# Grain for stout- soaking them



## Miran (15/10/20)

Looking for grain bill for 20 liters stout.. Easy one pls!!
Is the below one acceptable:
- 3.9 to 4 kg scooner malt cooper
-300 grams roasted barley
-300 grams carapills malt
- 0.5 to 1 kg flaked oats

I am thinking to soak them after milling for 24 hours?
Pls let me know what do you think! I do not have access to fancy grains up here in north and cost/time of postage is too high!


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## kadmium (15/10/20)

It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.

Should be similar to:
3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
1kg flaked barley
500g roasted barley

Aim for a low mash ph, you can add acidulated malt if you can get it otherwise I use lactic acid.

Willamette or Fuggles or similar hops to about 30ibus try both a 60m and a 30m addition maybe around 20:10 IBU

US-05 is fine or notty yeast.

Really depends on your efficiency and equipment setup in terms of quantities, usually the best way is to either convert a recipe for your system or speak in percentages.


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## MHB (15/10/20)

_"I am thinking to soak them after milling for 24 hours?"_

Out of curiosity - why? What do you hope to achieve
There are both pros and cons but without knowing your system any advice would be guess work.
Mark


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## JDW81 (16/10/20)

Hey Miran,

Stout is a pretty broad church, so a particular style you’re after would be helpful.

My go-to stout recipe was a dry Irish style, and it really simple (and scalable to any system).

- 71% Ale Malt (I used Maris Otter, but any pale malt would be fine)
- 20% Flaked Barley 
- 9% Roast Barley
- Fuggles hops (single addition at 60 minutes for approx 30-35 IBUs)
- Single mash at 64C

Ferment with Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast (although Nottingham/US05 would also be fine).

I’d agree with Mark, in asking what are you trying to achieve by soaking the grains for 24 hours. You soak them for the mash, and you won’t gain any additional benefit from soaking them prior.

JD


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## MHB (16/10/20)

There is an old mashing method called "Digestion Mashing" which did soak the malt overnight in ambient water, being European that was probably in the 6-15oC range.
There are some small efficiency gains (well at least all the malt is fully hydrated). There are also some issues, too long a soak and you can get some bacteria growing, these can add some pretty nasty flavour's that can survive the boil and end up in the beer. Costs more in both time and energy than a more conventional strike water temperature based mash in...
Personally I doubt the gains outweigh the drawbacks and I wouldn't think of soaking for more than say 12 hours.
But still interested in what the OP is trying to achieve.
Mark


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## hoppy2B (16/10/20)

He may be referring to cold steeping the roast barley.


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## kadmium (16/10/20)

That makes sense Hoppy


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## akx (16/10/20)

I've been cold steeping dark grains overnight for my stouts, and adding them into the kettle at flameout or even directly to the cube. My reasoning is to smooth out the roasty flavours (same as cold brew coffee) but I haven't done proper experimenting. One upside on adding it to the cube is I can split a batch and end up with 1 cube of stout, and another cube with IPA (with all cube hops). The downside is it's tricky to figure out how much malt to use as it's less efficient at colour and flavour extraction (in my experience).


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## Miran (17/10/20)

JDW81 said:


> Hey Miran,
> 
> Stout is a pretty broad church, so a particular style you’re after would be helpful.
> 
> ...


I just started all grain brewing. Had only one shot! Again my issue is that I cannot find some of items you guys are mentioning! So have to sit all days to see how can I make them from other available ingredients! Mark I do not want you start again blaming me for not listening 
Flaked barley is not in Darwin. I found dark roasted barley but chocolate barley and flaked one.. NOWAY! So I decided to make them by available one.. Pearl barley. The outcome in mash was not good! No issue with the malt but with grains yes. So I was thinking I may get more viscous gelly liquid/ color from miiled grains if I soak them for some time! Not sure about duration and water quality!


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## Miran (17/10/20)

kadmium said:


> It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.
> 
> Should be similar to:
> 3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
> ...


Tnx Kadmium,

I googled alot to find difference between flaked barley and oat. Seems I can not use them instead of eachother so I have to order it online. Is there any substitute for Flaked barley. My main target is to get a heavily bodied milk imperial stout. Tnx again for your advise!


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## kadmium (17/10/20)

Hi Miran. 

Unfortunately you may have to either order the grains specially or resign to brewing with the ingredients that you have available. 

An imperial milk stout would need chocolate malt, a biscuit type base malt like Maris Otter, and other specially crystal malts. 

You will also need lactose. I would suggest brewing less complicated beers, and getting a foundation for brewing. Not being negative or rude, but it seems you don't fully have a grasp on Malts and their relationship to each other and the final outcome of a beer. 

Mashing is a very complex process and to get great, repeatable beer that's actually enjoyable takes considerable knowledge unless you are following tested recipes.

