# Effects Of Cold Break On Ferment?



## schooey (25/10/09)

I have just swapped over from using an immersion chiller to a plate chiller, mainly because I don't have a pool to draw my chilling water from and return it too, so I was either dumping an hours worth of chill water on the lawn, which quite frankly didn't really need it, or just letting it run down the drain, which seemed a huge waste when so many peopl are on water restrictions..

Anyway, when I used the IC, all the cold break was left in the kettle, now with the chill plate, the break ends up in the fermenter as you can see by this piccie from tonight's brew...





My question is; Does this have any adverse effect? I know plenty of peopl use chill plates, but is there something special I need to know? Just curious of the science behind it if anyone can help.... (Yes I did have a search for 10 minutes or so before posting this topic)

Cheers in advance

Schooey


----------



## pokolbinguy (26/10/09)

Interesting...I for one would be keen to know if this has any adverse effects.....as I'm sure others would be keen to find out aswell.


----------



## Bribie G (26/10/09)

You would think with the number of times this has been raised, and the number of years this forum has been going we should have a definitive answer on this by now. What do the commercial breweries and micros do?


----------



## MHB (26/10/09)

This is going to be a typical "Brewers" answer Maybe.

I like what Kunze has to say about cold break, paraphrased, it isn't a problem unless there is so much cold break that it becomes a problem by coating the yeast, up until then it's a vital yeast nutrient, and that the only people who have a problem with excessive amounts of cold break are those brewers forced to use "inferior malt" (sic 6 row) or excessive amounts of unmalted adjunct.

Don't think there is any problem with what's in the picture, and I get a real kick out of watching all the stages a beer goes through, probably why I like glass fermenters, more fun than a lava lamp.

MHB


----------



## matti (26/10/09)

No impact at all if remaining wort is clear.
Cold break falling fully out of suspension is a sign of a good intense boil and correct pH.
MHB is on the money.

For those who filter it won't even affect the clarity of finished beer.


----------



## newguy (26/10/09)

+1 to what MHB and matti said. I use a CFC and my cold break ends up in my carboys too, but I never worry about it. The owner of a local micro told me that he once employed a brewer who did everything possible to minimise the cold break in the fermenter, which usually involved one or two racking stages before pitching. Every batch that guy brewed ended up being a stuck fermentation (wouldn't attenuate). He wasn't employed long. Once he was gone and they reverted to their old way (cold break in fermenter), their batches came out normally again.


----------



## Screwtop (26/10/09)

Like others have said, haven't been able to find a definitive when it comes to this subject. But may be able to suggest an process which will reduce the amount of break. Connect up your PC prior to flame out and pump boiling wort through it and return to the kettle as some small breweries do. Either plumb in a return or make up an over the edge type out of copper pipe. Have the return at the bottom of the kettle with a 90 bend and an arm length or about 100mm curved a little against the side of the kettle. I connect up and start pumping at full valve opening 20 min before flame out to sanitise the PC (has already been cleaned in place using PBW after previous use) without chilling liquid flow. At flame out start the flow of your chilling liquid and continue for 20 min. Using a March Pump this is enough time to form a central collection of break and hop material. Then switch the wort from the return to the kettle to the fermenter, I then back off the flow rate of the wort using the valve and the wort chills much quicker (this is when I put ice in the pre chiller). This process adds 20 min to your brewday but the whirlpooling and chilling of the wort during recirculation to around 60C gives a nice central pile of stuff in the kettle very similar to your pic.

