# Fix For Crown Urn Boiling Issues



## npage (28/7/09)

I use a crown electric urn and had issues with it maintaining a boil. I've come up with a simple zero cost fix so now the urn can maintain a continuous rolling boil for as long as required.
The urn features a protection against boiling dry, which is not required when boiling 30+ litres of wort. 

This is what the underside of the urn looks like.




You just need to make is look like this.



No extra element, no insulation and not a cent spent. Tested boiling 35L for 90min with no trouble at all.

Good luck and happy brewing.


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## Bribie G (28/7/09)

In other words just pull out the two brownies? Sounds like a great idea. Reminds me of an Arnie movie where the hero is agonising over whether to cut the red or the blue wire to disarm the nuclear warhead when the LED display is ticking down from 20 seconds, 19 seconds...


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## captaincleanoff (28/7/09)

very interesting.. any chance you could give us a more detailed description on how to do it drunkskunk?

Not sure I can tell exactly what you have done in the photos


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## davewaldo (28/7/09)

So are you saying its the Boil dry system which kicks in and stop a full and prolonged boil?


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## Thirsty Boy (28/7/09)

looks like the little jigger in there is a temperature switch - things get to 100 + and it cuts out so the urn cant boil (well for long anyway) and therefore cant boil dry -- or maybe as soon as it gets over 100 it figures things have dried up and its time to cut the power. A wort boil is at a little over 100C so it cant tell the difference between that and boiling dry.

God help me but...... Lethal Corpse??? does it look like this fix is dangerous in any way other undoing the boil dry protection?

If not it looks like a "problem solved" scenario for Crown urn BIABers

(provisionally) Nice work drunkskunk.

TB


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## Bribie G (28/7/09)

Seeing as the Crownies are a good fifty dollars cheaper than the Birkos, if this 'fix' does the trick it should chuck some extra business Ross's way as well.


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## RobB (28/7/09)

It's odd that it needs that modification. The boil dry funtion shouldn't kick in unless it has boiled dry! Are you sure it's not the thermostat you are disabling?

I have a Birko and the thermostat goes up to 110 C, and since boiling water can't exceed 100 C it never switches off.


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## npage (28/7/09)

> It's odd that it needs that modification. The boil dry funtion shouldn't kick in unless it has boiled dry! Are you sure it's not the thermostat you are disabling?
> 
> I have a Birko and the thermostat goes up to 110 C, and since boiling water can't exceed 100 C it never switches off.




The crown thermostat also goes up to 110c but the thermostat is not the issue.




> So are you saying its the Boil dry system which kicks in and stop a full and prolonged boil?



Yep. Well more like it 'kicks out', it's wired in series on the active wire between the thermostat and the element.



> very interesting.. any chance you could give us a more detailed description on how to do it drunkskunk?



I simply disconnected the active wires from the element and the boil dry temperature switch, then reconnected the active wire (with the connection to the light) onto the element terminal.


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## andrewsydes (28/7/09)

I've spoken to Crown but the engineer had already left for the day.
Hopefully I'll have an answer in the morning on whethr this is advised or not.

Cheers Ross


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## LethalCorpse (28/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> looks like the little jigger in there is a temperature switch - things get to 100 + and it cuts out so the urn cant boil (well for long anyway) and therefore cant boil dry -- or maybe as soon as it gets over 100 it figures things have dried up and its time to cut the power. A wort boil is at a little over 100C so it cant tell the difference between that and boiling dry.
> 
> God help me but...... Lethal Corpse??? does it look like this fix is dangerous in any way other undoing the boil dry protection?
> 
> ...


Yeah, looks alright, assuming those two active ends left hanging are either end of the link between the cutout and the element, and are hence no longer live (best to remove them altogether). You now, of course, no longer have boil dry protection, which is a bit of a fire hazard, but mostly just a hazard to your element. With 30L of wort it's unlikely to ever boil dry, but you may accidentally turn it on when it's empty (my kind of move). You could replace the boil dry thermostat with a float switch inside the vessel, this is what I'm doing. You could probably also cut out the thermostat - it's not doing anything useful is it? It's not even remotely accurate on temperature for heating strike water, and when you boil you just want it to go hell for leather (you may want to be able to dial down the power output, but a thermostat doesn't do this). Replace it with a PID or even on-off temperature controller and it'll give you accurate strike temps without holding a glass thermometer in there


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## Pollux (28/7/09)

This does sound interesting.......

And I was just about to go out next week and purchase a new immersion element.....


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## npage (28/7/09)

andymcg said:


> I've spoken to Crown but the engineer had already left for the day.
> Hopefully I'll have an answer in the morning on whethr this is advised or not.
> 
> Cheers Ross



There's no way crown will advise anybody to play around with the wiring on their product. Would void the warranty for sure.


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## andrewsydes (28/7/09)

drunkskunk said:


> There's no way crown will advise anybody to play around with the wiring on their product. Would void the warranty for sure.




Agreed, but I'd like to hear their concerns, & hoping maybe they can set the cut out a little higher in temp, so we can boil wort & still have the boil dry protection. Will report back.

cheers Ross


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## Ross (28/7/09)

andymcg said:


> Agreed, but I'd like to hear their concerns, & hoping maybe they can set the cut out a little higher in temp, so we can boil wort & still have the boil dry protection. Will report back.
> 
> cheers Ross




Wow!!! the site suddenly had me logged in as andymcg - Not sure how that happened :unsure: - had to log out & in again 

Cheers Ross


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## Wisey (29/7/09)

BribieG said:


> Seeing as the Crownies are a good fifty dollars cheaper than the Birkos, if this 'fix' does the trick it should chuck some extra business Ross's way as well.



Birko 40L $230 + GST

http://www.ljstuart.com.au/shop/shop393.html

Whats a crown worth?


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## 3GumsBrewing (30/7/09)

Sold on the idea of a Crown now.
Hurry up birthday money  

DK


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## Bribie G (30/7/09)

Just a point that Lethal made above, on brewday I have an electric kettle and an urn in the garage running off one power point but can't run the two together because they trip the ELCB so I usually start brewday by boiling a kettle, as it's always handy to have a kettle of boiling water handy for stuff. Then I attend to the urn. Two brews ago I accidentally put the wrong plug in, was faffing about with grain weighing etc and noticed an aroma of burnt toast, then realised it was the empty urn  - switched it off immediately but it had built up enough heat to trip out the boil-dry reset button. No harm done but in the case of a Crownie you would want to get yourself into a good bulletproof 'check list' routine to avoid cooking $250 of equipment.

Wisey, great price on the Birko and I believe you can get them delivered anywhere for about 20 bucks so that beats most Crown prices hey.


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## brando (30/7/09)

Wisey, great price on the Birko and I believe you can get them delivered anywhere for about 20 bucks so that beats most Crown prices hey.
[/quote]


Bribie, do you mean LJ Stuart will deliver for $20?


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## growler (30/7/09)

BribieG,

O/T

Just found your next upgrade on that ljstuart site.......

