# That ' Home Brew' Taste.



## Dave70 (5/12/08)

You know the one I mean?
You stand there dispensing your latest creation to mates and tell them to give an honest,critical opinion ( like they need to be told )
"Yeah its good mate, but it still tastes a little.. home brewish" - them you punch him in the gut's...
But realy, which part of the process is responsable for it and how do you get rid of it?
It's still early day's for me and things are improving, but if theres one thing I'm determined to do it's rid my beers of that singnature aftertaste.

cheers


----------



## Supra-Jim (5/12/08)

You say it's early days, how are you brewing? Kit n Kilo? Kits n bits? Extract?

Personally i find the kit and kilo bres definitely have a 'home brew' taste. Since moving to full extract brews (and specialty grains), this flavour has definitely been very much reduced.

Also what do your mates normally drink? If the home brewed offering is significantly different (i.e. a bavarian wit) and they swear by jugs of Tooheys New, then unfortunately there is no hope and you need new friends!!  

Seriously thougfh i have found those with limited beer palates tend to always struggle with variety of flavours from home brew.


----------



## bigholty (5/12/08)

You hide it under copious amounts of late hops!!
The difficulty is that the kinds of beer that most of our 'uninitiated' mates are used to drinking are very light in colour and flavour with very little hopping. When you make this kind of beer yourself, any subtle differences from the 'norm' are very noticeable, ie, that homebrew taste. I reckon the first things to do to reduce it are;
- Select a good neutral brewing yeast (eg, US-05) in favour of the one that comes with the kit and control the ferment temperature to the low end of the range, like below 20C (I'm talking ales here, lagers are another story).
- Minimise use of cane sugar. Opt for dried or liquid malt extract. Always use fresh ingredients.
- Add some specialty grains or late hops.

I think that 'homebrew taste' is generally attributed to inferior yeasts supplied with kits, high ferment temperatures and excessive use of cane sugar.


----------



## reviled (5/12/08)

I found that I still couldnt really get rid of the "homebrew taste" with extract and grains, it still had a slight "twang", not as bad as kits... But IMO, the easiest way is to go AG, then you can make beers in the same ballpark as really good commercial beers...


----------



## brettprevans (5/12/08)

you'd have to be more specific about which "homebrew" taste your meaning.

- theres a 'kit twang' that comes from old stock of tins of goo. easily fixed by using fresh tins of goo.
- theres diacetyl or green apples taste which the main culprit is from brewing at too high a temp (thanks crappy Coopers instructions for ruining generations of homebrewers). fixed by brewing at better temps for the specific yeast.
- then there just poorly made beer. solution - make better beer.
- then you'll get knobs who decide that any sort of beer with flavour tastes like homebrew. idiots. just punch them in the guts! seriously if this is the case then just give them a hardcore commercial belgium or saison and show them that realy beer has flavour and isnt served at 2C with no taste (aka megaswill)


EDIT: I recon the 'homebrew' taste is an overrated phenomenon. Ive onyl ever had 2 beers that tasted like homebrew (excl the crap I brewed 10 years ago - pure coopers goo). other than that most of my K&K and extract beers have got great reviews and never a mention of twang.



reviled said:


> really good commercial beers...


There's such a thing?!


----------



## reviled (5/12/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> There's such a thing?!



lowl, I wasnt meaning Fosters or Lion gayness, but there are certainly some decent commercial Belgian beers..

I guess Craft beers and Micros dont count as "commercial"?


----------



## Katherine (5/12/08)

Im very selective who I offer a home brew... something I got off my father! The kit twang as already being mentioned. As a all grainer there is still a certain taste in my beer, a few people say it tastes like that Little Creatures, even though it doesnt. It's a taste I like. Others don't. 

It's also how it's presented, and what style of beer you serve.


----------



## brettprevans (5/12/08)

reviled said:


> lowl, I wasnt meaning Fosters or Lion gayness, but there are certainly some decent commercial Belgian beers..
> 
> I guess Craft beers and Micros dont count as "commercial"?


I was kidding man i knew what you meant. i was pulling you beer tap (leg)


----------



## QIK86 (5/12/08)

Unfortunately I'm blessed with predominantly megaswilling friends who, as mentioned above, consider anything with malt character or late hops to have a weird flavour. Quite disheartening, especially considering my ever increasing taste for hops. :icon_drool2: 

I do brew beer that I enjoy, and always will, but it would be nice to be able to share some with mates and have them appreciate your efforts.

Ah well, more for me I suppose. :icon_cheers:


----------



## reviled (5/12/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> I was kidding man i knew what you meant. i was pulling you beer tap (leg)



ROFL, too early in the morning buddy  Even tho its lunch time here :lol:


----------



## Dave70 (5/12/08)

Supra-Jim said:


> You say it's early days, how are you brewing? Kit n Kilo? Kits n bits? Extract?
> 
> Personally i find the kit and kilo bres definitely have a 'home brew' taste. Since moving to full extract brews (and specialty grains), this flavour has definitely been very much reduced.
> 
> ...



Ive been getting my kits from Country Brewer, so at this stage I basicaly say ' I want to make that one' and he pushes a bunch of ingredients across the counter. 
*Tin of gooey brown stuff.
*crystal
*fuggles...and so on.
Not very high tech, but not quite Big W either.

