# Sparging - How slow is "Slow"?



## MartinOC (8/11/13)

This is the third time I've tried to post this, so I'm pissed-off!

In response to recent posts & planning of my "new" brewery (I've had a 10-year hiaitus!), I've had this thought:

How slow do you need to go?

In these days of fully-modified malts, no unmalted adjuncts, recirculation (via HERMS/RIMS), full conversion & appropriately acidulated sparge water, why couldn't you do your run-off pretty bloody quickly & get your boil going ASAP?

The Little Brown Pumps available will deliver 8-12L/min, so why not run-off at the same rate (irrespective of whether it's gravity or pump-delivered)?

My initial thoughts have become somewhat confused by repeated attempts at posting & subsequent frustration, so forgive me if I appear narky &/or confused (yes, I HAVE been drinking - it's a Friday night!).

Your thoughts/contribution gratefully received.

Edit: 4TH TIME!!!


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## bum (8/11/13)

One thing to consider is that the speed you drain affects your grain bed. Fast drainage can promote channeling.

What's your sparge method? If you're batch sparging then you can pretty much just open her up and let her go. Fly sparging is a different matter due to wanting to manage the grain bed properly. I don't fly sparge though so I'll refrain from going into that further lest I cock it up.


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## MartinOC (8/11/13)

Yeah, Bum. Thanks for pulling me up on the details...My initial posts (x4!!) had all the parameters of my query, but it got lost in cyber-space.....

I've always fly-sparged, with water being sprayed uniformly over the grain bed with a rotating arm (it's what I learned years ago & unless I can be convinced otherwise, I don't see any reason to change, as it makes sense). To me, balancing inflow=outflow at WHATEVER outflow will work.

I used to use a Phil's sparge-arm (I guess I'm showing my age here?) with a gravity-feed, but I don't know if a LBP at higher flow-rates would make any difference?

I haven't tried the LBP through the Phil's jobbie (I think it might try to reach orbit @ 8-12L/min!).


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## TheWiggman (19/11/13)

I watched a video on YouTube of a brewer who was told to drag it out as long as possible, up to 3 hours. He then started questioning this and went to 2 hours, 1.5 etc. down to 45 mins and didn't notice any change in the final product and was still able to acheive the same gravities. This was for about a 100l system.
I'd love to hear from someone who can honestly say they've sparged too quickly and it affected their brew. Regardless, I do it slowly (30-40 mins) because it's just what I've heard. I'm able to do it a lot faster than that though.

I think this is one of those black arts. h34r:


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/11/13)

Mmmm....when I batch sparge I stir the grain bed up with the sparge water then let it sit for 10-15mins then drain. Never timed how long it takes, I just let gravity fo its thing. I try to get as much sugar rinsed out as possible without using to much water so I dont have to boil off as much.


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## MartinOC (19/11/13)

TheWiggman said:


> I watched a video on YouTube of a brewer who was told to drag it out as long as possible, up to 3 hours. He then started questioning this and went to 2 hours, 1.5 etc. down to 45 mins and didn't notice any change in the final product and was still able to acheive the same gravities. This was for about a 100l system.
> I'd love to hear from someone who can honestly say they've sparged too quickly and it affected their brew. Regardless, I do it slowly (30-40 mins) because it's just what I've heard. I'm able to do it a lot faster than that though.
> 
> I think this is one of those black arts. h34r:


Got a linky to that Youtube video? I'd be interested to see what he did.


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## Yob (19/11/13)

I still use gravity to sparge Martin, mainly because it'd be a major throttle back on any pump.. That and I set my system up with gravity in mind.. Gravity won't stop if the power go's out and is unlikely to break any time soon


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## TheWiggman (19/11/13)

http://youtu.be/vGQLuguoclg

Not too much detail, unfortunately you don't see the sparing method.


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## MartinOC (19/11/13)

Yeah, Yob. I've always used gravity, but with these new-fangled pumpy-thinggies available, I've been considering exploring other opportunities.

Perhaps I'm over-thinking this whole beer-making thing after so long? Gravity was Soooooo last century!

Stop thinking, Martin......stop thinking....just....STOP!!!


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/11/13)

Not much point in trying to suck out the wort with a pump. All sorts of things can affect sparge rate.


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## law-of-ohms (19/11/13)

and how clear is "clear"

Shouldn't the clarity of the wort determine the run off rate? (newbie asking here)


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## MartinOC (19/11/13)

Not thinking to suck-out with a pump ('though I have considered it, albeit slowly). I've had so many stuck sparges over the years, I'm over that idea. Don't ask what happened with my first attempt at a Wit!!!

