# Designing a Kilkenny Clone Extract



## PhilipB (19/11/16)

Hi Guys and Gals,

I am researching the making of a Kilkenny clone extract brew. I like Kilkenny

I did a bit of googling around and found a reference in 'The Home Brewer's recipe handbook' for Kilkenny stating:

'Smithwick's Ale / Kilkenny Irish Beer : ABV 4% or 5% Malt: Pale Malt, Roast Barley, Maltose syrup. Hops: Goldings, Challenger, Target, Northdown'\
' Kilkenny Ale OG 1052. Malt: 91% Pale malt, 9% Crystal Malt. Hops: Fuggles, Goldings, Northdown, Northern Brewer. IBU: 33 EBC:30'

Wikipedia references that Kilkenny has an EBU of 29 and an ABV of 4.3%

I found anecdotal information that said the EBC should be 27. 

I also identified that it should not be over carbonated and is a Red Irish Ale and it is gassed CO2 and Nitrogen. The nitrogen creates that creamy feel.

Other recipes that I identified, along with comments mentioned the importance of Barley for colouration.

My extracts are boiled in a 10 litre pot.

I set about using BeerSmith 2 and came up with the following recipe and would love to hear your thoughts.

1.5 KG Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) (39.5% IBU)
1.5 KG Amber Liquid extract (24.6 EBC) (39.5% IBU)
100GM Caramel / Crystal Malt 10L (19.7 EBC) (2.6% IBU)
130GM Roasted Barley (591 EBC) (3.4% IBU)
200GM Flaked Barley (3.3 EBC) (5.2% IBU)
300GM Maltodextrin (5.9 EBC) (7.8% IBU)
100GM Table Sugar (2.0 EBC) (2.6% IBU)
25GM Northdown hops @ 30 minutes (10 IBUs)
20GM Target hops @ 25 minutes (9.4 IBUs)
20GM East Kent Goldings (EKG) hops @ 25 minutes (5 IBUs)
20GM Challenger hops @ 15 Minutes (4.6 IBUs)
1 tsp Irish Moss (fining) @ 10 minutes

Yeast: Wyeast Labs 1084

IBU 29
EBC 27

Est OG 1.046
Est FG 1.015
Est ABV 4.3%

Steeping temp 68 degrees 30 minutes

23 litre Ferment size.

I am still researching and need to make sure I can get all these ingredients.

Appreciate your thoughts on this esp if you have brewed a Kilkenny / Smithwicks Irish red Ale before.


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## PhilipB (22/11/16)

Any one have any thoughts on this ?


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## fishingbrad (22/11/16)

I brew the Better red than dead in the recipe DB (all grain I know). I feel this is better the Kilkenny. 

from experience I would drop the roast down to half. try and stick with only 2 hops; EKG & Fuggels. you got the right yeast. brew @ 18c. try it and report back. love a good Irish red.


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## PhilipB (22/11/16)

Thanks Brad. Still tweeking things but it's the the next brew I am doing


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## Fatgodzilla (23/11/16)

Had a look at your recipe, just my thoughts. The roast barley is really only for colour, so steep it in cool to warm water (not boiling) overnight to extract the colours but leave any bitterness/ harshness behind.

Hoping the amber malt and crystal in conjunction with the roast barley doesn't make this too dark.

Hop looks okay, because you want this is to be a malt driven beer. But worried that what you have will be a bit too bitter. Interesting to see.

Assume only a half hour boil? 

All other stuff looks spot on.

When I was developing the all grain Better Red Than Dead I made about half a dozen variations before I stuck with the final product. Hopefully you'll wont need as many does. Keep us informed.


ps I found this beer needed a bit of sitting time to develop after it finished fermenting. But was worth waiting for. Best of luck.