Hope you find this helpful,

Screwy


----------



## schooey (26/10/09)

Cheers for the advice, fellas, very helpful indeed... One day I'm gonna lash out and buy a copy of Kunze... And thanks, Screwy, sounds like something I might look into, cheers... :icon_cheers:


----------



## floppinab (26/10/09)

MHB said:


> I like what Kunze has to say about cold break, paraphrased, it isn't a problem unless there is so much cold break that it becomes a problem by coating the yeast,



I'll +1 on that as I have had the odd occasion where the volume of break interrupted the ferment. The break I had in those occasions did not settle at all well (unlike your pic schooey) and was sitting up as high as half way up the fermenter. The yeast I had tended to settle on top of it and I ended up with a brew with the top half of the fermenter fermenting and the bottom half still at OG. Even a bit of fermenter agitation wouldn't budge it, I had hit it with a sterilised spoon and after that it fermented out OK.
I tend to filter most of my lighter beers and inevitably rack to secondary everything else (after a crash chill of the primary in both cases to try and "pull down" the break/yeast) to eventually get rid of it in the resultant brew.

Another issue it causes is some uncertainty about repitching. I'm never quite sure how much yeast I've got in there and therefore how much to maintain, not to mention throwing in another brew with another wack of break, you end up losing quite a bit of beer in the break.


----------



## Guest Lurker (26/10/09)

I use an immersion chiller. But, I do double batches, and I am not at all careful about draining the kettle. The first fermenter is pretty much clear of break. The second fermenter gets nearly all the break as I have abandoned all removal methods and drain as much as I can. The two fermenters get the same pitch rate, fermentation conditions...and try as I might, I can find no difference between the beer from each fermenter.


----------



## Asher (26/10/09)

Guest Lurker said:


> ...and try as I might, I can find no difference between the beer from each fermenter.



GL,

What about the crausen rings on the fermwnters? Is there any difference in the way they look/stick etc. 
I thought that this is where allot of the cold break ends up

Asher


----------



## floppinab (26/10/09)

Asher said:


> GL,
> 
> What about the crausen rings on the fermwnters? Is there any difference in the way they look/stick etc.
> I thought that this is where allot of the cold break ends up
> ...



No major issue in my experience Asher, very little difference to a non-break ferment.

One other thing that comes to mind though is the difficulty in getting a hydro reading amongst all that break. I find it very tricky with all that muck in there.


----------



## Guest Lurker (26/10/09)

Asher said:


> GL,
> 
> What about the crausen rings on the fermwnters? Is there any difference in the way they look/stick etc.
> I thought that this is where allot of the cold break ends up
> ...



Good point. This is a batch of pale ale, I was short on volume and all the break went into the second fermenter. I didnt bother marking which was which, but these both had a pack of US05 pitched. The flash makes it hard to see, but with light coming through the fermenter, I would guess the left krausen is maybe twice as thick as the right. Although the difference seems small compared to the volume of break that went in. Next time I will keep track of which is which.


----------



## brettprevans (26/10/09)

i hate the idea of wasted wort so i try and get as much out of my kettle as possible,. this of course results in a lot of cold break going into the fermentor. doesnt seem to worry my beers. it should just be food for yeast. you could always rack the wort off the cold break once it settles if you want. or use a racking cane from your kettle to the fermentor.


----------



## raven19 (26/10/09)

Great thread this one. I am keenly interested, as I happen to have a cube of Belgian Pale with a heap of break in the no chill cube.... slightly off topic, as its hot and cold break together... but break nonetheless.  



Guest Lurker said:


> ...and try as I might, I can find no difference between the beer from each fermenter.



This is good to read. Mine will be two different yeasts so cannot do a side by side comparison.



citymorgue2 said:


> i hate the idea of wasted wort so i try and get as much out of my kettle as possible...



+1 here too! Drain the lot I say!


----------



## DanRayner (26/10/09)

Heya,

Richard's (at the Wig&Pen) system for dropping out the cold break and producing a clear unfermented wort is so good that after all's said and done and the clear wort has been transferred to the fermenter he goes and shovels out some of the trub and puts it back into the unfermented wort as it is full of excellent nutrients for yeast growth.

The pick looks great - nice separation of denatured proteins from your wort - that's what a fast cold break is all about!

cheerio,

D


----------



## floppinab (26/10/09)

DanRayner said:


> Heya,
> 
> Richard's (at the Wig&Pen) system for dropping out the cold break and producing a clear unfermented wort is so good



Could you explain a bit more there Dan, be interested to hear it.


