# Water to grain ratio



## rude (11/7/17)

Just about to test my single vessel build with some grain
It is a keggle with return going to the top & bottom style taken from QKev's buid
& many others on here
Might go for a APA first up say 4.5kg of grain
With 20 L water just past the bottom of the big W pot
I could lower the pot more but just thought I'de ask here what everyone else mashes with volume wise
Cheers in advanced
Rude


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## manticle (11/7/17)

I mash in with enough to hit 55 for a 5 min step, then add more for sacch rest. By the time I hit sacch/alpha rests, I'm looking at abot 3 L per kg, give or take and sometimes style dependent.

Generally speaking- 2.5 L per kg of grain is about the minimum you want to aim for. 3- 3.5 is probably preferable, beer dependent and from memory, some brewing science texts talk favourably about increasing liquor to around 6 per kg (need to locate and reference source to be sure, think it's de Clerck). Certainly full volume biab is much higher than 3.

There are reasons and consequences for thicker vs thin mash (both directions).


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## rude (12/7/17)

Yep I used to be about 2.5 - 3 L per kg
With the new 1 V will have to up it just wondering what other 1V brewers use
Cheers


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## MitchD (12/7/17)

I have a 1v similar to qldkev also. I mash in with 22l+ regardless of the grain bill and may top up soon after mash in if the water level drops too low for the element, I sparge to meet pre boil volume. 

Sounds like your malt pipe is too high to me, my element was drilled so that the bottom of the hole lines up with the weld for the base of the keggle and the malt pipe is ~20mm above the element as it installed, I've considered lowering the malt pipe even more but I haven't gotten around to it. 22 litres is about halfway up the malt pipe.


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## rude (12/7/17)

Cheers mate that was what I was after
Went as low as I could go when drilling then bent the element a tad also
Will lower the malt pipe then to 20 mm
Was thinking about buying a grain father urn for sparging heat to 78c & sparge to volume


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## MitchD (12/7/17)

That's 20mm above the element, use a thin ruler between the slots in the base to measure. 
I have my old smaller biab pot with an element as my sparge vessel, if I need to up the mash volume I add it from there


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## rude (12/7/17)

[emoji106]


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## Edd Mather 6 (2/8/17)

Being an old fashioned brewer, I've got atatched to ; Mash in with about 2.690 L/Kg , underlet : about 1.6 L/Kg , then sparging liquor ratio @ say 3.655L/kg , though it depends on the beer being brewed & gravity etc.


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## Matplat (3/8/17)

Likewise I always mash in with 20l no matter the grain bill, means the wort covers the element and the bottom of the malt pipe, so it doesn't 'rain'


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## MHB (3/8/17)

Edd Mather 6 said:


> Being an old fashioned brewer, I've got atatched to ; Mash in with about 2.690 L/Kg , underlet : about 1.6 L/Kg , then sparging liquor ratio @ say 3.655L/kg , though it depends on the beer being brewed & gravity etc.


Sorry, you might want to clarify.
Do you mean your mashing in with 1.6L/kg underlet, as part of your ~2.7L/kg, then sparging with the remaining 3.655L/kg, total of 6.355L/kg or is it all cumulative which comes to a total L:G of over 7:1 - for very mild beers?
Mark


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## Edd Mather 6 (3/8/17)

MHB said:


> Sorry, you might want to clarify.
> Do you mean your mashing in with 1.6L/kg underlet, as part of your ~2.7L/kg, then sparging with the remaining 3.655L/kg, total of 6.355L/kg or is it all cumulative which comes to a total L:G of over 7:1 - for very mild beers?
> Mark


Hi , Mashing in liquor = 2.7 L/kg , Then an additional 1.6 L/kg as underlet (not on pale ales), Then add 3.655 Saprge , Total Liquor 6.355 L/kg as a rough rule of thumb perameter for everything apart from Pale Ales, Stock Ales & Stouts , though this varies from brewery to brewery & style to style ( & region ) here in the UK , There`s a cracking book : on Brewing Science by Herbert Lloyd Hind that explains in a bit more detail , I`ll have a butchers at my copy when I get home & send you the table in metric , (It`s in Barrels per quarter (36 gal / 336 lbs malt ratio base),
Cheers ,
Edd


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## MHB (4/8/17)

No need I know the book, bit dated but has some solid basic info.
Was just curious if you were using (2.690+1.6+3.655)=7.945L/kg as your standard water bill, which would make for fairly light wort, at 100% efficiency I figure about 1.043, but more realistically around 1.038.
Mark


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## rude (4/8/17)

Have tested the 1V recirc to the top vessel 4 times now
Have been mashing in with 22 - 23 L up to 5 kg of grain done 2 APAs 1 Bitter & a Brown Ale
Got better than expected efficiency so will have to add water to my Bitter
Sparging from 15 to 20 Litres found 33 Litres in the kettle the go for my pre boil
Have the cube full plus 3 to 4 litres left
90 min boils
Ended up lowering the malt pipe so mash in water was covering the malt pipe up to a third {B W pot} depending on top recirc flow rate


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## wide eyed and legless (4/8/17)

I mash into 5 litres / kg, did you change your litres / kg for the brown ale?


