# Adding up the costs of brewing



## TimT (15/1/14)

One of the nice things about small scale homebrewing is it's a very affordable alternative to buying beer (especially if you prefer craft beer to the regular lagers and Aussie bitters). In fact I suspect it's much cheaper, even when you take into account initial outlay on specialist products (whether they be urns or demijohns) since you buy that sort of stuff to last.

Just a small example of our at-home costs compared to commercial costs: we have bees, and they really are prodigious honey producers. You'll be able to fetch one small pot of honey for about $9 at the organics store down the road from us. Cheaper, lower quality honey can be brought in larger amounts (maybe 2 litres?) at the local markets for about $4.50. But here's the thing - we get at least 10 times those expensive organic honeys every time we open up the beehive and take a few frames out. Bees are prodigious producers and in our parts in summer (suburbia) they harvest so much from the surrounding flower gardens that often beekeepers can take honey from the hives repeatedly. And the base honey I use for mead comes from the leftover honey - the stuff caught in the beeswax after we have crushed everything else out. (We use the crush and strain method - most other beekeepers use a honey extractor (ie, centrifugal force) to get honey out).

So that's 6 long-necks of mead (a steal at $10, coming up to $60 for the lot), and an additional 10 pots of honey (selling at artisan levels, about $90 for the lot) - $150 should comfortably cover the costs of brewing equipment used. It doesn't cover all of the costs of the beekeeping in one go, but it wouldn't take long before it did. Oh. And I forgot the costs of the beeswax. Maybe another $10 worth every time we take some frames out? (http://www.melbournefooddepot.com/buy/natural-unbleached-bees-wax-140g-bar/BEE01)) 

Not a good accountant myself, so I'm not sure where I'd start with the beer brewing - I will one day. But I'd be very interested if anyone else has added up the costs of their hobby.


----------



## Truman42 (15/1/14)

I did. And this is what I worked out....

As an example a carton of Matilda Bay Fat Yak from Dan Murphy's will cost you

$58.89 per carton
$15.90 per 6 pack
$4.09 per 330 ml bottle

​


To brew a 25 litre batch of the same beer cost me approximately $35.00 in grain hops and yeast. (And that drops to $28 if I use the previous yeast cake)
Let's allow an extra $5.00 for water and electricity usage on brew day and an extra $5.00 for incidentals. 






So that's $45 for 25 litres or $1.80 per litre. Which works out to
$14.16 per carton
$3.54 per 6 pack
$.059 cents per stubbie.

Of course this doesnt allow for intitial outlay but at .59 cents a stubbie compared to $4.09 Im going to recoup those costs in about a year with the amount I drink.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

I like those odds!

Of course taxes and regulation makes it more expensive for the professional brewers - the Matilda Bayers, etc. But I reckon it would be quite possible to cut down on more costs in homebrewing - get a permanent yeast culture going, for instance, one thing I'd like to do. Meanwhile, with care, stuff like bottles and demijohns and pots and kettles can last effectively forever.


----------



## fletcher (15/1/14)

yeah but then what about the cost of buying your equipment, maintaining this equipment and using it - gas, electricity etc, the petrol cost of driving to the store if so to get your grains/hops etc. there are many factors included. i suppose it gets down to where you draw the line at 'cost'


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/1/14)

Enjoyment and satisfaction of brewing a good beer, PRICELESS.


----------



## Truman42 (15/1/14)

fletcher said:


> yeah but then what about the cost of buying your equipment, maintaining this equipment and using it - gas, electricity etc, the petrol cost of driving to the store if so to get your grains/hops etc. there are many factors included. i suppose it gets down to where you draw the line at 'cost'


Im lucky in that
1. I have a company car so dont pay for fuel.
2. My LHBS is my neighbour (Micah from Core Brewing lives in the next street)

I dont think you can add in buying the equipment and just allow a certain time of not buying beer and drinking your own to recoup your costs. And the $5 incidentals I added covers things like starsan and Sod perc, bottle caps, all of that.


----------



## brewtas (15/1/14)

Truman said:


> Of course this doesnt allow for intitial outlay but at .59 cents a stubbie compared to $4.09 Im going to recoup those costs in about a year with the amount I drink.


This might be the case for some people but I don't think it works quite like that for me.

I drink more because I brew so the saving isn't quite a matter of the difference between home brew cost minus commercial beer cost.

I also brewed 707L of beer last year and I gave away at least 90% of that so if I bought craft beer for myself instead of brewing I'd have been less generous but also probably spend less money.

In the end, I like the processes and creative side of brewing and it's that satisfaction and the pleasure of learning about it all that keep me at it. I try to cut costs where I can with bulk buys and specials but I've given up trying to justify it on cost saving benefits.


----------



## fletcher (15/1/14)

Truman said:


> Im lucky in that
> 1. I have a company car so dont pay for fuel.
> 2. My LHBS is my neighbour (Micah from Core Brewing lives in the next street)
> 
> I dont think you can add in buying the equipment and just allow a certain time of not buying beer and drinking your own to recoup your costs. And the $5 incidentals I added covers things like starsan and Sod perc, bottle caps, all of that.


my point stands. what you don't consider a cost, others do; and vice versa.


