# Do Yourself A Favour Brew A Real Beer A German Pilsner !



## Pumpy (12/10/09)

I really never thought a Pilsner could taste so good ( Others may say it dont )

If you are an AG brewer do yourself a favour and brew a German Pilsner ,

Perhaps being a Pomme ,I have a tendancy to be a 'lager lout' .

However there is nothing more satisfied than a Pilsner made by your own fair hands .

Beers that you can only stomach a couple of schooners thats OK 

bet a highly drinkable Pilsner that you only want to keep on drinking all night long is a real beer .

Pumpy


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## Zwickel (12/10/09)

Welcome to the club, Pumpy :icon_chickcheers: 

Pilsener belongs to my basic nutrition :icon_cheers:


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## Pumpy (12/10/09)

Zwickel said:


> Welcome to the club, Pumpy :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> Pilsener belongs to my basic nutrition :icon_cheers:




Zwickle I am a believer , following some early attempts I thought I could not brew them .

Pumpy


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## devo (12/10/09)

I do a Czech pilsner on a regular basis and has to be one of my favs in my AG arsenal.


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## WeaselEstateBrewery (12/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> If you are an AG brewer do yourself a favour and brew a German Pilsner ,



Preaching to the perverted! Perfect summer bier. What grain / hops did you use? I brewed a great one recently with Saaz (60 and 20 min) and Hallertauer (0 min). Can't remember the grain bill off the top of my head.


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## manticle (12/10/09)

Is a czech pilsner real?


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## PistolPatch (12/10/09)

Zwickel has pilsner on his corn flakes 

The best beer I have had in my life Pumpy was a pilsner brewed by Gryphon Brewing. He gave me 6 bottles and I tasted one every month or two for about 9 months. All of them were great but the last bottle was truly spectacular. I'm now working on devoting half of my fridge space to lagers and half of that to long-term lagering. Can't wait to taste the results. If it turns out to be half as good as that last bottle of Gryphon's I'll be pleased and anyone who comes around will get one glass only


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## devo (12/10/09)

manticle said:


> Is a czech pilsner real?



I dare you to ask a Czech and see what response you get to that question.


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## Ross (12/10/09)

What was your recipe Pumpy - I'm still to make a good pilsner  

cheers Ross


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## matti (12/10/09)

Tops Pumpy.
A bohemian pilsner is my next attempt.
Better get back to work aaargh


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## Fourstar (12/10/09)

Dont forget to add a decent dose of CaSO4 to help the hops pop and assist with the dryness. Otherwise (considering our low mineral content water here) its just a Czech Pilsner with the wrong hops! Water is the key to making a decent pilsner to style.

Planning an *Imperial *German Pilsner soon Something pushing 8% 65-70IBU. Should be quite the taste sensation. :beerbang:


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## manticle (12/10/09)

devo said:


> I dare you to ask a Czech and see what response you get to that question.



I would sooner eat sand.


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## Pumpy (12/10/09)

Ahhh I feel I am amongst freinds .

Weasle Estate Brewery they say there is only two types of Pilsner yeast ,a German one and a Budvar one .

Jamil's Pilsner( Revised 2 ) 


German Pilsner (Pils) 


Type: All Grain
Date: 14/08/2009 
Batch Size: 40.00 L
Brewer: Pumpy 
Boil Size: 47.96 L Asst Brewer: Pumpy 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment 40 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
7.76 kg Weyermann Pilsner (3.9 EBC) Grain 100.00 % 
62.00 gm Pearle [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.8 IBU 
35.00 gm Hallertauer [2.30 %] (15 min) Hops 2.4 IBU 
25.00 gm Hallertauer [2.30 %] (1 min) Hops 0.1 IBU 
1.00 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
2.12 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc 
21.13 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Pilsner Lager (White Labs #WLP800) Yeast-Lager 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.12 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 % 
Bitterness: 32.3 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 6.5 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 7.76 kg 
Sparge Water: 36.49 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
30 min Protein Rest Add 20.24 L of water at 54.0 C 50.0 C 
75 min Saccharification Heat to 65.6 C over 15 min 65.6 C 
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C


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## Fourstar (12/10/09)

Ross said:


> What was your recipe Pumpy - I'm still to make a good pilsner
> cheers Ross



Lets take a guess Ross... 
100% Pilsner malt? 
OG 1.050, 
30IBU of Hallertau @ 60 min 
5 IBU Hallertau 10mins? 
Low mash temp, 
Wyeast 2124 Bohemian
Cooooooold ferment @ 10deg. 

Looks like a winner to me!


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## Fourstar (12/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> 21.13 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc



:blink: Whaaa? Is that correct? Thats like 130ppm Ca and 330ppm SO4. Thats huuuuuuge!

Either way it would work at drying the arse out of a pilsner! The highest ive gone from memory was 250ppm of SO4 in my case swap AIPA and it was commented on being really dry. How the palate on it pumpy?


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## Pumpy (12/10/09)

Ross said:


> What was your recipe Pumpy - I'm still to make a good pilsner
> 
> cheers Ross




Ross the trick is to use a four litre starter in a 40 litre batch fermented at 10 C chill your wort down to 10 C to pitch at 

I dont think you need to do a diacetyl if you start and finish at 10 C you can if you want .

I filter when its finished and like Ross you said lager for four weeks if you can but I never can and dont think if you filter you need too 

Use WLP 830 , Danish Lageror or Budvaar yeast . for best results .

pumpy


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## Pumpy (12/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Lets take a guess Ross...
> 100% Pilsner malt?
> OG 1.050,
> 30IBU of Hallertau @ 60 min
> ...




Spot on Fourstar 

pumpy


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## MarkBastard (12/10/09)

Funny, I can drink more than 12 Guinness Extra Stouts in a session but I don't know if I could drink that much of a genuine Pilsner. I go off them very quick.


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## kabooby (13/10/09)

Nice one Pumpy.

I am still not happy with my Pilsners. I love my Vienna lagers but my Pilsners still dont come out how I like.

I must try this one

Kabooby


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## kabooby (13/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> :blink: Whaaa? Is that correct? Thats like 130ppm Ca and 330ppm SO4. Thats huuuuuuge!
> 
> Either way it would work at drying the arse out of a pilsner! The highest ive gone from memory was 250ppm of SO4 in my case swap AIPA and it was commented on being really dry. How the palate on it pumpy?



I think you will find that's for a 40L batch 4star

Kabooby


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

kabooby said:


> I think you will find that's for a 40L batch 4star
> Kabooby



 I know that, thats what i calculated it for. 1st off the figures where double that as i only calculated for 20-23L and i was double :blink: 
:lol: 
I wonder if that addition is correct. Considering i never really jump above 5g for 23L of beer with Gypsum or a max of 7g~Ca for a 23L batch.


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## lespaul (13/10/09)

Tried the Coopers 62 pilsner and really enjoyed it. How much different would a recipe be for that, anyone got any ideas?


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## Ragmans Coat (13/10/09)

Like pumpy i am a pom who does not mind a nice lager. Mine have been modified kits and not nice. Could you post some recipes of your best lagers foustar? You seem to be very knowledgable and helpful on this subject.


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

Ragmans Coat said:


> Like pumpy i am a pom who does not mind a nice lager. Mine have been modified kits and not nice. Could you post some recipes of your best lagers foustar? You seem to be very knowledgable and helpful on this subject.



Pumpys is spot on how i'd go about a german lager, see my previous recipe noted in this thread. Zwickel could shed some light on the subject too!

