# Sterilizing



## BrisBrew (15/7/18)

Just wondering, can i use chlorine watered down instead of home brew sterilizing bottles?

I know a few guys that use chlorine because its much cheaper and rinse them off after. Couldnt notice it when i drank their beer.

Is chlorine alright?


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## brewgasm (15/7/18)

BrisBrew said:


> Just wondering, can i use chlorine watered down instead of home brew sterilizing bottles?
> 
> I know a few guys that use chlorine because its much cheaper and rinse them off after. Couldnt notice it when i drank their beer.
> 
> Is chlorine alright?


I imagine you can but its pretty nasty stuff and takes alot to rinse out. Personally I wouldn't use it and it's not that versatile in the brewery. Since most of what we do as homebrewers is clean and sanitise I wouldn't want to cheap out when the mainstays are not terribly expensive to begin with. Sodium percabonate to wash /sanitise $6-$10 /kilo Phosphoric acid, about $9 worth will last years.


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## BrisBrew (15/7/18)

brewgasm said:


> I imagine you can but its pretty nasty stuff and takes alot to rinse out. Personally I wouldn't use it and it's not that versatile in the brewery. Since most of what we do as homebrewers is clean and sanitise I wouldn't want to cheap out when the mainstays are not terribly expensive to begin with. Sodium percabonate to wash /sanitise $6-$10 /kilo Phosphoric acid, about $9 worth will last years.


Sodium percabonate, did a small google on it...

found this
https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/oxyper-5kg-sodium-percarbonate

Is it a cleaner or sanitiser?

Does it come in a powder form and you mix it in water to use or liquid concentrate? looks promising but im a newb to this. How do i use it?

I currently use the link below
https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/sanitize-250ml

it says dilute 30ml to 1L of water. is it bad to do say 60ml to 1L of water or 90ml to 1L of water? is too much not good? i sometimes do 60 or 90ml per L so wondering if this is over kill or bad.


Thanks


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## brewgasm (16/7/18)

BrisBrew said:


> Sodium percabonate, did a small google on it...
> 
> found this
> https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/oxyper-5kg-sodium-percarbonate
> ...


It's Both Cleaner and sanitiser (after a 10 minute soak) but you have to rinse. it may not be necessary but it is best practice to sanitise with a no rinse sanitiser such as phosphoric acid, Iodophor, stellarSan /starsan, hydrogen peroxide (just double check that peroxide is no rinse, I'm not sure, I do have a bottle but its not my favourite so I don't use it) also that's a pretty good price!


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## brewgasm (16/7/18)

BrisBrew said:


> I currently use the link below
> https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/sanitize-250ml
> 
> it says dilute 30ml to 1L of water. is it bad to do say 60ml to 1L of water or 90ml to 1L of water? is too much not good? i sometimes do 60 or 90ml per L so wondering if this is over kill or bad.
> ...



I Would Stick to the recommend dilution. Other sanitisers will give you more value for money.

Phosphoric acid 96% 1ml to 2000ml water
Iodophor 1ml to 1000ml water

Both much cheaper as you can get 500ml for less than 10 dollars. Say 500 ml of phosphoric acid cost you $8 and makes 500 litres of solution.


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## brewgasm (16/7/18)

Sodium percabonate comes in powder form and is generally diluted in water 1-2 tsp/l


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## RobinW (16/7/18)

Whats wrong with starsan?
I mix 1 fl ounce with 20L of RO or Distilled water in a cube and it keeps for ages.
Mix that with tap water and it goes cloudy and becomes useless pretty quick.
I keep some in a spray bottle to sterilise flasks etc when growing yeast. It's a steriliser not a cleaner.
Sodium Perc is a great cleaner but I find it needs hot water to perform and needs to act overnight to work at it's best.
I put some in my kegs with a jug of boiling water to clean the bottoms out.


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## MHB (17/7/18)

1 fl oz is about 30 mL
Starsan contains Phosphoric acid and a surfactant/detergent, just Phosphoric on its own wont be quite the same.

Another good spot steriliser is 70% alcohol (water and ethanol, methylated spirits...) works really as a pickup and spray.
Mark


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## Lucas2411 (17/7/18)

I personally use chlorine bleach on many surfaces around the brewery (avoid leaving it on anything metallic, particularly stainless steel for longer than a few minutes) but those surfaces never come into direct contact with beer or yeast.

I use Di-San from Aldi as a sodium percarbonate cleaner. It's 3 bucks a kilo and is about ~33% sodium perc. Clean, rinse well and then sanitise with Starsan or Iodophor.


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## Rocker1986 (18/7/18)

Get on a sodium percarbonate bulk buy next time one happens. 25kg bag of sodium percarbonate (without the other shit) for $42 is way better value than buying nappy soakers or buying it from brew shops. It's a piece of piss to use it, there's no real optimum rate as far as I can tell like there is with acid sanitisers, just use what looks about right. There's no point using a shitload but also no point using **** all either. When I soak my fermenter I fill the whole thing up with hot tap water and dump in 4 scoops (the laundry powder things) of percarbonate, then rinse out the next day, spray with Starsan and fill with the next batch. I don't know what the grams per litre rate is for that but it works.

Those acid sanitisers should be diluted at the proper rate otherwise they become ineffective. So using more isn't good.


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## brewgasm (18/7/18)

RobinW said:


> Whats wrong with starsan?
> I mix 1 fl ounce with 20L of RO or Distilled water in a cube and it keeps for ages.
> Mix that with tap water and it goes cloudy and becomes useless pretty quick.
> I keep some in a spray bottle to sterilise flasks etc when growing yeast. It's a steriliser not a cleaner.
> ...


I could be wrong but doesn't sodium percabonate break down after 4 hours? I'm curious to know if that applies to sodium metasilicate and sodium metabisulfite as I use them also.


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## RobinW (18/7/18)

No idea but I know it breaks down to water and oxygen so ends up being harmless.
I've been circulating it hot today through my boiler, pump and plate chiller.
Lots of brown water and hop residue are coming out of the gear.


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## golfandbrew (18/7/18)

No need to over think this process. 

Use sodium percarbonate, oxy per, oxy clean, PBW etc to clean your equipment. Don't bother with the diluted stuff from the supermarkets. You're not saving any money after they cut it with perfumes and whatever else. If you can get in on bulk buy like Rocker says above, even better.

To sanitize use a phosphoric based sanitizer like Star San, Stellar San, Quick San, Sani Clean etc. +1 to using with RO or Distilled water. It really does last much longer this way. If you want to change it up then use Iodaphor or something similar. 

Point being use proven products that are made for the brewing industry or similarly the dairy industry.

Cheers


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## BrisBrew (19/7/18)

thanks guys, so this link below what im after? And is star san rinse free?

Star San


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## Rocker1986 (19/7/18)

That's the stuff for sanitising. It is no-rinse so you just spray it on and leave it for a minute and you're good to go. Obviously the equipment needs to be clean first though. 

You'll never get 100% sterilisation in a home brew scenario anyway, the best we can do is eliminate as many unwanted bugs as possible through good cleaning and sanitising practices.


