# Brew Rig Design



## cdbrown (18/5/10)

Hi all, Sorry for all the text but just trying to get my ideas down in some sort of reasonable order.

Am in the early stages of designing a new brew rig using 3 50L kegs I've acquired. I've been reading quite a lot of threads (which may not be the best thing) as I'm pretty confused which way to go. Currently brew using 2x20L pots for heating mash and then sparge water, mash in an esky lined with swiss voile and then boil in the 2 pots before no chill. Lots of mucking around, moving pots, draining, refilling and not much consistency especially with mash temps. Want to get a more straight forward system with the aim of more consistent brews.

Really like the layout of Franko's rig so have based the frame on a 3v system all at the same level. I'm quite keen on using a HERMS setup to control the temp of the mash. I have a 20L pot for that, but most comments say to use a 10L pot for the HERMS. Keen to avoid and welding apart from the frame so weldless fittings are preferred.

Water from garden hose through twin undercounter water filter into HLT. HLT will be heated electrically which I'd like to put on a timer so it will start heating in the morning and be ready when I get up like I've seen other people do. It'll have to be temp controlled as I don't want it going to much over the strike temp. Element I guess will be 2.4kw - I like the hand held type as they are already wired with a plug but most people seem to go for a mounted version with a plastic juntion box. Could the element be directly wired to a temp controller of some sort? PT100 transmitters would be the way to go for accurate digital measurement of the water - thermowell in the wall of the keg or in the T-piece at the outlet? 1/2" full bore valve at the outlet.

All vessels (apart from maybe the HERMS) on the same level so will be using a march pump to pump from HLT to MLT, MLT to MLT through HE, MLT to keggle. If batch sparging then all good, if fly sparging then either need a 2nd pump or spend a bit extra and get a dual head march pump. Just from reading I'm guessing the majority of people batch sparge - is that because of the extra expense or the long time it takes to fly sparge compared to batch? Does fly sparge do more than just improve the efficiency of the mash? At the pump will have inlet valves from HLT and MLT, outlet valves to HE and keggle - any reason to go direct to MLT or is going through HE ok?

Insulate MLT with something from clark rubber, will have a dial thermo on it as I have one already. Will make an outlet of some sort so that the grain bed doesn't get disturbed during recirc or sparging - lots of different ideas being used on these forums. 12" false bottom from the LHBS and will go for a 3-piece 1/2" full bore s/s valve here so I can take it apart. Tubing to pump then out to HERMS with whatever coiled copper I can fit in there. Compression fittings for the copper. I like the idea of both inlet and outlet at the top of the pot rather than needing bulkhead fittings for the wall. Temp transmitter at the outlet of the coil with a controller to switch the HERMS element on/off as needed. Then back up to the sparge arm.

Out of the MLT pumped to the keggle. Keggle heated by 3-ring burner with MP reg. Will slightly drill out the small burner valves if the gas flow seems a little low. Trying to decide on the type of pick up, the BB hop screens look really great, lots of people use smaller false bottoms with good result and I guess with those whirlpooling isn't necessary while it is with the hop screen or a pick up bent to the keggle wall. Another 3-piece 1/2" S/S full bore valve out to gravity fill the cube.

Initially will be standard 20-22L batches, but would like to be able to do some double batches for the house regulars. I'm looking at using silicone hoses for liquid transfer with s/s barbed/screw fittings. Is it anealed copper that I should look for when doing the herms coil? Can a single controller do both the HLT and HERMS temp control or is it better to go for 2. Does the system even sound sensible? Keen to start ordering all the parts but want to make sure I have all the design nutted out and a full parts list sorted. Nothing worse than having to order a 1off item later.

Also is it preferred to have the cracked grains in the MLT and then to add the water or add water and then dump in the grain? I have been doing water then grain and then spend some time getting rid of dough balls.

Thanks for having a read.
Cheers
-cdbrown


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## kevin_smevin (18/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> Hi all, Sorry for all the text but just trying to get my ideas down in some sort of reasonable order.
> 
> Am in the early stages of designing a new brew rig using 3 50L kegs I've acquired. I've been reading quite a lot of threads (which may not be the best thing) as I'm pretty confused which way to go. Currently brew using 2x20L pots for heating mash and then sparge water, mash in an esky lined with swiss voile and then boil in the 2 pots before no chill. Lots of mucking around, moving pots, draining, refilling and not much consistency especially with mash temps. Want to get a more straight forward system with the aim of more consistent brews.
> 
> ...




Howdy.

I currently thinking my new 3 vessel system through as well. Your system sounds pretty good. 

For the herms coil i plan on using a t-piece on the outlet with a thermowell and camlock fittings for the silicone tube (you can use a barb instead) so you can measure the temp of the wort as it leaves the coil. 

I wont comment much on the design because i haven't built mine yet but i can tell you that you should check out welded fittings. I found a place in Melbounre that will well a 1/2 inch stainless socket, including the drilling of the hole and the price of the socket for $27. Much cheaper then a stainless bulkhead.

I think its best to have 2 separate thermostats for HLT and HERMS so the sparge water is at exactly the right temp when you want it. You could probably easily go with one however by simply heating your sparge water a few degrees hotter then you want to account for the couple of degrees it will drop during your mash.

Something small to think about.


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## raven19 (18/5/10)

Sounds like you have most things under control with this build.

I would push for a higher HLT so you can fly sparge and then transfer to kettle with just one pump - saving $300. With a sight gauge on the HLT you wont need to look into it so it can be higher. Depends on brewery location and height available also.

Batch sparge with all three vessels on the one level is also ok, just have to change pump hose ends as required when moving liquid from one vessel to another.

Normal copper pipe for the HERMS should be fine.

You can dump grain in first then underlet with water from HLT - this should avoid any dough balls.

Check out the dedicated HERMS thread on this forum too. Lots of good info there too.


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## raven19 (18/5/10)

Another thought - have you contemplated all electric? You already have planned for 2 out of 3 units electrically powered. Saves refilling gas bottles... :icon_cheers:


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## cdbrown (18/5/10)

Thanks for the replies.

yum - There will be a temp probe on both the HLT and outlet of HERMS. Was just wondering if they could both be connected to a controller which could then switch on or off the necessary element. Based on most panels I've seen, it looks like separate controllers. That's a good price for welding, I'll see if there's anything around me and compare it with bulkhead fittings. 

raven - Chappo mentioned that the dual head march pump is only about $50 more than the normal pump from when he got prices before. A sight gauge is something I want on the HLT, but have no idea where to source the tubing.

Underlet - is this filling through the false bottom rather than the sparge arm on top? I had thought about having some way of pumping through the false bottom purely for stuck sparges, this just adds another reason to do it.

Have been tossing up between elec and gas, in fact first idea was to use gas on HLT and keggle as I have 2 burners, but would like to get head start on brew day so figure electric for HLT is needed. Have 3 gas bottles and usually 1 is always full and spare. Plus I'm not sure about the power load to the shed. Having a 15A circuit would mean being able to have a higher kw element in the HLT and to have one in the keggle as they both wouldn't be on. I've got the gas and burner, MP reg aren't pricey so will head down that route until I get annoyed with the time it takes to bring to the boil or something like that.

Cheers
-cdbrown


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## benchick (18/5/10)

good 3 vessel design is the brutus 10, im sure you have seen it but if not , look it up, the designer lonnie mac even has plans that are floating around on the net, i got a copy of them and although i wouldnt do exactly what he is doing he has some good ideas worth considering, especially his parts list with prices and part numbers and his temp controlling with an asco gas valve and temp controller, although it is all in us units, i think for the extra expense 2 pumps would make life a lot easier, but thats just my 2 bobs.


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## manticle (18/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> . A sight gauge is something I want on the HLT, but have no idea where to source the tubing.



Do you mean glass tubing for the guage itself or something else?


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## cdbrown (18/5/10)

yeah - the tube for the sight gauge.

I'd seen the brutus 10 and looks like a good rig. Might spend some more time checking it out.


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## Doogiechap (19/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> yeah - the tube for the sight gauge.
> 
> I'd seen the brutus 10 and looks like a good rig. Might spend some more time checking it out.



Bloke have a look for plastics suppliers in Perth for polycarbonate tubing. You can either go for something that will fit into a smaller push fit (John Guest type) connector or you can get 1/2" which can go into any old bunnings/ plumbing supplier compression fitting. I can't remember the cost of the 3m length I purchsed a few years ago but it was suprisingly cheap.
Cheers
Doug


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## raven19 (19/5/10)

Doogiechap said:


> polycarbonate tubing



+1. I got a length of polycarb tubbing from Beerbelly - yet to install it into mine though.

I also grabbed a weldless bulkhead and fittings from BB while I was there.



