# GUTEN



## wide eyed and legless

Just to keep on the Guten hijack I found Murphy China freight the cheapest
all up under the $500 for the 30L but never went ahead

So WEAL how is it you might have to start a new thread because some people will get the sh&*ts for some reason

You said the boil started straight away after the mash was that youre mistake or ???
feed back would be great

If I had a BRAU or a GF it wouldnt worry me as I would be set for making wort just more options now

Have been tossing up making my own Q Kev style wort maker which is another option

Above post by rude from the thread Braumeister 50L for sale

The mistake I referred to was mentioned in post 429 Keg King Robobrew 35 litre single vessel brewery.
The mistake was too much liquor going into the boil after the mash, which after taking the reading the following day was only 1 point out on the SG.
The reason I went ahead and purchased one of these was 1) To use when making a bigger beer 2) I was sceptical about the mash efficiency of the Grainfather and wanted to see for myself.
The efficiency did turn out better than I expected, but I will be brewing again with a 6.6 kg grain bill to see if I can still get a decent result on mash efficiency, but I will be giving it every chance in achieving this by hitting the pause button and giving it a stir a few times during the mash cycle.
Having the return fixed with a camlock fitting means I can quickly carry out this part of the operation on the Gruten.
If a good seal is required around the bottom mesh then a couple of dollars spent on a silicone pressure cooker seal will fix that, (like it is on the Grainfather)
The Achilles heel of these units is the elements, they are cemented in on the Robobrew and the Guten and I presume also on the Grainfather as the company which I believe makes all three in their profile say their R&D team have developed 3 different models, so if the element burns out that is the end of it.
This is where the Braumeister comes into its own, each part can be replaced.
So the element has to be taken care of, the Guten has a dial in wattage so with a jacket and maybe a hood it will not need to run on the full 2500w plus the automated boil can be timed for a 1/2 hour for a vigorous boil and then a gentle boil for the rest of the boil op.
I would also like to point out I am not getting any monetary favours from the manufacturers, like most people I just like to try and get the best for less.


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## Bridges

wide eyed and legless said:


> like most people I just like to try and get the best for less.


So buying a 2nd hand BM like in the original post?


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## wide eyed and legless

I am not sure whether buying a second hand BM can always be considered a saving, unless it is at a very low price.
I bought mine directly from a retailer in Germany 20% discount straight off the top, cost me about $1700 and or including I cant remember now 80 Euro postage.


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## Bribie G

Abend


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## rude

Thanks for the update

What do you mean the element is cemented in ? any chance of a photo ?

Are the elements SS & how is the boil good rolling , vigorous ?

So the controller is user friendly good to hear


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## wide eyed and legless

Here you go rude a video of the inside so you will see the element etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcTXiv0XWW0
Another one of the unit in use, and yes it is a vigorous boil but as I mentioned you can drop the power to get whatever boil you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWldKJG4YhA


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## wide eyed and legless

Notice it is the same pump as the Grainfather.


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## SBOB

whats the pickup on the bottom like?
In one of those videos it looked like an arm to a small false bottom or something (was covered in trub/hops)


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## wide eyed and legless

It has a bazooka secured with a hose clamp.


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## sp0rk

FYI those style elements technically ARE removable
They're just a complete pain in the arse to remove and clean up, impossible to source off the shelf and you need the special heat transfer cement to put them back in


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## wide eyed and legless

Nothing is impossible, but how to get the cement off would be the first problem, can't be burned off that would interfere with the makeup of the s/steel, is there a solvent which can dissolve it, I don't know,I pulled one out of the bin at Keg King, so they haven't got a solution for those cemented in elements, I put it back cos it certainly did look to be a major problem to get the cement off. You would think that there would be a way of fixing the element in situ without using the cement.
I did ask Foshan Shunde whether they had had any issues with burnt out elements but they denied they had, I know GF and Robobrew had problems with them, but one doesn't know if all components are equal, ask a Chinese company if they can make it cheaper (meaning knock a few dollars off) they will take it literally and make, as in manufacture it cheaper.


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## wide eyed and legless

So I tried a bigger grain bill in the Guten unit, 6.6 kilo, I have downloaded the Grainfather instructions but decided I would make a thinner mash, dead space in the Guten is 2.5 litres, using the calcs for the Grainfather 2.7 x 6.6 + 2.5 (3.5 on GF) =20.32 but filled up to 25 litre mark, mashed in and could see the first problem, I was only just under the overflow pipe, wasn't keen on liquor going down the overflow so stuck a piece of silicon hose into the top of the overflow pipe being careful to keep the height of the hose under the malt pipe lifting holes.
This worked so all the mash liquor is draining through the grain bed, second problem I wanted to give the grain a stir, paused the op but as soon as I went to take of the top mesh some husks came out. Decided to give that a miss and carried on, end of the mash sparged with 9 litres of water, giving me a roughley 28 litre boil volume pre boil gravity came in at 1.052 predicted using a 70% efficiency was 1.051 gave a 1 hour boil no chilled ended up with just under 24 litres in fermetor overshot again, am going to have to make a measuring stick, 2litres of trub left in the unit and OG came in at 1.062 predicted 1.063.
So efficiency is nothing to worry about, the other thing I was concerned about was residual sugar coating the bottom of the unit, I had read with the Grainfather to keep scraping the bottom of the unit to prevent any build up but when emptied found everything to be sound, easier to clean than the BM so happy with the purchase.



Clear wort


Trub


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## malt junkie

wide eyed and legless said:


> Nothing is impossible, but how to get the cement off would be the first problem, can't be burned off that would interfere with the makeup of the s/steel, is there a solvent which can dissolve it, I don't know,I pulled one out of the bin at Keg King, so they haven't got a solution for those cemented in elements, I put it back cos it certainly did look to be a major problem to get the cement off. You would think that there would be a way of fixing the element in situ without using the cement.
> I did ask Foshan Shunde whether they had had any issues with burnt out elements but they denied they had, I know GF and Robobrew had problems with them, but one doesn't know if all components are equal, ask a Chinese company if they can make it cheaper (meaning knock a few dollars off) they will take it literally and make, as in manufacture it cheaper.


Not to be too rude, but you picked this up for around $500? I could barely build similar for that sort of cost. Do you know if they are going to be locally stocked? Or otherwise how painful was organising shipping and costs?


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## goomboogo

malt junkie said:


> Not to be too rude, but you picked this up for around $500? I could barely build similar for that sort of cost. Do you know if they are going to be locally stocked? Or otherwise how painful was organising shipping and costs?


Weal works at Crazy Clarks. Everything is under $500.


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## wide eyed and legless

malt junkie said:


> Not to be too rude, but you picked this up for around $500? I could barely build similar for that sort of cost. Do you know if they are going to be locally stocked? Or otherwise how painful was organising shipping and costs?


The company organises shipping, sent out Friday received on Monday, only grouch was paying by PayPal, unless PP charges are different in China I got a surcharge of 6% not 4% which is what PP charge here, but as cheap as it is how could it be a complaint, another forum member has bought the 50L for $690 delivered. I did ask for another member if they could send by EMS but they use some forwarding agent who takes care of the deliveries, and realistically at those prices it is a seller's market so no room to negotiate and they know it.
They are locally stocked under different names, but then you are paying the shipping + costs + the margin the wholesaler puts on + the margin the retailer puts on, + money spent on advertising. Remember they are around $150 each by the container load.
I was thinking of calling the unit the Clever Clarke at Crazy prices.


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## wide eyed and legless

Can be a trifle hard to understand the Guten instructions on programing the timer for step mash, here is a video of setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qsTg9OOYXQ


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## Leyther

Just ordered a 30L one myself, quote was '233usd, delivery cost to AU is 163usd', that did not include the wort chiller, the chiller was only extra $16.80 USD so I figured a no brainer to add that also.

Got a bit stung on the payment, options are Western Union which I think charge was $40USD or paypal which is 6%, I have a prepaid USD mastercard which I loaded at better rate than banks give so I thought would use that via paypal, all fine except paypal then slapped me with a $17+USD fee of their own for doing so.

I ended up paying around $580AUD for unit, wort chiller and delivery. Given a GF is ~1150-1300 it still seems very good value, particuarly given they look to be very similar and quite possibly even built in the same factory!!


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## manticle

That's amazing value if the unit is good and after purchase service exists.

$17? Pocket change, considering.


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## wide eyed and legless

Well done Leyther, just download the Grainfather user pdf and make a note that the dead space is less.
China updated its consumer protection laws a couple of years ago manticle so it covers o/seas buyers, I would expect the reason was their economy was slowing but they were still raking in millions with internet buyers, plus Alibaba and Aliexpress look after the buyer better than eBay does


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## Leyther

WEAL - quick Question, do you use the GUTEN for boiling your sparge water? I'm thinking I probably need something else to do this, in the GF docs it talks about using a SS fermentor but I don't have one of these, the best I can probably do for about 10L is a couple of large pans. Sounds like I should have ordre heater too, might go back to them see if they can add before shipping.


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## wide eyed and legless

Well you could have got this for about $30 plus shipping, but I would just go on eBay and look for a cheap one, I have made my mash thinner than what GF recommend so I don't use so much mash water and I used the BM as the boiler other than that I used to use a pot on the gas stove.


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## Dave70

This flash one even comes with a false bottom. Sort of.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hot-Water-Urn-Soup-Warmer-or-Coffee-Urn-Food-Steamer-30Lts-Stainless-Steel-2000w-/331994636977


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## malt junkie

Does anyone know power specs for the 50L/70L versions. The NBN people broke my internet (for the 4th time) so stuck with the phone only till they fix it. More so I know what sort of power might be required in the shed.


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## wide eyed and legless

3000 watt for the 50 L


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## 620rossco

Are they making a 70litre version WEAL?
50 is released at the end of March so still a couple of weeks away.


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## wide eyed and legless

Not aware of a Guten with bigger capacity than the 50 litre but there was another crowd who were making a 60 and 70 litre, not as good, the recirculation was through the tap into a little brown pump then back to the top, nothing fancy.


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## nosco

quick question for a quick answer. Robobrew with pump or Guten?


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## nosco

So if Guten is programmable and Robo is not then Guten wins for me.


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## peteru

I thought new Robobrew with pump had a programmable controller.

The other thing to consider is after sales support. If you buy Robobrew from an Australian retailer (Keg King directly), you are likely to get decent after sales support and service. If you buy direct from China it is unlikely that you will get any help once you paid and the goods have been dispatched.

If there is one thing I can say about Keg King, it is that they have given me good after sales support when issues with their products have cropped up. In that respect Keg King are much, much better than Grainfather.


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## malt junkie

Re: 70L one of the aliexpess sellers showed models of 30/50/60/70 I can't verify if they were or weren't the guten till I have network back.


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## wide eyed and legless

These are the ones you are thinking of mj these are the ones that have the silicone hose from the tap to the pump and back to the top.
The last thing I would be worried about peteru would be the sales support, after I got mine delivered the sent an email to ask if I had recieved the unit OK they sent an email after my first brew to see how it went and wanted any constructive feedback, plus the fact companies don't spend all that money setting up and advertising to have it brought down by a few unhappy customers.


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## peteru

That's excellent news. Not typical for Chinese products bought of AliExpress. However, if you are actually going to Alibaba wholesale market and they are under the impression that you are testing the waters before you order a container load, they will probably work pretty hard on making sure you are happy.


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## wide eyed and legless

Actually didn't make out I was a container buyer, a few years ago Alibaba was a pretty grim place to do any business, a far cry than what it is today, and if people just took the time to check Alibaba before jumping on to the specials offered by forum sponsors they would find they could get a 50% better deal from the same suppliers the forum sponsors are using.


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## malt and barley blues

After an anxious few days took delivery of my Guten, I have been looking at the GF and Robobrew for a few months but the value just wasn't there, decided to go for the Guten for the price it seemed good value going on WEAL's description, as soon as I had committed to buy I was worrying whether I had done the right thing. Had WEAL beat it up, is it like he claims. (sorry WEAL) 
After opening the box could see I had been worrying for nothing, it is an upmarket version of the GF, polished to a mirror finish with superior fittings for $557 cannot find one complaint.


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## 620rossco

Thanks for sharing MBB


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## Leyther

malt & barley blues said:


> After an anxious few days took delivery of my Guten, I have been looking at the GF and Robobrew for a few months but the value just wasn't there, decided to go for the Guten for the price it seemed good value going on WEAL's description, as soon as I had committed to buy I was worrying whether I had done the right thing. Had WEAL beat it up, is it like he claims. (sorry WEAL)
> After opening the box could see I had been worrying for nothing, it is an upmarket version of the GF, polished to a mirror finish with superior fittings for $557 cannot find one complaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 003.JPG


Looking forward to mine arriving, how long did the post take? she said they sent mine to their forwarder on Friday, hoping might have a new toy to play with this weekend!!


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## clickeral

Hey which seller did you guys use on Alibaba?


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## wide eyed and legless

Foshan Shunde Guten kitchen equipment, believe it to be a retail arm of the manufacturer, if you order 2 you will get them a little cheaper with 3 free $2.00 hop bags and a $5.00 set of compact scales.


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## malt and barley blues

Leyther said:


> Looking forward to mine arriving, how long did the post take? she said they sent mine to their forwarder on Friday, hoping might have a new toy to play with this weekend!!


Around about a week, I know it was 4 days from the forwarder, and we had a holiday Monday so could have been less.


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## Leyther

WEAL/MBB,

do either of you use Beersmith and have an equipment profile setup for the Guten? if so any chance of getting the details (can you export it?)


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## wide eyed and legless

I use Brewers friend for my BM calculations and you can set up your own system on there, they do have the Grainfather on their system but you would just have to alter it slightly. The dead space is 2.5 l on the Guten as opposed to 3.5 l on the Grainfather average efficiency is 70% for GF found the Guten about the same. Download the GF user manual to give you some idea.
Take particular notice of GF's rule number 1 Mash water calcs, grain weight in kg x 2.7 + 2.5 dead space.


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## wide eyed and legless

One other thing I have thought about is the GF, Robobrew and Guten are all elliptical GF has tried to solve the problem by fitting the silicone sleeve but on reading the thread on the GF problems and solutions thread grain husks still get through, if we get some 6mm vinyl or silicone tube and make an "O" ring to lay over the bottom mesh plate this should solve that problem, or the heat will make it expand and not solve the problem.I will give it a go next brew day.


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## Coldspace

Grain husks getting through, if you fit the silicone sleeve properly on the grain father fill with grain, fit top plate without spilling grain on top, then I recon I get on average 2-5 husks of grain caught on the outside. Usually from my **** up,No biggy, 
The silicone seal works a treat, if people are having heaps of issues with grains getting under bottom plate etc and causing issues with heat element base or pump, then they are not doing something right....

If the Guten is a grain father , then why don't you order some silicone seals from G/F and use them?


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## clickeral

Is anyone keen to do a video of their Guten during a brewday would be keen to see it in english and used by someone local


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## wynnum1

wide eyed and legless said:


> Nothing is impossible, but how to get the cement off would be the first problem, can't be burned off that would interfere with the makeup of the s/steel, is there a solvent which can dissolve it, I don't know,I pulled one out of the bin at Keg King, so they haven't got a solution for those cemented in elements, I put it back cos it certainly did look to be a major problem to get the cement off. You would think that there would be a way of fixing the element in situ without using the cement.
> I did ask Foshan Shunde whether they had had any issues with burnt out elements but they denied they had, I know GF and Robobrew had problems with them, but one doesn't know if all components are equal, ask a Chinese company if they can make it cheaper (meaning knock a few dollars off) they will take it literally and make, as in manufacture it cheaper.


How to get the cement off would using extreme cold work.


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## wide eyed and legless

Coldspace said:


> If the Guten is a grain father , then why don't you order some silicone seals from G/F and use them?


As with the early GF the seal can't be fitted,and the size of the Guten is bigger but it is possible to to trim the edge of the perforated plate and get a silicone seal to fit off ebay. That was my intention but I have had no problem with grain husks coming through in the 2 brews, but because of the shape I was thinking of making up an "O" ring to make sure that no husks escape, or use some of the yellow tongue from tongue and groove flooring to make a tight seal around the edge of the perforated plate.(sitting on the top) 
It was only because I have noticed it is a recurring complaint with the GF that I have been thinking about a prevention before anything happened.



clickeral said:


> Is anyone keen to do a video of their Guten during a brewday would be keen to see it in english and used by someone local


The videos I posted were I believe made in the UK on the ACE (that is what it is called over there) and Polish quickly becoming a second language, it was in Polish. Here is another video from the UK in English, though I doubt whether it matters brewing is universal. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG76_VNeM6Q


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## nosco

Would silicone tape work as a seal? Might be a pain to clean.


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## wide eyed and legless

I don't think its a major problem nosco, I haven't had any husks escaping except when I tried to take the top mesh off, just a safety measure really cut a piece of silicone tube slightly bigger than the circumference of the mesh plate slip a piece of smaller silicone tube as the joiner and that could solve any problem should it arise.


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## malt and barley blues

Must remember in future to take out the cord from its hiding spot before I fill up with water, after filling with water and giving it a clean ready for my first brew found the programing fairly straightforward. Looking forward to brew day.


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## Leyther

Chaps, I'm planning my first brew on the Guten, trying to get all my queries out before I start. With regards to the unit itself and dead space/pump/filter/tap. I will probably have my machine on the garage floor, hence to transfer the wort to the fermentor I was wandering if I could use the pump? however if I do this then looking at the machine (from the utube vids, mine should come today) it looks like I will bypass the filter and tap which could mean trub in the fermentor, is there a lot of trub left and would this cause any issues (block pump)? also if I do this then I presume I need to amend my dead space values as the pump inlet is below the tap.

Interested to understand how you guys transfer, I think Ive seen a vid on grainfather where they do use the pump for transferring to fermenter, with my setup I think this would be ideal if its possible.

Also watched a vid yesterday where the guy replaced the mesh filter on his, says it clogs easily and gets a bit bent when the immersion chiller sits on it, you had any issues with this?


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## wide eyed and legless

I put mine on a stand about 500mm high I have no trouble lifting the grain basket and as I no chill I have had no trouble knocking the filter and as yet has not blocked on draining. You will have to see where the inlet is to the circumference of the chiller, there is no reason why you couldn't make something up to filter the wort and transfer via the pump. As long as you have a strainer (hop bag or something)you could try a pump transfer the trub shouldn't block the pump but grain husks may. Also be aware of the safety catch on the tap and don't force it open as I almost did.


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## Leyther

Weal,

Couple more questions if I may, the pipe that goes between the false bottom and the top, I see in the video he has the cap on when mashing in but it's off when he his recirculating the wort. Given there is a cap on the bottom too then wouldn't any liquid just go down and get stuck in the pipe with the cap off? If so when/why would you remove the cap?

With regards to the pump should you mash in then get UpTo temp then run the pump throughout the mashing time or is there a certain point you should use the pump?

Mine arrived today pretty happy with it the only thing that I thought was a bit poor was that filter, looks an afterthought wth the jubilee clip used to tighten onto the thread.

Thanks for all you help mate I owe you a beer or two.


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## nosco

I thought the cap was just to stop grains going down the pipe when doughing in?


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## Leyther

nosco said:


> I thought the cap was just to stop grains going down the pipe when doughing in?


That's how it looks on the video just wandered why you would take it off though as there is a cap on the bottom too unless you also remove that otherwise I think it would just fill up and not go anywhere.


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## Leyther

Doh just looked although there is a connector on the bottom it's actually not a cap liquid can flow through it, makes sense now.


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## nosco

Im keen to hear how your first brew/review goes.


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## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Weal,
> 
> With regards to the pump should you mash in then get UpTo temp then run the pump throughout the mashing time or is there a certain point you should use the pump?
> 
> Mine arrived today pretty happy with it the only thing that I thought was a bit poor was that filter, looks an afterthought wth the jubilee clip used to tighten onto the thread.
> 
> Thanks for all you help mate I owe you a beer or two.


Well you got the cap sorted, also did you find the little silicone grommet? That sits on the overflow tube above the plate to keep a seal there, I run the pump all the time until mash in, switch it off and add your grain, make sure it is well mixed then put the pump back on, I try and keep the liquor from not going down the overflow just to drain through the grain bed but according to the Grainfather it doesn't matter that much. Also I have noticed on a couple of other sites that they are adding 6 litres for the dead space in the Guten/ Ace / what the other German name is.
I would like to know what the space is under the tap on the Grainfather and the space under the filter plate.
Here is a link to the Irish site.
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/all-grain-brewing/ace-microbrewery-ipa-brew-day/


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## Leyther

yes, did wonder what that grommet was for, came in a little pack that said 'spare' so just assumed it wasn't needed but thanks again I'll check it out. 6L sounds a lot, I was planning on finding that out by just adding measured water until it started to come out of the tap, I would have thought the 2.5L you mentioned previously was probably more accurate.

Top or bottom plate for the grommet? i'm assuming bottom?


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## wide eyed and legless

Well the bottom plate should be covered by the 2 screwed pipe joints so I would think the top incase any husk found their way through the gap.


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## wide eyed and legless

Same guy's brewing setup in America, pretty impressive.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=494058


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## Leyther

Did a little test on the dead space tonight, I had 4L of water, opened the tap and poured in until started to run out, started to come out about 3L and then probably ran another 1-200ml out before it stopped, hence I'd say the dead space is somewhere between 2.5-3L, I'll go with 2.75 for Beersmith for now.

Still not sure about that grommit, my little pack says 1 x valve spacer (for spare) I look at where it could go and didnt think it would be any benefit anywhere.

BTW what size tubing do you run from the tap into your cube, I had some 10mm around but it looks bigger than that so I probably need to get some more.


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## wide eyed and legless

I didn't get a note with the grommet just noticed it fitted the overflow tube, could well be a spare valve washer I have yet to remove the valve.
The tube would be 12 mm I have 13 mm and put a hose clamp on because it isn't a tight fit.
You might be interested in this Leyther.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psVrphoMKqg


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## mattyh77

Not sure if it's the same size as Robobrew, but they recommend 12.5mm silicon tubing.


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## Leyther

Picked up some 13mm from bunnings tonight, as close as could find, had to buy 5m of the stuff as they didn't have any smaller!! wasnt planning on 20 bucks for bit of tube but will probably come in handy somewhere down the line.

I saw the MattMill but seems to be only available in EU, I'll see how I go with the Bazooka first. I'm still keen on using the pump to fill my fermentor, just watched the grainfather vid where he does this, doesnt seem to have any issues with pump blocking but not sure if th the GF has a filter on the pump at all and if its in similar location, on the guten its below the bazooka, a whirlpool will help as the inlet seems to be offset a little, will see how I go on the weekend.


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## Leyther

WEAL,

how quickly does the strike water heat up? I was thinking I might set a socket timer on it so its at the mash temp when I get up Sunday but if its not too long I'll just leave it. Also do you know if this would work? as it seems all the settings are done via the PCB I wonder if I set the program then turn off whether it would actually do anything when the power comes on or would it loose that program? have you tried this at all?

Cheers

Leyther


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## wide eyed and legless

It doesn't take long to heat up I set the power to 2kw, but lower the power output for the mash, I wonder if Magic Pancake had set his power to 2.5kw and not adjusted it in his steps when he started the scorching on mashout.
What is your water volume going to be for mash in and what grist to liquor ratio did you end up going with?


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## Leyther

I'm still not certain on those (see my other post on first AG - mash). It will either be 13L or 18L and the grain bill is approx 5kg. Will add sparge to bring upto ~28L.

I think on the latest MP video he sets the mash power down to 1500 once he reaches strike temp. I noticed on the GF vid he drops down to 500watt for the mash, I guess the lower you can get away with but keeping the temp constant is ideal.

Sounds like I wont need the timer, I'll pop on full power when I get up, make a brew (tea!) and take it from there.


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## 620rossco

Hey WEAL are you going to buy a bazooka replacement kit?
It looks good.


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## wide eyed and legless

Does look good googled it and came to a retailer in Holland actually a couple then saw a home made one, looking around the $100 inc delivery so I might have a crack at the home made one I have some of that braided hose in the shed.

Sent MattMill an email just in case.


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## Leyther

I was in bunnings last night but only thing I could find that looked like it was shower hose, obviosuly thats not gonna work unless you remove the inner tubing. If you can source the raw materials I reckon would be quite easy and has to be better than the simple mesh one thats held on with jubilee clip


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## wide eyed and legless

I have already made mine but for anyone interested the Lauter helix is $93.75 delivered.


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## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have already made mine but for anyone interested the Lauter helix is $93.75 delivered.


After my brew day today I think this is the biggest (massive) mistake with the whole thing, it works great but I only got about 1.5L out before it blocked,the BAZOOKA is IMO s piece of SHITE!!!! I ended up using the pump into fermentor because it just wouldn't drain (and the the storm game was kicking off!!), ive ended up with about 3L of trub in the fermenentor which I'm a bit pissed about because after fermentation I probably wont even get 19L.

Its an awesome piece of kit, works brilliantly except that last part, needs an alterntive...hop basket or bag or different method .


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## SBOB

what would you call that hose/spring they use in that bazooka replacement kit?
pretty sure there would be plenty of DIY 1V setups that wouldnt mind a pickup option like that


looks like a 1/2" loose spring rather than a braided hose, but a google didnt help me find anything like that


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## wide eyed and legless

You have to google spiral tubing, I did but there was to much information to get through to find where that particular spiral tube is made, will be in Germany no doubt, I still may get the Brau Fox one as it will be easier to clean than the braiding.

You need a hopsock Leyther, let me know if you want one.


----------



## Leyther

You can see the issue here, I think I'll get one of those hop baskets for next time, will also mean I can use the pump to transfer without being concerned about blocking it, although it coped fine yesterday


----------



## RobW

The Springer from BAC Brewing is a nice bit of kit designed for the Braumeister and could do the job - but a bit exxy (esp after freight is added).

Cheers

Rob


----------



## Leyther

Another observation from my brew day, those volume markings on the side of the machine seem well off, I wonder if they are with the malt pipe in but then you wouldn't be able to see them so they seem a bit pointless


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Had another Google tonight found this Italian job 46 Euro presume it is also including 20% sales tax so comes down to 36.8 Euro around the 50 AUD + Postage, anyone interested?
http://www.birramia.it/en/lauterhelixr-1000-bazooka-filter.html#.WNjJGFWGPX5


----------



## goid

Leyther said:


> You can see the issue here, I think I'll get one of those hop baskets for next time, will also mean I can use the pump to transfer without being concerned about blocking it, although it coped fine yesterday


You might be able to put a 90 degree elbow and run the bazooka around the side of pot. Also with a good whirlpool might help.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> Had another Google tonight found this Italian job 46 Euro presume it is also including 20% sales tax so comes down to 36.8 Euro around the 50 AUD + Postage, anyone interested?
> http://www.birramia.it/en/lauterhelixr-1000-bazooka-filter.html#.WNjJGFWGPX5



I'd definately be interested, did you contact them for price on postage and did they confirm they would remove the sales tax?

I'm not far from you either in Moorabbin so if we can do a single postage and save could be worthwhile.

I


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Yes I have contacted them, Australia is not on their postage list so will have to wait for the reply, I have found shops in the UK do not like to take off the VAT 
but other European countries will .


----------



## 620rossco

> 50 AUD + Postage, anyone interested?


Cheers for that WEAL let me know what you can do.
Definitely interested.

Rossco


----------



## fdsaasdf

620rossco said:


> Cheers for that WEAL let me know what you can do.
> Definitely interested.
> 
> Rossco


 also interested


----------



## wide eyed and legless

All noted, hopefully hear back today.


----------



## 620rossco

No stress they put back delivery of the 50l two weeks.
They recon that they are working on the water gauge.
I am hoping this means that the marks on the side resemble the actual amount.


----------



## Leyther

620rossco said:


> No stress they put back delivery of the 50l two weeks.
> They recon that they are working on the water gauge.
> I am hoping this means that the marks on the side resemble the actual amount.



Haha, I hope so the ones on the 30L I think are just for show as they are way off from my experience, not sure how they could get it so wrong so maybe I am reading something wrongly, maybe they've taken the dead space under the false bottom into account?


----------



## malt and barley blues

I will take a helix WEAL.


----------



## 620rossco

Hi Guys,

I sent Sophia who is a sales rep for Aust at Guten a link to this thread.
They sent 2 emails back:



> Dear Ross,
> Thank you for your kindly information.
> 
> Please kindly help me to post " Adjust the pump flow rate is very important" .
> Slower flow rate of pump is better.
> 
> If element burn out, you can use some vinegar to clean it.


I read the final comment as use vinegar to remove the adhesive on a burned out element.



> This machine is designed for immerse chiller.
> If using counter flow chiller, the ingredient may block the pump.


Interesting because I think the GF uses a counter flow chiller.


----------



## Leyther

I think the vinegar comment is probably more likely to mean you can clean any burn marks off the SS not disolve the element cement.

With regards to the pump, I had a lot of trub in my batch and I used the pump to get into fermentor as the bazooka was blocked, pump worked fine, when I finished I took the bottom off and looked at the pump to see if I needed to clean and drain any trub out but was no sign of any. BTW I assume if the pump does block you need to remove the clear tubing to drain it? I didn't see anything else that was obvious as a drain point, just looks like 10-12mm tubing held on with plastic ties.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Interesting rossco about the counterflow chiller being as they are both the same pump, also interesting Leyther is you have cable ties on your pump connections I have hose clamps on mine.
May be worthwhile rossco to send a link to Sophia about the Lauter Helix, they are keen to listen to any comments to improve their system, let her know that the bazooka is disappointing, even though using a hop sock I haven't had a problem but always aware that I may strike the bazooka when whirlpooling.
I have sent 2 emails now to different retailers of that Italian Helix and heard nothing back, either lazy bastards or not keen on sending to Australia, think it is probably the former.


----------



## Leyther

Whats the Italian for _mañana_.


----------



## peteru

Domani


----------



## 620rossco

> May be worthwhile rossco to send a link to Sophia about the Lauter Helix, they are keen to listen to any comments to improve their system,


Sure I think that is a good idea WEAL.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Got a reply back from the second Italian, "Mr Malty" will take off the VAT as long as I submit an ABN, don't know what difference that makes either protocol for their taxation dept. So that is no problem I will write back and ask for postage price for 5 units and also the difference between the Mattmill one and the Italian one. And wait and see the response from Sophia.
I was thinking about the counterflow for the GF, does the GF come with a pickup tube going to the outer edge of the unit? Otherwise it would be sucking up all the trub, unless the inlet for the pump is on the outermost side of the unit.


----------



## 620rossco

Hi lads, I sent then a request for the maltmill filter.
They asked me to communicate the following about the pump:



> Meanwhile, when the pump is blocked, please follow below step.
> 
> 1. Flush the pump by connecting a hose to the curve pipe
> 2. Dismantle the pump to remove the ingredients.


Should hear about the filter tomorrow, Sophia is quite prompt.

Rossco


----------



## 620rossco

Sophia's reply was:



> Dear Rossco,
> I notice there's pipe from malt mill.
> I just studying it.
> 
> Cause this pipe cost is much higher, for normal buyer, they will not willing to spend this money from start unless they love our machine after 1st or 2nd use.
> 
> So, our distributor will not accept price increase cause of this.
> That's leads to no qty demand for this part.
> 
> But I already looking for the spring, and see if we can amend it ourself.
> Will get back to you later about this.


I replied that it could be offered as an option and that if they can find some we would be interested in a few.
Dunno if we're making progress but tryin...

Rossco


----------



## malt and barley blues

Well done rosco, at least they are aware of an alternative, just a thought, doesn't matter who sends it, but just in case you didn't send the link to the UK dissatisfaction with the Ace bazooka, any one of us could send that link to urge them to do something similar to the lauter helix.
I have 2 members of our brewing club interested now, and one envious Grainfather user.


----------



## nifty

So looking at the specs of the 50 litre model, it is 3000w at 220v. Will this run on standard 10 amp power or will it need 15 amp?

Thanks in advance
steve


----------



## SBOB

nifty said:


> So looking at the specs of the 50 litre model, it is 3000w at 220v. Will this run on standard 10 amp power or will it need 15 amp?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> steve


'will' this run isnt the question..
'should' you attempt to use this on a standard 10 amp outlet..

No, its going to draw around 12-13A on full load


----------



## Coldspace

nifty said:


> So looking at the specs of the 50 litre model, it is 3000w at 220v. Will this run on standard 10 amp power or will it need 15 amp?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> steve


It will require a 15 amp point. Not sure what these would be shipped to you with either 10 amp standard plug top, small pins
Or
A 15 amp plug with large earth pin, small active and neutral pins.

Not sure if these Glutens are aust standards electrically compliant, I'd be checking with the manufacturer to see if these are for insurance etc

3000 watts, it's going to be pulling 14 odd amps, plus maybe pump and controller load etc, so yeah , it will most likely need a 15 amp circuit like the 50ltr breumeister


----------



## nifty

ok, thanks for the replies.


----------



## 620rossco

> It will require a 15 amp point. Not sure what these would be shipped to you with either 10 amp standard plug top, small pins
> Or
> A 15 amp plug with large earth pin, small active and neutral pins.


Yeah they have been checking this with me. Looks like a standard 15amp plug to me. Work with their gear when I make reduced beer, 220v that they make works fine.





I looked at their spring and wondered did it actually need the 'T' piece like the European one or would it work like this coiled with a cap on the other end? This would make it easier to attach and remove. What do you recon lads?






BTW my 50litre is due to be shipped this week. I have no affiliation with them other than to ensure it works when it arrives. They seem keen to receive feedback from their target market over here.

Rossco


----------



## wide eyed and legless

That would work Rossco I have seen similar on other systems, pity we didn't know the supplier, buy the stainless plumbing fittings from Swan and put it together our selves.
Their is a brewing expo coming up in Shanghai, I have been systematically working through the list of exhibitors but it is so time consuming, I have been to a few shows there before (non brewing) and they are massive, don't really want to go there so I have been checking what each exhibitor makes, just looking for something useful.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Haven't heard back from Mr Malt since I told him I would give an ABN, but I have found a manufacturer in China, I will find out the wire gauge which is used to make the tension spring, I know it is 21 mm O/D and I will order one long length.


----------



## Drowro

Sorry to chime in for a lead, but I wouldn't mind getting my hands on the 50ltr version as well. Can someone point me to the source link so I can investigate?

Being trying to go through the threads on here and other on the forum and keep coming up short.

Cheers,
Rod.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

https://gutenequipment.en.alibaba.com/


----------



## 620rossco

Rod they can't supply yet, but they recon they are close.


----------



## Drowro

Thanks Rossco.

I have looking at the Braumister for a while and was about to pull the trigger on one when I came across WEAL's posts. Considering I have a 50ltr setup already which is a 3V system that is been dragged together I wouldn't mind a less costing / more compact system in the 1V setup but didn't want to go back to a 30 ltr system. 

I will follow with anticipation.

Cheers,
Rod.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Making progress with the Chinese spring filter, very quick response time, still waiting for the Italians, I don't know how hard a question,'How much is shipping'
Have sent the details of the spring filter manufacturer to Guten and backed up Rossco's claim that it would be a better system than the current one.
Also sent the UK video of the lauter helix, even if they have already seen it should help emphasise a point of improvement.


----------



## 620rossco

I'll let you know when they contact me Rod.
They were working to a delivery date round the 14th.
I have a 97L setup with a custom abor fab stainless basket.
I am just after more temperature control and recirculation.
Cheers for contacting them WEAL, I think they are more likely to offer it as as option.

Rossco


----------



## Leyther

So group buy on the Chinese one looking favourite at this point! I'm in!!! Probably be cheaper than the Italian one too!


----------



## 620rossco

Rod they filled my order.
The Guten 50litre is being delivered today.
I will post some pics as soon as I am able but it will be a few days.


----------



## 620rossco

Hi everyone,

Been away working and just got back.
Decided to post a few 50litre Guten images.
Total capacity is 50litres so hoping batches of around 40litres will be possible.




Guten packaging, same same...




With Malt pipe.




Same computer and control. Rattles when I shake it, is the pump floating?










Busy this weekend, I'll make a AG wort next weekend.
WEAL where does the silicon washer go??

Rossco


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Its what Leyther said it was, a spare for the tap.


----------



## 620rossco

Thanks buddy.
I'll post as soon as I crank it up.

Rossco


----------



## Drowro

Nice Rossco, Good luck with the first brew!

Rodders..


----------



## Leyther

Rosco, how did your brew go?

I'm putting on a double IPA this weekend, 6kg of grain so might be pushing the smaller version to its limit, I've bought a hop spider this time for the boil hops so I wont block the bazooka this time, will report back how that goes.


My first brew I did a sparge but I've been reading that these systems are basically BIAB, hence if I use a BIAB profile in Beersmith its going to result in a lot more inital water (28L I recall), with a 6KG grain bill I'm concerned it might end up covering the overflow pipe and most of it going down there.

Weal, when you did your 6.6kg brew I note you said you used a silicone tube to prevent this, how much water did you have in at the time?


----------



## Leyther

Hey Guys,

I'm having an issue with my machine tonight, putting a brew on tomorrow so just thought I would get out clean up and relearn setting the program up, plugged in and noticed the temp was fluctuating all over the place, very strange, anyway I looked under it to find the temp sensor cable had come unplugged from the PCB, I just thought maybe I had distrubed it when I took the base off last time to check the pump was clear. Anyway plugged back into the PCB and thought that would be end of it, however when I turned back on again its still all over the place, rechecked and it is plugged into PCB.

Have any of you seen the temp go all over the place like this? I wonder if the sensor or the PCB have gone faulty. I put on a manual 50C heat for 10mins and after 3 mins I can see steam but the reading is showing 1C.

Seriously pissed off, will have to call off tomorrows brewday as cant use it like this. Gonna get in touch with them see what they say.


----------



## Leyther

OK, turned off at mains and left it for 10mins, now seems to be reading correctly, puzzling and concerning but will see how it goes tomorrow.

I did email Sandy so will see what she says.


----------



## nosco

Magical Pancake had to replace his element last month. Not a good sign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP0YnJ50keM


----------



## rude

Leyther said:


> OK, turned off at mains and left it for 10mins, now seems to be reading correctly, puzzling and concerning but will see how it goes tomorrow.
> 
> I did email Sandy so will see what she says.


The old reset fixes a lot of comp probs


----------



## nosco

I just got a quote for $243US + $30US for the chiller + $163US for delivery. Western Union money transfer to avoid the %6 PayPal charge.

$586AU according to my exchange app. I might have to watch the AU a bit before ordering.


----------



## Leyther

Not good news on the element, I managed to get my brew on but I still a bit concerned about the temperature sensor, I think its either a bad connection or an issue on the PCB, hopefully just the connection or wire.

I did email Sandy and she replied very promptly asking me to take a video of the issue and send to her, if it does it again I will do so, does show though that they will be there for after sales service. If it happens again I may ask her if they will send me new sensor and PCB.

What I have noticed with the element is when doing a brew I only use 2500w to heat the strike water, after that its too much and can make the machine go over temperature too much, hence when mashing I am only using 1500W I find that allows it to have a more stable temperature.


----------



## andyt23

Hi everyone.

I was about to pull the trigger on a robobrew yesterday when I came across this thread, and have read a few others mentioning this product as well. I'm sure this question has been answered so I apologise but I just couldn't really find a clear answer anywhere here.

Why would I buy one of these instead of a robobrew? Is it true that the robobrew isn't programmable and this one is? are there any other big differences? I have done extract brewing for a year and am looking to get into all grain, I suppose the attraction of a Robobrew is that there is more support due to more owners and I can get it at the LHBS. The price point looks about the same, the Guten being about $50 cheaper than the robo with pump.

I also viewed this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_W310qoUQ is this exactly the same as the Guten you guys are getting? are any of these problems of great concern?

Thanks very much and again sorry if this has been covered before.

Andy


----------



## Leyther

Its the same machine, you can program upto 6 steps on it. Its quite simple to setup and use and if all going well it works very well.

I've been happy with mine when using it, only issue I have had is with the temp sensor which seems to have settled down now. The hop bazooka can block if your putting hops straight into the machine, my 2nd brew I used a hop spider so it didn't block at all, first time blocked with hop residue.

I've never used a Robobrew but I was at Keg king the other day so I looked at one, it seems much smaller than the guten and doesn't look as good or of similar quality to the Guten IMO.

As he alludes to the setting of the programmer is a little klunky but you soon learn to make sure you get the steps correct. I also don't see an issue with the program going straight into the next step as you really should be watching the machine when at the end of the mash. I've not had any issues with boiling, my machine reaches 100c without issue.

I also dont have any issues with the malt pipe falling in.


----------



## andyt23

Thanks Leyther. One other question to add, is the chiller very good? I already have a 20 plate chiller that I can get my temps down with pretty quickly (with cold tassie water) so I'm wondering if I should bother with the immersion chiller, keeping it simple inside the vessel, or not bother with it and just run through the plate chiller. A decision I probably need to make myself but just wondering if anyone has any insight.

Thanks


----------



## Leyther

I used it on my first brew and ran it with the pump on, chilled down to 28c in about 30mins which I was happy with but I have nothing to compare against. For extra $18 bucks it was a no brainer for me given I didn't have anything else to chill with, I hot cubed the latest one but only because I was time constrained. I spent almost as much on the connectors though as it doesn't come with garden hose attachment had to get two step up adapters to get to a garden hose connection.

Its an easy machine to use and I'm happy with it but I guess the longevity is still unknown, the company in China are quick to respond to questions but not sure how you would go about getting something fixed if it broke, if thats a major concern then you would probably be better going for the robo or if you can afford it the GF as you will get better local support.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sorry Leyther didn't see your question regarding the amount of water I used with that last brew, checked my notes but hadn't wrote it in, believe it was 24 litres. The problem you had has cropped up before in the Grainfather thread where the wire had disengaged, but glad it wasn't anything more serious.
The problem with the element has crossed my mind before, but I am absolutely sure the warranty would be honoured no matter where it was bought from, its good to see the response from Ace when they had a warranty claim.
The same element problem has occurred with the element across all three models, Grainfather, Robobrew and Ace/Guten, but I did read on the Ace thread that the built in knock off switch is also built into the Ace/Guten as with the Grainfather which I wasn't aware of.l will be probably ordering the spring filters this week, had quite a few quotes, will also be fitting one into my Braumeister, the easiest way to provide for those who have a bigger dia base in the kettle is to use 2 spring filters.


----------



## Leyther

I think I need to fiddle with the beersmith setup, it told me to mash with 15l but that was way too stiff so ended up using 17l. I sparged with 17l , did a 15m mash out and a 90m boil, I had about 200g of hop in the spider which did absorb a lot but I was aiming for 20l in the fermenter and ended up with about 16l, meant my gravity reading was very high indicating ending up with about approx 12% abv when was aiming for 8.8%.

I think boil off rate might need advising.


----------



## Leyther

Anyone using Beersmith, this is the setup from Magic Pancake in the UK, I'm gonna update mine to these, hopefully will help with next brewday.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNTrfxo-GpJyF-JRNdRXu56CUjXxxkvtjkXLphlDVTe3Iog_Z_CHonB1i6z0PL2Rg?key=SjZHU0w1NWRlSWlNSWQ0cGlTd1NrblNUT3d4aFJB


----------



## nosco

Every time i look at ordering one the AU keeps going down I might just send an email tonight.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> Every time i look at ordering one the AU keeps going down I might just send an email tonight.


Haha, sorry mate, down down deeper and down for me, I have cash in the UK I need to bring over, ready to pull the trigger any moment!!! Once I've done that then Up, Up, Up


----------



## Lionman

Leyther said:


> Haha, sorry mate, down down deeper and down for me, I have cash in the UK I need to bring over, ready to pull the trigger any moment!!! Once I've done that then Up, Up, Up


Good ol' Murphy...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> Every time i look at ordering one the AU keeps going down I might just send an email tonight.





Leyther said:


> Haha, sorry mate, down down deeper and down for me, I have cash in the UK I need to bring over, ready to pull the trigger any moment!!! Once I've done that then Up, Up, Up


I've been enjoying the drop in the pound sterling, fishing season for me now so have ordered quite a bit of gear over the last couple of months.
As much as I advocate strongly, spend money cautiously, invest money wisely, even in the unlikely event the AUD went up to 80 cents against the USD the saving isn't all that much, and gambling that there would be that much movement is just not worth it. Better off biting the bullet and buying, no matter what it is.


----------



## nosco

I was ready to push the button this week but unfortunately I had rates and a few other bills come around so I will have have to wait for a little longer.

Edit: and the price difference has been about $10 at the most so its really not worth waiting for a miracle/disaster.


----------



## nosco

Does the Guten have a timer to heat mash water in the morning when you wake up?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You won't need one nosco, water would be heated up by the time you've had a horse's breakfast. You will be needing a helix filter I have ordered a couple of spare so if you are going down the track of a Grainfather, Robobrew or Guten let me know.


----------



## Leyther

No timer mate but as weal said not a big issue the 2500w heats very quickly, turn on go make a cuppa and breaky and she'll be apples!!


----------



## nosco

OK so the AU is a bit better and I emailed Sandy and the delivery is a bit cheaper too. According to my app which is probably wrong it will be about $578AU with a immersion chiller. Ive never used a chiller before so I'll check it out.

She sent me the details for a Western Union transfer but theres not much info at all. The form I got from the PO needs a whole lot more info. For example bank code for the Bank of China? All she gave me is First name, last name, bank (Bank of China), account No. and telephone number.

Will AusPost help me with this?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I don't know much about Western Union, I am sure there are plenty of Nigerians who could help.  Just ask at Western Union agency they could put you on the right track, but bear in mind through Western Union once that money is gone it stays gone.


----------



## Leyther

I think I paid by paypal if thats an option but you do get hit with a charge for doing that. $580 was what mine came to but that was all in after all charges. With the chiller I find it works best if you use the pump and recirculate the wort while chilling otherwise you'll get a false temp reading as the chiller is sitting on top of the temp sensor. Just get some 13mm tubing and place one end on the steel bit that goes through the lid and the other end into the wort and pump through that back into the wort so your limiting oxidization.


----------



## nosco

Im gonna go with paypal to save me some greif down the track. Its about $25 extra but considering the total cost i dont mind.


----------



## nosco

I just made the payment. $637 all up. A bit more than I was hoping to pay and a bit more than you can get a Robobrew for but I think it looks and sounds like a better quality unit, I hope.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> I just made the payment. $637 all up. A bit more than I was hoping to pay and a bit more than you can get a Robobrew for but I think it looks and sounds like a better quality unit, I hope.


If you've seen them both in the flesh I don't think there's much comparison to me, Ive seen the RB at Keg King twice, it looks a lot smaller, its more brushed ally in colour than shiny SS and actually doesn't look as solid to me, the trade off is of course you've got local support. Also not sure what its interface is like and if you can do multi step, the gutens programming is clunky but once you get the hang of it its easy enough and works well, PITA if you make a mistake though, there is no corrections is a off/on and start again jobbie.


----------



## nosco

How long did it take to deliver?


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> How long did it take to deliver?


very quick, about a week I think


----------



## Leyther

Weal, how we looking on that helix? 3rd brew tonight, all went great till went to drain, last brew I did was dipa with heaps of hops so I used hop spider, this one was Pilsner, I used the spider for the bittering but I wanted to make sure I got all out of the 5min aroma, only 20g but disaster again, blocked the bazooka and also blocked the pump this time, ended up having to to pour the beer directly into fermentor complete with all break and hops, not great for a pilsner!! gonna have to filter to secondary now before I pitch really is the Achilles heel of this machine 

Anyone else using do yourself a favour and use a hop sock or spider till we get me filter


----------



## nosco

Leyther said:


> very quick, about a week I think


Wjen she said they'd send it in 3 days i thought she meant send ot from theor end in 3 days

I might give the braided hose a try first.

Are you doing any kind of whirlpooling? Does it have any affect?


----------



## nosco

I use a swiss voil hop bag. I heard some people say you dont get the best hop utilisation but i think its great as it filters really well and you can squeeze every last bit of wort out of it for hop goodness


----------



## Leyther

I try Whirlpool but the chiller disturbs it and the bazooka goes into the centre also. For now the spider or sock is the way to go, was just worried about the hop utilisation on a delicate pilsner and was only 20g of hop so didn't expect to be an issue. My last brew had over 100g of hop in the spider and that worked ok


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Weal, how we looking on that helix?


All looking good, payment has been made and they will start to manufacture shortly. If you PM me your address I can send you a hop sock to use until they arrive.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> All looking good, payment has been made and they will start to manufacture shortly. If you PM me your address I can send you a hop sock to use until they arrive.


No worries mate I got a couple and the spider, I'll just persevere till its ready.

BTW whilst cleaning tonight I thought I would finally do an experiment on those volume markings.

This is what I found on my 30L unit:

10L = 11.4L
15L = 16.5L
20L = 21.7L
25L = 27.0L
30L = 32.2L


----------



## Leyther

Still need to get Beersmith dialed in better, my pilsner was supposed to be 1.049 but I ended up with 1.059 had to dilute it to get to 1.049. I think I'm losing more in the boil off than its currently setup for. Mind you by the time I racked off to second fermentor I ended up with 16.5L but I left about 3L of break and hops in the original, diluted with another 3L to get it down. Be interesting to see how it comes up with the helix.

I wonder if another issue is evaporation time during ramp up, this pilsner had the following mash times:
5 min @ 57°C, 40 min @ 61°C, 30 min @ 71°C for 75min in total and another 10m mash out, thats what went into Beersmith but as the machine doesn't start the timer until it hits those temps there is some lag time during the steps.

Just a case of more experimentation till I get it right.


----------



## SBOB

Leyther said:


> No worries mate I got a couple and the spider, I'll just persevere till its ready.
> 
> BTW whilst cleaning tonight I thought I would finally do an experiment on those volume markings.
> 
> This is what I found on my 30L unit:
> 
> 10L = 11.4L
> 15L = 16.5L
> 20L = 21.7L
> 25L = 27.0L
> 30L = 32.2L


looks like imperial litres


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> BTW whilst cleaning tonight I thought I would finally do an experiment on those volume markings.
> 
> This is what I found on my 30L unit:
> 
> 10L = 11.4L
> 15L = 16.5L
> 20L = 21.7L
> 25L = 27.0L
> 30L = 32.2L


Was the grain basket in or out of the unit when you tested the volumes? Though I can't see the displacement throwing it out so much.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> Was the grain basket in or out of the unit when you tested the volumes? Though I can't see the displacement throwing it out so much.


Out, you cant see the markings with it in.


----------



## nosco

Are you measuring mash volume? Could you get a ruler in there or maybe measure the head space?


----------



## Leyther

I was just measuring water in the machine with the mash tun out, there are measurements on the side of the boiler but they are not accurate, seem to be about 10+% out, I've no explanation why, if it was dead space you would expect the discrepancy to remain constant but it wasn't, saying that I was using a plastic 5L jug which I have not measured either so that could also be out but I think the general consensus on those measurements is that they are a little unreliable, they're an 'approximation'


----------



## nosco

I got mine today :super: If get some time ill run some perc through it. Definitely brewing with it on the weekend. I got a little chiller with it too. Ive only ever brewed with biab and no-chill so it should be fun. Ill have to go back and learn a bit about sparging.


----------



## nosco

About 30min to heat 20lt to 67c @2500w with the pump running. Not too shabby and it didnt trip the switch like I thought it would even with a fan heater running as well. The beeper is a bit shit though.

So as a test I set the 67c to 5 min for sparge water temp and then the sac rest of 65 at 10min. Is that what other people have done? I measured the 20lt with a ruler via a volume calculator and it was about 10mm below the 20lt line. Good enough at 20lt but Ill see how it goes with 30+.

Set @65c for mash the temp the Guten read 64c but my Thermapen said 64.7c. Pretty happy with that!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Out, you cant see the markings with it in.


Checked the markings basket in, weighed out 10 litres of water, put in a piece of dowel and marked the dowel at the watermark about 15mm difference between the dowel and the pressing, so the same conclusion as leyther, so around 11.5mm per litre. Not a big deal, just have to use a rule to get the volume of water.


----------



## nosco

So Im trying to figure out Beersmith so that I can actually use it to brew with for a change. What water to grist ratio have people been using for the Guten. I put 3.2 into the mash profile. Im a biaber remember so I have no idea about sparging or grist /water ratio's...or Beersmith really.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

wide eyed and legless said:


> So I tried a bigger grain bill in the Guten unit, 6.6 kilo, I have downloaded the Grainfather instructions but decided I would make a thinner mash, dead space in the Guten is 2.5 litres, using the calcs for the Grainfather 2.7 x 6.6 + 2.5 (3.5 on GF) =20.32 but filled up to 25 litre mark, mashed in and could see the first problem, I was only just under the overflow pipe, wasn't keen on liquor going down the overflow so stuck a piece of silicon hose into the top of the overflow pipe being careful to keep the height of the hose under the malt pipe lifting holes.
> This worked so all the mash liquor is draining through the grain bed, second problem I wanted to give the grain a stir, paused the op but as soon as I went to take of the top mesh some husks came out. Decided to give that a miss and carried on, end of the mash sparged with 9 litres of water, giving me a roughley 28 litre boil volume pre boil gravity came in at 1.052 predicted using a 70% efficiency was 1.051 gave a 1 hour boil no chilled ended up with just under 24 litres in fermetor overshot again, am going to have to make a measuring stick, 2litres of trub left in the unit and OG came in at 1.062 predicted 1.063.
> So efficiency is nothing to worry about, the other thing I was concerned about was residual sugar coating the bottom of the unit, I had read with the Grainfather to keep scraping the bottom of the unit to prevent any build up but when emptied found everything to be sound, easier to clean than the BM so happy with the purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 008.JPG
> Clear wort
> 
> 
> 
> 009.JPG
> Trub


Depends on the thickness of the mash your after Nosco, download the Grainfather users instructions and adjust.


----------



## nosco

Cheers WEAL. Im just reading up on mash thickness now then Ill get the GF instructions.


----------



## nosco

Double post


----------



## nosco

Im going to try this bazooka set up. I already had one so i picked up another one and the T peive today. Im brewing Sunday so ill run some water throught it tomorrow. The one that came with the Guten is alot finer than these ones so hopefully they domt let too much through. I got the (small) immersion chiller with it but ill probably cube the first brew so i can get a good whirlpool going.


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## wide eyed and legless

If you find you aren't happy with that set up nosco I still have a couple of spare of these on the way.


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## 620rossco

Me too please WEAL


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## nosco

Ill test it with 25g of hops into my Hefe on Sunday. Im thinking about getting one for my big brew pot anyway. Whats the rough outside diameter of the spring WEAL?


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## wide eyed and legless

You're on the list rossco, they have been despatched hopefully the tee pieces aren't far behind.
About 20mm O/D nosco


----------



## nosco

Sorry bad description. I was asking how big is the circle that the coil/spring makes?

Edit: but then you might not know that until you het one.


----------



## malt and barley blues

nosco said:


> Sorry bad description. I was asking how big is the circle that the coil/spring makes?


This it what it looks like in the Ace / Guten nosco, but you can shorten them.(watch the video after "YEAH")

We have 2 members of our club with a Grainfather WEAL, they want to know if they will fit in there, and if they do can I order 2 more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psVrphoMKqg


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## nosco

Guess i should have checked their website first. 37cm it is.


----------



## malt junkie

WEAL.,
are you in a position to make these lauter hex devices available as an on going concern or is it just a one off bulk buy? I ask as I have a few systems I could see this doing some really great work. And as work goes I don't really want to have to redo the great work you have done chasing down everything that goes with tracking down and importing a product here. I'd probably be behind on the price anyway. As with all brewers I'm half way between 3 ... OK call it 5 (don't tell the boss) projects, so this is not something on the cards before xmas but I REALLY NEED this for some other developments outside of our discussions on this site(think bourbon drinking missus with gun to my head).
feel me??

Love yer work

MJ


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> Ill test it with 25g of hops into my Hefe on Sunday. Im thinking about getting one for my big brew pot anyway. Whats the rough outside diameter of the spring WEAL?


Interested to see how you go, my last one only had 20g of hops and it blocked.


----------



## mattyh77

I'd be interested if these would work in a Robobrew too.


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## wide eyed and legless

m&bb, yes they will fit the Grainfather, though not with the tee piece their bazooka is fastened with silicone and as these helix pieces (providing they come in at the sizes I requested) will also fit into copper capillary fittings like a finger in a bum, so no big deal to fit using silicone tubing.

mj, providing everything works out it could be on going, the price will be right, and there are a lot of Ace micro's out there.

mattyh, not a problem with the Robobrew, they are exactly the same fittings as the Guten / Ace, also no problem with the Braumeister.


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## nosco

Anyone else had troubles with the pump getting stuck? Its happened to mee twice now. Once with a test a ones today. I dont like the chances of using it post boil or during a boil to get a whirlpool happening.


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## nosco

It seems I have no pump for mash recirc. Very disappointing.


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## wide eyed and legless

What exactly did you do? Once you have finished your mash the pump gets turned off and start your boil.


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## nosco

Just started the mash and went to turn the pump on. It just makes a whiring noise like its trying to get started. No recirc.

Edit : It did the same thing when I tested it with water. I dont think it likes temps above 60c. It would have been ok I think If I left it running.


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## wide eyed and legless

It's a mag drive pump so even if blocked shouldn't do any damage, have you started your brewday?


----------



## nosco

I blew some air down it twice so its not blocked


----------



## nosco

Yeah already started and mashed in. Thats when I tried to start the pump.


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## wide eyed and legless

I don't suppose you fancy taking everything out and checking it out?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0O5pirucEI


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## nosco

I think I will have to but Ill try and salvage the beer if I can.

I have a feeling that once I put cold water in there again it will work fine.

Edit : recirc with a jug works fine but the mash set at 67 has stayed at about 65. Maybe because I have the power set to 1600w as well.


----------



## nosco

Sooooo......I managed to make a beer. First time on a system like this so not surprising I had a few issues but I wasn't expecting the pump to not work. Using the jug worked ok but I didnt seem to hit mash temps. Probably because of no pump, low power and no lid.

I had the boil at 2000w but I wasnt happy with the boil. So I stopped it with 45 to go and restarted it in manual at 2200w and 45min timer. It only ever got to 99c so the timer never started. Ill have to change the boil temp (there's a new manual if any one doesn't have it). After all the mucking about I came out a bit under volume, I havnt checked the OG yet. My double bazzoka did work well and I got a pretty good cone going until I tipped it over for a bit more in the cube.

I cleaned out the urn filled with water and brought the temp up with some perc for cleaning. The pump stopped working (ie didnt turn on again after I turned off) at 50c. I just tried it again at 45c and its still not working. Maybe its not to do with temp. When I get a chance I empty it out and have a look at the pump.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Definitely not a temp problem nosco, in that link I downloaded for you magic pancake seemed to find his hose clamps weren't tight, could be sucking in air, check out the pump, clamps etc problem will be only minor. I did the same as you and checked out everything first with a dummy run but with all systems the user will have to get familiar with them. Once over that hurdle plain sailing.
What I have also done with mine is purchased a s/steel bowl to fit over the top so I can lower the wattage for the boil, last thing I want is a burnt out element. Will post pics when I have modified.


----------



## nosco

I filled it with cold water to flush out the perc and it worked again. Just opened it up now and it has cable ties on the hose. A bit shit but i have a bag of hose clamps so hopefully its an easy fix.


----------



## nosco

Pics of the ss bowl idea would be great.


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## wide eyed and legless

Mine has hose clamps,I hope they are not going to start penny pinching like they did on the Grainfather.


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## nosco

Maybe i an attempt to stop air getting in they thought it would be a good idea to silicone the pump hoses on


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## wide eyed and legless

That's totally out of order.


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## Leyther

Mine stopped last time but I just thought it was because it blocked with hops, when I cleaned it I blasted the jet down the hole and it worked ok with clean water then, was fine during mashing no issue until I tried to use the pump to get the wort out once the bazooka blocked


----------



## nosco

So after 3 attempts to get the pump going by tightening the hose clamps I changed the hoses that come with it. They are very thin and it is really awkward trying to tighten the clamps with out them turning around the hose and putting a hole in them. I changes them over to regular silicone hose. Its twice the thickness. Now it doesnt work at all :lol: :angry:  It just keeps making the whiring noise. Ill try again sometime.


----------



## Leyther

Get in touch with Sandy, they usually quick to respond. Making me nervous. Is this 30 or 50L model


----------



## nosco

Its the 30lt. I sent her a message today and she replied back and said maybe it was blocked. I messaged since but she hasnt got back yet.


----------



## nosco

I sent Sandy a video of the pump not working. I just got a reply back and they will send me a new pump so I cant really fault the customer service. Hopefully it all works out.
I did notice that you can buy the same pump on the net for $80au delivered? Maybe not as powerful as the mark II.


----------



## HBHB

malt junkie said:


> Not to be too rude, but you picked this up for around $500? I could barely build similar for that sort of cost. Do you know if they are going to be locally stocked? Or otherwise how painful was organising shipping and costs?


Doubt it. Purely for the exercise, checked out the wholesale cost and worked out the 10 odd K for Australian electrical compliance and you'd basically be giving away the first 300 units plus they won't supply any warranty ex factory. usual costs of freight, GST, Customs clearance pay the man $ etc. plus another $43,000 in stock holdings would likely see the accountant either having a stroke or sitting in the corner rocking.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

As they do already have European accreditation to get Au NZ accreditation would come in under the $10,000, around $7000 to $8000 and if the manufacturer were keen to get them into Australia I am sure they would come to the party in participation of payment. The question would be,would it be worth anyone's while to bring them in, homebrewing is a small market, more economical for the punters to cut out the middleman and his markup, cut out the GST and buy direct.Even with the surcharge of buying one unit and shipping one unit still works out a bargain. An importer would either have to be mad or both to compete against that.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Finished off the hood today, can't wait for the tee pieces to arrive to test "Ole Snakey" in the Guten, will be setting it up different to Magic Pancake's set up, confident it will work just as well as it did in the Braumeister.
I would like to put a jacket around it, but it's just sooo shiny


----------



## nosco

Your not worried about DMS then? Ill see if I can hunt down a stainless bowl that size. What did you use for the cylinder?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Not at all worried about DMS, I have a similar setup on my BM I don't know if you have boiled with yours yet nosco but the 2500w is more than enough to get a vigorous boil going, so I can drop the wattage with a hood still get evaporation. Plus filtering through the helix eliminates almost all the trub from going into the fermenter.

This was the last of my runnings from the BM using the helix


----------



## nosco

Do you have more Helix yet or are you still waiting on them?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Got the helix, (helixes?) waiting on the tee pieces but now I have had a good look at them and how good the helix worked on the BM, I think there will be a better way of utilising the helix, I will check out the plumbing fittings at Reece today.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fitting the helix a little differently than magical pancake, not a lot of room under the tap but I want to get as much wort out as possible with a syphoning effect, will be giving it a try shortly.


----------



## Leyther

Looks good, interested to see what the flow through is like, the helix looks quite tightly coiled. So how exactly have you connected it?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Well comparing the two as I have it in the BM and in the Guten.



There is not a great deal of difference in the tightness of the coil, and when you get your helix Leyther if you run it as magic pancake did his with the horse shoe shape, I am sure you will think the gap between the coils to be to wide, plus the fact he used hop flowers not pellets would make a difference to his set up.

Final running with no hop sock taken from the BM


----------



## Leyther

Just setting up my recipe for this weekends brew, I use Beersmith and in the past I have used Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge as the Mash Profile. I was reading somewhere recently that these 1V systems are a sort of BIAB hence wandering if I should switch to that. Only problem with the sparging is I dont have a pot to heat a large amount of sparge water in, hence its the hot tap (~50C) mixed with some boild water for a just about correct temp.

Never had any issues with sparging however I've started to look at water adjustments and Beersmith is calculating the adjustments on the full volume i.e. 35L hence more suitable to BIAB otherwise I have to break down the adjustments into boil and sparge amounts which in the middle of a brew day is a bit of a PITA.

Interested what others with the Guten tend to do?

Attached is my weekend brew plan with BIAB Medium body. This is a Clone of Firestone Walker Union Jack, the water adjustments are based on Melbourne SE water against BruNWaters Hoppy Pale Ale profile.

Leyther


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## wide eyed and legless

Be interesting to see how you go with that one, I had a bad brewday yesterday, tried the Guten with 800g of crushed maize, have made this recipe before (Bass Pale Ale) the mash got stuck twice, transferred to the BM which I had made the Bass in before and had the same problem. Got 3 large bags of rice hulls which I use as a growing medium in hydro but because I managed without them before never used them. Worst day ever, a load of trub which was mainly gluten I suspect, but lesson learned.


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## Leyther

All plugged in ready to rock, thanks mate, little tricky to connect it up it kept wanting to be a snake and tie itself up but only 5 mins of man handling and all set, I reckon will be big improvment on the bazooka.

Thanks WEAL


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## wide eyed and legless

Your welcome.Don't throw away the old bazooka, cut it down and it may come in useful here.


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## wide eyed and legless

A better brew day today, sailed through it, no sparge method dough into full volume, step mash regime, 75 minute boil, hops straight in no safety net results as good as with BM using the helix, really impressed with this simple method easy to clean as well.
The boil.



The trub



End result cold break just starting to form.


----------



## wobbly

Hi WEAL
That's all pretty impressive.
Do you have any of the spring spirals left or are they all accounted for and if the latter do you have contact details of where/who you sourced them from in China
I have a 20lt Braumeister and would be keen to source one for use with that machine 

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Lionman

Those springs look pretty sweet, where do you got them from? What are they usually referred to as or used for?

Edit: Are they extension springs? Can gett shorter ones off ebay, a 1m one would be better.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

wobbly said:


> Hi WEAL
> That's all pretty impressive.
> Do you have any of the spring spirals left or are they all accounted for and if the latter do you have contact details of where/who you sourced them from in China
> I have a 20lt Braumeister and would be keen to source one for use with that machine
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


I have a few left Wobbly I have the 20 litre BM, if you like I can fit it up to slot straight in, just send me a PM and I will send you the details.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Lionman said:


> Those springs look pretty sweet, where do you got them from? What are they usually referred to as or used for?
> 
> Edit: Are they extension springs? Can gett shorter ones off ebay, a 1m one would be better.


Yes, 304 Stainless steel just over a metre long, Mattmill sell them for filtering.
http://www.mattmill.de/laeuterhexe/


----------



## malt and barley blues

Awesome piece of kit WEAL,to be honest for the price I thought it would be something cheap and nasty. Much appreciated.


----------



## Leyther

Ok, todays brew lesson, DONT do the full volume BIAB method!!!

The machine doesn't have enough volume for the full amount of water and grain, also if you do then kiss goodbye to the top of the malt pipe!!! Only saving grace was due to installing the helix I still had the bazooka which I had to place over the pipe to prevent the grains going down it, no chance to put the top plate on either so water just pumping straight into the mash just have to keep manually stirring it :-(

Got to love this game, every brew a new issue to solve


----------



## wobbly

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have a few left Wobbly I have the 20 litre BM, if you like I can fit it up to slot straight in, just send me a PM and I will send you the details.
> View attachment 106533


WEAL
There is obviously something amiss with my skills to navigate this new set up as I can't seem to find the link to send you a PM but I am definitely interested in getting one from you so if you can let me know payment details etc and if you are prepared to post it to me at my cost we can go forward

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## SBOB

WEAL
i brew in a birko urn with a DIY guten like setup. PM'd for some details


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Ok, todays brew lesson, DONT do the full volume BIAB method!!!
> 
> The machine doesn't have enough volume for the full amount of water and grain, also if you do then kiss goodbye to the top of the malt pipe!!! Only saving grace was due to installing the helix I still had the bazooka which I had to place over the pipe to prevent the grains going down it, no chance to put the top plate on either so water just pumping straight into the mash just have to keep manually stirring it :-(
> 
> Got to love this game, every brew a new issue to solve


What I do Leyther when doing a full volume is stick a piece of silicone over the top of the drainage tube,giving it more height, you have to add a bit more grain as well to make up for loss of efficiency. Your recipe was straight forward no adjuncts so it shouldn't be a problem (by the way let me know how that beer turned out I had one the other day, very nice) or as you did stick the old bazooka over the top, but cut down so you can put the lid on.


----------



## Leyther

The helix much better than that crappy bazooka although flow rate is still quite slow about 1L per minute but at least it's flowing!! 

This brew did have 150g hops in the kettle mind, I reckon is a great addition but if going very hoppy I think the spider and the helix is probably the better way to go.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The reason I put my helix around the outside is when whirlpooling, the trub will settle in the middle, when everything is settled turn on the tap it should empty as normal, you swayed my confidence in the first setup I had because the spring did look tight but it is OK.
Did you notice how the springs part in the horseshoe shape, it will definitely work better put around the outer edge and get rid of the spider, that is the whole point of it. If you cut yours to a size and try it around the outer edge and you're not happy with it I will exchange it for another one. Believe me it works a lot better cut to size to fit around the outer, no matter how many hop pellets go in.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> The reason I put my helix around the outside is when whirlpooling, the trub will settle in the middle, when everything is settled turn on the tap it should empty as normal, you swayed my confidence in the first setup I had because the spring did look tight but it is OK.
> Did you notice how the springs part in the horseshoe shape, it will definitely work better put around the outer edge and get rid of the spider, that is the whole point of it. If you cut yours to a size and try it around the outer edge and you're not happy with it I will exchange it for another one. Believe me it works a lot better cut to size to fit around the outer, no matter how many hop pellets go in.



Will give that a go, I never seem to get a good whirlpool going but as I use the chiller too it gets in the way, Might be better witht the single inlet and the spring around the outside with the end cap you had, what did you need for that setup?

I'm still happy with it, the bazooka wouldn't even drain more than 1.5L at least I managed to get 17L out with the helix so big big improvement.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Will give that a go, I never seem to get a good whirlpool going but as I use the chiller too it gets in the way, Might be better witht the single inlet and the spring around the outside with the end cap you had, what did you need for that setup?
> 
> I'm still happy with it, the bazooka wouldn't even drain more than 1.5L at least I managed to get 17L out with the helix so big big improvement.


Over the 1/2 BSP male thread (tap thread)screw on a female barbed fitting, over the barb put a small piece of heavy duty 3/4 silicone, you will need a copper capillary 90 degree elbow slip that over the silicone, put the helix into the copper fitting, (fits much easier than into the screwed fitting.) and a blank end piece over the end of the helix. Also if you didn't want to shorten the helix just use a cable tie to fasten it up to the tap area, bugger of a thing to cut I have a black thumb nail where it sprung back on me. 
Those copper fittings you can get from Bunnings.


----------



## wobbly

WEAL
Not sure if you received my response to your offer to sell me one of your helix's but I have responded to your message but don't seem to have received your email advise. 
I have been having a few issues (missed emails) with my account so if you could send again it would be appreciated

Wobbly


----------



## nosco

I got my replacement pump last week but only got around to changing it over. Its working perfectly at 80c. Ive read of 2 other people who had the power switches or the connections burn out.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Magical pancake had a burn out on his switch but says it was his own fault for not connecting the wires correctly. That was good service from Guten. I had a scare a couple of brews back, playing around with the temp when using the hood for the first time on the boil kept dropping the wattage then heard a clunk and the temp started going down, switched to the BM and cleaned the Guten, although there was an opaque look over the elements, not a scorched look cleaned with 1/2 a grapefruit and filled with water worked fine so it was just the knock of switch kicking in.
Must say I have really warmed to the Guten, easier to clean than the BM, bigger payload just wish the pause button would work properly, for the money it is a good bit of gear, just like the BM as my safety net, built like a Leopard 2 tank.


----------



## malt and barley blues

WEAL, Robbo wants to know where the t piece goes on his Grainfather, he said it doesn't seem to fit anywhere.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The 'T' piece doesn't go anywhere on the GF it is a silicone connection he has to fit it as I fitted up the BM with either a copper capillary 'T' piece or elbow. The screwed connections are for the Guten and Robobrew and any other thread connected taps.


----------



## nosco

Got my Helix today thanks WEAL! It came with a T piece too which I wasn't expecting. I think I might go with an elbow though so I can run it around the edge of the pot. Having said that I think my Guten will be getting more use than my bigger brew kettle that I bought it for.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You could still use the T piece and stick a plug in the other end and screw it onto a 45 degree angle also if you go on Aliexpress and get some silicone tube (I found a 19 x 14mm,) there was one mob selling a 19mm ID but no longer available.It's a tight fit but that also makes it into a pickup as well. I got the washers yesterday so hopefully I have enough unfranked stamps around to send them out.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> You could still use the T piece and stick a plug in the other end and screw it onto a 45 degree angle also if you go on Aliexpress and get some silicone tube (I found a 19 x 14mm,) there was one mob selling a 19mm ID but no longer available.It's a tight fit but that also makes it into a pickup as well. I got the washers yesterday so hopefully I have enough unfranked stamps around to send them out.



I'm planning on doing something similar, just gonna block one end of the Tee and one end of the spring and just run the spring around the outside, might be slight overlap due to size but will either tie that up or just run it inside the first ring, should still give us the gap in the middle for the whirlpool to collect.

Gonna head down to bunnings on the weekend and see what I can find to fit over them, i'm sure there will be something to do the trick.

Something like this will probably do the trick but might need to remove and replace each brew but cheap enough https://www.bunnings.com.au/tommy-tape-25mm-x-1m-self-fusing-silicone-tape-3-pack_p1560475


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Keg King have 1/2 " BSP plugs Leyther, but best to ring to see if in stock.
http://kegking.com.au/misc-plumbing-fittings/stainless-bsp-fittings.html?mode=list


----------



## malt and barley blues

WEAL,fitted my helix today using an elbow and an end cover, would not fit under the tap so its ok to go over the top?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sorry MBB I did reply and I should have posted here, started a new thread the,Lauter Helix.



Leyther said:


> Will give that a go, I never seem to get a good whirlpool going but as I use the chiller too it gets in the way, Might be better witht the single inlet and the spring around the outside with the end cap you had, what did you need for that setup?
> 
> I'm still happy with it, the bazooka wouldn't even drain more than 1.5L at least I managed to get 17L out with the helix so big big improvement.



I was thinking whether it would be worth trying using the pump to get a whirlpool going, some silicone tube over the edge of the vessel, held with one of those spring clamps they have in the $2.00 shop, should be enough power to do it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Decided that with my next brew on the Guten I am going to get to know it's performance better, the brew before last I boiled with the hood on set on 2000w boil was fine but the last brew I went up to 2100w with hood on and seemed to make a substantial difference to boil off.
I have started by making a measuring stick, marking at 2 litre increments, setting the base of the stick in the lower ridge of the base. What I found was the first 2 litres was at 17mm, each 2 litres after that it was 20mm / 2 litres (just to save anyone else doing it) will report back on grain absorption and boil off.


----------



## Leyther

That would be great, I'm still not hitting the figures in beersmith which I reckon is mainly down to boil off


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Received an email from Sandy at Guten this arvo, I expect that others who have purchased the mash tun will have the same email, they are now going into the s/steel conical fermenters 28.4 litre, will be interesting to see the price for these.


----------



## nosco

I didnt get that message. Maybe she doesnt like me after i asked for a replacment pump  I looked at them online though and they look pretty good.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Nothing to do with that nosco, I am the only one Sandy has told and I got a second email saying to keep it a secret as even their customers don't know, 
I did wonder why it would be wanted to be kept a secret, realistically they should be pleased to get it out there. So now I am thinking how much like the Grainfather conical it's going to be.


----------



## nosco

So i guess its not the one i was looking at then.


----------



## Magicalpancake

Hi guys! Awesome to see the mods you guys are doing. Look forward to learning with the rest of ya!


----------



## Magicalpancake

Anyone build a modified pick up for the pump for the Guten yet? Working through some random bits I got laying around. Seen some of you have used the drain of the valve as a pick up which was what I wanted to do originally. 

The blichmann hop blocker with a Whirlpool never clogged on me on my larger setup. 

How about raising the pick up 100mm or so? Or raise it just enough for the grain basket to fit then do 90 degrees?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

This is what I have been playing around with, odd size and not a perfect hole for the inlet so a piece of silicone tube, the cut off from the helix and an end cap.With the helix being straight and tightly compressed I could almost guarantee nothing getting past it, trouble is with it being towards the centre it could block but a piece of copper tube running to the edge and picking up from there would be far better.


 

My brew at the weekend where I took some figures are as follows 5.5 kg MO & 0,200 kg Vienna dough into 24 litres of water 90 minute mash, lauter 3 litres, loss to grain was 5 litres added another 3 litres of water 25 litres 75 minute boil, should have added an extra 2 litres pre boil gravity would have allowed it.
Lost 5 litres to boil set on 2,000w with hood on, and it was a vigorous boil, 180 gram of hops but the helix kept them out of the FV, and put to use the old filter after cutting it down.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Posted above in wrong thread.
How did you go with the whirlpool Magic? Could you not have used the pump with some silicone tube around the top?


----------



## Leyther

Weal,

I assume this fits into the pump drain hole? allowing you to use the pump even with hop sludge in the kettle? are you doing this so you can use the pump for whirlpooling?



wide eyed and legless said:


> This is what I have been playing around with, odd size and not a perfect hole for the inlet so a piece of silicone tube, the cut off from the helix and an end cap.With the helix being straight and tightly compressed I could almost guarantee nothing getting past it, trouble is with it being towards the centre it could block but a piece of copper tube running to the edge and picking up from there would be far better.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Was thinking initially along the lines of people who would prefer to brew with the unit on the floor and empty from the pump, ideal place for the pump inlet would have been where Robobrew have theirs close to the edge, with the Guten a line would have to run back to the edge and use the helix as we are now. I could try it with the short helix length as in the pic if it got blocked I could still empty from the tap. The only downside I can see is the fine particles would not be able to be filtered out when recirculating as the helix would prevent this, so instead of the particles being dumped on the top of the grain bed they would stay in the dead space.


----------



## wobbly

wide eyed and legless said:


> My brew at the weekend where I took some figures are as follows 5.5 kg MO & 0,200 kg Vienna dough into 24 litres of water 90 minute mash, lauter 3 litres, loss to grain was 5 litres added another 3 litres of water 25 litres 75 minute boil, *should have added an extra 2 litres pre boil *gravity would have allowed it.



May well be a stupid question but why are you adding make up water prior at the start of the boil because all you are then going to do is boil for longer/harder to get to you target volume into your fermenter. Couldn't you add it just prior to the end of the boil if you were concerned about needing to sanitise it. I understand the need to boil for a set time etc but boiling a bit less volume would require less heat/energy input.

Maybe I'm missing something

Wobbly


----------



## wide eyed and legless

No you're right, although the energy needed wouldn't be much more, I was documenting the boil off rate for the Guten as yet I haven't done any figures and with the choice of wattage the last boil I did was at 2,100w and the boil off was more. Though this boil seemed very aggressive and the only thing I had done differently was wrap one of those car sun visors around it as it was a cold day.


----------



## wobbly

If you have the wattage most likely not an issue but with my 29lt Braumeister the greater the boil volume the longer it takes to reach boiling point (100C) and then it is only just a gentle roll and I have found that if/when doing a full volume mash (no sparge) that it adds quite a bit of time to the brew boil phase. 

I guess the question I should be asking is, within reason why is boil off rate so important. As above I understand the need to have sufficient boil off to get rid of DMS etc but I don't understand the need to have to boil off anything over say 8% and I never understood why guys with gas fired systems strive to have a really really strong boil with evaporation rates in the high teens

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## wide eyed and legless

What I have been reading lately wobbly is 75 minute hard boil (which we don't get in a BM) for full hop bitterness utilisation, I know how the BM performs and I want to know the Guten better, I am happy with the boil at 2000w but wanted to know what I am losing to the boil, hood on, and hood off, what I am losing to grain absorption plus the efficiency of a no sparge. Trouble with that is I can't dump grain knowing there is still sugar in there, even though it would benefit the compost heap more.


----------



## wobbly

Water boils at 100C at sea level and that we cant change no matter how hard we try and from there on if you are putting more energy in to get a more aggressive boil what you are achieving from the vigorous boil is greater "boil off" not hotter temperatures. So from your reading I conclude that it's the "agitation" from the "aggressive boil" for the full 75 mins that results in the "full hop bitterness". If this is the case then putting our hops in hop socks/sieves etc would appear to be a backward step. That is one of the reasons I obtained the helix from you to use in my Brau instead of the hop sieve when I get back home 
I understand your current research/trials is to enable you to understand how your GRUTEN performs and I'm with you about not dumping sugar into the compost heap!!

Wobbly


----------



## timmi9191

wobbly said:


> Water boils at 100C at sea level and that we cant change no matter how hard we try
> 
> Wobbly



What if the water is under pressure?


----------



## malt junkie

^^ Temperature is neither here nor there; your equation is power/volume/elevation/properties of what is being heated. A rolling boil is what does the job. Heat and agitation are required for both hop utilisation and removal of DMS there are high altitude breweries that can only boil in the low 90's, however they still attain proper DMS removal and hop utilisation with standard boil off rates. 

Don't know how far this could be pushed at the edge of the stratosphere I'm pretty sure there'd be an issue or two.... anyone who picked up a surplus B52??... who has some spare time and fuel be glad to hear some _real world stats._


----------



## malt junkie

timmi9191 said:


> What if the water is under pressure?


Don't do/try this! Unless you have qualifications in engineering/pressure vessels.

Lower the pressure the lower the boiling point.


----------



## wobbly

^^ Doesn't change the point that I made and the circumstances that most/all of us brew under with a very very few exceptions so your points are noted and for the sake of discussion irrelevant

Wobbly


----------



## paulyman

malt junkie said:


> Don't know how far this could be pushed at the edge of the stratosphere I'm pretty sure there'd be an issue or two.... anyone who picked up a surplus B52??... who has some spare time and fuel be glad to hear some _real world stats._



I'm pretty sure I heard that is the next Brulosophy exbeeriment. Unfortunately I also heard that despite having a whole 4 tasters onboard they couldn't obtain a statistically significant result.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Multi tasking yesterday while doing two different stouts last stout coming to end of boil when I went out into the yard and saw the boil over, stayed with it early on to keep an eye out for a boilover so thought it would be OK.
Only on the 2000w but the hood makes a big difference.
Found for me the best thing is to put it on manual to get it up to around temperature first thing, have breakfast etc then go and set up the program, just wish it would mark time like the BM.


----------



## nosco

Probably nothing new to 3Vers but as a BIABer im really impressed at how clear the wort gets with this kind of brewing. It seems to help with the final product as well.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It is impressive isn't it.


----------



## goatchop41

I may have an upcoming decision between a Guten and a Grainfather.....
A friend may be selling his GF, with bluetooth controller and extra piping....but I have been following this thread closely, and looking at one of the 50L Gutens. Not only would the Guten end up costing a little less than the secondhand GF, but it would also allow me to do double batches. On the other hand, a GF is a GF, and it has the bluetooth controller......

What are the thoughts of those who have Gutens? Or even hopefully someone who has both??
I'm also wondering what % efficiency you're finding with the Guten (friend gets about 80% on his GF)


----------



## patto

Just ordered one of these today, only the 110v 1800w version. Fingers crossed it has a reasonable boil. Living in the southern islands of Japan so hoping for some quick postage.


----------



## nosco

A sous vede rib eye cooked in the Guten. 60c for 1hr 30. Ill go a lower temp next time. Very tender and juicy


----------



## Boxcar

goatchop41 said:


> closely, and looking at one of the 50L Gutens. Not only would the Guten end up costing a little less than the secondhand GF, but it would also allow me to do double batches.



Go best of both worlds. It would be very easy to disconnect the Guten's own controller and wire up SSRs and plugs to allow using a Grainfather Connect Controller. The GF mobile app & controller firmware will do their business as usual, perfectly fine on your larger vessel.


----------



## goatchop41

Boxcar said:


> It would be very easy to disconnect the Guten's own controller and wire up SSRs and plugs to allow using a Grainfather Connect Controller. The GF mobile app & controller firmware will do their business as usual, perfectly fine on your larger vessel.



Maybe if I had some sort of electric/circuitry knowledge....there's no way that I would have the confidence to do that without clear instructions!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

patto said:


> Just ordered one of these today, only the 110v 1800w version. Fingers crossed it has a reasonable boil. Living in the southern islands of Japan so hoping for some quick postage.


It is quick, if I remember right ordered mine on a Friday delivered Monday.

goatchop, comparing the 2 side by side the finish on the Guten is superior and it has a slightly bigger capacity, and also carrying handles, efficiency would be much the same, as the process is identical, the biggest difference is the price.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

wide eyed and legless said:


> I had read with the Grainfather to keep scraping the bottom of the unit to prevent any build up but when emptied found everything to be sound, easier to clean than the BM so happy with the purchase.




Just out of curiosity. What sort of mash paddle do you use to 'scrape' the bottom of your guten/Grainfather/BM? Plastic, wood, stainless?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Wood, but always make sure it is clean before a brew.


----------



## SnailAle

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere but does someone have the supplier or link to a website where people are ordering these? I'm interested in the 50l model. 

Cheers all,


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sandy丨GutenKitchenEquip <[email protected]>


----------



## goatchop41

As I am no the most electrically minded bloke going around, I feel the need to confirm this with others here:
The 35L model is 2500W, whereas the 50L is 3000W. My understanding is that this means that the 35L model is fine to run on a standard 10A outlet/circuit, whereas the 50L model would require a 15A outlet? (One of which I do not have in my house. I regret not including one when I had it built last year )


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I think 2400 watt is max for 10 amp, but I doubt you will need that much.


----------



## rude

Depends on you're voltage supply
Over here in the west ours is 254 V
So I =W/V
If Vic is 240 V then yes 10 amps


----------



## 620rossco

goatchop41 said:


> As I am no the most electrically minded bloke going around, I feel the need to confirm this with others here:
> The 35L model is 2500W, whereas the 50L is 3000W. My understanding is that this means that the 35L model is fine to run on a standard 10A outlet/circuit, whereas the 50L model would require a 15A outlet? (One of which I do not have in my house. I regret not including one when I had it built last year )


Yeah 50litre requires a 15a circuit.


----------



## nifty

Took delivery of the 50lt unit yesterday. Sparky putting a 15a circuit in on Saturday.


----------



## nosco

wide eyed and legless said:


> I think 2400 watt is max for 10 amp, but I doubt you will need that much.



I have wondered how it can run at 2500W on a 10amp circuit. I think the first brew I did I ran it at 2500 to get it to mash and boil temps.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> I have wondered how it can run at 2500W on a 10amp circuit. I think the first brew I did I ran it at 2500 to get it to mash and boil temps.


It isn't much difference nosco 2500 watts would be a bee's knee over 10 amps


----------



## SnailAle

nifty said:


> Took delivery of the 50lt unit yesterday. Sparky putting a 15a circuit in on Saturday.


What's the sparky stinging you for that?


----------



## patto

Just had my unit delivered tonight. 110v version. It measures the temp in .1 degree increments. Is that the same as you guys have?


----------



## Leyther

No ours only measure in whole degrees Celsius. Might be newer model


----------



## patto

Leyther said:


> No ours only measure in whole degrees Celsius. Might be newer model


Just checked the instructions, also has a hop addition timer and need to press auto to confirm to start mashing & boiling.


----------



## goatchop41

SnailAle said:


> What's the sparky stinging you for that?


I'd be interested to know too


----------



## 620rossco

The bill is less than $200 boys, but it depends on where. It needs a new fuse. I have them around the house, up under the eves. Really handy for stuff other than brewing.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

patto said:


> Just checked the instructions, also has a hop addition timer and need to press auto to confirm to start mashing & boiling.


You should put some photos up, does it look the same as what we have? They have said that they are open to suggestions to improve it but .1 increments is a bit fancy pants. Though I did see a recipe the other day that was a mash at 65.4 or something like that, thought it was just the translation from F to C.


----------



## patto

Here's a pics of the control panel and part of the instructions. From what I can gather, it can store 9 recipes too.


----------



## patto

Ah, won't upload the photo of the instructions... to large apparently.


----------



## patto

Worked this time


----------



## Leyther

Looks like a new controller unit


----------



## Leyther

Chaps, had a good brew day today,machine didnt miss a beat however just cleaning up and I've discovered an issue with the the part that pushed into the pump outlet, I've just filled the machine with Sodium Perc and I like to run some through the pump and out the end to clean that part too, I noticed when I put the connector in that it was loose, its normally snug and when you clamp down the two little handles it makes a tight connection however its all really loose and I thought it would probably leak which it is doing. Not sure if Ive lost an O-ring or something, any chance any can check to see if theres has an o-ring or send me a close up of the connecting parts. I obviously need to fix this before next brew otherwise it will spew wort rather than pump back in.


----------



## patto

Leyther said:


> Looks like a new controller unit


I think so too. Was a nice surprise.


----------



## patto

Leyther said:


> Chaps, had a good brew day today,machine didnt miss a beat however just cleaning up and I've discovered an issue with the the part that pushed into the pump outlet, I've just filled the machine with Sodium Perc and I like to run some through the pump and out the end to clean that part too, I noticed when I put the connector in that it was loose, its normally snug and when you clamp down the two little handles it makes a tight connection however its all really loose and I thought it would probably leak which it is doing. Not sure if Ive lost an O-ring or something, any chance any can check to see if theres has an o-ring or send me a close up of the connecting parts. I obviously need to fix this before next brew otherwise it will spew wort rather than pump back in.



I can check mine tonight, at work at the moment


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther, looks like you have lost the "O" ring.

I see you also have a recipe base on that model too patto.


----------



## Leyther

Yes mate just realised that, thankfully I think that's the spare they sent me. I did tip it up to chuck the hops into my compost bin so it probably went in there. All good, was good brew day, think I've almost got the beersmith Params dialled in correctly now, almost hit them today, had sightly higher OG at 16.2 than beersmith which was 15.6, 21l into the fermentor where it says 23 I think it's the boil off rate, I changed to 4L/hour I think it's probably sightly more but very happy today.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I think it is a different one to the spare you got with the Guten, it is a black one I will take mine out tomorrow and check dimensions, probably find something to suit in those "O" ring kits Bunnings sell, or Clarke Rubber, they aren't far from you.


----------



## Magicalpancake

wide eyed and legless said:


> Posted above in wrong thread.
> How did you go with the whirlpool Magic? Could you not have used the pump with some silicone tube around the top?


I thought about doing it this way and it would probably work if you fashioned a copper/ss pipe so it would run down and around and attached it to the recirculation pipe with silicon. I just happened to have a drill and a valve handy from my brewery back home. It wasn't going to cost me anymore so I went the route I did. There real problem is the pick up at the bottom, taking in all that trub, hot/cold break, and hops. Next brew I'm going do without the lauter helix entirely and drain directly from Whirlpool port when I'm done chilling. I'll report back of course.


----------



## Magicalpancake

Well looks like I had another part fail on me. I was having problems with the control unit shutting off mid boil or for any length of time after any build up of burnt malt. Found the thermo cut off switch attached to the kettle at fault. Bypassed it just to make sure. Picked one up from a dealer here in the UK and fixing to brew again in a couple of weeks.

If anyone was ever wondering what thread the screws are for this sensor, computer harddrive screws fit.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

When I had the knock off switch, 'knock my boil off' scared me since then before I do a brew I make sure that the base of the boiler is impeccably clean, and as yet have not gone over the 2000w.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Magicalpancake said:


> I thought about doing it this way and it would probably work if you fashioned a copper/ss pipe so it would run down and around and attached it to the recirculation pipe with silicon. I just happened to have a drill and a valve handy from my brewery back home. It wasn't going to cost me anymore so I went the route I did. There real problem is the pick up at the bottom, taking in all that trub, hot/cold break, and hops. Next brew I'm going do without the lauter helix entirely and drain directly from Whirlpool port when I'm done chilling. I'll report back of course.


When I initially thought about using the pump, run to the side and still use the helix wrapped around the edge, I discounted it because any grain husks which under normal operation would get dumped on top of the grain bed would not get past the helix and still be in the wort come boil time.


----------



## Magicalpancake

Next go around I'm going to drain from whirl pool port. Check out this cold break from last session. 12g/L of pellet hops already in this:


----------



## bobbytheknife

Hey Lads,

Me and my brew mates brought in a few of these 30L Guten / Ace units. We wanted one each and I work in the freight industry so I got a few extra to make it worthwhile. They include the immersion chiller and a hop spider. If anyone is in the market for one shoot me a message.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## wide eyed and legless

May have to be a bit careful selling them, even though they are EU certified they are not AU certified, don't know if there is a way around this.


----------



## SnailAle

wide eyed and legless said:


> May have to be a bit careful selling them, even though they are EU certified they are not AU certified, don't know if there is a way around this.



What do you mean by certification?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Anything electrical has to carry a certification of compliance stamped on the side, if you import something solely for your own use that is fine but for resale it isn't. It is a money making exercise, the EU certification is more rigorous than AU/NZ but electrical goods for resale still have to have been inspected and certification issued when sold here.


----------



## bobbytheknife

wide eyed and legless said:


> May have to be a bit careful selling them, even though they are EU certified they are not AU certified, don't know if there is a way around this.


They have a capacity of greater than 10L so are not considered a "Declared Electrical Product". From my understanding Certification is not mandatory for non-declared products. They still have to meet minimum safety requirements for electrical products, which they do.


----------



## malt junkie

bobbytheknife said:


> They have a capacity of greater than 10L so are not considered a "Declared Electrical Product". From my understanding Certification is not mandatory for non-declared products. They still have to meet minimum safety requirements for electrical products, which they do.


where are you located?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

bobbytheknife said:


> They have a capacity of greater than 10L so are not considered a "Declared Electrical Product". From my understanding Certification is not mandatory for non-declared products. They still have to meet minimum safety requirements for electrical products, which they do.


I checked a while ago I was thinking of bringing in a container of 30 and 50 litre models and they definitely should have the compliance certificate, though to be fair I am sure that Zhongshan Jinchu would have paid 1/2 the cost if I had committed to the purchase. It is a wank when they already carry the EU certification, and I would have every confidence in the safety but it is just to cover your own back.Someone else checked as well, one of the AHB retailer's.


----------



## bobbytheknife

wide eyed and legless said:


> I checked a while ago I was thinking of bringing in a container of 30 and 50 litre models and they definitely should have the compliance certificate, though to be fair I am sure that Zhongshan Jinchu would have paid 1/2 the cost if I had committed to the purchase. It is a wank when they already carry the EU certification, and I would have every confidence in the safety but it is just to cover your own back.Someone else checked as well, one of the AHB retailer's.







I agree it's a massive wank, but it's not listed in appendix E of AS/NZS 4417.2 so I'm going with certification being optional.


----------



## nifty

So earlier in the thread braided hose was mentioned, did that work for draining the wort? I've got a few lengths left over from my old mash tun and was wondering if it could be used instead of the spring thingy?

thanks
steve


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Am I missing something, but doesn't that say 'not' exceeding 10 litres?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Braid will work nifty but not as good as the spring and its a buggar to clean.


----------



## SnailAle

How are people finding the 50 litre models? 

Any major issues with the units at all? 

I've spoken to Sandy and been awaiting a reply.


----------



## nifty

wide eyed and legless said:


> Braid will work nifty but not as good as the spring and its a buggar to clean.



ok, thanks. If it gets too messy i'll ditch it and look for something like your spring option.


----------



## nifty

SnailAle said:


> How are people finding the 50 litre models?
> 
> Any major issues with the units at all?
> 
> I've spoken to Sandy and been awaiting a reply.



Havent used mine in anger yet, but hopefully soon. Bloody work keeps getting in the way.


----------



## goatchop41

Can someone please tell me what this silicone elbow is for? I can't for the life of me work it out, and it's way thinner in diameter than the elbows going to and from the pump


----------



## nosco

Its a spare. Its the same as the type of hose that are on my pump. Maybe its an older type and your pump has a newer type on them? My machine came with a spare like this.


----------



## goatchop41

I thought it was a spare for the pump too, as it's the same shape and silicone material. But the ID and OD of the 'spare' is about half of that which is on the pump....


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Not a dip tube?
Send the photo to Sandy she will know.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Another observation from my brew day, those volume markings on the side of the machine seem well off, I wonder if they are with the malt pipe in but then you wouldn't be able to see them so they seem a bit pointless


Found out why the markings are out, when they embossed the Grainfather increments with the roller, they used the same roller to mark the Guten, as the Guten has a larger diameter the increments are thrown out of whack.
Would have thought the tech dept would have picked up on that, or they did and just ignored it.


----------



## goatchop41

Had my first run on my 30L unit today.
One lesson that I learnt - I need to mill much more coarsely than I thought.... I went with the oft-recommended gap of 'credit card thickness' and ended up with a metric shitload of flour amongst my grain [emoji35]
This, in conjunction with 45% of my grain bill being wheat malt, resulted in a stuck sparge! (Something that I've never encountered before as a BIABer). What was planned to be a cruisy brew day with me being mostly free thanks to the mash programming of the guten actually turned in to me having to constantly tweak the recirculation flow rate, then **** about trying to free up the grain bed to allow some flow through.
I ended up way over volume and under gravity, and still under gravity after a two hour boil to try to get my volume back down to something reasonable.

At least one positive was that the helix did a hell of a job! The pic doesn't do it justice, even though I forgot to add my whirlfloc, the trub cone was lovely and tall until I got greedy and drained wort from below it


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Write every step down methodically to get to know how it performs, I had trouble with the Guten and the BM with a stuck sparge, I was reading Gordon Strong adds a 1lb of rice hulls per gallon not just when he is using wheat, oats, maize and the like but for every brew, says it keeps the mash insulated.


----------



## malt junkie

wide eyed and legless said:


> Write every step down methodically to get to know how it performs, I had trouble with the Guten and the BM with a stuck sparge, I was reading Gordon Strong adds a 1lb of rice hulls per gallon not just when he is using wheat, oats, maize and the like but for every brew, says it keeps the mash insulated.


So in real measurements 450g to 3.8L. Call it 100g /L thats near 2 kg a batch. Thats 2kg of grain space though with free flowing bed and I wouldn't call it insulation, but greater mass will hold heat better but will take more power to heat intially, which you could do with more grain, but then up goes the gravity. Having pushed my malt pipes to and beyond their limits over the years (hydrostatic pressure will bend 2mm plate surprisingly). I found a good crush and a hand full of hulls (per 5kg grain) will get you through even when stretching the boundaries.


----------



## nosco

ON my last brew on the Guten (No.5?) the drainage slowed to a trickle. Is that a stuck sparge? I took of the top plate and gave it a stir and it was as good gold. I opened the valve right up after that.

OT sorry. MJ is hydrostatic pressure the pressure from the wort via the pump recirc?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sorry about that MJ should have said per 5 gallon not one gallon.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> ON my last brew on the Guten (No.5?) the drainage slowed to a trickle. Is that a stuck sparge? I took of the top plate and gave it a stir and it was as good gold. I opened the valve right up after that.
> 
> OT sorry. MJ is hydrostatic pressure the pressure from the wort via the pump recirc?



Was you using the helix nosco ? My Landlord clone slowed down yesterday in the BM for the last 21/2 litres, I was thinking instead of leveling it up as I usually do is to slightly tilt it back then level it at the last drop, though I have never had trouble before, could have been my whirlpooling.


----------



## nosco

Nah just using the 2 bazooka's and a T peice. The Helix is for my bigger system that Im upgrading with a malt pipe. But ive been enjoying brewing with the Guten so much latley and with other stuff the bigger pot hasnt got a look in for a while.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

goatchop41 said:


> Can someone please tell me what this silicone elbow is for?



Just got my 30litre guten. I think this silicone elbow is to attach the ss bazooka to the outlet tap? Something like this perhaps?


----------



## goatchop41

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Just got my 30litre guten. I think this silicone elbow is to attach the ss bazooka to the outlet tap? Something like this perhaps?



Nope. Sandy replied to my email and said that it is a spare for the pump. I haven't had the time to open up the bottom and check the size again. Perhaps the tube from the inlet to the pump is smaller than the one from the pump to the recirc arm, I can't recall and in all honesty probably didn't have a really good look!


----------



## SnailAle

I did my first run last weekend and it seemed to have gone off without a hitch. 

Just a quick question though, I'm hoping to do another this weekend, and regarding cleaning. Do people clean it by heating up water in unit or do you use a cleaning agent? Just wasn't sure if putting a cleaner in might be bad for the pump/element or something.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Use some sodium percarbonate in some water heated up to about 55 degrees and recirculate, otherwise you will be getting mould in the bend of the recirculating tube. Also let it dry before packing it away.


----------



## SnailAle

wide eyed and legless said:


> Use some sodium percarbonate in some water heated up to about 55 degrees and recirculate, otherwise you will be getting mould in the bend of the recirculating tube. Also let it dry before packing it away.


Yeah right so just some oxper? How do you dry the tube? Do you rinse it with water before running?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I recirculate for about 10 to 15 mins, once all the sugar residue has been washed out just let it air dry. Before using again I do repeat the process if I haven't used it for a while, otherwise just a rinse with cold water.


----------



## malt junkie

nosco said:


> ON my last brew on the Guten (No.5?) the drainage slowed to a trickle. Is that a stuck sparge? I took of the top plate and gave it a stir and it was as good gold. I opened the valve right up after that.
> 
> OT sorry. MJ is hydrostatic pressure the pressure from the wort via the pump recirc?


yeah but not applicable to these units, I have a Bm clone(reverse flow of GF/guten), initial testing was a lot of trial and error.


----------



## nosco

Just curious. I have an untested 1V on the go.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Has anyone been able to get a filter working so the pump can be used for a cf chiller or even just pumping out?

The alternative might be to use the helix and pump from the tap then silicone hose back into the top while using a cf chiller. How do those KK mag drive pumps handle a bit of debris if it got through?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You could get the pump outlet to pump out, I was thinking of doing something along those lines, the problem I could see was, if I ran a short helix into a tee piece with the helix around the perimeter is that any bits of husk would be trapped at the bottom and therefore go into the boil. If you wanted to leave the Guten on the deck and pump the wort out, a better idea would be to use the helix as normal write to Sandy and ask if you could buy a spare pump, would cost a poofteenth of buggerall and set the pump to pump out of the tap into the fermenter.
The pump can handle some debris that's why it's good to not to impede the outlet in any way the debris gets pumped to the top and stays there


----------



## DaFooze

Am looking at the Robobrew Vs the Guten at the moment. Had a chat with one of the suppliers from Alibaba and they have said that their product material thickness is only 0.5mm of 304SS. Does anybody know what the material thickness for the Robobrew is? If anyone has one that could measure??
Cheers


----------



## nosco

I imagine it would be very hard to measure because of the lip on the top. If your thinking about the durability of both machines Im guessing that they would be made from exactly the same grade and thickness of stainless.


----------



## Lionman

Anyone get a quote recently for the 50L Guten?

Worked out at about $700 delivered when I talked to the supplier. Has it gone up?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I don't think rossco paid that Lionman, I remember someone saying either $600 or $650.

Agree with nosco on the gauge of the Guten and Robobrew you can add the GF into the mix too. Anything heavier than that and you will have to be looking at the BM.

The fermenter isn't far away either.


----------



## DaFooze

I got quoted about $400AUD for the cost of the 50L plus postage and $330 for the 30L. I've dealt with Alibaba a few times before and the more you buy, the cheaper it is... obviously I guess. So if anyone in SEQ is interested in getting one, let me know and maybe we could get a deal going??


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Doesn't work like that with Guten, a pallet load they may knock a bit off, a container load, a lot off. For two pieces they offered me a free set of hop scales and a couple of hop socks.


----------



## DaFooze

Just got the quote for postage, $200USD. Guess the Robobrew is happening instead.


----------



## goatchop41

DaFooze said:


> Just got the quote for postage, $200USD. Guess the Robobrew is happening instead.



You should be able to get a 35L for about $550 AUD or 50L for $650 (that's including delivery and wort chiller coil). At that price point, it is much better value than the robobrew


----------



## malt and barley blues

Especially with the improved control panel, though I would probably only use the hop timer.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> I imagine it would be very hard to measure because of the lip on the top. If your thinking about the durability of both machines Im guessing that they would be made from exactly the same grade and thickness of stainless.



about 10 brews in with mine now and no issues with the steel at all, to me it looks better quality than the robos i've seen at Keg King.


----------



## Leyther

Did a pilsner on the weekend, target post boil gravity should have been ~1.050 however once again i've come in very high at 1.061, what was supposed to be a ~5% beer is now looking at closer to 7!!! I don't want a 7% pilsner so I'll have to add ~4L water to get it down to where it needs to be. This has been a common issue I've had since using the GUTEN, I use beersmith and although I keep tweaking the settings I'm still missing a trick somewhere. I have upped the boil off rate by my suspicions are its still not high enough as my fermentor volumes are usually lower than expected.

Anyone else having this issue or managed to tune (and get accurate) their beersmith settings for the GUTEN?


----------



## SnailAle

Leyther said:


> Did a pilsner on the weekend, target post boil gravity should have been ~1.050 however once again i've come in very high at 1.061, what was supposed to be a ~5% beer is now looking at closer to 7!!! I don't want a 7% pilsner so I'll have to add ~4L water to get it down to where it needs to be. This has been a common issue I've had since using the GUTEN, I use beersmith and although I keep tweaking the settings I'm still missing a trick somewhere. I have upped the boil off rate by my suspicions are its still not high enough as my fermentor volumes are usually lower than expected.
> 
> Anyone else having this issue or managed to tune (and get accurate) their beersmith settings for the GUTEN?


We'll I had the opposite issue last run with a hefeweizen, came under the target OG. Aside from that I've really enjoyed using it so far.


----------



## Leyther

SnailAle said:


> We'll I had the opposite issue last run with a hefeweizen, came under the target OG. Aside from that I've really enjoyed using it so far.


 

Dont get me wrong I love the machine, works a treat I just need to get the software dialed in better.


----------



## nosco

I use Magical Pancakes equip profile and over 5 brews ive been within a degree or 2. Learning how to use Beersmith may take a while though


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> I use Magical Pancakes equip profile and over 5 brews ive been within a degree or 2. Learning how to use Beersmith may take a while though


Nosco, can you post a pic of your equipment profile, also whats your brewhouse efficiency set to? 

When you boil what do you set the power on the machine to? I usually use 2000W


----------



## nosco

Ill post the profile when i get a chance but im pretty someone posted it in this thread a while back.

Im not sure about bh efficiency. Like i said im still learning BS so in saying that i guess its at the default.

I have been boiling at 1900W as per someones sudgestion on the face book page so about the same. It seems to work well. Ive been tending towards a less vigorous boil these days. Ive been using 1200w for maintaining mash temps but that might be a bit low as it seems to struggle sometimes.


----------



## rossbaker

Would love to hear some more feedback from anyone who has the 50l model... Brewdays, niggles, batch sizes etc.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> Ill post the profile when i get a chance but im pretty someone posted it in this thread a while back.
> 
> Im not sure about bh efficiency. Like i said im still learning BS so in saying that i guess its at the default.
> 
> I have been boiling at 1900W as per someones sudgestion on the face book page so about the same. It seems to work well. Ive been tending towards a less vigorous boil these days. Ive been using 1200w for maintaining mash temps but that might be a bit low as it seems to struggle sometimes.



Cheers, I mash at higher than that, usually 1500-2000, pretty sure its just my boil off that's out, I trawled around a lot before deciding on the dead space, etc so I think those are probably good.


----------



## SnailAle

I've been mashing on around 1600, boiling at 2000. 

I've read online about blokes boiling at full noise and completely effing the thing up in no time.


----------



## goatchop41

Leyther said:


> Nosco, can you post a pic of your equipment profile, also whats your brewhouse efficiency set to?



This is Magical Pancake's setup, which Nosco said that he used


----------



## nosco

Thats the one. Also shows how much I know about Beersmith


----------



## nosco

Apologies if it has been asked before but whats the grain limit on the 30lt Guten? Or I should say what have other people pushed it to. Im planning a DIPA with 7kg for this weekend. Ill go a bit more if I can. 

BS says 33.78 mash volume needed with a "red dot" but thats with a 90min boil. 50% pils and old habits. I guess stirring will be tricky too.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I did my first brew with 6.9 kgs of grain, it looked like more could fit


----------



## Leyther

Ive done about 6.5kg, biggest problem you'll have is the overflow pipe. you might struggle to get the top mash plate on and secured with the usual top nut, however if you've got the helix and kept the original bazooka you can stick the bazooka on the overflow pipe to stop grains running down it. I reckon your approaching the limit at 7kg.


----------



## nosco

Thanks Leyther. Thats an excellent idea.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Yeah i had to do what leyther did with the bazooka


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> Thanks Leyther. Thats an excellent idea.



Thank WEAL, it was him who thought of it


----------



## nosco

I should be paying more attention [emoji1]


----------



## goatchop41

I've also seen a bit of silicone tubing used to extend the overflow pipe, both here and on a UK forum


----------



## goatchop41

Speaking of the overflow pipe - do you assemble it with the shorter section on the bottom, or the top? I did the longer section on the bottom during my first go with it, and because of that I don't think that the top plate was able to sit on top of the grains. It was stopped by the one of the threaded connectors and sat on top of that.
Is it supposed to be able to sit on top of the grains? I thought that it needed to in order to create a good compact grain bed for sparging


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Use the short section on the bottom/ longer section on top if you're doing a bigger grain bill. Just the longer pipe on it's own if it's a small grain bill.