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## citizensnips (20/7/18)

The other reason to stay away from chlorine in your brew is due to chlorophenols. This is a common off flavour created from an interaction between yeast and chlorine. Believe me when you smell or taste this you won’t be wanting any chlorine near your beer again. To me it smells and tastes like a Clarke Rubber store. That potent synthetic rubber smell. Other people commonly get bandaid, medicine, acetone. It’s no good


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## KegLand-com-au (20/7/18)

You can get Star San if you want but it's expensive because it's imported from America. We sell 500ml bottles of the same formulation on our website here:
https://www.kegland.com.au/phosphoric-acid-blend-sanitiser-500ml-starsan.html


If you want a real bargain we have a few sold even cheaper here:
https://www.kegland.com.au/stellars...sed-similar-to-starsan-secons-containers.html


I would agree with the other comments here. Do NOT use any chlorine based chemicals as the taste threshold is so incredibly low. So even if you get only get a few parts per billion it starts to become noticeable in your beverage. The issue is because you have to wash the chlorine out so thoroughly you end up significantly increasing the chance of introducing more microbes.


Some people use peroxide, sodium percarbonate or other types of "oxy/oxygen based" cleaners as a non-rinse sanitiser but we would not recommend this either. Mainly for these reasons:

1. You really need a surfactant if you are using a non-rinse sanitiser and sodium percarbonate on it's own will not have this.
2. Sodium percarbonate can affect the flavour of the final beer if the peroxide comes in contact with wort. 

On the other hand the ingredients in Stellarsan are all edible, they can be metabolised by yeast and also they have very high taste threshold so even if you accidentally get some in the finished beer it's no big deal.

There are some products that claim to be "single step" sanitisers and cleaners but we have never seen anything anywhere which does a good job of both well so unfortunately this type of thing is too good to be true. You have sanitisers, and you have cleaners. If you really want to do a good job of both you need two products.

We should also say we have our own Powdered Brewing Wash formulation that is coming out next month too. This will be $9.95 per 1kg container so it will be great value and works as well as other Powdered Brewery washes that are double the price.


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## KegLand-com-au (20/7/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Get on a sodium percarbonate bulk buy next time one happens. 25kg bag of sodium percarbonate (without the other shit) for $42 is way better value than buying nappy soakers or buying it from brew shops. It's a piece of piss to use it, there's no real optimum rate as far as I can tell like there is with acid sanitisers, just use what looks about right. There's no point using a shitload but also no point using **** all either. When I soak my fermenter I fill the whole thing up with hot tap water and dump in 4 scoops (the laundry powder things) of percarbonate, then rinse out the next day, spray with Starsan and fill with the next batch. I don't know what the grams per litre rate is for that but it works.
> 
> Those acid sanitisers should be diluted at the proper rate otherwise they become ineffective. So using more isn't good.



Sodium percarbonate is great at removing protein based soiling and also tannin (which is why it's so great at removing red wine from clothing like the nappy san adds on TV). With that said sodium percarbonate is no good at:
1. Removing oils (hop oils or any other oils), so ideally you want surfactnats to help with this
2. Its not particularly good if you have hard water. so you really need softening agents to help your cleaner do it's job
3. It's not good at removing beer stone on it's own

So yes sodium percarbonate will do a lot of the heavy lifting and it's cheap when you purchase it on it's own. With that said if you only use this product you will be leaving some of the soiling behind as it cant remove everything on it's own. So typically if you continue to use sodium percarbonate over and over again you will start to notice your fermenters might start getting a small build up of the other soiling that it's not effective against. I wish it was possible to make a fantastic cleaning product which could be used on a wide range of soiling and only contained one ingredient but the reality is a good cleaner will have at least a few ingredients as there are several different reactions that need to take place in order for a good cleaner to work well. If you look at PBW it contains 7 ingredients in total. We are also making our own powdered brewery wash that will also contain 7 ingredients too. We will stock straight sodium percarbonate as well in 1kg tubs very soon as well but we will push customers to get the full formulation as it simply works better.


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## KegLand-com-au (20/7/18)

MHB said:


> 1 fl oz is about 30 mL
> Starsan contains Phosphoric acid and a surfactant/detergent, just Phosphoric on its own wont be quite the same.
> 
> Another good spot steriliser is 70% alcohol (water and ethanol, methylated spirits...) works really as a pickup and spray.
> Mark



Would totally agree with this. Ethanol spray is awesome. Also great for filling up your airlock in the fermenter too.
https://www.kegland.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=ethanol


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## fungrel (20/7/18)

KegLand-com-au said:


> Would totally agree with this. Ethanol spray is awesome. Also great for filling up your airlock in the fermenter too.
> https://www.kegland.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=ethanol


Feels like you spruik your wares at every opportunity, could've sworn that this was against forum rules...


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## Thomas Wood (20/7/18)

fungrel said:


> Feels like you spruik your wares at every opportunity, could've sworn that this was against forum rules...


I'm not sure about forum rules, but I don't have a problem with it when directly above they have 2 comments, each with 300+ words in them, giving some good information and advice.


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## MHB (20/7/18)

brewgasm said:


> I could be wrong but doesn't sodium percabonate break down after 4 hours? I'm curious to know if that applies to sodium metasilicate and sodium metabisulfite as I use them also.


Sodium Percarbonate will disassociate (slightly more accurate than "break down ") into Peroxide H2O2 (that's the steriliser) and Sodium Carbonate (its the cleaner, AKA Washing Soda). The rate it happens, how effective it is and the amount of time the Peroxide is available is largely temperature dependant, as with most chemical reactions the hotter the faster.
Sodium Metasilicate helps Percarbonate work better, its helps remove soil and acts as a wetting agent. One other effect is it acts to protect metals, particularly Copper, Brass and Aluminum, from the effects of strong alkaline cleaners, worth thinking about if you are using an Al pot or have brass fittings in your system. Metasilicate is a common admixture in "Brewery Cleaners" PPW, BBW...
The cleaning action is still going on while there is Sodium Carbonate available (yonks) the peroxide is pretty unstable so yes you would be brave to assume it was an effective steriliser for long (personally I wouldn't think so after half an hour).
If I were using Perk as a soak clean (which I do) I would use a finishing steriliser. I'm a lot more careful what I regard as a no rinse sanatiser so properly diluted pure Phosphoric, Peroxide, Ethanol sure, stuff with detergent and halogens (F, Cl, Br, I) no way so a no to StarSan and Iodophor.
Mark


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## RobinW (20/7/18)

MHB said:


> so a no to StarSan and Iodophor.
> Mark


Have I read this wrong. Your saying you wouldn't use starsan as a sanitizer ?


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## MHB (20/7/18)

As a "NO Rinse" wouldn't even think of it, no doubt its effective enough as a sanitiser (so are lots of things) but there is no beneficial amount of low-grade industrial detergent I want to add to my beer, so would I treat it as no rinse - no way!
Mark


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## KegLand-com-au (14/9/18)

Hey guys. This is a topic that we just covered on our video here:



Now clearly we are biased and we are selling these products. With that said we are just about to do a 2 for 1 deal on a couple cleaners and sanitisers so if you were to like our Facebook page you would be able to see this discount code when it comes available in a couple weeks.

Let us know what you think of the video and if we have accidentally left anything out.  We tried to cover as much as possible but the video was already getting a bit too long.


