# 2007 NSW Comp Politics thread ;)



## bigfridge (30/10/07)

capretta said:


> maybe just a list of the scores so that when people get their sheets they can see where they came without alienating anyone who perhaps does not want their exact position known?
> 
> but then again it is a public competition.. B) im easy



Is it a 'Public Competition' ?

Did all the entrants view a privacy policy and give written agreement that their names and results could be distributed without their expresss permission ?

I would be worried that someone coming towards the end of a category could be disadvantaged if a potential (or current employer) would not consider them for a brewing related job due to their poor showing.

In previous years the NSW comp has only ever published numbers and scores - no names.

David


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## KillerRx4 (30/10/07)

bigfridge said:


> Is it a 'Public Competition' ?
> 
> Did all the entrants view a privacy policy and give written agreement that their names and results could be distributed without their expresss permission ?
> 
> ...



The ANAWBS comp listed results with names, state, score & rank. I really cant see the problem.

Really I just want to know that my beers made it to the comp, the scores given & how they ranked alongside the competition. I thought that was the whole point of entering.


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## bigfridge (30/10/07)

KillerRx4 said:


> The ANAWBS comp listed results with names, state, score & rank. I really cant see the problem.



That doesn't make it right or even legal.



KillerRx4 said:


> Really I just want to know that my beers made it to the comp, the scores given & how they ranked alongside the competition. I thought that was the whole point of entering.



Ah, but when you get your score sheets back you will see your entry number and can look up the published list - this just has the names of the winners and the entry numbers for the non-placegetters.. You can see what we did last year here.


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## Armstrong (30/10/07)

Not to put too bigger point on it, but its debates like this that just suck all the fun out of these sort of events.

Comps were a bit of fun in the past ... is it possible that people are just taking them a bit too seriously these days??


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## bigfridge (30/10/07)

Armstrong said:


> Not to put too bigger point on it, but its debates like this that just suck all the fun out of these sort of events.
> 
> Comps were a bit of fun in the past ... is it possible that people are just taking them a bit too seriously these days??



I just think that you need to be mindful of people's feelings. For some people it is not nice having the world know that you came last with a problem beer. Just imagine if it was a pro-brewer with an infection problem caused by bottling at home - doesn't look good for him or his employer.

By all means we need to keep having fun at these comps, but not at someone's expense.


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## Ross (30/10/07)

The best brewer in the world can have a gusher if he's unlucky. I don't think anyone gets upset if they see their beer come last - It's not as if the reasons are being published. 
Half the fun of comps is seeing how you did against mates etc...Beating Barry for one, can be as good as a medal place  . & for me beating Batz in the Alt, when the recipe was inspired by him, is what it's all about...  lighten up guys...


cheers Ross


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## AndrewQLD (30/10/07)

Ross said:


> The best brewer in the world can have a gusher if he's unlucky. I don't think anyone gets upset if they see their beer come last - It's not as if the reasons are being published.
> Half the fun of comps is seeing how you did against mates etc...Beating Barry for one, can be as good as a medal place  . & for me beating Batz in the Alt, when the recipe was inspired by him, is what it's all about...  lighten up guys...
> cheers Ross



Spot on Ross.

Cheers
Andrew


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## /// (30/10/07)

As one who has been affected by privacy related issues related to electronic information, I have to take the side of caution when it comes to names and information online. As frivolous as it may seem, it is far from frivolous when it happens to you.... and I take concern at the poor attitude to private info vs BBQ boasting in a public space.

So as someone previously said, lets congratulate the place getters and lets raise the bar. The dogs with a bone need to go home ...

Scotty


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## Barry (30/10/07)

I don't want anyone to know about the 42/150 I got for my ordinary bitter.


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## Stuster (30/10/07)

Barry said:


> I don't want anyone to know about the 42/150 I got for my ordinary bitter.



:lol: 

If you can't stand to see your results published, maybe you shouldn't have entered a competition in the first place. :huh: 

I'd be interested in finding out how we all went. It's not just about BBQ boasting Scotty (although I think Ross has a great point about Barry  ), but it's also about seeing how the other people you know did, and finding out the scores ASAP for those of us with ADD.  

I realise it is a touchy subject these days for some reason, but there's yet to be anybody who says they don't want their results published. If you are so sensitive about doing badly, it might help to know that all or almost all the brewers who got a place, also had some low scores as well (or will do in later contests probably).


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## Gerard_M (30/10/07)

bigfridge said:


> I just think that you need to be mindful of people's feelings. For some people it is not nice having the world know that you came last with a problem beer. Just imagine if it was a pro-brewer with an infection problem caused by bottling at home - doesn't look good for him or his employer.
> 
> By all means we need to keep having fun at these comps, but not at someone's expense.



That seems a little bit ordinary in my book. 

What is a person that is employed as a professional brewer doing entering a home-brew comp? 
I seem to remember a few years back that comps such as the NSW title were for Amateur brewers only, it stated this on the entry form.

