# Style Of The Week 9/5/07 -sour Ales



## Stuster (9/5/07)

This week I thought we'd look at an unusual style of beers, Sour Ales. This is a whole category of different styles really, but I don't think there are so many sour beers being made that this needs to be split into five different weeks.  

Also, some of the same issues (mainly about fermentation) are the same across the styles. So who's made a Berliner Weisse  , a Flanders Red or Brown ale, a lambic or even a gueuze. :unsure: BJCP category 17.

*Links*

Brewboard group sour ale brew
Jamil show on Flanders Red
Raj Apte's pages on sour beers
Ratebeer article on lambics and gueze
Babblebelt - a good site for info on brewing Belgians and bug beers

So, what can you tell us about brewing these styles? Grains? Hops? Yeasts? Any tips for the sometimes lengthy fermentation that will be involved with these beers? Any commercial examples that are worth trying?

Tell us all you know so we can make better beer. :chug:


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## Trent (9/5/07)

Havent brewed any (YET), but I can say that if you are up for a good commercial example, then Rodenbach Grand Cru is one of the best. Extremely complex, with too many flavours and aromas to even begin naming. Tried this beer at the BJCP course, and fell in love with Sour Beers straight away. I dont think Orval is sour, but well worth the try. I believe that it takes a year or so to brew out properly, but I guess they are worth the wait.
Just lost me job today (finally), so tomorrow I begin the hunt for plastic bottles from the local spring water company, so I can start doing em. Looking forward to tips from those experienced in brewing this type of beer.
All the best, and top work Stuster for making sour beers the style of the week!
Trent


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## DarkFaerytale (9/5/07)

trent, are you talking about those large 20 odd ltr plastic spring water bottles? are they suitable for brewing in as a one off?

good luck on the job hunt too btw

-Phill


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## kook (9/5/07)

I've got one fermenting at the moment, and the only real advice I have to offer is to use a neutral strain in primary. I pitched roselare directly, and it took a very long time to initially ferment out, with some stalling along the way. Next time I will ferment out with 1056 and add roselare in secondary.

Oh, and be patient 

Recipe is here.


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## brendanos (9/5/07)

This thread is awesome.


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## Stuster (9/5/07)

kook, did you end up going with a plastic cube? I've got some to hand and was thinking of using them for this when I (finally) get round to doing a sour beer.


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## kook (9/5/07)

I'm just using a plain old plastic fermenter, however I will rack to two polycarbonate spring water bottles when I move house in the next few weeks.


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## neonmeate (9/5/07)

my binliner weisse is getting good now after two months in the bottle, very sour. neutral yeasts - bah. leave them for the germans. i used all brett anomalus for the main part of the ferment and yoghurt for the lactic ferment. was interesting - got a bit acetic (brett exposed to o2 does that) but that has faded. very fruity, sour and zingy - just a bit of homeless man pong when you open the bottle which is a worry. i hope that goes away with age.

got a hoppy belgian blonde with orval dregs in secondary now , basically a 50 IBU pilsener wort fermented with duvel yeast and the orval dregs. looking promising. dunno how long the brett will take.

got some sour porter and imperial stout too. what they lack in drinkability they sure make up for in sensory assault.. as stuster will attest...

gotter make a flemish red one of these days.

don't even ask about my lambic from 2004.


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## kook (9/5/07)

neonmeate said:


> don't even ask about my lambic from 2004.



You should have blended the maggots! h34r:


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## Stuster (9/5/07)

I hoped to see you in this thread.



neonmeate said:


> got some sour porter and imperial stout too. what they lack in drinkability they sure make up for in sensory assault.. as stuster will attest...



Very true. I was unable to finish off the porter. The aroma is actually quite attractive but remarkably intense. However, undeterred, I inoculated 10L of porter with the dregs. :blink:  



neonmeate said:


> just a bit of homeless man pong when you open the bottle which is a worry. i hope that goes away with age.



Sounds delightful.


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## warrenlw63 (9/5/07)

neonmeate said:


> got a hoppy belgian blonde with orval dregs in secondary now , basically a 50 IBU pilsener wort fermented with duvel yeast and the orval dregs. looking promising. dunno how long the brett will take.



NM

I added the two bottles of Orval dregs to my Saison around November last year. It was bottled around 8-10 weeks ago. To tell you the truth the brett doesn't really predominate. Subtle (started a bit leathery but has subsided a bit) but not in your face. It's most certainly still eating away at the sugars because the beer has become quite carbed. Has a pillowy head that takes ages to even think about settling down.

I'm going to set a few champagne bottles of it aside and see what a year or so does for it. Drinking well now.

BTW Stuster great thread!! Might get me off my arse and doing something with that smack pack of Roselare I've got sitting with the vegies in the fridge.  

Warren -

Edit: speeeeling


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## tipsy_mcstagger (9/5/07)

Love The Leifmans Goudenband so planning on doing a Flanders Brown soon;

70% Pilsner
10% Caramunich
10% Caravienna
10% Maize

Will probably use popped corn for the maize, primary ferment with Munich Lager, mainly because that is the yeast cake I will have available, the rack to secondary on top of 5335 Lactobacillus delbrueckii in a 20L carboy and leave for a couple of years.

Then give blending a go, doing the same recipe, swapping 5L old for new drink the blended beer and leave the carboy for another year.

Tipsy


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## neonmeate (9/5/07)

that's interesting warren, i think it can be a bit of a lottery with the brett - other beers i've done with orval dregs have been really OTT but this one hasnt developed any funkiness yet (well it hadnt two weeks ago) despite the pellicle. 
wonder what's happening inside my longneck of coopers sparkling.

tipsy that looks really good. do you really need to leave it for 2 years!!?


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## goatherder (9/5/07)

Nice timing Stuster. I just picked up a pack of Wyeast Roeselare this afternoon. I have grand visions of a flanders red.

I'm planning to do as kook advised and ferment out with a neutral ale yeast before racking and inoculating with the bug blend. I'll leave it in plastic for 6 months, probably just in the shed over winter. I hope the bugs aren't too temperature sensitive.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get that deep red colour that Rodenbach has? I'm thinking some melanoidin and caraaroma, but I'm unsure of the percentages. Any clues?


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## neonmeate (9/5/07)

goatherder said:


> Any clues?



Rajotte says to simmer the whole thing overnight to get the red colour. but most of that book is totally incomprehensible and outdated. would imagine there are easier and more climatechange neutral ways to do it.


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## bconnery (9/5/07)

I am really fond of lambics, flanders etc. so I made a sour red ale, but was a little scared of using brett cultures or anything like that until I had a better understanding of ensuring they didn't get into everything so I used a variety of sour orange instead. 

I don't know exactly what it was because it just grew amongst the other citrus my folks have but it was very strong and tart. 

The recipe was kind of based on readings from the classic beer series Belgian ales book. 

3kg LME. 30g Chocolate Malt. 70g Crystal. 100g Carapils. 100g Dark Brown Sugar. 50g Styrian Goldings. Zest of 5 sour oranges, juice of 7. T58 yeast

Steeped chocolate, crystal and carapils. Slightly caramelized sugar with zest of 2 oranges and juice of 1 and added to runnings off steeped grain. Boiled all wort for 6 hours. 30g Goldings @45. juice & rind for 15. 20g Goldings @0

Fermented at around 22-24C. 



Early on it was a really sharp tart upfront taste with the slighly caramelized sweetness coming through after that. As time has gone on the reverse is true, the tartness has faded. 

I preferred the beer young, others like it more now. 

I would do this beer every year, with slight variations, especially with a belgian liquid of some sort, if my folks hadn't pruned the tree back. As it is I'll have to wait... 



A few tasted it at the QLD Xmas case swap. Most liked it, many shook their heads at the prospect of a 6 hour boil, but it's not that hard when using only extract as the volumes are smaller...


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## kook (9/5/07)

goatherder said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get that deep red colour that Rodenbach has? I'm thinking some melanoidin and caraaroma, but I'm unsure of the percentages. Any clues?



Our red looked incredible in the kettle, really ruby in colour. After the boil it seemed to have lost some of that, and now that it is fermented out its even less red. Still has quite a ruby look about it, but is more an orange-brown than red. I'm still searching for the solution to getting that real red look.


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## tipsy_mcstagger (9/5/07)

neonmeate said:


> tipsy that looks really good. do you really need to leave it for 2 years!!?



