# Usa's New Fascination With No Chill



## Fatgodzilla (4/3/09)

I go to the US site HomeBrewTalk for a different look at how the other mob does things. The recent BYO feature on Australian brewing opened a thread about No Chill which I got into. Two major concerns the Yanks have which I have never thought of is botulism and now why a cube doesn't allow too much oxygen in. Below is a post that someone here will have an idea of what this guy is asking me. All sane and not Off Topic comments would be considered. 





> Sorry to drag you all back to the botulism argument, but you are all missing one really important fact: the cubes used to store the wort are made of polyethylene, and polyethylene allows a lot of oxygen through it. So, once the wort is cooled, oxygen will to permeate the wall of the cube, dissolve in the wort, and the wort will become oxygen-saturated in a matter of days.
> 
> I did some math based on the oxygen transmission rates posted here - http://www.flextank.com.au/PDF_Files/2-Year-Update.pdf and came up with a transmission rate of about 2 ppm per day based on a full 20 liter cube, 27 cm on a side. So, in 4 days, enough oxygen could get in to saturate the wort. Voila, no spore growth since an anerobic environment is needed. I suspect the rate limiting factor is the diffusion of oxygen through the wort, not the permeation through the cube wall.
> 
> ...


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## reviled (4/3/09)

A few things, I know that cubes do let in a small amount of oxygen over a long amount of time, but come on, enough to completely saturate the wort?? I doubt it, specially seeing as when you completely squeeze oxygen out of the cube the shape changes, if oxygen was getting back in there surely the cube would return to a 'cube' shape??

And botulism, I know nothing about, I think we need to come down to what causes botulism? And how this would be directly related to no-chilling?? I mean, what is it that causes botulism from no chilling that wouldnt occur in a normal chilling brew. Ive no chilled about 30 batches and i dont think I have botulism?? :huh: I dunno, maybe I do :lol:


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## reviled (4/3/09)

Taken from wikipedia

"Normal symptoms include dry mouth, double and/or blurred vision, difficulty swallowing, muscle weakness, drooping eyelids, difficult breathing, slurred speech, vomiting, urinary incontinence and sometimes diarrhea"

Isnt it funny how alot of those symptoms seem to be normal symptoms of drinking alcohol (ok maybe not as intense but still)


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## fraser_john (4/3/09)

The oxygen is dissolved, so not sure whether that would make a difference to the cube shape??? Dunno enough about chemistry to properly comment.

May Dr.Smurto can help.....


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## white.grant (4/3/09)

I thought squeezing the cube to limit the headspace was to reduce the possibility of infected wort from airborne yeasts or other nasties.

cheers

grant


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## reviled (4/3/09)

fraser_john said:


> The oxygen is dissolved, so not sure whether that would make a difference to the cube shape??? Dunno enough about chemistry to properly comment.
> 
> May Dr.Smurto can help.....



Im not a scientist either so im probably wrong  

But anyways, a PET bottle when carbed up, wont lose co2 untill about 9-12 months, and it happens slowly... So why, would Co2 escape mega slow, yet oxygen can get in over a period of days?? 

Just a thought..


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## braufrau (4/3/09)

Oh no! Not botulism and no chill again! again! again!
It was done *to death* (no pun intended) on the original no chill thread.
Please don't start Darren up again.







Although .. no one mentioned permeability of the cube to oxygen, that's novel, I'll admit.


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## mika (4/3/09)

Botulism thing been done to death on this forum before. Darren (IIRC) was/is the driving force behind that argument. Whatever the argument, it doesn't happen. Enough people on here no-chilling to de-bunk that.

My understanding was that the oxygen was excluded so that the hot wort was in contact with the walls for sanitisation as well as preservation.
People have argued about the permeability of plastics and their suitability for fermenting in for ages, I thought the cubes were made from the same plastic the fermenters were and there's a lot of people making good beer in plastic fermenters.
Not a very scientific answer, but still valid I believe.


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## Adamt (4/3/09)

Well... to answer the question... the headspace will contain air and anything else in the air (that probably wouldn't survive the pasteurisation anyway). Very little headspace = very little air = very little chance anything else in the atmosphere is in there. There's nothing wrong with oxygen in the wort if there's nothing there (alive) to grow in it!

As for those calculations regarding oxygen uptake... sounds a little fishy to me. Those numbers only take into account permeability through the plastic, it does not include the added resistance of absorption, and other factors (pressure differences, etc). The best way would be to test for DO in cubed worts.


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## Adamt (4/3/09)

reviled said:


> Im not a scientist either so im probably wrong
> 
> But anyways, a PET bottle when carbed up, wont lose co2 untill about 9-12 months, and it happens slowly... So why, would Co2 escape mega slow, yet oxygen can get in over a period of days??
> 
> Just a thought..




