# Belgian Dark Strong With Dates



## jyo (29/10/11)

G'day, brewers. I have done an extensive search and have uncovered very little about brewing with dates. I'm not talking about "Guess what we are doing tonight, darling? Forget that Italian restaurant down the road, we're mashing a Belgian Dark Strong!" Ok, shit joke.

There is some info here- FOUR PEAKS

After some discussion here: Wierd ingredients I have really been thinking about trying a Belgian Dark Strong (a first for me, so this could go either way) loosely based from Brewing Classic Styles with an addition of 500-600 gm of dates. I am thinking of excluding the 450 gms of sugar in place of the dates.

Has anyone tried anything like this? If so, how did it turn out? I have the following planned for next fortnight.
Cheers in advance.

*Brown Date Belgian*
Belgian Dark Strong Ale

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 8.220
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.080 (P): 19.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.020 (P): 5.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 7.86 %
Colour (SRM): 21.1 (EBC): 41.6
Bitterness (IBU): 30.5 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 73
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

*Grain Bill*
----------------
6.000 kg Pilsner (72.99%)
1.000 kg Munich I (12.17%)
0.400 kg Special-B (4.87%)
0.350 kg Wheat Malt (4.26%)
0.250 kg Caramunich I (3.04%)
0.220 kg Caraaroma (2.68%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
80.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3.5 g/L)

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 67C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with Safbrew T-58 or 1762 Belgian Abbey II

*Notes*
----------------
600 gms dates, finely chopped, boiled for 10 minutes in 1.5 litres of water, strained and liquid added to the boil in the last 15 minutes.

Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## Nick JD (29/10/11)

Looks great. Are you after a Rochefort, or a Chimay type dark strong? 

With those yeasts you'll not get the esters and phenolics of Chimay Blue. 1214 is the Chimay yeast, I find it vastly different to 1762.


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## winkle (29/10/11)

jyo said:


> G'day, brewers. I have done an extensive search and have uncovered very little about brewing with dates. I'm not talking about "Guess what we are doing tonight, darling? Forget that Italian restaurant down the road, we're mashing a Belgian Dark Strong!" Ok, shit joke.
> 
> There is some info here- FOUR PEAKS
> 
> ...



The sugar is usually in there for the ABV increase and to dry out the beer thus making it more 'drinkable'. Any spicing in a BDS is usually at taste threshold levels so half a kilo of dates I think would ended up tasting just like dates ie. not very complex. If I were brewing it I'd keep them down to 100gm for the first batch to see if it added to the complexity rather than running roughshod over the other flavours. Interesting ingredient, I'd go with W1762.


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## jyo (29/10/11)

Nick JD said:


> Looks great. Are you after a Rochefort, or a Chimay type dark strong?
> 
> With those yeasts you'll not get the esters and phenolics of Chimay Blue. 1214 is the Chimay yeast, I find it vastly different to 1762.



I haven't tried Rochefort yet (I know, sad effort) but Chimay Blue is fantastic. 




winkle said:


> The sugar is usually in there for the ABV increase and to dry out the beer thus making it more 'drinkable'. Any spicing in a BDS is usually at taste threshold levels so half a kilo of dates I think would ended up tasting just like dates ie. not very complex. If I were brewing it I'd keep them down to 100gm for the first batch to see if it added to the complexity rather than running roughshod over the other flavours. Interesting ingredient, I'd go with W1762.



Cheers, Winkle. I was wondering whether the amount was too high. I might do a mini mash (1 kg of pils malt) and boil with some dates and hops just to get a feel for the flavour it will impart.


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## Nick JD (29/10/11)

jyo said:


> I haven't tried Rochefort yet (I know, sad effort) but Chimay Blue is fantastic.



1214. It's Chimay's yeast. 1762, while a great yeast just doesn't give those big esters. You could make an APA with 1762.


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## jyo (29/10/11)

Nick JD said:


> 1214. It's Chimay's yeast. 1762, while a great yeast just doesn't give those big esters. You could make an APA with 1762.



Looks like I'm leaning towards the 1214 then. Both descriptions of these yeasts sound excellent. 

Thanks for the advice, guys.


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## winkle (29/10/11)

jyo said:


> Looks like I'm leaning towards the 1214 then. Both descriptions of these yeasts sound excellent.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, guys.