----------



## Dan Pratt (15/1/14)

not to be derail things but.......if your brewing for a cost savings....your in it for the wrong reasons! (personal opinion) Its a hard task to make quality beer and takes alot of time and effort. The biggest cost for me is my time to plan & prepare each brew.

I didnt even buy beer before I started homebrewing, h34r:


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

Difficult to separate out some of these 'incidental' costs like electricity, gas, etc: you'd use them *anyway*. Of course you would pay a bit for a basic pot for boiling your wort, etc, but this is one reason why I like to keep things really simple in my brewing - I just use a stockpot and sparge through cheesecloth and do small-size brews. If you factored in these incidental costs, how exactly would you take out all the time they were used for non-brew-related activities? (Electricity for turning on lights to read a book at night, gas for cooking meals, etc)? Should you bother since they would be costs that you would have to worry about anyway *apart from brewing* and the add-on costs from brewing would be negligible?

(Waiting for an accountant to burst onto this thread and tell me my thinking is all screwed up....)


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

Actually would LOVE for an accountant to burst in. Wanna do my taxes?


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

_....if your brewing for a cost savings....your in it for the wrong reasons!_

Good point Pratty. But maybe I look at it this way: you'd be freaking insane to get into homebrewing for cost savings. But you'd be silly to ignore the costs completely.


----------



## MartinOC (15/1/14)

I agree with the general gist of this & I must've spent THOUSANDS over the 30+ years I've been brewing, all things considered.

I once did a calculation of how much it would cost me to produce a stubbie & it came out at 5c (the MOST expensive part of this was the bloody caps @ 2c each!!).

Mind you, that was back in the days when I was buying 50Kg bags of grain (retail) for $30 & hops were equally cheap. Back in them days, we were lucky to have the price of a cup of tea...a cup of cold tea...without milk or sugar....or tea! 

I made all my rookie brewing mistakes on the cheap (by today's standards) & chucked a lot of brews down the drain 'cos they weren't to my "personal standards".

Would I change anything? NO ******* WAY!!!! I love my beer & everything about making & drinking it/sharing it/evaluating it etc..etc...

Cost is irrelevant where quality is concerned.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/1/14)

As Pratty says its a hobby, but it is a hobby where one gets something out of it besides satisfaction, which is cheaper and better beer and I would be surprised if many people who home brew do it solely to save money.
My fishing gear cost me 10 times the amount of my brewing gear and I release most of the fish I catch, a hobby is a satisfying recreational past time not really something to put a cost to.


----------



## New_guy (15/1/14)

Truman said:


> I did. And this is what I worked out....
> 
> As an example a carton of Matilda Bay Fat Yak from Dan Murphy's will cost you
> 
> ...


If you drank 16 beers per week (1 each night Mon - Thurs and 4 each night Fri,Sat and Sun) home brew saves you $1550.64 per year


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/1/14)

Accountant and brewer here.

I brew to save money on excellent beer. 

It's probably why I ended up going ghetto ans cheap. Amortising the cost of my two pots and the lauter over one batch of beer is cheaper than mainstream craft, let alone over the life of the items' use.

Excise is the big killer for commercial beers.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

_Excise is the big killer for commercial beers._

I can't remember the exact figures but a friend - Geordie who now lives in Australia but visits the homeland occasionally - came up with a quite startling comparison of beer prices here in Aus and there in the UK. Something like $3 for a pint over there - closer to $10 over here. If it's excise to blame for that here in Australia, then it's way too much.


----------



## 1974Alby (15/1/14)

agreed...heaps cheaper easier and quicker to buy from the fishmonger than catch your own..but where's the satisfaction in that?...cant put a price on something you love!...next someone will be mentioning the cost of you time ...Fools!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (15/1/14)

Home brewing has caused me to develop a taste for really expensive wanker beers.. so no cost savings there either.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (15/1/14)

to the point where selecting a wedding venue came down to the beer list.


----------



## MartinOC (15/1/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:
 

> Accountant and brewer here.
> 
> I brew to save money on excellent beer.
> 
> ...


My god!! An accountant with a personality! I always thought they had that surgically removed once you qualify..?

Any bloke that can use the word "amortised" in a sentence & still remain interesting is revelatory!!


----------



## malt and barley blues (15/1/14)

Well you could have developed a taste for expensive wanker beers without brewing your own, then you would be worse off.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

_Home brewing has caused me to develop a taste for really expensive wanker beers.. so no cost savings there either... to the point where selecting a wedding venue came down to the beer list._

Hey, that shit is important! Agree though.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

There's wanker beers and then there's -
http://www.amazon.com/Semenology-The-Semen-Bartenders-Handbook/dp/1482605228/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y/178-9212232-1476247

And no, it's not a typo and they're not referring to bartending by jolly nautical types.