Just finished reading Wild brews and He recommends at least 18months, Nothing wasted in doing a blend at 12months, probably wouldnt be able to last the 2 years anyway.

I found it interesting that the flanders red is aged in wood compared to the brown that is aged in Stainless.


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## randyrob (9/5/07)

Hmm... impeckable timing, i was just down at supercheap purchasing a jerry can to do my first lambic in
since i didnt want to tie up one of my existing fermenters thought i'd jump on ahb and start reading up on em and it happens to be the Style of the week :blink: i'll be watching this thread eagerly after trying my first lambic on the weekend just gone @ kooks brewday never though i would actually like them but now i'm sold on the idea :beerbang:


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## neonmeate (9/5/07)

tipsy_mcstagger said:


> I found it interesting that the flanders red is aged in wood compared to the brown that is aged in Stainless.



i think that's only since liefmans got taken over by riva and they moved production out of the old brewery in oudenaarde. i could google up the facts to be sure but i'm too lazy so i will just say "i think" that's right.


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## Stuster (9/5/07)

randyrob said:


> Hmm... impeckable timing, i was just down at supercheap purchasing a jerry can to do my first lambic in
> since i didnt want to tie up one of my existing fermenters thought i'd jump on ahb and start reading up on em and it happens to be the Style of the week :blink:



Once more my Super Special Mind Reading Powers (tm) amaze the world.


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## goatherder (9/5/07)

So the red mystery isn't solved for the hber- the couple of recipes in BYO have Special B in them, maybe that's a clue for Caraaroma.

How about the question of oak chips in the secondary for a flanders red?

Jeff Sparrow seems to think so in BYO, any takers?


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## bconnery (9/5/07)

In the belgian classic beer styles book it mentioned the long boil as a method for this style. This way a deeper hue is achieved without a corresponding amount of darker malts. I don't have the book with me

Mine certainly had a satisfying red hue. So perhaps a little melanoidin and a longer boil, but short of the 6hrs I did?

http://www.belgianstyle.com/mmguide/style/sour.html mentions the long boil too...


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## tipsy_mcstagger (9/5/07)

what about weyermanns Carared for red colour? I havent used it but just bought some hoping for that exact result.


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## kook (9/5/07)

tipsy_mcstagger said:


> what about weyermanns Carared for red colour? I havent used it but just bought some hoping for that exact result.



Somewhere I found a comparison of equal amounts carared, caraaroma, etc etc after steeping. Caraaroma turned out to be the "reddest" of the lot.


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## Stuster (9/5/07)

Goatherder, there was a group brew discussion on one of the US sites recently to get a red lager. The consensus IIRC was to use just a touch of Roast Barley. Other suggestions were for Special B (Caraaroma should do it) and melanoidin. I've never used it but Carared supposedly doesn't really give you a red colour. :huh: 

Oh, and Jamil's recipe has nearly 24% Munich, some Caramunich and some Special B if that helps.


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## warrenlw63 (9/5/07)

What about Carafa III added at the sparge?

Warren -


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## Trent (9/5/07)

Warren
I have draunbk one of Goughs beers that had carafa III added at sparge (IIRC) and it had a nice red tinge to it. Maybe try that, Goatherder?

Dark Faerytale
Yep, the 20L spring water containers is what I am on the prowl for, something that wont tie up existing fermenters, and I can put away and forget about for a year or 2. that way I can try and keep up my 46L a week that has occupied my last few weeks! Now that I am unemployed, I will have the time, but probably not the money. Dont think it'll stop me trying, but.
All the best
Trent
PS Good to see so much input on such left of field beers. Keep it up. And Stuster, will the "super special mind reading powers (tm)" come up with a style I have always intended on brewing, and never gotten round to it, next week? Quite impressed by your strike rate so far 
EDIT - I was gonna fix the spelling in my first sentence, but it accurately sums up how I am talking afdter only a few beers, and right now seems very funny.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (9/5/07)

I have one stubby left from a brett experiment 18 months ago.
I added the 2 Orval dregs to an underattenuated trippel at bottling and left it alone, first taste was at 8 months and the most recent at Kooks the other day. It was rather good, and an easy way to achieve a wild beer.
I have done a similar thing to a Solara type ale recently. Half a keg of twangy Koelsch with a top up of fresh APA wort at half gravity, then the Orval trick. 
Time will tell.


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## newguy (10/5/07)

I tried making a Flanders Brown this past fall, which was a first for me. I didn't want to sour an entire batch so I did things a little differently.

I had maybe 5 litres of a previous Dubbel left over. This was an odd batch. I do 10 gallon batches and one of my carboys finished at 1.018, and the other stalled at 1.030. Nothing I did could get it to attenuate. The stalled keg was way too sweet to drink, so I poured what remained of it into a pot and dunked my drip tray into it. My drip tray hadn't been washed for quite some time and was covered in thick viscous goopy pseudo-beer. This mystery matter was a good breeding ground for bacteria. It smelled like some of the sour beers I've tried over the years, so I thought 'what the hell.'

Over the next couple of weeks, this mixture in the covered pot started to develop a nice funky sour aroma but the taste wasn't really sour. The gravity fell to 1.005, and it still wasn't too sour. So I added two cups of honey. THAT did the trick! It got VERY sour after that.

I pasteurized it (heated to 80C & held 20 minutes), then blended it with a Belgian Dark Strong that I had freshly brewed. I've never been to Belgium, but a member of my club has and he said it tasted exactly like the Flanders Browns that he had in Belgium.


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## brendanos (10/5/07)

So that's why that tripel tasted odd!!


Other than a Flanders red, a brown, and a lambics or two, I'm considering what else I can think up in terms of wild beers, as the cooler months roll in.

I'm thinking of a a hoppy belgian golden ale, something along the lines of...

70% Pilsener
7% Vienna
4% Raw Wheat
4% Light Munich
15% Dextrose

OG 1.060
~60IBU

Bittered with Sauvin and Simcoe
Flavoured with Sauvin, Simcoe and Styrian Goldings
Finished with Styrian Goldings and Saaz B

Primary with 1214 (Belgian Ale)
Secondary with lambic blend or any of the single strains.


Hopefully a beer that will be good both fresh and old.


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## Kai (10/5/07)

kook said:


> I've got one fermenting at the moment, and the only real advice I have to offer is to use a neutral strain in primary. I pitched roselare directly, and it took a very long time to initially ferment out, with some stalling along the way. Next time I will ferment out with 1056 and add roselare in secondary.
> 
> Oh, and be patient
> 
> Recipe is here.



I dimly remember tasting this last weekend and even recall some sourness. I thought the wyeast blends generally included an ale strain for primary fermentation, but my initial impulse for a beer like this would definitely be to use a separate strain for fermentation. 1056, or any ale strain of euro origin (belg incl) would be my preference. 

I've never brewed any sour beers before, at least not intentionally. However, if I was going to start exploring the field then I would start off very simple Complex multi-strain ferments can wait, to begin with all a sour beer needs to be is a beer that relies on acidity to balance the malt sweetness rather than bitterness. All that as to be is a beer balanced with acid rather than with bitterness. I'd use that as a foundation for working my way up to more complicated things.


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## Trent (10/5/07)

Did anybody else pick up on Newguys comment?
Mark, that has to be one of the most daring and experimental ways to sour a beer I have heard of! I love it. And the fact that you added some honey to make it sour enough for you is just classic. Full points to you, mate, cant get any crazier than that! Makes me look like a bit of a wuss by wanting to use bret or other cultures :lol:
All the best
Trent


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## warrenlw63 (10/5/07)

Trent said:


> Did anybody else pick up on Newguys comment?
> Mark, that has to be one of the most daring and experimental ways to sour a beer I have heard of! I love it. And the fact that you added some honey to make it sour enough for you is just classic. Full points to you, mate, cant get any crazier than that! Makes me look like a bit of a wuss by wanting to use bret or other cultures :lol:
> All the best
> Trent



:lol: :lol: I was waiting for somebody to bite there Trent. 

I've looked at the snotty dregs in my drip tray. I doubt I'd do similar things. I've seen earwigs crawling in there on at least one occasion. 

Newguy is crazy. :wacko: 

Warren -


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## newguy (10/5/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> I've looked at the snotty dregs in my drip tray. I doubt I'd do similar things. I've seen earwigs crawling in there on at least one occasion.
> 
> Newguy is crazy.



