# US05 vs S-04



## Let's Brew Beer

Doing these two safale strains side-by-side in a chocolate stout (16L US05, 4L S-04) batches, and noting differences. anyone else tried doing this? would be interesting to hear what the results are. cheers.


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## Danscraftbeer

It will be interesting to here what the result are so please do post them.
There is more attempts posted than results on the internets I find.


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## Danscraftbeer

I've had plenty good results from US-05. Two fails I've had was the times I used S-04. It wimps out and doesn't do the job compared to US-05 that can kick arse on a very wide range.
I guess S-04 is for a specialty odd stout maybe. I'm not interested in it when its weak.


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## mstrelan

Did you pitch a quarter of the amount in the smaller batch?


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## GalBrew

If you scroll down a bit through the recent posts there is a topic all about getting s-04 to ferment out. I like to think that s-04 tests all your brewing know how to get your beer fully fermented. Sure it keeps you on your toes, but you are rewarded with great flocculation at the end!


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## Let's Brew Beer

mstrelan said:


> Did you pitch a quarter of the amount in the smaller batch?


yes.


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## Thefatdoghead

I just watched an episode of chop and brew where Chris England talked about s-04 and over yeasting. 
He recommended pitching less than half a pack in a single batch of wort. Was concerned with stripping flavour in a rye coffee stout


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## Let's Brew Beer

After 3 weeks fermenting i have racked both beers, both beers fermented around 18C-20C, both finished @ 1.012 i did notice however that the beer with the s04 strain did finish earlier than the US05 brew, but apart from that nothing really that different between the two. Will let both beers condition for 2-3 weeks and see how they both taste. cheers.


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## dannymars

I tried this last year with a Dr Smurto Golden Ale......

Things I noticed...


S04 took longer to finish than US05
S04 was considerably cloudier than US05 version
S04 tasted more fruity (esters) than US05 version.

At first I thought the US05 version was a superior drink. But as the kegs emptied I think I prefer the S04 version....


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## GalBrew

dannymars said:


> I tried this last year with a Dr Smurto Golden Ale......
> 
> Things I noticed...
> 
> 
> S04 took longer to finish than US05
> S04 was considerably cloudier than US05 version
> S04 tasted more fruity (esters) than US05 version.
> At first I thought the US05 version was a superior drink. But as the kegs emptied I think I prefer the S04 version....


That's odd about the beer clarity. S-04 usually drops like a brick (especially compared to us-05) and gives you a very clear beer.


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## Brewman_

dannymars said:


> I tried this last year with a Dr Smurto Golden Ale......
> 
> Things I noticed...
> 
> 
> S04 took longer to finish than US05
> S04 was considerably cloudier than US05 version
> S04 tasted more fruity (esters) than US05 version.
> 
> At first I thought the US05 version was a superior drink. But as the kegs emptied I think I prefer the S04 version....


As luck would have it...

I just knocked up a version of 150 Lashes off Brewbuilder.

Made a triple batch 78L.

I took two batches and pitched US05 in one and SO4 in the other. Both are at 20 Deg.C. ( So this is the upper limit recommended for S04.)
Both were oxygenated for 90 seconds.
It is now Day three. about the 75Hr mark

My observations so far.
1) SO4 Krausen was visible and the airlock was bubbling after 12Hrs The US05 batch had the same observation at around the 24Hr mark.
2) Now the fermentation is in full swing, both smell fine and look a little different. The SO4 now has no krausen, looks flat. The US05 has a foaming low Krause,
3) Gravity reading taken now. SO4 1010, (Expected FG) US05 1018 and still bubbling away.

Both taste and smell awesome.

I will continue to update. I added the quote above because I expect the exact opposite to your observations dannymars, except for the taste (Edit here, want to see the difference in taste, why I am doing these two batches), and that is what I am testing with these two batches.