1214 is pretty good, 1762 = more "figs" type esters rather than the expected raisons, plums etc. I've grown to prefer the 1762 but whatever :icon_cheers:


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## super_simian (30/10/11)

Perhaps rack onto some dates, to not lose the flavour - I'm not convinced they will come through in the boil...


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## manticle (30/10/11)

I'd avoid boiling fruit as you will give the beverage a stewed or cooked fruit flavour.

Secondary is where I would add any such flavour although you could try some in primary and some more in secondary if you think its needed.

I'm also disappointed that you haven't tried Rochefort - that shit is the shit. Get thee to a bottle dispensary.


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## jyo (30/10/11)

super_simian said:


> Perhaps rack onto some dates, to not lose the flavour - I'm not convinced they will come through in the boil...



Cheers, mate. Racking is not something I've tried before, but could be an option. 
The missus actually suggested dropping the chosen amount of finely chopped dates (I'm thinking of scaling it down to about 200gms after Winkle's suggestion) into a stocking and hang them into the boil. Decisions...Can't wait to give this a go. I'll update how it turns out.

Edit- just read your post Manticle.
I know, it's a beer that is high on my list and so many rave about it.
Taken on board your advice about stewed fruit. Cheers.


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## Spoonta (30/10/11)

mate come and see me I have some date syrup that you can have just make beer and add 4 or 5 later


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## jyo (30/10/11)

Spoonta said:


> mate come and see me I have some date syrup that you can have just make beer and add 4 or 5 later



Thanks, mate. Do you mean to add the syrup in the glass?


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## keifer33 (30/10/11)

Mmm sounds very tasty jyo almost tempted to knock up a small batch myself as an experimental beer.


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## Tanga (30/10/11)

I don't think boiling will be a problem with dates. Sticky Date Pudding dates are boiled, and it doesn't impart any of those stewed flavours.


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## jerchappy (30/10/11)

You might find this article interesting-

http://untamedbeer.com/2011/03/25/fermenta...ure-experiment/

about different flavours obtained with high and low temp range in fermenting an Ale with Belgian Ardennes Yeast.

He mentions some date flavours from a cooler fermentation with Belgian Ardennes Yeast. I wonder what sort of temperature would be best with the Chimay yeast?


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## jyo (30/10/11)

keifer33 said:


> Mmm sounds very tasty jyo almost tempted to knock up a small batch myself as an experimental beer.



Do it! It will still be super young, but we can compare at the case swap, mate. 




Tanga said:


> I don't think boiling will be a problem with dates. Sticky Date Pudding dates are boiled, and it doesn't impart any of those stewed flavours.



I was thinking that too, Tanga. But it may rear its head during fermentation? One way to find out I suppose.


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## keifer33 (30/10/11)

Dont know if it would be that soon jyo as I have no beer on tap at the moment...its very bleek here when you have to think about buying commercial beer again. Will probably be full and able to brew after the case swap so might have to compare early next year.


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## Gar (31/10/11)

I love the idea, sounds like it would taste spectacular.

Keep us updated on which path you take jyo & how it turns out, I'd love to have a go myself!


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## ged (3/11/11)

I've done something similar. The main problem with boiling is pectin extraction. You'll need pectinase enzyme, otherwise you'll have big time chill haze. Or drop it in some boiling water for 30 secs, then starsan for 30 secs, then add to secondary.

Ged


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## jyo (3/11/11)

Cheers for the replies, guys. I meant to update this yesterday. 
I emailed the head brewer at FourPeaks with a couple of questions and he was extremely helpful and quite happy if I shared his response on the forum, so here it is:

_
John,

Weve done several different applications of dates over the years, but the one that would be best for a homebrewer would be to pit the dates and discard them (very astringent), then add the dates to boiling water and breakdown the sugars into solution. Once youre satisfied with the sugar solution let it cool a bit and run it through some cheese cloth to strain it, and wring out the pulp for any remaining syrup. If you think theres more extract in the pulp you could certainly re-do the process with what remains. We found it was better to then boil just the syrup to evaporate away the water (this will change the color, though). You can then treat it at a simple extract and add it to your boiling wort.

As to percentages, Id say youd have to just experiment with the extract that you make. We used medjool dates (very prevalent around here) which are quite large and have a very high sugar content but any date will work.

The dates dont necessarily impart a huge flavor impact since theyre mostly fructose and will be consumed entirely by the yeast. But the cooking process can create some unique caramelized flavors which will carry over.