Underlet is indeed just feeding the HLT water into your MT via the MT outlet.


(I have a basic timer on my urn HLT atm - works a treat, will be making a Bo Pils tonight).


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## cdbrown (19/5/10)

Have fired of an email to a local plastics joint - will see what they come back with. Will try to get it to suit fittings from bunnings.

Where do most people get the copper pipe from? I'm hoping the local mitre 10 has some as it's in walking distance, otherwise the length will be determined by what fits in the car. Is it simple to join lengths together or does it need to be welded/soldered?

For those with HERMS which has a temp controller - do you override the controller to heat the herms water prior to recirc and do you have a particular water temp you want to reach before starting recirc? Or do you just start the recirc on cold water and let the system heat itself up?


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## Justin (19/5/10)

Ah...this is pretty much what you've described h34r: 

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/366/33903.html?1187742085

of course I would have no idea who's it is :icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (20/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> Where do most people get the copper pipe from? I'm hoping the local mitre 10 has some as it's in walking distance, otherwise the length will be determined by what fits in the car. Is it simple to join lengths together or does it need to be welded/soldered?



Coiled lengths can be bought from the big green shed. I am sure they would have a pipe connector there too, if the lengths available are not long enough.



cdbrown said:


> For those with HERMS which has a temp controller - do you override the controller to heat the herms water prior to recirc and do you have a particular water temp you want to reach before starting recirc? Or do you just start the recirc on cold water and let the system heat itself up?



You can pitch water into the MT at your protein rest temp (around 50 - 55 deg), or just below your target mash temp. Recirc till clear runnings, then switch it over to your HERMS unit.

With the HERMS unit volume being relatively small, it should not take too long for the vessel to get up to your target temp.


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## cdbrown (20/5/10)

raven19 said:


> Coiled lengths can be bought from the big green shed. I am sure they would have a pipe connector there too, if the lengths available are not long enough.
> 
> You can pitch water into the MT at your protein rest temp (around 50 - 55 deg), or just below your target mash temp. Recirc till clear runnings, then switch it over to your HERMS unit.
> 
> With the HERMS unit volume being relatively small, it should not take too long for the vessel to get up to your target temp.



Cheers for that. Will take a look on the weekend.

Haven't currently allowed to recirc the mash without going through the HERMS. Any reason why as I would have thought pumping through HERMS was alright, just don't want it going into the keggle.

Following a chat with Kirem (thanks mate)

HLT controller http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=3
HERMS controller http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=4
Probes http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...products_id=107 or http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=96
SSRs http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=30
heatsinks http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=77

Do these look ok? Is there a cheaper option but with similar quality around? Could a fridgemate do the same job?


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## raven19 (20/5/10)

My planned thread for the RIMS build log has many startling similarities in regards to equipment (PID, SSRs and the like).

I have sourced my PID, SSR, heatsink, temp probes, etc., all from Evilbay - much cheaper. But those Auberins' PID look schmick!

Recirc prior to going through the HERMS (as I understand) is to limit clogging - however this is much more of an issie in a RIMS. The HERMS coil does not change in diameter hence nothing should get caught in the coi (I was probably thinking of a RIMS setup at the time!) - hence probably wont be an issue for your system.

I went with RTD PT100 probes for more accuracy after discussion with jjeffrey on this forum.

Exciting times for your build! :icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (20/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> Could a fridgemate do the same job?



Definately yes for the HLT. _Probably_ yes for the HERMs - however the fridgemates have very limited programming in terms of setting the delay times. The cheaper evilbay versions have some programming ability to shorten the switch times - more suited to a HERMS application.

Longer time with the power on _could _lead to temp overshooting in the HERMS.

* Not bagging the Fridgemate, as I have one and is a great unit for the fermenting fridge.

Edit - temp probe type will need to be matched with Fridgemate, etc - may need a thermowell also depending on probe construction.


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## cdbrown (21/5/10)

Cheers raven - I checked on ebay and while they were cheaper, I want this to last and decided to go with the Auberins gear. RTD PT100 4" probe for the HLT, RTD PT100 2" for the HERMS oulet. Ordered yesterday afternoon and 4 hours later I received an email saying the stuff had already been dispatched and had a tracking code. Top service already. I guess i'll be seeing some control gear arrive on the door step in a few weeks time.

I need to order a twin undersink filter - http://www.psifilters.com.au/buy-online/de...-cartridge.html was recommended to me, might check evilbay to see what they have

Immersion heater - only have 10A circuits out in the shed area, will need to check how many. If I run the HLT side off one circuit and the HERMS and pump off another what size heater could I go for on the HLT? Other loads in the shed is ferment fridge and keezer and I can switch them both off if needed. Hopfully there's two circuits. To add more circuits or put in a higher rated circuit the electrician only needs to work on the shed meter box and not run extra cables from the main house meter box?

Will try and get some copper lengths (9.5mm ID), pipe connectors, compression fittings over the weekend from the local mitre 10 which is closing down (20-50% off). They might have some S/S fittings which will be a bonus.

Cheers
-cdbrown


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## raven19 (21/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> Immersion heater - only have 10A circuits out in the shed area, will need to check how many. If I run the HLT side off one circuit and the HERMS and pump off another what size heater could I go for on the HLT? Other loads in the shed is ferment fridge and keezer and I can switch them both off if needed. Hopfully there's two circuits. To add more circuits or put in a higher rated circuit the electrician only needs to work on the shed meter box and not run extra cables from the main house meter box?



If you go a 2400W Immersion heater that will draw pretty much all your 10A when in use.

I am not sure as to what the Pump draws, but a kettle element of similar 2000+ Wattage would exceed your 10A with the immersion heater afaik.

* I am not an electrician!

A second cicuit (a 15A welding one) would be ideal to add to the shed if budget allows.


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## cdbrown (24/5/10)

Well it looks as if the power situation may fix itself due to other reasons. A friend gave me his arc welding machine as he was going to throw it away. Didn't even think at the time but of course it needs a 15A ciruit as pointed out by Raven. So I can't weld the frame without the new circuit. Fingers crossed the way it's been wired up will allow a 15A circuit to be added. Might see if he can add 2 of them and put a bigger element in the HLT and run the HERMS and pump off the other. Need a electrician to come out anyway to see if he can change some of the house outlets to another circuit as one trips out when having a few items running.

Got two packets of 6m annealed copper tubing 12.7mm OD, 10.8mm ID. Went looking in Big W and all they had were 7.6L and 19L pots for cheap. Would have grabbed a 10-12L pot if they had it. Already have a 19L pot so I'm going to stick with that for the herms. Is soldering the best way to join the tubing? Seems straight forward to solder, just means buying a propane burner to do the job.


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## manticle (24/5/10)

raven19 said:


> Coiled lengths can be bought from the big green shed. I am sure they would have a pipe connector there too, if the lengths available are not long enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have found plumbing supply shops and places like tradelink have better prices on copper and fittings.


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## yardy (24/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> Underlet - is this filling through the false bottom rather than the sparge arm on top? I had thought about having some way of pumping through the false bottom purely for stuck sparges, this just adds another reason to do it.



gday cd,

i underlet through the FB (gravity fed) and have found on a couple of slow sparges with high %age of rye and wheat, that letting as little as a couple of hundred ml flow up through the FB can sort it out.

see here, posts #113 and #118 for the pipe work to the MT for underletting and the False Bottom http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...3423&st=100


cheers


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## cdbrown (28/5/10)

Top work from Auberins. Ordered the temp control stuff on Thursday last week, got home last night to find the firs package from them. Sent as a gift with a value of $11 which is nice of them. Inside it contained the PID controller for the HLT - didn't reaise how small they were - two 40A SSRs and 1 heat sink - it's massive. Still waiting on package #2 which will have the HERMS PID, two PT100 probes and the other heat sink. They were shipped together, so I'm hoping for delivery today.


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## cdbrown (31/5/10)

Didn't get to spend any time on the rig over the weekend apart from a few purchases from the big green shed. Grabbed a few copper T-pieces, 90 degree bends, solder and a butane burner. Burner only cost me $20 instead of the $60 as the chick ran it through as the gas bottle replacement rather than the whole kit. 

Trying to decide on the size of the false bottom for the mash tun. Being the tooheys type which are tall and narrow cutting a 12" hole in the top pretty much removes the whole lid. Would I be better off using the CUB type keg as the mash tun and the others for the HLT and keggle? 

Will be whirlpooling and using a bent pick up on the keggle as I figure the muck will sit in the curved base.


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## raven19 (31/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> ...contained the PID controller for the HLT - didn't reaise how small they were - two 40A SSRs and 1 heat sink - it's massive.



Exciting times! Look very similar to the ones I got recently too.

Looks weird - a small SSR and massive heatsink.