:lol:

I'll admit it, I am crazy. :lol: 

I had fruit flies in my drip tray last summer, but they were long gone by the time I got around to souring that beer. My take on the whole thing is that since the end result was pasteurized, it's okay. Probably okay........Alright, I hope it's okay. 

I got pretty much the same reaction from my club mates when they heard the story of how I soured that beer. One or two said it was 'cool', and the rest thought I was nuts. Good thing I gave them the details of my procedure after they had a taste.  Sort of like how my Mom used to tell visitors that what they just ate for supper was deer, not beef. She learned early in Dad's hunting 'career' never to tell anyone before they ate it. :lol:


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## Thirsty Boy (10/5/07)

I'm with bconnery,

Been looking for alternate ways to "sour" a beer that dont involve weird bugs or the dunking of driptrays (I vote cool on that one)

I have experimented a few times with Pomegranate molasses and the results have been promising. Nothing I would call good just yet, but the flavours definately work in beer.

I have only tried blending it with lighter coloured beers so far and the molasses flavour starts to interfere before the sourness gets high enough, but I'm going to try it out with the old ale and dubbel I have in the pipeline. The molasss flavours should work in with them a lot better.

I also have a block of tamarind sitting in my cupboard and that gear HAS to have possibilites.

Also, has anyone tried making a sour beer using just a sourmash at the beggining of the process rather than a long sour fermentation at the end??

Thirsty


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## Stuster (10/5/07)

ThirstyBoy

have a look at this thread started by the mighty Weizen brewer Les (who will hopefully poke his mighty nose into this thread at some point  ).


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## KoNG (10/5/07)

newguy said:


> My drip tray hadn't been washed for quite some time and was covered in thick viscous goopy pseudo-beer. This mystery matter was a good breeding ground for bacteria. It smelled like some of the sour beers I've tried over the years, so I thought 'what the hell.'



:blink: shoulda whipped your jocks off and dunked them too.... 

I've got a brew at the moment which was fermented on the cake of dried windsor yeast. To say the least, this beer has some weird flavours and aroma going on, wheat yeast like, phenolic and peppery which i wasnt expecting in my english bitter. (Funnily enough i was chatting to T.D. and he has just brewed a beer which he chucked onto the cake of a previous 'windsor' fermented beer and he has acheived the exact same results, with his beer close to tipping down the drain.. )

So i might venture into a world of Orval dregs and see what comes of it.....


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## warrenlw63 (10/5/07)

KoNG said:


> :blink: shoulda whipped your jocks off and dunked them too....



Kong... the Chocolate Porter thread is next week I believe. h34r: 

Warren -


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## KoNG (10/5/07)

sour browns this week..........


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## newguy (10/5/07)

KoNG said:


> :blink: shoulda whipped your jocks off and dunked them too....



But what would I name the beer if I had?

....Puckered Starfish Sour?....Kchisk Sour Strong?....Pouch Pucker Brown?  

BTW, kchisk is Cree (Native tribe around here) for 'shitty arsehole'.


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## neonmeate (10/5/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I also have a block of tamarind sitting in my cupboard and that gear HAS to have possibilites.
> 
> Also, has anyone tried making a sour beer using just a sourmash at the beggining of the process rather than a long sour fermentation at the end??




tamarind - now we're talking. red and sour. i like it. i've been thinking of that ever since i was in thailand last year and drank tamarind infused tea (with milk). that was cool.

yes i did a sourmash with my "undrinkable" porter - although completely by accident! owing to all sorts of complications i left the unboiled mash runoff outside on the back deck for a week before i got to boil it. turned out very sour but after a long boil no worries. i did add brett to it and apparently brett responds well to a pre-existing level of lactic acid , can't remember the exact chemical formulae. but anyway a sourmash does get sourness without the two year wait. and without contaminating your fermenter at all. you don't get the same aroma or flavour development over time though. that's why i added brett anyway.


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## warrenlw63 (10/5/07)

newguy said:


> But what would I name the beer if I had?
> 
> ....Puckered Starfish Sour?....Kchisk Sour Strong?....Pouch Pucker Brown?
> 
> BTW, kchisk is Cree (Native tribe around here) for 'shitty arsehole'.



Okay, okay... It's about time he appeared again... Howdy Howdy Ho!!

The perfect label. :lol: 

Warren -


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## KoNG (10/5/07)

neonmeate said:


> tamarind - now we're talking. red and sour. i like it. i've been thinking of that ever since i was in thailand last year and drank tamarind infused tea (with milk). that was cool.



hmmm, i have a tub of concentrated tamarind pulp in the fridge... B) 
is there any reference to such an ingredient being used before....?? very interesting.


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## Weizguy (10/5/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm with bconnery,
> 
> Been looking for alternate ways to "sour" a beer that dont involve weird bugs or the dunking of driptrays (I vote cool on that one)
> 
> ...


You should be able to find my thread on sour mash. I did a sour mash using a double boiler and about 1.5 kg of ale malt at 50ish Celsius for about 5 days, IIRC. I split the soured grain into 3 ziplock bags and froze them until I was ready to brew with them. Then I thawed them out and mixed it into the mash.

It was plenty sour, but if you want sourness without any work, blend in some food-grade 80% lactic acid and leave it to mellow for a while. Easy done. That technique will allow you to dial in the exact sourness that you want, with incremental additions of a small amount.

You might want to add acidulated malt at up to 10% to help with sourness and/or leave the mash overnight for a long acid rest, like I did with my first sour mash Berliner weisse.

FWIW, I also made a Pommie Summer ale with added sour mash (about 250g only), as well as 2 Berliners.

If I can think of anything else, or think that I can answer anyone's questions, I'll post further.

BTW, Stuster, you used the word "mighty" twice in the same sentence, and I'm proud of my mighty (noble) beak. It's a great asset to a recognised beer judge, you know.

Just to add a little more to this post, my "Grand Champion beer" (that's what it sez on the certificate) at the NSW state comp was my third Berliner ever, and the sourness came from the acid rest, lacto inocculation and a lactic acid addition at bottling (to provide enough balance/sourness to suit my taste). (*edit -link and text added)

Beerz
Seth  

Has anyone here, apart from Doc, made a Gse? (pronounced gerser, and sounds similar to the Belgian Gueze, according to M. Jackson).


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## Stuster (10/5/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> BTW, Stuster, you used the word "mighty" twice in the same sentence, and I'm proud of my mighty (noble) beak. It's a great asset to a recognised beer judge, you know.


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## neonmeate (11/5/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Has anyone here, apart from Doc, made a Gse? (pronounced gerser, and sounds similar to the Belgian Gueze, according to M. Jackson).



sort of - not a sour one, just a wheat beer with salt and coriander. i liked it although i reckon would have been much better with sourness.

had a bayrischer bahnhof gose once and still have the crazy bottle - looks like a medieval potion. the beer wasn't very sour, more like a witbier than anything, but i liked it. the salt is a cool idea.

oh and there's no umlaut in "gose", it's pronounced "goh-ze" (closed o)

more history of it here
http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/leippubs.htm


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## Weizguy (12/5/07)

neon,

I brewed a sour wheat (unintentional) by using the Johann Baptiste recipe from the Weyermann site.

The beer turned out quite sour with the acidulated malt included, but seemed to take well to a pinch of salt to help balance the acidity.
I think it was too sour as I have very soft water where I live and the acidity shines (or pierces) through.

Thanks for the pronunciation tip, and the umlaut tip. Must go back and find that Jackson article, and post back to this thread (as well as link from the Gose thread).

Seth


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## neonmeate (12/5/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Thanks for the pronunciation tip, and the umlaut tip.



sorry i'm a bit pedantic with german and french and stuff, being a singer i have to be precise with these things.

interesting about the soft water. do you think throwing in some gypsum and CaCl2 and so forth would help as well as the NaCl?

did you find the acidulated malt had a different flavour to the sourmash or was it more or less the same?


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## SpillsMostOfIt (12/5/07)

For a while after finding this link (and until SWMBO ordered a stop), our house was full of the sounds of French and Flemish:

http://www.belgianstyle.com/mmguide/pronounce/speak.html

I still can't get my tongue around some of these words...


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## neonmeate (12/5/07)

Grimbergen is a good one, they don't call it Phlegmish for nothin


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## SpillsMostOfIt (12/5/07)

I think I prefer the Phlegmish sound over the Phrench.

