearance of something that has a low probability of appearance is not proof that it does not exist. When you are talking about things that have extremely low rates of incidence, you have to collect an enormous amount of data before you can claim proof. By way of example, we have repeatedly failed to show that electromagnetic radiation from outer space comes from an intelligent life form (as far as I know), but this doesn't mean we have proved the non-existence of extra-terrestrial beings. 

Not that I am taking sides on the point of substance here, just pointing out this little point of logic. For what it is worth I am, out of necessity, a practitioner of NCNC... no-cube no-chill.


----------



## troydo

both my ags ive done so far have been no chilled both great... 

just swished some no rinse sanartiser in and squeezed out most of the air


----------



## warrenlw63

Lukes said:


> I have :angry:
> It was too much head room in the cube and maybe not fully cleaned around the handle area.
> As Doc posted I now run cubes at a slightly higher grav than the brew I want and Squeeze all the air out.
> Have not had a problem since.



Hey Luke

Just out of curiousity when you fill your cubes do you sit them on their sides for 30 minutes or so to let the liquid sanitize the handle? I think I remeber Bigfridge saying that this is NNL's preferred method when filling their fresh wort kits.

What I usually do is fill the cubes and leave them on the side for a couple of hours. I just rotate every 30 minutes. After then I stand them upright until I'm ready to use them.

Just to be safe I also hot water and napisan the cubes after emptying the wort. On brew day I fill them with 5ml of iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of them to get some good sanitizer contact.

I'd like to think I treat the cubes in the same way as a fermenter in terms of cleanliness regardless of the hot wort pasteurizing them.

I've now done 20 no chill batches thus far. Being 42 litre batches that accounts to 40 cubes. None have gone manky on me yet (touch wood). h34r: 

Warren -


----------



## Kai

deebee said:


> Not necessarily. There has been much discussion and debate and no one can say that botulism spores will not survive those temperatures given typical pH levels and anaerobic conditions of fresh wort.



No-one has satisfactorily established that the conditions in a no-chill cube will suit botulinum growth either. HDPE vessels are gas permeable so there is going to be O2 ingress.


----------



## Stuster

Ok, so not proof, but evidence that this there is not a high risk of botulism in Australia. First, from here.



> A case of infant botulism was reported from Victoria during the first quarter of 2001 (see National Polio Reference Laboratory report p.54, this issue). This is only the fourth case of botulism in Australia since 1996. All cases have been in infants aged less than one year. Infant (or intestinal) botulism cases arise from ingestion of Clostridium botulinum spores, which germinate in the intestine. Sources of spores are multiple and include foods such as honey and dust. In this case, a 5-month-old infant was hospitalised after a 3-day history of poor feeding, constipation, ptosis, difficulty in swallowing, weakness and loss of head control. Although there were various environmental exposures, including dust, no source for the child's infection could be determined.



Also, for you mead makers out there, from here.



> There have been only six cases of botulism reported in Australia between 1991 and 2003. Two of these occurred in Victoria in 2000 and 2001 (Communicable Diseases Network Australia - National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System)....Sources of spores include foods such as honey and dust. Honey has been described in the US literature as a source of infection but never implicated in Australia and surveys of Australian honey have failed to identify C. botulinum.


----------



## Stuster

warrenlw63 said:


> What I usually do is fill the cubes and leave them on the side for a couple of hours. I just rotate every 30 minutes. After then I stand them upright until I'm ready to use them.
> 
> Just to be safe I also hot water and napisan the cubes after emptying the wort. On brew day I fill them with 5ml of iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of them to get some good sanitizer contact.
> 
> I'd like to think I treat the cubes in the same way as a fermenter in terms of cleanliness regardless of the hot wort pasteurizing them.



That is exactly the same process I use. Is it a case of great minds or...?


----------



## therook

crozdog said:


> Luke,
> 
> In July I fermented 2 cubes which I made up back in November last year - that's 8 months by my counting. Bloody nice drop too - I'll give you a sample on Saturday @ the brew day.



crozdog,

how were these stored?

Rook


----------



## braufrau

warrenlw63 said:


> BF I'm hoping you're not Darren in drag by some chance? :lol:
> 
> Warren -



Yes. I'm Darren in Drag!

Oh this is sooo unfair. 
I just posted yesterday saying "hey guys the botulism debate is over because hop oil kills botulism" and posted a couple of links and happened
to mention that without the hops you'd be taking your life in your hands I'm now the wicked witch of the anti no chill brigade.

Boo hoo!

I'm sooo misunderstood! 

And BTW - (man! i just can't help myself) boiling wort will not kill botulism which can survive to 116C which is why non acidic foods (pH > 5.5) have to be
canned under pressure.


----------



## braufrau

OK OK! I'll just say this ....


thanks to everyone who volunteered to be lab rats in the no chill experiment. I really glad it turned out not to be dangerous. 

Oh man! I really should tape my fingers together!


----------



## Stuster

Braufrau happily stirred her wort, soon to be no-chilled.


----------



## crozdog

therook said:


> crozdog,
> 
> how were these stored?
> 
> Rook


Just on the concrete floor of the colorbond garage. For a few months they were opposite a west facing window - i didn't even consider the potential effects of light strike but I must say it is a really tasty bo-pils!


----------



## crozdog

forgot to say that once I empty a cube into a fermenter, the cube gets a rinse, a soak in sodium percarbonate, another rinse then I put a teaspoon of sodium metabisulphite & a cup or 2 of hot water into the cube then seal it up & shake. Before filling, they get a good rinse and iodorphor.

the sodium met keeps bugs out between use. Dunno if it kills botulism, but I'm more worried about mould & other bacteria which can infect the wort.


----------



## deebee

Kai said:


> No-one has satisfactorily established that the conditions in a no-chill cube will suit botulinum growth either. HDPE vessels are gas permeable so there is going to be O2 ingress.




Indeedy. I should have added to my post, "But many, like me, have taken the time to read the arguments to and fro and have decided to take a calculated risk, if it really is one, and brew no chill." 

I really do wonder how much O2 gets in though. For instance I wouldn't ever pitch yeast into it without aerating. And we don't know how much or how little O2 will render the conditions unsuitable for botulinum.

Still. I don't wonder about it that much.


DB


----------



## PostModern

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Luke
> 
> Just out of curiousity when you fill your cubes do you sit them on their sides for 30 minutes or so to let the liquid sanitize the handle? I think I remeber Bigfridge saying that this is NNL's preferred method when filling their fresh wort kits.
> 
> What I usually do is fill the cubes and leave them on the side for a couple of hours. I just rotate every 30 minutes. After then I stand them upright until I'm ready to use them.
> 
> Just to be safe I also hot water and napisan the cubes after emptying the wort. On brew day I fill them with 5ml of iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of them to get some good sanitizer contact.
> 
> I'd like to think I treat the cubes in the same way as a fermenter in terms of cleanliness regardless of the hot wort pasteurizing them.
> 
> I've now done 20 no chill batches thus far. Being 42 litre batches that accounts to 40 cubes. None have gone manky on me yet (touch wood). h34r:
> 
> Warren -






Stuster said:


> That is exactly the same process I use. Is it a case of great minds or...?



Make that three, but I alternate the Napisan with PSR. Those who haven't succeeded with NC will have done something different in their process or used a non-suitable container, I think.



braufrau said:


> I just posted yesterday saying "hey guys the botulism debate is over because hop oil kills botulism" and posted a couple of links and happened
> to mention that without the hops you'd be taking your life in your hands I'm now the wicked witch of the anti no chill brigade.



I think Darren poo-pooed the hops protection thing. Something about hop dilution in beer being too weak or something???


----------



## warrenlw63

Stuster said:


> Is it a case of great minds or...?



Paranoid old molls?  

Warren -


----------



## oldbugman

crozdog said:


> I'll give you a sample on Saturday @ the brew day.




It's more like a brew 1/2 day.


----------



## Gerard_M

Steve Lacey said:


> By way of example, we have repeatedly failed to show that electromagnetic radiation from outer space comes from an intelligent life form (as far as I know), but this doesn't mean we have proved the non-existence of extra-terrestrial beings.
> 
> Not that I am taking sides on the point of substance here, just pointing out this little point of logic. For what it is worth I am, out of necessity, a practitioner of NCNC... no-cube no-chill.



Steve
Are you trying to tell us that you believe in the no-chill method, but you don't believe in life in outer space??

Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Kai

deebee said:


> Indeedy. I should have added to my post, "But many, like me, have taken the time to read the arguments to and fro and have decided to take a calculated risk, if it really is one, and brew no chill."
> 
> I really do wonder how much O2 gets in though. For instance I wouldn't ever pitch yeast into it without aerating. And we don't know how much or how little O2 will render the conditions unsuitable for botulinum.
> 
> Still. I don't wonder about it that much.
> DB




I agree completely.


----------



## Lukes

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Luke
> 
> Just out of curiousity when you fill your cubes do you sit them on their sides for 30 minutes or so to let the liquid sanitize the handle? I think I remeber Bigfridge saying that this is NNL's preferred method when filling their fresh wort kits.
> What I usually do is fill the cubes and leave them on the side for a couple of hours. I just rotate every 30 minutes. After then I stand them upright until I'm ready to use them.
> Just to be safe I also hot water and napisan the cubes after emptying the wort. On brew day I fill them with 5ml of iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of them to get some good sanitizer contact.
> I'd like to think I treat the cubes in the same way as a fermenter in terms of cleanliness regardless of the hot wort pasteurizing them.
> I've now done 20 no chill batches thus far. Being 42 litre batches that accounts to 40 cubes. None have gone manky on me yet (touch wood). h34r:
> Warren -



I give them a rinse then a bit of hot water & nappy sam overnight, rinse and chuck a campten tab in there with a bit of water seal up until needed again.
Then just a quick rinse with sanitizer (using the Hersil/Hysan stuff from the bulk buy) 
I too turn them so all inner surface including the handle touch the hot wort.
I now make the batch size suit the cube volumes and at a few higher points.
I also picked up a cube spanner from G&G a few weeks ago so you can really get the lid on tight.

- Luke


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Having cleaned them with Percarbonate, I usually give my cubes a dose of either Iodophor or Herlisil FP before storing and then again immediately before use. I try to squeeze as much air out of them as possible and ensure all surfaces have been warmed by the hot liquid.

Over the past, a few people have discussed hop flavour/aroma issues. Is cube-hopping the current agreed best solution?


----------



## warrenlw63

Lukes said:


> I also picked up a cube spanner from G&G a few weeks ago so you can really get the lid on tight.
> 
> - Luke



:lol: Great minds. Was in there Saturday morning and saw a box full of the cube spanners for $2.50 a piece. First thing I grabbed. 

No more opening cubes with a rag or doing a G-clamp up on the lid and turning. :icon_cheers: 

Warren -


----------



## therook

warrenlw63 said:


> :lol: Great minds. Was in there Saturday morning and saw a box full of the cube spanners for $2.50 a piece. First thing I grabbed.
> 
> No more opening cubes with a rag or doing a G-clamp up on the lid and turning. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Warren -




So your grip isn't the same as when you were youger Wazza  

Rook


----------



## warrenlw63

therook said:


> So your grip isn't the same as when you were youger Wazza
> 
> Rook



:lol: :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## PostModern

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Over the past, a few people have discussed hop flavour/aroma issues. Is cube-hopping the current agreed best solution?



I've taken to whirlpool hopping. After flameout, the wort still has convection circulation going on. You can see the hot break floating around. I lid the kettle and wait about 5 mins for this to stop. I then chuck in pellets and whirlpool as normal. Nice pile of break and hop debris left in the kettle and a strong aroma coming off the wort. 

I have a pale ale with just two additions (12g Warrior bittering and 20g Nelson Sauvin aroma) sitting in a cube atm. Will report back at how effective this is when it's kegged. It wouldn't be fair to say the 135g flameout hop monster I just finished had a distinct hop aroma would it?


----------



## Hutch

Lukes said:


> I give them a rinse then a bit of hot water & nappy sam overnight, rinse and chuck a campten tab in there with a bit of water seal up until needed again.
> Then just a quick rinse with sanitizer (using the Hersil/Hysan stuff from the bulk buy)
> 
> - Luke



I'm interested to know how others store their cubes while not in use. 
After emptying the no-chill cube contents, I give it a thorough clean with Sodium Percarbonate and boiling water, and a few rinses with hot water. This leaves them pretty-much sparkling clean.I then just leave them upside-down with lids off until ready to use next time, when I give them a good soak with phosphoric Acid-based sanitiser. 

This is all fine, however I'm curious whether their is a suitable sanitary solution to leave in the cubes when in storage, with the lid firmly sealed, that will prevent any mould/bacteria growth, or other nasties setting up home (spiders, cockroaches, etc.).
I previously left nappysan solution in a few cubes for several months, which resulted in a putrid smell that could not be removed from the plastic. I'm hesitent to use bleach for similar reasons, and becasue I beleive it does not have a long shelf life when diluted down.
Lukes mentions Campden tabs in water. Does anybody else have a recommended long-term sanitary solution?

Hutch.


----------



## drsmurto

Surely if you used a no rinse sanitiser and then sealed it up you would have no problems?


----------



## therook

all i have done for years is wash out we Napisan and then soak over night in napisan, rinse out until ready to use.

prior to using i then Iodophor the cube

Rook


----------



## Hutch

DrSmurto said:


> Surely if you used a no rinse sanitiser and then sealed it up you would have no problems?



That's what I'm thinking - maybe the phosphoric acid would be ideal for long-term storage, as it doesn't break down (as far as I know), is a very strong no-rinse acid, and it doesn't impart an objectionable smell.
(I guess if it's not a problem in a sealed can of CocaCola, then it's good enough in a sealed NC cube, huh?)


----------



## drsmurto

Hutch said:


> That's what I'm thinking - maybe the phosphoric acid would be ideal for long-term storage, as it doesn't break down (as far as I know), is a very strong no-rinse acid, and it doesn't impart an objectionable smell.
> (I guess if it's not a problem in a sealed can of CocaCola, then it's good enough in a sealed NC cube, huh?!



Sorry Hutch - i was implying that you rinse the cube with it, drain it and then seal it. The small amount left over should be ok but you would then need to repeat prior to use.

I leave napisan in mine for the few weeks inbetween use and then hit it with one-shot just before using


----------



## Stuster

I think as long as you are cleaning it thoroughly, then ensuring it is dry before putting it away, there is very little chance of any mould developing on it, or of any creatures setting up home in it. Mould is unlikely to develop if there's no food/water there. Just give it a quick rinse, a no-rinse sanitiser and away you go.  

At least, that is how I store mine (dry) and I've yet to have a problem with it.


----------



## Lukes

I cannot lay claim as it was not my idea. 
As always someone here suggested it.
It work's for me.

BTW: they don't stay empty for long.  

- Luke


----------



## Duff

After dumping into fermenter, rinse with hot water until clean, fill with non scented bleach solution. Expel air and leave full in dark location until ready to use next.

Open 15 minutes before filling on brew day, tip out bleach solution, rinse with hot water 2 - 3 times. Fill with hot wort. Expel air.

Gone this way for 18 months now with the same cubes, no problems.


----------



## troywhite

Hutch said:


> I'm interested to know how others store their cubes while not in use.



I just leave them sitting there with the lids on clean but not sterilised. They are totally dried first before the lid is put on.

I don't bother with the sterilisation until the time just before I am planning to use them.


----------



## PostModern

I'm with Stuster. Store empty and dry.


----------



## SJW

> Is cube-hopping the current agreed best solution?



It's my solution anyway


----------



## SJW

> I just leave them sitting there with the lids on clean but not sterilised. They are totally dried first before the lid is put on.
> 
> I don't bother with the sterilisation until the time just before I am planning to use them.



Thats what I do.


----------



## craig maher

PostModern said:


> I'm with Stuster. Store empty and dry.



Me 3 - Dry and empty here too :beer:


----------



## rehnton

SJW said:


> Thats what I do.



how long do you guys use your cubes for?
mine develop a nasty discoloration in a couple of brews


----------



## PostModern

rehnton said:


> how long do you guys use your cubes for?
> mine develop a nasty discoloration in a couple of brews



What sort of cubes do you use? I use a 20L version of the 17L ones NNL use. Same material (food grade HDPE) as ndbrewing's ones as well, tho those are a different shape. I've put quite a few brews through a couple of my containers and they're nothing but white. I do use PSR and napisan to clean them, so maybe they're well bleached?


----------



## Hutch

rehnton said:


> how long do you guys use your cubes for?
> mine develop a nasty discoloration in a couple of brews


This is where the Nappy-San / Sodium Percarbonate comes in handy.
After emptying the wort from the cube, it's normally stained a very dirty off-white colour. Boiling water and a teaspoon of sodium Percarbonate fizzes like mad. Shake the crap out of it for a few minutes, poor out the dirty liquid, rinse with a little more boiling water and you're left with a spotless cube. 

Discovering Sodium Percarbonate and acid sanitiser have been the most important improvements to my brewery!


----------



## SJW

> This is where the Nappy-San / Sodium Percarbonate comes in handy.
> After emptying the wort from the cube, it's normally stained a very dirty off-white colour. Boiling water and a teaspoon of sodium Percarbonate fizzes like mad. Shake the crap out of it for a few minutes, poor out the dirty liquid, rinse with a little more boiling water and you're left with a spotless cube.
> 
> Discovering Sodium Percarbonate and acid sanitiser have been the most important improvements to my brewery!



I am hearing ya. Nice point about the boiling water with the Sodium Per. I was talking to the boss of the chemical company where I got my Sodium Per from and he said that you need to mix with at least 60 deg C water to activate. And in his opinion it was far better than Iodophor for sanatisation aswell. The only down side that I find is you need to rinse and there you have a opotunity for contamination compared with Iodophor that is no rinse. And IMO Sodium Per would be a lot safer to use than PSR. Even though I dont know whats in PSR the fumes it gives off indicate that it aint good.

Steve


----------



## PostModern

SJW said:


> I am hearing ya. Nice point about the boiling water with the Sodium Per. I was talking to the boss of the chemical company where I got my Sodium Per from and he said that you need to mix with at least 60 deg C water to activate. And in his opinion it was far better than Iodophor for sanatisation aswell. The only down side that I find is you need to rinse and there you have a opotunity for contamination compared with Iodophor that is no rinse. And IMO Sodium Per would be a lot safer to use than PSR. Even though I dont know whats in PSR the fumes it gives off indicate that it aint good.
> 
> Steve



PSR is a chlorine based cleaner. The fumes are chlorine gas. I use it every couple of batches just to shake things up for the lurking botulism spores.

I'll have to try the napisan with hot water next time. I usually have the cube partially filled with cold before my taps run hot, so probably only about 45-50C when I add the percarbonate. My hot tap was 67 last time I measured, so it should be enough to "activate" the percarbonate.


----------



## SJW

> I'll have to try the napisan with hot water next time. I usually have the cube partially filled with cold before my taps run hot, so probably only about 45-50C when I add the percarbonate. My hot tap was 67 last time I measured, so it should be enough to "activate" the percarbonate.



Should be OK. I noticed that the Napi-san products are a lot soapier than the pure Sodium Per and need a lot more rinsing. But a lot of blokes use it and it must be fine. Just do a test with a tes spoon of napi-san in a glass and add the hot water. If it fizzes up like mad then I would say its working. I did the same with Sod. Per. and boiling water and it almost exploded. 100% foam everywhere.


----------



## wambesi

So where is the best way to get some cubes that are food grade?
I am starting to aquire items needed for my first AG brew in Dec hols and know you can get some at Bunnings, but are these good enough quality/size/food grade?

Local areas to me are Epping/Greensborough in Melb. Thanks guys.


----------



## therook

wambesi said:


> So where is the best way to get some cubes that are food grade?
> I am starting to aquire items needed for my first AG brew in Dec hols and know you can get some at Bunnings, but are these good enough quality/size/food grade?
> 
> Local areas to me are Epping/Greensborough in Melb. Thanks guys.



