# Malty Sweet English Ale - How Do I Get That Flavor?



## bear09 (16/11/10)

Hi All.

I am at the point in my brewing life where I have the equipment and the process down. I am happy with how things turn out and I have so much passion towards this amazing hobby of mine/ours.

I just cant seem to jag the characteristics in my beer that I really want. 

Anyone ever had an 'Old Speckled hen' or a 'Newcastle Brown Ale' or a 'Fursty Ferret' or a 'Ruddles County' or a 'Tetley's' or a 'John Smiths' beer? These are English style ales. i am not sure what exact category they fit into. Best Bitter, Premium Bitter? Southen English Ale?? I am not sure.

What I am sure of is that I passionatley love these beers. I love this type of beer so much I wish it was non alcoholic so that my wife would not look at me strangley at 9am on Saturday mornings when I have one going (this is occasional not always - you understand it and you know it!!). I love the way these beers leave you with a rich malty sweet finish that seems to have just a hint of bitterness to balance off the sweetness. I love the way they smell like burnt toffee with rich undertones of caramel. I am not a hop head at all.

So - how do I do it? What is the best yeast to use for this? What crystal malts really bring out the aroma of burnt toffee and caramal without making the beer too dark? What is the best bittering hop for a clean smooth finish in an english ale? What temps to people ferment them at?? What temps do people mash them at? What is the ideal FG? What is the ideal base malt?

I could go on with a bizzillion questions. Please, if you have a spare 10 mins and you have made something of this style in the past that is pretty special throw 'er in here. I and many others would be most grateful.

Cheers.


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## manticle (16/11/10)

Use English base malt like marris otter.
Use a good whack of crystal
Mash high but long (or do a small rest low 60s (maybe 10 minutes) then bump up the last 50 or so minutes into high 60s for the rest.
Use english liquid yeast like 1099, 1275, 1318, pro-103 etc.
If that's not giving you what you want, look at caramelising some of the wort down separately during the boil and adding it back in.
EKG gives some good fruitiness that goes well in a malty English beer. Also try blending one or two types of crystal together - some dark and some medium.


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## bear09 (16/11/10)

manticle said:


> Use English base malt like marris otter.
> Use a good whack of crystal
> Mash high but long (or do a small rest low 60s (maybe 10 minutes) then bump up the last 50 or so minutes into high 60s for the rest.
> Use english liquid yeast like 1099, 1275, 1318, pro-103 etc.
> ...



Hey Manticle!

You are always quick for a response and provide helpful info man - cheers for that.

Any particular type of Crystal malt for you that is best? Whats your favourite? How much should be used ideally (in %)?

Would you ever add vienna or munich malts?

Sould I only use a bittering addition and nothing else?

Cheers again.


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## hsb (16/11/10)

Definitely the Maris Otter, plenty of Crystal and good blend of hops. EKG/Fuggles being the obvious candidates.
My best Bitter has been with the WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast but any decent suitable liquid yeast to bring out that fruitiness in the amount you're after.
I think a good liquid yeast makes a big difference in getting a beautiful rounded palate.

Absolutely agree about the perfect balance of bitterness and sweet malts, yum, not too fruity for me, a little dry, glug glug glug. Have you tried the Young's London Special from Dan Murphy's? Bit strong for breakfast maybe, on a weekday anyway ;-)

This is the HSB recipe from the CAMRA book:

23 litres 
Pale Malt (Maris Otter) 4230g
Black Malt 55g (for colour)
White Sugar 245g (I tend to omit this)
Crystal Malt 150g
Torrified Wheat 295g 
Fuggles (60min) 16g
Challenger (60min) 24g 
Goldings (10 min from end) 13g

Mash 66C. 90 minutes. Boil 90 minutes. 1050/1010. 5.3%.

I used Wyeast 1098 - British Ale last time I did this but didn't think it was as nice as the WLP023...

Ferment's going to be around 17C depending on the yeast.

Happy brewing, a worthy quest, serve with a Ploughman's FTW!

-I'd think you'd want a late addition as well, just for a bit of aroma. I like the way these beers round out over time, always a little bit different.
-I'm quite generous with the crystal and if you have two types, go for it, more complexity is good imho.
- I've never used Vienna/Munich but I always keep a store of MO for Bitters.