Start saving your pennies for this..... http://www.ljstuart.com.au/shop/shop2232.html

and a tame sparky to install......  

growler


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## flattop (30/7/09)

I got my Crown for $220 delivered new from Evilbay.... 
The mod looks ok but you are effectively taking out a 240v safety mechanism. In the end it is a mechanism that the Birko probably doesn't have so by law it is "probably" not required.
I use my thermostat to get to strike temp, it's reasonably accurate, say within 5*c, so i set a timer for Sunday morning, an hour before i set my alarm my urn starts, and when i wake up my Crown is sitting at around 65*c waiting for me.

What is a float switch? Is it the same as a mercury switch?


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## LethalCorpse (30/7/09)

Like this. The plastic is polypropylene and the gasket is butadiene-acrylonitrile rubber ( I spoke to the supplier)


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## Bribie G (30/7/09)

growler said:


> BribieG,
> 
> O/T
> 
> ...



Mate that would probably appeal to the guys on another thread who are doing a 800L brew. Might need a cherry picker to hoist the bag, though :lol: 

As for the Birko Postage, they are not actually all that big in the box and I have sent similar boxes of SWMBO's art work all over Australia for as little as thirteen bucks.


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## mrpolly (30/7/09)

LethalCorpse said:


> Like this. The plastic is polypropylene and the gasket is butadiene-acrylonitrile rubber ( I spoke to the supplier)



So what temp would this be good to?


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## flattop (30/7/09)

ok got it, but it means drilling a hole in the base of the urn to fit the switch. 
As i use the urn only for brewing i would rather bypass the boil dry switch and be done with it than fit the float switch.
Brewing is not something i do and forget it, i set my urn up and fill it the night before then plug in the power and test the timer.
Then i check the water level again and check the timer again.


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## LethalCorpse (30/7/09)

mrpolly said:


> So what temp would this be good to?


125 apparently


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## crundle (2/8/09)

So - this mod comes out AFTER I get my immersion element!!! <_< 

If anyone is able to, would they be able to post up a 'how to' with pictures for those who might follow this mod?

cheers,

Crundle


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## flattop (2/8/09)

Agree with Crundle, the original pics are hard to follow, are the two browns just disconnected or joined together?


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## Bribie G (2/8/09)

crundle said:


> So - this mod comes out AFTER I get my immersion element!!! <_<
> 
> If anyone is able to, would they be able to post up a 'how to' with pictures for those who might follow this mod?
> 
> ...



You can make a bucket o death real cheap now and do double batches :icon_cheers: 
I inspected a Crownie for the first time when I was in Ross's last week and it's a nice piece of kit. I noticed that the one in Ross's shop has a stainless steel insert in the top like a false 'lid' with a big basket thing in the middle that projects downwards into the urn like a sort of tea strainer. Does that come standard with the urn (I can imagine it being used with Bushells to make tea for fifty old chooks at a time) or was that an addon? It got me thinking all sorts of hop related thoughts. Didn't have time to enquire and the staff were flat out as usual :icon_cheers:


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## Pollux (2/8/09)

It's a separate item that can be purchased from Crown if you want it...

As for a pictorial guide, I'm happy to bust out the camera when I do mine next week.


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## crundle (4/8/09)

Pollux said:


> It's a separate item that can be purchased from Crown if you want it...
> 
> As for a pictorial guide, I'm happy to bust out the camera when I do mine next week.



Thanks Pollux, remember to dumb it down suitably for me!

cheers,

Crundle


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## flattop (8/8/09)

Waiting for an update Pollux, i considered ploughing ahead but i don't want to damage the urn so todays brew was on an unmodded crown....


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## Pollux (8/8/09)

Sorry guys, been away on the Gold Coast for 5 nights, just landed back today.

If I can find time tomorrow, I'll do it, otherwise it will have to wait until Friday as I'm off to visit the parents on Monday for 3 nights....


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## flattop (8/8/09)

Lucky you, i'm stuck at home cooking !!!!!


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## crundle (10/8/09)

Looks like I may need some help here, I tried the modification today based on the pictures, and it all seemed to go ok, everything looked the same as in the photos which is a good start, but when it came time to heat up some water for a brew, I was finding that the light came on to show power was going to the element, but there was no action from the element. Normally there would be bubbling from the element to show that it is heating up water, or at the least I should see convection currents just above the element.

I added hot water from the laundry as normal, and when I turned the dial on the urn the light clicked on and I heard an audible click at 50 degrees which normally tells me the temperature of the water according to the temperature sensor on the bottom of the urn.

Being a brew day, I have opted to use my immersion element for this brew, but hopefully the issue can be sorted out, as this mod looks like being very useful for many users of this urn.

Here are some photos I took during the procedure, so hopefully we can sort out what I have done wrong so others can avoid this.




View of the 3 plugs



With the plug attached to the lid



Prior to being taken off



After being taken off



Being left off as in the original posters photos


Crundle


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## bill_gill85 (10/8/09)

Crundle,

It looks like the wire connected to the middle of the element is not actually connected to anything. The connector with the brown & white wire appears to be the wire that is live. The white wire goes to the neon lamp & the brown wire goes back to the thermostat.


**DISCLAIMER**
**billgill is not a sparky, nor affiliated to Crown. No responsibility is taken for any property damage or loss of life caused by following the above advice.**


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## crundle (10/8/09)

billgill said:


> Crundle,
> 
> It looks like the wire connected to the middle of the element is not actually connected to anything. The connector with the brown & white wire appears to be the wire that is live. The white wire goes to the neon lamp & the brown wire goes back to the thermostat.
> 
> ...



LOL! love the disclaimer, actually pretty ironclad from a legal perspective also!

I will open it up again tomorrow to have a closer look at what is connected to what to get an idea of what is happening with it. My brewday turned out well regardless, but I an keen to see this modification work out. I will take the urn to work tomorrow to see what the sparkies there have to say (and put up with the inevitable head shaking and raucous laughter aimed at me). I am a man much a'feared by electricity, so when I saw it not working, I disconnected it quick smart and posted the results up to make sure others were warned.

Hope to get it solved tomorrow, so will let you know how I messed it up!

Crundle


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## crundle (13/8/09)

Alrighty! Thanks to DrunkSkunk for getting back to me to let me know what I did wrong, here (hopefully) is the process that will get the Crown urn to boil continuously rather than switching on and off resulting in a fairly poor evaporation rate of about 7%/hour in my case.

The underside is held on with a single screw, and it may take some effort to dislodge the bottom from the urn once this is undone. I had to carefully use a metal skewer to stick in the screwhole while pushing down on the side of the bottom to get it off. NOTE: The bottom of the urn is attached to the urn by an earth wire connection which is fairly short, so be gentle when removing the bottom cover so as not to damage the wire or connections. You will need to undo the connection on the bottom cover to be able to work freely.





You will see the element in the centre of the urn, with 3 wires connected to it.





Take all three wires off and reconnect the brown wire with a white wire connected to it onto the end of the element as shown below. The other connections that you have taken off are actually both ends of the same wire, which is now not connected to anything at all. You may remove them if you wish, but I have left mine in case the urn ever needs to do normal duty as a hot water urn (not likely but I have left it there anyhow).





Now it is time to reconnect the green earth wire back up to the bottom cover and put the screw back in. You are now done and should be able to enjoy a nice vigorous boil from your Crown urn, giving you the best of both worlds with a concealed element for ease of cleaning and now a boil as good as a Birko!