I have located good sized plstic housing boxes from a tradies electrical supplier - if that is your plan to mount all these goodies into. I think they were around $30 - $40 iirc. Yet to buy mine though.

Keep the updates coming! (Cant comment on the keggle issue though except to maximise your false bottom size)


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## dbod (31/5/10)

cdbrown said:


> Didn't get to spend any time on the rig over the weekend apart from a few purchases from the big green shed. Grabbed a few copper T-pieces, 90 degree bends, solder and a butane burner. Burner only cost me $20 instead of the $60 as the chick ran it through as the gas bottle replacement rather than the whole kit.
> 
> Trying to decide on the size of the false bottom for the mash tun. Being the tooheys type which are tall and narrow cutting a 12" hole in the top pretty much removes the whole lid. Would I be better off using the CUB type keg as the mash tun and the others for the HLT and keggle?
> 
> Will be whirlpooling and using a bent pick up on the keggle as I figure the muck will sit in the curved base.


Re: MLT. You can cut a slit in the top to feed the False Bottom through but the wider keg might be easier. 
I'm just trying to decide whether to go the 12" FB with slit or just use a 9" one. Neither fully extends to the edge of the keg inside, I'll have either a 1" or 4" slope around the FB. I'm assuming that a smaller gap is better but not sure really.


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## raven19 (31/5/10)

I would have thought maximising a false bottom area to allow more wort to freely move through in a HERMS system would be the way to go - subject to avoiding channeling, etc of the grain bed.


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## razz (31/5/10)

I'm with you on the false bottom size raven, in recent months I've used 9", 12" and am now using 390mm. For a HERMS, the 9" will limit the recirc to a small flow and a very slow sparge. Conversely, the 390mm false bottom allows for a recirc that easily meets my requirements.


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## cdbrown (31/5/10)

I figured the larger would be better. I hadn't even thought of using the CUB keg as I wanted to keep all the vessels the same and it only occured to me to measure it the other day. I'll be able to get a 12" in there, just means cutting away more of the top than I planned. Next will be to measure the lid I plan on using from a spare pot. Hopefully that's the same size or I'll go for the slot option from dbod. 

After watching some youtube clips I'll be going back to the green shed to grab some flux, different solder and some emery paper. Don't want to lace my nice beer with lead!


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## raven19 (31/5/10)

dbod said:


> Re: MLT. You can cut a slit in the top to feed the False Bottom through but the wider keg might be easier.



+1 to this. My current MT has these slits also - allowing for a smaller hole in the top (hence can use an old pot lid as a MT lid now). The slits simply allow the false bottom to slide into the vessel at which point you can then rotate it 90 degrees and sit it on the keggle base.


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## cdbrown (1/6/10)

With the help of the almighty HERMS-god Chappo, here's the flow scheme for the rig (not to scale). Utilising the dual head march pump http://www.marchpump.com/documents/series_dualhead.asp I have the option of fly sparging for those extra points. 

Both heads need to be primed for operation even if the outlet valves are closed. Will need a way of getting the right side primed before pumping into the MLT. Replacing the MLT valve on the left side with a 3-way valve and installing a 3-way valve near the inlet of the pump right head will provide a path to gravity feed both pump heads. 

Will this allow me to underlet to the MLT in the even of stuck sparge or even during dough-in as I've read that people have good result from underletting after the grain is added? Is it even worth it?

edit - anybody know if those dual head pumps are safe for brewing with like the 809-PL-HS? Or even where to get it? 

View attachment dual_pump_flow.pdf


View attachment dual_pump_flow_2.pdf


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## chappo1970 (1/6/10)

cdbrown said:


> edit - anybody know if those dual head pumps are safe for brewing with like the 809-PL-HS? Or even where to get it?



"The plastic parts are molded out of glass filled polypropylene and Kynar. The stationary impeller spindle is ceramic on Model 851. The O rings are Viton or Ethylene Propylene rubber. There is a type 316 stainless or ceramic thrust washer and thrust screw. The magnet is a glazed ceramic. For materials other than standard, contact the factory."​All those components and their materials are food safe by the look of it cdb. But a quick email to march direct should give you comfort also you can ask them at the same time who stocks them here in Oz.


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## cdbrown (1/6/10)

Looks like the dual head pump is not recommended by Process Pumps due to it only being rated to 87. Fair enough that they don't recommend running it close to it's max temp, but if the max temp is the normal mash out temp and I'm not using it to transfer from the kettle it should be alright??



> Hi Craig,
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry Craig.
> 
> ...


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## cdbrown (2/6/10)

To add weight to not using the dual head pumps - direct from March Manufacturing themselves



> Hello Craig,
> 
> Our dual head series pumps are not suitable for handling food grade products. The pumps are made of polypropylene which is not a food grade plastic. Polypropylene can not handle the high temperature needed for pumping hot wort.
> 
> ...



I guess that's why nobody has used these dual head pumps before and either just gone for one with batch sparge, or two for fly sparge. Well I'll stick with 1 pump for the moment and will plan to allow space for it later.

The second package from Auber arrived last night - PID, 2nd heat sink and two pt100 probes. Didn't realise the probes diameter was so large. So that's the control part sorted. Need to get a good element for the HLT rated 15A (once the electrician actually comes over to give a quote) then I'll be asking lots of questions as to best way to wire it up.


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## cdbrown (3/6/10)

Had an electrician around this morning to do a quote. He's proposing installing a 25A breaker in the box wired to a 15A double plug. Hopefully he'll come back with a reasonable price for that and some other electrical work around the house.

With soldering copper - I checked the solder rods last night and they say 2.4mm 2% composite alloy? Is this the right stuff or should I get the soft stuff on the roll?


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## Spoonta (3/6/10)

thats fine for the copper might want to go a bit higher % for soldering the s/s


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## cdbrown (3/6/10)

Here's the revised plan using 3-way valves or T-pieces and ball valves.

Comments more than welcome if there's a better way to do it. 

View attachment 3_way_valve_flow.pdf


View attachment t_piece_valve_flow.pdf


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## cdbrown (4/6/10)

Next piece of the puzzle ordered. Following a thread regarding heat up times with a 3.6kW element, I decided to buy one off ebay http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...em=160258960927 as they are nice and cheap and should do nicely in the HLT.

Tomorrow might splash out and buy the 7.6L pot and twin undersink water filter from Big W. Then I'm heading to see some family and might get a chance to drop in to TWOC and pick up a march pump and false bottom.


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## cdbrown (10/6/10)

Element arrived yesterday which is good. Just put in an order for 12" false bottom, march pump, 1/2" valves, T-pieces, thread-barb, nuts, all thread and silicone hose from TWOC which is being picked up tonight. Heading to Big W to get a pot, cheapo kettle and water filter (hopefully the flow rate is sufficient).

Still need to source a panel or cabinet for the control gear, some fittings to go from the copper to the bulkhead fittings, better regulator, insulation and sight glass.


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## raven19 (10/6/10)

So the credit card is taking a pounding by the sounds of it!

Bring on the piccies of the build mate. Looking forward to it.


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## goomboogo (10/6/10)

raven19 said:


> So the credit card is taking a pounding by the sounds of it!
> 
> Bring on the piccies of the build mate. Looking forward to it.



Yeah, this homebrewing is a great way to save money.


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## cdbrown (11/6/10)

Definitely taking a hammering - spent over $1k yesterday just on bits and pieces, but it's pretty much all the parts now. Pics of the gear will come tomorrow to show off the goodies. Hoping to be able to cut the steel over the weekend, if not then chop the tops off the other two kegs and try my hand at coiling the tubing. Still waiting on the electrician for the quote to do some work, and then hopefully I'll have a welding circuit to get the rig underway. Will post up sketch of rig shortly - need to modify slightly to account for the 3-ring burner.

By the way - Big W has the 7.6L pots for sale for about $8 instead of the normal $14. While there picked up a 2 stage water filter for $98 (rated 1-3L/min) and the cheap $8 kettle (which happened to be the same as we've been using at home for a while).


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## pablodubloon (11/6/10)

Just started aquiring everything to build a brewery myself and have found this discussion really useful. I have one question though. Why can't the HLT be used for the HERMS loop? Wouldn't this be a cheaper option? 
Good luck with the build and keep up the posts!


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## roller997 (13/6/10)

Dafold said:


> Just started aquiring everything to build a brewery myself and have found this discussion really useful. I have one question though. Why can't the HLT be used for the HERMS loop? Wouldn't this be a cheaper option?
> Good luck with the build and keep up the posts!