2cents that will no-doubt be wasted
Cheers
Gerard


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## Keith the Beer Guy (30/10/07)

Gerard_M said:


> What is a person that is employed as a professional brewer doing entering a home-brew comp?
> I seem to remember a few years back that comps such as the NSW title were for Amateur brewers only, it stated this on the entry form.


Gerard,

I'm a home-brewer now employed as a professional brewer.

I entered the NSW home-brew comp because on my days off I brew at home (much to the amusement of my boss). I brew at home because it's my passion, it's my recreation, it's how I relax, it's my idea of fun.

I sometimes enter beers in competitions because I love the process, taste testing my beer, assessing how they compare with style guidelines, the anticipation, the success, the failure, the feedback - I love it all.

I have helped organise competitions and judge at competitions because I feel like part of the community. I love contributing. And I love the satisfaction of seeing a job well done for my friends, peers and other beer enthusiasts.

I think of myself as a brewer first, be it using my midget 20 L mash tun at home or the relatively small 6 HL system at work; I'm proud of the beer of the beer I make and it doesn't make a difference to me whether I am serving at home from a corny keg or it's being poured by a bar staff member at work. 

Homebrewing and homebrewers are a big part of my life and I wouldn't want it any other way.

This is why, while being employed as a professional brewer, I enter home-brew comps.

I am not the only one in this situation, many people now in the industry came to it through an enthusiasm for homebrewing, which is why, after much debate, before my involvement, the rules of the AABC (Rule D3) were clarified to distinguish between commercial brews and amateur brews. 

Keith
NSW AABC delegate


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## KillerRx4 (30/10/07)

Keith the Beer Guy said:


> I am not the only one in this situation, many people now in the industry came to it through an enthusiasm for homebrewing, which is why, after much debate, before my involvement, the rules of the AABC (Rule D3) were clarified to distinguish between commercial brews and amateur brews.
> 
> Keith
> NSW AABC delegate



Thanks for the link to the rules.

So as per the AABC rules D.11 there is no problem as I read it.

D11. Privacy. Personal information (names, addresses, and other contact details, etc)
provided by brewers on the entry form will only be used for the conduct of the competition.
This information will not be released to third parties, other than the names of brewers, which
will be published in the results lists for the competition.


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## Gerard_M (30/10/07)

Keith the Beer Guy said:


> Gerard,
> I'm a home-brewer now employed as a professional brewer.
> I entered the NSW home-brew comp because therules of the AABC (Rule D3) were clarified to distinguish between commercial brews and amateur brews.
> 
> ...



Cool
'nuff said
Cheers
Gerard


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## capretta (31/10/07)

bigfridge said:


> I would be worried that someone coming towards the end of a category could be disadvantaged if a potential (or current employer) would not consider them for a brewing related job due to their poor showing.
> 
> David



ahahahaha  i honestly thought you were joking.. i would be amazed if that ever happened. man, though if you cant think quick enough on your feet if a "employer" sternly asked about your 2nd last in the 2004 pale ale category ( umm i entered a dopplebock by mistake?) you probably dont deserve the job. :lol: 

i agree with ray, even though most probably dont care, there may be one or two that do and its not worth it.

maybe a thread where all entrants can associate themselves with their own brand of poison?


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## Ross (31/10/07)

Not one person has replied saying that they would not want their result publishing & as Keller4x4 pointed out, it clearly says in the rules, that your name will be published in the results lists for the competition.

D11. Privacy. Personal information (names, addresses, and other contact details, etc)
provided by brewers on the entry form will only be used for the conduct of the competition.
This information will not be released to third parties, other than the names of brewers, which
will be published in the results lists for the competition. 

Not personally concerned about this comp, since it's a NSW one & you can do what you like, but would be pretty upset if other States went the same way...
Would take most of the fun out of the ANWABS comp if you couldn't compare against others - Comps are meant to be fun  


cheers Ross


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## PostModern (31/10/07)

Think about it. If there were 5 applicants for a job at a micro, the employer might google their names to see if they were associated with anything not on their resume. Finding poor showings at state comps could mean missing out on a job, even if the other applicants weren't on the list at all. Whatever, I can see benefits of both sides. 

I'm sitting on the fence about whether commercial brewers or just commercial beers should be excluded from amateur comps. To me, brewing is the making of wort and then fermenting it, so wort packs and kits are, techinically brewed on commercial equipment, so should be excluded under rule D3. Many think only the fermentation counts as brewing, so.... meh, whatever... in the end beer is beer and the intension is what counts.


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## capretta (31/10/07)

fun is good. :lol:


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## Tseay (31/10/07)

/// said:


> As one who has been affected by privacy related issues related to electronic information, I have to take the side of caution when it comes to names and information online. As frivolous as it may seem, it is far from frivolous when it happens to you.... and I take concern at the poor attitude to private info vs BBQ boasting in a public space.
> 
> So as someone previously said, lets congratulate the place getters and lets raise the bar. The dogs with a bone need to go home ...
> 
> Scotty



Absolutely- unless specifc permission is given to release names - dont. 
From memory the BJCP form has a space to provide a ranking for each entry. We also need to be mindful that it will hardly be encouraging new entrants into competitions if they believe their 'failures " will be exposed to all and sundry.