Good Luck!
(Name removed)

Four Peaks Brewing Co.

Tempe, Arizona_


And then this one- 
_
Good looking recipe. Interested in your water. Lots of potassium in dates, could be a plus though, if sulfites are present. Also, try to control your phenols with that yeast. (Wy 1762) We notice a slight, natural phenolic character with the caramelized date syrup, a Belgian strain can sometimes add to it.
And, sure, share if you like._


I am going to make the extract as he has outlined and add at the last 15 minutes of the boil. See how we go! Next weekend for this one.
Cheers.

EDIT- @ Ged- Where can I get pectinase enzyme, mate?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/11/11)

jyo said:


> Cheers for the replies, guys. I meant to update this yesterday.
> I emailed the head brewer at FourPeaks with a couple of questions and he was extremely helpful and quite happy if I shared his response on the forum, so here it is:
> 
> _
> ...


Nev 
I would like to try that when you are finished :icon_chickcheers:


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## Gar (3/11/11)

very cool, good luck


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## jyo (3/11/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Nev
> I would like to try that when you are finished :icon_chickcheers:



Only if it tastes like shit


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## CosmicBertie (3/11/11)

I dont know much about using the dates, but the Belgian Dark Strong I made a couple of months ago has quite a datey flavour to it. That might be the addition of the candy syrup though. I'd also recommend put in about 10g or crushed coriander seed into the boil at about 10mins, it just helps to add a certain something else to the taste.

Oh, and I used the Abbey Ale II, brewed at 18 for 3 days then ramped it up 1 degree a day for 10 days. Its a damn fine drop. Nice mix of banana, clove, caramel, toffee. lurvely.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/11/11)

jyo said:


> Only if it tastes like shit


Ok I will make a place in the cool room. :drinks:


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## winkle (3/11/11)

jyo said:


> Cheers for the replies, guys. I meant to update this yesterday.
> I emailed the head brewer at FourPeaks with a couple of questions and he was extremely helpful and quite happy if I shared his response on the forum, so here it is:
> 
> _
> ...



Hey, a good helpful reply. Top work Four Peaks :icon_cheers:
I'm planning to do something similar using Tamarind.


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## jyo (3/11/11)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> I dont know much about using the dates, but the Belgian Dark Strong I made a couple of months ago has quite a datey flavour to it. That might be the addition of the candy syrup though. I'd also recommend put in about 10g or crushed coriander seed into the boil at about 10mins, it just helps to add a certain something else to the taste.
> 
> Oh, and I used the Abbey Ale II, brewed at 18 for 3 days then ramped it up 1 degree a day for 10 days. Its a damn fine drop. Nice mix of banana, clove, caramel, toffee. lurvely.




Cheers. I'll leave the spices for this one though and just see what the dates can do.




winkle said:


> Hey, a good helpful reply. Top work Four Peaks :icon_cheers:
> I'm planning to do something similar using Tamarind.



Yeah, really helpful bloke.
mmm tamarinds...should be a nice tart finish.


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## mckenry (3/11/11)

Good stuff. Looking fwd to hearing how this goes.


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## jyo (3/11/11)

mckenry said:


> Good stuff. Looking fwd to hearing how this goes.
> View attachment 49770




:lol:


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## winkle (3/11/11)

jyo said:


> Yeah, really helpful bloke.
> mmm tamarinds...should be a nice tart finish.



Yeah and a bit sour, but they are going in a "oud bruin" sort of thing :icon_cheers:


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## Spoonta (3/11/11)

cant wait to try it


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## keifer33 (3/11/11)

Awesome work jyo. I will reap the rewards of your initiative and reasearch im my attempt.


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## jyo (3/11/11)

Spoonta said:


> cant wait to try it



Same as Nev, mate- only if they are crap :icon_cheers: 




keifer33 said:


> Awesome work jyo. I will reap the rewards of your initiative and reasearch im my attempt.



No worries, mate. I hope it works out.


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## jyo (13/11/11)

Finally brewed this last night. I ended up using 300 gm of packet dates (next time I will not be a scrooge and buy fresh dates and pit them myself). Also I didn't realise until after that packet dates contain 0.5% oil. I doubt this small amount will affect head retention though.

About 2 litres of date juice @ 1035 before caramelisation- 

Colour was amazing to start with. I only strained and sparged through paper towel (forgot to buy some cheese cloth) but the juice was crystal clear.