The CO2 molecule is larger than the O2 molecule so O2 can get through the gaps easier... it's a little more complex than that but that basically explains it.


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## Fatgodzilla (4/3/09)

braufrau said:


> Oh no! Not botulism and no chill again! again! again!
> It was done *to death* (no pun intended) on the original no chill thread.
> Please don't start Darren up again.
> 
> ...



Thankfully I missed the botulism argument first time around. There I was thinking "dumb Yanks" what would make them think like that. 

I tried to use the argument that it works, why worry about the maths. Common sense. 

I'm happy with the air space argument. But this permeability issue threw me. I'm an accountant, not a scientist or engineer. I like suck it and see type solutions, not complicated. What do they say on Mythbusters - "I'll take your reality and substitute it for one of my own " , it may not be right, but I like that idea !


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## Swinging Beef (4/3/09)

Adamt said:


> The CO2 molecule is larger than the O2 molecule so O2 can get through the gaps easier... it's a little more complex than that but that basically explains it.


Isnt it an "O" molecule, not an "O2"


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## mika (4/3/09)

Oxygen is always paired up, it's just how it rolls.


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## RetsamHsam (4/3/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> Isnt it an "O" molecule, not an "O2"



lol

I thought they were talking about a certain telco :lol:


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## SJW (4/3/09)

botulism botulism botulism
Where's Darren?
:lol:


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## Fents (4/3/09)

Its not all about botulism and oxygen.

If i had an unlimited amount of water to play with i would probably chill too but its Australia and here in VIC we are ina SERIOUS drought.

no ones died yet from no chilling.... and a few of brewers have lost a cube to infection via air getting sucked in....i'll take my chances and keep no chilling and leave some water for my kids to hopefully drink unless all our catchments get filled pronto.


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## jonocarroll (4/3/09)

reviled said:


> But anyways, a PET bottle when carbed up, wont lose co2 untill about 9-12 months, and it happens slowly... So why, would Co2 escape mega slow, yet oxygen can get in over a period of days??


 I'm not home right now, so I can't check my cubes, but according to that article, the cubes are made of polyethylene, which (for those that can read these) looks like this






whereas PET bottles (Polyethylene terephthalate) is a different substance, which looks like this






Entirely different beasts if I understand correctly - and likely PET could be more resistant to O2 and CO2 permeation.

As with most of these discussions, a complete lack of evidence that you can get botulism from no-chilling seems to suggest that it's not really a problem. I would also agree that those calculations mentioned probably don't account for the pressure of the fluid inside the cube. Besides, if the wort was fully oxygen saturated after a few days, shouldn't yeast in the fermenter revert to the aerobic reproductive phase? I shall gladly continue to no-chill.


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## Ronin (4/3/09)

reviled said:


> And botulism, I know nothing about, I think we need to come down to what causes botulism? And how this would be directly related to no-chilling?? I mean, what is it that causes botulism from no chilling that wouldnt occur in a normal chilling brew. Ive no chilled about 30 batches and i dont think I have botulism?? :huh: I dunno, maybe I do :lol:



Botulism is caused by a toin from Clostridium botulinum, an obligate anaerobe (can't tolerate oxygen) that is normally found in soil. It's in the same family as clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene) and clostridium tetanai (tetanus). Which is why you get a tetanus shot after stepping on a nail in the garden.

I'm not a food microbiologist (I'm medical), but I do know that clostridium botulinum can cause the build up of toxins in foods.

I think that the increase in the 'chance' of a botulinum infection is because of the prolonged time the beer is anaerobic after the boil. If you chill straight away then you are also probably aerating and pitching straight away, which means the clostridium can't grow. Again I'm a medical microbiologist (more of an immunologist really but that's OT).

I'm of the opinion that if the organism hasn't infected a lambic,which I know supports the growth E. coli and Klebsiella pneumoniae in the early phases of fermentation, then the chances of it infected a non-spontaneously fermented beer is not worth worrying about. A lambic sits in the coolship, without oxygen introduced overnight, exposed to who knows what (E. coli and Klebsiella are known). After seeing the condition of some lambic breweries in beer hunter, I'd be more worried about organisms in lambics than Clostridium in no chilled wort.

James


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## Ronin (4/3/09)

Fents said:


> Its not all about botulism and oxygen.
> 
> If i had an unlimited amount of water to play with i would probably chill too but its Australia and here in VIC we are ina SERIOUS drought.
> 
> no ones died yet from no chilling.... and a few of brewers have lost a cube to infection via air getting sucked in....i'll take my chances and keep no chilling and leave some water for my kids to hopefully drink unless all our catchments get filled pronto.



I can't agree more. 

I'd love to get a plate chiller, but I simply can't justify the use of water to cool my beer when we are on stage 4 water restrictions (Geelong) and the beer is perfectly fine being no chilled.