I had never brewed a light lager (or a lager at all) until going all grain. Personally i believe kit lagers are not up to scratch on the malt flavour/aroma side of things. Especially considering the malt aromas are usually non existant and consequently effect the flavour of the malt profile as well. To brew one with kits i would definitly go for doing a partial mash or atleast a big steep of carapils to try and get some of the malty/husky/grain aromas going to bulk up the kit.

If you must go a kit, id be looking at getting a Fresh Wort Kit and some extra LME or DME to sub it out to the correct OG. Water profile is critical to making a german pils or any light lager as the flavours can be delicate and faults stand out like dogs balls!

For a German Pils you NEED gypsum in it, it isn't the same otherwise, you want a drying beer with firm/crisp bitterness. For a Czech you need to keep the water as soft as possible (well atleast the sulfate) for rounded hop profile and malty balanced beer. 

The only issue i have with the FWK is you dont know what their water profile was at the time of brewing, i guess the same thing goes for a tin of goo too! Consequently you could go over the top with water additions.

My favourite lager ive brewed was my Munich Helles, im due for another soon. Adapted form the Brewing Classic Styles recipe. Next time i will up the CaCl to help push the malt profile a little more and drop the chalk i added to the boil, its simply not needed. 

For a Helles I'd go for a water profile with: Ca 100ppm~, Cl 150ppm~, SO4: 50ppm~ and everything else low. Here it is anyway.

Cheers! :icon_cheers: 


Helles 
Munich Helles 

Type: All Grain
Date: 14/04/2009 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Braden 
Boil Size: 30.90 L 
Boil Time: 60 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.0 

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) Grain 92.6 % 
0.30 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 5.6 % 
0.10 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 % 
35.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 20.7 IBU 
0.50 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
2.00 tsp Chalk (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Munich Lager (Wyeast Labs #2308) Yeast-Lager 

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 %
Bitterness: 20.7 IBU 
Est Color: 4.5 SRM 

Mash Profile
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 15.12 L of water at 71.9 C 66.0 C 60 min 
Mash Out Add 9.00 L of water at 93.9 C 75.6 C 10 min


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## petesbrew (13/10/09)

lespaul said:


> Tried the Coopers 62 pilsner and really enjoyed it. How much different would a recipe be for that, anyone got any ideas?


I was a big fan of the Tooheys Pils in my non brewing days. A step above the Extra Dry that I had got sick of.
Have you tried a Pilsner Urquell or any of the czech pilsners, Lespaul? (great name BTW)
Have another 62, then try an Urquell. 
Cheers
Pete


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

petesbrew said:


> I was a big fan of the Tooheys Pils in my non brewing days. A step above the Extra Dry that I had got sick of.



Until they changed from Saaz to Hallertau! <_<


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## kabooby (13/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> I know that, thats what i calculated it for. 1st off the figures where double that as i only calculated for 20-23L and i was double :blink:
> :lol:
> I wonder if that addition is correct. Considering i never really jump above 5g for 23L of beer with Gypsum or a max of 7g~Ca for a 23L batch.



I use the same water as Pumpy. We only have 14ppm of calcium in our water. 20g of gypsum only increases to 130ppm.

Kabooby


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## kram (13/10/09)

petesbrew said:


> Have you tried a Pilsner Urquell or any of the czech pilsners, Lespaul? (great name BTW)
> Have another 62, then try an Urquell.
> Cheers
> Pete


I agree. There are far better stand out Pilsners than 62. Not that 62 is a 'bad beer', just the typical thing that happens to your taste buds once you start homebrewing.


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

kabooby said:


> I use the same water as Pumpy. We only have 14ppm of calcium in our water. 20g of gypsum only increases to 130ppm.
> 
> Kabooby



Thats what i noted in my post  My concern was the Sulfate at 350ppm!


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## boingk (13/10/09)

Same reason I've never gone back for another case of Tooheys Pils; no more Saaz! Plus they dropped the alcohol content, the filty buggers.

- boingk


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## kabooby (13/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Thats what i noted in my post  My concern was the Sulfate at 350ppm!



I should read the thread properly shouldn't I, instead of skimming over it.

Sulfate levels are 5ppm before additions and about 230ppm after 20g of gypsum.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:


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## fraser_john (13/10/09)

I am gearing up for a Pils, want to lager it till Xmas and have it at the family BBQ.

Going to try a variety of new things to get it extra clean.


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## matti (13/10/09)

I must admit that it is a Royal PITA to get brew a good AG Pilsner.
Occasionally I have managed to produce great lagers but that real pils profile, not yet.

Maybe next time.


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## brettprevans (13/10/09)

fraser_john said:


> Going to try a variety of new things to get it extra clean.


like? not letting bara near it when its brewing? carn help us out with tips and tricks


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

kabooby said:


> I should read the thread properly shouldn't I, instead of skimming over it.
> Sulfate levels are 5ppm before additions and about 230ppm after 20g of gypsum.
> Kabooby :icon_cheers:



Not according to the Nomograph on the BABBS website (from memory the results on this are identical to beersmith) h34r: 

Oh, and its 21.13g


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> like? not letting bara near it when its brewing? carn help us out with tips and tricks



Water additions, CaCl and SO4(if brewing a german) help push the maltiness, maybe some melanoiden if you cannot be arsed with a decoction. Big pitching rate, racking from break material to secondary after growth stage, stable LOW temperature ferment (max 10 deg), BIG crash chill post ferment 2-3 days, filtration and a LONG COLD lager storage period in keg. 6 weeks minimum?!?!

That sounds like a decent regime.


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## fraser_john (13/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Water additions, CaCl and SO4(if brewing a german) help push the maltiness, maybe some melanoiden if you cannot be arsed with a decoction. Big pitching rate, racking from break material to secondary after growth stage, stable LOW temperature ferment (max 10 deg), BIG crash chill post ferment 2-3 days, filtration and a LONG COLD lager storage period in keg. 6 weeks minimum?!?!
> 
> That sounds like a decent regime.



Chatting with another brewer and might even try a -1c crash chill prior pitching and then racking off all trub (troob ha ha) prior to aerating and pitching.

Though trub is considered required for yeast nutrients, addition of yeast food should alleviate that and remove some of the components that contribute to flavours not needed in a good pils.


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## cdbrown (13/10/09)

I brewed up a bohemian pils as one of my first AG attempts. Currently sitting in the cube waiting for some fermenter time, but I'm hopeful it will be a nice drop, not expecting it to be a fantastic drop though. Will be using Wyeast 2278 Czech pils for it though.


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## Pumpy (13/10/09)

matti said:


> I must admit that it is a Royal PITA to get brew a good AG Pilsner.
> Occasionally I have managed to produce great lagers but that real pils profile, not yet.
> 
> Maybe next time.




Matti you have to do the 50 C protein rest it really makes a difference 

Pumpy


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## manticle (13/10/09)

cdbrown said:


> I brewed up a bohemian pils as one of my first AG attempts. Currently sitting in the cube waiting for some fermenter time, but I'm hopeful it will be a nice drop, not expecting it to be a fantastic drop though. Will be using Wyeast 2278 Czech pils for it though.




I have an AG smash pilsner/saaz with wyeast 2278 that's just been bottled. Single infusion mash (all I can really do at the moment), tasted like bread and grass out of the fermenter but beer changes so much with conditioning (current amazingly beautiful red ale tasted like vegemite just prior to bottling). It's destined for a case swap but I have a reserve in case she doesn't work out.