Nothing is stopping you from using the HLT for the Heat Exchanger, however I didn't opt for that setup for the following reasons:

1. I am a tad impatient so waiting for a large volume of water in the HLT to ramp up is not a good option for me.
2. I don't want to wait for lautering too long once I have kept the mash at pre-mash out temperatures - I often use 65 degrees, so I would have to stop circulating and wait for it to hit 78-80 degrees
3. I would have to have more water in the HLT for the sake of always keeping the HE coil covered with water (can be achieved by just using the coil arrangement that copper comes in naturally I suppose.
4. I am looking at using the HE to boost the temperature as I lauter - I figure if I have 4800 Watt of power in the HE I might as well use that to get the temperature of the wort as high as possible before turning on the elements in the kettle. For obvious reasons, this isn't possible with using a HLT as I would be lautering at temperatures that would introduce tannins into the brew.
it would cause tannins to be 

Obviously the advantages of using the HLT as the HE is that you save on elements, a vessel and power while also reducing the power requirements to your HERMS system. 

Cheers

Roller


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## cdbrown (14/6/10)

As roller has said - nothing stopping you from using the HLT as the HE. Ramping the mash temps seem to take longer with the larger volume of water. Heating 6L compared to 30L will be far more responsive. 

I wanted to keep the HLT separate so I can just use it for strike and then sparge temps. Letting the HERMS control the mash temp with protein rests, ramp to conversion and then again to mash out. I also want to do double batches and will most likely need to top up the HLT for the sparge so using that as a HE may drop the mash temp after adding fresh water.

I picked up all the goodies from my folks on Saturday but unfortunately didn't get to spend much time on it over the weekend (entertaining, footy, constructing swing set). I cut the top off the other 2 kegs so now just need to clean up the cuts, most likely use a bit for the dremel tool to do this as it'll be a lot less noisy meaning I can do it in the evening. Started on the plumbing side of things - a few t-pieces on the pump, screwed in the thread/barb connections into the valves. Need to chop up the s/s allthread so I can start joining the t-pieces and valves together and make some bulkhead fittings. Also pulled apart the kettle which was simple enough. Need to get some drill bits or hole saws to cut the kegs and HERMS pot.

Will try to post some pics tonight of the goodies....


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## cdbrown (14/6/10)

Goodies pt 1


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## cdbrown (14/6/10)

goodie pt 2


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## raven19 (15/6/10)

Starting to come together nicely there fella! Keep 'em coming!


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## cdbrown (18/6/10)

A visit to the big green shed saw me walking away with some gear and a bigger credit card bill. Last nights purchases included some compression unions to connect the copper tubing to the s/s threads, hose clamps to keep the silicone tubing secure on the barbs, grabbed some brass hex nipples as I don't have any s/s ones yet (if I can get some on the weekend, they will be going back).

Tools side of things got some bi metal hacksaws to cut the s/s allthread I have for bulkhead fittings, bi metal holesaw kit (20, 28, 32, 38, 52), dremel grinding bits, grinding disc and some ear plugs (wish I had them before cutting the keg lids).

Decided to test out the hole saw on the 7.6L pot so grabbed 38mm hole saw, dialed the speed down on the drill and went to town on the base of the pot. Took a while to get the hang of what works best but got through the hole wih the help of WD-40. Came out nice and will just need a little clean up.

Any tips on what I can use to house the rear of the element? Jiffy box perhaps?


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## browndog (18/6/10)

cdbrown said:


> A visit to the big green shed saw me walking away with some gear and a bigger credit card bill. Last nights purchases included some compression unions to connect the copper tubing to the s/s threads, hose clamps to keep the silicone tubing secure on the barbs, grabbed some brass hex nipples as I don't have any s/s ones yet (if I can get some on the weekend, they will be going back).
> 
> Tools side of things got some bi metal hacksaws to cut the s/s allthread I have for bulkhead fittings, bi metal holesaw kit (20, 28, 32, 38, 52), dremel grinding bits, grinding disc and some ear plugs (wish I had them before cutting the keg lids).
> 
> ...




Jaycar has some nice aluminium project boxes that are a perfect size, unfortunately they are pretty expensive si I went with the gray plastic ones they had, I'm hoping there won't be enough heat at the base of the element to heat them also I'm using 1"BSP bulkhead fittings and they are quite sizeable as will absorb a fair bit of heat. If that doesn't work I guess I'll fold up a few boxes out of some s/s sheet.

cheers

browndog


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## leiothrix (19/6/10)

I used an ali box from jaycar - HB5063. $12.95 and no danger of it melting.

It does get pretty hot during use. I wouldn't trust plastic. Even if the plastic doesn't melt/burn, it might get hot enough to deform. Especially as the way that I have mine mounted has the element going through the box and sealing against it.

Rob.


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## Yeastie Beastie (19/6/10)

cdbrown said:


> Any tips on what I can use to house the rear of the element? Jiffy box perhaps?



I used an original housing off an old hot water service I turned into a fireplace for the shed. 
It doesn't _really_ need to house the element head, but more cover it to keep the water off and stray fingers off.

Have a look here to see how I built my pot and there may be some useful info from others there too.


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## cdbrown (21/6/10)

Over the weekend I managed to drop into TWOC (didn't realise he has so much stuff on offer) and picked up the 1/2" BSP S/S nipples to join the valves to the t fittings. Also picked up a massive s/s mash paddle - no more broken plastic spoons. Have nearly finished all the plumbing around the pump, although I migh have to pull some of it apart again to put on more thread tape as it's a bit loose where I want the valves to end up.

Drilled out the hole for the element in the HERMS, inlet and outlet for the kettle and the outlet of the HLT. Need to do the mash tun outlet - did you guys just drill a hole where you thought it would match up with the false bottom or measure it some how? Also need to do the inlet and outlet of the HERMS, temp guage on the HLT and MLT, element for the HLT and clean up all the holes. And of course get some boxes to house up the back of the elements.


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## cdbrown (23/6/10)

Got on the tools last night with the grinder and a cutting disc and cut all the pieces for the brew frame except the support for the burner and herms as I'm not sure how I'll mount them yet. Originally used the thicker cutting disc, but once I switched over to the spar thin diss I got for cutting the S/S I wished I'd started with them - was so much quicker. Anyway cut 12 lengths of 300mm for the top and bottom supports, 8 lengths of 450mm for the verticals and 4 lengths 1600mm for the main beams. They'll need to have the ends ground back so they are all even and square. Also hit the top of 2 of the kegs with the grinder to clean up the hole and they came up nicely ready for to be finished with the dremel. Also took a pic of the valving arrangement around the pump.

Tonight I hope to finish off grinding out the other keg, drill all the holes and clean them up, cut the allthread to make up the bulkhead fittings and install the valves. Depending on the time test out the PIDs.


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## cdbrown (5/7/10)

Been a while without any updates. Finally got a double 15A plug (on 32A circuit) installed last week but yet to test the welding machine. All the holes in the kegs are drilled. The coil for the HERMS has been hand rolled and have gone for a coil in coil setup. Outer coil is 6m and after I cut the inner coil back I should end up with 10m in total. The coils have been soldered together at the bottom so that the top of each coil will be the inlet and outlet which need to be done.

Still trying to figure in my head the best way to wire up the elements. I picked up some aluminium boxes to house the connections and think I might use a terminal block in each to connect the wires to the 15A cord, then have the cord going through the wall of the box with a grommit. Originally thought I might try and mount a plug to the box wall but that's turning out a challenge to find the male and female plugs that will fit and be rated 15A.

Need to clean up the ends of all the steel pieces and tack weld the frame together. Unfortunately it's not going to look too different to pumpy, franko or any of the other single tier frames. Also need to get my hands on some s/s 2mm rods to weld the keg fittings.


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## unrealeous (5/7/10)

leiothrix said:


> I used an ali box from jaycar - HB5063. $12.95 and no danger of it melting.


I started out with largest one of those, but in the found found it far too small to fit everything. 3 solid state relays, switches, plugs, micro-controller plus all the wiring - not to mention the heat dissipation issue.

I'm now using an ABB box - an order of magnitude more expensive, but no one gets into this hobby to save money.


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## cdbrown (5/7/10)

The ali box is only going to be mounted to the mlt to house the rear of the element and some wiring. all the switches, relays, heat sinks and PIDs will be in a large box. 

Where did you get the ABB box and what size?


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## unrealeous (5/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Where did you get the ABB box and what size?


It's a SR3215 - 300x250x150 - from John R Turks in sunny wollongong.


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## leiothrix (5/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Originally thought I might try and mount a plug to the box wall but that's turning out a challenge to find the male and female plugs that will fit and be rated 15A.



Jaycar sell 15A IEC plugs and sockets. Not sure if they will fit though.

Rob.


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## randyrob (5/7/10)

cdbrown said:


>



that looks like it's going to be one fun bit of gear to prime not to mention strip down and clean h34r:


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## cdbrown (5/7/10)

Cheer Rob,

I actually picked up 2 of the IEC 16A male plugs the other week thinking I could mount them on a side wall of the box. Trouble is I then couldn't find the associated female plug. Looking on Jaycar I see they don't sell the female plug but a 2m mains lead instead.