It,s not bad by any stretch,but theres allways room for improvement.

Yep,Im all about execelence me....


----------



## wyatt_girth (5/12/08)

I have read somewhere (i know its hearsay not experience, though I think it was John Palmer) the extract/kit twang becomes more obvious as it ages on the shelf - prior to becoming your precious nectar. The obvious soultion is to find a home brew shop that has a good turnover and fresh ingredients-like anything I guess. I think liquid extract is more likely, IMO, to give more twang for your buck. I tried my first Morgan's kit a little while back and it has no obvious twangage in my final product. I used it for a LCPA attempt and was extremely happy with it. Prior to that I was mainly using Coopers kits and had varying success.


----------



## Supra-Jim (5/12/08)

Wyatt, i think you're correct. The longer the extract sits in a tin, the darker it becomes. There is some reaction occuring with an enzyme/protien/dovy-wacker that starts with M***** (it's friday folks, i attend work but my brain is elsewhere). This reaction increases over time, hence the recommendation is to get the freshest malt extract you can get.

Dave70, is sounds like you're on the right track with tins of goo and extra goodies, what types of beers are you brewing and sharing with your mates?


----------



## Adamt (5/12/08)

Supra-Jim said:


> M*****



I'd like to solve the puzzle....

Maillard!


----------



## Supra-Jim (5/12/08)

Thanks Adam, please select your prize for the second shelf, or you can risk it all and play on in the next round  

Another point quickly copied from John Palmer:

The freshness of the extract is important, particularly for the syrup. Beer brewed with extract syrup more than a year old will often have a blunt, stale, even soapy flavor to it. This is caused by the oxidation of the fatty acid compounds in the malt. Dry malt extract has a better shelf life than the liquid because the extra de-hydration slows the pertinent chemical reactions.


----------



## Bribie G (5/12/08)

I've used Morgans Kits and haven't had that 'kit twang', but because they are more heavy in flavour than the equivalent Coopers kits, I have made a couple of horrendous mistakes by trying to beef them up with specialty grains and extra hops and ended up with excessively dark, muddy and eye-poppingly bitter beers. Some of their tins like Royal Oak Amber and Australian Draught are best left alone in the hopping and dark malt department - they can stand on their own two feet.

If using a kit now, I tend to go for the lightest possible - for example a Morgans Canadian or a good old Coopers Lager original series. This gives me far more leeway to add subtle amounts of hops, steeping grains etc. And I always chuck the kit yeast or use it for ginger beer. I find that Nottingham does a great job and settles out well, and recultures well. Also the temperature is important, I try to keep below 20 degrees which is hard in SEQ at the moment. 

_//beginning of rant_ <_< 
IMHO (dons flameproof suit) another source of 'twang' is excessive use of light dried malt extract. Lets face it, LDME wasn't invented for the benefit of us home brewers. Whilst nowadays of course, a fair amount is used by us, the majority goes into things like Milo bars, Sustagen gold, Maltesers, Sarah Lee cakes, Mars Bars etc etc. 

It's a lot cheaper than buying kilo or kilo and a half tins of liquid malt extract from Coopers or Morgans, but I'm becoming increasingly iffy about LDME. The best received and cleanest K&K I ever made was brew number one in June that was a Morgans Queensland Pilsener and a can of Morgans light malt liquid and a Saaz teabag. And it was cool at the time, fermented out at around 16* And it cost nearly $30 which I consider rude for a K&K

Recently I made two brews a few weeks apart, both of them with a coopers lager tin, same hops, same yeast (Notto). In the first one I used heaps of LDME, in the second one I did a partial mash with just an English (Bairds) pale malt and added dreaded cane sugar instead of the LDME and it turned out a really nice beer with no 'cidery' twang, which I had feared. 

In comparison the LDME brew is muddy, dark - a Coopers Lager should not turn out the colour of an English Burton bitter. (I think the 'L' in LDME varies from batch to batch) 
The use of the sugar suited the particular style of the beer but I wouldn't even contemplate it with dark mild or an English bitter etc as it would definitely thin out the beer and stand out like the dog's proverbials.

//_ end of anti LDME rant._  

However at the end of the day as Reviled said the way to completely dispense with home brew twang and set yourself freeeee is to go AG, as I am currently doing.


----------



## Bizier (5/12/08)

BribieG said:


> //_ end of anti LDME rant._



I'll come into bat for the LDME. I think it is OK to 'top up' your recipe, as you would with sugar in a K+K. But you don't use it as the lynch pin of your recipe, because it will just taste like LDME. You can't make a malt focused beer without going at least partial or AG. It is also entirely unsuitable for beers lighter than a gold/amber - it is just too dark.

What temperature are you fermenting at Dave? What is your process with the yeast? What yeast are you using?
I think that those kits should be able to make a decent beer if you manage the process well.