----------



## rwmingis (26/10/09)

Just subscribing to thread... Am well keen to hear about Wig&Pen's system.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (26/10/09)

Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.

My theory on cold break is that really - most home brewers are transferring the majority of the cold break into their fermenters regardless of how they chill. The particle size in cold break is just so small... that the amount of time we give our wort to whirlpool and settle rests - just isn't sufficient for any great portion of the cold break to actually settle out. The time for cold break to settle out effectively - is in the range of multiple hours. I think that mostly, what happens is that when people IM chill - they simply have a longer period of undisturbed rest time - and they get a better settling of _hot_ break. Only the biggest floccs of cold break are being left behind, the rest is teeny tiny particles in suspension and hardly even makes the wort cloudy to look at.

I think that the standard whirlpool/rest/transfer routine for a CF or plate chiller transfers ALL of the cold break, and a reasonable amount of hot break as well - the IM regime transfers the majority of cold break and a lesser amount of hotbreak. The difference people notice, is mostly that difference in teh amount of hot break.

Looking at your picture - I say that thats mostly hot break. Cold break is more a kind of dirty grey/brown colour and that all looks like clear/white hotbreak to me. When you see krausen rising and it brings up that brown goo along with it... a lot of that is cold break that rises with the C02 during initial fermentation.

Or thats what I reckon anyway.

Thirsty


----------



## fraser_john (26/10/09)

Darned if I can find it now, but I read somewhere that some German lager/pilsner brewers centrifuge out the cold break before pitching.

start edit....

found it http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi....2/barchet.html

end edit....


----------



## schooey (26/10/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.
> 
> My theory on cold break is that really - most home brewers are transferring the majority of the cold break into their fermenters regardless of how they chill. The particle size in cold break is just so small... that the amount of time we give our wort to whirlpool and settle rests - just isn't sufficient for any great portion of the cold break to actually settle out. The time for cold break to settle out effectively - is in the range of multiple hours. I think that mostly, what happens is that when people IM chill - they simply have a longer period of undisturbed rest time - and they get a better settling of _hot_ break. Only the biggest floccs of cold break are being left behind, the rest is teeny tiny particles in suspension and hardly even makes the wort cloudy to look at.
> 
> ...



You could be very well right on there, TB...

- I used a whole whirlfloc in that batch of 21L, which, if I recall is only supposed to need half a tablet
- It didn't spend a lot of time in the kettle after whirlpool, somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes
- Most of that break in real life is a creamy white fluffy colour, not grey looking
- and lastly, it's only just got a krausen forming now, and it has that grey looking scum on top with it, although some of the big fluffy clumps have come to the top too

So next question, if there is a majority of hot break in there, as well as some cold break, is there any difference to my above question? Do they need to be treated differently, or is it the same thing; As long as they don't overtake the yeast, it's no biggie?

and Cheers for the help, TB


----------



## floppinab (26/10/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.
> 
> Or thats what I reckon anyway.
> 
> Thirsty



Mmmmmm, velly velly interesting. As a serial kettle fininger and, although I can manage through the volume of break that schooey has shown here, I would love to see less of it in the fermenter (I no chill). Are you suggesting to use less???? or no kettle finings at all to avoid this. Will particular type of fining produce a different result (I use kopperfloc)???
Also does the quality of the run-off have an impact here i.e. if you have a very cloudy run-off/poor lautering will that increase the volume of breaks you are getting???

So many questions................


----------



## Thirsty Boy (26/10/09)

I reckon use less - not none.

Remember, kettle finings don't make the break happen more effectively - all they do is make the particles of break clump together so they sink faster and you dont need to rest your whirlpool for as long. So you can get the same result without finings... it just takes longer.