Once again thanks to DrunkSkunk for putting this idea out there, and for helping an idiot like me get the wiring right finally!

Crundle


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## lastdrinks (13/8/09)

Top work Crundle, straight forward clear instructions even i could follow. Will give this a try when i get the time.


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## crundle (13/8/09)

lastdrinks said:


> Top work Crundle, straight forward clear instructions even i could follow. Will give this a try when i get the time.



Trust me lastdrinks - if I can do it, anyone can. I am good with some stuff, but electrical thingy's are not amongst them....

Crundle


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## Pollux (13/8/09)

Good to see someone got around to doing a clear set of instructions while I've been away....

I'll be doing mine tomorrow, stocks are getting low and I have new kegs to fill.


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## Bribie G (13/8/09)

So have you fired up a test run yet? Crundle, Crundle ............... oh no don't tell me that was your house on the 7 News ............ :huh: :huh:


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## crundle (13/8/09)

BribieG said:


> So have you fired up a test run yet? Crundle, Crundle ............... oh no don't tell me that was your house on the 7 News ............ :huh: :huh:



Nah, not my house, and didn't get to fire it up yet, will give it a wet run tomorrow to see how she goes, and will report...

Crundle


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## crundle (14/8/09)

Cranked it up today with 20 litres of water in it and it works a treat. Seems to get to the set temperature quicker also, and then kicks out nicely when the temp is hit as normal, and the boil was incredible!

As always though, now that this hasn't got anti boil dry protection, it should not be left on unattended.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Pollux (16/8/09)

I used mine for the first time yesterday since rewiring it....

Had it setup on the timer for an early morning mash in, not sure whether it was the re-wiring or the new yoga mat insulation but it hit 70deg sooner than I expected. 

As for the boil, much more vigorous....I actually missed my target volume, but I can always top it up with some water when it comes time to pitch...One small issue I discovered in alot of caramelised wort on the element after a 60min boil, I had to leave it to soak overnight as I was ducking out for the afternoon....


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## Thirsty Boy (16/8/09)

Pollux - if your biab element is anything like my RIMS element and also the immersion elements I have used for boiling... then what is stuck to your element is less caramelized wort, than a bit of a build up of break material. Forms right on the surface of the element.

If you hook into it with a scrubbing brush straight away, while its still nice and wet... it comes of pretty easy. If it doesn't all come away, an overnight soak in PBW cleans it up the remainder so it wipes away with a rag.

TB


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## Pollux (16/8/09)

Actually, you are probably right on that one.....

It was coming off yesterday, but I was in a rush so chose to leave it overnight. Came off dead easy this morning..


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## randyrob (17/8/09)

LethalCorpse said:


> Like this. The plastic is polypropylene and the gasket is butadiene-acrylonitrile rubber ( I spoke to the supplier)




Hey LC,

These things are useless, while the outside may be suitable for brewing purposes the magnet that is on the inside is glued 
to the plastic and it doesn't take many uses to come unglued rendering the float switch unusable. 

I can dissassemble one and take some pics if i'm not explaining it very well

Rob.


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## randyrob (17/8/09)

the magnet is glued right at the bottom of the float




after a few uses the heat dislodges the magnet making it free to roam around the body of the float making it unusable.

Rob.


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## Doogiechap (17/8/09)

randyrob said:


> View attachment 29822
> 
> 
> the magnet is glued right at the bottom of the float
> ...



Thanks for the heads up Rob 
Just saved $20  
(As long as my brain doesn't fail me on brewday)


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## LethalCorpse (17/8/09)

hmm...disappointing. Some silicone down there should hold it an place and seal it up pretty good, no?


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## 3GumsBrewing (18/8/09)

crundle said:


> Alrighty!



Thanks for the great post, I am sourcing one as we speak, cheapest i can find is from this mob - Linky. Evilbay is only turning up 20 and 30 L ones at the moment.

DK


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## crundle (18/8/09)

DK said:


> Thanks for the great post, I am sourcing one as we speak, cheapest i can find is from this mob - Linky. Evilbay is only turning up 20 and 30 L ones at the moment.
> 
> DK



Great stuff DK! It might pay to have a look at Craftbrewer, I believe Ross stocks them at a pretty good price too (no affiliation).

You will love using the urn for brewing, nice and easy, quick cleanup and stainless bling! Good also for use as a HLT if you ever go to 3 vessel brewing, so you will have this bit of equipment for life. Let us know how you go with the mod when you get it, and how your brew turns out.

Itching to get brewing again myself, bloody hard to pick what to brew though!

cheers,

Crundle


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## Macca17 (19/8/09)

Thanks for the guide, worked a treat on my new urn, getting closer to my first AG brew


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## 3GumsBrewing (4/9/09)

Just ordered my 40L Crown Urn from here - Catering Wholesalers who are in Botany and great to deal with. Excellent price as well - $262.35 all up.

No affiliation, just a bit of info for fellow Sydney brewers who hate paying postage!  

DK


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## crundle (5/9/09)

Sounds like a good price DK, well purchased!

A heads up for those who do the modification, nothing serious, but I have noticed on two brews that I have done since the mod that my powerboard has cut out on each brew at least once, whereas it has never done that before, so obviously it is drawing a nice load fairly constantly throughout the boil now whereas it seemed to work in spurts previously.

So make sure you have a good power supply to run the urn that is free from any other device, as it is pulling a fairly strong 2400W during the boil. Mine was teamed up with the electric roller door on the garage and still overloaded, so now I run it from the power supply I used with my immersion element and have not had the problem occur since.

Crundle


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## flattop (16/9/09)

Kudos to Drunk Skunk, i modded my urn yesterday and mashed last night. Got a great rolling boil and my evap rates were higher than usual.
I run mine from a 10A powerboard on a dedicated circuit but haven't had any overload issues.


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## crundle (16/9/09)

flattop said:


> Kudos to Drunk Skunk, i modded my urn yesterday and mashed last night. Got a great rolling boil and my evap rates were higher than usual.
> I run mine from a 10A powerboard on a dedicated circuit but haven't had any overload issues.



Yep, well done to Drunk Skunk, mine has been used on about 6 brews since the mod and has been fantastic, with my evap rate at roughly 15%/hour when the urn is outside in the wind with a camping mat around it. I just wish that you had come up with it BEFORE I forked out for an immersion element to get around the poor boil when the Crown is unmodded!!!

Crundle


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## crundle (30/9/09)

Does anyone else think this thread might be good enough to have airlocked considering probably half of the people who BIAB using urns will have Crown urns?

I think the disclaimers on the process are clear enough.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Pollux (30/9/09)

I support that idea crundle....

I also noticed something interesting today.


I did two brews, one being a SMASH (5kg JW ale), the other being what I have decided to describe as a Mild UK Bitter (4kg Marris Otter).

For some reason the boil on the second one was ALOT more vigorous, no idea why? I used similar water volumes (adjusted to account for loss to grain) to achieve nearly identical pre boil volumes, but I lost more to evap on the second one and also could visually see the difference...


Any ideas?


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## EK (30/9/09)

Can anyone tell me why it is that this problem with the Crown urn occurs? If the thermostat goes to 110, why doesn't this boil dry switch net let the liquid boil constantly...even if it kicked in and out every 30 seconds the wort wouldn't cool 10 degrees in that time.