Please note that I intended no double entendre... :unsure:


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## Weizguy (12/5/07)

neonmeate said:


> sorry i'm a bit pedantic with german and french and stuff, being a singer i have to be precise with these things.
> 
> interesting about the soft water. do you think throwing in some gypsum and CaCl2 and so forth would help as well as the NaCl?
> 
> did you find the acidulated malt had a different flavour to the sourmash or was it more or less the same?


I didn't think about the flavour difference before. I'll do a side-by-side this evening before I commit to an answer on that one.

The Berliner seemed to taste less "soft" if I can use that term, as I used 2 tsp of gypsum in the 25 litre batch.
But the Weissbier was bitey and unbalanced with the acidity of the added acid malt on top of the soft water. I've read that a small amount of acidity "rounds" the flavour of a lager or ale, but this one was sour, not rounded.
Based on those 2 different beers, it may be hard to make an absolute decision, but I think the gypsum made a difference to the balance.

Seth


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (29/6/07)

An interesting Power Point presentation from Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River here:

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/forum.h...752780&pg=1

C&B
TDA


----------



## bindi (29/6/07)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> An interesting Power Point presentation from Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River here:
> 
> http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/forum.h...752780&pg=1
> 
> ...




Page 19   .


----------



## kook (29/6/07)

Cheers for posting that. I really should read the babblebelt more often


----------



## bconnery (1/8/07)

Last year I brewed a flanders red type beer using tips from the Classic Beer series. It was an extract beer with a small amount of specialty grains and a long boil, 6 hours, to get the colour profile. 
I also used a variety of sour orange to achieve the sourness, rather than a yeast culture. It was one of the best beers I have made. 
Now I'm trying to formulate an AG version. I don't want a 6 hour boil, and I've read recently that this is no longer common for these types of beers anyway...
Here's what I've come up with based on my research so far so I thought I'd see if makers of these style of beers had any feedback...
I'm going to go for a belgian liquid yeast but no culture again. These oranges will provide all the sourness I need. (Ross described them as the habaneros of the sour orange world...)
The pale malt listed is a pilsner malt. 

Batch Size: 20.00 L 
Boil Size: 35.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 15.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
---
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.20 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.0 SRM) Grain 49.4 % 
1.00 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 22.5 % 
0.40 kg Maize, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.0 % 
0.30 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) Grain 6.7 % 
0.30 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 6.7 % 
0.25 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 5.6 % 
15.00 gm Smaragd [8.00%] (60 min) Hops 16.6 IBU 
6.00 items Sour Orange Rind (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
8.00 items Sour Orange Juice (Boil 5.0 min) Misc


----------



## Screwtop (1/8/07)

bconnery said:


> Last year I brewed a flanders red type beer using tips from the Classic Beer series. It was an extract beer with a small amount of specialty grains and a long boil, 6 hours, to get the colour profile.
> I also used a variety of sour orange to achieve the sourness, rather than a yeast culture. It was one of the best beers I have made.
> Now I'm trying to formulate an AG version. I don't want a 6 hour boil, and I've read recently that this is no longer common for these types of beers anyway...
> Here's what I've come up with based on my research so far so I thought I'd see if makers of these style of beers had any feedback...
> ...




Would Acidulated Malt work Ben, as in Berlin Sour?

Screwy


----------



## kook (1/8/07)

I've got another ~ 45L of flanders red going again now. I used a slightly more simple grain bill this time, and a long boil to help get the right colour. Fermented with US05 in primary, then racked to secondary and pitched roselare. 

Also bottled an amber ale with brett (2 bottles of Orval)  Waiting for it to carb up now.


----------



## bconnery (1/8/07)

Screwtop said:


> Would Acidulated Malt work Ben, as in Berlin Sour?
> 
> Screwy



Was mainly just looking for feedback on the grain bill part, with reference to the style.

Sourness is all taken care of!

I'd seen a few recipes in this thread and thought I'd see if others who've made AG versions had any thoughts...


Kook, I've been reading about the whole orval as a source of brett thing recently. Did you put some in secondary, if so for how long, or did you just do it at bottling time?


----------



## kook (1/8/07)

bconnery said:


> Kook, I've been reading about the whole orval as a source of brett thing recently. Did you put some in secondary, if so for how long, or did you just do it at bottling time?



I just added two bottles (including dregs) worth at bottling time. I also slightly underprimed as I'm sure the brett will eat more sugars.


----------



## sinkas (1/8/07)

Anyone used dregs from Liefmans goudenband to sour up some beer?


----------



## tipsy_mcstagger (8/9/07)

Finally got around to brewing what will hope to be a goudenband replica next year, just pitched the brew on top of th lactobascillus.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 17.50 L 
Boil Size: 44.82 L
Estimated OG: 1.070 SG
Estimated Color: 36.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.0 %
Boil Time: 151 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
0.45 kg popped corn (2.0 EBC) Adjunct 8.3 % 
4.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 73.4 % 
0.50 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 9.2 % 
0.30 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 5.5 % 
0.20 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3.7 % 
35.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 22.5 IBU 
1 Pkgs Belgian Ale (Wyeast Labs #1214) [Starter 1Yeast-Ale 
1 Pkgs Lactobacillus Delbrueckii (Wyeast Labs #43Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.45 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 11.00 L of water at 64.1 C 53.0 C 20 min 
Step Add 4.50 L of water at 96.2 C 63.0 C 190 min 
Step Add 8.00 L of water at 73.6 C 66.0 C 30 min 
Mash out Add 7.50 L of water at 99.4 C 73.0 C 10 min 


Notes:
------
02/09 - Pitched yeast @ 19deg
08/09 - Sg 1.016 Tastes slight banana esters pitched onto lactobacillus


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (3/1/09)

What amount of Roselare yeast would I need to pitch to a 20 litre brew that has completed primary fermentation?

C&B
TDA


----------



## kook (3/1/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> What amount of Roselare yeast would I need to pitch to a 20 litre brew that has completed primary fermentation?
> 
> C&B
> TDA



1 pack.

It's a blend, if you separate and then try to propagate up, you'll disrupt the balance of bugs.


----------



## pmolou (5/1/09)

just made a sour ale with the lambic blend And cantillon dregs and smells disgusting sofar so quite promising haha

its only been a week since i pitched but i've left quite a bit of headspace say 10cm as i thought it could have a large krausen 

anyway will this have any effect on the beer as ive heard (of burgandybabblebelt) that less O2 means a more sour beer, true???
anyway i'm going to put a lid on it so no more o2 gets in but should i maybe top it up with water or what?
or just leave it cos it smells very very funky already and its only been a week

1.5kg coopers wheat extract
50g special b
50g munich
12 litres

any advice cheers


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (6/1/09)

kook said:


> 1 pack.
> 
> It's a blend, if you separate and then try to propagate up, you'll disrupt the balance of bugs.



Thanks kook, much appreciated :beer: !

C&B
TDA


----------



## Quintrex (6/1/09)

pmolou said:


> just made a sour ale with the lambic blend And cantillon dregs and smells disgusting sofar so quite promising haha
> 
> its only been a week since i pitched but i've left quite a bit of headspace say 10cm as i thought it could have a large krausen
> 
> anyway will this have any effect on the beer as ive heard (of burgandybabblebelt) that less O2 means a more sour beer, true???



Brettanomyces gives more character with less oxygen, and the converse is true as well. Oxygen does inhibit growth of a lot of the souring bugs like pedio however acetobacter will thrive in an oxygen rich environment. more O2 over time will mean a more oxidized acidic brew, so probably best to limit oxygen to limit acetic formation, the bugs should form a pellicle after a bit which will help give them the amount needed but will protect your brew from being exposed to too much oxygen.

Check out the following powerpoint made by Vinnie Cilurzo, it's really good.
http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_re...resentation.ppt

Q


----------



## pmolou (6/1/09)

Quintrex said:


> Brettanomyces gives more character with less oxygen, and the converse is true as well. Oxygen does inhibit growth of a lot of the souring bugs like pedio however acetobacter will thrive in an oxygen rich environment. more O2 over time will mean a more oxidized acidic brew, so probably best to limit oxygen to limit acetic formation, the bugs should form a pellicle after a bit which will help give them the amount needed but will protect your brew from being exposed to too much oxygen.
> 
> Check out the following powerpoint made by Vinnie Cilurzo, it's really good.
> http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_re...resentation.ppt
> ...



wow great info


----------



## kabooby (6/1/09)

Nice info Q. I was actually listening to the presentation Vinnie did on sour beers on the BN not long ago. Trying to build up my knowledge for some sour beers. My main problem now is long term storage during the fermentation, especially when we have 42C days like today <_< 

Kabooby


----------



## goatherder (6/1/09)

kabooby said:


> Nice info Q. I was actually listening to the presentation Vinnie did on sour beers on the BN not long ago. Trying to build up my knowledge for some sour beers. My main problem now is long term storage during the fermentation, especially when we have 42C days like today <_<
> 
> Kabooby




Mine too - my FRA is in the garage where the temp is now reading 37C.

