# 15 grams of yeast.. instead of 11.5..



## Beak (29/5/15)

gday alll just wondering why yeast packs have increased up to 15g. my mate reckons they were around the 11g mark. any suggestions?


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## slcmorro (29/5/15)

Which packs in particular?


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## Feldon (29/5/15)

Might be the same situation as in this thread?:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/85463-fermentis-dry-yeast-now-15-grams-up-from-115-grams/


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## panzerd18 (29/5/15)

Beak said:


> gday alll just wondering why yeast packs have increased up to 15g. my mate reckons they were around the 11g mark. any suggestions?


Lucky I am a mind reader so I know what you're talking about.

The yeast packs you are referring to are still at 11.5 grams. Keg King sell 15 gram packs as they get in large yeast blocks, separate the yeast themselves and then on sell it.

EDIT: Dam Feldon you beat me to it!


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## Yob (29/5/15)

what packs?

I got told there are some .. repackaged.. US05 getting about (in official looking packets).. none of it legit as far as I know, at least not endorsed by the manufacturer... at the VERY least


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/5/15)




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## Yob (29/5/15)

Ha.. who can say Stu..

I got a warning from a pretty respected distributor that the 15's were certainly not from the manufacturer and .. shall we say,.. uncontrolled.

Does NOT mean that all 15g sachets making the rounds are not going to make beer.. just QC from manuf. to you isn't assured.


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## Jaded and Bitter (19/6/15)

Yob said:


> Ha.. who can say Stu..
> 
> I got a warning from a pretty respected distributor that the 15's were certainly not from the manufacturer and .. shall we say,.. uncontrolled.
> 
> Does NOT mean that all 15g sachets making the rounds are not going to make beer.. just QC from manuf. to you isn't assured.


So the same deal as all the other LHBS who repackage in small plastic bags and charge the same price (or $7 per 11g in my case).


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## Yob (20/6/15)

up to you, I wont use them though.. I like a bit more control over the yeast I use

if you dont mind uncontrolled process, go for it..


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## Blind Dog (20/6/15)

love the move to melbourne and looking forward to the next MB meet ( please tell me if I'm badly mistaken in believing it's next wednesday), but keg king being 15 min away are a world of unexpected slights and sorry disappointments. Went few weekends ago for CO2, sacks of malt, hops etc. had about $300 in goods ordered, asked for 500g of roast malt and they told me they add $2 processing fee for less than 2kg. With $300 of goods ordered? F*** off. Walked out.

No affiliation to anyone, but my advice is stick to your LHBS that's a member here as they actually give a f&&ok beautiful service every time from full pint, hop dealz, barleyman, craftbrewer, CheekyPeak, grain and grape and national home brew (not tried the others). As much as it pains me, SWMBO is right and I'm an idiot for trying elsewhere. Live and learn I guess

This is the rant thread right?


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## wide eyed and legless (20/6/15)

I go into KK, but it is advisable to go in with cash and get the cash discount, you would have been well in front then Blind Dog, getting back on topic I have in the past bought the 250gram packs from KK and divided it myself but I have also bought their 15 gram packs which they have been selling for a couple of years now, never had a problem and I think if Safale had a problem with what KK is doing they would have done something about it by now.

Safale would know that KK is repackaging their yeast and using their logo even if they didn't keep an eye on their website some other retailer would have been on the phone to dob them in.


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## Yob (20/6/15)

I assume I'll win the lotto this week and buy an island off the coast of Brazil..

Safale sell in 500g bricks so I also assume the practice is known but doesn't mean I'm comfortable using yeast split like that.


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## Blind Dog (20/6/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I go into KK, but it is advisable to go in with cash and get the cash discount, you would have been well in front then Blind Dog, getting back on topic I have in the past bought the 250gram packs from KK and divided it myself but I have also bought their 15 gram packs which they have been selling for a couple of years now, never had a problem and I think if Safale had a problem with what KK is doing they would have done something about it by now.