Yes - turbid wort from the lauter tun will effect the amount of stuff left behind in the whirpool - its not extra break... but its extra gunk thats precipitated out of the boil and is all mixed in. Me - I dont believe that turbid wort (eve very turbid wort) _into_ the kettle is an issue - as long as the boil does its job and the wort coming out is not turbid. I dont care about cold break - but firmly believe that as little as possible hot break should make it into the fermenter.

tb


----------



## notung (26/10/09)

floppinab said:


> No major issue in my experience Asher, very little difference to a non-break ferment.
> 
> One other thing that comes to mind though is the difficulty in getting a hydro reading amongst all that break. I find it very tricky with all that muck in there.



I remember reading in some other thread that the SG of cold break material is basically the same as the SG of your surrounding wort, therefore it would not effect accuracy of hydrometer readings. Does that sound correct or is it perhaps fanciful?


----------



## floppinab (27/10/09)

notung said:


> I remember reading in some other thread that the SG of cold break material is basically the same as the SG of your surrounding wort, therefore it would not effect accuracy of hydrometer readings. Does that sound correct or is it perhaps fanciful?



Doesn't sound too fanciful notung, what I tend to find is that it increases the viscosity of the sample, in some cases quite severly and due to that there's a tendancy for it to "hold up" the hydro. I try to bounce it around a bit to find the mean point but it's tricky. I've just kegged English style bitter and it does seen to a have a big malt kick/residual sweetness and I'm wondering if I put it away a bit early based on the last hydro sample which was full of break.


----------



## schooey (27/10/09)

Well it's fermenting away nicely at the moment, and so much for all that break being settled to the bottom...  I took a video to show how active the ferment is, and how much the break is being roused, you can see it  on youtube. I guess this is the attraction of glass carboys for me, you can see exactly what is happening.


----------



## clean brewer (27/10/09)

schooey said:


> Well it's fermenting away nicely at the moment, and so much for all that break being settled to the bottom...  I took a video to show how active the ferment is, and how much the break is being roused, you can see it  on youtube. I guess this is the attraction of glass carboys for me, you can see exactly what is happening.




Thats mad hey, I want a Glass Carboy now...  

:icon_offtopic: How much heat would that sort of fermentation create, Im thinking that setting my Fridgemate at 18 deg for Ales could be too high with fermentation like that going on?

:icon_cheers: CB


----------



## muckanic (27/10/09)

schooey said:


> So next question, if there is a majority of hot break in there, as well as some cold break, is there any difference to my above question? Do they need to be treated differently, or is it the same thing; As long as they don't overtake the yeast, it's no biggie?



I have found that fermenting hot break (and, worse, fermenting on the grain) results in more sulphides being produced. Whether that scrubs out or not is a technique issue.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (27/10/09)

fraser_john said:


> Darned if I can find it now, but I read somewhere that some German lager/pilsner brewers centrifuge out the cold break before pitching.
> 
> start edit....
> 
> ...



There's a few different techniques - centrifuge, racking off the cold break (either before or after yeast pitching) or pulling it out of the cone anyway - filtration and bubbling Co2 through the wort and skimming it off the top.

If you no-chill... you can just leave it in the cube, but its a bastard to transfer the wort without stirring it up.

Those crazy Germans are pretty much the only ones who worry about it though - and we all know what shit beer they make...... hmmm


----------



## tommygun (20/12/09)

Im planning to use a immersion chiller for the first time and was wondering if say a muslin or cloth material (boiled or soaked in a no-rinse steriliser) would be enough to filter hops and most of the break out? Does anyone else use this method to filter break other than whirlpooling and siphoning?


----------



## Gavo (20/12/09)

tommygun said:


> Im planning to use a immersion chiller for the first time and was wondering if say a muslin or cloth material (boiled or soaked in a no-rinse steriliser) would be enough to filter hops and most of the break out? Does anyone else use this method to filter break other than whirlpooling and siphoning?



I am a no chiller and just whirlpool and drain into the cube, all of what goes in the cube then goes into the fermenter. If I used a chiller I still would only drop is straight in the fermenter after whirlpooling. It all settles out at the end of the ferment and I still get clear beer.


Gavo.


----------

