# Cleaning Old Copper Boiler For Brew Kettle



## Hugo (16/9/09)

I've been doing big partials for a number of years now, but recently a friend gifted me an old Malley's copper boiler retrofitted with a gas burner. It looks the perfect piece of equipment for me to move into full AG brewing, but its previous use was to melt the wax off bee frames.... hence it's not the cleanest piece of equipment. I filled it with water and boiled for a few hours, and it cleaned up a bit, but the smell of wax was very strong and the sides of the tub are still covered in wax/dirt/god-knows-what from bees.

Any advice on a cleaning method so I can get it into operation would be appreciated. I considered a heat gun, but even when the wax is liquified and runs off the walls it would still leave a residue that I'm sure will be picked up in the beer.

cheers


----------



## marlow_coates (16/9/09)

Haven't tried this, but just an idea.

Fill with water, and bring to the boil.
Wax should float to surface (again I am assuming this is right)
Allow water to cool naturally in pot over a day or two.
Wax should dry on surface and be able to be picked up and discarded.

Then all the gunk caught in the wax should have dropped out, and will be easier to get too.

Others may have more knowledge on the subject of course :icon_cheers: 

Marlow


----------



## zebba (16/9/09)

I believe baking soda is good for removing smells. A bit of baking soda and some hot water, give it a scrub, rinse and check. If it still smells, try a soak of baking soda and hot water (you don't need to keep it hot though...)

I'd be concerned about using copper though personally. I've got a feeling it's not a good idea...


----------



## Hugo (16/9/09)

Zebba said:


> I believe baking soda is good for removing smells. A bit of baking soda and some hot water, give it a scrub, rinse and check. If it still smells, try a soak of baking soda and hot water (you don't need to keep it hot though...)
> 
> I'd be concerned about using copper though personally. I've got a feeling it's not a good idea...



I know a lot of people use copper for manifolds in their mash tuns, so I didn't think it would be a problem?


----------



## chappo1970 (16/9/09)

Hugo said:


> I know a lot of people use copper for manifolds in their mash tuns, so I didn't think it would be a problem?




+1

There are also a lot of commercial brewers that put copper annodes in their expensive stainless steel systems as it is believed that copper aids in the flavour profile.

Hugo,
Try PBW? I'm not 100% sure but I feel that wax will naturally repel caustic and acids but I am sure there is something that will budge wax.


----------



## zebba (16/9/09)

Hugo said:


> I know a lot of people use copper for manifolds in their mash tuns, so I didn't think it would be a problem?


I did some googling, cause I'm bored 

http://www.retinning.com/care.htm
This suggests it's not a good idea, but also says:


> Dr. I. Herbert Scheinberg, one of the country's leading experts on copper toxicity, agrees. He contends that unless the copper has oxidized extensively enough to produce the green-blue copper salts commonly known as "verdigris," and/or highly acidic foods are to be cooked in the pot, use of the vessel is not dangerous.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity#Cookware


> When acidic foods are cooked in unlined copper cookware, or in lined cookware where the lining has worn through, toxic amounts of copper can leech into the foods being cooked.This effect is exacerbated if the copper has corroded, creating reactive salts. Many countries and states prohibit or restrict the sale of unlined copper cookware.



Summary from my research: You'll probably be alright.


----------



## OzMick (16/9/09)

I'd try to attack it with some sort of heavy duty degreaser and some heat (edit: maybe use a high pressure or steam cleaner too), that would have to make short work of the wax. And then some thorough cleaning with aforementioned chemicals to remove residues of degreaser.


----------



## Supra-Jim (16/9/09)

I believe Brew Strong also covered this in one of their podcasts. The FDA did extensive testing of a number of microbreweries that had copper vessels (pre-fermentation). The results found in there was a level of copper in the unfermented beer, but the finished beer were totally free of copper residue and hence the use of copper vessels was allowed.

Chappo, I don't think it aids flavour (AFAIK) it is used as a nutrient for yeast, they love the stuff apparently. Hence it's presence not being found post fermentation (see above). In that podcast, JP did say it was perfectly acceptable to drop a short length of 1/2" copper tube into your kettle.