Should just be a 'morning after' button on here to delete my previous evenings stupid ramblings


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## wide eyed and legless (20/6/15)

I would think that we would have to assume that Safale does not act over here in an official capacity and there is just a distributer taking care of business, if that is the case then it well may be a different story if head office found out.


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## Spiesy (21/6/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would think that we would have to assume that Safale does not act over here in an official capacity and there is just a distributer taking care of business, if that is the case then it well may be a different story if head office found out.


I get the feeling that the percentage of homebrew business for the local distributor is much smaller than the percentage of business derived from commercial breweries. It may not even be on their radar.


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## wide eyed and legless (21/6/15)

In the UK it is,(was) Safale stopped the HB stores repackaging the yeast, that's why I assume that the distributor may think it's ok whereas the manufacturer wouldn't be in agreeance.


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## Yob (21/6/15)

The practice is not endorsed by safale.

The manufacturer goes through rigorous QC to get it to the end user with defined criteria. 

I sincerely doubt ANY repackager gives 2 shits about the environment they are Re packaged in.

Repackaged yeast? YMMV


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## DU99 (21/6/15)

:icon_offtopic: what the yeast that craftbrewer sells in twin packs


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## Yob (23/6/15)

**** all this, just emailed Safale to get their word on it, lets see what floats.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (23/6/15)

Its not only QA/QC processes but the fact they are package in a protective atmosphere to preserve longer, so introducing normal air cant be good for storage even if it is vacuum sealed (havent seen the repackaged types).

Edit: sorry Yob realised you already mentioned the protective atmosphere packaging =D


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/15)

Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.



Fuckit...Just throw that shit in there


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## manticle (24/6/15)

At what point did you think the topic was about rehydration vs not stu?


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/15)

manticle said:


> At what point did you think the topic was about rehydration vs not stu?


A thread that stays on topic....NEVER


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## sponge (24/6/15)

Isn't every thread just a yeast hydration debate in the making..?


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## Camo6 (24/6/15)

Blues Brothers was an awesome movie. Blues Brothers 2000 not so much. Sometimes one should rest on one's laurels.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/6/15)

sponge said:


> Isn't every thread just a yeast hydration debate in the making..?


Sure is brother


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## Markbeer (27/6/15)

I hope Craftbrewer continues to repackage.

Swiss lager and K97 are normally only available in 500g blocks.


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## Yob (29/6/15)

Let's put this to bed.. From Fermentis 

Hi

Fermentis packages its products only in 11.5g/500g/10 Kg under specific conditions to guaranty optimal results when pitching wort. 
The 15g packaging is not our product.
Fermentis makes no guaranty on the contents of the 15g packets labelled as US05, its quality and the packaging conditions.


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## Beak (29/6/15)

good work yob! im a person who likes his shit correct. I hate companys that take a product and repack it. And claim it as their own. Sure enough, it mayb from the same company.but i like the orignal packinging to say its straight from the factory and direct to the client! :beerdrink:


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## Feldon (30/6/15)

From http://www.findlaw.com.au/faqs/1126/what-is-passing-off.aspx

*Q: What is passing off?*
The tort of passing off applies where there is a representation that a person’s goods or services are those of someone else. To establish passing off, the plaintiff must prove a misrepresentation made by a trader in the course of trade to prospective customers or consumers that is intended to injure the plaintiff's business or goodwill and that caused actual damage to the plaintiff. The misrepresentation can be about the name of the product or the image that is presented by the product. The tort of passing off is not confined to the traditional concepts of trade names and trademarks. It includes such things as slogans and visual images where they have become part of the goodwill or reputation of the product.

The Trade Practices Act creates a statutory tort that can be used in addition to, or in substitution for, the common law tort of passing off. The Act prohibits deceptive or misleading conduct by a corporation. It is only necessary to prove that the conduct occurred in the course of trade and commerce, and that it is misleading or deceptive, or likely to mislead or deceive.


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

What is the difference between re packing yeast and re packing hops? (From a legal standpoint) Or are we all going to have to buy one of those big hop farm labelled boxes of hops to remain above board?


