# Brewing With Tank Water



## kiwisteveo (8/4/10)

May be a silly question but have moved to the country and are on tank water will i have to boil it before i use it,(fairly new house and tanks)water tastes fine to me.Any suggestions appreciated so thanks off to the pub for an hour or two


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## zoidbergmerc (8/4/10)

It'll be fine.


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## Pennywise (8/4/10)

kiwisteveo said:


> will i have to boil it before i use it




Yes


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## chestynuts (8/4/10)

Is the "tank water" rain or treated ground? I lived on a farm for many years when young and we had both rain water for drinking and treated ground water for washing. The rain water should always be boiled as a precaution when drinking as if could have the potential to house bugs in the tank (depends on various factors). When brewing, the rain water would have less ions (salts) than typical residential tap water, which in turn could change the taste of the brew. If its treated ground water (we had to treat it ourselves to remove the iron and adjust the pH) it should also be boiled and will again produce a different taste. Back to your question though, you probably should boil the tank water to kill any bugs. Remember people don't swim in chemical free pools because of the nasties. 
Boiling was a pain but you get use to it.


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## phinnsfotos (8/4/10)

<Just some random internet idiot's opinion>

The idea behind sanitization is to reduce the microbes to an acceptable level. No I have no idea of what that definition of acceptable is and more importantly I'll assume neither of us have the ability to test it.

I imagine the problem with rain water is that it's an unknown. The existing microbial level is unknown and changing and therefore what needs to be done to reduce that level to acceptable is unknown and changing. 

Your rain water could be cleaner than tap water (sorry but anyone who thinks their tap water is sterile is an idiot, but most town water is probably sufficiently sanitary for brewing). Or your rain water could be 1000's of times less sanitary than tap water, and it could change day to day. 

Boiling your rain water will change the unknown to known and reduce the microbial level to a fairly well understood level, being almost nothing. Many things will survive boiling water but most (maybe all) yeast and bacteria wont. Prions will happily pass through an autoclav with 138 degrees C steam and high pressure.

So the main question, do you need to? No idea; sorry. Maybe run a few cheap brews (Cooper's kit and kilo) and see how you go. If you're happy with the results without boiling then keep going. If you're brew forms a society, develops a written language and elects a leader, then time to look at boiling.

Maybe you could try dissolving some light dry malt into some rain water and sealing (glad wrap) it and leave it for a week. Then view that as the "worst case" scenario

</ Just some random internet idiot's opinion>


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## Phoney (8/4/10)

ale-e-chest said:


> Is the "tank water" rain or treated ground? I lived on a farm for many years when young and we had both rain water for drinking and treated ground water for washing. The rain water should always be boiled as a precaution when drinking as if could have the potential to house bugs in the tank (depends on various factors). When brewing, the rain water would have less ions (salts) than typical residential tap water, which in turn could change the taste of the brew. If its treated ground water (we had to treat it ourselves to remove the iron and adjust the pH) it should also be boiled and will again produce a different taste. Back to your question though, you probably should boil the tank water to kill any bugs. Remember people don't swim in chemical free pools because of the nasties.
> Boiling was a pain but you get use to it.



Really? I grew up on tank water as well, and we never ever boiled it. My mum still lives on tank water to this day and doesn't boil it either. :huh:


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## Peteoz77 (8/4/10)

ale-e-chest said:


> Remember people don't swim in chemical free pools because of the nasties.




Really? How about lakes, rivers, streams and maybe even the ocean? None of them are clean, but I have done and still do swim in all of them....

As for the brewing water... if you can drink it and it's fine.. you shouldbe able to brew with it...


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## Batz (8/4/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Really? I grew up on tank water as well, and we never ever boiled it. My mum still lives on tank water to this day and doesn't boil it either. :huh:




All we have is tank water as well, we only boil it for tea and coffee. I'll be more inclined to boil the concoction that comes out of those city taps than rain water.

Batz


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## earle (8/4/10)

60 odd brews with untreated rainwater tank water with no problems. We also drink the water with no ill effects. You may like to consider what could be washed into your tank, e.g. is you roof frequented by lots of birds. The carpet snakes in our roof keep the bird population under control :huh:


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## jiesu (8/4/10)

Their is also all sorts of pollutants, soils, bacteria and plant matter in dams and rivers. You might swim in it but I would think twice before brewing with it. 
Have you had a look in the tank? is it clean? any algae in there or mosquito larvae? 
There could well be wild yeasts in your water that wont necessarily effect the drinking quality but I am willing to wager it would effect the flavours within the brew. 
I guess the botom line is do you want more control over the taste and flavour of your brew or are you happy to go with less effort and control and a higher risk of infection.
You have to boil your wort anyway and I use very very cold pre boiled water to get to my final volume and get the wort down from the chilled 27 28 degress down to pitching temp of about 19 20, and I am on city water.