----------



## nifty

rossbaker said:


> Would love to hear some more feedback from anyone who has the 50l model... Brewdays, niggles, batch sizes etc.



Depending on how much grain you have in the batch, you might get a surprise when you go to lift the grain pipe out after mashing. The 50ltr unit was on a stand about 600mm high and when i went to lift the malt pipe out after mashout, I nearly busted some internal organs trying to get it out. I had to stand on the bench and deadlift the grain out. I usually mash with about 9kg of grain, so with the grain, the absorbed liquid and the wort on top, it was a bit of an effort.

Another thing I found was that there is 8 litres of liquid between the base of the malt pipe and the bottom of the boiler, so you might have to take those figures into account when working out your liquid to grain ratio and boil volume.

cheers
steve


----------



## nosco

So 7kg seems to be a little too much[emoji23] ive had to use a couple of bolts to bring the basket up a bit and some silicone hose to stop the over flow so it seems to be working. BS wanted me to use 29lt of strike water!!?? Lucky i didnt i went with 26 and i should have used less again.





Made a bit of a mess but not too bad. A bit more than usual grain than usual went over the side. Hope fully the pump gets it. A little bit of spillage went over the side and on the control panel but it didnt seem to go over the screen. I hope its alright.


----------



## Gout

nifty said:


> Depending on how much grain you have in the batch, you might get a surprise when you go to lift the grain pipe out after mashing. The 50ltr unit was on a stand about 600mm high and when i went to lift the malt pipe out after mashout, I nearly busted some internal organs trying to get it out. I had to stand on the bench and dead lift the grain out. I usually mash with about 9kg of grain, so with the grain, the absorbed liquid and the wort on top, it was a bit of an effort.



Nifty, i am reading the thread with interest, with the 50Lt unit and the malt pipe weight is there any risk the pipes false floor might give way when lifted?
I am also worried as i planned to brew on a bench (lifting above shoulder height would be hard work) so i will need to consider lowering it to the floor or hook up a hoist, which i have an "I beam" above.... Do you brew on the ground? If so draining to the fermenter will be hard.


----------



## rossbaker

nifty said:


> Depending on how much grain you have in the batch, you might get a surprise when you go to lift the grain pipe out after mashing. The 50ltr unit was on a stand about 600mm high and when i went to lift the malt pipe out after mashout, I nearly busted some internal organs trying to get it out. I had to stand on the bench and deadlift the grain out. I usually mash with about 9kg of grain, so with the grain, the absorbed liquid and the wort on top, it was a bit of an effort.
> 
> Another thing I found was that there is 8 litres of liquid between the base of the malt pipe and the bottom of the boiler, so you might have to take those figures into account when working out your liquid to grain ratio and boil volume.
> 
> cheers
> steve



Thanks nifty this is all really useful information. The 8l gap is significant, that is much more than the robo brew which is my only point of comparison. I wonder if that would affect its ability to produce a higher gravity single batch single batch (without having to increase the boil)? How have you found it other wise when brewing larger batches? Have you needed to use all elements for a rolling boil?


----------



## goatchop41

Gout said:


> Nifty, i am reading the thread with interest, with the 50Lt unit and the malt pipe weight is there any risk the pipes false floor might give way when lifted?
> I am also worried as i planned to brew on a bench (lifting above shoulder height would be hard work) so i will need to consider lowering it to the floor or hook up a hoist, which i have an "I beam" above.... Do you brew on the ground? If so draining to the fermenter will be hard.



I wouldn't be brewing with it on the ground like a grainfather. The Guten mob themselves say that the handles aren't designed for lifting the whole unit when it is full of liquid and grain, and also say that the pump is not designed for pumping out the finished wort (?maybe just covering their asses against clogging the pump with hop matter?).

I had my 35L on a bench, and (in the words of Carl Barron) almost busted my pooper valve trying to lift the grain basket at chest height, due to a stuck sparge/grain bed. And I comfortably deadlift >130kg at the gym.....hence why I will be brewing on a small (knee height) platform with it from now on - high enough to drain through the tap. but low enough to lift the grain basket without destroying myself


----------



## Gout

goatchop41 said:


> I wouldn't be brewing with it on the ground like a grainfather. The Guten mob themselves say that the handles aren't designed for lifting the whole unit when it is full of liquid and grain, and also say that the pump is not designed for pumping out the finished wort (?maybe just covering their asses against clogging the pump with hop matter?).


I mean just lifting the malt pipe up onto its bracket to drain and sparge. I agree tho its going to be hard work so might consider a platform to have it brew just above the fermenter height.


----------



## rossbaker

Sounds like a milk crate might be the perfect platform...


----------



## nifty

Gout said:


> Nifty, i am reading the thread with interest, with the 50Lt unit and the malt pipe weight is there any risk the pipes false floor might give way when lifted?
> I am also worried as i planned to brew on a bench (lifting above shoulder height would be hard work) so i will need to consider lowering it to the floor or hook up a hoist, which i have an "I beam" above.... Do you brew on the ground? If so draining to the fermenter will be hard.



That's a good point about the grain/liquid weight pushing the base through but it seems pretty sturdy, the rolled lip on the bottom of the pipe is about 4mm wide and there is no flex in the perforated base. I just checked it and i dont think I could push the base through.
I have the unit on an adjustable aluminium work platform set at the lowest height, about 600mm. There was enough room for me to climb up on it to raise the malt pipe.


----------



## nifty

rossbaker said:


> Thanks nifty this is all really useful information. The 8l gap is significant, that is much more than the robo brew which is my only point of comparison. I wonder if that would affect its ability to produce a higher gravity single batch single batch (without having to increase the boil)? How have you found it other wise when brewing larger batches? Have you needed to use all elements for a rolling boil?



I've only done 3 batches and I'm still dialling in the numbers but the last batch I did was with 9kg grain mashed into 32 litres of water. After mash out, sparged with another 17ltr to end up with about 40ltr at 1.060. After a 90min boil I had 34ltr at 1.074. With the 6 program timer you can vary the boil/power times. I set it to boil at 3000w for 1 minute then dropped it back to 90min at 2600w. This maintained the boil easily.


----------



## Andy_27

How do you buy these on Alibaba? All the listings seem to have a minimum order of 50 units?


----------



## malt and barley blues

Andy_27 said:


> How do you buy these on Alibaba? All the listings seem to have a minimum order of 50 units?


Ignore that and ask for a price of a single unit.


----------



## nosco

So Beer Smith has done it again. Im brewing a pils and I am about 3lt over estimated pre boil! BS is giving me the shits so far.

Edit:I have been weighing my water. So they should be spot on.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> So Beer Smith has done it again. Im brewing a pils and I am about 3lt over estimated pre boil! BS is giving me the shits so far.
> 
> Edit:I have been weighing my water. So they should be spot on.


Make yourself a measuring stick nosco every 2 cm is 2 litres my 10 litre mark is just below 10 cm depending on your wattage you can work out your boil off rate, grain absorption is about 1.1 litres / kilo I actually use Brewers friend and it comes in pretty close on everything, even though it is still set to the BM calcs.


----------



## Gout

i just got a quote for the 50Lt version,
50Lt brewery $328 usd
chiller $48 usd
Hop spider $ 20 usd
delivery to melb $243 usd

seems like they have gone up a bit, using XE for exchange rate that's about $743 aud delivered


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Bulk buy would be the way to go, $189 US each 170 per container. Other than that try a bit of haggling, they are putting the price up close to what a importer / wholesaler would charge so still so still well under a retail price.


----------



## Gout

what have others paid delivered for the 50Lt? so i know what to aim for (granted even if its gone up a bit I'll most likely get one, just have the feeling they are putting up prices to get a feel for how high they can go before people shy away)


----------



## nifty

Gout said:


> what have others paid delivered for the 50Lt? so i know what to aim for (granted even if its gone up a bit I'll most likely get one, just have the feeling they are putting up prices to get a feel for how high they can go before people shy away)



I paid $685 delivered with the hop spider which i will probably never use, plus $200 for a 15amp power point. No chiller as i no chill.


----------



## Gout

thanks Niffy, i think what you paid sounds about right.... given the current increase i am considering passing or going for the smaller size or a robobrew. Dam shame because i think they would have done really well if they held their price.

I have asked if their prices have gone up and hopefully they can trend downwards otherwise i might pass


----------



## nosco

wide eyed and legless said:


> Make yourself a measuring stick nosco every 2 cm is 2 litres my 10 litre mark is just below 10 cm depending on your wattage you can work out your boil off rate, grain absorption is about 1.1 litres / kilo I actually use Brewers friend and it comes in pretty close on everything, even though it is still set to the BM calcs.



I have a stainless ruler so I can measure the volumes pretty accurately. Its the pre boil volumes that are the problem. Ive set the grain absorption to .8, the same as the GF so ill see if that helps. Its a bit hard to measure volumes while your sparging too. I cant really see if Im getting over volume.


----------



## goatchop41

nosco said:


> So Beer Smith has done it again. Im brewing a pils and I am about 3lt over estimated pre boil! BS is giving me the shits so far.
> 
> Edit:I have been weighing my water. So they should be spot on.



The same happened to me yesterday nosco.

Pre-boil aim was about 26.5L @ 1.045, I came out at 29L of 1.041 (gravity actually may have been accurate if the volumes had come out right, as online calcs told me that boiling down from 29L to 26.5L would have given me 1.045), so I just decided to boil longer (2 hours instead of 1) to account for it.
Unfortunately my boil off was more than expected (I had said about 2L/hr) and ended up with 22.5L post boil instead of 23.5L. Ended up with 2.6L left in the kettle after draining too, and I had only planned for 1.5L based on previous experience with my BIAB setup (had the helix, but lost suction once the wort drained to the level of the valve ).

Does a 3L/hr boil off at 2100W sound similar to what others are getting? I might drop it down to 2000W for the boil next time


----------



## nosco

My 7k would have been fine I think if it wasnt for the extra mash volume. The same think happened the next day with a 4.5kg pils. Both roughly 2hr boil @ 1900W. I might up it to 2000W. 1900W is not quite cutting it. I was checking gravity every 10 min or so.. In between learning beer smith and inconsistent brews (some have turned out as planned) I havnt really worked out my boil off rate.


----------



## bobbytheknife

Hey Lads,

I've got 3 of the 30ltr Guten's left to sell. Hit me up if you want one.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Magicalpancake

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Has anyone been able to get a filter working so the pump can be used for a cf chiller or even just pumping out?
> 
> The alternative might be to use the helix and pump from the tap then silicone hose back into the top while using a cf chiller. How do those KK mag drive pumps handle a bit of debris if it got through?



I've been messing around


----------



## wide eyed and legless

How did you plug the original pump outlet?


----------



## Magicalpancake

wide eyed and legless said:


> How did you plug the original pump outlet?



Extended one lead to the switch. May have to redo another lead coming from element to switch since it seems a bit stretched from turning the kettle (to line up with where the malt pipe used to be). Check out my Instagram I have a video of it on there running.

Waiting for an SSVR, rheostat, and some heatsinks from Auber in the states to work with an SSR and PID controller I picked up from inkbird brand to replace the control panel too. I'll do a whole video on it later.


----------



## patto

Finally had a chance to brew tonight, first time in five years!! Hit my pre and post boil gravity bang on so super happy!


----------



## Magicalpancake

patto said:


> Finally had a chance to brew tonight, first time in five years!! Hit my pre and post boil gravity bang on so super happy!



Nice. Did you use Beersmith or any type of program to figure out your volumes?


----------



## patto

Yeah, I use Beersmith. Here’s a shot of my equipment profile, maybe of use. 
Before brewing, I did a test boil to calculate the boil off at 1800 watts.


----------



## Leyther

Your boil off rate is much higher than most I've seen, usually set ~1.9 but I think yours is probably closer to what I have been seeing, I usually end up with high gravity and low volume so end up adding water later, will give it a go at 2.9 next brew.


----------



## Gout

Guten arrived woo hoo.

Not sure it matters but for anyone buying here are the details:

Placed the order on Oct 12th (7am AU time via paypal)
$396USD for the 52Lt brewery, hop spider and chiller
$224.10USD for delivery and 6% paypal charge

I used my credit card that does not charge conversion fees @1.292832 AUD to 1USD
delivered 23/10 (so 8 work days)

packed well, slight dint but nothing too bad (too hard to capture on the phone camera) and a slight crack in the controller plastic (dont think it will effect it)

looking forward to using it, once i set it up in beersmith.

its ohhh so shiny


----------



## malt junkie

Gout said:


> Guten arrived woo hoo.
> 
> Not sure it matters but for anyone buying here are the details:
> 
> Placed the order on Oct 12th (7am AU time via paypal)
> $396USD for the 52Lt brewery, hop spider and chiller
> $224.10USD for delivery and 6% paypal charge
> 
> I used my credit card that does not charge conversion fees @1.292832 AUD to 1USD
> delivered 23/10 (so 8 work days)
> 
> packed well, slight dint but nothing too bad (too hard to capture on the phone camera) and a slight crack in the controller plastic (dont think it will effect it)
> 
> looking forward to using it, once i set it up in brewsmith.
> 
> its ohhh so shiny


Looks a beauty, what of power requirements on the 52?


----------



## Gout

malt junkie said:


> Looks a beauty, what of power requirements on the 52?


It has a standard 10amp plug but can draw 3000W, i plan to just program it to a max of 2400W (seems most dont need that in mash or boil)


----------



## patto

Leyther said:


> Your boil off rate is much higher than most I've seen, usually set ~1.9 but I think yours is probably closer to what I have been seeing, I usually end up with high gravity and low volume so end up adding water later, will give it a go at 2.9 next brew.



Yeah, give it a go. What wattage do you boil at?


----------



## Leyther

patto said:


> Yeah, give it a go. What wattage do you boil at?



Usually 2000, on my last brew I didn't think that gave a great 'roll' so I was going to up it next time to 2100.


----------



## Gout

Does anyone have the 52Lt Guten with a beersmith profile (to use as a starting point)? I assume the dead space etc are different to the 30Lt version.

Might try a simple APA this weekend to get a feeling for the system. Its totally different to what i am used to (3 vessel herms).
Hopefully smaller volumes give greater control and allow more variety in my brewing (~25Lt batches to start with) added to a quicker clean up.


----------



## Magicalpancake

I ripped out the old controller and box for a PID, SSR, and SSVR. No reason really. The original controller works just fine. Just felt the need to rip it apart. 

The PID is a Inkbird brand and the SSR/SSVR is from Auber. I'll post up the schematic after I get it working good. 

The elements will be wired in parallel with a possible switch (still deciding). I found a neat way to mount the solid state relays but I need to borrow a Dremel.


----------



## nosco

I noticed SmartPid are selling a neat looking conversion kit. Keen to see how your mod turns out.


----------



## Gout

So the first brew with the guten went "ok". The main problem I had was chilling, the pump didn't have the grunt to push through the plate chiller with enough speed. At a guess it took about 40 min. It was a dribble
The boil was a tad soft untill it got half way through ( could hear the relay turning on and off) but otherwise it hit gravity (slightly above due to efficiency 25lt 1.051 at mash effect 83% (whatever than means)efficency aimed for 24lt and 1.048) was supprised with the 8 odd Lts under the mash tun volume. The printed volume marks are about 3 lt out (verified with weight and measuring jug)

All in all a much faster brew day, all cleaned up and packed away when normally it would be the next day. Once I get the chiller fixed up it should be much better.

If anyone knows some hose fixings that fit their stainless chiller that would be helpful

I will set a keg HLT to have the required water at temp in the morning so it's much smoother next time (hopefully saves the guten element for a longer life)

I even had time to measure pH when I would normally be running around mad with my 100lt 3 v system.

All in all, it's looking to be a winner

(Oh and the mash tube is very heavy when full of water+malt so that's will need to be looked at)


----------



## SnailAle

My biggest issue is that shitty little filter that attaches to the tap. Clogs up so quickly, going to have to replace it with something else before I smash the bloody thing!


----------



## Gout

SnailAle said:


> My biggest issue is that shitty little filter that attaches to the tap. Clogs up so quickly, going to have to replace it with something else before I smash the bloody thing!


There is another thread about a helix to replace it. Seems that's the go 

Does your boil switch on and off when boiling? Or is it in steady?


----------



## rossbaker

Gout said:


> So the first brew with the guten went "ok". The main problem I had was chilling, the pump didn't have the grunt to push through the plate chiller with enough speed. At a guess it took about 40 min. It was a dribble
> The boil was a tad soft untill it got half way through ( could hear the relay turning on and off) but otherwise it hit gravity (slightly above due to efficiency 25lt 1.051 at mash effect 83% (whatever than means)efficency aimed for 24lt and 1.048) was supprised with the 8 odd Lts under the mash tun volume. The printed volume marks are about 3 lt out (verified with weight and measuring jug)
> 
> All in all a much faster brew day, all cleaned up and packed away when normally it would be the next day. Once I get the chiller fixed up it should be much better.
> 
> If anyone knows some hose fixings that fit their stainless chiller that would be helpful
> 
> I will set a keg HLT to have the required water at temp in the morning so it's much smoother next time (hopefully saves the guten element for a longer life)
> 
> I even had time to measure pH when I would normally be running around mad with my 100lt 3 v system.
> 
> All in all, it's looking to be a winner
> 
> (Oh and the mash tube is very heavy when full of water+malt so that's will need to be looked at)


Great to hear your feedback on the 50l version Gout. Did your experience make you think the full 3000w might be necessary for a good boil if brewing something closer to a 40l batch? I had never thought of the possibility of limiting it to 2400w.


----------



## Gout

rossbaker said:


> Great to hear your feedback on the 50l version Gout. Did your experience make you think the full 3000w might be necessary for a good boil if brewing something closer to a 40l batch? I had never thought of the possibility of limiting it to 2400w.


I'm not entirely sure as mine was turning the boiler element on and off through the boil. It seems to be enough power to boil the odd 35lt at 2400w. I did run a test at 2600w and it didn't trip the fuse.

I'd like to keep it under its limit to try and ensure a longer life for the element. I was also happy to have the 50lt system even tho I only brewed 25lt as it gave headroom for a stress free brew


----------



## SnailAle

Gout said:


> There is another thread about a helix to replace it. Seems that's the go
> 
> Does your boil switch on and off when boiling? Or is it in steady?


Yeah it will get to the temp you set and turn off power till it drops a degree and kick back on again.


----------



## Gout

SnailAle said:


> Yeah it will get to the temp you set and turn off power till it drops a degree and kick back on again.


even on boil? eg above 100deg it says boil and it even then switches on and off? (i wish it would just stay on at this temp, then the programmable power output would be very helpfull, otherwise it just changes the duty cycle)


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

nosco said:


> I noticed SmartPid are selling a neat looking conversion kit. Keen to see how your mod turns out.



Have you used one of these SmartPID units? They look good, especially the retro fit one with all the bits make it fit easy.


----------



## nosco

Nah havnt used one. I looked last night. €129 or something which is about $200au so i doubt i ever will use one.


----------



## dibbz

BrewManiacEx / BrewManiacEsp8266 comes to mind but ssvr support would be required.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

nosco said:


> Nah havnt used one. I looked last night. €129 or something which is about $200au so i doubt i ever will use one.



I was thinking about getting it, then when the guten craps out I'll use it in a new home made single vessel. 

What I noticed with my guten controller was, like others have mentioned, during the steps, especially the boil, the timer stops when the temp drops. Luckily i was using my phone timer also. By the 60min actual boil time the guten was only reading 54min. Not a deal breaker but I just have to be aware. Next brew will just be full manual


----------



## nosco

Someone posted one on FB so ill see what they say. Notice i didnt say never [emoji6]


----------



## SnailAle

Have many people tried the manual settings when running it? I haven't tried yet. 

Misus and I just signed the paperwork on a new house today so my funds are drying up. But should be able to do one more brew before Xmas. Might try the manual settings for something different.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> Nah havnt used one. I looked last night. €129 or something which is about $200au so i doubt i ever will use one.


Have you got a pic nosco, we could have a look on Alibaba see what they have.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

SnailAle said:


> Have many people tried the manual settings when running it? I haven't tried yet.
> 
> Misus and I just signed the paperwork on a new house today so my funds are drying up. But should be able to do one more brew before Xmas. Might try the manual settings for something different.


I have tried the manual settings, English bitter is my choice so doesn't really require a step mash.


----------



## nosco

Direct from the smartpid store. I havnt really read up on the features but im a sucker for some more bling. The attraction for me is the easy install.

http://smartpid.com/store/#!/SmartP...one-retrofit-KIT/p/95169469/category=12201433


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> Direct from the smartpid store. I havnt really read up on the features but im a sucker for some more bling. The attraction for me is the easy install.
> 
> http://smartpid.com/store/#!/SmartP...one-retrofit-KIT/p/95169469/category=12201433


Would something like this suit.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=560


----------



## nosco

Probably would do the job very nicely. That would be manual control Im guessing?

The Smartpid has all the bells and whistles though. PID temp control, pump control (although I usually leave it on during the mash), step mashing, mobile phone control, hop timer,web interface and a future improved web interface with recipe input.

Luckily for me they are sold out  I was about to buy one even though I kept telling myself I dont really need one. The Guten is doing every thing I need it to for now. Ive done a few step mashes on lagers that have worked well. Theres plenty of other things I need to be concentrating on. Like cleaning the brewery/garage. So much crap in the way of my brewdays. I should wait to see what MP comes up with too.

Edit: Id need help to wire up a regular PID which was another bonus of the Smartpid.


----------



## nosco

So erm....what was that i said. "Dont really need it blah blah Guten does what i need it to blah blah blah". So they are back in stock. Dam you easy internet shopping [emoji6]


----------



## goatchop41

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> What I noticed with my guten controller was, like others have mentioned, during the steps, especially the boil, the timer stops when the temp drops. Luckily i was using my phone timer also. By the 60min actual boil time the guten was only reading 54min. Not a deal breaker but I just have to be aware. Next brew will just be full manual



To counteract this, you just need to play around with adjusting the temp reading (instructions on how to do so should have come with your unit)


----------



## Magicalpancake

Hey! Managed to get rid of that restrictive unserviceable ball valve with a shiny ss one. Turns out a 15mm Snaplid Clip fits the hex part of the ss ball valve perfectly to support it. Drilled a hole and ran soft washers both sides and a nut w/ a washer. The bottom I replaced with a heavier duty jubilee clip (hose clamp). Time will tell if the bottom will hold up - it's double the weight! In which case I'll just weld it up.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I wonder if we could buy those little mag drive pumps directly from them, did you notice if there is a manufacturers name on them Magical?


----------



## Magicalpancake

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wonder if we could buy those little mag drive pumps directly from them, did you notice if there is a manufacturers name on them Magical?



Didn't see but there is a serial number: 201609062

The current pump is a mag drive type, just smaller baby version of a chugger. It's a reliable design which I don't see failing anytime soon (under normal usage) and seems quite capable provided you don't send chunks through it


----------



## Magicalpancake

Actually tbh I have tried to intentionally break it by running it non stop during a boil in numerous brews. To my dismay it keeps going with no evidence of internal scoring (from heated plastic)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Thanks for that, just trawling through Alibaba at the moment, I suppose it would be easier to use your photo and put up a buying request.


----------



## Magicalpancake

wide eyed and legless said:


> Would something like this suit.
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=560



This is what I should have gotten as it does the same thing my ssvr does. It wasn't until I ordered I realized they had that other stuff!


----------



## Gout

Does anyones temp sit higher than the setting? I find fine was always on temp or higher ( on the display) I never measured it


----------



## Magicalpancake

Gout said:


> Does anyones temp sit higher than the setting? I find fine was always on temp or higher ( on the display) I never measured itView attachment 109716



Yes. The position of the sensor causes some discrepancy as the water directly above the heating element reads slightly higher. Try running the pump or stirring during strike and your temps will match the controller. I would recommend getting a temperature pen or something because the Guten isn't exactly known for accuracy! Calibration can be done using the + and - buttons pressed simultaneously to adjust (if it's off, but only verified by a calibrated source)


----------



## Gout

Magicalpancake said:


> Yes. The position of the sensor causes some discrepancy as the water directly above the heating element reads slightly higher. Try running the pump or stirring during strike and your temps will match the controller. I would recommend getting a temperature pen or something because the Guten isn't exactly known for accuracy! Calibration can be done using the + and - buttons pressed simultaneously to adjust (if it's off, but only verified by a calibrated source)


Oh I should have said that was in mash with the pump running. I agree I should get a temp reading to calibrate it


----------



## Magicalpancake

Gout said:


> Oh I should have said that was in mash with the pump running. I agree I should get a temp reading to calibrate it



Oh right. I find mash temp being overshot often times for me was caused by the element kicking on and off. Insulating the mash tun, running lower wattage (less duty), and recirculating fairly- not too quick- keeps it steady. If you've gotten over the shiny stainless, wrap it in cardboard and/or insulating material. I can keep a steady temp for 20-25 minutes with heat off!


----------



## Magicalpancake

Got a video up of the PID setup


----------



## Magicalpancake

So looks like after filling it to the top and tuning it, it seems to work alright. Turns off 5 degrees freedom units before the set mark and just lets it rise to where it needs to be (within half a degree F). I tried putting in settings I found on the information super highway initially but the overshoot was a bit much. I opted for the automatic tune function and seems to work okay. This took a couple hours though because the cardboard/foam kept the temperature from dropping. I'll do another one down the road with a brew session. 

In the mean time I'm sourcing parts for a sparge pipe that runs over the top of the mash that will work with the pump mod I did.


----------



## nosco

So after a bit of bs that was my own fault i finally installed a Smartpid into my Guten. I just have to learn how to use it now[emoji2]


----------



## nosco

Smartpid in the Guten. I might try and run a bead of silicone around the stainless panel to seal it. up


----------



## Magicalpancake

nosco said:


> So after a bit of bs that was my own fault i finally installed a Smartpid into my Guten. I just have to learn how to use it now[emoji2]



After looking at the parameters and interface, it seems they have a little way to go as far as user interface goes. Let us know how you get on with it, seems like a nice bit of kit


----------



## nosco

Ive only ever BIABed before so its all new to me. I manged to install it ok it but it wasnt as well explained as i thought it would be. The Youtube vid in Italian is the only resource out there although he did put out a wiring diagram last week. The interface doesnt bother me so far but the phone app seems a bit clunky.


----------



## nosco

I just finished putting on a sight glass. I havnt tested it yet. It was a bit of mucking around so i hope its ok. The only problem that i can see is that the thread diameter at the bottom of the 



sight glass housing is only about 1/4" which is going to restrict tje flow a bit.


----------



## nosco

Oops. More pics


----------



## Magicalpancake

nosco said:


> Oops. More picsView attachment 110117
> View attachment 110118



That is an awesome sightglass!


----------



## Black Devil Dog

The only problem I can see is that you're brewing with your pants on. 

I hope Cocko doesn't see that.


----------



## nosco

Its an aluminium housing sight glass. Stupid me had an all stainless one that i sold on here a few years ago because i was only doing biab.

Edit: i think you van get these on Alixpress?


----------



## nosco

I had a bit of trouble getting the sight glass to seal at the bottom of the glass. A few hours and a heap of plumbers tape later it was all sealed and working well except for a small leak through thermeometer outlet. No probs I taped up the nut but when I put it back in I twisted and cracked open the aliuminuim thread at the bottom of the sight glass and made a big unfixable leak. Not happy. Ive ordered a chrome plated one from iBrew. I think thats what I must have had before, not stainless.


----------



## Gout

Magicalpancake said:


> Oh right. I find mash temp being overshot often times for me was caused by the element kicking on and off. Insulating the mash tun, running lower wattage (less duty), and recirculating fairly- not too quick- keeps it steady. If you've gotten over the shiny stainless, wrap it in cardboard and/or insulating material. I can keep a steady temp for 20-25 minutes with heat off!


This brew I reduced the wattage on the heating element during mash to 600w and there was far less overshoot ~0.4deg so rather happy with that. Might lower it further next time.


----------



## nosco

nosco said:


> I had a bit of trouble getting the sight glass to seal at the bottom of the glass. A few hours and a heap of plumbers tape later it was all sealed and working well except for a small leak through thermeometer outlet. No probs I taped up the nut but when I put it back in I twisted and cracked open the aliuminuim thread at the bottom of the sight glass and made a big unfixable leak. Not happy. Ive ordered a chrome plated one from iBrew. I think thats what I must have had before, not stainless.



I took out the sight glass and re taped it and screwed it back in. Its working perfectly now but still put in the chrome one. At least I can test and learn the Smartpid now.


----------



## terragady

did you guys updated the beersmith profile or the one from few pages back works fine?


----------



## goatchop41

terragady said:


> did you guys updated the beersmith profile or the one from few pages back works fine?



I'd like to know if anyone has found any tweaks yet either.
I set it to MagicalPancake's profile, but have come out 1.5-2 litres above volume pre-boil both times. Not sure what part of the profile that I need to modify to account for that (maybe grain absorption?).


----------



## Gout

What size brewery? 30 or 50? Mine is hitting volume ok but strike temp is a few degrees high. (Only on my 3rd brew on it)


----------



## nosco

goatchop41 said:


> I'd like to know if anyone has found any tweaks yet either.
> I set it to MagicalPancake's profile, but have come out 1.5-2 litres above volume pre-boil both times. Not sure what part of the profile that I need to modify to account for that (maybe grain absorption?).


Yeah ive had the same trouble on my 30lt for the last 3 or 4 brews. I has to do a very extended boil to get it down to volume. At first it was perfect though. I didnt know if i changed something to cause it. I have since changed the grain absorbtion to the same as the GF (.9?) But i havnt had a chance to test it with my upgrades.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> I'd like to know if anyone has found any tweaks yet either.
> I set it to MagicalPancake's profile, but have come out 1.5-2 litres above volume pre-boil both times. Not sure what part of the profile that I need to modify to account for that (maybe grain absorption?).


Make a measuring stick and play around, the intensity of the boil may make a difference to the boil off rate, grain absorption should be around the 1 litre / kilo of grain, about 3 litres per hour boil off I have my wattage on 1500 to get a good boil going.


----------



## nosco

For anyone installing a Smartpid in their Guten follow the wiring diagram in the Klarstein retro fit PDF and not the wiring in the Youtube vid. Had me stumped


----------



## terragady

I think the grainfather absorption is around 0.6-0.7 and the beersmith default is 0.96. this will change your sparge volume which will result in less volume after all.
The boil off from different profiles is from 1.6 to 2.9 I can see, which is a big difference


----------



## Leyther

I tend to boil around 2000W in the 30L and I find I get a high boil off rate, a lot of my brews are coming in with high abv because of the high boil off rate, I think I have BS set to about 4L now but my last brew was the first one that came in under so maybe I need to drop the rate and boil power back. Still playing around with it at the moment although I'm probably not as scientific or organized as some on here, I did measure the dead space a while back which I think was about 2.5L based on my experiment.


----------



## terragady

4L seems to be quite much. 

How do you measure the dead space? Everything together with the pump and pipe what is under the lower mesh cover (bottom mesh cover?). Basically I do not think that it matters that much? Only for calculation of the mash in volume and grain ratio calculation - but there you will need to calculate also the empty space on the sides from malt pipe.


----------



## Magicalpancake

terragady said:


> 4L seems to be quite much.
> 
> How do you measure the dead space? Everything together with the pump and pipe what is under the lower mesh cover (bottom mesh cover?). Basically I do not think that it matters that much? Only for calculation of the mash in volume and grain ratio calculation - but there you will need to calculate also the empty space on the sides from malt pipe.



I always thought dead space was what was left over after being completely drained from the valve. I filled the kettle a little over the valve and drained it until it stopped. I poured the rest into a measuring cup. I have a diptube pick up now that leaves little behind. I will make a video later on this.

I installed a 12v fan for the relay/hint sink combo and mounted it awkwardly to the side (I'm sure there is a much better way to do this ) I wired it into the heater element switch (off an LED inverter of course)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

That is my interpretation of 'Dead Space', below the outlet, but it is a divided issue as some say it is what is under the grain basket.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> That is my interpretation of 'Dead Space', below the outlet, but it is a divided issue as some say it is what is under the grain basket.



Wouldn't it depend on what part of the process that you are referring to the 'dead space' in?
Eg. When looking at a mash tun and wanting to working out strike water volumes at a specific grain to liquor ratio, then the space under the false bottom would the 'dead space'. But when considering the boil kettle then the dead space would be under the outlet?


----------



## terragady

goatchop41 said:


> Wouldn't it depend on what part of the process that you are referring to the 'dead space' in?
> Eg. When looking at a mash tun and wanting to working out strike water volumes at a specific grain to liquor ratio, then the space under the false bottom would the 'dead space'. But when considering the boil kettle then the dead space would be under the outlet?



I would think exactly that what you said.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> Wouldn't it depend on what part of the process that you are referring to the 'dead space' in?
> Eg. When looking at a mash tun and wanting to working out strike water volumes at a specific grain to liquor ratio, then the space under the false bottom would the 'dead space'. But when considering the boil kettle then the dead space would be under the outlet?


Good question, but considering the wort is circulating throughout the mash that also changes the volume under the grain basket at any given time. It is noticeable that from initial mash in that the liquor level can build up on the top of the grain bed which will depend on the grains/ adjuncts in the mash and it is important not to let the flow be going through too slow. So to work out the strike volume I would be going with the volume above the outflow, as I do a no sparge it is something that I don't really consider,
maybe nosco can answer better now he has fitted a sight glass.


----------



## nosco

I'm yet to calibrate it. Hopefully tonight if the kids are being friendly.


----------



## nosco

Done. I hope I will never have to do that again. Back to the parenting thing for a while.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Nosco, what is the length of that sight glass? Cheeky peak have 2 sizes 280mm or 400mm. I'm thinking the 400 would be the right size but I'm not at home to check.


----------



## nosco

Iys the 400ml. I askes Cheeky Peak and they have the aluminium ones. I would highly recommend the chrome plated ones which you can get at iBrew. No affiliation of course


----------



## nosco

If anyones wondering the sight glass is not 1/2". A bit of 1/2" threaded tube slips right over the sheild if you screw the top cap off. But a 1/2" threaded valve does screw onto the cap thread. Its not a wobbly lose fit either. Its pretty tight. With a bit of tape its very snug and water tight. I havent tested this on a chrome sight glass though.


----------



## nosco

And dont take the glass out when you take the cap off. It wont go back in properly.


----------



## nosco

Does anyone else get this kind of staining over the element? This is after a perc clean and scrub. I guess its scale or something as citric or similar gets it off. Scrubbing with a hreen scrubby appears to get it off but the marks reappear when it dries.

It wouldnt bother me except it seems to be getting worse. This is where stuff sticks during/after a brew.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Have you any idea what it is nosco? I haven't had anything like that, when I have finished a brew I clean mine out with cold water, flushing it through the pump, and the bottom where there is some sugar residue I rub with whatever citrus fruit I have handy. The day before my next brew i put a few litres of water in heat it to 60 degrees C put in the perc and recirculate for 20 mins.(just in case anything has grown in the pump or pipework.)


----------



## nosco

No idea what it is. I comes off with citric so im guessing some kind of scale (is that the right word?) but i didn't think it would develope that quick. I give ot a scrub with a scrunby tonight and let it dry. Then ill use citric to see the difference.


----------



## nosco

I gave it a clean with a green scrubby and it came up as good a gold. I'll have a look in a few hours. Could it be from boiling perc? Occasionally i boil up the perc to use as a weed killer which is what i did on Sunday.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> I gave it a clean with a green scrubby and it came up as good a gold. I'll have a look in a few hours. Could it be from boiling perc? Occasionally i boil up the perc to use as a weed killer which is what i did on Sunday.




I don't get this either, could it be differences in water? Myself and WEAL probably have the same water source.

Perc as a weedkiller? never heard that before, how does that work?


----------



## nosco

Its the boiling water that kills the weeds not the perc. It cooks em instantly and no poison involved. It's good for killing path weeds en mass.
Im assuming that WEAL is in Melbourne some where which i think is pretty similar all over ie surface water. Im in Melbourne wester subs. Ill just need to keep an eye on my cleaning process to see when it happens again.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> Its the boiling water that kills the weeds not the perc. It cooks em instantly and no poison involved. It's good for killing path weeds en mass.
> Im assuming that WEAL is in Melbourne some where which i think is pretty similar all over ie surface water. Im in Melbourne wester subs. Ill just need to keep an eye on my cleaning process to see when it happens again.



Would it kill Kikuyu? most of my grass is Kik but its got into some of my raised boxes and I need to kill the fecker off before it takes control, hardy on the lawn but a B'stard to get rid of elsewhere.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Would it kill Kikuyu? most of my grass is Kik but its got into some of my raised boxes and I need to kill the fecker off before it takes control, hardy on the lawn but a B'stard to get rid of elsewhere.


Cover it over in the boxes with black plastic that will kill it. It is hard to get rid of in your lawn.


----------



## nosco

I reckon it would kill anything if you put enough on there. Probably plants too if it got too close to the roots. I only use it on mulched beds and paths.


----------



## Leyther

I have been unhappy with a few of my recent brews and I have never hit my beersmith estimates to date, hence with my kindle xmas present I downloaded 'Brewing Better Beer' by Gordon Strong, I know WEAL has referenced this a few times and its a different sort of book than palmer.

Anyway after reading a few sections I decided it was really time to stop 'winging it' and get to know my equipment better and hopefully be able to configure Beersmith accordingly and get better results. One thing I alway seem to have issues with is volumes, whilst we know the GUTEN has measurements they are known to be wrong, hence today I purchased a stainless steel rule and decided to measure volumes in CM's myself. Whist this is not exactly scientific and I understand temperature will affect these I think its a good starting point and better than I have now, hopefully these may help others too. I did a scientific measure of 1L (I weighed it!!) and then added 5L at time measureing the level on the rule with both the mash tun in and out. One thing I did do is ensure I had the helix connected up just as I would on brewday, with the TUN out I placed the rule inside the tun rails and into the recess at the bottom of the machine, with TUN in I just placed down the side of the tun and tried to ensure it was straight. Pics and results are attached.

Now onto something more interesting, whilst reading the book above I noted this comment from Strange 'Your measurements should be based on the amount of water in direct contact with the grain, not the total volume used. On my system, I measure the amount of water it takes to reach the top of the flase bottom and deduct that from my strike water calculations when determining mash thickness'. This got me thinking is this what we generally called dead space? dead space in the Guten is again something I've never really nailed down, if he's talking about dead space here then I have calculated this at approx 6.5L in the GUTEN which is way higher than I've seen in anyones equipment config, whilst doing these measuremeants I also measure the amount of water left in after draining through the tap with the Helix in and came up with 0.92L, which is lower than I've seen specified for dead space before. Can anyone enlighten me on how to accurately set dead space.

Hope you all had a great christmas.

Regards

Leyther


----------



## wide eyed and legless

And a happy new year to you Leyther. I would still be going for the outlet level as dead space, Strong doesn't (I believe recirculate on his rig) so the liquor coming into contact with the grain is all of it. Take off the 0.92 which you will lose and work from their, I think that the liquor expands by 4% around boiling point. If you calculate the loss to grain, I have found it to be just under 1 litre per kilo then you just have to calculate the loss to evaporation on your boil setting (wattage). I previously said my boil setting was 1,500 w but actually I should have said 2,000 w which is the setting I use throughout the process.


----------



## Gout

I just looked at my profile for the 50lt version and I have my dead space set to 8.9lt and like you I thought it was too much, but that's what I measured to the bottom of the screen. I also use 1lt tun loss.


----------



## malt junkie

Gout said:


> I just looked at my profile for the 50lt version and I have my dead space set to 8.9lt and like you I thought it was too much, but that's what I measured to the bottom of the screen. I also use 1lt tun loss.


Been meaning to ask a 50lt owner: what is the power hook up and element setup for the bigger unit?

cheers
MJ


----------



## Gout

malt junkie said:


> Been meaning to ask a 50lt owner: what is the power hook up and element setup for the bigger unit?
> 
> cheers
> MJ


If you mean what mains plug it's a 10amp plug ( but the max power 3000W will exceed that) however for me I set the power lower on the program so never been a problem.

There is only a single heater switch so I assume its a single element but it's all automated in its switching on off


----------



## Gout

Does anyone have the guten provided chiller? If so how did you fix hose fittings to them?

There was nothing at Bunnings (the stainless tube is too small) so went to Reece plumbing and they sold me a compression fitting but I can't flair the stainless, it seems too tough.


----------



## nosco

O got compression fittings of the net from China. They are self flairing.


----------



## Gout

Thanks nosco, sorry to be a pain but do you know the name of what I should be searching for?

Does it fit inside the tube and flair as you tighten it up?


----------



## nosco

Im pretty sure these are the ones I got. They were in my order history and I dont know why else I would get that size. They have weird naming in Alixpress. One of mine has a hairline crack in it which drips water which doesnt really matter as it hangs over the side. Im not sure if thats due to the quality of the fittngs or because I over tightened it. I didnt use plumbers tape when fitting them which might have made the difference. You fit them like this. Dont expect super fast chilling times with this chiller.


PS they are 3/8 so double check the size used for your chiller.


----------



## nosco

I put camlock fittings on mine. Probably over kill on a cheap unit like this but hey.


----------



## Coalminer

nosco said:


> No idea what it is. I comes off with citric so im guessing some kind of scale (is that the right word?) but i didn't think it would develope that quick. I give ot a scrub with a scrunby tonight and let it dry. Then ill use citric to see the difference.


Reply a bit late but anyhow, I get the same pattern on the base of a Grainfather sparge water urn and I have only ever used it to heat/boil filtered water


----------



## nosco

It could be in the water then. Its strange that it is in the same area that the crap sticks to after a brew. It hasnt re-appeared after the last brew but it will be back Im sure.


----------



## Gout

nosco said:


> I put camlock fittings on mine. Probably over kill on a cheap unit like this but hey. View attachment 111057


Thanks mate this is exactly what I was looking for. I will put cheap hose fittings on it to try and knock some of the heat out of it then use my plate chiller.

The pump does not seem happy trying to push through the chiller when it's so hot


----------



## Leyther

Gout said:


> Thanks mate this is exactly what I was looking for. I will put cheap hose fittings on it to try and knock some of the heat out of it then use my plate chiller.
> 
> The pump does not seem happy trying to push through the chiller when it's so hot


I got mine from Bunnings but it took a couple of different fittings, I'm not home at moment but can post a pic tomorrow


----------



## Gout

Would be good to see how you did it Leather, thanks


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I just used some clear pvc tubing I had laying around and attached it with hose clamps and put some standard hose fittings on the ends. I then water the lawn with the water, which is coming from my tank. 

To improve the cooling efficiency I give it a gentle stir with a sanitised spoon to keep the hot stuff moving across the SS tubing.


----------



## Leyther

I basically took it down to Bunnings and with a fella there we worked out the various different connectors required to get it to fit a garden hose


----------



## Gout

Did you have to braze/solder it? I can't do that so need to sick with compression style fittings. I did ask the guy at bunnings and he said too small go to Reece, even they were stumped. Any every person I showed asked what the hell is that, it it for a still..... Relax mate it's for home brew


----------



## Leyther

No not at all, they all just screw together, i just put ptfe tape on and tightened them up


----------



## Gout

Leyther said:


> No not at all, they all just screw together, i just put ptfe tape on and tightened them up


yours must be different to mine as mine is just a pipe with nothing to screw to. looking in your photo it looks like there is something soldered to the pipe where you have then screwed the brass fitting onto


----------



## Leyther

Yes it definitely has a thread, odd that they would sell something that needs welding


----------



## Gout

Just for anyone else, this is how mine came (sorry for the poor photo - it was just to remind me of the pipe size)


----------



## mattyh77

Take it to a plumber and get them to flare the ends. Flaring tools don't cost that much either.


----------



## Gout

i was worried stainless may not flare well like the soft copper. i have ordered the fittings nosco posted, they are the same price as reece charged me for one flare fitting


----------



## mattyh77

I've flared many a stainless brake line. As long as your careful, it's fine.


----------



## dibbz

Here's 47.6L boil in the 50L GUTEN, got a 40l batch. Required 2 hands to manage the hot break 













Guten 47.6l boil



__ dibbz
__ 11/2/18






My beersmith xml hitting efficiency and volume; https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-0ki1rn1kBBRvHsTsTYiibci4n00PAbn/view?usp=sharing

Used the volume markings on the tun for measurement, seems close enough for me, perhaps its improved since the older versions.

Used a hop spider and didn't bother with any hop filter, the tap is complete shit, I need to replace it.

Overall, happy with the first brew.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Not sure they had a problem with the volume markings on the 50 litre, what did you not like about the tap?


----------



## dibbz

Hard to close, to the point of flexing the skin to get it to stop dribbling. Cheap to replace with a nice tap anyway, no real feels about it.


----------



## Leyther

dibbz said:


> Hard to close, to the point of flexing the skin to get it to stop dribbling. Cheap to replace with a nice tap anyway, no real feels about it.



I find the tap fine on the 30L it has a lock mechanism on it that you need to pull up the clip thing before turning, assume the 50L is the same.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I haven't found a problem with the tap, did wonder if the lock may have been on, caught me out first time I used it.


----------



## nifty

wide eyed and legless said:


> Not sure they had a problem with the volume markings on the 50 litre, what did you not like about the tap?



The markings on my 50lt are out by a couple of litres. The tap is ok, though feels a bit cheap.


----------



## Gout

nosco said:


> Im pretty sure these are the ones I got. They were in my order history and I dont know why else I would get that size. They have weird naming in Alixpress. One of mine has a hairline crack in it which drips water which doesnt really matter as it hangs over the side. Im not sure if thats due to the quality of the fittngs or because I over tightened it. I didnt use plumbers tape when fitting them which might have made the difference. You fit them like this. Dont expect super fast chilling times with this chiller.
> 
> 
> PS they are 3/8 so double check the size used for your chiller.




Thanks very much, I finally got mine delivered and fixed to the pipe. I added some Teflon tape with in the fitting in the hope it would clot any small leak and it worked a treat. I just need to improve my hose fitting and it will be perfect


----------



## Gout

wide eyed and legless said:


> Not sure they had a problem with the volume markings on the 50 liter, what did you not like about the tap?



My volumes are way out on the 50Lt, i use a 5Lt measuring jug that i "calibrated" via weight. (way out i mean maybe 2Lt - i have not measured the error as i use the jug)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Gout said:


> My volumes are way out on the 50Lt, i use a 5Lt measuring jug that i "calibrated" via weight. (way out i mean maybe 2Lt - i have not measured the error as i use the jug)


Have you got the new or the old version Gout? Hop timer recipe memory etc.


----------



## Gout

It was new when I bought it, temp down to decimal. That said I'm not sure I have a hop timer. I always use it in manual mode


----------



## Leyther

Put a brew on today (LCPA Clone). 5.2kg Grain, chose the Beersmith BIAB Medium body setting. 31.1L water into machine which means you cant put the top on the mash tun but was ok just used the original filter out the top of the drain pipe. Beersmith predicted 27.94L pre boil and 10.927 plato, actual was 28L and 11.2 which is as close as I've managed to get it so far so all looking good. 60min boil, 10min mash out, used a hop basket today as I'm trying to get clearer beer as most of mine seem to be cloudy (I dont gelatine). Post boil, Beersmith estimated 26.05L I got 22.5!!! This was boiling at 2200W, big difference, has anyone else found this? thats giving me a boil off rate of ~5L/hour which is way higher than the 2.9L I had set. Post boil gravity was a little out but closer than usual, BS predicted 12.148, actual was 12.4.

Had a mare with the helix today as well, I assumed given I'd used a hop basket it would drain fine, it would hardly drain anything at all as was tons of break present, I think the hops directly in the boil might make it easier to drain as they clump with the break, I must admit initially I forgot to whirlpool but even after I did it was the same, ended up using a syphon and needed to add extra 2L of water to get the fermentor volume.

I had the Guten set at 68% brewhouse efficiency but based on todays brewing its beersmith calculates 62%, whats everyone else using for this?

Everytime I think I'm getting these settings better and closer I seem to go wrong somewhere, starting to peeve me now.


----------



## patto

Tried something different today. 
I usually don’t let wort flow down the overflow tube, so thought I’d just get rid of it. 
I joined the top and bottom plates together, sort of a double bottom for the malt pipe. Thinking that now I can stir the mash, if any small particles go through the first plate then the second will catch them. 
Worked pretty well and had nice flow though the grain bed. Overshot my estimated pre boil gravity by three points. Beersmith worked out 77% brewhouse effiency.


----------



## Leyther

That's not a bad idea especially if you're doing full volume no sparge as you can't get the top plate on anyway with something like 30l of water, 77% is way different from what I got, did you sparge?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Put a brew on today (LCPA Clone). 5.2kg Grain, chose the Beersmith BIAB Medium body setting. 31.1L water into machine which means you cant put the top on the mash tun but was ok just used the original filter out the top of the drain pipe. Beersmith predicted 27.94L pre boil and 10.927 plato, actual was 28L and 11.2 which is as close as I've managed to get it so far so all looking good. 60min boil, 10min mash out, used a hop basket today as I'm trying to get clearer beer as most of mine seem to be cloudy (I dont gelatine). Post boil, Beersmith estimated 26.05L I got 22.5!!! This was boiling at 2200W, big difference, has anyone else found this? thats giving me a boil off rate of ~5L/hour which is way higher than the 2.9L I had set. Post boil gravity was a little out but closer than usual, BS predicted 12.148, actual was 12.4.
> 
> Had a mare with the helix today as well, I assumed given I'd used a hop basket it would drain fine, it would hardly drain anything at all as was tons of break present, I think the hops directly in the boil might make it easier to drain as they clump with the break, I must admit initially I forgot to whirlpool but even after I did it was the same, ended up using a syphon and needed to add extra 2L of water to get the fermentor volume.
> 
> I had the Guten set at 68% brewhouse efficiency but based on todays brewing its beersmith calculates 62%, whats everyone else using for this?
> 
> Everytime I think I'm getting these settings better and closer I seem to go wrong somewhere, starting to peeve me now.


Leyther I lose about 6.5 litres on a 90 minute boil, that is with the hood on and it does boil pretty fiercely. What was your grain bill, I ask out of interest of the helix, I have had mine stuck twice both times when there is flaked corn in the mix so I put it down to gluten but I did a stout the other day with a lot of oatmeal and it was fine.


----------



## patto

Leyther said:


> That's not a bad idea especially if you're doing full volume no sparge as you can't get the top plate on anyway with something like 30l of water, 77% is way different from what I got, did you sparge?


Yeah, sparged 10 litres very gently.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> Leyther I lose about 6.5 litres on a 90 minute boil, that is with the hood on and it does boil pretty fiercely. What was your grain bill, I ask out of interest of the helix, I have had mine stuck twice both times when there is flaked corn in the mix so I put it down to gluten but I did a stout the other day with a lot of oatmeal and it was fine.


3.6kg golden promise
1kg Munich
270g each of wheat and carapils

So nothing out of the ordinary, I did notice there was a lot of hot break but the helix clogged almost instantly it stopped running before 0.5l was out


----------



## Gout

Maybe it's just the week of stuck mash/sparge as I had one also, a beer I have brewed many times. Mine was easily fixed with a good stir - ironically it's the first time I added some rice hulls, not that I would normally.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

When its happened to me I lift the end of the helix with my measuring stick and give it a bit of a shake that has fixed it, not on the first shake I have had to do it a couple of times, because you never whirl pooled as well could have been a problem.
When I am doing no sparge I fill up, to whatever is required put in the salt additions and when its coming up to dough in temperature run off a few litres add the grain and top back up. If your still putting the bazooka on the top of the overflow keep a close eye on the handle holes, that it doesn't overflow down there. Turn the tap down so the recirculating wort keeps steady then turn the tap back up gradually still keeping an eye on the handle holes, gets heavy to lift the basket out doesn't it


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> When its happened to me I lift the end of the helix with my measuring stick and give it a bit of a shake that has fixed it, not on the first shake I have had to do it a couple of times, because you never whirl pooled as well could have been a problem.
> When I am doing no sparge I fill up, to whatever is required put in the salt additions and when its coming up to dough in temperature run off a few litres add the grain and top back up. If your still putting the bazooka on the top of the overflow keep a close eye on the handle holes, that it doesn't overflow down there. Turn the tap down so the recirculating wort keeps steady then turn the tap back up gradually still keeping an eye on the handle holes, gets heavy to lift the basket out doesn't it




Yeah, I lost the basket yesterday, slipped out of the holes and I splashed some wort over the side but probably no more than 200ml, theres not a lot of room for error with the handle.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Hi Leyther, my last brew the helix blocked after alt 30 seconds of flow. I tried lifting it re-whirlpooling letting it settle then tried again, same thing. Then I put my plastic spoon in between the vessel wall and the helix to make it flex toward the middle. Then it drained clear in a couple of minutes.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Guineas Stout brew day no sparge (and not Guinness)
Volume as much as possible, up to the handle holes.



Start the boil under the hood.


A good vigorous boil


After the boil was over.


Helix does its thing.


----------



## Gout

brew day from HELL! not only did the pump get blocked, but the run off tap also.
I blew air back through the pipes in the hope it would clear it but i ended up having to "scoop"it out by hand with a measuring cup. lets hope it does not get infected but i wont be suppried if it does. I used the hop spider also so not sure why it happened.... not happy


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sounds like your due to lash out on the lauter helix Gout


----------



## Gout

wide eyed and legless said:


> Sounds like your due to lash out on the lauter helix Gout


I want, but my misses says no.... to be honest i snuck the brewery through to the keeper 
PM me a cost for the 50Lt and invoice me for x rated beer product


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Will do, you live close to my brother so I can save you postage costs.


----------



## dibbz

The bottom of my malt pipe flexed and the contents went into the kettle while lifting it out on the weekend. Only had 9.5kg of grain in it too.

While it was a bit messy I was able to recover by scooping it all out into the re-assembled malt pipe and pouring it all back through, also I hadn't yet sparged so the amount of wort wasn't crazy, still hit target volume and og 

Anyone else had this pleasure yet? I really don't feel I did anything to deserve that besides try to get the feet aligned when lifting it out, and that bottom filter is rather flimsy compared to the GF.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Never had it but then again I don't have the 50 litre, though I do 'no sparge' and it is full to the brim and bloody heavy, I have had the whole malt pipe fall through though when I pushed to hard on the top plate.


----------



## Duran

Hey looking into this system from Canada. Great writeups guys.

Would this Helix work? https://www.austinhomebrew.com/MattMill-LauterHelix-1000_p_7190.html


----------



## Scarabrew

Duran said:


> Hey looking into this system from Canada. Great writeups guys.
> 
> Would this Helix work? https://www.austinhomebrew.com/MattMill-LauterHelix-1000_p_7190.html


Hi Duran, it definitely will work. Somebody actually already did it. Check this out:


----------



## Duran

Thanks a bunch! looking into this system but it's a lot to dig through  Appreciate all the hard work and trials from everyone. 



Paiakan said:


> Hi Duran, it definitely will work. Somebody actually already did it. Check this out:


----------



## malt and barley blues

Anyone bought a Guten recently? A member of our club has sent off an email as a purchase order but has not had a reply as yet.


----------



## Leyther

malt and barley blues said:


> Anyone bought a Guten recently? A member of our club has sent off an email as a purchase order but has not had a reply as yet.



Not sure they are doing individual sales anymore, looks like KK might be looking to sell them so maybe they reluctant to engage direct


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I don't know if the negotiations with KK are stalling but if they do I will consider bringing in a container as a bulk buy. I would like the 50 litre, so if there is enough interest for either a 40 or 20 foot container, as they only have accreditation for EU will also have to check the legality of a bulk buy. But if we are buying as individuals it shouldn't be a problem. Will check when I get back.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

OK so a 20 foot container will fit 170 pieces of the 50 litre unit, it has the hop timer, recipe memory, and 8 function mash schedule. The price is $189 US and it is a 3 Kw unit which is variable. 
Landed price should come in around $300 Australian, I have a factory which is currently rented out but I am able to unload in the car park and the tenant says he will find some room at no cost.
Just have to check the legality of the units not being certified with Australia, though it is legal to buy and bring in electrical goods for ones own use without certification, just have to make sure a bulk buy covers this.


----------



## nosco

Count me in. I know a sparky who can hook it up for me. I know someone else who might be interested too


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I only wish I had waited for the 50 litre coming out, does give more scope though I rarely do more than 25 litre it helps when doing a no sparge to have the extra volume.


----------



## Abird89

Hi WEAL - can I just confirm is that 50L final volume? If note, how much wort do you get after a brew?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> Hi WEAL - can I just confirm is that 50L final volume? If note, how much wort do you get after a brew?


Don't know where I read it but I believe it is 45 litres, maybe those on this site who already have the 50 litre can enlighten us.


----------



## 620rossco

weal I might be interested as well.
I have two 15a circuits
Yeah probably about 45litres


----------



## wide eyed and legless

620rossco said:


> weal I might be interested as well.
> I have two 15a circuits
> Yeah probably about 45litres


No worries Rossco, one more question on the malt pipe is it still only 4 tabs spot welded to hold the weight while it drains?


----------



## malt and barley blues

Put me down for 1 WEAL (not for me, one of our members) I am happy with the 40 litre.


----------



## ibegood

WEAL

I'de be interested in one as well.


----------



## dibbz

50L does a 40L batch, 46.7L max for boil. Just 2 cubes with none to spare.


----------



## 2095brewer

I get 40L post boil. Ferment in a 50L Sanke keg and then rack to 2 corny kegs. End up pretty much full to the brim with 2x19= 38 L. 

Wrt the helix, I have had a hell of a time lately. I’m not sure if it’s a vacuum build up or something? I try and start slow and then after a while it just dries up. I have only had one successful transfer after about ten brews. That even includes lately using a hopspider. ‍


----------



## wide eyed and legless

2095brewer said:


> I get 40L post boil. Ferment in a 50L Sanke keg and then rack to 2 corny kegs. End up pretty much full to the brim with 2x19= 38 L.
> 
> Wrt the helix, I have had a hell of a time lately. I’m not sure if it’s a vacuum build up or something? I try and start slow and then after a while it just dries up. I have only had one successful transfer after about ten brews. That even includes lately using a hopspider. ‍


farsideofcrazy nailed it in a previous post, I have had a couple stall after chilling never when no chilling, I think it is an air lock inside the helix I got a fish slice and pressed it between the spirals and once it started to flow it just kept flowing.


----------



## lespaul

Can anyone tell me what the minimum brew size is in the 50lt? I mainly do a 20lt batch size but I like the option of being able to do double batches if I need.
Thanks


----------



## poacher

WEAL

I'm interested in one as well thanks.


----------



## awfulknauful

dibbz said:


> 50L does a 40L batch, 46.7L max for boil. Just 2 cubes with none to spare.


As well as lespaul I would like to know is a 20 liter batch doable?


----------



## 620rossco

yeah WEAL it is still 4 tabs, well at least it was when mine was made.


----------



## D3ft

I’m in for one WEAL. I’ve been thinking about a robobrew. But a 50L unit sounds much better


----------



## wide eyed and legless

620rossco said:


> yeah WEAL it is still 4 tabs, well at least it was when mine was made.


Well you have obviously had no problem with 4 tabs, I keep looking at the 4 tabs on mine and wonder if its going to support the weight when I initially lift the malt pipe.


----------



## 2095brewer

lespaul said:


> Can anyone tell me what the minimum brew size is in the 50lt? I mainly do a 20lt batch size but I like the option of being able to do double batches if I need.
> Thanks


I can’t see it being a problem. The heating element is in the bottom and you can vary the power output.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I doubt whether it will be a problem, there are a few on this forum who have the 50 litre so surely one of them has made a 20 to 25 litre brew.


----------



## sixfignig

I'm in at those prices.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

sixfignig said:


> I'm in at those prices.


Logging all the replies just in case the thread disappears or gets locked again.


----------



## sprucebruce42

1 for me please, will be worth the postage to QLD.


----------



## Jacura

Hi WEAL, I’m in for a 50l unit. Looking for an upgrade from my 35l


----------



## wide eyed and legless

On the list


----------



## AHB_Admin

wide eyed and legless said:


> Logging all the replies just in case the thread disappears or gets locked again.



Not planning on it disappearing. It's not being locked. Some posts have to be manually approved before they are seen.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

AHB_Admin said:


> Not planning on it disappearing. It's not being locked. Some posts have to be manually approved before they are seen.


Is this just for the GUTEN thread I don't see it happening elsewhere?


----------



## Leyther

I'm interested too well depending on the final price, I don't sparge any more so full boil in the current unit is pushing it to the limit


----------



## luggy

Interested price dependant


----------



## cliffo

I'm interested pending final price


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Costs see post 537 for approximate cost. Here is the price in UK and they can do a 23 litre brew.
http://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/brew-devil/312-50l-brew-devil-micro-brewery.html


----------



## cliffo

Definitely in then.

What time frame are we looking at?


----------



## Leyther

Does it need a special electricity circuit? If so I'll probably have to pass


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Does it need a special electricity circuit? If so I'll probably have to pass


You should have a 15 amp circuit in your house already Leyther and if you are only going to be doing half batches, and being able to adjust the wattage you would have no need to go over 2000w.


----------



## nosco

Got a mate who's interested so put me down for 2 WEAL. Cheers.


----------



## brettmc

I’m interested, add me as well thanks WEAL.


----------



## AHB_Admin

wide eyed and legless said:


> Is this just for the GUTEN thread I don't see it happening elsewhere?



Various threads.


----------



## Leyther

I brew in my garage, not sure what the circuit in there is but I can run the current one at 2500 with fridges and music also on it so might be ok.

I'm keen to do some larger batches and split them to play around with yeasts and hops.


----------



## nickxb

Interested in the 50L - final price dependent


----------



## Mikeyr

I'm interested in 50l thanks


----------



## ceptic

WEAL I'd be interested in a 50L to upgrade from my Fowlers Vacola


----------



## Jacura

What timeframe are you thinking WEAL?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Have sent email to manufacturers and awaiting reply, I wanted 170 buyers to fill the container, I can understand that a lot of people will be wary of buying direct, but buying direct through Alibaba gives us a guarantee to cover the warranty. But all of us who have bought before through Pay Pal have been well looked after by the manufacturer.


----------



## Jacura

wide eyed and legless said:


> Have sent email to manufacturers and awaiting reply, I wanted 170 buyers to fill the container, I can understand that a lot of people will be wary of buying direct, but buying direct through Alibaba gives us a guarantee to cover the warranty. But all of us who have bought before through Pay Pal have been well looked after by the manufacturer.



Happy with that.
Are you thinking weeks, 3 months or longer?


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

put me down on the list too! please and thanks!
how many people are in so far? and what suburb is the warehouse?
cheers WEAL


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Depends on what the reply is. I am willing to take up the slack, the unit is one of the best single vessel units on the market, huge seller in Europe and comes from the same stable as the Grainfather. There are plenty of people who took the chance and bought the unit on this forum even those who don't post, I have the Braumeister and the Guten and the Guten has a better boil, and a better efficiency.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nathanvonbeerenstein said:


> put me down on the list too! please and thanks!
> how many people are in so far? and what suburb is the warehouse?
> cheers WEAL


Moorabbin.


----------



## lespaul

Any thoughts on a smaller batch size (~23lt) and HSA when draining the malt pipe from a comparatively higher level?
Or thoughts on mash thickness with reduced grain at lower volumes? (actually, this is more for Braumeister where it recircs the other way. I'll just leave this question here in case im wrong)
And if either of these issues would have any perceivable effect on final product.

Thanks for the feedback on the 50lt being able to do 2 x 19lt kegs.
Just wouldn't mind getting feedback on a single batch in this model.

Thanks for the work already WEAL
And if I haven't said already, I'm interested.


----------



## Leyther

Q for those who own the 50L model, do you brew on the floor or on a workbench and how to do you drain from the machine? 

I currently (30L model) brew on my garage floor as it makes lifting the malt pipe out easier for me on my own, when the boil is complete I get my son or mrs to help me lift onto a workbench and then I drain into fermentor. 

With the 50L model there is going to be increase in weight in the mash tun and the machine after boil and I am wondering if this causes any issues, I'm thinking its going to be better to brew on the workbench to avoid lifting 40+L of wort. Given I'm not the tallest person to lift 10kg of mash out of a machine on a raised bench I'm going to need stepladders!!


----------



## goatchop41

lespaul said:


> Any thoughts on a smaller batch size (~23lt) and HSA when draining the malt pipe from a comparatively higher level?



HSA is relatively irrelevant here, as it is pre-boil. The boil should sufficiently deoxygenate the wort, and the time that will have passed will be inconsequential, given how little O2 would actually be introduced when draining the malt pipe/sparging


----------



## mashmaniac

hell put me down for one!


----------



## lespaul

goatchop41 said:


> HSA is relatively irrelevant here, as it is pre-boil. The boil should sufficiently deoxygenate the wort, and the time that will have passed will be inconsequential, given how little O2 would actually be introduced when draining the malt pipe/sparging


Thanks for the reply,
Sorry for my loose explanation, but I had read that if you were to pre-boil your water before you brew, not only does it drop chloro-somethings and other not desirable compounds out of solution, but it also deoxygenates the water. I was under the impression that all oxygen imparted in the water throughout the brew is cumulative, and will ultimately show up in the final product. Maybe I have this wrong.
Regardless I'd say your point is still super valid, and in the end has very little to do with brewing in a 50lt GUTEN, as there isn't much you could do about it anyway!

TLDR:
Still would love to hear feedback about single batches.

Thanks!


----------



## Hangover68

Put me down for interested, just got to get past the minister for war and finance but i think we will be good.


----------



## nifty

Leyther said:


> Q for those who own the 50L model, do you brew on the floor or on a workbench and how to do you drain from the machine?
> 
> I currently (30L model) brew on my garage floor as it makes lifting the malt pipe out easier for me on my own, when the boil is complete I get my son or mrs to help me lift onto a workbench and then I drain into fermentor.
> 
> With the 50L model there is going to be increase in weight in the mash tun and the machine after boil and I am wondering if this causes any issues, I'm thinking its going to be better to brew on the workbench to avoid lifting 40+L of wort. Given I'm not the tallest person to lift 10kg of mash out of a machine on a raised bench I'm going to need stepladders!!



I have the 50lt and brew on an adjustable height ladder thingy, something like this -







When it comes time to lift the malt pipe, I step up onto the bench and deadlift the lot. The ladder thingy is very sturdy. I wouldnt try to lift the full guten by the handles, they look to be only spot welded on.


----------



## Smokomark

Interested


----------



## lonte

Interested.


----------



## nosco

For anyone who is wondering about customer service. When i bought my 30lt it had a faulty pump straight out of the box. Its the same pump as the GF. I sent them a vid of the faulty pump not working and they sent me a pump no questions. I think they are keen to have a good rep for service in case it hurts sales. Maybe more in Australia as they dont have a supplier here.


----------



## lost at sea

i use a 40Lt crownie at the moment also sitting on one of those collapsable work stands above, for those wondering how to lift the larger malt pipe/bag ect without breaking your back. i use a boat trailer winch fixed to a wall trimmer in my garage, with a pulley fixed to a floor joist in the floor above my head (under house garage) i brew in the same spot everytime, works a treat, i got it on fleabay brand new less than $50. can lift the bag one handed lol.


----------



## v8manic

Hi guys.

I messaged them on Alibaba last night and got a reply this morning of they will not sell direct anymore and I should purchase from the new Australian Distributor.
Any Ideas of who this is as I'm interested in getting a 50L version.

Cheers Wade


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Yeah, got an email back today too, KegKing has got the contract to distribute over here.


----------



## v8manic

Any Idea on the Price they will be charging? Can't see the 50L on their website.


----------



## SBOB

does that mean group buy idea is dead?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

They will not be party to a bulk buy now they have a distributor in Australia, even if we had got the 170 buyers needed.


----------



## lost at sea

now i wonder who was pushing for the limiting of the access/visibility of this thread and its posts....


----------



## Leyther

Terrible news as I think I've just fried mine!! I was having trouble with the power switch it was blinking on and off so I eased out the switch to see if it was maybe a loose connection only id forgotten to turn off the power, the contact touched the machine shorteds out the house but now it won't turn on at all and neither will the pump which was working fine!! 

Any thoughts? do you think I've fried the PCB or maybe just the switch? I was thinking the switch would need replacing anyway


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Maybe just the switch Leyther, didn't Magicalpancake do something similar?


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> Maybe just the switch Leyther, didn't Magicalpancake do something similar?



Mine wasn't flicking back like that it was on but flashing and cutting in/out, just the PCB switch the pump was working fine but I shorted it on the body of the machine and now neither work.

I've just ordered a $3 replacement off ebay so will try replacing it first, if its blown the PCB I might look at the robo gen 3 given its cheap at KL at the moment but hopefully its just the switch ive blown.


----------



## lespaul

I wonder if keg king would be interested in a bulk buy? We order a similar amount and they can take their cut.
I was only interested in purchasing a GUTEN because the price was so good.


----------



## Abird89

Yep, sounds like powers at be were doing what they could to delay us until the distribution contract was sorted...
Might just go back to hunting for a 2nd hand BM at the right price


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> I wonder if keg king would be interested in a bulk buy? We order a similar amount and they can take their cut.
> I was only interested in purchasing a GUTEN because the price was so good.


Hard to beat the manufacturers price, always a good place to try and make a purchase, I don't think KK will be that interested in a BB but it never hurts to ask, best price would be wholesale, they have to get a return on their money.
I have been thinking of going to the China Brew & Beverage trade show in Shanghai in October, 900 exhibitors and there will be similar single vessel units on display but I haven't seen anything as good as the Guten on Alibaba.


Abird89 said:


> Yep, sounds like powers at be were doing what they could to delay us until the distribution contract was sorted...
> Might just go back to hunting for a 2nd hand BM at the right price


Doubt very much the lockdowns were anything to do with KK they aren't a sponsor on here so can't post or cause any mayhem, would be good if they did become a sponsor and did some Inkbird style giveaways.


----------



## goatchop41

Leyther said:


> Terrible news as I think I've just fried mine!! I was having trouble with the power switch it was blinking on and off so I eased out the switch to see if it was maybe a loose connection only id forgotten to turn off the power, the contact touched the machine shorteds out the house but now it won't turn on at all and neither will the pump which was working fine!!
> 
> Any thoughts? do you think I've fried the PCB or maybe just the switch? I was thinking the switch would need replacing anyway



Having seen a few of these sort of things happen now, (with similar circuit frying/melting issues that people are having with Robobrews), it's making me think that we Guten users should be providing plenty of air circulation underneath the unit during use, just like RB users are being recommended to do (eg. sit it on top of a milk crate instead of something solid)


----------



## Weizguy

wide eyed and legless said:


> <snipped> I don't think KK will be that interested in a BB but it never hurts to ask, best price would be wholesale, they have to get a return on their money.<snipped>


KK have been helpful when we have arranged BBs in the past. Certainly worth a try.
Please PM me if you go ahead with that option.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Weizguy said:


> KK have been helpful when we have arranged BBs in the past. Certainly worth a try.
> Please PM me if you go ahead with that option.


Will do, it would certainly be a good promotion to introduce the Guten at an introductory price, there are enough users on here to confirm it is an excellent unit.


----------



## PrizeFightinYeti

interested


----------



## Drewgong

interested x2


----------



## Beir Hearder

Interested by 3


----------



## lespaul

Was anyone getting in contact with Keg King? or can we stop with these "interested" posts?


----------



## dibbz

awfulknauful said:


> As well as lespaul I would like to know is a 20 liter batch doable?



I can't see any reason why not, if the wort needs to overflow you top up the mash with sparge water. The overflow pipe is 2 pieces I suspect for this reason.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> Was anyone getting in contact with Keg King? or can we stop with these "interested" posts?


The ball is in their court, they are keeping the name Guten I believe, it definitely would be a good promotion to do something on here but as they are not a sponsor it could be difficult.


----------



## Wingyan123

Hi friend, we are also producing similar equipment if you interested, but how do we have the contact?


----------



## Beir Hearder

Wingyan123 said:


> Hi friend, we are also producing similar equipment if you interested, but how do we have the contact?





wide eyed and legless said:


> The ball is in their court, they are keeping the name Guten I believe, it definitely would be a good promotion to do something on here but as they are not a sponsor it could be difficult.


Just heard from them that they are doing it so if there is a good introductory price it could make the scene quite interesting.


----------



## Beir Hearder

Wingyan123 said:


> Hi friend, we are also producing similar equipment if you interested, but how do we have the contact?


You could always try [email protected]


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Wingyan123 said:


> Hi friend, we are also producing similar equipment if you interested, but how do we have the contact?


I wouldn't mind having a butchers at what you are producing.


----------



## Wingyan123

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wouldn't mind having a butchers at what you are producing.


I knew that you are interested the 50liter microbrewery, and I recommend other equally good devices. If i have offended you, please pardon.
I want to share that i used the equipment to made good beer.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Wingyan123 said:


> I knew that you are interested the 50liter microbrewery, and I recommend other equally good devices. If i have offended you, please pardon.
> I want to share that i used the equipment to made good beer.


Can you put up photo's and specs?


----------



## mashmaniac

wide eyed and legless said:


> Can you put up photo's and specs?


Considering the guys last couple of posts, perhaps using aussie idioms ( "a butchers"), and shortening words is not the best path to clear and concise communication. I dares say the guy is using google translate to read the forum, in which case 'specs' are going to be glasses.


----------



## Wingyan123

wide eyed and legless said:


> Can you put up photo's and specs?


Certainly. Can you provide contact information such as email? I'll send you the details and photos.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

PM sent.


----------



## PrizeFightinYeti

Wingyan123 said:


> I knew that you are interested the 50liter microbrewery, and I recommend other equally good devices. If i have offended you, please pardon.
> I want to share that i used the equipment to made good beer.



PM'd


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Look like good units, would not be happy with the barb fitting on the re circulation pipe if it isn't held in place with a clamp then it is potentially dangerous, would be better with the stainless bend into the camlock. 9 steps is an overkill, but good you have got variable wattage. What is the pump like, same as Grainfather and Guten? The yellow one.
Also you may have missed the boat with the Guten being released here shortly.


----------



## f15h

I am on the interested list. I have one of the early (no pump) guten 35L. Pretty happy with it. Bigger can only be better


----------



## wide eyed and legless

f15h said:


> I am on the interested list. I have one of the early (no pump) guten 35L. Pretty happy with it. Bigger can only be better


KegKing are the Australian distributor.


----------



## Leyther

Just done a brew this morning and my efficiency has come in at 62.4% which is much lower than anticipated, whats evweryone else getting?

Also had a nightmare with the helix again, this was a super hoppy beer (> 200g hops) and because of that I actually used the hop spider for all but the FWH (20g Magnum), hence all that was in the machine FWH and the trub (6.2kg grain bill, 5kg GP, 1KG Munich, 200g Melanoidin), turned on the tap and it was a trickle immediately, ended up having to bend the helix in to get it to drain so I suspect I've ended up with a lot of trub in the fermentor :-( I have had great success at times with the helix and other times its been a nightmare, not sure why, the only thing I noticed today was that if I tightened the ubend fully the spring was angled upwards, hence I slackened it so it was angled down, wonder if this is causing some sort of air pressure issue, any thoughts?

I am still having trouble with volumes too, according to BS I should have got ~26L pre boil with a pre boil gravity of 15.098p, I ended up with ~27L and a gravity of just 13p, BS then estimates ~24L post boil and 16.86p and 21L into the fermentor, I estimate a pre boil of ~21L and got 15.2p and ~19.5L into the fermentor. I boiled at 2200w today, I currenlty have my boil off ratio in BS set to 4.2L/hr but I suspect its actually much higher than this, whats everyone else using for boil off ratio?

Just hope the beer turns out good, shit ton of hops to waste if its a dog!!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I thought I had posted before about the problem and how I got round it, I bought one of these.




I have no idea why it fails to drain apart from there being air in the helix, open the spring with the tip of the paddle let it flow and it will keep on flowing.


----------



## Leyther

I have one of those, its actually what I used to bend it in, didnt think about putting it into the spring, I'll try that should it happen again.


----------



## hotmelt

I think the first thing you should do before you mash in is to make sure there's no air trapped in the helix by running some of your strike water into a jug.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It really is a conundrum, I always treat my water together, before pouring off the excess, and even at the end of the boil I pour off a couple of jugs full and tip back into the kettle. It has only stuck a couple of times for me, and never on a no chill batch.


----------



## malt and barley blues

Had a look at Wings unit and looks pretty good, has anyone asked for a price, agree that the unit needs a bend coming off the camlock. Maybe a different thread is needed, and a name.
Bulk buy WEAL?


----------



## nosco

Can we het a look at these units any where?


----------



## malt and barley blues

nosco said:


> Can we het a look at these units any where?


See post 623.


----------



## nosco

KK have announced they are selling the Guten on FB and are apparently taking pre orders.


----------



## Leyther

nosco said:


> KK have announced they are selling the Guten on FB and are apparently taking pre orders.



Yes I think their price on the 30L is good ($380) but they asking $740 for the 50L which seems high to me, is it really $360 more kit than the 30L? I think not


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Material and component wise wouldn't be very near double the price, maybe a special price on the 30 litre.


----------



## cliffo

I was waiting for the next G&G sale to buy a 50L Braumeister but now I have to decide if one is worth 4.25x the price of a Guten.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have just thought, that price has certainly knocked my idea of selling mine second hand for $350, with no hop timer or recipe memory.


----------



## Abird89

Leyther said:


> Yes I think their price on the 30L is good ($380) but they asking $740 for the 50L which seems high to me, is it really $360 more kit than the 30L? I think not



Agreed, was hoping the 50L would be a bit cheaper than that.
Interested to see what their upgraded controller looks like.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> Agreed, was hoping the 50L would be a bit cheaper than that.
> Interested to see what their upgraded controller looks like.


Nothing wrong with a good haggle.


----------



## lost at sea

cliffo said:


> I was waiting for the next G&G sale to buy a 50L Braumeister but now I have to decide if one is worth 4.25x the price of a Guten.


im in the same boat as you, and ive decided the 50L brau is worth it over the other crap on the market, even if i get a 2nd hand BM50 ill be happier than a new knock off (guten/robo ect)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have to agree having both, though I do find the Guten gets better efficiency for some reason with a standard grain to water ratio and the BM gets better efficiency at a full mash volume If money is no problem and one is into brewing for the long haul then tick the BM box.


----------



## Abird89

G&G 10% off Braumeister sale just went up on facebook...


----------



## cliffo

Abird89 said:


> G&G 10% off Braumeister sale just went up on facebook


...and there's my trigger


----------



## lost at sea

cliffo said:


> ...and there's my trigger



i was just looking at prices online today, are you going the original 50 or the 50plus?


----------



## cliffo

lost at sea said:


> i was just looking at prices online today, are you going the original 50 or the 50plus?



The original. I don't see the value in the plus. Would rather use an immersion chiller.

Of course in still debating which way I go between the Guten and BM. Leaning towards the BM though.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

cliffo said:


> The original. I don't see the value in the plus. Would rather use an immersion chiller.
> 
> Of course in still debating which way I go between the Guten and BM. Leaning towards the BM though.


I doubt very much the Guten 50 litre price is set in concrete, going by what was previously said in the difference in a 30 and 50 litre seems to extreme, really want a 50 litre unit but will definitely haggle strongly on the price, around the $600 would seem a more fair price.


----------



## lost at sea

y


cliffo said:


> The original. I don't see the value in the plus. Would rather use an immersion chiller.
> 
> Of course in still debating which way I go between the Guten and BM. Leaning towards the BM though.



yep i thought the same, a few months ago there was a flurry of BMs for sale on here, now none.....ill do a few more cashies and buy a new one next year i think when G&G has a discount


----------



## cliffo

I just pulled the trigger on a 50L BM and accessories.

Couldn't resist at the current price and it will be the long term system for me now.


----------



## lost at sea

cliffo said:


> I just pulled the trigger on a 50L BM and accessories.
> 
> Couldn't resist at the current price and it will be the long term system for me now.



lucky bugger, what system are you currently brewing on?


----------



## cliffo

lost at sea said:


> what system are you currently brewing on?



Been using a Robobrew v2 for the past 2 1/2 years.

Has worked without issue but am looking forward to returning to brewing on a BM.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

cliffo said:


> I just pulled the trigger on a 50L BM and accessories.
> 
> Couldn't resist at the current price and it will be the long term system for me now.


You won't regret it.


----------



## cliffo

wide eyed and legless said:


> You won't regret it.



Had a 50L BM a few years ago before I sold it so know what to expect and am very much looking forward to being back brewing on one.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Did a double batch Sunday, both identical grain, both identical water amounts and treatment, was actually surprised at the outcome. 


Were off with the mash.



To be fair kept the level below the overflow though I don't believe it makes any difference.


The boil.
Interestingly the pre boil gravity were both exactly the same. Final gravity the BM which lagged behind the boil of the Guten came out at 1,051 and the Guten 1,048. theoretically should both have been the same


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Nothing to do with the head to head but ferment started within 5 hours. Daisy chained the fermenters to the secondary's, purging the secondary's of any oxygen before applying a little pressure.


----------



## Dubzie

wide eyed and legless said:


> Nothing to do with the head to head but ferment started within 5 hours. Daisy chained the fermenters to the secondary's, purging the secondary's of any oxygen before applying a little pressure.
> View attachment 113303
> View attachment 113304


OT question, how easy/hard is it to clean the cubes?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Real easy, just a soak in sodium perborate / percarbonate, which ever you use.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> The boil.
> Interestingly the pre boil gravity were both exactly the same. Final gravity the BM which lagged behind the boil of the Guten came out at 1,051 and the Guten 1,048. theoretically should both have been the same



My last few brews have been full volume mash in the Guten and my efficiency has suffered a lot, my last brew was supposed to be a 7.2% IPA that's come in at 4.9%, a nice beer but I'm now calling it a 'session IPA'  that was from a 6.2kg grain bill so I should have got more than that. I'm going to go back to sparging with ~6kg mash and ~30L of water the recirc pipe ends up in the grain bed and its just not extracting enough sugars, with lower volume of water I can hopefully get the top plate on and have the water flow better over the grain. My first few brews with the Guten when I did sparging I ended up the other way with too high gravity but I suspect that was boil off rate I had wrong in BS.

Never a dull moment in this game, always something new to try.


----------



## goatchop41

Leyther said:


> with ~6kg mash and ~30L of water the recirc pipe ends up in the grain bed and its just not extracting enough sugars, with lower volume of water I can hopefully get the top plate on and have the water flow better over the grain.



You could just use a bit of silicone hosing over the end of the recirc pipe to extend it, that will let you keep the wort flowing through the grain and not throught the pipe. If you get the right size of silicone tubing, you can still get the top screen on too


----------



## Leyther

goatchop41 said:


> You could just use a bit of silicone hosing over the end of the recirc pipe to extend it, that will let you keep the wort flowing through the grain and not throught the pipe. If you get the right size of silicone tubing, you can still get the top screen on too


I already use a pipe but with 30l and 6kg it's almost at the overflow holes in the mash tun, I try and get the pipe to run around the outside but when it's warm it tends to sink,I don't think I could get the top screen on given I've got the bazooka over the central
overflow too.

It's not a big issue going back to sparging it's just a pain with weare treatments as it's easier to do with the full volume but I'll just have to do the full volume then take some out before I mash in, I think that's going to give me the better efficiency I am looking for.

Next brew I'll find out!!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> I already use a pipe but with 30l and 6kg it's almost at the overflow holes in the mash tun, I try and get the pipe to run around the outside but when it's warm it tends to sink,I don't think I could get the top screen on given I've got the bazooka over the central
> overflow too.
> 
> It's not a big issue going back to sparging it's just a pain with weare treatments as it's easier to do with the full volume but I'll just have to do the full volume then take some out before I mash in, I think that's going to give me the better efficiency I am looking for.
> 
> Next brew I'll find out!!


What you could try Leyther is a 90 minute mashtime, also do you crush your own grain?


----------



## goatchop41

Leyther said:


> I'll just have to do the full volume then take some out before I mash in



This is exactly what I do. Makes the water treatment easier, plus the sparge water has a bit of warmth left in it when the time comes to use it


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> What you could try Leyther is a 90 minute mashtime, also do you crush your own grain?



Yes I do, Ive tried adjusting the crush size in the last 2 brews and still same result, went larger then smaller than I've been using previously.

I could try a longer mashtime but adding extra time to my brewday wouldn't go down too well with SWMBO although its probably no longer than the sparge time will take, maybe I'll give that a go.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I also do the same as goatchop total water and add salts, reduce by about 4 litres depending on grain bill, mash in, add some water back into kettle, I don't think it makes a lot of difference whether some wort goes down the overflow, if it is a concern then some silicone over the overflow pipe will stop that. 
When Palmer talks about full volume mash he states how much more grain to put in but I think the sum of the amount of grain extra would be for a static mash not recirculating I have added 3 or 400 gram of malt extra and gone over the expected OG.


----------



## Beir Hearder

Anybody heard if Guten units will ever make it here?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Beir Hearder said:


> Anybody heard if Guten units will ever make it here?


Already here, sitting on the dock, hopefully in the warehouse early next week.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> Already here, sitting on the dock, hopefully in the warehouse early next week.



Yeah, rang them this week and they were hopeful of it happening next week


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Was thinking of doing a Guten v Robobrew G3 thread, but I will wait and see if any alterations have been made for the Guten. If not I think it would be a case of Gute Nacht Irene, for the Robobrew.


----------



## Frangalooma

When and where are these being released in Australia ? Would you recommend over robo? If so what's better about it?


----------



## Drowro

I asked about the Robo v3 50 ltr version that could complete with the Braumiester 50ltr is due out from the supplier and have been advised it will come out 2 months from now. I asked iMake if Grain Father would bring out a 50 ltr version and they have no plans at all....

Looks like a Braumiester 50 now or wait until the Robo v3 50ltr comes out.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Nothing on the market to compete with the BM, good deal going here. $2000 is a good price.
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/50l-brau-for-sale-brisbane-2300.98996/#post-1517047


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> Nothing on the market to compete with the BM, good deal going here. $2000 is a good price.
> https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/50l-brau-for-sale-brisbane-2300.98996/#post-1517047



Would probably jump on that if he was in Sydney and I could drive over to get it...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> Would probably jump on that if he was in Sydney and I could drive over to get it...


Shouldn't cost to much for transport costs.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Frangalooma said:


> When and where are these being released in Australia ? Would you recommend over robo? If so what's better about it?


Read some of the reviews on the Robobrew 3 and read this thread.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> Shouldn't cost to much for transport costs.



It's more buying something second hand that I can't view prior to handing over the cash.. and the logistics of sending the cash over

Anyway... should get my 50L guten in the next few weeks


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> Anyway... should get my 50L guten in the next few weeks


Are they in yet ? Don't forget to haggle.


----------



## Frangalooma

I spoke to keg king today. They told me the 30l model actually holds 40l. Can anybody verify this?


----------



## Frangalooma

What's the biggest grain bill you can fit in the 30?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The Guten are now in stock at KK will be going down to get my 50 litre, and they are the latest model, not so bothered about the 9 steps, and hop timer, recipe memory will be useful. Looking forward to actually doing a full volume mash, usually have to sparge with the last 3 or 4 litres. Ripper.


----------



## Beir Hearder

wide eyed and legless said:


> The Guten are now in stock at KK will be going down to get my 50 litre, and they are the latest model, not so bothered about the 9 steps, and hop timer, recipe memory will be useful. Looking forward to actually doing a full volume mash, usually have to sparge with the last 3 or 4 litres. Ripper.


Looking forward to hear how people go with them. I know they have a great following in Europe.


----------



## kalbarluke

wide eyed and legless said:


> The Guten are now in stock at KK will be going down to get my 50 litre, and they are the latest model, not so bothered about the 9 steps, and hop timer, recipe memory will be useful. Looking forward to actually doing a full volume mash, usually have to sparge with the last 3 or 4 litres. Ripper.


I looked at the Keg King website. Nothing is being advertised yet. Has anyone seen a link re: pricing?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kalbarluke said:


> I looked at the Keg King website. Nothing is being advertised yet. Has anyone seen a link re: pricing?


Prices are up $380 for the 35/40 litre and I think $740 for the 50 litre


----------



## Leyther

Frangalooma said:


> I spoke to keg king today. They told me the 30l model actually holds 40l. Can anybody verify this?



It might hold 40L of water with nothing else but when you put your grain in it then 30L is about as much water you will get in without it overflowing the mash tun. If you need 40L then you will need the 50L.


----------



## Leyther

Frangalooma said:


> What's the biggest grain bill you can fit in the 30?



I would say 6-7kg is max and you will need to sparge at that size.


----------



## Frangalooma

Leyther said:


> I would say 6-7kg is max and you will need to sparge at that size.


I've researched a bit and seen guys mash 8.5 kg in them on YouTube. Mashed into 20l. Then sparged to basically fill it to 37 l.


----------



## Leyther

Frangalooma said:


> I've researched a bit and seen guys mash 8.5 kg in them on YouTube. Mashed into 20l. Then sparged to basically fill it to 37 l.



Was that with the top plate in place?

With 20L that might be doable but you would defo need to sparge, 6kg and 30L is about max for full volume.


----------



## nickxb

Interested in the 50L. Im not a fan of using hop spiders so ideally would like to free hop. Does the Guten have a filter or a false bottom stopping hop material getting into the pump? If not, how are others solving this?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

You can't run the pump after you've done the mash


----------



## jibba02

Can't wait to try out this puppy!


----------



## Frangalooma

nickxb said:


> Interested in the 50L. Im not a fan of using hop spiders so ideally would like to free hop. Does the Guten have a filter or a false bottom stopping hop material getting into the pump? If not, how are others solving this?


You can rig a helix that does what you want


----------



## awfulknauful

nickxb said:


> Interested in the 50L. Im not a fan of using hop spiders so ideally would like to free hop. Does the Guten have a filter or a false bottom stopping hop material getting into the pump? If not, how are others solving this?


I use the helix I got off WEAL works great only ever stuck once, just used a blade to open the coil.


----------



## nickxb

Awesome thanks for the info. So to clarify, the helix would attach to the tap and I would have to use a second pump if I need to move the wort across to a FV.


----------



## Silverfox

Been looking at getting a RB3 until I found out about these. Very tempted as the 40L on KK is $380 and there is a free shipping option showing for me.

I noticed the RB3 has a false bottom but the Guten doesnt, is there any dis/advantage to this?

Can the pump be used to pump through the chiller to the FV?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nickxb said:


> Awesome thanks for the info. So to clarify, the helix would attach to the tap and I would have to use a second pump if I need to move the wort across to a FV.


Nick you could use a second pump as long as you can prime it, or just gravity feed into you FV


----------



## Abird89

So there now saying the smaller one is 40L, larger 50L as originally stated.
Where’s the value in buying the larger one?? 10L more for twice the price...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The 50 litre does a maximum boil of 46.7 litres according to dibbz.
I do a full mash in the 40 litre so with about a 3 litre sparge I can end up with 23 litres in the fermenter.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> The 50 litre does a maximum boil of 46.7 litres according to dibbz.
> I do a full mash in the 40 litre so with about a 3 litre sparge I can end up with 23 litres in the fermenter.



So 47L minus kettle losses and then fermented losses should still get me my 2 cornies filled then!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> So 47L minus kettle losses and then fermented losses should still get me my 2 cornies filled then!


I loose about 5 litres per hour. and do a 90 minute boil, so yes that should be about right.


----------



## Quokka42

So tempted by the 30l - $380.00, 8kg grain bill, built in pump and ball valve to regulate it, programmable steps including power, and can remember recipes...

But I just finished getting my kit together to recirculate wort (keep mash temps even) and sparge and have the materials to add a HLT (faster step changes, and proper sparge,) so I'll resist.

If I hadn't just spent a packet on my son's High School though...


----------



## Frangalooma

Is it safe to recirculate boiling wort through the pump? Would want to circulate hot wort through the chiller while it's sumberged in ice then back to the unit till it's at pitching temp.


----------



## Leyther

Silverfox said:


> Been looking at getting a RB3 until I found out about these. Very tempted as the 40L on KK is $380 and there is a free shipping option showing for me.
> 
> I noticed the RB3 has a false bottom but the Guten doesnt, is there any dis/advantage to this?
> 
> Can the pump be used to pump through the chiller to the FV?




The Guten does have a false bottom also, in the Guten the mash tun has a lip on the bottom that holds the removable false bottom in place, this holds the grain in place, not sure about the RB but I suspect its very similar.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> The Guten does have a false bottom also, in the Guten the mash tun has a lip on the bottom that holds the removable false bottom in place, this holds the grain in place, not sure about the RB but I suspect its very similar.


The Robobrew 3 has 2 filter plates in the grain pipe and a 3 legged false bottom which only sits on 2 of the 3 legs. The only reason I can see for this must be the quality of the pump maybe blocking when a piece of grain gets in there, something I never had on the Guten touch wood, would hate to be emptying clearing the blockage and refiling again.


----------



## Leyther

Maybe I'm confusing the filter plates with a false bottom I thought they were the same thing.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> The Robobrew 3 has 2 filter plates in the grain pipe and a 3 legged false bottom which only sits on 2 of the 3 legs. The only reason I can see for this must be the quality of the pump maybe blocking when a piece of grain gets in there, something I never had on the Guten touch wood, would hate to be emptying clearing the blockage and refiling again.



I've got a V2 and never had an issue with the pump blocking


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> I've got a V2 and never had an issue with the pump blocking


That's why I would like some of the G3 owners to chip in, a couple have mentioned blocked pumps, cant see the need for 3 filters.


----------



## Abird89

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered the 50L. Will run it along side my Robobrew on brew days. 2 kegs of a standard ale and probably 1 keg of something funky to try.
Hopefully it arrives mid next week so I can fire it up on the weekend!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I'll have to go and get mine before they are all gone.


----------



## dibbz

So the solution to the flimsy bottom screen falling through is to use a shifter (or similar) to bend the rolled lip out a touch so when you do get some flex the screen doesn't liberate itself from the malt pipe. 

https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/2084945


----------



## wide eyed and legless

dibbz said:


> So the solution to the flimsy bottom screen falling through is to use a shifter (or similar) to bend the rolled lip out a touch so when you do get some flex the screen doesn't liberate itself from the malt pipe.
> 
> https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/2084945


Hey dibbz what would you say the weight of your saturated grain would be in the 50 litre, I know its bloody heavy when I have done close to a full volume mash in the 35 litre, always concerned about those little spot welded toggles on the side holding the weight.


----------



## dibbz

And I stand on an esky as the guten is on some bricks, so I can drain into cubes from the tap.

It's too heavy when it's full so I hold it up for a few minutes and let some drain through before fully withdrawing the pipe, my heart is pumping every time  hopcat seem to have had extra lugs half way so you can let it drain before getting it all out.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I like the Hopcat idea, apparently the company who manufacture (all the names) are pretty flexible on the needs of customers.


----------



## dibbz

I could probably just let some wort out into a 19l pot to allow the malt pipe to drain before removing it tbh, less effort.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Frangalooma said:


> Is it safe to recirculate boiling wort through the pump? Would want to circulate hot wort through the chiller while it's sumberged in ice then back to the unit till it's at pitching temp.


No, any of those pumps it is not a good idea to pump boiling or near boiling wort can damage the pump.


----------



## altone

Does anyone have any idea how long the "introductory" price will last at Keg King? 
I'm so damned tempted to buy one but will have to sell some stuff first to fund it.

Looking at the 40l as it's more than I need right now. I usually try to make cube sized brews.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

altone said:


> Does anyone have any idea how long the "introductory" price will last at Keg King?
> I'm so damned tempted to buy one but will have to sell some stuff first to fund it.
> 
> Looking at the 40l as it's more than I need right now. I usually try to make cube sized brews.


I presume it will be on this initial delivery, not to big a markup on the prices we got for the BB. put a deposit on mine today, they sold 2 while I was in there.


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> I presume it will be on this initial delivery, not to big a markup on the prices we got for the BB. put a deposit on mine today, they sold 2 while I was in there.



I can understand why,
I might not manage the special intro price - hopefully they'll keep selling them at a similar if slightly higher price for a good while.
The programming on the Guten sounds more intuitive to me (vs Robobrew) - although I've never actually seen a Guten in action.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Actually I was a little surprised when I was reading the manual today, it has got the hop timer, and the recipe memory but from what I read it also has the alarm when a phase has finished which is good. Being used to the BM that marks time from end of mash to boil mode until you are there to enter the boil mode. My present Guten goes straight from mash and ramps up for boiling, but now it looks like the new one emits an alarm before going into boil by manually giving it the OK for the boil. It was only a quick read so maybe a new owner could enlighten us.


----------



## wide eyed and legless




----------



## Wolfman1

Intriguing and slightly repulsing...


----------



## Wobbly74

Out of interest, does the guten user a pid algorithm for temperature control like the grainfather or simple hysteresis?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Hysteresis, but if anyone wanted to change the set up here is a video of Magical pancake's modification.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Is there a Facebook group for the Guten users like the is for the RB's?
(Couldn't find the search within thread button)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Not a Facebook user but here is a link to it under its many different names.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...9i57j69i64.14610j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## Beir Hearder

3GumsBrewing said:


> Is there a Facebook group for the Guten users like the is for the RB's?
> (Couldn't find the search within thread button)


If there is not then one should be set up. Seems to be a lot of interest now.


----------



## TwoCrows

If KegKing are retailing , maybe it would be fortuitous for them to get the ball rolling.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Found and joined these two, both are pretty active.

Hoping my Guten ships this week!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1324257024320596/
and
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1926868814207974/


----------



## Abird89

Just received my 50L Guten from Keg King. Upgrading from a Robobrew V2
On first inspection very impressed:
- the stainless is very shiny, mirror shiny infact 
- malt pipe has a rolled edge (my v2 has cut me many times)
- bottoms and top plates on malt pipe aren’t sharp either. Both plates look nice and flat
- the lid actually fits snugly on top 
- the immersion coil is nice and large, noticeably bigger than v2. Coils are also spread out
- bazooka screen looks flimsy, but I’ll be attached my lauter helix spring coil anyway 
- only negative is a few light rust spots on the seam of malt pipe and under the ring where malt pipe sits on while sparging

It’s currently undergoing a sodium perc soak
Now I’ve just gotta find some free time to actually brew on it!

Anyone have brewing profiles for the 50L set up?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have been having a few ideas for the Robobrew G2, I bought a rooted one fromm KK a few months ago hoping to fix it. Not really got around to it until last week, control panel had shit itself beyond repair but I have had an idea.
When I got my Guten I ordered a spare control panel and pump, just in case as I was walking in unknown territory. 
Here is the difference between the Guten and the Robobrew.

The top is the Guten control circuit, notice the difference in the size of the relays, 3 times the the rating where the Robobrew is just enough no wonder they have had a lot of burn outs.
This is the soldering on the back.

The Guten is the one on the right just look at the difference in the soldering.
What I was thinking is, these units I imagine are out sourced, if I can find them on Alibaba, switch them over we could have a hybrid. The mounting space will have to be opened up but it looks like a good little project.


----------



## goatchop41

Abird89 said:


> Anyone have brewing profiles for the 50L set up?



Check the Ace microbrewery pages on FB, there's a profile on one of them


----------



## Wobbly74

I think if I were looking at a stuffed RB I'd end up using an external control box and craftbeerpi. Or alternatively something like the grainfather connect, or a smartpid. All will give you much better control than a simple hysteresis controller like the RB or gluten ones. If you don't care about the programmable capabilities then you could use an stc-1000 for virtually no money...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I didn't realise there is a 3 year warranty on these units! How good is that.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> I didn't realise there is a 3 year warranty on these units! How good is that.



It’s only a 1 year
https://www.keg-king.com.au/guten-50-ltr-micro-brewery.html


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> It’s only a 1 year
> https://www.keg-king.com.au/guten-50-ltr-micro-brewery.html


I could have sworn that I was told 3 yr, will ask for clarification when I pick mine up.


----------



## Leyther

The switch won't last that long


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> The switch won't last that long


The switches look different, or it is just the cover they have put over them.


----------



## Milk-lizard84

Interested in possibly get a guten 40L. Does anyone know if these would fit any of the stills that either keg king or kegland offer?


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Hardly any content on there yet but though I'd start a Guten FB group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/300497734015828/


----------



## Wolfman1

Milk-lizard84 said:


> Interested in possibly get a guten 40L. Does anyone know if these would fit any of the stills that either keg king or kegland offer?


This was part of my thinking as well. The diameter is different, so the robobrew dome won’t fit. However, they do seem to be the same diameter as the grainfather so you could use the dome from that unit. No clamps on the sides though so you will need some way to give an right seal, and more importantly support the weight of the still head.


----------



## Milk-lizard84

Wolfman1 said:


> This was part of my thinking as well. The diameter is different, so the robobrew dome won’t fit. However, they do seem to be the same diameter as the grainfather so you could use the dome from that unit. No clamps on the sides though so you will need some way to give an right seal, and more importantly support the weight of the still head.


Yeah after posting i did forget about the clamps. It's a shame it's not the same diameter as I was leaning towards a guten over a robobrew.


----------



## gap

I suggest you do some reading about HBS stills on a distilling forum. 
There are better alternatives for stills out there.


----------



## chesl73

I've just bought a Gluten from KegKing this morning. 
I was wondering what others have done regards working out grain bill totals and water amounts and hop amounts to hit certain OG and IBU for this equipment? 
I've been doing for the last few years a pretty basic BIAB and I use Beersmith. 
Could anyone share and help me work out how I should approach it with the new 40L Gluten?

Thanks


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I still use my BM profile on Brewers Friend set at 70%, for the Guten, so you could still use your Beersmith for calculating the hops and grain to hit your target. Tip 1 don't leave your power cord in that nice little space made for it, wrap it around the handle, more than once I have filled with water only to have to empty it out to remove the power cord.
2, Make up a measuring stick at 2 litre increments.
3 My boil off rate is 5 litres per hour set on 2,000 watt, I use a hood so could be a slight difference.
4 Personal preference, but I use a higher water to grain ratio in the mash, so it depends on the grain bill, I like about 28 litres in the mash I usually take some out 2-3 litres and put it back after doughing in.


----------



## Leyther

Put a pilsner on today, went back to sparging from full volume, ended up over my estimated OG again, BS3 estimated 10.801P, actual 12.874P 

Cant seem to get it right, full vol=low OG, sparge=high OG.


----------



## Leyther

chesl73 said:


> I've just bought a Gluten from KegKing this morning.
> I was wondering what others have done regards working out grain bill totals and water amounts and hop amounts to hit certain OG and IBU for this equipment?
> I've been doing for the last few years a pretty basic BIAB and I use Beersmith.
> Could anyone share and help me work out how I should approach it with the new 40L Gluten?
> 
> Thanks


This is my BS3 config although I'm still fine tuining it


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> Put a pilsner on today, went back to sparging from full volume, ended up over my estimated OG again, BS3 estimated 10.801P, actual 12.874P
> 
> Cant seem to get it right, full vol=low OG, sparge=high OG.


Might be a silly question if you do this, do you dial in your water to grain ratio when you were using more water. That is the question I wanted to ask last week and forgot it.


----------



## Leyther

wide eyed and legless said:


> Might be a silly question if you do this, do you dial in your water to grain ratio when you were using more water. That is the question I wanted to ask last week and forgot it.



I just go with the volume recomended by beersmith which is based on the equipment profile so it probably just needs some more fine tuning.


----------



## chesl73

Thanks for the info guys Looking forward to doing my first brew on it.


----------



## chesl73

Another question. Given my 2 years of all grain brewing are using BIAB. Do you guys do similar full volume brews in the gluten or do you sparge? 
Probably need to read up on batch sparging but do you use Beersmith or the like to work out the volumes etc?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

If you do a 19 litre batch you could just about do a full no sparge, 21 litres just have to sparge with 2 to 3 litres.


----------



## altone

Ok WEAL, based solely on your recommendation I just bought 1 of these 





and if it doesn't work I'll hunt you down and use this on your veggie patch!







I'll need about 30 hours work to pay for it, so my beer purchases are done for a couple of months at least.

Then I'll probably need one of those coils to replace the bazooka - I see a big brewgear clearance sale coming up!

Thought I'd get in before the price rise and apologies to the guy behind the counter who had to count all my loose change


----------



## chesl73

For my Guten, I'm going to use the hop spider for all hop additions.
Now if I want to do first wort hopping, any ideas how I can do this in this case?
And when would I do it?
If I'm going to sparge would I add the FWHs after the sparge or before?
I was thinking, I could finish the sparge, remove the malt and then add the FWHs in the hop spider as the wort is heating up to boiling. You think this is valid?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

If you are using the hop spider you really don't have a choice than to wait until you have finished sparging. Gordon Strong is an advocate of FWH I am not sure if he covers it in this podcast but he is well worth listening to.


----------



## altone

chesl73 said:


> For my Guten, I'm going to use the hop spider for all hop additions.
> Now if I want to do first wort hopping, any ideas how I can do this in this case?
> And when would I do it?
> If I'm going to sparge would I add the FWHs after the sparge or before?
> I was thinking, I could finish the sparge, remove the malt and then add the FWHs in the hop spider as the wort is heating up to boiling. You think this is valid?



Well my understanding would be with the Guten. FWH would be done as soon as you raise the maltpipe after mashout.
So, raise the pipe, throw your hopspider in the kettle and let the wort drain down over your hops, and start raising the kettle temp.

NOTE: It's not something I do, but that seems the logical way to do it and fit's in with what Gordon Strong mentions in the above video.


----------



## chesl73

altone said:


> Well my understanding would be with the Guten. FWH would be done as soon as you raise the maltpipe after mashout.
> So, raise the pipe, throw your hopspider in the kettle and let the wort drain down over your hops, and start raising the kettle temp.
> 
> NOTE: It's not something I do, but that seems the logical way to do it and fit's in with what Gordon Strong mentions in the above video.



Thanks. Yes, it’s a Gordon Strong recipe - he seems to do it with all of his recipes.


----------



## chesl73

I’m just starting my brew this morning, my first one on the new Keg King Guten. I’ve set the automatic steps as per instructions. What I’d like to do is store these steps in the memory function however I don’t think the memory function works (at least for me).
I enter the steps in the Auto mode then the instructions say to hold the Manual button for 5 seconds and there will be a chime to indicate it has saved. There is no chime, the only chime is when I release the Manual button. If I now switch off the PCB, switch it on again and then hold Power and Timer for 5 seconds, I see R0S1 shown and if I press start nothing happens or if I press Auto to edit this recipe nothing happens. 
Any one else with one of these manage to get the memory function and recall to work?


----------



## York

chesl73 said:


> I’m just starting my brew this morning, my first one on the new Keg King Guten. I’ve set the automatic steps as per instructions. What I’d like to do is store these steps in the memory function however I don’t think the memory function works (at least for me).
> I enter the steps in the Auto mode then the instructions say to hold the Manual button for 5 seconds and there will be a chime to indicate it has saved. There is no chime, the only chime is when I release the Manual button. If I now switch off the PCB, switch it on again and then hold Power and Timer for 5 seconds, I see R0S1 shown and if I press start nothing happens or if I press Auto to edit this recipe nothing happens.
> Any one else with one of these manage to get the memory function and recall to work?




https://www.instagram.com/p/Bih0m5dgczE/


----------



## altone

@chesl73 Sorry just firing mine up for the first time - doing it manually just to check how it's working and in case I miss the end of a step.

The wort looks nice so far  but I was hoping for a little less variance in mash temp. 
Set to 67 and varies from 65.1 to 68.1 - still a lot closer than the BIAB I did before I'm guessing as the recirc is filtering through the grainbed nicely.


----------



## chesl73

I’m now onto the boil - I’ve had a few issues along the way getting familiar with how things work. I measured my pre-boil gravity and it is really low, strange as the temperature seemed within a few degrees of mash temp and it was mashing for a good 60 mins.
One problem I have and I can’t figure it out....how do I assemble the overflow pipe on the false bottom? Maybe someone could post a photo?
My issue is that I have a connector piece onto say the long piece and I thread that through the hole in the false bottom however there is nothing that stops this from slipping through and out of the false bottom. When I went to sparge, if I was to take the overflow top plate off then the overflow pipe would drop out and down into the wort. 
What am I missing? 

Thanks


----------



## Leyther

chesl73 said:


> I’m now onto the boil - I’ve had a few issues along the way getting familiar with how things work. I measured my pre-boil gravity and it is really low, strange as the temperature seemed within a few degrees of mash temp and it was mashing for a good 60 mins.
> One problem I have and I can’t figure it out....how do I assemble the overflow pipe on the false bottom? Maybe someone could post a photo?
> My issue is that I have a connector piece onto say the long piece and I thread that through the hole in the false bottom however there is nothing that stops this from slipping through and out of the false bottom. When I went to sparge, if I was to take the overflow top plate off then the overflow pipe would drop out and down into the wort.
> What am I missing?
> 
> Thanks


You should have a two long SS pieces with threads on them and 3 SS connectors, you should have 1 connector on the bottom screwed into the longer piece which you then put through the false bottom, you should then use the middle connector to connect the two long pieces together, after that put the top plate on and use the final connector to lock that in place, it shouldn't fall through then.