----------



## Bribie G (5/12/08)

Bizier said:


> I'll come into bat for the LDME. I think it is OK to 'top up' your recipe, as you would with sugar in a K+K. But you don't use it as the lynch pin of your recipe, because it will just taste like LDME. You can't make a malt focused beer without going at least partial or AG. It is also entirely unsuitable for beers lighter than a gold/amber - it is just too dark.
> 
> What temperature are you fermenting at Dave? What is your process with the yeast? What yeast are you using?
> I think that those kits should be able to make a decent beer if you manage the process well.



+1, I was referring to 'excessive' use of LDME, like you say trying to make it the lynchpin, for example trying to do an all malt brew and putting a tin plus a kilo and a half of LDME in the mix as I have done in the past. Personally when doing Kits n bits, my more drinkable and reliable brews have been along the lines of:

Tin of something light such as Queenland Bitter or Coopers Lager
500g LDME
750 dex
finishing hops such as cluster or saaz
Better yeast, eg ale yeast or lager yeast from Fermentis, or a Nottingham

Ferment below 20*

Gelatine finings to drop the yeast (clarity is another common whinge from non brewers as they invariably hold the glass up to the light)
Polyclar to get rid of chill haze. Some kits can chuck bad chill hazes.

Dave, I bet that if you try something similar to the above, to see if it's to your taste, you'll end up with something 'twang free' and very quaffable without breaking the bank.


----------



## Swinging Beef (5/12/08)

I stopped brewing for about 5 years because I was sick of that home brew taste.
I used to do K&K for about 10 years, but as my tasted developed and I stopped buying VB and Carlton and tended to only buy German Lagers or Aussie Craft beers or Belgians, I found my own crap intolerable.

When I was talked back into brewing by a commercial brewer, the first thing he told me to do was drop the brew temp and use a better yeast.
It made a HUGE difference.

That was almost a year ago... I passed thru the extract boil phaze then turned to the dark side about 3 months ago.


----------



## Dave70 (5/12/08)

S
Dave70 said:


> My first crack at kegging was with Kilkenny which I succeded in freezing solid,( it tasted fizzy & flat at the same time) so I cant realy blame the kit and Ive got a Sierra Nevada in the secondary at the moment.That one's looking good and I even chilled and drank a little after I took the SG the other night, flat but good.
> Before that it was garden variety Coopers kits from Coles made with.... sugar.....


----------



## Jase71 (5/12/08)

Dave70 said:


> My first crack at kegging was with Kilkenny which I succeded in freezing solid,



I think you took the advice of 'keep the temperature low' to extremes there, mate


----------



## Supra-Jim (5/12/08)

Mmmmm... Sierra Nevada :icon_drool2: What was the recipe for that one?


----------



## cdbrown (5/12/08)

.... and the kilkenny recipe mate.


----------



## buttersd70 (5/12/08)

cd

Never tried this, so cant vouch for how close it is, but this is the Kilkenny copy off the old grumpys site....

View attachment 23023


----------



## Dave70 (5/12/08)

Supra-Jim said:


> Mmmmm... Sierra Nevada :icon_drool2: What was the recipe for that one?




One for you.
 1 x X-TRACT Pale Ale

150g Munich Grain

2 x 12g Cascade Finishing Hop (Dry Method)
​


----------



## Dave70 (5/12/08)

cdbrown said:


> .... and the kilkenny recipe mate.



And one for you.

1 x X-TRACT Bitter

500g Maltodextrin

150g Crystal Grain

1 x 12g Fuggles Finishing Hop (Dry Method)

*Make up to 18 litres



​


----------



## The Big Burper (5/12/08)

BribieG said:


> _//beginning of rant_ <_<
> IMHO (dons flameproof suit) another source of 'twang' is excessive use of light dried malt extract. Lets face it, LDME wasn't invented for the benefit of us home brewers. Whilst nowadays of course, a fair amount is used by us, the majority goes into things like Milo bars, Sustagen gold, Maltesers, Sarah Lee cakes, Mars Bars etc etc.
> 
> 
> Recently I made two brews a few weeks apart, both of them with a coopers lager tin, same hops, same yeast (Notto). In the first one I used heaps of LDME, in the second one I did a partial mash with just an English (Bairds) pale malt and added dreaded cane sugar instead of the LDME and it turned out a really nice beer with no 'cidery' twang, which I had feared.




I can attest for the Bairds brew, as BG came round to my place last Wed and we had a few ales. My brew (unfortunately) was made using a kilo of ldme and it was not up to my usual standard. The best k and k brews (IMHO) seem to be made with a brew booster with 250g malt, 250 dried corn syrup, and 500g dextrose. A teabag of Goldings also makes a difference.

BB


----------



## flattop (5/12/08)

+1 for yeast and stale kits.
My first Cerveza tastes home brewish (1k dex no ldme), although as it conditions in the bottle the taste is diminishing.
I brewed an ESB kit (more than twice the price) and it tastes great. (ESB use better yeast for a start).
I have tried a few different kits since and found the Cerveza was the worst for aftertaste.
Currently brewing the same Cerveza with a little LME (200gms) and with US-05 to see what difference it makes.
This is my last brew for the year.

Which brings me to the next point. I have about 2 litres of LME and 2 kilo's of LDME sitting in storage which i wont use now for at least a month.
If this contributes to the aftertaste what is the best storage method to save it?


