# Bugger



## Mr Flocky (9/11/12)

Just put down another batch of three different brews, after swearing that I'd never do more than one at a time after last time. Maybe the fact that my previous three all tasted great gave me a bit more confidence to do it all again.

So as I'm cleaning up the remains of three brews, I pick up my bottle of Starsan. And remember that, despite washing out all my equipment both after the previous brew and before this brew, I had totally forgotten my Starsan treatment.

So now I've got three brews which all look like they're fermenting away fine, but over all of them hangs the possibility of infection. I hope that simply cleaning and rinsing will have been enough to chase away the greeblies, but I'm just imagining having three FVs of undrinkable beer.

Anyone else forgotten the sterilisation process and gotten away with it?


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## mikec (9/11/12)

Yep.


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## NewtownClown (9/11/12)

Mr Flocky said:


> Anyone else forgotten the sterilisation process and gotten away with it?




No, but I know of others doing just that.
If your water and pipes aren't filthy and a healthy active starter was pitched with a short lag time you may be ok.

Keep tasting and smelling


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## Black Devil Dog (9/11/12)

I guess it depends on how thorough your cleaning was. 
Also, if you didn't leave everything laying around dirty for days but cleaned it and used it immediately after bottling/kegging, I reckon you should be alright. If not, you're probably screwed. :excl: 

Best not to forget that step in the process.


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## angus_grant (9/11/12)

I bought a bottle of sanitiser but am yet to use it. I clean out my FV's with boiling water and sodium perc, then wash out with water to rinse the sodium perc out, then ferment away. No sanitiser in sight.

I do the same thing when fermenting is finished: boiling water and sodium perc, then cold water flush. Put lid back on and store in shed.

Also yet to get an infection... ymmv Well, actually I did have a possible infection earlier in the year but that was probably due to trying boiling tinned hopped extract (read it in Charlie Parpazian's book) and thought I'd try it out even thought it sounded strange. So I am not sure whether it was an infection due to cleanliness or due to yeast ill-health and other stuff taking over. Still, not bad for 10 years on and off of kit brewing.


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## wbosher (9/11/12)

A friend of my old man brewed for 20 years, and said he never sanitised once the whole time, just gave everything a really good clean. Never had a bad brew he reckons.

How true it is, I don't know, but that's what he said.


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## Cube (9/11/12)

I wonder if some people actually know what an infection smells or tastes like? Or even that infected beer exists.

"man that batch tasted like shit and smelt like vinggar... Got through it ok but not using that homebrand kit a 1kg sugarz again!"

:lol:


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## citizensnips (9/11/12)

You'll be right, as long as everything was clean chances of infection are minimal. I often question the use of sanitiser and try to use as little as possible as I dont believe its entirely necessary, thats just my opinion. I just tend to boil a full kettle and use that to rinse everything. Haven't had an infection yet! :chug:


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## Thirsty Boy (10/11/12)

being clean is 99% of being sanitary - in all likelihood you'll get away with it no problems. As an accident, take it how it turns out. Most likely it'll be fine.

On the other hand, dont take it as instruction if you do get away with it - me personally, i dont think I'd much care to try drinking the beer of a brewer who chooses not to sanitise deliberately. Their beer may well not be infected - but then again, if the few seconds of work it takes to properly sanitise is too much for them, how much do they actually care about their brewing? I'll stick to beer made by people who've put enough care, attention and effort into it, that they wouldn't dream of exposing it to a risk of potential infection that they could so cheaply and easily avoid.


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## Helles (10/11/12)

wbosher said:


> A friend of my old man brewed for 20 years, and said he never sanitised once the whole time, just gave everything a really good clean. Never had a bad brew he reckons.
> 
> How true it is, I don't know, but that's what he said.




I reakon he brews with a can can kit and probally a kg of (cane) sugar and wouldnt know any better


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## wbosher (10/11/12)

helles said:


> I reakon he brews with a can can kit and probally a kg of (cane) sugar and wouldnt know any better



Yep, you're probably right. With no rinse products out there, it's really so easy there's no reason not to sanitise, it's so easy.


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## 431neb (10/11/12)

angus_grant said:


> I bought a bottle of sanitiser but am yet to use it. I clean out my FV's with boiling water and sodium perc, then wash out with water to rinse the sodium perc out, then ferment away. No sanitiser in sight.
> 
> I do the same thing when fermenting is finished: boiling water and sodium perc, then cold water flush. Put lid back on and store in shed.
> 
> Also yet to get an infection... ymmv Well, actually I did have a possible infection earlier in the year but that was probably due to trying boiling tinned hopped extract (read it in Charlie Parpazian's book) and thought I'd try it out even thought it sounded strange. So I am not sure whether it was an infection due to cleanliness or due to yeast ill-health and other stuff taking over. Still, not bad for 10 years on and off of kit brewing.



I might have done 20 kits over the years and have only just started using a no rinse sanitiser. Previously I used the above method except I generally use warm water with the sodium percarbonate (unscented nappy wash) . I use a Coles branded one but have used a scented one to wash bottles in a pinch and rinsed VERY thoroughly).
The reason I do it with warm water is to conserve the hot water in my tiny hot water service in the shed for rinsing the barrel or bottles (the bittles via a brass bottle wash fitting). Beware though - mains pressure storage units are feeding fresh cold water into the HWS to push the hot out. For prolonged washing sessions I pause for a beer once or twice to let the HWS return to full temperature. It's turned up to it's maximum heat all the time.
Just thought I would share as I think that new brewers can be daunted by some of the sanitising recommendations. Just get a cheap sanitiser use it liberally on anything that will touch cool wort and rinse with boiled water. I cheat with my hot water service but boiled water is safest.
I was also shitting that the scented sodium perc would ruin a brew but I rinsed 3 times with the purple, bottle washer , sanitiser, squirty thing and then ran 'em over the brass bottle washer on the HWS.
If I can maintain clean enough gear in my shed anyone can. There's sawdust and sticky wort spills all over the place. Just spray it all down with sodium perc in a spray bottle and off we go....
ps angus_grant , years ago I was advised to boil kits every time I brew . I still do it to boil my hop additions when I modify kits and can't complain about the beer I'm making so I think your funky beer may well have been a true infection.


