# Castor Sugar?



## j1gsaw (12/3/09)

*I found a pack of castor sugar in the pantry... would this be alrite to use instead of dex?
It would just be finer sugar but do the same job i imagine?
Would it affect alc? cheers
*


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## schooey (12/3/09)

If you are using it for priming it'd be fine, but I wouldn't be using it for starters


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## Fermented (12/3/09)

Yes, it will increase the ABV%.

Are you planning to use it in a wort or for priming bottles?

Cheers - Fermented.


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## j1gsaw (12/3/09)

I was going to use it in the wort actually.. and if it raises alc... woo hoo!


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## mickoz (12/3/09)

j1gsaw said:


> I was going to use it in the wort actually.. and if it raises alc... woo hoo!


If you like cidery beer use heaps :icon_vomit:


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## Punkal (12/3/09)

I have a friend that uses it in bottle priming when he wants a little more carbonation and it seems to work well for him. :icon_cheers:


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## Fermented (12/3/09)

High alc seems like a nice thing, but it isn't always. Flavour and other things are a higher priority for the most part. HB is more about quality than getting nuked. Although it can be a pleasant accidental (cough) side effect. 

I'm guessing that castor sugar will give something similar to the 'cidery taste' that a lot of people who did the old kit + kilo of sugar had. 

I've heard some folk use it for bottle priming (you need to search out the weight by volume for doing this) and it has no significant ill effect on the flavour. Priming adds 0.5% to ABV% anyway. 

Dex is corn sugar, good ole CSR and the like is cane sugar (sucrose). Castor sugar is just a finer grind of plain old white sugar as far as I know. Cane sugar = cidery taste. 

HTH. 

Cheers - Fermented.


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## dr K (13/3/09)

> Cane sugar = cidery taste.





> If you like cidery beer use heaps



I am, and have for many years, been at a loss as to what exactly it is about sucrose (cane sugar, caster sugar, beet sugar etc) that leads to a cidery taste.
Perhaps some of the many who push this out could illuminate me somewhat...?
Sucrose is not all that fermentable (tell CUB and N-L that) but our friend invertase a child of yeast cells busts up the di to make two mono's, glucose (dextrose) and fructose, now yes glucose is taken up marginally quicker than fructose but both follow the same pathway to result in our mate ethanol.
A cidery taste (especially for non cider drinkers) covers a huge spectrum, just as beery taste does for non beer drinkers.
Could it be acetaldehyde (an immediate pre-cursor of ethanol) that typically has a green apple aroma caused by incomplete fermentation or even an (heaven forbid) infection.
Could it be a lack of free amino nitrogen (FAN) in the wort , common in old fashioned poor quality kits thus degrading yeast performance, leading to incomplete fermentation (as above).
Could it just be clagged out yeast (as both above).
Yes, any of the above, but nothing to do with sucrose (cane sugar, caster sugar, beet sugar etc) that leads to a cidery taste.
Unless of course 
One or some of the many who push this out could illuminate me somewhat...?

K


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## Carbonator (13/3/09)

In the end, the bi-products of fermentation that are harmful are there with cane sugar, white, brown, castor and icing. Dextrose-Monohydrate has not got these bi-products that cause blindness, etc.

Pectins and Methanol are very bad.

Flame suit is ON!


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## Adamt (13/3/09)

I believe the "no sugar" sentiment is aimed at kit brewers who use kit yeasts, which lack the population and/or nutrients to properly handle sucrose and mop up by-products.

EDIT: Castor sugar is just finer white sugar. If you're going to use castor sugar you may as well use white sugar, it's cheaper. Eventually you'll realise brewing beer is not about alcohol - but about taste - and I hope this happens before your liver is mush.


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## bconnery (13/3/09)

I offer no hard evidence for this, just some theories, but I'm starting to believe the cane sugar = cider taste myth, and yes I do call it a myth, people use sugar in all manner of brews without that taste, actually resulted from high fermentation temps and kit yeasts. 