As far as cloudiness goes, this is not a good beer, and probably irrelevant because I want cloudiness. But will update nonetheless

Cheers Steve


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## menoetes

I use both fairly regularly; us-05 for American (and most of my Australian) style beers and s-04 for my British ales.

My past experiences have shown that s-04 can tend to 'stick' just before finishing so I like to make a big starter or pitch onto the yeast cake of my last s-04 brew. Both generally mean I get a nice vigorous ferment, even at lower temps (as in <18'c). As Brewman has shown, good oxygenation is also important to get the most out of both these yeasts.

I just love the esters S-04 gives me in my ESBs so I'm willing to go the extra mile to get it going.


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## MHB

For anything other than American ales, 04 has always been my go to dry yeast. Never had any problems with it (well other than once when I forgot to reset the temperature - not the yeasts fault). Never had any problems with 05 either, just don't find it attenuates, nor sediments as well, always leaves the beer a little sweet and bland. Both have their uses and the choice would depend on what you are looking for in the finished beer.

Honestly I think the problems people report with both yeasts are more to do with the brewer than the yeast. All the dried yeast on the market preform well in a healthy wort, including 514 that cops an undeserved bagging, I doubt there is a better yeast for a faux Lager or light bodied low flavour beer (horses for courses).

Seriously if you are having trouble with yeast preforming to specification take a long hard look at what you are feeding it.
Mark


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## pcmfisher

Brewman_ said:


> As far as cloudiness goes, this is not a good beer, and probably irrelevant because *I want cloudiness*. But will update nonetheless


You want cloudiness?
And how do you arrange it?


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## Brewman_

pcmfisher said:


> You want cloudiness?
> And how do you arrange it?


To get the cloudiness I using Wheat malt, or a mix of flaked wheat and flaked / rolled oats.


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## Let's Brew Beer

Well after bottle conditioning for 2 weeks and leaving both beers to crash cool in the fridge for 5 days, after conducting a side-by-side taste-test i can confirm that there is a clear winner in my opinion when it comes to taste, mouthfeel and ability to put the malt forward in my stout and that is s04 easily, i will be using this strain from now on in all my dark beers. US05 i found left a somewhat bitter acidic note and didn't really show-case the malt character. I will say however that US05 did leave my beer with better head and head retention and slightly better lacing.


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## Dan Pratt

^ was that a blind test? Like you had someone else fill the glass and then you drank the and decided or did you know before you tasted them?


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## Reman

Or better yet, do a triangle test (see brulosophy.com)


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## peteru

My preference is to use the 05 in beers where freshest is best - so heavily hopped aroma driven styles, such as US-style IPAs.

The 04 works better with beers that improve with time, such as English bitters, porters, etc.

But, in a pinch, either will do just fine, you just need to control the temperature to get them to do what you want.


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## Fraser's BRB

peteru said:


> My preference is to use the 05 in beers where freshest is best - so heavily hopped aroma driven styles, such as US-style IPAs.
> 
> The 04 works better with beers that improve with time, such as English bitters, porters, etc.
> 
> But, in a pinch, either will do just fine, you just need to control the temperature to get them to do what you want.


I use both, as others have said, 05 for fresher more hop driven styles, my PA and Golden Ales. Use 04 for malt driven styles, ESB, stout, porter.

Can you elaborate on using temp to achieve different results with the one yeast peteru? Most recipes I've brewed from have called for 18 or 19deg for either yeast?


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## fletcher

i don't understand why you're comparing an english strain to an american strain. they're completely different yeasts.


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## danestead

fletcher said:


> i don't understand why you're comparing an english strain to an american strain. they're completely different yeasts.


I believe he is doing it to notice the differences. I guess its like doing smash beers to get a feel for whatndifferent malts and hops bring to the table. I think its a great idea and there should be more of it.


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## Let's Brew Beer

Pratty1 said:


> ^ was that a blind test? Like you had someone else fill the glass and then you drank the and decided or did you know before you tasted them?