----------



## fletcher (15/1/14)

oh i'm not meaning to take anything away from people who've genuinely or otherwise, given a good crack at figuring out the costs involved. i'm just saying that different things are costs to different people. perhaps it'd be easier to give a cost if someone gave a template haha.

i used the excuse with my wife to say i'd save money on beers and in a way it's right. i never buy any for home anymore - but still buy them when i'm out so it evened out. she realised early on though that it's a hobby, and there is always a shiny new addition i need to my brewery!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (15/1/14)

TimT said:


> There's wanker beers and then there's -
> http://www.amazon.com/Semenology-The-Semen-Bartenders-Handbook/dp/1482605228/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y/178-9212232-1476247
> 
> And no, it's not a typo and they're not referring to bartending by jolly nautical types.


HAHAH wtf?


----------



## MartinOC (15/1/14)

Who would honestly buy a book called "Semenology" & not think it's some sort of follow-up to 50 shades of gray???


----------



## Liam_snorkel (15/1/14)

the reviews are gold


----------



## bluedoors (15/1/14)

I originally thought homebrewing was saving me money until i realised i actually bought more craft beer now than before, as i wanted to try different flavours and styles


----------



## MartinOC (15/1/14)

BlueDoors said:


> I originally thought homebrewing was saving me money until i realised i actually bought more craft beer now than before, as i wanted to try different flavours and styles


Welcome to the vortex, BlueDoors :super:


----------



## zappa (15/1/14)

TimT said:


> There's wanker beers and then there's -
> http://www.amazon.com/Semenology-The-Semen-Bartenders-Handbook/dp/1482605228/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y/178-9212232-1476247
> 
> And no, it's not a typo and they're not referring to bartending by jolly nautical types.



I'm not sure what's more bizarre, this or the Frequently Bought Together/ Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought lists. A Practical Guide to Racism???


----------



## TSMill (15/1/14)

You need to factor in the increase in your beer consumption (in particular, post kegging), plus all of your mates who like to drink for free, father in law reminding you he is out of beer etc......

That said, I figure I come out around $500 a year in front financially based on consumables cost vs. cheap commercial beer cost, further ahead if I'm just drinking craft beers. Brewery setup plus keg fridge would have set me back in the order of $2500, so the payback time to have awesome beer on tap at home is pretty good, and any hobby that has a payback period is a bonus.


----------



## Sully (15/1/14)

I have a mate cursing me for the last few years it's costing him more for beer since I introduced home to Craft beers. He was happy with his xxxx gold.


----------



## Aydos (15/1/14)

I have the same kind of friend who blames me from taking him from drinking VB to producing his own homebrew and now doesn't like drinking anything but craft beer. The way that I look at it, I'm saving him.


----------



## superstock (15/1/14)

I think that what has been forgotten here, are the thousands of K&K brewers who ARE doing it to save money, with a minimum of equipement and outlay, who aren't interested in making a better brew. Without these people the homebrew industry would be more expensive for the rest of us.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

It's true, brewing my own has lifted my standards when I go and have a drink in pubs. Craft beer all the way. It's a fickle market though - one's favourite brew of two weeks ago can vanish quickly. For instance when I mentioned Killer Sprocket's lovely amber ale to the guys behind the bar at the pub last Saturday they agreed it was lovely and informed me it was only a once-in-a-lifetime brew. Dang it!

I read a while back that the Australian scientists in Antarctica have a brewer - can kits - because it's easy and it saves them heaps of money. (Otherwise it would be expended on slabs of VBs). Brewing on the South Pole - how's that for extreme brewing?


----------



## QldKev (15/1/14)

fletcher said:


> yeah but then what about the cost of buying your equipment, maintaining this equipment and using it - gas, electricity etc, the petrol cost of driving to the store if so to get your grains/hops etc. there are many factors included. i suppose it gets down to where you draw the line at 'cost'



My household drinking is up to 2 cartons a week. This includes me and what my mates/sons drink. If I was buying FatYak my personal budget would not buy this amount of beer. But thanks to brewing I can keep in supply of grog, and have a hobby where I keep upgrading/building stuff. I have two full beer brewing systems that I'm constantly playing with and have money for other hobbies. If you are spending more than the commercial beer cost you are doing it wrong. If you are spending a lot of money in ingredients or fuel you are doing it all wrong.


----------



## fletcher (15/1/14)

QldKev said:


> My household drinking is up to 2 cartons a week. This includes me and what my mates/sons drink. If I was buying FatYak my personal budget would not buy this amount of beer. But thanks to brewing I can keep in supply of grog, and have a hobby where I keep upgrading/building stuff. I have two full beer brewing systems that I'm constantly playing with and have money for other hobbies. If you are spending more than the commercial beer cost you are doing it wrong.


definitely. when it all adds up i'm sure i've spent less per beer than i ever would have if i was drinking the same amount commercially. no doubt.


----------



## brewtas (15/1/14)

superstock said:


> I think that what has been forgotten here, are the thousands of K&K brewers who ARE doing it to save money, with a minimum of equipement and outlay, who aren't interested in making a better brew. Without these people the homebrew industry would be more expensive for the rest of us.


Would it though? All grain brewers generally use completely different ingredients so why would it be more expensive?


