# Reverse Osmoses



## churchy (16/2/09)

Hi guys been searching a few threads and just wanted some feadback.Am I right that the consenses seems to be that filtered water is the best?I have accses to a reverse osmoses plant at work so I can grab as much water as I want.Does filtered water taste any better than tap water.Is it the small suttle differences that make better beer?
What do ya rekon.




Andrew


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## Back Yard Brewer (16/2/09)

churchy said:


> Hi guys been searching a few threads and just wanted some feadback.Am I right that the consenses seems to be that filtered water is the best?I have accses to a reverse osmoses plant at work so I can grab as much water as I want.Does filtered water taste any better than tap water.Is it the small suttle differences that make better beer?
> What do ya rekon.
> 
> 
> ...




Use straight out of the tap, water. Never had a problem. I have access to R.O water as well but don't bother.

BYB


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## Goofinder (16/2/09)

From what I recall, RO water isn't all that good for brewing as some of the minerals help in the mash. It's a good starting point if you want to re-create water from a specific brewing region, but I can't really see the point in that.

As long as your tap water tastes OK it should be fine. I'm assuming that as this is in the Beginner Partials/AG section you're new to AG, in which case I would be concentrating on getting other parts of your process sorted before messing with water.


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## Adamt (16/2/09)

I'm assuming you're mashing...

How to Brew Chapter 15

Basically it depends what you're brewing, RO water is a blank slate to develop your own water profile.


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## unterberg (16/2/09)

I should think that normal water will just be fine. The bits of minerals in it wont hurt but rather help the yeast feeling comfortable.
Yeast nutrient is in the end just some amino acids, minerals and extracts like yeast extract, peptone and so on.


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## matti (16/2/09)

It all depends on what water you have in tap.
I haven't heard anything bad about Perth water supplies.

It also depends on what stage you are in your brewing practices.

Burton beer require a little harder water and so does some of the German lager to.
Dortmund and Vienna lagers uses hard water.

If you desire to brew pilsner Go for it.

Matti


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## Guest Lurker (16/2/09)

Depends what sort of brewing you are doing, but for kits, RO water will be much better than Beechboro water due to the amount of chlorine in it, while for beer made using only grain, RO water plus some minerals, or tap water with the clorine removed is the go.


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## newguy (17/2/09)

It largely depends on your tap water. The city where I lived when I first started brewing had horrible tap water - pH of 8.9 - which is ridiculously high. In order to avoid astringency (tannin leaching from mash), I had to use at least ~50-60% RO water, or I had to add a lot of acid to the water to get the pH down. I did once try 100% RO water and it was awful. Truly awful - the minerals definitely play a role in the finished beer, and believe me you'll miss them if they're gone.

If you draw your water from a municipal source, try to get a water analysis report. Many cities will publish their daily/weekly/monthly water quality reports online. If you find the report and can't make sense of the numbers, post back here. If you draw your water from a cistern (rain sourced), you're good to brew with it. Rain water is really good for brewing.


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## eamonnfoley (2/3/09)

Anyone know where the water on the Bayswater side of Maylands (Perth) is sourced? Tastes ok but seems to vary a bit, sometimes tasting a bit chlorinated.

Got a persistent problem and I am starting to wonder if the water has something to do with it.


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## litre_o_cola (2/3/09)

foles said:


> Anyone know where the water on the Bayswater side of Maylands (Perth) is sourced? Tastes ok but seems to vary a bit, sometimes tasting a bit chlorinated.
> 
> Got a persistent problem and I am starting to wonder if the water has something to do with it.



Yours is a combo of Desal plant and Mundaring Weir where as mine is Desal and Serpentine Dam.
I have noticed that Swan View is bad for this, like when you boil the kettle and get a massive wiff of chlorine out of it.
I am fortunate that down here it seems to be used in a lower amount.


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## eamonnfoley (2/3/09)

cheers for that advice. I'm guessing mine should be ok for brewing then?


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## PhilA (2/3/09)

For the chlorine why not try Campden tablets to strip chlorine and leaves minerals


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## Guest Lurker (3/3/09)

foles said:


> Anyone know where the water on the Bayswater side of Maylands (Perth) is sourced? Tastes ok but seems to vary a bit, sometimes tasting a bit chlorinated.
> 
> Got a persistent problem and I am starting to wonder if the water has something to do with it.