Try Bunnings in Epping...In the camping area.

or 

Wait until the next rays outdoors sale over in preston

Rook


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

therook said:


> Try Bunnings in Epping...In the camping area.
> 
> or
> 
> Wait until the next rays outdoors sale over in preston
> 
> Rook



or

If you like blue Willow jerries, SuperCheapAuto.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

To get the Sodium Percarbonate happening, I boil the kettle (the one I use to make tea and instant coffee) and pour a bit of that into the cube on top of it. I figure that I don't have to have a huge quantity of liquid in there if I give it a good shake and get it bloated from the steam...


----------



## rehnton

PostModern said:


> What sort of cubes do you use? I use a 20L version of the 17L ones NNL use. Same material (food grade HDPE) as ndbrewing's ones as well, tho those are a different shape. I've put quite a few brews through a couple of my containers and they're nothing but white. I do use PSR and napisan to clean them, so maybe they're well bleached?



i use the blue food grade 20L water containers from Super Cheap Auto or Kmart. About $20 a go. I clean with bleach but it makes no difference to discoloration....investment in napi san maybe on cards!

but still......do you guys have a rule of thumb re: replacement of cask. i have one that ive been using for 4 months of so; starting to think that its due for recycling


----------



## PostModern

rehnton said:


> i use the blue food grade 20L water containers from Super Cheap Auto or Kmart. About $20 a go. I clean with bleach but it makes no difference to discoloration....investment in napi san maybe on cards!
> 
> but still......do you guys have a rule of thumb re: replacement of cask. i have one that ive been using for 4 months of so; starting to think that its due for recycling



I have one I've been using all of this year (purchased from Cospak for those interested). Might be time to retire it to a cold conditioning cube and get some fresh ones for no-chill, just in case Darren is right.


----------



## braufrau

PostModern said:


> I have one I've been using all of this year (purchased from Cospak for those interested). Might be time to retire it to a cold conditioning cube and get some fresh ones for no-chill, just in case Darren is right.




According to the links  I posted, to inhibit the growth of botulism required only 1ppm of hop oil.
The report here  say that its the beta acids which are the important component in preservation.

An IBU is a part per million of just the alpha acids. 
An average sort of ale of 25 IBUs, would have 25ppm of alpha acids alone.
Assuming the other components are extracted proportionally, the beer contains more than 25 times the oil required to kill botulism .

Botulism is not a problem unless you are making unhopped beers.


----------



## Hutch

rehnton said:


> i use the blue food grade 20L water containers from Super Cheap Auto or Kmart. About $20 a go. I clean with bleach but it makes no difference to discoloration....investment in napi san maybe on cards!
> 
> but still......do you guys have a rule of thumb re: replacement of cask. i have one that ive been using for 4 months of so; starting to think that its due for recycling


Not that there's anything wrong with buying new cubes for $20, but I prefer to buy fresh wort cubes from G&G for $35, and get a fan-f-tastic 20Ltrs of beer from the proceeds :lol: 
These are 17Ltrs capacity, which suits my AG brewing perfectly, as I try to aim for 17Ltrs post-boil.
I've started to accumulate quite a few of these cubes, more than I need in fact (if anyone in the Melbourne area is interested in a free cube or 2 and you're willing to pick them up, PM me).

Hutch.


----------



## PostModern

braufrau said:


> According to the links  I posted, to inhibit the growth of botulism required only 1ppm of hop oil.
> The report here  say that its the beta acids which are the important component in preservation.
> 
> An IBU is a part per million of just the alpha acids.
> An average sort of ale of 25 IBUs, would have 25ppm of alpha acids alone.
> Assuming the other components are extracted proportionally, the beer contains more than 25 times the oil required to kill botulism .
> 
> Botulism is not a problem unless you are making unhopped beers.



Well, I'm sold. Again


----------



## deebee

braufrau said:


> Assuming the other components are extracted proportionally, the beer contains more than 25 times the oil required to kill botulism .
> 
> Botulism is not a problem unless you are making unhopped beers.



Wooohooo. This is the sort of explicit categorical certainty I can dig. 

Does Darren still read these threads? Is there a comeback to this?


----------



## PostModern

deebee said:


> Wooohooo. This is the sort of explicit categorical certainty I can dig.
> 
> Does Darren still read these threads? Is there a comeback to this?



I'm pretty sure he refuted this study the first time it came up.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

PostModern said:


> I'm pretty sure he refuted this study the first time it came up.




...and he's been a bit quiet recently. I wonder if... h34r:


----------



## deebee

I have done about half a dozen no chill brews and all is good. There is one obvious advantage to no chill that I can't remember reading in these 60 odd pages and that is in pitching the yeast. 

I aim for 25 litres post boil. About 24 litres goes into my 20 litre jerry (!) and the last spare litre goes into a hot sterilised jar. I use that spare wort to step up my starter. When the starter is ready to pitch I put it into the fermenting fridge with the jerry. About a day later, when the temps come together, I pitch the yeast.

Instead of timing the starter to be ready on brew day, I just wait till it _is _ready before pitching it. The yeast get accustomed to the exact wort they will soon be fermenting and all temperatures are stabilised and uniform and comfortable for the yeast.

I did my first NC lager last weekend and realised there was none of that stress about getting the wort to the right temps in the right time frame. Just dial up the temp you want, come back the next day and pitch it into a clean fermenter.


----------



## Darren

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> ...and he's been a bit quiet recently. I wonder if... h34r:





Hahahha you guys are so humorous.

What you really have missed about my original comments on the no-chill method was that SPOILAGE organisms (including C. botulinum) were more likely to be a problem. I notice the growing number of posters in the "Disasters" thread is growing. I believe I predicted that.  I suspect it will continue to grow  

My other concern was that some guys were going for extended storage of NC beer. Again this is frought with problems. 

As for hop oils killing CB spores, I have no evidence that it does or doesnt. If they were such good anti-microbial agents then they would be more commonly used in medicines. I suspect the data has been produced by the same people that profess that herbal medicines are "cure-alls" too.

I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer? That might seem funny to you but I am always amazed when judging beers at competitions how many beers are obviously infected but the competitor still entered it, probably thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread  


FWIW, I have always been a NC of sorts for lagers. I get the beer down to the 20 C mark then chill the rest in the fridge for 24hrs then pitch.


Some men you just can't teach

cheers

Darren


----------



## deebee

Darren said:


> I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer?



I have long suspected this is true of homebrewers generally. But no chillers seem to come from the more dedicated end of amateur brewing and most have probably brewed enough to tell the difference.

At least with no chill you seem to get a clear symptom of infection (swelling cube) before you waste a starter on it.


----------



## Stuster

Darren said:


> I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer? That might seem funny to you but I am always amazed when judging beers at competitions how many beers are obviously infected but the competitor still entered it, probably thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread



Nice attitude to no-chillers there, Dazza. <_< 

A very important role for competitions is in helping brewers identify problems with their beers. If the brewer is not sure what is wrong with their beer, this is a great way to get objective feedback on it. Do you have any evidence that the beers you picked as infected were no-chill beers?

I'm not sure if you followed braufrau's links  , but the first one doesn't seem like a site that's dedicated to cure-all herbal nonsense to me. Here's another one, from here.



> [0023] It has been reported in U. S. Patent No. 6,251, 461 that hop extracts including a mixture of beta-acids and alpha-acids and hop extracts including beta- acids and no alpha acids provide inhibitory activity of Clostridium botulinum and Clostridium difficile spores in broth media. In particular, the hop extracts produced inhibitory activity towards eight Clostridium botulinum strains at a concentration as low as 1 ppm. Similarly, spores of Clostridium diffcile strains were inhibited by the hop extracts at concentrations as low as 1 ppm.



So that's a US patent that shows that 1IBU inhibits botulism spore activity. Now, what evidence do you have that this is not true?


----------



## Zizzle

I suspect you are wasting your time there Stuster.

I think he applies this philosophy to himself:



Darren said:


> Some men you just can't teach


----------



## SJW

> I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer? That might seem funny to you but I am always amazed when judging beers at competitions how many beers are obviously infected but the competitor still entered it, probably thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread




Your drawing a long bow there pal :angry: 
I would put any of my brews up against your any day. NC or other.


----------



## SJW

> Nice attitude to no-chillers there, Dazza.


Who is this Dazza guy :blink:


----------



## Stuster

Zizzle said:


> I suspect you are wasting your time there Stuster.
> 
> I think he applies this philosophy to himself:



True. I shall resist in future.


----------



## Darren

Stuster said:


> Nice attitude to no-chillers there, Dazza.
> A very important role for competitions is in helping brewers identify problems with their beers. If the brewer is not sure what is wrong with their beer, this is a great way to get objective feedback on it. Do you have any evidence that the beers you picked as infected were no-chill beers?
> 
> 
> Stuster,
> 
> No evidence what so ever, just an observation that MANY think their beers are fine enough to enter in a comp. Chill or no chill doesnt matter if they are infected.
> 
> I'm not sure if you followed braufrau's links  , but the first one doesn't seem like a site that's dedicated to cure-all herbal nonsense to me. Here's another one, from here.
> So that's a US patent that shows that 1IBU inhibits botulism spore activity. Now, what evidence do you have that this is not true?




No didnt follow the links  . The patent clearly says inhibits botulism, surely doesnt say destroys or kills. I have absolutely no evidence and if that is evidence enough for you then you are a bigger fool than I took you for. I donot remember ever saying that hop oils could not inhibit CB growth. I do doubt how effective it would be after repeated exposure and adaptation :huh: 

Botulism is a very rare bacteria. If you guys wish to increase your chances of getting it, who am I to stop you.

Do any of you "no-chillers" have a valid reason as to why wort has been CHILLED for eons now and why suddenly because a couple of Aussiehomebrewers show that beer can be made without chilling, we should all adopt that as best practice?

cheers

Darren


----------



## blackbock

Darren said:


> Do any of you "no-chillers" have a valid reason as to why wort has been CHILLED for eons now and why suddenly because a couple of Aussiehomebrewers show that beer can be made without chilling, we should all adopt that as best practice?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Hi

I make no claims as to the safety or otherwise of the NC method, however it seems to me that there are several valid reasons why it is a good method:

1) You don't have to buy/make/store/clean a chiller.
2) You don't consume any additional water to chill
3) You can brew as often as you like, storing the wort without need to ferment immediately
4) Seems to follow the KISS principle.


----------



## Barge

Darren said:


> ... who am I to stop you.
> 
> ... we should all adopt that as best practice?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



You're the only one preaching to the 'heathens' Darren. I suggest you go comb one out as opposed to constantly monitoring a thread in which you have made your point (repeatedly) and have little further to add.


----------



## browndog

> Do any of you "no-chillers" have a valid reason as to why wort has been CHILLED for eons now and why suddenly because a couple of Aussiehomebrewers show that beer can be made without chilling, we should all adopt that as best practice?



Hi Darren,
Back before there was refridgeration, they would have been hard pressed to crash chill their wort hey, also with commercial breweries of today and days of yore, they brewed in volumes that left to cool on it's own, would take days to get down to room temp so from a commercial point of view you need to chill the wort ASAP. I don't think I have ever heard anyone spruiking NC as "best practice" however in these days of severe water shortages, I can forsee a day when it will become a neccessity. Better start practicing now !

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Darren

Browndog,

The used "steamships" to rapidly cool if it was too hot or snow 8).


Nice informative post Barge! Glad you could add to the discussion.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Barge

Darren said:


> Browndog,
> 
> The used "steamships" to rapidly cool if it was too hot or snow 8).



Better check the Ebay thread for a steamship then! Seriously Darren, If you act like a smartarse, calling people fools and treating us like arrant children, don't imagine you to expect much more of a response

HTFU :icon_cheers:


----------



## domonsura

browndog said:


> Hi Darren,
> Back before there was refridgeration, they would have been hard pressed to crash chill their wort hey, also with commercial breweries of today and days of yore, they brewed in volumes that left to cool on it's own, would take days to get down to room temp so from a commercial point of view you need to chill the wort ASAP. I don't think I have ever heard anyone spruiking NC as "best practice" however in these days of severe water shortages, I can forsee a day when it will become a neccessity. Better start practicing now !
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Technical infection discussions aside, when a time comes along that I can't scrape 150 litres of water together to move from one drum to another to do my chilling with (note I said *moving* not _using_), then society has collapsed, all rainfall has stopped and the end is nigh.

This constant reference towards water wastage is pure scaremongering BS perpetuated by those who can't be bothered getting a couple of water drums to supply their chiller, in doing so making a socially responsible decision to conserve water. If you're that serious about water conservation that you are willing to take any more risks with infection than your beer is already exposed to, you should have water tanks anyway - if only a couple of water drums for your brewing use! The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.
Despite my constant use of a chiller I haven't wasted a single litre of water chilling my beer for a couple of years now, and it annoys me more than a little when (some of) you NC guys constantly get on your high horses about chillers being a waste of water because in THIS brewery at least it's just not true. Neither the method or the equipment are inefficient in the slightest, it's the action of putting it straight down the drain that creates the inefficiency.

So lets be honest about the no chill method, even if water wastage was the original concern (which I seriously doubt), it's no longer got anything at all to do with conserving water, it's got to do with effort - and not having to make one.


And Barge, for someone who claims to boil in plastic, no chill and only achieve 60% efficiency, perhaps you need to practice a regime of a little less trolling and a little more time listening? Not sure exactly what your last couple of posts were trying to achieve other than to piss people off. <_< Surely that's not what you're about...


----------



## Gerard_M

Wow, 940 posts into this topic & it seems a few have missed the subject title.

If it suits you to use it, then do so.

If you don't like it, fine.

No Chill suits my present set-up, but if things were different who knows. I do know that getting things sorted a little earlier on brew day, lets me spend more time with my family, so that is a bonus.

I don't like Sushi resturants because I don't trust uncooked seafood, I am not about to look for a Sushi forum & bore the crap out of people that do happen to like eating their fish raw.

Cheers
Gerard


----------



## Barge

i'm about conveying the sense that if you don't like it, lump it...as Gerard more politely stated. i'm happy with my set-up and have had few questions over the years that weren't already answered by somebody else. you call it trolling...i call it taking in what others have said. my point to Darren is that he has said it many times, loud and clear and now it's time for him (and all those who don't NC) to butt out of THE USERS OF NO CHILL thread, FFS!


----------



## domonsura

Fcuk...getting a little territorial for a beer forum aren't we? It's called discussion Barge. OPEN discussion. Not childish your side vs my side, stay out of my clubhouse behaviour.
Even though I chill, if I want to read this thread in an effort to understand more about what makes the NC method appealing to so many, and see if there are any elements that I can add to MY knowledge base about beer, I will. If I want to point out that wasting water is a choice, not a necessity of the chill method, I will.

Please sling off at darren through PM if you must rather than subject us all to it. That was MY point.

Not every person reading this thread will be a NC'er or a potential convert. That doesn't mean we aren't interested about how it all works/doesn't work for our own information. That's the way this all works.


----------



## Barge

fair enough. 

and fwiw i agree about water wastage being a non-issue, although i'd need to buy a pump as well as a chiller.

you had something new to add in your post where darren continually pushes a holier than thou approach which deserves to be publicly commented on


----------



## browndog

> If you're that serious about water conservation that you are willing to take any more risks with infection than your beer is already exposed to, you should have water tanks anyway - if only a couple of water drums for your brewing use! The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.
> ]


All well and good if it rained enough to fill them. I don't know what the water restrictions are like in Adelaide, but here in SE QLD they are very tight and getting worse and FWIW I would be more than happy to use a chiller, if there were any advantages to me.

cheers 

Browndog


----------



## Screwtop

At the risk of throwing myself under the bus, and to draw this discussion off on a tangent but still on topic.

Disclaimer: I am a sometimes no chiller

When it comes to plastics, I found that the blue so called food grade was safe for storage of drinking water (hot and cold), the white was safe drinking water contact and cold only. Went to Clark Rubber looking for hose and was told if your caravan water hose is white it's fine for drinking water but if the water is going to be sitting in the hose for days in the sun, you should use the blue hose. Sceptic that I am, checked the labels on the hose reels, "he was right".

Naturally this leads to more questions. Lets not continue with the botulism thing, think we have enough proof that it's rare but well may occur given the miriad of different processes used in the home brewing situation. If all home brewers used a strict process of suitable sanitisation and PH control the risk still would only be minimised, not eliminated. It appears so far that some of the infections have not resulted in sickness as some have fermented the wort and drunk the beer. Don't know if botulism infection would actually be noticeable in any case, wild yeast infections are most likely to be responsible for producing gas and swelling the cubes.

What I want to know is: If you have had a cube swell, or even fail/crack/split which type of cube was it, white or blue? (Not a question for the commercial producers just those of us using the store bought cubes/jerrys)


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Screwtop said:


> At the risk of throwing myself under the bus, and to draw this discussion off on a tangent but still on topic.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am a sometimes no chiller
> 
> 
> What I want to know is: If you have had a cube swell, or even fail/crack/split which type of cube was it, white or blue? (Not a question for the commercial producers just those of us using the store bought cubes/jerrys)




Disclaimer: I have never no chilled in a jerry, I have put hot wort in my fermenter and put in the fridge o/night to pitch first thing next morn.....(it worked) 


I've looked in here a few times and have given it some consideration and thought that it might be a way to give a few locals who wil never change to AG a decent beer to take home and ferment out ... 

Screwy this is an interesting question as to witch jerry ?? Look forward to seeing the results that come in... 

cheers


----------



## yardy

FNQ Bunyip said:


> Disclaimer: I have never no chilled in a jerry, *I have put hot wort in my fermenter and put in the fridge o/night to pitch first thing next morn.....(it worked)*



FNQ,

interested to know how you sealed the fermenter from nasties whilst in the fridge, wouldn't using an airlock just draw the water into the wort as it cooled ?

Cheers


----------



## geoffi

Screwtop said:


> When it comes to plastics, I found that the blue so called food grade was safe for storage of drinking water (hot and cold), the white was safe drinking water contact and cold only.



Ever seen a commercial wort kits sold in a blue cube? Are they breaking the law or something?


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

yardy said:


> FNQ,
> 
> interested to know how you sealed the fermenter from nasties whilst in the fridge, wouldn't using an airlock just draw the water into the wort as it cooled ?
> 
> Cheers




Hey Yardy, Well it might not be the best method , it did lower the level in the air lock but not all the way .. I spray no rince all over the place .. wipe out my brewing fridge and my brew box with no rince every time I open the doors. spray a bit more around , all over the fermenter , every where .. I use way too much of the stuff but in this enviroment you need to be careful.. 

I've read that people have bought a liter of Phos acid and it lasts them years , I just bought my second Lt this year.. Ha ha but its cheep insurance... 


Cheers


----------



## browndog

I rack straight from the kettle into the fermenter and let it cool overnight then chuck it in the fridge in the morning and pitch that afternoon. I've done 60 or so NCs now and never had a problem. I don't have an airlock though, just a thermowell.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## troywhite

yardy said:


> interested to know how you sealed the fermenter from nasties whilst in the fridge, wouldn't using an airlock just draw the water into the wort as it cooled ?



I no chill straight into the fermenter.

My method for stopping nasties entering the airlock hole is to totally soak a small piece of cloth in prox and then just place it over the hole. Air will naturally be sucked in overnight but at least it has to work it's way through the prox.

Has been working fine for me like this for all my brews.


----------



## troywhite

Geoffi said:


> Ever seen a commercial wort kits sold in a blue cube? Are they breaking the law or something?



Maybe they chill the wort down to room temp (or even lower) before putting it into the cube?


----------



## Stuster

troywhite said:


> Maybe they chill the wort down to room temp (or even lower) before putting it into the cube?



It's hot when it's cubed by the commercial brewers. There would be far too many issues with contamination if the wort was cooled first.


----------



## SJW

Sorry about arking up with my pervious post.



> What I want to know is: If you have had a cube swell, or even fail/crack/split which type of cube was it, white or blue? (Not a question for the commercial producers just those of us using the store bought cubes/jerrys)



Mine was a white one but it has the triangle 2 on it. I put my first NC infection down to 2 things. 
1- The wort was in the kettle for too long after the boil, approx 30min,
2- The cube then went straight in the pool and crash chilled.