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

What exactly do they put in can kits? I wouldn't be surprised if big beer brewers view it as a handy way to offload excess products. I only did a few can brews in the end - four, I think - and the ingredients list were rather, um, unforthcoming. 'Malt' and 'hops'. And, for the ginger beer, the mysterious 'additives' followed by a three or four digit number.


----------



## superstock (15/1/14)

brewtas said:


> Would it though? All grain brewers generally use completely different ingredients so why would it be more expensive?


It's volume sales that keeps the doors open on your LHBS.


----------



## MastersBrewery (15/1/14)

When I started brewing, I was in the money and time poor, buying craft beer was a non issue for two reasons one was my budget the other I had to be 0.00 BAV to start work and I was working 12 days in 14. Since becoming a stay home dad, I'm money poor, and time rich, especially if my son can join in. If I wasn't brewing I probably wouldn't be drinking more than a case of two a year and none of that would be near the quality of what I can make. If I won lotto I'd still be brewing my own.(just with shinnier gear!)
Like some have said above, brewing is a personal journey of flavours and experimentation, and like me for some, the search for improvement on equipment and setup and tinkering.

some people fish some chase a white ball from one hole in the ground to the next.

Give me malty nectar any day.


----------



## MastersBrewery (15/1/14)

When I started brewing, I was in the money and time poor, buying craft beer was a non issue for two reasons one was my budget the other I had to be 0.00 BAV to start work and I was working 12 days in 14. Since becoming a stay home dad, I'm money poor, and time rich, especially if my son can join in. If I wasn't brewing I probably wouldn't be drinking more than a case of two a year and none of that would be near the quality of what I can make. If I won lotto I'd still be brewing my own.(just with shinnier gear!)
Like some have said above, brewing is a personal journey of flavours and experimentation, and like me for some, the search for improvement on equipment and setup and tinkering.

some people fish some chase a white ball from one hole in the ground to the next.

Give me malty nectar any day.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

_Would it though? All grain brewers generally use completely different ingredients so why would it be more expensive?_

So, Truman came up with the price of around $0.059 a stubbie.

It's pretty easy to work out the costs of a kit beer - all the ingredients come with the kit, and the only extra specialty expense is a carboy. But let's keep those extra expenses out of it to make it simple. Coopers English Bitter, for instance, has a cost of around 25.87 according to this google search I did. Round down to $25 for nice round numbers.

Assume the amount of beer brewed is 23 litres, so divide by 23, and assume you'll get 3 stubbies per litre, so divide by 3.

So I get $0.362 - significantly more than $0.059!

(Then again - also assume I've made some error in my figures somewhere. Happy to be proved wrong, so have at it!)


----------



## fletcher (15/1/14)

TimT said:


> _Would it though? All grain brewers generally use completely different ingredients so why would it be more expensive?_
> 
> So, Truman came up with the price of around $0.059 a stubbie.
> 
> ...



make a template for us to work with mate! so we can plug in our figures into it and see what an average beer costs


----------



## zeggie (15/1/14)

malt & barley blues said:


> Enjoyment and satisfaction of brewing a good beer, PRICELESS.


^^^^^^ this


----------



## slcmorro (15/1/14)

I just did a brew and it cost me the following...

3kg of JW Pils @ 1.70 per keg = $5.10
500g of Long White Rice @ $1 per kg = $0.25
1 x W34/70 packet @ $5 = $7
10gm of Magnum @ $8 per 100gm = $0.80
40gm of Saaz = $2 
Starsan (estimate) = $0.05
Bottled Gas (estimate) = $3
CO2 (estimate) = $0.25

Total = $18.45.

That's just over 2 slabs worth of a great drinking Pils for under a quarter of the cost of 1 slab of Pilsner Urquell. Even less for the next time I brew and reuse the yeast.


----------



## Sully (15/1/14)

I'd rather pay $30+ for a great steak than $25 for a crap steak, same goes with beer. If it's cheaper and better it's a bonus. Won't ever do the math on how much it is costs per batch.


----------



## Grainer (15/1/14)

I shudder to think the cost of my setup..but its my brew... thats the point..I don't give a flying F*&^ what it cost me.. I enjoy drinking my own brew and making it on my MAN rig!!!

4 v customised electric brewery at the moment something like $30 a stubby LMAO..


----------



## booargy (15/1/14)

hobgoblin is $8 for 500ml which works out at $800 for 50L
A hobgoblin type AG beer kit from MHB costs me $115 with 3 wyeast packets. so even with 15hrs of work i'm still in front.


----------



## brewtas (15/1/14)

superstock said:


> It's volume sales that keeps the doors open on your LHBS.


That's not quite the same thing as kit beers making AG cheaper. Without kit beers there'd be more demand for grain and the industry would look very different. It's not a simple equation of kit brewers subsidising AG brewers.


----------



## MartinOC (15/1/14)

> I shudder to think the cost of my setup..but its my brew... thats the point..I don't give a flying F*&^ what it cost me.. I enjoy drinking my own brew and making it on my MAN rig!!!
> 
> 4 v customised electric brewery at the moment something like $30 a stubby LMAO..


Maybe you should talk to LRG about the whole "amortise" thang & see if you can get a good deal on leasing a machine that goes "Ping!"??