More people should consider this when using chillers IMO.

James


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## buttersd70 (4/3/09)

To quote an expert on botulism; the man himself, the Grim Reaper:


> Shut up! Shut up you American. You always talk, you Americans, you talk and you talk and say 'Let me tell you something' and 'I just wanna say this', Well you're dead now, so shut up.



 :lol:


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## Cortez The Killer (4/3/09)

Just finished reading the HomeBrewTalk thread

It was epic

Good work FGZ in directing the topic and clearing up trouble spots

I see the wiki I wrote makes a guest appearance too! 

I don't really have anything to add to the no-chill discussion that hasn't been said before

I do look forward to more extensive hop bitterness/flavour/aroma usage in the cube experiments 

Cheers


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## MVZOOM (4/3/09)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Just finished reading the HomeBrewTalk thread
> 
> It was epic
> 
> ...



Link?


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## Benbrewer (4/3/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> I'm not home right now, so I can't check my cubes, but according to that article, the cubes are made of polyethylene, which (for those that can read these) looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would think that oxygen transport through the polyethylene would be:
1. faster if the density inside the container is lower than the external pressure;
2. equal if internal and external pressures are constant, and
3. slower if the internal pressure is higher

If the container contains a liquid,then the transfer of 02 would be slow as the internal environment would be liquid with some gases diffused, rather than a gas, such as the air outside the container.

Movement of gas across any membrane can be subject to pressure, and the container is not designed as a membrane, it is designed as a barrier. 

Therefore, unless the wort is an 02 attractant, I don't see the brew becoming saturated with 02 too quickly. Other wise polyethylene container would accept contamination and be unsuitable as a container.


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## Fatgodzilla (4/3/09)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Just finished reading the HomeBrewTalk thread
> 
> It was epic
> 
> ...




You know what its like when you try to help a situation but the more you get involved, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself :lol: That's why I retreated when I did. I thought your wiki would answer some questions - then along came the botulism sidetrack !

Hop bitterness in cube - we vary slightly in our calculations, but both know, it doesn't matter ! All the ibu calculations are guesses anyway ! But I'm waiting for the Americans to raise something new there !

Gotta love them Americans. They gave us McDonalds, KFC, Amarillo hops and the Global Financial Crisis. 3 out of 4's not bad.




> Shut up! Shut up you American. You always talk, you Americans, you talk and you talk and say 'Let me tell you something' and 'I just wanna say this', Well you're dead now, so shut up.


. Good one Butters.

I like the part in Meaning of Life about the accountants taking over the world .. and "sold you off for medical experiments!"
Being a Catholic accountant has its benefits !


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## Cortez The Killer (4/3/09)

MVZOOM said:


> Link?


http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/new-byo-au...article-104892/


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## Bribie G (4/3/09)

Ronin said:


> I can't agree more.
> 
> I'd love to get a plate chiller, but I simply can't justify the use of water to cool my beer when we are on stage 4 water restrictions (Geelong) and the beer is perfectly fine being no chilled.
> 
> ...



Last time I was in Geelong at Waurn Ponds it was the middle of January and you could crash chill any brew just by sticking it out of the window  My GF said 

"God, these poor people, I hope it gets warmer than this for them in the Summer"

"This is the summer"

"Oh my God, that's right, must be the jet lag  "

Edit: It was nice and cosy in the Bended Elbow :beerbang:


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## Hutch (4/3/09)

> I'm not sure why the cube use directions suggest minimizing air space, unless it is the originators of the idea didn't know about polyethylene's ability to transmit oxygen. Anyone know why? Fatgodzilla?



The simple answer to this is that we're trying to avoid over-exposure to oxygen while the wort is hot in the cube, as well as maximising the effect of the hot wort in pasturising the cube walls (though I would have thought the hot steam would do this anyway). 

Purging the headspace, as I understand, is intended to minimise the risk of Hot-Side Aeration, even though the jury is still out on the extent to which HSA affects long-term stability. I'm not sure whether there would be an appreciable reduction in HSA purging this tiny amount of air from the headspace, given the cubed wort is not intentionally splashed around while cooling.
Having said that, I purge, as it's minimal effort to insure against the potential for HSA.


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## mika (4/3/09)

Just re: the HSA. Interesting show about it covered by Jon Palmer on a Brew Strong episode from the Brewing Network.


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## wakkatoo (4/3/09)

BribieG said:


> "Oh my God, that's right, must be the jet lag  "


 :icon_offtopic: 
A bit over 2 years ago when we moved to QLD, the pilot advised us upon landing in Cairns to wind back our clocks "1 hour and 20 years".

Having lived in QLD for 2 years and since returned to Vic, that pilot was right.

