# Why Not Biab



## drtomc (12/10/10)

Hi All,

I've been happily BIABing for a while now, and rather than drag one of the other threads off topic, here's a new one.

Why would I switch to something else? I know this could be troll bait, but I'm not out for that kind of sport.

What are the advantages of (e.g.) traditional 3v brewing? In practice!

T.


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## zebba (12/10/10)

More gadgets/shiny things. That's certainly what appeals to me.

(true story)


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## Acasta (12/10/10)

BIAB involves a bit of messing around with sparging and lifting ect, 3v doesn't require as much of these. +1 to above mentioned.
Also, 3V is more traditional.


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## felten (12/10/10)

Just 3v, or are you comparing to herms/rims as well?

If I wasn't such a poor bastard I would probably look into a herms system, so I can push a button and have the system do the whole mash schedule itself instead of stirring the mash while my crappy 3 ring burner gets up to temp; and pumps instead of siphons (I hate siphoning with a passion, need a tap on my kettle)... but that's just me.




> BIAB involves a bit of messing around with sparging and lifting ect, 3v doesn't require as much of these



Sparging is actually more relevant to 3v than it is to BIAB... you better watch out or TB will come in here and chew you out. (I'm a non sparger myself)

You still have to lift the spent grain out of an esky the same as BIAB.


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## mxd (12/10/10)

for me, purely the batch size, I want to be able to pull out, up to 50 ltrs into cubes, I could have gone 2 BIAB's but went 3V.


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## drtomc (12/10/10)

Right, so there are 3 reasons so far:

1. Shininess
2. Convenience
3. Tradition

All these are fine reasons. None of them relate to the beer.


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## unrealeous (12/10/10)

Brewing with a BIAB system is like riding a moped, it will get you where you want to go, but you won't want your friends to see you doing it.


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## Fents (12/10/10)

drtomc said:


> Why would I switch to something else?



ask yourself this....why wouldnt you?

the whole BIAB stigma has long gone the only people that ever bagged it on here were Darren and someone else i think. (Read any UK / US forum and yea they seem a bit against it but its just because they have not been properly exposed to it on the scale we have)

BIAB is great, one pot, less mess, still makes beer.

3 Vessel is also great, 3 pots (or vessels), more cleaning, more time taken to make beer but also MORE flexibilty to make the beer you like. still makes beer to.

Anyone can make a shit beer on any system so just remember its not how much you spend or dont spend on your system its what you can do with it.


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## Phoney (12/10/10)

Acasta said:


> BIAB involves a bit of messing around with sparging and lifting ect, 3v doesn't require as much of these. +1 to above mentioned.
> Also, 3V is more traditional.



I never sparge for grain bills <6KG, and there's a chap on here who rigged up a garage door controller to lift the bag at the touch of a button for him. :lol:


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## razz (12/10/10)

drtomc said:


> Right, so there are 3 reasons so far:
> 
> 1. Shininess
> 2. Convenience
> ...


4. Step mashing


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## Acasta (12/10/10)

Those are just some reasons people use. Never said i agreed with them.


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## drtomc (12/10/10)

I step mash with BIAB. I grant you that my rise times are slow, but it steps. Or should that be "it slippery slopes"?

Explain the more flexibility thing for me? What beers will work better on a trad rig? Are we talking high gravity - that I could believe. Have people tried and failed, or is it still in hypothetical land?

(no, I'm still not trolling, just trying to understand more)

T.


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## razz (12/10/10)

How do you do your step mashes T?


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## drtomc (12/10/10)

Apply heat, and as they say, stir like buggery.

T.


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## felten (12/10/10)

Ditto, I do step mashes with BIAB as well, apply heat at full power and keep stirring until you hit temps. It takes a while but that is all to do with burner size, I'm using a 3 ring and low pressure reg which isn't ideal but it gets the job done.


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## brett mccluskey (12/10/10)

felten said:


> Ditto, I do step mashes with BIAB as well, apply heat at full power and keep stirring until you hit temps. It takes a while but that is all to do with burner size, I'm using a 3 ring and low pressure reg which isn't ideal but it gets the job done.


