# Wort Chiller Pond Pump Idea



## chrisluki (27/10/15)

I cant remember where i saw the idea, but it sounded pretty cool and i have splashed out to buy the bits.

Essentially, to speed up my wort chilling so that I can do a school night brew and waste less water, I am going to rig up a chilled water source and recirculating pump to my immersion chiller.

For the first few minute of my chill, when its pretty easy to get the temp down, i will run my usual garden hose through the chilling coil and collect the water for cleaning.

Then I plan to switch over to my secondary cooling where chilled water will be pumped through from a big eski via a recirculating pond pump. The water will be chilled with frozen coke cans filled with water (40 or so) and pumped through the coil and back into the eski.

I am thinking that this will get me to my target temp more quickly than my usual 30 - 40 minutes of tap water. Once done, i simply put all the cans back into my beer freezer for next time.

Thoughts? Anyone doing something similar?

Cheers

Chris


----------



## real_beer (27/10/15)

Hi,

That'll work.

The very best way to have lines chilled using ice is how the old jockey boxes work. The ice sits on the plate and as the heat and cold is transferred between the plate and ice the melted ice water drains away off the plate and out the drain plug.


----------



## chrisluki (27/10/15)

real_beer said:


> Hi,
> 
> That'll work.
> 
> The very best way to have lines chilled using ice is how the old jockey boxes work. The ice sits on the plate and as the heat and cold is transferred between the plate and ice the melted ice water drains away off the plate and out the drain plug.


Thanks for that!!!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (27/10/15)

MAN

There are some truly epic topics on the very subject.....


Grab a beer my friend and hit the AHB search button. :super:


----------



## chrisluki (27/10/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> MAN
> 
> There are some truly epic topics on the very subject.....
> 
> ...


Maybe i found it here then?

Wherever i found the idea...the pump, the coil and the tubing is all set and ready to go for my next brew...and i have a beer freezer full of cans to chill the water down.

Cheers


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (27/10/15)

Basically, you are on the right track


----------



## welly2 (27/10/15)

Yeah, I've dabbled with this method and it works a treat. I cool the wort using tap water down as much as I can with the rather tepid water up here (get down to about 35-40c) and then switch tubing over to an esky full of ice that I recirculate though. That brings the wort down to pitching temperature in about 10 minutes or less. It works a beauty.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (27/10/15)

The bonus is the using he tap first you will get a few minutes of hot water to wash your mash tun out with and rinse off split wort


Note: Buy some welding gloves cause that water comes out F*cking hot


----------



## Cervantes (27/10/15)

I used to do this, but returning the cooling water to the iced water bucket soon warms it up.

Now I have a second immersion chiller that sits in a bucket of iced water. The hose from the tap goes to this first and reduces the temperature of the tap water before it goes into the immersion chiller in the wort.

I still collect the first runnings for cleaning, but the rest goes on to the garden.

I find this a lot more effective than pumping the iced water through a single immersion chiller as the iced water stays iced water for the duration of the chilling.

Just my 2 cents...............

Edit: Punctuation.


----------



## chrisluki (28/10/15)

Cervantes said:


> I used to do this, but returning the cooling water to the iced water bucket soon warms it up.
> 
> Now I have a second immersion chiller that sits in a bucket of iced water. The hose from the tap goes to this first and reduces the temperature of the tap water before it goes into the immersion chiller in the wort.
> 
> ...


Double immersion...i like this!


----------



## oglennyboy (28/10/15)

I was doing the same thing, but using a spare 30L fermenter to hold the cold water & pond pump. Through a 25ft (I think? pretty damn long!) coil the flow rate is not huge, less than a tap on full bore, maybe 5-7 litres/min? Found that with Tas water temps of about 12 degrees that it wasn't worth the hassle of juggling ice blocks, and a simple change-out of about half the water after 10mins meant I was down to about 30 degrees in another 15-20mins. Pull the coil, a little whirlpool, then pop the lid on for a few hours to clear right up. This bit is the risky part I think, letting it sit around in the urn (BIAB only).
Have just started making a souped up version, using a 220 litre poly drum and a cheapo house pressure pump off ebay. Total cost plus fittings of $70, and it fairly belts the water through. 220 litres of cold water takes a lot longer to be warmed appreciably, I get down to pitching temp in about 10mins flat. But when there's a leak.... oh man....
cheers!