I have done 3 BIAB brews, and only the third one didn't have a rolling boil. The only differences (that I can think of) were:
1. I added 5L of boiling water at Mash Out. The first two times I just turned the thermostat up.
2. There was a breeze the day I did the 3rd brew. The other two days there was no wind and they worked fine.

On the 3rd brew: when the thermostat kicked back in the wort was boiling in 2 seconds..as though it was a fraction of a degree below boiling point.

Also, what would be the ramifications to the beer if a rolling boil was not achieved?

:icon_cheers: 
EK


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## crundle (1/10/09)

@ Pollux - were these brews after the modification, or haven't you made the modification yet? I have noticed that before the mod the boils were a tad inconsistent also, perhaps the darker the beer the more vigorous the boil? If you measured the volumes to be noticeably different, it would make for an interesting experiment. Perhaps a hypothesis might be that darker liquids absorb more heat and hence boil more vigorously? Nothing to back that up of course, but I might pay more attention in future to the evaporation rate, assuming that I can remove other factors as much as possible, such as variance in wind speed outside when brewing, which should affect the evaporation rate.

@ EK - I would say that as the urn is designed to heat water only and not keep it at a constant rolling boil for its intended purpose, that the switch to stop it boiling too hard is fairly sensitive and is factory set to avoid excess evaporation rates. The water itself can only reach its boiling point, and no further till the liquid has completely evaporated, so it can only reach around 100-103 (whatever the boiling point of the wort is).

So the temperature may get to 103 maximum, then switch off and get below 100, probably not a drop of 10 degrees.

As for the day you brewed in the breeze, did you use a camping mat around the outside of the urn to help it stop loss of heat through the sidewall? The breeze should help with evaporation, but also will cool the urn if it is not insulated. Evaporation - Wikipedia This is of interest as a fan or similar can make for much faster evaporation, as will boiling outside depending on the humidity in the air. If the humidity is high (around 90%) then the air has much less ability to remove water vapour from the air than if the humidity was 20%

My understanding is that a rolling boil is required to remove certain undesirables from the wort and helps in removing DMS. A less vigorous boil will not do as good a job of removing these undesirables, which will be more noticeable in lagers (DMS especially). Others may be able to fill in more technical details, but I have read and understood that a vigorous boil is a good thing.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Pollux (1/10/09)

Both post mod, same conditions, same camping mat insulation.....

Although, I did just think of something, the more vigorous boil was done in the afternoon......Maybe the ambient made enough of a difference??


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## crundle (1/10/09)

Pollux said:


> Both post mod, same conditions, same camping mat insulation.....
> 
> Although, I did just think of something, the more vigorous boil was done in the afternoon......Maybe the ambient made enough of a difference??



It might be a factor I guess, if the 2400W element is working at the edge of its capacity to keep 30+ litres of wort (not water) on the boil, then a higher ambient temperature would mean less effort is being expended to counter the cooling effect of the ambient temperature. 

Wort should have a higher boiling point to begin with, and as the water evaporates and the wort increases in gravity the boiling point should move a bit higher, countered by less volume to boil.

I know that prior to the mod, I was fine brewing in warmer weather, but in winter it became almost impossible to get enough evaporation outside in my usual 90 minutes. Since I started using a camping mat around the outside of the urn it improved, and was assisted by using an immersion element also, but now with the mod I only use the immersion element to cut down my heating times as using both at the beginning of the boil will lead to boil overs.

Crundle


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## JonnyAnchovy (3/10/09)

I've just done the most stupid/dangerous thing ever. 

I've had a 40L crown for few months now, and have done over 6 perfect brews in it. Never had to do the mod - always achieved a strong rolling boil with no issues. 

Today I'm brewing a trad bock, and for the first time the boil-dry protection issue kept happening - I had 27L of near-boiling wort in the kettle, and no way of achieving a rolling boil - then I remembered this thread. 

Here's where the stupid part comes in...... While balancing the urn, full of scalding hot wort on the side of my table I performed the mod one-handed, squatting directly under the urn. It worked, and its now on a nice vigorous boil, but in retrospect one slip would have been disastrous. 

Basically I just want to recommend that NO ONE EVER DO THIS. If you need to do the mod, don't ever risk it with a full kettle - I'm still kicking myself over just how idiotic I was to attempt it. so fkkn happy nothing bad happened.


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## LethalCorpse (3/10/09)

You did remember to unplug it first, at lest, didn't you?

Did you forget the brewday rule? Don't start drinking until you make the first hop addition.


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## JonnyAnchovy (3/10/09)

LethalCorpse said:


> You did remember to unplug it first, at lest, didn't you?
> 
> Did you forget the brewday rule? Don't start drinking until you make the first hop addition.



Did unplug, so at least I wouldn't get both 3rd degree burns and electrocuted. Sad thing is I haven't had a single drink today - what does that say about my sober intelligence?


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## crundle (3/10/09)

Whoa!

Um, yeah, I did mine while it was empty and unplugged, and sober. Glad to see you didn't suffer any adverse effects, but wow, you should put up a printout of that post of yours before you ever do any mods again!

Aye Carumba!!!

Crundle


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## bullsneck (29/12/09)

Just did the mod, very easy.

Unusual brew today. It's my third on the urn, absolute shite boil (if you could call it that). No problems before that however.

Just modded it, testing a boil now.


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## lastdrinks (24/1/10)

First boil after the mod and it is night and day. Maybe not a massive rolling boil but compared to before fantastic.


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## crundle (25/1/10)

Excellent stuff lastdrinks!

I agree it is not the most amazing boil (I think the Birko has better because it has an exposed element), but it is certainly a great improvement over the standard Crown 'boil'.

Great to hear it went well, and hope it improves your brewdays.

cheers,

Crundle


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## leiothrix (15/3/10)

*WARNING*

I modded my crown urn 10 brews ago. Got a reasonable boil out of it and was happy.

On Saturday I did two back-to-back. For the second boil I noticed it was a bit pathetic, and figured maybe it was just due to the cooler weather and that I should get a camping mat to insulate.

Bit later I realised that the element was switching on and off, which it shouldn't do as the boil-dry protection was removed and the thermostat was set to 110*C.

Then I noticed the burning plastic smell.

The good news is that the beer will be ok. I got ~26L instead of the 24L that I was expecting, but I'm sure it will still be good.

Bad news is that the urn cooked itself.

You can see the temperature switch at the bottom of the pic. It was not electrically connected at all, but you can see the insulation on the crimp connectors is nice and black. The active leads in the middle of the element are the same. You can also see the neutral leads on the element discolouring, and a bit of discolouration on the right-most active on the thermostat.

I'm guessing that the element is not rated for continuous use, and relied on the temperature switch to stop it from killing itself. That or I'm just unlucky and the element has failed on its own. Either way the temperature switch would have shut it down.

Obviously this could potentially have caused fire, electrical shock, and worst of all loss of beer.

At the moment I'm thinking of drilling a hole in the back and adding one of these. Open to any other options though.

(And Ross -- I don't suppose that there's any chance of a warranty claim? It was only modified slightly  )

Rob.


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## Pollux (15/3/10)

Wow, that is impressive.....


