# Seeking natural source of yeast nutrient



## TimT

I may have mentioned this before, but I'm sure someone on this site who reads this must know the answer to my question.

I'm seeking a natural source of yeast nutrient - not just dead yeast cells (that one's easy - chuck some old yeast in the boil). I'm also wanting a natural source of free amino nitrate or FAN, which apparently yeast loves.

It is a mite irritating having to buy a crapload of additives for what is essentially a simple process of fermentation when I'm sure there must be something in the kitchen providing those nutrients already.

My theories about possible natural sources of yeast nutrient:

- raisins, currants, sultanas
- fruit in general (yeast often live on them)
- barley and barley malt
- Irish moss, agar

Am I on the right track here, folks?

EDIT: Removed 'ammonia', replaced with 'amino'.


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## djar007

Pretty sure you are not looking for ammonium nitrate. Thats what I use at work mixed with diesel to make things explode. What you are looking for is free amino nitrogen. Cant help you with where to get it. I thought yeast nutrient was mainly zinc.


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## Parks

I think the key would be getting the right stuff in there without any extras, and then getting the right amounts.

Keen to hear if anyone does have any good info on it.


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## JDW81

What is wrong with the prepared yeast nutrient by wyeast and others? They will give you your nitrates and other trace elements for healthy fermentation. The issue with a lot of your suggested sources as they are club med for wild yeast, which may not be killed off in the boil and may also impart flavours you're not after or if you use too much fruit and boil it you can run into clarity issues as the boil draws out the pectins.

IMHO the commercial nutrient preparations are the way to go (unless you have an allergy or are trying to make certified organic beer). Surely it isn't that much hassle to buy a small tube of nutrient and add 1/2 a teaspoon to each boil or yeast starter? 

JD


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## GalBrew

TimT said:


> It is a mite irritating having to buy a crapload of additives for what is essentially a simple process of fermentation when I'm sure there must be something in the kitchen providing those nutrients already.



Really?? More irritating than say buying malt, hops or yeast, which come from the same shop?

Keep in mind also that wort fermentation does not require yeast nutrient. We put nutrients in to get the best performance from yeast that we can, so there isn't going to be a 'natural' source of yeast nutrient (for brewing purposes) per se. Also keep in mind that the production of beer is not a 'natural' process ( although fermentation is), therefore 'natural' beers and wine for that matter is a misnomer in my opinion.


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## TimT

What? I think the boil pretty much kills everything, definitely yeast.

Correction: I always get the name wrong. It's free AMINO nitrogen (just looked it up). 

I don't mind non-organic stuff - just annoys me having to keep buying small additives. If you can do the trick, say, by throwing in sultanas to the boil, why wouldn't you? My understanding is the yeast only neds a small amount and you would be able to do it in quantities that wouldn't compromise the quality of the final brew.

I have a theory that the pre-Reinheitsgebot brews - medieval gruits, etc that involved lots of herbs and additives - were popular not only because of the flavour and quality of the final brew, but because the amount of herbs and fruit added gave the yeast plenty of nutrient, and therefore tended to ferment more efficiently.


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## TimT

I HAVE heard of other brewers using Vegemite. That's not 'organic' of course but it is in most Australian kitchens. Have even heard of the addition of odd ingredients like, say, a raw steak.... (Old time recommendation - not going to try that one). I also remember someone on AHB - can't remember who - saying that barley malt is quite a rich environment anyway and has no need for nutrient.


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## fletcher

if you're going down that route, i reckon it'd be more fun to source/create/culture/discover your own yeast!

try the vegemite and report back. i'd be keen to hear how it turns out.


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## TimT

Truth be told yeast nutrient may be more of an issue for my meads than my beers. Not sure, since our honey is just backyard, and we remove it from the honeycomb by the crush-and-strain method - ie, a lot of trace elements (wax, propolis, the odd dead bee part) probably get in there as well, which may provide nutrient that would otherwise be lacking.