Did you sparge? I find you get better gravity when sparging, however I also brewed today and my gravitiy wasn't great either (pre boil 12.5, expected 13.6) , post boil I ended up at 14.15 where beersmith expected 16.8. Ive had brews both high and low, hence not sure if its just the grain or something I'm doing differently or if i just need to get beersmith dialed in better. I had 5L boil off rate specified today but I calculated it was 3.15L using 2100W.


----------



## Leyther

Here you go


----------



## chesl73

Thanks Leyther. I realise I didn't have the middle section. I was only using the long piece by itself because I was doing a smaller batch for my first run and so that was the problem.
Turns out my gravity reading was wrong, a dodgy refractometer I think. When I re did it the reading was fine so all good there. The brew is in the fermenter and everything else went pretty well. 
I had a good rolling boil going at 2100W and my boil off rate was 4L/hr. 

My one final question then from my brew today - I used the included hop spider for all hop additions however, it appears that my pump is blocked. It was working fine and now when I switch it on and I hear/feel the pump going but nothing is coming out the recirc arm. I assume it's blocked? If so, it's a bit annoying given I used the included hop spider. I've washed out the unit but it's still blocked. 
How do I unblock it?


----------



## chesl73

Actually...I managed to unblock it.
I have a small 2m hose setup so I can connect it to the tap and clean the unit. I set hose spout onto 'Jet' setting and aimed the water directly down into the hole at the bottom and water spurted out of the recirc pipe and a small amount of fine hop matter suddenly appeared and the pump now works.
It was a very small amount of fine hop matter, the pump seems very temperamental if this is all it takes to block it.
What do others do to stop this happening as you can't block the hole leading down to the pump?


----------



## altone

Ok there's a small single thread bit (shorter than the others I think) it goes below the bottom and screws onto the pipe 2 thread connector. Tighten it up well (like I didn't) 
Then you have amother connector for the second pipe part and the top bit which is smooth halfway internally.

Sorry, doing a back to back atm so can't post pics to help.


----------



## altone

chesl73 said:


> Actually...I managed to unblock it.
> I have a small 2m hose setup so I can connect it to the tap and clean the unit. I set hose spout onto 'Jet' setting and aimed the water directly down into the hole at the bottom and water spurted out of the recirc pipe and a small amount of fine hop matter suddenly appeared and the pump now works.
> It was a very small amount of fine hop matter, the pump seems very temperamental if this is all it takes to block it.
> What do others do to stop this happening as you can't block the hole leading down to the pump?



Err you did make sure the valve was open? No pumping issues for me on 2 brews so far. I was actually surprised how well it worked,
Had lots of break and gunk in the unit but it handled it ok.

edit: my gravity was spot on to my usual BIAB method.
I did factor in a 5l sparge as I usually do.


----------



## lespaul

Does anyone know how long the "introductory" special will be on for? Cant see any mention of the reduced price on their website


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> Does anyone know how long the "introductory" special will be on for? Cant see any mention of the reduced price on their website


Its finished.


chesl73 said:


> Actually...I managed to unblock it.
> I have a small 2m hose setup so I can connect it to the tap and clean the unit. I set hose spout onto 'Jet' setting and aimed the water directly down into the hole at the bottom and water spurted out of the recirc pipe and a small amount of fine hop matter suddenly appeared and the pump now works.
> It was a very small amount of fine hop matter, the pump seems very temperamental if this is all it takes to block it.
> What do others do to stop this happening as you can't block the hole leading down to the pump?


There is a filter but I would advise against this, if you had the helix it would solve a few of the problems you have had, no hop spider needed, lift your grain up to sparge and tip in your FWH in the space between the the grain pipe and main body. Do not run the pump during the boil, just in case you have, I have done numerous brews and never had a blocked pump.


----------



## chesl73

Yes, I did have the valve open, it's not beyond me but yes, I did! 
I've checked again on the memory function and it does not work. 
I've followed the instructions and the recipe defaults to the standard 2400W, 60min, 67C.
If I change it to say 2400W, 59min,67C and then press Manual for 5s as stated then go back in and follow the instructions to recall this recipe it just defaults back to 2400W,60min,67C. 
So it's either:
1. Me not able to follow simple instructions (quite possible)
2. The instructions are incorrect
3. Problem with the unit

Options 1 and 2 could be ruled in or out by someone else trying it out.
Whoever has this Guten Keg King, could you give it a try please and let me know if it works for you?

Thanks


----------



## lespaul

ok thanks, looks like it's on the back burner then. Do they have specials or sales on frequently?


----------



## Beir Hearder

lespaul said:


> ok thanks, looks like it's on the back burner then. Do they have specials or sales on frequently?


Still pretty good value compared to anything else out there.


----------



## lespaul

I'm not as sold, especially given the actual cost was closer to 400 before keg king doubled the price


----------



## chesl73

wide eyed and legless said:


> Its finished.
> 
> There is a filter but I would advise against this, if you had the helix it would solve a few of the problems you have had, no hop spider needed, lift your grain up to sparge and tip in your FWH in the space between the the grain pipe and main body. Do not run the pump during the boil, just in case you have, I have done numerous brews and never had a blocked pump.



The helix setup you have, I don't see how that stops the hop matter from falling down the hole at the bottom leading to the pump and therefore blocking it?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> I'm not as sold, especially given the actual cost was closer to 400 before keg king doubled the price


There are quite a few who bought pre KK and paid over $500, I would think most would still consider that price to be value for money. In all honesty and any bias aside it is a quality build.
Imake when they released the Grainfather were in a unique position, the closest single vessel on the market was the BM at around $2500 so they were able to slap a huge markup on the Grainfather which wouldn't have landed for any more than what the Guten landed for.
Have a look around do some research and see where the value for money is now, you wouldn't have to look any further than this thread.


chesl73 said:


> The helix setup you have, I don't see how that stops the hop matter from falling down the hole at the bottom leading to the pump and therefore blocking it?


That is why I asked if you had the pump running during the boil, as I said I have never had a pump block, I do the same as you when I clean up afterwards, put the hose on jet and blast water down the intake to clear any debris in the pump. Once the mash is finished the pump doesn't get switched on again until the clean up with perborate prior to the next brew.


----------



## chesl73

I did switch the pump on when I had the immersion chiller in after the temp had dropped to about 75. I thought the recirculation would help speed up the chill. That was when the pump wouldn't work and was blocked.
I noticed in old posts you sourced the helix - where can I get one from if I decide to go that way?


----------



## EmptyB

Save me trawling through all these pages; what's the situation with the switch on the Guten? I recall mention of it being dodgy or needing replacement?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

You can get them from jaycar


----------



## EmptyB

So is that a yes? The switches are dodgy?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I haven't had a problem but some have


----------



## Pundy

First brew for me tonight on the guten. All was going great until I went to lift the malt pipe out and the false bottom fell through! A lot of draining, cleaning and filtering later I did get a brew done, albeit a few points under expected gravity.

I’m guessing I had the false bottom upside down? I had it so the inner was “lower” than the edges, and I’m thinking it should be the other way? I can’t really tell from the tiny picture in the manual.


----------



## Leyther

Ive never had the bottom fall through in 18m so I suspect you had something wrong, it goes on the inside of the malt pipe and rests on the lip.

I've never had an issue with the pump either and I have done some seriously hoppy brews.

I'm still struggling with draining though, the bazooka is usless so thats a none starter, I have had mixed success witht he helix, I did an especially hoppy beer yesterday so I used a hop spider hence only the bittering hops and proteins where in the boil, I did a whirlpool although given the hop spider sat in there during it then its probably not as efficient as without it however it took an absolute age to drain (> hour and then only with me helping it), and I even lifted it out and one point to check it but it wasnt blocked. That is becoming my biggest paint point in the whole brewing process now.

As someone else asked yes the switches can be problematic, you'll get a year out of it but then it might start to fail, you can pickup a replacement dual gang on ebay for $2.99 (from China) or get two singles from jaycar, its not hard to replace.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

chesl73 said:


> I did switch the pump on when I had the immersion chiller in after the temp had dropped to about 75. I thought the recirculation would help speed up the chill. That was when the pump wouldn't work and was blocked.
> I noticed in old posts you sourced the helix - where can I get one from if I decide to go that way?


I sourced them from China first batch was an MO of 100 subsequent orders were for 200 MO.



Pundy said:


> First brew for me tonight on the guten. All was going great until I went to lift the malt pipe out and the false bottom fell through! A lot of draining, cleaning and filtering later I did get a brew done, albeit a few points under expected gravity.
> 
> I’m guessing I had the false bottom upside down? I had it so the inner was “lower” than the edges, and I’m thinking it should be the other way? I can’t really tell from the tiny picture in the manual.



Yes you had the base screen upside down, the raised centre section should be facing upwards, any downward force then pushes the screen outwards making it impossible to fall through.


----------



## Abird89

I find with the helix the first half drains pretty well, the next quarter slowly and then the last quarter barely at all / needs assistance from me


----------



## Pundy

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yes you had the base screen upside down, the raised centre section should be facing upwards, any downward force then pushes the screen outwards making it impossible to fall through.



Thanks. That was my conclusion too. Interesting the promo picture on Keg King’s website definitely has it raised center down. 

The manual - we’ll that could be either way depending on how I squint.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I just went with logic, not sure which is correct but never had a bottom screen fall out.


----------



## dibbz

Pundy said:


> First brew for me tonight on the guten. All was going great until I went to lift the malt pipe out and the false bottom fell through! A lot of draining, cleaning and filtering later I did get a brew done, albeit a few points under expected gravity.
> 
> I’m guessing I had the false bottom upside down? I had it so the inner was “lower” than the edges, and I’m thinking it should be the other way? I can’t really tell from the tiny picture in the manual.



Happened to me once on the 50l, I used a shifter to massage the rolled lip back out a little, and am very careful. Considering making something to diffuse the recirc and then using the top screen on the bottom as well.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Good idea with the doubling up, easy to pick up some mesh or perforated plate for the top screen, just a bit more insurance.


----------



## chesl73

wide eyed and legless said:


> I sourced them from China first batch was an MO of 100 subsequent orders were for 200 MO.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you had the base screen upside down, the raised centre section should be facing upwards, any downward force then pushes the screen outwards making it impossible to fall through.


Interesting you say this about the false bottom. Leyther posted some pictures a few days ago to illustrate to me the setup and he has it as I did with the raised centre section facing down, ie so the raised edge is facing up. You think then we should have it the other way?


----------



## Pundy

chesl73 said:


> Interesting you say this about the false bottom. Leyther posted some pictures a few days ago to illustrate to me the setup and he has it as I did with the raised centre section facing down, ie so the raised edge is facing up. You think then we should have it the other way?



Take my frustration as a warning! Every picture and video I’ve seen has the center raised section facing down but i think it makes perfect sense pointing it up. Flex the bottom plate both ways and you’ll see why! (Had I not seen the pics the other way I would’ve had it facing up)

I really don’t get why it’s a separate plate and not directly connected to the malt pipe. Or hooked in a way that it fits into the rolled hook of the malt pipe and kind of locks together.


----------



## fdsaasdf

Are the keg king units electrically certified for use in Australia? For $740 they'd want to be!


----------



## chesl73

Pundy said:


> Take my frustration as a warning! Every picture and video I’ve seen has the center raised section facing down but i think it makes perfect sense pointing it up. Flex the bottom plate both ways and you’ll see why! (Had I not seen the pics the other way I would’ve had it facing up)
> 
> I really don’t get why it’s a separate plate and not directly connected to the malt pipe. Or hooked in a way that it fits into the rolled hook of the malt pipe and kind of locks together.



Thanks. Will try it the other way. Have a look at this picture straight from the Keg King website. Setup is with the raised edges pointing up. 
What's odd about this photo is the overflow pipe and connectors look different the way it's setup. 
The false bottom appears to have a connector sitting on top rather than underneath.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

fdsaasdf said:


> Are the keg king units electrically certified for use in Australia? For $740 they'd want to be!


Yes they have, sighted it before I got mine.


chesl73 said:


> Thanks. Will try it the other way. Have a look at this picture straight from the Keg King website. Setup is with the raised edges pointing up.
> What's odd about this photo is the overflow pipe and connectors look different the way it's setup.
> The false bottom appears to have a connector sitting on top rather than underneath.


On the top is a straight nipple under the screen is the flanged hollow screw.


----------



## krz

Thanks everyone on this thread.
I have been silently reading everything and today I bought a 50l Guten.
I have enough grain for my first brew which I will start tomorrow.
This is my first experience with all grain brewing.
Normally, what I have done in the past is buy 3 x pre made worts (I have a 66litre SS conical fermenter).
So, this is the next step up.
The bloke at Keg King (the yank) was absolutely grouse. He explained the process, wrote me a recipe and off I went.

The assembly instructions for the Guten are crap.
I've already had a few beers, so will probably re-read tomorrow.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

krz said:


> Thanks everyone on this thread.
> I have been silently reading everything and today I bought a 50l Guten.
> I have enough grain for my first brew which I will start tomorrow.
> This is my first experience with all grain brewing.
> Normally, what I have done in the past is buy 3 x pre made worts (I have a 66litre SS conical fermenter).
> So, this is the next step up.
> The bloke at Keg King (the yank) was absolutely grouse. He explained the process, wrote me a recipe and off I went.
> 
> The assembly instructions for the Guten are crap.
> I've already had a few beers, so will probably re-read tomorrow.


I hadn't noticed any Yankees working there, but I have the 50 litre, I may not be doing any more than a 23 litre batch but I am pleased I can now do a 23 litre without any sparge whatsoever, I am sure once you get used to the system you will never look back.


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> I hadn't noticed any Yankees working there, but I have the 50 litre, I may not be doing any more than a 23 litre batch but I am pleased I can now do a 23 litre without any sparge whatsoever, I am sure once you get used to the system you will never look back.


Its all new for me this all grain stuff.
What perked my interest, was that normally I had to buy 3 x worts which is like $130, then today I bought 11kg of grain which was like $40.
So after 8 brews I get my money back!!!! (well thats my justification)

Oh, and the yank. He just keeps on talking.
He's a nice bloke and also knows his stuff.
(off topic) - Glad there is competion now


----------



## Frangalooma

If the pump is the same one that's in the grainfather why does it tell you not to run it after mashing. Ie whirloppling after the boil?
Does anybody use the pump for whirlpooing.?


----------



## fdsaasdf

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yes they have, sighted it before I got mine.


How can this be verified? What is the certificate number?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Frangalooma said:


> If the pump is the same one that's in the grainfather why does it tell you not to run it after mashing. Ie whirloppling after the boil?
> Does anybody use the pump for whirlpooing.?



The guten's pump pick up is a hole in the bottom, so as soon as you turn it on after you've added hops, it will clog up. The grainfather has a filter over the inlet but I think the pump pick up is off the bottom of the vessel and out the side.


----------



## NC1984

Anyone got a BeerSmith profile for the guten 30/40 (everyone else calls it 30 KK calls it 40)


----------



## altone

NC1984 said:


> Anyone got a BeerSmith profile for the guten 30/40 (everyone else calls it 30 KK calls it 40)



I started off using this one, I think it's posted somewhere in this thread
The Ace is the UK name for the Guten if you didn't already know.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=SjZHU0w1NWRlSWlNSWQ0cGlTd1NrblNUT3d4aFJB


----------



## NC1984

Thanks did you find it accurate or did you need to do your own calcs


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

NC1984 said:


> Anyone got a BeerSmith profile for the guten 30/40 (everyone else calls it 30 KK calls it 40)



If you join the Guten Facebook group I’ve chucked up one in the file section there for the 40L unit off my calculations and measurements. Not guaranteeing it’s perfection but a solid foundation


----------



## Silverfox

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> The guten's pump pick up is a hole in the bottom, so as soon as you turn it on after you've added hops, it will clog up. The grainfather has a filter over the inlet but I think the pump pick up is off the bottom of the vessel and out the side.


So if you were to mod the Guten by adding some sort of filter over the pickup or if you use a hop spider or bags, can the pump be used to whirlpool? Will it work for boiling wort?


----------



## altone

NC1984 said:


> Thanks did you find it accurate or did you need to do your own calcs


I actually get lower boiloff as i boil at 1900W - still working on it - only 2 brews in


----------



## NC1984

Here are a few items from the UK that might work

https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/brew-devil/318-brew-devil-hop-filter.html

https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/brew-devil/372-brew-devil-30l-whirlpool-arm.html


----------



## NC1984

nathanvonbeerenstein said:


> If you join the Guten Facebook group I’ve chucked up one in the file section there for the 40L unit off my calculations and measurements. Not guaranteeing it’s perfection but a solid foundation



Can’t seem to find the group,

What’s its name


----------



## altone

NC1984 said:


> Can’t seem to find the group,
> 
> What’s its name


I think he means this one.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/300497734015828/


----------



## devoutharpist

Hey everyone, classic long time lurker first time poster here. 

I'm looking at getting a 50L unit to streamline brew days. I have read through most of the thread and i was just wondering what people's experiences have been with brewing "smaller" batches on the 50? Are there any restrictions or minimum sizes that can be done? I usually aim for anywhere between 19-24L batches (post-boil).

I also considered the 40, but since i do a lot of higher gravity brews i figured the extra space in the 50 would save a lot of headaches on that end

Thanks


----------



## Ayinger

Anyone ever dropped the lid for your Guten? They shatter as if they have been shot! I learned this by experiencing this last Friday. I'm in the USA and have no way to replace it short of a $70 shipping fee. Anyone know if a Robobrew, or Grainfather lid might fit? I know the pump return hole will not work, but i'm thinking of buying a distillation lid and drilling the requisite hole for the pump return. Any thoughts will be much appreciated!


----------



## Vazerhino

https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/brew-devil/372-brew-devil-30l-whirlpool-arm.html

So this suggests the guten pump can be used for whirlpooling (and therefore chilling)?


----------



## altone

Vazerhino said:


> https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/brew-devil/372-brew-devil-30l-whirlpool-arm.html
> 
> So this suggests the guten pump can be used for whirlpooling (and therefore chilling)?


Yes there are videos of people doing that with the Ace on youtube.


----------



## Vazerhino

Keg king are getting the whirlpool arms in about a month.


----------



## PTG

Vazerhino said:


> Keg king are getting the whirlpool arms in about a month.



Wouldn’t some silicone hose with an elbow at the end achieve the same outcome?


----------



## altone

PTG said:


> Wouldn’t some silicone hose with an elbow at the end achieve the same outcome?


Bingo!


----------



## chesl73

Here's the profile I'm going to use on my 2nd brew next week. 
Notice I have 8L as the Mash Tun Addition. 
The facebook Beersmith profile says 6.5L but I carefully measured water into the unit a few days ago with the malt pipe in and the false bottom and there was 8L of water added before the water level came just up to the false bottom. It seems like a lot but with the ball valve fitted it means the false bottom sits pretty high up on the unit. If you don't account for this dead space then there will not be enough water for the mash, or it will be very dry. 
At the end of the boil/chill I just opened the ball valve and had the wort drop into my fermenter. What was left was the trub and this I measured as 2.5L. 
My boil rate at 2100W was 4L/hour although this might change a bit per person.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

For the Guteneers, this is what I do, you don't have to do the same or agree just some ideas.
I made a video of the emptying if I can load it I shall.
Brewing a 23 litre batch of Best Bitter no sparge method.

Helix coil in position

32 litres of liquor, the silicone tube is to prevent an exodus of grain through the handle holes, the bazooka is mounted on the top of the overflow pipe.

End of mash. 
The bazooka with some silicone tube inserted on the inside, this means the liquor has to go over the top of the tube though I haven't found any difference in pre boil gravity using the overflow and not.

Vigorous boil 
The hood cheap and easy to make after a visit to a Chinese cooking utensil shop help keeps the heat in.

After emptying, took approximately 2.5 mins to empty.

Well I reckon that just about nailed the 23 litres
Tried to insert the video would not go on, will have to work on it and add it later.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> [After emptying, took approximately 2.5 mins to empty.



What am i doing wrong with the helix then if mine takes so long / stops draining after a while? It was even slow when i used a hop spider rather than dumping straight in


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Can't open the helix link


----------



## Lionman

Just ordered a 50L Guten from Brewmart. Looking forward to doing a double batch to ferment in my 50L kegmenter.

Looks like I have a lot of learning to do on this unit, I have been using a DIY single vessel electric setup which will now be relegated to sparge water heater. Is it possible to hook up a line to use the internal pump for sparging or will I need to use my external pump?

What's the maximum grist you can fit in the 50L? hoping for ~13-14kg so I can do double batches of IPA.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> What am i doing wrong with the helix then if mine takes so long / stops draining after a while? It was even slow when i used a hop spider rather than dumping straight in


Are you using an immersion chiller, no amount of hops can stop the flow but maybe the cold break can, that's the only explanation I could come up with.


FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Can't open the helix link


Yes, didn't work on mine either I shall have to download something better than the windows app.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> Are you using an immersion chiller, no amount of hops can stop the flow but maybe the cold break can, that's the only explanation I could come up with.
> .



Last brew (first on Guten) I hot cubed. To connect the helix to the tap i used that little spare elbow it comes with and jammed in. Perhaps that restricted the flow too much. 
With the robo i could just twist it in to the tap hole and it'd hold. How are people attaching it to the Guten?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> Last brew (first on Guten) I hot cubed. To connect the helix to the tap i used that little spare elbow it comes with and jammed in. Perhaps that restricted the flow too much.
> With the robo i could just twist it in to the tap hole and it'd hold. How are people attaching it to the Guten?


When I was supplying the helix I also supplied a 1/2 BSP = elbow I found it a bit fiddly and started using a capillary elbow much easier to slip it in.


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> For the Guteneers, .......
> View attachment 113588
> The bazooka with some silicone tube inserted on the inside, this means the liquor has to go over the top of the tube though I haven't found any difference in pre boil gravity using the overflow and not.
> The hood cheap and easy to make after a visit to a Chinese cooking utensil shop help keeps the heat in.
> View attachment 113591
> ....



Great idea with the bazooka. Sticking it on top is a fantastic idea.
Now the hood, where did you get this hood from?


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> When I was supplying the helix I also supplied a 1/2 BSP = elbow I found it a bit fiddly and started using a capillary elbow much easier to slip it in.



Ah cheers. Now that you mention it that’s probably what’s screwed inside the Robobrew from when I used it in there


----------



## krz

Today I did my first all grain brew every using the 50l Guten.
My objective was to make 45 litres of work with at least 1.056 sg, so that I can then dilute with about 12-15 litres (targeting 1.048) which allows me to make 3 kegs in the fermenter.

What I ended up with was about 42l into my fermenter at 1.046
I used 11kg of grain, with 30 litres of water for the mash, sparged with 15 litres and ended up with only 35 litres!!! Somehow I lost 10 litres, I think this is too much water loss.

My Guten experiences.

I dont have a 15A circuit, so I purchased a AMFibian 15A to 10A power adaptor. I set the unit at 3000W and attempted to boil but about 75C the power adaptor tripped. I reduced to 2500W and didnt have another issue

The hop spider doesnt sit properly by itself in the kettle, it submerged, and I lost hops into the wort. I carefully scooped out most with a sieve.
You cant have the hop spider sitting in with the lid on flush. If the hop spider had a top that would be great, need to think of an alternativate to the hop spider. I did try a hop bag, but I think the hop pellets got thru that as well. Any suggestions>
In Aldi yesterday I spotted a 1100KG chain hoist for $60. I set that up above the Guten and used it to lift out the grain, its worked perfectly, I initially just lifted in 10 cm, and let it drain, then higher and higher until I could rest the basket on the edges as intended.
The immersion cooler worked really well, I ended up buying some compression fittings and fit them to it with some male hose ends. This allowed me to connected 2 hoses to it with garden quick disconnects. The temp dropped from 100C to 45C in about 15 mins. Next time I will collect the hot water into another vessel to use for cleaning.
I ended up using the Guten pump to transfer directly to the keg. I used a sieve to filter any stray matter, but there was bugger all stray matter. Just before all the wort was drained I stopped the pump and there was a little bit of hop crud sitting on the botton.
Cleaning was easy, there was some slight burnt brown sugar marks on the top of the heating element, This came off easy with some vinegar.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Ayinger said:


> Anyone ever dropped the lid for your Guten? They shatter as if they have been shot! I learned this by experiencing this last Friday. I'm in the USA and have no way to replace it short of a $70 shipping fee. Anyone know if a Robobrew, or Grainfather lid might fit? I know the pump return hole will not work, but i'm thinking of buying a distillation lid and drilling the requisite hole for the pump return. Any thoughts will be much appreciated!



Yeah toughened glass will sort of explode with a big enough impact in the wrong place. The GF and robo are a smaller diameter so the lids aren't going to fit. Maybe try a kitchenware shop to see if you can get one that is the same size, do you still have the ring?


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> For the Guteneers, this is what I do, you don't have to do the same or agree just some ideas.
> I made a video of the emptying if I can load it I shall.
> Brewing a 23 litre batch of Best Bitter no sparge method.
> View attachment 113585
> Helix coil in position
> View attachment 113586
> 32 litres of liquor, the silicone tube is to prevent an exodus of grain through the handle holes, the bazooka is mounted on the top of the overflow pipe.
> View attachment 113587
> End of mash. View attachment 113588
> The bazooka with some silicone tube inserted on the inside, this means the liquor has to go over the top of the tube though I haven't found any difference in pre boil gravity using the overflow and not..



Some nice ideas there, might have to pinch a few of them when I do a special brew. 
I'm happy to keep sparging with 5l for my junk APA's which is mostly what I'm doing now, as it always worked well before.
.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Ayinger said:


> Anyone ever dropped the lid for your Guten? They shatter as if they have been shot! I learned this by experiencing this last Friday. I'm in the USA and have no way to replace it short of a $70 shipping fee. Anyone know if a Robobrew, or Grainfather lid might fit? I know the pump return hole will not work, but i'm thinking of buying a distillation lid and drilling the requisite hole for the pump return. Any thoughts will be much appreciated!


Those lids are actually wok lids, but even if you got one the right size you wouldn't be able to drill it, maybe look for a s/steel or aluminium lid which fits. Otherwise get some perspex and make one.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

krz said:


> The hop spider doesnt sit properly by itself in the kettle, it submerged, and I lost hops into the wort. I carefully scooped out most with a sieve.
> You cant have the hop spider sitting in with the lid on flush. If the hop spider had a top that would be great, need to think of an alternativate to the hop spider. I did try a hop bag, but I think the hop pellets got thru that as well. Any suggestions>




Can your hop spider sit on the malt pipe retaining ring? You could always grab some fine mesh and make a top for the hop spider.


----------



## altone

krz said:


> Today I did my first all grain brew every using the 50l Guten.
> 
> My Guten experiences.
> 
> The hop spider doesnt sit properly by itself in the kettle, it submerged, and I lost hops into the wort. I carefully scooped out most with a sieve.
> You cant have the hop spider sitting in with the lid on flush. If the hop spider had a top that would be great, need to think of an alternativate to the hop spider. I did try a hop bag, but I think the hop pellets got thru that as well. Any suggestions>


I'm assuming the hop spider slid in and was at an angle?
My fix for this:




Not the Guten hopspider but my old one. If you bend the handle a bit it should stop it tipping down.

When I'm boiling and adding hops I don't use the lid. You do?


----------



## Ayinger

Good news on the lid. I found that my old brew kettle stainless lid fits it... another perk is that it is already fitted with a distillation collar for my still, so that means sooner or later i'll be trying out a distillation with the guten. Out of curiosity have any of you completed 50-100 brews on the Guten yet?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

altone said:


> When I'm boiling and adding hops I don't use the lid. You do?


That's a good point


----------



## krz

altone said:


> ...
> 
> When I'm boiling and adding hops I don't use the lid. You do?



Well, I assumed it would be good to have a lid on, but I guess with the lid off, it doesnt foam up as much, and its only water coming out?
Good tip


----------



## Silverfox

krz said:


> Well, I assumed it would be good to have a lid on, but I guess with the lid off, it doesnt foam up as much, and its only water coming out?
> Good tip


Not just water..


----------



## NC1984

Did my first AG yesterday, I think it went well, my toddler broke my hydrometer after the pre boil gravity reading 1038, my spare I know is out by around 2 points and OG came to 1048, volume was bang on desired 25L, how so efficient as this gives me around 80+%....


----------



## NC1984

NC1984 said:


> Did my first AG yesterday, I think it went well, my toddler broke my hydrometer after the pre boil gravity reading 1038, my spare I know is out by around 2 points and OG came to 1048, volume was bang on desired 25L, how so efficient as this gives me around 80+%....


----------



## NC1984

4.5kg grain bill, 16L mash, 19L sparge, 25 L batch


----------



## Leyther

krz said:


> Well, I assumed it would be good to have a lid on, but I guess with the lid off, it doesnt foam up as much, and its only water coming out?
> Good tip




You definitely want the lid off during the boil, unwanted chemicals (dimethyl sulfide (DMS)) get boiled off and you want them in the atmosphere not on your lid where they will condensate and drop back into the boil.


----------



## goatchop41

Leyther said:


> You definitely want the lid off during the boil, unwanted chemicals (dimethyl sulfide (DMS)) get boiled off and you want them in the atmosphere not on your lid where they will condensate and drop back into the boil.



Come on, do you really think that this is actually an issue in this day and age?
The vast majority of modern malts that the vast majority of brewers will be using are modified well enough by the maltsters that SMM levels (and therefore DMS later on) are negligible. Is DMS really an issue anymore, outside of less modified malts from Europe?


----------



## Silverfox

goatchop41 said:


> Come on, do you really think that this is actually an issue in this day and age?
> The vast majority of modern malts that the vast majority of brewers will be using are modified well enough by the maltsters that SMM levels (and therefore DMS later on) are negligible. Is DMS really an issue anymore, outside of less modified malts from Europe?



I think if that were the case, every man and his dog would be brewing with the lid on for the whole process and you would have SFA boil off. Theres probably a reason why >95% of homebrewers dont boil with the lid on.


----------



## NC1984

NC1984 said:


> 4.5kg grain bill, 16Lmash, 19L sparge, 25 L batch



Am I trippin here or is this what we are getting from these machines


----------



## altone

NC1984 said:


> Am I trippin here or is this what we are getting from these machines


Depends how you use them I guess.
Seems to be a lot of water loss there though unless it was boiled for a long time and at 2500w - I boil at 1900w. 
edit: ignore the water loss thing I misread your first quote but are you boiling with the lid on? I don't.
I've mainly done 4.2k grain 22l mash 5l sparge for around an 18l batch in the 30l unit as I like to do keg sized batches.
But you can fit 8Kg plus of grain in them if you try and with a full kettle at mash and a decent sparge you could get a bigger batch out of it.


----------



## NC1984

altone said:


> Depends how you use them I guess.
> Seems to be a lot of water loss there though unless it was boiled for a long time and at 2500w - I boil at 1900w.
> edit: ignore the water loss thing I misread your first quote but are you boiling with the lid on? I don't.
> I've mainly done 4.2k grain 22l mash 5l sparge for around an 18l batch in the 30l unit as I like to do keg sized batches.
> But you can fit 8Kg plus of grain in them if you try and with a full kettle at mash and a decent sparge you could get a bigger batch out of it.



I had the lid off for both mash and boil

Ha I wrote down my numbers wrong, it was 16L mash and 19L sparge sorry, 

Boil at about 2300w

The recipe was straight out of graham wheelers book and quoted total liquor as 35.2 to achieve 25L batch, I’m just amazed it all went to plan, OG higher than I was chasing, should have been 1040,


----------



## altone

NC1984 said:


> I had the lid off for both mash and boil
> 
> Ha I wrote down my numbers wrong, it was 16L mash and 19L sparge sorry,
> 
> Boil at about 2300w
> 
> The recipe was straight out of graham wheelers book and quoted total liquor as 35.2 to achieve 25L batch, I’m just amazed it all went to plan, OG higher than I was chasing, should have been 1040,



Nice! That brew is a pretty good drop too. I'm just doing APA's atm with OG around 1.050, but next is going to be an experimental porter.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

NC1984 said:


> I had the lid off for both mash and boil
> 
> Ha I wrote down my numbers wrong, it was 16L mash and 19L sparge sorry,
> 
> Boil at about 2300w
> 
> The recipe was straight out of graham wheelers book and quoted total liquor as 35.2 to achieve 25L batch, I’m just amazed it all went to plan, OG higher than I was chasing, should have been 1040,
> View attachment 113615


Doing a dry Irish stout next but will fit that recipe for London Pride in within the week.


----------



## NC1984

wide eyed and legless said:


> Doing a dry Irish stout next but will fit that recipe for London Pride in within the week.



It’s my favourite beer, I have tried many recipes for this and haven’t nailed it yet, fingers crossed


----------



## Frangalooma

altone said:


> Yes there are videos of people doing that with the Ace on youtube.


So it can handle boiling wort? If it can't how do you sanitise the pump system after the mash to recirculate the wort post boil. For example I to your fermenter.


----------



## goatchop41

Silverfox said:


> I think if that were the case, every man and his dog would be brewing with the lid on for the whole process and you would have SFA boil off. Theres probably a reason why >95% of homebrewers dont boil with the lid on.



Yeah, because they all read and repeat back the same stuff that may have been true 20 years ago, but isn't necessarily true now...it's just a feedback loop - someone says it, new brewers read it, then they repeat it to other new brewers.
Talk to all of the no boil sour brewers/people who do abbreviated boils and see how many of them get DMS


----------



## altone

goatchop41 said:


> Yeah, because they all read and repeat back the same stuff that may have been true 20 years ago, but isn't necessarily true now...it's just a feedback loop - someone says it, new brewers read it, then they repeat it to other new brewers.
> Talk to all of the no boil sour brewers/people who do abbreviated boils and see how many of them get DMS



So you think it's like the "Throw away mussels that don't open when they are cooked" story. 
It went into a cookbook and everyone took it as gospel even though it's not really the case and people just pass it on to others still.
Except in this case it was true some time ago, but as malts improved it's an unnecessary thing that is perpetuated by brewers.


----------



## Wolfman1

goatchop41 said:


> Yeah, because they all read and repeat back the same stuff that may have been true 20 years ago, but isn't necessarily true now...it's just a feedback loop - someone says it, new brewers read it, then they repeat it to other new brewers.
> Talk to all of the no boil sour brewers/people who do abbreviated boils and see how many of them get DMS


It’s also applying commercial brewing practises to home brew set ups. Megaswill kettles have steam hoods and the condensed water smells but the grain bills are orders of magnitude different. I have the lid on my urn ajar so it’s a compromise for me.


altone said:


> So you think it's like the "Throw away mussels that don't open when they are cooked" story.
> It went into a cookbook and everyone took it as gospel even though it's not really the case and people just pass it on to others still.
> Except in this case it was true some time ago, but as malts improved it's an unnecessary thing that is perpetuated by brewers.


Brulosophy did an podcast on this and they couldn’t pick anything from closed lids but they talked about the condensed water from big brew houses steam hoods smelling pretty bad. 
I think it’s something that doesn’t look like it happens on home brew scale with modern Malts. 
I leave my urn lid ajar mainly to keep things out as much as anything. I’ve fished a dead moth out of one brew but it went down okay at the party


----------



## goatchop41

altone said:


> Except in this case it was true some time ago, but as malts improved it's an unnecessary thing that is perpetuated by brewers.



Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. Most malts these days are modified well enough that they have very little SMM.

It's just one of the many ongoing myths within homebrewing, that make no sense scientifically/chemically (eg. squeezing the bag when doing BIAB will extract tannins; leaving dry hops in for too long will make your beer taste grassy), but are so often said that everyone just believes it without actually questioning its validity


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Best advice to give any newbie, don't listen to the plebs, and we are all plebs, research, Wiley on line library has plenty to offer and so has this bloke. A lot to go through but around the 13.55 time line is the one to watch.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Best advice to give any newbie, don't listen to the plebs, and we are all plebs, research, Wiley on line library has plenty to offer and so has this bloke. A lot to go through but around the 13.55 time line is the one to watch.




It's all well and good for him to say what he says, but it doesn't really counter the point that I'm bringing up. Yes, you do need to boil and allow the vapour to escape in order to avoid issues with DMS - _if there is enough SMM to cause issues in the beer with DMS_ _later on_.
At no point in the clip (unless I just didn't listen for long enough), does he actually talk about the relevance of modification/kilning of malts and levels of SMM in them, which is the point being brought up here


----------



## goatchop41

Anyhow this is obviously off topic for this thread, so you can do what you want and blindly believe what every other homebrewer says, or you can critically evaluate and consider the validity of what they are saying, based on actual available evidence.

Now, back to the Guten


----------



## devoutharpist

Got my 50L Guten now, going to give it a bit of a test run today to make sure it works. Does anyone have a Beersmith profile or a starting point for the 50?

I've seen a bunch of 30/40L profiles and i can't seem to find anything on the facebook group, given the limitations of not having a login.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> Got my 50L Guten now, going to give it a bit of a test run today to make sure it works. Does anyone have a Beersmith profile or a starting point for the 50?
> 
> I've seen a bunch of 30/40L profiles and i can't seem to find anything on the facebook group, given the limitations of not having a login.


How did you go? Have a look on some of the UK forums if you didn't find anything.


----------



## altone

devoutharpist said:


> Got my 50L Guten now, going to give it a bit of a test run today to make sure it works. Does anyone have a Beersmith profile or a starting point for the 50?
> 
> I've seen a bunch of 30/40L profiles and i can't seem to find anything on the facebook group, given the limitations of not having a login.


Can you get a profile on this link? Hopcat is the same device

https://www.facebook.com/Guten-Brewery-3050l-Equipment-Profiles-Modifications-132549720802270/

If you can't for whatever reason pm me and I'll send you a few screenshots.


----------



## devoutharpist

Thanks fellas, i did manage to find a couple of profiles in the end, so i will take that one into consideration as well. Once i get the unit dialed in nicely i'll post it back.

Sadly it looks like the maiden brew day has been pushed back a bit though. A few minutes after turning on the pump during my test run there was some water dripping off the recirc pipe. Turns out there was a hairline split in the weld at the bottom of the recirc pipe. I contacted KK and they are going to replace it, just waiting for the faulty pipe to get to them so they can send me a replacement.


----------



## altone

I did a brew today with the maltpipe base the "right" way up and the bloody thing fell out mid mash!
It's going in with the dome pointing up until I work out something better to stop it from falling.
Lucky I had my old urn to dump everything into after mashout with a biab bag in to catch all the grain.

I'm thinking of somehow adding a couple of SS rods to the maltpipe to avoid this ever happening again.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I have it dome up but not sure if its right or wrong, a lot of the videos have the dome down, Im starting to wonder if it's going to be worth taking it to a SS welder and getting it spot welded in a few places


----------



## krz

altone said:


> I did a brew today with the maltpipe base the "right" way up and the bloody thing fell out mid mash!
> It's going in with the dome pointing up until I work out something better to stop it from falling.
> Lucky I had my old urn to dump everything into after mashout with a biab bag in to catch all the grain.
> 
> I'm thinking of somehow adding a couple of SS rods to the maltpipe to avoid this ever happening again.



Mine never fell out and I had 11kgs of soaked grain in it.
Mine is positioned dome up.
Also, make sure you have the pipe assembled the correct way, originally I didnt.
The "smallest" spacer is on the bottom.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I've always fitted it with the dome up, never had a problem.


----------



## altone

Neil Buttriss said:


> I have it dome up but not sure if its right or wrong, a lot of the videos have the dome down, Im starting to wonder if it's going to be worth taking it to a SS welder and getting it spot welded in a few places



Yeah i thought of that but concerned about possible warranty issues.

@krz I think there may be some variance in the bottom screens and or the rolling at the bottom of the maltpipe.
Some have had this happen with a small amount of grain - others can stack it to the top with no issue.
Not a big deal for me anyway, I'll just keep using it dome up.

@FarsideOfCrazy yes I normally do it that way too as the grain weight spreads the base out - but this time I did it as per the video.


----------



## bjay

I have used mine a few times with the dome facing up and no issues 
I can measure the lot when i get home tonight for a comparison to see if that is the problem


----------



## bjay

Okay looks like these are the size,s of my malt pipe ect
Bottom screen dia 318 m/m
Rolled bottom malt pipe minor dia 310 m/m
Malt pipe major dia 320 m/m 

B


----------



## altone

bjay said:


> Okay looks like these are the size,s of my malt pipe ect
> Bottom screen dia 318 m/m
> Rolled bottom malt pipe minor dia 310 m/m
> Malt pipe major dia 320 m/m
> 
> B


Thanks bjay I'll check mine when I get back home and post too.

Edit: spoke to the guys at KK today, they are posing the issue to the manufacturer.
Although the American (or Canadian?) guy I spoke to has done an 8 plus kilo grain batch with no issue and base dome down.

oh and ps. @wide eyed and legless thanks for the PRV and helix - looks good!


----------



## Abird89

I’ve done both my brews with the rolled edges up. No grain fell through
Did have a little grain pop around the sides of the top screen


----------



## krz

> ..
> .,..Although the American (or Canadian?) guy I spoke to has done an 8 plus kilo grain batch with no issue and base dome do



He is an American bloke from California. He's really nice and knows his stuff.
When you go in the shop just hang around for a quiet time (it might take some time), then have a chat with him, its worth it.

Just bought myself a 25kg sack of pale ale malt today. Im going to try 15kg in the Guten 50l in the next few days.
Apparently thats the max capacity


----------



## Beir Hearder

krz said:


> He is an American bloke from California. He's really nice and knows his stuff.
> When you go in the shop just hang around for a quiet time (it might take some time), then have a chat with him, its worth it.
> 
> Just bought myself a 25kg sack of pale ale malt today. Im going to try 15kg in the Guten 50l in the next few days.
> Apparently thats the max capacity


Be interested to know how that goes.


----------



## EmptyB

Beir Hearder said:


> Be interested to know how that goes.


How do you respond to the allegation that you are a Keg King employee?


----------



## malt and barley blues

Are Keg King employees not allowed to post? Is he the American guy?


----------



## EmptyB

malt and barley blues said:


> Are Keg King employees not allowed to post? Is he the American guy?


He's allowed to post, for sure, but he needs to be transparent about the affiliation.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

EmptyB said:


> He's allowed to post, for sure, but he needs to be transparent about the affiliation.


Why?


----------



## EmptyB

wide eyed and legless said:


> Why?


I really shouldn't need to explain why Beir Hearder, the #2 perpetrator of anti-Kegland garbage (behind you as #1 of course), should be honest about their affiliations.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

According to that logic so should the Keg Land employees come out and be honest, got to be blind not to see who they are.


----------



## EmptyB

I must be blind then..
I asked a simple question: how does Beir Hearder respond to the allegation (that means I didn't ask you WEAL). People are reading these threads for advice on product selection based on quality etc so affiliations need to be disclosed where there's a strong bias and this bias is as strong as it gets.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

EmptyB said:


> I must be blind then..
> I asked a simple question: how does Beir Hearder respond to the allegation (that means I didn't ask you WEAL). People are reading these threads for advice on product selection based on quality etc so affiliations need to be disclosed where there's a strong bias and this bias is as strong as it gets.


But I asked WHY it is the same for both camps why pick on one? Or are you showing your affiliation?
Coming over here from the other side for the sole purpose of derailing threads is not a good thing.


----------



## EmptyB

wide eyed and legless said:


> But I asked WHY it is the same for both camps why pick on one? Or are you showing your affiliation?


It's exactly the same for both camps. If someone were posting continually negative stuff about KegKing and they were called out for being a KegLand staff member, that member would be expected to respond. Just as I expect BH to respond. Note I never claimed he is or isn't, I asked them to simply respond.


wide eyed and legless said:


> Coming over here from the other side for the sole purpose of derailing threads is not a good thing.


It is also not a good thing for a major retailer such as KK creating an account here solely to slag off KL. Again I'm not saying that's true but the claim was made and BH should respond to it.
I came here to keep people honest in this KL vs KK garbage, in the absence of active moderators to keep threads on topic, otherwise people like BH will continue making false claims and generally be an infuriating troll.
I have no affiliation. I like good value. My contribution to the Intertap v Ultratap thread was the only useful one amongst a pile of crap, you yourself didn't help there either may I point out.


----------



## dibbz

This is the GUTEN thread, find somewhere else. No one has to respond to anything, especially here.

I've adopted the absorption (.77) (in options/advanced) and water/grain ratio (2.72) (in mash profile) values recommended for the GF around the place and my water volumes look better in BS3.

It seems to like to calc too much mash water volume otherwise. IMHO this is a BS3 bug because you put the max mash tun volume in, obviously you'd pivot on mash thickness if you are loading more grain, or it wont fit in the container.

Also when my malt pipe fell out it seems I had it in the wrong way  squinted at the manual a bit harder after WEALs post.


----------



## krz

Please keep on topic. Guten topic.


----------



## EmptyB

Yeah righto.


----------



## devoutharpist

Well.... that was interesting.

Anyway... i am still waiting for my replacement (and hopefully non-leaky) recirc pipe to return to me, but once i've got that next week i might be able to finally do a brew on the 50L. What does everyone use to do the first clean of the system? Run it through with some sodium perc and then rinse with some hot water?


----------



## dibbz

OK so I just needed to be more observant of the red dot next to mash volume needed on beersmith.

Pretty well just perc and a rinse for me.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

For the clean as dibbz says sodium perc or borate recirculate through the pump and pipe rinse and ready to go.
Just noticed a real good feature on the new Guten, the thermal cut off switch also has an inline safey cut off switch so if one fails there is a back up, can't remember if this feature is on my old one. Thumbs up to the manufacturers.


----------



## Lionman

For the first clean I put about 5L of water in it and half a cap of coles brand laundry booster. Heated it to 60C and ran thrugh the pump for abotu 10mins. while it was warming I gave it a scrub on the inside with a sponge.

I drained into a bucket out the tap, then rinsed with some fresh water.

I do the same thing after brewing and removing any hops from the bottom. Before storage I run a bit of starsan through the pump to help prevent any nasties from lurking in there.


----------



## devoutharpist

Thanks fellas. I'm guessing that the coles laundry booster is essentially sodium perc anyway? I'll pick some of that up and give it a go.

Maybe aus post will pull through with a miracle and i'll get my re-circulation pipe today... but I doubt it


----------



## Lionman

devoutharpist said:


> Thanks fellas. I'm guessing that the coles laundry booster is essentially sodium perc anyway? I'll pick some of that up and give it a go.
> 
> Maybe aus post will pull through with a miracle and i'll get my re-circulation pipe today... but I doubt it



They have 2 different ones, both I think the cheaper one is about 25% sodium percarbonate and the more expensive one is about 33%. I use it because its easy to get and we use it in the washing machine too.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Thought: purchased a 50cm one of these as a possible recirculation arm improvement for only $5.50 off eBay
Flexible but seems rigid and is all stainless. I’ll slap on a camlock on one end, saw off the other end and report back how it works in due time! Might even double as an effective whirlpool arm





https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/263943770769


----------



## altone

devoutharpist said:


> Thanks fellas. I'm guessing that the coles laundry booster is essentially sodium perc anyway? I'll pick some of that up and give it a go.
> 
> Maybe aus post will pull through with a miracle and i'll get my re-circulation pipe today... but I doubt it



Any of the laundry booster /oxy cleaners/nappy washes are good enough for the first clean, but you are better off getting a powdered brew wash for ongoing cleaning.
They are far more effective for getting rid of gunk buildup.


----------



## krz

I actually used a more "aggressive" cleaner for the first wash, like I do with all my equipment - first time.
Its called Tricleanium, it does more than what perc does.


----------



## chesl73

I did a brew this afternoon and as I was chilling with my immersion chiller I tried to put the pump on but it was blocked. I've had this now 2 out of 3 brews. When I was cleaning after pouring out the trub I noticed this (see pic) coming out the inlet hole. I was using a standard shop bought hop bag for the hop additions rather than the hop spider.
Any ideas and thoughts why this might be happening and what I can do to stop it?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

If you wish to put your pump on during chilling there is a filter which you can buy, otherwise use a paddle to move the wort around while chilling.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

chesl73 said:


> I did a brew this afternoon and as I was chilling with my immersion chiller I tried to put the pump on but it was blocked. I've had this now 2 out of 3 brews. When I was cleaning after pouring out the trub I noticed this (see pic) coming out the inlet hole. I was using a standard shop bought hop bag for the hop additions rather than the hop spider.
> Any ideas and thoughts why this might be happening and what I can do to stop it? View attachment 113775


That looks more like grain blocking the inlet than hops. Like weal said you need a filter on the inlet to run the pump after the mash.


----------



## chesl73

Yes, it does look like a bit of grain has got in there. Where can I buy the pump filter? And if I had one of those lauter helix then could I place it over the pump inlet and this would do the same and help keep the pump clear? The bazooka on the ball valve is annoying and I keep hitting it with the immersion chiller. Only a matter of time before it gets damaged and is unusable.
Where can I buy the lauter helix some of you guys have?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Pm weal for the helix. That filter he posted a pic of I'm not sure if it's available here. KK were rumored to be getting the whirlpool arm but I'm not sure about the filter. I don't know if the helix would work on the pump inlet, if anybody has tried, let us all know.


----------



## denemc

Does anyone know of an Australian supplier who would ship a Guten to NZ? The NZ supplier just tells me they are coming soon and they never arrive. I sold my 3v pending buy one, but if they don't come soon I'll have to go down the Robobrew 3 route, which I don't want to. Will still work out cheaper if I get it through Australia as they are going to be $690 here.

Or is there someone here that runs a business that I could order one, get it sent there, and then you on ship it for me?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

denemc said:


> Does anyone know of an Australian supplier who would ship a Guten to NZ? The NZ supplier just tells me they are coming soon and they never arrive. I sold my 3v pending buy one, but if they don't come soon I'll have to go down the Robobrew 3 route, which I don't want to. Will still work out cheaper if I get it through Australia as they are going to be $690 here.
> 
> Or is there someone here that runs a business that I could order one, get it sent there, and then you on ship it for me?


Have you tried Keg King, I know they have more stock on the way of the 40 litre but have 50 litre in stock. Apart from that you could go direct, send Sandy an email on Alibaba but check with KK first. 



chesl73 said:


> Yes, it does look like a bit of grain has got in there. Where can I buy the pump filter? And if I had one of those lauter helix then could I place it over the pump inlet and this would do the same and help keep the pump clear? The bazooka on the ball valve is annoying and I keep hitting it with the immersion chiller. Only a matter of time before it gets damaged and is unusable.
> Where can I buy the lauter helix some of you guys have?


Keg King sell the filter for the inlet and the helix but I cant understand how you got so many grain husks into the boil, don't pour the grist into the malt pipe from a bag, use a bucket where you have more control. Even when I do full volume mash I don't get barely 1 bit of grain into the boil, the pump on mash cycle spits the grain out back onto the top, if you see grain in the liquor coming up for the boil scoop it out with a sieve.
If you want to go down the helix route read up on no chill and the Argon method, makes life a lot easier, my next brew I will be chilling but just to see if a good whirlpool will keep the cold break from blocking the helix. I have skipped the whirlpool before with no chill and the wort still drained out easily.


----------



## bjay

I did a english bitter the other day, and ran the pump when i was chilling straight into the hop spider
and this caught a lot of crud,
The rest was caught by the other bazooka filter 
Thats what i will do in future worked nicely and cooled quicker or seemed to

B


----------



## altone

I use the Guten bazooka filter fitted to the pump inlet as I was sure it was inadequate for it's proposed role, and now I'm using one of WEAL's helixes on the tap.
Do you cover the overflow tube of the malt pipe with the little plastic screw on thing when adding grain?
And do you adjust the recirc pump flow so it doesn't go down the overflow pipe.


----------



## Leyther

altone said:


> I use the Guten bazooka filter fitted to the pump inlet as I was sure it was inadequate for it's proposed role, and now I'm using one of WEAL's helixes on the tap.
> Do you cover the overflow tube of the malt pipe with the little plastic screw on thing when adding grain?
> And do you adjust the recirc pump flow so it doesn't go down the overflow pipe.



Yes I use the white plastic cap to prevent grain going down the pipe


----------



## Pundy

Do keg king sell the helix’s through their website? I’ve taken a couple looks but haven’t been able to find it.


----------



## fdsaasdf

Pundy said:


> Do keg king sell the helix’s through their website? I’ve taken a couple looks but haven’t been able to find it.


no weal sells them


----------



## Pundy

fdsaasdf said:


> no weal sells them



I messaged Weal who said Keg King, as have others on this same thread... I’m starting to think into only, or I’m searching for wrong names maybe?


----------



## Milk-lizard84

I spoke to keg king not long ago and they said they will be stocking the lauter helix very soon


----------



## fdsaasdf

Pundy said:


> I messaged Weal who said Keg King, as have others on this same thread... I’m starting to think into only, or I’m searching for wrong names maybe?


 weal sold at least a few dozen to people here, so maybe he's sold them all


----------



## chesl73

Got any left WEAL ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

No, Keg King have them in stock now, if you message them and ask for a 'helix' they should respond.


----------



## Leyther

I was in KK a couple of weeks ago and did see them in stock then.


----------



## Lionman

If KK are starting to stock them then there is good chance they will filter down to LHBS who use them as a distro, no pun intended.


----------



## krz

Leyther said:


> I was in KK a couple of weeks ago and did see them in stock then.


I also saw them there 2 weeks ago, I didnt buy any as I have never had a problem with blockage, but probably will buy them next time I go "just in case".
I'm probably going there tomorrow, so I will update this thread when I get back.


----------



## krz

Guten 50L 2nd time review

I used the Guten for the 2nd time last Friday 5/10/18.
I created a Sierra Nevava Pale Ale clone, using a total of 11kg grain.
I ended up with 35 litres in the Guten (1.059) and 43 into the fermenter after water dilution and yeast starter, OG 1.048.

Some points:-

I placed the bazooka on top of the pipe (as per legless suggestion - thanks), this worked well
I bent the hop spider arm so that it sat more upright on the side of the Guten, it sat better but I wadnt paying atttention and at one point of time during the boil it overflowed again and I ended up with hops in the wort. I dont like the spider, so I bought a hop sock (from KK), its like a cylinder of mesh with both ends sealed, I'll use that next time.
I spilt a bit of water at one point in time, and a small puddle was on the floor. The window of the PCB had condensation in it!. When I turned off the pump I got a ZAP. It was not a 240V zap, more like touching an cattle electric fence, i.e. a 50hz pulse - not good though.
Will aim to do a full 15kg load of grain next brew day.


----------



## Redreuben

Hey guys, new to forum. Haven’t brewed for 13 years or more though gear is still in garage somewhere, electric boiler and cobbled together mash tun. I thought I might get some new gear now the world has cought up (wink)
Looking at a 50l Guten. My LHBS has Grainfather (nice) and Robobrew (cheap) where does the Guten sit as far as build quality ?
Next question, it looks like Promash has fallen by the wayside, from what I’m reading Beersmith is the preferred software now, would that be right ?


----------



## goatchop41

Redreuben said:


> Looking at a 50l Guten. My LHBS has Grainfather (nice) and Robobrew (cheap) where does the Guten sit as far as build quality ?



The build quality is great. It's quite not as refined as the GF, but what I've seen throughout heaps of forums and facebook groups is that the Guten certainly leaves the RB absolutely dead in the water, in terms of build quality, quality control and reliability


----------



## Abird89

Redreuben said:


> Hey guys, new to forum. Haven’t brewed for 13 years or more though gear is still in garage somewhere, electric boiler and cobbled together mash tun. I thought I might get some new gear now the world has cought up (wink)
> Looking at a 50l Guten. My LHBS has Grainfather (nice) and Robobrew (cheap) where does the Guten sit as far as build quality ?
> Next question, it looks like Promash has fallen by the wayside, from what I’m reading Beersmith is the preferred software now, would that be right ?



I’ve got a Robobrew v2 and a Guten 50L
The Guten is certainly more refined and nicer to use (for example it hasn’t cut me yet!)


----------



## EmptyB

Admittedly I'm tempted to grab a Guten to go alongside the Robo and do some comparison tests. The report of a small electric shock from the Guten warrants some feedback to KegKing however @krz


----------



## Nullnvoid

EmptyB said:


> Admittedly I'm tempted to grab a Guten to sit unused alongside the unused Robo and not do some comparison tests. The report of a small electric shock from the Guten warrants some feedback to KegKing however @krz



FTFY

I'll come up in 6 months and grab one of them off you. hahahaha


----------



## EmptyB

Nullnvoid said:


> FTFY
> 
> I'll come up in 6 months and grab one of them off you. hahahaha


Hey! One day I'll use them. Probably when my 3V rig shits the bed and I have a brewing itch to scratch.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Redreuben said:


> Hey guys, new to forum. Haven’t brewed for 13 years or more though gear is still in garage somewhere, electric boiler and cobbled together mash tun. I thought I might get some new gear now the world has cought up (wink)
> Looking at a 50l Guten. My LHBS has Grainfather (nice) and Robobrew (cheap) where does the Guten sit as far as build quality ?
> Next question, it looks like Promash has fallen by the wayside, from what I’m reading Beersmith is the preferred software now, would that be right ?


I do believe Promash was bought by the current owners of this site who also own Brewers Friend, there was some discussion a while back. If you haven't put your name in the draw for a freebie Brewers Friend Premium, do it now. (don't ask for a comparison they both have their good and bad points)
As for the Guten/Grainfather/Robobrew I think if Choice did a review on all three the Guten would come out on top taking in to consideration price point, build and performance. Yes the Grainfather has the extra bits and pieces but considering the price is 4-5 times dearer that tips the balance.
As for the RoboG3 not a lot of reviews out there apart from bent screens and one forum member had his blow first time he turned it on. Maybe Keg King should put a photo of the mountain of returns of the RoboG2, a big headache for the new management, but a good choice to go with the Guten


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Redreuben said:


> Hey guys, new to forum. Haven’t brewed for 13 years or more though gear is still in garage somewhere, electric boiler and cobbled together mash tun. I thought I might get some new gear now the world has cought up (wink)
> Looking at a 50l Guten. My LHBS has Grainfather (nice) and Robobrew (cheap) where does the Guten sit as far as build quality ?
> Next question, it looks like Promash has fallen by the wayside, from what I’m reading Beersmith is the preferred software now, would that be right ?



If you're looking at the larger guten i'd definitely check out the 65 litre robo. It looks, from the pics, to be a pretty good system. There are quite a few differences between it and the 35 litre version. I'd like to have have a look at one in the flesh to see what the build quality is like.

If you're looking at the smaller units then guten is the choice, even over the GF (higher cost).


----------



## Redreuben

Thanks for the informed replies guys. 
I’m thinking to use the system simply as an advanced mash tun because I like step mashing a lot and I brew with adjunct often as well, at mashout I would sparge with a rotating arm from an urn mounted higher and drain from under the grain bed into a boiler. 
I’m not keen on the raising of the grain bed idea because of (a) compaction and (b) aeration. 
What say you ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Redreuben said:


> Thanks for the informed replies guys.
> I’m thinking to use the system simply as an advanced mash tun because I like step mashing a lot and I brew with adjunct often as well, at mashout I would sparge with a rotating arm from an urn mounted higher and drain from under the grain bed into a boiler.
> I’m not keen on the raising of the grain bed idea because of (a) compaction and (b) aeration.
> What say you ?


What are you going to be brewing? If you are going to be using a fair amount of adjuncts 20-25% with a fully modified grain then you will need to do a protein rest. I just do a straight infusion for most of my beers.
Whichever way you intend to go about draining the grain bed either from underneath or lifting the grain bed you will get compaction, I have been using the no sparge system and dialing the mash thickness into Brewers Friend the pre boil OG and the OG comes out pretty much spot on.


----------



## Redreuben

I brew everything from lager to lambic, so i'm familiar with various malts, grains and adjunct, I am used to floating grain beds and an overhead sparge so thats where I'd like to restart.
I haven't used no sparge systems before as I was happy with the way recirculating cleared the wort, but that happens anyway with the way the Guten works so yes maybe a batch sparge of sorts will work, hmmm will have to look at that.
Thanks.
Just for your interest my old mash tun which was mades from a plastic fermenter bucket had two sight tubes side by side, one entered below the malt screen and one above. you could see how much suction was pulling on the grain bed by the height difference of the liquid in the two tubes. That system avoided a lot of stuck mashes.


----------



## chesl73

wide eyed and legless said:


> What are you going to be brewing? If you are going to be using a fair amount of adjuncts 20-25% with a fully modified grain then you will need to do a protein rest. I just do a straight infusion for most of my beers.
> Whichever way you intend to go about draining the grain bed either from underneath or lifting the grain bed you will get compaction, I have been using the no sparge system and dialing the mash thickness into Brewers Friend the pre boil OG and the OG comes out pretty much spot on.



WEAL - I've come from doing stove top BIAB which of course was no sparge. For my first 3 brews with the Guten I've been sparging but it takes time and is a bit of a pain. I'm thinking of forgetting the sparge and going full volume as you have stated. Does your efficiency drop off much? Any other considerations?
I've been getting about 70% so far which isn't brilliant but I'm fine with it. 

Cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

chesl73 said:


> WEAL - I've come from doing stove top BIAB which of course was no sparge. For my first 3 brews with the Guten I've been sparging but it takes time and is a bit of a pain. I'm thinking of forgetting the sparge and going full volume as you have stated. Does your efficiency drop off much? Any other considerations?
> I've been getting about 70% so far which isn't brilliant but I'm fine with it.
> 
> Cheers


OK same machine, different brewers, this is what works for me, your grind will be different to mine, but if you try grinding a little finer you should be able to achieve 80% efficiency. Dial in 70% efficiency on whichever program you are using then doing a full volume mash should come out close to the mark. You can tweak it from there.
Works well if the ABV is 5.5% or less, if it is a higher ABV you are after you will have to start adding more grain.


----------



## Leyther

My own personal experience with no sparge in the 30l was poor efficiency, I've gone back to sparging myself, yes it's longer but I also had issues with the full volume size, it was always up around the mash tun holes and I found when you turn on the recirc pump it went over them which meant some grain getting in the boil. I'm thinking about trying a higher volume mash and small sparge as a compromise


----------



## chesl73

Leyther said:


> My own personal experience with no sparge in the 30l was poor efficiency, I've gone back to sparging myself, yes it's longer but I also had issues with the full volume size, it was always up around the mash tun holes and I found when you turn on the recirc pump it went over them which meant some grain getting in the boil. I'm thinking about trying a higher volume mash and small sparge as a compromise



Yes, I was only thinking of doing it for some smaller batch sizes so I can comfortably incorporate the full volume without, as you say, worrying about it overflowing etc. On my initial batches I've been batch sparging but doing roughly 2/3 of the water in with the mash and 1/3 for sparging, sometimes more like 3/4 and a 1/4.


----------



## Redreuben

My assumption is that using an overhead hlt I can use the Guten as a masher/lauter and run off into another boiler, which then opens up the possibility of starting another mash straight away while the first one boils.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

Demo of installing the malt pipe, makes sense.


----------



## altone

Neil Buttriss said:


> Demo of installing the malt pipe, makes sense.



It does, I think that's Sarah from the UK group.
But if you look at most of the suppliers vids they show it the other way round.

It always works for me when assembled as per this video, it may reduce the total grain capacity a bit, but better safe than pouring 
stuff between containers if the bottom drops out


----------



## Neil Buttriss

Its how I have been doing it also, but a lot of guy's say they are losing the botttom out of it so this show it well. I so far have only brewed 3 times but have been all around the 5 kg mark


----------



## Redreuben

Redreuben said:


> My assumption is that using an overhead hlt I can use the Guten as a masher/lauter and run off into another boiler, which then opens up the possibility of starting another mash straight away while the first one boils.


Further; What do you think about using it purely as a mash tun by removing the malt pipe ? I guess the screens would have to be wider yes ?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Redreuben said:


> Further; What do you think about using it purely as a mash tun by removing the malt pipe ? I guess the screens would have to be wider yes ?


It would need a false bottom yes, but why go down that track with a single vessel brewery?


----------



## devoutharpist

Right, got my replacement recirc arm fitted. Did another test run and clean yesterday with no leaks. So i reckon i am finally ready to go. 

Anyone got any general guidelines around malt pipe overflow pipe size to kg grain? as in, roughly how many kg of grain does the small overflow pipe hold, vs using the overflow large pipe?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I generally use 5-6kgs of grain and generally use the 2 pipes together. I watch it and throttle the flow so it matches the liquid passing through the bed. If you were to just use the longer pipe I'd think that around 4kgs would be the most with this length on it's own.


----------



## Redreuben

wide eyed and legless said:


> It would need a false bottom yes, but why go down that track with a single vessel brewery?



Probably because I haven’t seen one working yet, I’ve seen an assembled one, (Robobrew) but not a working one
And I have a boiler and a hlt already. 
My “current “ system (the one stashed in the garage) has a stainless bucket that floats in the boiler for a mash tun, so lots of stirring and temperature checks and the lautering is done in a separate vessel again.
I’m moving some time in the new year so when the plastic has recovered I’m going shopping big time. 
Technology has gone ahead (and cheaper) big time since I did my last brew so some new stuff to get. 
Last time around I was the only brewer I new using electricity, everybody used gas. 
Here’s an idea for you just for fun, a Hermes system that used a coil of plastic tubing in a microwave cabinet. Turn on pump and microwave and zap ! Temperature boost. 
Ha ha ha ️ ️ ️ Totally mental right !
Any brewers in Perth with a Guten/Grainfather/Braumeister/Robo want a brew day assistant ?


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I b


devoutharpist said:


> Right, got my replacement recirc arm fitted. Did another test run and clean yesterday with no leaks. So i reckon i am finally ready to go.
> 
> Anyone got any general guidelines around malt pipe overflow pipe size to kg grain? as in, roughly how many kg of grain does the small overflow pipe hold, vs using the overflow large pipe?


I brewed yesterday with 4.5kg grain bill and only needed the longer pipe, I brewed with 5.25kg and needed both. I would think anything over about 4.75kg would need both pipes


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Redreuben said:


> Probably because I haven’t seen one working yet, I’ve seen an assembled one, (Robobrew) but not a working one
> And I have a boiler and a hlt already.
> My “current “ system (the one stashed in the garage) has a stainless bucket that floats in the boiler for a mash tun, so lots of stirring and temperature checks and the lautering is done in a separate vessel again.
> I’m moving some time in the new year so when the plastic has recovered I’m going shopping big time.
> Technology has gone ahead (and cheaper) big time since I did my last brew so some new stuff to get.
> Last time around I was the only brewer I new using electricity, everybody used gas.
> Here’s an idea for you just for fun, a Hermes system that used a coil of plastic tubing in a microwave cabinet. Turn on pump and microwave and zap ! Temperature boost.
> Ha ha ha ️ ️ ️ Totally mental right !
> Any brewers in Perth with a Guten/Grainfather/Braumeister/Robo want a brew day assistant ?


Guten is more user friendly than the BM, a couple of times with the BM I have forgotten to put in the bottom screen only realising after I have doughed in, impossible to do with the Guten. It is so easy to use you will have no need for your other equipment.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

So today's brew went well. I made a post in the robo vs guten thread about the controller. When the 60 min was nearly finished by the timer on my phone the controller still had a time remaining of 16 minutes. It seems to stop counting when the temp drops to 99c then when it gets back to 100 it continues. Do not go by what the built in controller says. I'm not sure what controller comes with the ones that KK are selling but the original controllers are a bit ordinary. Anyone who has got a new guten should run a timer side by side to check the time elapsed. I only use the controller in manual mode.

When the smart pid controllers are back in stock I'll probably get one of those to upgrade it.


----------



## Leyther

I brewed a Belgian yesterday and came up against a few issues, first the recipe called for 20m at 45C, I have the older model and it will not allow you to go below 50C, probably not a massive issue. The grain bill was 6.7kg and to be frank thats too big for this machine, I had to have the top plate off and the bazooka over the overflow but when using the pump with the recirc liquid and grain where flowing down the holes for the handle so I tried blocking them up, that just resulted in the liquid overflowing the top of the tun, end result was I had to turn the pump off for the majority of the mash, this netted me very poor efficiency (~55%) and I missed my target OG by quite a margin even after a 9L sparge.

I think its safe to say 6KG is the limit for these 40L machine and then you will need to have the top plate off and watch the recirc carefully. Maybe time for an upgrade to the bigger machine


----------



## goatchop41

Leyther said:


> this netted me very poor efficiency (~55%) and I missed my target OG by quite a margin even after a 9L sparge.



Well there is part of your issue. You've done a relatively small sparge, hence your extraction was sub-optimal. Yes, I know from your other posts on this thread that you prefer to do greater volume mashes, but you can't have your cake and eat it, especially with bigger grain bills.
You either have to accept that you need to use a smaller mash volume and a bigger sparge, or just accept that your efficiency will take a good hit.

The recirculation on a machine like this is not about extraction. Recirculation helps with wort clarity/ grain bed filtering and consistent mash temperatures. Yes, there is some extraction going on, but the mash is mostly about conversion, and the extraction happens in the sparge. If you're expecting that recirculating will do a lot of extraction, then you're probably going to be disappointed.


----------



## altone

Leyther said:


> I brewed a Belgian yesterday and came up against a few issues, first the recipe called for 20m at 45C, I have the older model and it will not allow you to go below 50C, probably not a massive issue. The grain bill was 6.7kg and to be frank thats too big for this machine, I had to have the top plate off and the bazooka over the overflow but when using the pump with the recirc liquid and grain where flowing down the holes for the handle so I tried blocking them up, that just resulted in the liquid overflowing the top of the tun, end result was I had to turn the pump off for the majority of the mash, this netted me very poor efficiency (~55%) and I missed my target OG by quite a margin even after a 9L sparge.
> 
> I think its safe to say 6KG is the limit for these 40L machine and then you will need to have the top plate off and watch the recirc carefully. Maybe time for an upgrade to the bigger machine



Err, I've been at a brew with 8.2Kg of grain in the Robobrew 35l and I've done a brew with 8Kg in the Guten 40l 
I blocked the handle holes, put some hose on the overflow pipe and wound the pump back so it didn't overflow but it worked ok and was at just under 70% efficiency. with an 8 litre sparge.

Having said that, it was a bit tricky to handle and if you're looking at regularly using grain bills much over 6Kg you'd be better off with the larger model for sure.


----------



## ABG

wide eyed and legless said:


> I do believe Promash was bought by the current owners of this site who also own Brewers Friend, there was some discussion a while back. If you haven't put your name in the draw for a freebie Brewers Friend Premium, do it now. (don't ask for a comparison they both have their good and bad points)
> As for the Guten/Grainfather/Robobrew I think if Choice did a review on all three the Guten would come out on top taking in to consideration price point, build and performance. Yes the Grainfather has the extra bits and pieces but considering the price is 4-5 times dearer that tips the balance.
> As for the RoboG3 not a lot of reviews out there apart from bent screens and one forum member had his blow first time he turned it on. Maybe Keg King should put a photo of the mountain of returns of the RoboG2, a big headache for the new management, but a good choice to go with the Guten



I have a Robobrew 3 and am super happy with it. Only about a dozen brews down so far, but aside from the issue you mentioned with wonky screens (which took less than 2 minutes to fix), it's been fantastic especially considering the bargain price. A mate has the GF and apart from all the nice to have, not need to have bells and whistles (and much bigger price ticket) the real advantage of the GF over the RB is head space. Doing a bigger IPA with 6.5 Kg of grain is definitely easier in the GF. Has anyone brewed side by side with all 3 to see how the Guten holds up in this regard?

Also, slightly off topic, why do you do no sparge WEAL? Isn't the sparge where most of the conversion takes place? Won't you be sacrificing efficiency in a fairly big way? I'm still pretty new to AG brewing, so curious as to what works and what doesn't and always like to challenge perceived wisdoms (often learning the hard way they're perceived wisdoms for a good reason ).


----------



## Leyther

altone said:


> Err, I've been at a brew with 8.2Kg of grain in the Robobrew 35l and I've done a brew with 8Kg in the Guten 40l
> I blocked the handle holes, put some hose on the overflow pipe and wound the pump back so it didn't overflow but it worked ok and was at just under 70% efficiency. with an 8 litre sparge.
> 
> Having said that, it was a bit tricky to handle and if you're looking at regularly using grain bills much over 6Kg you'd be better off with the larger model for sure.



How think is your mash with 8kg in it? assuming you would need ~23L of water to cover that (I had 24L in the 6.7kg), are you not then very close to the top of the tun? even dialing the pump to almost a trickle I found it would eventually come upto the holes and over the sides.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Leyther said:


> I brewed a Belgian yesterday and came up against a few issues, first the recipe called for 20m at 45C, I have the older model and it will not allow you to go below 50C, probably not a massive issue. The grain bill was 6.7kg and to be frank thats too big for this machine, I had to have the top plate off and the bazooka over the overflow but when using the pump with the recirc liquid and grain where flowing down the holes for the handle so I tried blocking them up, that just resulted in the liquid overflowing the top of the tun, end result was I had to turn the pump off for the majority of the mash, this netted me very poor efficiency (~55%) and I missed my target OG by quite a margin even after a 9L sparge.
> 
> I think its safe to say 6KG is the limit for these 40L machine and then you will need to have the top plate off and watch the recirc carefully. Maybe time for an upgrade to the bigger machine


I am going to lift my malt pipe higher utilising the 2 holes for the handles I bought some 10 mm s/steel althread and 4 s/steel nuts from Bunnings I am going to suspend the basket from the top of the kettle that way I can increase the liquor with out worrying about a flow over.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Also, slightly off topic, why do you do no sparge WEAL? Isn't the sparge where most of the conversion takes place? Won't you be sacrificing efficiency in a fairly big way? I'm still pretty new to AG brewing, so curious as to what works and what doesn't and always like to challenge perceived wisdoms (often learning the hard way they're perceived wisdoms for a good reason ).[/QUOTE]

I like to make things as simple as possible, 4.7 kg of grist to 28.5 litres of water 2 ways to do this to come up with the right numbers, on your program set your efficiency to 80 / 85% (whatever you are getting) and add more grain or set the efficiency to 70% (works for me) do a 90 minute mash and 90 minute boil no need to sparge and you should hit your target OG. If you are going for a bigger OG it will not work, just the beers around the 5% ABV mark


----------



## altone

Leyther said:


> How think is your mash with 8kg in it? assuming you would need ~23L of water to cover that (I had 24L in the 6.7kg), are you not then very close to the top of the tun? even dialing the pump to almost a trickle I found it would eventually come upto the holes and over the sides.



Actually 24l like you and yes, everything was pretty close to overflowing  Although the external liquid level was still an inch or more below the grain level.
Perhaps I'm milling a little differently to you but I could still get a reasonable flow from the pump without filling the maltpipe with liquor to the absolute top.

Like I said before - a bit tricky and not something you want to try on a regular basis.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

What I have noticed is 2 things, if I make a bigger beer example a 7% + EIPA and bottle in 500 ml bottles, I can have 2, 3 and I am generally told, "That's enough for you for tonight"
If I make a beer around 5% or less I can get away with having more, the only remark being, " You can't possibly still be thirsty" 
Since when was beer about thirst.


----------



## PTG

wide eyed and legless said:


> What I have noticed is 2 things, if I make a bigger beer example a 7% + EIPA and bottle in 500 ml bottles, I can have 2, 3 and I am generally told, "That's enough for you for tonight"
> If I make a beer around 5% or less I can get away with having more, the only remark being, " You can't possibly still be thirsty"
> Since when was beer about thirst.



I found the cure for that problem. 
Tell problem to move out!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

PTG said:


> I found the cure for that problem.
> Tell problem to move out!


I can't believe you got rid of Daisy.


----------



## goatchop41

krz said:


> The immersion cooler worked really well, I ended up buying some compression fittings and fit them to it with some male hose ends. This allowed me to connected 2 hoses to it with garden quick disconnects. The temp dropped from 100C to 45C in about 15 mins. Next time I will collect the hot water into another vessel to use for cleaning.



Hey mate, what size compression fittings did you use, and where did you get them?
I foolishly bought the robobrew compression fittings from Kegland, assuming that they would fit the coil that comes with the Guten, which they definitely do not!


----------



## devoutharpist

So finally did my first brew with the guten, used 7.2kg of grain and the 50L definitely handled it well.

Post mash gravity came in incredibly low, so i am guessing that this was refractometer operator error. Got pretty close to target, with a higher volume and a lower OG, still a bit of profile tweaking to do. Overall pretty good, definitely an easy unit to use once you work it out.


----------



## krz

goatchop41 said:


> Hey mate, what size compression fittings did you use, and where did you get them?
> I foolishly bought the robobrew compression fittings from Kegland, assuming that they would fit the coil that comes with the Guten, which they definitely do not!




These stainless-compression-fitting-to-1-2-inch-bsp-male


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

The immersion that comes with the guten is 3/8in or 10mm. I got some brass from my local pirtek. I think national home brew have some in SS the size that will fit the guten chiller.


----------



## PTG

The big green shed will stock brass fittings in 10mm


----------



## doodlemeister

I have been having nothing but issues with the Guten. I was somehow convinced by the KK staff that purchasing the Helix Coil Snake thing but this blocked up completely so I had to empty the whole boiler. Clear out this Helix Coil then start the boil again. 

On the second time I ran the Guten, the thing *stopped working all together *and got no power to the screen! 

I tried to return the unit and then was told I won't be able to return it. I've been extremely disappointed with the customer service and quite frankly, I would not recommend this POS. 

I wish I had purchased a Grainfather, Robobrew, or Braumeister as this is simply not what it cracked up to be for me and most certainly it has not been a good experience being a new brewer by using this... thing and then getting close to no customer service at all.


----------



## lespaul

Horrible news! Did they say they would fix the unit?


----------



## altone

doodlemeister said:


> I have been having nothing but issues with the Guten. I was somehow convinced by the KK staff that purchasing the Helix Coil Snake thing but this blocked up completely so I had to empty the whole boiler. Clear out this Helix Coil then start the boil again.
> 
> On the second time I ran the Guten, the thing *stopped working all together *and got no power to the screen!
> 
> I tried to return the unit and then was told I won't be able to return it. I've been extremely disappointed with the customer service and quite frankly, I would not recommend this POS.
> 
> I wish I had purchased a Grainfather, Robobrew, or Braumeister as this is simply not what it cracked up to be for me and most certainly it has not been a good experience being a new brewer by using this... thing and then getting close to no customer service at all.



Ok I'm confused.... I only use the helix coil when emptying the unit via the tap, so the boil would be well and truly over.
So far I've never had it block but others have.

If you've only just purchased it you may be able to DEMAND a refund but you'd have to check on that.
I'm sure KegKing would be happy to repair or replace it if the unit is faulty though, never had a problem with their after sales service myself.
I once got a faulty item and they swapped it for a new one straight away.


----------



## goatchop41

doodlemeister said:


> I have been having nothing but issues with the Guten. I was somehow convinced by the KK staff that purchasing the Helix Coil Snake thing but this blocked up completely so I had to empty the whole boiler. Clear out this Helix Coil then start the boil again.



What exactly do you mean here? Were you draining the Guten after the boil? Or doing something with the tap during the boil?
Also, don't blame the Guten for an issue with the helix. Issues with the helix are usually user-related errors too (I have one myself and have never had issues).



doodlemeister said:


> I tried to return the unit and then was told I won't be able to return it. I've been extremely disappointed with the customer service and quite frankly, I would not recommend this POS.



It is your consumer right/guarantee in Australia for a refund/replacement on faulty goods, which this is. So you can march back in there, show them your consumer rights and get a new one or a refund.
In saying that, this sounds very unlike KK. I noticed that you didn't mention any detail at all about why they said that they wouldn't replace it...sounds a bit suss to me...



doodlemeister said:


> I wish I had purchased a...Robobrew...



You would be much worse off with one of them. If you truly do have an issue and this isn't a made up post, you are one of the very few with an issue with the Guten, as opposed to the very many who have issues with the Robobrew


----------



## goatchop41

doodlemeister said:


> On the second time I ran the Guten, the thing *stopped working all together *and got no power to the screen!



If this is actually a real problem, open up the bottom of the unit and have a look at all of the connections (while it isn't plugged in at the wall, obviously!). Sometimes one can come a little loose and needs to be seated properly again to get it all working


----------



## devoutharpist

Very concerning, I appear to be one of the only other owners with a fault. They replaced the re-circulation pipe on my unit but i certainly would have raised hell if they didn't.


----------



## altone

devoutharpist said:


> Very concerning, I appear to be one of the only other owners with a fault. They replaced the re-circulation pipe on my unit but i certainly would have raised hell if they didn't.



And so you should! as per my last post, Keg King seem reasonable to deal with. If they were not I wouldn't buy stuff from them.

There are known weak points with the Guten that may need addressing within warranty if you use it a lot, eg. the crappy switches.
But if you search for problems with any 1v system you'll get lots of results. Be it Guten, Robobrew, Grainfather or even Braumeister

If money was not a consideration I'd personally buy a 50l Braumeister as I've seen one in operation and the quality level and the smart functions are awesome.
But as my little Guten cost 10% of a Braumeister I'm more than happy.
Already done 6 brews and no major issues.
edit: my last sentence made no sense so simplified it


----------



## devoutharpist

Now to shift topic... has anyone done any kettle souring in the Guten yet?


----------



## altone

devoutharpist said:


> Now to shift topic... has anyone done any kettle souring in the Guten yet?


Can't say I have, but if I was thinking of it I'd probably just drop the wort into my old urn instead of doing it in the Guten.
A Flanders Red just went onto my "to brew" list


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

doodlemeister said:


> I have been having nothing but issues with the Guten. I was somehow convinced by the KK staff that purchasing the Helix Coil Snake thing but this blocked up completely so I had to empty the whole boiler. Clear out this Helix Coil then start the boil again.
> 
> On the second time I ran the Guten, the thing *stopped working all together *and got no power to the screen!
> 
> I tried to return the unit and then was told I won't be able to return it. I've been extremely disappointed with the customer service and quite frankly, I would not recommend this POS.
> 
> I wish I had purchased a Grainfather, Robobrew, or Braumeister as this is simply not what it cracked up to be for me and most certainly it has not been a good experience being a new brewer by using this... thing and then getting close to no customer service at all.



Hmm this post does seem a bit suss. Only joined 2 weeks ago and 1 post ( which doesn't make a whole lot of sense). Even the location of the poster doesn't seem right.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

doodlemeister said:


> I have been having nothing but issues with the Guten. I was somehow convinced by the KK staff that purchasing the Helix Coil Snake thing but this blocked up completely so I had to empty the whole boiler. Clear out this Helix Coil then start the boil again.
> 
> On the second time I ran the Guten, the thing *stopped working all together *and got no power to the screen!
> 
> I tried to return the unit and then was told I won't be able to return it. I've been extremely disappointed with the customer service and quite frankly, I would not recommend this POS.
> 
> I wish I had purchased a Grainfather, Robobrew, or Braumeister as this is simply not what it cracked up to be for me and most certainly it has not been a good experience being a new brewer by using this... thing and then getting close to no customer service at all.


----------



## goatchop41

devoutharpist said:


> Now to shift topic... has anyone done any kettle souring in the Guten yet?



It's no my list to do. A friend has done a couple of kettle sours in his grainfather, so I was going to extract some knowledge from him.
My only concern would be bugs hiding in the pump afterwards, but I guess that a good clean with the pump running with PBW then sodium perc, then starsan would kill anything hiding in there (maybe a bit over the top, but it wouldn't be too much more effort)


----------



## Redreuben

How do you kettle sour ?


----------



## altone

goatchop41 said:


> It's no my list to do. A friend has done a couple of kettle sours in his grainfather, so I was going to extract some knowledge from him.
> My only concern would be bugs hiding in the pump afterwards, but I guess that a good clean with the pump running with PBW then sodium perc, then starsan would kill anything hiding in there (maybe a bit over the top, but it wouldn't be too much more effort)


If you're pumping PBW through - no need for the Perc 
PBW is approx 60% Perc anyway.


----------



## altone

Redreuben said:


> How do you kettle sour ?


Err. something like this :
https://learn.northernbrewer.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003010874-Kettle-Souring-Made-Easy

sorry, couldn't find a how to on AHB


----------



## Redreuben

That’s about what I thought, I read the same article when I googled
Just thought I’d ask to get a reference on the page. 
Apart from the occasional Berliner Weiss, sours wernt anthing when I brewed last, I did make lambic though using bottle dregs


----------



## walkerhomebrew

doodlemeister said:


> I have been having nothing but issues with the Guten. I was somehow convinced by the KK staff that purchasing the Helix Coil Snake thing but this blocked up completely so I had to empty the whole boiler. Clear out this Helix Coil then start the boil again.
> 
> On the second time I ran the Guten, the thing *stopped working all together *and got no power to the screen!
> 
> I tried to return the unit and then was told I won't be able to return it. I've been extremely disappointed with the customer service and quite frankly, I would not recommend this POS.
> 
> I wish I had purchased a Grainfather, Robobrew, or Braumeister as this is simply not what it cracked up to be for me and most certainly it has not been a good experience being a new brewer by using this... thing and then getting close to no customer service at all.




I am also "new" to brewing and had similar issue with the Guten. My screen goes blank. Does anyone else have this issue at all? 

I used to brew extract kits then took a long ass break from home brewing... around 10 years. Now just getting back into it, I have not been that impressed with this unit. If I leave it for about 2 hours it comes back to life but something seems to be wrong with the electronics in the brewery. It's bizarre.


----------



## Leyther

walkerhomebrew said:


> I am also "new" to brewing and had similar issue with the Guten. My screen goes blank. Does anyone else have this issue at all?
> 
> I used to brew extract kits then took a long ass break from home brewing... around 10 years. Now just getting back into it, I have not been that impressed with this unit. If I leave it for about 2 hours it comes back to life but something seems to be wrong with the electronics in the brewery. It's bizarre.




I had something similar happen to me a while back, there is a plug in the PCB that had come loose, if you open the PCB and see a plug undone then just plug it back in, it should be fairly obvious.


----------



## goatchop41

walkerhomebrew said:


> I am also "new" to brewing and had similar issue with the Guten. My screen goes blank.



Have a read a few posts up mate...
As I mentioned earlier, and Leyther mentioned above, check the PCB. Probably just a loose connection


----------



## Edd

Will be making the switch from BIAB to the Guten next month, just building up a stock of 'parts' to make sure I am ready to hit the ground running once I take delivery. Whats the general consensus for fitting hose to the immersion chiller? Looks as though the chiller is about 10mm pipe therefore if I just connect good old 12mm garden hose to the end of this with secure hose clamps is this going to be enough or should I really be looking at compression fittings? If so, and excuse a stupid question, are 12mm compression fittings fit for purpose here? Cheers


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Hi Edd. I did have a length of hose with hose clamps but no matter how tight i had them it still leaked. I ended up getting compression fittings from pirtek and no the 12mm ones won't fit. You need 3/8in or 10mm


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I just put ordinary garden hose on both sides, the first clamps I put on were the ones that you tighten by hand they leaked, Then I heated the hose up with a hair dryer (I also use a hairdryer for beer and gas line works a treat) and I only put the hose on far enough for the clamps to fit then while still soft I used 11-16mm screw on clamps. It worked well no leaks


----------



## Abird89

I jammed the hose on with the hand tightened clamps. Hasn’t leaked yet.


----------



## devoutharpist

i just went for hose clamps, went back and tightened them every few days before i brewed to make sure. had some very minor leakage but the connection sat outside of the kettle so it was fine.

If i did two clamps on each connection i reckon i might have cancelled it out


----------



## EmptyB

Discussions elsewhere about warranties prompted a question that I think is better suited here.

A common fault in the Guten is some of the electricals, in particular a dodgy switch. Purchasers of these units are apparently buying a replacement switch in advance, just waiting for the original to cark it. 

Does replacing this switch yourself, instead of sending in to Kegking for repair, void the warranty?


----------



## goatchop41

EmptyB said:


> Discussions elsewhere about warranties prompted a question that I think is better suited here.
> 
> A common fault in the Guten is some of the electricals, in particular a dodgy switch. Purchasers of these units are apparently buying a replacement switch in advance, just waiting for the original to cark it.
> 
> Does replacing this switch yourself, instead of sending in to Kegking for repair, void the warranty?



I would think that is a question that no one here could confidently answer, unless they some quite solid legal knowledge of consumer rights.

Maybe it would be like a new car - you can get it serviced by any mechanic that you want, you don't have to go to the dealership's mechanic, and this will not immediately void your cars warranty.
But if the mechanic doesn't complete the services or any repairs to the standard of the dealership/maker of the car (either by their work being poor quality, or by using crappy aftermarket parts instead of OEM), then the dealership/car maker has a legitimate case for that voiding your warranty on the basis of that.
KegKing would probably be able to make a decision based on whether or not it was replaced with an original switch, or something that was merely similar, and if the issue relating to the warranty claim could conceivably be related to/caused by the self repair of the switch.
But again, that's just me speculating and making an educated guess!


----------



## EmptyB

Agreed, nobody here can answer it, I'm hoping brewers throw that question to KK before pulling apart their Guten and causing themselves some trouble. Those brewers can hopefully report back on their experience to help others.
Seeing as this is a known defect I would hope that KK can apply a blanket approach, ie, that this specific switch can be replaced with no negative repercussions


----------



## wide eyed and legless

As I mentioned in the 'Robobrew screen of death' thread the only issues with the switch was myself and Leyther, I hardly think that is cause for concern and the switch issue has been already been addressed,
the next consignment will be having the covers over the switch, although that wasn't the issue with mine I think I could be a bit heavy handed causing the spring to shift.
The electrical issues are better left where they were on the "Robobrew screen of death' thread especially reading some of the reviews in America with the G3 Robobrew. More concerns with Robobrew electrical circuitry than the Guten.


----------



## EmptyB

I thought there were more than just the two faulty switches.. Maybe not. I'll take a look later today.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> As I mentioned in the 'Robobrew screen of death' thread the only issues with the switch was myself and Leyther, I hardly think that is cause for concern and the switch issue has been already been addressed,
> the next consignment will be having the covers over the switch, although that wasn't the issue with mine I think I could be a bit heavy handed causing the spring to shift.
> The electrical issues are better left where they were on the "Robobrew screen of death' thread especially reading some of the reviews in America with the G3 Robobrew. More concerns with Robobrew electrical circuitry than the Guten.



The switch packing it in is a VERY well known issue with the Guten/Ace/Klarstein/whatever you want to call it. Plenty of talk about it on Euro forums and FB groups, with lots of owners needing replacements. They all seemed to get theirs from the retailers who they bought the unit from. Doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prevalent now, they may have found a more robust switch to install from the get go.

Also, EmptyB has asked a relevant question that certainly does pertain to the Guten. What's your issue? He may have originally thought of it on another thread to do with the RB, but it's certainly relevant for the Guten too.
Why do you always seem to make unnecessary mentions of/crapping on the RB? No one here needs converting, we all know that the Guten is better. Perhaps give it a rest and we can continue discussing the Guten...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> The switch packing it in is a VERY well known issue with the Guten/Ace/Klarstein/whatever you want to call it. Plenty of talk about it on Euro forums and FB groups, with lots of owners needing replacements. They all seemed to get theirs from the retailers who they bought the unit from. Doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prevalent now, they may have found a more robust switch to install from the get go.
> 
> Also, EmptyB has asked a relevant question that certainly does pertain to the Guten. What's your issue? He may have originally thought of it on another thread to do with the RB, but it's certainly relevant for the Guten too.
> Why do you always seem to make unnecessary mentions of/crapping on the RB? No one here needs converting, we all know that the Guten is better. Perhaps give it a rest and we can continue discussing the Guten...


The only switches I am aware of here in Aus are mine and Leythers if you know of more post them in the thread, also there is no point getting the same switch from the retailers, the best option is to get a more robust switch from elsewhere.
The switch issue has been done to death $7.00 for new switches, unplug the fucked ones and plug in the new ones, easy peasy.
I don't think it is unnecessary to mention or crapping on the issues with the G2 Robobrew I have seen the mountain of returns, have you?
Also I didn't mention the downside of the G2, I didn't start the thread 'Robobrew blue screen of death', so why swing it to the Guten thread I know the Guten has superiority over the Robobrews G1,2 & 3 as do the purchasers who have had both the Robobrew and the Guten.
As far as I am concerned if someone wants to make any improvements on their Robobrew or Guten it is up to them.


----------



## altone

@goatchop41 You are right, the switch issue is well known and my hardly trained eye looking at the original ones see a potential issue as in lots of electrickery going through not so good quality switches.

@EmptyB You too are right - Don't mess with in warranty items and expect your warranty to still be valid. 

Also if you're not a licensed electrician you probably shouldn't be messing with switches at all - legally.

People really get polarized here and well I think that's the wrong approach.
.

I would never suggest anyone mess around with in warranty products - chase the supplier to fix any issues.
Having said that I do have a couple of switches of far better quality if I need them after warranty is done on my Guten.
And then the modifications will start too. I already have a few in mind.


----------



## chesl73

For future reference... Can you post some info/links to these superior switches?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

chesl73 said:


> For future reference... Can you post some info/links to these superior switches?


I got mine and Leythers from Jaycar a single rocker switch take the sides off each switch glue together and fit. Or you can look around for a double rocker switch.

The thing about warranty (which is different to guarantee) is the unit has to be sent back to the manufacturer, deemed as the wholesaler on imported goods, at the buyers expense, repair carried out, at cost, and sent back at buyers expense. for the sake of $7.00 is it worth it. I don't know if KK would do that but that is all they are required to do, though I would be surprised if they did in the purely in the interest of PR. Guarantee is at the sellers expense.
Also having a manufacturers warranty, gives some piece of mind as the manufacturer doesn't want units being returned, its in their own interest to make sure that the units are going to outlive their warranty.


----------



## pcmfisher

goatchop41 said:


> I would think that is a question that no one here could confidently answer, unless they some quite solid legal knowledge of consumer rights.
> 
> Maybe it would be like a new car - you can get it serviced by any mechanic that you want, you don't have to go to the dealership's mechanic, and this will not immediately void your cars warranty.
> But if the mechanic doesn't complete the services or any repairs to the standard of the dealership/maker of the car (either by their work being poor quality, or by using crappy aftermarket parts instead of OEM), then the dealership/car maker has a legitimate case for that voiding your warranty on the basis of that.
> KegKing would probably be able to make a decision based on whether or not it was replaced with an original switch, or something that was merely similar, and if the issue relating to the warranty claim could conceivably be related to/caused by the self repair of the switch.
> But again, that's just me speculating and making an educated guess!



Replacing the switch yourself would be more like _you_ servicing your new car yourself, correctly with genuine parts, but you not being a mechanic. Void warranty.


----------



## EmptyB

wide eyed and legless said:


> I got mine and Leythers from Jaycar a single rocker switch take the sides off each switch glue together and fit. Or you can look around for a double rocker switch.
> 
> The thing about warranty (which is different to guarantee) is the unit has to be sent back to the manufacturer, deemed as the wholesaler on imported goods, at the buyers expense, repair carried out, at cost, and sent back at buyers expense. for the sake of $7.00 is it worth it. I don't know if KK would do that but that is all they are required to do, though I would be surprised if they did in the purely in the interest of PR. Guarantee is at the sellers expense.
> Also having a manufacturers warranty, gives some piece of mind as the manufacturer doesn't want units being returned, its in their own interest to make sure that the units are going to outlive their warranty.


It's not a question of whether or not KK would do it though. You're avoiding my question again by droning on about the differences in warranty vs guarantee. Thankfully others have taken to answering the simple question, which is, will in-warranty Gutens have their KegKing warranties voided if brewers follow your repair instructions - and it seems that they will.

I also can't find any copy of Keg King's warranty policy, which is a bit weird


----------



## Lionman

wide eyed and legless said:


> The thing about warranty (which is different to guarantee) is the unit has to be sent back to the manufacturer, deemed as the wholesaler on imported goods, at the buyers expense, repair carried out, at cost, and sent back at buyers expense.



This isn't actually true. In Australia it is the retailer that is responsible for warranty. As a consumer you only need to return the goods to the retailer and if the then the retailer has the option to return it to the manufacturer at their expense, or have the goods repaired, replace the goods or offer a refund.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Lionman said:


> This isn't actually true. In Australia it is the retailer that is responsible for warranty. As a consumer you only need to return the goods to the retailer and if the then the retailer has the option to return it to the manufacturer at their expense, or have the goods repaired, replace the goods or offer a refund.


I didn't think the Guten went through any retailers, I was under the impression that the only option was to buy was from KK? Is that not the case? If the Guten was purchased from a retailer then it goes back to the place of purchase.


EmptyB said:


> It's not a question of whether or not KK would do it though. You're avoiding my question again by droning on about the differences in warranty vs guarantee. Thankfully others have taken to answering the simple question, which is, will in-warranty Gutens have their KegKing warranties voided if brewers follow your repair instructions - and it seems that they will.
> 
> I also can't find any copy of Keg King's warranty policy, which is a bit weird


As I said before get in touch with KK get it in writing what the warranty is. Also you could ask them the hypothetical question about the switch, they are the ones who make the policies no one else can answer for them. As for me giving instructions about carrying out repairs themselves which post is that in? It is entirely up to the purchaser whether they carry out repairs, if they believe they are not capable then it is best they don't do it.


----------



## EmptyB

wide eyed and legless said:


> As I said before get in touch with KK get it in writing what the warranty is


Yup, you already said that, and I already answered;


EmptyB said:


> Agreed, nobody here can answer it, I'm hoping brewers throw that question to KK before pulling apart their Guten and causing themselves some trouble. Those brewers can hopefully report back on their experience to help others.
> Seeing as this is a known defect I would hope that KK can apply a blanket approach, ie, that this specific switch can be replaced with no negative repercussions


----------



## EmptyB

wide eyed and legless said:


> As for me giving instructions about carrying out repairs themselves which post is that in?


"Instructions" is a strong word to use here, you've discussed replacing the switch with Leyther earler in this very thread.
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/guten.94389/page-31
Also here you discuss replacing the switch and placing it elsewhere on the unit
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/robobrew-v3-vs-guten.99025/#post-1517398


wide eyed and legless said:


> When I replaced my switch ($7)
> I put the pump switch to the front, hell of a lot better.



Again, all of this is fine, but you should be clarifying the implications of doing this work on an in-warranty unit, and if you don't know those implications, clarify that instead.
KegKing might as well be slipping you some dollars under the table for all the pro-Guten and anti-Robobrew crap you post, so people will inevitably see you as a Guten expert and follow your lead on fixing these issues, so make sure to make these points clear.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

As I have said more than once the unit is almost 2 years old and out of warranty, as is Leythers.


----------



## EmptyB

Then it seems we both sound like a broken record. I've clarified this repeatedly.

Customers buying a *new Guten* may read your comments re self-repair and take it upon themselves to do the same if they encounter this defect. You never mentioned warranty status in your posts, and in fact you discussed self-repair amongst discussion re new Gutens, so it needs to be clarified that doing so would void the warranty of the unit.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I read the Guten thread to try and improve my use of it not to read the above sniping, anyone would think you are married. My only suggestion is that if you have a problem with the unit contact KK and sort it out.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I can't understand why you are so worried about anyone who may have bought a Guten, or are in the process of getting one, if you have any questions direct them to KK.


----------



## EmptyB

I'm worried about people accidentally voiding their warranties, it's really not that difficult to comprehend.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

EmptyB said:


> I'm worried about people accidentally voiding their warranties, it's really not that difficult to comprehend.


It is when you have the Robobrew, that is when I would really start worrying, ask Sydney Harbour Bridge, he's barely slept a wink since his Robobrew fell off the perch.


----------



## Redreuben

I’m thinking of buying a Guten in the new year, the comments about dubious switches were noted a while back, and I’ve seen the tin can quality of the Robobrew and the exey Grandfather and the elitist Braumeister. 
In due course I’ll put my big boy pants on and make my decision. 
Now can we move on ?


----------



## pnorkle

wide eyed and legless said:


> I can't understand why you are so worried about anyone who may have bought a Guten, or are in the process of getting one, if you have any questions direct them to KK.


I don't think he's worried about people who have bought a Guten, it looks to me that he's worried about the advice you are giving. It looks like worry that's warranted.


----------



## Lionman

wide eyed and legless said:


> I didn't think the Guten went through any retailers, I was under the impression that the only option was to buy was from KK? Is that not the case? If the Guten was purchased from a retailer then it goes back to the place of purchase.



I bought mine from Brewmart in Perth, so there are HBS stocking them. Pretty much all the shops that use KK as a distro will stock them, it either that or move to using KL as a distro to get hold of the Robobrew again.

If you buy it from KK then they are the retailer. Place of purchase = retailer. Best reason to buy locally is that if it breaks you can take it back to the shop.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

pnorkle said:


> I don't think he's worried about people who have bought a Guten, it looks to me that he's worried about the advice you are giving. It looks like worry that's warranted.


Point me to the advice I have given that is worrying! I will be happy to reply.


----------



## pcmfisher

Lionman said:


> I bought mine from Brewmart in Perth, so there are HBS stocking them. Pretty much all the shops that use KK as a distro will stock them, it either that or move to using KL as a distro to get hold of the Robobrew again.
> 
> If you buy it from KK then they are the retailer. Place of purchase = retailer. Best reason to buy locally is that *if it breaks you can take it back to the shop*.



And that's the reason a lot of brew shops won't stock either of these machines.....


----------



## EmptyB

pcmfisher said:


> And that's the reason a lot of brew shops won't stock either of these machines.....


Yup, costs a fraction of the price of either unit to set up BIAB. Feels great doing it yourself rather than buying a bespoke system. A good LHBS is a great source of advice in building them too.


----------



## Lionman

pcmfisher said:


> And that's the reason a lot of brew shops won't stock either of these machines.....



Not all of them have to, as long as the bigger ones do in each state then people have options. The bread and butter of most stores is consumables, hops, grain, yeast etc.

BIAB is fine, but it can be a hassle to set up a machine that is as effective as the off the shelf systems. Some people would rather spend their time brewing than DIYing a brewery and are willing to pay for that.

The robobrew has really changed the face of all grain. so many more people now brewing with grains has seen more competition in the HBS space and so more options for brewers. There is now more variety of hops and malts available than ever before, mostly because all grain si so much more accessible.


----------



## awfulknauful

Agree with Lionman, I got sold on the Guten after reading this thread, it was a 2 horse race, Guten or GF, certainly going to make my brewing life easier.


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is when you have the Robobrew, that is when I would really start worrying, ask Sydney Harbour Bridge, he's barely slept a wink since his Robobrew fell off the perch.



It's true but not because of the thing failing, it is an early model and made in China so is by default shit anyway. Mrs HB and son of HB are giving me grief at the moment and work are making unreasonable demands on me which makes the prospect of a beer famine even grimmer.

My predicament with the robobrew is that I shelled out $490 ish for this a couple of years ago, the robobrew V3 is a little bit cheaper, the guten is about the same, they will probably do the same job but as I love brewing beer I don't want to hand over the control to a circuit board, I'm quite happy to switch things on and off, turn valves, measure pH, gravity etc.it's all part of the joy of brewing for me so I am leaning towards my cunning plan of buying the kegland 35L urn and grafting my robobrew organs into it to make a "Frankenbrew" or ghetto robobrew.


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

awfulknauful said:


> Agree with Lionman, I got sold on the Guten after reading this thread, it was a 2 horse race, Guten or GF, certainly going to make my brewing life easier.



A friend of mine who started me rock-climbing told me, "when life ceases to be a struggle it looses its meaning" I think you need to look at why we brew our own beer, you can definitely buy good beer in Australia these days, I doubt it makes economic sense.


----------



## Redreuben

Economics has **** all to do with it. It’s the act/art of creation.


----------



## Lionman

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I don't want to hand over the control to a circuit board,



None of these machines can control anything. You are in control. You can set timers etc but its still you that control it. If you don't like it you can still just switch them on and off manually.

We aren't talking about a Brewie here.


----------



## Redreuben

PERTH.
Anyone in Perth with a Guten, or indeed any of the single vessel units, I’d very much like to invite myself to your next brew day if possible ?


----------



## Lionman

Redreuben said:


> PERTH.
> Anyone in Perth with a Guten, or indeed any of the single vessel units, I’d very much like to invite myself to your next brew day if possible ?



Brewmart in Bayswater often do brewdays on Saturdays. They did a side by side brew with Robobrew and Guten a while back.


----------



## Redreuben

Lionman said:


> Brewmart in Bayswater often do brewdays on Saturdays. They did a side by side brew with Robobrew and Guten a while back.


Aah good tip, thank you muchly !


----------



## pnorkle

Also @Redreuben - talk to Roy at TWOC - I know they have brew days on Sundays - he used to use a 3V setup, but that was quite a few years ago, he may well be using a single vessel for them these days. PM me if you want his email addy.


----------



## markp

Twoc has got a brew day planned this Sunday starting at 9am, he does both 3v and grainfather.


----------



## markp

Redreuben said:


> PERTH.
> Anyone in Perth with a Guten, or indeed any of the single vessel units, I’d very much like to invite myself to your next brew day if possible ?



What area are you in redreuben ?


----------



## Redreuben

markp said:


> What area are you in redreuben ?


I’m near Freo so twoc is my local, but happy to visit other brewers.


----------



## Redreuben

Last visit to TWOC a few weeks ago he had grainfather and Robobrew so I’ll be doing the rounds. I’m not in a hurry I still have the old kit which made some extraordinary beer.


----------



## Redreuben

And again,
Anybody who has beer smith as well ? ++


----------



## dibbz

What about beersmith? Doesn't everybody have it?


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

Lionman said:


> None of these machines can control anything. You are in control. You can set timers etc but its still you that control it. If you don't like it you can still just switch them on and off manually.
> 
> We aren't talking about a Brewie here.



I like to cut my own firewood and don't like power windows or electronic ignition in cars, never mind automatic transmission, bluetooth GPS and the spiraling trend of stupefying gadgets they stuff into cars nowadays. I play five string banjo and love bluegrass.

Sometimes I think I should have been born Amish, I wish I lived a pastoral existence and machines didn't cool me out and go beep in my ear. Me and Neil.


----------



## goatchop41

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I like to cut my own firewood and don't like power windows or electronic ignition in cars, never mind automatic transmission, bluetooth GPS and the spiraling trend of stupefying gadgets they stuff into cars nowadays. I play five string banjo and love bluegrass.
> 
> Sometimes I think I should have been born Amish, I wish I lived a pastoral existence and machines didn't cool me out and go beep in my ear. Me and Neil.



Good on you.
It means absolutely shit all to the rest of us though. It doesn't contribute to this thread in any meaningful form, besides telling us that despite your backwards ways, you still for some weird reason bought a robobrew.
This isn't a thread about your aspirations to be a luddite...


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

goatchop41 said:


> Good on you.
> It means absolutely shit all to the rest of us though. It doesn't contribute to this thread in any meaningful form, besides telling us that despite your backwards ways, you still for some weird reason bought a robobrew.
> This isn't a thread about your aspirations to be a luddite...


Er yes I think so or not maybe.


----------



## Redreuben

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I play five string banjo and love bluegrass.



It all makes sense now.


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

Redreuben said:


> It all makes sense now.



Thanks I hope you will receive revelation


----------



## markp

Redreuben said:


> I’m near Freo so twoc is my local, but happy to visit other brewers.



I’m in hamersley and won’t be brewing for a few weeks but if your keen I’ll sing out.


----------



## Redreuben

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> Thanks I hope you will receive revelation


Oh I’m regularly reviled!


----------



## awfulknauful

Did anyone from here purchase the 28.4 L Guten Stainless Steel conical fermenter I noticed it was mentioned in earlier posts, just wondered if someone could put a picture up.


----------



## altone

awfulknauful said:


> Did anyone from here purchase the 28.4 L Guten Stainless Steel conical fermenter I noticed it was mentioned in earlier posts, just wondered if someone could put a picture up.


What? 
Damn I'd better go read back or maybe just visit alibaba I'm thinking of getting a new fermenter.


----------



## altone

Anyone have any info about this https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.9.37103d7cHNZCmm
Looks alright but who knows.
What would the shipping/import etc costs likely run to?
If they are high I might get local shipping to Shanghai and get all the extra bits taken off so it get's down to Airline luggage limits -assuming overall size isn't too big.
Wife and her sister are regular fliers to and from Shanghai / Melbourne


----------



## Leyther

Seriously cheap, I just bought a SS brewtech 7 for around $500 I love it but feckn me thats a lot of dough when your see this


----------



## devoutharpist

altone said:


> Anyone have any info about this https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.9.37103d7cHNZCmm
> Looks alright but who knows.
> What would the shipping/import etc costs likely run to?
> If they are high I might get local shipping to Shanghai and get all the extra bits taken off so it get's down to Airline luggage limits -assuming overall size isn't too big.
> Wife and her sister are regular fliers to and from Shanghai / Melbourne



i am officially interested in something like this. My plastic ones are probably due for replacement soon. 