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## Camo6 (30/6/15)

Do KK (I believe this is what the other linked thread was based on) actually repackage in us05 styled packaging? I'd always thought they used vacuum sealed silver bags with white labels and it was just their website that showed the bigger packets. Can't see why Fermentis would be too concerned about someone buying in bulk and breaking it down for sale. I know I'd prefer mine sealed straight from the manufacturer but I have used KK us05 from time to time.


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## Yob (30/6/15)

@ GalBrew, QC I imagine to a large degree. 

Hops is a different ball game, you are either adding in a boil or when there is a healthy population of yeast/alcohol already present making ot unlikely to be the cause of contamination.

Didn't see specific retailers named cam, but I'll take your word for it.


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

Yob, I agree from a QC point of view. You can't guarantee the product complies with its specs once you open the pack. Just more so from a legal/ethical standpoint that some people seem to have quibbles with.


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## Camo6 (30/6/15)

The thread linked in the first few posts shows a pic from KK's website showing a packet of us05 with "15% bigger" labelled on it. I'm assuming it's just a graphic representation but wondering if anyone has actually bought replicated Fermentis packaging? I imagine that would be a no no.


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## Yob (30/6/15)

ah, didnt see that, must have been busy pontificating


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## Camo6 (30/6/15)

Yob said:


> ah, didnt see that, must have been busy pontificating


At 6:30 in the morning? You sick puppy!


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## zeggie (30/6/15)

Feldon said:


> From http://www.findlaw.com.au/faqs/1126/what-is-passing-off.aspx
> 
> *Q: What is passing off?*
> The tort of passing off applies where there is a representation that a person’s goods or services are those of someone else.
> ...


Only issue with your post is 
A) the Trade practices act was repealed in 2011, and 
B ) It's not passing off as the repackaged item IS fermentis. Whilst Fermentis may not support the practice of reselling, it isnt illegal...


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## wide eyed and legless (30/6/15)

It also shows that Safale Fermentis isn't that concerned about what is happening here, maybe it isn't a big enough market, otherwise they would have put a stop to the repackaging as they did in the UK.


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## Feldon (30/6/15)

zeggie said:


> Only issue with your post is
> A) the Trade practices act was repealed in 2011, and
> B ) It's not passing off as the repackaged item IS fermentis. Whilst Fermentis may not support the practice of reselling, it isnt illegal...


A new set of consumer laws were adopted ( Iforget the name now used) incorporating the old Trade Practices Act. So the laws against passing off still stand.

The image I posted in the other linked thread shows a retailer advertising 15g packets of yeast for sale using the images of the Fermentis trademark and packaging.

This is passing off. It is misleading the consumer.

Apart from consumer law, and while the sales team at Fermentis might not care, I'm sure the company's legal people in head office would be very interested in knowing what use is being made of their intellectual property (brand image etc).

EDIT: the new Act is called _Competition and Consumer Act 2010 _


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

How is breaking up a brick of yeast and repackaging it in smaller bags (labelled as such) 'passing off'? It would be one thing if it was bakers yeast being labelled as us-05 or whatever, but how is correctly labelling something 'passing off'? Where is the intent to mislead the consumer here?


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## wide eyed and legless (30/6/15)

I don't think it would even be worthwhile Fermentis speaking to a lawyer, they would just get an apology and the image removed,while I can see how it could be misleading I think it would be a grey area to get into, as it says now in a 15 gram pack does it mean a Safale Fermentis package or a different pack ie as KK put it out.
They aren't worried about it don't see why we should be except for the fact that dates could be changed, (as with repackaged hops)and as they retail in larger packs to HBS they would know somebody will be repackaging even if it is the end user.


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## Feldon (30/6/15)

GalBrew said:


> How is breaking up a brick of yeast and repackaging it in smaller bags (labelled as such) 'passing off'? It would be one thing if it was bakers yeast being labelled as us-05 or whatever, but how is correctly labelling something 'passing off'? Where is the intent to mislead the consumer here?


