# Sugar wash - flavouring



## damoninja (30/11/13)

Hi guys, 

I'm doing a wash to make some liquers for my non beer/cider drinking friends over Christmas. 
I've got a 10L wash going with 2.9kg sugar, OG about 1.120 using triple distilled turbo, liquid carbon and nutrient. It's blooping away nicely. The yeast used should yield approximately 15% alcohol leaving some sugar behind as desired for sweetness. 

I've got 3 of those little essence bottles to make a few different flavours, but they're so damn expensive at near $10 a pop. I bought 1 chocolate, blue curacao and a hazlenut.

I'm planning on making a coffee syrup to flavour another one (pretty easy but I wanted to know if anyone has any other suggestions of how to make cheap flavouring strong enough to go into a litre of sugar wash?

Any ideas welcome!

Cheers!

*Edit: *As discussed with bradsbrew, I'm not distilling... Just doing the first part in the spirit making process but NOT performing distillation.


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## Yob (30/11/13)

Not allowed to discuss spirits here man.. Forum rules


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## bradsbrew (30/11/13)

OP has stated he is not distilling, just fermenting water and sugar then adding flavour. Sounds horrible to me but hey, each to their own.

Thread reopened.

Cheers


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## damoninja (30/11/13)

bradsbrew said:


> OP has stated he is not distilling, just fermenting water and sugar then adding flavour. Sounds horrible to me but hey, each to their own.
> 
> Thread reopened.
> 
> Cheers


It's how loads of people make liqueurs! The yeast is designed to leave no flavour behind at all... It more or less makes alcoholic water. 

And no, there's absolutely no distilling going on here... I don't fancy going blind or dead.


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## Bribie G (30/11/13)

I used to make something similar for ghetto ginger beer. A really good quality ginger cordial such as Buderim from the supermarket hits the spot for anyone who likes a Stones type drink.

Edit: colour it up with some natural green or yellow and serve with some mint leaves in a tall glass with a cocktail umbrella and lots of crushed ice. Damn, could go one right now :icon_drool2:


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## QldKev (30/11/13)

I think you will be pushing it to get a decent sugar wash from a turbo yeast. They are designed for a quick ferment and are known to be nasty for off-flavours. I think you would be better off with a decent distillers yeast such as SafSpirit, even Lowans bakers yeast (from Coles and Woolies) would produce a better product.

But to answer your question, I would look at a caramel base. I would invert some brown sugar using some acid over heat. Have a look at AndrewQld's historic brewing blogs on here, he has one about inverting sugar. Then you could soak a few pieces of char'd american/french oak in it. To char the wood just wrap it in ailfoil and throw it in the oven at 200c for approx 2hrs.

Also check out the coffee flavorings, there are plenty of different flavors that may work.

I should add I have never tried to do what you are looking at, and having smelt a sugar wash don't think it would be the best.


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## damoninja (30/11/13)

Bribie G said:


> I used to make something similar for ghetto ginger beer. A really good quality ginger cordial such as Buderim from the supermarket hits the spot for anyone who likes a Stones type drink.
> 
> Edit: colour it up with some natural green or yellow and serve with some mint leaves in a tall glass with a cocktail umbrella and lots of crushed ice. Damn, could go one right now :icon_drool2:


Interesting, I don't really want to drop the alcohol % but I guess the cordials will only be 1 part cordial per 8 parts "water" or otherwise? Might be onto something. 

I didn't even thing of syrups


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## Bribie G (30/11/13)

OP is using carbon, might get rid of the skank flavours.


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## Glot (30/11/13)

Without really knowing but just a thought... Perhaps food flavourings from the super market such as peppermint etc.


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## damoninja (30/11/13)

QldKev said:


> I think you will be pushing it to get a decent sugar wash from a turbo yeast. They are designed for a quick ferment and are known to be nasty for off-flavours. I think you would be better off with a decent distillers yeast such as SafSpirit, even Lowans bakers yeast (from Coles and Woolies) would produce a better product.
> 
> But to answer your question, I would look at a caramel base. I would invert some brown sugar using some acid over heat. Have a look at AndrewQld's historic brewing blogs on here, he has one about inverting sugar. Then you could soak a few pieces of char'd american/french oak in it. To char the wood just wrap it in ailfoil and throw it in the over at 200c for approx 2hrs.
> 
> ...