Back on topic, no idea how to remove the wax.

Cheers SJ


----------



## seravitae (16/9/09)

As wax is nonpolar, it doesn't actually mix with hot water, it merely melts, and if it doesnt have a surface to adhere to, it will float as it is generally less dense than water. You may want to add something to the water to make the wax soluble. As beeswax is mostly fatty acid esters, hydrolysis of the esters to acids in the presence of base will make them soluble.

However the issue with this is, copper is also extremely reactive to bases. Addition of bicarbonate (weak base) will lead to production of copper carbonate / bicarbonates which will destroy the vessel and i doubt these bases if even soluble would be strong enough to catalyse hydrolysis.

Generally you use potassium or sodium hydroxide, but again these will destroy the vessel.



Sad to say but about the best thing you can try is what you're already doing. Alternatively add a benign solvent that could assist in dissolving the wax (ethanol may suffice here). Or if you can be really careful, acetone may work better but there is a chance of residue.


----------



## davewaldo (16/9/09)

I think petrol/turps/kerosene dissolves wax quite well... however you would need to be very careful near the gas burner and give it an extremely good clean afterwards.


----------



## enoch (16/9/09)

I have an old boiler I am intend on converting to a MLT at some time - thankfully without beeswax.

A quick google suggest that beeswax dissolves in turps. Turps and a scrubby might be worth a try.


----------



## drsmurto (16/9/09)

sera said:


> As wax is nonpolar, it doesn't actually mix with hot water, it merely melts, and if it doesnt have a surface to adhere to, it will float as it is generally less dense than water. You may want to add something to the water to make the wax soluble. As beeswax is mostly fatty acid esters, hydrolysis of the esters to acids in the presence of base will make them soluble.
> 
> However the issue with this is, copper is also extremely reactive to bases. Addition of bicarbonate (weak base) will lead to production of copper carbonate / bicarbonates which will destroy the vessel and i doubt these bases if even soluble would be strong enough to catalyse hydrolysis.
> 
> ...



To remove a non polar 'impurity' you need a non polar solvent - the old adage, like dissolves like.

Ethanol is polar, so no good.

Simplest solution would be petrol as its non polar and should readily dissolve a wax. Although mineral turpentine may be better as its a mix of aromatic hydrocarbons and paraffins IIRC

Rinse with methylated spirits and then several water washes.

EDIT - too slow!


----------



## chappo1970 (16/9/09)

Back O/T h34r: 



Supra-Jim said:


> Chappo, I don't think it aids flavour (AFAIK) it is used as a nutrient for yeast, they love the stuff apparently. Hence it's presence not being found post fermentation (see above). In that podcast, JP did say it was perfectly acceptable to drop a short length of 1/2" copper tube into your kettle.



That was it SJ! I 100% remember now. Sorry for the misinfo guys the old mind ain't what it used to be. :icon_cheers:


----------



## glaab (16/9/09)

just make honey wheat beer! :icon_drunk:


----------



## Fents (16/9/09)




----------



## katzke (16/9/09)

You all need to take a brewing history class if you think a copper boiler could be bad.

As to how to clean the wax out of the boiler I would use PBW or just baking soda (not caustic) and boil it as one advised. I just gave my copper chiller and copper mash spoon a good soak in PBW and it did not disintegrate or even pit. After that I would not worry about a bit of wax as honey is an ingredient in brewing and I bet there is some wax left in honey. You can even eat the stuff. I would not brew an expensive brew the first time but I would not worry too much.

In fact I would worry more about what is left on the outside. Would not want to set the kettle on fire. Bees wax smoked porter anyone?


----------



## zebba (16/9/09)

katzke said:


> You all need to take a brewing history class if you think a copper boiler could be bad.


The same history class would tell me to use lead pipes also...


----------



## Supra-Jim (16/9/09)

Zebba said:


> The same history class would tell me to use lead pipes also...



That's ok Zebba, after that history class (in the asbestos classroom) we're all ducking outside for a medicinal cigarette, after the govt has spray us with DDT to demonstrate how safe it is.