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## brettprevans (13/10/09)

manticle said:


> I have an AG smash pilsner/saaz with wyeast 2278 that's just been bottled. Single infusion mash (all I can really do at the moment), tasted like bread and grass out of the fermenter but beer changes so much with conditioning (current amazingly beautiful red ale tasted like vegemite just prior to bottling). It's destined for a case swap but I have a reserve in case she doesn't work out.


way to talk up your beer mate. cant wait to try botle vegimite :lol:
why cand you do step mash? just take some liquor out of the tun and heap it up to 90-100C and add back in. if it doesnt step the temp up enough just take more out. you'll probable need to heat up about 30L worth I recon for a 15C step. or just pump more hot water from the hlt into the mash.


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## manticle (13/10/09)

Thankfully the vegemite has passed but I swear it was there in the latter stages of fermenting. I was concerned. Recipe was the better red than dead and there's not a hint of that smeary black american owned crap they call Australian left in it.

I assumed step mash should only be done if you had a heating implement for your tun. I'm looking at doing a hefe in the very near future so is it ok if I pick your brain a little on this via PM?


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## brettprevans (13/10/09)

manticle said:


> I assumed step mash should only be done if you had a heating implement for your tun. I'm looking at doing a hefe in the very near future so is it ok if I pick your brain a little on this via PM?


yup no worries


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## crozdog (13/10/09)

for a german pils you need WLP 838 southern german lager :icon_chickcheers: .

Don't forget to diacetyl rest, rack it off then lager it as cold as you can for a couple of months before trying it.

Lager in a cube, fermenter or keg ie the whole batch - it doesn't work the same if you try it after its in a bottle (ask stuster ;-) )

Previously I have made the following which was simple & real tasty:
25l batch
OG 1.046
IBU 28

Pils 88%
Munich 10%
Carapils 2%

BSaaz - 23 ibu @ 60
Saaz - 4 ibu @ 20
Saaz - 1 ibu @ 0

Ive also done it with increased hops to 35 IBU which worked a bit better


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## Pumpy (13/10/09)

manticle said:


> I have an AG smash pilsner/saaz with wyeast 2278 that's just been bottled. Single infusion mash (all I can really do at the moment), tasted like bread and grass out of the fermenter but beer changes so much with conditioning (current amazingly beautiful red ale tasted like vegemite just prior to bottling). It's destined for a case swap but I have a reserve in case she doesn't work out.




Like the description manticle "tasted like bread and grass"

pumpy


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## Pumpy (13/10/09)

kabooby said:


> Nice one Pumpy.
> 
> I must try this one
> 
> Kabooby




I hope i have not Pumped this Pilsner up too much for Kabooby .

If he comes around for a sip ,

God he is so fussy, 

Well Hell I like it anyway .

Pumpy :unsure:


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> Matti you have to do the 50 C protein rest it really makes a difference
> 
> Pumpy



50deg protein temp!  How did you go for head retention and dextrins/body? With fully modified malt you should really avoid that temperature zone as you are denaturaing whatever medium chain protiens you have left. In future you should probabaly focus on a protein rest @ 55deg as this is the medium chain zone.


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## Pumpy (13/10/09)

kabooby said:


> I use the same water as Pumpy. We only have 14ppm of calcium in our water. 20g of gypsum only increases to 130ppm.
> 
> Kabooby




I wondered why the garden hose was hanging over the fence when i came home the other month and the water bill had gone up 

Pumpy :angry:


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## Pumpy (13/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> 50deg protein temp!  How did you go for head retention and dextrins/body? With fully modified malt you should really avoid that temperature zone as you are denaturaing whatever medium chain protiens you have left. In future you should probabaly focus on a protein rest @ 55deg as this is the medium chain zone.




Fourstar , I know but I oftem mash at 65C to try to get a bit more attenuation then stop when it is right .

It pours great a good head but easy to pour and always a bit of foam on top not excessive .

I did not do a 50C protein rest on this one but i will return to it .

I dont consider myself a real brewer until I can do a perfect Pilsner .

We should all aim for that goal !!!

It is a great drinker you dont want to stop now thats got to be a nice beer .

Pumpy


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## krusty_oz (13/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> 50deg protein temp!  How did you go for head retention and dextrins/body? With fully modified malt you should really avoid that temperature zone as you are denaturaing whatever medium chain protiens you have left. In future you should probabaly focus on a protein rest @ 55deg as this is the medium chain zone.



Does this have any effect on carapils in the grist? 

If it does I guess it could be added when mash temp is raised up into the 60's.


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## Tony (13/10/09)

I made this German pils about a year ago.

German Pils

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.90
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.88
Anticipated EBC: 7.5
Anticipated IBU: 37.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
96.3 10.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
2.8 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carahell Germany 1.035 26
0.9 0.10 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
200.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 35.9 45 min.
30.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 1.2 5 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP833 German Bock




My dad and i always have arguments over german/aussie becks. I recon the aussie stuff is shit and he recons its great...... better even.

Anyway, i put this on tap and it was FANTASTIC! 

he comes over and i pour his a glass saying this is what becks should taste like. 

HE says....... well we will see wont we.

He drank it quickly, meaning he liked it, and poured another saying nothing, meaning i was right.

we left it at that 

I plan to do this brew again this summer but with Saphire and its super low cohumulone levels...... might go to 40 IBU with it.

YUM!

cheers


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

like the malt bill there tony! :icon_drool2: Ive got to start using acidulated for my low SRM beers. I dont know if you have read it but im on a quest to brew a champagne coloured CAP, uber straw like. I think the only way i will get there is via acidulated, big protein rest and bucketloads of corn.


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## mje1980 (13/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> Fourstar , I know but I oftem mash at 65C to try to get a bit more attenuation then stop when it is right .
> 
> It pours great a good head but easy to pour and always a bit of foam on top not excessive .
> 
> ...




Good on ya pumpy, sounds yummy!. Don't listen to the "know alls", keep brewing that pils.


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## Fourstar (13/10/09)

mje1980 said:


> Good on ya pumpy, sounds yummy!. Don't listen to the "know alls", keep brewing that pils.



There is nothing wrong with knowing some science behind what you are doing, especially when you can end up with thin watery beer.


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## kabooby (13/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> I wondered why the garden hose was hanging over the fence when i came home the other month and the water bill had gone up
> 
> Pumpy :angry:



busted custard

Kabooby


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## kabooby (13/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> I hope i have not Pumped this Pilsner up too much for Kabooby .
> 
> If he comes around for a sip ,
> 
> ...


Not true Pumpy. I heard that your last dortmunder was an absolute cracker. 

Kabooby


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## Henno (13/10/09)

Am enjoying my first succesful Budvar pilsener at the moment. It's got that unique Urquell yeast taste. Would love to try a true German one next. I actually built my herms so I could do these styles of beer.

Here's a question for a pilsener new guy though. The Czech ones I have a handle on the as I've had a few Pilsen Urquell and Budvars etc. I used to enjoy the old Becks but never would have admitted it until a respected brewer mentioned it above.  Is the only difference between the German and Bohemian that you get the funky Czech yeast out of the Bohemians?

Excuse my ignorance.

For my Budvar I did my protein rest at 52 then a Beta @ 63 then an Alpha @ 72 before a 78 mash out. 100% pilsener grain under threat of death from Zwickel. The 48L batch got 52G of Northern Brewer for 80 minutes and am quite proud that upping the amount of Saaz I had to a whopping 170g as they were getting a bit old turned out well. Did not mess with my water much as it is quite soft.