My last FRA suffered similar conditions and turned out OK. Maybe constant temps would have made it better, who knows.


----------



## Quintrex (6/1/09)

goatherder said:


> Mine too - my FRA is in the garage where the temp is now reading 37C.
> 
> My last FRA suffered similar conditions and turned out OK. Maybe constant temps would have made it better, who knows.



Heh, I'm worried about my funky beers too, a little heat is ok up to about ~30ish (from what I have read), but it can make them go "sick" for a period, I'm hoping to get a trapdoor put into my double brick house so that they can age with a relatively constant temp.

I'd love to have a aussie wide funky/sour beer swap one day! Seems like more and more AHB members are venturing on the wild side of brewing.

Cheers
Q


----------



## pmolou (6/1/09)

mines getting quite hot aswell though got no temp measurer for it so no idea how hot it is but i just plan on brewing one during winter then combining them or something similar to balance out the flavours..
expecting my summer one to be quite acidic considering it has a fair bit of headspace and hot temperatures <_<


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (13/1/09)

Well I really have no idea why but on Saturday I transferred 10 litres of a smoked porter (gravity at 1017) from primary
and pitched some Roselare yeast into it :blink: !

I have it in plastic and from what I read from peoples experience's it should be okay regarding excessive oxygen. I will leave it at ambient temperatures which will mean some severe fluctuations but this doesn't worry me as it is just an experiment.

Is there anything else I need to consider here?

C&B
TDA


----------



## Quintrex (13/1/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Well I really have no idea why but on Saturday I transferred 10 litres of a smoked porter (gravity at 1017) from primary
> and pitched some Roselare yeast into it :blink: !
> 
> I have it in plastic and from what I read from peoples experience's it should be okay regarding excessive oxygen. I will leave it at ambient temperatures which will mean some severe fluctuations but this doesn't worry me as it is just an experiment.
> ...



The first time you use a smack pack, the sourness takes quite a while to develop, however the sourness will increase with each repitch of the slurry, something to keep in mind. From memory I think rodenbach washes the slurry with pH2 acid solution to keep the bacteria in check.

Q


----------



## reviled (13/1/09)

Quintrex said:


> The first time you use a smack pack, the sourness takes quite a while to develop, however the sourness will increase with each repitch of the slurry, something to keep in mind. From memory I think rodenbach washes the slurry with pH2 acid solution to keep the bacteria in check.
> 
> Q



What do Rodenbach bottle their Grand Cru with? I have a bottle sitting in the fridge and am looking at turning an infected beer lambic...


----------



## pmolou (21/1/09)

how do people store there sour ales as mines in a plastic container with no air lock just a lid i screw on the undo to let gas out of every few weeks but lately i noticed it had so much gas it almost exploded and is deforemed...
so back to the question how do people usually store there sour ales?


----------



## goatherder (21/1/09)

pmolou said:


> how do people store there sour ales as mines in a plastic container with no air lock just a lid i screw on the undo to let gas out of every few weeks but lately i noticed it had so much gas it almost exploded and is deforemed...
> so back to the question how do people usually store there sour ales?



Same here. The cubes can take a bit of pressure. I'm dreading the day the tap blows out though. After a few months the C02 production slows considerably, it becomes less of a problem.


----------



## neonmeate (22/1/09)

reviled said:


> What do Rodenbach bottle their Grand Cru with? I have a bottle sitting in the fridge and am looking at turning an infected beer lambic...



rodenbach gc is pasteurised and cleaned up, you won't get anything out of it. however wyeast roeselare blend is supposed to be pretty close. dregs from orval, cantillon, hanssens etc will give you bugs though. but not the sweetened up lambics like timmermanns, bellevue etc!

three weeks ago i chucked some dregs from two bottles of lindemans cuvee rene into a strong saison that had already got down to 1001 - got a nice pellicle forming now.

dunno if your infected beer will ever turn out with a good lambic balance - the bacteria that first infected it will probably still be dominant - you might need to wait a very long time to find out.


----------



## Jye (22/1/09)

Picked myself up a bottle of lindemans and cantillon gueuze today and Im thinking I should make the most of them and use the dregs in something. How does this sound;

35% malted wheat
65% pils malt
10 IBUs of clean bittering

Primary ferment with a clean yeast (1056 or a lager strain), then split into 2 keg and secondary with the dregs of each until ready? I currently have a saison on tap that was conditioned with the dregs from orval and am really surprised at how much character the brett dregs produced. Im hoping for similar but different (yummier) results from the lindemans and cantillon.


----------



## neonmeate (23/1/09)

Jye said:


> Picked myself up a bottle of lindemans and cantillon gueuze today and Im thinking I should make the most of them and use the dregs in something. How does this sound;
> 
> 35% malted wheat
> 65% pils malt
> ...


yeah my cuvee rene dregs have already given my saison a big lambicy barnyard smell after three weeks! recommended!


----------



## kabooby (23/1/09)

I have not made a sour beer yet but I have been doing heaps of research for my next brew. The only thing I would change is to try and use the lowest alpha hops you have. You want to still get the preservative effect from the hops but not the IBU, so the more hops for 10IBU the better.

Let us know how it goes

I just picked up 2 x pinlock kegs for the specific purpose of sour beers. Can't wait

Kabooby


----------



## pmolou (23/1/09)

Jye said:


> Picked myself up a bottle of lindemans and cantillon gueuze today and Im thinking I should make the most of them and use the dregs in something. How does this sound;
> 
> 35% malted wheat
> 65% pils malt
> ...



sounds good as is but just incase i'[ll say i did the cantillon brewery tour and they use 60%pils malt and 40% unmalted wheat


----------



## Jye (23/1/09)

neonmeate said:


> yeah my cuvee rene dregs have already given my saison a big lambicy barnyard smell after three weeks! recommended!



Fantastic :lol: 



kabooby said:


> I have not made a sour beer yet but I have been doing heaps of research for my next brew. The only thing I would change is to try and use the lowest alpha hops you have. You want to still get the preservative effect from the hops but not the IBU, so the more hops for 10IBU the better.



Ive been thinking about this and wasnt the 07 or 06 crop of Hall something like 2% AA? That would have been great to use. May have to poke around craftbrewer and see if there are any old crops hanging around in the back of the coldroom.



pmolou said:


> sounds good as is but just incase i'[ll say i did the cantillon brewery tour and they use 60%pils malt and 40% unmalted wheat



On the back of the bottle they have 35/65 but Im not worried about 5% either way. As for the wheat Ill stick to malted just to make things easy on myself, this little experiment is more about the yeast.


----------



## kabooby (25/1/09)

Jye said:


> Ive been thinking about this and wasnt the 07 or 06 crop of Hall something like 2% AA? That would have been great to use. May have to poke around craftbrewer and see if there are any old crops hanging around in the back of the coldroom.



Yeh they were, I have 140g of 2.1% Hallertauer in the freezer that I am going to use. 

On the Cantillon website they say


> Ingredients:
> raw wheat 35%
> malted barley 65%
> dried hops (three years old) : 5 g per liter of beer



Kabooby


----------



## pmolou (25/1/09)

there u go maybe my memories not so great haha


----------



## warrenlw63 (23/2/09)

Okay to re-open this most awesome thread I've got a question for the Flanders Red experts.  

Mine's more or less getting close to bottling and I'm contemplating racking it onto some medium toasted French Oak chips to get some hints of vanilla and tannin etc.

Has anybody tried this? If so are there any tips I should heed? :unsure: 

Thanks in advance.

Warren -


----------



## Quintrex (23/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Okay to re-open this most awesome thread I've got a question for the Flanders Red experts.
> 
> Mine's more or less getting close to bottling and I'm contemplating racking it onto some medium toasted French Oak chips to get some hints of vanilla and tannin etc.
> 
> ...



From what I've read you should consider dropping them in boiling water for a few minutes to help sterilise them, just in case.