So, unless you have a thorough understanding between malts, diastatic power, kilning, crystal vs roast vs base, residual sugars, PPG, colour, what each malt does to the PH of the mash, each malt profile and what each malt contributes to the beer among other things, simply throwing what you consider to be "similar" ingredients in will not produce good beer. 

Perhaps focus on what you have available, and look at brewing simpler beers. An imperial milk stout may require a reiterated mash to get the right OG, you need to consider BU:GU ratios and other things besides the mash ingredients. 

Get yourself some good quality base malt, and focus on producing some Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) beers to get a foundation of what you're doing. 

Additionally you need to properly understand your system and its efficiency, because the higher you go in malt bill generally the less efficient you become. After one brew you won't have any idea about what your system efficiencies are and you are likely to miss your target numbers by a large margin. 

Unless you then boost with DME your GU:BU ratios will be off among other things. So even IF you had a recipe, and the ingredients, you won't know if you will hit the numbers.


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## mje1980 (17/10/20)

akx said:


> I've been cold steeping dark grains overnight for my stouts, and adding them into the kettle at flameout or even directly to the cube. My reasoning is to smooth out the roasty flavours (same as cold brew coffee) but I haven't done proper experimenting. One upside on adding it to the cube is I can split a batch and end up with 1 cube of stout, and another cube with IPA (with all cube hops). The downside is it's tricky to figure out how much malt to use as it's less efficient at colour and flavour extraction (in my experience).



Ive been adding all dark malts at the end of the mash for years. Had issues with dark beers but once I started doing this, I’ve never gone back. And like you say, works great for no chill doublebatches


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## Miran (17/10/20)

kadmium said:


> Hi Miran.
> 
> Unfortunately you may have to either order the grains specially or resign to brewing with the ingredients that you have available.
> 
> ...


Agreed with Tnx. Already ordered flaked barley, chocmalt and lactic acid. Have enough lactoze and base malt ( Scooner Cooper). Will wait. Can you let me know a good reference for getting more familiar with malt. Too many stuff on Web contradicting each other! I am using braumiester 20L Plus. cheers


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## philrob (17/10/20)

Malt


Often playing second fiddle to hops in the minds of craft beer drinkers, malt is the backbone of beer: “No barley, no beer.” Malt defines the color, flavor, body, and alcohol of beer and has been cultivated for nearly as long as agriculture has existed. In this book, author John Mallett explains...



books.google.com.au


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## MHB (17/10/20)

Miran said:


> I just started all grain brewing. Had only one shot! Again my issue is that I cannot find some of items you guys are mentioning! So have to sit all days to see how can I make them from other available ingredients! Mark I do not want you start again blaming me for not listening
> Flaked barley is not in Darwin. I found dark roasted barley but chocolate barley and flaked one.. NOWAY! So I decided to make them by available one.. Pearl barley. The outcome in mash was not good! No issue with the malt but with grains yes. So I was thinking I may get more viscous gelly liquid/ color from miiled grains if I soak them for some time! Not sure about duration and water quality!


Anyone who knows anything about brewing could have told you that pearl barley needs to be gelatanised before you mash it. If you had asked.


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## GrumpyPaul (17/10/20)

MHB said:


> If you had asked.



You can't ask a question if you don't know what you don't know.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (17/10/20)

I was just thinking how patient Mark is helping out beginners who won't start in a sensible way, IE baby steps.

I think it is good to take advice, which Miran has done but struggle to see how anyone serious about all grain wouldn't read about and understand the basics of mashing malted vs unmalted grains


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## MHB (17/10/20)

GrumpyPaul said:


> You can't ask a question if you don't know what you don't know.


See post #3 this thread


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## Miran (17/10/20)

MHB said:


> Anyone who knows anything about brewing could have told you that pearl barley needs to be gelatanised before you mash it. If you had asked.


I do not like the way you reply questions!! I do not know anything at all but try to damn learn and damn frustrated with your bullies! But no choice as you are the one i need his advise. I read exactly what you wrote after first google i.e. "Gelatinize"! Thats why I oven baked barley which was a damn mistake! 


Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> "I was just thinking how patient Mark is helping out beginners............." I am afraind I do not agree with you!! Mark is not patient at all! I mentioned at start I am struggling finding stuff you guys are mentioing! Just returned back from City and checked all damn places including all asian markets to find some flaked barley.. all futile! Finally ordered online which will take at least three weeks!


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## Miran (17/10/20)

philrob said:


> Malt
> 
> 
> Often playing second fiddle to hops in the minds of craft beer drinkers, malt is the backbone of beer: “No barley, no beer.” Malt defines the color, flavor, body, and alcohol of beer and has been cultivated for nearly as long as agriculture has existed. In this book, author John Mallett explains...
> ...


Tnx alot. this is what I need


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## philrob (17/10/20)

Miran said:


> I do not like the way you reply questions!! I do not know anything at all but try to damn learn and damn frustrated with your bullies! But no choice as you are the one i need his advise. I read exactly what you wrote after first google i.e. "Gelatinize"! Thats why I oven baked barley which was a damn mistake!