----------



## chrisluki (2/11/15)

Oh geez, this idea of mine failed so miserably at the weekend...

Firstly the pump wasn't strong enough to pump more than a dribble through the hose into the immersion chiller, so i had to revert back to water from the tap.

I had also used different (cheaper) hose to connect to my chiller which burst twice to dilute my beer slightly! Luckily my son was on hand to turn the tap off as i scrambled to spray the water anywhere but my beer...resulting in a very flooded garage floor!


Anyway I was thinking that maybe i could rig up something whereby i could have a coil (or two) of garden hose in my 60l eski, filled with ice and water, and create some kind of ghetto refrigeration system that fed colder water into my immersion chiller.

Has anyone been successful with such a system?


----------



## Bribie G (2/11/15)

I'd guess the garden hose would be more of an insulator than a conductor of heat (as copper is).

ed: Lyall from QLD who used to take out the lager and pilsner medals in the Nationals used to freeze 2L ice cream tubs full of water in his chest freezer and use two Bunnings handipails full of them to chill a brew. I sat in on a brew day at his place and it took him 10 minutes to get down to pitching temperature.

I also have an immersion coil and pond pump if anyone interested, $60 the lot, never used, but would be a bastard to post. I'm happy with no chilling. (maybe that should be in the "what did you buy last night while pissed" thread :lol: )

Northern Rivers NSW.


----------



## chrisluki (2/11/15)

Ahh...so it wouldn't chill down the water inside it?


----------



## MaltyHops (2/11/15)

chrisluki said:


> Anyway I was thinking that maybe i could rig up something whereby i could have a coil (or two) of garden hose in my 60l eski, filled with ice and water, and create some kind of ghetto refrigeration system that fed colder water into my immersion chiller.
> 
> Has anyone been successful with such a system?


If the coil in your esky was copper, would work better - maybe Bribie's immersion coil might fit? Or just get some copper tubing from somewhere and bend it like Beckham yourself.


----------



## Chris7 (2/11/15)

chrisluki said:


> Oh geez, this idea of mine failed so miserably at the weekend...
> 
> Firstly the pump wasn't strong enough to pump more than a dribble through the hose into the immersion chiller, so i had to revert back to water from the tap.
> 
> ...


I used recirculating ice water through a plate chiller with excellent results. Normally comes out 12-14c. I know it's not quite the same, but recirculating ice water can be awesome.


----------



## huez (2/11/15)

I recirc ice water through a plate chiller like chris7. 15litres of water in an old fermenter with a pond pump. Add a bag of ice as it melts. Depending on flow rate and how much valve fiddling i can be bothered to do i usually get within a degree or 2 of my pitching temp in one pass into the fermenter. I can see you burning through bags of ice if you are just using an immersion chiller, you'd want to have a decent whirlpool going at the same time.


----------



## oglennyboy (2/11/15)

The pond pumps don't like a lot of head loss, I run mine with the water sitting at the same level, so losses are limited to line only. Its still a bit though given about 10m of half inch pipe means there's only 5-7 or so litres/min. Put the bucket on the floor so the lift is 1m or so and that flow drops to about 3 L/min.
I used crappy pvc pipe which gets soft, gotta watch it doesn't crimp or slide off 
Other than that, its not too bad.
cheers!


----------



## Eagleburger (2/11/15)

I tried something similar. Two counter flow chillers in series. first tap water, second chilled water from fermenting freezer. It worked well, got wort from 90degC to 28degC to 12degC. Was a bit of extra work etc. Now just use a plate chiller with tap water and put the 22degC wort in the fermenting freezer for the night and pitch in the morning. 50L of wort is chilled in 10 minutes and I got hot water for the clean.