More to allow gravity to do it's thing, but introduce sparge water via a pump as fast as I can. The above video suggests that sparging quickly can be equally as efficient as doing it slowly (Thanks, Wiggman!).

Forgive me, I'm trying to work-out the best way of doing what I've always done (make good beer) with the minimum amount of effort, time & $'s now that my interest has been piqued again. Also, trying to figure-out how to press into service all the bits of kit that I accumulated over the years & make it/them work better.


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## MartinOC (19/11/13)

law-of-ohms said:


> and how clear is "clear"
> 
> Shouldn't the clarity of the wort determine the run off rate? (newbie asking here)


'Never been one for requiring "clear" runoff (that's kinda anal IMHO). Most of the solids/proteins will be coagulated in the boil anyway.


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## pk.sax (19/11/13)

I just fill the tun up as far as it goes while draining it by gravity. When there is enough space to add the rest of the sparge water I add that on top, all that while it's draining at its own rate.

By modifying my crush and wet milling etc I was able to drain using a pump quite easily, in fact not having a proper brewstand I'm always moving wort around with a pump. Sparge time I just switch off the recirc for a minute, redirect the hose and start again.


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## DJR (19/11/13)

If you want to run it off fast why not just batch sparge?


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## mr_wibble (20/11/13)

law-of-ohms said:


> and how clear is "clear"
> 
> Shouldn't the clarity of the wort determine the run off rate? (newbie asking here)


Are you talking about the "Vorlauf" -> Fore Runnings ?
(However this should not be confused with "First Runnings", which is any collected wort that is from mash water, and not from sparge water)

The Vorlauf process (Vorlaufen?) is taking the first little bit out of the mash (i.e.: some of the first runnings) to catch the bits of grain & husk in the pipe-works.
This is gently returned to the top of the mash tun, and the process repeated until it's clear of debris, not clear-translucent. This process is also forming up the grain bed, where the grains and husks build a self-filter.

Recirculating mashing systems repeatedly cycle the wort through the grain, this does eventually filter out the finer particulates too, giving a clearer wort. I don't know if you still even have to vorlauf on these systems. On my esky-tun, I usually pull through a litre (to two) before it's clear (of debris).

And since no-one else has mentioned it yet -

Some problems (I've read) with sparging too quickly is that it can compact the grain bed, leading to a stuck sparge. Also it encourages the wort to form flow channels in the grain bed, which reduces efficiency as the sparge water rushes out through these channels, rather than soaking through the whole bed, washing out the sugars.

So I would guess that if you're not getting stuck sparges and maintaining good efficiency then the flow rate is OK.
I expect that once you get the point of no stuck sparges, then you could experiment on the flow rate Vs efficiency Vs time.


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## dicko (20/11/13)

The old texts on sparging home brew was fly sparge = 1 litre per minute, maintaining 5 cms of liquor above the grain.
Batch sparging was stated as just let it run out, no need to be slow.
Some used to recirculate to clear the wort, others just used to run it off as is, into the kettle.
Have things changed, nah not really.
Whatever you are happy with...


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## Adr_0 (24/11/13)

If you want science, it will be setting up pressure gauges (millibar scale) on the top and bottom of the grain bed and measuring the depth of grain. This is obviously impractical but will allow you to figure out and aim for a dP over the height. 

I'm never one to give a short answer, but the short answer is probably as fast as you can go while keeping the grain bed uncompacted at the bottom. You should be able to get your mash paddle in easily to the very bottom as a good test. 

If you fly sparge you are probably limited mostly by how much you can top up from your HLT. 

Your false bottom/manifold has a massive impact on this, as with a false bottom you have more draining area vs a manifold - so you will get a higher flow before you start to channel.

I'm 50;50 about sealing around the edge with 2mm ID silicone hose. It will reduce sheet flow around the edges and slightly increase your efficiency, but may reduce your flow capacity of you just want to lauter as quickly as possible. 

Of course to see what your maximum flow will be, you basically have to try it and see - if you go way too fast, you will totally compact the bed and flow will stop totally, but channelling and sheet flow (around the edges) happens before this - hence the test of sticking your mash paddle down to the bottom. 

Having said all that, why do the big breweries take ages to lauter and get 90-something percent efficiency? Does slow later time keep pH down and allow you to use more water?


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