# Adelaide West End Brewery Water Fountain



## joellauner

Hi All,

I am chasing some RO water so i can make up my water profiles from scratch.

Does anyone have the water profile details for the water provided at the West End Brewery in Adelaide.

Is this water acceptable to use a zero starting point.

Or is there another cheapish source for RO or Distilled water in Radelaide?

Cheers


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## Bridges

I tasted the water from that fountain once years ago and was sickened, explained a lot to me about why I didn't enjoy west end. I wouldn't use it as a start point. I'm not sure where to source water in Adelaide but in Vic our supply authorities will give you a report on the profile of the tap water when requested, that may be a better place for you to start from.


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## joellauner

Yeah i got a report from SA water for our tap water in Plympton.

Tap Water:
Alkalinity as Calcium Carbonate mg/L (ppm) 57 
Bicarbonate mg/L (ppm) 70 
Calcium mg/L (ppm) 23.8 
Chloride mg/L (ppm) 96
Magnesium mg/L (ppm) 12.5
pH pH units 7.3 
Sodium mg/L (ppm) 55.3 
Sulphate mg/L (ppm) 41.9

I mainly brew AG Pale Ales & IPA's and i've got a slight astringent bitterness coming through, plus my hoppy aroma/flavour is not quite as big as i'd like, regardless of the amount of hops used. I'm only just now looking into water to see if this makes a difference.

The high Chloride level of my tap water prevents me from matching any Pale Ale water profiles on Bru N Water etc, hence why i am looking at using RO/Distilled water.


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## Nizmoose

joellauner said:


> Yeah i got a report from SA water for our tap water in Plympton.
> 
> Tap Water:
> Alkalinity as Calcium Carbonate mg/L (ppm) 57
> Bicarbonate mg/L (ppm) 70
> Calcium mg/L (ppm) 23.8
> Chloride mg/L (ppm) 96
> Magnesium mg/L (ppm) 12.5
> pH pH units 7.3
> Sodium mg/L (ppm) 55.3
> Sulphate mg/L (ppm) 41.9
> 
> I mainly brew AG Pale Ales & IPA's and i've got a slight astringent bitterness coming through, plus my hoppy aroma/flavour is not quite as big as i'd like, regardless of the amount of hops used. I'm only just now looking into water to see if this makes a difference.
> 
> The high Chloride level of my tap water prevents me from matching any Pale Ale water profiles on Bru N Water etc, hence why i am looking at using RO/Distilled water.


Hey mate I'm in Marleston not far from you and have always wondered how to get a water report! They've always seemed reasonably useless on the SA water Site. Where did you get the info?


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## joellauner

Nizmoose said:


> Hey mate I'm in Marleston not far from you and have always wondered how to get a water report! They've always seemed reasonably useless on the SA water Site. Where did you get the info?


I sent SA water an enquiry via email and asked for specific properties and they responded the following day. I was impressed!

The water source is for the Central Metro System, Sturt EL 51 Tank Zone, during the period of 04/08/2014 to 04/08/2015.


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## dicko

You can climb up on a toadstool and listen to "Fairy Stories" re your water report or just get something similar to one of these 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PRO-3-50GPD-Drinking-Aquarium-Reverse-Osmosis-Water-Filters-RO-Filter-GARDEN-/111359575481?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19ed8c45b9

and add your own salt additions to suit your brewing.


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## Brew Forky

The water at West End comes from the Willunga Aquifer, which meanders through adelaide and is natural RO water which is then filtered. Private homes that tap into it drink it as is. Can't give you a water report though.


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## Nizmoose

Ahh actually this reminds me I have a cartridge filter which makes reports fairly useless now that I think about it. Problem number 2,the water coming out sure as hell isn't ro so how do you know what you have?


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## spog

joellauner said:


> I sent SA water an enquiry via email and asked for specific properties and they responded the following day. I was impressed!
> 
> The water source is for the Central Metro System, Sturt EL 51 Tank Zone, during the period of 04/08/2014 to 04/08/2015. [/size]


Bugga me ! Quite a few years ago I asked SA water here in Port Lincoln for a water analysis report ,I'm not joking I was given the third degree ! When I replied I was interested in a home brewing manner I was treated as if I had the pox ,the report was pushed at me across the counter and I was immediately ignored.
Mind you I did discover some time later that the bloke who "served" me is married to an ex girlfriend of mine....ah well there ya go.


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## dicko

RO is reverse osmosis water which means it arguably is basically free of all minerals.
If minerals remain after an RO treatment then the quantity would not affect the brewing process as the amount should be miniscule.