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## Zwickel (14/10/09)

Henno said:


> .......
> For my Budvar I did my protein rest at 52 then a Beta @ 63 then an Alpha @ 72 before a 78 mash out. 100% pilsener grain under threat of death from Zwickel. The 48L batch got 52G of Northern Brewer for 80 minutes and am quite proud that upping the amount of Saaz I had to a whopping 170g as they were getting a bit old turned out well. Did not mess with my water much as it is quite soft.


Henno, old mate, thats my bread and butter beer, how did it turned out?
..... although youve used a lot of Saaz, 170g ......might be a little bit overloaded.

Id say, the secret of a good Pilsener beer lies mainly in the yeast handling. 

rule 1: pitch a lot of healthy yeast, at least 5% of the batch size, viscous yeast.
rule 2: pitch the yeast cold, say around 10C
rule 3: ferment cool, not over 12C

if you do so, a diacetyl rest is not necessary.

In case youd have not so much yeast and youd forced to pitch warm, do a diacetyl rest at the end.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## technocat (14/10/09)

matti said:


> I must admit that it is a Royal PITA to get brew a good AG Pilsner.
> Occasionally I have managed to produce great lagers but that real pils profile, not yet.
> Maybe next time.


You are not alone I have brewed a couple of batches of Pils and would only rate them fair, taste wise. I have made some great lagers over the winter but my Pilseners have been pretty ordinary.

<_<


----------



## neonmeate (14/10/09)

Tony said:


> I made this German pils about a year ago.



that looks bloody beautiful Tony 

what are people's thoughts on using lots of low alpha hops for bitterness in these beers, which ones get grassy when you use too much of em? which ones work in big amounts? i find saaz works really well in big amounts, but lots of hersbrucker can get like drinking a lawnmower.


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/10/09)

mje1980 said:


> Good on ya pumpy, sounds yummy!. Don't listen to the "know alls"



Quid Pro Quo... Because they usually only hear themselves. B) 

Warren -


----------



## floppinab (14/10/09)

Zwickel said:


> Id say, the secret of a good Pilsener beer lies mainly in the yeast handling.
> 
> rule 1: pitch a lot of healthy yeast, at least 5% of the batch size, viscous yeast.
> rule 2: pitch the yeast cold, say around 10C
> rule 3: ferment cool, not over 12C



I'd say there are a lot of things that will impact a Pils as detailed on this thread but for mine this has had the greatest impact. Getting a handle on doing good big starters at the right temps to generate enough good quality yeast (or find a local microbrewer happy to give his away B) ) for a cold pitch and ferment. Been very happy with my Pils since then.
A brewer on here from up Newcastle way.......... can't remember who it was...... also put onto using hopburst type additions (60, 45, 30, 15, 0), really brings out the best of those noble hops, Saaz or Hallertau.

Mmmmm, might even do another one this weekend.


----------



## jimmyjack (14/10/09)

I recently brewed a Cap that is one of the best brews I have put down. It is not German but has a German ting from the hops I used and a real quaffer

59% Weyerman Pilsner
30% Flaked Corn
5.5% Munich 2
5.5 Carapils
60 min Hallertau Mittlefrueh
15 min Saaz
Flameout Glacier
s189 Swiss

P rest at 55
S rest at 64
A rest 69
MO 75

Cheers

Jj


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

Looks Great JJ, I have to say CAP is one of my fav beers to make. Hoppy malty corny and very refreshing. Whats the glacier like in it?


----------



## Henno (14/10/09)

It actually turned out really nice Lothar. The reason for the huge amount of Saaz was because it had been in my freezer for over a year and was only 2.2%AA when I first got it so it doesn't taste overloaded at all.

I cheated a bit with this one with the yeast and made a single batch first. I then pitched the double batch straight onto the single yeast cake, Screwy's idea, thanks for that one mate. Interestingly the single turned out horrible and is about to go on the garden but the double is delicious.

I get the idea of pitching cold and fermenting cold but do the starters necessarily have to be built up cold? That is am I putting my stir plate in the fridge?


----------



## brettprevans (14/10/09)

no mash schedule Tony.


----------



## jbirbeck (14/10/09)

The first beer I brewed was a German Pils and it was nice, although due to a little inexperience it came out too strong and to be honest I'd probably tip it now.

I've done the german pils a couple of times since and have never been happy with them. I may give it another go shortly.


----------



## marksfish (14/10/09)

a german pils mashing as i type

6.00 kg wey pils
500 gm wey cara-pils
100 gm wey melanoidin
100 gm j.w wheat

mash hop 28 gm hall/hersbrucker plugs
10 gm perle 90 min
25 gm tettenang 90 min

est ibu 40 :beer:


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## floppinab (14/10/09)

Henno said:


> I get the idea of pitching cold and fermenting cold but do the starters necessarily have to be built up cold? That is am I putting my stir plate in the fridge?



In my very limited experience Henno, not cold in terms of normal lager temps, although you can do this, and will get enough yeast, but it will take longer to produce. I did one of mine in mid-summer, was probably 26 deg plus and the results were not good. I've found at around standard ale temps ~20 odd degs gets you a quick and quality result of enough good yeast to pitch.
I'm using a stir plate too by the way.


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## Henno (14/10/09)

So stir plate in the fridge then flopp? Sounds like a hassle to have the power lead hangin out of the fridge seal.


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

Henno said:


> So stir plate in the fridge then flopp? Sounds like a hassle to have the power lead hangin out of the fridge seal.



You're growing yeast, not brewing beer. Simply keep it at 20deg to build up cells, once its built up, crash chill and decant excess wort/beer thats estery/phenolic and not good for your beer then you can build up a starter if you wish at lager temps then pitch the active yeast.

Personally when i build up from a slant, i just do it at ambient (where its below 22 deg) then crash chill, decant and pitch at fermentation temp (make sure the wort is warmer than your starter or the same temp). I have no issues with the fermentation and attenuation, a little lag time but usually end up with the yeast profile i expected.


----------



## therook (14/10/09)

Tony 

How do you like the WLP833, I know TDA sleeps with it and loves it more than his missus

I dumped a big yeast cake of this onto my Pilsner Saturday morning at 8C and was firing away within an hour....

Can't wait to try it

Rook


----------



## floppinab (14/10/09)

Henno said:


> So stir plate in the fridge then flopp? Sounds like a hassle to have the power lead hangin out of the fridge seal.



Yep, mine pretty much lives in there, with the hair dryer in there during the winter and the fridge on in summer!!!! I've cut a little slot in the seal where the leads slip through.


----------



## T.D. (14/10/09)

Fourstar have you ever thought about writing a book?


----------



## therook (14/10/09)

T.D. said:


> Fourstar have you ever thought about writing a book?




I can see 4star sitting in Myers autographing books :icon_chickcheers: 

Rook


----------



## brettprevans (14/10/09)

therook said:


> I can see 4star sitting in Myers autographing books :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> Rook


screw myers. make it mrs parmas so we can all sit around and free load craft beers and parmas


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

therook said:


> How do you like the WLP833, I know TDA sleeps with it and loves it more than his missus



Bcok yeast hey... interesting The Wyeast equivilant is currently in their VSS, should have ordered one from Ross on my recent order. Sounds like a kickass yeast to use. sort of reminds me of the Munich Lager strain with higher alc tolerance. Maybe i can get dave to order one in for me. Or just order more stuff from Ross! 