----------



## MAX POWER (15/1/14)

TimT said:


> _Excise is the big killer for commercial beers._
> 
> I can't remember the exact figures but a friend - Geordie who now lives in Australia but visits the homeland occasionally - came up with a quite startling comparison of beer prices here in Aus and there in the UK. Something like $3 for a pint over there - closer to $10 over here. If it's excise to blame for that here in Australia, then it's way too much.


Excise here is $32 per litre of pure alcohol. In the US it's $2 approx. The uk I believe was around $6-$8. I saw it in an article recently when they were going to raise ours again. 
It's a killer here. A yank mate keeps telling me you can never save money homebrewing. That may true over there, but it's not an even playing field.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

Wow. That's really bad. How'd it get so big - legacy of our temperance movement? (Could be - ours dragged on and on, whereas in the US the national experiment with banning alcohol was such a fantastic failure that it must have killed off a lot of the enthusiasm about temperance).


----------



## SmallFry (15/1/14)

TimT said:


> So, Truman came up with the price of around $0.059 a stubbie.


I suspect he may have inadvertently moved the decimal point.


----------



## TimT (15/1/14)

Ah. True.


----------



## adryargument (15/1/14)

TimT said:


> There's wanker beers and then there's -
> http://www.amazon.com/Semenology-The-Semen-Bartenders-Handbook/dp/1482605228/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y/178-9212232-1476247
> 
> And no, it's not a typo and they're not referring to bartending by jolly nautical types.


Thankyou,
Just purchased it.


----------



## pcmfisher (16/1/14)

Haven't I read a thread like this before? It just seems so familiar.


----------



## TimT (16/1/14)

It's possible - this site is pretty old now so I'm sure a lot of topics have been covered plenty of times.

I got the idea for this while reading another thread about getting into professional brewing and thought about all the accountancy that would be involved.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/1/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Home brewing has caused me to develop a taste for really expensive wanker beers.. so no cost savings there either.


This is the problem. And I suppose, where we might save some money. Our expensive commercial beers are spread out (well in my case) by brewing equal or better quality beer at home. But yeah, who grabs a stubbie for $6 or a tallie for $12 plus and thinks nothing of it? That's the cost of a 6er of Megaswill.

I'm really strongly of the opinion that homebrewing has been a massive part of the reason craft beer has an upsurge in Australia, not just following (outdated) US trends.



MartinOC said:


> My god!! An accountant with a personality! I always thought they had that surgically removed once you qualify..?
> 
> Any bloke that can use the word "amortised" in a sentence & still remain interesting is revelatory!!


Yup, there are about 60% like that (and are usually partners/owners of a practice), the rest actually have a personality. It's funny when you're in an open office and the smack talk starts. Funny as. 

As for "amortised" - as has been mentioned here, some don't care about the cost at all - because it's a hobby. 

Those that do (or need to justify it to themselves, SWMBO or mates), it's the simplest method of spreading the cost of the equipment over your beer, and still seeing if you finish ahead of the cost of commercial beer. 

I could do so (with the ghetto 2 pot stovetop method - plug!) over one batch and already finish ahead, compared to 3 cartons of VALE/IPA (I brew in 25L lots) - which is about the lowest level of commercial beer cost wise, that I would actually buy a carton of.



MAX POWER said:


> Excise here is $32 per litre of pure alcohol. In the US it's $2 approx. The uk I believe was around $6-$8. I saw it in an article recently when they were going to raise ours again.
> It's a killer here. A yank mate keeps telling me you can never save money homebrewing. That may true over there, but it's not an even playing field.


The other thing with excise, it continually increases in Oz along CPI lines twice a year. So, it's not like the GST, which is a flat rate thing all the time, it's a per litre thing that continually increases.


----------



## itmechanic (16/1/14)

Its a bit more than that, $45.44 per litre for packages under 48 litres.


----------



## mr_wibble (20/1/14)

I don't see the need to justify it.

You don't justify the cost of fishing gear against the cost of buying fish.
(which for me is probably a good thing)


----------



## joshF (20/1/14)

Mr Wibble said:


> I don't see the need to justify it.
> 
> You don't justify the cost of fishing gear against the cost of buying fish.
> (which for me is probably a good thing)


Totally agree, i treat brewing as a hobby regardless of the costs really. Some people go and buy an old commodore, spend $15,000+ on wheels, paint job, engine modifications blablabla but at the end of the day its still a commodore. Yet to the individual they don't feel the need to justify it because its their hobby etc etc. Everyone's perception of 'value' is different.

But cmon, its beer. All grain brewing with a nice keg setup to go with it... It's always gonna be worth it :super:


----------



## Papa Lazarou (20/1/14)

I think home brewing can be an addiction and I am pretty sure it is cheaper than heroin or cocaine, so it's way cheaper.
And comparing a fresh beer from your keg or bottle to a commercial beer that sells well in Australia is like comparing a fish and chip shop burger with the lot to a McDonalds laxative (big mac).
Even the beers I brew that I think need improving are volumes better than VB.


