# Candi Sugar vs Syrup



## Kanetoad23

Hi All,

I have a Trippel receipie that calls for 1kg of Candi Sugar. 

I can only find Candi Syrup available from my home brew store, would this be equal to 1lt of Candi Syrup?

Thanks

Kanetoad


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## manticle

Pale candy for a tripel.

Or you can just use dextrose. Dark candy syrup is unique in flavour profile and I will always cop the expense for a dubbel or belgian dark but for pale, i'd save the money.


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## iralosavic

1L of syrup would equal around 1500g of sugar by my count.

EDIT: Also, I agree with Manticle. A triple is essentially a really strong Belgian Golden Ale, the candi sugar is more about fermentability than complexity of flavour like it is in a Dubbel or BSA.


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## Nick JD

Syrup has water in it, so will be heavier than the same sugar-content of dried.

I'd go with 1.3 (wet) = dry.


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## manticle

@iralosavic: Doesn't it go the other way? Syrup is sugar + water so you need more syrup to equal the same dry.


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## iralosavic

manticle said:


> @iralosavic: Doesn't it go the other way? Syrup is sugar + water so you need more syrup to equal the same dry.


haha I should totally have a moderator follow me around and correct my math on days when my brain isn't working  either way the fact that it isn't 1:1 was established, which is important!


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## Kanetoad23

Thanks guys, that has cleared it up for me


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## manticle

Yes worthwhile point.


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## iralosavic

I think it just made it more confusing for me - Ross told me the 500ml candi syrups he has weigh 750g (you can see so when you add one to your cart). Surely the bottle itself doesn't contribute the extra 250g? I also picked this up from the Leffe Radiuese recipe going around: "
*[SIZE=10pt]370g Dark Candi Syrup (half a 500ml bottle)".[/SIZE]*


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## Nick JD

If the 500ml bottle contains 750g of candy syrup then it has an SG of 1.500.

If the 500ml volume weighed 9.65kg then you could charge the same price as gold for it, as gold has an SG of 19.3


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## iralosavic

Nick if you're trying to make my brain explode then you're doing a good job. Seriously though if the Radieuse calls for 370g, should I just chuck the whole bottle in? Is there a formula going around? I've read that sugar syrup is created by adding 25ml water for every 50g sugar... Which puts both our ideas out the window. Maybe ill revisit when math brain is back.


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## emnpaul

It comes down to what Nick said in post 10 of this thread. 1ml of pure water has an SG of 1.000. 1ml=1g. One millilitre of candy syrup with an SG of 1.500 would weigh 1.5g. Therefore 250ml of candy syrup at sG1.500 weighs 375g.


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## iralosavic

emnpaul said:


> It comes down to what Nick said in post 10 of this thread. 1ml of pure water has an SG of 1.000. 1ml=1g. One millilitre of candy syrup with an SG of 1.500 would weigh 1.5g. Therefore 250ml of candy syrup at sG1.500 weighs 375g.


Thanks for clarifying, although how do we know what gravity the syrup is - coming up with the correct answer seems to be hinging on this detail. And surely Nick and others use the stuff CB sells...


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## emnpaul

The specs for the candi syrups are listed on the CB website in brix/dry extract. There is a handy conversion program here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/

If a syrup was listed at 77.5-78.5 brix, average 78, it has an SG of 1.41. Which is not to say that all those sugars are fermentable by brewers yeast. What percentage is fermentable I do not know.


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## iralosavic

I would wager that it would be very close to 100% fermentable. So simply divide dry sugar quantity by factor of 1.4 to get appropriate syrup quantity. 375g = 265ml. In the OPs case, if he were using the same syrup, he would need 715ml. See this is back to being the reverse of the general consensus again...


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## Nick JD

The dark stuff from CB is supposed to be 100% fermentable, but why would you use it if it was?! It needs to be less than 100% if it's to leave behind some deliciousness.

What it does do is stains the trub really dark - _if you pour it in to the fermenter _- which is why I prefer to pour it in the boil, as I think it just goes straight to the bottom of the trub and isn't fully utilised.

If a recipe calls for 370g of dry sugar then 500ml of 1.410 syrup is almost perfect.


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## iralosavic

Nick JD said:


> The dark stuff from CB is supposed to be 100% fermentable, but why would you use it if it was?! It needs to be less than 100% if it's to leave behind some deliciousness.
> 
> What it does do is stains the trub really dark - _if you pour it in to the fermenter _- which is why I prefer to pour it in the boil, as I think it just goes straight to the bottom of the trub and isn't fully utilised.
> 
> If a recipe calls for 370g of dry sugar then 500ml of 1.410 syrup is almost perfect.