In over 30 NC's now I would say that its not best practice but its best FOR ME. Talking to MHB yesterday and he said that in the 100's of ESB fresh wort packs he has sold only one or two have swelled.
So I think before anyone gets on this thread and bangs on about something they have not had a go at, they should have a go.

Steve


----------



## warrenlw63

SJW said:


> So I think before anyone gets on this thread and bangs on about something they have not had a go at, they should have a go.
> 
> Steve



Couldn't have put it better Steve. Let the brewer who chills his/her wort in the normal manner and has had no infections whatsoever cast the first stone.  

Provided the NC cubes are treated in the way manner as say a regular fermenter in terms of cleaning and sanitation I can't see where the problem lies.

Warren -


----------



## deebee

SJW said:


> Your drawing a long bow there pal :angry:
> I would put any of my brews up against your any day. NC or other.




Not sure how you took offence at my thread. So relax my friend: I am sure your beers are fantastic and genitals of gigantic proportions.

I was just echoing the comment that infections very often go unnoticed in amateur brewed beer but suggesting that it is probably more common in those who have brewed less often. I learned to recognise infected beers by making a few, but haven't had one for a while and none since I starting NCing. 

I am always suspicious of posts, usually supporting a less-than-disciplined brewing technique, along the lines of "Bin doin' this for 15 years and never ever had a single infection..." I don't recognise that flavour of posting amongst the no chillers who all seem pretty dedicated to the craft and genuinely want to investigate this technique of brewing.

Although he dips into sarcasm and disdain too much, unwittingly paints himself as a bit of a wally and generally treats this as sport, Darren's comments are what have driven this debate and forced the no chillers to really check out whether no chilling is legit. So good on him.


DB


----------



## SJW

Sorry Deebee, I made a mistake that has been fixed. It was not your post but Darrens. Ross PM'ed be too to ask what I was doing. Sorry mate. All my confusion is directed at Darren.
Boy don't I feel like a DICK

Steve


----------



## PostModern

Darren said:


> What you really have missed about my original comments on the no-chill method was that SPOILAGE organisms (including C. botulinum) were more likely to be a problem. I notice the growing number of posters in the "Disasters" thread is growing. I believe I predicted that.  I suspect it will continue to grow
> 
> My other concern was that some guys were going for extended storage of NC beer. Again this is frought with problems.



All of those "disasters" are new no chillers doing the wrong thing. People opening the cube after it's chilled to take a gravity reading, people leaving headspace and not inverting the cube to pasteurise the lid and top of the cube, people chucking the cube into a pool so that pasteurisation temps are not maintained for long enough...

Botulism Spores may well survive at up to 130C so the no chill method is not effective at destroying them in the cube. But my boil never goes above about 105C in the kettle. Surely that's a more likely place to harbour botulism? I never sanitise my kettle, but I do sanitise my cubes with three different chemicals over time, as well as 90C wort for more than an hour. Is it time to start the no kettle method? Only wort boiled in a pressure vessel is safe? Sanitise your kettles before and after use?


----------



## deebee

SJW said:


> Sorry Deebee, I made a mistake that has been fixed. It was not your post but Darrens. Ross PM'ed be too to ask what I was doing. Sorry mate. All my confusion is directed at Darren.
> Boy don't I feel like a DICK
> 
> Steve




No offence taken. And now I feel like a bit of a dick and hope my comeback doesn't seem to dinkum. Should have recognised that it was more likely directed at Darren.

cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## warrenlw63

deebee said:


> No offence taken. And now I feel like a bit of a dick and hope my comeback doesn't seem to dinkum. Should have recognised that it was more likely directed at Darren.
> 
> cheers :icon_cheers:



Possible appeasement was reached with the mere mention of gigantic genitals deebee... it's a universal currency. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## bigfridge

SJW said:


> Talking to MHB yesterday and he said that in the 100's of ESB fresh wort packs he has sold only one or two have swelled.
> 
> Steve



Hi Steve,

You just need to be a little careful with your wording there otherwise you will give the wrong impression.

Mark has sold thousands of fresh wort packs and none of them have had an infection problem. These are commercially produced and are packaged using the same sterile techniques used by jam and baked bean makers.

At the recent HAG brewday, I believe that a few of the cubes that they filled became infected but they were not packaged using the same materials and processes that a commercial Wort Pack brewer would use. When dealing with brewers wort the margin for error is small and obviously the steps taken to clean the cubes and re-fill them exceeded that margin on the few that became infected.

Thanks
Dave


----------



## warrenlw63

bigfridge said:


> Mark has sold thousands of fresh wort packs and none of them have had an infection problem. These are commercially produced and are packaged using the same sterile techniques used by jam and baked bean makers.



Hey Dave would you be divulging any trade secrets by giving more details here? I'm sure there'd be a lot of people who'd really love more insight on the methods and processes that the commercial fresh wort kit producers are using. Be pretty interesting stuff.  

Warren -


----------



## yardy

FNQ Bunyip said:


> Hey Yardy, Well it might not be the best method , it did lower the level in the air lock but not all the way .. I spray no rince all over the place .. wipe out my brewing fridge and my brew box with no rince every time I open the doors. spray a bit more around , all over the fermenter , every where .. I use way too much of the stuff but in this enviroment you need to be careful..
> 
> I've read that people have bought a liter of Phos acid and it lasts them years , I just bought my second Lt this year.. Ha ha but its cheep insurance...
> 
> 
> Cheers



whatever works for you FNQ, i get a bit liberal with the Betadine at times.

Cheers




browndog said:


> I rack straight from the kettle into the fermenter and let it cool overnight then chuck it in the fridge in the morning and pitch that afternoon. I've done 60 or so NCs now and never had a problem. I don't have an airlock though, just a thermowell.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Browny,

i've thought of doing this but i like to aerate the wort by the transfer to the bucket.

Cheers




troywhite said:


> I no chill straight into the fermenter.
> 
> My method for stopping nasties entering the airlock hole is to totally soak a small piece of cloth in prox and then just place it over the hole. Air will naturally be sucked in overnight but at least it has to work it's way through the prox.
> 
> Has been working fine for me like this for all my brews.



Similar to the reply to Browny, how do you aerate the wort for pitching troy ?

Cheers


----------



## bigfridge

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Dave would you be divulging any trade secrets by giving more details here? I'm sure there'd be a lot of people who'd really love more insight on the methods and processes that the commercial fresh wort kit producers are using. Be pretty interesting stuff.
> 
> Warren -



Hi Warren,

No big secrets - you could just ask your grandma how she used to make jam  

As in jam, you need to use heat to sterilise the container. This means that the cube must be filled while the wort is near boiling point and that all surfaces of the cube must be immersed so that the heat can do its job.

This is simply done by laying the cube on its side for the required time to fully heat the cube lid and handle, before standing it up again to do the side that was uppermost.

Guys who are doing any cooling (either in the boiler or by dumping it in the swimming pool) are not using a 'no-chill' method - they are just making food for the wild yeast and bacteria with the obvious results.

Dave


----------



## warrenlw63

Agreed!

I remember your post some time ago about laying the cube on its side and follow this procedure (many thanks). I thought for a minute that you blokes may have had some kind of whizz bang method of pasteurizing the wort once in the cubes.

Looks like I'm not missing out on anything here. :lol: 


(Note I might put some wax paper and a rubber band on top of my cube instead of a lid. My Nanna would approve)  

Warren -


----------



## SJW

> Hi Steve,
> 
> You just need to be a little careful with your wording there otherwise you will give the wrong impression.



Thanks Dave, 
I guess the point I was making is that even for the big boys this method is not fool proof for one reason or another.
I would still like all to come clean on the Disasters thread as this might help people be more aware of just how carfull we need to be using this method. Me included.  

Steve


----------



## therook

yardy said:


> whatever works for you FNQ, i get a bit liberal with the Betadine at times.
> 
> Cheers
> Browny,
> 
> i've thought of doing this but i like to aerate the wort by the transfer to the bucket.
> 
> Cheers
> Similar to the reply to Browny, how do you aerate the wort for pitching troy ?
> 
> Cheers



I would say he is using an airstone and pump.

Rook


----------



## Steve

yardy said:


> whatever works for you FNQ, i get a bit liberal with the Betadine at times.
> 
> Cheers
> Browny,
> 
> i've thought of doing this but i like to aerate the wort by the transfer to the bucket.
> 
> Cheers
> Similar to the reply to Browny, how do you aerate the wort for pitching troy ?
> 
> Cheers



Yardy - I also put the hot wort straight into fermenter, chill overnight and pitch the next morning. I asked the same question as I thought you would have to pour that into another fermenter and aerate it. I got told that with dry yeast (I dont use liquid yeast) you dont need to aerate the wort. I re-hydrate the yeast in the morning, pitch and its always taken off by the end of the day. No problems.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## PostModern

bigfridge said:


> Mark has sold thousands of fresh wort packs and none of them have had an infection problem.






SJW said:


> I guess the point I was making is that even for the big boys this method is not fool proof for one reason or another.



I think you'll find it is foolproof for the big boys. Scotty from NNL introduced the practice to the IBUs (inc myself). I follow the "foolproof" method (with the exception that I reuse my cubes) and have not had one balloon yet. You have to follow the method to the letter or it may not work, as I said in my last and many other posts. I'm actually thinking of putting a thermometer into my kettle just so I can make sure I don't leave the whirlpool settling phase too long.


----------



## SJW

Hey PM, with my latest balls up'S, I am looking to buy another "cube" I had a look today at Supercheap and they had Willow "BLUE" Jerry cans but I could not find the magic triangle 2 or HDPE on it anywhere. Does anyone have it on good authority that Blue is best or equal too?


----------



## apd

SJW said:


> Hey PM, with my latest balls up'S, I am looking to buy another "cube" I had a look today at Supercheap and they had Willow "BLUE" Jerry cans but I could not find the magic triangle 2 or HDPE on it anywhere. Does anyone have it on good authority that Blue is best or equal too?



I'd be careful about assuming anything regarding plastic. If it isn't marked as food grade, don't assume it is.

Here are a couple of links regarding food grade plastics:

Link One (note the part that says not all HDPE is food grade and PP is better at higher temps).

Link Two

Andrew


----------



## SJW

I just e-mailed Willows customer suport and they assure me that the Blue Willow 20 litre Jerry cans are all HDPE. Although I don't like to assume anything either.

Steve


----------



## rehnton

SJW said:


> Hey PM, with my latest balls up'S, I am looking to buy another "cube" I had a look today at Supercheap and they had Willow "BLUE" Jerry cans but I could not find the magic triangle 2 or HDPE on it anywhere. Does anyone have it on good authority that Blue is best or equal too?



Ive been using the 'BLue' jerries for the last 9 months. Havent had a dodgy batch yet but these jerries do stain easily. With 4 batches or so they are stained awith nasty brown which refuses to budge even after bleach or one shoot. Im yet to try napisan but on past experience i doubt that it will shift this staining.

all-in-all the blue jerries are cheap and i havent had any problems besides the stain


----------



## SJW

> Ive been using the 'BLue' jerries for the last 9 months. Havent had a dodgy batch yet but these jerries do stain easily. With 4 batches or so they are stained awith nasty brown which refuses to budge even after bleach or one shoot. Im yet to try napisan but on past experience i doubt that it will shift this staining.
> 
> all-in-all the blue jerries are cheap and i havent had any problems besides the stain



Try Sodium Percarb with hot water or if all else fails PSR will do the job.

Steve


----------



## bigfridge

SJW said:


> Thanks Dave,
> I guess the point I was making is that even for the big boys this method is not fool proof for one reason or another.
> I would still like all to come clean on the Disasters thread as this might help people be more aware of just how carfull we need to be using this method. Me included.
> 
> Steve



Hi Steve,

To back up PoMo's comment - it does work for the 'big boys'.

The HAG brewday was not done by one of the 'big boys' as the standard procedure wasn't fully followed. If it had been then there would have been the expected zero infection rate. This is not something that relies on chance or bad luck - there is centuries of science behind it.

One key aspect of the HAG day that does not comply with a brewery's standard procedure is that there is a lot of beer drunk during the brewing process  and plenty of distractions during packaging that can allow sub-standard practices to occur.

Compare a HAG day with a sober, single brewer concentrating on brewing and packaging a batch.

Dave


----------



## troywhite

yardy said:


> Similar to the reply to Browny, how do you aerate the wort for pitching troy ?



I simply don't aerate. Yup, I know it may sound strange but I don't bother. My pitched yeast has always started vigorously and I've always ended up with an FG where either I'd expect it or the recipe I was following estimated it would be.

Troy

Edit: You may read an earlier post of mine somewhere around the forum where I used to strain post-boil into the fermenter. That obviously introduced lots of O2 but it was also introducing HSA so I've ceased that practice and use a kettle side strainer built in and gently add the wort to the fermenter.


----------



## PostModern

SJW said:


> Hey PM, with my latest balls up'S, I am looking to buy another "cube" I had a look today at Supercheap and they had Willow "BLUE" Jerry cans but I could not find the magic triangle 2 or HDPE on it anywhere. Does anyone have it on good authority that Blue is best or equal too?



I don't know anything about the blue plastic. I use these (well the molding on the top is a little different in mine):
http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=7591

They are about $6 or $7 each. So far, I've put about 5 brews through each of my cubes, so they work out pretty cheap, but who's counting anyway?  I've also used cubes I bought originally filled with NNL and ESB wort kits. Never had a drama re-using those guy's packs, either, just clean when emptied and sanitise before use.


----------



## Stuster

What yeast(s) do you use, Troy?


----------



## Darren

rehnton said:


> Ive been using the 'BLue' jerries for the last 9 months. Havent had a dodgy batch yet but these jerries do stain easily. With 4 batches or so they are stained awith nasty brown which refuses to budge even after bleach or one shoot. Im yet to try napisan but on past experience i doubt that it will shift this staining.
> 
> all-in-all the blue jerries are cheap and i havent had any problems besides the stain




Hey guys,

If it not explicitely marked as food grade then it isn't food grade. Just because you cant taste it doesnt mean that it is not leaching toxins into your beer.

If you call the manufacturer and they say "Hell yeah, it food grade" ask them to supply you with written confirmation that they have advised you that it will be fine at boiling temp wort. If they can't or won't do that then dont use it. Cheap is cheap for a reason.

Why would they care if it could cause you health problems. After all they just need to sell product. (Chances are they are just the equivalent of the supermarket chick who just work there anyhow with absolutely no knowledge of plastics).

cheers

Darren ( who loves to keep this thread alive  )


----------



## Darren

SJW said:


> I just e-mailed Willows customer suport and they assure me that the Blue Willow 20 litre Jerry cans are all HDPE. Although I don't like to assume anything either.
> 
> Steve




Hey guys,

If it not explicitely marked as food grade then it isn't food grade. Just because you cant taste it doesnt mean that it is not leaching toxins into your beer.

If you call the manufacturer and they say "Hell yeah, its food grade" ask them to supply you with written confirmation on their letterhead that they have advised you that it will be fine at boiling temp wort. If they can't or won't do that then dont use it. Cheap is cheap for a reason. This also goes for people who say they have confirmation from manufacturers on internet threads <_< 

Why would they care if it could cause you health problems. Chances are they have absolutely no knowledge of plastics and plastic regulation but need to justify their use of less than satisfactory methodology  

cheers

Darren


----------



## SJW

> Darren ( who loves to keep this thread alive )



Go Dazza  



> Hi Steve,
> 
> To back up PoMo's comment - it does work for the 'big boys'.
> 
> The HAG brewday was not done by one of the 'big boys' as the standard procedure wasn't fully followed. If it had been then there would have been the expected zero infection rate. This is not something that relies on chance or bad luck - there is centuries of science behind it.
> 
> One key aspect of the HAG day that does not comply with a brewery's standard procedure is that there is a lot of beer drunk during the brewing process and plenty of distractions during packaging that can allow sub-standard practices to occur.
> 
> Compare a HAG day with a sober, single brewer concentrating on brewing and packaging a batch.
> 
> Dave



I was not flaming u guys or the big boys. Thats why I specifically did not make mention of any HAG day brew infecting. I was just quoting what Mark told me about his ESB fresh wort packs.
But I do agree with you and I understand that my 2 infections were due to bad QC. 
That would be another good reason not to drink on a brew day!  

Steve


----------



## troywhite

Stuster said:


> What yeast(s) do you use, Troy?



Various. Both dried and Wyeast Activators.

So far so good with SAFAle US-05, Wyeast 3638, Ross's Wheat Yeast, Deliverance (WA HBS) Ale Yeast and a SAF Lager yeast.

I've only had one go a bit "funny" but I think that was due to the fact that I pitched a Wyeast 3068 into a too hot wort and sustained the temp at about 22 which in hindsight was probaby too high for that yeast. Still trying to work that one out.


----------



## Barge

troywhite said:


> Various. Both dried and Wyeast Activators.
> 
> So far so good with SAFAle US-05, Wyeast 3638, Ross's Wheat Yeast, Deliverance (WA HBS) Ale Yeast and a SAF Lager yeast.



Do you pitch a starter? It's my understanding that a well aerated starter gives the yeasties all the O2 they need to reproduce. Since they reproduce anaerobically to produce EtOH, it doesn't matter that the wort is unaerated.


----------



## Screwtop

Darren said:


> Darren ( who loves to keep this thread alive )




Hey Darren, not trying to drag you off topic (much). Do you drive a car? Leave it parked in the sun then get in and drive home.?

How about the gaseous cocktail inside the car after being parked in the sun, the VOC's and acidic gasses given off by vinyl heated by sunlight, do those gasses kill botulism and other nasty bacteria, hope so cos I know you would then feel much safer driving home in your car. :lol:


----------



## Darren

Screwtop said:


> Hey Darren, not trying to drag you off topic (much). Do you drive a car? Leave it parked in the sun then get in and drive home.?
> 
> How about the gaseous cocktail inside the car after being parked in the sun, the VOC's and acidic gasses given off by vinyl heated by sunlight, do those gasses kill botulism and other nasty bacteria, hope so cos I know you would then feel much safer driving home in your car. :lol:




Hey Screwtop,

I do drive a car yes. Lucky for me it is a 1985 Landcruiser made of METAL (no vinyl) so toxic gas given off would not be a problem. 


Consumption of leached plasticisers is a real problem though.

BTW, You are an idiot with nothing to contribute to this thread but to diss me. Perhaps you have consumed too much blue cube plastic  

For those of you who continually miss the actual point of my comments...

I think that the idea of No-chilling is fine (so long as it is food grade containers), it is the storage of the NC wort that is likely to cause problems with beer spoilage organisms.  

cheers

Darren


----------



## Barge

Darren said:


> I think that the idea of No-chilling is fine (so long as it is food grade containers), it is the storage of the NC wort that is likely to cause problems with beer spoilage organisms.



You've made your point Darren and unless you've got any other fabulous insights, then 



> You are an idiot with nothing to contribute to this thread


----------



## Stuster

Darren said:


> I think that the idea of No-chilling is fine (so long as it is food grade containers), it is the storage of the NC wort that is likely to cause problems with beer spoilage organisms.



OMFG.






Ok, so for the benefit of us fools, what length of storage time would you consider sensible and why?


----------



## Darren

Coupla days at the most. The more lag time between reaching pitching temp and pitching yeast the better you sanitation needs to be.

cheers

Darren


----------



## SJW

> How about the gaseous cocktail inside the car after being parked in the sun, the VOC's and acidic gasses given off by vinyl heated by sunlight, do those gasses kill botulism and other nasty bacteria, hope so cos I know you would then feel much safer driving home in your car.



Oh Screwtop, are u being facetious? <_< 

I love this Darren bloke, he knows how to spark up a thread  

Steve


----------



## troydo

in all honesty i hadnt really considered keeping the wort in the cube for more than a few days, why would you? it only takes 5 mins to pitch.. maybe 10 mins to steralise..


----------



## NickB

Hey Troydo. 

Not sure about others, but for me, keeping a cube of wort for an extended period is really all about time.

Firstly, I don't get huge chunks of time to brew, so brewing a batch or 4 up on my days off, and storing the cubes allows me to have a ready supply of wort to ferment, even when I have extended periods when brewing is just not possible.

