# Why are you getting infected?



## Dave70 (10/9/13)

I've been brewing regularly pretty much since I joined AHB around five years ago. At a rough estimate that's about 65 to 70 batches give or take.
I can honestly say in that time, I've only lost one batch to infection. Not to say I haven't made un drinkable beer due to crook recopies and so on, just not infected.
My sanitation regime is a fairly basic (lazy) all round, a squirt bottle of idopher, another with bleach some detergent and a sponge. Fermenters get cleaned out as soon as the beers finished and set outside in the sun either until I could be bothered to bring them in or they get blown around the backyard. Then its a quick rinse with hot water and a squirt of idopher when its time for action. No elaborate, prolonged soakings or lazer beams. Same with bottles, clean, sanitize and drain on the bottle tree.

Some things I _don't_ do however, unscrew the lid for a peep inside the fermenter, very rarely do I rack to a secondary, leave the wort uncovered for any length of time. Plus everything that can come into contact with the beer gets a spray of sanitizer, including my hands and the smack pack.

Since there seems to be quite a few here loosing batches to infection, anybody want to suggest areas that need particular attention or may get overlooked?


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## HBHB (10/9/13)

Have to wonder how many are really infected and how many are just "off flavours" caused by rookie mistakes with fermentation practices, laced with acetaldehyde or astringency caused by mash issues etc.

We get a lot of guys bringing in "infected beers" to see what went wrong. Reckon there's been 3 in maybe a couple of hundred (recall one Lacto salad dressing one and a couple of Brett). Plus 1 really bad one in a competition that bruised an ego......he reckoned it was shit hot.

We've had guys bring in hoppy IPA's done with finishing and dry hops, reckon they're undrinkably "infected" when in fact they're sitting at about 40 IBU's - way more than the XXXX Gold style clones they've been brewing for 20 years. In actual fact, what they've made is a beer with colour, flavour and aroma.....not a bad one at that.

That said, thorough cleaning followed by effective sanitising should be high on the priority list for any brewer, but understanding that every beer that doesn't taste right is not necessarily infected with the cause of the next zombie apocalypse should be up there too.

Just sayin'

Martin


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## tricache (10/9/13)

Same boat here, I have done many brews (not as many as you but a fair few)

I have had one infection, sanitation problem when bulk priming and getting nothing but acetone :icon_vomit: 

I still think sanitation is EVERYTHING!! Clean and sanitize like you are eating off it (you are drinking it remember)


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## GalBrew (10/9/13)

I think there are also a lot of people out there abusing the whole "no-chill" concept as they don't understand the theory behind it and wondering why their cubes are expanding.


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## jotaigna (10/9/13)

I've had a good run of about 30 batches, followed by a bad run of about 6 batches. I ruled out one by one all possible infection pathways until I found my fermentor was funking my beer.
Since then I have done 4 batches, progressively adding steps (including racking to secondary for lagers), and happily finding out that things are back to normal.

But before all this, I continuously trawled the forum to find other things that were ruining my beer: yeast health, water and minerals, sparging technique, grain crush, phases of the moon, you name it.

It is only after I tried everything, and received advise from felow AHB members and my LHBS that I discovered what was wrong with my beer.

I agree that people worry about infection a tad much, but it is after all part of the process.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/9/13)

Got to agree with mini mash, regarding so called off flavours in beer, my old man used to ferment in a stone jar in the pantry with nothing but a tea towel covering it, he never had any bad ales, plus he didn't have the equipment or sanitisers we have now.
All I do is bleach it, rinse it and quat it, equipment and bottles,never had an infection and I brew about 3 times a week on average but I am regimental in what I do. (Familiarity breeds contempt)
My biggest worry, well its not a worry its a perverse feeling of how many fermenters I can get in the bedroom without getting asphyxiated, my record is 5, but at different levels of fermentation.


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## manticle (10/9/13)

Once a wild yeast or bacteria takes hold in equipment it can be very hard to shake.

I think HBHB is probably right to some extent but infections do definitely exist and I think a lot of them may have to do with existing environmental microflora as well as people not breaking apart things like taps.


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## 1974Alby (10/9/13)

tricache said:


> Clean and sanitize like you are eating off it (you are drinking it remember)


 I will disregard this advice....2 second rule??? huh...10 second rule in my place!

I have had expanding cubes twice...threw them in the bin and now am more careful in sanitsing around the lid, handle and bung. Never had a problem once into the fermentor.


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## syl (10/9/13)

I had about 10 infections in a row, went through all of my gear, threw out most of it! 

The culprit: rising damp in the brew room, eventually had to rip out the carpet and get the leak fixed. 

Any air exposure at all and the beer was GONE!


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## syl (10/9/13)

I have had one infection from lazy sanitation. Early on. But all good now!


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## KingKong (10/9/13)

If you use Starsan correctly, make sure it makes contact with every surface your beer comes into contact with, boil your wort, ensure a healthy fermentation and sealed fermentation, you should rarely to never have an infection. 

I think I have had one infection that took months to come through in bottled beer and was pre starsan and in my bleach early days.


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## Yob (10/9/13)

The Brew I did following the Vic case swap, I noticed my LBP had a hairline crack at the head and was leaking, I set a jar under it and promptly forgot about it, when I saw the jar 3 week's later I was astonished to see just a couple of (large granted) mould spots.. My Brew barracks a dirt floor, open to the wind, I was amazed it was still wort.

I've been lucky as I know I've been lazy in places, I count my blessings as seeing folks like lecterfan and Manticle and many others suffer through infections is a big warning not to be complacent.

That said, I'm heading home tonight to check on a suspicious Brew.. Fingers crossed


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## Greg.L (10/9/13)

Homebrew beer is a very safe and trouble-free process.
The thing you should never do is blame your equipment. If you have problems it is because you have done something wrong, you should face that so you can identify and fix the problem. The commonest cause of infection is too much air getting in. If you are using gladwrap to cover your fermenter and you get an infection look no further - the glad wrap is letting in too much oxygen. Most spoilage organisms need oxygen, keep a good seal on your fermenter and you keep out the oxygen, very low chance of getting an infection. If you open your fermenter often, have a large headspace, that lets in air that encourages infections. Any fermenter can be cleaned, hot water and soap will get rid of any bugs, and they wouldn't grow without air anyway.

I wish all these people throwing away fermenters would send them to me, I could put them to good use.

As for infections in cubes, leaving wort without pitching yeast is asking for trouble. You only need a few wild yeast to get in and the fermentation will start. I am only surprised it doesn't happen more often.


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## syl (10/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Homebrew beer is a very safe and trouble-free process.
> The thing you should never do is blame your equipment. If you have problems it is because you have done something wrong, you should face that so you can identify and fix the problem. The commonest cause of infection is too much air getting in. If you are using gladwrap to cover your fermenter and you get an infection look no further - the glad wrap is letting in too much oxygen. Most spoilage organisms need oxygen, keep a good seal on your fermenter and you keep out the oxygen, very low chance of getting an infection. If you open your fermenter often, have a large headspace, that lets in air that encourages infections. Any fermenter can be cleaned, hot water and soap will get rid of any bugs, and they wouldn't grow without air anyway.
> 
> I wish all these people throwing away fermenters would send them to me, I could put them to good use.
> ...



^^ example 700 of people not understanding no chill.

I have heaps of cubes of Smurto's from a few weeks ago just sitting there... happy. Pitched one today, delicious!!


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## Black Devil Dog (10/9/13)

I reckon I've almost developed an obsessive compulsive disorder when it comes to sanitation these days.

Everything gets a dose of sanitiser, some get multiple doses and some even get boiling water as well.

I regularly dip my hands into the sanitiser, and the cloth I use to wipe my hands is soaking in the sanitiser.

But then I'll do something stupid like cough into the fermenter while it's open. :blink: 

So far so good though.


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## timmi9191 (10/9/13)

Anyone noticed the infestation of vingar fly in melb (east) recently.. The cause of my 2 (fingers crossed, touch wood) and last infections right there..


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## s_t_r_o_b_e (10/9/13)

Is there a definitive way to tell if you've had an infection? SimoB and I have been brewing together and thought we had four infections in a row. I'm fairly certain that the first actually was an infection (as we both thought it wasn't quite right) but since then it's almost like we've been trying to find that taste...

After tasting a couple of really interesting beers at the home brew comp on the weekend, we've realised that some of the "infected" beers may have just been "different". It was the first time we brewed using Maris Otter for example. We were crazy on the sanitation front - the only thing we lacked was a pair of hazmat suits. 

Is there a test or something to work out what's infected and what's just in our heads (as stressy newbies)?


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## manticle (10/9/13)

Flavours typically caused by infection are fairly varied but sour, medicinal, acetone (nail polish remover) are a few of the common ones. HBHB is right - there are many flavours not cause by microflora that render beer difficult to drink.

Loads of acetaldehyde, DMS, H2S, diacetyl or the wrong ester can be nasty. Even medicinal flavours can be caused by things other than infection. Interestingly some infections will cause an excess of things like dms or diacetyl but they are also a natural part of brewing and fermentation.

@timmi - been a lot flying around my place recently. I haven't had any infections from the buggers but I assumed it was a cross between next door's compost and any spilled beer in my shed since I started kegging a few weeks ago. Interesting to know it's not just my place.