*Wyeast 2487-PC Hella Bock Yeast* *Beer Styles:* Lager, Oktoberfest/Marzen, Munich Dunkel, Schwarzbier, Traditional Bock, Maibock/Hellesbock, Dopplebock, Eisbock *Profile: *Direct from the Austrian Alps, this strain will produce rich, full-bodied and malty beers with a complex flavor profile and a great mouth feel. Attenuates well while still leaving plenty of malt character and body. Beers fermented with this strain will benefit from a temperature rise for a diacetyl rest at the end of primary fermentation.
*Alc. Tolerance* 12% ABV *Flocculation* medium *Attenuation * 70-74% *Temp. Range* 48-56F (9-13C)





T.D. said:


> Fourstar have you ever thought about writing a book?


Ha! I'd be the last one capable of such a feat. ThirstyBoy seems to be more of the type to venture down that path, especially with the resources he has at his disposal. I did write a 3 part series about home brewing in RMIT catalyst student magazine lastyear. there where a few editing problems however <_< . E.g. Break was noted insted of Trub etc. 

The articles went from "what is homebrewing" + basic kit and kilo stuff, Full extract brewing and a recipe included was the next and the final part was a "what is AG brewing" and a wrapup with resources/references. It had a good reception and a few thumbs up emails sent to the editors which was good. Was the perfect audience. Uni students wantsing a cheap way to get drunk plus being able to make better beer. The onyl downside is i lost all of the writings on softcopy from a disk crash  all i have is hardcopies. I sure as hell aint writing those out again!


----------



## mje1980 (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> There is nothing wrong with knowing some science behind what you are doing, especially when you can end up with thin watery beer.




Knowing the science behind brewing is fine, commenting on someone's water treatment who lives 1000km's and another state away is a bit of a wank. Or maybe that's just me.


----------



## jimmyjack (14/10/09)

> Looks Great JJ, I have to say CAP is one of my fav beers to make. Hoppy malty corny and very refreshing. Whats the glacier like in it?




The Glaciar really smoothes out some of grassiness of the Saaz and gives it a really mild mellow lemon hint. Very Nice indeed


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

mje1980 said:


> Knowing the science behind brewing is fine, commenting on someone's water treatment who lives 1000km's and another state away is a bit of a wank. Or maybe that's just me.



Considering majority of the east coasts water supply is rather low in mineral content and alot of brewers are using rain water its quite easy to commment on someones adjustments. Worse so if it wasnt low in minerals imagine adding 20g of CaS04 to a water profile already laden with 100ppm Ca and 150ppm SO4. :unsure: It probabaly wouldnt be all that pretty on the palate, unless you like drinking dry chalky or astringent beer. 

My biggest interest (not gripe) was the 300 odd ppm of SO4 in the beer and what kind of profile it has given the final product. Its not a bad thing ro to be taken as a negative comment. Its within an acceptable range (for bitters and IPAs) just wanted to know what effect it has on a delicate beer like a pilsner. Personally i would never invision going above 150-200ppm in a German pils.

Fortunatly for those who drink my beer I don't consider water treatment to be a 'bit of a wank' when it contributes to 90 odd % of your beers make-up. 

Some think water adjustments are useless and it doesnt do much for the profile but the proofs in the pudding. I think so, and most of all I CAN taste the difference, not to mention the added benifits it has on wort pH and hop utilisation amoingst other things. 

You can brew a good beer without water additions but its very hard to brew excellent beer in a wide range of styles, consistently without it.

End rant.


----------



## Ragmans Coat (14/10/09)

Fourstar is contributing. not like you other mingers. He should work for a brewery


----------



## brettprevans (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> End rant.


ill have to pull you up there mate....you didnt type 'begin rant' 

fellas, I too have much more appreciation for water chemistry since reading all the extra bits and peices on it. its something that probably wont miss untill youve started doing it. or the differance between 4th and 1st in a compitition


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> End rant.




Haha Promise? :huh: 

Warren -


----------



## WitWonder (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Considering majority of the east coasts water supply is rather low in mineral content and alot of brewers are using rain water its quite easy to commment on someones adjustments. Worse so if it wasnt low in minerals imagine adding 20g of CaS04 to a water profile already laden with 100ppm Ca and 150ppm SO4. :unsure: It probabaly wouldnt be all that pretty on the palate, unless you like drinking dry chalky or astringent beer.
> 
> My biggest interest (not gripe) was the 300 odd ppm of SO4 in the beer and what kind of profile it has given the final product. Its not a bad thing ro to be taken as a negative comment. Its within an acceptable range (for bitters and IPAs) just wanted to know what effect it has on a delicate beer like a pilsner. Personally i would never invision going above 150-200ppm in a German pils.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with your comments fourstar, but in relation to that last sentence IIRC Asher has just one his third straight amatuer brewing title and I don't believe he does much in the way of water treatment, except filtering.


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> fellas, I too have much more appreciation for water chemistry since reading all the extra bits and peices on it. its something that probably wont miss untill youve started doing it. or the differance between 4th and 1st in a compitition



Good thing that the BJCP course covers it, you honestly dont know the benifits of water modification until you start doing it correctly (not just in the mash) instead ofjust dumping sulfate here and bicarbonate there or mere 'guesswork'. I'm glad i asked the water master about Dorts at the course CM2 as i have been tempted to add some carbonates in the boil for one. I dont think i'll be going in that direction now. A simple bulk up of Ca in the boil via CaCl and CaSO4 seems the best direction to take.


----------



## AndrewQLD (14/10/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> ill have to pull you up there mate....you didnt type 'begin rant'
> 
> fellas, I too have much more appreciation for water chemistry since reading all the extra bits and peices on it. its something that probably wont miss untill youve started doing it. or the differance between 4th and 1st in a compitition



Water chemistry and the use of salts for adjusting has made a huge difference to my brewing, I was fascinated by John Palmers talk last year at the ANHC and spent quite a bit of time reading as much as I could on the subject over the following few months.
A few successes this year in the comp department along with my own testing of brews with and without additions has led me to be a firm believer in the benefits you can gain from this (fairly) simple procedure.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Haha Promise? :huh:
> Warren -



Only for a short while! Or do you want me to quantify that one as well?  



WitWonder said:


> I don't disagree with your comments fourstar, but in relation to that last sentence IIRC Asher has just one his third straight amatuer brewing title and I don't believe he does much in the way of water treatment, except *filtering.*



For a start, filtering/carbon treatment is one of the best thigns you can do if you do not add salts. It can be very benificial especially for stripping out chlorine. I dont know what WAs water profile/s are like and/or the styles Asher likes to brew. They may be within a specific Colour and IBU spectrum. Once again sorry, can't comment on that one. If he doesn't do any water treatment and is getting good results, it means he is good at what he does. With water adjustment, he could probabaly still be adding a few extra poitns to his flavour scores by doing it.

Im not sure what WA is like but Vicbrew had 400 odd entries, 36 in the pale ale category. I can bet my bottom dollar water modification or the "correct water profile" for the style was used in atleast 1/3-1/2 of the top 7-10 beers in that category. Also not a 5~ point score per judge (out of a aggregrate of 150) was the difference between 1st and 10th place As CM2 noted, water modification can be the difference between 1st and 4th place in a big competition and especially for the nationals.