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## wide eyed and legless (15/9/18)

Just goes to show how funny life is, we can walk into Bunnings or a garden centre to get some pesticide and carefully read the active ingredients to much chemical base and its put back on the shelf.
Yet come across a no rinse steriliser which has a pesticide (Dodecylbenzene) as an active ingredient, not only is it a pesticide but is also linked to being carcinogenic and it is used as a no rinse sanitiser.
Can't beat good old peracetic acid only 1ml per litre and the best bit is, after an hour it has gone without a trace.


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## Courtney Scott (15/9/18)

Hey Fellas,
Not sure if it's been mentioned but I just use Milton Tablets, Same as they use for Baby Bottles. 2 tablets per 4 litres and is no rinse Sanitizer I figure if they can use it for babies right from the start must be good enough for my beer, and touch wood no infections to date.

regards,
Norto.


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## Beir Hearder (16/9/18)

fungrel said:


> Feels like you spruik your wares at every opportunity, could've sworn that this was against forum rules...


You noticed that too


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## DU99 (16/9/18)

Milton i used when first did bottles,gets a bit expensive and solution only good for 24 hours..where starsan and iodophor sanitizer you could use again and the cost was very small


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## Courtney Scott (17/9/18)

DU99 said:


> Milton i used when first did bottles,gets a bit expensive and solution only good for 24 hours..where starsan and iodophor sanitizer you could use again and the cost was very small


Did you use the tablets or the bottle of solution?





Only uses 2 tablets for 4 Litres, I have always used it, how does it compare to something like Starsan for price?


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## Rocker1986 (17/9/18)

I paid $10 or $15 for a 125mL bottle of Starsan 6 years ago and still have just under half of it left.


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## KegLand-com-au (17/9/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Just goes to show how funny life is, we can walk into Bunnings or a garden centre to get some pesticide and carefully read the active ingredients to much chemical base and its put back on the shelf.
> Yet come across a no rinse steriliser which has a pesticide (Dodecylbenzene) as an active ingredient, not only is it a pesticide but is also linked to being carcinogenic and it is used as a no rinse sanitiser.
> Can't beat good old peracetic acid only 1ml per litre and the best bit is, after an hour it has gone without a trace.



Can you please let us know where you get the information that the LABS acid is carcinogenic? Its approved by the FDA and also used in a wide range range of cleaning products that you find at the supermarket. Labs acid is also used by Five Star Chemicals in the StarSan product which is the most used sanitiser in America. Of you have determined that LABS acid is carcinogenic I would also assume you have some peer reviewed papers on this as well you can point us in the direction of?

I should also say that dodecylbenzene is a precursor to many different chemical compounds including the LABS acid that is found in both Star San and our sanitiser. Perhaps you are getting confused with other compounds that also use dodecylbenzene as an element in those products as it's a widely used in literally thousands of products and many that you would already have around the house.


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## KegLand-com-au (17/9/18)

Courtney Scott said:


> Did you use the tablets or the bottle of solution?
> View attachment 113575
> 
> Only uses 2 tablets for 4 Litres, I have always used it, how does it compare to something like Starsan for price?



I could be wrong but to our understanding Milton Tablets use chlorine as the killing agent. So for the same reasons we do not recommend the use of bleach we would also not recommend the use of Milton Tablets. The taste threshold for Chlorine is so very low that even small concentrations can be noticeable in the finished beer.

Many brewers go to extreme efforts to remove very small concentrations of chlorine from the water prior to use it for brewing for the same reason. To go to this type of effort then to add chlorine into the fermenter as a non rinse sanitiser would be a bad idea in our opinion.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (17/9/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Just goes to show how funny life is, we can walk into Bunnings or a garden centre to get some pesticide and carefully read the active ingredients to much chemical base and its put back on the shelf.
> Yet come across a no rinse steriliser which has a pesticide (Dodecylbenzene) as an active ingredient, not only is it a pesticide but is also linked to being carcinogenic and it is used as a no rinse sanitiser.
> Can't beat good old peracetic acid only 1ml per litre and the best bit is, after an hour it has gone without a trace.




Are you peddling myths again? A quick Google of said 'pesticide' reveals its not a pesticide but a detergent base. I have heard that some pesticides have detergent in them so they stick to waxy leaves. I've added dish washing liquid to achieve this.

Like KL have asked, post the peer reviewed scientific papers that back up your post, I'm sure the FDA in America would love to see it.


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## pnorkle (17/9/18)

Crickets_chirping.mp3


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## wide eyed and legless (17/9/18)

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Are you peddling myths again? A quick Google of said 'pesticide' reveals its not a pesticide but a detergent base. I have heard that some pesticides have detergent in them so they stick to waxy leaves. I've added dish washing liquid to achieve this.
> 
> Like KL have asked, post the peer reviewed scientific papers that back up your post, I'm sure the FDA in America would love to see it.


If it is a biocide it has the potential to be a pesticide, which it is, and it is used in plenty of household detergents but it is not mixed with beer and ingested, it has been LINKED to gastric cancer but as with most links they have to be proved check out what the maximum dilution rate is, and how many brewers are towing the line on the dilution rate? Proxitane is the Pro brewers go to biocide and I am all in favour of that. If you think I am having a crack at KL well KK has a similar product, I just don't like the idea of ingesting something that has not been proven either way to be or not be a carcinogen.
At the end of the day we are making a class A carcinogen, just prevents the double whammy keeping away from products produced from benzine.


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## EmptyB (17/9/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you think I am having a crack at KL well KK has a similar product


I guess it's just a coincidence that you only cared to share this information immediately following KegLand's response to the thread then?


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## wide eyed and legless (17/9/18)

EmptyB said:


> I guess it's just a coincidence that you only cared to share this information immediately following KegLand's response to the thread then?


Not at all, I don't care what decision others make just putting a point of view.


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## Courtney Scott (18/9/18)

KegLand-com-au said:


> I could be wrong but to our understanding Milton Tablets use chlorine as the killing agent. So for the same reasons we do not recommend the use of bleach we would also not recommend the use of Milton Tablets. The taste threshold for Chlorine is so very low that even small concentrations can be noticeable in the finished beer.
> 
> Many brewers go to extreme efforts to remove very small concentrations of chlorine from the water prior to use it for brewing for the same reason. To go to this type of effort then to add chlorine into the fermenter as a non rinse sanitiser would be a bad idea in our opinion.


Yeah... Can't say that I have ever tasted it in the finished product but has worked for me for the last 4 years so I shan't be changing anytime soon. Although maybe I should use starsan at least once and see if there is a difference.


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## Rocker1986 (18/9/18)

If you allow the stuff to dry completely before putting wort or beer in it, the chlorine probably disappears anyway. That said, I prefer not using chlorine based things unless I absolutely have to.


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## Courtney Scott (18/9/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> If you allow the stuff to dry completely before putting wort or beer in it, the chlorine probably disappears anyway. That said, I prefer not using chlorine based things unless I absolutely have to.


Yeah sounds fair.... when i use all the tablets I have I'll give the Starsan a go but I really can't taste anything at the moment and I do usually leave it to dry a bit before I fill the keg or fermenter. Usually you can smell the Chlorine in our tap water but when i have finished sanitizing my gear you can't really smell any chlorine so probably not as bad as if I used tap water to wash it out.