Maybe in a beer? The actual yeast strain is apparently a wine yeast but packed as a turbo yeast due to the nutrients it has with it. 

But I've been led to understand that it's all dependent on the combination of nutrients / fermentables that the yeast can get its hands on to. Other than simple sugars, it came with a nutrient pack with sulphites and other crap that it wants. 

While it's fermenting it just smells like nothing, bit of sting from the CO2 on the nose but nothing to really smell. 



I'll taste it before I add any flavours and report back.


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## damoninja (30/11/13)

Bribie G said:


> OP is using carbon, might get rid of the skank flavours.


There's a carbon and 2 sets of fining agents to clear it up after it's done, maybe it does this too.


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## toncils (30/11/13)

I'd bet most of those skanky flavours in spirit washes are just due to slack sanitation- who bothers to make a flawless wash if it's going to be stilled?

Treat your sugar wash as you would a beer; boil it for about 15 (though you might caramalise it a bit), pitch healthy yeast (perhaps champagne yeast?), sanitise your tubs, ferment below 20c, etc.


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## Bribie G (30/11/13)

I read that the brewer at Doom Bar in the UK makes a "liqueur" beer by taking home a batch of his ale wort and fermenting it with turbo yeast, and hitting it with sugar till it reaches about port wine strength. Well regarded by dinner party guests.


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## HBHB (30/11/13)

So essentially, you're virtually making a toilet wine. If you put that wash through a lab / photospectometry etc, you wouldn't drink it. While the TD Turbo is amazingly clean by comparison to pretty much anything else out there in the same class, it's not designed to make something that's consumed before some form of distillation .

My advice would be to leave this stuff to those who don't care for the finer points of what they put into the relatively susceptible human body. The whole process of distillation is designed to not only concentrate ethanol, but to leave behind the rest of the garbage that would otherwise see the countries overburdened Accident and Emergency Departments flooded with the mis-informed and carefree who try to save a buck.

Turbo carbon and the chitosan 2 part finings will ensure a lot of crap never makes it to a boiler, but it isn't going to make any difference to the outcome of drinking this stuff.

As i said - "Advice" not trying to read the riot act and not advising on "spiritual matters".

Martin


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## damoninja (30/11/13)

HBHB said:


> So essentially, you're virtually making a toilet wine. If you put that wash through a lab / photospectometry etc, you wouldn't drink it. While the TD Turbo is amazingly clean by comparison to pretty much anything else out there in the same class, it's not designed to make something that's consumed before some form of distillation .
> 
> My advice would be to leave this stuff to those who don't care for the finer points of what they put into the relatively susceptible human body. The whole process of distillation is designed to not only concentrate ethanol, but to leave behind the rest of the garbage that would otherwise see the countries overburdened Accident and Emergency Departments flooded with the mis-informed and carefree who try to save a buck.
> 
> ...


Are you referring to the methanol that gets produced? Which is actually evaporated before ethanol? (better not get into much more detail, since we're starting to talk about distilling...............)

It's going to be 15%, what's the risk in drinking this vs a 15% wine?


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## poppa joe (30/11/13)

YUUUUCCCKKK>>>>


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## HBHB (30/11/13)

1st up, Not saying it's going to kill you or send you blind.

We're not discussing distillation. It's a valid discussion on a sugar wash or "low wine". There's plenty of guys out there that could more adequately discuss the entire gammut of chemistry involved.

TD Turbo actually doesn't form sufficient Methanol for it to be a major issue, though a tiny bit is formed - indeed less than most wines and less than some beer. Other turbo's can, however form significant amounts. (There's one brand being snuck into the country by fools that contains urea as a nutrient, which in turn forms toluene in the wash. - want liver cancer soon, just have some of that)

But there's a not insignifiant amount of acetone and a bunch of other fusels.

The gastrointestinal tract doesn't tend to cope well with washes and nausea is commonplace, along with gut aches, cramping and diarrhoea in a fair number of people. Histamine responses are actually pretty common from drinking these mixes and that's what causes most of the issues, alarm and thus hospital visits. 