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## PhilipB (24/11/16)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Had a look at your recipe, just my thoughts. The roast barley is really only for colour, so steep it in cool to warm water (not boiling) overnight to extract the colours but leave any bitterness/ harshness behind.
> 
> Hoping the amber malt and crystal in conjunction with the roast barley doesn't make this too dark.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much 

With boil time, I was thinking 60 minutes and then crashing the temperature.

Thank you for the tip with the roast barley. 

All my timings are generated from Brewmaster2 to keep to the overall EBC and IBU requirements I have set. 

Understandably it's a computer program and will always be outsmarted by taste! 

I will be looking to bulk prime using a secondary fermenter and bottling. I normally leave my brews 3 - 6 months before cracking open.


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## Fatgodzilla (24/11/16)

if boiling for 60 minutes, look at adding hops at first boil. 10-15g of the Northdown will supply a fair bitterness over 60 minutes. See what your beer calculator says for this. As said before, looks like a lot of hops for this style of beer. You need balance, but also a malt forward brew. 

Actually looking at the hops, my first thought is a nice English bitter/ IPA.

Brew this recipe anyway and keep us informed. 

Suggest you drink a bottle of this (assume you are bottling) every fortnight or so just to see how it develops. 

PS don't trust idiots like myself. Brew, keep good notes, share your beer with brewers (mates cant be trusted), listen to their comments, be prepared for both good and bad reactions, trust your judgment and change your recipe or techniques if you think you can improve the brew. And if it tastes like shit, chuck it out, tell nobody. (Done that a few times, trust me on that).

 :beerbang:


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## Bribie G (24/11/16)

If you are looking to emulate the Commercial Kilkenny I'd just use a bittering hop such as Target. AFAIK Guinness just use hop extra in their mainstream beers although they have branched out recently with a few craftwashed brews according to the Pommy forums, but that's a different story.

Edit, not wishing to rain on parades but the concept of Irish Red is really a marketing tool of the last few decades. Beers such as Smithwicks, Kilkenny etc are just English bitter styles transplanted to Ireland and not very good ones either. That's why stouts and whiskeys hold sway there.


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## Jack of all biers (24/11/16)

I reckon I have a published recipe for this one at home (might be just AG but I'll check) and get back to you this evening.


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## PhilipB (24/11/16)

I am taking on board all the suggestions and will spend some time this weekend tweeking the recipe.

I really appreciate the input. 

At the end of the day I think this will be a case of brewing a batch, performing comparisons and adjusting accordingly 

Will be a few weeks before I can get this one on the brew due to work and space at home. 

I will be posting pictures as I go


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## Gigantorus (24/11/16)

Phil,

That looks more like a partial-mash recipe and you may need that bigger boiler pot for the approx. 3.5kg of grain.

Apart from that looks good.

Cheers,

Pete


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## Droopy Brew (24/11/16)

There is only 400g or so of grains in there Pete. 3kg of liquid.

Eitherway, I would replace the Amber liquid with pale, knock the RB and Crystal 10 on the head and use as much Caraaroma as you need to get your colour. It adds a very nice red hue, beautiful taste and you wont need a lot. I love the stuff. Just an option anyway- will probably turn out better than the original.


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## Bribie G (24/11/16)

I was going to post just that, DB got in first.

I love a proper red beer (for example Cameron's Strongarm from County Durham, the red that Irish Red only _thinks_ it is) 





Whilst a lot of brewers will say "nah, just use Roast Barley", the use of Caraaroma will not only give you more red than the KGB but will also give a luscious caramelly smoothness.


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## PhilipB (24/11/16)

Droopy Brew said:


> There is only 400g or so of grains in there Pete. 3kg of liquid.
> 
> Eitherway, I would replace the Amber liquid with pale, knock the RB and Crystal 10 on the head and use as much Caraaroma as you need to get your colour. It adds a very nice red hue, beautiful taste and you wont need a lot. I love the stuff. Just an option anyway- will probably turn out better than the original.