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## driveitlikeustoleit (8/4/10)

Rule of thumb, if you can drink it, you can brew with it. It'll get boiled with hops yeah? :icon_cheers:


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## jtsteel (8/4/10)

Batz said:


> All we have is tank water as well, we only boil it for tea and coffee. I'll be more inclined to boil the concoction than comes out of those city taps than rain water.
> 
> Batz



+1


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## phinnsfotos (8/4/10)

A point worth considering would be what type of brewing do you do? If it's all grain and you're boiling the full wort then it's probably not as important. If it's kit/extract and you're toping up the fermenter with tank water then it's a lot more important.


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## komodo (8/4/10)

^ Im with these guys. If you can drink it - brew with it!

As for the pool thing. Pfft what a crock of shit. I'm currently looking at moving and building a house. One of the requirements of the house will be access to build a natural pool. No chemicals. No salt. Just plants. Safe to drink. Safe for the family pet to jump in. No health or skin issues


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## kiwisteveo (8/4/10)

sweet,cheers for all the info think i'll do a few brews without boiling it as have been drinking the tank water and are still alive and have already looked inside the tanks(all rainwater, new gutters so look to be pretty clean)time to oder some stuff choice,cheers


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## chestynuts (10/4/10)

Ok lads easy on the tank water comments. Sorry for posting my knowledge of water on the forum. If people want to be ingnorante then thats there provocative. Lakes, streams and the ocean each have their own ecosystems that keep everything in balance. Sometimes they get out balance eg. there are numerous times in summer when they say not to swin in sections of the swan river. For those who do drink tank water, fair enough it may be better than scheme water but next time you get the runs don't automatically think it is something you ate. It may be perfectly fine to brew with. Every tank would be different as is every country why don't people drink the tap water in Bali? Komodo building a natural pool with plants is an excellent way to do it as the plants will keep control of the nutrients but most pools don't have plants to do this. Batz may you tell me what actually comes out of the city taps? I'm interested. Rain water will still effect the taste of the brew some of you may want to read about brewing water.


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## BEC26 (10/4/10)

This was in todays Sydeny Morning Herald



> _PEOPLE who drink from their rainwater tanks may be consuming unacceptable levels of lead, a study says.
> 
> Scientists from the University of Technology, Sydney, assessed the quality of water stored in household tanks around the city and found that five of the 11 tanks contained lead levels exceeding 0.01 milligrams a litre - the amount considered safe in drinking water by the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines.
> 
> They also found the turbidity, or murkiness, of the water exceeded acceptable levels, as did the pH levels in some tanks._



http://www.smh.com.au/environment/rainwate...00409-ryu0.html

Probably more geared towards city dwellers, but also where ever Lead is mined (Broken Hill where I used to live - and the footy coach gave the kids tank water for half time - I nearly killed him!!!)

Just some info

Cheers


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## Ross (10/4/10)

Brewing with untreated tank water is like playing Russian Roulette - one day you will DEFINATELY loose a brew to infection & most likely every brew will be contaminated even if you can't indentify it. If you are kegging you are more likely to get away with it but if you are bottling you are taking a high risk of future bottle bombs - It just ain't worth it. If you don't want the effort of treating your tank water (for instance by boiling, UV, RO or chemicals) then bring a jerry can of mains water back home from work or a mates place & use that.

I'm sorry, but those recommending using untreated tank water (whether they've lost a brew or not) for brewing are giving bad advice!!!

Cheers Ross


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## Spiderpig (21/4/10)

I'm with Ross... Only ever did two brews using my tank water and ended up with bottle gushers on both. Same maticulous santisation process applied, so nothing to do with that. Only ever used town water since and never had a single problem. Stay right away from it mate, Yeasties will react to any organism in the water whether you tase it there or not... My two krona's worth...


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## wynnum1 (21/4/10)

Have you tasted brisbane water lately use boiled tank water


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## aussierover (21/4/10)

Releasing biological unknowns in a biological environment is certainly asking for trouble. Tank water is harnessed off the roof surface which one would normally assume is not sanitized. It then remains generally stagnant until oxygenating slightly through the plumbing. Unless you can analyze your water to ensure its within drinking water guidelines, both chemically and biologically. I would assume at best it would be high in nitrates, phosphates, suspended solids and coli-forms. The pH is probably below 6 but certainly below 7 as well. Not a clue how these variables impact brewing and anyone who doesn't ought to treat tank water before use (brewing).