Does have some amount of Chlorine by the looks.


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## 5teve (18/9/18)

Starsan, with maybe a boiling/boiled water rinse depending how time poor I am, is how I roll - not that I really bottle much anymore. Many years ago before I bought my first seemingly never-ending bottomless bottle of Starsan, I used to just do the bleach and multiple rinse thing but was a lot more effort to get rid of the chlorine wiff, and I don't rate it that much cheaper for bottling given the extra effort involved, and how much shorter even unmixed bleach shelf life is than starsan anyway. Plus chlorine seems well overkill for bottles given finished beer is more robust than fresh sugary virginal wort.

However I still have a place for NaOCl occasionally. A few years ago I had an issue with over attentuation in a few successive batches that I put down to a wild yeast infection of my plastic fermenter that Starsan didn't seem to shake so I went full thermonuclear on it and have now made it a more or less yearly treatment so as to rotate/mix up sanitisation and give me the warm and fuzzies.

So maybe once a year I get medieval and first hyperchlorinate my fermenter with bleach to disinfect, then rinse a few times with boiling water and hit it with Campden tablets to help dechlorinate the fermenter and get rid of any remaining chlorine odour (by my thinking at least) and give an additional sanitising, then store it away dry. Then before I use it again next give it the usual Starsan-ification™ like usual. Some more learned people may validly say it's overkill / pointless / other justifiable negative reasons, I say has been working for me with nill infections since and nill perceived additional chlorophenols.


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## altone (18/9/18)

5teve said:


> Starsan, with maybe a boiling/boiled water rinse depending how time poor I am, is how I roll - not that I really bottle much anymore.
> ...
> So maybe once a year I get medieval and first hyperchlorinate my fermenter with bleach to disinfect, then rinse a few times with boiling water and hit it with Campden tablets to help dechlorinate the fermenter and get rid of any remaining chlorine odour (by my thinking at least) and give an additional sanitising, then store it away dry. Then before I use it again next give it the usual Starsan-ification™ like usual. Some more learned people may validly say it's overkill / pointless / other justifiable negative reasons, I say has been working for me with nill infections since and nill perceived additional chlorophenols.



I actually very much like the idea.
A massive spring clean of all your gear including pulling all the stuff apart you (I) don't usually bother with, use the strongest appropriate cleaning solution
and then Chlorinate the hell out of it!

Last time I deep cleaned the laundry (where yeast propagation happens for me) my wife couldn't understand why I was spraying bleach on the ceiling and walls.
So I'll take your possibly overkill route and use it.


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## wide eyed and legless (19/9/18)

I think it much safer to use what the breweries use (also the dairy industry) PAA.
From what I have read in EU removing of the cleaning disinfection agents is mandatory except if the substance is harmless which PAA is, dodecylbenzine sulphonic acid is not permitted to be commercially used in food analogs or additives.DIN 10516
In saying that I do use it as a spray for detecting any leaks in my co2 collections


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## Rocker1986 (19/9/18)

Where does one get this paa?

Sent from my Agora 4G+ using Aussie Home Brewer mobile app


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## wide eyed and legless (19/9/18)

Have a look for per acetic acid or proxitane sanitiser close to where you are.


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## MHB (19/9/18)

A quick google for the MSDS is often a fast way to learn what is in stuff
Milton tablets MSDS (snip)




Shure it makes Chlorine as the active ingredient, but it leaves a lot of other stuff behind.
Never going to be my go to steriliser.
Mark


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## altone (19/9/18)

Snippet from the PAA MSDS

2.1 Classification of the substance or mixture Work Health and Safety Regulation 2011 - Flammable liquids , Category 4 H227: Combustible liquid. - Oxidizing liquids , Category 2 H272: May intensify fire; oxidiser. - Corrosive to metals , Category 1 H290: May be corrosive to metals. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H302: Harmful if swallowed. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H332: Harmful if inhaled. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H312: Harmful in contact with skin. - Skin corrosion , Category 1A H314: Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. - Serious eye damage , Category 1 H318: Causes serious eye damage. - Specific target organ toxicity - single exposure, Category 3 H335: May cause respiratory irritation. (Respiratory system),

I'm sure it does a good job, but looks like nasty stuff.
I assume you only store small quantities and are a careful fellow WEAL.

Industrial users have big safe cleaning tanks they push this stuff in and out of without human intervention, but homebrewers can be a bit too hands on sometimes.
Anyway I'm just saying be careful with this stuff and I might just stick to Starsan/Stellarsan as my main sterilizer.


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## Black Devil Dog (19/9/18)

I use Starsan and always rinse fermenters and kegs out with boiling hot water before filling them. I've never really followed the 'don't fear the foam' mantra that has been popular among brewers for quite some time. 

The only exceptions to this rule are the few 500ml swing tops per batch that I bottle, they get the 'no-rinse' treatment as do transfer hoses, taps etc.


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## wide eyed and legless (20/9/18)

altone said:


> Snippet from the PAA MSDS
> 
> 2.1 Classification of the substance or mixture Work Health and Safety Regulation 2011 - Flammable liquids , Category 4 H227: Combustible liquid. - Oxidizing liquids , Category 2 H272: May intensify fire; oxidiser. - Corrosive to metals , Category 1 H290: May be corrosive to metals. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H302: Harmful if swallowed. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H332: Harmful if inhaled. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H312: Harmful in contact with skin. - Skin corrosion , Category 1A H314: Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. - Serious eye damage , Category 1 H318: Causes serious eye damage. - Specific target organ toxicity - single exposure, Category 3 H335: May cause respiratory irritation. (Respiratory system),
> 
> ...


Once it is added to water at dosage rate it isn't so bad, yes you would still need to wear safety glasses and it does burn your hands but after an hour it is gone. Can't buy it in to big a quantity as it has to be kept in a fridge.
PTSAN5 
http://www.jaegaraustralia.com.au/product_data/TechDataPDF/Jaegar_Product Brochure_spreads.pdf


----------



## Courtney Scott (20/9/18)

MHB said:


> A quick google for the MSDS is often a fast way to learn what is in stuff
> Milton tablets MSDS (snip)
> View attachment 113607
> 
> ...


Sorry mate I haven't read a lot of MSDS's before what sort of stuff is it leaving behind? Would have thought it can't be too harmful given the main use is Baby bottles, but I'd be interested to know.
Regards,
Norto.


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## mongey (20/9/18)

I star san no rinse. I do santize bottles and put on my bottle tree first . that way they have about 15 min to drain excess while I get other stuff ready to bottle. and I def shake the Bejesus out of the fermenter to get rid of the excess foam when putting on a beer. 