On the topic of Crown mods, I broke my sight tube the other day, removed the fitting today to get the last bit of tube out.......Now tempted to use the existing hole to mount a thermowell for when I build my full rig and the urn becomes a HLT alone.....

Comments?


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## leiothrix (16/3/10)

Personally I like the site tube on the urn. I've marked mine off in 5L increments with permanent marker, so it's nice and easy to tell how much water is in it. Depending on what your pouring the water into (e.g. an esky) it will also make it easy to see how much to fill it by.

Craftbrewer have replacement tubes for $10 if you want to replace it (here).

Rob.


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## Pollux (16/3/10)

I'm aware of the replacements, just considering options.....

Might go back to a sight glass for now, at $10 you can't go wrong.


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## goldstar (22/3/10)

I also have to report my 40 litre Crown urn went pop yesterday. I've done 15 brews with mine without the boil-dry protection switch in the circuit.

I noticed the power light coming on as per normal but the temperature on my PID controller was decreasing over time. There was a slightly funky smell that I hoped wasn't from my mashing weizen grain bill.
I haven't looked underneath as yet but I suspect I will find something similar to leiothrix. For my money, the thermostat isn't rated for a continuous 10A passing through it and has cooked itself. 

Assuming the heating element hasn't crapped itself, I intend to remove the thermostat from the circuit and wire up my PID controller directly to it. I'd left the thermostat in there previously for convenience.

If the element is dead, I'll be going to Tobin.
http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm

See item HU032 (4379CR - 2400W Crown Urn element). Just need to check this is definitely the right element for the urn.
I also found out yesterday that K-Mart sell cheap 15 litre pots. Got there in the end!


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## MarkBastard (22/3/10)

goldstar please keep us updated.

I have done the bypass but mine is still working. I'm thinking maybe I should connect the boil dry back up. I never did do a batch without the modification.


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## leiothrix (22/3/10)

I think that perhaps the whole lot is not rated for continuous operation. The wires under the element (including those on the not connect boil dry protector) were all burnt black and nasty.

One of the wires on the thermostat was also starting to discolour. If the thermostat was the problem I'd expect for all of the burnt wires to be around it rather than the element.

I'm going to get a S/S sheathed element, drill a hole in the back of the urn and use that. I'll rip the guts out of the bottom too.

I don't think the urns are made for boiling beer. If I had my time again I'd get the element & temp controller that I'm planning to get along with a 50L S/S pot from allquip. The pot is cheaper and larger than the urn at $215 too.


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## thesunsettree (22/3/10)

leiothrix said:


> I think that perhaps the whole lot is not rated for continuous operation. The wires under the element (including those on the not connect boil dry protector) were all burnt black and nasty.
> 
> One of the wires on the thermostat was also starting to discolour. If the thermostat was the problem I'd expect for all of the burnt wires to be around it rather than the element.
> 
> ...



hi mate,

having used them (ss urn) how would u rate them as a hlt (ie without wort boil??)

cheers
matt


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## leiothrix (22/3/10)

As a HLT I reckon it would be fine. The main issue though is the temperature set by the thermostat is only a rough guess. It is fairly close though. 

What I did was set it to 70* and put it on a timer. In the morning I'd have a pot of hot water waiting for me. I'd measure the temperature with a glass thermometer, and roughly speaking, for every 1* it's over my target strike temperature I'd draw off 1L water and replace it with 1L tap water. Give a bit of a stir and measure the temp again.

Or you could set the thermostat to full and control it with a PID or something.

CB has the 40L Crown urn for $274. Allquip has a 50L S/S pot for $215 (or $85 for aluminium) +$60 for an element gets you more or less the same thing.


I'm thinking that overall a pot is better though. Gives you more flexibility in that you can put holes where you want them. (Or I could be just a bit pissed off due to stuffing it up and having to replace bits).

Rob.


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## thesunsettree (22/3/10)

leiothrix said:


> As a HLT I reckon it would be fine. The main issue though is the temperature set by the thermostat is only a rough guess. It is fairly close though.
> 
> What I did was set it to 70* and put it on a timer. In the morning I'd have a pot of hot water waiting for me. I'd measure the temperature with a glass thermometer, and roughly speaking, for every 1* it's over my target strike temperature I'd draw off 1L water and replace it with 1L tap water. Give a bit of a stir and measure the temp again.
> 
> ...



cheers rob,]

i guess for a hlt it matters not a lot if its aluminium, vs cost saving..

cheers 
matt


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## goldstar (23/3/10)

Well I pulled apart my urn last night and found that the general condition of the thermostat and wiring was good. The element however is beyond repair and requires replacement. I'm reviewing solutions to replace this element with something that is more robust.
I'm favouring the idea of using an exposed element that can be wrapped around the diameter of the kettle. Any suggestions are welcome.


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## LethalCorpse (23/3/10)

Probably the reason these elements are blowing under continuous power is that they are concealed, ie, > half of their surface area is in contact with air, not liquid. The heat can't be removed from the air side as easily as it can on the liquid side. A fully submerged element, which comes in from the bottom or side of the urn, will have a much better chance of survival.


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## MarkBastard (23/3/10)

Damn this sucks. I really did my research before buying the Crown and then a couple of weeks after this comes out <_<


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## Fents (23/3/10)

LethalCorpse said:


> Probably the reason these elements are blowing under continuous power is that they are concealed, ie, > half of their surface area is in contact with air, not liquid. The heat can't be removed from the air side as easily as it can on the liquid side. A fully submerged element, which comes in from the bottom or side of the urn, will have a much better chance of survival.



ala the birko urns.

so glad i got them in the end. i dont even boil wort with them just use as HLT's.

so Lethal do you think the OP should get a mod to make a bold heading at the first post of this thread with a warning not to do the mod to the crowns?


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## JonnyAnchovy (23/3/10)

crap. I'm going to spend my next few brewdays sniffing the base of my kettle and anticipating The Worst.


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## EK (23/3/10)

Has anyonw else done 15+ brews with a Crown urn? Can you tell us fellow Crown owners how the urn is holding up?

:icon_cheers: 
EK


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## MarkBastard (23/3/10)

Does anyone use the Crown Urn without the modification?

I brew in my garage with no wind and probably 25 degrees + ambient on a cold day, and I have it permanently insulated with a camping mat. Should I give it a go with the boil-dry in place?

Does the boil dry just literally cut out the element during the boil? If so, how long for? A few seconds? A few minutes?


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## Pollux (23/3/10)

With the boil dry in place, it cuts out constantly, it will basically hit a boil, then stop, then boil again, then stop.....

And thanks to whoever just jinxed me, I just check and I've done 14 boils since I did the mod.......

Given I plan on using this urn as a HLT in my system once I get my larger pot and burner, I might just wire the boil dry back in and suffer the poxy boil for the next few batches.


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## MarkBastard (23/3/10)

So I guess it's basically designed to keep coffee or tea close to 100 degrees but not actually constantly boiling. Makes sense I guess. Just sucks because mine is working really well for me. I'm really happy with it, but really unhappy at the prospect of the element just blowing one day. FFS. Guess I should have got a Birko after all but it sucks because I was really careful before hand. Can't win them all I suppose.


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## JMan (23/3/10)

Long time reader, but finally something i can add to!  