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## Green-Lobster (10/9/13)

I brew at work, in a soil testing lab, next to the toilets . I use the tank water collected from the shed roof . We are next to a waste tranfer centre in an industrial estate . We make a road stabalising product that is incredibly dusty, hydrated lime being a major component . I only use napi san and boiling water to clean with . I give everything a good clean . but i always rack to secondry often take the lid of to look and smell float the hydro meter in (rinsed of course). Occasionally i get a light white infection usally if ive added some vanilla pods or fruit ,or some other experimental floating thing . it never smells bad or seems to affect the flavour . I ve left the last litre or so when bulk priming and this happens . although by that stage its surelly in the mix well and truelly . It never reappears in the bottles. or makes it taste wierd so ive stopped worrying. 
I rack of onto honey thats coldfiltered i only mix it with boiled water as i want to preserve the local pollens . this was suggested to me to combat hayfever . 3 years in i no longer take any tablets for what was once the bain of my existence. I try not to miss a night without my medicine .
Maybe im just incredibly lucky not to get a bad mould, or the shed im in and the hydrated lime are creating a favourable micro climate ?


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## timmi9191 (10/9/13)

My neighbour also has compost (actually several) which are well fed with spent grain and fermenter wash out from my brewing. i also my spill tray on kegarator in garage.. Maybe theres something in the air from that combo??


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## syl (10/9/13)

The spill tray brings them for sure!

The co2 and the sugar.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

Homebrew beer is a beautifully safe and simple process. If you have problems, don't blame it on bad luck, a random infection getting into your brew.
If you have infections, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. All the sanitiser in the world won't help if you have something wrong in your process.

You pitch a healthy population of yeast into the wort, within 24hrs a good fermentation has started producing copious amounts of co2 and alcohol into a liquid containing a strong anti-bacterial agent. You make sure that there isn't too much air space in the fermenter, no more than 10cm, you seal it with a good lid and you leave it alone at a suitable temperature. In 2 or 3 weeks, beer! If you do it right the chance of an infection is pretty close to zero.

I realise this post will make absolutely no difference to how people on this forum brew their beer.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Homebrew beer is a very safe and trouble-free process.
> The thing you should never do is blame your equipment. If you have problems it is because you have done something wrong, you should face that so you can identify and fix the problem. The commonest cause of infection is too much air getting in. If you are using gladwrap to cover your fermenter and you get an infection look no further - the glad wrap is letting in too much oxygen. Most spoilage organisms need oxygen, keep a good seal on your fermenter and you keep out the oxygen, very low chance of getting an infection. If you open your fermenter often, have a large headspace, that lets in air that encourages infections. Any fermenter can be cleaned, hot water and soap will get rid of any bugs, and they wouldn't grow without air anyway.
> 
> I wish all these people throwing away fermenters would send them to me, I could put them to good use.
> ...


I think stating glad wrap lets too much air in not entirely correct, yes it is not an absolute air tight seal, but I tried multiple attempts with my bunnings drum fermenter lid and a super tight grommet/airlock which would never seem to seal up air tight, I'd get a bit of pressure on the airlock levels but even at high krausen I'd never see a single bubble through (even though I could hear the fermentation "fizz' going steady.
Since changing to glad wrap I've found it so much easier, especially when needing to lift the fermenter out of the fridge to take a sample I would not get airlock water sucked back into the fermenter from the weight of the vessel changing it's volume as I lifted it out, plus I can stave off my "expecting father syndrome" but being able to see in without removing the lid.
Each to their own of course but I would never discount glad wrap with a good rubber band as a poor quality seal!




manticle said:


> @timmi - been a lot flying around my place recently. I haven't had any infections from the buggers but I assumed it was a cross between next door's compost and any spilled beer in my shed since I started kegging a few weeks ago. Interesting to know it's not just my place.


+1 - I am closer to you Manticle and have been noticing a truck load of them living in my conifers and a handful come into the house, maybe my conifers are the source h34r:




Greg.L said:


> Homebrew beer is a beautifully safe and simple process. If you have problems, don't blame it on bad luck, a random infection getting into your brew.
> If you have infections, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. All the sanitiser in the world won't help if you have something wrong in your process.
> 
> You pitch a healthy population of yeast into the wort, within 24hrs a good fermentation has started producing copious amounts of co2 and alcohol into a liquid containing a strong anti-bacterial agent. You make sure that there isn't too much air space in the fermenter, no more than 10cm, you seal it with a good lid and you leave it alone at a suitable temperature. In 2 or 3 weeks, beer! If you do it right the chance of an infection is pretty close to zero.
> ...


Couldn't agree more with this!


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## Lecterfan (11/9/13)

I've had at least 10 trouble free* brews since my infection thread. The only real change I made was that I now brew in blue willow jerrys with the lid backed off slightly, two 20L and one 25L (no longer glad wrapping or using insanely top cropping yeasts...I will get back to the latter soon in the 25L willow). I also keg when the beer is ready, not 'a week or so after that because I'm lazy' haha.

Cleaning and sanitising only get you so far if your process exposes the wort to too much air, and you have 'something in the air' other than love.

I was once holier than thou about people that got infections as my cleaning and sanitising regime is fine. I'm very happy for those of you who haven't experienced it, and I hope you never have to deal with it.


edit: *other than not being totally happy with recipe, bitterness, attenuation and all the other things that picky brewers try to contend with.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

It's not about being "holier than thou". I have no interest in blaming people, I make plenty of mistakes. The point is, if you have a problem don't just say " I need to use more sanitiser" or " I have to chuck out that fermenter". Everyone makes mistakes, when you have a problem it is your chance to analyse your process and find out what the cause was and how to fix it. Almost certainly, using more sanitiser or buying a new fermenter won't fix the problem. (unless you are using an unsuitable fermenter which is quite a common problem).


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## syl (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> It's not about being "holier than thou". I have no interest in blaming people, I make plenty of mistakes. The point is, if you have a problem don't just say " I need to use more sanitiser" or " I have to chuck out that fermenter". Everyone makes mistakes, when you have a problem it is your chance to analyse your process and find out what the cause was and how to fix it. Almost certainly, using more sanitiser or buying a new fermenter won't fix the problem. (unless you are using an unsuitable fermenter which is quite a common problem).


Exactly. Throwing out the fermenter didn't work for me. It was 9 months of leak experts and house renovations... way easier :unsure:


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/9/13)

It's hard to fix mistakes through _stupidity _though, but sure is invigorating/encouraging upon realisation!

I had a recent brew which the first few pours had a sweet candy-like subtle chemical taste to it, but still a decent tasting drinkable beer, just a subtle aftertaste which had me thinking there was an infection. After about 10-15 beers poured like a switch the taste was gone and it was the beer I intended it to be. After tracing my steps and thinking through my process, I had rinsed the beer lines after a sodium perc soak, so I'm attributing that taste to the unflushed residue of sodium perc.

Next time though I'll just take my kegerator to the tip h34r:


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## stakka82 (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> If you have infections, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. All the sanitiser in the world won't help if you have something wrong in your process.


Bullshit.




Lecterfan said:


> Cleaning and sanitising only get you so far if your process exposes the wort to too much air, and you have 'something in the air' other than love.
> 
> I was once holier than thou about people that got infections as my cleaning and sanitising regime is fine. I'm very happy for those of you who haven't experienced it, and I hope you never have to deal with it.


Never truer words said.

I had 3 years without a single infection, then six months of hell. Replaced equipment. Bleached, heat treated, starsanned and sodium perc'd everything in the brewery. Still no good. Brand new gear. Infection.

Suspected it was wild yeast. Suspicions seem confirmed by Ross based on my descriptions and his experience, and from reading on descriptions of wild yeast and impact of such on wort/beer. Since then have done multiple experiments and everything points to a very, very hardy and aggressive strain of airborne wild yeast.

I now ferment off my property but do everything else on the property. Ten batches in a row not a problem, after having 6 fail in a row. They were failing when I was boiling fermenters and using new gear. Now, offsite, I just use the old non-paranoid methods of cleaning and sanitation (perc, boiling water, starsan), and everything's fine. Even with gear that had multiple infected batches brewed in it.

Sometimes it's just about luck, assuming you are taking reasonable steps towards having as sanitary brewery as possible. There's no such thing as a sterile environment.

I have a degree in biomed science and worked in pathogens laboratories for years. These are pretty sanitary places. Even so, we would often have tests fail due to cross contamination and infection, despite bleach, UV lamps, autoclaves and highly rated fumehoods/cabinets and senior phds with multiple papers under their belts.

Edit: Clarity


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## Lecterfan (11/9/13)

whoa up big fella - I was talking about me haha! :icon_cheers: If I wanted to aim my comments at someone I jolly-well would haha.

edit - and I agree entirely, my case in point - it wasn't fermenters are lack of sanitiser that was the problem. I used it as an opportunity to look at my process and refine (improve?) it.

edit again - my 'whoa up' was in reference to my "holier than thou" making a repeat performance in qoute marks - I wasn't having a crack at anyone, was commenting on my attitude and no one else's.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

stakka82 said:


> Suspected it was wild yeast. Suspicions confirmed by Ross based on my descriptions and his experience. Since then have done multiple experiments and everything points to a very, very hardy and aggressive strain of airborne wild yeast.