Hi Foles

I am on the Maylands side of Bayswater. If I dont use camden tablets to drop the chlorine I can taste chlorophenols, especially in cascade type beers. The water has a pH well over 8 and is well buffered, so for light beers I add some acid as well.


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## Spartan 117 (3/3/09)

Adamt said:


> Basically it depends what you're brewing, RO water is a blank slate to develop your own water profile.



+1

yeah was gonna say pretty much the same thing all RO does is remove any sort of dissolved particles that way you can add any sort of salts you want in any sort of concentration 

Aaron


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## RdeVjun (3/3/09)

Or blend your RO and tap water perhaps?

Our town water here in Toowoomba is a bit iffy IMO, so I use boiled, chilled rainwater. I boil it because the state of the gutters and tank leave a lot to be desired biologically. Then I chill it to get the fermenter temp just about right to pitch straight away when its mixed with a 4 litre hot wort of extracts. But occasionally I don't have enough chilled, so rather than use unboiled rainwater, I just use tap water to make it up to full, a few litres at most. So, sometimes I end up with a blend. Oh and yeah, I reoxygenate it by pouring from height. Works great.

To address one of the OP's questions, I think water quality can make a significant difference, but I haven't tested that thoroughly to see for sure, however there are plenty of anecdotes. Also, RO water probably shouldn't be used directly as, according to other anecdotes, it can be so devoid of dissolved minerals that in the digestion and elimination process it actually removes them from the body, I'm guessing by a similar osmosis process that generated it. I guess too that the RO water you'd get domestically from reticulated supply and the RO water that Andrew has access to from his workplace are two completely different things, quality- wise. If you've got access to low- EC (conductivity) RO water Andrew, I'd blend it back at least to coastal rainwater strength, say about 20- 30uS/cm and erring on the stronger side would be best- for you, your brews and the yeast would probably benefit too.

Slightly- :icon_offtopic: - This thread reminds me of something that probably every one of us have seen at one point or other:
*Assmosis:* A process through which an otherwise stupid and unworthy individual attains high standing and success by sucking up to superiors and stepping on colleagues to attain undeserved superior status in a corporate workplace  _"It was plain for all to see that X's success was not gained through posession of a superior intellect, by hard work or having experience. No, it was achieved through simple assmosis."_


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## KegLand-com-au (23/9/19)

I know it's been a long time since this thread has been active but have you guys used any RO systems? Would be keen to get your feedback from different states? Our water is pretty good in Melbourne but would be keen to know if many brewers in other states are using RO for brewing?


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## bbqzookeeper (23/9/19)

KegLand-com-au said:


> I know it's been a long time since this thread has been active...



10 Years.

I'm looking into getting a RO System, but from what I've read everywhere, PSI water filters are the way to go.


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## wozzie (24/9/19)

Something im looking more into. Canberra water is great for the most part as a base to build on. I would like to reduce the alkalinity as it sits around 40-55 (not high by any means), would like it to be around 20 max


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## Josh Dodd (24/9/19)

I have a six stage RO/DI (Reverse Osmosis and De-ionisation) filter setup I just installed a few weeks ago. There's a split line in the middle of the system and a presure tank. The water passes through three filters, then the RO filter and then either goes into the 3 gal storage tank and then out through the carbon filter into a tap on the sink for drinking/brewing/freshwater aquarium use (99% pure); or I can use a seperate tap to pass it from the RO filter into the De-Ionisation filter then out through a seperate tube for saltwater aquarium use (99.9% pure). It's not reccomended to drink DI water because you've taken TOO much out of the water, but Marine Aquariums want water as pure as possible.
From my understanding, using DI water for brewing wouldn't be worth it as the brewing process add's back plenty of adjuncts and proteins and contaminants so it defeats the purpose. Likewise not advised for Freshwater tanks as it strips out the beneficial minerals the plants and animals need. Marine tanks are different as you are mixing up saltwater with a carefully balanced mix so you want ultra pure so you know exactly whats going in.
It's a complicated setup ad takes up a lot of room under the sink but gives me pure water for drinking for the family, pure water for brewing and carbonation for soft drinks, and for topping up the freshwater tank and then ultra pure water for my saltwater tank setup.
If you're not keeping fish, better to skip the last DI filter setup and go straight RO. My setup was AU$300 plus additional international shipping (purchased from US through eBay). Just shy of $400 all up. Local sellers where considerably more expensive. RO setup on it's own is a bit cheaper.