Bribie G said:


> I was going to post just that, DB got in first.
> 
> I love a proper red beer (for example Cameron's Strongarm from County Durham, the red that Irish Red only _thinks_ it is)
> 
> ...


Seems like the options are there... 

Does the barley assist with the flavoring or just the color?


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## Bribie G (24/11/16)

The RB gives a bit of a toasty flavour as well but I wouldn't say that's a characteristic of Kilkenny.
On the other hand, Guinness is made with a base "pale" beer and an extract of roast barley and other stuff is injected into the brew prior to fermentation. This Guinness "syrup" is made in Dublin and shipped to all the Guinness overseas producers such as Lion in Australia, and is a bit of a "black box" item. It's always possible that Kilkenny gets a smaller shot of the elixir, but that's just speculation.


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## Jack of all biers (25/11/16)

Sorry, got busy last night. The recipe I have has not been tried by me, but is from the same book that Les (of the wheat family) got his Schneider Weisse recipe, Graham Wheeler's - Brew Classic European Beers at Home. I have tried many recipe's from this book and not one has been a bad representation of the commercial variety.

Malt Extract version;
23L @ OG 1048 or 11.9 Plato
3.45 kg liquid pale malt extract (3.5 kg is a nice round figure though. You could also convert this to Dried malt extract weight [calculations out there somewhere])
455 gm Crystal malt cold or hot steeped as per you preference. (Wheeler doesn't specify which crystal, but I'd use medium crystal or as suggested change this to cararoma which is a good one).

Challenger hops 25gm @ 90 min (or 60 min if you prefer as you won't gain much from the extra 30 min boil for an extract brew)
Northdown hops 25gm @ 90 min (as per above)
Fuggle hops 10gm @15 min 
Golding hops 10gm @ 5 min (you can use both Fuggles or EKG or just one of the two for these last two hop additions as per your preference, but I'm just puting the recipe as written).

Yeast as per your preference in a good quality Ale yeast. (1084 as you've suggested would be good)

~FG 1011 or 2.8 Plato
~IBU 33
~EBC 30
~ABV 4.9%

Note: Obviously the recipe is written for specific Hop A/A% so you should adjust the amounts for the recipe 33 IBU (or within a few points).

Use or change as per all the advise from those above until it tastes the real deal to you. That's the beauty of home brew :drinks:
Just make sure you use a good quality malt extract! but I'm probably telling you how to suck eggs..... so edit over


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## PhilipB (25/11/16)

Bribie G said:


> The RB gives a bit of a toasty flavour as well but I wouldn't say that's a characteristic of Kilkenny.
> On the other hand, Guinness is made with a base "pale" beer and an extract of roast barley and other stuff is injected into the brew prior to fermentation. This Guinness "syrup" is made in Dublin and shipped to all the Guinness overseas producers such as Lion in Australia, and is a bit of a "black box" item. It's always possible that Kilkenny gets a smaller shot of the elixir, but that's just speculation.


Thank you Bribie G. 

I might get a 6 pack of Kilkenny to do the comparisons with at home after I have brewed!


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## PhilipB (25/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> Sorry, got busy last night. The recipe I have has not been tried by me, but is from the same book that Les (of the wheat family) got his Schneider Weisse recipe, Graham Wheeler's - Brew Classic European Beers at Home. I have tried many recipe's from this book and not one has been a bad representation of the commercial variety.
> 
> Malt Extract version;
> 23L @ OG 1048 or 11.9 Plato
> ...


Thank you Jack. 

Looks like I might have to brew a few different versions and compare! 

I think the next step for me is to finalize a recipe, brew it and compare. 

Will up date this post with progress and welcome any other thoughts. 

Thank you so much everyone


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## PhilipB (28/11/16)

Hi guys and gals, 

Still tweeking my recipe. 

I have a question about the flaked barley. 

Does it need to be mashed or can I simply steep it with the rest on my grain?