You have no way of knowing what is happening in your ferment. I am surprised someone with a lab background could make a statement like this, based on descriptions. I would like to see a description in scientific literature of an aggressive airborne yeast. The main spoilage yeast is brett, which is never very aggressive. This sort of claim is what makes people so confused.


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## stakka82 (11/9/13)

No worries mate, didn't mean it to come across that way, nor as a personal attack at Greg, merely the black and whiteness of his comment.


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## stakka82 (11/9/13)

Didn't say I know for sure what it was, just what seems to be the likely culprit based on changing several variables.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

The thing about aggressive airborne wild yeast ruining a brewshed doesn't really make sense. If that were true we may as well give up homebrewing now, it would be impossible under those circumstances.

One possible cause of problems is re-using yeast harvested from a brew. I know it is cheap and popular but there are inherent risks. When we pitch a yeast we shouldn't expect to have a pure culture growing in our beer. Other nasties will sometimes get in there no matter how good your sanitisation, but saccharomyces yeasts are so good they outcompete everything else. There is a brief window in the first few hours when the nasties can grow, if you re-use the yeast you are multiplying the window and the nasties can build up their populations to levels that cause problems. It is normally fine but if you do it and you get an infection, that may be the cause.

The problem with gladwrap is not just the seal, but oxygen can pass straight through plastic film, even with a pressure of co2 inside (see dalton's law). It is definitely an inferior way to seal your fermenter. You may get away with it but that doesn't mean you should do it.


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## JDW81 (11/9/13)

stakka82 said:


> Bullshit.


I'll have to disagree with you on your disagreement with Greg.

While I will conceded that infections can happen sporadically, the overwhelming majority of infections are due to a problem in someones process somewhere along the production line. The most common one I see is people not washing their fermenters properly prior to sanitising, and as per Greg above if your process is flawed then all the sanitiser in the world is not going to stop unwanted organisms infecting your brew. You might get away with it most of the time, but an infection is inevitable at some stage. It is impossible to sanitise a fermenter if it isn't clean in the first place.


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## mje1980 (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> The thing about aggressive airborne wild yeast ruining a brewshed doesn't really make sense. If that were true we may as well give up homebrewing now, it would be impossible under those circumstances.
> 
> One possible cause of problems is re-using yeast harvested from a brew. I know it is cheap and popular but there are inherent risks. When we pitch a yeast we shouldn't expect to have a pure culture growing in our beer. Other nasties will sometimes get in there no matter how good your sanitisation, but saccharomyces yeasts are so good they outcompete everything else. There is a brief window in the first few hours when the nasties can grow, if you re-use the yeast you are multiplying the window and the nasties can build up their populations to levels that cause problems. It is normally fine but if you do it and you get an infection, that may be the cause.
> 
> The problem with gladwrap is not just the seal, but oxygen can pass straight through plastic film, even with a pressure of co2 inside (see dalton's law). It is definitely an inferior way to seal your fermenter. You may get away with it but that doesn't mean you should do it.



You are aware that a huge number of breweries in Europe use open fermenters right?. They don't worry too much about sealing their fermenting vessels or oxygen getting in the way?


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## stakka82 (11/9/13)

My problem happened with both sealed and glad wrapped fermenters.

It also happned with a brand new fermenter, washing is not the issue.

It happened with repitched, and fresh liquid and dry yeast.

It has since stopped happening when moving to a different environment but keeping all other variables constant.




Greg.L said:


> but saccharomyces yeasts are so good they outcompete everything else.


Have a google of killer toxin viruses in yeast, and the transmission of viruses between wild/wild and wild/domestic strains. Yeast populations swap genes all the time due to reproduction or pathogens. Add in a few genes for increased dispersal via air currents and it's theoretically possible. Not saying this is the culprit but it's certainly a possibility. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_yeast

http://rna.genomics.purdue.edu/@api/deki/files/1186/%3DYeast_killer_toxins%25252c_lethality_and_protection.pdf

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1275037001


"-All ale yeast are 'susceptible.' Most wine yeasts are killer. That means that wine yeast added to a fermenting ale will kill off the ale yeast already present."

The abstract in this one is especially interesting

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jctb.5020260208/abstract


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

mje1980 said:


> You are aware that a huge number of breweries in Europe use open fermenters right?. They don't worry too much about sealing their fermenting vessels or oxygen getting in the way?


This is another trap for homebrewers, the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy. Go to any microbrewery in Australia, you will see the fermenters are full, closed up and well sealed. If they aren't, they will be in a while after their first few infections. KEEP THE AIR OUT. Four simple words that will prevent a whole lot of heartbreak.

A lot of infection photos I have seen have half-full fermenters. This is another obvious problem. A big airspace will make it much easier for oxygen to get in, if you want to do a smaller brew you need a smaller fermenter.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> The problem with gladwrap is not just the seal, but oxygen can pass straight through plastic film, even with a pressure of co2 inside (see dalton's law). It is definitely an inferior way to seal your fermenter. You may get away with it but that doesn't mean you should do it.





Greg.L said:


> This is another trap for homebrewers, the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy. Go to any microbrewery in Australia, you will see the fermenters are full, closed up and well sealed. If they aren't, they will be in a while after their first few infections. KEEP THE AIR OUT. Four simple words that will prevent a whole lot of heartbreak.
> 
> A lot of infection photos I have seen have half-full fermenters. This is another obvious problem. A big airspace will make it much easier for oxygen to get in, if you want to do a smaller brew you need a smaller fermenter.


Fair enough Dalton's law states partial gas pressures allow such a transfer at the interface point (ie. glad wrap barrier), but surely with a bulk volume above the wort of more dense CO2 you will have enough of a barrier that the air will not travel downward through the more dense CO2 to come into contact with the wort, it defies physics/gravity? This also would suggest your suggestion of decreasing head space in a fermenter does not help as this would reduce the volume of CO2 protection above the wort, does it not?


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Fair enough Dalton's law states partial gas pressures allow such a transfer at the interface point (ie. glad wrap barrier), but surely with a bulk volume above the wort of more dense CO2 you will have enough of a barrier that the air will not travel downward through the more dense CO2 to come into contact with the wort, it defies physics/gravity? This also would suggest your suggestion of decreasing head space in a fermenter does not help as this would reduce the volume of CO2 protection above the wort, does it not?


Sorry but you don't really understand partial pressures. Two different gases, such as co2 and o2 can mix fully without increasing the volume. Because there is no o2 inside the fermenter and lots outside, there is a strong concentration gradient drawing the o2 into the fermenter. It is very counter-intuitive and difficult to appreciate, but a blanket of co2 doesn't stop the o2. Once the oxygen gets in, aerobic spoilage bugs like acetobacter and film yeasts can go to town on the surface of the beer. If you see stuff growing on the surface then that is usually an indication that oxygen is present.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Sorry but you don't really understand partial pressures. Two different gases, such as co2 and o2 can mix fully without increasing the volume. Because there is no o2 inside the fermenter and lots outside, there is a strong concentration gradient drawing the o2 into the fermenter. It is very counter-intuitive and difficult to appreciate, but a blanket of co2 doesn't stop the o2. Once the oxygen gets in, aerobic spoilage bugs like acetobacter and film yeasts can go to town on the surface of the beer. If you see stuff growing on the surface then that is usually an indication that oxygen is present.


It's a very interesting concept (albeit the wiki description says it is not followed by real gases as strictly as the definition), but it does make me wonder if practically, the O2 passing across the glad wrap would be filtered of airborne bugs somewhat? Because due to the partial pressure theory, by the end of a standard 2 week fermentation process the head space of the fermenter is a complete mix of CO2 and O2, surely most people using glad wrap lids would be finding oxidation occurs on the surface at the very least?

There is also the practicality argument for those needing to lift the fermenter to take a sample, in order to stop airlock water being sucked into the beer I'd need to remove the airlock, opening a hole allowing air travel far more easily than a glad wrap lid true?


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> It's a very interesting concept (albeit the wiki description says it is not followed by real gases as strictly as the definition), but it does make me wonder if practically, the O2 passing across the glad wrap would be filtered of airborne bugs somewhat? Because due to the partial pressure theory, by the end of a standard 2 week fermentation process the head space of the fermenter is a complete mix of CO2 and O2, surely most people using glad wrap lids would be finding oxidation occurs on the surface at the very least?
> 
> There is also the practicality argument for those needing to lift the fermenter to take a sample, in order to stop airlock water being sucked into the beer I'd need to remove the airlock, opening a hole allowing air travel far more easily than a glad wrap lid true?


It is true that glad wrap stops airborn bugs, that is its main purpose. However we can never achieve sterile brewing, there will often be some acetobacter and film yeast in your brew already. I am not saying glad wrap will always cause oxidation and infection, just that it makes problems more likely. Just as you can never keep all the germs out, you can never keep all the air out but you have to do your best and minimise air contact at every step. It is the same principle as sanitising, you are not aiming for total control, just minimising the risk.


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## JDW81 (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> This is another trap for homebrewers, the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy. Go to any microbrewery in Australia, you will see the fermenters are full, closed up and well sealed. If they aren't, they will be in a while after their first few infections. KEEP THE AIR OUT.


What about White Rabbit? They use open fermenters and their beer is infection free to my palate.


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## CosmicBertie (11/9/13)

Research 'Yorkshire Square'. Beer has been brewed this way for many, many years.


