# Sulphury Smell Using Nottingham Ale Yeast



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

I've had an AG Maris Otter plus crystal plus pom hops fermenting for 3 days now using Nottingham. It has developed a definite sulphur nose, a bit more 'cabbagey' than the lager yeasts I have used.

You can pick it up as soon as you open the brew fridge. It's been below 20 the whole time. Skimmed it today whilst adding dry EKG and had a taste, the beer itself doesn't taste off.

I had boosted the water with calcium sulphate and magnesium sulphate (heaped tsp of each) and wonder if the sulphates might have anything to do with it. My 2 previous AGs have used liquid yeasts and smelt sweet as, and I'm wondering if this is can happen with Notto or might I be getting an infection.

Previous experiences of Notto users appreciated.


----------



## warra48 (14/1/09)

You add two heaped teaspoons of different sulphates to your water, and you wonder why it smells like sulphur?

I have used Nottingham quite a bit, and never noticed any sulphur smell during fermentation.


----------



## RobW (14/1/09)

warra48 said:


> I have used Nottingham quite a bit, and never noticed any sulphur smell during fermentation.



+1 ............... and I add CaSo4 to my mash too


----------



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

warra48 said:


> You add two heaped teaspoons of different sulphates to your water, and you wonder why it smells like sulphur?



To elaborate, the salts were gypsum and epsom salts which is a fairly standard addition for Pale Ales to harden the water and give some magnesium as well as calcium. In beers brewed at Burton, for example Marstons Pedigree, the high sulphates do give a slight sulphur nose that has been called, traditionally the "Burton Snatch", and I guess that true Burton yeasts should exhibit this behaviour.

My concern about the Notto is: On this occasion is the Nottingham sort of mimicking the processes that occur when a Burton yeast is doing its 'snatch' thing (bearing in mind that I only ever used Notto in kits n partials and never done any water treatment till now), or is something malicious going on here.

Doesn't sound too promising so far, see what it tastes and smells like in secondary. :huh:


----------



## kram (14/1/09)

Bribie, I regularly use 10gms Gypsum and 5gms Epsom Salts with carbon filtered Bris water and haven't notcied any sulphur, not that I was using Nottingham at the time though...

Just weighed up a heaped tsp of epsom salts... 5gms!


----------



## raven19 (14/1/09)

Bribie, is this a dry sachet of yeast, or a liquid sample from another yeast cake, or otherwise?

I have used both sachet and a sample of a yeast cake with no ill-effects. That being said during fermentation, I have noticed interesting smells (including some sulphur) in some of my beers (not necessarily using Nottinghams though) if I recall correctly. That being said, end product was fine.

Not sure I've been much help reading this now..., body is ready for a beer me thinks!

My 2c for what its worth.


----------



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

Fresh dried yeast packet from Ross's. If the brew makes it as far as bottling stage I'll bring one along to BABBs February meeting. The main worry is that, so far, my AGs during fementation have been as fragrant as a Vestal Virgin's and this seems to be a serious deviation. On the other hand this has been my first AG using a dried yeast, Notto, so that hopefully is all there is to it. 
Fingers crossed


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

Michael, I've used Notto in AG (in fact, I've only ever used it in AG), with no sulphury or vegetal smells.....

The main one I had isues with as far as vegetal odour was a facepalm moment, where I didn't extend the boil on a low gravity beer....(lower grav, lower flavour allows dms to poke its head through and be more easily detected at lower levels.) That one was a bit specific to what I was doing (edit: ultra low grav. 1028), and it didn't use notto, anyway....

Wayne (beerbelly) reckons that repitching nottingham has a higher than normal occurance of ped infection (though he never really gave me his reasoning on this), but that doesn't really fit with what your getting anyway. So kind of stumped.

Although I'm wondering if it's cos you've been playing with cooler ferment temps lately......vegetal dms is scrubbed by CO2, so a vigorous ferment will knock this on the head by it's very nature....a slower ferment with minimal co2 production, on the other hand, may not scrub the dms to below detectible levels? (he says more as an open question for pondering, not as a statement of fact....)


----------



## warra48 (14/1/09)

Let's remember that sulphur smells are a common occurrance with certain lager yeasts. ( Yes, I know this is about Nottingham).

I would think that if the beer is left long enough in primary, it should clean itself up.

Even after it is bottled/kegged, I'd venture it will eventually dissipate.


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

warra48 said:


> Even after it is bottled/kegged, I'd venture it will eventually dissipate.



True, time will tell. I have a keg that I primed instead of force carbed, which is on the end of my queue for this very reason. I'm hoping that time will dissipate it....


