# Charred Element, Burnt Taste, Sad Face



## iralosavic (19/5/12)

I did a 5 step BIAB mash and a 120 minute boil (due to going over volume with step water) and burnt the crap out my German Lager in the process.

I now have 2 questions:

1.Would a .5 absolute micron filter remove the taste or is it simply doomed?

2. I am planning on reusing the yeast. Ordinarily I would dump a new wort straight ontop of the old yeast cake, but should I pop my yeast rinsing cherry this time (to avoid burnt flavour carrying over)?

Cheers ​


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## scooter_59 (19/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> I did a 5 step BIAB mash and a 120 minute boil (due to going over volume with step water) and burnt the crap out my German Lager in the process.
> 
> I now have 2 questions:
> 
> ...


I had an issue with an immersion heater that burnt the crap out of a rye beer . Two years on it still has that burnt flavour .


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## QldKev (19/5/12)

1. I think it is doomed


2. Yes, wash those yeasties after this one.​
Out of interest, what type of element did you burn


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## manticle (19/5/12)

What do people do to burn their mashes?

I've used 2 different grimwoods and while I've had the occasional bit of burnt grain stuck to the element, I have never had a burnt flavour come through to the wort or beer.

Iralosavic - I would say if it tastes burnt, then it's there forever.


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## Logman (19/5/12)

I did a Porter a while back - cold steeped the dark malts overnight planning to add to the mash. Before doing that I figured I'd heat it up with the burner as it was in a pot. Did that and stopped stirring for a sec to do something and the malt stuck to the bottom and burnt without me knowing until I poured it in. I didn't want to toss it as it was a reasonably expensive brew. At first it had a burnt flavor, after a month settled a little, after two months it was drinkable. These days rather than keg it I'd probably bottle it and leave for 6 months.


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## seamad (19/5/12)

Had problems with a roggen and a dunkelweizen burning onto my crown concealed element. With the dunkel had modded thebypass and burnt out the element, tipped that one as it tasted burnt. Both of those were biab.

Since converting the urn into a braumaster type have never had the elent burn, i think because no crud in the wort.

Strangely the last brew which was 20% rye the element kept cutting out as the safety kicked in. Still met eob targets though and the element was clean at the end, so no idea why it occured.
Cheers
Sean


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## iralosavic (19/5/12)

Thanks all for your replies.

Kev: It's a Keg King element. I consulted kee about the situation and he couldn't help offer a view on how/why it happened, but he recommended cleaning it with a wire brush or rust removing drill bit, which I did and it worked a treat. I had formerly tried soaking in warm PBW solution, but that did absolutely nothing.

Manticle: I didn't burn the mash as such. I BIAB, so the water to grain ratio was something like 5:1 at the lowest point, although I suspect the burning occurred at more like 7:1 during the boil, as I have a habbit of tasting the mash at various stages towards the end and didn't detect any burning taste (nor smell). There was a lot of hop crud and hot break material in the boil - The last 5 litres was so thick you could choke a cow on it. So I'm guessing, free particles stick to the element during the boil and caramelise; then the caramelisation of the element attracts further solids and then proceeds to burn the crap out of it all.

I will be using my hop spider to see how that helps reduce charring next time.

This is the only mash I have performed that resulted in burning, it's also the first BIAB mash I've done involving a protein rest. I did use a stovetop pot to jump from 55c to 63c though, as I had heard that directly heating a mash immediately after a protein rest could increase the likelihood of charring on the element. I guess this is a topic in itself.


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## Nick JD (19/5/12)

Rename the recipe Rauch Lager. :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (19/5/12)

You said five step mash. What were the temperature rests? I think I may know what happened.


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## iralosavic (19/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> You said five step mash. What were the temperature rests? I think I may know what happened.



In @ 55c, 10 mins
Infusion to 63c - 10 mins
Ramp to 68c - 50 mins
Ramp to 72c - 10 mins
Ramp to out @ 76c

And as I mentioned, the boil was prolonged to nearly 2 hours due to stuffing up and having too much water.


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## QldKev (19/5/12)

It's a medium-high density element, so my guess would be the protein rest. 