I've had mine blow as well, though i suspected i may have had the temp set too high. 

You can get a replacement element direct from http://www.crownindustries.com.au/ , just send them an email. I paid $58.52 shipped.

For now i've got an over-the-side element on its way, and the Crown will become a HLT once i've got the funds to upgrade.


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## Pollux (27/3/10)

I just found another folder of recipes in beersmith, forgot they were there...

Puts my urn at 24 90min boils since I have modified it.


I must hold a record now


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## whitegoose (2/5/10)

Well I just un-modified my urn, better safe than sorry. I'm going to wrap it in yoga mat insulation and see how it goes...

Anyone else had theirs blow recently? Any happy stories?


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## goldstar (2/5/10)

Well to fix mine I've actually removed the concealed element completely and replaced it with a 3000W element used in the Birko's. It works a treat. Much quicker heating to temps than the original and I get a great rolling boil. It's something for people to consider if the element does go. It's a bit more hassle but at least I'm not waiting for the element to go again now.


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## kanemari (3/5/10)

just to add my 5c worth to an old topic.

i blew up my element doing this mod when my grainbag stuck to the element and proceeded to burn. rookie mistake yes, but the boil dry switch is there for a reason. mine looked like the above pic too, which after talking to crown i found out the element is some sort of magnesium powder coated in aluminium... and it gets so hot the aluminium melts off. no liquid should require this sort of heat.

according to crown specs, the boil dry switch kicks in when the element reaches 130 degrees, then turns itself off until it cools back down to 70, which is kinda low. but this is separate to the thermostat on the liquid which on mine goes up to 110. so basically if something cakes onto the element and starts to burn when the boil dry is off, the water doesnt heat up but the element does... and its soon cactus.

i got a new element and put boil dry back on, and ive had no trouble maintaining a rolling boil on lower gravity worts. its not explosive but its decent enough. this is inside the shed wrapped in a blanket, so no wind. it might get difficult if you have something high gravity that could caramelise on the element cos that might trip the switch. i also got an element cover to protect the bag from the element in the event i am stupid again. you never know... a phantom hop sock may sink one day as well.


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## whitegoose (4/5/10)

OK so I un-modified my crown urn, wrapped it in a yoga mat for insulation, filled it with about 30L or so of water and cranked it up to 110.

I left it outside on what was a pretty cool night in Perth, with the lid on, and came back 1.5 hours later and it was boiling like crazy!! So I took the lid off... and pretty quickly the boil had died down to a pretty minor simmer - defintely not a rolling boil. Is this what I should be expecting from an unmodified crown? Is this really boiling enough to get rid of DMS etc?

Also, I noticed that the red light never really seemed to go off. In an unmodified crown, when the "boil cut out" mechanism kicks in should the light go out? Or does the light only go out when the target temperature is reached?

Any help would be appreciated...


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## leiothrix (5/5/10)

The light is wired in parallel with the element, meaning if the light is on the element is on.


Basically it's power in -> thermostat -> boil dry protector -> element & light -> power out.


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## whitegoose (5/5/10)

leiothrix said:


> The light is wired in parallel with the element, meaning if the light is on the element is on.
> 
> 
> Basically it's power in -> thermostat -> boil dry protector -> element & light -> power out.



Thanks for the reply...

So in an unmodified crown urn, with the temp set to 110 (max) would I expect the light to go out? It doesn't seem to, and I can't noticably hear the element cut out. I'm wondering if I didn't un-modifiy my urn correctly?

Pretty sluggish boil without the lid on though, only just ticking over. Is this what I should be expecting?


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## leiothrix (5/5/10)

I suppose that really depends on the ambient conditions.

Mine cycled on and off often enough, but I used it over summer (and yes, the light should go out). The boil was pretty lame though, and didn't last too long before it went back to a simmer.

Being a bit cooler now I'd imagine that it is able to dump a bit more heat into the air. I think the main point of the boil dry protector is with the enclosed base at the bottom the heat from the element can cook everything underneath.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened to mine (see post #71). I think it still works, I just have to get around to replacing the wiring.

Rob.


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## Bribie G (5/5/10)

EK said:


> Has anyonw else done 15+ brews with a Crown urn? Can you tell us fellow Crown owners how the urn is holding up?
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> EK



Not doing a Ford vs Holden thing here but my unmodified Birko 40L is about to do its 150th brew. At the end of the day Urns are supposed to provide endless cups of tea and coffee for Bingo ladies and Church congregations and their application to home brewing is purely purely purely coincidental. I'd even go further and say that the boiling ability of the Birko is _a serious safety fault_ as it could lead to the demise of some poor old bingo lady, 
but from the POV of a home brewer I hope they don't ever fix it


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## Nick JD (5/5/10)

"Cuppa Tea, Father?"


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## Bribie G (5/5/10)

Nick JD said:


> "Cuppa Tea, Father?"



Go ooorn Go ooorn Go ooorn


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## whitegoose (6/5/10)

leiothrix said:


> I think the main point of the boil dry protector is with the enclosed base at the bottom the heat from the element can cook everything underneath.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's what happened to mine (see post #71). I think it still works, I just have to get around to replacing the wiring.



So do you think somehow "ventilating" the base would help to preserve the guts of a modified urn? Maybe taking the bottom plate partially or completely off (my urn sits on a latticed crate which would allow cold air to mingle) or cutting some holes in the base?


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## MarkBastard (6/5/10)

The way I see it whitegoose...

The urn produces 2400 watts of energy. If your urn was empty then all of that energy would end up heating the air and metal parts and quickly result in failure.

If the urn is full of liquid, that energy should mostly go into the liquid as heat energy. Once the liquid is boiling, the heat should be boiling off as quickly as it's being produced.

I would thus think the biggest risk would be not having any liquid, having the lid on while boiling not allowing enough energy to disperse, and perhaps having the element covered in a scale, or a BIAB bag, or something like that, not allowing the heat to pass into the liquid and then into the air.

I imagine ventilating the area under the element wouldn't definitely work, but it's an interesting idea none the less.

I personally would like some more / better information from the people that have had the problem. I would like to to list as much as possible about how they used and or modified the urn. Did they allow the element to be on with grain in there for example? Even if they had a cake rack in there to stop the bag from touching the urn etc. Did they have crud on the bottom of the pot they didn't clean off? Did they have insulation wrapped around the outside of the urn? Were they brewing indoors or out?


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## leiothrix (6/5/10)

Mine died during a boil. Nothing in the urn except wort. No insulation either.

Only mods were changing the stock tap to a three-piece and pickup tube (which I can't see affecting anything) and removing the boil dry protector.

I think the significant difference between this brew day and any other was that I attempted to do a second batch on the same day, and it all just got too hot.

Mine was cycling on and off. I think the base got hot enough to trip the thermostat (set at 110*) to make it cycle. I'm pretty sure that if I get around to replacing the wiring that it will be fine. Not going to use it as a kettle again though. 

I think that removing the base would mean that you'd lose a lot of heating ability, especially if it is actively ventilated (e.g. a fan). The element is actually under the urn, not inside it, so I think you'd just end up blowing the heat away.

At the end of the day I think that the urn is made to keep coffee hot, not to continuously boil wort. For brewing purposes it would make a great HLT, but not much else.