In the past, and still even now, many people were told to add a kilo of sugar, or thereabouts, and ferment at almost any temp, up to 35C even. This definitely does result in a cidery taste. 
I had a taste of someone's first home brew recently and actually mistook it for a cider. I thought they'd grabbed a brigalow cider kit or something similar...

Now, and here's where I get very much into conjecture, as brewers get more into the process they often start changing yeasts, lowering fermentation temps, and adding other things instead of sugar, and the taste goes. Then the myth of sugar = cidery taste is born. 

I don't know for sure but it's an idea...


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## Swinging Beef (13/3/09)

j1gsaw said:


> I was going to use it in the wort actually.. and if it raises alc... woo hoo!


It sure does.
Put it in any beers that you want to REDUCE body while INCREASING alcohol.
You also have to consider that because sucrose is a simple sugar, the yeasties will want to chow down on sucrose BEFORE they go for the maltose.
Sucrose is an excellent addition to make to high gravity belgian beers mid way through the ferment, when most of the maltose is converted to alcohol.
If fermented at high (22+) temps, there can be detectable phenols released that you will not like.
There are several ways to counter/hide this depending on the style you are chasing:
lots of hops (American), stinky yeasts (Belgium) or very cold temperatures (Australia)


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

Castor sugar has a place...

when heated and inverted then used in Belgians.....


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## Katherine (13/3/09)

Pollux said:


> Castor sugar has a place...
> 
> when heated and inverted then used in Belgians.....



Im make a mean pavlova with castor sugar...


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## Pollux (13/3/09)

I make some awesome almond bread myself, not like that store bought stuff with the occasional piece of almond, more like almonds held together by a tiny bit of batter........


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## Nick JD (14/3/09)

I've got a feeling that the reason HB made with sucrose tastes crap has more to do with the methodologies used by the type of brewer who _will_ use sucrose, than any byproducts of the glycolysis of sucrose.

But, my guess would be to look into the enzyme, _phosphofructokinase_ used to extract energy from metabolizing fructose-6-phosphate. What are the eventual metabolites of fructose 1,6 bisphosphate?

Or very simply ... use 1.5kg of fructose instead of sucrose and see if it tastes the as bad. :icon_cheers: 

Even better, use maltose because it's by products taste beery. Beery good.


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## Pollux (14/3/09)

mmmm, Cause and Correlation........

There may well be a point that sucrose is not so much the issue, but the methodologies used by those who use sucrose......


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## MHB (14/3/09)

Sugar is Sugar is Sucrose is all the same, white, castor, icing..its just sugar.
The miniscule amount of stuff that is in raw sugar can I suspect be ignored, the amount of molasses that colours brown and other dark sugars could easily affect the taste of a beer (usually detrimentally in my opinion).

Most of the mainstream commercial beers contain some sugar; I am including most of the classic English ales that we all justifiably admire (obviously not Reinheitsgebot) contain some sugar.
Sucrose (sugar) is a Disaccharide, like Maltose, which is Glucose-Glucose, Sugar is Glucose-Fructose.

Both Glucose and Fructose are fully fermentable to alcohol and CO2, the important differences is the relative sweetness of Fructose (see this link) as yeast only attenuates 75%'ish of the available sugars unfermented Fructose has a lot more impact on the flavour of the finished beer than would the same amount of unfermented Maltose or Dextrose.



Carbonator said:


> In the end, the bi-products of fermentation that are harmful are there with cane sugar, white, brown, castor and icing. Dextrose-Monohydrate has not got these bi-products that cause blindness, etc.
> 
> Pectins and Methanol are very bad.
> 
> Flame suit is ON!


If you were right I would agree with you, but in this case.*More on Fructose*


There are lots of good points raised above, I think the excessive use of sugar, combine that with very poor brewing practice will make for pretty crappy beer, big surprise!


MHB


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