And after about 50 minutes of gentle simmer. I could have reduced it more but didn't want to push the love on my first go. The colour in the photo does not do it justice. This is a rich ruby red, amazing colour. And the taste- oh, man....this would go well on an icecream sundae. It has rich plum and obviously caramelised date flavours and aromas. There are some real similarities to the flavour when you caramelise wort... :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: 




So far, so good. Starter ready to go, about to chuck the cube in the fridge to get down to 18 and will pitch tonight.
I am really down on my targets and only achieved 1076, but no biggie. It'll still be the biggest beer I have made.
I ended up using wy1762 so as to allow the aroma of the dates to come through -if they do-

If this turns out well (I have a feeling it will) I am going to try some dates in an ESB. Maybe increase the amount of dates to 500gm and keep the crystal grains low and rely on the date syrup...

Cheers.


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## mikk (13/11/11)

Looks nice! I can almost smell it, just by looking at the photos...

I've only made 2 belgian dark strongs, the first of which was really nice to start with, but now 6 months on it's REALLY nice. Quite raisony/pruney/plummy, but that didn't start coming through til recently. I think dates would complement a dark strong perfectly, as long as it wasn't massively prominent.

Good luck, i'm sure it'll be a winner.


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## mikk (13/11/11)

Also, i meant to say that i would also be adding sugar. Dark candy sugar syrup really is an absolute must for a dark strong, for flavour, colour, & to make it more 'digestible' with a lower final gravity...


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## jyo (13/11/11)

mikk said:


> Also, i meant to say that i would also be adding sugar. Dark candy sugar syrup really is an absolute must for a dark strong, for flavour, colour, & to make it more 'digestible' with a lower final gravity...



Thanks, mikk. I don't have any, nor any extra cash to buy any atm, but may look at trying to make some myself if I get motivated. If I do get around to it, would you suggest adding at about day 3 or 4? Would table sugar suffice (not for flavour or colour, but to achieve the lower FG) ?

Cheers.


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## mikk (13/11/11)

Making some is always an option. Cheap, too! 

Yeah, wait til the ferment slows down a bit before adding the sugar. I've been told by people more knowledgeable than myself that it's good to not exceed the original SG of the wort without the sugar- ie- if the wort SG without sugar is 1.070 & you plan on adding .015 points worth of sugar, then best wait til the wort SG has fermented down to 1.055 (or lower) before adding the sugar.

Once you've tasted proper dark belgian candy sugar, you'll notice the flavour in most/all dark belgian beers. Personally, i reckon if you're not going to add dark candy sugar then i wouldn't add too much plain sugar. Your dark strong is at the lower end of what's considered a dark strong & kinda dubbel-like. For me, it should be all about the malt & flavour, & i wouldn't want too much alcohol warmth in it. just a bit of sugar to make it more drinkable.

Like i said though, i've only made 2 dark strongs so don't take all my advice as accepted wisdom. I HAVE, however, drunk a lot of Belgian beer to know what i like the taste of!


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## jyo (13/11/11)

mikk said:


> Making some is always an option. Cheap, too!
> 
> Yeah, wait til the ferment slows down a bit before adding the sugar. I've been told by people more knowledgeable than myself that it's good to not exceed the original SG of the wort without the sugar- ie- if the wort SG without sugar is 1.070 & you plan on adding .015 points worth of sugar, then best wait til the wort SG has fermented down to 1.055 (or lower) before adding the sugar.
> 
> ...



Cheers for the advice, mikk. I know, I'm spewing about the efficiency, it's taken it right to the lower end of the BDS guidelines... 
Unfortunately I think I'll skip the dark candy sugar now (just read it can take hours to get the right colour!) and just boil up about 500 gm of cane sugar (too much?) and add that when the gravity drops as you suggested. 
Cheers.


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## stl (19/11/11)

jyo said:


> Unfortunately I think I'll skip the dark candy sugar now (just read it can take hours to get the right colour!) and just boil up about 500 gm of cane sugar (too much?) and add that when the gravity drops as you suggested.



Hmm, won't you have gotten a similar thing out of the dates as you would have with dark candy sugar? It is mostly sugar after all, and you've caramelised it the same way... I'd be hesitant to add much more sugar (if any at all), but I'm no expert in these matters...

Looks tasty!