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## beerbrewer76543 (5/7/10)

Check out my high tech drafting skills above... This is my planned piping layout. All ball valves in a row except the system drain located at the low point

Hopefully this will prove to be easy to prime, drain and with all valves in a row it will be less confusing to operate


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## leiothrix (5/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Cheer Rob,
> 
> I actually picked up 2 of the IEC 16A male plugs the other week thinking I could mount them on a side wall of the box. Trouble is I then couldn't find the associated female plug. Looking on Jaycar I see they don't sell the female plug but a 2m mains lead instead.



That's what I've got on my pot. I've got the socket on an ali box / terminal cover on the element, and the pre-made lead to connect that to the temp/power controller.

Jaycar I think have a licence to print money, but it worked and was convenient.

Rob.


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## raven19 (5/7/10)

leiothrix said:


> Jaycar sell 15A IEC plugs and sockets. Not sure if they will fit though.



I found a series of holes drilled around the circumference of the void in the aluminium JB, punch out the central piece of metal left, then you just need a metal hand file to smooth out the void. Worked an absolute treat with my keg tap holes also. Or use a Jigsaw with a metal blade and go slow.


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## leiothrix (5/7/10)

I used a dremel with a fibreglass reinforced cutoff wheel. It's good for cutting, and as long as you're gentle it's good for grinding too.

The stones that they have with the dremel just clog with the ali, so it's either the cutoff disk or a hand file.

Rob.


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## Franko (5/7/10)

randyrob said:


> that looks like it's going to be one fun bit of gear to prime not to mention strip down and clean h34r:




exactly what I was thinking :blink:


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## browndog (5/7/10)

L_Bomb said:


> View attachment 39189
> 
> 
> Check out my high tech drafting skills above... This is my planned piping layout. All ball valves in a row except the system drain located at the low point
> ...




Most HERMS rigs I've seen have the pump and the HE opposite to the way you have it so the pump is actually pumping into the HE coil, the way you have it the pump is sucking from the HE, I don't know if that will give you some problems or not. Could have priming issues.

cheers

Browndog


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## Brad Sofield (5/7/10)

Hey cdbrown-it must be a bunnings thing! Got a 4000 MAP burner $143 for the cost of a replacement canister $29. Makes up for all the other things I have overpayed for over the years. Honestly I didn't realise till I got home and too far to go back.Cheers


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## beerbrewer76543 (6/7/10)

browndog said:


> Most HERMS rigs I've seen have the pump and the HE opposite to the way you have it so the pump is actually pumping into the HE coil, the way you have it the pump is sucking from the HE, I don't know if that will give you some problems or not. Could have priming issues.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Browndog, my thinking was to have the pump at the low point of the system so it would gravity prime, then use the valve on the outlet side to restrict flow as required. The drain valve at the bottom should let me collect the remainder of that precious precious wort. Seem ok?

Cheers 

L_Bomb


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## cdbrown (6/7/10)

BradS said:


> Hey cdbrown-it must be a bunnings thing! Got a 4000 MAP burner $143 for the cost of a replacement canister $29. Makes up for all the other things I have overpayed for over the years. Honestly I didn't realise till I got home and too far to go back.Cheers



That's because they scan the canister instead of the package barcode. Good deal I reckon.

Last night I mounted the HERMS element in the ali box and pot, cut the small panel for the IEC connector. Tonight will test the seal to make sure of any leaks before making up some short wire runs and will make up the box for the HLT. Dremel cut off disc did the job nicely.

Managed to get roughly 11m of 1/2" coil in the pot and now just figuring the best way to join the copper to the s/s threaded fittings to make a nice bulkhead fitting as there's no way I'm touching that thin wall with a arc welder. I may get another pot and redo the holes but go slightly smaller as a hex nipple cat go right through which isn't what I wanted.

With the pump and valves it's done to allow underletting of the mash tun if I get a stuck sparge. Maybe down the track I'll go the simplified way and end up using hose disconnects and minimal valves, but I might as well give it a crack.


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## ~MikE (6/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Managed to get roughly 11m of 1/2" coil in the pot and now just figuring the best way to join the copper to the s/s threaded fittings to make a nice bulkhead fitting as there's no way I'm touching that thin wall with a arc welder. I may get another pot and redo the holes but go slightly smaller as a hex nipple cat go right through which isn't what I wanted.



i'm currently building a HE with the exact same pot i think. i've been silver soldering all my sockets, piece of piss and stronger than i thought it would be. was gonna silver solder sockets on it and then connect the coil to hosetails with some silicone tubing, the weight of the coil would be on the base of the pot then and not the socket either.


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## cdbrown (6/7/10)

~MikE said:


> i'm currently building a HE with the exact same pot i think. i've been silver soldering all my sockets, piece of piss and stronger than i thought it would be. was gonna silver solder sockets on it and then connect the coil to hosetails with some silicone tubing, the weight of the coil would be on the base of the pot then and not the socket either.



Is that the same solder used on the copper fittings? I had thought about soldering them, I hope the hex nuts are large enough to cover the hole so that I can get a good solder around the edge, otherwise I'll definitely be forced to buy another pot and try again (would mean I could cut up the old pot and make washers out of it). What do you reckon about silver soldering the fittings to the keg as well?


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## browndog (6/7/10)

L_Bomb said:


> Browndog, my thinking was to have the pump at the low point of the system so it would gravity prime, then use the valve on the outlet side to restrict flow as required. The drain valve at the bottom should let me collect the remainder of that precious precious wort. Seem ok?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> L_Bomb



Well, it certainly is the simplest way to plumb it, it is just that many people have priming issues without even having a HE coil in the equation. It may work, or it may give you a heap of head aches. Bear in mind that the wort will be trying to push all the air out of 6-9M of coil in your HE. It would be interesting to see what others think. Good luck with it anyhow.

cheers

Browndog


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## ~MikE (6/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Is that the same solder used on the copper fittings? I had thought about soldering them, I hope the hex nuts are large enough to cover the hole so that I can get a good solder around the edge, otherwise I'll definitely be forced to buy another pot and try again (would mean I could cut up the old pot and make washers out of it). What do you reckon about silver soldering the fittings to the keg as well?



same silver solder, it'll go on pretty much anything except aluminium i believe - not even using an oxy torch or anything - just the handheld (butane i think) burner. i have sockets silver soldered to kegs and one of the 19L bigW pots (same wall thickness i believe). i recently removed a 1" socket from the keg to replace it with a bulkhead fitted element - had to melt it off as i couldn't knock it off with the hammer so it's certainly strong enough.

the sockets themselves are only a couple dollars, so if the hex nut doesn't go on by itself it's not the end of the world...


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## raven19 (6/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> ...otherwise I'll definitely be forced to buy another pot and try again...



If you do buy a second pot, you could use part of the first pot as a shiny shield for your March Pump fella.


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## cdbrown (6/7/10)

Any particular flux for soldering to stainless? I need to check whether the solder I'm using is silver solder - all I know is it's lead free and it came in a pack with flux, emery cloth and a small brush.


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## ~MikE (6/7/10)

I've just been using the benzomatic stuff - This Flux with This solder

EDIT: and a propane torch as it turns out...


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## cdbrown (6/7/10)

Excellent - exactly the same as what I've been using on the copper pipe as they came in this kit
"





I have this burner


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## cdbrown (7/7/10)

Made a little bit of progress last night and managed to take some happy snaps (new paddle!). Tested the herms pot for any leaks and thankfully there were none. Even got it boiling without any signs of a leak which is good. By the way - mashmaster thermo showed 98.5C in boiling water. Made up the electric box to house the HLT element so now all I need is some decent gauge wire to hook the herms element to the plug, two female plugs to suit and some 3mm x 10mm nuts and bolts to secure the male plugs to the enclosure. I figured I should clean up the shed after doing the enclosure as I was tripping over stuff and there wasn' any clear area to work for the soldering of fittings. More tonight I hope!


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## unrealeous (7/7/10)

That's a great idea using a housing around the bottom of your kettle element. Mine is currently blowing in the breeze, and I've been wondering what I can do to stop it looking so dangerous. Keep those photo's coming.

Edit - and where did you get your mash paddle from?


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## cdbrown (7/7/10)

The housing are aluminium cases from jaycar and are real easy to cut holes in. The thickness of the ali and bottom of the pot is just a little thicker than the kettle so when the screws are tight makes a great seal. They are different sized cases to suite the elements.

The paddle I grabbed from TWOC when I went and picked up some fittings the other week. Saw it on the counter and couldn't resist. They aren't on the website for some reason.