And secondly, I only have very average temperature control (ie: chiller box + freezer packs), so can really only ferment one batch at a time (two at a stretch).

Personally, I have yet to experience any problems with storing these full cubes for up to three months. It's all dependent on your sanitation etc though.

Cheers


----------



## SJW

> in all honesty i hadnt really considered keeping the wort in the cube for more than a few days, why would you? it only takes 5 mins to pitch.. maybe 10 mins to steralise..



For me its not the time it takes to SANATISE and pitch, but the time it takes to set up the brewery, brew and clean up, I really like to do two brews in the one hit. Therefore I dont want to take the time to chill. I would rather just get 2 down, clean up and I can pitch at a later date. 

STEVE


----------



## troydo

fair points

just as asside i do "no chill" i usually brew on saturday and pitch sunday sometime or monday afternoon


----------



## chovain

This isn't entirely on topic, but NickB's comment about batching up brews and fermenting one at a time has got me thinking.

I'm personally happy using my plate chiller, and want to continue using it (I'm not trying to reignite the chill/no-chill debate here). Has anyone had any success carefully transferring _cold_ wort into well sanitised cubes for medium-term (say a week or two) storage? Or is that just not going to work?

Since there are no nasties in the hot wort, the cold wort that comes out the cold-end of my well sanitised, or even sterilised chiller should be clean too, right? If I were to keep the system closed during transfer (in through a keg-like post, air out through an air-lock or valve of some sort, cube initially filled with co2), what are my chances of avoiding infection?


----------



## Stuster

Mark Chovain said:


> This isn't entirely on topic, but NickB's comment about batching up brews and fermenting one at a time has got me thinking.
> 
> I'm personally happy using my plate chiller, and want to continue using it (I'm not trying to reignite the chill/no-chill debate here). Has anyone had any success carefully transferring _cold_ wort into well sanitised cubes for medium-term (say a week or two) storage? Or is that just not going to work?
> 
> Since there are no nasties in the hot wort, the cold wort that comes out the cold-end of my well sanitised, or even sterilised chiller should be clean too, right? If I were to keep the system closed during transfer (in through a keg-like post, air out through an air-lock or valve of some sort, cube initially filled with co2), what are my chances of avoiding infection?



I'd say very low, Mark. I'd be surprised if this worked unless you can make it a completely air-free transfer. There are plenty of bacteria and fungus in the air to contaminate that cold wort unless you do. With no heat to kill them, and no yeast to out-compete them, I'd say they'll have a party on your wort in no time.


----------



## NickB

I would suggest - and I'm no expert by any means - that it should work. Assuming of course, that the cube is completely clean and sanitized etc and that no wild yeast can get in. I guess the storability should be the same as a NC batch, assuming you get all the oxygen out etc, but your sanitation techniques would have to be really good, as you're not getting the benefit of the 90C temperatures in the cube to kill the nasties.

My 2c anyhow!

Cheers


----------



## chovain

Stuster said:


> I'd say very low, Mark. I'd be surprised if this worked unless you can make it a completely air-free transfer. There are plenty of bacteria and fungus in the air to contaminate that cold wort unless you do. With no heat to kill them, and no yeast to out-compete them, I'd say they'll have a party on your wort in no time.


Maybe this would be a good chance for me split myself between chill and NC. Two batches in a day; one chilled to fermenter, the other one NCed to be fermented after the first... Might make for a good experiment, too!


----------



## crozdog

Darren said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> If it not explicitely marked as food grade then it isn't food grade. Just because you cant taste it doesnt mean that it is not leaching toxins into your beer.
> 
> If you call the manufacturer and they say "Hell yeah, it food grade" ask them to supply you with written confirmation that they have advised you that it will be fine at boiling temp wort. If they can't or won't do that then dont use it. Cheap is cheap for a reason.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren ( who loves to keep this thread alive  )



Darren,
If you want to find out more about the effects of plastic and chemicals leaching into the environment read "The Feminization of Nature" by by Deborah Cadbury. It is scary stuff.

So do you call tupperware / decor / ikea / kmart / target etc etc to ask them if their plastic container is "food grade" before you chuck em into the microwave?? I think not. If not why not? It is the same situation.

I recognise the points you make about risk of botulism & now leaching plasticizers. It is important that we research the pros/cons for all activities, not just blindly following. I have done that and accept that by subjecting my (non vendor confirmed) food grade containers to a solid sanitising regime, I believe that the chance of contamination by botulism is low. Likewise I am not concerned about leaching plasticisers from the cubes I use (but not others) & that this is another risk I am prepared to accept - like running for the bus in the morning  . If anyone doesn't or can't accept those risks, that is their right; they just need to adjust their practices to not use the no chill method. Simple.

Now the same debate has been resoundingly thrashed out yet again, with still no resolution, I propose that everyone retreats to their brewshed use which ever chill/nochill technique you are prepared to accept the risks of and let this thread's focus return to the core of the topic title. If I recall correctly this thread was separated from the original to test the theory - hence the title. The original thread was for philosophical discussion & this thread was for those who were putting words into practice. Lets return to that practice can we, & make all comments re botulism, plasticisers, race, religion or politics in the original thread :lol: h34r: ?

Beers
Crozdog


----------



## Stuster

Mark Chovain said:


> Maybe this would be a good chance for me split myself between chill and NC. Two batches in a day; one chilled to fermenter, the other one NCed to be fermented after the first... Might make for a good experiment, too!



I've been meaning to do this for ages, but making a double batch and splitting it this way. Then using some dry yeast on both of them to eliminate another variable. One day I'll get round to it, but I hate to disturb the spiders in my chiller.


----------



## PostModern

Mark Chovain said:


> This isn't entirely on topic, but NickB's comment about batching up brews and fermenting one at a time has got me thinking.
> 
> I'm personally happy using my plate chiller, and want to continue using it (I'm not trying to reignite the chill/no-chill debate here). Has anyone had any success carefully transferring _cold_ wort into well sanitised cubes for medium-term (say a week or two) storage? Or is that just not going to work?
> 
> Since there are no nasties in the hot wort, the cold wort that comes out the cold-end of my well sanitised, or even sterilised chiller should be clean too, right? If I were to keep the system closed during transfer (in through a keg-like post, air out through an air-lock or valve of some sort, cube initially filled with co2), what are my chances of avoiding infection?



I'd say you have bugger all chance of that working. But by all means try.



Mark Chovain said:


> Maybe this would be a good chance for me split myself between chill and NC. Two batches in a day; one chilled to fermenter, the other one NCed to be fermented after the first... Might make for a good experiment, too!



The other way round probably works better in terms of time. You have your second mash going while the first boil is on, then rack the first into to a NC cube. I suppose it'd make little difference if you had a CFC, but if you had an immersion chiller, your second batch would be "wasting time" in the mash tun while the second batch chilled.


----------



## drsmurto

crozdog said:


> Darren,
> 
> So do you call tupperware / decor / ikea / kmart / target etc etc to ask them if their plastic container is "food grade" before you chuck em into the microwave?? I think not. If not why not? It is the same situation.
> 
> Beers
> Crozdog



You shouldnt be microwaving food in plastic - man you boys are cowboys! h34r:


----------



## SJW

> I would suggest - and I'm no expert by any means - that it should work. Assuming of course, that the cube is completely clean and sanitized etc and that no wild yeast can get in. I guess the storability should be the same as a NC batch, assuming you get all the oxygen out etc, but your sanitation techniques would have to be really good, as you're not getting the benefit of the 90C temperatures in the cube to kill the nasties.




I think u just contradicted yourself here. You say that "it should work" then you say "your sanitation techniques would have to be really good, as you're not getting the benefit of the 90C temperatures in the cube to kill the nasties" 
I would guess that your chances would be very low. (Didnt someone already say this?)



> I'd say very low, Mark. I'd be surprised if this worked unless you can make it a completely air-free transfer. There are plenty of bacteria and fungus in the air to contaminate that cold wort unless you do. With no heat to kill them, and no yeast to out-compete them, I'd say they'll have a party on your wort in no time.


----------



## apd

crozdog said:


> So do you call tupperware / decor / ikea / kmart / target etc etc to ask them if their plastic container is "food grade" before you chuck em into the microwave?? I think not. If not why not? It is the same situation.



No, you don't call those companies. You would look on the bottom of the container for the "microwave safe" label. No label means it's not ok.



crozdog said:


> The original thread was for philosophical discussion & this thread was for those who were putting words into practice. Lets return to that practice can we, & make all comments re botulism, plasticisers, race, religion or politics in the original thread :lol: h34r: ?



I'd say discussing the materials used in an NC system is quite relevant to the practical side of things, so this thread is as good as any.

Andrew


----------



## NickB

SJW said:


> I think u just contradicted yourself here. You say that "it should work" then you say "your sanitation techniques would have to be really good, as you're not getting the benefit of the 90C temperatures in the cube to kill the nasties"
> I would guess that your chances would be very low. (Didnt someone already say this?)



What I was saying is that while you don't get the benefit of high temperature into the cube to doo the sanitizing, as long as you can exclude oxygen/air from the cube while you fill and store it, then it may just be OK. Anyone willing to do some experimenting? I would, but don't own a chiller!

Cheers

PS: I'm sure I didn't contradict myself, but maybe I did :lol:


----------



## drsmurto

apd said:


> No, you don't call those companies. You would look on the bottom of the container for the "microwave safe" label. No label means it's not ok.
> I'd say discussing the materials used in an NC system is quite relevant to the practical side of things, so this thread is as good as any.
> 
> Andrew



OT alert .......

FWIW and i think i may be inadvertently helping out Darren here but there is NO regulation on the term 'microwave safe'.

So i suspect the distinction between food grade and not is a grey line........


----------



## SJW

> PS: I'm sure I didn't contradict myself, but maybe I did



No probs. 
Theres no tension on this thread


----------



## chovain

SJW said:


> Theres no tension on this thread



I almost feel bad for asking the question here instead of in a new thread. Well, _almost_ .


----------



## browndog

Mark Chovain said:


> This isn't entirely on topic, but NickB's comment about batching up brews and fermenting one at a time has got me thinking.
> 
> I'm personally happy using my plate chiller, and want to continue using it (I'm not trying to reignite the chill/no-chill debate here). Has anyone had any success carefully transferring _cold_ wort into well sanitised cubes for medium-term (say a week or two) storage? Or is that just not going to work?
> 
> Since there are no nasties in the hot wort, the cold wort that comes out the cold-end of my well sanitised, or even sterilised chiller should be clean too, right? If I were to keep the system closed during transfer (in through a keg-like post, air out through an air-lock or valve of some sort, cube initially filled with co2), what are my chances of avoiding infection?



I would not try it unless you are brewing in a sterile surgical theatre, there is no way you can gaurantee you won't get any nasties in there during the transfer of the wort, end of story. Not worth risking 5hrs of loving toil for.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## NickB

SJW said:


> No probs.
> Theres no tension on this thread



LOL, indeed. I did have a smilie after my last comment though - can't help taking the piss out of myself sometimes..... Makes the time at work go just that much faster.

OK, so in summary, we'll all get fat from too much drinking, grow nice big boobs form the leaching plastic, and die happy and drunk! h34r:

Cheers! :beer:


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Is anyone aware of such passionate debates about no-chilling on other forums?

Is NC popular in any circles other than AHB ??

Cheers


----------



## SJW

> Is anyone aware of such passionate debates about no-chilling on other forums?
> 
> Is NC popular in any circles other than AHB ??
> 
> Cheers



I might throw it out on a UK site and see what they say. It may not even rate a response. :lol: 
It has to be the most passionate thread ever on AHB I bet!

Steve


----------



## SJW

One thing I thought of last night that may not be good practice.
Do u USERS OF THE NO CHILLER METHOD leave a tap in the bottom of the NC cube? As there is a fair bit of contraction or suction, what ever u want to call it, even though the cap may be up tight I bet there could be some contamination through the tap. As these things can drip/leak with no pressure just when fermenting.

Steve


----------



## Hutch

SJW said:


> One thing I thought of last night that may not be good practice.
> Do u USERS OF THE NO CHILLER METHOD leave a tap in the bottom of the NC cube? As there is a fair bit of contraction or suction, what ever u want to call it, even though the cap may be up tight I bet there could be some contamination through the tap. As these things can drip/leak with no pressure just when fermenting.
> 
> Steve


Very interesting question Steve. 
I've been considering this for some time, as I'd like to transfer from NC cube to the fermenter and leave behind as much break material as possible.Up-ending the cube into the fermenter just mixes the whole lot up, and there is usually quite a bit of solid crap sitting at the bottom of the cube.

I guess you'd have to ensure that the tap was thoroughly cleaned, and got the full dose of pasturisation time.
Might be an acceptable option when you are only considering no-chilling for the time required to cool the wort (up to a few days).
Anyone tried this?


----------



## ham2k

SJW said:


> One thing I thought of last night that may not be good practice.
> Do u USERS OF THE NO CHILLER METHOD leave a tap in the bottom of the NC cube? As there is a fair bit of contraction or suction, what ever u want to call it, even though the cap may be up tight I bet there could be some contamination through the tap. As these things can drip/leak with no pressure just when fermenting.
> 
> Steve



I have a pile of cubes from buying ND Fresh Wort kits. I drilled a hole and put a tap in one for lagering. 

When I did a brew recently it was the only clean container around. After transferring hot wort to the container, i had to squeeze some air out so the liquid was at the lid. 

Cube closed, i then rolled the container over to make sure the hot wort contacted all of the container including the handle. The plastic had become more malleable and during this process air had started to come in around the tap. There was no wort leaking but air was coming in. I then had to quickly scrub down and clean another cube and then transfer the wort into that. No infection in the end but what a drama. 

Lesson learnt: make sure the cube is as intact as possible because I don't think the plastic in the thread will hold its shape up against 90+ degrees, especially when the cube is often squeezed to expel air.

This is another episode in my 'comedy of errors' brewing


----------



## apd

DrSmurto said:


> OT alert .......
> 
> FWIW and i think i may be inadvertently helping out Darren here but there is NO regulation on the term 'microwave safe'.
> 
> So i suspect the distinction between food grade and not is a grey line........



How is this OT? Like I said, we're discussing the materials used in NC.

You've just confirmed my point - that there's confusion about what is food grade/microwave safe and unless something explicitly states it is ok for a specific purpose, I wouldn't be using it for that purpose.


----------



## troydo

i just leave the bung in there


----------



## Stuster

Usually no tap, although the few times I have no-chilled with a tap on the cube, I've noticed no difference at all. But basically, if you are planning on using a cube for no-chill, I think there's no real need for a tap.


----------



## SJW

> Usually no tap, although the few times I have no-chilled with a tap on the cube, I've noticed no difference at all. But basically, if you are planning on using a cube for no-chill, I think there's no real need for a tap.



Every NC I have done I have left the tap in, as there is a lot of crap left in the bottom of the cube once cool and by using the tap to transfer u can leave all the crap behind.
But in an effort to refine my NC methods I might try my next one with the bung in and pour the wort into the fermenter through a conical sieve.
I hate those crappy taps when they leak. I have had brand new ones that drip on the fermenter. But thats another thread.

Steve


----------



## PostModern

If you're buying a cube specially for the purpose, try and get a undrilled one. When I got mine, they only had "drilled and bunged" in stock, so I took them. No dramas yet, but it would obviously be better to get intact cubes.


----------



## Steve

Now i'll be paranoid transferring hot wort to my fermenter which has the tap in place :unsure:


----------



## warrenlw63

Each to their own chaps but I reckon putting a tap in a hot/soft cube is a recipe for disaster!

Be just too easy to knock one off accidentally.  

I just pour from the cube to the fermenter and damn the torpedoes. Bit of trub in there doesn't seem to cause too many issues.

If you're worried about the first few litres of wort splashing everywhere (as it does from a full cube) you can always get the blue plastic nozzles from Kmart. Just means lashing out $7 and buying the blue 5 litre Willow plastic jerrys which the nozzles come with.

With one of these nozzles screwed on I can just invert the whole cube and let it pour to the fermenter.

Warren -


----------



## SJW

Gee I like those 20 litre Blue Willow jerry cans. The tall ones not the square 25 litre ones. But they are not marked with HDPE or a triangle 2. Although they are advertised as for water. Just that the 25 litre ones are to big to fill up to the top for a cornie keg. The 20 litre one would be perfect. Does anyone use those 20 litre jerry Willow Jerry cans? I did e-mail Willow and asked the question and they said that they are made from HDPE but it would be too late to take action once i'm dead!

Steve


----------



## Uncle Fester

I replaced the tap in the cube with the original screw in bung. I am petrified that I may knock the tap while its and the cubes threads are hot and maybe a little soft. I have no intention of being able to contribute to the "biggest brewday Disasters" thread by emptying 20l of boiling wort all over the brewery floor (and maybe my feet) B) 


If I had a cube that was not drilled then I certainly wouldn't drill it if I was thinking of using it as a NC cube.


My 2c

Festa.


----------



## apd

warrenlw63 said:


> If you're worried about the first few litres of wort splashing everywhere ...



You can try pouring with the hole at the top instead of the bottom. It feels a bit awkward at first but once you get the hang of it there's no splashing at all. You need to tip it quickly so it doesn't dribble down the cube but if you get it down pat there's no glugging andno spills because it allows air in.


----------



## JoeG

I've done 9 No Chill into cubes this year - all with a tap in place, in fact I use a sediment reducer too. I find it very convenient to run it from the cube through some tubing with a siphon spray aerator and into the fermenter. I commonly dump a new brew onto the yeast cake, so I like to minimise the trub in the fermenter.

However - I lost my first cube to an infection just recently, and I lay the blame on a leaky tap. I usually only keep No-Chilled wort for a week or two maximum before pitching, but this one was going 8 weeks old (for various reasons). Nothing like watering the garden with 20 litres of lovingly crafted Octoberfest wort to teach you a lesson!

If I was ever going to keep a NC cube for longer than a week or two, I would now just use the bung.


----------



## troywhite

Steve said:


> Now i'll be paranoid transferring hot wort to my fermenter which has the tap in place :unsure:



That's what I do too Steve, but no dramas to date.

I must admit I have been cautious about the tap since doing NC as I use a converted fermenting pail as my HLT and I _have_ bumped that one loose before. 

As for air sucking in, I don't make my fermenter 100% airtight anyway, I just have a sanitised soaked cloth on top of the airlock hole and I'd say that will handle any incoming air adjustments before the tap will.


----------



## Zizzle

Has anyone No Chilled into a glass carboy? Would one stand up to the heat without cracking?


----------



## troydo

i dont like it.... 

when teh wort cools it will shrink somewhat.. that could cause some major pressure on glass...

then again i really have no idea...


----------



## drsmurto

My NC procedure

At end of boil, whirlpool
Put lid on kettle.
Walk away for 30 mins.
Take lid off and transfer wort to a fermenter.
Cover with gladwrap.
Come back the next day.
Transfer to another fermenter.
Ferment as normal.

Only done 5 so far and no infections. I have no intention of keeping wort more than 24 hours before pitching yeast. i could go into my scientific reasonings but think they have been covered at least once  I DO think i am losing some aroma doing this. But i dry hop in the keg if needed.

Am planning on chilling once i get my hands on either an immersion or CFWC. Any Adelaide NCers have one to sell?

EDIT - if it wasnt for NC i would still be using kits whilst trying to get a chiller. Like this BIAB caper, NC is a way of people getting into AG faster.


----------



## Kingy

SJW said:


> Gee I like those 20 litre Blue Willow jerry cans. The tall ones not the square 25 litre ones. But they are not marked with HDPE or a triangle 2. Although they are advertised as for water. Just that the 25 litre ones are to big to fill up to the top for a cornie keg. The 20 litre one would be perfect. Does anyone use those 20 litre jerry Willow Jerry cans? I did e-mail Willow and asked the question and they said that they are made from HDPE but it would be too late to take action once i'm dead!
> 
> Steve



i use these ones they actually hold just under 24 litres. There a perfect size and slim so ya can fit a few in the fridge no worrys.

cheers kingy

p.s Am i going to die from plastic problems or alcohol problems. Heck i could even fall out of a tree tomorrow. Thats life.
No chill all the way for me  gotta die of something. Untill someone dies from NC'ing Ill keep doin it.