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## Rod (16/11/10)

not wanting to steal this post 

but a simple K&K , I find quite tasty


Coopers English Bitter Kit


1.5kg of LDM 

Coopers English Bitter Kit 

made up to 18 litres 

or made up to 23 litres to give a sg 1048

I know it is too simple to be any good , but


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## jbirbeck (16/11/10)

manticle said:


> Use English base malt like marris otter.
> Use a good whack of crystal
> Mash high but long (or do a small rest low 60s (maybe 10 minutes) then bump up the last 50 or so minutes into high 60s for the rest.
> Use english liquid yeast like 1099, 1275, 1318, pro-103 etc.
> ...



Huh...I would have said mash lower. they need to feel full, finish dry. 

I've had best results so far from excluding the crystals and caramelising the first runnings but it is a pain so whack darker crystals in there and mash lower. The yeast will help with the maltiness, lovely esters assisting with fullness and flavour.

The rest I agree with.

HSB has it, 66 and down to 1010 although I'd mash lower with a whack of crystal. check the BJCP guidelines as a start (not the gospel) English Pales and Browns all finish pretty low.


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## geoffi (16/11/10)

I believe liquid yeast is a must for getting the authentic character.

Lots of good'ns...I've just made a bitter with Wyeast 1968 and I recommend it highly.


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## bear09 (16/11/10)

hsb said:


> Definitely the Maris Otter, plenty of Crystal and good blend of hops. EKG/Fuggles being the obvious candidates.
> My best Bitter has been with the WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast but any decent suitable liquid yeast to bring out that fruitiness in the amount you're after.
> I think a good liquid yeast makes a big difference in getting a beautiful rounded palate.



Hi There.

Thanks heaps for this reply this is the exact sort of thing I am after.

What I have found interesting about your post is that the first thing you mention is Plenty of crystal but then the recipe you provide only stipulates 150 grams. That seems like a very small amount to me am I wrong? Is crystal really that powerful that 150 grams could make a big impression on 4.5kg grain bill?

I have tried Youngs I bloody forgot to mention that. I like it but I certainly find it to be one of the heavier varieties. Its good though no doubt.

I also agree with what you have said about fruity. I am not a big fan of that either. Old Speckled hen is my fave. It feels thick, finishes dry and sweet and balanced well with bitterness.

I will heed the advice you have given in regards to a liquid yeast. I think the Safale BLUE dried yeast is pretty ordinary.

Thanks heaps for this reponse. Its a ripper.


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## jbirbeck (16/11/10)

Geoffi said:


> I believe liquid yeast is a must for getting the authentic character.
> 
> Lots of good'ns...I've just made a bitter with Wyeast 1968 and I recommend it highly.



+1 and then some


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## bear09 (16/11/10)

Rooting Kings said:


> Huh...I would have said mash lower. they need to feel full, finish dry.
> 
> I've had best results so far from excluding the crystals and caramelising the first runnings but it is a pain so whack darker crystals in there and mash lower. The yeast will help with the maltiness, lovely esters assisting with fullness and flavour.
> 
> ...



Hmm another interesting point abaout caramalising the first runnings. I may have to keep this in mind as well. Do large breweries do this?

Thanks for this response as well. I am noting this all down and cannot wait until next brewday.


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## bear09 (16/11/10)

Rooting Kings said:


> +1 and then some




Great stuff. Hearing you all. I shall go liquid and ditch that Dried Saf ale BLUE.


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## bear09 (16/11/10)

Rod said:


> not wanting to steal this post
> 
> but a simple K&K , I find quite tasty
> 
> ...



Every little bit helps - cheers.


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## MarkBastard (16/11/10)

What I've found works for me.

1 - Floor malted base malts.
2 - Caraaroma.
3 - Carafa T1 Special for the caramel/toffeeness


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## hsb (16/11/10)

bear09 said:


> Thanks heaps <snip>



No worries, my pleasure. It's the style of beer that got me into Homebrew > AG in the first place and happy to see anyone brewing it/quaffing it.

YYR about the Crystal amount, I suppose I think of between 5-10% as being 'a lot'.
That HSB recipe above also has the Torrified Wheat supplanting some of the crystal for the mouthfeel/head aspect.

Doing a decoction is an interesting idea and would no doubt help. Maybe first time out I'd try it without, then compare it to one with a decoction.


But definitely the yeast, I was amazed at the improvement when I first moved from Safale S04 to using liquid yeast for this style. It really does 'light it up'.