So I'm STILL doing the equation backwards? I'm hoping it will click soon when my hangover lifts...


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## manticle

Forget the actual numbers for the moment - the principle is simple. 

If I have 500g of dry sugar, I have 500g total weight.

If I add 500mL of water to that 500g I have 500g sugar PLUS the weight of 500mL water so to get the same amount of sugar as 500g dry you need more liquid.

Same as when using LME as opposed to DME.


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## chefeffect

There is also this to think about:

"Density = mass/volume (ρ=m/V). So V=m/ρ and has units (kilograms)/(kilograms per cubic meter)=cubic meter. 

If you are dealing with other units, say pounds, as a unit of weight, 'then 1 kg corresponds to 2.21 lb at sea level in the sense that the weight of 1 kg is 2.21 lb at sea level. Similarly 1 lb corresponds to 453.6 g and 1 oz to 28.35 g' (Beiser, A. Physics, 5th ed, Addison Wesley, 1992)"

Weight and volume is not as simple to calculate as the density and sea level change the equation.

Edit: volume instead of mass whoops


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## Edak

People are saying that you should use 500ml because it has the weight of water but they are talking volume not weight, which is incorrect. 500ml might weight 750g,which is way too much. 
Perhaps 500g of syrup is more along the lines of correct rather than 500ml.
You should weigh your syrup before you use it, that way you compare weight to weight rather than weight to volume. Put a small container on scales, tare the scale, pour in until you have correct weight, use... If you are concerned about the syrup sticking to your container when using then (if during the boil) dip the container into the wort to get it to wash out.


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## manticle

Edak said:


> People are saying that you should use 500ml because it has the weight of water but they are talking volume not weight, which is incorrect.


Are they?


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## Parks

manticle said:


> If I have 500g of dry sugar, I have 500g total weight.
> 
> If I add 500mL of water to that 500g I have 500g sugar PLUS the weight of 500mL water so to get the same amount of sugar as 500g dry you need more liquid.


In this situation it's worth noting that if you add 500g of sugar to 500ML/g water (500ML = 500g at 4 deg 1 atmosphere) you'll end up with 1kg in 750ML (estimating).


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## Nick JD

If you can answer this you understand the situation:

If something weighs 1kg and occupies 1L, it has an SG of 1.000

If you add 500g of sugar to this 1L, the sugar will dissolve but the volume will remain the same at 1L.

Now the 1L will weigh 1.5kg.

What's its SG?


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## Parks

Nick JD said:


> If you add 500g of sugar to this 1L, the sugar will dissolve but the volume will remain the same at 1L.


When dissolving sugar into water it this is not true. Sugar will increase the volume of water.


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## beerdrinkingbob

Nick JD said:


> If you can answer this you understand the situation:
> 
> If something weighs 1kg and occupies 1L, it has an SG of 1.000
> 
> If you add 500g of sugar to this 1L, the sugar will dissolve but the volume will remain the same at 1L.
> 
> Now the 1L will weigh 1.5kg.
> 
> What's its SG?


PICK ME, PICK ME......1.500


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## GalBrew

Parks said:


> When dissolving sugar into water it this is not true. Sugar will increase the volume of water.


This is true, 1kg of sugar into 1L water will not equal 1L of 1g/ml (100% w/v) sucrose solution.


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## Nick JD

Parks said:


> When dissolving sugar into water it this is not true. Sugar will increase the volume of water.


Tell me by how much.

1L of water with 500g of sugar dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

Also, as an aside - tell me the saturation point of sucrose in water.


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## Parks

Nick JD said:


> Tell me by how much.
> 
> 1L of water with 500g of sugar dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.
> 
> Also, as an aside - tell me the saturation point of sucrose in water.


LOL - you really have no idea? I take it you've never actually dissolved any significant amount of sugar in water h34r: 

It depends on a lot of factors. What form/purity of sugar?

Did you even do a google search before posting?

Here are a few links just to get you started.

http://chanticleersociety.org/forums/p/1480/8574.aspx
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sugar_still_have_volume_when_it_is_dissolved_in_water


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## GalBrew

I frequently make up 30% sucrose solutions (sometimes using white sugar if we run out of the good stuff) to use as a cryoprotectant at work. If you mix 300g of white sugar/sucrose into 1L of water (or in my case buffer) and mix it on a stir plate, you end up with more than 1L. This is a rookie mistake made by new people in the lab. To make up 1L of 30% sucrose you dissolve 300g of sucrose into 500ml (give or take) of your water/buffer and once it is disolved make the solution up to 1L. A subtle difference, but different nonehteless.