I have thought about rinsing but arnt you just getting rid of the sanitation ? whats the point of doing it in first place


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## MHB (20/9/18)

Well apart from the two Carbonates (something I rarely add to beer), there is Adipic Acid, I have no idea what it is or what it is or does, same for dichloroisocyanurate (tho the name gives a few clues).
What I do know is that Chlorine is a pretty poor steriliser for brewing equipment (including bleach). Two main reasons I avoid Chlorine 1/ to avoid the formation of Chlorophenols 2/ most of my equipment is Stainless, Chlorine at any concentration will degrade stainless over time.
The other thing I do is called the "Law of unintended consequences" often talked about in the soggy sciences, but applies in the real world to.
Just to sight one possible example, low levels of Chlorine in town water are good for supressing disease carrying organisms, its safe for people to drink - so it chlorinated water must be OK for brewing, right?
Now apply the same thinking to a bunch of random chemicals, their breakdown products, the chemicals that may form when they react with wort constituents - really there is no practical way to know what will form, whether it will be good or bad, safe or dangerous....
If I don't know what something is going to do when added to a brew, I don't add it!


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## pist (20/9/18)

KegLand-com-au said:


> Sodium percarbonate is great at removing protein based soiling and also tannin (which is why it's so great at removing red wine from clothing like the nappy san adds on TV). With that said sodium percarbonate is no good at:
> 1. Removing oils (hop oils or any other oils), so ideally you want surfactnats to help with this
> 2. Its not particularly good if you have hard water. so you really need softening agents to help your cleaner do it's job
> 3. It's not good at removing beer stone on it's own
> ...



Have been using sodium percarbonate for a long time now, and do not agree with point 1.

I have soaked my fermenters in percarbonate after heavy dry hop loadings (200g plus in 23 litres) and all traces of aroma from the hops is removed. This to me would indicate that the hop oils have infact been removed. It has also removed 100% of the soiling every time in fermenters and no chill cubes. You are correct that it doesn’t remove beer stone on its own, but it does loosen it to the point where a light scrub will remove most of it if you have given your equipment a good hot soak. Obviously no good for beer stone build up in kegs for that reason. As a whole though it is a very good and effective cleaner.


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## pist (20/9/18)

I feel that by discrediting a low cost solution proven to be effective by many home brewers over the years and instead peddling a product of your own, you are just discrediting yourself. Aside from this, isn’t active peddling of ones wares in every single thread concerning products that they sell against the forum rules? Or is this allowed for this particular retailer? I’m fairly certain if brewman or one of the others did this, they would be promptly handed a ban or at the very least a stern warning


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## Black Devil Dog (20/9/18)

mongey said:


> I have thought about rinsing but arnt you just getting rid of the sanitation ? whats the point of doing it in first place




Not really, immediately after rinsing my kegs with boiling water, I seal them, purge them a few times with co2 and they remain sealed. I fill them straight away and I don't open them to fill, they're filled through the beer out post. 

The fermenters are also rinsed with boiling water and sealed until I fill them, which is very soon after and they do have to be opened, but the length of time that they're exposed is only a few minutes, I'm satisfied that the risk, while not zero, is certainly minimal.


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## altone (20/9/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Once it is added to water at dosage rate it isn't so bad, yes you would still need to wear safety glasses and it does burn your hands but after an hour it is gone. Can't buy it in to big a quantity as it has to be kept in a fridge.
> PTSAN5
> http://www.jaegaraustralia.com.au/product_data/TechDataPDF/Jaegar_Product Brochure_spreads.pdf



Well it certainly might be something to try for those getting persistent off flavours/infections and probably good for my "spring clean"

Hopefully it's available in small sizes. I only saw 25l cubes for sale in my quick search.

@pist I agree Perc works fine if you've got decent water quality, but a mix like PBW or Stellarclean is even better especially for tough buildup or areas with hard water.
I make up my own PBW clone so I'm not touting any commercial sellers wares


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## wide eyed and legless (20/9/18)

altone said:


> Well it certainly might be something to try for those getting persistent off flavours/infections and probably good for my "spring clean"
> 
> Hopefully it's available in small sizes. I only saw 25l cubes for sale in my quick search.
> 
> ...


Not to far from you, Boronia.
https://www.anpros.com.au/search.php?search_query=proxitane&x=9&y=11


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## altone (20/9/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Not to far from you, Boronia.
> https://www.anpros.com.au/search.php?search_query=proxitane&x=9&y=11



Thanks WEAL I've bought stuff from them in the past - might get the little 2.5kg one.


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## KegLand-com-au (21/9/18)

pist said:


> Have been using sodium percarbonate for a long time now, and do not agree to point 1.
> 
> I have soaked my fermenters in percarbonate after heavy dry hop loadings (200g plus in 23 litres) and all traces of aroma from the hops is removed. This to me would indicate that the hop oils have infact been removed. It has also removed 100% of the soiling every time in fermenters and no chill cubes. You are correct that it doesn’t remove beer stone on its own, but it does loosen it to the point where a light scrub will remove most of it if you have given your equipment a good hot soak. Obviously no good for beer stone build up in kegs for that reason. As a whole though it is a very good and effective cleaner.



If you have soft water you might be lucky and if you manually scrub from time to time this will also remove oils to some degree. 

It's fair to say sodium percarbonate will remove most aromas quite well however oils are completely insoluable in sodium percarbonate solution so it will probably be your manual scrubbing that is removing this residual hop oil not the sodium percarbonate itself.

I know products like this are more expensive than sodium percarbonate:
https://www.kegland.com.au/stellarc...ewery-cleaner-beer-line-cleaner-keg-wash.html
If price is the major factor then yes sodium percarbonate might be the best option economically.

Other than price do you find that pure sodium percarbonate is better in any other way? If you would like to test out, compare and report back on the forum let me know and I will throw in a free 1kg jar of our StellarClean cleaner to your next order with us. Just PM me for more informaton if you want to do a side by side comparison.


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## KegLand-com-au (21/9/18)

pist said:


> I feel that by discrediting a low cost solution proven to be effective by many home brewers over the years and instead peddling a product of your own, you are just discrediting yourself. Aside from this, isn’t active peddling of ones wares in every single thread concerning products that they sell against the forum rules? Or is this allowed for this particular retailer? I’m fairly certain if brewman or one of the others did this, they would be promptly handed a ban or at the very least a stern warning



Thanks for that. Your point is duely noted. I would only want to comment on a forum if the information we bring to the table is valuable to other readers.

As you know we sell pure sodium percarbonate as you can see here. So by all means it's not in our interest to discredit a low cost solution that we also sell ourselves. We provide sodium percarbonate because customers want to purchase it. With that said we also feel that better forumations exist as well.

When we say people are using Milton tablets this definitely was a concern as it was a product that we feared would contain Chlorine. As MHB as confirmed with the MSDS (Thanks for that Mark). It does contain chlorine. Is this not constructive for us to establish these facts?

At the time of this post we have received 257 likes to 416 messages that we have posted. This 62% like rate might indicate that the majority of people like our posts. With that said if people don't like our engagement in the forum then we would be more than happy not to engage.

What do you guys think? If you do not want us not to comment on this thread of sterilizing just let us know and we would be more than happy to leave this thread alone.


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## Thomas Wood (21/9/18)

KegLand-com-au said:


> What do you guys think? If you do not want us not to comment on this thread of sterilizing just let us know and we would be more than happy to leave this thread alone.


You provided a 20min informative video in a relevant thread. I have no problem with you also linking to your wares in the same post as it's still relevant and you have provided something of use to the community. Call it a trade


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## Nullnvoid (21/9/18)

I think what you are doing is fine. You are providing factual information and answering questions relevant to the topics. What I would say again though is perhaps you don't need to spam so many threads, ie posting the same sterilising video in every thread relevant. Just the once would be sufficient. 