On my system I now run a HERMS and a RIMS, I will not fire up the RIMS until the wort has clarified as at prot rests temps I get the same issues. 


QldKev


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## troopa (19/5/12)

Sigh at my Docs GA sitting in my fridge atm that tastes like burnt fart. Im just struggling with the idea of pouring it out 

Almost the same scheduled
55-65-78
And the KK element
Bag in liquor while ramping

I would love to blame anything else but i still think its the protein rest with wheat in it as nothing else has had the issue


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## Bribie G (19/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> In @ 55c, 10 mins
> Infusion to 63c - 10 mins
> Ramp to 68c - 50 mins
> Ramp to 72c - 10 mins
> ...



Right here's what happened. 

Protein rest, ends up looking like cereal floating in milk. There has been no starch conversion yet as you are not into the sacch range. So you turn on the element to ramp up to sacch rest and all that cloudy starch burns onto the element and turns into char. You get to 63 if the element hasn't cut out by then (my Crown had shit itself around 60 degrees so I stirred everything up a bit harder and it came on again). Edit - of course I had no way of checking the state of the element apart from draining the whole mash. As if, hey.

You continue on but although the element is working, it's a blackened thing that is just pumping burnt flavours into the wort. 

Now think of this, the multi step mash is a German invention and they always did it by decoction, removing a portion of the grain and boiling that then returning to the main mash to ramp up.
Since they are now mostly doing hochkurz type infusion mashes, they mimic this by adding boiling water between stages to ramp.

They do not ramp by applying direct heat via element to the mash itself. 

The latter works great once you have reached sacch temp but if doing a protein rest I'd start with a thicker mash and then use boiling water to ramp to the 63 degrees, Deustch style. 

I'm still cleaning char off my element <_< - and yes the wort got chucked.

Edit: I'd bet London to a Brick your problem was set in stone in the first ramp, nothing to do with a long boil - which I do regularly.


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## manticle (19/5/12)

Makes sense. My immersion element gets chucked back into the HLT between each rest (schedule above is my regular schedule) and on the rare occasion I get burnt bits on my element, I clean them off before the next step.

If your element is fitted and not protected, I can see how this might happen.


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## troopa (19/5/12)

So this would happen with any grain bill and not just a wheat blend then?


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## NickB (19/5/12)

Yep. If you have a milky-white liquid in the mash tun (which you would under sacc. temps) then the proteins would be more likely to burn. Think about chucking butter into cold pan, and heating it. It will eventually separate into the clear 'liquid' and the burnt protein bits. As an aside, that's why I use Ghee for cooking these days. Doesn't tend to burn...


Cheers!!


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## razz (19/5/12)

I concur with Qldkev, same thing happens with my RIMS. Recirc takes care of the milky liquor, same thing that happens in the BM.


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## seamad (19/5/12)

I think it is biab problem, avoided by omitting the protein rest. When i biabed nearly always had tosoak the element overnight. With the conversion it just takes a wipe and its clean,no matter what mash schedule.


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## iralosavic (19/5/12)

Thanks all. I did use an infusion step from the protein rest to attempt to avoid the burning, but it seems that the burning eventually happens regardless. Pity I had to learn the hard way, but at least this thread may help spread the news to other BIABers - don't do a protein rest if you have a fitted and exposed element!

Being a miser (and not a rich one either), I'm of two minds regarding keeping or discarding the beer. I have only tasted a green and uncarbonated sample. It may be "tolerable" once it is mature, despite having an underlying burnt taste. Anyone else tried drinking a burnt lager before?

Seamad: bull terriers are great dogs, but what do you mean to confer with your statement "with the conversion"? The conversion of what?


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## seamad (19/5/12)

Sadly dogless at present,,have had bullies all my life, great people dogs.