I got myself a 50L S/S pot to replace the urn, and am going to fit it with an element, temp sensor, site guage and valve. Bit scary drilling in to a pot that cost > $200 though.

Rob.


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## alexen (29/8/10)

Evening everyone.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm looking at getting a 40L Crown Urn (probably concealed element) from craftbrewer in the coming weeks. This will purely be used for boiling wort from my mash tun. I don't want the hassle of an expensive SS pot, burner and gas bottle. 

Before I invest, I just want to know if anyone actually has one which is unmodified, has lasted a few years and can sustain a rolling boil indoors? After reading through this and other threads all afternoon, it almost seems I can either settle for a half boil, or modify the cut off switch and possibly have it die on me rather soon. I don't mind a bit of extra cleaning work, so if an exposed element model is more ideal thats no issue.

Keen on your feedback,

Cheers,

Stew


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## tavas (30/8/10)

Birko...You know you want too!!

Go on, be tempted by the dark side.


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## Bribie G (30/8/10)

I have a Birko and a Crown, both exposed element. On balance I prefer the Crown. A couple of advantages: easier element to clean, far more robust tap and being taller and thinner there is less boil-off which can be an advantage with a larger grain bill in a 40L urn, if you like a vigorous "rolling" boil and don't want to top up mid boil. Cheaper too. 

However, Mark^bastard reports a reasonable boil with the concealed element job using a camping mat for insulation. Really cleaing the element is only a few minutes job with a kitchen scourer pad (green one) and a periodic tickle up with citric acid.


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## MarkBastard (30/8/10)

Even on the concealed elements they can be a bitch to clean just above the element. There's a circle of SS on the bottom that is obviously just above a coiled element, and scum seems to stick to this much more and seems a lot harder to get off. No doubt it's easier than an exposed element but you do really need to reach in and give it a good scrub, so I reckon the cleaning aspect isn't as big as people say. Also in the concealed model the temperature probe needs to be cleaned to an extent and it's very fiddly. It has a cover that comes off and then a copper looking probe.

If you really hate cleaning you can probably just use PBW and I'm sure it'd eat it all off, particularly if you boiled it.

And Bribie, I have done the mod + camping mat and I've brewed inside and out. Brewing inside the boil is almost too good, outside it was probably just right.

I'm going to un-mod it and see how I go.


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## smilinggilroy (30/8/10)

Have just purchased a current model Birko on evilpay:- $273.00 delivered to my door. 
Cheapest Crown I could find was going to cost $37 more(concealed element).
Spoke to Birko, asking the difference of newer model and was told the element was shaped different (should be easier to clean?) and more efficient and a better sight glass.
Sizes-The birko is 5mm shorter and 14mm wider.
As for cleaning, most brewers from what I have read use a cleaning pad with little effort. Try using bi-carb and vinegar or CLR periodically.
Have read BribieG has done many a brew and his Birko is still going strong.

My 2c worth.


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## camedmeades (21/9/10)

Hey guys, am just about to move into AG brewing (BIAB) and have been doing a bit of research on urns vs pot+burner

Up until this thread, I was strongly leaning towards the urn. Crown sell seconds (visual difficiencies. small dents, broken boxes etc) for $196+gst but was looking to pay a bit more and get a Birko... are all Birkos exposed elements (10090x0 model range) or are the new ones concealed. Also, has anyone had any trouble with achieving a rolling boil with a Birko.

Bottom line, would you pay $50 more for the Birko over the Crown? I know I have all the factual information I can get but still want some subjective opinions to pursuade my feeble decision making abilities...

I'm wiring up my shed in the next few months anyway so will make sure to get a 15a dedicated circuit...


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## MarkBastard (21/9/10)

BribieG has both a Crown and a Birko, I would suggest you get his opinion on it. From memory he likes the exposed element Crown a lot.


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## JestersDarts (21/9/10)

SpeedMeades said:


> Hey guys, am just about to move into AG brewing (BIAB) and have been doing a bit of research on urns vs pot+burner
> 
> Up until this thread, I was strongly leaning towards the urn. Crown sell seconds (visual difficiencies. small dents, broken boxes etc) for $196+gst but was looking to pay a bit more and get a Birko... are all Birkos exposed elements (10090x0 model range) or are the new ones concealed. Also, has anyone had any trouble with achieving a rolling boil with a Birko.
> 
> ...



From what I can see - they all have the same function, depends on what you want it for, and how you are going to use it.

Concealed elements have been reported to burn out with modding, 
or you could not mod it, but have a lesser boil..reportedly.
exposed elements need to be celaned a little more thouroughly
you need to protect your bag from an exposed element it if B'ingIAB, but not always the case if you use the urn in certain ways, like not having the elemt on when bag in there.

I have no experience in any of the above, but have been reading all about it over the last couple of days here on AHB.

I have a concealed element crown urn, that is going to be my HLT - and have been reading about BIAB from the urn until i've got a few other AG bits and bobs together... dont want to wreck my urn using it for not what I had intended.

If i was going to BIAB urn style, I would have probably gone exposed element, and birko (because theyre slightly cheaper... apparently)

but i probably won't - and it want a consideration when buying mine


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## TheYank (10/12/10)

How many people are still using a modified Crown urn to boil wort? Going back through this thread I can see three people have burned out there wires / element after the mod. I'm trying to gage how much of a risk there is of this happening. If there are 100 people out there who use a modified Crown with a concealed element and have had no trouble then maybe the risk of this happening is not that great?


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## Pollux (10/12/10)

Mine is still modded but now only serves as a HLT, I might get around to returning it to it's normal state, when I can be arsed.


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## MarkBastard (10/12/10)

TheYank said:


> How many people are still using a modified Crown urn to boil wort? Going back through this thread I can see three people have burned out there wires / element after the mod. I'm trying to gage how much of a risk there is of this happening. If there are 100 people out there who use a modified Crown with a concealed element and have had no trouble then maybe the risk of this happening is not that great?



Mine is still working fine. I inspected the insides recently and no signs of any issues.


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## theredone (21/2/11)

gee i wish i read this yesterday, i now have about 30ltrs of what i can only assume will be 2.5-3% golden ale, due to very little boil off


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## afromaiko (30/8/11)

I had my sights set on a Crown concealed element urn until I read this about the problems with them burning out after modification.

But, do the exposed Crowns and Birkos also need to have this mod done to maintain a rolling boil?


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## Spork (31/8/11)

I have a new, unmodded, crown with concealed element. Minimal insulation (for now), cool outside, I get a decent enough boil @ about 96c with the lid off. This is hot enough to kill the bugs, and I get a fair rate of evaporation too - probably a smidgen over %10/hour.
Can't see why I need it to boil more vigorously really. It mightn't be "Rotarua", but the wort certainly moves around a lot at that temperature. Looked close enough to "rolling" to me. Todays wort was 1.055, so not lite beer. Every time I checked, it was heating - ie: little red light was on.


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## ianh (31/8/11)

I also have an unmodified Crown 40l urn and get an evaporation rate of 3.3 litres per hour (about 12%).

The only problem I found was after the mash, material settled on top of the concealed element, this caused the temperature cut out to operate. I just use my paint scraper to remove this material and don't have any cut out issues.


