# Making pilsners with ale malt



## Doctormcbrewdle (16/11/17)

I've got a shed load of ale malt now (enough for a good 10 batches) and don't really want to go out and buy another bag, so am looking in to how ale malt might go for lagers

I ran into this Exbeeriment online http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/28/gr...lt-2-row-vs-pilsner-malt-exbeeriment-results/ which seems positive so I'm going to give it a shot. I have a pils with Best Malz pilsner malt and hallertau Mittelfruh fermenting as we speak so will be able to trial it against that.

Does anyone have any experience with anything like this?


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## mtb (16/11/17)

Done it plenty of times, you'll be fine. Hope you've got temp control.


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## Blind Dog (16/11/17)

Been there, done that a few times (for the same reason). Should work fine. May not be as 'clean' as using a pilsner malt, but perfectly acceptable.

Agree with mtb that temp control is key, which presumably you have if you're already making lagers. A lager yeast is ideal, but Nottingham at the lower end of its temp range also works, although again not as 'clean' as lager yeast at its ideal temp.

Golden / summer ales like summer lightning are also worth looking into if you wanted options


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## mtb (16/11/17)

+1 for Notto. Attenuates super well, very dry beers to be had from it


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/17)

mtb said:


> Done it plenty of times, you'll be fine. Hope you've got temp control.



Well the thing is, they (and I) have exbeerimented with that, too http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

My lager's come out the same at 22 odd as they do at 12. Though for some reason (namely because I'm trying to take up time due to lots of beer reserves) I'm doing this one at 12

I've come to believe that the old term 'lager' has been lost in translation. It means to cold store


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## good4whatAlesU (17/11/17)

^bottom fermenting yeast.
Other beers are top fermenting.


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## MHB (17/11/17)

Ale and Lager aren't defined by colour (or the malt used) the two yeasts are genetically distinct.
Lager yeast has a double set of genes, it metabolises more sugars, will work at much lower temperatures, manages Sulphur differently...
A very pale Ale isn't a lager, a dark(er) Lager isn't an Ale.
To make Lager you need Lager yeast, use an Ale yeast and its just a pale ale. To answer the OP yes you can make a Lager with Ale Malt you cant get it as pale as you could with Pilsner Malt but with a Lager yeast it will be a Lager, perhaps not as clean and crisp as would be achieved with Pilsner malt.

If you are very technically minded the following link gets way too far into the genetics, for a rough example think about horses, there are three members of the family Equidae. Horses, Donkeys and Zebra. No amount of breeding (or even body paint and high heal shoes) will turn a donkey or a zebra into a horse, you may be able to train one up to be useful, even rideable, but it wont be a horse.
Mark


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/17)

Well answered man, thanks

I guess one could sub a little sucrose in to adjust the ebc and dry it out a little? might be just as chrisp


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## crowmanz (17/11/17)

In your title you talk about pilsners but in your OP you talk about lagers. I've made many fine lagers with ale malts and lager yeast but none have been what I would characterise as a "Pilsner". If I'm chasing pilsner I would start with pilsner malt, usually I just want a nice lager so ale malts come out fine.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/17)

I thought lager's were pilsners, just typically not as bittered?

I do understand that pilsen malt is what authentically is used to brew a pilsner though. Is this correct?


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## homebrewnewb (17/11/17)

Lagen - to store
Lager - Yeast strain
so @Doctormcbrewdle you're asking about a lager as a beer style i suspect? styles are pretty iffy at the best of times, not sure if you could call a commercial pilsner less bittered, i guess you could - american pils springs to mind. don't forget about the pils water profile too.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/17)

No, no. They are typically MORE bitter, not less

Pilsen water is very devoid of mineral content, same as my water


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## MHB (17/11/17)

