# Sydney Water Profile



## adryargument

So i have just spent the better part of the day getting nice and comfy with Beersmith 2 and setting up my brewing laptop.
As always with these endeavors something is always forgotten.

I seem to have lost (deleted :excl: ) my normal water profile.

Searching the forums i can only find files from 2008/2009.

Does anyone have any more recent reports for the Northern Beaches/Prospect water supply?
(Preferably in an easy to read manner, my chemistry skills are not quite what they once were)

Cheers,
Chris


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## jbumpstead

adryargument said:


> So i have just spent the better part of the day getting nice and comfy with Beersmith 2 and setting up my brewing laptop.
> As always with these endeavors something is always forgotten.
> 
> I seem to have lost (deleted :excl: ) my normal water profile.
> 
> Searching the forums i can only find files from 2008/2009.
> 
> Does anyone have any more recent reports for the Northern Beaches/Prospect water supply?
> (Preferably in an easy to read manner, my chemistry skills are not quite what they once were)
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris



G'day Chris,

http://www.sydneywater.com.au/WaterQuality...gWaterAnalysis/
Cheers,
Justin


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## adryargument

Cheers,

Hell of alot easier to read compared to alot of the other sydney water reports.

However i am still missing bicarbonate HCO3 - Anyway to work it out from the above?


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## donburke

adryargument said:


> Cheers,
> 
> Hell of alot easier to read compared to alot of the other sydney water reports.




what number are you using for hco3 ?


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## adryargument

donburke said:


> what number are you using for hco3 ?



None at the moment, previously been using an online calculator that never mentioned hco3.


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## matho

Too get HCO3 you take alkalinity as CaCO3 and divide by 50 and then times by 61

Cheers matho

Edit: which for ryde report would be 35 ppm to 45 ppm


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## adryargument

matho said:


> Too get HCO3 you take alkalinity as CaCO3 and divide by 50 and then times by 61
> 
> Cheers matho
> 
> Edit: which for ryde report would be 35 ppm to 45 ppm



Thanks a bunch!


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## BjornJ

from entering this in beersmith some time ago after reading Sydney Water reports for Prospect water, I use 39.5 for HCO3.

thanks
Bjorn


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## tiprya

For future googlers, the new location of Sydney water reports is here:
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/water-the-environment/how-we-manage-sydney-s-water/waterquality/typical-drinking-water-analysis/index.htm


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## Dan_kville

Update to this thread
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/wa.../safe-drinking-water/water-analysis/index.htm


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## Phoney

Quick question, which values should one use when a water report lists, for example:

(10th – 90th percentile range)
4.1 – 5.3


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## peteru

Take the average:


Code:


(4.1 + 5.3) / 2 = 4.7


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## Hez

matho said:


> Too get HCO3 you take alkalinity as CaCO3 and divide by 50 and then times by 61
> ....which for ryde report would be 35 ppm to 45 ppm




I'm studying a little the water chemistry for brewing and I found this post...
I live in Mosman and I also have Ryde water supply as discussed here, this is the report:
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/g...ments/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044731.pdf

From the report, I've gathered the following info:
Ca+2 11.4 - 17.3 mg/L
Mg+2 18 - 27 mg/L
SO4-2 7.4 - 8.8 mg/L
Na+ 12.3 - 19.0 mg/L
Cl- 25 - 35.5 mg/L
HCO3- 35.4 - 47.6 mg/L

(Alkalinity 29 - 39 mg CaCO3 /L -> 29 mgCaCO3 * 61 / 50 = 35.38 mg/L and 39 mgCaCO3 * 61 / 50 = 47.58 mg/L)

So if you use a basic water calculator like this one: https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

The input should be (average of the percentiles):
Ca+2 14.35 mg/L
Mg+2 22.5 mg/L
SO4-2 8.1 mg/L
Na+ 15.65 mg/L
Cl- 30.25 mg/L
HCO3- 41.5 mg/L

Does it sound about right?

I've been playing a little with this calculator to see what would I need for brewing an IPA (select Burton on Trent on the target profile combobox) and for my batch: 10L + 2L trub, boil 90', efficiency 68%... bla bla... total water needed 21.3L

For having the "green stars", the closest I can get to the "desired" values is by using:
Chalk CaCO3: 2g
Baking Soda NaHCO3: 5g
Gypsum CaSO4: 10g
Calcium Chloride CaCl2: 0g
Epsom Salt MgSO4: 1g
Canning Salt NaCl: 2g

I get green-range in everything but a huge deficit in:
Ca+2 : -127
SO4-2: -432
But "Burton on Trent" water, according to this calculator, is not even safe for drinking!