Should be bottling my first Guten brew this week, but already tasted good going into secondary yesterday. Then onto the second brew once i have fridge space, hopefully hitting the pre-boil targets a bit better this time...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The conical's from Guten are being looked into.


----------



## lespaul

Can I ask what was the introductory price on the unit when it came out?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> Can I ask what was the introductory price on the unit when it came out?


$380.


----------



## lespaul

50lt yeh?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

50 litre is $699 with free thermal jacket, more in this month.


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> The conical's from Guten are being looked into.



I couldn't even find them, you got a link at all?

Anyway for me they'd have to be darned cheap compared to the one's available locally.
Otherwise I'll have to stick to kegmenters.


----------



## sp0rk

If they're sub $300 & pressurizable I'd maybe consider one


----------



## wide eyed and legless

altone said:


> I couldn't even find them, you got a link at all?
> 
> Anyway for me they'd have to be darned cheap compared to the one's available locally.
> Otherwise I'll have to stick to kegmenters.


I have never actually seen one so can't comment, forgotten all about them until someone had told me that Guten also had a conical fermenter and getting a sample.

sp0rk, I doubt they will be pressurized, but knowing that they follow the threads on here one never knows.


----------



## Lionman

any links? Cant see one on their alibaba page...


----------



## krz

sp0rk said:


> If they're sub $300 & pressurizable I'd maybe consider one


That one in the pic is not pressurisable


----------



## Wadsey

pnorkle said:


> I don't think he's worried about people who have bought a Guten, it looks to me that he's worried about the advice you are giving. It looks like worry that's warranted.



Everyone’s an adult and I’m sure they can make the decision as to do they fix it themselves or send it off to be assessed by KK. 
Some peeps just need to relax and let people make their own decisions in life.


----------



## Wadsey

altone said:


> Anyone have any info about this https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.9.37103d7cHNZCmm
> Looks alright but who knows.
> What would the shipping/import etc costs likely run to?
> If they are high I might get local shipping to Shanghai and get all the extra bits taken off so it get's down to Airline luggage limits -assuming overall size isn't too big.
> Wife and her sister are regular fliers to and from Shanghai / Melbourne



Might need someone with experience ordering overseas to enquire and maybe advertise an EOI for a bulk order?


----------



## awfulknauful

EmptyB said:


> It's not a question of whether or not KK would do it though. You're avoiding my question again by droning on about the differences in warranty vs guarantee. Thankfully others have taken to answering the simple question, which is, will in-warranty Gutens have their KegKing warranties voided if brewers follow your repair instructions - and it seems that they will.
> 
> I also can't find any copy of Keg King's warranty policy, which is a bit weird


It is on their website also on the Guten itself.


----------



## EmptyB

awfulknauful said:


> It is on their website also on the Guten itself.


Link would be handy here. If it's there now, they've just put it up


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Brewed today, 23 litre Fullers London Pride clone, tried the lodging the malt pipe a little higher to get the full volume mash, handle holes blocked, worked a treat, as I have mentioned before don't go trying this with higher Plato beers.
Braumeister handle came in handy for lifting the malt pipe.






EmptyB said:


> Link would be handy here. If it's there now, they've just put it up


I have asked them about the 1 year warranty, unconditional, abuse of system withstanding.


----------



## ABG

wide eyed and legless said:


> Brewed today, 23 litre Fullers London Pride clone, tried the lodging the malt pipe a little higher to get the full volume mash, handle holes blocked, worked a treat, as I have mentioned before don't go trying this with higher Plato beers.
> Braumeister handle came in handy for lifting the malt pipe.
> View attachment 114069
> View attachment 114070
> 
> 
> I have asked them about the 1 year warranty, unconditional, abuse of system withstanding.



Where did you get the mesh thingamijigger (I think that's the technical term for it) at the top of the malt pipe? One of them would be great at the top of the malt pipe on my R3.


----------



## fdsaasdf

ABG said:


> Where did you get the mesh thingamijigger (I think that's the technical term for it) at the top of the malt pipe? One of them would be great at the top of the malt pipe on my R3.


it just looks like a regular bazooka / hop screen to me


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ABG said:


> Where did you get the mesh thingamijigger (I think that's the technical term for it) at the top of the malt pipe? One of them would be great at the top of the malt pipe on my R3.


fdsaadf is correct it is the bazooka which is supplied with the Guten, most who have got the helix as the filter put the bazooka on the top of the overflow pipe. I have silicone tube jammed up mine so only the top 18mm is the overflow.


----------



## ABG

wide eyed and legless said:


> fdsaadf is correct it is the bazooka which is supplied with the Guten, most who have got the helix as the filter put the bazooka on the top of the overflow pipe. I have silicone tube jammed up mine so only the top 18mm is the overflow.



Thanks @wide eyed and legless. Are they available as a separate item for purchase anywhere?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ABG said:


> Thanks @wide eyed and legless. Are they available as a separate item for purchase anywhere?


Pretty sure most HB stores should have something that would suit, even eBay.


----------



## awfulknauful

wide eyed and legless said:


> Brewed today, 23 litre Fullers London Pride clone, tried the lodging the malt pipe a little higher to get the full volume mash, handle holes blocked, worked a treat, as I have mentioned before don't go trying this with higher Plato beers.
> Braumeister handle came in handy for lifting the malt pipe.
> View attachment 114069
> View attachment 114070



Looks like you use the top screen. Doesn't seem warranted with that set up.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

awfulknauful said:


> Looks like you use the top screen. Doesn't seem warranted with that set up.


Yes I did use the top screen and it was a devil to get in, but you are right it doesn't need to be there, no where for any loose grain to go.


----------



## Lionman

Nice trick. I tried it last night while I brewed 40L of Motueka Summer Ale.

Works pretty well.


----------



## altone

Hope this is on topic enough.
I've done and tasted 5 brews of my crappy APA in the Guten now plus a few others 
Each one seems the same to me, something I couldn't do with BIAB.
One would be more bitter or less/more malt coming through etc.
Apart from the bottom screen problem which is fixed by turning it dome up, I've had no major issues.
I have had a pump block but it was caused by grain going down the overflow pipe.
I now use the crappy bazooka supplied with the unit on top of the overflow.
I have a lauter helix attached to the bottom tap.

It works and works quite well.

I'm more than happy with the purchase and even if it dies a little past warranty I think I'll have got my moneys worth.

The repeatability is what I really like the most, but being able to dial in all the stuff you want to do and not have to worry so much about it is great too.

Only thing I don't like now is that lid. It's going to get replaced with something more useful.


----------



## Lionman

altone said:


> Only thing I don't like now is that lid. It's going to get replaced with something more useful.



Its the pipe from the pump that sucks. sick of taking it off and on to get the lid off and on.

I think I will just get a male camlock with a barb on it and fit a length of silicone hose and use that instead. WIll just need to make sure the silicone hose will fit in the lid hole.


----------



## Abird89

Lionman said:


> Its the pipe from the pump that sucks. sick of taking it off and on to get the lid off and on.
> 
> I think I will just get a male camlock with a barb on it and fit a length of silicone hose and use that instead. WIll just need to make sure the silicone hose will fit in the lid hole.



The silicone hose on mine doesn’t fit through the gap.. so i don’t end up using the lid


----------



## Lionman

Abird89 said:


> The silicone hose on mine doesn’t fit through the gap.. so i don’t end up using the lid



Another option might be to cut a section of the stock pipe out and replace it with some silicone hose that it's flexible.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I never remove the lid during mashing, I don't use any silicone hose either, can't see any point.


----------



## Abird89

It's just so the wort doesn't shoot down onto the plate at force. I did a 20l batch in my 40l Guten on the weekend and there was quite a distance between the arm and the grain bed


----------



## altone

Abird89 said:


> It's just so the worst doesn't shoot down onto the plate at force. I did a 20l batch in my 40l Guten on the weekend and there was quite a distance between the arm and the grain bed


Yep I like to run silicon hose down to the plate too rather than it splashing from the arm.
I have the arm close to the edge and just balance the lid on the top not using the hole.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Abird89 said:


> It's just so the wort doesn't shoot down onto the plate at force. I did a 20l batch in my 40l Guten on the weekend and there was quite a distance between the arm and the grain bed


I tend to forget not everyone does full volume mash, the end of my return pipe is constantly under the surface of the wort. I do only have the return on half choke though.


----------



## awfulknauful

Went to pick up my neoprene jacket for the Guten today, looks pretty snazzy. Not sure about the whirlpool arms, don't want to get to extravagant, mortgage repayments plus other outgoings, gonna stick with the paddle for now


----------



## altone

awfulknauful said:


> Went to pick up my neoprene jacket for the Guten today, looks pretty snazzy. Not sure about the whirlpool arms, don't want to get to extravagant, mortgage repayments plus other outgoings, gonna stick with the paddle for now


My jacket might not be snazzy but it didn't cost me anything


----------



## awfulknauful

altone said:


> My jacket might not be snazzy but it didn't cost me anything


Yeh I did think about making one but work commitments ruled that out. Maybe if I had I could have bought the whirpool attachment.


----------



## altone

Just realized I have this too - I could make the jacket shiny 




As for the whirlpool attachment, don't see a need for it personally I use a hop spider and don't get too much crud in the bottom of the Guten. Obviously if you're doing high gravity beers it might be worthwhile idk.


----------



## devoutharpist

So i'm two brews down in the Guten 50L now and one thing i have noticed is that i'm getting about 63% mash efficiency, was hoping i would be getting a little more than that.

What has everyone else been getting? Both brews have been between ~7-8kg of grain and the one i did on the weekend (Black IPA) basically had the Guten filled up to the brim.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> So i'm two brews down in the Guten 50L now and one thing i have noticed is that i'm getting about 63% mash efficiency, was hoping i would be getting a little more than that.
> 
> What has everyone else been getting? Both brews have been between ~7-8kg of grain and the one i did on the weekend (Black IPA) basically had the Guten filled up to the brim.


You can loose efficiency with a large grain bill, the other thing to do is check the crush of your grain.


----------



## altone

Well, I only have the smaller Guten but if I scale your grain to a smaller brew I would get about 73% efficiency.
Maybe your crush is a tad too big? ie. The gap is a little larger than optimum.
1v seems to allow a slightly finer crush in my experience.

edit: as WEAL said, big grain bill the eff will suffer.


----------



## fdsaasdf

maybe OT but I hit 75% efficiency with my first robobrew 65L mash on the weekend, even with a sub-optimal crush of the 11kg of grain


----------



## lespaul

Just got a Guten and cleaning it out. After ramping to 90° and then cleaning I've got some marks on the element. Any idea what it is/how to fix it/if it's a problem?


----------



## fdsaasdf

what did you clean it with?


----------



## lespaul

Sodium percabonate as directed by the manual


----------



## devoutharpist

altone said:


> Well, I only have the smaller Guten but if I scale your grain to a smaller brew I would get about 73% efficiency.
> Maybe your crush is a tad too big? ie. The gap is a little larger than optimum.
> 1v seems to allow a slightly finer crush in my experience.
> 
> edit: as WEAL said, big grain bill the eff will suffer.



It could be the crush, but i get milled at the LHBS, could be something to investigate. I did consider it could have been the grian bill, but given the volume of the 50L i would have assumed something a bit better. I will keep tabs on future brews and see how i go. 



lespaul said:


> Just got a Guten and cleaning it out. After ramping to 90° and then cleaning I've got some marks on the element. Any idea what it is/how to fix it/if it's a problem?



Have you tried vinegar? I put a bit on some paper towel and that has gotten some scorch marks off mine


----------



## nosco

lespaul said:


> Just got a Guten and cleaning it out. After ramping to 90° and then cleaning I've got some marks on the element. Any idea what it is/how to fix it/if it's a problem?View attachment 114187


I have had the same marks with mine from time to time. Not sure what it is. Maybe something in my water. After a clean with perc, if the marks appear I just scrub them off with a green scrubby and water. After a rinse and dry they don't back. Until after another brew and clean 

It's nothing to worry about. A citric acid soak now and then is good for them too.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

devoutharpist said:


> So i'm two brews down in the Guten 50L now and one thing i have noticed is that i'm getting about 63% mash efficiency, was hoping i would be getting a little more than that.
> 
> What has everyone else been getting? Both brews have been between ~7-8kg of grain and the one i did on the weekend (Black IPA) basically had the Guten filled up to the brim.



How much water was in the mash and how much for the sparge?


----------



## awfulknauful

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> How much water was in the mash and how much for the sparge?


Was thinking that myself, quote (full to the brim) so maybe a no sparge, that will loose efficiency.

lespaul could be the high temp together with the sodium percarbonate I don't go above 60 C works well at that.


----------



## Lionman

devoutharpist said:


> So i'm two brews down in the Guten 50L now and one thing i have noticed is that i'm getting about 63% mash efficiency, was hoping i would be getting a little more than that.
> 
> What has everyone else been getting? Both brews have been between ~7-8kg of grain and the one i did on the weekend (Black IPA) basically had the Guten filled up to the brim.



7KG in a full volume batch in a 50L guten is not a big grain bill. that would only be about 1050 or so OG in a 40L batch.

I have been getting around 80% brewhouse efficiency so pretty high mash efficiency on most of my brews. That included a batch with an 11KG grist.

Crush should be pretty fine with a decent amouont of flour forming. For 7KG you only need to roughly half fill with strike water. Aim for about 3:1 water to grain. So 21L water, 7KG grain. 
Make it slightly thicker for bigger grist so it actually fits in.
This will ensure you have enugh space for a decent sparge. Sparge with 78c water thats had the pH lowered to around 5.2.


----------



## altone

Lionman said:


> 7KG in a full volume batch in a 50L guten is not a big grain bill. that would only be about 1050 or so OG in a 40L batch.
> 
> I have been getting around 80% brewhouse efficiency so pretty high mash efficiency on most of my brews. That included a batch with an 11KG grist.
> 
> Crush should be pretty fine with a decent amouont of flour forming. For 7KG you only need to roughly half fill with strike water. Aim for about 3:1 water to grain. So 21L water, 7KG grain.
> Make it slightly thicker for bigger grist so it actually fits in.
> This will ensure you have enugh space for a decent sparge. Sparge with 78c water thats had the pH lowered to around 5.2.



Yep that was what I was alluding to in the earlier post as far as crush is concerned.
A finer crush in any of these 1v units seems better.
Your LHBS will probably crush to suit multi vessel units.
I normally only do a small sparge of 5-7l depending on what I'm brewing but that helps efficiency too.


----------



## goatchop41

Lionman said:


> Aim for about 3:1 water to grain. So 21L water, 7KG grain.



It'll need be a little more water than that, to account for the 'deadspace' under the malt pipe. I think that it's about 6.5L on the smaller model, and 8 on the bigger model? So 3:1 water:grain + 6.5 or 8L depending on your model


----------



## chesl73

goatchop41 said:


> It'll need be a little more water than that, to account for the 'deadspace' under the malt pipe. I think that it's about 6.5L on the smaller model, and 8 on the bigger model? So 3:1 water:grain + 6.5 or 8L depending on your model


The deadspace is same on both... About 8L


----------



## devoutharpist

Thank you for all of the responses, lots of stuff to consider. I will admit that mashing has always been something that i haven't quite got my head around for all grain and trying to work out the mashing profiles in Beersmith for the Guten have been a pain. But maybe i should just ignore the mash profiles in beersmith and go for it a more "traditional" way


----------



## Lionman

goatchop41 said:


> It'll need be a little more water than that, to account for the 'deadspace' under the malt pipe. I think that it's about 6.5L on the smaller model, and 8 on the bigger model? So 3:1 water:grain + 6.5 or 8L depending on your model



The dead space is not that important to take into account in a recirc system. As you recirc the wort it moves a portion of the wort from the deadspace to above/into the grain bed so as long as you are getting good flow through the bed it will be fine. I fill my 23L cube from the filter in the kitchen and that is plenty for a lower OG batch.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Did a double brew day today, both the same grain bill 4.6 kg of grain, 23 litres into fermenter, same with the 50 litre, just to get the first brew under its belt. Better boil on the 40 litre but only due to the hood, both on 2000 watt both are same diameter so probably shan't bother making another hood.
One thing I did notice doing a brew last week was the submerged return pipe (33 litres full volume mash) sucked back when the pump was switched off, so no switching off the pump on today's brew.


----------



## chesl73

Weal, you think the jacket is worth the investment? I can't see them for sale on the kk website


----------



## wide eyed and legless

chesl73 said:


> Weal, you think the jacket is worth the investment? I can't see them for sale on the kk website


Will be if you brew outside like me, certainly keeps the heat in.


----------



## goatchop41

Hey @EmptyB you'll love this! 'Not affiliated with KegKing', but rocking *two *Guten jackets _that are not available for sale yet_... and that also have their item number plastered on them...hmmmmmmmm



wide eyed and legless said:


> View attachment 114194


----------



## EmptyB

Like I said earlier.. No need to pay for a forum sponsorship when you've got a lackey on the inside.


----------



## altone

goatchop41 said:


> Hey @EmptyB you'll love this! 'Not affiliated with KegKing', but rocking *two *Guten jackets _that are not available for sale yet_... and that also have their item number plastered on them...hmmmmmmmm


Err they appear to be available in store, was there earlier today. I don't need one as my old camping mat does the same job.
Maybe they haven't put them up on the website yet.

Maybe WEAL is in their beta testing group - Idk


I remember folks saying I must be a Blizzard employee because I knew game stuff they didn't
sadly no I was just a beta tester for many of their games.
I did get to see stuff before the general public, unfortunately no financial benefit.


----------



## EmptyB

While I respect your opinion altone, WEAL is most certainly biased. Affiliated - maybe not. On their payroll - maybe not. He could simply be passionate and that's okay. He's been heavily against KL and heavily for KK since day 1, employing some less than honest tactics (posting that fake photo to make the Ultratap look good, alleging KL are selling an uncertified Robobrew unit despite a certification existing, alleging patent theft). A lot of what's been posted in other threads indicates more than just a passion - it indicates an agenda, an ulterior motive.

So why is that really a problem? And more importantly - *why should anyone care? *

Because people come here for unbiased opinions. I don't give two shits about KK nor KL, they're both bad news for the brick & mortar LHBS down the road or across town from almost each and every one of you. If either of them get a leg up on the other, a monopoly will develop. They both sell practically the same units minus some minor differences. They both make beer FFS; same with their taps, they both pour beer. Neither is revolutionary in design.

The community is good at calling out KL on their crap (resurrecting old threads to spruik wares) and that should continue. If Admin or mods give a toss about their other sponsors they will impose a restriction on unsolicited posts by KegLand (that is, posting in a thread outside of their own, where they weren't directly asked a question).


----------



## PTG

There you go $8 at kmart. Even have them in pink


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

PTG said:


> There you go $8 at kmart. Even have them in pinkView attachment 114197


Damn mine cost me $10 from Kmart. But it's green and has a shiny side.


----------



## goatchop41

PTG said:


> There you go $8 at kmart. Even have them in pinkView attachment 114197



I've seen people melt these on to the sides of their units if they have a bit of a boil over. I don't plan on having a boil over, but I also don't want to be scraping melted shite off of the sides of my unit...


----------



## PTG

Ha, that would really suck. 
Shame guten would have looked pretty in pink


----------



## Abird89

goatchop41 said:


> I've seen people melt these on to the sides of their units if they have a bit of a boil over. I don't plan on having a boil over, but I also don't want to be scraping melted shite off of the sides of my unit...



Did that with my robo... just looks shite, doesn’t affect performance


----------



## sp0rk

EmptyB said:


> alleging KL are selling an uncertified Robobrew unit despite a certification existing


That certification number couldn't be verified, I spent quite a while trying to locate it but couldn't find anything
I'll agree Weal does have a bias, but he has some valid points


----------



## EmptyB

Yeah, we spent a while trying to verify the Guten number as well. No dice.


----------



## altone

EmptyB said:


> While I respect your opinion altone, WEAL is most certainly biased. Affiliated - maybe not. On their payroll - maybe not. He could simply be passionate and that's okay. He's been heavily against KL and heavily for KK since day 1, employing some less than honest tactics (posting that fake photo to make the Ultratap look good, alleging KL are selling an uncertified Robobrew unit despite a certification existing, alleging patent theft). A lot of what's been posted in other threads indicates more than just a passion - it indicates an agenda, an ulterior motive.
> 
> So why is that really a problem? And more importantly - *why should anyone care? *
> 
> Because people come here for unbiased opinions. I don't give two shits about KK nor KL, they're both bad news for the brick & mortar LHBS down the road or across town from almost each and every one of you. If either of them get a leg up on the other, a monopoly will develop. They both sell practically the same units minus some minor differences. They both make beer FFS; same with their taps, they both pour beer. Neither is revolutionary in design.
> 
> The community is good at calling out KL on their crap (resurrecting old threads to spruik wares) and that should continue. If Admin or mods give a toss about their other sponsors they will impose a restriction on unsolicited posts by KegLand (that is, posting in a thread outside of their own, where they weren't directly asked a question).



Biased? Absolutely, an agenda probably. Many of us try to minimize our biases in order to share knowledge/experience in a positive way.Others don't.
I totally agree also about it's more KL or KK rather than supporting LHBS and forum sponsors.
I buy all my ingredients from a brewshop - not very local but still. Even though it might cost slightly more.
Equipment I've bought from both the above places to save cash and they are both local to me.
I believe most LHBS make the majority of their dollars from consumables so hopefully I'm supporting them enough.
But yes, support your LHBS otherwise they will disappear and you'll have to buy whatever the big guy says you want.


----------



## Milhouse

With regards to the discussion on whether a modification would void a warranty, a manufacturer could only refuse a warranty on these grounds if they can prove the modification caused or contributed to the failure.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Plenty of the Guten jackets in stock, came in with the new load of Gutens, there was mention of the switch covers being, or coming into stock.


EmptyB said:


> Yeah, we spent a while trying to verify the Guten number as well. No dice.


And what was the number you were trying to verify?

Also I have said before I was neither for or against KL or KK it wasn't until KL started hanging all the shit on KK when KK had no right of reply.
I must say I have got some respect for KL, when they can develop a robotic tig welder to go inside a 35 mm hole and weld mini kegs from the inside, not only that, but in a mass production situation. Did they go and cash the idea in for untold millions of dollars. Nope they are battling on, trying to eke out a living importing cheap brewing gear from China.


----------



## EmptyB

Not sure which thread it was from TBH. The point was, we found a record of neither unit in that database, probably because they were in there under different names. Yet when someone pointed out the Guten wasn't in there either, suddenly it wasn't such a hot issue for you.

KK have a right of reply. It's called becoming a sponsor. In lieu of that they have you..


----------



## Fergy1987

Holy crap, I stopped looking at the Guten for a bit while on holidays and have just noticed its now $499! - Now I'm furious I didn't pick it up at the introductory price. I thought it would maybe go up to 400 or something....but another $120 is getting pretty up there in price!


----------



## awfulknauful

goatchop41 said:


> Hey @EmptyB you'll love this! 'Not affiliated with KegKing', but rocking *two *Guten jackets _that are not available for sale yet_... and that also have their item number plastered on them...hmmmmmmmm


I bought mine a week ago even mentioned it in the thread, whirlpool arms are in also.


----------



## goatchop41

awfulknauful said:


> I bought mine a week ago even mentioned it in the thread, whirlpool arms are in also.



I was about to saw that it is absolutely pointless if they're not available on the website, as most of their customers will order online. Just checked once more and they appear to have finally been listed. Must have only happened in the last day or two, because they certainly didn't show up when I searched for them after WEAL posted the pic of both of his units with jackets...


----------



## goatchop41

Abird89 said:


> Did that with my robo... just looks shite, doesn’t affect performance



Obviously it wouldn't affect performance, but regardless, I have no interest in scraping melted foam off of the sides of my unit


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> I was about to saw that it is absolutely pointless if they're not available on the website, as most of their customers will order online. Just checked once more and they appear to have finally been listed. Must have only happened in the last day or two, because they certainly didn't show up when I searched for them after WEAL posted the pic of both of his units with jackets...


Been available in the shop for a week and a half, also I think it is insulting to insinuate that I got the jackets as some sort of deal. First rule of business, 'Aim High', have another look at the photo I put up.


EmptyB said:


> Not sure which thread it was from TBH. The point was, we found a record of neither unit in that database, probably because they were in there under different names. Yet when someone pointed out the Guten wasn't in there either, suddenly it wasn't such a hot issue for you.
> 
> KK have a right of reply. It's called becoming a sponsor. In lieu of that they have you..


Did you look under MCH Australia. For right of reply ask you buddies at Keg Land why Keg King are no longer sponsors, sponsorship cancelled when KL came on board. (we know how they hate competition)
If you want to discuss differences between KL and KK start another thread, don't bring your grievances to the Guten thread.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Been available in the shop for a week and a half, also I think it is insulting to insinuate that I got the jackets as some sort of deal. First rule of business, 'Aim High', have another look at the photo I put up.



Like I was going to say in my post mate, it's pointless to be telling people to get them when they weren't available online. They only just happened to appear now


----------



## Lionman

goatchop41 said:


> Like I was going to say in my post mate, it's pointless to be telling people to get them when they weren't available online. They only just happened to appear now



Looks pointless anyway. The pump just clogs if you try to use it post boil. The pick up for the pump would have been better on the side, not the bottom of the unit. At the very least right at the edge on the bottom.

Might work ok if you brew a 15IBU lager I guess. Who's got time for that though? 

Might need to see if I can extend the pickup of the pump up 50mm or so off the bottom.


----------



## altone

Lionman said:


> Looks pointless anyway. The pump just clogs if you try to use it post boil. The pick up for the pump would have been better on the side, not the bottom of the unit. At the very least right at the edge on the bottom.
> 
> Might work ok if you brew a 15IBU lager I guess. Who's got time for that though?
> 
> Might need to see if I can extend the pickup of the pump up 50mm or so off the bottom.



Err what are you talking about here? The last lot of posts were about the Guten jackets.

Oh if it's the whirlpool arm I'm with you on that.


----------



## krz

I picked up my jacket yesterday and also the whirlpool arm.
As I had purchased the Guten 50L from them some months ago, they gave me the jacket for free as promised.
I fitted the jacket this morning, it is a great fit. Brew day tomorrow, will try both the jacket and arm out tomorrow and report.


----------



## Abird89

krz said:


> As I had purchased the Guten 50L from them some months ago, they gave me the jacket for free as promised..



They doing that for everyone? Got one of the first, before the jackets were around. I need my next lot of little supplies ordered anyway and tossing up between KK/KL and would go KK if a jacket was thrown in with the order


----------



## lespaul

For those using the 50lt, what evap rate, efficiency did you get for a ~43lt batch? Probably help if you knew the power setting you used for the boil too. Thanks in advance
edit: will be using the jacket too for continuity


----------



## awfulknauful

Fergy1987 said:


> Holy crap, I stopped looking at the Guten for a bit while on holidays and have just noticed its now $499! - Now I'm furious I didn't pick it up at the introductory price. I thought it would maybe go up to 400 or something....but another $120 is getting pretty up there in price!


Still value for money, only other option is the Robobrew 3.


----------



## Lionman

lespaul said:


> For those using the 50lt, what evap rate, efficiency did you get for a ~43lt batch? Probably help if you knew the power setting you used for the boil too. Thanks in advance
> edit: will be using the jacket too for continuity



I haven't measured it exactly but pretty sure the evap rate is close to 5L/hour.

You will struggle to do a 43L batch without topping up in the fermenter I think. 50L is the vessels volume to the brim.

I usually sparge to the 45L mark and then boil to about 40L and even then I have had 2 boilovers (although I wasn't watching it at the time, probably could have avoided it if I was paying attention)

40L is enough to fill 2 cornies so I'm happy with that.

My efficiency has ranged from 78% to 83% depending one the grist.


----------



## lespaul

I didn't realise it was that limiting... Was planning for get to 2 cornies plus losses i.e 43 litres.
Thanks for the targets @Lionman did you have your power settings for boil?
Other have similar numbers?


----------



## Lionman

I have tried getting to the boil at 3KW and then reducing the power a bit to say 2400W, but last couple fo batches I just left it on full blast. It does reduce the vigour of the boil a bit reduceing the power (funny that) but not sure what effect it has on boil off rate. Didnt pay enough attention.


----------



## Abird89

2000w keeps it simmering away on mine. Not overly vigorous though. I think 2200w is the sweet spot.


----------



## krz

Lionman said:


> ....
> 
> My efficiency has ranged from 78% to 83% depending one the grist.


Thats about what I get.


----------



## goatchop41

Lionman said:


> I have tried getting to the boil at 3KW and then reducing the power a bit to say 2400W, but last couple fo batches I just left it on full blast. It does reduce the vigour of the boil a bit reduceing the power (funny that) but not sure what effect it has on boil off rate. Didnt pay enough attention.



I would be careful with that. There are a couple of retailers on Guten/Ace groups on FB saying that they have seen a few elements burn out from being used at full blast the whole time. Perhaps it's better to stay just under full blast when raising temps and then have it as low as needed to still get a good rolling boil


----------



## wide eyed and legless

To get a good rolling boil at a low wattage, insulate and knock up a hood, costs about $30. 



Without any insulation and in winter, 2000 watt, still have to keep a close eye on it.


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> To get a good rolling boil at a low wattage, insulate and knock up a hood, costs about $30.
> 
> View attachment 114222
> Without any insulation and in winter, 2000 watt, still have to keep a close eye on it.



That hood only cost $30 ? made up or did you do it yourself? I don't have welding gear at all.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Actually just under $30, mixing bowl, $22.50, flue for the top $3.40. No welding required, tools ,grinder, drill, pop riveter. Cut the bottom off the $3.40 pot, if you have a pedestal drill knock up a fly cutter to cut out the bottom of the bowl, or draw a circle slightly less than the ID of the flue size and drill a series of holes and take out the bottom of the bowl, pop rivet the flue to the bowl and place 3 rivets around the rim of the bowl to keep the hood in situ when using. Do not cut the rim of the bowl, they are spun so under stress, make a cut in the rim, the stress starts to release and it will never be flat again.

Mixing bowl about 360 mm

Little pot for flue.


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> Actually just under $30, mixing bowl, $22.50, flue for the top $3.40. No welding required, tools ,grinder, drill, pop riveter. Cut the bottom off the $3.40 pot, if you have a pedestal drill knock up a fly cutter to cut out the bottom of the bowl, or draw a circle slightly less than the ID of the flue size and drill a series of holes and take out the bottom of the bowl, pop rivet the flue to the bowl and place 3 rivets around the rim of the bowl to keep the hood in situ when using. Do not cut the rim of the bowl, they are spun so under stress, make a cut in the rim, the stress starts to release and it will never be flat again.
> View attachment 114230
> Mixing bowl about 360 mm
> View attachment 114231
> Little pot for flue.



Nice, cheap and simple. Don't have a pedestal drill but I'm sure I could knock one of those together.


----------



## lespaul

First brew day was a shocker. Milled the grain too fine and the water wouldn't flow through the grain bed. So after stuffing around with it ended up with a tiny bit of grain in the kettle. 
After I finished up there was so much scorching on the element.
So after all that probably end up on the garden... 
Hopefully it will be a bit smoother next time with a coarser crush.


----------



## Milhouse

lespaul said:


> First brew day was a shocker. Milled the grain too fine and the water wouldn't flow through the grain bed. So after stuffing around with it ended up with a tiny bit of grain in the kettle.
> After I finished up there was so much scorching on the element.
> So after all that probably end up on the garden...
> Hopefully it will be a bit smoother next time with a coarser crush.



Coarser grind will help. Rice hulls help too especially if using wheat or Rye.


----------



## goatchop41

Milhouse said:


> Coarser grind will help. Rice hulls help too especially if using wheat or Rye.



Or conditioning the grain before milling


----------



## krz

I have a Guten 50L.
Today I tried 12.8kg of grain, with 35 litres of water to Mash.
I have a block and tackle and gently lowered the grain but 35 litres was just too much water, I had to drain 6 litres out in order to get the grain soaked.
Anyway, it wasnt that efficient, I ended up with 32L at 1.060 after the boil, which I diluted with 8L water to reach 1.048, I 'll get 2 kegs from that.
I'm kinda thinking 10kg grain about the max for the Guten 50L to get a reasonable efficiency using my method.

A question.
Would it be better to add the water and grain together from cold and slowly ramp up temp to mash temp?
Or is that a bad idea?
Would conditioning help?

Thanks


----------



## altone

@krz I've done over 10Kg in the 40l Guten but yes that sounds like too much water.
Any brews with lots of grain, I use as little water as needed to produce a decent consistency to the mash and then add the rest as sparge..

You should be able to do 13 Kg of grain in the larger Guten without too much issue.

edit: I wouldn't add the grain until the water was up to temp - either protein rest if you do that or mash temp.
I've never tried grain conditioning because my crush is usually good enough without messing with it, so can't comment on that.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

krz said:


> I have a Guten 50L.
> Today I tried 12.8kg of grain, with 35 litres of water to Mash.
> I have a block and tackle and gently lowered the grain but 35 litres was just too much water, I had to drain 6 litres out in order to get the grain soaked.
> Anyway, it wasnt that efficient, I ended up with 32L at 1.060 after the boil, which I diluted with 8L water to reach 1.048, I 'll get 2 kegs from that.
> I'm kinda thinking 10kg grain about the max for the Guten 50L to get a reasonable efficiency using my method.
> 
> A question.
> Would it be better to add the water and grain together from cold and slowly ramp up temp to mash temp?
> Or is that a bad idea?
> Would conditioning help?
> 
> Thanks


Water in first, dough in at 40 C and take up to mash temp, I do a 90 minute mash for improved efficiency, not to coarse a grind will help with efficiency, all the fine bits will be dumped back on top of the grain bed through the return flow pipe. No need to condition grain.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

krz said:


> I have a block and tackle and gently lowered the grain


So you have the basket in the air, fill it with grain and then lower the basket down in to the water?
I just slowly pour grain in to the water and stir.


----------



## goatchop41

krz said:


> Would conditioning help?



Conditioning will always help with efficiency, as it allows you to mill more finely and still have plenty of intact husks to bulk up the grain bed and get good flow. The issue for you is that conditioned grain will take up more space/volume (at least initially, until the grain bed settles fully) due to the intact husks taking up a lot more space than pieces of shredded husk.
You'll have to sort out your water:grain ratio a bit better


----------



## altone

Fro-Daddy said:


> So you have the basket in the air, fill it with grain and then lower the basket down in to the water?
> I just slowly pour grain in to the water and stir.



Oh good point! I didn't even pick up on that.
I do it the same way as you @Fro-Daddy


----------



## Lionman

krz said:


> I have a Guten 50L.
> Today I tried 12.8kg of grain, with 35 litres of water to Mash.
> I have a block and tackle and gently lowered the grain but 35 litres was just too much water, I had to drain 6 litres out in order to get the grain soaked.
> Anyway, it wasnt that efficient, I ended up with 32L at 1.060 after the boil, which I diluted with 8L water to reach 1.048, I 'll get 2 kegs from that.
> I'm kinda thinking 10kg grain about the max for the Guten 50L to get a reasonable efficiency using my method.
> 
> A question.
> Would it be better to add the water and grain together from cold and slowly ramp up temp to mash temp?
> Or is that a bad idea?
> Would conditioning help?
> 
> Thanks



Hey mate, add the grain slowly to the strike water stirring as you go.

I have tried both with cooler water around 40c and at strike temp of around 70c. It's much easier to stir the grain into cooler water and it saves time as you can dough in as the temp is ramping.

Have the pump running too as the it agitates the surface of the strike water making it easier to stir in the grain.


----------



## krz

Just an idea.
The 3000W is heaps for the 50L, but I need an extra 5-10 litres in order to ferment 3 kegs.
At the moment all I can mash is enough for 2 kegs.
I'm thinking there might be a way to extend the volume of the 50L Guten.

Any thoughts?


----------



## nosco

Can you brew 45lt of higher grav wort, including sparge water, and add water to the fermenter? ie 3x15lt plus water to the fermenter. That's how they do fresh wort kits.


----------



## krz

nosco said:


> Can you brew 45lt of higher grav wort, including sparge water, and add water to the fermenter? ie 3x15lt plus water to the fermenter. That's how they do fresh wort kits.



I am not that experienced with mashing. I have done 4 All grains now, but I struggle to get more than 45 litres (including dilution) of wort target gravity 1.048
So yes, I can get 45 litres but that after dilution, so adding in a bit of wastage I get about 2.3 kegs. Of course I'd prefer 3.

Anyway, this is going a bit off topic and should ne in another thread, but I would like to be able to extend the guten another 5 litres.

EDIT: Just read my reply, it sounded a bit rude. Wasnt meant to be. Yes I would love to get 45L of high gravity wort. Im obviously not doing it correctly.


----------



## nosco

All good. I have a 40lt so just trying to figure out how your brewing.
Are you using software. That will tell you straight away what volumes you can use. Even try some free software. Enter in your kettle dimensions and put in a basic recipe and that will give you a good idea of how much you can make. 
Are you sparging or using the full volume of water for your brew?


----------



## altone

krz said:


> Just an idea.
> The 3000W is heaps for the 50L, but I need an extra 5-10 litres in order to ferment 3 kegs.
> At the moment all I can mash is enough for 2 kegs.
> I'm thinking there might be a way to extend the volume of the 50L Guten.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Are you running out of space for grain or water?
I just scaled up an APA recipe for a 55l batch and was 12Kg which should fit in your malt pipe
(I'm assuming the 50l has a deeper malt pipe then the 40l I have had over 10Kg in my 40l)

If it's liquid space you are running out of, just use the max amount of water you can manage and make
a higher gravity wort than required then add boiled water to your fermenter to reach required volume/gravity.

If it's the maltpipe that's too small, you'd need to make a deeper maltpipe.

Otherwise you could try a decoction mash. That seems to increase efficiency and therefore 
gravity by a huge chunk the couple of times I've done it.
A lot of messing about though.


----------



## goatchop41

altone said:


> Otherwise you could try a decoction mash. That seems to increase efficiency and therefore
> gravity by a huge chunk the couple of times I've done it.
> A lot of messing about though.



A reiterated mash would be much better (or is that what you're thinking of?).
Reiterated = split the malt bill in half and do 2 mashes with the same mash water (gives much better efficiency with big grain bills);
Decoction = taking out some of the mash water and grist to boil separately to encourage melanoidin formation (I didn't know that decoction changed efficiency)


----------



## altone

goatchop41 said:


> A reiterated mash would be much better (or is that what you're thinking of?).
> Reiterated = split the malt bill in half and do 2 mashes with the same mash water (gives much better efficiency with big grain bills);
> Decoction = taking out some of the mash water and grist to boil separately to encourage melanoidin formation (I didn't know that decoction changed efficiency)



I was thinking of decoction. I've never done a reiterated mash but you are right that would be better and easier.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Reiterated mash would do it but that means 2 mashes on the one brew session, another thing to be wary of is, with the concealed element you are likely to get sugar scorching onto the base of the unit which will slow down your boil. The other way is to just go ahead with your grainbill for your required OG, mash into 3 to 4 litres / kg do the 90 minute mash, slow sparge take notes on the efficiency and adjust if needed.

Quote from dibbz - 50L does a 40L batch, 46.7L max for boil. Just 2 cubes with none to spare.

As for the scorching depending on the grain bill I have twice emptied the kettle (two different brews) cleaned off the scorched sugar before going into the boil phase.


----------



## krz

goatchop41 said:


> A reiterated mash would be much better (or is that what you're thinking of?).
> Reiterated = split the malt bill in half and do 2 mashes with the same mash water (gives much better efficiency with big grain bills);
> Decoction = taking out some of the mash water and grist to boil separately to encourage melanoidin formation (I didn't know that decoction changed efficiency)



Wow, Im glad I asked the question - seriously.
Now I have something more to learn 

Reiterated, sounds logical, the Decoction I'll have to look up!

Thanks for response


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> ....As for the scorching depending on the grain bill I have twice emptied the kettle (two different brews) cleaned off the scorched sugar before going into the boil phase.



You probably already know this, but Vinegar cleans the scorch EASY.
I buy 4 litres of white vinegar from Costco, cheap as.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Has anyone used the whirlpool arm? If so how did you go about filtering the inlet for the pump?

I thought of placing a small peice of pipe in there to have the inlet raised a bit to keep it above the hop matter but not sure how this will effect the recirc when mashing.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Has anyone used the whirlpool arm? If so how did you go about filtering the inlet for the pump?
> 
> I thought of placing a small peice of pipe in there to have the inlet raised a bit to keep it above the hop matter but not sure how this will effect the recirc when mashing.


If you wish to put your pump on during chilling there is a filter which you can buy, otherwise use a paddle to move the wort around while chilling.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you wish to put your pump on during chilling there is a filter which you can buy, otherwise use a paddle to move the wort around while chilling.


Where can that be bought? Anywhere in Australia?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Where can that be bought? Anywhere in Australia?


Wherever, the Guten is being sold I would imagine, its part of the accessories.


----------



## Mya

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Where can that be bought? Anywhere in Australia?



You should be able to make that with a piece of stainless tube, hose clamp and filter mesh.


----------



## lespaul

My Guten keeps turning itself off after about 3 minutes of running. It's not tripping the circuit breaker in the house. Doesn't seem to matter what power setting or if the pump is on or not. Comes good after another 3 minutes and I can turn it back on. Any ideas before I can call kegking at 9:30???????


----------



## lespaul

So managed to get it working at 1800w for no known reason. 
After the mash still getting grain in the kettle. It was a course crush this time and still no idea why it's happening.
I've been recirculating the wort now through a hop spider and Ive pulled out 3 of these.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Where is all that foam coming from? You shouldn't need to recirculate through anything the grain bed is your filter, any odd pieces of grain which you miss the malt pipe with will get sucked up and dumped on the top of the grain bed, same with small bits of flour.


----------



## altone

lespaul said:


> So managed to get it working at 1800w for no known reason.
> After the mash still getting grain in the kettle. It was a course crush this time and still no idea why it's happening.
> I've been recirculating the wort now through a hop spider and Ive pulled out 3 of these.



I normally set mine to 1800w anyway, only use more when ramping up at start and to reach boil .
You'll need to contact KK about it though.

As for grain in kettle - like WEAL said your grainbed should be your filter.
I use the top screen and adjust recirc so it doesn't go through the overflow pipe.
Maybe you are getting a lot of grain going through the overflow?
Very easy to happen if you don't use the topscreen and don't adjust the recirc flow.

Maybe next brew take a few pics of your process just so folks can get a better idea of why it's happening.

My brews are normally running clear after the first 10 minutes of mash time.

Hope todays effort turns out well for you.


----------



## lespaul

So that grain in the hop spider was after I had finished the mash and removed the grain basket. I have no idea how the grain is even getting in there. The water level never got above the overflow height and I had a hop screen on the overflow anyway.
I put all the wort in cubes pre boil and the element is black again... So I'm going to have to pour this batch on the garden too. 2 for 2.... 
I'll call kegking to troubleshoot


----------



## goatchop41

lespaul said:


> So that grain in the hop spider was after I had finished the mash and removed the grain basket. I have no idea how the grain is even getting in there. The water level never got above the overflow height and I had a hop screen on the overflow anyway.
> I put all the wort in cubes pre boil and the element is black again... So I'm going to have to pour this batch on the garden too. 2 for 2....
> I'll call kegking to troubleshoot



Check the fit/shape of your bottom screen, and the pipe in it. If they aren't fitting properly, then that creates and opening for the grain to move through.
How are you putting the bottom screen in to the malt pipe? Do you have it with the raised middle section/bump facing up or down? If it's facing down, then it can bend and let grain through


----------



## lespaul

I'll check when I get home. I have the bump facing up.
How loose should the pipe be screwed into the bottom plate? I had it a tiny bit loose so if I moved it, it wouldn't move the bottom plate and let any grain slip by.
Only other thing is I stirred the grain after mashing in and scraped the bottom plate. Not sure if that could affect it.


----------



## altone

lespaul said:


> I'll check when I get home. I have the bump facing up.
> How loose should the pipe be screwed into the bottom plate? I had it a tiny bit loose so if I moved it, it wouldn't move the bottom plate and let any grain slip by.
> Only other thing is I stirred the grain after mashing in and scraped the bottom plate. Not sure if that could affect it.


I have mine as tight as I can make it so it doesn't flop around.
Try not to move the pipe when mashing in etc.
I can't imagine scraping the plate so long as it wasn't with mighty force would cause an issue.

Did you say you got scorching BEFORE the boil? Set at 1800w? There's something amiss, wish I could tell you what.


----------



## lespaul

Yeh scorching before the boil.
I didn't have the top plate on this brew incase it was too fine and I had to stir it. Think this could have also caused the grain to get below the malt pipe? Maybe because the top plate wasn't there the bottom plate wasn't stabilised?


----------



## Neil Buttriss

How fast is the pump set, you say it doesn't get into the overflow but what is your grain bill total, do you use both the pipes. If the pipes are well above the mash then it won't overflow but if you run your pump to fast then all or most of the wort is above your mash so theres not enough in the bottom of the kettle. I use the lifting pins as a guide I get the pump going slowly then adjust it until the level remains about 5 mm below the top of the pins, the way I see it is if I do this then my flow rate is the same top and below, I usually either hit my targets or am more efficient than my target.


----------



## altone

Neil Buttriss said:


> How fast is the pump set, you say it doesn't get into the overflow but what is your grain bill total, do you use both the pipes. If the pipes are well above the mash then it won't overflow but if you run your pump to fast then all or most of the wort is above your mash so theres not enough in the bottom of the kettle. I use the lifting pins as a guide I get the pump going slowly then adjust it until the level remains about 5 mm below the top of the pins, the way I see it is if I do this then my flow rate is the same top and below, I usually either hit my targets or am more efficient than my target.



Exactly how I do it too. Yes it's possible there's insufficient in the base and that could cause the scorching. 
Also the fine mill would make it easier for grain to slip past the baseplate and loose overflow pipe.
@lespaul Did you taste the wort before dumping it? Just because you've got scorch marks doesn't mean the brew is a write off.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have found with a fair bit of corn in the grain bill the bottom will scorch during the mash, I would suggest it does with a large grain bill too, even with an even flow going through the return pipe. Twice now I have emptied the wort, cleaned the scorch off the bottom put the wort back into the kettle and proceed to boil, easy to tell if the bottom is scorched by the strength of the boil.


----------



## goatchop41

lespaul said:


> I'll check when I get home. I have the bump facing up.
> How loose should the pipe be screwed into the bottom plate? I had it a tiny bit loose so if I moved it, it wouldn't move the bottom plate and let any grain slip by.
> Only other thing is I stirred the grain after mashing in and scraped the bottom plate. Not sure if that could affect it.



Should be tight. If your bottom plate fits properly, then a little movement of the overflow pipe shouldn't move the plate.

Have a good look at the fit of your bottom plate on the bottom of the malt pipe. If the plate is a bit bent, or the lip on the bottom of the malt pipe isn't uniform, then that is likely your issue


----------



## lespaul

Thanks for all the responses.
Grain bill was 9.6kg and 30lt water. I adjusted the flow so that the water level sits just below the return pipe (maybe 3cm) and is stable. I use both pipes. 
Does look like there is a gap in the bottom of the malt pipe. It's not big but moving it around it doesn't feel like it wants to sit properly. Might be the culprit!
Other than that I've got no idea? 
Maybe too high power setting for the mash? 2800w. I suppose I could just ramp it up slowly with ~1500w and once the malts out or its running clear increase it.


----------



## altone

lespaul said:


> Thanks for all the responses.
> Grain bill was 9.6kg and 30lt water. I adjusted the flow so that the water level sits just below the return pipe (maybe 3cm) and is stable. I use both pipes.
> Does look like there is a gap in the bottom of the malt pipe. It's not big but moving it around it doesn't feel like it wants to sit properly. Might be the culprit!
> Other than that I've got no idea?
> Maybe too high power setting for the mash? 2800w. I suppose I could just ramp it up slowly with ~1500w and once the malts out or its running clear increase it.



The screen and pipe should sit tight so maybe that's it.
Like I think I said earlier I only use full wattage to heat the water to mash temp and later bring to the boil (A 1 minute step to hit temp)
Other than that I set to 1800w for no reason other than avoiding scorching etc. 
In my 40l unit 1800w is also enough to maintain a decent rolling boil, if yours is a 50l which it sounds like, you'd need to raise it a fair bit higher.

Hope you get it sorted quickly as it's a great bit of kit.


----------



## krz

lespaul said:


> Thanks for all the responses.
> Grain bill was 9.6kg and 30lt water. I adjusted the flow so that the water level sits just below the return pipe (maybe 3cm) and is stable. I use both pipes.
> Does look like there is a gap in the bottom of the malt pipe. It's not big but moving it around it doesn't feel like it wants to sit properly. Might be the culprit!
> Other than that I've got no idea?
> Maybe too high power setting for the mash? 2800w. I suppose I could just ramp it up slowly with ~1500w and once the malts out or its running clear increase it.



Like altone said, I usually bring my 50L Guten to mash temp using 3000W, then I mash at 1800W, then bring to the boil using 3000W and boil at 2200W.
No significant scorching.


----------



## goatchop41

lespaul said:


> Thanks for all the responses.
> Grain bill was 9.6kg and 30lt water. I adjusted the flow so that the water level sits just below the return pipe (maybe 3cm) and is stable. I use both pipes.
> Does look like there is a gap in the bottom of the malt pipe. It's not big but moving it around it doesn't feel like it wants to sit properly. Might be the culprit!
> Other than that I've got no idea?



You'll need to work out whether it is the screen that is bent, or if the lip that it sits on that is bent. You may be able to bend either back in to shape (or better than what it is right now)


----------



## lespaul

Hrm... I'd say for the money I spent I'm going to get kegking to fix the problem


----------



## malt and barley blues

May be a stupid question but you are using the white cap when doughing in?


----------



## goatchop41

malt and barley blues said:


> May be a stupid question but you are using the white cap when doughing in?



Yes. I have seen others use a piece of silicone tube or the bazooka instead though


----------



## devoutharpist

out of interest, what negative side effects does a scorch during the mash have? I had some scorching after my last brew, could have happened through the mash as i had the power up relatively high


----------



## wide eyed and legless

No effect whatsoever, just a bit of sugar loss, can happen during mash and boil. Nothing to worry about.


----------



## altone

devoutharpist said:


> out of interest, what negative side effects does a scorch during the mash have? I had some scorching after my last brew, could have happened through the mash as i had the power up relatively high


Like WEAL said unless it's massive black run-dry type scorching in which case your wort might get a nasty bitter taste.
If it tastes alright - no foul.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have thought about making up some cutting paste and getting a mirror finish on the bottom of the Guten that should stop any sugar getting a grip, been busy lately, so still just thinking about it.


----------



## lespaul

malt and barley blues said:


> May be a stupid question but you are using the white cap when doughing in?


Yeh, been using the white cap for dough in.
So is the top filter plate a necessity or even desirable?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> Yeh, been using the white cap for dough in.
> So is the top filter plate a necessity or even desirable?


I don't use mine, but in saying that I have the handle holes completely blocked, I find the grain bed floats around more not being compressed between two plates.


----------



## goatchop41

lespaul said:


> So is the top filter plate a necessity or even desirable?



It can stop the recirc arm from boring a hole in the grain bed whilst it's flowing (that's if you're not attaching silicone tubing from the arm to the grain bed), but it is especially useful when sparging, as it ensures that the sparge water spreads evenly over the bed


----------



## devoutharpist

Brewing a barleywine in the Guten this weekend. 9.5kg of grain (plus some rice hulls), what could possibly go wrong.............


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Increasing the water to grain ratio will do a lot to preventing a stuck mash, my concerns would be focused mainly on preventing a stuck ferment.


----------



## Milk-lizard84

devoutharpist said:


> Brewing a barleywine in the Guten this weekend. 9.5kg of grain (plus some rice hulls), what could possibly go wrong.............


What size system are you brewing it in?


----------



## goatchop41

devoutharpist said:


> Brewing a barleywine in the Guten this weekend. 9.5kg of grain (plus some rice hulls), what could possibly go wrong.............



Malt conditioning...do it, you won't regret it


----------



## wide eyed and legless

altone said:


> I couldn't even find them, you got a link at all?
> 
> Anyway for me they'd have to be darned cheap compared to the one's available locally.
> Otherwise I'll have to stick to kegmenters.


There is one on display in Keg King, good and bad points, bad points are in hand, will be fitted, or able to be fitted with a tri clover sanitary dump valve.





It has 4 toggle clamps on the top with a silicone gasket, will have to get hold of one for pressure ferment testing, thermowell, cooling ability also adjustable legs, price around the $250 mark .


----------



## devoutharpist

Milk-lizard84 said:


> What size system are you brewing it in?



50L, honestly my main concern at the moment is getting the wet grain basket out of the system.


----------



## devoutharpist

So it went pretty well, undershot my target gravity but that was to be expected with a beer this big. I would recommend rice hulls to anyone having issues with the mash though. Took a risk and used the pump (without any sort of screen) to get the wort into the fermenter after chilling it down a bit in the Guten, no issues there.

One word of warning... don't get too zealous trying to clean the inside of the overflow pipe, there is a knife-sharp edge in there somewhere as my thumb discovered


----------



## Redreuben

What a great Christmas!

I got totally ambushed with a 40l Guten. 
**** yeah! Insert big friggin grin.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A lot went out over the lead up to Christmas, wives picking them, up so your not alone I would bet there was a few surprises.


----------



## krz

devoutharpist said:


> So it went pretty well, undershot my target gravity but that was to be expected with a beer this big. I would recommend rice hulls to anyone having issues with the mash though. Took a risk and used the pump (without any sort of screen) to get the wort into the fermenter after chilling it down a bit in the Guten, no issues there.
> 
> One word of warning... don't get too zealous trying to clean the inside of the overflow pipe, there is a knife-sharp edge in there somewhere as my thumb discovered



Ive used the pump every time to pump wort into fermenter (also without screen) . No issues so far, 5 brews now.
Put the little mesh you got on top of the pipe, I sat w.e.a.l. do that, and i t works. 

Also cut my finger.


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is one on display in Keg King, good and bad points, bad points are in hand, will be fitted, or able to be fitted with a tri clover sanitary dump valve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has 4 toggle clamps on the top with a silicone gasket, will have to get hold of one for pressure ferment testing, thermowell, cooling ability also adjustable legs, price around the $250 mark .
> View attachment 114504
> View attachment 114505


Sounds interesting, I'll head down there with my tape measure when I get a chance to see if it will fit in my ferment fridge.


----------



## ridge runner

Hi team , for those who used a helix filter in guten how do you handle cleaning vessel? Just about to add it to my brew vessel and thought last minute how do I clean it once its screwed in .


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Once the brew is done take it out and rinse it.


----------



## ridge runner

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Once the brew is done take it out and rinse it.


Sounds like a pain .


----------



## fdsaasdf

The helix is very easy to clean, just soak it alongside everything else if that's your process otherwise pressure hose while pulling each end will rinse it easily. Personally I just put mine with the malt pipe and everything else from the robobrew 65 in the dishwasher with a tablespoon of PBW, no fuss


----------



## lespaul

Had another brew day. Single infusion to simplify things, set power to 1000w for the mash and worked a treat, no scorching!!!
Did still end up with heaps of floaties in the boil so I genuinely have no idea. I replaced the bottom screen and there is still a bit of a gap so maybe its the malt pipe. Will have to sort it out for the next brew. Other than that worked a treat.
At the end of the brew day I did notice this on the side of the malt pipe. No idea what could have caused it, any ideas?


----------



## Milk-lizard84

lespaul said:


> Had another brew day. Single infusion to simplify things, set power to 1000w for the mash and worked a treat, no scorching!!!
> Did still end up with heaps of floaties in the boil so I genuinely have no idea. I replaced the bottom screen and there is still a bit of a gap so maybe its the malt pipe. Will have to sort it out for the next brew. Other than that worked a treat.
> At the end of the brew day I did notice this on the side of the malt pipe. No idea what could have caused it, any ideas?View attachment 114637


How much of a gap do you have? I had a gap when I first opened mine and ended up returning it. All sorted not. Keg king sent back a new unit with no gap problems.


----------



## Milk-lizard84

This was the gap I had. Now the new bottom mash screen has no gap.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> At the end of the brew day I did notice this on the side of the malt pipe. No idea what could have caused it, any ideas?View attachment 114637



Just looks like wort dried on to the side of the malt pipe, cleans off easily.


----------



## Redreuben

Looks like a pair of thongs


----------



## lespaul

Yeh that was similar to my gap. They replaced the bottom screen, but there is still a slight gap, so must be the malt pipe? Ill get onto them after the 7th.
Never seen a wort stain like that. came off no worries, was just curious why it was only on a specific spot on the malt pipe.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The malt pipes can be a bit elliptical, that is probably where your gap is coming from, just gave mine a gentle squeeze.


----------



## goatchop41

ridge runner said:


> Sounds like a pain .



If taking one minute to unscrew the helix, rinse it, then screw it back in sounds like a pain for you, then I think that homebrewing is not the hobby for you


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Just looks like wort dried on to the side of the malt pipe, cleans off easily.



Bollocks it does. Well, the tiny bit at the top, yes, but I would think that @lespaul is talking about the clearly visible vertical strip of discolouration. It looks a lot like heat discolouration that you see in SS pots when they are heated on the stove too much without anything in them.
Was there anything different about this brew for you @lespaul ? Higher or lower volume, certain water profile, pH, etc.?


----------



## lespaul

I did use brewtan b for the first time. Other than that nope. It seems weird that it's not on the whole malt pipe but only on one strip?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> Bollocks it does. Well, the tiny bit at the top, yes, but I would think that @lespaul is talking about the clearly visible vertical strip of discolouration. It looks a lot like heat discolouration that you see in SS pots when they are heated on the stove too much without anything in them.
> Was there anything different about this brew for you @lespaul ? Higher or lower volume, certain water profile, pH, etc.?


I didn't even notice the scorch mark not something I would have been looking for, very odd.


----------



## PTG

I’ve been getting the same discolouration but on the bottom of the kettle. Did nothing unusual was standard brews, water additions and heating regime. Figured it was normal heat discolouration.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

PTG said:


> I’ve been getting the same discolouration but on the bottom of the kettle. Did nothing unusual was standard brews, water additions and heating regime. Figured it was normal heat discolouration.


Yes your right it is normal to get it on the bottom, I have found it to be worse if using a fair bit of flaked maize.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

lespaul said:


> Had another brew day. Single infusion to simplify things, set power to 1000w for the mash and worked a treat, no scorching!!!
> Did still end up with heaps of floaties in the boil so I genuinely have no idea. I replaced the bottom screen and there is still a bit of a gap so maybe its the malt pipe. Will have to sort it out for the next brew. Other than that worked a treat.
> At the end of the brew day I did notice this on the side of the malt pipe. No idea what could have caused it, any ideas?View attachment 114637


Did you have the hop spider in?


----------



## lespaul

Nah I didn't have the hop spider in the malt pipe. In the boil yes


----------



## Wobbly74

How is heat discolouration normal? There shouldn't be enough heat around the malt pipe to do anything like that. I can't speak about consealed elements with wort, but have never had heat discolouration in my sparge urn or in any of my SS equipment in my 1V system. Sounds more like chemical reaction. Does it clean off with either a green plastic scourer or acid?


----------



## fdsaasdf

Wobbly74 said:


> How is heat discolouration normal? There shouldn't be enough heat around the malt pipe to do anything like that. I can't speak about consealed elements with wort, but have never had heat discolouration in my sparge urn or in any of my SS equipment in my 1V system. Sounds more like chemical reaction. Does it clean off with either a green plastic scourer or acid?


Agreed, in 30+ batches in my 1V rig made from the cheapest 1mm pots I never got any scorching or discolouration... Up to my 5th brew in the Robobrew 65 and the malt pipe still looks brand new.

If that hasn't been resting on an element of some sort I've no idea how it would have turned that colour without some sort of chemical reaction. If I were lespaul I'd be taking it back to the place of purchase.

BTW the Robobrew 65 malt pipe is built like a brick outhouse too so it has none of the misalignment that seems to be happening with Guten malt pipes being mis-shapen and not aligning with bottom screens - looks like a manufacturing defect - again I'd be taking it back.


----------



## PaulS

I've done 5 brews in my 40L Guten so far and there is certainly no scorching of the malt pipe, and shouldn't be at the temps we mash at. I agree with Wobbly, sounds more like a chemical reaction to me, did you clean with system with PWB or similar before you began brewing with it?


----------



## altone

PaulS said:


> I've done 5 brews in my 40L Guten so far and there is certainly no scorching of the malt pipe, and shouldn't be at the temps we mash at. I agree with Wobbly, sounds more like a chemical reaction to me, did you clean with system with PWB or similar before you began brewing with it?



Agree totally. I have had some scorch marks on the base, but easily cleaned off. Never had any elsewhere or heat discoloration.
I soaked everything in PBW heated it to 60C and recirculated for a while before use. Then filled with water, heated and recirculated.

Done quite a few brews and all is still shiny.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

1st brew for the new year, not done a SMASH for a while, so a SMASH it is. American pale ale Smoke Stack Lightning. 5.5KG Viking pale ale malt and Styrian Wolf hops (hence the name)





No sparge 21 litre batch, mash in to 32 litres of water.




Half way through the mash, no top screen, as you can see the grain is in suspension, no worrying about channeling.


----------



## malt and barley blues

WEAL how do you lift out the malt pipe?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The all thread through the lifting holes, the Brau Meister handle fits on the inside of the malt pipe. But there are lots of ways of cobbling something up to lift out the malt pipe, 23 litres of no sparge can be done this way, grain bill dependent. But the pump must be switched off simultaneously as turning off the choke, otherwise there will be suck back into the pump.


----------



## Milk-lizard84

First time using my helix coil in my guten on the weekend. Brewed a Brut Ipa. This is the left overs of chilling my beer to 35 ( best I could get in Perth 40c weather).

The flow was quite steady. I only slightly cracked the tap at the start and then opened in gradually more till it was fully open. No problems with drainage. Wort was super clear but it was free from hops so I'm happy with it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Some piece of mind knowing that the Guten is now going to be covered by a 2 year warranty.


----------



## Dave70

wide eyed and legless said:


> 1st brew for the new year, not done a SMASH for a while, so a SMASH it is. American pale ale Smoke Stack Lightning. 5.5KG Viking pale ale malt and Styrian Wolf hops (hence the name)
> View attachment 114721
> 
> No sparge 21 litre batch, mash in to 32 litres of water.
> View attachment 114722
> 
> Half way through the mash, no top screen, as you can see the grain is in suspension, no worrying about channeling.



Why no top screen?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Dave70 said:


> Why no top screen?


I have an idea that when the Chinese started making the SVB's maybe they had a look at the BM which has to have a top screen as the pressure pushes up against the top screen. If I didn't have the handle holes blocked off with the all thread I would possibly use the top screen but it does compact the grain bed. If the return pipe is proud of the liquor then some silicone hose will stop any fear of channeling, in this photo you can see where the grain bed comes up to because of the 'tide mark', more a less floating grain bed should theoretically, give a better conversion.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

wide eyed and legless said:


> Some piece of mind knowing that the Guten is now going to be covered by a 2 year warranty.


Still says 1 year on their website, do you know when this change is coming in to affect?


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would possibly use the top screen but it does compact the grain bed



How so? It weighs barely anything, so wouldn't it only compact the grain bed if you either physically pushed it down, or put a shiteload of water on top of it by recirculating too fast/too early? It shouldn't inherently compact it, as it doesn't weigh enough, so won't increase pressure on the bed significantly compared to having the same amount of mash water on top without the screen


----------



## Dave70

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have an idea that when the Chinese started making the SVB's maybe they had a look at the BM which has to have a top screen as the pressure pushes up against the top screen. If I didn't have the handle holes blocked off with the all thread I would possibly use the top screen but it does compact the grain bed. If the return pipe is proud of the liquor then some silicone hose will stop any fear of channeling, in this photo you can see where the grain bed comes up to because of the 'tide mark', more a less floating grain bed should theoretically, give a better conversion.
> View attachment 114862



Do you always re circulate via the return pipe? Some brewers (as in, the YT videos I've watched) prefer to adjust the flow so it remains under the return and drains (purely) back through the bed. On the face of it at, at least to me, that would seem to be the idea. Have you tried both ways? Make any difference?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Dave70 said:


> Do you always re circulate via the return pipe? Some brewers (as in, the YT videos I've watched) prefer to adjust the flow so it remains under the return and drains (purely) back through the bed. On the face of it at, at least to me, that would seem to be the idea. Have you tried both ways? Make any difference?


I have tried it both ways and it made no difference, I just watch the level of the liquor and make sure it holds steady, usually about half choke. you may be not able to see it but I have some silicone tube rammed in up to the taper of the bazooka, so there is nothing going down the overflow pipe.


goatchop41 said:


> How so? It weighs barely anything, so wouldn't it only compact the grain bed if you either physically pushed it down, or put a shiteload of water on top of it by recirculating too fast/too early? It shouldn't inherently compact it, as it doesn't weigh enough, so won't increase pressure on the bed significantly compared to having the same amount of mash water on top without the screen


Have a good look at the pictures I posted, the screen would be well below where the grain is sitting and tell me, why would I need the screen, there is no way the grain can escape from the malt pipe. Let the grain drift around in suspension.


Fro-Daddy said:


> Still says 1 year on their website, do you know when this change is coming in to affect?


In effect right now, and also giving consideration to lifting it to 3 years dependent of how things go.
No major problems like the RB3 where many have had to replace the screen and circuit board


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Hopefully there is a 50L single vessel price war soon!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> Hopefully there is a 50L single vessel price war soon!


Now be fair, to go head to head they have to be of similar quality.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

Last brew I tried a similar thing and got 80% efficiency which is above my normal 75%. I put both pipes in and had a 5.25 grain bill then I left the top screen above the pipe connector, the grain did rise up against the screen but it was first time I have been able to use the Guten pump at full flow.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Neil Buttriss said:


> Last brew I tried a similar thing and got 80% efficiency which is above my normal 75%. I put both pipes in and had a 5.25 grain bill then I left the top screen above the pipe connector, the grain did rise up against the screen but it was first time I have been able to use the Guten pump at full flow.


I am a great believer in if something can be done in a simple way without losing quality, then that's the way to do it. Full volume mash, = no sparge and with a ' no chill' on top of that, quicker brew day.


----------



## Dave70

wide eyed and legless said:


> I am a great believer in if something can be done in a simple way without losing quality, then that's the way to do it. Full volume mash, = no sparge and with a ' no chill' on top of that, quicker brew day.



So do you need to allow for extra grain with your recipes with the Guten? I was doing full volume brews for months with my old set up and couldn't understand why my OG always went to shit until I happened upon this article.
https://byo.com/article/skip-the-sparge/


----------



## mongey

Dave70 said:


> So do you need to allow for extra grain with your recipes with the Guten? I was doing full volume brews for months with my old set up and couldn't understand why my OG always went to shit until I happened upon this article.
> https://byo.com/article/skip-the-sparge/


I don’t have a gluten but that’s a good read. I have been doing full volume and wondered why I always needed to up the grain a little to hit og. I thought I just sucked.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Dave70 said:


> So do you need to allow for extra grain with your recipes with the Guten? I was doing full volume brews for months with my old set up and couldn't understand why my OG always went to shit until I happened upon this article.
> https://byo.com/article/skip-the-sparge/


You can up the grain bill, but what I do is dial in a lower efficiecy, instead of 85% dial in 70% try that and tweak from there.


----------



## lespaul

you seriously get 85%!?!
also, have you actually noticed an improvement in flavour as the article suggests?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lespaul said:


> you seriously get 85%!?!
> also, have you actually noticed an improvement in flavour as the article suggests?


80 to 85% is not unreasonable, 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil, if I dial 70% into a recipe which is going to be a no sparge it isn't far off the mark. The usual addition without lowering the sights to 70% would be to add 20% extra on to the grain bill but most of the supporting literature was made before recirculating SVB's were on the market. Flavour improvement, I would say the only way for myself would be to do a side by side taste test, some one like Gordon Strong may pick a difference it but I doubt if I could.


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> Some piece of mind knowing that the Guten is now going to be covered by a 2 year warranty.


Sorry WEAL, where is the mention of 2 year warranty?


----------



## Neil Buttriss

krz said:


> Sorry WEAL, where is the mention of 2 year warranty?


Keg King put it out there on Facebook also the website I think, They also commented to a post on Facebook that this covered ALL Gutens that have been sold so far not just new ones.


----------



## malt and barley blues

I got mine from China I wonder if that will be covered, although the 2 years are almost up.


----------



## goatchop41

malt and barley blues said:


> I got mine from China I wonder if that will be covered, although the 2 years are almost up.



I can't imagine that the local importer/retailer would cover something that was bought from the same supplier, but not through them.
The Guten manufacturers themselves in China (if we just call them 'Guten') seemed to have decent customer service prior to KK starting to import their products


----------



## Em Tubby

Fro-Daddy said:


> Still says 1 year on their website, do you know when this change is coming in to affect?


They already committed to it. So if you bought from them they have to honour it.


----------



## Em Tubby

malt and barley blues said:


> I got mine from China I wonder if that will be covered, although the 2 years are almost up.


Think you are on your own there. Distributor will only warrant what they sold. They would be pretty stupid to do otherwise unless the manufacturer recompnesed them for it somehow. imagine if you were the distributor and people asked for help on stuff you had nothing to do with?????


----------



## wide eyed and legless

2 years is going to be easy peasy, mine is very close to 2 years, only fault was the switch, but it has had some hammer, switch bought here $7.00 I have every faith in a 2 year warranty.


----------



## Mya

Have done 3 batches in the guten now. First batch we did the common mistake of putting the bottom mesh upside down and the mash fell down through into the lower chamber. Instructions are woefully inadequate here as has been mentioned before.

Second batch I messed up my strike water volume (added 1 pail too many) so had to boil it down for ages.

Third batch I was trying to determine the minimum strike water to add (for the 40L version). 18L couldn't even get a fluidised bed, 20L seemed OK initially but I found that the bottom chamber must have run fairly dry as the temp was swinging from 62 to 67 quite quickly and the pump was cavitating a little from the low suction head pressure, put another 2L down the overflow pipe and all was well. Hit perfect OG and fermenter volume regardless. So I think 22L is the minimum strike water volume to use. I didn't use rice hulls so that may have helped. I got a stuck sparge as well due to initially only using 20L of water I assume, so will check next time if 22L is enough to prevent a stuck sparge.

Got a big condensation problem because I'm brewing in the basement laundry with no windows anywhere near. Initially using a fan to blow out into my woodworking shop but that isn't ideal either. Thinking about making a fitted lid from a steel mixing bowl and having some ventilation ducting with an extractor fan at the end to suck the steam out, I'm only worried about either melting the extraction fan or inducing too much pressure drop and subsequently not being able to remove all the steam/DMS.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Mya said:


> Got a big condensation problem because I'm brewing in the basement laundry with no windows anywhere near. Initially using a fan to blow out into my woodworking shop but that isn't ideal either. Thinking about making a fitted lid from a steel mixing bowl and having some ventilation ducting with an extractor fan at the end to suck the steam out, I'm only worried about either melting the extraction fan or inducing too much pressure drop and subsequently not being able to remove all the steam/DMS.


I have seen that done on a Brau Meister so it is possible.


----------



## Ballaratguy

Mya I read your post with interest. I’m just about to put my (brend new) Guten together to boil up some cleaner and to then make a brew
Which way is the correct way to put in the bottom screen?
It looks like you have the presses rim facing down going by the pic in the manual!


----------



## Mya

The middle of the screen should be vertically higher than the outside edge of the screen, so that when you apply force to the screen this pushes outwards on the vessel. The other way around, the mesh screen will just collapse inwards from the weight.


----------



## Ballaratguy

Thanks May that sounds logical
Thanks for the quick reply


----------



## wide eyed and legless

What a 23 litre batch looks like at full volume, I think this is as far as it will go.




Used fermcap for the first time today, not an inkling of a boil over .


----------



## Mya

Hey weal I think I got the same stainless mixing bowl as you to make a boil vent lid, do you attach the kettle lip to the lid lip in any way, or do you just rest it there?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Mya said:


> Hey weal I think I got the same stainless mixing bowl as you to make a boil vent lid, do you attach the kettle lip to the lid lip in any way, or do you just rest it there?


I put 4 long pop rivets equally spaced around the rim, protruding enough so they sit inside the rim of the Guten, I brew outside and hasn't blown off yet.


----------



## Ballaratguy

wide eyed and legless said:


> I put 4 long pop rivets equally spaced around the rim, protruding enough so they sit inside the rim of the Guten, I brew outside and hasn't blown off yet.


I’ll also have to investigate that bowl/lid idea as I’m about to setup my “brewery” in a garden shed and thought I may even vent the outlet pipe to the outside


----------



## Reg Holt

I brew on a herms but have been toying with the idea of a single vessel unit to give me a bit more space, after reading most of this thread I think I am now sold on the Guten.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Reg Holt said:


> I brew on a herms but have been toying with the idea of a single vessel unit to give me a bit more space, after reading most of this thread I think I am now sold on the Guten.


I'd wait for the PID model, (if it is coming). The temp control on my 40 litre was terrible, over and under shot 3c. I've replaced the controller with a smart PID and now it's within .2-.3c fluctuation.


----------



## Reg Holt

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> I'd wait for the PID model, (if it is coming). The temp control on my 40 litre was terrible, over and under shot 3c. I've replaced the controller with a smart PID and now it's within .2-.3c fluctuation.


Sounds interesting, I shall make some inquiries, presuming it is from the same importer as the Guten. I am in no hurry if something like that is not to far away.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Weal mentioned it earlier in this thread somewhere


----------



## Reg Holt

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Weal mentioned it earlier in this thread somewhere


----------



## wide eyed and legless

True there is a PID model coming soon but not I believe like the Guten, more like a Grainfather .
I have checked my Guten temperature and it does not drift far off the mark, I wonder if insulation of the return pipe may be an advantage, as there seems to be more drift in the winter than the summer.


----------



## krz

I checked the temp o the Guten the last brew using a Thermapen, which is very accurate.
The target mash temp (65C) was exactly the same. At the start of the mash, I saw the temp rise to 68C, before coming back to 65 a couple of times.
I have 2 theories for this:-
1. The wattage is too high, I now set to 1600W on the 50L Guten.
2. Too much flow in the recirculation pump, slow down the rate.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I tried different wattages 800, 1000, 1500, it didn't make any difference, i still got over/ under shoots. I've got the vessel wrapped in a camping mat which helped hold the temp better in winter. 

With the flow, i just had it set to whatever was going through the bed.


----------



## krz

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> I tried different wattages 800, 1000, 1500, it didn't make any difference, i still got over/ under shoots. I've got the vessel wrapped in a camping mat which helped hold the temp better in winter.
> 
> With the flow, i just had it set to whatever was going through the bed.



Did you try adjusting the flow rate on the recirc? <---- Maybe this is the correct theory
i.e. Dont let it pump fully


----------



## Reg Holt

What you have to remember is, it is a thermal switch in the Guten, if the variant is only a couple of degrees and only for less than a minute or two then it isn't going to matter much. Using a PID will give better accuracy, but in home brewing there are so many variables we would find it difficult ( nigh impossible) to get every step of the procedure perfect.
Would it make any difference on which wattage it is set, I am no electrical engineer but I would not have thought so, it is just a mechanical switch which cuts in and out with the temperature variants.
From what I have read in this thread, and it is important on all recirculating SVB's is to maintain a full volume beneath the grain basket so the adjustment to the flow should be made keeping that in mind.
Insulating the return pipe, possibly would make a slight difference, but I wouldn't think there is going to be much heat exchanged through the exposure of the pipe to the atmospheric conditions.
All in all from what I have read it does seem to tick the boxes, obviously a PID will improve it, but I don't know if the extra cost is practical for the application.


----------



## Mya

Wattage will affect the swing as it has a minimum "on" time and more watts = more heat. I mash at 800w. Also unfortunately the temp probe is right next to the element so temps will be different between your mash and element albeit only a couple degrees. 

I mentioned in an earlier post, if your water volume in the bottom chamber is low you'll get big temp swings, I had this. The more water the more stable. Try mashing in with more water, also rice hulls might make the bed drain easier allowing higher circulation and thus more stable temps. I'm going to try rice hulls next brew.

Even still, I only get about 1.5 degrees drift at most and it's usually low not high. Hitting exact temps isn't that critical since the enzyme reactions occur in very wide temp ranges (ie 63-69 does much the same). Obviously if you're a microbrewery trying to perfect a commercial recipe you'll want it exact but for homebrew there are so many other factors that can influence.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A Golden Bitter brewed today, early start early finish, all parameters hit, clean up sprayed the jet down through the pump nothing coming out of the top. I have mentioned before that with a full volume mash the switching off of the pump has to be done simultaneously as the choke on the return pipe to prevent suck back. Forgot to do it this brew, so put the jet down the return pipe expecting to see some grain come out. Out popped a large cockroach, beats me how it got in, last night I ran the pump for a 1/2 hour at 70 C with sodium perborate, rinsed and filled up with 32 litres of water for to-days brew. Baffled.


----------



## Reg Holt

First of all I have to say this piece of kit is AWESOME. Why I have stuck with a 3 vessel for so long is beyond me.
I have to thank everyone who has put input into this thread, I have taken in every bit of useful information. I brewed an Oatmeal Stout today and everything worked out perfectly, I was expecting to have to adjust a few things ongoing to my next brew but every thing was spot on. Thanks guys.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Glad it worked out well Reg.


----------



## lespaul

God, I wish I had your luck Reg!!... I'm 4 brews in and haven't hit anything yet. Hard work


----------



## Reg Holt

lespaul said:


> God, I wish I had your luck Reg!!... I'm 4 brews in and haven't hit anything yet. Hard work


Nothing to do with luck, there is a stack of info on this thread, what problems have you had lespaul?


----------



## lespaul

Grain was too fine and didn't recirculate. Really bad scorching on a few brews. Really high efficiency (80%) on my beer before last and really low efficiency on my last beer (66%). Incorrect sized malt pipe that was letting grain in the boil. Still having some minor issues getting the right crush, something that I've not had problems with before. 
Nothing that isn't easily fixed and hopefully all kinks are worked out! Just some really frustrating brew days. Should make those easy brew days all the sweeter


----------



## Reg Holt

lespaul said:


> Grain was too fine and didn't recirculate. Really bad scorching on a few brews. Really high efficiency (80%) on my beer before last and really low efficiency on my last beer (66%). Incorrect sized malt pipe that was letting grain in the boil. Still having some minor issues getting the right crush, something that I've not had problems with before.
> Nothing that isn't easily fixed and hopefully all kinks are worked out! Just some really frustrating brew days. Should make those easy brew days all the sweeter


Are you anywhere near the Brisbane area lespaul I would be more than happy to help you out.


----------



## lespaul

Nah thanks for the help but I should have it covered [emoji106]


----------



## goatchop41

lespaul said:


> Grain was too fine and didn't recirculate. Really bad scorching on a few brews. Really high efficiency (80%) on my beer before last and really low efficiency on my last beer (66%). Incorrect sized malt pipe that was letting grain in the boil. Still having some minor issues getting the right crush, something that I've not had problems with before.
> Nothing that isn't easily fixed and hopefully all kinks are worked out! Just some really frustrating brew days. Should make those easy brew days all the sweeter



I initially had some issues with crush too. What helped me was working out what was too coarse, then gradually working my way along one notch on the measurement on my mill gap for each brew, until I hit a crush that became too fine, then I dialled it back one notch.
I also started conditioning my malt before milling, which has allowed me to mill a bit more finely that I had been able to previously, without getting a stuck recirc or stuck sparge


----------



## lespaul

I tried grain conditioning last brew and was surprised how much more intact the husk was. I didnt stir on mash in because I was reading about low DO, but I think it's what's given me the low efficiency. I had the impression that reciculation was supposed to break up dough balls, especially as I mashed in at 45°. Maybe that's just with the pump rests which I didn't use?
My last system was a home made brau with one of the mathos controllers I got in a bulk buy, and Ive got to say it was superior to this system... Just a shame the board fried. Could go much finer on the crush and had much more confidence in walking away during the mash and overall consistency.
This was the first beer that I had clear runnings during the mash, and had the pump valve only partially closed for it to reach equilibrium so that must be a good sign!
Fingers crossed for the next brew!!


----------



## Cian Doyle

Will be doing my first all grain brew on this unit at the weekend, was nervous on getting the crush right but will be taking into consideration pnorkle's and goatchops advice on test runs through the mill.
Still got every confidence I can pull it off, nothing fancy, no step mashing and will be trying the no sparge. Its a bit like waiting for Christmas now.


----------



## Reg Holt

Cian Doyle said:


> Will be doing my first all grain brew on this unit at the weekend, was nervous on getting the crush right but will be taking into consideration pnorkle's and goatchops advice on test runs through the mill.
> Still got every confidence I can pull it off, nothing fancy, no step mashing and will be trying the no sparge. Its a bit like waiting for Christmas now.


Mate if you are doing a no sparge don't be to worried about the crush, as long as it is not to fine of course, going to fine and you could encounter unwanted tannins, as long as when you crush the grain and can't see any whole grains in the mix then you are right to go. Any floury bits that get recirculated will end up on top of the grain bed. I can understand your concerns before your first foray into all grain, I guarantee get a few brews under your belt you will wonder at the apprehension you are feeling now was all about.
I have been brewing for years, but I still get that Christmas morning feeling when I go out in the morning to check that the fermentation has started. And guess what Santa has never let me down once.


----------



## Cian Doyle

Cheers Reg, feel like I just need a work out and a rub down now before the big day.


----------



## Reg Holt

Cian Doyle said:


> Cheers Reg, feel like I just need a work out and a rub down now before the big day.


After you have had a successful brew day, which you will, you can go back on the sidelines and let the yeast take over.


----------



## goatchop41

Reg Holt said:


> as long as it is not to fine of course, going to fine and you could encounter unwanted tannins



You'd have to grind realllllllllly fine to run in to this, wouldn't you?


----------



## Reg Holt

Correct, if the mill is set to fine and the husks start getting ground then tannins from the grind could be expected.


----------



## awfulknauful

Reg I am interested to know more about the crush of the grain, I havent done a no sparge but I do have a Guten.


----------



## Reg Holt

As mentioned earlier, crush the grain so there are no visible un- cracked grain, the best thing about no sparge is with the extra volume of liquor you will not be compacting the grain bed, you will have what is known as a grain bed in a fluid state. This will lead to a better extraction of the sugars leading to a better efficiency. In saying that, because you will not be extracting the remaining sugars out with a sparge, the grain bill will have to increase. I will be doing one and I will be starting off at a 15% increase in the base malt and work it from there, or as has been suggested by WEAL, lower the projected efficiency and work it out with whichever program you use. For myself I will be increasing the base malt. It's a bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.


----------



## awfulknauful

Thanks Reg will be giving this a try.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

I don't really see the point of 'no sparge'. It's not really that hard. If you're already heating up that much water drain some into a pot or insulated vessel then sparge while getting the wort up to boil.

I have a portable hot plate that i sit a 12litre pot with my already heated to 66c sparge water in which only takes about 10 minutes to heat to 75c for mash out sparge temp. The malt pipe has to draining whilst I'm raising the kettle to boil. 

I can't see any major time saving doing no sparge. So other than using more grain I'm a bit stumped as to why this is a method that I'd want to use.


----------



## Reg Holt

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> I don't really see the point of 'no sparge'. It's not really that hard. If you're already heating up that much water drain some into a pot or insulated vessel then sparge while getting the wort up to boil.
> 
> I have a portable hot plate that i sit a 12litre pot with my already heated to 66c sparge water in which only takes about 10 minutes to heat to 75c for mash out sparge temp. The malt pipe has to draining whilst I'm raising the kettle to boil.
> 
> I can't see any major time saving doing no sparge. So other than using more grain I'm a bit stumped as to why this is a method that I'd want to use.


What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.


----------



## Cian Doyle

I have been reading similar to the above, to me as a beginner the least complications the better.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Reg Holt said:


> What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.


When I sparge it takes about 10 min to pour the water over the top screen. The vessel hasn't even gotten anywhere near boiling by the time it's drained.


----------



## Ballaratguy

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Ballaratguy said:


> I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
> When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
> (Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)


Yes there isn't much gets through the helix, put your hops straight into the boil but if you are chilling the wort with an immersion chiller the break will clog the helix.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Ballaratguy said:


> I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
> When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
> (Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)


If you no chill the helix seems to work but if you chill then drain expect a bit of pain. Seems the cold break blocks the helix. I've only had it drain once out of about 10 brews easily ( I chill). It does do a good job of filtering hops if you can get it to work.


----------



## Ballaratguy

Thx for the quick response Weal
I’m intending to hot cube as I’m aware of water usage for chilling. I might see about running the wort through an ice chilled bath at a later date (maybe)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Ballaratguy said:


> Thx for the quick response Weal
> I’m intending to hot cube as I’m aware of water usage for chilling. I might see about running the wort through an ice chilled bath at a later date (maybe)


You could leave the cold break in the cube if you pour it out gently without it glugging.


----------



## goatchop41

Reg Holt said:


> What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.



That sparge time may be relevant on a 3V system, but a sparge on this system can take a mere 10-15 mins and still give fantastic efficiency.
Regarding pulling tannins from the grain bed during your sparge - if you're doing that in any appreciable amount, then you're either sparging way too hot, have stuffed up your pH, or must have pretty much ground your malt in to almost complete flour (in which case you won'be be sparging, because it will certainly be a stuck/fully compacted bed).

As @FarsideOfCrazy pointed out, there really isn't any appeal to no-sparging here - you get lower overall efficiency and you have to modify the equipment to be able to fit a full batch. Sparging is stupidly easy on this - just heat the whole volume of water, then drain off the sparge water in to a bucket and let it sit until you need it. You don't even need to try to keep it warm or anything because it doesn't matter. Hell, you could probably just pour the entire bucket over the grain bed at once and still get better efficiency than no-sparging.
(For the record, I'm a former no-sparger from my previous BIAB setup and I loved it then. I am just completely convinced that it is worthwhile sparging with these systems)


----------



## malt and barley blues

Reg Holt said:


> As mentioned earlier, crush the grain so there are no visible un- cracked grain, the best thing about no sparge is with the extra volume of liquor you will not be compacting the grain bed, you will have what is known as a grain bed in a fluid state. This will lead to a better extraction of the sugars leading to a better efficiency. In saying that, because you will not be extracting the remaining sugars out with a sparge, the grain bill will have to increase. I will be doing one and I will be starting off at a 15% increase in the base malt and work it from there, or as has been suggested by WEAL, lower the projected efficiency and work it out with whichever program you use. For myself I will be increasing the base malt. It's a bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.


How did you arrive at 15% Reg?


----------



## Reg Holt

goatchop41 said:


> That sparge time may be relevant on a 3V system, but a sparge on this system can take a mere 10-15 mins and still give fantastic efficiency.
> Regarding pulling tannins from the grain bed during your sparge - if you're doing that in any appreciable amount, then you're either sparging way too hot, have stuffed up your pH, or must have pretty much ground your malt in to almost complete flour (in which case you won'be be sparging, because it will certainly be a stuck/fully compacted bed).
> 
> As @FarsideOfCrazy pointed out, there really isn't any appeal to no-sparging here - you get lower overall efficiency and you have to modify the equipment to be able to fit a full batch. Sparging is stupidly easy on this - just heat the whole volume of water, then drain off the sparge water in to a bucket and let it sit until you need it. You don't even need to try to keep it warm or anything because it doesn't matter. Hell, you could probably just pour the entire bucket over the grain bed at once and still get better efficiency than no-sparging.
> (For the record, I'm a former no-sparger from my previous BIAB setup and I loved it then. I am just completely convinced that it is worthwhile sparging with these systems)


I was just answering FOC post, I sparge, I sparge slow, its not just only about efficiency it is about tannins as well. As I said I will be trying a "no sparge" WEAL has tweaked my interest, there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle. When I try the "no sparge" on the Guten I will be adding about $4.00 more worth of base malt to the grain bill, this will make up the loss in efficiency, I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged, that's what I call stupidly simple. If anyone asks for advice I will give it, if they don't want to follow it that's fine by me.
If you want to just pour the full bucket of sparge water over the grain bed that's fine by me too, but that is something I will not be trying. 



malt and barley blues said:


> How did you arrive at 15% Reg?


That is just the starting point, the efficiency I got on the first batch was 86% so 15% extra base malt should be about right.


----------



## dibbz

The best thing about no sparge is second runnings.


----------



## Mya

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> If you no chill the helix seems to work but if you chill then drain expect a bit of pain. Seems the cold break blocks the helix. I've only had it drain once out of about 10 brews easily ( I chill). It does do a good job of filtering hops if you can get it to work.



I've done 2 brews with the helix, I whirlpooled both times and did a cold break as well and didn't have the helix block at all. The trub was nicely piled up in the middle and also about 80% up the height of the helix so only the top of the helix was actually draining but it still drained remarkably fast. 

I put hops in a bag which might reduce the efficiency of the hop transfer but means I can cold break and only end up with a very thin layer of trub in the fermenter after a cold crash and can drain out down to the last 0.5L in the fermenter still getting clear beer!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Mya said:


> I've done 2 brews with the helix, I whirlpooled both times and did a cold break as well and didn't have the helix block at all. The trub was nicely piled up in the middle and also about 80% up the height of the helix so only the top of the helix was actually draining but it still drained remarkably fast.
> 
> I put hops in a bag which might reduce the efficiency of the hop transfer but means I can cold break and only end up with a very thin layer of trub in the fermenter after a cold crash and can drain out down to the last 0.5L in the fermenter still getting clear beer!


So what are you describing as 'did a cold break'?


----------



## Mya

Whirlfloc during the boil and chilling to 30 degC with a copper immersion chiller


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Mya said:


> Whirlfloc during the boil and chilling to 30 degC with a copper immersion chiller


Sometimes the helix will work but rarely, when it has been chilled, if you continue to use the helix and rapid chill it is a good idea to have something close by to push in between the spirals to get it to start emptying, may have to be done a couple of times.


----------



## malt and barley blues

Reg Holt said:


> I was just answering FOC post, I sparge, I sparge slow, its not just only about efficiency it is about tannins as well. As I said I will be trying a "no sparge" WEAL has tweaked my interest, there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle. When I try the "no sparge" on the Guten I will be adding about $4.00 more worth of base malt to the grain bill, this will make up the loss in efficiency, I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged, that's what I call stupidly simple. If anyone asks for advice I will give it, if they don't want to follow it that's fine by me.
> If you want to just pour the full bucket of sparge water over the grain bed that's fine by me too, but that is something I will not be trying.
> 
> 
> That is just the starting point, the efficiency I got on the first batch was 86% so 15% extra base malt should be about right.


Cheers Reg, good idea with the threaded bar.


----------



## goatchop41

Reg Holt said:


> there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle.



Uuuhhhhhh that's exactly what a modification is, yes? Altering the malt pipe to block the handle holes is a modification...



Reg Holt said:


> I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged.



Even more simple is understanding that you don't have to heat the sparge water at all. Cold sparging is exactly the same as warm.

You keep talking about tannins like they're an ever-present bogeyman in the brewing process. Unless you're stuffing up your process by having a very poor pH, milling _incredibly_ fine, or sparging with pretty much boiling water, then it really isn't an issue. The amount that you're pulling from the grain with a normal sparge under normal mash conditions with even a half decent crush is negligible, and certainly not enough to be detectable.
The issue is that you may be giving more novice users the impression that they have to be really worried about tannin levels in their wort which, as mentioned above, isn't likely a real concern for most brewers unless they're _really_ stuffing up somewhere. Chill out on your concern about the scary tannins


----------



## Cian Doyle

Finished my first all grain brew today, went surprisingly easy, in the fermenting fridge now at 18 degrees. Fingers crossed for the morning and now planning my next brew. Thanks for the help.


----------



## awfulknauful

I have got some all thread, it is galvanised will this be a problem?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

awfulknauful said:


> I have got some all thread, it is galvanised will this be a problem?


Not with the galvanising as such but the bare mild steel end will rust.


----------



## Cian Doyle

wide eyed and legless said:


> Not with the galvanising as such but the bare mild steel end will rust.


Oops, I got galvanized, will change it. Fermentation has taken off nicely, I have read varying opinions about harvesting yeast. My next brew calls for a different yeast, how long will the yeast I have now (US05) last if I leave 25 mm of fermented wort over it?


----------



## malt and barley blues

That should be fine for a couple of weeks.


----------



## Wobbly74

I'd avoid galv myself, particularly in an acidic environment.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Wobbly74 said:


> I'd avoid galv myself, particularly in an acidic environment.


Nothing wrong with a bit of zinc, good for you and the yeast. If doing a 21 litre no sparge the level will not come up to level of the hole 23 litre it will. To be on the safe side s/steel would be the go, mild steel and s/steel is not a good mix.


----------



## lespaul

Goatchops on the money, shouldn't get astringency unless you're really giving the grain a hard time (pH, oversparge, high temps). http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/
I'd really struggle to do full volume without sparging, haven't bothered to block the holes though. So I have the option of filling with water or sparging. Seems for little effort I don't have to waste all the sugar I've already got. Each to their own though!

On another note, brew day today went much smoother. Still getting some mild scorching, or more like a brown crud buildup on the concealed element, which is something I guess I'll have to live with. Other than that was an easy brew day.


----------



## Ballaratguy

First brew completed on Saturday’s went really well & hit all the figures well but I stuffed up on the timing of the hops. No burning on the element either (boiled on full power) just some greying on the base but overall I’m really impressed with the Guten.
The helix if awesome too made a very clear wort even if I did forget to whirlpool
Question for the more experienced guys:
The instructions say to NOT run the pump during the boil. I thought that it made for a more even temperature through the wort by having the pump circulating the wort
What do you guys do?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The turbulence of the boil will even out the temperature. I am thinking of getting a second pump, connect it to the tap then back into the kettle, (this will be for using an immersion chiller) hopefully that will stop any break material blocking the helix.


----------



## Ballaratguy

wide eyed and legless said:


> The turbulence of the boil will even out the temperature. I am thinking of getting a second pump, connect it to the tap then back into the kettle, (this will be for using an immersion chiller) hopefully that will stop any break material blocking the helix.


I’ve actually got a second pump which I had for my robo V1 I also hook it to the tap for when I hot cube. When I had it on the robobrew I ran it all the time


----------



## Ballaratguy

I may also add that so far I’m happy with the quality of the Guten as against the problems that they seem to be having with the robo’s & the GF’s


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Ballaratguy said:


> I may also add that so far I’m happy with the quality of the Guten as against the problems that they seem to be having with the robo’s & the GF’s


That is why the Guten has gone to a 2 year warranty.


----------



## krz

Ballaratguy said:


> ......
> The instructions say to NOT run the pump during the boil. .....


I didn't know that, Ive been running mine all the time and even use it to pump into the fermenter.
I wonder why you shouldn't use it during the boil?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

krz said:


> I didn't know that, Ive been running mine all the time and even use it to pump into the fermenter.
> I wonder why you shouldn't use it during the boil?


If you are using the pump to pump into the fermentor then you are also transferring whatever is in the kettle. You have no screen over the pump intake, yes you can buy one but it doesn't filter out unwanted crud from the boil.


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you are using the pump to pump into the fermentor then you are also transferring whatever is in the kettle. You have no screen over the pump intake, yes you can buy one but it doesn't filter out unwanted crud from the boil.



ok, thanks WEAL, I was more worried about temp.
I use hop spider, i whirlpool and I also use a household sieve (fine mesh) when pumping to the fermentor. not much gets thru the pump.


----------



## goatchop41

krz said:


> I didn't know that, Ive been running mine all the time and even use it to pump into the fermenter.
> I wonder why you shouldn't use it during the boil?



Mostly because there's absolutely no point to using it during the boil. The whole point of recirculation during the mash is to clarify the wort and help with getting an even temperature through the grain bed. During the boil all of the liquid is at or very, very close to boiling point, so that negates the need for temperature management, and there's no grain bed to filter through for further clarification of the wort. Therefore there is absolutely no reason why the pump would need to be on at any point in the boil.

The other thing to consider is whether or not the pump is actually temperature rated to deal with boiling wort, which I have no idea about. I'm sure that KK lackey, sorry, I mean insider/overly loyal customer/good friend of KK WEAL could help us all out there with some info...


----------



## ABG

goatchop41 said:


> Therefore there is absolutely no reason why the pump would need to be on at any point in the boil


I have a Robobrew and always put the pump on for the last 15 minutes of the boil (I checked that it's rated for boiling water). That way I can run the pump when I start running cold water through my immersion chiller knowing everything is sanitised. Having the pump running while the chiller is in action drops the temperature much faster. Of course, if you're just throwing your wort into a cube, then that becomes irrelevant.

Off topic, why is there so much Robobrew bashing on this thread? It's really tiresome and far from entirely factual. I've got an R3 and run over 30 batches absolutely problem free. Both the Guten and Robobrew are fantastic all in one brew units that have opened up possibilities to AG home brewers like no other products else previously. There's just no point in rubbishing one product or the other unless there are serious and persistent issues. Both on this forum and its competitor, there are heaps of Robobrew users like me who haven't had issues. Let's face it, at this price point, you're not going to get something that has the QA of a Grainfather.

Edit: Typo


----------



## malt and barley blues

goatchop41 said:


> The other thing to consider is whether or not the pump is actually temperature rated to deal with boiling wort, which I have no idea about. I'm sure that KK lackey, sorry, I mean insider/overly loyal customer/good friend of KK WEAL could help us all out there with some info...


I don't think WEAL's or KK's advice is needed for this one, anyone who has a Guten and read the instructions, it clearly states under, Circulation use of pump. Circulation of pump not necessary during boil process. Excessive heating of pump may cause damage.
As the pumps of the Robobrew and Guten are the same and Keg Land states it is OK to run the pump during boil I think I would be erring on the side of caution and not running the pump simply because there is no need.


----------



## goatchop41

malt and barley blues said:


> anyone who has a Guten and read the instructions, it clearly states under, Circulation use of pump. Circulation of pump not necessary during boil process. Excessive heating of pump may cause damage.



Thanks for the clarification. My Guten was one of the 'direct from China' jobbies, before KK started bringing them in, and the instructions that came with it are very scant. I had assumed that they would be better with KK selling them now (hopefully they've made their own instruction booklet!), but I wasn't 100% sure


----------



## goatchop41

ABG said:


> IOff topic, why is there so much Robobrew bashing on this thread? It's really tiresome and far from entirely factual. I've got an R3 and run over 30 batches absolutely problem free. Both the Guten and Robobrew are fantastic all in one brew units that have opened up possibilities to AG home brewers like no other products else previously. There's just no point in rubbishing one product or the other unless there are serious and persistent issues. Both on this forum and its competitor, there are heaps of Robobrew users like me who haven't had issues. Let's face it, at this price point, you're not going to get something that has the QA of a Grainfather.



Just speaking personally, from looking on online forums and facebook groups, RB problems are just much more common and severe than Guten issues. The worst that I've seen for Gutens is a few elements burn out (from using them on max wattage all of the time), a couple of PCBs malfunction, and the rocker switches failing (which is a common one).
RB failures, well you've got the really common burning out of the circuit board due to it being crap quality and getting overheated, pump failures (including a run of people last year who had blocked pumps in their first couple of brews due to swarf from manufacturing being stuck in there!!), issues with stuck mashes and sparges due to the double bottom screens. The list goes on.

Hopefully KL have sorted the QA issues out with their Brewzilla, but until proven otherwise, the quality and QA of the Guten seems to be much better


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ABG said:


> I have a Robobrew and always put the pump on for the last 15 minutes of the boil (I checked that it's rated for boiling water). That way I can run the pump when I start running cold water through my immersion chiller knowing everything is sanitised. Having the pump running while the chiller is in action drops the temperature much faster. Of course, if you're just throwing your wort into a cube, then that becomes irrelevant.
> 
> Off topic, why is there so much Robobrew bashing on this thread? It's really tiresome and far from entirely factual. I've got an R3 and run over 30 batches absolutely problem free. Both the Guten and Robobrew are fantastic all in one brew units that have opened up possibilities to AG home brewers like no other products else previously. There's just no point in rubbishing one product or the other unless there are serious and persistent issues. Both on this forum and its competitor, there are heaps of Robobrew users like me who haven't had issues. Let's face it, at this price point, you're not going to get something that has the QA of a Grainfather.
> 
> Edit: Typo


The Robobrew 3.1 is OK, it is the models before, I mentioned it in the Guten v Robobrew 3 the circuit board was crap in the 3. The 3.1 they have improved the circuit board, this should have been done before the Robobrew 3 was released. But it has cost Keg Land money rectifying it. Fleabag put up a thread showing the circuit boards, the 3.1 is a vast improvement to the 3.

Next week I will be reviewing the Brau Wolf another SVB from China there are 2 versions the 40 and the 60 litre. I will be reviewing the 60 litre. What I would like to see is to go up a notch and the units to mark time until a button is pressed to continue, much like the Brau Meister. Mash finishes, wait until the button is pressed ready to boil.


----------



## malt and barley blues

goatchop41 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. My Guten was one of the 'direct from China' jobbies, before KK started bringing them in, and the instructions that came with it are very scant. I had assumed that they would be better with KK selling them now (hopefully they've made their own instruction booklet!), but I wasn't 100% sure


I got mine direct from China just after WEAL, clearly written in the instructions, I have also tried to find Grainfather recomendations for boil and pump, same pump nd the answers I have found is not to run during the boil.


----------



## ABG

malt and barley blues said:


> I don't think WEAL's or KK's advice is needed for this one, anyone who has a Guten and read the instructions, it clearly states under, Circulation use of pump. Circulation of pump not necessary during boil process. Excessive heating of pump may cause damage.
> As the pumps of the Robobrew and Guten are the same and Keg Land states it is OK to run the pump during boil I think I would be erring on the side of caution and not running the pump simply because there is no need.



Kegland states it's okay to use and they stand behind their products. I've had 2 issues with product purchased from them - crap QA in both cases - both products replaced at no cost. If it's the same pump, one would think Keg King would stand behind it as well, if only to keep up with the level of service being offered by their largest competitor. 

As stated in my post above, running the pump during the boil is essential if you are going to run the pump during the chill. How else are you going to sanitise the pump and the wort in it?


----------



## malt and barley blues

First of all it is not from Keg King that it is not a good thing to run the pump during the boil it is from the manufacturers. Sure they say it is OK for a short while but if you are doing a 90 minute boil it is a no no.
Secondly why run the pump during the boil, what is it you are trying to achieve?


----------



## krz

malt and barley blues said:


> First of all it is not from Keg King that it is not a good thing to run the pump during the boil it is from the manufacturers. Sure they say it is OK for a short while but if you are doing a 90 minute boil it is a no no.
> Secondly why run the pump during the boil, what is it you are trying to achieve?


Fair point, I'll probably only run it now the last 10 mins of the boil to sterilize, and then whilst cooling.
Learn something new every week


----------



## ABG

malt and barley blues said:


> First of all it is not from Keg King that it is not a good thing to run the pump during the boil it is from the manufacturers. Sure they say it is OK for a short while but if you are doing a 90 minute boil it is a no no.
> Secondly why run the pump during the boil, what is it you are trying to achieve?


Re-read my last two posts on this thread. I've stated why twice. Is it the reading or comprehension you're having difficulties with?


----------



## ABG

krz said:


> Fair point, I'll probably only run it now the last 10 mins of the boil to sterilize, and then whilst cooling.
> Learn something new every week


Almost exactly what I do, except I run mine for 15 minutes.


----------



## Mya

ABG said:


> As stated in my post above, running the pump during the boil is essential if you are going to run the pump during the chill. How else are you going to sanitise the pump and the wort in it?



You kill 99.99% of bacteria, protozoa, and viruses at temperatures above 70 degC in under a minute.

CDC recommend boiling for a minute "just to be sure" to sterilise water. Boiling water is used just so anyone can be absolutely sure it has exceeded 70 degC (otherwise you'd need a thermometer, too hard to do most of the time if sterilising water eg in bush).

Boiling temperature itself is excessively high and 15 minutes is definitely excessively high.

Even 1 minute at boiling is more than is required to sterilise, plus it's only the wort in the riser tube on the pump outlet that might not get to above 70, although I still reckon it will after 60 minutes of boiling (the wort in the pump definitely will just from convection).

Even running after the boil before you start cooling will be sufficient.

Degradation of materials such as the pump rubber orings/seal from temperature will be time based, so the closer you are to the max temp the shorter it will last before failing. Minimising the time at elevated temperatures will increase the life span of the pump. It's not as though you magically get to a certain temperature and suddenly the materials fail, running with elevated temperatures through the pump will cause premature wear (albeit quite small if you are well below the maximum temp).


----------



## malt and barley blues

So you guys who are using the return pipe to whirlpool, are you filling the fermenter from the return pipe?


----------



## ABG

Mya said:


> You kill 99.99% of bacteria, protozoa, and viruses at temperatures above 70 degC in under a minute.
> 
> CDC recommend boiling for a minute "just to be sure" to sterilise water. Boiling water is used just so anyone can be absolutely sure it has exceeded 70 degC (otherwise you'd need a thermometer, too hard to do most of the time if sterilising water eg in bush).
> 
> Boiling temperature itself is excessively high and 15 minutes is definitely excessively high.
> 
> Even 1 minute at boiling is more than is required to sterilise, plus it's only the wort in the riser tube on the pump outlet that might not get to above 70, although I still reckon it will after 60 minutes of boiling (the wort in the pump definitely will just from convection).
> 
> Even running after the boil before you start cooling will be sufficient.
> 
> Degradation of materials such as the pump rubber orings/seal from temperature will be time based, so the closer you are to the max temp the shorter it will last before failing. Minimising the time at elevated temperatures will increase the life span of the pump. It's not as though you magically get to a certain temperature and suddenly the materials fail, running with elevated temperatures through the pump will cause premature wear (albeit quite small if you are well below the maximum temp).


Really good points you raise there. I've been working on sterilising the wort by exposing the wort in the pump to boiling temperatures for 15 minutes, which given I'm not putting it into a cube is unnecessary. All I really need to do is sanitise it as rightly pointed out above. I'll change my practice to turning the pump on 1 minute before flame out.

It's good to challenge thinking. @Mya I reckon your challenge to my way of thinking will give me a longer pump life with no real consequences to the quality of my beer. Cheers


----------



## Mya

Similarly, I've seen recommendations of putting your immersion cooler into your boiling wort 15 minutes before the boil has finished.

This is just overkill!

You can put the cooler in basically as soon as you finish the boil, it will still above 70 degC and you can let it sit there for a minute if you'd like.

I find putting the immersion cooler in during the boil will just inhibit good interaction between your hops and the wort.


----------



## Abird89

Mya said:


> Similarly, I've seen recommendations of putting your immersion cooler into your boiling wort 15 minutes before the boil has finished.
> 
> This is just overkill!
> 
> You can put the cooler in basically as soon as you finish the boil, it will still above 70 degC and you can let it sit there for a minute if you'd like.
> 
> I find putting the immersion cooler in during the boil will just inhibit good interaction between your hops and the wort.




I agree. I always give it a quick hose to get any dust off and then just whack it in at the end


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ABG said:


> Kegland states it's okay to use and they stand behind their products. I've had 2 issues with product purchased from them - crap QA in both cases - both products replaced at no cost. If it's the same pump, one would think Keg King would stand behind it as well, if only to keep up with the level of service being offered by their largest competitor.
> 
> As stated in my post above, running the pump during the boil is essential if you are going to run the pump during the chill. How else are you going to sanitise the pump and the wort in it?


When Keg Land states anything, its always better to check. The manufacturer certainly doesn't recommend going higher than 80 C. I bought one yesterday for whirl pooling from the ball valve.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

So today tried the whirl pool with the pump, started off just dandy, as the wort cooled the flow petered out. Without a shadow of a doubt it is the break material clogging up the helix. Siphoned the wort into the fermenter. Next brew will be with a dip tube made with a helix off cut, elbow and reducer with a fine s/steel mesh fitted in the shoulder of the reducer.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I know you aren't a fan, but have you tried out a bottom screen before?
My bottom screen is amazing, 160g in the last boil, then chilled and it drained perfectly.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Yes, I really like the helix, that works brilliant if it is going into the cube hot, I would just have liked to get it to work when the wort has cooled. I will give the shorter dip tube type a try with the next brew.
I can get the Brau Meister to drain perfectly without any screens there, just because it has a small aperture on the tap.


----------



## krz

An idea!

Suppose you cool the wort then remove the immersion chiller.
Then create a whirlpool using a paddle, before pumping into the fermenter.

Wouldn't that minimise amount of debris picked up by the pump?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Fro-Daddy said:


> I know you aren't a fan, but have you tried out a bottom screen before?
> My bottom screen is amazing, 160g in the last boil, then chilled and it drained perfectly.