I've also heard that you should consider not using brand new chips in beer as the flavour is too strong, so consider storing some port on them for a couple of weeks first and then use em.
Q


----------



## warrenlw63 (23/2/09)

Quintrex said:


> From what I've read you should consider dropping them in boiling water for a few minutes to help sterilise them, just in case.
> 
> I've also heard that you should consider not using brand new chips in beer as the flavour is too strong, so consider storing some port on them for a couple of weeks first and then use em.
> Q



Cheers Q !!  

I thought you'd be the "go-to" man... I've got a bottle of stinky Aldi port that will serve this purpose well. :lol: 

Thanks for the heads up mate!  

Warren -


----------



## goatherder (24/2/09)

Warren,

I put my first FRA (20litres) on 30g of med toast french oak chips for the entire secondary (13 months). The oak is identifiable but in the background, very subtle. I wouldn't want much more. The chips wasted away to almost nothing by the end. The oak flavour was most obvious early in the long fermentation.

If you are worried about the flavour being too strong, the strength is determined by the amount you put in and by the contact time. If you are nearly ready to bottle, try adding 1/g per litre then taste it every few days until you are happy with it, then bottle. You'll find a couple of weeks will probably suffice. I wouldn't rack onto the chips - just add them to your fermentation vessel. I also wouldn't put port on the chips - FRA is a delicate beer and the port might overwhelm it. A porter or stout might be more appropriate for this approach.

Hope this helps.

Scott


----------



## Jye (24/2/09)

kabooby said:


> Yeh they were, I have 140g of 2.1% Hallertauer in the freezer that I am going to use.
> 
> On the Cantillon website they say
> 
> ...



I found my hops, Strisselspalt '05 AA 2.0% nicely aged at Craftbrewer  

Link


----------



## kabooby (24/2/09)

Great find Jye. Let us know how it turns out

kabooby


----------



## Stuster (24/2/09)

Of course, those hops are aged in a freezer which isn't quite the same. Still, very low alpha so they might be the best thing. 

I'm trying to work out how to hop a lambic without waiting for three years. I'm thinking of cheating and using the oven to force age them. Anyone tried this?


----------



## Weizguy (24/2/09)

Stuster said:


> Of course, those hops are aged in a freezer which isn't quite the same. Still, very low alpha so they might be the best thing.
> 
> I'm trying to work out how to hop a lambic without waiting for three years. I'm thinking of cheating and using the oven to force age them. Anyone tried this?


Stu, I have about 500g of Cascade hop plugs, manually separated and aged 2 and a bit years at room temp.

How much do you need and I'll see if I can spare it?  

you may need to pm to get a response B)


----------



## beers (24/2/09)

goatherder said:


> If you are worried about the flavour being too strong, the strength is determined by the amount you put in and by the contact time.



True goatherder. It also depends on surface area of the chips. I've used a few different sizes of chips, mainly to Porters, in the past. I find smaller sized chips (I've used both Brewcraft American & French) can give quite a full on flavour in small amounts from 10-20g. I've got much better balanced results from the same amount of bigger sized chips... or even staves.

I opted for French Oak staves for my FRA. I broke one in half, steamed it for about 15mins, & chucked it along with the Roselare into secondary (HDPE) & left it for just over 2mths. It's my first attempt at a FRA & hasn't been bottled yet - it's spent another 3 months in a keg after transferring off the Oak. I'm planning on bottling in a few weeks but from sampling it when taking it off the Oak the oak wasn't too over the top.

Edit: There was an awesome Brewing Network Sunday Session show on oaking a few months back. Cant recall the guests name but it's well worth tracking down for some insight into the different methods of oaking a beer.


----------



## warrenlw63 (24/2/09)

goatherder said:


> Warren,
> 
> I put my first FRA (20litres) on 30g of med toast french oak chips for the entire secondary (13 months). The oak is identifiable but in the background, very subtle. I wouldn't want much more. The chips wasted away to almost nothing by the end. The oak flavour was most obvious early in the long fermentation.
> 
> ...






beers said:


> True goatherder. It also depends on surface area of the chips. I've used a few different sizes of chips, mainly to Porters, in the past. I find smaller sized chips (I've used both Brewcraft American & French) can give quite a full on flavour in small amounts from 10-20g. I've got much better balanced results from the same amount of bigger sized chips... or even staves.
> 
> I opted for French Oak staves for my FRA. I broke one in half, steamed it for about 15mins, & chucked it along with the Roselare into secondary (HDPE) & left it for just over 2mths. It's my first attempt at a FRA & hasn't been bottled yet - it's spent another 3 months in a keg after transferring off the Oak. I'm planning on bottling in a few weeks but from sampling it when taking it off the Oak the oak wasn't too over the top.
> 
> Edit: There was an awesome Brewing Network Sunday Session show on oaking a few months back. Cant recall the guests name but it's well worth tracking down for some insight into the different methods of oaking a beer.



Many thanks goat and beers ... This is invaluable advice.  

I've been told a couple of times that the staves are more effective. I might enquire about some this week.

Speaking of Lambics. Once I clear my carboys this is next on my agenda. I've got around 150-200g of 8 year old NZ Goldings cones that are nice and stinky. Will be perfect for the job.  

Beers think I might hunt down that BN podcast.

Warren -


----------



## beers (25/2/09)

Warren,

I believe it was this one - http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Sun...08-Shea-Comfort

Cheers


----------



## kabooby (25/2/09)

Stuster said:


> Of course, those hops are aged in a freezer which isn't quite the same. Still, very low alpha so they might be the best thing.
> 
> I'm trying to work out how to hop a lambic without waiting for three years. I'm thinking of cheating and using the oven to force age them. Anyone tried this?



I am happy to use old hops with a low alpha that have been stored in a fridge or freezer. That way you get the reduced alpha without the stinky cheesy hop character. I don't think it would come through in the final beer anyway but I am just not real keen on putting them into my beer.

There was a podcast on the BN with Mike Melm who has been making lambics for something like 30 years. He uses old hops that have been aged in the fridge for the same reason.

Kabooby


----------



## mikem108 (25/2/09)

> There was a podcast on the BN with Mike Melm who has been making lambics for something like 30 years. He uses old hops that have been aged in the fridge for the same reason




Beauty....sour beer here I come, I thought I had another year or so to wait for my hops to be ready


----------



## warrenlw63 (25/2/09)

beers said:


> Warren,
> 
> I believe it was this one - http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Sun...08-Shea-Comfort
> 
> Cheers



Thanks beers!  

I've actually got the Jamil Lambic podcast on ATM. I'll hunt this one down next. 

Warren -


----------



## Stuster (25/2/09)

kabooby said:


> There was a podcast on the BN with Mike Melm who has been making lambics for something like 30 years. He uses old hops that have been aged in the fridge for the same reason.



Interesting. Very interesting. Is that on the Jamil show on lambics? Or on one of the Sunday shows?

I've certainly got some older hops in the freezer that I could use. They still smell fresh though. Doh.


----------



## kabooby (25/2/09)

Found it.

Here it is

Kabooby


----------



## Stuster (25/2/09)

Thanks, kabooby. Now all I need is four hours to listen to it. :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63 (25/2/09)

Stuster said:


> Thanks, kabooby. Now all I need is four hours to listen to it. :lol:



Yah Stu the 90b file size more or less alerted me to the same thing. :lol: Think I'll be listening in segments too. I've got the Brew Strong cast on about wood ageing ATM. We'll see how we go with this for openers.

Warren -


----------



## glennheinzel (25/2/09)

Over on the Babblebelt forum they have reported that the Roselare blend, Trappist blend (Orval) and B.clausenii will be the next Wyeast seasonal release. It might be time for me to give this style a try.

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread....tpg=1&add=1


----------



## Stuster (25/2/09)

And I already have too many yeasts lying around. :angry:  

Wyeast's seasonal releases as a marketing tool are certainly working on me.


----------



## mikem108 (25/2/09)

What stock have you got Stu?


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## beers (25/2/09)

kabooby said:


> That way you get the reduced alpha without the *stinky cheesy hop character*. I don't think it would come through in the final beer anyway but I am just not real keen on putting them into my beer.



:lol: 
I've been playing 'hide the bag of cheesy hops' around our place for the last couple of months. Been copping a fair amount of grief from the girl... & rightly so too - 100g of broken up 2 yr old Saaz plugs can easily stink out a room.. & it's not a pretty smell. Thank christ they'll be going in the boil soon  

Warren, the brew strong is a good start. But Shea goes into a lot more detail in the session show.