I was given a chilling unit and may revisit wort chilling again. First up will be fermenting temp control.

BTW I usually brew at night after work.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/11/15)

Coil formed chillers are actually the WORST form to use. They chill the wort close to the coil but the rest remains hot. They may look pretty but are terribly inefficient 

Next time you use your coil grab your thermometer and measure the temp near the coil and then in the middle. Even though the output of the coil will be cold the centre of the kettle will still be very hot

The best chiller looks like a random ball of tube, bit like a bowl of spaghetti. 

If you are a die hard coil chiller then its best to stir or agitate your wort to mix it up get it to cool quicker, but this creates a problem of stirring up all the trub

I worked out very early on just how bad a straight coil was and built the ugliest mother of a randomly betd tube thing you ever did see, but it chilled the wort in about 1/3 the time as a straight coil


Dont believe me....make one and see for yourself 

And also...just use water straight from the tap for the initial temp drop, it will drop pretty quick, then use the ice bucket to drop the last 15-20*. That way you dont need so much ice


----------



## blotto (2/11/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And also...just use water straight from the tap for the initial temp drop, it will drop pretty quick, then use the ice bucket to drop the last 15-20*. That way you dont need so much ice


This is what I do, I only need 2-3 frozen milk bottles of water and every ice pack and baby teether I can find in the freezer  I have hot tap water as well so only goes down to mid 20's with tap water.


----------



## Mikeyr (2/11/15)

I tried using a bilge pump, flow was excellent but in the end have a rig that now puts the warmed water into the pool! 

Ice is basically energy and our coal power uses a huge amount of water and is poor efficiency. Some bright spark can probably work out the best nett result. 

If you're not in a water poor area, garden/pool/pond is a good idea, or wash the car, did that once, nice warm water sure cuts the dirt fast.


----------



## chrisluki (3/11/15)

What if i used a combo of my current immersion chiller and tap water, with a stainless ice bucket sitting in the middle?

If i could get an ice bucket like this, i could fill it with large iceblocks...i just need to measure the inside diameter of my immersion chiller to make sure it fits in there.





http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wine-Bucket-Chiller-Holder-Satin-Finished-Stainless-Steel-215mm-/300927346728?hash=item4610aae828:g:-lYAAMXQgJhTeYrg


----------



## oglennyboy (3/11/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Coil formed chillers are actually the WORST form to use. They chill the wort close to the coil but the rest remains hot. They may look pretty but are terribly inefficient
> 
> Next time you use your coil grab your thermometer and measure the temp near the coil and then in the middle. Even though the output of the coil will be cold the centre of the kettle will still be very hot
> 
> ...


Sorry for the hi-jack Chris!
DBStu, I remember seeing a pic of your immersion bird's nest and the question I forgot to ask at the time was.... there's not really going to be a trub cone form due to the massive turbulence on whirlpooling, and if you pull the coil out it's going to stir everything up, so do you do anything different? Or once you hit pitching temps you just drop it straight into the fermenter? I'm not fussed about cold break, have taken to pulling most of it across anyway (some nice experimental posts on these boards gave me some comfort), but I still try to keep the hot break back.

Chris, I like the idea of the ice bucket in the middle of the coil, seems like it should work. I imagine the same heat transfer inefficiencies as with the coil and wort would apply, in that you still have to keep the cold water moving so as to have maximum temp gradient at the bucket:wort interface.


----------



## chrisluki (3/11/15)

oglennyboy said:


> Sorry for the hi-jack Chris!
> DBStu, I remember seeing a pic of your immersion bird's nest and the question I forgot to ask at the time was.... there's not really going to be a trub cone form due to the massive turbulence on whirlpooling, and if you pull the coil out it's going to stir everything up, so do you do anything different? Or once you hit pitching temps you just drop it straight into the fermenter? I'm not fussed about cold break, have taken to pulling most of it across anyway (some nice experimental posts on these boards gave me some comfort), but I still try to keep the hot break back.
> 
> Chris, I like the idea of the ice bucket in the middle of the coil, seems like it should work. I imagine the same heat transfer inefficiencies as with the coil and wort would apply, in that you still have to keep the cold water moving so as to have maximum temp gradient at the bucket:wort interface.