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## bigfridge (31/10/07)

Ross said:


> Not one person has replied saying that they would not want their result publishing & as Keller4x4 pointed out, it clearly says in the rules, that your name will be published in the results lists for the competition.
> 
> D11. Privacy. Personal information (names, addresses, and other contact details, etc)
> provided by brewers on the entry form will only be used for the conduct of the competition.
> ...



For my last hijack of this Winners thread let me just say that I fear that people have missed one small point. 

While no one has complained here, all entrants were not asked if they would like their details published.

The quoted rule is a good one and makes it clear how the AABC (ie the National Championship) publishes names etc but this does not automatically apply to entrants at the state comps. They have their own entry forms that make no mention of how the results will be published.

The important thing is that NSW has not published names for the last four years and we have not received any complaints about that - it is just they way that we do things.


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## Tony (31/10/07)

capretta said:


> ahahahaha  i honestly thought you were joking.. i would be amazed if that ever happened. man, though if you cant think quick enough on your feet if a "employer" sternly asked about your 2nd last in the 2004 pale ale category ( umm i entered a dopplebock by mistake?) you probably dont deserve the job. :lol:
> 
> i agree with ray, even though most probably dont care, there may be one or two that do and its not worth it.



I made a slightly more smartarsed comment saying the same thing and got moderated...... but thats fair enough. If you cant make a good beer maybe you shouldnt be brewing comercially. If i go for a job, they ring up all my previous enployers and ask questions. If i was a dud...... i wont get the job. thats how it works.

Not one person has said they mind but not everyone has had their say so in the rules of fairness we will leave it at that.

Just a point to spark another aggument.... maybe another tick box could be put next to the one asking if you allow your recipe details to be published to ask if you let your mane and placing details to be published for public view. If you say no....... your name is left blank on the publishing?

just an idea 

cheers


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## schooey (31/10/07)

Keith the Beer Guy said:


> Gerard,
> 
> I'm a home-brewer now employed as a professional brewer.
> 
> ...



Just 2 bobs worth from a noob here, but anyway..

I don't see a problem with someone from the industry being able to enter if they are brewing home brew the same way you and I could if we went to the trouble of acquiring the same home brew equipment they have. I think there is more value to be gained from their knowledge and feedback for me personally, but then again I have a lot to learn. For me, turning them away can only be a bad thing for the hobby...

But that's just me.

Plus, think of the satisfaction and pride you'd have if you brewed a beer in the same category that was judged better than theirs, and I imagine plenty have


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## capretta (31/10/07)

Tony said:


> maybe another tick box could be put next to the one asking if you allow your recipe details to be published to ask if you let your mane and placing details to be published for public view. If you say no....... your name is left blank on the publishing?
> 
> just an idea
> 
> cheers



not a bad idea..
minimum work load for organisers, an extra line in the excel sheet.


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## PostModern (1/11/07)

schooey said:


> Just 2 bobs worth from a noob here, but anyway..
> 
> I don't see a problem with someone from the industry being able to enter if they are brewing home brew the same way you and I could if we went to the trouble of acquiring the same home brew equipment they have. I think there is more value to be gained from their knowledge and feedback for me personally, but then again I have a lot to learn. For me, turning them away can only be a bad thing for the hobby...
> 
> ...



OK, so what happens when the prestige of the event is so great, that it attracts not only the Keith's but also the Lukes, David Hollyoaks, Tim Thomases, Scott Morgans, Gerard Meares, and what's the name of the guy from Murrays? So ten of the top micro-brewers in NSW enter the comp and at least three of them perform well in each category. Yay amateur brew comp!!!!!


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## Fatgodzilla (1/11/07)

PostModern said:


> OK, so what happens when the prestige of the event is so great, that it attracts not only the Keith's but also the Lukes, David Hollyoaks, Tim Thomases, Scott Morgans, Gerard Meares, and what's the name of the guy from Murrays? So ten of the top micro-brewers in NSW enter the comp and at least three of them perform well in each category. Yay amateur brew comp!!!!!



I think you may be drawing a fairly long bow there PoMo. With all due respect, the prestige of the events must dramatically increase before your scenario becomes relevant. As long as the criteria for entering is the same for all - "home fermentation" (and I like your idea of taking the beer from grain through to output - let kits, extracts and wort kits be classified differently) and the inability to use "commercial output devices" to make a "home brew" then the pros have as much right to enter. It will be their reputation and possibly egos that suffer when they get beaten by an amateur. And they will - after all, haven't we all tasted some poor craft brews !!

Think also that there are different levels of amateur knowledge out there. Your knowledge of brewing is much better than mine and I guess there are brewers whose knowledge exceeds yours. There are also people with far more time and far better equipment than others who also have an advantage over others. Someone always has an edge. It is a bit like another conversation last week about Moto GP. In a perfect world, all bikes and equipment should be the same then let the best rider win. But reality is, no, its the full deal that wins the championship - equipment and rider.