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## wide eyed and legless (11/9/13)

On a lighter note regarding yeast infections, I have read of a american brewer, I think it was the head brewer from Rogue brewery keeps yeast in his beard. Now if this is the case and he decides to do a bit of "Muff Diving" will he give her a yeast infection or if she already has a yeast infection will it affect his yeast ?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> It is true that glad wrap stops airborn bugs, that is its main purpose. However we can never achieve sterile brewing, there will often be some acetobacter and film yeast in your brew already. I am not saying glad wrap will always cause oxidation and infection, just that it makes problems more likely. Just as you can never keep all the germs out, you can never keep all the air out but you have to do your best and minimise air contact at every step. It is the same principle as sanitising, you are not aiming for total control, just minimising the risk.


Apologies if I am missing something, but I fail to see how glad wrap has a detrimental impact on fermenting techniques versus a lid and airlock based on what you have just said and our previous discussion. If you never need to remove the airlock for the entire brew then sure I can see that _potentially _the glad wrap is providing less resistance to air ingress. But in the real world I am sure along with myself, most of us would need to remove the airlock to avoid the water being sucked into the brew when lifting the FV which allows more air ingress than just the glad wrap lid?


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## spryzie (11/9/13)

You don't need an airlock.

I do use a lid of course - but no airlock.

If you don't work in a room full of sterile air, then you're just putting an airlock on a container with wort and air full of bacteria already.

The magic is the yeast you inoculate the wort with will dominate the environment if you pitch immediately and get fermentation occurring soon after.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

I really don't see much point in saying some brewers use open fermenters. Either you accept that you should keep air out or you don't. I would regard keeping air out as well established "best practice" for home brewers (and commercial brewers). If you want to go down the path of glad wrap, no airlock , half full fermenter etc then you have decided to accept a certain level of risk, that's fine but I don't think you should advise others to go that path. In terms of a thread on infections, oxygen is the main cause of infections so I am offering advice on keeping oxygen out.


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## mje1980 (11/9/13)

So what about all the people who hit their wort with pure oxygen at pitching time?. Are they all risking infection?


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## CosmicBertie (11/9/13)

Surely its not oxygen that causes the infection, but the bacteria that is carried around by air. Oxygen has to be present for bacteria to grow (thus the aerobic phase of yeast growth) and thats why people splash their wort, shake the fermenter or pump oxygen through it. Catalyst.

Anyway, I was under the impression that oxygen that you pass through the wort at pitching time comes from a filter source.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> Surely its not oxygen that causes the infection, but the bacteria that is carried around by air. Oxygen has to be present for bacteria to grow (thus the aerobic phase of yeast growth) and thats why people splash their wort, shake the fermenter or pump oxygen through it. Catalyst.
> 
> Anyway, I was under the impression that oxygen that you pass through the wort at pitching time comes from a filter source.


As I said before, most of the spoilage bugs are aerobic. You see an infection growing on the surface because that is the interface where oxygen in the air and sugar in the wort are both available. If you see stuff growing on the surface it means there is oxygen present. No oxygen, no infection.
As for aerating before pitching, that isn't relevant. Yeast use oxygen initially but quickly change to anaerobic fermentation, having used up all the dissolved oxygen. This stuff is pretty basic brewing 101.

you can compare keeping out air to sanitising. No-one would advise using a dirty fermenter, but if you use a dirty fermenter you probably won't have any problems, chances are you could keep using a dirty fermenter for a while without getting an infection. But why would you, we all know it is better to use a clean fermenter?

Unlike dirt oxygen is colourless and odorless, necessary for life. But you don't want it getting near your beer, it can only cause problems. At a low level it may not cause problems, but beyond a certain level it is 100% certain to ruin your beer. Why take the chance?


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## mje1980 (11/9/13)

Relating back to my other post, if this is the case, why do so many uk and European breweries have no problem with open fermentations??. I know I love beers like Samuel smith etc, which are open fermented and taste great. A lot of uk breweries also "double drop", where 24 hours after pitching, dump the wort into another fermenting vessel, that quite clearly and obviously adds lots of air into the beer. Again, those beers are beautiful


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## Dave70 (11/9/13)

Doesn't the yeast producce 



Greg.L said:


> As I said before, most of the spoilage bugs are aerobic. You see an infection growing on the surface because that is the *interface where oxygen in the air and sugar in the wort are both available*. If you see stuff growing on the surface it means there is oxygen present. No oxygen, no infection.
> As for aerating before pitching, that isn't relevant. Yeast use oxygen initially but quickly change to anaerobic fermentation, having used up all the dissolved oxygen. This stuff is pretty basic brewing 101.
> 
> you can compare keeping out air to sanitising. No-one would advise using a dirty fermenter, but if you use a dirty fermenter you probably won't have any problems, chances are you could keep using a dirty fermenter for a while without getting an infection. But why would you, we all know it is better to use a clean fermenter?
> ...


Wouldn't you assume because the yeast are basically farting CO2 and simultaneously providing a blanket over the wort while displacing air, that would be enough to prevent airborne infection?
Or is the poultry amount of O2 in the CO2 all the bugs need to thrive?

Maby we could lower the risk with a squirt of gas before screwing down the lid or snapping on the glad wrap?


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## spryzie (11/9/13)

As for best practice for home brewers - I use a Coopers fermenter and it doesn't bother with airlocks.


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## warra48 (11/9/13)

mje1980 said:


> Relating back to my other post, if this is the case, why do so many uk and European breweries have no problem with open fermentations??. I know I love beers like Samuel smith etc, which are open fermented and taste great. A lot of uk breweries also "double drop", where 24 hours after pitching, dump the wort into another fermenting vessel, that quite clearly and obviously adds lots of air into the beer. Again, those beers are beautiful


Those beers are beautiful, but they also pitch a truckload of healthy yeast, and get a fermentation kicking off quick smart.

I'm not convinced all of us homebrewers always pitch enough healthy yeast to kick off a good fermentation. You only need to look up all the posts etc about delays in fermentation kicking off and lack of gloops in airlocks etc to realise that.

I have had some infections and dumped some brews, but I know the reasons in my case, and it is down to brewer error. Provided your brewing environment and all your equipment is clean, you follow proper sanitation techniques, and pitch an adequate quantity of healthy yeast after good aeration, you are surely close to guaranteeing a successful brew.


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## GalBrew (11/9/13)

warra48 said:


> Provided your brewing environment and all your equipment is clean, you follow proper sanitation techniques, and pitch an adequate quantity of healthy yeast, you are surely close to guaranteeing a successful brew.


That sounds far too much like good advice warra.......reported. :lol:


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## SimoB (11/9/13)

The rising damp thing is interesting, Strobe hit me up today. I had a drip tray from my keg system that I hadnt cleaned in ages and it was pretty dam funky i must say./ Some moldy business going on. i reckon that shiz was getting into my business and resulting in some shitty beer.

Have brewed some winners recently though so no drama there


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## Camo6 (11/9/13)

My drip tray is between the ferment fridge and where I store my grain mill. If I leave it full of spillage for a week it gets some lovely films growing on top. Probably risking it and need a bigger shed but haven't had a batch infection in almost five years of brewing, touch wood. I reckon when I do get one it'll be the result of brewer error. Beer and beer making just don't mix but at the same time are so damn good together.
That being said there's some pretty experienced brewers on here, from whom I've gleaned a lot of information, that have suffered from persisting infections despite the thoroughness of their procedures. Goes to show there are some variables which you can't always account for outside of brewing in a vacuum.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/9/13)

Camo6 said:


> brewing in a vacuum.


Bulk buy on shed-sized vacuum chambers?!


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

Blaming a drip tray for your bad brews - I think you've seen too many episodes of "House".


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## mje1980 (11/9/13)

Blaming oxygen for a lot of people's infections. You've been watching too much..... Well **** I don't know what you've been watching too much of.


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## Camo6 (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Blaming a drip tray for your bad brews - I think you've seen too many episodes of "House".


I think it's more a case of proving how prevalent wild yeasts and bacterias can be in a home brewing environment.

I pour my drip tray dregs into a glass carboy as I can't stand seeing any alcohol wasted. I call it a "Lush Lambic." :icon_vomit:


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

In the old days it was quite common for pubs to redirect their drip trays back to a barrel to be served again as "old". Maybe some pubs still do it.


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## adryargument (11/9/13)

Camo6 said:


> I think it's more a case of proving how prevalent wild yeasts and bacterias can be in a home brewing environment.
> 
> I pour my drip tray dregs into a glass carboy as I can't stand seeing any alcohol wasted. I call it a "Lush Lambic." :icon_vomit:



Not only how prevalent wild yeasts and bacterias can be, but how prevalent they can be in *your* location.
My old place in sydney was in the shade of a big ass rock mountain and received 10% sunlight. The brewery area got 0%.
Mould grew, and bricks turned black withing a few weeks if not cleaned constantly.

I found that once yeast dropped from suspension, acetobacter would pickup around a fortnight later. There was no stopping this. 3 weeks was the longest i could keep beer in a fermenter. However at my new place in brisbane i can pretty much ferment how i wish without the same sideeffects.

Infections in my opinion can simply be a matter of sorroundings - the same reason i had cronic hayfever at my last place and not here in sunny mould free queensland.


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## Black Devil Dog (11/9/13)

Great discussion.