No. i tasted the US05 pitched beer on the Saturday and the s04 pitched beer on the Wednesday.


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## MHB

fletcher said:


> i don't understand why you're comparing an english strain to an american strain. they're completely different yeasts.


If you look up the history of S-05 you will find it's an English Ale yeast popular in US breweries.
It may have drifted a bit since the original, yeasts all do that in response to different environments, but that doesn't mean it was originally American, any more than all the other lager and wheat yeasts they have stuck their name on.
Mark


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## Vini2ton

A wine-maker/vigneron I know once said to me," Most things from the USA are brash and over-stated." I often muse over these words when considering lots of stuff. But not yeast.


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## fletcher

MHB said:


> If you look up the history of S-05 you will find it's an English Ale yeast popular in US breweries.
> It may have drifted a bit since the original, yeasts all do that in response to different environments, but that doesn't mean it was originally American, any more than all the other lager and wheat yeasts they have stuck their name on.
> Mark


fair call, was just curious as to why he was comparing those two yeasts. i'm always happy to be educated more by knowledgeable people - particularly about yeasts.

if i were the OP, i would have personally compared 2 "american" strains, or "english" strains as i would have felt as though traits of said similar yeasts could be more closely compared; but i'm not and so i didn't, though i'm still happy to read his findings.


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## danestead

fletcher said:


> fair call, was just curious as to why he was comparing those two yeasts. i'm always happy to be educated more by knowledgeable people - particularly about yeasts.
> 
> if i were the OP, i would have personally compared 2 "american" strains, or "english" strains as i would have felt as though traits of said similar yeasts could be more closely compared; but i'm not and so i didn't, though i'm still happy to read his findings.


More on comparing strains: I compared wy1056 and wy1272 a couple of years ago and although I probably wouldn't do it again, it wasn't a waste of time. The 2 beers turned out very similar, with only very subtle differences.

I think it would be interesting, and I may do it one day, to compare wlp029 (kölsch), wy3711 (French saison), wy2308 (munich lager), wy1056 (american ale) and maybe one of the Belgian strains suited to a Belgian Blonde type beer. I've brewed the first three in that list and their malt and hop bills are very similar; however, the final product is quite different.

In the beginning when I was told that yeast is one of the dominant flavours in beer, I wasn't completely sold. Now that I've explored a far greater variety of those yeasts, I can happily say that yeast does have a huge impact on the flavour in your beer. I think it would surprise the general non-brewing public - not that they would get as excited about it as I do!


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## good4whatAlesU

I've just tried out these two (05 and 04) on a stout, can agree with much of the above.
The 05 took it's time and left a bit of suspended precipitate. 
The 04 went a lot faster and dropped out very quickly taking all the suspended matter with it to a dense trub.
I enjoyed the flavour of the 05, just kegged the 04 yesterday so I'll report back in a couple weeks. The green smelled a bit fruitier.. will see.


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## yankinoz

Towelboy-

Report the results if you can include fermentation temps.


Among popular dry yeasts the choices for making an American style ale include the US strains US-05 and BRY-97, but also the English strain Nottingham if during the first few days of active fermentation you keep temps below 16. All attenuate well. Notty forms a very compact sediment, BRY-97 less so, while US-05 tends to leave an easily disturbed sediment, a slight drawback if you bottle, not if you keg.

For an English ale the choices among Danstar and Fermentis products are S-04, Windsor, Notty at higher temps. Few people like the results with Notty. On various forums you can find diverse opinions on the flavour left behind by S-04. After several years hiatus I just tried it again on an English Best Bitter. Okay, but I've had better luck with liquid English strains. Windsor produces a wonderful set of esters, but flocculation is slow and it leaves a beer sweet, especially if you mash high. Before I swear off dry yeasts for English ales I'm going to try a suggestion of Ross's and mix Windsor and Notty.

Mangrove Jack offers a variety of "English" dry yeasts. I haven't tried any of them.