I will point out that an RO filter slows the passage of water quite a bit. You need to have a pressurised storage tank as part of the setup. The filter system keeps the tank permanently topped up and the tap draws from that. My system has a 3.2 Gal/12 litre tank. That means a standard brew for a 19l corny or for 23L worth of bottles, will drain the tank fully and you have to wait for it to refill to finish filling for the brew. Depending on the rating of your RO filter it can take some time to refill the tank. Mines rated at 100 gal/378 litres per day so a little under an hour to refill the tank. It just means that filling your kettle or fermenter can take a while and is a two step process. 

Additionally, bear in mind replacement cost for filters - RO should be done every 2 years depending on usage. The other filters every 12 months. You can source cheap filters online, and the fittings are an international standard so any filter brand should fit. But four to five filters every 12-24 months can add up. Bulk buying the filters is a good option to invesitgate.

Final consideration is your home water pressure. If it's too low you need a booster pump to push it through tthe filter, Too high and you need a pressure control valve to slow it down. 

It's a bit complicated and there'ssome testing and research before deciding exactly what you want, but once you have that, installation is easy (did it all myself). An RO system does takle up a LOT of space under the sink though, because of the storage tank. 

One thing that KL should consider when stocking these is that, technically, I think your supposed to get them fitted by a licenced plumber? The process is actually really easy, and only required drilling a single drain hole in the waste pipe and a hole for the tap in the sink, everything else was push in fittings similar to the duotight fittings. But if the local regs state you need a plumber to install, that's an additional cost on the purchaser. Buying from a local water filter company often includes installation in the price. 

Previous brews I did just using a standard 3 stage water filter (not RO) or even just using tap water (our previous house only had 3 stage, and I did two brews in the new place before installing the new setup) I honestly didn;t notice that much different. A three or four stage filter purifies your water a lot and is probably enough for the average user. The RO is an extra stage for those who really want to go pure. Personally, I wouldn't have bothered if I didn't need the ultra pure RO/DI water for my reef aquarium. I would have just got a cheaper, smaller and simpler 3 stage filter.


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## KegLand-com-au (24/9/19)

bbqzookeeper said:


> 10 Years.
> 
> I'm looking into getting a RO System, but from what I've read everywhere, PSI water filters are the way to go.



No worries. I will contact PSI Water Filters. We might end up stocking one of these.


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## KegLand-com-au (24/9/19)

wozzie said:


> Something im looking more into. Canberra water is great for the most part as a base to build on. I would like to reduce the alkalinity as it sits around 40-55 (not high by any means), would like it to be around 20 max



Yes we are getting more advanced brewers that want to have more control. Although the water suppliers generally have data sheets these are often not detailed enough to establish an accurate baseline. So starting with RO and building the water back up might be something we need to assist our customers with a bit more in future.


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## Josh Dodd (24/9/19)

bbqzookeeper said:


> 10 Years.
> 
> I'm looking into getting a RO System, but from what I've read everywhere, PSI water filters are the way to go.


Are PSI a retailer of filter systems or a particular type of system? 
Looks like they're just a seller of various filter systems. 
I did a lot of research, and as long as the system you are buying uses Industry standard filter cartridges, there's not a lot of difference between the various manufacturers. The filter steup itself is pretty standard, and the cartridges are geenrally made to a well regulated standard. Indeed, once you've invested in the basic setup, you can buy your replacement cartridges from anywhere. 
Some of the more expensive systemn include electronic meters and TDS testers and permeate booster pumps and various add-ons. Not sure how many of those would really be necessary in your average system. 

I can see KegLand filling a gap in the market by selling good quality, low-cost systems, just like they do with a lot of their products. They just need to make sure the sales and installatoin process complies with local reg's, and the product they are supplying meets local standards. I'd be interested to see if they can compete with other sellers on the refill cartridges. I did some research and if you buy in bulk (5 or 10 cartridges at a time) then you can save a LOT of money. That's the real cost of a filter system. Espcially the more complex 4, 5 or 6 stage systems - suddenly you have to buy a lot more refills. 

Actually, long term that's probably where the testers and analysis stuff comes in handy. If you have to replace three or four filters at a time, it;s probably good to be able to tell when you actually need to replace and not just when you're "supposed to". May look into picking some up and retrofitting to my system.


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## bbqzookeeper (24/9/19)

KegLand-com-au said:


> No worries. I will contact PSI Water Filters. We might end up stocking one of these.



