# Esb Bavarian Wheat - Lacking Flavor



## crow (18/11/04)

Howdy,

I have an ESB Bav Wheat beer with K-97 yeast fermenting away at the moment (its only my second brew). She's 7 days gone, O.G was 1.038 and S.G is down to 1.012, wort temp has been pretty constant 18 - 20 degress.


Anyway, being impatient after having measured the first SG I filled a glass to get a idea of the raw wort taste looking forward to a hint of the typicaly complex bav. wheat beer flavors and was shocked to find it was bland as anything. Bland, brown and muddy !! 

Is this normal for an ESB kit ? Do these kits need to be augmented with some majic ingredient to get a decent weizen flavor, or will this come later on with lagering ? (Benchmark is Schoefferhoffer, Erdinger, Scneider)

As always, thanks in advance for your comments,
Crow


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## MCWB (18/11/04)

The yeast plays a major part in weizens. Using WLP300 or the Wyeast alternative will give you the 'cloves and banana' esters characteristic of your typical weizen. K-97 is a generic ale yeast IIRC, not a specialised weizen yeast. Weizens shouldn't need lagering either (unless you specifically want a Kristallweizen).


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## crow (18/11/04)

Thanks MCWB - Looks like I'll have to move up to liquid yeasts quick smart.


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## mikem108 (18/11/04)

My first ever brew was one of these, I thought is was great that I'd actually made beer but was simularly disappointed by the lack of distinct
Weisen flavours.
I've been using WLP380 with great success lately ,
K-97 gives more of a Wheat Ale result which I use for a Rapsberry-Wheat ale otherwise the flavours seem to compete too much with each other.


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## Jovial_Monk (18/11/04)

Unfermented wort is sweet, masking subtler flavors.

K97 is not a wheat yeast at all, a liquid yeast is really the go with wheats.

That said, I made up a couple ESB kits in my kit days and thought they were definitely better than average. Don't be discouraged yet. I am constantly amazed at the difference in taste of raw and fermented wort

Jovial Monk


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## devilsaltarboy (19/11/04)

I have only recently discovered the secret to making a good wheat beer.
Get a good wheat yeast which has already been stated.
To get the good banna/clove flavour pitch at around 12-14C and warm up to 20-22C I have found the best. 
I bottle so after priming and allowing to carbonate i cold condition bottles for 2-3 weeks (cleans up some off flavours).


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## crow (19/11/04)

mike, JM, dab - thanks for the feedback, its really appreciated.

My local HBS doesn't stock Wyeast. Do any of you know where you can get Wyeast in Sydney (preferably northside) and how much it costs for the 3068 WeihanStefan hefeweizen yeast ?

I thinking I'll retry the ESB kit straight away and replace the K-97 with the good stuff. Then I do a side-by-side compare once they're finished.


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## Linz (19/11/04)

Dave at "Hop to it" at Botany stocks wyeast


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## nonicman (20/11/04)

Crow, 
Can't help with the Wyeast, sorry. Like Mike108, I've been using White Labs 380 Hefeweizen IV. If you have difficulting getting the Wyeast the White Labs is worth a go. On the Northside, Dave's at North Sydney, or Gerald at Northern Districts Brewing will be able to sort you out.


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## Weizguy (20/11/04)

I have brewed the ESB 3kg Bav Wheat pack with Wyeast 3056 (Bavarian Wheat), admittedly a few years ago and found the wheat beer notes were there, but covered by the hoppiness of the kit. I still have some in bottles. Does that tell ya something?

Their recipe may be different now, and so may my tastes, but it was an unbalanced beer at the time.

Details : March '99
Vol: 24 litres
O.G: 1.045
F.G.: 1.010
Fermented at 20 Celsius with a 1 litre yeast culture


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## crow (22/11/04)

Weizguy, Quick update for you. 