----------



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

Just popped my head in the ferment fridge and took a puff of gas right up the left nostril  and it's definitely more veggie than rotten egg, I wonder if this is the dreaded DMS, as the brew was a cubed nochill? I thought that DMS was supposed to be sweetcorn flavour, this is more like cabbage.

Edit: aha who can you trust if not good old Wikipedia, this could be the answer - I hope

_Dimethyl sulfide has a characteristic cabbage-like smell that becomes highly disagreeble at higher concentrations. DMS has a low olfactory threshold that varies from 0.02 to 0.1 ppm between different persons. However, it is also available as a food additive to impart a savory flavor; in such use, its concentration is low. Beetroot,[6] asparagus,[7] cabbage, corn and seafoods produce dimethyl sulfide when cooked._

Double Edit: might bump her to about 20 to flush???


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

mmm, excessive dms, particularly going from corn to cabbage with an increased intensity, may well be infection related.....


----------



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> mmm, excessive dms, particularly going from corn to cabbage with an increased intensity, may well be infection related.....



Bugger, I'll try a taste test on Friday and see how we're going.


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

not saying it is, of course, just putting it there as a possibility....

Everyone gets a shit batch from time to time, no matter how careful we are...its the nature of the game. I had 3 in a row (which were my first obviously nasty batches since my k&k days, which was a real kick in the wossnames. Complacency is a two edged sword. Although 2 of those 3 got rave revues form other brewers, they were sub par as far as I was concerned  ). Really shook my confidence, I must say. Latest batch has restored my faith (even if it is a seppo!).


----------



## Steve (14/1/09)

BribieG said:


> Bugger, I'll try a taste test on Friday and see how we're going.




I'd be tasting it now. Why wait until Friday?


----------



## Screwtop (14/1/09)

See if I can flush out a few Nottingham users here. I can usually pick a beer fermented using Nottingham, I use it a lot, but usually not in pale beers cos it stands out like dogs bollocks. Great in dark ales, in any case the aroma dissipates with a little time. It's just Nottingham yeast Bribie.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

Steve said:


> I'd be tasting it now. Why wait until Friday?



Tasted it about lunchtime when I put in the EKG and the wort itself tasted not too bad, just the nose. I've had lagers that smell like a Camel's groin when fermenting and have turned out great in the bottle. If on Friday the taste hasn't deteriorated and the nose has mellowed out I'll be reassured.


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

Interesting, screwy. I must admit, I haven't used it in pale beer (my regular recipes are pretty well all on the dark side), maybe thats got a gap in my knowledge, so I'll defer to you on this one.


----------



## domonsura (14/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Wayne (beerbelly) reckons that repitching nottingham has a higher than normal occurance of ped infection (though he never really gave me his reasoning on this), but that doesn't really fit with what your getting anyway. So kind of stumped.



    

Sorry Butters, but that's complete bullshit. I've never said anything of the sort about Nottingham whatsoever, to you or anyone else - I've never had anything but complete success with Nottingham, never a Sulphur during fermentation, and never an infection. I believe you have your conversations confused with someone else who knows nothing about Nottingham at all.


----------



## staggalee (14/1/09)

the hammeroids are playing up  

stagga.


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

domonsura said:


> Sorry Butters, but that's complete bullshit. I've never said anything of the sort about Nottingham whatsoever, to you or anyone else - I've never had anything but complete success with Nottingham, never a Sulphur during fermentation, and never an infection. I believe you have your conversations confused with someone else who knows nothing about Nottingham at all.



I must be getting confused, then....I recall talking with you about a batch that refused to drop bright....thats where this (admitedly hazy) memory is coming from...
Fair nuff, though. We'll put it down to bad memory and misunderstanding.


----------



## buttersd70 (14/1/09)

enough, you two. <_< 
Chill. Focus. Bribie has a problem. Can we help him? or not?


----------



## staggalee (14/1/09)

I`ve never noticed that with N/ham, tho I`ve only used it 3 times and each time at 17*.
I`m betting it will come out ok.

stagga.