The water from the fountain is probably filtered water with possibly an accurate analysis for use in brewing by the brewery but it may not be suitable for YOUR required control of mash PH and desired or optimum outcome for your brew.

There is some breweries that actually buy water from people like Piccadilly as the supplier will provide accurate analysis of the water.
Unfortunately SA water really only tell you what they think is good for you to hear.

Spog, if you really require the Port Lincoln water to be analysed correctly there is a mob in Cummins that will give you an accurate report.
Unfortunately the report you get will only apply to the sample that you provide and these samples can vary depending on when and where they were taken.
Another problem is to get an accurate report it costs almost as much as buying an RO unit similar to the link in my post above.

No brainer really.... The RO unit is the way to get RO water...or the OP could collect clean rainwater and for the sake of the excercise treat it as RO.


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## TOF

During the 1970's I spent a lot of time installing packaging equipment in beverage facilities and Southwark brewery spent more money treating
water to use in the boiler house that for the water they brewed with, we contractors used to empty the chief engineers office fridge each night
and only drink the un pasteurised beer. Haven't tasted any Adelaide water since, Cheers, Ken.


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## Rocker1986

dicko said:


> You can climb up on a toadstool and listen to "Fairy Stories" re your water report or just get something similar to one of these
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PRO-3-50GPD-Drinking-Aquarium-Reverse-Osmosis-Water-Filters-RO-Filter-GARDEN-/111359575481?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19ed8c45b9
> 
> and add your own salt additions to suit your brewing.


I've done something similar actually, I got myself a small still and make enough distilled water for a batch, then create water profiles by adding salts back into it on brew day. I've only done it with pilsners so far as I'm happy with the tap water for all other styles, but may do some experimenting with them as well.


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## Mikeyr

Actually worked at West End for some years, water does indeed come from a bore. A damn deep one. 

Adelaide tap water was so bad that whenever the "Disney on Ice" kind of event came to town they used to tanker our water up Port Road to the Ent Cent. Tap water used to freeze brown and ours was crystal clear!

Brewers reckoned it was "spot on minerally" but we had to reverse osmosis it for "safety" and then add minerals back. Bloody nearly the same amounts.


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## Brew Forky

Mikeyr said:


> Adelaide tap water was so bad that whenever the "Disney on Ice" kind of event came to town they used to tanker our water up Port Road to the Ent Cent. Tap water used to freeze brown and ours was crystal clear!



I remember when I was a kid, the water used to come out brown from the tap and we had to wait until it cleared up. And I'm not that old. When I moved interstate, I didn't like the water because it had no body or taste.

A bit of trivia, Lion tried making WE Draught in Sydney in case something happened in Adelaide to halt production, but they couldn't emulate it as the water is the key, so they scrapped the project.


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## drsmurto

Brew Forky said:


> The water at West End comes from the Willunga Aquifer, which meanders through adelaide and is natural RO water which is then filtered. Private homes that tap into it drink it as is. Can't give you a water report though.


No it is not 'naturally RO water'. Such a thing doesn't exist. If it comes from a bore/acquifer then it will have a significant mineral content.

I wouldn't use the water from that fountain unless you can access a report for it. At least SA Water give you a report albeit with a massive difference between maximum and minimum and no standard deviation (public service is where science goes to die). Which makes it a guess but a slightly educated one.

The cheapestt source of 'RO water' is rainwater. Put that through a carbon filter and you should have a blank canvas. That said, I'd still recommend you get it tested. I test my rainwater regularly using an ICP-MS. I use my rainwater for brewing and have done for several years. Also great for coffee machines. Good rebates available to install tanks and plumb them to your house.

For the record, Adelaide tap water is very good for brewing. A little low in calcium and you should really knock out the chlorine/chloramine using a carbon filter but it is still a very good brewing water source. Lots of brewing use it successfully, many vastly more experienced than I.


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## Yob

Do you guys get a significant amount of chloramine DrS?


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## drsmurto

Yob said:


> Do you guys get a significant amount of chloramine DrS?


SA Water use chloramine instead of chlorine. Presumably it is why Adelaide has a reputation as having bad water. It is easily removed by a standard under bench filtration system. Once you remove the chloramine the water is fine to brew with. It's not classified as hard water but it does contain more calcium and magnesium than Melbourne water.

Edit - not sure of the levels of chloramine but the water has a strong smell and taste of 'chlorine'.


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## antiphile

Hi Jolly Joel

If it's just the chlorine/chloramine level that's the drawback, on the day before brewing, fill your HLT with water and drop in a Camden tablet to remove them. Then add mineral additions to suit the desired profile.