Helles, Pilsner, Märzen, Bock, Dunkel, Doppelbock, Schwarzbier... perhaps even some examples of RIS are all "Lagers" in that they are brewed with a *lager yeast.* It's the yeast that defines the family.
Pilsner malt is the name given to most of the malt made for commercial Larger brewing, it is less intensively kilned than Ale malt (BB call theirs Pale Malt), higher in SSM precursor to DMS, paler and traditionally less well modified (last COA for Weyermann Premium Pilsner I looked at had a coarse/fine difference of 0.8 - so very highly modified)

Anything brewed with an Ale yeast is an Ale, even if its a very pale, dry crisp beer it's still an Ale

In common parlance Lager is mass market beer with an OG around 1.040-5 and 20-5(ish) IBU's. Pilsner tends to be 5 or so points higher in both OG and IBU's.
There are a ridiculously large number of "Lagers" made in the world (about 90% of global beer production), the malt choices, mash regimes, water chemistry are very style dependant, the above mentioned low mineral content is a reference to the water at Urquell which is really low in everything.
A Munich Dunkel may have a very different set of requirements - its still a lager.
Arguable the malt available, the water and hops as well as the yeast made Urquell the beer it is, it also means that to match the beer you are looking at 90-120 minute mashes and 2 hour boils, not an simple style to copy, a lot easier if you use more salts (mostly Ca and Mg and Zn) and a more conventional mash and boil.
Mark


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## nosco (17/11/17)

The book Brewing Classic Styles is good read for learning styles and ingredients.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/11/17)

Pilsner malt is just a pale Ale malt...ie..a little less kilning so it is a bit lighter...underneath it is essentially the same grain used for both


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/11/17)

nosco said:


> The book Brewing Classic Styles is good read for learning styles and ingredients.



Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels is even better


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## Lionman (17/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I thought lager's were pilsners,



All pilsners are lagers, not all lagers are pilsners.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/17)

Wth is going on?.. lol I'm more confused now than when it first started


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/17)

How bout I just make a pilsner with ale malt and see if it's good? Haha, I'll try that


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (17/11/17)

I made a Saison and used 80/20 base malt split with Ale malt and rice.

Worked a treat for getting a lighter colour and taste body in the pilsner malt spectrum.


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## bradsbrew (17/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Wth is going on?.. lol I'm more confused now than when it first started


You're confused? What about a Black IPA, that's confusing.


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## Lionman (17/11/17)

bradsbrew said:


> You're confused? What about a Black IPA, that's confusing.



Yeah, shouldn't they be called IBA?


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## good4whatAlesU (17/11/17)

Republican Stout/Ale would be better.

We would be much stronger than those Indian or Imperial wussies.

Pilsner comes from those Bohemians .. and a damn good job they did too. I like it.


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## labels (18/11/17)

Pilsner malt certainly leaves a pilsner-malt sweetness in the beer whereas ale malt or even other lager malts do not - not anywhere near as much anyhow. So there is definitely something special about pilsner malt though I'm not sure exactly what it is, something in the way it's malted no doubt.


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## Lethaldog (19/11/17)

Just do it, brew with whatever malt you have and if you wanna call it a lager, use a lager yeast or use an ale yeast and call it an ale, which ever way you go it will still be beer[emoji23][emoji106] All jokes aside I typically try to stick close to style but I have done plenty of “chuck whatever I have left in” brews including leftover hops and they all came out great, not sure what they technically were ( apart from yeast used) but I know without a shadow of a doubt they were all beer[emoji482]


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## Doctormcbrewdle (20/11/17)

Think I will do this. I'll report back in a while with the results!


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (21/11/17)

MHB said:


> Pilsner malt is the name given to most of the malt made for commercial Larger brewing, it is less intensively kilned than Ale malt (BB call theirs Pale Malt), higher in SSM precursor to DMS, paler and traditionally less well modified (last COA for Weyermann Premium Pilsner I looked at had a coarse/fine difference of 0.8 - so very highly modified)



To get the required pale colour with older barley varieties required deliberate under modification. With modern varieties it's not hard to get good colour with "full" (KI>40) modification.


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