I've got a 3v system and also BAIB Until i read about, and tried baib, i would have had my doubts,Not any more.It makes a bloody good beer ,although i find i don't get the same depth of malt character in my Alt as a sparged version Horses for courses i reckon.99% of beers i'd happily make baib My time is important to me ,and if i can shave 3 hours off my brew day ,i'm wrapt(and not compromise on quality,of course)Baib is in no way an inferior method,it works,from my experience anyway :beer


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## O'Henry (12/10/10)

Batch size can be a thing for some people. 15kg of grain for a 24l barelywine probably won't do well in a regular BIAB system.


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## mje1980 (12/10/10)

drtomc said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been happily BIABing for a while now, and rather than drag one of the other threads off topic, here's a new one.
> 
> ...




Well, the only reason i see to switch is if you're unhappy with your beers? or just want to go through a whole lot of stuffing around for nothing?. Possibly double batches as well, but if you had a big enough kettle and bag, you could do doubles. 

They are all just different roads to the same place IMHO. I've tasted some very bloody nice BIAB beers, and some very bloody nice 3v beers. Really, even amongst people who brew with the "same" method, everyones setup is slightly different, and once you know your system, whatever process you use, you'll make great beers.



Cheers


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## QldKev (12/10/10)

I'm a BIAB brewer and am moving to a 3V HERMS. To me without the HERMS I would not move to 3V. 

With BIAB 
I can push out a double and a single at the same time on my dual BIAB rig. 
I make fairly consistent beers on BIAB.

From HERMS, 
I look at ease of stepped mashes.
100% consistent temps during the mash. 
Ability to recirculate wort to clarify it, which I believe is better for lagers etc.
More BLING!

QldKev


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## RdeVjun (12/10/10)

mje1980 said:


> Well, the only reason i see to switch is if you're unhappy with your beers?


Bingo! That's the only reason I'd change. And no I'm not, no way, not unhappy in the slightest. I've had some pretty decent 3V beers, that I grant you, but nothing that makes me want to change religions.

BTW, step mashing isn't any different for BIAB compared to other methods, you can infuse it, decoct it or direct heat, which BTW is something you can't do with an esky!


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## np1962 (12/10/10)

toper1 said:


> I've got a 3v system and also BAIB Until i read about, and tried baib, i would have had my doubts,Not any more.It makes a bloody good beer ,although i find i don't get the same depth of malt character in my Alt as a sparged version Horses for courses i reckon.99% of beers i'd happily make baib My time is important to me ,and if i can shave 3 hours off my brew day ,i'm wrapt(and not compromise on quality,of course)Baib is in no way an inferior method,it works,from my experience anyway :beer


How is BIAB 3 hours faster than 3v brewing?
You mash for the same time, boil for the same time etc etc... 
OK I see some saving from lifting a bag as compared to sparging but 3 hours?


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## Thunus (12/10/10)

RdeVjun said:


> Bingo! That's the only reason I'd change. And no I'm not, no way, not unhappy in the slightest. I've had some pretty decent 3V beers, that I grant you, but nothing that makes me want to change religions.
> 
> BTW, step mashing isn't any different for BIAB compared to other methods, you can infuse it, decoct it or direct heat, which BTW is something you can't do with an esky!



I am a BIAB'er and quite happy with my beer but recipees that require step mashing are MUCH easier on a mates HERMS system, no heating etc just program the herms and sit and watch.


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## Cocko (12/10/10)

I used to BIAB and now 3v.

*Only* reason for the change was the same as MXD, Batch size.... if you are looking for an answer why 3v makes better beer you probably will be stretched to find it.

Along the road to 3V I really enjoyed the making of equipment side of things too, making a copper manifold, tapping my kettle, temp gauge in HLT etc.. really gives you some pride when it works. I spose you would get the same enjoyment from making anything... but it is good fun to build a 'brewery'... sewing is not my strong suit!   

But one thing I have found is efficiency is up big time. with BIAB I would float around 70%, now with 3V I hover in the high 80's.... which makes sense I guess when doing proper sparging and rinsing the arse out that malt...

Simple answer: If you are happy with your beers, no reason to change. If you wanna brew more than a bag than handle, you need to change... Or of course for the thrill of the chase!