The retailer's web site advertises a factory pack of yeast of 15grams. It uses the image of the originating company to mislead consumers that the product carries with it the reputation and goodwill of that company's products.

What don't you get?


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## Feldon (30/6/15)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't think it would even be worthwhile Fermentis speaking to a lawyer, they would just get an apology and the image removed,while I can see how it could be misleading I think it would be a grey area to get into, as it says now in a 15 gram pack does it mean a Safale Fermentis package or a different pack ie as KK put it out.
> They aren't worried about it don't see why we should be except for the fact that dates could be changed, (as with repackaged hops)and as they retail in larger packs to HBS they would know somebody will be repackaging even if it is the end user.


Fermentis is a big company and would have lawyers on staff. They don't have to hire one to talk to.

The people Yob messaged (and good on you Yob) I suspect are just the sales team. They're are probably happy flogging kg packs of yeast to retailers and getting their commissions. However, It is the corporate area of Fermentis that needs to know, and they will pounce on it.


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

Feldon said:


> The retailer's web site advertises a factory pack of yeast of 15grams. It uses the image of the originating company to mislead consumers that the product carries with it the reputation and goodwill of that company's products.
> 
> What don't you get?


So if the pic on the website was of the repackaged yeast in the foil pack then you would be fine with it? It is still us-05 yeast in the pack after all. I think you would be pretty ignorant to see yeast (or anything for that matter) packed in a plain silver foil bag with the shop's label on it and think that it originated out of the factory.


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## Feldon (30/6/15)

GalBrew said:


> So if the pic on the website was of the repackaged yeast in the foil pack then you would be fine with it? It is still us-05 yeast in the pack after all. I think you would be pretty ignorant to see yeast (or anything for that matter) packed in a plain silver foil bag with the shop's label on it and think that it originated out of the factory.


If you are asking would I be fine with the retailer opening an 11.5 gram pack, topping it up to 15 grams with more of the same yeast, and resealing - no I wouldn't be fine with it. The retailer has degraded the product by opening it to atmosphere.I should be confident when I buy Fermentis yeast that it hasn't been opened since it left the factory.

Regarding you're other point, the retailer is offering to sell Fermentis yeast through online sales by using this image:

http://kegking.com.au/yeast/fermentis-safale-us-05-yeast-15g.html

So, let's say I make the online purchase based of the website information and get delivered a silver foil pack of repackaged yeast. I have been misled, and the retailer is in breach of Australian consumer law.

Also note that advertising that _might _mislead is illegal, even if no sales are made. The intent possibility to mislead is just as illegal as the act of misleading, regardless of intent.

Edit: clarified 'intent'.


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

Feldon said:


> If you are asking would I be fine with the retailer opening an 11.5 gram pack, topping it up to 15 grams with more of the same yeast, and resealing - no I wouldn't be fine with it. The retailer has degraded the product by opening it to atmosphere.I should be confident when I buy Fermentis yeast that it hasn't been opened since it left the factory.


I agree, if that was to occur then that is uncool. What does happen is that a brick of yeast is split into 15g aliquots and then sealed in foil bags. While I will concede the point about the website photo (that is not an accurate representation of reality), I personally don't see the problem with this practice, in effect it is identical to what occurs with hops and there are multiple retailers around who do this. So long as the consumer is aware of this (which could be better explained on the website) and doesn't care, what is the problem?

If you don't want to buy repackaged yeast that is fine, don't. But how far do we want to go with this? Homebrew shops buy plenty of stuff in bulk and split them up for retail sale such as: hops, yeast brewing sugars, LDME, grain, oak chips, kettle finings etc. It has been going on for years, why the big shitstorm over this in particular? I think people should have a choice if they wish to buy products in this fashion for a discount or not.


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## Feldon (30/6/15)

Nothing wrong with selling repackaged yeast, hops, condoms, whatever. No law against that.

Just don't mislead consumers into thinking that they are buying something that the product is not (in this case factory packaged Fermentis yeast). If you do you are breaking the law.