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## Braumoasta (19/11/11)

stl said:


> Hmm, won't you have gotten a similar thing out of the dates as you would have with dark candy sugar? It is mostly sugar after all, and you've caramelised it the same way... I'd be hesitant to add much more sugar (if any at all), but I'm no expert in these matters...



I also no expert on the matter, but isn't that like saying you might as well make mead out of sugar instead of honey, as honey is mostly sugar anyway? Dates would contain many chemicals which give them their specific flavour profile. You would hope that atleast some of these chemicals would be extracted and end up in the final beer.


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## stl (19/11/11)

Braumoasta said:


> I also no expert on the matter, but isn't that like saying you might as well make mead out of sugar instead of honey, as honey is mostly sugar anyway? Dates would contain many chemicals which give them their specific flavour profile. You would hope that atleast some of these chemicals would be extracted and end up in the final beer.



Right you are, but I think you might have missed my point (sorry if it was unclear). I didn't mean to suggest using the sugary date syrup extracty stuff as a substitute for sugar to make candy syrup...

What I meant was, if the main reason you add candy sugar to the brew is to help dry it out and increase "drinkability" and the second reason is to add those nice caramel flavours, then both goals should have been achieved by the caramelised date syrup anyway (which is mostly simple, highly fermentable sugar if I understand correctly). So there might not be anything more to gain by adding more sugar (candy or otherwise), and indeed you might overdo it...


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## jyo (20/11/11)

stl said:


> Right you are, but I think you might have missed my point (sorry if it was unclear). I didn't mean to suggest using the sugary date syrup extracty stuff as a substitute for sugar to make candy syrup...
> 
> What I meant was, if the main reason you add candy sugar to the brew is to help dry it out and increase "drinkability" and the second reason is to add those nice caramel flavours, then both goals should have been achieved by the caramelised date syrup anyway (which is mostly simple, highly fermentable sugar if I understand correctly). So there might not be anything more to gain by adding more sugar (candy or otherwise), and indeed you might overdo it...




I actually had this in mind when I added some white sugar last night. I am down from 1076 to 1025 in under a week (thankfully my starter _was_ healthy after all).
I decided to only add 380 gm of white sugar boiled in about 300 mls of water, cooled and funneled in. I wondered at the time whether it could have done without it or not.

I am sure that the caramelised flavours will come through -the samples so far suggest this- but time will tell!
Cheers.


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## Josh (20/11/11)

The point about adding sugar to "dry out" a Belgian beer seems a little confused here. You already have fermenting wort which has a potential FG already set through mash schedule and yeast etc. eg without adding more sugar it would finish at 1.010. By adding some sugar you won't get it down to 1.008. It will still only get to 1.010 because the unfermentables are already in the beer.

So if your target is an OG of 1.070 and a dry Belgian style beer. You shouldn't brew an all malt wort up to 1.070, then add sugar to to dry it out. You should brew a 1.070 wort which already includes your simple sugars. So the malt portion of the wort will only give you about 1.063 before sugar additions bump it up to 1.070 (numbers for example only).


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## jyo (24/11/11)

Cheers, Josh, taken on board.

It has come down from 1081 (which is accounting for the addition of 380 g sugar at day 5) and has been sitting at 1020 for 2 days now. I was expecting it to come down below this, so I will leave this until Sunday before I check the SG. Ferment has been on the money at 19' the whole time.

I thought I had some fusels when I tasted the other night, though after a sample last night, the alcohols taste more 'prickly' which is a relief. 

As this is my first big beer (apart from 2 tins of goop and 1.5 kilos of sugar fermented at 28' in my kit days  ) I am wondering-
If the reading stays stable at 1020 for another 3 or 4 days, should I accept the attenuation and CC for a few days, then bottle
Or should I be thinking about rousing the yeast to promote droppping a few more points
Or skip the CC and just leave it sit on the cake for another week. I really don't want to rack to a cube...

Cheers.


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## drtomc (24/11/11)

I'd hope it would go lower. I just skimmed back through the thread, but I missed what mash temperature you used.

Assuming it was on the low end, I'd advocate rouse/rack and raise the temperature a degree or two and wait.

Which yeast did you go with in the end?

T.


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## jyo (24/11/11)

Cheers, Dr 
I mashed a 67' as per Jamil's instructions. I ended up going with a super fresh pack of 1762 and made a 1 litre starter, pitched it after 3 days. The esters are subtle, yet fantastic...