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## rude (4/8/17)

Nah but got my og spot on 1052 by memory
Early days on the new system been mashing in at 55c
Pouring grain in about 4 tips & by the time its all in mash is quite thick
so have to turn the recirc on full bore to get it all wet
I then back off recirc give it a good stir
Set the bed then slowly open up again while making sure there is enough wort over the element
Ramp up to sach temp test pH 15 to 20 min in
Although g/L is high mash is quite thick due to the recirc
Loving the new rig could never keep up with the hot side now Im waiting for ferments to finish


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## Lionman (14/8/17)

When people work out L/Kg, is this the total amount of water in the tun or just the amount the grain is exposed too ie the volume of water the malt pipe?

I have been just filling my rig to the same point regardless of the grain bill, but I have been struggling with varying efficiency. I have been thinking that maybe I should be working out the volume of water in the malt pipe and keeping that consistent, in the hope of getting more consistent efficiencies.


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## rude (14/8/17)

L/Kg would be total tun but with 1 V the dead space is greater due to the element
so weather this should be taken into account not sure
Hopefully someone will chime in on this on how they go about it
Might measure the volume to the top of the element & subtract this from the total mash litres 
to see what is actually in the grain bed for a more accurate L/Kg


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## Edd Mather 6 (14/8/17)

The temperature of the Grist , as well as strike temp can affect the wort composition .Quite a few UK Breweries employed heated grist cases. The Herbert Lloyd Hind book's pretty good on the subject of liquor ratio & mash temperatures etc .


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## wide eyed and legless (14/8/17)

Lionman said:


> When people work out L/Kg, is this the total amount of water in the tun or just the amount the grain is exposed too ie the volume of water the malt pipe?
> 
> I have been just filling my rig to the same point regardless of the grain bill, but I have been struggling with varying efficiency. I have been thinking that maybe I should be working out the volume of water in the malt pipe and keeping that consistent, in the hope of getting more consistent efficiencies.


It is the amount the grain is exposed to, only just read that recently, probably Gordon Strong as I have been reading his book most nights.


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## MHB (14/8/17)

Edd Mather 6 said:


> The temperature of the Grist , as well as strike temp can affect the wort composition .Quite a few UK Breweries employed heated grist cases. The Herbert Lloyd Hind book's pretty good on the subject of liquor ratio & mash temperatures etc .


That's cos your climate sux!
Here its the middle of winter and we are having a warm patch air temps over 25oC, even when its cold it isn't freezing in most places like it is in some countries. Naturally if you were mashing in in the snow there might some advantage to warming your grist, especially if the result of the strike water calculation called for strike water hotter than 80oC.
There are plenty of more modern books than the Hind book, in metric to, which makes life a lot easier.
Mark


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## Edd Mather 6 (14/8/17)

Yeah , to be fair our weather is 'changeable' to say the least !!


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## Matplat (14/8/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is the amount the grain is exposed to, only just read that recently, probably Gordon Strong as I have been reading his book most nights.



That seems counter-intuitive to me, although there is a lesser amount of liquor in the malt pipe, the entire volume is exposed to the grain and would dilute the concentration of enzymes etc. accordingly.

I'm not sure what my effective mash thickness would be, maybe 1.5l/kg, surely there would be some consequence to that, but I get 75-80% brew house efficiency and sufficiently fermentable wort....


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## rude (14/8/17)

MHB said:


> That's cos your climate sux!
> Here its the middle of winter and we are having a warm patch air temps over 25oC, even when its cold it isn't freezing in most places like it is in some countries. Naturally if you were mashing in in the snow there might some advantage to warming your grist, especially if the result of the strike water calculation called for strike water hotter than 80oC.
> There are plenty of more modern books than the Hind book, in metric to, which makes life a lot easier.
> Mark



Got me interested now 
Would online library be a good place to find something about this Mark
cheers Rude


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## MHB (14/8/17)

I would have a look at the Handbook of Basic Brewing Calculations, you can order it from the MBAA store, or ask Steve at Brewman if he has any left, he gets them in from time to time and sells them at cost.
For the money its about the best basic introduction to what is really happening in most stages of the brewing process.
Mark


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## Mardoo (15/8/17)

Second this. One of the best brewing books I've bought.


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