God I miss the warmth tho! (11 degrees here atm :blink: )


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## PostModern (4/3/09)

I once ran some excess hot wort into a cube (about 1/3 full) and just left it to see what would happen. I rotated it to "pasteurise" all sides and it certainly felt hot. About a month later, it wasn't swelled, so I thought I'd open it. Full of green, foul sludge. So somewhere between "no air bubble" and "more air than wort" there is a point where spoilage will happen. I prefer minimal or no air to lots of air. However, my first no-chill cube was only about 3/4 full of wort and it made a decent beer. I pitched next day, tho.


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## drsmurto (4/3/09)

fraser_john said:


> The oxygen is dissolved, so not sure whether that would make a difference to the cube shape??? Dunno enough about chemistry to properly comment.
> 
> May Dr.Smurto can help.....



i think the yanks argument is based on PE but i assume you NCers use high density polyethylene (HDPE) and that calculation of his goes out the window. Gas permeability thru HDPE is much lower. 

Cheers
DrSmurto - a proud chiller (rainwater tanks recirculating so zero water usage)


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## warra48 (4/3/09)

The original post and qouted post by Fatgodzilla nominated a wall thickness of 1mm, (or 40mil, but presumaby he means .040"or 40 thousands of an inch).
Has anyone ever verified it's as thin as 1mm?
My guess is that it's thicker than that, and if so, the calculations will vary enormously.


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## unterberg (4/3/09)

Ronin said:


> Botulism is caused by a toin from Clostridium botulinum, an obligate anaerobe (can't tolerate oxygen) that is normally found in soil. It's in the same family as clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene) and clostridium tetanai (tetanus). Which is why you get a tetanus shot after stepping on a nail in the garden.
> 
> I'm not a food microbiologist (I'm medical), but I do know that clostridium botulinum can cause the build up of toxins in foods.
> 
> ...



You are right.
I dont think there is any reason to be worried about Clostridium botulinum. It is a very nasty bacterium and to my knowledge the reason that people really have fear of it is due to things happening in the past. Canned food when not sterilized properly had the nasty habit of growing anaerobes really well and Clostridium botulinum is one of them. The toxin produced is to my knowledge one of the most potent toxins know to man if not the most. Nevertheless women love it (botox in their face and all that crap)! No wonder you hear stories of bad things happening - it can kind of be expected with such a potent toxin in the hands of cosmetical surgeons...

But I wouldnt think Clostridium botulinum to come up in wort. There are other baceria better suited for wort. I remember from uni that we could grow Clostridium botulinum from potatoes + dirt but really only if properly sealed from air. Oxigen is toxic for Clostridium botulinum.


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## newguy (4/3/09)

I'm not a microbiologist but I remember reading a botulism pissing match on hbd.org many, many years ago. The information I gleaned from that very long protracted argument was that wort was too strong, sugar-wise, for the botulism producing bacteria to survive.

As for cubes being rather oxygen permeable.....isn't that kind of the point? You want lots of dissolved O2 prior to pitching your yeast. HSA is kind of a buggaboo - it only becomes a factor with long term storage (think BWs or RISs)......at least that's what a couple of pro brewers have told me.


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## Screwtop (4/3/09)

DrSmurto said:


> i think the yanks argument is based on PE but i assume you NCers use high density polyethylene (HDPE) and that calculation of his goes out the window. Gas permeability thru HDPE is much lower.
> 
> Cheers
> DrSmurto - a proud chiller (rainwater tanks recirculating so zero water usage)




Finally someone tweaked, there are cubes AND there are cubes, nuf said.

Screwy


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## Fatgodzilla (4/3/09)

Screwtop said:


> Finally someone tweaked, there are cubes AND there are cubes, nuf said.
> 
> Screwy




Just looked at all my cubes and none of them has any mention of HDPE or anything other than the manufacturers name and/or a date stamp and the Recycling code. Does this signify if they are HDPE ? 

Stop playing with my head Screwy .. ................. :blink:


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## boingk (4/3/09)

I'll quote myself here:



boingk said:


> Who gives a shit?


Seriously though, who does? I'd say the evidence found through practice has far outweighed any claim that it may be hazardous or detrimental. So why the argument in the first place?

I'd say that it doesn't matter a flying line of teacups, and wager that our friend on the far side didn't quite get the picture that a whole lot of us have been (and are still) doing this with no detrimental effects on the beer. Hopping becomes a bit different, but thats pretty much it AFAIK.

So lets 'chill out' and argue this point no longer.

Cheers - boingk


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## Fatgodzilla (4/3/09)

boingk said:


> I'll quote myself here:
> 
> 
> Seriously though, who does? I'd say the evidence found through practice has far outweighed any claim that it may be hazardous or detrimental. So why the argument in the first place?
> ...