I know Mark personally. He is definitely not a bully, as should be evident from the many posts he has, giving detailed information to so many questions. OK, some of his replies might be seen to be abrupt to some, but even a basic search about brewing generally will give answers to basic definitions of the brewing process. Just accept the way he responds, and learn from his wisdom! 

Here's another link which should be helpful. This is the online 1st edition of this book, and the print version is now up to version 3+, but the basic information is still relevant. Definitely worth a read, and should answer most of your questions.

Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew


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## Stoichiometrist (18/10/20)

philrob said:


> I know Mark personally. He is definitely not a bully, as should be evident from the many posts he has, giving detailed information to so many questions. OK, some of his replies might be seen to be abrupt to some, but even a basic search about brewing generally will give answers to basic definitions of the brewing process. Just accept the way he responds, and learn from his wisdom!
> 
> Here's another link which should be helpful. This is the online 1st edition of this book, and the print version is now up to version 3+, but the basic information is still relevant. Definitely worth a read, and should answer most of your questions.
> 
> Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew



This forum has a wealth of knowledge and good advice. But the cost of receiving that information should not be being belittled or vilified. The original poster made it clear that they did find these comments unpleasant. And they did this without resorting anger or abuse.
As a fellow newIsh homebrewer, reading the posts I found it discouraging to say the least. 
Is it just or fair to respond by projecting our own experiences and saying suck it up? I think more should be expected from the moderators,


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## philrob (18/10/20)

I understand your comments, but I'm not able to change anyone's personality or approach. It is what it is. I myself don't find it is personally abusive or insulting. If you consider it breaches one of the site rules, report the comment and point out which rule it breaches. We can then deal with it as appropriate. There's nothing to stop you to not read his comments, if that's your wish.


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## Miran (18/10/20)

philrob said:


> I know Mark personally. He is definitely not a bully, as should be evident from the many posts he has, giving detailed information to so many questions. OK, some of his replies might be seen to be abrupt to some, but even a basic search about brewing generally will give answers to basic definitions of the brewing process. Just accept the way he responds, and learn from his wisdom!
> 
> Here's another link which should be helpful. This is the online 1st edition of this book, and the print version is now up to version 3+, but the basic information is still relevant. Definitely worth a read, and should answer most of your questions.
> 
> Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew


Tnx for the link. We are learning from you guys!


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## Stoichiometrist (18/10/20)

philrob said:


> I understand your comments, but I'm not able to change anyone's personality or approach. It is what it is. I myself don't find it is personally abusive or insulting. If you consider it breaches one of the site rules, report the comment and point out which rule it breaches. We can then deal with it as appropriate. There's nothing to stop you to not read his comments, if that's your wish.


I will leave it up to Miran to make the call on that. I guess my point is that someone has expressed concerns, and the Moderator response was "Just accept the way he responds."
I work in a very hierarchal industry where bullying is typically subtle and pervasive. Most of the time people are not aware they're doing it. 
Happy to leave it there.


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## Miran (18/10/20)

Stoichiometrist said:


> I will leave it up to Miran to make the call on that. I guess my point is that someone has expressed concerns, and the Moderator response was "Just accept the way he responds."
> I work in a very hierarchal industry where bullying is typically subtle and pervasive. Most of the time people are not aware they're doing it.
> Happy to leave it there.


They worked hard and spend alot of time and money to learn and now sharing with us for free! I accept it and am going to suck it up  I remove my hat for these guys! Anyway I also need to learn to be patient,work harder and do not get frustrated too easily. Cheers to you all! I enjoy being part of these community!


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## hoppy2B (18/10/20)

Miran,

I recommend that you read 'How to Brew' by John Palmer. It is an online book well suited to beginners. It is free and easy to find. Just google 'How to Brew'.


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## MHB (18/10/20)

Its a two way street, go back and have another look at the thread.
I politely asked what he was trying to achieve and the response was to take a shot at me (yes there's some history there), if he thinks my reply was terse he's probably right, you get what you give.
Bit bemused by the notion that apparently in the hour between my saying pearled barley needs to be gelatanised and him deciding to shove some in the oven (certainly not my idea) and mash it with undesirable results it has in some way become my fault.
Like I said, it goes two ways, ask a question and I've shown over the last 15 years or so that I'm happy to engage in a conversation. There is an alternative, probably be far less fun for either of us, turn up be rude, post lots of crap, take shots at people... When you get a serve in return, I'm a bully.
Ok I'll leave it there (provisionally)

Just a note it took a couple of minutes to find Flaked Barley at the home brew shop in Darwin (if that's what you call town), they didn't have any Roast Barley but had Black Malt (Patent), looks like that and what you have would have been enough to make a pretty good stout. Mind you if I was an AG brewer in Darwin I would be looking for alternative suppliers, very limited range.
There are 3 microbreweries in Darwin, I know a couple of years ago, at least one of them was happy to help out home brewers with malt, might be worth a couple of phone calls.
Mark