Show me a hops retailer who sells small volume product packs purporting to be packaged by the mega company from which the hops were sourced.

Our consumer laws are there to protect us all from dodgy shopkeepers and should be supported by all thinking Australians.


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## Yob (30/6/15)

they arent saying "you cant repackage the bricks"

its

"you cant repackage the bricks and call it US05" fair enough, its their *brand name* at stake.

_*hypothetical scenario.*_.. it's a windy day and a whole bunch of lacto comes in from the grains being split not far away and settles on the brick as it's being split and a dozen people are up in arms about it because all of their brews are infected, they kick up a stink, make a noise on the net and then a whole bunch of people stop buying US05 as a result.. word spreads.. bad news spreads like fire. *BUT!! *

_^^ This hasn't happened, just throwing a hypothetical ^^_

What if its a plain foil, with "ale Yeast" stamped on it.. Buyer knows what he/she is getting and accepts the results.. gets the infection and says "Next time Im getting a better yeast"... or not, doesnt matter, the *Manufacturers product *(with all the QA assurances we are given) is protected. Firstly by the brand name not appearing on the packaging and secondly by the fact that the customer knew the risks. 

It'd be a good thing if all re packaged yeast said so on the packet, we know what's going on but Mr Jo Noob doesnt, just gets the cheapest yeast and is off on the learning curve.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/6/15)

Yob said:


> they arent saying "you cant repackage the bricks"
> 
> its
> 
> ...


Did they actually say that the yeast cannot be repackaged and called US05?


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## Yob (30/6/15)

Yessir

"requested to cease any re-pack and re-sale activity under Fermentis brand"


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## wide eyed and legless (30/6/15)

Fermentis is a small business in the group of a large family business (Lesaffre Group) who have their fingers in many pies, I don't know who Yob emailed whether it be the Lesaffre Group or the agent here in Australia, and if those repackaging can't can't call the yeast US05 (it is a registered trademark) then why not just call it American Ale Yeast, problem solved, that is if Lesaffre object to the repackaging.


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

Yob said:


> "requested to cease any re-pack and re-sale activity under Fermentis *brand*"


With reference to the way hops are repackaged, varieties like Galaxy and Amarillo are brand names and trademarks. Breaking up bales of these hops and re packaging is in my eyes the same as the yeast, where there are no assurances on the QC of the product. Re packaged hops have also been exposed to the atmosphere and have undergone some level of oxidation in the packaging process (not that I care). Additionally who is to say that some unscrupulous operators aren't 'cutting' their high demand varieties with something else, potentially damaging the good name of a particular trademark?

Just saying, not implying that this actually occurs.


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## Yob (30/6/15)

As said previously, the way you use Hops differs significantly than yeast, risks etc are much more mitigated 

Who can say what unscrupulous people do eh? I can only speak from my own experience when I say that I personally never gave much thought to re packaging yeast, was asked early on in the piece but dismissed it fro a risk to client point of view.

Yeast is VERY different to Hops


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

Yob said:


> Yeast is VERY different to Hops


Of course they are very different, but that isn't what we are talking about any more is it? We are talking about potential damage to specific brands through poor product handling and potential breaches of consumer law. The same thing can be said about growler fills too right? a third party re-packaging a branded product and letting it out into the public without any input from the producer. Anyway I've had enough of this one, the point I was trying to make is that we are all getting sand in our collective vaginas over what one retailer does with yeast, when shit like this happens all the time, everywhere with everything and no one bats an eyelid. I could understand if this repackaged yeast was ruining people's beer en masse, but has anyone ever had an issue with it?


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## Yob (30/6/15)

Yes.. The manufacturer..


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

Yob said:


> Yes.. The manufacturer..