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## winkle (24/11/11)

jyo said:


> Cheers, Dr
> I mashed a 67' as per Jamil's instructions. I ended up going with a super fresh pack of 1762 and made a 1 litre starter, pitched it after 3 days. The esters are subtle, yet fantastic...



Sounds good to me. But I'd try to rouse it and get down to 1.018-ish over a few days.
I did a wheat stout with 1762 that stalled at 1.020 so it may be knackered.


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## jyo (24/11/11)

winkle said:


> Sounds good to me. But I'd try to rouse it and get down to 1.018-ish over a few days.
> I did a wheat stout with 1762 that stalled at 1.020 so it may be knackered.



Cheers, Winkle. I'll give her a swirl later on and then tomorrow and see how it goes over the weekend.


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## jyo (5/12/11)

Just to update this. 
I roused once a day for three days and had no gravity drop, so crashed it down to 2' for a few days. 

Bottled yesterday after 3 weeks in primary. It tasted fantastic in the samples.

Now, to wait.....I have to try it at 2 months to see where it's heading.

Cheers.


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## mikk (6/12/11)

The waiting's the hard part! Does it taste 'datey', or does it taste beery with a hint of dates?!


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## jyo (6/12/11)

mikk said:


> The waiting's the hard part! Does it taste 'datey', or does it taste beery with a hint of dates?!




It was tasting really complex -which is to be expected I suppose- but I was getting some aroma in the glass and flavour mid sip. So just a hint...

When I told Mrs jyo I was planning on aging some of this for a couple of years she just rolled her eyes and smiled.....


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## Spoonta (30/12/11)

howed it turn out mate


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## vykuza (4/1/12)

You've got me with this recipe jyo. I'll be brewing this tomorrow, using Saphire in stead of Saaz and medjool dates that are so sticky you could plaster them to a wall. Fermenting with the Leuven Ale Yeast and keeping it low and slow during the ferment.

Any last minute hints or tips?


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## jyo (4/1/12)

Spoonta said:


> howed it turn out mate



Mate, I'll try to get around to yours on the weekend with a sample. It's only 1 month old but I tried one on NYE. It's tasting really promising, a little bit on the cloying side, but I'm hoping this will mellow with age. I think it's going to be a good one.




Nick R said:


> You've got me with this recipe jyo. I'll be brewing this tomorrow, using Saphire in stead of Saaz and medjool dates that are so sticky you could plaster them to a wall. Fermenting with the Leuven Ale Yeast and keeping it low and slow during the ferment.
> 
> Any last minute hints or tips?


I can't comment on the yeast though I think using the fresh dates as you have will be heaps better. As far as the date caramelisation process as outlined above- it worked a treat.
Seriously, if I brew this again I will probably drop the Special B to 300gms or so. With the caraaroma in there too, there are some really strong flavours (which is typical). Then again at 1 month it's hard to tell really where it's going to end up though 1st taste is pretty positive. 

I plan to brew an ESB soon using about 2.5% caraaroma and 400 gms of caramelised dates with 1469...

Good luck!


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## vykuza (4/1/12)

jyo said:


> Mate, I'll try to get around to yours on the weekend with a sample. It's only 1 month old but I tried one on NYE. It's tasting really promising, a little bit on the cloying side, but I'm hoping this will mellow with age. I think it's going to be a good one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good stuff, thanks jyo. I'm caramelising the date juice as I type, though I can tell you these dates have not come through with the clear syrup as in your photos, but a much muddier mixture. I strained through a tealtowel as the paper filter I was using wouldn't even let it drip through with all the particulate matter. It smells divine though!


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## jyo (4/1/12)

Nick R said:


> Good stuff, thanks jyo. I'm caramelising the date juice as I type, though I can tell you these dates have not come through with the clear syrup as in your photos, but a much muddier mixture. I strained through a tealtowel as the paper filter I was using wouldn't even let it drip through with all the particulate matter. It smells divine though!



Wait til you taste it! 
Hope it goes well, mate.


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## vykuza (17/1/12)

Finally pitched this today. What a wort! The date aroma really comes through in the wort, and it smells like an amazing combo of dates, dark fruits, molasses and rich malt. I would drink it like this if I could. 

I missed my gravity targets by 10%, so will be adding some white sugar during ferment to shore up the alc content and hopefully cut some of the dextrines from all the crystal malts. I pitched it on a yeastcake from Wyeast Leuven pale ale, which has just finished fermenting a blonde to get the cell count up. 