Where did you get a bottom screen from?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

It came with the Robobrew 

KL sell the screen separately though, could check the diameter to see if it would fit?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

krz said:


> An idea!
> 
> Suppose you cool the wort then remove the immersion chiller.
> Then create a whirlpool using a paddle, before pumping into the fermenter.
> 
> Wouldn't that minimise amount of debris picked up by the pump?


It would, but that wouldn't sanitise the tap. What I wanted to achieve was to be still able to use the helix, my thinking was if I got the wort flowing through the helix initially that it may not block as the wort cooled.
So it is back to the drawing board, pretty confident that the pick up will work.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> It would, but that wouldn't sanitise the tap.



Just drain off a little bit of wort through the tap before chilling. Sanitization problem solved


----------



## goatchop41

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Where did you get a bottom screen from?



I believe that this is what he is referring to. I was wondering if it would fit the Guten. Seems that we now have confirmation. I might look in to it, as I'm looking to finally start using my chiller soon


----------



## fdsaasdf

I haven't seen a guten but thought they had a larger diameter than the robobrew 35.

I have one of those screens and it fits perfectly in my MJ stainless fermenter, I use it to strain fruit chucked in loose. Worked a treat so far for rapsberries and blueberries.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

fdsaasdf said:


> I haven't seen a guten but thought they had a larger diameter than the robobrew 35.
> 
> I have one of those screens and it fits perfectly in my MJ stainless fermenter, I use it to strain fruit chucked in loose. Worked a treat so far for rapsberries and blueberries.


Smaller dia, just, and then there is the grain basket retainer on the inside. The problem with a screen is they will filter out hop flowers but not the cold break and pellets. I think the dip tube will work along with the little mag drive pump, cheap alternative if cooling the wort with an immersion chiller.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Pellets turn to mush and it stops them from touching the bottom of the kettle. Tons of pics online showing a 'hop cake' after the boil.
Is cold break an issue going in to the fermenter? You can ditch the helix so that's no longer an issue.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> Is cold break an issue going in to the fermenter? You can ditch the helix so that's no longer an issue.


Here is what Fix and Kunze have to say.
Fix in “Principals of Brewing Science (2nd Edition)”:

_“The group of interest here is the long-chain, unsaturated fatty acids that are derived from malt. They are typically found in wort trub (i.e., particles suspended in the wort), which can consist of as much as 50% lipids (Meilgaard, 1977). *Cloudy wort can contain anywhere from 5 to 40 times the unsaturated fatty-acid content of clear wort, an important fact because unsaturated fatty acids can have a significant negative effect even at low concentrations*. On the positive side, fatty acids contribute to yeast viability via a number of mechanisms (see chapter 3), and they also inhibit the formation of some less pleasant acetate esters during fermentation (see chapter 3). On the negative side, *they work against beer foam stability,* as any fatty material does. *Even more significantly, they play an important role in beer staling* (see chapter 4). Thus, some investigations have reported that wort clarity (via trub removal) is essential (Zangrando, 1979), whereas other investigators have found some carryover of unsaturated fatty acids in the trub to be beneficial (Hough et al., 1981). *In spite of these advantages, brewers still prefer clarified worts with minimum trub carryover, if for no other reason than the negative role wort-derived fatty acids play in beer staling. *Another class of beer-staling constituents consists of fatty acids. In beer, fatty acids come from two sources, namely, unsaturated fatty acids from wort trub and saturated ones from yeast metabolism. As discussed in chapter 3, the saturated fatty acids can react with alcohols to form esters. The unsaturated fatty acids, on the other hand, are major players in beer staling. They tend to be fairly resistant to oxidation and spill over into the finished beer where they tend to produce “fatty or goaty notes.””_

Kunze in “Technology of Brewing and Malting (5th Edition)”:

_During malting the lipids are partly broken down and this breakdown is continued during mashing. This breakdown will later be of great interest to us. A large part of the lipids is later precipitated with the trub. *Cloudy lautering and poor trub excretion lead to large amounts of free fatty acids in the wort, which the yeast cells require to produce new cell substances, but which can also contribute to a reduction in flavour stability.*_

_Removal of the coarse break (coarse trub). The break from the cast wort is now called coarse break, as well as boiled or hot break. It consists of large particles, 30 – 80 μm in size, which are slightly heavier than the wort and in general settle down well to form a compact mass if they are given sufficient time. *The coarse break must be removed since it is not only of no value in further beer production,but also actually detrimental to quality:*_
*• Hinders wort clarification*

*• Increases the amount of break-rich sediment and thereby increases the loss*

*• Makes beer filtration more difficult if it is not removed at the right time.*

_*Whirlpool* – Whirlpools have been installed for break removal in increasing numbers since about 1960. It is the most elegant method for hot break removal and is the least costly alternative of all trub removal methods._

_*Cold break *– At about 60 °C the previously clear wort will start to become turbid. This turbidity is due to small particles about 0.5 μm in diameter. This is therefore called fine, cool or cold break (cold trub). Because of its small size, cold break settles only with great difficulty…It has the property of adhering to other particles, e.g. yeast cells or air bubbles. When it adheres to yeast cells it decreases the yeast contact surface and thereby reduces the fermentation rate. This is referred to as “coating” the yeast. Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds which precipitate to a greater extent in relatively cold media and partially dissolve again on warming. This means that wort on cooling to 5 °C still contains 14% of the total cold break in dissolved form. A residual amount of cold break at discharge of 120-160 mg/I dry matter is desirable [199]. *A reduction of the cold break content to approximately this value can result in:*_

*• A more rounded beer flavor, particularly in the bitterness*

*• An improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids),*

*• An improvement of the flavour stability*

*• A more intensive fermentation.*

_To remove the cold break the following methods can be used (Sect. 3.9.4):_
*• Filtration (using Perlite)*

*• Flotation,*

*• Sedimentation or*

*• Separation.*
_*The cold break is only formed later after the coarse break has already been removed*. Separate equipment is therefore required for the removal of coarse and cold break. Nowadays the cold break is not usually removed. A prerequisite for this, however, is an optimal hot break removal and fermentative yeast (assimilation yeast). With a powerful course of fermentation, a distinctive flavour, good flavour stability and good foam stability can be expected._


----------



## fdsaasdf

Fro-Daddy said:


> Pellets turn to mush and it stops them from touching the bottom of the kettle. Tons of pics online showing a 'hop cake' after the boil.
> Is cold break an issue going in to the fermenter? You can ditch the helix so that's no longer an issue.


The bottom screen in the Robobrew 65 reliably keeps most of the trub cone on top of it in my experience. Can't see an issue with cold break as it forms inside the no-chill cubes without detrimental effect...


----------



## Reg Holt

When no chilling it makes it relatively simple to remove, pour into fermenter carefully and the last drop either save for starters or filter it through a couple of paper towels into fermenter.


----------



## fdsaasdf

Reg Holt said:


> When no chilling it makes it relatively simple to remove, pour into fermenter carefully and the last drop either save for starters or filter it through a couple of paper towels into fermenter.


I wouldn't be putting paper towels anywhere near my sanitised fermenter at this stage of the process. You could use a paint strainer bag but I don't bother, everything in the cube ends up in the fermenter.


----------



## Reg Holt

I should have mentioned that I sanitise the towels beforehand, some cold break will still get through, not enough to cause any concern. My own preference is to keep it out of the fermenter than in, for reasons as stated above.


----------



## poacher

My bottom filter screen was a loose fit with a few gaps on the 30Lt Guten & letting a bit of grain through, fitted a braumeister 20lt malt pipe seal.
Works a treat.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Good thinking mate I have some spare BM seals, never thought of checking the size, is it a pain to get the screen in?


----------



## poacher

Slips straight in like it was made for it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

poacher said:


> Slips straight in like it was made for it.


Well, there you go. Got spares hanging in my shed and never thought to try them, though I have never really had trouble with anything getting past the screen like some seem to have.

Another thing I noticed on my last brew day was I reduced the wattage to 1800w during the mash cycle and never got any scorch marks.


----------



## Grok




----------



## Grok

Here's a few ideas for peeps, my rather crude but effective gas booster coil using the on board pump. I use it to get to boil quicker after sparging, and of course it sanitizers all the pipes and tap as well. A decent heat exchange hot box would be better, but I knocked up in a hurry to try the idea, and like a lot of things, becomes semi permanent (lazy me!).The 2 tap brass manifold is from Bunnings garden dept, Holman brand I think, with silicon hoses it is way better and more versatile than the stupid metal pipe the unit comes with. Actually that metal hook pipe is good used in reverse on the end of my filling hose, sits on the top of the vessels nicely whilst filling. Used the quick connect part on the new brass manifold. The silicon hose is way better and easier to poke thru the top lid hole and wetting down the new grist when grain gets poured in for mashing. I've had one of these units for a couple of years direct from the China manufacturer, seems to go ok, had switch melt on me and stop working half way thru a brew, just a one off crappy switch I think, replaced with one from Jaycar, no problems since.


----------



## Hop To It

Can anyone please tell me the rough maximum capacities (total, mash, pre and post boil) of the Guten 50?

Cannot seem to find it and a mate is trying to compare it to the brew zilla 65L.


----------



## lespaul

Been thinking about the wort scorching. I've tried using low power settings to alleviate but didn't seem to stop it. I still think I'm getting grains in my boil so the idea of a brau seal is a great idea! I was planning on using a silicone hose but I'm really glad someone else has already troubleshooted.
I was wondering if maybe polishing the heating element would help? Only concern would be any residue left from the cleaning product. 
Hopefully a polish on the element would discourage anything sticking to it. Any merit?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Hop To It said:


> Can anyone please tell me the rough maximum capacities (total, mash, pre and post boil) of the Guten 50?
> 
> Cannot seem to find it and a mate is trying to compare it to the brew zilla 65L.


It is in this thread, dibbz posted it sometime ago 46.7 or 47.6 litres (can't remember which) maximum boil.


lespaul said:


> Been thinking about the wort scorching. I've tried using low power settings to alleviate but didn't seem to stop it. I still think I'm getting grains in my boil so the idea of a brau seal is a great idea! I was planning on using a silicone hose but I'm really glad someone else has already troubleshooted.
> I was wondering if maybe polishing the heating element would help? Only concern would be any residue left from the cleaning product.
> Hopefully a polish on the element would discourage anything sticking to it. Any merit?


A good polished finish over the elements could deter scorching, I have dropped my wattage to 1700 and I just get a milky looking residue over the element which wipes off quite easily.


----------



## lespaul

How would you go about polishing though? I'm worried stainless polish is not the best thing to have in the urn


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I've used wet and dry from around a medium grit to fine and finishing off with a paste of calcium carbonate to get a mirror finish on stainless steel. But not on the Guten have you tried lowering the mash wattage? That is where the scorching seems to come from, I have emptied the kettle a couple of times after the mash and cleaned the base, since mashing at 1700 w the problem seems to have improved.


----------



## lespaul

Ok, I might try a paste of calcium carbonate.
From memory, my last mash was ramping at 800W between steps and a final step at 2000W to boil.
Still think a lot of my issues are from grain matter in the boil, so hopefully, I solve that with the silicone and I solve the wort scorching.
Would love to see a low-density coil element on the V2 though. I remember having the exact same issues ages ago when I would BIAB in a 40lt concealed element urn. Im having flashbacks >.<


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> Well, there you go. Got spares hanging in my shed and never thought to try them, though I have never really had trouble with anything getting past the screen like some seem to have.
> 
> Another thing I noticed on my last brew day was I reduced the wattage to 1800w during the mash cycle and never got any scorch marks.



1600W keeps the Guten 50L steady at 65C 
(well yesterday it 35C in Melbourne, so that helped)


----------



## Abird89

krz said:


> 1600W keeps the Guten 50L steady at 65C
> (well yesterday it 35C in Melbourne, so that helped)


I found 1000 watt was ok for it. I use 1200 as a norm now


----------



## Reg Holt

While I don't use any steps in the step mash program, I do use different watts towards each step, good to know it can go as low as 1000 w for the mash. Anyone else have trouble with scorching like lespaul?
I am about to do my third brew on the Guten and did have scorch marks over the element at 2000 w dropped the wattage for the second brew to 1500 w.


----------



## Grok

After about 50 brews with my 35L (now called) Guten, I have no issues with scorching and I use full power 2500w all the time, no staining either. Use Tricleanium with hot water and a few drops of detergent for all stainless and general cleaning, let it soak for a bit, works a treat!


----------



## lespaul

Never heard of Tricleanium. What strength do you mix it up to? Any reason you use that, over say, Sodium Percarbonate?

+1 to the Brau seal, fits like a glove!!! When I got it, it didn't fit but after wetting the malt pipe it slid down nice and snug. 
Sounds like the overall problem with scorching is most likely grain particles in the boil. Hopefully with this seal it won't be an issue.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The scorching is from the sugar, not grain particles.


----------



## Grok

It is Trisodium Phosphate (TSP), an old product and has many uses around the home, look it up on wikipedia. You can find it at Bunnings in the paint section right next to the sugar soap. Perfect for stainless as the neutralized phosphoric acid helps to "pickle" the metal and great for squeaky clean drinking glasses too! But it is NOT a sanitizer!
I use Sodium Percarbonate as a sanitizer and TSP as a cleaner. Strength? up to you, I use a lid full (1/4 cup) in bucket of hot water (reclaimed from cooling the wort) for all the clean up after brew day session, clean as I go. I also keep some in a squirty spray bottle near the sink when I clean my beer glass after use.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Maybe this is the reason why some people keep getting grain in the boil?


----------



## fdsaasdf

Fro-Daddy said:


> Maybe this is the reason why some people keep getting grain in the boil?



Wow... no way I would buy a Guten after watching that video. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Abird89

fdsaasdf said:


> Wow... no way I would buy a Guten after watching that video. Thanks for posting.



I’ve got a Guten 50l and a robo v2. Never had any issues with grain in the boil with either of them. I am mindful of the movement in the Guten though and take extra care when pouring grain in, stirring etc


----------



## Cian Doyle

I am about to do my 5th brew on the Guten have found it to perform exceptionally well, never had any grain escape the mash tun, and also have peace of mind of that the Guten comes with a 2 year warranty.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I like this guy's youtube channel, I have a guten and regulate the flow when mashing so overflow doesn't worry me and I watch all the while Im brewing. A few stray grains I am not worried about though as if I get 10g of grain in a mash out of a 5Kg grain bill I can live with that, and I guess if I ever want to mash sideways I better buy a Brewzilla.


----------



## Reg Holt

I got a 40 liter Guten second hand, still under warranty. Now I understand why the guy I got it off got rid of it, he upgraded to the 50 liter Guten, and that's where I am at now wish I had waited for the bigger unit. Whats the warranty on the Brewzilla?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Don't all electrical appliances have a statutory warranty of 3 years or something no matter what the manufacturer warranty is?
Probably some info here https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees


----------



## krz

fdsaasdf said:


> Wow... no way I would buy a Guten after watching that video. Thanks for posting.


I watched that video as well, I like his channel and have respect for him.

I think what he compared he did well, I like the lifting tabs on the brewzilla.
The screen I dont give a shit about, I have a guten 50L and have had no problems whatsoever. (btw nor with the lifting tabs).
The malt pipe on the guten is good enough for me. That is wobbles is no surprise, its made up of 6 pieces all threaded together, of course it would wobble.
If I had an adjustable malt pipe, I doubt I would use it, I use about the same amount of grain each time, otherwise my fermenter complains.

Would I like a 65 litres compared to a 50L, yes I would, this is because I have a 66 litre fermenter, and I only get 2 kegs out of each batch, not 3.

Looking forward to the next part where electronics etc are compared./


----------



## Grok

I think he has the bottom screen up the wrong way, I use my the other way and have never had grain leakage thru it. 
Here's a couple of mods I have done to mine that I think improve using it.

1. Handle for the top screen. Drill a hole thru each stub handle post and get stainless wire ( I used a TIG rod) and bend it to the required shape with hands or pliers, thread the drilled stub posts on the ends before you do the last bends on the outsides, then screw them back onto the screen, it is way better to grab and lift with one hand without getting hot wort on your skin.



2.Joined the centre pipe with a spot of weld to make it one length (or get another piece of pipe) so the top screen can slide down as far as you like.



3. Made up a spring loaded gambrel attached to an overhead rope and pulley to lift up the malt pipe instead of using the clunky handle supplied with the unit. It works really good and can use it with one hand while the other is working the rope.


----------



## Cian Doyle

Fro-Daddy said:


> Don't all electrical appliances have a statutory warranty of 3 years or something no matter what the manufacturer warranty is?
> Probably some info here https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees


Electrical appliances come under consumer guarantee but it isn't one size fits all, each case will be taken on its own merit. The retailer can offer a warranty on any defective parts which may be incorporated in the said item, in the case of the Guten it is 2 years, certainly makes it easier than having to go through small claims.


----------



## goatchop41

Grok said:


> I think he has the bottom screen up the wrong way, I use my the other way and have never had grain leakage thru it.



Nope, the way that he has it in is right. If you have it in the other way, when the weight of the grain pushes down the middle of the screen it can cause the edges to lift, which can theoretically cause the screen to fall out of the bottom of the malt pipe. The way that he has it, the weight of the grain pushing down on the screen will make it spread outwards further and keep it nicely wedged in the malt pipe.


----------



## goatchop41

Fro-Daddy said:


> Maybe this is the reason why some people keep getting grain in the boil?





fdsaasdf said:


> Wow... no way I would buy a Guten after watching that video. Thanks for posting.



It is a pretty pointless comparison, really. In actual use, you have the weight of both the water and grain pushing down on the screen, which then keeps it stable. The reality of usage is completely different to him holding the thing up on its side


----------



## fdsaasdf

goatchop41 said:


> It is a pretty pointless comparison, really. In actual use, you have the weight of both the water and grain pushing down on the screen, which then keeps it stable. The reality of usage is completely different to him holding the thing up on its side


My comment was based on the flimsiness of the entire unit, nothing to do with any contrived sideways mashing.


----------



## nifty

goatchop41 said:


> Nope, the way that he has it in is right. If you have it in the other way, when the weight of the grain pushes down the middle of the screen it can cause the edges to lift, which can theoretically cause the screen to fall out of the bottom of the malt pipe. The way that he has it, the weight of the grain pushing down on the screen will make it spread outwards further and keep it nicely wedged in the malt pipe.



I've been using my 50lt guten for 18 months now with the bottom screen the other way around from what he is showing and have not once had any grain come through or the bottom screen deform and push through. I've done 7, 8, 9 and 10kg grain batches and it has never looked like it would push through with the weigh of the grain.

My model was purchased before any of the local homebrew shops imported them, so maybe the model specs changed from when i bought to now.

cheers
steve


----------



## York

fdsaasdf said:


> My comment was based on the flimsiness of the entire unit, nothing to do with any contrived sideways mashing.


I looked at that video and it was pretty obvious where the sympathies lay. Good way to destroy a product reputation though.


----------



## goatchop41

nifty said:


> I've been using my 50lt guten for 18 months now with the bottom screen the other way around from what he is showing and have not once had any grain come through or the bottom screen deform and push through. I've done 7, 8, 9 and 10kg grain batches and it has never looked like it would push through with the weigh of the grain.
> 
> My model was purchased before any of the local homebrew shops imported them, so maybe the model specs changed from when i bought to now.
> 
> cheers
> steve



You'll note the word "theoretically" in my post. I'm not saying that it will, I'm saying that it could


----------



## goatchop41

fdsaasdf said:


> My comment was based on the flimsiness of the entire unit, nothing to do with any contrived sideways mashing.



I think that you'll find that the entire unit is quite robust (especially the circuit board, which is significantly better quality than the RB). Besides the thinner plates inside the malt pipe, exactly what other things in the video were comparatively flimsy?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

fdsaasdf said:


> My comment was based on the flimsiness of the entire unit, nothing to do with any contrived sideways mashing.


I will agree the malt pipe is a thinner gauge, doesn't have any effect on performance, Robo Brew 1,2, and 3 were all heavier gauge than the Guten pity the circuit boards weren't up to the job, mine is over 2 years old now and has done more brews than most. The Brewzilla is new and with 3 elements, best wait 2 years before doing any crowing. 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating'


----------



## razz

Thank you Weal for using the correct phrase for “the pudding” Every time someone on tv says it they stuff it up. “The proof is in the pudding” aaagghhh. Sorry folks, completely off topic and rant over.


----------



## malliemcg

Hi all,

I hope this is the right place to be posting this. My lovely wife just gifted to me a 40L guten , a very happy man I am. However I have bumped into an issue, I can not for the life of me work out how to save a program. I fiddled with the guten this evening to clean it out, familiarise myself with it and get ready for a brew next weekend after I get all the ingredients. I think I've managed to set the temperature correctly (+2.3C for the C1 value) for Canberra so that the controller will recognise that the liquid is boiling (prior to setting that, it the boil countdown would not kick off) ; No idea what the C2 is used for so left it alone.

The issue I have though is successfully saving a recipie. I go through the process of holding down POWER + TIMER for 5 seconds, selecting a recipie slot, programming it all out. Then I hold down the MANUAL/PAUSE button for 5 seconds (and then when I release it, a noise happens). However if I power the machine off, or next time I select that recipie slot everything is back to factory defaults. I am pretty sure that I am misinterpreting something in the manual, and was hoping someone with a little more experience might be able to point me in the right direction to save a recipie.

M

*Follow up - I think I've worked it out* (found some other instructions for one of the US branded variants of this device). 

The key was
1) Program the brew and hit Auto at the end, until the default "Blank" (temperature only) screen is displaying.
2) Hit the Manual/Pause button
3) Press the Manual/Pause button (a series of musical chime tones will sound). 

The recipie should be saved over power cycles.


----------



## lespaul

I would check the temp against a scientific thermometer. Mine was out by a degree to begin with and that's at sea level.
Enjoy the brew equipment!!!


----------



## krz

Today I think I pushed the 50L Guten to its limit.
I attempted this recipe "Bell's Two Hearted IPA" but scaled up for the Guten 50L.
The grain bill totalled 13.48kg into 35 litres mash.
I ended up only getting 12.7kg into the 35 litres, probably next time try the 13.48 into 30L.
Anyway here a few pictures.

This is the mash with about 12kg grain into the 35 Litres of water. pump is off.







Full 12.7kg grain is in, but without top plate. 
Pump is on slightly.
Note the lifting holes are now submerged!





Now I stop the pump, and the lifting holes become visible.
But because the end of the return pipe is submerged, you dont know if its flowing.
I want to put the top filter screen on, but I cant because its still too high.





So, I take out about 4 litres via the pump (i later return the wort), so that I can unscrew the top malt pip connector in order to slide on the top filter screen.
I connect a silicone tube to the return pipe, so I can monitor the flow rate.
Now the top screen is on and there is a flow rate, and the wort is not exiting via the lifting holes - just.






Im not going to stand there all day holding the silicone hose, so I stick it in the lid hole so that it doesnt fall out of the pot.
Also, I can monitor and adjust the flow rate.







My Conclusion.

Thats about the limit of the 50L Guten.
After sparge I ended up with 45 litres, and after boil about 42L. SG was 1.060 target was 1.068.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Reg Holt suggested the all thread going across the malt pipe blocking the holes and also providing a handle for lifting. Not only that if you leave enough thread on the out side of the holes it means you can lift the malt pipe that bit higher, resting the protruding thread on the wire rim. Boil off should be about 5 litres per hour, did you measure the remaining wort while still hot, or after cooling?

This is what I did with the Brau Wolf but the supporting bracket is triangular so it didn't work.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Another question, how the hell did you lift it? It took me three goes to lift almost 12 kg of wet grain from the mash tun, maybe I should have put it on the deck.


----------



## lespaul

@krz do you have the gravity reading from the 35lt mash? Just out of curiosity


----------



## Ballaratguy

Ok guys I’m about to modify your idea about the lifting holes in the malt pipe
I’ve got 2 x 1/2” bolts & nuts (the bolts are 40mm long) the bolts will be put through the malt pipe from the outside leaving the bolt head on the outside of the malt pipe. This will allow the malt pipe to sit as normal in the Guten. Or the malt pie can be lifted and turned to allow the bolt heads to rest on the wire thus raising the malt pipe
I’m also going to make spring loaded lifting handle which will have a pipe welded to the ends of the lifting handle (the advantage of being able to weld stainless steel). These pipes will then slip over the bolt ends allowing the malt pipe to be lifted (I’m also going to make a small gantry crane for this)
By doing it this way you are not putting a bar or all thread across the overflow pipe
I’ll post pictures once I have it completed


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It's (3/8")10 mm bolts for the holes in the malt pipe. It does seem like the overflow pipe is in the way but it moves over easily. I would never use original design of suspending the malt pipe, two or three times it ended up dropping through when I was doughing in, and its a devil to get back out.


----------



## Ballaratguy

Mine measured up as 1/2”


----------



## Ballaratguy

Found this on Facebook. I’m surprised he hasn’t sold it yet
If anyone’s looking for one.....


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> Reg Holt suggested the all thread going across the malt pipe blocking the holes and also providing a handle for lifting. Not only that if you leave enough thread on the out side of the holes it means you can lift the malt pipe that bit higher, resting the protruding thread on the wire rim. Boil off should be about 5 litres per hour, did you measure the remaining wort while still hot, or after cooling?
> View attachment 115307
> This is what I did with the Brau Wolf but the supporting bracket is triangular so it didn't work.



I saw some photos from you with the threaded bar across. 
I thinks thats a worthwhile mod, for me, just to get the extra 1 - 2 litres in.

I lost close top 5 litres during the boil, maybe 4 and I measures the wort cool, I took a sample, cooled it, then measured in the refractometer.


----------



## krz

lespaul said:


> @krz do you have the gravity reading from the 35lt mash? Just out of curiosity


Yes I have but it didnt make lot of sense this time.

It was 1.046 pre boil, after sparge.
It was 1.060 post boil.


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> Another question, how the hell did you lift it? It took me three goes to lift almost 12 kg of wet grain from the mash tun, maybe I should have put it on the deck.



I didnt find it that hard to lift it.
When I first got the guten I was a bit paranoid about the lifting soaked grain, luckily Aldi had a special buy on and I bought a 1-2 Ton block and tackle.
I used the block and tackle for 2 brews, after that it sat in the cupboard gathering dust with a number of other things I have bought.
Even with 12.5kg soaked grain, I can lift it. Its a little scary with that dodgy lifting handle. Maybe, one day I'll drop it, but not yet.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

krz said:


> Yes I have but it didnt make lot of sense this time.
> 
> It was 1.046 pre boil, after sparge.
> It was 1.060 post boil.


Make sure you mix the wort after you sparge, before you take a reading. If you're taking a refrac reading and just getting a sample from the top it is quite diluted.

I have had this happen during a brew before was expecting 1.046 and got 1.016! Slight panic, then realized what had happened. Gave it a stir and it was fine.


----------



## Ballaratguy

Ballaratguy said:


> Mine measured up as 1/2”


I Remeasured the hole and found that it is actually 11mm
The 1/2” bolt will screw into that size hole making it a nice firm fit


----------



## nosco

Hi all. Got up early to brew this today but my Guten keeps turning on and off. I have a Smartpid installed in it. Ive been using it for a long time. Today its decided to start turning on and off during the mash. It will turn on for about 30 secs and then turn off again. After a minute it will power up again and the Smartpid will ask if I want to resume. Repeat. A bit pissed off. Its only when the elements and pump are going. If I leave it in a menu then its ok.

Any idea's?

Edit: not surprisingly its only when the element is on 100%. Getting to the next mash step is going to take a while


----------



## YAPN

nosco said:


> Any idea's?


When mine did this (no Smartpid) I found a few square inches of charred material on the bottom of the unit. Batch was ruined. Figured I had the pump return pipe open too much and it was taking too much liquid from under the malt pipe. 

Don't know if this helps.


----------



## nosco

Could be right there. It turned of again heating up to the next step. I lifted out the malt pipe to let it drain and it worked fine. I accidentally mashed in at 52c. Trying to put in a recipe at 5.30am was a bad move . My Bo Pils accidentally got a protein rest so there was a heap of haze. Hopefully it hasnt burned to the bottom. I am pretty carefull when opening up the recirc so should be ok. It was no where near over flowing. Ill give the element a scrape before the boil.

Cheers.


----------



## nosco

Yep it scorched on the element. Thats a tipper. I also tried the whirlpool arm from KK. You cant use it with the lid on and the pump got blocked which has never happened to me before. I wont bother with it next brew.


----------



## YAPN

nosco said:


> the pump got blocked which has never happened to me before


That's what likely happened to me too. 

I think I remember WEAL explaining that some combination of the recirc pipe being opened/closed and the pump being switched on/off will result in some drawback into the recirc pipe. I really should pay more attention.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

YAPN said:


> That's what likely happened to me too.
> 
> I think I remember WEAL explaining that some combination of the recirc pipe being opened/closed and the pump being switched on/off will result in some drawback into the recirc pipe. I really should pay more attention.


That's true, the tap has to be turned off simultaneously because of the return pipe's height cutting the power to the pump creates a syphon sucking the wort back and any grain in its path.

Nosco ask kegKing the best price on the mag pump from the Guten or Robobrew connect it to the whirlpool and the tap but be aware whether it's the Robobrew or the Guten highest temperature rating is 80 degrees C.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Someone recently mentioned in a thread, the Guten S/Steel conical fermenter, I wasn't super impressed with the one I saw in KK shop, and because they had released the Snubby I didn't think they were going ahead with it. I have asked about it and it is still going ahead, with changes, larger dump valve, without the chiller, and able to pressure ferment to 15 psi price $199 for 30 litre capacity.


----------



## Truman42

Hi guys, Im just trying to setup my beer smith profile and am not 100% sure on the settings for Recoverable mash deadspace and mash dead space losses. I copied the settings from this post here 
GUTEN

He had mash tun addition at 3.41 litres and Lauter tun losses at 3.41 litres but I cant work out why we have any losses when we dont transfer to another vessel anyway?


----------



## chesl73

There is mash tun space which is the amount of water sitting below the false bottom. I have this at 8 L. I would set the lauter setting to zero.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Truman42 said:


> Hi guys, Im just trying to setup my beer smith profile and am not 100% sure on the settings for Recoverable mash deadspace and mash dead space losses. I copied the settings from this post here
> GUTEN
> 
> He had mash tun addition at 3.41 litres and Lauter tun losses at 3.41 litres but I cant work out why we have any losses when we dont transfer to another vessel anyway?


Whatever grain to liquor ratio you are using, say for example 4 litres per kilo of grain and a 5 kg grain bill you will need 20 litres of water (which you are mashing into) plus the 3.41 litres which is below the mash tun, 23.41 litres of water.
I lose 5 litres per hour on the boil and between .8 and .9 litres per kilo loss to grain absorption.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> Whatever grain to liquor ratio you are using, say for example 4 litres per kilo of grain and a 5 kg grain bill you will need 20 litres of water (which you are mashing into) plus the 3.41 litres which is below the mash tun, 23.41 litres of water.
> I lose 5 litres per hour on the boil and between .8 and .9 litres per kilo loss to grain absorption.


5 litres per hour?? What power setting are you boiling at?

So is it "recoverable mash dead space" or "mash dead space losses" I need to put in 3.41 litres? Im using Beersmth 3 which is different to what Magical pancake has in his post which says "Mash tun addition" and "Lauter tun losses". and he has 3.41 Litres set in both fields.


----------



## Reg Holt

Truman42 said:


> 5 litres per hour?? What power setting are you boiling at?
> 
> So is it "recoverable mash dead space" or "mash dead space losses" I need to put in 3.41 litres? Im using Beersmth 3 which is different to what Magical pancake has in his post which says "Mash tun addition" and "Lauter tun losses". and he has 3.41 Litres set in both fields.


Once you have everything worked out, don't go confusing yourself with dead space ( no it isn't a loss) the important factors are loss to grain absorption, loss to evaporation and loss to trub. I am a fairly new to the Guten but first of I made a measuring rod marking off increments of 2 litres. My loss is also 5 litres per hour on 2000 watts, I call my absorption loss 1 litre / kilo of grain but I could probably claw some of that back if I set the mash tun over a bowl to catch every drop.


----------



## Mya

My losses are 2.75 L/hr at 2200W. Are you guys at 5L/hr using the 60L guten? 

Another important thing I've found is that the minimum water volume you can use is about 22L with a normal 5.5 kg ish mash to ensure there's enough water in the bottom of the kettle during mash to keep the circulation going and not run the pump dry.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I have mainly been doing around 5-5.5kg grain bills and I just fill to the 20 Litre mark (which is 22 litres) this while unscientific gives me a mash of between 2.7 and 3.2 ratio depending on grain weight, then I sparge to my boil level which is normally just above the 6 gallon mark (26 Litres) If I'm doing a 90 minute boil I go another 2 litres. I seem to get my numbers most times or very close to them.


----------



## Reg Holt

Mya said:


> My losses are 2.75 L/hr at 2200W. Are you guys at 5L/hr using the 60L guten?
> 
> Another important thing I've found is that the minimum water volume you can use is about 22L with a normal 5.5 kg ish mash to ensure there's enough water in the bottom of the kettle during mash to keep the circulation going and not run the pump dry.


That is a very low boil off rate, you should be around 4.75 to 5 litres mine is a 40 litre Guten.


----------



## goatchop41

Reg Holt said:


> That is a very low boil off rate, you should be around 4.75 to 5 litres mine is a 40 litre Guten.



No, it shouldn't be anything in particular. Just because you get that, doesn't mean that anyone else should. Different brewers will have different losses, even with the same brewing system.
Elevation, ambient temperature, humidity, covered/uncovered/partially covered, power setting, etc. will all affect boil off rates.

No one should be aiming for a certain boil off rate. Just do a run with water in your usual brewing environment and measure the boil off rate from that, and use it as a starting point.


----------



## goatchop41

Truman42 said:


> So is it "recoverable mash dead space" or "mash dead space losses" I need to put in 3.41 litres? Im using Beersmth 3 which is different to what Magical pancake has in his post which says "Mash tun addition" and "Lauter tun losses". and he has 3.41 Litres set in both fields.



I believe that it is recoverable mash dead space - dead space under the mash tun that is recovered. There are no lauter tun or mash losses in an all in one system, besides grain absorption.

When trying to work out what these are, you can usually hover over the entry box for them in BS and it will give you a description of it, that should help. As well as actually looking at the tutorials and info in the help manual, of course


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> No, it shouldn't be anything in particular. Just because you get that, doesn't mean that anyone else should. Different brewers will have different losses, even with the same brewing system.
> Elevation, ambient temperature, humidity, covered/uncovered/partially covered, power setting, etc. will all affect boil off rates.
> 
> No one should be aiming for a certain boil off rate. Just do a run with water in your usual brewing environment and measure the boil off rate from that, and use it as a starting point.


I have 5 litre boil off, I would say anywhere between 4 to 5 litres would be the norm, the only thing that I have found which will reduce the boil off is the amount of scorching on the base, twice I have had to empty mine because the boil wasn't hardly registering. Mashing on a lower wattage seems to reduce that, there is a good article on BYO about boil off and what to expect and under 3 litres is low.


----------



## Truman42

goatchop41 said:


> I believe that it is recoverable mash dead space - dead space under the mash tun that is recovered. There are no lauter tun or mash losses in an all in one system, besides grain absorption.
> 
> When trying to work out what these are, you can usually hover over the entry box for them in BS and it will give you a description of it, that should help. As well as actually looking at the tutorials and info in the help manual, of course


Ah ok that makes sense. I tried holding the cursor over the entry box but nothing came up. Im on the trial version of BS3 so maybe thats why.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> Some piece of mind knowing that the Guten is now going to be covered by a 2 year warranty.



So I just brought one secondhand that was purchased 4 months ago and the seller said he would send me the invoice from his email for warranty. 

I reminded him that he still hasnt sent it and was told that he was waiting for KK to send him a copy. If I dont manage to get this invoice copy whats my grounds for warranty should I need it?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You have the current model which is the one with all the chimes and pause and mark time then you will be OK.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> You have the current model which is the one with all the chimes and pause and mark time then you will be OK.



Are these a decent model?

Also can you please clarify that the 5 litre boil off per hour is that the 50 litre or the 40 litre? Mines a 40 litre.


----------



## goatchop41

Truman42 said:


> Are these a decent model?
> 
> Also can you please clarify that the 5 litre boil off per hour is that the 50 litre or the 40 litre? Mines a 40 litre.



Don't worry about other people's boil off rate mate. Work out what yours is as I mentioned earlier, then use that for the software. Other people have different environments and usage methods, so their results aren't really useful to you


----------



## Truman42

goatchop41 said:


> Don't worry about other people's boil off rate mate. Work out what yours is as I mentioned earlier, then use that for the software. Other people have different environments and usage methods, so their results aren't really useful to you


I was looking for ball park to set beer smith up, but will use 4 litres and see how it goes.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Truman42 said:


> Are these a decent model?
> 
> Also can you please clarify that the 5 litre boil off per hour is that the 50 litre or the 40 litre? Mines a 40 litre.


They are a better model, depending on what you are looking for, recipe memory, hop addition reminder something like 9 steps which you don't really need with the modified malts of today, for me the best thing is the marking time at the end of the mash. I seem to always get to the end of the mash when my wife will ask me to do something, and it is always urgent. With the latest model which you have, at the end of mash it will wait until you are ready to proceed with the boil, the old model just ploughs straight into the boil ready or not.
You live close by to me so your boil off should be the same, no atmospheric differences, same diameter kettle, you have the insulating jacket so pretty much the same as mine. Doesn't make any difference the amount being boiled whether is 10 or 30 litres You could always check it yourself put 10 litres into the kettle and boil for 1 hour, and don't forget to make an accurate measuring stick.
I have both the forty and the fifty they both boil off at the same rate.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> They are a better model, depending on what you are looking for, recipe memory, hop addition reminder something like 9 steps which you don't really need with the modified malts of today, for me the best thing is the marking time at the end of the mash. I seem to always get to the end of the mash when my wife will ask me to do something, and it is always urgent. With the latest model which you have, at the end of mash it will wait until you are ready to proceed with the boil, the old model just ploughs straight into the boil ready or not.
> You live close by to me so your boil off should be the same, no atmospheric differences, same diameter kettle, you have the insulating jacket so pretty much the same as mine. Doesn't make any difference the amount being boiled whether is 10 or 30 litres You could always check it yourself put 10 litres into the kettle and boil for 1 hour, and don't forget to make an accurate measuring stick.
> I have both the forty and the fifty they both boil off at the same rate.



I was going to ask how can I tell that this is in fact the latest model. But yes it has the features you mention and Ive just spent the last 30 minutes programming in a recipe for my brew day tomorrow. I did up a table using an online volume calculator but I didnt take into account the area taken up by the Stainless T and helix coil so will be out a bit. Im using a steel ruler but will need to make up a measuring stick at some stage.

What power level are you using for mash, sparge and boil? Ive seen so many different numbers in this thread? Can you set step 1 for 1 minute and 2400Watts so it reaches mash temp quicker, then alarm goes off and you dough in, it runs for 1 minute then goes to step 2 which is 60 mins at say 1400-1800 watts?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the calibration of the temperature, best to check that before a brew. If you have a good thermometer put a few litres of water in set a temp of around 60-65 and place the thermometer near the probe and check they are the same reading and adjust if they aren't.
I have been dropping my mash wattage to try and eliminate the scorching I was down to 1700 last time I used the 40 litre, the boil wattage I have on 2000.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> Something that hasn't been mentioned is the calibration of the temperature, best to check that before a brew. If you have a good thermometer put a few litres of water in set a temp of around 60-65 and place the thermometer near the probe and check they are the same reading and adjust if they aren't.
> I have been dropping my mash wattage to try and eliminate the scorching I was down to 1700 last time I used the 40 litre, the boil wattage I have on 2000.



I started my maiden brew today and I forgot to calibrate but Im going to assume the previous owner had done this.

I started with 20 litres but the wort level was below the first collar so had to add 3 litres to get it above so the top filter would sit on the grain properly. 

I set my mill gap at 1mm and ended up getting a stuck mash within a few minutes. So had to lift the malt pipe, stir in some rice hulls and start again. Been going ok now, wort level has stayed level with the top filter handles for 45 mins now.

Using my old BIAB urn for my sparge water. Do you guys just pour a litre or so over the top, let it trickle through then repeat?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You will get used to it as you go along, I don't bother with the top screen the grain is as good a filter.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> You will get used to it as you go along, I don't bother with the top screen the grain is as good a filter.



Do the elements cut in and out during the boil? It seems like they are, is this normal?


----------



## Truman42

Ballaratguy said:


> Found this on Facebook. I’m surprised he hasn’t sold it yet.
> View attachment 115340



So was I when I saw it last weekend. Picked it up on Monday for $300 and used it today. Other than a stuck sparge which I fixed with rice hulls it was a successful brew.


----------



## goatchop41

Truman42 said:


> Do the elements cut in and out during the boil? It seems like they are, is this normal?



Yes. They will cut in and out more if you have it on a lower wattage - it's just the duty cycle, that's how they work when you run it at a lower wattage than the maximum. Eg. if you run it at half power then it will be on half of the time and off half of the time


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Glad it went well before long you will be tweaking and improving the way it works, I wouldnt be worrying about warranties they aŕe a reliable unit the relay which you heard switching on and off is the thermostat relay, these are seeming to be superior to the competitors relays, just look after the unit and you will be brewing on it for years.


----------



## devoutharpist

I've more or less dialled in my 50L now, been hitting my targets pretty much spot on.

So now i reckon i am gonna try and tackle a NEIPA again. The style that caused me a bunch of headaches last time i brewed one (BG - before Guten) with clogged fermenter taps, etc due to the sheer volume of hops. 

My main Guten related question is what have people been doing for whirlpool additions/hop stands etc? Looks like i'm going to have about 170g going in after the boil. 

Currently while boiling i use the hop spider, then cool using the coil and use the pump to get it into the fermenter. I imagine that doing a hop stand using the spider may not be the best utilisation of the hops and perhaps it would be better to let them roam around the kettle instead? But then i leave myself open to getting all manner of hops into the fermenter and maybe stuck on the coil. Plus then i can't use the pump to transfer and have to use the tap. 

Soooo, experiences and techniques please?


----------



## Ballaratguy

Truman42 said:


> So was I when I saw it last weekend. Picked it up on Monday for $300 and used it today. Other than a stuck sparge which I fixed with rice hulls it was a successful brew.


After I pour the grain in I just give them a really good going over with a plastic paddle in the battery drill to break up any grain balls


----------



## Truman42

Ballaratguy said:


> After I pour the grain in I just give them a really good going over with a plastic paddle in the battery drill to break up any grain balls


I use a paint stirrer on my cordless drill. That wasnt the issue though. It was trying to recirculate which caused the stuck mash.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> I've more or less dialled in my 50L now, been hitting my targets pretty much spot on.
> 
> So now i reckon i am gonna try and tackle a NEIPA again. The style that caused me a bunch of headaches last time i brewed one (BG - before Guten) with clogged fermenter taps, etc due to the sheer volume of hops.
> 
> My main Guten related question is what have people been doing for whirlpool additions/hop stands etc? Looks like i'm going to have about 170g going in after the boil.
> 
> Currently while boiling i use the hop spider, then cool using the coil and use the pump to get it into the fermenter. I imagine that doing a hop stand using the spider may not be the best utilisation of the hops and perhaps it would be better to let them roam around the kettle instead? But then i leave myself open to getting all manner of hops into the fermenter and maybe stuck on the coil. Plus then i can't use the pump to transfer and have to use the tap.
> 
> Soooo, experiences and techniques please?


If you are using Irish moss or the like there should be no problem, I am not using no chill anymore and all I do is throw in the flame out/whirlpool hops straight into the Guten, cool the wort, give a final stir and let it settle for 45 mins then gently empty. I have put a 8mm reducer into my pick up tube just so the flow is minimal, everything gets left behind. If I seem to have a litre or 2 of wort left in the kettle I pour it all into a jug, let the trub settle in that then pour off the remaining wort from the top.


----------



## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you are using Irish moss or the like there should be no problem, I am not using no chill anymore and all I do is throw in the flame out/whirlpool hops straight into the Guten, cool the wort, give a final stir and let it settle for 45 mins then gently empty. I have put a 8mm reducer into my pick up tube just so the flow is minimal, everything gets left behind. If I seem to have a litre or 2 of wort left in the kettle I pour it all into a jug, let the trub settle in that then pour off the remaining wort from the top.



Thanks, i usually chuck a whirlfloc in there so i'll give that a go and see what happens. Do you pull the coil out before you let it settle, or leave that in there as well?

Might be worth getting a reducer, off the top of your head do you know the diameter of the stock tube?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

If I am chilling I don't use the helix coil, I use a bazooka/pick up.



Nylon reducer down to 8 mm 

I have 2 different sizes for different vessels.


----------



## goatchop41

devoutharpist said:


> My main Guten related question is what have people been doing for whirlpool additions/hop stands etc? Looks like i'm going to have about 170g going in after the boil.
> 
> Currently while boiling i use the hop spider, then cool using the coil and use the pump to get it into the fermenter. I imagine that doing a hop stand using the spider may not be the best utilisation of the hops and perhaps it would be better to let them roam around the kettle instead? But then i leave myself open to getting all manner of hops into the fermenter and maybe stuck on the coil. Plus then i can't use the pump to transfer and have to use the tap.



Apparently the false bottom for the robobrew/brewzilla works quite well for this and fits the Guten. I haven't used it personally, but have read of a few people who have reported it as being very successful, and it's on my shopping list for my next order. You could also try one of the bog standard domed false bottoms


----------



## devoutharpist

goatchop41 said:


> Apparently the false bottom for the robobrew/brewzilla works quite well for this and fits the Guten. I haven't used it personally, but have read of a few people who have reported it as being very successful, and it's on my shopping list for my next order. You could also try one of the bog standard domed false bottoms



Very interesting... i wonder if this one would fit in the 50L (not sure if they're wider or not). Might have to bust out the measuring tape


----------



## nosco

wide eyed and legless said:


> Someone recently mentioned in a thread, the Guten S/Steel conical fermenter, I wasn't super impressed with the one I saw in KK shop, and because they had released the Snubby I didn't think they were going ahead with it. I have asked about it and it is still going ahead, with changes, larger dump valve, without the chiller, and able to pressure ferment to 15 psi price $199 for 30 litre capacity.


Does it look like this?

https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/fermentation/391-30l-brewdevil-ss-conical-fermenter.html


----------



## wide eyed and legless

nosco said:


> Does it look like this?
> 
> https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/fermentation/391-30l-brewdevil-ss-conical-fermenter.html


Yes that's the Guten one, there was one in KK don't know if it is still there $199, Yuri told me there are more coming in with a larger dump valve.


----------



## Cian Doyle

I have made and used a bazooka with good results, but I haven't used a reducer, I just crack open the tap very slowly and slowly drain into the fermenter.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Cian Doyle said:


> I have made and used a bazooka with good results, but I haven't used a reducer, I just crack open the tap very slowly and slowly drain into the fermenter.


I made mine, I put a reducer in because I have the Brau Meister which has a 8 mm orifice for the wort to drain, it works well even without a filter system in place.


----------



## krz

devoutharpist said:


> I...
> My main Guten related question is what have people been doing for whirlpool additions/hop stands etc? Looks like i'm going to have about 170g going in after the boil.
> 
> Currently while boiling i use the hop spider, then cool using the coil and use the pump to get it into the fermenter. I imagine that doing a hop stand using the spider may not be the best utilisation of the hops and perhaps it would be better to let them roam around the kettle instead? But then i leave myself open to getting all manner of hops into the fermenter and maybe stuck on the coil. Plus then i can't use the pump to transfer and have to use the tap.
> 
> Soooo, experiences and techniques please?



I have the 50L Guten. Like you said, I started with the Hop spider, but the last 2 brews I just chucked the hops in commando.
I whirlpool using this attached to the drill.
After cooling, I use the Guten pump *without *bazooka and pump directly into the fermenter, I use a household sieve to catch stray particle matter.
Hop debris usually for the first few minutes, then it clears up and pumps without debris.
I've had the pump get stuck once, so I just switched it off and blew into the hose back to dislodge, that clears it up.

Fermenting.
The hops tend to drop to the bottom in the fermenter when I cold crash, I have a conical.
I have never seen hop particles during drinking, the beer is very clear.


----------



## devoutharpist

krz said:


> I have the 50L Guten. Like you said, I started with the Hop spider, but the last 2 brews I just chucked the hops in commando.



Another very interesting response. I guess i could just give this a go, i had wondered how much abuse the pumps could take. What's the biggest hop addition youve done commando?

Sadly i don't have a conical so i think i'm just gonna cold crash and hope for the best (never cold crashed anything so that'll be another new thing)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> Another very interesting response. I guess i could just give this a go, i had wondered how much abuse the pumps could take. What's the biggest hop addition youve done commando?
> 
> Sadly i don't have a conical so i think i'm just gonna cold crash and hope for the best (never cold crashed anything so that'll be another new thing)


Are you running the pump during the boil? The temperature rating on these pumps is 80 C.


----------



## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> Are you running the pump during the boil? The temperature rating on these pumps is 80 C.



Never run it during the boil, but i have run it after the boil once the coil is doing it's work. I remember seeing that magical pancake fellow say that he runs his pump through the boil in an attempt to break the pump but he couldn't kill it.


----------



## krz

devoutharpist said:


> .... What's the biggest hop addition youve done commando?......



About 150g when I made the Two Hearted IPA refer to this thread.


----------



## Reg Holt

Running the pump during a boil is taking a slight risk, I took my pump apart when I bought my Guten second hand, just to make sure it was clean. It is a plastic impeller with semi open vanes so it really depends on the clearance between the vanes and the pump casing. The heat could distort the plastic running above what Kaixin recommends, then again it could be run throughout the boil if the clearance is substantial, and gotten away with.


----------



## devoutharpist

krz said:


> About 150g when I made the Two Hearted IPA refer to this thread.



I will report back my results. That recipe looks pretty good too, might have to give that a go. Had a six pack of fresh two hearted IPA last year and definitely keen to experience that again.


----------



## Truman42

krz said:


> About 150g when I made the Two Hearted IPA refer to this thread.


That ones on my to do list. Looks awesome.


----------



## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yes that's the Guten one, there was one in KK don't know if it is still there $199, Yuri told me there are more coming in with a larger dump valve.



also, is there a thread anywhere discussing these? Or does this one count


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> also, is there a thread anywhere discussing these? Or does this one count


No thread as yet, I would suggest a new thread as Guten is the name of the SVB maybe KK uni tank, I will see what I can find out about delivery and pressure kits.


----------



## devoutharpist

Now, I know this has been discussed a few times. But what is the best way to clean a "stubborn" scorch on the bottom of the kettle?

Had a difficult mash the other day due to (I assume) a large amount of oats. As a result I got a pretty big scorch on the bottom. I tried my usual cleaning routine, boiling sodium perc, soaking in vinegar, etc. But some of the mark remains. Suggestions??


----------



## Mya

Bar keepers friend to clean the stainless


----------



## goatchop41

devoutharpist said:


> Now, I know this has been discussed a few times. But what is the best way to clean a "stubborn" scorch on the bottom of the kettle?
> 
> Had a difficult mash the other day due to (I assume) a large amount of oats. As a result I got a pretty big scorch on the bottom. I tried my usual cleaning routine, boiling sodium perc, soaking in vinegar, etc. But some of the mark remains. Suggestions??



Acid.

If one product doesn't work for you, then try another that is more acidic, depending on the stubborn-ness of the scorch mark


----------



## krz

devoutharpist said:


> Now, I know this has been discussed a few times. But what is the best way to clean a "stubborn" scorch on the bottom of the kettle?
> 
> Had a difficult mash the other day due to (I assume) a large amount of oats. As a result I got a pretty big scorch on the bottom. I tried my usual cleaning routine, boiling sodium perc, soaking in vinegar, etc. But some of the mark remains. Suggestions??


Im surprised vinegar didnt work, as mya said, barkeepers will work. It clerans up the blacknees on my cooking pans easily.


----------



## devoutharpist

I'll say that i was very surprised as well, usually it works fine but this was some serious char.

I'll try and grab some barkeepers then, thanks all.


----------



## mischa6262

devoutharpist said:


> I'll say that i was very surprised as well, usually it works fine but this was some serious char.
> 
> I'll try and grab some barkeepers then, thanks all.



i have heard that a normal dishwasher tablet put in a pot with a small amount of water ( i would assume cover it with water) and bring it to the boil is said to remove burns from pots, but cant confirm it as I've never burnt a pot before


----------



## JDB

Hey guys, looks like the Guten’s on sale. Anyone know if there’s a new version coming out, or if I should jump at this? 50l seems like a bargain, would get me out of partial mashes on the stove top, which would have to improve the marital situation


----------



## wide eyed and legless

JDB said:


> Hey guys, looks like the Guten’s on sale. Anyone know if there’s a new version coming out, or if I should jump at this? 50l seems like a bargain, would get me out of partial mashes on the stove top, which would have to improve the marital situation


How much is it? If it is on sale grab it.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

40L $399
50L $499

It's quite tempting but the 50L might be cutting it fine for double batches?


----------



## Reg Holt

Ripper price! Ordered the 50 litre this morning, will still keep my 40 litre for small batches.


----------



## JDB

Ordered. Now to read this entire thread again before it turns up


----------



## sp0rk

Well I've done something I thought I'd never do
I bought a Guten 50L while they're on sale
I love tinkering and building my own gear, but with a newborn and trying to find space for my powerlifting setup in the garage, I needed a smaller brewing footprint and something less time consuming


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I would say that at the sale prices quite a few will be joining the Guten band wagon.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

They might get more than 379 members in the Facebook group!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> They might get more than 379 members in the Facebook group!


When you take into account all the AKA's Ace, Brew Monk, Brew Devil, Hop Cat, Brewster Beacon, Klarstein etc and over 180,000 sold world wide (that was the figure a year ago) I wouldn't be counting on Face Book for an accurate gauge of popularity.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Haha I knew you would bite


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Well you have to look at things in perspective, isn't Face Books for the ill at ease and the 'fringe dwellers'


----------



## Nullnvoid

There could be people in that 379 that don't even own Gutens...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Nullnvoid said:


> There could be people in that 379 that don't even own Gutens...


Exactly, Face Book wouldn't be a full measure of users, anyone in business looking for a reliable SVB to retail would be looking at sales achieved, though I don't agree with Foshun Shunde Kitchen Equipment wholesale etiquette, where they sell under different names leaving the retailers to fight a price war among themselves while they still get the same wholesale price asked. Very smart.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Was given this one to trial, more or less same as the Guten but with one added advantage the whirlpool came from the tap, also smaller volume. I believe magical pancake moved his pump to the outside of the vessel and applied the same thing. Probably where Zhangshan Agape Electrical Appliance got the idea from. Another way is to purchase an extra pump (cheap enough) and do the same thing with the Guten.


----------



## malt and barley blues

I am an early Guten user and never been on face book, probably more Guten owners not on facebook than none owners. Best place to learn about Guten is AHB and the pancake guy's videos. How much for the pump WEAL?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

malt and barley blues said:


> How much for the pump WEAL?


I can't remember, they are only a cheap Kaixin pump, $20 or so. I scavenged a lot from KK rubbish skip some years ago could have come from one of the ill fated Robobrew 2.


----------



## ThirstyFish

$499 for the 50L is very tempting. Might pull the trigger I think.

Wonder if KL will follow re the 65L Brewzilla?


----------



## Reg Holt

I got my 50 litre delivered today, happy that I don't have to make a new measuring stick just extend my calibrations. My neighbour has the Brewzilla 65 litre, he reckons he got a lemon, cuts out during the mash, though its all right on the boil. Looking forward to some brewing wars with him.


----------



## KegLand-com-au

ThirstyFish said:


> $499 for the 50L is very tempting. Might pull the trigger I think.
> 
> Wonder if KL will follow re the 65L Brewzilla?



KegLand will not be reducing the price of the 65L BrewZilla any time soon. The 65L BrewZilla is quite expensive to build. The low watt tensity elements cost more, the thicker stainless has increased the cost, the upgrades to the electronics, insulation, switches, additional handle, false bottom, stainless lid clamps so you can use different still designs etc. Given the quality of the BrewZilla 65L unit the price is justified. The margins are already really tight on these units and they represent great value which is probably why the BrewZilla units sell more in Australia and America than the Guten units.


----------



## sp0rk

KegLand-com-au said:


> KegLand will not be reducing the price of the 65L BrewZilla any time soon. The 65L BrewZilla is quite expensive to build. The low watt tensity elements cost more, the thicker stainless has increased the cost, the upgrades to the electronics, insulation, switches, additional handle, false bottom, stainless lid clamps so you can use different still designs etc. Given the quality of the BrewZilla 65L unit the price is justified. The margins are already really tight on these units and they represent great value which is probably why the BrewZilla units sell more in Australia and America than the Guten units.


Do you have accurate sales figures for both?
Going into a thread dedicated to a competitors product and linking to yours is a pretty shitty spiteful act, but it doesn't surprise me that you've done it


----------



## ThirstyFish

sp0rk said:


> Do you have accurate sales figures for both?
> Going into a thread dedicated to a competitors product and linking to yours is a pretty shitty spiteful act, but it doesn't surprise me that you've done it



To be fair, I specifically mentioned KL and their product and they came into the thread to answer the question I posed. The links were a bit cheeky, but hardly a "shitty, spiteful act"....


----------



## sp0rk

I could completely understand them replying without links, that seems fair
But this is not at all the first time they've pulled this sort of thing


----------



## KegLand-com-au

sp0rk said:


> I could completely understand them replying without links, that seems fair
> But this is not at all the first time they've pulled this sort of thing





ThirstyFish said:


> To be fair, I specifically mentioned KL and their product and they came into the thread to answer the question I posed. The links were a bit cheeky, but hardly a "shitty, spiteful act"....






sp0rk said:


> Do you have accurate sales figures for both?
> Going into a thread dedicated to a competitors product and linking to yours is a pretty shitty spiteful act, but it doesn't surprise me that you've done it




Yes we do have very good figures for both and it's something we monitor regularly.

To say that you are not surprised that we have done it and it's a "shitty spiteful" thing without you knowing what data we have would be equally "shitty spiteful". So it's a strange position to take sp0rk. It might be viewed as hypocritical to say the least.


----------



## sp0rk

KegLand-com-au said:


> Yes we do have very good figures for both and it's something we monitor regularly.
> 
> To say that you are not surprised that we have done it and it's a "shitty spiteful" thing without you knowing what data we have would be equally "shitty spiteful". So it's a strange position to take sp0rk. It might be viewed as hypocritical to say the least.


Please reread my comment, I refer to it being spiteful in relation to posting links to your product in a thread about a competitor's product
Not in relation to whether or not you have sales figures


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I would like to know why the low watt density elements are more expensive, not as if they are exposed elements like the BM's.


----------



## sp0rk

When I was designing heating elements, we didn't charge significantly more for lower watt density elements, just the extra material costs for longer elements, the labor for the extra bending etc is negligible
And the incoloy that's commonly used isn't that expensive


----------



## KegLand-com-au

sp0rk said:


> When I was designing heating elements, we didn't charge significantly more for lower watt density elements, just the extra material costs for longer elements, the labor for the extra bending etc is negligible
> And the incoloy that's commonly used isn't that expensive



So this conversation has more relevance the cost of the low watt density elements alone is about a 5% increase in cost for us (this includes a small amount of R&D and tooling cost amortised into this figure). You might say that is negligible but if you add up all the other costs such as thicker stainless, extra handle, improved electronics, insulation, false bottom, stainless lid clamps these all stack up.

What was in question was "will KL drop the price of the BrewZilla 65L" you have to understand that it's not the same brewery and we have higher build costs and elements is only one of these cots. With the sale price that you guys are talking about we have a 30% difference between the BrewZilla and Guten. Out of that 30% we have 5% of that difference can be attributed to the elements alone. Once you add the additional features I am pretty sure you will find that each small upgrade will easily be absorbed in this relatively small 30% difference in price which is why the BrewZilla still represents excellent value.


----------



## KegLand-com-au

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would like to know why the low watt density elements are more expensive, not as if they are exposed elements like the BM's.



It's quite simple. They require more material. In our particular instance we had to make a new element design to fit our particular boilers too so we had some tooling cost here too. Larger elements that take up more surface area in the base of the boiler cost more money.

One of the major reasons why the BrewZilla took so long to bring out is because we did a lot of experiments with lower watt densities elements and we did try exposed elements just like the BM. Here are some photos from our Jun 2018 testing:












As you can see we also started off with the mirror stainless finish but it didn't look as good so we went with brushed in the end.





We made quite a few different design changes and tested quite a few different shapes and designs before eventually making our low watt casting for the BrewZilla 65L.

In the end the expose elements were just so much more complicated to clean the marginal benefits of this lower watt density were not realised. As a result we felt the best possible result could be achieved by making a larger casting specifically suited to the BrewZilla units that we have now.

I should also note that we have also decreased the watt density on the BrewZilla 35L too. So all BrewZilla units are sold with lower watt density than our competitors (other than BM who use exposed elements).


----------



## KegLand-com-au

Reg Holt said:


> I got my 50 litre delivered today, happy that I don't have to make a new measuring stick just extend my calibrations. My neighbour has the Brewzilla 65 litre, he reckons he got a lemon, cuts out during the mash, though its all right on the boil. Looking forward to some brewing wars with him.



I am not personally aware of this and the return rate on BrewZilla units is extremely low. The reliability of the BrewZilla units is one of the main reasons why we have increased the warranty to 3 years. I believe this is longer than our competitors. If you have a neighbour with a 65L and if he seems to have any issues he should contact us for an immediate fix. The BrewZilla units all are still under warranty.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Be interesting to compare the new 70 litre Guten to the 65 litre Brewzilla, seems Guten has gone with the lock in bottom screen and sight glass as well as the larger capacity. Matched with a very extremely low return rate. Warranty lengths are a none issue due to the new consumer protection laws where the warranty length is deemed by judicial powers related to cost of the appliance.


----------



## KegLand-com-au

wide eyed and legless said:


> Be interesting to compare the new 70 litre Guten to the 65 litre Brewzilla, seems Guten has gone with the lock in bottom screen and sight glass as well as the larger capacity. Matched with a very extremely low return rate. Warranty lengths are a none issue due to the new consumer protection laws where the warranty length is deemed by judicial powers related to cost of the appliance.



It would seem you often speak on behalf of KK. So can you please confirm that Robobrew units sold up to 3 years ago by KK are still covered under KK warranty? We have heard of a number of customers who have not been so lucky. So on behalf of these customers what are their rights under the new consumer protection laws?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

KegLand-com-au said:


> It would seem you often speak on behalf of KK. So can you please confirm that Robobrew units sold up to 3 years ago by KK are still covered under KK warranty? We have heard of a number of customers who have not been so lucky. So on behalf of these customers what are their rights under the new consumer protection laws?


Well I think most people know that the Robobrew put out by you when you were Keg King were a load of shite, that includes the initial release of the Robobrew 3 by Keg Land where you had to replace circuit boards and screens. I am not a spokes person for KK, as you well know they don't have a voice on this forum, which by the way another forum which you were refused entry as a sponsor relates to AHB as the Keg Land Forum. I just keep my ear to the ground to see what is new, and whats pending, there had to be a reason for the sale, I am sure punters would like the choice of a 40, 50 and 70 litre SVB.
I do so love competition, the punters are the winners, and that's not all, we have the Fermzilla versus the new Fermentasaurus, be prepared to be out thought on that front too.


----------



## KegLand-com-au

wide eyed and legless said:


> Well I think most people know that the Robobrew put out by you when you were Keg King were a load of shite, that includes the initial release of the Robobrew 3 by Keg Land where you had to replace circuit boards and screens. I am not a spokes person for KK, as you well know they don't have a voice on this forum, which by the way another forum which you were refused entry as a sponsor relates to AHB as the Keg Land Forum. I just keep my ear to the ground to see what is new, and whats pending, there had to be a reason for the sale, I am sure punters would like the choice of a 40, 50 and 70 litre SVB.
> I do so love competition, the punters are the winners, and that's not all, we have the Fermzilla versus the new Fermentasaurus, be prepared to be out thought on that front too.



You seem to be avoiding the question about warranty. Do customers have warranty for 3 years?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

KegLand-com-au said:


> You seem to be avoiding the question about warranty. Do customers have warranty for 3 years?


As I pointed out in a previous post it is not up to the seller to deem the warranty, it is a judicial matter aligning it to the cost of the appliance. Dear me are you not keeping up with the consumer protection act?


----------



## Reg Holt

KegLand-com-au said:


> I am not personally aware of this and the return rate on BrewZilla units is extremely low. The reliability of the BrewZilla units is one of the main reasons why we have increased the warranty to 3 years. I believe this is longer than our competitors. If you have a neighbour with a 65L and if he seems to have any issues he should contact us for an immediate fix. The BrewZilla units all are still under warranty.


Apparently he did get in touch either by email or phone but was told that the return of the Brewzilla was at his expense, we will be taking a look at the unit this weekend, i.e taking out the circuit board for some close scrutiny, I really don't want to have a brewing war with a crippled Brewzilla.


----------



## ThirstyFish

wide eyed and legless said:


> As I pointed out in a previous post it is not up to the seller to deem the warranty, it is a judicial matter aligning it to the cost of the appliance. Dear me are you not keeping up with the consumer protection act?



Weal - there are numerous comments by you in this thread about how good the Guten 2 year warranty is and that Guten's 2 year warranty was implemented due to the quality of the product. 

Australian Consumer Law does provide protections to consumers for faulty products but it is intentionally vague about what a reasonable amount of time is and to my knowledge makes no specific reference to dollar amounts and time periods (other than guides that cite examples like it would be reasonable that a $1,800 TV last longer than 6 months). Happy to be corrected on that - I'm no lawyer. 

Either way, going through ACCC (or the State/Territory equivalent) would be a massive pain in the arse and would take many months, if not years to get resolved. Dealing directly with retailer, whether it be the 2 years offered by KK or 3 by KL, would be a much quicker and much more satisfying experience for all concerned! I'd say they both deserve credit for these warranties.


----------



## Ferment8

It's good to know that according to WEAL you get more than 3 years warranty on a sub $500 product. I assume we can take this to consumer affairs and it's a done deal?


----------



## fdsaasdf

KegLand-com-au said:


> It's quite simple. They require more material. In our particular instance we had to make a new element design to fit our particular boilers too so we had some tooling cost here too. Larger elements that take up more surface area in the base of the boiler cost more money.
> 
> 
> 
> We made quite a few different design changes and tested quite a few different shapes and designs before eventually making our low watt casting for the BrewZilla 65L.
> 
> In the end the expose elements were just so much more complicated to clean the marginal benefits of this lower watt density were not realised. As a result we felt the best possible result could be achieved by making a larger casting specifically suited to the BrewZilla units that we have now.
> 
> I should also note that we have also decreased the watt density on the BrewZilla 35L too. So all BrewZilla units are sold with lower watt density than our competitors (other than BM who use exposed elements).


 Personally I'm glad that you decided against the exposed elements for the Robo 65 as there is no way I would have purchased it. I am grateful for the easier cleaning and reduced risk of damage that comes with the concealed elements.

IMO the Guten is probably priced closer what it is worth now; if it was 60+L then it might be worth a look for $500+.


FWIW, Kegland's Q&A is about the only reason I visit this forum these days, not because I "support" KL (I prefer to use local retailers, if they stock what I'm after) but because I'm not aware of any other manufacturers/retailers who are so engaged with their customer base for product development. 

I like the opportunity to find out what's in the pipeline and maybe influence things under development to be a bit better suited to my needs. What KL offers here is unique, however it seems this is also the epicentre of the childish nonsense that seems to be this forum's signature in recent times.

With the continually declining quality and diversity of content on this site, there's not a lot else here for me.


----------



## sp0rk

Ferment8 said:


> It's good to know that according to WEAL you get more than 3 years warranty on a sub $500 product. I assume we can take this to consumer affairs and it's a done deal?


The latest email from KK says they give a 3 year warranty...
(their site & facebook says 2 years)


----------



## Ferment8

sp0rk said:


> The latest email from KK says they give a 3 year warranty...
> (their site & facebook says 2 years)
> View attachment 115838


That's a great deal! And good it's advertised as such cause i don't think you would get it otherwise as weal was saying. 
But very good deal. Might pull the trigger myself


----------



## wide eyed and legless

*What are consumer guarantees?*
Consumer guarantees are a set of rules that apply to goods and services purchased by consumers under the ACL.

These rules set out the circumstances under which a business is required to provide a consumer with a remedy.

The consumer guarantees automatically apply regardless of any voluntary or extended warranty given by a seller or manufacturer of goods and services, or if such a warranty has expired.


----------



## ThirstyFish

wide eyed and legless said:


> *What are consumer guarantees?*
> Consumer guarantees are a set of rules that apply to goods and services purchased by consumers under the ACL.
> 
> These rules set out the circumstances under which a business is required to provide a consumer with a remedy.
> 
> The consumer guarantees automatically apply regardless of any voluntary or extended warranty given by a seller or manufacturer of goods and services, or if such a warranty has expired.


I can copy and paste too, but where does it say anything about the consumer guarantee for a $500 or $650 product and it applying for any specific time period?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ThirstyFish said:


> I can copy and paste too, but where does it say anything about the consumer guarantee for a $500 or $650 product and it applying for any specific time period?


`Check out the site it gives examples.


----------



## ThirstyFish

wide eyed and legless said:


> `Check out the site it gives examples.


I’m familiar w the site. I’ve been contracting to ACCC for best part of 15 years.

1. None of the examples refer to a time period greater than 12 months.
2. The examples don’t mean anything in court or law. 
3. All the ACL says is in this regard is that if it goes to court, the judge must take into account the value and age of the product in making a ruling.

Who in there right mind would go to court over a $500-650 product that can almost always be fixed for less than $50?


----------



## Nullnvoid

sp0rk said:


> The latest email from KK says they give a 3 year warranty...
> (their site & facebook says 2 years)
> View attachment 115838



Their instragram post also says 2 year...


----------



## Kenf

Another thread, which has been taken over by the old KL vs KK!
I don’t comment on here much anymore because like someone else said it all gets a bit childish!
Now I use a Smartpid modified Grainfather (with Robobrew bits) & I like the Guten whirlpool attachment and I think it has a higher wattage! I also know what their innards look like because there is a modified Klarstein on the Smartpid website!
Some of the design points of the Robobrew are impressive ( I don’t really like the pump underneath idea on either model), but they are really a much the same. I guess that’s what happens when they all come from the same place!
Now depending on whether I can fix the boil issue on the Grainfather, I might be in the market for a new boiler ( might just make a 3 v system using the Grainfather as a mash tun). Or I might just buy one of these! My point is this constant slagging match over two very similar products is boring and a turn off!
All I want to know is how they work and the good and bad points of each from a user prospective.
Cheers


----------



## goatchop41

Reg Holt said:


> Apparently he did get in touch either by email or phone but was told that the return of the Brewzilla was at his expense



This is both correct and incorrect. The consumer has to foot the bill initially, but can recover the costs once the product is deemed faulty.
As per the ACCC website::"You are entitled to return a product if you believe that there is a problem. You are generally responsible for returning the product if it can be posted or easily returned. You are entitled to recover reasonable postage or transportation costs from the business if the product is confirmed to have a problem, so keep your receipts."


----------



## JDB

On a more Guten related front. Got my 50l on Thursday, came with a 15A plug, so I went and got one of those a 15a to 10a adaptors. Long story short it kept tripping out even at below 2000w, so I’ve got a sparky mate coming round tomorrow to install at dedicated 15a circuit.


----------



## Kenf

Ah that’s more like it! Useful information, I also read on one of the overseas sites that you don’t use the pump after the boil! But there’s may have a different pump.
Cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Kenf said:


> Ah that’s more like it! Useful information, I also read on one of the overseas sites that you don’t use the pump after the boil! But there’s may have a different pump.
> Cheers


They all have the same pump and they are rated to 80oC but some people do run them after the boil is over and immersion chiller is in.


----------



## Kenf

Thanks WEAL, after much research and soul searching - I’ve decided to build my own system out of a boiler.
I already have the Grainfather and already have pumps (I picked up a new Kegking 25 watt 120oC yesterday from my LHBS dearer than the web but it supports the local bloke). The major problem is the Grainfather is not coming to boil (I been through all the steps re elevation changing settings etc). I have a Smartpid so I can automate the process & I have all the Grainfather malt pipes etc. so it would be crazy to buy a new all in one system when really all I need is a boiler!
So I’m going to build my own! But thanks for the info
Cheers


----------



## sp0rk

I've had a bit of a google but can't find anything
Has anyone out there built a custom controller for the Guten?
I'd guess when the new version comes out there will probably be bluetooth control from a mobile app or whatever
But I have plenty of arduinos and other bits and pieces, I'm very tempted to give it a go


----------



## Kenf

Look up Smartpid -Klarstein (which is Guten in England and Europe), it comes with the special mounting plate and everything. Once you have that it will integrate with Brewfather.
http://smartpid.com/


----------



## wide eyed and legless

sp0rk said:


> I've had a bit of a google but can't find anything
> Has anyone out there built a custom controller for the Guten?
> I'd guess when the new version comes out there will probably be bluetooth control from a mobile app or whatever
> But I have plenty of arduinos and other bits and pieces, I'm very tempted to give it a go


Check out Magical pancakes videos, hes has done a lot of modifications.


----------



## krz

JDB said:


> On a more Guten related front. Got my 50l on Thursday, came with a 15A plug, so I went and got one of those a 15a to 10a adaptors. Long story short it kept tripping out even at below 2000w, so I’ve got a sparky mate coming round tomorrow to install at dedicated 15a circuit.



Those 15 to 10A adaptors are causing the trip. The oven is likely to be on a 25A circuit, so easiest way is to check if the oven is hardwired or via a a 15A gpu such as this, if hardwired install the gpo and buy a 15A extension lead and you will be 3000W happier


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Kenf said:


> all I need is a boiler


I know this is the Guten thread, but have you looked at the Digiboil? Quite cheap and sounds like what you are after.


----------



## JDB

krz said:


> Those 15 to 10A adaptors are causing the trip. The oven is likely to be on a 25A circuit, so easiest way is to check if the oven is hardwired or via a a 15A gpu such as this, if hardwired install the gpo and buy a 15A extension lead and you will be 3000W happier


15A outlet installed at my brewing station for material costs and a few beers = full power boiling and no extension cords required. 
The adaptor was tripping, not the main circuit board, returned to the hardware store for a full refund, so I'm happy enough with the outcome.


----------



## KegLand-com-au

Reg Holt said:


> Apparently he did get in touch either by email or phone but was told that the return of the Brewzilla was at his expense, we will be taking a look at the unit this weekend, i.e taking out the circuit board for some close scrutiny, I really don't want to have a brewing war with a crippled Brewzilla.



That seems strange. The only reason the customer would be charged for return postage is if the unit was not deemed to be a manufacturing fault or of they picked the item up from us. If you pick up the item from our premises then you need to return it to us for warranty. If you order online and get it shipped then the return shipping is covered under warranty.


----------



## sp0rk

If I had $260 to blow on a new controller I'd buy Smart PID's solution, but I'm guessing there will be an upgraded controller in a few months that we can add
http://smartpid.com/store/#!/SmartP...one-retrofit-KIT/p/95169469/category=32120508


----------



## Kenf

Fro-Daddy said:


> I know this is the Guten thread, but have you looked at the Digiboil? Quite cheap and sounds like what you are after.


Yep that’s exactly what I have ordered! The Grainfather gear will fit, I have a 25 watt pump etc. I have also order a 2200 watt heater element and I will fit that to the Grainfather so I will have a boiler as well.
Cheers


----------



## Kenf

sp0rk said:


> If I had $260 to blow on a new controller I'd buy Smart PID's solution, but I'm guessing there will be an upgraded controller in a few months that we can add
> http://smartpid.com/store/#!/SmartP...one-retrofit-KIT/p/95169469/category=32120508


They are a great solution! I will be running the aforementioned boiler using the Smartpid


----------



## KegLand-com-au

malt and barley blues said:


> I did put a post up from another (unmentionable) forum about one of your fridges some time ago, you didn't want to pay the return more or less told him it was his problem and it was only 6 months old. Come on Keg Land stand by your products.



We can't make this any clearer. It's our company policy to pay for any return postage and postage back to the customer for any product that is deemed to be faulty. So that is for all products that we sell we will always cover the return postage cost for a product that is faulty and we have shipped out to a customer. This has always been the case and will always be the case. So please give us a call with your order number.


----------



## malt and barley blues

KegLand-com-au said:


> We can't make this any clearer. It's our company policy to pay for any return postage and postage back to the customer for any product that is deemed to be faulty. So that is for all products that we sell we will always cover the return postage cost for a product that is faulty and we have shipped out to a customer. This has always been the case and will always be the case. So please give us a call with your order number.


As I said it is not my problem. Check out cerveja's post on the other forum March 14, is it your reputation that is being damaged.

Mine is from KL. Worked well first 6 months then same issues as above. Won't get to temp, takes ages and ages to get even near temp (upwards of a week) and has to be defrosted every 2-3 weeks ATM. This is after a tap failed (room covered in a keg of beer) that they insinuated was my fault (pigs arse) and a temp controller that keeps failing. PITA to deal with and won't ever accept their product is shite. Currently in a situation that if I want it fixed I have to pack it up (damage is my risk), send it back (they graciously pay for this), wait for them to 'test' it and when (given past efforts) they determine there is nothing wrong I have to pay to get it back. FFS. They won't use local repairers I guess because of the risk the locals will say "mate, this is a pile of shit". I'm going to put up with it as long as possible while I organise a keezer build. DO NOT PURCHASE FROM THESE GUYS IT'S NOT WORTH IT. That includes lines etc etc. You WILL regret it. Rant over.
Oh, how I DO like to talk.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

That post says that that KL will pay the return postage...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Can we please keep to the purpose of this thread, discussing Guten equipment, we don't want to slip into anarchy as in the Keg Land thread.


----------



## krz

KegLand-com-au said:


> We can't make this any clearer.



NOT RELEVANT THIS THREAD, go to KL thread, actually I agree with previous comments, pretty piss poor even commenting here. (customer of both stores btw)


----------



## 2095brewer

Kegland,
I am a customer of yours, but please if you want to defend your reputation or anything else, please do it in another thread. Other users: If you have complaints about a kegland product then please post it in another thread. This forum is being hijacked.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

If someone calls a company (any company) out in this thread, they should be able to respond in this thread.
Why read two threads for the same conversation?


----------



## goatchop41

krz said:


> NOT RELEVANT THIS THREAD, go to KL thread, actually I agree with previous comments, pretty piss poor even commenting here. (customer of both stores btw)



Users are posting questions and complaints to them in this thread. Not really that piss poor to reply to them. Yeah, we don't want this thread getting derailed with this stuff, but maybe have a go at the people putting the complaints and replies to them in this thread too, or just chill out


----------



## JDB

Anyone got a good pump inlet filter solution? Does the KK one work well enough? Would like to be able to use the whirlpool arm with hop pellets, without resorting to the hop spider.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You could do what I did (post 1477) got an extra pump and whirlpool through the tap outlet or just use the outlet inside the Guten and whirlpool while cooling but use a paddle for the final whirlpool before transfer so the trub ends up in the centre away from the tap.
You shouldn't get a blockage from hop pellet matter or are you using whole hops?


----------



## JDB

wide eyed and legless said:


> You could do what I did (post 1477) got an extra pump and whirlpool through the tap outlet or just use the outlet inside the Guten and whirlpool while cooling but use a paddle for the final whirlpool before transfer so the trub ends up in the centre away from the tap.
> You shouldn't get a blockage from hop pellet matter or are you using whole hops?



I haven't got a blockage yet, but I haven't tried the whirlpool either. Was just reading about a lot of people getting blockages or making filters, thought I'd be proactive and get something in place before i got a problem


----------



## wide eyed and legless

JDB said:


> I haven't got a blockage yet, but I haven't tried the whirlpool either. Was just reading about a lot of people getting blockages or making filters, thought I'd be proactive and get something in place before i got a problem


Keg King do sell a filter to go over the intake, problem is if you fit the filter, which you would have to prior to starting the mash any grain or husks which escape from the grain basket end up staying in the kettle, then you have to fish them out. Without the filter pieces of grain or husks recirculate through the system and then gets dumped back on the grain bed.


----------



## krz

goatchop41 said:


> Users are posting questions and complaints to them in this thread. Not really that piss poor to reply to them. Yeah, we don't want this thread getting derailed with this stuff, but maybe have a go at the people putting the complaints and replies to them in this thread too, or just chill out



Fair point goat, but have recently heard (yesterday) that Keg King are not allowed to post anything on this site, nor even allowed to sponsor. Moderators, please confirm. 

Keg Land however, can do what they please, even hijack this thread.
I'm not biased, I shop at both sites, I love the competition that the KL vs KK has produced, especially the lower prices.
But if this website is one sided, that's not fair.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It is true Keg King are not allowed to post as they have been refused sponsorship, when the old Keg King crew went over to Keg Land they managed to take the sponsorship with them.


----------



## devoutharpist

JDB said:


> I haven't got a blockage yet, but I haven't tried the whirlpool either. Was just reading about a lot of people getting blockages or making filters, thought I'd be proactive and get something in place before i got a problem



The grainfather has a nice looking filter, have been wondering if i could retrofit that onto my Guten. 150g whirlpool hops is a killer trying to keep stuff from going into the fermenter.


----------



## Truman42

Does anyone know what size elements are in the 40L and 50 L Guten. I know they are 2500w and 3000w but what size is each individual element?


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

devoutharpist said:


> The grainfather has a nice looking filter, have been wondering if i could retrofit that onto my Guten. 150g whirlpool hops is a killer trying to keep stuff from going into the fermenter.


 I've looked into this as my mates have grainfathers. The black hose that fits the gf is a different diameter to the inlet hole for the pump on the guten. I think this filter works in the gf because the thing sits above any break or hops. Even then my mates had v had issues with it blocking.

I've tried the brewzilla bottom screen in my guten, took a bit of slow grinding to make it fit, but the hops and cold break still got through, mainly around the edge. I'm going to split some silicone hose and use that as a seal around the edge. There is plenty of good feedback about the hop stopper. But they're a bit expensive. 

I'm not out of ideas yet with filtering in the guten and using the pump just need to keep trying.


----------



## Kenf

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> I've looked into this as my mates have grainfathers. The black hose that fits the gf is a different diameter to the inlet hole for the pump on the guten. I think this filter works in the gf because the thing sits above any break or hops. Even then my mates had v had issues with it blocking.
> 
> I've tried the brewzilla bottom screen in my guten, took a bit of slow grinding to make it fit, but the hops and cold break still got through, mainly around the edge. I'm going to split some silicone hose and use that as a seal around the edge. There is plenty of good feedback about the hop stopper. But they're a bit expensive.
> 
> I'm not out of ideas yet with filtering in the guten and using the pump just need to keep trying.


Look wider on the Internet and you will find that the good looking filter on the GF has heaps of problems. That’s why people (including myself) have been experimenting with Brewzilla false bottoms.


----------



## Kenf

wide eyed and legless said:


> You could do what I did (post 1477) got an extra pump and whirlpool through the tap outlet or just use the outlet inside the Guten and whirlpool while cooling but use a paddle for the final whirlpool before transfer so the trub ends up in the centre away from the tap.
> You shouldn't get a blockage from hop pellet matter or are you using whole hops?


I have been experimenting with this on my GF and a unit that I built with off the shelf parts. Obviously the supplied pumps are too small and can’t be modified so yes a second pump is needed.
The experiments continue!


----------



## Kenf

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is true Keg King are not allowed to post as they have been refused sponsorship, when the old Keg King crew went over to Keg Land they managed to take the sponsorship with them.


So in short - one major wholesaler in this country can have people slag off about there products and they have the right to respond. The other one can’t? I seem to recall a certain furore about a YouTube reviewer being accused of cash for comments about a certain review. By the way the reason the Guten was not reviewed was it’s not available in Norway apparently - anyhow I digress!
Moderators if some people on here are working for a major wholesaler - shouldn’t there be some sought of declaration?
Just a thought!


----------



## goatchop41

Kenf said:


> That’s why people (including myself) have been experimenting with Brewzilla false bottoms.



I was considering buying one of these for my Guten, but then realised that it is a smaller diameter than the Guten - by a decent bit too. I was concerned that everything would just flow around it, like @FarsideOfCrazy said happened to them.

Do you both think that some silicone tubing around the edges will be thick enough to stop that flow around? I would also be concerned about the tubing coming off


----------



## FreeBSD

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is true Keg King are not allowed to post as they have been refused sponsorship, when the old Keg King crew went over to Keg Land they managed to take the sponsorship with them.



Interesting to hear that. So where are the Beerensteins, goatchops etc etc on this subject. Sounds pretty unfair if that is the case. I often wondered why there is no KK session on this site.


----------



## FreeBSD

Kenf said:


> So in short - one major wholesaler in this country can have people slag off about there products and they have the right to respond. The other one can’t? I seem to recall a certain furore about a YouTube reviewer being accused of cash for comments about a certain review. By the way the reason the Guten was not reviewed was it’s not available in Norway apparently - anyhow I digress!
> Moderators if some people on here are working for a major wholesaler - shouldn’t there be some sought of declaration?
> Just a thought!



Something rotten in the state of Denmark, Norway and Victoria …..


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Beat me to it Kenf, a second pump is beneficial for whirlpooling, the pump intake on the Guten is away from the side so the trub is going to go down the intake. Still not an ideal solution using the second pump but could be part way there. I have thought of ordering in some more helix but instead of a tight wind leave a minuscule gap between the coils. The other idea is a perforated strip around the outer edge making a 45 degree concave shape, as Kenf says experiments continue.



Kenf said:


> So in short - one major wholesaler in this country can have people slag off about there products and they have the right to respond. The other one can’t? I seem to recall a certain furore about a YouTube reviewer being accused of cash for comments about a certain review. By the way the reason the Guten was not reviewed was it’s not available in Norway apparently - anyhow I digress!
> Moderators if some people on here are working for a major wholesaler - shouldn’t there be some sought of declaration?
> Just a thought!


He ( David Heath) did make comments about one of the brand names which Guten, Hopcat, Brew Devil, and the numerous other names it goes in throughout Europe.
For me the right of response is important, I was in a neutral corner until KL started slagging off KK a company they had worked for and KK having no right of response. I don't think it would be that good to have two major wholesalers sniping at each other.
See dibbz post 21 the findings of a court case was handed down on Friday, now that will be interesting to see, unfortunately it takes 2 weeks to publicize the results. I am willing to bet dibbz was on the money.



goatchop41 said:


> I was considering buying one of these for my Guten, but then realised that it is a smaller diameter than the Guten - by a decent bit too. I was concerned that everything would just flow around it, like @FarsideOfCrazy said happened to them.
> 
> Do you both think that some silicone tubing around the edges will be thick enough to stop that flow around? I would also be concerned about the tubing coming off


Clarke Rubber have a plastic 'U' strip which will fit snugly around the edge of the false bottom, just means taking a bit more metal off the edge.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

goatchop41 said:


> I was considering buying one of these for my Guten, but then realised that it is a smaller diameter than the Guten - by a decent bit too. I was concerned that everything would just flow around it, like @FarsideOfCrazy said happened to them.
> 
> Do you both think that some silicone tubing around the edges will be thick enough to stop that flow around? I would also be concerned about the tubing coming off


I bought the one for the 65 litre brewzilla then trimmed it to fit snug. The smaller one would do nothing.


----------



## krz

Dont know if this is old or new news, but it was new to me.
Keg King now sell a new false bottom for the Guten.
Its much stiffer and the edges arent sharp anymore, so need for a plastic/silicone strip.
View media item 10939


----------



## Kenf

I think you are right on all counts WEAL. I currently looking at the latest Nano stuff on the CPB site and in all honesty if I had waited a few weeks the answers to all my problems are right there!
I have basically turned the GF into a monster now & I have refitted a helix to one outlet and believe it or not the Guten filter to the other slightly higher outlet! The other one based on a boiler unit (from you know who), has its false bottom and two outlets/ inlets. One below the false bottom and one above (also fitted with a CPB whirlpool device).
The false bottom did work in the GF - but with the two tri-clamp bulkhead fittings and the retrofitted 2400 watt heater unit, it all got a bit crowded! And I noticed some strange temperature readings so I think I may have been over filtering or creating hot spots!
I’m not really sure if there is a perfect solution to the filtration problem in all honesty! I’m still experimenting though!
As for the other stuff, I’m a bit tired of it all! I will go and read what dibbz said and maybe check out the court decision when it’s released ( I tend to look up court decisions as part of my job), but other than that, I’m really don’t care other than as a matter of fairness!
Cheers mate


----------



## Kenf

krz said:


> Dont know if this is old or new news, but it was new to me.
> Keg King now sell a new false bottom for the Guten.
> Its much stiffer and the edges arent sharp anymore, so need for a plastic/silicone strip.
> View media item 10939


Can you buy it as a spare though?


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> .....
> See dibbz post 21 the findings of a court case was handed down on Friday, now that will be interesting to see, unfortunately it takes 2 weeks to publicize the results. I am willing to bet dibbz was on the money.
> ...


Interesting!,


----------



## krz

Kenf said:


> Can you buy it as a spare though?


I bought it as a spare on Saturday. $20 something from memory


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

That false bottom is for the malt pipe. I've not had a problem with the malt pipe false bottom.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

FreeBSD said:


> Interesting to hear that. So where are the Beerensteins, goatchops etc etc on this subject. Sounds pretty unfair if that is the case. I often wondered why there is no KK session on this site.



I’ll openly say I work at KL - no dramas there. Do I or anyone that actually works at KL care to weigh in? Nope. I personally don’t like posting here for how political and off topic it’s become, though. Gone are the days of being able to post without being questioned/accused/ridiculed.

I can say with 100% certainty that of our office staff of a mere 5 people, only I and Kee (as KegLand itself) post on this forum these days. The usual people accused who happen to support KegLand are just supporters at most. 
To be honest, It’s a much more pleasant experience on the Facebook forums where there isn’t the shroud of secrecy that allows for the conspiracy. People are nicer when they bear their real names.

I will say though, it’s funny knowing both sides of the whole debate and reading conjecture. Especially when it’s from people who obviously have some internal knowledge of the affair but just enough incorrect facts to know they don’t know it all or only one spirited half. 

Long live awesome deals and innovation (whoever be the supplier)!


----------



## Kenf

Thanks for your response mate! I think you raised some good points.
I’m not going to say anymore (as this is the Guten thread) other than I like your products!
Being able to buy bits and pieces of the Brewzilla has allowed me to try new ideas at a price point that is not crippling.
Again thx & cheers


----------



## FreeBSD

nathanvonbeerenstein said:


> I’ll openly say I work at KL - no dramas there. Do I or anyone that actually works at KL care to weigh in? Nope. I personally don’t like posting here for how political and off topic it’s become, though. Gone are the days of being able to post without being questioned/accused/ridiculed.
> 
> I can say with 100% certainty that of our office staff of a mere 5 people, only I and Kee (as KegLand itself) post on this forum these days. The usual people accused who happen to support KegLand are just supporters at most.
> To be honest, It’s a much more pleasant experience on the Facebook forums where there isn’t the shroud of secrecy that allows for the conspiracy. People are nicer when they bear their real names.
> 
> I will say though, it’s funny knowing both sides of the whole debate and reading conjecture. Especially when it’s from people who obviously have some internal knowledge of the affair but just enough incorrect facts to know they don’t know it all or only one spirited half.
> 
> Long live awesome deals and innovation (whoever be the supplier)!


This all sounds really murky to me. How biased is all this then? If one supplier is allowed in but the other one is not how does that benefit the HB community? Would it not be better if both sides could present? One has to wonder about all the biased you tube videos against the Guten product for example and more. How many shills are involved?


----------



## Truman42

Does anyone know what sort of probe the Guten has? Is it a one wire DS18B20?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

nathanvonbeerenstein said:


> People are nicer when they bear their real names.


P Sherman 42 Wallaby Way Sydney


----------



## devoutharpist

holy hell i can't believe how knotted peoples' knickers are still over the KK/KL thing. Just embrace the good deals and all the new products coming from both shops. 

Now back to the issue of a filter on the Guten... Maybe buying the robobrew falsie, cutting it down and putting some edging on it is the way to go. Maybe time to suss KK and see if they have anything in the works.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Why not buy a cheap BIAB net and use it like a giant hop spider?


----------



## devoutharpist

Fro-Daddy said:


> Why not buy a cheap BIAB net and use it like a giant hop spider?



That is definitely an option. I wonder what the drop in utilisation is for whirlpooling in a bag. I think i read about a 10% drop for using a bag or a hop spider over freeballing them into the kettle, but no idea where i saw that....


----------



## Fro-Daddy

In a small bag I could believe it, but when it's something that can hold 5+kg I don't think it would be too much of a drop if anything?
They will be able to move quite freely I think.
It's certainly a lot cheaper and easier to try than modifying a false bottom.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

FreeBSD said:


> This all sounds really murky to me. How biased is all this then? If one supplier is allowed in but the other one is not how does that benefit the HB community? Would it not be better if both sides could present? One has to wonder about all the biased you tube videos against the Guten product for example and more. How many shills are involved?



There will always be people like you are avid for scandal. What if... people just genuinely liked the Robobrew?... people compare them since they’re so similar and surprise surprise, some even have a preference! Not everything needs to be considered through the lens of a tin foil hat. Leave it alone, enjoy the innovation it’s generating and focus more on your hobby.

Back on topic and the reason I even saw my name pop up in a Guten forum... I have a Guten from my pre-Kegland days. I ended up retrofitting a false bottom and making hop screens since (as is common knowledge) they can’t handle hops in the nude well. Helix coils were finicky at best and often left stuff caked underneath, leaving a noticeable scorch mark. They worked well warm though.

If anyone wants to buy it on that note, drop me a direct message. I’ll throw in these hop screens/spiders/helix coils etc etc with it. Works fine and still in warranty, I just have upsized since.


----------



## Kenf

Well the court case last week is listed on Austlii,really it’s only house keeping and legal side stepping. Does it look bad? You be the judge!
If you do read it (MCH vs Australia vs Kee Doery & Orr’s)
You will notice posts off this site are quoted in evidence.
So there is a bit of a warning!
Just remember this was only about what should be in and what shouldn’t!
The main game is yet to occur!
No further comment from Me!


----------



## goatchop41

FreeBSD said:


> This all sounds really murky to me. How biased is all this then? If one supplier is allowed in but the other one is not how does that benefit the HB community? Would it not be better if both sides could present? One has to wonder about all the biased you tube videos against the Guten product for example and more. How many shills are involved?



Mate, get out of the thread if all you're going to post about is this shit. The thread is about the Guten, and you're clogging it up with your tinfoil hat shit. Take it somewhere else and stop wasting our time please


----------



## goatchop41

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> I bought the one for the 65 litre brewzilla then trimmed it to fit snug. The smaller one would do nothing.



Bugger, if the 35L is too small and the 65L is too big, then that won't work for me. I have absolutely no means with which to trim down the bigger one, and wouldn't know the first thing about it either. I was hoping that I could just add something to the smaller one to make it wide enough


----------



## Ferment8

goatchop41 said:


> Bugger, if the 35L is too small and the 65L is too big, then that won't work for me. I have absolutely no means with which to trim down the bigger one, and wouldn't know the first thing about it either. I was hoping that I could just add something to the smaller one to make it wide enough


about $25 will get you a pair of tin snips. Wiss brand are good. If your right handed get the green ones, if left handed get the red ones. just trim the edge as you turn it around. Little bit at a time

EDIT: Actually I havent done this but thinking as its probably a stainless screen it may not work too well. The wiss edge snips might do it though. They are a much tougher cutting edge


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Kenf said:


> Well the court case last week is listed on Austlii,really it’s only house keeping and legal side stepping. Does it look bad? You be the judge!
> If you do read it (MCH vs Australia vs Kee Doery & Orr’s)
> You will notice posts off this site are quoted in evidence.
> So there is a bit of a warning!
> Just remember this was only about what should be in and what shouldn’t!
> The main game is yet to occur!
> No further comment from Me!


I wouldn't like to be in Kee Doery's shoes. Nuff said.


----------



## Kenf

nuff said


----------



## sp0rk

As much as I'd like to pitch in on the drama, I'll drag this back on track (hopefully for good)
Who is using Brewfather and has a Guten profile? (preferably for the 50L)
I'm about to finally do some reviews as requested elsewhere along with my mkI lowered pickup fitting for the helix coil (mkII is ready to be built pending the results)
I plan on trying the same brew twice, one with just a normal sparge, then with a sparge ring for recirculating over the lifted malt pipe (after sparging) to test whether this improves clarity. the theory is the grain bed will act as a filter like it would in a normal mash tun
I'll be using some rice hulls to help avoiding slow flow. (any suggestions on how much for a 20L batch?)
Another question is has anyone done any huge beers in a 50L Guten?
I'm planning on doing a RIS and a BW (both around 10-12% ABV) and I'm not quite sure what preboil volume I should be looking for


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I see where your coming from with the sparge, but I would have my doubts if the clarity would change much at all, if at all. Your already recirculating during the mash, hopefully all the little bits in the liquor would be getting dumped on top of the grain bed, when ever I have taken the pre boil gravity the wort is very clear.
Is the RIS the 20 litre batch? Do you already know your boil of rate?


----------



## Nullnvoid

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is true Keg King are not allowed to post as they have been refused sponsorship, when the old Keg King crew went over to Keg Land they managed to take the sponsorship with them.



I think I would rather have this confirmed by the one moderator there is or AHB Admin themselves rather than you as a biased third party.


----------



## Truman42

Truman42 said:


> Does anyone know what sort of probe the Guten has? Is it a one wire DS18B20?




Anyone?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Nullnvoid said:


> I think I would rather have this confirmed by the one moderator there is or AHB Admin themselves rather than you as a biased third party.


Then just do as I did,shoot Angie a line she will tell you.


----------



## devoutharpist

sp0rk said:


> Another question is has anyone done any huge beers in a 50L Guten?
> I'm planning on doing a RIS and a BW (both around 10-12% ABV) and I'm not quite sure what preboil volume I should be looking for



I've done a BW where i was shooting for something in the realm of 10-11% but i came in a bit under, which i expected to happen given the high gravity. I'll confirm with my beersmith file tonight and get back to you. 

As a side note, brewed that thing at the end of the year still needs a lot more time to mellow out, even under 10%ABV


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Truman42 said:


> Anyone?


Give Keg King a call they may be able to tell you.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Bullshit?


----------



## awfulknauful

Kenf said:


> Well the court case last week is listed on Austlii,really it’s only house keeping and legal side stepping. Does it look bad? You be the judge!
> If you do read it (MCH vs Australia vs Kee Doery & Orr’s)
> You will notice posts off this site are quoted in evidence.
> So there is a bit of a warning!
> Just remember this was only about what should be in and what shouldn’t!
> The main game is yet to occur!
> No further comment from Me!


Wow!


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> Give Keg King a call they may be able to tell you.


I did, they think that they are NTC probes but werent 100% sure.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Truman42 said:


> I did, they think that they are NTC probes but werent 100% sure.


What are your intentions?
Another option is to send an email to Sandy at Guten you will definitely get an answer.


----------



## goatchop41

sp0rk said:


> I plan on trying the same brew twice, one with just a normal sparge, then with a sparge ring for recirculating over the lifted malt pipe (after sparging) to test whether this improves clarity. the theory is the grain bed will act as a filter like it would in a normal mash tun
> I'll be using some rice hulls to help avoiding slow flow. (any suggestions on how much for a 20L batch?)



Recirculating after lifting the malt pipe shouldn't change anything at all. If you were getting proper recirculation during the mash, then the filtering through the bed will already be done. All that you'll be doing is extending the recirculation in an unnecessary and complicated fashion.

Regarding the rice hulls - I personally don't use them. I condition the malt before milling it with 2% of the grain weight in water, and that helps form a greatly bulked up grain bed that not only gets great flow through (pump open on full blast last two batches), but also nets me 80-82% efficiency


----------



## Kenf

Goat chop when you say proper recirculating you mean it’s all going through the grain bed and little to none through the overflow?


----------



## devoutharpist

sp0rk said:


> Another question is has anyone done any huge beers in a 50L Guten?
> I'm planning on doing a RIS and a BW (both around 10-12% ABV) and I'm not quite sure what preboil volume I should be looking for



Right so looking at beersmith i did 10kg grain, mashed with 28L of water and sparged with 10L. Was aiming for 1.078 but hit 1.068 instead with 30L before the boil. 90 minute boil down to 21L and 1.081 (aiming for 1.102... so a big miss here ha).

Fermented out to around 9.5%ABV so as i said, not as big as i would have hoped. I used a couple handful of rice hulls but cant really comment if they helped or not. I did read about soaking your rice hulls before adding, so i might try that next high-adjunct mash (i'm looking at you, flaked oats...).


----------



## TheBeerBaron

Kenf said:


> Well the court case last week is listed on Austlii,really it’s only house keeping and legal side stepping. Does it look bad? You be the judge!
> If you do read it (MCH vs Australia vs Kee Doery & Orr’s)
> You will notice posts off this site are quoted in evidence.
> So there is a bit of a warning!
> Just remember this was only about what should be in and what shouldn’t!
> The main game is yet to occur!
> No further comment from Me!



Link?


----------



## Kenf

TheBeerBaron said:


> Link?


https://austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/view...ro/VICSROSD+au/other/rulings/vicsro/VICSROTAA
Or just go to the Austlii web site select Victoria & type MCH
Just remember that it is really two groups of people versions of events and some rulings on some housekeeping matters. I.e what should be in and what should be out. These things always look bad!
Not sure when the actual case is listed


----------



## FreeBSD

goatchop41 said:


> Mate, get out of the thread if all you're going to post about is this shit. The thread is about the Guten, and you're clogging it up with your tinfoil hat shit. Take it somewhere else and stop wasting our time please


Spoken like a true shill


----------



## FreeBSD

Nullnvoid said:


> I think I would rather have this confirmed by the one moderator there is or AHB Admin themselves rather than you as a biased third party.


Agreed


----------



## sp0rk

Seriously, can we piss off this crap to a dedicated thread somewhere else?
Just get over it, it's old
Also, it looks like the temp sensor is a 100k NTC


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> What are your intentions?
> Another option is to send an email to Sandy at Guten you will definitely get an answer.


To set up craftbeerpi. I hoped they might be Onewire probes but they aren't. Ive found out they are NTC. So look's like I cant use the existing probes.


----------



## sp0rk

goatchop41 said:


> Recirculating after lifting the malt pipe shouldn't change anything at all. If you were getting proper recirculation during the mash, then the filtering through the bed will already be done. All that you'll be doing is extending the recirculation in an unnecessary and complicated fashion.





wide eyed and legless said:


> I see where your coming from with the sparge, but I would have my doubts if the clarity would change much at all, if at all. Your already recirculating during the mash, hopefully all the little bits in the liquor would be getting dumped on top of the grain bed, when ever I have taken the pre boil gravity the wort is very clear.
> Is the RIS the 20 litre batch? Do you already know your boil of rate?


That's cool, but after asking on a few facebook groups for Gutens/Klarsteins/etc no one had tried this but most said it wouldn't do anything
That's why I want to do it, to prove whether it does anything or not, because no one else has tried
At worst I've wasted $5 on a camlock fitting and 30 minutes making a sparge ring and associated bits from stuff I have laying around
I'll be brewing probably my house saison, I go through kegs of it like crazy because visitors love it so all is good

And yes the RIS and BW will be 20L, haven't dialled in my boiloff rate yet


----------



## TheBeerBaron

Kenf said:


> Or just go to the Austlii web site select Victoria & type MCH
> Just remember that it is really two groups of people versions of events and some rulings on some housekeeping matters. I.e what should be in and what should be out. These things always look bad!
> Not sure when the actual case is listed



Price lists and email addresses.. I am sure the lawyers will love arguing over it and taking money from both sides but I highly doubt it will be the end of KL


----------



## krz

FreeBSD said:


> This all sounds really murky to me. How biased is all this then? If one supplier is allowed in but the other one is not how does that benefit the HB community? Would it not be better if both sides could present? One has to wonder about all the biased you tube videos against the Guten product for example and more. How many shills are involved?


Agree with you FreeBSD, as nice as his post is, there is no right of reply. Moderators still very silent. btw ~$7 million damages


----------



## krz

sp0rk said:


> Seriously, can we piss off this crap to a dedicated thread somewhere else?
> Just get over it, it's old
> Also, it looks like the temp sensor is a 100k NTC


Agree, will start a new thread KK vs KL its https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/kk-vs-kl-kegking-vs-kegland-legal-case.100769/


----------



## wide eyed and legless

sp0rk said:


> That's cool, but after asking on a few facebook groups for Gutens/Klarsteins/etc no one had tried this but most said it wouldn't do anything
> That's why I want to do it, to prove whether it does anything or not, because no one else has tried
> At worst I've wasted $5 on a camlock fitting and 30 minutes making a sparge ring and associated bits from stuff I have laying around
> I'll be brewing probably my house saison, I go through kegs of it like crazy because visitors love it so all is good
> 
> And yes the RIS and BW will be 20L, haven't dialled in my boiloff rate yet


If you don't have a go you will never know. My boil off is 5 litres / hour.


----------



## Mya

sp0rk said:


> I'll be brewing probably my house saison, I go through kegs of it like crazy because visitors love it so all is good



Have a link to your recipe?


----------



## Cian Doyle

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Please oh pretty please, does this mean you'll fuc k off with your constant bullshit. This forum would new better off without you.


I hardly think thats fair, in this thread alone which WEAL started and has contributed a wealth of information. If it wasn't for those following his lead in purchasing the Guten from China and contributing to a successful thread, it may not have come to the notice of KK and making the Guten easier to purchase for Australian home brewers.


----------



## sp0rk

Mya said:


> Have a link to your recipe?


https://aussiehomebrewer.com/thread...ts-your-best-recipe.93317/page-2#post-1420967
The hopping has changed a bit since then, still predominantly Perle and EKG but the cube hop is usually something like Bramling Cross now, which I find works great in a Saison
I've been using Coopers Pale Malt as the base malt lately and I find that I'm liking it more than I did with JW or BB Pale malts
Hibiscus is optional, I find either in cube or at flameout works well
For visitors I ferment it with Wyeast French Saison, if it's just for myself I use a blend made from Wyeast French Saison and a few different bottle dregs (Wildflower and La Sirene mostly)


----------



## goatchop41

Kenf said:


> Goat chop when you say proper recirculating you mean it’s all going through the grain bed and little to none through the overflow?



Eventually, yes. I go by the Grainfather videos that I've seen, where they are happy to let it flow through the overflow initially, and will eventually all flow through the grain bed.
I'm happy to go by the GF guide, as their user guide is quite comprehensive, unlike the little to none that came with the guten when I got it (pre-KK stocking it)


----------



## devoutharpist

While we are requesting recipes, can we get WEAL's ESB recipe? (i assume the beer i have seen in multiple pics now is an ESB or something close)


----------



## goatchop41

FreeBSD said:


> Spoken like a true shill



You haven't made one useful contribution to this thread. Could you kindly piss off to the KK vs KL thread with this shit? Or alternatively, actually contribute to this thread when you comment on it


----------



## goatchop41

So I did a smaller batch on the guten a couple of weeks ago - I am aiming for a 10L batch, with which to fill my two 5L mini kegs.
I did a full volume mash for the first time (as it was a small batch) and my efficiency dropped from my usual ~80% to ~70%. Do I remember reading correctly that others who do full volume mashes with their Guten have seen similar efficiency drops?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The drop is about what you stated, I dialed in to brewers friend 70% efficiency I now have it at 60% and add more water. 70% dial in does work but not every time, maybe try 65%.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> The drop is about what you stated, I dialed in to brewers friend 70% efficiency I now have it at 60% and add more water. 70% dial in does work but not every time, maybe try 65%.



Cheers.
I did only do a 30 min boil, so next time that I do a smaller batch with full volume mash I might even bring it back up to 60 min and see if the increased water volume changes anything


----------



## Kenf

goatchop41 said:


> Eventually, yes. I go by the Grainfather videos that I've seen, where they are happy to let it flow through the overflow initially, and will eventually all flow through the grain bed.
> I'm happy to go by the GF guide, as their user guide is quite comprehensive, unlike the little to none that came with the guten when I got it (pre-KK stocking it)


Thx - I’m starting to focus more on yield so I have started to throttle back the flow rate
Cheers


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Some bloke on FB just got his 62L Hopcat.
I like the sight glass, not sure on the flexi arm yet regarding cleaning.
Price looks to be a shocker though...
https://www.hopcat.eu/product-page/hopcat-mega-65


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have the flexible arm on the Brau Wolf, not really a game changing idea, doesn't bother me either way, maybe useful for some one forever taking the lid off during the mash cycle.
Piece of dowel does me for liquor measuring, but I am glad Guten took note of the lock in bottom screen which is on the Brau Wolfe. 
Also if we are getting a 70 litre, why bother making a 65 litre, seems a bit pointless having a discrepancy of 5 litres?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

We are getting a 70 litre a sample came in with the new Guten S/Steel fermenters.