----------



## brettprevans (14/10/09)

Tony said:


> I made this German pils about a year ago.





citymorgue2 said:


> no mash schedule Tony.


im still waiting on Tony's mash schedule


----------



## mika (14/10/09)

WitWonder said:


> I don't disagree with your comments fourstar, but in relation to that last sentence IIRC Asher has just one his third straight amatuer brewing title and I don't believe he does much in the way of water treatment, except filtering.



Not quite true, talk to the man. I'm sure he'd be happy to divulge his method.


----------



## randyrob (14/10/09)

mika said:


> Not quite true, talk to the man. I'm sure he'd be happy to divulge his method.



He also mashes facing mecca..WWAD!


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

randyrob said:


> He also mashes facing mecca..WWAD!



Hahaha.

classic.


----------



## matho (14/10/09)

ok some of you lager guys might be able to help, the only thing that is stopping me doing lager's is getting the wort to pitching temp
i have a counterflow chiller that gets the wort to about 4 deg of the tap water which at the moment the tap water is about 14deg.
how do you guy's get the wort down to pichting temp do you have better chiller's or do you put the fermenter in a temp controlled fridge until it is a the right temp then pitch?

your advice would be greatly appreciated

cheer's matho


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

matho said:


> how do you guy's get the wort down to pichting temp do you have better chiller's or do you put the fermenter in a temp controlled fridge until it is a the right temp then pitch?



Answered it yourself. I cube my beer, pop the cube and yeast starter into the fridge overnight, the next day i transfer to the fermenter, decant excess wort/beer from the starter, rouse and pitch yeast at fridge temp, close the lid and forget about it for a fortnight!


----------



## AndrewQLD (14/10/09)

That's pretty much it matho, I cool through my plate chiller, up here that's down to about 20 and then into the fridge for few hours to get it down to pitching temp.

Andrew


----------



## matho (14/10/09)

thanks for that ive been wanting to do a lager for a while now but didn't know if that was a good way of doing it

cheer's matho


----------



## Asher (14/10/09)

I'm on the same mission as Fourstar..... To brew the lowest EBC (I just completed the BJCP exam and am struggeling with my units...) lagers possible. Hell! its what got me into AG in the first place.

My water chemistry cupboard consists of a bit more than replacement carbon filters.
CaSO4
CaCL
Sodium Met
Ph 5.2
Citric Acid

I haven't had a great deal of time since last years ANHC to get my head around Chloride to Sulphate ratios etc. and their importance. Currently using the Dr Kurts rule of thumbs for most of my adjustments. But am under know doubt that water plays pivotal role in perfecting beer styles.

The next step on my brewing ladder..

Asher





Kinda nice to read some informative stuff from a thread started by Pumpy


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

Asher said:


> I'm on the same mission as Fourstar..... To brew the lowest EBC (I just completed the BJCP exam and am struggeling with my units...) lagers possible. Hell! its what got me into AG in the first place.



If you want to bounce ideas areound, you know where the PM button is


----------



## Ross (14/10/09)

Well there you go - 2 of the best home brewers in the country both adjusting water profiles  

You can make good beer without, but there's no doubt IMO that it's a critical element in making the best beer possible.

Something I need to pay a little more attention to.

Cheers Ross


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

Ross said:


> Something I need to pay a little more attention to.
> Cheers Ross



You sell the stuff but dont use it/often! As they say "Shame Shame Shame"

Got the filter, yeast and CaSO4 safe and sound today Ross. Giving her a test run on my keg of Hargreaves Hill inspired ESB with before and afters. Interested to see the final result!

Cheers!


----------



## mje1980 (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> Considering majority of the east coasts water supply is rather low in mineral content and alot of brewers are using rain water its quite easy to commment on someones adjustments. Worse so if it wasnt low in minerals imagine adding 20g of CaS04 to a water profile already laden with 100ppm Ca and 150ppm SO4. :unsure: It probabaly wouldnt be all that pretty on the palate, unless you like drinking dry chalky or astringent beer.
> 
> My biggest interest (not gripe) was the 300 odd ppm of SO4 in the beer and what kind of profile it has given the final product. Its not a bad thing ro to be taken as a negative comment. Its within an acceptable range (for bitters and IPAs) just wanted to know what effect it has on a delicate beer like a pilsner. Personally i would never invision going above 150-200ppm in a German pils.
> 
> ...



You either misread my post, or turned it around to suit yourself. I have no problem with water adjustment, most of my beers have water adjustments made, but i dont criticise other people's water adjustments, especially those who, like i said, live in a different state to me. THAT'S what i find to be a wank. But, hey take it how you want to. 

Cheers


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

mje1980 said:


> I have no problem with water adjustment, most of my beers have water adjustments made, but i dont criticise other people's water adjustments.



At what point did i criticise? I actually asked what it did for the flavour profile! Point it out to me and i'll shutup.


----------



## manticle (14/10/09)

To move slightly in a left direction when is someone going to contribute an article to the wiki section on decoction mashing and another on water additions?


----------



## mje1980 (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> At what point did i criticise? I actually asked what it did for the flavour profile! Point it out to me and i'll shutup.



Whaaa? Is that correct? Thats like 130ppm Ca and 330ppm SO4. Thats huuuuuuge!

Either way it would work at drying the arse out of a pilsner! The highest ive gone from memory was 250ppm of SO4 in my case swap AIPA and it was commented on being really dry. How the palate on it pumpy? 

I know that, thats what i calculated it for. 1st off the figures where double that as i only calculated for 20-23L and i was double 

_I wonder if that addition is correct_. Considering i never really jump above 5g for 23L of beer with Gypsum or a max of 7g~Ca for a 23L batch.


----------



## manticle (14/10/09)

Mate I see your point but I'm fairly certain fourstar didn't mean it in an "oh my god your beer's gonna be so shit now you loser why did you do that crap brewer" kind of a way.


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

I guess you dont understand what criticisim means. All of that noted as 'criticisim' where observations. Criticisim would be " Pumpy, you made the wrong decision by adding 21g of gypsum and making your SO4 content >300ppm." When infact that is not the case, 300ppm of SO4 is still a safe zone, just high.

You obviously had no idea... 

Can we bring this topic back on track? Hopefully the mods have the sense to remobe all of this babble.


----------



## Ecosse (14/10/09)

mje1980 said:


> Whaaa? Is that correct? Thats like 130ppm Ca and 330ppm SO4. Thats huuuuuuge!
> 
> Either way it would work at drying the arse out of a pilsner! The highest ive gone from memory was 250ppm of SO4 in my case swap AIPA and it was commented on being really dry. How the palate on it pumpy?
> 
> ...


Can't imagine that Pumpy survived that withering criticism. The cheek of Fourstar, actually asking how the beer tasted and offering an opinion


----------



## mckenry (14/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> I guess you dont understand what criticisim means. All of that noted as 'criticisim' where observations. Criticisim would be " Pumpy, you made the wrong decision by adding 21g of gypsum and making your SO4 content >300ppm." When infact that is not the case, 300ppm of SO4 is still a safe zone, just high.
> 
> You obviously had no idea...
> 
> Can we bring this topic back on track? Hopefully the mods have the sense to remobe all of this babble.



I see what you mean Fourstar. I can also see the other side. A lot of your posts come across as a little bit 'I know better than you' and 'I know more than you' instead of 'here's some help'.
It's just your writing style and enthusiasm that is getting to some.
Hope this helps.
mckenry


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/10/09)

I think in defence of mje he's probably a little cynical of people "theorising" over the water profile of another city that certain posters have not utilised in actual practice.