I'm game .. who or what are you whinging about here !


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## mika (4/3/09)

The number in the middle of the stamp with the recycling logo defines the grade of plastic used I think. Could probably google it. It's been covered here before but as part of broader discussions, not something a search would find.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (4/3/09)

Can a moderator kill this now before it all gets very tedious again.


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## schooey (4/3/09)

Hey I'm interested, I haven't seen any of this before... It's like anything else on the www, dude, if you find it tedious, don't click the link. It's not like it's your bandwidth that's keeping it here


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## drsmurto (4/3/09)

A # 2 inside the recycling triangle indicates HDPE


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## hazard (4/3/09)

If you can supposedly get botulism from no-chill cube, what about from a FWK? I've used a few of the cubes from G&G and have definitely suffered from some of the symptons listed in a previous post - nausea, blurred vision, yadda yadda yadda. In fact, most Friday nights i get it.

ALso, if HDPE is better than PE, does anyone know if cubes and fermenters from Bunnings are HD or not? Or, just like TVs, is HD a marketing scam? Where can I get a true HD PE cube?

hazard


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## drsmurto (4/3/09)

hazard said:


> If you can supposedly get botulism from no-chill cube, what about from a FWK? I've used a few of the cubes from G&G and have definitely suffered from some of the symptons listed in a previous post - nausea, blurred vision, yadda yadda yadda. In fact, most Friday nights i get it.
> 
> ALso, if HDPE is better than PE, does anyone know if cubes and fermenters from Bunnings are HD or not? Or, just like TVs, is HD a marketing scam? Where can I get a true HD PE cube?
> 
> hazard



Um...

see previous post. :icon_cheers:


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## FarsideOfCrazy (4/3/09)

warra48 said:


> The original post and qouted post by Fatgodzilla nominated a wall thickness of 1mm, (or 40mil, but presumaby he means .040"or 40 thousands of an inch).
> Has anyone ever verified it's as thin as 1mm?
> My guess is that it's thicker than that, and if so, the calculations will vary enormously.



I'm a floor sander and one of the products I use comes in 20 litre cubes. Now I get quite a few of these (but I wouldn't be using them for anything food related after what's been in them) so every so often when I get too many building up I cut them up with a circular saw and I would guess that the wall thickness is at least 2mm thick. It's definatly not as thick as 3 mm though, except on the bottom.


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## katzke (5/3/09)

Well being a lurker and sometime poster from the USA I will give a bit of my thoughts.

I think it comes down to either you are better brewers or you have been raised on crap beer and dont know any better. I think you are better brewers.

I say that because anyone that brews out of cans over here is thought of as some cave man that would drink sewer water and think it was some kind of fancy ass bottled water. Then the people that brew with bulk liquid extract or dry malt extract are tolerated as beginners that do not know any better. They are converted to extract with added grains as a step to real brewing. So everyone knows you are not a real home brewer unless you brew all grain with all the fancy equipment piled in the extra room or garage. Funny part of that is I never heard of having a brew room or shed until I visited this site.

So once you understand that the mind of American home brewers, the ones that are active on the forums, have been brain washed into thinking that unless you brew all grain with the pile of equipment and the endless selection of hops and yeast you are not doing it the right way. Then you can understand why any question, or suggestion, of doing it different is religiously rejected.

I have given up on trying to convert them. I just look at what they are brewing and get recipe ideas and leave the rest.

The odd thing about all the equipment is if a competition was held you would win as I have read about some much more complicated brew systems on this forum then on any of the American sites. A fancy system here is 3 kegs with the top cut out and all connected by a confusing tangle of pipes and valves. It includes 2 gas burners and maybe one pump all setting on a heavy metal stand. Those same Aussie brewers with all the equipment will still help the K&K brewer and not think bad of them.

I have not even touched on what they read. Once an idea is put in a book it is gospel. If it is written in a magazine it is debated until some dope, that does not even know what they are writing, puts it in a book. Things like dont squeeze the bag, HSA, heat extracts tannins so dont boil the grains (they must have never heard of decoction), and my favorite if you can drink the water you can brew beer.

So if you ever get into a discussion with an American home brewer remember it is like talking religion or politics. You will not convert them even if they say your BIAB no-chill beer is the best they have ever had.


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## SDJ (5/3/09)

I usually squirt Co2 from my tank into the cube for 10 seconds or so before filling, hot wort does'nt need oxygen so dont give it any.

Been no chillin for over a year now, great brews, no sickness, not even a hangover.

just my 20c worth.


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## Jakechan (5/3/09)

katzke said:


> Well being a lurker and sometime poster from the USA I will give a bit of my thoughts.
> 
> I think it comes down to either you are better brewers or you have been raised on crap beer and dont know any better. I think you are better brewers.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the insight Katzke 

Cheers,
Jake


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## braufrau (5/3/09)

botulism hates hops.