I think it was _Flowers Original_ that really put me off English Bitter for a number of years through my late teens/early 20s, way too fruity for my taste but it was often the only Bitter on tap in the wanky establishments I inhabited at the time along with the frothy muck Boddington's etc.. end of things. So I ended up going to the dark side and just drinking Guinness for a long time until moving out to Oz.

Great that there are some decent Bitters to be had in bottles out here. Ruddles was a Godsend when it first appeared everywhere. Hen's Tooth is one that seems to have disappeared. Speckled Hen is a good go-to and pretty cheap too. Quite a few Shepherd's Neame beers (Spitfire, Bishop's Finger, Master Brew, Whistable etc..) around as well, although at $10 a pop not such great value.


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## mika (16/11/10)

English malts, especially the crystal


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## Duff (16/11/10)

My simple ESB:

90 - 95% Ale (Marris Otter when I can get it)
5 - 10% dark crystal (145EBC like Bairds)
Northdown to bitter at 60 minutes
Challenger to flavour at 15 minutes
WY1968

Very tasty.


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## argon (16/11/10)

I did a heap of reading, searching and talking to some great English style home brewers in formulation of this one below, based on Timothy Taylor's Landlord. TT use 100% Golden Promise (although speculation continues that it gets kilned exactly to their specs ) They caramelise first runnings to get that beautiful crystal profile.

I have it on good authority about their hop additions linky which i've employed here

I also concur with the mash low method for a dry finish. I set mine at 64.5C, which ended up at FG 1012 IIRC. 90min mash and a 90min boil for some kettle caramelisation will help as well. Also have a read of the enitre thread of Dr Smurto's Landlord  for some great inside info for a good english bitter.

The secret is to also get good attenuation out of your yeast. In this case 1469PC. Have a read through this thread about how to handle it... especially in the first few days.

(note: this is for a double batch and next time i'll be using Thomas Fawcett's Golden Promise. Wasn't available at the time i did it)

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Landlord 2
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Special/Best/Premium Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 41.00 L 
Boil Size: 40.83 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 20.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 31.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
9.20 kg Ale - Golden Promise Bairds (6.0 EBC) Grain 96.84 % 
0.30 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3.16 % 
45.00 gm Fuggle [5.60 %] (60 min) Hops 14.1 IBU 
45.00 gm East Kent Goldings [5.60 %] (30 min) Hops 10.8 IBU 
45.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 6.2 IBU 
1.00 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 

1 Pkgs West Yorkshire (Wyeast Labs #1469) [StarteYeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9.50 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 25.00 L of water at 71.9 C 64.5 C 
10 min Mashout Heat to 75.6 C over 2 min 75.6 C 


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## felten (16/11/10)

One thing I'd like to point out that is just semantics and slightly OT, but caramelisation requires temps higher than 100c to achieve, which would require cooking all the water out of the wort first. So by boiling down the first runnings you're more likely just producing more maillard reactions instead.


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## manticle (16/11/10)

Rooting Kings said:


> Huh...I would have said mash lower. they need to feel full, finish dry.



That's why mash high but long (eg 90 minutes) or alternatively the little low end sacch rest followed by a higher one. Both work for me.

@OP - I normally use Joe white crystals but I would try and find some english ones - you'll probably get more character. Don't go nuts - just mix some med and dark together. I've had success with just using medium. Throw in some biscuit malt too.

As for hopping - some bitters can be very hoppy and it's delicious. Dry hopping is not out of character. Single bittering can also work well - personal taste. If you like Young's special london ale dry hopping is a must (ESB), old speckled I'd guess is probably single bittered.


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## scrumpy (16/11/10)

English Liquid yeasts are a must IMO!! I generally use 1968 or London Ale III (forgot number) 

Also I think taking the extra effort to get hold of some English crystals is a good idea I've been using simpsons.

Another point would maybe tweak your water chem and add some calcium sulphate to the kettle (about 14gms to 23L batch) this should round out the bitterness in the beer. oh meb water....

good luck!


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## thesunsettree (16/11/10)

quote - That's why mash high but long (eg 90 minutes) or alternatively the little low end sacch rest followed by a higher one. Both work for me.

