# How Much Yeast Do You Pitch ?



## Pumpy (14/2/09)

I have been reading Jamil Zainasheffs book Brewing Classic styles and have brewed a few of his recipes .

I have started to take notice of the yeast pitching rates and it recommends foe a 23 liter batch of Californian Common 

*3 liquid yeast packages *or make an appropriate starter 

My 2 liter Flask of will only double the amount of yeast in the original yeast package 

This is becoming hard work as I need another one .

I have forty litres of wort to ferment & effectively need the equivalent of six packages .

I really need two or three 2 litre starters to make enough yeast for the brew .

At $2.65 in dry malt for two litres starter this is getting expensive !!!!

I am thinking of fermenting 20 litres for a ferw days and then adding the next 20 litresto the fermenter when the yeast has buit up a bit more .

What do you do how important is pitching the correct yeast levels to attenuation ?

I am sure Jamil ( Demigod ) has don his homework on this subject .

Pumpy :unsure:

Do you pitch enough yeast??


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## matti (14/2/09)

Interesting though Pumpy. 
I was Told by TB I under pitch LOL so I should't give you tips.

But if Jamil reckons you should pitch 3 pack of liquid yeast I think you should, if you want to achieve a similar or same results as he do.

Honestly I believe your starter of 2L should be enough for 20L batch.
The you can use that cake to pitch onto for your second Batch.

Just ensure you achieve a good thick slurry and aerate well when you pitch it.

My 2c worth again

Matti

Matti


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## braufrau (14/2/09)

linky

I'm completly re-editing this post after reading pumpy's properly. 

Yes, I pitch round about what MrMalty (aka Jamil) says. Unless I stuff up. Stuffed up last time .. lovely beer. 

$2.65 for dried malt is 5% or so of the cost of the beer. I don't think about it. Compared to a pack of wyeast its a pittance. I think mucking about with 2 lots of 20 might be a bit of a pain. Do you have the wort already in cubes?
My inclination would be to do the first 20, bottle, and then add 100ml of slurry to the second, but not for any scientific reason.


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## Pumpy (14/2/09)

Yes Matti perhaps your right but I have been inspired by Jamil 

and he say's quote :-

"Proper Fermentation is what sets great beers apart from just OK beers "

i just want to improve my beers .

Pumpy


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## Pumpy (14/2/09)

braufrau said:


> Check out MrMalty (i.e. Jamil's) pitching calculator.
> There's no way I'd be pitching 3 packs of yeast .. am I made of yeast? Does he think yeast grows on trees?
> If your OG is 1.050 and 23 litres you need 2.4 pack of yeast or 1 litre of starter from a stir plate, 1.5 with intermittent shaking.
> 
> linky




Yes Baufrau ,

I just think Jamil is trying to put the amount of yeast into perspective or a measurement we can all understand 

he does qualify it by saying or Make an appropriate starter .

Pumpy


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## schooey (14/2/09)

Was listening to a Jamil radio show this afternoon (1st time ever) and he mentioned that for a 6 gallon batch of 1.052 OG wort you would need to pitch two packets of WY or two vials of WL. He described the adverse effects of underpitching and it really started me wondering whether I had underpitched a couple of beers that had some funky phenolic flavours.

Really good food for thought...


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## TidalPete (14/2/09)

Pumpy,

I emailed Jamil yesterday on another matter & was very happy when I got a response within 24 hours.
If you are game enough just email him to find out if he is on a retainer from the liquid yeast mobs. :lol: 

With the jokes over I can't see why you will not get enough ale yeast cells when pitching a starter of up to 1500ml max.
Perhaps saving 4-5 litres of wort every brewday to build up your starter to your expectations would help?

TP


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## schooey (14/2/09)

TidalPete said:


> Perhaps saving 4-5 litres of wort every brewday to build up your starter to your expectations would help?



I've been saving 2L bottles lately... I'm going to grab 10kg of the pale malt MHB has for $2/kg and mash a 1.040 wort and freeze it to make starters with later. Cheaper than LDME


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## white.grant (14/2/09)

I think it was Tony who posted recently about collecting the unused runoff from the mash for starters. Cheap and easy. I just keep forgetting to do it  

I just got myself a nice 3000ml erlenmyer flask and stir plate for making starters, I also try to manage my brew schedule so that I ferment a "smaller beer" first and collect the yeast from that for the bigger beer. Basically I'm using a brew as a starter but getting beer out of it to boot.

cheers

grant


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## Cortez The Killer (14/2/09)

Pumpy said:


> At $2.65 in dry malt for two litres starter this is getting expensive !!!!


