# Selling Homebrew Legally



## Cooper_Hayes (3/1/19)

Hey guys, first post and am a new member! 

I currently make my own homebrew beer, I have let a few friends taste my beer as well as a few bar owners who have really liked it and are wanting to be able to buy and/or sell my beer, so I was wondering what I would need to do to be able to do that legally? I have read a bit online but am still unsure as there is a lot of contradicting information and not much information for Tasmania... 
I will be brewing under 100,000 liters a year. I am just unsure about how to go about it... Would I be able to have some help please? As I don't really want to receive a fine or anything.


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## wide eyed and legless (4/1/19)

Cooper_Hayes said:


> Hey guys, first post and am a new member!
> 
> I currently make my own homebrew beer, I have let a few friends taste my beer as well as a few bar owners who have really liked it and are wanting to be able to buy and/or sell my beer, so I was wondering what I would need to do to be able to do that legally? I have read a bit online but am still unsure as there is a lot of contradicting information and not much information for Tasmania...
> I will be brewing under 100,000 liters a year. I am just unsure about how to go about it... Would I be able to have some help please? As I don't really want to receive a fine or anything.


Greetings Cooper, I would imagine you would have checked the State regulations, here is an article from Crafty Pint about starting up your own brewery.
https://craftypint.com/news/1202/Starting_A_Brewery_Part_I
Also Tasmania's small producers permit.
https://www.treasury.tas.gov.au/Documents/Smallproducerspermit.pdf


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## MHB (4/1/19)

I think its fair to say you cant sell home brew legally without becoming a licenced brewery, then you stop being a home brewer and become a commercial brewer...….
That involves the ATO and your state and local government (I understand Tas is the easiest place to do this), biggest problem is that when the axe man cometh the cost of your home brew gets very much larger, you start needing legal kegs, having to pay tax and on and on it all goes.
Have a look at the excise alone on a 50L keg of say 5% ABV beer, at present its $35.15/L alcohol (less your 1.15%) so a 50L keg at 5% would have the equivalent of 50L @ 3.85% or 50*0.0385=1.925L at $35.15 per is $67.66, and its going up again on the 4th of February. Don't pay it and they will cheerfully put your arse in jail.

Have a long hard think about the costs and benefits!
Mark


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## DU99 (4/1/19)

go and contact a micro brewery's around the area they should be able to help you


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## bbqzookeeper (4/1/19)

MHB said:


> Have a look at the excise alone on a 50L keg of say 5% ABV beer, at present its $35.15/L alcohol (less your 1.15%) so a 50L keg at 5% would have the equivalent of 50L @ 3.85% or 50*0.0385=1.925L at $35.15 per is $67.66, and its going up again on the 4th of February. Don't pay it and they will cheerfully put your arse in jail.
> 
> Have a long hard think about the costs and benefits!
> Mark



I think a 50L keg at 5% is 2.5 litres of alcohol. Therefore, 2.5 * 35.15 = $87.88 in tax.
However, if the retailer was charging $10 for a pint (570 ml pint), and with good pourers, they might get 75-80 of these out of the keg (have no idea on this). That means ~$800 in retail sales. Obviously then it becomes a larger equation of profit, paying staff, cooling and equipment maintenance, etc.

From what I've gleamed, you get into it for the love, not the money.


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## MHB (4/1/19)

ATO would love you! You get a 1.15% discount on the alcohol content (compensation for GST - no tax on a tax...) but if you wanted to pay an extra $20(ish) per keg I'm sure they would let you.


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## bbqzookeeper (4/1/19)

Ahh, missed this in the title "Alcohol rates – Beer (Excise duty on beer is payable on the alcohol content above 1.15% by volume in your finished product)".

Your reasoning makes sense too.


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## Roosterboy (4/1/19)

I don't know Tasmanian Local Council Laws but here in NSW you would have to get a DA approval and jump through all the hoops they put up. For those reasons many breweries end up in industrial properties. Just mention the word Brewery around a residential estate and you will get people jumping up and down in protest as they think you will lower their home values. You would have no chance to get approval. So unless you live on a rural property or a winery at the moment, your site costs are going to increase dramatically.