We are lucky in home brewing that it is not necessarily the equipment that make the beer. Its the dill using the equipment that counts. And factors external to the dill - the sun, the stars, the moon,the missus, the kids, the quality of your ingredients etc that will also affect the result. 

Set the criteria, set the styles, come down heavily on those who breach them.

Lastly, I still cannot get over the whinging by people over the styles judged. What I feel is a better competition is give the competitors the exact same ingredient list to choose from and then the desired outcome. He / she who produces the best outcome wins a brewing judged award. If you want a competition where you can enter ANY beer into a non catagorised competition to simply find a Best of Show, stage a different competition.


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## PostModern (1/11/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> I think you may be drawing a fairly long bow there PoMo. With all due respect, the prestige of the events must dramatically increase before your scenario becomes relevant. As long as the criteria for entering is the same for all - "home fermentation" (and I like your idea of taking the beer from grain through to output - let kits, extracts and wort kits be classified differently) and the inability to use "commercial output devices" to make a "home brew" then the pros have as much right to enter. It will be their reputation and possibly egos that suffer when they get beaten by an amateur. And they will - after all, haven't we all tasted some poor craft brews !!



It might be a long bow, admittedly, but to mix metaphors, the door is left open. I'm sure professional brewers would rather keep their competition to things like the AIBA, but most craft brewers I know are passionate homebrewers as well. Here's an analogy: Pro golfers entering an amateur competion. "But it's OK, they're not using their Tour clubs, shoes or balls." Sure, why would they bother, tho.


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## newguy (1/11/07)

It's been my experience that pretty much all pro brewers around here want absolutely nothing to do with amateur competitions. It may be that they're afraid of what amateur judges (i.e. BJCP) would find in their beers, or that a rank amateur beats them. All I know is that we amateurs have our competitions, and the pros have theirs. In my opinion, this is how it should be.

FWIW, even the pro competitions only name the top beers in each category. They never break down the order in which each and every entrant placed.


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## Fatgodzilla (1/11/07)

PostModern said:


> It might be a long bow, admittedly, but to mix metaphors, the door is left open. I'm sure professional brewers would rather keep their competition to things like the AIBA, but most craft brewers I know are passionate homebrewers as well. Here's an analogy: Pro golfers entering an amateur competion. "But it's OK, they're not using their Tour clubs, shoes or balls." Sure, why would they bother, tho.



But they do have golfing pro-ams. Most amateur competitions have handicaps to "balance" the contest. As said, make sure that they cannot use commercial advantage and they use the same equipment and ingredients and these professional brewers are pretty much at the same level as everyone else. Most commercial brands are more about science than brewing ! The professional who will go in a home brewing are likely those who came from homebrewing or are really just a step above the best amateurs. 

And as Newguy says, pros don't tend to go in amateur stuff anyway. It's hard enough to get the amateurs !!!

I know what you are saying and I defend your right to say it. But who's right ?? Everyone.

Opinions. They are like noses. Everyone has one.


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## /// (1/11/07)

newguy said:


> It's been my experience that pretty much all pro brewers around here want absolutely nothing to do with amateur competitions.



Well not so here, until moving house got in the way of this last weekend in NSW the professionals are usually in support via the way of organizing or participating as judges. Afterall, a large part of any Micro Brewers market is beer enthusiasts including home brewers.

As well Bitter and Twisted is a Pro Am event...

Whilst my name was listed above, I did not see anyone claiming dibs over Barry Cranston and offering him a job to come to the 'sometimes paid' side of the force. So I bag first dib's on Barry and extend my offer to hom to join the team of bad jokes and broken wind .... on the South Coast  

And Fatzilla, i still use the same crappy plastic buckets as I did 10 years ago, i wonder if I was a pavlovian dog what I would do?

Scotty


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## bigfridge (1/11/07)

newguy said:


> FWIW, even the pro competitions only name the top beers in each category. They never break down the order in which each and every entrant placed.




There is one thing that everyone seems to have been forgotten during this extended thread hijack.

The current NSW Brewing Championship organiser (ie Ray) and the previous organiser (ie me) have clearly and repeatedly stated that NSW have never, and does not intend to now publish non-placegetter names. It is just the way that we run our comps in NSW.

But thanks for all the advice given. Perhaps a future organising committee will adopt your recommendations, but until then it looks like that is the way that it is in NSW. If people want their names published they are free to enter other competitions.


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## newguy (1/11/07)

/// said:


> Well not so here, until moving house got in the way of this last weekend in NSW the professionals are usually in support via the way of organizing or participating as judges. Afterall, a large part of any Micro Brewers market is beer enthusiasts including home brewers.



I should have been more specific. We have some small & mid-sized breweries who support our competitions by sending loot for prizes, and occasionally their employees will serve as judges. What I meant was that they'd never considering entering their beers against the beers we amateurs brew. Besides, every competition I've been involved with (either as an entrant or as a judge) has stated very clearly that only beers brewed at home, not in a commercial establishment, were eligible.