I've been drawing off a litre or 2 toward the end of the boil into a flask, letting this cool and stepping up into it

The rest goes into a cube

Come pitching time I'll dump all of the starter into the fermenter 

I try and maintained reasonable fermentation temps for the starter - so any funky flavours don't end up in the final product

Other option is to start with a small beer with a low OG and pitch the cake into a bigger batch

Cheers


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## jimi (14/2/09)

Hi Pumpy,
When I went down to the flying horse gerard was lamenting the lack of ferm. space he had at the time as was telling me he used to be able to add more wert after 3 or so days in the ferm. with the old fermenter space he used to have.
Following that thinking my cubing practise for the last couple of batches has involved putting the wert into 2 X 10ltr (they hold a bit more than that though) cubes. I pitched a good starter to a single cube and added the second cube a few days later. I was a lot more concerned about pitching volume than usual as those batches were my first venture into lagers (with 2112 and it had been behaving oddly).
The beers have been ok and I'll follow the process again


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## SJW (14/2/09)

OK I will put on the flame suit and say that, I reckon in a lot of cases if u go by what Mr Maly says you would be over pitching, esspecially when re-pitching yeast slurry. I have never had any adverse effect from pitching a Wyeast Lager yeast straight into a 1.050 wort, and even made some award winning beers from using way less than what Jamil says.

Steve


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## WitWonder (14/2/09)

Pumpy said:


> I have been reading Jamil Zainasheffs book Brewing Classic styles and have brewed a few of his recipes .
> 
> I have started to take notice of the yeast pitching rates and it recommends foe a 23 liter batch of Californian Common
> 
> ...




Does sound like alot for an ale. I've been having problems with lagers attenuating and have been increasing the amount of yeast I pitch for each batch to see what the improvement is. My last batch (40L) of 1.046 wort is still fermenting after almost 3 weeks and the attenuation is only around 46%. Clearly I'm not pitching enough. For this batch I stepped up from 100ml, 1L then 2L overnight on a stirplate before pitching with the 2L being wort from the batch I was pitching into. I'm guessing I'd need to step up to 2L twice (decanting between steps). 

Whilst I've looked at the MrMalty calculator I don't really understand how to apply it to the situation where you don't actually start with a pack of Wyeast. If someone can explain how to work out how many yeast cells you get with what or how to use the calculator when you're not using new packs of yeast I'd find that helpful.


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## TidalPete (14/2/09)

schooey said:


> I've been saving 2L bottles lately... I'm going to grab 10kg of the pale malt MHB has for $2/kg and mash a 1.040 wort and freeze it to make starters with later. Cheaper than LDME



schooey,

That's great mate.
I've worked out my Promash recipes to give me an surplus litre every brew I make. That, plus the extra wort I get from pouring all the crap into a jug after draining the kettle & letting it (The jug) settle out gives my system an extra 2.5 litres (More or less) to get my next starter going & I keep 1.00Kg dried yeast in case of emergencies.

TP


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## buttersd70 (14/2/09)

If you have a really close read through jamils pages, there is one little bit there where he makes mention that his recomendations, as far as wyeast pitching, on his calculator is for yeast that is suspect in it's handling or storage, not for fresh, properly maintained or stored, activators. It's in a little footnote in the text somewhere....


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## SJW (14/2/09)

> Does sound like alot for an ale. I've been having problems with lagers attenuating and have been increasing the amount of yeast I pitch for each batch to see what the improvement is. My last batch (40L) of 1.046 wort is still fermenting after almost 3 weeks and the attenuation is only around 46%. Clearly I'm not pitching enough. For this batch I stepped up from 100ml, 1L then 2L overnight on a stirplate before pitching with the 2L being wort from the batch I was pitching into. I'm guessing I'd need to step up to 2L twice (decanting between steps).
> 
> Whilst I've looked at the MrMalty calculator I don't really understand how to apply it to the situation where you don't actually start with a pack of Wyeast. If someone can explain how to work out how many yeast cells you get with what or how to use the calculator when you're not using new packs of yeast I'd find that helpful.