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## Nick JD

Parks said:


> LOL - you really have no idea? I take it you've never actually dissolved any significant amount of sugar in water h34r:
> 
> It depends on a lot of factors. What form/purity of sugar?
> 
> Did you even do a google search before posting?
> 
> Here are a few links just to get you started.
> 
> http://chanticleersociety.org/forums/p/1480/8574.aspx
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sugar_still_have_volume_when_it_is_dissolved_in_water


Thanks, but you haven't told me the answer.

Here's your question again with your added parameters:

1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

I look forward to the answer since _you _know how to calculate it.

And we can all look forward to knowing that an expert has shown us how far off 1L the volume will be when 500g of sucrose is dissolved in it.

Thanks for doing this for us.


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## Parks

Nick JD said:


> Thanks, but you haven't told me the answer.
> 
> Here's your question again with your added parameters:
> 
> 1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.
> 
> I look forward to the answer since _you _know how to calculate it.


I don't know nor care at this point. I know, for a fact, that it is greater than 1L. I have, on many, many, occasions added sugar to water and any amount of searching will tell you the same thing.


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## Nick JD

Parks said:


> I don't know nor care at this point. I know, for a fact, that it is greater than 1L. I have, on many, many, occasions added sugar to water and any amount of searching will tell you the same thing.


Oh.

What about this question then:

What will the be the total solution volume if I add 100ml of water to 100ml of pure ethanol?

Also, if anyone can answer the above question:

1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

...that'd be great. It's an interesting thing from a homebrewer's POV.


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## stakka82

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Yeah vol will definitely be greater than 1 litre, no idea by how much though, and also don't care.


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## Parks

Nick JD said:


> What will the be the total solution volume if I add 100ml of water to 100ml of pure ethanol?


Very close to, but not quite 200ml.




Nick JD said:


> 1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.
> 
> ...that'd be great. It's an interesting thing from a homebrewer's POV.


In reality I think the most important thing is if you want a concentration of 500g to 1L to use water to fill up to the 1L and not add 1L to sugar.


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## GalBrew

Ok then,
I just got up from my desk and disolved 30g of lab grade sucrose into 100ml of distilled water and mixed it up on a stirplate. The volume of the resultant solution was (as far as my 250ml measuring cylinder could tell) was 109ml......

.......(waits for applause)...... :super:


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## Nick JD




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## Nick JD

GalBrew said:


> Ok then,
> I just got up from my desk and disolved 30g of lab grade sucrose into 100ml of distilled water and mixed it up on a stirplate. The volume of the resultant solution was (as far as my 250ml measuring cylinder could tell) was 109ml......
> 
> .......(waits for applause)...... :super:


Cool. So 300g of sugar in 1L of water will have a volume of 1090ml?

Can you do 50g?

And make us all some coffee?


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## GalBrew

I assume so, I would imagine the relationship is linear with regards to the volume occupied by a unit of sucrose. I don't know how to calculate the final volume of solutions (all we really care about is molarity, and we make the solution up to a desired volume rather than adding the desired volume), I just know this from experience.

I would have done a larger volume, but we didn't have enough sucrose left in the bottle.


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## Nick JD

I learned that you can only get 211g of sugar in 100g of water.


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## Parks

Nick JD said:


> 1L of water with 500g of sugar dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.


Apologies for my stupidity in probably not reading this correctly.

I read this as you saying "add 500g to 1L of water" when you could easy actually and probably have meant exactly what I later said.

As you were.

Answer - 1L.
:blink:


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## Nick JD

And that on the peak of the Mount Stupid there's very little standing room.


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## Nick JD

Parks said:


> Apologies for my stupidity in probably not reading this correctly.
> 
> I read this as you saying "add 500g to 1L of water" when you could easy actually and probably have meant exactly what I later said.
> 
> As you were.
> 
> Answer - 1L.
> :blink:


It's more than 1L.

I wanted to know by how much.


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## GalBrew

If you heat the water, you will be able to get a bit more in as the saturation point will increase with temp. Here is a saturation point graph I found:


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## Parks

Nick JD said:


> It's more than 1L.
> 
> I wanted to know by how much.


Not if you asked how much volume in a Litre of water which already had 500g of sugar dissolved in it


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## Nick JD

Parks said:


> Not if you asked how much volume in a Litre of water which already had 500g of sugar dissolved in it


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## stakka82

Ripped off the net but vaguely remember this from high school chem:

as the crystal structure of the sugar breaks down (dissolves), the individual sugar molecules - which are still as they were or your coffee would not taste sweeter - can fit in between (or vice-versa) the water molecules so that they do not take up as much space in the solution as they did in their crystal (solid) form. Or, as said above: volume is more than the solvent alone, but less than adding the volume of solute and solvent together with no reference to dissolving. For sugar and water, no combination should result in no volume change or a perfectly equivalent volume change.