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## Jack of all biers (28/11/16)

Mashed


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## PhilipB (28/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> Mashed


Hi Jack,

I have never mashed! What do I do? 

Philip


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## Gigantorus (28/11/16)

Droopy Brew said:


> There is only 400g or so of grains in there Pete. 3kg of liquid.
> 
> Eitherway, I would replace the Amber liquid with pale, knock the RB and Crystal 10 on the head and use as much Caraaroma as you need to get your colour. It adds a very nice red hue, beautiful taste and you wont need a lot. I love the stuff. Just an option anyway- will probably turn out better than the original.



Oops. Sorry about that chief  Right you are.


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## Gigantorus (28/11/16)

[SIZE=10.5pt]Phil,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]re mashing/steeping. Mashing is for base malts that need at least 60 mins of soaking in hot water to release the sugars. Steeping is for specialty grains that only need 30 mins to release the sugars.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Just buy a large grain bag from your local home brew shop. Then all you need to do is put the cracked grain in the grain bag and put in the pot and cover with hot tap water (around 65C to 75C temp). Something like 1.5 litres of water per 500grams of grain. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Then once the time has expired, lift the bag out and let the liquid drain back into the pot - give a very light squeeze once the liquid has nearly stopped running out of the grain bag (but not too hard - so say that will impart harsh flavours if squeezed too hard). Then discard the spent grain (keep the bag for next time). The boil the liquid to pasteurise for about 15 mins to 30 mins. During this time you can add hops (hops early to give bitterness and hop late in the boil to add flavour & aroma).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I do extract brewing and regularly add up to 1.0kg to 1.5kg of specialty grains to add extra flavour to the dry & liquid malt extract.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Pete[/SIZE]


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## Rocker1986 (28/11/16)

+1 for CaraAroma. Bloody beautiful malt and a large part of the flavour of my own house red ale. :wub:


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## PhilipB (28/11/16)

Gigantorus said:


> Phil,
> 
> re mashing/steeping. Mashing is for base malts that need at least 60 mins of soaking in hot water to release the sugars. Steeping is for specialty grains that only need 30 mins to release the sugars.
> 
> ...


Pete, 

My recipe calls for flaked barley. I understand it is normally mashed. 

Can I simply steep it or do I have to boil (mash) the flaked barley? 

Phil


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## Droopy Brew (28/11/16)

Boiling isnt mashing.
A mash is basically a steep but for a bit longer. Steep for an hour at between 64C and 70C and voila- you have mashed. Do this with all of your grains- if you are mashing the flaked barley you may as well throw the rest in with it.

Now regardless of whether you steep or mash, the resulting liquid will need to be boiled once the grains are removed.


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## PhilipB (28/11/16)

Droopy Brew said:


> Boiling isnt mashing.
> A mash is basically a steep but for a bit longer. Steep for an hour at between 64C and 70C and voila- you have mashed. Do this with all of your grains- if you are mashing the flaked barley you may as well throw the rest in with it.
> 
> Now regardless of whether you steep or mash, the resulting liquid will need to be boiled once the grains are removed.


Thank you appreciate this.


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## Jack of all biers (28/11/16)

Philip, you will need a base malt in addition to your flaked barley to conduct a mash. The reason for this is base malts like pale malt, Vienna, pils, etc contain enzymes that convert the starches in the grains (in your case flaked barley) into sugars. With specialTy grains the sugars were produced in their production and you are just rinsing them out as opposed to producing the sugars in a mash. For more info google how to brew by john Palmer for a better explanation of what can be steeped and what needs to be mashed.


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## Jack of all biers (28/11/16)

Now that I'm home and not on the mobile. Here's the link to the relevant chapter 12 about grains and chapter 13 is about steeping. 
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/barley-malt-defined 

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/other-grains-and-adjuncts tells you directly about flaked barley needing to be mashed with base malts. 