By conversion i mean to a braumaster style unit got some piccies of it in the blackdog brewmaster thread. No problems with step mashes. Last brew mashed in after breakfast, took the kids to school,came home and kegged two brews then pulled the mash pot, all unsupervised,makes brewday easy.
cheers
Sean


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## Phoney (27/8/12)

*bump*




seamad said:


> Had problems with a roggen and a dunkelweizen burning onto my crown concealed element. With the dunkel had modded thebypass and burnt out the element, tipped that one as it tasted burnt. Both of those were biab.
> 
> Since converting the urn into a braumaster type have never had the elent burn, i think because no crud in the wort.
> 
> ...



Same thing happened to me.

20% rye in the grain bill, hit 1.075 OG as expected after a 2 hour boil... but the element kept cutting in and out during the last hour of the boil. After some heavy duty cleaning of the element afterwards there was about a 2 - 3mm shell of burnt black crud stuck to the element.

I now have a 7.5% Rye IPA with a burnt taste.  But I must say it's still drinkable. It's just going on hold for a month or three 


ps: How did you convert your urn into a braumaster type?


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## chrisso81 (27/8/12)

Phoney, check this out http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=60805 :beer:


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## Phoney (27/8/12)

Thanks Chrisso. 

Sounds like scrubbing the element pre-boil with a long handled brush has stopped his burnt wort problems rather than his fancy urn build.

Cheers.


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## lespaul (20/10/12)

The last couple of brews ive done have come out with a burnt element. The last time was horrible, took me about an hour with a stainless steel scrubby to get it off. I read this thread and got rid of the protein rest.
This is a very inconsistent problem, although I realised most of the time i was doing a protein rest, so i though that would have fixed the problem. 
This time I didnt do the protein rest but there is still burning. The burning isnt as bad but its still there. 
Are there any other causes of a burnt element?

Im doing an english ale tomorrow so I will see if it does the same thing.


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## QldKev (20/10/12)

lespaul said:


> The last couple of brews ive done have come out with a burnt element. The last time was horrible, took me about an hour with a stainless steel scrubby to get it off. I read this thread and got rid of the protein rest.
> This is a very inconsistent problem, although I realised most of the time i was doing a protein rest, so i though that would have fixed the problem.
> This time I didnt do the protein rest but there is still burning. The burning isnt as bad but its still there.
> Are there any other causes of a burnt element?
> ...




Are you recirculating until you clarify the wort before enabling the element?

QldKev


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## lespaul (20/10/12)

maybe im just turning the element on too early when im mashing in... maybe leave it for 10 minutes before ramping the temp up again?
I dont have any pump or anything.


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## QldKev (20/10/12)

lespaul said:


> maybe im just turning the element on too early when im mashing in... maybe leave it for 10 minutes before ramping the temp up again?
> I dont have any pump or anything.




Have you got a heating element in the middle of a static grain bed?

Maybe if could detail your system it could help.

QldKev


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## iralosavic (20/10/12)

Clarification of the wort isn't really an option fir a BIABer... If you have the setup to recirculate, in what cicumstances would actually NOT do so before running to the boil kettle? Anyway, my update: I bit the bullet and bought an Italian spiral burner. Now I use the original electric kettle as the HLT and I've wasted nothing (except extra money lol), but it's always been my plan to progressively upgrade until I get to 3V + HERMS HX.

If you want to run an element in a boil kettle, get a thin/low heat density one like you see in a kettle. Much less likely to char (shit advice for someone who already owns a KK element, but it is what it is.


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## Topher (6/6/14)

Sorry for digging up an old nugget, but this thread pretty much describes my last brew and has been very informative. No more direct heat application for me in the urn. 

So before my next brew I want to clean the black crud off the element...so I don't get a repeat of the undrinkable sooty mess that is in my fermenter.

I've tried boiling some vinegar in the urn, and that didn't make it any easier to remove. I don't think I can get the element out, and I can't really get underneath it to scrub it all off. 
Is it fubar? Or is there something else I can soak or boil in it to get the black coating of doom off?


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## Bribie G (6/6/14)

Stainless steel kitchen scrubber.





And a lot of elbow grease. It took a few months to get my element back to pristine, and it's now copper coloured as I rubbed the nickel coating off it, but still works perfectly.


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## Dunkelbrau (6/6/14)

Hot caustic will remove organic material.