I used to have this problem then I took a nice lower graivty brew with few hops or very little trub transfered into the fermenter and just pitched a Wyest. Then just split the yeast cake up into 5 or 6 stubbies. I would say that when I pitch half a stubbie of thick yeast into a brew there is heaps of yeast evn for a Lager.

Steve


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## Pumpy (14/2/09)

TidalPete said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> I emailed Jamil yesterday on another matter & was very happy when I got a response within 24 hours.
> If you are game enough just email him to find out if he is on a retainer from the liquid yeast mobs. :lol:
> ...



Yes Jamil has got a lot of time for brewers questions he is so into it Pete 




Cortez The Killer said:


> I've been drawing off a litre or 2 toward the end of the boil into a flask, letting this cool and stepping up into it
> 
> The rest goes into a cube
> 
> ...



Cortez that is an excellent idea going to try that next time 




jimi said:


> Hi Pumpy,
> When I went down to the flying horse gerard was lamenting the lack of ferm. space he had at the time as was telling me he used to be able to add more wert after 3 or so days in the ferm. with the old fermenter space he used to have.
> Following that thinking my cubing practise for the last couple of batches has involved putting the wert into 2 X 10ltr (they hold a bit more than that though) cubes. I pitched a good starter to a single cube and added the second cube a few days later. I was a lot more concerned about pitching volume than usual as those batches were my first venture into lagers (with 2112 and it had been behaving oddly).
> The beers have been ok and I'll follow the process again




Miss ya Jimi and the family , That may be the way to go save making such big starters for 40 litres 

Pumpy


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## oldbugman (14/2/09)

pumpy when I was cubing I would always pull off a coke bottle 1.25 1.5 (what ever was handy) worth and use that for a starter. also interesting to see colour and clarity.


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## Pumpy (14/2/09)

OldBugman said:


> pumpy when I was cubing I would always pull off a coke bottle 1.25 1.5 (what ever was handy) worth and use that for a starter. also interesting to see colour and clarity.



OBM Yes that is definately the way to go save a few buck 's too 

pumpy


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## Batz (14/2/09)

SJW said:


> OK I will put on the flame suit and say that, I reckon in a lot of cases if u go by what Mr Maly says you would be over pitching, esspecially when re-pitching yeast slurry. I have never had any adverse effect from pitching a Wyeast Lager yeast straight into a 1.050 wort, and even made some award winning beers from using way less than what Jamil says.
> 
> Steve




+1
On the button SJW

Batz


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## yardy (14/2/09)

SJW said:


> OK I will put on the flame suit and say that, I reckon in a lot of cases if u go by what Mr Maly says you would be over pitching, esspecially when re-pitching yeast slurry. I have never had any adverse effect from pitching a Wyeast Lager yeast straight into a 1.050 wort, and even made some award winning beers from using way less than what Jamil says.
> 
> Steve



gday steve,

just to get this straight. you're saying you've pitched a wyeast lager pack (no starter) straight into a 1050 wort ?

cheers 
Yard


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## RobB (14/2/09)

buttersd70 said:


> If you have a really close read through jamils pages, there is one little bit there where he makes mention that his recomendations, as far as wyeast pitching, on his calculator is for yeast that is suspect in it's handling or storage, not for fresh, properly maintained or stored, activators. It's in a little footnote in the text somewhere....



Page 288 of Brewing Classic Styles. He basically agrees that one pack is enough for 5 gallons of 1.048 wort, then adds "....However if the yeast is not at its freshest or has been mishandled, you will need to make a starter."


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## buttersd70 (14/2/09)

Malty Cultural said:


> Page 288 of Brewing Classic Styles. He basically agrees that one pack is enough for 5 gallons of 1.048 wort, then adds "....However if the yeast is not at its freshest or has been mishandled, you will need to make a starter."



Cheers MC, thats word for word what he has on his webpage as well.


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## Adamt (15/2/09)

My motto with yeast is: "If in doubt (about yeast quality/age), make a starter."