"The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavor from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.
"

http://www.wikipatents.com/6623775.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6251461/claims.html


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## Adamt (5/3/09)

Just to clarify... 1ppm alpha acid is of the order of 1IBU.


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## Fatgodzilla (5/3/09)

DrSmurto said:


> A # 2 inside the recycling triangle indicates HDPE




Hey guys, I wouldn't have known this unless this was answered.



> got to do something to kill off this thread.
> All these new fellas must not of seen the epic "no chill method" thread and "Users of the no chill method".



Actually you can tell that we haven't. Nor have all the americans who have recently logged on to AHB to see the talk of no chill in cubes and BIAB following the recent write up of both in BYO magazine.

I'm actually unimpressed with some of you blokes who think themselves moral crusaders to express a negative about a thread which is not about botulism and no chill cubing. 

Read all the thread before making silly comments - you blokes have too much good positive advice to offer to let yourself down saying stuff like that.




> So if you ever get into a discussion with an American home brewer remember it is like talking religion or politics. You will not convert them even if they say your BIAB no-chill beer is the best they have ever had.



If there is only one who is converted, it'll be worth the effort !


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## RetsamHsam (5/3/09)

Unterberg said:


> Oxigen is toxic for Clostridium botulinum.



If this is the case, then the original argument about Oxygen Permeability of the cubes carries no weight..




boingk said:


> I'll quote myself here:
> 
> 
> Seriously though, who does? I'd say the evidence found through practice has far outweighed any claim that it may be hazardous or detrimental. So why the argument in the first place?
> ...



Botulism is not a very prevalent illness, only 110 cases are reported each year in the states and of those 110 cases only 25% are food borne. So to say that 'just because it hasn't happened yet it won't happen' is misguided IMO. 

In saying that, I no-chill my wort on most occassions and don't give the risks a second thought...


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## boingk (5/3/09)

First off, my initial post was seriously overly negative, I actually think its a good discussion going on here. I still think its a bit pointless though. I was under the impression that botulinum toxin was something that was quite rare and was easily destroyed at temperatures exceeding 60'C, as well as being inhibited by the presence of oxygen. I wasn't sure so checked it out on Wikipedia. The article is here for anyone wanting some more info. 

In any event I'd say developing botulism in a brew is a sufficiently unlikely occurance, when practises concerning brewing are sanitary, that it can be dispensed of as an issue of concern. I'm not denying that it happens, but merely saying that with proper practices (yes, including no chill) you would be hard-pushed to encounter a case of botulism in your beer over a lifetime.

Cheers all, and sorry about my angry rant further up the thread.

- boingk


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## Ronin (5/3/09)

boingk said:


> First off, my initial post was seriously overly negative, I actually think its a good discussion going on here. I still think its a bit pointless though. I was under the impression that botulinum toxin was something that was quite rare and was easily destroyed at temperatures exceeding 60'C, as well as being inhibited by the presence of oxygen. I wasn't sure so checked it out on Wikipedia. The article is here for anyone wanting some more info.
> 
> In any event I'd say developing botulism in a brew is a sufficiently unlikely occurance, when practises concerning brewing are sanitary, that it can be dispensed of as an issue of concern. I'm not denying that it happens, but merely saying that with proper practices (yes, including no chill) you would be hard-pushed to encounter a case of botulism in your beer over a lifetime.
> 
> ...



Just being picky, this is what I do after all.  The toxin isn't inhibited by oxygen, the bacteria is. It is heat labile though. And Clostridium are spore forming bacteria, which makes them a little harder to kill by heat. Generally for spores autoclaving is required. So even if you pasteurise the cube with the hot wort and a spore survives, technically it can grow.

That being said, as I said in my last post I very much doubt wort is a suitable environment for clostridium to grow, as long as you're careful and don't have big chunks of dirt in your wort. Interesting data posted by braufrau, 1IBU worth of alpha acid is enough to inhibit Clostridium and Helicobacter. I work in a lab where they research vaccines for helicobacter pylori, maybe I should suggest they start giving beer as a treatment! :lol:


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## Bribie G (5/3/09)

Just checked a 20l Willow cube and there's no recycling triangle anywhere, just a date stamp for 12 07 which is when it would presumably have been made.

I have emailed Willow. 

Also I see they have a 30 L fermenter style container that looks interesting, might see if Bunnings stock them and how much as one of my fermenters will need replacing soon.


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## boingk (5/3/09)

Cheers ronin, yeah I got my wires crossed on the botulism oxygen thingo - thanks for that one! Missed Braufraus post, too...think I need another coffee, not feeling too crash hot today. Interesting to see that even 1IBU worth of hopping is enough. Looks like we'll continue sitting pretty then.