Hi manticle,

with this in mind, can step mashes work in reverse? ie my system doesnt easily allow for ramping up... so can i start mashing mashing at say 67deg and purposefully attempt for it to finish at 60deg (i guess not lagging the tun, cooling in some way, dunno havnt thought that far ahead  ). just thinking out loud i guess.

cheers
matt


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## speedie (16/11/10)

Caramel could be added with the hot rock method or a red hot poker 

Or as stated earlier remove some and boil it down


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## manticle (16/11/10)

thesunsettree said:


> quote - That's why mash high but long (eg 90 minutes) or alternatively the little low end sacch rest followed by a higher one. Both work for me.
> 
> Hi manticle,
> 
> ...



First I can't answer yes or no. I doubt it would be better or even advisable but I can't say for sure.

The reason you step mash low and move higher is because certain enzymes are activated by certain temperature ranges. They may get deactivated or even denatured when they go above that range. Temperature and time will affect how the enzymes behave and what they produce and even when not denatured, higher temps may affect their ability to function.

I'm not sure I fully understand and certainly not enough to explain the exact action of the enzymes and how they work. There's some interesting stuff here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion which suggests to me that what you are thinking _might_ theoretically work but that the higher and longer a temperature is the less chance there is for the beta amylase to convert starch to more fermentable sugars so you are more likely to end up with dextrinous 'chewy' beer.

More stuff on temp and time here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...nfusion_mashing plus palmer has a good discussiona bout enzymes at different temps.

You can step mash in a single infusion type system (eg esky) in a number of ways - including hot water additions. decoctions and good quality immersion heaters. Stovetop BIAB etc can probably do it easy enough too- there are biabers here who step regularly who could give better advice than I.

I think cooling could be harder than heating.


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## thesunsettree (16/11/10)

manticle said:


> First I can't answer yes or no. I doubt it would be better or even advisable but I can't say for sure.
> 
> The reason you step mash low and move higher is because certain enzymes are activated by certain temperature ranges. They may get deactivated or even denatured when they go above that range. Temperature and time will affect how the enzymes behave and what they produce and even when not denatured, higher temps may affect their ability to function.
> 
> ...



thanks mate,

i kinda thought as much otherwise everyone would be doing it  . i have favourited your link and will digest it later as im rooted and need to sleep. thanks for the links

cheers
matt


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## bear09 (16/11/10)

argon said:


> I did a heap of reading, searching and talking to some great English style home brewers in formulation of this one below, based on Timothy Taylor's Landlord. TT use 100% Golden Promise (although speculation continues that it gets kilned exactly to their specs ) They caramelise first runnings to get that beautiful crystal profile.
> 
> I have it on good authority about their hop additions linky which i've employed here
> 
> ...




Far out everyone - seriously bloody thanks heaps. There have been some ripper responses on this thread - so far its been really helpful and I shall definetly follow up with my results upon my next attempt.

Cheers.

Keep em vcoming if you have them!


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## argon (16/11/10)

Just shows mate, how much everyone loves a good English ale. It's funny when I mention to other Aussie that the English make some great beers and it's best to drink them a little warmer and a less carbonated.

Good luck with it mate. Also have a listen to the brewing network and their series talking to Fullers about the esb and London pride. Some really good info about English character beers.

I have 2 kegs conditioning now of some English beers and it's taking all my strength not to tap them and get into them asap, before they're ready.


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## mje1980 (17/11/10)

Doesnt partigyle brewing help add that big yummy malt flavour??

I prefer the caramunich malts instead of other crystals, i find them more aromatic, and a lot smoother, just my opinion. And MO, for sure adds something yummy. Like has been said, liquid yeast is a big factor. I've tried many of the UK ale strains, and they're all good IMHO, though burton has been my fave, and im now using 1968, which seems to be a cracker also. 

Might be sacrelege ( sp? ), but 10% munich can boost your malt profile too. 

Either way, its such a broad style, you can make many different bitters/pales and im sure you'll have fun trying different ingredients etc. 

Cheers


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## RdeVjun (17/11/10)

There's dozens of specialty malts but also decoction and as mentioned, wort caramelisation- a longer boil can help with that too, I boil my UK Bitters for at least 90 minutes, often 2 hours but I also farted around with caramelising wort for a while, it just wasn't quite as reliable as I'd hoped but certainly still worth a whirl.


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## manticle (17/11/10)

felten said:


> One thing I'd like to point out that is just semantics and slightly OT, but caramelisation requires temps higher than 100c to achieve, which would require cooking all the water out of the wort first. So by boiling down the first runnings you're more likely just producing more maillard reactions instead.




Easier to say 'caramelisation' than 'producing extra maillard reactions separately from the boil'.