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## Schikitar (5/1/19)

Cooper_Hayes said:


> I have read a bit online but am still unsure as there is a lot of contradicting information and not much information for Tasmania..


I live in Launceston as well, probably the most fun part would be getting anything built with local council approval as it seems unless you are are Joseph Chromy, Errol Stewart or one of the other big developers with dollars in pockets and friends in high places then getting something off the ground can be tough in this town. That said, I have flirted with the idea myself a few times as I think whilst Lonny has a couple great craft beer bars there are zero brewpubs. Wholesale/distribution is a world of pain, selling your own beer on your own taps and building a community around that, I feel, is the best way to do it. 

Closer to home take a look at Hobart, there are a number of excellent brewpubs down there such as HBC, Last Rites, Shambles (personal fav), TBONE, Captain Bligh's, The Winston etc., and many more, yet in Launceston I struggle to name many breweries except for Van Dieman, OCHO (Stu Grant is a brewing genius and master coffee roaster!), Morrisons, Kick Snare etc., but none of them have a cellar door, they are all distribution - there's potentially an opportunity there. You're young and enthusiastic, which is awesome, but do your research and understand you'll need dollars, experience and a work ethic like no other!

Anyway, that's my immediate rambling thoughts, hit me up if you need an extra taster! What sort of stuff are you brewing and what sort of system have you been doing it on? Are you in the Lonny home brewers group on FB? Cheers!


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## wide eyed and legless (5/1/19)

Good advice above, if you like a challenge, and you really, really, want to do it, a few obstacles wont stop you, as Schictar mentioned seems to be plenty of places in Tassie to get some advice.


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## shacked (6/1/19)

Perhaps you can kick off by getting a local brewery to contract brew on your behalf. You give them the recipe and they brew and package your beer for a per keg fee. Sure, the margins are lower but this way you can [legally] test the market appetite for your product without all the investment in equipment and admin.


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## Schikitar (6/1/19)

shacked said:


> Perhaps you can kick off by getting a local brewery to contract brew on your behalf.


Morrisons and Van Diemen both do contract brewing in Launceston.. Last Rites, Shambles and HBC do it in Hobart, Buttons Brewery might do it on the north west coast and I think Iron House do on the east coast - there's some options.


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## awfulknauful (6/1/19)

I think a lot of us would love to open a brewery or even a home brew store, be wary of being led by the heart or by the head.


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## Outback (7/1/19)

I'd hate to open a brewery.
At the moment I can brew what I want, when I want, how I want and not give a toss. If I stuff up, no one gives a toss.
If I open a brewery, I don't brew again ever because I'm too busy running the business, or I spend the first 18 hours of the day running the business and the next 12 brewing. That would make great demands on my time.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/1/19)

Running any business will start off with long hours and hard work, until you can get a good team together and delegate. Run a tight ship, be FIRM on credit, and keep a close eye on stock, orders and staff.
If you can't make a lot money than you can working for someone else, don't even bother


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## altone (7/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Running any business will start off with long hours and hard work, until you can get a good team together and delegate. Run a tight ship, be FIRM on credit, and keep a close eye on stock, orders and staff.
> If you can't make a lot money than you can working for someone else, don't even bother



Yep been there done that (Not in brewing) 
I made almost double the money I did working for someone else but was spending 16hrs a day EVERY day to do it!
8 hrs a day 5 a week doing the work and the rest - accounts, marketing, pr etc. etc.
Getting a couple of reasonable contractors to help grew the business a lot but the costs and non profitable work (ie. admin etc.) I had to do increased too.
I did get a decent price when I sold the business - enough to only have to work part time for the last 5 years.

If you've got the fire and a level head you could just be the next big thing though.

Remember that 60% of small businesses fail in the first 3 years and make plans that will keep you in the other 40%.


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## TwoCrows (7/1/19)

The ABV % must be accurate and recorded, Taxation needs to know how much to money take from you and drivers need to know ABV% to self judge there drinking pre driving.


