# No Chill Hop Additions



## Crusty

Being a first time no chiller, how are you guys adjusting your hop additions for no chill?
I found a chart on the net that suggested that 60min additions be added at 40min
30min add at 10min
20min add to cube
15 & 10min FWH
5min & 0min dry hop
Baloney or about right?


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## ekul

There's heaps of discussion on this, I bring everything forward 15mins. Or usually i just get recipes from nochillers so then i don't have to adjust.



With the bittering you don't really need to move it, the difference between 60 and 75min of boiling is tiny. I bring it forward to 45 sometimes if i want the bittering addition to add a littel flavour as well. The 45 addition gives the same bitterness as a 60min addition for me.





Crusty said:


> Being a first time no chiller, how are you guys adjusting your hop additions for no chill?
> I found a chart on the net that suggested that 60min additions add for no chill for 40min
> 30min add at 10min
> 20min add to cube
> 15 & 10min FWH
> 5min & 0min dry hop
> Baloney or about right?


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## mxd

Crusty said:


> Being a first time no chiller, how are you guys adjusting your hop additions for no chill?
> I found a chart on the net that suggested that 60min additions add for no chill for 40min
> 30min add at 10min
> 20min add to cube
> 15 & 10min FWH
> 5min & 0min dry hop
> Baloney or about right?



for my I don't relly adjust, I make the beer for my system then adjust.

If I get a recipe, I will not play with the 20+ minute hop additions.

but may thow the 10, 5 and 0 into a flame out then a big handful of dry.

it also depends on what I'm making the above is more relevant for APA/IPA, but for Boh Pil, Stout more malt driven, I generally try not to hop post 20 min and will do a first wort addition.


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## Crusty

Thanks guys.


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## iralosavic

I personally don't think the BM no chill adjuster is accurate at all. I'd say adding 10 minutes to rach addition in your software should be close enough. For additions under 10 minutes, play around with cube hopping.

I'm loving 40 minute bittering at the moment. I dial in 50 minutes for calculating bitterness and it seems close enough to me.


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## manticle

I make my own recipes for my system which is No chill and make no adjustments. When I start using my newly bought plate chiller I may start playing (in reverse).

Best way is to brew beer as is then adjust in future as your palate suggests.


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## Thirsty Boy

you DONT move the actual hop additions..... you just think of them as though they were in there longer.

So for instance if You add some 60 min hops.... calculate the bitterness they add as if you'd added them at 80mins. If you add hops at 0 mins, calculate their bitterness addition as if they had been added at 20min.

Just put the additions in at the same time anyone else would for a bittering, flavouring, aroma addittion - all you need to know is that you're likely to get more bitterness out of the hops than you would if you rapidly chilled your wort. To compensate you calculate all your hop additions as though they had been in there for 20mins longer, then reduce your pure bittering charge until the _calculated_ IBUs match the number of IBUs you actually want.

20mins is just one figure to use btw, a place to start - I suggest you'll need to brew a bit to work out if and how much you personally need to compensate. I would start with either no adjustment at all, or perhaps use 10mins and work your way up if you need to.

If by chance you choose to throw some hops directly into your no-chill cube.... calculate their bitterness addition as if they'd been in the boil for 20-30mins. That I am much more sure of.


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## stux

I've settled on 10 mins. So in brewing software I would enter my 60, 20 and 5 minute additions as 70, 30 and 15

But the hops still go in as 60,20 and 5

I was finding 20 minutes reduced my overall bitterness far too much and QldKev had a compelling argument on his website. Basically chillers have a 10 minute lag and no chillers have a 20 minute lag, but the net difference is only 10 minutes


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## lukasfab

Stux said:


> I've settled on 10 mins. So in brewing software I would enter my 60, 20 and 5 minute additions as 70, 30 and 15
> 
> But the hops still go in as 60,20 and 5
> 
> I was finding 20 minutes reduced my overall bitterness far too much and QldKev had a compelling argument on his website. Basically chillers have a 10 minute lag and no chillers have a 20 minute lag, but the net difference is only 10 minutes




just to make it clear for me, 
you put your beer in to the software as normal, your 60min hop shows ibu of say 25, you edit your time to 70min and the ibu goes up to

27 lets say, you then adjust the hop amount to read 25?


