# Favorite hefeweizen yeast / method.



## Dave70 (10/10/16)

In particular, one that throws plenty of banana / bubblegum / clove with a tart finish. 
I had a few down at Zierholz ( http://www.zierholz.com.au/ ) and it had it in spades, even the aroma. Not that I brew many (German) hefes, but when I do they generally come out on the yeasty / tart side of the ledger, which kind of put me off. 
How about fermentation temps? I normally go at a 18 deg - as Jamil recommends in BCS, to cool? Is under pitching also key to getting those esters and phenols going?


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## Midnight Brew (10/10/16)

I keep reading different anecdotal experience that is very varied in terms of temperatures. Some say ferment at 17 for perfect balance while others swear by a fuerilic acid rest.

I know it would of got marked down like crazy at a competition but I once brewed a hefe at around 22-23 with wy3068 before my temperature control and came out with these pleasant dominating bubblegum flavours. Took it to a wedding in bottles and they all guzzled it down. 

Have you read brewing with wheat by stan hieronomys? Valuable insight into the methods and history of it all. Are you in Melbourne? I could lend you my copy if you wish.


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## Dave70 (10/10/16)

Cheers. Nah, in Sydney. 
I've only got Stans Brew Like a Monk. Time to hit the Book Depository. Hopefully be here in time for Christmas..


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## rude (10/10/16)

I've done a few using the  Weihenstephan wyeast

Im the same as you Dave came out on the clove tart side fermented at 18c

Single infusion for me but have since gone to R/O water & adjusting to suit so must give the wheat another go

Did try to up the ferment temp to 22c once never again both batches came out how do I describe this 
alcoholic, hot , ethanol no bannana

I have always underpitched my wheat yeast

Have also heard the 30 rule is a good way to ferment start at 12 & raise to 18c


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## kaiserben (10/10/16)

I aim for and get plenty of banana esters. 

Low pitching rate and a lack of oxygen seem to be what works most importantly for me. Stresses the yeast into favouring banana esters. 

I avoid a ferulic acid rest because I don't particularly want to highlight clove characteristics. 

I massively under-pitch (in reality that means I pitch 1 pack of White Labs whatever strain, which by the time I get around to using it usually would have about 50-60bn viable cells) and the only oxygenation I do is a little bit of splashing as I pump wort out into the fermenter. 

I've tried a range of fermentation regimes and don't see any massive differences. I prefer to control temp at about 18C purely because that will stop krausen from rising up and out of the fermenter (ie less cleaning up to do). But I do get a little bubblegum when using WLP300 and letting it ferment at ambient in my apartment (~21C) without any temp control.


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## Droopy Brew (10/10/16)

You need balance IMO. All banana and it is a bit sweet but getting that banana/clove in balance is the key to the best Hefes.

I have done quite a few now and reckon I have it down pat. I like to use about 60% wheat, 30% pils and a bit of caramunich, rolled oats and vienna. I either single infuse at 66C or step from 56C for 10, 63C for 60 72C for 10. Both work well but the step infusion gives that bit of extra body.

I pitch a reasonable amount of yeast- I do err on the side of under pitch but not by much. I give it a bit of O2, but again not like I do with most other beers. In other words I stress the yeast just a tad and avoid really stressing them.

I ferment at 17C and after 36 hours krausen is pissing out- always use a blow off tube. After about 4-5 days it is down to about 1.020 and smelling quite clovey in the fermentation fridge. I then bump the temp straight to 20C- none of this stepping it gradually bullshit (I think this is the stressor that gets the esters moving). I let it go until day 10 and then cold crash overnight for kegging. I only cold crash so the beer is at serving temp for carbonation as soon as it is kegged- not to floc out the yeast which you want to keep.

I have done maybe half a dozen like this and always get a lot of banana on the nose, on the front of the palate and a clove finish- how they should be.

Edit: Forgot the yeast- 3068 is the tits.


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## Dave70 (11/10/16)

From the Wyeast 3068 blurb. 