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## TwoCrows (7/1/19)

Failure of small craft beer businesses is down to the capital $ needed. $1000,00 will get me going, $200,000 would be better . $ 500,000 more like it as a buffer


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## /// (7/1/19)

shacked said:


> Perhaps you can kick off by getting a local brewery to contract brew on your behalf. You give them the recipe and they brew and package your beer for a per keg fee. Sure, the margins are lower but this way you can [legally] test the market appetite for your product without all the investment in equipment and admin.


Not truer words spoken .... Get a whole sale license and go contract


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## David Bullen (3/11/20)

Cooper_Hayes said:


> Hey guys, first post and am a new member!
> 
> I currently make my own homebrew beer, I have let a few friends taste my beer as well as a few bar owners who have really liked it and are wanting to be able to buy and/or sell my beer, so I was wondering what I would need to do to be able to do that legally? I have read a bit online but am still unsure as there is a lot of contradicting information and not much information for Tasmania...
> I will be brewing under 100,000 liters a year. I am just unsure about how to go about it... Would I be able to have some help please? As I don't really want to receive a fine or anything.


Hi I have read most of the replies to your post so I was wondering if it was legal to have someone else supply me with the ingredients and I brew the beer and give the other person a dozen of the bottles. I keep the rest and no money changes hands?


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## philrob (3/11/20)

That's bartering, and they'll still get you when they find out. Wouldn't even think about doing it.
I've had people offering to buy my homebrew ingredients and splitting half the bottles of my product. I've declined, as there is no way I want to jeopardise my hard earned $$, and risk losing my RSA licence.


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## contrarian (3/11/20)

David Bullen said:


> Hi I have read most of the replies to your post so I was wondering if it was legal to have someone else supply me with the ingredients and I brew the beer and give the other person a dozen of the bottles. I keep the rest and no money changes hands?



If you used the ingredients to make wort and then packaged the wort in a way that enabled them to transport, ferment and package themselves it wouldn't break any laws as you are not providing anyone with anything alcoholic. As far as I know there aren't any laws against selling sugary liquid...


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## philrob (3/11/20)

LOL. That's selling 1/2 homebrew. I guess it's like selling fresh wort kits.


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## Roosterboy (3/11/20)

I'm pretty sure wort falls through the cracks of food regulations also, of course there is a risk with no chill wort and storing wort for long
periods with very low levels of oxygen that you grow Clostridium botulinum and poison people with toxin.


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## Feldon (3/11/20)

I gave this reply to a similar question posted in this forum four years ago.

(see: Pop up Brewery )

_"These sort of questions about going pro pop up quite often, and I've pondered a work-around that might make it possible, and legal.

The main thrust of the law is that if you make beer for sale you come under the federal excise laws, as well as local and state laws and regs concerning effluent discharge, health & safety etc. But the biggie is the federal excise law that is administered by the ATO.

So, instead of selling beer, why not sell wort instead as well as your services as a brewer to make it into beer.

It would work something like this: Get your beer drinking customers to pay up front for the ingredients, power, water etc - all the things needed to make the wort - and a fee for your skills in mashing and boiling it to produce the wort. There's nothing illegal about making wort for a fee. Because its not beer, yet.

I'd ask one or more of my customers to be physically present to pitch the yeast. This is the point in the process when you are turning wort into beer, and you want to make sure its not you that is making the beer. If asked by the ATO what you're up to, you can honestly say "I'm didn't make the beer my customers did. I just made the wort and supervised their fermentation as a contracted brewery hand".

When the beers ready to drink your customers can come to you (or you to them) for their share of the beer according to their investment in the operation.

I think this approach just might work.

Flame away._

But now I would have a van and go around to people's homes. Rent them a fermenter, a fermentation fridge, kegs and a kegorator (I would source a bulk deal with a major maker like Keg King or KegLand etc); and sell them fresh wort kits that I would supply (either made by me or bought in bulk from a micro brewery). The customer would initiate making the beer by pitching the yeast and then I would then work as hired help and put the fermentor in the fermentation fridge in the customer's own garage . When finished fermenting I would rack to kegs in the kegorator and gas up for serving.