And fourstar for the record I think that quoting "babble" by yourself I find really laughable. Asking the mods to remove it just smacks of arrogance.  

Just for the record I've been doing AG beers for 12 years and claim to know very little about water chemistry so I won't try and post out of my depth other than to say you can make perfectly good lagers without altering it (that I can say in practice). Not to say they can't be better without it I just don't think it's necessary is all.

However if you can safely claim you know what you're doing good luck to you.  

Warren -


----------



## Fourstar (14/10/09)

mckenry said:


> A lot of your posts come across as a little bit 'I know better than you' and 'I know more than you' instead of 'here's some help'.
> It's just your writing style and enthusiasm that is getting to some.



I can understand that, especially when you have answered the same question X amount of times, responses get shorter and less detailed as you go on. I usually like to make my answers blunt and to the point because of it, no need to ramble on for paragraphs on end. Saying that i could always not comment at all, but what would be the point of posting on here. But yes i can see your side of view (and probabaly everyone elses) Heck, SWMBO has even said to me 'wow that looks rough' when im correcting someones comments, when i look at it it seems rather mild. I guess it shows why im a Network Engineer and not a Author.  Time to find a cave i think. 

Oh, Warren. I understand where mje is coming from RE experience with the water but the water profile i was woriking it off, all minerals where less than <5ppm so i think the theorising i was doing was substansiated. Then again people dont mind firing off comments when they are unsubstansiated so maybe i shoudlnt have bothered to go to the trouble of using a nomograph and actually calculating these figures to confirm my assumptions.

Heck, you're happy to pull me up and ask for an explanation when i dont. Then again ive only been brewing 6 out of your 12 years so i could potentially know only 1/2 of what you do.

Then again im probabaly reading all of the wrong books and online references. Back to my Coopers Can and Brewcraft Manual.

*coasts his beer on "designing great beers". :lol: 


So out of all of this. Pumpy, whats the flavour/mouthfeel like with the Ca and SO4 content? Drying? Are the hops ok? Still havn't got an answer to wether or not its ok to push the SO4 figures this high with a Pilsner yet.

Cheers


----------



## mje1980 (15/10/09)

Fourstar said:


> I can understand that, especially , responses get shorter and less detailed as you go on. I usually like to make my answers blunt and to the point because of it, no need to ramble on for paragraphs on end. Saying that i could always not comment at all, but what would be the point of posting on here. But yes i can see your side of view (and probabaly everyone elses) Heck, SWMBO has even said to me 'wow that looks rough' _when im correcting someones comments_, when i look at it it seems rather mild. I guess it shows _why im a Network Engineer and not a Author_.  Time to find a cave i think.
> 
> Oh, Warren. I understand where mje is coming from RE experience with the water but the water profile i was woriking it off, all minerals where less than <5ppm so i think the theorising i was doing was substansiated. Then again people dont mind firing off comments when they are unsubstansiated so maybe i shoudlnt have bothered to go to the trouble of using a nomograph and actually calculating these figures to confirm my assumptions.
> 
> ...



_when you have answered the same question X amount of times_

He didn't ask for an evaluation of his water treatment. He's obviously happy with how its going.

_when im correcting someones comments_

Why did they need "correcting"?. Obviously they were wrong according to you.

_why im a Network Engineer and not a Author_

I have no idea what this has to do with this thread, or beer in general.




Nest time i'll just flick by your post. Maybe it is just your writing style. 

Pumpy, sorry for ruining your thread, i'll let fourstar have the last word.


----------



## Fourstar (15/10/09)

mje1980 said:


> _when you have answered the same question X amount of times_
> He didn't ask for an evaluation of his water treatment. He's obviously happy with how its going.
> - No he didnt and its quite obvious he is happy with the results! I was asking as i was interested in what a high SO4 content does to a German pilsner.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trough Lolly (15/10/09)

Pumpy said:


> Ahhh I feel I am amongst freinds .
> 
> Weasle Estate Brewery they say there is only two types of Pilsner yeast ,a German one and a Budvar one .
> 
> ...



G'day all,
Nice recipe Pumpy. Jeez, I thought you would have been a "lager lout" from way back!
If pale lagers are in your sights, I'll see if I can dust off my old and gold Dortmunder recipe "Yabba Dabba Dortmunder".

It's been a while since I lasted visited AHB so I'll keep my head down for the moment re the Water Chemistry discussion!

 

Cheers,
TL


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## T.D. (15/10/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Just for the record I've been doing AG beers for 12 years and claim to know very little about water chemistry so I won't try and post out of my depth other than to say you can make perfectly good lagers without altering it (that I can say in practice). Not to say they can't be better without it I just don't think it's necessary is all.



I couldn't agree more. I think water chemistry is something that should be tweaked a bit once you are confident you have everything else (things that are more important like the ingredients, brewing method and recipe formulation) sorted out. I think all too often people give things like water chemistry WAAAY too much emphasis. I have made everything from stouts to czech pilsners using unaltered Sydney water and have never been left thinking "dammit, if only I'd added 5g of gypsum" or whatever.

If people want to vigorously debate water chemistry then that's their choice, but I find the whole thing a bit tedious!


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## mika (15/10/09)

T.D. said:


> ....
> If people want to vigorously debate water chemistry then that's their choice, but I find the whole thing a bit tedious!



Then why post ?
It's a bit like posting, 'KnK is a waste of time' in every KnK/Extract thread.


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## warrenlw63 (15/10/09)

mika said:


> Then why post ?
> It's a bit like posting, 'KnK is a waste of time' in every KnK/Extract thread.



Why post?

Because it's an opinion (more likely based on experience) from the other side of the fence. Secondly I don't think that pumpy's post ever mentioned water treatment until fourstar made the whole thread all about him. 

So in the end his post was of more merit than yours.  

Warren -


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## T.D. (15/10/09)

mika said:


> Then why post ?



I could ask you the same question. At least what I said has a point...


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## manticle (15/10/09)

How did a thread on German Pilsener turn into an online slap fest?

I'm more interested in the lager making process and the recipes that were described in the first few pages than most of this other nonsense. Discussions on water chemistry are also interesting to people like myself who know nothing about it.

More brewing, less bitching.


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## brettprevans (15/10/09)

manticle said:


> How did a thread on German Pilsener turn into an online slap fest?


a cross over from slapping of lederhosen? 

im still waiting on Tony to answer my question on mash temp


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## Effect (15/10/09)

So were I to do myself a favour and brew a german pilsner...what recipe should I use? I've never ever ever done a lager before, but there is always a first.

I have drunk many a german pilsner (when I was living in germany) but I was only 18 and just drank whatever was available...didn't really give a hoot what it was. The last german pilsner I have had was the Weihenstephan Pilsner. I actually wanted to buy the knappstein reserve lager, as I had had it a week before and had a craving for it. I thought it was fruity and smooth, refreshing and an easy drinker. So I am sitting down with two beers, I crack open the Pilsner and pour it into the glass. The head on this was so lovely, nice tight little bubbles...just amazing. Then onto the knappstein reserve lager...harsh and yucky...a mile away from the pilsner - so I can understand pumpy's 'do yourself a favour and brew a german pilsner' - I really felt that if I were to brew a beer this good, I could die happy 

So...how's about a Pilsner recipe... (edit: a recipe that is close to the weihenstephan pilsner if possible)

And fourstar, can you recommend a water profile for me? I'll pm you the adelaide water profile thingo.

