# IBU calculation from whirlpool



## lukasfab (8/1/17)

planning to added about 150g at flame for a hop stand of about 20min before starting to chill
how are you guys calculating the IBU for this addition? surely its not the same as a 20min boil addition

cheers


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## indica86 (8/1/17)

Using Beersmith and Citra I get 127 IBU from a 20 minute boil and 61 IBU from a 20 minute whirlpool.


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## husky (8/1/17)

I have beersmith set to 40% utilisation for whirlpool additions.
I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.


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## Dan Pratt (8/1/17)

I've got beersmith set at 25% utilization and whirlpool at 95c for on average 15mins and the ibu I get is similar to the number BS suggest my beer is.


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## TwoCrows (8/1/17)

Beer smith boil and whirlpool maths are out of wack.

If you add to boiling wort for 20 mins / add to whirlpool at boiling for 20 mins, Whats the difference??

I believe that Brad at Beersmith is trying to rectify the issue, but the mathematical equations need tweeking.

I heard this as a public statement on a you tube video....


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## lukasfab (8/1/17)

Thank guys! 

Indica86, at least that's something I can work with. I use brewers friend , don't think you can change utilisation???


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## Droopy Brew (8/1/17)

HI Lucas,

You can in brewers friend. When you enter the hop addition to the recipe use the drop down list to select whirlpool. It will then give you the option to add utilisation and wort temp.
Im surprised to see how high some guys here set it. I usually work with 5-6% and find it is on the money.


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## BKBrews (8/1/17)

TwoCrows said:


> Beer smith boil and whirlpool maths are out of wack.
> 
> If you add to boiling wort for 20 mins / add to whirlpool at boiling for 20 mins, Whats the difference??
> 
> ...


You have to set your whirlpool timing as well though? If your settings say that you whirlpool for 10min above 85 degrees but then your recipe is a 30min steep/whirlpool, then it won't work.

I have mine set to 30min whirlpool above 85 degrees and I generally do a 30min steep/whirlpool addition that I dump in straight after flameout. My gf generally takes 30min to go from boiling to 85, so this works for me. After half an hour I just start chilling.


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## TidalPete (8/1/17)

husky said:


> husky, on 08 Jan 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:
> 
> I have beersmith set to 40% utilisation for whirlpool additions.
> I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.


Pretty similar to my process but as I use a ss immersion chiller, whirlpool (recirculation via whirlpool tool) commences 20 minutes before flameout to sterilise.
Given up on adding hops at 15, 10, 5 or whatever & just add the lot to whirlpool. Works just fine.

Flameout
Chill to 82
Water off, pump off, whirlpool hops added
Cover kettle & sit for 45 minutes. Temp is usually 71\72 by then
Water back on, pump back on, chill down to whatever


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## TidalPete (8/1/17)

TidalPete said:


> TidalPete, on 08 Jan 2017 - 1:42 PM, said:
> 
> Pretty similar to my process but as I use a ss immersion chiller, whirlpool (recirculation via whirlpool tool) commences 20 minutes before flameout to sterilise.
> Given up on adding hops at 15, 10, 5 or whatever & just add the lot to whirlpool. Works just fine.
> ...


Too late to edit but should have attempted to address the OP's IBU question in my reply above.

Probably goes without saying but from 82 deg c downwards (theoretically anyway) there should be minimal IBU's added to the wort.
Definitely not a problem if you're doing AIPA's or similar.


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## BKBrews (8/1/17)

TidalPete said:


> Too late to edit but should have attempted to address the OP's IBU question in my reply above.
> 
> Probably goes without saying but from 82 deg c downwards (theoretically anyway) there should be minimal IBU's added to the wort.
> Definitely not a problem if you're doing AIPA's or similar.


Mmm that's probably a better way of doing it than I do. I normally chill to 72 and hold it there, but maybe letting it free fall from around 80 to a minimum of 72 for a desired length of time is the way to go...


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## Danscraftbeer (8/1/17)

Your now talking hop stands. I do them too. To add this into your software for calculations its more to take notes of it in the records. It adds maybe 2 to 3 IBU's. YMMV

I have just done a no chill with all hops added at flame out whirlpool only. With Beersmith 2, last updated maybe 6 months ago.
I trust its default settings with the whirlpool to be as close as I can judge, and I do my best to pay attention to detail (taste) and tweak the software if its needed. Improved and consistent with my methods now the software seems good on default settings.
It still estimates FG too high on Pales but I think that just comes down to my fault with mash temps.