I'll keep a close eye on the meads as they ferment, may be able to see whether the addition of fruits adds an extra vigour to the yeast


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## superstock

TimT said:


> Truth be told yeast nutrient may be more of an issue for my meads than my beers. Not sure, since our honey is just backyard, and we remove it from the honeycomb by the crush-and-strain method - ie, a lot of trace elements (wax, propolis, the odd dead bee part) probably get in there as well, which may provide nutrient that would otherwise be lacking.
> 
> I'll keep a close eye on the meads as they ferment, may be able to see whether the addition of fruits adds an extra vigour to the yeast


Meads and ciders are lacking in yeast nutrients, not so much beer, dead yeast is a natural source as you said. The other easily obtainable natural source is raisins, *NOT *sultanas or currants. Sultanas are treated with something (I don't know what) to give them the colour and most commercial currants aren't dried grapes, they're berries. When you use raisins a good handfull (20-25 count ) per 5 litres and chop them to expose the inner flesh.


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## TimT

Thanks for advice, Superstock!

_The other easily obtainable natural source is raisins, *NOT *sultanas or currants. Sultanas are treated with something (I don't know what) to give them the colour_

Maybe not organic sultanas though? I've seen sultanas used in ginger beer starter recipes, which often also recommend organic sultanas.


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## TimT

If raisins and (maybe) organic sultanas then I suspect some other fruit too would be - they're a very rich environment after all, and discussions about brewing with apples, for instance, frequently mention wild yeasts. But from the sounds of it sultanas would be the best. So hard to get definite information on this though - very grateful for the response!


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## carniebrew

I'm confused...sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't you talking about this stuff? http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/search/8YEAST+NUTWY1.5B





> a blend of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, free amino nitrogen compounds, zinc, phosphates, and other trace elements beneficial for rapid and complete, fermentation


It goes in the boil, 10 minutes before the end. The nutrients in it don't get 'killed'. Mind you if you're that worried, from what I understand you can put this straight into the fermenter before pitching your yeast, you only boil it to make sure it's sterilised. (I bought a Morgans kit ginger beer recently that came with a pack of yeast nutrient under the lid, separate from the yeast, it said to chuck it straight into the FV).

The wyeast stuff above needs only 1/2 teaspoon in a ~20l batch, so it costs like 20c a time. And you can buy it in 2lb containers instead of a 1.5oz test tube if you want to save even more (less than half the price I think).


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## TimT

Don't have that brand Carniebrew, but have used two other brands - one was a mix of dead yeast cells and free amino nitrogen, the other is just free amino nitrogen. No, I wasn't referring to that when I was saying 'the boil pretty much kills everything' - just the suggestion by JDW81 that wild yeast on raisins, etc, might not get killed in the boil. I know some microorganisms can be quite heat tolerant, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand they don't interfere with a clean beer ferment.


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## blackbeard2

I know it's not strictly a "nutrient" for the yeast, but have you tried or considered adding a minute amount of olive oil? 

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?tab=ww&ei=6afLUovlJ8WBlQXb8oHgBw&ved=0CBUQ1S4#q=olive+oil+yeast+starter

Seems to be lots of homebrewers claiming that it improves fermentaion in one way or another, meets your criteria for being a readily accessibly, common ingredient. The biggest issue I see with it is being able to accurately measure a small enough quantity of it for ~ 20L of wort.


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## carniebrew

TimT said:


> Don't have that brand Carniebrew, but have used two other brands - one was a mix of dead yeast cells and free amino nitrogen, the other is just free amino nitrogen. No, I wasn't referring to that when I was saying 'the boil pretty much kills everything' - just the suggestion by JDW81 that wild yeast on raisins, etc, might not get killed in the boil. I know some microorganisms can be quite heat tolerant, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand they don't interfere with a clean beer ferment.


Cool, so does the wyeast yeast nutrient solve your problem?


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## superstock

Modern commercial supermarket raisins aren't a problem, they are virtually sterile when packed. Commercial sultanas are treated as I have said, and I believe that treatment can be a problem. On the other hand, organic sultanas may have been sun dried and could have aquired some air borne organisms just waiting to erupt.
The way it was explained to me--------the grape is the perfect enviroment for the yeast, it is a wonderful packet with just the right amount of sugars and nutrients and water and a skin that can nurture the yeast until the skin ruptures and the yeast can gain access.
With the dried versions all man has done is removed the water, which also made the skin tougher.
Why does every thing have to be boiled? Just chop the raisins and throw them into the fermenter.