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## Mr Flocky (10/11/12)

Well they still smell ok. Haven't had a taste yet - will wait till I take another hydrometer reading. I'm just pissed off at myself - as has been said, it only takes a minute or two to do it. I even had the bottle of starsan out on the counter. If I do end up with one or two or three ruined brews, then that's a lesson I've learned - to be more methodical in my preparation. 

At least I have a good collection of previously brewed beers to make me feel better about myself.


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## Juzdu (13/11/12)

Mr Flocky said:


> Well they still smell ok. Haven't had a taste yet - will wait till I take another hydrometer reading. I'm just pissed off at myself - as has been said, it only takes a minute or two to do it. I even had the bottle of starsan out on the counter. If I do end up with one or two or three ruined brews, then that's a lesson I've learned - to be more methodical in my preparation.
> 
> At least I have a good collection of previously brewed beers to make me feel better about myself.


You didn't actually say what you 'cleaned' with? Unless I missed it. To clean just before a brew (and after bottling one) I use 10 litres of hot water with 1.5 tablespoons of Stericlean in my fermenter, use the bottlebrush to spread it all over the sides, then soak the o-ring, spoon, can opener, airlock etc in it for an hour or so. Take all the bits out, close it up with the lid and give it a good shake, and run some through the tap. Empty it out, fill with 10 litres of hot water, close and shake it again, then pour that water all over the bits (in my bath). Another 10 litres of hot water, shake and pour (and run through tap), and you can feel and smell all the stericlean is gone. Then i make the brew.

The only time I use my Morgans no rinse sanitiser is to sanitise my bottles just before bottling (I rinse each bottle with hot water after drinking).

There was an argument in another thread that my Stericlean is a cleaner not a sanitiser, but it hasn't failed me yet. If that's true, then I guess I don't sanitise either. What did you clean with pre-brew?


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## manticle (13/11/12)

To say you use boiling water and sodium percarb but don't sanitise is disingenous - both heat and sodium percarb have sanitising properties.
Generally agree with TB- if your stuff was clean, the beer will probably be fine but I wouldn't use that ( or the experience of 'never sanitised, never had an infection') as an indication that sanitising isn't a very worthwhile step. Believe my experience when I tell you that tipping 20-30 L of AG beer you've nursed for 2 weeks is depressing.


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## wyane (14/11/12)

+1 sodium percarbonate.
FWIW since someone mentioned warm water, we recently got an instant gas hot water thingo installed. This delivers water at 50C max. For sanitising of the FV, I fill it most of the way with "hot" water from the hot water tap. Boil the jug while this is filling -- about 1.7L -- and add that and it all ends up plenty hot enough for the job.


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## pcmfisher (14/11/12)

Velcro said:


> Ha, I was thinking the same thing. My Dad has been brewing for about 30 years - he loves his Brigalow Draught with a kilo of sugar - and he has always just given everything (bottles/fermenter/spoons/etc) a rinse with boiling water and strangely enough, rarely has a dodgy batch.
> 
> OT. I try to get him to try something new, but the old man is happy with his brigalow :lol: (Actually doesn't taste too bad on a hot day on the gold coast!)



Brigalow Draught- check

Kilo of Sugar - check

Gold Coast Weather - check

Rarely has a dodgy batch, tastes ok on a hot day

I obviously go to too much trouble with my brewing


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## drsmurto (14/11/12)

wyane said:


> +1 sodium percarbonate.
> FWIW since someone mentioned warm water, we recently got an instant gas hot water thingo installed. This delivers water at 50C max. For sanitising of the FV, I fill it most of the way with "hot" water from the hot water tap. Boil the jug while this is filling -- about 1.7L -- and add that and it all ends up plenty hot enough for the job.



For what job?

Bathing in? Bit too hot for my liking.

Sanitising? No, even if you managed to raise the temp to 60C (an almost full fermetner - say 20-25L at 50C topped up with 1.7L of 100C water wont raise the temp by much at all, 5C perhaps 10) you won't have killed everything (or much of anything really).

We regularly see threads where people advocate all manner of half arsed approaches to sanitation followed by the sage words - never had an infection. Russian roulette is fun no?

A few minutes effort with an actual sanitiser is a small price to pay for sanitary insurance for your beer. 

Sodium percarbonate is a cleaner. For those advocating its sanitising qualities, please provide some evidence for its efficacy. I've not seen any other than when mixed with surfactants and in high concentration at which point it's more likely the surfactants are doing the sanitising.


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## Nick JD (14/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> For what job?
> 
> Bathing in? Bit too hot for my liking.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't the H2O2 fizzing off the Napisan be a sanitiser at a high enough conc?


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## angus_grant (14/11/12)

I've always used sodium perc and boiling water. But I suppose technically the sodium perc is cleaning and the boiling water is doing some sanitising, so I am doing some of the proper job. 

Consider me rapped on the knuckles. I will mix up some of the sanitiser for my next ferment (hopefully last of my kit brews as I can shift to BIABs now) of Morgans Golden Saaz.


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## drsmurto (14/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> Wouldn't the H2O2 fizzing off the Napisan be a sanitiser at a high enough conc?



H2O2 reacts with just about everything, including metal ions in the solution. So to actually sanitise it would need to be in a very concentrated solution to overcome all the side reactions. At that point, even with pure sodium percabonate, you would need to rinse and rinse very well to remove all the byproducts/sodium carbonate leftover and that is without even considering what the effects of such a high concentration would have on the material you are trying to sanitise.

So maybe you could sanitise with it but i doubt many people, if any, would use it in high enough concentrations - not too mention the high dose rate would make it an expensive sanitiser that would require a lot of rinsing relative to the cheap no rinse sanitisers on the market.


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## Mr Flocky (14/11/12)

For what it's worth, I cleaned with hot (but not boiling) water and Neo Pink powder (which I now see claims to be washing and sterilizing powder). Just didn't finish the job with Starsan.