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## Thirsty Boy (15/2/09)

If you look at the Wyeast pitching rate calcultor... you might notice that it bears a remarkable design similarity to the Mr Malty pitching rate calculator..... following the things I have heard Jamil say, and what he does for a living.... leads me to the conclusion that if his calculations are good enough for Wyeast to more or less re-produce on their homepages (and I think personally coded by Jamil) .... then they are probably pretty close to the mark

Re-pitching calculations.... you'd have to be being pretty fast and loose to say that his rates are over or under pitching... his voiced opinion is that re-pitching is a matter of brewer skill and knowledge and that his site is the "best representation" he could make of that - and that is reflected in the rates recommended for a re-pitch into a 20L, 1.50 ale... 41ml of thick yeast with no no-nyeast material --- right up to 231ml of pitch with thin slurry and higher non-yeast percentage

so there is a 5.5 x factor depending on how you actually manage your re-pitch. Hardly a restrictive range.

His rates for pitching from a vial are much more concrete and there is a reason for that. 100 billion cells in a fresh pack/vial. a much more certain figure.

Jamil's pitching rates work on the basis that around 4 generations of growth gives the generally accepted as "best" flavour profile... its all worked backwards from there. Its not designed to make your life hard.. its designed to help you make the best beer possible given that 4 generations of growth. Yes - - an 8L starter is a bit of an ask, but that 8L starter is designed to give you the optimum pitching rate for the beer in question -- the thing is... if you go for less, are you _sure_ that you know better than Wyeast? are you _sure_ you know better than the guy that has won the best brewer in the biggest brewing competition in the world - twice!! If you are; hell, do whatever you want, you know best. If you aren't - then maybe, just maybe; there is something to take note of in the calculator

If you are a beginner brewer --- some of those rates are hard to imagine. Bit an experienced brewer with a stirplate and a an ability to plan for future brews?? if you cant get to the MrMalty pitching rates in a pretty much 4L demijohn.... then to be honest (and rather arrogant) you need to learn a bit more about how yeast works. I actually don't understand the issue, I have stir plate and I have no trouble getting to the MrMalty rates (without a stirplate I can see the problem)

Jamil might not be right, and his calculator might be up the putt... but the assumptions behind it aren't. They are backed up be a hell of a lot of home brew and craft brew research.

Be honest... are you sure that your preferred pitching rate is better?... or is it just that your preferred pithing rate is easier? I think there is a hell of a lot of "that would be harder, my way _must_ be better" involved in the amount of yeast people pitch.

I personally pitch at roughly about 1 million cells per ml per plato (for a lager, more if cold pitched, about 2/3rds that for an ale) and the Mr Malty calculator gets me to near enough to that, so I no longer bother to check. Its a pain sometimes and I might well get away with less.. but I don't know, because I have done a lot of research and a lot of brewing; and that rate seems to match both things - so have never tried. All my bulldust needs to take that into account.

And Matti... I only thought you under pitched on cold pitched lagers..... not on anything else. And I _did_ say that if your beers were good (with the assumption that they were) then obviously nothing needed to be changed. I'm sorry if you interpreted that as a shot at your brewing methods... it wasn't meant to be

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (15/2/09)

WitWonder said:


> Does sound like alot for an ale. I've been having problems with lagers attenuating and have been increasing the amount of yeast I pitch for each batch to see what the improvement is. My last batch (40L) of 1.046 wort is still fermenting after almost 3 weeks and the attenuation is only around 46%. Clearly I'm not pitching enough. For this batch I stepped up from 100ml, 1L then 2L overnight on a stirplate before pitching with the 2L being wort from the batch I was pitching into. I'm guessing I'd need to step up to 2L twice (decanting between steps).
> 
> Whilst I've looked at the MrMalty calculator I don't really understand how to apply it to the situation where you don't actually start with a pack of Wyeast. If someone can explain how to work out how many yeast cells you get with what or how to use the calculator when you're not using new packs of yeast I'd find that helpful.



Hey - I missed that before I went on my little rant. I have been working on the following assumption, and I will be most glad if someone points out that I am wrong.

A slant - add 10-20ml of wort - wait for that to obviously ferment out - add that to 125ml of wort and wait for that to ferment out ---assume that that is roughly equal to a Wyeast pack of a whitelabs vial - go with the calculator as though you had a 100% viable pack from there.


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## matti (15/2/09)

TB
Your post are always long and opinionated which a rather enjoy.
No sitting on the fence here either but I try to be honest give the best advice I can without be over-"beering".
I didn't take offence and I seldom do because I am quite aware what is written can come out different to how it was meant to without a smiley or comment. 
I also find it nearly impossible to know if things are written toungue in cheek or written directed as a shot at me so I take it all with a pinch of salt and laugh it off.  