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## manticle

As far as I understand sufficient FAN should be provided from malt in an AG brew. If you are adjusting water with calcium salts (which are naturally occuring chemicals although I don't know how 'natural' the process is of isolating them and putting them in a little bag), then the other main nutrient that may be deficient is zinc which you can buy again as salts, although less readily. Does mean buying several little baggies which doesn't solve your issue but if you can find foodstuffs containing zinc and calcium and somehow translate that to a desired amount without horrible flavour results, you might be on the path you want to be on. That last part is totally hypothetical.

Meat has been added to various beverages as a source of nitrogen - adding red meat or chicken was an old remedy for stalled ferments. I'd avoid that personally.

Find out what nutrients you actually want then investigate more natural sources of them would be my bet (or add in some salts - seasoning, preserving and salting food has historical origins and precedent).

Or try without nutrient at all - while you will miss zinc, see what the actual effect is. If you sufficiently aerate the wort, don't mash all over the place, pitch healthy sufficient yeast, etc then nutrient might be unnecessary. I add it as a safeguard not because my beers were shit without it.

Cider and mead etc are a different story.


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## O'Henry

I have used old yeast in the boil for adding extra zinc without any problems. I highly recommend it.

As for FAN, all grain brews shouldn't have any problems, if so, you need to look at the malt you are using. Try getting the malt specs from your HB shop or grain supplier. Should be able to give them to you if you buy a whole sack.

Edit: +1 manticle


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## TimT

All very helpful suggestions, thanks.

_Find out what nutrients you actually want then investigate more natural sources of them would be my bet (or add in some salts - seasoning, preserving and salting food has historical origins and precedent)._

I have thought of this, though one difficulty is a lot of people tend not to distinguish between compounds that contain certain elements, and the elements themselves - and just refer to those elements by way of shorthand. Similar to my very embarassing mistake, in which I refer to 'free ammonia nitrogen' and not 'free amino nitrogen'. So the popular literature - by which I mean mostly websites, which I am limited to not being a scientific expert myself - can be confused and confusing about such subjects. Certainly, apart from brewing websites, 'free amino nitrogen' doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on the web. This conversation, however, is very very helpful.


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## TimT

Superstock - boil to kill the wild yeasts. Though this may not matter either - stronger yeasts will almost always dominate. Perhaps boil as a precautionary measure.


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## sp0rk

blackbeard2 said:


> I know it's not strictly a "nutrient" for the yeast, but have you tried or considered adding a minute amount of olive oil?
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/webhp?tab=ww&ei=6afLUovlJ8WBlQXb8oHgBw&ved=0CBUQ1S4#q=olive+oil+yeast+starter
> 
> Seems to be lots of homebrewers claiming that it improves fermentaion in one way or another, meets your criteria for being a readily accessibly, common ingredient. The biggest issue I see with it is being able to accurately measure a small enough quantity of it for ~ 20L of wort.


The amount you need is less than a bee's wiener
I've done it a few times, I heat sterilize a pin, let it cool and then scrape it inside the neck of the bottle
This gets the tiniest coating and then I give it a stir in the starter
It does work for me, but I've been too lazy to do it for my last few brews
The theory/SCIENCE! is that yeast turns oxygen into unsaturated fatty acids, which helps yeast grow and create cell walls, olive oil contains oleic acid, which does the same thing (apparently)
I've got a few beers and ciders planned for the next few months, so I might give it a try again soon


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## TimT

_As far as I understand sufficient FAN should be provided from malt in an AG brew._

Cool, so this suggests that one way of storing up yeast nutrient, especially for meads and other non-grape wines, etc, would be simply by taking a small portion of your wort before adding hops/flavourings etc. Maybe freeze it. Of course the question is, why wouldn't you want to keep it all for the beer, but my guess is it wouldn't have to be much. (It's all a bit speculative).

In answer to your last question Carniebrew, no not really - the product you suggest is just a variant product on the other ones you can get at brew stores. I'm looking for a common product you can just find around your home, or in the garden.

I take Galbrew's point about beer making being not entirely natural, and therefore buying yeast nutrient to give the yeast optimal performance is a simple and easy solution - but for my brewing I'd like to also have the option of just using, for instance, sultanas or raisins. The science is still very vague to me - but the responses on this thread have given me more of an idea of my options. Thanks everyone! I'll keep this thread open in case anymore helpful and creative solutions for using yeast nutrient come through!