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## Miran (18/10/20)

MHB said:


> Its a two way street, go back and have another look at the thread.
> I politely asked what he was trying to achieve and the response was to take a shot at me (yes there's some history there), if he thinks my reply was terse he's probably right, you get what you give.
> Bit bemused by the notion that apparently in the hour between my saying pearled barley needs to be gelatanised and him deciding to shove some in the oven (certainly not my idea) and mash it with undesirable results it has in some way become my fault.
> Like I said, it goes two ways, ask a question and I've shown over the last 15 years or so that I'm happy to engage in a conversation. There is an alternative, probably be far less fun for either of us, turn up be rude, post lots of crap, take shots at people... When you get a serve in return, I'm a bully.
> ...



Mark, I am not here to quarrel which seems you enjoy alot! I am going to ignore you from now on  My apology to rest of you guys!

Anyway, There are three home brewer suppliers in Darwin area, Two OZbrew ( by different owners) and a new one "Darwin home brewer supplies" which is closed on Saturday and Sundays which I am free. Long time before your comments I mentioned that I have bought both lactic acid and flaked barley from grain and grape.I checked two without outcome and nothing on third one websites! Furthermore there are more microbreweries than three now in Darwin but I have not been in them or asked them any question till now but tried IPA of one of them "One miles" which is great!


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## GrumpyPaul (18/10/20)

I reckon everyone's had their say on each other's response style, how they are perceived etc etc yadda yadda yadda.

Let's just leave it there and get back to talking about grains for stouts.


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## Miran (18/10/20)

GrumpyPaul said:


> I reckon everyone's had their say on each other's response style, how they are perceived etc etc yadda yadda yadda.
> 
> Let's just leave it there and get back to talking about grains for stouts.


i ll come back to you after reading the books and brewing some SMASH  Don't want to look like a dump any more. Cheers buddy.


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## Grmblz (19/10/20)

Sometimes when we speak in a foreign language, or listen to a person who's first language is not ours, things get lost in translation.
Doing it in person with all the visible cues is hard enough, written communication without those cues can be unbelievably difficult.
As Kadmium once stated "my sarcastic sense of humour seems to get lost in the written word" or words to that effect.

It's obvious that Mirans' first language is not English and as such perhaps we should "read between the lines" a little bit, and not take what he says so literally but try to decipher what it is he is trying to convey.
Factor in cultural differences, for example, deference to the elders, and the kindness/wisdom expected from them, and effective communication can become a real mine field.

I don't expect any English speaker that has never lived in a non English speaking community to fully understand just how hard it is to do, learning the language is just the beginning, the real challenge comes after that. And no, two weeks in Bali doesn't count 

I'm not having a go at anyone (well apart from Kad maybe, but he deserves it, the sarky bastard ) just an alternative view on what appears (to me) to be communication difficulties.
btw Miran, it's "Chump" not "dump" unless you want to go full Aussie in which case it's "dumb arse" 

Cheers G


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## kadmium (19/10/20)

Well said!


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## Miran (19/10/20)

Grmblz said:


> Sometimes when we speak in a foreign language, or listen to a person who's first language is not ours, things get lost in translation.
> Doing it in person with all the visible cues is hard enough, written communication without those cues can be unbelievably difficult.
> As Kadmium once stated "my sarcastic sense of humour seems to get lost in the written word" or words to that effect.
> 
> ...


Honestly after working for 15 years all around the world have too much difficulty to understand a lot of slangs you guys are using  I am sure of one thing.. NO Surrender, I am going to learn brewing and hopefully you guys will tolerate this new dumb arse


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## Miran (22/10/20)

kadmium said:


> It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.
> 
> Should be similar to:
> 3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
> ...


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## kadmium (22/10/20)

Hey hey! That's looking good mate!!


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## Miran (22/10/20)

Dry Irish Stout according to your procedure tomorrow


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## kadmium (23/10/20)

Miran said:


> Dry Irish Stout according to your procedure tomorrow


Great work. Make sure you write down the process, keep tabs on all the figures etc so you know what to change next time. 

Aim for a mash around 66c if you can, and try to get the Mash PH down to around 5.2 if possible.

Hope it turns out well, a nice dry Irish stout is hard to beat on a hot day!


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## kadmium (23/10/20)

Miran said:


> Dry Irish Stout according to your procedure tomorrow


And let us know how you go! Any questions just ask, happy to help out best I can.


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## Miran (1/11/20)

kadmium said:


> And let us know how you go! Any questions just ask, happy to help out best I can.



I did two all grain using BM plus 20 liters. One brew, 20 liters /week. Main aims now is to get consistent OG and PH and then playing with adjunct to get desired FG. I do not know what I have to do with all these wort and beers. Seems my colleagues and house mates are happier than me with all these strange taste beers.