Samples taken when measuring F.G. weren't overly hoppy at all. The extract kit seems to be a reasonable base nowadays. (Only problem seems to have been the bland K-97 yeast delivered with the kit - no 'cloves and banana' esters characteristics)

Crow


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## Jovial_Monk (22/11/04)

Hmm hefeweizen type beers are not meant to be hoppy, 25IBU is about right, IIRC

JM


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## Weizguy (23/11/04)

That's what I thought. All hops should be for bitterness only.
And ya can't have a Bavarian wheat wihout bananas.
American wheat -OK, but not for a German wheat.

It's a beercrime, IMO. (OK, was a beercrime. I'm almost over it now).

Digression is a hobby of mine, so now I must rant about the extract wheat (yes, believe it or not) I just made with W3068. It was one of BYO magazine's lawnmower beer recipes. Ferment @ 20 C. Tastes good at 6 daze (gravity sample only). Bottling this weekend.

Anyone else tried Muntons Wheat DME?


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## Jovial_Monk (23/11/04)

Just after opening the shop realised had no beer stocks and summer nigh. Boiled up 1Kg light dried malt extract, 1.6Kg Muntons wheat malt extract and a few Hallertau plugs, made for an OK wheat beer, better than buying anyway

Jovial Monk


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## Boozy the clown (22/8/05)

I finally put one of these through, tried it tonight, less than 2 weeks in the bottle. I liked it, thought it was pretty tasty

made it up to 21litres only though, maybe thats the difference


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## Steve (29/3/06)

Just though I share this one.
I recently made one of these with dried Windsor Ale yeast. Never had a wheat beer before :blink: 
It tasted ok, bit fruity and bananery - couldnt quite work it out. Anyway I drank the lot exept for two longnecks that have been in the fridge for about 3 weeks. Cracked one open last night - and by crikey - it was a spitting image of a bloody Coopers Pale Ale :blink: 
Bloody nice - wish I had some left. Figure that one out.
Cheers
Steve


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## Fingerlickin_B (7/4/06)

Speaking of Cooper's Pale Ale...

I've got one of these ESB bavarian wheat kits and cannot afford any yeast (MAJOR bills this week). 

So, my choices are the supplied K-97 or a recultured CAPA yeast (have a sachet of W34/70 in the fridge too, and not only is it unsuitable, but I wouldn't be able to keep the temps low enough). 

Stupid question time, which would be best suited, the 97 or the CAPA stuff?

I'd imagine getting a similar result from each of them, but as this will be my first wheat beer I'm not sure which route to take :huh: 

PZ.

*EDIT* - Just found a sachet of S-04 in the cupboard...although I wasn't very happy with the results last time I used it...still a maybe?


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## Fingerlickin_B (8/4/06)

No replies huh? 

Ok, I'll go with the K-97, as it was supplied with the kit h34r: 

PZ.


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## Fingerlickin_B (11/4/06)

Well, it's now been just over 24 hours since pitching the K-97 and there is NO action whatsoever, no yeast cake at the bottom, no krausen, no condensation under the lid...nothing  

Just tossed in the S-04 and will try to keep the temp no higher than 18deg once it starts up...here's hoping  

PZ.


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## Steve (11/4/06)

Finger - the reason why I had to use the Windsor Ale yeast was because my K97 that I threw in did not fire either. Did you get it from Cols in Kambah? If so let him know. We arent the only ones that its happening too.
Cheers
Steve


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## Fingerlickin_B (11/4/06)

Nah Steve, I didn't get it from Colin. I would have preferred to, but it was one of those on the way home from work type things and I live in Belco, so had to buy from that other HBS :huh: 

I've read good things about this kit in other threads, so I hope the S-04 works ok with it  

PZ.


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## crow (17/4/06)

Steve / Fingerlickin,

Crow here, the guy that started this thread back in Nov 2004. 

Sounds like you've already gone the route with he non K-97 yeast, but here some feedback from someone who's made a half dozen of these brews in the mean time.

K-97 is good, best results when brewed at lower temps say 18-20 degrees, otherwise can get low on the cloes and high on the banana esters. As good as a schoefferhofer but not exceptional.