----------



## joshF (20/1/14)

Speaking of volumes, maybe i need to banish this IPA i'm drinking cause I was certain i just read 'Comparing a fresh fish from your keg to a commercial beer' haha


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/1/14)

I finally overcame my heroin addiction, got rid of my Wonder Woman outfit.


----------



## maxim0200 (20/1/14)

itmechanic said:


> Its a bit more than that, $45.44 per litre for packages under 48 litres.


Yep Correct for over 3.5% Alcohol and for those who want to know more:
http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?Docid=PAC%2FBL030002%2F1&PiT=99991231235958

The screwed part is that cider is taxed way more:
"Other excisable beverages not exceeding 10% by volume of alcohol @ $76.98 per litre of alcohol"


----------



## zarniwoop (20/1/14)

I don't drink a huge amount so I don't buy in bulk and rarely farm yeast so my brew ingredients normally come in around $35-40 for 23L of finished beer, that normally gives me around 60 stubbies depending on how much I spill so worst case $16 a slab, at craft beer going for around $60+ a slab I'm $110 ahead each brew. I BIAB and I'd guess my setup was ~$600 with all the bits so I paid that off over 6 brews.

However.... if you really want to cost it out you need to look at your time, it takes say 1 hour to plan a brew and order ingredients (actually it takes about 3 days but that's just because I love pontificating about recipes etc), about 5 hours to brew and 2 hours to bottle (I really need to start kegging) so with $110 remaining it means I'm brewing for $13.75/hour. What's the minimum adult wage these days?

But... I work a salaried job so there is no question of me working extra hours to pay for beer, if I could work overtime you could argue that depending on your pay rate you'd be better off doing that and then buying beer. This is where the hobby aspect comes in and to be fair half my time on brew day is spent playing with the kids or doing something else around the house whilst I wait for things to happen, I'm happy to do that for $13.75/hour


----------



## yum beer (20/1/14)

I have a $20 a week brewing budget, all ingredients, equipment and sample craft beers come out of that.....
last year..52 weeks $1020......brewed 14 batches = $72 a batch.
I easily spent $600 on craft beer.

If I didnt brew I'd spend $20 a week on a sixer of some sort.
That means I get 8 cartons each year for no cost and get to drink some awesome and different beers as I go.


----------



## recharge (21/1/14)

I don't think about it because I don't care.
I make beer, I drink beer. 
Its all good.


----------



## Jason_brews_beer (21/1/14)

TimT said:


> There's wanker beers and then there's -
> http://www.amazon.com/Semenology-The-Semen-Bartenders-Handbook/dp/1482605228/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y/178-9212232-1476247
> 
> And no, it's not a typo and they're not referring to bartending by jolly nautical types.


I don't even have words... hahahahaha


----------



## Jason_brews_beer (21/1/14)

itmechanic said:


> Its a bit more than that, $45.44 per litre for packages under 48 litres.



This is outrageous!!! Seriously needs reform... Pollies just pocket the dosh and do what exactly?!?! SWEET FA!!!


----------



## Not For Horses (21/1/14)

maxim0200 said:


> Yep Correct for over 3.5% Alcohol and for those who want to know more:http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?Docid=PAC%2FBL030002%2F1&PiT=99991231235958 The screwed part is that cider is taxed way more:"Other excisable beverages not exceeding 10% by volume of alcohol @ $76.98 per litre of alcohol"


Nope, cider is classed as a fruit wine and falls under the wine equalisation tax. The page is down right now so I can't get the link to the exact amount but it is actually based on the sale price rather than the absolute volume of alcohol. Cider makers generally pay way less excise.


----------



## Camo6 (21/1/14)

^^^ This is why we have a glut of alcopop "ciders" on the market.


----------



## jaypes (21/1/14)

I once heard homebrewing is the most expensive way to make cheap beer.

For me its all about mastering the craft, making good beer and getting away from the wife and kids once in a while - costs dont even come into the equation (well they do but not in comparison to buying commercial beer)


----------



## Greg.L (21/1/14)

If you like to drink regularly, most nights a few glasses, then really you are mad not to make your own booze. Extract brews are still better than most industrial beers and a hell of a lot cheaper. I grow a lot of apples for cider, there are a lot of costs involved with equipment but it still costs well under $1.00/Litre, much better cider than at Dan's. Even making your own wine is quite cheap, though a lot of patience is needed.
I like to make my own food, bread pasta etc, grow my own vegies, it's all good, home brewing is just an extension of that.

Regarding excise there are 2 classes of cider, flavoured ciders are classed as alcopop, non flavoured cider classed as wine. I think they should class sugar as a flavouring.


----------



## TimT (21/1/14)

_I once heard homebrewing is the most expensive way to make cheap beer._

Think the situation in Australia is pretty much the reverse. The cheapest way to make expensive beer.

I have a lot of brews at home. I'd like to share more with friends but it would also be nice for them to help contribute to the cost. But to do that I'd need to know in more detail the costs of my brewing. I'll work it out some time.


----------



## dago001 (21/1/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Accountant and brewer here.
> 
> I brew to save money on excellent beer.
> 
> ...