Quite a few years ago, I was invited to help judge at a small commercial competition held in conjunction with a weekend beer festival. I was invited to participate because the organizer wanted the...._legitimacy?_....of having a BJCP judge in his competition. The commercial brewers almost pulled out of the festival because of this. They did not want an amateur evaluating their beers at all.


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## kabooby (1/11/07)

PostModern said:


> It might be a long bow, admittedly, but to mix metaphors, the door is left open. I'm sure professional brewers would rather keep their competition to things like the AIBA, but most craft brewers I know are passionate homebrewers as well. Here's an analogy: Pro golfers entering an amateur competion. "But it's OK, they're not using their Tour clubs, shoes or balls." Sure, why would they bother, tho.



Good analogy Pomo

Would it be to simple that if you didnt want your name posted to enter under an Alias name  

I have a freind that plays golf comp on Fridays and has a different name down. That way if he wins the comp and his name is in the paper his boss wont spot it :lol: 

Just my 2c worth

Kabooby


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## Fatgodzilla (1/11/07)

..."And Fatzilla, i still use the same crappy plastic buckets as I did 10 years ago, i wonder if I was a pavlovian dog what I would do?
Scotty "

as long as you don't salivate over us when we ring the bell ...................

Like I said, you follow the same rules as everyone else, you're in. I'll let Chuck Hahn in if he used brewed under the same conditions as anyone else. We don't all have the same knowledge, but i reckon that is not necessary at this level of competition. It's for fun, aint it ??? :huh: 

And if NSW says we don't publish names and results, then I happy to that. The winners will soon let you know about their wins.


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## AndrewQLD (1/11/07)

bigfridge said:


> There is one thing that everyone seems to have been forgotten during this extended thread hijack.
> 
> The current NSW Brewing Championship organiser (ie Ray) and the previous organiser (ie me) have clearly and repeatedly stated that NSW have never, and does not intend to now publish non-placegetter names. It is just the way that we run our comps in NSW.
> 
> ...



Then perhaps you shouldn't have hijacked the thread in the first place  



> Good question Paul.
> 
> There would have been many more judges and stewards available except that they were involved in the new Bitter & Twisted competition.
> 
> ...



But I do agree with what your saying, it's a NSW competition and if they decide not to list full results then it is up to their organisers and theirs alone. Anyone who does not agree should get on the committee and make some changes through the correct chanels.
There is nothing worse in my opinion than finding fault with someone or some group who has sacrificed many hours, and I do mean _sacraficed_, to the benefit of a lot of people. I can guarantee that most of the people who donate their time to these competitions find it extremely disheartening/depressing when negative comments are posted on forums such as this.

We really need to look at the positives, there is always something that can be improved in these competitions but you will find that over time it happens.

Having said all that I think I should apologise to David and also Ray and the rest of the NSW committee if any of my comments caused offence and contributed to the thread hijack.

It might be good if one of the Mods, PoMo? could clean this thread up a bit and return it to The "Results NSW 2007 homebrewing competition" format it should be.

Cheers
Andrew


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## warrenlw63 (1/11/07)

:lol: Not sure why the NSW pushes up past 6-7 pages. Did the same thing last year.

All the other states were lucky if they pushed past 3 pages each.

You blokes sure do take your comp-related politics seriously.  

Mods feel free to kill this post if you wish. Just speaking my mind.

Warren -


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## PostModern (1/11/07)

OK guys, split from the Results thread. Go for it


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## Steve Lacey (1/11/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> And if NSW says we don't publish names and results, then I happy to that. The winners will soon let you know about their wins.



Keep your head down and eye on the ball, son. The place-getters _are _published. The conversation is about the publication of the names and scores of non place-getters.

I have to also continue in argumentative curmudgeon vein and say I don't agree with the golf analogy because it is about golf. And this is about brewing. Two different things. In one you pointlessly wander around the countryside tormenting a defenceless little white ball while muttering and cursing about the process, then professing to love it. In the other, you make beer. 

But seriously, the talk about someone who works in the brewing industry entering home brew comps is a bit of a red-herring and was started by what was little more than a throw-away line by David to suggest that maybe there are good reasons why some people may not want their dud results published. The real point is this: the established system is to publish only the names of place-getters, but everyone eventually gets their own score sheets (I assume that is the practice in this case?) after which they can share it with whomever they want. (Mind you, in an ideal world, organizers should make every effort to get those score sheets out very promptly after the publication of results). That is the expectation that has been created by past practice. To depart from it, you need to do as Tony says and put a specific checkbox on the entry form saying that you agree to the publication of your name and result on an Internet site, newsletter, national newspapers and international glossy magazines ... whatever. As this thread shows, most people will certainly agree. But until you have dotted the i and crossed the t, you can't just go making things up as you go along.

As you were. :icon_cheers:


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## Fatgodzilla (1/11/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> :lol: Not sure why the NSW pushes up past 6-7 pages. Did the same thing last year.
> 
> All the other states were lucky if they pushed past 3 pages each.
> 
> ...



Naaa, talking makes you thirsty and then you drink. 