There is litttle doubt in my mind that if you havent got the resources to calculate the amount of yeast you are better trying to achieve a good starter and have at least 3/4 or 5/6 of the yeast you intended to have and then aerate rather then risking over pitching.

As for if my beer are any good.
That depend on who you ask and when you ask. I'd be honest that my last batches have been OK. My APA went down well but they are not that hard to do.
My lagers do vary a lot.
There are more variable in making decent lager then an Ale.
My brewing lager Beer by Gregory Noonan has been read about a dozen time from cover to cover and I still have to refer to it because my brain cannot hold that much information.

Of course there is a lot to do with understanding yeast and how much is neccessary for what type of beer.
I got a little possessed by learning about yeast and its behaviour and found that the knowledge came very useful and i started to worry less about my brew and the unworrying improved be brews ten fold.

But i find that each time you use a new (to yourself) yeast strain it is well worth doing research on what beer and how other people us it and of course their result.
So back to start of the this thread *if Jamil says then you should follow *as long as you can read between the lines.

Matti


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## Thirsty Boy (15/2/09)

there you go - multiple line of text to work out that we agree after all.

Prost

TB

edit - could not spell my own nic, the whole two letters of it


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## braufrau (15/2/09)

Pumpy said:


> Yes Baufrau ,
> 
> I just think Jamil is trying to put the amount of yeast into perspective or a measurement we can all understand
> 
> ...



But that's not my post! Wah! I edited it 3 seconds after I posted it.


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## Pumpy (15/2/09)

schooey said:


> I've been saving 2L bottles lately... I'm going to grab 10kg of the pale malt MHB has for $2/kg and mash a 1.040 wort and freeze it to make starters with later. Cheaper than LDME



That is a saving Schooey 

say 3.5Kg pale malt for $7.00 from MHB will give 20 litres 1.040wort = 10 X 2litre Coke bottles 

allow 5 bucks for gas = $13 that works out at $1.30 for 2 litres of wort about half the price for the light dried malt extract . which cost me $2.64 

for two liters .


Perhaps I should also be planning the brews a bit better to take advantage of the yeastcake in the bottom of the fermenter is also a way to go.

eg. work up from a lighter beer to a heavy beer 

English Mild requires 1 package of yeast
English Bitter requires 2 packages of yeast 
robust Porter requires 2.5 packages of yeast 


Ferment a 
English Mild with an OG of 1.036 when that is done 

Then put a English best bitter with an OG of 1.047 on the yeast cake, when that is done 

Then put a Robust porter with an OG of 1.064 on that yeastcake .


Pumpy


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## braufrau (15/2/09)

SJW said:


> OK I will put on the flame suit and say that, I reckon in a lot of cases if u go by what Mr Maly says you would be over pitching, esspecially when re-pitching yeast slurry. I have never had any adverse effect from pitching a Wyeast Lager yeast straight into a 1.050 wort, and even made some award winning beers from using way less than what Jamil says.
> 
> Steve



Wyeast designed their pitchable packs to go straight into 23l of 1.050 wort didn't they? So Mr Malty prolly is being very conservative. 

The size of the starter he recommends depends strongly on the viability of the yeast. I probably err on the optimistic side and take the default of 90%.  which gives pretty reasonable sized starters for an ale.

For slurry though, if you put todays date as the collection date, you only need about 160ml. I've never stored slurry to pitch so that seems pretty reasonable to me. The amount of slurry to pitch goes up pretty steeply with storage time.

His reccomendation of 3l for 1.050 of lager wort seems a bit boring to me ... but I've never made a lager  


I hope my stirrer flea arrives tomorrow!


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## Pumpy (15/2/09)

braufrau said:


> His reccomendation of 3l for 1.050 of lager wort seems a bit boring to me ... but I've never made a lager




Well there you go Braufrau 

Pumpy


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## braufrau (15/2/09)

Pumpy said:


> Well there you go Braufrau
> 
> Pumpy



where do I go? i still make up his recommendations for ales.