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## hodges4 (31/8/11)

I also have an unmodified Crown 40 litre urn. I place the lid 3/4 on and can get a very vigorous boil. I regulate the boil by how far the lid covers the urn and leaving it around 3/4 on there is no risk of boil-over. I stop it from slipping all the way on by using a couple of clothes pegs around the rim. Seems to work fine for me. I'm boiling off up to 4 litres/hr.


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## amarks5 (31/8/11)

My unmodified Crown urn takes about 20 minutes to get from 70 degrees to boil, but will then boil vigorously with thermostat set at 100 (not maxed out).

I have lagged it with a sheet of insulation that's black rubber with reflective sheet on one side (from Clark Rubber, but probably cheaper elsewhere).

Cheers,

Tony


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## Tim (31/8/11)

I have had no troubles with my standard concealed element Crown. It maintains a rolling boil even in winter. 

Sure the boil isn't jumping out of the kettle but its continuously rolling which is all you need, anything more is overkill.


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## afromaiko (31/8/11)

So why is it that some people feel the need to do the mod then, but some don't have any problems with the boil?


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## afromaiko (2/9/11)

I'm still curious to find out the answer to the above question before I decide whether to purchase one. Cheers.


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## Spork (2/9/11)

I may be wrong, but I believe the "problem" occurs only with higher gravity brews.


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## afromaiko (2/9/11)

The higher the gravity, the higher the boiling point then?

I wonder at what gravity it becomes an issue.


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## Aus_Rider_22 (2/9/11)

I use you a Crown 40L urn with a concealed element.

I haven't mod'd it. It gets a good rolling boil without insulation. After reading this thread I think I will try the matting insulation as the only gripe I have is it takes a little while to go from mash to boiling. I used to wrap it in blankets for the mash but do things a little differently and can keep a stable temp for the mash period these days.

No doubt the exposed element urns will come to the boil quicker but I like to have the security of knowing my bag can't come into direct with the heat source plus the ease of cleaning is awesome.


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## Spork (2/9/11)

@ Afromaiko: Not from my (limited) understanding. From what I've read, the higher the gravity the more likley to trip the boil-dry protection circuit.


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## ianh (3/9/11)

afromaiko as stated in my previous post I only think it becomes a problem when you have material coating the concealed element cover. I don't think having a higher gravity would be a problem, though I do not brew above 1.060.

I just scrape the element cover with my paint scraper and do not have any problems.

My last 10 brews, evaporation rates 3.4,3.5,3.3,3.2,3.3,3.3,3.3,3.3,3.3,3.4 in litres per hour an that is in an unheated garage in Tassie through Winter.

cheers

Ian


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## iJosh (5/6/12)

Resurrecting an oldish thread...

I did a normal gravity brew on the weekend (1036 preboil) and had the boil dry cut-off problem and it was shitting me to no end. Anyway, this was my second only brew in the crown concealed and the first time I put hop pellets directly in the wort, last time I boiled the hops in a sock. I'm thinking the extra material in the boil was the issue as the 'disc' over the element was coated with caked on gunk, which I'm pretty sure wasn't as bad last time (I didn't actually pay a lot of attention). 

Should I just go ahead with the mod or do I try again with the hop sock, but potentially get pissed off to the max again... Mind you, there's a good chance a busted urn would piss me off too!  

Are modded urns still cranking along nicely these days?


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## Bribie G (5/6/12)

It's not just the concealed element models, my exposed Crown has cut out a few times, and when I did a protein rest and then tried to ramp up to mash temperature I nearly wrecked the element, there's still areas of black shyte I can't get to. 

Hop sock would be the go. If you want to give the hoppies a good boil, as I've posted elsewhere, you can make a swimming pool for them by pegging one of these around and chuck in a couple of SS spoons to weigh it down, all the boil has to go up through it to escape and gives really good results compared to hop socks etc that tend to restrict the hop rolling and boiling.


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## iJosh (5/6/12)

Hi Bribie, 

I was considering a similar idea using a spare BIAB bag. So you found using a bag like this reduced the crud from the hops baking on? I really don't want to get half way through a boil and have this problem again... I was ready pick the whole lot up and throw it on the concrete! Lucky it was too heavy and too hot and I love beer too much... h34r: 

I guess I have 2 options: try a bag again risking cut-offs, or do the mod but potentially reduce my urn's life... :wacko:


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## Bribie G (5/6/12)

I'd go the bag.. those grain bags from Ross retain nearly all the material, even from pellets. 


Go the old bag trick :blink:


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## iJosh (5/6/12)

Whoa... That is one scary looking bag! :blink: 

Alrighty then. Next brew I will give the bag another go, if that's a fail I will reconsider the mod


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## seamad (5/6/12)

Do you give the element a scrub mid boil?

I made up a long scrubbing brush ( pic in my sig) and that improves things
cheers
Sean


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## Scottye (5/7/14)

Gave my new Crown Urn with concealed element its first run tonight - A Mild Ale.
Managed to sustain a rolling boil for 60 minutes and boil off 3 litres.
Brew was outside in Southern Tasmania where the temperature was 11 degrees.
Pretty wrapped I was worried when I stumbled onto this thread a couple of days after I purchased the Urn.
Decided against the Mod.

Cheers


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## Alex.Tas (7/7/14)

Hey Von Scott, I did a brew yesterday (sunday), the day after you did yours. I have a new (month or so old) concealed element crown urn too. 
I got an evap rate of 6L after a 105 min boil, so thats 3.43L per hour. I brewed in my garage, next to the open door.

I considered buying a new thermostat available form crown, which ups the cut out form 110 to 130 apparently. I called up crown to order one and had a chat. They recommended not bothering buying the upgraded thermostat, and its been fine so far (2 brews).


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## ianh (7/7/14)

Similar sort of findings, get 3.3 - 3.4 l/hr boil off in the garage in winter. Urn lagged with camping mat, 31 litres start of boil volume (100C)

Averaged 3.49 l/hr boil off over 130 brews in crown urn.

No mods just scape element cover before start of boil.


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## f15h (22/10/14)

I have an alternative solution. I have been thinking about this since i put together my first temperature controller back in my bung it in a bucket days. most electronics belt/mat controllers can be modified with a higher rated solid state relay (or do as i did and buy the bits and make your own controller from scratch) thermocouple controlled temperature is far superior to the variable temperature control in the urn. just plug it into your heat out and tape your thermocouple onto the side of the urn with a fabric bandaid. Brewshops sell temp controllers for ~$50 and a 15A SSR will cost ~$10. my box cost me a bit more because i have both heating and cooling 240v outs. ~$65

Just did a quick ebay search. you can buy ~$20
PID REX-C100 Temperature Controller +max.40A SSR +K Thermocouple Probe 0-400℃


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## anthonyUK (22/10/14)

There is no issue with the thermometer. Build up on the concealed element causes it to overheat and the thermal protection kicks in and cuts the power until it cools down.

The last time I looked, the REX C100 is not ideal for SSR use without a mod as it has relay outputs. It is very cheap and it shows unfortunately but some people have had some success using them.


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## f15h (3/11/14)

If you are using two methods of controlling temp anyway, you can bypass your thermal protection. just be mindful of it so you dont cook your element


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