----------



## geoffi

I've used cubes with both tap and bung with no dramas whatsoever.

I like the idea of a tap which you can use to empty the cube thus leaving the crap behind. Only drawback is that when I fill the fermenter I like to really give the wort a splash and even a shake to aerate.


----------



## SJW

> p.s Am i going to die from plastic problems or alcohol problems. Heck i could even fall out of a tree tomorrow. Thats life.
> No chill all the way for me gotta die of something. Untill someone dies from NC'ing Ill keep doin it.



I'm hearing ya  all the way!


----------



## browndog

Here is what I do, not a true NCer as I rack to the fermenter and pitch the next day, but my regime is at flame out wait till convection currents subside then add any steeping hops and whrilpool. I leave this for 10 mins or so then I chuck my unsterilised hop sock into the fermenter and filter out any trub that would otherwise find it's way into the fermenter. When it has finished draining and the sock is full of trub and wort, I hang it up so the sock is just clear and let it drain. Kind of like a reverse use for the hop sock!

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Screwtop

Darren said:


> Hey Screwtop,
> 
> BTW, You are an idiot with nothing to contribute to this thread but to diss me. Perhaps you have consumed too much blue cube plastic
> 
> For those of you who continually miss the actual point of my comments...




Don't any of you worry about my old sparring partner Darren Dnegative. He loves to keep the mass debate alive and never waivers in his rebuttal. I just love fishing, and he bites like a wahoo. He calls me an idiot (with a smilie), I take it as intended, it's great sport, and it makes people THINK? Ain't that your intent Dazza? 

Screwy


----------



## Darren

Screwtop,

If we didn't have open debate then we would never learn.

cheers

Darren


----------



## domonsura

aawwwwwwwwwwwww...look honey, the kids are playing nicely......


----------



## Uncle Fester

Not for long dad! h34r:


----------



## Darren

Zizzle said:


> Has anyone No Chilled into a glass carboy? Would one stand up to the heat without cracking?




Zizzle,

Instant crack soon as the wort hits it unless its pyrex.

cheers

Darren


----------



## SJW

Well I posted this question on a UK brew forum. Why the hell could't we have resolved this debate with two responses. And the odd thing is ........they make sense..........(sorry Ross and any other UK brothers out there. This is what they said.



> I don't think there's a lot to discuss really, I know lots of yanks can make an issue out of anything and discuss it at great length though, but to be fair we also have some very pragmatic brewers from the US here on our forum.
> 
> Not chilling a wort isn't something that would really bother me. As far as i'm concerned, with English malts the worst that can happen is the finished beer may be a little hazy and the risk of infection increases, we don't seem to have the issues with DMS that the US brewers rant on about.
> 
> On the other had, water is generally in abundance here, I have 3 chillers and have never spent any more that 25 on making one so there's no reason not to make one on the grounds of cost or water shortage. Personally I prefer to get a beer done and dusted asap so I would never not chill a wort, I don't really see the point. If I had no option though I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.





> I know it has been discussed at length on the brewing network forum. Dont think it has on here yet but it could be before my time!
> 
> It does seem a good idea if you cannot fit in a full brew day.
> Or you do not have space in fermenter's or only enough temperature control for one fermenter.
> 
> But for most it might only knock off 20-60 minutes of a brew day.
> So once you have got that far you may as well finish.



Such layed back, easy going reply's. Gee they must have it good in the UK, what do u think Ross?


----------



## homebrewworld.com

No , I just dont think they have a Darren :lol: 

Garry
HBW


----------



## slampt

Gents, 

I have been talking alot with Mr PistolPatch about BIAB.
I am keen as to try my first AG BIAB, I have all the kit bar a wort chiller, so the no chiller method is my only option (or is it?)
I have read a heap of posts but I was wondering if someone would mind taking the time to give me a run down on the best possible way to do this,
like a "no chiller method for dummies"? I have failed to find a thread that has a really good run down on what equipment I should have and how it should be done. Either that or my search strings are crap. 

This will be my first attempt at an AG so information would be greatly appreciated, ohh and thanks goes out to PistolPatch for his words of wisdom and assistance!

TIA
Joe


----------



## mika

Show up on the weekend Joe, we'll induct you.

Mika "the chiller"


----------



## deebee

Slampt said:


> I have read a heap of posts but I was wondering if someone would mind taking the time to give me a run down on the best possible way to do this,
> like a "no chiller method for dummies"? I have failed to find a thread that has a really good run down on what equipment I should have and how it should be done. Either that or my search strings are crap.



No chill brewing is just like other brewing except that you don't crash chill the wort after boiling. So, you mash, you boil, you run it into a sanitised plastic container and you let it cool in its own time. When you are ready, you pitch it into a sanitised fermenter with yeast. The only extra equipment you need is the plastic jerry or cube. If you don't have a plastic or vinyl tube to run hot wort in, then you need one of them. I also find a couple of oven mitts very handy.

As for a detailed discussion about how it is done, this is the original thread started by MAH last year http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=chiller

Things to avoid is covered here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=chiller

And this very thread you are reading is not a bad commentary, just a bit long. But if you are looking for someone to distill all this discussion and debate into some sort of consensus, that's a big ask. The easiest way to learn is to watch someone so maybe mika's offer is a good one. Good luck and happy no chilling.


DB


----------



## DaaB

Hi all, I thought you might be interested to see a 16th Century Wort chiller (no water required)












Not sure how clear the writing will come out but the cooler is described as a..._
large lead lined vessel resting on joists to give maximum air-cooling. The liquor remained here until it dropped to below blood temperature (possibly gauges by the use of a bare elbow). _


----------



## domonsura

Geez they were clever buggers 400 years ago weren't they? Cheers DAAB!


----------



## tangent

i think they were referred to as coolships. large flat open vessels that are designed to lose (I noticed the UK people can't spell LOSE properly either!) heat. Big natural chillers.


----------



## winkle

DaaB said:


> Hi all, I thought you might be interested to see a 16th Century Wort chiller (no water required)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how clear the writing will come out but the cooler is described as a..._
> large lead lined vessel resting on joists to give maximum air-cooling. The liquor remained here until it dropped to below blood temperature (possibly gauges by the use of a bare elbow). _



Mmmm, love that lead.


----------



## The King of Spain

Its a big thread, a very big thread, its a biiiiig threeeaaad (sang to Calton brewery tune)

So without reading it all, are there many people who like me have who have a rainwater tank and are able to chill without water wastage but choose to NC for practical reasons?

Is it worth going down this route to pitch at exact fermentation temps At present I cool down to 27C, but have to wait overnight if I want to pitch at my desired temps. I must confess to doing thi,s but my read of this (big) tread that Im not really NC- ing, and also risk of infection


----------



## deebee

The 1500s wort chiller is a beauty. Looks like it works by increasing the surface area from which heat is lost and surrounding the wort with heat-conducting lead. People probably didn't live long enough to suffer from lead poisoning back then.

The question is would it have any better cooling capacity than a jerry 160 x 320 x 460mm holding the thermal mass of 23 litres? I reckon my jerry is cutting edge 21st century wort chilling technology compared to that old beast.


----------



## Screwtop

DaaB said:


> The liquor remained here until it dropped to below blood temperature (possibly gauges by the use of a bare elbow). [/i]




Don't know about elbow, but the term "rule of thumb" is an old brewing term. Put the thumb in the wort, if it doesn't feel either warm or cold to the touch, it's the right temp to pitch yeast.


----------



## DaaB

Screwtop said:


> Don't know about elbow, but the term "rule of thumb" is an old brewing term. Put the thumb in the wort, if it doesn't feel either warm or cold to the touch, it's the right temp to pitch yeast.





I expect law was passed saying that people had to switch to using their elbows as too many people round here like to sit around with their thumbs up their arses


----------



## barls

DaaB said:


> I expect law was passed saying that people had to switch to using their elbows as too many people round here like to sit around with their thumbs up their arses


actually the rule of thumb goes back to when it was considered civilized to beat your wife so long as you didnt use anything wider than your thumb


----------



## Darren

DaaB said:


> Hi all, I thought you might be interested to see a 16th Century Wort chiller (no water required)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how clear the writing will come out but the cooler is described as a..._
> large lead lined vessel resting on joists to give maximum air-cooling. The liquor remained here until it dropped to below blood temperature (possibly gauges by the use of a bare elbow). _




Daab,

We must keep it in perspective though. Coolships were used prior to the availability of pressurised mains water . 

Since that time 99.9% of breweries have changed to counterflow cooling. Those that didn't have not survived 

The common theme?? Cooling. 

Rapid cooling, dates back to the early 1800's when they realised you were less likely to get sick with a chilled wort but also produced a more palatable beer everytime that everyone enjoyed.

Why worry about 100 or so litres of water to chill your average batch of beer (4 hours)? A single toilet flush uses at least 7 litres of water. 

cheers

Darren


----------



## Darren

DaaB said:


> I expect law was passed saying that people had to switch to using their elbows as too many people round here like to sit around with their thumbs up their arses




Nice 8th post mate,

I hope you go on the watch list for dickheads with little to offer in the way of meaningful debate.

cheers

Darren


----------



## DaaB

> Daab,
> 
> We must keep it in perspective though. Coolships were used prior to the availability of pressurised mains water .
> 
> Since that time 99.9% of breweries have changed to counterflow cooling. Those that didn't have not survived



their use was continued long after the introduction of mains water and besides, there were pumps available before the introduction of mains water (obviously) so a gravity water cooling system would have been perfectly achievable but coolships worked so why would they fix what aint broke. 

I'm not trying to make anyone switch to the no-chill method, just offering up information so people can make an informed choice.



> Nice 8th post mate,
> 
> I hope you go on the watch list for dickheads with little to offer in the way of meaningful debate.



sorry mate, I missed the part in the t and c's that said members should refrained from making the occasional topical joke although the occasional joke is probably more meaningful than openly insulting other forum users.

Cheers

D


----------



## Screwtop

Darren said:


> A single toilet flush uses at least 7 litres of water.



Don't start with the toilet humor Darren, your enough of a shit stirrer already.


----------



## Uncle Fester

Here's one for Darren....

Don't know enough about it to determine if plastic jerries have this plastic in them, but what about those who bottle into PET bottles?


Fester.

********* Heres the relating link *********** 


Linky


----------



## browndog

This thread is titled Users of the "no Chiller Method" How about we stick to that, this is not a "lets poke Darren with sticks" thread, it's getting very old. If you want to do that then create a new thread please and leave this to the No Chillers out there who want to discuss their method.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## PostModern

I agree and will start on the delete button. I don't even like this thread any more.

And Fester, that attempt was pretty lame. Even a no-chiller can see the difference in risk between putting boiling hot wort in plastic and finished beer. Darren has always said it is the risk of leeching plasticers AT TEMPERATURE that is the risk, which is pretty much common sense. Also common sense is that Food Grade HDPE uses citric acid as a plasticiser and is stable above 120C, so at worst you might get some citric acid into your wort.

Remember users and future users of no-chill, if it isn't food grade HDPE, it isn't suitable.


----------



## crozdog

NC scored another competition 1st place on the weekend when I took out 1st place for a belgian Blonde  :beer: 

Crozdog


----------



## kabooby

Not wanting to start another thread, or read through 70 odd pages of "no chill and chill" arguments  I thought I would post my question here.

I have no chilled all of my beers so far but these are my first wheat beers. After a big brew day on Sunday I have 2 cubes of Hefe and 2 cubes of dunkelweizen. I know wheat beers are best drunk when fresh so does this mean from the time they are fermented or from the time they are brewed. I dont see myself getting through 80L of beer in the next few weeks.

Kabooby


----------



## Steve

kabooby said:


> I dont see myself getting through 80L of beer in the next few weeks.



girls blouse :icon_chickcheers: 

any way I would say from the time they are fermented.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## SJW

Who started this thread off again :angry: 
Its like a drug this thread, if its on the "latest threads" I just need to read.

Steve


----------



## kabooby

Sorry to disapoint Steve. I can start an argument if you want :lol:


----------



## Jye

kabooby said:


> NI know wheat beers are best drunk when fresh so does this mean from the time they are fermented or from the time they are brewed.



Fermented. You dont want to loose the aromatics that the yeast produce... yummers :chug:


----------



## SJW

> Sorry to disapoint Steve. I can start an argument if you want



I'm never disapointed bud. Just dont mention Botulism  

Steve


----------



## deebee

kabooby said:


> Sorry to disapoint Steve. I can start an argument if you want :lol:




Why not? Experience has shown this is definitely the right room.


----------



## braufrau

How long does this no-chill caper take?
The kettle has been sitting on the stove for 18 hours now and its still warm. I'd like my stove back!


----------



## AndrewQLD

braufrau said:


> How long does this no-chill caper take?
> The kettle has been sitting on the stove for 18 hours now and its still warm. I'd like my stove back!



Depends on the ambient air temp and the volume of wort, 24 hours should see it down to room temperature. I hope you have your kettle well sealed? Any reason why you didn't transfer to an ait tight cube and seal for cooling?

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## lucas

if you're chilling in you're kettle, best bet is to take it away from the heat source (though it's a bit late now). there's always a lot of heat left in the stand/element, so it's good to get it away from there.

if the kettle is small enough to stick in the sink, I'd give it a bath in cold water, stirring the water occasionally to get it cool as quick as possible. Im not so comfortable with the idea of completely ambient chilling without a well sealed container


----------



## braufrau

I'm going off this no chill thingo.
It saves a bit of time on the day but then the brewing day goes on and on for another 24 hours.
Anyone know where I can get some cheap copper tubing?


----------



## Weizguy

G'day braufrau,

Sorry if this seems harsh, but you seem to have missed the point of "no-chill".  

As I see it, the object is to allow the wort to cool naturally (that's the bit you're doing), but in the sanitary milieu (nice word) of an internally-pasteurised jerry can.

The heat pasteurises the inside of the plastic, which one has hopefully cleansed and sanitised beforehand.

I have cooled wort in the kettle overnight, and it's akin to playing Russian Roulette with your beer. If there are any opportunistic organisms in the area (wild yeast, bacteria, other mould and fungi, dogs etc), your beer may be contaminated by them as it cools and becomes vulnerable.

If I was using the technique you've employed, I'd probably bring the beer to the boil again for, say, 10 minutes and then rack (while hot) into a sanitised fermentor, and cool that in a sink/bathtub. Ensure that the airlock contains just enough sanitiser or boiled water to cover the bend and then plug the top of the airlock with a clean cotton ball. Insurance? Yes!
An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, which in this case would mean a whole new batch of ingredients, coz you can't "undo" an opportunistic contamination.
I understand that re-boiling will wind back any late hopping you have employed, but you'll still get a drinkable beer, rather than potential drain cleaner.

My 2 cents/ ounce of prevention
Beerz
Les


----------



## Stuster

I agree with lucas. I think it's much better to use a sealed container for no chilling. It can take a long time to cool down in the summer (as you are now finding out unfortunately). I know there are quite a few Americans who do the no chill thing in the kettle, but I wonder what ambient temperatures are. Anyway, no help now. I'd stick it in a bath of cold water now and try to get it to pitching temp asap.


----------



## Adamt

I liberally spray the inside, uncovered sides of my kettle, outside of my kettle (particularly near the top) and the lid with phosphoric acid solution before lidding it and leaving it outside overnight. This is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but it removes need for me to rack near-boiling wort; and I haven't had a no-chill related problem so far, particularly no oxidation. My kettle seems to seal fairly well as a crapload of condensation drips when I pull the lid off in the morning.


----------



## braufrau

Les the Weizguy said:


> Sorry if this seems harsh, but you seem to have missed the point of "no-chill".
> 
> As I see it, the object is to allow the wort to cool naturally (that's the bit you're doing), but in the sanitary milieu (nice word) of an internally-pasteurised jerry can.



The point of no chill is to add an extra racking step and buy an extra bit of equipment! Well in that case I did miss the point! 
I thought it was to save an extra bit of equipment and time on brew day! Silly me!

There are a minority of no chillers who just let the wort sit in the kettle but so far, whether I get an infection or not, I've found the
whole thing a bit stressful. So either I get a chiller or go back to carrying the kettle full of boiling wort to the laundry.


----------



## Weizguy

braufrau said:


> The point of no chill is to add an extra racking step and buy an extra bit of equipment! Well in that case I did miss the point!
> I thought it was to save an extra bit of equipment and time on brew day! Silly me!


Hahaha...no, there is some time-saving on the day, which creates the opportunity for you to pitch yeast on another day. At your leisure, if you will.

I don't believe that there was mention of "no extra equipment involved". :lol: Just less chilling equipment, and cleaning thereof.

We are emulating the "fresh wort" producers in our own way, and doing it (mostly  ) quite well. Myself, I have have about 90 litres of wort sitting here waiting for me to get off this forum and culture some yeast. To wit, an altbier (brewed by me to split with Ms Thirstywench), a classic English pale ale, a Vienna lager and a highly late-hopped German pils (HAG pils- 2006).

So, the benefits are:
No chilling equipment required on the day;
Time saving re no-chilling of the wort;
Pitch yeast later when the yeast is sufficiently active (cells/ml/Plato);
Save the wort for when you have no time to brew;
Convenience/ laziness factor

(* makes a mental note to check the no-chill wiki, and see if it can be linked the top of each page on this thread).
Beerz
Les out


----------



## braufrau

Well for me the attraction was not having to invest in a wort chiller.
I wasn't contemplating it until there was a thread about chilling in the kettle which got me thinking.
I was also swayed by the convenience factor but now I see, for the way that I brew and the infrequent brews that I do, its much better
to get it all over and done with on the day.

I wonder if there's a no chiller who will sell me their old wort chiller???


----------



## MAH

I think it's time to re-visit the work of Louis Pasteur. Pasteur was the original no-chiller. He showed us that we don't need an airtight container or worry that wee little beasties will climb into our wort. He showed that just as long as damaging organisms can't fall into our wort, all will be sweet. 

Pasteur devised a long swan-necked flask. Air could reach the flask through the opening but dust particles and microorganisms could not, because the curved neck served as a trap. Pasteur placed some fermentable broth in the flask, heated it to pasteurise the contents then let cool (just like no chilling). What he found was the broth stayed sterile. In fact there are some of his original experiments in the Louis Pasteur museum that are over 100 years old and the contents are still sterile. 





The work of Pasteur is worth considering when we start to hypothesis about what we must and must not do in relation to no chilling.

Cheers

MAH


----------



## Darren

MAH,

Where would we find a 20 litre swan-necked flask? 

cheers

Darren


----------



## Kai

Darren,

I find a plastic water container with the lid screwed tight is a good substitute. Come over one brew day and I'll walk you through the process if you're interested.


----------



## andreic

When I was contemplating AG brewing, buying or making a chiller seemed like a big deal (and expense)... then I saw "the no chill method". $40 for 3 of the blue 20L jerrycans from kmart (on special) - that's 3 no chill beers and still a lot cheaper than buying a chiller. The jerrycans are around $20 when not on special - still much cheaper than a chiller.

I have done 17 AG brews now and have never used a chiller! Never had an infection problem. Happy customer here  

cheers


----------



## Darren

Kai said:


> Darren,
> 
> I find a plastic water container with the lid screwed tight is a good substitute. Come over one brew day and I'll walk you through the process if you're interested.




Hey Kai,

You would have thought that Pasteur would have though of that  

cheers

Darren


----------



## Hutch

Darren said:


> Hey Kai,
> 
> You would have thought that Pasteur would have though of that
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Of course plastic wasn't available back then. Nor were Jerry-cans for that matter.
What exactly are you trying to contribute here Darren?


----------



## drsmurto

Hutch said:


> Of course plastic wasn't available back then. Nor were Jerry-cans for that matter.
> What exactly are you trying to contribute here Darren?



I would love to see a poll on how many brewers with science degrees or higher advocate this process.


----------



## Hutch

DrSmurto said:


> I would love to see a poll on how many brewers with science degrees or higher advocate this process.


Well, Science and Engineering here. 
So what would such a poll prove DS???