Cheers SJ


----------



## katzke (17/9/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> That's ok Zebba, after that history class (in the asbestos classroom) we're all ducking outside for a medicinal cigarette, after the govt has spray us with DDT to demonstrate how safe it is.
> 
> Cheers SJ



Here are some links to breweries that still use copper boilers. The Canadian one even had new boilers made. So after you take that brewing history class I suggest a modern brewing class to follow. They may teach you that copper was dropped because Stainless is stronger and easier to clean then copper. So if you want to brew a couple thousand barrels of beer then stainless is the way to go. You may also learn that some breweries did not like the results of a copper free system and have added copper back into the brewing process. Like any old craft trying to find a supplier of copper boilers is getting kind of difficult.

http://www.ccbda.org/pdfs/ccmagazinepdfs/e142b.pdf

http://www.pivovary.info/prehled/zatec/zatec_e.htm

http://www.plumpjackwines.com/plumpjackwin..._beer_notes.pdf


I think some of you need to move to the new bait and complain thread if you are not going to say anything constructive or authoritative.


----------



## newguy (17/9/09)

Good equipment score! Congratulations!

As someone else suggested, try steam cleaning it. Try turning it upside down over a boiling pot of water or a low flame to get the vessel warm but not hot. Use a wallpaper steamer to remove the gunk from the outside; with it upside down over a heat source the wax and other gunk should literally fall off. You can rent a wallpaper steamer from most hardware/home improvement stores.

If there is still a waxy film, try burning it off with a propane or butane torch but just a little at a time. You don't want it engulfed in flames. After the burn, clean with ordinary detergent and warm water, rinse, and store with baking soda solution full to brim for a few days to get rid of any lingering smell. Once you drain & rinse it, try boiling just a few litres of water, let it cool, and taste the water. If you can't detect any off flavour or smell, it's good to go.


----------



## Hugo (17/9/09)

Bees Wax Update.... turps was fantastic. 10 mins with a small green scourer and some turps and it was gleaming. I'm going to follow it up with some more conventional brewing cleaners to address some of the non-wax crud that's accumulated over the years, but the wax problem appears to have been solved. Just need to come up with a name for the first beer... Bees Dick Ale?.... Brazillian Bock?

Thanks to all for the help.


----------



## seravitae (17/9/09)

> To remove a non polar 'impurity' you need a non polar solvent - the old adage, like dissolves like.
> 
> Ethanol is polar, so no good.
> 
> ...



I suggested ethanol because it is polar, but less polar than water, and thus does dissolve some waxes... It's also safe and easy to get.

Using petrol seems to me like a massive no-no. Like i was saying to the fella in the other thread about using shellite to clean cubes.. sometimes when you consider your health, it just aint' worth it.

ethanol and water are food grade, so I don't see why people should start resorting to filling their food-grade containers with petrol.. alternatively you could try lemon/orange oil based cleaners, these can be food grade, usually in an ethanolic base for kicks.

and just to be pedantic, 'like dissolves like' doesn't routinely work in chemistry as solubility is one of the least known and predictable things. to this day it is still an 'art' in the lab to find out what something is soluble in. you can generally get a good guess but i am still suprised by my compounds on a daily basis.


----------



## drsmurto (17/9/09)

sera said:


> I suggested ethanol because it is polar, but less polar than water, and thus does dissolve some waxes... It's also safe and easy to get.
> 
> Using petrol seems to me like a massive no-no. Like i was saying to the fella in the other thread about using shellite to clean cubes.. sometimes when you consider your health, it just aint' worth it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the chemistry lesson Sera....... :lol:

If you tell me what compounds you are having trouble dissolving, maybe i could help


----------



## arogers (17/9/09)

I'm no expert, but thought I would throw my two bob in.

I bought some 60lt "fermenters" from a guy in Sydney a few years ago, they had been used for varnish or paint thinner or something. Did my best rinsing them out with "safe" HB cleaners and then did a few sacrificial batches (ie they got the drain treatment) to rid them of any other contaminants.

I've been drinking the batches brewed in them since (in fact one right now) and I haven't dropped dead (yet) :beer:


----------