A. That's not what I meant.

B. I'll just go and get a box of tissues so I can weep for Fermentis and the wrongs the world has brought upon them.


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## manticle (30/6/15)

GalBrew said:


> With reference to the way hops are repackaged, varieties like Galaxy and Amarillo are brand names and trademarks. Breaking up bales of these hops and re packaging is in my eyes the same as the yeast, where there are no assurances on the QC of the product. Re packaged hops have also been exposed to the atmosphere and have undergone some level of oxidation in the packaging process (not that I care). Additionally who is to say that some unscrupulous operators aren't 'cutting' their high demand varieties with something else, potentially damaging the good name of a particular trademark?
> 
> Just saying, not implying that this actually occurs.


Not even remotely the same. Aside from the fact that amarillo is a patented hop variety and various distributors are authorised to onsell those to retailers, it's the assumption that when you see fermentis branded labels, you have the right to expect fermentis packing standards have been met because yeast is a micro-organism. They even supply in their pdfs an expected level of various other microorganisms for each strain - something made totally redundant if someone else opens then repacks.

Might have a point if retailer A bought amarillo from wholesaler B, made their own labels with wholesaler B logo and font copied on but that's no what we're looking at. Wholesaler in this case is evidently unhappy with the practice so I'm not sure why you think it's ok.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/6/15)

GalBrew said:


> Additionally who is to say that some unscrupulous operators aren't 'cutting' their high demand varieties with something else, potentially damaging the good name of a particular trademark?
> 
> Just saying, not implying that this actually occurs.


I think Galbrew has a point right there manticle, also who is to say that the dates are fair dinkum, as for the repackaging of the Fermentis, it would be easy for them to stop the practice if they were concerned, and as KK also put there logo on the packaging we all would know that it has been repackaged, apart from maybe the 'new starters'


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/6/15)

They be cutting their yeast with dried vegemite


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## GalBrew (30/6/15)

manticle said:


> Not even remotely the same. Aside from the fact that amarillo is a patented hop variety and various distributors are authorised to onsell those to retailers


How is that even relevant to this discussion? Who distributes the hop is irrelevant. Who the buys bulk amounts of Amarillo and repackages it for homebrewers is what I am talking about. Amarillo is a
Trademarked brand that can be damaged like anything. Also like galaxy which is owned by HPA, if I got a shit bag of hops labelled with galaxy that had been mishandled by a retailer or cut with an inferior hop, I may come to the conclusion that Galaxy is a rubbish hop and so are HPA. Explain to me how that is different to the yeast situation? Or the growler example? 

Also I don't give a shit who does what to yeast or hops or whatever and on sells it. Again the point I am trying to make is that people are getting awfully uptight about yeast and not the countless other examples listed. Do you think that loose grain sitting in a bin in some homebrew shop for a year will still match its spec sheet? Or the LME from a bulk drum that has been split and re-labelled in a plastic bucket is how the manufacturer intended?


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/6/15)

Liquid yeast in sealed activator packs...FTW


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## manticle (30/6/15)

For once I agree with stu.


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## manticle (30/6/15)

The reason it differs galbrew is because it's yeast - micro-organisms that are prone to being outnumbered by other microorganisms.
Microorganisms added to cold side in an environment where we want them to thrive while keeping out other organisms.
I don't really care either as I don't use dried yeast but it is very different to those other things you mention.
Grain is not isolated and packed in a lab.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/6/15)

manticle said:


> For once I agree with stu.


And lets keep it that way :lol:


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## manticle (30/6/15)

Ok. Do you like beer?


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## Bridges (30/6/15)

Beak said:


> gday alll just wondering why yeast packs have increased up to 15g. my mate reckons they were around the 11g mark. any suggestions?


As some HBS are repacking yeast. 
Are we done here now or what?


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## zeggie (30/6/15)

Feldon said:


> EDIT: the new Act is called _Competition and Consumer Act 2010 _


Haha, thanks for the legal lesson. I'm well aware of the CCA as I'm in the industry. Was just making you aware it's bad form to quote law that is repealed. I'm glad you managed to google the latest Act.

Without a lengthy legal explanation that will bore everyone to tears, Kegking are not 'passing off' their product. It is indeed Fermentis yeast in the packages and they are within their rights to buy in bulk, split and sell the product same as many different industries.