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## warrenlw63 (25/2/09)

beers said:


> :lol:
> I've been playing 'hide the bag of cheesy hops' around our place for the last couple of months. Been copping a fair amount of grief from the girl... & rightly so too - 100g of broken up 2 yr old Saaz plugs can easily stink out a room.. & it's not a pretty smell. Thank christ they'll be going in the boil soon
> 
> Warren, the brew strong is a good start. But Shea goes into a lot more detail in the session show.



Gawd beers they can really stink badly. I don't blame her.  Mine were kept in a pot down in the garage with some termimesh over the top and I could always pick the stink when I'd walk in. To be honest even after nearly 9 years they still don't smell overly flash.

Thanks for the tip on the BN. I might have a listen with the headphones on tonight instead of sleeping. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## kabooby (25/2/09)

It just doesn't make sense to me to be putting that sort of thing in my beer, especially when the aim is to have a low IBU to allow the pedio and lacto to do there thing, not to get your hops all cheesy and stinky  

Kabooby


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## Jye (25/2/09)

kabooby said:


> I am happy to use old hops with a low alpha that have been stored in a fridge or freezer. That way you get the reduced alpha without the stinky cheesy hop character. I don't think it would come through in the final beer anyway but I am just not real keen on putting them into my beer.
> 
> There was a podcast on the BN with Mike Melm who has been making lambics for something like 30 years. He uses old hops that have been aged in the fridge for the same reason.
> 
> Kabooby



+1

Thats where I got my info from and tend to agree... and Im sure hop sellers wouldnt mind us buying up their old stock


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## goatherder (25/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Thanks beers!
> 
> I've actually got the Jamil Lambic podcast on ATM. I'll hunt this one down next.
> 
> Warren -



And Brew Strong did a whole show on Oak, worth a listen:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersar...aging8-9-08.mp3


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## warrenlw63 (25/2/09)

goatherder said:


> And Brew Strong did a whole show on Oak, worth a listen:
> 
> http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersar...aging8-9-08.mp3



Yeah thanks Goat I listened to that one today.  Interesting re; the differences between chips and cubes!  It sounds like cubes are probably the go for long term ageing due to the complexity/layer thing with the charring. I'm wondering if oak staves would have a similar effect to cubes? 

Warren -


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## goatherder (25/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Yeah thanks Goat I listened to that one today.  Interesting re; the differences between chips and cubes!  It sounds like cubes are probably the go for long term ageing due to the complexity/layer thing with the charring. I'm wondering if oak staves would have a similar effect to cubes?
> 
> Warren -



I thought that too. I was going to try cutting up a stave into cubes using a fine saw, should be similar.


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## warrenlw63 (25/2/09)

Just a minor concern goat. I dare say it's unfounded. If you cut a stave won't that sort of leave an exposed or uncharred surfaces along the cuts? I dare say I'm worrying too much here... feel free to dismiss me at will.  

Warren -


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## Ross (25/2/09)

Jye said:


> Ive been thinking about this and wasnt the 07 or 06 crop of Hall something like 2% AA? That would have been great to use. May have to poke around craftbrewer and see if there are any old crops hanging around in the back of the coldroom.




Jye,

We have a limited stock of 12 year old hops in stock for this very use - just not got around to putting them on the site. Can't remember the name off hand but a tettnang derivative from memory & a very low alpha back then. they still smell beautiful as well.

cheers Ross


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## goatherder (26/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Just a minor concern goat. I dare say it's unfounded. If you cut a stave won't that sort of leave an exposed or uncharred surfaces along the cuts? I dare say I'm worrying too much here... feel free to dismiss me at will.
> 
> Warren -



It was a while ago when I listened to the podcast, but I thought the idea of the cubes was exactly that. You have varying levels of toast on the different surfaces of the cut cube to give more complexity. I need to have another listen.


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## beers (26/2/09)

I think they make the cubes by cutting up staves as you suggest.

I've broken a few staves in half & they, well the ones I have anyway, dont seem to be "raw" in the centre. Mine are about 6x30mm.


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## warrenlw63 (26/2/09)

goatherder said:


> It was a while ago when I listened to the podcast, but I thought the idea of the cubes was exactly that. You have varying levels of toast on the different surfaces of the cut cube to give more complexity. I need to have another listen.






beers said:


> I think they make the cubes by cutting up staves as you suggest.
> 
> I've broken a few staves in half & they, well the ones I have anyway, dont seem to be "raw" in the centre. Mine are about 6x30mm.



Yeah I thought they were probably only unfounded worries by me... My guess is the charring process more or less "cooks" the cube all the way through to varying degrees.

Might get my skates on and track down some staves this week. B) 

Warren -


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## kabooby (26/2/09)

Oak chips have been toasted as they are. Oak cubes are cut from staves so they have varying degrees of toast on the cube.

If that makes sense :unsure: 

kabooby


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## bconnery (26/2/09)

Ross said:


> Jye,
> 
> We have a limited stock of 12 year old hops in stock for this very use - just not got around to putting them on the site. Can't remember the name off hand but a tettnang derivative from memory & a very low alpha back then. they still smell beautiful as well.
> 
> cheers Ross



Can I have some then?
Let me know when you do as I have another fermenter that is looking like it needs to be 'retired' into lambic production


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## pmolou (21/3/09)

yay my pellicle just fully covered surface of my lambic and now yet im so tempted to bottle some up and taste it damn i hate how sour beers take so long. Has a massive horse aroma and some other smells im not sure of but the wyeast lambic blend has seemed to do the job...
just a question i've heard of the wyeast lambic blend just dropping out once it chews everything up and never waking up again do you think if i racked off my lambic and put a new brew ontop of the dregs in the fermenter it would start up again or should i pitch a new smack pack and dregs of commercials??? just a question gonna wait another 3 months been 3 already till i rack


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## kabooby (29/3/09)

I was planning on fermenting my Belgian Dark Strong with All Brett C and Brett B but they didn't really take off in the starter. The starter wort had plenty of Brett character but the gravity wasn't dropping after 2 weeks in the starter. I ended up adding a starter of WLP570 to the mix to speed things up. I will pitch in the next few days. While it won't be an all brett brew it will still have plenty of brett character.

Kabooby


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## Franko (29/3/09)

kabooby said:


> I was planning on fermenting my Belgian Dark Strong with All Brett C and Brett B but they didn't really take off in the starter. The starter wort had plenty of Brett character but the gravity wasn't dropping after 2 weeks in the starter. I ended up adding a starter of WLP570 to the mix to speed things up. I will pitch in the next few days. While it won't be an all brett brew it will still have plenty of brett character.
> 
> Kabooby



I hope those Brett cultures kick off for you mate


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## kabooby (29/3/09)

Yeh it was funny. The yeast appeared to be growing on the bottom of the flask and there was a heap of brett character developing, but the gravity wasn't dropping. I slanted some and it appeared to grow on the slant no probs, so I will try again soon.

Kabooby


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## kook (29/3/09)

kabooby said:


> Yeh it was funny. The yeast appeared to be growing on the bottom of the flask and there was a heap of brett character developing, but the gravity wasn't dropping. I slanted some and it appeared to grow on the slant no probs, so I will try again soon.
> 
> Kabooby



It will grow, but as I said in the previous brett thread, it needs large pitches to keep it going. Work it up from a pack into a 500ml starter, to 5L, to 10L mini batch, to 20L batch, etc. Once it starts going it'll keep going, but underpitch and it will take weeks to progress. Fine if you have a really high level of confidence in you wort stability, but otherwise you risk the growth of other organisms during that lag phase.

For some, that might not be a problem as they may even compliment the brett. But not so great if you really want to emulate some of the beers from Pizza Port / Russian River et al.


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## kabooby (30/3/09)

I had a full vial of Brett C and a full vial of Brett B into a 2 litre starter, I thought this would have been enough. The vials were out of date from October last year but I didn't expect this to be a problem either.

Kabooby


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## kook (13/4/09)

kook said:


> I've got another ~ 45L of flanders red going again now. I used a slightly more simple grain bill this time, and a long boil to help get the right colour. Fermented with US05 in primary, then racked to secondary and pitched roselare.
> 
> Also bottled an amber ale with brett (2 bottles of Orval)  Waiting for it to carb up now.



Bottled half of this today. Blended at a rate of 2.2:1 with older FRA (brewed in March 2007). Ended up with 32L bottled!