When the cricket starts next week, no one will feel like a good philosophical stoush, so get in early before NSW (sorry, there's a tasmanian and a couple of bananabenders there somewhere) Australia beat Sri Lanka !!


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## schooey (1/11/07)

PostModern said:


> OK, so what happens when the prestige of the event is so great, that it attracts not only the Keith's but also the Lukes, David Hollyoaks, Tim Thomases, Scott Morgans, Gerard Meares, and what's the name of the guy from Murrays? So ten of the top micro-brewers in NSW enter the comp and at least three of them perform well in each category. Yay amateur brew comp!!!!!




I dunno... so what if they do as long as they are brewing with home brewing equipment? The only difference then can surely be ingredients and technique. If they chose to share some of those I can only see it as a bonus....

*shrugs*


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## floppinab (1/11/07)

Interesting choice of title PoMo.
I came in here expecting to see a detailed analysis of Labors chances of picking up Howards battlers seats in a few weeks


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## PostModern (1/11/07)

floppinab said:


> Interesting choice of title PoMo.
> I came in here expecting to see a detailed analysis of Labors chances of picking up Howards battlers seats in a few weeks




OK. Fixed.


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## /// (1/11/07)

I take the pages of dialog about the comps as an example of folks seeking for perfection in a process that is inherantly flawed. Beer judging is subjective to a degree, and whilst you use a number of tools to limit this, subjectivity affects the outcome.

I was a participant a few weeks ago at a Pro Comp where we were sat down and given an open ended title of 'Lager', 'Pale Ale', 'Wheat' etc with no reference or style guidlines etc. Parameters such as Clarity, Aroma, Flavour, Body and Drinkability were the acessment points.

Within a majority of cases, after considered reflection and some discussion, all judges came close on most beers. The winners were unanimous and on one panel we got thru 36 beers in about an hour. 

So whilst this is similar to the wine style of judging, I liked the aspect of having a number of beers to compare against compared to the isolation of the current popular format. On reflection the individual pursuit of the BJCP and such methods is laborious and somewhat boring. The facility we used a few weeks ago was quick, easy and allowed a quick session to allow maximum time spent at the bar gas bagging. I think time spent at the bar exceeded time spent judging .....

Anyways, with no real point I must exit stage left.

Scotty


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## AndrewQLD (1/11/07)

Scotty, that sounds suspiciously similar to the old style of Homebrew comps run by most Local agricultural shows.
Categories consisted of 
Lager, dark Ale, Pale Ale, Stout and ginger beer, with no Styles as such, the main judging points being aroma clarity ect and the main catch cry for a good beer was "I'd drink that no problems" perfect score :lol: .

Judging to the BJCP style guidelines can indeed be very laborious and time consuming.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Ross (1/11/07)

/// said:


> On reflection the individual pursuit of the BJCP and such methods is laborious and somewhat boring. The facility we used a few weeks ago was quick, easy and allowed a quick session to allow maximum time spent at the bar gas bagging. I think time spent at the bar exceeded time spent judging .....
> 
> Anyways, with no real point I must exit stage left.
> 
> Scotty



Scotty, are you referring to the NSW AABC qualifing comp here or another one?

Cheers Ross


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## /// (1/11/07)

Nope, this was a professional comp held a few weeks ago, nothing to do with AABC as was playing removalist. It was very similar to the wine style judging method, but we did look at the 4 critical points required and consider the technical aspects of the beer. 

Combined there would have been over 30 years professional experience around the table. The lead judge for our panel ran things very closely as he would have at his major brewery; from foam appearance and structure, clarity, malt profile and flavour, bitterness profile and perception, balance and structure etc etc.

The judgment on best beer for me was which one I would buy a 6 pack of. Buying beer is a novelty ...

What I did like was having a number of samples to taste and compare rather than in isolation. This allowed you to consider different hop profiles quickly, esters and malt flavour etc etc...

Anyways, it was just another way to skin a cat.

Scotty


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## Trent (1/11/07)

Ross said:


> Scotty, are you referring to the NSW AABC qualifing comp here or another one?
> 
> Cheers Ross




Good one, Scotty
Now we are gonna have to get this thread split into another splinter debating judging styles, and style guidelines, etc... :lol:
I certainly enjoy judging, but if I could get through 30 beers in an hour then head to the bar, I am all for it! I need to know more about this process, will you teach me?! 
Mind you, I don't think it will be conducive to providing good feedback to the brewers, as I saw a commercial judging sheet once that had all the room for the comments and looked like this
Aroma -
Appearance - Yep
Flavour -
Mouthfell - 
Overall Impression - Nice
38/50

At the end of the day, though, more bar time is still a great thing. Maybe we can do a comp like that next year - the "no feedback comp". And dont laugh, I reckon it could be fun! Though probably not beneficial to anyone but the winners.
Trent


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## Gerard_M (1/11/07)

/// said:


> On reflection the individual pursuit of the BJCP and such methods is laborious and somewhat boring.
> Scotty



Well I can not recall the last time this happened, but I must agree with Scott Morgan! Never thought that would ever happen <_< 

On to the pro's vs amateur debate. I made my original point based on personal experience. When I first started brewing at Paddy's in 2004 I natuarally thought that by brewing in a commercial brewery, & copping a pay cheque, that I would have to exclude myself from taking part in home-brew comps as I had lost my "amateur status". No drama for me, I couldn't give a rats either way. This was a pretty easy decission for me because I had previously played quite alot of golf, & had played in amateur golf tournaments. As an amateur I could play in what was an "open" event, open to both amateurs & pro's. If I had turned pro I would not have been able to play in the amateur event anymore. (I would also have no been able to afford to eat)

I basically look at the situation with brew comps in the same way. 