----------



## drsmurto

Hutch said:


> Well, Science and Engineering here.
> So what would such a poll prove DS???



You are a scientist/engy and you advocate this process? Ok, so that poll may be pointless then. 

From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C. 

And botulism is only one part of this argument. 100C doesnt kill every bug lying in waiting, maybe 99% but that still leaves a lot behind. 

I have read almost all of this thread, most of it is abuse but i did read up that part of the justification of this method was based on the fresh wort packs available. There is a big difference between the hygiene levels of a manufacturing company and some bloke in a shed. That and the fact you reuse the same cubes and are only ever sanitising in between uses.

Just like the argument between sanitising and sterilising. there is a HUGE difference.

I dont expect people to listen to me, you have ignored every bit of scientific reasoning Darren has thrown at you. It just scares me a little that too many people will jump on this site, read this thread and think its all OK. There needs to be a disclaimer at the beginning........


----------



## geoffi

Dairy products have been known to transmit botulism. I understand that fresh milk (as opposed to UHT) is pasteurised at about 70c. So it's not hot enough to prevent botulism.

Having said that, I grew up in a dairy-farming area and drank bucketloads of non-pasteurised milk and cream, as did just about everybody else...never heard of anybody getting sick because of it.

Bottom line is: there is risk in everything. Some risks are riskier than others. I'd put no-chill brewing a hell of a long way down the risk list. I'll bet it's safer than travelling by car, and waaaaay safer than riding a motorbike.

_
No-chill brewing...taste life on the edge!_



DrSmurto said:


> From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.
> .


----------



## troydo

Would i be right in assuming this debate rages on due to storage of the wort for a period of time or is there still perceived problems with the cube and pitch the next day clan as well?


----------



## Stuster

DrSmurto said:


> There is a big difference between the hygiene levels of a manufacturing company and some bloke in a shed. That and the fact you reuse the same cubes and are only ever sanitising in between uses.




I wouldn't count on it being that different in fact.  

And I suggest doing more than sanitising in between batches. I always soak the cube in napisan between uses. Cleaning is at least as important as sanitising IMO.

BTW, also have science degree and know a number of other no chillers who have too. If we have the numbers, does that make us right? :lol:


----------



## Stuster

Troydo said:


> Would i be right in assuming this debate rages on due to storage of the wort for a period of time or is there still perceived problems with the cube and pitch the next day clan as well?




More the longer term storage now I think, with the failure of the other supposed issues to occur in the real world having foiled some arguments. I think it's mainly about fishing these days though.


----------



## Zizzle

DrSmurto said:


> From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.



What about the argument of hops being a great Botulism inhibitor?


----------



## Hutch

DrSmurto said:


> You are a scientist/engy and you advocate this process? Ok, so that poll may be pointless then.
> 
> From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.
> 
> And botulism is only one part of this argument. 100C doesnt kill every bug lying in waiting, maybe 99% but that still leaves a lot behind.
> 
> I have read almost all of this thread, most of it is abuse but i did read up that part of the justification of this method was based on the fresh wort packs available. There is a big difference between the hygiene levels of a manufacturing company and some bloke in a shed. That and the fact you reuse the same cubes and are only ever sanitising in between uses.
> 
> Just like the argument between sanitising and sterilising. there is a HUGE difference.
> 
> I dont expect people to listen to me, you have ignored every bit of scientific reasoning Darren has thrown at you. It just scares me a little that too many people will jump on this site, read this thread and think its all OK. There needs to be a disclaimer at the beginning........



Darren, yourself, and anyone else is perfectly entitled to disagree with the practice of NoChilling, and not use it.
...But please - to suggest that we have all "ignored every bit of scientific reasoning" thrown at us, and that Darren is the only source of "rational thinking" is arrogant, and rude to the extreme.

His continual baiting, and "scientifically holier than though" intellectual snobbery is verging on obnoxious, and is missing the point of who and why people are using the technique.

Disagree with the practice? Fine. Don't do it. Buy some copper pipe and plumb it into your tank water/pool/whatever.
Feel better about yourself for "doing what the big boys do". I've made beer this way too, and have come to MY OWN PERSONAL preference to go NC for reasons of time, water, convenience, etc. And I make perfectly drinkable beer (read this thread if you need proof).

As has been reiterated ad-nauseum, this thread is for "Users" of NC. 
Some find Darren's little comments amusing. I find them tired and egotistical.
People may well jump on this site, and pick up all sorts of new ideas without understanding them - propagating and culturing yeast for one is a recipe for disaster in the wrong hands. I'd like to think that brewers reading this thread, and adopting the practice are smart enough to make up their own minds about the risk/benefit trade-off.

Enough bitching. Do what works for you, drink your own beer, and everyone's happy


----------



## braufrau

Hutch said:


> Buy some copper pipe and plumb it into your tank water/pool/whatever.
> Feel better about yourself for "doing what the big boys do". I've made beer this way too, and have come to MY OWN PERSONAL preference to go NC for reasons of time, water, convenience, etc.



So Hutch .. .can I buy your chiller off you?


----------



## SJW

> I dont expect people to listen to me, you have ignored every bit of scientific reasoning Darren has thrown at you. It just scares me a little that too many people will jump on this site, read this thread and think its all OK. There needs to be a disclaimer at the beginning........



I think we need to go back and read the title of this thread.......being USERS of the no chill method.
I recall that all the safety issues and diclaimers have been made known back on the original NO CHILLER thread.
But I guess if one of us dies or is in the process of a slow painfull death from some hidious disease related to NO CHILLING and dont make it onto the site in time to warn us we may never no <_< 
Another reason to drop this and related no chiller threads.


----------



## Hutch

braufrau said:


> So Hutch .. .can I buy your chiller off you?


He he! 
I'm holding on to it until copper is more valuable than gold. Won't be long now...


----------



## braufrau

Hutch said:


> He he!
> I'm holding on to it until copper is more valuable than gold. Won't be long now...




Come on! Put your chiller where your mouth is! :lol:
I'd get HWMBO to whip one up for me but you can't get copper in 8m lengths. What would I do with the 
other half of the roll?


----------



## geoffi

Yes, it's true. Beer brewed by the no-chill method contains a toxic substance that is implicated in thousands of deaths every year.

It's called alcohol.

FOOLS!!! STOP DRINKING THAT STUFF!!! DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW DANGEROUS IT IS?!?!


----------



## Zizzle

Wait, I've got it... the reason why the chillers still don't see the light:



ScienceDaily said:


> Among older adults whose diets are high in saturated and trans fats, a *high intake of copper* may be associated with an accelerated rate of *decline in thinking*, learning and memory abilities, according to a report in the August issue of Archives of Neurology, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/...60816013125.htm

  :lol:


----------



## MAH

DrSmurto said:


> I would love to see a poll on how many brewers with science degrees or higher advocate this process.



Post-graduate qualifications in Public Health from a Go8 university.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## MAH

DrSmurto said:


> From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to 120C to prevent botulism.



Botulism occurs in an oxygen free environment. My earlier point about Pasteur was that you don't need an oxygen free environment for no chilling (unless you plan on long term storage), so doesn't this overcome one of the last great fear factors?

Cheers
MAH


----------



## bigholty

I'm considering going to a 'no-chill in the kettle' method on a new, larger brewery that I am assembling at the moment (I currently use an immersion chiller). I have consumed a good portion of time today scratching the surface of this thread but I still have a couple of reservations that I hope you no-chillers out there can help with:
- I thought that cooling quickly post-boil helped to 'lock-in' more of the volatile hop aroma compounds from flame-out additions. Do you find the fresh hop aroma is significantly diminished by no-chilling or not?
- I thought rapid cooling helped to form a better cold-break. Am I going to have more trub losses with this method?
- I plan to cool in the fully covered kettle, then rack to the fermenter and pitch as soon as temp is achieved. Even if some unwanted microbes get in there, won't the healthy yeast starter overrun any impending infection? I don't plan on storing the unfermented wort for any length of time.

Thanks, Mark.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

bigh said:


> - I thought that cooling quickly post-boil helped to 'lock-in' more of the volatile hop aroma compounds from flame-out additions. Do you find the fresh hop aroma is significantly diminished by no-chilling or not?



I do. I am currently experimenting. It seems that you have to time-shift your hop additions forward (towards the end of the boil) to get that joy. How much, I do not know. Not that hard though, if you like brewing... As a first step, add hops to the cube before adding the wort.



bigh said:


> - I thought rapid cooling helped to form a better cold-break. Am I going to have more trub losses with this method?



I've left my cuboid in the carport in cold and hot weather, tried to chill it in a body of cold water and stuck it in the coldroom at G&G. I've found that you get about the same amount of cold break in each circumstance (give or take) but when it's colder, the break forms bigger chunks and so is more noticeable. The effect on *my* beer is indistinguishable in this regard to *me*. Your trub losses may increase slightly, but in the grand scheme of things, how much does it matter?

I do not believe you are not going to make *bad* beer by nochilling, unless it kills you, in which case you don't care about a slight decrease in hop aroma...

Two-thirds of an engineering degree before realising it didn't help with my desired IT career. But, I *do* drive a car and live with a smoker.


----------



## Darren

MAH said:


> Botulism occurs in an oxygen free environment. My earlier point about Pasteur was that you don't need an oxygen free environment for no chilling (unless you plan on long term storage), so doesn't this overcome one of the last great fear factors?
> 
> Cheers
> MAH




MAH,

As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys  . BTW, Pasteurs flask is effectively sealed. It is essentially an airlock.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Pumpy

Darren said:


> MAH,
> 
> As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys  . BTW, Pasteurs flask is effectively sealed. It is essentially an airlock.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Theres no Comulisms in my jerry Hic ! no Reds under the beds either  

Pumpy


----------



## PostModern

Darren said:


> MAH,
> 
> As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys  . BTW, Pasteurs flask is effectively sealed. It is essentially an airlock.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Please list some organisms that are not only capable of surviving 100C but that also are immune to PSR, sodium percarbonate, phosphoric acid, bleach and iodophor. Yes, I rotate sanitisers and use two different sanitisers one after the other before filling.


----------



## sah

Wow PoMo I'm impressed with the santising regime. I thought you were relaxing with the bug paranoia a little.

Darren, I'd be happy to relax PoMo's conditions down to 80C if that helps?

regards,
Scott


----------



## PostModern

Usually just a rinse with PSR after emptying, then PSR again or percarbonate then iodophor before use. I don't sanitise my kegs very often. Just a quarterly stripdown and clean, when I remember... Darren has me slightly paranoid about the botulism in cubes thing, I admit.


----------



## Darren

PoMo,

If it not clean it doesnt matter what sanitiser you use. Breweries have reported getting pediococcus sp. hidden under the false bottom surviving the boil and spoiling beer. Plently of places to hide in most jerries  

SAH, Ever measured the surface temp of your plastic jerry? It would be lucky to be 80C!! 

Just as a data point, I have seen mould grow on agar that was autoclaved then poured into petri dishes under sterile laminar flow. 
How could that possibly happen?

cheers

Darren


----------



## sah

Hi Darren,

I agree that nature has her way from time to time. However, the number of unfavourable "no-chill" reports has been very low.

On the temperature of the cube, I'll try and find the instrument that plugs into my multimeter that measures surface temp and report on the outside temp of the cube.

What off flavours are an indication of a pediococcus sp. infection?

regards,
Scott


----------



## Darren

SAH said:


> Hi Darren,
> 
> 
> What off flavours are an indication of a pediococcus sp. infection?
> 
> regards,
> Scott




Stinky feet or rotten socks


----------



## PostModern

Darren said:


> PoMo,
> 
> If it not clean it doesnt matter what sanitiser you use. Breweries have reported getting pediococcus sp. hidden under the false bottom surviving the boil and spoiling beer. Plently of places to hide in most jerries
> 
> SAH, Ever measured the surface temp of your plastic jerry? It would be lucky to be 80C!!
> 
> Just as a data point, I have seen mould grow on agar that was autoclaved then poured into petri dishes under sterile laminar flow.
> How could that possibly happen?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



So they can also survive in the dodgy welds in immersion chillers, in kettle ball valves, transfer hoses, etc etc etc.

I appreciate where you're coming from, Darren. I just think that the risk is much the same as chillers with the single exception of a delay between brewing and pitching. So far, I have been cycling thru about 5 cubes fairly evenly over 12 months. No infections yet (except for a lurker in one of my fermenters). Am I pushing the boundaries or what?

EDIT: never had stinkfoot smelling beer yet, either.


----------



## big d

Lifes short.Take the occasional risk and push the boundry of brewing.  

Cheers
Big D


----------



## Batz

Darren said:


> Stinky feet or rotten socks




Yukko oh the diddly oh!





That's something you wouldn't forget in a hurry :huh: 

Batz


----------



## blackbock

Darren said:


> PoMo,
> 
> If it not clean it doesnt matter what sanitiser you use. Breweries have reported getting pediococcus sp. hidden under the false bottom surviving the boil and spoiling beer. Plently of places to hide in most jerries
> 
> SAH, Ever measured the surface temp of your plastic jerry? It would be lucky to be 80C!!



My information indicates that Pediococcus will survive between 7-60C. It also needs a long time to get established, typically months and, like botulism, doesn't like oxygen. An oxygen-permeable jerry can pseudo-pasteurised is not sounding like such an ideal environment for P. to me.


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys  .



So how often do you buy new fermenters? I presume the same comment could be made about any piece of brewing equioment that is used time and time again.

What this highlights is that you need to be careful with both your _cleaning_ and _sanitation_ regime to _reduce_ the risk of infection. 

No procedure, even using a chiller like a counter flow is free of the risk of infection. Personally I don't have a problem with the low level of risk of no-chilling. I use fermentors not jerry cans, and feel a lot more comfortable about being able to clean and sanitise the inside of a big bucket, which I can also visually inspect, rather than the inside of a counter flow chiller. 


Cheers
MAH


----------



## beerguide

I just did my first AG and my first no chill about two weeks ago, granted I only cubed overnight as I couldn't fit my 70ltr boiler in my sink but I personally don't see any greater risk of cubing versus chilling if you approach it with a solid cleaning and sanitising plan. I soaked my cube in Starsan (full to the brim) until it was ready, then rinsed it again with a fresh Starsan solution of around 3 ltres just to be sure topped it up with worty goodness and sat it out to cool overnight. I would have left it easily a fortnight or two if needed, but I was keen to pitch.

Granted I'm no expert nor experienced but I can't see how it is any different in a sanitary and closed pasturised environment to potentially passing your wort through a cleaned chiller and pitching. Personally I think cubing provides a safer route then chilling as it is in my opinion easier to clean a cube then it is a chiller, and I'll continue to do it. If I get an infection I'll blame my cleanliness, not the cube. If I die from 'botu', so be it - sh*t happens


----------



## barneyhanway

Yawn.
This thread continues to be about infection, when the fact of the matter is all brewing techniques and brewing in general is susceptible to nasties.
This isn't the "no-sanitise" thread, so lets move on shall we?

Can we move forward with the differences I actually care about - flavour?

I've never tried a NC lager, who wants to give me some up to date feedback on the amount of DMS you are experiencing?

For my experience with NC, my palette can't discern any difference between it and a chilled beer, but I am curious about what might happen to hop profiles especially in hop driven beers with large late additions. Seems to me hop acids sitting in hot wort _should_ get progressively more bitter until the wort has cooled significantly, is anyone there actively managing it in their brewing process?


----------



## beerguide

The science would indicate that hops in hot wort should become more bitter. I can't comment on whether my process worked or not, but I adjusted my schedule to add my bittering hops at 30 mins instead of 60 mins to combat it. Although my brew wasn't a hop driven beer and the hops were low, I 'assumed' that heat + hops = bitter, so adjusted accordingly.

Could be a stroke or genius or a total stuff up, I'll find out once its bottled and conditioned.

The guy up the road that helped me with my AG has been cubing since Jesus was born, so he tells me. I've not tasted a bad beer of his - he too adds his hops later than compared to a chilling method to help combat the continued bittering due to the heat.


----------



## browndog

barneyhanway said:


> Yawn.
> This thread continues to be about infection, when the fact of the matter is all brewing techniques and brewing in general is susceptible to nasties.
> This isn't the "no-sanitise" thread, so lets move on shall we?
> 
> Can we move forward with the differences I actually care about - flavour?
> 
> I've never tried a NC lager, who wants to give me some up to date feedback on the amount of DMS you are experiencing?
> 
> For my experience with NC, my palette can't discern any difference between it and a chilled beer, but I am curious about what might happen to hop profiles especially in hop driven beers with large late additions. Seems to me hop acids sitting in hot wort _should_ get progressively more bitter until the wort has cooled significantly, is anyone there actively managing it in their brewing process?



With my latest NC beer I added 50G chinook at flame out then let it sit for 20 mins before racking straight to the fermenter and pitching another 50G chinook. That is 100G of reasonably high alpha hops and I found it didn't add to the bitterness of the beer at all. The actual recipe is in the recipes section LCPA recipe. 

cheers

Browndog


----------



## MAH

barneyhanway said:


> I've never tried a NC lager, who wants to give me some up to date feedback on the amount of DMS you are experiencing?



None. My no chilled lagers have been tasted by a range of brewers, some professional, and no-one has identified DMS. Even Darren who has tasted my lagers has not mentioned DMS.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## lucas

browndog said:


> With my latest NC beer I added 50G chinook at flame out then let it sit for 20 mins before racking straight to the fermenter and pitching another 50G chinook. That is 100G of reasonably high alpha hops and I found it didn't add to the bitterness of the beer at all. The actual recipe is in the recipes section LCPA recipe.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


holy crap, that's a metric shitload of a very potent hop! I hope you didnt "waste" any other hops in the brew, I doubt you'd be able to taste them through the chinook


----------



## mikem108

My No Chill German Pils came first in AABC B)


----------



## PostModern

mikem108 said:


> My No Chill German Pils came first in AABC B)



And a stand out good beer it was! 

There was nothing to set it out as faulty against other beers in the category. I wonder, however, if the one beer in the flight that had noticeably too much DMS was no-chilled or just made with European Pils malt and single infusion mashed?


----------



## browndog

mikem108 said:


> My No Chill German Pils came first in AABC B)



Great to hear Mike, I think the need to crash chill the wort is baloney.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## bigfridge

PostModern said:


> And a stand out good beer it was!
> 
> There was nothing to set it out as faulty against other beers in the category. ...



Ah, but just wait PoMo for the anti-NC'ers to hear of this. Such results mean nothing to them.

They will argue with such conviction that even though it came first 'in its contaminated state' - just think how perfect it could have been if it was properly chilled after the boil !

'Another fine beer ruined' they will say.


----------



## braufrau

I'm bottling my first no chill on Sunday. 
And it was cooled in the kettle. Shock! Horror!

But I wont do it again because I'm not feeling the convenience factor everyone else quotes ..
so if anyone wants to sell me an immersion chiller they're not using ...


----------



## Zizzle

braufrau said:


> But I wont do it again because I'm not feeling the convenience factor everyone else quotes ..
> so if anyone wants to sell me an immersion chiller they're not using ...



I'm confused, you say NC is not as convenient, but don't have a chiller.... have you tried both methods?


----------



## mikelinz

Just acquired 2 25l cubes that have had Echolab foamchlor (potasium hydroxide <10% & sodium hypochlorite <10%) so this is effectively a bleach sanitizer. Any suggestions for how to make this container clean/safe to use as a no chill vessel.

rgds mike


----------



## barneyhanway

Some more positive results for no-chill, I entered 5 beers in the SOBA New Zealand National Homebrew Competition - http://www.realbeer.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9874#9874, results came in this morning.
Mild Ale: gold, best in class
American Brown Ale: silver, best in class
Best Bitter: silver
Best Bitter (summer bitter) bronze

I'd say that's enough justification for me at least to stick with no-chill.


----------



## therook

barneyhanway said:


> Some more positive results for no-chill, I entered 5 beers in the SOBA New Zealand National Homebrew Competition - http://www.realbeer.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9874#9874, results came in this morning.
> Mild Ale: gold, best in class
> American Brown Ale: silver, best in class
> Best Bitter: silver
> Best Bitter (summer bitter) bronze
> 
> I'd say that's enough justification for me at least to stick with no-chill.