Specifically, they have a Chloramine RO Unit for say $280.
It also includes a gauge, so that would be my preference (as I'm based in Sydney) over your $250 one.


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## KegLand-com-au (25/9/19)

Josh Dodd said:


> I have a six stage RO/DI (Reverse Osmosis and De-ionisation) filter setup I just installed a few weeks ago. There's a split line in the middle of the system and a presure tank. The water passes through three filters, then the RO filter and then either goes into the 3 gal storage tank and then out through the carbon filter into a tap on the sink for drinking/brewing/freshwater aquarium use (99% pure); or I can use a seperate tap to pass it from the RO filter into the De-Ionisation filter then out through a seperate tube for saltwater aquarium use (99.9% pure). It's not reccomended to drink DI water because you've taken TOO much out of the water, but Marine Aquariums want water as pure as possible.
> From my understanding, using DI water for brewing wouldn't be worth it as the brewing process add's back plenty of adjuncts and proteins and contaminants so it defeats the purpose. Likewise not advised for Freshwater tanks as it strips out the beneficial minerals the plants and animals need. Marine tanks are different as you are mixing up saltwater with a carefully balanced mix so you want ultra pure so you know exactly whats going in.
> It's a complicated setup ad takes up a lot of room under the sink but gives me pure water for drinking for the family, pure water for brewing and carbonation for soft drinks, and for topping up the freshwater tank and then ultra pure water for my saltwater tank setup.
> If you're not keeping fish, better to skip the last DI filter setup and go straight RO. My setup was AU$300 plus additional international shipping (purchased from US through eBay). Just shy of $400 all up. Local sellers where considerably more expensive. RO setup on it's own is a bit cheaper.
> ...



If customers are using this for brewing do you think the pressure tank is really necessary? We were thinking if we supplied the system with 3/4thread customers can screw onto the standard garden tap at home then just leave the system running the night before and run the RO water into a bucket/spare fermenter so it's ready for brewing the next day. So not necessarily something that was intended to use for daily drinking water. When the pressure tank is removed the system is half the size. Then for customers who wanted to be a bit more advanced they can use a solenoid valve and a float switch so when the bucket fills up the system turns off.


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## WEF (26/9/19)

KegLand-com-au said:


> If customers are using this for brewing do you think the pressure tank is really necessary? We were thinking if we supplied the system with 3/4thread customers can screw onto the standard garden tap at home then just leave the system running the night before and run the RO water into a bucket/spare fermenter so it's ready for brewing the next day. So not necessarily something that was intended to use for daily drinking water. When the pressure tank is removed the system is half the size. Then for customers who wanted to be a bit more advanced they can use a solenoid valve and a float switch so when the bucket fills up the system turns off.



Sounds like what i'd do if i had your system...


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## Josh Dodd (26/9/19)

KegLand-com-au said:


> If customers are using this for brewing do you think the pressure tank is really necessary? We were thinking if we supplied the system with 3/4thread customers can screw onto the standard garden tap at home then just leave the system running the night before and run the RO water into a bucket/spare fermenter so it's ready for brewing the next day. So not necessarily something that was intended to use for daily drinking water. When the pressure tank is removed the system is half the size. Then for customers who wanted to be a bit more advanced they can use a solenoid valve and a float switch so when the bucket fills up the system turns off.


Interesting idea. Flow from an RO on it's own is really slow, so it would take a while. For me, if I'm investing that kind of money in a water filtration system, I'd definitely want to use it for drinking water as well. But obviously others may want different. Options are always good. 
It's not a scenario I personally would probably want but I can definitely see that there'd be plenty of folks who only want it for brewing who'd love that idea. It also neatly avoids any issues around plumbing regulations because it's a temporary hose attachment. Clever.


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## sp0rk (26/9/19)

Interesting that you've dug up this decade old thread when you've just listed an RO system on your site :/
I'll probably give it a go though, I'm wanting a system and don't need a pressure tank. I'll likely fab up an adjustable height float valve that I can attach to my Guten or my keggle


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## theSeekerr (26/9/19)

KegLand-com-au said:


> Yes we are getting more advanced brewers that want to have more control. Although the water suppliers generally have data sheets these are often not detailed enough to establish an accurate baseline. So starting with RO and building the water back up might be something we need to assist our customers with a bit more in future.



If you're targeting "advanced brewers" why is the product description page mostly full of alternative-health woo about drinking water?