Hop stand additions (between 70 to 80c) I add to the recipe but added as a 1 minute whirl addition for the calculations. Don't ask for the theory on that. Just record it in the notes.
1 minute for 20 minutes.
2 minutes for 40 minutes etc.
$0.02


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## BKBrews (9/1/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Your now talking hop stands. I do them too. To add this into your software for calculations its more to take notes of it in the records. It adds maybe 2 to 3 IBU's. YMMV
> 
> I have just done a no chill with all hops added at flame out whirlpool only. With Beersmith 2, last updated maybe 6 months ago.
> I trust its default settings with the whirlpool to be as close as I can judge, and I do my best to pay attention to detail (taste) and tweak the software if its needed. Improved and consistent with my methods now the software seems good on default settings.
> ...


I'm the same, except I add all of my hopstand additions as 1min, regardless of the length. Although I've only ever done 45 or 1hr stands.

In regards to it estimating the FG incorrectly, are you sure you just don't have your brewhouse efficiency set too high for your system?


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## damoninja (9/1/17)

husky said:


> I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.


This.

But more or less for me hops go in, chiller goes on, I slowly chill for a few mins as it drops to 80


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

thanks for replies guys, sorry for late response

i actually dont have whirlpool option in brewers friend?
only dry, aroma, boil, first wort and mash

cant find/see drop box to adjust utilization anywhere ?


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

this is what i have so far, the red x is only there to use it up as i thought it was a crystal when i got it


*batch 45 AIPA* (American IPA)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.056 (°P): 13.8
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Alcohol (ABV): 5.94 %
Colour (SRM): 6.9 (EBC): 13.5
Bitterness (IBU): 59.9 (Tinseth)

83.33% United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale
6.95% German - Red X Bestmalz
5.56% German - Carapils
4.17% German - Wheat Malt

0.3 g/L Magnum (12.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Mosiac (11.6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
4.5 g/L Simcoe (12.7% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
6.8 g/L Simcoe (12.7% Alpha) @ 2 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 20°C with Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05


Recipe Generated with *Brewer's Friend*


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

OK

I've had to make some assumptions here because there isn't enough information.

In post #1 you mention that the big add is at flameout then has a 20 minute stand before chilling. I have assumed that big add is the last "2 minute" add above. I have further assumed that the hop stand has a final temperature of 80 oC and that you are chilling in place and this takes 20 minutes to reach 50 oC.

With those assumptions, using the newest version of my calculator* I get IBU contributions of 9.1, 10.1, 25.6 and 43.8 for each of these adds, for a total of 88.5.

The calculation is very sensitive to whirlpool temperature: if I put in a final temp of 85 oC it goes up to 101 IBU, mostly from the last add. Accordingly, to make this prediction reasonable I need to know exact temperatures and cooling times.

I'm also suspicious of any number above about 80 as AAs aren't very soluble.



* there's an error in one of the cells of the previous ones which happens to affect whirlpool temperature calculations. I've fixed it but I'll have to look to find where it came from before posting the new version.


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## husky (12/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> OK
> 
> I've had to make some assumptions here because there isn't enough information.
> 
> ...


How are you accounting for the lower utilisation as the temp drops? Every micro brewer I have spoken to gives me a different answer and in most cases they don't even calculate IBU since they are brewing more often and can make changes from batch to batch and gauge the effect practically.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

See previous thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91684-improving-precision-in-ibu-calculations

note that as per above post, the version of the calculator uploaded there has an error in cell E8 in the "behind the scenes" page.

If you substitute

=(E7*'Display '!C2*'Behind the scenes'!C6+'Display '!C6*('Display '!E6+273.15))/'Behind the scenes'!C8

into that cell it will fix that error.


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## Droopy Brew (12/1/17)

Lucas, Im not sure why you dont have whirlpool options. Mine does. Are you a paid up member or using the free version? that may be a factor.

Also, some of the above utilisations are interesting. At 60 minute boil BF has utilisation @29%, 10 minute boil @10.5% and 5minute boil @6%.

Husky, I think your 40% utilisation at whirlpool may need some revision mate. Im not sure you would get 40% from a 120 minute boil? 

Happy to be corrected with some science but. Lyrebird Im looking at you.


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## damoninja (12/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> See previous thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91684-improving-precision-in-ibu-calculations


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> Husky, I think your 40% utilisation at whirlpool may need some revision mate. Im not sure you would get 40% from a 120 minute boil?
> 
> Happy to be corrected with some science but. Lyrebird Im looking at you.


Can't see where anybody said the WP utilisation rate was 40%. My calc is about 5%.


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## Droopy Brew (12/1/17)

husky said:


> I have beersmith set to 40% utilisation for whirlpool additions.
> I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.


Referring to this ^

Pratty also mentioned he sets at WPU @ 25% which is about a 60 minute addition equivilant. 

I usually set at 5%.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

OK thnks I missed that.