I popped the lid on one of them today for dry hopping purposes, and it looks and smells fine, and the others seem to be emitting no off odours so I'm thinking I got away with it. But I'm not gonna tempt fate again - I can't imagine how little fun pouring 69 litres of beer down the drain would be.


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## wyane (15/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Sodium percarbonate is a cleaner. For those advocating its sanitising qualities, please provide some evidence for its efficacy.



Hows me setting my 45th brew of the year today (somehow fell a week behind) "sanitising" with sodium percarbonate?
Half-arsed sage advice, yes, but the tea-leaves and goat intestines say it should work!


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## drsmurto (15/11/12)

wyane said:


> Hows me setting my 45th brew of the year today (somehow fell a week behind) "sanitising" with sodium percarbonate?
> Half-arsed sage advice, yes, but the tea-leaves and goat intestines say it should work!



Apologies, i should have made it clear i was after evidence not of the anecdotal variety. A subtle but important difference.


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## wyane (15/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Apologies, i should have made it clear i was after evidence not of the anecdotal variety. A subtle but important difference.



Apologies here too. Here I was thinking this was an online forum when it's obviously a highly influential peer-reviewed scientific journal. Subtlety is a spectrum ranging from sledgehammers to what-even-am-i-saying.


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## drsmurto (15/11/12)

wyane said:


> Apologies here too. Here I was thinking this was an online forum when it's obviously a highly influential peer-reviewed scientific journal. Subtlety is a spectrum ranging from sledgehammers to what-even-am-i-saying.



Head stuck in the sand?

People advocating half arsed approaches to sanitation are not useful for the new brewer/forum member who sees people reporting 'I don't sanitise and I've never had an infection in decades' and may take that as some form of ok to follow said half arsed approach. It's not. You have been lucky and that assumes you have the knowledge to know what the various infections taste like. I'm being generous and nice.

Sanitation is critical to brewing and should be the first thing people try to get right. Your approach is lazy and risky and it should be pointed out for those two elements.


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## GalBrew (15/11/12)

I for one would prefer an evidence based answer, rather than the musings of various kit brewers......


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## hoppy2B (15/11/12)

What about dry hopping with unsanitised hops? Now that's what I call half arsed. :lol:


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## Juzdu (15/11/12)

On the other hand, you know what you also never see? Anyone posting messages saying "I only ever used a rigorous process of cleaning with hot water and sodium perc, then all of a sudden one day I got a horrible case of infected beer". Having to prove that his regime works, lucky or not, should be no different to someone posting that it doesn't.

I'm new, and am not challenging anyone's cleaning/sanitising regime...but one thing i've noticed is the huge amount of "but i've always done it this way" posts on home brew forums. Very few people ever seem to know why. In the few weeks I spent researching how to make my own beer before trying my first batch, I got so wound up about kit yeast being useless, nobody can make a tasty home brew with K&K, carb drops are a poor way to bottle prime.....in the end I thought stuff this, i'm gonna start at the very beginning. Made a K&K wheat beer with kit yeast and it tastes fine. I was ready to have one sip and throw the thing out due to "that home brew taste" that everyone threatened my beer would have.

Admittedly, i followed the instructions carefully in using stericlean to clean my FV and equipment, I watched my fermentation temps and checked my hydrometer readings regularly, all thanks to info I gained from forums. But there's a lot of "my way is the only way" stuff on these forums that just simply isn't true.

Anyway, I digress...BUT...if anyone's followed a similar cleaning routine to wyane, and STILL had beer infected during fermentation, i'd love to hear it. In the mean time, with 45 successful brews, I say more power to him.


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## bignath (15/11/12)

wyane said:


> Here I was thinking this was an online forum when it's obviously a highly influential peer-reviewed scientific journal.



It's both.

Yes it's a forum, but isn't the whole point of a forum to be a place where people can come and ask questions, increase knowledge, gather opinions, and learn from others?

There's a time and place to listen to what people say on forum's, and knowing who to listen to and who not to is useful. When certain people chime in on threads, they should be listened to. There are heaps of "those" people on here, and Dr. Smurto is one of them.

I'd listen to what he says. Just because you may have gotten away with something so far, doesn't mean it's the best practise for brewing, and when less experienced brewers come along looking for the same kinds of answers (and this sanitation/sterilisation issue comes up REGULARLY) and they read advice that's not in the best interests, then they'll take that as gospel. 

then they will pass it on to other brewers as they get the courage up to leave an opinion on a forum, the cycle continues.

I often wonder what will become of this forum if it wasn't for the good work that experienced, dedicated brewers contribute, and what happens if they get pissed off with an increasing rate of incorrect info and leave. Then who will spread all the correct info?

There are risks in almost everything we do as brewers, and we have choices at every stage of the brewing process that can either be a good idea of a bad idea. Knowing when it's possible to cut corners and when it isn't is all fine and dandy, but that takes experience to decide, and once stuff is posted on the internet it stays out there for everyone to read, experienced or not.


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## bignath (15/11/12)

hoppy2B said:


> What about dry hopping with unsanitised hops? Now that's what I call half arsed. :lol:


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## drsmurto (15/11/12)

Juzdu said:


> On the other hand, you know what you also never see? Anyone posting messages saying "I only ever used a rigorous process of cleaning with hot water and sodium perc, then all of a sudden one day I got a horrible case of infected beer". Having to prove that his regime works, lucky or not, should be no different to someone posting that it doesn't.
> 
> I'm new, and am not challenging anyone's cleaning/sanitising regime...but one thing i've noticed is the huge amount of "but i've always done it this way" posts on home brew forums. Very few people ever seem to know why. In the few weeks I spent researching how to make my own beer before trying my first batch, I got so wound up about kit yeast being useless, nobody can make a tasty home brew with K&K, carb drops are a poor way to bottle prime.....in the end I thought stuff this, i'm gonna start at the very beginning. Made a K&K wheat beer with kit yeast and it tastes fine. I was ready to have one sip and throw the thing out due to "that home brew taste" that everyone threatened my beer would have.
> 
> ...



It's not my job to disprove the negative. That 'logic' is used by religous people - prove my invisible cloud dwelling being doesn't exist. You can't? Well then, he must exist. 