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## JDW81

lukasfab said:


> just to make it clear for me,
> you put your beer in to the software as normal, your 60min hop shows ibu of say 25, you edit your time to 70min and the ibu goes up to
> 
> 27 lets say, you then adjust the hop amount to read 25?



That's how I work it. Always comes up well across all styles I've brewed.


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## ekul

lukasfab said:


> just to make it clear for me,
> you put your beer in to the software as normal, your 60min hop shows ibu of say 25, you edit your time to 70min and the ibu goes up to
> 
> 27 lets say, you then adjust the hop amount to read 25?




if you use brewmate (free) it has a checkbox that automatically gives 15 min to every addition. So you just enter the recipe normally and then click the boc and it will tell you how bitter each addition will be.

After you've been brewing a while you'll know how bitter your recipes will come out and automatically adjust. This is why its a good idea to keep notes on recipes and what you did on brewday.


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## stux

lukasfab said:


> just to make it clear for me,
> you put your beer in to the software as normal, your 60min hop shows ibu of say 25, you edit your time to 70min and the ibu goes up to
> 
> 27 lets say, you then adjust the hop amount to read 25?



Pretty much.

I adjust the bittering addition to bring the total IBUs back down to where I want it. 

Late hop additons I tend to do on a g/L basis rather than an IBU basis, but by entering all the additions offset by 10 minutes I *think* the IBUs are relatively accurate. Then I adjust the bittering addition to get the total IBU target I want.

Doing it this way I end up with the aroma/flavour profile I want, and the overall bitterness seems to correlate with what I expect the IBUs to imply.


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## Verbyla

Best thing about this forum is that it continually proves you don't know everything no matter how much reading and preparation you do. 

I did my first AG Black Beer Saturday and completely forgot to factor "No Chill" into my hops schedule  

Should only contribute another 4 IBU so not the end of the world.

Is it better to throw in the 0-5 minute hop additions in with the cooling wort or dry hop them after pitching the yeasties???


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## Barley Belly

Bittering @ 40mins
Flavour @ 5mins
Aroma @ 15mins after flameout/whirlpool and 5mins before drain to cube

Does the job here :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy

Barley Belly said:


> Bittering @ 40mins
> Flavour @ 5mins
> Aroma @ 15mins after flameout/whirlpool and 5mins before drain to cube
> 
> Does the job here :icon_cheers:



Perfect - just goes to show that there is no "One True Answer" - only the answer that is true in your brewery.

No chill is simply "newer" than other ways of handling wort - so far no-one has done the required work to come up with a well supported bitterness calculation for it, so we're all guessing a bit. Mind you, when you look at the difference between the three or four major calculation schemes used when the wort is rapidly chilled, and the obvious inadequacies that they have, the guesses you see around the place for no-chill hopping dont seem so wild at all.


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## sponge

And as others have said, you will get different solutions from different breweries and brewers. It's all down to how each individual changes the calculations for their tastes and their procedures.

I normally FWH my bittering addition, which doesnt affect the no chill bittering too much as there's not much difference in bitterness levels above 60min (although I do throw another 20min on my calculations just to make sure), then add 20mins on to the other additions, and anything <20min I throw into the cube. 

Once again, different breweries/brewers will change their schedule according to how they brew.

Experiment and see what works for you.


Sponge


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## Mud Gecko

Does somebody have an adjusted receipe for Dr Smurtos GA for no-chill? If I put the standard receipe into BrewMate it comes up with 51 IBU


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## BobtheBrewer

Mud Gecko said:


> Does somebody have an adjusted receipe for Dr Smurtos GA for no-chill? If I put the standard receipe into BrewMate it comes up with 51 IBU





Did you tick the "no chill" box on the left hand side?