Meanwhile, preparations for brewing this avo with the brother must continue. This stout (although technically a robust porter) won't make itself...

Cheers - boingk


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## Ronin (5/3/09)

boingk said:


> Cheers ronin, yeah I got my wires crossed on the botulism oxygen thingo - thanks for that one! Missed Braufraus post, too...think I need another coffee, not feeling too crash hot today. Interesting to see that even 1IBU worth of hopping is enough. Looks like we'll continue sitting pretty then.
> 
> Meanwhile, preparations for brewing this avo with the brother must continue. This stout (although technically a robust porter) won't make itself...
> 
> Cheers - boingk



I didn't think alpha acids were that potent a antimicrobial. I was actually thinking that my wheat beers would be the most susceptible to infection. But even they are at least 10 IBU.

I'm surprised there isn't more research into these compounds


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## br33zy (5/3/09)

Quite an interesting thread. There are some very valuable tidbits in amongst the angst:

The presence of oxygen in the cube actually reduces any risk of botulism. (The actual risk is irrelevant for most of us.)
Its not really necessary to squeeze cube to totally eliminate headspace. I find this very useful, because squeezing a cube full of hot wrt makes no-chilling more than a little dangerous in my opinion. After spilling a cube full of hot wrt over my (luckily booted) foot; I abandoned no-chill for a plate chiller. Knowing this I may just try it again.
We shouldn't be no-chilling into just any cube. Spend a little more and use food grade plastic.
Hops in the cube also reduce the risk of botulism (and other infections). Indeed I think this was why the Poms started adding hops to barrels of beer bound to India isn't it?
Cheers

Breezy


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## Jakechan (5/3/09)

boingk said:


> Meanwhile, preparations for brewing this avo with the brother must continue. This stout (although technically a robust porter) won't make itself...


 :icon_offtopic: 
Care to share your recipe Boingk (not here of course)? Ive just made my 2nd RB, and interested in what others are doing.
Cheers,
Jake


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## UncleMule (8/3/09)

:icon_offtopic: I'm sorry if this is off topic or has been answered many times before but I can't seem to find the answer in this thread (and others). I'm a "Yank" so it may just be a problem of terminology. 


When you use the word "cube" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean the expandable plastic 5 gallon water carriers used for camping? Like this one ?

expandable water jug

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Expandable-W...n/dp/B000088O9Y


I'm curious to try this but I don't know what you mean by "cube".

Thanks,
UncleMule


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## blackbock (8/3/09)

Hello UncleMule,

The container in those links look like they are made of very thin material which wouldn't be up to the job. 

The 'cubes' that people talk of are HDPE plastic containers of similar thickness to a plastic jerry can (in fact some people use the jerry shaped ones...) The main requirement being that they are made of a food safe plastic which won't collapse when boiling hot wort is filled into them. 

I'm sure there must be hundreds of photos of them on this site, search for 'no chill' and 'fresh wort' and you're sure to come across them.


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## technocat (8/3/09)

Ronin said:


> I can't agree more.
> 
> I'd love to get a plate chiller, but I simply can't justify the use of water to cool my beer when we are on stage 4 water restrictions (Geelong) and the beer is perfectly fine being no chilled.
> 
> ...



James probably getting off topic, but should be said that it defies belief that people on water restrictions don't consider water tanks as an option. With climate change looking like a permanant feature in our life time water tanks will be mandatory. My own personal veiw is that the no chill operation is fraught with danger and open to potential infection. If you feel the need to crash chill wort and get it into the fermenter in an instant using Immersion, Plate or Counterflow chillers, consider a couple of 200L drums, and a small water pump. These can be bought clean and in good condition from our local tip shop for as little as 5-10 dollars each. Living in the rural enviroment we have water storage just under 40,000L so pumping water through a chiller and back into the tanks is not a problem. Agreed running water down the drain is wastefull but with a little ingenuity this water can be used over and over to suit the purpose,


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## Mantis (8/3/09)

BribieG said:


> Just checked a 20l Willow cube and there's no recycling triangle anywhere, just a date stamp for 12 07 which is when it would presumably have been made.
> 
> I have emailed Willow.
> 
> ...



My two cubes from a local outdoors store also do not have the recycling triangle. I just have to hope they are ok I suppose. 
Brews out of them have been great but I have pitched the next morning each time, so only like 18-20hours in the cube.