Only my opinion though.


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## ShonkytonkBrewer (21/9/18)

Yeah keep it coming 

It's good to still get some decent knowledge on here.

Mind you your also often the impetus for troll responses. Which is fine and often entertaining.

After all...I come here for the drama, I go to the other forum for knowledge and expertise. You should come on over, you'd fit right in


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## KegLand-com-au (21/9/18)

Nullnvoid said:


> I think what you are doing is fine. You are providing factual information and answering questions relevant to the topics. What I would say again though is perhaps you don't need to spam so many threads, ie posting the same sterilising video in every thread relevant. Just the once would be sufficient.
> 
> Only my opinion though.



Great. That sounds like a good idea. We will keep the sanitising and cleaning information to this particular thread so we do not double up in other threads.


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## fungrel (22/9/18)

KegLand-com-au said:


> Great. That sounds like a good idea. We will keep the sanitising and cleaning information to this particular thread so we do not double up in other threads.


I think people have an issue on the mobile app because the app takes the last posted image/vid an uses it as the banner. Therefore it can look like you're spamming, even though you may have posted the same content weeks apart.


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## Courtney Scott (22/9/18)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Not really, immediately after rinsing my kegs with boiling water, I seal them, purge them a few times with co2 and they remain sealed. I fill them straight away and I don't open them to fill, they're filled through the beer out post.
> 
> The fermenters are also rinsed with boiling water and sealed until I fill them, which is very soon after and they do have to be opened, but the length of time that they're exposed is only a few minutes, I'm satisfied that the risk, while not zero, is certainly minimal.


This sounds like a good method might have to give it a crack.


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## Bogchops (22/9/18)

I used to try everything when I lived in North Qld and I was on rain water and/or creek water and no matter what I tried I couldn't get everything sterile enough. Eventually. I started throwing everything into the dishwasher and running a full cycle but fill the detergent dispenser with liquid chlorine. The dishwasher would provide a fantastic environment for circulating the fumes and sterilizing the bottles and would also rinse everything perfectly so there'd be no residue. I never had another bad batch from that moment on and if I still had to brew with dodgy water, that's probably what I'd do again. (And no - the chlorine didn't stuff up the dishwasher like I know someone is gonna say...)
Now I'm in Brisbane though, I just use Stellar-San because there are no water issues, at under $10/500ml it's dirt cheap and it's as easy as anything to use. 
StarSan is the same stuff at more than double the price


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## KegLand-com-au (23/9/18)

Courtney Scott said:


> This sounds like a good method might have to give it a crack.



That's not a bad method. I would also agree that if you can avoid opening the kegs prior to filling that is the ideal scenario.

If I have the time I fill the keg full with StellarSan then use CO2 to dispence the sanitiser into another keg. This will get the best possible purge when the CO2 is displacing liquid.

I know a lot of people pull the pressure relief a few times to purge CO2 and this helps but to get O2 in the keg and it's better than nothing but to get really low O2 you have to use a lot of CO2 to get down to the desired levels. Commecially speaking if you achieve 0.1% O2 in the head space of your keg this would be considered quite high. 

If you wanted to dilute the O2 in the 20L keg down to 0.1% you would have to use 3800Liters to dilute the O2 down to this level. So the cost in CO2 would be more than the cost of making the beer. If you diplace liquid sanitiser from the keg you can easily achieve lower O2 in the keg than 0.1%.


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## Black Devil Dog (23/9/18)

KegLand-com-au said:


> That's not a bad method. I would also agree that if you can avoid opening the kegs prior to filling that is the ideal scenario.
> 
> *If I have the time I fill the keg full with StellarSan then use CO2 to dispence the sanitiser into another keg. This will get the best possible purge when the CO2 is displacing liquid.*
> 
> ...




I've read that other people do this also and while it might get you the best possible purge of O2, you'll also have 100+ mls of sanitiser left in your keg before filling.
I'm happy to run the very low risk of O2 affecting my beer, than be consuming sanitiser every time I have a beer.


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## wide eyed and legless (24/9/18)

I think it speaks volumes just the fact that Phosphoric sanitisers aren't used commercially in AU/NZ and in the EU countries.


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## Black Devil Dog (24/9/18)

I just cleaned out one of my empty kegs and measured the liquid below the dip tube.

In this particular keg there's 200ml left behind. That would be sanitiser, if someone used the method recommended by KegLand above.

It's certainly not a method that I'll be using anytime soon.


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## Thomas Wood (24/9/18)

Black Devil Dog said:


> In this particular keg there's 200ml left behind. That would be sanitiser, if someone used the method recommended by KegLand above.


Isn't 200ml of heavily diluted no-rinse sanitiser negligible when adding 19L of beer on top?


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## Rocker1986 (24/9/18)

Probably, but you could just as easily use the method with water.


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## wide eyed and legless (24/9/18)

Thomas Wood said:


> Isn't 200ml of heavily diluted no-rinse sanitiser negligible when adding 19L of beer on top?


That is the question, who knows. Dodecylbenzine is my stumbling block, though I have used the Phosphoric sanitiser containing the latter on my plant pots and just let them air dry.


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## Black Devil Dog (24/9/18)

Thomas Wood said:


> Isn't 200ml of heavily diluted no-rinse sanitiser negligible when adding 19L of beer on top?




With normal 'no rinse' use, you'd get only about 30 - 40ml in a keg, even that small amount I don't want in my beer, so there's no way 200ml is making its way into it. 

Others might be ok with it, that's fine.


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## Smokomark (24/9/18)

Here's an idea.

Turn keg upside down and use pressure release valve to get rid of reclaiming sanitiser.


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## Smokomark (24/9/18)

Remaining sanitiser


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## Quokka42 (25/9/18)

Sorry to be late, but in answer to the original question - yes, you can. I don't remember the dilution, but you have to be careful that it's hard to find bleach that does not have scent/detergent/"inert fillers" added. you also have to rinse afterwards, but a kettle or two of boiling water usually does the trick.
I usually clean with sodium perc (or botlle washing powder for difficult bottles,) rinse and sanitise with a "Star San" type no-rinse sanitiser. Star San didn't invent it and don't have a patent - a similar sanitiser was used in breweries and soft drink manufacturers at least 10 years before they appeared. So, as annoying as Kegland can be, their product and equivalents are just as good.


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## wide eyed and legless (26/9/18)

Much as I like Proxitane, it takes no prisoners, I would like something that is a little more user friendly, not convinced with the Phosphoric sanitisers wondering whether the Quat may be enough after a sodium percarbonate or perborate pre wash. I will give it a go against the Proxitane and see how it fares.
http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/uploads/catalogs/cyndanaceticsanitise-proxitane_1339553796.pdf


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## altone (26/9/18)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I just cleaned out one of my empty kegs and measured the liquid below the dip tube.
> 
> In this particular keg there's 200ml left behind. That would be sanitiser, if someone used the method recommended by KegLand above.
> 
> It's certainly not a method that I'll be using anytime soon.