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## kadmium (3/11/20)

Roosterboy said:


> I'm pretty sure wort falls through the cracks of food regulations also, of course there is a risk with no chill wort and storing wort for long
> periods with very low levels of oxygen that you grow Clostridium botulinum and poison people with toxin.


Not this again.


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## kadmium (3/11/20)

Feldon said:


> I gave this reply to a similar question posted in this forum four years ago.
> 
> (see: Pop up Brewery )
> 
> ...


I can get a keg of microbrewery beer filled into my 19l cornie for $95 from a microbrewery. 

You're going to drive around renting people fermenters, fridges, ingredients and what not to ferment them their own beer in their house, which you would need to access a couple of times, as well as explain cold crashing, conditioning, beer line cleaning and maintenance etc and you would have to charge less than $95 a keg finished.

The economics don't add up. 

And I'm pretty sure that saying "I didn't putch the yeast" would mean zero to the ATO if you're producing the wort, fermenting the beer, packaging and distributing it. Pretty certain they would go after the packaging and distribution as the point of transfer of goods rather than who plopped a packet of us-05 into a fermenter. 

Thats just my opinion. We should also be wary of trying to circumvent or provide advice to people on how to circumvent state and federal laws on excise on an open public forum which is about pursuing the craft of home brewing. That's my opinion, not being rude.


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## Dozer71 (3/11/20)

David Bullen said:


> Hi I have read most of the replies to your post so I was wondering if it was legal to have someone else supply me with the ingredients and I brew the beer and give the other person a dozen of the bottles. I keep the rest and no money changes hands?


Just get them to bring the ingredients around and have them stay and do the brew with you. Can ferment at your place as you have the room, then get them to help/do the bottling. They may then leave you some bottles as a thank you for helping/teaching them to brew and borrowing your equipment..


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## Roosterboy (3/11/20)

kadmium said:


> Not this again.


Sorry for pointing out a small but still a risk.In a world where the first defense is , "nobody told me"...he has been told. It"s not a myth, there are some recent articles on it.


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## David Bullen (3/11/20)

It's turning out so nice maybe I don't want to share it


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## kadmium (3/11/20)

Roosterboy said:


> Sorry for pointing out a small but still a risk.In a world where the first defense is , "nobody told me"...he has been told. It"s not a myth, there are some recent articles on it.


Hey mate. Probably in hindsight that came across as rude. I was more having like a chuckle eye roll "not this again"


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## David Bullen (3/11/20)

kadmium said:


> Hey mate. Probably in hindsight that came across as rude. I was more having like a chuckle eye roll "not this again"


No worries, with some hindsight of my own I'm pretty stoked with how my brews are turning out. More for me. The guy who was interested in buying them will have to come around and have a couple with me. On another note can you tell me how long beer will last in pet bottles?


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## sp0rk (3/11/20)

contrarian said:


> If you used the ingredients to make wort and then packaged the wort in a way that enabled them to transport, ferment and package themselves it wouldn't break any laws as you are not providing anyone with anything alcoholic. As far as I know there aren't any laws against selling sugary liquid...


No, but you still need to be inspected as a food and beverage manufacturing premises and afaik pay for all that.
So there is a cost, but it's not as big as a brewery's costs


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## kadmium (4/11/20)

David Bullen said:


> No worries, with some hindsight of my own I'm pretty stoked with how my brews are turning out. More for me. The guy who was interested in buying them will have to come around and have a couple with me. On another note can you tell me how long beer will last in pet bottles?


I would say 6 months. 

It depends on the bottles I guess. I believe Coopers use some form of barrier technology but even so, oxygen ingress is still an issue so I'd say 6 months.


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## paulyg (4/11/20)

Roosterboy said:


> Sorry for pointing out a small but still a risk.In a world where the first defense is , "nobody told me"...he has been told. It"s not a myth, there are some recent articles on it.


any chance you could post the links to these articles? i wouldn't mind reading them.