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## Fourstar (17/11/10)

Keeping it simple really helps in most instances. Here is my recommendations in order.

- BRITISH CRYSTAL - Bairds Medium Crystal is a good one to start with (8-10%). I cant wait to make an ice cream with it. :icon_drool2: 
- British Hops, EKG all the way is a great starter. ekg+challenger is even better.
- A yeast that leaves a malty finish is a must. Wyeast 1968. Fullers ESB yeast is a good start.
- British base malts like maris otter are a great 'malty' base malts, it really helps with that character. if you cannot get ahold of imported bases or cannot afford it, simple JW Ale with 5% biscuit malt adds enough interest to the base.
- As BribieG will probabaly attest, a touch of da sugaz (5%) to lighten the body with all that crystal.
- I typically mash at 67-68 deg for all my bitters.

a good recipe example thats simple and highly effective.

OG 1.050
IBU 35
Mash temp: 67 deg

87% Maris Otter
8% Medium Crystal
5% Sucrose

25 IBU EKG @ 60 min
10 IBU EKG @ 20 min
1g/L final voume flameout addition EKG

Wyeast 1968 - London ESB yeast


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## Brauhaus007 (17/11/10)

Dont beleive the hype you can get great results using dry yeast. Its just so much earsier as well.


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## bear09 (17/11/10)

Fourstar said:


> Keeping it simple really helps in most instances. Here is my recommendations in order.
> 
> - BRITISH CRYSTAL - Bairds Medium Crystal is a good one to start with (8-10%). I cant wait to make an ice cream with it. :icon_drool2:
> - British Hops, EKG all the way is a great starter. ekg+challenger is even better.
> ...



Hey fourstar - you're a gun mate. I am going to base my next one off this as well.

Cheers to you and all the others that have made a really good input to this post. I will certainly follow up.


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## bear09 (17/11/10)

Brauhaus007 said:


> Dont beleive the hype you can get great results using dry yeast. Its just so much earsier as well.




Did you mean to say 'can' or 'cant'??

The second sentance contradicts the first....


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## MarkBastard (17/11/10)

Brauhaus007 said:


> Dont beleive the hype you can get great results using dry yeast. Its just so much earsier as well.



+1, Nottingham goes well.


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## Brauhaus007 (17/11/10)

Not at all dried yeast is easy and you can get good results with it. Also you may want to look at adding some salts & minerals to Burtonise your mash liquor. This will have an effect as well.


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## Dazza_devil (17/11/10)

Fourstar said:


> Keeping it simple really helps in most instances. Here is my recommendations in order.
> 
> - BRITISH CRYSTAL - Bairds Medium Crystal is a good one to start with (8-10%). I cant wait to make an ice cream with it. :icon_drool2:
> - British Hops, EKG all the way is a great starter. ekg+challenger is even better.
> ...



Nice lookin recipe 4*
I've just moved into using base malts and doing a partial mash and was wondering if I should use any sucrose to counter around 1kg of LDME in a 23 litre batch. 
My question is would mashing at a lower temp give the same result as adding sucrose?
I didn't add any sugar in my first attempt, mashed at around 65-66 degrees C for an hour and my FG ended up around 1.011 but I only used 100g of dark crystal with 2.6kg GP and 200g of Brown Malt.

Also, have you or has anyone else for that matter, had any experience with dry-hopping EKG without a flameout addition?


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## Fourstar (17/11/10)

Boagsy said:


> Nice lookin recipe 4*
> I've just moved into using base malts and doing a partial mash and was wondering if I should use any sucrose to counter around 1kg of LDME in a 23 litre batch.
> My question is would mashing at a lower temp give the same result as adding sucrose?
> I didn't add any sugar in my first attempt, mashed at around 65-66 degrees C for an hour and my FG ended up around 1.011 but I only used 100g of dark crystal with 2.6kg GP and 200g of Brown Malt.
> ...



Adjusting mash temp for sake of not adding sugar. yes it can work but results ARE different. you're adding sucrose as a form of fermentatables as well as 'lightning' the malt flavour & dextrin %. in other words, same ABV~ with a lightened malt profile. Thats whats im trying to achieve by adding sucrose. i find it helps lighten the cloying characters from beers with v/high % of crystal as well. Big body with alot of crystal isnt something i really like in a bitter. a lighter body with a buttload of crystal = tasty.