The blonde came out with a character very similar to the one I get from the French Saison yeast, except rather than being a bit one-dimensional, it's backed up with a HUGE apricot and "stonefruit" flavour. I can't help thinking that it will go very well with the dates and raison-y malt bill. It also chewed the blonde down to 1.007 -from 1.053 mashed at 65c - so it's not afraid to attenuate. Apparent attenuation is 86%.

Will report back in a few days with a prelim sneaky hydro tube taste test.


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## jyo (21/1/12)

Sounds great, Nick. 
Well, I've tried a couple of these now. I think having your FG come down a few more points lower than mine will definitely make it a better beer. It's 7 weeks in the bottle and the flavours are starting to come together now. The caramelisation of the dates are there. Mine is a bit undercarbed for the style due to underpriming, but I can live with that. This is a complex beer! Bit of a chill haze problem, but that's probably the brewer, not the dates 

I regret not bottling this in stubbies. Getting through a longneck of 8.5% is great, but....well... :icon_drunk: 
I'm really looking forward to how this rounds out by Christmas. 
Here 'tis!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/1/12)

jyo said:


> Sounds great, Nick.
> Well, I've tried a couple of these now. I think having your FG come down a few more points lower than mine will definitely make it a better beer. It's 7 weeks in the bottle and the flavours are starting to come together now. The caramelisation of the dates are there. Mine is a bit undercarbed for the style due to underpriming, but I can live with that. This is a complex beer! Bit of a chill haze problem, but that's probably the brewer, not the dates
> 
> I regret not bottling this in stubbies. Getting through a longneck of 8.5% is great, but....well... :icon_drunk:
> ...


Looks totally Gay good, trust you.
Nev


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/1/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Looks totally Gay good, trust you.
> Nev


Sorry
I was just saying to Cess how Ab Fab it looks, I have a bit of PMS this morning.
Nev


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## jyo (21/1/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Sorry
> I was just saying to Cess how Ab Fab it looks, I have a bit of PMS this morning.
> Nev



Just for that I'm gonna bring a couple of bottles of it tomorrow and you will have to drink some..."Some" is a substance not yet indicated.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/1/12)

jyo said:


> Just for that I'm gonna bring a couple of bottles of it tomorrow and you will have to drink some..."Some" is a substance not yet indicated.


Thats what I was hoping for, mission complete  Extra big sausage for you tomorrow  
Nev


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## jyo (21/1/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Thats what I was hoping for, mission complete  Extra big sausage for you tomorrow
> Nev



NOT AGAIN!


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## vykuza (23/1/12)

Nick R said:


> Finally pitched this today. What a wort! The date aroma really comes through in the wort, and it smells like an amazing combo of dates, dark fruits, molasses and rich malt. I would drink it like this if I could.
> 
> I missed my gravity targets by 10%, so will be adding some white sugar during ferment to shore up the alc content and hopefully cut some of the dextrines from all the crystal malts. I pitched it on a yeastcake from Wyeast Leuven pale ale, which has just finished fermenting a blonde to get the cell count up.




I think I've screwed the pooch on this one. Hydro samples were tasting very good and promising before the sugar addition. One 500g addition later I have a fermenter full of hot alcohols and solvent flavours, really unpleasant. Brew never got above 21c, but I should have split up that addition over multiple days. I'm going to keg it (rather than bottling in belgs and corking as I intended) and leave it a few months, see if it comes good.


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## jyo (24/1/12)

Nick R said:


> I think I've screwed the pooch on this one. Hydro samples were tasting very good and promising before the sugar addition. One 500g addition later I have a fermenter full of hot alcohols and solvent flavours, really unpleasant. Brew never got above 21c, but I should have split up that addition over multiple days. I'm going to keg it (rather than bottling in belgs and corking as I intended) and leave it a few months, see if it comes good.



Nick, I really can't confidently comment on brewing Belgians like this due to my inexperience but I found the same thing after the sugar addition. I thought I had screwed it completely with fusel alcohols in the hydro samples. 
I shared a couple of these with a few brewers on the weekend (7 weeks old) and there were no solvents at all. The alcohol was very subtle. Just hoping yours is the same, mate.

