# Weihenstephan Wheat Yeast



## Borret (21/4/05)

Ok I am a bit bummed.

Did my first partial last weeked and it was a wiezen beer. Mash went fine, even tried a ferulic acid rest at 43 deg for 1/2 hr, 1hr rest at 65deg and mid 70's mash out and 90 boil went fine. Was pleased- got 1049 from 2kg grain and 1 kg wheat LME in 15 litres. 
The starter I made for this beer fermented out and was chilled 2 days before pitching. It tasted right with plenty of banana from being cultured at ambient (25 deg )temps. I only pitched about 300ml of it with the slurry from the whole 1.7 litres. I cold pitched it with the wort at 16 deg and brought it up to 19/20 over about 12 hrs where it stayed for it's duration. I aerated with an airstone for about 1/2 to 3/4 hr before sealing fermentor .Activity started after avout 10hrs. Krausen got to about 1/4 the wort depth so thinks worked OK.

Has fermented out in 5 days to 1011 with yeasty goodness flocced to the top. Now it definately tasts more grainy and fresh, I'm pleased with that but the yeast characteristics just aren't there yet. This is where my disappointment lies. Will probably prime with DME and cross my fingers that bottle secondary gives it a little bit (ala schnieder wiesse) but I was hoping for better results at this point.

Can anyone give me some pointers for next time or detail what they do for a succesful clovy wiezen beer.

Down in the dumps

Borret <_<


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## Weizguy (21/4/05)

Borret said:


> Can anyone give me some pointers for next time or detail what they do for a succesful clovy wiezen beer.
> 
> Borret <_<
> [post="55750"][/post]​


Don't try to control the temp. U will get more esters by fermenting at ambient temp, if this is what U want.

I still have a few bottles of my last Weizen which used that yeast. Would U like me to drop a sample in at the lhbs 4 U to taste? Fermented at about 24 C. Not any good if U don't like banana ester, tho.

I am currently fermenting an American wheat beer with an American Ale yeast (W1056 equivalent), and still getting banana, but no clove (to my taste, anyway). It's @ 22C.
Is this wrong to see these flavours? We don't hear a lot about American wheat beers on this forum, at least since I have been here. I find it quite pleasant and easy to drink.

Seth out 4 now


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## Dunkel_Boy (21/4/05)

As for the problem, I'm clueless, though I thought that wheat yeasts required a very specific temperature to produce the correct flavour profile.

I don't think American wheats have the phenolic/clove/banana flavours (by design), and I assume have about 20IBU more than they should have.


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## Weizguy (21/4/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> As for the problem, I'm clueless, though I thought that wheat yeasts required a very specific temperature to produce the correct flavour profile.
> 
> I don't think American wheats have the phenolic/clove/banana flavours (by design), and I assume have about 20IBU more than they should have.
> [post="55761"][/post]​



The American ales all seem to point that way, but the wheat only has about the same IBUs as my Bavarian weizen , but has a little flavour hops ( 1 plug of Willamette + little Amarillo).

Borret,...
Maybe U should prime with Muntons wheat DME and keep the bottles warm after priming.

Seth


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## Dunkel_Boy (21/4/05)

Perhaps closer to 24C would have created more esters.
The yeast apparently likes 18-24C (don't we all?) but I imagine there's a clean-estery profile from the bottom to the top of that range...


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## Borret (21/4/05)

From what I have read the ideal temp for this yeat is about 19-20 so that is whatI aimed for. I have done a wiezen bock in the past that used recultured aventinus yeast brewed ab little higher nad secondaried at ambient temps where I believe it developed the banana and it's quite bananaery but no clove. So I aimed at the lower end to try and achieve more clove. 
Will cross my fingers with a warmer bottle ferm to get at least some flavour.

Do you think that the wheat DME for priming will make such a difference or will plain DME suffice. Do both the shops in town sell the muntons? ( I know my closest at toronto has jack), could probably use the morgans liquid wheat instead if you reckon it would make a difference.and it may save me a 45 min trip into town.

But still, someone round here must know how to get clove!

Borret.


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## Gulf Brewery (21/4/05)

Borret

The temperature range is critical if you want to get the correct combination of esters with these yeasts. It just depends on the balance you want. It sounds like you are looking for banana, so I would pitch and maintain in the low 20's and definitely wouldn't cold pitch this one as you want the esters.