Cheers
Gerard


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## Trent (1/11/07)

Gday
I would have to disagree with the references to golf that seem to keep on popping up, as to me, it is quite a different thing. 
To succeed as a pro golfer, you need to have talent - a talent that many people do not have. You can look at how many hours that people spend on the golf course, and/or taking lessons, etc... and never even approach that level. SO, what you are all saying is that people that are professional brewers were born with that talent, and no amount of training or coaching can make "normal" brewers that good? To me, put any old fool in a pro brewery, teach him the ropes, and he will be able to put out commercial quality beer - not always good, but we know that not all commercial beer is good. Brewing is about doing certain things, in a certain order, nothing to do with hand/eye co-ordination or things like that. Yes, there is an inherent talent in there, but you dont NEED it to be a pro brewer.
If you ask me, I have no problems competing with pro brewers, as if they are making beer at home on their 25L system, an old esky with a braided manifold, using gravity, and shaking the carboys to aerate (or however you choose to do it at your place) then they are on a level playing field in my eyes. Just because Sierra Nevada puts out the recipe to their Pale Ale on their website, doesnt mean that one of us can replicate it that well at home, nor does it mean we cannot. It all comes down to technique and knowing your system, and no matter how well we know our home system, I dont think that there is the same level of repeatability as there is in a commercial set-up. Besides, we are always brewing on our home set-up, so when the pro's are brewing that comp beer on the system they rarely use, we have the upper hand.
If you give 49 regular brewers and 1 professional brewer a recipe, and tell them to make it AT HOME, in their esky mash tun and 50L kettle, can you tell me for sure that the professional brewer is going to make the best beer? Hell, give em 10 different beers, and you STILL dont have the guarantee the pro brewer will win any of those 10 categories - he may, but most likely not (especially if Barry is one of the 49 :lol. 
Conversely, give 49 regular golfers and Tiger Woods 10 rounds on St Andrews, and I know who will win at least 9 out of the 10 rounds.
At the end of the day, most pro brewers dont wanna enter amateur comps. If they do, good on em - they may be after feedback for an upcoming seasonal, or just interested to see how they go.
And for those of you who are against it, just try and think how many times you have thought to yourself "this is better than most of the stuff available commercially". Just cause ya dont do it for a living, doesn't mean you are not as good as those that do.
Sorry for the rant, it certainly wasnt intended to sound that way  Just that I am much more worried about competing against passionate homebrewers than pro's.
All the best
Trent
EDIT - needed to put the last : on the laugh symbol


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## Ross (1/11/07)

Trent said:


> Gday
> I would have to disagree with the references to golf that seem to keep on popping up, as to me, it is quite a different thing.
> To succeed as a pro golfer, you need to have talent - a talent that many people do not have. You can look at how many hours that people spend on the golf course, and/or taking lessons, etc... and never even approach that level. SO, what you are all saying is that people that are professional brewers were born with that talent, and no amount of training or coaching can make "normal" brewers that good? To me, put any old fool in a pro brewery, teach him the ropes, and he will be able to put out commercial quality beer - not always good, but we know that not all commercial beer is good. Brewing is about doing certain things, in a certain order, nothing to do with hand/eye co-ordination or things like that. Yes, there is an inherent talent in there, but you dont NEED it to be a pro brewer.
> If you ask me, I have no problems competing with pro brewers, as if they are making beer at home on their 25L system, an old esky with a braided manifold, using gravity, and shaking the carboys to aerate (or however you choose to do it at your place) then they are on a level playing field in my eyes. Just because Sierra Nevada puts out the recipe to their Pale Ale on their website, doesnt mean that one of us can replicate it that well at home, nor does it mean we cannot. It all comes down to technique and knowing your system, and no matter how well we know our home system, I dont think that there is the same level of repeatability as there is in a commercial set-up. Besides, we are always brewing on our home set-up, so when the pro's are brewing that comp beer on the system they rarely use, we have the upper hand.
> ...



No rant that I can see - plus agree 100%  
I'd love to see some more "pro" brewers entering comps, it's the competing that's fun & the more "big" names you have a chance of beating the better B) 
As others have said though, i can't see many proffesional brewers prepared to have their beers put up against the amateurs - Would make a good comp though possibly, the best 1 or 2 brewers from every state together, up against an equal quantity of pro brewers for the PRO/AM Cup :icon_chickcheers: 


Cheers Ross


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## Darren (1/11/07)

Nothing wrong with a pro-brewer entering, so long as the beer was made at home.

cheers

Darren


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## Darren (1/11/07)

Tseay said:


> Absolutely- unless specifc permission is given to release names - dont.
> From memory the BJCP form has a space to provide a ranking for each entry. We also need to be mindful that it will hardly be encouraging new entrants into competitions if they believe their 'failures " will be exposed to all and sundry.