----------



## malt and barley blues

Called in to get some Atomic 15 and saw this. Not much bigger than the 50 L and a slightly bigger diameter and it is 70 L. Got the sight glass as well


----------



## Kenf

wide eyed and legless said:


> We are getting a 70 litre a sample came in with the new Guten S/Steel fermenters.


Yeah I’m thinking is I want to go to 70 litre - I might go the CP 3v system with their new SS vessels with the 2 inch Tri clover and the new 300 micron baskets.
But yeah seams funny having a 65 & a 70!
I like how they have mounted the controller!
Are the new fermenters in? Yippee!!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

malt and barley blues said:


> Called in to get some Atomic 15 and saw this. Not much bigger than the 50 L and a slightly bigger diameter and it is 70 L. Got the sight glass as well
> View attachment 116270


Price?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> While we are requesting recipes, can we get WEAL's ESB recipe? (i assume the beer i have seen in multiple pics now is an ESB or something close)


Got my recipe from BYO magazine, which is now locked unless you are a subscriber. 
Here is the one from American Home Brewers.
*Fuller’s ESB Clone | Extra Special/Strong Bitter*
*INGREDIENTS*

For 5 gallons (19 L)

9.0 lb. (4.1 kg) English pale malt
1.0 lb. (454 kg) crystal 70° L
0.5 lb. (225 g) crystal 26° L
1.0 oz. (28 g) Target pellet hops, 6.7% a.a. (60 min.)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Challenger pellet hops, 8.2% a.a. (15 min.)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Northdown pellet hops, 7.6% a.a. (8 min.)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Goldings whole hops (dry)
White Labs WLP002 English Ale Yeast
*SPECIFICATIONS*

Original Gravity: 1.054
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU: 32
SRM: 13
Boil Time: 90 minutes
*DIRECTIONS*
Mash grains at 155°F (68°C) for 60 minutes. Ferment at 65°F (18°C) and condition for 30 days.

*Malt Extract Recipe:*
Substitute 8.0 lb. (3.6 kg) of pale malt extract syrup for the English pale malt.

Pretty much the same as mine but I add .08% chocolate, I try and keep my bitters between 4 and 5%
I prefer the Bass Pale Ale and my own best bitter, but always trying new recipes.


----------



## krz

Kenf said:


> Yeah I’m thinking is I want to go to 70 litre - I might go the CP 3v system with their new SS vessels with the 2 inch Tri clover and the new 300 micron baskets.
> But yeah seams funny having a 65 & a 70!
> I like how they have mounted the controller!
> Are the new fermenters in? Yippee!!



Why are ppl wanting the 70 litre?
I do, because I have a half barrel fermenter @ 66L, and want to do 3 cornys at a time, rather than 2 with the 50L Guten. Am I missing something?


----------



## Kenf

krz said:


> Why are ppl wanting the 70 litre?
> I do, because I have a half barrel fermenter @ 66L, and want to do 3 cornys at a time, rather than 2 with the 50L Guten. Am I missing something?


Sorry mate you miss understood- I thought just doing a 70 instead of the 65 was a better idea. But like I said I don’t care, I’m going to build my own


----------



## Fro-Daddy

wide eyed and legless said:


> We are getting a 70 litre a sample


Who is 'we'?

What is the real full volume of the 70L? I noticed the '65L' was only 62L to the top.
Same with my Robo V2, advertised as 35L but only 31-32L to the brim.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> Who is 'we'?
> 
> What is the real full volume of the 70L? I noticed the '65L' was only 62L to the top.
> Same with my Robo V2, advertised as 35L but only 31-32L to the brim.


We, us here in Australia. I haven't seen it wouldn't know the full volume, they will probably have the info on facebook before long.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Called in to KK today to see if the grain for the BB had arrived, never sighted the Brewziller Killer, so couldn't check out the increments.


----------



## dibbz

I see KK updated their pricing and joined the race to the bottom  

After trying the robobrew falsey, I'm going to go the gentle angle grinder technique on a brewzilla false bottom, the lid will work as a template, I think then the whirlpool arm will work.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Hi @Keg King. I'm wondering if you guys are working on some sort of filter for the guten vessels that we can use the internal pump to filter out hops and cold break?


----------



## krz

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Hi @Keg King. I'm wondering if you guys are working on some sort of filter for the guten vessels that we can use the internal pump to filter out hops and cold break?


I'm not Keg King (really I'm not). But this is what I have been doing.


I originally used the hop spider that came with the Guten. I used it 3 brews, had it overflow twice, I now no longer use it.
Now, I just dump the hops straight in without *any *filter anywhere in the Guten. 
After the wort has cooled to 45C or so, I get out the battery powered drill and using a grainfather whirlpool "thingamejig (random google search)", I whirlpool for a minute.
Then I let it rest for 20min.
Now, I hook up silicone hose to Guten recirc outlet, and I turn the pump on, I discard the first 500ml.
I hold a kitchen sieve betweer the recirc outlet and the fermenter. After about 30 to 60 seconds, there are no more hop debris until I near the end of the batch. 
As soon as I see the next hop stuff coming thru I turn off the valve. 
There is usually about a litre to a litre and a half loss.

No issues with pump. I dont reckon a filter is required.


----------



## fdsaasdf

T


krz said:


> After the wort has cooled to 45C or so, I get out the battery powered drill and using a grainfather whirlpool "thingamejig (random google search)", I whirlpool for a minute.


I'd be concerned about using that paddle to aerate hot wort, due to the risk of introducing hot side aeration. 

I'm sure it works well if you want to splash the wort about to oxygenate it, but my understanding is that you want to wait until you're near pitching temp before doing this if you want to avoid the greater likelihood that your beer will stale.


----------



## Ballaratguy

I just use a lauter helix to filter when I’m transferring using a second pump on the tap
Comes up quite clear


----------



## goatchop41

fdsaasdf said:


> T
> 
> I'd be concerned about using that paddle to aerate hot wort, due to the risk of introducing hot side aeration.
> 
> I'm sure it works well if you want to splash the wort about to oxygenate it, but my understanding is that you want to wait until you're near pitching temp before doing this if you want to avoid the greater likelihood that your beer will stale.



They are using it at 45oC. Even if you think that HSA is a real problem (it may not be at our scale), it's not going to be happening at 45oC - that's almost pitching temps for some kveik strains...you'll just be whirlpooling and oxygenating at that point


----------



## goatchop41

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Hi @Keg King. I'm wondering if you guys are working on some sort of filter for the guten vessels that we can use the internal pump to filter out hops and cold break?



There is one that exists, just not sure if KK stock it. Actually have a go at a basic google search and you'll find it (typing 'guten filter' and going to images will show it to you). The only links that I can find quickly were to the KK wholesale site though. A more thorough search on your behalf might come up with something more


----------



## devoutharpist

Firstly, i am also very interested in an improved filter for the Guten.

Secondly, how many people are running their 50L on a 10a powerpoint?


----------



## sp0rk

devoutharpist said:


> Firstly, i am also very interested in an improved filter for the Guten.
> 
> Secondly, how many people are running their 50L on a 10a powerpoint?


Technically yes... (it's on a 20A phase)


----------



## devoutharpist

sp0rk said:


> Technically yes... (it's on a 20A phase)



Ah yes sorry i should have framed that more theoretically. 

Theoretically i am using mine on a 10a currently, but am considering getting a 15a point moved to my brewing area when i get some other electrical work done.


----------



## Truman42

goatchop41 said:


> So I did a smaller batch on the guten a couple of weeks ago - I am aiming for a 10L batch, with which to fill my two 5L mini kegs.
> I did a full volume mash for the first time (as it was a small batch) and my efficiency dropped from my usual ~80% to ~70%. Do I remember reading correctly that others who do full volume mashes with their Guten have seen similar efficiency drops?


Hey mate how are you getting 80%, I have only ever got around 70%. Can you share the following please.

1.Whats your mill gap setting?
2. Do you do a slow fly sparge?
3.Do you use rice hulls at all?


----------



## sp0rk

devoutharpist said:


> Ah yes sorry i should have framed that more theoretically.
> 
> Theoretically i am using mine on a 10a currently, but am considering getting a 15a point moved to my brewing area when i get some other electrical work done.


what amp is the breaker for that phase?


----------



## goatchop41

Truman42 said:


> Hey mate how are you getting 80%, I have only ever got around 70%. Can you share the following please.
> 
> 1.Whats your mill gap setting?
> 2. Do you do a slow fly sparge?
> 3.Do you use rice hulls at all?



1. Couldn't tell you the exact width, all that I know is that it is about two to two and half notches past halfway on the little width setting knobs on my mill - I'll have a look at my mill and try to give you some more info when I get the chance.

2. Nope, I batch sparge. I push down on the top plate a bit to compact the grain bed a little, then literally just pour sparge water over it until I'm at about the top of the little handles on the top plate. I let that drain through (only takes a couple of minutes, at the most) then repeat until I'm done. I'm actually planning on just pouring half of my sparge water over at once, letting that drain, then doing the other half - simply to save time and effort on my behalf.

3. Nope, I condition my malt. This has given me much better grain bed structure, allowing better flow through the bed, as well as letting me crush a bit more finely without making the bed go dense from the flour and block up.
Before I started doing it, I was crushing at the same mill setting but was getting very limited flow through the bed during recirculation, and my efficiency was at about 70%. Conditioning has allowed me to run the recirc at pretty much full speed, is getting me clearer wort and has bumped my efficiency up to about 80%.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> There is one that exists, just not sure if KK stock it. Actually have a go at a basic google search and you'll find it (typing 'guten filter' and going to images will show it to you). The only links that I can find quickly were to the KK wholesale site though. A more thorough search on your behalf might come up with something more



I am going to try a different method of filtering but here is a photo of the filter available.


----------



## hotmelt

I got sick of grain going past the bottom screen so I made my own filter.






It works to stop grain getting in the pump but now I've screwed the top screen onto the bottom screen with a split silicon hose around the edge.No grain getting past now only the finer stuff.


----------



## devoutharpist

sp0rk said:


> what amp is the breaker for that phase?



pretty sure that circuit has a 16a breaker


----------



## Truman42

goatchop41 said:


> 1. Couldn't tell you the exact width, all that I know is that it is about two to two and half notches past halfway on the little width setting knobs on my mill - I'll have a look at my mill and try to give you some more info when I get the chance.
> 
> 2. Nope, I batch sparge. I push down on the top plate a bit to compact the grain bed a little, then literally just pour sparge water over it until I'm at about the top of the little handles on the top plate. I let that drain through (only takes a couple of minutes, at the most) then repeat until I'm done. I'm actually planning on just pouring half of my sparge water over at once, letting that drain, then doing the other half - simply to save time and effort on my behalf.
> 
> 3. Nope, I condition my malt. This has given me much better grain bed structure, allowing better flow through the bed, as well as letting me crush a bit more finely without making the bed go dense from the flour and block up.
> Before I started doing it, I was crushing at the same mill setting but was getting very limited flow through the bed during recirculation, and my efficiency was at about 70%. Conditioning has allowed me to run the recirc at pretty much full speed, is getting me clearer wort and has bumped my efficiency up to about 80%.


 Awesome thanks for that. I don’t use the top plate and have noticed my sparge water flows through too quickly so will try pushing down on the grain bed with the top plate in future.
Will also be trying to condition my malt and see how I go. I have to throttle my pump. Thanks for the info.


----------



## krz

devoutharpist said:


> Firstly, i am also very interested in an improved filter for the Guten.
> 
> Secondly, how many people are running their 50L on a 10a powerpoint?


You probably could, but I dont.
I hook into the oven power outlet (GPO), which is rated far higher than 15A.
Just use a 15A extension lead.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Don't write off the Helix, I have tried a different configuration for cold transfers using the helix, tried it once on a stout but not sure if any break material got into the fermenter will try it again on my next brew.


----------



## Kenf

I have gone back to the Helix on my Frankenfather & on the last batch (Australian Pale Ale) chilled it down using the counter flow and everything went ok.
So I agree - don’t write off the helix!


----------



## 2095brewer

I want to be a helix believer, but in my last 8/9 brews I haven’t had a successful fermenter transfer. I generally cool until pretty close to pitching temps, but even when I’ve just had it into the 30s (to try and avoid the cold break) I can’t get it to work. Shame, because it really the only major repetitive issue I’m having with the Guten.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

2095brewer said:


> I want to be a helix believer, but in my last 8/9 brews I haven’t had a successful fermenter transfer. I generally cool until pretty close to pitching temps, but even when I’ve just had it into the 30s (to try and avoid the cold break) I can’t get it to work. Shame, because it really the only major repetitive issue I’m having with the Guten.


Not the fault of the Guten, just the helix and break material, as I said in your other post lets try other options before any towels get thrown.


----------



## dibbz

RIP lauter helix, it never worked as well as i''d like, it was just easier to hack at when it was blocked.


----------



## Kenf

dibbz said:


> RIP lauter helix, it never worked as well as i''d like, it was just easier to hack at when it was blocked.
> 
> View attachment 116370


That is so sad
I’m going to give mine more chances!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I was wrong in thinking that it was the slimy break material which was the culprit but I was wrong. I did a brew yesterday with a different configuration using the helix managed to keep everything out of my fermenter including the break material. Turns out the culprit is plain old viscosity, three ways to fix high viscosity, 1) Heat up the wort, which is defeating the purpose, 2) A bigger surface area of the filter.
3) Reduce the flow rate.
Next brew I will increase helix length, being careful not to trespass above the elements and put a 8 mm
reducer in the outlet.


----------



## Kenf

And here I was thinking higher flow rate!
Thanks mate


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Kenf said:


> And here I was thinking higher flow rate!
> Thanks mate


I had more control yesterday, I coiled the helix about 1/4 of the circumference and then up to the top, the malt pipe just fits. The thought being, the clear wort near the top would flush out any break material inside the helix, ran OK for about 4 litres then the helix would gradually fill and discharge. Would have been a slow process but I just gave a gentle pull to open up the coils to let it empty.
Worked alright and never got anything in the fermenter, just need a solution where I can turn the tap on and walk away to do other chores.


----------



## goatchop41

dibbz said:


> RIP lauter helix, it never worked as well as i''d like, it was just easier to hack at when it was blocked.



Let us know how the false bottom goes mate. I might have to buy one and find someone in my homebrew club who can cut it down for me


----------



## Andr3w

dibbz said:


> RIP lauter helix, it never worked as well as i''d like, it was just easier to hack at when it was blocked.
> 
> View attachment 116370


I just cut it to size so it fills the circumference of the Guten. If it blocks I put my stirring paddle between the coil and the Guten wall and gently turn the paddle to open it up the coil just enough to allow flow again. Do that in a couple more spots if needed. Some material will get through, but it settles out in primary anyway.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Andr3w said:


> I just cut it to size so it fills the circumference of the Guten. If it blocks I put my stirring paddle between the coil and the Guten wall and gently turn the paddle to open it up the coil just enough to allow flow again. Do that in a couple more spots if needed. Some material will get through, but it settles out in primary anyway.


I have done the same thing, but there will be an easier way, would like to see how dibbz's false bottom goes and if it can keep the hop debris and break material out of the fermenter. I will be trying the triple helix next brew with reducer.


----------



## Kenf

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have done the same thing, but there will be an easier way, would like to see how dibbz's false bottom goes and if it can keep the hop debris and break material out of the fermenter. I will be trying the triple helix next brew with reducer.


I did the same thing & last time had to do the same. Yesterday I fitted two cut down bazooka screens to the T piece instead, so today I’m trialing it. So far so good


----------



## dibbz

I was thinking about break, probably want the little metal filter thing KK have for the pump input, rip off the mesh and put a bit of silicone tube on to get some clearance off the bottom.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Got my set up ready for the next brew, 2 and a bit helix, the vertical is the get out of jail in case it doesn't work.


----------



## Abird89

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got my set up ready for the next brew, 2 and a bit helix, the vertical is the get out of jail in case it doesn't work.
> View attachment 116378


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got my set up ready for the next brew, 2 and a bit helix, the vertical is the get out of jail in case it doesn't work.
> View attachment 116378



So can you explain the logic with this setup WEAL? Are you thinking that the one Helix gets covered up with trub too easily?


----------



## Kenf

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got my set up ready for the next brew, 2 and a bit helix, the vertical is the get out of jail in case it doesn't work.
> View attachment 116378


All I can say is - WOW!!!!!!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Truman42 said:


> So can you explain the logic with this setup WEAL? Are you thinking that the one Helix gets covered up with trub too easily?


It isn't the trub that is the problem, its the viscosity of the wort, so the filter needs a bigger surface area, I also put a fibre washer behind the tap to reduce the flow. The vertical is only there just in case it doesn't work, I can pull on that to empty the kettle (opening up the coils slightly). If you still have your off cut try it in the kettle with cold water, it only dribbles through, then try it with cold water on the full length and it flows real easy.


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> It isn't the trub that is the problem, its the viscosity of the wort, so the filter needs a bigger surface area, I also put a fibre washer behind the tap to reduce the flow. The vertical is only there just in case it doesn't work, I can pull on that to empty the kettle (opening up the coils slightly). If you still have your off cut try it in the kettle with cold water, it only dribbles through, then try it with cold water on the full length and it flows real easy.


I find that at EOB my wort is clear with suspended particles clumped together. But as soon as I start the pump to whirlpool the clumps all break up and my wort goes cloudy. If Im using the helix the pump slows down and stops (Im using an external Marsh pump). But if i dont whirlpool cooling takes ages. I tried it without the helix and it flowed better but still had cloudy wort and removing the immersion chiller seems to stir up the trub again anyway.

When I used a plate chiller I just stirred with a spoon 5 mins after EOB and let it sit for 10 mins. Crystal clear with a nice trub cone. Still trying to decide if I should go back to either a plate chiller or a CFC as the immersion chiller isnt as good as I thought it would be.


----------



## Truman42

dibbz said:


> RIP lauter helix, it never worked as well as i''d like, it was just easier to hack at when it was blocked.
> 
> View attachment 116370


Whats that red thing next to your bottle capper?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I read on FB that the 70L will have a false bottom like the competition, any one know if this is correct?


----------



## Reg Holt

wide eyed and legless said:


> It isn't the trub that is the problem, its the viscosity of the wort, so the filter needs a bigger surface area, I also put a fibre washer behind the tap to reduce the flow. The vertical is only there just in case it doesn't work, I can pull on that to empty the kettle (opening up the coils slightly). If you still have your off cut try it in the kettle with cold water, it only dribbles through, then try it with cold water on the full length and it flows real easy.


I shall watch for the outcome with interest.


----------



## goatchop41

Fro-Daddy said:


> I read on FB that the 70L will have a false bottom like the competition, any one know if this is correct?


Ask KK, it's their product, so they should be able to tell you.
Oh wait, WEAL is on here...so yeah, you'll have an answer about it from them then


----------



## malt and barley blues

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got my set up ready for the next brew, 2 and a bit helix, the vertical is the get out of jail in case it doesn't work.
> View attachment 116378


When are you going to try it WEAL?


goatchop41 said:


> Ask KK, it's their product, so they should be able to tell you.
> Oh wait, WEAL is on here...so yeah, you'll have an answer about it from them then


KK can answer for themselves now they are allowed to post on here. I had a gander at the 70 litre can't recall seeing a false bottom then again I wasn't looking for one.


----------



## Kenf

Well my twin bazooka screen was a complete failure (in fact the whole project - Frankenfather has been less than brilliant!). So I think the false bottom in the way to go. As WEAL said you need a bigger surface area or the pump starves.
If you open up the helix, you sought of defeat the purpose! I just wonder if we expect too much out of a single vessel system - expecting it to do what a multi vessel system does? Or is pumping into a bright tank at boiling and letting it settle out the go?
I don’t know! But I do know I have spent far too much on trying to build the perfect single vessel system and after this weekends efforts, I may as well go 3V!


----------



## Vic

Truman42 said:


> I find that at EOB my wort is clear with suspended particles clumped together. But as soon as I start the pump to whirlpool the clumps all break up and my wort goes cloudy. If Im using the helix the pump slows down and stops (Im using an external Marsh pump). But if i dont whirlpool cooling takes ages. I tried it without the helix and it flowed better but still had cloudy wort and removing the immersion chiller seems to stir up the trub again anyway.
> 
> When I used a plate chiller I just stirred with a spoon 5 mins after EOB and let it sit for 10 mins. Crystal clear with a nice trub cone. Still trying to decide if I should go back to either a plate chiller or a CFC as the immersion chiller isnt as good as I thought it would be.


Change the way you use your chiller, I presume your immersion chiller is a SS or copper coil. Do it the other way around. Pass the wort through the chiller, immerse the chiller in something like a 20 L bucket with the ability to pass cooling water in and out. Not as efficient for sure but more convenient. Depending on temperatures, when cooling slows stop cooling water supply and ad ice to the bucket. I often cool this way to 12C. When at pitching temp if possible isolate the chiller so the pump is not restricted and really let your whirlpool spin up for a few minutes. Shut pump off and wait. I usually wait 50+ mins. You will have clear wort with a big cone of shame in the center. Position your intake about 80mm of the bottom (needs to be done before) not connected to the helix. Start transfer to fermenter at full speed. When wort level is close to the intake. Stop. Using a sanitised mash paddle push the intake down into the helix T-piece, no seal required. Restrict pump to a very slow flow, you can now get the last few liters out with no goop in your fermenter. This way the helix only has to filter a small quantity of the total wort and is unlikely to block. Latest brew, I did not bother with the T piece and just pushed the intake down between the helix and the edge. Seemed to work just as well. To get the last bit of precious wort tilt the vessel slowly, cone of shame should not get sucked in.


----------



## devoutharpist

Vic said:


> You will have clear wort with a big cone of shame in the center. Position your intake about 80mm of the bottom (needs to be done before) not connected to the helix.



Quoted mainly for "cone of shame". 

This might be the way i try next, but i'll just sacrifice a couple of L as i don't have a helix. What are people using to extend the pump intake? (in this case the 80mm from bottom)


----------



## Truman42

Vic said:


> Change the way you use your chiller, I presume your immersion chiller is a SS or copper coil. Do it the other way around. Pass the wort through the chiller, immerse the chiller in something like a 20 L bucket with the ability to pass cooling water in and out. Not as efficient for sure but more convenient. Depending on temperatures, when cooling slows stop cooling water supply and ad ice to the bucket. I often cool this way to 12C. When at pitching temp if possible isolate the chiller so the pump is not restricted and really let your whirlpool spin up for a few minutes. Shut pump off and wait. I usually wait 50+ mins. You will have clear wort with a big cone of shame in the center. Position your intake about 80mm of the bottom (needs to be done before) not connected to the helix. Start transfer to fermenter at full speed. When wort level is close to the intake. Stop. Using a sanitised mash paddle push the intake down into the helix T-piece, no seal required. Restrict pump to a very slow flow, you can now get the last few liters out with no goop in your fermenter. This way the helix only has to filter a small quantity of the total wort and is unlikely to block. Latest brew, I did not bother with the T piece and just pushed the intake down between the helix and the edge. Seemed to work just as well. To get the last bit of precious wort tilt the vessel slowly, cone of shame should not get sucked in.



ROFLMAO at "Cone of shame" 

Sounds like a good idea and I will give it a try. Just wondering if you pushed the T piece down in between the helix last time then the helix isnt really needed at all? Could I just have an elbow with a barb that faces up and then as the level gets close spin it around so it faces down to get the last few litres of wort?


----------



## Vic

Without the helix, a lot more hop and break material gets sucked up. The helix works well for the last few litres.


----------



## Vic

Truman42 said:


> ROFLMAO at "Cone of shame"
> 
> Sounds like a good idea and I will give it a try. Just wondering if you pushed the T piece down in between the helix last time then the helix isnt really needed at all? Could I just have an elbow with a barb that faces up and then as the level gets close spin it around so it faces down to get the last few litres of wort?


The barb and elbow bit is exactly how I do it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Vic said:


> The barb and elbow bit is exactly how I do it.


Exactly as I have been doing it without a helix, made up a pick up arm and having the patience to wait while it all settles out. I know it shouldn't matter as I do allow for a 2 litre loss in the calculations, but then find it hard to waste it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Kenf said:


> Well my twin bazooka screen was a complete failure (in fact the whole project - Frankenfather has been less than brilliant!). So I think the false bottom in the way to go. As WEAL said you need a bigger surface area or the pump starves.
> If you open up the helix, you sought of defeat the purpose! I just wonder if we expect too much out of a single vessel system - expecting it to do what a multi vessel system does? Or is pumping into a bright tank at boiling and letting it settle out the go?
> I don’t know! But I do know I have spent far too much on trying to build the perfect single vessel system and after this weekends efforts, I may as well go 3V!


If you do pump the wort hot, the helix will work, you will only get the break material in the fermenter and now you are the proud owner of the Guten conical you can just dump it.
I am trying to find a solution to us poor people who have the PET fermenters.


----------



## Kenf

so true WEAL! In fact it is working so well I thinking of getting another!
Just I was really hoping the helix would work!
I see KK has 300 mm false bottoms & I started to wonder 
Cheers


----------



## Reg Holt

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got my set up ready for the next brew, 2 and a bit helix, the vertical is the get out of jail in case it doesn't work.
> View attachment 116378


Any luck with this set up WEAL? Have you tried it?


----------



## sp0rk

Reg Holt said:


> Any luck with this set up WEAL? Have you tried it?


Check the Keg King thread, he reported that it worked very well


----------



## Reg Holt

sp0rk said:


> Check the Keg King thread, he reported that it worked very well


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you do pump the wort hot, the helix will work, you will only get the break material in the fermenter and now you are the proud owner of the Guten conical you can just dump it.
> I am trying to find a solution to us poor people who have the PET fermenters.



This is what I do, why is it bad and also why should I dump it?

I dont use a helix and I drop hop pellets straight in the Guten 50L

After boil, I use the immersion cooler and cool to about 40C (it doesnt take long, may 10mins)

I remove the immersion cooler

Then I whirlpool using a paddle connected to a portable drill, I whirlpool like this for 1 minute

Let it settle for about 15min

Using the Guten inbuilt pump, I pump into the conical fermenter, I use a kitchen metal sieve in between the hose and the fermenter. I usually catch a few debris at the beginning, and near the end. 

I cool the fermenter using a glycol chiller to pitching temps, this takes about 30-60m
Add the yeast and dont bother dumping anything until after transfer to keg.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Breweries go to great lengths to separate the trub from the wort all the writers of home brew books I have read apart from one (Randy Mosher) recommend separating the trub from the wort.
Everyone has their own methods for me I prefer to ferment a clean wort.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/14356007.a03_421.pub2


----------



## Ballaratguy

Hmmm ok if the helix works well with the hot wort, I’m thinking that if I pump the wort through the helix into the fermenter and then cool it with the immersion chiller ..........


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Ballaratguy said:


> Hmmm ok if the helix works well with the hot wort, I’m thinking that if I pump the wort through the helix into the fermenter and then cool it with the immersion chiller ..........


That's a 'Catch 22' you will end up with the cold break in the fermenter.


----------



## sp0rk

does anyone have a PDF copy of the guten manual?
I emailed KK this week to try and get a copy, but no response
My copy has gone walkabout (read: the mrs put it somewhere while cleaning, more than likely under the bathroom sink)


----------



## Reg Holt

Yes, same as if you no chill all the cold break ends up in the cube.


----------



## Andr3w

Google 'brew devil manual'. Should be first hit and it's nicer to read than the Guten manual.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

sp0rk said:


> does anyone have a PDF copy of the guten manual?
> I emailed KK this week to try and get a copy, but no response
> My copy has gone walkabout (read: the mrs put it somewhere while cleaning, more than likely under the bathroom sink)


Maybe she put it in one of those places that is easy to remember where it was put, my wife does the same. Will PM you sp0rk with a number to try, pretty sure he translated the manual so he should be able to help you.


----------



## Truman42

Andr3w said:


> Google 'brew devil manual'. Should be first hit and it's nicer to read than the Guten manual.


Thats what Ive got, much easier to follow.


----------



## sp0rk

Thanks all, the Brew Devil manual worked great
Ended up with terrible efficiency though, I think around 65%
Mashing in 6.25kg of grain with only 22L of strike water probably didn't help...


----------



## goatchop41

sp0rk said:


> Thanks all, the Brew Devil manual worked great
> Ended up with terrible efficiency though, I think around 65%
> Mashing in 6.25kg of grain with only 21L of strike water probably didn't help...



Yeah...~2.3L/kg ratio - that's a bit thicker than is ideal on these systems


----------



## sp0rk

goatchop41 said:


> Yeah...~2.3L/kg ratio - that's a bit thicker than is ideal on these systems


Yep, I'm thinking I should have done this batch as full volume, mashed out at 78C then lifted the malt pipe and recirculated over the grain bed as a sort of pseudo-sparge to rinse out some residual sugars


----------



## sp0rk

That or after reading back through this thread, I've mashed/sparged like you would with a normal mash tun and that's where I've come undone (not accounting for lost mashing volume under the malt pipe)
I mashed in with around about 22L and sparged with 13L
I'm now thinking I should have mashed with closer to 30L then sparged with 5L (I think...)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

sp0rk said:


> That or after reading back through this thread, I've mashed/sparged like you would with a normal mash tun and that's where I've come undone (not accounting for lost mashing volume under the malt pipe)
> I mashed in with around about 22L and sparged with 13L
> I'm now thinking I should have mashed with closer to 30L then sparged with 5L (I think...)


As you have the 50 litre sp0rk try the full volume mash (if you are aiming for a 21 or 23 litre target into the fermenter) I was doing the 30 litre or so and sparging with 3 to 5 litre in the 40 litre Guten, saves a lot of stuffing around sparging for a few dollars more of extra grain.


----------



## dibbz

I made a little thing to keep the pump inlet up a little, its the same height as the false bottom.


----------



## dibbz

Also the question about break... almost no hops as this is for a barrel fill...


----------



## Milk-lizard84

dibbz said:


> Also the question about break... almost no hops as this is for a barrel fill...
> 
> View attachment 116597


Just wondering how you cut down the false bottom? Purchased a 65L brewzilla false bottom to try and replicate what you have done.


----------



## dibbz

Gentle angle grinder, they aren't very thick so a light touch with a cutting disc is enough and you can be quite nimble.

You can use the lid to mark where to cut.


----------



## Ballaratguy

First ferment in my Guten fermenter 
Time to dump the grub and to dry hop
I’ve made up a temporary version of the Nor Cal brewing supplies yeast brink and hooked it onto my Guten fermenter
The brink allows me to dump the grub for later use and also to inject hops into the fermenter alll without any exposure to oxygen
It’s a bit rugged but it worked


----------



## Milk-lizard84

dibbz said:


> Gentle angle grinder, they aren't very thick so a light touch with a cutting disc is enough and you can be quite nimble.
> 
> You can use the lid to mark where to cut.


I didn't even think to use the lid to mark out the shape to cut. Thanks for that. Be interested to see how you go with a beer with a decent amount of hops.


----------



## devoutharpist

Some musings. Hopefully back in action on the Guten this long weekend, been about three months and my last keg is almost kicked.

Think i am gonna go simple this time and just carefully big spoon whirlpool it, once it is as far down as i can get it with the IC. Then gravity feed it out the front tap. 

Probably gonna use the hop spider since i haven't tried a proper whirlpool to settle everything. I still reckon the mesh is far too fine on the one that came with the Guten though.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> Some musings. Hopefully back in action on the Guten this long weekend, been about three months and my last keg is almost kicked.
> 
> Think i am gonna go simple this time and just carefully big spoon whirlpool it, once it is as far down as i can get it with the IC. Then gravity feed it out the front tap.
> 
> Probably gonna use the hop spider since i haven't tried a proper whirlpool to settle everything. I still reckon the mesh is far too fine on the one that came with the Guten though.


You aren't wrong the hop spiders are too fine, from both KL and KK, just throttle back on the tap for a slow steady flow.


----------



## devoutharpist

brew day went relatively well, the human powered whirlpool worked decently, some stuff did make it into the fermenter but not as much as last time when i didn't whirlpool. That the nut on the back of the tap came loose when i was transferring to the fermenter so i had to hold it against the kettle for the entire transfer. 

So that brings me to my question, has anyone else had the bottom screen of their malt pipe warp? mine doesn't fit as snugly as it once did. Maybe an excuse to upgrade to that new bottom screen KK had.


----------



## goatchop41

devoutharpist said:


> So that brings me to my question, has anyone else had the bottom screen of their malt pipe warp? mine doesn't fit as snugly as it once did. Maybe an excuse to upgrade to that new bottom screen KK had.



Both of my top and bottom plates warped a bit. I got the locking bottom plate from KK and have used that for the last 3 brews - it's much, much better than the standard bottom plate


----------



## devoutharpist

Now to figure out if i need anything else since i'm copping shipping. How have people found the jacket you can buy for the Guten? Whirlpool arm?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> Now to figure out if i need anything else since i'm copping shipping. How have people found the jacket you can buy for the Guten? Whirlpool arm?


Jacket is good addition, whirlpool arm no good if hops aren't contained.
Never have had a problem with the screen, I only use the bottom one, can't see a need for the top screen. If I did find I had a problem with the bottom screen I would put the two screens together.


----------



## Truman42

Ballaratguy said:


> First ferment in my Guten fermenter
> Time to dump the grub and to dry hop
> I’ve made up a temporary version of the Nor Cal brewing supplies yeast brink and hooked it onto my Guten fermenter
> The brink allows me to dump the grub for later use and also to inject hops into the fermenter alll without any exposure to oxygen
> It’s a bit rugged but it worked
> View attachment 116626


Hey mate can you explain how this works exactly to tet the hops up into the wort? I would like to build one for my chronical?

EDIT: Just saw a youtube clip on how it works. Can you show a photo of whats on the inside of yours? How you connected up the fittings etc?


----------



## Ballaratguy

Truman42 said:


> Hey mate can you explain how this works exactly to tet the hops up into the wort? I would like to build one for my chronical?
> 
> EDIT: Just saw a youtube clip on how it works. Can you show a photo of whats on the inside of yours? How you connected up the fittings etc?


Sorry for the late reply
I just got 1Lt decor plastic bottle and attached plastic fittings of a size which suits my fermenter (3/4”)
I then went to Clark rubber and got o bit of pvc hose that was a snug fit inside the plastic fittings. The pvc hose needs to be at least 6 - 18mm from the base of the bottle.
From my experience you would need a bigger than 1Lt bottle
What I put together (I’ll post photos tomorrow) was just a rough quick & low cost tryout


----------



## Truman42

Ballaratguy said:


> Sorry for the late reply
> I just got 1Lt decor plastic bottle and attached plastic fittings of a size which suits my fermenter (3/4”)
> I then went to Clark rubber and got o bit of pvc hose that was a snug fit inside the plastic fittings. The pvc hose needs to be at least 6 - 18mm from the base of the bottle.
> From my experience you would need a bigger than 1Lt bottle
> What I put together (I’ll post photos tomorrow) was just a rough quick & low cost tryout


Thanks for that mate. photos would be great. Where did you get the decor bottle from?


----------



## Ballaratguy

Truman42 said:


> Thanks for that mate. photos would be great. Where did you get the decor bottle from?


I actually got it in a salvos shop but I think they may be available in supermarkets


----------



## Truman42

Cheers for the pics. I was actually at Bunnings earlier and brought this below. I could have used a smaller 3/4 elbow but wanted to extend it out a bit so I can screw it on without fouling with the legs of the fermenter.
I was just going to cut the riser to the correct size. So how well does it work? Do you have to do it a few times to get all of your hops in there?

Did you have dramas getting a good seal on the lid where the collar goes through the lid? I might have to get what you have as it seems like it will seal better than what Ive got. Whats the knurled bit inside the lid though? Did you get it from Bunnings?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A good idea would be good with a glass jar and sturdy lid,


----------



## Truman42

Bloody hell its so hard trying to find a decent container. I went to 5 $2 shops today, Woolies and Bunnings. Serached online and the Decor flask like you have is $43 on ebay or $13 with $18 for postage somewhere else. I looked at glass jars with lids but they didnt look like they would seal that well. i need to find a decent sized mason jar.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Maybe you need to get plastic, I was thinking glass for cleaning purposes.
https://www.thermofisher.com/au/en/.../reusable-plasticware/laboratory-bottles.html


----------



## Ballaratguy

Just picked up this 1.7Lt jarfor $5 from Cheap as Chips
Going to connect with hose barbs






Truman42 said:


> Cheers for the pics. I was actually at Bunnings earlier and brought this below. I could have used a smaller 3/4 elbow but wanted to extend it out a bit so I can screw it on without fouling with the legs of the fermenter.
> I was just going to cut the riser to the correct size. So how well does it work? Do you have to do it a few times to get all of your hops in there?
> 
> Did you have dramas getting a good seal on the lid where the collar goes through the lid? I might have to get what you have as it seems like it will seal better than what Ive got. Whats the knurled bit inside the lid though? Did you get it from Bunnings?
> 
> View attachment 116712


the knurled nut is just that...a nut to hold the all thread to the lid
As you are only transferring at low pressure you don’t have to worry too much about gas seal. A little leakage wouldn’t hurt (mine didn’t leak)
I’ll be using hose barbs to attach the cymbal hose to both the fermenter and the jar
With the 1Lt jar I did have to do the transfer of both the grub and the hops several times
The hops were relatively easy put them in and allow some wort into the jar and leave it for the hops to powder then gas it and open the valve
You May need to fill the jar withwort and repeat several times to get the hops into your fermenter


----------



## Ballaratguy

I’ve just tried meh new glass one but the lid although stainless steel it has a plastic thread so the lid just slides off when gas pressure is applied
I may try the other glass bottle that they had which had a timber (Bugga) lid with wire hinge and clasp


----------



## Truman42

Cheers for the info. I looked at those jars today and nearly brought one so I’m glad I didn’t. I wonder if those sistema containers would be leak proof. The lid clamps down on them nice and tight. They sell a square one for pasta etc in Woolies that’s around 2 litres.


----------



## Ballaratguy

However I used it to add a bit of water to the fermenter and it worked well but I had to push down on the lid. Gas was on about 5-8 psi


----------



## Truman42

Ballaratguy said:


> However I used it to add a bit of water to the fermenter and it worked well but I had to push down on the lid. Gas was on about 5-8 psi


Chronicals are only rated to 2 psi anyway so I’m hoping that’s all I need to push some hops into it.


----------



## fdsaasdf

Truman42 said:


> Bloody hell its so hard trying to find a decent container. I went to 5 $2 shops today, Woolies and Bunnings. Serached online and the Decor flask like you have is $43 on ebay or $13 with $18 for postage somewhere else. I looked at glass jars with lids but they didnt look like they would seal that well. i need to find a decent sized mason jar.


Spotlight often have cheap mason jars, I got a 4 pack of the 946ml (normal mouth) set for $20 a while ago that would do the job for this - easy enough to set up some specific lids and interchange with vessels as needed. As an aside I often use the 473ml jars to scoop out and harvest yeast (for very short periods).


----------



## Truman42

fdsaasdf said:


> Spotlight often have cheap mason jars, I got a 4 pack of the 946ml (normal mouth) set for $20 a while ago that would do the job for this - easy enough to set up some specific lids and interchange with vessels as needed. As an aside I often use the 473ml jars to scoop out and harvest yeast (for very short periods).


Yeah I think I will go the mason jar option like Norcal use in the original design. Thanks for the heads up re Spotlight, I didnt know they sold them.


----------



## Truman42

This mob do a 1.9 litre mason jar and they are in Carrum Downs which is the suburb next door to me. But they do post.

https://www.aussimasonpreservingjar...e=product/product&path=141_153&product_id=718


----------



## goatchop41

Do you think you you could please move this conversation to the thread for the guten fermenter? There's over a page of discussion about it now, on the thread for the actual guten all in one system...


----------



## Matthew Amadio

Hey has any had to get a replacement malt pipe I dropped mine full of grain and dented the hell out of it can't seem to find spare ones on keg kings website


----------



## Truman42

goatchop41 said:


> Do you think you you could please move this conversation to the thread for the guten fermenter? There's over a page of discussion about it now, on the thread for the actual guten all in one system...


Where is that exactly? every post that comes up in search links back to this thread???


----------



## devoutharpist

I believe this one... took me ages to find as it doesn't have Guten in the title...

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/keg-king-s-steel-uni-tank.100405/


----------



## Truman42

devoutharpist said:


> I believe this one... took me ages to find as it doesn't have Guten in the title...
> 
> https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/keg-king-s-steel-uni-tank.100405/


Ahhh, thanks mate, yeah I was only searching for Guten, Guten fermenter etc


----------



## Abird89

Keen to try a false bottom with my Guten after blockages on last brew. I recall someone is using one but can’t find the post - which one fits the Guten 50L?


----------



## devoutharpist

Abird89 said:


> Keen to try a false bottom with my Guten after blockages on last brew. I recall someone is using one but can’t find the post - which one fits the Guten 50L?



From memory a couple of people got the robobrew false bottom and cut it to fit? I don't think there was anything better than that solution for a false bottom. WEAL did have an elaborate setup of helix coils which worked pretty well.


----------



## Abird89

devoutharpist said:


> From memory a couple of people got the robobrew false bottom and cut it to fit? I don't think there was anything better than that solution for a false bottom. WEAL did have an elaborate setup of helix coils which worked pretty well.



I’ve got a helix but giving up on it. Frustrates me to no end. I’d prefer to go back to the false bottom system I used to use on my robobrew v2


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Ask the question on the Keg King thread, I am sure if there is enough interest that the manufacturers of the Guten could knock something up. Should be easy as the 50 and 40 litre models are the same diameter. The 70 litre is a larger diameter. I don't think they will stop the break material going into the fermenter though.


----------



## devoutharpist

I've resigned to the fact that i can't use the pump if i want to keep maximum crud out of the fermenter. Gravity out of the front tap it is... might look into putting a camlock on the tap and use an external pump for true whirlpool and assisted transfers. 

Brewing tomorrow evening with about 150g of hops going into the kettle, so i will see how well my stone-age spoon whirlpool works for that.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> I've resigned to the fact that i can't use the pump if i want to keep maximum crud out of the fermenter. Gravity out of the front tap it is... might look into putting a camlock on the tap and use an external pump for true whirlpool and assisted transfers.
> 
> Brewing tomorrow evening with about 150g of hops going into the kettle, so i will see how well my stone-age spoon whirlpool works for that.


I think you will find that the spoon will be as good as a pump, as good as the helix which I use is, the higher the gravity, the more viscous the wort, and the slower the emptying of the kettle.


----------



## Neil Buttriss

I'm sure I read somewhere that the Helix is very good for hot cubing tranfers but can be nearly impossible with the cold break, I am thinking that if I wanted to use the pump out to fermentor that maybe a length of tubing so that only pumping from around the same height as the tap is.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Neil Buttriss said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere that the Helix is very good for hot cubing tranfers but can be nearly impossible with the cold break, I am thinking that if I wanted to use the pump out to fermentor that maybe a length of tubing so that only pumping from around the same height as the tap is.


Nothing better for for hot cubing than a helix, tap fully open empties easily. Cool wort is a different story, the higher viscosity means it needs a bigger surface area to drain through. Doubling the length of the helix helps, but not with a high gravity wort.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A dull wet Sunday arvo, decided to make a false bottom of a sort, didn't want to compromise the elements, so came up with this.




A $12 s/steel strainer from one of the Chinese cooking wares shop, cut off the bottom and trimmed around the top. An afterthought, I could have saved myself some time and effort by just making a couple of vertical cuts and let the strainer spring out into position.


----------



## devoutharpist

An inventive solution, i am keen to hear how it performs.

Also what sort of variation do people see while mashing? I had the 50L set to 800w for a batch with 8kg grain and 35L water and i was getting the temp overshooting to +2C. Any thoughts?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> An inventive solution, i am keen to hear how it performs.
> 
> Also what sort of variation do people see while mashing? I had the 50L set to 800w for a batch with 8kg grain and 35L water and i was getting the temp overshooting to +2C. Any thoughts?


I expect that you have calibrated the temperature. And I do get movement in mine I just put it down to the circulating wort. The temperature can only be measured in the one specific point so it isn't really indicative of the overall mash temperature, plus the fact that the temperature control cuts in and out.


----------



## Mya

So what's the consensus then for filtering cold break short of getting a new false bottom? Helix is blocking up entirely with any decent sized grain bill.

Is an upstand bazooka filter & hop spider over the fermenter the best way?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I would say the best option is reduce the outlet, the best method I used was to reduce the outlet using a capillary reducer 19 mm to 12 mm and flattening the 12 mm end of the reducer to no more than a slit.
Wait for the wort to settle and gently empty the kettle.


----------



## Fergy1987

Hey looking at getting a Guten and just wondering if anyone thinks the whirlpool arm is worth it? Thinking of going down the no chill path so would I see any advantage with a whirlpool arm, or should I just stick with the standard design.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fergy1987 said:


> Hey looking at getting a Guten and just wondering if anyone thinks the whirlpool arm is worth it? Thinking of going down the no chill path so would I see any advantage with a whirlpool arm, or should I just stick with the standard design.


No you won't need the whirlpool arm, if you are 'no chill' get the helix.


----------



## Fergy1987

Anyone have a tried and tested equipment profile for the 40L Guten for BrewFather - I created my own but think its a bit off.


----------



## Mya

Has anyone had much success doing micro (eg 10L) batches in the Guten? I would imagine that you either need a BIAB setup or you need some mini removable mesh malt bucket with short feet to keep the malt pipe off of the bottom of the Guten.

A 10L batch with no sparging would use about 18L preboil so the height in the Guten would be about 19cm, with grain volume about 24cm, so the malt pipe would be really short once you include maybe 5cm feet. About 15cm tall by 30cm diameter say, with the recirc pump pumping on top of the smaller malt pipe.

Efficiency would be as poor as BIAB but cost of grain isnt a big deal. I'd like to be able to do small test batches.


----------



## goatchop41

Mya said:


> Efficiency would be as poor as BIAB



What is this poor efficiency based on? I used to get 85-90% efficiency with BIAB, and plenty of others get that too.

Anyway, in relation to your main question, I would actually use a bag and do BIAB. I have tried two batches with 11L batch volume and found that the mash was quite thick compared to what I like, and it was just a general hassle of a brew. If I did it again, I would use my old BIAB bag


----------



## JDB

After a weekend of mishaps I'm a false bottom convert. I've struggled with a helix setup on the tap outlet, which is slow to drain, even when hot cubing. Decided to go down the Brewzilla false bottom route. was easy enough to cut to size using an angle grinder. Was doing a double batch (9 kg grain in the 50l), when the bottom fell out of the malt pipe while I was lifting it out. Made a real mess, and I assumed the brew was ruined. False bottom to the rescue though,it did a great job at keeping the pump clear, so that I managed to pump the wort out into some cubes, then sparged with more water and pumped out again. After a clean up I managed to finish the brew off, ended up with 40l at target OG, so only lost a few litres. Would have been totally ruined without the false bottom.


----------



## lumdogs

Hey guys - anyone know where I could get a replacement NTC thermistor for the Guten from. I’ve managed to source one from Angel Brew in the UK but wondered if there is anyone on here who has replaced there’s locally and what did they use. TIA. 

https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/spares/378-brewdevil-temperature-sensor.html


----------



## wide eyed and legless

lumdogs said:


> Hey guys - anyone know where I could get a replacement NTC thermistor for the Guten from. I’ve managed to source one from Angel Brew in the UK but wondered if there is anyone on here who has replaced there’s locally and what did they use. TIA.
> 
> https://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/en/spares/378-brewdevil-temperature-sensor.html


Try Keg King they are the distributor in Australia.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

My Guten 40 litre conked out, have been thinking of doing the upgrade to the latest control panel and screen so not particularly worried.
What happened was I had a small leak on the tap when i got up to start the brew lost about 1/2 litre overnight gave the tap a turn and it stopped. What had me concerned was water was slowly dripping from underneath so I knew water had got into the internal part, went the full mash cycle (75 minutes) thought I was OK as the water had stopped dripping 30 mins before. Heard the unmistakable pop of a fuse blowing, from where I was standing I could see both the switch lights still on walked around the front and the screen was dead. So a tip for those single vessel owners, run a bead of silicone around the joint of the body and the housing.


----------



## Kenf

Thx WEAL I had something similar happen to my modified Digiboil (water dripping out the bottom). I was convinced that it was leaking out of the vessel it self, in fact so convinced I got in contact with KL only to then discover a tiny seep from the valve leaking through the join between the lower section and boiler (they are after all very similar).
I was using a GF connect controller at the time so not a biggy.
Might be a good chance to convert your Guten to a Smartpid? 
Cheers


----------



## Meddo

I've got a new, unused SmartPID conversion kit (with the stainless fascia) if you or anyone else decides to go down that path @wide eyed and legless. Changed my mind and taking a different approach myself.


----------



## dibbz

How good do the 70's look!! might be time for an upgrade.

Looks like the brewzilla 65 false bottom might fit, being around 40cm and the diameter of the 70l guten lid extending past the internal diameter to 42cm. I guess if I was getting that I'd try the brewzilla's whirlpool arm too as it looks a bit longer than the 50l guten arm.

I've used the grainfather g70, the old demo one needs a jacket, I suspect this would benefit too.


----------



## dibbz

Went down and ordered one, should have it for the weekend.


----------



## bird

dibbz said:


> Went down and ordered one, should have it for the weekend.


Brought mine online last night. Hoping it'll be here next week so I can do my first all grain brew next weekend.


----------



## Jesper

Alright, i've been a shadow of this forum. 
Now it's my turn to show my atm. filter for the Guten. The filter is still under development, i'll be brewing tomorrow with this frankenstein.
I did try without the inner cutting, but it build up oxygen underneath the screen which made the probe go nutty nutty. It still did an okay job keeping in mind it was better than nothing. Cheers


----------



## revnsbullock

Meddo said:


> I've got a new, unused SmartPID conversion kit (with the stainless fascia) if you or anyone else decides to go down that path @wide eyed and legless. Changed my mind and taking a different approach myself.



Im interested in picking up your Smartpid. How much are you wanting for it?


----------



## dibbz

Hit planned gravity and volume on first go. 3 cubes. https://share.brewfather.app/kNatyL3o7tXQu4

Thanks @Keg King and @HoppyDays 

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/media/albums/guten-70l.1598/


----------



## Meddo

revnsbullock said:


> Im interested in picking up your Smartpid. How much are you wanting for it?


Flick me a PM mate


----------



## Fro-Daddy

How many watts does everyone mash and boil at?
Does it make a difference if it is a single or double batch?


----------



## Truman42

wide eyed and legless said:


> My Guten 40 litre conked out, have been thinking of doing the upgrade to the latest control panel and screen so not particularly worried.
> What happened was I had a small leak on the tap when i got up to start the brew lost about 1/2 litre overnight gave the tap a turn and it stopped. What had me concerned was water was slowly dripping from underneath so I knew water had got into the internal part, went the full mash cycle (75 minutes) thought I was OK as the water had stopped dripping 30 mins before. Heard the unmistakable pop of a fuse blowing, from where I was standing I could see both the switch lights still on walked around the front and the screen was dead. So a tip for those single vessel owners, run a bead of silicone around the joint of the body and the housing.


I made a crafteerpi controller box for mine. I can switch between the Guten controls (Say if Im just running some sod perc to clean) or cbpi. I added a switch to the side of the guten and 2 IEC plugs underneath in the cable well. 1 for the elements and 1 for the pump. I use a PT100 probe in thermowell screwed into a stainless T piece where the ball valve connects but thinking of drilling a new hole for this.

Has worked fine so far over a dozen brews other than a few minor issues with the cbpi add ons Ive been using.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> How many watts does everyone mash and boil at?
> Does it make a difference if it is a single or double batch?


I tend to mash at 1700 watt and boil at 2000 watt some mash at a lower temperature 15 to 1600 watt just saves scorching over the elements. The bigger diameter of the 70 litre may make a difference I don't know. I have upgraded to the latest control panel and circuit board, calibrated my temp settings and find I don't get as good a boil as the original circuit board. Just something you will have to play around with.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Do you ramp the temp using higher power? Or just go straight from mash to boil and keep it at 2000w the whole time?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Jesper said:


> Alright, i've been a shadow of this forum.
> Now it's my turn to show my atm. filter for the Guten. The filter is still under development, i'll be brewing tomorrow with this frankenstein.
> I did try without the inner cutting, but it build up oxygen underneath the screen which made the probe go nutty nutty. It still did an okay job keeping in mind it was better than nothing. Cheers


How did it go Jesper?
I have found 4 meters of helix works exceptionally well, but still have to compromise with the loss to the kettle, I can't see any way of salvaging any more beer from the trub.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> Do you ramp the temp using higher power? Or just go straight from mash to boil and keep it at 2000w the whole time?


No I don't bother about ramping up to the boil phase, but check your boil at 2000 watt mine has a hood but with the new circuit board didn't get the good rolling boil I was getting with my old circuit board.


----------



## golfandbrew

I use full power to get to strike temp then will lower to about 1200-1500 for the mash. I like that the power is easily adjustable. On hot day I may run it at 1200. Cold winter day I may run it at 1500. I just watch how the temperature is holding and adjust accordingly. Last Brew I forgot to reduce the wattage for the first 15 minutes. Thought for sure I had scorched it. Wasn't bad at all in the end. I boil full power and get a nice rolling boil.


----------



## Ballaratguy

I just set mine at 1700 for both mash and boil
I get a little bit of crud stuck over the element but found that a scrub with vinegar will get it off. thinking about it though I may drop it down a bit as the boil switches on and off


----------



## Jesper

wide eyed and legless said:


> How did it go Jesper?
> I have found 4 meters of helix works exceptionally well, but still have to compromise with the loss to the kettle, I can't see any way of salvaging any more beer from the trub.
> View attachment 117265
> View attachment 117266


Around the same as yours. I did cool my wort to kveik pitching temp at 35° c. Which I understand many of you Aussie doesn't, which is totally understandable. I was disappointed about losing a couple of worthy liters, but at least it did transfer less trub. I'll trying to finish my filter bag this weekend.

I tend to mash at 700w outside with a neoprene ghetto style robobrew jacket on. And boil for 3000w because outdoors temp here is around 5-9° Celsius


----------



## bird

Received my guten 70lt in the mail yesterday and will be doing my first all grain brew on Saturday. I have turned a keg into a hlt so I can sparge but had a Couple of questions.

Do you guys use the inbuilt pump to transfer to the fermenter after chilling ? Its a big unit and I don't have a pump for the sparge water so thought it would be pretty hard to have the guten tap higher than the fermenter as well as the keg being higher than the malt pipe once it's raised to drain the grain. 

Does anyone know approximately how much boil off there will be during the boil. I'm planning on doing a 40lt batch to start with. Not sure if the volume will affect the amount of boil off.

Is there anything I should look out for with the guten? Will have a mate who's an experienced ag brewer helping me but he's never used a single vessel before. 

Thanks for any info and advice.


----------



## golfandbrew

I use the tap to transfer to my snub nose. I'm using a 40 litre so it's no problem to have it sitting a bit higher on a rack so the tap is just above the top of my fermenter. If I'm cubing I'll just set the kettle on a milk crate as it's a good height for running wort out of the tap to the cube.

Boil off can vary especially if you're boiling at higher or lower power than someone else. I would recommend you allow for 5-10% boil off and just make a note of what you actually get from this first brew to apply to the next one.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

bird said:


> Received my guten 70lt in the mail yesterday and will be doing my first all grain brew on Saturday. I have turned a keg into a hlt so I can sparge but had a Couple of questions.
> 
> Do you guys use the inbuilt pump to transfer to the fermenter after chilling ? Its a big unit and I don't have a pump for the sparge water so thought it would be pretty hard to have the guten tap higher than the fermenter as well as the keg being higher than the malt pipe once it's raised to drain the grain.
> 
> Does anyone know approximately how much boil off there will be during the boil. I'm planning on doing a 40lt batch to start with. Not sure if the volume will affect the amount of boil off.
> 
> Is there anything I should look out for with the guten? Will have a mate who's an experienced ag brewer helping me but he's never used a single vessel before.
> 
> Thanks for any info and advice.


The biggest problem in using the pump is pumping all the trub into the fermenter, unless you have a means of dumping it from the fermenter. Better to get a hoist above the Guten and put it on a stand, then empty from the tap.
The boil off for mine (40 & 50 litre) is the same as they have the same diameter, 5 litres / hour, yours is a larger diameter and I would say its the same as my 60 litre Brau Wolf so that is 6 litres / hour. Best to put about 18 to 20 litres in the kettle and boil for 1 hour to make sure. Volume doesn't make any difference only time.


----------



## dibbz

bird said:


> Do you guys use the inbuilt pump to transfer to the fermenter after chilling ? Its a big unit and I don't have a pump for the sparge water so thought it would be pretty hard to have the guten tap higher than the fermenter as well as the keg being higher than the malt pipe once it's raised to drain the grain.
> 
> Does anyone know approximately how much boil off there will be during the boil. I'm planning on doing a 40lt batch to start with. Not sure if the volume will affect the amount of boil off.



Yes, also the pump is massive. I used the pump on the 50L from boiling with a counter flow chiller many times.

If you use brewfather take the 65L robobrew profile, it's 6.5l/hr. i think it would be very similar. If you also change the water to grain ratio to 2.7 like a grainfather you get the 60l volumes with ~29L sparge.


----------



## dibbz

Also the robobrew 65l whirlpool arm is very large and comes out way down the bottom of the guten 70 which is good.

And about 2-3mm off a 65l false bottom to fit the 70L.

If you pump that trub in a whirlpool long enough it'll all pile up in the middle of the false bottom.


----------



## bird

Thanks for the Advice guys. I'll do a test run today in preparation for brewing tomorrow. 

Will look into that whirlpool arm and false bottom screen. Sounds worthwhile.

Any suggestions on a sealant to use on the temperature gauge? I've tried everything to get it to seal but it still leaks slightly. Was thinking about a bit of silicone around the washer on the outside of the keg.


----------



## bird

Please disregard silicone question. Fixed it with some thread tape. 

Thanks guys.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Has anyone used the brewzilla whirlpool arm in a 40 litre Guten? Just wondering if it is too tall.


----------



## golfandbrew

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Has anyone used the brewzilla whirlpool arm in a 40 litre Guten? Just wondering if it is too tall.


I bought the 50L Guten Whirlpool arm for my 40 and it works a treat.


----------



## bird

Hey guys. 

So I fired up my new guten 70lt up on Saturday to do my first brew. All was going great until I cranked it up to boil. Got to a bit over 80c and then something went wrong and the controller died. Luckily the pump still worked and I was able to pump some off the wort into my sparge vessel and finish off the boil. Sent the kegking CEO a pm on here explaining what happened and he replied very quickly and asked me to call the shop first thing Monday morning. Spoke with Kyle at the shop who was very helpful and he gave the CEO my number. Will called me back not long after apologizing for the inconvenience and explained that this is very rare but can happen. He has since sent me a new guten with a postage stamp so I can return the broken one. The new guten they unpacked and tested since I live so far away. I would like to thank kegking and Will the CEO for such amazing customer service. really appreciate the after sales care. look forward to purchasing from you guys again. 

And look forward to brewing next weekend on the guten.


----------



## dibbz

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Has anyone used the brewzilla whirlpool arm in a 40 litre Guten? Just wondering if it is too tall.



Stubby cooler for scale, can get a finger in between them still, hard to see from looking down.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

dibbz said:


> Stubby cooler for scale, can get a finger in between them still, hard to see from looking down.


Cheers for that dibbz. Just to confirm, that's the brewzilla arm in a 40litre guten?


----------



## dibbz

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Cheers for that dibbz. Just to confirm, that's the brewzilla arm in a 40litre guten?


ohhhh 65l in the 70l


----------



## mmulv2

Whats the difference between the 50L and 75L? are they different versions?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

mmulv2 said:


> Whats the difference between the 50L and 75L? are they different versions?


The 40, 50 and 70 litre are the same, apart from the capacity. 40 and 50 are same diameter the 70 is a bigger dia.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

The 70L has a few cosmetic changes, and a few handy features like a sight glass and the stepped malt pipe.
The malt pipe change was helpful over the weekend. I had 9.5kg of grain and the unit was on a milk crate so the pipe had to go quite high.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I believe that those adjustable malt pipes are now available in store, not sure on the sight glass, wondering if they could be a source of infection, sweet wort sitting in there and not getting boiled.


----------



## golfandbrew

I have been waiting on the adjustable malt pipe piece and grooved lifting handle. Are they selling the handles in shop too? What about the metal lids? I know I am going to break my glass lid at some point, don't much care about the distillation part I just want a lid that isn't going to shatter.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

golfandbrew said:


> I have been waiting on the adjustable malt pipe piece and grooved lifting handle. Are they selling the handles in shop too? What about the metal lids? I know I am going to break my glass lid at some point, don't much care about the distillation part I just want a lid that isn't going to shatter.


For the handles I use all thread, 4 nuts 2 locked either side leaving a gap for the snap lock fitting, feel really confident using the hoist with that. Go in one of the Chinese cooking utensils shop, they have all manner of different size lids, cheap too.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

wide eyed and legless said:


> not sure on the sight glass, wondering if they could be a source of infection, sweet wort sitting in there and not getting boiled.


Mine didn't really become 'wort' in the sight glass, it was clear water throughout the whole process with a few chunks at the bottom.
This is a witbier so not the darkest example which makes it harder to see.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Well thinking more about it there is wort in the return pipe also. Using the helix I have to periodically open the tap as the wort remains static in there.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I might have to get a helix, the standard tap filter (bazooka?) got clogged towards the end of filling the second cube.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> I might have to get a helix, the standard tap filter (bazooka?) got clogged towards the end of filling the second cube.


If you are cooling the wort you will need 4 joined together to get a good flow, and a clear wort.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

All no chill for me from now on I think.
Will 1m be enough? Are there any extra connections required?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

One is not enough because of the viscosity of the cool wort a bigger surface area is needed. I am going to try 3 meters next brew I will let you know how it goes.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

But I won't be cooling.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> But I won't be cooling.


Then 1 metre.


----------



## bird

Hi guys, received my new guten this week and brewing a pacific ale today. Had a few questions again after my last brew. 
I have read a bit on here about what wattage people are using but was wondering if you guys use the full 3000watts to bring the wort up-to the boil and then turn it down or do you just set it at your desired wattage and leave it there to bring it up-to the boil And hold the boil. 

Also I checked last night that there is approximately 9litres of water under the malt pipe. When working out you 3l water to 1kg of grain ratio for mash in do you include the water under the malt pipe or add it to The total amount. First brew I did I just went for 3 to 1 and it seemed very thick in the malt pipe. 
Thanks for any advice guys.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Before i installed the smart pid, i used to run at full power to get to the boil then lower the power to keep it at a good boil depending on the day. If it was hot it wouldn't need as much power as when it was cold. Then the cover i made lowered the power a bit more.


----------



## golfandbrew

bird said:


> Hi guys, received my new guten this week and brewing a pacific ale today. Had a few questions again after my last brew.
> I have read a bit on here about what wattage people are using but was wondering if you guys use the full 3000watts to bring the wort up-to the boil and then turn it down or do you just set it at your desired wattage and leave it there to bring it up-to the boil And hold the boil.
> 
> Also I checked last night that there is approximately 9litres of water under the malt pipe. When working out you 3l water to 1kg of grain ratio for mash in do you include the water under the malt pipe or add it to The total amount. First brew I did I just went for 3 to 1 and it seemed very thick in the malt pipe.
> Thanks for any advice guys.



The 9 litres is your mash tun dead space so you need to add it your total water calculated with your water/grist ratio. 

If you're using a brewing software enter the dead space amount into your equipment profile and it should add for you.


----------



## bird

Thanks guys. I am using beer Smith so will add the dead space in and see how it goes. What I saved of my first brew a couple of weeks is tasting pretty good so looking forward to brewing again.


----------



## bird

Brew day went really well. Guten performed flawlessly. I overshot the sparge by a couple of litres but ended up with 80 percent efficiency and lost that couple of liters to the trub and dead space so worked out really well. The only down side is waiting two weeks until the fermenting fridge is free so I can brew again.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sure 80% isn't just wishful thinking on your first go?


----------



## bird

I know I didn't believe it either. Got 65% first brew a couple if weeks ago but that's when the guten broke down and had to transfer the beer to another vessel to boil and lost alot of it. Also I lifted the basket out of the wort to do the sparge so the sparge happened very quick. This time I had more water in for the mash and sparged very slowly over about 40minutes. Just Holding and lifting the basket a little at a time. I got the 80% from brew smith after adjusting the recipe to what I had done. very happy with it.


----------



## dibbz

I get 80%, it's the default efficiency in the graindfather tools too, whats not to believe?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

bird said:


> I have read a bit on here about what wattage people are using but was wondering if you guys use the full 3000watts to bring the wort up-to the boil and then turn it down or do you just set it at your desired wattage and leave it there to bring it up-to the boil And hold the boil.


Mine didn't hold a good boil at 2500w, I bumped it up to 2800w and it was ok. I think I'll be doing 3000w on future double batches.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

dibbz said:


> I get 80%, it's the default efficiency in the graindfather tools too, whats not to believe?


First go, or second, on new equipment is hard to believe until there are a few brews under the belt, could be lucky.


Fro-Daddy said:


> Mine didn't hold a good boil at 2500w, I bumped it up to 2800w and it was ok. I think I'll be doing 3000w on future double batches.


Did you calibrate the temperature? Other than that you need a hood.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

wide eyed and legless said:


> Did you calibrate the temperature?


I asked KK about this and they shrugged it off saying no need to do anything. They also don't have a manual for the product at all which I thought was strange.
Even a jacket would help a lot with the boil, on my Robo Gen 2 it was great. But the sight glass is so close to the vessel on the 70L that they may struggle to get one to fit well.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> I asked KK about this and they shrugged it off saying no need to do anything. They also don't have a manual for the product at all which I thought was strange.
> Even a jacket would help a lot with the boil, on my Robo Gen 2 it was great. But the sight glass is so close to the vessel on the 70L that they may struggle to get one to fit well.


There can be a discrepancy on the temperature control this is the only online manual I know of, not sure but I think some one has posted it before.
http://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/upload/brew-devil-manual.pdf
Maybe the jackets will be available later.


----------



## bird

I should probably thank you WEAL and the rest of the guten users Here for being able to get 80% I have read every guten post on here more than once while waiting to get my guten. Learnt a lot and put it to use. Thank you all. 

Fro-daddy - I made a quick jacket out of some roofing insulation for mine. Only had the wattage ata2500 and was taking for ever to boil. Put jacket on and cranked to 3000watts and was boiling in no time. I just cut a hole in the insulation where the sight glass is so I could see the the area I needed to see. Took it off before cooling to help it release the heat quicker And so I could see the sight glass when filling my ferments. It's not perfect but Anything will help with so. Much surface are to lose heat. 
Can't upload photos unfortunately. File to big but it only covers up-to the 55lt mark but seemed to help. I know when I put it around my keg I turned into a hlt it got to sparge temp about 15minutes quicker So must do something.


----------



## bird

Finally worked it out. Nothing pretty but works. Will work on improving it.


----------



## golfandbrew

I found a manual from Braumarkt for their Arsegan. File says too large for me to upload, but it looks like a Guten, and operates like a Guten, so it must be, right?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Tried 3 meters of helix coil in the 40 litre Guten today emptied the kettle at 21 C. Emptying worked really well got my forecast 21 litres into the fermenter. Just have to live with the loss to trub.


----------



## golfandbrew

What's the coil look like in an empty kettle?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

That's at 4 meters, looks neater at 3.


----------



## bird

Slightly improved jacket for the 70lt guten. Can see the full sight glass now and also got some insulation from some old air conditioning pipe to put over the recirc pipe. 

I'm interested in how you guys do your sparge with the guten. The first brew I did I just lifted the malt pipe and ran the sparge water through very quickly. Second brew I held the malt pipe and slowly lifted it over 40minutes so the water moved through slowly. This was very painfull process as I forgot to refill my beer before starting. I am thinking of some sort of whinch setup which I can slowly lift the malt pipe with. any suggestions? 
I've been told that a slower sparge gives better efficiency. Is this true?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

bird said:


> View attachment 117457
> 
> Slightly improved jacket for the 70lt guten. Can see the full sight glass now and also got some insulation from some old air conditioning pipe to put over the recirc pipe.
> 
> I'm interested in how you guys do your sparge with the guten. The first brew I did I just lifted the malt pipe and ran the sparge water through very quickly. Second brew I held the malt pipe and slowly lifted it over 40minutes so the water moved through slowly. This was very painfull process as I forgot to refill my beer before starting. I am thinking of some sort of whinch setup which I can slowly lift the malt pipe with. any suggestions?
> I've been told that a slower sparge gives better efficiency. Is this true?


There are different thoughts, I believe it does others will say just pour it onto the grain bed.As you have the 70 litre that will be a long sparge. With my 50 litre and the hoist I have been thinking along the lines of a batch sparge, instead of 'no sparge' because of the higher volume of grain in the mash.
More reading here.
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/low-efficiency-should-i-sparge-with-more-water.100355/


----------



## golfandbrew

bird said:


> View attachment 117457
> 
> Slightly improved jacket for the 70lt guten. Can see the full sight glass now and also got some insulation from some old air conditioning pipe to put over the recirc pipe.
> 
> I'm interested in how you guys do your sparge with the guten. The first brew I did I just lifted the malt pipe and ran the sparge water through very quickly. Second brew I held the malt pipe and slowly lifted it over 40minutes so the water moved through slowly. This was very painfull process as I forgot to refill my beer before starting. I am thinking of some sort of whinch setup which I can slowly lift the malt pipe with. any suggestions?
> I've been told that a slower sparge gives better efficiency. Is this true?



You held the malt pipe for 40 minutes, that's just showing off!

Doesn't the 70 litre have multiple steps on the malt pipe? Why not lift to the first, sparge a bit, lift to the second, sparge a bit, etc.


----------



## bird

golfandbrew said:


> You held the malt pipe for 40 minutes, that's just showing off!
> 
> Doesn't the 70 litre have multiple steps on the malt pipe? Why not lift to the first, sparge a bit, lift to the second, sparge a bit, etc.


Did that the first brew I did and Had low efficiency. I had a mate with me who has done 3v ag for many years and he mentioned that a slower sparge was important. Pretty easy to do with a 3v System but painstaking on the guten. I have only done 2 brews so far so don't know if the slow Sparge is the reason for the better efficiency or if it was just luck. from what I have read and been told it makes sense to keep doing it. Trying to find a way to hook up an electric winch or something to lift the basket slowly And not have to hold it for so long.


----------



## bird

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are different thoughts, I believe it does others will say just pour it onto the grain bed.As you have the 70 litre that will be a long sparge. With my 50 litre and the hoist I have been thinking along the lines of a batch sparge, instead of 'no sparge' because of the higher volume of grain in the mash.
> More reading here.
> https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/low-efficiency-should-i-sparge-with-more-water.100355/


Interesting reading weal. I don't know a lot about the different sparge methods yet but how will you batch sparge With the guten? I thought a batch sparge you had to drain the grain bed and then refill with sparge water and drain again.


----------



## 2095brewer

I have the 50L guten elevated and add 30L of 75deg water and slowly sparge into a keg. When i have the desired volume or get a gravity low enough to stop, I stop, Lift the malt pipe (a lot lighter as not as much wort in there) and pump the wort back in and start the boil. Takes longer, but it’s a balance between getting the efficiency or shortening the brew day?!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

bird said:


> Interesting reading weal. I don't know a lot about the different sparge methods yet but how will you batch sparge With the guten? I thought a batch sparge you had to drain the grain bed and then refill with sparge water and drain again.


As 2095brewer states is what I am going to do.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Did my second batch in the 70L today.

I added a 1m helix for this batch, seems to fit alright.



Not much colour makes it in to the sight glass while the pump is running.



As soon as the pump is stopped this is all that ends up in there @wide eyed and legless



Helix did a good job.
It flowed great for most of the first cube, but was quite slow near the end of the second one.



My telescopic overflow pipe broke after removing the grain. It was super flimsy and the tiny spot welds weren't enough to hold its own weight. I'll call KK tomorrow but I might have to get a bolt and block it up.


----------



## bird

Mine broke last weekend as well. Spoke with kk and they sent me a new one no questions asked. I had the same with the sight glass. Clear when mashing and then noticed the bottom half had colored after the sparge pushed more water in. 
How important is the overflow pipe? Is a stuck Mash a common thing?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I've never had a stuck mash, but I like the insurance of it.
Today I had to go out and refill my co2 while it was mashing so I set the pipe to 15mm or so above the wort and had no worries.
I've been doing no sparge so I am usually quite close to the handle holes anyway.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> Helix did a good job.
> It flowed great for most of the first cube, but was quite slow near the end of the second one.
> View attachment 117495
> 
> 
> My telescopic overflow pipe broke after removing the grain. It was super flimsy and the tiny spot welds weren't enough to hold its own weight. I'll call KK tomorrow but I might have to get a bolt and block it up.


I think if you change the Tee piece to an elbow you will get a little extra wort by pointing the elbow at an angle downwards, fit a capillary blank on the opposite end, those Tee's sit too proud out of the wort.

How did the sight glass break?
I really think you would be better off without one, nothing wrong with a piece of dowel with increments marked on it.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

wide eyed and legless said:


> How did the sight glass break?


It was the telescopic overflow pipe that broke. The height adjustable one attached to the bottom screen of the malt pipe.

I was thinking of getting an elbow and putting the bazooka on the other end to cap it off.


----------



## goatchop41

bird said:


> Mine broke last weekend as well. Spoke with kk and they sent me a new one no questions asked. I had the same with the sight glass. Clear when mashing and then noticed the bottom half had colored after the sparge pushed more water in.
> How important is the overflow pipe? Is a stuck Mash a common thing?



It's just a safety feature. The good thing about a telescopic overflow is that you can set its height above the grain bed to just a little less than the distance between the bottom of the unit and the malt pipe, then you'll never run the risk of a burnt dry element - as it'll never accumulate more liquid on the top than comes out of the bottom


----------



## JDB

goatchop41 said:


> It's just a safety feature. The good thing about a telescopic overflow is that you can set its height above the grain bed to just a little less than the distance between the bottom of the unit and the malt pipe, then you'll never run the risk of a burnt dry element - as it'll never accumulate more liquid on the top than comes out of the bottom



I lost a few parts to my overflow pipe so was keen to get the telescopic one, but these reports of broken welds is a bit worrying. I had a badly scorched element after brewing a hefeweizen with my overflow blocked up, probably could have been avoided with more rice hulls, but a telescopic overflow would have helped too.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Another bloke on FB said his broke as well, I think it will be very common.
They look to have a few little spot welds at the bottom but it just isn't enough. Hopefully the replacement they are sending me is better.


----------



## Sjek

Fro-Daddy said:


> Did my second batch in the 70L today.
> 
> I added a 1m helix for this batch, seems to fit alright.
> View attachment 117491
> 
> 
> Not much colour makes it in to the sight glass while the pump is running.
> View attachment 117493
> 
> 
> As soon as the pump is stopped this is all that ends up in there @wide eyed and legless
> View attachment 117494
> 
> 
> Helix did a good job.
> It flowed great for most of the first cube, but was quite slow near the end of the second one.
> View attachment 117495
> 
> 
> My telescopic overflow pipe broke after removing the grain. It was super flimsy and the tiny spot welds weren't enough to hold its own weight. I'll call KK tomorrow but I might have to get a bolt and block it up.



I've been following this thread for a little while now because I'm tossing up between Guten 70L and Brewzilla 65L. Good to see the helix did the job for you. How liters of wort/trub was lost on dead space after filling your cubes?

I borrowed my mate's brewzilla 65L on the weekend and the overflow pipe is screwed into the bottom screen of the malt pipe. Seems a bit more solid than the welds.

Also, really curious about the Guten immersion chiller. Has anyone here used the immersion chiller that comes with the 70L Guten? Does it reach all the way to the bottom and would you be able to chill a single batch? The problem with the brewzilla 65 chiller is that it doesn't reach to the bottom and as a result you can't efficiently chill a single batch with it. The in and outlet also don't hang over the edge of the kettle so all together it's a stuff around trying to use the immersion chiller that comes with the brewzilla.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Bit of silicone tube inside the stem (original version) the bazooka over the top just have the top of the silicone tube peeking over the top of the wort, just in case. If you know where your level is each time it is easily adjusted, full volume mash is always the same level or there about's grain bill dependent.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Sjek said:


> How liters of wort/trub was lost on dead space after filling your cubes?


What you see in my previous pic is how much I left. Probably a litre or so after tilting it to make sure I filled the cube.
That was for a Dark Mild so not a lot of hop matter to filter out.



Sjek said:


> I borrowed my mate's brewzilla 65L on the weekend and the overflow pipe is screwed into the bottom screen of the malt pipe. Seems a bit more solid than the welds.


This pipe has a thread welded on the bottom with a nut on the other side of the screen.
I think the 65L zilla is the same as my old Robo Gen 2 where the thread is machined in to the pipe? Definitely a stronger solution.


----------



## lespaul

80% is insane! All I've ever got is a stuck sparge or 68%...


----------



## dibbz

Sjek said:


> Also, really curious about the Guten immersion chiller. Has anyone here used the immersion chiller that comes with the 70L Guten? Does it reach all the way to the bottom and would you be able to chill a single batch?



Checked mine it's about an inch off the bottom, might get closer with some water in it.. It's quite large I don't see why it wouldn't do the job.


----------



## bird

Due to postage issues I haven't received my replacement extendable overflow pipe and have been waiting to brew. So necessity being the mother of invention I started thinking of ways to make another overflow pipe. Had pulled apart of 50lt commercial keg recently and found that the spear from that with a couple of taps with a hammer fits perfectly over the collar of the broken extendable overflow pipe. It's not extendable but fills the hole in the bottom screen and doesn't brake when stirring the grain. works for now.


----------



## bird

Hey guys. My pump got blocked after last brew. I tried percarb and hot water. Running the hose through it and It still wouldn't pump water. Pulled it apart today and found a Couple of little pieces of Crap where the magnet is which must have jammed it. After putting it back together the pump works fine but I now have a vibration coming from the pump. If I lift the guten it stops but when sitting on the ground it vibrates. Has anyone had this before? Any idea what might be wrong. All screws seem to be tight. Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

bird said:


> Hey guys. My pump got blocked after last brew. I tried percarb and hot water. Running the hose through it and It still wouldn't pump water. Pulled it apart today and found a Couple of little pieces of Crap where the magnet is which must have jammed it. After putting it back together the pump works fine but I now have a vibration coming from the pump. If I lift the guten it stops but when sitting on the ground it vibrates. Has anyone had this before? Any idea what might be wrong. All screws seem to be tight. Thanks in advance for any advice.


Never heard of that, seems quite odd.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Is it just a wire vibrating against the body?


----------



## bird

Had another look inside and it was a loose screw on the pump. Only thing is I didn't touch that screw. Looks like the little nut on the bracket which the pump screws to was broken during construction and came loose when I moved the pump yesterday. Seems to be holding good for now. No vibration. Might have to get some other nuts to put on the screw so it doesn't happen again. Thanks for the help guys. Brew #5 this Saturday. Loving doing all grain and the guten is performing really well makes AG brewing relatively easy for a beginner.


----------



## bird

Spoke with kk today and supposedly the new overflow pipes are in for the 70lt guten.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Did they mention to you what has changed?
Mine is on the way but the guy I spoke to wasn't sure.


----------



## bird

No didn't ask. Will find out when it arrives.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I don't think I have ever stirred the mash in a Guten, I did a side by side with the Brau Meister a few years ago and the results were the same. Now in effect the BM stirs itself every 10 minutes of the mash with the pump rests, not sure if I stirred the Guten then but may have done. So today I did another ESB have been getting 1,040-1,042 pre boil, stirred the mash 4 or 5 times today didn't think it would make any difference with a full volume mash it is very fluid. Pre boil today is 1,048. Still using the same grain bill just different hops.
Do others stir the mash in the Guten?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I stir once mid mash (if I remember) but try to let everything settle at least 10 minutes before I lift the pipe.
I haven't noticed much of a difference.


----------



## bird

I stir every 10 to 15 minutes depending on what I'm up-to while brewing. I sparge as well but beersmith said I got 83% efficiency last brew. Have generally been getting around the 80% mark. Not sure where I read it but when I first got the guten someone had said that stirring regularly will increase your efficiency.


----------



## JDB

I have been stirring twice for the last few brews, has helped get mash efficiency up to 80% regularly. Even got 82% with 10kg in the 50l. A lot better then the last big brew I did with no stirring.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Cheers guys, looks like my efficiency has gone up as well, not saying it's gospel until I have done a few more brews. Just hard to get my head around it with it being such a fluid mash. Looking at the mash just looks like the grain is floating around, although thinking about it now that is probably just the husks.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> I stir once mid mash (if I remember) but try to let everything settle at least 10 minutes before I lift the pipe.
> I haven't noticed much of a difference.


A good idea to stop stirring at the end, I do mash out so stopping the stirring during mash out would get any bits and pieces back into the grain basket.


----------



## Grok

A simple Iodine test before and after you stir might tell you if its worthwhile.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Would it? Testing conversion doesn't necessarily show you extraction.


----------



## Grok

It would suggest if you still have starches to convert, you haven't finished mashing.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I don't believe that is related to stirring.
That's like saying you should iodine test before and after a sparge, because you might not have finished mashing. Makes no sense.
Both are ways to get already converted starches in to the liquor.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I do a 90 minute mash and I haven't used the iodine test for years, I agree with Fro-Daddy, I think the grain was converting, but the other factor is the no sparge. Had I sparged then could have been getting better efficiency. Any how I will see how I go with regular stirrings just to prove either way whether efficiency has improved.


----------



## PTG

Has anyone been successfully doing triple batches in the 70L version?
Im currently running the 40 but want to smash out multiple kegs of quaffers as well. 
Time to brew can be hard to find between work so when i get a chance need to be able to smash it.


----------



## bird

PTG said:


> Has anyone been successfully doing triple batches in the 70L version?
> Im currently running the 40 but want to smash out multiple kegs of quaffers as well.
> Time to brew can be hard to find between work so when i get a chance need to be able to smash it.


I've done 3 brews with 62lt into the fermenter with great success. 75% efficiency On the first brew and 80 plus on the second 2. I run 3 to 1 plus 9lt For the dead space under the malt pipe and then sparge While slowly lifting malt pipe with a whinch. About 5lt of boil off so there is just enough head space to not boil over approx 67lt before boil. Takes about 5hrs with clean up.


----------



## Grok

Fro-Daddy said:


> Both are ways to get already converted starches in to the liquor.


Provided your starches ARE converted. If your sparging, then you have decided to move onto the next process in the beer making chain due to time restraints or boredom or.....? 
But do you really know?
Have to ask the question then, why do the commercial brewers have mechanical stirrers?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Conversion and extraction are different.
Stirring will potentially help with extraction.
I doubt stirring would convert starches.


----------



## MHB

Grok said:


> Provided your starches ARE converted. If your sparging, then you have decided to move onto the next process in the beer making chain due to time restraints or boredom or.....?
> But do you really know?
> Have to ask the question then, why do the commercial brewers have mechanical stirrers?


Mostly to keep the temperature homogeneous. Most stirred mash tuns will have steam heated jackets, if you don't stir while applying heat the malt near the surfaces will get too hot, at a minimum giving inconsistent enzyme activity, at worst denaturing the enzymes near the heating surfaces.
Recirculating systems should not need to have the grist stirred, as the wort should be flowing over the elements too quickly for the enzymes to be damaged, it should then flow through the grain bed heating it (ideally evenly).

I would have a few concerns about some of the designs on the market, low cost elements tend to have high surface heats and can do horrendous damage to the enzymes. Compare the surface area/surface temperature of low cost recirculating systems with even a Braumeister or a commercial tun where the floor and the sides of the tun are heated. It matters and you do get what you pay for.
Very important to crack your grain so that the bed is very permeable, that will help speed up the flow of wort over the heating surfaces and through the grain.
Mark


----------



## Grok

So Mark, what info do you use to make your decision to end your mash and start the sparging process? time? iodine testing? what I did before worked? what everybody else does? or about nowish? or.........?



Fro-Daddy said:


> I doubt stirring would convert starches.


I never said stirring would convert starches, but if stirring helps release more starches for the enzymes to convert, that's gotta be a positive thing, yes? And if a simple and easy iodine test can help you make a decision about that, then that can't be any burden of knowledge to carry, surely!


----------



## MHB

Fair question.
Mostly taste, remember that I'm mostly making the same beer over and over and I taste the brew regularaly, you get a feel for where its at.
That said when developing a recipe yes check with Iodine (well a bit more complex than just Iodine, got a few other bits and pieces in there to make it easier to see how much blue it develops).
Probably wouldn't hurt to be a bit more religious about doing Iodine tests. A combination of tasting the mash regularly (its as much texture/mouthfeel as taste). Doing programed multi step infusions on a big Braumeister usually around 90 minutes in total adds up to the wort being the same every time.
Having taken several refract shots during the mash, knowing its on track and having done the same beer regularly - well haven't had a problem with a brew for a long time.
If you do get a Blue Brew (one with unconverted starch) you will know, it will foam like a demon all the way through the boil.
Mark


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Grok said:


> if stirring helps release more starches for the enzymes to convert


I think this is the difference in our view.
I believe that they will already be converted, and the stirring just releases it in to the liquor.
It sounds like you believe they need to be released and then converted.

Do you do iodine tests? I never have.


----------



## Grok

Fro-Daddy said:


> Do you do iodine tests? I never have.


Yes I do, especially make sure I do as I'm playing around with my water profile lately. The test is so easy, don't why you wouldn't!
I just ask myself this, if I'm getting an increase starch presence reading after a stir, my logic is saying there must be some more starch in there, am I missing something here?


----------



## Kenf

Grok said:


> Provided your starches ARE converted. If your sparging, then you have decided to move onto the next process in the beer making chain due to time restraints or boredom or.....?
> But do you really know?
> Have to ask the question then, why do the commercial brewers have mechanical stirrers?


Simple the volumes are far larger!


----------



## CyriusBrew

Well. I have learnt a valuable lesson today. Do not brew a really big beer on the 2nd attempt on new brew gear. That, and pay careful attention to whether the equipment got damaged in the last brew.
Apparently, my malt pipe is a wee bit out of round, as the last brew day it fell off of the stand whilst drying...I did not notice it being off. Maybe it was the falling, or maybe it was from lifting. IDK. Nevertheless, when putting the screens in today, I saw they were a bit harder to get in. I pressed ahead with the brew....
WHilst mashing, the recirc got stuck. I thought I sorted it by stopping the pump, but it seems like it was still stuck, and mash temps went all over the place. So, I started to drain as best I could and put the wort into a cooler. then started a sparged and stirred it.
After that eventually seemed to work, I put the previous wort back into the malt pipe and had to keep loosening the mash for it to drain. (Which it is doing now)

After this brew, I need to figure ways to stop this stuff from happening again. I have not had a stuck sparge in the past 8 years in my 3 vessel.


----------



## Grok

Try malt conditioning, it works a treat!
Also check your water profile, if your down on some of your essential salts, that also has an effect on gum levels I've found.


----------



## CyriusBrew

I am thinking I may need to make some mods to my Guten. Perhaps a permanent steel rod where the handle fits. That would make it safer to handle, and perhaps make the malt pipe a bit more sturdy / warp resistant.
I am also thinking some kind of false bottom or more sturdy bottom steel mesh filter would be nice for it. Time to start googling
..


----------



## goatchop41

CyriusBrew said:


> I am thinking I may need to make some mods to my Guten. Perhaps a permanent steel rod where the handle fits. That would make it safer to handle, and perhaps make the malt pipe a bit more sturdy / warp resistant.
> I am also thinking some kind of false bottom or more sturdy bottom steel mesh filter would be nice for it. Time to start googling
> ..


These have absolutely no bearing on your issues that you mentioned above though. Those issues are purely down to crush size, grain bill, mash thickness and timing of using the pump


----------



## CyriusBrew

goatchop41 said:


> These have absolutely no bearing on your issues that you mentioned above though. Those issues are purely down to crush size, grain bill, mash thickness and timing of using the pump



Most definately, I agree! I am just noticing that I would have had an easier time getting the top screen off if the malt pipe was not somewhat warped. I reckon the steel trod will prevent warpage a bit, and give me something to hook a pulley up to. I also reckon a false bottom would give me somewhat better filtration at the bottom... an cover me in case I bend the lower screen on accident.

I should not mix issues in the same comment.

The mash was very thick. It was a very big beer. The crush was my usual crush, and was not wheat. I did have 50g of roasted barley, but would be surprised if that caused it. Perhaps more water would have helped. I only had 27.5 liters in a grain bill of 10.460kg, as I was saving water to sparge with. It was obviously too thick for this setup.

It was a hell of a day. I was aiming for 1.099, and only got to 1.082, and that was after a lot of boiling. so far a 9 hour brew day including cleanup. (I am still cleaning.) We live and learn.


----------



## goatchop41

CyriusBrew said:


> The mash was very thick. It was a very big beer. The crush was my usual crush, and was not wheat. I did have 50g of roasted barley, but would be surprised if that caused it. Perhaps more water would have helped. I only had 27.5 liters in a grain bill of 10.460kg, as I was saving water to sparge with. It was obviously too thick for this setup.



Yeah, that would have been an incredibly thick mash, given that you would have been at or below 2L/kg, accounting for the deadspace...

If you haven't heard of it (and if it hasn't been mentioned to you elsewhere), look in to 'reiterated mashing' for your next attempt at high gravity brewing - it is the perfect way of getting high gravity wort with good efficiency on these systems


----------



## CyriusBrew

goatchop41 said:


> Yeah, that would have been an incredibly thick mash, given that you would have been at or below 2L/kg, accounting for the deadspace...
> 
> If you haven't heard of it (and if it hasn't been mentioned to you elsewhere), look in to 'reiterated mashing' for your next attempt at high gravity brewing - it is the perfect way of getting high gravity wort with good efficiency on these systems



Brilliant! Thank you for the advice! I never had to go that route before as my cooler mash tun is so large. Granted, it would have been filled to the brim on this recipe!
Thanks for the help! I will try that after I find a place to get a new malt pipe and top screen.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> I am thinking I may need to make some mods to my Guten. Perhaps a permanent steel rod where the handle fits. That would make it safer to handle, and perhaps make the malt pipe a bit more sturdy / warp resistant.
> I am also thinking some kind of false bottom or more sturdy bottom steel mesh filter would be nice for it. Time to start googling
> ..


I don't see the need for a top filter, as for a better handle on the malt pipe just a piece of 5/16" all thread and 4 nuts will be ample.


----------



## bird

I only put My top screen on to sparge. Helps to keep the grain bed flat and sparge water evenly spread I find.


----------



## ozdevil

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't see the need for a top filter, as for a better handle on the malt pipe just a piece of 5/16" all thread and 4 nuts will be ample.
> View attachment 118132



looking at the handle there , but the pic maybe decieving my eyes but the 5/16 thread that you have used looks pretty close to the top of the grainbed and with that wort trying to pick malt pipe out you maybe going to burn a few knuckles if not wearing sanitary heat proof gloves..

but i like the idea thou


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ozdevil said:


> looking at the handle there , but the pic maybe decieving my eyes but the 5/16 thread that you have used looks pretty close to the top of the grainbed and with that wort trying to pick malt pipe out you maybe going to burn a few knuckles if not wearing sanitary heat proof gloves..
> 
> but i like the idea thou


If you have done as much welding as I have a bit of hot wort isn't going to hurt.


----------



## CyriusBrew

On a 50L Guten, how big of a beer do you guys reckon I can get away with on a 23L batch without doing the reiterated mashing, but still avoiding a stuck sparge? (assuming normal grains and no wheat) Could I still get away with big beers if I use rice or oat hulls in it?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> On a 50L Guten, how big of a beer do you guys reckon I can get away with on a 23L batch without doing the reiterated mashing, but still avoiding a stuck sparge? (assuming normal grains and no wheat) Could I still get away with big beers if I use rice or oat hulls in it?


I got the 50 litre to do just that make a bigger beer, I haven't done so yet, but I will. Really been considering a Baltic porter, (Schwarzbier) 21 litres, I think it will be OK. I will be hopefully doing a full volume mash see how it looks when I load it into the Brewers Friend.


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> I got the 50 litre to do just that make a bigger beer, I haven't done so yet, but I will. Really been considering a Baltic porter, (Schwarzbier) 21 litres, I think it will be OK. I will be hopefully doing a full volume mash see how it looks when I load it into the Brewers Friend.



I plan to try the bigger beer again. I reckon I will follow your lead on not using the top screen. With this, I can stir the mash to unstick it. I will probably also add some oat hulls to decrease the likelihood of it sticking as well. I have also picked up a bazooka screen to go on top of the pipe like you have, so that I have less concern about the wort flowing back down the tube. I will also have more water in the mash, and if my numbers are off because of it, I will just boil longer.
One hopes this will be enough to avoid a tragedy like last Sunday.


----------



## CyriusBrew

Have any of you finished setting up a beersmith profile for the Guten 50L yet? If so, would you mind sharing the profile info with me? I would really help me dial this thing in.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@CEO Keg King has there been any progress on a jacket for the 70L?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> Have any of you finished setting up a beersmith profile for the Guten 50L yet? If so, would you mind sharing the profile info with me? I would really help me dial this thing in.


I was reading on another forum that Guten didn't show up but Klarstein/Hop Cat/Brew Devil did that was on Brewers Friend could be the same on Beersmith haven't checked.


----------



## CKK

Fro-Daddy said:


> @CEO Keg King has there been any progress on a jacket for the 70L?


Just ordered them and maybe about6-8 weeks away.


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was reading on another forum that Guten didn't show up but Klarstein/Hop Cat/Brew Devil did that was on Brewers Friend could be the same on Beersmith haven't checked.



Thank you for the guidance Weal! Learning those other names was very helpful.

I found a facebook posting with the specs, but on Reddit, someone posted links to the actual profile. I am installing it now, and will see how accurate it is with my recipe. They call the Guten, the Brewdevil. Here are the links for anyone needing a Beersmith profilefor it: Guten 50L and Guten 30L


----------



## CyriusBrew

Hi guys...

I am in the middle of attempt#2 at a big brew on my new Guten. I have like 7.6kg of gains in it, and in the end hoping for 23 liters of wort. I started at dough in with 25 liters.

One thing that I am noticing is that temperature seems to be all over the place. I heated the water to 67c, put my grains in, stirred them up, and it jumped to over 71c...I figured I will let it settle, but it just kept creeping up. So, I added 3 liters of cold water, which brought it down a weebit, even with a lot of stirring.
With the pump open all the way and stirring, it dropped to around 63.

Do you guys notice temperature control issues like this? Could this be related to poor recirc since I have so much mash in their? My dough in was a 3:1 ratio, so I thought it should be fine.

My next beer will just be one of my session beers, so I can see if this only happens when there is so much grain in there.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I found that mine fluctuates if I set the power too high.
When I set it at 1000w I don't get fluctuations.


----------



## dibbz

The temp will stablise by itself. If it says 71c the element wont be on, it just needs to recirc, make sure you have good flow down the overflow to keep it circulating over the element. I'd go 1200w power on the mash, the old grainfather with the mash switch was 500w i think, for comparison.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> Hi guys...
> 
> I am in the middle of attempt#2 at a big brew on my new Guten. I have like 7.6kg of gains in it, and in the end hoping for 23 liters of wort. I started at dough in with 25 liters.
> 
> One thing that I am noticing is that temperature seems to be all over the place. I heated the water to 67c, put my grains in, stirred them up, and it jumped to over 71c...I figured I will let it settle, but it just kept creeping up. So, I added 3 liters of cold water, which brought it down a weebit, even with a lot of stirring.
> With the pump open all the way and stirring, it dropped to around 63.
> 
> Do you guys notice temperature control issues like this? Could this be related to poor recirc since I have so much mash in their? My dough in was a 3:1 ratio, so I thought it should be fine.
> 
> My next beer will just be one of my session beers, so I can see if this only happens when there is so much grain in there.


The temperature you are reading is the temperature next to the element, I am stirring my grains regularly, contrary to dibbz I put my return flow on around half choke so the returning liquor is not going down the overflow tube but through the grain bed, the idea being more sugar being washed out of the grain.

As you have a new Guten did you calibrate the temperature on the screen with temperature taken in the vicinity of the probe?


----------



## CyriusBrew

Fro-Daddy said:


> I found that mine fluctuates if I set the power too high.
> When I set it at 1000w I don't get fluctuations.



I thought this may be the case, so I ran it at 800w. However, the temps were spiking to above 72c.



wide eyed and legless said:


> .....
> As you have a new Guten did you calibrate the temperature on the screen with temperature taken in the vicinity of the probe?



Great question...No. I have not done any calibrations. I guess I just acted like an Apple fanboi and expected it to just work  I did however, use a thermometer occasionally in the grain to check the temperature, and it seemed to vary widely on whether I stirred or not. I am thinking the issue is with doing big beers with a fine crush, as when I drained at the end, the helix coil clogged, so I had to use an easy siphon. (Yes, I did use the hop spider, and had koppaflock in the kettle.)
I can also say that the profile I downloaded from Beersmith has the wrong boil off rate though, as I reckon they were calibrated for using the full 3kw.
I can deal with these niggly things whilst I dial in the gear and get used to it. However, I really hate getting the crust of caramalised sugar where the elements are. I have to soak it for quite a long time with PBW at 60c to loosen it.

Assuming I can get the caramelised sugar off tonight, I will brew another beer on Sunday that is a bit more sessionable to verify my assumptions.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> I thought this may be the case, so I ran it at 800w. However, the temps were spiking to above 72c.
> 
> 
> 
> Great question...No. I have not done any calibrations. I guess I just acted like an Apple fanboi and expected it to just work  I did however, use a thermometer occasionally in the grain to check the temperature, and it seemed to vary widely on whether I stirred or not. I am thinking the issue is with doing big beers with a fine crush, as when I drained at the end, the helix coil clogged, so I had to use an easy siphon. (Yes, I did use the hop spider, and had koppaflock in the kettle.)
> I can also say that the profile I downloaded from Beersmith has the wrong boil off rate though, as I reckon they were calibrated for using the full 3kw.
> I can deal with these niggly things whilst I dial in the gear and get used to it. However, I really hate getting the crust of caramalised sugar where the elements are. I have to soak it for quite a long time with PBW at 60c to loosen it.
> 
> Assuming I can get the caramelised sugar off tonight, I will brew another beer on Sunday that is a bit more sessionable to verify my assumptions.


It would be wise to calibrate the temperature, no good doing it in the grain, the temperatures will be all over the place like a mad woman's shit.
Follow the instructions in the manual.


----------



## Ballaratguy

CyriusBrew said:


> I thought this may be the case, so I ran it at 800w. However, the temps were spiking to above 72c.
> 
> 
> 
> Great question...No. I have not done any calibrations. I guess I just acted like an Apple fanboi and expected it to just work  I did however, use a thermometer occasionally in the grain to check the temperature, and it seemed to vary widely on whether I stirred or not. I am thinking the issue is with doing big beers with a fine crush, as when I drained at the end, the helix coil clogged, so I had to use an easy siphon. (Yes, I did use the hop spider, and had koppaflock in the kettle.)
> I can also say that the profile I downloaded from Beersmith has the wrong boil off rate though, as I reckon they were calibrated for using the full 3kw.
> I can deal with these niggly things whilst I dial in the gear and get used to it. However, I really hate getting the crust of caramalised sugar where the elements are. I have to soak it for quite a long time with PBW at 60c to loosen it.
> 
> Assuming I can get the caramelised sugar off tonight, I will brew another beer on Sunday that is a bit more sessionable to verify my assumptions.


For the crust on top of the element I use a non scratch scourer with vinegar gets it off with a bit of elbow grease (Don’t forget to give a good rinse) but I have noticed that it comes back a bit once dry


----------



## CyriusBrew

[


Ballaratguy said:


> For the crust on top of the element I use a non scratch scourer with vinegar gets it off with a bit of elbow grease (Don’t forget to give a good rinse) but I have noticed that it comes back a bit once dry



I think I got it all out tonight with PBWash, but it is so dark now, that I am not sure. I will definitely keep this idea in mind, as it could probably save me a lot of heartache in the future!



wide eyed and legless said:


> It would be wise to calibrate the temperature, no good doing it in the grain, the temperatures will be all over the place like a mad woman's shit.
> Follow the instructions in the manual.



Fair call. I did not calibrate the temperature, because in the manual it was not listed as a step to perform in auto mode , or manual mode. Nevertheless, there is a small section to say how to do it. This is good advice Weal, thank you.

Now that I read the manual again, I also notice that it says not to run the pump during the boil. However, like people I have seen on youtube, I have been doing so for the last 15 minutes, and during the chill for recirculating.

Have you guys noticed any problems in doing this? I am thinking I will have to stop doing it, and stir manually whilst chilling, or hook up my March pump.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The pump has an operating temperature of 80 C


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> The pump has an operating temperature of 80 C



Well that answers that! I guess there will be no recirculating to chill! (Unless I bring the march pump into the mix)

Cheers!


----------



## Meddo

wide eyed and legless said:


> The pump has an operating temperature of 80 C


Is it one of the MP pumps in the Guten?


----------



## dibbz

Been using my counterflow and whirlpool arm post boil a lot in the 50 now the 70 with no issues.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Meddo said:


> Is it one of the MP pumps in the Guten?


Yes Kaixin MP 10 RN, its in the Guten manual not to run the pump over 80 C I did email Kaixin and asked about a higher temperature rated pump and the do have models same specs higher rating, how many hundreds was I after.


----------



## Meddo

Ha, yeah I'm surprised that the high temp version wasn't specced in the first place. Can't imagine it'd be more than a few dollars extra for those little ones.

I'm pretty sure you could find one cheap on AliExpress in lots of one.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Meddo said:


> Ha, yeah I'm surprised that the high temp version wasn't specced in the first place. Can't imagine it'd be more than a few dollars extra for those little ones.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you could find one cheap on AliExpress in lots of one.


I have seen the MP10 RN on AliExpress but it wasn't so cheap, I tried whirlpooling the pump just got blocked so I just swirl the immersion chiller around occasionally. Probably wasn't specced initially as the whirlpool arm came after.
I think it could be gotten away with, doesn't take long for the temperature to drop to 80 C it would just be prolonged running in boiling wort that could distort the housing of the pump.


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have seen the MP10 RN on AliExpress but it wasn't so cheap, I tried whirlpooling the pump just got blocked so I just swirl the immersion chiller around occasionally. Probably wasn't specced initially as the whirlpool arm came after.
> I think it could be gotten away with, doesn't take long for the temperature to drop to 80 C it would just be prolonged running in boiling wort that could distort the housing of the pump.



I would be concerned that if one waits until the temp is below 80 to whirlpool, that there is a chace of infection. (Not likely, but certainly possible)

Is the MP10 RN the same size? would it just be a bolt in replacement? I wonder what thread is right, BSP or NPT. The cost does not seem to be huge, but the shipping is a killer.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> I would be concerned that if one waits until the temp is below 80 to whirlpool, that there is a chace of infection. (Not likely, but certainly possible)
> 
> Is the MP10 RN the same size? would it just be a bolt in replacement? I wonder what thread is right, BSP or NPT. The cost does not seem to be huge, but the shipping is a killer.


I wouldn't be overly worried, after putting the immersion chiller in, and getting that going switch the pump on you will be almost at 80 by then. 
MP10 RN will fit perfectly, that's what you have now. Or should have.


----------



## CyriusBrew

I went ahead and ordered this one. It has a stainless steel head, so I reckon it should be able to handle the boil? If not, I can always just move it to my 3 vessel and make up a hermes sort of thing








US $39.0 |Home brew Pump 220V Magnetic Drive Pump MP 15RM With Stainless Steel Head|brewing pump|magnetic drive pumphome brew pump - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




www.aliexpress.com


----------



## Meddo

The mp15 is twice as big physically as the mp10, I suspect you'll struggle to squeeze it in without moving the mount point and redoing the plumbing. Good pump though and will certainly handle the boil.


----------



## CyriusBrew

Meddo said:


> The mp15 is twice as big physically as the mp10, I suspect you'll struggle to squeeze it in without moving the mount point and redoing the plumbing. Good pump though and will certainly handle the boil.


Oh wow..you are right!
Well. The way I see it is that I can always replumb the thing if I need to, and this would be good for a hermes thing. Right now I only have 1 march pump, and I could possibly make the guten act like a part of a hermes setup if I felt like it. 
I will be doing the calibrating that WEAL recommended later this week. I still need to learn how to use this thing and keep stable temps.


----------



## CyriusBrew

Today I am brewing a smaller beer, with only a target of 1.062 FG. I also chose to treat it like a typical BIAB with no sparge. The Guten seems to really like a thin mash. The temps were fairly stable, and I stirred every 10 mins or so.
Now to wait and see what kind of efficiency I get 
What efficiency do you folks tend to get with no sparge on the Guten?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> Today I am brewing a smaller beer, with only a target of 1.062 FG. I also chose to treat it like a typical BIAB with no sparge. The Guten seems to really like a thin mash. The temps were fairly stable, and I stirred every 10 mins or so.
> Now to wait and see what kind of efficiency I get
> What efficiency do you folks tend to get with no sparge on the Guten?


My last brew just the other day I stirred every 10 -15 minutes now closer to 65%, it was a 90 minute mash and 20 minute mash out. Stirring definitely makes a difference it has on my last three brews anyhow.


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> My last brew just the other day I stirred every 10 -15 minutes now closer to 65%, it was a 90 minute mash and 20 minute mash out. Stirring definitely makes a difference it has on my last three brews anyhow.



That is a reasonable efficiency. I actually did not raise the temp for the mash out either. I should have done that. I would have gotten a bit higher if I did. Right now, it is looking like 57.2. I won't hit my numbers, but I reckon it will still be tasty, assuming I hit 1.045 after the boil


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I do double batches with minimal sparging (full volume doesn't always fit) and I generally get around 70%.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> I do double batches with minimal sparging (full volume doesn't always fit) and I generally get around 70%.


What OG are you aiming for?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

The oatmeal stout I did last was 1.053.
The biggest I've done so far on this system is 1.057.


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> What OG are you aiming for?



I am aiming for 1.062 FG. I can always add some sugar / dextrose


----------



## wide eyed and legless

CyriusBrew said:


> I am aiming for 1.062 FG. I can always add some sugar / dextrose


Sorry my mistake I saw your gravity figure in the earlier post I was asking Fro-Daddy.


----------



## CyriusBrew

Fro-Daddy said:


> I do double batches with minimal sparging (full volume doesn't always fit) and I generally get around 70%.



Are you just heating a 1 liter kettle to sparge? What are your mill settings? 70% is pretty darn good I reckon.


----------



## CyriusBrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> Sorry my mistake I saw your gravity figure in the earlier post I was asking Fro-Daddy.


Actually, my mistake! sorry!


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I put all my water in the kettle, heat to a few degrees above desired temp, complete water treatment and then take out what won't fit and put it in a cube.
This can be up to 10L but is generally less than that.
The 70L Guten can take about 60L in the mash without getting messy or awkward to manage.

My last batch I had to use a mates mill because mine was being poo, MashMaster Mini with fluted rollers, no idea on the gap sorry.
I've now bought a new mill so it might take a batch or two to get it where I like.


----------



## bird

I've just done my 4th triple batch it the 70lt and consistently get 80percent. I do a big sparge though of about 35lts from a hlt. I am finding it a bit stressful doing the boil with 67lts in the guten though as it leaves very little head space and was wondering if it would be OK to leave out 5lts from the sparge and boil 62lts of wort and then add 5lts of boiling water After the boil to get me to my final volume thus giving me the extra head space during the boil To avoid any possible boil overs. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You could do that or try a cap full of distilling conditioner.


----------



## bird

Will give it a try and see If it affects efficiency otherwise I'll give the conditioner a go. Thanks


----------



## JDB

bird said:


> I've just done my 4th triple batch it the 70lt and consistently get 80percent. I do a big sparge though of about 35lts from a hlt. I am finding it a bit stressful doing the boil with 67lts in the guten though as it leaves very little head space and was wondering if it would be OK to leave out 5lts from the sparge and boil 62lts of wort and then add 5lts of boiling water After the boil to get me to my final volume thus giving me the extra head space during the boil To avoid any possible boil overs. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks


I’ve even decanted our 10l into a cube before it hits boil and reintroduced once the initial boil surge is over. Especially when I’m trying to get 44 l Out of my 50l unit. Seems to work just fine


----------



## dibbz

Withhold a few liters from the sparge, or just go 2 handed with a spray bottle and paddle to keep it under control for the first 5 min.