First batch was Irish Stout. target OG 44, PH 5.2. None of them achieved  I used my own excel sheets for PPG, DP and IBU calculation following How to Brew book and this forum suggestions. Ambient temperature was about 35 deg C and seems this was the main issue for me and my hydrometer. I could not get consistent readings. Hydro reading were fluctuating between 30 and 40. On top of that PH was less than 5.
I googled and find some info about adjusting gravity using sugar. Was so reluctant to do it but no choice! I found hydrometer out of calibration too late.Hydrometer could n't read water gravity properly at 20 degree C. Final OG after adding sugar was about 46. checked later in two days using new meter and it was at 55.
I calibrated PH meter using some solution and checked it using zero coke (PH 3.2) it was working fine. Finally add some gypsum to raise the PH. was not sure how much so added tiny little bits till finally get to 5.17.

Going through water chemistry is a little bit difficult to me. Honestly I guess still too soon for me! But seems water management is damn vital. First brew I used 15 liters of water ( 3 liters/kg) and heater element and pump were screaming... not enough water in machine! I do not remeber how much more water I added. Just used tap water. sparging with 70 degree water (7 liters). Finally I had about 20liters wort ( after 60 minutes mash at 66) and 75 minute boil.

Two hops addition at 60 and 30 minutes. Both Fuggle targetting IBU 30. Alpha acid written on package so different from generic values on website. On package mentioned 8% and on Web 4.5. I used Web ones for calculations.

Second brew I googled alot for grain bills for milk stout. Finally went for my own crazy bills but all supported with calculations which now am not sure are right or not! 2.5 kg schooner (PPG 35, DP 150) , 0.5kg roasted barley (PPG 22, DP 0) 0.5kg crystal malt (PPG 29, DP 0). .25kg munich malt ( PPG 35, DP 40 added for maltiness and a little bit increase in DP), 0.75 flaked oat from Woolie (PPG28, DP 0). Mash: 20 minutes 40 deg C, 20 minute 45 deg C and 60 minutes 67 deg C followed by 75 minutes boil. Considered machine efficiency 0.85 (Which is not!). water used this time was initially 25 liters ( I guess this was the main issue... too much!) After mash gravity was 37 too far from my calculation 0.55. Again adjusted using sugar to final value of 47. Water PH was 6.66 and after finishing boil was 5.3. total wort after boil and adding 7 liters sparge was about 22 liters ( I planned for 20 liters but so tired and resented myself to continue the boil)

Sorry the story went too long and boring. I guess as Kadmium said I have to sit and check my machine effciency and make sure of its application in my calculations. Will do an SMASH next Saturday ( adding a little bit crystall, for its caramel color)

Next brew I need to check Initial water calculations and sparge..... Have to learn it.

Any input is highly appreciated my good brewmasters


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## kadmium (1/11/20)

Hey mate,

Without accurate volume measurements you will never work out your efficiency. The efficiency is a function of the volume, less wort will naturally be a higher gravity. So, you need to ensure that you are accurately measuring and calculating using pre boil, post boil gravity readings and volumes. Including mash volume, sparge volume, pre boil, post boil and fermenter volumes.

Use something like Brewfather to work out your efficiencies for you or your will forever be chasing your tail.


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## Miran (12/11/20)

kadmium said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> Without accurate volume measurements you will never work out your efficiency. The efficiency is a function of the volume, less wort will naturally be a higher gravity. So, you need to ensure that you are accurately measuring and calculating using pre boil, post boil gravity readings and volumes. Including mash volume, sparge volume, pre boil, post boil and fermenter volumes.
> 
> Use something like Brewfather to work out your efficiencies for you or your will forever be chasing your tail.


Question chief.. minimum water volume i can have in BM 20 plus is 23 to 24 liters to fill the mash pipe and cover heater elements. In the last week brew I did my calculation in reverse. I started to check how much water I need to have a 15 liters worth at the end of boil using 4KG grain ( 4 liters absorbtion by grain+ 5 liters evaporation+ 2liters turb and hops absorbtion) and I used about two liters water sparge. My efficiency was too low ( getting 44 after mash/sparge and 56 after finishing extended boil. Calculated one was 65) . The volume of brew during mash was 28 liters ( 4kg milled grain took 4 liters space).

Now my question is should I increase grain? for 24 liters strike water should I go for 8 kg grain? I know the final volume of wort will be less but thinking to have a decsent efficiency?!