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## Camo1234

Mud Gecko said:


> Does somebody have an adjusted receipe for Dr Smurtos GA for no-chill? If I put the standard receipe into BrewMate it comes up with 51 IBU




Smurto has said that he has around a 20min lag between flameout and chill so he suggests just leaving the recipe as is.. That's what I have done and have been happy with the results and will just play around with the timings / amounts etc till I get it right for my brewery / taste buds :icon_cheers: 

Camo


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## drsmurto

Mud Gecko said:


> Does somebody have an adjusted receipe for Dr Smurtos GA for no-chill? If I put the standard receipe into BrewMate it comes up with 51 IBU



My recipes do not need adjusting. 

I always wait 10-20 minutes after flameout during which time the wort is cooling down. So the recipe already takes this into account. I'm yet to be convinced that this is different to what no chillers do assuming you whirlpool after flameout and allow the break to settle. I then run it through a plate chiller which can take 5-10 mins depending on the chilling water temperature.

I read a paper recently which talked about the rate of alpha acid isomerisation as a function of temperature. From memory it was halved with every drop of 10C but i don't think it took into account the time it takes for alpha acids to dissolve (they are poorly soluble) as I suspect they added pure AAs already in solution. I can't put my fingers on it at the moment but that would be useful if we also had a rate of cooling of wort after flameout. Would help demystify this somewhat.

But..... i think the best way to find out for yourself is to brew the same recipe twice. First with no adjustments to the recipe and the second with whatever no cgill adjustment you deem appropriate.

My golden ale recipe is designed using tinseth in beersmith as are all my recipes.


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## Mud Gecko

Thanks for the replies. Yeah I have the no-chill box checked, if the desinger of the receipe says leave it, then thats what I'll do  Looking forward to this brew :beerbang:


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## Barley Belly

Mud Gecko said:


> if the desinger of the receipe says leave it, then thats what I'll do



Good luck :icon_cheers:


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## Crusty

DrSmurto said:


> My recipes do not need adjusting.
> 
> I always wait 10-20 minutes after flameout during which time the wort is cooling down. So the recipe already takes this into account. I'm yet to be convinced that this is different to what no chillers do assuming you whirlpool after flameout and allow the break to settle. I then run it through a plate chiller which can take 5-10 mins depending on the chilling water temperature.
> 
> I read a paper recently which talked about the rate of alpha acid isomerisation as a function of temperature. From memory it was halved with every drop of 10C but i don't think it took into account the time it takes for alpha acids to dissolve (they are poorly soluble) as I suspect they added pure AAs already in solution. I can't put my fingers on it at the moment but that would be useful if we also had a rate of cooling of wort after flameout. Would help demystify this somewhat.
> 
> But..... i think the best way to find out for yourself is to brew the same recipe twice. First with no adjustments to the recipe and the second with whatever no cgill adjustment you deem appropriate.
> 
> My golden ale recipe is designed using tinseth in beersmith as are all my recipes.



I am brewing the exact APA I did a few weeks back, but this time I am not going to adjust my hop additions or quantities for no chill. I have been doing quite a bit of research of late & it seems you can't believe everything you read in good old Google land. I myself was led to believe that hop adjustments need to be made if you are no chilling but this may not be correct. The hops are in contact with slowly cooling wort for a longer period of time but I use a hop sock so any hops that make it to the cube will probably be insignificant to add extra IBU whilst the wort is cooling, it may be a different story if the hops are allowed to enter the cube, I'm not 100% sure. Everyone seems to have an opinion on this & I am going to confirm it this Sunday, so we'll see.


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## hsb

I gave up adjusting anything. I just do additions as normal, no chill and see what I get. If it isn't right, I just amend the additions in the recipe. I found it too confusing and more importantly inconsistent to 'adjust' for No Chill.

With flameout hops, I kill the flame, wait a moment, throw them all in, then whirlpool and cube pretty much immediately.

I think being consistent is the most important thing, then you can bump the flameout or do a dry hop if you feel it lacks aroma punch etc..

Luckily I'm not a hop monster (yet) so not a problem if the aroma doesn't make my hair stand on end.