Using EKG as a dryhop over flameout, i'd do both personally. Also, IMO only dry hop with plugs if you can get them. one plug per batch. the falvour profile is soo much softer/rounded with a plug. Personally i'll never dry hop english beers with pellets anymore, purely becuase i known how good it is using plugs. :icon_drool2: flamout is more than enough and is suitable for the style.


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## drsmurto (17/11/10)

I tend to take a simple approach to bitters.

90% maris otter
5% crystal (a mix of medium and dark english crystal - bairds/simpsons)
5% torrified wheat

English hops (EKG, Fuggles, Challenger, Northdown, Target) although Styrian Goldings also make an appearance
English yeast (liquid my preference)

Mash at 65-67C depending on how i feel.


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## geoffi (17/11/10)

Not having MO at the mo, I recently made a bitter using JW trad, Vienna, dark crystal and a small amount of brown malt. I think it's pretty close to the 'real thing'.


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## luckyeatwell (17/11/10)

Listening to the "Jamil / CYBI Show - ESB and London Pride Rebrew" at the moment - Their discussion seems to focus on the difference in caramel malt presence to be found in the pasterusied bottled (export) versions when compared to the Fullers cask-condition / unpasteurised variant of the same beer (which they sourced direct from a visit to the brewery).

The conclusion that they were drawing was that when brewing these type of beers to match a favourite english export / bottled product, that there will likely be a greater caramel malt presence in the commercial bottled variant that is a function of the bottling pasteurisation, and therfore - up the crystal malt to compensate if that caramel type of flavour is your desired result - Or pasteurise your beer.

For reference in this case, they were brewing to the Fullers recipe of 95% MO and 5% Crystal 150EBC (70 - 80L).

Not trying to advise anyones recipe formulation - Just making a point that our HB takes on classic english styles are often brighter, fruitier and hoppier than the export / bottled variants of our favourite brands, and probably much closer to the cask-conditioned variants of their home-land. 

This too has been my experience in trying to get that big crystal / caramel /raisin flavour into my Bitters.


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## Bribie G (17/11/10)

Plugs were actually invented for dry hopping British Real Ales as the plug fits nicely through the spile hole of a cask. I mash high-ish, around 67 degrees, to get flavour and body but then usually add up to 7% sucrose to then lighten the body (if that makes sense) without sacrificing alcohol content so the beer is sessionable without being cloying but also tasty. 

Whilst I'm a real ale fan, most of my favourite beers in the UK as I grew up weren't real ales, they were the halfway house between cask and the nasty keg beers, the bright beer tank brews of the North and Midlands, such as Newcastle Exhibition, Clubs Federation Special, Vaux Sampson etc. They were stronger beers - by Pom Standards - in the mid 4,s ABV but had that rich maltiness and hoppiness, were unpasteurised, and I know for a fact that they used a proportion of sugar in their makeup to produce something you could sink seven pints of without them becoming too chewy. By contrast some of the stronger cask real ales such as Abbott's Ale or Courage directors had me pretty well satiated after four and I would then even go onto a pint or three of Stella - pitchforks and flaming torches - to refresh the palate. 

So I enjoy aiming for the (now largely extinct) flavour of those sessionable brews, another good one being Camerons Strongarm. 4*s, Argon's and the Drs suggestions are great, I'd go 300g sugaz as well B)


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## Fourstar (17/11/10)

BribieG said:


> So I enjoy aiming for the (now largely extinct) flavour of those sessionable brews, another good one being Camerons Strongarm.



I'd have to say, the clone i did of this from the real ale almanac was delicious! :icon_drool2:


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## RobB (17/11/10)

BribieG said:


> .....and I know for a fact that they used a proportion of sugar in their makeup to produce something you could sink seven pints of without them becoming too chewy....



And just to throw a few more variables into the mix, remember that you can probably buy as many different types of sugar as you can of crystal malts. I've used dark muscovado sugar before which gave a dark toffee and rum note to the beer. Palm sugar is another which I am keen to try.

While we are on the subject of elusive flavours in british beers, there are some bitters which have a lovely pipe tobacco aroma. I would love to get this flavour in my bitters but I'm not sure which hop/malt/yeast contributes this aroma.


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## Fourstar (17/11/10)

Malty Cultural said:


> While we are on the subject of elusive flavours in british beers, there are some bitters which have a lovely pipe tobacco aroma. I would love to get this flavour in my bitters but I'm not sure which hop/malt/yeast contributes this aroma.