----------



## bigfridge (5/12/08)

I have spoken to a number of brewing scientists about this and the opinions came down into two main areas:

- Malt extract is not boiled, but reduced by low pressure evaporation. So all the things that are activated by temperature and boiled off in a normal boil are trapped in the extract.

- The presence of invertase. When you add Sucrose (ie plain white sugar) the yeast cell excretes invertase (an enzyme) to split the Sucrose into Glucose and Fructose, which can then be taken into the yeast cell for fermentation. The production and excretion of Invertase can lead to some tase effects.

These two flavour effects are not noticable in fresh extract, but when you get old extract or if it is oxidised or stored at higher temperatures they react to become 'that HB taste'.

HTH

Dave


----------



## Adamt (5/12/08)

bigfridge said:


> - Malt extract is not boiled, but reduced by low pressure evaporation. So all the things that are activated by temperature and boiled off in a normal boil are trapped in the extract.



The mash liquor is boiled as usual before evaporation...


----------



## buttersd70 (5/12/08)

bigfridge said:


> - The presence of invertase. When you add Sucrose (ie plain white sugar) the yeast cell excretes invertase (an enzyme) to split the Sucrose into Glucose and Fructose, which can then be taken into the yeast cell for fermentation. The production and excretion of Invertase can lead to some tase effects.



This is a big thing for me....it's why I bang on so often about the evils of sugar. (or sugaz as some ex members used to say  ). Some people are very sensetive to the flavours caused by invertase. Others, not so much.


----------



## bigfridge (5/12/08)

Adamt said:


> The mash liquor is boiled as usual before evaporation...



True, but the damage is done. The compounds not removed by the lack of boil are involved with complex reactions that produce the HBT. Boiling later cannot undo these reactions.

Dave


----------



## MHB (5/12/08)

Based on 10 years of running home brew shops, extensive study and lots of research (a lot of it leading to intense hangovers) I have reached the conclusion that :-

*90% of the bad in any beer is down to crappy yeast management.*

I will say that I am proud that in my shop last year the top 3 selling beer ingredients were Saf yeast as were 5 of the top 10 sellers.
US-05 being the biggest seller by units; you have to go down to number 7 to find a kit.

I really mean this if you want to make better beer get control of your yeast.

MHB


----------



## flattop (5/12/08)

So what is the answer, i don't want to brew pig swill and i really don't have the time for AG. 
I want a K&K that i can fiddle round the edges a bit (perhaps DME and dry hop) but basically output a quality brew at a reasonable price. 
So far the only thing i have had close to this is ESB kits which are great but all the work is done already.

*edit, just read the last post.... I heard it's the yeast also which i why i am trying US-05.


----------



## debineko (5/12/08)

Katie said:


> Im very selective who I offer a home brew...



It can work the other way as well. Like my brother has always worked in hospitality and "knows" his wines/beers. But there's no way he's getting near my homebrew because I know it would kill all the fun for me. I enjoy brewing and enjoying drinking what I've brewed (and what others have brewed if they let me), knowing full well I'm not competing with the big boys. I don't need or want my beers to be given the evil eye, except by fellow homebrewers perhaps.

So if it doesn't taste homebrew-ish (in the negative sense of the word) to you, then go ahead and punch 'em in the guts. :angry:


----------



## daemon (6/12/08)

MHB said:


> Based on 10 years of running home brew shops, extensive study and lots of research (a lot of it leading to intense hangovers) I have reached the conclusion that :-
> 
> *90% of the bad in any beer is down to crappy yeast management.*


As a brewer with only 12 months of experience, I would have to agree. I did the basics, started with the standard Coopers kit and brewed the Lager with the kit yeast and kit sugar. Result was something like a beer but certainly nothing I really wanted to share or show off. After a bit of reading, I tried the Morgans Golden Pilsner kit but with Dextrose. Better, but still had that homebrew taste and still wasn't overly flavoursome. 

Next (well, next drinkable!) was a Coopers Real Ale kit with BE2 (again, little bit more reading as to what should be in a beer) with some Cascade hops. Result was much better, one that I was willing to share with others! I still used the Coopers kit yeast but kept the temps down. It was better, but still had the standard Coopers yeast taste that took months to go away.

I then found the US-05 yeast, and all of the problems of funny tastes were solved! Even basic brews of the Coopers kit + BE2 + extra hops (pellets) combined with the US-05 yeast gave excellent results. Sure it doesn't produce award winning beers but they are very drinkable, reasonable flavour and a very clean taste. No "homebrew" taste!!

If there are new(ish) brewers reading this thread, here's what I recommend (in order of the improvement):

1. Use a better yeast, US-05 is great in many ales and even as a pseudo lager yeast. If you're worried about the extra cost, it works out to be less than 10c per stubbie extra! This will make the biggest difference to your brews. Temperature control is also important, for most ales 18 is ideal but under 22 will be fine.

2. Use something other than Sugar as the main fermentable in your brew. It can be as simple as using the Coopers Brew Enhancer 2, which is available at all the supermarkets. Ideally more malt will add more flavour and body, even 50/50 Malt/Dextrose makes a big improvement. Your LHBS shoud have this available.