Great results Barney, just forward some of them beers to therook for further assessment  

Rook


----------



## braufrau

Zizzle said:


> I'm confused, you say NC is not as convenient, but don't have a chiller.... have you tried both methods?




Until the no-chill brew .. which I'm bottling tonight .. I always carried the boiling pot of wort to the laundry
to chill in an ice bath.

It wasn't a safe practice so i thought 
I'd try no-chill but it just makes the brewing go on and on and on. I like to have it all over in one day.
So now I'm looking for a chiller. Maybe santa will bring me one.


----------



## lucas

braufrau said:


> Until the no-chill brew .. which I'm bottling tonight .. I always carried the boiling pot of wort to the laundry
> to chill in an ice bath.
> 
> It wasn't a safe practice so i thought
> I'd try no-chill but it just makes the brewing go on and on and on. I like to have it all over in one day.
> So now I'm looking for a chiller. Maybe santa will bring me one.


if you put the wort into a sealed vessel, brew day ends when you tighten the lid on the vessel. (ok, so maybe it ends after you're done cleaning up ). you can forget about it until you want to pitch your yeast, which can be the next day, the next week or if you're really confident in your cleanliness and sanitation it could be months down the track. 

your complaint seems to be about a non-standard variant of nochilling, one I certainly wouldnt endorse and if it were doing it that way i'd probably be just as worried as you about how long it was till I could pitch. By all means get a chiller, I'd certainly like to try one out myself; but dont keep bashing nonchill because it didnt save you any time, since you picked a method that didnt allow it to.


----------



## braufrau

lucas said:


> chiller, I'd certainly like to try one out myself; but dont keep bashing nonchill because it didnt save you any time, since you picked a method that didnt allow it to.



I'm not *bashing* anything. :angry: 
I simply said no chill doesnt suit me (and would any no-chillers like to sell me their now redundant chiller.
Scott kindly offered but his is too big for my kettle. )
And since saying that I have had to justify my preference over and over which makes it seem I am on some campaign.
So if there is any bashing going on it is me being bashed for preferring to have my brew day over and done with on the day.


----------



## jimmyjack

Honestly, isn't their someone who can do two exact same brews. 1 no chill and 1 chilled and then take to samples to a scientist to look under a microscope. I thought their were some science buffs here. Maybe we could put this to bed once and for all. The nc nay sayers are starting to sound a little bit like the world is flat. 

Cheers, JJ


----------



## braufrau

jimmyjack said:


> Honestly, isn't their someone who can do two exact same brews. 1 no chill and 1 chilled and then take to samples to a scientist to look under a microscope. I thought their were some science buffs here. Maybe we could put this to bed once and for all. The nc nay sayers are starting to sound a little bit like the world is flat.
> 
> Cheers, JJ




oh no! the nay sayers would say botulism is rare and one specimin isn't enough! 

What you would need to do is infect two brews with botulism and see if it survives.
Actually .. that's not a bad idea! Infect two wort samples, chill one and not the other and see what happens.

Where's a biologist to take up the no chill challenge?


----------



## Stuster

braufrau said:


> What you would need to do is infect two brews with botulism and see if it survives.
> Actually .. that's not a bad idea! Infect two wort samples, chill one and not the other and see what happens.
> 
> Where's a biologist to take up the no chill challenge?




So, are you suggesting Darren should sample these and see if he can tell which one has the botulism?


----------



## Darren

MAH said:


> So how often do you buy new fermenters? I presume the same comment could be made about any piece of brewing equioment that is used time and time again.
> 
> 
> No procedure, even using a chiller like a counter flow is free of the risk of infection. Personally I don't have a problem with the low level of risk of no-chilling. I use fermentors not jerry cans, and feel a lot more comfortable about being able to clean and sanitise the inside of a big bucket, which I can also visually inspect, rather than the inside of a counter flow chiller.
> Cheers
> MAH



MAH,

Good points but what you are missing is that as "no-chill" the wort cools very slowly through the optimal ranges for many pathogenic or at least beer spoilage organisms, effectively allowing them to have multiplied significantly by the time you pitch your relatively heat-intolerant yeast. Rapidly chilling has proven to be the most effective means to produce consistency from batch-to-batch (ie. lower infection rate) for about two centuries now. Now that final myth about "no chill" no worries has been dispelled  

In combination with your unbridled support for the "plastic boiler bucket of death" and "no-chill" beer as good ideas, I wonder where that Go8 education in public health came from?

cheers

Darren


----------



## haysie

lucas said:


> your complaint seems to be about a non-standard variant of nochilling,



and now there is a standard we can all strive towards.

FFS we brew beer, if there were "standards" why would we bother?
I did n/c and now dont for reasons Braufrau threw up, each too their own, no need for a blowtorch.


----------



## Maxt

Very sorry if this has been covered before, but I thought it was important to chill lagers quickly because of the cold break?

It's obvious that people here are making good NC beers, so is the article below not true?



"Formation of Cold Break 

As the clear hot wort is cooled, the previously invisible coagulum loses its solubility and precipitates. The precipitate is referred to as the cold break and begins forming at about 60C (4). The cold break mostly consists of protein-polyphenol (tannin) complexes, whereas the hot break is mostly proteinaceous. The cold break also has a higher level of carbohydrates (primarily beta-glucans) than the hot break (7). Highly modified malts yield a higher percentage of polyphenols in cold trub than do less-modified malts, while under-modified malts yield more protein and beta-glucans and relatively fewer polyphenols (1).

It is essential that the cold break be precipitated as much as possible, which is done by a very rapid cooling. The wort must be force-cooled to below 10C to secure a satisfactory break, and it precipitates best at 0 to 5C. Complete precipitation of polyphenol/proteins to achieve a brilliantly clear beer is achieved by cooling the wort until it becomes slushy. Many brewers have found that following this procedure greatly reduces the need for clarification. A long, slow cooling does not give a good cold break because more protein is trapped in suspension; this gives rise to a finer trub, chill haze, and harsh, sulfur-like aftertastes in the beer. Coarse trub is essential for good separation and good beer stability. In addition, a rapid cooling will minimize the development of dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which is more likely, to form when using lager malt. If the wort is reheated, cold trub will go back into solution, forming a chill haze."
http://www.beer-brewing.com/apex/wort_cool...k_formation.htm


----------



## dr K

I choose not to "no-chill", part of reason why I choose not to "no-chill" is that introduces, in my brewery, yet another path for possible infection, its my choice though, another part of the reason is to say "why bother".
All that aside the only major problem I can see with "no chill" where "no chill' is running very hot wort into clean food grade container sealing it and pitching yeast later is the name, as the name "no-chill" is both incorrect and importantly does not sufficiently differentiate the method from others and you want to get into a discussion about semantics I am more than up to it but not on this thread..PM me or create another .
Congratulations to our Kiwi friend..it goes to show that you are a good brewer, and a good brewer has many arrows in his/her quiver. 
I have not heard too many complaints about wort kits!!

K


----------



## dr K

MaxT
I certainly had my doubts about heaven forbid "no chill" but aftermuch thought and excellent counsel I came to the conclusion "why bother" and "sounds like the language of a used car salesman"
Certainly rapid cooling is important, but the article you quote notes that to be really effective the wort needs to be chilled to sub 5C. 
I will not bother with NC but the idea of fast crashing to sub 5C, pitching yeast at that temp then letting nature take its course certainly makes me think, not that I will ever try it, but it makes for some interesting discussion.


K


----------



## braufrau

Well my NC BPA is now in its bottles.
The taste from the fermenter was nice. No taste of infectio ... aaarrrggghh!


----------



## PostModern

D'oh. I never thought I'd be posting bad news in here. I've lost a batch to a cube. My oldest cube, should have aborted when the sealing ring fell out of the lid near the brewery, but I was lazy and filled the cube anyway. Bugger. Smells a bit like beer coming out of the neck of the cube, so it could be wild yeast got in there.

Will be tipping it down the loo and chucking the cube.

I've done about 30 no-chills. This is the only one gone bad on me. =(


----------



## oldbugman

PostModern said:


> I've done about 30 no-chills. This is the only one gone bad on me. =(



But the good news is the fact you can see why/where it went wrong.


----------



## SJW

I vote we start a partition to end this thread. It's as if I have contracted some mutated form of botulism that compels me to open this thread every time it raises its ugly head. I know I know....if u dont like it dont read it.......well..........I CANT..........I got issues, its a disease, please help and end this reign of terror that is the "users of the NO CHILL METHOD" thread.
The pain.... the nightmares.... it plagues me. I have ended our familys contract with the Palm Springs water company as I was getting worried about Botulism growing in the water bottles. I can't even look a bottle of milk in the eye now. If anything is within 3 days of it's used by date, its in the bin.
I started this thread on a UK forum and got 2 responses.
Anyway I am going out to Super Chlorinate my pool....again.

Steve


----------



## sah

PostModern said:


> D'oh. I never thought I'd be posting bad news in here. I've lost a batch to a cube.



Right that's it!

6 x 16L + 1 x 25L cubes for sale best offer accepted.

Scott


----------



## PostModern

SAH said:


> Right that's it!
> 
> 6 x 16L + 1 x 25L cubes for sale best offer accepted.
> 
> Scott



I'll take 'em


----------



## Gerard_M

I have done a few no-chills in the past, but I will be back to using a heat exchanger from now on!
Cheers
Gerard


----------



## PostModern

Yeah, OK OK OK, thanks guys. So I stuffed up. Lesson learnt, be vigilant, follow "the method" 100%. 97% is not good enough.


----------



## Kai

Gerard_M said:


> I have done a few no-chills in the past, but I will be back to using a heat exchanger from now on!
> Cheers
> Gerard



I've got a heat exchanger! I dump the jerry into the laundry trough and fill it with cold water.


----------



## beerguide

Thats what I've been doing Kai. My 70ltr boiler is too large to fit in my 'ice-bath' (read: laundry tub), but my jerrys fit in perfectly.


----------



## geoffi

No-chilling promotes chill haze?

I've done a few no-chill pilseners.

A week in primary, two weeks, secondary, a month lagering...

...and so clear you could read the newspaper through it.


----------



## MAH

Hundreds of posts ago there was a challenge from the nay-sayers about how much water people used everyday. Well I've received my latest bill and over a 12 month period, my household used an average of 90 litres per person per day. Considering the Australian average is 340 litres per person per day, we're using only 26.5% of the Australian average. I think that's certainly worth some bragging rights. 

Maybe I can afford to start using my CFC agian  .

Cheers
MAH


----------



## MAH

Darren said:


> I wonder where that Go8 education in public health came from?



Go8 is short for Group of Eight. They're the top universities in Australia. 

I studied at the same university which has produced 3 Nobel Laureates and 100 Rhodes Scholars..........which also happens to be the same university you attended :lol: .

Cheers
MAH


----------



## geoffi

340 litres a day? Ouch! With a 20K litre tank for all water for three people, we must have less than three weeks supply for the average household. Seems to last us a couple of months no problems.

As far a using a wort chiller, being on tank water it is even more of an option, I suppose. I could easily just run the water back into the tank. But NC works a treat, so I couldn't be bothered. Besides, it removes all possibility of contamination from the untreated tank water -- and that's a MUCH bigger concern for me than some paranoia about the minute chance of botulism.



MAH said:


> Hundreds of posts ago there was a challenge from the nay-sayers about how much water people used everyday. Well I've received my latest bill and over a 12 month period, my household used an average of 90 litres per person per day. Considering the Australian average is 340 litres per person per day, we're using only 26.5% of the Australian average. I think that's certainly worth some bragging rights.
> 
> Maybe I can afford to start using my CFC agian  .
> 
> Cheers
> MAH


----------



## KHB

Tried to get an understanding for this so thought i would ask. So after whirpooling and letting it settle do you put it straight into a cube? Then do you make sure the wort is right up to the top by squeezing before you put the lid on?Leaving it outside overnight to cool down then refrigerate to pitch when ready??

Cheer Ben


----------



## Duff

KHB said:


> Tried to get an understanding for this so thought i would ask. So after whirpooling and letting it settle do you put it straight into a cube?
> 
> Then do you make sure the wort is right up to the top by squeezing before you put the lid on?
> 
> Leaving it outside overnight to cool down then refrigerate to pitch when ready??
> 
> Cheer Ben




1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.


----------



## redbeard

2a. You might have some air in the handle, depending on how much u squeeze the cube. if so, lay on side for 30mins or so.


----------



## browndog

If you are going to pitch the next day, just rack it straight to your fermenter.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## KHB

ok cool had any losses to no chill method??


----------



## SJW

Who the hell started up this thread again :angry: 



> Hundreds of posts ago there was a challenge from the nay-sayers about how much water people used everyday. Well I've received my latest bill and over a 12 month period, my household used an average of 90 litres per person per day. Considering the Australian average is 340 litres per person per day, we're using only 26.5% of the Australian average. I think that's certainly worth some bragging rights.


There must be a lot of household using a lot of water as our average is about 100 litres a day too. Not much really! considering I would drink two litres of beer a day + water

Steve


----------



## browndog

KHB said:


> ok cool had any losses to no chill method??



Not one out of 80 or so AGs.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## KHB

browndog said:


> Not one out of 80 or so AGs.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog




May have to give it a go


----------



## damoncouper

So if botulism is only killed at above 120 then what does using no-chill have to do with anything? What difference does it make if it is the inside of a jerry or the inside or beer line, if it has become infected with the bacteria Clostridium botulinum you are stuffed. I know that I sterilise the jerry prior to use better than I do my beer line as I am able to use bleach or iodine at concentrated levels and then rinse with a phosphoric acid solution.


----------



## Darren

No,

That is not me under a new name  

cheers

Darren


----------



## warrenlw63

Darren said:


> No,
> 
> That is not me under a new name
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren mitosis? :blink: 

Warren -


----------



## KHB

Just finished my 1st no chill 23ltr of blond ale. Plan to pitch yeast tomorrow morning!!


----------



## kook

Darren said:


> We must keep it in perspective though. Coolships were used prior to the availability of pressurised mains water .
> 
> Since that time 99.9% of breweries have changed to counterflow cooling. *Those that didn't have not survived *
> 
> The common theme?? Cooling.



Cantillon, Lindemans, Boon and De Dolle in Belgium use coolships. U Fleku in the Czech Republic and Iblacker in Germany do too.

Allagash recently installed a new one in the US.

I think they've all survived.

That said, I'm not in any hurry to install a coolship at home.


----------



## winkle

kook said:


> Cantillon, Lindemans, Boon and De Dolle in Belgium use coolships. U Fleku in the Czech Republic and Iblacker in Germany do too.
> 
> Allagash recently installed a new one in the US.
> 
> I think they've all survived.
> 
> That said, I'm not in any hurry to install a coolship at home.



It would be way cool though.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

My take on the No-Chill thing

Grabs wooden stick, bear skin robe, and proceeds to the top off the nearest mountain...



Be damned all ye who wish not to chill, for it is mans right to chill, and those that shalt not shall be thrust into an eternal pool off botulism, madness and lunacy.
For God did not create vast open cut copper mines for ye brewers to simply cast thy wert into plastic containers for thy purpose of cooling.
Thy good lord has written upon a malt tablet thy true procedure for thy chilling of wort and those who wish to disregard thy lords word will suffer for eternity.
For he who preaches the work of the no-chill devil shall be subject to correctment via a hot mash paddle upon his bare flesh 
For if thy good lord discovers such a movement of nay-say devil preachers, he willl take it upon himself to drink warm musket in thy park.
Be warned ye devil chillers, thy lord is not such a pretty sight, drunk in a park...


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

The guys from Allagash Brewing made a video of their coolship's christening:



It's... ummmm.... cool...


----------



## masculator002

have you noticed any difference in flavour with a batch of the same brew which has been chilled and unchilled? or for that matter clarity? I often leave a mash in the esky overnight and if any thing I would say that the extended mash time actually improves it if anything so at the same time why wouldn't an extended cooling time. The way I see it is as long as infection is omitted then if any thing it should help the enzymes etc. help to prep the sugars for fermentation and may even counter any lacking steps in the mashing process.


----------



## matti

great stuff from Allagash.


----------



## chovain

masculator002 said:


> I often leave a mash in the esky overnight and if any thing I would say that the extended mash time actually improves it if anything so at the same time why wouldn't an extended cooling time.



Don't forget that the boil chemically alters the wort, so leaving to cool after the mash is a different thing to leaving it to cool after the boil.


----------



## browndog

masculator002 said:


> have you noticed any difference in flavour with a batch of the same brew which has been chilled and unchilled? or for that matter clarity? I often leave a mash in the esky overnight and if any thing I would say that the extended mash time actually improves it if anything so at the same time why wouldn't an extended cooling time. The way I see it is as long as infection is omitted then if any thing it should help the enzymes etc. help to prep the sugars for fermentation and may even counter any lacking steps in the mashing process.



In my experience, NC does not affect clarity nor flavour.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## yardy

for the record, i built an IC and i have to say that although i've only used it twice (on the last two brews) that i doubt i'll go back to no-chill for a few reasons.

clarity, the chilled beer (10% rye) has near perfect clarity after 2 weeks in the keg, no-chill has taken +twice as long, (although it does clear perfectly).

cold break in the primary, i normally get a shedload in the no-chills, it's been reduced significantlly enough to chill just for this reason alone.

thirdly, it's all done & dusted on the same day unless it's a lager which is transferred and pitched the next am.

for $20 worth of annealed copper from the scrapyard, i wish i had made one from the word go :icon_cheers: 

my 2bobs

cheers
Yard


----------



## Pumpy

kook said:


> Cantillon, Lindemans, Boon and De Dolle in Belgium use coolships. U Fleku in the Czech Republic and Iblacker in Germany do too.
> 
> Allagash recently installed a new one in the US.
> 
> I think they've all survived.
> 
> That said, I'm not in any hurry to install a coolship at home.
> [/quote
> 
> Pic of a coolship . shallow copper trays of cooling wort generally replaced by heat exchangers
> 
> Pumpy


----------



## Tony

Im not going to knock No chill, as i do use it ocasionally. Hell..... my champ beer was a no chill.

But as far as flavour and clarity is concerned, i do think they take a lot longer to clear and i find a snap chilled beer to be smoother flavoured.

The thing is, we all brew differently, our systems are all different and this will affect the final outcome.

I have seen pics of cryatal clear no chill beers on here, me personally, i havnt been able to make one. 

I just made a no chill stout to pe pitched onto the next available and apropriate yeast. I like that aspect of it. Make a beer and just toss it on some yeast when you can.

cheers


----------



## Pumpy

Tony said:


> Im not going to knock No chill, as i do use it ocasionally. Hell..... my champ beer was a no chill.
> 
> But as far as flavour and clarity is concerned, i do think they take a lot longer to clear and i find a snap chilled beer to be smoother flavoured.
> 
> The thing is, we all brew differently, our systems are all different and this will affect the final outcome.
> 
> I have seen pics of cryatal clear no chill beers on here, me personally, i havnt been able to make one.
> 
> I just made a no chill stout to pe pitched onto the next available and apropriate yeast. I like that aspect of it. Make a beer and just toss it on some yeast when you can.
> 
> cheers


Yep I agree 'there is more than one way of skinning a cat '

Pumpy


----------



## Tony

but the best way is the 30 caliber way


----------



## matti

No chill lager is a bit tricky as you try to avoid as much trub as possible.
I chilled my last batch over two days and had to rack it carefully off it.
Not very confident though...
I'll be using fining on this one I'd say if Haven't already kill it (the batch) with stressed out yeast


----------



## Darren

kook said:


> Cantillon, Lindemans, Boon and De Dolle in Belgium use coolships. U Fleku in the Czech Republic and Iblacker in Germany do too.
> 
> Allagash recently installed a new one in the US.
> 
> I think they've all survived.
> 
> [/quote
> 
> 
> 
> Kook,
> 
> They are all lambics though.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren


----------



## Pumpy

[/quote

Kook,

They are all lambics though.

cheers


Darren
[/quote]

One has to give it to Darren he is on the ball .