However, I later did a batch with Wyeast 3068. I got to say even though I didn't realise at first, this was my best ever batch (the difference only hit home when I saved some money and made another subsequent batch with the K-97). The step down in flavours and rounding etc etc from a 3068 batch to a K-97 batch was VERY noticeable.

My verdict on the ESB & 3068, supported by a bunch of Bavarian Expats and the occasional passing tourist from Germany is this is as good, probably even better, than the best of the comercial german hefeweizens.


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## Fingerlickin_B (3/5/06)

Well, after finding it wasn't quite carbonated last night and ramping up the Co2 pressure for a few hours today I'm now drinking mine. 

As stated in another thread, the K-97 did appear to fire and the S-04 no doubt did as well :lol: 

Verdict: Good, but not in this weather...gotta' do it again next spring/summer and drink it then. 

Now, where to find some Germans? :lol: 

PZ.


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## Mr Bond (3/5/06)

crow said:


> However, I later did a batch with Wyeast 3068. I got to say even though I didn't realise at first, this was my best ever batch (the difference only hit home when I saved some money and made another subsequent batch with the K-97). The step down in flavours and rounding etc etc from a 3068 batch to a K-97 batch was VERY noticeable.
> My verdict on the ESB & 3068, supported by a bunch of Bavarian Expats and the occasional passing tourist from Germany is this is as good, probably even better, than the best of the comercial german hefeweizens.
> [post="120755"][/post]​



Couldn't agree more.
take heed all you budding wheat freaks this is excellent advice from someone who's tried it.
Flick the K97(which is a mislabeled Kolsch strain) and invest in a Bonafide liquid strain and taste the difference.


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## Fingerlickin_B (8/5/06)

Well, it was a hit with my dad and a friend...the only people who got a chance to taste it aside from me...as it's now all gone. 

5 days from tapped to tapped-out and I didn't even drink any of it on Friday, so that's really a 4 day keg life :lol: 

PZ.


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## Fingerlickin_B (5/11/06)

Well, since my last post in this thread earlier this year I have done two more of these kits. 

The earlier of the two had all sorts of hop additions, honey etc...tasted like crap...really sour  

So, I did a bone stock one recently with no additions whatsoever and it's really sour too :angry: 

I don't recall the first one I did having this taste, so what could it be? :huh: 

No, before you suggest infection I can say that's not the culprit unless the goo was already infected in the cans.
These were many brews apart and done in the same fermenter which churned out no sour beers in other batches fermented between the times I did these. 
Exact same sour taste in only these two ESB kit brews. 

PZ.


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## crow (7/11/06)

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Exact same sour taste in only these two ESB kit brews.



Fingerlickin, 
Three questions:
What yeast did you use for these 2 latest Wheat brews?
What types of temps were you brewing at ?
And, what was the time lag between end of fermentation and drinking.

Many brews ago (about this time last year) I made a couple of these kits with K97 again and yes I though the early tasting samples were sour or otherwise off. Somewhat depressed I thought I'd give them a chance to improve, after 3months they were pretty darn good. Perhaps it just needs some time in the bottle ?

In any case all subsequent brews have been using Wyeast 3068. (the head is soooo much better)

Cheers,
Chris


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## Fingerlickin_B (7/11/06)

crow said:


> Fingerlickin_B said:
> 
> 
> > Exact same sour taste in only these two ESB kit brews.
> ...



Every one of these has been done with K-97. 

After reading your post just now I think the issue may be with the quick-drinking on the last two. 

The first one would have been in the keg for at least three weeks before drinking, but the last two maybe a week or just under...having been told that wheat beers are best "young", this may have influenced things....that and running out of other beer. 

I'll move this keg to the back of my rotation so it'll be maybe three weeks before it hits the freezer...see what happens I suppose. 

I'll drink it anyway, as I am a cheapass and an alcoholic :lol: 

PZ.


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