About the salts, my home brew supplier has:

- Magnesium Sulphate = Epsom Salt MgSO4
- Calcium Sulphate = Gypsum CaSO4
- Calcium Carbonate = Chalk CaCO3

and I can buy the table salt and the baking soda from the supermarket but... I don't know about the Calcium Chloride, maybe I can live without it... I think it is used for lowering the PH, but I've only seen products for reducing it in my supplier page, meaning, acids: malic acid, tartaric acid and citric acid.
Do you recommend buying a cheap chinese PH meter from ebay or go directly to the PH paper strips (cheaper, don't need calibration)? And from those 3 (malic, tartaric and citric acid) which one is best?

When is the best moment to add the salts? Do they affect the mash? I know they can modify the PH and thus the sugar extraction, but everyone seems to say: do it at the beginning of the boil (after sparge).

About the PH, when should it be measured? after the mash before the mash out? and adjusted? Should I try to calculate the final PH in advance and add (if necessary) the acid to the initial mash water (and sparge water) ?

About Chalk vs Baking Soda, do they "fight each other"? Should I use both at the same time? I don't know if this calculator is accounting for that. And by the way: what is Baking Soda in Australia? Sodium bicarbonate, ok... but what particular product do I buy at Coles/Woolworth/IGA? What about the salt? "canning salt, kosher salt, pickling salt, or pure salt - just make sure it is not iodized" <- any particular brand / product from australian supermarkets?


P.S. This is the recipe I want to brew ("Three Floyd's Zombie Dust" clone): https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/biab-chinook-ipa.96298/page-3#post-1481250 @manticle told me to use half a teaspoon of gypsum/calcium sulphate and forget about the rest until I improve a little. I will most likely do that for this one but I want to keep learning!

P.P.S. I just found this other extended version of the calculator:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
And using 2g of citric/tartaric acid (100% strength) I get 0.00 deviation of the target PH for the selected water profile (burton on trent) using the recipe's grain.
(*Mash pH *:* 5.64 * mash prediction is for mash sample cooled to 25 C / 77 F)
Other alternative would be to substitute 100g of the pale malt for acidulated malt (2.8% of the total grain bill).
Which option would you recommend?


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## manticle

Calcium salts and acid in the mash to get pH right.
A shade more calcium salts to the boil for flavour profile.
A smidgen of acid in sparse water if sparging.

Forget burtonising the water - generally better to work out what's needed for your beer preference rather than rely on alleged water profiles from one water source at a single point in history.

Water profiles are like kit instructions


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## Hez

I continued the conversation in the IPA post.
Summary in case someone finds this in the future...
- Use this cool free water chemistry calculator: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/
- When to add the salts? before mash in and into the sparge water.
- Preference of acid: acidulated malt or lactic acid (only if needed after using the salts!)
- Yes sodium bicarbonate, chalk and slaked lime "fight" with gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom salt, and yes, the calculator accounts for that!
- yes, non-iodized-salt and sodium bicarbonate can be found in australian supermarkets under different brands, go and look at the labels.

The calculations for my recipe/batch...

Starting water profile:
Ca+2 14.35 mg/L
Mg+2 22.50 mg/L
Na+ 15.65 mg/L
Cl- 30.25 mg/L
SO4-2 8.10 mg/L
HCO3- 41.5 mg/L

16.3L Mash Vol.
5.0L Sparge Vol.
2860g Base 2Row
280g Base Munich
130g 60.0L Crystal Malt
130g 1.8L Crystal Malt
130g Roasted/Toasted (melanoiden)

Adjust Mash pH DOWN:
Mash:
9.0g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4
0g Calcium Chloride/CaCl2
0g Epsom Salt/MgSO4
Sparge:
2.8g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4
0g Calcium Chloride/CaCl2
0g Epsom Salt/MgSO4

Adjust Mash pH UP:
0g Slaked Lime/ Ca(OH)2
0g Baking Soda/ NaHC03
0g Chalk/ CaCO3

Ca: 140 <- Palmer's recommended range 50-150
Mg: 23 <- Palmer's recommended range 10-30
Na: 16 <- Palmer's recommended range 0-150
Cl: 30 <- Palmer's recommended range 0-250
SO4: 316 <- Palmer's recommended range 50-350
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0,10 <- Below .77, May enhance bitterness

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 34
RA: -79
Estimated pH (room temp): 5,48 <- Palmer's recommended range 5.4-5.6


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