Not sanitising is not clever nor should it be encouraged. Not, apparently, getting an infection from not sanitising is not evidence that not sanitising is effective. The word you are looking for is luck.

A thorough sanitation regime is the very first step to brewing good beer and is something overlooked by so many. It's not hard, nor is it costly. The same rules apply to 1st time kit brewers and career professional brewers alike.


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## wyane (15/11/12)

All good and thanks for staying nice - really feeling the love  

Others have done long dissertations on the wisdom of forums versus scientific publications. On the internet no-one knows you're a dog and all that. I like this forum and have gained some great tips here, have seen some far-out suggestions too (sanitising hops for dry-hopping!? hehheh!). I think most of us are wise enough to take any assertions from half-arsed kit brewers like meself with a grain of sodium chloride.

I'll keep playing Russian Roulette with this pistol that holds 45 (and counting) in the chamber. It's approaching midday so I'm gonna put a couple of bottles of anecdotal evidence in the fridge. Cheers and happy brewing!


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## Nick JD (15/11/12)

A super-clean fermenter that's been well soaked in napisan and rinsed throughly with cold tap water is a lot more sanitised than a badly-cleaned fermenter that's had some Starsan sloshed about in it.


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## Juzdu (15/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> It's not my job to disprove the negative. That 'logic' is used by religous people - prove my invisible cloud dwelling being doesn't exist. You can't? Well then, he must exist.


Actually doc (and I can't believe I'm arguing a point here with you as you're kinda the closest thing i'll ever have to a god...if I may borrow your religious comparison), i'm asking you (or others) to prove the negative, not disprove it.

I want proof from someone that they've used a method similar to wyane and failed. He's provided proof that his method works (in 45 out of 45 cases at least, an impressive strike rate), you've provided proof that your method works (probably in a hell of a lot more than 45 cases), and you've even won awards using it. Up until now the proof from both of you is factual, not anecdotal.

If we could get factual info from anyone using non-sterilisation methods of cleaning that have failed, it'd pretty much wrap it up. If we don't get those facts, then it doesn't mean everyone should stop sterilising, it's obviously the safest way to run a clean shop. But it just might show us all that it's the uber way to clean stuff, and if you want to take a riskier approach then that's up to you.

And to BigNath's point, if anyone reads a 'no sterilise' method on this forum and takes it as gospel, they kinda deserve to get an infected beer, no? And what's the worst that happens? They learn from their mistakes....and it cost them a batch of beer. They come on here and say "Geez I saw that mug wyane post that i didn't need to sterilise, and my beer tastes like shite". And the sterilisers of this world can curse them for not doing proper research....and we all move on.


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## gravey (15/11/12)

Juzdu said:


> Actually doc (and I can't believe I'm arguing a point here with you as you're kinda the closest thing i'll ever have to a god...if I may borrow your religious comparison), i'm asking you (or others) to prove the negative, not disprove it.
> 
> I want proof from someone that they've used a method similar to wyane and failed. He's provided proof that his method works (in 45 out of 45 cases at least, an impressive strike rate), you've provided proof that your method works (probably in a hell of a lot more than 45 cases), and you've even won awards using it. Up until now the proof from both of you is factual, not anecdotal.
> 
> ...





I used the exact same method for about a year of homebrewing. roughly 20 batches. Then I got an infection. Now I sterilise with phos acid. Have I had an infection since?(another year, another 20 or so batches) The answer would be no. Anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty sure the effects of sanitiser has been well proven.

Why NOT do it, this is what I dont understand? Clean you fermenter, and let the sanitiser do its thing while you brew.....it's not hard, its not expensive, its not time consuming, so why are people so willing to take the risk?


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## wyane (15/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> A super-clean fermenter that's been well soaked in napisan and rinsed throughly with cold tap water is a lot more sanitised than a badly-cleaned fermenter that's had some Starsan sloshed about in it.



Seems so. Palmer says, "In my opinion, percarbonate-based cleaners are the best choice for equipment cleaning".
So cleanliness is next to godliness but the beer triangle says "sanitation". Germs are bad, ask anyone who spent time in a hospital in the 18th Century. And surfactants aren't sanitisers. And I've tried numerous times to tell the wife that hot water from the tap doesn't kill germs.

I rinse all my gear after use making sure there are no visible deposits. Store it sealed and the FVs are empty for all of a day or two between uses so no chance of spots turning into little penicillin experiments.
Bottles (plastic, clear. I am obviously a heathen) are rinsed capped after use and stored in a cool dark place.

More heathen points: I don't even own a bottle brush (abrasives + plastic = scouring which is great for creating little pockets for grime to sit). Rinse after use, store clean, soak in warm solution of sodium percarbonate for 30mins then rinse and fill.

OK so how's this: we laff at sanitising hops for dry-hopping. Then Palmer says we should boil sugar for bulk priming. We need to do some experiments. B)

Edit: and why is is called Napi_san_ anyway? What's the number for Choice magazine?


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## drsmurto (15/11/12)

Juzdu said:


> Actually doc (and I can't believe I'm arguing a point here with you as you're kinda the closest thing i'll ever have to a god...if I may borrow your religious comparison), i'm asking you (or others) to prove the negative, not disprove it.
> 
> I want proof from someone that they've used a method similar to wyane and failed. He's provided proof that his method works (in 45 out of 45 cases at least, an impressive strike rate), you've provided proof that your method works (probably in a hell of a lot more than 45 cases), and you've even won awards using it. Up until now the proof from both of you is factual, not anecdotal.
> 
> ...



Proof that wyane has the ability to identify the taste of the various infections he risks by not sanitising would be a useful starting point. 

45 out of 45 is statistically impressive but it doesn't alter the fact that he is not sanitising. 

Sanitising and sterilising are two very different things. We aren't being sterile when we sanitise, far from it. 

Whats the worst that can happen from not sanitising? Bottle bombs. Fragments of glass moving at significant speed. Personally, not something i am keen to experience but then i am not a fan of russian roulette or gambling in general.