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## Josh Dodd (27/9/19)

theSeekerr said:


> If you're targeting "advanced brewers" why is the product description page mostly full of alternative-health woo about drinking water?


I'm assuming the main body text is a cut and paste from another website or from the manufacturer's page or something and potentially is inaccurate

Looking at the unit listed on KL's site the filter is rated at 50 Gal per day. They've stated in the body text that to be 215 Liters per day... which is odd. If they're talking Imperial Gallons that would be 227 Litres a day. But if it's US Gallons (which seems far more likely) we're talking 189 litres per day.
Edit: I see under the tech specs at the top they are listing 190L...

The first works out to a flow of about 157ml per minute.
The second is 130ml per minute.
Be good to definitely confirm what the units actual rating is? Traditionally its US gallons NOT Imperial for water filter measurements, so I'm assuming the 190 L is the right number,

I haven't got into All Grain yet but from what I can see, you need at least 6 Gallons for a 5 Gallon brew?
That's a little over 3 hours to collect the water for a brew.
That's not nearly the "leave running overnight" suggested previously, but is still a fairly long time to collect the water.

A suggestion for KegLand - It might be worth being a little clearer about what the actually expected flow from the unit is? I know I'd be a little surprised to connect one up and get water dripping out at around 2 ml per second.... There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to properly set peoples expectations.

On the bright side, the price for refills from KL isn't too bad. About industry-standard in Aus.

I note that this uses two coconut carbon filters and an RO membrane. There's no micro sediment filter at the start to filter out larger particles and lengthen the life of the carbon filters. However, they are using the preffered carbon block filters which offer better filtration which is good.
The reason the first filter is rated at 6 months and the second at 12 is that the first cartridge is doing the work of the Micro Particle filter as well, taking out the dirt, silt, and small particles. Traditionally you have a washable Micro Particle filter first. That gets the big junk out, and it can be washed and re-used. That results in your carbon filters lasting longer. This does away with that, resulting in more frequent cartridge replacement. Ironically the build of this unit has more than enough space for a third filter cartridge which could house a particle filter. Ideally, you'd add another cartridge in the middle, move the first carbon block to that and place a sediment filter in the first housing, giving you a four-stage filter that would have a significantly longer lifespan on your carbon filters. In theory, you could probably even do that yourself with off the shelf parts.

Anyway, long rambling post here (you can tell I did a lot of research into this recently for my own purchase)

*TLDR? It's a decent enough setup that could definitely be improved with an additional filter and one that will have a glacially slow flow, dripping out about 2 mls per second. If you're fine with that flow rate, this seems like a decent option and the price is competitive. *


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## mabrungard (20/10/19)

The use of tap water for your brewing is dependent upon the quality and suitability of that water for brewing. There certainly are places that have lightly mineralized water sources that make it easy to ADD salts and/or acids to produce a good brew. But there are also places that have highly mineralized water sources that make it tougher to produce some (maybe all) beer styles. Its this later case that a brewer could benefit from employing a treatment measure to remove excess mineralization or find another less mineralized source for brewing. 

If you have lightly mineralized water...great! But if you don't and you aren't happy with your beers, then its OK to get deeper into your water source.


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## Journeyman (30/10/19)

KegLand-com-au said:


> So starting with RO and building the water back up might be something we need to assist our customers with a bit more in future.


Many RO systems come with a re-mineraliser that has a standard profile. It's an extra stage after the RO and before the tank.
Also, to ramp up production (a LOT) install a flow tap on the waste output - have it OFF most of the time and once a week, turn it on for 5 minutes or so to flush the upstream side of the RO. Boosts the pressure out noticeably.
I had a system from a QLD supplier and didn't know about this - half way through a tankful the pressure would drop to a mere trickle. With the waste outlet tap OFF the pressure stays at max rating for the RO.
I got my new system from ebay for less than 1/4 the cost and thought there was a problem until I read the specs sheet and saw the tip about using the outlet tap properly.


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## Journeyman (30/10/19)

bbqzookeeper said:


> Specifically, they have a Chloramine RO Unit for say $280.
> It also includes a gauge, so that would be my preference (as I'm based in Sydney) over your $250 one.


A 'chloramine' system is a bit of a furphy. Chloramines are dealt with by a carbon filter and ALL RO systems filter out pretty much everything, and apart from distilling, they are the ONLY filtering that removes fluoride. But chloramines are removed with active or catalytic carbon filters.
And, BTW, RO also filters out biologics - they are simply too large to pass through the membranes.


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