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## Crusty

hsb said:


> I gave up adjusting anything. I just do additions as normal, no chill and see what I get. If it isn't right, I just amend the additions in the recipe. I found it too confusing and more importantly inconsistent to 'adjust' for No Chill.
> 
> With flameout hops, I kill the flame, wait a moment, throw them all in, then whirlpool and cube pretty much immediately.
> 
> I think being consistent is the most important thing, then you can bump the flameout or do a dry hop if you feel it lacks aroma punch etc..
> 
> Luckily I'm not a hop monster (yet) so not a problem if the aroma doesn't make my hair stand on end.



I BIAB in an electric urn & my first one a couple of weeks back, I adjusted for no chill. After the boil, I let it sit for about 30mins & transferred to the cube. I got a bit of break material into the cube which concerned me a bit at first. I cracked open one of my beers last night & although it's only a week old, it's quite a good beer. It has a nice hop aroma to it & a really nice citrus note from the cascade, it's a really good beer.


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## mje1980

hsb said:


> I gave up adjusting anything. I just do additions as normal, no chill and see what I get. If it isn't right, I just amend the additions in the recipe. I found it too confusing and more importantly inconsistent to 'adjust' for No Chill.
> 
> With flameout hops, I kill the flame, wait a moment, throw them all in, then whirlpool and cube pretty much immediately.
> 
> I think being consistent is the most important thing, then you can bump the flameout or do a dry hop if you feel it lacks aroma punch etc..
> 
> Luckily I'm not a hop monster (yet) so not a problem if the aroma doesn't make my hair stand on end.




This was my thinking when i started doing it. I've found for me it works fine. My beers are more "hoppy" than bitter, so i think i have a little wiggle room. The only time i've had problems was when i used a shitload of 14.3% Galaxy hops, was super bitter. Other than that, i've had no problems, even with doing 10 minute no chilled AIPA's, the beers have been great. 

For aroma, i prefer dry hopping than any other method. 

The combinations of different people's systems, the hops used, and people's different tastes make these kind of things a "suck it and see" thing.


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## seemax

There's also the option to do a post chill mini boil.

No late or flame out hops. NC as per normal. Chill NC cube to say 4C. Draw off 4L, bring up to boil and add your late additions (ie 15,10,0 or whatever) as per normal. Strain the boiled wort into your fermentor, add the remaining chilled wort... splish splosh to aerate...make sure it's at your desired pitching temp and pitch away.

This way you don't have to worry about NC adjustment and you get the benefits of flavour/aroma hops. Of course it does involve more work... but worth a try.


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## Bada Bing Brewery

When I stared BIAB (3V now with Hernit) I went as per hops schedules and have always no chilled. Got some seriously bitter beers in the beginning. Now use Brewmate no chill button and have had great beers ever since..........
Cheers
BBB


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## sponge

Ive been adding 15min onto my hop additions for NC, and have been getting better results that without adjusting.

Once again, this is for my setup only and YMMV. 

As can be seen in previous posts, brewers have not adjusted their additions and produced delicious beers.

Best way is to do a few different brews of the same beer with different adjustments. 

You'll know what works for your system after a few trials



Sponge


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## Thirsty Boy

Crusty said:


> I am brewing the exact APA I did a few weeks back, but this time I am not going to adjust my hop additions or quantities for no chill. I have been doing quite a bit of research of late & it seems you can't believe everything you read in good old Google land. I myself was led to believe that hop adjustments need to be made if you are no chilling but this may not be correct. The hops are in contact with slowly cooling wort for a longer period of time but I use a hop sock so any hops that make it to the cube will probably be insignificant to add extra IBU whilst the wort is cooling, it may be a different story if the hops are allowed to enter the cube, I'm not 100% sure. Everyone seems to have an opinion on this & I am going to confirm it this Sunday, so we'll see.



but you see - the green stuff that you leave behind, has nothing to do with it, people who think it does, misunderstand how hops work.