There are vast numbers of strains of yeast and bacteria floating around in the air, living on various plants, in your hair, in your mouth, in your gut, that are more than happy to live/thrive/multiply in wort/beer. They have all evolved to utilise suagrs and the various products derived from the metabolism of sugars and other molecules in high sugar environments . Sanitising is reducing the risk that these organisms don't take hold. If you leave wort without pitching any yeast something will 'ferment' your wort, that is a given. By sanitising we reduce the numbers of these species allowing the yeast we pitch to thrive and outcompete other species. 

Again, i will make the point that my posts are simply to ensure that misinformation is not bandied about. I don't subscribe to the notion that 'someone who reads about people not sanitising and not getting an infection deserve to drink infected beer'. The forum is for fellow brewers to share our experiences and help each other. 

Propagating myths that not sanitising is ok is not helpful. Basic, common sense tells you that not sanitising is risky. If you choose to take the risk, that is your choice, but don't expect me to sit back and watch while people regurgitate their risk taking experiences as gospel.

If my posts get through to a few people and convince them to at least think about their sanitation regime then my time typing these posts has been worthwhile.


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## Dunkelbrau (15/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Proof that wyane has the ability to identify the taste of the various infections he risks by not sanitising would be a useful starting point.
> 
> 45 out of 45 is statistically impressive but it doesn't alter the fact that he is not sanitising.
> 
> ...



I 100% agree. Sanitation and cleaning is VERY important. Great post above!
A bloke at work told me he never sanitises.. Offered to bring in and swap some brews, I don't even want to try it.. He ferments at high temps, rinses and brews again. I couldn't do it.
In the time it takes me to get my kits going with my hop additions (boiling with DME) my gear is all sanitised. No extra effort!


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## wyane (15/11/12)

Just for the record it's 44 out of 45. One batch had a slight aroma of ethyl acetate on the trub after bottling.
Prior to using sodium-percarbonate I was using a bleach solution (250mL in 25L).
mhb put me onto the sodium-percarbonate (not via this forum, in his shop). As bleach breaks down some chemicals can leech into plastic and transfer some unwanted flavours into your beer.

I can't seem to see how I advocated for not sanitising. Just added comments based on my experience. As for taking advice from mugs, isn't that what the internet was made for?  
I like my hit rate and final product, so will keep slowly refining the process.

And Doc, keep doing what you're doing. Great advice and well dispensed. I'm not here to propagate myths but if there was One True Way to brew, then this whole thing would be redundant and we could argue about economic theory or other exciting stuff like that. Methods and mileage will vary. That's one reason why I find brewing so enjoyable.


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## wbosher (15/11/12)

Just a little off topic, but related...what about the cleaning side?

I am pretty anal when it comes to sanitising, I sanitise everything, sometimes twice. When it comes to cleaning though, I use no more than a clean cloth and hot water. No cleaning products.

After a brew I'll clean everything with a cloth and hot water, until it looks clean, then give everything a thorough rinse in hot water. Then I'll sanitise with starsan.

When I'm ready to do my next brew, usually a few weeks later, I'll again sanitise with starsan.

Is there a problem with not using some sort of cleaning product? The way I see it is if it looks clean it probably is, then starsan takes care of the bugs. Opinions?


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## alawishus (15/11/12)

I havent sanitised my kegs in years...is that bad?

alawishus


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## wbosher (15/11/12)

alawishus said:


> I havent sanitised my kegs in years...is that bad?
> 
> alawishus



Throw them out and buy new ones...throw them in my direction if you like.


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## Nick JD (15/11/12)

wbosher said:


> Just a little off topic, but related...what about the cleaning side?
> 
> I am pretty anal when it comes to sanitising, I sanitise everything, sometimes twice. When it comes to cleaning though, I use no more than a clean cloth and hot water. No cleaning products.
> 
> ...



I would be happier to fill a fermenter with wort that had been filled with a cap of napisan and warm water overnight and rinsed, than one that had just been wiped out and starsaned.


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## Juzdu (15/11/12)

Consistent information from retailers would help. This "Stericlean" was delivered with my home brew starter kit:

http://www.aussiebrewmakers.com.au/retail_...54600_item.html

I asked them what was in it, 'coz on another thread someone said it was caustic soda. The pack says "Contents: 90% Alkali salts", and that it is "Suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment". Tell me that won't make the doc's head explode! Anyway, they got back to me and said "Stericlean does not contain any sodium, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"
The instructions that come with it say to mix 2-3 teaspoons per 5lt water.

I bought another 1kg of Stericlean from DHBW, here: http://discounthomebrewwarehouse.com.au/in...products_id=335

It says: Caustic cleaner incorporated with chlorine steriliser. Great for removing plaque on glass and stainless steel
The packs says "Contains: Trisodium Phosphate & sodium dichloro isocyanurate" and suggests I use 1-2 teasoons per litre of water.

Both called "Stericlean", but are they the same? How the hell can a non-chemist/scientist tell????


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## drsmurto (15/11/12)

Juzdu said:


> Consistent information from retailers would help. This "Stericlean" was delivered with my home brew starter kit:
> 
> http://www.aussiebrewmakers.com.au/retail_...54600_item.html
> 
> ...



Ask for the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for both products. They are legally obliged to have them as part of the OH&S legislation.

Any homebrew shop that stocks chemicals (cleaners, sanitisers, salts etc) should be able to give you an MSDS or point you in the direction of one. Unless the laws have changed in the last few years.


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## Juzdu (15/11/12)

I get the feeling they're the same, using the ingredients off the DHBW pack and wikipedia (fwiw):

Trisodium phosphate - is a cleaning agent, food additive, stain remover and degreaser....was at one time extensively used in formulations for a wide variety of consumer grade soaps and detergents, but ecological problems have largely ended that practice, at least in the western world. Substitutes are not as effective, but the raw chemical can be bought in bulk to add to other detergents

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate - is a chemical compound used as a disinfectant, biocide, industrial deodorant and detergent. It is found in some newer water purification tablets/filters. It is more efficient than formerly used halazone water disinfectant. Mechanism of action is the release of chlorine in low concentrations by constant rate

So there's my soap and chlorine i guess. And cleaning/disinfecting in one.