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## kiwisteveo (21/4/10)

well we'll see what happens have a APA in the fermenter since sunday used tank water(didn't boil it) smells awsome so we'll have to wait and see what its like in a month if it lasts that long


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## Caelum (21/4/10)

I guess it entirely depends on WHERE you are, rather than just what the water is.


I grew up on tankwater in a remote region in tasmania, we filled the tank with both rain in winter, and bore water in summer.


We had our water sent off for quality/mineral/etc testing a few times over the years we lived there(i was there for about 15 years, parents longer) and we were told our water was some of the purest and safest they've ever tested. The only filtering we had in place was a debris level filter on the pumping system(bore), and then a 1 micron pleated fibre filter at the house pump.

We never had any issues with homebrew there, at all. Infact, now i'm on town water, and it smells like i'm drinking water from a swimming pool! yuck!

That town water is what i've been using for my latest home brews, and after tasting it the other day unfiltered from the tap, it has me thinking i'll move back to rain water, we've got a tank here, just needs to be cleaned up and filtered and it HAS to be better quality than the town water supply. (i'm still in a regional/rural area, so rain water quality should be good still)




Now, if we're talking about rainwater in the city


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## Ross (21/4/10)

Caelum said:


> I guess it entirely depends on WHERE you are, rather than just what the water is.




Sorry, but no it doesn't!!! Even in pristine Tasmania, you are exposed to trees, plants, birds, wildlife. Just because you didn't detect anything wrong with your brews it does not make it safe for brewing.


As i said before.... *those recommending using untreated tank water (whether they've lost a brew or not) for brewing are giving bad advice!!!*


cheers Ross


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## kiwisteveo (21/4/10)

Jeez i think everyone needs to have a frothy and relax


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## drsmurto (21/4/10)

Ross said:


> Sorry, but no it doesn't!!! Even in pristine Tasmania, you are exposed to trees, plants, birds, wildlife. Just because you didn't detect anything wrong with your brews it does not make it safe for brewing.
> 
> 
> As i said before.... *those recommending using untreated tank water (whether they've lost a brew or not) for brewing are giving bad advice!!!*
> ...



Exactly!

I analysed my rainwater prior to using it for brewing. 

Its filtered for drinking purposes but i use it unfiltered for brewing as it gets a 90 minute boil at the end.

If you are using it without boiling it (kits, or topping up) you are tempting fate. 

Just because it looks, smells and even tastes clean doesn't mean it is. Its about as scientific as testing your mash temp by dipping your finger in.

I just switched over to tank water again thanks to it finally raining so I am back to water adjustments.


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## absinthe (21/4/10)

my father has been brewing for more than 10 years (kits 'n' kilos) he has never boiled his water from the tanks and never had more than one infection. i wouldn't worry about it to much, unless you have a lot of tree cover etc. his tanks are 30 years old btw and have only been cleaned once and that was about 15 years ago when they were moved. 

i still think if you use tank water have a metal roof and are doing AG, you may want to add some salts. but a tiled roof should be fine for most salts. but if you are making AG then its getting boiled anyway lol

give it a go, if its going to cause problems i think it would cause consistent problems, as the water in the tanks shouldn't change in microbe levels to much between one brew and the next.


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## Caelum (21/4/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I analysed my rainwater prior to using it for brewing.
> 
> ...


Well, as i stated in my post, we sent out tests off to labs fairly regularly to have them checked... It wasn't as unscientific as you seem to be implying.

We checked PH ourselves, but sent the samples off to the labs for checking for bacteria, minerals, toxicity, etc... Each and every time we got the results back and comments from the testers saying how perfect our water was.

Sure, we might well have been a minority in the scheme of rain/bore water, but i can only say how our test results were, and that they were done by professional labs, not backyard chemistry.


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## drsmurto (21/4/10)

Caelum said:


> Well, as i stated in my post, we sent out tests off to labs fairly regularly to have them checked... It wasn't as unscientific as you seem to be implying.
> 
> We checked PH ourselves, but sent the samples off to the labs for checking for bacteria, minerals, toxicity, etc... Each and every time we got the results back and comments from the testers saying how perfect our water was.
> 
> Sure, we might well have been a minority in the scheme of rain/bore water, but i can only say how our test results were, and that they were done by professional labs, not backyard chemistry.



I can't see where in my post i made any comment on your scientific skills.

As you point out, both you and I have had our water tested in labs. I did mine myself but it was part of my job at the time.