I wonder what some of you think the infection risk associated with a starter is, given that the starter needs to be oxygenated to do its job properly and for me at least, a piece of foil pressed around the opening of the flask is the only barrier. The starter is on a stir plate.


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## Greg.L (11/9/13)

adryargument said:


> I found that once yeast dropped from suspension, acetobacter would pickup around a fortnight later. There was no stopping this. 3 weeks was the longest i could keep beer in a fermenter. However at my new place in brisbane i can pretty much ferment how i wish without the same sideeffects.
> 
> Infections in my opinion can simply be a matter of sorroundings - the same reason i had cronic hayfever at my last place and not here in sunny mould free queensland.



Acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria, if you can keep the air out you won't get it no matter what your environment.


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## andytork (11/9/13)

I've been infected in lots of places for lots of reasons :blink:

Sorry are we talking about beer here ?


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## adryargument (11/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria, if you can keep the air out you won't get it no matter what your environment.


Of course! I fully understand this, but using gladwrap as a fermenter cover always permeates oxygen once the CO2 pressure has escaped the same way. The exact same way that the plastic fermenters are made with also allow oxygen through. Which invites the 'subdued' bug to develop.

The only time i never had this was when i had a 100L barrel of Berliner Weisse for 4 months barrel aging. I kegged 40L, then moved 60L to secondary. Same thing 4 weeks later. This includes new fermenters.

Either the increased pressure allowance of the barrel, or the low PH or whatever it may be. It was kept in the worst conditions and survived fully intact. As soon as it was allowed in the natural environment / airways of my place it died. hard.


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## Thefatdoghead (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Sorry but you don't really understand partial pressures. Two different gases, such as co2 and o2 can mix fully without increasing the volume. Because there is no o2 inside the fermenter and lots outside, there is a strong concentration gradient drawing the o2 into the fermenter. It is very counter-intuitive and difficult to appreciate, but a blanket of co2 doesn't stop the o2. Once the oxygen gets in, aerobic spoilage bugs like acetobacter and film yeasts can go to town on the surface of the beer. If you see stuff growing on the surface then that is usually an indication that oxygen is present.



When I first started I was using a lid and an air lock. The amount of times I took a sample or picked up the fermenter and had the old water from the airlock gurgle back down into the beer, quiet a few times. 
These days I'm glad wrap or just a lid with oring and no hole for the airlock and its all good. 
I have got an infection now though and I know what it was from. I can say 100% it wasn't from using glad wrap. It was from being lazy with yeast into a lager and I had to leave. When I got back a week later there was no action. No infection either. Pitched some dry yeast and the lager finished. 6 weeks down the track I looked under the lid to find a white pelicle on the service. Smelled sour. 

So that's how I got my first infection. Pitching yeast from an old batch and not pitching enough in a lager then letting it sit for a week. Lesson learned. Tried cleaning the fermenter with PBW then bleach then filled with boiling water then PBW then starsan. Thought it was all good but no. Next batch fucked. So ill be tipping 80 liters of beer when I get home, throwing out a heap of beer line and a filter and contemplating how ill clean the fermenter again. 60 liter ferm so I'm not getting rid of it.


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## Greg.L (12/9/13)

No way can you leave beer for 6 weeks under gladwrap, very high chance it will spoil. This thing about airlocks drawing water back into the brew is a non-issue. By this stage the saccharomyces yeast will be going full bore, the beer will have alcohol, co2 and a dominant yeast strain. There is no risk that a little bit of water from your airlock will spoil your beer. People like to imagine they have this semi-sterile situation but it isn't like that, a good ferment will take care of itself. Lots of professionals around the world use airlocks without problems. The air you are letting in is much more harmful than a little bit of water from an airlock. Airlocks are a widely accepted technology over many years, I think you should trust that they are suitable for homebrewers to use.

People shouldn't obsess over a particular point of infection. Homebrewing isn't like medicine, don't imagine you are "House" chasing down the cause of an infection. Just get your process right, use clean equipment and keep the air out, I guarantee you won't have any problems.


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## mje1980 (12/9/13)

These guys are clearly doing it wrong.

I'm going to clarify my comments here. I believe that providing the yeast with pure oxygen at the start of fermentation is beneficial, and is recommended by knowledgable brewers. Even aerating a starter via constant shaking/ agitating is also beneficial. 

Adding air/ oxygen once fermentation has been completed is detrimental and can definately cause problems. In context of this thread, I can't ever recall seeing a thread where someone has complained of infection after aerating their beer after fermentation, I doubt anyone would do that.


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## Thefatdoghead (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> No way can you leave beer for 6 weeks under gladwrap, very high chance it will spoil. This thing about airlocks drawing water back into the brew is a non-issue. By this stage the saccharomyces yeast will be going full bore, the beer will have alcohol, co2 and a dominant yeast strain. There is no risk that a little bit of water from your airlock will spoil your beer. People like to imagine they have this semi-sterile situation but it isn't like that, a good ferment will take care of itself. Lots of professionals around the world use airlocks without problems. The air you are letting in is much more harmful than a little bit of water from an airlock. Airlocks are a widely accepted technology over many years, I think you should trust that they are suitable for homebrewers to use.
> 
> People shouldn't obsess over a particular point of infection. Homebrewing isn't like medicine, don't imagine you are "House" chasing down the cause of an infection. Just get your process right, use clean equipment and keep the air out, I guarantee you won't have any problems.


I work away at sea so, I leave beer for 5-7 weeks at a time on the yeast and only glad wrap. I never have a problem. 
As for keeping air out, check out the 120minute IPA on the homebrewchef.com he adds oxygen with dextrose several times throughout fermentation to get to 21% alcohol (from memory). 
I agree keeping air out is the way to go but your just not going to get air in when Co2 is billowing out past the glad wrap. Guys use glad wrap all the time with no problems what so ever including me. It is "keeping the air out".


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## Tilt (12/9/13)

Quick fix if you're concerned about water in the airlock sucking back into the fermenter - use no rinse sanitiser or vodka instead to keep the greeblies out.


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## Greg.L (12/9/13)

Man you guys are amazing. Those photos have absolutely nothing to do with homebrew. This is the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy again. Sure you can leave your brew uncovered for the first few days without any problems, but why would you do that? it doesn't make any sense. Put a good lid on it and keep it on. It's very simple and foolproof. Why would you want to do the guessing game of wondering when to cover your beer?

Once fermentation starts to slow down, those vats will be pumped into stainless steel tanks full right to the top, with absolutely no way for air to get in. That is how the professionals do it. SS is much better than plastic but most homebrewers can't afford it, Glass is excellent but for the short fermenting times of homebrew plastic is fine, so long as it is well sealed. You will never find a professional who allows air near their beer after the vigorous fermentation has died down. If you do I would seriously question their qualifications and experience.

(here come all the weird examples of brewers who aerate their beer)


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## JDW81 (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> plastic is fine, so long as it is well sealed.


This seems to be where the problem lies. I have three different fermenters, different sizes and brands and all of them do not seal properly. I have used the all with an airlock and there is no evidence of air/CO2 escaping through the airlock*. I pick them up and there is no suck-back of water. I am a proponent of glad wrap and have been using it for years, with no infection and I can guarantee that glad wrap, held on with the o-ring seals far better than any of my fermenter lids will. If I went and bought a new fermenter every time I found one that didn't seal properly I'd have a garage full of useless fermenters.

I totally agree that oxygen has a big role in infection, as does not pitching sufficient yeast or poor sanitising practices, but suggesting that glad wrap is a dramatic risk to your beer isn't quite accurate, considering most fermenters you buy (well at least I've bought) don't seal properly. Glad wrap may present a theoretical risk, but apparently no chilling your beer gives you a risk of botulism and if you believe the nay-sayers it should be impossible to no-chill any beer which has a fair quantity of pilsner malt in it. There are plenty of home brewers who cover their fermenters with glad wrap and don't have any problems with infection or oxidation and there are just as many who make excellent no-chilled pilsners. 

JD.

*Yes I realise that the airlock is not a great guide of fermentation etc, etc, etc, it does however give a good indication of how well sealed your vessel is.


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## Greg.L (12/9/13)

I'm starting to think that you guys are taking the piss, probably have been for a while. That's fine, if you post on a forum you have to take what you get. It's a pity that this subject is taken so lightly when infections are an obvious problem for some on this forum and there is so much bad advice recirculated. Homebrewing is a very safe and reliable hobby, that is why it is so popular. Infections are generally unheard of yet of they are often mentioned on this forum. That must mean something. If you have an infection on the surface of your beer it is because of oxygen.




JDW81 said:


> This seems to be where the problem lies. I have three different fermenters, different sizes and brands and all of them do not seal properly. I have used the all with an airlock and there is no evidence of air/CO2 escaping through the airlock*. I pick them up and there is no suck-back of water. I am a proponent of glad wrap and have been using it for years, with no infection and I can guarantee that glad wrap, held on with the o-ring seals far better than any of my fermenter lids will. If I went and bought a new fermenter every time I found one that didn't seal properly I'd have a garage full of useless fermenters.
> 
> I totally agree that oxygen has a big role in infection, as does not pitching sufficient yeast or poor sanitising practices, but suggesting that glad wrap is a dramatic risk to your beer isn't quite accurate, considering most fermenters you buy (well at least I've bought) don't seal properly. Glad wrap may present a theoretical risk, but apparently no chilling your beer gives you a risk of botulism and if you believe the nay-sayers it should be impossible to no-chill any beer which has a fair quantity of pilsner malt in it. There are plenty of home brewers who cover their fermenters with glad wrap and don't have any problems with infection or oxidation and there are just as many who make excellent no-chilled pilsners.
> 
> ...


