# 50% Munich 50%MO 100% Cube hopped Zythos APA



## Oakers (24/4/13)

Any comments on this recipe idea?

50% Munich (2.5kg)
50% Maris Otter (2.5kg)
90g Zythos in the cube
US05

OG 1049
IBU 51 (predicted from no-chill function on IanH's BIAB spreadsheet)

I no-chill and have been thinking of doing a 100% cube hopped beer for a while. Anybody made anything similar or got any comments?

Cheers,
Oakers.


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## Arghonaut (24/4/13)

I've got a pound of zythos, only used it once in an American wheat, and the wheat overpowered it, seemed a fairly subtle hop. I'd be worried 50% Munich would overpower it more. Mine was no chilled with about 30 ibu worth at flameout.

I've been planning an apa or ipa with zythos and summit for a while, it's next on the brew list. Have a cube hopped chinook/cascade apa just finishing primary ATM, From memory it was about 12% Munich, 5% crystal, 1053 og, 47 ibu, finished at 1010, tastes awesome so far, hops are shining through. I did about 10 ibu at 60 min though.


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## Oakers (24/4/13)

Arghonaut said:


> I've got a pound of zythos, only used it once in an American wheat, and the wheat overpowered it, seemed a fairly subtle hop. I'd be worried 50% Munich would overpower it more. Mine was no chilled with about 30 ibu worth at flameout.
> 
> I've been planning an apa or ipa with zythos and summit for a while, it's next on the brew list. Have a cube hopped chinook/cascade apa just finishing primary ATM, From memory it was about 12% Munich, 5% crystal, 1053 og, 47 ibu, finished at 1010, tastes awesome so far, hops are shining through. I did about 10 ibu at 60 min though.


If Zythos is subtle maybe I should chuck in something else to give a bit more hop burst. I have Motueka, Nelson Sauvin, Galaxy and EKG on hand....maybe a little Galaxy?


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## Arghonaut (24/4/13)

In the wheat I did a light pineapple/citrus came through, my thoughts were it would pair well with a danky/resinous hop like summit or chinook. I may be well off the mark though! I think craftbrewer do an all zythos ipa. If it were me I'd do it all zythos but change the grain bill to something like 85 %MO, 10 %Munich, 5% whatever light crystal.

But if you are keen to try 50% Munich don't let me stop you!


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## iralosavic (24/4/13)

I've made plenty of beers with 50% or more munich, often Munich II and I have been impressed by all of them. I have never tried this kind of British IPA before though, so can't comment from experience. I'd honestly just do it, keep good brewery notes and use it as a benchmark for future recipes you come up with. You've got to take risks if you want to pioneer a new approach to something.


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## bum (24/4/13)

I have no experience with Zythos but the numbers look like a good beer to me. I do have experience with the method and made plenty of nice beers that way. Don;t hang on to it too long though. Hop flavour and aroma seems to fade a little faster in these beers - does in my brewery anyway.


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## Arghonaut (25/4/13)

These guys did a 100% Munich zythos apa:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=14319.0

And got an onion flavour. But craftbrewer/Bacchus do an all zythos ipa and reckon it has great citrus/pine flavour, I certainly got no onion.

Just do it and report back your results!


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## Yob (25/4/13)

There was a Zythos IPA at GABS last year that was stand out, hop flavour was anything but subtle


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## mxd (25/4/13)

I've done 0 min APA and AIPA's, my only fear would be sitting the wort on the hops for a long time in the cube might have a -ve affect ? Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.


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## kezza (25/4/13)

I did a brew not long ago it was 100% mo and all zythos i dont have my notes with me but it tasted alot like fanta


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## Oakers (25/4/13)

Thanks fellas. Only one way to find out for myself I guess. I'll give it a go and report back. 

Oakers.


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## pat_00 (2/5/13)

I just finished my 80% MO, 20% Munich, NC, Galaxy Cube Hopped Pale Ale. Was awesome. It didn't have quite enough hop flavour with just the cube hops, so I did a small hop tea and added it to the keg.


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## Midnight Brew (27/5/13)

Oakers said:


> Any comments on this recipe idea? 50% Munich (2.5kg)50% Maris Otter (2.5kg)90g Zythos in the cubeUS05 OG 1049IBU 51 (predicted from no-chill function on IanH's BIAB spreadsheet) I no-chill and have been thinking of doing a 100% cube hopped beer for a while. Anybody made anything similar or got any comments? Cheers,Oakers.