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## Let's Brew Beer

yankinoz said:


> Towelboy-
> 
> Report the results if you can include fermentation temps.
> 
> 
> Among popular dry yeasts the choices for making an American style ale include the US strains US-05 and BRY-97, but also the English strain Nottingham if during the first few days of active fermentation you keep temps below 16. All attenuate well. Notty forms a very compact sediment, BRY-97 less so, while US-05 tends to leave an easily disturbed sediment, a slight drawback if you bottle, not if you keg.
> 
> For an English ale the choices among Danstar and Fermentis products are S-04, Windsor, Notty at higher temps. Few people like the results with Notty. On various forums you can find diverse opinions on the flavour left behind by S-04. After several years hiatus I just tried it again on an English Best Bitter. Okay, but I've had better luck with liquid English strains. Windsor produces a wonderful set of esters, but flocculation is slow and it leaves a beer sweet, especially if you mash high. Before I swear off dry yeasts for English ales I'm going to try a suggestion of Ross's and mix Windsor and Notty.
> 
> Mangrove Jack offers a variety of "English" dry yeasts. I haven't tried any of them.


for fermentation temps see reply #8


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## Gigantorus

Anyone ever pitch both US-05 and S-04 together in a brew? Thinking of doing an amber ale and doing this and fermenting at 18C. Any do's or don'ts?


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## Coodgee

Few people like the results of notty? It's a pretty popular yeast.


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## dannymars

yankinoz said:


> BRY-97,


Avoid imo

I've had horrible problems with diacetyl with this yeast.... Trust that I know how to do a diacetyl rest etc etc, not crashing too soon etc... but I think you need to put in extra effort to avoid diacetyl when using this yeast.

ymmv


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## rude

Coodgee said:


> Few people like the results of notty? It's a pretty popular yeast.


Notty is a great yeast imho

Not sure what You mean few people like the results but it's popular


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## Kingy

Brewman_ said:


> As luck would have it...
> 
> I just knocked up a version of 150 Lashes off Brewbuilder.
> 
> Made a triple batch 78L.
> 
> I took two batches and pitched US05 in one and SO4 in the other. Both are at 20 Deg.C. ( So this is the upper limit recommended for S04.)
> Both were oxygenated for 90 seconds.
> It is now Day three. about the 75Hr mark
> 
> My observations so far.
> 1) SO4 Krausen was visible and the airlock was bubbling after 12Hrs The US05 batch had the same observation at around the 24Hr mark.
> 2) Now the fermentation is in full swing, both smell fine and look a little different. The SO4 now has no krausen, looks flat. The US05 has a foaming low Krause,
> 3) Gravity reading taken now. SO4 1010, (Expected FG) US05 1018 and still bubbling away.
> 
> Both taste and smell awesome.
> 
> I will continue to update. I added the quote above because I expect the exact opposite to your observations dannymars, except for the taste (Edit here, want to see the difference in taste, why I am doing these two batches), and that is what I am testing with these two batches.
> 
> As far as cloudiness goes, this is not a good beer, and probably irrelevant because I want cloudiness. But will update nonetheless
> 
> Cheers Steve


Any update on this Mr Brewman, I've just bottled and kegged a simple smash beer and saved a schooner of yeast cake (us-05) to put in an ordinary 4% English bitter. But I've got some s04 that I may use. I'm up in the air ATM lol.


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## good4whatAlesU

good4whatAlesU said:


> I've just tried out these two (05 and 04) on a stout, can agree with much of the above.
> The 05 took it's time and left a bit of suspended precipitate.
> The 04 went a lot faster and dropped out very quickly taking all the suspended matter with it to a dense trub.
> I enjoyed the flavour of the 05, just kegged the 04 yesterday so I'll report back in a couple weeks. The green smelled a bit fruitier.. will see.


The 04 turned out a little watery and somewhat bland (a bit disappointed) compared to the 05. Both fermented at about 19 degrees C.
I'll be going back to an 05 for this recipe.