Any fermenter with a rubber o-ring will give you a good seal. Even snap-on lids will seal far better than gladwrap. I see I will never make any headway on the glad wrap thing. Somethings just will be, whatever.


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## JDW81 (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> I'm starting to think that you guys are taking the piss, probably have been for a while. That's fine, if you post on a forum you have to take what you get. It's a pity that this subject is taken so lightly when infections are an obvious problem for some
> 
> Any fermenter with a rubber o-ring will give you a good seal. Even snap-on lids will seal far better than gladwrap. I see I will never make any headway on the glad wrap thing. Somethings just will be, whatever.


Infections have never been a problem for me. I've made hundreds of batches and am still yet to have an infection.

My fermenters all have a rubber o-ring and still don't seal.

I'm also not trying to take to piss, or be antagonistic for the sake of it, I'm simply passing on my observations and experience. I am a proponent of glad wrap, you aren't. I make pretty good beer and I'm sure you do to.

JD


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> I'm starting to think that you guys are taking the piss, probably have been for a while. That's fine, if you post on a forum you have to take what you get. It's a pity that this subject is taken so lightly when infections are an obvious problem for some on this forum and there is so much bad advice recirculated. Homebrewing is a very safe and reliable hobby, that is why it is so popular. Infections are generally unheard of yet of they are often mentioned on this forum. That must mean something. If you have an infection on the surface of your beer it is because of oxygen.
> 
> 
> 
> Any fermenter with a rubber o-ring will give you a good seal. Even snap-on lids will seal far better than gladwrap. I see I will never make any headway on the glad wrap thing. Somethings just will be, whatever.





JDW81 said:


> Infections have never been a problem for me. I've made hundreds of batches and am still yet to have an infection.
> 
> My fermenters all have a rubber o-ring and still don't seal.
> 
> ...


I've got to absolutely agree with JDW81 on this as while yes the topic is causes of infection, putting aside procedure and sanitation methods, it is plain wrong to state that glad wrap poses any greater a risk than a plastic lid (with or without an airlock), all the science and partial pressure theories can attempt to say oxygen is going to get in and mix with the CO2 and make contact with the brew, but empirical evidence suggests this is not the case as suggested by countless brewers who choose to use glad wrap.

Whichever method you are going to use, ensure the lid, thread, o-ring seals and the fermenter itself are adequately sterilised and sanitised so that you find yourself sitting in the extremely unlikely risk category for an infection from oxygen/airborne bacteria.


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## mje1980 (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Man you guys are amazing. Those photos have absolutely nothing to do with homebrew. This is the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy again. Sure you can leave your brew uncovered for the first few days without any problems, but why would you do that? it doesn't make any sense. Put a good lid on it and keep it on. It's very simple and foolproof. Why would you want to do the guessing game of wondering when to cover your beer?
> 
> Once fermentation starts to slow down, those vats will be pumped into stainless steel tanks full right to the top, with absolutely no way for air to get in. That is how the professionals do it. SS is much better than plastic but most homebrewers can't afford it, Glass is excellent but for the short fermenting times of homebrew plastic is fine, so long as it is well sealed. You will never find a professional who allows air near their beer after the vigorous fermentation has died down. If you do I would seriously question their qualifications and experience.
> 
> (here come all the weird examples of brewers who aerate their beer)



What is your opinion of people injecting pure oxygen into their wort in the first stages of fermentation??. I have the "yeast" book, by Jamil zainasheff, and Chris white, and there is plenty of good reading about the importance of oxygen in the beginning of fermentation. Should I throw this book out now??


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## JDW81 (12/9/13)

mje1980 said:


> What is your opinion of people injecting pure oxygen into their wort in the first stages of fermentation??. I have the "yeast" book, by Jamil zainasheff, and Chris white, and there is plenty of good reading about the importance of oxygen in the beginning of fermentation. Should I throw this book out now??


I'm pretty sure Greg isn't suggesting O2 at the start of fermentation is the issue, in fact it is of vital importance to the early stages of yeast growth. Late oxygen exposure is the issue here due to the risk it poses for the growth of aerobes at the air-liquid interface.

JD


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## Rocker1986 (12/9/13)

I've never liked the glad wrap method myself, the idea that all that's between my brew and whatever in the outside air is a flimsy piece of plastic doesn't sit well with me. I'd much prefer a solid lid. If something fell onto the gladwrap, and through it, the brew would be fucked. This isn't really a problem in a brewing fridge of course, but I still prefer the lid. It doesn't seal well enough to have any movement either way through the air lock, so nothing gets sucked into it anyway. I have one of those two piece airlocks as opposed to the S bend ones so that may be part of it.


I'm not suggesting there is any more risk of infection from outside nasties with glad wrap however. I did make a brew and used the glad wrap method once, and the beer turned out like shit. Whether this was anything to do with using glad wrap or whether it was just a dud recipe, I'm not sure, but it was pretty well undrinkable until about 5 or 6 months later. That was my experience, obviously a lot of people are using glad wrap with no problems. Just do whatever works for you, if you aren't getting any infections then why worry about it?

I have had one infection in 25 batches. My first proper lager attempt ended up with a mould infection about 3 hours after pitching a yeast starter. The starter was infected and I should have known by the smell but anyway, you live and learn. I fished out this offending mould with a sterilized/sanitized mash paddle, by the next day there was no sign of it and the brew actually turned out well with no problems at all. I guess the yeast killed off any remaining shit during its growth phase.


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## Greg.L (12/9/13)

I decided to list all the bad advice in this thread. Very negative I know, bad karma:

Use Gladwrap to seal your fermenter.

Don't use an airlock

Try to find a point source when you get an infection (eg dripper tray)

If you sanitise all your equipment properly you won't get infections.

If you get an infection throw out your fermenter

If you get an infection move to a new brew shed

It is ok to make homebrew in an open fermenter

Yeast use oxygen at the start of fermentation so oxygen can't be bad.

All of this is bad advice for homebrewers.
I'm sure there is some other stuff in there (Not including mine) but I'm buggered if I will read back over the thread.


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## Camo6 (12/9/13)

Why do you think its unimportant to pinpoint a source of infection? If you get an infection then as you stated you've made a mistake. Why wouldn't you want to find out where, when and why so you don't make that same mistake again. Making great beer is all about refining your process. I'm not quite there yet but I can taste the difference in every improvement of my process.


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## mje1980 (12/9/13)

Greg you forgot the one about oxygen causing infections


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## Rocker1986 (12/9/13)

I must agree with Camo there. How are you meant to eliminate or fix the issue causing an infection if you don't bother trying to find out what the cause is? 

It's not just air getting in that can cause infections. It could also be dirty taps, improperly cleaned/sanitized fermenters, or anything else that comes in contact with the brew.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/9/13)

Rocker1986 said:


> I must agree with Camo there. How are you meant to eliminate or fix the issue causing an infection if you don't bother trying to find out what the cause is?
> 
> It's not just air getting in that can cause infections. It could also be dirty taps, improperly cleaned/sanitized fermenters, or anything else that comes in contact with the brew.


and not re-hydrating your yeast h34r:


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## Greg.L (12/9/13)

Camo6 said:


> Why do you think its unimportant to pinpoint a source of infection? If you get an infection then as you stated you've made a mistake. Why wouldn't you want to find out where, when and why so you don't make that same mistake again. Making great beer is all about refining your process. I'm not quite there yet but I can taste the difference in every improvement of my process.


All your equipment should be easily cleanable. Infections can only start when you are at the stage of cooling down wort. From this stage on everything should be easy to clean, and cleaned after each use. Basically you are just talking about your fermenter and taps. You shouldn't go running round the room looking for something to blame. In any case it is impossible to be sure of the origins of an infection, and it doesn't really matter. Keep everything clean, keep out the air. It ain't complicated.


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## wide eyed and legless (12/9/13)

One tip for those who are having issues with fermenter lids not sealing, smearing the "O" ring with Vaseline should fix it.


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## Camo6 (12/9/13)

But you've obviously got your process sorted and it works. However there would be a lot of new brewers not as learned as thou who may not consider separating their taps or minimising oxidation. Therefore, when looking for solutions, it's important for them to scrutinise their process so they can rectify the problem. It also makes it easier for other brewers to help with diagnosis. Its easy to say you're at fault, not so easy to say what you did wrong.
I fix cars all day and if I know there's a part failing I need to find the cause of the problem. Otherwise the problem will keep returning no matter how well I fix the concern.


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## Toper (12/9/13)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> and not re-hydrating your yeast h34r:


Or a single fruit tree in your backyard :lol:


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## SimoB (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> I decided to list all the bad advice in this thread. Very negative I know, bad karma:
> 
> Use Gladwrap to seal your fermenter.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I gave any advice regarding the drip tray. Just looking for a possible cause. Pin pointing can't be bad thing surely, or classified as 'bad advice'. 

I think that is bad advice to be honest. I moved to a new brew rig and this is where i started to run into problems. It was a brewer on this forum that pin pointed that is was the point of cooled wort which helped pin point my infection.

A lot of pin pointing.