Hops contain alpha acids, which are insoluble in cold wort or beer, but soluble in hot wort. Boiling hops dissolves the alpha acids and then causes a chemical change which turns them into compounds which are actually soluble in cold wort or beer, leaving them to do the job of bittering your brew.

Do you see how that makes the presence or lack of hop material in your cube irrelevant? The alpha acids have dissolved, they are now in the liquid, not the solid part of your brew. Leaving the solids behind is going to make little difference.

Whether or not you find it necessary to adjust your recipes is going to be entirely up to how you like the way your beers turn out, and will certainly depend on what sort of beer you are brewing - but whether or not you use a hopsock, is going to make little to no difference to that. There is just no reason that it would.

There isn't any real need to worry about opinion - worry about how and why things actually work, then apply a little logic and a lot more experience to that knowledge - everything else just falls into place.


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## Nick JD

Thirsty Boy said:


> but you see - the green stuff that you leave behind, has nothing to do with it, people who think it does, misunderstand how hops work.
> 
> Hops contain alpha acids, which are insoluble in cold wort or beer, but soluble in hot wort. Boiling hops dissolves the alpha acids and then causes a chemical change which turns them into compounds which are actually soluble in cold wort or beer, leaving them to do the job of bittering your brew.
> 
> Do you see how that makes the presence or lack of hop material in your cube irrelevant? The alpha acids have dissolved, they are now in the liquid, not the solid part of your brew. Leaving the solids behind is going to make little difference.
> 
> Whether or not you find it necessary to adjust your recipes is going to be entirely up to how you like the way your beers turn out, and will certainly depend on what sort of beer you are brewing - but whether or not you use a hopsock, is going to make little to no difference to that. There is just no reason that it would.
> 
> There isn't any real need to worry about opinion - worry about how and why things actually work, then apply a little logic and a lot more experience to that knowledge - everything else just falls into place.



Question: how long does it take for all the available bittering compounds to enter solution from a whole hop flower? 30 seconds? 15 minutes? 90 minutes?


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## Helles

Thirsty Boy said:


> but you see - the green stuff that you leave behind, has nothing to do with it, people who think it does, misunderstand how hops work.
> 
> Hops contain alpha acids, which are insoluble in cold wort or beer, but soluble in hot wort. Boiling hops dissolves the alpha acids and then causes a chemical change which turns them into compounds which are actually soluble in cold wort or beer, leaving them to do the job of bittering your brew.
> 
> Do you see how that makes the presence or lack of hop material in your cube irrelevant? The alpha acids have dissolved, they are now in the liquid, not the solid part of your brew. Leaving the solids behind is going to make little difference.
> 
> Whether or not you find it necessary to adjust your recipes is going to be entirely up to how you like the way your beers turn out, and will certainly depend on what sort of beer you are brewing - but whether or not you use a hopsock, is going to make little to no difference to that. There is just no reason that it would.
> 
> There isn't any real need to worry about opinion - worry about how and why things actually work, then apply a little logic and a lot more experience to that knowledge - everything else just falls into place.




I was under the impression that the hop oils needed to be boiled to extract bitterness
The only thing you could lose is flavour and aroma with NC
I Chill would not know from experience just what i go by


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## Thirsty Boy

Nick JD said:


> Question: how long does it take for all the available bittering compounds to enter solution from a whole hop flower? 30 seconds? 15 minutes? 90 minutes?



absolutely - which is why this stuff is so definitely in the "you're just going to have to work it out for yourself" category.

Hop flowers work very differently to pellets, even in the boil and very much so in no chill. You get less bittering potential from flowers than pellets in a boil, primarily because of what you are talking about, the time taken for the physical action of the boil to access and release the resins. One of the reasons for a vigarous boil. But if you use pellets, they break up more or less instantly and the resins are released and dissolved nearly that quickly. in no chill, and also in whirlpool and even late additions, the flowers aren't beaten up enough to release all the resins, so plenty of it never dissolves and thus never isomerises.

The basics remain - a no chilled beer that has hops added later than very early in the boil, will be more bitter than a beer hopped in the same way, but which has been rapidly cooled.