No dramas mate.

Things would be so much simpler if i could afford a proper recirculating chiller!!!


----------



## Bribie G (3/11/15)

I've often wondered about the possibility of making a scale version of something like this, like they used to do back in the days when men wore trilby hats and women were hairy in all the right places .. B) B) it would be an excellent method of aeration as well.


----------



## chrisluki (3/11/15)

Bribie G said:


> I've often wondered about the possibility of making a scale version of something like this, like they used to do back in the days when men wore trilby hats and women were hairy in all the right places .. B) B) it would be an excellent method of aeration as well.


I am sure I have read about something similar this week?


----------



## TidalPete (3/11/15)

Invigorated by a gratifying Melbourne Cup day & Bribie's post I will give my 2-cents.  

Over many years I've done, in the following order, chilling with ice, copper immersion chilling, 30-plate chilling & am now back to immersion chilling again but using a ss immersion chiller for the following reasons:-

Ice chilling is obvious (in the bath, whatever), copper chiller worked well with my young (ATT) HERMS but was a bastard to keep clean externally & so progressed to a 30-plate ss chiller which worked magnificently until the day that I realised, being so close to the beach, my bore water was slowly but surely corroding the copper welding in the ss plate chiller with the unenviable results & so progressed to the final solution of the ss immersion chiller .

Cut a long story short, I run the salty bore water through the ss immersion chiller. Stop/progress according to my '0' chill additions then chill down as far as the bore water will take me (around 29/30 deg c in summer) then switch to a 1 x 2-litre ice cream container of frozen water sitting in just enough water to submerge the pond pump in a* tilted *esky until I reach equilibrium (usually around 19 deg c +/-).
This is fine for Ales. Lagers usually take another 2-litre frozen water addition if I want to bring the temp down lower.
Please note that *tilted* is good as you are barely covering the pond pump intake & thus need minimal water volume to keep the ice icing on as it were.

My 2-cents.

PS --- Please take it as read that ss immersion chillers work excellently in normal circumstances away from a salty environment.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/11/15)

oglennyboy said:


> Sorry for the hi-jack Chris!
> DBStu, I remember seeing a pic of your immersion bird's nest and the question I forgot to ask at the time was.... there's not really going to be a trub cone form due to the massive turbulence on whirlpooling, and if you pull the coil out it's going to stir everything up, so do you do anything different?


Obviously you cant whirlpool with a birds nest

Getting it chilled nicely will leave a nice layer of trub on the bottom of the kettle.

I always tilt the kettle by putting a chock under the tap side.

Once you have a nice chilled break you can drain off a fair bit of the remaining wort.

The trick is to be gentle. 

Once you pull the chiller out let it sit and settle before you drain the kettle

If you chill it right and let it settle you will end up with SFA wort left in the trub... B)


----------



## dannymars (3/11/15)

A simple thing I've found is that if you are whirlpooling and using an immersion chiller, make sure the whirlpool is going in the opposite direction to the water going through the chiller. Once I realised this, my chilling went much faster than before.


----------



## TidalPete (3/11/15)

I would positively agree with former posts that a 'birdsnest' immersion chiller configuration is a very much faster chilling alternative than the standard coil-formed immersion product we get online. :super:

Just saying.

Have No-chilled a couple of times OTY's & am still alive ATM. B)


----------



## roastinrich (3/11/15)

This old school one at De Halve Maan would have cooled a few thousand gallons.


----------



## Dips Me Lid (6/11/15)

Another trick to do is get a pedestal fan to blow air over your kettle while spraying the outside kettle surface with a water mist, helps to speed up the process, I also spray my burner stand as I find it retains a lot of heat energy.


----------