Thanks, I was concerned about that too.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (26/9/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Much as I like Proxitane, it takes no prisoners, I would like something that is a little more user friendly, not convinced with the Phosphoric sanitisers wondering whether the Quat may be enough after a sodium percarbonate or perborate pre wash. I will give it a go against the Proxitane and see how it fares.
> http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/uploads/catalogs/cyndanaceticsanitise-proxitane_1339553796.pdf


 Did I read correctly that the solution needs to be used within an hour of preparing?


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## Coalminer (27/9/18)

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Did I read correctly that the solution needs to be used within an hour of preparing?


Yes you did


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## wide eyed and legless (27/9/18)

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Did I read correctly that the solution needs to be used within an hour of preparing?


Yes lasts for 1 hour then dissipates to nothing, no residue left behind.


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

Good to see that someone at KK are following the posts, looks like they are going into the proxitane no rinse sanitiser, $16 per litre, slightly cheaper than I buy it for at Bayswater and saves me the drive.


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## Nullnvoid (12/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Good to see that someone at KK are following the posts, looks like they are going into the proxitane no rinse sanitiser, $16 per litre, slightly cheaper than I buy it for at Bayswater and saves me the drive.



Yeah didn't we establish his name was Beir Hearder?


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

I thought Bier Herder was Brad Amidzich. So who was he, did he wear a mask?


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## EmptyB (12/11/18)




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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

So it was Brad ?


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## EmptyB (12/11/18)

It was affiliation with Keg King, that's for sure. Either themselves or someone on their payroll/benefiting from spruiking their taps. Hence the shite..


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

Have you proof? "That's for sure" is a very strong innuendo.


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## EmptyB (12/11/18)

Nope, impossible to. Anyone wanting proof can go check out that user's posts and make a decision for themselves. They'll smell the shite.


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

Always dangerous to make assumptions, checking posts isn't proof.


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## EmptyB (12/11/18)

Never said it was, but it'll suffice


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

Seems to me you have a grief against Kegking have they aggravated you somehow?


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## EmptyB (12/11/18)

Nah, I have beef with misinformation


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## wide eyed and legless (12/11/18)

Such as?


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## EmptyB (12/11/18)

This thread is far enough off topic as it is. Anyone keen on seeing what misinformation I don't like can go through my post history to see which of your posts I've responded to. I doubt anyone cares enough though


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## altone (12/11/18)

Guys enough with the KK KL stuff, this was about sterilizing and here's your answer if you have deep pockets.

https://www.systec-lab.com/autoclaves/horizontal-floor-standing-autoclaves-65-1580-l/

I don't, and am very happy with Starsan Stellarsan or whatever other name is given to a similar product.
I do use a pressure cooker to kind of autoclave when I'm trying to recover yeast from smallish samples.

An occasional use of a different sanitizer I see as a good thing though - just in case.
I'd do it once a year on all my gear to get rid of any supernasties.

I am not happy with chlorine based products for sanitation - just to be clear.


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## BadBeatSab (13/11/18)

Forgive my ignorance and laziness please. 

I have been brewing since about January. I am starting to get some good results from only extract kits. 
The only sterilisation options I have found in my local brew shop is a mangrove jacks no rinse. It’s in a small bottle that lasts maybe 4-5 brews, maybe. 
It costs $6 a bottle . 

Obviously there are better options available but I’m wondering how everyone buys their stuff? Is it mainly online that you get cleaning chemicals? And what companies are best for this in your experience? 

P.s. sorry for being so lazy.


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## altone (13/11/18)

BadBeatSab said:


> Forgive my ignorance and laziness please.
> 
> I have been brewing since about January. I am starting to get some good results from only extract kits.
> The only sterilisation options I have found in my local brew shop is a mangrove jacks no rinse. It’s in a small bottle that lasts maybe 4-5 brews, maybe.
> ...



Try some of our sponsors.
I used to buy a lot of stuff like that from Craftbrewer and they were always great, but now I buy consumables and ingredients from a not so local home brew store mainly.

Oh btw my preferred cleaner would be PBW and sanitizer would be Starsan


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## wide eyed and legless (13/11/18)

For the last 6 years I have been using Proxitane, difficult to get in small quantities, Anpross in Bayswater Victoria sell it 2 litres, as do KegKing 1 and 5 litres brilliant as a line cleaner as well. Heaps of Phosphoric sanitisers around if you go down that track and it contains dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid be sure to let it dry.


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## BadBeatSab (19/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> For the last 6 years I have been using Proxitane, difficult to get in small quantities, Anpross in Bayswater Victoria sell it 2 litres, as do KegKing 1 and 5 litres brilliant as a line cleaner as well. Heaps of Phosphoric sanitisers around if you go down that track and it contains dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid be sure to let it dry.



I’m a bit noob to understand most of those words. lol. 
But thanks for your reply.


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## altone (19/11/18)

Proxitane is Peracetic acid - just google it.
It's a great product btw.

@wide eyed and legless dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid is used as part of a no rinse and not dried sanitizer in many food industry scenarios.
What is your concern with it exactly?
It's used in many laundry products too although the clothes are dried of course


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## wide eyed and legless (19/11/18)

altone said:


> Proxitane is Peracetic acid - just google it.
> It's a great product btw.
> 
> @wide eyed and legless dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid is used as part of a no rinse and not dried sanitizer in many food industry scenarios.
> ...


It is also used in insecticides, it is used in cosmetics, probably as a cleaning agent, not sure. Food industry yes in America, (if you have money you can get anything through the system there) not in Australia, nor EU is it used in food or food preparation, I believe it is used in abattoirs in the EU to wash benches but has to be thoroughly rinsed afterwards.
As for not drying, yes it should be air dried before use. https://beerco.com.au/products/star-san
I do still use it, but just for washing my plant pots


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## altone (19/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is also used in insecticides, it is used in cosmetics, probably as a cleaning agent, not sure. Food industry yes in America, (if you have money you can get anything through the system there) not in Australia, nor EU is it used in food or food preparation, I believe it is used in abattoirs in the EU to wash benches but has to be thoroughly rinsed afterwards.
> As for not drying, yes it should be air dried before use. https://beerco.com.au/products/star-san
> I do still use it, but just for washing my plant pots


It's essentially used as a surfactant as far as cleaning goes and was definitely used in the dairy industry 5 years ago (Maybe it wasn't meant to be so I will not say how I know that)
One of the things I like about Starsan is the foam keeps working after you dump the liquid out, but if you let it dry?

Maybe I'll dig around the interwebs a bit more, see if I can find a good reason it should be done that way.
Or by air dry do they just mean leave it for a minute or 2. Hmmm

As for my plant pots I just smack em with pool chlorine then wash them out.


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## wide eyed and legless (19/11/18)

Yes I used to use chlorine on my pots but I have some phosphoric sanitiser left so I will use that up before going back to chlorine.
I think it, (phosphoricsanitizer) may have been a 'No No' in the dairy industry here, though I have read of it being used in tankers not sure if it was rinsed afterwards.
Just for the cleaning of premises now. https://apvma.gov.au/node/4176


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## altone (19/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yes I used to use chlorine on my pots but I have some phosphoric sanitiser left so I will use that up before going back to chlorine.
> I think it, (phosphoricsanitizer) may have been a 'No No' in the dairy industry here, though I have read of it being used in tankers not sure if it was rinsed afterwards.
> Just for the cleaning of premises now. https://apvma.gov.au/node/4176



Well someone I may or may not know has seen it used way beyond that 
Regardless, is there a specific health issue that you know of or are we talking best practices?
We all break that one methinks


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## wide eyed and legless (19/11/18)

altone said:


> Well someone I may or may not know has seen it used way beyond that
> Regardless, is there a specific health issue that you know of or are we talking best practices?
> We all break that one methinks


Specific health issues are that it hasn't been tested for specific health issues.