AFAIK Beersmith has the whirlpool utilisation as a percentage of boil utilisation, so if you were getting 30% in a 1 hour boil a factor of 40% would give a net utilisation of 4% for 20 minutes whirlpool (0.3 x 0.4 x 20/60)


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## husky (12/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> OK thnks I missed that.
> 
> AFAIK Beersmith has the whirlpool utilisation as a percentage of boil utilisation, so if you were getting 30% in a 1 hour boil a factor of 40% would give a net utilisation of 4% for 20 minutes whirlpool (0.3 x 0.4 x 20/60)


Yes, that is my understanding. After sampling my latest batch however I will be reducing this utilisation factor for next time since it has come out less bitter than I was expecting for the 600g of hops I used in my 21L batch.
My 40% is an attempt to capture my whole process as I let it WP(no cooling) for 5 mins before dropping temp to 80 for 2 mins. All trial - error - adjust. 
40% is just the value Beersmith allows us to adjust(%of boil), not the actual utilisation.


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## husky (12/1/17)

% of equivalent boiled hops^^^


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## Droopy Brew (12/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> OK thnks I missed that.
> 
> AFAIK Beersmith has the whirlpool utilisation as a percentage of boil utilisation, so if you were getting 30% in a 1 hour boil a factor of 40% would give a net utilisation of 4% for 20 minutes whirlpool (0.3 x 0.4 x 20/60)


Ok that makes a lot more sense!

% of boil utilisation rather than % of total aa utilisation- gotcha.


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

well ive never done this before and could not put any input to what you guys are talking as its over my head LOL

the 2min is my whirlpool. i was thinking at flame out i would these hops , start chilling down to 80 and stand for 20min and then continue chilling.

am i completely wrong?

cheers guys.

oh and yes im just on the free version atm


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

OK that's interesting; ignore the numbers I posted above. I'm going to have to rebuild the calculator to allow it to figure in hop stands. Shouldn't be too hard.

To help with this: how long does it take between flameout and reaching 80 oC? Once you start chilling again, how long does it take to reach 50 oC?


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## husky (12/1/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> OK that's interesting; ignore the numbers I posted above. I'm going to have to rebuild the calculator to allow it to figure in hop stands. Shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> To help with this: how long does it take between flameout and reaching 80 oC? Once you start chilling again, how long does it take to reach 50 oC?


Everyone's system is likely to be different, can time taken be built into the calculator as a variable?
My system will chill to 80degC in approx. 3 mins hold for hop stand and then take 15 mins to chill to 50degC


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

not sure as i never check temp at this stage, will run with this i think and record


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

just paid for BF and the recipe designer still the same, no whirlpool??


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

oh ok i got it, you need to use the online builder. thats bit gay


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/1/17)

husky said:


> Everyone's system is likely to be different, can time taken be built into the calculator as a variable?
> My system will chill to 80degC in approx. 3 mins hold for hop stand and then take 15 mins to chill to 50degC


OK, my calculator now allows all those variables to be input. I assumed you'll lose a couple of degrees during the hop stand so that's in there as well.

Using them, I now get contributions of 8.8, 7.7, 28.8 and 21.3 IBU for a total of 66.7.

I will upload the new calculator (V 4) to the original thread tonight or tomorrow, I have to go tend to my curing oven (time, tide and epoxy wait for no man)


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> HI Lucas,
> 
> You can in brewers friend. When you enter the hop addition to the recipe use the drop down list to select whirlpool. It will then give you the option to add utilisation and wort temp.
> Im surprised to see how high some guys here set it. I usually work with 5-6% and find it is on the money.


hi mate, so what is your whirlpool / hop stand process?

on brewer friend if i change time or starting temp the ibu doesnt change?

cheers


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## lukasfab (12/1/17)

i have a look at you calculator Lyrebird, cheers


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## lukasfab (13/1/17)

this what i get with BF online builder, roll with it??

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Batch 45. AIPA

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: American IPA
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 22 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 28.5 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.044
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.057
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 6.22%
IBU (tinseth): 93.14
SRM (morey): 11.11

FERMENTABLES:
4.658 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (81%)
0.5 kg - German - Red X (8.7%)
0.311 kg - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (5.4%)
0.22 kg - German - Wheat Malt (3.8%)
0.06 kg - German - Chocolate Wheat (1%)

HOPS:
6 g - Magnum, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.1, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 8.83
20 g - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 10.23
100 g - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 30.79
150 g - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 95 °C, IBU: 43.3

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temp: 66 C, Time: 60 min

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 81%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 12.22 - 25 C


Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2017-01-12 13:09 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2017-01-12 13:09 UTC


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/1/17)

FWIW I've put the new version (V4) of the calculator up in the original thread


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