Cheers
Phil


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## Trough Lolly (15/10/09)

T.D. said:


> I couldn't agree more. I think water chemistry is something that should be tweaked a bit once you are confident you have everything else (things that are more important like the ingredients, brewing method and recipe formulation) sorted out. I think all too often people give things like water chemistry WAAAY too much emphasis. I have made everything from stouts to czech pilsners using unaltered Sydney water and have never been left thinking "dammit, if only I'd added 5g of gypsum" or whatever.
> 
> If people want to vigorously debate water chemistry then that's their choice, but I find the whole thing a bit tedious!



I can't disagree with your logic, but perhaps there's another issue that's been overlooked regarding water chemistry...

Water chemistry, as boring or exciting as you wish to make it, is more about trying to emulate all of the conditions that go into making truly unique beers. We can't simply grab 10 gallons of Dublin water and do up a Guinness clone - but if we want to get that unique flavour profile of the water (as well as the hops, grain and yeast) we can do something to our home water and make some adjustments to the mineral profile. 

Sure, you can make outstanding stouts without pfaffing around with water chemistry, but sometimes I do like to toss in some chalk or gypsum if I really want to get a touch closer to the real thing when I want to make a dortmunder or special bitter....its not too dissimilar in logic to why some extract brewers decide to switch to all grain - but it's certainly not compulsory!

Cheers,
TL


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## manticle (15/10/09)

One thing that interests me though is that traditional water profiles are such because that what was available. Could you potentially make a stout BETTER by (for example) softening the water or using the water that's local to you? Does hard water by necessity make stout work better or just make emulation easier?


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## matho (15/10/09)

manticle said:


> One thing that interests me though is that traditional water profiles are such because that what was available. Could you potentially make a stout BETTER by (for example) softening the water or using the water that's local to you? Does hard water by necessity make stout work better or just make emulation easier?



mate read john palmers info on residual alkalinity it basically says that there are certain beer colour's that certain water profiles can brew the carbonate's in dublin mean's that they needed the dark malts to drop the ph in the mash to be able to brew a good beer.
palmer's chapter on water chemistry can be a little daunting i keep on telling my self to sit down and read it from begining to end but i can't ill have to try again soon.

cheer's matho


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## manticle (15/10/09)

Yeah I've glanced over that. Need to give it more time as water chemistry is something I'll be heading towards in the near future. Just been getting my head around AG mashing and soon about to attempt some decoction. WC is next.

However in Palmer it suggests that because of the water they had to use dark malts because light ones wouldn't convert due to water hardness. Likewise the soft water of pilsner might struggle to cope with the darker ones.

However my question is: while the dark malts are need for hard water, is hard water needed for dark malts?

Also I'm assuming they need to mash base malt as well as dark to make beer effectively but the dark malts just helped drop the pH.


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## Trough Lolly (15/10/09)

manticle said:


> One thing that interests me though is that traditional water profiles are such because that what was available. Could you potentially make a stout BETTER by (for example) softening the water or using the water that's local to you? Does hard water by necessity make stout work better or just make emulation easier?



That's a difficult question to answer, since it comes down to your own determination of what's best for you...for example, you might prefer to drink dark ales, stouts and porters that don't have a minerally flavour profile.

Many beers become famous because they are brewed the same way over decades or indeed, centuries, using the local water. As matho suggests, some compounds will change the mash pH which in turn will make subtle changes to the end product. For example, I use very soft water here in Canberra and I used to struggle getting a decent conversion with my stouts, porters, schwartzbiers etc. Then I fiddled with the mash pH by adding some Calcium Carbonate or Bicarb of Soda to push up the mash pH and I found I obtained significantly better conversion. That said, I never ever added any chemicals to my mashtun when I made pale ales and lagers thanks to the soft water - unless I wanted to try to emulate the waters of Dortmund etc etc. So, it was more a matter of knowing what I was making the beer with and adjusting the water profile - if I need to or could be bothered!

Although I had better conversions with my dark beers by chemically changing the mash pH, I'm not inferring that I necessarily made a better beer. 

Getting back to your original question, I think it would be a pretty harsh judge who would criticise your stout on the basis of the water profile - assuming you aren't using foul water to begin with! With enough practice, it is possible to identify hops used in a beer (memories of an excellent evening at Ross's house many moons ago readily come to mind!) and in some cases, the yeast strain, but water chemistry is possibly a bridge too far!! 

In my particular instance, I do find my stouts are better when I treat my water, but that's only because my water is so soft and the darker grists seem to do better in the mashtun when I add a teaspoon or so of the right compound. That may not necessarily apply to fellow brewers in Adelaide, or Perth or Melbourne etc etc...And lets face it, you can have the best water profile in the universe and easily stuff up a batch with crap yeast, or stale hops etc etc, so it gets back to my original mantra - fresh ingredients, temperature control and patience! Sounds like a new album title from the Foo Fighters!!  

Cheers,
TL


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## manticle (15/10/09)

I think melbourne water is supposed to be pretty soft also. haven't examined it but something I recall suggests it's actually very similar to Plzen.

Only done one AG stout. Came out great to my tastes and others but I will only really be able to tell when I start playing around with water additions and do one with and one without for comparison.

It's a subject that interests me but has been one of those bits of technical knowledge that I've put aside until I'm happpy with my more basic processes.

How does water differ for say RIS or baltic porter and Dry Irish stout?


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## Fourstar (16/10/09)

Phillip said:


> And fourstar, can you recommend a water profile for me? I'll pm you the adelaide water profile thingo.


Happy to. 



manticle said:


> However my question is: while the dark malts are need for hard water, is hard water needed for dark malts?



Simple way of looking at it. Residual Alkalinity will determine the colour of your beer. Low or Calcium HARD water with no alkalinity, very light beers. Excessive alkalinity compared to hardness = Darkest beers.

You actually need *unbalanced *alkaline rich water(HCO3) or a higher alkalinity than permanent hardness (Ca and Mg) for the dark malts to buffer the alkalinity and vice verca. If you have balanced Alkalinity (HCO3) and permanent hardness(CA and Mg), it is possible to brew lightish beers as famously shown by burton water profiles being rich in Ca, Mg, HCO3. With these balanced minerals you have got balanced mineral rich water which is perfect for british IPAs and bitters. Also thrown in is a big whack of SO4 for the hoppiness (SO4, Cl and Na do not effect the balancing act). Another profile similar to Bruton is Dortmund. See link to give you an idea. http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html

A good rule of thumb (i find) is to have double the HCO3 content of Ca and Mg combined (mg not so much but Ca:HCO3 ratio 1:2) to brew dark/black beers such as stouts, RIS, Porters etc. Lighter beers or amber beers you can get away with a balanced profile or slightly alkaline ratio 2:3. Also, no matter how dark the beer is, there is no real need to surpass 250ppm of HCO3 as there is only so much buffering the malt can do with the alkalinity and hardness.



manticle said:


> I think melbourne water is supposed to be pretty soft also. haven't examined it but something I recall suggests it's actually very similar to Plzen.
> 
> How does water differ for say RIS or baltic porter and Dry Irish stout?



Yep, thats correct we have SFA minerals in our water like Plzen (if you are using mains water of course, not bore water.)

For our purposes, water for a RIS or Irish will probabaly only differ for the flavouring minerals, SO4, Cl and Na. I think i read somewhere recently high amounts of S04 and a high RA can cause harsh bitterness. Will have ot doube check that however.


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## T.D. (16/10/09)

Might be worth splitting this thread in two as its almost entirely moved onto water chemistry now...


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