I'll post again once it's had a month or so in the bottle, but from the bottling bucket it tasted great. The blend worked well, as the older beer was considerably sourer. The newer beer has a lovely melanoidiny malt backbone with subtle funk and light acidity. The blend seemed to emphasise the best of both!


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## Jye (4/5/09)

Finally brewing the base beer which will have the dregs of Lindemans and Cantillon added to in separate kegs. The only change to the below recipe Ill probably make is adding 90g (the whole packet) just so I dont have 10g kicking around. Im guessing the AA has at least dropped to 1.5% which will keep the IBUs to below 10.

*Lindemans & Cantillon Lambics *
Straight (Unblended) Lambic 


Type: All Grain
Date: 4/05/2009 
Batch Size: 38.00 L
Brewer: Jye 
Boil Size: 45.98 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: SK Brew Hous 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.0 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pilsner, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (2.0 SRM) Grain 65.0 % 
2.15 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.0 SRM) Grain 35.0 % 

80.00 gm Strisslespalt [2.00%] (60 min) Hops 11.2 IBU 

3.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
3.00 gm Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 

2 Pkgs Safale American US-56 Yeast-Ale 


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.040 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.0 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.0 % 
Bitterness: 11.2 IBU Calories: -4 cal/l 
Est Color: 3.0 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: SK Brew Hous Mash Total Grain Weight: 6.15 kg 
Sparge Water: 37.76 L Grain Temperature: 25.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 100.0 C TunTemperature: 25.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 15.37 L of water at 74.5 C 68.0 C 90 min


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## petesbrew (30/12/10)

Got some of the wyeast bruxellensis culture. Not sure if I understand the sour game much yet, but pretty sure its used in conjunction with a neutral flavoured yeast, say US56. Do you reckon it would go with a swiss lager S-189 yeast?
The plan is for either a flanders red or oud bruin, or somewhere in between.
Just throwing ideas round in my head at the moment.


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## Quintrex (30/12/10)

petesbrew said:


> Got some of the wyeast bruxellensis culture. Not sure if I understand the sour game much yet, but pretty sure its used in conjunction with a neutral flavoured yeast, say US56. Do you reckon it would go with a swiss lager S-189 yeast?
> The plan is for either a flanders red or oud bruin, or somewhere in between.
> Just throwing ideas round in my head at the moment.



I wouldn't go a lager yeast, I'd go US 56 it's reasonably acid tolerant. 
Also if you want anything with sourness you'll probably need something other than brett to getreasonable acidity. probably add some lacto or just save yourself the hassle and use the wyeast roeselare blend if you are making a flanders style of beer.
This blend has a neutral ale yeast, Brett. L and lacto as far as i can remember.

Edit. You could brew an orval clone with us 56 and Brett. B... there's some good recipes out there for it.


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## barls (30/12/10)

pete im fermenting my latest one with 515 then racking on to cherries and roselare yeast in a couple of days. ill happily put a small amount of roselare in a vial for you and you can culture it up.


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## petesbrew (30/12/10)

barls said:


> pete im fermenting my latest one with 515 then racking on to cherries and roselare yeast in a couple of days. ill happily put a small amount of roselare in a vial for you and you can culture it up.


Cheers Barls, I think I'm swapping some of that with Thommo. But I'll save you a stubby.

Haven't tried an Orval. Will pick one up next time I see some. Hopefully Dan's has some!


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## manticle (30/12/10)

Are you intending using the two yeasts at the same time? 

The way I do it (and have seen it done) is to ferment out with the normal sacch yeast. Mash high and include some dextrinous malt so it doesn't attenuate too dry. Then rack to secondary onto the brett yeast and any flavourings you want and leave it for as long as you can (glass is best with no headspace but plastic is definitely OK for at least 6 months).

Have done this with 3787 and US05 from memory


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## petesbrew (31/12/10)

manticle said:


> Are you intending using the two yeasts at the same time?
> 
> The way I do it (and have seen it done) is to ferment out with the normal sacch yeast. Mash high and include some dextrinous malt so it doesn't attenuate too dry. Then rack to secondary onto the brett yeast and any flavourings you want and leave it for as long as you can (glass is best with no headspace but plastic is definitely OK for at least 6 months).
> 
> Have done this with 3787 and US05 from memory


US05, then the brett yeast was the plan.
MIght play it safe and go with the US05.


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## petesbrew (17/1/11)

I've got a question about the French oak chips. I've got about 30g in a bag floating in the primary of my Flanders red/brown.
I'm going to rack the beer over to a secondary tonight with the brett yeast, but what about the oak chips? Leave it behind? bring it across? replace with fresh oak chips?
Cheers in advance.
Pete


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## manticle (17/1/11)

How oaky does the beer taste at the moment?


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## petesbrew (17/1/11)

manticle said:


> How oaky does the beer taste at the moment?


Not very. Actually it's ended up a bit thin & tasteless at the moment. Would dry hopping with 10g Styrian be out of style?
Cheers
Pete


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## manticle (21/1/11)

There is no real style requirements for this kind of beer I reckon. I've had super sour, lightly hopped beers and highly hopped funky beers (like Orval which I believe is dry hopped with styrians).

It's all about flavour and experimentation.

If you want more oak flavour, add new fresh oak, if you're happy with the level then leave it out. Try toasting the oak in the oven or dry fry pan.


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## kabooby (16/2/11)

Just added some different fruit to my 09 lambic. Last year I added 1.5kg of cherries to 5 litres and it has turned out really nice. I have now added some apricot and peach and can't wait for the results.

So now I have
9l of straight lambic
7l of Apricot lambic @ 300g p/l
6l of peach lambic @ 300g p/l
4l of Kriek @ 300g p/l from last year that was bottled yesterday

Looking forward to trying these. Might have to think about another batch soon to start blending.

Patience Kabooby........... Patience


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## manticle (16/2/11)

Interested to hear how the peach goes. I've got a sour white peach ale planned for some time during this year. I thnk Mosher talks about peaches not holding their own in a beer but the mad fermentationist blog disagrees.

Nothing ventured etc.


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## raven19 (16/2/11)

Slightly :icon_offtopic: Manticle, but I did a peach Kolsch a while back and it received favourable reviews from fellow brewers (minus the gushing from poorly cleaned bottles on my part). The peaches I used were from the in laws peach tree, they are yellow fleshed fruit).


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## kabooby (16/2/11)

Yes it will be interesting to see.

Lindemans do thier Pecheresse which is a nice beer.

Kabooby


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## raven19 (2/2/12)

Some interesting footage from Cantillon Brewery in this vid.
http://vimeo.com/19367846

(found on the brewing network - article here: tbn linky


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## vykuza (18/3/12)

I'm brewing a sour pale using the Russian River bugs I cultured from a few bottles I dragged home from the states. I've fermented a batch on the bugs and gotten a great flavour profile. I plan on putting it to a 50L keg I have and age it, extracting 1/2 of the keg a year and keeping it rolling, a la a Solera. 

So I have a 20L batch ready to go in to the secondary, and what is going to be a big bug yeastcake, ready for the next 20L. 

Question is: am I better off pitching on to the whole yeastcake, pitching a smaller slurry (if so, how much?) or just dumping the wort into the secondary/keg along with the first batch?

The first batch has been fermenting on the bugs for 4 weeks, tastes great (but super slimy... mmm pedio). From what I can tell there's definitely a S. Cerevisiae strain in there.


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## vykuza (20/3/12)

Oh, and to bump/add another question: 

Next year, when I take some of the beer and replace it with fresh stuff, am I better off adding a fermented beer, or wort to the keg, and if fermented, am I better off fermenting it with bugs or with a standard yeast, and letting the existing bugs sour it in time?


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## raven19 (20/3/12)

Nick - I have found pitching wort gives better results rather than pitching already fermented beer.

My flanders red is souring nicely from a wort pitch. But my fermented basic beer on Brett Brux is struggling to give much in the way of sour/funk.

I would also repitch a decent amount of slurry - how much I am not quite sure - maybe head over to the babblebelt forum they have some great insight over there!

Edit - the more you repitch the greater effects you can obtain with the funky yeasts.


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## vykuza (21/3/12)

Thanks Raven. I had a sniff around the babblebelt and by the looks of things they mostly recommend to pitch 1/3 or 1/2 the yeast cake from a 5gal batch in a similar situation. And wort right in next year!


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