----------



## domonsura (14/1/09)

Bribie, I've used Nottingham for probably a good 25 + brews, it has very occasionally with brew temps below 17 degrees smelt more yeasty as far as the smell it's putting out, perhaps that could be interpreted by someone else as sulphur. As I've mentioned already, I've never had an infection with Notts, it's all been clear sailing - some are a fan of it, others have espressed a dislike because of a perceived 'dusty' characteristic to the taste, whereas I don't tend to get that (which is not to say that it's not there, just that I don't get it.) I have usually found it to be a monster of a yeast, especially at 20 degrees where I routinely get massive krausen, huge amounts of CO2 with a very vigorous ferment finished in 2-3 days. I've had one knock over a 1.049 beer to 1.005 or so in 34 hours. Is it possible that because of the vigour of the ferment and large amounts of CO2 production that you are noticing a stronger smell? Otherwise I would possibly put it down to the additions, which I couldn't comment on as I don't make those kind of water adjustments (although Warra's comments seem to make sense to me). If usually your resulting fermented beer is sweeter in comparison, it may be that Nottingham had eaten a few more of the sugars than your usual yeasts, and as a result you have a much drier beer (higher attenuation) that you're not expecting or used to? It does tend to be a very hungry yeast, I have had one brew finish at 1.003 with it (mashed bang on 62 degrees for 70 minutes), and it was thin as p*ss because the yeast had eaten *everything*. 
Overall, it's a good reliable yeast - I think that it has in it's favour that it usually starts too fast & ferments too vigorously for any infection to be able to get a chance, so I recommend it to new brewers routinely - it removes the 'complication' that yeast can cause for brand spanking new brewers.


----------



## Bribie G (14/1/09)

Thanks guys.
That's exactly why I used Notto as the Wyeasts I have used up to now have been leisurely to say the least, and I needed a brew that would be home and hosed before I head for Sydney in twelve days time. I'm also going to do a 'crash' brew with Notto to put in cold conditioning in the fridge so it will be ready to bottle when I get home from Sydney second week in Feb. That's why the current situation has got me worried as it could derail my specific brewing plans (Want to give God a belly-laugh tell him your plans)  

Anyway I'll report back on Friday when, if the Notto is up to its reputation it should be ready for secondary and by that stage it should be obvious whether it's going to turn out as a drinkable brew or whether it's going downhill and should be turfed.


----------



## Bribie G (20/1/09)

Bump. 
I racked brew to secondary on Friday and it had lost nearly all its 'funky' nose. Then I made up a partial from a Coopers Lager tin, dex and a 5L cube of wort [I had done a full brew then split it in four to do four partials] and pitched a fresh packet of Nottingham. Not the same fermenter, incidentally. It's been bubbling since Sunday morning and guess what, it's getting THAT aroma again. <_< 

I had never noticed it before even though I have been using Notto with kits n bits in preference to the yeast on the tin. However I have only recently started brewing in my temp contolled dead fridge and I wonder if the veggie / sulphury smell is just a characteristic of Notto getting to work on a wort either AG or partial at 18 degrees as opposed to a Morgans whatever at 22 QLD autumn norm. I sort of doubt that it's Dimethyl Sulphide from cubing as the previous two brews using 1469 and 1768 were sweet as despite being no chill.

The original brew, the Welsh Ale, will be bottled next Monday before I head down to Sydney so I should get a good idea of what the matured beer should taste like, might take a bottle or two and try them after ten days. Might give a bottle to Quantocks and see if it kills him B) And the Partial will be in cold conditioning while I'm away so hopefully that will clean up any funky flavours.

With luck it's just been another wee bend in the road to brewing enlightenment :icon_cheers:


----------



## muckanic (22/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> mmm, excessive dms, particularly going from corn to cabbage with an increased intensity, may well be infection related.....



Except that the bacteria which are usually responsible often don't like hops, acidity, alcohol, etc. IOW, they tend to be wort spoilers rather than beer spoilers. One possibility no-one has mentioned yet: if too much trub gets into the brew, it can cause sulphury notes. As others have suggested, RDWHAHB: the sulphur usually scrubs out.


----------



## drsmurto (22/1/09)

Got a brew going at the moment with nottingham.

I cant smell sulphur

Could be the 1kg of ginger tho........


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/2/14)

Just a slight bump. I've been growing 1028 for 14 days. I poped the glad rap off after cold chilling it to decant into some test tubes and I received a ERY sulfur (egg) smell. 

Now this is from a 3lt flask. I've been adding low grav wort too. About 4X750 ml. I've been anal about sanitation. 
I just started a Nottingham 5g starter bf searching this subject. Now I'm paranoid. 

First pic the finished harvest.





Now the New starter;




Should I expect a sulfur smell from that?


----------



## jaypes (3/2/14)

With dry yeast you are much better to pitch more yeast rather than make a starter, its cheap and you wont run into any sanitation issues


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/2/14)

Ok cool. I'm just testing tbh.my main question is about the 1028 yeast tho.


----------



## dicko (3/2/14)

So far, no one has mentioned that one sachet of Notto in a 20 litre brew is a massive underpitch.
The correct rate is 1 gramm per litre.


----------