My comment was directed at others on this thread. 

You need to sight in that gun of yours..... :icon_cheers:


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## Caelum (21/4/10)

No angst intended mate


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## [email protected] (21/4/10)

I have always brewed with water straight out of the rainwater tank and when that runs out untreated bore water, never had a problem in ten years


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## DKS (21/4/10)

I have used tank water many times and no problem but I boiled it for use as I boiled kits and bits, steeped grains and hops. 
One time I left a cube of tank water for a few weeks and forgot about it. Later I found a growth off green and black through out. It looked and smelled OK and tasted fine when run out of the tank, all the locals drank tank water because the town water was mud. Lesson learned for me.
Your gut can handle tank water to an extent but throw in some yeast and sugar..... :icon_vomit: 
As used for beer. Don't do it unless you boil it.
2 cent rave.
Daz


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## aussierover (23/4/10)

Caelum said:


> Well, as i stated in my post, we sent out tests off to labs fairly regularly to have them checked... It wasn't as unscientific as you seem to be implying.
> 
> We checked PH ourselves, but sent the samples off to the labs for checking for bacteria, minerals, toxicity, etc... Each and every time we got the results back and comments from the testers saying how perfect our water was.
> 
> Sure, we might well have been a minority in the scheme of rain/bore water, but i can only say how our test results were, and that they were done by professional labs, not backyard chemistry.



There must be 50 - 100 analysis a lab can run on water to test for bacteria, minerals and toxicity etc. At between $8 and $100 per analysis, I am assuming you only analysed the basic parameters. When samples are collected, they must be placed in an esky with dry ice or ice at a minimum. For pH, the samples need to be in the lab in under 6 hours, for other analysis, 24 - 48 hrs. This probably explains running pH test yourself. Did you use a callabrated probe or paper strips? Paper strips only record whole pH points, so at best you can be 0.5 pH points out but probably closer to 1 pH point. Did you sent QA forms with the samples. There is more importance on collecting and storing than running tests. When you say perfect, what does this mean?? Perfect would be deionised, but little would live in or on it? Dont flame too hard, I test water quality (environmental rater than drinking) for a living,,, its my thang!! 

Not sure about this, but I would quess that some people out there have produced homebrew without sanitising correctly, possibly for 10 years or more without lost batches. Why spend time sanitising then use water with unknown chemical and biological parameters. For me it is all about eliminating variables and unknowns. In saying that, I only use filtered tap water which may pick up solids, maybe some bacteria or the odd stray cation (+ charged) but does little to pick up anions (- charged, chlorine, flouride etc). The thing with tap water is test are constantly run at the treatment facility so it takes a bit to become contaminated and really unlikely to happen (without everyone hearing about it anyway). 

Good luck with the tankwater, I hope you can all keep slipping your batches through to the keeper, not sure how they arnt bing hit for a biological 6 and out..


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## Caelum (23/4/10)

RIF said:


> There must be 50 - 100 analysis a lab can run on water to test for bacteria, minerals and toxicity etc. At between $8 and $100 per analysis, I am assuming you only analysed the basic parameters. When samples are collected, they must be placed in an esky with dry ice or ice at a minimum. For pH, the samples need to be in the lab in under 6 hours, for other analysis, 24 - 48 hrs. This probably explains running pH test yourself. Did you use a callabrated probe or paper strips? Paper strips only record whole pH points, so at best you can be 0.5 pH points out but probably closer to 1 pH point. Did you sent QA forms with the samples. There is more importance on collecting and storing than running tests. When you say perfect, what does this mean?? Perfect would be deionised, but little would live in or on it? Dont flame too hard, I test water quality (environmental rater than drinking) for a living,,, its my thang!!
> 
> Not sure about this, but I would quess that some people out there have produced homebrew without sanitising correctly, possibly for 10 years or more without lost batches. Why spend time sanitising then use water with unknown chemical and biological parameters. For me it is all about eliminating variables and unknowns. In saying that, I only use filtered tap water which may pick up solids, maybe some bacteria or the odd stray cation (+ charged) but does little to pick up anions (- charged, chlorine, flouride etc). The thing with tap water is test are constantly run at the treatment facility so it takes a bit to become contaminated and really unlikely to happen (without everyone hearing about it anyway).
> 
> Good luck with the tankwater, I hope you can all keep slipping your batches through to the keeper, not sure how they arnt bing hit for a biological 6 and out..



My family owns/owned a vineyard there(now elsewhere) so we had the full suite of tests done on the water - our livelihood depended on it not only because we were drinking the water, but because it was used in all our winemaking and grape growing procedures.
For PH we have a proper lab quality PH meter.