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## yardy (15/2/09)

i pitched 1968 ESB London straight into my Irish Red yesterday, didn't even break the nutrient pack, checked it this morning at 6 am and the lid is domed and there is definite activity there, 20*C btw.

wrong thing to do but my efficiency was down and the SG came in around 1.040 so i thought bugger it, just a big starter really...

cheers
Yard


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## Hogan (15/2/09)

G'day Pumpy 

I have been pitching half a tube of WhiteLabs to make a starter for some time now. Start with 200ml then step straight up to 2lts for Lagers (or 1lt for Ales). Heaps plenty yeast is the result. Considered saving wert from previous brews but too much rooting round. Using the DME but it does add up over time. Suggest we get together with Kabooby and do a bulk buy from ESB.


Cheers, Hoges.


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## A3k (15/2/09)

Hi all,
Sorry if this is a highjack, was considering a new post, but this was similar topic.

Im not overly experienced with liquid yeasts, but just used the Wyeast 2000 Budvar Lager in an AG Czech Pilsener. I pitched a big starter for me, started with 500ml then 2L, then decanted the wort and did another 2L. Probably fermented the starters a bit warm but oh well.

I pitched into the 24L wort at 14deg on Monday night just been and it was down to 11 the next morning and has been there since.

I was expecting a reasonable lag and a long ferment, however the next day there was activity, and I took an SG reading today (5days later) and it appears like its pretty much done. OG 1052, now at 1012.

The sample I took tasted clean as. Couldnt actually detect any sulphur or anything. Looks like I missed the chance for a diacetyl rest, but dont think it was necessary this time.

Is this a ridiculously quick ferment for a lager yeast? 
Now Im considering putting another batch on some of this yeast cake.

Cheers,
Al


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/09)

If you have an active starter then 0.5-1 ltr is plenty.

1/2-1 cup of slurry is more than enough


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## ozpowell (15/2/09)

A3k said:


> Probably fermented the starters a bit warm but oh well.



:icon_offtopic: 
Not sure what you mean by "warm", but my understanding is that all starters should be built at around the low 20's - regardless of the strain - to encourage maximum yeast growth. Just be sure to decant large starters to minimize any odd flavours in your beer. FWIW, I make all my starters at room temperature.


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## SJW (15/2/09)

> gday steve,
> 
> just to get this straight. you're saying you've pitched a wyeast lager pack (no starter) straight into a 1050 wort ?
> 
> ...


Yes! If I do that I would pitch as per the Wyeast instructions and pitch warmer, but a 1.50 wort is no probs, with good airation. But like I said I only do that once with a beer that has fwe hops and little trub transfer to the fermenter. Then I bottle the yeast cake into stubbies.


Steve


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## Pumpy (15/2/09)

braufrau said:


> where do I go? i still make up his recommendations for ales.



Well there you go Braufrau!, 

I was not disagreeing with you. 

Pumpy


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## braufrau (15/2/09)

Pumpy said:


> Well there you go Braufrau!,
> 
> I was not disagreeing with you.
> 
> Pumpy



Phew!


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## captaincleanoff (12/3/09)

Im doing 65l batches, have previously been using dry yeast.. want to start using white labs vials.

Would an active starter of 2-3L be enough to ferment 65l?


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## reviled (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> Im doing 65l batches, have previously been using dry yeast.. want to start using white labs vials.
> 
> Would an active starter of 2-3L be enough to ferment 65l?



That should be sweet as mate, I normally do 500ml starters for 20litre batches, stepped up to 1 litre if its a big beer..


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## captaincleanoff (12/3/09)

should I pitch the whole thing or just the slurry?


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## reviled (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> should I pitch the whole thing or just the slurry?



It depends, alot of people say to just pitch the slurry cos sometimes off flavours from your starter wort (such as a high ferment temp, oxidisation etc) may come through in your finished beer.. I personally havnt found this and pitch the whole thing when its at full krausen, allthough my starters dont normally get above 25*c and havnt been oxidised yet so I havnt had a problem.. *Touch wood*


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## captaincleanoff (12/3/09)

is putting boiling wort into a plasic container a problem? Like a coke bottle?

Just considering if I need to buy a large flask or not


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## reviled (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> is putting boiling wort into a plasic container a problem? Like a coke bottle?
> 
> Just considering if I need to buy a large flask or not



I imagine a coke bottle wouldnt be cool cos its PET and would melt/warp almost instantly.. Youd want similair material to a cube or fermenter.. Ive read that Just Juice bottles may hold up cos its a different material?

What I do is just make up my starter wort in a pot on the stove, glad wrap the lid on and leave it in the kitchen sink with some ice water for about 30 mins, then pour it into a PET bottle and save for later, by this time it wont melt the bottle..