I'm not touching any more for a few months now


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## bkmad (24/1/12)

jyo said:


> Nick, I really can't confidently comment on brewing Belgians like this due to my inexperience but I found the same thing after the sugar addition. I thought I had screwed it completely with fusel alcohols in the hydro samples.
> I shared a couple of these with a few brewers on the weekend (7 weeks old) and there were no solvents at all. The alcohol was very subtle. Just hoping yours is the same, mate.
> 
> I'm not touching any more for a few months now



I've had the same on the one dark strong I've brewed. At bottling it tasted like metho. A few weeks in the bottle it was much improved and a few months in the bottle there is next to no fusel alcohol. Just give it time and it should come good.

It must be something about these Belgian yeasts because I brewed and IPA last year with US05 that ended up getting a bit of fusel alcohol and it never went away.


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## vykuza (24/1/12)

Thanks guys, you've put me at ease a little. I've very little experience with stronger belgian beers. I've had fusels in hot ferments before that never went away, but I guess I'll sit on this one and see how it goes. I'm going to give it another few days on the yeast to finish up and keg and forget.


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## brettprevans (24/1/12)

it may have just been alc without it being hot alc. a little bit of a stir through bottling/keging and it might have 'blended' it back in. and yes big beers, as with dark beers, time works wonders. it should let it soften, flavours meld, alc to die off a little (providing it not alctual fusil alc).


Nick R said:


> I think I've screwed the pooch on this one. Hydro samples were tasting very good and promising before the sugar addition. One 500g addition later I have a fermenter full of hot alcohols and solvent flavours, really unpleasant. Brew never got above 21c, but I should have split up that addition over multiple days. I'm going to keg it (rather than bottling in belgs and corking as I intended) and leave it a few months, see if it comes good.


yeah 500g might have been a bit much. nothig wrong with gradual feeding. nothing wrong with kegging it, cold condition, then put into bottles with a cpbf or just pour it straight out of the tap. thats way you ensure consistant carbonation, which is something my bigger beers have had issues with (ie some bottles carb better than others). so all my big beers i now keg, then bottle (if im bottling)

RDWHAHB


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## vykuza (24/1/12)

Cheers, I guess I'll just wait and see!

Time to buy more kegs I think...


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## manticle (18/3/12)

My notes from the bottle JYO sent to me.

Pours cloudy brown with a fairly dense white head that lingers. Aroma of date evident just on opening the bottle. Slight alcohol aroma and yeast phenolics.
Mouthfeel moderate/full, slightly creamy but higher carb pulls back from the creaminess somewhat.
Flavour of dried fruit, some warming alcohol (not unpleasant, not fuselly but definitely present), subtle Belgian yeast flavours, nice balance.

A pretty damn nice beer mate. Definite Belgian dubbel/dark strong character, nice complexity and will probably develop more with age. Good to see such a great head on it - I doubt we'll get that with our rochefort tribute when I consider what happened to the dubbel head*. Significant lingering head and lacing remained after I left the glass sitting for 20 minutes or so too. Nicely rich and warming - would be great as a winter warmer.


*Refers to a beer I bottled separately from a main batch of Belgian dark strong that is currently bulk aging - had cacao nibs and something I've forgotten added to it and traded with JYO for this beer.


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## jyo (18/3/12)

Cheers, Manticle.


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## vykuza (19/4/12)

Well, it's been three months (nearly) in the keg, and my version of this is still tasting like paint thinner.

Strong fusel/hot solventy flavours that I've had before from hot/stressed ferments. Tasting around that, the beer has a huge amount of promise. Date has come through beautifully, and it has a nice, strong raisin/dried fig going on as well, with a solid malt background. The final gravity is good, and if I hadn't screwed up the sugar addition/ferment then it would have been tops.

This keg is destined for the back lawn, but the recipe is a winner and I'll be attempting it again (without the brain explosions). Jyo, there's a bottle here I can post you if you want, but it's probably a waste of time.


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## jyo (19/4/12)

That is bloody disappointing, Nick  Lawn food sucks...

Mine are still drinking very nicely, I'm aiming to down one next week sometime to sample again.

Once again, commiserations, mate.


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## machalel (20/4/12)

bugger 

This one sounded really good.


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## jyo (21/11/12)

Just to update on this. 

It scraped in with a sneaky fourth place at the Nationals this year. Some good comments from the judges, yet was lacking the typical Belgian esters, probably due to my choice of yeast of 1762. Anyway, pretty happy. No bottles left, though. 

Cheers.


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