But you have to brew to be a cheap arse accountant. Going 2 months without a brew day, and buying Vale is not cost effective :lol:
LB


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (21/1/14)

LagerBomb said:


> But you have to brew to be a cheap arse accountant. Going 2 months without a brew day, and buying Vale is not cost effective :lol:
> LB


It's getting closer to 5 months. Just can't seem to find the time for it.

But yep, Vale is not cost effective, especially given the missus loves it and is feeling like beer at the moment.

Oh well. Got some grain ground, and then..... I get sick. So yesterday was cancelled. Hopefully this weekend.

Should just drag it to your place and whack through double or triple batches.


----------



## pommiebloke (21/1/14)

I've never bothered to add it all up. I supposed I've got a couple of grand's worth of equipment if you include the keg fridge and I spend around $70 a month on brewing supplies spread across the year.

But as others have said, it's my hobby too and I can't put a price on the enjoyment I get out of crafting my own quality beers which I then get to drink and share with friends and family.


----------



## philmud (21/1/14)

TimT said:


> I have a lot of brews at home. I'd like to share more with friends but it would also be nice for them to help contribute to the cost. But to do that I'd need to know in more detail the costs of my brewing. I'll work it out some time.


There's a long thread in this sub-forum discussing the ettiquette involved when friends drink your beer. From memory there were a few common approaches - some brewers didn't bother, either the amounts being drunk were negligible, or they felt strongly that guests shouldn't contribute to the cost if the beer they served. Others had an un-verbalised expectation that if mates came over for a beer, they'd bring some beer to share, or perhaps some food. A few guys had a coin box in their bar and their friends made a small contribution for each beer they drank (circa $0.50 - $1.00).


----------



## TimT (21/1/14)

Oh yeah. Mostly I don't bother. But still - costs do add up, and if I were to, say, have a regular arrangement with friends where I gave them a few bottles every few weeks I'd want to consider some system like this. When I get friends to do stuff for my zines or perform with me on stage I sometimes give them a few bottles of brew, too, as a payment.

A mate who used to make wine fairly regularly but has now stopped mentioned that people often just expected free wine and didn't help him out with the costs, which he found disheartening. It's something worth thinking about, I reckon - I'm never going to become a professional brewer but brewing is a skill and it's worth acknowledging that.


----------



## fletcher (21/1/14)

TimT said:


> _I once heard homebrewing is the most expensive way to make cheap beer._
> 
> Think the situation in Australia is pretty much the reverse. The cheapest way to make expensive beer.
> 
> I have a lot of brews at home. I'd like to share more with friends but it would also be nice for them to help contribute to the cost. But to do that I'd need to know in more detail the costs of my brewing. I'll work it out some time.


i'm exactly the opposite. i love giving my beer to friends and family just because they enjoy it. life a gift almost. if they took advantage of that though then it might be a different story.

i love the feedback and the sense of pride (for want of a better term) when they genuinely enjoy it 

EDIT: yes, as prince has said. another thread has this haha


----------



## beermeupscotty (21/1/14)

Haven't done detailed calcs yet but my kit brews generally come to around $1/stubby (ignoring capital costs). In the next few weeks as I establish my new brewing system, I'll start logging and calculating more seriously (I like the maths side of it ).

Regarding sharing brews with friends... My general system is:

If I'm in company (and the group isn't too large), I'm happy to provide brews free of charge (given I have decent stock) - it's nice to be able to share something you've made with friends, and also good to get feedback. That said, if this depletes the reserves too drastically or simply became a habit without much appreciation or reciprocation from recipients then I'd put the brakes on it a bit. Most of my friends are pretty good with this though.

If I'm *not* in company, then I have a small coin box with a charge of $1.50 (ONO) in the case that they'd like to have a few beers from the fridge (this is generally only for housemates at this point). $1.50 is kind of high but it's still cheaper (and better IMO) than what they'd otherwise buy, plus I want to keep some for myself so I don't really want to promote my beer all being drunk just yet! Once I increase capacity and stock, and eventually lower costs with AG, I'll drop the costs accordingly. However, it's all pretty trivial as I think I've only made $3 so far, haha.


----------



## sb944 (21/1/14)

I actually had a semi fight with the mrs about this subject on the weekend. After only 6 weeks of brewing, I've made quite a lot of little purchases, not hiding any of it from her. She finally confronted me about how much this hobby has cost us so far, why not just buy beer? I said it's probably cost less than just buying beer, and she said it's not possible.

Well, now I've done the numbers, and the only beer you could have bought cheaper at the same volume is 30 can slabs when they are on their best special at Dan Murphys with a 5% discount. In the mean time, I have brewed 5 different types of beer, including an all grain, and have all I need (but still want a lot more) to make K+K, AG, ferment with temperature control, and bottle my beer properly. 

Ongoing from here, without buying in bulk, I'd estimate $25 for a coopers kit and all accessories for a 5% ABV will make $85 @ slab prices, and $45 AG will make around $120 @ nice beer prices. Can't easily be argued with.

For now, I will continue to spend on things as I see fit. We'll see how long it takes her to question the costs again, at which point, I will at least have the answers she won't like.


----------



## fletcher (21/1/14)

i'll say it. per beer, your home brew beer is cheaper. the hobby isn't.