Fuggles always reminds me of a good cigar/damp forest.


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## beerbrewer76543 (17/11/10)

im planning on making a double batch soon and dry hop one lot with fuggles and the other with EKG @1g/L... or should i make it 2g/L???

hopefully they will both be tasty :beer:


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## Dazza_devil (17/11/10)

L_Bomb said:


> im planning on making a double batch soon and dry hop one lot with fuggles and the other with EKG @1g/L... or should i make it 2g/L???
> 
> hopefully they will both be tasty :beer:




I've got an EIPA planned and was gonna dry-hop EKG @ 2g/l. I'm thinking the plugs might be the go after reading fourstar's comments. What would be the equivalent g/l for 1 plug in a 23 litre batch?
1 plug or 2?
I was gonna bitter it with Challenger with a nice big flavour hit of Fuggles @ 10mins.


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## nala (17/11/10)

If you have'nt already got a copy - Graham Wheelers : Brew your own British Real Ale - is the most authentic reference on British Beers. I speak with 68 years of drinking experience.


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## goomboogo (17/11/10)

Boagsy said:


> I've got an EIPA planned and was gonna dry-hop EKG @ 2g/l. I'm thinking the plugs might be the go after reading fourstar's comments. What would be the equivalent g/l for 1 plug in a 23 litre batch?
> 1 plug or 2?
> I was gonna bitter it with Challenger with a nice big flavour hit of Fuggles @ 10mins.



2 plugs. They're usually around 13g-14g.


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## Fourstar (17/11/10)

Boagsy said:


> What would be the equivalent g/l for 1 plug in a 23 litre batch?
> 1 plug or 2?






goomboogo said:


> 2 plugs. They're usually around 13g-14g.



They are 1/2 oz plugs from memory so you're pretty much spot on. 14g~


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## Bribie G (17/11/10)

nala said:


> If you have'nt already got a copy - Graham Wheelers : Brew your own British Real Ale - is the most authentic reference on British Beers. I speak with 68 years of drinking experience.



New edition coming out fairly soon I believe. The problem with the book is that whilst GW picks the hops quite well, he doesn't go very deeply into malts and yeasts and the recipes tend to be along the lines of "4.3 kg Pale Malt" - yes, ok, so Maris Otter, Golden Promise??? And very little discussion about liquid yeasts despite the fact that there is a huge range of yeasts now available for different styles. He defends the limitations of the recipes on the fact that British brewers have to make substitutions in malts and hops all the time due to shortages / seasonal variations, so it isn't possible to mandate a particular malt. He makes a valid point broadly along the lines that if every British Brewer who claims to use Maris Otter actually used Maris Otter then the UK rural landscape would probably be horizon to horizon with MO fields  
Also of course many of the yeasts would be proprietory "in house".

Given those limitations, those Australian brewers who have a bit more background on malts and who don't rely just on Nottingham or SO4 for their yeasts can amplify GW's recipes presented in the book to achieve something fairly authentic.


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## thesunsettree (17/11/10)

hi guys,

i havent used melanoidan before but i see it in lager recipes mostly. i also see it adds to malt flavour and assists in flavours associated with step mashes. my question is does it have a place in uk bitter recipes??

cheers
matt


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## Dazza_devil (17/11/10)

Fourstar said:


> They are 1/2 oz plugs from memory so you're pretty much spot on. 14g~




Sweet,
do you bag 'em or just throw them in?
I imagine they would swell up a fair bit.


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## Bribie G (17/11/10)

Bag em in a bit of voile or muslin. However if you can get one of these, they are great for dry hopping using one plug, and will squeeze into a corny and sit next to pickup tube leaking goodness with every pint. The three inch variety, whatever that is in metric, not the golf ball size, will take a plug. 





Probably need to go online as they don't seem to be available locally, but try Asian stores.


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## bear09 (18/11/10)

thesunsettree said:


> hi guys,
> 
> i havent used melanoidan before but i see it in lager recipes mostly. i also see it adds to malt flavour and assists in flavours associated with step mashes. my question is does it have a place in uk bitter recipes??
> 
> ...




Can someone please respond to this post if they know the answer? I have always wanted to know this.

Cheers!


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## Bribie G (18/11/10)

I often use melanoidin in more "complex" malt driven higher gravity UK beers but wouldn't use it in a hop-driven Burton style ale, and not at all in a pale hop driven "Summer Ale" style quaffer.