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## Feldon (1/7/15)

zeggie said:


> Haha, thanks for the legal lesson. I'm well aware of the CCA as I'm in the industry. Was just making you aware it's bad form to quote law that is repealed. I'm glad you managed to google the latest Act.
> 
> Without a lengthy legal explanation that will bore everyone to tears, Kegking are not 'passing off' their product. It is indeed Fermentis yeast in the packages and they are within their rights to buy in bulk, split and sell the product same as many different industries.


Its bad form to not read the postings in this thread before replying. We're not arguing whether or not its Fermentis yeast. Its passing it off as factory packed Fermentis yeast that is in question.

It is passing off. Bit like you passing yourself off as some legal expert.


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## zarniwoop (1/7/15)

I can't comment from a legal point of view (not being a lawyer and such like...) but I deal with this several times a year for the multinational I work for. We produce a technical product that is used to manufacture end products that are sold to the general market, as our brand name is well known for quality etc a lot of our customers are quite keen to add our logo to their packaging.

The problem is that if there is an issue with the end product then everyone will assume the failure is due to our product as it's the main component in the finished product. We don't like this obviously so we have a very rigid process for allowing our customers to use our logo (product assessment, company assessment etc etc). If a customer goes ahead and uses our logo without permission then it goes all legal post the cease and desist stuff, of course the real risk is that they label it with our logo and put something of lower quality inside (doesn't really happen in Aus so far but well known O/S). It's really about the branding and reputation that's at stake, if they want to use our product in something that's been badly built or designed we don't care provided they don't use our logo on it.

I'd have to say that if I worked for Fermentis I'd be very unhappy with our logo etc being used on something as delicate as yeast that had been repackaged by anyone other than us. I've been in the manufacturing game for a long time and generally people will stuff it up. It's about brand reputation.


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## wambesi (1/7/15)

Seeing as there is a strong opposition to this business carrying out this practice - has anyone actually got in contact with them to say something along the lines of "I bought this and it looked like a factory sealed product but isn't"?

If the issue is indeed that they're advertising factory sealed official packages but sending out repackaged bags then you simply did not receive what you purchased and pretty sure you'll be covered under the consumer laws. Sometimes we just need to call the people involved - as much as we don't like doing that these days.

We all know some HBS do this, but most usually label it American Ale Yeast or something similar as mentioned above, but even if it had the manufacturer name and product name on it I don't see a problem as you can see it is repackaged - but as I said above, if they're using a false image then that's not so good. If a bunch of people rang in to complain I'm sure they'd do something about it.

On the other hand, I have no problem with repackaging of yeast and have used it with no problems, so much so I just split two bricks myself at home. But, that doesn't seem to be the issue here.

Just my thoughts.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/7/15)

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that KK are not trying to pass off any of their repackaged yeasts,as Safale Fermentis packaged yeasts, the discussion is about the legality and the environment in which the yeast is repackaged.
As SF has not taken any steps to halt the practice (as yet) shows they are not overly concerned, so the only discussion is the health of the yeast after repackaging, we have a split in the AHB community of those who will use repackaged yeast and those which will not. 
I for one is with wambesi and have repackaged yeast my self as too I suspect a few others would do also, and have bought the repackaged yeast and not had a problem.


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## Danwood (1/7/15)

Personally, I would definitely put the splitting of yeast by a middle man in a different category than grain, hops etc.

Yeast has a potential to completely ruin an otherwise good beer.

Brew 3 'identical' batches, one with potentially infected yeast, another with cheap base malt passed off as maris otter (say), and the third with quality hops cut with cheaper/older hops.

They will all likely turn out beers which are fine, to varying degrees. Even the yeast one.

But, I'd rather not put that 'question mark' on a beer I'd just spent 6 hours making, by using re-packaged yeast.

If a pack of yeast is infected during splitting, it was not done intentionally, just through lack of proper practices.

If grain or hops are cut with inferior substitutes, it is done intentionally, by unscrupulous retailers.