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## wbosher (15/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> I would be happier to fill a fermenter with wort that had been filled with a cap of napisan and warm water overnight and rinsed, than one that had just been wiped out and starsaned.



So you reckon that is just as good as the commercial cleaners that the LHBS supplies?


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## bignath (15/11/12)

wbosher said:


> So you reckon that is just as good as the commercial cleaners that the LHBS supplies?



Aimed at Nick above i know, but i'll chime in early and say i reckon Napisan is better than what i can get at my local. It's a quarter of the price (last time i checked), and it does a great job.

As soon as fermenter becomes empty, i hot water rinse all the chunks and solid matter out of it, then fill it with warm/hot water and throw in a cap worth of Napisan powder. 

I leave it overnight, but i've come back before after less than an hour and the thing is spotless. Empty it, hot water rinse a few times using maybe a total of 5lt's glad wrap it and store.

Hot water rinse and sanitiser, tip it out and refill with beer. Never need to go anywhere near cloths or other cleaning aids.


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## Juzdu (15/11/12)

Big Nath said:


> Aimed at Nick above i know, but i'll chime in early and say i reckon Napisan is better than what i can get at my local. It's a quarter of the price (last time i checked), and it does a great job.


Is it actually Napisan you buy? Or a homebrand equivalent? I read somewhere else on the forum to get the cheapest unscented napisan equivalent.....the other day in the supermarket I was in that aisle and started popping lids of to have a smell. The woolies homebrand one had a huge scent, almost knocked me out when i whiffed it. Went over to the actual Vanish Napisan brand stuff and was overwhelmed by the range..."Inwash & Soaker Oxiaction Intelligence", "Inwash & Soaker Plus Advanced", "Inwash & Soaker Oxiaction Crystal White". All Napisan brand. Then other brands such as White King, Dettol, Sard. Which do you buy?


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## Nick JD (15/11/12)

wbosher said:


> So you reckon that is just as good as the commercial cleaners that the LHBS supplies?



I haven't found the need to use commercial cleaners.


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## GalBrew (15/11/12)

Coles 'sensitive' napisan rip off is quite cheap, has no scent and does a great job of cleaning fermenters and kegs. I find PBW works better on hardcore stuff stuck to your kettle.


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## Black Devil Dog (15/11/12)

I've just been to woolies and while I was there I checked the Napisan and equivalent product range, one thing I noticed was there are variations in the % of sodium percarbonate. The one that had the highest percentage was in a purple container (can't remember the name), it had 35% compared to others as low as 25%, I think Napisan had 32%. I guess the percentage is a guide to which ones are better quality.


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## wbosher (15/11/12)

Thanks Nick, might go get me some napisan. Shame we used disposables for my boy, might have already had some.


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## Whiteferret (15/11/12)

wyane said:


> Hows me setting my 45th brew of the year today (somehow fell a week behind) "sanitising" with sodium percarbonate?
> Half-arsed sage advice, yes, but the tea-leaves and goat intestines say it should work!




Gotta ask, how quick are you drinking these brews?
Either you have a big stock of beer, or have simply drank them before some of the infections have taken hold.
Maybe you should let them age to let those flavours mellow/colonies to grow. :chug:


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## Juzdu (15/11/12)

whiteferret said:


> Gotta ask, how quick are you drinking these brews?


I'm kinda hoping he's sharing them with mates, 'coz I thought the same...20 odd litres of beer a week over 45 weeks would not make for a healthy liver, surely!


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## Beerisyummy (15/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Apologies, i should have made it clear i was after evidence not of the anecdotal variety. A subtle but important difference.



Just tagging along as a newbie to brewing. 
It's a very interesting topic. 

It's funny how anecdotal evidence plays a huge part in the motivation behind many scientific studies. Without it there would often be no reason to ask "why?".

Without chewing up anymore bandwidth. Good read so far. Different opinions all sharing the same sentiment without any real name calling.
I am the newbie reading this thread and I appreciate the shared wisdom.
Cheers
Ross.


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## dicko (15/11/12)

You can always tell when the full moon has passed when the whole trend tones down to an acceptable level  

Cheers


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## QldKev (15/11/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Head stuck in the sand?
> 
> People advocating half arsed approaches to sanitation are not useful for the new brewer/forum member who sees people reporting 'I don't sanitise and I've never had an infection in decades' and may take that as some form of ok to follow said half arsed approach. It's not. You have been lucky and that assumes you have the knowledge to know what the various infections taste like. I'm being generous and nice.
> 
> Sanitation is critical to brewing and should be the first thing people try to get right. Your approach is lazy and risky and it should be pointed out for those two elements.



My dad smoked for 50 years and never got cancer!    


Clean, clean, clean and then sanatise. If you can't be bothered doing that then piss off from this forum as we are trying to make great beer.

To the OP, fingers crossed you will get away with it. It will just come down to how much infection has set in and if you can taste it, hopefully none. 


QldKev

(not aimed at the OP) Why is it the noobs that always want proof we need to sanatise?


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## QldKev (15/11/12)

alawishus said:


> I havent sanitised my kegs in years...is that bad?
> 
> alawishus




Probably not, since you haven't used them


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## bignath (15/11/12)

Juzdu said:


> Is it actually Napisan you buy? Or a homebrand equivalent? I read somewhere else on the forum to get the cheapest unscented napisan equivalent.....the other day in the supermarket I was in that aisle and started popping lids of to have a smell. The woolies homebrand one had a huge scent, almost knocked me out when i whiffed it. Went over to the actual Vanish Napisan brand stuff and was overwhelmed by the range..."Inwash & Soaker Oxiaction Intelligence", "Inwash & Soaker Plus Advanced", "Inwash & Soaker Oxiaction Crystal White". All Napisan brand. Then other brands such as White King, Dettol, Sard. Which do you buy?



I actually buy the proper Napisan brand. Not because i don't trust other brands or mixes, but due solely to my local hard nose rip off merchant c#$%s supermarket not having a great choice, and the prices usually favour the napisan for the same strength.

Bribie (i think) once posted the name of a product including the brand that had a higher sodium perc % than the Napisan brand, but i can't seem to locate the product in my shop, so i go with Napisan.