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## leiothrix (7/7/10)

Looks good. One thing I'd do (err, and I did  ) is put a S/S nut/bolt through the box and into the pot at the end away from the element.

It will stop the box from twisting and potentially wrecking the seal. As long as the hole is close in size to the bolt it doesn't need a gasket or anything either.

Rob.


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## cdbrown (13/7/10)

I've quickly come to realise that silver soldering the sockets to the keg is not a strength of mine. Will give it another crack sometime this week and if it doesn't work I'll have to suck up the pride and take it to someone to weld, maybe a local exhaust place.

Began welding the frame and I'm fairly bad at it, but managing to get some runs. Have to grind out a couple of welds as the cross members weren't square (uneven ground) and the second main beam needs to be redone.

Did a test wire of the PID and calibrated it in boiling and ice water. At first it was coming up with very wierd temps, but soon realised I'd connected the PT100 wrong. Soldered and heatshrunk wires to the male plugs and mounted them to the element enclosures.


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## cdbrown (14/7/10)

Did some research for an enclosure. After seeing that the PIDs are quite deep and then remembering how huge the heatsinks are for the SSRs I needed a workable depth of at least 150mm. Ensuring there's plenty of space in the cabinet for the bits and bobs plus a few switches and lights on the panel I've come across an enclosure 400x300x200 http://www.brenclosures.com.au/nizs.htm. Still looking around for other options to see if I can get a smaller enclosure with the same depth. Quoted price is $231 if anyone is interested.


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## raven19 (14/7/10)

Local electrical wholesaler had units for similar size for aroud $50 - albeit poly/plastic not metal.

Those do look the beez kneez though.


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## hockadays (14/7/10)

yeah the ramp soak pid has quite a bit of depth. I looked at these enclosures as well but ended up grapping the biggest I could find from a electrical wholesaler in brisbane for around 60$


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## Doogiechap (14/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Did some research for an enclosure. After seeing that the PIDs are quite deep and then remembering how huge the heatsinks are for the SSRs I needed a workable depth of at least 150mm. Ensuring there's plenty of space in the cabinet for the bits and bobs plus a few switches and lights on the panel I've come across an enclosure 400x300x200 http://www.brenclosures.com.au/nizs.htm. Still looking around for other options to see if I can get a smaller enclosure with the same depth. Quoted price is $231 if anyone is interested.


Bloke, Uniquip do knockoffs of Clipsal switchgear and have some small enclosures online but a phonecall might get you in the right direction as well. Their prices on the electrical bits are ridiculously cheap.
Looks like you are enjoying the process 
Cheers
Doug


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## leiothrix (14/7/10)

I used the heatsink from an old socket-A AMD CPU for my SSR. With the fan running on it it doesn't get above ambient temperature. Without the fan it was too hot to touch.

It's nowhere near 150mm deep. Including the fan it would be maybe 70mm deep. 

Of course it means that you have to worry about the fan, but it's another option anyway.

Rob.


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## cdbrown (23/7/10)

Made some progress of the frame during the week, even has the castors on, and hope to have it all welded and cleaned up tonight with just some remedial work (pump, HERMS, burner mounts) to follow. Probably could have had it all done in a day as once you get on a roll the welds get layed fairly easily, but only doing a couple of hours each night has meant it's taken a bit longer. Got a tin of kettle black paint which will get applied once all the bits are done - probably during the day when the weather is warmer.

Also picked up a new HERMS pot and drilled out the holes for that, just need to clean up the holes, install the element/enclosure and hook up the coil to the outside world. 

Have been most unsuccessful in silver soldering a socket to the keg so picked up a pack of S/S rods and will weld the fittings instead. Not too many to do which is handy. Once that's done then I can make up the pick up tubes for the keggle and MLT and the pipe for the false bottom.

Have been trying to plan the control panel and have come up with the following- 
Power is supplied by two 15A power cords
I'd like to have some sort of light to indicate power to the panel (don't really need a main switch as that's what the double wall socket provides but if it makes it easier then I'd go for that)
One 15A cable is used for the MLT PID, SSR and element, the other for the HERMS PID, SSR and element and also the pump.
For MLT - a switch to energise the PID which is connected to a selector switch - Auto (PID controls SSR and element), HOLD (no power to SSR and element), Manual (power to element)
Same for HERMS
Also need a switch to turn the pump on and off.

Are there switches and selector switches which can handle the 15A (would like them to be illuminated) and if not what do I need to do to?

Cheers
-cdbrown


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## markws (23/7/10)

nice work - good progress!


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## raven19 (23/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> Are there switches and selector switches which can handle the 15A (would like them to be illuminated) and if not what do I need to do to?



Yeah I am sure they come in amps higher than 10A - Electrical Wholesales, Jaycar or similar, or have a squiz on Evilbay.

Iirc, the IEC connector plugs were actually rated for 15A (the ones I use in my temp controllers) - however the cords are not.

My SSR is rated for 20A so surely there are a plethora of switches and lights that can also handle similar loads.


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## cdbrown (23/7/10)

The plugs are rated to 16A and I made sure to get the equivalent female plug and cable to suite (there were the 10A ones with the secure connector as well). But this is definitely rated as it has the larger ground plug.

Reason for asking about the switches is that the ones on Jaycar has 6A generally for the illuminated kind. They do have some toggle switches which are rated to 20A.


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## schooey (23/7/10)

This may be what you are looking for...







These have already been posted in my rig build thread here

I chose to use a contactor to isolate the high load for the 3600W element in my HLT. The contactor is the white gadget circled there mounted on the DIN rail in the second pic. The contactor is switched by the switch that the arrow is pointing to on the panel door. It's the one with HLT under it on the first pic. The yellow light is connected across the circuit of the element to indicate when the element is working.

Contactors are designed to switch high loads regularly, and your hand is nowhere near high load if something goes pear shaped. The smaller switch on the panel door only draws enough load to switch the coil in the contactor, which is bugger all.


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## cdbrown (23/7/10)

Cheers mate - exactly the info I needed. For my own benefit - top is the RCD with test trip button then - left is SSR for the element, next just some terminal blocks, then the contactor, then a little black thing - is that the SSR for the HERMS element? Below that a stip for earth wires.

I've gone for 20A SSRs for both the 3.6kw HLT element and 2.4kw HERMS element. For me I'd need two contactors (one for each circuit).

Just called a local elect wholesaler for a price on a metal enclosure 400x400x210 = $210 +GST. Might keep looking around.


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## schooey (23/7/10)

The 'black thing' to the right is a DPDT change over relay. I use one PID and a SSR for the HLT element, and another PID with the changeover relay to control two solenoid valves. The valves control the flow of liquid through the HERMS coil which is in the HLT.


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## cdbrown (26/7/10)

More progress over the weekend. Frame all welded, castors on and support for the pump in place. Tried my hand at stick welding the s/s fittings and after a number of leak tests got a nice strong and sealed connection. Since the pics were taken I've also got the water filter and pump mounted. Decided to do away with the underletting option of the MLT for the time being so makes the valve arrangment around the pump a lot nicer.

Put the element and coil into the new pot and have done the outlet side connected to a t-piece which will house the pt100 probe. Need to cut some of the inlet part of the coil and get that connected to the barb. All the pick up tubes in the kegs as well as the mash return needs to be made up. Hopefully by the end of the week I'll be able to test the system out with water.


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## cdbrown (27/7/10)

Little more progress but no pics this time. Water filter is connected up to the HLT (need to get a nut to hold the fitting in place in the HLT wall), element and enclosure installed (just need to wire it up), temp gauge for HLT and mash tun also installed. The copper pick ups and connection between falsey and valve have been made up and installed. Realised last night that I still have to drill, install and weld the fitting for the pt100 on the hlt so that is tomorrow night's job. Getting some flat bar from Mark on Thursday so will make up some end caps and weld.

Struggling to work out how to mount the HERMS and burner. For the HERMS I was thinking of hanging it from the underside of the top frame by some hook arrangement using the handles of the pot so that it's above the pump outlet. I'd like the 3-ring burner to be adjustable in height - any suggestions on how to get this done?


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## unrealeous (27/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> I'd like the 3-ring burner to be adjustable in height - any suggestions on how to get this done?


I bought some threaded rods from Bunnings - and mounted the burners off these. Here is a really dodgy photo - but you get the idea... may not look pretty, but adjustable they are...


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## cdbrown (27/7/10)

So threaded rod welded to the top and bottom frames at the front and back. What is supporting the burner between the threaded rod? Is there a clamp or maybe a U-bolt holding it onto the support?