Weizguy - The problem with ambient temperature is that is going to vary depending on where you are in the country and what room of the house it is in. 

Pedro


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## Dunkel_Boy (21/4/05)

Gulf Brewery said:


> Borret
> 
> The temperature range is critical if you want to get the correct combination of esters with these yeasts. It just depends on the balance you want. It sounds like you are looking for banana, so I would pitch and maintain in the low 20's and definitely wouldn't cold pitch this one as you want the esters.
> 
> ...



And ambient temperature could be perfectly constant...


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## Gulf Brewery (21/4/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> And ambient temperature could be perfectly constant...
> [post="55777"][/post]​



Yep 13C in Tassie and 28C in Cape York. We are trying to help here by specifying the correct range for the yeast and the profile that Borret is looking for.

Pedro


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## Borret (21/4/05)

The other aspect I have read about is pitching and aeration affecting it . I have read about pitching a smaller starter to stress the yeast to give the phenolics which I am after but can't find notes on aeration. I imagine if you pitch small then aeration must be substancial to get enough growth.

Hmmmmm

Borret


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## Dunkel_Boy (21/4/05)

Gulf Brewery said:


> Dunkel_Boy said:
> 
> 
> > And ambient temperature could be perfectly constant...
> ...



Let me bow down and display my utmost apologies.
Downstairs holds a constant 20C, and hits 24C in summer, though I'm sure you would agree that it's a pretty constant 13C in Tassie...
That is all I meant, and although it is little help for Borret (I am genuinely sorry for that) I was merely trying to discredit Weizguy (joking!), and by that I mean I was curious about how constant temperature can be detrimental to yeast, but I'll take a guess and say since they are estery beers, it's (possibly) not as critical to maintain a perfect 19.8C for the entire fermentation.
Now, let's move on.


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## Gulf Brewery (21/4/05)

Borret

I suggest you do a beer at 21/22 1st pitching a healthy starter into a well aerated wort. On your next one, lower the pitching rate and see what effect hat has on the beer, while keeping the temperature at 21/22. You might find the esters that are produced because the yeast is stressed are not to your liking. 

Cheers
Pedro


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## Borret (21/4/05)

The other info I have found just now discredits the pitching thing (i think). On schneiders website they say that the yeast harvested is 4 times the amount that is pitched. This doesn't seam like a huge amount of growth so there must be a decent quantity to start with.. but that's just my interpretation.

Borret


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## Weizguy (22/4/05)

Fellas,

I was thinking that Borret's ambient should be similar to mine, as we are both (relatively) from Newcastle, give or take 30 km or so.  

I usually make a starter which is a minimum of 500ml, and sometimes 1.25 litres for a weizen.

An interesting experiment might be to start a batch with a small starter and ferment in a temp-controlled env. Then, when U rack to secondary, pour another batch of cooled wort onto the yeast cake from the primary. This may require room for 2 fermentors in your temp-controlled area.

If you really want phenolics, I could prob sling U a Belgian Wit culture which will give you plenty of phenols at 20C. You could use it alone, or mix with the Weizen yeast.

My apologies to Dunkel_Boy (and others) for oversimplifying the situation by using terms such as "ambient". Spank me, I've been a bad boy...

Borret, PM me if U R interested in the Belgian Wit yeast, or a sample of my Weizen. Do U get your supplies in the Newcastle area, or mail order from Syd (or other)?

Seth


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## MAH (22/4/05)

OK, I'm also having a bit of trouble with this yeast. Last Sunday I took the day off from house renovations and mate came over to brew he wanted to make a German Wheat. 

Grain bill was 50/50 wheat/pils. It was a multi step mash 44/62/70/76. It was a double decoction to hit the 62 and 70 rests and infusion for mash out. The wort was chilled through a CFWC then put in the fridge to chill down to 12C for pitching. During this the starter was decanted and just over a litre of the new wort was added. By the time of pitching it was bubbling away nicely and then pitched into 19 litres. Aeration was OK but nothing likely using a bubbler. Since then it's been fermenting at 18C (wort temp) to hit the mystical (or maybe mythical) 30C formula of pitch temp + ferment temp.