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## good4whatAlesU

Well i had half a packet of 04 left so i chucked it in a leftovers batch (12L batch, 2kg of Ale malt) and its still fermenting 9 days later! Pretty much held 18/19 degrees the whole time.
I've never had a ferment go this long, I'm wondering if i under pitched or something?


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## GalBrew

good4whatAlesU said:


> Well i had half a packet of 04 left so i chucked it in a leftovers batch (12L batch, 2kg of Ale malt) and its still fermenting 9 days later! Pretty much held 18/19 degrees the whole time.
> I've never had a ferment go this long, I'm wondering if i under pitched or something?


I find with s-04 that pitching a bit more is always a good thing. When 04 fires it will rip through a ferment and drop like a rock and prevent the dreaded 1.020 stall!


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## Vini2ton

I was curious about S-04 after reading posts about it and having not used it since kit-daze. On the 5/9 I brewed 21 lts of 1.040 using golden promise, TF brown and Simp's med crystal. Pitched 1 sachet of S-04 rehydrated into 20 deg. Went off. Come 7/9 the air-lock stopped ( It's my fermenter and I'll airlock if I want too.) and I assumed the "1.020 stall" had manifested. On 8/9 I checked it and it had got down to 1.010. 12/9 it was 1.009 and I bottled the fucker. Samples tasted very nice. Similar experience with Windsor recently so if you reckon your up for it have a crack at any of them. The Windor beer is delish.


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## good4whatAlesU

Yep same, first time I used it it took off. This time slow and 9 days later it's still chugging away. 
Must admit though the first beer I made with it was not that great.


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## good4whatAlesU

10 days and still going. This stuff won't quit.

I'll take it out of the water bath and see if it sorts itself out.


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## good4whatAlesU

Gravity is at 1.006 it's done I think.

1.038 to 1.006 gives me 4.2% (?) a mid strength. Have siphoned into a secondary, I'll leave it sit keg it in a couple weeks.


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## Jazzman

Help me please!
I have a can of coopers stout and 1.5kg of dark malt extract and some dex. 
I wanna make a coopers stout. I have a packet of 04. 
Should i use the 04 and a coopers under lid packet?
Or just the 04?
Or two coopers yeasts which i have?
After reading this great thread i'm just a bit worried it may not come out how i want.
Any and all advice greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


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## DJR

Jazzman said:


> Help me please!
> I have a can of coopers stout and 1.5kg of dark malt extract and some dex.
> I wanna make a coopers stout. I have a packet of 04.
> Should i use the 04 and a coopers under lid packet?
> Or just the 04?
> Or two coopers yeasts which i have?
> After reading this great thread i'm just a bit worried it may not come out how i want.
> Any and all advice greatly appreciated.
> Thanks.


Just use the S-04 it will work fine for an english style stout


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## peteru

I've been unimpressed with S-04 for the last bunch of brews I did. I'd be inclined to chuck in two packets of the Cooper's yeast.


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## Jazzman

hmmm, so is the coopers yellow label stout an english or irish stout?
I quite like that drop and would like to get close.


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## LAGERFRENZY

I always used to throw in two packets of Coopers yeast for toucan or other strong stouts. They have always got the job done. If you want a slightly thicker brew drop the batch size down a couple of litres.


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## Jazzman

thanks for the help people.
l took a punt and used the 11g of 04 and the 7g of coopers under the lid yeast.
1 can coopers stout
1.5 kg dark malt liquid extract
500g dextrose
and i rehydrated the yeast

We'll see how we go. should be ok l hope.


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## Let's Brew Beer

How'd it turn out?