Napisan is apparently the only thing that seems to always be on special at my local.


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## QldKev (15/11/12)

Big Nath said:


> I actually buy the proper Napisan brand. Not because i don't trust other brands or mixes, but due solely to my local hard nose rip off merchant c#$%s supermarket not having a great choice, and the prices usually favour the napisan for the same strength.
> 
> Bribie (i think) once posted the name of a product including the brand that had a higher sodium perc % than the Napisan brand, but i can't seem to locate the product in my shop, so i go with Napisan.
> 
> Napisan is apparently the only thing that seems to always be on special at my local.




I use the Di-San from Aldi, it's stronger and it's only about half the cost of Napisan brand. 

QldKev


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## bignath (15/11/12)

QldKev said:


> I use the Di-San from Aldi, it's stronger and it's only about half the cost of Napisan brand.
> 
> QldKev



yeah i wonder if that was what Bribie was on about. He seems to like his Aldi stuff.

Also explains why i can't find it, as i don't have an Aldi in my shithole lovely regional tourist hotspot.


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## QldKev (15/11/12)

Just found this. Looks like Di-san is his fall back.


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## stux (15/11/12)

Juzdu said:


> On the other hand, you know what you also never see? Anyone posting messages saying "I only ever used a rigorous process of cleaning with hot water and sodium perc, then all of a sudden one day I got a horrible case of infected beer". Having to prove that his regime works, lucky or not, should be no different to someone posting that it doesn't.



How about this,

I've only ever had an issue when something in the regime broke down.

2 examples

1) infected beer batch when the fermenter above it leaked, dribbling cider juices onto its lid, picking up god knows what in the fridge, and then dribbling into the lower fermenter. Nice infection... I posted the photo... moon colony.

2) 1 keg of a triple batch infected when the fermenter bag tore and spilled about 15L of beer into the unsanitized space between the bag and clean fermenter...

#2 is the exact proof you're looking for that unsantized surfaces increase infected beer chance. And the infection was quite subtle btw, but the two kegs from *inside* the bag, vs the keg from outside the bag taste completely different. I called the dodgy one a Weiss 



Now its funny, but the correlation anecdotally, based on my personal sampling is 100% of my infections have been on brews where there has been a breakdown in 'sanitation protocol', conversely, I've never had an infection on brews where my standard sanitizing practises are used.

Good enough for me.

Maybe not for you


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## wyane (16/11/12)

whiteferret said:


> Gotta ask, how quick are you drinking these brews?
> Either you have a big stock of beer, or have simply drank them before some of the infections have taken hold.
> Maybe you should let them age to let those flavours mellow/colonies to grow. :chug:



Yeah, have a lot of bottles (and no, I don't drink 5 gallons of beer per week on my own. Possibly more like 4  ).
Generally I sample a bottle at 3 weeks, but most are consumed between 30 and 60 days. The exceptional stuff (really good or really bad) are held over for 100 days or so. I've had 2 batches taste like vinegar in 2 years. I've found that if they taste bad after 3 weeks there's only a very slight improvement, it's just my empty bottle stock and the feeling of shame that stops me tipping it out.


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## wyane (20/11/12)

ok so for today's batch I _cleaned_ the FV as per usual using sodium percarbonate. But this time I followed that with a good dousing of boiling water then lid on and shake until the steam stopped hissing.

This was routine before switching from bleach to Na-perc but I must have stopped due to the assumption that Na-perc is a cleaner _and_ sanitiser.

edit: but of course all homebrew is "infected". it's just the degree right? and sensitivity of the flavour sensors or the imbiber.


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## squirt in the turns (20/11/12)

wyane said:


> but of course all homebrew is "infected". it's just the degree right?



I've often wondered about this statement. Don't commercial breweries face the same problems? Even if a bottled beer is pasteurized, it's still been "infected" (by something other than the intended yeast) at some point. Granted, as homebrewers we tend to brew and ferment in more infectious environments (dusty sheds, outside on a windy day, etc.), but even for a megabrewery with heaps of bling and clever CIP processes, absolute sterility of the wort from kettle to FV would be impossible.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/11/12)

thats why they have pasteurisers, sterile filters, sterile fillers and guys who's job it is to go around sampling and testing for microbiological contamination.

The "all homebrew is infected" thing is just a parable to make you be careful and remind you that you aren't "sterilising" diddly. Sanitise carefully and you can and should be more than capable of making beer that will remain uninfected for months and years and indeed effectively for ever.


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## thedragon (20/11/12)

I'm glad I'm not drinking the beer made by some of the brewers posting to this thread. 

My limited 3 years of brewing and the support of much more experienced people from this forum and my lhbs has reinforced the importance of (in order):
1. Sanitisation
2. Temperature control

Perhaps the risks associated with taking shortcuts is worth it for some brewers, but as far as I'm concerned, if you spent the time planning your brew, buying the ingredients, then the 4 hours on brew day bringing it all together, you may as well do it properly. 

As others have said, it's not helpful for new brewers to hear stories from the more "experienced" brewer that suggest that short cuts will give you good beer when it won't (quotation marks intentional - I've read the free tv thread). 

I'm sure there are people that leave their kitchens dirty and looking like a pig sty, yet have never had food poisoning. The food they cook is probably not deadly, but probably doesn't taste great and it's no endorcement for living that way. I'm not saying that people who take sanitising short cuts are brewing in a pig sty, but the importance of being sanitary and the impact that it has on taste should not be underestimated. 

I don't know.... maybe if your cranking out a quick K&k it's a risk worth taking. But if you ask me (and I know that no one has), AG or K&K, you should be proud of what your doing and do it properly: do it well and do it in a sanitised environment. 

People, you could do a lot worse than to listen to Dr Smurto's advice.

Edit: spelling


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## Nick JD (20/11/12)

I like to read the yeast companies rundown on how many bacteria and wild yeast are in the packet you just bought. 

Not much ... but not _none._


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## manticle (20/11/12)

Pretty sure fermentis provide measured levels somewhere.