Cheers for the dodgy photo


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## unrealeous (27/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> So threaded rod welded to the top and bottom frames at the front and back. What is supporting the burner between the threaded rod? Is there a clamp or maybe a U-bolt holding it onto the support?
> 
> Cheers for the dodgy photo


Threaded rod is welded top and bottom - and if you use the right sized drill bits for making the holes - they are really solid even before you apply the weld. The support is just a bit spare square bar, and I cut small sections of square bar off and welded these to the ends of the main support bar (you could probably improve on this . By accident rather than design, it sits tight - so I only needed one nut on the bottom to hold it there... I was planning to use a nut at the top and bottom of the support bar to really hold it there.


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## malbur (27/7/10)

cdbrown said:


> I'd like the 3-ring burner to be adjustable in height - any suggestions on how to get this done?



Hi cdbrown,

Heres a pic of my hight ajustable burner(not a 3 ring) but you should be able to get some ideas.
some SS threaded rod, angle and turned up some handles and drilled & tapped a thread in them.



cheers
malbur


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## unrealeous (27/7/10)

Looks good malbur - much prettier than mine


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## cdbrown (28/7/10)

I picked up some threaded rods, nuts and washers last night and will be putting to good use the spare couple of metres of square hollow section I have to make up supports for the HERMS and burner. For the HERMS I plan to weld two pieces to the rear upright in the shape of a V leaving space betwen the steel for the herms element enclosure to sit. For the burner I'll do something similar to unrealous and malbur using the rods to move the support up and down. Hopefully I'll get it cut, cleaned and all installed tonight and pics tomorrow.


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## cdbrown (5/8/10)

Not really had much progress of late due to cracking the sh1ts at the leaks due to my poor s/s welding skills but have done some things. The threaded rods have been used to good effect and now have an adjustable support for the burner. Supports have been welded to the frame for the pump and HERMS, although after putting the HERMS into place I've decided to add an extension to it to prevent it from toppling over, but not from being removed. Some flat bar from markws has been used to cover the open ends of all the hollow sections. Only a few welds to be ground back, add the new herms support and the frame is ready for painting.

I'll try to get some oversized washers tonight for use with the weldless temp gauges and then make more silicone washers. I grabbed a camping mat from crazy clarks which will be used to insulate the HLT, mash and HERMS. Just waiting on a flexible grinding disc so that I can grind back the fillet welds and reweld where the metals haven't fused.

Still no closer on the control panel side of things.


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## cdbrown (5/8/10)

For the panel I'm planning on using two 15A leads from the new double GPO that was installed. Each cable will be wired to a DPST switch which energises the panel. I plan on using another DPST powered from one lead to turn the pump on/off. On this same lead will be the HERMS, the other lead for the HLT. The PIDs will turn on when the main power switches are switched on but I don't want them to automatically start trying to power up the elements so could I put a DPDT switch in between the element and the SSR so the position would be PID powers element, no power to element, manual power to element? Does this sound the right way to do it?


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## cdbrown (6/8/10)

A few pics taken lately showing the burner, HERMS and pump support and a few of the bits with end caps. Last night I finished off the last of the frame welds so it's ready to be cleaned back and painted. Do I need to hit the whole frame with the flap disc or just the areas with surface rust before painting?

With the help of a new flap disc I ground flush all the keg welds and planning on doing leak test and repairs tonight so hopefully that will fix those issues. Picked up some size 10 o-rings from the plumbing section last night which are the exact same size found on the short threaded mashmaster temp gauge. Hopefully the o-rings along with the larger washers will provide a better seal. Jaycar were close (by only 10mins) when I went by last night so the switches will have to wait till tomorrow. Also going to replace the 3.6kw enclosure for something a little larger in order to get a spanner in to tighten the element into the socket.

Need to spend some time getting the HERMS finished off which might require cutting one turn of the inner coil and soldering some elbows on the in and out legs before connecting to the union. Everything needs a good clean out to remove all the grinding dust.


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## raven19 (6/8/10)

cdbrown said:


> Do I need to hit the whole frame with the flap disc or just the areas with surface rust before painting?



For my current frame - I only grinded at weld locations.

I would just hit the areas the need it.

(coming together nicely now!)


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## cdbrown (6/8/10)

Cheers - there's various bits of surface rust, mainly where I'd ground back for welds and then the leaking kegs have dripped on them. 60grit flap disc will sort that out in no time.


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## mxd (6/8/10)

u might want to give the whole frame a quick hand sand jst to ensure the paint i'll stick ?


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## cdbrown (19/8/10)

I've ironed out all noticable leaks so next step is to put 50L into the system and heat it up (taking note how long it takes to get up to temp). I've attached the wiring I've come up with. Note that the power on the elements is actually the other way around. HERMS and pump off one circuit, HLT off the other. I have a double 15A GPO off a 32A circuit so no problems with power supply. If you could take a look and let me know if there's a better way or things I should consider that would be great. All switches are rated 16A DPDT. 

Managed to get the HERMS coil nearly sorted although there's a leak in one of the joints. I've not tried to repair a soldered joint before. Is it just as simple as heating it up and applying the solder or should it be heated, taken apart, cleaned and redone?

Cheers
-cdbrown 

View attachment Wiring.pdf


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## Greg Lawrence (19/8/10)

cdbrown said:


> I've ironed out all noticable leaks so next step is to put 50L into the system and heat it up (taking note how long it takes to get up to temp). I've attached the wiring I've come up with. Note that the power on the elements is actually the other way around. HERMS and pump off one circuit, HLT off the other. I have a double 15A GPO off a 32A circuit so no problems with power supply. If you could take a look and let me know if there's a better way or things I should consider that would be great. All switches are rated 16A DPDT.
> 
> Managed to get the HERMS coil nearly sorted although there's a leak in one of the joints. I've not tried to repair a soldered joint before. Is it just as simple as heating it up and applying the solder or should it be heated, taken apart, cleaned and redone?
> 
> ...



Hi cdbrown

Any reason for switching the neutrals? No real need to in my opinion, just making a bit more work for yourself. Tell me if Im missing something here. 
I also think you could get rid of each of the switches directly after each RCD. I assume that the 15A outlets that each circuit is fed from would have isolators, so its a bit of a doubel up. Once again, you may have a reason. These are just my views from looking at the circuits, I dont really have any idea of your operational requirements.

Gregor


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## cdbrown (19/8/10)

I have read on a few places that isolating the live and neutral just provides that little bit more protection. The reason for the switches after the RCD's is that I don't want to have to run back to the wall with the plugs if I need to quickly switch something off. May have the rig 15m or so away from the wall outlet. A matter of convenience really (and a few more illuminated switches looks good).

Cheers for the response.


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## browndog (19/8/10)

Gregor said:


> Hi cdbrown
> 
> Any reason for switching the neutrals? No real need to in my opinion, just making a bit more work for yourself. Tell me if Im missing something here.
> I also think you could get rid of each of the switches directly after each RCD. I assume that the 15A outlets that each circuit is fed from would have isolators, so its a bit of a doubel up. Once again, you may have a reason. These are just my views from looking at the circuits, I dont really have any idea of your operational requirements.
> ...



If you are going to use illuminated switches, you need a neutral. The wiring diagram looks good (and a bit familiar) Mr Brown.

cheers

Browndog


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## cdbrown (20/8/10)

Mr Dog,

It may look familiar but clearly it's more colourful has more switches and shows RCDs. After searching back through your upgrade I found your sketch as I'd forgot all about it since I first asked you for info. It must have imprinted itself as I'm glad I got the wiring right. Been too long since you updated your thread.

Aiming to do the wiring this weekend now that I have a box for it to go into. Will be interesting to see the pid's in action running a water test.


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## cdbrown (23/8/10)

Some progress over the weekend with pics to follow tomorrow. Wired up the control panel and thankfully it all seems to work. Cutting, stripping, twisting and soldering wires takes a bloody long time. It all fit nicely inside the tool box, just need to drill 2 holes to run the cabling for the temp probes. It's not fixed to the frame so all the cabling can be unplugged and the panel and wires can be packed away neatly. Tonight I hope to finish the enclosure for the HLT element, connect it to the PID and see if my wiring does actually work correctly.

I also attacked a metal shelving unit by cutting some holes in a shelf to mount the mill. Cut a larger hole in another shelf, modified the base of a swing top bin and mounted it to the top of the mill as a hopper. So when I need to mill grain it's a matter of attaching the drill and it's ready to go.

To do - 
1. HLT - finish enclosure, test wiring and PID by heating the water, make measuring stick for volumes, insulate if no leaks are evident at temp
2. HERMS - test and repair solder leaks of coil, check for any leaks in pot, test wiring and PID by heating HERMS water, insulate if no leaks are evident
3. Mash - make mash return manifold, insulate
4. Keggle - hook up burner to new MP adjustable reg and hose
5. Frame - clean and paint (although I might brew on it before being painted)

So there's still a bit to do but I'm hopeful to be brewing by the end of this week


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## raven19 (23/8/10)

I would go the sightglass in the HLT personally mate if budget allows. Can alays add this later though.