There have been a few cases of water treatment not being performed properly in town water in tassie, which usually results in the reports being kept quiet - i myself was involved in one of these tests when i was younger, about 11 years ago, where all sorts of nasties were found in the water. It was quickly and quietly fixed up, and we were all told never to speak about it ever again... So i won't say where it was or who i was working with... But more cases exist than we're told about 

Interestingly enough, however, and unrelated to this thread and more about the poor quality of the drinking water in my area(full of toxins...) We're actually going to be putting in a sterile filter system for the rainwater tank so we drink that, rather than the town water. Not sure if we'll go pleated fibre or ceramic yet, but there'll also be a carbon element to soak up other nasties.


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## juzz1981 (23/4/10)

I have always used tanks water and i suppose i have had varied results but didnt attribute that to tank water.
I didn't use mains water because it doesn't taste all that great, what about using mains water and using a filter, that should be better than tank water for sanitation reasons yeah?


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## Gronko (23/4/10)

Ross said:


> Brewing with untreated tank water is like playing Russian Roulette - one day you will DEFINATELY loose a brew to infection & most likely every brew will be contaminated even if you can't indentify it. If you are kegging you are more likely to get away with it but if you are bottling you are taking a high risk of future bottle bombs - It just ain't worth it. If you don't want the effort of treating your tank water (for instance by boiling, UV, RO or chemicals) then bring a jerry can of mains water back home from work or a mates place & use that.
> 
> I'm sorry, but those recommending using untreated tank water (whether they've lost a brew or not) for brewing are giving bad advice!!!
> 
> Cheers Ross



I'm quoting Ross here because I too used to brew with tank water and never had a "normal" infection. My beer always turned out ok... at least I thought it was ok till Ross posted a similar thing in another thread.
I got a bit testy and got stuck into him which I regret doing now because recently (a few weeks ago) I had cause to ring him in regards to an order I placed at Craftbrewer.
I apologised for my testyness and we proceeded to discuss at length some of the issues surrounding untreated tank water versus treated town tap water.

On his advice I purchased what is known round here as a "cube". A 25 litre food grade plastic drum.
I use this to collect 25L of tap water from a friends house in Warragul. 
I've made 3 brews using his treated town water and all 3 are far superior to the brews I made using the tainted crap from my tank.
Both taste and aroma has improved dramatically

So cutting a long story .. umm .. long, I'll never make another brew using my tank water.

Thankyou Ross for your advice. VERY much appreciated :icon_cheers:


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## juzz1981 (23/4/10)

juzz1981 said:


> I have always used tanks water and i suppose i have had varied results but didnt attribute that to tank water.
> I didn't use mains water because it doesn't taste all that great, what about using mains water and using a filter, that should be better than tank water for sanitation reasons yeah?




Anyone able to shed some light?


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## jzani (23/4/10)

juzz1981 said:


> Anyone able to shed some light?



I tried one brew with our tank water and the APA was undrinkable, although I had a good stab at it ;-). We have a carbon filter attached to our water supply from our tank water, but that is mainly because the tank needs a good clean and the water tastes off without being filtered. Filter cost about $150, and about $80 for replacement filter every 6 months (all our drinking water goes through it).

The main reason you should treat drinking water is for Giardia, which usually gets into a water supply through sewage or something dead floating in it. If our tank didn't have this risk, I probably wouldn't filter the rain water. Filtering removes all of these risks and makes the water (and brews) taste nice. Not sure how it affects the chemistry from brewing though.

Try the water and see. If it is drinkable, drink it.

Cheers all
:icon_chickcheers:

edit: that's NZ$


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## kbe (23/4/10)

I am trying to get one of these  water filters  but the company does not look at their emails (which I personally hate) and I have tried to get one off ebay, but I keep getting beat by someone going over my limit for one.

I think that they would be good for me, as our pipes are very old and they are also able to be fitted to a hose system. One day I will get one, but until then I will stick to the water you buy from Bilo  I would never use tank water.... have a good look in one with either a lot of sun light or a good flash light.... lots of little squiggly things in a lot of them. :unsure:


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## zoidbergmerc (23/4/10)

@ KBE,

I think we sell those at work, but we're in Tassie and I'm not sure we have any branches up your way. I only work in IT but if you get desperate shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do.


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## Caelum (23/4/10)

That isn't a sterile filter - it'll only filter down to 10 micron, which isn't small enough for bacteria or virii.



You'll be wanting a filter with pores smaller than 1 micron, preferably .2 or .4 if possible.


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