How much more bitter? is the question - one which really needs to be answered after you've done a bunch of brews and worked it out for yourself. The about 20mins figure, which originates from me in the first place so I feel the need to clarify it, is just a reasonably well supported place to start your tweaking, if and when you do notice differences for which you want to compensate.


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## Crusty

Well, I didn't risk it or take the plunge. I done my second BIAB on Saturday night & it was awesome. Volumes were spot on & I achieved an 85% efficiency & am very happy with that. Due to my recipes being worked out on 70% efficiency, I ended up with 23lt @1.056 instead of 23lt @1.046.
I decided to leave the no chill tick box as is in BrewMate & I think after all the comments & feedback, you probably will get a more bitter beer if no chilling so I went with the recipe. Cube sample tastes identical to my last APA, very nice.


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## Spiesy

Crusty said:


> Well, I didn't risk it or take the plunge. I done my second BIAB on Saturday night & it was awesome. Volumes were spot on & I achieved an 85% efficiency & am very happy with that. Due to my recipes being worked out on 70% efficiency, I ended up with 23lt @1.056 instead of 23lt @1.046.
> I decided to leave the no chill tick box as is in BrewMate & I think after all the comments & feedback, you probably will get a more bitter beer if no chilling so I went with the recipe. Cube sample tastes identical to my last APA, very nice.


85% in BIAB? Far out... that's bloody good efficiency!

Has anyone every thrown hops into a cube, in a hop bag - for a late hop addition? Surely that would be preferable for a late hop (aroma) addition in the world of No Chill?


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## seemax

Tried cube hopping on few occasions. Didn't find it added much aroma so stopped bothering.

The mini boil after chilling is the best of both worlds IMO (convenience of NC and aroma/flavour of late/flame out hops).


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## seemax

85% at pre boil isn't hard to believe with a fine crush and sparge of some sort.


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## Crusty

Spiesy said:


> 85% in BIAB? Far out... that's bloody good efficiency!
> 
> Has anyone every thrown hops into a cube, in a hop bag - for a late hop addition? Surely that would be preferable for a late hop (aroma) addition in the world of No Chill?



Mid to high 80's efficiency is quite common with BIAB. 
BribieG hit 86% efficiency on his last brew.
You don't need to recirculate to achieve better efficiency. Full volume mash for 90mins followed by a 78deg mash out for 0mins will get you there. My crush isn't super fine. I used my credit card as the gap for my mill as I couldn't find the bloody feeler gauge. I'm pretty happy with that result.


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## Crusty

seemax said:


> 85% at pre boil isn't hard to believe with a fine crush and sparge of some sort.



True.
I measured into fermenter (brewhouse efficiency) & got 85% post boil.


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## [email protected]

Sort of relevant i guess...but i have become a fan of chilling in the cube or slow chill what ever you want to call it for beers with late hops.

A few minutes after FO add hops, stir for 5 mins, let sit for 10min, drain to jerry, squeeze all air out and seal, let sit for 5min on each side, chuck in open concrete water tank with rope. 
This time of year its too cold to pitch yeast after 1/2 hour in there.
I usually pitch the next day but left the last brew for 4 days with no ill effects. Of course others MMV


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## Thefatdoghead

Beer4U said:


> Sort of relevant i guess...but i have become a fan of chilling in the cube or slow chill what ever you want to call it for beers with late hops.
> 
> A few minutes after FO add hops, stir for 5 mins, let sit for 10min, drain to jerry, squeeze all air out and seal, let sit for 5min on each side, chuck in open concrete water tank with rope.
> This time of year its too cold to pitch yeast after 1/2 hour in there.
> I usually pitch the next day but left the last brew for 4 days with no ill effects. Of course others MMV


I put em in the pool after 15 minutes in the cube. No changes to hop additions and my beers are tasting pretty much the same maybe a little more bitter. I did a little experiment and left the cubes for 5 weeks after cooling them in the pool. All fermented now and no worries with infection.


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