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## Screwtop (12/3/09)

To clarify -- we all like the yeast ester profiles in our ales right. So for ales of 1.050 or less pitching rates can vary, stressing the yeast a little due to temp or underpitching matters little, depending on style. Lagers though are clean beers with nil yeast esters in the aroma, a little sulpheryness (is that a word) but it is important to have clean fermentation. With lagers the yeast is working out of it's comfort zone at low temps so there needs to be plenty of healthy cells, yeast condition also needs to be taken into account. When it comes to lagers pitching rates and yeast health are more important.

Screwy


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## Fourstar (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> Im doing 65l batches, have previously been using dry yeast.. want to start using white labs vials.
> Would an active starter of 2-3L be enough to ferment 65l?


NO



reviled said:


> That should be sweet as mate, I normally do 500ml starters for 20litre batches, stepped up to 1 litre if its a big beer..



Unfortunatly it would be fine reviled if you wanted to underpitch terribly. 

Captaincleanoff. i covered this in your post lastnight. www.mrmalty.comcalc/calc.html go there and use it.

if you used 2 vials you would need a 8L starter its that simple. if you step it up it will be in different ballparks. If you just do a 2L starter you will be underpitching, sorry.

If i was in your bind and only had 1 vial. 'd go 1 vial in 500ml and ferment for 12 or so hours, then top-up with another Litre. Ferment out, crash chill, decant and topup with another L. Get to high krausen and pitch. That would be easier than a 10L starter but will probably still be well under the cell count required.

When doing big 60L batches you have to be prepared. I'd probably always do a small beer of around 10L. Maybe just buy a tin of goo, topup to 10L and pitch. Ferment this out, bottle it and give to your mates and use 3 cups of the slurry in your 60L batch. allot easier than doing big/long winded starters.


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## reviled (12/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Unfortunatly it would be fine reviled if you wanted to underpitch terribly.



Really?  But I never get very big lag times.. I just pitched a 1 litre starter into my belgian rye and it kicked off in less than 12 hours??? So I wouldnt say I underpitched..

Ive underpitched before and had to wait 3-4 days for fermentation, and the phenols were so badly noticable straight away!!


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## drsmurto (12/3/09)

Lag time (as far as i understand it) isnt a good indicator of under/over pitching.

What you will have is some extra by products of the stressed yeast in your final product.

Not such an issue on a hoppy APA or a big belgian maybe.

I've pitched a 5L starter into 20L of lager wort at 10C and still had a 3 day lag time (wyeast 2000)......


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## reviled (12/3/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Lag time (as far as i understand it) isnt a good indicator of under/over pitching.
> 
> What you will have is some extra by products of the stressed yeast in your final product.
> 
> ...



Wyeast 2000 was my 4 day lagger as well, I hate that yeast even tho it does a good job its a bitch!

Hmmm, feck, guess you learn something every day huh? So is a 1 litre starter good enough for 20 litres?? Or still epic fail? :huh: Im sure a wyeast smack pack isnt even a full litre? 

And by by-products are we talking yucky phenols and diacetyl etc?


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## Fourstar (12/3/09)

reviled said:


> Really?  But I never get very big lag times.. I just pitched a 1 litre starter into my belgian rye and it kicked off in less than 12 hours??? So I wouldnt say I underpitched..



Theres underpitching, and there is 'underpitching'. If lag times can be attributed to other factors becides cell count. If this was the only pointer to underpitching we would all be making beer with extremely incorrect cell counts.

A 1L Starter with 1 smack pack get you around 150 Billion cells. in 12-18 hours. For a 1.050 wort @ 23L, needing 750,000 yeast cells (ale) per ml of wort you would need 216 Billion Cells in total.

Ive only just recently started becoming an advocate of pitching the correct amount of yeast, only because ive hadthe same issue as you have with underpitching. Bad phenols.. my latest batch was pitched with approx the correct amount of yeast requirecd for the wort and has had the best profile out of a 1056 pack i have had to date (10+ Batches wiht this yeast.)

Give ThirstyBoys post at the start of this thread a read and http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php for pitching rate explanations.


Remember, underpitching wont make bad beer, pitching the correct amount of yeast will ensure you make a better beer.