It takes me the same time to do a 100L batch 3V as it did to do a 25L batch of BIAB so I don't get the time argument. 

2c.


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## haysie (12/10/10)

NigeP62 said:


> How is BIAB 3 hours faster than 3v brewing?
> You mash for the same time, boil for the same time etc etc...
> OK I see some saving from lifting a bag as compared to sparging but 3 hours?



+ 1 h34r: 

Done both, maybe the cleaning is a little more of a pita with the bag for me, sticky, messy and hot hot, tried it and didnt like lifting and things. I had the room and inclination and moved on to a 3v/no herms. No doubt any all grain beer made with a little thought goes along way. Tasted great baggers and shit RIMS and vice versa. I have all the gear to go full herms but get very good beer out of my current ice cream bucket set up not to bother fix the wheel that aint broken. The Braumeister jiggy is the one for me, all 200 ltrs :wub: . Thats on the horizon for a friends restaurant.
The operator come recipe maker plays THE BIGGEST part in any brewing system IMO. i.e great system but shit yeast control normally find you out every time.


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## black_labb (12/10/10)

with 3 vessels you can make triple biab batches of different beers!

I'm actually somewhat using a hybrid biab system. my element in my 30L urn burnt out so I made a keggle (legal keg ect) but the top still comes in as i'm considering making it into a "water purification system" as well as a keggle. so i'm essentially doing the biab in the urn, then draining into the keggle to boil and doing a sparge in the urn while the first runnings are heating up. It should get better efficiency than basic 3v as you can squeeze the bag I'm in the mid 70's at the moment as i'm still experiementing (most of the recent beers have been high gravity as i want to make beers to age)


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## Nick JD (12/10/10)

Why not? Because I went out and spent thousands on my RIMS system, that's why. 

The more you spend the better the beer is. That's the rule. 

CUB has very, very expensive gear. Some day I too will be able to make beer of the same quality as VB.


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## Cocko (12/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> Why not? Because I went out and spent thousands on my RIMS system, that's why.
> 
> The more you spend the better the beer is. That's the rule.
> 
> CUB has very, very expensive gear. Some day I too will be able to make beer of the same quality as VB.



If it was a question of how to make good beer cheap than I see your sarcasm but I think the OP is asking a different question...

Unless I am confused.


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## manticle (12/10/10)

mje1980 said:


> Well, the only reason i see to switch is if you're unhappy with your beers? or just want to go through a whole lot of stuffing around for nothing?. Possibly double batches as well, but if you had a big enough kettle and bag, you could do doubles.
> 
> They are all just different roads to the same place IMHO. I've tasted some very bloody nice BIAB beers, and some very bloody nice 3v beers. Really, even amongst people who brew with the "same" method, everyones setup is slightly different, and once you know your system, whatever process you use, you'll make great beers.
> 
> ...




This I would agree with the most. I brew 3 V because that's how I approached getting set up (vessel acquisition here, vessel acquisition there) and I'm a bit traditional about some things (although how olde worlde is an esky really?) If you're making good beer then no need to change: if you're not it's probably not the fault of BIAB. Change because you find a cheap SS pot somewhere that you think would look nice with a tap in it because you like tinkering or because you feel like it but whatever system you use, getting to know it and making it work for you is the best approach.


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## Bribie G (12/10/10)

unrealeous said:


> Brewing with a BIAB system is like riding a moped, it will get you where you want to go, but you won't want your friends to see you doing it.



I regularly have people around to BIAB brew days and they are invariably impressed with the simplicity and lack of messing around. I don't see why anyone has problems with 'messiness'. In fact it's just a case of lowering the bag of spent grain straight into a big black garbage bag with ties, reach in and grab the bottom of the bag and pull it out of the garbage bag, leaving the grain inside and an almost clean BIAB bag that goes into a bucket of Napisan then rinsed and hung on the line. The black bag goes into the bin or round to the mate with the chooks whatever. Now I've seen some plug ugly esky scooping-out sessions :lol: 

Stepped mashes are dead easy, as is a mashout. I can see the attraction of a HERMS, but the fairly typical 3 vessel system balanced on milk crates with the Nasa roaring and the poor sweating bugger busier than a one armed painter with the crabs is a sight to behold. And then oh no the stuck mash


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## haysie (12/10/10)

:lol: 
These days things ARE your cock is smaller than mine. GEEZ, what a bang this place is.