Tends to lead to fairly severe hangovers as well. Probably due to high levels of acetaldehyde. Also, if anyone it's intended for has a shellfish allergy, then you can rule them out due to the chitosan. (Have seen 1 case of this - not pretty)

Hope this puts some perspective on it.

Martin


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## damoninja (30/11/13)

So do the guys from Brewcraft SA have any reps on this site? Since they sold me the stuff and their guy told me this is going to produce something that's fine and safe to drink without running it through a still.


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/12/13)

Get a better yeast than turbo and brew it low and slow.

Are you going to charcoal filter it ?


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## toncils (1/12/13)

damoninja said:


> So do the guys from Brewcraft SA have any reps on this site? Since they sold me the stuff and their guy told me this is going to produce something that's fine and safe to drink without running it through a still.


I worked in a retail place, and am very very far from being a chemist. The guy in Brewcraft was doing his job, to the best of his knowledge, but at the end of the day he's just there to exchange the product you want for moneys.

Still sounds like this debate can be cleared up with a champagne yeast.


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## damoninja (1/12/13)

toncils said:


> I worked in a retail place, and am very very far from being a chemist. The guy in Brewcraft was doing his job, to the best of his knowledge, but at the end of the day he's just there to exchange the product you want for moneys.
> 
> Still sounds like this debate can be cleared up with a champagne yeast.


To the best of his knowledge isn't good enough if it's going to make people sick. 

If someone tells you something about a product it has to be accurate. Consumer law.


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## punkin (1/12/13)

I try so hard to ignore this shit. But i hate to see the hobby distilling world attacked by ignorance.


Blind or dead for fucks sake from boiling and drinking it after it's condensed but you think you are safe from drinking the very same ingredients in the same quantities if you don't boil it. h34r:
Where the **** did that logic come from?


You recipe will make the vilest, most expensive wine like crap that people will have to be dared to swallow. It will have no relation to any of the spirits no matter how much cordial you tip in it.

You have not invented a really cool way to beat the bottlo.

If you think it's just ignorance from people who have never tried it then go ahead, brew it and share it with your friends. It won't injure you, but if you can gag down enough to get you smashed i garantee it won't be the next morning you'll be posting back the results :lol:


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## goomboogo (1/12/13)

As Punkin and HBHB have said, the issue with your proposal isn't that it will cause you dire physical harm. The issue is that it will taste quite awful. As far as the shop assistant aspect of this discussion is concerned, product knowledge is not a prerequisite for working at Brewcraft or some other Home Brew shops. Some people will know their stuff and some will not.


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/12/13)

punkin said:


> You recipe will make the vilest, most expensive wine like crap that people will have to be dared to swallow. It will have no relation to any of the spirits no matter how much cordial you tip in it.
> 
> You have not invented a really cool way to beat the bottlo.


Got to say I gave something like that a try.....white sugar + bakers yeast....many years ago.

I only did it once. It wont kill you is because it is undrinkable...

Just buy some cheap Vodka.


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## Kingy (1/12/13)

A sugar wash tastes like ass especially with turbo crap. Only good for distilling which is illegal. It's hard enough to drink someone's kit and kilo beer let alone kilo beer without the kit. 
If you want more recipes check out aussiedistiller.com in there recipe section.


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## toncils (1/12/13)

damoninja said:


> To the best of his knowledge isn't good enough if it's going to make people sick.
> 
> If someone tells you something about a product it has to be accurate. Consumer law.


Definitely, except when the product is being used differently than intended. I wouldn't have known the T-yeast is choccas with nasty crap.

Don't let everyone put you off, do some experiments; if it tastes like death even with careful thought, then give up.


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## Kingy (1/12/13)

The only way it would taste good is to boil the liquid eg distill. 
As that cleans it up and seperates the alcohol from the water and by products. But that is illegal so you can't do that.
But if you where in New Zealand you could do that to get the alcohol then water the alcohol down with fresh water to get a clean tasting product that you could use in recipes.


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## bradsbrew (1/12/13)

Just buy the cheap Blue curacao and hazelnut liqueur and serve that to your guests. Your just going to give home brew a bad rep otherwise. By all means experiment, but as for serving an experiment that has been given bad feedback from people experienced in this field is not going to do much for home brewing in general.