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## reviled (12/3/09)

Hmmm interesting, I guess it depends on the yeast as well as to what kind of phenols you get, sometimes its desirable, but when it was the wyeast 2000 it was just so bad that I thought it was infected, turned out it wasnt and was just phenolic as ****! 

Man, now im gonna have to go and get a flask, and a stir plate, and prolly more stuff.. thanks heaps guys <_< 

:lol: But seriously, cheers. :icon_cheers:


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## sumo (12/3/09)

Where is the temperature setting on Mr Malty?

The calculator is excellent, don't get me wrong, however if you wanted to get the pitching rate correct, you need to consider the temperature also. Rule of thumb for me is 1 smack pack / vial per 25 litres @ 20C, 2 packs / vials per 25 litres @ 12C.


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## reviled (12/3/09)

sumo said:


> Where is the temperature setting on Mr Malty?
> 
> The calculator is excellent, don't get me wrong, however if you wanted to get the pitching rate correct, you need to consider the temperature also. Rule of thumb for me is 1 smack pack / vial per 25 litres @ 20C, 2 packs / vials per 25 litres @ 12C.



It might automatically calculate it when you change the type of beer from ale to lager in the top left hand corner?


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## Fourstar (12/3/09)

sumo said:


> Where is the temperature setting on Mr Malty?
> 
> The calculator is excellent, don't get me wrong, however if you wanted to get the pitching rate correct, you need to consider the temperature also. Rule of thumb for me is 1 smack pack / vial per 25 litres @ 20C, 2 packs / vials per 25 litres @ 12C.



Yuu are forgetting the most important part sumo. OG of the wort  Then young skywalker you will know the correct pitching rates for your wort! :icon_cheers:


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## captaincleanoff (12/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> If i was in your bind and only had 1 vial. 'd go 1 vial in 500ml and ferment for 12 or so hours, then top-up with another Litre. Ferment out, crash chill, decant and topup with another L. Get to high krausen and pitch. That would be easier than a 10L starter but will probably still be well under the cell count required.



I'll probably go with this option.

Unless anyone can suggest a better way to use 1 vial in 65L?


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## reviled (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> I'll probably go with this option.
> 
> Unless anyone can suggest a better way to use 1 vial in 65L?



Sorry for the shithouse advice cap


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## Fourstar (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> I'll probably go with this option.
> 
> Unless anyone can suggest a better way to use 1 vial in 65L?



actually i retract that idea as it would only give youn around 4.5Million cells per ml and you need around 10.

You can go 500ml, 500ml - this will get you to 2 smack packs. chill and decant excess.

From that, then add to a 2 L starter. That will get you to a pitch count of around 7million cells per ml. 2-3 Million~ under your requirement

If you wanted CORRECT pitching rate, the second round of steps you would go 1L then add another 2 L and either pitch the final 3 L or chill, decant ecess and pitch the slurry.


I hope that helps!


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## kabooby (12/3/09)

Why don't you pitch the yeast on to 10 litres of your wort. Ferment that and then use the yeast cake to ferment the other 55 litres. If you cant do that than I would suggest getting more yeast or making a large starter

Kabooby


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## captaincleanoff (12/3/09)

kabooby said:


> Why don't you pitch the yeast on to 10 litres of your wort. Ferment that and then use the yeast cake to ferment the other 55 litres. If you cant do that than I would suggest getting more yeast or making a large starter
> 
> Kabooby smile.gif



its a bit of mucking around - I'd rather be able to ferment the whole lot in one vessel.

Will do what Fourstar suggested


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## captaincleanoff (12/3/09)

what if I just pitch the vial straight into a 3l starter, wait for full krausen, then pitch this?


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## Bribie G (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> is putting boiling wort into a plasic container a problem? Like a coke bottle?
> 
> Just considering if I need to buy a large flask or not



I find that a brilliant starter bottle is a 1.5 heavy glass V8 veg juice bottle. You can wash it out easily and step it up from hot water system water right up to boiling water without any danger of cracking it. I've been using mine since November, it's immortal.





The downside is that initially you have to drink 1.5 L of V8 :icon_vomit:


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## Fourstar (12/3/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> what if I just pitch the vial straight into a 3l starter, wait for full krausen, then pitch this?



You will be looking at 6million cells per ml compared to the required 10million~ when it finally hits your 65 L wort.


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## SJW (12/3/09)

http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library...ealthyyeast.php

Interesting stuff on storing yeast.


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