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## matt white (12/10/10)

Why would I switch to something else?


UMMMMM,.....aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.......................mmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Nup, cant think of any reasons at all.

BIAB on brother.

100+ BIABS and I'm still fit, fat and fartin....love it!!!!


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## Bribie G (12/10/10)

I've gone 2 vessel


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## aussiechucka (12/10/10)

gilbrew said:


> Why would I switch to something else?
> 
> 
> UMMMMM,.....aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.......................mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
> ...



+1
Not as many BIABs under my belt but very happy so far with how easy it is to get a very tasty beer for not to much outlay. I tried my borther-in-laws K& K the other day and could taste the difference. All he needs is a bit of guidance on adding some spec grains and extra hops and then I am sure he will be on the way to AG. 
Cheers
Chucka


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## unrealeous (12/10/10)

3 Vessels or 1 BIAB.... What about a 2V system.

My next brewery (pipe dream perhaps) is going to produce 150 litres and initially I was thinking about doing something like the Braumeister, but now I'm think 2 Vessels is the go. I already have 2x180 litre stainless pots...

I've been making 45 litre batches of beer out of the 3V system which I build before knowing anything about BIAB and of course am very happy with it. When I heat up the mash water, I just fill the mash tun directly with cold water and run the HERMS until it hits temp, and only use the HLT to get my sparge water hot. So I've often thought that you could easily get rid of the HLT and have just a mash tun and a kettle. 

And now I've just moved into a house with a 'just in time' hot water system - it heats water as you require it. Now it's set at 55 degree's maximum, but I'm sure you could easily build a unit to crank out 80 degree water with a flow rate fit for sparging. This means you could get rid of the HLT.

As far as I can tell, the main benefit of 3V over BIAB is that you can obtain slightly higher efficiencies which start to matter as your batch size increases, and 2V might be simpler (for a 150 litre batch) as won't require a crane and basket setup.

Has anyone done something like this?


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## Tony (12/10/10)

March Pump

Your not a real brewer until (very old AHB joke)


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## argon (12/10/10)

So i recently gave up BIAB and moved to 3V linky

My main reason was so that i could do bigger beers and maintain efficiency, but I've found other benefits.

not having to bother with lifting/squeezing/draining bag... PITA for me
Double batches, as above, bigger beers maintaining efficiency
I now get better efficiency jumped from 70 to 75+
I now get clearer wort into the kettle... not sure if this equals better beer though

I've also found that the brew day takes just as long as with BIAB... so no diff there. I was surprised cause i thought it'd take longer.... it actually takes less time for me now cause i've automated the HLT... but could have done that with the BIAB anyway, so that doesn't really count.

Somehow i find it less troublesome to do 3V... dunno why but i definitely feel more relaxed during a 3V brew... maybe that's experience though... not sure.

As for quality of beers... no conclusion yet.... i did score well recently in a mini-comp for a BIAB beer... so immediately questioned the move. So if i don't maintain quality i'll be having a quiet word with myself.

One thing for BIAB though...when i do a large proportion wheat beer or rye beer i will probably be doing BIAB... although probably just lining the mash tun with the voile bag in case of a stuck mash... just for insurance.


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## ~MikE (13/10/10)

lets face it, BIAB and 3V without recirculating has its limitations in mashing control compared to RIMS/HERMS, but are not without their own advantages. what threads like this go to prove is that there's too many people too worried about what other people think, like to oversimplify the situation and turn it into a mud slinging contest and there's not enough people that can objectively compare different breweries.


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## Thirsty Boy (13/10/10)

unrealeous said:


> Brewing with a BIAB system is like riding a moped, it will get you where you want to go, but you won't want your friends to see you doing it.



I ride a motor scooter too damn you....

Short of wanting to make unusually large (bigger than double) batches, there are no reasonable beer related reasons to change from BIAB to another style of brewing, neither quality nor flexibility. So you would change if for some reason you are not happy with your current beers and have reason to believe that BIAB is to blame, or you don't like your current process, or if you just want to.