Tasting a sample, it's fairly nice and clean, but a bt dull on wheat beer characteristics. It's got me stumped.

As a side note, my mate had bought the smack pack from a LHBS that often boasts how fresh their yeast are. When I was culturing it up for him, I noticed they had sold him a pack manufactured 6 months ago. 

Cheers
MAH


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## warrenlw63 (22/4/05)

I've always had strife with Wyeast 3068. :angry: 

Almost to the point that it turns me off making Weizens. 

I always pop the pack, make a starter and step it up. I always get the required esters and phenolics from tasting the starters and become very encouraged that this weizen is going to be "the one".

I do what MAH does and use the 30 rule. However the final beer always seem to wind up very bland and muted and lacks the required esters/phenolics.

Next time I do one (it's going to take a lot of convincing) I'm going to pitch and ferment higher just to (hopefully) force the hand of the esters.

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (22/4/05)

Oh, I forgot.

To add to the thread I've also heard that the Whitelabs, I'm not sure if it's WLP300 or WLP380 are supposed to produce the goods in a more respectable fashion. In fact Malt Shovel's Summer Wheat was supposed to have used one of these two.

Obviously can't verify this myself because I've never used Whitelabs before only Wyeast. YMMV

Warren -


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## Weizguy (22/4/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> To add to the thread I've also heard that the Whitelabs, I'm not sure if it's WLP300 or WLP380 are supposed to produce the goods in a more respectable fashion. In fact Malt Shovel's Summer Wheat was supposed to have used one of these two.
> [post="55835"][/post]​



My lhbs usually deals with Wyeast, but has offered to get me the WhiteLabs yeast that made the JS Summer Wheat. I was quite impressed/interested in the fruity flavours in it.



warrenlw63 said:


> I do what MAH does and use the 30 rule. However the final beer always seem to wind up very bland and muted and lacks the required esters/phenolics.



I generally make the mistake of ignoring the 30 rule. I pitch and ferment in the low to mid 20s, and get enough esters/phenolics, with an emphasis on banana.
A short while back, I made an extract Weizen with W3068. It was an 8-day wonder. In fermentor for 5 days (7+ litres of foam/krausen), and in plastic 2 litre bottles for 3 days carbonation. It was almost all consumed on Superbowl Monday (Sunday in the US), and it was superb. Just dumb luck.

Seth


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## Borret (22/4/05)

Hi warren,

I know this sounds like a slack thing to say but that's good to hear. I am not alone. I feel you explained perfectly my frustrations. I have tried this yeast on a number of occasions ans had the same result and am ready to give it the heave. Have tipped a whole brew of it not cause it was of, just cause it wasn't worth drinking. Only thing stopping me is the love of the style. Only one I have had that sort of worked was a wiezen bock that I put into secondary before I went away for 10 days last novemeber. So I have no idea what temps it sat at but it was probably warm. It had plenty of banana on my return home but still no phenolics. It's a pleasant beer though. Tasted crap out of primary.
Crossing my finger this will do a similar thing with the wheat DME priming so it is salvagable.

From what I have read the wlp 300 is the same or very similar to the wyeast 3068 we are discussing.

If I crack it and find the holy grail of this yeast somehow I will let you know. No one deserves this anguish.

Cheers Borret


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## warrenlw63 (22/4/05)

Yep,

It's very frustrating Borret. You get the impression that the yeast should do all the work but it lets you down. Not a real problem to mash wheat and barley (sometimes).

I've even gone 70% wheat and 30% barley to no avail. I've tried single decoction, step and single infusion mashes to achieve what I'm after.

Think I'm going to throw the rules out the window next time and try Seth's practice of fermenting warmer than what's considered normal.

My other main gripe with fermenting Weizens is the mess they make. IMO to ferment 20 litres you virtually need a 40 litre fermenter. :huh: 

Warren -
(I'll get there one day)


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## Borret (22/4/05)

Weiz, did you get my PM?

Borret


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## Weizguy (22/4/05)

Borret said:


> Weiz, did you get my PM?
> 
> Borret
> [post="55867"][/post]​



Yep. I'll get back 2 U in the next 20 min. Apologies.