The whole manual is worth a read at some point, but pick out the relevant sections to your current methods and you will gain a far better understanding of brewing. There are lots of other brewing books, online literature etc that is also out there. Let the learning begin.....


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## PhilipB (28/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> Philip, you will need a base malt in addition to your flaked barley to conduct a mash. The reason for this is base malts like pale malt, Vienna, pils, etc contain enzymes that convert the starches in the grains (in your case flaked barley) into sugars. With specialTy grains the sugars were produced in their production and you are just rinsing them out as opposed to producing the sugars in a mash. For more info google how to brew by john Palmer for a better explanation of what can be steeped and what needs to be mashed.





Jack of all biers said:


> Now that I'm home and not on the mobile. Here's the link to the relevant chapter 12 about grains and chapter 13 is about steeping.
> http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/barley-malt-defined
> 
> http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/other-grains-and-adjuncts tells you directly about flaked barley needing to be mashed with base malts.
> ...


Thank you Jack. 

I think I will look at amending my recipie to remove the flaked barley as I am not sure my supplier will provide such a small quantity alone to do a mash with.


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## Jack of all biers (28/11/16)

No worries. I would leave it out, unless you want un-converted starch in your beer. I'm sure your supplier would sell you any quantity of any grain you want, but would you really want to do a partial-mash with 200gm flaked barley and say 1 kg pale malt anyway. Not sure the flaked barley would add anything that critical to your brew that couldn't be made up with a small amount of another specialty grain that you can steep. Maybe swap out the flaked barley for 50-100 gm of Carawheat (Weyermann EBC 110-140) for the added body and head retention qualities that flaked barley would give you if you mashed it. Or if you don't want the added colour of the carawheat, swap it for 200 gm of Carapils for the head retention. Meloiden malt (Weyermann) is also a good one for Irish reds as a steeping grain adding body, maltiness and a red colour.


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## PhilipB (30/11/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> No worries. I would leave it out, unless you want un-converted starch in your beer. I'm sure your supplier would sell you any quantity of any grain you want, but would you really want to do a partial-mash with 200gm flaked barley and say 1 kg pale malt anyway. Not sure the flaked barley would add anything that critical to your brew that couldn't be made up with a small amount of another specialty grain that you can steep. Maybe swap out the flaked barley for 50-100 gm of Carawheat (Weyermann EBC 110-140) for the added body and head retention qualities that flaked barley would give you if you mashed it. Or if you don't want the added colour of the carawheat, swap it for 200 gm of Carapils for the head retention. Meloiden malt (Weyermann) is also a good one for Irish reds as a steeping grain adding body, maltiness and a red colour.


Thank you Jack.

I have updated my recipe to remove the flaked barley. 

Cheers, 

Philip


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## PhilipB (30/11/16)

After much thinking, tweaking, questions, to mash or not to mash, ingredient supply / availability, I have come up with the following:

Ingredients:

0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (19.7 EBC) Grain
0.18 kg Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC) Grain

2.50 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract
0.35 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar

20.00 g Fuggles [4.50 %] - Boil 50.0 min
25.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.90 %] - Boil 45 min
25.00 g Challenger [7.50 %] - Boil 40.0 min
Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)
15.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 15 minutes

1.0 pkg Irish Ale Yeast (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast

The only reason I am throwing the dextrose in is I have that already

Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l

Estimated OG: 1.042

Estimated FG: 1.009

29 IBU
27 EBC

Will be steeping my grains. Est total wort liquid 5.5 litres

Some DME in the wort for hops boil with the dextrose topped up to 8 litres in the pot

EST ABV in the bottle 4.7% after priming


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## PhilipB (1/12/16)

Got my ingredients today 

Waiting for my brown beer to be done before I brew up this.

This is the first time I have designed a beer, so I am really excited to have the ingredients to brew it.

B)


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## Rocker1986 (1/12/16)

Good luck with it mate, hope it turns out well for you!


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## Gigantorus (18/12/16)

How did it turn out, Phil?