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## TimT

This all suggests to me what I'd suspected already - that older methods of brewing, in which pots full of a sweet ale wort or wine must were left out to catch a wild yeast, and then were considered to contain that yeast in subsequent years - may have had something to them. If you don't clean out the pot thoroughly, then dormant and dead yeast cells will hang around, providing zinc for later colonies. And if you make beer in a pot or barrel one year, then some yeast nutrients inherent in wort will stay in the vessel, waiting for the next brew to come along.

(Only makes sense if you don't clean the vessels thoroughly of course, which is, er, somewhat antithetical to modern practices  Though if you have a barrel you're never going to be able to sterilise the lot anyway and I wouldn't be surprised if even in modern times brewers who use barrels just refill their barrel with another wort or must straight after they empty it, so the young and vigorous yeast cultures take over where the older yeast cultures left off.)


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## O'Henry

I don't think storing a small portion of the wort would be enough. You would need more than that. For some reason I have it in the back of my mind that 60% or more should have enough FAN, but the number may be more. The less malt you have the more likely you are to run into FAN problems, esp when the malt isn't great for FAN. 

Lager malt usually has a higher FAN spec, I'm guessing due to the typical use of adjuncts with it.


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## superstock

TimT said:


> Superstock - boil to kill the wild yeasts. Though this may not matter either - stronger yeasts will almost always dominate. Perhaps boil as a precautionary measure.


Don't know what boiling would do to the nutrients in the dried grape. Have only ever used commercial yeast nutrient in beer and *raisins* as described previously in meads and ciders.


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## GalBrew

Keep in mind that while servo from White Labs are dead yeast, they were pre loaded with zinc, which is why they are zinc rich. The other problem you have is the bioavailability of you nutrient of choice. For example there is plenty of nitrogen in the air, but this cannot be used by yeast, hence the need for FAN, which can be metabolised by yeast.


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## TimT

I wonder a bit about the boiling too Superstock, though given that others recommend throwing yeast nutrient into the boil anyway maybe FAN isn't particularly affected by a boil.


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## TimT

So a method could be -
boil wort or must, maybe add a tiny bit of vegemite or old yeast to the boil so the yeast dies but the nutrients remain
get a few raisins, not that many, maybe chop them up to expose flesh and so the bits of raisin can be dispersed throughout the wort or must (though some of the ginger beer starter recipes I've seen just recommend throwing them in whole) (note here I am assuming that the yeast you want to ferment your brew will be so healthy and vigorous it will overwhelm any wild yeast living on your raisins)
chuck into the fermentation vessel along with yeast, add the wort or must, aerating if necessary
seal and let it have a yeast party.

If beer: quite possible you could skip most of these steps. If making a wine, (provided it's a non-grape wine) follow these steps to ensure the yeast gets enough to eat.


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## superstock

TimT said:


> I wonder a bit about the boiling too Superstock, though given that others recommend throwing yeast nutrient into the boil anyway maybe FAN isn't particularly affected by a boil.


Commercial yeast nutrients are concentrated chemical salts, ignoring the dead yeast type, and as such are probably not affected by the boiling. But use too much and you can affect the taste. Natural nutrients are less concentrated and so you need more of it by volume but it is almost impossible to overdose, although I imagine large volumes may add flavour. Also if you put the raisins in whole, the yeast have to wait until the skin becomes permeable before they can access the nutrients. This may inhibit the yeasts growth.
My personal feeling is s/h yeast in the boil for beer, raisins,tea and lemon juice in ciders and meads.
I've never had a problem using raisins straight from the packet. There is an opened packet in the cupboard presently which if contaminated would be going off after the heat and humidity we've had lately and it's not.


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## TimT

Just as follow up to this - I'd been wondering what the odd yeast-looking clouds were in my latest brew, a yarrow and raspberry leaf saison. Several small round pale yellow blobs hovering at the top when all the rest of the foam had pretty much cleared up. I'd noticed them yesterday morning and was starting to get a tad worried this morning - I was thinking, 'hmmm, did any of the herbs I put in during the boil accidentally get into the fermenter?' Or even worse - 'is it an infection?'

And then it hit me.

Small. Round. Pale yellow. Blobs.

They're the bloody raisins I put in. The yeast is living on them in happy yeasty colonies!

I'm a nong, but a happy nong


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