University's have only published results by student number for years now for these exact reasons. Maybe assigning every entrant a number so they can see how they went against others. Easy enough to reveal your number to your mates if you wish.

BTW: I still get a ribbing about my 10/50 for my cherry lambic  

cheers

Darren


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## MHB (1/11/07)

Why dont one of the entrants create a table showing the bottle numbers and scores, then post it.

If anyone wants to they can copy the table - put their name in next to the bottle number and score - a bit like the ever copied and reposted list we every case swap.

Those that want to can; everyone else can remain anonymous.

MHB


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## Tony (1/11/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> Scotty, that sounds suspiciously similar to the old style of Homebrew comps run by most Local agricultural shows.
> Categories consisted of
> Lager, dark Ale, Pale Ale, Stout and ginger beer, with no Styles as such, the main judging points being aroma clarity ect and the main catch cry for a good beer was "I'd drink that no problems" perfect score .
> Cheers
> Andrew



I remember entering a comp in tamworth and they had a "draught" catagory. I asked how they were going to get everyone to drag their kegs in and hook them up and they looked at me all confused. I expalained to them what draught beer was and they told me......."NO...... draught...... while holding up a can of coopers draught" I will never forget that. I entered my aussie pale ale "draught" and got 1st place and won a $50 voucher that bought me a wheelbarrow. :icon_offtopic: 



Ross said:


> No rant that I can see - plus agree 100%
> I'd love to see some more "pro" brewers entering comps, it's the competing that's fun & the more "big" names you have a chance of beating the better
> As others have said though, i can't see many proffesional brewers prepared to have their beers put up against the amateurs - Would make a good comp though possibly, the best 1 or 2 brewers from every state together, up against an equal quantity of pro brewers for the PRO/AM Cup
> Cheers Ross



Now that would be fun! 



Darren said:


> University's have only published results by student number for years now for these exact reasons. Maybe assigning every entrant a number so they can see how they went against others. Easy enough to reveal your number to your mates if you wish.
> 
> BTW: I still get a ribbing about my 10/50 for my cherry lambic
> cheers
> ...



did you no chill that lambic darren. do you know it could have got infected.....maybe thats why it was judged down :lol:  

cheers


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## bigfridge (1/11/07)

Darren said:


> University's have only published results by student number for years now for these exact reasons. Maybe assigning every entrant a number so they can see how they went against others. Easy enough to reveal your number to your mates if you wish.
> 
> BTW: I still get a ribbing about my 10/50 for my cherry lambic
> 
> ...



Darren,

I wonder at times if anyone actually reads what is written in a thread before they comment or argue.

I posted at the beginning that NSW has done this for years. You can see last years results here. The 2005 results are also available.


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## Linz (1/11/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> Scotty, that sounds suspiciously similar to the old style of Homebrew comps run by most Local agricultural shows.
> Categories consisted of
> Lager, dark Ale, Pale Ale, Stout and ginger beer, with no Styles as such, the main judging points being aroma clarity ect and the main catch cry for a good beer was "I'd drink that no problems" perfect score :lol: .
> 
> ...



But Pro brewers aren't looking for feedback to 'improve' their techniques or ingredient choices

Home brewers are; and thats where BJCP assists.

The other method does nothing but give bragging rights if you manage to pull off the top gong(see Marketing dept get spending increase!)


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## /// (1/11/07)

Linz said:


> But Pro brewers aren't looking for feedback to 'improve' their techniques or ingredient choices
> 
> Home brewers are; and thats where BJCP assists.
> 
> The other method does nothing but give bragging rights if you manage to pull off the top gong(see Marketing dept get spending increase!)



Well this fella has wanted more feedback from the Pro comps entered, and this perhaps is where the timber begins to splinter. A few weeks ago it was a numbers game and thats tops for the process of getting thru the work and an award to slot into a press release. But for the HB side, part of the nicety is getting back the notes and having a look thru comments when the score sheets are received. 

So, are we looking at getting thru the work with tight parameters quickly of specific detail or are we looking to provide a service to the entrants relating to their entries and the quality of the work done. And i think that might be where the answer lies, when the 'money shot' is demanded ...

And speaking of shots, cheers to Gerard, reckon i'd also rather be chasing a little white ball than judging beer ... as there is always a beer at the end of golf but seldom golf at the end of a beer comp...

Scotty


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## Trough Lolly (2/11/07)

/// said:


> <<snip>>
> But for the HB side, part of the nicety is getting back the notes and having a look thru comments when the score sheets are received.
> <<snip>>



Couldn't agree more! 
Years ago I entered my first comp....never got a score sheet...never heard anything.

...haven't entered a comp since.


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