3. Use some extra hops for flavour. It's cheaper (and better flavour) to buy the pellets. A popular choice is Cascade for ales and Saaz for Lagers. There's plenty of advice and suggestions in this forum! Unless you're creating an IPA, you don't need a huge amount (15g per brew makes a big difference) and you only add a little bit of additional time to the brewing process.

4. Once you've mastered the bits above, you can start to play around with steeping grains to add flavour, colour and body. Again it's not too difficult and the small amount of extra time taken makes a big difference. Even just adding some crystal malt will give you a "fresher" taste and better head retention in your beer. As little as 100g is needed for a standard brew, so it doesn't cost much extra.

This is just my opinion of course, there's thousands of posts here that you can read to get more info or multiple opinions. The beauty of homebrewing is the fact that there is so much choice!


----------



## Bribie G (6/12/08)

Totally agree about the yeast comments. If brewing in warmer climes like QLD and only able to get into the 18 to 20 range using ice bottles etc, as well as US 05 another two brilliant yeasts for kit brews including Lagers are Nottingham and Safale S 04. I've used both and they will give quicker and cleaner results than the kit yeasts. They are available from sponsors at the top of the page as well as better LHBs.

Also if you get the hang of saving and reculturing yeast they work out fairly cheap. One packet can do up to six brews - far more if you are willing to take the risk of maybe getting a dud down the track, I usually factor in a cost of about 50 c per brew when using them.


----------



## buttersd70 (6/12/08)

daemon,
I agree with what you've said, and even agree with the order you've put them in...just have one thing to add. Once you've done 3, revisit 2. Once you get the hops in there, you can increase the malt even further.


----------



## Fermented (6/12/08)

flattop said:


> My first Cerveza tastes home brewish (1k dex no ldme), although as it conditions in the bottle the taste is diminishing.


I hate to even mention that I've made cerveza, but it's part of keeping the SWMBO happy. She's learning to enjoy Chimay, Trappiste, Austrian and German wheat beers, but it will take time.

The only easy solution to cerveza not tasting utterly horrid is time. If you do a simple brew (goo, liquid light malt extract, plus either dex or LDME) then it just has to wait about a month. 

Same goes for quite a few recipes I've tried. Tastes rather nice out of the fermenter. A stubbie tester at one week of bottle fermentation tastes rather OK. Same test at two weeks is just not palatable. Test again at one month and you're starting to be in the zone. 

Brew plenty, brew often, build your stocks and let them age. If your partner is giving you crap about how much you have aging, you can point out that a slab of Asahi Super Dry is $24.50 for a six pack and >$80 for a slab - that's ten bucks a litre retail (and yes, it's crap but it goes ok with sashimi/sushi/Jap-snack-food). If you have five 21 litre batches again you can point out that you have a grand's worth of beer in aging and it only cost you $150 (or whatever your brew costs are). You're saving money and you're a hero! 

Oh, and +1 for S-04 and S-05/US-56. Quick, inexpensive and a step up from the kit yeasts. If you're game, try some Wyeast or White Labs. Costly if you're only doing a one off, but if you manage your yeast then you're in for a nice surprise.

Cheers - Fermented.

EDIT: Fixed typo.


----------



## desmogod (20/12/08)

flattop said:


> So what is the answer


My first brew was K&K with a teabag, and it turned out OK, drinkable but nothing special.
I have just cracked my first bottle from my second brew, a wheat beer, and it has turned out amazingly, you wouldn't know it was homebrew.
It's a can with some steeping grains, hops and WYeast 3068.
I have a fridge with a temp controller, which I think makes a huge difference to the finished product, and my friend is a very keen AG brewer, so getting all the info off him first helped.
I honestly think it is down to the yeast, fresh ingredients and temperature control.
I'll never go K&K again.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (20/12/08)

Why does homebrew have that homebrew taste - because you give it to people and tell them its homebrew. There is a difference between the reaction of people to your home brew, and actually making bad homebrew.
Actually bad homebrew is going to be the result of bad sanitation, less than fresh ingredients and poor yeast / fermentation.

Bad reactions to the flavour of your good homebrew are going to be about two things - the ability of your friends to differentiate between the actual presence of flavour, and bad flavour, and appearance. If its cloudy.... there is no way on gods green earth that a non-brewer is going to believe that it doesn't taste "homebrew" like.

Test em out ... see how they react to a bottle of great beer from a micro brewer - if its still homebrewy, then its them, or even just bottle of coopers red nicely rolled. If all that yeast drives them to "homebrew" comments... its them.

As for how to make your K&K better - I have a document I wrote for my brother in laws dad - a guy who's beer did indeed taste homebrewy - it might be useful to some here who haven't seen it, so I'll post again. Its about making the most of straight K&K, no hops, no improvers, no steeping grain, just getting better beer out of the K & the K

TB

View attachment Kit_Beers___Beyond_the_Instructions.doc


----------



## flattop (20/12/08)

+1 Fermented, my Cerveza's (about 4 brews) all tasted crap for the first 2-3 weeks, the first one now is quite good (for a cerveza) at around 2 months old and the one that was dry hopped and added dme tastes the funkiest and has a fantastic head retention compared to the others.... The one with US-05 yeast is still fresh (bottled a week ago) and will be tested next week but i expect a better brew from a better yeast!