----------



## PTG

I get between 80% and 85% mash eff all the time. Don’t stir the bed and make sure pump is turned down not to flow down O/flow pipe. OG’s are usually around 1.050 and only sparge with 5L to rinse the bed otherwise treat it as BIAB. Thats on a 40L looking at getting the 70L as im wanting to fill more kegs as brew days are hard to find. 
I assumed i was entering (Beersmith) data incorrectly and have checked many times all looks good.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

PTG said:


> I get between 80% and 85% mash eff all the time. Don’t stir the bed and make sure pump is turned down not to flow down O/flow pipe. OG’s are usually around 1.050 and only sparge with 5L to rinse the bed otherwise treat it as BIAB. Thats on a 40L looking at getting the 70L as im wanting to fill more kegs as brew days are hard to find.
> I assumed i was entering (Beersmith) data incorrectly and have checked many times all looks good.


I have stirred the last few brews now and efficiency has increased, I do full volume no sparge, my next brew will be minus the overflow pipe, its a bit like an appendix never gets used just sits there.
I did see on the German site Hobby Brauer a guy who had fitted a motor/gearbox over the top of his mash tun with a rake, though I do like to fiddle with things like that I will probably just stick with the paddle.


----------



## Grok

Did a brew the other day, all was going well when suddenly lights out in the Guten on ramp up to boil at about 85C, no warning, just complete lights out, no power to controller or pump.....WTF !...... so back up plan enacted, grabbed my newly acquired hang over the side bucket immersion heater, and plumbed in a spare 240v pump to circulate from the digiboil to the Guten, as I essentially run 2 kettles for bigger volumes, and got things back on track, not ideal, but saved the day, well worth the investment as a back up tool, and handy anyway.





After investigation, it turns out there is a sneaky little inline thermal fuse rated at 227 degrees Celsius 10 amp on the main power wire hiding under some white heat shielding wrap from the thermal cut-out button to the main power switch, that also supplies the pump switch power, and this had failed cutting all the power coming in.



Now I carefully inspected every thing in this compartment, and could not see any evidence of excessively high temps, so my conclusion is it just failed, not sure why they have it as the thermal cut-out disc in the same area is rated at about 150C would probably be adequate.


I have replaced this wire with a decent thick gauge wire (Brown wire) and no thermal fuse and all is good again, but bringing this incident to everyone's attention so as to preempt a future WTF ! moment half way through a brew. I had a plan C as well, gas burner with an old keg kettle that I use as a sparge tank with the bucket heater and a cheap thermostat arrangement, like the Inkbird, but cheaper.

I always like a back up plan or two, and this strategy paid off to get me through the day, something to think about!


----------



## Fro-Daddy

CEO Keg King said:


> Just ordered them and maybe about6-8 weeks away.


Hi, how are these jackets coming along?

edit: Guten 70L jackets, referring to your post from 6 weeks ago


----------



## goatchop41

Fro-Daddy said:


> Hi, how are these jackets coming along?
> 
> edit: Guten 70L jackets, referring to your post from 6 weeks ago



I enquired about 40L jackets earlier in the week - they didn't give me any sort of definitive answer, and sort of said that it might be another 4-8 weeks


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@CEO Keg King @Keg King Can you please let me know how the 70L jackets are going?


----------



## dibbz

Is it just my 70L lid that doesn't quite fit, or is it all of them?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@dibbz Do you have the gasket in the lid? I've only used mine once but it seemed fine.


----------



## Twent

I'm thinking about a upgrade, what is a 50l Guten with 40l HLT worth?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Twent said:


> I'm thinking about a upgrade, what is a 50l Guten with 40l HLT worth?


Not sure on the price of the 50 L but they are selling some cheap boilers at the moment for $99, 30 litre re-worked Robobrew 1, you may be able to cut a better deal for the two.


----------



## dibbz

@Fro-Daddy Yes, my lid is smaller than the urn part, so you can't seal it without one end popping up, which is critical for its other use.


----------



## argon

After a fairly lengthy hiatus I stumbled on this thread and picked up a 30L system a couple of weeks back. Figured I don't need my double batch 3V anymore as I just don't get through the volume. I'll part that out and sell soon.

Working from home more these days, so able to have brew days going on in the background. These all in ones make brewdays so much easier... much more hands off which suits me. Loving being able to clean and pack it all away underbench.

First brew last week a simple Bitter. Missed my numbers only due to a poor grain crush, so spent this week building a new hopper for my mm2. Got very clear wort into the fermenter after modifying the pickup to an SS elbow facing down against the base. Haven't bothered with the bazooka.








Second brew day on the system today 6.3% ESB. Crush was way better. Hit pre boil OG. Mid boil now.


----------



## JDW81

Great to see you back and contributing again Argon!


----------



## CKK

Grok said:


> Did a brew the other day, all was going well when suddenly lights out in the Guten on ramp up to boil at about 85C, no warning, just complete lights out, no power to controller or pump.....WTF !...... so back up plan enacted, grabbed my newly acquired hang over the side bucket immersion heater, and plumbed in a spare 240v pump to circulate from the digiboil to the Guten, as I essentially run 2 kettles for bigger volumes, and got things back on track, not ideal, but saved the day, well worth the investment as a back up tool, and handy anyway.
> View attachment 118402
> View attachment 118403
> 
> 
> After investigation, it turns out there is a sneaky little inline thermal fuse rated at 227 degrees Celsius 10 amp on the main power wire hiding under some white heat shielding wrap from the thermal cut-out button to the main power switch, that also supplies the pump switch power, and this had failed cutting all the power coming in.
> View attachment 118404
> View attachment 118405
> 
> Now I carefully inspected every thing in this compartment, and could not see any evidence of excessively high temps, so my conclusion is it just failed, not sure why they have it as the thermal cut-out disc in the same area is rated at about 150C would probably be adequate.
> View attachment 118406
> 
> I have replaced this wire with a decent thick gauge wire (Brown wire) and no thermal fuse and all is good again, but bringing this incident to everyone's attention so as to preempt a future WTF ! moment half way through a brew. I had a plan C as well, gas burner with an old keg kettle that I use as a sparge tank with the bucket heater and a cheap thermostat arrangement, like the Inkbird, but cheaper.
> 
> I always like a back up plan or two, and this strategy paid off to get me through the day, something to think about!


Just saw your post on this. That thermal fuse is an important part of making the equipment safe. It can be that you got a faulty one but to be on the safe side suggest it be replaced. Send me a PM and I will arrange to send a spare to you. Best we do the right thing. This is a backup to the bimetallic cutout switch in case that should ever fail to open when the kettle boils dry. Have seen a bit of this when people have dry mashes as the pump can easily suck the bottom dry. Best to throttle the pump back in this situation.


----------



## goatchop41

argon said:


> Got very clear wort into the fermenter after modifying the pickup to an SS elbow facing down against the base. Haven't bothered with the bazooka.



I've been thinking about ditching the helix from my setup and just using the SS elbow that I have in this manner. How far from the base does your elbow sit? Care to share a pic?


----------



## argon

Yeah here you go. may be 2 to 3mm off the base. Losses including trub end up being 1.5L. Still trying to get the whirpool and trub cone a little better though.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@argon do you chill or no chill?


----------



## argon

I've been using the stainless immersion chiller and have the pump on running over the chiller. Get to pitching temps in about 20-30 mins. Have a plate chiller also but quite like the immersion as it's easier to keep clean. I could run both but it would go against my desire to simplify things.


----------



## Grok

CEO Keg King said:


> Just saw your post on this. That thermal fuse is an important part of making the equipment safe. It can be that you got a faulty one but to be on the safe side suggest it be replaced. Send me a PM and I will arrange to send a spare to you. Best we do the right thing. This is a backup to the bimetallic cutout switch in case that should ever fail to open when the kettle boils dry. Have seen a bit of this when people have dry mashes as the pump can easily suck the bottom dry. Best to throttle the pump back in this situation.


Thank you for your concern and offer, but I am electrically savy and understand what I have done. I have done a current draw test and see that it draws 11amps, a little over the specs of that fuse, probably why it failed. Best not to run the components at full capacity all the time, IMO it should have been a 15amp fuse, if you want to supply me with an upgraded fuse, happy to accept.


----------



## CKK

Grok said:


> Thank you for your concern and offer, but I am electrically savy and understand what I have done. I have done a current draw test and see that it draws 11amps, a little over the specs of that fuse, probably why it failed. Best not to run the components at full capacity all the time, IMO it should have been a 15amp fuse, if you want to supply me with an upgraded fuse, happy to accept.


Let me look into this a bit more if you say it was a 10 amp fuse on I take it a 15 amp unit. Do you still have the item so we can take a look at it? Yes I will provide you with a replacement of course. Being an electronic engineer myself I find myself in agreement with what you suggest. Luckily its not difficult to replace.


----------



## Grok

CEO Keg King said:


> Let me look into this a bit more if you say it was a 10 amp fuse on I take it a 15 amp unit. Do you still have the item so we can take a look at it? Yes I will provide you with a replacement of course. Being an electronic engineer myself I find myself in agreement with what you suggest. Luckily its not difficult to replace.


Well, once again thanks for the offer, but this is not your responsibility as I didn't buy the item from you or anybody in Aus, I got it direct from the manufacturer some time ago before the Guten brand became available in Australia, that's why you don't see any brand name on it, and I have done modifications to the wiring and PCB etc, so it definitely isn't your responsibility. 
For your info though, it came with a 10amp cord and the max power setting is 2500w, current draw is 11amps with all elements and pump on. IMO, some of the internal wirings were a bit on the lean side and Neutral distribution could have been better (see my previous posts), but overall a reasonably robust unit. 
I will probably acquire a 15amp thermal fuse and install as per original arrangement anyway, but as this unit is never left alone when used, I don't see it as a high priority atm. You might want to check your units though to see what thermal fuses you have been supplied with for your own peace of mind.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@CEO Keg King @Keg King Can you please let me know how the 70L jackets are going?


----------



## CKK

Fro-Daddy said:


> @CEO Keg King @Keg King Can you please let me know how the 70L jackets are going?


Trying to find out where they are at but still no news I am sorry.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Minus the overflow pipe, and full volume mash for the last few brews has worked well, easy to stir every 15 mins, and keeping the non fermentables out of the mash until the last 20 mins leaves that bit of extra room until the grain absorbs the wort.


----------



## Grok

wide eyed and legless said:


> keeping the non fermentables out of the mash until the last 20 mins


I have a brewing friend who has been brewing 50 odd years and he reckons to put them in the kettle (hop spider or bag) about 20mins before flame out to impart a nice rich flavour. I have only just started doing it last few batches and they haven't come through for drinking yet so I can't really report about it, but it would be interesting to get some comments on that method!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have been doing it for a while now since I read Gordon Strong's book. Here is his explanation.
*Traditional Mash*
In this approach, the dark grains are milled and mashed along with the rest of the grains in the grist. This approach can lead to harsher, more astringent flavors in the finished beer, especially if the water being used is very alkaline, high in bicarbonates, or has a relatively high pH. Using dark grains in a traditional mash exposes the grains to the highest amount of heat for the longest amount of time, and so is most likely to produce a harsher, more astringent character in the finished beer.

*Adding at Vorlauf*
The vorlauf is the recirculated wort typically drawn at the start of the sparge — usually the first few quarts of runoff for a homebrewer. These first runnings are then recirculated back to the top of the grain bed. Using this approach, the dark grains are not added during the mash, but rather are added at mash-out. The advantage of this method is that it avoids the long hot steep of the mash, and the dark wort from the vorlauf is recirculated through the mash tun again further reducing astringency.

I have just made this Irish Foreign Extra Stout from Gordon Strong.

*Irish Extra Stout
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.059 FG = 1.014
IBU = 40 SRM = 50 ABV = 6%*

_This recipe is not necessarily a clone recipe of O’Hara’s Leann Folláin, however it is based on information I gleaned from Carlow Brewing Co.’s Head Brewer Conor Donoghue and is at least similar. Many Irish extra stouts use anywhere from 7–15% roasted grains, however this recipe skips using any roasted barley or black patent and instead uses a higher percentage of chocolate malt. I have found that the higher percentage really does give it a deep roasted character._

*Ingredients*

8 lbs. (3.6 kg) UK Golden Promise malt
2 lbs. (0.91 kg) flaked barley
8 oz. (227 g) torrified wheat
1.75 lbs. (0.79 kg) UK chocolate malt (425 °L)
8 oz. (227 g) UK brown malt
6 AAU UK Northdown hops (90 min.)
(0.75 oz./21 g at 8% alpha acids)
4.5 AAU UK Fuggle hops (30 min.)
(1 oz./28 g at 4.5% alpha acids)
0.5 oz. (14 g) UK Fuggle hops (5 min.)
Wyeast 1084 (Irish Ale) or White Labs WLP004 (Irish Ale) yeast
3⁄4 cup corn sugar (if priming)

*Step by Step*

Two or three days before brew day, make a 1-qt. (1-L) yeast starter, aerating the wort thoroughly (preferably with oxygen) before pitching the yeast.

On brew day, prepare your ingredients; mill the grain, measure your hops, and prepare your water. This recipe uses reverse osmosis (RO) water. Add 1⁄4 tsp. 10% phosphoric acid per 5 gallons (19 L) of brewing water, or until water measures pH 5.5 at room temperature. Add 1 tsp. calcium chloride (CaCl2) to the mash.

On brew day, mash in the Golden Promise, flaked barley, and torrified wheat at 147 °F (64 °C) in 15 qts. (14 L) of water, and hold this temperature for 60 minutes. Infuse with boiling water or direct heating to reach 155 °F (68 °C); hold this temperature for 30 minutes. Raise the temperature by infusion or direct heating to 168 °F (76 °C) to mashout. Add the chocolate and brown malts, and recirculate for 20 minutes. Fly sparge with 168 °F (76 °C) water until 7 gallons (26.5 L) of wort is collected.

Boil the wort for 120 minutes, adding the hops at times indicated in the recipe.

Chill to 66 °F (19 °C). Oxygenate, then pitch the yeast starter. Ferment at 68 °F (20 °C) until fermentation is complete. Rack the beer. Prime and bottle condition, or keg and force carbonate to 2.3 volumes.

Pretty sure if I remember right I think he said it is a German method of adding the darker grains towards the end of mash out.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

When adding dark grain late, how do you calculate the mash pH?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> When adding dark grain late, how do you calculate the mash pH?


If you are using Brewers Friend tick the late addition box.


----------



## Grok

What I'm talking about is 20mins before end of boil for unfermentable materials, like a late hop addition.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Grok said:


> What I'm talking about is 20mins before end of boil for unfermentable materials, like a late hop addition.


The only thing I have read about that is adding the liquor from a steep, not grains.


----------



## goatchop41

Grok said:


> What I'm talking about is 20mins before end of boil for unfermentable materials, like a late hop addition.



What exactly are you grouping as non-fermentables? Are you talking just crystal malts and roasted malts? (that's the impression that I'm getting).

If so, I would think that boiling any malts that aren't dehusked will lead to a shit ton (yes, that's a real unit of measurement) of tannins in the finished wort, and therefore a horrendously astringent beer. Or am I incorrect in that assumption? (I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)


----------



## MHB

goatchop41 said:


> What exactly are you grouping as non-fermentables? Are you talking just crystal malts and roasted malts? (that's the impression that I'm getting).
> 
> If so, I would think that boiling any malts that aren't dehusked will lead to a shit ton (yes, that's a real unit of measurement) of tannins in the finished wort, and therefore a horrendously astringent beer. Or am I incorrect in that assumption? (I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)


Dam straight.
Give a classic Australian example, make Billy Tea, Cold Water, Tea, Sugar all in the billy, bring to a boil, hot rich sweet tea. Leave the sugar out and it could strip paint.
Point is that sugars in solution are blocking the tannins, maybe not completely but to a very large extent.
Same in a mash, just steeping grains in hot water will pull lots of tannins.
Also thing there is a lot more in some specialty malts than just what is water extractable, many have a bunch of starch and some proteins in them to, this needs mashing to be degraded or it will end up in the beer where it's guarinteed to cause haze problems.



wide eyed and legless said:


> I have been doing it for a while now since I read Gordon Strong's book. Here is his explanation.
> *Traditional Mash*
> In this approach, the dark grains are milled and mashed along with the rest of the grains in the grist. This approach can lead to harsher, more astringent flavors in the finished beer, especially if the water being used is very alkaline, high in bicarbonates, or has a relatively high pH. Using dark grains in a traditional mash exposes the grains to the highest amount of heat for the longest amount of time, and so is most likely to produce a harsher, more astringent character in the finished beer.
> Snip


Silly reasoning, better to fix the carbonate problem, that's what doing water chemistry is all about - making water that is fit for the beer you want to make.
Guinness takes advantage of the acidity from the large amount of roast grain to lower the pH into the mashing range. If you tried to make a pale ale in Dublin water without a fair amount of water chemistry I suspect you wouldn't get what you wanted.

CWE (Cold Water Extract) used to be a fairly standard part of most COA's (Certificate Of Analysis) talking back when UK breweries did every thing in UK barrels and pounds so ancient history, these days its been replaced by more useful (to commercial) brewers parameters, I think a lot of home brewers would find it handy.
CWE was just the mass that went into solution when milled malt was soaked in cold water, mostly used for Crystal malts

If you want to brew good beer start with good water - good means appropriate the the beer you want to make.
Mark

Just realised that this is totally OT - bit like the rest of this thread!
M


----------



## Grok

MHB said:


> Point is that sugars in solution are blocking the tannins, maybe not completely but to a very large extent.


So if that is the case, then putting some Crystal malts in the boiling kettle may be an acceptable practice?


----------



## MHB

Funny enough its what Graham Wheeler recommended in some of his earlier books (early 1980's), but it seams to have disappeared from his later work.
I wouldn't call it best practice, for a bunch of reasons.
Any unconverted starch or intact proteins wont get exposed to enzymes that can degrade them as they would in the mash. Leads to both lower yields and increased haze problems.
You will extract some tannins (polyphenols), the later in the process they are introduced the less chance there is to form complexes with proteins in the boil and get precipitated in trub.
The less crap in the bottom of the kettle, the more beer you get into the fermenter...
Mark


----------



## JDW81

Grok said:


> So if that is the case, then putting some Crystal malts in the boiling kettle may be an acceptable practice?



what would you be trying to achieve by putting crystal malt into the kettle?


----------



## Grok

JDW81 said:


> what would you be trying to achieve by putting crystal malt into the kettle?


A couple of things I suppose, because I'm pushing the limits of my mash tun capacity, I can only get a certain end volume, but if I can replace a bit of the unfermentable adjuncts with base malt, then I can squeeze a bit more volume out the the other end, and the other was a comment from my friend about getting a richer flavour impart from the crystal malts. I'm not sure about that myself, but I'll give it a go. Probably should just get a bigger mash tun....., but.......that means spending money!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Grok said:


> A couple of things I suppose, because I'm pushing the limits of my mash tun capacity, I can only get a certain end volume, but if I can replace a bit of the unfermentable adjuncts with base malt, then I can squeeze a bit more volume out the the other end, and the other was a comment from my friend about getting a richer flavour impart from the crystal malts. I'm not sure about that myself, but I'll give it a go. Probably should just get a bigger mash tun....., but.......that means spending money!


By the time you come to the last 15 - 20 minutes the level has dropped slightly leaving room for the non fermentables.


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

goatchop41 said:


> What exactly are you grouping as non-fermentables? Are you talking just crystal malts and roasted malts? (that's the impression that I'm getting).
> 
> If so, I would think that boiling any malts that aren't dehusked will lead to a shit ton (yes, that's a real unit of measurement) of tannins in the finished wort, and therefore a horrendously astringent beer. Or am I incorrect in that assumption? (I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)


I was thinking similarly, roast malts would have unconverted starch too, surely they would need to mashed.


----------



## Grok

goatchop41 said:


> (I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)


I adjust my 77 C sparge water to about 6pH or below which helps to stop tannins extraction according to J.J.Palmer.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I was thinking similarly, roast malts would have unconverted starch too, surely they would need to mashed.


Read Gordon Strong's books he is the only 3 times winner of the NHCN, the president of BJCP and a Grand Master beer tasting judge. All his recipes he puts non fermentables like crystal malt etc as a late addition.


----------



## goatchop41

Grok said:


> I adjust my 77 C sparge water to about 6pH or below which helps to stop tannins extraction according to J.J.Palmer.


But that is completely irrelevant to what I had said - the tannin extraction that I mentioned will come from the crystal malt that you are adding to the boil, due to the temperature


----------



## Grok

goatchop41 said:


> But that is completely irrelevant to what I had said - the tannin extraction that I mentioned will come from the crystal malt that you are adding to the boil, due to the temperature


MHB said:
Point is that sugars in solution are blocking the tannins, maybe not completely but to a very large extent.


----------



## MHB

Keep going with the rest of what I said...
The bit you have pulled out was talking about tea - teach me to try and use a example to make it easier to understand.
Any malt that isn't burnt to a cinder (say less than 1,000 EBC) really should be mashed. If its that well roasted all the starch, sugars, tannins.... will be destroyed it wont matter (in terms of what is extracted) when its added.
Apart from Roast Malt, anything paler or any water extract made from it, will need mashing.
Mark


----------



## Cian Doyle

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you are using Brewers Friend tick the late addition box.


I have been following G. Strongs recipes and adding the none fermentables near the end of mash, didn't even realise there was a late addition box on BF. Checking just now it does make a slight difference to the gravity reading.


----------



## kadmium

Hey guys, so I did my first brew on the Guten 40 yesterday. Really enjoyable and stress free. I've gone from pot on the stove to full pressure fermenting, guten 40 and kegerator... lockdown really makes you want a beer!

Anyway, the recipe I went with for an AG is one I have usually hit around 72% efficiency so I ran with the same recipe. My process and recipe is as follows:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 26.96 L
Post Boil Volume: 23.96 L
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 L 
Bottling Volume: 19.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 58.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 29.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
4.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) 
1.00 kg Oats, Flaked (Briess) (2.8 EBC) 
0.45 kg Chocolate (Briess) (689.5 EBC) 
0.30 kg Caraaroma (256.1 EBC) 
0.20 kg Maple Syrup [Boil] (69.0 EBC) 
30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop 
30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 30.0 mi Hop 
1.0 pkg Denny's Favorite (Wyeast Labs #1450) 
2.00 Items Vanilla Beans (Secondary 10.0 days) 


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 6.15 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Saccharification Add 30.60 L of water at 73.5 C 68.9 C 60 min 
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 7 min 75.6 C 10 min 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I adjusted my water using BruN Water as follows:
Gypsum 1.8g
Calcium Chloride 1.5g
Chalk 0.9g

for a final profile of:
Profiles (ppm)
Ca 49
SO4 34
Cl 40
HCO3 55

My mash PH was 5.44 (right where Brun predicted)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I started with 30 Litres (not 30.6) and ended up with 19 into the fermenter. So next time, I will start with closer to 32 litres hoping for 21ish into the fermenter.

I mashed at 67 for a full hour with recirc on, I stirred about 3 times lightly. The grain I bought crushed from KegLand (single pass not double like I usually went with BIAB) and I simply lifted the malt tube up and let drip for about 10 minutes while it came to the boil. I mashed out at 72C for some reason I had a brain failure and though it was a 72c mashout not 78c (could this be the culprit?)


The disappointing thing is my pre-boil OG was 1.050 and my OG was 1.058 which is 7 points low. Efficiency was 56%.

What tips do you guys have for running the Guten? Should I be mashing with 22litres and sparging with 10?

I am considering buying my own mill (for $100 it's not a bad investment if you think it's worth it) but what are your experiences on the gutens? I would prefer to do full volume if possible as it simplifies things, however I can easily do a batch sparge if you think it will increase things. I am not chasing huge numbers, but am hoping to hit a consistent figure and would love to be around the 65-70% mark (only a small cost to buy more grain, but it's a matter of wanting to nail the process)

Thanks guys!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> Hey guys, so I did my first brew on the Guten 40 yesterday. Really enjoyable and stress free. I've gone from pot on the stove to full pressure fermenting, guten 40 and kegerator... lockdown really makes you want a beer!
> 
> Anyway, the recipe I went with for an AG is one I have usually hit around 72% efficiency so I ran with the same recipe. My process and recipe is as follows:
> 
> Recipe Specifications
> --------------------------
> Boil Size: 26.96 L
> Post Boil Volume: 23.96 L
> Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 L
> Bottling Volume: 19.00 L
> Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
> Estimated Color: 58.9 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 29.5 IBUs
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
> Est Mash Efficiency: 76.7 %
> Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amt Name
> 4.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston)
> 1.00 kg Oats, Flaked (Briess) (2.8 EBC)
> 0.45 kg Chocolate (Briess) (689.5 EBC)
> 0.30 kg Caraaroma (256.1 EBC)
> 0.20 kg Maple Syrup [Boil] (69.0 EBC)
> 30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop
> 30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 30.0 mi Hop
> 1.0 pkg Denny's Favorite (Wyeast Labs #1450)
> 2.00 Items Vanilla Beans (Secondary 10.0 days)
> 
> 
> Mash Schedule: BIAB, Full Body
> Total Grain Weight: 6.15 kg
> ----------------------------
> Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
> Saccharification Add 30.60 L of water at 73.5 C 68.9 C 60 min
> Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 7 min 75.6 C 10 min
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I adjusted my water using BruN Water as follows:
> Gypsum 1.8g
> Calcium Chloride 1.5g
> Chalk 0.9g
> 
> for a final profile of:
> Profiles (ppm)
> Ca 49
> SO4 34
> Cl 40
> HCO3 55
> 
> My mash PH was 5.44 (right where Brun predicted)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> So I started with 30 Litres (not 30.6) and ended up with 19 into the fermenter. So next time, I will start with closer to 32 litres hoping for 21ish into the fermenter.
> 
> I mashed at 67 for a full hour with recirc on, I stirred about 3 times lightly. The grain I bought crushed from KegLand (single pass not double like I usually went with BIAB) and I simply lifted the malt tube up and let drip for about 10 minutes while it came to the boil. I mashed out at 72C for some reason I had a brain failure and though it was a 72c mashout not 78c (could this be the culprit?)
> 
> 
> The disappointing thing is my pre-boil OG was 1.050 and my OG was 1.058 which is 7 points low. Efficiency was 56%.
> 
> What tips do you guys have for running the Guten? Should I be mashing with 22litres and sparging with 10?
> 
> I am considering buying my own mill (for $100 it's not a bad investment if you think it's worth it) but what are your experiences on the gutens? I would prefer to do full volume if possible as it simplifies things, however I can easily do a batch sparge if you think it will increase things. I am not chasing huge numbers, but am hoping to hit a consistent figure and would love to be around the 65-70% mark (only a small cost to buy more grain, but it's a matter of wanting to nail the process)
> 
> Thanks guys!


Your efficiency was set to high for a full volume mash, next time start off at 60% and make adjustments with each brew, you should come in around 60 to 65 % Adjust your grain bill to hit your target figures, with that grain bill you may need 34 litres. It is possible if you use some all thread fo the handle which will prevent any grain escaping into the kettle through the handle holes. All thread size is 5/16


----------



## kadmium

So the realistic efficiency I can expect from full volume is 60%?

In that case would batch sparging help or for the few $$ in extra grain I just run at 60% and focus on nailing it. 

Thoughts on a grain mill? Or is that just diminishing returns when only aiming for 60%


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> So the realistic efficiency I can expect from full volume is 60%?
> 
> In that case would batch sparging help or for the few $$ in extra grain I just run at 60% and focus on nailing it.
> 
> Thoughts on a grain mill? Or is that just diminishing returns when only aiming for 60%


Your choice wheth to sparge or use a few dollars more grain, the 60% is a starting point you can improve on that.


----------



## Vic

kadmium said:


> So the realistic efficiency I can expect from full volume is 60%?
> 
> In that case would batch sparging help or for the few $$ in extra grain I just run at 60% and focus on nailing it.
> 
> Thoughts on a grain mill? Or is that just diminishing returns when only aiming for 60%


Regardless of your efficiency, a grain mill makes sense if you purchase your base malts in 25Kg sacks.


----------



## kadmium

Vic said:


> Regardless of your efficiency, a grain mill makes sense if you purchase your base malts in 25Kg sacks.



Which I won't be doing cause I'd probably just buy it mixed but not milled. I was just thinking it's another variable reduced. 

I already adjust water, do yeast starters, etc so just wanting to nail consistently repeatable results. 

Not intending to start a shit show but what's the consistency of Keg Land or Keg King grain crush? Like, they talk about computer controlled grain measurement etc but what's the consistency like? 

I guess I'm asking if a $90 grain mill is gonna be better than just paying to have it crushed. But at $3 a recipe it's only 30 brews and its paid for?


----------



## Cian Doyle

kadmium said:


> Which I won't be doing cause I'd probably just buy it mixed but not milled. I was just thinking it's another variable reduced.
> 
> I already adjust water, do yeast starters, etc so just wanting to nail consistently repeatable results.
> 
> Not intending to start a shit show but what's the consistency of Keg Land or Keg King grain crush? Like, they talk about computer controlled grain measurement etc but what's the consistency like?
> 
> I guess I'm asking if a $90 grain mill is gonna be better than just paying to have it crushed. But at $3 a recipe it's only 30 brews and its paid for?


This is a recent thread on mills.




__





Grain Mill


Looking at getting a grain mill in the very near future. Got my eye on 2 different setups so far https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/grain-mill or https://www.kegland.com.au/maltmuncher-grain-mill.html / https://www.kegland.com.au/maltmuncher-grain-mill-3-roller.html from what ive been...




aussiehomebrewer.com


----------



## kadmium

Yep fair enough. Kind of got a little off topic I suppose! Considering I've only done one brew on the guten, I'm going to give batch sparge a go and plan recipes at 60% at this stage. A malt mill will come in the future, but for now I'm trying to get a fridge for fermenting. I've taken over the spare fridge in the garage for now, which drives the missus crazy!

Will update on the next brew I do, and probably ask some questions.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> Yep fair enough. Kind of got a little off topic I suppose! Considering I've only done one brew on the guten, I'm going to give batch sparge a go and plan recipes at 60% at this stage. A malt mill will come in the future, but for now I'm trying to get a fridge for fermenting. I've taken over the spare fridge in the garage for now, which drives the missus crazy!
> 
> Will update on the next brew I do, and probably ask some questions.


The 60% is for a full volume mash NO SPARGE, if you are going to sparge it will have to be a fly sparge otherwise you will be mucking around emptying the kettle and filling it back up agin, then putting the wort back in for the boil. So its either 'no sparge' or 'fly sparge' if you are going to fly sparge then your efficiency will go up, so maybe between 70 to 75%as a starting point.


----------



## kadmium

wide eyed and legless said:


> The 60% is for a full volume mash NO SPARGE, if you are going to sparge it will have to be a fly sparge otherwise you will be mucking around emptying the kettle and filling it back up agin, then putting the wort back in for the boil. So its either 'no sparge' or 'fly sparge' if you are going to fly sparge then your efficiency will go up, so maybe between 70 to 75%as a starting point.



Why would I need to muck around? My simple brain thinks:

Adjust water and add salts to full volume of 32 litres in kettle. 

Draw about 10 litres off for "sparge" into old 20L pot with ball valve. 

Mash and recirc with 20L. Heat sparge water in pot in kitchen. Lift malt pipe and have resting on legs. Drain from sparge pot onto grain bed with around the same speed as I was recircing. Once filtered through lift and go. 

Is that technically fly sparging? Don't plan on sprinkling and check PH of running etc. Just plan on essentially a hybrid rinse of the grain with clean water.

Kind of like what Gash does in his videos on his robobrew?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> Why would I need to muck around? My simple brain thinks:
> 
> Adjust water and add salts to full volume of 32 litres in kettle.
> 
> Draw about 10 litres off for "sparge" into old 20L pot with ball valve.
> 
> Mash and recirc with 20L. Heat sparge water in pot in kitchen. Lift malt pipe and have resting on legs. Drain from sparge pot onto grain bed with around the same speed as I was recircing. Once filtered through lift and go.
> 
> Is that technically fly sparging? Don't plan on sprinkling and check PH of running etc. Just plan on essentially a hybrid rinse of the grain with clean water.
> 
> Kind of like what Gash does in his videos on his robobrew?


Are you going to be using the same grain bill? And your right its not a batch sparge.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> The 60% is for a full volume mash NO SPARGE, if you are going to sparge it will have to be a fly sparge otherwise you will be mucking around emptying the kettle and filling it back up agin, then putting the wort back in for the boil. So its either 'no sparge' or 'fly sparge' if you are going to fly sparge then your efficiency will go up, so maybe between 70 to 75%as a starting point.



My understanding was that fly sparging is fancy continuous sparging - "The process is conducted by slowly sprinkling sparge water evenly over the top of the grains while the mash is slowly lautered into the boil kettle. This process of continually adding the sparge water while also lautering is where the name “continuous sparging” derives".

Whereas batch sparging is what you do with AIO vessels like the Guten - lift the malt pipe and just pour water over the drained malt pipe in batches - "Parti-gyle brewing is the process of completely draining the mash and using those runnings for one beer, while using the sparge runnings for other beers. Batch sparge uses the same general method of completely draining the mash before sparging, but all the runnings are combined in the boil kettle to be transformed into one beer".

So on these systems, we batch sparge, unless you **** about making unnecessary sparge arms, etc. in order to unnecessarily fly sparge

Quotes are from: Fly Sparging vs Batch Sparging | American Homebrewers Association


----------



## goatchop41

kadmium said:


> Adjust water and add salts to full volume of 32 litres in kettle.
> 
> Draw about 10 litres off for "sparge" into old 20L pot with ball valve.
> 
> Mash and recirc with 20L. Heat sparge water in pot in kitchen.



You don't need to drain it off and heat it separately.
Heat all of your water together, then drain your sparge water off once you're at strike temp. It will only lose 10ish degrees during the mash - temp of sparge water doesn't really matter all that much (unless it is too hot).

Also, I wouldn't adjust all of the water, unless you are accounting for that in your brewing software (ie. adjusting mash and sparge water in your software). I just adjust mash water in Brewfather, so I drain off the heated sparge water and then add my water additions.


----------



## goatchop41

kadmium said:


> Lift malt pipe and have resting on legs. Drain from sparge pot onto grain bed with around the same speed as I was recircing. Once filtered through lift and go.
> 
> Is that technically fly sparging? Don't plan on sprinkling and check PH of running etc. Just plan on essentially a hybrid rinse of the grain with clean water.



That is exactly what a batch sparge is. You would be batch sparging


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The problem is the last brew Kadmium did was a fairly large grain bill he can't leave the grain basket in the kettle he has to lift it out to add the sparge water. So pouring the sparge water through as he intends to do is neither fly or batch sparge. The efficiency is going to suffer just pouring 10 litres of water over a lifted grain bed. That is why I asked him for his grain bill.


----------



## Reg Holt

The other problem would be the pH of the water which has been drawn of and subject to the buffering effect of the grain, will make some difference to the pH of mash/boil.


----------



## golfandbrew

Maybe it's best not to try and define what you're doing and just leave it at sparging with XX litres of water. 

Here are couple things I find useful.

Stir the mash a couple times throughout and recirc to clear the wort in last 20 minutes give or take. You'll see when it's clear. If you mash out that will allow some extra time to clear as well.

Ditch the overflow pipe and put a plug in the bottom screen hole where it used to be. Then monitor how well the wort is flowing through the grain by watching how far up the two little handles the wort is on the top screen. If mine gets about two thirds the way up the handles I'll slow the recirc or stir the mash. Just depends on where I am in the mash. 

Cheers


----------



## kadmium

Yeah fair enough, I suppose I would just call it 'rinsing the grain' hahahaha.

I didn't use the top screen and had recirc on the whole time (gave it 10 minutes to mash in an liquefy but didn't really need it with such a high grist:water) and it was hard to get any noticeable level above the bed as it seemed to be pretty loose being full volume. My idea to hold off 10L for 'rinsing' is to thicken the mash a little so that I can get a proper bed forming I suppose.

The next brew is a NEIPA and the grain bill is:

3.5kg ale malt
1kg wheat malt
500g flaked oats (quick oats)
200g honey malt

at 60% eff it get's me a predicted 1.049 which is not a lot considering it's 5.2kg of grain!

I planned on adding a couple good handfulls of rice hulls in there, to help with the mash not sticking.


----------



## kadmium

Sorry for the double post but it seems Bru'N water doesn't care if you add the salts before splitting for mash. If I do them as a whole (32) it tells me to add X salt to mash, if I do it as 22 mash and 10 sparge it tells me to do X-Y for mash and Y for sparge, if that makes sense. So it's essentially telling me to add the same total amount, just split into the right ratio depending on the figures I add.

Because I am not adding any acid to lower mash ph, it seems that I could add the Calc Chloride and Gypsum at the same time into the full volume, circulate to get it well mixed and then draw my sparge water off. I mean rinse water.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I am brewing a Tropical Stout today 6,7 kg of grain into 35 litres of strike water, I may have to draw a litre or two off but I will have to see.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

OK 35 litres of brewing liquor for strike, had to remove 1 litre to get my fermentables in. While leaving room for non fermentables to go in for the last 15 minutes.





Wort ended up about 8 ml from the top of the kettle.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@CEO Keg King any word on the 70L jackets mate?


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> The problem is the last brew Kadmium did was a fairly large grain bill he can't leave the grain basket in the kettle he has to lift it out to add the sparge water. So pouring the sparge water through as he intends to do is neither fly or batch sparge. The efficiency is going to suffer just pouring 10 litres of water over a lifted grain bed. That is why I asked him for his grain bill.



What? Either I don't understand what you're trying to say, or your idea of sparging in these is a bit weird.



wide eyed and legless said:


> he can't leave the grain basket in the kettle he has to lift it out to add the sparge water





wide eyed and legless said:


> The efficiency is going to suffer just pouring 10 litres of water over a lifted grain bed



But that's exactly how sparging works on these all-in-one machines. If they do that, then not only will they get a decent efficiency (it's exactly what I do, and I get ~80% brewhouse efficiency), but they will also be able to fit bigger batches in (because now you're not as limited by the extra volume that the grain bill takes up in the kettle during the mash).
You lift the malt pipe out of the kettle and rest it on the top of the kettle, then pour the sparge water through the top of the now lifted malt pipe. My understanding is that if you then pour the sparge water over in parts, then it's a batch sparge. If you have a sparge arm to slowly sprinkle the water over, then it's a fly/continuous sparge. You can't really do a traditional fly sparge in these, because you don't have a separate MLT and kettle - they're one and the same. So you can't lauter to the boil kettle and sparge at the same time, because technically you don't lauter in these vessels (you could argue that lifting the malt pipe and letting it drain is technically lautering).

By the sounds of what you're saying, you're suggesting that we somehow sparge by leaving the malt pipe submerged, pouring in the sparge water, then lifting the malt pipe? If so, I've never ever heard of such a thing, and I don't really see what it would achieve.


----------



## goatchop41

kadmium said:


> Sorry for the double post but it seems Bru'N water doesn't care if you add the salts before splitting for mash. If I do them as a whole (32) it tells me to add X salt to mash, if I do it as 22 mash and 10 sparge it tells me to do X-Y for mash and Y for sparge, if that makes sense. So it's essentially telling me to add the same total amount, just split into the right ratio depending on the figures I add.
> 
> Because I am not adding any acid to lower mash ph, it seems that I could add the Calc Chloride and Gypsum at the same time into the full volume, circulate to get it well mixed and then draw my sparge water off. I mean rinse water.


My understanding is that differing levels of the chemicals concerned in water chemistry can affect things like efficiency, pH, etc. - to me, this then has implications for just adding to the mash vs adding to both the mash and sparge.
eg. adding 10g of something that will affect pH to just the mash will affect the mash pH more than adding 7g to the mash and 3g to the sparge.


----------



## goatchop41

kadmium said:


> Yeah fair enough, I suppose I would just call it 'rinsing the grain'


That's exactly what a sparge is. Some homebrewers just like to complicate it too much and think that they have to do fancy fly sparging, because that's how a lot of commercial mash tuns work.



kadmium said:


> I didn't use the top screen and had recirc on the whole time (gave it 10 minutes to mash in an liquefy but didn't really need it with such a high grist:water) and it was hard to get any noticeable level above the bed as it seemed to be pretty loose being full volume. My idea to hold off 10L for 'rinsing' is to thicken the mash a little so that I can get a proper bed forming I suppose


Being full volume will definitely make it recirculate much more freely. Because it does that, I would then argue that you could mill your grain a bit more fine - the greater water:grist ratio will negate the reduced flow that you would usually see from a finely milled grain bill. You'll then benefit from the likely increased efficiency that comes with a more finely milled grain bill


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> What? Either I don't understand what you're trying to say, or your idea of sparging in these is a bit weird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's exactly how sparging works on these all-in-one machines. If they do that, then not only will they get a decent efficiency (it's exactly what I do, and I get ~80% brewhouse efficiency), but they will also be able to fit bigger batches in (because now you're not as limited by the extra volume that the grain bill takes up in the kettle during the mash).
> You lift the malt pipe out of the kettle and rest it on the top of the kettle, then pour the sparge water through the top of the now lifted malt pipe. My understanding is that if you then pour the sparge water over in parts, then it's a batch sparge. If you have a sparge arm to slowly sprinkle the water over, then it's a fly/continuous sparge. You can't really do a traditional fly sparge in these, because you don't have a separate MLT and kettle - they're one and the same. So you can't lauter to the boil kettle and sparge at the same time, because technically you don't lauter in these vessels (you could argue that lifting the malt pipe and letting it drain is technically lautering).
> 
> By the sounds of what you're saying, you're suggesting that we somehow sparge by leaving the malt pipe submerged, pouring in the sparge water, then lifting the malt pipe? If so, I've never ever heard of such a thing, and I don't really see what it would achieve.


Batch sparging is emptying the mash tun and immersing the grain again in the sparge water,
fly sparge is lifting the grain from the kettle and gently pouring the water through the grain bed into the wort below. Simple. No sparge is self explanatory. 








How To Batch Sparge In 2022 - A Beginners Guide
 

What is sparging anyway? We give you a detailed rundown and a quick and easy 5 step process for the perfect batch sparge experience.




bisonbrew.com


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Batch sparging is emptying the mash tun and immersing the grain again in the sparge water,
> fly sparge is lifting the grain from the kettle and gently pouring the water through the grain bed into the wort below. Simple.



Not in the all in one systems though...
Batch sparging in the all in one systems would just be pouring in batches over the raised malt pipe. As I said, having the malt pipe raised is the equivalent of draining the mash tun in a 3V system.
Fly sparging is continuously and slowly pouring the water over the raised malt pipe - not pouring a heap over all at once and then just waiting for it to drain through.

What kadmium is suggesting doing is the all in one system equivalent of batch sparging


----------



## golfandbrew

It seems like a pointless argument but since we can't get past it I would have to agree with WEAL. I would take it one further and say you can't batch sparge unless you have a second vessel with your sparge water to put the malt pipe into and then drain into your first.

Pouring water in batches and letting it drain isn't batch sparging it's just bad fly sparging. Bad fly sparging is about the best you can do by completely removing the malt pipe before sparging.

If one really wanted to do a proper fly sparge with a single vessel they would slowly lift the malt pipe out of the kettle at the same rate the sparge water is added.


----------



## kadmium

Didn't think I would open Pandora's box. Either way, it will be a good experiment because I got the grain at the same time for two batches so I presume they crushed at the same time. I know my full volume efficiency was 56%

This bill also has oats in it, so a handful of rice hulls and a "rinse" will be the only real difference. Should be interesting to see if I get a good boost or not. Will report back.


----------



## dibbz

golfandbrew said:


> Pouring water in batches and letting it drain isn't batch sparging it's just bad fly sparging.



Grainfather instructions say to constantly maintain about an inch of water over the screen during sparging which is technically fly sparging is it not? Lautering - Wikipedia


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> Didn't think I would open Pandora's box. Either way, it will be a good experiment because I got the grain at the same time for two batches so I presume they crushed at the same time. I know my full volume efficiency was 56%
> 
> This bill also has oats in it, so a handful of rice hulls and a "rinse" will be the only real difference. Should be interesting to see if I get a good boost or not. Will report back.


I doubt you will need the rice hulls with full volume and stirring.


----------



## 2095brewer

goatchop41 said:


> Not in the all in one systems though...
> Batch sparging in the all in one systems would just be pouring in batches over the raised malt pipe. As I said, having the malt pipe raised is the equivalent of draining the mash tun in a 3V system.
> Fly sparging is continuously and slowly pouring the water over the raised malt pipe - not pouring a heap over all at once and then just waiting for it to drain through.
> 
> What kadmium is suggesting doing is the all in one system equivalent of batch sparging


 I don’t think that’s the equivalent... you can effectively lauter into another vessel From the bottom ball valve and add sparge water without raising the malt pipe. Stop the lauter when you’re either at your boil volume or at the gravity you want to drop at. Then raise malt pipe (which is lighter now), pump back in and boil.


----------



## golfandbrew

dibbz said:


> Grainfather instructions say to constantly maintain about an inch of water over the screen during sparging which is technically fly sparging is it not? Lautering - Wikipedia



As previously stated if the malt pipe is completely removed it's just bad fly sparging. So yes, technically correct if you are set on defining it. 

Best just to leave it as sparging and not try and put into a box as it's not a good example of either batch or fly.


----------



## dibbz

golfandbrew said:


> As previously stated if the malt pipe is completely removed it's just bad fly sparging. So yes, technically correct if you are set on defining it.
> 
> Best just to leave it as sparging and not try and put into a box as it's not a good example of either batch or fly.



If I'm technically correct, is that why you want to just leave it without explaining any nuance as to why it is "just poor" or make such an assertion without including the reasoning?

What's the parameters you are using to decide on this? Both worts are in a container, one has a tap controlling flow, the other has a screen and relies on your grist to control flow, in both cases you keep water above the grain bed while slowly lautering.

Additionally why when I look at all the experiences and recipes for many different systems on the internet, is the efficiency not very different? So what parameters are you defining to say it's just poor, seeing it's not efficiency what is it? Don't like how they vourlaf during the mash instead?

Sorry but you felt the need to make the statement publicly, I questioned you and you just waved your hand like some higher caste and cited "as previously stated" with only an assertion, I would like to know how you came to this conclusion.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

We had a similar discussion on the Braumeister forum some years ago, most agreed that there are only 2 ways with the BM, 'full volume' or fly sparge, the batch sparge needed to run off the wort and use the sparge water in its place. Very much as a Parti Gyle except in a batch sparge the grain bed is slowly removed from the sparge water and the wort put back in to join the sparge water in a boil.
It really is a futile discussion, kadmium used a phrase batch sparge, which it isn't, and we are only talking about a litre ore two of water which couldn't fit into the kettle to pour over the lifted grain bed. so as mentioned a poor fly sparge. Which I doubt will have any consequence in washing tannins out of the grain bed. Its not like he is pouring 10 to 15 litres over the grain bed.

If you have two vessels the same i.e 2 Gutens then a batch sparge would be easy, apart from having two vessels to clean.


----------



## kadmium

wide eyed and legless said:


> We had a similar discussion on the Braumeister forum some years ago, most agreed that there are only 2 ways with the BM, 'full volume' or fly sparge, the batch sparge needed to run off the wort and use the sparge water in its place. Very much as a Parti Gyle except in a batch sparge the grain bed is slowly removed from the sparge water and the wort put back in to join the sparge water in a boil.
> It really is a futile discussion, kadmium used a phrase batch sparge, which it isn't, and we are only talking about a litre ore two of water which couldn't fit into the kettle to pour over the lifted grain bed. so as mentioned a poor fly sparge. Which I doubt will have any consequence in washing tannins out of the grain bed. Its not like he is pouring 10 to 15 litres over the grain bed.
> 
> If you have two vessels the same i.e 2 Gutens then a batch sparge would be easy, apart from having two vessels to clean.




Didn't mean to start a shit fight. Was just chasing better efficiency than 56. Anywho, today went well. I heated 32L of water, added salts and then drew off 10L for sparging. 

Mashed with 22L and hit a ph of 5.5 which is a little higher then I hoped but still in the good zone. 

I then sparged with 10L over the grain, hence the rice hulls. Ran through quite quickly probably took less than 10 minutes to do. 

Wasn't worried about tannins because I wasn't going to drive the PH up seeing the water for sparging was treated with salts. And I was doing a fixed volume sparge not checking gravity / PH. 

I didn't vorlauf either, as it was recirc and was fairly clear. 

So in the end I got 20.5L although the last 2.5L was very trubby but I am not concerned with that too much. 

Overall efficiency for today was 70% on the dot. So for an extra 10 minutes of my time it's something I will incorporate into my day.


----------



## Tubbsy9876

Quick question,
I've been reading about mashing thickness, and the numbers reported seem to be in the region of 2.5 L/kg of malt. Most of the regular strength beets I'm seeing use around 5-6 kg malt, meaning around 10-18L water.
A lot of the methods I'm reading are using much thinner mashes than those in the resources. Is it an issue? There was something about the stability of the de-branching enzymes being higher when in the enzyme substrate complex, meaning more conversion at higher mash temperatures?

EDIT: Seems to have been answered here: The Mash: Standard vs. Thin Liquor-to-Grist Ratio | exBEERiment Results!

It would seem the changes with thicknesses are tenuous at best, however extraction efficiency is better in a thin mash (for obvious reasons).


----------



## kadmium

Tubbsy9876 said:


> Quick question,
> I've been reading about mashing thickness, and the numbers reported seem to be in the region of 2.5 L/kg of malt. Most of the regular strength beets I'm seeing use around 5-6 kg malt, meaning around 10-18L water.
> A lot of the methods I'm reading are using much thinner mashes than those in the resources. Is it an issue? There was something about the stability of the de-branching enzymes being higher when in the enzyme substrate complex, meaning more conversion at higher mash temperatures?
> 
> EDIT: Seems to have been answered here: The Mash: Standard vs. Thin Liquor-to-Grist Ratio | exBEERiment Results!
> 
> It would seem the changes with thicknesses are tenuous at best, however extraction efficiency is better in a thin mash (for obvious reasons).



Hey mate, I think it depends on how you want to brew. I think that, in my 'philosophy' of brewing, I will take all reasonable steps to ensure I end up with the best product I can. That means, I do make yeast starters, I do oxygenate, I ferment and transfer under pressure etc.

However, at the same time I am not keen on varying my *processes* for each brew day. By that, I mean (and the only way to tell for me will be more brews) I would like to nail down a generic process for brew day. This means, I am aiming to always mash at 22L and sparge with around 10. The reason? The marking for 20L on my guten is actually 22L and if I fill to just below the 30L mark, it's 32L.

So, on brew day I can simply fill my Guten to the same spot, draw off till I hit the 20 mark and i'm good to go. I do all my salt additions to the full volume, and if I add lactic acid in future will work out if I do full volume or mash only. Probably full volume. I do my calcs based on 22L mash and 10L sparge.

If I am brewing a much lighter grain bill (this is for around 5.5kg) then I may drop the sparge volume by 1L.

I am not too concerned about getting 2.5L / KG etc, or measuring off my sparging PH or gravity etc.

If this process results in an efficiency that's swings wildly, then I may revisit it. However, if I know I will always be in the 68-72% range, then let's say I always base my numbers of 70% and if I miss a gravity point here or there i'm not super concerned. To me, the ease of process outweighs a gravity point.

The reason I went from the full volume on my first brew was that I hit 56% which to me is just not good enough. I would rather set out and 'experiment' on the first 10 batches I brew, to set up a process which I can repeat in my sleep knowing I get a small range on efficiency.

Perhaps I should be paying more attention to grain ratio, but even at 22L to 5Kg thats 4:1 so who knows haha


----------



## golfandbrew

kadmium said:


> Hey mate, I think it depends on how you want to brew. I think that, in my 'philosophy' of brewing, I will take all reasonable steps to ensure I end up with the best product I can. That means, I do make yeast starters, I do oxygenate, I ferment and transfer under pressure etc.
> 
> However, at the same time I am not keen on varying my *processes* for each brew day. By that, I mean (and the only way to tell for me will be more brews) I would like to nail down a generic process for brew day. This means, I am aiming to always mash at 22L and sparge with around 10. The reason? The marking for 20L on my guten is actually 22L and if I fill to just below the 30L mark, it's 32L.
> 
> So, on brew day I can simply fill my Guten to the same spot, draw off till I hit the 20 mark and i'm good to go. I do all my salt additions to the full volume, and if I add lactic acid in future will work out if I do full volume or mash only. Probably full volume. I do my calcs based on 22L mash and 10L sparge.
> 
> If I am brewing a much lighter grain bill (this is for around 5.5kg) then I may drop the sparge volume by 1L.
> 
> I am not too concerned about getting 2.5L / KG etc, or measuring off my sparging PH or gravity etc.
> 
> If this process results in an efficiency that's swings wildly, then I may revisit it. However, if I know I will always be in the 68-72% range, then let's say I always base my numbers of 70% and if I miss a gravity point here or there i'm not super concerned. To me, the ease of process outweighs a gravity point.
> 
> The reason I went from the full volume on my first brew was that I hit 56% which to me is just not good enough. I would rather set out and 'experiment' on the first 10 batches I brew, to set up a process which I can repeat in my sleep knowing I get a small range on efficiency.
> 
> Perhaps I should be paying more attention to grain ratio, but even at 22L to 5Kg thats 4:1 so who knows haha


The consistency of your mash is probably closer to others than you think. You have to account for the dead space in your mash tun and single vessel systems have a lot more dead space than most. If you measure the amount of water it takes to reach the bottom screen its about 6.6 litres. If you really wanted to get crazy you could also account for the space around the malt pipe between the kettle but that's probably more trouble than what it's worth. If you subtract this dead space from your total water volume your water to grist ratio is closer to what you see reported for other set ups or systems. So while the numbers help to some degree they don't always tell us the whole story. Something to keep in mind as you you look at other recipes or brewing notes.


----------



## kadmium

golfandbrew said:


> The consistency of your mash is probably closer to others than you think. You have to account for the dead space in your mash tun and single vessel systems have a lot more dead space than most. If you measure the amount of water it takes to reach the bottom screen its about 6.6 litres. If you really wanted to get crazy you could also account for the space around the malt pipe between the kettle but that's probably more trouble than what it's worth. If you subtract this dead space from your total water volume your water to grist ratio is closer to what you see reported for other set ups or systems. So while the numbers help to some degree they don't always tell us the whole story. Something to keep in mind as you you look at other recipes or brewing notes.



Yeah, still getting my head around grist ratio and single vessle and dead space etc, cause I have gone from full volume BIAB on the stove in small batches (at around 74% eff) so by no means am I an expert. I just figure MOST of my grain bills are aiming for 5-6% and are around the 5kg mark, so sticking to a generic "fill to 30 mark, treat, drain to 20 mark, rinse" and knowing I will get around 68-72 (or what ever it comes out at) is better than spending my last remaining brain cells working out 2L/kg and account for dead-space and mash absorption etc etc. 

If I was chasing a high, consistent efficiency then yeah no worries, but just chasing a relatively average efficiency. And 56% was just too low for me. I don't like waste, even if it's $5 worth of grain, it all adds up. It's like a maccas card, I brew 10 times I get one free


----------



## kadmium

Hey, so I have a question about using the Guten with hops.

When I bought it, I left the hop spider behind as I just don't see using it. Personal preference. I kind of regretted that decision when I did a NEIPA with 100g of hops (50 for bittering and 100 steeped at 82c) commando. When I transferred to the fermenter I ended up with the last 2.5L of wort resembling the bottom of my green bin after mowing the lawns,

As such, I have considered putting my old BIAB into the Guten come boil time and using it as a giant hop sock, however not sure how much this will filter out. Anyone got tips on what to do to keep hop matter manageable?

I'm doing a Czech pils next and plan on using a hop sock as it's 120g of hops but with no whirpool etc, mainly bittering so not super concerned about utilization.

Any thoughts or recommendations?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> Hey, so I have a question about using the Guten with hops.
> 
> When I bought it, I left the hop spider behind as I just don't see using it. Personal preference. I kind of regretted that decision when I did a NEIPA with 100g of hops (50 for bittering and 100 steeped at 82c) commando. When I transferred to the fermenter I ended up with the last 2.5L of wort resembling the bottom of my green bin after mowing the lawns,
> 
> As such, I have considered putting my old BIAB into the Guten come boil time and using it as a giant hop sock, however not sure how much this will filter out. Anyone got tips on what to do to keep hop matter manageable?
> 
> I'm doing a Czech pils next and plan on using a hop sock as it's 120g of hops but with no whirpool etc, mainly bittering so not super concerned about utilization.
> 
> Any thoughts or recommendations?


When I used my hop spider I made either a Citra or Zombie Dust, can't remember which, and was not nearly as hoppy as my previous attempt without the spider. You will always loose wort to trub, and is best to leave it in the kettle, 2 to 3 litres of trub in a heavily hopped beer is a fair loss. Adding it to a fermenter is asking for trouble, clear wort in = clear beer out. I either use the helix or a pick up tube at an angle, and if using the pick up tube have patience and let everything settle on the bottom of the kettle.

If you don't like any waste, pour the trub/wort into a jug and put in the fridge everything will settle out, pour off the wort into a saucepan bring to the boil and bottle into a pasata bottle, and you have some nice wort for a starter.


----------



## kadmium

I don't really subscribe to the "clear in clear out" but that's just my experience. I will take reasonable steps to get xlear wort and am probably going to buy a helix from KK with a T piece, but having said that I would prefer to have 3L in the fermenter than down the drain, especially when I'm about to load 200g dry hops onto it. 

Perhaps for a pils or something I might take more care, and yeah I do prefer to leave trub behind but that was 3L with an elbow. The level was at or above the ball valve. I had like 17L and got 20.5 with the last 2.5 being hop sludge, but there was another 1L at least of really bad trub. 

So, perhaps the helix is the answer. Do you find it filters well?

I don't plan on whirpool with the pump cause I find a mash paddle is great at getting a good pool going. 

I'll probably let it settle out for a good 30m after cooling too.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> I don't really subscribe to the "clear in clear out" but that's just my experience. I will take reasonable steps to get xlear wort and am probably going to buy a helix from KK with a T piece, but having said that I would prefer to have 3L in the fermenter than down the drain, especially when I'm about to load 200g dry hops onto it.
> 
> Perhaps for a pils or something I might take more care, and yeah I do prefer to leave trub behind but that was 3L with an elbow. The level was at or above the ball valve. I had like 17L and got 20.5 with the last 2.5 being hop sludge, but there was another 1L at least of really bad trub.
> 
> So, perhaps the helix is the answer. Do you find it filters well?
> 
> I don't plan on whirpool with the pump cause I find a mash paddle is great at getting a good pool going.
> 
> I'll probably let it settle out for a good 30m after cooling too.


There are lot of compromises one has to make in the pursuit of a perfect beer, leaving trub and some wort in the kettle is one of them. If it is 3 litres so be it.








Trub Seperation- Why and How - The Modern Brewhouse


After reading and trying some of the techniques outlined in this article, I was able to achieve a better product with faster fermentation, clearer beer, better foam and a better, longer lasting brewery-fresh taste. I will first show some excerpts from literature, and then show how I implemented...




www.lowoxygenbrewing.com





The helix performs best with no chill, chilling the wort before the fermenter is a bit more tricky and you would need more than one and an elbow onto the tap rather than a tee.
Leaving it 30 minutes may not be long enough, try an hour or more. I have also found leaving the immersion cooling coil in place helps, removing it disturbs the trub again.


----------



## kadmium

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are lot of compromises one has to make in the pursuit of a perfect beer, leaving trub and some wort in the kettle is one of them. If it is 3 litres so be it.



In _your_ opinion it is one of them. Again, I personally am not going to pre chill my wort and rack from one fermenter to another to get crystal clear wort.

Just like squeezing the bag "releases tannins" and BIAB is not possible, and no chill will cause botulism and all the other "essential" things in the pursuit of perfect beer.


----------



## Ballaratguy

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are lot of compromises one has to make in the pursuit of a perfect beer, leaving trub and some wort in the kettle is one of them. If it is 3 litres so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trub Seperation- Why and How - The Modern Brewhouse
> 
> 
> After reading and trying some of the techniques outlined in this article, I was able to achieve a better product with faster fermentation, clearer beer, better foam and a better, longer lasting brewery-fresh taste. I will first show some excerpts from literature, and then show how I implemented...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lowoxygenbrewing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The helix performs best with no chill, chilling the wort before the fermenter is a bit more tricky and you would need more than one and an elbow onto the tap rather than a tee.
> Leaving it 30 minutes may not be long enough, try an hour or more. I have also found leaving the immersion cooling coil in place helps, removing it disturbs the trub again.


I have found that the helix (with an elbow) works really well to filter the wort
I don’t do big brews (40Lt Guten) mainly aiming at 4% abv, but I whirlpool then weight for a while to let it settle then pump directly into the fermenter
The amount of trub left behind Is usually about the height of the helix
I find that the flow this way is reduced but not a deal breaker


----------



## Coalface

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are lot of compromises one has to make in the pursuit of a perfect beer, leaving trub and some wort in the kettle is one of them. If it is 3 litres so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trub Seperation- Why and How - The Modern Brewhouse
> 
> 
> After reading and trying some of the techniques outlined in this article, I was able to achieve a better product with faster fermentation, clearer beer, better foam and a better, longer lasting brewery-fresh taste. I will first show some excerpts from literature, and then show how I implemented...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lowoxygenbrewing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The helix performs best with no chill, chilling the wort before the fermenter is a bit more tricky and you would need more than one and an elbow onto the tap rather than a tee.
> Leaving it 30 minutes may not be long enough, try an hour or more. I have also found leaving the immersion cooling coil in place helps, removing it disturbs the trub again.



Hi WEAL, struggling to picture the setup of more than one helix and an Elbow? I have a helix with bot ends screwed into a Tee piece. Can you explain the set up?
cheers.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Coalface said:


> Hi WEAL, struggling to picture the setup of more than one helix and an Elbow? I have a helix with bot ends screwed into a Tee piece. Can you explain the set up?
> cheers.


Using the tee piece set up, you are left with larger gaps between the spiral, using the elbow pointing along a more natural curve the spiral wants to follow leaves a lesser gap. Using one helix is fine in no chill because the viscosity is less than cold wort. Two helix works with cooled wort a 19 mm capillary connector and a capillary end cap.





You don't have to use a capillary elbow you can use a stainless threaded elbow.


----------



## kadmium

The Trub Experiment - Grainfather Community


What effect would including this sediment have on the overall clarity and taste of the beer and does it have any effect on fermentation?




grainfather.com






wide eyed and legless said:


> Using the tee piece set up, you are left with larger gaps between the spiral, using the elbow pointing along a more natural curve the spiral wants to follow leaves a lesser gap. Using one helix is fine in no chill because the viscosity is less than cold wort. Two helix works with cooled wort a 19 mm capillary connector and a capillary end cap.
> View attachment 118818
> 
> You don't have to use a capillary elbow you can use a stainless threaded elbow.



Just want to say thanks for all the help. 

Also, so I can picture this in my head a little easier, I chill with a copper IC. So you reckon a T piece with two helix's and end caps on them, will do a good job of filtering cold wort?

I know I said I'm not super bothered by trub getting into fermenter, but if I can spend $40 and have a neat solution with minimum effort then why not? 

Watch out WEAL. Before you know I might be posting of gelatin fined wort preferment


----------



## wide eyed and legless

kadmium said:


> The Trub Experiment - Grainfather Community
> 
> 
> What effect would including this sediment have on the overall clarity and taste of the beer and does it have any effect on fermentation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grainfather.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just want to say thanks for all the help.
> 
> Also, so I can picture this in my head a little easier, I chill with a copper IC. So you reckon a T piece with two helix's and end caps on them, will do a good job of filtering cold wort?
> 
> I know I said I'm not super bothered by trub getting into fermenter, but if I can spend $40 and have a neat solution with minimum effort then why not?
> 
> Watch out WEAL. Before you know I might be posting of gelatin fined wort preferment


Hardly surprising reading the trub experiment from the Grainfather community, pretty difficult to avoid trub into the fermenter when the wort is being pumped out. I would be more inclined to heed the words of George Fix, Gordon Strong, John Palmer as well as Kunze than someone involved in promoting the Grainfather. Take that and Brulosophy with a grain of salt.


----------



## bird

Hey Kadmium. I know it's a bit late. But this Is my sparge setup. Keggle for a hlt and use a boat winch and a couple of pulleys To slowly lift the malt pipe as the sparge water flows in. Gets me around 80% efficiency most times. I have the 70lt guten and even doing a 60lt batch I can get about a half hour fly sparge till the guten is full and then wash the grain with the rest of the sparge water till I hit my volume.


----------



## kadmium

bird said:


> Hey Kadmium. I know it's a bit late. But this Is my sparge setup. Keggle for a hlt and use a boat winch and a couple of pulleys To slowly lift the malt pipe as the sparge water flows in. Gets me around 80% efficiency most times. I have the 70lt guten and even doing a 60lt batch I can get about a half hour fly sparge till the guten is full and then wash the grain with the rest of the sparge water till I hit my volume. View attachment 118848


Hey that's awesome. I did pretty much the exact thing, but just lifted the pipe and ran water from the pot over it. 

Just bought 2 bags of malt so a mill is on the way. Will see how I go! 

I'm brewing tomorrow will take a photo of my setup!


----------



## kadmium

Ok, so I ran the Guten today with a simple grain bill:

5kg MO
500g Oats
100g Carapils

Added 100g of hops naked throughout the boil varying times etc. Used whirfloc.

Started with 22L, added 10L of sparge for a total of 32L. Preboil was around 27L and I ended up with 18 in the fermenter. 

There was a HEAP of break material at the bottom, I used a helix with T piece which worked very well. (WEAL would be proud) so I ended up with around the same volume of clear wort as last time. I just added the trub last time. This means I am 2L short so next time I will start with 2L more.

However, it put my BH efficiency back to 60% cause I ended up with 18L in fermenter. I have attached a photo of the trub left behind. You can see I had to cut it off before I reached the valve, which is why I reckon there was around 2l left there.

Thoughts?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You have got slightly more than 2 litres more like 3, as you have said in previous posts 30 litre mark is in actual fact 32 litres, the two litres is the dead space below the tap. Loss to boil, you never mentioned boil length, I lose 5 litres/ hour so if it was 3 litres left in the kettle then your 27 litres pre boil was actually 26 litres, or that is 4 litres of trub in there.
Take off the tee piece and use an elbow you will extract more clear wort.


----------



## Sidney Harbour-Bridge

kadmium said:


> Ok, so I ran the Guten today with a simple grain bill:
> 
> 5kg MO
> 500g Oats
> 100g Carapils
> 
> Added 100g of hops naked throughout the boil varying times etc. Used whirfloc.
> 
> Started with 22L, added 10L of sparge for a total of 32L. Preboil was around 27L and I ended up with 18 in the fermenter.
> 
> There was a HEAP of break material at the bottom, I used a helix with T piece which worked very well. (WEAL would be proud) so I ended up with around the same volume of clear wort as last time. I just added the trub last time. This means I am 2L short so next time I will start with 2L more.
> 
> However, it put my BH efficiency back to 60% cause I ended up with 18L in fermenter. I have attached a photo of the trub left behind. You can see I had to cut it off before I reached the valve, which is why I reckon there was around 2l left there.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 118858


You could filter that lot, I use a coffee filter, boil it and add it to the fermenter (when it's cooled) or freeze it in plastic pop bottles and use for yeast starters or some of each.


----------



## kadmium

I just wish KK would make a false bottom!


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@CEO Keg King any update on the jackets for the 70L?


----------



## Sjek

Hi everyone, I have a question about the 70L Guten. Anyone tried a no sparge double batch of about 40L? I'm wondering if the unit is big enough to hold 9kg-10kg of grain, 55L-60L of liquid and still has enough head space to recirculate the wort..

Also, anyone used the mash programs for a delayed start so your strike water starts heating up an hour before you wake up in the morning? I was thinking that you could prep everything at night, turn on the unit with with the first mash steps being 8hrs at 20C and then the next step being your 70C strike temp. This way it would it would be idle overnight and start heating just before you wake up so you're ready to brew when rolling out of bed. 
I heard the Guten starts beeping at the end of a mash step and it doesn't automatically go to the next mash step unless you press a button. If this is right the above delayed start idea wouldn't work..


----------



## bird

Hey sjek. I think you would be alright at 55lt plus 10kg of grain. 60lt might be pushing it. I haven't tried as I Sparge But on a 60lt batch I'll put 12 to 13 kg of grain and 45lt of strike water and be around the 54 to 55 lt mark. You might have to block the holes on the malt pipe like wiel does so the water doesn't bypass the grain while recircing.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@Sjek I have done a double batch of a dark mild (3.5%) with no sparge on my 70L, putting 44L in to two cubes.
Due to the sight glass, you can only fit 67L in the unit. So when you use your software, just make sure that total water + grain is less than that and you will be fine.


----------



## Sjek

bird said:


> Hey sjek. I think you would be alright at 55lt plus 10kg of grain. 60lt might be pushing it. I haven't tried as I Sparge But on a 60lt batch I'll put 12 to 13 kg of grain and 45lt of strike water and be around the 54 to 55 lt mark. You might have to block the holes on the malt pipe like wiel does so the water doesn't bypass the grain while recircing.



Thanks Bird. I guess WEAL simply uses a small silicon bung for that? 

And how about the mash steps, do you have to push a button to go to the next step or does the unit automatically go to the next step?

btw 12-13kg of grain would give you 60L of about 1.040 - 1.045 wort?



Fro-Daddy said:


> @Sjek I have done a double batch of a dark mild (3.5%) with no sparge on my 70L, putting 44L in to two cubes.
> Due to the sight glass, you can only fit 67L in the unit. So when you use your software, just make sure that total water + grain is less than that and you will be fine.



Thanks Fro. I was thinking you'd need filling well under the top level of the malt pipe to allow for the water/wort level to rise when recirculating?


----------



## bird

Thanks Bird. I guess WEAL simply uses a small silicon bung for that? 

And how about the mash steps, do you have to push a button to go to the next step or does the unit automatically go to the next step?

btw 12-13kg of grain would give you 60L of about 1.040 - 1.045 wort?

Think weal runs a price of ss threaded rod and nuts to secure it. 

Have never used the mash steps only manual mode. 

Yeah generally around 1.046 with sparging I can get up-to 80percent Efficiency but with full volume I think efficiency takes a hit.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

This is 58L of water and 9.5kg of grain. Once the recirculation starts the level drops slightly, and if you have good flow through the grain bed you shouldn't run in to a problem.
You can only fill up to the holes in the malt pipe unless you block them with something like WEAL does or prop the malt pipe up.


----------



## Sjek

Cheers Fro. Good to see you can do a ~5% beer no sparge double batch. That might get me over the line to update my current system. If i can delay the start that would seal the deal for sure. I believe the Brewzilla is able to do that, it's good feature for time poor people.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I'm pretty confident you can delay the start, but I only use manual mode and do other things while heating water.


----------



## kadmium

Sjek said:


> Cheers Fro. Good to see you can do a ~5% beer no sparge double batch. That might get me over the line to update my current system. If i can delay the start that would seal the deal for sure. I believe the Brewzilla is able to do that, it's good feature for time poor people.


I'm pretty sure the Guten only pauses before mashing out into the boil step to make sure you're there. 

I have a series of steps on mine (70 strike, 67 mash, 76 MO) with 1 minute pauses in between with power varied. Never press button other than to go to boil from what I remember. Think it's for safety. 

I would program it like this if I were you:

1. 5c @ 100w (8 hours or what ever you need)
2. Strike @ 2500w (1 minute)
3. Mash @ 1000w (60 or what ever)
4. Mash Out @ 2500w (1 minute)
5. Mash Out @ 1000w (10 m)
6. 99.5 @ 2500w (1 minute)
7. Boil @ 2000w (60 or what ever)

The reason for the 1m steps is so that you can go full whack power to ramp temps, but you don't want to mash at 2500w so by putting a 1 minute step it will ramp to mash out at 2500w, hold for a minute then drop to 1000w. 

The difference between the Guten and Robo (unless they updated it) is you need to make your step times inclusive of heating time as the robo starts timing straight away. The guten only starts once it hits temps. 

Thats just indicative of my own single temp mash with Mash Out, but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: you can obly have 1 boil step which is why the 99.5 step.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I think the steps can be a maximum of 3 hours each, so if you wanted to do it overnight, you may need to replicate step 1 above a few times.
The 1 minute steps are a great idea, never considered that. You can also bump it up to 3000w on the 70L.


----------



## kadmium

Fro-Daddy said:


> I think the steps can be a maximum of 3 hours each, so if you wanted to do it overnight, you may need to replicate step 1 above a few times.
> The 1 minute steps are a great idea, never considered that. You can also bump it up to 3000w on the 70L.


Makes me want to do a Tim The Tool Man grunt with 3000w nice!

Edit: Just checked my 40L and can only do 3 hour steps. I believe you can do up to 9 steps though so can still work. 

Other option is it can save recipes, you can have a recipe to just do the waiting and then heat, and when you wake up go and switch it to your brew recipe if you needed more steps.


----------



## Sjek

kadmium said:


> I'm pretty sure the Guten only pauses before mashing out into the boil step to make sure you're there.
> 
> I have a series of steps on mine (70 strike, 67 mash, 76 MO) with 1 minute pauses in between with power varied. Never press button other than to go to boil from what I remember. Think it's for safety.
> 
> I would program it like this if I were you:
> 
> 1. 5c @ 100w (8 hours or what ever you need)
> 2. Strike @ 2500w (1 minute)
> 3. Mash @ 1000w (60 or what ever)
> 4. Mash Out @ 2500w (1 minute)
> 5. Mash Out @ 1000w (10 m)
> 6. 99.5 @ 2500w (1 minute)
> 7. Boil @ 2000w (60 or what ever)
> 
> The reason for the 1m steps is so that you can go full whack power to ramp temps, but you don't want to mash at 2500w so by putting a 1 minute step it will ramp to mash out at 2500w, hold for a minute then drop to 1000w.
> 
> The difference between the Guten and Robo (unless they updated it) is you need to make your step times inclusive of heating time as the robo starts timing straight away. The guten only starts once it hits temps.
> 
> Thats just indicative of my own single temp mash with Mash Out, but hopefully you get the idea.
> 
> Edit: you can obly have 1 boil step which is why the 99.5 step.



Excellent, this was exactly what I was thinking. And yes, if max step time is 3hrs then just repeat step 1 three times. Funny that it is possible, I had emailed KegKing with this question and they said it wasn't possible bc you have to press a button between steps. Great to hear this is actually not the case. If it automatically transitions to the next mash step without having to press any button, the 'idle steps' can simply be programmed as low temp mash steps


----------



## kadmium

Sjek said:


> Excellent, this was exactly what I was thinking. And yes, if max step time is 3hrs then just repeat step 1 three times. Funny that it is possible, I had emailed KegKing with this question and they said it wasn't possible bc you have to press a button between steps. Great to hear this is actually not the case. If it automatically transitions to the next mash step without having to press any button, the 'idle steps' can simply be programmed as low temp mash steps


Now you have me questioning my own sanity but pretty sure it does cause I used it as a Sous Vide and if I don't pay attention it ends the step and turns off. 

What I will do is go turn mine on now and report back in a few hours.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sjek said:


> Excellent, this was exactly what I was thinking. And yes, if max step time is 3hrs then just repeat step 1 three times. Funny that it is possible, I had emailed KegKing with this question and they said it wasn't possible bc you have to press a button between steps. Great to hear this is actually not the case. If it automatically transitions to the next mash step without having to press any button, the 'idle steps' can simply be programmed as low temp mash steps


I don't think you do have to press anything until mash out to boil, there does seem to be a pause not sure if the alarm sounds between each change.
Once you are comfortable with it you can remove the overflow pipe especially if it is a particularly fluid mash or full volume. I use the threaded rod to prevent grain going through the handle holes on full volume. 





I just put a plug in where the overflow pipe was.

I leave the non fermentables out until the last 20 minutes, this also gives time for the base malts to soak up some liquor leaving room for the non fermentables.


----------



## Sjek

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't think you do have to press anything until mash out to boil, there does seem to be a pause not sure if the alarm sounds between each change.
> Once you are comfortable with it you can remove the overflow pipe especially if it is a particularly fluid mash or full volume. I use the threaded rod to prevent grain going through the handle holes on full volume.
> 
> I just put a plug in where the overflow pipe was.
> 
> I leave the non fermentables out until the last 20 minutes, this also gives time for the base malts to soak up some liquor leaving room for the non fermentables.



Cheers Weal. Doesn't look like there's much room to recirculate in that batch haha.

I've got the very first generation of the Robobrew when KegKing still did them. These don't have a pump or overflow. I've been running a pump on the side but never missed the overflow. Just wait 10 mins after mash-in before running the pump to ensure good flow through the grainbed and then don't go crazy and run the pump at restricted flow.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Sjek said:


> Cheers Weal. Doesn't look like there's much room to recirculate in that batch haha.
> 
> I've got the very first generation of the Robobrew when KegKing still did them. These don't have a pump or overflow. I've been running a pump on the side but never missed the overflow. Just wait 10 mins after mash-in before running the pump to ensure good flow through the grainbed and then don't go crazy and run the pump at restricted flow.


Well a stir every 15 minutes does wonders, can still be done with the overflow in but a darned sight easier with it gone.


----------



## Fergy1987

Hey, just wondering if someone can explain to me the best way to setup the overflow pipe for the guten. Is there a grain size limit where you would have the small portion at the bottom and then the large pipe at the top? I last brewed with the large pipe at the bottom and the top screen didnt even touch the grainbed so I just didnt use it. But I am worried about using the small pipe at the bottom and finding out the hard way my grain bill is too large and it gets buried under it.


----------



## kadmium

Fergy1987 said:


> Hey, just wondering if someone can explain to me the best way to setup the overflow pipe for the guten. Is there a grain size limit where you would have the small portion at the bottom and then the large pipe at the top? I last brewed with the large pipe at the bottom and the top screen didnt even touch the grainbed so I just didnt use it. But I am worried about using the small pipe at the bottom and finding out the hard way my grain bill is too large and it gets buried under it.


I use them both, small pipe on the bottom then the long pipe ontop, that way the joint is a fair way down and the screen sits on the grainbed. I believe there is a threaded piece that joins both the small and long pipe together.


----------



## sp0rk

I'll let you in on a little secret
I always use the full length...
When I set my pump to recirculate, I just stand there for 5 minutes and slow the flow (with the ball valve) until I get a balance between fastest flow and a stable level on top of the grain


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fergy1987 said:


> Hey, just wondering if someone can explain to me the best way to setup the overflow pipe for the guten. Is there a grain size limit where you would have the small portion at the bottom and then the large pipe at the top? I last brewed with the large pipe at the bottom and the top screen didnt even touch the grainbed so I just didnt use it. But I am worried about using the small pipe at the bottom and finding out the hard way my grain bill is too large and it gets buried under it.


Not a grain bill limit but a volume, the size is for different volume as mentioned above you should have a straight connector to fit the small and large pipe together. Remember it is an overflow pipe, that is its purpose. The last thing you want is wort going down the overflow pipe and not through the wort. Top screen serves no purpose, you don't need that, if you mash with a more fluid mash you can get rid of the overflow pipe too.


----------



## kadmium

In my opinion, and in the way I used it, I like the top screen. I have found that if I just run my silicone hose onto the grain bed, if I don't pay attention it can drill down into the mash bed. So, for me, I use to top screen.

In WEALs opinion, it's not needed, so do what works for you.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Top screen serves no purpose, you don't need that.


Well, the fact that pretty much all of the AIO brewing systems have one tells us that it clearly has a purpose. So I would have to disagree with you there.

I'm with @kadmium on this - without the top screen, the recirculation can bore a hole in to the grain bed and start to cause channelling. The top plate prevents that and helps to better distribute both the recirculation and sparge water


----------



## kadmium

I think its more when people talk in absolutes. Don't just say "this is not needed" preface it with "in my opinion" or "I have found" and then quantify it with some anecdotal evidence to show how you formed the opinion. 

I have found the top plate isn't needed because...


Not just, "top screen serves no purpose"


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> Well, the fact that pretty much all of the AIO brewing systems have one tells us that it clearly has a purpose. So I would have to disagree with you there.
> 
> I'm with @kadmium on this - without the top screen, the recirculation can bore a hole in to the grain bed and start to cause channelling. The top plate prevents that and helps to better distribute both the recirculation and sparge water


It has no purpose whatsoever, it prevents any stirring, (which I have been doing and increasing my efficiency) if one has a fluid mash then the return pipe is under the the level of the mash, so not boring any holes in anything.
There are more reasons not to have a top screen than to have a top screen.
Just look at the latest model, that has a cam lock coupler with a barb and silicone hose, can't see that boring holes and chanelling.


----------



## mje1980

FWIW I’ve never used the top screen in my robo. I choke the pump down to a fairly slow flow for recirc.


----------



## Reg Holt

Another no top screen user here, also found to get better efficiency with regular stirring.


----------



## kadmium

Depends on how you brew. If you go full volume sure maybe, but to categorically state "there is no need" is just foolish. 

Express your opinion as your own but don't make sweeping generalised statements on behalf of all guten users.


----------



## golfandbrew

I find my overflow pipe does it's best work on the shelf. Sealed the hole up with 1/2 inch plug and nut. It's only purpose is a fail safe to prevent running the kettle dry. Better to be a responsible brewer and keep and eye on what is happening rather than relying on your machine to do this for you. I have found the handles on the top screen to be a good guide on when to throttle the recirc up or down. If the wort is over the handles I throttle down, or wait for it...remove the top screen and stir. Just because the screen is there doesn't mean it has to stay there. If there isn't much wort above the screen then I throttle the recirc faster. 
Not using the overflow pipe also makes stirring easier. After you have removed the top screen of course.
Also feels like its better to stir the mash for even heat distribution rather than let all your wort being measured by the thermometer in the bottom of the kettle go right back down the overflow pipe.
I'll recirc without stirring the last 15-20 minutes to help clear the wort before sparging. If it takes longer clear, it takes longer to clear.


----------



## mje1980

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't think you do have to press anything until mash out to boil, there does seem to be a pause not sure if the alarm sounds between each change.
> Once you are comfortable with it you can remove the overflow pipe especially if it is a particularly fluid mash or full volume. I use the threaded rod to prevent grain going through the handle holes on full volume.
> View attachment 119072
> 
> I just put a plug in where the overflow pipe was.
> 
> I leave the non fermentables out until the last 20 minutes, this also gives time for the base malts to soak up some liquor leaving room for the non fermentables.
> View attachment 119073


I’m going to try that on my brewzilla cheers. I’ve never had a batch that looked like over flowing and it’d be good to give the mash an occasional stir, particularly with adjunct beers.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

No top screen, no overflow pipe, works best for me.


----------



## malt and barley blues

I dumped the top screen long ago, stopped using the overflow pipe after reading about it in this thread.


----------



## Ballaratguy

I also don’t use the top screen (easier to stir during the mash)
I use a helix coil on the tap so I use the bazooka on the overflow pipe just for insurance
I always seen to get pretty good efficiency 
But each to his (or her) own


----------



## Cian Doyle

I don't use the top screen, I would be surprised if many do. Just started eliminating the return pipe from the mash tun simply to make it easier to stir. I would advise using the new style bottom screen though, I managed to dislodge the old screen while stirring.


----------



## soulcash

Hey guys!

Guten 70l is 40,5 cm in diameter, and Brewzilla 65l is 41 cm in diameter. Did somebody try or know if Brewzilla 65l false bottom / pump filter fits Guten 70l?

Thanks!


----------



## goatchop41

soulcash said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Guten 70l is 40,5 cm in diameter, and Brewzilla 65l is 41 cm in diameter. Did somebody try or know if Brewzilla 65l false bottom / pump filter fits Guten 70l?
> 
> Thanks!



Several people have done it - it needs to be cut down to size so that it will fit


----------



## awfulknauful

No top screen here, haven't tried it without the return pipe.Will have to give it a go.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I wouldn't advise anyone who has just got a SVB to remove the return pipe until they get to know their system, and understand why its there, and to be able to control the flow without using the return pipe. As Ballarat Guy says it is there for insurance, and not to be implemented as part of the brewing process.


----------



## golfandbrew

wide eyed and legless said:


> I wouldn't advise anyone who has just got a SVB to remove the return pipe until they get to know their system, and understand why its there, and to be able to control the flow without using the return pipe. As Ballarat Guy says it is there for insurance, and not to be implemented as part of the brewing process.



I think telling a new SVB user to remove the overflow pipe and watch over their mash is much less risky that what many users will do with the return pipe in. I see too many videos and posts where users start their mash then "go make breakfast" or whatever else. Somewhere along the way SVB became this almost set it and forget method. Maybe that's also got something to do with electric brewing. Not sure really. But anything that gives the user the confidence to not to watch what is going on with their brew is far more risky in my opinion.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

golfandbrew said:


> I think telling a new SVB user to remove the overflow pipe and watch over their mash is much less risky that what many users will do with the return pipe in. I see too many videos and posts where users start their mash then "go make breakfast" or whatever else. Somewhere along the way SVB became this almost set it and forget method. Maybe that's also got something to do with electric brewing. Not sure really. But anything that gives the user the confidence to not to watch what is going on with their brew is far more risky in my opinion.


Probably comes from the BM which doesn't really leave anything for the brewer to do during the mash. But I do think it is better for a new user to understand why the overflow pipe is there. I still had mine in an stirred until I realised I was installing something each brew day which would never fulfill its purpose.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@CEO Keg King How are the 70L jackets going?


----------



## CKK

Fro-Daddy said:


> @CEO Keg King How are the 70L jackets going?


Expected in on the 21st of this month.


----------



## kadmium

CEO Keg King said:


> Expected in on the 21st of this month.


Any update on a false bottom for Gutens? I just bought a MK II pump to try and alleviate my whirpooling issues but a false bottom to keep hops and trub away would be great. Just a simple SS mesh with some legs on it. Nothing fancy.


----------



## mynameisrodney

goatchop41 said:


> Yes. They will cut in and out more if you have it on a lower wattage - it's just the duty cycle, that's how they work when you run it at a lower wattage than the maximum. Eg. if you run it at half power then it will be on half of the time and off half of the time



I'm looking to buy a 70L Guten. At the moment I dont have a 15A power socket, so was hoping to use one of those amphibian 15A to 10A converters for 6 months or so until I get some renovations done. Based on the info above it sounds like that wont work. If the wattage is just controlled by duty cycle, then as soon as the elements are on the breaker will trip. Can anyone confirm or deny that this is how it works? Or anyone used one of those Amphibian converters with a gutn 70L before?

Also I was trying to find the volume of the recoverable dead space under the malt pipe for the 70L, and the height of hte malt pipe itself. Can anyone help me with those measurements?

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## kadmium

Those amphibians are not really going to do the job to be honest. Not sure if it alters the duty cycle or not, but you will spend a LONG time heating water. My understanding is that a 15amp socket is all that's needed to be replaced. You should be able to just have the socket replaced where you intend to brew from, as most modern domestic circuits will run the 15amp draw (it's a resistive load) its just the socket that has the standard earth pin. 

Dead space I'm unsure of sorry.


----------



## mynameisrodney

My house is 40 years old, and the spot where I brew is on the same circuit as a bunch of other GPOs, so I doubt I'll be able to safely just replace the socket. If I want getting renovations done I would put a new circuit in now, but they'll be adding more cable to the same spot in 6 months or so, so no point paying twice. 

The way I am currently brewing the slow heating time wont really be an issue for me. I set up the night prior with a timer to start heating water so its ready for 7am. Then I mash in and go to work. Come home about 5:30pm, pull the brew bag and start heating up to boil at about 1000W. ~7:30pm when kids are in bed I start my boil. So my equipment is sitting around for a long time between steps already. I do it this way so I can keep weekends free for family and other hobbies. I'm actually pretty happy with the system I have, but I want to do more double batches and higher gravity beers which is where I struggle.

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## kadmium

mynameisrodney said:


> My house is 40 years old, and the spot where I brew is on the same circuit as a bunch of other GPOs, so I doubt I'll be able to safely just replace the socket. If I want getting renovations done I would put a new circuit in now, but they'll be adding more cable to the same spot in 6 months or so, so no point paying twice.
> 
> The way I am currently brewing the slow heating time wont really be an issue for me. I set up the night prior with a timer to start heating water so its ready for 7am. Then I mash in and go to work. Come home about 5:30pm, pull the brew bag and start heating up to boil at about 1000W. ~7:30pm when kids are in bed I start my boil. So my equipment is sitting around for a long time between steps already. I do it this way so I can keep weekends free for family and other hobbies. I'm actually pretty happy with the system I have, but I want to do more double batches and higher gravity beers which is where I struggle.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris


Yeah thats a fair point there. Great idea to mashing all day, why not? Very smart. 

Aight, another option would be to run an extension cable from the oven outlet to your brewery if that's possible? Might not have a 15amp circuit there though, but might be lucky?

Otherwise as a last resort yes an amphibian should work as long as the power consumption is not full power less time. I don't think it is, its digitally adjusted but someone with more knowledge could expand further!


----------



## mynameisrodney

Good idea on the oven outlet, I'll see if its possible to string something up that's not too annoying for the wife. 

The all day mashes work great but I do get higher attenuation. For most beers this is fine for me, but I recently brewed a NEIPA this way and it was too thin bodied, so I'll go back to a normal mash for this style or others where you want a higher FG.


----------



## mynameisrodney

FYI I got a response from Keg King that the unit will still trip a 10A breaker at low power settings.


----------



## Keg King

Those brewers using the 70L systems - We now have jackets available for them.



https://www.keg-king.com.au/jacket-for-70l-guten-brewery-system.html



Should have standing false bottoms available by about mid to end of November!


----------



## Fergy1987

Just wondering what wattage does everyone mash at? I was mashing at 1000 to 1200 and now hear of people mashing at 200w. Thoughts?


----------



## Keg King

Fergy1987 said:


> Just wondering what wattage does everyone mash at? I was mashing at 1000 to 1200 and now hear of people mashing at 200w. Thoughts?


All kind of depends on your batch size, ambient temps, whether or not you use an insulation jacket and mash thickness. You'll find a good spot where you can maintain the temp with the lid on recirculating and then adjust the power. Some brewers do the sacrification rest without recirculating after seating the mash. Most prefer to recirculate though out the process up until preboil.


----------



## golfandbrew

Fergy1987 said:


> Just wondering what wattage does everyone mash at? I was mashing at 1000 to 1200 and now hear of people mashing at 200w. Thoughts?


Been a while since I checked my settings but I'm pretty sure mine is set at 1200 or 1500. I do heat my strike water at max though. I tried as high as 1800 for the maah and thought that was a bit much. Interested to hear what others are doing.


----------



## kadmium

I heat at 2500w then drop to 1000w unless it's a big grain bill or I'm mashing high. That's using a jacket.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I put the jacket on my 70L tonight, very snug fit. I had to loosen the recirculation pipe to get it on.
Would be a pain to remove when chilling.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I mash at 1700 watt, checking the temperature coming out of the return pipe it was 2 to 3 C lower than indicated on the screen. Also started checking the temperature against the screen for each brew, and re calibrating, a few brews ago it was out by 3 C the 60 litre Hop Cat was 5 C out. Not a big deal to check when setting up for a brew.
Also secured the bottom screen into position, twice it has lifted, well it won't lift now.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Do you use the locking screen or the original? The one on the 70L is great.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> Do you use the locking screen or the original? The one on the 70L is great.


Locking screen, but I put it in the night before, I usually forget to press it home with the paddle the next day, so I have made a retaining strap to secure it in position. No way it can move now.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Any updates on the false bottom for the 70L?


----------



## Cian Doyle

Fro-Daddy said:


> Any updates on the false bottom for the 70L?


Was down in Melbourne last week popped into KK yesterday to get some grain, saw them in the shop, the guy serving said they came in Friday.

I picked up these when I was there, sick of cleaning the blow tie so I am going to replace it with one of these. Saves worrying about my pressure gauge too.
Any one else tried them yet, the Blue is 69 kpa Purple 103 kpa or 10 and 15 PSI in the old money.
Going to set them up on my Snubnose.


----------



## goatchop41

Cian Doyle said:


> Was down in Melbourne last week popped into KK yesterday to get some grain, saw them in the shop, the guy serving said they came in Friday



Unfortunately they're still out of stock on the website...they obviously haven't updated it yet (that's the ones for the 40/50L)


----------



## Fro-Daddy

@Keg King @CEO Keg King Can you please add the 70L false bottom to the website?


----------



## Keg King

goatchop41 said:


> Unfortunately they're still out of stock on the website...they obviously haven't updated it yet (that's the ones for the 40/50L)


They will be on shortly.


----------



## Keg King

Fro-Daddy said:


> @Keg King @CEO Keg King Can you please add the 70L false bottom to the website?


Sure thing


goatchop41 said:


> Unfortunately they're still out of stock on the website...they obviously haven't updated it yet (that's the ones for the 40/50L)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Cian Doyle said:


> I picked up these when I was there, sick of cleaning the blow tie so I am going to replace it with one of these. Saves worrying about my pressure gauge too.
> Any one else tried them yet, the Blue is 69 kpa Purple 103 kpa or 10 and 15 PSI in the old money.
> Going to set them up on my Snubnose.
> View attachment 119832


Now that does make a lot of sense, saves a lot of room too. I suppose if one wanted less pressure then a trim of the spring or a replacement spring for that matter. I expect they are a very cheap alternative to the spunding valves and gauges out there.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Cian Doyle said:


> sick of cleaning the blow tie


Why are you cleaning it so often?
If krausen is getting in it, it will surely get in the PRV as well?


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Now that does make a lot of sense, saves a lot of room too. I suppose if one wanted less pressure then a trim of the spring or a replacement spring for that matter. I expect they are a very cheap alternative to the spunding valves and gauges out there.



Much less safe as well.
There are plenty of examples of people in FB brewing groups and forums who blame the manufacturer or quality of their pressure fermenting vessel for it exploding (several users on this forum, in particular, who seem to make a point of posting every single one that they see), yet once they're questioned about the circumstances it becomes clear that they were relying on the PRV to vent pressure, and the PRV has failed (stuck, etc.). It's just a bad idea


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> Much less safe as well.
> There are plenty of examples of people in FB brewing groups and forums who blame the manufacturer or quality of their pressure fermenting vessel for it exploding (several users on this forum, in particular, who seem to make a point of posting every single one that they see), yet once they're questioned about the circumstances it becomes clear that they were relying on the PRV to vent pressure, and the PRV has failed (stuck, etc.). It's just a bad idea


I have never read of a PRV failing, what has been failing is the units themselves even as low as 10 PSI. The pressure in those Fermzilla's have never got to the activating pressure of the PRV before failing.
Also if it was the case, which it isn't, of people relying on the PRV to vent an over pressurised unit, that would mean the Blowtie or whatever other spunding valve was failing also.


----------



## Keg King

goatchop41 said:


> Much less safe as well.
> There are plenty of examples of people in FB brewing groups and forums who blame the manufacturer or quality of their pressure fermenting vessel for it exploding (several users on this forum, in particular, who seem to make a point of posting every single one that they see), yet once they're questioned about the circumstances it becomes clear that they were relying on the PRV to vent pressure, and the PRV has failed (stuck, etc.). It's just a bad idea


If the PRV arrangement is badly designed then this will definitely cause problems. Its one of the reasons why you should only choose PET tanks that have the ability to go above 5 bar also. Once the pressure gets really high the yeast action dies right off. Sadly there are products out there which are exploding at much lower pressures than that. Its one of the reasons why we went to a lot of effort to make the strongest tanks and show them off lifting a loaded ute. Not seen any other supplier able to match this.

Obviously cleaning the PRV and checking it should be standard procedure for anyone pressure fermenting. Also make sure when you purchase something that the PRV orifice is not too small. We have seen units with really small holes which can become a problem as they don't allow gas to escape quickly enough if someone makes a mistake with a regulator.


----------



## golfandbrew

Where does the PRV go in the Guten?


----------



## Grmblz

golfandbrew said:


> Where does the PRV go in the Guten?


It's not a pressure rated vessel so doesn't need one, it's KK's version of the KL Brewzilla. 
It's an "all in one" brewing system not a fermenter.


----------



## Cian Doyle

Fro-Daddy said:


> Why are you cleaning it so often?
> If krausen is getting in it, it will surely get in the PRV as well?


I had an infection in one of my fermenters, stripped the posts and PRV gave the fermenter a good clean every thing was fine. Using a different fermenter on another brew, got the same infection. Realised it could be coming from the tubes and Blowtie as I start at negative pressure, sure enough after cleaning I was rid of any more infections. Easier to clean all the accessories to the vessel than to throw out a brew. The PRV's are an easily cleaned item


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Also if it was the case, which it isn't, of people relying on the PRV to vent an over pressurised unit, that would mean the Blowtie or whatever other spunding valve was failing also



This sentence makes me think that you didn't actually read my post. My post was relating to idiotic brewers who don't use a spunding valve at all, and are relying on the PRV as their only form of pressure control


----------



## goatchop41

Keg King said:


> We have seen units with really small holes which can become a problem as they don't allow gas to escape quickly enough if someone makes a mistake with a regulator


That would have to be a pretty big mistake to make - they'd have to absolutely crank the pressure in one swift motion, and have absolutely no idea what they were doing. Anyone who is stupid enough to do that probably shouldn't be allowed to use most powered things in our society (power tools, cars, etc.)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> This sentence makes me think that you didn't actually read my post. My post was relating to idiotic brewers who don't use a spunding valve at all, and are relying on the PRV as their only form of pressure control


Who are the people who pressure ferment without a spunding valve? That's a first for me.


----------



## Grmblz

wide eyed and legless said:


> Who are the people who pressure ferment without a spunding valve? That's a first for me.


Errr, the ones that use a PRV as a spunding valve?  
imho it's one of those "sounded like a good idea at the time" but strokes for folks as they say.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Grmblz said:


> Errr, the ones that use a PRV as a spunding valve?
> imho it's one of those "sounded like a good idea at the time" but strokes for folks as they say.


I just can't get my head round someone pressure fermenting without a spunding valve! They would have to be either mad, or the owner of a FermZilla.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> Who are the people who pressure ferment without a spunding valve? That's a first for me.



Again, read my actual post. Your reply once again shows that you didn't. I stated that I had seen multiple examples of it being done across social media and forums.
Your overzealous need to attack anything relating to KL on this forum seems to be clouding your ability to read and think critically (which seems to happen often). It's been going on for years now and is quite frankly more than a little sad


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> Again, read my actual post. Your reply once again shows that you didn't. I stated that I had seen multiple examples of it being done across social media and forums.
> Your overzealous need to attack anything relating to KL on this forum seems to be clouding your ability to read and think critically (which seems to happen often). It's been going on for years now and is quite frankly more than a little sad


I read your post you didn't say they were not using a spunding valve, I suggest you read your own post.
As far as I have seen it is only the KL FermZilla which have a problem with exploding, if you can show me a KK pressure vessel exploding I will edit my post. Good Luck.


----------



## Grmblz

Our little PRV's can, and do block, as can the poppets on our posts, I think it's incumbent on the users to ensure that the pressure rating of the vessel (whatever that may be) is not exceeded.
I've mentioned it before, if you chuck a sh*t load of pellets into a lively brew with insufficient head space expect things to clog up, it's what blow off tubes are for. 
We have a conundrum, "minimise head space" fair enough, "ferment under pressure" (not sure why but it's all the rage) so fair enough, but then we want to brew an Imperial Neipa, result: clogged poppets/PRV's, and lines, and taps.
Sure there's ways and means of doing it, but judging by the amount of failed pressure vessels on social media a lot of people are unaware of how to do it safely.
I suspect a large number of failures are due to the inexperience/incompetence of the users.
It's pretty obvious that KL have had some issues, otherwise they wouldn't have offered replacements for units with stress cracks around the necks of some of their fermenters, as far as I am aware KK have not had similar issues.
KK fermenters are made in Australia, KL's are made in China, using different methods, and a different design, KK's have a higher pressure rating, and a somewhat fool proof design, so we're not comparing apples with apples.
End of day look at both, decide what features you want, and how much you want to spend.
I've got fermenters from both companies, and haven't blown up any of them yet, but then again I have a vague idea of what I'm doing.


----------



## golfandbrew

Grmblz said:


> It's not a pressure rated vessel so doesn't need one, it's KK's version of the KL Brewzilla.
> It's an "all in one" brewing system not a fermenter.


Thanks mate. I am well aware that the Guten is not a fermenter. I was hoping others might see that as well. Looks like only CaptainMochSnot got the message.


----------



## goatchop41

wide eyed and legless said:


> I read your post you didn't say they were not using a spunding valve, I suggest you read your own post.





goatchop41 said:


> yet once they're questioned about the circumstances it becomes clear that they were relying on the PRV to vent pressure, and the PRV has failed



So what you're saying then is that you are just unable to perform deductive reasoning? Stating that users are relying on a PRV to be their method of venting pressure should make it very clear to someone of your experience that they are not using a spunding valve - because in that case the spunding valve would clearly be the method of pressure venting

You have mostly helpful (and sometimes valuable) contributions to this forum, but at times you (and your absolutely blind, zealot-like bias against KL) can be absolutely insufferable.


----------



## golfandbrew

Looking to get things back on track...anyone pick up the standing false bottom yet?


----------



## goatchop41

golfandbrew said:


> Looking to get things back on track...anyone pick up the standing false bottom yet?



I'm just about to get my hands on one for my 40L unit. I've heard good reports on a couple of brewing groups on FB.
Thought that I should get one as I've recently upgraded myself from no-chill to using a CFC, but the pump blocked the very first time that I tried to use the CFC


----------



## Dozer71

Got one in the last batch available late last year. Does catch a lot and forms a nice "trub cake" on it. Shall take a pic next time. So it works.

Also it has a couple of lift points but do need to give it a bend to extract past the malt pipe supports. So for cleaning usually lay the guten on its side and hose out the trub then take out the fb to clean properly.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

goatchop41 said:


> So what you're saying then is that you are just unable to perform deductive reasoning? Stating that users are relying on a PRV to be their method of venting pressure should make it very clear to someone of your experience that they are not using a spunding valve - because in that case the spunding valve would clearly be the method of pressure venting
> 
> You have mostly helpful (and sometimes valuable) contributions to this forum, but at times you (and your absolutely blind, zealot-like bias against KL) can be absolutely insufferable.


What I am saying is, I am not going to rely on hearsay on whether anyone is not using a spunding valve. I just can't imagine anyone doing it so it isn't quite clear, whether a spunding valve is being used, it could well be they are relying on the PRV if the spunding valve fails to operate. Many spunding valves have a pressure capability higher than that of the PRV, I can then see where a new user could accidentally adjust the spunding valve higher than the PRV. Those PRV'S with the 10 AND 15 PSI rating are a good idea they are a simple poppet with little chance of them failing, that type have been used for many years on pressure vessels without cause for concern.
Another question would be with the double whammy of pressure and dissolved co2 which is toxic to yeast, would the yeast keep performing as the pressure crept up? 

I am a product of my own upbringing. I have a moral code which I live by and expect others to do the same, we all know the difference between right and wrong.
But it isn't just the lack of a moral code of conduct at Keg Land, but also the lack of a legal code of conduct. We have read of the court case they lost, and the underhanded appropriation of trade marks, which they have now had to give up. There are lots of other misdemeanors false advertising, fake reviews, infringing patents. I would be willing to bet there will be more in the future.
If they had started the business in a proper manner, and carried out that business in a proper manner I wouldn't have anything to complain about.


----------



## golfandbrew

goatchop41 said:


> I'm just about to get my hands on one for my 40L unit. I've heard good reports on a couple of brewing groups on FB.
> Thought that I should get one as I've recently upgraded myself from no-chill to using a CFC, but the pump blocked the very first time that I tried to use the CFC


Been thinking of getting a CFC or PC myself. What's the initial temperature drop like? I use a PET fermenter so I was thinking I would have to recirc back into the kettle for a bit before going into the fermenter.


----------



## hopnotic

golfandbrew said:


> Been thinking of getting a CFC or PC myself. What's the initial temperature drop like? I use a PET fermenter so I was thinking I would have to recirc back into the kettle for a bit before going into the fermenter.


Mate, I'm using the grainfather CFC with a PET fermenter. I just throttle back the flow using the tap on the pump output pipe and using an inline Blichmann Thrumometer to keep an eye on the temperature into the fermenter. Once it's around half full you can safely pump 40c wort into the ferm as it mixes with the cooler stuff. This is my technique when using kviek, she's ready to go at 35C!


----------



## duncbrewer

I start to pump it out slowly at 45C in boiler into the PET fermenter and let it fall thru the air to the base of the fermenter to start the aeration. 
It seems to be about 35 C with this method .


----------



## mynameisrodney

Just got delivery of my 70L guten this week (after 15A power point went in last Friday). I'm hoping to be able to brew on Sunday. Just trying to figure out all the things I need to do before my first run. So far I have, clean everything obviously, calibrate temp, 'calibrate' sight glass, measure boil off rate, check all conections are leak proof, and just have a general tinker to familiarise myself with everything. Is there anything else I should really be doing? Any gotchas to look out for? Planning on just doing a single batch maris otter mosaic smash for my first run to keep it simple.

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## Magicalpancake

mynameisrodney said:


> Just got delivery of my 70L guten this week (after 15A power point went in last Friday). I'm hoping to be able to brew on Sunday. Just trying to figure out all the things I need to do before my first run. So far I have, clean everything obviously, calibrate temp, 'calibrate' sight glass, measure boil off rate, check all conections are leak proof, and just have a general tinker to familiarise myself with everything. Is there anything else I should really be doing? Any gotchas to look out for? Planning on just doing a single batch maris otter mosaic smash for my first run to keep it simple.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris




I think you've pretty much got it down. I had a back up siphon just in case the pump got blocked but that was doing a big west coast


----------



## duncbrewer

I find the sight glass an absolute pain to clean.
Build a condenser for the top and put a viewing port in the top. 

Very relaxed non full batch brewing as so little chance of boilover.


----------



## JimsBeerandBrewing

So I go to brew a batch today as you do and upon cleaning my Guten as I normally would before every brew with sodium perc it trips off, now last brew out I was minutes away from ending the boil and the unit had tripped off, so I thought at the time.............. though it turns out it was my kids switching the power off, anyway, this time back upon cleaning the unit trips off when reaching around 30c-35c this now continues to happen, unit is around 2 years old 40L system, thoughts with the next step, should I just invest in a new all in one system?


----------



## bird

JimsBeerandBrewing said:


> So I go to brew a batch today as you do and upon cleaning my Guten as I normally would before every brew with sodium perc it trips off, now last brew out I was minutes away from ending the boil and the unit had tripped off, so I thought at the time.............. though it turns out it was my kids switching the power off, anyway, this time back upon cleaning the unit trips off when reaching around 30c-35c this now continues to happen, unit is around 2 years old 40L system, thoughts with the next step, should I just invest in a new all in one system?


I had the same problem with my 70lt Guten not long ago and it turned out to be a problem with the screen. I think they are about 35 dollars and easy to replace. Would be worth trying before buying a new system.


----------



## JimsBeerandBrewing

bird said:


> I had the same problem with my 70lt Guten not long ago and it turned out to be a problem with the screen. I think they are about 35 dollars and easy to replace. Would be worth trying before buying a new system.


Where do I go to acquire this part?


----------



## bird

From kegking. It's not on the website but ring them and they should have them.


----------



## JimsBeerandBrewing

bird said:


> From kegking. It's not on the website but ring them and they should have them.


Thanks mate


----------



## mynameisrodney

OK so I didn't get as much time to play today as I'd hoped. Volume on the sight glass looks pretty much spot on. Temp is off by about 0.5 - 1C vs my thermapen so that's manageable. But didn't get enough time to figure out the controls. Still a bit murky on a few things.

What power setting is used during ramp between steps? The previous or next set point?

On my old system I had a simple timer set up to come on at about 6am so that the water was up to mash temp whenever I got to it in the morning. How do I do this with the guten? 

Are there pauses between the steps? Seems to be conflicting info. 

Cheers, 
Chris


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I use 3000w for ramping and boiling, and 1000w for mashing.

The programming is pretty horrible on this system. I looked in to it at the start but it's more trouble than it's worth IMO.
I think the steps are 3 hours max each, so for overnight you would have to set multiple.
Then the order of pressing the buttons seemed confusing so I gave up.

Are you going to use the hop spider or did you buy a helix or false bottom?


----------



## mynameisrodney

OK good to hear it's not just me haha. I guess I'll just wing it in manual mode tomorrow for the first go.

Maybe going forward I can rig up one of the presets to sit at 20c for 8h, then go to my strike temp and hold. Have that as a separate program, and just reset the guten and go to the program I want when I'm ready? I'll have to think more on that.

Cheers for the power recommendations. I'd put 1500 in for mash but will dial it back.

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## mynameisrodney

Well all done for the day. No major dramas.

The standing false bottom had hardly anything on it though, everything had migrated underneath.

I also think I need to adjust my mill. I'd only done BIAB before today, and I think it's set too fine for the guten. There was a decent amount of grain husks that had made it out of the malt pipe.