My daughter is using the PC to play on the web.

BTW, I have my Wyeast wall chart, which advises the temp range for the W3068 is
18 - 24 C. Go for it.
Seth


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## Borret (22/4/05)

Hmmmmm, wyeast wall chart. Do you have a digital version of that??!!

Higher secondary away we go.

Speeking of wall charts, have you seen the periodic table of beer. It's very usefull indeed. Got a digital copy of that but you will need a big printer....as I have at work.

Look forward to your reply 

Borret.


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## Weizguy (22/4/05)

Borret said:


> Hmmmmm, wyeast wall chart. Do you have a digital version of that??!!
> 
> Higher secondary away we go.
> 
> ...


PM on its way.

I have no digital version of the wall chart, but most brew shops who sell Wyeast got these a while back. I can ask at Mark's if you wish.

Maybe a caring hbs owner out there has a spare for you. Otherwise, I believe that U can request one by mail from Wyeast. See their website.

Seth out


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## Borret (22/4/05)

10-4 over


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## Borret (22/4/05)

Guy's

Hold the phone. This yeast is bizzare. Yesterday nothing. All activity had ceased so had let it sit at whatever over the last 24 hrs so about the 20-22 mark. Tonight I bulk prime with wheat DME and taste the dregs about an hour after priming and there it is. A slight banana aroma and definately a hint of clove and even perhaps vanila forming in the background. I am feeling encouraged. Does all this yeasts goodness happen in secondary? Perhaps the claims of the main bavarian breweries is totally true and one of the major factors is the secondary fermentation (in the bottle). I could never understand those statements when you can get these flavours in the starter and not in the brew.
Time will tell. Or I am going insane.

Seth I went for 200g of DME for the 15 litres as this is the direction most of the calculators on the web were heading me for 3 volumes. From the research I did although malt has a approx 75% attenuation the gas produced is somewhere near only 61-62% of the same weight in sugar. Promash actually reckoned to use more but that was the limit of my trust. All in those bulletproof european pint bottles and thick brown 330's so should stand the pace.

Fingers crossed

Borret.


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## Weizguy (27/6/05)

Borret,

Would like to hear how U went.

I started a weizen with a 1 litre culture last night and tonight it is about to scum-up the inside of my fermentor lid and foam out of the airlock (23 l in a 30 l vesssel).

Going off at 17 C. Outside the temp range 4 this yeast. Go figure? Happy? I'm ecstatic!

Seth out 4 now  :beerbang:


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## colinw (28/6/05)

Weizen yeast is funny stuff.

I haven't tried 3068 yet, but the weizens I've made with WLP300 and fermented at 20C have mostly had nice balanced banana/clove. That's with 50/50 Weyermann wheat & pilsner malt and a simple infusion mash at 67C, no ferulic acid rests or anything.

One funny thing about WLP300 is that it seems to lose its character with either big pitching or successive generations of yeast. The batches where I've made a 2 litre starter haven't had nearly as much character as the 1 litre starters, and one batch where I got lazy and just pitched a WLP300 tube - something I wouldn't normally do - was actually the best of all even though it took 24 hours to get going. It developed esters beyond just banana, including complex pear like notes which reminded me of Schneider Weisse.

I've never had a good result with repitching WLP300. Every time I've repitched WLP300 slurry I've ended up a with a beer with no banana and very subdued clove. If I try again I'm going to cut back the amount of slurry I repitch to see if its a change in the yeast or just relates to the cell count.

My next weizen will be with Wyeast 3638, which I haven't tried before.

cheers,
Colin


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## AndrewQLD (28/6/05)

I Made a heffeWeizen a few months ago with WLP380, and admittedly I fermented a tad high, 23c. Boy did this have a lot of banana flavor and aroma, smelt and tasted like those banana lollies my kids eat. I haven't been game to make another one, even though I have a vial full of the yeast, it was just too overpowering.

Andrew


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## Borret (28/6/05)

Damb zose Cwazy Germans with their secret plans to send us all mad.