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## pablo_h

I like the flavours of S04, and did a few good beers in autumn with it but had troubles with it in winter and it drops out below 17C. 
First time I used s04 ages ago I got the dreaded 1020 stall. I fixed my issues with sanatation and nutrients but when the temps get lower over winter, s04 started dropping out due to cold temps and needed constant rousing to bring it back off the trub/bottom to finish the job (it was stopping in the second week about 1016/1017, not the same as a 1020 stall in the first week at warmer temps trouble I had before).
I fixed that in the end by using coopers kit yeast to finish the job. 
I could have persevered rousing and warming the S04, but I'd have flat beer in the bottles (or oxidized beer) if I kept going that route. But in the end I had beer mostly done with s04 (I like it's flavour), but beer finished off and carbed with the kit yeast (Didn't affect flavour that much, plus also rocketed it in to finish quick and carb in the bottles and be drinkable in 2 weeks of conditioning in cold ambients).
In contrast I stuffed around rousing s04 in another batch and it ended up oxidized and horrible. I left another batch alone to finish and it was just flat in the bottles.
So I recommend using s04, but bottling with coopers kit yeast. Only downside is not being able to reuse the s04 for a new brew as I wouldn't put kit yeast into a fresh wort.

E: OTOH problem with US05 is expect it to take up a fermenter for 3-4 weeks while it clears up. That yeast doesn't want to drop at all, completely the opposite to S04.


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## Brewnicorn

I've been reading up on a few yeast strains lately and the Ales I've made have been US-05 and S-04 mainly or BRY-97. What made me think a bit more recently was a thread I read about specialty saison yeasts that perform well for settling trub & eliminating the banana-ester flavour/smell and surprisingly some fruitiness which is kinda celebrated in a lot of pales. As a kit brewer it's got me interested. 
I'm a noob so go easy, but can anyone buy in to this with any authority? Anecdotal experience is better experience than where I am now when it comes to yeast.


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## Brewnicorn

*perform well in ales*** 
Meant to write that in. Duh ie- how do saison yeasts perform in ales like IPA, APA etc if anyone knows. Thanks. 
Signed - long bloody week.


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## Kingy

I'd imagine they wouldn't work to well. The saison yeasts I've used dry right out around the 1.000-05 mark. I used to love us-05 but I've been using s04 lately and it's been getting my beers down a few extra points. 
The trub settles out quick to. It's great in my full flavoured mid strength milds, ordinary bitter and light-mid brown ale/mild. Ferments out fast to. It's great for quick turn around beers. 
I wouldn't use a saison yeast for anything other than a saison.


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## Kingy

I'd imagine they wouldn't work to well. The saison yeasts I've used dry right out around the 1.000-05 mark. I used to love us-05 but I've been using s04 lately and it's been getting my beers down a few extra points. 
The trub settles out quick to. It's great in my full flavoured mid strength milds, ordinary bitter and light-mid brown ale/mild. Ferments out fast to. It's great for quick turn around beers. 
I wouldn't use a saison yeast for anything other than a saison.


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## Brewnicorn

Thanks Kingy. It was odd to read it but it's out there. Having said that can't say I've never had anything get below 1.009 so that's encouraging. 
Do you ferment with temp control?


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## peteru

Brewnicorn said:


> It was odd to read it but it's out there.


There's a lot of bullshit on the interwebs. Some of it even looks and sounds plausible.


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## Kingy

Brewnicorn said:


> Do you ferment with temp control?


Yea mate, that's the best improvement you can make to your beers [emoji482]. If you don't use temp control it should be your main priority on your list of things to get. 

Saying that I don't use temp control when fermenting saisons as they like to sit at the same temperature as my shed and they love it on hot days as well. It makes the yeastie babies feel at one with Mother Earth [emoji290] and it keeps them happy. The happier the yeast is the better beer they make for you.


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## Brewnicorn

Kingy said:


> Yea mate, that's the best improvement you can make to your beers [emoji482]. If you don't use temp control it should be your main priority on your list of things to get.


Yeah for true! I'm trawling for fridges on Gumtree and eBay and Santa has my Inkbird order. Never done a saison but the ale mastery is something I wanna get. 
Thanks for the good words!


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