----------



## lukiferj (21/1/14)

fletcher said:


> i'll say it. per beer, your home brew beer is cheaper. the hobby isn't.


This. Could not have said it better.


----------



## Greg.L (21/1/14)

If you keep at it and maintain your equipment the capital cost is very low over the years, especially if you are creative with how you source equipment.
In Italy and france they have been doing homebrew for generations (wine rather than beer). People in a village share equipment, cellars were excavated hundreds of years ago, no-one ever has to start from scratch, everyone helps out. The cost falls to almost zero. In Australia people think you are a bit odd if you make your own booze (they do even if they don't say it), in a french village people think you are odd if you don't.


----------



## mr_wibble (22/1/14)

Greg.L said:


> If you keep at it and maintain your equipment the capital cost is very low over the years, especially if you are creative with how you source equipment.
> In Italy and france they have been doing homebrew for generations (wine rather than beer). People in a village share equipment, cellars were excavated hundreds of years ago, no-one ever has to start from scratch, everyone helps out. The cost falls to almost zero. In Australia people think you are a bit odd if you make your own booze (they do even if they don't say it), in a french village people think you are odd if you don't.


Yeah, we lived over there for work for a couple of years. 
The local hardware store sold a wide range of plastic and glass demijohns, air locks, etc. They were just stocked next to all the other semi-agicultural gear.
Unfortunately I wasn't brewing anything at the time except kids ginger beer. Wish I'd picked up some of those huge-arse (that's a techincal term) glass wine demijohns.

A couple of the local orchards sold "süssmost" from honesty boxes. In this case, unprocessed apple juice. If you left it out for a couple of days it turned into a light cider. Mmmm.


----------



## syl (22/1/14)

I have done my costs previously too.

After bulk orders, yeast washing, my costs for my house APA are as follows:

$32 per 65L batch (after loss) including electricity and water.

$0.49 per L
$0.16 per 330ml stubby
$3.90 per slab

In terms outlay of equipment, I am around the $10,000 mark (not trying to kid myself). Most of my batches come in around $40-50 mark, I do record this in BeerSmith too.

So each 65L batch I get down I count it as a $200 win. Due to me giving beer away to friends/colleagues and also due to drinking a lot!


Then 10K outlay includes everything I've bought as I moved from extract/mini/biab/mini/ag over the years.

I see my breakeven as 50 brews on the latest system (Braumeister/Bulk hops/Bulk grain/re-used yeast) then I will know well and truly I am winning!


----------



## Tahoose (22/1/14)

I don't really count what I spend on my equipment, I mean I have it all written down but I don't really look at it from a cost per brew perspective or anything. I mean you wouldn't think so much of it if you bought a new shirt or say something to go it the house.

I just look at as things such as my ingredients, so I know the 10l batch I did on Friday cost $12.55 for example.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (22/1/14)

So around 330 slabs of beer to amortise out the cost of beer (assuming that a carton of beer costs $34 commercially). 

Given you're in 65L batches (which is over 3 slabs), that's 100 brew days of your house APA to break even on the equipment.

If you were paying more per carton for a similar beer (which you would have, that's megaswill costs), then the number of slabs/brew days starts to decrease.



syl said:


> I have done my costs previously too.
> 
> After bulk orders, yeast washing, my costs for my house APA are as follows:
> 
> ...


----------



## itmechanic (22/1/14)

maxim0200 said:


> Yep Correct for over 3.5% Alcohol and for those who want to know more:
> http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?Docid=PAC%2FBL030002%2F1&PiT=99991231235958
> 
> The screwed part is that cider is taxed way more:
> "Other excisable beverages not exceeding 10% by volume of alcohol @ $76.98 per litre of alcohol"


Totally different system for cider, WET not excise.


----------



## syl (22/1/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> So around 330 slabs of beer to amortise out the cost of beer (assuming that a carton of beer costs $34 commercially).
> 
> Given you're in 65L batches (which is over 3 slabs), that's 100 brew days of your house APA to break even on the equipment.
> 
> If you were paying more per carton for a similar beer (which you would have, that's megaswill costs), then the number of slabs/brew days starts to decrease.


A 65L brew is 8 slabs. And I don't drink megaswill, so let's say $50 to be generous. It is around a $370 saving per brew, I call it $200 due to the amount of free beer I give away!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (22/1/14)

syl said:


> A 65L brew is 8 slabs. And I don't drink megaswill, so let's say $50 to be generous. It is around a $370 saving per brew, I call it $200 due to the amount of free beer I give away!



It is too - I was being conservative with the figures. Accountants are like that, it factors in "worst case" scenarios. And my brain did it in 22L lots, and did "batch" rather than "carton" - doped up on painkillers will do that.

So we're looking at 50 batches at $200 "profit" per brew to pay off the equipment.

I reckon if you were brewing monk quality belgians, the profit could be way higher, as, even from Dan's, you're looking at around $80 per slab of 20 belgians - minimum.


----------



## syl (22/1/14)

Definitely making a bigger profit than $200, but being a manager, I know to set expectation low and then exceed!


----------