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## verysupple (12/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> Sorry but you don't really understand partial pressures. Two different gases, such as co2 and o2 can mix fully without increasing the volume. Because there is no o2 inside the fermenter and lots outside, there is a strong concentration gradient drawing the o2 into the fermenter. It is very counter-intuitive and difficult to appreciate, but a blanket of co2 doesn't stop the o2. Once the oxygen gets in, aerobic spoilage bugs like acetobacter and film yeasts can go to town on the surface of the beer. If you see stuff growing on the surface then that is usually an indication that oxygen is present.


This whole discussion of CO2 and O2 partial pressures is completely irrelevant in the case of glad wrapping. The nasties aren't attached to O2 molecules, they are usually on dust particles and the like. While O2 can certainly get through glad wrap, particles large enough for wild yeast, bacteria etc. to be hitching a ride on are far too large. 

The issue of O2 getting through is a whole other argument that I'm sure I've read on AHB a bunch of times before.


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## Greg.L (13/9/13)

You have missed the point that most infections are aerobic, requiring oxygen. This is the main reason you want to keep air put of your brew. Sure, oxidation is also a potential problem, but if you can keep oxygen out of a good, vigorous ferment the chance of an infection is very low. Use glad wrap and you are letting oxygen in, the chance of an infection rises exponentially. I don't know why it is so hard to get folks to understand that the main cause of infection is oxygen, not poor sanitation. That is why the issue of partial pressures is so important, a blanket of co2 does not keep out o2.


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## verysupple (13/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> You have missed the point that most infections are aerobic, requiring oxygen. This is the main reason you want to keep air put of your brew. Sure, oxidation is also a potential problem, but if you can keep oxygen out of a good, vigorous ferment the chance of an infection is very low. Use glad wrap and you are letting oxygen in, the chance of an infection rises exponentially. I don't know why it is so hard to get folks to understand that the main cause of infection is oxygen, not poor sanitation. That is why the issue of partial pressures is so important, a blanket of co2 does not keep out o2.


I know what your point was. Yes, most infections require oxygen. I find it very hard to believe that the risk of infection rises "exponentially" using glad wrap. Do you purge 100% of oxygen from the FV before you seal it up? If you don't then there's already more O2 in the FV than will make it through the glad wrap. There will always be O2 in the FV, so saying that oxygen causes infections and poor sanitation doesn't is just naive.

One more thing, if there is so much O2 getting through the glad wrap and into the beer, why don't glad wrapper's beers always turn out oxidised? Oh that's right, the bugs used the oxygen. But wait, glad wrapper's beers more often than not don't turn out oxidised _or_ infected. What happened to all that O2?


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## Greg.L (13/9/13)

verysupple said:


> I know what your point was. Yes, most infections require oxygen. I find it very hard to believe that the risk of infection rises "exponentially" using glad wrap. Do you purge 100% of oxygen from the FV before you seal it up? If you don't then there's already more O2 in the FV than will make it through the glad wrap. There will always be O2 in the FV, so saying that oxygen causes infections and poor sanitation doesn't is just naive.
> 
> One more thing, if there is so much O2 getting through the glad wrap and into the beer, why don't glad wrapper's beers always turn out oxidised? Oh that's right, the bugs used the oxygen. But wait, glad wrapper's beers more often than not don't turn out oxidised _or_ infected. What happened to all that O2?


A few points.

The wort starts out saturated with oxygen. You pitch a yeast and the yeast rapidly multiply and consume all the oxygen. many volumes of co2 are produced and the headspace of the fermenter is purged of oxygen. Then the fermentation slows down - the yeast will no longer consume all the oxygen and the flow of co2 slows considerably. If the fermenter is not sealed it becomes possible for oxygen to enter and aerobic organisms can establish, because no brew is ever sterile.

What I have been saying in this thread is not my opinion, but well established science over many years.

Brewing is not about absolutes but managing risk. You want to establish procedures that will have the lowest risk of problems. Using gladwrap doesn't guarantee infection, but it raises the risk much higher.


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## CamM (13/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> <snip>...Using gladwrap doesn't guarantee infection, but *in my opinion* it raises the risk much higher.


fixed that for you.


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## Greg.L (13/9/13)

CamM said:


> fixed that for you.


So the oxygen permeability of gladwrap is a matter of opinion?


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## adryargument (13/9/13)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> I've got to absolutely agree with JDW81 on this as while yes the topic is causes of infection, putting aside procedure and sanitation methods, it is plain wrong to state that glad wrap poses any greater a risk than a plastic lid (with or without an airlock), all the science and partial pressure theories can attempt to say oxygen is going to get in and mix with the CO2 and make contact with the brew, but empirical evidence suggests this is not the case as suggested by countless brewers who choose to use glad wrap.
> 
> Whichever method you are going to use, ensure the lid, thread, o-ring seals and the fermenter itself are adequately sterilised and sanitised so that you find yourself sitting in the extremely unlikely risk category for an infection from oxygen/airborne bacteria.


While you may say that from a "50% of the people dont have a problem with using gladwrap so it cant possibly be true" high horse, there seems to be a an even 50% thinking your being a ******* twat. Not being rude. But your obviously not listening to the other 50% who do have issues or done enough research.

Ever looked at the Mad Fermentationist blog?
He recommends using glass carboys to store lambics as opposed to plastic carboys, because the airsealed lid *WILL* allow oxygen to permeate.
Now thats over 8-12 months.

Considering that gladwrap is AT MOST 1/20th as thick as plastic carboys. You do the math.

*Oxygen does not pose a threat to beer fermentation if it is 100% sterile of oxygen eating bugs -* *It just might make it taste a bit shitter.*

But to those of us that live in a shitty environment, its technically impossible to get 100%. As filling the fermenter alone introduces a few spores. These are suppressed until the yeast stops kicking, and oxygen replaces the CO2.
How do i know this? In my old home, accustomed to 4-5 week infected beers, i simply started adding dextrose.malt syrup to the fermenters while i went on holiday. This ended up giving me a few more days/weeks of CO2 saturation to starve off the bugs. The ones i didnt add this to had space balls growing the size of tennis balls.


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## bum (13/9/13)

Getting infections vs not getting infections.

Great thread. A+, guys.


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## Greg.L (13/9/13)

bum said:


> Getting infections vs not getting infections.
> 
> Great thread. A+, guys.


Oh god, don't tell me this is going to turn into one of those endless threads where instead of discussing the issue, people complain about the thread.


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## bum (13/9/13)

Nah. I'm sure it'll continue being one of those endless threads where no-one actually reads what the other side is saying nor thinks about what they are saying and just keeps saying the same shit over and over again.

[EDIT: typo]


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## Greg.L (13/9/13)

If you don't like a thread the solution is easy - avoid it.


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## manticle (13/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> I decided to list all the bad advice in this thread. Very negative I know, bad karma:
> 
> Use Gladwrap to seal your fermenter.
> 
> ...



Glad wrap works and works well during active fermentation. If you have any intention of conditioning your beer for any length of time post ferment then I agree you should either use a lid or even better - fill a cube or demijohn and keep it as airtight as possible. Lids and airlocks also work. There are pros and cons to both.

Finding or locating the possible point/points of infection (say a dirty tap) is not bad advice.

Infections can take hold in particular pieces of equipment like scratched plastic fermenters or some types of hoses. Ditching those in favour of new ones helps eliminate that source, particularly if you have had a spate of infections which can be very disheartening. Yes you can clean it/sanitise it but the ******* things cost less than a batch of ingredients.

People suggest new environments as a way of eliminating variables for people who have a constant run of them - not one single one. You've obviously never been in that boat or you wouldn't be so dismissive of the idea. If you have a constant run (and people do - many who have never used glad wrap in their lives) you might want to work out if it is the environment or your process and brewing/fermenting elsewhere can help.

I'll leave the open fermentation thing alone. I know some commercials do but what commercials do and what I do at home is very different. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable trying.

Agree with the last - oxygen at beginning of ferment is totally different to too much oxygen present during and after.

I ferment mostly in cubes but I do still occasionally ferment in a plastic barrel with several layers of glad - mostly because my lids are manky after years of disuse and I wouldn't risk them. If lagering or even cold conditioning for more than 3 days I will transfer the finished beer to a cube and tighten the lid.

Glad wrap is not perfect but it is not the demon you make it out to be. Airlocks are not perfect either - one more thing to clean/sanitise, one more trap for noobs to wonder why it isn't glooping or assume that when it stops, the beer is ready. Have to know and use each one correctly and you will probably be fine.


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## bum (13/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> If you don't like a thread the solution is easy - avoid it.


I gave the thread an A+.

Review your reply to my initial post.


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## petesbrew (13/9/13)

Well, I've stopped using the garden hose to fill my HLT. I definitely think that has helped.


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## verysupple (13/9/13)

Greg.L said:


> many volumes of co2 are produced and the headspace of the fermenter is purged of oxygen.


That is so not true. You think that after the bulk of fermentation has happened that there is no O2 in the head space? Remember what you were saying about partial pressures and stuff? Well, that discussion lead me to believe you actually knew about gas dynamics/statistical mechanics. I guess I was wrong. 




Greg.L said:


> What I have been saying in this thread is not my opinion, but well established science over many years.


To reappropriate a common saying, 'references, or it didn't happen'.