----------



## achy02 (21/12/08)

flattop said:


> +1 Fermented, my Cerveza's (about 4 brews) all tasted crap for the first 2-3 weeks, the first one now is quite good (for a cerveza) at around 2 months old and the one that was dry hopped and added dme tastes the funkiest and has a fantastic head retention compared to the others.... The one with US-05 yeast is still fresh (bottled a week ago) and will be tested next week but i expect a better brew from a better yeast!


Hi flattop

Slightly off topic but I was wondering what you dry hopped the Cerveza with? I have just brewed my own and damn it does it have that homebrew cider taste! 

Ps it was a Blackrock kit with dex (no dry enzyme - 9 days in the fermenter, kept at around 20deg - tastes like shite)


----------



## flattop (21/12/08)

Sure i used kit i think 250gms dme and 1 k dex and Hersbrucker Hops which are rated at mild to semi strong. I used about 15-20gms for around 5 days.
It seems to have made the brew slightly overcarbed as a similar brew doesn't have a head like this FG was around 1006 so it wasn't the yeast per say.
I probably would go for a different hop next time with more nose and less flavor as it is quite noticeable but it may have been the kit as this was the only non coopers Cerveza i made. 
9 days is cutting it fine also, although most of my brews are 10-14 so not much more.
The Coopers Cerveza's all turned out ok after a month, before that they were pure shite. Some would say that Cerveza is shite and i have to say it's fairly flavorless, but the Ita rellies love it.
I may consider Halletauer next time.


----------



## achy02 (21/12/08)

flattop said:


> Sure i used kit i think 250gms dme and 1 k dex and Hersbrucker Hops which are rated at mild to semi strong. I used about 15-20gms for around 5 days.
> It seems to have made the brew slightly overcarbed as a similar brew doesn't have a head like this FG was around 1006 so it wasn't the yeast per say.
> I probably would go for a different hop next time with more nose and less flavor as it is quite noticeable but it may have been the kit as this was the only non coopers Cerveza i made.
> 9 days is cutting it fine also, although most of my brews are 10-14 so not much more.
> ...


I havent bottled it yet so I will give it another 5 days in the fermenter and see if I cant dry hop it with some Halletauer. Many thanks for the info. Cheers


----------



## Crusty (21/12/08)

I had previuosly done K&K for years. Same old routine of adding the goo, adding the sugar, toss it in the fermenter. Wait a couple of weeks & bottle it with a little sugar & wait 6-8 weeks for it to carbonate, then drink it. Same story every time, drinkable, but definately home brew. I have since ridded myself of any home brew tasting beers since joining this forum. Two words my friend, All Grain. Very easy to do once you get you're head around the process & let me tell you, them mates of your's won't be goin home anytime soon.
Go for it. You won't believe how good beer actually tastes after years of commercial torture. I drank a stubbie the other night at our staff christmas party & I can actually taste the preservatives or whatever it is in the beer. I used to strive to replicate a commercial tasting beer from my home brew. If I done an all grain that tasted like a commercial beer, it would end up down the sink.
Cheers,
Brian


----------



## Thirsty Boy (22/12/08)

You're doing better than me crusty - going AG didn't change my friends perception of my beer one iota - its good... for homebrew. Which is why I have formulated my opinion - it doesn't matter HOW good the homebrew is, if your friends know its homebrew, then there will be certain of them who will never ever be able to recognize it as good in its own right - only not bad, but it still tastes like HB.

Of course in my case it might just be that the homebrew isn't all that good... but thats not the way I choose to look at it.

My friends get very little of the beer I go to a lot of trouble to make.. screw em. Let em drink TED, its all they deserve.


----------



## flattop (22/12/08)

I agree AG is the cure for all woe's, but this was a K&K question..... and really the dudes doing K&K deserve answers that are not always AG.
I think if you look at Pumpy's earlier thread that all HBS are rip offs, you can see K&K has its place particularly for beginners and those who want to hone their skills before migrating to the dark side.


----------



## jimmy01 (22/12/08)

I have been doing AG for 3 years now. Still learning with every brew.

Every now and then when I am feeling a bit lazy I try a kit. I have applied the knowledge to the kit beer that I have developed from AG, but still I can't get rid of that kit twang.

Things that I have done to try and improve the kit beer:
- selected the can with the longest expiry date
- pre-boiled all the water
- added some additional hops
- used LDME instead of dextrose or brew blends
- used a better yeast including liquid yeasts
- fermented under temperature control

Still can't get rid of the twang.

Leads me to believe that the twang comes from the process used to prepare the malt syrup in the can.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## flattop (22/12/08)

I believe you are right Jimmy, from all i have read it has to do with the process to can and preserve the goo.
That said i have brews which have little or no twang. Particularly if you choose a style of goop that is not in the mainstream.
My 3K ESB Belgian Wheat has never had it. My Cerveza's lose it after a month. The ESB Smokey Belgian doesn't have it.
I made a larger with a wheat cake yeast which was standard coopers goop and that didn't have it.
But in fairness the liquid wort kit that i used definitely didn't have it either (obviously).