When testing the PID dont get too worried with the results as long as it levels out, when you do your first grain run, just reset the autotune, and get it to ramp up to say a protein rest temp. Then next step should then result in no overshoot.

Can you please confirm what material and glue you are using for insultation? (Or is it in a previous post I have missed?)

(Sent a PM also on other items).

Photo of the control panel inside and out requested also please! :icon_cheers:


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## cdbrown (23/8/10)

markws kindly donated a sight glass but I just haven't got around to getting the fight fittings for it. I also need to get another bush fitting for the temp probe, but it will have to wait till later.

Insulation will be clark rubber blue camping mat, secured by tape with the seal at the back of the keg so won't be seen. Not keen on using glue as i'm sure it will need to be replaced at some stage.

Photos will come tonight or tomorrow once I take them off the camera.
edit - here's some from my phone that I took in the early stages of the panel.


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## cdbrown (24/8/10)

Some pics for those that are playing at home.

Filled the HLT last night, hung the probe into water, hooked up the power cable to the element and flicked the switch and amazingly it worked. However not without a hitch. The HLT PID was returning an error which I'd seen before when the probe is wired up wrong. After lots of checking, turning on the HERMS PID and seeing that it was measuring the temp I swapped out the probes and found the longer probe wasn't working properly. Got the HLT heating underway and managed to go from 16C up to 90ish in 90mins with about 45L odd in the keg which is about what I thought it would. Will wrap it in insulation which will help as I'm sure the 13c ambient temp was trying it's best to remove some of the heat generated.

Now the longer probe which wasn't working - I managed to pull the end cap off to discover two out of the three wires had broken away from the solder. Stripped, cleaned and resoldered Added some heat shrink and put it back together to get a working probe again. Tonight will test the HERMS coil for leaks (although I'm fairly confident there isn't any now), test the HERMS PID and element (and understand how to program the ramp/soak), make up the mash return manifold, wrap some insulation around the kegs and cut the silicone hose to length (I'm thinking I probably don't have enough). Brewing is definitely getting closer.....


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## MeLoveBeer (24/8/10)

Looking good... love the mill/hopper setup


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## raven19 (24/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Looking good... love the mill/hopper setup



+1. Doubles as shelving too when not in use I dare say.

Are the green and red switches ebay jobbies or from Jaycar/similar?

I grabbed some red illuminated ones off ebay a while back. Planning on using some of them on my control panel also.

Loving the build thread fella.


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## mxd (24/8/10)

looking great, not too sure but should you do a bit of earthing in the box (door and container) and then to the frame of the rig ?


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## dent (24/8/10)

If wiring passes through, or is near, any metal, that metal should be earthed. 

If in doubt, earth it.


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## cdbrown (24/8/10)

Switches are rated 16A DPDT from Jaycar. Was so stocked when I switched on the mains and they all worked, crapped myself when showing SWMBO and the HLT didn't come on, thankfully it just wasn't plugged into the wall properly.

Make sure they are rated properly or use a contactor to do the switching for you. Schooey is the bloke you want to talk to about wiring when using contactors.

Yep - it will double as storage. It's not the strongest of shelves around so won't be putting the grain sacks on there. Mounting with the shaft inwards meant I didn't have to come up with some way to physically mount the drill.

Hope it will only be a few more days and it might turn into a brew thread!

The HLT PID is very easy to use, just press up or down to change the target temp so could easily be used on the HERMS if you didn't want a pre-programmed step mash. One thing about the ramp/soak PID I'm unclear about, if you tell it to ramp from 50 to 66 and give it say 10mins, and then hold the mash for 60 mins at 66, if the temp hasn't reached 66 at 10mins does it start step 2 or does it have to reach 66 in order to start step 2?

edit - Yes I will run an earth to the box, all element enclosures are earthed already, will look at earthing the frame as well


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## cdbrown (26/8/10)

I added the earth to the control box and tested the HERMS PID. Going to take a little getting used to it's operation and properly setting the program, but it works and was keeping the water in the pot at the right temp or increasing it as needed. Need to run an auto tune on it when I do a 20L water batch tonight. 

Need to do a little remedial work on the burner support to make it move easier on the guide, but shouldn't take long to file it out. Got sucked into watching Cousins last night so not much got done apart from finishing off the mash return, mount the pump and water filter, put in the silicone tubing and then insulate the MLT. Unfortunately didn't have enough mat left over for the HLT, will use some of the left over for the HERMS.

Tonight I'll run PBW through the system which will be a nice test to see if everything works and that I can prime the pump correctly. Maybe I'll get to brew tomorrow.


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## cdbrown (28/8/10)

Due to 97 train drivers deciding to call in sick on Friday I didn't get to break in the rig as planned, but never fear today I brewed a German Pilsner with 4.9kg grain, mashed for 90mins at 64c, ramped for mash out, sparged and boiled. Managed to get the cube exactly filled so was chuffed to get the exact amount at the end. Worked pretty well for the most part, mash return was a tad slow which was probably due to the milling gap and using a drill. The 3-ring burner with adjustable MP reg really pumps out some heat, was boiling in no time. So quick even compared to boiling half the amount using a standard reg. Slightly better SG pre-boil than I thought, will see what the OG is once it's cooled and ready to ferment.

Currently 35 mins through a 60min mash for a dunkel. Increased the gap one notch and the flow seems to be better. PID doing a great job keeping the temp right.


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## cdbrown (30/8/10)

Finished the weekend with a cube of pils, dunkel and 2 cubes of oktoberfest. Next brews I'm going to put the hydro into the keggle before and after the boil to get proper measurement. Need to look at something a bit more permanent for the mill - the metal frame it's on is a bit too flexible so lots of vibration. Can't really fill the hopped as I'd like as the drill can't handle it unless it's on the highest speed. Is the high speed good for the mash - does it produce too much powder?


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## raven19 (30/8/10)

I have a MM2 (on factory gap setting) and currently use a cordless drill. It breaks up the grain a bit but still get around 70 - 75% efficiency.

Too fast on the mill, and you are liable to just smash the grains rather than cracking/crushing them.

If I used my mains powered drill I suspect it would destroy the grain totally and leave me with a lot of flour in the MT.


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## cdbrown (6/10/10)

Here's some pics of a recent brew. I'm starting to get the efficiency up to 65% for the doubles which I'm very happy with. Adding an adjustable feeder on the mill hopper, having the drill on the slowest speed, spraying the grain with warm water before milling, ensuring the mash return has the hot water in there before taking note of the mash water, increasing liquor/grain ratio, stiring mash often, very slow drain of mash and sparge to keggle.
the rig





double batch mash - I have to use the wood and clamp to hold the mash return in place, will be changing it to add some more copper line which will be self supporting





just before the boil over - the pavers get a rinse after the brew so no sticky residue is left


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## Dan Pratt (21/8/12)

cdbrown said:


> Here's some pics of a recent brew. I'm starting to get the efficiency up to 65% for the doubles which I'm very happy with. Adding an adjustable feeder on the mill hopper, having the drill on the slowest speed, spraying the grain with warm water before milling, ensuring the mash return has the hot water in there before taking note of the mash water, increasing liquor/grain ratio, stiring mash often, very slow drain of mash and sparge to keggle.
> the rig
> 
> 
> ...


Nice 3v! What is the final cost for the setup? Thinking of upgrading and doing some price/time comparisons.


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## gava (21/8/12)

Im no sparky but aren't you suppose to ground to the case and also have a ground to the door also?



cdbrown said:


> Some pics for those that are playing at home.
> 
> Filled the HLT last night, hung the probe into water, hooked up the power cable to the element and flicked the switch and amazingly it worked. However not without a hitch. The HLT PID was returning an error which I'd seen before when the probe is wired up wrong. After lots of checking, turning on the HERMS PID and seeing that it was measuring the temp I swapped out the probes and found the longer probe wasn't working properly. Got the HLT heating underway and managed to go from 16C up to 90ish in 90mins with about 45L odd in the keg which is about what I thought it would. Will wrap it in insulation which will help as I'm sure the 13c ambient temp was trying it's best to remove some of the heat generated.
> 
> Now the longer probe which wasn't working - I managed to pull the end cap off to discover two out of the three wires had broken away from the solder. Stripped, cleaned and resoldered Added some heat shrink and put it back together to get a working probe again. Tonight will test the HERMS coil for leaks (although I'm fairly confident there isn't any now), test the HERMS PID and element (and understand how to program the ramp/soak), make up the mash return manifold, wrap some insulation around the kegs and cut the silicone hose to length (I'm thinking I probably don't have enough). Brewing is definitely getting closer.....


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