And always knows where there is a good infection  

keep it up 

pumpy


----------



## mikelinz

Hi Guys

Ended up with 2 cubes (25L) completly full (so probably closer to 30L a peice) yesterday, so obviously over estimated my water volume (or more likley underestimated my boil off volume) which explains the 1.040 instead of the predicted 1.053 i guess (first double batch BIAB). Put what I could into my two available fermenters and the 2 coopers starters I made as well as no more fridge space. 

My question is what to do with the half cube of wort.

I have flooded the half cube with CO2 in the hope that I can keep the wort until I have fermenter/yeast starter/fridge space, a few days at best. 

Anyone got an opinion on how long I can keep it, or should I pitch some yeast and just ferment it at ambient temp in the morning (in the serving fridge overnight), it's not supposed to be too warm this comming week (fingers crossed). It is a coopers style ale so should stand the temp, but don't have another coopers starter ready so would have to use a london ale, probably a similar fruity character to the coopers I guess.

possitive suggestions anyone

rgds mike


----------



## Stuster

Yep, I'd pitch some yeast in the cube tomorrow morning (or now?). It'll be an interesting experiment to see how differently the batches come out with different yeasts. The London ale will be different, but might actually be better. :lol: 

I have drilled holes in spare caps and put a gromet and an airlock on cubes when I use them (got a smoked ale going in one now), but you could just put some cling wrap over them for now.


----------



## mikelinz

Stuster said:


> Yep, I'd pitch some yeast in the cube tomorrow morning (or now?). It'll be an interesting experiment to see how differently the batches come out with different yeasts. The London ale will be different, but might actually be better. :lol:
> 
> I have drilled holes in spare caps and put a gromet and an airlock on cubes when I use them (got a smoked ale going in one now), but you could just put some cling wrap over them for now.



thanks fo that, i 15L bucket & lid (ex mcdonalds piccles) converted to fermenter. I guess coopers would have originally been a london/english ale yeast anyhow.

rgds mike


----------



## SJW

I would just like to publicly withdraw my membership as a "User of the No Chill Method" yes thats true. I will agree it works great and you can make award winning beers using No Chill, and I must of done about 20 brews No Chill, but since I have gone to a 4 keg set up it takes longer to drink any one brew and I have noticed that the longevity of the beer is reduced when I no chilled. Now I just use the immersion chiller for 15mins and reduce the temp to about 40 or 50 and transfer to the fermenter and put in the fermentation fridge until the desired pitching temp is reached, normally within 6 hours.
No doubt the debate will rage on without me and I am not sad about that, but as with all things in this world of craft brewing "if it works for u DO IT! Just watch out for the BOTULISM :lol: 

STEVE


----------



## KHB

I had a bit of truoble squeezing my cube this morning. I usually try and use a clamp with a couple of pieces of wood.

How does everyone else do it???


----------



## kabooby

Fold up a towel a few times to put between the cube and me and squash it between my legs

Just have to be careful you dont spill any on the twins h34r: 

kabooby


----------



## crozdog

KHB said:


> I had a bit of truoble squeezing my cube this morning. I usually try and use a clamp with a couple of pieces of wood.
> 
> How does everyone else do it???


I use the "Crozdog Method"TM. This involves:
- placing the cube slightly out from a step with the cap furthest away from the step.
- Tip the cube back so it touches the step (the cap is now the highest part of the cube). 
- Place a towel or wad of rag on the side of the cube, 
- put knee on cloth,
- open cap whilst gently leaning on knee to push cube in - note use your body weight ;-) 
- close cap when wort starts to escape.

too easy


----------



## tynian

KHB said:


> I had a bit of truoble squeezing my cube this morning. I usually try and use a clamp with a couple of pieces of wood.
> 
> How does everyone else do it???



I got this tip from someone in here whom I cant remember - but kudos to them 

I put my cube on an angle so the mouth is facing up, the with one side leaning against my work bench I put a towel between my knee and other side of the hot cube and push gently. In no time the level rises to the mouth and i let a little spill then seal it up for safekeeping.


----------



## geoffi

tynian said:


> I got this tip from someone in here whom I cant remember - but kudos to them
> 
> I put my cube on an angle so the mouth is facing up, the with one side leaning against my work bench I put a towel between my knee and other side of the hot cube and push gently. In no time the level rises to the mouth and i let a little spill then seal it up for safekeeping.



Same here. Works well.


----------



## crozdog

tynian said:


> I got this tip from someone in here whom I cant remember - but kudos to them
> 
> I put my cube on an angle so the mouth is facing up, the with one side leaning against my work bench I put a towel between my knee and other side of the hot cube and push gently. In no time the level rises to the mouth and i let a little spill then seal it up for safekeeping.



I am concerned by the potential for hot wort coming into contact/close proximity with the family jewels using that technique :excl: h34r:


----------



## tynian

crozdog said:


> I am concerned by the potential for hot wort coming into contact/close proximity with the family jewels using that technique :excl: h34r:



No Jewels any where near the hot stuff for me (nor any incidents).


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I squeeze with a tea towel and ask some one to screw the lid on


----------



## Duff

KHB said:


> I had a bit of truoble squeezing my cube this morning. I usually try and use a clamp with a couple of pieces of wood.
> 
> How does everyone else do it???



I give mine a bear hug with my left arm to squeeze all the air out and screw the cap on with my right hand.


----------



## KHB

crozdog said:


> I use the "Crozdog Method"TM. This involves:
> - placing the cube slightly out from a step with the cap furthest away from the step.
> - Tip the cube back so it touches the step (the cap is now the highest part of the cube).
> - Place a towel or wad of rag on the side of the cube,
> - put knee on cloth,
> - open cap whilst gently leaning on knee to push cube in - note use your body weight ;-)
> - close cap when wort starts to escape.
> 
> too easy




I like this idea will try it next time

And if anyone was wondering i managed to get it just squeezed it and SWMABO put the lid on for me


----------



## Thommo

I fill mine so they are overflowing...no need to squeeze. If I don't have enough, I use a towel and do the left arm bear hug also.


----------



## KHB

Thommo said:


> I fill mine so they are overflowing...no need to squeeze. If I don't have enough, I use a towel and do the left arm bear hug also.





I find i cant fill mine as they are 25ltrs, get them for free so i will use them


----------



## Tony

Just brew 25 liters!

too easy!

I don gloves, squeeze and have step son do up cap.

cheers


----------



## mikelinz

Cortez The Killer said:


> I squeeze with a tea towel and ask some one to screw the lid on




bit concerned about screwing and hot wort ;9


----------



## Goofinder

Has anyone else had troubles with caps not fitting tight enough when no-chilling? I tried to squeeze all the air out of a 20L Willow jerry can today and the lid wouldn't hold the pressure. It just seemed to suck more air in a expand back out to its original size. I tried the lid off my other (identical) jerry can and it did the same thing.


----------



## PostModern

Goofinder said:


> Has anyone else had troubles with caps not fitting tight enough when no-chilling? I tried to squeeze all the air out of a 20L Willow jerry can today and the lid wouldn't hold the pressure. It just seemed to suck more air in a expand back out to its original size. I tried the lid off my other (identical) jerry can and it did the same thing.



Sounds like you lost the washer inside the lid.


----------



## Weizguy

If it's not the washer missing, then you should try to buy a lid spanner.

I recommend that you cool and pitch that wort ASAP.


----------



## Goofinder

The washer is still there. If I turn it far enough it seems to come off the thread and just slips around further.


----------



## jayandcath

Goofinder said:


> The washer is still there. If I turn it far enough it seems to come off the thread and just slips around further.



I bought two 20L cubes last week, and one leaked. When you look at the lid in wasn't flat (and no not cross threaded) but the end of the bottle wasn't ground off flush.
Took it back and swapped it.

Jay


----------



## Thirsty Boy

a little food grade lube on the seal might help the situation. Did the trick for me.


----------



## Effect

I am going to go no-chill for my beers once I start brewing - but was wondering, after reading the thread about taste testing water from the cubes and the results showed that the cubed water had a strong plastic taste.

I understand that this can happen - and that most of you put boiling water in the cube a few times (sorta like seasoning a wok).

How many times do you 'season' the cube before you would use it? Or is this fear of leaching plastic flavours sorta like HSA, and you would be willing to use the cube (after washing and sanitizing) straight from the shop?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I kept doing it till i couldn't taste plastic anymore .... it took a few goes


----------



## reviled

Thirsty Boy said:


> I kept doing it till i couldn't taste plastic anymore .... it took a few goes



Shit  I didnt even know about this, I didnt do it with my cube, glad I didnt get a plastic taste and ive used my cube for 8 batches so far!


----------



## devo

matti said:


> No chill lager is a bit tricky as you try to avoid as much trub as possible.
> I chilled my last batch over two days and had to rack it carefully off it.
> Not very confident though...
> I'll be using fining on this one I'd say if Haven't already kill it (the batch) with stressed out yeast



I'd have to agree with regards to lagers. I've never been totally happy with the numerous no chill attempts I made. Ales seem to be much more forgiving and I've never had clarity issues with either.


----------



## sav

I have been reading through this great thread for the past hour skipping a bit,I just want to know about storing cubes, there is a fair amount of people pitching next day but for me I would do a double batch and cube, And when a keg is free or close too, Ferment it giving me differant beers on tap instead of a double batch of the same beer.

Is two weeks ok in the cube without a risk of a infection any comments would be great,To me it seems like a good way to keep up instead of running out of beer.

Even picting on yeast cake cause you have on ready to go in a cube just wack it in.
And there is more pros then cons that I have been reading.


cheers 
sav.


----------



## kabooby

No problems at all. I had a porter in a cube for a few months that ended up being a great beer. Just keep it out of the sun and somewhere cool.

Kabooby


----------



## Effect

sav said:


> I have been reading through this great thread for the past hour skipping a bit,I just want to know about storing cubes, there is a fair amount of people pitching next day but for me I would do a double batch and cube, And when a keg is free or close too, Ferment it giving me differant beers on tap instead of a double batch of the same beer.
> 
> Is two weeks ok in the cube without a risk of a infection any comments would be great,To me it seems like a good way to keep up instead of running out of beer.
> 
> Even picting on yeast cake cause you have on ready to go in a cube just wack it in.
> And there is more pros then cons that I have been reading.
> 
> 
> cheers
> sav.



I wouldn't want to keep a cube for more than 6 months...anything under that is fine (if your cleaning and sanitising is up to scratch)


----------



## Cortez The Killer

sav said:


> I have been reading through this great thread for the past hour skipping a bit,I just want to know about storing cubes, there is a fair amount of people pitching next day but for me I would do a double batch and cube, And when a keg is free or close too, Ferment it giving me differant beers on tap instead of a double batch of the same beer.
> 
> Is two weeks ok in the cube without a risk of a infection any comments would be great,To me it seems like a good way to keep up instead of running out of beer.
> 
> Even picting on yeast cake cause you have on ready to go in a cube just wack it in.
> And there is more pros then cons that I have been reading.


Here's an article in the wiki which should shed more light on the subject

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=56

Cheers

Edit: Some of the IBU's have reported 1+ year storage with their cubes without issue


----------



## matti

I generally have little time to brew because of family and spending time her so my no chills effort don't stay in cubes too long, say 2-3 month max.

I have a cube sitting in my garage for a bout 2-3 weeks no and it is about 30 degrees.
Should I be concerned?


----------



## PostModern

Phillip said:


> I wouldn't want to keep a cube for more than 6 months...anything under that is fine (if your cleaning and sanitising is up to scratch)



What happens at month 7 that doesn't happen at month 6?
Ray Mills has pitched yeast on wort from a cube well over 12 months old. No dramas, and a lovely beer, by his report.



matti said:


> I generally have little time to brew because of family and spending time her so my no chills effort don't stay in cubes too long, say 2-3 month max.
> 
> I have a cube sitting in my garage for a bout 2-3 weeks no and it is about 30 degrees.
> Should I be concerned?



No more than buying a wort pack from a homebrew store  I think direct sunlight skunking your hops is the main thing to worry about. If the wort is sanitary, and it should be damn close if not completely sterile from packing so hot, I don't think you'll have issues. Maybe a little oxidising might be going on??? But your yeast will take care of that.


----------



## raven19

I am a big fan of the *minimal water usage *and *time savings *using this method.

Less time brewing makes SWMBO a little happier!


----------



## Ross

Phillip said:


> I wouldn't want to keep a cube for more than 6 months...anything under that is fine (if your cleaning and sanitising is up to scratch)




Why?? The commercially accepted best by date is 2 years...& probably fine for a long while after that dependent on storage conditions.


cheers Ross


----------



## Pollux

I love my NCing.....

I got all my bits and pieces together on Saturday and started AG (BIAB) brewing on Saturday night, which I no-chilled, then I brewed Sunday and no-chilled that....

Then realising that I was going back to work next week and stuff was going to start getting hectic around here, I decided to pitch those on mon/tues respectively and then was able to brew on mon/tues while my wife was at work and the daughter was at childcare....

This means I have two currently fermenting and two on the runway waiting a free fermenter....

Once they have been pitched, I will probably try to do another 2 ASAP to make sure I always have some ready to go.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ross said:


> Why?? The commercially accepted best by date is 2 years...& probably fine for a long while after that dependent on storage conditions.
> 
> 
> cheers Ross



Are you sure Ross? 
I would expect the hop/malt flavours and aromas to degrade long before 2 yrs. A can of goo tastes and smell completely different when it is nearing it's end date and the malt is considerably darker as well. Could the Fresh Wort kits be that much different?

Would have thought the Best by date would be half that at least.

Andrew


----------



## Ross

Hi Andrew,

2 years is the "best before" stated by the manufacturers we purchase from, which is what I'm basing my info on..
The Weyermann Extracts we sell state the same time as well.
Obviously the fresher the better, but the official line is 2 years...

cheers Ross


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ross said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> 2 years is the "best before" stated by the manufacturers we purchase from, which is what I'm basing my info on..
> The Weyermann Extracts we sell state the same time as well.
> Obviously the fresher the better, but the official line is 2 years...
> 
> cheers Ross



Thanks Ross, wasn't doubting you as such, just didn't seem to be what I had experienced.

Just shows how old some of those kits and extracts were back in the old days before I started AGing.
Thanks for the info.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## clean brewer

Ross said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> 2 years is the "best before" stated by the manufacturers we purchase from, which is what I'm basing my info on..
> The Weyermann Extracts we sell state the same time as well.
> Obviously the fresher the better, but the official line is 2 years...
> 
> cheers Ross



So, that's best before, I wonder if they have a Use By? Surely there would have to be as Best Before is only a reccomendation, not an actual "Use By" so they could be used well after that?? 

Would you still use it at the 2 year mark or beyond?


----------



## bottaboom

Gentlemen,

This is my first post here so "Hello".

I recently heard about "the brew in a bag" method and was going to try it this weekend. While reading up on that I came across the "no chill method". I don't have a cube but I do have a few extra primary fermentors. Would it be OK to use one of those? Will the hot wort melt it?

Thanks, 

Warren


----------



## geoffi

I believe quite a few blokes use fermenters for no-chill. Seems the plastic can take it.

For longer storage of course it's not a goer.


----------



## RetsamHsam

bottaboom said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> This is my first post here so "Hello".
> 
> I recently heard about "the brew in a bag" method and was going to try it this weekend. While reading up on that I came across the "no chill method". I don't have a cube but I do have a few extra primary fermentors. Would it be OK to use one of those? Will the hot wort melt it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Warren



G'day Mate,

You will be able to syphon your hot wort straight into the fermenter without a problem, you would want to pitch your yeast as soon as it hits the correct temp though.


----------



## QldKev

bottaboom said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> This is my first post here so "Hello".
> 
> I recently heard about "the brew in a bag" method and was going to try it this weekend. While reading up on that I came across the "no chill method". I don't have a cube but I do have a few extra primary fermentors. Would it be OK to use one of those? Will the hot wort melt it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Warren




Hi and Welcome

You could use a fermentor to no chill, I would recommend getting a jerry can. The main difference is a fermentor will suck air in as the beer cools risking infection. The jerry can you can squeeze to get all the air out and lock the lid up tight. The cost of a jerry can (cube) is less than one batch of beer.

Hope this helps.

QldKev


----------



## geoffi

As for cubes, one thing I just discovered: the O-ring inside the lid has a flat side and a side with ridges. It needs the flat side making contact with the cube to make the seal. So if as I do you take out the O-ring for cleaning (or as sometimes happens it just drops out) make sure you put it on properly. Otherwise your cube will not be sealed and nasty things can happen to your hard-earned wort. (Sorry about that Mark!)


----------



## bottaboom

Thank you all for the VERY QUICK replies. I'll look into buying a jerry can. I guess for my first BIAG batch I'll use the 50 foot wort chiller I just made. I want to try it out anyway.

Thanks again!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I no chill - I like to no-chill - I think no-chilling is great....

BUT

If you have a chiller already, and using water is no issue where you are located -- I'd chill. Sure, spend the $10 on a HDPE (food grade) jerry and try out no-chill. But the chances are your life will be a little easier with getting support from local brewers, replicating recipes and stuff like that if you chill traditionally.

No chill as I said is great - but IMHO you either use it because you need to (water shortages, cant afford a chiller etc etc) OR you use it because you have experience as an AG brewer and can compare your chilled brews with no-chilled brews and compensate in a reasonably educated way for teh differences.

If you are a new AG brewer, in an environment where chilling is the norm and you have no particularly pressing reason to no-chill... I would stick with the status quo and chill. Like I said - I do not think that chilling is better than no-chilling, its just that the experienced brewers in your area are far more likely to be able to give you useful advice about chilling.... and as a new brewer, you really want to be able to use the advice of the experienced brewers in your area.

Bit of experience under your belt - toss that chiller into the recycling and join us in proud and jaunty corps of No-Chillers.

TB


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## raven19

Thirsty Boy said:


> Bit of experience under your belt - toss that chiller into the recycling and join us in proud and jaunty corps of No-Chillers.




+1 :icon_cheers: 

Love the no chill simplicity, reduction in water use, and less time required on brew day.


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## geoffi

bottaboom said:


> Thank you all for the VERY QUICK replies. I'll look into buying a jerry can. I guess for my first BIAG batch I'll use the 50 foot wort chiller I just made. I want to try it out anyway.
> 
> Thanks again!



How's this for an idea: if you have the capacity, do a double batch, run off half into a cube for future use, then chill the rest for immediate use. Best of both worlds.


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## Scruffy

Geoffi said:


> How's this for an idea: if you have the capacity, do a double batch, run off half into a cube for future use, then chill the rest for immediate use. Best of both worlds.



Ahh, and there's me thinking I'm a clever twot... I'm also making the wort slightly more concentrated filling two cubes and diluting when needed.

Leave the cube(s)/jerry/bucket to equibri-ise :blink: naturally overnight - I heard a rumour that immediately bunging it into your pool for a quick slow-chill can be bad, the hot wort to some extent sterilises the cube...

From the couple or so I've slow chilled (compared to chilling in England) so far I've noticed;
More haziness? Polyclar.
Loss of hop aroma? Throw your aroma hops into the fermentor/secondary/barrel/keg
Increased bitterness? Compensate the hop additions

Should we worry about DMS?


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## PostModern

Scruffy said:


> Ahh, and there's me thinking I'm a clever twot... I'm also making the wort slightly more concentrated filling two cubes and diluting when needed.



I do exactly this. I end up with 2x20L in the fermenter by cubing 2x17L slightly-higher-than-desired OG wort. 35L post-boil volume is all I can manage in my 50L kettle. I like the system. Works really well for me. Fills my kegs, little or no waste.



Scruffy said:


> Leave the cube(s)/jerry/bucket to equibri-ise :blink: naturally overnight - I heard a rumour that immediately bunging it into your pool for a quick slow-chill can be bad, the hot wort to some extent sterilises the cube...



Yeah, this is the anecdotal experience. Sanitising solutions sanitise the cube, the long heat contact sterilises/pasteurises the inside. 



Scruffy said:


> Should we worry about DMS?



Probably not. DMS is blown off in the early part of the boil. I doubt many pre-cursors will survive evaporation in a full hour or more of boiling.


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