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## Simon W (8/3/09)

UncleMule:

Usually:






Sometimes:





EDIT: for those wondering about the recycle codes... if you can find one:
http://www.ides.com/resources/plastic-recycling-codes.asp


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## Bribie G (8/3/09)

Willow emailed me back:

Hi Michael,

In regards to your question of what grade plastic is used in our Carry Cans it is HDPE - I hope this answer your question

Regards
Andrew

Andrew Kimpton-Cheong
National Sales Manager
Willow Ware Australia Pty Ltd
Tel 03 8346 0463
Fax 03 9338 6741
Mob 0449 902 566
Email [email protected]
www.willow.com.au


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## PostModern (8/3/09)

Beernut said:


> James probably getting off topic, but should be said that it defies belief that people on water restrictions don't consider water tanks as an option. With climate change looking like a permanant feature in our life time water tanks will be mandatory. My own personal veiw is that the no chill operation is fraught with danger and open to potential infection. If you feel the need to crash chill wort and get it into the fermenter in an instant using Immersion, Plate or Counterflow chillers, consider a couple of 200L drums, and a small water pump. These can be bought clean and in good condition from our local tip shop for as little as 5-10 dollars each. Living in the rural enviroment we have water storage just under 40,000L so pumping water through a chiller and back into the tanks is not a problem. Agreed running water down the drain is wastefull but with a little ingenuity this water can be used over and over to suit the purpose,



Of course you can use water over and over. The world's water cycle is proof of that. No chill isn't just about saving water. It also saves time, lets you store wort until you have yeast ready, and it allows you to brew when you have the time and ferment as needed. I'm sure I've mentioned this in previous posts, but I'll say it again. I once brewed almost continuously for a week as part of a long holiday. I ended up with full kegs, full fermenters and a pile of cubes of wort. For the next 5 months, I didn't need to fire up the brewery, I just tipped a cube of wort into a fermenter as needed. It was very liberating to have as much beer ready to go as I liked without having to spend a quarter of every weekend tied to the brewery.

I don't know how you think it invites infection or invites danger. Does jam making and canning do likewise?


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## matti (8/3/09)

One thing that is brough up quite frequently is trub going through to the fermenter when no chilling.

This was MHB's responce in another thread Quote "Getting too much break material into the fermenter is not good, apart from hops the trub contains lots of condensed protein and lipids that can redissolve in the brew, both head negative and bad for the storability of the beer" End of quote.

It happened to me when I brewed an APA.
Luckely APA's hides these flaws rather well.
One could detect in the final end note of tasting an astringency that wasn't meant to be there and it was not from excessive dry hopping.
The feed back was good and no bad comment about it.
Then again we were taking in Pumpy's delicious snacks at the time.

If you were to attempt brewing lager and no chill, I believe it is essential to minimise the trub going into the no chill cube and leave the majority of the trub in the NO-chill cube/jerry can.

A little trub going through can be used by the yeast but too much may taint the flavour profile of the lager.

Matti


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## PostModern (8/3/09)

Why is trub only a problem with no chill? I have a pickup tube and whirlpool the wort before running off. I only get cold break which forms in the cube, same as using a CFC.


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## matti (8/3/09)

I guess you are right providing you have the right Equipment and set up, you can mimimise the hot break completely.

You might just get a bit hazier beer and have to use more adjuct to clear it 
Real Beer


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## PostModern (8/3/09)

Speaking of which, I forgot to add kettle finings when brewing a stout last night. At least I won't see the haze


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## Bribie G (8/3/09)

Love that whirlfloc. 
Using an Urn the tap outlet is actually a fair way off the bottom of the kettle so it's easy to floc a good mat of trub onto the bottom and then get crystal clear wort into the cube, then when it gets to the tipping stage I can stop right at the stage when break is about to come through.

Got it down to a fine art.


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## technocat (8/3/09)

PostModern said:


> Of course you can use water over and over. The world's water cycle is proof of that. No chill isn't just about saving water. It also saves time, lets you store wort until you have yeast ready, and it allows you to brew when you have the time and ferment as needed. I'm sure I've mentioned this in previous posts, but I'll say it again. I once brewed almost continuously for a week as part of a long holiday. I ended up with full kegs, full fermenters and a pile of cubes of wort. For the next 5 months, I didn't need to fire up the brewery, I just tipped a cube of wort into a fermenter as needed. It was very liberating to have as much beer ready to go as I liked without having to spend a quarter of every weekend tied to the brewery.
> 
> I don't know how you think it invites infection or invites danger. Does jam making and canning do likewise?



Not sure how Jam and canning got into this but I guess it sure shortens the odds.


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## Pollux (8/3/09)

BribieG said:


> Love that whirlfloc.
> Using an Urn the tap outlet is actually a fair way off the bottom of the kettle so it's easy to floc a good mat of trub onto the bottom and then get crystal clear wort into the cube, then when it gets to the tipping stage I can stop right at the stage when break is about to come through.
> 
> Got it down to a fine art.




Actually, I have a question for you on this topic there Michael, do you whirlpool to make a cone of trub or let it settle to the base of the urn and then allow the height of the tap to basically separate the wort? And are you using a pickup tube at all??


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