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## Scruffy (13/10/10)

O said:


> Define regular.
> 
> Try not to use words like 'probably' in an argument...


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## dpadden (13/10/10)

unrealeous said:


> ...I already have 2x180 litre stainless pots...


 :icon_offtopic: 

Sorry OP, but Unrealeous where did you get ur 180L pots? I'm currently trying to source some....


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## unrealeous (13/10/10)

Paddo said:


> Sorry OP, but Unrealeous where did you get ur 180L pots? I'm currently trying to source some....


ebay - they came out of a commercial kitchen. Got em for a steal.


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## hazard (13/10/10)

One reason for me why not BIAB - I conduct my boil on the stove, and there is less than 12 inches of clearance between the top of my kettle (44L s-s kettle) and the range hood above the stove. Would make it hard to hoist the bag out!!

So for me, a minimalist system consists of an esky for mashing/lautering and one kettle for hot liquor (19L) and one kettle for the boil. Yes, 3 vessels is more than BIAB but the advantages for me are:
- I don't have a burner and gas bottle
- don't need a bag hoist
- all brewing is done inside in the kitchen (well that's good for me, but my wife does get a pissed if she wants to cook something and I've got 30L of wort boiling away). (And the kids reckon boiling hops make the houise stink).

Horses for courses, if I was going to do something different I would love to gat a Speidel brewmaster as described in another thread, by $$$!!!


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## yardy (13/10/10)

drtomc said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been happily BIABing for a while now, and rather than drag one of the other threads off topic, here's a new one.
> 
> ...





what's biab ?


seriously, i've never seen it done but it sounds like an easy stepping stone for newbs, 3V for me is all about the build.

cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/10/10)

yardy said:


> what's biab ?
> 
> 
> seriously, i've never seen it done but it sounds like an easy stepping stone for newbs, 3V for me is all about the build.
> ...



Is this a serious question? I'm happy to answer if it is, but with your post count, I assumed you'd have read a BIAB forum somewhere.

Peace out.

Goomba


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## Scruffy (13/10/10)

Stands for Boil In The Bag...


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## [email protected] (5/11/10)

Sorry to bring up an old post, but I've just started looking on this forum a bit and BIAB sounds very easy and appealing. I currently use a bucket with a false bottom to mash and sparge. 

However it seems that the BIAB method would let a lot of small grain particles into the beer. This is why people sparge so that the grain bed filters these out. I would think a meshed bag would be horribly inefficient at removing these particles. If I remember correctly the problem with getting small grain particles into the boil is that at above 85C the tannins within the grain are released into the liquid creating a horrible bitter taste. So is this a problem with BIAB or is the difference in taste fairly miniscule?


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## whitegoose (5/11/10)

Paxxy said:


> Sorry to bring up an old post, but I've just started looking on this forum a bit and BIAB sounds very easy and appealing. I currently use a bucket with a false bottom to mash and sparge.
> 
> However it seems that the BIAB method would let a lot of small grain particles into the beer. This is why people sparge so that the grain bed filters these out. I would think a meshed bag would be horribly inefficient at removing these particles. If I remember correctly the problem with getting small grain particles into the boil is that at above 85C the tannins within the grain are released into the liquid creating a horrible bitter taste. So is this a problem with BIAB or is the difference in taste fairly miniscule?



Haha do you think anyone would brew BIAB if it created a "horrible bitter taste"? I think many people on this forum would agree that the taste difference is not only miniscule, it's probably non-existant. Just look at the recent results from the national brewing comp.

Common fabric used for the bag is swiss voile (or some other kind of voile) which is pretty frigging fine mesh - I doubt much in the way of tannin-carrying grain gets through.


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## [email protected] (5/11/10)

whitegoose said:


> Haha do you think anyone would brew BIAB if it created a "horrible bitter taste"? I think many people on this forum would agree that the taste difference is not only miniscule, it's probably non-existant. Just look at the recent results from the national brewing comp.
> 
> Common fabric used for the bag is swiss voile (or some other kind of voile) which is pretty frigging fine mesh - I doubt much in the way of tannin-carrying grain gets through.



Well a lot of people drink VB despite a horrible everything taste about it. 