Will have a look


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## thedragon (20/11/12)

Nick, I agree with you 100%, however it doesn't mean that people should endorse knocking out brews using unsanitised equipment as a matter of routine. I'm not saying that you've suggested this, you haven't, it's just that what some people have written cold be taken as saying that it is OK to do.


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## Nick JD (20/11/12)

thedragon said:


> Nick, I agree with you 100%, however it doesn't mean that people should endorse knocking out brews using unsanitised equipment as a matter of routine. I'm not saying that you've suggested this, you haven't, it's just that what some people have written cold be taken as saying that it is OK to do.



I dismantled some fermenter taps the other day. How every batch that went through those fermenters wasn't infected is beyond me (pitching big whacks of healthy active yeast might be a lot of the reason) because they stank. 

Like something anoxic. Like river mud. 

We like to think we're clean, but making beer is more about presenting a capable army of yeast than it is about giving them a clean place to eat. 

And yes, as clean as you can! But as my Nana used to say, Home should be clean enough to be healthy, and dirty enough to be happy.


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## manticle (22/11/12)

manticle said:


> Pretty sure fermentis provide measured levels somewhere.
> 
> Will have a look



This is from the fermentis saflager w-3470 pdf:



> Typical analysis:
> % dry weight: 94.0 96.5
> Viable cells at packaging: > 6 x 109 / gramme
> Total bacteria*: < 5 / ml
> ...



I believe most/all strains produced and packaged by fermentis have this information. Not sure about other brands.


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## Nick JD (22/11/12)

manticle said:


> This is from the fermentis saflager w-3470 pdf:



So those 5 bacterial cells ... what happens to them (let's include the million in your sanitised fermenter too)? 

Do the yeast kill them? Do they live in conjunction with the yeast but only have such a small population that their byproducts are below the threshold of taste?


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## DUANNE (22/11/12)

how many commercial brewerys dont sanitise? im sure if they believed that it was not needed they wouldnt do it, why waste money on sanitising everything and eroding youre profit margin when just a good clean will do the job?


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## Nick JD (22/11/12)

BEERHOG said:


> how many commercial brewerys dont sanitise? im sure if they believed that it was not needed they wouldnt do it, why waste money on sanitising everything and eroding youre profit margin when just a good clean will do the job?



Some of them don't even have lids on their fermenters!


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## bum (22/11/12)

Gladwrap?


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## Beerisyummy (22/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> Some of them don't even have lids on their fermenters!




Also, How do you sterilise a continuous fermenter when the original yeast stock has bacteria present?

I love all the old photos of the open top fermenters made from concrete and timber. I know the modern ones are all SS. but they say a lot for the point you're trying to make.

As a noob I'm quite aware that you are not suggesting a total lack of sanitation.


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## hoppy2B (22/11/12)

Has anyone who posted on this thread actually looked up the definition of sanitation in the dictionary? From my understanding its really only a good cleaning.


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## bum (22/11/12)

I get all my brewing tips from Webster's.


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## jyo (22/11/12)

bum said:


> I get all my brewing tips from Webster's.



And why wouldn't you? He was really cool.


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## Beerisyummy (23/11/12)

jyo said:


> And why wouldn't you? He was really cool.
> 
> View attachment 58692



 Now that put a smile on my dial before leaving for work.


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## mckenry (23/11/12)

Funny this should arrive in my email today from beersmith
The email is titled, 'Brewing to lose'

Tip #1

1. Never Sanitize or Sterilize your Equipment - Bad beer requires bacteria, wild yeasts and other beasties to produce sour off flavors. The Belgians have known this for hundreds of years, and relied on wild yeast and bacteria in many of their greatest brews. Go Belgian on your next brew - stop all of that unnecessary washing and sanitizing and let your equipment go native. You will save money and precious time. No one likes to clean their equipment - so just reuse the rotting gunk from your last batch to spoil your next one


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## Beerisyummy (23/11/12)

manticle said:


> This is from the fermentis saflager w-3470 pdf:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe most/all strains produced and packaged by fermentis have this information. Not sure about other brands.



I have a brochure for the White Labs yeast range. It states "White Labs liquid brewers yeast is tested to be over 95% viable, 100% free of wild yeast, aerobic bacteria and aneaerobic bacteria".

I know that they are trying to say it's pure but it also reads as a product that contains "aerobic bacteria and aneaerobic bacteria". Gramma was never my strong point so I could be horribly wrong there.


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## manticle (23/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> So those 5 bacterial cells ... what happens to them (let's include the million in your sanitised fermenter too)?
> 
> Do the yeast kill them? Do they live in conjunction with the yeast but only have such a small population that their byproducts are below the threshold of taste?



I don't think the yeast kill them - just prevent them from multiplying to levels where they become a problem. Like other microflora, bacteria can happily remain dormant for some time.

As far as I understand, that's one reason people often recommend against re-using dried yeast.

Not sure myself whether that recommendation is sound but I tend not to sweat the extra 6 or 7 bucks on the odd occasion I do use it (and rarely sweat the 11 bucks for a fresh smack pack of the strain I want to use).

Quite likely there's loads more actual info out there than the snippet I posted. Anyone really interested should be able to find something more without much stress.


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## bugeater (24/11/12)

Beerisyummy said:


> I have a brochure for the White Labs yeast range. It states "White Labs liquid brewers yeast is tested to be over 95% viable, 100% free of wild yeast, aerobic bacteria and aneaerobic bacteria".
> 
> I know that they are trying to say it's pure but it also reads as a product that contains "aerobic bacteria and aneaerobic bacteria". Gramma was never my strong point so I could be horribly wrong there.



It's saying it is 100% free of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. Not that it contains them.


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## bugeater (24/11/12)

manticle said:


> This is from the fermentis saflager w-3470 pdf:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe most/all strains produced and packaged by fermentis have this information. Not sure about other brands.



This info probably means they did not detect any bacteria or wild yeast, but can't claim there aren't any since there is a detection limit to any test.


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## Mr Flocky (16/12/12)

Well I've finally tried all three brews I put down, and not a hint of infection. I got lucky. I might just do one brew at a time from now on. Fewer distractions.


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