----------



## jimmy01 (22/12/08)

flattop said:


> I believe you are right Jimmy, from all i have read it has to do with the process to can and preserve the goo.
> That said i have brews which have little or no twang. Particularly if you choose a style of goop that is not in the mainstream.
> My 3K ESB Belgian Wheat has never had it. My Cerveza's lose it after a month. The ESB Smokey Belgian doesn't have it.
> I made a larger with a wheat cake yeast which was standard coopers goop and that didn't have it.
> But in fairness the liquid wort kit that i used definitely didn't have it either (obviously).



Hi Flattop

what brand of kit do you use for your Cerveza? Thats the style I'm often looking for when I do a kit. I have tried Brewcraft, Morgans and Coopers without success. Used S-23 for the yeast.

Cheers


----------



## reviled (22/12/08)

Crusty said:


> I had previuosly done K&K for years. Same old routine of adding the goo, adding the sugar, toss it in the fermenter. Wait a couple of weeks & bottle it with a little sugar & wait 6-8 weeks for it to carbonate, then drink it. Same story every time, drinkable, but definately home brew. I have since ridded myself of any home brew tasting beers since joining this forum. Two words my friend, All Grain. Very easy to do once you get you're head around the process & let me tell you, them mates of your's won't be goin home anytime soon.
> Go for it. You won't believe how good beer actually tastes after years of commercial torture. I drank a stubbie the other night at our staff christmas party & I can actually taste the preservatives or whatever it is in the beer. I used to strive to replicate a commercial tasting beer from my home brew. If I done an all grain that tasted like a commercial beer, it would end up down the sink.
> Cheers,
> Brian



I agree with this whereas the majority of my mates dont complain about my beer since moving to AG and a heap of them regularly try to convince me to sell it, but I also agree with Thirsty where you are allways gonna get the occassional asshole who cant describe flavour and hides behind the words "homebrewish."

My father in law told me my beer was homebrewish the other day, but when I questioned him, he couldnt tell me what he meant by that... I asked him if it had too much flavour for him, and he couldnt tell me... This is someone who drinks really expensive wine, and appreciates it, but drinks crap like Corona, and Heineken, to me that makes no sense, drink really flavourfull wine, but drink beer that tastes like water??? :huh: Whenever I drink commercial beer now all I can taste is sugar, theyre all far too sweet! <_<


----------



## quantocks (22/12/08)

a lot of you guys seem to bag Heine, I love that stuff. It's pretty decent for what's available anyway. I just polished off a case of VB, it does indeed taste extremely watery. But my brother won't touch my homebrew for some weird reason.


----------



## flattop (22/12/08)

I use Coopers, i have used another brand but the flavor was less good. In fact i find Cerveza to be flavorless but it keeps the missus happy. I think the key to reducing aftertaste with that brew is to keep fermentation temps down below 20*, use a decent amount of dme not just dex and use a yeast such as US-05 (haven't tried s-23). After that leave it in the primary for 14 days and then in the bottle for at least another month. Then you will have a clear beer that will have the minimum of aftertaste. Also remember that everyone's taste is different so what you perceive that you taste others may not. Perhaps we are our own worst critics.

Quick note, i checked S-23, recommends temps below 15*c and has fruity esters... perhaps this is not helping.
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/EN/pdf/SaflagerS-23.pdf

US-05 recommended below 24* with a crisp clean finish... perhaps the yeast is the key in your case.
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/EN/pdf/SafaleUS05.pdf


----------



## Pollux (22/12/08)

jimmy01 said:


> I have been doing AG for 3 years now. Still learning with every brew.
> 
> Every now and then when I am feeling a bit lazy I try a kit. I have applied the knowledge to the kit beer that I have developed from AG, but still I can't get rid of that kit twang.
> 
> ...



Agree to all of the above, but remember that after doing kit and bits, it's not much of a slip to land in all extract territory.....

As for improving a kit, 

- Use all malt
- Steep some speciality grains
- Use some additional flavour and aroma hops
- Use a better yeast and control the temp of the ferment...


----------



## boingk (22/12/08)

Pollux said:


> Agree to all of the above, but remember that after doing kit and bits, it's not much of a slip to land in all extract territory.....
> 
> As for improving a kit,
> 
> ...



Exactly. I'm not 100% on the all malt, but it is a good place to start. My standard throw-in consists of 500g LDME and 300g dextrose, as well as 200g of a grain suitable for the style. Or, hell, one thats not...experiments can be fun, and tasty as well. The grains and hops might sound like a lot of trouble to go to just to put down a K&K brew, but while I'm sanitising I throw a few litres of water on the lowest setting on my stove and put the grain in with it. 20min later, when my tin is busy running into the fermenter, I strain the liquid off into another saucepan, rinse the grain with hot water and throw that in with the obtained wort. Then I throw the hops in and simmer for 15-20min. Stove off, throw the lot into the fermenter. 3 or 4 days into fermentation I'll dry hop and leave it for a week. All done, bottling time 

Cheers all, keep the K&K alive - boingk


----------



## cfresh (23/12/08)

I had sworn off dextrose for some time as I thought it was contributing to the twang factor.
Another reason for my negativity towards dextrose was that my father in law uses a great deal of it to "top up" to 4.9% and he was regularly getting that terrible medicine type taste - (he believes its not a true beer unless its that strength). Now after reading a few things I might try to encourage him into using a better yeast as the kits he buys only have 5g...