Cheers,
Pete


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## PhilipB (18/12/16)

Hi Pete,

I am waiting to clear out my brown beer from the fermenter and planning to put this on in the week between Christmas and new year. 

I am using a 100 litre techni ice esky as my cooling system and I have one fermenter that fits inside it. 

I am hanging to get this one on the boil.


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## Gigantorus (19/12/16)

No worries, and good luck with the brew, Phil.

I'm still tossing up as to what will be my first brew for 2017. English IPA or Black Ale with coffee & rum infusion. 

Cheers,
Pete


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## PhilipB (21/12/16)

Gigantorus said:


> No worries, and good luck with the brew, Phil.
> 
> I'm still tossing up as to what will be my first brew for 2017. English IPA or Black Ale with coffee & rum infusion.
> 
> ...


Bottled the brown beer. 

I am on track to do this one on Thursday after Christmas


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## Matplat (21/12/16)

Don't wait 3-6 months for your brown ale! should be tasting good after 1 month!


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## ianh (21/12/16)

Comment on your recipe.

Seems a lot of Roast Barley, could be because you have 591 EBC where as I use 1300 EBC. I'd check your value.

cheers


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## Gigantorus (21/12/16)

PhilipB said:


> Bottled the brown beer.
> 
> I am on track to do this one on Thursday after Christmas


Phil,

How did the brown beer taste during bottling?

I've decided I'll do a grapefruit IPA as my first brew for 2017. Will use the juice of 8 ruby grapefruit at flameout. Should be a hoot.

Happy Xmas to all.

Cheers,
Pete


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## PhilipB (29/12/16)

Brewed my Kilkenny clone today. Did a starter wort for the yeast yesterday. 
Had to adjust my recipe for 23 litre start gravity on the recipe was 1048.

Took SG and it read 1048


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## PhilipB (30/12/16)

Was a bit concerned I had stuffed with my yeast starter. Hadn't made one before and it looked very quiet in the container. 

This morning a nice froth on top and nicely bubbled glad wrap.


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## PhilipB (21/1/17)

Bottled today ABV 4.4%


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## Matplat (22/1/17)

Those are some serious labels! Good stuff mate.


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## PhilipB (23/1/17)

Matplat said:


> Those are some serious labels! Good stuff mate.


When I grab one I know what,when and how many! The label machine and tapes are expensive though


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## PhilipB (4/2/17)

Cracked open my Kilkenny style. Tastes great


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## Jack of all biers (4/2/17)

PhilipB said:


> Tastes great


That's the main thing. Well done on your first recipe :chug: Here's to many more :beer:


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## Quokka42 (19/2/17)

We all overcomplicate recipes when starting out, but yours looks pretty good and appears to have cleared well. I'd love to taste it!

While I had a bit of contact with CAMRA in the old days, and used to date a member, I believe beer is for drinking and if it tastes good and you can keep drinking it for several pints it's a good beer. So I actually like Kilkenny for a winter beer - a bit too heavy for summer when I might need a half dozen pints if working hard - and might try your recipe, though a partial mash. It's the right time of the year to lay down some winter beers, right?


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## PhilipB (19/2/17)

Thank you. I am opening a KKC once a fortnight to see how its aging in the bottle. I like to let my beers sit a minimum of a month before opening. 

A beer down in March would be good for June onwards.


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## PhilipB (19/2/17)

Thank you. I am opening a KKC once a fortnight to see how its aging in the bottle. I like to let my beers sit a minimum of a month before opening. 

A beer down in March would be good for June onwards.


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## Rocker1986 (19/2/17)

Some beers like hoppy pale ales I find are better fresh than aged because the hop character diminishes over time. I certainly wouldn't be hiding a pale ale away for 3 or 4 months before drinking it. There's not really a one size fits all for ageing beers though, some styles need longer than others to be at their best, and personal taste comes into it as well.


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