Tnx Miran


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## kadmium (12/11/20)

Miran said:


> Question chief.. minimum water volume i can have in BM 20 plus is 23 to 24 liters to fill the mash pipe and cover heater elements. In the last week brew I did my calculation in reverse. I started to check how much water I need to have a 15 liters worth at the end of boil using 4KG grain ( 4 liters absorbtion by grain+ 5 liters evaporation+ 2liters turb and hops absorbtion) and I used about two liters water sparge. My efficiency was too low ( getting 44 after mash/sparge and 56 after finishing extended boil. Calculated one was 65) . The volume of brew during mash was 28 liters ( 4kg milled grain took 4 liters space).
> 
> Now my question is should I increase grain? for 24 liters strike water should I go for 8 kg grain? I know the final volume of wort will be less but thinking to have a decsent efficiency?!
> 
> Tnx Miran


I don't have a BM, I use a Guten. But generally if the efficiency is low then there are things you need to focus on to improve them. When I started on the Guten I was hitting around 55% brewhouse efficiency. I have now dialied it in a bit better and sit at around 65-70% with a 10L sparge.

For 15L post boil, you would need 1L / KG of grain, 5L boil off and 2L trub making it 11L lost liquid plus the 15L makes it 26L of water. Adding the grain would then be around 28L so that sounds right given the numbers you have used for water.

To work out your efficiency you need to know the gravity readings after you mashed but before you started boiling (I take this as I hit the boil) and then the gravity when you finish the boil. You also need to know your pre-boil volume (how much wort was in the BM before you started the boil) and how much was there after the boil plus how much went into the fermenter.

Something like Brewfather or Beersmith will help work out your efficiencies for you.

To really nail efficiency there are a few things you can focus on. The crush of the grain (if you mill yourself), how well the mash recirculates (does it flow properly or is it stuck), the pH of the wort and a few other bits and pieces.

I focused on nailing my water quantities and measuring them, plus adjusting the pH of my mash and I got my own mill and mill my own grain. I now see as I said about 65-70% eff on a single vessel which is lower than some, but it's acceptable for me on a single vessel system.

Once you dial in your efficiency and your process, a program like Brewfather will scale the recipe for you, to achieve the OG you want with the efficiencies of your system. I believe the BM is a quality unit and should produce good efficiencies, so perhaps maybe start a new thread asking anyone with a BM what efficiencies they are getting and some tips and tricks?


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## Grmblz (13/11/20)

Miran said:


> Question chief.. minimum water volume i can have in BM 20 plus is 23 to 24 liters to fill the mash pipe and cover heater elements. In the last week brew I did my calculation in reverse. I started to check how much water I need to have a 15 liters worth at the end of boil using 4KG grain ( 4 liters absorbtion by grain+ 5 liters evaporation+ 2liters turb and hops absorbtion) and I used about two liters water sparge. My efficiency was too low ( getting 44 after mash/sparge and 56 after finishing extended boil. Calculated one was 65) . The volume of brew during mash was 28 liters ( 4kg milled grain took 4 liters space).
> 
> Now my question is should I increase grain? for 24 liters strike water should I go for 8 kg grain? I know the final volume of wort will be less but thinking to have a decsent efficiency?!
> 
> Tnx Miran


Hi Miran, 
have a quick look at this Determining Sparge Water Volumes it's similar to your recipe of 15L 4kg grain, theirs is 23L 5kg grain, note: their sparge water volume is 19L yours was 2L, and their mash volume was 26L for 5kg of grain, yours was 28L for 4kg grain.
So a thicker mash, and a lot more sparging to rinse the sugars out of the grain.

To answer your question, above a certain amount (depends on individual systems/process) the more grain you use in a one vessel system the lower your efficiency will be, so no, using 8kg grain will not increase your efficiency, gravity yes, efficiency no.


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## philrob (13/11/20)

Technically, your efficiency does not go down with a large grain bill, it's just that you stop your extraction before rinsing all that is available from your grain bill. If you do a parti-gyle you should hopefully recover your efficiency.


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## Miran (15/11/20)

My good Brew masters,

3 boring questions for you. I have been through the HTB book and other websites and still not sure of below items:

-Actions (not question but happy to know what you think?) for me: Strike water: considering 3 to1 (water to grain) for having minumum 22 liters in machine I do not need to have 22 liters water. The total volume is grain+ water. Based on what I have seen till now 1kg milled grain ( I mill grain using two rollers malt king two times) occupy 1 liter space in mash so I can have 17 liters strike water + 5 kg grain to have final volume of 22 liters.I have to set machine to manual for temperature control during addition of grain. next brew I ll do this.

First question: - Temperatures: I am not sure what I am doing is right or not...Before getting to 66 degC for mashing I leave milled grains 20 minutes soaked at 40 and then further 20 minutes at 50 degC and then 60minutes at 66 degree (mashing temp). Reciepies I found on web just mentions 60 minutes mash but HTB book discuss some things about acid and protein rests.. which I can not understand very well. I want to make sure this extra 40 minutes at lower temperatures do not make any harm to mash?

Second question: Efficiency calculations: - My main traget is to have 15 to 17 liters wort inside frementer per week so I arrage my sparge to have final volume at this range ( I am thinking for second mash right after first using the used grain for first mash but will take damn long time with single vessel, seems need to buy another vessel , preference Guten?) I calculated three efficiencies, before adding sparge water, after adding sparge water and end of boil. I used my own excel sheets verified by examples in HTB book.
PPG at best case: 86
End of mash: 63% (17 liter volume)
After sparge : 85% (22 liters volume)
End of boil: 70% ( 17 liters into frementer)

Should I consider end of boil as my efficiency (70%)?