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## Black Devil Dog (6/6/14)




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## spog (6/6/14)

Add enough water to cover the element by 2-3 inches or 50 -75 mm, heat then add a teaspoon full of citric acid ( found in the supermarket) ,let cool over night.
This will loosen the built up/burnt on crud, then use a stiff bristled toothbrush to clean in,around and under the element.
Drain and if required give it another go.
By heating the element it expands the crud,crap,shit ,and lets the citric acid get in and do its job,stir the mixture in when added.
Rinse thoroughly then dry to prevent any residual left overs.
I use 2 Kmart kettle elements in my rig and this works for me.
Cheers....spog...


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## Hippy (6/6/14)

Bribie G said:


> Stainless steel kitchen scrubber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Birko element is now also copper coloured but I sped the process up by using a wire brush fitting on my angle grinder.
Ended up with a piece of wire sticking out of the cartlidge in the top of my ear, so bought a wire brush bit for the cordless drill and that was a lot easier. 
Next time I'll go with ear muffs instead of plugs and maybe a face shield as well.


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## spog (6/6/14)

Hippy said:


> My Birko element is now also copper coloured but I sped the process up by using a wire brush fitting on my angle grinder.
> Ended up with a piece of wire sticking out of the cartlidge in the top of my ear, so bought a wire brush bit for the cordless drill and that was a lot easier.
> Next time I'll go with ear muffs instead of plugs and maybe a face shield as well.


Umm doing what you have I would say that you have stripped the coating and damaged the element,it will now show you who is boss and shit itself, possibly half way through a brewing session .


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## Topher (6/6/14)

Great, thanks guys. I've been scrubbing like crazy with a green scourer with not much luck. 

I'll try the citric tomorrow, then the caustic if that doesn't work....I'm not sure I'll actually try the angle grinder wire brush flinging ear trauma method above. But I might give it a touch with the dremel if nothing budges.


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## Hippy (6/6/14)

spog said:


> Umm doing what you have I would say that you have stripped the coating and damaged the element,it will now show you who is boss and shit itself, possibly half way through a brewing session .


Yeh probably, but it's done a couple of brews since .
When it happens I'll let you know,.


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## Hippy (6/6/14)

Topher said:


> Great, thanks guys. I've been scrubbing like crazy with a green scourer with not much luck.
> 
> I'll try the citric tomorrow, then the caustic if that doesn't work....I'm not sure I'll actually try the angle grinder wire brush flinging ear trauma method above. But I might give it a touch with the dremel if nothing budges.


The angle grinder component lasted as long as copping a piece of wire in the ear and going to plan B. The cordless drill on a low speed actually works pretty well, but if I had of known about the citric and caustic I'd of probably tried that first


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## Topher (10/6/14)

Ended up resorting to the dremel with the wire brush, then elbow grease with the scourer. 

Brewing tomorrow, will see how it goes.


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## Kak (10/6/14)

My 2400w element burnt. Spoke to the supplier and he recommended lightly sand blasting it. It Just so happens that I have a small hand held sand blasting gun. Gave it a wiz, and that was twenty five brews ago. I think the golden rule is not to boil more than 60 mins. My burnt due to the fact that I was shit faced whilst doing a brew and wasn't payng attention and boiled for bout two hours.

I have had this beer in fermentor for about 6 months. I check it regularly to see if it changes. The taste and smell have subdued a little bit but not enough for me.


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## brando (10/6/14)

All this thread has done is confused me.

I'm about to start step mashes using BIAB with my 40L Birko exposed element urn.

I'm planning to do an infusion protein rest @ 52 for 10mins, infusion sacc rest @ 63 for 40 mins, then use the element to heat up to 71 for 30 mins, and again for mashout at 78 for 10 mins.

Am I likely to get a burnt element or not??


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## pk.sax (10/6/14)

Apparently not. Apparently doing the step up from protein rest is the culprit.

Apparently Bribie is the urn king and you should apparently listen to him.

Apparently.

I don't urn brew - known.


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## brando (10/6/14)

Calling Bribie. Your thoughts on my post?


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## brando (12/6/14)

Bump


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