*This yeast strain produces a beautiful and delicate balance of banana esters and clove phenolics. The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived*.

By wort density, are they simply referring to a higher OG? 
As for the pitching rate, is under pitching to be taken as literal as only using half the contents of the smack pack, or rather just not making say a 2L starter for the average 23L batch?


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## Droopy Brew (11/10/16)

Use a whole pack Dave. I have done this and even used considerably more yeast by repitching a good amount of slurry.
You dont need to stress the **** out of the yeast to get esters, just give it a nudge with a slight underpitch, lower DO levels and a rapid temp bump of a few degrees after a few days.
I reckon over stressing any yeast is a good way to **** up a beer, although this is the one yeast where you can push the boundaries a bit.


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## dannymars (11/10/16)

WLP800 - pure pitch... one packet, no starter... 17C
single infusion mash, light body (64.5C)
60% pils, 40% wheat
60min hersbrucker to 20IBU

I've had good success with this very simple recipe and method. (placed 3rd @ beerfest this year)
TBH tho... This threw a fair amount of H2S (Hydrogen Sulphide, rotten egg gas)..... It was still slightly present after kegging... I scrubbed it out by blowing CO2 down the liquid tube with the lid off until it was gone. Also stirred it with a copper pipe (which is meant to react with the H2S, creating copper sulphate)... YMMV
I haven't yet looked into how to avoid this, but may do some research if I was to make another batch.


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## pat_00 (11/10/16)

Excellent. I'm planning on brewing a hefe next week.

In the past I've had the same issues of too much banana, which leads to my beers tasting a bit sweet.


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## MartinOC (11/10/16)

dannymars said:


> WLP800 - pure pitch... one packet, no starter... 17C
> 
> TBH tho... This threw a fair amount of H2S (Hydrogen Sulphide, rotten egg gas)..... It was still slightly present after kegging... I scrubbed it out by blowing CO2 down the liquid tube with the lid off until it was gone.


WLP800 is a Pilsner lager yeast, not a Weizen yeast, so no wonder you got a lot of H2S (particularly at 17C). Not really what the OP was asking about to get the esters & phenolics he's after.


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## dannymars (11/10/16)

MartinOC said:


> WLP800 is a Pilsner lager yeast, not a Weizen yeast, so no wonder you got a lot of H2S (particularly at 17C). Not really what the OP was asking about to get the esters & phenolics he's after.


soz, I meant WLP300

(I always get them mixed up in my mind for some ******* reason)....


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## MartinOC (11/10/16)

Aha! Now THAT makes more sense!


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## mr_wibble (11/10/16)

I always find my wheat beers have almost no banana and too much clove (using '3068). 
I lay awake at night dreaming about bubblegum flavours. But never ever ever had them.

I've tried under-pitching (suggested way to get more banana), that just lead to arse flavours, I'm giving up on that for now.

The ferulic acid rest promotes formation of clove esters, (ref: http://beerandwinejournal.com/german-wheat-beer-iii/ ) I always have a lot of clove. Maybe I taste it easier. 
I have not fermented at above 19C though.

Have you had that UK "Banana Bread Beer"? It's made with bananas. I'm considering adding bananas to my next hefeweizen. (That previous sentence might be a lie).


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## earle (11/10/16)

Mr Wibble said:


> I always find my wheat beers have almost no banana and too much clove (using '3068).
> I lay awake at night dreaming about bubblegum flavours. But never ever ever had them.
> 
> I've tried under-pitching (suggested way to get more banana), that just lead to arse flavours, I'm giving up on that for now.
> ...


Give these a go then.







I like banana and clove in my hefe's but don't rate the Banana Bread Beer.