Last question: To increase my effciency I need to maintain water PH before mashing between 5 and 5.5? Is it true? I was checking the final PH till now but seems I need to make sure to have it in a limited range before starting mashing?

Tnx alot for all your advise!


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## kadmium (15/11/20)

Hey mate, there's a lot to unpack there. 

Firstly, I think the BM20 is to produce 20L of finished beer so I don't think you need a bigger unit if your goal is to finish with 15-17L which is easily doable. 

You should use an app like Brewfather which will scale recipes for you to end up with however many liters you want at the end. 

If you set your gap on the mill right, you shouldn't need to double mill. Double mill is good for BIAB but if you want to get good lautering (ability to sparge) and avoid a stuck mash a good single crush should be sufficient. Milling grain is a whole other beast you can go down, but if you can dial on a fairly good crush you shouldn't need to mess around with it too much. 

For the pH of the mash, you want it to be between 5.2-5.6 I target around 5.4 and you can use something like Lactic Acid to reduce the mash pH. 

Water chemistry is a steep learn, and it can get pretty complicated or you can look at trying to go simple and just start with getting pH down to the right area.

Most people consider the volume into the fermenter as the efficiency measurement


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## Miran (30/4/21)

@kadmium, Hi chief, I brewed three beers in China till now. Two IPA and one Irish dry Stout. For stout I followed your grain bills and outcome was ok. I have to go for Brew in Bag here in China as I am not sure how long I ll be here and do not want to buy any expensive equipment uphere for the time being. IPAs drinkable but honestly not good! seems I have some problems with grain bills. Now Looking for a decsent IPA grain bills (my preference is a west cost IPA type). I have maris otter, biscuit, caramel and viena malts. for hops citra, columbus and some galaxy. I got them by post from Australia. Looking forward for your advise


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## duncbrewer (2/5/21)

Miran said:


> @kadmium, Hi chief, I brewed three beers in China till now. Two IPA and one Irish dry Stout. For stout I followed your grain bills and outcome was ok. I have to go for Brew in Bag here in China as I am not sure how long I ll be here and do not want to buy any expensive equipment uphere for the time being. IPAs drinkable but honestly not good! seems I have some problems with grain bills. Now Looking for a decsent IPA grain bills (my preference is a west cost IPA type). I have maris otter, biscuit, caramel and viena malts. for hops citra, columbus and some galaxy. I got them by post from Australia. Looking forward for your advise



Great to be brewing up there. Well done. I would have thought you had access to all of the equipment at much less cost than we do, especially for postage and duty. Perhaps you could give us an idea of your recipe that you are using. 
The age old question about water also crops up ? whats it like where you brew? Chlorine ? Do you treat the water? 
This could make a big difference to your beer without much of an equipment change. 
Await your recipe and treatments.


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## An Ankoù (2/5/21)

kadmium said:


> It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.
> 
> Should be similar to:
> 3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
> ...


Haven't looked in on the forum for a little while so sorry if this has been answered already. This is a great recipe for a Guinness-like stout. The roasted barley should be enough to bring the pH down. Try to use softish or slightly bicarbonate water, but don't worry unless it's very hard. You don't need acid malt to correct the pH in this recipe, but use it to slightly sour the beer. Guinness, especially the bottled stuff, has a slightly sour taste from ageing part of the beer before mixing it back in.


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## Miran (3/5/21)

An Ankoù said:


> Haven't looked in on the forum for a little while so sorry if this has been answered already. This is a great recipe for a Guinness-like stout. The roasted barley should be enough to bring the pH down. Try to use softish or slightly bicarbonate water, but don't worry unless it's very hard. You don't need acid malt to correct the pH in this recipe, but use it to slightly sour the beer. Guinness, especially the bottled stuff, has a slightly sour taste from ageing part of the beer before mixing it back in.


Chief, My apology... I have used your suggested grain bill for my stouts and results are ok. My question was about west coast IPA grain bill? What do you suggest? If you prefer I can ask this in new forum? Tnx in advance


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## Miran (3/5/21)

duncbrewer said:


> Great to be brewing up there. Well done. I would have thought you had access to all of the equipment at much less cost than we do, especially for postage and duty. Perhaps you could give us an idea of your recipe that you are using.
> The age old question about water also crops up ? whats it like where you brew? Chlorine ? Do you treat the water?
> This could make a big difference to your beer without much of an equipment change.
> Await your recipe and treatments.