To further support the yeast theory one of my best ever brews (even the swill drinkers loved it) was a Coopers Pale Ale:

1 x Coopers Pale Ale tin
1kg Brewiser Liquid Sugar!!
500g LDME
5g Glacier Hops steeped in with 500ml water for 20 mins
Recultured yeast from 2x Pale Ale stubbies.

I didnt expect much as I was using 1kg sugar (was on super special) but Im now of the opinion that the yeast made ALL the difference and no twang. Maybe ill try it with normal yeast one day but why mess with a winner.

I made an all extract brew on the weekend with LDME, Steeped Grain, and US56. So I cant wait to see the result of that given some opinions on using too much LDME in this thread.


----------



## brettprevans (23/12/08)

a bit OT but wtf is 5g of hops going to contribute to flavour? esp glacier. sweet FA I would have thought. I think my last glacier brew used about 30g and I thought it only just enough and could have used another 20g. 

Nothing wrong with K&K.


----------



## flattop (23/12/08)

Agree 5gms of hops is unlikely to balance out the sweetness of all ldme and steeped grains... but perhaps that is the flavor profile he is looking for.


----------



## brettprevans (23/12/08)

true true.


----------



## Rod (23/12/08)

I started out with K&K

then no sugar , 

used brew enhancers

moved to partials

tried BIAB , a lot of work , but good brew

Now do partials

keep the fermentation down to 18 to 20C for ales

10 to 12C for the ales

fermentation temperatures make a significant difference any thing over 22C , IMO , gives a chance of home brew taste 

don't touch anything for 3 months , 6 weeks and you are asking for the HB taste

drink most brews after 6 months , takes a while to build up stock , cheat by drinking the 3 month stuff early

some brews I have had for 12 months , heavier styles , and would not want to share them with the doubters


----------



## PostModern (23/12/08)

I've had "that homebrew taste" too. But then I've brewed kits in 6 days and had them on tap without it. I think yeast management is a big part of it.


----------



## Adamt (23/12/08)

The home-brew twang... not explicitly called that by Palmer but this is what I believe it is: 



> Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but *can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts*.



This is from here under 'Metallic'.


----------



## Brewman_ (30/12/08)

There's lots of aspects to Home Brewing that need to be mastered / understood to create a good beer. Even then if you serve a good beer to a mate that is used to drinking 30 can discount blocks, they generally are not ready for it.

But I was encouraged after a good session of Home brew recently at my place with some mates, that one of my mates pulled a party where he put on the beer. He is not a home brewer. At his party he put on the beer that included James Squire, Pilsener Urquel other imported beers and coopers, etc. In 20 years he has never done that.

He was a Hahn light drinker. The thing I took out of that was beer education was getting through. He also asked for some HB from me to bring to the party.

FNL


----------



## Nick JD (31/12/08)

Try this on your _tastes like homebrew_ friends (the ones who swill Tooheys and VB). It works a treat, and I believe, proves that well over half of taste (and smell) perception is preconceived. Much of it comes down to labeling and packaging.

At the bottleO, buy four or five bottles of strange import stubbies from the ends of the earth. Your mates who drink VB will never have tasted these brands. 

Insist on being a very polite and gracious host - go to the fridge and get your mates some of the range of interesting beers _your work gave you for xmas or something _- but while in the kitchen out of their view, decant your homebrew into the empty, exotic stubbies.

If your homebrew is decent, I'll bet you not one of your megaswill mates will know they're drinking homebrew. 

Another interesting phenomenon is the fact that you can serve the same homebrew to the same mate in three different stubbies and he'll swear the second one was the best, because, "Bla bla bla". 

Presentation, labeling and preconceptions haunt homebrew more than flavour.


----------



## flattop (31/12/08)

All of my brews have improved with age.
Nothing bottled before late November has got the twang now.
4-5 weeks in the bottle is minimum shelf life for a Coopers kit, 2-3 months is much better.
I think we also look for the taste, i taste every brew thinking "is it there".


----------



## Bribie G (31/12/08)

I find it helps to actually go out and drink the occasional XXXX and get the odd bottle of Melbourne Bitter to recalibrate the taste buds. The Mrs likes the pokies, doesn't drink, so I accompany her to the pub or club and have a few chilled ones. I have noticed that XXXX in particular has a twang that is similar to mouse cage aroma (if you have ever kept mice or know someone who has, the smell is unforgettable). Now and again VB has a real sulphur nose, despite what they claim I don't believe that they invariably produce an identical brew even in a hi tech factory like Yatala. Getting home to a nice HB is a revelation.


----------



## flattop (31/12/08)

never could stomach XXXX.... VB was mothers milk when i was younger but Carlton on tap was the go.
I believe you are right, re-calibration is a good idea.


----------



## watchUburn (2/1/09)

I used to like XXXX. Tried one the other day and couldn't finish it.
I think my taste-buds have a one-way recalibration setting.


----------