Wiez, 

In the end it did turn out in dissapointment. Some of the flavour was there but all that I had tasted at bottling time was gone when it came to drinking even after the bottle secondary @ 22deg.. And it was far too carbonated (as you may have guessed). Pouring is possible but a long and painfull process. So in my quest for the answer to all things german wheat I vowed not to bother with mashing wheat again till I at least get something drinkable from extract out of this yeast. :angry: 

So bearing all this in mind and using another of the same culture I tried again with extract. Bittered and aroma with tettnanger and only a 10lt batch and using your advice (that collin has just confirmed) and pitched low. I only used less than a half litre starter for the 10litres (bearing in mind I used 1.8 for the 15litres before) and used some dried yeast as nutrient in the boil. I then aerated the sucker like there was no tommorow. I am now using a stainless airstone hooked up to a small compressor which really creates some turbulence in the fermentor. Anyway aerated it 4 times over about 5hr till the foam was at the top of the fermentor. and cooled to 16 deg in this time. Within 24 hrs all was crankin and it actually held it's own temp @ 19-20deg over some very cold nights in my ferm box. I was also interested to see that the foam was dome shaped too, about the same height again as the wort in the middle and only 20mm high around the edge (?). 

Anyway at first taste when things calmed down (4 days) I was again dissapointed so I just left it sit as last time this was when I noticed some flavour develop (I was so discouraged I left it for a week.) Anyway when I tasted it to bottle the banana was almost overpowering and again there was clove. The OG was only 1044 so it was lighter than my last one. So now it's all bottled (only 10g WDME / litre this time) and tasted and there is a drop in the banana (thankfully) and what remains I am quite happy with although closer to a paulaner hefe wiesbier than the schnieder benchmark that I have set myself.  

So I have made progress. Next batch I will probably go around the 20L mark and aim again for 500 ml starter and use some wyeast nutrient (I now have some) to kick it along.

Now that's all off my chest.... sorry for the essay but you did ask.

Any more snippets of wisdom you have before my next run will be recieved with open eyes(arms) 

Will ben interested to hear how yours turns out. What was your recipe? 

10-4

Borret :blink:


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## Borret (28/6/05)

colinw said:


> I've never had a good result with repitching WLP300. Every time I've repitched WLP300 slurry I've ended up a with a beer with no banana and very subdued clove. If I try again I'm going to cut back the amount of slurry I repitch to see if its a change in the yeast or just relates to the cell count.
> 
> My next weizen will be with Wyeast 3638, which I haven't tried before.
> 
> ...


Collin,

FWIW -Interesting you say this. If you have had a look around the schnieder website (very informative) they do harvest their yeast for reuse but they only skim it off the top. Are you harvesting and washing trub that may not be the healthiest top cropping yeast of the batch or are you skimming for reuse? I have not harvested this yeast, I tend to culture and split the original so I cannot comment directly on experience with the reuse thing but I thought you might find the schnieder website interesting. 

But also as you say the rate of pitching with slurry may be too high. I too am experimenting with this.

Borret :blink:


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## Weizguy (28/6/05)

Borret,

Thanks for the rapid (and positive) response.

My Weizen o.g. was only 1.040.
As you may have guessed by my nickname here, I have enjoyed some success with wheat beer and have fun consuming them.

My recipe is quite basic, and is all dry extract based (+ hops, of course).

I'll PM the recipe to U. I would favourably compare it to Shofferhofer hefeweizen. :chug: 

Seth out


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## Hophead (28/6/05)

From a post by GT at Grumpy's (couldnt work out how to post the link)

"It has been recommended by Dave Logsdon of wyeast that the yeast needs to have a longer lag time than an ale yeast (wheat yeasts are essentially ale strains) so that the esters typical of German wheat beers are created. Frankly I find this pitching rate hard to quantify and would rather recommend that the brewer makes a regular ale sized starter and pitches it into a wort temp that is cooler than the recommended ferm. temp.
Worth considering is the ferulic acid rest (sorry, mashers only) at 40-43*C which, if I recall correctly, produces 4-vinyl-guaiacol, the precursor of the clove aroma.

I would pitch ale size but at 12*C and ferm at 18-20*C."


May help


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## Busboy (28/6/05)

Borret, I followed that Schneider-Weisse link and found it very informative (as you said). It's interesting that they ferment in open vats. I wonder how they keep out the undesirable bacteria?

Sorry, don't mean to hijack this thread.


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