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## argon (18/11/10)

bear09 said:


> Can someone please respond to this post if they know the answer? I have always wanted to know this.
> 
> Cheers!



Melanoidins are flavours that you get from other malts like Munich and Vienna. Melanoidin malt has been specifically prepared to impart flavours reminiscent of decoction mash schedules where malliard reactions occur at high temps.

Ive used Melanoidin a few times in German lagers and ales with good results. Mainly so I didnt have to perform decoctions. But Ive never used it in English ales. Also, I must caveat that Ive never done a decoction mash and never done a side by side tasting to see if there is a difference, or what my preference would be.

Have a listen to the brewing network podcast on decoctions. Some good discussions on whether there really are any discernable benefits to decoction mashing.


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## bear09 (18/11/10)

argon said:


> Melanoidins are flavours that you get from other malts like Munich and Vienna. Melanoidin malt has been specifically prepared to impart flavours reminiscent of decoction mash schedules where malliard reactions occur at high temps.
> 
> Ive used Melanoidin a few times in German lagers and ales with good results. Mainly so I didnt have to perform decoctions. But Ive never used it in English ales. Also, I must caveat that Ive never done a decoction mash and never done a side by side tasting to see if there is a difference, or what my preference would be.
> 
> Have a listen to the brewing network podcast on decoctions. Some good discussions on whether there really are any discernable benefits to decoction mashing.




Hmm its interesting because I have never seen a single post where people wave the flag hard for Melaniodin. In theory it sounds really really good but I never see people going on about how good they think it is.


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## drsmurto (18/11/10)

I trialled melanoidin in my Landlord initially and wasnt overly impressed. 

I think you are better of using a good english base malt, the floor malted fawcetts stuff is to die for.


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## Bribie G (18/11/10)

I used a small touch of Melanoidin in my Yorkshire Red. The next batch is sitting in the bag n lagged right now, and I have replaced the M with Carared, to see what the difference will be. Could just have left it out altogether but looking to maintain colour.


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## thesunsettree (18/11/10)

cheers for the melanoidan info guys, scratched an itch for me  . i will give melanoidan a go one day but i'll be selective with the recipe/style and not just use it for the sake of it.

matt


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (18/11/10)

DrSmurto said:


> I trialled melanoidin in my Landlord initially and wasnt overly impressed.
> 
> I think you are better of using a good english base malt, the floor malted fawcetts stuff is to die for.



Could not agree more Dr S.

Leave the melanoidin malt out of the English style beers.

C&B
TDA


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## dave_h (19/7/15)

Bribie G said:


> Bag em in a bit of voile or muslin. However if you can get one of these, they are great for dry hopping using one plug, and will squeeze into a corny and sit next to pickup tube leaking goodness with every pint. The three inch variety, whatever that is in metric, not the golf ball size, will take a plug.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was looking for something similar to the tea ball as im falling in love with keg hopping but I think ive found something even better.


http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Stainless-Steel-300-Micron-Dry-Hopper-For-Kegs/32376063269.html



or 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Stainless-Steel-Hop-Steeper-Herb-Ball-dry-hopping-home-brew/32308610580.html


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## Coodgee (22/7/15)

This is a recipe I have cooked up tonight for the style we are discussing here. Thinking of trying out the grainfather that I am about to get with this. Would love to hear people's thoughts. Also I am really interested in how people would treat Brisbane water to achieve this style. 

3.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.6 EBC)
0.20 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC)
0.15 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC)
0.10 kg Biscuit Malt (45.3 EBC) 

20.00 g Fuggles [7.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min 15 IBU
20.00 g Fuggles [7.10 %] - Boil 20.0 min 9.1 IBUs
Total 24.1 IBU

English Ale (White Labs #WLP002)


Target: 1.051 SG)
Target: 23.00 L

Primary Fermentation (14.00 days at 19.4 C ending at 19.4 C)


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## Moad (22/7/15)

Without reading the whole thread... Try 1968 yeast its awesomely malty


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## Topher (22/7/15)

I had some fresh fullers esb on cask a few months ago and it was mind blowing. Im going to start trying this style soon.

Ive been checking out the podcast archives on The Brewing Network. Lots of good info on this style particularly in "can you brew it". Fullers, Youngs, Hobgoblin etc all have an episode or two.

The actual head brewers run through everything from Malts, mash profile, hops, ferment and post ferment conditioning/packaging. Also water profiles.


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