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## Edak

At what temperature? I just thought I would throw in another variable.... 

Nick, why so rude today?


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## Nick JD

Edak said:


> Nick, why so rude today?


Today?


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## Edak

Yeah, the day after yesterday and before tomorrow..


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## emnpaul

Not sure if you're still interested in the answer but based on GalBrew's experiment and the fairly unscientific assumption that the relationship is linear up to the threshold of insolubility one gram of sugar dissolved in water will add 0.3ml to the volume of said solution. So: 


Nick JD said:


> 1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of 1150ml.


That is just an assumption though. It would be much better to have a range of accurate measurements and be able to interpolate the data to give an answer rather than assume and extrapolate. But ballpark, 1150ml.

Edit: I did a bit more digging and came up with this: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110618005518AA2Pl1D

Running a few calculations on the data contained in that link, increase in volume divided by mass of added sucrose, yields an increase in volume of 0.625ml/g and 0.635ml/g for the two samples. Given that the samples span a reasonable range of densities it can be inferred that the increase in volume is linear up to or at least until nearing the point of solubility and that GalBrew's measurements further complicate the answer given that distilled water and laboratory grade sucrose was used by GalBrew and we don't know whether the experiment on Yahoo Answers used tap water and/or table sugar. 

The actual answer, in the home brewing environment may be closer to 1315ml.


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## iralosavic

Holy shit guys. So do we have actually have a conclusion on calculating the equivalent volumes when substituting dry for liquid or vice versa?


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## Edak

no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.

take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.


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## felten

Is the OP still even reading this? his last post was #7...


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## iralosavic

So 375g dry = 250ml. Or was it 500ml? Haha


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## emnpaul

Edak said:


> no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.
> 
> take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.


That's my conclusion.


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## emnpaul

I think I have the answer and I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not thinking of this earlier.

If we know the strength of the sugar solution in degrees brix (Bx) then we know what the solution is as a percentage weight for weight.(%W/W) I.e. if the solution was 10Bx it would be 10 grams of sucrose in 100ml of water, therefore 10% W/W. Once we know %W/W we're half way there. 

Hypothetically, if you had 1*kg* of candy syrup at 50Bx it would consist of 500g (therefore 500ml) water and 500g sucrose, but *not* occupy a volume of 1 litre. Can you see where I'm going with this? The key is weight. 

You can calculate the dry (approx. 100%) sugar weight to wet conversion if you know the Bx using this formula:

Mw = Md/ww

Where: Mw = Mass of wet ingredient needed in kg
Md = Mass of dry ingredient in recipe, desired or whatever in kg
ww= % of sucrose in solution as weight

Eg: recipe for Belgian piswater calls for 375g candy sugar but you can only get/have syrup at 78Bx.
Applying formua: Mw = Md/ww
 = 0.375/0.78
= 0.481kg syrup or 481grams

The key word is grams. Place a cup on your scales, tare them and then *weigh* *out *481 grams of syrup. 

Going the other way (wet to dry) is a bit more complicated. You could use this formula:
Md = Mw X ww
= 0.481 X 0.78
= 275 grams dry sugar

Obviously you'd need to know the Bx of the candy sugar in the recipe or be able to take an educated guess and the recipe would need to show the weight of syrup in grams which is unlikely. In that case what you could do is make up a solution to the desired Bx, probably about 78Bx or 78%w/w and then add that in. Just be sure if making up 500ml or whatever to add your sugar to a smaller amount of water and dissolve, then add water up to your final amount, as indicated by GalBrew earlier in this thread.

Can't get 78g of sugar to dissolve in 22ml of water? Make it up to 39Bx and add twice as much. 

If you need to convert to Bx from SG you can use this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/


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## manticle

Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.


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## Yob

ESB sponsors site seems to have some mate


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## iralosavic

From the horse's mouth - there is a single supplier and they only bring in limited* stocks. As for how true/accurate this is, I can only speculate, although it does seem to be the case from my observations. *by limited I mean the quantity supply is inferior to the demand.


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## Whiteferret

manticle said:


> Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.


 Just make your own if your desperate manticle :icon_cheers:


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## manticle

Not desperate - this will age for 6-12 months but there is no way my homemade will come close to the commercial d2. I have made many batches of candy sugar before, both dark and light and the dark is not a close match


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## lael

What is the difference between commercial and home made? Are there more ingredients than just sugar and acid? Any taste difference ( I assume yes as you are willing to pay for it...)


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