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## duncbrewer

I've used the auto program and it's not that intuitive. I find that I use max power on the ramping up phases but set it to 1 minute at a temp just below by a degree or so. This allows for the overshoot and then have the mash temp set and time as the next step and use about 600w if not a full batch.
It's quite a lot of programming but has worked out for step mashes as well. 
I use a home made trub trapper in the bottom of the Guten 70 and don't use the hop spider. I have the helix just laying in the bottom of the kettle and pump out into the fermenter using the recirculate hose.

There is a custom PID that I saw being retrofitted to a brewzilla on a you tube video, it has better software for overshoot prevention etc.


----------



## mynameisrodney

I'll give that a crack next time with a second setpoint to ramp faster. Cheers.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Ok so gearing up for my second brew, the main thing I want to improve on from last time is to have less grain husks make their way through the bottom of the malt pipe. 

As I mentioned before, my mill was adjusted pretty tight for BIAB and I hadn't bothered conditioning my grain before. I will give conditioning a go this time, and widen my mill gap. I did throw in 2 handfuls of rice hulls (didn't weight them).

last time I ran without the top screen for the majority of the mash so that I could stir it. Then for the last 10 minutes I put the screen on so that the flow from the return hose didn't burrow a channel through. I did a full volume mash, and had the return pump fully open for the whole time and didn't see the level rise up to the overflow (not game to remove it just yet). 

One thing which I think may have contributed was having the pump running while I mashed in and when I stirred. This probably pulled stuff through as I was disturbing it, so I'll turn the pump off for those periods next time. 

Other than that, is there anything that sticks out from the above that I should change?

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## bird

Hey Chris. 
I leave my pump off for the first 10minutes after mashing in. I find this helps to let the grain absorb all it's moisture before recirculating and helps to get better flow through the grain bed. I also stir the grain every 10 to 15 minutes which seems to help with efficiency. I haven't used the top plate for a long time. I don't find a need for it just move the pipe to a different spot after stirring. I have my mill gap just under a credit card thickness and have never had husks got through the bottom screen.


----------



## duncbrewer

Even with a few husks going through they get caught by the recirculation anyway. If the grist was too fine you'd think less would go through as it would all set, maybe the stirring is pushing the crushed grains through? I don't stir after 15 minutes and just adjust the pump so the flow balances in and out nicely. I tend to use about 3.5 litres per kg of grain in the mash and similar volume to sparge.


----------



## mynameisrodney

bird said:


> Hey Chris.
> I leave my pump off for the first 10minutes after mashing in. I find this helps to let the grain absorb all it's moisture before recirculating and helps to get better flow through the grain bed. I also stir the grain every 10 to 15 minutes which seems to help with efficiency. I haven't used the top plate for a long time. I don't find a need for it just move the pipe to a different spot after stirring. I have my mill gap just under a credit card thickness and have never had husks got through the bottom screen.


Ok I think that's about what my gap is now. So maybe I wont adjust that yet, I'll see how I go with just conditioning the grain and not recirculating at the start. Cheers


----------



## mynameisrodney

duncbrewer said:


> Even with a few husks going through they get caught by the recirculation anyway. If the grist was too fine you'd think less would go through as it would all set, maybe the stirring is pushing the crushed grains through? I don't stir after 15 minutes and just adjust the pump so the flow balances in and out nicely. I tend to use about 3.5 litres per kg of grain in the mash and similar volume to sparge.


I was pretty surprised that they didn't get picked up by the pump to be honest. Maybe something to do with the standing false bottom? I guess it could have made it through the bottom screen of the malt pipe while mashing, but sat on top of that until after I'd pulled the malt pipe and so didn't get filtered out?

Yeah I think I must have pushed it through. I'm going to stick with no sparge for my first few batches to try to keep it comparable to what I was doing BIAB. Cheers


----------



## dibbz

False bottom will catch everything during the whirlpool where it will cone up in the middle.


----------



## mynameisrodney

dibbz said:


> False bottom will catch everything during the whirlpool where it will cone up in the middle.



Unfortunately this didn't happen for me. I only ran it for 10min after pulling the chiller. Maybe I need to go longer. Pretty much all the trub was underneath the false bottom. I also couldn't find my whirlfloc on brew day, so maybe this stopped it clumping up enough to work properly.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Ok 4th run done on the weekend.


I had to disassemble the sight glass before starting as a spider had made a home in there.
I still am yet to see anything significant build up on top of the false bottom. On Sunday I ran the pump from boiling down to~22. Then pulled the chiller and kept it running another 20min. Then switched the pump off and left it for an hour to settle. Still had probably 90% of the trub under the false bottom.
From mash -> boil I recirced using the std hose into the hop spider. This did a decent job of catching all the husks etc that had made it out of the malt pipe. But eventually became fully blocked. This probably removed 1 - 2 cups of crap.
I bent up a copper pipe and drilled holes through it to use for recirculation during the mash. It sinks slightly into the grain bed but not much. It can easily be moved to the side to stir, but doesn't drill right down to the bottom like when I just use the hose that came with it. Seemed to work well.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## goatchop41

mynameisrodney said:


> I bent up a copper pipe and drilled holes through it to use for recirculation during the mash. It sinks slightly into the grain bed but not much. It can easily be moved to the side to stir, but doesn't drill right down to the bottom like when I just use the hose that came with it. Seemed to work well.



My question with these sort of mods is usually "why?".
We homebrewers seem to have some sort of innate need to complicate things unnecessarily. The unit literally comes with a top plate which does the exact same thing - to stop the recirc. from drilling in to the grain bed, and help to distribute the recirc. + sparge water - so does this mod really do anything significant enough to warrant the time and energy procuring/making it?


----------



## mynameisrodney

Because I can still stir the mash with this in.

Also even when using the top plate, I find that the hose ends up just spraying the wort against one wall.


----------



## Ballaratguy

Mine doesn’t and that’s with the pump running flat out
I leave the top screen off for about 1/4 hour to stir the mash then the top screen goes on. (I’ve only just started to use it too)


----------



## mynameisrodney

So far I've only done single batches in the 70L guten while I get used to it. Maybe the reduced head height makes the flow faster? Maybe when I start doing double batches I'll find I don't use this. In any case, I'm not bothered. I think the time I spent making it is being heavily overestimated. I've spent more time discussing it now than I did making it haha.


----------



## BrewLizard

Reading this thread with keen interest. I've just taken the plunge and ordered a 40L Guten, and subsequently read all 107 pages!

I'm expecting a drop in efficiency (currently 85% with BIAB), but hoping the convenience and temp control will be worth it.

Anyone doing small (8.5–9.5 L) batches? I'm weighing up whether to do a small sparge (maybe 2 L) vs. no sparge at all.


----------



## duncbrewer

BrewLizard said:


> Reading this thread with keen interest. I've just taken the plunge and ordered a 40L Guten, and subsequently read all 107 pages!
> 
> I'm expecting a drop in efficiency (currently 85% with BIAB), but hoping the convenience and temp control will be worth it.
> 
> Anyone doing small (8.5–9.5 L) batches? I'm weighing up whether to do a small sparge (maybe 2 L) vs. no sparge at all.


I did a 10 litre batch in the Robobrew but it was a barley wine so it was a full malt pipe and then I parti gyled so no regular half batch evidence for you.


----------



## mynameisrodney

I think I'm 6 brews in with mine now. Efficiency is down slightly from my BIAB, but way more consistent. Last 3 have been within a few percent of each other. Happy to take the small efficiency hit for improved consistency.


----------



## MHB

Rodney, have a look at your grain crush. You should not be seeing a loss of efficiency with a 1V recirculating system. The main factors that would see a drop are -

The grain bed not being permeable enough, you do need to get a lot more of the recirculating wort going through the grist.
Elements being too hot and killing of some of your enzymes. If you have the controllable power element try turning it down to just enough to hold temp during rests.

Ok mine is a Braumeister but I would be seriously ticked off if efficiency in the fermenter (overall efficiency) was less than low to mid 80's (usually around 84%).
Mark


----------



## BrewLizard

Mark, how about lauter efficiency? It seems you can recover a lot of liquid with BIAB by squeezing, but there doesn't seem to be a good way to do this with the all-in-one systems without risk of damage to your malt pipe.


----------



## MHB

I mostly do full volume brewing for normal gravity beers. Then let the malt pipe drain while the wort heats to a boil.
Which is why I think the issues are more to do with grain bed permeability and possabilly element sizing.
There have been a few discussions about L:G and extract (Ha found it here). Note that the numbers there are all a bit lowball, assumes 0.9L/kg of grist retained and a CGAI of 75%, normally retain a little less and have a slightly higher yield potential to so end up getting a bit more than indicated.
Pouring a little hot treated water through the grist after lifting the malt pipe will get some extra. Not really a sparge, just rinsing some of the extract rich wort from between the grain, a sparge would be a lot slower.
Then again what you use for your sparge has to come out of your total water budget so you get a little lower yield... starts getting very circular. For a commercial brewer were fractions of a percent add up it might be worth spending the extra 90-120 minutes they take to sparge properly, for a home brewer I find if you have a big enough pot going all in or very close to, works better and is definitely a lot faster.

If you aren’t getting first running gravities close to or even slightly better than indicated, you need to look at why.
I think the first two places to look would be as above your crush and how heat is being applied.
I'll probably get flamed but the design quality of your system includes how well wort is recirculated and how heat is applied. I think the Braumeister wins hands down in terms of design and build quality and are worth the extra cost, but that's a personal opinion.
If you do everything the same in terms of water chemistry and all that I can’t see how a recirculating 1V system should be at least the equal of BIAB.
Mark


----------



## mynameisrodney

More than happy to get advice on how to improve. 

My mill gap is set to 0.85mm. 
I've been using 5% rice hulls in each batch.
Power is set to 1200W during the mash.
Mash thickness is set to 3.5 L/kg in brewfather. As I understand it is the thickness in the malt pipe, there is ~9L water in the recoverable deadspace too. Last brew would have been 4.6L/kg including that.
Timing is mash in. Wait 15min before turning pump on. Stir top half or so of mash after 30min. Mash for 60-120 min depending on timing with kids, then 3kW to mashout of 77. Pull the malt pipe and sparge by slowing pouring water over top screen with a jug. Allow to drain while temp comes up to boil or until preboil volume is reached. 
Grain absorption has been about 1-1.1 L/kg for me. 
Last 3 batches were 76%, 75%, 77% brewhouse efficiency. 
BIAB I occasionally got in the high 80s, but often 70ish too, so much less predictable for me. That said, I have been exclusively crushing my own base malt since getting the Guten, whereas previously I would crush some batches myself, others I would buy pre-crushed from various vendors. So Maybe thats more of the source of the variation.
Biggest issue I had on the weekend was safety, not efficiency related. I didnt realise the hose connector on the outlet hose of my chiller had one of those autostop plugs in it. The plug deformed due to the hot water and started cutting in and out, then while I was trying to figure out what was blocked the water hammer blew the hose off the chiller and I got a jet of hot water onto my upper thigh. Got a decent patch of scalded skin. Could have been worse though ~15cm to the side and I would have had a boiled johnson.


----------



## hopnotic

My Guten 70 is now integrated with Brewfather and SmartPID!

I transferred a recipe and was able to control the pump and heating elements from BF. Absolutely stoked.

Something weird going on with the reported temperature (it's not _that_ cold in Melbourne tonight), might be PID calibration or something like that.

A few photos...


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

hopnotic said:


> My Guten 70 is now integrated with Brewfather and SmartPID!
> 
> I transferred a recipe and was able to control the pump and heating elements from BF. Absolutely stoked.
> 
> Something weird going on with the reported temperature (it's not _that_ cold in Melbourne tonight), might be PID calibration or something like that.
> 
> A few photos...
> 
> View attachment 120720
> 
> 
> View attachment 120723
> 
> 
> View attachment 120721
> 
> 
> View attachment 120722


Check your temp probe connection. It's really fiddly and if it's not connected properly it will read weird.


----------



## duncbrewer

hopnotic said:


> My Guten 70 is now integrated with Brewfather and SmartPID!


Have to say that looks awesome, I've been keeping an eye on the PID for this for a while. Would love to hear a few more brew updates. 
Any potential to control the pump flow rate via an electronic valve? Then I wouldn't need to keep adjusting the flow rate during the mash. 
Although I find that the pump seems to be running flat out anyway from about middle mash.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Well here's the results from Sunday after 48h. It was my first double batch, split it between lallemand BRY97 and lallemand Kolsch. Kolsch is a bit of a slow starter. Looking forward to doing more split and double batches.


----------



## hopnotic

duncbrewer said:


> Have to say that looks awesome, I've been keeping an eye on the PID for this for a while. Would love to hear a few more brew updates.
> Any potential to control the pump flow rate via an electronic valve? Then I wouldn't need to keep adjusting the flow rate during the mash.
> Although I find that the pump seems to be running flat out anyway from about middle mash.


The pump is hooked up to one of the built-in relays in the SmartPID, so it's either on or off. There is a spare DC out that is designed to run say a fridge, so technically you could hook it up to a relay to drive a pump. I'm not sure how you would throttle it though, as it won't be governed by a temp sensor.


----------



## Grmblz

Cheap ghetto fix for liquid level control when using a pump:








2.59US $ 38% OFF|Lc25a01 12v Water Level Automatic Controller Liquid Sensor Switch Solenoid Valve Motor Pump Automatic Control Relay Board - Relays - AliExpress


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www.aliexpress.com


----------



## BrewLizard

Anyone still doing delayed starts on these? See @kadmium's post below.

I'm just doing a water-only run on mine to get the temps, boil-off, etc. dialled in. My basic auto program is this:

Heat strike 70°C @ 2400 W for 1 min
Mash at 67°C @ 300 W for 60 min [small batches]
Mash out at 76°C @ 2400 W for 1 min
Bring to boil at 99.9°C @ 2400 W for 1 min
Boil @ 100°C @ 1800 W for 60 min
Hop additions at 30, 15, 10, 5
However, after step 1, it just beeps continuously. I had to press start/stop to get it to move on to step 2.

This definitely seems like the behaviour you'd want for doughing in, so that you can tell it you're done and want it to countdown for the mash, but does this make delayed starts impossible?

Perhaps the firmware has changed on the latest model?

Edit: hmm, it goes from step 2 to step 3 automatically. I can also confirm it pauses before the boil (which is expected behaviour).



kadmium said:


> I have a series of steps on mine (70 strike, 67 mash, 76 MO) with 1 minute pauses in between with power varied. Never press button other than to go to boil from what I remember. Think it's for safety.
> 
> I would program it like this if I were you:
> 
> 1. 5c @ 100w (8 hours or what ever you need)
> 2. Strike @ 2500w (1 minute)
> 3. Mash @ 1000w (60 or what ever)
> 4. Mash Out @ 2500w (1 minute)
> 5. Mash Out @ 1000w (10 m)
> 6. 99.5 @ 2500w (1 minute)
> 7. Boil @ 2000w (60 or what ever)


----------



## duncbrewer

BrewLizard said:


> Anyone still doing delayed starts on these? See @kadmium's post below.
> 
> I'm just doing a water-only run on mine to get the temps, boil-off, etc. dialled in. My basic auto program is this:
> 
> Heat strike 70°C @ 2400 W for 1 min
> Mash at 67°C @ 300 W for 60 min [small batches]
> Mash out at 76°C @ 2400 W for 1 min
> Bring to boil at 99.9°C @ 2400 W for 1 min
> Boil @ 100°C @ 1800 W for 60 min
> Hop additions at 30, 15, 10, 5
> However, after step 1, it just beeps continuously. I had to press start/stop to get it to move on to step 2.
> 
> This definitely seems like the behaviour you'd want for doughing in, so that you can tell it you're done and want it to countdown for the mash, but does this make delayed starts impossible?
> 
> Perhaps the firmware has changed on the latest model?
> 
> Edit: hmm, it goes from step 2 to step 3 automatically. I can also confirm it pauses before the boil (which is expected behaviour).


Roughly similar although I set to 3000 for 1 minute just below mash temp and then dough in during that minute and the heat going in seems to be about right for the mash temp. Mash with about 600 watts, then stepup to next temp ( if a step mash at about 2500) with 1 minute just below target temp and then back to 600w ( or mash out if that's the next temp). Then mash out and full power to raise to 100, less power during boil as lid on using condenser.

Have same issue of needing to press button to move to mash and the boil as you have.

I just set my watch timer for the hop additions.


----------



## mynameisrodney

I pretty much just use the auto mode to delayed heat strike water. I don't understand it well enough for a full auto run.

I have it set to 25C 3kw for 1min.
Then 3x 3h 25C 300w
Then 3kw to 65

Start that program about 10pm. Takes a few min to get to 25 then starts beeping and I press the button to make it quiet. 

Then in the morning I just go to manual mode and whatever my actual strike temp is.


----------



## BrewLizard

Thanks guys. This makes sense. So ultimately you need a 1 min step at a temp that it will reach quickly so that you can be there to click it along to the next step. After that, it will auto-step until the boil stage.

It's also a bit of a shame that you have to hack it to ramp to boil with full power with a 99°C step. This means that you lose the safety feature of it pausing before boiling, and could result in it boiling all your grains. I'll need to give it some more thought, but it might be better to just boil at 2000 W-ish and cop the slower ramp time to keep the safety feature intact.


----------



## duncbrewer

BrewLizard said:


> Thanks guys. This makes sense. So ultimately you need a 1 min step at a temp that it will reach quickly so that you can be there to click it along to the next step. After that, it will auto-step until the boil stage.
> 
> It's also a bit of a shame that you have to hack it to ramp to boil with full power with a 99°C step. This means that you lose the safety feature of it pausing before boiling, and could result in it boiling all your grains. I'll need to give it some more thought, but it might be better to just boil at 2000 W-ish and cop the slower ramp time to keep the safety feature intact.



I started with just the manual method but have grown with confidence using the auto program. 
Sadly the software doesn't dial back the power automatically instead just turns on and off. This is why I have the high watts between temp changes but only for a minute and the interval seems to compensate for the overshoot that would occur if I didn't have that.

Overall it has been more controllable than the robobrew but all of those steps being programmed and checked does make my head spin.

I'm still refining but getting happier. I have the 1 minute at 99 Celsius as a bit of a safety feature as I would get a boil over with the lid on at full power and it reminds me to check the wort is boiling, add hops start timer etc. But I still find I sometimes press the wrong button to stop that beeping alarm.


----------



## BrewLizard

Doing my first brew now (8.5 L batch of Meanbrew's Dark Mild). I'm doing an 8.5 L batch, which is my go-to atm, as I'm loving no-chill with cooling, fermenting and serving from the same 9.5 L keg.

The recipe uses 13.28 L of starting water, of which I heated and reserved 2 L for sparging. The total grain is 1.4 kg + some rice hulls (a few handfuls, which was surprisingly only 50 g or so).

Thought I'd share some thoughts:

I was pleasantly surprised with the mash fluidity, even though there's only a few litres above all that dead space.
Important: you need to press start/stop BEFORE doughing in, or it fights to keep the water at your strike temp and then your mash ends up too hot.
The telescopic overflow pipe is way too tall at the shortest to have any use as a safety feature. I'll be making my own custom fixed length ones from threaded 316 SS pipe (I ordered a 100 and 150 mm).
The mash is prone to getting stuck (TODO: more rice hulls). I kept my BIAB grain crush at 0.8 mm, which is very fine. This leads to a rather empty bottom chamber and hence fluctuating mash temps. This will improve when I install a shorter overflow pipe and can run the pump faster.
The top screen seems useless at directing return flow evenly. I think I'm going to make a spray nozzle with a barb, similar to the Clawhammer Supply system. It will also mean one less thing to clean at the end.
At the boil stage now, and I'm at 88% efficiency based on crude refractometer numbers. Will be very happy if I can hit 80-85% when it's all said and done.

Next step is to try a 5% ABV beer (this one is 3.8%).


----------



## duncbrewer

BrewLizard said:


> Doing my first brew now (8.5 L batch of Meanbrew's Dark Mild). I'm doing an 8.5 L batch, which is my go-to atm, as I'm loving no-chill with cooling, fermenting and serving from the same 9.5 L keg.
> 
> 
> Important: you need to press start/stop BEFORE doughing in, or it fights to keep the water at your strike temp and then your mash ends up too hot.
> The telescopic overflow pipe is way too tall at the shortest to have any use as a safety feature. I'll be making my own custom fixed length ones from threaded 316 SS pipe (I ordered a 100 and 150 mm).
> The mash is prone to getting stuck (TODO: more rice hulls). I kept my BIAB grain crush at 0.8 mm, which is very fine. This leads to a rather empty bottom chamber and hence fluctuating mash temps. This will improve when I install a shorter overflow pipe and can run the pump faster.
> The top screen seems useless at directing return flow evenly. I think I'm going to make a spray nozzle with a barb, similar to the Clawhammer Supply system. It will also mean one less thing to clean at the end.
> At the boil stage now, and I'm at 88% efficiency based on crude refractometer numbers. Will be very happy if I can hit 80-85% when it's all said and done.
> 
> Next step is to try a 5% ABV beer (this one is 3.8%).



Doughing in I do this just before and during the 1 minute at a couple of degrees below mash temp stage. Stops overshoot, then the mash is done with less watts.
Agreed pipe too long, I use my Robobrew one for small grain bills.
I have quite the opposite problem and think it all runs through too fast and that's with a really fine crush using Maltzilla and I use a bit of glucanase instead of rice hulls.
Agreed needs a spray or sparge manifold running on the recirc tube. I struggle to keep the mash bed covered with wort because it runs through so quick. On the rare occasion I've had a lot of sticky adjuncts it has worked but the pump is running flat out to keep it covered.

I'm having a crack at an 8% smoked porter at the weekend and grain bill 10.5 kg for 25 litres in fermenter so we'll see what efficiency I get.


----------



## BrewLizard

I'll try to 3D print a spray nozzle prototype and machine it out of aluminium when I get a chance.

What's the consensus on the false bottom vs. helix coil situation? I can definitely confirm that the bazooka screen clogs too quickly and isn't helpful.

A false bottom seems easier to clean and is less fiddly than a helix coil, but I'm keen to hear if it adequately keeps crud out of the tap and pump inlet.

Cheers


----------



## duncbrewer

BrewLizard said:


> I'll try to 3D print a spray nozzle prototype and machine it out of aluminium when I get a chance.
> 
> What's the consensus on the false bottom vs. helix coil situation? I can definitely confirm that the bazooka screen clogs too quickly and isn't helpful.
> 
> A false bottom seems easier to clean and is less fiddly than a helix coil, but I'm keen to hear if it adequately keeps crud out of the tap and pump inlet.
> 
> Cheers


I've got a spray nozzle on the way from China at the moment, adjustable and was going to use it on my steam condenser.
Current nozzle I have on steam condenser was removed from a new garden sprayer ( made of brass) .

I don't use the hop spider, I started with the helix and then made a trub trapper which has worked well. Photos of it






Advice on All Grain equipment


G'day Brewers! I'm looking to make the leap from extract brewing to all grain brewing as well as increasing the overall volume that I'm brewing and I'm looking for some advice on the right kind of brewing gear to get. I think I've got a handle on the fermenters and the fermentation process as...




aussiehomebrewer.com





cuts down on kettle loss and very little trub into the fermenter.

I also made a whirlpool going back in via the tap, awaiting parts for a 1/2 inch solution. Can see the whirlpool in the photo at about 10 o'clock.
The recirc goes thru coolossus and then the whirlpool.


----------



## JimmyMcFiddlesticks

BrewLizard said:


> What's the consensus on the false bottom vs. helix coil situation?


False bottom is so much better.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Doing single batches in the 70L I didn't find the false bottom was doing much because almost half the batch is underneath it. I dont think it gets a thick enough layer to properly block the holes, and so as soon as I start draining it just pulls through and gets stirred up. I actually got the least amount of trub into the fermenter the time I forgot to put it in. 

Very different story with my double batch. The false bottom had a very thick layer on it and stayed solid apart from a few spots around the sides.


----------



## duncbrewer

Note I didn't use the helix on the tap just as a dam. 
False bottom was fine on the robobrew I had before.


----------



## Ballaratguy

BrewLizard said:


> I'll try to 3D print a spray nozzle prototype and machine it out of aluminium when I get a chance.
> 
> What's the consensus on the false bottom vs. helix coil situation? I can definitely confirm that the bazooka screen clogs too quickly and isn't helpful.
> 
> A false bottom seems easier to clean and is less fiddly than a helix coil, but I'm keen to hear if it adequately keeps crud out of the tap and pump inlet.
> 
> Cheers


I use both the false bottom and the helix coil. Works a treat and with a 6 Kg grain bill I might get about 1/2 litre of trunk in the bottom of my snub nose fermenter
And it pumps out beautifully when the wort has been cooled down to 25 - 30 deg


----------



## mynameisrodney

Ok so I brewed a high gravity (1.081 not including candi syrup going into fermenter) Christmas beer on the weekend. I decided to do an extended boil (2.5h) to give me more mash/sparge water to play with as I thought the mash would be too thick if I didn't. I ended up with some scorching on the bottom of the kettle. Hopefully the batch isn't ruined, I couldn't taste it in the sample I tried, but in the past I have found scorching easier to detect once the beer is finished fermenting. 

I kept it at full power for stepping up to the boil, and for boiling, as I'm only getting ~4lph boil off where others are reporting 5. It hasn't been an issue in any of my other batches, but I guess now I'll drop that down. 

For people brewing high gravity beers in the Guten, whats your go to process? Do you try to keep some water aside for sparging or just do full volume? What brewhouse efficiency do you end up with for your bigger beers?


----------



## duncbrewer

mynameisrodney said:


> For people brewing high gravity beers in the Guten, whats your go to process? Do you try to keep some water aside for sparging or just do full volume? What brewhouse efficiency do you end up with for your bigger beers?


I'll let you know, going to do a 25 litre fermenter volume, 1.085 baltic porter today so we'll see how it goes. 
Planning on 25 litres with the 10.5 kg of grain ( less than normal 3 litre / kg) and then sparge to 30 litres, 90 minute boil ( I get much less boil off as using condenser hood ). Should be about right with kettle loss for fermenter. Grown a big starter that's just settling.

Expecting to use about 15 litres of sparge. I'm boiling with about 800 watts with the lid on.
Still learning.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Awesome, keen to hear how it turns out!


----------



## Coalface

mynameisrodney said:


> Ok so I brewed a high gravity (1.081 not including candi syrup going into fermenter) Christmas beer on the weekend. I decided to do an extended boil (2.5h) to give me more mash/sparge water to play with as I thought the mash would be too thick if I didn't. I ended up with some scorching on the bottom of the kettle. Hopefully the batch isn't ruined, I couldn't taste it in the sample I tried, but in the past I have found scorching easier to detect once the beer is finished fermenting.
> 
> I kept it at full power for stepping up to the boil, and for boiling, as I'm only getting ~4lph boil off where others are reporting 5. It hasn't been an issue in any of my other batches, but I guess now I'll drop that down.
> 
> For people brewing high gravity beers in the Guten, whats your go to process? Do you try to keep some water aside for sparging or just do full volume? What brewhouse efficiency do you end up with for your bigger beers?


Was there much downtime between sparge and boil? I do kettle sours in the warmer months, where I let the lacto go for a couple of days in the guten after the mash. I learned the hard way that the proteins all drop to the bottom and good stir is needed before boiling....


----------



## mynameisrodney

Coalface said:


> Was there much downtime between sparge and boil? I do kettle sours in the warmer months, where I let the lacto go for a couple of days in the guten after the mash. I learned the hard way that the proteins all drop to the bottom and good stir is needed before boiling....



There wasn't. I also run the pump on the way up to boil to try to keep movement over the element. Maybe I didn't get this switched on straight away this time, cant remember. Possibly would have been worse than normal due to high gravity and 1kg of rye in the mix. 

I actually did a kettle sour a couple of brews ago. Same deal there I run the pump through the whirlpool arm while its coming up to temp. 

With my old BIAB setup I only ever ran ~75% max power while heating to avoid scorching and this worked really well for me. With the guten I was expecting the heat to be spread across the base more, but the scorch mark was a well defined ring.


----------



## duncbrewer

@mynameisrodney et al 
Little update on the Smoked porter I did yesterday.
Aiming for 1.087 and 25litre in fermenter. Grain bill below, milled after conditioning at 0.5mm on the maltzilla. Total 10.53 kg.
Used 24 litres of mash water, doughed in at 63 on full power and then mashed for 90 mins at 64 with 700watts.
Slow wort flow during first 40 minutes of mash, temp up and down a bit and had to keep adjusting the flow to try and get the bed just covered.

Mashed out at 76 and then sparged with 14 litres of water at 76.

Pre boil I was at 28 litres so thought with a couple of litres of boil loss I would get to 26 litres and then about one litre of kettle loss. Didn't do a pre boil gravity ( idiot ).

Only managed 24 litres of 1.081 in fermenter. So BHE was 60 % with this.

BUT took malt pipe off after sparge and let it stand over ferment bucket ( it's a perfect fit ) later during boil saw 3.5 litre of runoff aided by a bit of a squeeze and this was 1.055. Thought maybe a small partigyle brew could be made.

Then I poured 4.5 litres of boiling water over the grains ( 2nd sparge) and left it to drain (overnight about 6 hours).

This morning 9.5 litres in the ferment bucket and 1.071 so I boiled this up and hopped it to same ratio and have put it in a separate fermenter with some kveik there was 8.4 litres and OG of 1.077 in the fermenter. Note open boil different boiler and just half hour boil.

So I'm puzzled using brewers friend BHE calculator and compensating for the gravity and volumes I got in the 2 fermenter suggests 32.4 litres at 1.080 and a BHE of 78.84 % . 

Overall that's not bad for a highish gravity beer but the time frame for the full extraction not that practical. My problem seems to be at the sparge extraction stage. Certainly not a stuck sparge as the sparge ran through well, it was not a floating mash bed or covered with water all the time just sprinkling on the grains for about 15 minutes.

Therefore next time if I sparged 16 litres of hotter water perhaps after a really good squeeze and aimed for the same 25 litres I could be in the ball park and I'd need to boil off about 4 litres. But the time for the second lot of runoff was several hours so it's not that useful. Maybe just add the second runoff in increments during the boil? Any ideas?

Finally I just noticed when I was grabbing the grain bill that I'd put the supernova down as an acidulated malt not a base malt. Correcting this suggested I needed 10.65 ml of lactic acid in mash water. But I'd added sodium bicarb as well ( not sure why ) and when I removed that from my water profile it was only wanting 3.5ml to get to a mash pH of 5.2. Was charging around and didn't check the pH ( lesson learnt) or my head as to why I added bicarb, I gave up using it in my profiles a while ago but the porter profile I was miles off for HCO3 so perhaps that was the reason.

Might put this conundrum in a new thread later


----------



## mynameisrodney

Thanks for the write up Duncan. 

Are you sure on those gravity readings? Seems a bit weird to get the second runnings almost as high as the first. Only thing I can think of is that there were pockets of the mash that weren't flowing, so your squeeze got that very high G wort out. Do you stir during the mash?

My brewhouse efficiency was 68% btw, sorry I realised I never posted it. I used 42.5L of water though. I'm ok with 68 if its consistent. Just need to fix the scorching.


----------



## Jazzafish

duncbrewer said:


> @mynameisrodney et al
> Little update on the Smoked porter I did yesterday.
> Aiming for 1.087 and 25litre in fermenter. Grain bill below, milled after conditioning at 0.5mm on the maltzilla. Total 10.53 kg.
> Used 24 litres of mash water, doughed in at 63 on full power and then mashed for 90 mins at 64 with 700watts.
> Slow wort flow during first 40 minutes of mash, temp up and down a bit and had to keep adjusting the flow to try and get the bed just covered.
> 
> Mashed out at 76 and then sparged with 14 litres of water at 76.
> 
> Pre boil I was at 28 litres so thought with a couple of litres of boil loss I would get to 26 litres and then about one litre of kettle loss. Didn't do a pre boil gravity ( idiot ).
> 
> Only managed 24 litres of 1.081 in fermenter. So BHE was 60 % with this.
> 
> BUT took malt pipe off after sparge and let it stand over ferment bucket ( it's a perfect fit ) later during boil saw 3.5 litre of runoff aided by a bit of a squeeze and this was 1.055. Thought maybe a small partigyle brew could be made.
> 
> Then I poured 4.5 litres of boiling water over the grains ( 2nd sparge) and left it to drain (overnight about 6 hours).
> 
> This morning 9.5 litres in the ferment bucket and 1.071 so I boiled this up and hopped it to same ratio and have put it in a separate fermenter with some kveik there was 8.4 litres and OG of 1.077 in the fermenter. Note open boil different boiler and just half hour boil.
> 
> So I'm puzzled using brewers friend BHE calculator and compensating for the gravity and volumes I got in the 2 fermenter suggests 32.4 litres at 1.080 and a BHE of 78.84 % .
> 
> Overall that's not bad for a highish gravity beer but the time frame for the full extraction not that practical. My problem seems to be at the sparge extraction stage. Certainly not a stuck sparge as the sparge ran through well, it was not a floating mash bed or covered with water all the time just sprinkling on the grains for about 15 minutes.
> 
> Therefore next time if I sparged 16 litres of hotter water perhaps after a really good squeeze and aimed for the same 25 litres I could be in the ball park and I'd need to boil off about 4 litres. But the time for the second lot of runoff was several hours so it's not that useful. Maybe just add the second runoff in increments during the boil? Any ideas?
> 
> Finally I just noticed when I was grabbing the grain bill that I'd put the supernova down as an acidulated malt not a base malt. Correcting this suggested I needed 10.65 ml of lactic acid in mash water. But I'd added sodium bicarb as well ( not sure why ) and when I removed that from my water profile it was only wanting 3.5ml to get to a mash pH of 5.2. Was charging around and didn't check the pH ( lesson learnt) or my head as to why I added bicarb, I gave up using it in my profiles a while ago but the porter profile I was miles off for HCO3 so perhaps that was the reason.
> 
> Might put this conundrum in a new thread later
> View attachment 120811



How good are partigyles... Always worthwhile if you have a bucket handy to make starter beers and yeast cakes.

If you ever forget to measure preboil gravities, you can calculate the difference using the known volumes and post boil gravity.
Preboil Volume x Preboil Gravity = Post boil Volume x Post boil Gravity
Therefore 
Preboil Gravity = Postboil Volume x Postboil Gravity / Preboil Volume. Note it needs to be the volume in the same vessel, like the kettle. So assuming you got the anticipated 26L in the kettle... You would have had a preboil gravity of ~1.075 (24 * 81 / 26)

I always find that when you push your equipment past the sweet spot, the efficiency tends to suffer. That said Efficiency will drift a few percent between brews even when inside the sweet spot.

Best thing about electric kettles is the evaporation rate is predictable and consistent. These days I undershoot my efficiency in recipe calculators (set it ~5-10% lower than my average). So I am able to predict and hit my target gravity every brew using the equation above, paired with known evaporation and dilution. Simply letting the volume vary with efficiency (usually get a bit more volume) and locking in the gravity I want to achieve.

I'm not sure why the brewers friend has such a big change, but I wouldn't worry about it. If your beer is good, all is good.


----------



## duncbrewer

mynameisrodney said:


> Thanks for the write up Duncan.
> 
> Are you sure on those gravity readings? Seems a bit weird to get the second runnings almost as high as the first. Only thing I can think of is that there were pockets of the mash that weren't flowing, so your squeeze got that very high G wort out. Do you stir during the mash?
> 
> My brewhouse efficiency was 68% btw, sorry I realised I never posted it. I used 42.5L of water though. I'm ok with 68 if its consistent. Just need to fix the scorching.


Positive on the gravity readings double checked them as seemed odd. 
Yes I do stir doughing in and during the mash.

Our efficiency on first runnings nigh on the same I note.

I don't think that it was over the equipment sweetspot probably nicely mid range really.

Next time I'll pay more attention to the water and pH. Then sparge a bit more and hotter.

The mash is efficient but the extraction isn't, trouble seems to be the flow of sparge too easy straight after mashing, almost need to squeeze it all to get it a bit stuck so the water finds it harder to get through. 
I'm wondering if the maltzilla crushes so well that I have lots of husks intact but with crush on the inside and lots of conversion that the sparge runs around.


----------



## duncbrewer

Jazzafish said:


> How good are partigyles... Always worthwhile if you have a bucket handy to make starter beers and yeast cakes.
> 
> If you ever forget to measure preboil gravities, you can calculate the difference using the known volumes and post boil gravity.
> Preboil Volume x Preboil Gravity = Post boil Volume x Post boil Gravity
> Therefore
> Preboil Gravity = Postboil Volume x Postboil Gravity / Preboil Volume. Note it needs to be the volume in the same vessel, like the kettle. So assuming you got the anticipated 26L in the kettle... You would have had a preboil gravity of ~1.075 (24 * 81 / 26)
> 
> I always find that when you push your equipment past the sweet spot, the efficiency tends to suffer. That said Efficiency will drift a few percent between brews even when inside the sweet spot.
> 
> Best thing about electric kettles is the evaporation rate is predictable and consistent. These days I undershoot my efficiency in recipe calculators (set it ~5-10% lower than my average). So I am able to predict and hit my target gravity every brew using the equation above, paired with known evaporation and dilution. Simply letting the volume vary with efficiency (usually get a bit more volume) and locking in the gravity I want to achieve.
> 
> I'm not sure why the brewers friend has such a big change, but I wouldn't worry about it. If your beer is good, all is good.


Thanks for this info, I'll try some other tactics on bigger beers ( I don't make many) and if not just do the partigyle bigger volume and spread it over 2 days.
I have a clone recipe for Harveys Elizabethan barley wine and could just parti gyle the rest to make some of their best bitter ( if I could get their yeast ) .


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## mynameisrodney

Brewed an IPA on the weekend, had a few issues again. 

A lot crud stuck to the bottom of the kettle again, looked like it was just starting to scorch. For this brew I'd tried turning it down so I didn't go above 2400W for the boil. I think that grain particles that make it out of the malt pipe are settling in the centre of the base, and the flow is too slow to drag them over the raised ring. Not sure what to do about this. 

The false bottom became 100% clogged while whirlpooling. I came back to find the guten half full of foam as it had been drawing air down the sight glass and blowing bubbles out the whirlpool arm. I was worried I might have damaged the pump by running it dry, but it seems to be working fine. Looks like it did a good job oxygenating the wort though as the fermentation took off like a rocket.


----------



## duncbrewer

I'm only boiling at 1000 watts with the lid on and condenser. Were you using whole hops? or pellets?

I wonder what would have happened if you had bunged the end of the sight glass?

I whirlpool flat out to start with and then slow it down via the valve as time goes by so eventually it's hardly anything and then turn it off and leave it to settle for a while. Then pump out into the fermenter.

I'm thinking of doing a bigger vol mash at the weekend for an ipa no sparge or just tiny amount. THen sparge the grains left behind and use that as my mash water for a stout. Given my recent experience of getting high gravity wort out of the second runnings might balance some of those inefficiencies. I'm sure if I could get the sparge slower it would be more effective but no grain crush seems to allow a slow sparge it just drops right through.


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## mynameisrodney

I tried lid on at a lower wattage but wasn't getting a high enough boil off rate and wasn't going to hit my target OG. Would be fine if I'd planned for the lower boil off rate, but not changing halfway through the brew. I might try to just boil some water this way for a few hours to measure what the boil off rate actually is so I have this as another option.

There was 100g of loose pellets in there. I've been turning on the pump as soon as the boil ends. Chiller goes on until temp reads 85 (usually 75ish actual temp), then turn chiller off for whirlpool, then cool back down to as low as I can get it. Pull the chiller out and leave pump running for another 5-10min before turning it off and letting it settle for 30-60min. It was during that last bit of cold whirlpooling that it clogged. I think maybe the chiller kept the hop matter towards the sides as it was cooling down, so that bit of the false bottom clogged early. Next time I might run a spatula around the side after pulling the chiller. 

Good luck for the weekend. Sounds like an exciting brew!


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## duncbrewer

Ahh I see could be that the chiller in the kettle is preventing a good cone in the middle. Was there a cone of hop material or just a flat mat of it?

I'm not getting those concerns about the bottom of the kettle and the heat, I'll take a picture at the weekend to show what mine looks like ( the bit of the kettle base that needs a gentle scrub).

Just working out the hop regime for the IPA base malts pretty happy.

Will update next week, bound to be difficulties, every brew day feels experimental.


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## mynameisrodney

That's the bottom of mine after the last brew. The BSDA was far worse.


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## duncbrewer

Mine has a similar pattern but more sludgy brown not black looking. BSDA?


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## mynameisrodney

BSDA = Belgian strong dark ale. OG was ~1.08 and was an extended boil at full power. That was the first time I'd seen the issue, it was quite black. Previously just some light brown sludge as you say.

With my previous BIAB setup I had some scorching issues early on, but solved it by using one of the kegland power stations to dial the power down up until I reached the boil. At that point there is enough turbulence in the kettle to keep anything from settling on the element. With the guten though dialling down the power doesn't work in the same way, it just changes the duty cycle. So maybe even at the lower power setting it is still getting momentarily too hot on the surface.


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## duncbrewer

Thanks for the translation. 
I didn't realise that the controller worked much like most microwaves, so 80 % power just means it's on for 80 % of the time.

That would explain the peaks and troughs. I thought there was an electronic dimmer on the element wheras the brewzilla with three temp settings was just like turning on more bars of an electric fire.


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## BrewLizard

That's true for very old microwaves. New(er) "inverter" microwaves can set arbitrary power levels.

It is definitely a bit lame that the Guten uses a bang-bang control scheme. While PID is overkill (at the homebrew level) for a plant with such huge inertia (i.e. huge vat of liquid), P control would definitely be good.


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## duncbrewer

I think that inverter microwaves are in the minority hence my feeling about " most microwaves".

Is a takedown and PID fitting the only way to get a finer control on the element? no way to fit a simmerstat to it? or would that theory not work.


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## Ian Mackenzie

I have a 50l Guten and have tried the false bottom . What I do if it's any use is don't use the false bottom. Boil at 2200 watts.
I get some slight discoloring on the bottom at this level but is easy to clean. I tried just throwing the hops in but found that this flattened the cone to much when whirlpooling. I now use a small paint strainer bag for the hops, (about $2.50 at Bunnings for 3). They are easy to clean I get at least 5 brews out of each one. I have stopped using the chiller and now hot cube. This make it a lot easier to whirlpool and I also use brewbrite just before starting the whirlpool. I consistently get about a 4lt/hr boil off. and have a 2 to 3 lts left behind in the Guten . 
I hope this is of some use to you.
Ian


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## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> I think that inverter microwaves are in the minority hence my feeling about " most microwaves".
> 
> Is a takedown and PID fitting the only way to get a finer control on the element? no way to fit a simmerstat to it? or would that theory not work.


I’ve put a grainfather Bluetooth control box on my 40Lt Guten 
It’s awesome you only have to find or input your recipe and the controller does the rest. Instead of reducing the wattage to the heater elements you can set your height above sea level or reduce by % of power required and the controller will keep the heat at that
Where as the Guten controller just turns the elements on or off


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## duncbrewer

@Ballaratguy I remember you mentioned your second hand bluetooth purchase.

I had a lot more success with my two brews yesterday, haven't worked out the numbers yet but no sparge worked well and saved a bit of time. Although I did partigyle the grain whilst the boil was going on which was fruitful.

I'll update once the calculations are done.

Picture of my element at the end cleaning out the rest of the mess of an ipa boil with couple of hundred grams of hops used in the kettle ( this pre the next brew and a bit of a scrub ).


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## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> @Ballaratguy I remember you mentioned your second hand bluetooth purchase.
> 
> I had a lot more success with my two brews yesterday, haven't worked out the numbers yet but no sparge worked well and saved a bit of time. Although I did partigyle the grain whilst the boil was going on which was fruitful.
> 
> I'll update once the calculations are done.
> 
> Picture of my element at the end cleaning out the rest of the mess of an ipa boil with couple of hundred grams of hops used in the kettle ( this pre the next brew and a bit of a scrub ).
> View attachment 120931


From what I can see of the scorch mark (I can’t brew those pictures. Most of the time I can only see the top10% of a picture and with yours none of it. It’s in the too hard basket for admin)
I found with the Guten controller all you can do is try to work out a reduced wattage to give you a physical rolling boil. But my experience with the Guten is that once it gets to temp it shuts down until the temp drops enough for it to start heating 
With the grainfather controller you can set the % of the wattage as it’s boiling


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## MHB

Ian above has a good point; the false bottom sitting over the heating surface will screw up the movement of wort in the kettle; to the point where I would expect scorching. In a kettle the heated wort rises and cooler wort flows down the sides toward the heating surface. Put a big plate in there and you are going to be creating a hot zone above the element. The free movement of wort in the kettle is a fairly important part of how a kettle performs; it effects coagulation of protein, tannin complex precipitation, evaporation of DMS even hop utilisation...

I was under the impression that he FB was only for use with BIAB or a malt pipe and should be taken out with the bag or the malt. Not really something I have paid a huge amount of attention to, as it doesn’t impact on my brewing. I would also think that any well engineered system wouldn't scorch the way people are reporting. Hate to think what a false bottom would be doing to trub collection when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, it has to be playing hob with the movement of trub.
Mark


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## duncbrewer

@Ballaratguy and @MHB
I'm not using a false bottom in mine, just a trubtrapper which is like a big ring, this doesn't impede the boil as outside of the elements nor the whirlpool. 
Hop catching and trub is caught well. 
I don't think that there is any burnt part on the element, sorry if my picture gives that impression the thin gooey layer wipes off with a sponge and cold water and very little effort. Gelatinised something but not burnt. 
@mynameisrodney picture and experience does suggest it was scorched and he is using the false bottom and a higher wattage.


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## sp0rk

MHB said:


> Ian above has a good point; the false bottom sitting over the heating surface will screw up the movement of wort in the kettle; to the point where I would expect scorching. In a kettle the heated wort rises and cooler wort flows down the sides toward the heating surface. Put a big plate in there and you are going to be creating a hot zone above the element. The free movement of wort in the kettle is a fairly important part of how a kettle performs; it effects coagulation of protein, tannin complex precipitation, evaporation of DMS even hop utilisation...
> 
> I was under the impression that he FB was only for use with BIAB or a malt pipe and should be taken out with the bag or the malt. Not really something I have paid a huge amount of attention to, as it doesn’t impact on my brewing. I would also think that any well engineered system wouldn't scorch the way people are reporting. Hate to think what a false bottom would be doing to trub collection when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, it has to be playing hob with the movement of trub.
> Mark


Can confirm, I had some scorching when I used my guten FB for the first time last weekend
my boiloff rate was WAY off as well and I came in at about 1.056 instead of 1.066 where I wanted to be
It also a GIANT pain in the arse to put in, since the spring clip that the malt pipe sits on is welded together and can'tbe popped out, you've got to bend the FB to put it in
I won't be using it again


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## BrewLizard

I definitely don't enjoy putting in and taking out the false bottom. Lots of unpleasant scratching and bending.


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## duncbrewer

Love it, 
Doctor whats the problem ? 
" It's my false bottom its a real pain in the arse "


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## sp0rk

Jeez, I thought this was an inclusive environment
no kink shaming guys!


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## duncbrewer

@sp0rk 
I'm more worried about brewlizard makes my eyes water just reading it.

"I definitely don't enjoy putting in and taking out the false bottom. Lots of unpleasant scratching and bending."


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## mynameisrodney

MHB said:


> Ian above has a good point; the false bottom sitting over the heating surface will screw up the movement of wort in the kettle; to the point where I would expect scorching. In a kettle the heated wort rises and cooler wort flows down the sides toward the heating surface. Put a big plate in there and you are going to be creating a hot zone above the element. The free movement of wort in the kettle is a fairly important part of how a kettle performs; it effects coagulation of protein, tannin complex precipitation, evaporation of DMS even hop utilisation...
> 
> I was under the impression that he FB was only for use with BIAB or a malt pipe and should be taken out with the bag or the malt. Not really something I have paid a huge amount of attention to, as it doesn’t impact on my brewing. I would also think that any well engineered system wouldn't scorch the way people are reporting. Hate to think what a false bottom would be doing to trub collection when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, it has to be playing hob with the movement of trub.
> Mark



This was my thinking too. In my old BIAB setup I removed the false bottom when I pulled the grain bag for this reason. When moving to the guten, I started reading posts in the guten/brewzilla threads about how well the false bottom works for removing the trub, and no reported issues, so I thought the heat must be spreading well enough across the whole bottom of the kettle and making it a non-issue. Maybe this is the case for the 10A versions but the 15A ones get too hot locally? In any case I think I am done with the false bottom. I'll run bareback for a while and see how I go.


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## Hangover68

Starting to look at upgrading my basic BIAB system to a Guten , 40l or 50L.
I have only done single 23l batches so far which would make the 40l unit the ideal size but for the little extra i may as well go for the 50l.
My only concerns are the 15a requirement and doing mostly 23l batches in the 50l unit, i think i read a while ago that small batches were ago but not going to sift thru 110 pages to find where i read it.


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## Grmblz

Hangover68 said:


> My only concerns are the 15a requirement and doing mostly 23l batches in the 50l unit, i think i read a while ago that small batches were ago but not going to sift thru 110 pages to find where i read it.


What exactly is the question? None of this makes any sense. What the hell is "ago"


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## duncbrewer

Hangover68 said:


> Starting to look at upgrading my basic BIAB system to a Guten , 40l or 50L.
> I have only done single 23l batches so far which would make the 40l unit the ideal size but for the little extra i may as well go for the 50l.
> My only concerns are the 15a requirement and doing mostly 23l batches in the 50l unit, i think i read a while ago that small batches were ago but not going to sift thru 110 pages to find where i read it.


Well I regularly do fermenter batches of 23 to 30 litres in the Guten 70 litre.
It's not just the volume of your batch but also the gravity, if you wanted to make 20 litres of high gravity beer in one batch on the 40 you wouldn't manage it. Little more volume gives you flexibility and reduces boil stress on smaller batches.


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## Hangover68

Grmblz said:


> What exactly is the question? None of this makes any sense. What the hell is "ago"



Typo, should be "ok". Its pretty clear what i was asking.


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## Hangover68

duncbrewer said:


> Well I regularly do fermenter batches of 23 to 30 litres in the Guten 70 litre.
> It's not just the volume of your batch but also the gravity, if you wanted to make 20 litres of high gravity beer in one batch on the 40 you wouldn't manage it. Little more volume gives you flexibility and reduces boil stress on smaller batches.



I dont do HG brews yet but that is also a consideration for upsizing.


----------



## Jayvan90

Hangover68 said:


> Starting to look at upgrading my basic BIAB system to a Guten , 40l or 50L.
> I have only done single 23l batches so far which would make the 40l unit the ideal size but for the little extra i may as well go for the 50l.
> My only concerns are the 15a requirement and doing mostly 23l batches in the 50l unit, i think i read a while ago that small batches were ago but not going to sift thru 110 pages to find where i read it.


Hi Hangover,
I have a 40l guten and it’s ideal for single keg production. I scale recipes for 21l of wort into old 23l mytton rod kegs with cut dip tube, after cold crash and fining I get a full 19l serving keg of clean beer with minimum waste. If I was going to double batch I would buy a 70l but 18months in on the 40l I’m happy what I output. Hope that helps some.


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## Grmblz

Hangover68 said:


> Typo, should be "ok". Its pretty clear what i was asking.


Sorry mate maybe a seniors moment, but you appeared to be asking a couple of different questions, and "ago" had me stumped.
Fwiw a 10 amp circuit/socket will run 15 amps no problem, just think about a kettle and a toaster plugged into a 10 amp double socket, all good, just make sure nothing else is turned on, on that circuit. Will probably get fried by the correctness police for that nugget but it is what it is, and no! you will not burn your house down, worst case is you'll trip a fuse if someone turns something on.
As for size it's a bit like power in a car or bike, you may never need that extra grunt, but it's nice to have it there as an option, and I'll guarantee one day you'll wish you had the 70L. It's all about keeping your options open.


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## duncbrewer

Grmblz said:


> Sorry mate maybe a seniors moment, but you appeared to be asking a couple of different questions, and "ago" had me stumped.
> Fwiw a 10 amp circuit/socket will run 15 amps no problem, just think about a kettle and a toaster plugged into a 10 amp double socket, all good, just make sure nothing else is turned on, on that circuit. Will probably get fried by the correctness police for that nugget but it is what it is, and no! you will not burn your house down, worst case is you'll trip a fuse if someone turns something on.
> As for size it's a bit like power in a car or bike, you may never need that extra grunt, but it's nice to have it there as an option, and I'll guarantee one day you'll wish you had the 70L. It's all about keeping your options open.


aye to that. 

Damm this bold font though.


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## duncbrewer

@Grmblz
The 15A models have a different plug on them so I did have to fit a 15 amp socket in the brew room for it. But I suppose I could have just swapped the plug over especially as the socket was a dedicated RCD fused 20 amp spur to the brewery ( wife insists on calling it the laundry most perplexing ).


----------



## Ballaratguy

Or if you are electrically minded you can make up a small extension lead with a 10amp male & 15amp female. (I’ve made up a couple of these for my welders that came with 15amp plugs but the PowerPoints that I use are 10 amp on a 15 amp circuit)


----------



## sp0rk

Ballaratguy said:


> Or if you are electrically minded you can make up a small extension lead with a 10amp male & 15amp female. (I’ve made up a couple of these for my welders that came with 15amp plugs but the PowerPoints that I use are 10 amp on a 15 amp circuit)


I did this with a decent quality HPM lead (cut the 15A male plug off and added a decent 10A one), but now the active line on the female plug has started burning :/
For reference, it's plugged into a 20A circuit in my garage, so NFI why this is happening other than shitty quality materials
Time to lop the plug off and install a higher quality female plug


----------



## Grmblz

sp0rk said:


> I did this with a decent quality HPM lead (cut the 15A male plug off and added a decent 10A one), but now the active line on the female plug has started burning :/
> For reference, it's plugged into a 20A circuit in my garage, so NFI why this is happening other than shitty quality materials
> Time to lop the plug off and install a higher quality female plug


It's a bloody minefield, when talking about fittings/cable/flex there's different ratings for temp's according to the materials used in manufacture, for example a cable might be rated to 90c, but fit it to a plug/socket rated for 60c, pull some serious current and watch the connector melt. The problem is the cheap stuff has ratings that are downright lies, and Australia is flooded with this crap, I recently "upgraded" a couple of plugs and sockets, they were Auber 20amp Leviton 240V 20A NEMA L6-20P Plug [L6-20P] - $11.50 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry is the plug, as they were getting a bit warm, I got 30amp units from Amazon (cheap) yep! despite rated at 10amps more, up in f***g smoke, currently (pun intended) waiting on 30 amp connectors from Auber, it seems that the Yank and Pommie stuff is still reliable, EU might be ok as well, but anything from Lucky Happy Flying Dragon needs to be treated with extreme caution, caveat emptor. 
fwiw This applies to cable as well, probably why you're burning the active, after several failures I've chucked all my premade leads (Big green shed) and replaced with homemade, touch wood no problems since.


----------



## Grok

Grmblz said:


> It's a bloody minefield, when talking about fittings/cable/flex there's different ratings for temp's according to the materials used in manufacture, for example a cable might be rated to 90c, but fit it to a plug/socket rated for 60c, pull some serious current and watch the connector melt. The problem is the cheap stuff has ratings that are downright lies, and Australia is flooded with this crap, I recently "upgraded" a couple of plugs and sockets, they were Auber 20amp Leviton 240V 20A NEMA L6-20P Plug [L6-20P] - $11.50 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry is the plug, as they were getting a bit warm, I got 30amp units from Amazon (cheap) yep! despite rated at 10amps more, up in f***g smoke, currently (pun intended) waiting on 30 amp connectors from Auber, it seems that the Yank and Pommie stuff is still reliable, EU might be ok as well, but anything from Lucky Happy Flying Dragon needs to be treated with extreme caution, caveat emptor.
> fwiw This applies to cable as well, probably why you're burning the active, after several failures I've chucked all my premade leads (Big green shed) and replaced with homemade, touch wood no problems since.


The cheap stuff can be ok, but you have to pay attention to the dry connections of the series of conductors that make up the extension cords. If there is excessive heat in one spot, at the "dry joint", then that is where the most resistance is, find the reason for that. Usually it's crap/oxidization/dirty contacts that are the problem and cleaning the metal and tightening up screws, spring clips etc will fix the issue. Use solder, or coat with solder where you can will help considerably. It's why gold coating is the best, because it doesn't oxidize. If the whole cord gets warm and stays constant, its handling the current, hot is not good and an upgrade is needed, or lower the electrical load. 
It's all about resistance!


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## mynameisrodney

Today's efforts. Double batch of pale ale split between verdant and s04, and a single batch of black ipa.

First time doing two beers in one day. Just finished now, but I didn't start until 10am after dropping kids to daycare. Also 2nd batch got a 2.5h mash while I did dinner/bath/bed with the kids. So all in all not too shabby. Trying to cram as many in as I can as I'm getting some renos done and won't be able to brew for a few months.

3 brews in without the false bottom now. Pump has clogged on all 3 haha. But no sign of scorching. I think the clogged pump is easier to deal with, even if it is annoying.


----------



## duncbrewer

@mynameisrodney 
Good effort, if you get a T piece duotight you can use one spunding valve on two brews! 
Not sure how you find that metal spunding valve, mine a slightly different design with more joints on it, but the twiddly bit at the end to adjust the pressure was quite loose and changed outflow not just with twisting but also lateral pressure and need the skills of a safecracker to set it reliably. Fixed the issue though by unscrewing the end bit and putting some PTFE tape on it which stopped that problem completely and it now works quite well.
I'm just not getting the pump blockages ( touch wood ) fairly sure it must be due to no false bottom and the trub traps I made. Have just ordered a hop rocket to get the cold break out of the wort during transfer and for other uses. I think it should cut the kettle loss by 40% on a 125 gram hop in kettle brew. 
Due to brew a bitter tomorrow to dispense on the beer engine in a few weeks time. Will be able to concentrate on the numbers this time as I've been a bit slack on collecting my losses and so getting final volumes and correct graities has been a bit hit and miss. But I'm getting closer to a working profile and a solid efficiency I reckon. Time will tell. Crush is good, salts and pH good, mash volume and +- sparge are areas to improve.


----------



## mynameisrodney

Thanks Dunc, yeah I need to get one of those trub trappers. I'm finding the pump goes fine until I've cooled down to about 40 and then it starts to clog.

Good point on the t piece. I have some lying around. That fermenter actually has a 15psi so my plan was to just use the blow off until fermentation was done, and then remove it and rely on the valve as long as krausen hasn't reached the lid (shouldn't, I used defoamer). The other 2 spunding valves are wide open for now anyway.

The brass spunding valve has its pros and cons. You can set it to an approx value without it being under pressure which is handy, it's not super accurate, but ballpark. Problem is that it has a slow leak. Its fine when fermentation is very active, but once it's stopped it leaks down to about 3 or 4 psi. Keg lube on the inner o ring helps, but eventually it starts leaking again.


----------



## duncbrewer

@mynameisrodney
I've had two of my metal ones leak as well.
Both had cracks in the metal joins one that the gauge connects too which I was able to replace with the spare that was left over after another of the joins on the other metal one failed.

I modified the design with different connectors to solve the problem on the one that had an inline joint failure at that time I also changed the gauge.

Pictures of the crack in the T piece
Also the modded and repaired plus PTFE, both working fine now.
I'd say that the modded design is the best especially as it hangs down and so any condensation is able to drip down ie not back into the beer thru the post or into the gauge.

I made my trubtrapper, you need some fine stainless mesh mine has holes bigger than on a hop spider but hop spider sized holes I think would be best.
The top was made from an 8mm stainless steel threaded bar for concrete tying ( bought from bunnings ) a real bugger to bend but cut okay with angle grinder, hacksaw was a nightmare. The rubber bit on the bottom was edging silicone that I bought on Aliexpress and it just slides over the edge of the mesh.
I'm going to fit some side bits on the side of the trubtrap to act as a final trub dam near the drain and to help make sure it drops in the right position. The trubtrapper on the portly gentleman website made by brewtools has a silicone guide on it that fits over the central tube on the brewtools kit. We don't have that so had to go a different route.
With the whirlpool it's working well and should be even better with the next mods ( I hope ).


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Has anyone replaced the power switch on their guten? Can't find spares on KK. There's the one for the brewzilla but it looks like it only has 2 terminals on each side, where as the guten one has 3 terminals on each side. 

I've changed the standard controller to the smart PID but it still uses the 3 terminals. 

Is there a way to get the brewzilla one working?


----------



## BrewLizard

It's probably a SPDT switch, used as a SPST. SPDT are more common, and can be wired as SPST by just using the middle terminal + one of the outer terminals.


----------



## Jayvan90

I also did the smart Pid install.. I metered the 3rd pole on the switch it is not part of the switch circuit so a 2 pole switch will be fine for the you needs as it only breaks the acitive path to power the Pid and energise the pump switch

edit - this should be energise the SSR heating element circuit not pump switch 
The pump is energised from the active pole before the switch.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Jayvan90 said:


> I also did the smart Pid install.. I metered the 3rd pole on the switch it is not part of the switch circuit so a 2 pole switch will be fine for the you needs as it only breaks the acitive path to power the Pid and energise the pump switch


So if I connect all the power wires together on one terminal it should work?

I'll get my sparky mate to check it before powering up just in case.


----------



## Jayvan90

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> So if I connect all the power wires together on one terminal it should work?
> 
> I'll get my sparky mate to check it before powering up just in case.


If you don’t make the connection to the switch where I have circled and put a cross it won’t make any difference to how the unit operates, the diagram is just demonstrating how to use the existing wiring and where to add new wires for the retrofit - double check with your Sparkie mate for piece of mind


----------



## Jayvan90

WRG32F7BBBKN | ZF Double Pole Single Throw (DPST), On-None-Off Rocker Switch Panel Mount | RS







au.rs-online.com





Check the dimensions on this one - it looks like it might be a suitable replacement switch


----------



## duncbrewer

Did you fit the smartPID? and / or who did you source it from or the alternative?

How do you find it effects the temperature control?

I thought I done all the Guten upgrades I wanted but now I'm thinking?

Just fitted three way tap in main up pipe and swapped out the tap for a half inch ball lock valve, it's really improved the flow for whirlpool and to the coolossus, with a lot less hassle.


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> Did you fit the smartPID? and / or who did you source it from or the alternative?
> 
> How do you find it effects the temperature control?
> 
> I thought I done all the Guten upgrades I wanted but now I'm thinking?
> 
> Just fitted three way tap in main up pipe and swapped out the tap for a half inch ball lock valve, it's really improved the flow for whirlpool and to the coolossus, with a lot less hassle.
> View attachment 121155
> View attachment 121157
> View attachment 121156
> View attachment 121158


I went pretty crazy on mine also mate


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> Did you fit the smartPID? and / or who did you source it from or the alternative?
> 
> How do you find it effects the temperature control?
> 
> I thought I done all the Guten upgrades I wanted but now I'm thinking?
> 
> Just fitted three way tap in main up pipe and swapped out the tap for a half inch ball lock valve, it's really improved the flow for whirlpool and to the coolossus, with a lot less hassle.
> View attachment 121155
> View attachment 121157
> View attachment 121156
> View attachment 121158


I have only had one brew with the PID since the SSR had a meltdown - replaced with a much better one and have only had a test run so far with water - however the temps have been more accurate and stable just in the tests.
Yes I fitted the Smart PID purchased from Italy myself with no problems and have it connected to internet and remote controlled by Brewfather which is great for dropping the recipe mash schedule to the PID as well as not having to navigate trying to enter recipes manually into the unit.


----------



## duncbrewer

Ahh that's nice work. Guess I'd need a pretty solid relay for the Guten 70. Might wait till nearer christmas before going on the PID route.

My whirlpool a little shorter and more parallel to the kettle edge than yours and just using the inbuilt pump, which is pretty powerful on the 70, I narrowed the exit down for the whirlpool which also helped increase the whirlpool speed.
Glass lid no good with my condenser.


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> Ahh that's nice work. Guess I'd need a pretty solid relay for the Guten 70. Might wait till nearer christmas before going on the PID route.
> 
> My whirlpool a little shorter and more parallel to the kettle edge than yours and just using the inbuilt pump, which is pretty powerful on the 70, I narrowed the exit down for the whirlpool which also helped increase the whirlpool speed.
> Glass lid no good with my condenser.
> View attachment 121171
> View attachment 121172



The one I used would be fine for the 70l, I use the internal pump for recirc only and it’s also controlled via the PID program. I use the larger external pump for whirlpool and cooling - I have a third pump that runs the cooling water in bucket that I add 14kg blocks of ice to .. I can get down to 18c in about 35mins


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Jayvan90 said:


> I went pretty crazy on mine also mate


Are they the cheeky peak bulkheads that you used for those 3 piece ball valves? I've tried a couple of methods to replace the standard tap without much success.


----------



## Jayvan90

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Are they the cheeky peak bulkheads that you used for those 3 piece ball valves? I've tried a couple of methods to replace the standard tap without much success.


Yes cheeky ones .. one was in what they called a “whirlpool kit”


----------



## duncbrewer

Thanks @Jayvan90 
Didn't realise the PID controlled the pump as well, just on or off for pump or rate as well? 
Not sure how quick the coolossus is, but our ground water is about 16 celsius and so I just use the water for washing brew kit or on the garden. 
I just attached my half inch ball lock with a male to male adapter, washer and the bulkhead nut and washer.


----------



## Jayvan90

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Are they the cheeky peak bulkheads that you used for those 3 piece ball valves? I've tried a couple of methods to replace the standard tap without much success.


This 





NANO Quick Seal Whirlpool Set – 304SS 3 Piece Ball Valve Set & Whirlpool Elbow – Cheeky Peak Brewery







cheekypeakbrewery.com.au




and this 





NANO Quick Seal Dump Valve – 304SS 3 Piece Ball Valve Set – Cheeky Peak Brewery







cheekypeakbrewery.com.au


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> Thanks @Jayvan90
> Didn't realise the PID controlled the pump as well, just on or off for pump or rate as well?
> Not sure how quick the coolossus is, but our ground water is about 16 celsius and so I just use the water for washing brew kit or on the garden.
> I just attached my half inch ball lock with a male to male adapter, washer and the bulkhead nut and washer.


It doesn’t control flow only on off for the pump, I just use the ball valve that came with the unit to set flow .. you can control a HLT as well as a second pump if you want to start going down that rabbit hole but that also means wires out to separate units etc etc


----------



## Grok

Jayvan90 said:


> I have only had one brew with the PID since the SSR had a meltdown


If I was you, I would leave the compartment lid off for air flow, and maybe get a small CPU cooling fan as well for the heatsink. Those SSR would use a triac component, and they generate a lot of heat when full current is going through them, you need to wick it away as quick as possible. Your certainly looking for trouble in a small closed compartment with no fan forced air flow.

That third terminal that seems is not part of the power switching on the Guten, would be to have the light come on when the switch is turned on, you need to attach the "neutral" to it. That switch assembly is actually a double switch, one for PCB, and one for the pump.


----------



## Jayvan90

Grok said:


> If I was you, I would leave the compartment lid off for air flow, and maybe get a small CPU cooling fan as well for the heatsink. Those SSR would use a triac component, and they generate a lot of heat when full current is going through them, you need to wick it away as quick as possible. Your certainly looking for trouble in a small closed compartment with no fan forced air flow.
> 
> That third terminal that seems is not part of the power switching on the Guten, would be to have the light come on when the switch is turned on, you need to attach the "neutral" to it. That switch assembly is actually a double switch, one for PCB, and one for the pump.



Thanks Grok, with the lid off or on that compartment there would be little to no airflow either way as that is the base that it sits on, was going to check in on the ssr after each brew for the first few to make sure it was coping as it will be difficult to mount any kind of fan without it just blowing hot air from the compartment under the heating element around.
I hadn’t considered the light in the switch but if going to a 2 pole replacement it doesn’t matter too much since the PID screen will light up and make the switch light redundant to a degree. Also correct on the double switch with one used for the pump- with the pid retrofit that switch becomes redundant as the pump is switched via the pid.


----------



## duncbrewer

I've just been looking on the smartpid website. Do you think it can cope with a 3000w element?


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> I've just been looking on the smartpid website. Do you think it can cope with a 3000w element?


Here is the SSR I used to replace the melted one, it’s rated to 40amps up to 280v 
RS PRO 40 A rms SPNO Solid State Relay, Zero Cross, Panel Mount, TRIAC, 280 V ac Maximum Load | RS Components


----------



## Grok

Your old SSR was 40A, they are capable, but you need to have good heat dissipation to use the higher currents. Do the maths: 3000w divided by 240v= 12.5amps
I would at the very least drill air vent holes above and below the SSR heat sink to allow natural convection to occur, cool air will come in from the bottom and rise through into the element compartment which will actually help heating the kettle as well (a bit!). Also I have put a rat tail file over my base to allow more incoming air, see photo.


----------



## Jayvan90

Grok said:


> Your old SSR was 40A, they are capable, but you have to have good heat dissipation to use the higher currents. Do the maths: 3000w divided by 240v= 12.5amps
> I would at the very least drill air vent holes above and below the SSR heat sink to allow natural convection to occur, cool air will come in from the bottom and rise through into the element compartment which will actually help heating the kettle as well (a bit!). Also I have put a rat tail file over my base to allow more incoming air, see photo.
> View attachment 121176


Good call on the holes Grok thanks ! - also when I did some research on the fotek SSRs it seems they are prone to failures so I just accepted that it was possible I got a bad one and replaced it with the one I did figuring that my 2500w element at full power is just a little over 10amps and well under the rating of the replacement SSR. Will get the drill out tomorrow morning !

also while researching the fotek ssr I found a great YouTube of a guy testing the temp of the ssr with different loads - at around 10amp load for over an hour the ssr heat sink temp stabilised at about 48c so this added to my conclusion of having a faulty ssr in the first instance.


----------



## duncbrewer

@Grok 
Good advice, I wanted my maths checked, thanks for confirming I haven't forgotten it all. I think that jayvan90 has only 2500 watts on his Guten, but not totally sure.

I've got some fairly heavy duty PC chip heatsinks with inbuilt fans so I think come the day I'll see if I can fit that on instead of that rather inefficient looking heatsink and fit a bit of ducting to allow cooler air in and hot air out. Probably good for all of the electronics to keep them a bit cooler. 
The Guten 70 doesn't sit on a complete ring of plastic but has gaps of several cm between the supporting parts of the plastic base ring and also a vent grille in the side of the base which I can put the ducting onto.
Should be a cool solution.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Got it working with a 2 terminal switch, thanks for the info @Jayvan90. Got the smart PID tuned in and it's now sitting just under by 0.2c max or spot on the set point, which I'm more than happy with.

Those mods for whirlpooling and CF chilling are something I want to do next. You guys have given me inspiration. 

Cheers


----------



## Jayvan90

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Got it working with a 2 terminal switch, thanks for the info @Jayvan90. Got the smart PID tuned in and it's now sitting just under by 0.2c max or spot on the set point, which I'm more than happy with.
> 
> Those mods for whirlpooling and CF chilling are something I want to do next. You guys have given me inspiration.
> 
> Cheers



Don’t forget to back off the boil power a bit or you will get a bit of scorchio like I did !


----------



## duncbrewer

back it off to about 800w if you are using the condenser lid on the Guten 70.


----------



## hopnotic

Jayvan90 said:


> I went pretty crazy on mine also mate


Jeepers I have that same SSR that came with the SmartPID on my Guten 70. I think it's time for a replacement!


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

@Jayvan90 what are you using to filter the trub and hops when you're whirlpooling and chilling?


----------



## Jayvan90

hopnotic said:


> Jeepers I have that same SSR that came with the SmartPID on my Guten 70. I think it's time for a replacement!


It should be fine - I spoke with Davide from smartPID about it and we accepted that it may have just been a bad one - he said it’s happened only twice since he has been selling the kits. I realised I had a problem when it took 75 mins to get from 22c to 50c @ 100% power


----------



## Jayvan90

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> @Jayvan90 what are you using to filter the trub and hops when you're whirlpooling and chilling?


Hey Crazy, I have the lauter helix and false bottom and both have advantages and disadvantages. I have however ditched both and have a right angle faced toward the bottom. Post whirlpool/cooling I will let settle out before pumping to fermenter where I use a sieve to catch any random hop matter that gets picked up .. I don’t worry too much about any break material that ends up getting through .. I am also working on a different solution so will report back with pics if it ends up working out


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Jayvan90 said:


> Hey Crazy, I have the lauter helix and false bottom and both have advantages and disadvantages. I have however ditched both and have a right angle faced toward the bottom. Post whirlpool/cooling I will let settle out before pumping to fermenter where I use a sieve to catch any random hop matter that gets picked up .. I don’t worry too much about any break material that ends up getting through .. I am also working on a different solution so will report back with pics if it ends up working out


How far is that elbow from the bottom?
Cheers


----------



## Jayvan90

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> How far is that elbow from the bottom?
> Cheers


The picture doesn’t show it very well but half is hard to the bottom on the ring around heating plate and the other half of the opening has about 4mm gap over the top of the second ring out from centre. This is on a 40L can, the bottom of the 70 may be different. It was just how it worked out fitting the cheeky kit to the hole that housed the tap it shipped with


----------



## duncbrewer

@FarsideOfCrazy
I'm using a home made trubtrapper to catch the whirlpool hops, it catches a lot of the break as well, but not all of it. I did try the helix coil just laying in the bottom as a ring ( joining it to itself was better than with the T piece it had a flusher fit ). I've just bought the hop missile so will be adding that into the system with some hulls in to catch some more of the break or use it as a hop back depending on the recipe.










The first trubtrapper I made was for my Robobrew 3.0 so was a bit smaller and had larger mesh in it, still pretty good at catching the hops, I added the helix as a second line of defence and then dropped the helix and made a larger diameter trubtrapper with finer mesh. I should have gone even finer with the mesh on the second one.


----------



## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> @FarsideOfCrazy
> I'm using a home made trubtrapper to catch the whirlpool hops, it catches a lot of the break as well, but not all of it. I did try the helix coil just laying in the bottom as a ring ( joining it to itself was better than with the T piece it had a flusher fit ). I've just bought the hop missile so will be adding that into the system with some hulls in to catch some more of the break or use it as a hop back depending on the recipe.
> View attachment 121202
> View attachment 121203
> View attachment 121206
> View attachment 121207
> 
> 
> View attachment 121209
> View attachment 121201
> 
> 
> The first trubtrapper I made was for my Robobrew 3.0 so was a bit smaller and had larger mesh in it, still pretty good at catching the hops, I added the helix as a second line of defence and then dropped the helix and made a larger diameter trubtrapper with finer mesh. I should have gone even finer with the mesh on the second one.


Hmmm you got me thinking with this. I use the helix coil and a false bottom but maybe I’ll try a trubtrapper under the false bottom as well
(The false bottom has made quite a difference with capturing solids)


----------



## duncbrewer

@Ballaratguy 
Yes you could fix the trubtrapper under the false bottom so that when you dropped it in it would be positioned nicely and seat well on the bottom.
You could have the helix in there as well.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

duncbrewer said:


> @FarsideOfCrazy
> I'm using a home made trubtrapper to catch the whirlpool hops, it catches a lot of the break as well, but not all of it. I did try the helix coil just laying in the bottom as a ring ( joining it to itself was better than with the T piece it had a flusher fit ). I've just bought the hop missile so will be adding that into the system with some hulls in to catch some more of the break or use it as a hop back depending on the recipe.
> View attachment 121202
> View attachment 121203
> View attachment 121206
> View attachment 121207
> 
> 
> View attachment 121209
> View attachment 121201
> 
> 
> The first trubtrapper I made was for my Robobrew 3.0 so was a bit smaller and had larger mesh in it, still pretty good at catching the hops, I added the helix as a second line of defence and then dropped the helix and made a larger diameter trubtrapper with finer mesh. I should have gone even finer with the mesh on the second one.


I was going to make something like that trub trapper as I've got some fine SS mesh.

Where did you get silicone rubber seal from, eBay?

Cheers


----------



## duncbrewer

@FarsideOfCrazy 
I got the seal from here









4.07US $ 32% OFF|1 Meter Translucent Red Gray Black Silicone Rubber U- Type Sealing Strip Glass Metal Wood Panel Edge Trim Door Window Edge Guard - Sealing Strips - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




www.aliexpress.com





The one I got was 6x10 mm but a little wider would provide a better footprint on the kettle bottom, but it is higher so would perhaps hold more wort back.

Not sure why I went for the red, should have gone for translucent. 
If you aren't going to anchor it down with a false bottom then you do need some weight to it.
Ideally would be a stainless steel ring and the rubber over that. I used an 8mm stainless steel threaded rod for concrete ( I think ) that I got from Bunnings. It was a sod to bend.
Have a look at 





Trubinator™ S Ø320 - Brewtools EU


This product is assembled in-house and may be in stock for shipping regardless of stock status reflected here. Trubinator is a product for use in your br...




www.brewtools.com





for general design plans.


----------



## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> @Ballaratguy
> Yes you could fix the trubtrapper under the false bottom so that when you dropped it in it would be positioned nicely and seat well on the bottom.
> You could have the helix in there as well.


Done


----------



## duncbrewer

That's looking good, obviously want a good seal on the bottom of the kettle otherwise it will all run underneath. My first small trubtrapper I put a piece of silicone hose split down it's length over the fit edge to contact the kettle bottom.


----------



## Jayvan90

Ok @FarsideOfCrazy reporting back on my (possibly dubious and not yet tested) trub solution as I am awaiting another whirlpool attachment.
I have butchered the false bottom to make this.. I abandoned the false bottle a while ago as I was experiencing really interesting boil activity. The false bottom was doing a good job of keeping trub and hops out from underneath it but I would get this weird thing where the wort level would increase as it boiled then the boil would appear to collapse and the wort level would drop 50mm or so and completely stop boiling. This would repeat until I was done. Anyways i was not particularly confident that this was doing my beer making any good so now …
The false bottom is my trub stopper !
The idea being keeping the heating element clear so it doesn’t impede the boil and to create a well for the trub. I also did a redo on the pickup tube figuring if whirlpooling gets all the bits you don’t want toward the centre then the closer to the outer edge of the can the less trub is likely to be there to pick up.
The whirlpool fitting is above the top of false bottom so it pumps out from underneath the trub stopper and delivers above.
Will report back with pictures if / when the results appear positive


----------



## duncbrewer

Interesting will await test results. 

I had to send the hop missile back as the bottom part of the cylinder bit was knife sharp along with the bit that fitted into it. 
Suggested that I filed it down by the company that made it!! 

Supplier wanted it back though to assess themselves.


----------



## Jayvan90

One other thing I have done to help keep bits out of the wort .. I bought the reinforced malt pipe bottom having seen other tell tales of bottoms dropping out, so sandwiched some fine SS mesh in between the the two malt pipe bottoms for some extra filtering


----------



## duncbrewer

Strange, no such problems with the Guten 70 of bottom dropping out or wort bits, the robobrew 3 had an extra bit of mesh in the bottom I recall.


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> Strange, no such problems with the Guten 70 of bottom dropping out or wort bits, the robobrew 3 had an extra bit of mesh in the bottom I recall.


Yes there are 2 different bottoms for the 40L .. the one with the folded ribs is the reinforced one .. probably unnecessary with recirc and grain bed filtering but I had the mesh lying around and when I pull apart to clean it’s always caught a bunch of crud so I continue to use it


----------



## duncbrewer

Small bits of crud should be able to go thru the pump fine and as the grain bed settles in will get caught by the grains at the top. So well before the end of mash the wort should be running crystal clear. Any that is left in the kettle during the boil will come to the surface and you can skim those bits off with a tea strainer.

That said slowing down the mash bed is something I want to do as sparging is so fast unless I compact the grain bed with the top plate before sparging. Although I've recently had better results with no sparge as I've got a bit more capacity in the 70. Thanks to @MHB for the tips re that plan.


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> Small bits of crud should be able to go thru the pump fine and as the grain bed settles in will get caught by the grains at the top. So well before the end of mash the wort should be running crystal clear. Any that is left in the kettle during the boil will come to the surface and you can skim those bits off with a tea strainer.
> 
> That said slowing down the mash bed is something I want to do as sparging is so fast unless I compact the grain bed with the top plate before sparging. Although I've recently had better results with no sparge as I've got a bit more capacity in the 70. Thanks to @MHB for the tips re that plan.


It has definitely been good for slowing things down a little sparge wise


----------



## Jayvan90

I wish I could say that the trub stopper worked the way that I wanted it to but I can’t …
It did work, but too well. I probably shouldn’t have tried to brew a neipa full of oats and wheat on the test run but I figured it would show up any short comings pretty well, and did it what!! 
Mash was smooth enough (rice hulls yes yes) but when it came to the boil things were a little out of ordinary. A rolling boil started while the temp probe was reading 80c, I started a timer at this point since the auto program wasn’t going to start until it hit 100c. The reading from the probe only made it to 97c by the time the boil was finished. Did my hop additions and whirlpool as usual but noticed that the whirlpool was not as strong as usual. When chilling the wort it stalled at 25c where I would normally get down to 18c in the same amount of time so I decided to transfer to the fermenter using a strainer as I normally would, it clogged very quickly. When I heard the gurgle of the pump sucking the last bit out guten I switched it off to have a look at the results … instead of a nice cone of trub in the centre it looked more like and overflowing swimming pool - the whole thing was so clogged that it was actually holding a pool of wort / trub / slurry all the way to the edge of the can.
So a couple of issues to fix there, not quite back to the drawing board but some definite considerations to be given to wort flow plus find out what the heck is going on with the temp probe - my guess is that the trub stopper clogged with hot break and created a cavity with a slow flow in.
Anyway hooray it works - not !
What doesn’t kill us only makes us brew better
Thanks for listening to my story


----------



## Jayvan90

I forgot to mention - my expected OG was 1.071 based on recipe. I got just under 22L of 1.062 into the fermenter so everything is fine - It will be beer!


----------



## duncbrewer

@Jayvan90 

Sorry about the problems, I do like the way that the trubtrapper is held in the right position with the false bottom. 

Questions how and when do you fit it in so that the false bottom is below the whirlpool bit?

Could be that one of the false bottom legs or the edge with rubber on or accumulated hops is insulating the temp probe. 

Might be that you just need a thin rim of false bottom with a few wide spokes ( perhaps angled to throw flow up as a later mod ) a bit like an aero wheel on a bike. Then you'd have a really well positioned trubtrap and great flow.

I don't think you need the false bottom legs anymore.

PS I swear by 10ml of glucanase in any brew with adjuncts, cheap, works, saves volume as no hulls needed.


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> @Jayvan90
> 
> Sorry about the problems, I do like the way that the trubtrapper is held in the right position with the false bottom.
> 
> Questions how and when do you fit it in so that the false bottom is below the whirlpool bit?
> 
> Could be that one of the false bottom legs or the edge with rubber on or accumulated hops is insulating the temp probe.
> 
> Might be that you just need a thin rim of false bottom with a few wide spokes ( perhaps angled to throw flow up as a later mod ) a bit like an aero wheel on a bike. Then you'd have a really well positioned trubtrap and great flow.
> 
> I don't think you need the false bottom legs anymore.
> 
> PS I swear by 10ml of glucanase in any brew with adjuncts, cheap, works, saves volume as no hulls needed.


These things happen but I am determined to make it work !
Part of the initial thought for using the false bottom was how it would stay it in place, I install it right at the start before filling with water, there is enough space to slide it in between the wort out and whirlpool fittings. I will get a pic when I have cleaned up. 

I was thinking same @duncbrewer about creating some flow channels in the top, great idea about aero fins angled up (this is now my first project with the Dremel I just bought)

There wasnt a lot of gunk under the trub trapper I think what did get through was sucked down between the edge of false bottom and the can as there are a couple of spots that aren’t quite snug.. like I mentioned it was so clogged it was holding liquid so the silicone on the bottom made a pretty good seal - the probe has good clearance from the silicone ring so the only thing I can think is that it was so clogged it created a cavity of insulated wort that didn’t move or possibly even an air pocket underneath.

I will cut in fins as you suggest for better flow and retest, I feel the legs stabilise it so will leave them in for the minute.

Thanks also for the glucanase tip !


----------



## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> @Jayvan90
> 
> Sorry about the problems, I do like the way that the trubtrapper is held in the right position with the false bottom.
> 
> Questions how and when do you fit it in so that the false bottom is below the whirlpool bit?
> 
> Could be that one of the false bottom legs or the edge with rubber on or accumulated hops is insulating the temp probe.
> 
> Might be that you just need a thin rim of false bottom with a few wide spokes ( perhaps angled to throw flow up as a later mod ) a bit like an aero wheel on a bike. Then you'd have a really well positioned trubtrap and great flow.
> 
> I don't think you need the false bottom legs anymore.
> 
> PS I swear by 10ml of glucanase in any brew with adjuncts, cheap, works, saves volume as no hulls needed.



@duncbrewer here are the pictures -
I included one with a red circle that shows the proximity of the temp probe to my trub clogger


----------



## BrewLizard

Damn, this thread has really gone from level 15 to 99 in the past few weeks.

I'm not sure if it's sheer luck or just a benefit of doing 8.5 L batches, but the false bottom has done such an excellent job in containing hot break and hops that it's all I use – no helix coil, no bazooka, no hop spider, and no trub trapper. Haven't had any scorching problems either.

My only gripe with the GUTEN is the lazy programming. It's beyond stupid that you have to deliberately program dummy stages in full-power steps to ramp up. It should have some form of proportional control, if not PID.

(But the saddest part is, I've been so busy that my last 2 batches had to be with extract – one Mr Beer that is likely going to get dumped (for a 75% dumping rate), and one scratch-DME batch, which is a bit more promising. I feel sad for those who never evolved past twangy kit brews.)


----------



## dibbz

I don't even program my grainfather connect let alone the guten, only gripe is having to bend down.


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## Ballaratguy

dibbz said:


> I don't even program my grainfather connect let alone the guten, only gripe is having to bend down.


I put a grainfather connect to my Guten and wouldn’t go back the the Guten controller


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## duncbrewer

I'm going to do a few more brews see how these mods go and then consider the smart pid. Not sure why they can't be web enabled a bit like brewpiless and then I could just run it off my laptop or have it on the wall.


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## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> I'm going to do a few more brews see how these mods go and then consider the smart pid. Not sure why they can't be web enabled a bit like brewpiless and then I could just run it off my laptop or have it on the wall.


You can mount the smartPID remotely (but corded though)


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## duncbrewer

but the relays are still under the guten I assume. So it's just the control panel that's corded?


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## BrewLizard

If you have the benefit of some electronic know-how, a $5 ESP8266, a 16x2 LCD and a few buttons could interface with the existing hardware and give you full PID and WiFi for less than $20 outlay...


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## duncbrewer

@BrewLizard 

I'll confess to some knowhow, just built Two of these 
Repetidor iSpindel con Display Oled 

and added the extra sensors to it and have attached the ispindels I made to them. 

Also a couple of wifi repeaters as per 








GitHub - martin-ger/esp_wifi_repeater: A full functional WiFi Repeater (correctly: a WiFi NAT Router)


A full functional WiFi Repeater (correctly: a WiFi NAT Router) - GitHub - martin-ger/esp_wifi_repeater: A full functional WiFi Repeater (correctly: a WiFi NAT Router)




github.com





They are all working fine.

Is there a specific ESP8266 pid mash control program or is the smart PID controller software loadable ?
Or a link to a website explaining what to do?


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## BrewLizard

I don't have a single, specific example, but the benefit of ESP8266 is that you can program it in the Arduino environment. If you google "arduino pid brew controller" (without quotes) there are countless examples. Arduino also has multiple PID libraries (not brewing-specific) available. ESP8266 gives you the benefit of a TCP/IP stack with easy Wi-Fi control.

For a plant with such high inertia though (i.e. a thing of water with huge specific heat), PID is overkill. Proportional + an integral* term (with some windup prevention) would be more than enough, and easily programmed from scratch if you prefer to know your own code inside-out, rather than working with a library.

SmartPID is okay, and looks reasonably complete as an off-the-shelf solution, but always struck me as way too much money for something with the fit and finish of a DIY hobby job anyway.

*Or even a constant term. E.g. you could work out roughly the minimum power requirement to _slightly_ increase temperature, say 500W. Then add a proportional term, e.g. 400W/°C_error. This means your system would run at full whack until about 4°C below the target, then proportionally reduce power until it gets there. Add 0.5°C of hysteresis in each direction, and you'll have something that is reasonably fast responding, never overshoots and provides tight control -- without any complex tuning requirements.


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## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> but the relays are still under the guten I assume. So it's just the control panel that's corded?


That’s one reason that I used a grainfather controller. Bluetooth controlled via their app. I just had to isolate the heaters and I wired them up via a plug same with the pump
I got a second hand gf controller that had some pixels gone in the screen (grainfather gave me a new screen)
All up cost me about $90 for the upgrade


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## duncbrewer

Hmm think I'm okay following a how to build it instruction but learning to program is a big ask. However I will look into it. As you say the nuts and bolts are there just needs a spanner or torque wrench to tighten it.


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## Jayvan90

I went for the smartPID as a controller for a number of reasons.

I had settled on Brewfather as my recipe software of choice so wanted something to integrate with that via wifi if possible. 
I wanted to be able to install it to the can and not have it external requiring extra plugs and cable. 
I wanted a kit that meant I didn’t have to find other bits and pieces to make it work or fit properly.

smartPID ticked all of the boxes, yes it was way more expensive than other options but to me seemed a more complete solution. I was happy to pay for the fact that it was brew specific kit that someone had spent time and money on developing and offering integration with other software as well as a standalone controller app for android. 
You can dial in the PID settings yourself or it has an auto tune function to get you started in very little time. 

Brewfather integration transfers the recipe at the click of a mouse so there’s no double handling of programming mash steps / boil and hop additions - it even runs cooling and whirlpool timers with temps per your recipe with alarms for each step.
If you want you can go manual mode programming each step as you go. It controls the pump automatically but you can override that with manual control either via the panel or software.

overall it’s pretty versatile, it’s taken a couple of brews to get my brain out of the old controller programming habits and get dialled in but I’m happy with it so far. 
instead of the double sided tape to fasten it to the can I used sika and clamped it nice and tight which made for a better finish in my opinion.


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## Ballaratguy

Jayvan90 said:


> I went for the smartPID as a controller for a number of reasons.
> 
> I had settled on Brewfather as my recipe software of choice so wanted something to integrate with that via wifi if possible.
> I wanted to be able to install it to the can and not have it external requiring extra plugs and cable.
> I wanted a kit that meant I didn’t have to find other bits and pieces to make it work or fit properly.
> 
> smartPID ticked all of the boxes, yes it was way more expensive than other options but to me seemed a more complete solution. I was happy to pay for the fact that it was brew specific kit that someone had spent time and money on developing and offering integration with other software as well as a standalone controller app for android.
> You can dial in the PID settings yourself or it has an auto tune function to get you started in very little time.
> 
> Brewfather integration transfers the recipe at the click of a mouse so there’s no double handling of programming mash steps / boil and hop additions - it even runs cooling and whirlpool timers with temps per your recipe with alarms for each step.
> If you want you can go manual mode programming each step as you go. It controls the pump automatically but you can override that with manual control either via the panel or software.
> 
> overall it’s pretty versatile, it’s taken a couple of brews to get my brain out of the old controller programming habits and get dialled in but I’m happy with it so far.
> instead of the double sided tape to fasten it to the can I used sika and clamped it nice and tight which made for a better finish in my opinion.


The grainfather control does all that the smartPID does except it’s Bluetooth. Yes wifi would be much better but I never am far away when brewing anyway
I also like the fact that it’s a lot easier to hookup the GF unit just plug and play. Also the fact that you can mount the unit where you like
One reason that I wanted a controller remote from the brew unit was that I got sick of standing on my head to get to the controller. Due to crook shoulders I need to have the SVB low so I can lift the malt pipe (I haven’t built a lifting crane for it yet)


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## duncbrewer

@Ballaratguy

I'm not that keen seeing kettles of boiling wort at eyelevel on benches, just dangerous. I wonder whether the tiltbridge device for relaying bluetooth Tilt signals to wifi could be used or adapted to get you a wifi link that you don't really need? Best to ask @LBussy on homebrewtalk.com about that.


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## hopnotic

Grainfather is nice but brewfather integration with Guten via SmartPID is next level.
Funny how a single app developer can provide a 10x better user experience (in brewfather) vs Grainfather with their app that hasn't really been enhanced in any serious way since it was launched 3-4 years ago.


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## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> @Ballaratguy
> 
> I'm not that keen seeing kettles of boiling wort at eyelevel on benches, just dangerous. I wonder whether the tiltbridge device for relaying bluetooth Tilt signals to wifi could be used or adapted to get you a wifi link that you don't really need? Best to ask @LBussy on homebrewtalk.com about that.


It’s the GF controller that’s at a comfortable height to use remotely from the SVB which is still 100mm above ground level


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## duncbrewer

@Ballaratguy 
Yes realise the GF advantages with positioning and that discourages the benchtop use and dangers.


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## mynameisrodney

I had removed a built in BBQ in my back yard and put the guten there, so probably 40-50cm off the ground. I felt this was a good working height.

Backyard is currently being re-done though, so no brewing for me at the moment.


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## duncbrewer

Just the mention of barbecue in our neighbourhood and it would start to rain. I wouldn't want the guten sitting in a puddle!


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## mynameisrodney

Haha, no it was all undercover. I'll try to dig out a pic


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## mynameisrodney




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## duncbrewer

Having seen the floods in some parts of Aus and recent in NZ 50cm not high enough up. But you have a reserve shelf that you could stand it on and then you stand on the shelf the guten is currently standing on.


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## mynameisrodney

That whole thing was demolished a week and a half ago. The slab it was on sinking and cracking. There will be a similar one going back in, but the current plan is to put a sink in where the Guten is in that image, Currently there's no water supply near there so I walk back and forth with jugs of water. and I'm going to build a trolley for the Guten that fits all my gear.


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## BrewLizard

That moment when you dough in, and think it went in so beautifully, mixed well and not a dough ball in sight. Then you think "hang on, I'm covering up the return pipe".

...and then it hits you: the entire malt pipe is still sitting on the bench.

F$*#


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## duncbrewer

Ahh, that's irritating, was it a decant and remash in job?


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## BrewLizard

Yep. Luckily I 1) still had my old 19 L brew pot to hold everything (I do 8.5 L batches), and 2) the false bottom stopped most of the grain from getting to the pump.

Pouring off wort, ladling grain, rinsing bits of stuck grain with wort, blasting some tap water through the return hose to clean out the pump, tipping into old brew pot, inserting malt pipe and starting again. Oh, and taking years off my life and the GUTEN's life + waking every dog in the neighbourhood by taking the false bottom out and putting it back in.

I suspect the brew will finish drier due to 20+ mins of being well below target mash temp as a result, but who knows? Might be an accidentally great beer.


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## Dilligaf666

Does anyone have a working profile for the Guten 70 litre version? Preferably for Brewfather - Im using the Grainfather 70l profile but it isnt quite right

Cheers


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## duncbrewer

Sorry @Dilligaf666 
I'm still working mine out and it's fairly modded from the original. But I'll get there one day, still a bit finger in the air most brewdays.


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## mynameisrodney

Here's mine. I'm still tweaking it though, only done a handful of double batches so far. Sorry not sure how to export so just saved screenshots.


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## Dilligaf666

Great Thanks will have a look at that


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## duncbrewer

@Jayvan90 
I've just got my Smartpid, arrived yesterday.

What instructions did you follow to wire it in? Did you find any specific to the guten?
Did you move the temp sensor?
Any tips for setting it up / install on the guten 70?

Thanks


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## Jayvan90

duncbrewer said:


> @Jayvan90
> I've just got my Smartpid, arrived yesterday.
> 
> What instructions did you follow to wire it in? Did you find any specific to the guten?
> Did you move the temp sensor?
> Any tips for setting it up / install on the guten 70?
> 
> Thanks


Hey @duncbrewer, 
I’m busy today but will have some time tomorrow afternoon to respond properly- I followed the Klarstein instructions as that was most similar- I didn’t change the location of the temp probe but have since considered doing that as I think it might be better placed closer to the recirc pump inlet. 
Also on my last brew I had possibly the most annoying issue I have encountered so far - the thermal cut out switch decided it didn’t like me or the roggenbier I was brewing and would reset every 40 - 50 sec or so at around 100c, to get my post boil numbers took around 3ish boring hrs - so that is getting a bypass before next brew day since it doesn’t look like keg king sell a replacement. While I have it apart I will take some pics of how it all worked out for you. As far as 70L specific info, I only have a 40 so not much help but I figure they probably have a fair-bit in common other than just physical size. 
Did you get the capacitor / filter in the kit? .. that becomes useful if you get interface to the wifi connection from the pump..

as an update on the trub catcher - it never really worked as well as I wanted it to after chopping and changing .. back to the drawing board !


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## Ballaratguy

Jayvan90 said:


> Hey @duncbrewer,
> I’m busy today but will have some time tomorrow afternoon to respond properly- I followed the Klarstein instructions as that was most similar- I didn’t change the location of the temp probe but have since considered doing that as I think it might be better placed closer to the recirc pump inlet.
> Also on my last brew I had possibly the most annoying issue I have encountered so far - the thermal cut out switch decided it didn’t like me or the roggenbier I was brewing and would reset every 40 - 50 sec or so at around 100c, to get my post boil numbers took around 3ish boring hrs - so that is getting a bypass before next brew day since it doesn’t look like keg king sell a replacement. While I have it apart I will take some pics of how it all worked out for you. As far as 70L specific info, I only have a 40 so not much help but I figure they probably have a fair-bit in common other than just physical size.
> Did you get the capacitor / filter in the kit? .. that becomes useful if you get interface to the wifi connection from the pump..
> 
> as an update on the trub catcher - it never really worked as well as I wanted it to after chopping and changing .. back to the drawing board !


Jaycar 


Jayvan90 said:


> Hey @duncbrewer,
> I’m busy today but will have some time tomorrow afternoon to respond properly- I followed the Klarstein instructions as that was most similar- I didn’t change the location of the temp probe but have since considered doing that as I think it might be better placed closer to the recirc pump inlet.
> Also on my last brew I had possibly the most annoying issue I have encountered so far - the thermal cut out switch decided it didn’t like me or the roggenbier I was brewing and would reset every 40 - 50 sec or so at around 100c, to get my post boil numbers took around 3ish boring hrs - so that is getting a bypass before next brew day since it doesn’t look like keg king sell a replacement. While I have it apart I will take some pics of how it all worked out for you. As far as 70L specific info, I only have a 40 so not much help but I figure they probably have a fair-bit in common other than just physical size.
> Did you get the capacitor / filter in the kit? .. that becomes useful if you get interface to the wifi connection from the pump..
> 
> as an update on the trub catcher - it never really worked as well as I wanted it to after chopping and changing .. back to the drawing board !


Jaycar electronics would probably have a thermal cut out


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## Jayvan90

Ballaratguy said:


> Jaycar
> 
> Jaycar electronics would probably have a thermal cut out


Thanks @Ballaratguy will have a look - it was such a PITA I would prefer to not have it there at all ..even as much as I understand it’s purpose


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## duncbrewer

@Jayvan90 
If you can find out the details of the cutout I'll look at the ones that I bought as spares when I burnt out the one in my water boiler. 
I'll check the rating of the ones I've got in a couple of hours.

I ordered mine from aliexpress as I struggled to find one in Jaycar over here or another supplier.


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## hopnotic

I used the false bottom with my Guten 70 this week. Hazy pale recipe with 100gm whirlpool. It's pretty much useless, as you can see the holes in the mesh aren't fine enough to trap the hops.

I'm going back to the hop spider and I'll throw in 20% extra to compensate for lower utilisation.


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## duncbrewer

@hopnotic 

That is a pain, not a crazy amount of hops either.


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## Ballaratguy

duncbrewer said:


> @hopnotic
> 
> That is a pain, not a crazy amount of hops either.


I have the 40Lt and find the false bottom is good
Between the false bottom and a helix coil under the false bottom I get reasonably clear wort out (and even when pumping out via the tap at around 20 deg)


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## hopnotic

The false bottom doesn't specify "must use with helix coil to be effective". 

It's basically false advertising.


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## Ballaratguy

I would suggest that the false bottom doesn’t claim to eliminate all the trub either
But combine the 2 together they still won’t get all of the trub out either


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## BrewLizard

Be careful what you wish for. A finer mesh on the false bottom would be more prone to plugging, much like the original bazooka screen. There's no harm with some trub (or even all of it) going into the fermenter, but you can minimise it with false bottom + turning the tap off when it starts to go murky.


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## duncbrewer

I reckon the false bottom would be a different beast if used with whole hops, would make a great filter bed.

I'm going to carry on with my homemade " trubinator " / " trubtrapper " , I've sold the helix coil as it wasn't quite good enough either.





Search - Brewtools EU D4







www.brewtools.com





Mine seen in post 2233 this thread the MK 1 for the robobrew and the bigger MK 2 for the Guten 70.


Does a good job, tricky bit is getting it to drop in the right place. Really good at stopping hops ( pelletised not tried with whole ) but doesn't stop cold break that well, but do you need to?

Might try and pick up the genuine article though on a trip to Europe in July.


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## golfandbrew

hopnotic said:


> I used the false bottom with my Guten 70 this week. Hazy pale recipe with 100gm whirlpool. It's pretty much useless, as you can see the holes in the mesh aren't fine enough to trap the hops.
> 
> I'm going back to the hop spider and I'll throw in 20% extra to compensate for lower utilisation.


How did you go about whirlpooling? Looks like the hops didn't settle in the centre very well.


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## dibbz

Praise be the whirlpool arm.


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## duncbrewer

That's worked well but we can only see what's in your boiler, the bit we can't see in your fermenter is what matters.


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## JimmyMcFiddlesticks

The false bottom in my 70L has a massive gap at one point on the edge, everything just gets sucked below.
I'm too scared to use a helix as well because I won't be able to open it up with the paddle when it's under the false bottom.


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## Ballaratguy

I’ve got the helix under the false bottom
I’ve NEVER had to open up the helix to transfer the wort. (I’ve got a mag pump attached to the tap)


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## BrewLizard

Speaking of false bottom, has anyone managed to modify theirs to make it easier and less damaging to get in and out?

I’m tempted to cut mine down the middle and put stainless hinges in. Or a hinge made of a strip of stainless mesh.


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## duncbrewer

I'm very lucky my bottom not sagging yet so no need for a false one, it does have a crack in it but no need for a hinge!!


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## BrewLizard

Thanks dad.

I also found a way to make filling the GUTEN with water easier. I'm stuck with a kitchen tap that has a fancy nozzle, so there's no way to attach tubing to it. The flowrate is also restricted, so filling a 5 L jug multiple times is painfully slow.

New method: plug the sink and run the tap, then connect the recirc tube and throw the open end into the sink. Pour a couple of litres of water into the GUTEN and briefly run the pump to prime the tubing. Once you turn the pump off, water will siphon from the sink into the GUTEN.

Hope that helps someone else.


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## Ballaratguy

Because my brewery is in a garden shed I carry hot water from the laundry up to my Guten in a 9Lt watering can. I can also keep track of the water quality that way
I also do this for sparging


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## duncbrewer

@BrewLizard 
Go on show us your nozzle. Must fit well with the saggy bottom.


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## djackal

First brew on the 50l guten today.
Also first brew in my dedicated brew space.

Pros: Once I figured out how the controller work I was able to get a good mash temp and boil. Heats up nice and quick using 15amps.
And so much easier than a gas setup. Just walk away as you please and potter around doing jobs.
I was a bit higher than my planned at OG 1.065 and the colour slightly darker. But I don;t mind a higher alcohol amber ale so it should be nice if not infected.

Cons: Immersion chiller painfully slow and ineffective...will likely invest in a counterflow before my next brew.
Also the bazooka screen blocked as many on here advise. Helix coil will be bought as well I think.
Need to use a pump to transfer from sparge vessel to Guten and from Guten (tap) to fermenter. Lucky I have 2 spare.

My ispindel didn't work so I had to fish it out of the snubnose. It's back in there but still not working...I guess i'll wing it and keg/bottle at 2 weeks and hope for the best.
Also no gas coming out of the bottle. Think it's the regulator...otherwise I've got a leak.

*Question: I can still ferment in the snubnose with no gas and just a spunding valve right? Gas will just release at a certain pressure?*

Verdict: A pretty good initial brew and hopefully a good beer comes from it. Took an extra hour or so due to teething issues and a non-optimised setup by overall a decent experience.
Will need to spend a few extra bob at the setup unfortunately but I'm sure it will be worth it long term.


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## Dilligaf666

I have now completed 6 brews in the Guten 70 Litres...
I have the hang of in now I reckon - programmed start so I heat up over night.
I fill it up to just under 70 litres - heat the water to 75 - drain down to 42 litres ( the balance is used for sparge later)
12kg grain
sparge back up to 60 litres
boil..
done 50 litres wort!


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## duncbrewer

Brewed an IPA and a stout this weekend on the Guten 70. SmartPID controller working really well, very steady temp control and integrated with brewfather.
Getting my numbers at last it's not a mad dash all day getting ready as I go. Had time to look out the window and have a beer.


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## hopnotic

Nice one Dunc. Have do you find the SmartPID / Brewfather integration? In my first 3-4 brews with that setup I had two recurring issues:
1. BF kept trying to do a step mash despite my recipe being a single step mash.
2. SmartPID recipe steps getting out of sync with BF schedule.

Now I just control the SmartPID manually via BF interface, eg, switch between Devices / Batches screens or use multiple browser tabs to change temp, turn pump on/off, etc.


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## duncbrewer

@hopnotic 
Sorry couldn't reply yesterday , I was making an imperial stout with lots of adjuncts rye and wheat and the rye seemed to be the right size to block every hole in the bottom of the malt pipe. Don't normally have problems, but first time using rye.
Think next time I'll crush it to much smaller size and perhaps pre mash it. Don't think I'll do another until next year though.

Regarding SmartPID.

In the mash profiles of brewfather there is one recommended profile that has all of the steps ie phytase, beta glucanase, etc etc.

Just change all the times to 0 minutes, don't put any ramp times in either.

In the configuration on the SmartPID there is a setting for the dough in/mash in where you set a temperature. Think this is 50 celsius you can adjust this so say you want to mash at 65, then set it to 65. My system overshoots a little say 1.8 degrees but thats ideal as I let it do that then dial back to say 63.3 and dough in.
Temp drops and is bang on. I monitor the temp of the water coming from the recirculation at the top with a separate probe set up on the HLT channel and set the kettle temp so that the water in top probe is at my target temp.

Yes irritating with the system timer getting out of sync with brewfather alerts. I am better at keeping it to task now. You can move the brewtimer points back and forward in brewfather to help with the synchronize. 

I have emailed Davide about the lack of coordination between the timer and the smartpid, also want to be able to raise temp of mash to say 95 during the sparge stage rather than the hold and then have to bump up at the end of sparge / malt extraction.

Worth emailing Davide about integration the more of us that request it the better chance of development.

PS what settings do you have for you PID ie values of Kp, Kd and Ki. What sized system are you using it on?


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## hidara

Another SmartPID 70l Guten setup.
Works great and now that you can send recipes straight from Brewfather I'm loving it.
Seems that the guy has run out of SS faceplates so I'm putting a link to a 3D printed design. Its made to be push fit and locked in using the bracket at the back.









Guten 70l SmartPID housing by hidara


m3x15 button bolts w 2 washers & 1 nut, for outer holes m3x40 button bolts w 4 washers & 3 nuts, for center holes Remove rubber feet from SmartPID and align bracket so that protrusions fit where rubber feet were. The PID is designed to pressure fit into the faceplate and use the the two extra...




www.thingiverse.com


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## duncbrewer

@hidara 
I've got the SS plate but I can't get it to stick well on the body of the kettle as soon as it gets warm then it unsticks the tape.
Yours looks good. I'll get one printed up. Adding a lip / eyebrow to the piece would stop any dribbles getting onto the box, currently I just have a piece of clear plastic cut that fits between the metal base and main kettle that does the job.

What settings are you using on the PID ? ie Kp Ki and Kd?

The fitting of the temp probe those little green tabs are very irritating. I found that a piece of solid core wire about 1mm fitted perfectly in and very secure, then attached this to a chocolate block ( connector block ) and then it's really easy to fit the wires for the sensor in.

I added another sensor on a long wire to the HLT side of the PID so I can measure wort inflow temperature through wortometer and the temperature of wort post chiller before going into the fermenter.

Modifying it further I've now managed to wire another NTC sensor into the same input, this is on a longer lead and I can switch between the kettle base sensor or the longer lead. This is useful for catching boil temperature as I find that the base sensor is often lagging behind the top of the wort temperature as it comes up to boil.

You need to put a diode on the return side of each NTC sensor to make it accurate.


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