Now, just to be clear, I do agree that minimising exposure to O2 after fermentation is a good idea, and for many reasons. However, it's the stuff about O2 being the cause of infections that I disagree with. So although it's a little "black and white", I agree with adryargument, 



adryargument said:


> *Oxygen does not pose a threat to beer fermentation if it is 100% sterile of oxygen eating bugs -* *It just might make it taste a bit shitter.*



EDIT: typo


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## Greg.L (14/9/13)

I never said there was no oxygen in the headspace. I have never looked into what amount of o2 might remain after a typical fermentation but you can treat it as zero. In the beer the yeast consume oxygen which is very useful for mopping up some of the o2 that dissolves. This is why spoilage organisms live on the surface - there is o2 in the headspace which is necessary for things like acetobacter and film yeast, but very little in the liquid, though if a lot of o2 gets in it will be more than the yeast can consume and acetobacter can live in the beer.

The notion that you can have a sterile fermentation in normal clean brewery conditions is damaging. No brewery or winery is trying to create a sterile environment - this isn't brain surgery. There will always be some small contamination by bugs but that isn't important if you manage your risks properly. In winemaking, the grapes come in from the vineyard covered in birdshit, bugs, dirt and god-knows-what else. It isn't washed, just crushed and pressed. I know brewing is different but it is still fermenting. It isn't necessary or possible to keep things sterile, just clean.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/9/13)

Having a sterile environment is not the aim otherwise the yeast wouldn't live, a sanitary environment is the aim when making beer which all of us strive for.
Does it matter if some of us prefer plastic wrap or conventional air locks both seem to work, I have never used plastic wrap myself but I am not going to pooh-pooh all of those who do, every one will do what they are comfortable with and any one who is new to brewing will be able to read this thread see the arguments for and against and make up there own minds.
As for cubing beer as far as I am concerned this is a plus in beer making, one doesn't have to drag out heat exchangers and hoses it is all extra work, another plus is if anything goes wrong such as rehydrating your yeast or dropping it, spilling it it doesn't matter if the wort is cubed.Just makes brew day less stressful and a cube is so easy to clean.

Open fermentation is generally used in the north of England because the yeast strain used in the north is not as active and needs constant stirring but it apparently produces more CO2 and makes a nice beer.


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## verysupple (14/9/13)

Greg.L, I think we're getting closer to the same page here.

Although I disagree with this:


Greg.L said:


> I have never looked into what amount of o2 might remain after a typical fermentation but *you can treat it as zero*.



When I said I agreed with adryargument although it was a bit "black and white", I meant that minimising the amount of spoilage organisms right from the start has got to at least be as important as not letting in O2 after the bulk of fermentation has happened. So yes, I completely agree with the last half of your post:


Greg.L said:


> The notion that you can have a sterile fermentation in normal clean brewery conditions is damaging. No brewery or winery is trying to create a sterile environment - this isn't brain surgery. There will always be some small contamination by bugs but that isn't important if you manage your risks properly. In winemaking, the grapes come in from the vineyard covered in birdshit, bugs, dirt and god-knows-what else. It isn't washed, just crushed and pressed. I know brewing is different but it is still fermenting. It isn't necessary or possible to keep things sterile, just clean.


In the end, I think we actually agree on the physical and biological principles at work, we just disagree how much of an effect each has. I just don't want noobs to think they can get away with not cleaning and sanitising their FVs properly so long as they don't let any O2 in. Surely you agree with that?


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## Greg.L (14/9/13)

Of course everything needs to be cleaned. I have said that all along.


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## Nort (27/9/13)

Hi Guys.
Today I just put down my 20th Brew. Have only been doing it for 4-5 weeks, but have four fermenters. Two "traditional" Copper Tun Kits and two "new style" Cooper Kits. The brews I have been doing are Coopers Lager and Draught, but mainly Tooheys Draught with a couple of Lagers. My first two that came with the Kits were Mangrove Jack Gold. So far I have not had a bad one, and have tasted 11 of them, all being quite nice. But the other day I bought a Coopers Real Ale, put it down in one of the Coopers Kits (I go over board with sanitizing). Have taken SG readings and they are OG 1037 FG 1005 for two days running. Unfortunately it has a smell like green apples. I have read on this Forum about it, but don't fully understand. Is this an infection, or does it need to be left longer? Anyone can supply some advice. Thanks in advance. Cheers


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## Donske (27/9/13)

Nort said:


> Hi Guys.
> Today I just put down my 20th Brew. Have only been doing it for 4-5 weeks, but have four fermenters. Two "traditional" Copper Tun Kits and two "new style" Cooper Kits. The brews I have been doing are Coopers Lager and Draught, but mainly Tooheys Draught with a couple of Lagers. My first two that came with the Kits were Mangrove Jack Gold. So far I have not had a bad one, and have tasted 11 of them, all being quite nice. But the other day I bought a Coopers Real Ale, put it down in one of the Coopers Kits (I go over board with sanitizing). Have taken SG readings and they are OG 1037 FG 1005 for two days running. Unfortunately it has a smell like green apples. I have read on this Forum about it, but don't fully understand. Is this an infection, or does it need to be left longer? Anyone can supply some advice. Thanks in advance. Cheers


Mate, that smell is _Acetaldehyde_, I'm guessing due to not controlling your ferment temps with these hot as hell days lately, the only thing I can suggest is to leave the brew on the yeast for a few weeks to see if it cleans up the green apple but it may be going down the drain.

If you do have temp control it's more than likely due to under pitching your yeast.


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## Screwtop (27/9/13)

Donske said:


> Mate, that smell is _Acetaldehyde_, I'm guessing due to not controlling your ferment temps with these hot as hell days lately, the only thing I can suggest is to leave the brew on the yeast for a few weeks to see if it cleans up the green apple but it may be going down the drain.
> 
> If you do have temp control it's more than likely due to under pitching your yeast.



Or google a reputable source such as Charles Bamforth for info re avoiding the problem.

Screwy


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## Nort (28/9/13)

Thanks for that Guys. I'll keep an eye on it, and see how it goes. Think I'll stick with the ones I know. Cheers


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## Adr_0 (28/9/13)

GalBrew said:


> I think there are also a lot of people out there abusing the whole "no-chill" concept as they don't understand the theory behind it and wondering why their cubes are expanding.


Isn't that the obvious botulism bacteria kicking in?


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## nala (28/9/13)

Rocker1986 said:


> I must agree with Camo there. How are you meant to eliminate or fix the issue causing an infection if you don't bother trying to find out what the cause is?
> 
> It's not just air getting in that can cause infections. It could also be dirty taps, improperly cleaned/sanitized fermenters, or anything else that comes in contact with the brew.


I have a simple but effective cleaning and sterilising regime.
I have made up the following components from utilitarian items from either Bunnins or Reject Shop.
The system uses Napisan cleaner 1 Table spoon in 6litres of warm water for cleaning and a Mixture of 10 mls of white vinegar and 10 mls of bleach in 6 litres of water for sterilising obviously not together but as 2 seperate stages.
I attach pictures of what I have built and should be self explanitary.
The cleaning system uses a small fountain pump to which I attached a base...plastic chopping board from Reject shop, the diameter is the diameter of the bucket base, bucket from Bunnings.
The extension tube attached to the pump is a length of electricians plastic conduit into the end of which I placed a nozzle to reduce the diameter of the extension tube so as to get a good forced spray.
The support ring which is used to sit a keg on...plastic chopping board drilled to take support legs... plastic tube from Bunnings 
plus straight joiners also from Bunnings.

The pictures are hopefully self explanitary.....














I do not use Bleach and Vinegar to sterilise my kegs I use the Keg & Line steriliser.


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## Bridges (28/9/13)

I have never had an infection. (touch wood) I read this whole thread looking for tips to tighten up my process. Doesn't seem to be about infections as much as techniques of fermenting. I used to use the lid and airlock on my fermenter but had to ditch them to fit into the bar fridge I use for temp control during ferment. I now use glad wrap exclusively. My beers are better than they have ever been but now I can't say whether its the temp control or the gladwrap. (or all grain vs. Kits and bits) Moral of the story is each to their own. You work within the constraints of your gear and results you are getting dictate changes to your process. I'm not about to slag off ANY home or commercial process that results in good beer.


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## Pickaxe (29/9/13)

Only infections I've had are bottle born, and from not cleaning my bottles well enough. Has less than 1% in 30+ brews. I've had the same basic sanitizing regime since day one, I clean fermenters immediately, soak with sanitizer after brew and before brew if it's beena while. I soak my bottles overnight, and everything else - mash paddle, chic etc. My plastic brew trestle gets a quick clean with napisan brew day morning.
If in doubt, I sanitise or discard.

I don't like the sound of those micro flora manticle talks about, but yeah, like a commercial kitchen, start stay and end clean, no problems.


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## Nort (10/10/13)

Well Guys, my problem turned out to be good news. The Green Apple smell I was concerned about eventually dissipated to virtually nothing, so I decided to bottle. Did a couple of Stubbies so I could test them at intervals to see how it was going. We tried one, and to my pleasant surprise (and my Wife's) it tasted really good. Now to leave it to get ready to drink.
Thanks for the help.
Cheers


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## slcmorro (10/10/13)

I read the title of this, and purely the title only and thought 'Where was this thread back when I was 18'? Woulda saved a lot of trips to the local Health Centre


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