Legally the same, perhaps. But from a brewing perspective, they are entirely different situations in my mind.


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## GalBrew (1/7/15)

Danwood said:


> Personally, I would definitely put the splitting of yeast by a middle man in a different category than grain, hops etc.
> 
> Yeast has a potential to completely ruin an otherwise good beer.
> 
> ...


FFS, I only brought those examples up in the context of the legality of product splitting by homebrew stores, not how it may or may not negatively impact the quality of a beer.


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## Bridges (1/7/15)

Doesn't make it clear it's repackaged.


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## Camo6 (1/7/15)

At least the 15gm packs don't need to be rehydrated.


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## Danwood (1/7/15)

GalBrew said:


> ....how it may or may not negatively impact the quality of a beer.


Thanks. This is what I took away from that post.


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## Blind Dog (1/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> At least the 15gm packs don't need to be rehydrated.


yes they do, just with 30% more water of the generic non-trademarked variety


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## wide eyed and legless (1/7/15)

Bridges said:


> ret2515-fermentis-safale-us-05-yeast-15g.jpg
> 
> Doesn't make it clear it's repackaged.


No its not the best advertisement, and they should think about changing it, but panzerd 18 mentioned it was repackaged early on in the thread


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## zeggie (1/7/15)

Feldon said:


> Its bad form to not read the postings in this thread before replying. We're not arguing whether or not its Fermentis yeast. Its passing it off as factory packed Fermentis yeast that is in question.
> 
> It is passing off. Bit like you passing yourself off as some legal expert.


Haha, no need to get your back up. Simply pointing out the TPA is repealed. Also for your info if you google the CCA you'll actually *not* find the words "passing off" anywhere in it. There is a reason for that - since I'm 'passing off' as a 'legal expert' in your opinion, I'll let you work out why it's not in the CCA for yourself.

Kegking are not passing off. "factory packed" hasn't anything to do with elements required.
IF they were (which they are not), it would set a dangerous precedent and would mean your local coffee shop wouldn't be able to buy coffee beans in bulk, sell them to customers, brew them for customers, and advertise the source/brand of their beans wouldn't it? Have a great day!


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## Beak (2/7/15)

So at the end of the day..... Is 15 grams of yeast better than 11grams? The whole reason i started this thread, was that with the beer that we were brewing we were getting really yeasty crap leftover in our kegs. After tipping them out.
And really tarty/lemon flavour in our brews.
So i went on a problem solving mission. One of the things i thought id tick off was the yeast. Hence the question! After long discussions with my mate we worked out we are over hopping our brews. also a few other probs. But after months of thought and shit beer, we have hit the holy grail!! A hop theif 7 clone. piss easy clone i must say.
With 15grams of yeast too! :beerbang:
I must say one thing, kegking has been our go to shop for everything to get us brewing all grain. With out em, i think i wouldnt be brewing all grain. There shop is like a toy shop for me! too many kegs later and not enough beer to fill em . but always good grain and service. So does it really matter weather its 15g or 11g?

ps kegkings hop spiders are really good  I personally think they fixed our problems :super: hop socks tied to tight are shit.
Cheers all!!


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## Camo6 (2/7/15)

My God man! Can't you just let it die already!! ;-)


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## manticle (2/7/15)

I found an onion in the corner.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/7/15)

Beak said:


> So at the end of the day..... Is 15 grams of yeast better than 11grams? T


Depends on if you re-hydrate or not..........mmmm....maybe they made 15gm packs to suit one method .....and the 11gm packs for the other method


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## Topher (3/7/15)

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons (or the kittens amongst the airlocks.....the gladwrap amongst the fermenter lids....the sprinklers amongst the rehydraters amongst the startermakers). What about s189? Not available in homebrew packs from fermentis, but several retailers supply it repackaged. 

Is this dodgy or helpful? And should i buy the 24g oacks or the 15g?


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## manticle (3/7/15)

It's not really about the repacking per se - I think Feldon's link on page 1 explains the issue better.


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