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## David Bullen (4/11/20)

kadmium said:


> I would say 6 months.
> 
> It depends on the bottles I guess. I believe Coopers use some form of barrier technology but even so, oxygen ingress is still an issue so I'd say 6 months.


Cheers 6 months is plenty


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## Grmblz (4/11/20)

There was a fairly big operation in Canberra (Hume an industrial are) warehouse full of fermenters, mills, fridges etc.
They supplied all the gear, and ingredients, and you supplied the labour.
You then went back at the appropriate time and got your brew packaged.
No idea about costs BUT! they went broke, despite good reviews.
Perhaps someone from the ACT can fill in the details.


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## Luxo_Aussie (4/11/20)

I've been asked by countless people 'when will you start selling this' when they've sampled beers - this makes me dream of my own someday but then after some time on google I'm brought back down to earth. It all comes back to time - sure I could make a small profit at smaller volumes but 12+ hours a day, 5-6 days a week, no thanks. Not worth the stress. I'd also be concerned with having a consistent product each time - not a concern when homebrewing but customers might want the same beer more than once.

I think the most profitable way (after a lot of reading) to get started would be a tap house/brewery to help bring revenue from selling pints on location along with kegs to other establishments. Not sure about Bottling/Canning as it would have lower margins given the extra time spent to package. If you're keen then go for it but perhaps talk to some local existing micro operations to see what needs considering before jumping.


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## kadmium (4/11/20)

paulyg said:


> any chance you could post the links to these articles? i wouldn't mind reading them.











Fact or Fiction – Botulism in Beer? Part V - Sui Generis Brewing


An overview of the scientific and medical literature regarding the risk of developing botulism from homebrewed alcoholic beverages.




suigenerisbrewing.com





TLDR get the wort to below 5 PH if storing more than 3 days you will be fine, less than 4.5 and you inhibit most pathogens.


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## Ministry of Mead (5/11/20)

They did go broke, In a brew your own operation such as this, the tax man still wants their cut. It is no longer home brewing and excise free. The fee is less than commercial product, but still exists.








Brew on premises shops beer


Brew on premises shops (BOPS) are commercial facilities that produce beer for non-commercial purposes. The public can use BOPS to make their own beer for personal use but not for sale.




www.ato.gov.au







Grmblz said:


> There was a fairly big operation in Canberra (Hume an industrial are) warehouse full of fermenters, mills, fridges etc.
> They supplied all the gear, and ingredients, and you supplied the labour.
> You then went back at the appropriate time and got your brew packaged.
> No idea about costs BUT! they went broke, despite good reviews.
> Perhaps someone from the ACT can fill in the details.


go b


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## Ministry of Mead (5/11/20)

Cooper_Hayes said:


> Hey guys, first post and am a new member!
> 
> I currently make my own homebrew beer, I have let a few friends taste my beer as well as a few bar owners who have really liked it and are wanting to be able to buy and/or sell my beer, so I was wondering what I would need to do to be able to do that legally? I have read a bit online but am still unsure as there is a lot of contradicting information and not much information for Tasmania...
> I will be brewing under 100,000 liters a year. I am just unsure about how to go about it... Would I be able to have some help please? As I don't really want to receive a fine or anything.


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## Ministry of Mead (5/11/20)

Cooper_Hayes said:


> Hey guys, first post and am a new member!
> 
> I currently make my own homebrew beer, I have let a few friends taste my beer as well as a few bar owners who have really liked it and are wanting to be able to buy and/or sell my beer, so I was wondering what I would need to do to be able to do that legally? I have read a bit online but am still unsure as there is a lot of contradicting information and not much information for Tasmania...
> I will be brewing under 100,000 liters a year. I am just unsure about how to go about it... Would I be able to have some help please? As I don't really want to receive a fine or anything.








Apply for a Liquor Licence | Treasury and Finance Tasmania


Apply for a Liquor Licence




www.treasury.tas.gov.au


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