How'd you end up going with this one?


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## punkin (29/5/13)

How are you guys calculating your cube hop additions? I use beersmith, do you check no-chill and then just use 0 as the addition time or do you put a negative number in there (obviously it's not a zero addition if you allow for eddies and then whirlpool)?


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## Midnight Brew (29/5/13)

I've never cube hopped but I'd be guessing it was like a 20min addition on my system. It's something I want to try so I've got better guestimation when it comes around to it but because I do double batches (44L) the mass of the brew in the kettle holds temperature quiet stable. After the boil I flame out then the brew sits for 20 minutes for the convection currents to settle. Then whirlpool and wait 20 minutes then drain into cubes. I took some readings and got 97C after 20 minutes of settling, then 95C after whirlpool then settling. So that's a 5C drop in 40 minutes after flame out. Then I'm guessing, just guessing that it takes a steep dive in temp after being cubed because its exposed to the cold concrete floor of the garage and cool air.

It's something Id like to try by brewing a double batch of some sort of ale and bittering addition to 20 ibu. Then I've got 2x cubes. One will stay with the single bittering addition to make a quaff-er. The other cube identical will get another 20 ibus added from the cube addition to make an APA.


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## stakka82 (29/5/13)

^^^ I have a 50l brau (so roughly same batch sizes as midnight) which will tell me the temp of the wort sitting in it at all times, and I follow the same process:

20 min rest for convection currents
Whirlpool
20 min rest then cube

And the temp is always at 95 degrees give or take a degree when I cube. There are alpha acid isomerisation graphs v temp out there which will show the isomerisation % for a given temp.


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## Oakers (29/7/13)

Just tried this beer after 8 weeks in the bottle (i've been in Europe on a beer fact finding mission that i will report on elsewhere). It has turned out really nice. Good bitterness - nice and smooth, not harsh or overpowering. The hop flavour really comes through. It really is very citrusy...almost fanta like as i think someone mentioned. As you would expect from the grain bill it's very malty...probably a bit too malty for the hops. I ended up using 3kg MO and 2.5kg Munich, 80g Zythos in the cube and 10g dry hopped.I think it would be better if some of the munich and MO was replaced with pale malt. Perhaps a little wheat to help with head retention. All that said, it's a very nice and probably one of my better beers. I'll definitely be doing 100% cube hopping again. It's simple, straightforward and effective.


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## sponge (30/7/13)

punkin said:


> How are you guys calculating your cube hop additions? I use beersmith, do you check no-chill and then just use 0 as the addition time or do you put a negative number in there (obviously it's not a zero addition if you allow for eddies and then whirlpool)?


I calculate my cube hops as a 20min addition.

As stated in another thread (forget which one) I started by calculating them as 10min additions, then 15min, and still found them fairly bitter, so have stuck to using 20min with better results. Especially when using higher AA% hops, the difference between the calculated bitterness levels for 15min and 20min can be substantial.


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## Arghonaut (30/7/13)

Funny, i have been calculating mine as 10 minutes and been happy with the results. Probably depends a bit on process aswell, ie how long after flame out until it gets in the cube. Ambient temps might also play a role? I imagine a beer cubed on a summer morning will cool alot slower then one cubed on a winter evening.


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## Oakers (30/7/13)

I use Ianh's BIAB spreadsheet which calculates no chill as a 15 min addition. According to his spreadsheet the recipe above gave predicted IBU of 42.2...in actuality the beer doesn't quite taste as bitter as that but it is a malty beer.


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## sponge (31/7/13)

Arghonaut said:


> Funny, i have been calculating mine as 10 minutes and been happy with the results. Probably depends a bit on process aswell, ie how long after flame out until it gets in the cube. Ambient temps might also play a role? I imagine a beer cubed on a summer morning will cool alot slower then one cubed on a winter evening.


Process will definitely play a roll in the bitterness obtained from cubing (IMO).

I will be the first to admit, I don't normally whirlpool for as long as most, and may play a part in my beers (perceived) bitterness. The concrete slab in the garage tends to hold a fairly steady temp (especially being located at the bottom of a 2 story block of apartments and the brewery in the storage area out the back doesn't get any sunlight) so I haven't noticed too much of a change between rates of cooling over summer/winter, although I am sure they would be somewhat different.

As per most things brewing, learn your system and adjust accordingly. Everyone can give advice on what a brewer should do, but may not be (as) appropriate for the individual system.


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