Cheers


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## damoninja (1/12/13)

toncils said:


> Definitely, except when the product is being used differently than intended. I wouldn't have known the T-yeast is choccas with nasty crap.
> 
> Don't let everyone put you off, do some experiments; if it tastes like death even with careful thought, then give up.


Consumer law says the product must live up to whatever the numpty sales person who sold it said it would do. Someone sells you a DVD player and says it will play a Bluray, get it home and it doesn't, oh well it's ok the guy "didn't know" so it's my fault. I asked the guy "if I do this will it just taste like water?", "yeah mate unless there's sugar left over then it will be sweet". 

Distilling - from what I've read thus far not illegal everywhere, if the still is under 5L and you pay the excise on it. Look up on ATO website. 

Results - I'm only $11 bucks in on this whole experiment, if it fails to taste like anything other than expected I'll do the alternative and buy some cheap vodkas and mix it that way.


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## damoninja (1/12/13)

Above distilling notes I wrote aren't correct, it's illegal to use the still to distill alcohol. 

You can buy them at my brewing store but not use it for the intended purpose. Hah...


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## punkin (1/12/13)

You were correct the first time. Distilling alchohol is perfectly legal in Australia if you hold the proper licence and pay the proper tax. It is illegal in all other cases.

Distilling essences or water is legal so long as your boiler is under 5 litre capacity.



11 bucks could have got you two nice schooners, but i guess you can't be told.


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## damoninja (1/12/13)

punkin said:


> You were correct the first time. Distilling alchohol is perfectly legal in Australia if you hold the proper licence and pay the proper tax. It is illegal in all other cases.
> 
> Distilling essences or water is legal so long as your boiler is under 5 litre capacity.
> 
> ...


I was told. I was told it would work out OK. By a retailer.


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## punkin (1/12/13)

Go for it then, he can't be wrong. B)


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## damoninja (1/12/13)

Not saying that, just saying it's annoying that people sell you stuff and just blindly tell you it's gonna be fine for what you're using it for when it's not.

I respect people's objective advice on these forums, just not the mouthiness this forum is notorious for.


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## djar007 (1/12/13)

These guys have been very helpful to you with advice in a thread that is very borderline. So perhaps the criticism of the forum is unwarranted. Perhaps not , but I feel that it is. And this whole discussion over a few dollars worth of ingredients. Do better next time and research before you buy and go to a decent homebrew store. Not brewcraft.


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## Bribie G (1/12/13)

Mate I'd go for a good wine yeast with a high acohol tolerance, and use a couple of sachets. Many modern wines are 14% ABV unfortified so it should get you into your ball park.

I used to make ginger beer on a regular wine LHBS yeast and it didn't take long at all, a couple of weeks max and it was indeed drinkable after extra ginger cordial mixed in, not to mention the cocktail umbrella.

You'd need yeast nutrient of course, I just used plain DAP, not knowing anything else, and it turned out fine and the "wash" was very dry so obviously the yeast did its job without conking out. I'd guess it was over 10% ABV.


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## damoninja (1/12/13)

Bribie G said:


> Mate I'd go for a good wine yeast with a high acohol tolerance, and use a couple of sachets. Many modern wines are 14% ABV unfortified so it should get you into your ball park.
> 
> I used to make ginger beer on a regular wine LHBS yeast and it didn't take long at all, a couple of weeks max and it was indeed drinkable after extra ginger cordial mixed in, not to mention the cocktail umbrella.
> 
> You'd need yeast nutrient of course, I just used plain DAP, not knowing anything else, and it turned out fine and the "wash" was very dry so obviously the yeast did its job without conking out. I'd guess it was over 10% ABV.


Cheers mate, I might give this a shot another time.


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## sp0rk (1/12/13)

I can attest to the disgustingness of wash-like brews
I've made a couple of batches of Kilju using Lemon, Ginger or Lemongrass for flavouring
My first batch I freeze-distilled it, came out around 30% ABV
I had 1 glass mixed down with a little lemonade, the throbbing headache and nasty stomach later that night were not that fun
The other batches I just drank at around 14% after running through with finings
They weren't as bad but they still gave me some of the worst hangovers I've ever had
Won't be trying it ever again...


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