-Biggest issue up here in Qingdao, China is language! Complete another world. I am using VPN and google translator. No amazon here and buy everything online from Taobao ( chinese amazon) prices are less but quality of stuff Iget here is not as good as ones in Australia. I have to pay same or more if I want to buy what I was buying in Australia. Too much taxes on imported stuff too. Anyway no surrender 
- I use tap water but boil it the night before. I try to keep PH between 5.3 to 5.8. I am doing 12 liters batches so normally 15 to 16 liters of water before mash. I have not had any issue with brewed stouts. tastes/ priming ok. Temperture also here is fine 15 to 20 deg C.
- My problem now is to get one fixed grain bill for IPA ( west coast type). I understand hops are very important but before that I need to have a proper grain bills for IPA. I am trying now 90% maris otter + 5% carapils +5%Caramel ( medium color). For hops I use columbus for bittering 60 minutes boil ( target IBU 60 to 70) and mosaic end of boil. Dry hopping (mosaic) every three days (3 times). I amnot sure about grain bills? Any suggestion is highly appreciated


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## duncbrewer (4/5/21)

There are so many recipes out there for West Coast IPA why not do a clone recipe and live off someone elses experience to start with. Triple dry hopping seems a bit much. You can make a good west coast without any dry hopping! Brewdogs first IPA Punk IPA wasn't dry hopped for several years. 

More recipes and info here than you can shake a stick at.






BrewDog | DIY Dog


BrewDog | DIY Dog




www.brewdog.com





Download the recipe for every beer they have ever made, even tactical nuclear penguin ( look it up for a challenge ).


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## chookherder (4/5/21)

Miran said:


> -Biggest issue up here in Qingdao, China is language! Complete another world. I am using VPN and google translator. No amazon here and buy everything online from Taobao ( chinese amazon) prices are less but quality of stuff Iget here is not as good as ones in Australia. I have to pay same or more if I want to buy what I was buying in Australia. Too much taxes on imported stuff too. Anyway no surrender
> - I use tap water but boil it the night before. I try to keep PH between 5.3 to 5.8. I am doing 12 liters batches so normally 15 to 16 liters of water before mash. I have not had any issue with brewed stouts. tastes/ priming ok. Temperture also here is fine 15 to 20 deg C.
> - My problem now is to get one fixed grain bill for IPA ( west coast type). I understand hops are very important but before that I need to have a proper grain bills for IPA. I am trying now 90% maris otter + 5% carapils +5%Caramel ( medium color). For hops I use columbus for bittering 60 minutes boil ( target IBU 60 to 70) and mosaic end of boil. Dry hopping (mosaic) every three days (3 times). I amnot sure about grain bills? Any suggestion is highly appreciated



Hi Miran,

I have just completed a successful WestCoast IPA and have received very positive feedback. I did spend a few days researching the difference between West Coast vs East Coast IPA's and I can confirm there are a lot of opinions out there, and I'm not here to start argument

I liked this summary best:
West Coast IPAs are known for their piney, hoppy and resinous flavours, with the bitterness at the frontline, taking centre stage.
East Coast IPAs beers tend to be juicier, fruitier, smoother and sometimes with a citrusy kick. They strike a balance between malty sweetness and hoppy bitterness.

So using this as a guide I did not add any Crystal and I ran at a low Temp of 63c, I wanted a dry light body with little sweetness. For my dry hops I went with equal amounts of Amarillo (piney), Riwaka (lemony), Citra (yummy)!

So to answer your question I would use 100% Maris Otter for the grain bill.

Cheers big beers


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## kadmium (4/5/21)

chookherder said:


> and I'm not here to start argument



Thems fightin' words!

Jokes. I agree 100% MO is totally fine. I also think Carapils ain't an issue but I would ditch the 5% caramel for a West Coast. I don't think sweet caramels when I think WC IPA. That's just me. I think exactly as you described (Bitterness upfront, sharp and clean with a piney core to it)

Dunc is also on the money with water. While pre boiling can help, do you draw the clean cooled water off to brew with, or just add the water all in all?

To boil water for reducing bicarbonate you need to bring it to a boil for 10 minutes, and then either let the chalk precipitate and drop out or add a little chalk to move the process along quickly. Once the water clears, draw off the boiled water leaving behind the bottom crap. This will give you a base of 50-80ppm bicarbonate if your water was higher than that to start. 

It doesn't reduce the other minerals, so you may be SOOL (Shit Out Of Luck) with the other salts.

I would try and find distilled water in bottles (often sold for older style car batteries) and use that as an RO (clean) slate to add your own salts per style.


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## Miran (5/5/21)

Noted. Will find distilled water. For grain bills 100% marris otter. Will let you know the outcome. Tnx alot for advices  For yeast I ll use Safale US05 as before


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## duncbrewer (6/5/21)

@Miran
The other yeast to consider is kveik, very forgiving and clean ferment at cool temps and you can dry some residue at the end and repitch those dry flakes. Will save you some costs, I've used it in a sweet stout as well as lagers and an ale. No starters needed with it either and happy yeast is a happy brew. Do you use yeast nutrient ? worth trying to get some.


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