Have a hefe in the fermenter now with 3068, but when I was chasing some 3068 for my last batch the shop didn't have any but suggested that i give Danstar/Lallemand Abbaye a go as they had used it and found it to produce some bubblegum flavours. I gave it a go but while tasty wasn't quite what I was after. Maybe with different temp though? http://www.danstaryeast.com/company/products/abbaye-belgian-ale-yeast


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## Chridech (11/10/16)

If your looking for banana ester (isoamyl acetate) a good trick I picked up from MHB in another thread is to add a small amount of dextrose (eg. 100g). Apparently yeasties will use this preferentially during the early ferment to throw out plenty of banana. Admittedly I've only done one hefeweizen with dextrose but I had good results. A combination of 3068 at 50% Ale Pitch rate, target DO 8ppm (O2 1L/min for 1minute), a ferulic acid rest and ferment at 17C gave a good balance of cloves and bananas IMO. Not much in the way of bubblegum. Only problem is you have to drink it pretty fast as the esters and phenolics noticeably fade by 4-6 weeks. What problem?


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## rude (11/10/16)

Nice one Chridech might have to give this a go never had bannana when I have tried

Always found rousing the yeast gave more flavour not as clovey

Havent had a lot of commercial examples but I do like  Weihenstephaner Hefe & the Dunkel oh and the Vitus
to me it has heaps of both with loads of malt coming through

Over here in the west years ago Redback was all the rage with bubblegum bannana & clove way back then

Dont try it now cause you dont get none of it

Saying all this my wheats are acceptable but I spose you have a Weihenstephaner & think where can I improve ?

The Paulaner is nice but on the clove side of things

Forgot the Kristall Weinstephaner amazes me heaps of bannana really like it

Bloody hell then there are the Belgiums I love Hoegaarden rich malty backbone

Fark Im brewing a wheat tomorrow


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## Chridech (12/10/16)

rude said:


> Nice one Chridech might have to give this a go never had bannana when I have tried
> 
> Always found rousing the yeast gave more flavour not as clovey
> 
> ...


Of the commercial hefe I can get hold of readily Weihenstephaner weissbier is a favourite, like the banana. Not a fan of Paulaner. Sierra Nevada Hefeweizen and Moo Broo Hefe I've found at Dans in the last few months and both had good balance. Still like a Redback but don't seek it out. Have a Vitus in the fridge at the moment and looking forward to trying it. Will brew a Weizenbock when summer is over. Feral White is a good go to Belgian Wit.

After reading through the thread above the consensus looks to be aiming for a balance of banana and clove. 
Wyeast 3068 is a beast and will do the job for the paler hefes. So, maybe some Dex in the grist if you want lots of banana, a ferulic acid rest for cloves, a step mash (something like 45/?55/62/72) or even a decoction for rich malt flavours, underpitch yeast, don't overdo the oxygen and ferment at 17-18c, with perhaps a ramp towards end of ferment. Drink it quick. The multi-step mash may be overkill but I tend to brew the hard way.


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## fraser_john (12/10/16)

Most pre-cursors for esters are formed by the yeast during the lag time, so I use a single 3068 pack in 23 litres of wort, OG somewhere near 1050 no starter. You don't want weizen finishing sweet, should be lower FG, so don't use any form of caramalt in it. I use a 50% wheat 50% pils mix. For the hop I use Tettnang, I find Hallertau Mittlefrugh gives too much spiciness that adds to the clove character of the yeast, upsetting the balance.

Good luck, when you get it right its awesome, but its a lot of fiddling and even then, sometimes it just does not hit the mark.


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## Weizguy (17/10/16)

fraser_john said:


> Good luck, when you get it right its awesome, but its a lot of fiddling and even then, sometimes it just does not hit the mark.


I agree. I brewed awesome wheat beer years ago, but every change to my brewery, kettle, fermentor, changing to grain from extract etc, has altered my flavour profile, and now that I am settled for a while I hope to re-refine my technique to make more of the beer I enjoy.

There has been some discussion on other threads about producing weizen flavours more easily with the use of Belgian yeast. Search for NickJD in the first instance, and then maybe go to the thread I have recently created, or see the Brewing with Wheat book, by Stan Hieronymus.


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