I guess having just started reading about BIAB this is what would scare me most about not doing a proper sparge. But as you've pointed out everyones doing it and noones complaining. I'd be interested from hearing from someone whos done both about how much extra tannin flavour if any there is in BIAB. A downgrade to BIAB sounds like a much easier way to brew.


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## Bribie G (5/11/10)

With traditional German decoction mashing, a third of the mash is taken out and actually boiled, then returned to the mash tun to raise the temperature of the mash to the next stage. So tannin extraction is not an issue, I believe it's to do with pH of the mash and in the mash tun it's at the right pH for not extrating tannins.

For sure the wort in the kettle is a bit more turbid than most 3V systems but a good boil and use of floccing compound results in crystal clear wort _out of_ the kettle into the chiller or cube. Scuse me while I trot out old piccie:

I just 'clear the throat' of the pour - left hand glass - then continue pour into cube and it runs nice and bright. Nowadays I actually pour off a whole 500ml initially and let that settle overnight in a Schott bottle and use it for the yeast starter.


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## Bizier (5/11/10)

I am switching to HERMS when I can sort it out.

I have done maybe 30-40 BIAB batches of 50L+ volume. While it worked and I made some beers that did well both in my belly and at comp, I have niggles with the whole thing, especially at 50L. ALL of the niggles could probably be solved if I had a permanent place to fine-tune a BIAB rig, but I guess I would rather just build a new shiny toy with more potential to go wrong.

I really want to achieve reliably consistent wort production so I can focus on the finer points of fermentation, especially with higher gravity beers such as barleywine or RIS.

The byproduct of all this will be that I appear more masculine, dynamic and virile in the eyes of those around me, especially my GF.

BIAB is a fantastic technique that got me into AG. Other people are happy to continue with it, and more power to them. I would like to play with new ideas and toys. There is a good chance I will go back to BIAB temporarily when I move interstate, because it will allow me to brew AG again while piecing together a 3v.


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## Silo Ted (5/11/10)

I wish people would stop referring to 3V systems as 'traditional' <_< Pretty sure the Egyptians didnt have setups too similar.


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## argon (5/11/10)

Paxxy said:


> Sorry to bring up an old post, but I've just started looking on this forum a bit and BIAB sounds very easy and appealing. I currently use a bucket with a false bottom to mash and sparge.
> 
> However it seems that the BIAB method would let a lot of small grain particles into the beer. This is why people sparge so that the grain bed filters these out. I would think a meshed bag would be horribly inefficient at removing these particles. If I remember correctly the problem with getting small grain particles into the boil is that at above 85C the tannins within the grain are released into the liquid creating a horrible bitter taste. So is this a problem with BIAB or is the difference in taste fairly miniscule?







Paxxy said:


> Well a lot of people drink VB despite a horrible everything taste about it.
> 
> I guess having just started reading about BIAB this is what would scare me most about not doing a proper sparge. But as you've pointed out everyones doing it and noones complaining. I'd be interested from hearing from someone whos done both about how much extra tannin flavour if any there is in BIAB. A downgrade to BIAB sounds like a much easier way to brew.




My advice... keep reading about BIAB...especially here and if you like, even here that'll answer most of your questions.

As someone who has done many BIABs and now quite a few 3Vs i can tell you there is no detectable difference in the end product. No extra tannin flavours at all.

If anything my 3Vs are not as good as the BIABs.. only because i knew the BIAB system backwards and I'm still getting used to 3V


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## Thirsty Boy (5/11/10)

3v systems might not be "traditional" if you are willing to take your time frame all the way back to the sumarians...but certainly a system based on a vessel with a sieve like false bottom for liquid/solid separation - has been the dominant, if not virtually exclusive, paradigm for western brewing over the last half a milennium or more. And that qualifies as pretty damn traditional to me.

BIAB is the new kid on the block, it's doing pretty well at proving itself to be on equal terms with systems based around traditional techniques - but traditional it isn't; and the majority of other common home brew techniques kind of are.

Paxxy - biab probably does give you a few more tannins than the best run traditional systems. But generally not in a way that would be considered excessive. It certainly doesn't give you the sort of levels of tannins you can get by oversparging in a fly sparge system... You can't oversparge a BIAB, what with there not being a sparge step and all.


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