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## Brew Forky

DrSmurto said:


> No it is not 'naturally RO water'. Such a thing doesn't exist. If it comes from a bore/acquifer then it will have a significant mineral content.


Sorry Dr, I'll put a comma in. The water at West End comes from the Willunga Aquifer, which meanders through Adelaide and is natural, RO water which is then filtered. I'll double check next week if it goes through a Reverse Osmosis process before the public fountain, or straight from spring to filter.

Whilst we are on the subject, I am subjectively believing my beers have been better since collecting water straight from the garden tap, rather than using the Puratap in the house. With some unwanted phenolic reactions though in my lastest Brown Porter, I believe it could be due to an increase in the chloramine in our supply over winter rains. As antiphile stated, I am seriously/ definitely considering using Camden tablets to counteract it next brew.

Your scientific input would be appreciated.


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## dicko

If you havent taken a sample of the water (from the fountain) or any other water for that matter and had it analysed for brewing then what you are doing is "guessing"

Two options....

1. Have your water analysed accurately and regularly and adjust from there

2. Use a "blank canvas" with a proven water profile by having it tested and add salts as deemed necessary.


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## Vini2ton

What the ****? Public fountain? West End? Southwark? Is this some kind of a weird dream where I wake up with Dr Cooper handing me a sparkling ale and saying " You're OK son, they found you in Hindley St." Public fountain?


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## drsmurto

Brew Forky said:


> Sorry Dr, I'll put a comma in. The water at West End comes from the Willunga Aquifer, which meanders through Adelaide and is natural, RO water which is then filtered. I'll double check next week if it goes through a Reverse Osmosis process before the public fountain, or straight from spring to filter.
> 
> Whilst we are on the subject, I am subjectively believing my beers have been better since collecting water straight from the garden tap, rather than using the Puratap in the house. With some unwanted phenolic reactions though in my lastest Brown Porter, I believe it could be due to an increase in the chloramine in our supply over winter rains. As antiphile stated, I am seriously/ definitely considering using Camden tablets to counteract it next brew.
> 
> Your scientific input would be appreciated.


If you've got a puratap and the filters are changed regularly then you have a simple way of removing the chloramine. Why add a chemical to react with another chemical? Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The water West End uses in the brewery is undoubtedly RO. The water that comes from the acquifer and is then treated through their RO system is not. Groundwater is not RO. Rainwater is not RO. One passes through the ground picking up minerals and organic compounds, bacteria etc. The other passes through the air picking up impurities before coming into contact with a roof and collecting all manner of quite literally shit before ending up in a tank.

As stated in both my previous posts, Adelaide tap water is great for brewing once you remove the chloramine. I've given a presentation on brewing water chemistry to the local club - South Australian Brewing Club. I will likely give another later in the year. If you are local we'd love to see you at the monthly meeting at the Wheatsheaf Hotel. Next meeting is this coming Wednesday where we'll be judging an internal comp but plenty of opportunity as always to talk brewing.


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## Brew Forky

DrSmurto said:


> If you've got a puratap and the filters are changed regularly then you have a simple way of removing the chloramine. Why add a chemical to react with another chemical? Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
> 
> The water West End uses in the brewery is undoubtedly RO. The water that comes from the acquifer and is then treated through their RO system is not. Groundwater is not RO. Rainwater is not RO. One passes through the ground picking up minerals and organic compounds, bacteria etc. The other passes through the air picking up impurities before coming into contact with a roof and collecting all manner of quite literally shit before ending up in a tank.
> 
> As stated in both my previous posts, Adelaide tap water is great for brewing once you remove the chloramine. I've given a presentation on brewing water chemistry to the local club - South Australian Brewing Club. I will likely give another later in the year. If you are local we'd love to see you at the monthly meeting at the Wheatsheaf Hotel. Next meeting is this coming Wednesday where we'll be judging an internal comp but plenty of opportunity as always to talk brewing.



Thanks for the response. The reason i went off using the Puratap was because I believed the tap water was improving the taste of my ales. I'll brew the same beer that is cold crashing at the moment next weekend, but use the Puratap so I can make a proper comparison.

I would like to attend the club meetings, but normally don't finish work until 9pm or later. As it gets way at 7pm, I would have missed most of the proceedings.


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## Brew Forky

So I asked a bloke who had worked at West end for 27 years, and he said the water is drawn up from the aquifier, filtered (RO), piped to the brewhouse and that the fountain out the front runs off the same pipe. He asked me whether I was going to get some to brew with and I told him "No, I think I'm just going to go back to using the Puratap"


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