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## Cheap Drunk (24/11/18)

Hey guys, I have a question about infected beer. One of my recent brews had what looked exactly like the photos of lacto infections I've seen. I bottled anyway, taking care to leave the last few litres on top. In some ways it's the best I've made. Perfectly carbed, great colour, good mouth feel. It tastes alright but it's definitely weird. And the smell...very unusual. I can't disconnect it from the sight that greeted me in the FV, so basically mould. So leaving aside whether it's a good beer or not, is it going to make me sick?


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## wide eyed and legless (24/11/18)

Won't make you sick, what are you sanitising with?
Here is what Martin Brungard had to say on Homebrewtalk.

Peracetic acid (PAA) is a very useful and safe sanitizer when used at low concentrations. Only about 100 ppm PAA is sufficient to kill virtually all microorganisms. 

The presence of acetic acid aroma is not a surprise. It turns out that PAA exists in equilibrium with its two main constituents: acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. The acetic acid is not a problem in brewing and if PAA is used as a spray or is drained from the equipment, there won't be a flavor impact to the beer. 

While the PEL is low, the warning signs of exposure are unmistakable and should be sufficient to get the user to avoid excessive and adverse exposure. If your eyes water or your nose or mouth mucous membranes are irritated, then you need to get away from that area. Spraying the solution in a ventilated area should keep most users out of a hazardous situation. 

PAA is widely used in many food and beverage industries including brewing and should be used more by homebrewers.


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## altone (24/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Won't make you sick, what are you sanitising with?
> 
> 
> PAA is widely used in many food and beverage industries including brewing and should be used more by homebrewers.



If only the local homebrew shops sold it in small quantities like a 500ml bottle 
Most suppliers want to sell 25litres a few have 5l bottles too 
One I found has 1l bottles that cost as much as 5l


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## wide eyed and legless (24/11/18)

5 litres is a lot, more for small breweries. 1 litre bottles will be coming available soon for $16, I would suppose it would filter down to other home brew stores, though shipping could present a problem.


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## altone (24/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> 5 litres is a lot, more for small breweries. 1 litre bottles will be coming available soon for $16, I would suppose it would filter down to other home brew stores, though shipping could present a problem.


Now that would be more like it! I was quoted $52 for the 1l and $56 for the 5l.


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## Cheap Drunk (24/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Won't make you sick, what are you sanitising with?
> Here is what Martin Brungard had to say on Homebrewtalk.
> 
> Peracetic acid (PAA) is a very useful and safe sanitizer when used at low concentrations. Only about 100 ppm PAA is sufficient to kill virtually all microorganisms.
> ...


Mostly I've been using di San between brews and haven't had a problem. After the infection I used di San and whatsy metabisulphite. Have had several brews since with no problem. I intend to get starsan or stellar San soon. Thanks for the info. I've actually had a few of them and haven't crapped out my innards but still it's good to get the thumbs up.


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## altone (24/11/18)

Cheap Drunk said:


> Mostly I've been using di San between brews and haven't had a problem. After the infection I used di San and whatsy metabisulphite. Have had several brews since with no problem. I intend to get starsan or stellar San soon. Thanks for the info. I've actually had a few of them and haven't crapped out my innards but still it's good to get the thumbs up.


Oh geez Disan is more a cleaner than a sterilizer. Go the stellar/Starsan way as soon as you can - or peracetic acid, but Starsan clones are cheap and easily available.
And if it's a lactic infection it's not likely to kill you if you drink it


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## Cheap Drunk (24/11/18)

altone said:


> Oh geez Disan is more a cleaner than a sterilizer. Go the stellar/Starsan way as soon as you can - or peracetic acid, but Starsan clones are cheap and easily available.
> And if it's a lactic infection it's not likely to kill you if you drink it


I realize it's not a sanitizer but the sodium metabisulphite is. It's not no rinse but I just rinse thoroughly and wipe everything dry with a clean paper towel. I do that every few brews or if there's been some time between brews. I still have a fair bit left.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (24/11/18)

So would paa be a good choice for filling a keg then using C02 to push it out for getting rid of oxygen? Or would the remaining amount cause a flavour issue?


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## altone (24/11/18)

Cheap Drunk said:


> I realize it's not a sanitizer but the sodium metabisulphite is. It's not no rinse but I just rinse thoroughly and wipe everything dry with a clean paper towel. I do that every few brews or if there's been some time between brews. I still have a fair bit left.


Sodium Meta isn't really a sanitizer much more than Disan/percarb - They do have sanitizing effects but probably not to the extent of true sanitizers.
And if you rinse after - what with? water still at 100C or was boiling but now cooler water (like I do)
I'd rather spend ten bucks on some real sanitizer than run the gauntlet of should be ok and lose $50 of ingredients if it wasn't.

edit Oh @FarsideOfCrazy good question, although if you're only leaving a few ml in the keg I'd suspect the acetic taste/smell wouldn't cause an issue.
WEAL should know - uses it all the time.


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## Cheap Drunk (24/11/18)

altone said:


> Sodium Meta isn't really a sanitizer much more than Disan/percarb - They do have sanitizing effects but probably not to the extent of true sanitizers.
> And if you rinse after - what with? water still at 100C or was boiling but now cooler water (like I do)
> I'd rather spend ten bucks on some real sanitizer than run the gauntlet of should be ok and lose $50 of ingredients if it wasn't.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised to read that as it actually says it's a sterilizer. We all know that's not possible but I did think it would be a decent sanitizer. I've just been rinsing with tap water. After all, that's what I'm using to make the beer. And when I start a brew I boil the kettle and pour it over every internal surface.
I understand what you're saying but I rarely have more than $20 worth of ingredients.


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## wide eyed and legless (24/11/18)

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> So would paa be a good choice for filling a keg then using C02 to push it out for getting rid of oxygen? Or would the remaining amount cause a flavour issue?


There are no flavour issues, would never get up to perception level, I can't even smell anything when its mixed.


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## altone (24/11/18)

Well there you go. WEAL uses it a lot apparently I never have.Can't find a small quantity at a reasonable price but I will use it as it's widely used in food production.

As for strong cleaner vs sanitizer it might be levels of paranoia on my part but sterilizer -nope nothing you buy from the LHBS fits that bill really.

If you wanna sterilize something you need to chuck it in a good pressure cooker (ie high pressure) or an autoclave.

Sanitizing is good enough for brew gear, when I'm storing yeast it's the pressure cooker for me.


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## Milhouse (24/11/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> It is also used in insecticides, it is used in cosmetics, probably as a cleaning agent, not sure. s



How is this relevant? Water is used in insecticides, cosmetics and cleaning products. Are you saying I shouldn't use water in my beer?


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